I don't follow NHB, but my understanding of it is that everyone who participates is brainwashed into training in one particular way (boxing or some variation plus BJJ or some variation) and think that all other methods are useless. I have never heard of anyone with genuine seniority in a TMA participate in MMA, and even those I have heard of, I've never heard of anyone fighting stylisticly.

Plus look at all the study and research Meijin has done to gain an accurate working knowledge of these techniques. Most MMA types look like books scare them [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] (jk). But of all the people who've posted on this thread only a very few seem to have a strong knowledge of PP's, and I imagine they have better things to do with their time than enter MMA tourneys.

Hedgehogy it sounds as though you are only trying to rubbish an idea regardless of the facts. The finger strike is only one possible method of hitting, you've focussed on it because it seems to be the least safe method, even though you're well aware that ippon ken (as well as some others) are just as viable.

Are there any other reasons you think such a technique (which Im sure is only one of a number of possible techniques) is impractical. I mean I'm sure your not saying you couldnt find a way to expose an armpit while your making love to your opponent on the floor [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by meijin:For our friend Hedgehogey's sake (primarily so he will not get his gi pants in a wad and cut off blood flow), I will choose a location that has both a Modern Western Medical (MWM) and Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM or Zhongyixue in Chinese) approach. <grin!>

Look to the Axilla, Axillary Fossa or Axillary Cavity...also known as the armpit. From the TCM paradign, we would be speaking of the HT-1 (Heart 1) point called Jiquan (Summit Spring).

At this location, we are dealing with the upper roots of the brachial plexus. In this area, the brachial plexus exits the neck, goes over the first rib and under the clavicle. It then traverses under the corcoid process and inserts into pectoralis minor and then onto the axilla and then on down the arm (for those of you that do not know or don't have a copy of Gray's Anatomy handy, the brachial plexus (and here we are talking of including the C-8 and T-1 nerve roots) is a part of the Sympathetic Nervous System and is a network of motor and sensory nerves which innervate the hand, the arm, the shoulder and upper chest girdle. Local anatomy includes the subclavian artery and vein, the axillary artery, etc.

In this particular case, the trapezius and levator scapulae muscles protect from unwanted compression of the brachial plexus by the clavicle as it goes over the first rib. This is important. When watching sports, you have heard of them refer to a "stinger", right? That is what this unwanted compression is. when you see a hockey player get checked into the boards or a football running back hit the line with a lowered shoulder and head (or up ended and landing on the shoulder), this creates the unwanted compression and hence the stinger. This also brings up the use of terms...is this a point that lays someone out stiff as a board and unable to move? No. Are they paralyzed? To me yes...look at the guy with the stinger in the example above. For all practical purposes, he is paralyzed. He can do nothing. It is like saying that "if it don't work, it is broken". In the strictest technical sense does it really matter if an elbow is dislocated or the arm is broken? Are the short term immediate results pretty much the same?

To attack this point, use something like Nakadakaken (Nakadaka Ipponken), Keikoken, Nihon Nukite, Ippon Nukite, Boshiken or even Koken. I am not a fan of Koken as it provides for a much larger striking surface or area of target impact, but when delivered with Te no Omoi, proper Kiryoku and the resulting Chiru Nu Chan Chan...then it will surely have the desired result.

That help any at all with the original question?

[This message has been edited by meijin (edited 02-17-2005).][/QUOTE]

Look, i just want to know wat the h3ll u guys r talkin about. i dont know much japanese or chinese, only what little i have learned in Okinawa Shorin Ru, and didnt understand a word u just said.

Actually, I have had no ill effects at all from the iron palm training that I did. It came from the lineage of Ku Yu Cheong (Gu Ru Zhang) and is not at all like hitting a makiwara or the like. It emphasizes four main strikes (zhang, zhang bei, pi and hu zhua), but the fingers become quite strong as well. It is a gradual internal method with heavy use of dit da jow. So, there is no real damage to the hand or fingers if done correctly.

Now...as to the Arnis training that I did, that has caused some problems with the fingers due to less skilled training partners!

You are correct though that a nukite type of strike is generally done to a soft target...or at least softer targets. For instance, one would not do a nukite to someone's skull. But, a nukite is not a poke. It is a strike. It is called a spearhand for a reason.

Michael[/QUOTE]

Did you do that training before or after you "claimed" you were a SEAL?

[This message has been edited by RyuShikan Tokyo (edited 03-02-2005).]

Just thought I'd side with meijin on this one. He is correct. It is not a "poke." It is a strike, and, with MUCH practice, can transform into a painful move. However, moves are never "ineffective", it is simply the user of the move. A punch from me, a moderate MA, is nothing compared to my Master. That is because I am not as well learned as him, not because the move is "ineffective." Just thought I'd point out that saying a move is "ineffective" is as ridiculous as saying Judo is less effective that Tae Kwon Do, or Aikido is less effective that Ninjutsu. Each art is good in it's respective ways. Heck, there are some street fighters whose only "technique" is a hard right to the nose, but it can be more effective that an MA's Roundhouse Backick (or whatever move you prefer, I simply prefer TKD, since I study it.) I guess to some up my point, MOVES AREN'T STUPID IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO USE EM!