The irony of the analogy is that I have never done any of those three things. I didn't expect to be called arrogant because I disliked the attitude of people with more experience than me. All I came to this forum for was advice on what to do on the next 100 or so jumps to make me a great canopy pilot. I didn't ask how to swoop, how quickly to downsize or how many jumps I need. Half the people replying praised me for wanting to be good. The other half hated me for wanting to be as good as them, and gave me the usual 'you're not good enough' speech in one form or another. It's all very well accusing me of acting arrogant, but sometimes it pays for all of us to look in the mirror.

>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping.

It's a shame you felt the need to post that. It shows exactly the wrong attitude for learning to swoop.

You have to be humble and always ready to admit when you fucked up during this progression, otherwise the ground will come up fast an humble the fuck out of you.

You will make mistakes during this progression (while you are gaining experience). If you are both sensible and lucky you will survive long enough to get good at it but if you try to cut corners like you post above suggests you might then prepare to become very close friends with pain.

I bounced hard (100' from first to last points of impact) doing a 90* turn with a Sabre2 150 and was lucky enough to walk away. It shook me up badly and could possibly be the best thing that could have happened to me. I hope you're that lucky WHEN you hit the ground hard.

There is a lot of theory to learn to be able to swoop well and safely, and then it takes hundreds and hundreds of jumps to apply that theory. That's what people mean by experience.

I was you. I have survived so far. But much more through luck and constantly picking the brains of experienced canopy pilots than my own skill and talent.

The other half hated me for wanting to be as good as them, and gave me the usual 'you're not good enough' speech in one form or another

Sure, that's it. Everyone is trying to keep you down so you don't get as good as them. Can you imagine the effect it would have on my life if a jumper on another continent was to become as good at swooping as I am? Or even better?

I would have to change my name, leave my family, and assume a new identity if that happened. Even then, I'm pretty sure that the shame would dirve me to drink and eventually pull a Hemingway one night in a drunken stupor.

Get over yourself Nancy. Nobody is worried about your success in any way. I don't care if you become the greatest swooper of all time, it's not going to change my life one ounce. The concern is here is about your possible failure, and what that entails. Even then, that wouldn't effect my life either, but I would hate to see it happen to ANOTHER young jumper who it seems just couldn't keep a handle want they think they want.

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping.

Hey guy I only have 550 jumps okay. Guess what I am a new jumper too, so I am not patronizing anyone. That's right 3 years in the sport, 500+ jumps, a tandem instructor, and guess what I am a "newer jumper." At least I still consider myself one. I guess it is all in ones perspective. Do the students consider me "experienced?" Well yes, I guess, but I know guys that were jumping before I was even alive. That is "experience" to me. I don't think anyone on this thread said you need X amount of jumps before you swoop. If they did I must have missed it, please excuse me. What was said is that you need to work on your accuracy in the pattern. Now from "experience" I can tell you that USUALLY will take a hundred or maybe even two hundred just get down consistently in all conditions. AggieDave told you the top guys are still constantly refining their accuracy....hmmmm.

Remember that Nick Batsch guy I mentioned? Well he basically started to learn to swoop right after getting his A license. As a student he hit the peas EVERY time though. Are you? I am telling you he is a freak. He has rare, almost uncanny, talent. Do you? Hell I don't know, but what I can tell you is Nick used to wear pads and bounce all over the place when he first started. The guys around here swear he must be made of rubber. If someone with his talent has landed hard several times won't you too? You will and I just pray it isunder a larger parachute. He is the most competetive person I have ever met. Everything from his personality to his body's build is perfect for swooping. Well okay he is smaller so he does have to wear a shit ton of weight when competing, but that is irrelevant. I know I am not like that. I am happy just getting my turf surf on from a relatively conservative 90 degree front riser turn. Of course i don't have the desire to be the world's best like you though.

Listen man, get coaching. Get it from a qualified coach, and take it slow. Trying to rush through the foundation will only end in a high speed impact with the earth. You really got some of the best advice I have ever heard from AggieDave. Take his post, print it out, do what he said, and get to work man. The google picture of the LZ lamenated is brilliant. It will take awhile but it will pay off ten fold if you ever make it to the podium. I would rather see you make it there, then in a wheelchair or worse. It's not about X number of jumps, it is about having the necessary tools in your toolbox to help you survive the most dangerous discipline in our sport. How long will it take to acquire the necessary tools? That depends on how hard you train, and your skill. None of us here know you, so that is what a coach is for. Get with one.

If you do it right, and you have been truly blessed with some amazing skill you MIGHT have the chance to be as good as the guy in this video one day.

The other half hated me for wanting to be as good as them, and gave me the usual 'you're not good enough' speech in one form or another.

The top swoopers want you to out swoop them. Look at Greg Windmiller, he was an accomplished jumper with the Golden Knights when the GKs decided to have a swoop team. Greg and his teammate Chris were sent to coaching with Ian, Tagle and Nick (among a couple of others) and they were all proud of Greg when he got his pro-card and then started earning medals. They were proud of their student and they were proud to have a new friend to compete against, someone to help drive them to refine their skills even further.

However, this sport is littered with the broken remains of young jumpers (in experience, not always age) who wouldn't head advice and wouldn't take any help. The same excuse you said above was given by those same jumpers. The last really obvious example on DZ.com was Sangi, he refused to listen because he had "mad skills" and had the same attitude you have displayed. He's lucky he isn't dead, but he is crippled for life now.

Try the advice in this thread, both kinds of advice that has been given: skills training and attitude training. Accomplishing both of those will take you very far along the path to your skydiving goals. I want to see you have a long jumping career and be a top swooper, but right now it looks like you're headed down the same path Sangi did.

All I came to this forum for was advice on what to do on the next 100 or so jumps to make me a great canopy pilot.

I think AggieDave gave you your task for the next 100 jumps. IMHO it was the best advice I have ever heard given to someone over the internet for free. Usually guys with his "experience" get paid for it.

All I came to this forum for was advice on what to do on the next 100 or so jumps to make me a great canopy pilot.

I think AggieDave gave you your task for the next 100 jumps. IMHO it was the best advice I have ever heard given to someone over the internet for free. Usually guys with his "experience" get paid for it.

Thank you.

You're right, this is part of three different learning modules for the Canopy Flight Foundations course I taught and I charged money to attend that course.

The course started by covering the fundamentals of how a canopy flew and why. What the recovery arc is, how it effects non-swoopers and your pattern, how it effects your landing flare and continued on to using that knowledge to build your landing patterns. Then it covered stalls, different kinds of stalls. Then we covered flat turns, since you really had to know stalls to know flat turns and then we covered long spot and strange winds. The long spot and strange winds covered a lot about body position. There was a jump after each module where you would go up on a hop-n-pop and practice the covered material for a landing that was videoed and debriefed.

Although I'm not teaching any courses right now (see the Taking a break thread in Bonfire), there are plenty of other good canopy pilots teaching similar courses. Scott Miller was my go to guy when I was learning, but he's out of the sport right now too. Flight-1 is a good default, those PDFT guys (and gal) are top notch and teach a great course. Nick has a course, Windmiller teaches a course...take the top 20 swoopers from nationals this past year and just about all of them teach a similar course.

The information is out there and easily obtained, it comes down to a willingness to accept the training and finding a coach that you can relate to well enough to learn it.

Under the BPA there is a qualification called CP1 (canopy piloting grade 1) which is designed to put some kind of rigid training in place for would be swoopers. In order to start training for CP1 (read that as starting high performance landings) you first need a C certificate and that involves having at least 200 jumps plus a B cert, plus a grade 1 in something else.

In reply to:

I've got my B licence stuff to sort out, but I should complete that fairly soon. For people familiar with the BPA system, I also need a grade 1 for my C licence, any ideas? As I said before, I was turned off by FS.

You have 3 choices. FS1, FF1 or IS1. For all practical purposes, an FF1 requires an FS1 before you can start on it. Almost no one does individual style (IS1) anymore but in theory you could get one if you could find someone to grade you for it. That leaves you with your best and realistically your only bet: FS1.

You may not like it but thems the rules and if you want to go forward I am afraid you will have to lump it.

I'll never forget my first trip to a DZ. After the class I was watching the guys come flying in so cool, I thought I have to do that. That was 1983, they were flying stratoclouds. I can only imagine how a first timer looks at some cool swoop and thinks the same thing...wow I wanna do that. Now there's a lot higher price to pay, years of jumping and training and some are just too impatient to understand the consequences of rushing it.

Your focusing on the giver, and not the reciever. In this case, the reciever is a guy who posted that he thought the concept of 'experience' was developed for the sole purpose of keeping the newbies down. Do you really think any approach from a 'giver' is going to get through to a guy with that mentality?

There are two sides to every coin, and they each stand an equal chance of being wrong in any situation. In this case, I'm pretty sure I know which side of the coin gets my vote for being the 'problem'.

>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping. Don't get me wrong, I admire your wisdom and your input.

Edit: Thanks to everybody in this thread for the advice by the way.

Wow! Pulled off the condescending post in most French fashion. No pardon granted dude as your attitude is already in the corner and really is not welcome as it just will get you or someone else hurt or killed.

Can I have number 133 please

all of your posts are you predicting people's deaths. how do you feel about being such a great contributor to the site?

It is the truth that apparently both of us have learned ourselves from lucky ass bounces. I have video of mine I would post if I thought it would do any good for the OP. Mine doesn't sound as bad as yours as I went nowhere near 100 feet but it still was a wake up call that I needed to slow down and learn the foundations properly. AggieDave sent me a PM awhile back with all the information he just gave this guy. Top notch stuff for FREE.

If the poster is serious about being the worlds best one day he will slow down and take the time to learn that "boring" foundation work. If not he will be another Sangi. Constructive or not the truth is the truth. I doubt even Aggie's advice was "constructive" to the OP because from his displayed attitude it seems to most likely fall on deaf ears. It wasn't what he wanted to hear.

You have 3 choices. FS1, FF1 or IS1. For all practical purposes, an FF1 requires an FS1 before you can start on it. Almost no one does individual style (IS1) anymore but in theory you could get one if you could find someone to grade you for it. That leaves you with your best and realistically your only bet: FS1.

What about CF1??? I would say that's the best option since it's all about canopy skills and awareness.

On a side note, FF1 definitely does not require and FS1 before you start it and I'm pretty sure you can get your FF1 before you have FS1 - it's just that everyone is advised to do FS1 first.... I'm not saying I think it's a good idea do batter in and get FF1 done before FS1 by the way, just saying that I don't think there are any actual rules against it.

If the poster is serious about being the worlds best one day he will slow down and take the time to learn that "boring" foundation work.

What have I done that was a rush? What do I need to slow down?

Really? Your comment about "experience" and so many jump numbers speaks volumes man.

Listen just like DocPop stated I was you. He was you. Hell I bet even AggieDave was like you at one time. Anyone that swoops by definition is a push the envelope kind of person man. You aren't any different or special......YET. If you want to be, I have already told you what to do. Print out Dave's reply on accuracy in the pattern. Do exactly what he said. Count on doing just that for the next 100-200 jumps before ever thinking about swooping. Build your foundation. You have NO idea how valuable that information he gave you is. People pay for it.

At your experience level you don't know what you don't know man. Read Brian Germain's book the parachute and it's pilot. Get a coach that it is an experienced competetive canopy pilot.

Even if you do all of these things you WILL find yourself in the corner one day. Every canopy pilot does. Will you even recognize it in time? Will you freeze? I did. So did Sangi. There are a ton of guys like Ian, Dave, and so on that will preach wringing the shit out of the large parachutes first. Trust them when they say it will make you a better canopy pilot in the long run. Those guys really do thrive off of competetion. No one will try to hold you back. They actually want to see you succeed. Your current attitude however just shows another statistic in the making.

I understand how pissing off hearing about "experience" can be when you ask a question. I asked about swooping when I had about 250 jumps and I was simply told to fuck off, it's dangerous and I don't have the experience.

I swooped anyway. Looked at people, tried to take it slow, but had to figure it out kinda on my own untill I showed I was worthy of an explanation. This could have gone wrong in sooooooo many ways. And it HAS gone wrong for others. Nowadays, we have Pablo Hernandez coming to give seminars on a yearly basis and the swoop culture has changed, luckily.

Here we have a bunch of patient and dedicated people that are giving a wide range of WHY you should take your time, and HOW you should do it.

To me, this is gold. It's people like that I wish I met. Many posts here show a great deal of humility even if posters have obviously considerable EXPERIENCE. And this is one thing I hope you can get out of this. Humility is key to survive untill you have "considerable experience". Either that or luck.

You have 3 choices. FS1, FF1 or IS1. For all practical purposes, an FF1 requires an FS1 before you can start on it. Almost no one does individual style (IS1) anymore but in theory you could get one if you could find someone to grade you for it. That leaves you with your best and realistically your only bet: FS1.

What about CF1??? I would say that's the best option since it's all about canopy skills and awareness.

On a side note, FF1 definitely does not require and FS1 before you start it and I'm pretty sure you can get your FF1 before you have FS1 - it's just that everyone is advised to do FS1 first.... I'm not saying I think it's a good idea do batter in and get FF1 done before FS1 by the way, just saying that I don't think there are any actual rules against it.

Oops, you're right, you can do a CF1. A lot of instructors like you to have 150-200 jumps before you start though.

As far as FF1 goes, you need to demonstrate the ability to do everything in the FS1 syllabus except the 4 way qualification jump which is why I said for all practical purposes you need an FS1. Again, you're right you don't actually need an FS1 sticker, just 90% of the training.

>Just don't get it in your mind that you can do it quickly, it just plain takes awhile to build the kind of experience you need.

>experience

If you'll excuse my French, I really fucking hate that word. It's a word that doesn't really mean anything. It's just a word that's used to patronise newer jumpers in my opinion. Please don't tell me or anyone else that I need more 'experience' or 'x amount of jump numbers' to start swooping. Don't get me wrong, I admire your wisdom and your input.

Edit: Thanks to everybody in this thread for the advice by the way.

Really.... Reaallllyyy....??...?..?

You pick myyyyyy post to act like a jerk. I just don't get it, I mean I essentially came on here defending the fact that up-thread people were being unreasonable in their responses, that you were just a guy who wants to know where to go and what to learn on AND I gave you some helpful things to think about.

Let me say this a little louder... to be GOOD at swooping you NEED LOTS OF FUCKING EXPERIENCE PERIOD. I didn't say you can't start learning till you have lots of experience, I said, don't expect to be very good at it at first, or very quickly, there aren't any shortcuts.

I mean, you're disproving my whole argument that it pays to be nice to people on here and try and help. Shape up. Experience is a word used to describe what those of us have who managed to NOT DIE and not horribly mangle our bodies while having a whole lot of fun. You get that experience by doing.

I generally tell people whatever I want to tell them, they can take it or leave it. That goes in person too if you ask anyone who knows me.

In one sentence you say 'experience' doesn't mean anything, but then you "admire" my wisdom, (which coincidentally, comes from my experience) so which is it.

Really frustrating man.

Go re-read the constructive posts of this thread again, then go make skydives. Get a coach to teach you how to swoop.

As for experienced people trying to "keep everyone else down" I am really getting sick of hearing that. Why on earth would I care how good you are or not. :boggle:

I jump out of planes cause I like the feeling of flying, if you can out swoop me, go right ahead, wtf do I care. I don't even compete.