"Les etoiles" is French.
There were Italian productions in French language at the end of 18th century, not only from Turin (which is near to France, but also in other more distant locations). These followed a style similar to the Tarot des Marseilles.

SteveM wrote:
In terms of entombment the cancer fits in terms of it being the gateway to the lower world (Christ's descent into hell prior to resurrection).

quote:

"From splendour to darkness, from Heaven to the Kingdom of Dis, from eternity to the bodies by the House of the Crab are these spirits doomed to descend, and pure in their simple essence, they shudder at the dull and blind habitations which they see prepared."

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:I'm pretty sure they would have known better than to interpret the Sun's going dark at the crucifixion as an eclipse. A solar eclipse occurs precisely at New Moon, not Full Moon, its exact opposite. ..

The suggestion is in context of the eclipse at the time of the crucifixion being a miraculous, supernatural event, not a natural one.

quote:
And then on the day of the passion of our Lord when darkness was upon the universal world, the philosophers that were at Athens could not find in causes natural the cause of that darkness. And it was no natural eclipse, for the moon was then from the sun, and was fifteen days old, and so was in a perfect distance from the sun, and nevertheless an eclipse taketh not away the light in the universal parts of the world, and it may not endure three hours long. And it appeareth that this eclipse took away all the light, by that which S. Luke saith that, our Lord suffered in all his members; and because that the eclipse was in Heliopolis, in Egypt, and Rome and in Greece...

...These be the words of Denis that he wrote in his epistle to Polycarp, and to Apollophanes, saying: We were, we twain, at Heliopolis, and we saw the moon of heaven go disordinately, and the time was not convenable. And yet again from the ninth hour unto evensong time, at the diameter of the sun established above all natural ordinance, that eclipse we saw begin in the east and coming unto the term of the sun. After that returning again, and not purged of that default, but was made contrary after the diameter. Then Denis and Apollophanes went to Heliopolis in Egypt by desire to learn astronomy. And after, Denis returned again. That the said eclipse took away the light from the universal parts of the world, it appeareth that Eusebius witnesseth in his chronicles, which saith that he hath read in the dictes of the Ethnicians that there was in Bithynia, which is a province of Asia the less, a great earth shaking, and also the greatest darkness that might be, and also saith that in Nicene, which is a city of Bithynia, that the earth trembling threw down houses. And it is read in Scholastica Historia that the philosophers were brought to this, that they said that: The God of nature suffered death, or else the ordinance of nature in this world was dissolved, or that the elements lived, or the God of nature suffered, and the elements had pity on him. And it is said in another place, that Denis saith: This night signified that the new very light of the world should come. And they of Athens made unto this God an altar, and set this title thereupon: This is the altar of the God unknown.

end quote: The Golden Legends Vol.5

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. T. S. Eliot

Here is Picinelli's explanation for poetry represended by a water spring:

“Father Raffaele Appiano, regular canonic, put this sentence above a fountain in which water springs from a marble column into a marble basin: “natura et arte” (with nature and art). It can be seen as the idea of Poetry, about which Horatio writes in “The Art [of Poetry]”:Ego quid studium sine divite vena,
Nec rude qui possit video ingenium; alterius sic
Altera poscit opem res, et coniurat amice.
(I do not see what effort can do without
a rich vein, nor genius alone; they need
each other and must be friendly to each other)”

About the Aquarius Zodiac sign:

The Water Bearer sign of the Zodiac is represented while pouring water from jars with the motto “numquam deficient” (they never run out). It can stand for the mercy and gifts from God, which always flow in abundance, without running out, at the advantage of the world. Arnold Carnotensis [Arnold of Bonneval?] in “Tractatus de semptem verbis Christi”: “Divine indulgence is not limited in its quantity, does not limp towards its goal, has no boundaries at all. If there is someone who asks, there will be someone who hears”. Juan Antonio Velazquez in “Psalmum Centesimum Davidis commentarii” quoting Philo: “Therefore it is truly said that since God is eternal, one can also say that he is a perpetual giver and benefactor. Not sometimes only, not in a small quantity, but always, continuously and indefinitely. He untiringly accumulates, adding gifts to gifts, providing richer and richer benefits”

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the
waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were
under the firmament from the waters which were above the
firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the
morning were the second day.
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered
together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it
was so.
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together
of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

The Latin for "seas" is "maria", which is an omograph of "Mary". So this sentence has been used by Cueilles and others to explain the association of the Virgin with water and the sea.

A young lady, with her hair loose, wearing a garland of flowers, playing a flute with her right hand and with her other hand pouring with a pottery pitcher the water springing from a fountain, at her foot the firmament - field of blue the firmament of silver.

The paper interprets the fountain as the Castalian font, but it provides no explanation for the presence of the stars.

I found statements from this thread about the Star card that I would like to respond to with my opinions.

"In classical imagery, the obvious interpretation for a female figure representing a Star is Venus (the Leber deck and the all-trumps Folengo sonnet confirm this in a Tarot context)." - Marco

My Question: Would you also include Isis as a female figure representing a Star? Isis is Egyptian, but does the Tarot imagery have to be Greek or Roman? Can there be a card in the Tarot Major Arcana that represents a constellation? What are all of those stars in a circle below a big bright star?

"This "signs in the Heavens" motif seems to be the most fundamental significance of the three celestial cards." mjhust

Can your "signs in the Heavens" include constellations? In my opinion, the signs in the heavens of the Star card include a nude woman, who I see as the Egyptian Isis. I see the stars in the Star card as the constellation of Canis Major, the Greater Dog. I see the big bright star in the Star card as the star Sirius, which was sacred to Isis and the Egyptians. The rising of the Nile river, which is seen in the Star card, as the Milky Way, which runs by Canis Major. The water from her jugs pours in the river (the Nile=Milky Way) and onto the land (the part of the constellation Canis Major that does not lie in the Milky Way). I see the bird in the tree as the dove in the faint constellation Columba. The star above cow horns is a symbol of Isis worn as a headdress, and that symbol can be seen in the constellation Canis Major. Isis is likely to be portrayed nude to help place her in a long past era.

" So, this could provide some thin support to the constellation of the Pleiades appearing in the Star card. With a good amount of wishful thinking, the raven in 38:41 could also be a candidate for the bird at the top of the tree. .. Another even more far fetched candidate as a constellation for the star card is Virgo, because it is somehow related to Virgin Mary and the birth of Jesus: " - Marco

I don't see any Christian connections in the Star card. It is entirely Egyptian.

Can anyone deny that a Tarot card with so many stars is a constellation?

It is my opinion that some of those "ink specks" were actually stars that got erased or forgotten. It is also my opinion that the Game of Constellations was not lost. The Game of Constellations is the Tarot's Major Arcana.

" I think a point in favour of a variation on Aquarius is that the other two celestial cards, the Sun and Moon, also bear zodiac like tableau (the crustacean on the moon, gemini on the sun) which suggest it as motif for these three cards in the Tarot de Marseille." - SteveM

I agree that the Moon card is connected with the zodiac sign of Cancer (crustacean), but I believe that the Sun card is a representation of Leo and the sun chariot. The signs of the zodiac don't form a sequence in the Tarot Major Arcana, except for the Moon and the Sun cards, which represent Cancer and Leo.

If the Star card does in fact represent Sirius and the constellation Canis Major, then

"Actually more female. "Two jugs - two female breasts - milky way" might be the common association, and then we have the astronomical idea again. But I don't know the common interpretation of the big picture in the Palazzo del Te. " - Huck

This is the most logical statement from my point of view because the Milky Way is mentioned with the Star card. This is an important relationship in my estimation.

" ... and Aquarius .. " -Huck

I don't think this green looking card is Aquarius. It looks more like Canis Major.

" and we've possibly the Milky Way (Hera with Hercules or Rhea with Jupiter myths) Alcyone and Ceyx myths are near to Hera and Zeus. The Milky way would be a natural object, if the card "Star" would have been interpreted in plural as "Stars". " -Huck

The fact that the Star card is singular is probably in reference to the fact that Sirius is so bright that it is considered a constellation in itself. Sirius is "The Star". That may also be a reason why "One Big Star" survived instead of "One big star and a number of stars surrounding it".

" At one time I wondered if she was 'La Source' of two rivers, perhaps the Tigris and Euphrates. But perhaps it's better to journey in hope than to arrive... (that's not to say that we have arrived though)." - Pen

Perhaps the Nile?

Anyway, here is the François Chosson Star with Sirius and the stars of Canis Major.

#xvii Star by François Chosson with Canis Major

xvii_François_Chosson+Canis-Major.jpg (179.33 KiB) Viewed 7682 times

The exact placement of the secondary stars must have changed to fit the card parameters.

"The inescapable fact that certain of the tarot trumps are, and always have been, instantly recognizable for what they are, even to people with no knowledge of symbolism or iconography, suggests (to me, at least), that the others originally had equally recognizable symbolism but time passed and people forgot what that was.
The inescapable fact that certain of the tarot trumps are, and always have been, instantly recognizable for what they are, even to people with no knowledge of symbolism or iconography, suggests (to me, at least), that the others originally had equally recognizable symbolism but time passed and people forgot what that was." - Pen

I agree with that statement because I think that the Tarot Major Arcana was a "Game of Constellations" that everyone knew what the pictures were because it was common knowledge what the constellations looked like.
- Cartomancer (Lance Carter)

Cartomancer wrote:I found statements from this thread about the Star card that I would like to respond to with my opinions.

"In classical imagery, the obvious interpretation for a female figure representing a Star is Venus (the Leber deck and the all-trumps Folengo sonnet confirm this in a Tarot context)." - Marco

My Question: Would you also include Isis as a female figure representing a Star? Isis is Egyptian, but does the Tarot imagery have to be Greek or Roman? Can there be a card in the Tarot Major Arcana that represents a constellation?

The short answer: No.

Marco is right - the star was originally Venus and subsequently misunderstood as “star”. The Visconti family linked its genealogy to that goddess and if you look at the earliest surviving representation of the “Star” – the PMB deck – you will notice that the woman pointing to the star differs from all of the other allegorical woman in that deck (Virtues, etc.) in that she alone has cleavage, to suggest the nudity associated with Venus. The model for this representation of Venus – a woman pointing towards an eight-pointed “star” to her left and/or right and/or writ large behind is Paduan and can be seen in manuscripts, the Palazzo Ragione and the Eremitani church there. Eremitani’s Venus and PMB Venus:

All things Egyptian stem from Court de Gébelin and his ilk, but has absolutely nothing to do with the origins of the cards, but is rather an 18th century concocted “new age” belief grafted onto a misunderstood artifact from the 15th century.