Layout help needed! Meeting with cabinet guy Wed.

williamsemSeptember 9, 2012

So excited to be at the point where I can really dig into a layout design! Meeting with the cabinet guy on Wednesday, I would like to bring the best plan I (or more accurately, we) can come up with and see what they have drawn up, then hopefully pick the best ideas from each to include.

Here is the current layout:

It's just DH and me in the home, no plans for kids. We tend to cook 5-7 nights a week, usually one cook at a time. We don't entertain much due to space, but when we have people over it's either just 4-6 of us total or way more than one table can handle.

My goals:

- more counter space, which could happen largely by moving things that currently live in the counter for lack of space (blender, knife block, rice cooker, soda stream, coffee maker and toaster all live there now)

- proper ventilation since we cook so much, currently have an OTR MW

- space for a table that seats 6, likely one that has a leaf to make it that size

- remove the soffets, which will add some storage to the uppers

This is my best attempt at including everything. The OTR MW is replaced by a hood, the MW function is part of the Advantium we hope to add. I really want to fit in a 30 inch 240V Advantium, but if necessary will consider the 240V OTR model mounted above a section of counter. This will also replace the toaster since we rarely make toast (it will be stored away just in case). Moving the fridge was necessary to free up space for seating.

I'm not sure about how shifting the sink over 6 inches will look, but that extra prep space would be heavenly! Also not sure I can put a built in oven facing that way with no wall. Anyone know?

I'm finding the diagram lacking enough contrast to read well. But...I'd move that sink out from under the window and over to the right as far as possible here, as well as going to a smaller cabinet to the left of the range to move it to the left. As I'm sure you know 18" or even 24" is NOT enough room between the sink and range as that's the high traffic zone. If you could move the window, that would give you the best of both worlds, but I wouldn't let the fact that the sink won't be under the window stop me from maximizing the space, regardless of form.

As far as the oven, you just need an oven cabinet, but it does need to be attached to a wall, or other cabinets, or the floor or ceiling. It has to be stabilized somehow. I'd face the cabinet out into the room, and anchor the other end with the pantry cabinet that's currently next to the utility area. That would allow the fridge to move over as much as possible so the sink could move over as much as possible. And that would give you a base and wall cabinet between the Advantium and the pantry to serve as a landing spot for both. I would NOT want the Advantium faced towards the kitchen area with no landing spot next to it. Things come out of there pretty hot and you need to think about safety here.

Thanks, Holysprings, some good things to think about! I will try to repost a darker pic tomorrow, I need to make more templates first since I made so many drafts then I can do it in ink.

Would turning the oven into the room affect seating capability? I don't anticipate having many occasions where we are using two ovens with company, but I may fall in love with the speed of the Advantium :-). Probably not as much of an issue as a fridge would be. I was thinking the counter across the aisle could be the landing zone since it's literally a pivot, no steps. Bad idea?

I will ask the GC when he comes in a few weeks about the sink. The whole basement is a drop ceiling...except directly under the sink. The pipes run above some ductwork that is drywalled in right next to the wall, so right next to the connection. Anyone know how far that plumbing can move before the actual pipes below need to move?

Can definitely move the range to the left, the 18 in there now are unusable due to clutter, so 12 in of clear space will actually be a net gain! Our current 18 in on the right is home to the knife block and stove utensils, so as crazy as it sounds we prep in a space about 18x12 now. Again, a clear space even at 30 in (24 pictured plus 6 from moving range over) will feel ginormous!

Since we are leaving the utility closet, it sticks out about 6 in past the cabinet line. I don't know if the fridge door would be able to open without a spacer of some sort, so the pantry might have to stay. Or change to 12 in, though that may be a tad tight on storage.

Btw, I'd LOVE to move the window, actually make it a little bigger and one of those garden windows. Unfortunately when we unexpectedly resided the house a few years back I didn't plan for that. While we can afford to change it, I need to be careful to stay with the value of the house. I have $50,000 kitchen tastes but a $15-20,000 kitchen house!

Ok, here is a darker proposed layout, hopefully easier to read. I did move the range per Hollysprings suggestion (thank you!), but left the sink for now until I can figure out if it is possible to move it without tearing the basement ceiling apart.

Any further cmments are welcome! I have no experience with this, so I may be way off mark on some things.

Here are some ideas. Most don't work very well, but they might provoke some that do.

I wanted to switch fridge and range, but that puts hot food too far from table.

Don't like range at a corner, but. . . .

Also, just playing with a way to get landing space for the advantium. Not a good plan because it puts the DW and the ADV. opposite each other on a narrow aisle. But if only one person usually works in the kitchen, it might be worth considering.

I have a preliminary meeting with the guy who took measurements a few weeks ago to see his proposal. Not ordering cabs right away, I have at least 6 weeks to play with, more if needed. My goal is to order before Christmas as my window to work with in May is nonnegotiable. I need everything here and ready!

Thanks so much for those ideas, Bellsmom! My biggest concern with that plan is we need to have a table in there. With access to the sliding door limited by the range, the seating space shrinks quite a bit. I will have to get out the cardboard I stowed away for modeling (learned that from GW!) and see how that feels.

The great room, shown in the current layout more, is off the door at the bottom of the page. What is pictured is about 1/3 the room, it's not very big. Between the door to the kitchen, the windows on the left wall just off the page and the fireplace almost directly across from the kitchen door there just isn't a decent place for a table and chairs. The PO had their dining room set up in one of the rooms they finished in the basement! I'm not willing to do the stairs that much, my knees can't take it.

When we finished our basement, I was not pleased that my DH insisted on a dropped ceiling with "tiles" (nice tiles, not the acoustic ones you see in office buildings). Now that we've had to access that area several times, I'm glad my DH stood firm on the ceiling! We just remove the tiles, do what needs to be done, and replace the tiles.

You might consider doing that to your basement if you have to tear into the ceiling.

To me, the need to repair a ceiling would not stop me from getting as functional a kitchen as I could. The cost of repairing the ceiling will be a small piece of the overall cost of a kitchen remodel - small enough that it may not have much of an impact on the kitchen budget, especially if you say you want it "paint-ready" and do the painting yourself. To me it's "penny wise and pound foolish" to state that a sink cannot be moved b/c you don't want to touch the ceiling in the basement. You may find that you have to do so anyway if new plumbing is needed or if you find any surprises when you start tearing out the kitchen.

In the end, it's our choice, of course, but please think long and hard about what will have the most impact long-term: a much more functional kitchen that you work in every day or the cost to repair a basement ceiling?

Thanks, buehl. I will see what the GC says. While that is just about the only spot that does not have a dropped ceiling with tiles, it's not so much the actual dry wall as it is the potential to have to rip it ALL out to move the ductwork to access the pipes, then replace the ducting, etc. I will ask the GC when we meet in a few weeks. If the duct work doesn't have to be taken out for access I would definitely look at moving the sink. I don't mind spending some money to do this, but I have to see what's reasonable and how the overall budget comes in.

Marcolo, I will post a smaller scale pic of the whole downstairs this evening, I'm headed to work at the moment. If someone can find room for a creative banquette I'm all ears! I'm not entirely sure at this early hour if you are serious about the island, but I will think on that a bit. Thanks for the ideas!

Yes, I was serious about an island. You'd have narrowish aisles, and not all the seating you want (though I doubt a table would give you that either). And you'd have to widen the GR opening (but not take it completely down, I don't think). I'm not positive it would work but your space is within the realm of possibility where you really need to start counting squares on your drawing to see if it fits.

The reason I went there is because even 30" of prep space is very tight.

FWIW
This is from equest17's recent post of new yellow kitchen. Idea for a landing area near the advantium if the layout stays as it is? Could be 12'' wide. No stools, of course. Just a ledge and the drawers could hold hotpads and such.

When we remodeled our kitchen we removed a 6 foot sliding door and replaced it with a ''patio door' with a large glass pane and an adjacent large window. I think you should consider doing this.

I am also suggesting you move the door to the FR to the left a bit. I think there are advantages in this layout that might make these changes worthwhile

I would urge you, if you consider this, to make the new window a ''garden window'' or at least a custom window that comes down to the countertop. I didn't feel I could afford the extra few hundred this would have cost, and I regret that decision. The extra six inches of window above the counter would have pleased me immensely.
Sandra

Thanks, Bellsmom! I can't change the part of the wall that goes outside due to the patio (stair doesn't go the whole length), but the banquette in that space sparks some ideas along with the range in the corner. I really wanted to sketch some things tonight but I spent my time making a drawing of the whole floor for reference.

Here's the first floor for reference, I cannot get a draft where both the kitchen AND the great room are perfect, but this one is close. The great room is accurate, the kitchen suffered the odd loss/gain of a few inches due to walls, but those measurements are detailed in the other models. I swear this is the whole first floor, I didn't realize how small it really was until now!

Williamson- wow some challenges ahead for you!
I like what bell drew - although I can't see the Advantium and not sure about giving up the slider.
If you go with a garden/bay- counter top would be the way to go! I have a garden window but not counter height and if I found GW first....
Let us know what happens tomorrow.

Thanks for asking, bellsmom! I've been working away at drafting out the ideas mentioned and tryin to get a sense for how they all feel. I wasn't very impressed with the cabinet guy's layout, but he also was not completely happy with it. I gave him the one posted above and we are both still working on it.

I did manage to get some preferences out of DH. It takes a lot of patience since he cannot visualize this stuff, so he maxes out at about two decisions a week.
-he does not want to move the range around the corner next to the door
-no changes to the exterior (so no changing the window or sliding door). Can't really blame him for this one since we just resided about 5 years back so it is all new and new doors/windows. That was an emergency situation so we didn't have time to think about changes :-(
-no seating on the wall shared with the bathroom. For some reason this change really freaks him out.

I am hoping to be able to post a bunch of pics of the options suggested this week. I've learned quite a bit about how we actually use the space by working through everything, and oddly enough have come just about full circle with the design.

We decided go go with this cabinet guy too, so using Bellmont 1900 series cabinets, which are frameless. We are opting to stay with the standard furniture board construction based on our discussion with this guy, and both he and his father (founder of the business) put this same construction in their own homes recently even though they could have upgraded for free to plywood since they are the dealer. Their quote with all the bells and whistles was just under $10,000, which is at the top of the range I felt comfortable with, but it's been hard to find frameless products in this area, and they have been by far the most responsive company I contacted, and they are open to all the ideas I have brought from GW.

More drafts/thought process coming this week, I promise! I appreciate all the ideas posted and want to give them all serious consideration.

Ok, I have been spinning my wheels with all these drafts and need some more thoughts. DH is adamant about no stove next to the door as well as no outside changes. I may be able to convince him to put seating on the powder room wall, but it would have to be a really good plan to try.

So we can all see how things shook out, here are the drafts I made based on all the thoughtful comments above.

First, the cabinet guy's draft, which he is not happy with, but it's a place to start. He had some difficulty with the Advantium specs, which he has not worked with before, so he is already aware that is a major issue to work on.

This is an island with the range moved. The range is not moving, so this is out, but I did learn that an island would be mostly a barrier. The laundry area is in the basement, so we would frequently be carrying things through the kitchen around the island. Plus the aisle from the garage door to the center of the room and from the doorway at the bottom of the page to the center needs to be clear or it would be hard to bring large items into the house from the garage.

This is an alternate verson of the island with the lower doorway moved. The paths through the kitchen are improved, but it significantly messes up the great room. I tried adding a table or banquette in the great room, but it was too much. The room looked very cramped, and because of the angle of the stairs we could not put a couch in there, just one loveseat and a chair.

This is Bellsmom's landing area suggestion. While I like the concept, the hallway becomes about 24 inches wide which felt too tight. Especially knowing all the laundry passes through there. I have stared at the lovely suggestions from Bellsmom posted and for the life of me cannot figure out where the extra inches in her posts came from, must be a different scale square grid. But if I had the inches that would work wonderfully!

Then I noticed the island Marcolo suggested was just about table sized. So that inspired this version. And the frustrating discussion about seating on the bathroom wall, which was mostly one of those "what the hell are you talking about?" looks and a gut reaction of "no, feels wrong". Not sure that covering 24 inches of the slider with cabinets would be the best idea, especially since we will eventually be selling. Thoughts?

So that brings me back to a variation on the original design crossed with the cabinet guy design. I like how the bathroom wall is open on the end, makes it feel more spacious. But the Advantium is kind of out of the way. Granted, it's not that far, but not sure about that. And the pantry and fridge are far apart, though I could put it back in a pull out by the fridge and get some wider drawers next to the fridge.

And finally, a revision of the original plan. I am seriously considering a built in type cabinet in the great room to add storage and a window seat since the wall facing the patio is pretty useless. Could put the command center there freeing up some space.

I think I could use some more thoughts, if anyone has any suggestions. I keep going round and round with this in my head.

I reread this and my head is still spinning. I can imagine you are bedazzled by the problems that won't go away and alternatives that won't work.

Any chance of countersinking the fridge into the outside wall, thereby gaining four inches or so? And/or maybe a counter-depth fridge? Even an 8'' shelf on that bathroom wall would be great. But I think counter-depth fridges are pricey.

And apologies for the extra 6'' I put into the passage. The passage is clearly 48'' in yours and 52'' in mine. Don't know where/how I got it, and don't know how to wave a wand and make it happen.

Did you get prices on moving windows or doors? It might not be as much as you think. We resided and then a few years later added on. Its pretty easy to remove siding and reposition it. It doesn't appear any changes in window/doors that have been suggested are that extensive but would make a huge difference in your kitchen.

Why can't you put the table next to the bathroom wall?

I would reconsider some of your objections to these suggestions to get a better layout. JMHO

We went through something like this with our refrigerator placement. Once we gave in to a GW suggestion of where to put it, the rest of the kitchen fell into place.

Say... just throwing something out here. The wall behind the powder room: could you have a shallow pantry there, facing the patio doors, as it were? Not sure what you had planned for the 'utility' pantry but could it move into that shallow pantry wall and then your fridge could move down towards the door, giving you more cabinets/countertop in your main area? Can't say I'm a fan of the utility with the small cab and then the fridge. At the least, wouldn't the fridge be better next to the utility?

Hope I didn't sound harsh in my previous post. It just reminded me of my own DH. He didn't want the range in the best spot because the venting would be a little more work (all DIY). We both didn't want the refrigerator moved because the work triangle we thought would be too big.

Well I told DH what the GWers said and he agreed. It was logical. So now the layout is much better and he laughs that he was stubborn about the changes.

We had a slider in our small, crazy layout, old kitchen. Changed to a single french door, much better.

Debrak, no worries, I know everyone is trying to help. I appreciate your posts.

Deedles, will think on that pantry idea.

I'm headed in for a short work day today (benefit of my turn to work this weekend!). I need to see where the garage wall starts to explore recessing the fridge, look closer at the patio step in relation to the slider, and some other things.

I was having a ton of anxiety about the kitchen last week. But then I had to remember that whatever we do will be better than it is now. Just changing to frameless cabinets and removing the soffits is a huge improvement. And whatever we do it will be more functional than the other houses in the development with this layout, so a nice improvement when we eventually sell.

That also makes it harder to justify other expenses, like replacing our fairly new slider and messing with the siding. But I need to see how expensive that will be. I'm just about ready to call the GC for a more accurate quote and will ask him. I can also check out alternatives online for now.

My budget is starting to come together, but not sure how much lighting will be, need to see what we need first. Cabinets will be about $10k, flooring about $2k, I think.

Previously, I didn't notice your posting of the existing layout on Sunday, Sept. 9, at 21:38.

If your DH stands firm against table by bathroom wall, bringing range around the corner, and eliminating part of the sliding door, what about this:

First, I am assuming that utility room means that things like water heater and possibly furnace are in it, and that moving it would be pricey. Is that so? Or CAN the utility room be moved?

Anyway, consider this:
1. Leave the fridge on the bathroom wall. Would it block the door too much and too often if the fridge were moved to the center of the wall? You could have a 15'' broom closet or pantry on the right (this would give clearance so the fridge door could open and close) and a 15'' drawerstack on the left for a landing area.
2. Leave range and sink where they are. Extend the cabs down to the utility room as you plan.
3. There is room for a smallish pantry either beside the fridge or along the new cab wall toward the utility room or in both locations.
4. Put the advantium on the right side of the sink down in the new cabinet run. Maybe the advantium and a pantry adjacent to the utility room?
5. Table stays about where it is now.

I like this better than having the fridge way down at the far end of the kitchen, and it opens up that narrowish aisle in front of the bathroom.

Sorry for the late response, I did look at all your latest suggestions, Bellsmom. I did play with the table and fridge some more, I have had a mock cardboard table set up for a week or so to see how I like it. Leaving the fridge in the main area makes the room feel cramped and closed off a bit, one of the reasons we wanted to move it. Plus is an ideal situation, meaning me setting the table up and sliding into the chairs carefully, the fridge is right behind the chairs and can just barely be opened. In reality with actual people, there's no way anyone could squeeze by or open a door. I realize we won't always have it set up for 6 peole, but it would be nice to have some family over a little more often. I guess the loss of my grandmother and immenent relocation of my Dad to Mississippi made me realize I should see people more. I guess better to realize that now, right?

First, I'd like to thank everyone that has posted comments and suggestions so far. I appreciate them all, and they gave me a lot to think about. Now I think I finally figured it out!

After spending an afternoon at the cabinet display with my tape measure and playing with cardboard mock ups for the last few weeks, I think I have a layout that may be it!

Thought process below, but here it is, note that I switched over to 10 square/inch paper for more accuracy at this point. 1 square = 3 inches.

Starting at the wall next to the range, 12 inches is the smallest cabinet that had a usable drawer in it, and the pull outs likely won't need a spacer by the wall. Range (self explanatory). 30 inch drawers, will provide soooo much more prep space than we have now, even though mot ideal, and was the biggest size that allows the other elements to work. Will hold kife block/utensils, pots and pans. 33 inch sink, garbage disposal under the small side along with most of the plumbing due to the pipe set up, small recycling pull out under the right side. DW. 18 inch drawer, the smallest size I though would be useful for general storage (misc. Items, wraps/baggies, Tupperware, etc). Fridge with full depth uppers. As much as I would Ike to put it next to the utility closet, it is just too much with all the doors in that tiny place. 24 inch pantry, the smallest size I thought would work. I decided against just a pull out because I need some storage below for larger items, and in the end I'm not sure I would like pulling the whole thing out each time.

Then the short wall. 30 inch drawers that open toward the DW for silverware and dishes. This also makes the counter space extra deep since the run will be 30 inches deep. Then a mixer lift, then the Advantium.

So here are my concerns/questions.
- will having the counter overhang and drawer hardware protrude into the aisle facing the DW be a problem or look odd? I really have no idea.
- with both the DW and bottom drawer open, the drawer will not be able to open fully by about 2 inches. I don't anticipate this being an issue but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm still working out what to do above/below the Advantium, and for the pantry. I need to take an inventory and assign items homes to figure those last bits out.

I also may be able to get a larger garden window at a good discount, so I will be exploring that with the GC next week when he comes. I have quite a list of questions for him!

Any and all additional comments and suggestions are welcome and very much appreciated!

That looks good to my eye, but I'm not the layout guru that some here are. Is your fridge going to be a full depth or CD? Looks like you have a full depth drawn in?

I like how you turned the base cab to face the DW. So you'll have a 'blank' side facing the table area then right? Might be a good spot to hang a beautiful piece of art or a platter or I don't know, something other than the side of a cabinet. Looks close to what you started with but 'tweaked' nicely.

Thanks, Deedles! Haven't thought much about the blank panel facing the room, I know it needs at least a finished panel. There are a few details like that to figure out once the layout is finalized and I know what's happening with the window. The fridge is 33 inches deep, but is called counter depth. I'm not sure how that's counter depth, but it certainly is bigger than I wanted but I was in a hurry because our fridge died. Lesson learned!

Thanks, motherof3sons! I'm hoping lots of planning takes some of the luck out of the picture :-)

Probably because they count the fridge depth without the door. Counter depth in the loosest sense of the term. I find that irritating when they do that. But yeah, live and learn. As long as it keeps your food cold!

how about your fridge setting into the area where you now have drawers facing the dw? you have space there for the depth of it including door depth. the doors of the fridge would open out toward the dw (hopefully double front doors). That would give you a much longer stretch of counter top also.

I did try that, thanks for suggesting though! That leaves a 36x36 chuck of real estate between the back of the fridge and the wall where the great room door is. I'm sure I could work out a sway to get a step in pantry there. But that solid wall of stuff starting right at the door edge really closes off the room, feels cramped. Plus I would have to move the plumbing over a few feet. I could get a very symmetrical layout that way, but I'm not really convinced it works any better aside from more space between the range and sink. And I'd have to pay to move the plumbing.

Still looking for input on the drawer/overhang issue mentioned above and the DW/drawer clearance if anyone has any thoughts...

I'd set back the upper on the short run: the bases opening out into dishwasher are are probably okay-they look 21 inches deep which is an easier drawer to negotiate in that spot. The upper run opens out to table side-correct?-so set back the upper which means less than 39 in width-when you're on the kitchen side /at the drawers/ there won't be an upper cabinet side in your face then.[a 2 sided entry to the upper after you reduce the dimension...hutch-like??]

I agree with Herbflavor about reducing the width of the upper. That's a good point. What will you have in that upper? If dishes, maybe glass in the doors and yeah, a side opening with glass, too? I think Bees kitchen is the most recent that comes to mind with glass on the side of the uppers. It looks really nice, IMO.