Namdrol wrote:Just accept it, we don't think tantric ngondro is that important over all. No use in trying to convince us.

N

I accept that, but the number of personal attacks against me recently show that my opinions are not respected here. I am not trying to convince anyone that Ngondro or the two stages are necessary, I just mention that they are done normally within the Nyingma as a complement to Dzogchen practice, nothing more than that. Trying to make that in to that I am showing disrespect to ChNN just make any kind of discussions about Dzogchen impossible.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Namdrol wrote:There is no creation stage, completion stage or deities in Vima Nyinthig.

Rongzom states quite clearly that there is no need for the two stages in the sixth chapter of his major work -- his approach to Dzogchen works equally well if you are a tantric practitioner or not.

Plus there is a broad understanding in sems sde, klong sde, etc. that deity yoga is not necessary.

I don't think Senge Wangchuk was that involved with deity yoga -- there is no evidence that he emphasized it at all. I am sure he knew it, however. Aro Yeshe either.

What you did before you practice Dzogchen is not that important. As you agree already, Dzogchen is not gradual.

N

Lots of Dzogchen termas contain sadhanas, instructions on the two stages and Ngondro's. You even told me yourself that the 17 Tantras contain Tantric material. Still all Dzogchen texts say that the two stages is not necessary.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Namdrol wrote:Just accept it, we don't think tantric ngondro is that important over all. No use in trying to convince us.

N

I accept that, but the number of personal attacks against me recently show that my opinions are not respected here. ...

I'm sure that not true for most of us.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Namdrol wrote:Just accept it, we don't think tantric ngondro is that important over all. No use in trying to convince us.

N

I accept that, but the number of personal attacks against me recently show that my opinions are not respected here. I am not trying to convince anyone that Ngondro or the two stages are necessary, I just mention that they are done normally within the Nyingma as a complement to Dzogchen practice, nothing more than that. Trying to make that in to that I am showing disrespect to ChNN just make any kind of discussions about Dzogchen impossible.

/magnus

I don't think I know anyone who doesn't respect your opinions, Magnus, but then again I tend to fail noticing those things. Some people may not agree with you now and then, but that shows honesty, not lack of respect. I've been around long enough to learn that reading your posts carefully is well worth the time. I also don't think you are being disrespectful to ChNN in any manner by stating your mind. I'm also not sure anyone else here thinks that way (that you are showing lack of respect, I mean), but it's unlikely.Yes, Ngöndro is done as a complement to Dzogchen practice very often. Nothing wrong with that. But seems to me that the discussion was centered around the absolute necessity of this or that specific tantric practice in a Dzogchen context, as i think we all agree that they may be done as complements according to one's circumstances. There are lamas who think ngöndro is indispensable. There are lamas who don't. One should follow one's teacher on this and, if such freedom exists, do as one thinks is better for his own case after close consideration. That's how I see it, at least.

Namdrol wrote:Just accept it, we don't think tantric ngondro is that important over all. No use in trying to convince us.

N

I accept that, but the number of personal attacks against me recently show that my opinions are not respected here. I am not trying to convince anyone that Ngondro or the two stages are necessary, I just mention that they are done normally within the Nyingma as a complement to Dzogchen practice, nothing more than that. Trying to make that in to that I am showing disrespect to ChNN just make any kind of discussions about Dzogchen impossible.

/magnus

I don't think I know anyone who doesn't respect your opinions, Magnus, but then again I tend to fail noticing those things. Some people may not agree with you now and then, but that shows honesty, not lack of respect. I've been around long enough to learn that reading your posts carefully is well worth the time. I also don't think you are being disrespectful to ChNN in any manner by stating your mind. I'm also not sure anyone else here thinks that way (that you are showing lack of respect, I mean), but it's unlikely.Yes, Ngöndro is done as a complement to Dzogchen practice very often. Nothing wrong with that. But seems to me that the discussion was centered around the absolute necessity of this or that specific tantric practice in a Dzogchen context, as i think we all agree that they may be done as complements according to one's circumstances. There are lamas who think ngöndro is indispensable. There are lamas who don't. One should follow one's teacher on this and, if such freedom exists, do as one thinks is better for his own case after close consideration. That's how I see it, at least.

All the best.

Well Dechen, of course I agree with most of what you say. I am not convinced about this splitting of Dzogchen and Tantra mainly because, like I mentioned before, there are many Dzogchen terma's as well as the 17 Tantras that contain both as a complete teaching. The oldest texts that science knows that mentions Dzogchen are actually Mahayoga Tantric texts. Of course ChNN say that they are separate paths and if he is your teachers perhaps it is important to believe or have faith in this. My Guru teach Dzogchen as embracing in harmony the complete nine yanas as the epitome of the Buddhas teaching. I know you met him so I guess you know what I am talking about. Their approaches might seem very different but perhaps that is just a limit in our capacity to grasp the full picture.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

Namdrol wrote:Just accept it, we don't think tantric ngondro is that important over all. No use in trying to convince us.

N

I accept that, but the number of personal attacks against me recently show that my opinions are not respected here. I am not trying to convince anyone that Ngondro or the two stages are necessary, I just mention that they are done normally within the Nyingma as a complement to Dzogchen practice, nothing more than that. Trying to make that in to that I am showing disrespect to ChNN just make any kind of discussions about Dzogchen impossible.

/magnus

It is certainly not true for me ... I do appreciate you much magnus,

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Namdrol wrote:Just accept it, we don't think tantric ngondro is that important over all. No use in trying to convince us.

N

I accept that, but the number of personal attacks against me recently show that my opinions are not respected here. I am not trying to convince anyone that Ngondro or the two stages are necessary, I just mention that they are done normally within the Nyingma as a complement to Dzogchen practice, nothing more than that. Trying to make that in to that I am showing disrespect to ChNN just make any kind of discussions about Dzogchen impossible.

/magnus

It is certainly not true for me ... I do appreciate you much magnus,

Sönam

Thanks Sönam, considering the many heated arguments we had about this subject the fact that you appreciate my opinions feels particular heartwarming.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

heart wrote:Well Dechen, of course I agree with most of what you say. I am not convinced about this splitting of Dzogchen and Tantra mainly because, like I mentioned before, there are many Dzogchen terma's as well as the 17 Tantras that contain both as a complete teaching. The oldest texts that science knows that mentions Dzogchen are actually Mahayoga Tantric texts. Of course ChNN say that they are separate paths and if he is your teachers perhaps it is important to believe or have faith in this. My Guru teach Dzogchen as embracing in harmony the complete nine yanas as the epitome of the Buddhas teaching. I know you met him so I guess you know what I am talking about. Their approaches might seem very different but perhaps that is just a limit in our capacity to grasp the full picture.

/magnus

When I first met Dzogchen, and my first contact with Buddhism was through a Dzogchen teacher, it was all pretty traditional. The tantric approach was what I was used to and when I met your lama, no doubt an excellent teacher, all I knew was the tantric approach to Dzogchen. I didn't even know there was another way. This is not a path I loathe by any means! It's a most wonderful path.When ChNN clicked for me as "this is your lama", I still was extremely raw regarding his approach to Dzogchen. It didn't have nothing to do with his specific approach, that I barely knew. I couldn't wrap my mind around it as it was something I wasn't used to. So I tried to read him under my prior Vajrayana view. This worked till the point when I knew I had to drop it and really see what he was saying. This was the emptying the cup part I spoke about earlier. He didn't go against the teachings I had. On the contrary, I was able to understand them better. It's like I was in a room inside a field. The walls were torn apart. The space of that room I was in just melted in the whole space of the field quite naturally. Besides the falling down of the walls, the space remained exactly the same as it was. It just had no more walls. I hope you understand this made up analogy, since I find it hard to describe it any other way.Today, the approach he presents seems best suited to me. This doesn't mean that others would benefit from it more than they do with the tantric approach, but in my case I couldn't go back even if I wanted.

You are very much appreciated, Magnus and I hope I can always count with your honesty and sincere opinions. There's no problem whatsoever if we have disagreements in this or that specific point. I value what you say, seldom miss a post of yours and it has been like this for long now (much prior to this board); I also know I'm not alone when I write this.

I love you Magnus. One thing that has been going thru my head these days is that the whole situation of dharma and yanas is different than we take it to be. This approach that approach so many approaches, but all this is betraying something wrong with the whole thing. By my estimation this deal ought to be straightforward. The fact that it is not means something has gone wrong. The issue reminds me of my engineering days. When, the system was glitching we patched it. Then, slowly over time all the patches led to a breakdown. Then, we had to do an update; later a re-write. Over time the system bore little resemblance to the original scheme. Though it might work, actually, the reimagined system would almost have a totally different purpose than the original. Then, we would work hard to redesign it to be just like the original. I feel like that has happened in Buddhism. It began with the Pali translation of whatever language Buddha actually spoke. Now fast forward to Dzogchen and we have been trying to get back to the essence. With each incarnation of Dzogchen we are going more to the essence. The more we do that the more it resembles early Buddhism. Could this deal be subject to further refinements and tuning? Of course it could. See some of the Bon teachings on the matter. The whole sense of attachment to one's lineage, path and such is the cause for much suffering. We should push further for further refinement and tuning. Ultimately we will get to the beginning.

You are one of the people on this forum whose posts I always read. They are informed and interesting. Along with Namdrol, Cone, Dechen and a few others, your posts and opinions are what keep this forum interesting for me.

Also, we share a Guru....Mingyur Rinpoche has been my main teacher for the past 10 years

i am sorry to disrupt the conversation, but being new to this forum which provides access to so many learned and seasoned practitioners, i was just hoping that you could clear up a couple of very simple and basic questions that i am embarrassed to even ask but, as my confusion has only increased with each new comment, my curiosity and doubts have now trumped my pride so here goes...

For Magnus and any others who are "pro" ngondro: how does doing ngondro improve or increase buddha nature? and conversely how is buddha nature negatively affected if one doesn't do any ngondro?

And for all those who are "con" ngondro: how is buddha nature diminished or degraded by doing ngondro? and how does not doing any ngondro improve or augment buddha nature?

You have all received far more teachings and done more practice and retreat than i have or ever will so i thank you in advance for your patience and kindness in going to the trouble to help dispel my ignorance and confusion.

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

I like your questions. Here's my answer and it is entirely my own based on my current understanding:

Buddha Nature is not affected by any accepting or rejecting, any doing or not doing, any accomplishment or lack of accomplishment. However, one's ability to recognize Buddha Nature is very much affected by one's obscurations (drib-pa).

but if that is the case then why not? does receiving teachings or studying with Namkhai Norbu or any master affect buddha nature in any way? what about earning a living, making money, eating, sex, etc. etc.? why do you do any of these?

it is easy to see many benefits from doing ngondro from the mundane physical benefits of doing prostrations such as weight loss, stronger cardiovascular system, etc. to more subtle emotional and social benefits of mandala offerings and guru yoga such as humility, increased openness, generosity, a kinder and more loving nature, etc.) so it seems easy to understand why one might want to, or even should do it.

so does doing ngondro harm buddha nature in some way that would make you warn others not to or discourage people from doing it if they desire to?

Because it (Buddha Nature) is obscured by defilements, and Ngondro (which is all, really, variations on Guru Yoga) purifies defilements, clarifies obscurations, and generates merit.

Of course, you knew that.

While I'm here, I'd just like to say I appreciate Magnus, and everyone else here. There are a variety of approaches, and a variety of teachers....in my opinion, Magnus' main concern is with a certain attitude that I've seen on display, as well, with regard to "remaining in the view" as the sole method being touted by students of various teachers, in both Dzokchen and Mahamudra traditions, and the active denigration of more formal sessions or techniques. It's clear ChNN doesn't reflect this, nor does any teacher I've met or heard of, but nevertheless this denigration does occur.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Those pro ngondro will say we have many habitual obscurations that make recognizing the buddha-nature difficult if not impossible. Ngondro helps one to gather merit and wisdom until the direct introduction will have a very clear and memorable impact and not get lost on an unready vessel.