(on the subject of different types of people in the US, a lot of people in other countries don't quite realize just how big the country is. We have micro-cultures (I totally made that word up) in different regions and cities that can differ quite a bit.

Adam Driver is absolutely the best thing about Girls (though Jessa is pretty cool, too). Lol, regarding the season finale that just recently showed, where Adam and Jessa tore up their apartment, I like to joke that Kasdan called up Lena Dunham and said, "Hey, Lena, can you let Adam wreck something and throw a total hissy fit so that he will stay on point for Kylo while he's in New York finishing up Girls?"

(I'm falling out laughing) No, I am not Republican! OMG! I'm threatening to expatriate if Trump wins...I'm a fairly liberal Goth pagan freak who has been around the proverbial block a few times. A friend of mine once described it like this: "when you have a (figurative) high-caliber weapon pointed at your head and the person holding it is saying 'think or die!', you darn well start thinking hard about the world you live in." I guess that explains it.

OMG! Have I actually found somebody on the board who likes Adam and Jessa together?!!! Adam is without question my favorite person on the show, followed by Jessa, then Ray, Eli and Shoshanna. Most people are big Adam/Hannah fans here. I'm not. I don't know if it's because I binged watched it after the TFA or what, but I was so excited that my two faves were getting together this season. Of course, they had to blow up that relationship in a kind of out-of-nowhere/rushed fashion to get to the big dramatic season finale ... which I didn't love ... but that's a rant for another time. But I still like them together despite the ruining of the apartment. They are very real and honest with each other. I saw a lot less of both with Adam and Hannah ... but I'll go hide now . :-)

@Slade wrote:Ok, pretty much off the top of my head and without benefit of actual legal research into the particularities, and presuming United states jurisdiction, and ignoring the whole issue of military law, I think an argument can be made that Han, Rey, Finn were terrorists, engaging in terrorist activity when Kylo killed Han (basically a "self-defense," "defense-of-other," and "necessity" defense).

I can see a defense attorney trying to raise the defense that Kylo killed Han while under duress from Snoke, but I think anything Snoke was threatening Kylo with in order to get him to kill Han is just too attenuated for a duress defense to work.

Kylo had nothing to do with the destruction of the Hosnian system, as I see it.

I want to know more about that village on Jakku that he ordered the destruction of. I read somewhere (canon? Who knows?) that it was a village of religious people who were all Church of the Force, but were also somehow militant (and heavily armed). Arguably, they were knowingly hiding a criminal (assuming San Tekka was one), so Kylo's order might be ok under military law (I don't know enough).

Thank you. I think we are very much on the same page. I was hesitant to use the big "T" word because I never had to work with terrorism law in a post-911 context, and I don't want to get too political, but on a cursory glance, it looks like their behavior could most definitely meet the standard.

@Slade wrote:(on the subject of different types of people in the US, a lot of people in other countries don't quite realize just how big the country is. We have micro-cultures (I totally made that word up) in different regions and cities that can differ quite a bit.

Yup...I am learning about that one too...hey..but it's always good to shake your prejudices...don't ya think?

I wonder if Kathleen and JJ know of the rammifications of ReyLo in a modern day society and its impact on soul searching and personal develompment of smart empathetic dissilusioned people giving up hope in mankind? Cuz that was the ReyLo effect on me

@Kylo Ren wrote:@sladePheeew...that's a relief....you just restored my faith into my first impression guesses about people....because I missed out with the last person I met and respected who turned out to be a Republican...that was just too much for me...glad I can make fun of Trump with you....we all must have high hopes about American people choosing the lesser evil this time....cuz that one seems more dangerous than Bush....not that the alternative is that great either....talk about banning the videogames because they induce violent behaviour??? Wtf???? Hilary? And bowing down to some of the worse women's rights and equality saboteurs of our time....yuck...(I'm kinda anti religion too...specially represive and schovinistic ones)Isn't there a third option in the US?

Not realistically. I think Trump is a monster (and don't worry, even Obama makes fun of him, publicly). Honestly, I'm terrified he will win. And I will be nopeing the heck outta here as fast as I can get a work visa. Seriously, I don't think highly of the American herd as a whole (but I'm a misanthropic, sushi-eating intellectual elitist, so take what I say with a grain of salt). Yeah, what republicans have tried to do to women's reproductive rights in the past few years is disturbing. Just to put this out there, a lot of Americans have no flipping clue about a lot of things (cough, black site prisons, cough) because those things are not reported in the national media (seriously, I go to BBC or Al Jazeera English for news). And while I absolutely support anyone's right to believe whatever they want about religion, I find some religious people here to be just...frightening. And it's extremely pervasive in many parts of the country.

@Slade wrote:(on the subject of different types of people in the US, a lot of people in other countries don't quite realize just how big the country is. We have micro-cultures (I totally made that word up) in different regions and cities that can differ quite a bit.

Yup...I am learning about that one too...hey..but it's always good to shake your prejudices...don't ya think?

I wonder if Kathleen and JJ know of the rammifications of ReyLo in a modern day society and its impact on soul searching and personal develompment of smart empathetic dissilusioned people giving up hope in mankind? Cuz that was the ReyLo effect on me

@Slade wrote:(on the subject of different types of people in the US, a lot of people in other countries don't quite realize just how big the country is. We have micro-cultures (I totally made that word up) in different regions and cities that can differ quite a bit.

Yup...I am learning about that one too...hey..but it's always good to shake your prejudices...don't ya think?

I wonder if Kathleen and JJ know of the rammifications of ReyLo in a modern day society and its impact on soul searching and personal develompment of smart empathetic dissilusioned people giving up hope in mankind? Cuz that was the ReyLo effect on me

I'll shake you of those prejudices girl! :-) Neither side is evil, though the people with the big mouths on both sides want the opposing side to seem evil. I don't fit neatly into either box, and it's hard for people like me and a lot of others. There were people along the way that could have helped unite the country. Unfortunately neither of the presumptive candidates are going to do that this go around. My parents were political junkies and I was raised to be one too. Now I can hardly watch the news these days because who the heck knows what's going to happen. Things like the Kardasians are a sedative to national uncertainty and polarization. No wonder some people couldn't deal with Kylo Ren! He's not sedating! LOL!

@Kylo Ren wrote:@sladePheeew...that's a relief....you just restored my faith into my first impression guesses about people....because I missed out with the last person I met and respected who turned out to be a Republican...that was just too much for me...glad I can make fun of Trump with you....we all must have high hopes about American people choosing the lesser evil this time....cuz that one seems more dangerous than Bush....not that the alternative is that great either....talk about banning the videogames because they induce violent behaviour??? Wtf???? Hilary? And bowing down to some of the worse women's rights and equality saboteurs of our time....yuck...(I'm kinda anti religion too...specially represive and schovinistic ones)Isn't there a third option in the US?

Not realistically. I think Trump is a monster (and don't worry, even Obama makes fun of him, publicly). Honestly, I'm terrified he will win. And I will be nopeing the heck outta here as fast as I can get a work visa. Seriously, I don't think highly of the American herd as a whole (but I'm a misanthropic, sushi-eating intellectual elitist, so take what I say with a grain of salt). Yeah, what republicans have tried to do to women's reproductive rights in the past few years is disturbing. Just to put this out there, a lot of Americans have no flipping clue about a lot of things (cough, black site prisons, cough) because those things are not reported in the national media (seriously, I go to BBC or Al Jazeera English for news). And while I absolutely support anyone's right to believe whatever they want about religion, I find some religious people here to be just...frightening. And it's extremely pervasive in many parts of the country.

@Kylo Ren wrote:Exactly! @ReynakThem two...they are connected they saw eachother's minds...and inside their souls, man....during interogation..and thereis no denying that OR coming back from it...all after..."don't be afraid I feel it to" is personal for them...

Yes, and there's also something else. He never tried to kill her, not even hurt her,avoiding which surely required a lot of skill when using weapons like theirs.

What I've just thougt is that after she got the upper hand, she didn't go for the kill either, she went for painful punishment, but she could have beheaded him instead of branding him, she could have cut his throat just as easily as she cut his face, paifully, but not in a way that would endanger his life.

Before her meditaton at the edge of the ravine, she was barely able to stand up to him and delivered blows nearly blindly, they were so uncontrolled, but later, she knew what she was doing and didn't want to kill him, althought she clearly wanted to cause as much damage as possible to punish him for what he had done, for being all too human and not a monster like she'd rather think, for making her feel like a fish out of water.

She had reasons to be furious with him but that was personal and it was about her and him. She was punishing him because she had seen something in him that made her feel compassion and a connection, that he wasn't beyond hope, so when he killed Han he broke her hopes. This obviously means she had them, she felt drawn to him because he was like herself.

Rey must have felt so lonely all her life and then he finds this guy, beautiful like a prince (and literally a prince),and she notices he is like her although she can't grasp why. Some posters have said she wanted him to come home with Han, perhaps they are right and she wanted to get to know that guy she felt intrigued by and attracted to. The attraction was present in the interrogation scene and not only on his part. She felt it too, not only the connection but also the attraction, being so young it was probably the first time she ever felt attracted to a man so powerfully and maybe she cofused it with fear. She must have been afraid too, but she didn't look afraid in that scene, she rather seemed embarrased, confused, intrigued, and all that screams attraction.

So she also wanted to punish him for being the only one like her and having spoiled everything. She marred his beautiful face, for God's sake, it wasn't even subtle. But killing him, no way, not even with a voice inside her mind (Snoke's) ecouraging her to off him, not even to get rid of a dangerous enemy and a danger for the Resistance. She just couldn't.

I think Kylo Ren's dynamic is all about compassion, that many well-meaning people around the world are so worried about having nothing to do with a man like him and so concerned with their idea of justice that they forget something equally important, which is compassion. This has been a problem anti-Reylos clearly have, they blame those who want Kylo's redemption for what exactly? What is so wrong with giving people a second chance at life, not some sort of redemption that means nothing if the person involved has to die immetiately afterwards?

It seems as if an offender,a criminal, a sinner, can only hope for forgiveness from God but not from his/her neightbours. People are so concerned with making it clear that everybody has free will and is responsible for his/her actions and consequently has to pay for the offenses or crimes comminted, no matter the circumstances. Everything is about paying, about the damage caused and the people damaged, which of course I underrstand, but sometimes this makes people not see the whole picture, that free-will is not always an option and not everybody has lived under the same circumstances. They also forget about hope, compassion and second chances.

I understand where they come from, but life can't be seen in black and white, when people think everything is so clear and have not doubts, they become frightening. Horrible things have been done in the name of justice.

Last edited by Reynak on Fri 27 May 2016, 12:28 pm; edited 3 times in total

1. I don't do well with hypocrisy and it gets me into trouble because people want to keep their masks on.

2. Leaving your kid to feel alone is imo the worse thing - it's part of my story too, surrounded by people but feeling alone.

3. Those thoughts are probably not making you too popular I have wondered myself on how we raise children in our society - should add that I have no children. Somehow our traditional family model does not seem to be very successful. I had once a debate on whether kids should be raised more as part of a community as opposed to part of the traditional Disney-like family that seems to be doomed one day to explode or remain in its own vicious frustration circle. I am sure that there are happy traditional families, but how many? It's a difficult debate because I don't have children so I am usually dismissed. And if I had children, I'd be called the worse mother! I guess my problem is again hypocrisy. A lot of people seem to hang on to the (false?) glory of the traditional family model instead of opening themselves up to new ideas that could help everyone especially children. I don't have a solution, but I hate it when people keep lying to themselves.

4. I really wondered about that one too. Big time. Kylo has a heavy weight on his shoulder. His fans are looking up to his redemption as a validation of their own solitude and darkest feelings. I guess there's always a danger to become too attached to a fictional character especially in the first part of a trilogy. I have decided to trust Adam Driver and the way he plays Kylo on this. The story will probably not go exactly how I want it to go, but AD played him with a lot of suffering so I'll trust him to follow up on it.

1. "Take off that mask...you don´t need it" the use of the word need it here is what gives me the chills e.v.e.r.y. time....I think people keep their masks on because it is the way of our world now...everybody is doing it....the raw stripped down emotions and true feelings are a rarity in today´s society...apart from stupidity and shallowness that is....sometimes you see it in a movie or in a very good book...or hear it in a song...but those are mostly our own personal interpretations of it....when you see something as honest as Kylo´s reactions onscreen of course most won´t see it...they´re in hidding....and denial...probably so far gone by now that it´s irreversible...to the point that they don´t have real stripped down emotions anymore? but rather focus of work...Kardashians...gathering wealth....the material...That I see in most people around me and that is what is the cause of my loneliness these days....Sad...but true

2. That is the key thing that pushed Ben Solo to become Kylo Ren. I think he went to the darkside because he was just tired and wanted to feel nothing....I´ve done those sorts of things too...doesn´t help...not if you have light in you...lol...he IS a failure...can´t even become a Sith hahaha

3. I don´t care about being popular...never have...but you are right...one of the problems about raising children in today´s society or any other time´s society for that matter (because humans have always dealt with the same issues) is imo the fact that you want to protect your children from bad things...bad experiences...so you become a lying hypocrite...or do as I think Han did, just ignore the problem...and expose your child to some of the worst human traits there are: liars and cowards.....dunno which is worse TBH (and then we asks our selves why most of the kids today are screwed, or cruel or shallow)....the road to hell is indeed covered with good intentions...and corpses of your victims I´d might add...or broken souls (dammit I am so goth dispositioned today )But to get back to the point....what is the right way to raise your children...guess that depends on every child....but there is no perfect way for that...you make mistakes...both of you...the child and the parent....but the mistakes should be addressed and acknowledged not buried or ignored...like I have a feeling Leia and Han did by dumping their son to Luke...with the best intentions in their mind...to spare your child from pain...I am very conflicted on this matter due to my own personal experiences growing up....My mother was like Han....my father was the best father ever...but still brewed sith with my personality because he chose to be a noble hypocrite self-sacrifice his happiness and stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids....he recently told me that that choice was his biggest mistake....because now he knows that my brother and I most acutely sensed the hypocrisy, that marked us for ever...in however different ways.....You can´t hide stuff like that from children..they sense it all...and it´s really bad if they feel that things are wrong but can´t put their finger on it what exactly is wrong since all looks beautifull on the outside....cue the loneliness.....I know I won´t repeat his mistakes....And @SanghaRen, you would be an excellent parent, because you my dear are aware of what is wrong with this world...and only if we identify and recognize that, we know how to address it....the fact that most don´t is just sad...but true again....my advice...who cares what men and women that are like that think of you let´s be defiant it´s scary...but exciting..because it´s the right thing to do (please appreciate the irony of me quoting the liar of TFA...lol)

4. There are days when I have faith...days like these when I am reminded of the fact that there are beautiful, smart, thoughtful, strong and MF brave people outthere....sometimes I falter....what can I say...I am a very conflicted Kylo....and I´d say that I am already too attached to a fictional character.... I guess, my biggest fear on this matter is that the writers will sellout/chicken out at some point and kill him off and rob us of a proper redemption/atonement....which is always a possibility when dealing with multinational franchises and business oriented companies bla bla bla

That bolded part. Exactly. As I was reading earlier posts in this thread, I literally was thinking something similar and also derisively thought of the Kardashians. Regarding people not seeing things, I am continually surprised at people who just did not see any subtext at all in TFA, even after it is spelled out for them. I just think they must not have seen the same movie I saw.

Earlier, as I was reading today's excellent posts by so many people, someone (sorry I cannot remember who) said something about Kylo showing emotions and vulnerability and how great that was. And it's part of why I love Kylo so much. There's people out there who have denigrated Kylo for that, calling him names I won't repeat here, questioning his masculinity (which brings up a whole other discussion on gender and sexism), saying he's a horrible villain because he's not two-dimensional EVIL, and just evil. It's very confusing to me. Like the people who think Kylo is "weak" because he lost the fight to Rey, how do they discount the fact that he just got hit with a. bow. caster.? He took a hit from a weapon that sends stormtroopers flying, was bleeding out as he pursued Finn and Rey, and took multiple hits from Finn and Rey before she finally took him down. And that's not even taking into account his emotional state from just killing Han. And he was *hitting* that injury! That's not weak; that's hardcore! And there's no talking to those people. It can be pointed out that Kylo was badly injured, etc, and they still call him a "p***baby."

As an aside, that scene where Kylo is confronting Finn and Rey outside on SKB and hitting his wound and blood spatters on the show, that was beautifully filmed (and reminds me of a line from a Sisters of Mercy song, "and the cast of the blood on the driven snow..."),

Kylo is a freaking tank in that Snow Fight scene. He has no concern for his own personal safety whatsoever. He's crazed, he's devastated, he's having a mental breakdown, he's single-minded, he's in awe of Rey, but one thing he ain't is weak. I know so many people who complained that he was a "whiny d-bag who killed his father in cold blood." What the he**? Do you know what whiny looks like? Let me show you Exhibit 1, Anakin Skywalker. He had to get in the Vader suit before the whining stopped. Exhibit 2, Luke Skywalker, prior to Jedi training. I never saw Kylo whine once. He's actually entirely too miserable and dejected to whine IMO. Whining is an indication that you expect something better out of life. I don't think Kylo really has any kind of expectation like that anywhere in TFA.

Also, the cold-blooded? Where does that come from? Cold-blooded would have been slicing Han as he walked and not even missing a beat in the cadence. Instead, he's crying and looking really like a lost boy until the sun dies, and then after that he's like a fallen angel figure damned to hell, then he's crazed, but then Rey catches the lightsaber he's in awe.

And that's another thing, Kylo lost that fight because he was never trying to kill her in the first place. He didn't even kill Finn and he hates Finn's guts. The man stood there and gave away all his advantage at the cliff side and watched her "power up" because he turned into such a Sci-Fi Lloyd Dobler that he just wanted to teach her (aka "Stay with me") even though the rather trigger-happy woman had made several attempts on his life. (Regarding your other thread ... Oh yeah, Rey's gotta a lot of darkness in her. The dialogue doesn't indicate it, but watch DR's acting. Rey literally snarls a lot. And Rey of the "Let's beat Finn down with a stick like a gang enforcer girl" is not a cinnamon roll). Then as she starts attacking him Darth Maul style he actually says "harder, harder" to her several times. People have all kinds of interpretations on that ranging from a metaphor for sex, to his self-loathing and him wanting her to punish him, and/or him actually teaching her. I think it's probably some combination of all three, but whatever it is, it is not weak. The dude didn't cry out or scream in pain once, except one gutteral sound when she sliced his face. Compare that with the over the top "NOOOOOOOOOs" of his forebears.

But a lot of people don't see that because the whole idea of Kylo Ren makes them uncomfortable IMO. Vader is a basically evil incarnate, but he's awesome right. Kylo has doubts and he's weak. Vader is a monster so out of proportion that no one could turn into him. Kylo is the person you or your kid might be if a couple more mistakes or wrong choices were made. Kylo is thoroughly masculine, but he shows emotion, is actually portrayed as "beautiful" in many scenes (TTT man/Byronic hero) and that goes against of lot of deep-seeded "rules" for both men and women of how a man should be. Kylo comes across as an abuse victim/cult-like/mentally unstable. People are afraid to think of those things, because those kinds of things are very real. Kylo is a bad villain ... well maybe that's because he's not a villain at all, but a troubled person. But I think a lot of folks don't want to look at him and that the whole relatability aspect of him upsets them because he really does hit too close to home. This is just me talking out loud, but I think a lot of the divergence in opinion relates to whether you can acknowledge your own capability for darkness, for mental fragility, for mistakes, for being swept up by the events around you. If you know that we all have potential shadows that can take you under, Kylo Ren is not some scary thing that needs to be denied or "othered." He is certainly tragic, but he is also hopeful in that if this guy can pull it together, then maybe I can or my brother can or my kid can too. But if you view life denying that you are capable of terrible things, Kylo is like a disturbing kick in the gut. His character is a like a big neon sign saying, "Look! Look! Look what happened to Han and Leia's son! Han and Leia! If the heroes kid can go bad ... anyone can go bad!" And folks who don't want to think about their potential frailties really don't want to look at that neon sign.

I use my husband as a sounding board for a lot of this, and he has supported a lot of my thinking on this. (He actually really disliked TFA, thought it was not what it could have been, but he loved Kylo Ren and AD's acting). My husband is geeky and intelligent and introspective and intense and sensitive. He's like a mild TTT guy without AD's height and the long hair, lol. And he tells me that a lot of guys probably can't deal with Kylo Ren because he's too much of a mirror of things that they don't like about themselves. Whether it be anxiety or confusion or bad decisions or feeling inferior and/or subordinate to a father/authority figure to having trouble with their future to how they get along with women. A lot of those folks expected this SW to provide the escapism of a kicking a** and taking names Vader, a idealistically heroic Luke, an ultra-cool Han Solo who has humor, flies like a mofo and gets the girl in the metal bikini. TFA gave them a lot of that kind of escapism in Poe and the humor and everyman likeability in Finn ... but the blood relation to Han, Luke and Vader ... that guy is like someone out of an indie movie that a lot of these folks never queue up/download from Netflix. That guy is challenging. Not only because he hits too close to home ... but also, if Han's son can go so astray, can be so confusing and difficult to put in an easy black or white box, what does that indicate for the future of the movies ... when a lot of the "old home week"/comfort food/fan service that was in TFA might be replaced by something much more complicated? I think you said @slade that the Kylo storyline was very much a reflection of the times, and I completely agree with that. The thing is, these times are scary, and in a way Kylo is the embodiment of that miasma of uncertainty everyone feels. A lot of people want to escape that uncertainty into things like the Kardasians. Kylo drags some of those folks back when they don't want to be dragged.

@SoloSideCousin wrote:Kylo is a freaking tank in that Snow Fight scene. He has no concern for his own personal safety whatsoever. He's crazed, he's devastated, he's having a mental breakdown, he's single-minded, he's in awe of Rey, but one thing he ain't is weak. I know so many people who complained that he was a "whiny d-bag who killed his father in cold blood." What the he**? Do you know what whiny looks like? Let me show you Exhibit 1, Anakin Skywalker. He had to get in the Vader suit before the whining stopped. Exhibit 2, Luke Skywalker, prior to Jedi training. I never saw Kylo whine once. He's actually entirely too miserable and dejected to whine IMO. Whining is an indication that you expect something better out of life. I don't think Kylo really has any kind of expectation like that anywhere in TFA.

Also, the cold-blooded? Where does that come from? Cold-blooded would have been slicing Han as he walked and not even missing a beat in the cadence. Instead, he's crying and looking really like a lost boy until the sun dies, and then after that he's like a fallen angel figure damned to hell, then he's crazed, but then Rey catches the lightsaber he's in awe.

And that's another thing, Kylo lost that fight because he was never trying to kill her in the first place. He didn't even kill Finn and he hates Finn's guts. The man stood there and gave away all his advantage at the cliff side and watched her "power up" because he turned into such a Sci-Fi Lloyd Dobler that he just wanted to teach her (aka "Stay with me") even though the rather trigger-happy woman had made several attempts on his life. (Regarding your other thread ... Oh yeah, Rey's gotta a lot of darkness in her. The dialogue doesn't indicate it, but watch DR's acting. Rey literally snarls a lot. And Rey of the "Let's beat Finn down with a stick like a gang enforcer girl" is not a cinnamon roll). Then as she starts attacking him Darth Maul style he actually says "harder, harder" to her several times. People have all kinds of interpretations on that ranging from a metaphor for sex, to his self-loathing and him wanting her to punish him, and/or him actually teaching her. I think it's probably some combination of all three, but whatever it is, it is not weak. The dude didn't cry out or scream in pain once, except one gutteral sound when she sliced his face. Compare that with the over the top "NOOOOOOOOOs" of his forebears.

But a lot of people don't see that because the whole idea of Kylo Ren makes them uncomfortable IMO. Vader is a basically evil incarnate, but he's awesome right. Kylo has doubts and he's weak. Vader is a monster so out of proportion that no one could turn into him. Kylo is the person you or your kid might be if a couple more mistakes or wrong choices were made. Kylo is thoroughly masculine, but he shows emotion, is actually portrayed as "beautiful" in many scenes (TTT man/Byronic hero) and that goes against of lot of deep-seeded "rules" for both men and women of how a man should be. Kylo comes across as an abuse victim/cult-like/mentally unstable. People are afraid to think of those things, because those kinds of things are very real. Kylo is a bad villain ... well maybe that's because he's not a villain at all, but a troubled person. But I think a lot of folks don't want to look at him and that the whole relatability aspect of him upsets them because he really does hit too close to home. This is just me talking out loud, but I think a lot of the divergence in opinion relates to whether you can acknowledge your own capability for darkness, for mental fragility, for mistakes, for being swept up by the events around you. If you know that we all have potential shadows that can take you under, Kylo Ren is not some scary thing that needs to be denied or "othered." He is certainly tragic, but he is also hopeful in that if this guy can pull it together, then maybe I can or my brother can or my kid can too. But if you view life denying that you are capable of terrible things, Kylo is like a disturbing kick in the gut. His character is a like a big neon sign saying, "Look! Look! Look what happened to Han and Leia's son! Han and Leia! If the heroes kid can go bad ... anyone can go bad!" And folks who don't want to think about their potential frailties really don't want to look at that neon sign.

I use my husband as a sounding board for a lot of this, and he has supported a lot of my thinking on this. (He actually really disliked TFA, thought it was not what it could have been, but he loved Kylo Ren and AD's acting). My husband is geeky and intelligent and introspective and intense and sensitive. He's like a mild TTT guy without AD's height and the long hair, lol. And he tells me that a lot of guys probably can't deal with Kylo Ren because he's too much of a mirror of things that they don't like about themselves. Whether it be anxiety or confusion or bad decisions or feeling inferior and/or subordinate to a father/authority figure to having trouble with their future to how they get along with women. A lot of those folks expected this SW to provide the escapism of a kicking a** and taking names Vader, a idealistically heroic Luke, an ultra-cool Han Solo who has humor, flies like a mofo and gets the girl in the metal bikini. TFA gave them a lot of that kind of escapism in Poe and the humor and everyman likeability in Finn ... but the blood relation to Han, Luke and Vader ... that guy is like someone out of an indie movie that a lot of these folks never queue up/download from Netflix. That guy is challenging. Not only because he hits too close to home ... but also, if Han's son can go so astray, can be so confusing and difficult to put in an easy black or white box, what does that indicate for the future of the movies ... when a lot of the "old home week"/comfort food/fan service that was in TFA might be replaced by something much more complicated? I think you said @slade that the Kylo storyline was very much a reflection of the times, and I completely agree with that. The thing is, these times are scary, and in a way Kylo is the embodiment of that miasma of uncertainty everyone feels. A lot of people want to escape that uncertainty into things like the Kardasians. Kylo drags some of those folks back when they don't want to be dragged.

@SoloSideCousin - this is a brilliant post. And I think it's not only guys who are scared to see a character embody their unacknowledged insecurities. A lot of women too seem threatened by someone who doesn't fit a comfortable stereotype, to whom they can respond in a comfortable, stereotyped way.

Interesting discussion and maybe how people react to the character depends on where you fall on the Justice versus Mercy spectrum. Which is a far more complex concept than I could probably do justice (ha ha) to*. Being a punk freak (h/t @slade), I fall on the Mercy side of things, which isn't always the easiest route. And from the spoilers, it sounds like that might be the direction that the story is going with, Justice versus Mercy in regards to his relationship to Rey. He seems more intent on Justice for whatever perceived wrongs while she's clearly more about Mercy. There has to be a balance (cough) of both. Ideally whatever's planned for their relationship dovetails his issues with trauma/sin/mental illness/abuse with her issues of abandonment/poverty. Although that may be asking too much nuance a blockbuster movie! I do think it's interesting that some viewers feel that the screams which draw her into the initial vision aren't just her own memories of being abandoned. That some of it sounds like another child, so it's possible she's also hearing him cry out in fear (and being ignored by his parents) at the moment when he was first attacked by Snoke as a small child.

* there's the tiniest bit of Catholicism in my background, but I was raised straight up according to John Wesley's principles. Methodists are hardcore, yo (Softness and needless self-indulgence are big no-nos), but they're also pretty big on the principles of Good Works.

Last edited by snufkin on Fri 27 May 2016, 11:46 am; edited 2 times in total

@Slade wrote:(on the subject of different types of people in the US, a lot of people in other countries don't quite realize just how big the country is. We have micro-cultures (I totally made that word up) in different regions and cities that can differ quite a bit.

And oh boy, yeah. It's hard enough for different cultures here in the US to sometimes understand and co-exist with each other, let alone make ourselves understood as a plurality to other cultures/nationalities. Hell as a Californian, we are a group of micro-cultures and regions which frequently don't understand or get along with each other (Google "The State of Jefferson" as an example)

Adam Driver is absolutely the best thing about Girls (though Jessa is pretty cool, too). Lol, regarding the season finale that just recently showed, where Adam and Jessa tore up their apartment, I like to joke that Kasdan called up Lena Dunham and said, "Hey, Lena, can you let Adam wreck something and throw a total hissy fit so that he will stay on point for Kylo while he's in New York finishing up Girls?"

(I'm falling out laughing) No, I am not Republican! OMG! I'm threatening to expatriate if Trump wins...I'm a fairly liberal Goth pagan freak who has been around the proverbial block a few times. A friend of mine once described it like this: "when you have a (figurative) high-caliber weapon pointed at your head and the person holding it is saying 'think or die!', you darn well start thinking hard about the world you live in." I guess that explains it.

OMG! Have I actually found somebody on the board who likes Adam and Jessa together?!!! Adam is without question my favorite person on the show, followed by Jessa, then Ray, Eli and Shoshanna. Most people are big Adam/Hannah fans here. I'm not. I don't know if it's because I binged watched it after the TFA or what, but I was so excited that my two faves were getting together this season. Of course, they had to blow up that relationship in a kind of out-of-nowhere/rushed fashion to get to the big dramatic season finale ... which I didn't love ... but that's a rant for another time. But I still like them together despite the ruining of the apartment. They are very real and honest with each other. I saw a lot less of both with Adam and Hannah ... but I'll go hide now . :-)

@snufkin wrote:Interesting discussion and maybe how people react to the character depends on where you fall on the Justice versus Mercy spectrum. Which is a far more complex concept than I could probably do justice (ha ha) to*. Being a punk freak (h/t @slade), I fall on the Mercy side of things, which isn't always the easiest route. And from the spoilers, it sounds like that might be the direction that the story is going with, Justice versus Mercy in regards to his relationship to Rey. He seems more intent on Justice for whatever perceived wrongs while she's clearly more about Mercy. There has to be a balance (cough) of both. Ideally whatever's planned for their relationship dovetails his issues with trauma/sin/mental illness/abuse with her issues of abandonment/poverty. Although that may be asking too much nuance a blockbuster movie! I do think it's interesting that some viewers feel that the screams which draw her into the initial vision aren't just her own memories of being abandoned. That some of it sounds like another child, so it's possible she's also hearing him cry out in fear (and being ignored by his parents) at the moment when he was first attacked by Snoke as a small child.

* there's the tiniest bit of Catholicism in my background, but I was raised straight up according to John Wesley's principles. Methodists are hardcore, yo (Softness and needless self-indulgence are big no-nos), but they're also pretty big on the principles of Good Works.

I was raised as a Catholic too but I'd never thought a different sort of Christian approach might explain many American's focus on free wiil, respossbility for one's actions and the need for justice set above another principle I consider unrenounceable, that of Mercy, compassion and second chances.

There are also Catholics in Europe whose idea of God is very much that of a God of justice, but I think that approach where retribution is more important than mercy is dangerous because it invites sinners to stay in the dark side of life. What's the point of struggling against one's shadows once a person has fallen if they will only get their redemption after death? That encourages criminals and troubled people to remain in the dark.

This is what Kylo thinks in TFA when he says it's too late. He probably thinks after the things he has done he is iirredimably evil, perhaps he's thought he's bad for as long as he can remember. Perhaps he did something as a kid that made him believe he will never be forgiven and only belongs in the DS.

For some people Kylo is uncomfortable because it's easier to believe people who kill are just evil and should be put in jail for ever or executed because there's no way back after certain crimes. It's better to believe we would never in a million years do anything horrible and those who do must be rotten apples that should be taken away from society for ever. But it isn't always so easy, there are circumstances, like war, for instance, in which " normal" people who could have lived their whole lives without committing a crime do terrible things that mark them for ever and damage others.

Kylo makes people think and some people prefer not to weigh the importance of justice and mercy in the balance of their worldviews, or consider that some have been born under unfortunate circumstances and can't be compared to us who have grown up in better environments.

I don't agree with the idea that Rey and Finn had terrible childhoods and didn't choose to become murderers like Kylo, which means he doesn't deserve compassion, because that's an oversimplification that doesn't work for TFA and doesn't work in the real world either. People who made bad choices don't always have real chances and the lack of empathy and compassion is not a value in itself but rather the opposite.

Of course it's human to feel wronged and and we all need a sense of justice and to be able to feel safe in our lives, but as you've said above, balance is the answer, it's not easy or comfortable, sometimes it isn't even possible but it's the right path to pursue.

Last edited by Reynak on Fri 27 May 2016, 5:37 pm; edited 2 times in total

@snufkin wrote:Interesting discussion and maybe how people react to the character depends on where you fall on the Justice versus Mercy spectrum. Which is a far more complex concept than I could probably do justice (ha ha) to*. Being a punk freak (h/t @slade), I fall on the Mercy side of things, which isn't always the easiest route. And from the spoilers, it sounds like that might be the direction that the story is going with, Justice versus Mercy in regards to his relationship to Rey. He seems more intent on Justice for whatever perceived wrongs while she's clearly more about Mercy. There has to be a balance (cough) of both. Ideally whatever's planned for their relationship dovetails his issues with trauma/sin/mental illness/abuse with her issues of abandonment/poverty. Although that may be asking too much nuance a blockbuster movie! I do think it's interesting that some viewers feel that the screams which draw her into the initial vision aren't just her own memories of being abandoned. That some of it sounds like another child, so it's possible she's also hearing him cry out in fear (and being ignored by his parents) at the moment when he was first attacked by Snoke as a small child.

* there's the tiniest bit of Catholicism in my background, but I was raised straight up according to John Wesley's principles. Methodists are hardcore, yo (Softness and needless self-indulgence are big no-nos), but they're also pretty big on the principles of Good Works.

I was raised as a Catholic too but I'd never thought a different sort of Christianideas approach might explain many American's focus on free wiil, respossbility for one's actions and the need for justice set above another principle I consider unrenounceable, that of Mercy, compassion and second chances.

There are also Catholics in Europe whose idea of God is very much that of a God of justice, but I think that approach where retribution is more important than mercy is dangerous because it invites sinners to stay in the dark side of life. What's the point of struggling against one's shadows once a person has fallen if they will only get their redemption after death? That encourages criminals and troubled people to remain in the dark.

This is what Kylo thinks in TFA when he says it's too late. He probably thinks after the things he has done he is iirredimably evil, perhaps he's thought he's bad for as long as he can remember. Perhaps he did something as a kid that made him believe he will never be forgiven and only belongs in the DS.

For some people Kylo is uncomfortable because it's easier to believe people who kill are just evil and should be put in jail for ever or executed because there's no way back after certain crimes. It's better to believe we would never in a million years do anything horrible and those who do must be rotten apples that should be taken away from society for ever. But it isn't always so easy, there are circumstances, like war, for instance, in which " normal" people who could have lived their whole lives without commiting a crime do terrible things that mark them for ever and damage others.

Kylo makes people think and some people prefer not to weigh the importance of justice and mercy in the balance of their worldviews, or consider that some have been born under unfortunate circumstances and can't be compared to us who have grown up in better environments.

I don't agree with the idea that Rey and Finn had terrible childhoods and didn't choose to become murderers like Kylo, which means he doesn't deserve compassion, because that's an oversimplification that doesn't work for TFA and doesn't work in the real world either. People who made bad choices don't always have real chances and the lack of empathy and compassion is not a value in itself but rather the opposite.

Of course it's human to feel wronged and and we all need a sense of justice and be able to feel safe in our lives, but as you've said above, balance is the answer, it's not easy or comfortable, sometimes it isn't even possible but it's the right path to pursue.

Retribution probably is the more correct term for what a lot of the "he's awful and should die for what he did to Han" crowd are feeling. And probably what Rey was feeling when she went full on after him. It's a visceral, very personal feeling. Although stopping short of killing him is a step towards Mercy, which is what Han showed in that final gesture. And despite whatever darkness she has in her and how much comes out in the next round, a lot of who she is points towards somebody who believes in that concept. At some point it has to come out everything that happened to him which led to his Fall and it's possible that having her as a foil will show him that there is still Mercy possible, even for somebody like him. Which seems like a good message to have for a film intended for families to watch together after Christmas dinner.

@snufkin wrote:Interesting discussion and maybe how people react to the character depends on where you fall on the Justice versus Mercy spectrum. Which is a far more complex concept than I could probably do justice (ha ha) to*. Being a punk freak (h/t @slade), I fall on the Mercy side of things, which isn't always the easiest route. And from the spoilers, it sounds like that might be the direction that the story is going with, Justice versus Mercy in regards to his relationship to Rey. He seems more intent on Justice for whatever perceived wrongs while she's clearly more about Mercy. There has to be a balance (cough) of both. Ideally whatever's planned for their relationship dovetails his issues with trauma/sin/mental illness/abuse with her issues of abandonment/poverty. Although that may be asking too much nuance a blockbuster movie! I do think it's interesting that some viewers feel that the screams which draw her into the initial vision aren't just her own memories of being abandoned. That some of it sounds like another child, so it's possible she's also hearing him cry out in fear (and being ignored by his parents) at the moment when he was first attacked by Snoke as a small child.

* there's the tiniest bit of Catholicism in my background, but I was raised straight up according to John Wesley's principles. Methodists are hardcore, yo (Softness and needless self-indulgence are big no-nos), but they're also pretty big on the principles of Good Works.

I was raised as a Catholic too but I'd never thought a different sort of Christianideas approach might explain many American's focus on free wiil, respossbility for one's actions and the need for justice set above another principle I consider unrenounceable, that of Mercy, compassion and second chances.

There are also Catholics in Europe whose idea of God is very much that of a God of justice, but I think that approach where retribution is more important than mercy is dangerous because it invites sinners to stay in the dark side of life. What's the point of struggling against one's shadows once a person has fallen if they will only get their redemption after death? That encourages criminals and troubled people to remain in the dark.

This is what Kylo thinks in TFA when he says it's too late. He probably thinks after the things he has done he is iirredimably evil, perhaps he's thought he's bad for as long as he can remember. Perhaps he did something as a kid that made him believe he will never be forgiven and only belongs in the DS.

For some people Kylo is uncomfortable because it's easier to believe people who kill are just evil and should be put in jail for ever or executed because there's no way back after certain crimes. It's better to believe we would never in a million years do anything horrible and those who do must be rotten apples that should be taken away from society for ever. But it isn't always so easy, there are circumstances, like war, for instance, in which " normal" people who could have lived their whole lives without commiting a crime do terrible things that mark them for ever and damage others.

Kylo makes people think and some people prefer not to weigh the importance of justice and mercy in the balance of their worldviews, or consider that some have been born under unfortunate circumstances and can't be compared to us who have grown up in better environments.

I don't agree with the idea that Rey and Finn had terrible childhoods and didn't choose to become murderers like Kylo, which means he doesn't deserve compassion, because that's an oversimplification that doesn't work for TFA and doesn't work in the real world either. People who made bad choices don't always have real chances and the lack of empathy and compassion is not a value in itself but rather the opposite.

Of course it's human to feel wronged and and we all need a sense of justice and be able to feel safe in our lives, but as you've said above, balance is the answer, it's not easy or comfortable, sometimes it isn't even possible but it's the right path to pursue.

Fabulous stuff! As I mentioned in an earlier post, Kylo is making me rethink my own hard-line stance, but only to a degree, because I see a huge difference between Kylo's behavior and the behavior of, say, Ted Bundy, who I think got exactly what he deserved (for people who may not be familiar with the name, he was one of the worst serial killers in America. We never got a final victim count, but it is believed he killed 30+ women). I do think there are people who cannot be rehabilitated (I should probably disclose that I live in one of the most violent, dangerous cities in America, and I spend a lot of time reading about serial killers and sex offenders for my job and those things inform my worldview) and upon whom mercy would be wasted and even meaningless. Phrased differently, I think evil walks the Earth with human feet; I do think some people are irredeemably evil (I'll be happy to give you some examples, if you like (all public record). Just ask.) But Kylo is *nowhere near* being like those people. Kylo is exactly the type of person who could most benefit from mercy and compassion, which is what I think Rey will eventually show him.

I am bothered by how viciously he flung Rey into that tree, but I think perhaps he didn't intend it to be so violent. She had just pointed her blaster at him, so he was acting in self-defense, and given his physical and mental state, I think he viscerally overreacted. Someone somewhere pointed out that in footage from a different camera, it appears that as soon as he knocks Finn down and turns away, he appears to be walking towards Rey, perhaps to check on her, when Finn gets up and reengages him.

@Kylo Ren lol, I'm still trying to figure out the emoticons on this site and thought there might be a special high five emoticon or something! So High Five! backatcha, followed by a zagareet (high pitched "lalalalalalalalala!")