Christ, what a mess.... The speed is impressive, but it sounds like you have at most 50% of the notes right. Why not practice at half speed and try to get 95% right ? And how do you get so much hiss in the recording I wonder ?

I think you are to hard with your comments. Not everyone is that good a you are. Maybe you need to try to comment to recordings of others so that they going to study harder.

Yes I know it was quite hard. And it's not as if I can do this one any better myself...
But this is simply too sloppy, many bars are barely approximating the truth. There is no way to be nice about that, and any teacher would say the same. I'm sure this will not robot from practicing it more ...

I think you are to hard with your comments. Not everyone is that good a you are. Maybe you need to try to comment to recordings of others so that they going to study harder.

Yes I know it was quite hard. And it's not as if I can do this one any better myself...
But this is simply too sloppy, many bars are barely approximating the truth. There is no way to be nice about that, and any teacher or critic would say the same. I'm sure this will not stop robot from practicing it more.

I think you are to hard with your comments. Not everyone is that good a you are. Maybe you need to try to comment to recordings of others so that they going to study harder.

Yes I know it was quite hard. And it's not as if I can do this one any better myself...But this is simply too sloppy, many bars are barely approximating the truth. There is no way to be nice about that, and any teacher would say the same. I'm sure this will not robot from practicing it more ...

Hey! i m robot from the good old times at chopinfiles! Hope you are doing well.

There are too many keys wrong but it is about up to tempo (1:50 is the perfect version of it with 1/4=176). I am not only sure that you play the keys wrong, I sometimes have a feeling that you do not remember the score properly (assuming you are playing it by heart as one can hardly play this piece from score). What I like about it is the musical interpretation. Been listening to Perhia's version?

Hey! i m robot from the good old times at chopinfiles! Hope you are doing well.

There are too many keys wrong but it is about up to tempo (1:50 is the perfect version of it with 1/4=176). I am not only sure that you play the keys wrong, I sometimes have a feeling that you do not remember the score properly (assuming you are playing it by heart as one can hardly play this piece from score). What I like about it is the musical interpretation. Been listening to Perhia's version?

My God. I just listened to your playing......I busted and laugh really loud to myself about your playing....(sorry I shouldnt laug Are you a commedian??) ...my tears are coming out of my eyes while i am writing this..

Its either your 1)piano is out of tune or
2) you delibrate to skip a key to a higher key....wrong melody without interupting...but it really funny to make a comic version of op10/1.

3) because of above 1 and 2) it made me laugh????

SLOW PRACTICE AS PETE SAID. Now I did 2.42 its pretty cool and nice and clear. The profeesinal playing around 1.45 to 2.25.

Practiced this piece an hour a day when self was first learning it and usually had three or more hours to practice. Now practice sessions are about 1-2 hours but self doesnt practice every day so the average practice session is around 20 minutes of practice

3) Piano out of tune

F@#$ yeah, it was tuned only days after the recording was made

4) The score

Every note is memorized,

no need for it,

a near perfect peformance can be rendered at a slower tempo

these wrong notes are a combination of lack of maintainance for this speed, the recorder lack of frequency variation, and bad tuning

then there also the experimental factor

wasnt actually planning on posting it

found out how funny it sounded with a hint of clarity and posted it

5) Z speed

Self can play it faster but since self has not mastered the middle section it fall apart completely there

EVERY SINGLE TIME

3 bars determine the quality of the entire performance

then there is the endurance factor

6) the tech

self has almost overcome the habit of excess finger motion, but the problem lies in determining where to draw the line.

Too much fingers equals pain

too little fingers equals loss of clarity at certain points

combined with - there are section where it seems finger motion is needed

and the transfer from no finger to finger results in tension

----

Then there is the question of the body

does it remain almost in place

or does one allow it to flow upward with the hand

then there is the wrist

self has notice that when the hand it angled slightly downward (regardless of whether one uses high or low wrist)

in this position, movements that require the fingers to be raised are easier and produce less tension

while movement that require rotation become harder to produce

-----

Examine mister horowitz.

One would believe his playing would be very painful

but self believe it to be the that his hands are angle downward compared to his forearm which enabled him to play in the form he did

and he doesnt seem to play with only his fingers as people say

he leans in most of the time he plays

----

but self diverges

and this is probably not the right subforum for a discussion on technique

Robot, first it sounds so that have the technique to play the Chopin 10/1 in that tempo. Your tone is ok too, at least what can be heard from the (bad) recording quality. It also not sounded rushed to me.

It only degrades so because of the numberless wrong notes. If it would be an unknown piece and nobody would have the score, but so...
No need to quantify whether there are 50% or 1% wrong notes. They are simply too much.

Take the critiques here positive, work on the wrong notes and post anytime a recording with better sound quality and all notes there and all will be happy. The good message is, technical wise you are able to manage the thing!!!

The good message is, technical wise you are able to manage the thing!!!

That may be so, but don't underestimate the effort and the technical skill involved to get the notes right as well as the general feeling. It is comparatively easy to play a difficult work with great panache but in an approximate way. It seems to me there is something like a 80-20 rule at work here : Getting 80% of the notes right is only 20% of the whole effort. It's in the remaining 20% (well, in reality hopefully 15% or 18%) that 80% of the sweat will go. Not that I've ever got that far, hehe

The good message is, technical wise you are able to manage the thing!!!

That may be so, but don't underestimate the effort and the technical skill involved to get the notes right as well as the general feeling. It is comparatively easy to play a difficult work with great panache but in an approximate way. It seems to me there is something like a 80-20 rule at work here : Getting 80% of the notes right is only 20% of the whole effort. It's in the remaining 20% (well, in reality hopefully 15% or 18%) that 80% of the sweat will go. Not that I've ever got that far, hehe

I disagree regarding the general feeling: I think the general feeling IS there in the recording. Is there really technical skill necessary to hit the right instead wrong notes? Ok, if the wrong notes are easier to access, then maybe. Patience and true honesty, and faithful reading the score are needed, but technical skill?
What I recognized was playing with feeling and expression, and "only" wrong notes.

But I agree so far that if once wrong notes have established, it needs lots work to overcome what is burned in the muscle memory (at least for poor me that's the case, if I get friendly pointed by Chris Breemer to the complete list of wrong notes in my recordings).

The good message is, technical wise you are able to manage the thing!!!

That may be so, but don't underestimate the effort and the technical skill involved to get the notes right as well as the general feeling. It is comparatively easy to play a difficult work with great panache but in an approximate way. It seems to me there is something like a 80-20 rule at work here : Getting 80% of the notes right is only 20% of the whole effort. It's in the remaining 20% (well, in reality hopefully 15% or 18%) that 80% of the sweat will go. Not that I've ever got that far, hehe

I disagree regarding the general feeling: I think the general feeling IS there in the recording. Is there really technical skill necessary to hit the right instead wrong notes? Ok, if the wrong notes are easier to access, then maybe. Patience and true honesty, and faithful reading the score are needed, but technical skill?What I recognized was playing with feeling and expression, and "only" wrong notes.

But I agree so far that if once wrong notes have established, it needs lots work to overcome what is burned in the muscle memory (at least for poor me that's the case, if I get friendly pointed by Chris Breemer to the complete list of wrong notes in my recordings).

OKAY

Are you people saying that wrong notes were played

or that wrong notes were learned

If its the former self already knew when the rec was posted some werent correct (80% sounds like a less exaggerated number)

if its the latter please tell self where the wrong notes come in

Quote:

Quote:

It seems to me there is something like a 80-20 rule at work here : Getting 80% of the notes right is only 20% of the whole effort. It's in the remaining 20% (well, in reality hopefully 15% or 18%) that 80% of the sweat will go. Not that I've ever got that far, hehe

Selfs ear registered around 40 noticeable mistakes

in a piece this short thats a %^&@ load of mistakes

especially seeing how the continuity is broken so often

As far as accuracy goes thats about 96%

which is awesome ISO

considering how little time self spends practicing lately

self actually has time to practice today:D

self will go over the entire piece with the score to see how self memorized it

Hopefully it will not look as though self creates selfs own transcription of the piece

80-20 rule - 80% of the most important work is done in the last 20% of the time

Are you people saying that wrong notes were playedor that wrong notes were learned

Well that is hard to hear, especially in such a difficult etude played at full speed. Myself, I know darn well what all the right notes should be, but I will always miss 10-20% of them (not counted of course, just a feeling) when trying to approach a decent speed. It frustrates the hell out of me.

Quote:

If its the former self already knew when the rec was posted some werent correct (80% sounds like a less exaggerated number)

It's probably more. Of course I said "half" just to tickle you

Quote:

if its the latter please tell self where the wrong notes come in

Ah but that would take a while. Why not get that score down from the attic, if you can still find it, and see for yourself ? Keep listening to yourself, and keep close to the score, it really works.

Quote:

80-20 rule - 80% of the most important work is done in the last 20% of the time

Yes that is how it often goes in practice. Not a good thing though.

Quote:

Learning the notes and mastering the notes is the easy part its the interpretation that is the really challenge

Generally, this is very true. Though in an etude, the balance is more towards the notes than usual. You can sort of get away with a full-speed note-perfect etude even if there is not much in the way of interpretation. That does not work with a Mazurka or Polonaise.

Robot, when i said about your delibrate skip keys to a higher key that is perhaps is so called" wrong notes were played and learned". That make sense now.

You need do 8-12 hours a week, regarless this etude or not but to keep your finger boiling.
this is what i suggest;
1) high finger action, mf playing X2 to lift the knockle joint-3third joint.-delibrate high action-slow playing.

2) followed by 2X close finger action-glue to the key, no lifting, work on 1 finger joint only. mf playing slow.

Reality check: This etude is currently out of your technical range. Your maximum tempo is probably around 1/4 note = 60. You need months or years more training to play it as fast as you want to. (I can't run a four-minute-mile, no matter how much I want to and there's not a damned thing I can do about it.) Be honest to yourself.

If self heard 40 mistakes, self needs to clean self's ears.

But seriously, I stopped counting at 300 note errors. You must understand that when others offer criticism, it is done in a spirit of goodwill. Perhaps the area you should work on first is accepting your shortcomings and seeking solutions to fix them honestly, instead of being defensive. This is never an easy or comfortable proposition. The Chopin Etudes are the Mount Everest of pianism; they demand everything of you. If you're up to the challenge, that is.

Concentrate on Chopin's Preludes first. The etudes can come later.

ps, Did you read my critiques of johnmar78's 10/1 in the audition room?

There's also this: While the average percentage of wrong notes is perhaps not so very high (and not actully very important), there are certainly some bars in the middle where about half of the notes are wrong. That spoils the performance and sets the perception for the rest of the piece. This is the spot where fatigue sets in and endurance is severely tested. I have exactly the same problems there, and I guess most people do until they are trained to the max.

Learning the notes and mastering the notes is the easy part its the interpretation that is the really challenge

Generally, this is very true. Though in an etude, the balance is more towards the notes than usual. You can sort of get away with a full-speed note-perfect etude even if there is not much in the way of interpretation. That does not work with a Mazurka or Polonaise.

The Chopin Etudes are no real Etudes in the sense as finger gymnastics to me. They are musical masterpieces, and can well be used as concert pieces. They also don't need to be played very fast in the first rank.
Chopin itself played some etudes in his rare concerts, I know that was the case for 25/1 and 25/2. I cannot imagine that he liked to present finger gymnastics, that was against his musical perception.

And Chopin asked that someone plays his 10/3 etude on his death bed!!!

No, especially for the Chopin Etudes the interpretation is the challenge. Full speed note-perfect etudes tend to sound boring, if they are bloodless.

Reality check: This etude is currently out of your technical range. Your maximum tempo is probably around 1/4 note = 60. You need months or years more training to play it as fast as you want to. (I can't run a four-minute-mile, no matter how much I want to and there's not a damned thing I can do about it.) Be honest to yourself.

If self heard 40 mistakes, self needs to clean self's ears.

But seriously, I stopped counting at 300 note errors. You must understand that when others offer criticism, it is done in a spirit of goodwill. Perhaps the area you should work on first is accepting your shortcomings and seeking solutions to fix them honestly, instead of being defensive. This is never an easy or comfortable proposition. The Chopin Etudes are the Mount Everest of pianism; they demand everything of you. If you're up to the challenge, that is.

Concentrate on Chopin's Preludes first. The etudes can come later.

ps, Did you read my critiques of johnmar78's 10/1 in the audition room?

PF

Called a jerk much?

This aint outta selfs range -that's an absurd statement by all means

this rec was done for the fun of it after not practicing for a long az time, and most of the pianos at school is are off by a two steps in the high note, one step in the lower

of course there are more than 40 - like there'd be an exact number to the amount of mistakes in a performance

the fact that it was posted on the SDC as taking lesson from Comme - and individual how is notorious for posting crappy recording - is evidence of how awful self knew it was

the defensive crap was an act - but now self is truly insulted

jeez you're a kill joy

And about running a four minute mile

you cant run one

but self can

REALIZM IS FOR THE WEAK!!!!

AHHAHAAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHHAAHH

EDIT:

After rereading self posts self is unable to see where you believe self was being defensive

therefore the above statements will receive a -1 off the total seriousness level

but its still pretty darn high

Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

There's also this: While the average percentage of wrong notes is perhaps not so very high (and not actully very important), there are certainly some bars in the middle where about half of the notes are wrong. That spoils the performance and sets the perception for the rest of the piece. This is the spot where fatigue sets in and endurance is severely tested. I have exactly the same problems there, and I guess most people do until they are trained to the max.

Self asked for info to correct this problem on the first page of this topic

however

self has just got done actually practicing this piece instead of just seeing how fast it can be played

its seems that - in the case of the ascending c eb a eb arp - either rotating aroung the fourth finger or around an imaginary extended 2nd finger the arp becomes easier to perform

self spent a few minutes holding down A with 4 then rotating, cycling, and doing both with 2 and 4 on the ebs

this made the execution much easier and gave it that feeling that it only needed to be repeated to control rather than feeling little to no control at all.

for the descending eb bb eb c and eb ab eb cb arps it seems holding the hand so that the pinking is almost totally in line with the wrist and stretching the thumb helps with these arps

Self is still figuring the a e a c# arp

self has questions as to whether or not these would apply for someone with smaller hands

Please refrain from becoming personal to the point of being insulting. Maybe this was ok on the Chopin forum but it isn't here. If you can not handle critique in a normal way you had better not be posting in the Audition Room - or anywhere else for that matter.

I have moved this topic into the Technique section, where it belongs. Audition Room is intended to submit recordings for possible inclusion on the site, not for recordings that you know are only halfway there yet.

Please refrain from becoming personal to the point of being insulting. Maybe this was ok on the Chopin forum but it isn't here. If you can not handle critique in a normal way you had better not be posting in the Audition Room - or anywhere else for that matter.

I have moved this topic into the Technique section, where it belongs. Audition Room is intended to submit recordings for possible inclusion on the site, not for recordings that you know are only halfway there yet.

Self will completely stop because it seems insanity does not register

self apologizes

self found out the thing about the audition room after already posting

the post was a joke

stop seriously criticizing it

please

Quote:

Reality check: This etude is currently out of your technical range....

Everything is within one's range

to self this is an insult of the greatest degree

Quote:

...I can't run a four-minute-mile, no matter how much I want to and there's not a damned thing I can do about it.) Be honest to yourself.

never put yourself down, in an attempt to make a realistic comparison with self

how does one run a four minute mile?

its starts with belief

then practice

but without belief practice is irrelevant

self whole heartedly believes that if you say you can to do something

you can

but if you say you cant -youll always be right

Now lets really be honest

why is it that so many people are unable to run a mile in 4 minutes?

Virtually everyone's body is capable of this feat

save for atheletes like Lance armstrong, people's bodies act almost completely the same

the reason

at some people they saw this slender ectomorphic guy pushing down track in an insane fashion

and instead of thinking -wow thats great and i can be like that too

they think somewhere along the lines of -wow thats great and ill probaby never be able to do something like that

they only see the finished product

they dont see the runner training day and night for years to get to that level

and they discount themselves before they try

and if they do try, they try with doubt in the back of their minds

because no matter how damned hard i try "I can never be like that"

there is no such thing as try- there is only do and not do

If you havent gotten to where you want to be you havent invested enough of the right time

the right time meaning: time spent learning how to shave off even milliseconds

much like sitting down and doing hannon mindlessly wont help your technique

simply going for a jog with no real purpose wont help you run a 4 minute mile

Self know good and well what it takes to play this piece

self is in no way delusional or asking to be told self cant do something

self knows that rec was full of mistakes

What you dont know:

self spends two-three days max at the piano a week

Since quitting self's second job this time will increase

Before there was only time for maintainence and a little fun

progression with all the pieces self is learning was not really an option

fun is what the recording was

not an attempt to show the world how flawlessly and effortlessly self playing was

All of selfs post, even the seemly angry one

was done with a smile on selfs face (though a little less so with the above one)

Yes, agree. There is no need to draw attention to self, er, yourself, by using funny language, omitting dots and commas, and inserting blank lines. It will only make people stop reading your posts. Also, jokes should be recognizable as such, otherwise they are not jokes.

self, you must to learn the patience like me to handle all the critique. Think it open like a two way tunnel.
This is the whole idea of improving your playing. My face is thick can handle all sorts of critiqu and it deosnot bothering me.

I suggest that robot refrains from posting joke recordings. I do not have the time nor desire to entertain this sillyness. What audacity! I'm not a killjoy; if you had simply said it was a joke, I would've listened to it, laughed hysterically and moved on without wasting my time on a critique. Please do not directly address me again.

I suggest that robot refrains from posting joke recordings. I do not have the time nor desire to entertain this sillyness. What audacity! I'm not a killjoy; if you had simply said it was a joke, I would've listened to it, laughed hysterically and moved on without wasting my time on a critique. Please do not directly address me again.

PJF

Im sorry. It was wrong of me to tell you not to tell me something it out of my reach. You seem to have some good theories. Many of which I was already applying -before even having read them. Unfortunately your post appears to be more of a put down than a critique. Facts mixed with rude remarks is what it is.

If you read all the posts you would have learned that the recording was a joke. And if you omitted the smart alec remarks, your post would not have met any negativity. Coming at all people in the same manner will eventually lead to conflict. We are all different and come from different places. For instance, using phrases like "really check" where I come from, would get one punched in the face.

Now, you two stop bickering. Or take it further in a PM exchange if it must be fought out until the bitter end. I have locked this topic.

We will indeed appreciate robot's postings more if they make some sense and are written in normal style and language. I guess this forum is a bit too serious (or boring, if you wish) for practical jokes and 'insanity'-type postings.

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