Town Square

Gov. Brown Does BART Management a Favor

For weeks BART management has waged a PR campaign in the corporate media which, in turn, has uncritically reproduced BART management's deceptive numbers without so much as a mention of how those numbers are contradicted by the more reliable numbers offered by BART's workers.

With this 60 day cooling off period, BART management, possessing far more resources than the unions, and with values interwoven with the corporate media, will continue to make their case to the public, thereby undermining BART workers' own modest demands for a well-deserved wage increase.

Although it may be fashionable for wealthy old fat guys in tight little-boy shirts to lie about BART workers -- and to do so in a cowardly way that closes off readers' challenges -- the facts continue to speak for themselves. The offer management has extended to BART workers is a joke. It amounts to a pay cut at a time when corporate profits are skyrocketing through the roof but with nary a dime left for workers to struggle over. If workers were to treat the joke seriously, it would leave them earning less money in 2017 than they were earning nine years previously.

The 60 day cooling off period will not only further aid BART management's PR campaign, but it will also enable further corporate influence to be leveraged upon Gov. Brown. For corporations will indeed be inconvenienced by a strike. They will now have 60 additional days to spend millions upon millions in lobbying efforts in order to bring the Governor into line with a status quo that allows corporations to function without impediment.

Here is where the fascist content of corporate America rears its ugly head in a visible manner. We get a better view of how the stated differences between the state and the corporations it serves are overblown -- simply ruses to further the ambitions of corporate America against the American people. In short, when a conflict arises between workers and the extant power structure, Republicans and Democrats alike genuflect before the wishes of corporate power in America.

Brown won't do anything to upset the status quo in America because so doing would disrupt the everyday workings of corporate America. Fat, deceitful, old wealthy white guys can lie about BART workers not having a college degree all they want to; but this isn't what the strike threat is about. It is about corporations getting their own way: paying low taxes for a public transportation system that carries its workers to and from work. The system needs improvement? Blame the workers! The system is obsolete? Blame the workers! The region needs more revenues to provide basis services to the public? Blame the workers!

You'll not see this view in the media, because the media's corporate interests are at one with those of all major corporations. You'll see Brown do everything in his power to ensure that a strike does not occur. This MAY mean paying workers what they are worth. A lot hinges on just how courageous the workers will be in the face of the extraordinary, monolithic opposition that is aligned against them. Let's hope that BART workers will remain defiantly courageous as the sage continues. Their victory is a victory for all American workers.

Viva BART Workers! Viva all American workers!!!

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Posted by Bright Corners of Town
a resident of Foothill Place
on Aug 13, 2013 at 9:18 am

I do enjoy your posts much more than the Rush-Limbaugh-lite (hmm...maybe "lite" isn't the best term here) drivel written by that other guy.

Ah, gee whiz, now Mikey is saying that both Democrats & Republicans, and all of the media is aligned against this poor little union. Give it up Mikey. Your long dissertation speaks of your own little union mind with absolutely no figures or facts to back up anything you have said. But of course, you could always quote the union "rag" which according to you is the only valid source of information in this entire discussion. The Only Child Syndrome strikes again from Mikey.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 13, 2013 at 11:57 am

Dear JTR, or should I say Dear Dave?

I don't work for BART, and for you to assume I do given what I've written reveals more about your own cognitive limitations than it does about what I've written.

I'm an American worker, no different than most American workers. I try not to allow myself to become mesmerized by the swill that corporate media -- t.v., radio, ads, mags, newspaper rags, movies -- is offering up on a daily basis. It sounds like you're happy to feed at the trough. Hope you find that swill you're gobbling down to your liking.

The way you rattle off all the 'facts' on the bart union shows you are very close to the issue and have all the union talking points. The fact that you cannot even see the other side also shows your closeness. However, I see I touched a sore spot by seeing your attacking reply full of hate. I see people who present facts and you cannot counter the facts but instead just reply with hate. So sorry to see you are such an unhappy person. You are also the first person who I have seen call tv, radio, ad, mag, newspaper rags, and movies all corporate media. Wow!

Upon reading your posts I have been trying to figure out if you are part of the bart union, or if you are so much against the bart union and you write posts that push people even further away from the views of the bart union with your extremist views.

I do thank you, either way, for helping elucidate the uncompromising views of the unions. I am sure that for people who were on the fence, you have done a great service to move their thoughts over to the side of management. Thank you for your public service.

Ah, come on "Love", check some of the previous postings regarding the BART strike and you can find many, many links to "facts" regarding the union's unreasonable demands. Presenting validated facts doesn't quite measure up to "hate".

Good thing mikie has cholo in his corner. I suppose day laborers can earn no higher praise. Mikie, it's time to come out of your basement in Berserkely and step out into the light. You provide no facts or stats to back up your claims, you are very emotional, bordering on psychotic, and you claim you don't work for BART. So, what exactly is your problem? Unhappy union rep., after realizing your ranks are diminishing and irrelevant?

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 14, 2013 at 5:39 am

JTR,
I'm not surprised that you haven't heard the corporate media described as such until now. For the corporate media isn't in the business of revealing who owns and controls it, and to advance what corporate ends.

Of course, when you say you haven't heard of the 'corporate media' before, you're also revealing your own ignorance. Had you read anything outside the corporate-financed, right-wing echo machine, you'd know that social, political, and media researchers have been using the term for at least two decades. See, for example, the writings of Noam Chomsky, Ed Hermann, or Robert McChesney.

Your ignorance also helps explain why you have nothing of substance to offer the conversation.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 14, 2013 at 7:28 am

The corporate media have provided only the distorted 'facts' that have been provided by BART management. The corporate media have not investigated whether management's 'facts' are deceitful or not.

Unions have presented their own facts. The corporate media has not presented these to its readers.

Now, if the unions' facts have been invalid, there'd very much be a story in that for corporate media reporters who always are looking for a scoop. But, guess what? No stories have been printed about the unions' 'misuse' of facts. Why? Because the unions' facts have not been misused at all. In fact, they are spot-on accurate.

It is painfully funny to observe corporate media writing stories without taking into account the actual facts. If they present the unions' accurate facts, then they're going to have to reveal how deceptive have been management's misuses. Better to simply ignore the unions' facts.

Doofusses like Dave drink up all the corporate supplied misinformation and then get all confused when presented with accurate information, facts. And there he stands, confusion upon confusion upon confusion, so confused he can't even come to realize he's confused. Poor thing.

Kind of the reply that I expected from Mikie. Ask for his verifiable source of data and he can't produce. Oh well, continue to get irrelevant remarks that have no validity regarding the subject matter. I would ask (again) Mikie for his source and perhaps provide a link for the data. I'm sure there are others that would like to review the validated (by Mikie) data regarding the unions demands.
Speaking of irrelevant, Cholo, enough said!

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 14, 2013 at 10:14 amKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Mike doesn't provide facts or sites to support his information. And he starts new threads when losing the battle on previous threads. One might worry when your biggest supporter is Cholo. On the corporate news issue, wouldn't they then all look like the faux news station?

How could the media report the union side when the union side only says the other side is lying and they will not respond to direct questions?

In a previous thread "mm" posted some direct facts that he/she heard and asked you to respond and all you could do is say it is all a lie. You could not correct the facts presented. That leaves most of us believing the facts. Mike, you can do everybody a favor by telling us which of these items that mm posted are not facts, AND what the right numbers are. Saying it is all lies and not supporting that does not give you one ounce of credibility.

Here are the items that "mm" posted previously. Would be great to get Mike to respond to each one factually (and correct with the 'right' information) and without emotion but don't think it is possible:

The unions were offered a raise, and they have rejected it.

The unions have 100% taxpayer-funded defined benefit pensions

The unions have $92/month health insurance, no matter the size of the family or cost of the insurance

The unions work less than 40 hours a week (unless they also add in overtime).

The unions can call in 'sick' or take a vacation day and then work on their day off and get paid overtime

The unions can continue to receive the $92/month health insurance, even after they leave BART.

The unions still get step raises, which they fail to mention.

The unions are demanding that if they pay the 7% of the pension cost that BART pays them 6.5% more in salary. Essentially saying they will pay only 1/2%.

Sorry to say, but don't hold your breath, JTR, mikie won't be able,to form an intelligent or even coherent response to your request. It's quite possible that he is one of the union negotiators, hence the unions failure to settle on a contract.
Maybe cholo is one of his lawyers...apologies to all you lawyers out there.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 14, 2013 at 2:03 pm

The joke of an offer by Bart management is clear enough. Do the math. It amounts to a pay cut. In contrast, the workers are demanding a modest pay increase. Do the math. This is a no brainer, though dimwits like Dave, Timmy Hunt, and Queen Kathy refuse to think it through.

The unions have voiced their own demands, and they have provided clear enough info as to their average wage: $66K, not the $74K management has stated and corporate media have gobbled up and then spewed forth. If unions' demands are founded upon false numbers, then it would be in corporate media's interest to expose their falsity. Hasn't happened, because the unions' numbers are accurate; in attending to them, honestly, corporate media would have to expose falsity of management's numbers. So, corporate media simply ignores unions, and management's lies get regurgitated.

Haven't lost a battle yet, but rather must repeatedly expose Queen Kath as the silly goose she is and whose silliness is matched only by her laughable inability to realize it. Speaking of Kath, she apparently has difficulty seeing how corporate media are aligned on fundamental issues. Capitalism, for example. On this, there is fundamentally no difference between Fox and MSNBC. It's all faux news, Kath. Same advertisers, same ends -- to get viewers lathered up in the false idea that they partake of a democracy. If you want to read about WHY Kath and other closeted fascists express so many views in harmony with hate-based Dave, read Bertrand de Jouvenal's treatise On Propaganda.

Have any of my dimwit detractors offered a coherent argument against my position? No, small minds, all of them.

I usually don't link because I operate at a higher intellectual level than the lathered up dupes such as Dave/Kath. I appear to be one of the very few book readers on these sites. (See de Jouvenal.)

I initiated this site because Timmy the Tea-Shirt Hunt wrote yet another pathetic embrace of fascism, which called for an intelligent response. I do not use my real name because I am afraid of many of you who, I have no doubt, would attempt to seriously smear my name on the internet, or worse, if given the opportunity to do so.

Mikie, rather than making statements like "Although it may be fashionable for wealthy old fat guys in tight little-boy shirts to lie about BART workers -- and to do so in a cowardly way that closes off readers' challenges", why don't you learn how to become a registered member, than you could reply directly to Tim, rather than playing the spoiled little boy that couldn't. By the way, still looking for the source of your statement on union wages. Oh, also looking for an answer on the questions that JTR posed. Or can we expect more idiotic ramblings from Mikie. What a team, Cholo & Mikie!

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 14, 2013 at 3:35 pmKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Having a dismissive attitude does not mean you have won the day. The facts have been posted here and reported elsewhere. The contract, what the unions ask, what salaries and benefits are made are all public knowledge. The rest you post, as always and under many names, is blather.

Posted by JTR
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 14, 2013 at 4:06 pm

As expected, Mike cannot refute the claims in the statements that mm previously wrote. He can only make emotional statements and try and cut down anybody who is not of like mind as him.

Not going to hold my breath but maybe if we make the list shorter and present items that have absolutely no emotion to them, Mike can validate or correct, without emotion. I have reworded them slightly to take out any opinion in the statement, just a fact:

The union members have 100% taxpayer-funded defined benefit pensions

The union members have $92/month health insurance, no matter the size of the family or cost of the insurance

The union members work less than 40 hours a week (unless they also add in overtime).

The union members can call in sick or take a vacation day and then work on their day off and get paid overtime

The union members can continue to receive the $92/month health insurance, even after they leave BART.

The union members still get step raises.

I think the above sentences are formed in a way that are factual with no emotion. I seriously wanted Mike to let us know specifically what is wrong with these statements that the 'corporate media' is stating.

I also find no evidence of the average wage of $66K that he mentions instead of the $74K we read about. Even went to the BART union website and there was not mention of that.

The union chiefs want a strike and will do no negotiations until then. If you go to the bart union website, they have a countdown timer, down to the second, of when they will be going to strike. They cannot wait.

We need to remove the ability or transit workers to strike in California, like other states. Right now we are negotiating with a terrorist organization who are demanding money or they will bring BART to a halt and disrupt people getting to their jobs. No different than a group of terrorists blocking the bay bridge until they are paid off.

Thank you for your various posts Mike Cherry! As you can see some folks have their dander up.

Not to worry. Some of the posters will try to bang you with various tactics but all you gotta do is keep expressing your thoughtful opinions. You do not come across as out of touch with reality and you can count on some readers thinking twice about where they stand because of your stance.

In about a week I'll be on vacation in Donostia/Basque Country, Spain for 8 days and I can hardly wait! Then I'll board a ship to London for 3 days and return to California! Take good care of yourself and don't take some of the posters too seriously. If you don't post for 2-3 days, most will start fighting with each other!

Keep in mind that many posters are entitled because they attended college. Many of them are angry that fellow Americans who did not earn a college degree are not as entitled as they. They feel angry because they believe that they were duped. They were duped! There are millions of Americans who did not attend college/university and they have done quite well in this life. They are good, productive American citizens and they have a right to define what they want in this life and because many are members of unions, they can work together to work it out. It often infuriates non-unions workers!

Posted by JTR
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 14, 2013 at 8:34 pm

To Cholo Cherry,

Don't think you know your audience. But that is ok.

Some people do not have issues with unions. However this public employee union has had it too good for too long and is upset that their gravy train might not continue forever. A government agency will not go out of business. It will just raise rates/taxes and lower the service level. They really do not care if the customer is happy or not since it does affect their own life. Different than a private union in a company that can go out of business if the price is too high and/or the level of service goes down. That is because of competition.

If it makes you happy, I did not go to college but have been successful in my work life even without being in a union. My success is directly related to the amount of work I put into it. I have absolutely no sense of entitlement. I am not entitled to anything. I have to work harder if I want more. I pay social security taxes but honestly do not even think social security will be there for me when I need it so I put money aside for my retirement.

I think the salaries the bart workers receive are quite good especially if you calculate take-home, spending pay.

They hardly pay for health insurance so you can reduce that from the amount of money somebody needs to make in the bay area to survive.

They do not pay for social security or their pension so they have more take home pay.

Since they have a defined-benefit pension, they do not have to put money aside for retirement so that gives them more spending money.

Once they have seniority, they cannot be fired. They do not have to worry about future job loss so they do not have to put money aside to have 6 months or so of salary saved up to hold them over should they be laid off because it cannot happen so that gives them more take home pay.

When they say how much it costs to live in the bay area, that assumes somebody on social security, paying social security taxes, paying a much higher percentage for health insurance, having to save money in case their job goes away, having to put money aside for retirement. If you figure the bart union members do not have these expenses, they can actually live for less than the private worker in the bay area. Comparing apples to oranges if you do not have the same level of expenses.

The BART workers have it REAL GOOD right now. Asking for the ridiculous salary increase plus not paying sufficiently for their health insurance or pensions is way over the top.

The one point (well, one of many) that Mikie has consistently ignored is the fact that nobody on this posting (or any other postings) has ever advocated the total elimination of unions. The only person that has ever mentioned the elimination of unions is Mikie himself. He has consistently refused to provide specific verifiable data to support his claims regarding only the unions associated with BART. The BART workers are among the highest (if not the highest) compensated non-skilled transportation workers in the country and pay nothing for their pensions and $92 per month for family health care that can cost as much of $1,500 per month. Since these are public employees paid by public dollars, any attempted comparison to private business has no validity. As has been pointed out ad nauseam for Mikie, nobody is advocating the elimination of even this union, however certain safe guards need to be in place to assure the public is not held hostage to the unreasonable demands of an out of control union. Senator Mark DeSaulnier may have started in the right direction regarding some legislation that would keep the transit workers from ever striking again
Why Mikie continues to throw out idiotic remarks such as “I usually don't link because I operate at a higher intellectual level than the lathered up dupes such as Dave/Kath” does not in any way add value to any conversation and only shows Mikie’s Only Child Syndrome side.

Posted by To: JTR
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 14, 2013 at 10:14 pm

You nailed it! If you've missed anything it is only the 37.5 hour work week, the OVERTIME exemption/rules that allow these public employee unions time-and-one-half or double-time pay rates even when they only work 37 hours or no more than 7.5 hours per day, and that taxpayers have to cover the cost of their failing pension plan - which is ballooning out of control.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 15, 2013 at 7:51 am

Gotta love the way Dave invents JTR in order to talk to himself....

Cholo, I love the Basque region. Bilbao is one of the most beautiful little cities I have ever seen, and the museum -- its exterior as well as interior (with the Serra structures) -- is something I wish everyone in the world could experience. When I was last in Bilbao, there were literally hundreds of sculpted cows situated on the downtown streets -- one of the most enchanting displays of public art I've ever seen.

As to engaging Timmy the Tea-Shirt Hunt, why risk my name and reputation so I can comment on his cowardly site where, not only does he close it off to nonregistered users, but where he's also too gutless to respond to any comments by the registered users. My own option is to write a parallel piece that exposes Hunt's own (poorly written) screeds as the superficial little fascist whimpers they are. Now, if I had no name or reputation, or if my reputation was already dirt like it is for one or two of the narcissistic posters, I'd register.

I don't know why JTR(Dave) continues to post ever-shrinking, corporate-supplied "facts" about BART workers. Only envy can explain his obsession. Yes, BART workers are positioned such that many other workers can aim for what BART workers have been able to achieve. That's what unions have done historically and continue to do today.

Instead of groveling in resentful pity for oneself, one should use BART as inspiration and go organize one's own workplace. Of course, one would have to be a functional human being to do such, which rules out so many of the resentful posters here, registered and nonregistered.

I agree with you, Cholo. So many of the resentful, spiteful ones fall well short of being worthy intellectual adversaries. Rather than think things through, they wrap themselves up in their own narcissistic blather while displaying petty resentments toward those who have the courage to organize themselves against the forces of ownership and control in America. Such is life.

Mikie, at this point, I don't think you have to worry about anybody besmirching your reputation. You've done an admirable job all by yourself! You could use any of your other names to register, such as Shoogy and Claude-Bob, as you have in the past on other postings. Still avoiding supplying any verifiable answers to the basic questions presented to you.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 15, 2013 at 8:56 am

Yes, I know, Dave, many posters like yourself use multiple names to register multiple times.

But more important, Dave. What does JTR say?

Have anything to say about BART strike or how it is being 'covered' by the corporate media? Or are you intent simply to bark up a tree about how unionized workers have organized for themselves a better life than you've been able to do for yourself and family?

Cholo: Have a great time in the Basque region!!! And to think, neither Kath Regslegger nor Dave has asked you yet how you're getting there on food stamps!!!

Still avoiding the questions regarding the BART union. Feel free to use any of your past aliases, such as Shoogy and Claude-Bob to answer.
Regarding Cholo, I hope she has a wonderful time on her vacation regardless of how she finances it.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 15, 2013 at 9:13 am

Dave, my reputation exists outside the confines of the PW forum. I do understand, however, how your own identity is bound up with your resentful rants about how courageous union workers have a better life than you do.

Back to the basic questions presented innumerable times to you that only need a yes or no answer from you.

Do the union members have 100% taxpayer-funded defined benefit pensions?
Do the union members have $92/month health insurance, no matter the size of the family or cost of the insurance?
Do the union members work less than 40 hours a week (unless they also add in overtime)?
Can the union members can call in sick or take a vacation day and then work on their day off and get paid overtime?
Can the union members continue to receive the $92/month health insurance, even after they leave BART.
Do the union members still get step raises?

I plan to have a wonderful vacation, visit a few relatives who are still ALIVE! and inquire about what family members are thriving in Argentina. We were political refugees because my father was involved in activity against a ruthless military regime. My parents suffered greatly and did everything they could to protect the family. My mother's family disappeared in Argentina. We escaped through Costa Rica, flew to Madrid, and slipped out of Madrid because of Franco. We settled in the Basque Country and eventually, England. That's where I attended the equivalent of high school in America.

My greatest hero has always been Jacobo (Jacob)Timmerman in Buenos Aires where I grew up.

Mike Cherry, it may be best to dismiss the questions of certain posters on this blog. You're a convenient target at present and many will hound you until they feel that they've made you heel.

Please continue to provide useful and informative information. Avoid the nastiness and name calling. It denies their presence and they are stuck with themselves...tee hee hee...GORA!

Mike Cherry: In my opinion, what's being said about you is enough for others who are reading the entries on this blog to target you.

Some posters pass themselves off as enjoying the argument. Pay attention. The more extremist readers/observers are carefully reading what you are saying. It's what the innocent appearing others are saying/posting that's inflammatory.

You have already been split-off as a bad object, and the mentality that drives the behavior of some readers is quite possibly unpredictable.

There are individuals/groups in the general area of Pleasanton who belong to extremist groups that are capable of acting out by targeting you in some way.

Mike, be careful. The union needs supporters like you.
Some individuals who post and protect themselves by couching their comments as legitimate intellectual discussion/argument could be leading you on.

Extremist individuals do post on this blog and many could easily be characterized as grounded in hate ideology.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 16, 2013 at 8:38 am

Yes, Cholo, all too many of the posters here take their citizenship for granted and couch their hollow views in terms of pseudo-Constitutionalism. They have no concept of the kinds of political horrors that have been and continue to be inflicted upon innocent people -- often union activist workers -- and drive them to earn immigrant status in another country. Others, too, I fear would love America to have its own Franco in order to drive our immigrant population into oblivion. Of course the likes of Dave, Kath and the rest of the tea party goons who post here keep fascist 'dreams' alive, whether they be those of Franco or Sarah Palin.

As you know, Madrid, nothing like it was during Franco's rule, is one of the world's greatest cities. If you fly through on your way to the Basque country, hope you can layover a day or two and soak in some of Madrid's world-class art museums during the day and its vibrant flamenco music scene at night. Viva Paco! Viva Diego! Viva Vincente! Viva Sabicas!

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 16, 2013 at 1:06 pmKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

You continue to make declarations about people that are not yours, or Cholo's, to make. It is unlikely you know any of the posters personally. Please try to use facts rather than assumptions and innuendo.

Posted by Daveg
a resident of Birdland
on Aug 16, 2013 at 1:20 pmDaveg is a registered user.

Mikie is still struggling how to continue not to answer the basic questions asked of him. His continued effort to divert legitimate questions regarding the union and its demands only shows that he really has nothing of value to add.
Questions to Mikie (again, again!)that only require a yes or no answer from him.
Do the union members have 100% taxpayer-funded defined benefit pensions?
Do the union members have $92/month health insurance, no matter the size of the family or cost of the insurance?
Do the union members work less than 40 hours a week (unless they also add in overtime)?
Can the union members call in sick or take a vacation day and then work on their day off and get paid overtime?
Can the union members continue to receive the $92/month health insurance, even after they leave BART.
Do the union members still get step raises?
None of these require additional side remarks from Mikie; hopefully he will be able to answer simply as requested.

Mike, you're being played...again. The information that you put out is quite likely being forwarded and read by BART management.

Consider providing information to readers but not responding to Kathleen, Daveg, and Dave.

In my opinion, Kathleen, Daveg, and Dave are baiting you. I don't experience Kathleen's cool, collected and logical style the least bit sincere. Daveg and Dave are plain ole nasty and juvenile. Not at concerned about how they touch upon the lives of innocent others that they seemingly enjoy banging.

There is quite possibly more mileage in educating the public about this struggle between the Union and BART and not justifying and backing up every word and letter that you post just because one of them poses more questions. They know how to create chaos.

Posted by Nurse Shark
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Aug 16, 2013 at 5:34 pm

Cholo said:
"In my opinion, Kathleen, Daveg, and Dave are baiting you. I don't experience Kathleen's cool, collected and logical style the least bit sincere. Daveg and Dave are plain ole nasty and juvenile. Not at concerned about how they touch upon the lives of innocent others that they seemingly enjoy banging."

Glad to have you on the side of rationality, Cholo. Far too many people get duped by this person/persons/whatever. I hope that, over time, others also come to see them for what they are.

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 17, 2013 at 7:52 amKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Several people have posted information and links to data. Mike, and now Cholo and NS, have made many statements without supporting information. When asked any question to clarify those statements, there are only more statements and no supporting data for the claims. If there is baiting, it would be Mike and chorus making assumptions and assertions that others consistently continue to disprove.

As to this statement, Cholo: "I don't experience Kathleen's cool, collected and logical style the least bit sincere." Make every attempt to be civil; aim to be clear about what is fact and what is opinion; acting with the same bad manners as others makes a person look as foolish as those first misbehaving. There are also rules for posting on PW; although, it appears how they are applied is random.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 17, 2013 at 8:47 am

Old Kath demands facts, but once they go into her 'fact processing machine' they get distorted beyond recognition.

Old Kath demands facts, and does so without any apparent recognition of how facts mean nothing if they are processed outside a coherent thought process.

I see no evidence of any logical style from Kath, beyond sniping about a fact here or a fact there. When asked to defend her thoughts about something, or the logical framework within which they are being developed, she always falls back on sniping or a promise to get back to the board. This is both cowardly and devoid of any semblance of rational thought on her part. She assumes everybody thinks like her -- after all, she's seen her opinions expressed in the news. She can provide a link! What a laugh. This amounts to an unfortunate symptom of all fascist supporters who would find great comfort in living under fascist totalitarian rule.

My own stated opinions, on this and other sites, have consistently been packaged as arguments backed by good reasons, as well as facts. When folks have asked for clarification re. my thought processes, I have given it, and where there's reliable information, I've supplied it. But folks who have difficulty with reasoning and logic, tend to feel a certain seasickness whenever they're confronted by a validity claim backed by good reasons. Hence the irrational demand for facts, facts, and more facts. Socrates claims: All men are mortal, and Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is moral. Queen Kath retorts: "Where's your link?"

I asked repeatedly for Kath or her other monikers to defend the claim that her/their position differs from fascism. But once such a request goes into the maelstrom of her unexamined biases and media-supplied 'correct ways of thinking about things' all we get is: Employers shouldn't be responsible for workers' benefits! Employers shouldn't provide pensions for their workers! I'm a libertarian! I don't believe people should get govt assistance! Let their kids starve! I love children! And more jumbled blather. In other words, once drawn out from her cowardly snipes, there's nothing there but a concoction of bizarre, indefensible beliefs.

This is way, in the final analysis, workers will win the day. Their opponents have nothing but power, wealth, and legions of ignorant ones like Kath/Dave who slurp up corporate media-supplied swill.

Posted by Daveg
a resident of Birdland
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:03 amDaveg is a registered user.

It is interesting to note that this posting was originated by Mike Cherry with his first statement being "For weeks BART management has waged a PR campaign in the corporate media which, in turn, has uncritically reproduced BART management's deceptive numbers without so much as a mention of how those numbers are contradicted by the more reliable numbers offered by BART's workers". Yet when asked to supply those "more reliable numbers" has resorted to plain old name calling. How repeated requests for those numbers and the sources for such numbers can be construed as 'plain ole nasty and juvenile" is puzzling.
Are these sample remarks attributed to Mike Cherry and Cholo an example of mature and respectable?
From Mike Cherry - And to think, neither Kath Regslegger nor Dave has asked you yet how you're getting there on food stamps!!!
From Cholo - tee hee hee...take your head out of the u know what and maybe you won't be so confused...tee hee...
I would encourage all to review the comments on this and other postings and determine if Mike has answered the questions presented to him following his many postings.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:12 am

Still waiting for you to describe for us the variant of fascist you subscribe to, Dave. Why are you afraid to put your ideas to the test of a public forum?

There has been a court injunction against management and workers waging their campaign through the news. The workers, with the exception of some union spokespersons who have felt the need to correct management's distorted facts, have abided by the injunction. Management has not, and has used the corporate media as its own tool.

What have you offered to this thread, Dave, beyond "Woe is me Bart workers make more than I do!" From the 'quality of your arguments, Dave, I have no problem at all with accepting that reality.' Selfish little chirping from yourself -- a castoff from the greedy ones who made it but who left you behind -- offers pretty good reason for why your life hasn't turned out very well for you.

Unfortunately, all too many within our corporate capitalist state suffer the same fate as you have. Fortunately, there are still organized workers who have the courage and smarts to stand shoulder to shoulder in solidary ... as opposed to the little lonesome chirpers like yourself. Your envy is quite transparent.

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 17, 2013 at 10:02 amKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

Mike says, "My own stated opinions, on this and other sites, have consistently been packaged as arguments backed by good reasons, as well as facts." And then tries to attribute this to me, "Employers shouldn't be responsible for workers' benefits! Employers shouldn't provide pensions for their workers! I'm a libertarian! I don't believe people should get govt assistance! Let their kids starve! I love children! And more jumbled blather. In other words, once drawn out from her cowardly snipes, there's nothing there but a concoction of bizarre, indefensible beliefs." With the exception of loving children, all fabrications.

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 17, 2013 at 10:59 amKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

I did not see it-- fact. Provide the date and paper?

Straw man: "This sort of 'reasoning' is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself." I do not support the position of BART unions in this contract negotiation. I quoted the SEIU contract and info from the Governor's committee. Calling out fascism is a straw man.

Posted by Daveg
a resident of Birdland
on Aug 17, 2013 at 12:52 pmDaveg is a registered user.

I would think that if Fascism is something Mikie or Nurse Shark would like to discuss, they could start a posting for the subject. In the meantime, perhaps Mikie could stick to the subject that he initiated with this posting. That is, discussion on the BART union and rather or not their demands are "reasonable". The questions asked of Mikie are simple ones regarding the current benefits that this union has and what are their additional demands. To date, his continued rants against anybody that poses such questions is perhaps more of an indicator of his mind set and does nothing to encourage meaningful dialogue. Evasive is a technique that Mikie has apparently mastered, at least he must think so.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 17, 2013 at 7:41 pm

Seeing one's opinions or like-opinions stated in the news isn't exactly seeing oneself in the news. Only a very big and very weak ego could make the leap. Good one, Kath! Your narcissism really knows no bounds.

Evasive. Great descriptor. Thanks Nurse Shark. Kath/Dave, time and again, wriggle out of defending their thoughts. Why? Because their thoughts are largely unexamined, as they instead fall back upon bias and resentment toward others. Snipe-snipe. Chirp-chirp. Nothing more.

Kath, when not dreaming of having herself written about in the media, can only take facts, more often than not misread them (see my first paragraph above), and then exclaim: Not enough facts! Not enough links!

Beyond such exclamations, there are also the repetitious denials of what she said, or didn't say, or meant, or didn't mean. Why the need for all these denials? Because the opinions she expresses, so often unhitched to any logical thought pattern, are flopping in the wind, subject to just about any interpretation one wants to assign to them.

I've asked repeatedly for a coherent defense of her self-proclaimed libertarianism and how it differs from full-throated fascism. Does she provide such? Of course not. Can she do so? I doubt it. As such, her claims that Bart workers' demands are outrageous, that workers generally shouldn't receive pensions or benefits from their employers, combined with her previously expressed paranoia about workers pooping in her father's pick-up truck, hold no validity. She could try to correct my claims with a well-developed, coherent argument. But to the best of my knowledge she's never done this, nor can she. All she can do is call for links, and make ignorant statements about survival of the fittest in human society, and the like. There's nothing there beyond a small mind filled with resentment toward those who she believes shouldn't be doing better than she does with her state-supplied pension.

This thread was originally started up as a response to the doofus who writes opinion pieces for the PW but who obviously spends most of his time at the 19th hole complaining about Bart workers' lavish lifestyles. I think I pretty thoroughly discredited his ill-formed, ridiculous views. No links were needed.

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 17, 2013 at 8:05 pmKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill There is no logical reason me to refute your false claims and straw man nonsense. Keep up with the lies and assumptions and innuendo, Mike. After all, it's all you have.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 17, 2013 at 8:11 pm

Correction, Kath. I have a lot more than you do. Any thoughts of your own, beyond Winston Churchill's innocuous rhetorical quip? And from a politician, no less. My, we are gullible!

For a contrary view, see George Orwell's reference to the Ministry of Truth in Oceania; tie to modern-day corporate media's distortion of all reality. In case you want to accuse me of citing a piece of fiction, please read Orwell's serious essays. Orwell, by the way, defined himself as a democratic socialist; his defenses of unions were robust.

Posted by Nurse Shark
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:00 pm

Look at that: Staceleen googled a quote. Will wonders never cease.

Mike, I think you may be on to something with the "seeing her name all over the forum allows Staceleen to believe that this makes her part of the news" theory. I've long struggled to imagine what kind of motivation could glue her to a small-town blog like a World of Warcraft addict for so many years, and your theory makes sense to me.

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:04 pmKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

I don't support the unions' stance. There is a direct correlation between what one can expect to earn and the services provided. What BART employees earn is more than generous, in my opinion. All anyone has to do is read the contracts; read the Governor's committee report; and then make up their own mind. So far, the "corporate" media polls do not favor the unions.

What you've attempted to do, time and again, is to repeat falsehoods, to make the discussion a personal attack, and to steer the discussion away from BART.

Posted by Daveg
a resident of Birdland
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:11 pmDaveg is a registered user.

Mikie, rather than continuing to babble on with your comments that have no bearing on the BART stalemate, I would be interested to know if you have bothered to read the article that your cohort, Cholo provided the link to. Basically it espouses using binding arbitration, much like Major League Baseball has used since 1973. Is that something that you would support?

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:23 pm

So, Kath, instead of snipe-swipe with the Churchill quip, care to actually defend his statement? You know, that would entail actually putting your brain to work instead playing the Little Miss Churlish game all day, every day.

Baseball players have accepted binding arbitration for individual salaries; I'm unaware of binding arbitration being used to resolve full-fledged contracts between MLB and Players' Union. As far as I know, unions still possess the right to strike; as owners have the right to lock out. Forfeiting one's threat to strike in negotiations with owners/managers who have the right to lock out? Nuh-uh. You do understand the distinction I'm making, don't you Dave? Dave? Dave?

Posted by Daveg
a resident of Birdland
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:36 pmDaveg is a registered user.

Mikie, The link that your cohort supplied is entitled "A route around a BART strike" authored by somebody that Cholo obviously admires. He is the one that made the correlation with MLB. My only question to you after reading the article (you have read it, right?) is would you support his suggestion of binding arbitration? Or do I note a crack in the Cholo Cherry mutual admiration society?

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 17, 2013 at 9:42 pm

The idea of 'mutual admiration' has its place in fascist, totalitarian regimes in which the 'leader(s)' possesses charismatic authority. That's your universe, Dave, not mine; and I doubt it is Cholo's either.

I do not support binding arbitrary for Bart workers. Their strike, and threat to strike, is working well enough. Let's see how it turns out.

Posted by Daveg
a resident of Birdland
on Aug 17, 2013 at 10:03 pmDaveg is a registered user.

Mikie, thanks for finally answering a question. Re "mutual admiration" comment, I think the following more accurately conveys you and Cholo. "A group of two or more people, in a workplace or other social environment, who routinely express considerable esteem and support for one another, sometimes to the point of exaggeration or pretense". Sounds like your universe. But hey, thanks again for answering my question.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 18, 2013 at 12:22 am

I urge you to stick to the topic, Dave. I realize that is difficult for you to do so with so much swirling around in your head.

You asked about binding arbitration, I responded. I'll respond again. Binding arbitration can work; but binding arbitration depends upon both sides deciding, in the here and now, to submit to an arbitrator's decision. This should it override a worker's right to strike. What? You agree? You disagree? Oh, you don't know what you're talking about? I see.

Now, as to your rather inordinate fixation with Cholo and me, Dave, I'll leave you to play your piccolo as you obsess over matters in your own head which have no bearing whatsoever on Bart workers getting a fair contract in return for their labor.

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 18, 2013 at 3:46 amKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

". . . Bart workers getting a fair contract in return for their labor." The general consensus of riders, taxpayers, and management--maybe even the Governor?--seems to be that the unions have overreached.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 18, 2013 at 7:56 am

Kath contributes yet another dishonest point of view. Fact is, with a gag order placed on both sides in this labor dispute, the public knows very little about the specifics of the labor dispute. About the best they can muster is that, as a single nonscientific poll has indicated, they think management has made a better case in the media than has the union. Kath takes this to mean that a 'general consensus' thinks the unions has overreached. Her comment is inaccurate, and it is dumb.

We have come to expect little else from Kath. We know that beneath her catty little quips there isn't much going on except for some rigid biases that developed during her childhood in Chicago when, she claims, union members threatened to poop in people's cars and trucks. Never having recovered from her little girl experiences, she prints hyperbolic claims that are untethered to reality.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 18, 2013 at 1:29 pm

Gotta love this one, Kath's recent intellectual contribution to the thread. Now we're supposed to ponder over her use of the word, 'seem'.

So, we go from a laughable little corporate-sponsored poll re. public's view of Bart management's use of the corporate media, to Kath's stating the poll 'seems' to indicate a consensus among riders, citizens, the Governor, and, who knows, maybe even God. When held accountable for her sloppy reasoning, she falls back upon a dishonest attempt wriggle free based on the meaning of 'seems'. What has come increasingly into view here is a basic dishonesty that runs throughout Kath's posts. I guess most posters already knew this, while I've been too busy laughing at her inability to clearly state anything without dissembling, denying, and assuring us that her ideas aren't as vapid as they, er, seem.

Posted by Kathleen Ruegsegger
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Aug 18, 2013 at 1:58 pmKathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.

The problem is yours, Mike. As usual, you had to twist the post to continue your rants, assumptions about posters, assertions without basis, straw man arguments, and other diversionary tactics. That much is very clear.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 18, 2013 at 2:17 pm

Even your attempts to save face are weak, Kath. The problem is mine? I'll tell you what. When I've sunk to the depths of systematically misusing data as you do, and then further besmirching my already amply besotted reputation by claiming my arguments rest on my use of 'seems', I'll own up to having a problem. Until then, I'll continue to enjoy the shows you offer us.

Want to give it another whirl, Kath? C'mon, don't give up: give us the links and tell us how those links verify the conclusions you have drawn. We'd all love another laugher from you.

Posted by Daveg
a resident of Birdland
on Aug 18, 2013 at 3:07 pmDaveg is a registered user.

Mikie could never be accused of systematically misusing data, as he has yet to supplied anything to support his position, other than typical bluster with nothing behind it. And Mikie is afraid to become a registered user because his reputation might be impacted! The question that Mikie continues to refuse to answer are not emotionally generated or opinion, but rather simply a request for his own verification, yea or nay. Perhaps Mikie could tell us how his conclusions can be verified.

Posted by Daveg
a resident of Birdland
on Aug 18, 2013 at 3:27 pmDaveg is a registered user.

Mikie if you registered, you could comment on other postings that you feel that you have been shut out from. You value your worth much higher than I do, because I have no interest in knowing your real name. Get over yourself.

Posted by Mike Cherry
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Aug 18, 2013 at 4:35 pm

Okay, okay, let's drop the topics of the Bart labor conflict and how it's treated within the corporate media. Let's all instead talk about Dave's fixation with my real name.

Registering wouldn't have done me any good with the Tim Hunt 19th Hole posts, Dave. He's too much of a coward to respond to what any of the registered posters say. Not much of a conversationalist (nor much of a writer for that matter), he simply dumps and runs. I personally don't have a nose for that. Dave obviously does.