(21-09-2011 08:12 AM)Peterkin Wrote: I recommend partition rather than civil war. Move all the believers to the bible belt and all the reasoners to the sin belt.
That will also protect the South from climate change, because they don't believe in it, and if the congregations are no longer contaminated by backsliders, they can pray the draught ans tornados away.

That is cruel, I live in the south. I will have to move in with you if this happens.

Not cruel - practical. Look at the mess left behind by your last civil war. India and Pakistan may have their clashes, but it could have been a thousand times worse.
Some religious nut moves south to take your place; you move north to take theirs - all neat and tidy. And you will be the one better off, because now you can elect sane governments and do something about the very bad world coming soon.

Quote:1) Because the Declaration of Independence talks about "god" and the "creator".

Yes, and what of it? I said "god damn it" the other day when I stubbed my toe, and I am an atheist.

No theistic deity exists, a universal god is the only one left in doubt.

Actually my answer was that the US government is based on the Constitution, not on the Declaration of Independence. This person insisted that the US government is based on all the important documents by the founding fathers, so I encouraged him to go read the Treaty of Tripoli then, by John Adams, which says, and I quote,

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

I had never heard that before, very interesting, especially coming from Adams.

Quote:1) Because the Declaration of Independence talks about "god" and the "creator".

Yes, and what of it? I said "god damn it" the other day when I stubbed my toe, and I am an atheist.

No theistic deity exists, a universal god is the only one left in doubt.

Actually my answer was that the US government is based on the Constitution, not on the Declaration of Independence. This person insisted that the US government is based on all the important documents by the founding fathers, so I encouraged him to go read the Treaty of Tripoli then, by John Adams, which says, and I quote,

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

I had never heard that before, very interesting, especially coming from Adams.

Yes, it's not a well known document unfortunately and of course you'll never hear it mentioned by the Fox crowd, which has selective amnesia for this kind of things.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.

So, I have to ask you guys; What percentage of the population seriously says and/or BELIEVES these things?

Jesus...who knows....I've got this rural Alabama cousin (ok I have many but now I'm talking about this one) & she's always posting those little, like, stories, that have obviously been written to sound folksy. Then everyone like her is reposting them all over FB, you know what I mean.

She had this one, kind of long, supposedly an assignment some 15 year old boy had done for school & he got an A+! (the little asskisser) & it was aaaaaalll about how gee they aren't allowed to pray in school, but the prom queen is unwed & pregnant, & the prom king got her that way, & you can study vampires & totem poles (love that they lump native american history & vampires together), how you can get condoms & dye your hair weird colors, but you can't pray in school!

I usually leave her stuff alone, but I bit that time, saying that of course you can pray all you want, & doesn't the bible say you should pray quietly? It's this total xtian entitlement thing. It's not the thought police, of course you can pray. But why do you need a formal time at school for everyone to witness you praying? Doesn't that mean you have to sit & listen while other kids pray to their gods? But they never get that, do they. When they say prayer in school, or america is a xtian nation, they mean one specific god.

I just don't get this revisionist history. The founding fathers left many writings. And in those, they are as close to atheists as you could get back then. Yet these people who insist we need to take this country back to god the way it was intended, what are they reading? You just want to squash their noses into a real history book, then whack them on the back of the head with it.

Americans routinely lie about their religious beliefs. In point of fact most of them have none at all. But they say they do because they're supposed to. The "correct" response to "what religion are you" is any religion that's "approved" by the mass media.

I've always heard other Atheists talk about religious folk say these things, but other than the odd video on YouTube or idiot on Facebook, I've never actually heard anyone say it, so I always discarded it as radical nonsense.

... Then last week I took a trip to rural Ohio. And when I picked my rental car up, it was already tuned to a Christian radio station.

And the first words I heard were "'In God we trust' is America's MOTTO! We need to take America back from the so called 'secular' satanists!"
So, I have to ask you guys; What percentage of the population seriously says and/or BELIEVES these things?

Thank you in advance

As a Christian, I thought maybe you might like the viewpoint of one (and then again...maybe not).

Of the three statements above, only one of them do I feel someone that understands scripture and Christian doctrine (even on a layman level) would agree to: "Atheism is a religion."

Having spoken to atheists I know how offensive this might be, so keep in mind that I comment on this, not to offend, but to give you something to think about, as this post is actually based upon what I feel is misinformation on the part of both atheists as well as "Christians" who would affirm the other statements.

A definition of "religion:"

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

This is taken from wikipedia, the first definition given by the internet, which is the source of information for a lot of people.

The insistence that "there is no God" is not a belief just makes no sense. Either you believe that there is no God, or you don't, either way...that is what you believe. If I ask, do you believe there is no God, you will not say no, will you? That is your belief.

If I asked, does atheism have cultural systems, belief systems, worldviews that establish symbols that relate to spirituality and sometimes moral values (i.e. fish with feet and "goodness due to personal values), you might deny this.

Quote:Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

Does atheism have "narratives?" (world history)

Symbols?

Sacred histories...? That give "meaning" (explanation for) to life? That explain the origin of life and the universe?

And do these aspects of atheism drive the morality, ethics, laws (I left off "religious," though even in this thread it was suggested that Christians be rounded up and localized in one area...sounds suspiciously like past events in history to me), and...preferred lifestyle?

So if we use even a secular source to define religion, we would have to compare the similarities of Secular Humanism to religion, and I myself would conclude that atheism, by definition, is a religion, though their is an absence of a particular deity, which many of us see as having been replaced by the individual him/herself, in being the one who establishes right and wrong from which all the above will "be derived."

Quote:And the first words I heard were "'In God we trust' is America's MOTTO! We need to take America back from the so called 'secular' satanists!"

Look, for every sound radio program where actual instruction from scripture is taught, there are going to be a hundred programs where the "teacher" has about as much knowledge of scripture as the average American, and worse...they wrest the scruptures to suit a particular theology, denomination, or agenda.

What is sad is that there will be likeminded listeners or followers that support such teachers.

The sad fact is that in America, what we have are in fact a multitude of religionists that profess "belief in God," ans say "In God we trust" when actually their faith is in something altogether different.

Anyone that feels that America is a "Christian Nation" is as in error as the countries that, based on religious doctrine, hate America, and call her "the Great Satan," for example.

One reason for their hatred is not that "they are Christians," but in fact it is the lifestyles of Americans. Not just alternate lifestyles, but they look at Hollywood productions and assume that what they see there represents how Americans live, believe, et cetera.

This is similar to hearing a radio show in a car and thinking that the man speaking...speaks for Christ or teaches what scripture does.

Quote:So, I have to ask you guys; What percentage of the population seriously says and/or BELIEVES these things?

Sadly, you will find many that say and believe these (though "Noah's Ark carving the Grand Canyon is a new one...lol. Surely no-one said this in seriousness? Perhaps it was a statement such as the Grand Canyon is a result of the flood...there are some interesting facts about this place. Besides, we all know it was a spaceship that did that, right? [just kidding]).

But, I would just suggest that though someone says something, does not really mean they believe it in truth. This is taught repeatedly in scripture, making biblical belief and resulting action tied together, the lack of the latter evidence that the former is not true.

(03-10-2011 11:03 AM)S.T. Ranger Wrote: Sadly, you will find many that say and believe these (though "Noah's Ark carving the Grand Canyon is a new one...lol. Surely no-one said this in seriousness? Perhaps it was a statement such as the Grand Canyon is a result of the flood...there are some interesting facts about this place. Besides, we all know it was a spaceship that did that, right? [just kidding]).

NO. Or maybe you could clarify what you thought with this exactly, but I do not see atheism making any kind of world history, or influencing it, there was always some religion influencing world history, not atheism.

Quote: Symbols?

NO. What symbols?

Quote: Sacred histories...? That give "meaning" (explanation for) to life? That explain the origin of life and the universe?

NO. If you think about some scientific books, that has nothing to do with atheism, because a lot of religious people write those books and think of them as scientific evidence, no matter that they say the opposite of what their religion says in the scriptures. Atheism does not have a Bible as such.

Quote: And do these aspects of atheism drive the morality, ethics, laws (I left off "religious," though even in this thread it was suggested that Christians be rounded up and localized in one area...sounds suspiciously like past events in history to me), and...preferred lifestyle?

NO. We do not use scriptures to give us clues to morality, we use our simple logic and humanity to feel the morality and ethics of our actions, and the laws are given to all of us by the state in which we are living.

Quote: So if we use even a secular source to define religion, we would have to compare the similarities of Secular Humanism to religion, and I myself would conclude that atheism, by definition, is a religion, though their is an absence of a particular deity, which many of us see as having been replaced by the individual him/herself, in being the one who establishes right and wrong from which all the above will "be derived."

You can debate about the philosophical meaning of the words "believe" and "religion" as much as you want, but the fact is that "atheism" is the opposite of religion, not another religion, as we don't have holly books, scriptures, symbols, rituals, even deities to believe in... Only thing we do have is moral and ethics, and that alone makes us human, not religious.

So, this is all nonsense you just wrote here. By the definition of the "religion", none of those things fit in the "atheism". Sorry, try again.

I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.-Hunter S. Thompson

NO. Or maybe you could clarify what you thought with this exactly, but I do not see atheism making any kind of world history, or influencing it, there was always some religion influencing world history, not atheism.

Quote: Symbols?

NO. What symbols?

Quote: Sacred histories...? That give "meaning" (explanation for) to life? That explain the origin of life and the universe?

NO. If you think about some scientific books, that has nothing to do with atheism, because a lot of religious people write those books and think of them as scientific evidence, no matter that they say the opposite of what their religion says in the scriptures. Atheism does not have a Bible as such.

Quote: And do these aspects of atheism drive the morality, ethics, laws (I left off "religious," though even in this thread it was suggested that Christians be rounded up and localized in one area...sounds suspiciously like past events in history to me), and...preferred lifestyle?

NO. We do not use scriptures to give us clues to morality, we use our simple logic and humanity to feel the morality and ethics of our actions, and the laws are given to all of us by the state in which we are living.

Quote: So if we use even a secular source to define religion, we would have to compare the similarities of Secular Humanism to religion, and I myself would conclude that atheism, by definition, is a religion, though their is an absence of a particular deity, which many of us see as having been replaced by the individual him/herself, in being the one who establishes right and wrong from which all the above will "be derived."

You can debate about the philosophical meaning of the words "believe" and "religion" as much as you want, but the fact is that "atheism" is the opposite of religion, not another religion, as we don't have holly books, scriptures, symbols, rituals, even deities to believe in... Only thing we do have is moral and ethics, and that alone makes us human, not religious.

So, this is all nonsense you just wrote here. By the definition of the "religion", none of those things fit in the "atheism". Sorry, try again.

I will have to get back to this, and I look forward to it. In the meantime, Filox, I would suggest you look at this again. If you can honestly not see the parallels, okay.