Verlander and Cabrera beat us, but our dead weight (Rios and Dunn) did everything possible to help them.

dwitt76

06-04-2011, 09:30 PM

Fireworks aren't the same after losses

Jollyroger2

06-04-2011, 09:31 PM

Verlander is very good but come on. The Sox offense has stunk for most of this season. If it was half as good as advertised this team would be much better.

I also am not buying the "Dunn and Rios are trying" stuff. The way Dunn is just waving at pitches and the way Rios lazied his way on the basepath tonight shows otherwise.

Viva Medias B's

06-04-2011, 09:31 PM

Fireworks aren't the same after losses

Nor is the postgame beer.

DirtySox

06-04-2011, 09:31 PM

Sucks that we lost, but tonight's game was a fine watch. Get Penny tomorrow.

Zakath

06-04-2011, 09:31 PM

This is a legitimate cap-tipper. Verlander is a ****ing good pitcher.

And we had him on the ropes.

He may get the win, but it was not a dominant performance. He survived long enough to be the pitcher of record when Cabrera hit a mistake.

Now the Tigers get to see our best pitcher.

HaroMaster87

06-04-2011, 09:31 PM

yup...gave that one away...i still say you gotta walk cabrera. Make martinez beat you...

JB98

06-04-2011, 09:32 PM

I didn't get a chance to see the game, but why did we pitch to Cabrera in the 8th with two outs and first base open?

Because Martinez was on deck, and Cabrera had looked bad in this game up until that point.

Pitching to Cabrera worked fine last night. I agree with the move. Crain just made a bad pitch.

SOXSINCE'70

06-04-2011, 09:32 PM

Fireworks aren't the same after losses

After a loss, I can;t even stay in the park for Fireworks.
I'm too pissed off. Kinda like tonight.:angry:

ChiSoxGal85

06-04-2011, 09:32 PM

Verlander has had the Sox figured out for a long time, so I had my doubts about this game even before it started. And it looked pretty ugly the first 4 innings, but the Sox finally got to him. That got my hopes up; maybe I should know better.

How disappointing to be one pitch from getting out of the 8th with no damage. Then Cabrera hits it out of the park. Sigh. Nice HR by Gordon, anyway.

Tomorrow is another game.

HaroMaster87

06-04-2011, 09:32 PM

Now the Tigers get to see our best pitcher.

Humber is pitching tomorrow??

JB98

06-04-2011, 09:32 PM

yup...gave that one away...i still say you gotta walk cabrera. Make martinez beat you...

Could not disagree more.

SOXSINCE'70

06-04-2011, 09:33 PM

Make martinez beat you...

He can and he has. Many times.:(:

LongLiveFisk

06-04-2011, 09:33 PM

Let's win the series tomorrow.

That's what I said. Do that and it will take a little of the sting out of tonight's loss.

samurai_sox

06-04-2011, 09:34 PM

Is it just me or did it seem like an usually high number of Tigers fans at the park tonight, I could hear it through the tv.

How disappointing to be one pitch from getting out of the 8th with no damage. Then Cabrera hits it out of the park. Sigh.

The statement of the season,so far.

HaroMaster87

06-04-2011, 09:35 PM

Could not disagree more.

Whos the better hitter???

Always walk the better hitter...

Jollyroger2

06-04-2011, 09:35 PM

That's what I said. Do that and it will take a little of the sting out of tonight's loss.

Not me. Cleveland lost again. Another missed opportunity.

JB98

06-04-2011, 09:36 PM

He can and he has. Many times.:(:

That's why you pitch to Cabrera. Crain just didn't make a good pitch. He had him 0-2.

The problem was with execution, not decision-making.

SOXSINCE'70

06-04-2011, 09:36 PM

Remember when the Sox used to own Verlander, what the **** happened?

He learned how to pitch against them.:(:

SOXSINCE'70

06-04-2011, 09:37 PM

That's why you pitch to Cabrera. Crain just didn't make a good pitch. He had him 0-2.

The problem was with execution, not decision-making.

Correct.

JB98

06-04-2011, 09:38 PM

Whos the better hitter???

Always walk the better hitter...

Against the Sox, Martinez is the better hitter. Always has been.

No one was complaining last night when Santos executed his pitches and struck Cabrera out.

You gotta execute your pitches. Crain has been good this year, but he failed this time.

HaroMaster87

06-04-2011, 09:42 PM

Against the Sox, Martinez is the better hitter. Always has been.

No one was complaining last night when Santos executed his pitches and struck Cabrera out.

You gotta execute your pitches. Crain has been good this year, but he failed this time.

the execution argument could be argued for ANY matchup. If the pitcher does what hes supposed to, it results in an out.

sox1970

06-04-2011, 09:42 PM

Before they leave tonight, they should tell Dunn that he's going to wake up tomorrow with a sore back, and he's going on the DL for a couple weeks to clear his head.

Viciedo had a homer and double tonight, btw.

miker

06-04-2011, 09:43 PM

He learned how to pitch against them.:(:

Plus the quality of the Sox hitters is definitely not what it was.

JB98

06-04-2011, 09:44 PM

the execution argument could be argued for ANY matchup. If the pitcher does what hes supposed to, it results in an out.

If Crain makes that same pitch to Martinez after walking Cabrera, then it's a 3-run HR instead of a 2-run HR. Whoop-dee-doo. We still lose.

Lip Man 1

06-04-2011, 09:45 PM

Let's see they've lost 10 of 11 to Detroit dating back to last year...

They've lost 15 of 20 to Minnesota dating back to last year...

Not good anytime but worse becaue both are in the division.

Sox used to flat own Verlander...not anymore.

Peavy needs to pitch well and they need to win this damn series.

Lip

Nelfox02

06-04-2011, 09:49 PM

didnt have high hopes for this game going in.......but still frustrating. Verlander is a stud, when he got Quentin in the 8th, I knew they had us. Crain oh so close.......

At least Dunn did only struck out 3 times tonight, does he have a chace to be MLB's single season strike out king this year? He is just beyond brutal......Rios? Their at bats speak for themselves. At least Rios got on base to start the ninth

tomorrow is a big game for this team----need to win this series.

NLaloosh

06-04-2011, 09:51 PM

I'm not down on this team. They almost beat one of the very best pitcher's in abseball today.

As long as they win tomorrow (and I believe they will) all will be good.

As for Dunn, I don't know what to do. But, I almost fell down laughing when I read Kenny Williams quote comparing Dunn's career to Pujols and Texiera !:roflmao:

Shoeless_Jeff

06-04-2011, 09:54 PM

Just keep winning series.

MarkZ35

06-04-2011, 09:54 PM

Is it just me or did it seem like an usually high number of Tigers fans at the park tonight, I could hear it through the tv.

It's been that way a lot lately, mostly transplants who are fleeing the **** hole that is Detroit

Dibbs

06-04-2011, 09:55 PM

Can't win them all, but man Dunn and Rios are terrible. I always appreciate Kenny's effort. However, the dollars spent on Peavy, Dunn and Rios versus the production they have given us really takes us out of contention.

Brian26

06-04-2011, 10:00 PM

This is a legitimate cap-tipper. Verlander is a ****ing good pitcher.

This was a winnable game.

Brian26

06-04-2011, 10:02 PM

You honestly do have to tip your cap to Verlander tonight.

No you don't. The Sox have had games in the past against lesser pitchers where they've had no chance. The Sox were a base hit from winning this game. If Morel scores in the 8th, Crain probably doesn't pitch the 9th.

Brian26

06-04-2011, 10:03 PM

I didn't get a chance to see the game, but why did we pitch to Cabrera in the 8th with two outs and first base open?

Victor Martinez bats behind him.

Brian26

06-04-2011, 10:04 PM

I also am not buying the "Dunn and Rios are trying" stuff. The way Dunn is just waving at pitches and the way Rios lazied his way on the basepath tonight shows otherwise.

Rios' biggest blunder appeared to be the way he played Austin Jackon's double into a triple.

CHISOXFAN13

06-04-2011, 10:06 PM

One of the few times the Sox execute a sac bunt, and Morel couldn't score from second on a single.

Five back in the loss column behind Detroit now.

A real gut puncher of a loss.

Brian26

06-04-2011, 10:06 PM

Is it just me or did it seem like an usually high number of Tigers fans at the park tonight, I could hear it through the tv.

There's an usually high number of Tiger fans living in Chicago, especially the north side. I was on Clark Street a few weeks ago and saw dozens of Tigers caps. People graduating from MSU and U of M are moving to Chicago to work since Detroit is starting to resemble a third world country.

Brian26

06-04-2011, 10:08 PM

didnt have high hopes for this game going in.......but still frustrating. Verlander is a stud, when he got Quentin in the 8th, I knew they had us. Crain oh so close.......

That Quentin AB was bs. All you need is a flyball with one out, at worst make contact and try to poke it into RF. Can't go down looking with a strikeout there on a close pitch.

Jerko

06-04-2011, 10:16 PM

That quentin at bat was the game. That said, you don't pitch to cabrera. Martinez is a shell of his former self, especially batting righty.

soxfan1965

06-04-2011, 10:17 PM

Rios' biggest blunder appeared to be the way he played Austin Jackon's double into a triple.

** It put more pressure on Crain with a leadoff guy at 3rd. Crain almost got it done, just a slider that didn't slide enough. Rios just didn't get it Dunn. Quinten probably had to be more agressive on the last pitch for a sac fly to get the runner in from 3rd. **

There's an usually high number of Tiger fans living in Chicago, especially the north side. I was on Clark Street a few weeks ago and saw dozens of Tigers caps. People graduating from MSU and U of M are moving to Chicago to work since Detroit is starting to resemble a third world country.

** Same at NU football games, Spartan visits bring out lot of MSU fans, probably from here. Local stores stock more MSU and UM stuff than NU stuff **

JB98

06-04-2011, 10:18 PM

That quentin at bat was the game. That said, you don't pitch to cabrera. Martinez is a shell of his former self, especially batting righty.

Huh? He's hitting .340 since May 1. And .286 as a right-handed hitter.

guillensdisciple

06-04-2011, 10:23 PM

We'll get them tomorrow.

Dunn and Rios are worthless.

Jerko

06-04-2011, 10:24 PM

Huh? He's hitting .340 since May 1. And .286 as a right-handed hitter.

And yet ohman got him out. No brainer imo. Don't let their best guy beat you. Cabrera is their best guy.

JermaineDye05

06-04-2011, 10:25 PM

No you don't. The Sox have had games in the past against lesser pitchers where they've had no chance. The Sox were a base hit from winning this game. If Morel scores in the 8th, Crain probably doesn't pitch the 9th.

Verlander made perfect pitches to both Quentin and AJ to make sure the run didn't score, especially Quentin.

Carlos didn't have one ball in that at-bat that he could have driven to the outfield.

The last pitch was right on the corner. If he somehow manages to make contact, it's probably a routine DP.

JermaineDye05

06-04-2011, 10:26 PM

We'll get them tomorrow.

Dunn and Rios are worthless.

Now they are.

I'm not ready to label them as such for the remainder of their contracts. 2 months of horrendous play does not make me forget about their previous success.

Brian26

06-04-2011, 10:29 PM

The last pitch was right on the corner. If he somehow manages to make contact, it's probably a routine DP.

There was a hole open on the right side with Cabrera holding Alexei at 1B. The point is moot, however, since TCQ is programmed to pull everything.

TDog

06-04-2011, 10:30 PM

I can't believe people are complaining about the Sox offense. When Quentin struck out with runners on first and third and one out with a tie score in the bottom of the eighth, MLB reported Verlander's fastball at 100 mph. He was approaching 110 pitches and throwing as hard or harder than he was in the early innings.

The Sox were in position to win this game -- or at least take the lead in the bottom of the eighth -- against as good a pitcher as they are going to face this year. I don't think anyone saw that coming in the top of the first. (Who saw Edwin Jackson turning in a quality start and leaving he game tied when he was approaching 40 pitches before getting the night's third out?) Complaining about the lack of offense is overreacting. With all the complaints about the offense, the Sox had a 40-RBI man up in a position where a sacrifice fly could have put the Sox three outs away from a win.

This game was lost by the bullpen, and the bullpen didn't do that badly. Crain was one strike away from going into the bottom of the ninth tied after a leadoff triple in front of the best hitters.

This was a game I would rather have seen played without a DH, no just because the White Sox got no production out of their DH, but because the Tigers might have pinch hit for Verlander in the top of the eighth. It's one of those checks and balances that I miss about American League baseball. The Sox might have produced more offense if there were pitchers taking turns hitting in the lineup.

It was a tough loss in a game that could have been won. The Sox even got a hit with a runner in scoring position with the score tied in the eighth. It leaves a symmetry in the division, with the Tigers being as close to the Indians as the White Sox are to the Tigers. And the Twins nearly a close to the White Sox as the White Sox are to the Indians. But this division feels closer.

JB98

06-04-2011, 10:33 PM

And yet ohman got him out. No brainer imo. Don't let their best guy beat you. Cabrera is their best guy.

Could not disagree more.

Cabrera lifetime vs. Sox: .244
Martinez lifetime vs. Sox: .311

I posted in last night's postgame thread that I loved the move to go right after Cabrera in the ninth. It worked last night, failed tonight. But it was the RIGHT MOVE both times. I'd be a two-faced ****ing hypocrite if I criticized Ozzie for not walking Cabrera tonight.

If the same situation happens tomorrow, I hope we go right after Cabrera. Not backing down an inch.

BringHomeDaBacon

06-04-2011, 10:35 PM

Against the Sox, Martinez is the better hitter. Always has been.

No one was complaining last night when Santos executed his pitches and struck Cabrera out.

You gotta execute your pitches. Crain has been good this year, but he failed this time.

Martinez owns the Sox. Cabrera has to beat me. I said it after we struck Cabrera's ass out last night. I'm not changing my tune now.

At least I'm consistent.

Crooked Number

06-04-2011, 10:39 PM

Well i just got done composing a lengthy well thought out piece (i'd like to think) that took me almost a half hour, and when i hit submit reply the site had auto logged me off so i lost the whole thing. lol. totally not frustrating at all! :angry:

So instead i will just keep it brief:

You do not let one of the best hitters of the past 10 years in baseball beat you. You check a stat sheet (if you even need to because its so obvious) and read the one that says "Miguel Cabrera is leading the league with runners in scoring batting average". Then the manager holds up four fingers. You let the next guy beat you, not Cabrera. Martinez is not better than him. This is a no brainer and baseball 101. Another classic moment of Ozzie buffoonery. He has just been terrible at mananging these past few seasons. :scratch: x1000 at this decision to pitch to him.

Is Dunn going to surpass Paulie's 2003 as one of the worst seasons for a position player for a star Sox player? I think he has it in the bag. Paulie posted .234/16/65 and hit into 28 double plays that year. Alot of fans wanted him shipped out of here. Good thing that didnt happen because the next four seasons were 30 and 100, and has blossomed into one of the best Sox hitters in recent memory. Dunn is in the midst of a fluky bad season. I am pretty worried that he is going to just be bad all year. Baseballdomus is seeing .220s/18 to 22/70-80. It's going to be a rough one folks. I am rooting hard for him, i hope he figures it out and goes on a tear.

Lillibridge is a god send. He gives this team the much needed energy...the spark the Sox have been missing. Wonderful catch on that foul ball. He smiles and enjoys the game. He isnt a zombie, we have too many of those. The kid stays in until he proves he doesn't deserve being in there. He has earned it.

AJ, on a pitch out, still doesn't throw out the base runner. *face palm*.
I had a ton more but it's time to hit the bar. Get the win tomorrow guys, this is a huge one. In my eyes, if they don't win this series, then all that recent good play goes for naught. You have to beat the teams in front of you, in the division.

JB98

06-04-2011, 10:43 PM

51 posts in Friday's postgame thread. I just reread them all.

Nobody had a problem pitching to Cabrera in the ninth inning last night. Nobody.

JermaineDye05

06-04-2011, 10:43 PM

Well i just got done composing a lengthy well thought out piece (i'd like to think) that took me almost a half hour, and when i hit submit reply the site had auto logged me off so i lost the whole thing. lol. totally not frustrating at all! :angry:

So instead i will just keep it brief:

You do not let one of the best hitters of the past 10 years in baseball beat you. You check a stat sheet (if you even need to because its so obvious) and read the one that says "Miguel Cabrera is leading the league with runners in scoring batting average". Then the manager holds up four fingers. You let the next guy beat you, not Cabrera. Martinez is not better than him. This is a no brainer and baseball 101. Another classic moment of Ozzie buffoonery. He has just been terrible at mananging these past few seasons. :scratch: x1000 at this decision to pitch to him.

Is Dunn going to surpass Paulie's 2003 as one of the worst seasons for a position player for a star Sox player? I think he has it in the bag. Paulie posted .234/16/65 and hit into 28 double plays that year. Alot of fans wanted him shipped out of here. Good thing that didnt happen because the next four seasons were 30 and 100, and has blossomed into one of the best Sox hitters in recent memory. Dunn is in the midst of a fluky bad season. I am pretty worried that he is going to just be bad all year. Baseballdomus is seeing .220s/18 to 22/70-80. It's going to be a rough one folks. I am rooting hard for him, i hope he figures it out and goes on a tear.

Lillibridge is a god send. He gives this team the much needed energy...the spark the Sox have been missing. Wonderful catch on that foul ball. He smiles and enjoys the game. He isnt a zombie, we have too many of those. The kid stays in until he proves he doesn't deserve being in there. He has earned it.

AJ, on a pitch out, still doesn't throw out the base runner. *face palm*.

I had a ton more but it's time to hit the bar. Get the win tomorrow guys, this is a huge one. In my eyes, if they don't win this series, then all that recent good play goes for naught. You have to beat the teams in front of you, in the division.

You should be able to just log back in and it will post what you wrote. That's been the case for me whenever I start a lengthy thread.

Soxman219

06-04-2011, 10:45 PM

Martinez has always owned the Sox in these situations and Carbera stuck out to Santos last night in a similar situation. Just got burned this time.

Gavin

06-04-2011, 10:46 PM

Adam Dunn deserved every bit of booing he received tonight. What a ****ing waste.

Hitmen77

06-04-2011, 10:47 PM

The Tigers have two superstars in their prime. One is a pitcher. The other plays first base. They beat the Sox tonight.

...and the Sox have two players making a combined $24 million for 2011 who are each hitting less than .200.:angry:

Dunn with 3 more Ks and his avg drops to .178. That's just brutal. I hope Konerko comes back soon and they keep playing Lillibridge so that we don't have both Rios and Dunn as two automatic outs in our lineup.

On the bright side, it's only 1200 days until Rios's $12M/yr contract is up.:mad: Man, KW really got burned in that waiver claim!

Zakath

06-04-2011, 10:47 PM

There's an usually high number of Tiger fans living in Chicago, especially the north side. I was on Clark Street a few weeks ago and saw dozens of Tigers caps. People graduating from MSU and U of M are moving to Chicago to work since Detroit is starting to resemble a third world country.

That's an insult... to most Third-World countries.

** Same at NU football games, Spartan visits bring out lot of MSU fans, probably from here. Local stores stock more MSU and UM stuff than NU stuff **

Most of the Spartan fans who make it to Evanston for MSU visits actually come from the Lansing area. The parking lots on Gameday are full of Michigan plates (believe me, I've made the trip a number of times, as a Spartan fan living in Indiana, and Michigan plates are everywhere). It's only about 4 hours from Lansing to Evanston.

Zakath

06-04-2011, 10:49 PM

Adam Dunn deserved every bit of booing he received tonight. What a ****ing waste.

Really looked like a lack of effort from him at the plate, which is even worse than the strikeouts. He looked to be waving at pitches out of the strike zone. Finally laid off the low ball out of the zone against Valverde, only to hit a grounder that almost ended the game.

Lip Man 1

06-04-2011, 10:51 PM

"Every time we don't get a big hit we lose." -- Ozzie on the postgame.

Well duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From what I understand Rios and Dunn were booed heavily tonight.

Lip

JermaineDye05

06-04-2011, 10:52 PM

"Every time we don't get a big hit we lose." -- Ozzie on the postgame.

Well duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From what I understand Rios and Dunn were booed heavily tonight.

Lip

They were.

I fail to see what this is supposed to accomplish.

Gavin

06-04-2011, 10:53 PM

"Every time we don't get a big hit we lose." -- Ozzie on the postgame.

Well duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From what I understand Rios and Dunn were booed heavily tonight.

Lip

Did you even watch the game? Dunn and Rios were GIVING the pitchers strikes by swinging at garbage outside of the zone.

Gavin

06-04-2011, 10:54 PM

They were.

I fail to see what this is supposed to accomplish.

A curt reminder that fans don't like garbage?

Wait, wait.

Maybe if we applaud their ****ty performance they will suddenly turn good!

Anyway, welcome to sports.

TDog

06-04-2011, 10:54 PM

Martinez owns the Sox. Cabrera has to beat me. I said it after we struck Cabrera's ass out last night. I'm not changing my tune now. ...

You shouldn't. Martinez on-deck was the reason Crain pitched to Cabrera, who didn't have a hit all night. Crain had two strikes on Cabrera. It wasn't as if he fell behind Cabrera and came in with something to he could hit. Up until the home run, Cabrera was having a goat night, not a hero night.

Gavin

06-04-2011, 10:55 PM

You shouldn't. Martinez on-deck was the reason Crain pitched to Cabrera, who didn't have a hit all night. Crain had two strikes on Cabrera. It wasn't as if he fell behind Cabrera and came in with something to he could hit. Up until the home run, Cabrera was having a goat night, not a hero night.

I didn't think I'd see a player look worse than Juan Pierre did the first month of the season, but that player is Adam Dunn. Not sure how long we can play him or Rios, just not a lot of choice. Between a rock and a hard place with those two guys.

Zakath

06-04-2011, 10:58 PM

You shouldn't. Martinez on-deck was the reason Crain pitched to Cabrera, who didn't have a hit all night. Crain had two strikes on Cabrera. It wasn't as if he fell behind Cabrera and came in with something to he could hit. Up until the home run, Cabrera was having a goat night, not a hero night.

Right idea by Crain, bad execution. Cabrera has been whiffing at stuff diving out of the zone throughout the series; Crain got too much of the plate with that pitch and Cabrera went with it.

Only one person addressed this whole Cabrera-Martinez quandary, and that was me.

I applauded the decision to pitch to Cabrera. The same situation came up tonight. I applaud the decision again, just not the result.

Where were all the critics last night? At least I'm consistent in my philosophy.

Hitmen77

06-04-2011, 10:59 PM

Before they leave tonight, they should tell Dunn that he's going to wake up tomorrow with a sore back, and he's going on the DL for a couple weeks to clear his head.

Viciedo had a homer and double tonight, btw.

...and Mark Teahen is hitting .185 in seven rehab games at Charlotte.

JermaineDye05

06-04-2011, 11:02 PM

A curt reminder that fans don't like garbage?

Wait, wait.

Maybe if we applaud their ****ty performance they will suddenly turn good!

Anyway, welcome to sports.

They're both hitting at or below .200.

I think each is well aware that they've played like ****.

I'd like to think that the fans are more aware to how valuable they are to the team if it has any chances of succeeding this year.

Booing the hell out of them isn't going to all of a sudden make them start hitting.

Zakath

06-04-2011, 11:04 PM

I didn't think I'd see a player look worse than Juan Pierre did the first month of the season, but that player is Adam Dunn. Not sure how long we can play him or Rios, just not a lot of choice. Between a rock and a hard place with those two guys.

If Paulie is back, you have options to sit Dunn, letting Lillibridge play right and DH'ing Quentin.

Rios is a bit tougher to replace in the field, but you've got to move him down in the order, or put him back in the 3 spot where he has hit for most of his career. Putting Dunn at 3 and Rios at 5 to start the season was a mistake.

samurai_sox

06-04-2011, 11:04 PM

It's been that way a lot lately, mostly transplants who are fleeing the **** hole that is Detroit

Or as I like to call them,

Michigan refugees.

Gavin

06-04-2011, 11:04 PM

They're both hitting at or below .200.

I think each is well aware that they've played like ****.

I'd like to think that the fans are more aware to how valuable they are to the team if it has any chances of succeeding this year.

Booing the hell out of them isn't going to all of a sudden make them start hitting.

Do you even go to games? I suggest you buy a seat near the home team dugout and throw flowers at Adam Dunn as he strikes out yet again. He deserves being booed. What a ****ing waste of fan money he is.

Jerko

06-04-2011, 11:05 PM

Sox were up 2 with santos on the mound last night. Walking cabrera then would have put the lead run, aka, the fearsome martinez at bat. Tonight was an entirely different situation.

CHISOXFAN13

06-04-2011, 11:05 PM

They're both hitting at or below .200.

I think each is well aware that they've played like ****.

I'd like to think that the fans are more aware to how valuable they are to the team if it has any chances of succeeding this year.

Booing the hell out of them isn't going to all of a sudden make them start hitting.

Neither is giving them a standing ovation and applauding their every move.

Booing is not malicious. If that kind of thing affects them, then neither belongs in the game.

JermaineDye05

06-04-2011, 11:06 PM

Do you even go to games? I suggest you buy a seat near the home team dugout and throw flowers at Adam Dunn as he strikes out yet again. He deserves being booed. What a ****ing waste of fan money he is.

I never said to cheer Dunn and Rios.

I just think booing only exacerbates the issue as both are clearly in a bad place mentally right now.

JB98

06-04-2011, 11:07 PM

Do you even go to games? I suggest you buy a seat near the home team dugout and throw flowers at Adam Dunn as he strikes out yet again. He deserves being booed. What a ****ing waste of fan money he is.

I go to games. I don't boo players unless I see a lack of effort.

I won't be booing Dunn or Rios tomorrow. Chances are I won't be applauding them either, unfortunately.

I know I get pretty pissed when the peanut gallery tells me how they think I should be doing my job. I don't think ballplayers are any different.

Gavin

06-04-2011, 11:08 PM

I never said to cheer Dunn and Rios.

I just think booing only exacerbates the issue as both are clearly in a bad place mentally right now.

So what do you suggest?

Should the fans quietly clap as they **** up another RISP at-bat?

Again, do you even attend games?

Crooked Number

06-04-2011, 11:13 PM

Again, 51 posts in the postgame thread last night.

Only one person addressed this whole Cabrera-Martinez quandary, and that was me.

I applauded the decision to pitch to Cabrera. The same situation came up tonight. I applaud the decision again, just not the result.

Where were all the critics last night? At least I'm consistent in my philosophy.

This critic was at Maifest last night, didnt get home till 3 so i missed last nights game. Upon seeing the highlights, i noticed Cabrera was up with no one on and they were down 2 runs. Therefore a solo homerun does not hurt you, doesnt even tie the game. Jerko beat me to it. Would you be ok pitching to Bautista in tonights situation if we were playing the Jays? You have an open base. You put the superstar on it. This isnt Canseco & McGuire on Oakland. Victor Martinez is a very good hitter. Cabrera is next to Pujols and a couple other select few in baseball. He is leading the league this season when hitting with risp. Terrible managing.

JB98

06-04-2011, 11:14 PM

This critic was at Maifest last night, didnt get home till 3 so i missed last nights game. Upon seeing the highlights, i noticed Cabrera was up with no one on and they were down 2 runs. Therefore a solo homerun does not hurt you, doesnt even tie the game. Jerko beat me to it. Would you be ok pitching to Bautista in tonights situation if we were playing the Jays? You have an open base. You put the superstar on it. This isnt Canseco & McGuire on Oakland. Victor Martinez is a very good hitter. Cabrera is next to Pujols and a couple other select few in baseball. He is leading the league this season when hitting with risp. Terrible managing.

Who is on deck? Who is on the mound? How is that pitcher throwing the ball? How has the hitter at the plate been swinging? Is he hot? Is he cold?

There are all kinds of factors to consider.

Gavin

06-04-2011, 11:14 PM

Who is on deck? Who is on the mound?

Who is at bat?

JB98

06-04-2011, 11:16 PM

Who is at bat?

Silly post. Don't insult me.

Gavin

06-04-2011, 11:17 PM

Silly post. Don't insult me.

I won't insult you with intelligence.

So lecture me.

Explain to me why M-Cab hit a dinger down 1-2 on the count.

Don't insult me.

JB98

06-04-2011, 11:19 PM

I won't insult you with intelligence.

So lecture me.

Explain to me why M-Cab hit a dinger down 1-2 on the count.

Don't insult me.

Because Crain made a bad pitch.

Explain to me why Babe Cabrera struck out in the ninth inning last night.

JermaineDye05

06-04-2011, 11:20 PM

So what do you suggest?

Should the fans quietly clap as they **** up another RISP at-bat?

Again, do you even attend games?

Do nothing.

I rarely attend games since I don't have the money and I also don't know many people that are either baseball fans or fans of the Sox.

However, when I do go to games, I don't boo the Sox when they don't execute. I don't cheer either. I simply do nothing. I may swear aside to myself, but that's it.

Lip Man 1

06-04-2011, 11:20 PM

More of the "streaks" vs. Detroit and Minnesota. (Toronto isn't included because they aren't in the division...)

The Sox haven't won a series vs. Detroit since Aug. 3-5, 2010. Lost three series in a row going into Sunday.

The Sox haven't won a series vs. Minnesota since May 19-21, 2009. 0-9-1 in that time period (win series / lose series / split series)

Unbelievable.

Hope Peavy pitches his rear end off Sunday...they need this one.

Lip

Jerko

06-04-2011, 11:21 PM

I know martinez has good numbers against us, but that was eons ago. Gotta be smarter than that imo

mzh

06-04-2011, 11:21 PM

I won't insult you with intelligence.

So lecture me.

Explain to me why M-Cab hit a dinger down 1-2 on the count.

Don't insult me.
He hit a dinger because Crain grooved one. Victor Martinez would have hit that out farther than Cabrera did, except then it's a 3 run homer because you walked Cabrera. With two outs in the 8th, and a runner on third, you don't put an extra baserunner on when the next guy is just as dangerous.

Also, calm down. They lost to a great pitcher and a great hitter. **** happens.

Mohoney

06-04-2011, 11:23 PM

I don't really think that this was one of those games to get really upset over losing. One of the best hitters in baseball hit a 2 run homer in a tie game in the 9th inning.

The win last night makes this a LOT easier to swallow, and I have a feeling that Jake Peavy is going to absolutely school the Tigers tomorrow. Even when Edwin Jackson had control problems, he was still able to get the big outs today and keep this game within reach, and Jake Peavy has 1 lone walk in the 25 innings he's pitched since his return.

I just hope that they don't have Verlander hangover against Brad Penny.

JB98

06-04-2011, 11:23 PM

He hit a dinger because Crain grooved one. Victor Martinez would have hit that out farther than Cabrera did, except then it's a 3 run homer because you walked Cabrera. With two outs in the 8th, and a runner on third, you don't put an extra baserunner on when the next guy is just as dangerous.

Also, calm down. They lost to a great pitcher and a great hitter. **** happens.

That's the best point anybody has made all night. There's really no need for outrage. The Tigers don't have a deep roster, but they have some terrific players. A couple of them got the best of the Sox tonight.

mzh

06-04-2011, 11:23 PM

I know martinez has good numbers against us, but that was eons ago. Gotta be smarter than that imo
Martinez hit .333 against us in 2010. Far from eons my friend.

JB98

06-04-2011, 11:25 PM

Martinez hit .333 against us in 2010. Far from eons my friend.

Yeah, he's a terrific player. And he provides great protection for Cabrera. I'm trying to get people to recognize that through their outrage tonight.

I wish we had Martinez.

Lip Man 1

06-04-2011, 11:25 PM

Gavin:

You posted asking if I even watched the game.

I'm not arguing against booing... mearly stating that I heard it was pretty extensive.

I'm on record as saying often that these are grown men making millions of dollars to play a kids game, I see nothing wrong with booing unless the comments are racial, sexist or vulgar.

If they can't take it then they need to find another profession.

And they need to appreciate the fact that they aren't playing for Boston, New York or Philly. If they were they'd be crucified by now both by the fans and the media who would have torn them to shreads.

They are tweo of the biggest acqusitions made by Kenny...bothhave been dismal failures. This i something of a reflection as well on what the fans think of Kenny's judgment in my opinion.

Lip

Crooked Number

06-04-2011, 11:26 PM

Who is on deck? Who is on the mound? How is that pitcher throwing the ball? How has the hitter at the plate been swinging? Is he hot? Is he cold?

There are all kinds of factors to consider.

Good point. Here is the factor i already listed: He is leading the league when hitting with runners in scoring position. Now you get Martinez to hit a weak grounder to third and its 2-2 going into the bottom of the ninth.

Lip Man 1

06-04-2011, 11:28 PM

JB:

Not saying you are wrong in your thoughts. (You probably aren't) but I am curious how a team that has only a "couple" quality top of the line players can beat the Sox 10 of 11.

Most people would probably say the Sox have had a better, deeper roster than them the past few years.

Verlander has turned into the next Sabathia, Lee, Santana and Liriano against the Sox. The Sox couldn't touch those guys if they were told what pitch was coming.

Lip

Gavin

06-04-2011, 11:29 PM

Gavin:

You posted asking if I even watched the game.

I'm not arguing against booing... mearly stating that I heard it was pretty extensive.

I'm on record as saying often that these are grown men making millions of dollars to play a kids game, I see nothing wrong with booing unless the comments are racial, sexist or vulgar.

If they can't take it then they need to find another profession.

And they need to appreciate the fact that they aren't playing for Boston, New York or Philly. If they were they'd be crucified by now both by the fans and the media who would have torn them to shreads.

They are tweo of the biggest acqusitions made by Kenny...bothhave been dismal failures. This i something of a reflection as well on what the fans think of Kenny's judgment in my opinion.

Lip

Nobody asked if you watched the game.

Running out of material?

Jerko

06-04-2011, 11:31 PM

Martinez hit .333 against us in 2010. Far from eons my friend.

if you think martinez is more dangerous than cabrera, I don't know what to tell you. Punto killed us too, would you face morneau to avoid him? No.

mzh

06-04-2011, 11:31 PM

Good point. Here is the factor i already listed: He is leading the league when hitting with runners in scoring position. Now you get Martinez to hit a weak grounder to third and its 2-2 going into the bottom of the ninth.
Victor Martinez is hitting .359 with RISP. Just as dangerous a hitter with RISP but with an extra guy on base. Still makes more sense to pitch to Cabrera, in addition to the fact that Cabrera has a .244 lifetime against the Sox and Martinez is a .311 hitter vs us.

mzh

06-04-2011, 11:33 PM

if you think martinez is more dangerous than cabrera, I don't know what to tell you. Punto killed us too, would you face morneau to avoid him? No.
That's absolutely taking what I said out of proportion and a terrible analogy to boot. At what point did I ever say Martinez was better than Cabrera? They are both standout hitters, and history shows that we probably were better off pitching to Cabrera. As JB points out, nobody complained when it worked yesterday.

Jerko

06-04-2011, 11:40 PM

That's absolutely taking what I said out of proportion and a terrible analogy to boot. At what point did I ever say Martinez was better than Cabrera? They are both standout hitters, and history shows that we probably were better off pitching to Cabrera. As JB points out, nobody complained when it worked yesterday.

Yesterday was a very different situation. martinez isn't a standout hitter anymore imo. I know what you guys are saying but I think tonight was a bad call.

Crooked Number

06-04-2011, 11:41 PM

That's absolutely taking what I said out of proportion and a terrible analogy to boot. At what point did I ever say Martinez was better than Cabrera? They are both standout hitters, and history shows that we probably were better off pitching to Cabrera. As JB points out, nobody complained when it worked yesterday.

Feel like we are going in circles here. Again, yesterday was completely different. Cabrera was not in a position to hurt us yesterday. He could not tie the game with a two run homer, he could at the very worst, make it a one run game. Still very saveable if that were to have happened.

Tonight, you have an open base. If Victor Martinez is hitting behind Barry Bonds in his roid prime, and he is up...you walk him and face Victor. Superstars are superstars, you have to let the lesser guys beat you. They are the ones who elevate their game in big situations. I would have been ok if Victor got a two run double or worse. At least you didnt let the big guy do damage. This is not a new theory. It's been around for quite a while.

That being said, Jackson's dismal performance should have put us down 5 or 6 at minimum. Instead he miraculously walked the tightrope every inning and we were fortunate to be in it. This would have been a steal if the Sox won it. Tomorrow is huge.

mzh

06-04-2011, 11:44 PM

Yesterday was a very different situation. martinez isn't a standout hitter anymore imo. I know what you guys are saying but I think tonight was a bad call.
Ah. That might be your opinion, but the facts say otherwise. Guy's a career .300 hitter, and still is. He's hitting .305 this year, and from 2007-2010 he hit .299 with about 23 HR/109 RBI per year. That is a standout hitter. He's also a .309 hitter with RISP.

mzh

06-04-2011, 11:51 PM

Feel like we are going in circles here. Again, yesterday was completely different. Cabrera was not in a position to hurt us yesterday. He could not tie the game with a two run homer, he could at the very worst, make it a one run game. Still very saveable if that were to have happened.

Tonight, you have an open base. If Victor Martinez is hitting behind Barry Bonds in his roid prime, and he is up...you walk him and face Victor. Superstars are superstars, you have to let the lesser guys beat you. They are the ones who elevate their game in big situations. I would have been ok if Victor got a two run double or worse. At least you didnt let the big guy do damage. This is not a new theory. It's been around for quite a while.

Thank you for a non condescending response. I absolutely understand where you're coming from. I think we just have a difference of opinion regarding philosophy in those situations. Fair enough.

As I said, they got beat by one of the best pitchers and hitters in the AL. **** happens. Get 'em tomorrow.

Crooked Number

06-05-2011, 12:00 AM

Ah. That might be your opinion, but the facts say otherwise. Guy's a career .300 hitter, and still is. He's hitting .305 this year, and from 2007-2010 he hit .299 with about 23 HR/109 RBI per year. That is a standout hitter.

And the guy hitting before him has done better than that. Since 2005 he has averaged 34 HR hit .321 and had a career high 126 RBI last year.

So, as a manager you look at who can hurt you more. The guy on deck is a career .300 hitter and has averaged 23 and 110. Thats good. The guy up has hit .321 averaged 34 and 120. Hmm...that is alot better, isn't it?

So pitching to Cabrera is a no brainer? Im not trying to be sarcastic i just am curious to why you are defending this so much. It's subjective, sure, and my opinion is that its a horse**** move by Ozzie.

Jerko

06-05-2011, 12:03 AM

Ah. That might be your opinion, but the facts say otherwise. Guy's a career .300 hitter, and still is. He's hitting .305 this year, and from 2007-2010 he hit .299 with about 23 HR/109 RBI per year. That is a standout hitter. He's also a .309 hitter with RISP.

true, but most of his damage against us was with the indians. Right now, I'd rather face him from the right side than cabrera.

Crooked Number

06-05-2011, 12:03 AM

Thank you for a non condescending response. I absolutely understand where you're coming from. I think we just have a difference of opinion regarding philosophy in those situations. Fair enough.

As I said, they got beat by one of the best pitchers and hitters in the AL. **** happens. Get 'em tomorrow.

Gotcha. It's an interesting debate for sure. We are all entitled to our own views and opinions. Need the win tomorrow, Go Sox!

mzh

06-05-2011, 12:05 AM

And the guy hitting before him has done better than that. Since 2005 he has averaged 34 HR hit .321 and had a career high 126 RBI last year.

So, as a manager you look at who can hurt you more. The guy on deck is a career .300 hitter and has averaged 23 and 110. Thats good. The guy up has hit .321 averaged 34 and 120. Hmm...that is alot better, isn't it?

So pitching to Cabrera is a no brainer? Im not trying to be sarcastic i just am curious to why you are defending this so much. It's subjective, sure, and my opinion is that its a horse**** move by Ozzie.
I'm defending it because I think it's dumb to look at it with 20/20 hindsight. If you know that Crain is going to groove one, then of course it makes more sense to walk Konerko. I think that if we had walked him we probably would have gone to extras. But I'm defending it because I think that history showed that at the time it was the right move to make. Just my $.02.

Also yes, it is now Sunday in Chicago, so I agree that it would be best to put it behind us as the 60-70 losses a good team will have. I'll be there tomorrow, so go Peavy!

StillMissOzzie

06-05-2011, 12:15 AM

They're both hitting at or below .200.

Booing the hell out of them isn't going to all of a sudden make them start hitting.

But it makes ME feel better venting my spleen.

Booing is not malicious. If that kind of thing affects them, then neither belongs in the game.

What (s)he said.

I know I get pretty pissed when the peanut gallery tells me how they think I should be doing my job. I don't think ballplayers are any different.
If they feel my performance isn't worth the price charged when they start paying to watch me work, they should be free to do so

Gavin:

You posted asking if I even watched the game.

I'm not arguing against booing... merely stating that I heard it was pretty extensive.

I'm on record as saying often that these are grown men making millions of dollars to play a kids game, I see nothing wrong with booing unless the comments are racial, sexist or vulgar.

If they can't take it then they need to find another profession.

And they need to appreciate the fact that they aren't playing for Boston, New York or Philly. If they were they'd be crucified by now both by the fans and the media who would have torn them to shreads.

Lip
I agree with this post 100%. First off, no personal / racial / obscene attacks, any booing I might do is solely based upon on-field performance, or lack thereof.

These are not 10 year olds in Little League who need a pat on the back and empty platitudes like "Good eye!" when they hold up on swinging at a neck-level pitch. This is the big leagues, and you are judged on your results, not just your effort.

If you can't handle the boos from the stands, get your heads out of your asses and play better!

SMO
:o:

SoxSpeed22

06-05-2011, 12:16 AM

What a concept, a good RBI producer hitting behind your best hitter in case the opponent decides to pitch around the best hitter. That way, they can still score runs.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgvt55wHFk1qfbuigo1_r1_400.gif

Hitmen77

06-05-2011, 12:25 AM

More of the "streaks" vs. Detroit and Minnesota. (Toronto isn't included because they aren't in the division...)

The Sox haven't won a series vs. Detroit since Aug. 3-5, 2010. Lost three series in a row going into Sunday.

The Sox haven't won a series vs. Minnesota since May 19-21, 2009. 0-9-1 in that time period (win series / lose series / split series)

Unbelievable.

Hope Peavy pitches his rear end off Sunday...they need this one.

Lip

Aug 3-5, 2010 isn't that long ago. But that 0-9-1 vs. the Twins since May 2009 is just ridiculous. (by the way, May 21, 2009 is the game we lost to the Twins 20-1.:o:)

You're right that Peavy needs to pitch his rear end off Sunday. We're going up against the great Brad Penny. Remember him, he shut our might offense down last month as the Tigers smoked us 9-0.

If the Sox can somehow manage to take this series, they then enter what should be a very favorable part of their schedule on a high note.

JB98

06-05-2011, 12:32 AM

Good point. Here is the factor i already listed: He is leading the league when hitting with runners in scoring position. Now you get Martinez to hit a weak grounder to third and its 2-2 going into the bottom of the ninth.

Let me ask you this: Which matchup do you like better from our perspective?

Crain vs. Cabrera
Ohman vs. Martinez

I'll take Crain vs. Cabrera. I think Crain is a good relief pitcher, but he lost this particular battle with Cabrera. I'll roll the dice on that matchup again tomorrow, if the same situation arises. I'll roll the dice on Santos vs. Cabrera any time, any place as well.

I think Ohman is crap. He got Martinez out this time. Don't count on it happening again in a clutch situation.

If you can honestly answer you prefer Ohman vs. Martinez, then we'll agree to disagree and we'll call it a night.

JB98

06-05-2011, 12:33 AM

JB:

Not saying you are wrong in your thoughts. (You probably aren't) but I am curious how a team that has only a "couple" quality top of the line players can beat the Sox 10 of 11.

Most people would probably say the Sox have had a better, deeper roster than them the past few years.

Verlander has turned into the next Sabathia, Lee, Santana and Liriano against the Sox. The Sox couldn't touch those guys if they were told what pitch was coming.

Lip

Hell, I don't know. How have the Sox beaten Boston 13 of the last 15 dating back to 2009? Most people would probably take Boston's roster over ours.

Some things can't be explained in this game.

JB98

06-05-2011, 12:36 AM

Feel like we are going in circles here. Again, yesterday was completely different. Cabrera was not in a position to hurt us yesterday. He could not tie the game with a two run homer, he could at the very worst, make it a one run game. Still very saveable if that were to have happened.

Tonight, you have an open base. If Victor Martinez is hitting behind Barry Bonds in his roid prime, and he is up...you walk him and face Victor. Superstars are superstars, you have to let the lesser guys beat you. They are the ones who elevate their game in big situations. I would have been ok if Victor got a two run double or worse. At least you didnt let the big guy do damage. This is not a new theory. It's been around for quite a while.

That being said, Jackson's dismal performance should have put us down 5 or 6 at minimum. Instead he miraculously walked the tightrope every inning and we were fortunate to be in it. This would have been a steal if the Sox won it. Tomorrow is huge.

Actually, yes, he could have tied the game. It was a 6-4 game and Austin Jackson was on second base.

Your last paragraph I agree with 100 percent. Edwin Jackson stunk, and somehow got away with it tonight.

JB98

06-05-2011, 12:43 AM

But it makes ME feel better venting my spleen.

What (s)he said.

If they feel my performance isn't worth the price charged when they start paying to watch me work, they should be free to do so

I agree with this post 100%. First off, no personal / racial / obscene attacks, any booing I might do is solely based upon on-field performance, or lack thereof.

These are not 10 year olds in Little League who need a pat on the back and empty platitudes like "Good eye!" when they hold up on swinging at a neck-level pitch. This is the big leagues, and you are judged on your results, not just your effort.

If you can't handle the boos from the stands, get your heads out of your asses and play better!

SMO
:o:

I want the White Sox to win, and I don't see how booing the players helps achieve that aim. Just don't see it. You can do whatever you want. I just don't agree with it personally.

It's known around here that I think Greg Walker sucks at his job. But I didn't boo him on Opening Day when he was introduced. Didn't cheer either. Just sat quietly and didn't say a word.

I'm not giving out "Good eyes!" and "Attaboys!" But I'm not booing either.

Foulke You

06-05-2011, 01:22 AM

I want the White Sox to win, and I don't see how booing the players helps achieve that aim. Just don't see it. You can do whatever you want. I just don't agree with it personally.

It's known around here that I think Greg Walker sucks at his job. But I didn't boo him on Opening Day when he was introduced. Didn't cheer either. Just sat quietly and didn't say a word.

I'm not giving out "Good eyes!" and "Attaboys!" But I'm not booing either.
Agreed. Just sit there and root for the next guy to get a hit. I'm not on board with the booing of Dunn and Rios in our home park. All it does is make the noose tighter around their necks which they are doing a great job of hanging from on their own. If there is any chance at all that the booing can possibly make things even HARDER on these guys who are already in a slump, WHY would you do it? Go ahead and say that "these guys are professionals who should suck it up" but the bottom line is that they are human and their ears work just fine. You think Adam Dunn isn't dying up there when he has to walk back to the dugout from yet another strikeout? Having boos rain down from the hometown fans on top of it isn't going to snap him out of the slump. To those fans that boo, congratulations on "voicing your displeasure" but you could now be contributing to the problem.

Crooked Number

06-05-2011, 01:23 AM

Let me ask you this: Which matchup do you like better from our perspective?

Crain vs. Cabrera
Ohman vs. Martinez

I'll take Crain vs. Cabrera. I think Crain is a good relief pitcher, but he lost this particular battle with Cabrera. I'll roll the dice on that matchup again tomorrow, if the same situation arises. I'll roll the dice on Santos vs. Cabrera any time, any place as well.

I think Ohman is crap. He got Martinez out this time. Don't count on it happening again in a clutch situation.

If you can honestly answer you prefer Ohman vs. Martinez, then we'll agree to disagree and we'll call it a night.

I had to come back on tonight because i was thinking about this debate still. First off, I was not aware that there was a runner on in the ninth friday. I feel a bit :redface: about that. I didnt get to see the game i was at a fest in lincoln square. For the record i agree with him being pitched to friday, even with the new correct information.

Now to your matchup question. Santos is dominant, and yes i will take Santos vs anyone in baseball right now. Honestly, i would have kept Crain in to face Victor. Crain has been nasty against lefties. They are 3 for 32 on the season against him. Of the four runs he has given up to lefties, only Daric Barton touched him for a 2 rbi hit. The other two were sac flies. Since we already used Sale, and Thornton has been a complete wildcard all season, we dont really have a reliable LOOGY. Hate Ohman in that situation, i would not bring him in to face Martinez. I have never been a big proponent of the LOOGY. Matt Thornton was nasty against righties in recent years, yet Ozzie would almost always take him out if a tough righty was up. Just because a guy throws righty, doesnt mean he cant be effective vs a left handed batter. This part of the game has really become ridiculous in my opinion over the last 20 or so years. Certainly adds to the length of the games, but thats off topic.

I have seen managers stick with relievers and thumb their noses to the righty/lefty matchup. Modern baseball is so specialized and going with a lefty RP just because a lefty batter is up isn't always the best option in my opinion. Especially if the guy who is currently out there has good numbers against them.

^ im aware that this is an unorthodox opinion so i will probably catch some heat for it. Heh.

SoxSpeed22

06-05-2011, 01:30 AM

The LOOGY is definitely more useful in the National League, where you're much more likely to see pinch hitters from the left side.
Hindsight or not, we really burned through our bullpen to the point where it became a pick your poison type scenario.

Foulke You

06-05-2011, 01:32 AM

I had to come back on tonight because i was thinking about this debate still. First off, I was not aware that there was a runner on in the ninth friday. I feel a bit :redface: about that. I didnt get to see the game i was at a fest in lincoln square. For the record i agree with him being pitched to friday, even with the new correct information.

Now to your matchup question. Santos is dominant, and yes i will take Santos vs anyone in baseball right now. Honestly, i would have kept Crain in to face Victor. Crain has been nasty against lefties. They are 3 for 32 on the season against him. Of the four runs he has given up to lefties, only Daric Barton touched him for a 2 rbi hit. The other two were sac flies. Since we already used Sale, and Thornton has been a complete wildcard all season, we dont really have a reliable LOOGY. Hate Ohman in that situation, i would not bring him in to face Martinez. I have never been a big proponent of the LOOGY. Matt Thornton was nasty against righties in recent years, yet Ozzie would almost always take him out if a tough righty was up. Just because a guy throws righty, doesnt mean he cant be effective vs a left handed batter. This part of the game has really become ridiculous in my opinion over the last 20 or so years. Certainly adds to the length of the games, but thats off topic.

I have seen managers stick with relievers and thumb their noses to the righty/lefty matchup. Modern baseball is so specialized and going with a lefty RP just because a lefty batter is up isn't always the best option in my opinion. Especially if the guy who is currently out there has good numbers against them.

^ im aware that this is an unorthodox opinion so i will probably catch some heat for it. Heh.
One thing to keep in mind though is that Victor is a switch hitter. A lefty like Ohman would be brought in to flip him to right handed which is his weaker side of the plate. It is the same concept of playing the numbers but not necessarily a lefty/lefty matchup. If Crain was left in the game, he would have been facing Victor's stronger hitting side.

I can see both sides to the Cabrera argument. The bottom line is the Tigers got what they paid for in Victor Martinez. They got legitimate protection for Cabrera in that lineup which makes managers think twice about pitching around him in key situations.

BainesHOF

06-05-2011, 02:22 AM

A few thoughts...

Cabrera is the best clutch hitter in the league who's well on his way to the Hall of Fame. Martinez is a good hitter, but he's no Cabrera. Ozzie got what he asked for.

I don't blame Quentin for taking the called third strike. It was a 100 mph borderline strike.

I don't blame Rios for the double-turned-triple. You have to go hard at the ball because you couldn't tell until it was too late whether it was catchable. That Rios didn't wind up catching it and the ball bounced away from him is just a bad break.

Dunn and Rios are obviously lost at the plate. Dunn is completely lost. That doesn't mean they're not trying. At this point, the best thing to do might be to give both three or four days off.

Mohoney

06-05-2011, 02:45 AM

People are really debating about IBBing Cabrera in the 9th inning?

There isn't a debate to be had. It's the 9th inning of a tie game. Either you get him out or he burns you. You ask Jesse Crain to get him out there. He threw a bad pitch to an elite hitter, and he got burned. It happens.

Mohoney

06-05-2011, 02:49 AM

A few thoughts...

Cabrera is the best clutch hitter in the league who's well on his way to the Hall of Fame. Martinez is a good hitter, but he's no Cabrera. Ozzie got what he asked for.

I don't blame Quentin for taking the called third strike. It was a 100 mph borderline strike.

I don't blame Rios for the double-turned-triple. You have to go hard at the ball because you couldn't tell until it was too late whether it was catchable. That Rios didn't wind up catching it and the ball bounced away from him is just a bad break.

Dunn and Rios are obviously lost at the plate. Dunn is completely lost. That doesn't mean they're not trying. At this point, the best thing to do might be to give both three or four days off.

Calling Miguel Cabrera "well on his way to the Hall of Fame" is crazy. He may very well eat and drink his way to the Mendoza line in 3 or 4 years.

Viva Medias B's

06-05-2011, 06:57 AM

The problem isn't that we pitched to Cabrera. The problem is the dead weight (Rios and Dunn) in the lineup.

Vernam

06-05-2011, 07:38 AM

Though not so far this year, in recent years Martinez has hit better right-handed, so it seems unlikely Ozzie would have brought in Ohman if Crain had walked Cabrera.

Vernam

doublem23

06-05-2011, 07:54 AM

Is it just me or did it seem like an usually high number of Tigers fans at the park tonight, I could hear it through the tv.

I didn't go to the game yesterday, but I was out and about at a street fest and there were a lot of folks in Tigers gear.

slavko

06-05-2011, 08:04 AM

51 posts in Friday's postgame thread. I just reread them all.

Nobody had a problem pitching to Cabrera in the ninth inning last night. Nobody.

Hawk was agitated Friday night about not letting Santos get to Martinez for the final out. Figured Martinez was more of a threat than Cabrera, whom he destroyed with sliders. That's good enough for me.

LITTLE NELL

06-05-2011, 08:30 AM

I want the White Sox to win, and I don't see how booing the players helps achieve that aim. Just don't see it. You can do whatever you want. I just don't agree with it personally.

It's known around here that I think Greg Walker sucks at his job. But I didn't boo him on Opening Day when he was introduced. Didn't cheer either. Just sat quietly and didn't say a word.

I'm not giving out "Good eyes!" and "Attaboys!" But I'm not booing either.

Been a Sox fan since the early 50s and not once have I ever booed a Sox player, not even the useless Claudell Washington.
Right now I think it would be neat if todays crowd gave Dunn and Rios a standing ovation when they come up to bat and maybe showing that the fans are behind them will make them feel better about themselves and break out of these horrible slumps.

PS I wish Rios would change his stance, there is something about it that just does not seem right. Too much bend in the knees?

kufram

06-05-2011, 08:36 AM

I watched the first 2 innings last night but by then it was 1:30 am for me and Jackson was at 60 pitches. I went to bed hoping that the bullpen didnt' get ruined for the next week. I'm amazed that the Tigers didn't score again until the 9th... what happened?.. did Jackson find the plate?

On the Dunn thing, I wonder what kind of slumps other home run, walk, strike out guys have suffered. Is Dunn making history?

24thStFan

06-05-2011, 09:38 AM

Rios' biggest blunder appeared to be the way he played Austin Jackon's double into a triple.

Can someone who was at the game comment on Rios' effort last night? On TV he looked like he was dogging it on the basepaths and his outfield play on the double looked horrible.

Gavin

06-05-2011, 09:49 AM

Agreed. Just sit there and root for the next guy to get a hit. I'm not on board with the booing of Dunn and Rios in our home park. All it does is make the noose tighter around their necks which they are doing a great job of hanging from on their own. If there is any chance at all that the booing can possibly make things even HARDER on these guys who are already in a slump, WHY would you do it? Go ahead and say that "these guys are professionals who should suck it up" but the bottom line is that they are human and their ears work just fine. You think Adam Dunn isn't dying up there when he has to walk back to the dugout from yet another strikeout? Having boos rain down from the hometown fans on top of it isn't going to snap him out of the slump. To those fans that boo, congratulations on "voicing your displeasure" but you could now be contributing to the problem.

Booing million dollar athletes contributes to the "problem" of ****ty hitting? Remember, I'm paying money to watch Adam Dunn get paid to go 0-4 with 3 Ks. How sanctimonious to say it's my fault for booing Adam Dunn and thus contributing to his struggles.

I don't even boo, but I feel it, and I sure as **** don't think people are "hurting" the hitters when they do it. Go work for the White Sox.. you'd fit right in.

Gavin

06-05-2011, 09:50 AM

Can someone who was at the game comment on Rios' effort last night? On TV he looked like he was dogging it on the basepaths and his outfield play on the double looked horrible.

There were some gappers but they really were well-hit balls into the deep gap; nothing he can do about that. He wasn't dogging it but he really wasn't hustling like a guy like Lillibridge does on groundouts.

balke

06-05-2011, 10:03 AM

Last atbat yesterday - Dunn grounded out to the SS instead of 2B. Small victory? Pretty sure that's one of the first times I've seem him try to go the other way and make contact.

hawkjt

06-05-2011, 10:10 AM

I watched the first 2 innings last night but by then it was 1:30 am for me and Jackson was at 60 pitches. I went to bed hoping that the bullpen didnt' get ruined for the next week. I'm amazed that the Tigers didn't score again until the 9th... what happened?.. did Jackson find the plate?

On the Dunn thing, I wonder what kind of slumps other home run, walk, strike out guys have suffered. Is Dunn making history?

Jackson just battled. He threw 120 pitches in 6 innings,but got away with it by making big pitches at key times,and getting some good defense behind him. I give him credit, last time out he had that disasterous first innning vs the Jays,and he hung in and gave the Sox a chance to win that game also. Now,about those first innings.....fix it,coop!

The pitching to Cabrera vs Martinez debate is why baseball is a great game. When he got ahead in the count, I was fine with it. When he hit that bad pitch, I was wishing they had walked both guys and pitched to Perralta.
These sting. Like with the Dodger loss two weeks ago...one pitch away from a tie or victory...and boom. Twice is too many times in a season...time for the Sox to return the favor with 2 out 9th inning homers to win a couple.

I wish home fans would refrain from booing Rios and Dunn,but I understand the frustration. I agree that it does not help matters tho,and probably does increase the internal pressure on these guys....we want to win,so why do it?

This Tigers lineup is just tough. 3 guys who are hitting .315+...Sox have no one higher than .300 last nite. PK needs to be in our lineup.

If AJ's grounder up the middle sneaks past Verlander or he tips it,Sox go up one,and have Sergio in for the 9th and probably win....game of inches.
I thought that the Sox offense was decent considering Verlander is soo good. They had chances....and almost got him. He is the best pitcher in the division,by quite a bit. But the rest of their starting staff? Average at best.
Valverde is a dick...must beat his butt!!

Jerko

06-05-2011, 10:17 AM

No Rios today. Paulie back in per the score

Lip Man 1

06-05-2011, 11:16 AM

Gavin:

This is exactly what you wrote in post #74 with my previous post copied right above it:

"Did you even watch the game? Dunn and Rios were GIVING the pitchers strikes by swinging at garbage outside of the zone."

I may be 55 and I may be Polish...but I haven't lost my mind completely yet.

:smile:

Lip

Gavin

06-05-2011, 11:21 AM

Gavin:

This is exactly what you wrote in post #74 with my previous post copied right above it:

"Did you even watch the game? Dunn and Rios were GIVING the pitchers strikes by swinging at garbage outside of the zone."

I may be 55 and I may be Polish...but I haven't lost my mind completely yet.

:smile:

Lip

You're damn right. I was pretty out of my mind last night with this loss. Owe you an apology! Thanks for being better than I would have been.

Chez

06-05-2011, 11:31 AM

Haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this was already raised on the Cabrera v. Martinez debate. Why not walk them both and pitch to Dirks? Sox had two open bases to work with. I realize that it greatly reduces the pitcher's margin of error if the bases are loaded, but I trust Crain to throw strikes with the bases loaded in that situation.

BainesHOF

06-05-2011, 12:40 PM

Calling Miguel Cabrera "well on his way to the Hall of Fame" is crazy. He may very well eat and drink his way to the Mendoza line in 3 or 4 years.

See Mickey Mantle.

At 28, Cabrera has 1,462 hits, 259 home runs, 921 RBI, a .313 batting average and a .553 slugging percentage.

Far be it of me to think a player who is on schedule to wind up with somewhere over 500 home runs and a .300 average as well on his way to the Hall of Fame. I guess I'm crazy like that.

Foulke You

06-05-2011, 12:44 PM

Booing million dollar athletes contributes to the "problem" of ****ty hitting? Remember, I'm paying money to watch Adam Dunn get paid to go 0-4 with 3 Ks. How sanctimonious to say it's my fault for booing Adam Dunn and thus contributing to his struggles.

I don't even boo, but I feel it, and I sure as **** don't think people are "hurting" the hitters when they do it. Go work for the White Sox.. you'd fit right in.
You completely missed the point of my post. Can we at least agree that booing will not help Dunn or Rios get of their slump? Yes? Ok, good. I never said that booing them was definitely contributing to the problem like you alluded to but I said that it CAN contribute to it. How much they are getting paid is not part of the equation in that regard. Do you think getting booed by the home town fans has never had a negative effect on a player in the history of baseball? If you think that, I have a feeling you'd be wrong. Perhaps Dunn doesn't give a crap about the boos. I hope that is the case but if there is a slight chance that booing him can only contribute to his mental woes, why would a fan of the Sox do it? Oh right, they paid their money and want to "voice their displeasure" with him because he is up there TRYING to embarrass himself with 3Ks.

kufram

06-05-2011, 12:53 PM

You completely missed the point of my post. Can we at least agree that booing will not help Dunn or Rios get of their slump? Yes? Ok, good. I never said that booing them was definitely contributing to the problem like you alluded to but I said that it CAN contribute to it. How much they are getting paid is not part of the equation in that regard. Do you think getting booed by the home town fans has never had a negative effect on a player in the history of baseball? If you think that, I have a feeling you'd be wrong. Perhaps Dunn doesn't give a crap about the boos. I hope that is the case but if there is a slight chance that booing him can only contribute to his mental woes, why would a fan of the Sox do it? Oh right, they paid their money and want to "voice their displeasure" with him because he is up there TRYING to embarrass himself with 3Ks.

It isn't just our team hearing the boos. It is bound to energize the other side when they realize how much the home side's own fans are against them.

TomBradley72

06-05-2011, 12:58 PM

It's painful to even watch Dunn hit at this point- he's not even effectively putting the ball in play- too bad there's so much money tied up with his contract- I'd take a Teahen/Viciedo combo at DH over him- he seems completely lost and I don't see him coming out of it any time soon.

The last time I saw a guy this hopeless at the plate was Cory Snyder.

VMSNS

06-05-2011, 03:05 PM

I was at last night's game, and the amount of Detroit fans there was suffocating. They were certainly out in droves, and there were at least three instances where I heard rather loud "Let's go Tigers!" chants. Rios and Dunn were also heavily booed, for right or for wrong. Both were embarrassing at the plate.