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Since we're on the subject of stupidity, learn to use periods. (I like how you said that I'm not worth having a conversation with before proceeding to respond to my last post.)

And unfortunately I have other obligations at the moment (exam tomorrow), so I can't do that at the moment.

Lastly, using a sample size of roughly 15 games to rank several players is completely illogical. This especially holds weight when players like Miller (15th season) are in the discussion. He's been consistentlyexcellent for a long period of time. Vasquez, on the other hand, has put up solid "career numbers" for 25% of the 2012-13 regular season.

Vasquez is an elite PG off the bench. Nothing more, nothing less. I love Grevis, but he's not our future. Almost anyone can see that. I wish you were right. But, you're not.

it just further confirms my point that u r just throwing household names out there that are known..u arent basing it off production or stats at all which is just ridiculous...vasquez is a starting pg in this league and he will lead this team now and the future nothing more nothing less...he showed what he is capable of when playing against the best pg in the league cp3..it was no fluke..with more time and a better supporting cast he will be even better...u guys think we will have an all star at every position lol...not gonna happen

too early in his career to fully judge him..give him another 2 seasons with a better lineup to play with then judge him...he has constantly shown improvement every year and thats all u can ask of him...sorry guys but derrick rose is not stepping through those doors anytime soon

I don't hate him in the least and he probably gets as much out of what he has as anyone....his major drawback is something that cant be taught or learned though, and that's a lack of footspeed/manueverability....this hurts him on both sides of the court and always will to some extent....

I can't see how he is still the same athlete out of college after 3 off seasons to improve his speed/quickness/hops with legit NBA trainers

oh ok so we would rather have a pg based off his last 15 seasons and not his current production am i understanding that right?? I dont think so buddy.................................... is that enough periods for u professor??

Once again, you drew the wrong conclusion and this reflects your inability to comprehend an argument without an extreme degree of personal bias. What I argued is that I would rather have a player who has a proven track record and continues to play at a high level rather than a Grevis Vasquez, who hasn't even had his version of a "career year" for a full season yet.

Originally Posted by RaisingTheBrow

You are also completely ignoring the fact that GV has showed HUGE improvement every year he has been in the NBA. People aren't excited about his current play based off of 15 games. They are excited about the potential next year or the year after if he keeps continuing to grow like he has been.

Once again, that doesn't matter. The question was name 18 better point guards than Vasquez. I was specifically responding to that part of his OP. Thus, I ranked the players assuming it was in the context of the present and not the future.

Otherwise, I could get away with saying that Drummond is a better center than Tyson Chandler because he has so much potential. I was specifically responding to that part of his OP.

Your improvement argument is noted, however. I think we have different ideas on where his ceiling lies. My personal opinion is that he's almost at, if not hit, his ceiling this season given his physical limitations. I understand where you are coming from, though.

Last edited by PelsFan2313; 12-03-2012 at 02:39 PM.

"I'm not going to allow my putative owner to answer that question, this is an NBA related press conference. Paul Tagliabue and Roger Goodell have collectively sung their praises of Tom and if uh ESPN has a problem with that tell Mr. Skipper to call me at my office."

it just further confirms my point that u r just throwing household names out there that are known..u arent basing it off production or stats at all which is just ridiculous...vasquez is a starting pg in this league and he will lead this team now and the future nothing more nothing less...he showed what he is capable of when playing against the best pg in the league cp3..it was no fluke..with more time and a better supporting cast he will be even better...u guys think we will have an all star at every position lol...not gonna happen

And you are basing your assessments based on a 15-game sample which is much more statistically illogical.

Take Aminu, for instance. People jumped on the AFA bandwagon based off a small sample of solid performances. Now, with 5-10 more games of NBA action, it is clear that his play was an anomaly. Furthermore, this specific situation exhibited how statistics don't always paint an accurate reflection of play. While his numbers were up, Aminu didn't add anything to his game. Instead, the only difference was that he finished at the rim at a more efficient rate. All in all, he still couldn't shoot, handle, or take care of the ball.

I'm not hoping for an all-star position at every starting level. I just want players with manageable liabilities. Vasquez, in my opinion, brings too much bad with the good to warrant starting minutes.

Once again, you drew the wrong conclusion and this reflects your inability to comprehend an argument without an extreme degree of personal bias. What I argued is that I would rather have a player who has a proven track record and continues to play at a high level rather than a Grevis Vasquez, who hasn't even had his version of a "career year" for a full season yet.

Once again, that doesn't matter. The question was name 18 better point guards than Vasquez. I was specifically responding to that part of his OP. Thus, I ranked the players assuming it was in the context of the present and not the future.

Otherwise, I could get away with saying that Drummond is a better center than Tyson Chandler because he has so much potential. I was specifically responding to that part of his OP.

Your improvement argument is noted, however. I think we have different ideas on where his ceiling lies. My personal opinion is that he's almost at, if not hit, his ceiling this season given his physical limitations. I understand where you are coming from, though.

no i just said that because u stated how miller performed for 15 years when the truth is miller is in steep decline and no where near what he used to be...and we are talking about the present not the future NOR THE PAST like you are trying to do...lets talk about production CURRENTLY this year..vasquez is in the top half of pg's like love it or hate it but it is what it is

And you are basing your assessments based on a 15-game sample which is much more statistically illogical.

Take Aminu, for instance. People jumped on the AFA bandwagon based off a small sample of solid performances. Now, with 5-10 more games of NBA action, it is clear that his play was an anomaly. Furthermore, this specific situation exhibited how statistics don't always paint an accurate reflection of play. While his numbers were up, Aminu didn't add anything to his game. Instead, the only difference was that he finished at the rim at a more efficient rate. All in all, he still couldn't shoot, handle, or take care of the ball.

I'm not hoping for an all-star position at every starting level. I just want players with manageable liabilities. Vasquez, in my opinion, brings too much bad with the good to warrant starting minutes.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/greivis_vasquez/..go there and u can compare very easily to your listy and u will see that 6or 7 dont stack up...yea it is only 15 games so far but there is nothing there to assume vasquez will all of a sudden fall off or his numbers will drop...there is reason to believe that they will increase tho looking at a healthy ad and eg getting back in the lineup...

And you are basing your assessments based on a 15-game sample which is much more statistically illogical.

Take Aminu, for instance. People jumped on the AFA bandwagon based off a small sample of solid performances. Now, with 5-10 more games of NBA action, it is clear that his play was an anomaly. Furthermore, this specific situation exhibited how statistics don't always paint an accurate reflection of play. While his numbers were up, Aminu didn't add anything to his game. Instead, the only difference was that he finished at the rim at a more efficient rate. All in all, he still couldn't shoot, handle, or take care of the ball.

I'm not hoping for an all-star position at every starting level. I just want players with manageable liabilities. Vasquez, in my opinion, brings too much bad with the good to warrant starting minutes.

oh no i wont let u get away with that 1 but nice try buddy ...please do not compare that lost looking,have no idea where im at guy we call chief lol...please stop my stomach hurts....afa is what he is and there is no ceiling for him only a floor unless he all of sudden grows a brain sometime soon

Vasquez would be perfect if we had a cat like Brandon Jennings ahead of him. But Vasquez turns the rock over too much and can't guard anyone. It's not hate. It's just the facts. I love me some Vasquez.

Vasquez would be perfect if we had a cat like Brandon Jennings ahead of him. But Vasquez turns the rock over too much and can't guard anyone. It's not hate. It's just the facts. I love me some Vasquez.

As a backup. But he is a liability physically.

his to numbers rank right there with westbrook rondo dwill and a few more js

It's clear that I can't convince you otherwise and that's ok. All I'm really saying is that we should at least wait until the season comes to an end before annointing GV "the future". Perhaps, even two. Clearly he's shown improvment as of this moment, but I'm afraid that his ceiling isn't as high as you believe it to be simply given his physical limitations (not to mention his turnovers, but that's another story). That's the last thing I have to say on the matter.

it just further confirms my point that u r just throwing household names out there that are known..u arent basing it off production or stats at all which is just ridiculous...vasquez is a starting pg in this league and he will lead this team now and the future nothing more nothing less...he showed what he is capable of when playing against the best pg in the league cp3..it was no fluke..with more time and a better supporting cast he will be even better...u guys think we will have an all star at every position lol...not gonna happen

Are we talking simple stats? Because if we are talking advanced stats- the stats that reflect more closely a player's overall production relative to usage, pace, etc. then Vasquez is still not in the top half. These guys are still ahead of him THIS YEAR

I think people who emphasize on vasques turning the ball over are just caught in the now moment of a bad game...yea he turns the ball over but so do the top pg's in this league..vasquez to avg/pg is 3.4...same as rondo,dwill,curry,lawson and westbrook but lower than some pretty good pg's like irving

Im sorry but i just have to point out i love how u made each one of those players u named plural like there are multiples of them in this league..think not

I'm not the grammar police, but since you are trying to be (and you're doing it wrong), I have to call you out on this. When a person uses an "apostrophe-s," it makes the word possessive, not plural as you suggest.

EX: The dogs played with their bones. Plural
EX: The dog's bone was white. Possessive

Moreover, how in the world are you trying to correct someone's grammar when you don't even use periods or any other punctuation? {Mod edit-please refrain from name calling}

I think people who emphasize on vasques turning the ball over are just caught in the now moment of a bad game...yea he turns the ball over but so do the top pg's in this league..vasquez to avg/pg is 3.4...same as rondo,dwill,curry,lawson and westbrook but lower than some pretty good pg's like irving

That may be true but he doesn't bring nearly as much as rondo, d will or westrbook...

I think people who emphasize on vasques turning the ball over are just caught in the now moment of a bad game...yea he turns the ball over but so do the top pg's in this league..vasquez to avg/pg is 3.4...same as rondo,dwill,curry,lawson and westbrook but lower than some pretty good pg's like irving

I am sorry, but somebody has to introduce you to advanced stats because you keep coming back to arguments that don't apply. Yes, Westbrook averaged 3.5 turnovers per game, but Vasquez turnover % is over 20 while Westbrook is at 14%. That is what matters, not total turnovers. The Hornets play at a snail's pace and get fewer possessions, and Vasquez still manages to turn the ball over at an alarming rate despite having so few possessions.

Just trying to help out, really. There are some arguments to play for Vasquez's play this season being above average, but pulling out assists per game or turnovers per game are not going to win that argument on a board with people as intelligent and savvy as this one

Are we talking simple stats? Because if we are talking advanced stats- the stats that reflect more closely a player's overall production relative to usage, pace, etc. then Vasquez is still not in the top half. These guys are still ahead of him THIS YEAR

That's 20. Plus you still got guys like Lawson, who we know is better, Rose and Rubio who are hurt, and 5 or 6 others that you can go either way on like Jose Calderon and Jeremy Lin.

It's not hate, just facts

im sorry but all those guys listed do not have better numbers this year ...lawson,teague,lowry,dragic(even),hill to name a few...mo williams doesnt either...sessions?? r u kidding me?? sorry ill take vasquez and his 8.7 assist/pg over sessions 4 pg same goes with walker

Wow I wish you can the best players on your team, but that's not how NBA works if you also call that stupid.
NBA is about making money.

BTW, Vasquez is not at his last year of the contract. Hornets has team option for two more years. To me, that's cash saving.

Originally Posted by NOH2313

A: I listed 18, learn to count.
B: I added two more to the list and that's now 20 (w/o even giving the topic serious time or thought).
C: If you don't think Nash, Curry, or Lowry are better PGs than Vasquez, then your homerism is plain embarrassing. I can understand if you don't buy Lin, however. He can be a bit polarizing, and for good reason (inconsistent).

Extremely stupid point. What does that have to do with the original question?

im sorry but all those guys listed do not have better numbers this year ...lawson,teague,lowry,dragic(even),hill to name a few...mo williams doesnt either...sessions?? r u kidding me?? sorry ill take vasquez and his 8.7 assist/pg over sessions 4 pg same goes with walker

Again, you counter advanced stats with simple stats. I guess we can't help you here. If you wanna believe, then fine, it's not our job to tell you there is no Santa, but don't come calling us haters when we are just objectively analyzing

I'm not the grammar police, but since you are trying to be (and you're doing it wrong), I have to call you out on this. When a person uses an "apostrophe-s," it makes the word possessive, not plural as you suggest.

EX: The dogs played with their bones. Plural
EX: The dog's bone was white. Possessive

Moreover, how in the world are you trying to correct someone's grammar when you don't even use periods or any other punctuation? {Mod edit-please refrain from name calling}

hey bro 1st off all im not spell checking nobody...what i meant is that they are by themselves in there own category and that there are not more than 1 of them type of players...not referring to punctuation or spelling so check yourself...i tyoe on here as if im teexting to someone..i am not writing an exam or trying to pass a text get it? but thanks for your schooling youngster