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Ma'ake, are you willing to acknowledge any corresponding tension on the left?

Sorry for the tardy reply.

Of course there is tension within the US left. Since we only have 2 parties, each party is a very large tent. Whether it's the economy or social matters or the environment, there is a continuum of thought under the Democrat tent, and differences of opinion, like there has always been under the Republican tent.

Back to the beginnings of our shared discovery of this funneling into two parties, JD told us about the Boll Weevils in the South (now moved over to the GOP) in the same party with Gloria Steinem followers, etc.

The current crop of Dem presidential candidates reflect that diversity & associated tensions. Sanders & Warren are pretty left, Harris & Klobuchar are to the right of them, Biden is certainly more centrist (getting pulled to the left in disavowing the Hyde Amendment).

Mayor Pete represents a unique blend - his military bonafides, Rhoades scholar, his personal situation. He's showing a mental muscularity that might bring in centrists, the far left, and maybe a lot of Trump voters.

Liberals (I’m generalizing) often seem very concerned (often using the word “frightening”) about trends they see on the right. They see the next Hitler around every corner, and often wax eloquent on the subject. You should see some of the things my very liberal partners in our New York office write. I am not frightened by the left, but I see some trends that are disturbing. I just wonder if my liberal friends see the same thing. I don´t know what millennials and Gen Z have to do with it, but I´m ready to learn.

I see the potential for authoritarianism on the right. Some already exists and Trump is pretty explicit in his admiration for autocrats around the world, and, in the context of what I learned in Econ about the "Authoritarian Personality Complex", it's not far fetched to imagine a justification among conservatives, even conservative LDS, for a "Dirty War" kind of crackdown, ala Argentina in the 70s & 80s.

"In order to save the Constitution, we had to suspend the Constitution".

"We believe in being subject to Kings, rulers...."

I'd like to think that potential is pretty low, but at this point in my journey, I'm more concerned about what kind of America my kids and grandkids are going to have to deal with, less concerned about my own safety. Brooks' column reassures that popular electoral support for a sharp right turn into authoritarianism certainly won't be there. It would have to be an overt dictatorship, suppressing the majority.

(Not part of our conversation about US politics, but there is a current extreme example of dictatorship over an unsupportive majority. There's a dynamic occurring in Sudan that is heartbreaking for one of my coworkers. Basically they've had a 30 year military dictator, in the past 6 months a pro-democracy movement has emerged, big demonstrations / sit-ins, which got the dictator to step down, only to have his immediate military leadership assume control. In the past 2 weeks a crackdown has occurred, 100+ dead, but the protesters have kept the pressure on, refusing to negotiate. The average age in Sudan is 30, so one way or another, change will be coming. They've mostly thrown off the tyranny of the Muslim Brotherhood, but now face just raw dictatorship. Sudan is not the US - I'm not making comparisons, other than the range of possible situations is pretty wide.)

This is from Commentary magazine. I didn't know about this case but the facts as reported are disturbing. I hope the atmosphere on college campuses will start tipping back towards a more balanced ethos.

At Oberlin, a Tipping Point

Conservatives are often scolded for making too much of a fuss about the progressive left’s antics on college campuses and for complaining excessively about the destructive mob mentality that fuels many social-justice-warrior campaigns.

But a recent verdict in a lawsuit filed by a family-owned business in Ohio against Oberlin College reveals that the damage done by campus protestors and woke university administrators has real-world consequences. It also offers a glimmer of hope that we have reached a tipping point in the culture wars on campus.
On November 9, 2016, one day after Donald Trump won the presidential election, Gibson’s Bakery owner Allyn Gibson, who is white, witnessed Oberlin student Jonathan Aladin, who is black, shoplifting two bottles of wine from the store. (Aladin, who was underage, had evidently planned to buy an additional bottle of wine using a fake I.D. but ended up stealing instead).
When Gibson stopped the shoplifter to retrieve the stolen items and call police, the thief attacked him, threw the bottles of wine, and fled the store. Gibson followed him and was attacked further by Aladin and two female friends (also black). As the police incident report reveals, when police arrived, they found Gibson on his back on the ground being kicked and punched by Aladin and the two female accomplices. Gibson told police that Aladin had threatened to kill him during the attack.
In a rational world, this would have been handled as a simple robbery and assault arrest. The facts of the incident were not in doubt, and many witnesses corroborated Gibson’s account.
But this is Oberlin, a campus that has become a caricature of political correctness. It is the place where students protested the school’s food-service providers because of a poorly-executed Banh Mi sandwich (there were also complaints about inauthentic sushi and General Tso’s chicken.) Students declared this an intolerable form of cultural appropriation, and school administrators quickly caved to their demands for more ethnically sensitive cuisine, setting up a meeting where students could air their grievances about the cafeteria menu and telling the school newspaper, “It’s important to us that students feel comfortable when they are here.”
The problem is that they are too comfortable—so comfortable in the knowledge that their feelings and ideological beliefs will be catered to that facts are no longer relevant to any discussion or debate on campus. In the case of Gibson’s, a simple shoplifting incident prompted the Black Student Union, College Democrats, and the student senate to launch a protest and boycott outside the store; the student senate even issued a resolution calling for an end to all financial support for Gibson’s Bakery by anyone at the university.
At the protest, students hurled expletives at customers, entered the store, and waved signs saying, “End Racial Profiling.” And not only students; Oberlin’s dean of students, Meredith Raimondo, attended the protest and passed out leaflets that read, in part: “This is a RACIST establishment with a LONG ACCOUNT of RACIAL PROFILING and DISCRIMINATION.”
The school did briefly stop doing business with Gibson’s, offering an unusual reason for doing so in a statement it issued two days after the incident: Donald Trump.

“This has been a difficult few days for our community, not simply because of the events at Gibson’s Bakery, but because of the fears and concerns that many are feeling in response to the outcome of the presidential election,” the statement from Oberlin president Marvin Krislov and Raimondo said. “We write foremost to acknowledge the pain and sadness that many of you are experiencing.”
As for the actual physical pain experienced by Gibson at the hands of Aladin and his accomplices, the school was silent. Students and administrators who protested the store assumed that because the shoplifters happened to be black, the white business owner’s intention in preventing them from stealing must have been racist.
The claims that the store had a “long account” of racially profiling black customers was also repeatedly made without any evidence (a police investigation later revealed that in the past five years, only 6 of the 40 people arrested for shoplifting at Gibson’s were black.) As a long-time Gibson’s employee (who happens to be black) told the student newspaper, “If you’re caught shoplifting, you’re going to end up getting arrested. . . When you steal from the store, it doesn’t matter what color you are. You can be purple, blue, green, if you steal, you get caught, you get arrested.”
The fact that Gibson’s had been serving the community for more than 100 years meant nothing. Nor did the fact that it was Aladin, not Gibson, who broke the law. As the Weekly Standard reported, Oberlin officials even suggested to local businesses that if students were caught shoplifting in the future, the school should be called, not the police, so that the thieves could be given one free pass for their actions.
According to the Legal Insurrection blog, which has followed the case since the beginning, all three of the assailants eventually “would plead guilty to shoplifting and aggravated trespassing, and would avow that Gibson’s was not engaged in racial profiling.” None served any time in jail. Even that non-punishment was too much for Oberlin’s administrator-activists. As Legal Insurrection noted, when news broke that Aladin and his accomplices would receive only probation, “Toni Myers, Oberlin College’s Multicultural Resource Center Director then, send [sic] out a text which said, ‘After a year, I hope we rain fire and brimstone on that store.’”
In 2017, after taking a significant hit to their profits because of the protests, Gibson’s decided to hold Oberlin and its officials accountable for their kowtowing to student protestors. The bakery filed a civil lawsuit against the school (including Raimondo) for “libel, slander, interference with business relationships, interference with contracts, deceptive trade practices, infliction of emotional distress, negligent hiring and trespass.” This week, a jury agreed with the bakery’s claim that the school and its officials had acted irresponsibly and awarded Gibson’s $11 million in damages (if you’re concerned about runaway tort judgments, this might seem like a disturbingly high number for a small bakery, but considering that Oberlin claimed Gibson’s was worth less than $35,000, it’s not surprising the jury responded with a large damage verdict).
During the trial, Gibson’s lawyer argued, “When a powerful institution says you’re racist, you’re doomed.” As anyone who has witnessed the mob mentality among campus progressive activists can attest, student mobs only thrive because administrators allow them to do so. With their courtroom victory in Ohio this week, the Gibson family put college officials across the country on notice that people unfairly victimized and libeled by campus activists are done acquiescing to the mob’s demands.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

The Oberlin College case is fascinating. I'm wondering the same thing with the Fair Oaks Farm outrage going on now. It has become extremely hard to find the facts on that case where the Fair Oaks people are claiming they fired the employees when they found it about abuse and long before the video came out. They also claim that some of the abuse may have even been committed by the ARM group.

Conversely people are going nuts about it without all the facts (for all I know Fair Oaks was complicit in the whole thing) without really knowing anything. I noticed in Harmon's they had pulled their products off the shelf with a sign saying they would not be selling their products anymore. I wondered what Harmon's would do if I targeted them to document employee bad behavior. I worked at a grocery store as a kid, it wouldn't be hard.

I'm getting pretty tired of the manufactured outrage and I think that people who are legit victims should be too. This stuff undermines THEIR credibility. We need to let things play out in a court of law, not the court of public opinion.

In short, from what I know about the Oberlin case, that college got exactly what they deserved.

Political/Cultural Chit-Chat

I read today that the jury has now awarded $22 million in punitive damages. Total recovery is $33 million or so. Reportedly the entire award will likely be reduced to $22 million because in Ohio punitives can’t total more than 2x compensatory damages. Still a nice chunk of change.

EDIT: The jury actually awarded an additional $33 million, which will be reduced to $22 million–twice the compensatory damages–under Ohio law. So the total damages will be $33 million. If I'm Oberlin's counsel I'm thinking about what my client and I might have done to keep this case from getting in front of a jury.

Last edited by LA Ute; 06-14-2019 at 07:04 AM.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I read today that the jury has now awarded $22 million in punitive damages. Total recovery is $33 million or so. Reportedly the entire award will likely be reduced to $22 million because in Ohio punitives can’t total more than 2x compensatory damages. Still a nice chunk of change.

EDIT: The jury actually awarded an additional $33 million, which will be reduced to $22 million–twice the compensatory damages–under Ohio law. So the total damages will be $33 million. If I'm Oberlin's counsel I'm thinking about what my client and I might have done to keep this case from getting in front of a jury.

It’s an interesting case. Oberlin has a history of students protesting things they deem racially motivated. The previous case was in regards to food and poor attempts at ethic food.

The bakery drew attention to that previous case saying the college wanted to draw attention away from their own issues by letting students go after the bakery.

But the college seems oblivious to things. A high profile college official attends the protest and hands our fliers? The student senates call to boycott is displayed for a year?

If I were their attorney I’d be telling them to re-examine their policies about rallies, boycott calls etc.

(Side note, IMO we’re seeing a disturbing trend of employees using force to detain people for minor thefts. Employers need to remind their employees it’s not worth it over a few bucks)

The NYT Blogcast "the Daily" has been touring different European countries to get a sense of the anti-EU sentiment prevalent in Europe leading up to the recent EU elections.

France has the Yellow Vests, who mentioned immigrants, but seemed to be more angry about central & eastern European nations joining the EU, with competition from other EU companies able to undercut French company bids for business. The Yellow Vests seem like a spontaneous, leader-less movement of folks who want to preserve their culture and opportunities for youth to not be diminished from what their parents experienced. The Yellow Vests seemed to know how to gave a good time - singing, laughing, happy.

Italy was far more ethno-nationalist, upset about immigrants, though in absolute & relative numbers, immigration has not had a major impact. The key economic stat: youth unemployment is 30%. The Italian anger seems to roughly correlate with the Millennial alienation we see here, though they are turning toward ethno-nationalism, with immigration as the scapegoat, while here a lot of anger among Millennials is turned toward our economic system, itself.

Poland was fascinating. They've been out of the soviet block for a little under 30 years, in the EU for a decade, or so. They've had a nationalist government for several years, with the media taken over by the government, a crackdown on LGBTQ groups & churches who aren't Catholic. Interestingly, the government there sees their democracy as more "pure" as majority rules, but with no rights for minorities groups. To the Poles, "democracy" is superior to "liberal democracy". They see nationalistic Hungary as far more democratic than Germany, where LGBTQ rights are robust.

Those 3 nations had widely different common understandings of what society's problems are, and how to resolve them.

Today's episode covers Germany, which I'm guessing will be very different than the previous 3 nations covered.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

The same people who think it’s a good idea to maintain an open line to foreign enemies apparently now believe it’s appalling for Biden to have observed collegial norms with fellow Democrats. The author Ta-Nehisi Coates went so far as to call it “a secondary endorsement, as crazy as it sounds, of Jim Crow,” on the theory that Biden’s civility meant making his peace with a racist system.

In fact, Biden made no such peace; all the landmark civil-rights legislation was passed well before he arrived in the Senate in 1973. He simply dealt with the Congress as he found it and looked for opportunities to be constructive and consequential rather than destructive and obnoxious. That is now his brand as a presidential candidate, and it’s what his critics find so objectionable: How dare he try to work with his opponents instead of seeking to shun or annihilate them?

These same critics have also ripped Biden for saying a kind word about Mike Pence and Michigan Republican Fred Upton (the latter for advancing legislation for treatment of pediatric cancer). The goal isn’t simply to discredit Biden as generationally out-of-touch or too politically clubby or insufficiently transformational or otherwise gaffe-prone. It’s to rid the party of compromisers of any sort — that is, to purge the Democratic Party of its democratic instincts.

All of this is evidence of what psychologist Pamela Paresky calls the “apocalyptic” approach to politics that increasingly typifies today’s progressivism. “It is an apocalyptic view, not a liberal one, that rejects redemption and forgiveness in favor of condemnation and excommunication,” she writes in Psychology Today. “It is an apocalyptic perspective, not a liberal one, that sees the world as needing to be destroyed and replaced rather than improved and perfected.”

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

It is the same with the Trump GOP. A democracy requires compromise to move things forward. The Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution were conceived from compromises. Nothing of substance ever gets done because not only is there no compromise, there is no willingness to sit down and discuss the issues. Meeting with someone from the other side is viewed as political party treason. They send messages back and forth to one another on twitter and on news shows. I don't see things improving.

Political/Cultural Chit-Chat

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I think the average moderates of each party or of each philosophy (liberal or conservative) understand one another fairly well. The problem is that neither party is controlled by the moderates and the elected officials need to pander to the party in order to keep getting that paycheck.

I drove to Dino, Colorado, just across the Utah/Colorado border, with a friend who was picking up some THC for use with his medical marijuana letter. First, Dino, has about 100 people tops. It has 3 dispensaries. Of a $300 purchase, about $125 went to State and local taxes.

There are a lot of ways to injest THC. I read a bunch of stuff he had received from the doctor and learned a ton. He has struggled with opiod dependency due to chronic pain for years and is hopeful that this can help him remove opioids from his life.

I drove to Dino, Colorado, just across the Utah/Colorado border, with a friend who was picking up some THC for use with his medical marijuana letter. First, Dino, has about 100 people tops. It has 3 dispensaries. Of a $300 purchase, about $125 went to State and local taxes.

There are a lot of ways to injest THC. I read a bunch of stuff he had received from the doctor and learned a ton. He has struggled with opiod dependency due to chronic pain for years and is hopeful that this can help him remove opioids from his life.

THC isn’t what medical marijuana patients are wanting.

THC is the most psychoactive of the cannabinoid’s but it isn’t the most effective at pain management. That’s CBD.

That’s part of the issue with medical marijuana, the lack of true regulation leaves people hoping they’re getting what they need.

(Side note, states with legalized recreational marijuana often see THC levels skyrocket, as growers breed out the more effective cannabinoids to get the best psychoactive plant)

THC is the most psychoactive of the cannabinoid’s but it isn’t the most effective at pain management. That’s CBD.

That’s part of the issue with medical marijuana, the lack of true regulation leaves people hoping they’re getting what they need.

(Side note, states with legalized recreational marijuana often see THC levels skyrocket, as growers breed out the more effective cannabinoids to get the best psychoactive plant)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Well, that is somewhat like saying that morphine isn't effective at pain management because it just numbs you to the pain instead of addressing the core cause which is usually inflammatory in nature. CBD is an anti-inflammatory like many others out there. It works for some people to help reduce pain and does not help others. Just like other anti-inflammatories.

This friend saw an MD in Ogden and had reams of information about cannabis. While CBD is generally more effective in addressing pain, that is not always true. A balance of CBD and THC will do more to relieve pain than than CBD alone for some people. This involves levels of THC far below what is used to get high. However, it requires diligent adherence to the information provided by the doctor and an understanding of the levels of the THC and CBD levels in the products they purchase. The items he purchased were clearly marked as to how much THC and how much CBD are contained. The information I read reiterated over and over that less is more. That you start with very low doses. This is very easy to do with gummies and tinctures. Those who are truly looking at this to address pain and avoid opioids can easily regulate and monitor their intake if they read the material and understand what they are buying. The guy at the dispensary spent about an hour explaining to us the different products and the different THC and CBD levels. It was pretty thorough and because he had read the information before hand and I read much of it on the ride, we were able to understand how to translate that information and apply it to how the doctor instructed him to proceed. Those using pain as an opportunity to get high will be able to do that as well.

Political/Cultural Chit-Chat

[These views] do not reflect the on the ground reality in most of America. Housing segregation, for example, has declined in most metropolitan areas, with the notable, and somewhat ironic, exception the most “progressive” cities such as San Francisco, Seattle and Portland.

Once restricted to barrios and ghettos, African-Americans, Latinos and Asians have been moving en masse towards the ever more integrated suburbs.

The racial Republic is losing ground with the masses of Americans. Today roughly 86 percent, according to one recent survey, of adult Americans do not believe European roots are necessary to be “truly American.” Two in three said they felt optimistic about breaching racial divides.

Culturally we have become ever more integrated. Despite the bizarre concerns of “cultural appropriation ,” Americans have gone from consuming bland Northern European fare to regular patrons of Italian, Jewish, and, most recently, Asian and Latino fare. If we are indeed, “what we eat,” we are a rapidly diversifying people.

Given our changing demographics, it is difficult to see how a reparations regime would even be workable. Many African-Americans are more than descendants from African slaves; roughly one quarter of their DNA, according to one recent study, comes from Europe, Asia, Latin America or Native Americans. This is particularly true of places like Louisiana, where many African-Americans identify as mixed-race creoles and where a significant number — quarter of New Orleans population in 1830 — lived as free people before the Civil War.

More critically, the fastest growing part of the African-American population is from the Caribbean or Africa. Today, approaching one in ten African-Americans is an immigrant or their offspring; the number of such Americans has grown fourfold since 1970, and now accounts for over 3.7 million residents.

Racial bean counting will become even more difficult due to the remarkable rise of mixed race children, which, notes Pew, has almost tripled to 14 percent since 1980; it is roughly 20 percent in California, and well higher in both red Alaska and blue Hawaii. This will increase in the future as 17 percent of all marriages are now interracial....

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

TEXAS—In an interview with reporters after a visit to an immigrant detention center, a visibly shaken Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez insisted that Border Patrol agents had turned her into a newt.

"How do you know Border Patrol is evil?" a journalist asked.

"Why, they turned me into a newt!" she cried. "I walked into that concentration camp and right away I knew I wasn't safe, because they pulled out their spellbooks and pointy witches' hats and started muttering ancient incantations. The next thing you know, I was a small, semiaquatic, salamander-like creature." She also claimed they all had long, warty noses and hats, though she later admitted she dressed them up like that.
The obvious question came to mind.
"Uh... a newt?" one bewildered reporter asked.
During the few awkward moments of silence that followed, you could "almost" hear the gears in Ocasio-Cortez's head slowly begin to turn, creaking from disuse. She suddenly realized the hole in her story, that she was no longer a newt.
Thinking fast, she replied, "I got better."

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I wonder if the Philadelphia 76ers, the New England Patriots, and Hamilton will now become triggers?

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I wonder if the Philadelphia 76ers, the New England Patriots, and Hamilton will now become triggers?

I hate when the flag in any form is used as a decoration for clothing, but NIKE's removal of the product was an overreaction. Does anyone really care what Kaepernack thinks? I understand the confederate flag. It is a symbol of racism and open rebellion against the United States. I view it to the South the same way I view the swastika to Germany. I have consciously pulled out of a roadside store that had one on the wall.

The argument has been that hate groups have appropriated the Betsy Ross flag. That part makes sense, however I think we should appropriate it back. This one can and should have been done. No better way to do it thank to say, "We are taking back any racism that may be associate with our nation's historical symbols..."

Also, I was surprised to learn if had been appropriated. However I try to remember that I don't understand what it is like to be a minority in this regard.

Kapernick has a lot of influence in minority communities and so I don't blame Nike for its reaction. However I wish we'd respond to hate with positivity... that isn't easy to do.

Political/Cultural Chit-Chat

Here’s what I see as the problem Nike has created. By caving in to Mr. Kaepernick the way they have, they’ve immediately turned this previously unknown concern into a national issue. Now, on the alt-right, hate groups will appropriate the Betsy Ross flag and use it to antagonize people who now have signaled that they find the flag offensive. On the left, this will become a big cause, and people will be running around trying to change any logo that includes that flag design. I think the Philadelphia Flyers logo includes the Betsy Ross flag. So what has been for a couple of centuries simply part of Americana has become what it is now. Anyway, this is all so unnecessary, and Nike is responsible.

Last edited by LA Ute; 07-05-2019 at 02:22 PM.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

Here’s what I see as the problem Nike has created. By caving in to Mr. Kaepernick the way they have, they’ve immediately turned this previously unknown concern into a national issue. Now, on the alt-right, hate groups will appropriate the Betsy Ross flag and use it to antagonize people who now have signaled that they find the flag offensive. On the left, this will become a big cause, and people will be running around trying to change any logo that includes that flag design. I think the Philadelphia Flyers logo includes the Betsy Ross flag. So what has been for a couple of centuries simply part of Americana has become what it is now. Anyway, this is all so unnecessary, and Nike is responsible.

Will these logos now be offensive?

The Phillies use the Liberty Bell. Since there was no liberty for so many people back at that time, should this symbol be considered offensive?

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

Here’s what I see as the problem Nike has created. By caving in to Mr. Kaepernick the way they have, they’ve immediately turned this previously unknown concern into a national issue. Now, on the alt-right, hate groups will appropriate the Betsy Ross flag and use it to antagonize people who now have signaled that they find the flag offensive. On the left, this will become a big cause, and people will be running around trying to change any logo that includes that flag design. I think the Philadelphia Flyers logo includes the Betsy Ross flag. So what has been for a couple of centuries simply part of Americana has become what it is now. Anyway, this is all so unnecessary, and Nike is responsible.

Kind of reminds me of a story that perhaps I have shared here. We got a new administration at my high school my senior year, and they came from some schools in some rougher areas. It was at a time when everyone was super concerned about gangs coming into the SL high schools. There was no gang problem at all at my school at the time, but they made a big deal about no wearing gang colors, etc, and they cracked down on anybody who wore prominent blue or red shirts etc.

A group of friends had gone to Disneyland that summer, they had all bought a ball cap with mickey mouse on it and they would all wear those caps all the time. The new admin decided that they must be a gang, and so soon the announcement went out that mickey mouse ballcaps were no longer allowed on school grounds. My friends and I decided this was hugely funny and decided to exploit it to our advantage. So, we decided to go and buy or wear our old Webelos neckerchiefs to school. We did that a few days in a row, about 12 of us, one of us got questioned and the next thing we knew, they had outlawed scout neckerchiefs (and if I remember correctly all scout clothing).

We thought we were pretty smart to have the scouts banned from school. But all of this feels kind of the same.

Judging by his name, the author does not appear to have an ethnic dog in this fight.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”