Apple vs. Adobe Round 2: Steve Jobs and Shantanu Narayen duke it out

The battle over Apple's decision to keep Flash of its iPad and iPhone devices has taken a new turn this week, with the CEOs of the companies slugging it out with rant posts.

Over the course of a few months, the niceties between Apple and Adobe have broken down, with Apple practically saying Flash is not good enough to be on the iPad and one Adobe developer going as far as to tell Apple to screw itself.

This week, round two of the "epic" battle began, with Apple CEO Steve Jobs posting a 1700 word rant with his thoughts on Adobe and Flash, and why HTML5 is better. He also takes aim at Flash by saying it affects battery life negatively, is hard to use on touchscreen devices, and is not secure. I will post the letter at the end of the article, but Jobs concludes his post by saying:

"Flash was created during the PC era – for PCs and mice. Flash is a successful business for Adobe, and we can understand why they want to push it beyond PCs. But the mobile era is about low power devices, touch interfaces and open web standards – all areas where Flash falls short. The avalanche of media outlets offering their content for Apple’s mobile devices demonstrates that Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content. And the 200,000 apps on Apple’s App Store proves that Flash isn’t necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games. New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind."

Hours after the letter was posted, Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen responded, calling Job's points a "smokescreen." Additionally he argues Flash is an open specification, and Apple's restrictions have "nothing to do with technology" and are more on protecting Apple's bottom line.

42 user comments

wow i dont know who to root for as i hate both..first of all i hate apple on principle for its dictatorship and complete control over anything their customers get out of their devices and their overpriced glorified holier-than-thou products and i think that for the near future(next 5 years at least) flash should be included on all smartphones since its so wdely used on the web today as a video standard and games as well. on the other hand i love the idea of HTML5 being an open source platform that can replace the buggy flash on PCs.

guess theres no help for it:screw you apple for being an a$$h*l3 and also die flash,die,in the next 2 years or so

HTML5 may be great, but that does not help me in 2010, when HTML5 is almost unheard of...and I don't think the iPad fully supports HTML5 anyway!

They might as well remove MP3 support while they are at it; by the time HTML5 is common, the devices will have plenty of memory for FLAC.

Oh, and they should certainly remove iTunes support...iTunes is very closed and it isn't even as good as MP3, even if you ignore all the problems and DRM.

Also, they have to remove Quicktime support, as Quicktime is probably the most closed media format in history. Plus it has always looked like crap.

Oh, and the books on the iPad are closed too...better remove those.

...And the iStore is closed, better dissable that too.

What would the iPad be without closed-source? It would be crummy mobile browser device that claims, "full web", but can only use about 1% of web video...a loss of nearly 4% from their current capabilities.

Originally posted by KillerBug: HTML5 may be great, but that does not help me in 2010, when HTML5 is almost unheard of...and I don't think the iPad fully supports HTML5 anyway!

They might as well remove MP3 support while they are at it; by the time HTML5 is common, the devices will have plenty of memory for FLAC.

Oh, and they should certainly remove iTunes support...iTunes is very closed and it isn't even as good as MP3, even if you ignore all the problems and DRM.

Also, they have to remove Quicktime support, as Quicktime is probably the most closed media format in history. Plus it has always looked like crap.

Oh, and the books on the iPad are closed too...better remove those.

...And the iStore is closed, better dissable that too.

What would the iPad be without closed-source? It would be crummy mobile browser device that claims, "full web", but can only use about 1% of web video...a loss of nearly 4% from their current capabilities.

Open?! Microsoft is more open than Apple! That's a load of bulls* used to avoid simply saying they are too mighty for Flash. What's the problem with adding support and leaving it to the user whether or not to actually use it? The point is that Flash is extremely pervasive and Apple is ignoring it because of who knows what (grudge, self-righteousness, w/e).

I still think that the real reason is the amount of free flash content which is out there. Steve Jobs talks about there being good games and apps without it BUT at a price because Apples strategy is about making money for itself and the band of app developers. Open source developers simply wont bother developing for iphone and ipad because without paying apple money they dont have the means to distribute to a mass audience.

As for the claim that the iphone is open that is - pardon the expression utter *?*=+!! - if it were then I could install apps, music, videos pictures and use it like an external drive without having to go near iTunes - sure it can be jailbroken to achieve many of these things - but I dont have to hack windows to run the software I want to run - so why should I have to hack my iphone (which is second hand so I didnt pay any money directly to apple for it!)

He spelled it out the way he sees it. Personally, I don't WANT flash on my iPod Touch OR my iPhone (haven't gotten my iPad yet :). Flash on web pages these days is more annoyance than anything else, so yeah, keep it off for all I care.

I am a Mac user and I own a number of Adobe products and I'm very happy with both. I think this is a silly argument anyway.

This is the biggest piece of garbage that Jobs has ever said in his life:

Quote: And the 200,000 apps on Apple’s App Store proves that Flash isn’t necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games

The whole reason there are 200,000 apps is because they don't support flash. If they supported flash then there would be no need for 199.900 of these apps because there are already flash apps and games that do the same.

The dumb dorks that buy these lame crapple devices are fooled by the 200.000 apps selling point... when in reality it's a plot by apple to charge you for things that are already available in Flash for FREE and at the same time rob the also foolish developers by charging them $100 for a license and then robbing them 25% of the profits when of course you can develop and publish Flash apps for free.

So everything Jobs said is pure BS. Truth is if they supported Flash then no one would make lame iphone apps and Apple would lose a ton of cash and they wouldn't be able to control their users and developers like puppets which of course is Jobs main purpose in life.

I still think that the real reason is the amount of free flash content which is out there. Steve Jobs talks about there being good games and apps without it BUT at a price because Apples strategy is about making money for itself and the band of app developers. Open source developers simply wont bother developing for iphone and ipad because without paying apple money they dont have the means to distribute to a mass audience.

As for the claim that the iphone is open that is - pardon the expression utter *?*=+!! - if it were then I could install apps, music, videos pictures and use it like an external drive without having to go near iTunes - sure it can be jailbroken to achieve many of these things - but I dont have to hack windows to run the software I want to run - so why should I have to hack my iphone (which is second hand so I didnt pay any money directly to apple for it!)

maybe the reason is his strong opinions about porn on the iphone, he dont want us to have free access to flash based porn sites and undermine crapples policy :P

Originally posted by favosys1: This is the biggest piece of garbage that Jobs has ever said in his life:

Quote: And the 200,000 apps on Apple’s App Store proves that Flash isn’t necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games

The whole reason there are 200,000 apps is because they don't support flash. If they supported flash then there would be no need for 199.900 of these apps because there are already flash apps and games that do the same.

The dumb dorks that buy these lame crapple devices are fooled by the 200.000 apps selling point... when in reality it's a plot by apple to charge you for things that are already available in Flash for FREE and at the same time rob the also foolish developers by charging them $100 for a license and then robbing them 25% of the profits when of course you can develop and publish Flash apps for free.

So everything Jobs said is pure BS. Truth is if they supported Flash then no one would make lame iphone apps and Apple would lose a ton of cash and they wouldn't be able to control their users and developers like puppets which of course is Jobs main purpose in life.

Hear hear... and to all the other similar posts.

Where would hypocritical Jobs be without real open standard stuff anyway... e.g. Unix.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 01 May 2010 @ 1:24

Originally posted by favosys1: This is the biggest piece of garbage that Jobs has ever said in his life:

Quote: And the 200,000 apps on Apples App Store proves that Flash isnt necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games

The whole reason there are 200,000 apps is because they don't support flash. If they supported flash then there would be no need for 199.900 of these apps because there are already flash apps and games that do the same.

The dumb dorks that buy these lame crapple devices are fooled by the 200.000 apps selling point... when in reality it's a plot by apple to charge you for things that are already available in Flash for FREE and at the same time rob the also foolish developers by charging them $100 for a license and then robbing them 25% of the profits when of course you can develop and publish Flash apps for free.

So everything Jobs said is pure BS. Truth is if they supported Flash then no one would make lame iphone apps and Apple would lose a ton of cash and they wouldn't be able to control their users and developers like puppets which of course is Jobs main purpose in life.

How dumb can you be Job's statement that you disagree about is right on the mark! As is the fact that Flash is a resource hog, I could cook an egg on my cpu when playing flash files. And that does not address other issues like compatability, I typically need three different players in order to be able to view flash files and even then the controls maybe disabled. If Flash was so good then why did MacroMedia sell out? Maybe it was becuase they couldn't sell their crap? Flash should have been dead years ago and there is no need for it today as there are plenty of other much better file formats out there. It is nice to see Job's is seeing the light on this finally.

Originally posted by favosys1: This is the biggest piece of garbage that Jobs has ever said in his life:

Quote: And the 200,000 apps on Apples App Store proves that Flash isnt necessary for tens of thousands of developers to create graphically rich applications, including games

The whole reason there are 200,000 apps is because they don't support flash. If they supported flash then there would be no need for 199.900 of these apps because there are already flash apps and games that do the same.

The dumb dorks that buy these lame crapple devices are fooled by the 200.000 apps selling point... when in reality it's a plot by apple to charge you for things that are already available in Flash for FREE and at the same time rob the also foolish developers by charging them $100 for a license and then robbing them 25% of the profits when of course you can develop and publish Flash apps for free.

So everything Jobs said is pure BS. Truth is if they supported Flash then no one would make lame iphone apps and Apple would lose a ton of cash and they wouldn't be able to control their users and developers like puppets which of course is Jobs main purpose in life.

How dumb can you be Job's statement that you disagree about is right on the mark! As is the fact that Flash is a resource hog, I could cook an egg on my cpu when playing flash files. And that does not address other issues like compatability, I typically need three different players in order to be able to view flash files and even then the controls maybe disabled. If Flash was so good then why did MacroMedia sell out? Maybe it was becuase they couldn't sell their crap? Flash should have been dead years ago and there is no need for it today as there are plenty of other much better file formats out there. It is nice to see Job's is seeing the light on this finally.

First of all I would like to say I'm not a Flash fan or Adobe fan or Flash defender or anything like that. I do use Dreamweaver and Fireworks a lot. Now concerning Apple I do not like them at all and I do pity the people who fall for their over expensive useless little toys. About your points, I have never had any problems with Flash, I don't think it's necessarily a resource hog. I imagine if programmed incorrectly it may in some specific cases be a resource hog. Maybe your computer is from the 90's and can't handle flash. I update mine when I can and Flash works just fine and I use Chrome. I don't know what players you're talking about, the flash plugin is installed once and usually you don't have to worry about it ever again. I don't think Macromedia selling out has anything to do with Flash. Dreamweaver is and has been for a long while a huge leader in Website design and Programming. Fireworks was crawling up Photoshop's a$$, Freehand was crawling up Illustrator's a$$, coldfusion while not extremely popular was a very stable and powerful programming platform. At the time everybody like photoshop and Illustrator and word and excel and publisher where implementing the save as HTML feature but that was a mess. I think Adobe had the cash and the opportunity to get rid of their growing competiton, get Dreamweaver which is awesome, control Fireworks, kill Freehand and Flash was just icing on the cake. And then they fixed Flex which as far as I heard is pretty amazing.

I'm not saying Flash is perfect, it has its flaws like any product. But if flash is such a worthless memory hogging piece of crap then why is there a Youtube app for Iphone? Cause if there wasn't then nobody would buy the crappy Iphone. This just proves flash works fine and doesn't hog anything on the Iphone. I have a NokiaE63 and I use the Skyfire browser when I need to see something in flash and it works just fine. So flash woks fine in my $150 dollar phone and works fine on my PC but according to Jobs it doesn't work on a $500 dollar I crap and by the wat it doesn't work on your PC so maybe here the problem is not Flash but some people.

Like many people have already said here, Flash has problems and it may go out eventually but it hasn't gone out yet and it won't go out soon. Oh and please tell me the many file formats that are much better than flash and do the same. I don't know anything that does what flash does, maybe Java but Java's extreeeeeeeemly slow and it would take you a week to do in Java an animation that you do in 5 minutes in flash.

Originally posted by MrsSpooky: I read Jobs' thoughts on the subject. I'd hardly call it a rant.

He spelled it out the way he sees it. Personally, I don't WANT flash on my iPod Touch OR my iPhone (haven't gotten my iPad yet :). Flash on web pages these days is more annoyance than anything else, so yeah, keep it off for all I care.

I am a Mac user and I own a number of Adobe products and I'm very happy with both. I think this is a silly argument anyway.

I had an early generation iPhone that didn't get MMS. I was eligible for an upgrade and went to Blackberry (at the time, iPhone still didn't do MMS, and my family and I love taking and sending pix to each other via phone). That was two years ago.

I want my iPhone back. My tax refund came this year and one of the things I wanted was a new iPod, so I got the iPod Touch. I use it a LOT (and it holds all my music). I'm waiting for the latest generation iPhone in July before I upgrade my Blackberry. I want my iPhone back. I should have waited on the iPod purchase till I got the new iPhone, but I didn't. Not sure they even make 64Gb iPhones, and I need that much for all my music and movies I have in itunes.

I laugh when I see everyone talk about steve jobs like he is Stalin or something... He receives 1$ a year salary since 1998, and only profits based on stock holdings... So if Apple does better than the less innovative competition... he makes major bank... Otherwise, people are just upset jobs actually seems to have a hand in innovation, while their old leader Gates is nowhere to be found.. just collecting Microsoft checks and never releasing anything that hasn't been done before.. And flash is fine on a desktop or laptop... the whole point from jobs is that they never improved their initial product it now hogs a huge market's battery life, smart phones!!

Apple prays on weak sheeple who only want the newest shiniest "thing" without caring if its better than the old "thing". Oh all my friends are wearing dipshit brand jeans... I need a pair too.
Go back to what the radio tells you to listen to, what TV tells you to watch, and what mass media and marketing tells you to buy. I will be happy on the other side of the wall being an individual with choices instead of a mindless drone.

M$ are in that cartel too.. but theora has so many thousands of developers and is open source.. so it can't be "bought" that easily..

Lets just keep buying these companies shitty products eh.. and keep giving them the money to stamp on us every step of the road... Tell you what.. I'll come round your house with a baseball bat and smash your face in.. oh btw,, you now owe me $500 for that kind "service" I just did you.. I'll use it to buy a better bat to beat you over the head with next time you have some money.....

Originally posted by asilay328: I laugh when I see everyone talk about steve jobs like he is Stalin or something... He receives 1$ a year salary since 1998, and only profits based on stock holdings... So if Apple does better than the less innovative competition... he makes major bank... Otherwise, people are just upset jobs actually seems to have a hand in innovation, while their old leader Gates is nowhere to be found.. just collecting Microsoft checks and never releasing anything that hasn't been done before.. And flash is fine on a desktop or laptop... the whole point from jobs is that they never improved their initial product it now hogs a huge market's battery life, smart phones!!

LOL, you actually believe that? Jobs just doesn't want anything that will interfere with his DRM scheme, and his "rent your media" format. Wake up dude, Jobs is a corporate billionaire that doesn't give a sh*t about you. Quit defending him like he's some kind of savior. Unless of course your an apple share holder?
Disagree with me? The next question I'd ask is why you can't move any of the media you have supposedly bought and own without opening drmtunes? I'm talking about apple devices that are not jail broken. Why no simple drag and drop support?
That speaks for itself.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 02 May 2010 @ 23:46

Originally posted by Deadrum33:Apple prays on weak sheeple who only want the newest shiniest "thing" without caring if its better than the old "thing". Oh all my friends are wearing dipshit brand jeans... I need a pair too.
Go back to what the radio tells you to listen to, what TV tells you to watch, and what mass media and marketing tells you to buy. I will be happy on the other side of the wall being an individual with choices instead of a mindless drone.

Originally posted by Deadrum33:Apple prays on weak sheeple who only want the newest shiniest "thing" without caring if its better than the old "thing". Oh all my friends are wearing dipshit brand jeans... I need a pair too.
Go back to what the radio tells you to listen to, what TV tells you to watch, and what mass media and marketing tells you to buy. I will be happy on the other side of the wall being an individual with choices instead of a mindless drone.

I guess I really cant call most apple product users sheeple, myself being lazy and using mostly Microsoft. My disdain isn't from fanboyism though, it's the fact that being a musician, many peers think apple is the only way to go for audio/video apps. Then go on to say that they are sticking it to the man and being an "individual" by not investing in Microsoft products. When I counter and say apple restricts personal choices as much or more than MS, theres really nothing a mac can do that a windows box can't, at least I can build my own machine and not just accept what they give me I get looked at like I just lost my street cred...I guess my hate really isn't for apple, its for the douchebags who believe they are better or different for using apple. Again, I tell them if they really want to stick the man use Linux, then i get that look again.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 03 May 2010 @ 7:06

Originally posted by Deadrum33: I guess I really cant call most apple product users sheeple, myself being lazy and using mostly Microsoft. My disdain isn't from fanboyism though, it's the fact that being a musician, many peers think apple is the only way to go for audio/video apps. Then go on to say that they are sticking it to the man and being an "individual" by not investing in Microsoft products. When I counter and say apple restricts personal choices as much or more than MS, theres really nothing a mac can do that a windows box can't, at least I can build my own machine and not just accept what they give me I get looked at like I just lost my street cred...I guess my hate really isn't for apple, its for the douchebags who believe they are better or different for using apple. Again, I tell them if they really want to stick the man use Linux, then i get that look again.

I understand your points, and they are valid. A person is choosing big, bloated, super-rich businesses either way. I purchased an IMAC, I love it, and the thing that shines most about it, is that it is as fast today as it was two years ago when I bought it... No having to worry about my internet browser, what anti-virus program to run to crush my ram... I know there are virus's and spyware for macs, i am not a mindless drone as many prior posts seem to believe all mac users are, I just have found this OS superior, maybe super-tech users of M$ products can run their pc problem free, but all I know was I could not, having to wipe out my HD and reload my OS time and time again, and then when I upgraded to vista, I was shocked at the immense down-grade I had paid for... I was just a person who used M$ my whole life, and tried something different, and this time, the grass was greener

The grass may be greener but a lot more expensive - for me its cheaper to build a new high specced PC every couple of years than to buy Apple. The other factor is that most apple users can afford to buy software so they are not endlessly downloading new shareware and freeware offerings - some which may eventually trash the system.

If apple would produce a basic model in in plain grey case in which I can install cheaper third party components then I would certainly give it a go - as you say they are both money creating corporations so no moral issue involved

When I get a linux version that is as easy to install as commercial software (please dont tell me ubuntu is because that simply isnt true!) and with the same range of high quality shareweare/freeware then I might be interested

Originally posted by asilay328: I laugh when I see everyone talk about steve jobs like he is Stalin or something... He receives 1$ a year salary since 1998, and only profits based on stock holdings... So if Apple does better than the less innovative competition... he makes major bank... Otherwise, people are just upset jobs actually seems to have a hand in innovation, while their old leader Gates is nowhere to be found.. just collecting Microsoft checks and never releasing anything that hasn't been done before.. And flash is fine on a desktop or laptop... the whole point from jobs is that they never improved their initial product it now hogs a huge market's battery life, smart phones!!

=================================

Steve Jobs has a history cheating hismpartners. Now he is the big boss he is trying to cheat all his customers....

Originally posted by asilay328: I laugh when I see everyone talk about steve jobs like he is Stalin or something... He receives 1$ a year salary since 1998, and only profits based on stock holdings... So if Apple does better than the less innovative competition... he makes major bank... Otherwise, people are just upset jobs actually seems to have a hand in innovation, while their old leader Gates is nowhere to be found.. just collecting Microsoft checks and never releasing anything that hasn't been done before.. And flash is fine on a desktop or laptop... the whole point from jobs is that they never improved their initial product it now hogs a huge market's battery life, smart phones!!

Your argument is completely irrelevant. If a thief only takes his share of the profits from a theft, and does not get paid a salary, does this make him a honest man?

BTW...I checked, the iPad does not have full HTML5 support...in fact, there is no device with full HTML5 support as the standard has not even been finalized yet! Not only do they refuse to support the current generation of the internet (FLASH), they do not offer the next generation of the internet (?HTML5?).

Imagine it is 1990 again and blockbuster stops renting VHS tapes because DVDs are better...but no one has a DVD player, there are no DVDs, and the DVD standard isn't even done yet. This is what apple does...and people still pay the "membership fee" of $700 for an iTampon.

Also, Steve Jobs does not like HTML5...I know he has been arguing for how great it is versus flash, but at the same time he is taking steps to block HTML5 on the iPad/iPod/iPhone. In fact, Apple has already made a rule prohibiting apps written in HTML5 (the FTC has already started an investigation on that).

So, it is not a matter of what one is better or what one is available...Apple is blocking both.

Oh, btw...anyone else starting to think this is just a coverup for the crummy AT&T network? I mean, they block FLASH and HTML5, they block fast web browsers, they limit video apps to 64K...the only thing that would explain all of this is the fact that AT&T refuses to build new towers at the rate that they need to. I bet if the iPad was on Verizon, then there would be flash.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 06 May 2010 @ 4:25

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Only thing I would NOT change about that year is seeing the real world after ingesting psylocybin for the first time and losing my virginity. Not on the same night of course LOL...

This subject kills me...people should think for themselves Mac or pc doesn't really matter do them research for yourselves. All the things said about flash good or bad are true it is used a lot on the web and it does suck, simply charge your laptop to 100% and unplug it then run a flash movie or show continually until the battery dies......then do the same with a h.264 non flash movie or show......you will get twice the battery life and if you check the cpu usage you will notice 90% to 100% on the flash and only around 39 % on the non flash. Not an issue on a desktop if your only running a program at a time and not trying to encode video or anything but on a device you want to last all day forget it.......and don't even get me started on all the security issues associated with flash......don't be haters be creators .....everybody's jumping off this ship called flash ABC,CBS,NBC,YouTube,hulu etc. Mobile is the future so battery life and low energy is important no matter if that's a phone a laptop or a tablet.

But surely it is up to me - the consumer - to decide whether i am bothered about battery life and risk of viruses. Microsoft learned with Vista that not all users want to be "protected from everything" - I like my iphone but get frustrated that I cant "push the boundaries" without jailbreaking it. I agree that flash (until they redevelop it) is becoming dated but there is an awful lot of FREE flash content out there at the moment, some of this will be legacy content that may never get put onto a new platform.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 May 2010 @ 5:58

Corporations use patents to prevent competition. Corporations outsource jobs to China and India. Why not eliminate patent protection as a way to create jobs in third world countries like the United States?

Originally posted by gbswales: But surely it is up to me - the consumer - to decide whether i am bothered about battery life and risk of viruses. Microsoft learned with Vista that not all users want to be "protected from everything" - I like my iphone but get frustrated that I cant "push the boundaries" without jailbreaking it. I agree that flash (until they redevelop it) is becoming dated but there is an awful lot of FREE flash content out there at the moment, some of this will be legacy content that may never get put onto a new platform.

Best comment so far. It's a good point to mention that inevitable legacy content. And it does raise the point that, yeah ,in a way, Jobs IS acting like a Stalin type... dictating to the consumer what they should have instead of letting market forces do their thing. If it's all digital I should be able to have a device that plays whatever I like. Sites like YouTube need to offer alternative formats for us first, it should not be forced upon us from high.

This message has been edited since its posting. Latest edit was made on 09 May 2010 @ 11:54