Indian authorities cleared one of Tibetan Buddhism’s most revered lamas on Friday in an investigation into $1.35 million in cash discovered last month at his headquarters in northern India, a news report said. Rajwant Sandhu, the top civil servant in Himachal Pradesh State, said the money found during a raid on the monastery of the Karmapa, above, Tibetan Buddhism’s third most important leader, had been donated by his followers, the Press Trust of India news agency reported. The Karmapa had no links to the money since the affairs of his trust are managed by his followers, Ms. Sandhu said. “The Karmapa is a revered religious leader of the Buddhists, and the government has no intentions to interfere in religious affairs of the Buddhists,” she said, according to the P.T.I. Last week, the state police said the Karmapa’s followers violated Indian tax and foreign currency laws in collecting the donations.

How foolish you are, grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention! - Vasubandhu

Meaning?Projecion number one: Greg is deluded, or, what Greg says is deluded?Where or what exactly was deluded about my post?PS Thanks for the rain of compassion, just make sure it's compassion and not patronisation. Sometimes it is hard to tell the two apart.

The "Buktham Rinpoche," or letter from HHDL regarding Karmapa incarnations, is an institution that's been around for some time, Greg.....while it's true that HHDL didn't have direct involvement in recognition, I'd argue that he doesn't now, either....yes, I know about the vision he says he had, etc., but this was only after HE Tai Situ Rinpoche brought the "nomination" before HHDL. Fact is, there has been indirect involvement from HHDL in past incarnations.

Also, lest we forget, HE Shamar Rinpoche originally agreed with everyone else re HHGK Orgyen Tinlay Dorje, before changing his tack.....but let's not rehash the whole thing, eh? It serves no purspose.

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Interesting you should bring that up, today was the first time I have heard this information. It is something that I will definitely be discussing with some of my teachers and Greek vajra siblings soon (not on dharmawheel though)!

From the (translated) intro: The 17 Karmapa will not be arrested or prosecuted, either for money laundering or tax evasion. But Buddhist holiness is asked to familiarize themselves with the Indian rules, and acquire a business.

Those in this thread previously whining about the quality of Indian reporting of the Karmapa case cannot fail to have noticed a stream of pro-Orgyen Thinley editorial pieces published in the mainstream Indian press:

I see in the latest piece ('The Karmapa is an icon he deserves more respect') Orgyen Thinley has been promoted from his previous position as 'the third highest figure in Tibetan Buddhism' to being 'like the Archbishop of Canterbury or head of the Greek Orthodox Church, second only to the pope'.

The irony is exquisite.

I wonder what the Archbishop of Canterbury, and indeed the Patriarch of Constantinople, would make of having to report to the Pope? Something similar, I think, to what Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje would have made at having to report to the Dalai Lama.

The future actions of Orgyen Thinley in this matter will demonstrate whether or not he is indeed the incarnation of Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje far better than any prediction letter, or recognition by senior Kagyu Tulkus, or by the Dalai Lama. Karmapas have, after all, always been self-recognizing.

The future actions of Orgyen Thinley in this matter will demonstrate whether or not he is indeed the incarnation of Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje far better than any prediction letter, or recognition by senior Kagyu Tulkus, or by the Dalai Lama. Karmapas have, after all, always been self-recognizing

Agreed...and so far, it seems pretty clear, despite the stuff being thrown at him.

Last edited by conebeckham on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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For me, things will only become clear in the long term. The retirement of the Dalai Lama from political life could see some quite drastic changes in the Tibetan political landscape. If Orgyen Thinley is to take up a very central political role, as many of his followers want him to do, what will be the effect on the Karma Kagyu school? The danger is that, against Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje's wishes, the distinction between Kagyu and Gelug becomes more and more eroded as the transmission lineages are blended together. Likewise, the distinction between the heads of the lineages, and leaders of the Tibetan government in exile, may become more and more eroded.

Dharma friends of mine who are supporters of Orgyen Thinley assure me his is committed to the autonomy of the Kagyu tradition. I hope they are right; if he succeeds in protecting the Kagyu from political interference, and ultimately from dissolultion as an autonomous lineage, it will convince me that he carries the blessing of Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje. Nobody doubts he carries the blessings of H.H. Dalai Lama, of course - but this is not the same as being the Karmapa.

Of course, many don't care about such distinctions. That is fine; I am merely pointing out that they were important to the 16th Karmapa.

sherabpa wrote: Interesting perspective. Also known as 'blind faith'. Doesn't tend to work out to well, according to some dead guy called Buddha, but what did he know? Things change, maybe blind faith is ok now.

Blind faith is never ok but faith based on careful investigation, personal experience and familiarity with the teachings is quite acceptable. In fact it's necessary otherwise at times of difficulty, confusion or uncertainty one might abandon the practice.

Yes, and a common ground we can all agree on is that the 16th Karmapa wanted to retain the autonomy of the Kagyu school from the Gelug, and was not interested in becoming a politician.

Now in the interests of clear-headed, rational, open faith: why does Ogyen Trinley seem to be becoming a politician, and one who is, according to many of his followers, a subordinate of the Dalai Lama?

Is it that he changed his mind about these matters? If so, what were his reasons?Is it that incarnation lineages do not necessarily share the intentions of their predecessors, that 'things change'? If so, what meaning is there to being a reincarnation of Karmapa? Why should anyone care who Ogyen Trinley was in a previous life?Or will Ogyen Trinley, as I have been told, resist these changes, despite the efforts of his followers to usher them in?

If Ogyen Trinley has somewhere denied he is a subordinate or successor of the Dalai Lama, as I have been told he did, can someone direct me to that?

"...However, in the 900 years of their history the Karmapas have been entirely spiritual, even as gurus to the emperors of China in the 12th century. "For … 900 years," he told the Times of India in March 2009, "the Karmapa has been a very apolitical figure … who has concentrated solely on spiritual leadership, not involved in any way with governmental leadership. So I think it would be very difficult to change that historical pattern overnight and turn the role of the Karmapa into something more than strictly a spiritual teacher."

When I met him in November, he reiterated that his spiritual role required freedom of movement. "Traditionally the Karmapa travelled a lot to different places to meet the people who wanted to see him. Ever since I became the Karmapa I lost my personal freedom and choice but I have gained the opportunity of benefiting others. But sometimes I cannot play the role of Karmapa anymore. I don't have the right environment."

What distresses him is to be caught in the game of politics. The Indian government have offered no explanation for denying him permission to travel. When they cancelled the 2010 Europe tour, word leaked out that the tour was "too big and for too long". Nonetheless, simpler itineraries over shorter periods were also turned down without explanation.

Now for the first time he categorically disclaims any possibility of succession to the Dalai Lama. Clearly the strain was becoming intolerable.

"There is already a system in place for the Dalai Lama's regency. It is not necessary to already be an important public figure in order to become the regent, if one has the capability. I have the responsibility of being the spiritual leader of a lineage and I don't need extra responsibility. I cannot do beyond what a human being can do. The name "Karmapa" means the one who takes responsibility for all the buddhas' activities. This is overwhelming enough. I don't need more."

Yes, and a common ground we can all agree on is that the 16th Karmapa wanted to retain the autonomy of the Kagyu school from the Gelug, and was not interested in becoming a politician.

AFAIK the four main schools have always been autonomous but other than the dispute within the tradition itself over HHK is there anything that would indicate the Karma Kagyu is under threat? Just because HHK is spiritually very close to HHDL doesn't mean the tradition is in danger of being subsumed by the Gelugpas. Or does it? Maybe I'm missing something. Could the close connection between these two wonderful beings lead to a greater appreciation of both traditions amongst their respective followers? If so that would be a good thing wouldn't it.

Now in the interests of clear-headed, rational, open faith: why does Ogyen Trinley seem to be becoming a politician, and one who is, according to many of his followers, a subordinate of the Dalai Lama?

The Guardian article quoted above indicates this isn't happening but it's also possible that at this time of tremendous hardship for the Tibetan people and with their culture under real threat of destruction they naturally look to a powerful and charismatic figure like HHK in the hope he will guide them in their exile and help them in their struggle in much the same way HHDL has done. As for being subordinate I think HHK might have received teachings and initiations from HHDL so that would mean there is a guru-disciple relationship to consider.

Is it that he changed his mind about these matters? If so, what were his reasons?

He may be a victim of circumstances and necessity but again in the Guardian article he seems quite clear about what he wants to do with his life.

Is it that incarnation lineages do not necessarily share the intentions of their predecessors, that 'things change'? If so, what meaning is there to being a reincarnation of Karmapa? Why should anyone care who Ogyen Trinley was in a previous life?

Great lamas often have a different aspect in different lives according to causes and conditions. For example this life HE Trijang Rinpoche is a married layman who lives in America. Who could have imagined the previous incarnation even considering such a thing? Lama Thubten Yeshe's incarnation is a Spanish man who wants to teach through the medium of film and television. I think there are many examples similar to these so yes things do change and lamas also change to suit those new conditions. Bodhisattvas will do whatever is necessary to benefit living beings.

When it is claimed that Ogyen Trinley is the second ranking lama in Tibetan Buddhism, as we often hear nowadays, it is not the guru-disciple relationship that it being referred to. The Dalai Lama has many disciples, but only one second ranking lama. What is being claimed is that Karmapa is the subordinate of the Dalai Lama and, in some unexplained sense, his successor.

Anyway, thank you for the link to the Guardian article. Obviously, most Tibetans do not read the Guardian - perhaps this explains why so many of them seem to be acting in contradiction to the wishes Orgyen Trinley has expressed there.

The article also gives us something empirical to consider. We can all agree on this: Karmapas keep their promises, politicians break them. When we look at the state of Tibetan Buddhism in 10 or 20 years time, what will we see? If we see a Karmapa with no involvement in politics, and an independent Kagyu school, then we will have seen something worthy of the title 'Karmapa'. Otherwise, we will have seem something worthy of the title 'politician'.

sherabpa wrote: When we look at the state of Tibetan Buddhism in 10 or 20 years time, what will we see? If we see a Karmapa with no involvement in politics, and an independent Kagyu school, then we will have seen something worthy of the title 'Karmapa'. Otherwise, we will have seem something worthy of the title 'politician'.

Actually, according to "Tibetan High Tulku Hierarchy," HH Sakya Trizin is the number two guy....HH Karmapa is third in line....if you care about such things. From a purely political point of view, the Panchen Lama would be the number two guy, at least in recent Tibetan historical terms.

In Tibet, you know, politcs and tulkus went together. Although HH Orgyen Tinley Dorje stated something to the effect that Karmapas have never been involved in politics, that's not entirely true. At various times throughout Tibetan history, HH Karmapa, HH Sakya Trizin, and other high tulkus inside and outside the Geluk lineage have played political roles, both in Tibet, and in China, Mongolia and other lands bordering "Tibet" proper.

It's possible that the Tibetan Government structure will move toward a more democratic model, and less direct influence from High Lamas may be part of that. Also notable that, in Tibetan politics, the Geluk order has been the most influential for more than a century, and I would wonder about the Tibetan political machine supporting a move toward Kagyu power. It's my wish that all of the institutional lineages remain relevant, and equal, and that Lamas focus on propagating the Dharma instead of involving themselves primarily in politics. But, you know, public figures are political by nature.

As for the "Tibetan Cause" having a figurehead on the World Stage, I don't know what will happen.

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