>>Ok. Sounds like my doctor is just a bit more conservative as he wants>me to be totally pain free before climbing. I can do plenty of push ups>and pull ups without pain, but stretching in a few directions hurts a bit>still. >

Wow. Push ups and pull ups are far harder on your shoulder than easy climbing. Or indeed, moderately hard climbing! I wonder if my doctor has more of an idea about climbing and hence is not concerned about my gradual return to climbing? I haven't even tried a full push up yet. I'm still doing push ups on knees and not even though about pull ups. i reckon you should go do some easy climbing. It's sanity saving. And you really aren't going to be stressing your shoulder at all on easy stuff. Piddo has a few 8s that are quite pleasant. At least it gets you out! I had a sub 10 rule for the first 3 weeks, then increased 1-2 grades a week until I got sick in early December, climbing about 3 times a week. It's been completely fine the whole time.

On 27/01/2013 Dr Nick wrote:>Maybe the question's not aimed at me, but basically because so much of>the fun climbing in Sydney is badly or not protected on natural gear, and>it seems silly to have 5 rings and 1 oddball piece of natural gear. Sport>climbing makes sense in these conditions.

why?>>But I did climb trad last year, and expect to do so this year. There are>plenty of good trad routes out there, but there are even more good sport>routes.

On 27/01/2013 ratherbeclimbinv9 wrote:>Not sure that's really fair Tor. I think (predominately) trad climbers>generally give out far fewer stars than sport climbers. Pretty much the>whole ACT Granite was written with the approach that if you wouldn't walk>over hot coals while being subjected to a whipping to get to it, it doesn't>deserve a star. 3 stars means you'd give up your shot at heaven (or whatever>reward your particular religion offers) for it.

u should see onsights guide. lots of stars in there.>>IMO people will most often give stars to a route when it's at their limit>- maybe that's why sport climbers give out more, because you can be closer>to your limit. Which is a big part of why many lower graded routes are>great but have no stars. You tend to forget something that's easy.

peeps also give stars when they have little experience of a range of other climbs to compare with.>>BTW, there are closer trad cliffs and tors than Booroomba for north-siders.> (and how's the shoulder??)

On 29/01/2013 Snacks wrote:>I dabble with trad when the opportunity arises, but I'd say generally the>setup with trad is a lot more constraining...>>In short...>>Time, money, risks, planning, training and effort are all generally higher>per individual climb.

once u buy the gear u have it for life (if u want), so it no longer applies to individual climb but a lifetime worth.

On 29/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:>I was making the point that the iconic trad routes - the big lines, are>still unbolted. I don't think anyone would have called the Upper Shipley>wall a 'trad' crag. It was a mixed place at best, heaps of bolts. Piddo>and Cosmic still have heaps of cracker cracks for the trad climber. Point>Perp is another spot with heaps of big trad lines. No one has drilled bolts>next to established cracks that I can think of apart from at Nowra (which>I was a little sad about).

so ur sayin that trad climbers should be restricted to cracker cracks or just piddo / cosmic / pt perp and it ok to retro everything else?

On 29/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>One of the most interesting points that seems to be ignored is that the>>majority of this retrobolting is actually done by climbers in their 40s>>or older - usually with decades of climbing experiance including trad.>>The retrobolting is rarely done by young inexperienced climbers. Thoughts?

that might be tru where ur comin from but the only peeps i know who bolt are all under 40

On 29/01/2013 Big G wrote:>On 28/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>>>$100 would buy a decent amount of second hand nuts and hexes. Enough>to>>get up your first year of trad climbing! :-)>>still need the biners too!>>thats what i've got - some new some, second hand nuts - a couple of small>hexes>>there is no denying a basic sport rack is cheaper than a basic trad rack

if the cheaper agument holds up then why arnt there more boulderers or soloists than sport climbers?

On 29/01/2013 White Trash wrote:>On 29/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:>>>One of the most interesting points that seems to be ignored is that>the>>>majority of this retrobolting is actually done by climbers in their>40s>>>or older - usually with decades of climbing experiance including trad.>>>The retrobolting is rarely done by young inexperienced climbers. Thoughts?>>that might be tru where ur comin from but the only peeps i know who bolt>are all under 40

Bolt or retrobolt? I was talking about retrobolting. That seems to be mostly done by guys in their 40+. At least the more recent examples mentioned on Chockstone certainly are.

And my list of good trad crags was in relation to previous posts saying that most of the good trad climbing in NSW had been retroed. I was calling bullshit on that in a big way! Retrobolting of established trad routes is by far the exception not the rule. And it's often it is done or sanctioned by the first ascentist.

Unfortuntely thecrag.com shows only about a third of the trad routes as this field is usually not ticked by people filling in the database. Most of the climbs at the Zawn aren't on there either cos climbing is banned :P
I was just making the point there is more than enough to learn on around the place. Quality is not always high.

I certainly did not mean to imply that the good trad climbing had been retroed . . .
My comment in relation to shipley and some other places was that carrots and gear got replaced by rings. Previously I suppose it allowed general climbers to get experience with gear where as now they are all rings and it is like a gym, I actually enjoy going there occasionally and climbing the Jacks High face on gear just to upset the attendants . . .

The other thing I suppose is that most of the new routers are primarily doing sport bolting even if there is the possible of tad lines or gear, but oh well I guess thats what they do . .

I think with the amount of groovy modern gear that we have these days and the average climbing level etc there is scope for some really good trad to still be done in the bluies . .

I personally like to climb trad, sport and boulder problems, because I appreciate the individual qualities each of these genres has to offer. On the gym front, I regularly climb outdoors with noobs who've never really been on real rock and it's rather frustrating when they laugh and hang sh# t on me for feeling nervous on a grade 17-18 trad route because they've seen me top-rope grade 24's in the gym!! But when I say "Laugh away buddy, cos you're leading the next pitch" it's hilarious seeing them get all defensive and say "f#@k that sh#t!! I've never even placed a cam before!!!" Although at the same time, I'll take the same ppl to Nowra and they're immediately leading and taking falls off ring bolted grade 20's! Sport climbing is a much, much easier way to venture into the outdoors and is a natural progression from the gym whilst being cheap, generally straight forward and safer for the novice. I'm sure these ppl will lead trad one day down the track, but for now I can definitely see the attraction of sport routes for them.

"I was quickly taken aback, however, by the UIAA's opening statement which included, ”Despite earlier attempts by the UIAA to offer guidance on fixed equipment and the conservation of natural rock, bolts continue to be placed in areas where many climbers wish they were not."

I have of recent moved away from trad to sport or top roping. As I've got ancient (over 40) I have found that trad has issues for me. Injuries from sports (other than climbing) affect my ability to sustain a full day of trad climbing. Also as I take my kids climbing I play it safe and often trad lead a route to set up as a top rope or leave the pro and use as a feux sport climb.
I also find I don't have the need to run around a crag hitting different routes. I'm not out to impress or prove anything, just a fun day out. So I often set a route as above and then climb it a heap of times with variation.
With kids sport is great. Cheap, in case they decide its not for them. That happens daily with other things. Builds confidence. I worry less. More climbing time.
Is it "real" climbing if its not trad? Who cares. It's like saying chips with vinegar or tomato sauce. I was never an above average climber and now I find average is something in the past. I am secure enough not to listen to those who bait others about their "type" of climbing, nor due I find the need to do it.
As for the ethics of bolts, etc. if you want to trad a bolted route - ignore the bolts, don't use them. Get of the high horse, it's not the crime of the century.
Having said all that, don't get me wrong, trad is better. If you have time, money, training, ability. If not climb anyway.

The UIAA then veered down a shadowy alley that confused the ethics and history of mountaineering and alpinism, as if those standards are applicable to today’s sport climber. A litany of miss-statements and inaccuracies painted a dim picture:

besides the thread is about "Sport climbers - why don't you climb trad?"

On 28/01/2013 leeman wrote:>As a young(er) climber, I just find it difficult to find an experienced>partner to learn from, to place gear, and be confident in those placements.>Especially in Sydney. I;m harassing my friends to go out all the time,>but even then I'm the most 'experienced' person there, and I'm not prepared>to just wing it learning trad.

Im a youger climber as well at 25. I climb probably 80% Trad. There are people who want to teach out there and pass it on. I have climbed with a few guys from the rockies on club trips and many of them more then happy to pass on there knowledge.
I think our age group is predomently sport climbers though.

On 4/02/2013 Batey wrote:>Im a youger climber as well at 25. I climb probably 80% Trad. There are>people who want to teach out there and pass it on. I have climbed with>a few guys from the rockies on club trips and many of them more then happy>to pass on there knowledge.>I think our age group is predomently sport climbers though.
When I was a young climber I thought the 25-year-olds were old climbers.