I loved the ending. I like that for once a superhero was put in a situation where he was forced to make a difficult moral and ethical choice. Having Superman constantly come up with contrived dues ex machine ways to avoid making difficult decisions is annoying and makes the character less interesting. Superman did what had to be done. Very few men deserved to die more than Zod did. Despite this, it still devastated him. It makes him more real while staying true to the character

Hmmmmm....what if the difficult choice was.... not killing Zod...even at the potential cost of other lives!

Just to throw out there......as some have proposed Zod was comitting suicide by cop...perhaps even taking some satisfaction in the knowledg that he was forcing Superman to kill....controlling him......but when Superman refuses to kill him....Zod realizes an ultimate failure and actually commits unassisted suicide.

I would have found that ending to be very interesting as well. Maybe they can use that idea with another villain in the sequel, perhaps Metallo or Parasite. I simply loved the ending we got, but I believe that other endings could have been good as well.

I disagree that the Zod/Doomsday scenarios aren't comparable. While the circumstances were different, in both cases, Superman was put in a situation were the only way to stop a rampaging villain was to kill him. He had tried to stop Zod using non-lethal means. It didn't work and he was forced to make a split second decision in order to save innocent people. Zod was getting stronger by the second and could not be contained. He had also gone completely insane. I think that he made the right decision given the circumstances.

I disagree that the Zod/Doomsday scenarios aren't comparable. While the circumstances were different, in both cases, Superman was put in a situation were the only way to stop a rampaging villain was to kill him. He had tried to stop Zod using non-lethal means. It didn't work and he was forced to make a split second decision in order to save innocent people. Zod was getting stronger by the second and could not be contained. He had also gone completely insane. I think that he made the right decision given the circumstances.

I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that Superman (who is no fool) would realize that if he hit something living hard enough, it would die. So yes, I believe that he probably realized that he could kill Doomsday. That doesn't mean that he wanted to, but he was willing to do it as a last resort.

After re watching TDK trilogy recently, it does make me really sad that a lot of what I would have wanted to see in MOS in terms of prinicapls and the deeper meaning of the hero, is so abundantly present there.

I love this quote, and something like this would be great to hear in relation to Superman's no kill rule -

Quote:

ALFRED: Perhaps both Bruce and Mr. Dent believe that Batman stands for something more important than the whims of a terrorist, Miss Dawes even if everyone hates him for it. That's a sacrifice he's making. He's NOT being a hero. He's being something more.

__________________

Just accept that this is the direction they have taken.

Then, you can either decide this version isn't for you and stop watching. OR you can decide to enjoy it for what it is - an elseworlds tale.

'In Elseworlds, super-heroes are taken from their usual settings and put into strange times and places - some that have existed, and others that can't, couldn't or shouldn't exist. The result is stories that make characters who are as familiar as yesterday seem as fresh as tomorrow.'

[QUOTE=afan;26303005
Just to throw out there......as some have proposed Zod was comitting suicide by cop...perhaps even taking some satisfaction in the knowledg that he was forcing Superman to kill....controlling him......but when Superman refuses to kill him....Zod realizes an ultimate failure and actually commits unassisted suicide.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think Zod was just going to suicide, that would have been terrible, and how would he even know how to do that, just fly out into space until he eventually died?

So Superman just lets him go and Zod kills more and more people until he eventually suicides (which again seems almost impossible in a rage manner given the power level he was at)

ending IMO was perfect, and sets up the character as a great origin story should. Hate how origin stories flesh out the character totally and then the sequels just fall to pieces because there's no where to go.

Hmmmmm....what if the difficult choice was.... not killing Zod...even at the potential cost of other lives!

So he should have let Zod go, sacrificing innocent lives in the process, based on the HOPE that Zod would see the error and futility of his actions and just stop on his own? Even if that worked (no evidence to suggest it would) Superman would still have to be willing to sacrifice the lives of innocents ON PURPOSE, by letting Zod kill them. That seems very counterintuitive and unheroic to me.

No. Superman needed to kill Zod. Not only is it a more interesting character beat (seeing Superman have to make the choice), but it's also a really defining moment for him when he still grieves over Zod's death anyway (keep in mind Zod gave Supes every reason to want him dead, but even then he was willing to give Zod a chance to stop on his own. Superman even begged him). He did what needed to be done in order to save lives, but that didn't make it easy for him.

No. Superman needed to kill Zod. Not only is it a more interesting character beat (seeing Superman have to make the choice), but it's also a really defining moment for him when he still grieves over Zod's death anyway (keep in mind Zod gave Supes every reason to want him dead, but even then he was willing to give Zod a chance to stop on his own. Superman even begged him). He did what needed to be done in order to save lives, but that didn't make it easy for him.

That's an interesting thought that I hadn't resolved yet, the scream at the end, what drove that?

1) because he killed?
2) because he severed the last link to the questions he has been asking all his life?
3) because of realising the total compound human lives that may be lost?
4) a sense of feeling back to where he was with Jon Kent's death?

That's an interesting thought that I hadn't resolved yet, the scream at the end, what drove that?

1) because he killed?
2) because he severed the last link to the questions he has been asking all his life?
3) because of realising the total compound human lives that may be lost?
4) a sense of feeling back to where he was with Jon Kent's death?

What would people here say If Superman didnt kill Zod, Zod killed the family
And then Superman found a way to send Zod back to the Phantom Zone ?
To me that scenario would have been unacceptable .
Just saying, it could have been worse .
And many people here would have called Superman a killer for not saving the family .

I'm surprised that this is still debated; guys, MOS had no kryptonite, no red radiation, the phantom zone was gone (and even if it wasn't, do you really think Superman could've went there even when Zod was fighting him, savagely I might add, and wasn't going to stop?), and even though it is a DC Film Universe in the making, magic doesn't exist. There was no other way to stop Zod at the end, and people here and elsewhere who are bashing it, must be accepting it but choose to bash it because they're ignorant and refuse to admit that they're wrong. There isn't any other explanation.

But here's something: alot of people keep on saying that Superman should've have done something different, well put your money where your mouth is: what should Superman have done instead? Remember; no kryptonite, no red radiation, no phantom zone, and no magic, because they are not in this movie or are gone. If you cannot come up with something that would've worked and made sense, it proves my point. Okay? Go!

I'm surprised that this is still debated; guys, MOS had no kryptonite, no red radiation, the phantom zone was gone (and even if it wasn't, do you really think Superman could've went there even when Zod was fighting him, savagely I might add, and wasn't going to stop?), and even though it is a DC Film Universe in the making, magic doesn't exist. There was no other way to stop Zod at the end, and people here and elsewhere who are bashing it, must be accepting it but choose to bash it because they're ignorant and refuse to admit that they're wrong. There isn't any other explanation.

But here's something: alot of people keep on saying that Superman should've have done something different, well put your money where your mouth is: what should Superman have done instead? Remember; no kryptonite, no red radiation, no phantom zone, and no magic, because they are not in this movie or are gone. If you cannot come up with something that would've worked and made sense, it proves my point. Okay? Go!

But here's something: alot of people keep on saying that Superman should've have done something different, well put your money where your mouth is: what should Superman have done instead? Remember; no kryptonite, no red radiation, no phantom zone, and no magic, because they are not in this movie or are gone. If you cannot come up with something that would've worked and made sense, it proves my point. Okay? Go!

Just do what they did in S2, Zod can sit in the White House bored and then Clark can have Australia (Lex can have something else this time)

I'm surprised that this is still debated; guys, MOS had no kryptonite, no red radiation, the phantom zone was gone (and even if it wasn't, do you really think Superman could've went there even when Zod was fighting him, savagely I might add, and wasn't going to stop?), and even though it is a DC Film Universe in the making, magic doesn't exist. There was no other way to stop Zod at the end, and people here and elsewhere who are bashing it, must be accepting it but choose to bash it because they're ignorant and refuse to admit that they're wrong. There isn't any other explanation.

But here's something: alot of people keep on saying that Superman should've have done something different, well put your money where your mouth is: what should Superman have done instead? Remember; no kryptonite, no red radiation, no phantom zone, and no magic, because they are not in this movie or are gone. If you cannot come up with something that would've worked and made sense, it proves my point. Okay? Go!

Looks like everyone has gone quiet or just making jokes. Well done sir.

Here's what I don't get: REEVE KILLED HIM TOO! And Stamp-Zod was no longer even a threat! AND Supes was a lot more cavalier about it whereas Cavill-Supes was morally conflicted. So why is it so horrible that he did what he had to do?

__________________Michael Joseph Jackson 1958-2009. Gone Too Soon.
May he finally find the peace that eluded him in life.There is only ONE Spider-Man. His name is Peter Parker. He's an adult, and he's straight!

Here's what I don't get: REEVE KILLED HIM TOO! And Stamp-Zod was no longer even a threat! AND Supes was a lot more cavalier about it whereas Cavill-Supes was morally conflicted. So why is it so horrible that he did what he had to do?

From the perspective of Reeves performance at the time ,
He didnt kill Zod.
The scene where The Kryptonians were arrested later was edited out in post production .

But here's something: alot of people keep on saying that Superman should've have done something different, well put your money where your mouth is: what should Superman have done instead? Remember; no kryptonite, no red radiation, no phantom zone, and no magic, because they are not in this movie or are gone. If you cannot come up with something that would've worked and made sense, it proves my point. Okay? Go!

I keep posting this, and everyone seems quite content to ignore it and pretend like there is no other logical way of concluding the movie

Here it is again though, just for you!

Basically, this is how it could have gone:

1. Make it clearer that the plan is to send the Kryptonians back to the prizon they had been sentanced to on Krypton. Actually SAY that.

2. Only have one world engine, which is over Metropolis.

3. Still have the military and Lois go after the world engine with the PZ plan and baby's ship on board, but have Supes job be to go after Zod when the military confirm that he is not on the ship.

4. Have him confront Zod in the scout ship, have the same exchange about Krypton having it's chance and Supes destroying the ship with his heat vision, but have him destroy it from the outside and ,with great effort guide it into the river we see it pass over in the movie... rather than just allowing it to smash through buildings in Metropolis.

5. Then both Supes and Zod rise up from the ruins of the ship, Zod gives his pissed off speech about what he just cost him (the genesis chamber still signifies a great loss for him), and then we see them duke it out, but with Supes constantly having the PZ in mind when choosing which direction to fly in/punch him towards, but finding it incredibly difficult to force the direction of the fight.

6. At this point we've still got the other kryptonians in Black Zero, Faora attacking the plane, as well as Jenny trapped about to die with Perry holding her hand.

All of that culminates in this scene, which is somethinf I thought would be great since first discussion the movie, similar to the one we got with a very different ending.

Supes and Zod end up in a street full of people watching in horror. Zod keeps trying to go after people, and Supes just about manages to stop him each time. Finally, he has him beat, in the head lock, ready for that killing blow, when zod says 'you'll have to kill me to stop me!'

And then there is this moment, where you can see how much he wants to. And he's looking at the Black Zero, with the army plane not far from reaching it now, knowing the odds of him actually getting Zod there are pretty slim.

But he looks up at the people watching, just everyday citizens, families, a little girl holding a teddy bear covered in ash... (maybe even a young ginger kid taking pictues) and he realises what killing Zod, especially in front of all these people, would mean... that if they saw that, they'd never trust him again and he'd be sending out a message he just doesn't want to send - and so the anger starts to fall from his face, replaced by determination. He knows what he has to do.

At which point he says 'No, Zod. You're a criminal, and you belong back in the prizon you came from.'

So he puts everything he has into flying towards Black Zero, arm still around Zod's neck. And you can see them both struggling, and Zod trying to pull away as he's realised the implications of what that means, but Superman is putting as much effort into this flight (as he did the destruction of the World Enginge in the actual film... enough to make him scream with just the same effort). And it's only at just the last minute that Zod manages to break free of his grip, but it's too late. They are close enough to the plane crashing into the ship for Superman to super punch him into the Phantom Zone as it begins to emerge, with one last lingering shot of him struggling to not be sucked in.

It starts to pull on Superman then too, but that's when he sees Lois falling to her death, and it gives him that extra incentive to drag himself out of the pull of the Zone in order to catch her.

Que the 'He saved all of us' line, the kiss, and subsequant scenes.

Would that have really been so difficult to make work?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

Here's what I don't get: REEVE KILLED HIM TOO! And Stamp-Zod was no longer even a threat! AND Supes was a lot more cavalier about it whereas Cavill-Supes was morally conflicted. So why is it so horrible that he did what he had to do?

Because it sucks BOTH times.

Why do people keep assuming that no one hated it in Superman 2 (or the vaious other comic storylines in which similar things have occured), and therefore anyone who doesn't like it in MOS must be a hypocrite.

I can only speak from myself, but I hate ALL of those instances. And there are much fewer of those instances than examples of Superman choosing NOT to kill.

__________________

Just accept that this is the direction they have taken.

Then, you can either decide this version isn't for you and stop watching. OR you can decide to enjoy it for what it is - an elseworlds tale.

'In Elseworlds, super-heroes are taken from their usual settings and put into strange times and places - some that have existed, and others that can't, couldn't or shouldn't exist. The result is stories that make characters who are as familiar as yesterday seem as fresh as tomorrow.'

Here's what I don't get: REEVE KILLED HIM TOO! And Stamp-Zod was no longer even a threat! AND Supes was a lot more cavalier about it whereas Cavill-Supes was morally conflicted. So why is it so horrible that he did what he had to do?

From the perspective of Reeves performance at the time ,
He didnt kill Zod.
The scene where The Kryptonians were arrested later was edited out in post production .

[QUOTE=hopefuldreamer;26383037]I keep posting this, and everyone seems quite content to ignore it and pretend like there is no other logical way of concluding the movie

Here it is again though, just for you!

Basically, this is how it could have gone:

1. Make it clearer that the plan is to send the Kryptonians back to the prizon they had been sentanced to on Krypton. Actually SAY that.

2. Only have one world engine, which is over Metropolis.

3. Still have the military and Lois go after the world engine with the PZ plan and baby's ship on board, but have Supes job be to go after Zod when the military confirm that he is not on the ship.

4. Have him confront Zod in the scout ship, have the same exchange about Krypton having it's chance and Supes destroying the ship with his heat vision, but have him destroy it from the outside and ,with great effort guide it into the river we see it pass over in the movie... rather than just allowing it to smash through buildings in Metropolis.

5. Then both Supes and Zod rise up from the ruins of the ship, Zod gives his pissed off speech about what he just cost him (the genesis chamber still signifies a great loss for him), and then we see them duke it out, but with Supes constantly having the PZ in mind when choosing which direction to fly in/punch him towards, but finding it incredibly difficult to force the direction of the fight.

6. At this point we've still got the other kryptonians in Black Zero, Faora attacking the plane, as well as Jenny trapped about to die with Perry holding her hand.

All of that culminates in this scene, which is somethinf I thought would be great since first discussion the movie, similar to the one we got with a very different ending.

Supes and Zod end up in a street full of people watching in horror. Zod keeps trying to go after people, and Supes just about manages to stop him each time. Finally, he has him beat, in the head lock, ready for that killing blow, when zod says 'you'll have to kill me to stop me!'

And then there is this moment, where you can see how much he wants to. And he's looking at the Black Zero, with the army plane not far from reaching it now, knowing the odds of him actually getting Zod there are pretty slim.

But he looks up at the people watching, just everyday citizens, families, a little girl holding a teddy bear covered in ash... (maybe even a young ginger kid taking pictues) and he realises what killing Zod, especially in front of all these people, would mean... that if they saw that, they'd never trust him again and he'd be sending out a message he just doesn't want to send - and so the anger starts to fall from his face, replaced by determination. He knows what he has to do.

At which point he says 'No, Zod. You're a criminal, and you belong back in the prizon you came from.'

So he puts everything he has into flying towards Black Zero, arm still around Zod's neck. And you can see them both struggling, and Zod trying to pull away as he's realised the implications of what that means, but Superman is putting as much effort into this flight (as he did the destruction of the World Enginge in the actual film... enough to make him scream with just the same effort). And it's only at just the last minute that Zod manages to break free of his grip, but it's too late. They are close enough to the plane crashing into the ship for Superman to super punch him into the Phantom Zone as it begins to emerge, with one last lingering shot of him struggling to not be sucked in.

It starts to pull on Superman then too, but that's when he sees Lois falling to her death, and it gives him that extra incentive to drag himself out of the pull of the Zone in order to catch her.

Que the 'He saved all of us' line, the kiss, and subsequant scenes.

Would that have really been so difficult to make work?

Because what you're doing is having Superman avoid a difficult moral choice. This time he just didn't have a choice; let people die or kill.

Just tell me, go from the bit where Superman has Zod and Zod's heat vision is moving steadily to innocent people. Tell us, put your Superman in that position, what would YOUR superman do?

I keep posting this, and everyone seems quite content to ignore it and pretend like there is no other logical way of concluding the movie

Here it is again though, just for you!

Basically, this is how it could have gone:

1. Make it clearer that the plan is to send the Kryptonians back to the prizon they had been sentanced to on Krypton. Actually SAY that.

2. Only have one world engine, which is over Metropolis.

3. Still have the military and Lois go after the world engine with the PZ plan and baby's ship on board, but have Supes job be to go after Zod when the military confirm that he is not on the ship.

4. Have him confront Zod in the scout ship, have the same exchange about Krypton having it's chance and Supes destroying the ship with his heat vision, but have him destroy it from the outside and ,with great effort guide it into the river we see it pass over in the movie... rather than just allowing it to smash through buildings in Metropolis.

5. Then both Supes and Zod rise up from the ruins of the ship, Zod gives his pissed off speech about what he just cost him (the genesis chamber still signifies a great loss for him), and then we see them duke it out, but with Supes constantly having the PZ in mind when choosing which direction to fly in/punch him towards, but finding it incredibly difficult to force the direction of the fight.

6. At this point we've still got the other kryptonians in Black Zero, Faora attacking the plane, as well as Jenny trapped about to die with Perry holding her hand.

All of that culminates in this scene, which is somethinf I thought would be great since first discussion the movie, similar to the one we got with a very different ending.

Supes and Zod end up in a street full of people watching in horror. Zod keeps trying to go after people, and Supes just about manages to stop him each time. Finally, he has him beat, in the head lock, ready for that killing blow, when zod says 'you'll have to kill me to stop me!'

And then there is this moment, where you can see how much he wants to. And he's looking at the Black Zero, with the army plane not far from reaching it now, knowing the odds of him actually getting Zod there are pretty slim.

But he looks up at the people watching, just everyday citizens, families, a little girl holding a teddy bear covered in ash... (maybe even a young ginger kid taking pictues) and he realises what killing Zod, especially in front of all these people, would mean... that if they saw that, they'd never trust him again and he'd be sending out a message he just doesn't want to send - and so the anger starts to fall from his face, replaced by determination. He knows what he has to do.

At which point he says 'No, Zod. You're a criminal, and you belong back in the prizon you came from.'

So he puts everything he has into flying towards Black Zero, arm still around Zod's neck. And you can see them both struggling, and Zod trying to pull away as he's realised the implications of what that means, but Superman is putting as much effort into this flight (as he did the destruction of the World Enginge in the actual film... enough to make him scream with just the same effort). And it's only at just the last minute that Zod manages to break free of his grip, but it's too late. They are close enough to the plane crashing into the ship for Superman to super punch him into the Phantom Zone as it begins to emerge, with one last lingering shot of him struggling to not be sucked in.

It starts to pull on Superman then too, but that's when he sees Lois falling to her death, and it gives him that extra incentive to drag himself out of the pull of the Zone in order to catch her.

Que the 'He saved all of us' line, the kiss, and subsequant scenes.

Would that have really been so difficult to make work?

Because what you're doing is having Superman avoid a difficult moral choice. This time he just didn't have a choice; let people die or kill.

Just tell me, go from the bit where Superman has Zod and Zod's heat vision is moving steadily to innocent people. Tell us, put your Superman in that position, what would YOUR superman do?

I think the post was pretty obvious, his Superman wouldn't let himself get put in that position.

I thought it was a really brave way to tell the story. It really was a no win scenario for Superman. There was abosolutely no way to contain Zod at that point, Superman had absolutely no other option.

__________________
Until Spidey and MJ are back together again, Make Mine DC, 'nuff said.