[Discussion] Mass Shootings - Yeah, we need a thread just for this...

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This year is the deadliest year ever in terms of mass shootings. In a political climate of polarization, it becomes harder to suss out legitimate information from the misinformation propagated by those with political agendas. Complicating this more is the continual resistance of 2nd amendment advocates to allow for political talk surrounding these massacres. This will involve political discussion to see if there are ways we can all agree might be good ways to prevent mass shootings.

This discussion should involve the details of any current, or future has shooting, and how they compare to past mass shootings. How are they the same? How are they different? Do gun laws have an impact? Does the race of the shooter affect how we treat them? What makes one a hate crime and one an act or terrorism? Are these shootings the price of freedom?

I considered making a thread for the Texas shooting, but decided that it would be gross to have multiple threads popping up on the same topic, since mass shootings seem to be here to stay. So feel free o bring up past events as well as current events.

Henry Standing Bear: It is a beautiful day at the Red Pony and continual soiree.

Castiel: I suggest we imbibe copious amounts of alcohol and just wait for the inevitable blast wave.

A gunman killed four people and wounded a number of others at random Tuesday at multiple locations in rural Northern California, including an elementary school, before police shot him dead, authorities said.

Rebecca

"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley

When real headlines cannot be differentiated from The Onion....Maybe we're headed down the wrong path.

Praise the Sun \[T]/
Rainsmercy: Cuz I don't want to be hit with a stick by Certis.
Vector:Bolivia is the saltiest I've had
Thrawn82: Is it sad I had to do a double-take before I decided this was a joke?

So the California shooter was another guy with anger issues, a history of assaulting women, a charge of illegally firing a weapon, a charge of owning an illegal assault rifle, and an outstanding protective order that barred him from having any firearms and yet he still had multiple firearms.

Yonder wrote:

At this point striking the Pope once with a sword is a completely reasonable action.

Typical California... Why didn't any of the brave citizens where the shooting took place have a gun and take down the shooter? Oh yeah, because they are liberal DemocRAT! people, I bet they voted for Killary, too. See what good the laws did? He was already being denied his 2nd Amendment rights, and still was able to get a gun and shoot some people. Your liberal laws are sad and pointless.

Spoiler:

Actually, wasn't the shooting at a school? I guess arming Elementary School kids might not be the best idea. Oh, and people break laws all the time, it doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws. I really hope you didn't have to hit the spoiler to see that I was not being serious.

Started with some personal killings, then random, then he approached a school and the administration went to lock down before he could get in. Couple kids were hurt as he shot up the outside.

Praise the Sun \[T]/
Rainsmercy: Cuz I don't want to be hit with a stick by Certis.
Vector:Bolivia is the saltiest I've had
Thrawn82: Is it sad I had to do a double-take before I decided this was a joke?

So, we basically came a hairs breadth away from another mass kindergartner casualty situation, and seems like society has already moved on. This country is starting to really depress me.

Between 7:50 and 7:53 a.m. Tuesday, the school secretary and other staff members heard a gunshot nearby. Then they heard two more.
"The first shot was loud, it was close," Fitzpatrick said. "But the second two came in close succession. 'Pop. Pop.' "
That's all the secretary needed to announce a lockdown. The staff quickly went into the yard and began corralling students into their classrooms and ushering parents into the office.
About two-thirds of the lockdown was complete when the shooter rammed a gate at the north end of the campus with a white pickup truck, breaking through the school fence.
The school's head custodian poked his head around the building and made eye contact with the shooter, who fired at him, Fitzpatrick said.
"The shooter was struggling with his weapon at this time," Fitzpatrick said. The gun appeared to be jammed, and he was having trouble loading ammunition, Fitzpatrick said.
The superintendent believes that interaction gave staff a few more seconds to get children into classrooms, completing the lockdown.Surveillance video shows that eight to 10 seconds after every room was secured, the shooter entered the quad, Fitzpatrick said.
"The school secretary recognizing the threat - that quickly made all the difference between 100 kids being around today and dozens being shot or killed," he said. "That amount of seconds was critical."

If the shooter hadn't fired shots before approaching the school...
If the secretary and staff hadn't heard it and acted so quickly...
If the shooter were just a little bit faster...
If his gun hadn't jammed...

After Bevin's Guns and God references throughout his campaign and his perfectly willing to disregard life as he tries to strip people of healthcare coverage in the state... him tearing/choking up talking about it nearly send me into a blind rage. I had to step away from the TV when I saw it.

"What forest are you talking about?! I can't see anything with all these trees in the way!" ~Farscry

An Arizona man who sold ammunition to the gunman who carried out the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history was charged Friday with manufacturing armor-piercing bullets, according to court documents.

Unfired armor-piercing bullets found inside the Las Vegas hotel room where Stephen Paddock launched the Oct. 1 attack had the fingerprints of ammunition dealer Douglas Haig, according to a criminal complaint filed in federal court in Phoenix. It says Haig didn't have a license to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition.

Haig has acknowledged selling 720 rounds of tracer ammunition to Paddock in the weeks before the shooting that killed 58 people. Tracer bullets contain a pyrotechnic charge that illuminates the path of fired bullets so shooters can see whether their aim is correct.

The documents don't say if any ammunition tied to Paddock was used in the attack. Las Vegas police wouldn't say whether armor-piercing bullets were used in the shooting but referred to a preliminary report saying some rifle magazines were loaded with armor-piercing ammunition.

Haig, a 55-year-old aerospace engineer who sold ammunition as a hobby for about 25 years, was charged 35 minutes before holding a news conference where he said he didn't notice anything suspicious when he sold the tracer rounds to Paddock.

Haig told investigators that when Paddock bought the ammunition at his home in suburban Phoenix, Paddock went to his car to get gloves and put them on before taking the box from Haig, the complaint said.

"I had no contribution to what Paddock did," Haig told reporters earlier Friday, adding that there was nothing unusual about the type or quantity of ammunition the shooter bought. "I had no way to see into his mind."

The two armor-piercing bullets found in Paddock's hotel room with Haig's fingerprints had an "incendiary capsule" on their noses, the documents said. A forensic analysis of those two bullets had tool marks consistent with the equipment in Haig's backyard workshop, according to the complaint.

It also alleges that FBI agents searching Haig's home on Oct. 19 found armor-piercing ammunition.

The complaint said Haig sold such bullets in more than 100 instances to customers across the United States, including Nevada, Texas, Virginia, Wyoming and South Carolina.

Paddock bought nearly 800 rounds of incendiary ammunition from Haig (and who knows how many armor-piercing rounds) and Haig didn't find that suspicious? How many rounds of ammunition do people have to buy before the purchase becomes suspicious?

Also nice to know Haig was illegally manufacturing armor-piercing ammunition and selling it throughout the country. I highly doubt he and his partner are the only responsible gun enthusiasts breaking the law like that.

Yonder wrote:

At this point striking the Pope once with a sword is a completely reasonable action.

Not to be terribly contrarian, but I would be curious about the technical details regarding what is characterized as "incendiary" and "armor piercing". Tracer rounds are technically "incendiary", but their primary purpose is to light the path of fire so it is easier to correct for automatic fire. The military generally splices a tracer round into every 5 or so regular rounds of a belt or magazine so that automatic fire is visible to the operator. It's job is not to set things on fire and it is pretty ineffective at doing that.

"Armor piercing" is also a tough one to pin down as well for different reasons. Primary among them is that body armor is generally rated against calibers or kinetic energy. Class 2a body armor is, for instance, most commonly worn by law enforcement because it is flexible and easily worn under uniforms. It is rated for most handgun ammunition, but is generally worthless against a long arm of almost any reasonable caliber. A 5.56 (the caliber used by Paddock), for instance, would likely not be hindered much by Class 2a at anything under 200 meters. Additionally, the 5.56 round (due to it being such a small projectile) loses energy very quickly over distance, so beyond 300 would likely not penetrate the same body armor.

Add to this that the most commonly produced projectile for 5.56 manufactured today is NATO standard SS109 (otherwise known as "green tip"). It weighs 62 grains and consists of three components: 1) lead ballast, 2) copper plating, and 3) a steel conical "penetrator" on the tip. It is not specifically "armor piercing", but it is functionally precisely that.

Now I understand that it is possible to make fancy bullets with teflon coatings to slip through fiber body armor easier, but the practical applications of those would be really limited. They wouldn't work against rigid plates like the ones used by the military or SWAT teams and would be unnecessary against soft body armor for anything under about 200 meters.

Is this a case of the ammunition being simply NATO standard ammunition and someone sensationalizing it or is this something else I have not considered?

The actual complaint filed is about manufacturing and selling armor piercing ammo (classified as such by the FBI) without a license to do so, also lying about selling it to Paddock when initially asked. He had a website advertising "High Explosive Armor Piercing Incendiary , Armor Piercing Incendiary, and Armor Piercing ammunition in .30 caliber / 7.62NATO" as well as records for over a hundred of sales of it.

The actual complaint filed is about manufacturing and selling armor piercing ammo (classified as such by the FBI) without a license to do so, also lying about selling it to Paddock when initially asked. He had a website advertising "High Explosive Armor Piercing Incendiary , Armor Piercing Incendiary, and Armor Piercing ammunition in .30 caliber / 7.62NATO" as well as records for over a hundred of sales of it.

Nice to see that the associate of Haig mentioned in other articles was also a responsible gun enthusiast who had 5,000 rounds of ammunition he bought from Haig--some of it API and HEAPI--stolen from his car.

Also nice to see that Haig sold those 5,000 rounds to the associate for $20 because he didn't want to risk being arrested with the ammunition in his possession as he left a gun show/machine gun shoot.

Yonder wrote:

At this point striking the Pope once with a sword is a completely reasonable action.

Okay. So it looks like Green Tip is not classified as armor piercing. I wonder if he was manufacturing sh*t like tungsten projectiles. Expensive as sh*t and very limited in application. Either way, seriously questionable judgement all the way around.

Not to be terribly contrarian, but I would be curious about the technical details regarding what is characterized as "incendiary" and "armor piercing". Tracer rounds are technically "incendiary", but their primary purpose is to light the path of fire so it is easier to correct for automatic fire. The military generally splices a tracer round into every 5 or so regular rounds of a belt or magazine so that automatic fire is visible to the operator. It's job is not to set things on fire and it is pretty ineffective at doing that.

"Armor piercing" is also a tough one to pin down as well for different reasons. Primary among them is that body armor is generally rated against calibers or kinetic energy. Class 2a body armor is, for instance, most commonly worn by law enforcement because it is flexible and easily worn under uniforms. It is rated for most handgun ammunition, but is generally worthless against a long arm of almost any reasonable caliber. A 5.56 (the caliber used by Paddock), for instance, would likely not be hindered much by Class 2a at anything under 200 meters. Additionally, the 5.56 round (due to it being such a small projectile) loses energy very quickly over distance, so beyond 300 would likely not penetrate the same body armor.

Add to this that the most commonly produced projectile for 5.56 manufactured today is NATO standard SS109 (otherwise known as "green tip"). It weighs 62 grains and consists of three components: 1) lead ballast, 2) copper plating, and 3) a steel conical "penetrator" on the tip. It is not specifically "armor piercing", but it is functionally precisely that.

Now I understand that it is possible to make fancy bullets with teflon coatings to slip through fiber body armor easier, but the practical applications of those would be really limited. They wouldn't work against rigid plates like the ones used by the military or SWAT teams and would be unnecessary against soft body armor for anything under about 200 meters.

Is this a case of the ammunition being simply NATO standard ammunition and someone sensationalizing it or is this something else I have not considered?

“(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”

Pursuant to the GCA, ammunition that meets this definition may be eligible for an exemption from the statutory restrictions placed on armor piercing ammunition if ATF finds the ammunition is “primarily intended” for sporting purposes. As part of its review process of the pending exemption requests, ATF sought input from industry and law enforcement organizations on the application of the “sporting purpose” exemption set forth in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C).

Note: Armor piercing is only restricted on handguns and unrestricted on rifles.