Providence Marathon, 2013-05-12, 3:09:00, AHR 171. Felt like a pretty even effort until ~17mi or so, and then I had to hold on tight to keep on pace. 1 min negative split, but HR shows how hard I had to work to get there.

Lehigh Valley Marathon, 2013-09-08, 3:00:17, AHR 173. Similar story to Providence: pretty even pacing (I think it was a ~60s positive split), but with a good push at the end to keep that pace.

Chicago Marathon, 2013-10-13, 3:08:12, AHR 174. 5 weeks after Lehigh, and no push. In fact, I cratered, fell off 6:50 pace to 8:00, and my HR went down.

New Bedford Half Marathon, 2014-03-16, 1:23:23, AHR 171. This felt like the most even and controlled race I've run, especially once I got past the hills (around minute 25 on the chart below).

I'm not quite sure what to make of this, and I'm always nervous about overfitting when looking at individual HR charts. Caveats aside, I suppose it's a good sign that what was previous my MP HR is now my ~LT HR.

I'll admit to being confused about that a bit though - it's not like I was taking it so easy on Sunday that I could have kept it up for another 13.1, and nor does it make sense that I'd race my next FM at a lower HR than past ones. Isn't pace the thing that's supposed to change as fitness improves? Or maybe I accidentally sandbagged Sunday?

Dan, I think that's really interesting. I wish your HR graph for the first half of Lehigh wasn't so spiky. Was it hilly or was your sensor not working properly? Mine look like that sometimes at the start when I don't have enough sweat going for the sensor to work properly. I always mean to pour water on it before, but always forget. I think it actually picks up a mix of your cadence and heart rate.

Did you have it on auto-lap for mile splits, or do it reliably manually during the race? If so, can post the average heart rates for providence and lehigh? I dropped mine into excel and get the graph I attached. It's shows a pretty clear distinction between my HM and FM.

I also agree that you don't want to run your FM at a very different HR than your previous even split marathons, I just can't tell what that HR was from those graphs. When I run boston, I'll probably pick a target pace (6:30?) but will really use my HR more than pace for the first 15 miles or so. I'll probably pick a HR a little higher than my fall marathon and keep it within 2 beats of that. Probably between 142 and 146.

Wow what a week !!! I scanned thru quickly while I was on the train this morning and was so impressed by all the half PR's this week. Congratulations to everyone that raced.

Strugglr - Sorry about the marathon. Dust yourself off and try again. You probably should have raced a half. Seemed like the race to PR this week.

Frank - Holy crap Nice Half PR !!! I feel like your right where I was last year. I increased my mileage and didn't realize how much fitter I became. I started hitting times at races I didn't think I could ever do. You seem to be doing all the right things and it's showing in your race results.

Slammin & Meo - You guys are just animals !!

Dan, Patrick - These half times are great signs for your upcoming marathons.

I must have the softest half time on this thread. I almost beat it the second half of my last marathon. You guys have definitely inspired me to improve it. I'll have to remedy that in the fall. My week was moving along smoothly until the weekend. I forgot spring soccer started again with my kids. I did manage to squeak out 75 miles with taking Sunday as an off day. Nothing majorly hard this week except for the mini "Truth Run" ( Named by Slammin) on Monday. 2 miles @7:30 then 4 miles @ 6:08 avg then 4 miles @ 5:56 avg finishing with 2 miles @ 7:30. The other fairly hard run I did was on Thursday on the TM - 4 miles @ 4% incline @ 7:13 pace then 3 miles flat @ 5:52 pace. Everything else for the week was fairly easy pace. My long run was @ 7:50 avg pace.

2015 Goals:Squeeze whatever I have left in my old body to PR at any distance. If not retire and get fat

Strugglr, I think there is a huge range of heart rate differences which seem to have zero basis on fitness or genetic ability. My max is 175, so I'm somewhere near 142 for the first half of my marathon. I think I should be able to get this above 145 with more training.

OK, I didn't run yesterday, and haven't run yet today. I think I'm starting to get premature taper madness so need to go for a run now. I just went through the results from last years New Bedford Half Marathon and looked up every finisher from 1:17:00 to 1:19:00, then cross referenced them against last years Boston Marathon results to see how they did (trying to decide what my goal should be). It turns out that these "fast" half marathons have some really crappy marathons (crappy meaning huge positive splits, not finishing time).

Don't plan on a 2:00 positive split, because then you might just run a 2:00 positive split when you could run less than a 2:00 positive split. Before my 2:48, I ran 25k: 1:38:57, 4 mile: 23:39, HM (10@MP): 1:23:5x, 10k: 37:10. I went 1:23:30/1:25:11. So 1:41 positive split.

Use gmaclin's spreadsheet. Put in 2:48:59 (or 2:49:30). Fiddle with the settings. Then go from there. For Boston, optimal pacing is probably more in line with 60-90 sec positive split, though many have managed to run fast times with negative splits. A 2:49:59 is 6:29.x/mile pace. You just ran 13.1 miles @ 6:00/mile pace. 6:29 pace (especially with most of the 1st 16 miles downhill) should feel very comfortable for you.

Your list also shows that a lot of people either don't know what shape they were in, or run the first 16 miles of Boston way too fast.

Does one gain any fitness from racing a marathon? I assume the answer is yes but it takes a few weeks to see results. Then combined with the recovery period the overall result is no gain or even some loss of fitness.

Related question; can I expect to be able to race a 10 miler 3 weeks after my marathon this past weekend? I mean race it expecting a pre-marathon result? Or should I expect to be slower and choose a more conservative pace?

Nimmals – When you get a NYRR top-ten age award, do they actually give/send you anything?

I was 23rd in my M4044 AG, but if I were a year older I would've been 7th in M4549. Also kind of cool, the difference between my official 10k and 20k splits was 37:25.

Dan – Thanks very much for all the hammy advice. I used a tennis ball and am feeling improvement today. I'm considering an easy treadmill run this evening to assess.

(Sometimes it actually bugs me that you guys know more about my training, fitness and injuries than I do. But not often.)

CBF – How is your recovery going? What's your plan for the next week or two?

Gershwine – Thanks!

Patrick25905 - I am not sure what, or if they do give awards. I have only gotten one award for NYRR races. I got a 2nd for 30-39 in the 5th Avenue mile right after the race at the awards ceremony, I gave away the award to another runner shortly after receiving. It didn't have a name just said 2nd in M30-39. It was just a square thick glass award, paper weight. I'm not into awards and trophies, I do love checks though!

Does one gain any fitness from racing a marathon? I assume the answer is yes but it takes a few weeks to see results. Then combined with the recovery period the overall result is no gain or even some loss of fitness.

Related question; can I expect to be able to race a 10 miler 3 weeks after my marathon this past weekend? I mean race it expecting a pre-marathon result? Or should I expect to be slower and choose a more conservative pace?

What do you consider a "pre marathon result"? Have you raced a 10 miler recently?

Gain fitness from a marathon? Results may vary greatly, but I would say no (if you went all-out/raced 26.2 miles). The body takes way too long to recover from such effort to gain any fitness. (This is compared to continuing to train for a marathon, but not race I believe you would do better at your race than if you raced 26.2 miles).

Now, maintain fitness is very possible and I think people could expect to see to use that fitness for post-marathon PRs at shorter races.

For me, usually I'm slow as hell for weeks after an all-out marathon effort.

What do you consider a "pre marathon result"? Have you raced a 10 miler recently?

Something equivalent to my recent 10k. Like a 1:02. Haven't raced a 10 miler since this race last year.

I've raced two marathons and hit PRs (13.1 and 5k) 5 weeks after both of them. I think 3 weeks might be a little tough, but you seem to do well with races close together and don't seem to need as much recovery time as I do. Like dcv says, I think these PRs are due to completing a marathon cycle, not because of fitness gained in the marathon itself.

Strugglr: what's the point? Why take the risk .. sounded like your muscles suffered in the marathon. I PR'd in a 5k three weeks after a marathon but I had no clue that was a bad idea. Got a borderline hamstring strain that lingered for months. Obviously a 10 miler isn't speed like 5k but the principal still holds ... why so soon given the potential risk. If you ended up the marathon as a long run with no issues then maybe. I would regroup, make sure your body is recovered is priority. But we all have our opinions I don't know much about running but I can share the mistakes I've made.

Slammin – Well, you got an age-award on Sunday, so I hope you get something. Because that's my goal next year.

Strugglr – For what it's worth, I bounced back fast from a marathon in Spring 2013 and ran a PR in a half marathon 4 weeks later. But I felt fresh immediately after the marathon and was able to resume my pre-marathon training pattern after only 1 or 2 days rest.

Frank – If you think my 2:56 goal is soft based on a 1:21 HM, then 2:50 is equally soft for a 1:18:14 HM. Predictors point to sub-2:45 for you. Considering the first 16 miles are net downhill, why not target 2:45 pace through 16.0 and see what happens? The hills may (or may not) slow you but certainly no more than a few minutes. You'd still arrive at the finish well under 2:50. And the best case scenario is you somehow negative split and prove the prediction calculators correct.

My Boston info: 1/4; bib #38xx (sorry, I need to keep somewhat of a lower profile due to my job).

It's already enough info to find out who you are. Go to the entry list for Boston, enter "Chicago" for the city and first name initial J, male, and there is just one runner whose bib starts with 38....(and whose intials are JP, btw)...

frank: I usually wet the sensor before putting on the HR strap, so I'm not sure why it's so spiky. I'm told by others that I'm terrible to run with because I'm always speeding up and slowing down, so maybe the HR is an accurate picture of that dynamic. There were some very minor undulations at the beginning of LV, and one hill at Providence, but nothing that explains the spikiness that well.

I just let my watch auto-lap. I pulled out the mile split averages from those 4 races into a chart:

I'm still not sure that this says anything useful to me, beyond that I clearly was not recovered from LV at the time I ran Chicago, as my HR there stayed high until I crashed (and I was running at the same pace as in LV, with much more favorable conditions in Chicago).

I'd like to get to the point where I could run a FM by HR, but I'd sure like the data to look less noisy before committing to that approach. The lines on your graph make much more sense than the ones on mine.

strugglr: I don't think the absolute HR numbers mean anything in isolation - from what I've read, max HR is fixed genetically, and there's a pretty wide spread in individual maxima. I've not done the "run up a big hill 3 times until you feel like you want to die" test to establish my max. Instead, I'm guesstimating it based on what I've seen in races. The max I've recorded is 192 from a HM a couple of years ago, so I assume my max is 192-195, or even a bit higher. Seems like my AHR for FMs ends up being around 172, which is 88% of a max of 195. From what I remember reading, it's only the elites who can get to that % of max over a FM, and most of us recreational runners are usually closer to 85%.

Patrick - "Considering the first 16 miles are net downhill, why not target 2:45 pace through 16.0" - That's crazy talk. For one, 60 mpw isn't enough to get me to 2:45. For another, mile 3 to 15 are net zero elevation drop with a lot of rollers and almost no flat running. The reason Boston is considered a tough course isn't because of a few big hills that aren't even that big, it's the constant undulations that get you. Now stop trying to get me in trouble.

dankelley - Yeah, it's hard to read much in those charts. It seems that your HM heart rate is a good indicator that you're going to have a good race in Boston though. I've got no theories on why yours are so spiky - I think it's something with the hrm more than you going through drastic effort changes. In Chicago and New Bedford it looks a lot smoother. Actually, looking at New Bedford again, it looks like you pounded those hills pretty hard at mile 2 and 3. You won't want to do that in Boston. The image attached is your HR and mine in that race. I probably hit those hills a little too hard also.

dankelley - Yeah, it's hard to read much in those charts. It seems that your HM heart rate is a good indicator that you're going to have a good race in Boston though. I've got no theories on why yours are so spiky - I think it's something with the hrm more than you going through drastic effort changes. In Chicago and New Bedford it looks a lot smoother. Actually, looking at New Bedford again, it looks like you pounded those hills pretty hard at mile 2 and 3. You won't want to do that in Boston. The image attached is your HR and mine in that race. I probably hit those hills a little too hard also.

Agreed on not hitting the hills too hard in Boston. The New Bedford HR was intentional though - I wanted the fitness test more than the result, so I was willing to suffer a bit if it turned out I wasn't fit enough to hit them that hard and survive the rest of the race. I actually feel really positive about how it turned out, as I had plenty left to hit that last hill reasonably hard. In any case, I'll be much more conservative in Boston for all of the obvious reasons.

I do also wonder if I should get a new HRM. I've got an older watch (310xt) and am using the HRM that came with the watch before that (305). Maybe I'll order a new one and see if I get anything different out of it.

dankelley - It seems that your HM heart rate is a good indicator that you're going to have a good race in Boston though.

Actually, following up on this again: I just plugged that HM time into macmillan, and it gives me 2:55:29 (6:42 pace) as an equivalent FM performance. I've been training for 6:45, and have largely been able to hit those workouts in 70+ mile weeks.

That said, I'm terrified of learning the hard (i.e, walking in Newton) way that my goal was too aggressive, hence the idea of running the first ~16 at 6:45 pace then re-assessing. Does this sound too soft?

Cinnamon: What's the point? Why take the risk? Because that's just how I roll. I'm a risk taker through and through. I ran my 5k PR the Wed after my fall marathon PR like a dummy. My legs were screaming. Plus this is the DC Cherry Blossom 10 miler. For some reason I really enjoyed it last year and I think 10 miles might be my favorite distance right now. Plus Patrick said he was going to be running and and I'm planning to draft him for as long as I can hold on.

Patrick: You're still planning on Cherry Blossom right? Goal time?

Dan: I think 6:45 is not soft at all and might be aggressive with your recent HM time and the tough Boston course. Is sub 3 your goal or 2:56-7? Going for 2:56-2:57 may cost you sub 3. If that's ok, go for it.

Sorry I didn't do enough shoutouts to what looked like was the most incredible week this year - with all those unbelievable PRs and improvements. It's just really amazing to see the results of all those races. Again - congrats too all of you, who worked hard to get there - and all of runners here defintely work hard. Not to mention some monster weeks and workouts - like fast pug's 21 mi @ 6:23 with 95 mi week - I just don't understand that, that is crazy. Or TerenceL's 21 @ 6:43. Those guys belong to different league. In any case, that what makes this thread so valuable - you can follow people's training and then see what it can lead to - really inspiring. Thanks to all of you.

Things didn't go very well for me for the last couple of weeks. I was actually laid off (very suddenly and unexpectedly) on Friday right before LA marathon on Sunday, so, my race had some negative taste for me despite the PR. I also canceled my Boston hotel reservation (because I cannot pay the costs of that particular hotel) and right now I am in some kind of searching mode - if I am able to find something really cheap in Boston area, I will go, if not, I have to skip it (though I already have plane tickets paid). I definitely looking for a job and it doesn't look bad, but the layoff happened really at a wrong time, so, I had no much reserves and now should be really careful with spending until I find new job. So, sorry for not participating in the life of the thread the way I used to, but, the priorities certainly changed and will probably be that way for some time.

Patrick - my recovery goes OK, I tried to run last Friday, but by the middle of the run I understood that week off just works best for me - so, I rested Sat and Sun. Ran easy on Mon and Tue, but will skip again tomorrow because something like a shin splint (and I definitely not an expert in injuries) started bothering me, actually started to bother me by the end of the race in LA, but I thought week off will take care of it. I am not sure it a shin splint, but some pain in the lower part of my leg's bone. I think it's called tibia - the lower part of it. I guess my time for an injury has come . Will see, will take as many days off as needed and maybe it will go away.

CBF – That's terrible news! I know the job situation is more important, but I really hope you're able to make the trip to Boston. An RWOL get-together wouldn't be right without you there. Best of luck to you in the coming days – hope you get good news soon about work.

Calsbear wow sorry to hear that news about your job. Running seems so much harder when life things get in the way. Im on one income and 4 kids so im constantly having to watch what I spend and new shoes and race entry fees are things I have to carefully consider. Hope you get something soon. Your a Rocket Scientist right ?

What a bummer about the job Cal and bad timing...I had a feeling something was up with you. Be careful with the foot pain and don't be tempted to continue training until it's sorted (especially just after racing a marathon). Boston is close and you won't lose much fitness (if any) with a bit of time off. Fwiw, I raced 2 marathons 4 weeks apart with barely any training in between and PR'd.

Cal sorry to hear about the job. Something always seems to creep up when things feel like they are going well . Keep your head up.

Dan I got that 13 in with 7 at what I thought would be a decent clip. Avg d 6:10 which just blew my mind. Ran the same workout last august avg d 6:30 and thought that was great back then. It's fun to watch the improvement over time. Running has been such a savior for me. Now I just wished I would have started earlier.

Cal, sorry to hear about your layoff. The same thing happened to me last year. If you need resume and interviewing resources let me know I used Right Management they provided good resources. good luck in the job hunt. My entire division got laid off last month as well I felt at the time I was singled out for running during lunch they let go my director and his boss as well so its just business never personal so just try to move forward. Room or bunk with someone. There were some great B&B and apartments put forward search the sub 3 thread to find them.

Dan I got that 13 in with 7 at what I thought would be a decent clip. Avg d 6:10 which just blew my mind. Ran the same workout last august avg d 6:30 and thought that was great back then. It's fun to watch the improvement over time. Running has been such a savior for me. Now I just wished I would have started earlier.

Cal sorry to hear about the job. I think many of us feel like we are just holding it together between job, family and training, yet we're like a three legged stool, lose one and the balance is gone. None of my business but I think you should run Boston, the airfare and entrance fee is already paid. When do you fly in/out? I bet someone on this board can come up with something...

Workouts don't make you faster or stronger. Recovering from workouts makes you faster and stronger.