I understand completely what you are saying oneplusone. I am realising this is after all the breakthrough I needed.I have to admit in the past I could not relate to your posts or what you were going through and I could not relate to the stuff AM said in her book, I read drama back then and it just brought me down.I realise how adept I must be at 'avoiding' 'feeling' my feelings. The discomfort is overwhelming. I too have used anger, suppression, distraction anything but 'feel' the emotions that lay beneath.I think I am only just beginning to access them now.I relate to what you are saying about not having the empathy for another unless you are able to access those feeling because as Ive stated before I have a huge fear of shame and being shamed. This comes up often because I was shamed for 'everything' because nothing I did was good enough. I couldnt achieve the perfection my mother constantly demanded of me. I push the shame away with anger so quickly I am unable to feel the impact and discomfort of that feeling.I think if I did allow myself to I would stop doing what I am doing to DH and it would safeguard dcs also. As it stands I do try and seperate and identify 'behaviour' that I am unhappy with for ds and I have and never will name call as was done to me because 'logically' I know what that does to self esteem despite not allowing myself to feel humiliation as I did as a child. Last night it upset me though that DH cried and I felt cold

smithfield, you are right about all the layers coming off and all there is underneath is a scared, lonely little girl. That's exactly how i feel. I realise now i have acted tough all my life, either that or i got angry. Whenever anyone in my family let me down, said something nasty/hurtful/catty i just swallowed my hurt feelings and pretended i didn't care, that it didn't hurt me. Or i got angry but could never ever say that i was actually hurt and upset and tell them why. I have been so used to hiding and not feeling my emotions, i think i have forgotten how to feel them and am having to learn how to 'feel my feelings'.

The other day i was let down by my sister over something and in the past although for a split second i would have felt hurt, i would have immediately pushed my hurt feelings away and acted like i wasn't bothered and would rationalise her letting me down ie she did because of x, y and z so i am wrong to feel upset. But this time i didn't do that, i actually felt upset and i allowed the feeling through. It was a real first for me which i'm sure sounds so weird to you. I realise now as a child, in order to survive the cruelty and constant let downs of my parents and sisters i had to push my hurt and pain away as it was too much for me to bear as a child. But of course our feelings are crucial in order for us to have empathy and compassion, particularly for our DC's, and i am sure that my previous inability to 'feel my feelings' was a big factor in my 'coldness' towards DD. Like many of you have said, if DD hurt herself or was upset for any reason i found it so hard if not impossible to give her any sympathy or even simply to feel upset that my DD was upset. It is slow progress but i am finding now more and more that i am far less cold towards DD, i do feel her pain as my pain which of course compels me to comfort and cuddle her as she wants and needs me to.

It is like 'beating a new path' through my brain as someone once said on here. It is very very difficult to reprogram a way of behaving that is so ingrained, but my experience proves that it is possible and i feel this is the key to ensure we do not damage or hurt our DC's the way we were hurt. It is common for abused children to be cut off from their feelings and i didn't even realise i was cut off from my feelings until the other day when 'felt my feelings' for the first time in my conscious memory.

Smithfield, i can relate to you feeling upset by what AM writes and that you feel you are damaging your DC's. I felt exactly the same and also felt panicky about it. But i got through it. If you read everything AM says, it will actually make you feel better. She says that even if some damage is done to your DC's, it's effects can pretty much be eradicated, once you realise the truth about yourself and your own childhood. Because once you are consciously aware of how your own parents hurt you, you simply cannot repeat the pattern with your own children. It is only parents who have no awareness of the damage done to them in childhood who go on to repeat the same patterns with their own children. So just by the very fact you are on this thread means you will do very little damage to your DC's. Also you and i and everyone here have suffered a whole childhood and indeed adulthood of damage at the hands of our parents. Whereas, whilst i know i have done some damage to DD before i became self aware as i am now, she will not have to endure a lifetime of it as, like i have already said my relationship with her has improved so dramatically that i know i am already minimising the effect of any damage already done to her. I hope this makes sense to you, it's quite hard to explain.

suzi, i'm glad you mailed Alice, I have spent hours reading through the readers' mail section on her website and find it really interesting and helpful, in a way it's kind of like this thread, with real life people and stories.

AN, i totally agree with your interpretation of AM and think you're spot on. I cut myself off from my parents and sisters over 2 years ago (although i am now back in contact with my sisters) and i said in one of my posts a while ago that whilst it felt painful to know i had no family anymore, in fact all that had happened was my 'external reality' now matched the 'internal reality' i had always had in my head. ie now from the outside it looked like i had no family, but inside my head i had always felt alone and like i had no family for as long as i could remember.

I wrote a long post yesterday but it disappeared in a puff of smoke when i tried to send it, and i wish i had the energy to rewrite it, but it's just too hard.

This must be what I experienced when I had ds. I stood up to her and then I think I panicked and felt so overwhelmed by the fear of standing up to her, and the consequences of that, that I went back on it all and appeased her.

AN- I totally relate to everything you have posted. It is absolutely how I feel currently too. The panic 'IS' dreadful...I wonder if I am copping out by taking the AD's but currently they are not staving it off anyway.I know the actual abuse itself was different for both of us but I think the impact on us has been similar. Its like we both fear rejection by them more than anything else. Or maybe we fear their anger more than anything else? And yes like we have been brainwashed to accept the blame for all that happened to us. The threat of rejection or fear that we couldnt survive without them is so powerful.Panic attacks and asthma? I felt like I couldnt breathe as a child and so now I suffer that sensation physically as an adult.

I think this is honestly a theme for me and I am only just realising it. Every time I tried to assert my independence from them I have suffered from severe panic and/or depression. It really has blighted my life and all I have tried to do to maintain that independence. It like this powerful message of 'YOU ARE NOTHING WITHOUT US' Its overwhelming.The bigger issue seems to be my father, I remember thinking when I was a teen and really angry with him for something that if I fell out with him he would 'never' speak to me again. Why would I think that? I remember feeling SO sad about that. I realise now that what it meant was that his love was TOTALLY conditional, as was my mothers. Conditional on my submitting to them and to their needs.I hate how they have given me such a peverse view of myself. That I am powerless and always in the wrong (hangover from being a scapegoat). I realise that is why I have to check if I am in the right and need approval that my feelings about any of this and anything to do with MIL are valid. Its because I was always 'wrong' in their eyes.If I had a disagreement with Joe blogs my mum would say 'well maybe you did this or did that or said this or said that wrong'. I used to think why dont you EVER stick up for me? Maybe she knew if she ever let me think I was right I might think I was right against her?Yes and Alice Miller is winding me right up . No disrespect to those who are finding her useful of course.I guess though it did only occur to me that I maybe experiencing these feelings of panic and anxiety from childhood after reading her stuff.

Smithfield, so relieved you are back! It sounds like the phonecall was the first time you were reallydefinate and direct about not wanting contact and you felt the disconnect more than you ever have before. If I am wrong I am sorry to confuse you. It's just that after my last letter to Bro where I was definate and direct about how it is going to be when he leaves prison and that he can not see my children and DH I started to have feelings which I imagine to be like panic attacks which I hadn't had so much with the first letter which I thought should be more scary!

I'm still feeling panic off and on at the fact that I have made the decision and there is no going back. It feels worse that he hasn't responded and I don't know if and how angry it has made him. I also feel panic that I feel I might be about to decide not to see parents if the visit next Sunday feels really bad and I've decided in my mind that if this is what I want I will just tell DH that is what I'm doing and he doesn't have a choice.

I've been reading the Alice Miller website as well and the way I have interpreted it is we are panicky because we have made them angry by saying what we want (which we have EVERY right to) and if they get angry they might not love us and if we have no family because they don't love us we are scared about feeling alone in the world, as we would have been if we made them too angry when we were children. They taught us then that it was dangerous to make them angry and the fear has stayed with us. It is a hangover from old survival instincts which we don't need anymore. We need to unlearn it. We CAN now survive in the world without them, we couldn't then, but now we are independent adults with more power.

We aren't really losing anything and being any more alone than we already were because we didn't feel they loved us enough already! They weren't being adequate family to us already! We are just being as scared as we would have been if we were still children, which we are in some ways because that part of us was never nurtured enough by anyone to grow up.

I don't think your childhood was average and ok. If it was you wouldn't be feeling so awful years after and wouldn't be panicking when you think about them! They want you to think it was normal so that they can get away with it without confrontations or consequences and I see this as a form of brainwashing which makes me really angry - especially as it seems like they are almost winning - with both of us! (all my doubts about whether I'm doing the right thing by following my feelings are a symptom of them winning with their brainwashing).

I'm really not sure if I'm making any sense and some of these thoughts have only been coming to me in the last few days. What if I'm being utterly paranoid and letting people like Alice Miller wind me up (she has been really winding me up as well!) But I think it is healthy in the long run and that the title of one of her books is probably true - The Truth Will Set You Free.....in the end. But this panicky phase of it is fucking horrible to go through.

Hi I dont know what to write because Im finding it hard to understand my own feelings let alone deal with them.I just have immense anxiety (which has been diagnosed as pnd) I wake up with it, I have it mainly when im alone with the dcs but I also had it last night when they were in bed and dh was with me This all stems back to 'the' phonecall and I havent had contact since putting the block on anonymous calls.I relate to what AN has written. I think at times I just want to have limited contact and will that make the anxiety go away?Am I feeling what I felt as a kid?Or is it an illness (pnd) and totally unrelated. And why dont I know my own mind?The main feeling of guilt is with regards to dd and depriving them of her. But at times Im not sure if its guilt or actual fear because when I think about it its like Im thinking 'what have I done!' and the anxiety hits me like a tonne of bricks.I guess I have my mothers voice ringing in my ears saying I am 'wicked'.I do need to speak to someone but the thought of trying to interview therapists whilst I am in this state is all too much for me atm.I tried reading some alice miller last night and looked at her website, but frankly I find her writing very upsetting and uncomfortable. It makes me feel when I read her stuff that I am damaging my dc's and I wouldnt even know. It makes me feel hopeless and powerless.Last night Dh cried because I make him feel THAT bad with some of the things I say/way I react to him. He says its like I have no respect for him at all. I never knew how bad he felt. I feel this is all me and I am the fucked up person and I just had an average upbringing with the usual arguments and in-fighting and I should just get over it. Sorry just writing thought as they come so probably jumbled and senseless.

oneplusone, the more I read your posts the more I feel you are like me (but a few steps ahead in the process).... I have the same issue with my mother and am determined not to pass on the same type of relationship to my three sons. I have the same anger as you which I am trying to understand and control, I have a sister who is behaving with her daughter exactly like our Mum behaved with us and I worry for my neice who is 6. I lost contact with my best friend for many years as she would side with my mother (and my in-laws for that matter)...... I am waiting for Alice Miller's booke to arrive and want explore this whole topic more. I emailed Alice directly and she sent me a very insightful response.... so thanks for the tip! I have found just chatting and talking about this here and with dh is a big step forward. I am already concentrating hard on being more loving and calm with the children. This has been such a positive experience!

I can understand that. You don't want to have to drag it up, for fear that it will make things worse not better maybe? Your mind shuts things out because its knows it was a bad thing, making it all seem a bit surreal. For me, during my therapy, dragging things up made me worse, but my sessions didn't continue for long enough for me to know how to make them better. So I am kind of still in limbo.

I used to lay there too wondering when I could go home. But I knew that if i went home, then he might start on my younger sister. And I didn't want that. I suppose in a way, thats why I always agreed to go, so he wouldn't.

Bugger. am sat here sobbing now.

INMGBSLM, have you had any therapy? (sorry havent had chance to read the other threads yet) has any of it helped a little?

I wonder if I am just scared. I think back to one particulat incident where I was kicked for something and I can't quite believe that little girl was/is me. I really don't want it to be true so I try and pretend it was another life and not really me.

I also analyse everything that I am weird about and give reasons for it.

I have always known the sexual abuse wasn't my fault but I do feel it is my fault I didn't hit him, shout no, try and get away. I did lie there thinking how do I get out of this house but even if I could have done, where would I have gone?

AN, yes I have tried the EMDR but then my therapist went off sick and never came back. I think I got forgotten! I found it very hard work and mentally draining. I would come out of the sessions in absolute tears.

MamaG I know what you mean. Its so hard to believe that someday, someone might be able to help. One day, someone will invent memory transplants and I can erase all the bad stuff! You get to the the point where you wonder why you bother trying to find the help. It's easier to carry on yourself and just live with it. Then you have bad days. And they drag you back down.

My 'mother' knows about what GF did to me. I blame her. She knew that he had abused his daughter adn even asked my mother to 'help him out' once, and still she sent me there. He used to pay me every weekend for 'doing his housework' Nothing like feeling like a prostitute at the age of 9-13!

My maternal nanna (who I am cloe to) knows now, but I felt I could only tell her when he was dead, which was a few years ago now.

Laweaselmys, I hope you manage to avoid your mother. Does she live close by? Are you closer to your dad? Hope your pregnancy is going otherwise? I was worried about having a girl. My first was a boy and she idolises him, to the point of smothering. She ignores my other 3 dcs

Oh, AnAngel! That's terrible, I personally haven't tried therapy, but I'm considering it and I definately think it's worth a try, especially in your case where there were different people involved. Sometimes it's nice to just have people to talk to who get to know all your history and can help you rethink the way you look at things. Hopefully with the end result being feeling a bit more peaceful about it!

*

Since everything is so 'sensitive' (pah) with my mother right now when my dad popped by last night to drop off some work I'm doing for him we started talking about her, I got really upset and tried to talk to him about it. As he didn't really understand that I wasn't just upset because she is being so unsupportive (which I don't really care that much about anymore as was expected) but that I was really scared that she would repeat behaviour with jr, given half a chance. Again am particularly worried about this being the case if I have a girl. Because I'm pretty sure (and Dad agrees!) her manipulative behaviour is all based on trying to dominate her D's into doing what she always wanted to do - and that it has got worse the older we got and the more obvious it was we weren't going too.

Anyway had a long chat with dad and told him about a lot of the stuff that had been going on for years and that I had tried to tell him before but it seemed more like he understood more then than he has before and he suggested that if I was worried he would make sure either myself or him would be with jr at all times around my mother. I was thinking of something like this myself, and I'm prepared to accept this because she never behaved in the ways I have described when she thought my dad was around... would always wait for him to go out, or be out of earshot etc. I was a bit scared of bringing up the concept of cutting her out completely as I'm not sure if he'd be prepared to go that far. He basically wants me to give her one more chance (with very strict rules) to see if she will behave better with the arrival of a grandchild (it's her first one) but I'm just not convinced. If she does behave badly it will be in years to come, when I then have to explain that even though she probably seems fine and (relatively) normal to the rest of the kids (hee hee, I want lots!) that they can't have any contact with her anymore.

I don't know if it's more unfair of me to do it from the start having not given her a chance, or wait and see if she behaves abusively towards my kids??

Hmm. Mother just tried to call me, sent her to voicemail (Bless mobile phones and caller ID) and will sureptitiously pretend I am not in if she knocks. Sometimes just cannot be arsed, plus I don't know if dad has spoken to her about our conversation yesterday. Usually the after effect of confronting her about such things is a very tearful phone call in which she claims she has not done anything wrong, never meant to hurt etc etc, but never actually acknowledges or apologies for anything she has done. I find this insulting and very upsetting.

NotMamaG, please don't give up on getting help because you think too much happened. It just might take longer with you than with other people. You deserve to get the help though. It is not your fault if bad things kept on happening to you. Therapist said to me several times - abusive people sense when people are vulnerable (because being abused already has made them vulnerable) and they seek vulnerable people out to abuse. So if you have been abused by several people, this is why and it is not your fault, you didn't ask for it, you were just vulnerable. The abuse is always the abuser's fault not the victim's. Another thing Therapist likes saying is "They would have known that what they were doing was wrong".

Angel, of course I wasn't expecting you to have got the police involved when you were a terrified traumatised child but I thought your 'mother's' husband might have done something about it! Otherwise it sounds like so many others on here who have one person abusing them and another one acting as a bystander and doing NOTHING to help .

Also that your 'mother' has never admitted to doing it and just expects you to forget it and sympathise about her trivial crap now! I can't imagine how hard it must be to have contact with her still.

Do any of your family know about what your GF did?

I've found a good therapist and I do feel it is helping but what happened to me is not as bad as what happened to you. I say to Therapist that other people go through worse so I shouldn't feel so bad and he says "It doesn't work like that". Don't know if he is right or not. Have you heard of EMDR? It is for post traumatic stress. Do you think this might help you and your sister? I haven't had it although Therapist has suggested it a couple of times.

I feel the same. I have had some counselling but it doesn't help. I feel like I have had so many unusual expereinces that how can anyone help? I have to see a psychiatrist soon to access how much my childhood experiences have damaged me and I am already fretting about it.

ImnotMamaGbutsheLovesMe, I am the same. I hate anything around my neck!! polos are impossible. I can just about wear a necklace but i have to take it of at night. I don't wear one though usually.

My crime for that episode was that me and my sister were having a little joke together, and I made my sister laugh so much she squealed I was 9, and had just got back from a weekend of being abused by my paternal grandfather. She still to this day denies ever doing that to me, but watching her do that to me has left my sister traumatised too. I am not very close to my sister either. I have always found it hard to be close to women in the family. The only person I love more than anyone else (apart from DH and Dcs) is my nanna (maternal grandmother).

AN, not the police didn't get involved. I was too scared. As any chil would be. I still have occasional contact with 'mother'. I don't see her very often. She lives quite a way from me now. She only texts me when she wants to moan about what bad situation/how ill she is this week! I only really keep the peace with her for the sake of my ill nan. Once my nan has gone it will be easier to sever the ties as such.

AnAngel that is terrible. Good god who could do that to their own child? Is she deranged?

Yes you can talk about any abuse here.

Well even if she denies it happened, we believe you and that is just one memory? It was not your fault...I hope you know that?

I hope you can keep talking...we won't dismiss you and your feelings here All for one and one for all

AN - not read any Alice Miller just bits from webpage, Oneplusone comes up with bits and pieces from her books though So which should I start with Oneplusone? Keep meaning to get one...just where to start

Re your going round in circles...no no that's me! Keep doing it...you will get there in the end and help others with your thoughts in the meantime. And its a good thought to hold onto re your dad being nice...he has not acknowledged your pain. Would you forgive and be friendly with a criminal friend who had robbed you if they did not fully repent and apologise and actually mean it?

AnAngelWithin - Welcome course you can join in...share what you are ready to share.

AN - NO! That better? You cannot let them off the hook, they were your parents, they were responsible, you told your mother what was happening, alarm bells would have been going off like crazy for any concerned mother! You and your bro physically fighting in front of your dad should have made him realise something was desparately wrong...then he hits either of you because hitting is wrong yet to see the logic of parents smacking and hitting. They may be milder now, it happens with age. I think with my parents it was down to the fact they needed me...but when I needed them they were not there...and because I have a consience I feel guilty over cutting contact, strange your parents/my parents never seemed to feel bad over ignoring our pleas for help...

Re your dh, my therapist said that my dh's logic was a red herring...there is only feelings. Start with 'I feel incrediably anxious, insomanictic (sp!), frightened at seeing my parents, I do not want to see them or be around them..' etc...keep on with your feelings because they are what count...not dh's embarrassment or discomfort...your his wife fgs...you need to be in good mental health for your dc, and if that means cutting off family, then that is what it means...try it as a trial separation if that is what feels better for you. Just don't be fobbed off with logic.

Itati - fantastic! That will be a relief. When is psychatrist? Support is free of charge no need to give back You just keep coming for support and lets get you through this in one piece (((((itati)))))

Oneplusone - I do remember someone doing that with a pillow in therpy on here but I'm sure the real thing will be much more satisfying Seriously, do they show any sign of taking responsibility for their actions? Of changing at all? They don't have to meet you face to face, it can be via email/letter to determine if they are genuine or not. But yes...being old is a motivator to take up the victim role <rolls eyes>. As for your friend... my friends heads are rolling left right and center at the moment...quite scary because I feel vurable not having lots of friends anymore...and worrying constantly if its 'me' being paranoid (dh says that a lot about me and my friendships he does not have my antenna for fruitn'nut friends)...but if I have them around me...I feel bad about myself. So I choose to lose them. If your friend is asking about your parents feelings should she not be concerned about your feelings??? Couple of my mates try this with me...they are on very thin ice right now.

Laweaselmys - Glad your sickness has gone off still not nice in the evening though.

I don't think I was the only one worrying about having a girl on this thread...it does put you in mind of childhood. I think looking 2.4yrs down the line my dd is very different to me as a child. She looks different (but still has similarities) she is confident, smiley, happy...all the things I was not...there is no comparison...except when I do something to hurt her...then my heart wrings something terrible for me and for her. I'm so aware of the past everyday (you do relive it unfortunately) its easy to observe your actions...however at times you do find yourself unconciously repeating behaviour from dm... but with my dh's help and a therapist and my own (painful) insight I have managed to stop those unhelpful behaviours. Still constantly sure I'm cocking up her childhood tho Anyhoo...now I have a dd, I can't imagine having a ds! I do worry also that if my dd starts picking on db when older I will see red due to my sisters cruel bullying of me and over react... just had a test run with that tho...got a kitten, highly recommend getting one as a practice run for having two children. Dd has been awful to him at times...but we do seem to be over the worse now...its taken about 4 months for them to settle down together...consistancy on my part...and quite a bit of 'overreacting' to her bullying him I think I have it cracked now tho...<crosses fingers and toes>. In fact thinking on...she shouts at him (in the kitchen ) like I do...that is bullying the kitten now so now seeing kitten as me as a child ...best start teaching him not to jump on surfaces and teach dd how to teach him...without shouting 'out Out OUT!'......

Sorry rambling now...has your mum been in contact again? Less doom and gloom and getting abortions . Re visits...see how you feel. My blow up with my mum came at 8 mths pg...not a good time. Just be aware her behaviour may deterioate at this time. Mothers with issues tend to have problems at big events such as weddings and babies...the power of motherhood is stripped from them...they try to do anything to get it back again. If you have a conversation and she's wanting you to do something and you don't know how to say no or instinctively want to say yes...just try to say you will discuss with dp and have a think about it...leave it in the air.

God Angel, that is seriously shocking!!!!. I know it isn't my fault but I really want to say I'm so so sorry that happened to you. No child should ever have to go through that whatever the provocation to your mother was! No adult should go through it let alone a vulnerable child! Did the police get involved? Do you still have contact with her?

LaWeasel, One minute I can say how I feel, the next minute I feel I shouldn't feel it/say it because I feel sorry for them. My dad just phoned because it is his birthday and I sent him a card and talked in a friendly way and seemed easy to talk to (about nothing of consequence) and I felt ok. It confuses me. If I can get along with him like this it makes me think I am wrong to think about cutting off and hurting him/them. But then I remember my childhood and I feel angry and hurt. I need to get the anger out somehow but if he keeps being nice to me I feel too guilty to feel the anger.

I'm so sorry I seem to keep saying the same things in different ways in my posts, but I feel at a sticking point of confusion.

Just had a thought, maybe I could feel the anger by thinking "Don't keep brainwashing me into not dealing with my anger by being nice and acting normal when you know I have lots to be angry with you about. You are still acting like nothing happened and that it's ok that those things happened to me".

OnePlusOne, about your friend who doesn't support you in your feelings about your parents. From reading the Alice Miller articles I am thinking maybe she is trying to convince you to forgive your parents because if you don't then she might feel she should face up to what her parents did to her and the thought of this frightens her because she doesn't believe she is strong enough to do it.

Ally, I don't have any Alice Miller books and I'm trying to decide which one would be most relevant to my stuff. I was thinking about The Drama of the Gifted Child because OnePlusOne said this one really helped her with her relationship with DD. Have you read them all? Which ones do you think are the best?

oh there is so much to read on this thread!! I am sorry in avance if i fail to acknowledge anyone! I won't mean too!!

Well I suppose I could start with a couple of bad memories. One of the memories thats haunts me the most is my mother nearly killing me. She dragged me across the floor from the bathroom to my bedroom by my hair. She was hitting me and hitting me while she was sat on top of me. She had her hands choking me around my neck, smashing my head against the tiled floor. I remember seeing her husband running towards us, and then everything going black. I woke up in bed later on. She acted like nothing had happened. She still does now.

I am not sure whether this is the right thread for the physical side though or if its the mental side? if that makes sense. If its the latter then I am sorry.