Please don't worry about the "defam" dl has threatened you with, I have read your notes, and Im sure others who have read them will agree there is nothing defamatory about your notes. Since when did observing and stating the truth become defamatory? SES has taught that we should be "fearless" and yet instills fear by threatening legal action at every turn against anyone who has anything less than positive to say about them. Clara's mum left SES because of the same threat they made against her daughter's book. They cannot keep doing this every time someone questions their motives or treatment of people. I am so glad to be out of this organisation - especially when I read of how they are reacting to people's genuine concern about what is happening - like yourself - trying to honestly change things for the better.

I think that you have given them every benefit of the doubt, and been totally honest with them - and worked very hard to maintain a balanced view which must be very disappointing (I know it is for me), when you realise they are not interested in any of our thoughts or concerns - or even our search for truth; the painful realisation is - they have their own agenda and are not interested in anyone who questions them or their teachings/rules in any way. Dont they realise that legal action could be taken against them for all the damage they have done - and are still doing through offering a class in philosophy which is a cover up for overtly leading you into a hindu religion that you know nothing about or had any choice about? What about all the years and money we have wasted thinking we were being taught the Truth only to realise they had their own agenda and it has nothing to do with the Truth. No, it may be time to think about what this has personally done to us and stop it happening to others - and make our own legal threats!

Yes, Carlynnnm8,Perhaps DL and the SES Executive should give serious thought to what if enough people around the world who have experienced first hand the effects of the SES and its administration could gain the support of a number of international lawyers and mounted a class action against the SES and the satellite schools and their executives. How long would DL and his organization last if the court ruling was in our favour,the legal cost and compensation cost would run into billions of pounds and would probably bankrupt the whole organization completely. DL should get off his high horse and give serious consideration to this possibility.

All the legal threats reminded of that part in Robert Bolt's play "A Man for All Seasons" where at the trial of Thomas More, Cromwell says to More: 'You don't seem to appreciate the seriousness of your position.More: I defy anyone to live in that cell for a year and not appreciate the seriousness of his position.Croml: Yet the State has harsher punishments.More: You threaten like a dockside bully.Crmwl: How should I threaten?More: Like a Minister of State, with justice!Crmwl: Oh, justice is what you're threatened with.More: Then I'm not threatened.

Brilliant words in this play. Interestingly John Colet, Thomas More and Marcilio Ficino communicated their philosophical thoughts to each other. Ficino, the apple of the SES's eye, son of a poor physician to the Medici's, as payola to his father, educated by the mafia of Florence, the Medici Family, for their own benefit; they murdered anyone whosoever got in their way to power, they make the Chicago gangsters of the 1920's look like petty thieves, Marcilio Ficino has been plucked out of obscurity by the SES, and placed on a pedestal. What did he really achieve in the scheme of things?

I must say when I read of DL's response to you it made my blood boil. But on the other hand, how very interesting that response is. Defamatory remarks? I wonder what his definition of defamatory remarks is with regard to the workings of the SES. All you have done in your notes is tell it exactly as it is. Now, is that defamatory? Surely not if you are certain that everything the SES teaches is 'the truth' and the will of the absolute. Surely DL's response should be, this is wonderful, send me the notes with all speed so I can shout them from the rooftops, they will make my job a whole lot easier. As he can certainly rest assured that the notes are a concise, objective account of the ways of the SES and could be used very effectively as a FAQ guide for all those new initiates. Or could that in fact be the problem?! Your notes are presenting the facts, no dissembling about 'the truth' and 'dropping ideas' and 'losing the ego'. Your notes, in fact, just happen to strike at the contradiction at the heart of the SES. On the one hand plausibility and an alleged love and endorsement of 'the truth', 'natural law' etc. And on the other hand cover-ups and suppression of any meaningful debate about these self-same concepts.

It is a true cult isn't it. Now if DL can't face up to that, that is his problem not yours.

Further to the whole legal action thing which SES hold over people like a sword of damocles, it's hilarious really that they also very much like the story of the Zen Master Hakim. Does anyone remember that one?

Hakim, a pure and respected Zen Master, is unjustly accused of fathering a child. Does he bitch and moan when his reputation is thus in tatters and he's reviled by all his neighbours? No indeed. He merely says 'Is that so' and does his duty by the baby when the grandparents dump it on his doorstep. Conversely, when the mother breaks down and confesses the truth and wants her baby back, does he bitch and moan? No indeed. He says 'Is that so' and hands the child back to the rightful parents. His reputation is restored but anyway his serenity has been unwavering throughout.

The SES just don't seem to be practising what they preach do they!! One whiff of anything they consider damaging and they're straight down the legal route. No 'Is that so' for them! Haha. What a joke.

It seems those old SES are selective who they challenge. I am very interested as to why my statements have not been answered or challenged. My mother told me that it is because what i said was the truth. Obviously defamation is a far more important issue than physical and mental cruelty and abuse. It is my opinion D. Lambie, you are a coward.

Gerasene Demon wrote:I am very interested as to why my statements have not been answered or challenged. ... Obviously defamation is a far more important issue than physical and mental cruelty and abuse.

The point you raise is interesting but can be explained. Bluemoon was in the SES when she first posted her but has since left and has challenged some of those in the SES directly about what she has found. I think the two things that mean that SES have taken more interest in her position than yours or ours is that she was a current member when she started posting here, meaning they were trying to control what she said here, and the fact she has had direct conversations & correspondence with senior SES members .

Us on the outside, they neither care about (though they claimed to when we were at school) and I don't think they want to be seen engaging with us apparent troublemakers - usual bury their heads in the sand behaviour.

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In this talk Gangaji speaks of ‘exclusion’ and mentions a friend of hers that is a psychotherapist who has dealt with many people who have come away from Advaita Vedanta teachers with problems due to this issue. She also mentions that this kind ‘exclusive’ or ‘pseudo-transcendent’ interpretation of Advaita can lead to fundamentalism which she describes “excludes everything but itself, as itself is defined”. She talks about inclusion and how that is the real nature of the teaching that she is putting forward (she does not see herself as a Teacher of ‘Advaita’ even, but others categorise her that way she says).

I found this very reassuring that someone who speaks from the heart (ie without notes) understands and has put forward an alternative to what she describes as ‘pseudo-transcendence’. Notions of ‘rising above’ or ‘letting go’ of problems are not used by Gangaji, rather, if anything she encourages people to really meet the issues, and see what lies beneath.

"I would appreciate it if the person who had written some notes on her experience within SES could share them with me?"

I am holding back at the moment on giving them out as explained under the topic: 'SES Philosophy - what it's like and what to watch out for'. I will get back to you about it though, give me a week or so, or I'll send them as a PM when I'm ready.

My experiences are of course as a woman in the London SES for about 20 years. As you mention, I also learned a lot which is why I stayed so long. However I also observed what appeared to me to be a 'hidden agenda'. But it may be that my experiences are a bit unique since I did challenge them almost from the beginning about gender issues - the dress code for example (and I am sure it is no coincidence that the most ever people on-line per day on this forum was on 12.3.06 - 75 people - and the dress code was changed at the beginning of June 2006 - the forum was getting thousands of hits at that time). In other words sometimes what you think is general practice is actually designed for specific people. Just before I left I spoke to my level head and mentioned that whilst I had resisted being in an all female group for almost the entire time I was there I was very happy in the all female group I was in for about a year (I think) before I left. But as I said to him we were a group of all independent minded women. His response of assent with a wry smile told me that he knew that, and perhaps it was designed that way? They do hand pick people for groups and levels. And even if I had not left I would not have been welcome once I contributed here, I was even warned about that by one of the senior men, even after only one contribution here I think! You are expected to 'cotton-on' as it was put to me once by the Principal at the time. My notes indicate the different treatment of women as compared to men, as well as a general outline of how things move on in the organisation, which you will be well aware of from your own experiences.

With best wishes,

Bluemoon (previously stiltrubld and trublshtr)

This is just to update notconvincedyet that I am still holding on these notes. It seems that it would be sensible to take legal advice if I do decide to post them publicly and since I don't have a lawyer this may take a little time. In any case unless anyone newish to the SES is particularly interested in which case do let me know, or unless anything further develops that is worrying, I may just leave it at that now.

Bluemoon (stiltrubld & trublshtr)

Last edited by bluemoon on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not at all surprised at this threat of supposed legal action but really, I think a cased based upon handing notes to 3-4 people via the internet sounds very shaky at best. I hear the same experiences over and over again on this forum. Are the powers that be planning to sue everyone here? If so, they'll face an interesting issue given that nearly everyone had the same experiences at the organization, regardless of what country they lived in while members or in the children's schools. I can see how they'd target you based on your recent departure, since they could, and have, easily dismissed many of our experiences as being old, and invalid since the school has "changed". Of course any type of organized comparison of your notes, which I have not seen, and the collective experience written about on this site, would show that while some superficial things have changed, much of it remains the same.