Who shot down Malaysian Airlines flight MH17?

US Intelligence has confirmed that a surface-to-air missile shot down a Malaysian Airlines plane, flight MH17, en route from Amsterdam. Pictures of the wreckage have now appeared, yet no one has a clear idea of who fired the missile. Here are the three most prominent explanations:

Pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists

In the past month separatists have shot down a number of Ukrainian military aircraft. On Sunday, separatists used rocket launchers to bring down a Ukrainian Air Force Il-76MD military transport plane. But planes have all been flying lower than a commercial aircraft would have been – the range is about 10,000 feet, and the Malaysian aircraft was flying at about 30,000 feet. Airlines have been aware of the risk in Eastern Ukraine, and were all operating on the assurances of Ukraine’s government that they’d be safe at that height.

“I would like to note that we are calling this not an incident, not a catastrophe, but a terrorist act.”

Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Ministry, has told the Wall St Journal that it was pro-Russian separatists:-

“They clearly thought that it was a military transport plane that they were shooting at. They were the ones who did this.

But with what? To hit an aircraft flying so high requires a more advanced radar-guided missile, and there has so far been no indication that the rebels have such a thing. Andrei Purgin, deputy prime minister of the so-called ‘Doinetsk People’s Republic’, has made this point: “We don’t have the technical ability to hit a plane at that height”.

But then again, as David wrote earlier: ‘BBC Monitoring says that, moments before news of this incident was reported, some separatists claimed that they had downed a Ukrainian plane. Several websites (see here and here) appear to confirm this account.’

The Ukrainian government, mistaking it for a Russian aircraft

In a statement, the Ukrainian government has said:

‘We do not exclude that this plane was shot down, and we stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets.’

It would not be the first time Ukrainian forces have shot down a civil aircraft. In 2001, Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 was accidentally shot down by an errant missile from the Ukrainian military when it was on an exercise, killing 78 people.

Russian missiles

The official Ukrainian line seems to be that Moscow is to blame. Earlier today, it blamed the Russian air force for shooting down a Ukrainian fighter. In its statement, Ukraine’s government says its military has no long-range missiles in the area, and went on to say:

‘The plane was shot down because the Russian air defence systems was affording protection to Russian mercenaries and terrorists in this area. Ukraine will present the evidence of Russian military involvement into the Boeing crash.’

An Ukraine Interior Ministry adviser has claimed that the weapon was a Russian-made Buk antiaircraft system.

President Putin rang President Obama today to discuss the incident. The telephone call was allegedly made at the request of Moscow. The US and European states have just imposed new sanctions on Russia over its aggression in the Ukraine. These sanctions include financial penalties against the oil producer Rosneft, and other Russian companies.

Folks! The tragedy of MH17 started over Poland: change of course. Continued over Ukraine: change of altitude. None of the air traffic control records are released. The Ukrainian secret service detained the records and is not willing to release them at all. Next step was the appearance of a military jet below MH17. Apparently the rocket, whoever fired it, took the bigger target or the militery jet escaped the rocket. Looks like some archtects created a trap and the shooters fell into. The biggest crime is the conception of this mass killing not the mistaken shot by the rocket whoever made the shot.

It’s not about who did or did not do this anymore. It is about whoever the world is convinced might have done it. With all his stunts, Putin made Russia less than popular and now people point fingers by default.

Thus, it’s not important that Russia may or may not have supported the rebels in this action. What matters is that the world believes Russia did play a role, regardless of if it really did and this may result in tensions leading to dire consequences.

Perhaps the best action is to destroy the rebels now, regardless of any collateral damage leading to loss of life. It may avert much more death over a longer time span if the rebels are stopped now and not decades later. It’s too late to diffuse the situation already: best to cut out the cancer now before it grows any further, since the damage is done already.

Bonkim

Does Putin care much about what anyone says? Politics are guided by self-interest – not morality. No different for the US, Britain, Israel, all others. It is a game – you either know how to play well or you don’t and come unstuck.

John Bloe

Get the TRUTH at: INFOWARS,COM

Glyphkeeper

Distraction by Isreal. Conspiracy theory and art of distraction.

revkevblue

The BUK SA is a sophisticated weapons system, and after the missile has been launched, it has to be guided on to target by radar.
It is not a weapon that an untrained person can use, it requires a trained team of intelligent individuals.
The point I am trying to make is that this was not done by a bunch of trigger happy amateurs that has looted this weapon from military compound.
This must have been a deliberate act, carried out by people that knew what they were doing.

somewhereinthesouth

Or thought they did. Either way a crime – apparently supported and indeed encouraged by Russia which is now denying the bleeding obvious. Its own people might believe the rhetoric [ nationalism being what it is] but no one else will [ China may seek to avoid criticism of Russia of course since they dont like the idea of interference in sovereign states but then of course they have their own skeletons in the cupboard - e.g. Tibet. ].

Mike

Does it really matter who shot down this passenger plane.

Firstly, there’s very little the west can do about it whichever side or even Russia fired the missile. We certainly wont go to war over this and western leaders will pontificate about appropiating Russian assets but for the western bankers, it will be business as usual whilst governmnets look the other way. Bankers have made billions in the past laundering illegal arms & drug money and they wont change their habits until one of them is strung up or has his head put on a pikestaff.

Secondly, why was a civilian plane crossing a war zone when it should have recognised the inherent risk in doing so. Any airline flying over trouble spots just to save fuel deserves to take part of the blame.

In summary, there’s many people to blame here apart from gun happy militia in the Ukraine, Russia or the airlines. The EU has contributed to the trouble in that area by effectively bribing the western part of the Ukraine but throw in useless leaders like Cameron, Obama and many others, its a total mess which no one can escape part of the blame.

Augustus

“Does it really matter who shot down this passenger plane.”

Considering international research teams aren’t being given access to the crash site, and the rebels are the only people wandering and plundering through the debris anyway, it will probably never be known. But has anyone ever taken on board the fact that a contributing cause of all this misery lies with the expansionist policies in Brussels?

Mike

I’m sure a lot of right minded people are well aware that these EU expansionist policies did contribute to the instability in that region but they’ll never admit to it.

Potentially, there’s a strong possibility of electorates within the existing EU forcing their governments to exit the EU either by vote or if thats prevented then by force. The EU has its own style of democracy where you do as they tell you or else have appointed leaders forced on you as happened in Greece and Italy.

pearlsandoysters

I guess it’s difficult to say what happened at this stage, the things are aggravated by blatant propaganda on both sides. The lousy reporting is of no help at all. Why would the route be changed? There is no answer to this question and many others, while the one-liners fill the newspapers at an astonishing speed. It might be sensible to look at who benefits from the situation.

JustAThought

Wouldn’t it make perfect sense for Ukrainian government to do this – and then point its fingers at those bad rebels who are now declarable international terrorists?
Didn’t Georgia do just that a couple of years ago – point fingers at Russian occupation when it was later shown they attacked first?

All well timed to resolve the gas supply issue before winter starts in Europe – surely this isn’t that hard to see?

Liz

Another bunch of men with penis shaped explosive missiles, I’m afraid I simply can’t keep track of what their particular gripes and demands are, a new lot pops up every week.

Gwangi

As opposed to vag-shaped holes missiles make, eh, love? Leave the thinking about complex international politics to those who have brains large enough to cope, and just stick to your omni-whinge about anyone who isn’t female being evil. You really are the best female comedian ever – far better than the dullards over-promoted at the BBC (women are SO rubbish at comedy!)

Of course PEOPLE fight and cause wars and women are JUST as much to blame as men, though men and boys suffer far FAR more.

Typical misandrist feminist fantasy that men cause wars and all bad things in the world. The fact is, men do bad things because women encourage and motivate them to do so! Behind every suicide bomber is a suicide-bomber-encouraging mother…

And anyway, if women WERE in direct charge, we’d be at war for 5 days every month eh? Hee hee… It’s funny coz IT’S TRUE!

Liz

As usual you are wrong about everything.

saffrin

Buy yourself some new batteries dear, you are obsessed.

Jackthesmilingblack

Britisher pals, ask yourselves what this Malaysian Airlines downing has pushed off the front pages. *Paedos in the Houses of Parliament”, what happened to that story?

Jackthesmilingblack

“Don’t touch the red button, Ivan!”

Augustus

“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft – 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.”
-A source told the Interfax news agency.

As government planes with their leader on board don’t always follow a fixed route it’s not hard to imagine that Ukrainian seperatists spotted a plane they thought had Putin on board and fired on the wrong plane.

i think USA is responsible.they badly need enemy,so they want no competition over being no/one on earth. russia doesn’t want a war,USA wants a dominate

,like a big bully.

saffrin

You know what; it wouldn’t surprise me if they find the US Government sanctioned the shooting down of Malaysian flight MH17.
They have already confessed to spending over $6 Billion on subverting the Ukraine. It wouldn’t be the first time the US has shot down passenger airliners.

Simon Fay

Hmm, the separatists still sound the most likely culprits based on circumstantial evidence, but I’m not ruling out a shocking revelation in years to come.

BTW is it now certain that it was ground-to-air, and not air-to-air?

Roger Hudson

To digress: A group of ex-soviet miners have a missile launcher many many times more capable than the pathetic blowpipe and Rapier that the Brits deployed at the Olympics. How many Aster missiles ( Seadart being obsolete ) could we deploy?, how many spare rounds do we have?.
Britain is behind a group of rebels in the missile stakes, pathetic.
As for Russian D400, etc. etc. where is our defence budget going? Buy Russian seems the best answer.

somewhereinthesouth

Russia is not to be trusted on the Ukraine crisis and any statements need to be greeted with extreme scepticism . Whilst it is not clear if the Russians actually supplied this missile equipment [or it was “captured” it is known that Russian military have been advising and fighting with the insurgents.in any event f is had been captured it doesn’t look like the Russians were able to persuade its new owners to be cautious in its use as several Ukrainian planes have been shot down recently and the terrorist websites claimed a plane was downed more or less at the right time and place. Russian political support for them goes without saying. The EU needs to get much tougher. Russia will claim its nothing to do with us guv, were just innocent bystanders and its all the Ukraine’s fault. It wont wash at the very least the Russian who have a great deal of influence have done nothing to stop the conflict and appear be stoking it by supplying weapons and advice and even fighters.. The current western statements about “condolences”, “incidents” and ” UN inquiries” are all very well in diplomatic terms but where is the anger? I noted a little from the Australian PM and hint from Cameron but Hammond’s statement was wooden by comparison. Germany , Spain and Italy in particular need to toughen up their position on sanctions ASAP . As for Malaysia [no blame can be attached to them - they were advised it was safe to fly over 30,000ft] they will be incandescent. Those EU countries who reliant on Russia for gas need to get their gas from elsewhere as soon as possiblend pray for a mild winter. Mrs Merkyl will have to realise that it can be business as usual for Mercedes BMW and VW.

swatnan

The Ukranian govt. The Russians are being unfairly blamed by the US and the West.
Putins remit doesn’t run to the Separatists one bit. Sanctions are pretty useless. But if the US and West imposed sanctions on Israel we could get the israeli to change their tune. Gaza should the tragic story today not MH17, which was an accident whichever way you look at it. But, Gaza is deliberate by the Israelis.

Gwangi

Idiot.

somewhereinthesouth

Putin is a former KGB agent. He knows very well how to avoid looking like he has had any involvement in the Ukraine and the machinations of the separatists. Russia has form on interference in its neighbours affairs [both recently and of course for centuries] and certainly does not like the idea of the Ukraine becoming part of the EU orbit. Putin is trying to re – establish something like the old soviet union and the old Russian empire [ but with a Mafialite government rather than communist control] . A democarct he definitely ins not. Trustworthy?..Hmm people like him only respect one thing . Control, power and the money to achieve it.

Shazza

The tragedy is that we have no real leadership in the West now. As Douglas Carswell in his Telegraph Blog this morning says “What would Maggie have done?”

Obama is too busy playing golf and fundraising and remember he told us not so long ago, that we are lucky to be living in such peaceful times (!). I would remind all those Leftie adorers of Obama how in one of the Presidential debates how he laughed at Mitt Romney having the temerity to suggest that Russia could be a threat to the West.

So who is laughing now?

beenzrgud

It’s going to be difficult to find out what actually happened after the wreckage has been picked clean by the pro Russia mob. I wonder how long before the official investigators arrive on scene, not nearly fast enough I’m sure !

Tony_E

Black boxes are already in Moscow according to radio reports this morning. I would now expect that to have sustained ‘serious damage’.

The only argument now will be who supplied the missiles. Were they Ukrainian ones, captured by the militants, or were they Russian supplied.

Russian forces will have been sifting through the wreckage to try to remove any shrapnel that is identifiable as having been from a Russian made SAM. Official investigators won’t got close to it for some time I suspect, the excuse being that it’s in a war zone.

beenzrgud

That all sounds about right, it will become a damage limitation exercise for the Russians. I don’t think this will have been sanctioned by Putin so I’m sure there’s some numpty right now crapping in his pants.

Gwangi

Russian separatist thugs in Ukraine armed by a fascist uber-nationalist thug in the Kremlin with rocket equipment they were too thick to understand how to use properly.

Now we wait until revenge in wreaked on Russia and Russians worldwide. Better not to fly at the moment, methinks…

A bit tricky, seeing as Russia armed the criminals and approves of their thuggery, innit?

Ramakrishna Ps

Who would give solace to Malaysia and the passengers? Perhaps, Russia, Ukraine, European Union and NATO should take equal responsibility, for not trying to get the situation get out of responsibility! Russia and Ukraine never tried to reduce their tensions. NATO & EU never cared about the aftermath, only trying to wean Ukraine away from the Russian sphere of influence!

Ed B

This is perilously close to blaming the victim. Disgusting.

the viceroy’s gin

It’s more like an accurate description of the real state of affairs.

Kasperlos

A Lusitania from the Sky
Omen of Spirits to Espy

A Call to Arms from Some
Who Remembers the Somme
Hello to all That
Mars Seeks a Comeback

All’s Not Quiet Before August
Who can Now Stop it

On the Idle Hill of Summer
Do you Hear the Drummers

Forward March East of Eden
If Only to Say it’s Freed Them

Bonkim

Petro Poroshenko – you idiot – regardless of whether the Separatists have brought the plane down – you knew there was a risk to aircraft flying through your conflict zone – your planes have been brought down in recent days – regardless of the height this plane was flying – the risk was there and you allowed civilians to travel this route. The separatists may well have thought it was one of yours – don’t blame them to down your aircraft.

Tony_E

The plane was off course – flying about 100 miles north of its previous plight paths on that route (which would have taken it out over the sea and Crimea).

Also, at 30,000 ft, nothing that the separatists reportedly had in their armoury should have been able to reach it, especially had it stuck to the flight path intended. Also, at 30,000 ft, it would have been radar tracked. Before you launch against a plane of any nature, it is your duty to at least identify its origin.

allymax bruce

The only ‘mitigating’ evidence available is that of how the Junta coup, and Poroshenko’s Right Sector thug-murderers, have forcefully & ignorantly bludgeoned, murdered, and instigated (sniper shots at innocent civillians in maiden crowd), indiscriminate murder of innocents. If it looks like a false-flag, smells like a false-flag, and walks like a false-flag, then it’s more than ‘likely’ to be a flase-flag!

Bonkim

Porkoshenko comes out as a Mafiosi.

Bonkim

It is the wild East – not Mayfair. You take risk venturing over the conflict zone.

somewhereinthesouth

So what if it was a little of course or it might have been better if it weren’t flying well above a conflict zone? { plenty of other airlines were doing the same]. If an unidentified plane enters our airspace without consent, the RAF go and have a look, we don’t shoot them out of the sky willy nilly. You appear to be saying the end justifies the means.

The Ukrainian advice to the airline industry may have been inadequate but that does not justify blame being levelled at the Ukrainian government for shooting down an unarmed civilian plane ; this heinous act is in effect a terrorist crime [ tacitly if not overtly ] supported by Russia. Even I can tell the difference between a airline and a fighter jet just by looking at the plumes. It would appear that the nutters and psychopaths who are fighting to join mother Russia can’t. WE know the insurgents have shot down Ukrainian planes, we know it was a missile attack, we know that suitable missile systems have been seen in Donestk and we know they claimed to have shot down a transport plane only yesterday, What more evidence is needed? It is the separatists fault , they fired the missile not Ukraine and not Malaysian airlines. Russia isn’t blameless in this matter either.

Bonkim

The East Ukrainian freedom fighters are not an established government with their RAF to check out – they would shoot from the hip at the slightest whiff of an Ukrainian plane coming to bomb them. It is the wild East – airlines should have known better than to go over – many sensible airlines have done just that.

Rebels, terrorists or freedom fighters – it is for the airlines and the local air route authority to safeguard civilian flights – extra precaution as needed.

somewhereinthesouth

The fact they aren’t the RAF does not justify what they have done or how they did it. Russia [ their paymasters] have radar and also it appears supplied the weapons if not the men or training to per ate them. If they haven’t trained the rabble who they entrust these weapons to – whose fault is that? Playing with guns when you don’t know how to work the safety catch is likely to cause accidents.

As for the route , that was authorised [ perhaps wrongly by the authorities but it was]. They the rebels are criminals -whatever their politics. Of course if they win and become the victors they might well [ like the IRA which has largely got away with it ] become the new democrats but right now they aren’t. Whats is more and raps less excusable is they appear to being egged on and supported by supposedly more responsible nations i.e. Russis who nevertheless deny any involvement when the there is plenty of evidence to the contrary .Russia it turns out is run by a bunch of crooks.. Blood on their hands . We should have nothing to do with them.

Bonkim

They have done it again – this time downing Ukrainian fighters. Good for them. the MAS was an error – sad as it was.

somewhereinthesouth

What a twisted mind you have. You appear to condone the MAS downing as an “accident” and the pain it has caused to those on board and their families. On your logic its good to kill people you don’t like [ so you can merge with people you do or believe you ] and sad if you kill others in the process to whom you are indifferent. All have value it is often their thinking which is at fault. War is just two state controlled egos clashing for power – I suspect justification for killing lies with neither.

Bonkim

I consider the Russians freedom fighters – anything fair in love and war. no sympathy for the Ukrainian fascists whatever.

http://scallywagandvagabond.com/ scallywag

Screenshots floating around the Russian-language internet (now deleted) from the Facebook page of Igor Strelkov, a rebel leader in eastern Ukraine, depict posts of plumes of smoke and bragging about shooting down a Ukrainian military Antonov plane shortly before MH17 fell.

‘Don’t fly in our skies,’ he wrote. If true, it would seem rebels downed the jetliner, having mistaken it for a Ukrainian military jet.

Now the question is what can Russia’s President Vladimir Putin do to rein in pro Russian militants inside Kiev as he continues to lose his rein on them and what is the US prepared to do to rein in Putin…?

Ukraine should have kept all civilian aircraft away from the conflict zone. Many airlines have already done that on their own accord.

Tony_E

If they shot it down by mistake, it would suggest that they didn’t know how to use the missile system properly. It has guidance and range finding radar plus visual aids. The person targeting the plane should have known it’s altitude.

The altitude alone would have given pause for thought to anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

Bonkim

Shooting from the hip – this is rattlesnake territory – avoid it by all means. We can discuss who is right and who is right for a long time after the deed is done.

Bonkim

They appear to have learnt from the mistake and sharpened their killing skills.

jack

In the end this is the fault of the EU by destabilising the region and creating a conflict. Trying to entice Ukraine into the bosoom of Europe without realising that they would be removing the buffer zone between us and Russia.

Russia were hardly going to accept this lying down, and so here we are- pro Russian goons given weapons they could not understand nor handle with care.

Bonkim

Spot on Jack that is what is called common sense which the EU Commissioners and US Ambassador did not have when they went around encouraging the Ukrainian neo-Nazis in Kiev distributing tea and biscuits.

Icebow

They had some presumed ‘expert(s)’ on Radio 4 saying that the 777 would have been flying at ’800-900 miles per hour’ and ’12-13 miles’.

HookesLaw

900km/hr might make more sense

Icebow

Well, yes, I thought that.

Bonkim

That would be supersonic and the plane would have disintegrated.

somewhereinthesouth

Really? Unless it was Concorde no civil ailrliner goes anything like as fast.

Simon Fay

Cui bono? The Yanks on ‘Newsnight’ were fired up at the prospect of internationalising the matter. A coalition of the willing etc

RIP those many souls lost today.

Ricky Strong

Doesn’t really matter who shot it down, after seeing the unedited footage on live leak all I can say is that I feel so much for those on board that flight and for their loved ones.

HookesLaw

I think it does matter who shot it down – for the very reasons you describe.

Ricky Strong

But does it? Had it been an accident or an act of terrorism it is a tragic loss of life. Knowing who did it changes nothing.

Glyphkeeper

The Russians may be provocative but they’re not stupid – there is no way that Putin’s government would sanction the rebels to shoot down an airliner. This is simply what happens when disaffected, vodka-swilling thugs get control of a standalone weapons system and start pointing it at things for fun.

Count Dooku

Yes bit do you think some random rebel will know how to operate a stand-off SAM battery?
If it was the rebels, then they must be Russian or ex-Russian military. I have a sneaking suspicion that the missile might have come across the border though.

SimonToo

These are countries whose armies work on conscription. Everyone (male, at any rate) has served in the army. Therefore a number of them will have served as operators of AA systems.

Count Dooku

Yes but these kind of AA batteries are usually seen as strategic weapons no? Not the kind of tactical AA guns and manpads that your average Josef knows how to use.

SimonToo

No, they are the standard air defence weapons for a division. The troops in those units are conscripts, just like the rest of the army.

james smith

There was a thorough explanation of the way BUKs work on Newsnight last night – it seems fully possible that the rebels would be able to use them to fire missiles at targets without possessing the full knowledge of the way they work (or indeed what they’re actually firing at). According to the Ukranian minister who was on there, the pro-Russian separatists stole some BUKs from the Ukranian military a while back, so your assumption that Russia has provided the separatists with missiles is nothing but speculation. Then again, who knows what to believe?

allymax bruce

You’re ‘accepting’ the MSM brainwashing ‘deflection deception’; the most probable cause of the shooting down of passenger flight KLM/MH was from another aircraft.

james smith

Really…? And how do you figure that one out?

William_Brown

…..from the comfort of his over used swivel chair!

http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

…maybe from reports of Ukrainian jets following the plane; or from ‘ear witness’ reports of eye witnesses to the crash talking of gun fire/shooting from the air immediately prior to the crash.

allymax bruce

Hi james smith; well, from the objective evidence we have to now. Nobody seen, or has reported, BUK missiles being fired from the ground; not one eye-witness, nor any photos; only supposition reports of what could have ‘reached’ that far up into the sky. If that’s the only evidence available, then I could say a meteor from outer space could have caused the downing of the plane. Outlandish as it is, it’s just as plausible as a rogue BUK at this stage of evidence given. Now, taking into consideration it is a war zone, and that Kiev government troops/army have used their airforce fighter jets to bomb innocent civilians in many Self-Proclaimed Republics in East Ukraine, then I would say an aircraft was more likely than a meteor as the cause. Notwithstanding that, if it wasn’t an aircraft, then a BUK missile could be the cause; but from who? Let’s look at the evidence. Poroshenko’s Kiev Government are proven murderers, thugs, and employ fascist Right Sector Nazi-thugs to ‘do their dirty-work’; here-in lays the the most likely cause; but the most ‘probable’ cause was, and still is, (until we/the world, get more evidence), a Poroshenko murdering aircraft attack jet.

William_Brown

….or, instead of immediately jumping on the conspiracy band-waggon, you could watch the video included in the report which shows the Ground to Air Missile being fired. Christ, at least read the report before claiming expert opinion!

allymax bruce

What you are ‘fed’ by the bs Press and MSM is not proof; reading reports is not proof. Only ‘substantial’ proof come from actual evidence; not heresay like you’re trying too hard to ‘promote’.
According to your method of operation, you believed everything Jack Straw said about ‘rendition flights & torturing as ‘conspiracy theories’; don’t be so naive!

William_Brown

Unlike you, who, as far as I can see, have got absolutely nothing approaching evidence for your ‘tin-foil hat’ theories.

allymax bruce

Will I accept your apology now?
Or do you want to continue to use your ignorant streams of amazing rhetoric?

james smith

Oh wow.

allymax bruce

Is that it? you are confronted with objective truth; and you say “Oh wow”. Are you John Mclane?

james smith

It’s people like you who give conspiracy theorists a bad name.

allymax bruce

That made me laugh.
Soon, you won’t be able to hide anything; it’s all in the matrix, and everyone has access to it.

William_Brown

….agreed. This one’s a prize find!

William_Brown

Objective truth, you say?
Your English is so poor that one could be convinced easily that you are no more than a Soviet shill. Your blathering diatribe backs up the theory that Russia has little, or no money left with which to train their propaganda teams effectively.

allymax bruce

Ah, the deflection deception strikes again; what has my alleged, poor english, or, alleged, blathering diatribe, or even, Russia’s, alleged, little or no money left, ‘amazing rhetoric’ got to do with this issue
You are John Mclane, and I claim my five pounds.

komment

Classic case of if you don’t like the message try and discredit the messengere.Ally ax Bruce makes a lot of sense.jm

Count Dooku

Of course it’s speculation. I said “sneaking suspicion” which should have given it away.
And when I said “across the border” I meant that I think the Russians shot down the plane! A-la Iran Air and SK Air.

james smith

Oh come on, Putin might be provocative but there’s no way he’s stupid enough to do that.

Count Dooku

I didn’t say that he did it on purpose. The same morning the Ukranians were saying they were hit by missiles from accross the border.
Probably a mistake but I wouldn’t be surprised.

james smith

Firstly, the pro-Russian separatists are the only group from the three (Ukranians, separatists, Russians) who are currently using SAMs in the conflict.
Secondly, there have been reports that some separatists tweeted that they’d hit a Ukranian military plane early on yesterday in pretty much the exact region where the Malaysian airliner came down.

Count Dooku

Oh I know all that, but then I am allowed to speculate as well.
Also, Kiev are saying the Russians are using SAMs. It’s not a fact that only the seperatists are using them.

Roger Hudson

To talk about ex-Russian military is facile, Ukraine and Russia were two joint pillars of the USSR and both had the older versions of the BUK SA-11 since the late1970s, there must be hundreds of ex-soviet soldiers in Eastern Ukraine who could use one. How the militia got the weapon is the question.
The area seems to be in the hands of a mining ‘enterprise’ militia unit, they are shown on TV combing the sunflower fields for bodies.
This was a cock-up not a complex conspiracy, typical of a civil war environment.
Just keep it a European problem to sort out, keep those Yankee blowhards like McCain and Clinton out of it, they are pure poison.

“Disaffected, vodka-swilling thugs”. From what I understand this would be a very good description of the Russian army.

William_Brown

……..or a trigger happy narcissist like, say one Cmdr Girkin, might have pulled the trigger? He did, after all, claim responsibility shortly before deleting his message after being informed that it was…err….a commercial airline.
“Vodka swilling thugs”………?

Was a lovely day before I switched on the news this evening, but then again the bearer thereof never fails to disappoint.

Curnonsky

The “tell” on culpability will be when comments begin mysteriously appearing which accuse Ukraine/the EU/NATO etc. of orchestrating the attack deliberately in order to blacken the fair name of Putin. The more damning the evidence, the more it will confirm the “conspiracy”.

What odds the real culprit is some vodka-sodden Russian conscript manning the control panel while the boss is napping at his desk?

iviv44

Sounds to me as though when one of these little BUK things is operating on its own, it doesn’t even need the guy at the desk to say yea.

rtj1211

I find it inconceivable that anyone knows who did this, unless they have inside information.

It is of course a co-ordinated UK media response to blame Putin and suggest anything up to killing him is par for the course.

Is this a media that is worth respecting any more??

HookesLaw

Oooh dear – we must not criticise St Nige’s new best mate shall we. In fact the military radars and satellites should be able to discover who did it.

Roger Hudson

No.

iviv44

Actually, I thought the BBC put their normal anti-Russian bias on hold for a bit, and their reporting style reverted to the 1950s, i.e. sticking to the facts. However, as more and more evidence stacked up suggesting that separatist rebels were responsible, the BBC certainly shifted their position. I have to say, the evidence looks pretty damning — although it would have been nice to have a Russian representative on Newsnight to at least provide another perspective. I don’t think that anyone is claiming that Putin is directly responsible, although it certainly looks as though Russia is implicated indirectly, hence the major backside-covering going on now.

realfish

‘…there has so far been no indication that the rebels have anything other than shoulder-launched missiles’

WHAT? Are you totally deficient in your journalism?

Reuters correspondents were reporting seeing BUK missile systems in the vicinity, this morning. Systems that can hit aircraft flying at 40,000 feet.

Separatists have been bragging, for weeks that they had captured a BUK anti aircraft system.
Fraser…sack these idiots.

Agreed: seems most likely that rebels had “liberated” some more advanced ground to air system such as BUK from some Russian supporters and then screwed up with their targetting (or even just their operation? I don’t know how easy this sort of kit is to use …. I imagine not very… although the earlier claim of downing a transport suggests mistaken id)

SimonToo

The BUK system is used by both the Russian and the Ukrainian armies. They are conscript armies, so there will be ample former conscripts around who have been trained to use the system.

HookesLaw

Sack the brains trust?? !

(that ignores the point that they are led by an idiot)

Bonkim

If they did – they thought they were downing an Ukrainian air force jet. A mistake.

Damon

Yeah. As we onanize about the political, economic and diplomatic implications of this, perhaps worth sparing a nanosecond to think about the 295 victims, the anguish and terror of their final moments and the impending agony of their families. I’m just, you know, saying.

Darnell Jackson

Your post would be more respectful if it wasn’t started with the word “Yeah”

HookesLaw

Plus this is not the Christian Science Monitor.
If this is an accident it is tragic, but if the Russians and their trigger happy allies have shot it down it is a disgrace.

the viceroy’s gin

…but if your islamofascist buddies shot it down, it’s just business as usual, eh lad?

HookesLaw

Ah… the redneck speaks. How is the grand wizard today?

the viceroy’s gin

…speaking of necks, your islamofascist buddies are busily chopping the necks of Christians in both Iraq and Syria now, laddie. Congratulations.

HookesLaw

So how is the Grand Wizard? Please tell us – you have nothing else to offer.

It has to be someone with sophisticated hardware. That leaves three possibilities: the Russians, the Ukranians, or the Russians acting through a proxy. The last of those is of course the same as the first. Trigger happy idiots or psychotic lunatics who were hoping the other side would be blamed?

Dogzzz

It was Ukraine to blame on Russia to try to get the west into a war against Russia. There is no way that the Russians would shoot down a passenger airliner over Ukraine, they would not be able to benefit from it. The EU and USA have been desparate to support the NAZIs in Kiev to get into a war with Russia.

realfish

And Elvis was aboard.

the viceroy’s gin

Now those Rooooshians have gone too far. Let’s get the nukes oiled up and sighted in, it’s time to teach those savages a lesson. Shoot down Elvis, will you?

Radford_NG

In the EU Parliament yesterday UKIP member for Yorks.declared EU policy is about adding another country to its empire.Earlier today in a debate on Ukraine UKIP asked what was the use of sanctions against Russia which had withstood the siege of Leningrad and Defence of Stalingrad

Sticks in the throat doesn’t it – a country wanting to join the EU. If
you and he cannot work out the difference between WW2 and the here and now then you deserve to be stuck in your 1950 time warp.

Baron

HookesLaw, if the joining were to genuinely help the unwashed of Ukraine you would have a point, but it ain’t. It’s another step in the empire building by a clique that has as much respect for democracy as you have for clear, unbiased thinking.

Bonkim

That was the time of the Soviets – Russians have now got soft. So don’t bank on the Soviet spirit now.

Hexhamgeezer

KAL 007?

Kennybhoy

Iran Air Flight 655?

Hexhamgeezer

I wouldn’t blame Ivan for that one!

HookesLaw

yeah – thats right its all the EU’s fault. Here we have another right wing Putin loving kipper nutjob.

the viceroy’s gin

…as opposed to an islamofascist-loving nutjob like you?

Baron

But HookesLaw, why did the EU spend close to 400mn Euros in the two years before the Kiev putsch undermining a properly elected President? Was the spend ever debated in the EU Parliament, in the House here, in chambers of other EU members?

Baron

It may have been a tragic mistake, if not then cui bono? Not Kiev, not the separatists, not Putin, but Obama for he can say ‘I’ve told you, Putin’s evil, lets hit him.

somewhereinthesouth

Yo u make it sound like it doesn’t matter. At best the blame is shared – i.e. the EU , Ukraine , the voters ,the separatists ,the nationalists , Russia, the US. Anyone [ preferably a collective] but the bastards
who fired the missile without looking. If I “borrowed” or stole gun and saw some one at the bottom of my garden and fired at them and it turned out to be a child from another street, whose fault would it be ? The gun owners who lent me the gun or left lying around? My neighbours or mine for not having decent fence? Other people in the street who did not like trespassers and urged me to get tough if I saw one ? The child’s parents for not warning the child to stay out of other peoples gardens ? No these are all simply excuses – the fault is with the person who fired the gun and who did not check properly to see who the alleged intruder was and why they were there. Murder.

Bonkim

Regardless of who did it and/or if it was a mistaken target – Ukraine should have closed the route over a conflict zone – unless they want to capitalise on this tragedy.

somewhereinthesouth

It was a mistake so thats alright then?
It was murder at worst and manslaughter at best.Either way 300 innocent people died. Shooting before you know what you are shooting at, is simply a criminal act. A war crime. These people are out of control .

starfish

Lets see now

The aircradt was flying east so had been in ukrainian airspace for some time would have been speaking to ukrainian ATC and the rebels have no aircraft to shoot down. So it seems unlikely to have been ukraine

Similarly russuan ATC would be ecpecting the aurcraft and I doubt it was them

So that leaves the rebels. Either with Russian SAMs given to them or nanned by ‘mercenaries’ or wuth former ukrainian SAMs

Or it could be an unrelated coincidence

Personally i think it was the rebels especially as they claimed a transport aircraft at roughly the same time

HookesLaw

‘especially as they claimed a transport aircraft at roughly the same time’…. this seems a fair point. Quite why anyone would want to shoot down a plane at 30,000 ft seems strange. Rebels would be inexperienced enough to do it.

the viceroy’s gin

It could be your islamofascist buddies from Libya and Syria, come to Ukraine to practice their craft. You and they like slaughtering Christians, as we know.

HookesLaw

hello mr redneck – living in fantasy land still. Isamist on the brain – Interesting to see you twisting the truth so you can still suck up to the Russians.

the viceroy’s gin

Is that incoherent gibberish supposed to be saying something, lad?

Maybe you can have your islamofascist buddies translate it for you. They always get right to the point… a knife point to be precise.

HookesLaw

You are the gibberish expert – obsessing about islamo fascist buddies. When you spout garbage like that you demonstrate you have no interest in the facts. I suppose it makes uo for not being able to whip the slaves any more. Should we feel sorry for you?

the viceroy’s gin

Nope, still incoherent gibberish, lad .

Again, your islamofascist buddies may be able to give you some help there, in between rounds of slaughtering Christians, yours and their favorite pastime .

rtj1211

Can the pair of you stop talking AT each other and learn the basic human skill of talking TO each other??

nickwilde

Couldn’t agree more and this habit of putting “lad” in every post is plain stupid. Every time I read it I just switch off.

the viceroy’s gin

Good plan, and keep it up, lad.

the viceroy’s gin

Not much to talk about with you socialists, lad.

Bonkim

idiotic to route a passenger plane across a conflict zone.

Alexsandr

+ 100000 Culpable negligence on the part of the airline IMHO.

Roger Hudson

Malaysian Airways will join PanAm in the ‘sued to oblivion’ club.
MH270 + MH17 will bankrupt them,even with state aid.

telemachus

Very troubling, almost philosophical questions of responsibility here
The Malaysians clearly have no blame whatsoever
Who is in charge of air traffic control in that sector?
Whose name was on the missile?
Are there analogies with that other heinous crime not so far away in the Smolensk Forrest where the German name was on thousands and thousands of bullets leading to decades of controversy as to the responsibility of that crime on the Polish nation?

Andy

It was Putin’s lackeys.

Alexsandr

they knew they were being routed over a war zone. They could have refused the path, or cancelled the flight. But they put profit over passenger safety. and all the other airlines that flew that route. Malaysia were just unlucky -could have been lufthansa

FF42

I would agree, but most airlines were flying as normal through the conflict zone. This includes Lufthansa and Air France. Malaysia Airlines was particularly unlucky that the missile hit them first, given their other recent crash.

I think airlines follow the guidance given by the Air Traffic Organisations, who gave the all clear for this area.

HookesLaw

Another good point – Bonkim seems to think planes fly where they want.

Alexsandr

they can refuse a flight plan if they consider it dangerous. or not fly

HookesLaw

None have.
The point is the plane like others were routed that way. It strikes me that it ought to have been safe, flying at over 30,000 ft on a recognised air traffic route.

Roger Hudson

Safe from a SAM that can hit up to 80,000ft ?
They don’t have that crap Britain deployed for the Olympics (Rapier 10,000ft), pathetic.

HookesLaw

I don’t mean safe from being hit – I mean safe from being thought dangerous or military in the context of the conflict and the fact that it was flying straight into russian airspace on a regular air route (where it might easily have been an aeroflot plane).

So – not ‘pathetic’.

ArchiePonsonby

What about that Ukrainian refusenik cowboy on the video gloating about “We told you not to fly in our air”? Think he might have had something to do with it? One thing is certain: the Yanks will have been watching this corner of the world intently recently, and they’ll undoubtedly have shed-loads of intelligence which they’ll drop on the world any minute now. Watch for some intense arse-covering by Vlad the Insaner!

allymax bruce

Why haven’t you considerd ‘the set-up’, Archie?
Typical method of operation is to place false markers, that instigate a certain scenario, that work to compromise an objective thought process. Everything you ‘see’ as ‘markers of evidence’, are only the scales over your own eyes.

an ex-tory voter

There is no such thing as “safe” in a war zone.
The routing of civilian aircraft at any height through a war zone where surface to air missiles are known to be in use is no less than criminal negligence. Airlines use routes and heights as determined by national and international regulatory bodies and it is these who should be facing questions, not the luckless Malaysian Airline.
The EU was quick enough to act regarding volcanic ash, but seem to have considered SAMs a lesser threat to aircraft entering or leaving it’s airspace.
As for the Ukranian authorities they are not in control on the ground and cannot therefore give any assurances regarding the safety of passenger aircraft transiting their airspace.

Alexsandr

yes the ATC people have questions to answer. But the airlines, or the pilots, could refuse such a routing. Or indeed not fly. but that would hit profits. I doubt the insurers will think its clever to fly there -they may refuse to pay out. Most insurances have a clause about war zones and I would have thought airline cover would.
Expect a drop in airline shares today as this sinks in. And customers think flying east isnt so cosy after all.

Mynydd

It seem that South Korea stopped using this route last March.

Jambo25

They’ve had a previous unfortunate experience with the Russians.

the viceroy’s gin

Qantas and the Korean Air Lines were already dodging that zone.

Wrong again, laddie.

realfish

There was an interesting interview tonight with someone from ‘Eurocontrol’ the European organisation that manages European air traffic. He stated that as here had been no issues they considered it safe to overfly Ukraine.
When pressed on the routing and dangers, like a typical European bureaucrat, he absolved himself and his organisation of any responsibility, choosing to blame the nation states for the flight plans chosen by airlines.

HookesLaw

It has been in existence since 1960. It is not an EU organisation, it consists of 40 countries.

It looks to me to be a co-ordinating body. As we know when they go on strike, France has its own air traffic controllers even though it is a member – so do other countries. In fact controllers in France Italy, Greece, Portugal and Hungary are on strike tomorrow.

So your unfortunate bureaucrat may be right.

http://google.co.eu Sentinel

“the aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 (approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 feet) when it disappeared from the radar. This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying.”

Its standard practice. Airlines have been flying over areas of the Mid East and Africa which were or are active war zones for a very long time. They don’t normally expect Russian pish heads to fire missiles at them.

Kennybhoy

Iran Air 655 and Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114…?

And on our side of the Med. Air France Flight 1611 and Aerolinee Itavia Flight 870…?

And not to mention Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 shot down by a Ukranian SAM launched from Crimea…

Jambo25

So! The captain and executive officer of the USS Vincennes should have been charge with some form of homicide. However, the USA did admit culpability and paid out massive sums in compensation. The Libyan Plane flew into Israeli airspace, over the Dimona nuclear facility and after visual identification by IDF jets was ordered to land. For some reason the pilot didn’t and was shot down. Post 9/11 we can possibly understand why.No one really knows what caused the Air France crash, nor the destruction of Aerolinee Atavia Flight 870. Lots of theories but no hard proof.
The Ukrainian authorities admitted to a mistake in shooting down the Siberian Airways plane fairly quickly after the incident and paid compensation. I notice you didn’t mention KAL 007. The Russians tried to blame that on the Americans, Koreans etc: virtually anybody apart from their own Red Air Force. It took 15 years for them to release the black boxes from the plane.
Some of us can judge each incident on their own merits rather than stringing them together to aid ‘whataboutery’ in order to gain forgiveness for the side we seem to support.

Bonkim

Expectations bring disappointment.

Jambo25

We expect rather more civilised behaviour even from combatants.

Bonkim

I won’t worry who else gets done if I am engaged in mortal combat. ‘Civilized’ – I define what is civilized – don’t let idiots tell me what it means.

Jambo25

if that’s the case then don’t complain at anything that is done to you. Everything is permitted. Enjoy.

Bonkim

Very little you can do about situations outside your control.

FF42

Metro is ahead of the Spectator here. Apparently Igor Stralkov/Girkin, rebel military leader and “formerly” of the Russian Security Services boasted in a tweet, subsequently deleted, they had downed a Ukrainian transport plane at the time and place of the Malaysia Airlines crash.

So almost certainly a massive blunder on the part of Stralkov’s faction. I don’t imagine his Russian masters will be pleased.

Rubbish. It was clearly the Israelis wot did it to distract the world’s attention from their ground offensive. At least that’s what Georgeous George will no doubt claim next time he’s on Al-Ja-Propaganda Channel.

Jackthesmilingblack

And those recording, via the Mossad Drama Department?

allymax bruce

Pre-planned ‘set-up’?
Think objectively; not subjectively.
Don’t believe what you are ‘fed’ by the bs Press MSM.

Sean Lamb

I am going for it being over-determined.
The people responsible for MH370′s disappearance may have become aware that the Malaysians or Malaysian Airlines had come across some information implicating them. They want to send a message to Malaysia to keep its trap shut because they can keep downing their airplanes and ain’t no one going to say anything.
The 2nd cause is that it will likely end up be blamed on Russia and the separatists, discrediting them in the eyes of the international community and undermining whatever legitimacy they had.
So two birds with one stone.

HookesLaw

No wrong I’m afraid. It was the blue lizard headed men from Pluto again

Sean Lamb

To lose one parent, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune. To lose both looks like carelessness.

It is not exactly the first time new Ukrainian government have been running false flag operations. If you recall they shot their own demonstrators at Maidan Square.

Free Rudy Guede

Having said that it would also be possible to smuggle a timed explosive onboard and watch the two sides point fingers at each other. But they ought to find fragments of any missile that will exclude that.

HookesLaw

Freddie Gray and Camilla Swift – well we can see the Speccy is putting the brains trust on this one.