A character with near-godlike powers is only interesting when he's the bad guy, because of the challenge involved in defeating him. Red Son was my favorite Superman story precisely because he was the villain. A misguided and redeemable one, no less, which is the most interesting type. Well, generally, at least... the thought of the Joker having a good side to him makes me nauseous.

Sgt Otter:CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past. It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy. Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Well, that and Batman is human. Technically, anyone can kick his ass, which gives the writers a lot of freedom.

Superman, you're basically stuck with three options:

1. Kryptonite2. Magic3. Another super-being.

And when Superman has been brought to the screen (big or little), the writers have never been able to overcome this with any degree of imagination. Their thinking seems to be that nobody will accept magic, another super-being would have to be exactly like Superman, so the only thing they can do is have a normal villain get ahold of some kryptonite somehow. Or else spend endless and ultimately futile efforts trying to unmask Superman and take away his powers some other way.

Superman IS "boring" because he's been set up as pretty much invulnerable and flawless--nothing can hurt him, his backstory gives him no self-doubt or emotional problems, and he seems to exist merely to kick bad-guy ass. Christopher Reeves' Superman actually gave some depth to Clark Kent, made him a geeky nerd; which "Smallville" overused to the nth degree (Superman as emo). But there's no reason a decent writer couldn't rewrite Superman's backstory and give him a few more issues to work with; or else make him less invulnerable, so villains don't keep having to find kryptonite lying all over the place.

I'm not a big comics person, but this was one of the best original spins on Superman I've seen in awhile. (I know it's several years old at this point.) I wouldn't mind seeing a movie adaptation, though I'm not sure how that would play in Peoria.

Champion of the Sun:DarkPascual: BTW... what I said was totally from a narrative standpoint... Not being from the USA gives me certain difficulty to approach things the American way...

Inside every furriner is an American just waiting to get out. Buy some guns and worship the rich, and you'll be welcomed with open arms. You're white, right?

XD... I like guns, but more for the aesthetic value of them (I mean, the Colt .45 Dragoon is a GORGEOUS piece of machine)... Don't worship the rich (they SHOULD pay bigger taxes), but don't see the issue of rich people living rich lifestyles as long as their fortunes have been made ethically and honestly... Unfortunately, I'm a dirty socialist Latin... so no luck for my brown (if pale by our standards) ass... I do like pro-wrestling and Rocky IV in a non ironic way, does it count? XD

thornhill:The problem with Superman, is that if there's never any real risk of him dying -- he's not risking his life to save humanity. At most, it disrupts his personal life. And it's hard to feel bad for someone who's omnipotent.

I think that if people think that the reason that Superman is boring is the power level, that can be fixed. If it is for the type of character that Supes is, then it's simply not for them.

It's important to give it the right approach and even put him against the right villains (Darkseid, Imperiex, Zod, Doomsday, Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, President Luthor, probably any decent magic user... I think that Green Lantern could take Superman with the right mindset), and even take some liberties with the established canon and lower the power level. Certainly DC has done things to make Superman less invincible. Is still hard to take him out, but not impossible anymore...

And here is the other thing that I feel sometimes is overlooked about Superman... the guy may have the powers of the god and the biology of an alien, but at mind and heart, he is too human... too caring, too eager to do the right thing and too noble for his own good... Batman has stated many times that Supe's greatest weakness is not an irradiated stone, but that he has too much heart.

One of the reasons why I'm playing a Paladin in my D&D group... too much amoral anti-heroes there, and I always heard about the challenge of play a Paladin (or any Lawful Good character) the right way... BTW, now I have to check Supes vs The Elite, thanks for bring that up!

I think its because Superman can't be shoved into a boring idiosyncratic realism. Batman is totally unrealistic, but Nolan would suggest that he can be made more realistic somehow through the same shiat he does in all his movies. This is a man who the dreams of master criminal's totally farking boring. Superman needs to fight wizards and aliens and stuff like that. He needs to actually be a science fiction character in a science fiction story - part of a genre film - rather than what Nolan did, which was try and make all the science fiction characters fit into a crime drama.

Why does everyone seem to forget that in the first movie, Superman was also effectively foiled by the fact that even he could not be in two places at once? And his state of character would not allow him to break a promise even when it endangered his friends? Yes, there was also Kryptonite, but it wasn't the instakill plot device that seemed to be played out in later movies and stories.

There are also other things that can at least slow him down or weaken him without relying on magic or another super-being.

One of the real problems I had with Superman Returns wasn't that Superman was too powerful after returning from space. But that the Lex Luthor that was written in was basically a caricature of the Gene Hackman role, instead of the Crimelord/Mega-Entrepreneur with his own private army and obsession with ridding the world of "the alien" that was better portrayed in the comics and animated series.

Popcorn Johnny:kroonermanblack: Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

Because when you read a Batman comic or watch a movie, you're thinking that this could be the time that the caped crusader meets his end, right?

No, but he has to work to achieve his goals. There's actual risk to the character conceptually. He can have his back broken, or need to make a gizmo, or do things. Superman? None of that. There's no stress or issue, all he has to do to overcome obstacles? Stop stopping himself a fraction of a bit. That's it.

The character could be cool if he didn't have -every- super power, and didn't have them all at super-omega level strength, etc. Give him restraints and make him mortal instead of a god, and it could be a compelling read while still being super, but as is? Why would I care, he's just going to walk through it effortlessly.

kroonermanblack:Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

Unless we're taking away all the super powers that make the escapism cool, super man is a tits up boring character because he's a GOD. There's no training or difficulty for him to overcome, it's all worthless challenges. And when he DOES have a fight? It's farking super-sayan Dragon Ball Z levels of stupid 'blowing up the sun to power punch' strength. Those characters are tepidly boring to watch because there's no real risk or harm to them, so why care? Especially since he has EVERY super power known to man, and has it better than the premier exemplar of it anyway.

Imagine for a moment how much concentration is required for Clark Kent to shake someone's hand without crushing it into paste. Or to kiss Lois without crushing her face. or opening a car door without ripping it off. Superman doesn't get an off-day. He doesn't get to daydream or let his mind wander. He has to maintain that level of concentration 24/7, even in the midst of battle. This is a man who can literally crack the planet in half, and yet he chooses not to. Why? Because Superman's limits have never been physical, they are moral and ethical. This is a man who holds himself to a superhuman standard of conduct not simply because he wants to, but because he has to for the safety of everyone around him. Moreover, he knows that his greatest power is the ability to inspire humanity to greatness, but he has to exercise that power cautiously so that he doesn't instead make humanity feel small and weak in his presence. It's his greatest strength and his most glaring weakness. It's how his greatest enemies attack him. And that's where you find the best stories about Superman.

If Nolan's Batman movies are any indication, Lois Lane will be the weakest link. She'll be saddled with cringeworthy lines and try entirely too hard to act sexy. If she dies, it will be one of the worst deaths committed to film. Oh, and Maggie Cabbage Face will take over the role once Amy Adams leaves.

If Superman did exist he would think we were all quite boring. We were essentially born with Super Powers. Born into the 1st world at this time in history, we're better off than 98% of humans who ever existed. Most of us don't use it to help those in need though.

moothemagiccow:Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

and tv writersand movie writersand cartoon writersand novel writers

The first season of Smallville was pretty good, admittedly it got a lot worse as it went on.The first two Christopher Reeve-Superman movies were good.The Superman and Justice League/JLU cartoons were awesome.I can't speak for novels...

kroonermanblack:No, but he has to work to achieve his goals. There's actual risk to the character conceptually. He can have his back broken, or need to make a gizmo, or do things. Superman? None of that. There's no stress or issue, all he has to do to overcome obstacles? Stop stopping himself a fraction of a bit. That's it.

Superman has suffered all kinds of injuries and has even died. Sure he comes back from everything, but so does every other superhero out there.

Popcorn Johnny:kroonermanblack: No, but he has to work to achieve his goals. There's actual risk to the character conceptually. He can have his back broken, or need to make a gizmo, or do things. Superman? None of that. There's no stress or issue, all he has to do to overcome obstacles? Stop stopping himself a fraction of a bit. That's it.

Superman has suffered all kinds of injuries and has even died. Sure he comes back from everything, but so does every other superhero out there.

CPT Ethanolic:Batman is easier because of the "dark" past. It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy. Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Good point.

I think people see Superman as boring because he comes off as a Boy Scout - a 2D, goody-two-shoes that can't be or do anything controversial.

But that's just the product if limited imaginations.

First, you *can* make a "heroes' hero" interesting (but it does require a moral position; hard to do in a time where morality is so political, but not impossible).

Second, he's a frkn' ALIEN, so there's tons of fertile ground there.

Third, there's something they always gloss over with Superman: he's supposed to be a genius. It wouldn't be hard to write a story where he's using his mind and power to solve problems (bigger than crooked real estate schemes), and having to deal with those whose corrupt power is threatened by him.

Making Superman interesting means taking chances and taking risks with the story. Sadly his audience may not be amenable to that.

Mentat:Imagine for a moment how much concentration is required for Clark Kent to shake someone's hand without crushing it into paste. Or to kiss Lois without crushing her face. or opening a car door without ripping it off. Superman doesn't get an off-day. He doesn't get to daydream or let his mind wander. He has to maintain that level of concentration 24/7, even in the midst of battle. This is a man who can literally crack the planet in half, and yet he chooses not to. Why? Because Superman's limits have never been physical, they are moral and ethical. This is a man who holds himself to a superhuman standard of conduct not simply because he wants to, but because he has to for the safety of everyone around him. Moreover, he knows that his greatest power is the ability to inspire humanity to greatness, but he has to exercise that power cautiously so that he doesn't instead make humanity feel small and weak in his presence. It's his greatest strength and his most glaring weakness. It's how his greatest enemies attack him. And that's where you find the best stories about Superman.

Champion of the Sun:Wish they would just make a live action Dark Night Returns already. Only convincing foe for Superman that I've ever seen. John Hamm can finally play Superman. Not sure about Bruce though. Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy. Mickey Rourke could be a convincing Batman, but a horrible Bruce Wayne.

Champion of the Sun:Wish they would just make a live action Dark Night Returns already. Only convincing foe for Superman that I've ever seen. John Hamm can finally play Superman. Not sure about Bruce though. Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy. Mickey Rourke could be a convincing Batman, but a horrible Bruce Wayne.

I think Richard Armitage could be an awesome Batman, and Bruce Wayne. He just needs to drop the British accent, and he has the deep voice. He has the look down of Bruce to a T in the comics.

kroonermanblack:Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

The problem is also that he is conceptually really boring on most levels too. Superman? Hardly an on original name. Costume? Bland. Powers? Just a totally random bunch of powers grouped together for no reason (laser eyes, freeze breath, etc.) . On top of that, he is just a pure boy scout with no real personality.

You call him a god, but the gods of classic mythology had much more interesting back stories, names, powers, personalities, etc.

Of course, some of this is because he is (more of less) the first super hero. Although I'm not sure how much leeway we should give him there, since the writers of superman had thousands of years of literature to draw upon in creating a character.

Superman is only really interesting in comics when he isn't treated as a character really, but just as a pure archetype and then dealt with in some kind of meta way (see: Alan Moore's Supreme, Red Son, some of Grant Morrison's stuff)

Bill Frist:Champion of the Sun: DarkPascual: Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.

Yeah, we've lost our way. A little truth justice and the American way would be good right about now.

truly can't tell if these posts are serious

I was serious, but I mean it from a narrative perspective without trying to make any comment about any sort of socio-political stand point. Both Superman and Cap are the kind of character that are on the more selfless and idealistic side of the spectrum, as opposed to more cynical antiheroes, at least on the comics and stories that I've read, and I think that that kind of character is also needed to have variety in a story.

If that came across as some sort of judgment about... well, anything besides fictional stories, my apologies. I am not from the USA not living on the USA, so I rarely comment on anything about what happens inside that country...

moothemagiccow:Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

and tv writersand movie writersand cartoon writersand novel writers

This is like saying a rock isn't boring, it just takes the right kind of painter to paint a cool looking rock. Maybe true in theory, but anything that's farking boring CAN, in theory, be made interesting by a good writer. That doesn't make the original object not lame.

Lernaeus:CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past. It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy. Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Good point.

I think people see Superman as boring because he comes off as a Boy Scout - a 2D, goody-two-shoes that can't be or do anything controversial.

But that's just the product if limited imaginations.

First, you *can* make a "heroes' hero" interesting (but it does require a moral position; hard to do in a time where morality is so political, but not impossible).

Second, he's a frkn' ALIEN, so there's tons of fertile ground there.

Third, there's something they always gloss over with Superman: he's supposed to be a genius. It wouldn't be hard to write a story where he's using his mind and power to solve problems (bigger than crooked real estate schemes), and having to deal with those whose corrupt power is threatened by him.

Making Superman interesting means taking chances and taking risks with the story. Sadly his audience may not be amenable to that.

You've pretty much described All Star Superman. There really needs to be someone like who can take the best parts of the best Superman stories and make them into something really grand, like Nolan did with bits and pieces of Year One, The Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall, and No Man's Land. It doesn't have to be a straight adaption, it just needs to use good parts of the story. For example, I personally think that if you took elements of New Frontier and moved the story into the modern era, you would have the core of a good Justice League movie.

The only good stories with Superman with them are the one where Superman is a Commie and the one where Ra's gets Batman's files and manages to use them to shut down all of the JLA, including Superman - since Batman had it planned on how to lock that lame ass character down if necessary the whole time.

I was being serious about the truth justice and the American way thing. Yes, America has an ugly past but we at least paid lip service to a higher ideal. Now no one cares about justice as we kill people with drones. Superman probably wouldn't be cool with one in five American children going hungry. I can't remember the last time I heard truth out of any public figure, even the ones I kinda like

Champion of the Sun:I was being serious about the truth justice and the American way thing. Yes, America has an ugly past but we at least paid lip service to a higher ideal. Now no one cares about justice as we kill people with drones. Superman probably wouldn't be cool with one in five American children going hungry. I can't remember the last time I heard truth out of any public figure, even the ones I kinda like

In all seriousness, America holds up a much higher standard for "truth and justice" now than we did in any time in the past. While I'm no fan of drones, you really think they are worse than slavery? Internment camps? Making homosexuality illegal? Not allowing women or minorities (or non-property holding whites) to vote? Mass murdering native americans? Censoring books and works of art? Hollywood blacklisting?

texdent:jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman. Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.

Although, I think today a lot of people see[anitaabbasi.files.wordpress.com image 300x300]

As Clark/The Blur/Superman

Who gives a fark who plays superman.THIS is the only person who has any business playing Lois Lane:Sadly, that's the largest pic I could find of that particular shot, that showed up reliably in the opening credits of every episode.

Bill Frist:Like, you think Superman wouldn't be cool with one in five children going hungry but... he was cool with the mass poverty and hunger of Hoover's presidency? (Superman was created in 1932)

Pretty sure there were references to all that in the comics of the time, and he wasn't the superman we know until later. The creators were first generation Jewish Americans, so they had some political opinions that weren't easy to air out in the open. And the truth justice and American way thing wasn't added til the radio show after the war, when others had taken over the character. I don't understand your dickery, or your absence and reappearance on fark. And his whole shtick was about social justice. You got some sort of tardation. I said we lost our way, not superman. And I also said we paid lip service to a higher ideal regardless of our actions. Our faults are currently less evil than in the past, but our ideals are short shrift more than ever. Now please, misinterpret a snippet of what I said and belabor a point no one cares about.

I'm sick to shiat of Wolverine and Deadpool and their like, and this idea that it's only got ethos or pathos if it's grimdark. I reread this...

...over Christmas. It was an amazing reminder of why Superman's always been my hero.

I'm glad that someone mentioned Superman vs. The Elite. Awesome movie. The animated DC movies have knocked it out of the park for the most part. Also check out the adaptation of All-Star Superman. A couple of the greatest Superman films made right there.

Champion of the Sun:And his whole shtick was about social justice. You got some sort of tardation. I said we lost our way, not superman. And I also said we paid lip service to a higher ideal regardless of our actions. Our faults are currently less evil than in the past, but our ideals are short shrift more than ever. Now please, misinterpret a snippet of what I said and belabor a point no one cares about.

I still think this is pure nonsense, but sorry I questioned your poorly thought out comments and made you feel bad :( if only superman was here to show fark users the American way like he used to be in the good old days.