Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Radical Idea.

BillySims wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

You forgot option 4: "This is batsh** insane."

Insane? That's a bit harsh don't you think? Where is your idea for getting the cap under control while not weakening the teams talent base? In order to do it, you have to get rid of the contracts that have put us in the situation.

With this scenario, I accomplish that, while at the same time getting the draft picks to maintain the talent level on the team. And save a whole lot of Cash in the process.

Billy, I was told the same thing back at the beginning of 2010 when I suggested (based on what someone else had mentioned on the radio) the mere idea of trading Calvin Johnson. We were coming off an 2-14 season, Backus was playing poorly, and Stafford was back on IR after getting crushed by Peppers. I had the idea that we could trade CJ and Backus to San Diego for Marcus McNeill and some picks, and people on this forum lost their collective minds. It was merely a suggestion that we could get an upgrade at LT to protect Stafford and some future picks to get him some targets to throw to. Looking back, I'm glad we didn't do something like that. But I was making that suggestion after an 2-14 season, and during a particularly bad early run in the 2010 season. And I only suggested that one player.

You are now asking about trading our absolute best players after a season that saw us get into the playoffs for the first time in over a decade, with the most promise this team has had in a LONG time. Some of the moves suggested have some intrigue, such as tagging and trading Avril if the team can't come to terms with him on a multi-year deal. But the mere idea of trading Stafford is going to get you called names. Adding the idea of trading CJ may get rocks thrown at you in the streets.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

February 20th, 2012, 12:59 pm

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3422Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: Radical Idea.

m2karateman wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

thelomasbrowns wrote:

You forgot option 4: "This is batsh** insane."

I agree... Billy, did you also see the flux capacitor when you fell off the toilet and bumped your head and came up with this thread?

Trading Stafford and CJ is ridiculous. Suh, I wouldn't mind, but that's only because I think we can have a great DL without him, and I think he's going to cost a ton down the road.

The bigger issue isn't our first round draft picks that are killing us. That's like saying "we're going to be doomed because we have to much talent." That isn't the case. There are plenty of teams with three superstars on it, in fact, I think that's about the average of all of the really good teams. The bigger issue is over-paid players that underperform.

The bottom line is Nate, Backus, Raiola, Best, KVB, Gosider Cherilus, and Corey Williams are all over-paid. That's what's hurting this team. If you get rid of their salaries this team is in great shape, cap wise.

Trading Stafford, who has now fulfilled his potential, is completely insane. I agree with wjb that the contracts of Stafford, CJ and Suh aren't the ones killing the team, it's the non or under performers that are hurting us. However, I think the idea of trading Suh now because of what his contract will do in the future is foolish. Our D-line is NOT great without Suh. He changes the entire complexion of the way an offense approaches their gameplan. It wasn't him that hurt us this past season, at all. Teams just accounted for him more, and the other players around him failed to pick up the slack. Cherilus, Corey Williams, Peterman and Burleson are the ones who are truly overpaid on this team, and it is their contracts that need to be redone, or trade them. Certainly we wouldn't get the same return in trade. But THAT is proof that they aren't worth the paper their contracts are written on.

KVB is not someone I would agree that should be gotten rid of, since it is HIS attitude and work ethic that started the ball rolling for this defense and this team in general. He is still an insanely hard worker, still provides leadership on and off the field, and is still productive enough (8 sacks) to justify his staying on the team. The contract with Best is probably not that inhibitive, salary wise. Bonus money is an issue. If he decides to retire due to injury, do we recoup that prorated bonus money? I don't think we can....so whether he's on the team or not, his deal isn't hurting us. Backus doesn't have a deal right now, so how can his contract be hurting us? Dom's deal is definitely over-paying him, but not to such a degree that it is hurting this team that much. He's still a better, more consistent player than Peterman or Cherilus, and I'd prefer to see them canned or traded before Raiola. If we can find a cheaper replacement for Raiola without a drop-off in play, then I'd be all for it.

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Radical Idea.

I think the one player the Lions have that is at risk of being traded is Avril. They won't (I hope) just let him walk. If they can't get him signed, they'll tag and trade. Tennessee is the likely trade partner.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

I think the one player the Lions have that is at risk of being traded is Avril. They won't (I hope) just let him walk. If they can't get him signed, they'll tag and trade. Tennessee is the likely trade partner.

In my scenario, I considered tagging and trading Avril to the Eagles even up for Asante Samuel. But, just decided to go for picks instead.

February 21st, 2012, 7:37 pm

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3422Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: Radical Idea.

m2karateman wrote:

I think the one player the Lions have that is at risk of being traded is Avril. They won't (I hope) just let him walk. If they can't get him signed, they'll tag and trade. Tennessee is the likely trade partner.

Definetely not doubting you by any means, but what evidence shows Tennesse as being a potential trade partner? Have they already showed interest?

That would be great in my opinion. I think having 2 first round picks in this years draft could go a long way in helping this team.

Insane? That's a bit harsh don't you think? Where is your idea for getting the cap under control while not weakening the teams talent base? In order to do it, you have to get rid of the contracts that have put us in the situation.

With this scenario, I accomplish that, while at the same time getting the draft picks to maintain the talent level on the team. And save a whole lot of Cash in the process.

I think "insane" is a bit of a sugar coat

The talent level is in NO WAY maintained. Calvin is bonafide #1 in the league, Suh is arguably top 3, and Stafford is arguably top 5 (#2 for QB's under 30)

Believe it or not, this isn't the craziest idea Billy has ever come up with. A long time ago at a Lions board far, far away, he created what could be the most insane plot ever conceived. Chad Henne and Mike Hart had just had outstanding Freshman seasons at Michigan in 2004 and he was convinced that they would be the top 2 players selected in the 2008 draft. Mel Kiper may not be able to predict where players will be drafted 3 years in advance, but Billy sure could.

Anyway, to ensure that the Lions had enough draft picks to trade up for the top two picks in the 2008 draft, he wanted to start trading away picks in 2005. His nefarious scheme involved trading the 2005 4th for a 2006 3rd, which would then be traded for a 2007 2nd, which would then be traded for a 2008 1st. Similar trades would also be made with the later round picks.

By the time the 2008 draft rolled around, the Lions would have something like 50 draft picks which would be traded in two Ricky Williams type deals to acquire Henne and Hart, thus guaranteeing multiple Lion Super Bowl titles for the foreseeable future.

Believe it or not, this isn't the craziest idea Billy has ever come up with. A long time ago at a Lions board far, far away, he created what could be the most insane plot ever conceived. Chad Henne and Mike Hart had just had outstanding Freshman seasons at Michigan in 2004 and he was convinced that they would be the top 2 players selected in the 2008 draft. Mel Kiper may not be able to predict where players will be drafted 3 years in advance, but Billy sure could.

Anyway, to ensure that the Lions had enough draft picks to trade up for the top two picks in the 2008 draft, he wanted to start trading away picks in 2005. His nefarious scheme involved trading the 2005 4th for a 2006 3rd, which would then be traded for a 2007 2nd, which would then be traded for a 2008 1st. Similar trades would also be made with the later round picks.

By the time the 2008 draft rolled around, the Lions would have something like 50 draft picks which would be traded in two Ricky Williams type deals to acquire Henne and Hart, thus guaranteeing multiple Lion Super Bowl titles for the foreseeable future.

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Radical Idea.

kdsberman wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

I think the one player the Lions have that is at risk of being traded is Avril. They won't (I hope) just let him walk. If they can't get him signed, they'll tag and trade. Tennessee is the likely trade partner.

Definetely not doubting you by any means, but what evidence shows Tennesse as being a potential trade partner? Have they already showed interest?

That would be great in my opinion. I think having 2 first round picks in this years draft could go a long way in helping this team.

My reasoning is that:

1. The obvious connection between the Lions and Titans based on Schwartz. I think he left on good terms and as such they could do deals without feeling like they are dealing with the "enemy", so to speak.

2. Tennessee got like four sacks on the entire season in 2011 from their defensive ends. They are in DIRE need of pass rushers. With the new CBA reducing rookie salaries, and those rookies being basic unknowns, I think that most teams would prefer to get a young, established veteran going to their second contract then draft and pray.

3. Tennessee has the 20th pick, which I think is fair compensation for Avril from them. They have all the rest of their picks, and will probably get some pretty solid compensation picks for Tulloch and Babin. The 21st pick in the second round isn't enough return for a guy who registered 11.5 sacks on the season, and 20 over the past two. In truth, the Lions could probably get even more, maybe a late rounder in addition.

Certainly there are other teams with higher picks who may be interested in Avril, and if that's the case and they are willing to pay that price, then of course the Titans are left out in the cold. But in this instance, the Titans are the most needy team and I think would be the ones most willing to hand over the best compensation.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

February 22nd, 2012, 10:48 am

thegodjr

Walk On

Joined: April 29th, 2010, 1:17 pmPosts: 391

Re: Radical Idea.

m2karateman wrote:

kdsberman wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

I think the one player the Lions have that is at risk of being traded is Avril. They won't (I hope) just let him walk. If they can't get him signed, they'll tag and trade. Tennessee is the likely trade partner.

Definetely not doubting you by any means, but what evidence shows Tennesse as being a potential trade partner? Have they already showed interest?

That would be great in my opinion. I think having 2 first round picks in this years draft could go a long way in helping this team.

My reasoning is that:

1. The obvious connection between the Lions and Titans based on Schwartz. I think he left on good terms and as such they could do deals without feeling like they are dealing with the "enemy", so to speak.

2. Tennessee got like four sacks on the entire season in 2011 from their defensive ends. They are in DIRE need of pass rushers. With the new CBA reducing rookie salaries, and those rookies being basic unknowns, I think that most teams would prefer to get a young, established veteran going to their second contract then draft and pray.

3. Tennessee has the 20th pick, which I think is fair compensation for Avril from them. They have all the rest of their picks, and will probably get some pretty solid compensation picks for Tulloch and Babin. The 21st pick in the second round isn't enough return for a guy who registered 11.5 sacks on the season, and 20 over the past two. In truth, the Lions could probably get even more, maybe a late rounder in addition.

Certainly there are other teams with higher picks who may be interested in Avril, and if that's the case and they are willing to pay that price, then of course the Titans are left out in the cold. But in this instance, the Titans are the most needy team and I think would be the ones most willing to hand over the best compensation.

I could see the Titans as a possible suitor, I think the Jags are another

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10066Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Radical Idea.

thegodjr wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

kdsberman wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

I think the one player the Lions have that is at risk of being traded is Avril. They won't (I hope) just let him walk. If they can't get him signed, they'll tag and trade. Tennessee is the likely trade partner.

Definetely not doubting you by any means, but what evidence shows Tennesse as being a potential trade partner? Have they already showed interest?

That would be great in my opinion. I think having 2 first round picks in this years draft could go a long way in helping this team.

My reasoning is that:

1. The obvious connection between the Lions and Titans based on Schwartz. I think he left on good terms and as such they could do deals without feeling like they are dealing with the "enemy", so to speak.

2. Tennessee got like four sacks on the entire season in 2011 from their defensive ends. They are in DIRE need of pass rushers. With the new CBA reducing rookie salaries, and those rookies being basic unknowns, I think that most teams would prefer to get a young, established veteran going to their second contract then draft and pray.

3. Tennessee has the 20th pick, which I think is fair compensation for Avril from them. They have all the rest of their picks, and will probably get some pretty solid compensation picks for Tulloch and Babin. The 21st pick in the second round isn't enough return for a guy who registered 11.5 sacks on the season, and 20 over the past two. In truth, the Lions could probably get even more, maybe a late rounder in addition.

Certainly there are other teams with higher picks who may be interested in Avril, and if that's the case and they are willing to pay that price, then of course the Titans are left out in the cold. But in this instance, the Titans are the most needy team and I think would be the ones most willing to hand over the best compensation.

I could see the Titans as a possible suitor, I think the Jags are another

Any team is truly a possibility. However, with a top ten pick I think the Jags would prefer to concentrate on getting a top notch rookie DE like Quinton Coples. It's all speculation, of course. But I approach the idea thinking from a GMs point of view.....if I had a top ten pick, and there is a high likelihood of a top DE falling into my lap at my pick, with the contract being more affordable than that of an established player who was good, but not great, would I make that trade? For me, imagining that I am the Jags GM, for this particular draft I would hold out hope of getting Coples rather than trading that pick for Avril and signing him to a hefty deal.

Of course, the Jags might be a team that would try to trade their second and fourth rounders to the Lions for Avril, keeping their first round pick, and get both. I would imagine there will be a great number of teams contacting the Lions to gage interest. It's all a matter of what the Lions would take in return. Would you prefer a high second and fourth round package in favor of the twentieth overall pick? I wouldn't. I'll take the 20th pick and try to land a top talent. Now, if the Jags were to up the ante and throw in a conditional pick in 2013, starting as something like a 3rd rounder which could escalate to a second rounder depending on Avril's playing time and sack numbers, then I might have second thoughts.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

February 22nd, 2012, 11:06 am

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3422Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: Radical Idea.

m2karateman wrote:

thegodjr wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

kdsberman wrote:

m2karateman wrote:

I think the one player the Lions have that is at risk of being traded is Avril. They won't (I hope) just let him walk. If they can't get him signed, they'll tag and trade. Tennessee is the likely trade partner.

Definetely not doubting you by any means, but what evidence shows Tennesse as being a potential trade partner? Have they already showed interest?

That would be great in my opinion. I think having 2 first round picks in this years draft could go a long way in helping this team.

My reasoning is that:

1. The obvious connection between the Lions and Titans based on Schwartz. I think he left on good terms and as such they could do deals without feeling like they are dealing with the "enemy", so to speak.

2. Tennessee got like four sacks on the entire season in 2011 from their defensive ends. They are in DIRE need of pass rushers. With the new CBA reducing rookie salaries, and those rookies being basic unknowns, I think that most teams would prefer to get a young, established veteran going to their second contract then draft and pray.

3. Tennessee has the 20th pick, which I think is fair compensation for Avril from them. They have all the rest of their picks, and will probably get some pretty solid compensation picks for Tulloch and Babin. The 21st pick in the second round isn't enough return for a guy who registered 11.5 sacks on the season, and 20 over the past two. In truth, the Lions could probably get even more, maybe a late rounder in addition.

Certainly there are other teams with higher picks who may be interested in Avril, and if that's the case and they are willing to pay that price, then of course the Titans are left out in the cold. But in this instance, the Titans are the most needy team and I think would be the ones most willing to hand over the best compensation.

I could see the Titans as a possible suitor, I think the Jags are another

Any team is truly a possibility. However, with a top ten pick I think the Jags would prefer to concentrate on getting a top notch rookie DE like Quinton Coples. It's all speculation, of course. But I approach the idea thinking from a GMs point of view.....if I had a top ten pick, and there is a high likelihood of a top DE falling into my lap at my pick, with the contract being more affordable than that of an established player who was good, but not great, would I make that trade? For me, imagining that I am the Jags GM, for this particular draft I would hold out hope of getting Coples rather than trading that pick for Avril and signing him to a hefty deal.

Of course, the Jags might be a team that would try to trade their second and fourth rounders to the Lions for Avril, keeping their first round pick, and get both. I would imagine there will be a great number of teams contacting the Lions to gage interest. It's all a matter of what the Lions would take in return. Would you prefer a high second and fourth round package in favor of the twentieth overall pick? I wouldn't. I'll take the 20th pick and try to land a top talent. Now, if the Jags were to up the ante and throw in a conditional pick in 2013, starting as something like a 3rd rounder which could escalate to a second rounder depending on Avril's playing time and sack numbers, then I might have second thoughts.

While I would much rather have a first round pick for Avril, i probably would take a 2nd and 4th. If anything else, we could use those to possibly move up.