Last week I reviewed PBS’s “Carthage’s Lost Warriors,” an episode of Secrets of the Dead produced by the German company ZDF. The program profiled the hypothesis of Dr. Hans Griffhorn, who claims that a boatload of Carthaginians and Celts traveled to South America where they influenced native cultures and became the Chachapoya. Both Dr. Griffhorn and another participant on the show, archaeologist Dr. Warren Church, commented on my review and were not happy about, for the same reason.

In the comments on that review, I noted that the program’s hypothesis bore a similarity to the mythic version of the post-WWII flight of leading Nazis to South America, and while this comment was perhaps not the most artful I’ve made, I was taken aback by outrage of both Griffhorn and Church, apparently because I was thinking in terms of mythic structure whereas they saw the word Nazi and presumed that this was a reductio ad Hitlerum by which my argument is automatically invalidated by dint of Hitler and they therefore win the internet. Griffhorn had the following to say:

Since I am a German scientist and grew up and was educated in Western Germany after the war (I was two years old when the war was over), I know what happened in the Third Reich better than most foreigners and younger people. And that is exactly one of the reasons why I hated two things all my life – any kind of irrationalism and dogmatism, and any kind of racism. And if one would call me a racist or a nazi in Germany, I would bring him to court for calumny. If slender and defamation is the “Sceptics” way of defending paradigms: poor science.

Note that my review said nothing about Nazis, and it was an offhand comment in the comments section. I explained my thinking to Griffhorn, who agreed that the PBS documentary presented his views in a way that could be read as Eurocentric. Church, on the other hand, agreed that the PBS documentary offered a travesty of archaeology as well as both his and Griffhorn’s views (Church does not believe in diffusion from Europe in Antiquity); nevertheless, he was much more upset than Dr. Griffhorn at me and those who participated in the comments thread:

Dr. Giffhorn is not a neo-Nazi or a racist. In his book he denounces Nazism and expresses some concern that his ideas will be interpreted as somehow politically biased. Slandering him as a racist is cheap and unbecoming anyone who really wishes to discuss an issue. […] Your comment about Nazis fleeing to Argentina shows where your mind goes with similar diffusionist theories. You brought the Nazis into the conversation while others did not.... presumably because Dr. Giffhorn is German. You made that remark, not PBS. It was not provoked by anything than your decision to span the centuries to link nationalists fleeing across the Atlantic. No, his narrative of Carthage is not historically linked to the Third Reich or even analogous except that they presumably crossed the same ocean. All diffusionist narratives, and they come from every nation on earth, are based on an inadequate understanding of (in this case) pre-Columbian Native American cultures and their achievements. You can call it racism if you want and say it is akin to a Nazi flight to South America. It's your blog and you are blogger. I don't find the comparison enlightening though it may help you feel that have moral or intellectual high-ground. How or why you chose to compare a real historical event and an alternative (In my opinion unfounded) archaeological narrative I don't know, but this has been a vapid discussion that failed to hit the mark.

I am struggling to find a polite way to express my feelings about Dr. Church’s aggressive statements, but as I pointed to Dr. Church, if Dr. Griffhorn himself recognized the similarity of his ideas to those associated with racism (as Church notes), then it is hardly my imposition of a racial narrative onto the PBS documentary—especially one that took great pains to discuss skin color as “proof” of ethnicity. Now I will admit that the German connection to the show is what made me think of the Nazi flight to South America—but there are two key differences between what I was thinking and what Dr. Church assumes I was thinking. First, it was not the fact that Dr. Griffhorn is German but that the program was produced in Germany by a German production company; that connection, however, is superficial. In terms of the Nazis, I was not thinking of the historical fact that some Nazis emigrated to Argentina but rather the myth that grew up around that fact—the myth that the Nazi leadership slipped out of Europe at the close of the war and set up a secret Nazi mini-state somewhere in South America from which they would plot their return to power. A variation on this theme is the later claim that the Nazis escaped to Antarctica for the same reason. Presumably, if I had said “Antarctica” instead of South America no one would have batted an eyelash because that version was more obviously outlandish. Here I would like to challenge Dr. Church’s claim that diffusionist ideas are not historically connected by showing explicitly the specific structural similarities I saw—as well as the apparent origin of them in a particular diffiusionist idea. I wanted to do this as a chart, but the limits of the blogging platform preclude this, so we’ll have to make due with a bulleted list. Behold the underlying structure of the myth I was, however awkwardly, alluding to:IGNATIUS DONNELLY’S ATLANTIS

Atlantis faces catastrophic destruction

An elite possessing white skin and esoteric knowledge escapes by ship

This elite arrives in the Americas

By dint of their superior skill, technology, and wisdom, they rule over Native people

Remnants of this population can be observed among light or white skinned Natives

BRITISH ISRAELISM

The Jews face catastrophic destruction at the hands of Babylon

A Lost Tribe possessing Chosen blood escapes by land and eventually by sea

This Lost Tribe reaches the British Isles

By dint of their superior wisdom and divine grace, they rule over the British Isles

Modern Britons are genetically and racially connected to the earliest Israelites

JACQUES DE MAHIEU (ESOTERIC NAZI) ON VIKINGS

The Vikings push to expand their territory

An elite possessing white skin and esoteric knowledge cross the ocean by ship

They arrive in South America

By dint of their superior skill, technology, and wisdom, they rule over Native people

Remnants of this population can be observed among light or white skinned Natives, who are “degenerate” Vikings corrupted by miscegination

DE MAHIEU ON THE TEMPLARS

The Knights Templar face catastrophic destruction at the hands of the Church

An elite possessing white skin and esoteric knowledge escapes by ship

This elite arrives in Mexico

By dint of their superior skill, technology, and wisdom, they rule over Native people

Remnants of this population can be observed among light or white skinned Natives

MIGUEL SERRANO (ANCIENT ASTRONAUT THEORIST) ON HYPERBOREANS

Extraterrestrial Hyperborean civilization faced catastrophic destruction due to a comet

An elite possessing white skin and esoteric knowledge escapes by ship

This elite arrives in Antarctica

By dint of their superior blood, they father the ruling white peoples of the world

Remnants of this population can be observed wherever Aryan blood can be found

MIGUEL SERRANO ON THE TEMPLARS

The Knights Templar faces catastrophic destruction at the hands of the Church

An elite possessing white skin and esoteric knowledge escapes by ship

This elite arrives in the Americas

By dint of their superior skill, technology, and wisdom, they rule over Native people

Remnants of this population can be observed among light or white skinned Natives

By dint of their superior skill, technology, and wisdom, they influence Natives but remain genetically and ethnically distinct down to the present

Remnants of this population can be observed among light or white skinned Natives

Despite the superficially diverse hypotheses represented above—covering everything from Knights Templar to Atlanteans to space aliens to Nazis—the underlying structure of the myth is remarkably stable despite its diversity of forms and occasional departures in specific versions. If it is not too ironic, I might label this the Platonic ideal of the myth:

A great civilization is destroyed by an outside force

The civilization’s wise men escape by ship

The wise men arrive in a new land

They use ancient/lost wisdom to civilize the new land

They are the ancestors of the current population and a connection to past greatness

This is not a new myth, though its current form is most obvious in Donnelly’s Atlantis (where he introduces the motif of white skin). Readers with a Classical education will recognize this at once as the foundational myth of Rome itself, as told by Vergil in the Aeneid:

Troy faces catastrophic destruction at the hands of the Greeks

Aeneas, of extraordinary piety and connection to Venus, escapes by ship

He arrives in Latium

By dint of his superior skill and piety, he establishes rule over the natives

He fathers the race that becomes the Romans, who can thus trace their ancestry back to the glories of mythic Troy

The rationalizing account of Snorri Sturluson in the Prose Edda performs the same Trojan trick for the Norse, substituting a human Odin for Aeneas, and Scandinavia for Latium. At its core, this story is a translation myth, explaining how it is that a current people can be connected to a geographically remote great civilization. The defining feature of this myth, however, is the catastrophic destruction of the old civilization (something seen in the story of Superman, too), which explains how it is that the current living people can claim to be the proper successors of the older tradition, without competition from the parent civilization. Many versions of the King Arthur myth use this same idea, placing Arthur as the inheritor of Roman power and glory as that civilization collapses, transferring the prestige of the Empire to England. The ancients performed this as a ritual—they would destroy temples and carry off the cult statues to symbolically translate the power of the god from a defeated enemy to the victor’s city. Early claims for America, specifically that Native Americans were the Lost Tribes, also play on this same theme, offering a way of translating Old World glories to the New and thus justifying European (and later Euro-American) domination of the continent. Many of the modern proponents of such theories probably have no idea that they are proposing something so closely aligned to ancient myths. But it can’t be a coincidence that this ancient structure, of which Donnelly was at least partially aware in constructing his own views, persists in fringe theories. At the grossest level, though, this entire story is a recapitulation of the Near Eastern Flood myth and that of the Watchers, which is why it shows up first with Donnelly and Atlantis, since Donnelly considered the two the same, and Plato seems to have drawn on the Greek version of the Flood myth in writing his Atlantis dialogues:

A great but corrupt civilization is destroyed by the Flood

The civilization’s most pious man escapes by ship, often with tablets of wisdom

The Flood hero is left in a completely new land, wiped clean of the past

He uses ancient/lost/divine wisdom to civilize the world anew

He is the ancestor of the current population and a connection to past greatness

So, we can say that this is a bit of a theme in the Western mythic tradition.

"Many of the modern proponents of such theories probably have no idea that they are proposing something so closely aligned to ancient myths"

It is 100% possible to repeat racist myths without being a racist yourself (eg, EvD)

Reply

Varika

4/10/2014 12:00:24 pm

It's...possible, yes. I can't say that it isn't possible. However, it's also possible to be racist without realizing that's what you're doing, and it's those tiny moments of racism that add up to things like the racial education gaps and the disproportionate representation of minorities in prisons. I don't think it's possible to believe the more blatantly racist myths--such as the above-mentioned Europeans taking over the ignorant natives in the distant past--without holding some small and seemingly harmless spark of racism. Which is exactly why, in my opinion, people need to have it pointed out to them that there is no reason to assume that native Americans were inferior to the Atlanteans or the Knights Templar or the Vikings or the Carthaginians, and this is a spark of racism they might want to reconsider. Really, it's no different from correcting a mispronunciation of a word.

And even if certain TV hosts and production crews don't believe what they're spewing on TV, then they are*still* a racist problem, because they are repeating these racist myths to people who *do* believe them, thus reinforcing racism in *others*, so calling them out on it is *still* the right thing to do. And ignoring the racist aspects of a myth just because you think it's a kin d of cool myth is the wrong thing to do, just like walking past bullying because it doesn't involve you, or not calling the police because that *might* not have been a scream.

Reply

Steve StC

4/10/2014 03:30:13 pm

I don't read any of these other authors you mentioned. But I have read SW's work.

Maybe I missed it.

Jason, please guide me to anything you have seen that backs up your claim that Wolter believes the Knights Templar "rule[ed] over Native people".

Specifically, I am referring to your 4th bullet point which makes the claim that SW believes, "By dint of their superior skill, technology, and wisdom, they [the Templars] rule over Native people" (text in quotes is mine).

Just to be hyper clear, Jason. Your post indicates that Wolter believes the Templars RULED OVER the natives. A little proof that Wolter said, or wrote that, please.

De facto, not de jure, Steve. According to Wolter, the Templars made a land claim covering the entire Mississippi watershed and therefore claimed to be nominal suzerains over the people who lived there. He also asserts that the Templars gave the Natives their religion (Midewin), and that they were able to order the evacuation of Mississippian cities. He also expressed support for the work of Frederick J. Pohl, which claims that Henry Sinclair (whom Wolter considers a Templar) was worshiped as a god (Glooscap) after exercising temporal power in America.

Actually, I suppose that with the land claim providing suzerainty, that would make for nominal de jure rule of a sort, wouldn't it?

Mandalore

4/10/2014 05:41:49 am

It is interesting how ancient motifs that attempted to establish connections with previous important peoples have influenced modern colonialist ideas. The Romans never used their supposed Trojan connections to justify any conquests in Asia Minor or Greece (Dionysius of Halicarnassus argued that the Trojans were actually Greeks). In some ways, modern ideas of a superior ancient race justifying domination (mostly European, but also Afro-centrist and others) are similar to the ancient children in basket stories. The child, deprived of his rightful inheritance returns to take it after being raised somewhere else, including Sargon the Great, Moses, Romulus and Remus, Cyrus the Great, and Alexander the Great. These stories justified leadership/control.

I wonder if it isn't related to whether a culture adopted the motif on its own (to explain its own origins) or whether it was imposed upon them from outside (to justify outside interest in them).

Reply

J.A.D

4/10/2014 09:26:17 am

Julius Caesar utilized the legends around Alexander the Great
to solidify his own divinely regal nature bordering on living God
despite no immediate kinship. Augustus Caesar encouraged
Virgil's epic take on the aftermath of the war to have a Roman
equivalency to what Homer handed the Greeks of the Golden Age.
Augustus believed Aeneas is an ancestor of his, he starts the
dynasty that he sees as the true heirs to Troy's greatness...

J.A.D

4/10/2014 09:32:47 am

More to the point, Brian Boru is a high king of Ireland
and JFK was of a prominent line of descent from him,
but chose to identify with a more mythic prince from
a time roughly 500 years before that of Brian Boru. We
upon making an opine about Camelot must qualify things
a tad, do we want to discuss England in the A.D 500s or
an administration and presidency that existed only a tad
more than a half century earlier? JFK wrapped himself up into
the much older myth and then becomes a political legend.

J.A.D

4/10/2014 09:36:52 am

Parson Weems truly created political myths that almost
deified poor George Washington, we have an equivalency
to what the ancients did as we look at our more dynamic
chief executives, think over Lincoln & TR & FDR & JFK!!!

Thane

4/10/2014 02:23:44 pm

J.A.D,

The Kennedy/Camelot connection came about because "Camelot" was a very popular Broadway play starting in 1960 and it was produced successfully "on the Road" in the US in '63/'64.

It was a clever marketing appropriation by the Kennedy camp and was really used to excellent effect after the assassination to secure Kennedy in the popular imagination and secure him a special place in history (above and beyond what President's normally obtain.)

Mandalore, I am not sure how Al the Great falls into the mythic narrative you propose: "The child, deprived of his rightful inheritance returns to take it after being raised somewhere else, including Sargon the Great, Moses, Romulus and Remus, Cyrus the Great, and Alexander the Great. These stories justified leadership/control. "
Al was never a lost heir. He was raised by Phillip and Olympia and was there when dear old dad was assassinated....and promptly ascended the throne..and while he may have felt threatened by the possible production of a rival heir by Phillip and his new young wife, he was never the lost heir raised elsewhere and so on.

Are you referring to Siwa oracle claiming him to the son of Zeus-Amun?

Thanks!

Mandalore

4/10/2014 03:26:06 pm

Thane,

Alexander as a lost heir is found in the Persian epic the Shahnameh by Firdawsi (11th century). In it he was the older brother of Darius and so was returning to his rightful throne. Thus the Persians weren't conquered by an outsider at all. The later Persian poet Nizameh (12th century), in his Iskandernameh, blends this story with Alexander from the Qur'an (as Dhul-Qarnein). Everyone wants a piece of Alexander, he's just that awesome.

thane

4/12/2014 12:16:34 pm

Thank you, Mandalore!

i didn't realize that Alexander represented in the Shahameh! I have a copy on my shelf but hadn't looked at it in years. I had only sampled through it but it has been on my "to read" list for a long time. I guess it's time to prioritize it.

I'm so excited!

Reply

lurkster

4/10/2014 06:46:23 am

Fascinating pattern you've identified in this reoccurring theme. Perhaps it was a good (constuctive) thing that the Germans gave you grief over the comments in the original PBS post because you've really nailed it down this time around. Bravo!

Reply

Shane Sullivan

4/10/2014 07:10:59 am

In Hancock's defence, he mentions black people being associated with his lost civilization too. Not that that changes the continuity you outlined, of course.

Ignatius Donnelly had a multi-racial diffusion system in which the white people were the upper caste priest-kings. Hancock seems to have followed that model, as did James Churchward with Mu. Hancock tries to tie the Olmec heads to Africans, but he doesn't assign them royal or godly roles in the lost civilization.

Reply

Dave Lewis

4/10/2014 07:32:35 am

There are numerous emotion-evoking words like "nazi" and "racist". It seems to me that when many people read these words they stop thinking about what is being actually being said and have an emotional reaction. How many times have you had to explain that you aren't characterizing Scott Wolter as a racist though he (perhaps unknowingly) expounds old racist myths?

Reply

Walt

4/10/2014 01:05:34 pm

A better question would be how many times does Jason have to be told he's violating Godwin's Law or race-baiting before he learns. And, yes, I realize he still thinks he's completely right and never does such things. It's his blog so he never has to learn, but it always ends all intelligent discussion about an issue. Or, in most cases here, prevents it from ever occurring.

Given that the Nazis developed their archaeological ideas from the same mixture of occult, Atlantis, and imperial-colonial narratives as the ancient astronaut theorists, how do you propose to discuss one without mentioning the parallel development of the other? How would you for example discuss the Oera Linda book, a contribution to Atlantis literature, without acknowledging that Himmler used the hoax to support Nazism?

Jason,I have been following your blog for years.Drawing the parallels between fringe/alternative history-Voodoo pseudo science & expressions of racism or racially based theories,is fine, but the recurring theme of "anti-semitism" is a major turn off.
Honestly I don't understand the sinister fixation around it.As far as I see it,the universe doesn't orbit around the "Jewish question".I leave that to pathological antisemites & Judeophiles.

Mark L

4/10/2014 10:04:15 pm

You know Godwin's Law isn't actually a law, right?

J.A.D

4/12/2014 08:26:26 am

Murphy's Law got added to by the Peter Principle
and Parkinson's Law, and although Godwin's Law
is heartily reflective of the administration change
between G.H.W. Bush & W.J Clinton, and is not so
accurate about the polarized political dialogue ole
"Joltin' Joe" McCarthy triggered when doubting the
U.S Army, IKE & D.C as he and we were "red hunting"
it does look like it is a handy rule of thumb. Not all
flame-wars when at a "white heat" level worse than
James Cagney's character in the gangster flic of the
same name go the total distance, only often just the
very political ones who assume the seating arrangements
of yesteryear's assembly in Auld France were eternal
an universal. modern Poly-Sci often dovetails all opinion
polls into a 5 point scale that also has its "litmus test" too!

J.A.D

4/10/2014 09:05:46 am

on a psychological and
mythic joseph campbell level
ARTHUR = AENEAS = BEOWULF
on a timeline, they are not at all
contemporary or identical.

Reply

J.A.D

4/10/2014 09:08:44 am

Plato's tidy version of the Atlantis Myth
does not have a bold hero at its very core.
There is no legendary hero, only a story.

Reply

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 03:08:45 am

Jason …

Ummmm … You DO frequently -- reflexively ??? -- for some reason seem to tend to see vile racialist / foul "Nazi" / nasty white Nordic supremacist ideology in the background WHEN EVER the question of cultural diffusion / immigration, cultural contact is raised as a possibility …

I dunno … Maybe you would do well to take your critics more seriously … ???

Reply

Mandalore

4/11/2014 05:57:49 am

I don't understand. Do you deny that many of the foundations of modern ideas, including cultural diffusion, history, theosophy, anthropology, ancient aliens, etc. are not based on nineteenth century European ideas that were often informed by ingrained racism in the culture of the time? Or do you object to acknowledging that background? Pretending it doesn't exist invites ignorance of the negatives of the past and invites the reemergence of those ideas. Racism has pervaded our society for centuries and still does so on many levels. It may be unpleasent and you may not like thinking about it, but that doesn't mean it should be expunged from the dialogue.

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Dave Lewis

4/11/2014 09:53:41 am

Very well said!

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 10:03:21 am

Look …

LOTS of ideas and claims and possibilities and undisputed FACTS (including "Darwinism") have been variously invoked or co-opted by one or another ideological movement for vile purposes …

So what … ???

But when EVER a possibility of "cultural diffusion" is raised and *someone* IMMEDIATELY starts slinging vague imputation of "RACISM" … it has a way of POISONING the well … (hint, hint: "ANYBODY who thinks that cultural diffusion MAY have taken place … is probably a [ … closet or unwitting NAZI … ] … ")

Hey … How about this … ??? Let's discuss FACTS and EVIDENCE and their possible Interpretations … ??? duh

Creature from the Snark Lagoon

4/11/2014 10:25:15 am

I think it is clear that Jason takes criticism very seriously. Anytime an error is pointed out he corrects it. That said, there is a big difference in honest criticism and the puny fan-boy attacks that the trolls post here.

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Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 10:35:56 am

Let's HOPE that we can put the imputation of racialism or white Nordic superiority and Nazi ideology to REST as creepy relics of the PAST … and instead have an open honest fresh air discussion of FACTS and EVIDENCE and their various possible interpretations … ???

Why not … ???

Only Me

4/11/2014 11:52:20 am

I agree, Phil. Except, one of the "possible interpretations" of facts and evidence *is* the implied racism, Nordic superiority and Nazi ideology that continue to be dredged, unwittingly or not, from the past. Creepy relics or not, without fully acknowledging their continuing influence on modern rehashes of old theories, again, unwittingly or not, they will remain ingrained in those theories. It would be far more responsible for supporters of those theories to say, "This is the origin, what was commonly believed to be true. However, my research suggests...".

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 12:11:20 pm

So …

You think that any and every discussion of "Darwinism" -- right out*of*the*gate should begin with, be sprinkled with throughout, discussions of racialism, European triumphalism, eugenics, etc., etc. … ???

You've confused evolutionary theory with Social Darwinism, Phil. Social Darwinism came much later, and when it is invoked, it of course requires a discussion of its dark origins.

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 12:43:08 pm

Indeed, "social Darwinism" was a very nasty outgrowth of "Darwinism" ….
But see … If OUT*of*the*Gate ANY discussion of ANYTHING must begin with a breathless discussion of scandals and perversions … it IMMEDIATELY prejudices the discussion …

Okay … Charles Darwin and Albert Einstein were MEN … and … *shudder* … did you KNOW that most women who are sexually assaulted … are sexually assaulted by MEN … ???

Hyperdiffusionism originates in a Eurocentric worldview, essentially no different from Greek attempts to define all the world as degenerate offspring of the Greek heroes; there is no way around the fact that these claims are tied intimately to such ideas. It isn't a "scandal"; it is the very foundation of hyperdiffusionism.

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 12:53:00 pm

So …

You CONCEDE that you don't "get" the difference between ideological "hyper-diffusionism" and … "cultural diffusion" …

THAT explains your reflexive relentless confusion of the two ...

Only Me

4/11/2014 12:54:00 pm

Unless they were accused or convicted of sexual assault, your question is irrelevant.

Proposing that the Mound Culture of America is the result of a lost white civilization, murdered by the savage natives, subjects the idea to a discussion of racism, *because* there is no evidence of a lost white civilization. The entire idea is founded on a racist view that removes Native American involvement with the mounds.

Cultures were in occasional contact, though we know of no Old World contact with ancient America. But we are talking about hyperdiffusion--the originating claim in this discussion was that Carthage had centuries of trans-Atlantic contact that resulted in widespread transformation of Native cultures.

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 01:00:26 pm

THE question about "cultural diffusion" -- or not -- is ALWAYS: What are the FACTS … ??? What is the EVIDENCE … ???

Ironically, the idea put forth in another set of blog posts -- that there COULDN'T have been cultural contact between Hawaii and Mexico, but that an intriguing artifact found in Hawaii MUST have been transported there by modern (white) Hippies … IS rather white*racial, isn't it … ???

Oh, come off it, Phil. You know damn well that I was speaking of trans-oceanic contact in the historic period. You're playing more of your trolling "gotcha" games to distract from the fact that this entire discussion is predicated on a falsehood: I spent *thousands* of words evaluating the "evidence" for Carthaginian-Celtic exploration of Peru, and, having found little to recommend it, consigned the story to the realm of myth. You asked for an evaluation of evidence, and that's exactly where I started; it is *because* the evidence doesn't stand up that I proceed to look at what causes people to believe what evidence can't support.

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 02:01:21 pm

Jason …

Ummm … What you OUGHT to be able to say ... is that you have examined the evidence that others have brought forward and YOU find it unconvincing …

That is DIFFERENT than saying, "There is NO evidence … "

As far as I am aware, there has in my lifetime been only ONE guy who could claim to be "the world's greatest expert," i.e., Prof. Irwin Corey … and while he is still living, I haven't heard his opinion on these questions …

So ...

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/11/2014 02:52:30 pm

LOL …

I wouldn't give our gracious host such a broad-brush dismissal as THAT …

BUT … There DO seem to be some pre-judices operating here (including the an already noted markedly reflexive resort to invocation of a racialist boogeyman) ...

Mark L

4/14/2014 02:35:14 am

Phil, please provide links to your blog posts, where you discuss the evidence for whatever sort of "diffusion" that's being peddled this week; so we can evaluate and discuss it. Thanks!

Rev Gil Photsch

4/11/2014 01:58:03 pm

Jason....

Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up.

Reply

Ian

4/12/2014 11:46:17 am

I always feel so embarrassed when it's a german person putting forth this kind of thing. It's hard to have any sense of pride when things like this come along to reaffirm stereotypes i've been trying to subvert for my whole life.

Reply

Ian

4/12/2014 12:32:42 pm

Not that they're completely baseless, historically speaking.

Reply

Ian

4/12/2014 12:35:17 pm

The stereotypes I mean. Trying to be super clear because misunderstandings on this topic can very quickly snowball.

Dave Lewis

4/12/2014 01:28:03 pm

Hi Ian!

You shouldn't feel embarrassed when one of your countrymen makes a fool of himself. As far as I can tell the distribution of nutjobs is rather uniform across the entire world!

Reply

Ian

4/12/2014 06:37:48 pm

Thank you for that. It's ironic that I developed a strong sense of justice in relation to the treatment of others from teasing I got over my pale skin and an admitedly somewhat frightening german childrens book given to my sister and I by our Oma.

It had many tales designed to scare children into behaving, it was called Struwwelpeter, but there was one odd story that always stuck with me. In it some boys with are teasing a black child and Saint Nicholas, who is depicted as some sort of giant dips the boys in ink to teach them an ironic lesson. It really doesn't hold up by todays standards of political correctness but this book was written just under a hundred and fifty years ago, and it did leave the right impression on me in the end, that is to treat people the same regardless of skin color, so I still love this horrifying book. I came to these conclusions long before I learned of the Nazis or even slavery.
I did my best to fact check all of this.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12116/12116-h/12116-h.htm

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/12/2014 05:05:03 pm

Ian --

By all means, try as hard as you can to resist the racialist propaganda stereotypes and ideological nonsense … and just LOOK AT the EVIDENCE offered ...

Reply

Ian

4/12/2014 05:36:50 pm

Evidence of what? Offered by whom?

Rev. Phil Gotsch

4/13/2014 05:55:15 am

Exactly … !!!

The "evidence offered" SHOULD be examined quite apart from the question of by "WHOM it is offered" ...

Ian

4/12/2014 05:29:49 pm

Well I actually live in America, but my mother was born in Frankfurt and I have relatives there and I've always felt connected to that side of my heritage, but it can be pretty hard to find specific examples of German leaders from history that you can point to as great role models. At least it's mostly a civilised and somewhat socially progressive country today, and I can take pride in that.

Reply

Only Me

4/12/2014 07:26:07 pm

As a suggestion, Ian, Erwin Rommel always struck me as someone that you could point to as an exemplary German leader. He fought, not for Nazi ideology, but as a patriot who loved his country.

His military prowess won the respect of his enemies, but it was his willingness to ignore orders to commit slaughter of those same enemies (and civilians), that won their admiration.

I remember an episode of Greatest Tank Battles, entitled "The Battle of 73 Easting", where one of the officers that was there recounted how an Iraqi POW asked why the American soldiers kept a picture of their enemy, Rommel. He said one of his corporals looked at the guy and said, "If you had read up more on Rommel, you wouldn't be in the back of my Bradley." I admit it, I laughed like hell!

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Ian

4/13/2014 03:41:55 am

Thank you I will have to read about him!

What about Konrad Adenauer? As far as I have been able to understand he was a good person for his time and a great and compassionate leader, but I've always been wary of publicly praising him in case there is some sort of deep controversy that I'm unaware of in regards to him.

Only Me

4/13/2014 01:12:09 pm

Check out this link for a look at how he's been viewed by critics and supporters alike:

http://www.tpaulshippy.com/Adenauer.htm

This should give you a good start if you want to explore further.

Ian

4/13/2014 03:22:59 pm

Fascinating, thank you.

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Dawn

4/13/2014 03:24:59 pm

Nazis in South America? Who would believe such a thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazis_in_South_America

Oh.

When you involve Nazis, you'd better expect Godwin's Law to come into play.

Somehow you also missed the Afro-Centrist view of the world, which follows the same outline, only with people from Sub-Saharan Africa bringing enlightenment to the natives.

No, I didn't miss it. The Afrocentrist view is a purposeful inversion of the traditional Eurocentric view in a transparent effort to counter the racist implications of the imperialist and colonialist theories. I've written extensively about it elsewhere on this site.

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{jad}

4/19/2014 07:00:06 am

But this is the case about 12,000 to 15,000 years ago as coastlines
globally were on the verge of seeing an unusual string of floods etc.
The gods & goddesses lived before the start of our last Ice Age or
during it, and all Titans are at that Younger Dryas interface. (imoho)
we now are mere mortals with a mutant's delusions of grandeur...as
an earlier ecosystem & ecosphere holistic balance is being evolved
away from by a series of small steps... these increasing mutations!!!