A friend of mine was advising that I should do this. He learned it on a 3-day retreat. I found that Namkhai Norbu offers a text on this practice, but the explanation is a little confusing to me. I am not sure if I need more than the general transmission in order to practice it.

So, I'm just wondering if I have permission to do Namkhai Norbu's "Vajra Armor" text/practice or if I need something more.

I looked at the list of lungs Namkhai Norbu read on the last day of retreat and I see that I wrote down "Protection Mantra - may be activated by 3-day retreat." I did not write down "Vajra Armor" anywhere, but that does not mean Namkhai Norbu didn't say that's what it was. I was struggling to hear what I was receiving and writing down as fast as possible.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

I don't think he uses the words "vajra armor", more likely he said "dorjei kotrab". He often gives this mantra and it's the only one that needs at least a three day personal retreat to activate, so you probably did receive the lung for it. And in this case you do need just the lung for it (not sure if that's what you meant with "general transmission" though). There is another more elaborate vajra armor practice by Lama Dawa though and that needs also empowerment if I remember right.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

Presumably this is the same thing I received lung for which I wrote down as "protection mantra - can activate with 3-day retreat" and he probably chose to call it "dorjei kotrab" at the time which is why I didn't write it down, since I probably had no idea what he just said or how to spell it.

So, this 3-day retreat is something you can do on your own? (I suppose it doesn't actually matter at the moment because I can not actually DO a 3-day retreat. Impossible for me.)

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

padma norbu wrote:A friend of mine was advising that I should do this. He learned it on a 3-day retreat. I found that Namkhai Norbu offers a text on this practice, but the explanation is a little confusing to me. I am not sure if I need more than the general transmission in order to practice it.

So, I'm just wondering if I have permission to do Namkhai Norbu's "Vajra Armor" text/practice or if I need something more.

I looked at the list of lungs Namkhai Norbu read on the last day of retreat and I see that I wrote down "Protection Mantra - may be activated by 3-day retreat." I did not write down "Vajra Armor" anywhere, but that does not mean Namkhai Norbu didn't say that's what it was. I was struggling to hear what I was receiving and writing down as fast as possible.

Presumably this is the same thing I received lung for which I wrote down as "protection mantra - can activate with 3-day retreat" and he probably chose to call it "dorjei kotrab" at the time which is why I didn't write it down, since I probably had no idea what he just said or how to spell it.

Dorjei kotrab = Vajra Armor.

So, this 3-day retreat is something you can do on your own? (I suppose it doesn't actually matter at the moment because I can not actually DO a 3-day retreat. Impossible for me.)

Uhm well yes, how else would you do it hehe? I think how to do this practice is explained well enough in the book, been a while since I've read though.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

So, this 3-day retreat is something you can do on your own? (I suppose it doesn't actually matter at the moment because I can not actually DO a 3-day retreat. Impossible for me.)

Uhm well yes, how else would you do it hehe?

How else you would do it:On a 3-day retreat with a teacher who gives lung and explains the practice. Often at 3-day retreats, something important is taught which you can't learn from a book. Google shows that Vajra Armor is generally learned AT a 3-day retreat with a lama.

And, like I said, I don't know if the lung I received for "protection mantra which can be activated with 3-day retreat" is Dorjei kotrab / Vajra Armor. The book description says transmission is necessary; whether that means general transmission or transmission of lung is what I was wondering.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

So, this 3-day retreat is something you can do on your own? (I suppose it doesn't actually matter at the moment because I can not actually DO a 3-day retreat. Impossible for me.)

Uhm well yes, how else would you do it hehe?

How else you would do it:On a 3-day retreat with a teacher who gives lung and explains the practice. Often at 3-day retreats, something important is taught which you can't learn from a book. Google shows that Vajra Armor is generally learned AT a 3-day retreat with a lama.

And, like I said, I don't know if the lung I received for "protection mantra which can be activated with 3-day retreat" is Dorjei kotrab / Vajra Armor. The book description says transmission is necessary; whether that means general transmission or transmission of lung is what I was wondering.

You got the transmission. Everything you need is in ChNN book, read it, do the practice. What is your problem?

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

padma norbu wrote:On a 3-day retreat with a teacher who gives lung and explains the practice. Often at 3-day retreats, something important is taught which you can't learn from a book. Google shows that Vajra Armor is generally learned AT a 3-day retreat with a lama.

Those may not necessarily be the same Vajra Armor practice. Here you do it by yourself, for three days, like it says in the book. Even if it's the same practice, I don't know what they're doing for three days. The text is just about the effects of this mantra, how to do the retreat on it and perhaps some extra way of using it, no need for a three day explanation. Unless it's taught at the beginning and then they do the practice for three days, that would make sense.

And, like I said, I don't know if the lung I received for "protection mantra which can be activated with 3-day retreat" is Dorjei kotrab / Vajra Armor. The book description says transmission is necessary; whether that means general transmission or transmission of lung is what I was wondering.

Yes because there is no other mantra activated by a three day retreat given by Rinpoche. Also come to think of it he might call it protection mantra of dorjei kotrab sometimes. What is the general transmission for you? I still don't understand that. You need the lung transmission for the practice in that book. Actually you need lung transmission for almost all mantras. Anyway Rinpoche gives lung transmissions on the last day of retreats, it's just receiving the sound of the mantra. So you have the lung transmission for this practice and can do this practice.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

Pero wrote:What is the general transmission for you? I still don't understand that.

It is common to hear the transmission as you would get at any webcast or retreat the "general transmission." At least, I have heard it multiple times. In contrast, I have heard Namkhai Norbu use the phrase "transmission of lung." So, when the book description says "transmission is required," just not sure exactly what that meant.

Pero wrote:You need the lung transmission for the practice in that book. Actually you need lung transmission for almost all mantras.

That's what I figured, which is why I asked this question.

Pero wrote: Anyway Rinpoche gives lung transmissions on the last day of retreats, it's just receiving the sound of the mantra. So you have the lung transmission for this practice and can do this practice.

Well... how do you or I know that I received this transmission? Does he ALWAYS give lung for this practice? Or is there really just no other "protection mantra to be activated with 3-day retreat" that you can think of?

Actually... you know what? It doesn't matter. I'm not going to do this, it won't make a difference. Nothing does. "Mantras are not magic," right?

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

padma norbu wrote:It is common to hear the transmission as you would get at any webcast or retreat the "general transmission." At least, I have heard it multiple times. In contrast, I have heard Namkhai Norbu use the phrase "transmission of lung." So, when the book description says "transmission is required," just not sure exactly what that meant.

Probably they mean the direct introduction. I think I've use the term in that sense in the past too.

Does he ALWAYS give lung for this practice?

Not sure.

Or is there really just no other "protection mantra to be activated with 3-day retreat" that you can think of?

In the past 5 years I have never heard him give a different protection mantra (and I participated in most webcasts). In fact sometimes he complains that people constantly ask him for mantras for this and that problem and that if they want a mantra this one is sufficient.

I'm not going to do this, it won't make a difference. Nothing does. "Mantras are not magic," right?

You won't know till you try. And that is not a good attitude. If you have no faith, how could any practice work? Try to have a little faith that a practice can actually do what it's supposed to. Or perhaps at the very least be agnostic, it may still work. Thinking practices don't work though, is like shooting yourself in the foot while trying to reach the top of a hill. Depends on what "magic" is to you hehe.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

The answer you seem to not have understood from Namdrol I believe was him saying that yes, the transmission you got in the webcast was the required transmission for Vajra Armor. You are all set. You have it. You can now do it. Go for it. I didn't get to hear the webcast but I trust Namdrol did and knows what he is saying. So you can go ahead and do a three day personal retreat, according to the book.

In the traditional 3-day retreat on this practice though you are not supposed to vocalize anything other than the mantra for the full 3 days and nights, including in your own dreams. For many of us, who do not have full mastery over lucid dream-yoga or the ability to not activate the vocal chords when coughing, sneezing, or banging our toes, etc.. then this retreat alone may prove quite challenging. According to Lama Dawa, this is why it is of great benefit to do the retreat under the auspices of a qualified Lama: because in this context any vocalization that is accidentally made can be confessed in writing to the Lama and then instructions can be given to purify it properly, --which repairs the energy-leakage and keeps the resonating flow of mantra power intact. So while it may be easier and cheaper to simply shutter your windows, turn off the phone and do a home retreat, --there is great benefit in doing it with a lineage master present. Plus, there are also 'tests' done by Lama Dawa that determine the affects of the mantra on your own development at the end!

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

heart wrote:You got the transmission. Everything you need is in ChNN book, read it, do the practice. What is your problem?

/magnus

Oh, I have health problems and just in general a lot of obstacles to contend with.

I understand, still compared with other practices this is very easy to do. No visualization, don't even need to sit properly, just keep doing the mantra. This mantra is particularly good for people with health issues and other obstacles.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

I've received Dorje Gotrab from three different Lamas: ChNNR, Tulku Sang-ngak, and Lama Dawa Chodrak. All three transmissions have been based on Dorje Lingpa's terma and Mipham's commentary. However, each of these three Teachers has taught this practice quite differently.

ChNNR's transmission has been the simplest as has been explained already in this thread. Magnus's last explanation says everything that needs to be said from that POV. I have a long-time Dharma friend who did a three-day retreat based on this transmission and did see some sign of accomplishment. In his case, a ganglion cyst he had had for some time spontaneously remitted. I believe he reported this to Rinpoche Who did say this was a sign of accomplishment.

Tulku Sang-ngak in addition has taught the visualization and short sadhana by Khenpo Ngawang Palzang (a.k.a. Khenpo Ngakchung). Tulku Sang-ngak received this from H.H. Chatral Rinpoche (among others). So immensely great blessings there. When I received this practice from Tulku Sang-ngak I don't remember the idea of the silentthree-day retreat being stressed all that much. It was more as if the practice was being given as a short daily practice. However, given my age and failing memory, I may be completely mistaken about that.

Lama Dawa has received permission from H.H. Dungse Thinley Norbu to teach Dorje Gotrab as a complete path to Enlightenment. This is done through a series of retreats. The retreats are very strict, boundaried, and totally silent (except for the mantra). In fact, even speaking in one's dream is a breach of samaya which must be confessed and amended. At the end of each retreat, one is given a test (related to the various five elements) to see if one has accomplished the mantra at that level. One continues repeating the same level retreat until one manifests the correct result which is an observable change in so-called material reality. Some sadhakas progress faster and others slower. IOW, it may take an individual more or less retreats to accomplish a given level. Later on, the retreats are longer and eventually include yang-ti dark retreats. Between retreats, one must keep the samaya of saying at least one mala of the mantra each day. Of course, one can say more. While health and healing are major focuses of this practice, it obviously goes beyond those aims. These have been some of the most powerful experiences I have had in the Dharma in over more than four decades of practice. The way Lama Dawa teaches this practice, it is very unambiguous. You totally know whether you got it or not and what level you are on.

Although I feel blessed and fortunate to have received this practice from three different Teachers and Their respective lineages, IMHO, Lama Dawa's approach is in a class of its own. I highly, highly recommend it to anyone who would like to accomplish a Vajrayana practice and know that they have accomplished it with all that that implies on outer, inner, secret, and most secret levels.

Typically, Lama Dawa offers Dorje Gotrab retreats each fall and spring. This fall will be the first series of retreats to be held on Rinpoche's land in Iowa. See www.saraswatibhawan.org for more information.

Thanks a lot for that interesting in-depth explanation. Too bad Lama Dawa doesn't go to Europe, I'd be interested in receiving his teachings on this practice. BTW, though not a samaya, you have to maintain a daily recitation in the practice taught by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche too. If you break the daily recitation you lose the function of the mantra and have to repeat the 3 day retreat, or so it's explained.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

In the past month, I have not done a darn thing as far as dharma practice goes.

Instead, I've been eating raw food, taking GABA, getting a lot of rest and focusing on my work and trying to exercise more. And I feel much better.

Could I do this all and still spend so much time trying to do dharma practice? Nope. Every day life is a lot easier when you're paying attention to it and working at it very closely. Dharma practice of any sort is not conducive to the real world in my experience, since I function in duality. It just adds a layer of stress to everything. As a matter of fact, I dare say I could probably turn my life around by investing each 24-hour period wisely in accomplishing real-world goals.

I wouldn't say I'm turning my back on Buddhism or Dzogchen, but I'm intentionally NOT doing anything. Still believe it and everything, I just can't function on it. It's like a bad drug for me, I guess.

Even now, just coming back recently to talk about a few things causes me stress. My heart feels like knots, hard to breathe.

"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron

padma norbu wrote:In the past month, I have not done a darn thing as far as dharma practice goes.

Instead, I've been eating raw food, taking GABA, getting a lot of rest and focusing on my work and trying to exercise more. And I feel much better.

Could I do this all and still spend so much time trying to do dharma practice? Nope. Every day life is a lot easier when you're paying attention to it and working at it very closely. Dharma practice of any sort is not conducive to the real world in my experience, since I function in duality. It just adds a layer of stress to everything. As a matter of fact, I dare say I could probably turn my life around by investing each 24-hour period wisely in accomplishing real-world goals.

I wouldn't say I'm turning my back on Buddhism or Dzogchen, but I'm intentionally NOT doing anything. Still believe it and everything, I just can't function on it. It's like a bad drug for me, I guess.

Even now, just coming back recently to talk about a few things causes me stress. My heart feels like knots, hard to breathe.

I felt/feel a bit like that sometimes. I think the main thing is you recognize you're having such problems right now and generate the intention that you'll try your best to practice in the future. Sometimes you just have take care of worldly things first in order to practice. That said, I don't think there's necessarily any contradiction of dharma and worldly life. If you can't do anything else you can at least practice mindfulness. In fact I remember Norbu Rinpoche saying that for a dzogchen practitioner mindfulness is a more important practice than yidam practice. You can practice the 4 awareness' too and a bunch of other things.

Also I think the dharma shouldn't become a source of stress. If that's happening maybe you need to relax about it a bit and take a bit more laid back approach.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

padma norbu wrote:In the past month, I have not done a darn thing as far as dharma practice goes.

Instead, I've been eating raw food, taking GABA, getting a lot of rest and focusing on my work and trying to exercise more. And I feel much better.

Could I do this all and still spend so much time trying to do dharma practice? Nope. Every day life is a lot easier when you're paying attention to it and working at it very closely. Dharma practice of any sort is not conducive to the real world in my experience, since I function in duality. It just adds a layer of stress to everything. As a matter of fact, I dare say I could probably turn my life around by investing each 24-hour period wisely in accomplishing real-world goals.

I wouldn't say I'm turning my back on Buddhism or Dzogchen, but I'm intentionally NOT doing anything. Still believe it and everything, I just can't function on it. It's like a bad drug for me, I guess.

Even now, just coming back recently to talk about a few things causes me stress. My heart feels like knots, hard to breathe.

So just take it easy man! I send you some good thoughts and a few vajra armor mantras your way.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa