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Lance Armstrong

He did not pass them all however. But somehow managed to still get away.

some tour de france official said like 3 times in a interview "he did pass all the tests".

it's to confusing. i'm just going to wait on the final rapport. and rest the case whit that.

[quote]He did not pass them all however. But somehow managed to still get away.[/quote]\r\n\r\nsome tour de france official said like 3 times in a interview "he did pass all the tests".\r\n\r\nit's to confusing. i'm just going to wait on the final rapport. and rest the case whit that.

it's to confusing. i'm just going to wait on the final rapport. and rest the case whit that.

I doubt there'll ever be a "final report" because people will always have their doubts. Stupidly biased media will always say otherwise, and stupid people will either believed or argue the facts blindly.

[quote]it's to confusing. i'm just going to wait on the final rapport. and rest the case whit that.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI doubt there'll ever be a "final report" because people will always have their doubts. Stupidly biased media will always say otherwise, and stupid people will either believed or argue the facts blindly.

I doubt there'll ever be a "final report" because people will always have their doubts. Stupidly biased media will always say otherwise, and stupid people will either believed or argue the facts blindly.

there will be a official final rapport sometime. and i mend that.i'm not going to care what the media and random people are going to say.

so i'm out of here. =)

[quote]I doubt there'll ever be a "final report" because people will always have their doubts. Stupidly biased media will always say otherwise, and stupid people will either believed or argue the facts blindly.[/quote]\r\n\r\nthere will be a official final rapport sometime. and i mend that.\r\ni'm not going to care what the media and random people are going to say.\r\n\r\nso i'm out of here. =)

From the comments you make, it sounds like you are trying to rouse up a witch hunt against this Lance Armstrong guy and are paranoid about the government and how "corrupt" they are. I do not believe you would listen to any type of reasonable arguments considering your immature comments like "Because FBI are the bleeping gods now?" That is not a valid come back or argument.

Lance is not clean. Never has been.

Opinion of yours, not a fact.

Maybe they have new evidence? People started to talk?

So you believe Armstrong is guilty because of "maybes" and ifs?

I don't know about you or anyone else, but I have this crazy notion of believing people aren't out to get us and the government + FBI are mostly in-corrupt, especially about things like drug testing, so I tend to believe in the facts and FBI and not random groups coming in doing their own "investigations".

[quote]Because FBI are the bleeping gods now?\r\n\r\n[/quote]From the comments you make, it sounds like you are trying to rouse up a witch hunt against this Lance Armstrong guy and are paranoid about the government and how "corrupt" they are. I do not believe you would listen to any type of reasonable arguments considering your immature comments like "Because FBI are the bleeping gods now?" That is not a valid come back or argument.\r\n\r\n[quote] Lance is not clean. Never has been.\r\n\r\n[/quote]Opinion of yours, not a fact.\r\n\r\n[quote]Maybe they have new evidence? People started to talk?\r\n\r\n[/quote]So you believe Armstrong is guilty because of "maybes" and ifs?\r\n\r\nI don't know about you or anyone else, but I have this crazy notion of believing people aren't out to get us and the government + FBI are mostly in-corrupt, especially about things like drug testing, so I tend to believe in the facts and FBI and not random groups coming in doing their own "investigations".

My previous comments were a bit arrogant and heated, I admit. Still there are issues I just cannot ignore.

First, I never heard that thing about the FBI in any news. Doesn't have to mean anything. But I ask you, how could this investigation successfully bring Lance down, if the FBI had any valid proof of his innocence? The way it sounded, the FBI merely deemed some people unreliable and called it quits. I dunno, but maybe if you show me I could revise my opinion.

Second, he might seem like a great guy with his foundation and all, but those are all sentimental arguments that absolutely do not proove anything. Cyclist legend or not, "good guy" or not; who cares. Actually, all this fuss was made around that trial because of that; there are dozens other cases like these in the cyclism world, but noone speaks about it because it's not Lance. But he's by far not the first. And as I said, the Tour de France is a doping nest. It isn't that surprising, and actually, many people like me always suspected him to dope himself. He has done performances almost impossible to do without doping, over and over; and I know you like to believe in miracles and wonderpeople, but this was going too far.

My previous comments were a bit arrogant and heated, I admit. Still there are issues I just cannot ignore. \r\n\r\nFirst, I never heard that thing about the FBI in any news. Doesn't have to mean anything. But I ask you, how could this investigation successfully bring Lance down, if the FBI had any valid proof of his innocence? The way it sounded, the FBI merely deemed some people unreliable and called it quits. I dunno, but maybe if you show me I could revise my opinion.\r\n\r\nSecond, he might seem like a great guy with his foundation and all, but those are all sentimental arguments that absolutely do not proove anything. Cyclist legend or not, "good guy" or not; who cares. Actually, all this fuss was made around that trial because of that; there are dozens other cases like these in the cyclism world, but noone speaks about it because it's not Lance. But he's by far not the first. And as I said, the Tour de France is a doping nest. It isn't that surprising, and actually, many people like me always suspected him to dope himself. He has done performances almost impossible to do without doping, over and over; and I know you like to believe in miracles and wonderpeople, but this was going too far.

Well if you did search on google it does show that the federal government did follow and investigate Armstrong for about two years and then dropped the investigations.

He has done performances almost impossible to do without doping, over and over; and I know you like to believe in miracles and wonderpeople, but this was going too far.

Baseless claims. Because I'm defending Armstrong I'm an escapist now?

[quote]Second, he might seem like a great guy with his foundation and all, but those are all sentimental arguments that absolutely do not proove anything. Cyclist legend or not, "good guy" or not; who cares\r\n\r\n[/quote]Things like donating to charities is a character witness, it shows the morals of the said person, and shows whether or not the person is more likely to do something such as doping or not.\r\n\r\n[quote]But I ask you, how could this investigation successfully bring Lance down, if the FBI had any valid proof of his innocence?\r\n\r\n[/quote]Perhaps because he refused to fight back and chose not to enter into arbitration (because of reasons linked below)?\r\n\r\n[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/24/lance-armstrong-fight-doping-charges]\r\n\r\n[quote]First, I never heard that thing about the FBI in any news. \r\n\r\n[/quote]Well if you did search on google it does show that the federal government did follow and investigate Armstrong for about two years and then dropped the investigations.\r\n\r\n[quote] He has done performances almost impossible to do without doping, over and over; and I know you like to believe in miracles and wonderpeople, but this was going too far.\r\n\r\n[/quote]Baseless claims. Because I'm defending Armstrong I'm an escapist now?

Things like donating to charities is a character witness, it shows the morals of the said person, and shows whether or not the person is more likely to do something such as doping or not.

I still fail to see how that would have prevented him from taking drugs. "More likely to"? You went down to my level

Baseless claims.

What about this comment? It's also mere accusations, but just think about it:

"Look at it this way. Every single big name that Armstring beat like a drum has been suspended for doping. Alex Zulle (1999), Jan Ullrich (2000, 2001, 2003), Andreas KlÃ¶den (2004), Ivan Basso (2005), not to mention other big names like Flloyd Landis, Richard Virenque, Alexandre Vinkourov, Bjarne Riis, Tyler Hamilton and on and on. You're going to tell me that Lance Amrstrong was soooooo naturally good that he could beat these guys as badly as he did while they were on performance enhancing drugs and he wasn't?"Source

Because I'm defending Armstrong I'm an escapist now?

Never said that. A tad naive, perhaps.

Armstrong did not do that all alone, he had a lot of contacts. Here are some taken from this article:

Johan Bruyneel: He was Armstrongs chef in all seven victories. USADA says he was a central figure in the drug programs of the teams US Portal and Discovery Channel.

Michele Ferrari: The attorney's office of Padua claims this doctor, a former doctor of Armstrong, made a million business by selling drugs to athletes, among others also to Armstrongs team. In 2002, the Italian cycling association forbade all italian cyclists to contact Ferrari; that same association gave him a lifelong activity ban in 2006. In 2004, Ferrari was sentenced for sports fraud.

Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis: Former team members of Armstrong, they were both found guilty of doping later on and in their confessions also incriminated Armstrong.

Hein Verbruggen: Former UCI president, claimed that Armstrong is living proof of a cyclist that never uses drugs, but before that the UCI is accused to have covered in 1999 and 2001 positive drug tests of Armstrong.

Finally, there's also this article that I am not going to translate (you can use google translator :P), but it talks also of Lances connections to Ferrari, connections that he denied before the court. It also confirms that he was tested positive for corticoids in 1999, and that he provided an antedated medical certificate allowing him to take some, and the UCI left the charges. There's also quite a lot about what the witnesses told (like them being threatened by him and so), but I don't think you will attach much importance to what several people witness.

[quote]Things like donating to charities is a character witness, it shows the morals of the said person, and shows whether or not the person is more likely to do something such as doping or not.[/quote]\r\nI still fail to see how that would have prevented him from taking drugs. "More likely to"? You went down to my level ;)\r\n\r\n[quote]Baseless claims. [/quote]\r\nWhat about this comment? It's also mere accusations, but just think about it:\r\n\r\n[i]"Look at it this way. Every single big name that Armstring beat like a drum has been suspended for doping. Alex Zulle (1999), Jan Ullrich (2000, 2001, 2003), Andreas KlÃ¶den (2004), Ivan Basso (2005), not to mention other big names like Flloyd Landis, Richard Virenque, Alexandre Vinkourov, Bjarne Riis, Tyler Hamilton and on and on. You're going to tell me that Lance Amrstrong was soooooo naturally good that he could beat these guys as badly as he did while they were on performance enhancing drugs and he wasn't?"[/i]\r\n[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-federal-case-is-closed-as-us-attorneys-office-ends-probe/2012/02/03/gIQARWk5nQ_story.html]Source[/url]\r\n\r\n[quote]Because I'm defending Armstrong I'm an escapist now?[/quote]\r\nNever said that. A tad naive, perhaps. \r\n\r\nArmstrong did not do that all alone, he had a lot of contacts. Here are some taken from this [url=http://www.bluewin.ch/de/index.php/49,687964/Die_wichtigsten_Hintermaenner_der_Affaere_Armstrong/de/sport/sport/sda/]article[/url]:\r\n\r\n[b]Johan Bruyneel[/b]: He was Armstrongs chef in all seven victories. USADA says he was a central figure in the drug programs of the teams US Portal and Discovery Channel. \r\n\r\n[b]Michele Ferrari[/b]: The attorney's office of Padua claims this doctor, a former doctor of Armstrong, made a million business by selling drugs to athletes, among others also to Armstrongs team. In 2002, the Italian cycling association forbade all italian cyclists to contact Ferrari; that same association gave him a lifelong activity ban in 2006. In 2004, Ferrari was sentenced for sports fraud. \r\n\r\n[b]Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis:[/b] Former team members of Armstrong, they were both found guilty of doping later on and in their confessions also incriminated Armstrong. \r\n\r\n[b]Hein Verbruggen:[/b] Former UCI president, claimed that Armstrong is living proof of a cyclist that never uses drugs, but before that the UCI is accused to have covered in 1999 and 2001 positive drug tests of Armstrong. \r\n\r\nFinally, there's also this [url=http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2012/10/11/le-systeme-armstrong-decrypte-par-l-agence-americain-antidopage_1773304_3242.html]article[/url] that I am not going to translate (you can use google translator :P), but it talks also of Lances connections to Ferrari, connections that he denied before the court. It also confirms that he was tested positive for corticoids in 1999, and that he provided an antedated medical certificate allowing him to take some, and the UCI left the charges. \r\nThere's also quite a lot about what the witnesses told (like them being threatened by him and so), but I don't think you will attach much importance to what several people witness.

Von, i think you got over offended. This is the way we talk in Armor games, sarcasem and Cynicism. So the FBI are the Blessed by god seeing only the truth and nothing else?

Ill ask you a question - why would the FBI arrest one of the best known and awared winner around the world USAian {American}? One of the best cyclist of all times, winnig hte TTF 7 times in a row?

So no, i dont say the FBI is a evil mastermind organization like some peoples in USA say Immediately after such Accusations, but what one person tag as "unreliable" other may consider otherwise. The Fbi is not always correct. Iraq 'Nuke making tracks' ring the bells?

In first, i didnt belived that he was using drugs too. He seems so, as you said, 'moral' and 'good guy'. But after more then 100 peoples Testified, and some evidence were founded, its seems more and more like he was a cheater. He was found using drugs way back, forgot the year, but his doctor said it was a "medicen agaisnt butt pains" or something. He left some races in suspicios circumstances.

And yes. its a blind defending. Its hard to see a model die. And a 'star' in his size is even harder. So you got two options - accept the trial and the judge truth, or belive thet everyone ploted to blow him down, his team mates, his doctors. The Organizers, which used lance glory to attract more peoples for it, Peopels around the world which will watch teh race and rise the rating. So its not a "small group". Its not "them". who is "them"? death eaters? nazgols? who is the "them" you talk about?home elfs? "1) acusing lance. 2) make him lose in the trial 3) ? 4) profit." {southpark referenc}?

By the way dude, its not the first time he got acused. But then the acuser were single peoples, now its all of them together.

Von, i think you got over offended. This is the way we talk in Armor games, sarcasem and Cynicism. So the FBI are the Blessed by god seeing only the truth and nothing else?\r\n\r\nIll ask you a question - why would the FBI arrest one of the best known and awared winner around the world USAian {American}? One of the best cyclist of all times, winnig hte TTF 7 times in a row?\r\n\r\nSo no, i dont say the FBI is a evil mastermind organization like some peoples in USA say Immediately after such Accusations, but what one person tag as "unreliable" other may consider otherwise. The Fbi is not always correct. Iraq 'Nuke making tracks' ring the bells?\r\n\r\nIn first, i didnt belived that he was using drugs too. He seems so, as you said, 'moral' and 'good guy'. But after more then 100 peoples Testified, and some evidence were founded, its seems more and more like he was a cheater. He was found using drugs way back, forgot the year, but his doctor said it was a "medicen agaisnt butt pains" or something. He left some races in suspicios circumstances.\r\n\r\nAnd yes. its a blind defending. Its hard to see a model die. And a 'star' in his size is even harder. \r\nSo you got two options - accept the trial and the judge truth, or belive thet everyone ploted to blow him down, his team mates, his doctors. The Organizers, which used lance glory to attract more peoples for it, Peopels around the world which will watch teh race and rise the rating. So its not a "small group". Its not "them". who is "them"? death eaters? nazgols? who is the "them" you talk about?\r\nhome elfs? "1) acusing lance. 2) make him lose in the trial 3) ? 4) profit." {southpark referenc}? \r\n\r\nBy the way dude, its not the first time he got acused. But then the acuser were single peoples, now its all of them together.

I want Lance Armstrong to be innocent of doping. I want him to be the one of the few cyclists in that era to be clear of taking performance enhancing drugs. At the same time the commentators on the radio seem pretty convinced that he is guilty and they're in a better position to tell than I am [they've read the evidence and aome of them know about cycling]. I feel sad that he's fallen from his pedestal, and then there's the empty space where the 'winner' of those Tour de Frances was. I suppose it's a sad reflection on how bad the cheating was at that time.

I want Lance Armstrong to be innocent of doping. I want him to be the one of the few cyclists in that era to be clear of taking performance enhancing drugs. At the same time the commentators on the radio seem pretty convinced that he is guilty and they're in a better position to tell than I am [they've read the evidence and aome of them know about cycling]. I feel sad that he's fallen from his pedestal, and then there's the empty space where the 'winner' of those Tour de Frances was. I suppose it's a sad reflection on how bad the cheating was at that time.

I want Lance Armstrong to be innocent of doping. I want him to be the one of the few cyclists in that era to be clear of taking performance enhancing drugs. At the same time the commentators on the radio seem pretty convinced that he is guilty and they're in a better position to tell than I am [they've read the evidence and aome of them know about cycling]. I feel sad that he's fallen from his pedestal, and then there's the empty space where the 'winner' of those Tour de Frances was. I suppose it's a sad reflection on how bad the cheating was at that time.

I makes me sad too because Lance was a model for all the young Americans who like to race. Unfortunately, there's big money to be made so people cheat. Lance is not the only one. It seems that there's 2 or 3 riders every year who get in trouble during the TDF. I wish all the doping was banned so that everyone has a chance to win because they train hard and have a dream of becoming champion.

Anyway, it's not the end of the World because there are many young riders in the US who have a chance to become champion one day.

[quote]I want Lance Armstrong to be innocent of doping. I want him to be the one of the few cyclists in that era to be clear of taking performance enhancing drugs. At the same time the commentators on the radio seem pretty convinced that he is guilty and they're in a better position to tell than I am [they've read the evidence and aome of them know about cycling]. I feel sad that he's fallen from his pedestal, and then there's the empty space where the 'winner' of those Tour de Frances was. I suppose it's a sad reflection on how bad the cheating was at that time.[/quote]\r\nI makes me sad too because Lance was a model for all the young Americans who like to race. Unfortunately, there's big money to be made so people cheat. Lance is not the only one. It seems that there's 2 or 3 riders every year who get in trouble during the TDF. \r\nI wish all the doping was banned so that everyone has a chance to win because they train hard and have a dream of becoming champion.\r\n\r\nAnyway, it's not the end of the World because there are many young riders in the US who have a chance to become champion one day.

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