So, what will get you to not trust or defend this POTUS? I know some will never speak an ill word of the POTUS, but lets be honest, why do you think that is?

Obama knew troubles of Obamacare website back in March. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/19/obama-administration-warned-about-health-care-website-in-march-report-says/)

USAF-Controller

11-19-2013, 12:47 PM

His administration was made aware. You and I both know that that doesn't mean that the President was aware.

imported_WILDJOKER5

11-19-2013, 12:50 PM

His administration was made aware. You and I both know that that doesn't mean that the President was aware.

...ok....

I guess when no one can find him when there is a problem, its hard inform him of problems. Maybe they should have looked at the golf course?

Rusty Jones

11-19-2013, 01:51 PM

So, what will get you to not trust or defend this POTUS? I know some will never speak an ill word of the POTUS, but lets be honest, why do you think that is?

Obama knew troubles of Obamacare website back in March. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/11/19/obama-administration-warned-about-health-care-website-in-march-report-says/)

Gee, do you really expect to convince a non-hater to hate Obama with a Fox News article?

TJMAC77SP

11-19-2013, 02:18 PM

Gee, do you really expect to convince a non-hater to hate Obama with a Fox News article?

Where was hate mentioned? Would another source (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/obamacare-report_n_4299919.html) help? This is a basic question about trust.

imported_WILDJOKER5

11-19-2013, 06:05 PM

Gee, do you really expect to convince a non-hater to hate Obama with a Fox News article?

Nah, I was hoping to get someone out of the state of being sheeple.

kool-aid

11-19-2013, 11:02 PM

Where was hate mentioned? Would another source (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/obamacare-report_n_4299919.html) help? This is a basic question about trust.

Hate is always involved if you criticize the moron in chief. And I'll give you one guess why it's considered hateful to point out his faults...

USAF-Controller

11-20-2013, 03:37 AM

...ok....

I guess when no one can find him when there is a problem, its hard inform him of problems. Maybe they should have looked at the golf course?

This is why Fox News makes people stupid. President Obama has spent 1/3 the vacation days of Bush at this time in his presidency and 1/2 the days of Reagan. Golfing is included in vacation time.

USAF-Controller

11-20-2013, 03:38 AM

Hate is always involved if you criticize the moron in chief. And I'll give you one guess why it's considered hateful to point out his faults...

It's fine to point out the President's faults, as long as they're actually true. In the case of the OP's post, it was not necessarily true.

imnohero

11-20-2013, 04:54 AM

The president is like the QB or the Pitcher, he always get the credit or the blame. Whether or not he actually had anything to do with what happened.

So back in April, Obama was briefed about "risks" to the website rollout. And, it went badly so he gets the blame. As if that matters at all, except to the people that already dislike him. This is pretty much a non-event as far as changing people's opinions about the president.

AJBIGJ

11-20-2013, 06:03 AM

The president is like the QB or the Pitcher, he always get the credit or the blame. Whether or not he actually had anything to do with what happened.

So back in April, Obama was briefed about "risks" to the website rollout. And, it went badly so he gets the blame. As if that matters at all, except to the people that already dislike him. This is pretty much a non-event as far as changing people's opinions about the president.

I definitely agree, especially with the final comment. However I will state he (or at least his Administration) seems to go out of their way towards stating that he was "unaware" of many of these "scandals" (whether or not we agree that these are in fact scandals). Essentially it seems to be that the modus operandi for this presidency is that ignorance is preferable to inconsistency (with his 2008 platform). Nothing especially unnatural in the world of politics, but interesting nonetheless.

TJMAC77SP

11-20-2013, 02:34 PM

This is why Fox News makes people stupid. President Obama has spent 1/3 the vacation days of Bush at this time in his presidency and 1/2 the days of Reagan. Golfing is included in vacation time.

Well, I am not sure it is Fox News that makes people stupid. I think people are just stupid to start with.

Perhaps this (http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/whos-counting-at-the-white-house-mark-knoller-is/indexp2.php) is a more fair source.

It is silly to count days away from the White House as a 'vacation' without exception. Is a round of golf at Andrews AFB a vacation since the night is spent back at the WH? Is a day at your private property hosting a foreign leader a vacation day?

TJMAC77SP

11-20-2013, 02:36 PM

The president is like the QB or the Pitcher, he always get the credit or the blame. Whether or not he actually had anything to do with what happened.

So back in April, Obama was briefed about "risks" to the website rollout. And, it went badly so he gets the blame. As if that matters at all, except to the people that already dislike him. This is pretty much a non-event as far as changing people's opinions about the president.

It is non event to the people who already like him. To the millions expecting an actual rollout of the ACA I would say it is a real event.

BTW: I have no real dog in the fight (so far) as I use Tricare.

imported_WILDJOKER5

11-20-2013, 05:01 PM

This is why Fox News makes people stupid. President Obama has spent 1/3 the vacation days of Bush at this time in his presidency and 1/2 the days of Reagan. Golfing is included in vacation time.

I didnt mention how much time he was on vacation, nor did I say I watch Fox. If hes not doing those things, then why has he met so little with his administration and where is he during important times like Bengahzi? Why is it that he cant be told about these big item issues and only finds out when the news reports on them?

imported_WILDJOKER5

11-20-2013, 05:16 PM

It's fine to point out the President's faults, as long as they're actually true. In the case of the OP's post, it was not necessarily true.

Thats a pretty nieve assumption. Why is it that everything that goes wrong or that his administrastion knew about, he was never briefed? But he knows what happens with Gates being arrested, and knows about the TM case, but what really matters, he is left in the dark? He seems to be totally shielded with this "only my administration knew...." and some people seem to eat it up. He didnt know about IRS targeting TEA party, Bengahzi, Fast and Furious, Obamacare website and the fact that you cant actually keep your doctor. I mean seriously, if your kid or troop came up to you and said these exact same excuses, you would hold them accountable.

Bunch

11-20-2013, 05:53 PM

Thats a pretty nieve assumption. Why is it that everything that goes wrong or that his administrastion knew about, he was never briefed? But he knows what happens with Gates being arrested, and knows about the TM case, but what really matters, he is left in the dark? He seems to be totally shielded with this "only my administration knew...." and some people seem to eat it up. He didnt know about IRS targeting TEA party, Bengahzi, Fast and Furious, Obamacare website and the fact that you cant actually keep your doctor. I mean seriously, if your kid or troop came up to you and said these exact same excuses, you would hold them accountable.

WJ5 do you really think that if they had advance warning to prevent something to become a scandal wouldn't they worked to fix it? Don't you think its kind on their interest do so?

If you haven't watched the documentary "The President Gatekeepers" from Discovery I highly suggest you do. It puts in great perspective how previous President's Chief of Staff work to maintain the President informed and all the issues accross the world and in the US and what type of information is presented to the President on any given day.

Don't you think Bush would have been more cautious about the Iraq-WMD issue if he known then whats its known now? Don't you think he would have stop 9-11 happening is he had concrete warnings? I mean I can go on and on with each President in history...

I understand you don't like President Obama but its like you want him to be God ...all knowing all powerful. To who else you hold in such a high standard? Did you held Bush 1 or 2 to that standard when they were Presidents?... because they in fact did a lot of lying. Bush 2 did a lot of lying that cause hundreds of thousands of deaths til this very day.

Anyways...there is no politician in the world that want to have a scandal, they live their entire lives preventing scandals from happening and the fact that they happen it shows you how little control just one human being can have over any given process or organization and after all they are humans.

Throughout my career I've seen Commanders get fired due to actions his troops commited even if they were or weren't aware of them. It happens a lot and in politcs we have the same recourse its called ELECTIONS. Now if your side can't even muster to bring a candidate that can win an election that's not the President's fault.

USAF-Controller

11-20-2013, 06:02 PM

Well, I am not sure it is Fox News that makes people stupid. I think people are just stupid to start with.

Perhaps this (http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/whos-counting-at-the-white-house-mark-knoller-is/indexp2.php) is a more fair source.

It is silly to count days away from the White House as a 'vacation' without exception. Is a round of golf at Andrews AFB a vacation since the night is spent back at the WH? Is a day at your private property hosting a foreign leader a vacation day?

To be honest, I have no idea what a typical "vacation day" is like for a President.

I didnt mention how much time he was on vacation, nor did I say I watch Fox. If hes not doing those things, then why has he met so little with his administration and where is he during important times like Bengahzi? Why is it that he cant be told about these big item issues and only finds out when the news reports on them?

If you're harping about Bengahzi then you're clearly a Fox News watcher since theyre the only ones who saw a scandal by the President there.

WJ5 do you really think that if they had advance warning to prevent something to become a scandal wouldn't they worked to fix it? Don't you think its kind on their interest do so?

If you haven't watched the documentary "The President Gatekeepers" from Discovery I highly suggest you do. It puts in great perspective how previous President's Chief of Staff work to maintain the President informed and all the issues accross the world and in the US and what type of information is presented to the President on any given day.

Don't you think Bush would have been more cautious about the Iraq-WMD issue if he known then whats its known now? Don't you think he would have stop 9-11 happening is he had concrete warnings? I mean I can go on and on with each President in history...

I understand you don't like President Obama but its like you want him to be God ...all knowing all powerful. To who else you hold in such a high standard? Did you held Bush 1 or 2 to that standard when they were Presidents?... because they in fact did a lot of lying. Bush 2 did a lot of lying that cause hundreds of thousands of deaths til this very day.

Anyways...there is no politician in the world that want to have a scandal, they live their entire lives preventing scandals from happening and the fact that they happen it shows you how little control just one human being can have over any given process or organization and after all they are humans.

Throughout my career I've seen Commanders get fired due to actions his troops commited even if they were or weren't aware of them. It happens a lot and in politcs we have the same recourse its called ELECTIONS. Now if your side can't even muster to bring a candidate that can win an election that's not the President's fault.

That is a FAR morwe thorough response that I could have given. It perfectly says it in my opinion.

imported_WILDJOKER5

11-20-2013, 06:24 PM

WJ5 do you really think that if they had advance warning to prevent something to become a scandal wouldn't they worked to fix it? Don't you think its kind on their interest do so?

If you haven't watched the documentary "The President Gatekeepers" from Discovery I highly suggest you do. It puts in great perspective how previous President's Chief of Staff work to maintain the President informed and all the issues accross the world and in the US and what type of information is presented to the President on any given day.Thanks for the suggestion.

Don't you think Bush would have been more cautious about the Iraq-WMD issue if he known then whats its known now? Don't you think he would have stop 9-11 happening is he had concrete warnings? I mean I can go on and on with each President in history...Iraq? Really? You dont think they ever had WMDs? Not saying it was our responsibility to go in and attack, but where do you think Syria got its stock pile of WMDs?

As far as 9/11, they did have warning, and the knowledge, but couldnt piece it all together.

I understand you don't like President Obama but its like you want him to be God ...all knowing all powerful. To who else you hold in such a high standard? Did you held Bush 1 or 2 to that standard when they were Presidents?... because they in fact did a lot of lying. Bush 2 did a lot of lying that cause hundreds of thousands of deaths til this very day.Lets see, Bush didnt "know" about actions of outside organizations. Obama is in the dark about his own administrations and laws that are spelled out as he signed and had passed. Do I hold the Bush 1 and 2 up like I expect from Obama? Sure. I call out the BS of Bush letting the gas prices sore when Clinton worked hard to keep the price of gas under $1.50.

Anyways...there is no politician in the world that want to have a scandal, they live their entire lives preventing scandals from happening and the fact that they happen it shows you how little control just one human being can have over any given process or organization and after all they are humans.
They try to get away with what ever they can till they get caught. Are you telling me Obama didnt know about the NSA spying on American public and US allies?

Throughout my career I've seen Commanders get fired due to actions his troops commited even if they were or weren't aware of them. It happens a lot and in politcs we have the same recourse its called ELECTIONS. Now if your side can't even muster to bring a candidate that can win an election that's not the President's fault.
Its one thing for a Col or Gen getting fired for a drug ring happening on their instalation, its another when the boss is telling them to make money anyway possible and they happen to turn to selling drugs on base.

imported_WILDJOKER5

11-20-2013, 06:39 PM

If you're harping about Bengahzi then you're clearly a Fox News watcher since theyre the only ones who saw a scandal by the President there.

Negative. Anyone not drinking the cool-aid sees this as a big deal. Being absent for 8 hours while your embassy is attacked and/or denying back up even when they were calling for help for hours is not something to be ignored. I dont see how someone can say this isnt a "scandal" (felony).

USAF-Controller

11-20-2013, 06:57 PM

Negative. Anyone not drinking the cool-aid sees this as a big deal. Being absent for 8 hours while your embassy is attacked and/or denying back up even when they were calling for help for hours is not something to be ignored. I dont see how someone can say this isnt a "scandal" (felony).

I disagree. I think it's only a big deal to the right wing seeking to discredit out President. It's already come out thet back up wasnt denied at all. Im I recall correctly 60 minutes even issued an apology for starting the whole "scandal" thing because it turns out their source lied.

Juggs

11-20-2013, 08:11 PM

It's like the commander. He doesn't want to hear bad news so he only gets good news.

Bunch

11-21-2013, 04:05 AM

It's like the commander. He doesn't want to hear bad news so he only gets good news.

Or people are just afraid to present the bad news. That kind of happen a lot, specially if you are surrounded by YES man or women.

Juggs

11-21-2013, 12:54 PM

Or people are just afraid to present the bad news. That kind of happen a lot, specially if you are surrounded by YES man or women.

These days AF management likes to surround itself with like minded individuals. So does the president.

efmbman

11-21-2013, 12:57 PM

It's like the commander. He doesn't want to hear bad news so he only gets good news.

Or people are just afraid to present the bad news. That kind of happen a lot, specially if you are surrounded by YES man or women.

To take this a bit further... it could also be that people do not like the reaction of the boss when the boss is presented bad news. That leads to sugar-coating information or leaving out information crucial to the decision making process. I have had bosses in the past that would literally break things when given bad news. I knew the anger was not at the messenger (me) but at the situation. Bad news, unlike wine, does not get better with age.

There are those that feel they should "protect" their boss from some information and that action is viewed as taking care of the boss by providing a layer of insulation. Good intentions perhaps, but the outcome is almost always the opposite effect - damage to the boss. My worst job was when I was a staff NCO of a Medical Brigade. I got the job because the COL chief of staff told me I knew how to say "no" and I could deliver bad news. Man, I hated that job!

I never expect a president to know everything and do everything - that is unrealistic. I do, however, expect the president to appoint advisors that can employ leadership, make sound decisions, and realize that their ultimate loyalty is to the nation and not the man in the oval office.

Juggs

11-21-2013, 01:02 PM

I was always up front and honest with our CC and Sup. If I couldn't make it happen i said we can't do it. If I said our shit was broke and we have no way of fixing it, I told him that. They didn't like it but I wasn't about to lie then have burn me later.

TJMAC77SP

11-21-2013, 01:33 PM

WJ5 do you really think that if they had advance warning to prevent something to become a scandal wouldn't they worked to fix it? Don't you think its kind on their interest do so?

If you haven't watched the documentary "The President Gatekeepers" from Discovery I highly suggest you do. It puts in great perspective how previous President's Chief of Staff work to maintain the President informed and all the issues accross the world and in the US and what type of information is presented to the President on any given day.

Don't you think Bush would have been more cautious about the Iraq-WMD issue if he known then whats its known now? Don't you think he would have stop 9-11 happening is he had concrete warnings? I mean I can go on and on with each President in history...

I understand you don't like President Obama but its like you want him to be God ...all knowing all powerful. To who else you hold in such a high standard? Did you held Bush 1 or 2 to that standard when they were Presidents?... because they in fact did a lot of lying. Bush 2 did a lot of lying that cause hundreds of thousands of deaths til this very day.

Anyways...there is no politician in the world that want to have a scandal, they live their entire lives preventing scandals from happening and the fact that they happen it shows you how little control just one human being can have over any given process or organization and after all they are humans.

Throughout my career I've seen Commanders get fired due to actions his troops commited even if they were or weren't aware of them. It happens a lot and in politcs we have the same recourse its called ELECTIONS. Now if your side can't even muster to bring a candidate that can win an election that's not the President's fault.

Well reasoned response.

Juggs

11-21-2013, 01:46 PM

I AM the Metamucil of life. I make shit happen!!!

AFcynic

11-21-2013, 03:06 PM

Why does anyone here respond to WJ5? Don't waste your time responding to someone who doesn't know the difference between soar/sore, or Kool-Aid/cool-aid.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" - George W. Bush

Bunch

11-21-2013, 06:39 PM

Why does anyone here respond to WJ5? Don't waste your time responding to someone who doesn't know the difference between soar/sore, or Kool-Aid/cool-aid.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" - George W. Bush

I like to sprinkle @WILDJOKERS5 with some progressive/liberal thinking every now and then...who knows!!? maybe I turn him to my side. Even Darth Vader so the light at the end of the tunnel...

imported_WILDJOKER5

11-21-2013, 06:47 PM

Why does anyone here respond to WJ5? Don't waste your time responding to someone who doesn't know the difference between soar/sore, or Kool-Aid/cool-aid.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" - George W. Bush

I can understand youre point of ignoring facts and focusing on spell errs when you aint got notin to counter them. But hey, if you want too ignor what has been presented buy focussing on typing misstakes, I guess we no you have nuttin too ofer.

imported_WILDJOKER5

11-21-2013, 06:53 PM

I like to sprinkle @WILDJOKERS5 with some progressive/liberal thinking every now and then...who knows!!? maybe I turn him to my side. Even Darth Vader so the light at the end of the tunnel...

Riiiiiight. LOL. Sad part is, you actually think I am on the GOP side. You dont even realize both GOP and Dem are one in the same. You believe the way your side makes laws is superior to the other side because of the morals and values you believe in. You think you are more just to put in laws to guarentee homosexual marraige is right while the GOP believes in banning it is right. The part you guys fail to realize is that you are both giving up and individual right and allowing the government to have a say in whether or not you can marry the person you love. Its lazyness to believe "fixing" the marriage code is the way to "fix" the tax code, hospital patients rights code, death gratuity code, and so on. Why fix those issues when we can just give government MORE control and lump them all together right?

Bunch

11-22-2013, 02:26 AM

Riiiiiight. LOL. Sad part is, you actually think I am on the GOP side. You dont even realize both GOP and Dem are one in the same. You believe the way your side makes laws is superior to the other side because of the morals and values you believe in. You think you are more just to put in laws to guarentee homosexual marraige is right while the GOP believes in banning it is right. The part you guys fail to realize is that you are both giving up and individual right and allowing the government to have a say in whether or not you can marry the person you love. Its lazyness to believe "fixing" the marriage code is the way to "fix" the tax code, hospital patients rights code, death gratuity code, and so on. Why fix those issues when we can just give government MORE control and lump them all together right?

Ohhhh WJ5....

I don't know which side you are on...but I'm sure its definately not mine...

imported_WILDJOKER5

12-02-2013, 04:17 PM

Ohhhh WJ5....

I don't know which side you are on...but I'm sure its definately not mine...

If you are FOR more government control of everyone's lives, youre right, I am not on your side. That goes for the people claiming to be GOP and wanting more regulations on morality as well.

In the end, Darth Vader turned away from the dark side and became a Libertarian.

Could Bunch be the reincarnation of the late Joe Bonham?

Negative. Bunch hasn't turned this into a Christian bashing thread.

AJBIGJ

12-16-2013, 01:07 PM

Negative. Bunch hasn't turned this into a Christian bashing thread.

Yeah, I dispensed with any such notion early on as well. JB fairly heavily embraced the term "liberal" over "progressive", with Bunch the precise opposite is the case. Many do not understand that there is even a dichotomy there, it becomes much more clear when they are called upon to support their individual philosophies. In many ways, equating "modern liberals" to " progressives" is akin to equating "conservatives" and "libertarians".

Several topics seemed to draw out JB more than others, other than simple "conservative bashing". His militant atheism (I would say, psychologically, his anti-Christian zealotry) was certainly among them. However, he had a much greater tendency to be outspoken about foreign interventionism as well, and he loved to engage in prolonged discussions in support of his positions about economics.

It's kind of strange to speak of JB in the "past tense", but I admit I miss many of the discussions we used to have that more-than-likely caused the MTF collective eyes to glaze over. There's a reason one of my short list of MTF friends list is labeled "Banned", despite the sharp contrast in our individual ideologies.

Stalwart

12-16-2013, 01:10 PM

A militant atheist is just as annoying as a militant <insert religion>.

I have respect for what ever someone wants to believe, but grow irritated at militant over the top efforts to convert me to any particular way of thinking.

AJBIGJ

12-16-2013, 01:24 PM

A militant atheist is just as annoying as a militant <insert religion>.

I have respect for what ever someone wants to believe, but grow irritated at militant over the top efforts to convert me to any particular way of thinking.
It was certainly his roughest edge, and I feel some partially responsible for him getting out of control. I was conspicuously absent when JB's spun out of control (surprise surprise, I didn't visit the MTFs very much while sitting in the middle of the Indian Ocean) as I did tend to steer him away from letting it steer into open hostility on occasion. Of course, he was and is his own man and had the ultimate control over what actions he took in the MTF and with the forum admins. I will say it became quite a shock when I returned to all the forum turmoil that had occurred during my involuntary sabbatical.

Stalwart

12-16-2013, 01:35 PM

I don't mean to say I thought JB was overly annoying, I have a couple of friends (non-MTF) two are militant atheists and a few are very vocal about their chosen religion. I have respect for their opinions, but start to tune out when it becomes repetitive rhetoric.

AJBIGJ

12-16-2013, 02:41 PM

I don't mean to say I thought JB was overly annoying, I have a couple of friends (non-MTF) two are militant atheists and a few are very vocal about their chosen religion. I have respect for their opinions, but start to tune out when it becomes repetitive rhetoric.

Pretty easy to do, unfortunately, I think psychologically they feel so turned-off by what I believe are significantly negative experiences with certain individual Christians that they feel the attitude is justified and not hypocritical in the least.