Just over two years ago (end of April 1999), Konqi the dragon decided to join the brave crew of the KDE ship in an endeavor to conquer your desktop. His help in promotional activities (as well as his intimidating flaming breath) has been invaluable to KDE's success. Tink had the brilliant idea to interview the handsome dragon for the launch of a new series of the famous KDE people interviews. Tink made the site even more beautiful and the new series of questions even more interesting. And there are other goodies in preparation, as you can check for yourself. Thank you, Tink, for this refreshing story.

Hey man, lighten up. Life in the KDE world ain't that bad.
I have just enabled AA fonts on a desktop that leaves anthing in the commercial world for dead. The majority of the applications developed by the talented and dedicated people who have created this environment are in various stages of usability but I have seen amazing progress in the past two years in many areas. There is nothing wrong with injecting a bit of humour into the community and I for one enjoy the interviews and in this case the lightheartedness of the KDE team. The developers and support team are entitled to relax a bit and enjoy the use of their window on the world without grouchy individuals like you raining on their parade. I'll be looking for your contribution to the project in the near future!

Geez, guy! You're sounding like a little fun is the spawn of satan! How long could this have taken? Like an hour? Maybe less? That amount of time is not what I would call "Wasted Time." And if you really want, you can use KDE 1.1.2, it isn't a bad desktop. But the best thing you could do is develop some patches or fixes of which you spoke of before. Just quit complaining :-)

> Would it not be real to work on the real issues
> and problems with KDE2 rather that talk on and
> on about silly subjects like this?

But James,

Why are you wasting your time by posting this
here? Why aren't you busy tracking down why your
YMF44b sound card doesn't work? Why haven't you
written a MP3 player yet? Don't tell me that you
are such a wanker that you can't even program!
They have books in the library about all that
stuff you know. So stop wasting your time here
and do something usefull.

> An ugly woman in a new dress is still an ugly
> woman! This is my point about flash before
> stability

Your screenshot hurts my eyes. I doubt anyone could be productive staring at for a long time.

It probably even breaks labor laws in several countries, here in the Netherlands I believe that to prevent work related injuries such as RSI you have to read text black on white. My boss actually made a comment on the white on black Konsole's of mine. I wonder what he would do if I started using those colours!

And using colours for checkboxes (green/red) is behaviour very dependant on the Western culture and not completely suitable for world-wide use. That is the reason they were removed from the old System theme of KDE2 pre-alpha (back in 1999).

I've recently taken a look at the ABI Word code and found that it basically was programmed in C++ from 10 years ago. char* everywhere, no strings, no vectors. Yuck. No chance you'll get this thing more stable than KWord.

> An ugly woman in a new dress is still an ugly woman! This is my point about flash before stability.

... says he after posting the URL to one of the most eye-piercing screenshot ever been displayed.

***YAWN*** - you are so lame that even libmp3lame can't top you. You already posted this eye-hurting fake-screenshot months ago. If you were half as lame as you are you would have made sure that this "screenshot" wouldn't contain those obvious text alignment-"bugs" ...

Yes there is something very fake about that isnt there. To call it his 'kde AbiWord version" is practically fraud. It is so easy to put a title on something. Someone with 25 alleged yrs programming would know that a kde app has to actually have some kde code in it. Running a gtk/gnome app under kde and changing the title does not make it a kde app.

But never fear, I will use my 'kde xmag version" to save the day: I need to after looking at that screenshot.
Does this geek really think that is what people want? The guy has absolutely no-conception of UI design nor artistic or graphic talent. That would have to be the most atrocious colour scheme I have ever seen out of hundeds of themes and could never be used in real work.

And as for the original issue, these product identification icons are essential to building a product image and ensuring the long term proliferation and success of kde but the reasons are to much to go into here and besides I think James is on a different wavelength.

James:
1) use civilised languange. No need to swear, it only shades your stature

2) I know I will shock you, but my main attraction towards KDE is *the fun it provides me* constantly, be it that I code, I chat with peer developers, I read masterful code of others, I do conferencese, I give interviews, I write book chapters, I advocate or whatever.

3) The minute the fun factor goes away, KDE dies with a not more than 48 hours agony.

4) We are all aware we don't have a 100% perfect desktop. But we know it's not that bad, not only for its own price, but also for the price of the competition (microsoft)

5) We *will* improve it, but we need to have fun while doing it.

6) The dragon has more sense of humor than some real people, it seems :-)

Congrats Tink on another interesting feature...some of these KDE people are really really cool arnt they. ;-P

I think the whole Konqi thing is getting a little out of control, and my only worry is that it affects KDE's reputation in the enterprise. I mean...if you were a multi-millio pound company...would you put an environment on your machines that constantly shows a cartoon dragon...?

The other argument is that Linux has Tux, and it seems to be doing quite well. Well, a friend of mine (who is leading a fairly large and famous Linux company) said that he believes that the day Linux really hits the enterprise, the penguin will go. I can't really imagine anyone getting rid of the penguin though...

Anyway...interesting article as ever Tinkywinky, but maybe we should discuss taking the dragon out of a KDE a little. :-P

Sorry, Jono. If enterprises measure a software product by the look of it's mascot, then i personally dont care if they adopt it or not. They are unworthy.
Many people hate this paper clip, some love it. But does anyone say: "i really like word, but i cant use it because of this childish paper clip" ? _This_ would be the actual act of being childish.

paper clips: actually i really do like MS word but that paper clip thing _completely_does_my_head_in_

i don't just dislike it, i'm afraid i loathe it with a passion.

i think things like that are actually out of place in such an environment- "cute" is HIGHLY subjective and speaking for myself if i disagree that something _is_ cute i will find it intensly irritating to be constantly subjected to it.

no that i'm complaining at all about the kde dragon. how on _earth_ can you complain about you're not paying for? particuarily something as cool as kde! (and anyway, it dosen't get my goat like that hideous paper clip anyways because it dosen't keep popping up and attempting to take control!)

I agree, that paperclip is out of control. However, I'm more disgusted by the MSN/IE butterfly. I can just see an animation of Konqi un-twisting that paperclip and whacking the butterfly several times with it. >:^)>

Well, a friend of mine (who is leading a fairly large and famous Linux company) said that he believes that the day Linux really hits the enterprise, the penguin will go. I can't really imagine anyone getting rid of the penguin though...

I assure you Tux isn't going anywhere. IBM has spray painted a bunch of them on the sidewalk near my office and they're not showing any signs of disappearing.

Yes. Lets replace Tux and Konqui and Katie and everything else with splash screens containing pictures of dumb looking but mostly attractive women. I say this not as a sexist, but as an observer of such things (eg., Painshop Pro 7). After all, the advertising people must be right, musn't they, otherwise they wouldn't be in advertising.

This discussion is getting more interesting buy the minute. I suggest we replace the dumb looking but gorgeous women with the sleezy unattractive standard image of a nerd (that the 'general public' has) who works on KDE and see how much more popular KDE will be.

It would be really great as a bed-time story for most kiddies but come on where are we going? Is this for real? Do you not think KDE has the potential to put Linux on the map as a great OS?

Look if Linux is to succeed then, like it or like it not, you have got to produce a working environment that looks and works and performs better than MS Windows or Linux will just end up as a fun play-about program. Dragons don't really send out the right vibes to professional people nor do talking paper clips (even his Billness has at last got that point)!

Any new Linux user, with even half a brain, is looking so desperately hard at being able to use a PC with stable software or they will just keep on using the same old blue screen crasher called MS Windows($$$).

I am sorry but I really don't want to see Linux becoming one big joke.

Having spent many long hours sorting out other peoples MS Windows blue screen crashes I have found that certainly with KDE 1.1.2 you can actually run a small business and have total stability to boot. I would love KDE2 to be that way, I am sure it will be in time, but I am questioning KDE's current priorities.

Ok yes I can use KDE1.1.2 and you can all use KDE 2. whatever, but you know
for some time now, looking from the outside at KDE you see this "rush" to compete with Gnome, to be more flash, to release far to soon because your maybe so pedantic about losing out as "The Linux Desktop"!

I really like KDE, but it must be clear to all I do not like the way it is now going.

Ok its open source and yes people are giving their free time and total effort, but come on, what is more important? Surely get the ruddy thing stable first, port over all the programs you can that worked well in KDE1.1.2 rather than what is now actually happening. Transparent Icons, Dragons and other silly gimmicks are great but are not that good if the rest of KDE2's performance and stability is poor.

KDE1.1.2 put in an attic and labelled up as "No longer supported" before KDE2 is even half ready just so KDE can claim "Look at how great we are"!

And yet Guys KDE1.1.2 is totally stable and totally usable in an office environment.

So why this big rush to realise a half finished product with silly gimmicks?

Surely the flash and fun come way after getting the basics working correctly?

But I must say, James, that I have seen more impressive screenshots. A preferences dialog does not a featureful word-processor make... And your color scheme looks god-awful.

About your original post: I find your reaction surprising. No doubt I am not alone. If you have at all followed reactions to the releases of KDE 2.0 and 2.1, you should know that your experiences are not at all typical.

KDE 2.X is a very large software suite. It can be difficult to compile and configure properly. Perhaps that is the source of your problems. Try pre-compiled binaries. Maybe you will change your mind.

If I was you, I would actually try it out before commenting further on this issue. You are so far off from what everyone else experiences that it makes you look like you do not know what you are talking about.

I have used pre-compiled binaries for kde2.0, kde2.0.1 and 2.1.0 and again source bzip2's

I dont think I can begin to tell you how many times/hours/phone/bill/costs I have downloaded 80 meg of files for each version the hours of compiling and 3 different versions of QT source. I am dam sure my system is A OK too. Other programs compile fine and run without errors. It has been my experiance to date that compiling from source code is always the best way to do it.

I certainly found problems with SuSE's pri-compiled binaries that went when I compiled from source.

Certaily the gold colour theme maybe subjective and I respect your view. Please look at the layout
and themming that is my point!

By the way my KDE 1.1.2 was totally complied from
KDE's bzip2 source files and boy oh boy its stable. I re-worked all the icons and kpanel with many changes.

I hear you but not sure if I follow your thoughts?
Regards,

I have also used KDE1.1.2 and various KDE2 versions on many other PC's that I build with the same results: that is KDE2 looks great but still to date just to many bugs to use in the real world for business.

I currently work for the Levinux project (http://www.levinux.org/). The project is connecting ten community centres to the Internet. It is lead by Jacques Daignault, a university professor at the Université du Québec à Rimouski.

Each community centre gets one server and several (6-20) dumb X terminals. All machines run Linux (we promote the philosophy of free software). We have so far 50+ installed machines and use them every day. I use mine all day long. So I think that when you talk about "use in the real world", I have some first-hand experience.

Our users do not for the most part know anything about Linux, so KDE 1.X was very helpful when we ran it. It made the project possible because it is powerful and, as you say, stable. Yet moving to KDE 2.X has been a no-brainer and we have never regretted it. "Unstable" is definitely not how I would describe KDE 2.

I cannot even remember the last time I saw Konqueror crash. Application crashes in general happen with KDE 2 applications as they do with all software every now and then, but KDE 2 application almost never crash for me. And I have never seen a KDE 2 desktop crash or lock up because of something KDE 2 did. (And KDE 1.1.2 did have at least one desktop-locking bug.)

Do yourself a favor. Grab a distribution CD that ships KDE 2.X (Mandrake 8.0 and RedHat 7.1 are both good bets) and make a fresh install on a clean machine. Then try it out. You might learn something. Or maybe we will realize that there really is something magical about where I work that makes software bugs go away, though I somehow doubt it.

I don't know why you would say "KDE2 looks great but still to date just to many bugs to use in the real world for business." I've been using KDE 2.1.x for months, and it works like a dream - I think KDE 2.1.x is a BIG improvement over KDE 1.1.x or 2.x even.
Also about "silly talking dragon" - tell me where there is a silly talking dragon, and I'll be shocked. All I've seen is Konqi in the about boxes, certainly nothing better or worse than Clippet the Paper Clip (who I actually like, I like 3D stuff :-).
Finally about themeing: "It will show you how nice KDE office programs can look and work." No offense, but I personally think KDE and KOffice's high color icons look nicer than the ones you point out. I especially appreciate them after I try doing a little icon design. Do you realize how hard would be just to create an icon like the one for the Konqueror Web Browser button?

> Surely the flash and fun come way after getting the basics working correctly?

on this topic you complain about essentially two things,
1- performance: I cannot comment on that since my computer is really cool and fast with lots of memory(1 Go). However after reading the different mailing lists, lots of effort are done to improve the performances. It is a long and nasty job and not fun at all most of the time. having good Performances is good from the user point of view, but, if you are not careful and good at it, you can end up with a code which is unreadable, difficult to maintain and share with many people. So there is always a tradeoff.
I use 2.2alpha and konqueror is faster than ever to display web pages. it is just awesome.
2- stability: well all my colleagues and students here are using kde 2.1.1 and they are experiencing no CRASH, it is highly useable and they are happy about it(they used 1.1.2 before and don't want to go back sorry ;)). Yes there might be some problems, with some web sites for example, but if you don't put the code for a public review you will never know about lots of problems, you know!
that's the power of Open Source development.

Kde is a great environment, stable and all.
it has lots of app which help productivity(kdevelop), not just a toy environment as you describe it. I have a proof of that every day at work!

And I tell you, if the environment is not stable
people would complain all the time saying that it was working better before. It didn't happen for me here. (btw the people I mentioned are really end users and not power users)

Moreover since the sources are available, you could perhaps enhance what you think is not good enough and share your work with the community.
That would be great. (unfortunately for most of us we have only 24h in a day, that everybody knows that it is not enough ;))

I appreciate that you presented your argument clearly, but frankly I have a hard time seeing where you are coming from. KDE is quite stable and usable, although not as good as it could be. 2.1.1 is, IMHO, up to the level of KDE 1.1.2, for stability.

You're right, flashy gimmicks do not come before stability, and we are not as stable as we can be, and are currently getting towards. But, we are not an organized effort! If people develop a stable, but flashy, gimmick feature, it makes no sense for us to ban it and say "No, don't add that until we've added more stability!".

KDE 1.x was abandoned too early, I'll agree with you there. It would have been much better if was ditched right about now, since at this point KDE 2.x is as stable.

(1) KDE, and hence Linux, cannot succeed if KDE has a mascot that you don't find professional.

Linux's success (tux the penguin and all) is not tied to KDE. Moreover, most projects have a logo. If you have a better logo, show us. If your screenshot is any indication, I don't think anything interesting will come of it.

(2) KDE 2 is being rushed out.

I don't agree with that. Take a look at KDE history (http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/proj.html#A bit of KDE History). You probably are using KDE 1.1.2, which was released 14 months after KDE 1.0. As KDE 2.0 was released in October 2000, that means KDE 2.0 has until December of this year to reach the stability of KDE 1.1.2, assuming the same time frame (KDE is much bigger now so maybe it may take a while longer to stabilize).

KDE 1 was never going to be "better" than MS Windows in terms of features; the architecture in KDE 2 has been much better thought out. The jump to KDE 2 was necessary, and dropping KDE 1 development was necessary to develop KDE 2. As KDE 1 is open source, anybody can continue to maintain it. Why should the core KDE developers stop developing KDE 2 -- to get it as stable as you like -- to work on KDE 1? What is there to do? You yourself said it is very stable . . . . And in terms of architectural improvements and feature enhancements, that's what KDE 2 is!

(3) KDE developers are not allowed to enjoy themselves or have fun until you have determined that KDE 2 is stable enough and the logo professional enough.

'Nuff said.

You should also bear in mind that many people want the flashing stuff. One of the biggest criticisms of KDE (valid or not) has been that it lacks the flashiness of GNOME. If someone wants to take their spare time to make transparent icons, more power to them. If as many people contribute as complain things would get stable very quickly.

You are a troll. Where does anything in my post say anything about KDE v. GNOME? Sure users will compare it and provide feedback; just like, if you would bother educating yourself, you will see that many users compare KDE to Windows or MacOS or AmigaOS. The flashiness-compared-to-GNOME thing happens to be one of the bigger user feedback items.

Now I guess you will say KDE developers shouldn't care about those users, right, as you have something you find more important for them to do?

>Surely the flash and fun come way after getting the basics working correctly?

I totally agree with this, but you seem to miss a thing. The person doing this doesn't have the knowledge and skill (IIRC) to fix the basics. This, hovewer, is an area where she can contribute. I believe most of the gimmicks are done by people who are better at other things than coding. Things like this don't decrease the effort to get the basics working correctly.

I can see what you are saing, and it seems that the other people seem to not understand the simple concept you are tring to get across and all they do is criticise your little typos.

My God....if these people are leading KDE then they are certanly in trouble. Anyone with half a brain should realize that stability is definately more important than looks.

Microsoft's main focus in Windows XP was a new look, but they failed to give the deserved focus on stability, and as you all have seen by the huge size of SP1 obiously they forgot something.

Bells and wistles are nice, and without them you have no market. What I think he questions is does the same focus go on asking the question "Does it actually work?"

My idea of what a good focus should be is consider all aspects.... Have people that make your little dragons but have someone that's going behind the senes and makeing sure all the backend code is stable.

KDE should really have a few different look & feels.
Maybe we can have some conslusions here, and I feel that all discussion about kde beiing childish is not so bad as it looks.
I remember that I was the first who protested on cooker mailing list when Mandrake replaced original kde splash screen (Mandrake 7.2) with its IMHO ugly and childish splash screen (colours & design were awfull).
Some other users protested too, and now Mandrake 8.0
ships with kde original splash screen, better designed icons etc.
James is right when he says that Konqi and Katie and KandAlf are not good for business users, but he is not right when he says that they are ugly.
We should really save those (sorry James) cute characters and add some icons for children and make the first Unix based desktop environment with additional look and feel for our children. I am not kidding
:). I wish Konqueror had a possibility to view 48x48 toolbar icons. It would be easier to create some icons for kids. And remember that small kids have difficulties pointing the mouse cursor to small areas on the screen.

>James is right when he says that Konqi and >Katie and KandAlf are not good for business >users, but he is not right when he says that >they are ugly.

Interesting question. I suspect that the suit who is 'put off' by Konqui/Katie/Kandalf is going to go with M$oft whatever. I say stick with them. I think it is time to try to break the mould, and to promote content over flashyp resentation (but I _don't_ mean settle for any old scruffy stuff); maybe some 'cute' images actually emphasises the fact that that bit is light hearted, and not some overblown marketing fantasy.

> We should really save those (sorry James) cute > characters and add some icons for children and > make the first Unix based desktop environment > with additional look and feel for our
> children. I am not kidding
> I wish Konqueror had a possibility to view
> 48x48 toolbar icons. It would be easier to
> create some icons for kids. And remember that
> small kids have difficulties pointing the
> mouse cursor to small areas on the screen.

Actually, this is a serious point; get people involved as early as possible .....