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Poll: Which position was better argued and supported?

Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

The debate was not fully completed due to bluepinapple deciding to leave the debate before the post limit was reached.

When voting in the poll, please vote according to who's posts was well written/clear, who supported their claim the best, and who refuted the others claim/support the best.

Please do not vote based on your personal opinion on the topic itself.

Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin"Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

I don't want it to seem underhanded of me to vote against you, Just Me, as if I voted only because of my own personal views and didn't want to rationalize my vote according to the debate. When I have the time either today, or some other day this week, I will give a proper explanation of how I saw the debate.

There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

I thought both people debated well. I think most people are born with their sexuality, and sometimes its a choice. Sometimes people over-ride their natural inclinations so from that point of view it is a choice, but then again it might not last. Eg I know someone who's dad was married for years before coming out, and I knew a bloke living with a woman and he had formerly lived a gay life. I also knew a gay bloke who said he didnt believe there was such a thing as bi people, only straights trying to be gay and vice versa. I'm dubious about that idea. Anyway, overall, most people dont really choose to be gay and even if some can over-ride it, why should they have to?

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

There is ample evidence to support that by the time you have reached maturity, where you can "make a choice", that genetics and environment have shaped your preferences to a large degree. They have done numerous studies with genetic and fraternal twins, and there is a significantly higher correlation of sexual preference between genetic twins, but genetics isn't the whole story.

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by daveId

There is ample evidence to support that by the time you have reached maturity, where you can "make a choice", that genetics and environment have shaped your preferences to a large degree. They have done numerous studies with genetic and fraternal twins, and there is a significantly higher correlation of sexual preference between genetic twins, but genetics isn't the whole story.

Problem: The evidence is in no way conclusive, and the standpoint you are arguing from does not accept the bearing of the fact that people are frequently capable of changing their behavior/thinking in several different areas of their lives. Evidence has yet to be found that says that the issue of sexuality is different than any other of these issues that are just as intrinsic to the human psyche.

There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by Lukecash12

Problem: The evidence is in no way conclusive, and the standpoint you are arguing from does not accept the bearing of the fact that people are frequently capable of changing their behavior/thinking in several different areas of their lives.

I'm not saying choice isn't a component in some cases. The Poll is if it is All choice, which is pretty obviously false. I personally cannot choose to be gay, I'm not wired like that. Can you, Luke, choose to be gay? spoiler, if this is anything but NO, there will be a challenge issued

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Just managed to read through the thread. While I personally believe that homosexuality is not a choice, I still voted in favor of JM's debate.

She was the only one who backed up her claims, answered all questions. She didn't back out of the debate when she realised she was losing. She won, fair and square - and provided better arguments, too.

Frozen In Time Yearning Forbidden Wishes Damned And Divine
Scars Of My Broken Kisses What Will Follow If Tomorrow's Blind? My Eternal Night.

I don't want it to seem underhanded of me to vote against you, Just Me, as if I voted only because of my own personal views and didn't want to rationalize my vote according to the debate. When I have the time either today, or some other day this week, I will give a proper explanation of how I saw the debate.

looking forward to the explanation

Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin"Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

I'm not saying choice isn't a component in some cases. The Poll is if it is All choice, which is pretty obviously false. I personally cannot choose to be gay, I'm not wired like that. Can you, Luke, choose to be gay? spoiler, if this is anything but NO, there will be a challenge issued

I was gay. And then I decided it contradicted my beliefs about relationships (which is a separate issue from this and I don't want to discuss it).

I never felt that my body physiologically required of me to be attracted to men. I simply became accustomed to the idea of being gay because of my doubts as to whether or not I truly was heterosexual. After that long process, I decided that my sexuality was definitely a choice, that my body would react physiologically to either sex (which it will, just like how a straight man can get an involuntary erection if he's grinded up against by another man), and that I preferred to be heterosexual because it lined up with my beliefs.

looking forward to the explanation

I already gave you that explanation, Just Me, and here it is:

Problem: The evidence is in no way conclusive, and the standpoint you are arguing from does not accept the bearing of the fact that people are frequently capable of changing their behavior/thinking in several different areas of their lives. Evidence has yet to be found that says that the issue of sexuality is different than any other of these issues that are just as intrinsic to the human psyche.

Because you could not prove that it was necessarily a matter of genetics, by way of indisputable evidence (which if you're perplexed about what I would dispute you can debate me about it some time), you lost the debate by default.

Last edited by Lukecash12; January 7th, 2011 at 11:00 PM.

There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by Lukecash12

I already gave you that explanation, Just Me, and here it is:

Because you could not prove that it was necessarily a matter of genetics, by way of indisputable evidence (which if you're perplexed about what I would dispute you can debate me about it some time), you lost the debate by default.

meh.. oh well.. doesn't really matter.. Seems more feels different about that then you so.. does not look like I lost the debate

27.27% vs 72.73% says a lot lol

Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin"Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by Just Me

meh.. oh well.. doesn't really matter.. Seems more feels different about that then you so.. does not look like I lost the debate

27.27% vs 72.73% says a lot lol

I didn't get anything else I understood from that than that you got more votes so you must have won. I'm not going to have an argument with you, and I merely gave you the reasons I promised I'd give for my vote, because I wanted you to know that I wasn't just judging the debate according to my own views on the subject material.

There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

I've had friends who "experimented", but I don't consider them gay. Certainly you can appreciate that some are more programmed to be gay than others? It isn't terribly black and white. However, if you are overwhelmingly attracted to one gender and not the other, then it isn't really a choice, is it? I've had numerous opportunities to experiment with same sex and I can honestly say that saying "OK" wasn't a choice. My external response has always been "thank you, but no", but my internal response is "Blecch!!". Other people are obviously more open minded about it, and that is just fine.

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by daveId

I've had friends who "experimented", but I don't consider them gay. Certainly you can appreciate that some are more programmed to be gay than others? It isn't terribly black and white. However, if you are overwhelmingly attracted to one gender and not the other, then it isn't really a choice, is it? I've had numerous opportunities to experiment with same sex and I can honestly say that saying "OK" wasn't a choice. My external response has always been "thank you, but no", but my internal response is "Blecch!!". Other people are obviously more open minded about it, and that is just fine.

It can just as easily be debated that people with more sophisticated intellect and who are comfortable with their bodies can imagine themselves in a situation with either sex. While inhibitions and mental programming do have something to do with it, I still hold that the whole thing can be turned into an intellectual process.

There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by Lukecash12

...While inhibitions and mental programming do have something to do with it, I still hold that the whole thing can be turned into an intellectual process.

That is not for you to decide for other people however. The cost of reprogramming in many cases is not/has not been justified. You might as well say jumping off a building is a choice, and if that is where this is headed then there is no point in making a distinction about gayness being a choice.

There is no sane rationale for continuing to single out gay people for that matter, if you are looking for an intellectual exercise that is. It just smacks of persecution, or proselytizing or some other historically immoral and artificial divider based on someone elses dogma.

You can try to reprogram someone via "intellectual" means, so that they change their behavior, but that isn't really the same as a choice. You have removed the individual from the equation by that time. If you threaten them with eternal damnation then that is just simple coercion, again not choice.

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Why should you care if someone is a homosexual? They are still human. Choice or environment it still doesn't really matter to you at all. Whoopty-Doo! Someone likes the same sex! How Dare They! I should try and fix them even if I can't, they don't want me to, and/or they have no real effect on my life at all!!!

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by daveId

That is not for you to decide for other people however. The cost of reprogramming in many cases is not/has not been justified. You might as well say jumping off a building is a choice, and if that is where this is headed then there is no point in making a distinction about gayness being a choice.

There is no sane rationale for continuing to single out gay people for that matter, if you are looking for an intellectual exercise that is. It just smacks of persecution, or proselytizing or some other historically immoral and artificial divider based on someone elses dogma.

You can try to reprogram someone via "intellectual" means, so that they change their behavior, but that isn't really the same as a choice. You have removed the individual from the equation by that time. If you threaten them with eternal damnation then that is just simple coercion, again not choice.

You seem to be headed wherever your emotions want to lead you. So, I'd like to remind you that the issue here is whether or not sexuality is a choice. I pointed out that with our current resources, either of our standpoints can be argued for with comparable rationale.

However, there is some on-topic argumentation in your third paragraph here, so I will address that:

You failed to make a proper distinction in that you assumed the choice had to be made as a result of being forced by intellectualism. I in no way referred to programming people, but I did refer to my own process and can cite the same general idea in a lot of people who switched in preference from homo to hetero. Seeing as I was the example being cited, and you weren't told of any outside force that coerced me into changing, your argumentation there is unsupported by another standard as well.

There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by Lukecash12

You seem to be headed wherever your emotions want to lead you.

I don't think there is anything else for us to discuss. It seems because of your agenda you cannot concede even the simplest points, it is like debating with Jerry Falwell reincarnate. You can't choose to make someone else make it a choice. If someone is physically repulsed by chocolate, but loves Cinnamon, then who the hell cares about marginalizing their preference by insisting that they can learn to choose chocolate "If they really wanted to"? They don't want to so it isn't a choice. I cant think of anything else to say to you.

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Originally Posted by daveId

I don't think there is anything else for us to discuss. It seems because of your agenda you cannot concede even the simplest points, it is like debating with Jerry Falwell reincarnate. You can't choose to make someone else make it a choice. If someone is physically repulsed by chocolate, but loves Cinnamon, then who the hell cares about marginalizing their preference by insisting that they can learn to choose chocolate "If they really wanted to"? They don't want to so it isn't a choice. I cant think of anything else to say to you.

Sir, the question is not whether or not they want to choose hetero. It is whether or not they can choose hetero.

There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance.Nahj ul-Balāgha by Ali bin Abu-Talib

Re: 1 vs 1 homosexuality w/poll

Sir, the question is not whether or not they want to choose hetero. It is whether or not they can choose hetero.

Any one can choose to have hetero sex.. that however does not make them hetero.. that's just hetero behavior.. not the actual sexuality..

Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin"Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean