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I just ordered the Cross Spectrum labs usb mic so I can get started with REW soon.

I have been digging around for data on that loopback issue today. Do you use it for subwoofer distances? I found this info which says it doesn't work for subs...

If using a loopback as a reference REW can calculate the delay through the system being measured and show it in the measurement Info panel as "System Delay" in milliseconds, with the equivalent distance in feet and metres shown in brackets. Note that delay values are not accurate for subwoofer measurements due to the limited bandwidth of the subwoofer response, the delay estimate is based on the location of the peak of the impulse response and subwoofers have a broad peak and a delayed response.

You can certainly use rew to verify subwoofer/mains alignment when using loopback. There are different ways to do it including; set physical distance then adjust based on SPL support in XO range, compare impulse responses with narrow bandwidth sweeps, compare phase alignment through XO range. The first one doesn't need loopback, the others do.

I see a mic input in the back of the Datasat so what is this used for?

These sort of features are easily found in super cheap processors.

To tell patrons there is a fire and proceed to nearest exit, or to tell your obnoxious daughter's boyfriend to shut up during the film. Not sure but maybe KARAOKE.

Cheap processors from billion dollar companies.

It is official Auro RS20is are getting final QC'd by Auro, shipments with the xtra card will proceed as expected now but wait for subsequent Auro changes next month. If you want an auro unit the next couple of weeks is when theyl ship in limited numbers.

As to Atmos, there are 3 dynamics at play, Momentum Data Systems needs to release a module, in the cinema arena Dolby competes fiercily with Datasat so some political resistance is there, But as a Dolby Licensee on the consumer side they work very effectively together Dolby TRUE HD PLz2 card being case in point which sound great.

Soo.. with such dynamics pulling on one another Datasat will be first with Auro but not first with Atmos but with its bullet proof multichannel platform and through it's full commitment to all immerssive programs (atmos being well under way) Datasat will do Atmos.

So if for example Trinnov was able to deliver their box, understand that this is their first rodeo with codecs and hdmi, then if there were few bugs on the basic operation looks like they will probably be the first with Atmos I ve heard xmas but I would hedge bet and say January-Feb next year. Then when the MDS atmos module and possible hdmi 2.0 8 input and 4input cards/upgrade (for 4k ) is available we would see the other companies come out and then Datasat wont be first but second or third in line, so summer 2015 for Atmos is my best estimate reading between the lines.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT AT THAT TIME YOU WILL HAVE THE MOST PROVEN PLUG AND PLAY 24 CHANNEL SOLUTION AT HOME. WHILE THE JAPANESE GIANTS DO 7.1.4

If you cant wait for Trinnov due to impending installation and have the means buy rs20i now with auro and flip in January Fec to Trinnov if you cant wait for Decoded Atmos. As I said you cna extract some semblance of height channels with auromatic or neo x to hold you over.

With the Datasat getting Auro 3D, Atmos just announced for the consumer market via Pioneer, Denon, Marantz, etc. receivers so I suspect it to come to the Datasat at some point plus dts Neo:X and Dolby PLIIz not to mention Audyssey DSX can these 4 or 5 exist in the same piece of hardware? Concerning Atmos, do you think PLIIz goes away in favor of Atmos considering they are both Dolby technologies? Is Atmos even a matrix technology like PLIIz, if not then does that suggest PLIIz would still be available in hardware with Atmos? Then there is the speaker layout. We obviously can't rearrange our speakers when we switch from say Neo:X to Auro to Atmos etc, so are the speaker layouts even consistent with each other? If not a person could only design their room to be fully compatible with one technology thus when using the others they end up running a compromised layout. Damn this is getting confusing.

No disrespect to Peter, but we could do with the official line from Datasat. Although it's looking like there will be nothing immediate for Rs20i owners as far as Atmos is concerned. Which is not good.

Putting aside Atmos for a moment...Auro 3D does look promising. However, the majority of movies encrypted with Auro Soundtracks are Tamil/Indian in nature. I'm sure they're great movies. However I'm looking for the Hollywood blockbusters encrypted with Auro. There are a few.

But the next issue is that these limited American flicks with Auro soundtracks are commercial releases. We havnt as yet had any confirmation from Auro as to the availability of these discs. Yes, you have the up mixing algorithm. But as good as it is, it's no substitute for natively encrypted material.

The development of Auro 3D for the Datasat platform won't have been an overnight development. Surely when development for AURO started on the Datasat platform, then the Japanese were already aware of and on with developing Atmos for there receivers?

And Atmos has been utilised since 2012 by mixers for the big blockbusters..so surely at the point Datasat started developing Auro, they'd have been better off pulling out all the stops to make sure they had the Atmos licensing in order to start development so around the time the first native Atmos discs start to hit the shelves, the RS20i would be good to go?

So if as Peter says, Atmos hits the RS20i next summer, or later..what are folks going to do? Stick with Auro which as yet has no native material? Or adopt Atmos with its native material?

Which makes me wonder, is Auro going to end up simply as a stop gap,till Atmos comes along?

Well I was able to anser one of my questions. The Atmos Pioneer products are now on their website and I see in the specs that PLIIz is still present so Atmos can co-exist with PLIIz. Since Pioneer does not use Audyssey I'll have to wait for the specs of the Denon and Marantz to see if DSX remains. All three manufacturers have had PLIIz and Neo:X and the Atmos Pioneer products still have Neo:X listed.

Also note that storm sdp16 is already shipping with Auro so not first there either...

Playing devils advocate, with the announcements made by Dolby this week with regards to delivery systems and native material for Atmos, I can't see Auros position in the market other than a niche uppmixer with the odd American film natively encrypted - well there is the dreamworks deal..but these are only of slight benefit when the little native material eventually trickles through onto disc.

It's like bluray and HD DVD, but with audio codecs Atmos and Auro. But I think HD DVD possibly had more support than Auro does.

The bigger problem to me between these two is that consumers can't just "pick" one or both. The speaker layouts are different. If I choose an Atmos layout of 7 or 9 "bed" speakers and then add ceiling heights I am fine, but Auro would want to see height speakers above all of my "bed" speakers. But Atmos presumably wouldn't be using those surround heights, correct?

I guess I answered my own question in that I could do a full Auro setup and it would pretty much include everything I needed for Atmos, but its possible lots of speakers could go unused (barring upmixing) by native Atmos.

The bigger problem to me between these two is that consumers can't just "pick" one or both. The speaker layouts are different. If I choose an Atmos layout of 7 or 9 "bed" speakers and then add ceiling heights I am fine, but Auro would want to see height speakers above all of my "bed" speakers. But Atmos presumably wouldn't be using those surround heights, correct?

I guess I answered my own question in that I could do a full Auro setup and it would pretty much include everything I needed for Atmos, but its possible lots of speakers could go unused (barring upmixing) by native Atmos.

Or do I misunderstand something?

That's the kicker for me - the risk of incompatibility in speaker layouts between the two and all those potentially idle speakers. As both Datasat and Storm Audio will need to address this issue I do hope that I can have my cake and eat it to by having a unit that uses all speakers using both codecs. Storm Audio have indicated Atmos is due for their units in Q1 2015 so they will be the leaders in this issue.

Why not setup a room for the Atmos layout if people think that will be the "victor" in these two formats, and then use the Auro up mixing available in the RS20i for now until Atmos decoding is available? All companies like Theta, Datasat, Storm, ADA are going to have to wait a while to get their decoding solutions from Dolby- I don't see any of them being a "leader". First to market is rarely the best in the market- it does happen occasionally, but not that often.

Auro was an easy choice for Datasat- they were already working with them in the commercial cinema world (Auro/Barco/Datasat). Whether or not it ends up being useful is anyone's guess, Dolby certainly carries MUCH more weight in the industry (both film and electronics)- so it is perfectly logical to assume Atmos will dominate in regards to these newer High-Channel-Count-Surround-Formats. DTS will likely have a very effective solution as well, and that will most certainly be adopted by Datasat and others quickly too.

This is the very genesis of these types of systems- they will likely not be utilized as well initially as they will say 6 years from now- just like each of their predecessors. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss…

Companies with card frame chassis and proven track records are likely to adapt very quickly: I can see the trinnov processor being a very powerful machine, once everything is worked-out (I too, feel that Q2 of 2015 is likely the real shipping window for initial units). Datasat and even Theta will probably have Atmos solutions quicker than one might think (Mr. Kessler was helpful to Dolby when they were developing Atmos- before it was named), and Datasat has their ducks in a row with Dolby now that their consumer licensing is handled.

One thing to remember is that these folks at Datasat have actually been rather responsive to feature requests, as well as trying to offer newer features that people didn't even consider (the fact that Auro can at least for now up mix gives these processors some advantage over their competition that cannot- and has many fewer channels to boot).

So…the ever present question: sit on the fence and wait or make a decision and jump-in….

Brave June 22, 2012 (15)
Taken 2 October 5, 2012 (15)
Chasing Mavericks October 26, 2012 (25)
Ah Boys to Men November 6, 2012 (20)
Life of Pi November 21, 2012 (40)
Rise of the Guardians November 21, 2012 (44)
Back to 1942 November 29, 2012
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey December 14, 2012 (80–100)
CZ12 December 20, 2012
The Guillotines December 20, 2012
The Last Tycoon December 22, 2012
Mama January 18, 2013
Race 2 January 25, 2013
ABCD: Any Body Can Dance February 8, 2013
Journey to the West: Conquering the Demons February 10, 2013
A Good Day to Die Hard February 14, 2013
Oz the Great and Powerful March 8, 2013 (400)
The Croods March 22, 2013
G.I. Joe: Retaliation March 28, 2013
Trance April 5, 2013
Commando April 12, 2013
Oblivion April 19, 2013
Iron Man 3 May 3, 2013 (450)
Star Trek Into Darkness May 17, 2013
Epic May 24, 2013
Man of Steel June 14, 2013
Monsters University June 21, 2013 (700; 250 in North America)
The Heat June 28, 2013
Pacific Rim July 12, 2013
Turbo July 17, 2013
Mr. Go July 17, 2013 (Released in Asia)
D-Day July 19, 2013 (Released in India)
The Wolverine July 26, 2013
Percy Jackson: Sea of Monsters August 7, 2013
Planes August 9, 2013
Elysium August 9, 2013
The Grandmaster August 30,2013
Insidious: Chapter 2 September 13, 2013
Lost Place September 19, 2013
Gravity October 4, 2013 (1,000; 600 in North America)
Metallica: Through the Never October 4, 2013
Young Detective Dee: Rise of the Sea Dragon October 13, 2013 (Released in China)
Ender's Game November 1, 2013
En Solitaire November 6, 2013 (Released in France)
Thor: The Dark World (3D only) November 8, 2013
The Hunger Games: Catching Fire November 22, 2013
Frozen November 27, 2013
The White Storm December 5, 2013 (Released in China)
The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug December 13,
Police Story December 24, 2013 (Released in China)
The Secret Life of Walter Mitty December 25, 2013
El Niño January 1, 2014
The Congress January 1, 2014
Mindscape January 1, 2014
I, Frankenstein January 24, 2014
The Monkey King February 1, 2014
Tarzan February 20, 2014 (Released in Germany)
Mr. Peabody & Sherman March 7, 2014
300: Rise of an Empire March 7, 2014
Noah March 28, 2014
Captain America: The Winter Soldier April 4, 2014
Rio 2 April 11, 2014
Transcendence April 18, 2014
Iceman 3D April 25, 2014 (Release in China)
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 May 2, 2014
Godzilla May 16, 2014
X-Men: Days of Future Past May 23, 2014
Overheard 3 May 29, 2014 (Release in China)
Maleficent May 30, 2014
Farewell To My Concubine May 30, 2014
Open Windows June 1, 2014
Enchanted Kingdom June 3, 2014
Edge of Tomorrow June 6, 2014
How to Train Your Dragon 2 June, 13, 2014
Jersey Boys June 20, 2014
Transformers: Age of Extinction June 27, 2014
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes July 11, 2014
Guardians of the Galaxy August 1, 2014
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles August 8, 2014
The Expendables 3 August 15, 2014
The Maze Runner September 19, 2014
The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies December 17, 2014

And of course there is 'The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies' coming later this year and 'Avengers: Age of Ultron' coming next summer.

Plus there might be some catalogue titles remixed in Atmos for release on Blu-ray.

Sorry Sanjay, I'd just got in and did a quick cut and paste, omitting the few obvious ones I could see. I appreciate Datasat and Barco have the commercial connection with Auro 11.1, I would have thought it logical that priority be given to the more prominent codec that would be supported by native material also.

If Datasat want to support Auro, that's great, but I can't see it a wise decision giving it priority over Atmos, which seems to be going from strength to strength.

It also kind of leaves the LS10 in a peculiar position Imho with Auro support as it's ace card, which is now being over shadowed by an all out assault on the domestic market by Atmos.

I'm not sure if my points come across as valid or not, but if we're having to wait atleast another 12 months for Atmos..then it comes across as a bit of an own goal by Datasat, again imho.

I'd just got in and did a quick cut and paste, omitting the few obvious ones I could see.

No problemo. I just wanted to keep the comparison fair by limiting both lists to Hollywood blockbusters (good idea on your part, since those titles are the most likely to appear on BD).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billybobjimbob

I appreciate Datasat and Barco have the commercial connection with Auro 11.1, I would have thought it logical that priority be given to the more prominent codec that would be supported by native material also.

Maybe they're going after different markets. The Auro upgrade for the RS20i is around $3K? Onkyo has a current AV receiver ($699 MSRP, street price lower) that will get a free software upgrade to Atmos in September. They've also announced HTiB systems with Atmos.

Auro appears to be aiming for the high end market (Datasat RS20i & LS10, Storm Audio SDP 16, Auriga). While I'm sure there will eventually be high end pre-pros with Atmos, at the moment Dolby seems to be aiming at the general AVR/HTiB buying consumer.

No problemo. I just wanted to keep the comparison fair by limiting both lists to Hollywood blockbusters (good idea on your part, since those titles are the most likely to appear on BD). Maybe they're going after different markets. The Auro upgrade for the RS20i is around $3K? Onkyo has a current AV receiver ($699 MSRP, street price lower) that will get a free software upgrade to Atmos in September. They've also announced HTiB systems with Atmos.

Auro appears to be aiming for the high end market (Datasat RS20i & LS10, Storm Audio SDP 16, Auriga). While I'm sure there will eventually be high end pre-pros with Atmos, at the moment Dolby seems to be aiming at the general AVR/HTiB buying consumer.

Dolby seem to be targeting the entire market. As you've rightly pointed out they'll have HTIB solutions from Onkyo, receivers ranging from entry level Onkyos, Yamaha, Denon/Marantz, Pioneer..to the other end of the market with processors from Storm Audio, Trinnov and even Steinway Lyngdorf all in on the act and providing Atmos decoding.

I do recall a segment on the Auro website mentioning partnerships with Denon and marantz. But nothing further seems to have transpired. We'll just have to see how effective the Auro upmixer is at pulling the height information from a normal 5/7 channel track! (I'm pulling your leg there-I appreciate theres no height info and it's simply processed info from the audio track).

That's the kicker for me - the risk of incompatibility in speaker layouts between the two and all those potentially idle speakers. As both Datasat and Storm Audio will need to address this issue I do hope that I can have my cake and eat it to by having a unit that uses all speakers using both codecs. Storm Audio have indicated Atmos is due for their units in Q1 2015 so they will be the leaders in this issue.

How I am planning on working around this issue in our new theater will be to run the DataSat into an Ashley 24.24M with an Auro preset and an Atmos preset depending on the channel configuration. We are putting 12 speakers in the walls (7 bed plus heights on all but the rears) and four in the ceiling. When playing Auro the four in ceiling speakers will be pushed by the single Auro VOG channel.

How I am planning on working around this issue in our new theater will be to run the DataSat into an Ashley 24.24M with an Auro preset and an Atmos preset depending on the channel configuration. We are putting 12 speakers in the walls (7 bed plus heights on all but the rears) and four in the ceiling. When playing Auro the four in ceiling speakers will be pushed by the single Auro VOG channel.

You would route single auro vog signal into all four atmos ceilings.NOTE: You don't make atmos layout conform to auro's, the other way around, duh! But the Qsys has a way of manipulating yyz metadata to accomplish this side rears issue I was told. Its used in all mixing rooms that handle both. Extremely HIFI but perhaps priced as much as a surround processor.

You would route single auro vog signal into all four atmos ceilings.NOTE: You don't make atmos layout conform to auro's, the other way around, duh! But the Qsys has a way of manipulating yyz metadata to accomplish this side rears issue I was told. Its used in all mixing rooms that handle both. Extremely HIFI but perhaps priced as much as a surround processor.

Oh interesting. Yeah I'll definitely give them a call. Plans for the theater call for all the surround, height and ceiling speakers to be Neumann KH 120s (13 120s total, yes my electrician is going to have some fun). Neumann just released the digital version of the KH 120 with support for AES-3 which when paired with a QSC would keep the audio digital right to the speaker. Nifty!

The bottleneck for these high end prepros is again: MOMENTUM DATA SYSTEMS ATMOS PROCESSOR CARD the makers of the 4 and 8 input HDMI card widely used by the processors in question. In Albiorix we had a service line item to debug this card. they are a bit slow.

So all players except trinnovwhich is wholy software based have that wait. It does not help Datsat that Dolby is pissed at the thousands of cp-650 processors they lost sale to the ap-20, they threatened with an unfair competition suit for the sheer value of the ap-20, Ive heard.

From cut throat competitors in the cinema field these companies have a dual personality when dealing with each other on the home end, as a home products licensee Datasat has all the rights of every other Dolby licensee is just a matter for the datasat people to drink a glass of water and putting themselves in the taking to dolby mindset. The wheels are already turning on the electronic parts.

Sorry for the newbie-like question but any comments/opinions on how the Trinnov Altitude compares to the RS20i?

Well no one can say interms of sound quality as the altitude is yet to be released. If it uses the same dacs as in the trinnov mc then I prefer the dacs on my RS20i.

Other than that, both units are modular and upgradable. The Datasat will likely max out at 24 channels where as the Altitude will be 32 channels max. But then you can daisy chain 2 rs20is together.

Both units are incredibly flexible.

Both have great room correction. Trinnov has 3D remapping which is very good and useful especially in room which have limitations to speaker layouts.

The RS20i is in a good position to receieve Dirac Unison when officially available and this may make the Datasat extra special.

The best thing about the trinnov is it's based on Intel processing rather than dsp chips. So it's unlikely that many new codecs will require new hardware on the trinnov. Having said that, the RS20i has oodles of processing power and more can be added if required.

IMO, the ultimate will be an RS20i running into a Trinnov MC then a bank of outboard dacs.

But there certainly is nothing wrong with the trinnov dacs, they are indeed superb. It's just I prefer the sound from my RS20i dac stages.

I am giving serious consideration to a major updating of my A/V system. It is essentially a 7.1 layout with the left and right front channels quad-amplified. Presently I am using Behringer crossovers and Rane audio delays to achieve time alignment of the various drivers and an Audio Precision System One to determine optimal delay and crossover settings. Have any of you used your RS20i to time align multi driver speaker enclosures? If so I would appreciate hearing your comments. One thing that concerns me is if the RS20i time delay incremental adjustments are fine enough. The Rane units allow for adjustments to hundredths of a millisecond.