Provided I become a Buddha, if the beings of the ten quarters who after having heard my name, and thus awakened their highest faith and aspiration of re-birth in that country of mine, even they have recollected such a thought for ten times only, they are destinated to be born there, with the exception of those who have committed the five deadly sins (Anantarya), and who have blasphemed the orthodox Law (Dharma), otherwise may I not attain the enlightenment.http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Amitabha% ... eight_vows

The Pure Land Sutras are prior to the Lotus Sutra and expedient teachings. Tthe Buddha Shakyamuni states he abandons them and preaches the One Vehicle.The Buddha Shakyamuni, the Eternal Buddha directs us to abandon these prior teachings:

Nosta wrote:Rory thanks for the link. I will read it as soon as possible.

Ryoto wrote:

rory wrote: If you belong to a Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, etc Pure Land tradition you will suffer rebirth if you fail to do nembutsu to samadhi on your deathbed.gasshoRory

I would rather go by what the Sutra says rather than what tradition says what. And the 18th Vow of Amida Buddha makes it quite clear that those who recite the Nembutsu just as little as 10 times will achieve birth. No where in the vows does it state deathbed recital, samadhi etc. is required. The vows are pretty straight forward. Honen was quite correct in rejecting deathbed practices as our liberation is dependent on Amida alone hence the focus on "other power"

Honestly i am confused with these somewhat opposite interpretations: some say that one can recite just a few times in life, others urge us to make it all the time and others advises us to practice until we can do it correctly right after death.

Anyway, i think that even the people who believes that 10 recitation during life is enough, will not loose anything if they recite also right after death. Its what i call, playing cautious.

Reciting the Nembutsu throughout one's lifetime is a really good thing as it keeps faith strong and one's mind focused. I guess the benefit of this is that you will be reborn in a higher level in the Pure Land while also maintaining precepts as encouraged by Honen. As compared to reciting only 10 times while keeping no precepts which will result in birth in the lowest level. Guaranteed according to the 18th Vow. This can be something very difficult to believe in for the western skeptical mind, but it really is that simple.

Rory, as stated famously there are 84000 Dharma doors. Each and every one of them contains a valid path towards liberation. It all comes down to personal preference as every individual is different and has his or her own personal needs.

'I know that the various multitudes of beings' natures and desires are not the same; their natures and desires not being the same, I variously preach the Dharma; variously preaching the Dharma by the power of expedience, for more than forty years I have never yet revealed the Truth; for this reason beings 'attainment of the Way has been varied: they have not yet been able to rapidly attain Supreme Bodhi.' (Sutra of Innumerable Meanings "Chapter of the Preaching the Dharma" 2:

'If there are beings who are able to hear this Sutra, then it is the Great Benefit for them. What is the reason? If they can practice it, they will necessarily be able rapidly to attain Supreme Bodhi. When there are those beings who are not able to hear it, one should know that for these it is losing the Great Benefit. Having passed through immeasurable, boundless inconceivable asamkheya kalpas, in the end they were not able to attain Supreme Bodhi. What is the reason? It was because they did not know the Great Direct Way of Bodhi, because they proceeded on the treacherous way with many hindering difficulties' 'I preach this Sutra, most profound, most profound; true and most profound. What is the reason? Because it causes the multitudes of beings rapidly to attain Supreme Bodhi, because having once heard they can keep all Dharmas, because to the multitudes of beings it is the Great Benefit, because they proceed on [or, practice] the Great Direct Way without hindering difficulties' (Sutra of Innumerable Meanings "Chapter of the Ten Merits

If you belong to a Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, etc Pure Land tradition you will suffer rebirth if you fail to do nembutsu to samadhi on your deathbed.

This is not true. There are many East Asian Pure Land Buddhists that give no heed to deathbed practices. Rightfully so as well since there is nothing relating to this in the Pure Land sutras. If anything, it was a lack of faith in the Pure Land sutras that led them to believe that one's consciousness at the moment of death had a postmortem effect (which can be found in early Buddhism). I'm sure you've read Jacqueline Stone's work on this.

rory wrote:Amida is not the most Compassionate: beings are excluded from his famous 18th vow Amida's 18th Vow 'onlyexcepting the Five Rebellious Sins and Blasphemy against theTrue Dharma.”

1. Whereas: Shakyamuni, the Eternal Buddha saves Everybody.

This is a misunderstanding as this is elaborated on in the Meditation Sutra:

The lowest level of the lowest grade: evildoers who commit the gravestoffenses, which would bring them the retribution of suffering in hell. Beforedeath they meet a good teacher, who urges them to call the Name of Amitābha.As they repeat the Name ten times, their evil karma is extinguished. When theydie they see before them golden lotus flowers that bring them to the Pure Land.After twelve great kalpas the flowers open; then they can hear the Mahayanateachings and awaken aspiration for enlightenment.

No one is left out in Amitabha's Pure Land.

2. The Lotus Sutra teaches us to abandon the former expedient teachings:

what has this to do with Shakyamuni's admonition that we abandon expedients and follow the One Vehicle?

Isn't it amazing how every sutta/sutra/tantra thinks they are the pinnacle of Buddhist teachings?

3. Common People can keep and follow the teaching of the Lotus Sutra!

Common people can follow the teachings of Pure Land too...incredibly easy, if not the easiest.

2. I said Jodo Shinshu - the biggest Japanese Pure Land sect, certainly the educated priests I met regarded the Pure Land as a metaphor & most of the Western practitioners here.

There are some that do, and some that don't. Eiken Kobai certainly doesn't...and he has quite the resume:

Eiken Kobai was born in 1941, the first son of Seiyo Kobai, the 16th-generation resident minister of Unsai Temple in the city of Ochiai, Oita Prefecture, Japan.He graduated from Ryukoku University’s Doctoral Program in Shinshu Studies in 1969 and from the Shugaku Institute, a postgraduate school maintained by the Hompa Hongwanji, in 1972.He received a grant to study at Kyoto University from 1971 to 1973. After a period as research associate at the Dendo Institute (now Jodo Shinshu Studies and Research Center), he is presently Professor of Shinshu Studies at Soai University in the city of Osaka. Professor Kobai is an ordained minister in the Hompa Hongwanji and a shikyo within that organization’s scholarly ranking system, the highest rank that can be earned.

@ rory:Mr. G is absolutely right, that Amida's compassion includes everyone as Shakyamuni teaches in the Meditation Sutra. And I hate to repeat myself, but it is just not true, that Shakyamuni rejected expedient means for everyone. In the Lotus Sutra Shakyamuni states: "If there be living beings who do not believe in it [the Lotus Sutra], do you show, teach, benefit, and rejoice them with the other [tactful] profound laws of the Tathagata." (Lotus Sutra, Chapter 22). For those, who have the capability to practice according to the Lotus Sutra, he advises to let go of other Sutras and just concentrate on the practice of the Lotus Sutra, but he explicitly confirms the use of expedient means, when people are not capable of the practice of the Lotus Sutra. That's why it never was a problem for Tiantai/Tendai Buddhism to regard the Lotus Sutra as the highest Sutra, but still practice nenbutsu, exoteric Buddhism and recite Sutras other than the Lotus Sutra. I agree, that there are practices based on the Lotus Sutra, that do not require samadhi just as there are Pure Land practices, that are efficient without reaching samadhi. But why does it have to be an exclusive practice? Why not practice both Pure Land Buddhism and recite the Lotus Sutra? In Tendai the practice in the morning consists of reciting parts of the Lotus Sutra (parts of chapter 2 and chapter 25) and the practice in the evening includes recitations of the nenbutsu, the title of the Lotus Sutra and chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra. This principle of asa daimoku yū nenbutsu (朝題目夕念仏 "Daimoku in the morning, nenbutsu in the evening") worked perfectly well for all practitioners of the Lotus Sutra until Nichiren taught to let go of all other Sutras (which is obviously against the teachings of the Lotus Sutra). If even great teachers such as Zhiyi, Saicho, Ennin, Genshin and many others were not capable of following only the Lotus Sutra and relied on other Sutras such as the three Pure Land Sutra, why should we, who are born even later after the death of the Buddha and do not have access to the Buddhist teachings as they had, be more capable of letting go of all expedient means?

There are passages in the Pure Land sutras that are amenable to the kind of position Tatsuo is presenting here. I think the Larger Sutra especially invites a comparison to the Lotus Sutra's parable of the Apparitional City: the Pure Land, like the Nirvana of the first turning, is a contrivance in which aspirants can take a rest, regroup, and carry on in a situation that is most appropriate to their needs.

When I have become a Buddha,My land shall be most exquisiteAnd its people wonderful and unexcelled;The seat of enlightenment will be supreme.My land, being like nirvana itself,Will be beyond comparison.I take pity on living beingsAnd resolve to save them all.

This is among the aspirations of Bikkshu Dharmakara.

My point is that Pure Land Buddhism makes a certain kind of sense if taken in the context of the Ekayana teachings generally: the eternal Buddha teaching and advancing beings through contrivances and particular situations. How this relates to the more specific question of Nichiren's understanding is beyond my ken.

"If there be living beings who do not believe in it [the Lotus Sutra], do you show, teach, benefit, and rejoice them with the other [tactful] profound laws of the Tathagata." (Lotus Sutra, Chapter 22).

Exactly! And you all believe in the Lotus Sutra! It is called the King of Sutras by all Mahayana followers. All Mahayana Buddhists follow its tenets;the one vehicle, EkayanaAll beings will become BuddhasFaith and devotion

So why don't you worship Shakaymuni Buddha the Eternal Buddha (ch.16)why don't you cast aside expedients (ch 2)why don't you practice it as all you need is the mind of following joy,” (The “Chapter of the Distribution of Merits” 17)

Jikan the sutra explicitly states that previous teachings were expedients that should be cast aside & this is the last major & most revered teaching of the Buddha. gasshoRory

rory wrote:Jikan the sutra explicitly states that previous teachings were expedients that should be cast aside & this is the last major & most revered teaching of the Buddha. gasshoRory

Yes, that's true. A follower of the Lotus Sutra does indeed regard the Ekayana teaching as the authoritative one, and the rest as contrivances. That's the doctrinal question; in practice, its meaning is debatable and the debates get complex in a hurry*. I'm thinking in terms of pedagogy, though. That is, I'm interested in exploring the question: how does the Buddha teach in the Lotus Sutra?

I'm suggesting that the Pure Land teachings are upaya, manifested by the enlightened ones to help those who would benefit from such a thing. I think this is consistent with the Lotus Sutra as well as the Pure Land sutras, although I'm willing to be corrected on this.

*here again, someone who is better informed than me can inform the discussion on Nichiren's specific views on how the Lotus Sutra is to be practiced.

This final & absolute teaching of Buddha Shakyamuni has an interesting and sustainable goal for one's spiritual practice, in Chapter XXVIII Encouragement of Universal Virtue it says:"If they only copy it, these when their life is ended will be born in the Heaven Trayastrimsa; on which occasion eighty-four thousand nymphs, performing all kinds of music, will come to wellcome them, and they, wearing seven-jeweled crowns, will joy and delight among those beautiful nymphs; how much more those who receive and keep, read and recite, rightly remenber it, comprehend its meaning, and practice it as preached!"

Aeimlius; why did you stop at the reward for those who merely copy the sutra?

As we continue;

"Universal Worthy, if after the passing of the Thus Come One, in the last five hundred years, you see a person who can receive, uphold, read, and recite the Dharma Flower Sutra, you should think, Before long, this person will go to the Way-place and destroy the demon hordes. He will attain anuttarasamyaksambodhi, turn the Dharma-wheel, beat upon the Dharma drum, blow the Dharma conch, let fall the Dharma rain, and soon sit on the Lion Dharma throne among the great hosts of gods and humans.

"Therefore, Universal Worthy, if one sees a person who receives and upholds this Sutra, one should welcome him from afar and revere him as one would the Buddha."Here is the link to the Lotus Sutra, chapter 28 and people can read it and decide for themselves:http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... otus28.htm

And if you don't achieve buddhahood in this life, then we are born in the Pure Land of Sacred Eagle Peak,Mt. Ryojuzen. The great Kegon teacher Myoe and the famous Hosso teacher Jokei, the scholar-poet Sugawara no Michizane aspired to be born there and taught it. (Stone, [i]Original Englightenment [i]p.293)

I do want to point out that the argument about discarding expedients goes back at least to the Muromachi period of Nichiren & Tendai monks debating (Stone, p. 307), the Tendai rejoinder was to use another reading for the character 'to discard'. I recommend J. Stone's "Original Enlightenment and the Transformation of Medieval Japanese Buddhism" a brilliant book, with so much to offer all of us.

The Tendai issue is about absolute vs. relative integration. (p308) for those with an interest. In terms of pedagogy, meaning what do people actually do. There's plenty, chanting the sutra, copying the sutra, chanting the title of the sutra, studying the sutra with commentaries, also there are plenty of easily understandable parables, reading and discussing texts about Tiantai philosophy, worshipping Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha, painting etc. We're not 13th century illiterate peasants, lucky us, we can really apply ourselves with joy to the best of our abilities.gasshoRory

rory wrote:Aeimlius; why did you stop at the reward for those who merely copy the sutra?

As we continue;

"Universal Worthy, if after the passing of the Thus Come One, in the last five hundred years, you see a person who can receive, uphold, read, and recite the Dharma Flower Sutra, you should think, Before long, this person will go to the Way-place and destroy the demon hordes. He will attain anuttarasamyaksambodhi, turn the Dharma-wheel, beat upon the Dharma drum, blow the Dharma conch, let fall the Dharma rain, and soon sit on the Lion Dharma throne among the great hosts of gods and humans.

"Therefore, Universal Worthy, if one sees a person who receives and upholds this Sutra, one should welcome him from afar and revere him as one would the Buddha."Here is the link to the Lotus Sutra, chapter 28 and people can read it and decide for themselves:http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... otus28.htm

And if you don't achieve buddhahood in this life, then we are born in the Pure Land of Sacred Eagle Peak,Mt. Ryojuzen. The great Kegon teacher Myoe and the famous Hosso teacher Jokei, the scholar-poet Sugawara no Michizane aspired to be born there and taught it. (Stone, [i]Original Englightenment [i]p.293)

That is another place in the Sutra you are refering to, what I mean is in the XXVI Chapter, fourth paragraph, in Kern's translation, which you can read here http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/lot26.htmTo get it straight you obviously have to purchase the Threefold Lotus Sutra of Bunno Kato, maybe also the other older translations like the ones of H. Kern and Leon Hurwitz. There is a comprehensive article about the different published translations of Lotus sutra in Readings of the Lotus Sutra, that contains valuable information about them.

Aemilius; yes I read it, the Kern Chapter 26 Encouragment of Samantabhadra (Universal Worthy Bodhisattva, Fugen), is Chapter 28 in Burton Watson, Senchu Murano, over at the Chinese site Buddhist door, every modern translation. The Kern translation is from 1884!

Now if you scroll down a few paragraphs from your quote you will find:"sees a monk keeping this Dharmaparyâya of the Lotus of the True Law, must think thus: This young man of good family will reach the terrace of enlightenment; this young man will conquer the troop of the wicked Mâra, move forward the wheel of the law, strike the drum of the law, blow the conch trumpet of the law, spread the rain of the law, and ascend the royal throne of the law. "http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/lot26.htm

Now in the Burton Watson,translation of the same paragraph:if you see someone who accepts, upholds reads, and recites the Lotus Sutra, you should think to yourself: Before long this person will proceed to the place of practice, conquer the devil hosts, and attain anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. He will turn the wheel of the Dharma, beat the Dharma drum, and sound the Dharma conch, and rain down the Dharma rain. He is worthy to sit in the lion seat of the Dharma, amid the great assembly of heavenly and human beings. http://news.fjnet.com/english/sutra/200 ... _30010.htm

Buddhist Door:you see a person who can receive, uphold, read, and recite the Dharma Flower Sutra, you should think, �Before long, this person will go to the Way-place and destroy the demon hordes. He will attain anuttarasamyaksambodhi, turn the Dharma-wheel, beat upon the Dharma drum, blow the Dharma conch, let fall the Dharma rain, and soon sit on the Lion Dharma throne among the great hosts of gods and humans.http://www.buddhistdoor.com/oldweb/reso ... otus28.htm

Senchu Murano translation : anyone

Not monk. Any person male or female who receives, upholds, reads & recites the Lotus Sutra will before long attain Supreme Complete Enlightenment.

I suggest you read more up-to-date scholarly translations. Senchu Murano of Nichiren Shu's translation of the Lotus Sutra is considered the best. But really aren't we today the equivalent of the average monks of the past; as we are literate, educated, and have the leisure time to study the Sutra! Let's appreciate our good fortune & make the effort to become Buddhas!gasshoRory

Yes the Kern translation is from 1884, and it has some things that have been abridged in later translations. It is therefore still valuable. I've read the Burton Watson translation a couple of times, I regard Leon Hurwitz's Lotus Blossom more elegant, and the Threefold Lotus Sutra is also more pleasant to read. It is a question of personal choice.There is no reason to be bashful about the Trayastrimsas, or to hide it.

rory wrote:"If there be living beings who do not believe in it [the Lotus Sutra], do you show, teach, benefit, and rejoice them with the other [tactful] profound laws of the Tathagata." (Lotus Sutra, Chapter 22).

Exactly! And you all believe in the Lotus Sutra! It is called the King of Sutras by all Mahayana followers. All Mahayana Buddhists follow its tenets;the one vehicle, EkayanaAll beings will become BuddhasFaith and devotion

So why don't you worship Shakaymuni Buddha the Eternal Buddha (ch.16)why don't you cast aside expedients (ch 2)why don't you practice it as all you need is the mind of following joy,” (The “Chapter of the Distribution of Merits” 17)

Jikan the sutra explicitly states that previous teachings were expedients that should be cast aside & this is the last major & most revered teaching of the Buddha. gasshoRory

MY REPLY:hey sorry im new to this site so i need to get used to the format.the qoute from (lotus sutra chapter 22)(use other sutras for people who dont except of have the compacity to accept the LS)refutes the idea that you are to abandon the other sutras it also refutes your "interpretation" of "casting aside exipedients in chapter 2.in chapter 2 when the Buddha said "he would honestly discard expedient means and now preach the unsurpassed way" he was simply stateing he wasnt going to teach in examples but was going to tel you straight up what the law is.i'll give you and EXAMPLE im not going to tell u its red,round,and tastes good and it has seeds in it instead of telling you by EXPEDIENT means what it is i will tell youwhat it is without useing expedient menas(discarding them) sir its a apple.to futther prove thisread the next pages(im useing burton watson translation)the last page on page 46 it states (the law of the Buddha is like this)this is where the law was flat out told without expedient means,now read the next chapter THEY DANCE WITH JOY for they heard the law in TRUTH they didnt hear the law they only hear the BENIFITS OF THE LAW,why is this?(LS expedient mean chapt 2 page 25)(this law cannot be described words fall silent before it among the othert kinds of living beings there are NONE who can comphrehend it)my brother we cannot comphrehend the law we can ONLY comprehend the BENIFITS of this won derful law.read page 24 of chapt 2 now "the true entity of all phenomena can ONLY be understood and shared BETWEEN buddhas" and "among alll living beings NONE can understand the Buddha"which is why we CAN ONLY ENTER THE SUTRA IN FAITH to further prove thispage 31 chap 2 "this law is not something that can be understood through pondering or analysis ONLY those who are Buddhas can understand it"

the Buddha discared his expedeitn means and told us the law is ultamate and the benifits of this law other than that we couldnt understand it without expedient means(we are not Buddhas)LS chapt 2 page 46 "the law is like this EMPLOYING TEN THOUSAND,A MILLION EXPEDIENT MEANS<THEY ACCORD WITH WHAT IS APPROPRIATE IN PREACHING THE LAW)

we all worship the eternal Budha,amida,sakyamini,vairocana,buddha burning light ALL BUDDHAS ARE THE ETERNAL BUDDHA,want further proof?chapt 16 LS page 226 (I appear in different place and preach to them under DIFFERNT NAMES"LS phantom city page 135"I AT that time will be a Buddha in a differnt land and will be known by a DIFFENTR NAMELS chapt 2 page 36 "hopeing to make AL persons EQUAL TO ME WITHOUT DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN US,their are no distinctions between Budhas ALL ARE ETERNAL BUDDHA they are enlighitened with the SAME RAIN that rains on all trees:)also i can give you like 6 verses in the lotus sutra that tells u to fol,ow the other sutras if you need them NEVER does the LS tell u to abandon all the sutras also if you try to use chapt 3 WHO ITS PERMISSIABLE TO TEACH as a reason to abondon the sutras i will easily refute this its not orders its a (TYPE) of person u are lokking for also if you wish to take tyhis as orders then u have to take the part where it says to not teach them if the have ANGER,or if they have EVER read into anouther relgion or philosophy as ORDERS and would mean NOBODY can be taught this sutraso remember LS chapt 3 page 79 PERSONS OF THIS TYPE not orders to abandon all sutras.

the Lotus sutra NEVER tells you to abandon all the other sutras(burton watson translation)(page 109 chapt 6) "having attained great transendal powers and they will uphold and embrace the great vehicle sripture(S) of the Buddhas"

chapter 5 page 133 "now all of you should from time to time associate closely with them and offer them alms WHY?Beacause if any of you------------are able to take FAITh in the SUTRA TEACHINGS preached by these 16 bodhisattvas,and WILL ACCEPT and EMBRACE them and never disparage them then such a person will be able to attain anuttara-samyak-sambodhi the wisdom of the thus come one.NOW flip the page who are these 16 bodhisattvas we are to FOLLOW their sutras??? page 134 you will see AMITAYUS Buddha of the western paradise who teaches the lotus law and we are to follow(also note the 3 pureland sutras almost 1/3rd of the book can be found word for word in the lotus sutra)as if one was copied from the other.also the ls says the reasonn the Buddha came into the world is to expound the law also the larger sutra states that is the reason he came into the world to preach.(which is why it is the last sutra to be left in this world)

chapt 15 page 219 "these bodhisattvas have all been dwelling in the woprld of empty space underneath the saha world.they read and write and understand the VAIRIOUS SCRIPTURES ponder them make distinctions and keep them, corredctly in mind, these are the bodhisattvas of the earth who are to teach the lotus sutra to us all.

chapt 21 after the thus come one has passed into extinction this person will know the SUTRAS preached by the Buddha,theri causes and conditions and their prtoper sequence,and will preach them truthfully in accordance with the principle.

chapter 23 page287 people who have FAITH in the lotus sutra go to the pureland PEACE AND DELIGHT where AMITAYUS dwells so even the Lotus sutra ssupports one going to the pureland of amida Buddha.

their is not ONE single person that can practice the lotus sutra,the lotus sutra says it itself that ONLY a Buddha can understand the wonderful law of the Lotus and that we can ONLY enter the Lotus sutra in faith alone.