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Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

Originally Posted by Apocalypse

My dog is my best friend in the world.

When I said that animals are closer in their essence to a TV or a table than they are to human beings I've meant that they are closer to not having thoughts and feelings at all, i.e. being objects, than they are to having the complex emotional and thinking capabilities that the average human being has. That clearly doesn't mean they have no feelings or emotions at all the way an object doesn't have.

btw, you are aware you use the exact same argument as slavers did? "The negro is inferior, ape-like, and my property, to do with as i please." In fact, they were legally property.

Before we get all high nosed about our status as a uniquely 'intelligent' species, it's important to consider that our genetics are 98% identical to chimps, and that dolphins are arguably self aware. Pets have been known to rescue their human companions. Would a ****ing table do that? Apes have made effective use of tools and learned sign language. Some are plenty smarter than most humans i've met.

About the only things humans are capable of that no animal species is, to my knowledge, is the ability to form some kind of 'philosophy' and to construct objects many times larger than us. However, 99% of philosophies have proven useless or dead wrong, and these objects have also unleashed a floodgate towards runaway pollution and weapons of mass destruction. Our ability to solve our way out of self-created problems is seriously in doubt. I don't see any animal species ****ing up the planet quite like humans, so let's pay them some respect.

As to those emotionless objects you dismiss as inferior, computer AI is expected to soon far exceed the thinking capabilities of any humans. By your logic, we will ourselves be closer to tables and no more than property to the computers

Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

Originally Posted by X Factor

You view your "best friend" as something akin to a table worth no more consideration. What a lucky dog.

That's hardly what I said.
Saying that a meteor is closer in its average velocity to zero velocity than to the speed of light does not mean that it has zero velocity or that it cannot be labeled as "insanely fast".

I couldn't disagree with this more. Animals, by being living creatures, are far more like us than they are like a table or something. On the contrary, I think someone denies or who's cold to or unconcerned about animal suffering and views them as mere property to be treated and disposed of in any manner has more on common with a table than they do with me.

And again that's not what I said.
I believe that humans are so complex and advanced in both their IQ and their EQ that it's ridiculous to compare them to any other form of living beings, such as a dog, and yes because of that animals are closer to the definition of "property" than they are to the definition of "persons", so looking to change the law so it recognizes animals as "persons" is morally wrong in my mind.

You're engaging this from an emotional point of view and if I'd have done the same I'd share your opinion, but I don't.

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

btw, you are aware you use the exact same argument as slavers did? "The negro is inferior, ape-like, and my property, to do with as i please." In fact, they were legally property.

Only that black people aren't animals and they are actually just as human as white people are, so unless you're claiming animals are mislabeled as inferior to humans when they aren't you're not having a point here.

Before we get all high nosed about our status as a uniquely 'intelligent' species, it's important to consider that our genetics are 98% identical to chimps, and that dolphins are arguably self aware. Pets have been known to rescue their human companions. Would a ****ing table do that? Apes have made effective use of tools and learned sign language. Some are plenty smarter than most humans i've met.

Just like X you have taken to the belief that because I said animals are closer to an object than they are to a person that suddenly means they have no emotions or thinking capabilities at all. I haven't said it, so do concern yourself with what I said and not with what you'd like to have me say eh.

About the only things humans are capable of that no animal species is, to my knowledge, is the ability to form some kind of 'philosophy' and to construct objects many times larger than us. However, 99% of philosophies have proven useless or dead wrong, and these objects have also unleashed a floodgate towards runaway pollution and weapons of mass destruction. Our ability to solve our way out of self-created problems is seriously in doubt. I don't see any animal species ****ing up the planet quite like humans, so let's pay them some respect.

If they were half intelligent as human beings are they would have ****ed up the planet quite like humans do. And the way you label human intelligence as simply being the abilities to "create useless objects and philosophies" is ridiculous. We've extended our life length by more than twice in few millenniums, we're capable of traveling out to space, what the hell are you even talking about. Show me a chimp that understands Einstein's theory of relativity or Newton's three laws of motions and then we'll talk.

As to those emotionless objects you dismiss as inferior, computer AI is expected to soon far exceed the thinking capabilities of any humans. By your logic, we will ourselves be closer to tables and no more than property to the computers

I don't believe that the ability to create a true AI is something that is within our technological reach. Regardless even if it could happen no one can know what level of intelligence will such machines reach or if they'll exceed human beings at all, and not just be humans with a much faster calculation speed.

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

Originally Posted by Apocalypse

That's hardly what I said.
Saying that a meteor is closer in its average velocity to zero velocity than to the speed of light does not mean that it has zero velocity or that it cannot be labeled as "insanely fast".

And again that's not what I said.
I believe that humans are so complex and advanced in both their IQ and their EQ that it's ridiculous to compare them to any other form of living beings, such as a dog, and yes because of that animals are closer to the definition of "property" than they are to the definition of "persons", so looking to change the law so it recognizes animals as "persons" is morally wrong in my mind.

You're engaging this from an emotional point of view and if I'd have done the same I'd share your opinion, but I don't.

Yes, animals strongly engage my emotions. I see in my dogs a lot of things I can identify with. I know they get hungry as I do, sometimes they're needing extra attention and sometimes they get sick or hurt. I know they have thoughts and emotions. All things that I experience. You think your dog, living, breathing feeling creature that it is, is only very slightly different than a table when compared to you? No, I believe my dogs have far more in common with me than any inanimate object I have around the house and I have more in common with my dogs than many people.

Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

Originally Posted by X Factor

Yes, animals strongly engage my emotions. I see in my dogs a lot of things I can identify with. I know they get hungry as I do, sometimes they're needing extra attention and sometimes they get sick or hurt. I know they have thoughts and emotions. All things that I experience. You think your dog, living, breathing feeling creature that it is, is only very slightly different than a table when compared to you? No, I believe my dogs have far more in common with me than any inanimate object I have around the house and I have more in common with my dogs than many people.

I think just like you do that dogs have emotions, they have thoughts of their own and I can see it all in my dog as well, I just think that human emotions and thinking capabilities are on a whole different level so to grant animals such as dogs the recognition in law that they are "persons" is wrong in my opinion.

Do dogs deserve education then? Should they go to the same schools humans go to? You see how absurd this all can become.

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

Re: Should animals have more rights/protection/etc

Originally Posted by Juanita

Could very well be. I am an animal lover who has had all sorts of animals through the years from chimps, spider monkeys, racoon's and a boa constrictor. Now I have ten rescue dogs including two hybrid wolves that I raised from 12 days old and two kitties. My motto is that a house is not a home without some critters!

I'm an animal lover too, but I can only afford to keep reptiles at the moment, I refuse to get an animal that I may not be able to adequately care for, soon as I can afford to I will be getting dogs and cats and horses and God knows what else. But, back to the thread, we're both arguing creatures deserve rights based on intelligence, I just set the bar higher than you.

So follow me into the desert
As desperate as you are
Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
And all the little pigs have God