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Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

The Dolphins situation is kind of the clash of old school football ideals vs new school ideology. Incognito is a racist by his words, and says and does some bad stuff, but mostly has the support of his teammates big time over Martin. Martin is viewed as a quitter and a guy that couldn't handle the NFL.

The small amount of evidence and the media view Incognito as a horrible monster racist, and Martin as a poor innocent victim, but I feel (especially in football) you have to get angry and pissed off at some point, and have to eventually (if it is true), stop taking the **** that is being thrown at you. Was Martin so sheltered his entire life that he never dealt with this before, who knows.

I think there are tons of people jumping to a conclusion way before all the facts are out. It seems from evidence that Incognito is not a nice person according to words alone and his prior league stuff in St Louis, I don't deny that. I just think Martin needed to stand up for himself, (if he did and nothing changed, that's a different matter) besides up and leaving.

"It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

The Dolphins situation is kind of the clash of old school football ideals vs new school ideology. Incognito is a racist by his words, and says and does some bad stuff, but mostly has the support of his teammates big time over Martin. Martin is viewed as a quitter and a guy that couldn't handle the NFL.

The small amount of evidence and the media view Incognito as a horrible monster racist, and Martin as a poor innocent victim, but I feel (especially in football) you have to get angry and pissed off at some point, and have to eventually (if it is true), stop taking the **** that is being thrown at you. Was Martin so sheltered his entire life that he never dealt with this before, who knows.

I think there are tons of people jumping to a conclusion way before all the facts are out. It seems from evidence that Incognito is not a nice person according to words alone and his prior league stuff in St Louis, I don't deny that. I just think Martin needed to stand up for himself, (if he did and nothing changed, that's a different matter) besides up and leaving.

No offense, but its funny you say people are jumping to conclysions then you jump to a conclusion.

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Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

No worries Travmil, I was gonna post the same reply to Heisenberg for his post that mentions Martin reminds him of Pitcock.

_____

Serious question. Does anyone from Miami (GM, coaches, etc) get fired before the season is over? Or does this have to get bigger for that to happen?

______

Can I ask kind of a stupid question. What in the hell is a "leadership council"? Perhaps I am just young/really green, but I have heard of team captains, even co-captains, but never a "leadership council"

Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

What conclusion is he jumping to? That Incognito is not a nice person? You do know that Jonathan Martin has a voice mail from Incognito calling him a ****** right?

[edit]Nevermind, I see what you were saying I read the original post wrong. I'm leaving my post though in case anyone hasn't heard the latest.[/edit]

Just in case anyone really has not seen it

Multiple sources confirmed to ESPN that the following is a transcript of a voice message Incognito left for Martin in April 2013, a year after Martin was drafted:"Hey, wassup, you half n----- piece of s---. I saw you on Twitter, you been training 10 weeks. [I want to] s--- in your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your f---ing mouth. [I'm going to] slap your real mother across the face [laughter]. F--- you, you're still a rookie. I'll kill you."

Sources tell ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter that officials from both the NFL and the Dolphins have heard the tape and have copies of the message.

Sources familiar with the tapes say these are terms Incognito used over time and were not isolated incidents, including the use of the racial epithet multiple times.
Sources also say Martin received a series of texts that included derogatory terms referring to the female anatomy and sexual orientation.

Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

New York Giants safety Antrel Rolle apparently is among those who blame Jonathan Martin, at least in part, for the incidents that led to the offensive lineman leaving the Miami Dolphins.
Speaking on his weekly WFAN radio appearance in New York on Tuesday, Rolle made it clear that he believed Richie Incognito, who has been suspended indefinitely for conduct detrimental to the team, to be in the wrong for his alleged harassment of Martin.
But Rolle also indicated a belief that Martin could have done more to prevent himself from being bullied.
"Was Richie Incognito wrong? Absolutely," Rolle told the radio station. "But I think the other guy is just as much to blame as Richie, because he allowed it to happen.
"At this level, you're a man. You're not a little boy. You're not a freshman in college. You're a man."Multiple sources confirmed to ESPN on Monday that Incognito used racial epithets and profane language toward Martin on multiple occasions.
Sources also say Martin received a series of voice mail messages and texts that included derogatory terms referring to the female anatomy and sexual orientation.
The NFL is investigating the situation while Incognito is suspended and Martin takes a leave of absence. But there is some sense in NFL player circles that locker rooms should be self-policed, and Rolle's sentiments echo that.
"I think everything has its limits," Rolle said. "So there's no way that another man is going to make me pay for something that I choose not to pay for.
"So, Richie Incognito, is he wrong? Absolutely. But I think the other guy is just as much to blame. Hopefully he's able to bounce back and recover from all that has happened and take awareness of, you know, man, you're a grown-*** man. You need to stand up for yourself. Hazing is one thing. Bullying is another."

Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

There needs to be immediate and widespread backlash against anyone spouting the kind of non-sense Rolle spouts here.

Really?

I am normally one to say "lets not blame the victim" but I actually kind of agree with him.

Dont get me wrong. Bullying is wrong. But even as a freshman (track, so not a big sport) I had freshman ****up day (all freshman in the school got messed with) then for track I had to bring donuts to film sessions and if I would have actually made any of the road trips I am sure I would have been forced to carry bags/do the grunt work (which I ended up doing a lot my sophomore year).

I think the diffrence, however, is one is playfu and a right of passage. We hate getting hazed, and I hesitate to use that word because I did not consider buying donuts for the team hazing.

Now, 15K for a trip I dont go on? Thats nuts. I get not wanting to have conflict, but I kind of agree with Rolle. Thats not hazing, that harassment, esp. with all those calls and texts. I know that hindsight is 20/20, but I would have seriously laughed in someones face (esp if I make 300K and after taxes/agent that prob only 150)

After all that rambling, I guess I kind of see what Rolle is saying. You are a grown man. Speak up (even if that means going to the coaches/your teammates vice fighting dude in a parking lot)

Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

When Armando Salguero of the Miami Heraldvisited PFT Live on Tuesday and we discussed the possibility that Dolphins guard Richie Incognito’s treatment of tackle Jonathan Martin came at the behest of a coaching staffhoping to make Martin tougher, Salguero predicted that, if that ends up being the case, a lot of people will be fired.A lot of people apparently will be fired.According to Omar Kelly of the South Florida Sun-Sentinel, Dolphins coaches asked Incognito “to toughen up” Martin after he missed a voluntary workout during the 2013 offseason. Kelly cites “at least two” unnamed sources.Per the unnamed sources, Incognito may have taken his orders too far. Specifically, the sources tell Kelly that the racially-charged voice message from Incognito to Martin came after skipped two days of the team’s voluntary OTA program.“Incognito was encouraged by his coaches to make a call that would ‘get [Martin] into the fold,’” Kelly reports.Regardless of whether Incognito took his orders too far, those who gave the orders will be facing serious consequences, if the report is accurate. Management-level employees can’t pull the rip cord on a reputed nut job and then throw their hands in the air and say “that was an overreaction” when the local enforcer is overly zealous with his methods of enforcement.Apart from the fact that the report suggests a violation of the rules regarding voluntary workouts, the report indicates that the coaches set in motion the events that resulted in Martin leaving the team due to ongoing harassment by Incognito. Even though Kelly’s report focuses specifically on communications occurring in the offseason, it’s quite possible that the effort to toughen up Martin was as extensive as the cinematic effort to “train” PFC William Santiago.To summarize, one of the biggest messes in recent years is about to get a lot messier. And if Kelly’s report is accurate, more people than Incognito will soon be former employees of the Dolphins

If this is true, this is going have serious repercussions. You just can't do that

Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

I was going to delete my post as I feel parts of it are not sort of what I meant to say, but I can't really take it back.

I'll just say; Incognito is crazy as **** and now really reading a lot of the stuff around, you can't really fight a guy like that, he'll just keep coming back at you forever.

Martin is in a no-win situation really, and he took the way that exposed this clown for who he was, and possibly the Dolphins as well, while probably ruining his own career. A guy that can take happiness over money I can respect, he just is probably now realizing that he's dealing with decades of football/locker room history that needs to be changed for 2013.

"It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

So, Martin starts dealing with this guy, probably tells him to cool it. When that doesn't work, he goes to his coaches......who ordered the guy to treat him that way. When he gets no traction there what's his last option? There's not a single person anywhere saying he should have stood up for himself that would tolerate being treated like that. Not one. They should all shut the hell up.

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Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

My stance on it all:

So... as crazy as this sounds, and I'm not saying I agree with this, but trying to understand it.... I think the basis of hazing/initiating is the "ends justify the means". The means would be poor treatment. The ends would be a tougher individual and closer relationship (once everyone makes up).

That said... if what you're trying for is a tougher individual... and a tighter relationship, there's much better ways to go about it. There are "leaders" out there who motivate by fear... and others by respect. People work their hardest alongside you and for you when they respect you and like you and have a true desire to be the best they can be. People will not work as hard for you when they fear you... they'll just work as hard as necessary to appease you, but not necessarily their hardest.

There are ways to convey/instill toughness in someone without beating the crap out of them. If I had to guess... and from what I'm hearing... Incognito was tasked with toughening up Martin. The problem was the method he chose to enact it.

In no normal working situation does anyone have to accept that kind of treatment. I know that the NFL is no normal working situation. But still... if one of my co-workers tried taht ******** with me, there would be the following process:

1) Take it... in a very limited manner. Sometimes people have a bad day. I will remember it and monitor you though to see if you continue it.
2) Once it went past my rather low threshold, I'd have a discussion with them, telling them it's not something I approve of and it's not to continue.
3) If no change, take it to superiors.
4) if no change, walk away. Better I walk away and let it go than stay there and do something that I can't foresee, but like any grown male, there are limits before you just pop.

Getting into a physical altercation is just stupid. It's not an option. It's nothing to do with manliness, it's just stupidity. I don't really have a problem with the way Martin went about it. Some may view it as not being strong; I look at it as "I don't really have to deal with this **** from a dipstick like yourself, and I'm gonna walk away before you really **** me off." Incognito, on the other hand, just sounds like he's an idiot. No grown man conducts himself like that. You make a ton of money to be a professional. You cannot even tell me that voicemail is an example of professionalism.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 11-06-2013 at 12:32 PM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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Re: 2013 non-Colts thread

That's not the way to toughen somebody up. That's the way to tear them down. I mean.....even insulting his mother.....please. Some guys just by their personality can't just let comments and actions like these just bounce right off. They carry it around with them and it ultimately affects their self worth. Some people are just more sensitive than others. Doesn't matter what size they are.