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I think often what happens is that some people come in late to these arguments, so they haven't had the time to come to see that some of their preconceptions are false or at least doesn't apply to the vast majority and pretty much no one here. What's worse is that they've believed these preconceptions longer than we have who started these arguments over a year ago, so it'll take that much longer for them to realize that calling people an "ist" simply doesn't apply here. Haters are not innocent either of these preconceptions and then the harping on individuals seems to never abate. It has, a great deal imo, but all it takes is one person to go off on a tangent to give the illusion that as a fandom we haven't progressed.

I think parts of the fandom has progressed a great deal, those who've taken part in honest discussion with curiosity and a willingness to understand what makes others think the way they do. In this case I believe the ST does pose a resemblance to the PT, as only as time goes by will emotions of all fans come to a place of calm where we can all take part in a discussion without the emotion and passion for the love or hate of this movie or series.

Now this isn't in reference to @Kylocity, @Rayjefury, or @RoyleRancor. For the most part, especially in the last few months they among others have been able to take part in some discussion minus the posturing for causes (the movie sucks or the movie's a masterpiece). I don't think we're changing anyone's minds, but we are coming to an understanding. We're slowly but surely peeling away preconceptions both sides have had about the other. Now I still very much dislike TLJ, but by talking to some of them, even those who harbor preconceptions, sometimes I get a glimpse of their logic as to why it works for them, even if it completely doesn't for me.

But it has gotten us to a point where we can discuss whether gender played a role without people immediately jumping to false conclusions. To me, I think that right there is progress. Maybe it's sad that I get to view that as progress, but nonetheless, it's better then where we were a year ago.

I partially agree with you. I think part of RJ's strategy to make us distrust Holdo was making her female, but it went beyond that. As stated having her in non military garb was another as it triggered some who look for realism. The truth is, on a star ship chased by a superior fleet, at least in number, if the dress ever became an issue (as in hindering her mobility in a fire fight from being boarded), they were lost anyways. I still think her wearing the dress was stupid, both in film as from a creative standpoint. However I think I've always understood subconsciously that RJ's decision there had a motive. I think the hair played the same role.

RJ counted on viewers to place attributes to her based on those characteristics to mistrust her or make a judgment about her. Her actions, to my mind were the hammer, but those creative choices were the anvil. People placed their own preconceptions on those attributes without considering it within the SW universe. In a GFFA, that hair could be natural, she could be a mixed species. Maybe she was caught by surprise and the dress was all she had, and no other uniforms on the ship fit her. Ok, the last theory is a stretch, I have no explanation for that other than maybe it was a cultural or religious significance. Not all humans would share the same beliefs, morals, ideas ect... maybe the way she was raised she was to face death looking her best, courting death in her ballroom gown, as though mocking it and showing no fear. There are all sorts of valid explanations within the SW universe. We saw the reasons in our world, identity politics and such.

Now I'm not saying all criticism of Holdo is based on that, but RJ tried this hardest to set her up so that she evoked those kinds of emotions. I also don't think it's entirely honest to say he didn't have ulterior motives, that it wasn't purely for the benefit of the film. If he can make people rethink their opinion on people with colored hair or specific females in general, then I think he would have seen having those give it some thought a success.

I stated before, I just don't think TLJ was the best place to introduce this. Holdo lacked screen time to the main characters who drove the main story, and it made her look more like a token diversity cast instead of truly thought invoking. Think GI Jane, where they were able to develop the idea to the point where viewers coming from opposing sides in their beliefs were made to meet in the middle. Never was there any mention of any of the possible reasons for her seemingly illogical decisions. We were left to guess, then she died, never answering any of the guess work. Some people can see that as genius, others see it as just divisive. It never allowed fans from opposing view points to meet and achieve an understanding.

As much as Luke is my primary issues with TLJ, issues like Holdo compound it needlessly, not because of the creative differences, but because of the lack of exposition because she quite simply wasn't a big enough part of the story to mine further and RJ was short on time. Though I believe some exposition could have been cleverly added without adding any more time to the movie. By my estimation, either RJ didn't want us fans to meet in the middle on this one, he didn't care if we did or didn't, or he's so absorbed in his own views that he didn't even realize how much this would bother some people and be another wedge in the fandom. I'm honestly not sure which, and there are nuances within those possibilities. In large part, I think that's where the too PC or SJW accusations come from.

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Would have been more interesting to see this play out with Ahkbar instead of Holdo. Holdo was unneeded addition. Ahkbar could have had a heroic death instead of a Red Shirt death. Would have played out more like Ahkbar evaluating and testing Poe by deliberately holding back information from him.

But that sort of contradicts TFA Poe who compliments Leia at the beginning of the movie, "She is royalty." And then is pretty much a loyal soldier and listens to Leia for most of the movie (So apparently he didn't have a problem with Women Authority then). He does have a 'daring side' which is referred to in the TFA Opening Crawl, so apparently Leia has no problem with that since she specifically sent him to Jakku at the start of the movie to look for the missing piece to Luke.

Again, this goes back to my conclusion that TLJ is a great standalone movie if you don't think of the 7 Saga movies before it. It has it's own narrative, sort of takes the characters wherever it wants to and doesn't really care about the previous narrative. But if you watch it as part of the Saga, it really doesn't work because there are so many contradictions with the big picture narrative.

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I think that, yes, RJ introduced Poe’s flaw as a new aspect in his character that was not presented in TFA, but I don’t think that he contradicted anything about the character or the narrative already established... Poe appeared in TFA as a loyal yet daring young man, characteristics that do not really contradict his more rash decision making in TLJ. We just do not see enough of him in TFA to have a complete idea about his personality, and that’s the reason why RJ could present something completely new about him. It is easy to turn elements such as cockiness and audacity ( very evident in TFA) into insubordination and risk taking one we put the character under a rather specific sort of pressure. It was perfectly believable.

Again, this goes back to my conclusion that TLJ is a great standalone movie if you don't think of the 7 Saga movies before it. It has it's own narrative, sort of takes the characters wherever it wants to and doesn't really care about the previous narrative. But if you watch it as part of the Saga, it really doesn't work because there are so many contradictions with the big picture narrative.

Would have been more interesting to see this play out with Ahkbar instead of Holdo. Holdo was unneeded addition. Ahkbar could have had a heroic death instead of a Red Shirt death. Would have played out more like Ahkbar evaluating and testing Poe by deliberately holding back information from him.

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Or invent some way for Akbar to have been disabled too but recover in time to do the Hyperspace attack together.

I think that, yes, RJ introduced Poe’s flaw as a new aspect in his character that was not presented in TFA, but I don’t think that he contradicted anything about the character or the narrative already established... Poe appeared in TFA as a loyal yet daring young man, characteristics that do not really contradict his more rash decision making in TLJ. We just do not see enough of him in TFA to have a complete idea about his personality, and that’s the reason why RJ could present something completely new about him. It is easy to turn elements such as cockiness and audacity ( very evident in TFA) into insubordination and risk taking one we put the character under a rather specific sort of pressure. It was perfectly believable.

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Sorry, but I think RJ changed his character cause he needed something to drive the drama between the Resistance in TLJ, just as he radically changed Luke's character to drive the drama between Rey/Kylo Ren. Just like he changed Hux's character (made him more buffoonish and comical) to drive the drama with the Resistance during the chase. How would you have felt if Vader's character was suddenly different in ESB to drive the drama? Or Luke? Leia? Han? Those characters evolved through the 3 movies, but they didn't change to the point where it didn't make sense with the previous narrative. I go back and look at all their arcs in the OT and nothing sticks out radically changed in terms of the characters just for the short-term drama of the movie.

That sort of sums up TLJ and why it's a great standalone movie and not a great Saga movie. If you don't know about the characters from before, then their personalities in the movies actually work well in the context of THAT plot. (The Holdo/Poe confronation makes sense if you just watch Episode 8) But if you take a step back and see the decisions they make compared to the other movies, the overall narrative doesn't really work.

Would have been more interesting to see this play out with Ahkbar instead of Holdo. Holdo was unneeded addition. Ahkbar could have had a heroic death instead of a Red Shirt death. Would have played out more like Ahkbar evaluating and testing Poe by deliberately holding back information from him.

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I don’t think that would have worked... ahkbar is loyal to the cause, which is well known by all, and the point in TLJ was to present Holdo’s was someone suspicious, either not good or wrong.

Also, having a 70’s retro fish head attempting to emote or do any kind of subtle acting would have been rather laughable IMHO.

Sorry, but I think RJ changed his character cause he needed something to drive the drama between the Resistance in TLJ, just as he radically changed Luke's character to drive the drama between Rey/Kylo Ren.

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I respectfully disagree. RJ offered evolutions of these characters, which is different from saying he “changed” the characters. With Hux, he just used him for comedy, which is not a change of character, but rather a change of the use of a character in a story.

How would you have felt if Vader's character was suddenly different in ESB to drive the drama? Or Luke? Leia? Han? Those characters evolved through the 3 movies, but they didn't change to the point where it didn't make sense with the previous narrative.

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Vader had zero character development in ANH and ESB. Leia lost aggression in ESB and became gentler, Luke showed a whininess and negativity in ESB that evolved from his more childish teenage frustration in ANH. These characters “evolved”. The ST characters are evolving too in a manner perhaps many were not expecting, but that it is, I repeat, consistent, exactly as in the OT.

I respectfully disagree. RJ offered evolutions of these characters, which is different from saying he “changed” the characters. With Hux, he just used him for comedy, which is not a change of character, but rather a change of the use of a character in a story.
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So all of the sudden Hux got bit by the comedy bug between TFA and TLJ?

Vader had zero character development in ANH and ESB. Leia lost aggression in ESB and became gentler, Luke showed a whininess and negativity in ESB that evolved from his more childish teenage frustration in ANH. These characters “evolved”. The ST characters are evolving too in a manner perhaps many were not expecting, but that it is, I repeat, consistent, exactly as in the OT.

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Nothing in Vader's demeanor/personality changes from ANH to ROTJ, as they explore the character more in ESB and ROTJ. Leia was just as aggressive in ESB as she pretty much fights with Han the whole movie! Yoda even says about Luke that he 'watched this one' so he was perfectly describing him in that respect from ANH to ESB.

I think that Rey and Kylo Ren have evolved in the ST as you notice I haven't mentioned them once in our conversations. I think Kylo Ren is the most interesting character of the ST. Rey is portrayed very well by Daisy Ridley, but her character is not as interesting as Kylo Ren. Poe, Luke and Hux were all radically changed to drive the drama in TLJ, IMO.

Further Mon Mothma at one point was a politician, she was a Senator but withdrew from the Senate at the birth of the Rebellion. She was the Rebellion's leader and, by therefore, part of the military. She was not a civilian again until she becomes the Chancellor of the New Republic.

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That's not accurate. You can lead the military and still be a civilian. That is how our very own armed forces are set up. The Commander in Chief is a civilian.

Poe, Luke and Hux were all radically changed to drive the drama in TLJ, IMO.

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Poe and Hux were inconsequential characters in TFA. Poe developed in TLJ, Hux didn’t, he was used mainly for comedy. He was not changed as a character as there was nothing to change... The only thing that was changed was how he was used in the narrative.

Luke’s character transformation from hopeful to desillutioned was well explained and documented in TLJ. Luke is a fallen hero who managed to find his way back to heroism. That’s an interesting trajectory for a character. I just don’t get why so many reject this.

Luke’s character transformation from hopeful to desillutioned was well explained and documented in TLJ. Luke is a fallen hero who managed to find his way back to heroism. That’s an interesting trajectory for a character. I just don’t get why so many reject this.

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If this were executed better, I would agree. But to have Luke go through the OT and be the ONLY one who thinks he can redeem the biggest mass murderer in the galaxy, yet has a moment where he wants to kill his nephew didn't jive with me. He even says to Leia at the end that some people can never be saved (referring to Ben Solo), yet that wasn't his feelings in the OT toward Vader? OT Luke would do ANYTHING for his friends as that was the theme, but he bails on them when the First Order takes over in the ST? As Mark Hamill said when he disagreed with Rian Johnson's character arc for Luke, "He would have regrouped and made a plan B." (I am paraphrasing). And just look at the way he treats Chewy in TLJ, as it's like he doesn't even know him? Chewy is literally by himself the whole movie, hanging out with the Porgs, and Luke doesn't talk to one of his best friends, the wookie who saved him on the Death Star Trench Run? The Wookie that saved him on Cloud City? Nope, just Chewy is hanging with the Porgs for first half of the movie waiting to be Rey's Uber Driver. That is my point about bad execution, as I would have no problem with Luke having a crisis of faith in the Jedi, but I do have a problem with the way he dissed Han, Leia and Chewy when it all went down.

Ackbar was always a 'red shirt'. He's just an extra with a speaking part. He could have died in ROTJ and nobody would have cared. TLJ is the first time we've seen him since then. He's barely any more significant than Lobot.

Ackbar was always a 'red shirt'. He's just an extra with a speaking part. He could have died in ROTJ and nobody would have cared. TLJ is the first time we've seen him since then. He's barely any more significant than Lobot.

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He had one of the greatest lines in the franchise, "It's a TRAP!!!!!!" So he is memorable for that reason alone.

He had one of the greatest lines in the franchise, "It's a TRAP!!!!!!" So he is memorable for that reason alone.

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Largely thanks to it becoming a meme more than anything I'd say.

Besides, it hardly makes him worthy of some grand heroic final moment of screen time. It was still a 'bit part' nonetheless. He's still something of a background character, and far from important by the time of TLJ in the minds of the majority of the movie going audience.

We were saying that line LONG before the internet existed back in the 80's. 'It's a Trap' is a pretty iconic saying. In saying that, I don't subscribe to the theory that Ackbar needed a heroic death, in fact I wish they didn't have him in the new movies. They have pretty much ruined any OT character, so the less they used of them, the better.

... Rian should have never done that. Bad guys should be scary and prepared all the time. Making them jokes isn't very useful for their reputations.

I still think Hux will be a big player in IX for the villains role, but the set up for that isn't that great anymore.

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Hux being used for comedy in TLJ does not mean he won’t be used differently in IX. Rian simply made us look at Hux from a different angle because it suited his story. He didn’t transform the character. As for now, JJ could devise a completely serious arc for him and still be consistent. We don’t always have to look at characters with the same eyes, much less if they are fairly underdeveloped and secondary.

We were saying that line LONG before the internet existed back in the 80's. 'It's a Trap' is a pretty iconic saying. In saying that, I don't subscribe to the theory that Ackbar needed a heroic death, in fact I wish they didn't have him in the new movies. They have pretty much ruined any OT character, so the less they used of them, the better.

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Ackbar is not just a redshirt, redshirts are low rank and disposable, Ackbar's an admiral, war hero, leader of probably the biggest military victory in recent memory. Even if the EU only exists in legends, Ackbar's development in there should not be cast aside, especially when Disney freely uses parts created by the EU now legends as fact. While Mon Mothma is the civilian leader, Ackbar is the military one. When they use things such at Dathomir and it's witches ect... then I think it's disingenuous to strike back at that same fandom for believing that Ackbar is a hero deserving his own light.

Ackbar had his own story, probably an interesting one, that has largely gone untold other than in bits when he crosses paths with heroes that are focused on by the current story being told. I for one wouldn't mind seeing or reading more about Ackbar, his rise to the rank of Admiral within the Rebel Alliance during Imperial rule and what he did in the 30 some odd years between the OT and the ST. What happens in TLJ reduces that interest a great deal however. I think what I liked the most about Ackbar was that it gave the universe depth, because even if we knew the heroes of the OT were Luke, Leia and Han, people like Ackbar were evidence that heroes existed elsewhere, it gave the universe a sense of scale... it made some world building. In a series so far that lacks in that area, killing off Ackbar was a horrible decision. It makes me wonder if RJ and his creative and writing team even knows how to world build at all. RJ used Ackbar's death for a cheap emotional response that gets lost in Mary Poppins Leia and the drama of the story he's actually telling. It was a useless death, a redshirt death for someone RJ seems to have had little to no regard for and treated as such.

Now I'm not saying he couldn't have died, but they could have done something more memorable than what he got in TLJ, especially when there was a role that he fit perfectly. We don't know a heck of a lot about Ackbar, his military mind could have been far more conservative than Poe's and they could still have had a disagreement in direction and military decisions. I think having an obvious alien to work off of would have been an amazing show of diversity within the SW world, instead of making both the FO and Resistance seem to be dominated by humans in charge. It was a missed opportunity on so many front imo. In itself it didn't ruin the movie, and reasons for not having him in could have been budgetary (CGI would have had to been used if he had an extended part mimicking Holdo's) but it certainly didn't elevate it in any way either.

Edit: Furthermore, I think Ackbar opened up an opportunity to add some commentary about diversity without it feeling so manufactured or on the nose. It could have been woven into the story much more organically using Ackbar instead of having Rose tell us about it. Think about it, Ackbar was a character custom built to challenge people's views on diversity, especially the trans community, but created way back in the 80s well before such issues were politicized. It would not have felt contrived in the least as fish are known to change gender, scientifically proven, when the need arises. There was a story to be told there that could have been deep and profound as well as educational on tolerance and diversity, that could have reached more people done right then any new character they introduce moving forward.

Rian simply made us look at Hux from a different angle because it suited his story. He didn’t transform the character.

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I have to disagree, of course he transformed Hux's character, even this much, so he was unrecognizable to the audience- that's the problem. Lord and Miller got fired because their Han didn't feel like Han; only because Rian Johnson did it to a secondary character doesn't make it okay.

Gleeson fought hard to have Johnson include the blaster scene from the Throne Room- the only scene that gives us a glimpse of TFA's Hux, I would say. I take from that, Gleeson knew Rian's idea of Hux was clashing with the one JJ and Gleeson had developed.