When I review the outline of Lamrim (which I understand is recognized by the Gelupka, Kagyu and Nyigma schools), I do not see any mention of Mahamudra (or Dzogchen for that matter). Does it fall into the "Emptiness Section" in the "Great Scope"?

catlady2112 wrote:When I review the outline of Lamrim (which I understand is recognized by the Gelupka, Kagyu and Nyigma schools), I do not see any mention of Mahamudra (or Dzogchen for that matter).

Lam Rim is Mahayana practice. How quickly they get into tantra & Mahamudra depends on the school. Gelugpas have extensive academic and Paramitayana practices (such as Shantideva), then tantra and Mahamudra. Kagyus get into tantra quite quickly, relatively speaking, and then Mahamudra. Nyingma have a very abbreviated Lam Rim and get into tantra & Dzogchen.

Does it fall into the "Emptiness Section" in the "Great Scope"?

Yes, they are emptiness practices.

Those are overly simplistic answers to you question, and as such not 100% accurate, but it is close enough to give you some perspective.

My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you verify it with a real teacher first.

From among the Paramitas, which are the basic instructions on the path of great scope, or Mahayana, there is the Paramita of Prajna, or "wisdom." This wisdom can be subdivided into two- the wisdom of lack of phenomenal identity, and the lack of self-identity. Within that latter topic, one finds various approaches-in mainstream Gelukpa approach, one relies on a variety of analytical approaches. The other schools use these analyses, as well. That is mainstream Mahayana.

Mahamudra and Dzogchen fall in this category, relating to the wisdom of absence of identity, and in particular, to the cognizant-yet-empty Nature of Mind. Although in analysis, self or mind cannot be found, at the same time this does not resolve into a blank nothingness. Although mind cannot be found, Mind's Nature, as the cognizant awareness, able to know, cannot be denied. This is the basis of Mahamudra, and of Dzogchen, though these practices and instructions are not solely part of the Paramitayana. They are Tantric.

In Paramitayana prajna practice, one rests after the "non-finding," non-identity, while in mahamudra and Dzogchen, one rests in Mind's Nature. Some say an "idea" of emptiness should be "held," as a reminder, while those who practice Mahamudra and Dzogchen do not recommend an "idea" of emptiness.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Sutra mahamudra is non-conceptual meditation on the nature of phenomena. If you read Atisha's Lamp on the Path, you will see that this sort of non-conceptual meditation is discussed in verses 54-58, even if the term mahamudra is not used.

Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche quoted Atisha while teaching on mahmudra: "Conceptualization is great ignorance and makes one fall into the ocean of samsara."

"Thus, the explicit teaching of this Mahamudra is the Madhyamaka of emptiness free from discursiveness as taught in the sutra system. Ultimately, Maitrıpa’s key notion of “mental nonengagement” or “mental disengagement” is nothing but the subjective side of what is called “freedom from discursiveness.” The only way in which the mind can engage in this “object”—the absence of discursiveness— is precisely by not engaging in or fueling any discursiveness, thus letting it naturally settle on its own accord. In other words, the absence of reference points can be realized only by a nonreferential mind, since this is the only perceptual mode that exactly corresponds to it. This is stated many times in the sutras."(Center of the Sunlit Sky, p. 55)

Brunnhölzl goes through the subject of Mahamudra's relation to Madhyamaka in that chapter on "The Transmission of Madhyamaka from India to Tibet". Also, if you look at the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, Gampopa brings up Mahamudra where he is discussing the practice of prajnaparamita.

1Myriad dharmas are only mind. Mind is unobtainable. What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,the six paramitas and myriad meansare complete within that essence.

1Myriad dharmas are only mind. Mind is unobtainable. What is there to seek?2If the Buddha-Nature is seen,there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.3Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.4With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,the six paramitas and myriad meansare complete within that essence.

So, I think we've answered the Question, about where Mahamudra fits into the Lam Rim outline.But just one more slightly tangential, and slightly not, point.....Mahamudra, and in fact "Prajna," must embrace all the other Paramitas, as well, in order for them to be "perfect."

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.