Anecdotes of bad apples in the system don't prove it's like NK. Maybe your expectations for prisons is unrealistic to begin with. The Stanford prison experiment shows there are inherent problems whenever you have guards and inmates. Stop comparing things to utopia and start comparing things to what they can realistically be. A prison with 0 abuses is not one. (And actually propose solutions rather than just use this as an excuse to promote an ultra-isolationist foreign policy where madmen running nations are allowed nukes.)

Guantanamo has moral problems, but it's not a political prison. It's a prison for unlawful enemy combatants against the US. Every war has prisoners of war. At it peak it had 779 prisoners and only 8 died. NK political prisons have 200000 prisoners, relatives included who literally have done nothing wrong and a 40% mortality from malnutrition.

It's almost like you're trolling, Tree. Like you keep making these statements which are meant to be critical of Trump, but pretending you're talking about a funny foreigner.

As a quick note - your contention that people are comparing to a Utopia is like all your other contentions about what people are supposedly doing - a figment of your imagination, and a rather convenient way of redefining the argument to something that may be easier for you to address.

Tree wrote: Guantanamo has moral problems, but it's not a political prison. It's a prison for unlawful enemy combatants against the US. Every war has prisoners of war. At it peak it had 779 prisoners and only 8 died. NK political prisons have 200000 prisoners, relatives included who literally have done nothing wrong and a 40% mortality from malnutrition.

Most from Gitmo have been released.

And here's the vapidity again.

When we do something that appears immoral, there's endless apologetic justification for it.... but how dare those funny foreigners engage in immoral acts?!

It would be funny if you weren't a symptom of the danger we're in as a species.

This is not about how North Korea are smeggy smelly-pants.This is not about how the USA are ner ner nasties.

If you really want to talk about this, Tree - perhaps you could start a thread on it rather than making all other threads about it?

The thread is about a logical contradiction between 2 claims, and the truth of this is actually potentially very important.

Either there IS physical evidence of torture (e.g. dental reconfiguration with metal implements) or there IS NOT physical evidence of torture.

As such, it doesn't matter if this is 'just the kind of thing those funny foreigners do' as if that provides a surrogate for physical evidence.

What matters is that we don't actually know for sure.

When you've got two monomaniacal loons with nuclear weapons posturing at each other and raising flags that could present a casus belli, you want to make absolutely fucking sure that you are not being terribly misinformed with a potential result unimaginably worse for more people than the lies and posturing which lead us to war in Iraq.

What a surprise that once again you base your entire argument on lies and exaggerations. Are you sure you're not the troll here?

Make no mistake, this is not in any sense constructive criticism of American policy, this is just regressive leftist shit slinging. I've seen your kind before, I know how you operate. All your efforts serve no other purposes than to: 1. convince young Americans to hate their own country and distort their perception of reality to such an extent they will support foreign policies that go against national interests 2. aid enemies of the US

As such, it doesn't matter if this is 'just the kind of thing those funny foreigners do' as if that provides a surrogate for physical evidence.

Regressive leftist rule #2: Imply racist motive without proof. It's a good thing you didn't use rule #1 which is just openly assert it. You're a very clever liar aren't you?

Besides the other more sinister implication that the "funny foreigners" of North Korea are actually in full control of their destiny. So good job implying that Kim Jong Un is a legitimate leader, he would be proud of this.

Again, I have you remind your kind of racists of low expectations: South Korea. Same ethnic group of North Korea. Koreans. Somehow these "funny foreigners" can manage just fine to run a successful society without political prison camps.

The thread is about a logical contradiction between 2 claims, and the truth of this is actually potentially very important.

People can be mistaken, just because North Korea didn't damage his teeth doesn't mean they're off the hook.

Tree wrote:What a surprise that once again you base your entire argument on lies and exaggerations. Are you sure you're not the troll here?

Thanks for exemplifying that you don't really read to process, just to emote.

I didn't actually say you were a troll, I meant it in an ironic way - but nevermind, carry on slapping your cock around on the internet because everyone knows that makes you look extra special.

Tree wrote:Make no mistake, this is not in any sense constructive criticism of American policy, this is just regressive leftist shit slinging.

Vacuous emoting once again.

You have repeatedly shown yourself unable to process any argument that isn't yours.

You are doing exactly as I mentioned earlier where any criticism of Israel is immediately attacked as anti-semitism, i.e politically motivated.

Of course, no one else here is under this erroneous impression - only you.

In reality, if you were obliged to show where I had attacked the USA or American policy, you'd be shown to be standing around with your hands down your pants, tugging ineffectually.

But in Tree Land, reality takes a distant second place to whatever emotional context you need to employ to get a handle on the written word.

Tree wrote: I've seen your kind before,...

No, you really haven't.

Tree wrote: I know how you operate.

No, you don't. In reality, you're running on pure prejudice where you see me as part of the out-group and consequently, due to the infantile nature of your reasoning capacity, you feel the need to ascribe to me all the prejudice pigeon-hole pap you routinely toss out at people so that you can avoid thinking about anything inconvenient to you.

You've shown it across a number of threads. You are the chap who's all vacuous political agenda, which is why you see political agenda wherever you look.

That's why you've tried to accuse me of all manner of frankly idiotic things which are not supported by anything I've actually written - only the things you imagine me saying in your self-serving inner dialogue.

All emotion, no reason Tree - why is it that you've joined a forum dedicated to reason if you refuse to engage in it?

Tree wrote:All your efforts serve no other purposes than to: 1. convince young Americans to hate their own country and distort their perception of reality to such an extent they will support foreign policies that go against national interests 2. aid enemies of the US

Utter crackpottery.

Delusional at that. You should keep such fucktardery to yourself, Tree - it just makes you look like a drooling moron.

Tree wrote:

As such, it doesn't matter if this is 'just the kind of thing those funny foreigners do' as if that provides a surrogate for physical evidence.

Regressive leftist rule #2: Imply racist motive without proof. It's a good thing you didn't use rule #1 which is just openly assert it. You're a very clever liar aren't you?

Note for everyone else - anyone detect Tree rebutting my point, or do we just see the typical Snowflake Brigade out looking for snowflakes as usual?

Tree wrote:Besides the other more sinister implication that the "funny foreigners" of North Korea are actually in full control of their destiny. So good job implying that Kim Jong Un is a legitimate leader, he would be proud of this.

Again, you misunderstand reality. In reality, Kim Jong Un IS the leader of North Korea - fact. I don't pick and choose facts based on what I'd prefer the world to be. You and your generation are bemired in intellectual quicksand where you can't process a reality that doesn't conform to your ideological preferences. Fake news all the way down.

The Tree Methodology: never let reality get in the way of a good yarn.

Tree wrote:

The thread is about a logical contradiction between 2 claims, and the truth of this is actually potentially very important.

People can be mistaken, just because North Korea didn't damage his teeth doesn't mean they're off the hook.

Because Tree's the single solitary arbiter of everything, even when he's abjectly fucking ignorant of the facts, even when empirical evidence contradicts his position.

Yes, you're exactly the clear and present danger to modern Western society I was talking about. The Information Age gone horribly wrong.

People like you will be banging the drums of war because all one needs to do with people like you is pull on your prejudice strings and it sets you off marching - no brain needed. This time though, it's not an invasion of Iraq that's planned, but a contest of chicken with a fucking nuclear power.

Fuck the facts, eh? What does it matter if Warmbier wasn't tortured at all? Let's just pretend he was because that's the reality we prefer, and let's start banging the drums of war because that's just going to inevitably produce a great outcome for all concerned.

Tree wrote:This does not redeem the regime one bit. What then is your point?

Try reading while employing reason instead of emoting vacuous prejudice at me. No one's talking about redeeming the North Korean regime but you. You'll find that I've stated my point several times already, but your continuous knee-jerk responses must have caused you to skip over them.

We kill 200,000 civilians with nuclear weapons > but it's just, it saved lives, it was necessary.

Foreigners could potentially use nuclear weapons > they're heinous, we must stop them, they can't be trusted not to use them.

Note I used the word 'tribalism' because it's more appropriate, but it's the same bent kettle of demented fish as racism.

Of course, in today's day and age, the crackpot right respond to having their tribalistic delusions contested by hand-wringing over the word 'racism' and then illogically trying to apply it to their accusers.

Par for the course.

Thanks Tree for bringing a little slice of Youtube comments section standards of discourse here. It at least serves to remind us that most of the discourse here is of a vastly superior standard.

IBSpify wrote:Do i Need to bring up the stories of what happens in Guantanamo and the fact that most of the people there past and present have never received a trial at all fair or otherwise?

According to the pattern so far, it wouldn't matter if you did.

The answer would be:

But it's fine, it's just, it's necessary - our motives are pure

But outrage, outrage, outrage that you dare to compare this specific aspect to those funny foreigners and their funny foreigner way of doing things!

At a superficial level, it may look factually the same, but what you stupid regressive communist fascist leftie Muslims don't get is that the motives are different: when we act in heinous ways, our motives are pure, but when those funny foreigners act in heinous ways, it shows you all you need to know about how evil they are.

What's sauce for the goose is absolutely not remotely sauce for the gander, and you should be ashamed and reviled for noting it.

Alright, I'm a very busy man, so I'm just going to point how dishonest you are before I leave you to your bullshit.

1. You reply to my post saying Kim Jong Un is not a legitimate leader with "Kim Jong Un is the leader".

Yeah, no shit Sherlock. Not the same thing. Is he the leader? Sure. Is he the legitimate leader? No. Governments have to be chosen by the consent of the people to have legitimacy which means free and fair elections and a certain respect for basic rights. The Kims are some of the least legitimate leaders of our time by that standard.

Foreigners could potentially use nuclear weapons > they're heinous, we must stop them, they can't be trusted not to use them.

Them being foreign is not the issue and they're not really the ones who will be in charge. North Koreans have no control over their government and their government doesn't have the basic checks and balances to be trusted with nukes.

Fuck off if you can't engage my position and are just going to smear me as a racist.

Tree wrote: so I'm just going to point how dishonest you are before I leave you to your bullshit.

Great. The post will be short then. By this point, if I were to be obliged to do the same with you, I'd hit the character limit on a post.

Tree wrote:1. You reply to my post saying Kim Jong Un is not a legitimate leader with "Kim Jong Un is the leader".

And this is 'dishonest'?

Perhaps you want to look up the meaning of dishonesty before tossing out an accusation that turns out to be a non-sequitur.

While we're on the bullshit theme, look how you've revised your previous post!

Tree wrote:So good job implying that Kim Jong Un is a legitimate leader, he would be proud of this.

So originally, you accused me of 'implying that King Jong Un (sic) is a legitimate leader" whereas, of course, I'd done nothing remotely like that.

I did, however, respond to that point by noting that he is factually the leader of North Korea. For that, I clearly deserve to tarred and feather, the sorry little liar that I am!

Tree wrote:Yeah, no shit Sherlock. Not the same thing. Is he the leader? Sure. Is he the legitimate leader? No. Governments have to be chosen by the consent of the people to have legitimacy which means free and fair elections and a certain respect for basic rights. The Kims are some of the least legitimate leaders of our time by that standard.

It might surprise you to know this, but a large swathe of the world is not democratic. Now, evangelizing about democracy may be nice for you, but you can't really use it as an undisclosed premise that everyone's obliged to accept.

It will no doubt terrorize you to discover that many people on this forum can sit and discuss the negative components of democracy without once calling each other communist stooges.

Foreigners could potentially use nuclear weapons > they're heinous, we must stop them, they can't be trusted not to use them.

Them being foreign is not the issue and they're not really the ones who will be in charge.

Them being foreign is EXACTLY the issue because it's the same justification humans have been using since we were hitting each other with sticks - those foreigners cannot be trusted, their motives are terrible, they are bad people. We, of course may do the same thing, but when we do it, it's just.

You might not like my capitulation of it - but you have argued exactly this in 2 separate threads. My capitulation is a type of reductio ad absurdum, and its specific intent is to show someone making a pathetic argument just how poor it actually is.

Tree wrote: North Koreans have no control over their government and their government doesn't have the basic checks and balances to be trusted with nukes.

I don't believe that any government really has checks and balances to be trusted with nukes. You would know this by now if you stopped blathering incessantly and started trying to understand what I was saying. If you stopped assuming you know everything there is to know about me and my nefarious agenda, you might even spot where I explicitly write what my point is in language simple enough that even a cretin could comprehend it.

My issue is with nukes. Do you grasp this point?

Now, you may have undue faith in your nation's process, but I consider your belief there to be unwarranted.

For example, the 2017 Shayrat missile strike is a constitutional mess. Many constitutional scholars have suggested it could be a breach of the War Powers Resolution. Of course, if it were to be deemed a breach, it would happen post-fact, after the missiles have already flown, the victims dead...

Then of course there's the barrage of provocation. When 2 loons are blustering at each other and one side raises the stakes, it would be easy in such a precipitous conflict to consider it an act of war. If the US claims that North Korea has effectively declared war on the USA, then the War Powers Resolution is no longer relevant.

Finally, are you going to argue that Trump couldn't ask Congress to vote for a military attack on North Korea that could pass and then spiral out of control?

Your faith is like your crystal ball - based on a series of assumptions that are not justified.

To me, nuclear conflict is the greatest possible evil as it not only kills indiscriminately and for many generations, but also renders the land and atmosphere unlivable. Toss enough nukes, and we don't know what the possible outcome is. As such, I want there not to be a nuclear war, even if we have to put up with a tinpot dictator beating his chest repeatedly.

Tree wrote:Fuck off if you can't engage my position and are just going to smear me as a racist.

So infantile. You spout tribalistic crap which I identify and explain, and then YOU use the word 'racist' yourself, then accuse me of being racist, then whinge about me supposedly having called you a racist.

It's right there in written record. You can even search my posts and see that the only time I've used the word 'racist' in response to you is when I've replied to your claim that I called you racist. It's like Alice in fucking Wonderland here.

On top of that, you are accusing me of aiding and abetting the enemy, whoever that's supposed to be.

You clearly need to get the fuck over yourself.

[quote="Tree"Also what a dead administration did 70+ years ago - not relevant.[/quote]

Says you. Meanwhile, I am under no obligation to genuflect to the gospel according to Tree. You can convince me with good argumentation, but trying to assert your way round the strictures of discourse is not going to net you the result you desire.

Go to page two, search again, discover that it's Tree who used the word racist first claiming I had called him racist (which is manifestly untrue), and the next instance of the word is Tree calling me a racist.

Nevermind - the main objective has been completed: derail the thread to resolve any genuine conundrum from permeating the ideological Morton's Demon.

What do you expect when you imply that I don't want foreigners to have nukes simply because they're foreign?

Which as I explained isn't even true because North Koreans don't actually control their destiny, it's more like they are held hostages and borderline slaves by a family of psychopaths. And nobody hates Kim Jong Un because he's foreign, they hate him cause he's literally the Hitler of our time. It's not even a Godwin's law, you can't think of any other person that has done as much damage internationally in our lifetime. (His father maybe? Oh another crazy Kim.)

Tree wrote:What do you expect when you imply that I don't want foreigners to have nukes simply because they're foreign?

Well, you could try reading the posts I wrote rather than emoting back at me.

And it's not one incident, but rather, a repeated form of argument on your side. From what I can tell, you are blithely unaware of it so you will likely continue to do it, and continue to angrily shove those who don't conform into the out-group, such as actually saying publicly that I am a North Korean stooge aiding and abetting the 'enemy' just because I disagree with you.

For example, you keep talking about how deranged and dangerous this Kim Jong-un chap is, and how we all need to consider him a threat because he COULD drop a nuclear bomb. But you work overtime to explain away, justify, and excuse the fact that the USA actually did factually drop nuclear bombs, and they did so onto civilian targets.

This is the way tribalism works - let's recall that I used the word 'tribalism' whereas you used the word racism and got shitty with me about a word I hadn't used.

It's a form of a motivated thinking operating on in-group/out-group biases which I've already explained in this thread. Feel free to read my posts sometime when you want to find out what I am trying to say.

Again, because you are wont to misunderstand and therefore misrepresent... one isn't connected to the other. North Korea's possession of nuclear weaponry is terrifying - particularly for those of us who live in this region. But it's not that much more terrifying than any other country having nukes, especially when we see those countries moving towards pre-emptive non-aggression attacks, even though such behaviors have so recently shown to be horrifying.

For me, as I've made clear a dozen times, it's the nukes themselves that are the problem due to the extreme consequences of a nuclear war. I don't want North Korea to have them, I don't want Israel, Pakistan, France, Russia, the UK, or the USA to have them.

But while even one still exists, as I've explained to you half a dozen times, it creates an imperative for other nations who are seeking to ensure their sovereignty from the belligerence of the nuclear-possessing nations. And in that group, the USA resides very firmly given the last couple of decades.

Tree wrote:Which as I explained isn't even true because North Koreans don't actually control their destiny, it's more like they are held hostages and borderline slaves by a family of psychopaths. And nobody hates Kim Jong Un because he's foreign, they hate him cause he's literally the Hitler of our time. It's not even a Godwin's law, you can't think of any other person that has done as much damage internationally in our lifetime. (His father maybe? Oh another crazy Kim.)

You're spouting Fox News style idiocy. Sorry, I simply do not buy into your vacuous make-believe propaganda. Go try it on someone either more naive than me, or just as belligerent as yourself.

Motivated reasoning is an emotion-biased decision-making phenomenon studied in cognitive science and social psychology. This term describes the role of motivation in cognitive processes such as decision-making and attitude change in a number of paradigms, including:

Cognitive dissonance reduction[1] Beliefs about others on whom one's own outcomes depend[1] Evaluation of evidence related to one's own outcomes[1]

...

The processes of motivated reasoning are a type of inferred justification strategy which is used to mitigate cognitive dissonance. When people form and cling to false beliefs despite overwhelming evidence, the phenomenon is labeled "motivated reasoning". In other words, "rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe".[2] This is "a form of implicit emotion regulation in which the brain converges on judgments that minimize negative and maximize positive affect states associated with threat to or attainment of motives"

That's very funny, accusing me of propaganda while pushing propaganda that only benefits Kim Jong Un. My charges against the NK regime are accurate. It is by definition pro-NK propaganda to characterize my statements as propaganda.

Please do identify which statement in that post was inaccurate about the North Korea.

1. fact: North Koreans aren't in charge of their government, there are no elections in NK that are free or fair, the government functions very similar to an absolute monarchy2. fact: Kim Jong Un isnt hated because he's foreign but because of how he governs NK3. fact: his pursuits threaten to start WW3 making him very similar to a Hitler-like figure4. fact: he's a totalitarian, just like Hitler, very murderous, very brutal with dissenters5. fact: North Koreans don't have a choice over their job or career and some are even sent abroad to work without pay (the pay is collected by NK, making NK one of the largest slave holders)6. fact: NKs are held hostage as they can't leave the country or even their assigned place of residence, there is no freedom of movement even within NK

That's very funny, accusing me of propaganda while pushing propaganda that only benefits Kim Jong Un.

Keep repeating the delusional crackpottery. It's just possible someone here missed this comment and now they get to see what a ridiculous chap you are.

Tree wrote:My charges against the NK regime are accurate.

Your charges are irrelevant to this topic, and are motivated purely by emotion. You couldn't stay on topic on this thread. All you want to do is spread propaganda, regardless of its relevance to the topic.

Tree wrote: It is by definition pro-NK propaganda to characterize my statements as propaganda.

You clown.

By definition? Go on then chap - show us the dictionary where it says this.

Tree wrote:Please do identify which statement in that post was inaccurate about the North Korea.

Yet more red herrings from Tree.

First quote where I said you made an inaccurate statements about North Korea, and then I will defend that contention.

You don't, however, get to now add new information to the thread and ask me to defend against it. This is like the 4th of 5th time you've tried this diversion now, and it's mental.

Tree wrote:1. fact: North Koreans aren't in charge of their government, there are no elections in NK that are free or fair, the government functions very similar to an absolute monarchy2. fact: Kim Jong Un isnt hated because he's foreign but because of how he governs NK3. fact: his pursuits threaten to start WW3 making him very similar to a Hitler-like figure4. fact: he's a totalitarian, just like Hitler, very murderous, very brutal with dissenters5. fact: North Koreans don't have a choice over their job or career and some are even sent abroad to work without pay (the pay is collected by NK, making NK one of the largest slave holders)6. fact: NKs are held hostage as they can't leave the country or even their assigned place of residence, there is no freedom of movement even within NK

Fact: all of this is irrelevant to this threadFact: all but one of these were not mentioned in this thread prior to thisFact: you wriggle around tossing out diversions all the time because your arguments are shit

Finally, the second one's passive tense is comedy and exposes how you confuse your emotion for logic, and the third one should reflect on Trump's 'fire and fury' comment, which of course, you will hold to a different standard because you are not motivated by reason.

As I said and you've exemplified for me in a post trying to rebut that contention: you are regurgitating propaganda from a demented source - probably Fox News - your claims are inconsistent and biased, and you employ emotion in place of reason.