This despicable man asked me to help sort things out and try to make sense of his life, to enable him to get out of bed , at least, not to even begin to hope he would try to leave his house.

Lets call him Peter. He has anxiety neurosis and personality situated on the autistic-schyzotypal continuum.Peter is very under the weather and throws away his money gambling, drugs, drinking and other obsessional diversions to numb his mind from the acute effects of his ever recurring angst.

His life goes from binge to binge, his job is about to terminate him, his wife has a boy friend whom she poses as a threat at times when she is ready to walk out, their home is about to be sold at a foreclosure sale, and they are without a clue ,as to where they would move to, as their credit fell south after the last bankruptsy.

Their kids' condition for them for taking them in is that they go clean and sober and serve them hand and foot.do it, forcing them into the stupor of unending servitude.

Peters big shtick is his gambling problem, and his stealing, particularly after hours of losing money.

They quarrel constantly about infidelity and he has suggested counseling but she thinks that's crazy and he can go but she would never go , especially to marriage counseling.no way, no how.

Their youngest son committed suicide because being abused by clergy and his wife two timed him . even though he was faithful to her , and in spite of being less then an attractive cougar, hunting bars for one night stand hookups. before her previous husband beat the hell out of her,. being a cop after charges were leveled against him , thrown out of the force, seamlessly , leaving her unloved , and turning her into a woman set on revenge.

He sadly shook , as he lofted his glass of Chablis, trying to hide delicately the wrenching seizures beginning to be noticeable.

So Peter looks squarely in my eye, and stutters with that familiar tone that he retained since their high school days that "This is why I need to drink, cause I can't stand to loose and my old lady worries constantly about loosing the old domicile .We are now the butt of the neighborhood for

hiding behind the overgrown shrubs and trees , resembling a forest.

As he speaks I wonder why he can not get out from under this tangled web, the only conclusion I can make is that he likes it that way.Compelled by a deep urge,as strange as it seems, I have spoken with people who state matter of factly that most homeless people want to be homeless.

He must be a retard, but a romantic fool of a retard,, always going on and on about life after death, and his obsessional fear of falling(failing?) , especially his deep hatred of anyone able to take up sky-diving as a sport.

I told him I'm pretty good at seeing his falling as a metaphor , for his ultimate fear of downward mobility into untold miseries of having to move to the wrong side. from which it took him nearly 30 years to escape from.

He intimates that he does not want to return to the dive, where he could deny his loneliness , containing a mix of drunks where he spent his time in early adulthood. , It being the only watering hole this side of what he called my side of paradise.

So he goes on and on about his need to gamble big to save the house, but his.losses are usually followed by despair, drink and unnerving compulsive cleptomania.

An alarmingly accurate microcosm of the Western Psyche ... intentional or otherwise.

As implied ... the aberrations within the collective psyche may have advanced beyond the point they can be safely arrested and repaired.

Reminds me of an experience involving my son many years ago. At the time the medical community told me his brain had been rewired and bringing his mind back to normalcy involves considerable risk. As it turned out they were right.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:An alarmingly accurate microcosm of the Western Psyche ... intentional or otherwise.

As implied ... the aberrations within the collective psyche may have advanced beyond the point they can be safely arrested and repaired.

Reminds me of an experience involving my son many years ago. At the time the medical community told me his brain had been rewired and bringing his mind back to normalcy involves considerable risk. As it turned out they were right.

Without pressing on boundaries would/could You be more detailed about how this happened to him and how it was resolved or left unresolved? If not I do understand.

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:An alarmingly accurate microcosm of the Western Psyche ... intentional or otherwise.

As implied ... the aberrations within the collective psyche may have advanced beyond the point they can be safely arrested and repaired.

Reminds me of an experience involving my son many years ago. At the time the medical community told me his brain had been rewired and bringing his mind back to normalcy involves considerable risk. As it turned out they were right.

Without pressing on boundaries would/could You be more detailed about how this happened to him and how it was resolved or left unresolved? If not I do understand.

The short answer is "no".

OTH ... I'm eager to participate in a small group genuinely interested in searching for answers to the questions you pose.

Let me start ...

If one walks in the pouring rain without an umbrella ... one gets wet ... drenched.

Walking in the rain.jpg (42.22 KiB) Viewed 4965 times

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Meno_ wrote:Ok thanks. Then I'm all wet. I grew up in Minnesota. Used to it. Bit its a good start.

You set the tone, the structure and the goal. In for it, I am keenly interested, it rains, I don't need umbrellas, its like fun , like singing in the rain.

Whoa Horsey!

Whoa Horsey.jpg (210.62 KiB) Viewed 4946 times

I'm in for a collaborative effort ... a fluid process.

Let's hope your enthusiasm is contagious ...

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Meno_ wrote:Contagion has a dark side, and it overwhelms its positive connotation. I still have hope against a duplicitous anomaly, that You are singularly focused on the bright side!

Let's try to avoid distractions.

I've spent some 'background' time ... ergo ... not focused/intentional ... reflecting on the cartoon ... the rain cartoon. Here are some thoughts in no particular order.

1) There is some white space in the cartoon image ... despite where this exercise may take us there will remain stuff beyond our grasp.

2) Rain is impartial ... we should avoid making judgements, proselytizing any personal beliefs ... religious, scientific, philosophical and so on.

3) Degree of success depends on the participants willingness to stand 'naked' in the rain ... figuratively speaking ... though literally speaking sounds like fun too.

4) The image contains a boy and a girl ... a "whole" ... reminds me of Yin Yang ... male and female being necessary components of the 'whole'.

5) The boy has a preference for science/analysis ... the girl seems more content with intuition. Reminds me of Jordan Petersen's comment ... "Life is a catastrophe ... accept it ... work with it ... not against it."

6) The dialogue and the measure of success should be experiential.

Your turn.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

I tried reading some of Laing's book "The Divided Self" ... tough sledding for me ... though the following sentenced jumped out at me.

... and that the cracked mind of the schizophrenic may let in light which does not enter the intact minds of many sane people whose minds are closed. Ezekiel, in Jaspers's opinion, was a schizophrenic

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Laimg was a strange man. Literally. His personal life,? In tatters, and so different from his professional life, as if the impersonal - with a view to help the most, objectively speaking, I believe his kids leveled charges of indifference and some cruelty against him.

Somewhat like Immanuel Kant, who tried to connect and make sense of an early disjointed world, actually kicking his servants down the stairs

There is some sense in this, even Jung, treating schizophrenics, his odium was that in order to treat them, you had to speak their language. get into their work. Many in the Freudian school are too afraid to get lost there

I guess this leads to the unavoidable : ' It takes one to know one"

Or, to get out into light, you have had to know darkness, at least borderline figurative/literally.

I did not miss the metaphors in Your rainy day description, but did not concern with them, since I did not figure it was a set stage for other things to follow.

Incidentally it was Marcus Auerilus who said, ' An untested virtue has no merit,'

The great dramatists of antiquity drscribed journeys through hell. I remember a member of ILP called Stuart, he came to see me here in California, I was in a nasty mood, I picked him up at the railroad station, and I was abrupt and uncompromising, and regret that, he was unable to follow me in a journey like Rimbaud into the season of hell, but now I'm thinking he is presently living under a different incarnation here at ILP.

If so he may suspect the same thing of me differently as well.

Your turn.

Since I have not adopted Your format, style , or objectives , as I promised I would, could You feed back Your opinion , whether free associative of traditional format should be used, further on, if, we get there?

Last edited by Meno_ on Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I allude to Heaven and Hell through association with, , Huxley, who was Laing's close friend pointing to the association as a very tightly knit group of like minded thinkers. Others in the Philadelphia group were Hogey Carmichle and Timothy Leary.

Since I have not adopted Your format, style , or objectives , as I promised I would, could You feed back Your opinion , whether free associative of traditional format should be used, further on, if, we get there?

I'm most comfortable with a fluid approach ... no boundaries ... no rules.

Paraphrasing your post ...

Human life embodies a spectrum of color ... black to white and countless shades of gray in between. For me, how does one traverse this spectrum? Is it always via conscious/intentional decisions/actions.

Let me share a personal experience:

It happened in February 2000.I woke up one morning and for some reason figured I should try to get help ... this was one of those occasions where I went to seek help for my mis-fitness. I was living in Guelph at the time and Guelph is home to the Homewood Health Centre ... One of the largest mental health and addiction facilities in the country offering programs that are specialized, unique, and national in scope.Background data:

I was living with my son ... 19 years old ... in a small house in Guelph ... my son had some very difficult experiences a few months earlier. I had been unemployed for about 3 months prior to my visit to the Homewooda short but intense relationship had terminated weeks before.I had recently quit smoking and was taking zyban to help with the withdrawl symptons.

I decided to drop in and ask for help. A few hours later I was "signed in" ... by "signed in" I mean if I left the place I would be arrested and brought back. The doctor who made the diagnosis obviously figured I was a threat to myself or others. A very scary moment ... I was headed for the padded cell and the mind altering drugs program!Soon after I learned of my "signed in" status I started to regain my "sanity" ... maybe the shock of being in such a perilous situation triggered a return to sanity ... who knows. Around the same time I asked my sister ... at some point her and her husband had come to the Homewood to see what was going on. I asked my sister to go call my lawyer ... not really "my" lawyer ... more on this later.I asked my sister to call my lawyer because this particular lawyer had a legal document signed by me giving her responsibility for my affairs should I be declared incapable/insane. How did this come about? About 6 months earlier I had made a trip to Israel. Before this particular trip ... incidentally not my first trip to Israel ... I decided I should get a Power of Attorney ... suppose I was thinking it would be helpful in the event I didn't return from Israel ... no idea where this temporary fear/paranoia came from. At the time I had no lawyer ... decided to approach the company's lawyer ... at that time I worked for a small accounting firm in Guelph. While making arrangements for this Power of Attorney the lawyer asked me if I wanted a second legal document ... a document that could be used in the event of mental incapacity to handle my affairs ... insanity I suppose. Seemed weird to me at that particular moment ... but I agreed and appointed her ... the lawyer ... as my representative. Begs the question ... was this lawyer trying to increase her billing ... or was she unconsciously prescient?Back to the Homewood event ... the doctor came back into the room and I asked him his name. He said my name is Doctor Kennedy. Oh! I replied ... any relation to Diane Kennedy? He replied ... "She's my wife."Guess who held this legal document ... "in the event of insanity document"? ... Diane Kennedy the doctor's wife. What are the odds eh!I'm guessing Diane Kennedy called her husband to find out what was going on ... there was some private conversation between the doctor and my sister.Eventually I was released in my sister's custody with an agreement that I would visit a certain psychiatrist until the doctor was satisfied I was OK.I started a new job a few days later ... at the time of the Homewood experience I had no job prospects.The psychiatrist turned out to be a big help ... felt I was interviewing him more than the other way around. I learned ... at least I understood him to say at some point in our discussions ... and I may well have misunderstood him ... that in some cases somewhat experimental drugs are used because they seem to help some people ... yikes! I also learned that this particular psychiatrist who handled some of the most challenging cases believed some types of mental disorders have a spiritual component ... which of course psychiatry can't understand or treat.My Homewood experience may all correctly be chalked up to a convergence of stressful factors. Who knows eh!OTH ... if not ... who/what was my tether? Certainly my sister was helpful but she played no part in arranging for the legal documents 6 months earlier.Four months later I went on my first long walk ... about 1,400 kms.

PS No subsequent visits to psychologists, psychiatrists, priests or anyone. Never felt the need for help again. Maybe I developed a morbid fear of asking for help after the Homewood experience.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Since I have not adopted Your format, style , or objectives , as I promised I would, could You feed back Your opinion , whether free associative of traditional format should be used, further on, if, we get there?

I'm most comfortable with a fluid approach ... no boundaries ... no rules.

Paraphrasing your post ...

Human life embodies a spectrum of color ... black to white and countless shades of gray in between. For me, how does one traverse this spectrum? Is it always via conscious/intentional decisions/actions.

Let me share a personal experience:

It happened in February 2000.I woke up one morning and for some reason figured I should try to get help ... this was one of those occasions where I went to seek help for my mis-fitness. I was living in Guelph at the time and Guelph is home to the Homewood Health Centre ... One of the largest mental health and addiction facilities in the country offering programs that are specialized, unique, and national in scope.Background data:

I was living with my son ... 19 years old ... in a small house in Guelph ... my son had some very difficult experiences a few months earlier. I had been unemployed for about 3 months prior to my visit to the Homewooda short but intense relationship had terminated weeks before.I had recently quit smoking and was taking zyban to help with the withdrawl symptons.

I decided to drop in and ask for help. A few hours later I was "signed in" ... by "signed in" I mean if I left the place I would be arrested and brought back. The doctor who made the diagnosis obviously figured I was a threat to myself or others. A very scary moment ... I was headed for the padded cell and the mind altering drugs program!Soon after I learned of my "signed in" status I started to regain my "sanity" ... maybe the shock of being in such a perilous situation triggered a return to sanity ... who knows. Around the same time I asked my sister ... at some point her and her husband had come to the Homewood to see what was going on. I asked my sister to go call my lawyer ... not really "my" lawyer ... more on this later.I asked my sister to call my lawyer because this particular lawyer had a legal document signed by me giving her responsibility for my affairs should I be declared incapable/insane. How did this come about? About 6 months earlier I had made a trip to Israel. Before this particular trip ... incidentally not my first trip to Israel ... I decided I should get a Power of Attorney ... suppose I was thinking it would be helpful in the event I didn't return from Israel ... no idea where this temporary fear/paranoia came from. At the time I had no lawyer ... decided to approach the company's lawyer ... at that time I worked for a small accounting firm in Guelph. While making arrangements for this Power of Attorney the lawyer asked me if I wanted a second legal document ... a document that could be used in the event of mental incapacity to handle my affairs ... insanity I suppose. Seemed weird to me at that particular moment ... but I agreed and appointed her ... the lawyer ... as my representative. Begs the question ... was this lawyer trying to increase her billing ... or was she unconsciously prescient?Back to the Homewood event ... the doctor came back into the room and I asked him his name. He said my name is Doctor Kennedy. Oh! I replied ... any relation to Diane Kennedy? He replied ... "She's my wife."Guess who held this legal document ... "in the event of insanity document"? ... Diane Kennedy the doctor's wife. What are the odds eh!I'm guessing Diane Kennedy called her husband to find out what was going on ... there was some private conversation between the doctor and my sister.Eventually I was released in my sister's custody with an agreement that I would visit a certain psychiatrist until the doctor was satisfied I was OK.I started a new job a few days later ... at the time of the Homewood experience I had no job prospects.The psychiatrist turned out to be a big help ... felt I was interviewing him more than the other way around. I learned ... at least I understood him to say at some point in our discussions ... and I may well have misunderstood him ... that in some cases somewhat experimental drugs are used because they seem to help some people ... yikes! I also learned that this particular psychiatrist who handled some of the most challenging cases believed some types of mental disorders have a spiritual component ... which of course psychiatry can't understand or treat.My Homewood experience may all correctly be chalked up to a convergence of stressful factors. Who knows eh!OTH ... if not ... who/what was my tether? Certainly my sister was helpful but she played no part in arranging for the legal documents 6 months earlier.Four months later I went on my first long walk ... about 1,400 kms.

PS No subsequent visits to psychologists, psychiatrists, priests or anyone. Never felt the need for help again. Maybe I developed a morbid fear of asking for help after the Homewood experience.

I did the conversion: 1400 km is 850 miles. The nearest I ever came to that is 23.5 miles marathon run 5 times with 3 of my kids. And that was a run decreasing toward the middle to a slow run-fast walk, and toward the end a slow walk.

The convergence of forces is an interesting experience, but I can relate to it to times when things are closing in This never closes the thing, the vital force that Betgson thinks in terms somewhat You are talking about.

Your experience sounds like a desperate attempt to break free of that constraint, of compression, we all feel at times, relatively speaking.

My compression is, as I have described elsewhere here, is more like being compressed under the depths of a body of water, not actually, but panpsychically , where it does feel like the approach of some limiting force. I often wondered, like the above so named Peter, whose preoccupation with what's it like to come to the end of , in Your case the end of an unbelievable astounding long walk, What will be like to consciously experience of reaching the end then trying to think about crossing over. Will it be like when trying to hold one's breath, and reach the limit before the knowledge of the real thing, the bursting happens?

Unconsciousness I heard comes as a blessing then with the terror of trying to stay awake at the end and crossing over.

That kind of fear can motivate the doing of heretofore incredible feats.

When ones child is trapped under a car pressing on his longs, it has been documented, the parent can generate incredible strength and lift the 3 ton vehicle and free the loved one pinned underneath.

I am in a similar situation now, not too much different from Peter's experience and I wonder how my limits will force me to do something extreme.

Since I have not adopted Your format, style , or objectives , as I promised I would, could You feed back Your opinion , whether free associative of traditional format should be used, further on, if, we get there?

I'm most comfortable with a fluid approach ... no boundaries ... no rules.

Paraphrasing your post ...

Human life embodies a spectrum of color ... black to white and countless shades of gray in between. For me, how does one traverse this spectrum? Is it always via conscious/intentional decisions/actions.

Let me share a personal experience:

It happened in February 2000.I woke up one morning and for some reason figured I should try to get help ... this was one of those occasions where I went to seek help for my mis-fitness. I was living in Guelph at the time and Guelph is home to the Homewood Health Centre ... One of the largest mental health and addiction facilities in the country offering programs that are specialized, unique, and national in scope.Background data:

I was living with my son ... 19 years old ... in a small house in Guelph ... my son had some very difficult experiences a few months earlier. I had been unemployed for about 3 months prior to my visit to the Homewooda short but intense relationship had terminated weeks before.I had recently quit smoking and was taking zyban to help with the withdrawl symptons.

I decided to drop in and ask for help. A few hours later I was "signed in" ... by "signed in" I mean if I left the place I would be arrested and brought back. The doctor who made the diagnosis obviously figured I was a threat to myself or others. A very scary moment ... I was headed for the padded cell and the mind altering drugs program!Soon after I learned of my "signed in" status I started to regain my "sanity" ... maybe the shock of being in such a perilous situation triggered a return to sanity ... who knows. Around the same time I asked my sister ... at some point her and her husband had come to the Homewood to see what was going on. I asked my sister to go call my lawyer ... not really "my" lawyer ... more on this later.I asked my sister to call my lawyer because this particular lawyer had a legal document signed by me giving her responsibility for my affairs should I be declared incapable/insane. How did this come about? About 6 months earlier I had made a trip to Israel. Before this particular trip ... incidentally not my first trip to Israel ... I decided I should get a Power of Attorney ... suppose I was thinking it would be helpful in the event I didn't return from Israel ... no idea where this temporary fear/paranoia came from. At the time I had no lawyer ... decided to approach the company's lawyer ... at that time I worked for a small accounting firm in Guelph. While making arrangements for this Power of Attorney the lawyer asked me if I wanted a second legal document ... a document that could be used in the event of mental incapacity to handle my affairs ... insanity I suppose. Seemed weird to me at that particular moment ... but I agreed and appointed her ... the lawyer ... as my representative. Begs the question ... was this lawyer trying to increase her billing ... or was she unconsciously prescient?Back to the Homewood event ... the doctor came back into the room and I asked him his name. He said my name is Doctor Kennedy. Oh! I replied ... any relation to Diane Kennedy? He replied ... "She's my wife."Guess who held this legal document ... "in the event of insanity document"? ... Diane Kennedy the doctor's wife. What are the odds eh!I'm guessing Diane Kennedy called her husband to find out what was going on ... there was some private conversation between the doctor and my sister.Eventually I was released in my sister's custody with an agreement that I would visit a certain psychiatrist until the doctor was satisfied I was OK.I started a new job a few days later ... at the time of the Homewood experience I had no job prospects.The psychiatrist turned out to be a big help ... felt I was interviewing him more than the other way around. I learned ... at least I understood him to say at some point in our discussions ... and I may well have misunderstood him ... that in some cases somewhat experimental drugs are used because they seem to help some people ... yikes! I also learned that this particular psychiatrist who handled some of the most challenging cases believed some types of mental disorders have a spiritual component ... which of course psychiatry can't understand or treat.My Homewood experience may all correctly be chalked up to a convergence of stressful factors. Who knows eh!OTH ... if not ... who/what was my tether? Certainly my sister was helpful but she played no part in arranging for the legal documents 6 months earlier.Four months later I went on my first long walk ... about 1,400 kms.

PS No subsequent visits to psychologists, psychiatrists, priests or anyone. Never felt the need for help again. Maybe I developed a morbid fear of asking for help after the Homewood experience.

But back to Your anecdote:

Under duressit seems You probably lost connective ties as to who talked to whom, and seeing it only in its final destination, the doctors wife, you started to think magically, imputing some serious underhanded attempt to commit you and subject you to who knows what kind of medical experiment: in sum, lack of facts about a series of events made you prone to paranoiac thoughts , because you only saw althe beginning and end of the route the document took. Might as well thought that its arrival heralded in a new and mysterious age, for which you were responsible. But that would have been too much even for Your very suspicious state of mind.

I went on three more long walks after the one I mentioned in my last post ... logged more than 4,000 kms in total ... 2000-2004. Our e-exchanges gave rise to the thought my long walks were like experimenting with mind altering drugs ... as you mentioned ... I was looking for an escape.

Who's Betgson? ... Bergson?

Your experience sounds like a desperate attempt to break free of that constraint, of compression, we all feel at times, relatively speaking.

Yep

I label the 'constraint' ... conformity. I just read an eloquent description of the notion 'conformity' ... can't remember where ... dementia is setting in.

The author said something to the effect social/cultural conformity puts a straight jacket ... ergo ... imprisons ... the creative individual. I can see the relevance with artistic people ... music, art, literature and so on. None of these artistic types fit me I'm simply a "misfit" ... never liked conformity ... don't know why ... pretended to be OK with it for about 43 years.

In my case ... it seems the compression you refer to never achieved explosion status ... seems I always had a vent of sorts.

My personal metaphor ... the equivalent of your "under depths of a body of water" ... is a rope bridge. Some notes from many years ago ...

seems to me that I started out on this 'rope bridge' 10 years ago ... many times since I have stopped ... looked back ... maybe even went back several times ... but for some strange reason I must keep going forward ... 'ultreya'. When you get out near the middle of the 'rope bridge' and it starts to sway back and forth and the wind picks up and you stare at the bottom less black pit of a chasm beneath you ... it's scary and all you want to do is get on your hands and knees for more security and crawl back ... seems even when you do this ... start to crawl back and feel a bit more secure about the world you know vs. the world you know nothing about. So I am crawling back to safe ground ... the city of man ... after some time ...never the same lapse of time ... something happens inside and I abruptly get back on my feet and start making my way across the bridge again. Somehow being able to handle the fear and the loneliness ... yup! This 'bridge' is a single lane rope bridge ... one way traffic only! I remember sharing with several people I meet and spend a little time with who seem interested in climbing onto the rope bridge and having a 'go' at crossing the chasm. In all cases they either went back or 'froze' still at some point.

Now for some speculation.

I really like your introduction of the word "compression". In our mechanical world we easily observe the tremendous power of carefully managed compression. We also easily observe the tremendous destructive force when improperly managed.

Maybe the same principles apply for humans. We're given "compression" for a purpose ... to expand our power as individuals so to speak. Some individuals seem to master the management of "compression" and make great contributions to humanity ... others ... well you know the story.

Thoughts?

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Under duressit seems You probably lost connective ties as to who talked to whom, and seeing it only in its final destination, the doctors wife, you started to think magically, imputing some serious underhanded attempt to commit you and subject you to who knows what kind of medical experiment: in sum, lack of facts about a series of events made you prone to paranoiac thoughts , because you only saw althe beginning and end of the route the document took. Might as well thought that its arrival heralded in a new and mysterious age, for which you were responsible. But that would have been too much even for Your very suspicious state of mind.

A valid perspective.

Steve Job provided an alternative perspective in his 2005 speech:

“You can’t connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something — your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach has never let me down, and it has made all the difference in my life.”~ Steve Jobs

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Under duressit seems You probably lost connective ties as to who talked to whom, and seeing it only in its final destination, the doctors wife, you started to think magically, imputing some serious underhanded attempt to commit you and subject you to who knows what kind of medical experiment: in sum, lack of facts about a series of events made you prone to paranoiac thoughts , because you only saw althe beginning and end of the route the document took. Might as well thought that its arrival heralded in a new and mysterious age, for which you were responsible. But that would have been too much even for Your very suspicious state of mind.

A valid perspective.

Steve Job provided an alternative perspective in his 2005 speech:

“You can’t connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something — your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach has never let me down, and it has made all the difference in my life.”~ Steve Jobs

So what then trust, maybe a version of whatever you hang your coat on won't fall out of the wall. Jobs was right, and by the same token, You can't undo that, whatever was done to Your son.

Something learned, then re-learned, may stick much better then the first time, so to try to get undone, will need much more than a simple removal. There would need piece by piece removal, and that would need much more certainty then try to find what to unhook. After all, key elements are indistinguishable from those which are simply supported by those that are the supported ones.

There may be a melt down , not unlike virtual versions of psycho surgery.

The known are no problem, but the unknown's? The only way to deal with even filling the dots I'd pragmatically , and no one in their minds would want to try using hit and miss approximations.

An approximate certainty is better then an absolute uncertainty. But it takes the later to fuse the former.

But the later is an unkind parent , its the censor intoletate of his offspring, because to him there is no higher power, except the org.(not Hubbard et.al.) but the Great Organizer in the Sky, and he knows Him through , and In Him , himself is all he's got , the ultimate responsibility and subsequent guilt all fathers have.

And that guarantee is not merely psychological , but infused to gather, more, for reasons not nearly unbecoming.

Try not to decode these, only through a general drift relating to sons in general mine and perhaps yours, for some can not be.

Laing's knots, hooks up the ante, so much more , that hoping that unknotting them will simply eliminate its implications, far more uncertain as merely a pipe dream. The missed variable intangibles missed may be far more numerous and significant then thought at first..It really may turn out as a fool's bet.

Last edited by Meno_ on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Now the above is a hit and miss dribble and I was going to take it out but left it as it is so that it may serve as some kind of catalyst /connecting link to an allegory I was going to make up, not unlike to the one You posed a few blogs back.

But all this may take toll and strain, so set the pace and tone, if it can go on to an as yet undetermined limit, because even now background noise can be heard if you listen to it carefully.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

No boundaries ... no rules ... though common courtesy compels me to share my thoughts ... triggered by your posts.

1) Your first post ... Agreed ... there are more variables than we can count. I see two alternatives: a) Throw our hands in the air and declare hopelessness. b) Gird our loins and "ultreya" ... Spanish for "keep going."

Another personal anecdote describing how the word "ultreya" entered my personal vocabulary ... retrieved from some old notes.

Part I

It happened during my first Camino in June 2000 ... my second day of walking in Spain … after walking a week or so in France.. It's important to remember that I have no itinerary and almost no information about the Camino Santiago. I met a man in Jaca ... where I arrived on my first day in Spain. He was like an 'angel' ... he shared his meal and some wine with me ... he left me the Spanish word 'ultreya' ... he helped me find some medicine for my blisters ... and finally he showed me a pamphlet in Spanish that would lead me to where I would stay the next night.

Part II

His name was Brother Joe of Holy Cross Family Ministries http:/www.hcfm.org"... at the time he was living in Los Angeles and he was vacationing in Spain ... he would move to a town near Boston a few years later. First a few words about the word "Ultreya" and it's connection to Brother Joe. The word 'Ultreya' has become one of my mantras ... I have three ... 1) Ultreya ... keep going 2) Morning has Broken ... a new day has dawned and the City of God is just around the corner. 3) Seek comfort in nothingness

My 'angel' in Jaca introduced the word 'Ultreya' to me ... I would see the same word painted on stones ... written on bulletin boards at Refugios etc all along the Camino Santiago. Several times I asked some Spanish people who spoke English what the word meant. I had the feeling this word was important. It wasn't until a couple of years later that I would learn the meaning of the word ... in ... near Boston. I was visiting Brother Joe and one of his fellow Brothers explained to me that it basically means ... "keep going ... don't give up". Oh ... how appropriate eh!! At the same time Psalm 139 would be firmly planted in my memory ... the same Brother who explained the meaning of ultreya sang his version of the Psalm at a prayer meeting. Psalm 139 deals with the notion of predestination. All of this thanks to Brother Joe. Hmmm!

2) Your second post ... spontaneous (un)censored comments are the best ... a manifestation of the "get naked" prerequisite for meaningful dialogue.

3) Your 3rd post ... to enter here one must be willing to 'get naked' ... hang out some personal dirty laundry for public view. Easy enough for the insane ... terribly difficult for sane people.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

One thing I must so is to help paraphrase in the square as You are doing doing. Will go to T Mobile tomorrow to find out how to do that. Now to the first comment I am excited and reluctant at the same time, because in deed we are moving forward.and it seems to me in not am illusion. Your comments are both worth while and exhilarating.

Now I may be crazy, but I am not insane, and there is a distinction and I can't really say wether I can as of yet decide to get naked or stay dressed for I wpuos not want to go from crazy to truly crazy or insane So what will happen when we I, get to a point where a decision has to be made in this regard?

We are talking boundaries here and You Yourself drew around when pushed to the inquiry about Your son.I too have such a limitation , and its that some things are so personal as to make them almost taboo. Other things such as employee relates confidentiality , comtractual, signed or understood, and others such as clearances bar trespass or go to jail. This jail is as yet virtual nut upon pass go you do not collect 200 dollars.

Dribble at times dribble. Another thing : by posting personal stuff , and that can not be avoided, we are game to such purveyors of objectivity who expressly state that its not good form to shed too much biography , especially the bad kind, for it invariably create a sense of self victimization for any and all to gawk and chatter about.

You are obviously implying organization and spelling difficulties on my part, but got to go its almost 11 pm and my wife is demanding attention

By for now. You are probably Eastern Standard Time and most likely shut eye

Now I may be crazy, but I am not insane, and there is a distinction and I can't really say wether I can as of yet decide to get naked or stay dressed for I wpuos not want to go from crazy to truly crazy or insane

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Augustine.

”Woe to you, torrent of human custom! Who can stand against you?” St Augustine 354-430

Individuals who overtly challenge the prevailing "torrent of human custom" are labelled crazy or insane. It must be so or the "torrent of human custom" wouldn't survive. OTH throughout history many individuals during their lifetime were labelled crazy or insane and a century or so later their legacy morphs into genius/hero. Crazy/insane individuals are a necessary component of human evolution.

"So what will happen when we I, get to a point where a decision has to be made in this regard?"

We have both already crossed this bridge several times ... seems to me the unconscious mind is trustworthy ... no need to bother our conscious mind with such a trivial matter.

We are talking boundaries here and You Yourself drew around when pushed to the inquiry about Your son.

A great example of what I just wrote. After reading your above sentence my first thought ... "What's he talking about?" Then I went looking for some reference to your statement. I had to scan the entire thread three times before I found it ... and there it was ... clear as day ... in black and white. What a monstrosity! The unconscious mind really is the elephant ... the rider ... our conscious mind ... is the fool that thinks he/she can make the elephant go where ever we want it to go.

My conscious mind is now ready to respond to your question concerning my son ... suppose it now has the approval of my unconscious mind.

1) It would be unkind to hang out my son's dirty laundry without his permission. OTH public information is OK.

2) Regarding the experience I mentioned ... the internet was the enabler though there were so many other factors ... many of which I'm not even aware of.

3) Kevin recovered from the experience ... went on to get married ... fathered a daughter ... got divorced ... fathered a second daughter in a second relationship ... changed his family name and cut me off from all communications about 10 years ago. Kevin obviously chooses to deal with his "compression" in his own way ... not unlike his father.

"we are game to such purveyors of objectivity who expressly state that its not good form to shed too much biography , especially the bad kind, for it invariably create a sense of self victimization for any and all to gawk and chatter about."

Thinking and caring about what other people will say or do is a two edged sword. While it promotes conformity it also stifles freedom and creativity.

"You are obviously implying organization and spelling difficulties on my part, but got to go its almost 11 pm and my wife is demanding attention"

Let me be direct ... I have fewer distractions, more leisure time and the subject we are discussing is ... and has been for almost 25 years now ... the most important thing in my life.

By for now. You are probably Eastern Standard Time and most likely shut eye

Apparently we have a 16 hour difference in time zone ... probably explains why I'm running out in front.

"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Seems like, as it should this thread is burrowing deeper on a far faster pace . Probably as it should, where the 'should' is more ties to the unconscious them the intended , more linear approximation. So something may be amiss with the quantified precept of acquiring knowledge of the kind we are talking about. And I think I can give an answer to that, it is like a fishing expedition to the neural connectors between the conscious and the unconscious.

That area of the brain is struggling right now, the grey area between them is hard pressed to resolve the issue which way, what of , where from, where to, to whom-well that's You, and more ifs and but's that come from seemingly nowhere

Bit to give justice to Your blog, ill need to digest it and can not answer until at least until tonight.