#1Posted on: 2011/8/10 9:59
Suggestions to Creation of a NEW Xoops Council...

Since no one else has started this..

Lets make this thread a productive one...

Please no attacks etc.. Only discussion on what should happen with the Xoops Council.

Personally I think we need a diverse and somewhat large council. Or it may be more accurately reconfigured to be called a board of directors.

Why do we need one? The current strife I think is because we don't currently have a strong board and due to insecurities, distrust and differences in culture we are having issues. The BEST way to make sure this doesn't happen in the future is to build a better mouse trap. The council/board should be responsible for the direction of Xoops. If built strong and smartly then there is no room for such problems in the future but everyone has to "believe in the program". With a different direction and purpose I think we will see some of the old developers come back and we can restart the excitement in Xoops. This is displayed as a community project so as a community lets make it one. Not sure about you but it appears that every 4 years the xoops project seems to build up to a head, it blows up and there is a huge split and we start over... So lets do something to prevent this from happening again and make it a strong project. Nothing good comes without pain. SO lets make this "pain" work towards something good. With true community involvement there should be enough room to build this into a money making project for all of us in one shape or form. And we can "ALL" get recognition for our part...

#3Posted on: 2011/8/10 12:54
Re: Suggestions to Creation of a NEW Xoops Council...

Rodney, the Council works and has done its duties in the past correctly, including handling disagreements.

So what happened now? Let's look at the root-cause of the current issue.

The normal process should work like this:

1) If I have an issue or would like to suggest a change, I go to the Council and raise the issue there.

2) If the Council rejects my proposal, I can go to the Community and raise the issue there. If after a discussion, the community overwhelmingly supports that, then the Council should take it into consideration.

The current problem arrived when two of Council members, instead of raising the issue of changing project structure to the Council, as they should, went to a private mailing list and started voting over there on the XOOPS project structure. That's like having a coup d'etat.

Would they bring it up to the Council, there would be a voting and decision would be made. If they were unhappy with the voting, they could raise it to the community.

So personally I don't think it's a Council problem, but a problem with not following the process, and actually trying to go around the process.

I like your idea of adding members of the community "at large".

Maybe we should add one or two people who have heavily invested into XOOPS, e.g. somebody who currently has the most XOOPS sites, because he would be directly impacted by any negative changes in XOOPS.

Or somebody who built a strong business providing XOOPS-based solutions, and his livelihood depends on XOOPS.

What do you think?

Another thing - we need to have an yearly performance review of team leaders, based on their list of objectives. Are those things happening that should be happening? If they are not, then the person in charge should be held accountable. The last thing that we want is to have a "social club" of people who like nice titles.

And it's not required that a particular person has to do it himself. They can delegate, they can ask somebody else to help them, if they are having temporary time problems. For example, Rune had time issues due to his wife's car accident, and I was helping him with his tasks.

So review the task list and ask yourself: are those tasks in a particular team happening? If not, why not? Who is in charge? What should be changed in order to ensure that those things start happening. What has a particular team leader done for the last one or two years in regards to his task list if there is nothing going on? If nothing has been done, should we ask a team leader to leave and ask the team to elect a new leader?

#4Posted on: 2011/8/10 14:23
Re: Suggestions to Creation of a NEW Xoops Council...

I can see how members could become concerned that this highly charged discussion (now spinning within 3 threads) might reflect poorly on the XOOPS project.I see something else.I am moved by the level of commitment of all contributors. It demonstrates a rare and valuable element of any 'community' exercise, passion.But that same passion makes it difficult to step back and robs each invested party of the objectivity to see the 'big' picture.

For what it is worth, I am not heavily invested in any of the potential resolutions. And, perhaps, for that reason, you may find some merit in this contribution.

Rodney, I will repeat that your observations and clear language are a blessing. But I believe that your conclusions and recommendations for a more sophisticated ontology within the organization are misplaced. They simply do not fit the size of the organization. The care, focus and attention required to establish that properly would surely divert the core talent from more valuable efforts.

Mamba, I believe your reasoning about process is sound, but your recommendation to solicit members who are heavily invested is flawed. I believe that there is enough 'brain power' within the community to deliberate a well enunciated question... What is lacking is a vehicle to solicit and evaluate those opinions, and some objective, impartial parties to manage that process. XOOPs has gui experts, code experts, marketing experts and any number of people that can navigate complex ideas and shape them into coherent packages. But, surprisingly, this directed, driven, social organization has no social experts, no specialists who are as passionate about process as the existing members are passionate about product.

And none of this will make one bit of difference right now because the entire project is so fundamentally invested in the personal contributions of a handful of key people.You will not change this with goodwill, Mamba. You will not rewrite events with any better perception, Rodney. And the immediate future belongs to none of us.

'I want' are the two most dangerous words to use during a crisis of will. Please allow time for the 'passion' to settle. You will not loose it. It will still be there after fundamental questions are answered by those that hold the keys. Artificial timelines or artificial authorities will not improve our leverage to 'make those happen now'.

Once the future options are clear, if everyone is still interested, then we can postulate about the merits of a 'talent' vs 'social' engine of development. We can deliberate and decide on a working ontology and whether that requires a council or a board or both. Then, and only then, would it make sense to talk about its' mission and makeup.

#5Posted on: 2011/8/10 17:33
Re: Suggestions to Creation of a NEW Xoops Council...

Quote:

Mamba wrote:

Are those things happening that should be happening? If they are not, then the person in charge should be held accountable...

I have to agree with that.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether Xoops is driven by a team, committee, council or brigade, its future is in the hands of the small number of people who really understand how Xoops works and their willingness to get PHP coders interested in Xoops again as an OOP development platform.

This challenge is quite rightly included in the task list:

Quote:

* Assist in the training and development of emerging module developers for the XOOPS Project.

* Assist in preparation of documentation concerning module development, in partnership with the Documentation group.

People from the wider community cannot do this work. It needs a seasoned Xoops expert. Moreover, I believe it needs to be given priority.

The way things are going, Xoops runs the risk of being seen as a 'closed-source' project, where the only new modules are created by the core team or council members and users are expected to be pathetically grateful.

The 'module pack' is a prime example of the problem. I applaud the work that has gone into this from Mamba and others, but the fact it had to be undertaken by the Xoops management in order to give Xoops users a chance of getting a site up and running is pretty sad.

As for X3, there is literally a handful of people that know how it works, so if Xoops.org is to support X3 the council needs to address the issue of who exactly is going to donate their time to answering questions about it here?.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is prepared to make a serious commitment to one or more aspects of the task list would be a good candidate for the council.

However, if you want to draw a parallel with the pressures typically placed on a commercial board of directors, council members should accept that if they fail to complete their tasks in a reasonable time frame they'll get canned and lose their Beemer.

#6Posted on: 2011/8/10 18:42
Re: Suggestions to Creation of a NEW Xoops Council...

@ Peekay:Quote:

The way things are going, Xoops runs the risk of being seen as a 'closed-source' project, where the only new modules are created by the core team or council members and users are expected to be pathetically grateful.

The 'module pack' is a prime example of the problem. I applaud the work that has gone into this from Mamba and others, but the fact it had to be undertaken by the Xoops management in order to give Xoops users a chance of getting a site up and running is pretty sad.

It started that way, and if it would end-up there, then I would agree with you. But the idea behind the "Basic Module Pack" was to spark more activities from all members so we could create a "movement", and we are slowly succeeding!

I started it with a design idea from the TDMCreate module, then Mage came and told me: "Hey, we can do it easier if we use something like a ModuleAdmin class", and I liked the approach. Zyspec, Voltan, Timgno joined, and few others helped as well, so we started expanding it. Now users in France are improving on some modules (e.g. JJDao working on extCal), and other developers (like Andrey with his Chat module), are using the same approach for their modules. And I firmly believe that we'll see more of that, once people realize that having consistency will help XOOPS by making easier for:- our users to use the modules, and - our developers to create them.

The goal is to create a good module team infrastructure where members can come up with innovative ideas and we'll incorporate them, as we did with Mage's ModuleAdmin class. And if any of these ideas can be improved, we'll do it and not allow a "not invented here" syndrome to control us.

Having good, modern, cool looking and easy to use modules is the key to XOOPS success, and I am quite excited with the progress and support that we're slowly getting for "Basic Module Pack"!

Once again - if anybody sees something that could be improved or simplified, let us know how or even help us in doing it, and we'll very grateful!

The next thing on my list of things to do is to document the process and the techniques and create an updated "Module Development Guide". Anybody who is interested in working on this, please let me know. There is few tutorials floating around, so it would good to combine them into a one consistent document.

Quote:

However, if you want to draw a parallel with the pressures typically placed on a commercial board of directors, council members should accept that if they fail to complete their tasks in a reasonable time frame they'll get canned and lose their Beemer.

#7Posted on: 2011/8/11 15:03
Re: Suggestions to Creation of a NEW Xoops Council...

I'm sorry. I'm confused.Peekay you suggest drawing parallels between a commercial structure and a non commercial structure to conclude that council members 'get canned if they fail...' (sic) and then append that they 'lose their Beemer'.Aren't these two entirely different things? And isn't the second premised on an entirely different motivation for joining the council in the first place?I don't believe it is very useful to make non-applicable analogies as a basis for recommendations. I believe it masks the real issue and oversimplifies a complex problem.XOOPs is not a commercial enterprise in any conventional definition and you do yourself a disservice if you let that analogy prejudice your reasoning.In a non-profit orginization, or NGO, or co-operative venture the best 'council' is one that is divorced from operation. Others here have expanded on an ontology where 'team leaders' drive product, but failed to complete the picture where the 'council' drives process. They do not make 'rules' or 'policy', they simply ensure that rules and policy are followed and, in rare circumstances, provide direction where rules and policy leave a gap or gray area.Why anyone would expect XOOPs to run better with any other system eludes me, but I digress.I'll repeat that all this deliberation is irrelevant right now as the primary factors of discord grossly outweigh any administrative solution...When everyone understands what real options we have to consider, then we can make a plan and formulate a structure to achieve our objectives.Sorry if this sounds personal, that is not my intention. I'm just trying to temper sparks that could initiate troublesome distractions.

#8Posted on: 2011/8/12 13:21
Re: Suggestions to Creation of a NEW Xoops Council...

Quote:

Mamba wrote:2) If the Council rejects my proposal, I can go to the Community and raise the issue there. If after a discussion, the community overwhelmingly supports that, then the Council should take it into consideration.

This is a weird and contorted thing to do. Taking it to the community should be something the council does. Not an individual that doesn't like what the council is doing. Then you are circumventing the council and challenging its authority. You should be able to ask the council for the communities direction before making a decision but the council's decision should be final.

Quote:

The current problem arrived when two of Council members, instead of raising the issue of changing project structure to the Council, as they should, went to a private mailing list and started voting over there on the XOOPS project structure. That's like having a coup d'etat.

Would they bring it up to the Council, there would be a voting and decision would be made. If they were unhappy with the voting, they could raise it to the community.

So personally I don't think it's a Council problem, but a problem with not following the process, and actually trying to go around the process.

If a council member has issue with another it should never have been brought out in public period.. We see where we are at now when two council members butted heads in public...

Quote:

I like your idea of adding members of the community "at large".

Maybe we should add one or two people who have heavily invested into XOOPS, e.g. somebody who currently has the most XOOPS sites, because he would be directly impacted by any negative changes in XOOPS.

Or somebody who built a strong business providing XOOPS-based solutions, and his livelihood depends on XOOPS.

You can also get insight and direction from someone who uses the stuff on a daily basis as well.

Should make sure you have outside module programmers on the council and non programmer users so you can make sure you get a full picture to make proper decisions. If everyone on the council is a programmer and knows Xoops like the back of their hand it doesn't help out the newbie that doesn't have a clue and will be less likely to press for changes that will benefit newer users. This would not be the same as going to the community because council members would be privy to things going on that the community wouldn't and shouldn't know.

Quote:

What do you think?

Another thing - we need to have an yearly performance review of team leaders, based on their list of objectives. Are those things happening that should be happening? If they are not, then the person in charge should be held accountable. The last thing that we want is to have a "social club" of people who like nice titles.

Any peer review may want to be done by a group outside the council.. But you should have a way to remove members that are not for the betterment of the community. Should also have a method of making sure someone is active in the council if they are on it as well.

Quote:

And it's not required that a particular person has to do it himself. They can delegate, they can ask somebody else to help them, if they are having temporary time problems. For example, Rune had time issues due to his wife's car accident, and I was helping him with his tasks.

Not sure this is a good idea for other council members to take up. Their duties should be able to be delegated to non council members other than voting. Having one council member vote for another then makes that council member have a "super vote" of 2 or more votes which is not kosher to me...

Quote:

So review the task list and ask yourself: are those tasks in a particular team happening? If not, why not? Who is in charge? What should be changed in order to ensure that those things start happening. What has a particular team leader done for the last one or two years in regards to his task list if there is nothing going on? If nothing has been done, should we ask a team leader to leave and ask the team to elect a new leader?

#9Posted on: 2011/8/12 13:47
Re: Suggestions to Creation of a NEW Xoops Council...

@ Rodney:Quote:

Not sure this is a good idea for other council members to take up. Their duties should be able to be delegated to non council members other than voting. Having one council member vote for another then makes that council member have a "super vote" of 2 or more votes which is not kosher to me...

??????????????

Who said about me voting for Rune or Trabis?I was helping Rune with his "tasks" as posted here. NOBODY can EVER vote for another member!!!! That would be a violation!

Where did you read it? Rodney, I think, you read it too fast and missed the meaning and jumped too quickly to a conclusion

As you see there are 2 sits available, one for "Documentation Team" and one for "Community Coordination/Support Team". Due to inactivity, my place in "Modules Development Team" is also available. If DJ forks the project, then it sums to 4. There is a lot of space for "new" diversity.

I think 7 is a lucky number and will offer a better representation of XOOPS interests.

It is important that Council members vote accordingly to the interests of the team they represent, not to their personal ones. I'm just saying this is not a vanity position but a responsible one.

That said, soon or latter (better soon), the Council will be called to recrute itself.