Though there is also willful disregard. If a TV show that runs five years, twenty episodes per year messes continuity up then it's foolish to think a universe that has been running for 30+ years in several different mediums to keep it straight.

Except in most cases (dare say ALL cases with the TV show) the messes with Continuity are all caused by GL

One flaw. One flaw needing removed from the system for it to run smoothly again

Part of why I still maintain the issues will go away when he passes on.

Yet there's been continuity issues long before GL got involved in Star Wars once again. Long before the cartoon or Prequel were in development. I just finished re-reading Dark Empire I&II for the first time in years and lost count of home many continuity issues there were in those two stories alone.

The Clone Wars cartoon might be the large offender at the moment, and the one with the biggest fan base as well. But it is far from the only problem with continuity in the long history of Star Wars.

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:43 pm

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HogyMaster

Joined: 14 Dec 2011Posts: 951Location: Nar Shaddaa

I agree with Werehunter here.

C-canon has been contradicting it self long before the cartoon. But now TCW gets the blame for every thing bed ever made in SW.

Don't get me wrong I hate ratcons made by the TCW, but I also equally hate it when a certain Jedi character is called one of the best swordsman in the order in one isue and inadequate and sloppy in the next.

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:47 pm

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Mad WookKnight

Joined: 14 Apr 2011Posts: 464

But the significant difference is that Dark Empire's writers weren't just blatantly stealing from and disregarding various parts of continuity at will. And in 1992, there wasn't near as many people paying attention to that sort of thing, much less one on the payroll of LFL.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:09 am

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DarthMRNMaster

Joined: 20 Jul 2011Posts: 555

Werehunter wrote:

I just finished re-reading Dark Empire I&II for the first time in years and lost count of home many continuity issues there were in those two stories alone.

Some examples? Major offenders?_________________I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:17 am

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WerehunterKnight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011Posts: 362

Some from the top of my head:

Fett being alive after being killed off in ROTJ.

The New Republic suddenly being the Rebel Alliance once again and not based out of Coruscant.

The Emperor using clones during his rule to heal his body from decay caused by the Dark Side. I can see him having clones to transfer his soul into if he died, but they made it sound as if he had been doing that time and time again. Which means he would have been aging and getting younger in cycles and somehow no one noticed.

The Emperor being able create Force Users, who somehow needed no training what so ever, with his own power when the movies had it someone needed to be born with the ability to use the Force.

The Rebels finding several other Jedi's in the universe, when the movies had it clear that the Empire had killed all the Jedi and that Luke was the last one left when Yoda died. And they weren't even looking for the Jedi, but rather just stumbled into them as they went about their business.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:11 am

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Caedus_16Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008Posts: 5355Location: Korriban

Jedi still existing in the galaxy was Looooong established before Dark Empire started, and it honestly makes more sense to have a few stragglers than for a total purge. Hitler missed some of his targets, Palps and Vader easily missed some to. In fact it makes tons of sense._________________Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:18 am

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WerehunterKnight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011Posts: 362

It might make sense, but it still contradicts the movies where they suggested Ben and Yoda were the last ones before Luke. Plus what bothered me was how they just stumbled over the Jedi they found, they weren't even searching for them. Which makes Vader and the Emperor look even worse if they managed to miss them. Hell, one was running his own system and was never caught.

And which book established Jedi remaining in the galaxy before Dark Empire? I'm not counting the C’baoth clone either since the Emperor created that one. I'm not counting people who have the ability to use the force, even though the Dark Empire series called them Jedi as well, but fully trained Old Republic Jedi.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:07 am

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Caedus_16Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008Posts: 5355Location: Korriban

Jedi Academy referenced it, There were a couple toss-outs in the Han Solo trilogy, and of course when Dark Empire came out it was all but certain. The films themselves make it seem like Obi-Wan is the last, then all the sudden there's also Yoda in the sequel even though this was never mentioned before. Only the RotS retcons made that make sense. Its SW, they trod on their own continuity so I think we should allow some leeway with the EU material._________________Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:44 am

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WerehunterKnight

Joined: 08 Apr 2011Posts: 362

Jedi Academy takes place right after the Dark Empire series and makes direct references. Though they were released about the same time, it's clear that Jedi Academy was working off the script created for Dark Empire. The Han Solo trilogy came out years later.

And Caedus, my point isn't that retcons are bad or that they have to stay strict in regards to continuity. But rather that the idea that all the problems with continuity stem from GL is wrong and continuity has been fluid since the start of the EU.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:14 am

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Caedus_16Master

Joined: 15 Apr 2008Posts: 5355Location: Korriban

Oh I never said it hadn't, but Lucas didn't need to keep in spirit of it. Having a couple Jedi still around in the galaxy is one thing in a comic, and that one is almost universally despised anyway. Having his prequel trilogy do anything BUT match with his original trilogy and trodding on years of work for a children's tv show that is only sort of a children's tv show is a totally different level of neglect. Say what you will, at least Dark Empire was attempting to do something different and interesting in the SW universe and it had several good ideas, just poor execution. Most of what Lucas has done has been cavalier and nonchalant in its ignorance towards story and plot (like I said, his stories are considered the ultimate canon but even they can't keep it straight. If the films don't have to adhere to their own canon and story, why should anything else?). That was my point._________________Perfection is a lifelong pursuit requiring sacrifice. The only way to get it quicker is to sacrifice the most.

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:30 am

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Jedi JoeMaster

Joined: 11 Jun 2009Posts: 1658

The problem is that the prequel trilogy turned the Jedi Order into a massive army when the original trilogy hinted at it being an underground cult. Hell, Han Solo balked at the idea of Jedi knights and the concept of the Force.

Had it been an underground cult, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Obi-Wan and Yoda to be the only survivors. But since the Order was revealed to have thousands upon thousands of members who were widely known to the galaxy, there would be no possible way for Vader to hunt down all of them, so there must be other survivors.

The PT really helped Dark Empire in that aspect, but it took away some of the mystery that the OT established about the Jedi._________________Darth Vegas the unwise...

Though there is also willful disregard. If a TV show that runs five years, twenty episodes per year messes continuity up then it's foolish to think a universe that has been running for 30+ years in several different mediums to keep it straight.

Except in most cases (dare say ALL cases with the TV show) the messes with Continuity are all caused by GL

One flaw. One flaw needing removed from the system for it to run smoothly again

Part of why I still maintain the issues will go away when he passes on.

Yet there's been continuity issues long before GL got involved in Star Wars once again. Long before the cartoon or Prequel were in development. I just finished re-reading Dark Empire I&II for the first time in years and lost count of home many continuity issues there were in those two stories alone.

The Clone Wars cartoon might be the large offender at the moment, and the one with the biggest fan base as well. But it is far from the only problem with continuity in the long history of Star Wars.

Yep- only since he got back involved the TRYING to make it work went right out the window.

I'm not saying TCW is the issue- it's the approach SW takes with GL stuff that's the problem. Treat him like ANY OTHER CONTRIBUTOR. And you can bet the need for retcons will be cut in half if not 90%._________________-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast

The Emperor being able create Force Users, who somehow needed no training what so ever, with his own power when the movies had it someone needed to be born with the ability to use the Force.

Actually the movies never say one way OR the other. That's a HUGE problem with the films- a lot of wiggle room and depending on who is doing the wiggling it could go in a direction most of us don't like and still work. But no where in the films does it say an individual has to be born with the ability. And yes the EU did play with that in the case of Jorj Car'das- Yoda ended up making him Force Sensitive in a fashion._________________-Bring on your thousands, one at a time or all in a rush. I don't give a damn. None shall pass.
-
-To become a Jedi, it is not the Force one must learn to control but oneself.
-
-Podcasts: Star Wars Beyond the Films, The Star Wars Report, & EUCast

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:09 am

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DarthMRNMaster

Joined: 20 Jul 2011Posts: 555

It is heavily implied, though. Heavily.

Quigs reasons that the kid has Jedi reflexes for his podracing abilities, tests his blood for midis, finds out he has more than 20.000. More than Yoda. Translation: Jedi abilties = Midi-chlorians.

As for Palp's ability to empower his minions, that at least has been retconned properly. The Dark Side Sourcebook gives the Sith Lord class the ability to augment the Force skills of an already sensitive character at the expense of an equal amount of his own. The fact that there were so few such minions already suggested he couldn't do it to just any old sam or joe._________________I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.

Last edited by DarthMRN on Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

How are Lucas' comments detrimental to the EU? They're only detrimental to those who are contradicted by them. You're the one turning a blind eye to them.

You are deliberately missing the point. That being how the GL view of the GFFA being sufficiently different from that of the EU, excuses a failsafe in case of catastrophe.

Quote:

Envision it all you want, that doesn't mean it actually happened. Speculation, wishful thinking, and appeals to ignorance constantly spewing from the fanbase don't constitute a canon position or a change on Lucas' part.

You mean you haven't read The Secret History of Star Wars? I won't say I'm surprised, given your obvious defense of the man, but you have always struck me as the sort of person who would eat all Lucas info you came across raw. I recommend it. It makes it's case by digging up lots of obscure old interview, article and screenplay quotes, and contrasting them with newer versions, which short of suspecting fabrication on the book's author's part, is hard to ignore.

Of course, given how you spend this rebuttal doing nothing but slinging personal attacks rather than arguing your case, I'm not holding my breath. Take it as a challenge, though: See whether you can support your current view of Lucas through a whole reading of that book. I know you can do it if you really focus hard. Good luck!

Quote:

Simon didn't say, eh? The commentaries don't fit any of the various excuses given for ignoring something, but they're to be ignored anyway?

You must not be familiar with the rules for the burden of proof. I am not required to prove a negative. You are required to prove a positive. The negative is the default.

Or in simpler terms, I repeat: Why should the commentaries be included to begin with? Then we can get into whether the rules of exclusion apply to them. Horse before cart.

Quote:

Content-free circular logic at its finest. Because you ( not we ) refuse to accept film dialogue and Lucas' word, you "needed" an EU source. This does not show that EU can supersede the movies. It only shows you refuse to accept any other outcome. You're not going to be able to show that the EU can supersede the movies by comically using an example where the EU and the movies agree. The EU agreeing with Lucas is not a case of it superseding anything. The whole concept of the EU superseding the movies is revealed as nothing more than a meaningless fantasy stemming from rejection of the well-known canon hierarchy.

Yeah, you'll have to explain how that constitutes circular logic, cause that makes no sense.

Also, you propose to challenge problematic logic with an ad populum fallacy? Good going, there! That the presumed rest of you don't need any convincing has to do with lack of a cricial eye for what costitutes scientifically valid evidence. I don't, however, assume a fanbase as large and varied as this can be pidgeonholed that easily, nor that you are in a position to represent the majority. This is an accusation leveled only at those who felt it hit them.

As for us needing the EU's word to confirm a GL word, yeah, it becomes authoritiative when there is another GL word which it could have gone with, but didn't. As well, it doesn't show that the EU can supercede the movies. I already showed a Leland quote proving that, so it is a foregone conclusion. This is merely an example thereof, and an odd one at that, since it applies only to fans on the outside who don't have the Holocron to refer to.

Quote:

DarthMRN wrote:

The EU even supports it in that the Sith came back

The Sith coming back in the EU doesn't necessarily mean that the Force became unbalanced again.

That is not what "supports" mean.

Quote:

DarthMRN wrote:

Say the obvious interpretation of Mortis is right: Balance truly means stay on Mortis and chain the Kids forever, with subtle effects on the real galaxy as a result.

That may be an interpretation of Mortis, but it's hardly an obvious or even correct one.

I agree that it is just an interpretation, whether it is the most obvious one will boil down to opinion. Saying it is incorrect, however, requires canonical evidence, something you have shown to be woefully incapable of providing. So don't sound so sure, why don't you. I already found that God-perspective EU evidence for Palp constituting the imbalance in the Force prior to Ani visiting Mortis, though the Fact Files. Though, of course, it is twarthed by Father saying Son had grown stronger lately, presumably in response to the Sith threat. Meaning that even did Ani come to rule Mortis with an iron fist, the Force could concievably have been brought back into balance through some mystical ripple-effect, rather than him personally doing the deed. The interpretation is still valid, though I like yours better, full of holes though it may be.

Quote:

But it's interesting that you insist on taking the Father's first opinion in Overlords as unassailable fact, despite his own dialogue in Ghosts of Mortis contradicting this viewpoint, when character dialogue is somehow not enough to confirm Anakin as the Chosen One. This is a transparent double standard.

You are wrong. My standard has always been the scientific one. Contradictory statements must be evaluated based on empirical data external to them. In this case, Ani being able to dominate the Kids in Overlords, thus giving mystical credence to Father's first account. You have consistently neglected to acknowledge the problem this point creates. By contrast, Father's second version of balance had no independent empirical validation before I dug up evidence for it from the Fact File. That version simply coincided with the movies, which provides OOU implication that it was the right one. But not valid evidence! That came from the Fact File claiming from the God-perspective, which is equal to empirical data, that killing Palp actually brought balance to the Force. Meaning version Ghosts is most likely correct, but unfortunately not explaining the mystical valdiation version Overlords got.

And as an aside, since I am not up to speed on our concurrent discussion on the Dark Horse boards, Father's version Ghosts is hampered by the problem that the life and death, the existence in the first place, of the Overlords is meaningless, both to the Force and to its balance. And that is the ultimate oddity you fail to address with your assertion that Mortis changes nothing. Whether they live or die, balance in the Force is a completely secular matter. Then what is their purpose to begin with? What are they supposed to be, whose power waxes and wanes with the power of the energy types in the normal galaxy?

Now, since I currently operate with a one-strike and you are out policy where you are concerned, Arawn, and this post has been devoted to your trademark evasion, personal attacks, simon-saying or at best reiteration of insufficient points you have already raised, I will have to ignore you if your next post doesn't countain any actual new coherent arguments._________________I discuss to learn, not to win. Then again, learning enough tends to translate to victory in the end anyway.

Last edited by DarthMRN on Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:26 pm; edited 2 times in total