The company mentioned here, near the close of a years time, did come to
an agreement with me in a phone call from them. I have since made
additional purchases from them and regardless of the fact they no longer
sell or support the Amiga. I've done alot of price comparisions in looking
for equipment for myself and companies I have worked for. They may not
always have the lowest price but I have found some good deals and find
they are a good source or base for price comparision. Other than the
Amiga problems I have found their service very good.
The time line of the following is over a period of four to five months,
to the best of my determination/recall. The time period is that I bought
the A4000 before Commodore went out of business and dealt with all this
afterward.
=======================================================================
RE:___________To three Banks___________________________________________
I don't really know where to start this letter, so I'll just state my
objective.
I wish to have warranty repair or replacement service of a
purchase I made.
Due to the experience I have had to date, I feel I need to
communicate to the Bank Card companies involved in the purchase, what the
situation has been. I believe with a little help from the Bank Card
companies involved I shall obtain warranty service. Or at worst, my money
back (I prefer repair or replacement).
It needs to be understood that I have had to deal with alot of
B.S. even before this purchase was made. I had attempted to make the
purchase from another company but canceled due to non-delivery. This first
company, I am certain, was not being honest in many ways.
*** for the web page - This was a company in canada who placed many ads in
issues of AC. I believe the initials of the company name is/was C.A. and I
did have to deal with a bank to remove a loss to me of about $150 due to
currency exchange. The bank absorbed this expence so I wouldn't have to.
*****
Because the Bank Card (1) I had used was tied up in correcting the
problems caused by this first company, I had to use three (3) other cards to
make the purchase. This is why there are three Bank Cards involved in this
purchase.
I had suspected there was a problem and tried to get someone to
check the purchase for problems (the purchase was an Amiga 4000/040
computer). I was unable to get help with this although I had tried the
local Authorized Dealers/Service Centers.
Not knowing weither it was something I was doing or a software
bug or the computer hardware, I tried to determine the source of the
problem. I had talked to the companies who produced the software and did
find some software problems. So I assumed that was all there was to it.
As time went on and I purchased other software, the hardware
problem showed up better. Not having been able to get the initial check of
the computer when I first suspected a problem has resulted in a great deal
of frustration for me in trying to be productive with the computer.
I discovered one of the audio ports was not working and attempted
to get a return authorization from the company I bought it from, but the
tech person I spoke with was unwilling to give me this return code while
putting forth the effort to blame me for the problem, looking for an excuse.
I asked the local Dealer/Authorized Service center and was told to
bring it to them and that they would fix it under warranty, that they had
the needed parts to fix it. So I did so only to receive a call for me to
pick it up, that they would not fix it because I didn't buy it from them
(Note the enclosed copy of the Warranty and that this action goes against it).
I have tried every route to have my purchased fixed. I have found
the manufacture hiding behind Dealers, a 900 phone number ($10 first min.),
and answering machines. I also understand the manufacture has altered the
product by removing the hard drive and giving the product a different stock
number. I do not believe this should prevent replacement, knowing it is a
simple matter to move a hard drive from one computer to another.
I also learned from the 900 number the replacement parts are on
back order and have been for 3-4 months. Though there is plenty of this
same product on store shelves (minus the hard drive).
To date I have learned my computer has more than just an audio
problem, but has suspected DMA (direct memory access) problems and I
understand Commodore is aware this is a problem in a few computers. In all my
efforts, I finally took a good visual inspection of the computer and found
the hot running 68040 CPU had at best a %5 contact with the heat sink mounted
to it. There was simply not enough heat sink compound used between the two.
Clearly a manufacturing error. In addition it was clear to me that part
of the computer was of remanufactured parts.
I have been in touch with Todd (senior tech.) at the company I
bought it from. It is possible that he may be able to use parts from a
demo model they are no longer using. I realize this is not in line with
warranty repair being from new or remanufactured parts. However, it may at
least get my computer working correctly. I should know the results of his
findings 4/25/94 but even in the event he can use the parts in my system,
it will be at least a week and a half before I can verify success.
Considering the sole intent of my purchase, to promote use of this
computer make ( The Amiga ) both internally and externally with the trade
show company I work for (possible additional sales of the Amiga computer), I
not only currently have little concern for the Manufactures problems but
feel I have had to deal with far to much B.S.
With more money invested in other hardware and software, for use on
this computer, as well as believing in the architecture of the computer
(as does many others - including such companies involved in the production
of such T.V. shows as "StarTrek - The Next Generation", "SeaQuest", "Babalon
5", etc.) I do intend to pursue the use of the computer and promoting it to
the company I work for. I am also pursuing the purchase of such equipment to
allow me to check and repair such problems myself, in attempt to get around
such problems in the future. However, this computer is under warranty and I
expect it to be fixed or replaced ASAP (6 months is long enough.)
**************
Due to the unbelievable amount of B.S. I have had to deal with, I
feel I need to communicate this to the Bank Card companies involved in this
purchase. And Ask that you communicate to both the company I bought it from
as well as the manufacture, perhaps with mention of a possible charge back,
should my purchase not be corrected/repaired or replaced. Unfortunatly, it
seems the only action I have been able to get is with the threat of such a
charge back. I hold Commodore responsible more so than any other company.
The cost, stress, frustration, and time wasted I have had to deal
with, far out-weight ANY excuse to not replace the whole computer with a new
one off the store shelf, if that is what it takes.
It should have been as simple as taking it to the Local Authorized
Service Center and picking it up a few days later, with it working
properly. Knowing they had the proper parts!
All things considered, I have developed a distrust for Dealers
and "Authorized Service Centers" dealing with this computer make.
Please communicate with the following companies:
1) Manufacture:
Commodore Business Machines,Inc. President:
1200 Wilson Drive Irving Gould
West Chester, PA 19380 375 Park Ave.
(215) 431-9100 Suite 2109
New York, NY 10152
(212) 935-3840
2) Dealer (purchased from)
Creative Computers Senior Technician:
4453 Redondo Bch. Blvd. Todd
Lawndale, CA 90260 Ph----------------
(310) 542-2292
Creative Computers was very prompt in sending my order to me. Three
days Fed-Ex at no charge to myself. However, recall my initial
attempt to have them repair it, as mentioned above. I do not recall
who it was that I spoke with at that time.
I have tried to avoid going through the Bank Cards due to
having to do this with my first attempt to make the purchase. But
Feel that I have no Choice if I am to get this purchase put into
proper working order.
Thank You.
Timothy Rue
Enclosed find:
COPY Bank Card Statements from all three Bank Card Companies.
Telephone Bill for two months (this month has yet to come).
Purchase packing slip.
Warranty card.
P.S. I wouldn't be a bit supprised should an investigation
conclude that Commodore actions/inactions is the root of this
problem. Also since I had little choice as to which hardware
revisions the computer contained (it's not labled on the box or
mentioned otherwise) I do not care to hear about revision numbers
being an excuse to not repair/replace this computer. I don't expect
any upgrade but don't deserve a downgrade either. I just want my
computer to work properly.
========================================================================
Creative Computers
Technical Support
2645 Maricopa Street
Torrance, CA 90503
Attn: Todd - Technical Support ** SR1042T **
Contents of Package - A4000/040/120HD/6MB system w/keyboard & mouse
Audio problem - an output port is out - don't recall if it is right or left
but I've never heard the Amiga beep. I have switched it off
in effort to prevent any possible additional damage.
Helm - open the "Toast-it" drawer then the "Helm" drawer. Click on the
"menu4000" icon then try to run either of the tutorials.
System locks up. I have talked to both Brent Malnack (author)
and the maker of Helm (Eagle Tree), and have determined the
problem lies in the hardware. I have also run this tutorial
on other A4000/040s with no problem.
Narrator (Helm) - while in the menu4000 main menu, click on the right mouse
button. go to the Author pull-down menu and select narrator
and this will give you a control panel. Due to the version
of the narrator.device and translator.library I have
installed - only the first few controls should work, but
they don't. Workbench 2.0 narrator.device and
translator.library should make full use of all the controls
(don't have it - don't know - but would like to know).
Helm tend to crash on me when I'm working in HAM8 mode and overscan
larger than default size ("Display" in the Author pull down menu).
PowerPacker - running powerpacker23a in the archivers dir will crash the
system unless all cache is turned off. I understand
power packer works on other A4000/040 without cache turned
off.
Version program (Commodore)- open the shell (cli) type:
csh/csh (return) /*this runs csh*/
foreach i ( */* ) Version $i (return)
/* note the spaces and capitol "V"ersion */
This may or may not crash the system (just tried it and
it did). If it doesn't crash on you, try redirection to a
file or printer (printer seems to crash more often).
Note: the amount of heat sink compound used between the CPU and heat sink
was such that there was at best a 5% contact. I did add what you
can see. I did this on 4/08/94. I'm concerned now about the damage
to the CPU and it's life span because of the lack of enough heat
sink compound during it's operation time period up to 4/8/94.
Problems suggest a DMA problem?!
I have on order (backordered) the Advanced Amiga Analyzer from
"The Grapevine Group". I would have liked to have used it on this
broken system, but also want it fixed ASAP. If you have and use this
Analyzer and if it has a printout, if it's not to much trouble could
You make me copy of the printout on this broken system?
Thanks,
Timothy Rue
Monitor I use is a 1084. Also my setup is with a Toaster and 18megs
of ram. And a second Hard Drive.
******* SR1042T *******
=======================================================================
RE:____________To three Banks_________________________________________
About the same time I had first notified the bank cards involved
I finally received a return authorization # from Creative Computers.
I returned the Computer for repair. I understood replacement parts
would be from a demo model and agreed to this because replacement
parts are impossible to find.
Within the first month of having the repaired system it completely
failed (system locks up completely on turning it on). So I bought
another system locally.
I have spent alot on trying to deal with this situation (phone
calls, shipping, additional test equipment to diagnose the problems,
stress, etc.) And there is only ONE way to bring this to a close. I
am the only party that is ONE person and "the consumer" in this
situation. I cannot run others around in a circle as has been done
to me. I have been honest and fair and in return this situation
has only gotten worst. I will no longer be given impossible to
meet expectations or excuses!
Creative Computers has offered to let me send the system back for
repair but this does not work. The first time I did this resulted
in my having a system that doesn't work at all. Also Creative
Computer no longer does repair work on this system (there own
words) and is as well getting out of dealing this line of computers.
And add to this that replacement parts are not availble (the reason
why parts were used from a demo model the first time).
Creative Computers gave me the option of returning the whole order
at a 20% cost to me (that's about $900 and I get nothing for it but
the additional cost of shipping). But it doesn't stop here. The
requirements I must meet to return the order is impossible for me
to meet. A system of eight months old cannot possibile be in
"orginal condition" (not to mention the repair/replacement work)
and the warranty card was mailed to the manufacture as I was
supposed to do (standard pratice of registering warranty). The
second system I bought locally didn't even have a warranty card.
I have more money (much more than the cost of the computer system)
tied up in additional equipment that can only be used by this make
of computer and I do now have a second but working system to use
this equipment with. And because of the incredible problems I have
had with a non-existant warranty service, the following is what is
GOING TO HAPPEN.
1) Creative Computers is going to notify me (with proof) of their
wholesale cost of the "A4000 040/6MB/120HD". Also they will do the
same for the "CPU board without the CPU". These wholesale prices
will be for the month of my purchase of the system (November 19, 93.)
Proof verifiable through the distributer whom Creative Computers
purchased it from.
Wholesale (their cost) of:
A4000 040/6MB/120HD ___________________________
CPU Board without CPU __________________________
Their wholesale cost of the "CPU Board without CPU" will be
substracted from their wholesale cost of the A4000 040/6MB/120HD
A4000 040/6MB/120HD - CPU Board without CPU =_____________________
To this, $80.00 will be added to allow for the Shipping Cost
incurred by Creative Computers in the initial purchase and repair
attempt.
+ $80.00
-------
Total _____________
A) The total of this I will pay by notifying the Bankcards to
charge back this amount to me. And as soon as I'm satified with the
proof.
The other Items that are part of the purchase will also be charged
back to me, but this will happen at the time of A) above and no
sooner or later. Giving Creative Computers the incentive to get
this (communication of their wholesale costs) done soon and
correctly (no more excuses otherwise an additional reduction in
what I'll pay will happen and be based upon the market value today
of used equipment.)
2) Once the above has happened, I will return the "CPU Board
without CPU" to Creative Computers so they can verify the part
is faulty and do with it what they will (probably trash it or
send it back to whom ever to recoup their cost).
FACT: Although there is a written warranty for one year, this is
invalid. My experience has proven there is NO WARRANTY SERVICE of
any real value. There is no exceptions to this regardless of any
statements made. No statement will replace the frustration and
stress I have had in trying to get warranty service over many many
months. End of warranty topic!
What the above will accomplish is the following:
Creative Computers will incure little or no loss and will be able
to close this matter. The banks (3) will be able to close this
matter. And I will be stuck with an incomplete (non-operational)
computer system that I can use for spare parts should my other
system fail and at the wholesale cost as though it is working
(rather than a lower cost of buying used parts.) Note that it is
unlikley for me to ever need all the spare parts this will leave
me with. And considering the additional cost I've incured and will
incure (interest), I'll in essence be paying much more for these
"spare parts" I never intended to buy.
As a customer of Creative Computers that has spent $3371.00 in
other purchases from them (not including the faulty unit), of which
one of the items ($800.00) contains a broken part (it's almost not
usable and may become a problem for me that I would have to fix
myself), I KNOW the above is more than fair to Creative Computers.
This is WHAT WILL HAPPEN! Otherwise, I will scar my good credit
rating because of "NO REAL WARRANTY SERVICE".
Timothy V. Rue
P.S. To the Banks - If the above process results in an "over the
limit" then my credit limit will be rasied to avoid penality or
I will be given the opportunity to transfer the "over the limit"
amount to another card and without penality.
======================================================================
NationsBank Card Services
Cardholder Chargebacks
Two Commercial Place, 4th Floor
P.O. Box 1390
Norfolk, VA 23501-1390
RE: Account Number ----------------
In responce to the questions presented.
1) Were you informed of a return policy at the time of the
transaction? Yes 20%
2) Did you make any modifications to the computer or were only the
store modifications made? No - none that would void the
manufacture warranty.
There is no need for me to answer these questions at all! Creative
Computers is the party needing to answer questions, not me!
This matter is far beyond the above questions. The above questions
are not part of the solution.
Creative Computers only needs to answer the questions I have asked.
The solution is really quite simple. The solution is one where I
get stuck with a computer that does not work. The question is "HOW
MUCH AM I GOING TO PAY FOR IT?"
I'll pay wholesale price for this "used but non-operational
computer". That is I will pay their (Creative Computers) wholesale
cost for all the parts that work (though as a whole it does not
work). That is wholesale price as though the parts are "new" but in
reality used (demo parts).
Why? Simply because I KNOW I am getting screwed! I will no longer
listen to any more promises or excuses from Creative Computers. I
have heard to many contridictions, unreasonable expectations placed
on myself by Creative Computers (conditions of return regardless of
"restocking fee"), and manipulation (the twisting) of facts (mostly
regarding the written warranty and their "choice" interpretation of
it). And All I'm Doing Now is Reducing My Losses. The best I can
do with this computer is to sell it. Even if I somehow replace the
non-working part, I can only sell it as used equipment with no
warranty (which didn't really exist to begin with despite the
written warranty). All things considered, There is no way for me to
not take a loss, no matter what! And until this matter is closed I
cannot do anything with it and see no point in deciding what to do
with it. The more time goes by the less I'll be able to get for it,
if I decide to sell it, but maybe I should keep it for replacement
parts for the working system I bought, should it fail. Knowing what
I've been through with trying to get repair work done, this might
be the best thing I can do.)
I do not blame Creative Computers for the faulty (poorly manufactured
equiptment) and know the party responsible for it is no longer in
business.
THE MOST IMPORTANT FACT OF ALL:
Because of the problems and eventual "out of business" status of
the manufacture, there are losses to be had! This is the reason or
motive behind why Creative Computers has not been straight or fair
with me in this matter. The why behind the BULL!
The BIG QUESTION: "WHO is going to loose?"
The ANSWER: Clearly in this matter it is "ME" regardless of what
happens. I've have suffered losses I cannot recoup!
All that needs to be done is for Creative Computers to communicate
to me the wholesale prices as I have already communicated (asked
for.)
This is not a matter of weither or not I am to be charged but
"HOW MUCH?"
In the mean time Creative Computers Needs a motive to communicate
to me the amounts I have asked for. Why have I not received this
information yet? The answer to this question is the same reason
why I know it is not a good idea to charge back my accounts at this
time. I'm fully aware of the fact I will be paying back finance
charges, compounded. Again it is a matter of "HOW MUCH?" a question
only Creative Computers can answer. So why don't they simply answer
the questions so that this matter can be closed, rather than
continuing to be additional expence of time, energy, stress and
money on my part?
I've done the best I can in acting in good faith and in being fair.
Sence this problem began, I've bought a total of something around
$1300.00 worth of products from Creative Computers.
Timothy Rue
==================================================================
In addition to the above, I had found a source of 68040's 25Mhz full
and at a very good price. I offered these over the net.
I removed the posters full name and address because he was only a go
between in making a communication connection (the other side of the world,
down under, it can be a problem. Email not only made it possible but saved
the dollar a min. phone charge).
Needless to say, the CPU's were received and worked fine, but I never
received payment. Why, I do not know, but in honesty this gray area is
where the safety of easy to apply dishonesty exist. A good sounding excuse
can always be made up when needed, ultimately being the worst case
attitude of "I'm going to screw you and if you don't let me then I'm going
to screw you." Interestingly enough, the company name was or still is (?)
Amiga Tech. (technologies?). But before Escom and I do not believe related
to Escom.
======================================================================
From: TIM RUE Conference: 4 , +eed.com email
------------- -----------------------------
Subj: Re: 68040's Date: 09/27/95 Time: 21:27
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:26:16 +1000 (EST)
> From:-------------------------------------
> To: TIM RUE
> Subject: Re: 68040's
>
>
> Cool...thanx...
>
> Karl....
>
Karl,
I appriciate all your help. This is a learning experience for
me. Here's a few questions.
First I picked up five to send, got the package ready to go,
then found out what the UPS charge would be. 45-50 US dollars. Didn't
have enough in my pocket.
UPS told me the least expensive route for shipping would be
the US postal service. Don't yet know the cost and it may be monday
(your tuesday) that I'll get a chance to do this.
Also I understand there is no duty but a 21% Domestic Tax to
be paid at the time of delivery. I believe this tax is based on the
value I place on the contents.
The cost of shipping, whose to pay it, was not clear (though
I did say in my orginal post that the price included shipping - I
wasn't considering international shipment).
In consideration of the above along with the fact these are
surplus/used 68040's, if I list the value at $15 US each this will
save you all a bit more than shipping cost. And you all pay shipping.
What Robert and I agreed upon was that I would send them and
he would verify functionality before making payment. In the event any
are faulty he would return the faulty to me. Payment would be made on
working, at the price he and I agreed on, via deposit to my checking
account.
(*note - I have no reason to believe any will be found bad but these
are used/surplus and I have no way to verify functionality - unless I
use my system to do so and this is not something I want to do nor do
I have the proper tool to do so. In addition, if even one is bad I
stand to loose money on this set of five, so my confidence here should
show in my willingness to send them.)
In summary, the question(s). Is it cool to list value at $15 US
each (for purpose of customs and in consideration of unknown status)
and have you all pay shipping?
BTW, this supply turned out to be a bit smaller than I thought. My
source only had seven unmounted (not the 10 - 12) so I have to follow
this in regards to the amount he can pull from surplus boards. In
other words, I figure about 5-7 additional 68040 can be obtained
rather quickly with others slowly comming in.
Karl, please pass this on to Robert. I'm doing my best to get these
out to you all.
Thanks, Tim Rue