Forget the GoEs (- or +) they are just opinions regardless of any directive saying otherwise.
What should be done is let the judges handle the whole thing (get rid of the Technical Panel)

Let the element scores range from 0-10 and then multiplied by the base value for a particular element.
Then put the step sequence in the PC scores. All this would be in line with other judged Sports.

By and large, the PC scores are more opinion than quantitative. Like the 6.0 System, one man's feast is another man's poison. I would just suggest that an explanation should accompany the PC scores after the placements have been made. I am a firm believer in the right of the fan to know what's going on.

If quality is a multiplier, then Stoijko will even be more pissed off.

Ant? How can you say 3A-2T is easier than 3-3 when many (lady) skaters have done the latter and a tiny handful the former? And as for tacking on the 2T - correct me if I'm wrong since I"m not a technical person, but aren't skaters often omitting to tack it on because they lack speed or the first jump wasn't landed quite right? I don't think it's to be minimized... esp. after a 3A!

I think Stojko is helping to focus a debate, so why the problem with his speaking up? He seems to enjoy being in the thick of controversy. Not every former champion would be up for that.

I totally agree. I also agree with 2 other posters saying that the whole issue is pointless since both Kim and Asada know well the base values of their jumps prior to competing at these Olympics. I don't mind the whole point system needs to changed for next season.

If that was the case, Kim should not get huge GOE on her triple triple combo. Her 3T was barely rotated.
Her flip was also barely rotated. NBC showed a super slowmo at the end.
Both girls barely rotated their jumps, just one get bigger GOE?

Not saying that *was* the reason, saying I think it *should* be part of the CoP: if the jump is so close to being underrotated, the technical specialist is not sure until the jump is reviewd at least once and maybe more, it shouldn't be eligible for + GOE.

Where in my post did i say that judges don't ever compare skaters when scoring?

What annoys me a little is when people write strong opinions on judges and how they judged a competition or applied the rules, when the poster then admits that they've "heard" something about the rules rather than read them....how good an opinion is it if it's based on heresay about the rules and the person hasn't even read the rules for themselves? How do they know that the heresay about the rules is even correct?

Ant

Well you did say the judges do not compare skaters to others, or even the skater to themselves right? So it seems like you are saying they don't make comparisons. Anyways, I think you're overreacting in a way. So people can't make some opinions about the judging unless they read the whole manuel of rules? :sheesh: BTW I said the judges MIGHT not they were definitely judging that way or anything. If you don't like my opinion, you can just ignore~~~but I and others have the right to make one right?

Not saying that *was* the reason, saying I think it *should* be part of the CoP: if the jump is so close to being underrotated, the technical specialist is not sure until the jump is reviewd at least once and maybe more, it shouldn't be eligible for + GOE.

None of Yuna's jumps were close to being under-rotated. She also has great speed, ice coverage, height, smooth exit, all of which is the reason she gets GOE points. Once again :

So people can't make some opinions about the judging unless they read the whole manuel of rules?

How can you critique the judging if you don't understand the rules? You can say, "personally, I preferred so-and-so" (you absolutely have the right to your opinion of whose skating you appreciated more) but to critique the judging without knowing the rules is like me trying to critique a dentist just because I have teeth. Besides, it's not some giant manual and anyone can download it from the ISU website, and the ISU has done a good job of trying to make it as easy to understand as possible. If you are truly interested in skating and want to be a knowledgeable fan, you should absolutely read the CoP. Often, if I'm watching a comp, I keep my copy handy. Makes me less outraged if I *think* one skater was better than another if I can glance at my CoP and realize something like, a 3 ax-2toe is worth less than a 3lz-3toe.

Figure88: not sure why you're quoting me there since I'd be in agreement with what you have posted there, and I never said either of them underrotated. I watched on NBC which did a great job on the slow replay and clearly showed both skaters had clean jumps. I, personally, prefer Yu-Na's jumps if you were looking for my official position.

Okay, haven't seen Asada yet, but Kim was very on and hard to imagine much that could beat that. Jumps were all A-OK, high and fast in and out. She doesn't do bendy girl spirals but they're fast and she has wonderful lobey edges (also in her footwork). Also the spins, I can imagine they're not everybody's taste, but they're fast and designed to maximize features.

Anyone got a link to Asada?

Originally Posted by Sk8n Mama

You can say, "personally, I preferred so-and-so" (you absolutely have the right to your opinion of whose skating you appreciated more) but to critique the judging without knowing the rules is like me trying to critique a dentist just because I have teeth.

That's an important thing that too many fans forget too often (I'm just as guilty of this as anybody else). Let's take Euro men. If I were a judge, there was no question that Plushenko won. As a viewer and fan I enjoyed Lambiel's performance far more. In this case (not having seen Asada yet) I think Kim did a great job in both areas. I found it very entertaining and enjoyable and as a judge it would get pretty high marks.

How can you critique the judging if you don't understand the rules? You can say, "personally, I preferred so-and-so" (you absolutely have the right to your opinion of whose skating you appreciated more) but to critique the judging without knowing the rules is like me trying to critique a dentist just because I have teeth. Besides, it's not some giant manual and anyone can download it from the ISU website, and the ISU has done a good job of trying to make it as easy to understand as possible. If you are truly interested in skating and want to be a knowledgeable fan, you should absolutely read the CoP. Often, if I'm watching a comp, I keep my copy handy. Makes me less outraged if I *think* one skater was better than another if I can glance at my CoP and realize something like, a 3 ax-2toe is worth less than a 3lz-3toe.

Figure88: not sure why you're quoting me there since I'd be in agreement with what you have posted there, and I never said either of them underrotated. I watched on NBC which did a great job on the slow replay and clearly showed both skaters had clean jumps. I, personally, prefer Yu-Na's jumps if you were looking for my official position.

I don't understand why you guys are harsh on me just for an opinion. I don't even think I was making a critique of the judging, because they were mostly assumptions based on what I heard from a friend who has read the CoP in detail regarding the GOE. I have read segments of the CoP (not all of it), so I am not going to say I am an expert on it. If they were wrong, you can point it out to me but you don't have to make it sound like that I have no right to say anything just because I am may not be as knowledgeable. And the dentist analogy doesn't work.

Okay, haven't seen Asada yet, but Kim was very on and hard to imagine much that could beat that. Jumps were all A-OK, high and fast in and out. She doesn't do bendy girl spirals but they're fast and she has wonderful lobey edges (also in her footwork). Also the spins, I can imagine they're not everybody's taste, but they're fast and designed to maximize features.

Elvis should just shut up, at least until the Games are over. Why is he so angry all of a sudden, anyway? My guess is because he's not successful in his own life right now.. although that's just a guess since I really don't know much about his life

I just watched the ladies' highlights on Eurosport, and Chris & Simon essentially said the same thing Elvis did: Yu-Na was clearly the best, but Mao was also very strong and 3A combos should be worth more - as should quads and quad combos in the men's. It's not an unreasonable argument, although Elvis could do a better job of presenting it.

That's how I feel about the situation as well. This being said I think you could argue that 3/3 rules should be changed to award harder 3/3s. I mean Yu-na didn't get any extra base value points for doing a 3lutz/3toe instead of a 3flip/3toe. (That's ridiculous) But the scores between Mao and Yu-na should be closer. I suspect the ISU is going to take action about the value of the quad and triple axel after the season is over. I think maybe they could reward harder combos too.

I don't understand why you guys are harsh on me just for an opinion. I don't even think I was making a critique of the judging, because they were mostly assumptions based on what I heard from a friend who has read the CoP in detail regarding the GOE. I have read segments of the CoP (not all of it), so I am not going to say I am an expert on it. If they were wrong, you can point it out to me but you don't have to make it sound like that I have no right to say anything just because I am may not be as knowledgeable.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion. In fact, I clearly stated that you are welcome to an *opinion* but you must understand that there are people at GS with an excellent grasp on the CoP. In fact there are people here who judge figure skating and have been tested on their knowledge of the CoP. It's insulting to those people to be argued with by someone who admits that their knowldege of the CoP is mostly limited to what they've been told by others. It's not just you miki88. At the Olympics, everyone watches figure skating and thinks they know who should and should not win. The fact is, under the CoP, it's not easy (maybe not possible) to do that anymore. I competed in skating for many years and judged (prior to CoP) and there are things I miss that now effect the placement. Often, when I go back and read the protocols carefully, I get a better understanding of what happened. Case in point: Belbin and Agosto's twizzles in the FD. Just watching the event, I felt the Russians were held up, but when I read the protocols, I have to admit that I missed the mistake on the twizzles.

Again, enjoy watching the skating and discussing it. Have an opinion. But since you admit that you have a weaker grasp of the CoP, be willing to understand that others do have a strong grasp on the CoP and that makes their opinion an educated one.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion. In fact, I clearly stated that you are welcome to an *opinion* but you must understand that there are people at GS with an excellent grasp on the CoP. In fact there are people here who judge figure skating and have been tested on their knowledge of the CoP. It's insulting to those people to be argued with by someone who admits that their knowldege of the CoP is mostly limited to what they've been told by others. It's not just you miki88. At the Olympics, everyone watches figure skating and thinks they know who should and should not win. The fact is, under the CoP, it's not easy (maybe not possible) to do that anymore. I competed in skating for many years and judged (prior to CoP) and there are things I miss that now effect the placement. Often, when I go back and read the protocols carefully, I get a better understanding of what happened. Case in point: Belbin and Agosto's twizzles in the FD. Just watching the event, I felt the Russians were held up, but when I read the protocols, I have to admit that I missed the mistake on the twizzles.

Again, enjoy watching the skating and discussing it. Have an opinion. But since you admit that you have a weaker grasp of the CoP, be willing to understand that others do have a strong grasp on the CoP and that makes their opinion an educated one.

And, here I said I would not get sucked into this debate....*sigh*

Okay. I will be more careful from now on. But I just want to know do height and ice coverage count toward GOE ? (that's what my friend told me).