So, now there's this nifty results thing where I can see what GRE scores and GPA people had who got into various schools. This seems great, but I feel like it supports the notion that only GRE score and GPA are important criteria for grad school admissions (since nothing else is listed).

While I admit that it would be a lot of effort, and be a confidentiality problem to allow people to put thorough descriptions of their qualifications in the results section, I feel like, the way it's structured now supports the misconception that people on this site seem to have; that GRE scores are one of the most important factors in graduate admissions.

I have also noticed a lot of people saying things like 'international students need uber-high GRE scores to get into good schools' (pardon my paraphrasing), which is also untrue.

I am a foreigner, and got 860 physics GRE. I also got into all the programs I applied to (Berkeley, Caltech, Stanford, Princeton, and others). So, there's at least one instance of a foreign student with mediocre scores getting into good places (and one counterexample is enough to disprove the statement "all foreigners need a 990 to get into top schools").

This should highlight the fact that there's more to a grad school application than just numbers. Please stop telling foreign students they have no chance if they don't have a super high GRE score.

imho 860 is a great gre score, ofcourse the foreigner 990 thing is just silly..I am also an intenational student and have a couple of acceptances at 770, but I think the fact that I am doing my BS in the US might have helped...

I think the results page shows a lot of diversity, actually. Look at all the applicants from the "700 club" that got into schools. Looking at the applicant profile thread shows even more diversity, since there are people who published and some who didn't, some with research experience and some with none, etc.

Just to kind of throw this in there, kind of helping to show that GRE scores are not all...

I've been rejected a lot. But I have gotten into 3 schools. And while Washington State and Northeastern don't have the big name recognition as others, you can get a solid education at either. And I got into Stony Brook, which is a fairly big name physics program. With a 590 GRE score!

Samual_Adams wrote:While I admit that it would be a lot of effort, and be a confidentiality problem to allow people to put thorough descriptions of their qualifications in the results section, I feel like, the way it's structured now supports the misconception that people on this site seem to have; that GRE scores are one of the most important factors in graduate admissions.

Looking back at the results section, it stuck me that GRE scores correlated pretty well with grad school acceptances (once adjusted for gender, domestic/international, etc.) There are some confusing factors -- strong students probably do better on the GRE than weak students. Still, I think it's hard to deny that GRE scores don't carry a fair amount of weight in the admissions process. (Of course, some people did "better" than their score -- but it seems that these were exceptions, not the rule).

Samual_Adams wrote:I have also noticed a lot of people saying things like 'international students need uber-high GRE scores to get into good schools' (pardon my paraphrasing), which is also untrue.

It's certainly untrue to say that all international students need 990s, but all evidence indicates that international students need higher GRE scores. For example, at U Colorado, the average score for accepted international students is 60 points higher than for domestic students. The gap at UC scores may be even more because of their funding rules.

The other thing to note is that I don't think anyone is telling foreign students that they have no chance without a 990, but just informing them of the very real situation that it can be harder for internationals to stand out. Obviously no one is guaranteed a spot at a top university, but they are extremely competitive, and if you want to make your odds better than a crapshoot, you do have to do well. Someone might get into Harvard with a 340 on the PGRE. That doesn't make it the rule.

People come here for advice. That advice may not always be good, but "work harder!" is never ever wrong. Unless someone is on a train, where if they work harder it crashes into a bus with Keanu Reeves on it, but those people have better things to do than ask for advice here, and it's not even relevant to the discussion, really.

As for me, I'm not going to stop telling anyone that they don't need to worry about their GRE score; it's empirically evident that foreign students (from foreign undergraduate institutions that don't have an international reputation) have a harder time, but I like having them here, so they deserve the truth.

grae313 wrote:It depends on what kind of "foreigner" you are. I think the idea that you need 950 + is for chinese and indian applicants mostly... People that don't speak english well.

What a pathetic and stupid comment!

That was a summary of direct quotes from every grad school physics professor who has ever posted anything on the internet about the physics GRE and foreign admissions. So what, tell me, is stupid and pathetic about my comment?

will wrote:it's empirically evident that foreign students (from foreign undergraduate institutions that don't have an international reputation) have a harder time, but I like having them here, so they deserve the truth.

Here, will is saying something very similar to what I said, only in more politically correct language.

I don't think it's right, I don't think it's fair, it's just the way it is and so I said it. The same physics prof's blog has been linked to many times here, where he specifically says it is difficult to judge applicants from non-English speaking counties where they don't know the undergrad institution, and India is a *** powerhouse and there are just too many qualified students with 990 PGRE scores coming out of that country. So again, please tell me what is pathetic and ignorant about my comment. I would love some constructive criticism here, instead of just flinging insults. Thanks.

Samual_Adams wrote:This should highlight the fact that there's more to a grad school application than just numbers. Please stop telling foreign students they have no chance if they don't have a super high GRE score.

Two comments. Well, one question and one comment:

?) Does the results section distinguish between international students who did undergrad in the US and those who didn't? Because so far it seems like international students who do US undergrad are not judged as strictly on PGRE as internationals who did their undergrad in a foreign institution

!) The ones who we say have no chance without a really high PGRE score are the ones who come here and ask us to tell them what their chances are for getting into MIT or Harvard with an OK gpa and no research experience, and ask us in very poor English.

grae313 wrote:I'm extremely liberal politically, half of my family is gay, half of my family is jewish, my boyfriend is hispanic, my boyfriend before him was philippino, and one of my best friends is indian, and another is chinese.

It seems like jburkart got the biggest screw in terms of admissions. It also becomes obvious that PGRE have the largest correlation with success more so than UGPA. Goes to show one day is going to determine choices in your life.

grae313 wrote:It depends on what kind of "foreigner" you are. I think the idea that you need 950 + is for chinese and indian applicants mostly... People that don't speak english well.

What a pathetic and stupid comment!

That was a summary of direct quotes from every grad school physics professor who has ever posted anything on the internet about the physics GRE and foreign admissions. So what, tell me, is stupid and pathetic about my comment?

[/quote]

Would you care to present evidence to justify your claim that doing well in the subject GRE has anything to do with english speaking skills in the country in question?? It may stand to reason that a person from country X needs higher PGRE scores because lots of people there score high on the PGRE or because s/he is from an college that is not well known to the adcom. However, a claim that needing a higher score on PGRE has to do with english speaking skills of that country...

By the way, I strongly agree with Will's comments and sharply disagree with yours. Please do not try to defend your comment by trying to liken it to a sensible comment by another person.

Last edited by excel on Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

grae313 wrote:The same physics prof's blog has been linked to many times here, where he specifically says it is difficult to judge applicants from non-English speaking counties where they don't know the undergrad institution.

In this and the previous post (the one I called stupid), do you mean to imply that "Non-English speaking" population => not well-known undergrad institution ?? Do you think all the well-known universities are located only in countries that speak English???

The IITs of India, the Tsinghua University and the Peking University of China, etc. are all very well-known institutions, though located in "on-English speaking" countries.

@anyone who is now offended: Pleeease don't accuse me of racism, I can't speak more than one language and I don't hold it against anyone, I just try to relay the facts. I'm not afraid of calling apples apples, even if the PC nazis are out to get me. I'm extremely liberal politically, half of my family is gay, half of my family is jewish, my boyfriend is hispanic, my boyfriend before him was philippino, and one of my best friends is indian, and another is chinese.

What you say is what you say. It does not matter whether you claim to be "liberal politically" or whether you have Indian & Chinese friends. I find this comment to be nothing more than a political attempt to gain immunity from criticism for some of your comments. If your comment is racist, then it is racist. Just as...if a student with excellent credentials say something stupid, then that comment is stupid, irrespective of how strong his/ her credentials are.

By the way, in case you do not appreciate the difference, calling a comment stupid is not the same as calling the commentator stupid. In my previous post, I had called your comment (and not you) pathetic and stupid. Of course, I may (or may not) think that you are stupid and pathetic too.

The comment was stupid because it was illogical!! Physics gre is supposed to test a student's apptitude in "physics" and not his/her command over english!! there is no correlation between being bad at english and doing bad in pgre. For judging foriengers' english, US has tofel!! Infact many US universities have a very strict tofel cutoff !! If a foriegner's tofel score is below the cuttof the application maybe rejected straightaway

The only reason international applicants need higher PGRE scores is because there are so many applicants and US (I repeat) US universities cannot or should not be composed of a majority of foreign students. There are graduate schools in foreign countries. There is also the fact that most graduate students work as a TA first year and a US applicant really does on average make a better TA because there is not as much of a language barrier caused by an accent or grammar or just variations in language such as English from England being slightly different from English in the US. There is no incentive to admit a Majority of foreign applicants.

trupti wrote:The comment was stupid because it was illogical!! Physics gre is supposed to test a student's apptitude in "physics" and not his/her command over english!! there is no correlation between being bad at english and doing bad in pgre. For judging foriengers' english, US has tofel!! Infact many US universities have a very strict tofel cutoff !! If a foriegner's tofel score is below the cuttof the application maybe rejected straightaway

Ugh, okay it has become apparent that I typed my point very terribly. I did not mean to imply that correlation AT ALL!! Sorry.

ler1 wrote:There is also the fact that most graduate students work as a TA first year and a US applicant really does on average make a better TA because there is not as much of a language barrier caused by an accent or grammar or just variations in language such as English from England being slightly different from English in the US. There is no incentive to admit a Majority of foreign applicants.

Thanks. OK, let me clarify what I was trying to say with my original comment. First, I tried to say that students coming from countries like india and china tend need to need higher PGRE scores than students from say, canada and britain. Students from non-english speaking countries also tend to need higher PGRE scores.

In a subsequent post I then said india needs it because it is a powerhouse, and too many qualified and high-scoring applicants are coming out for the spaces available. An excellent score is needed just to stay competetive (again, I'm talking about MIT and Harvard applicants here).

I mentioned china, because The Ponderer or whatever he calls himself mentioned china specifically because he said it was difficult to weight these applicants at all, even if they did have a 990 PGRE, and it can be difficult to tell what you are going to get. The language skills become an issue when you need TAs, and so these applicants are admitted sparingly.

Of course there are well known institutions in non-english speaking countries. The students coming from those institutions have a leg-up. My post where I mentioned the lesser known institutions refers to the students coming from the lesser known institutions.

I apologize for typing my opinions poorly. I was late and I only wanted to type a quick sentence, but my judgment on what was sufficient to make my point was obviously lacking.

grae313 wrote:The same physics prof's blog has been linked to many times here, where he specifically says it is difficult to judge applicants from non-English speaking counties where they don't know the undergrad institution.

In this and the previous post (the one I called stupid), do you mean to imply that "Non-English speaking" population => not well-known undergrad institution ?? Do you think all the well-known universities are located only in countries that speak English???

NO and NO. That would be ridiculous.

You are all ready to jump on whatever I say, and interpret the words I write in the worst way possible. I said, applicants from non-English speaking countries where they don't know the undergrad institution. As in, those non-English speaking applicants from unknown undergrad institutions.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Wow, I sound just like RG All I was trying to say was that there was a difference in how an application from, say, canada or britain is viewed, and how an applicant from, say, lithuania is viewed. I don't like it but it's there. Any time anyone mentions a race or a country, people start getting their panties in a knot and screaming the "r" word. I'm sorry if I offend, but I was raised to believe that differences should be celebrated, and the elephant in the room should be acknowledged.

Defending myself has left me emotional exhausted. I feel like crying right now. In short, the rewards of this forum are not worth this experience I just had, so I don't think I'll be posting any more.

I am sorry you had to go through all that. I don't think there was anything wrong with your original statement (even before it was edited). I understood exactly what you meant. I think those who found the meaning unclear should have tried to understand before attacking you.

Wow, your series of has changed to a all of a sudden...For someone who claims to call apples apples etc. etc., I am surprised that you would want to leave after one of you comments was attacked...I should think that anyone who does not care to be "politically correct" would have to face attacks from time to time...even if s/he did not miscommunicate.

By the way, butsur..., we did not attack grae, we only attacked her comment --this difference is important to me at least. And, there was nothing unclear in that original comment. The comment carried a clear message...only it may not have been the message that grae meant it to carry. The original comment was disgusting, and such comments will and should always be challenged.

when you use words such as "pathetic" and "stupid", even when technically directed at a person's comment and not them personally, it is still insulting, and in most cases, will be taken personally.

The comment carried a clear message...only it may not have been the message that grae meant it to carry.

It seems to me that the comment wasn't very clear, since some people interpreted it to mean that there is a correlation between PGRE score and English ability, something which I definitely did not infer from her statement, and which she obviously never meant to imply.

butsurigakusha wrote:when you use words such as "pathetic" and "stupid", even when technically directed at a person's comment and not them personally, it is still insulting, and in most cases, will be taken personally.

The comment carried a clear message...only it may not have been the message that grae meant it to carry.

It seems to me that the comment wasn't very clear, since some people interpreted it to mean that there is a correlation between PGRE score and English ability, something which I definitely did not infer from her statement, and which she obviously never meant to imply.

I've got to agree completely with butsurigakusha on this. And "disgusting" should be included with "pathetic" and "stupid"

As a reminder, this is the original post: "It depends on what kind of "foreigner" you are. I think the idea that you need 950 + is for chinese and indian applicants mostly... People that don't speak english well." Everyone (will, trupti, myself) who said anything directly on this post before the clarification seem to get the same meaning on reading this post. And that post 100% deserves to be attacked with 0% concern for the writer's feelings. I will make a collection of all adjectives for this post: stupid, pathetic, illogical, disgusting (3 used by me, 2 by another--incl. one repeat). What's more, I will add another adjective to this list: nasty. Of course, none of the adjectives apply to grae because she did not mean what she said.

I understand that grae miscommunicated...it is hardly something I can complain about, given that I myself miscommunicate from time to time. To spare her feelings, I am willing to tone down my rhetoric on this, but not at the cost of letting such a post pass by as if there was nothing seriously wrong with it...with people piling on the "sympathy votes".

grae313 wrote:Defending myself has left me emotional exhausted. I feel like crying right now. In short, the rewards of this forum are not worth this experience I just had, so I don't think I'll be posting any more.

I've felt the same way before on this site. It comes from both sides. I've had to take a few breaks from the forum.

butsurigakusha wrote:when you use words such as "pathetic" and "stupid", even when technically directed at a person's comment and not them personally, it is still insulting, and in most cases, will be taken personally.

Refering to people as "PC nazis" or "PC nutballs" because they disagree with you is just as insulting as calling someone's comment "pathetic" and "stupid" when it is not well-written and therefore comes across as such.

excel wrote:...I should think that anyone who does not care to be "politically correct" would have to face attacks from time to time...even if s/he did not miscommunicate.

I agree. If you don't care about how your comments are going to affect other people, especially when you specifically said you are going to make the comments even though you knew people would be offended, maybe you should expect the response you got.

This should highlight the fact that there's more to a grad school application than just numbers. Please stop telling foreign students they have no chance if they don't have a super high GRE score.

I see what you're saying. They should apply, get rejected, but our departments will be funded partly through their application fees. Good idea. So everyone from China with a 430 PGRE and a 300 on the Verbal General please apply to as many US schools as possible.

twistor, your extreme examples are of no relevance to anything. Why don't you try responding to what people are saying instead of exaggerating it to ridiculousness? When someone comes back and says the advice on this site is incorrect, maybe we should listen to them.

Let me summarize: Foreigners don't need a 990 to get into US grad schools. Read the first post in this thread. The point is that if someone has a 700+ (especially 800+), then they will have a shot at getting in somewhere, so maybe we should offer advice to help them strengthen their application instead of killing their dreams.

Of course, everyone should balance their applications and apply to safety schools. Even domestic students with great GRE scores should.

I guess my main point is that I don't think grae313 should have had to defend herself simply for sharing what she thought, even if she is incorrect. There are plenty of forums (fora?) where people can argue and insult each other. The nice thing about this forum is that it is a place where people can come for advice and engage in intelligent, meaningful discussion. Can't a well-meaning contributor make a comment in an attempt to give helpful advice without fear of being attacked?

my two cents...I didn't see anything wrong with grae313's original post, it was pretty obvious what she was trying to say, of course if one wishes to construe something that isn't actually there, well whatever floats your boat...and I liked twistor's comment as it's amusing..For the record I am an int. student in the US and the grad phy. dept of my school has a lot of foreign students with 900+ pgre scores and below average english communication skills, they usually get consigned to grading rather than teaching assignments...

The fact that international students on average need to have higher pgre scores to get accepted has been discussed many times and is pretty well established and understood by most on this forum. It would be interesting to see those statistics broken down further, to see if there really is a higher standard expected for students from non-English speaking countries as compared to those who are from English speaking countries like Canada or Australia. Such statistics could validate or invalidate grae313's comment. I suspect there would be a difference.

Butsur.., I do not understand how your following two comments are compatible:

1) "It seems to me that the comment wasn't very clear, since some people interpreted it to mean that there is a correlation between PGRE score and English ability, something which I definitely did not infer from her statement,"

2)

butsurigakusha wrote:It would be interesting to see those statistics broken down further, to see if there really is a higher standard expected for students from non-English speaking countries as compared to those who are from English speaking countries like Canada or Australia. Such statistics could validate or invalidate grae313's comment. I suspect there would be a difference.

(I placed the bold in this quote.)In first comment, you seemed to most definitely understand that grae's comment never made the claim of a correlation between PGRE and English ability. In the 2nd comment, you seemed to be talking of validating grae's comment's claim of a correlation between PGRE and English ability. Did I understand you correctly? Did you change your mind about what grae's comment claimed? Would you care to explain to me what's going on here?

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that foreign students don't need (or tend to have) somewhat higher test scores than their US counterparts to get into top schools. I just think that this effect is exaggerated somewhat in the discussions on this site.

As such, people should be less quick to say things like "you need much higher scores if you're foreign". This isn't quite accurate, and it could be turning off some skilled foreign students.

Sorry to have incited such controversy.

Also, for the record, I go to a non-US school, in an english-speaking country.

This thread makes it clear to me that it is worthwhile to differentiate between international applicants. Currently I have listed International, Domestic, and the individual states in the US to choose from. Should we include a field where people can select their country? Perhaps we should have people choose by region instead?

butsurigakusha wrote:The nice thing about this forum is that it is a place where people can come for advice and engage in intelligent, meaningful discussion.

That's not my experience with this forum, but it would be great if it was always that kind of place.

butsurigakusha wrote:Can't a well-meaning contributor make a comment in an attempt to give helpful advice without fear of being attacked?

If someone is wrong, even if they are well-intentioned, people will say they are wrong. I think it's good that excel said he would rethink the way he phrases his comments. Hopefully, grae will too, and the forum will be a nicer place.

al-Haytham wrote:my two cents...I didn't see anything wrong with grae313's original post, it was pretty obvious what she was trying to say, of course if one wishes to construe something that isn't actually there, well whatever floats your boat...and I liked twistor's comment as it's amusing...

Not everyone has the same perspective you do or the same sense of humor, but that doesn't mean were intentionally lying to make your life difficult. Maybe there is actually some truth to the other points-of-view in the world.

Also, al-Haytham, according to the stats you posted from UT Austin (a top ten school), the average PGRE score for international students was ~860, so if there are many with 990s, there must also be some in the 800s and maybe even 700s. It's true we don't know what country they are from, but do you really feel like you know what the breakdown would be, or do you just assume something because of your personal bias? The point is that whatever the average is, it's definitely possible for int'l students to get in with <900.

Grant, I think it's a great idea to add a field where people can input their country. Not only will that give us an idea of the statistics, but also on what kind of profile can make up for having lower PGRE scores.

The point is that if someone has a 700+ (especially 800+), then they will have a shot at getting in somewhere, so maybe we should offer advice to help them strengthen their application instead of killing their dreams.

Foreigners with 700s and 800s have no shot at top schools. That's not killing anyone dreams. That's being realistic.

The point is that if someone has a 700+ (especially 800+), then they will have a shot at getting in somewhere, so maybe we should offer advice to help them strengthen their application instead of killing their dreams.

Foreigners with 700s and 800s have no shot at top schools. That's not killing anyone dreams. That's being realistic.

See above posts. The data just posted, as well as Samuel Adams case, proves that this is flat out an incorrect statement.

@excelI didn't interpret her statement to mean that there is a relationship between pgre score and English ability. I interpreted it to mean simply that applicants from non-English speaking countries are expected to have higher pgre scores to be competitive. Assuming that is what she meant, then such statistics would validate her comment. I can see how someone might interpret her comment differently.

There seems to be a fundamental miscommunication here. Let me see if I can word this in a way that is very clear.

Statistics seem to indicate that international applicants need to have higher pgre scores than domestic applicants to be competitive for admission. There is also reason to believe that among international applicants, this is more of an issue for those who are from non-English-speaking countries than it is for those from English-speaking countries.

I think that is essentially what grae313 was trying to say. I think this is a personally reasonable statement, but I do not know if it is true or not. It would be interesting to find some real statistical evidence of this, as opposed to anecdotal evidence. And even if this were shown to be true, it could be true for reasons unrelated to English speaking ability. I have heard plenty of possible explanations for this hypothetical discrepancy: prevalence of cheating among foreign students, foreign students spend more time preparing for the test, foreign students have more rigorous physics education, they don't have to take liberal arts classes, and so on.

Regardless of the explanation, if there is a higher expectation placed on foreign students from non-English speaking countries, then I think it is helpful for them to know that. And saying that an international applicant can't get in to a top school without a >900 is not much different than saying that a domestic student won't get in to MIT without a first-author publication. That is something that I would have appreciated knowing in advance, even if it is not technically true.

Last edited by butsurigakusha on Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.