Mrs. Betty Williams interview

This is an interview with Mrs. Betty Williams, younger sister of
Fred L. Shuttlesworth. This interview was conducted on December
28, 1988, at her home in Birmingham, Alabama, by Andrew M. Manis.
ANDREW MANIS: Ms. Williams, you have mentioned to me that you
are fifteen years younger than Reverend Shuttlesworth but I am
still wondering if perhaps you didn't experience many of the
stories about his growing up. Do you recall any particular
stories about episodes in his life as a youngster growing up here
in Oxmoor?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No not really because when I remember him he was
just like grown. I used to visit and be around a lot during that
time. But when I grew up, see I graduated in 1955 from high
school. I left and got married. I went to Cleveland, Ohio and
stayed up there a couple of years. Then I was back home again.
Let's see, that was in 55 -- 57. Okay I came home. I stayed for
a while. I guess about maybe five or six years and then back off
to Philadelphia. During that time I would visit him when he was
staying at North Birmingham across from the church. I used to go
over there once in a while or go to church every now and then.
It really wasn't too much that I knew about him.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you have any memories about those visits when
you went to see him.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, no t really. I used to just go over there
and be around him and his family.
1
ANDREW MANIS: Why was that so important to you? Why did you
enjoy that?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, just because I was part of his family. I
just enjoyed being around. He was nice to be around with his
wife and little kids.
ANDREW MANIS: Was this after he began to get involved in Civil
Rights?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, really, I remember I used to go around
before they started this. Then after I went around t oo, for a
while. I always did like that. There were a lot of ties. I
canlt remember too much.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you have any ideas about who were the biggest
influences on Reverend Shuttlesworth?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No. I guess I was too young, really. I really
don't know. I wasn't around him too much.
ANDREW MANIS: What about your mother? Tell me about her in
terms of some kind of -- what kind of mother was she?
strict?
Was she
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah, she was a strict strong woman. She always
have been like that. Sometimes I would see her sit down and talk
about Fred. He had a lot of devil in him when he was small. He
was really -- he wasn't a bad child but he was just devilish. He
got in a lot of devil all the time. He stayed in a lot of devil.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you remember any of the stories which
illustrated this devilment that you mention?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, I guess little things that children will
2
do, you know. She had to stay on him. Some of the things I
wouldn't like to repeat. (Laughs) He was just devilish really.
Mischievous.
ANDREW MANIS: He has told me on occasion that she was insistent
that you would go to church.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, we had to go to church every Sunday and
be at Sunday School. If we weren't fully dressed we had to dress
on our way to Sunday School. We would always go the back way.
You know we had a back way we could go to church. We would go
through the woods. Sometimes with our clothes in our hands
dressing all the way to church.
ANDREW MANIS: St. Matthews?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Right. And we would have to get off. Because
if we didn't she was going to get us off.
ANDREW MANIS: Did she generally go to church with you?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, she would send us some time and then
she would come on behind us. But that was our mom.
ANDREW MANIS: Did she have any other particular laws around the
house that everybody had to adhere to, or did she have different
laws for different ones?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, everybody had something different to do
around the house. Everybody had different chores to do. Mamma
worked most of the time. Mamma worked a lot of time.
ANDREW MANIS: What did she do in her jobs?
BETTY WILLIAMS: She worked in houses. Cleaning houses. She
worked very very hard. You know she would be tired when she came
3
· in and you know we had to have our work and everything done when
she got in. You know children l ike t o p l ay . But when we would
see mamma coming we had t o r un and see what we had t o d o . She ' d
s t ay on our case . She was j ust like a man. We got i nto a l o t of
t rouble and she woul d whip us l ike a man .
ANDREW MANIS: What we r e your chores?
BETTY WILLIAMS: We ll, by me being t he baby , I really didn ' t have
a whol e l ot. My sister down here , now she was most over me . I
had to sweep u p , sweep the porches , sweep the house , wash dishes ,
and maybe i ron my c l othes. But t he rest of them, they had t o
wash in t ubs. Oh , we had to car ry water , too.
ANDREW MANIS: From a well nearby or i nto the house?
BETTY WILLIAMS; We had to carry water from out of the bottom
down at my grandfather 1s . There was a path down there . We used
to get water from there a l ot of times and bring it up here t o
wash. Then we had to bring i t up here . They had a pump and we
hauled water from up there a lot of times and wash in the tub and
boil the clothes . I t was kind of rough.
ANDREW MANIS: What did you all do for fun? Surely you played
around when you were supposed to be working but what about when
i t was actual play t i me? What did you all do?
BETTY WILLIAMS: We ll, nothing t oo much really. Sometimes we
v i s i ted our kin people . We mostly stayed in the yard around. I
was kind of Tom Boyish. I ' d like to s t ay in the woods . I ' d be
riding t rees down and ride on the wagon . We had made some wagons
to ride down the hill in the woods with. We d i dn 1t go t oo much
4
really.
ANDREW MANIS: Were there church activities other than Sundays?
What was it like to go to your church?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Just like any other church. We always had to
go. We had to participate in activities in the church, programs
and choir. We had to go to choir rehearsals. I think it was one
night a week we would go to choir rehearsal. When we had revival
we would have to go every night. We went to sing in the choir.
It just seemed to really get like it was our duty to the church.
ANDREW MANIS: Refresh my memory in terms of how many children
grew up in this house. Your brother Fred is the oldest?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Nine.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you list the children in the order of their
age?
BETTY WILLIAMS: At least the names. I couldn't tell you their
age.
ANDREW MANIS: Okay, will give me their names.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Do you want the oldest to the youngest or the
youngest to the oldest?
ANDREW MANIS: Oldest to youngest.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Fred's the oldest, okay? Then Cleola Willis,
then Eugene Shuttlesworth, then Eula Mae, then Ernestine Grimes,
Awilda Reid, then Clifton Kern Shuttlesworth, then Truzella
Gaziere, then Betty Williams.
ANDREW MANIS:How many of those children were here at the same
time? When you were growing up, you say you were the youngest,
5
how many were living in the house? Was there ever a time when
all nine of you were in the same house?
BETTY WILLIAMS: You mean all living together? Not that I knew
of. I can't remember really. I'll say five.
ANDREW MANIS: What was your father like?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I never did know my father. He died when I was
three years old. I don't remember him.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me move to the point when you can begin to
have some recollections of Fred. Did you ever visit him when he
and the family were living in Mobile?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, we went down there occasionally.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you remember anything about those visits?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, no, they was just regular visits.
ANDREW MANIS: Were there special occasions when they would take
you there?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Not really. We'd go down there and visit.
Sometimes my mamma would go and I guess by me being young I would
go with her a lot of times.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you remember any particular things happening on
those visits or any conversations between your mother and your
older brother?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, because the children would be outside and
mamma and them would be talking.
ANDREW MANIS: What about when they moved to Selma?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, I didn't do very much visiting down there
in Selma.
6
ANDREW MANIS: You might have been up North at that time.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Probably. I think I went to Selma just once.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, in 1953 he came back to Birmingham and began
to be the pastor over at Bethel. What did you think about him
being a preacher? Was that something that did you like the
idea of him being a preacher, or not like it, or did it matter?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't know. It was okay to me. Yeah, I
enjoyed him being a preacher really. I just didn't know he could
ever be a preacher.
ANDREW MANIS: Because of all that devilment you mentioned?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah, my mamma said she knew he was going to be
something but she didn't know what. (Laughs.)
ANDREW MANIS: Did she have any preferences for what he grew up
to be? Did she ever mention that to you?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't think she did.
ANDREW MANIS: Did your mother, well, I guess the best way to ask
this would be to say how do you think your mother influenced the
children? Specifically, how she may have influenced Fred?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, I tell you, my mamma has always been a
Christian lady. She has always been active in the church socials
and everything. She was always involved and she was the type of
woman that I think you would call really Christian. She would
visit the sick. She was a church-going lady. She always stayed
in the church. We would always go too. She really was a
Christian.
ANDREW MANIS:And that influenced Fred to be a preacher? Do you
7
think that had any influence on his decision to be a preacher?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't know, maybe.
ANDREW MANIS: Looking back on what you know of him, is there
anything in growing up here and having the mother you had living
in this setting with people around him, is there anything in that
that you think made it likely that would make him become a
fighter for Civil Rights?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't know, I guess after his kids grew up , I
just really don't know.
ANDREW MANIS: People have said he was a hard man for a hard
town. Maybe you've heard people say that about him. What made
him a hard man?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I guess it was because of the way some people
would treat him, you know. My mamma had a hard time when we were
growing up anyway.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you tell me about that?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Okay, there was nine of us and my mamma had to
work. She had to do a lot of things she didn't want to do, you
know, to survive. Everybody just ain't gonna treat you right.
You know, even when people don't treat you right, you still got
to keep on going. Things like this make you think. I guess
that's what made him a fighter, along with a lot of things he had
to do, too, had to go through with.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any conversations where he
explained why he was so convinced that he should strike out
against segregation?
8
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, not really, I never ever did really just sit
down and have a conversation with him about it. I never was
around him too much.
ANDREW MANIS: Are there any particular incidents in your life
growing up here when you encountered whites who were racists?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you recall any of those and tell me about some
of those incidents?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I had a son who was born in Cleveland, Ohio. He
was here staying with mamma for a while. She tried to get him in
hospital. They told him he wasn't a citizen. He was a citizen.
I had to come home to see about it. I tried to put him in the
hospital they, I guess by me being a Shuttlesworth, there was a
lot of prejudice. They said, "Well, he's not a citizen here,
you're going to have to take him back and put him in the
hospital." I said, "naw." So I took him on to a private doctor
and had a private doctor wait on him. I went to University
Hospital up here. This man asked me "You're not any relationship
to the Shuttlesworth?" I said, "Yes, I'm his sister." He said,
"Well, you're not as tough as he is, are you?" I said, "I don't
know." So I've had hard ways to go too, on account of that but
it really didn't bother me.
ANDREW MANIS: What did, in that particular instance, what
happened?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, nothing really, he just went on and waited
on him. That was all.
9
· ANDREW MANIS: How did that make you feel?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, I was all right because, see, I knew what
was happening. I was looking forward to that "Are you any
relationship to the Shuttlesworth?" I said, "Yes, he's my
brother." They really didn't bother me.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you ever hear people say things more than just
asking the question of whether or not you were related to him or
did you ever hear people express hateful things about him?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, people would look at me and they would
have whispers or something like that. I didn't pay no attention.
They'd say "That's the Shuttlesworth's sister," you know.
Whisper and go on.
ANDREW MANIS: Did it make you feel proud?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, sort of.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you ever receive any threats because you were
his sister?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No.
ANDREW MANIS: What about your mother?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, they used to call up here and do a lot
of threatening even when mamma had this fence put around. So if
anybody come around this fence, they're going to have a hard
time. People started threatening her pretty often. It didn't
bother her.
ANDREW MANIS: Did they calIon the telephone?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Urn-hum.
ANDREW MANIS: Were you ever standing around when the phone rang
10
and it was a threatening call or an abusive caller?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah, maybe once or twice.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you ever remember any of her responses?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah.
ANDREW MANIS: From what your brother tells me, she was a rather
feisty l ady . Do you recall any particular reactions on her part
that you would care to share with us?
BETTY WILLIAMS: She'd tell 'em to come on, she'd blow 'em sky
high if they come inside this fence. That's why she really put
.the fence around the yard. She might have said it a little
rougher but I don't remember the exact words that she used.
ANDREW MANIS But apparently she was not hesitant about giving
them a piece of her mind.
BETTY WILLIAMS: My mamma didn't care. She was a strong woman.
She always has been strong .
ANDREW MANIS: It sounds like she is a very strong woman and it
also sounds like your brother took after her in many ways. What
ways do you think he took after his mother?
BETTY WILLIAMS: He was a fighter like my mother was. Everything
that she would do she went all the way out to see it to the end.
She wasn't a pushover I'll tell you that.
ANDREW MANIS: Your mother worked so hard. Maybe she didn't have
time to tell you a lot of stories but did she tell you a lot of
stories about her growing up?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, she really didn't. Mamma worked hard. She
wouldn't work in the house. We had fields. I would help work in
11
.
the fields and other peoples fields. We had fields and things.
My mamma worked hard all her life mostly.
ANDREW MANIS: I want you to change subjects a little here. How
well did you know Ruby Shuttlesworth?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I really didn't know her too well. But I used
to be around her. I liked her. She was nice. Real nice.
ANDREW MANIS: Was she well accepted in the family?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh yes, she was accepted.
ANDREW MANIS: Were you ever close enough to the situation to
observe how the pressure affected her -- the pressure of being
related to the Shuttlesworth?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, not really. I really wasn't around her
too much. I never was around the grownups too much.
ANDREW MANIS: Were you living in Birmingham when their home was
bombed in 1956? You donlt remember? What did your mother think
of her sonls activities? Did she ever talk about his working
with Civil Rights?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, she didnlt talk too much about that. I
think my mamma thought he would always end up getting hurt. She
didnlt want him to get hurt. But he had to do what he had to do.
ANDREW MANIS: Did she ever try to talk him out of it?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, I donlt think she did.
ANDREW MANIS: How would you express your relationship or your
feelings about your brother. What kind of person is he as you
•
observed? Is there something about him that you think is extra
special?
12
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think he's special. He is a beautiful
person and he is nice to be around. Of course he is always
kidding and laughing. He kids me when he is around. I go to
Cincinnatti pretty regular. Sometimes I stay with him and we sit
around and talk.
ANDREW MANIS: What do you talk about when you are with him now
that you ar both adults? You don't get to see each other that
often. When you do visit and you're not here. When you're
there, what do you talk about?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, just sit and talk about things that happened
at the house when I was a little girl. About the people in the
community where we grew up. That's about it. How's everybody
doing? We enjoy one another. We go out and eat. Just sit there
and talk or maybe watch T.V. together. And my son, he's a
preacher now and he goes to his church. He's got his license and
he belongs to brother's church. Because of him.
ANDREW MANIS: What is his name?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Dennis Webb,
ANDREW MANIS: There were some young ministers in the church who
were handling a youth service the Sunday I was there. I don't
remember any names but maybe your son was involved.
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't know. He just started preaching. I
think it was the first Sunday in September. We all was up there.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think your brother had any influence on
your son going into the ministry?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I think he did. He liked being around brother a
13
lot. He used to work with my brother.
ANDREW MANIS: Have things changed around here a lot since you
were growing up?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Like what?
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I am leaving it open ended and ask you in
what ways things have changed.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, since we grew up, well, yeah they've
changed. Nothing remains the same but I think that things are
even the environment -- the older you get you grow more into
maturity as you grow older and now a l ot of things that I realize
now that I didn't realize years and years ago . We have a
beautiful family, now, all of us, we stick toge ther. We are
closer now. We understand one another. We love each other.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think what your brother did in Birmingham
made very much difference?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Not really, you mean as a family?
ANDREW MANIS: Not necessarily to your family, but do you think
it made much difference for blacks?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, it did. A l ot of people don't know
how to appreciate things you know and even as a whole a lot of us
black f olks don't stick together like we should.
ANDREW MANIS: How do you feel the second and third week of
January every year when things begin to turn and focus on Martin
Luther King? How does the King National Holiday effect you?
BETTY WILLIAMS: It doesn't bother me. It really don't. K just
feel like, well, brother didn't get justice f o r what he did and I
14
think he stood for more than King did. He got a holiday and I
think he should really have a holiday too.
ANDREW MANIS: Does all of the hoopla, if you will, over King
basically make you feel cynical or bitter that your brother
didn't get that much attention.
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, not really, but what he did is there and, it
doesn't bother me at all.
ANDREW MANIS: What do I need to know in order to understand your
brother? Is there one or two things that I really have to know
in order to understand him?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't think so. He's not hard, really, to
understand. He's a person just for right.
ANDREW MANIS: That's it? I appreciate your time. If there is
one last thing you can add to this I will give you one last
chance . Is there anything else that I need to know in order to
wri t e this book?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, not r eally , I'm sorry. I wish I could have
told more.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I probably bored you with these questi ons
but I appreciate your taking the time to help me.
15

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Holding.Institution

Birmingham Public Library (Alabama)

Full Text

This is an interview with Mrs. Betty Williams, younger sister of
Fred L. Shuttlesworth. This interview was conducted on December
28, 1988, at her home in Birmingham, Alabama, by Andrew M. Manis.
ANDREW MANIS: Ms. Williams, you have mentioned to me that you
are fifteen years younger than Reverend Shuttlesworth but I am
still wondering if perhaps you didn't experience many of the
stories about his growing up. Do you recall any particular
stories about episodes in his life as a youngster growing up here
in Oxmoor?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No not really because when I remember him he was
just like grown. I used to visit and be around a lot during that
time. But when I grew up, see I graduated in 1955 from high
school. I left and got married. I went to Cleveland, Ohio and
stayed up there a couple of years. Then I was back home again.
Let's see, that was in 55 -- 57. Okay I came home. I stayed for
a while. I guess about maybe five or six years and then back off
to Philadelphia. During that time I would visit him when he was
staying at North Birmingham across from the church. I used to go
over there once in a while or go to church every now and then.
It really wasn't too much that I knew about him.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you have any memories about those visits when
you went to see him.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, no t really. I used to just go over there
and be around him and his family.
1
ANDREW MANIS: Why was that so important to you? Why did you
enjoy that?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, just because I was part of his family. I
just enjoyed being around. He was nice to be around with his
wife and little kids.
ANDREW MANIS: Was this after he began to get involved in Civil
Rights?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, really, I remember I used to go around
before they started this. Then after I went around t oo, for a
while. I always did like that. There were a lot of ties. I
canlt remember too much.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you have any ideas about who were the biggest
influences on Reverend Shuttlesworth?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No. I guess I was too young, really. I really
don't know. I wasn't around him too much.
ANDREW MANIS: What about your mother? Tell me about her in
terms of some kind of -- what kind of mother was she?
strict?
Was she
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah, she was a strict strong woman. She always
have been like that. Sometimes I would see her sit down and talk
about Fred. He had a lot of devil in him when he was small. He
was really -- he wasn't a bad child but he was just devilish. He
got in a lot of devil all the time. He stayed in a lot of devil.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you remember any of the stories which
illustrated this devilment that you mention?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, I guess little things that children will
2
do, you know. She had to stay on him. Some of the things I
wouldn't like to repeat. (Laughs) He was just devilish really.
Mischievous.
ANDREW MANIS: He has told me on occasion that she was insistent
that you would go to church.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, we had to go to church every Sunday and
be at Sunday School. If we weren't fully dressed we had to dress
on our way to Sunday School. We would always go the back way.
You know we had a back way we could go to church. We would go
through the woods. Sometimes with our clothes in our hands
dressing all the way to church.
ANDREW MANIS: St. Matthews?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Right. And we would have to get off. Because
if we didn't she was going to get us off.
ANDREW MANIS: Did she generally go to church with you?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, she would send us some time and then
she would come on behind us. But that was our mom.
ANDREW MANIS: Did she have any other particular laws around the
house that everybody had to adhere to, or did she have different
laws for different ones?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, everybody had something different to do
around the house. Everybody had different chores to do. Mamma
worked most of the time. Mamma worked a lot of time.
ANDREW MANIS: What did she do in her jobs?
BETTY WILLIAMS: She worked in houses. Cleaning houses. She
worked very very hard. You know she would be tired when she came
3
· in and you know we had to have our work and everything done when
she got in. You know children l ike t o p l ay . But when we would
see mamma coming we had t o r un and see what we had t o d o . She ' d
s t ay on our case . She was j ust like a man. We got i nto a l o t of
t rouble and she woul d whip us l ike a man .
ANDREW MANIS: What we r e your chores?
BETTY WILLIAMS: We ll, by me being t he baby , I really didn ' t have
a whol e l ot. My sister down here , now she was most over me . I
had to sweep u p , sweep the porches , sweep the house , wash dishes ,
and maybe i ron my c l othes. But t he rest of them, they had t o
wash in t ubs. Oh , we had to car ry water , too.
ANDREW MANIS: From a well nearby or i nto the house?
BETTY WILLIAMS; We had to carry water from out of the bottom
down at my grandfather 1s . There was a path down there . We used
to get water from there a l ot of times and bring it up here t o
wash. Then we had to bring i t up here . They had a pump and we
hauled water from up there a lot of times and wash in the tub and
boil the clothes . I t was kind of rough.
ANDREW MANIS: What did you all do for fun? Surely you played
around when you were supposed to be working but what about when
i t was actual play t i me? What did you all do?
BETTY WILLIAMS: We ll, nothing t oo much really. Sometimes we
v i s i ted our kin people . We mostly stayed in the yard around. I
was kind of Tom Boyish. I ' d like to s t ay in the woods . I ' d be
riding t rees down and ride on the wagon . We had made some wagons
to ride down the hill in the woods with. We d i dn 1t go t oo much
4
really.
ANDREW MANIS: Were there church activities other than Sundays?
What was it like to go to your church?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Just like any other church. We always had to
go. We had to participate in activities in the church, programs
and choir. We had to go to choir rehearsals. I think it was one
night a week we would go to choir rehearsal. When we had revival
we would have to go every night. We went to sing in the choir.
It just seemed to really get like it was our duty to the church.
ANDREW MANIS: Refresh my memory in terms of how many children
grew up in this house. Your brother Fred is the oldest?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Nine.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you list the children in the order of their
age?
BETTY WILLIAMS: At least the names. I couldn't tell you their
age.
ANDREW MANIS: Okay, will give me their names.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Do you want the oldest to the youngest or the
youngest to the oldest?
ANDREW MANIS: Oldest to youngest.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Fred's the oldest, okay? Then Cleola Willis,
then Eugene Shuttlesworth, then Eula Mae, then Ernestine Grimes,
Awilda Reid, then Clifton Kern Shuttlesworth, then Truzella
Gaziere, then Betty Williams.
ANDREW MANIS:How many of those children were here at the same
time? When you were growing up, you say you were the youngest,
5
how many were living in the house? Was there ever a time when
all nine of you were in the same house?
BETTY WILLIAMS: You mean all living together? Not that I knew
of. I can't remember really. I'll say five.
ANDREW MANIS: What was your father like?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I never did know my father. He died when I was
three years old. I don't remember him.
ANDREW MANIS: Let me move to the point when you can begin to
have some recollections of Fred. Did you ever visit him when he
and the family were living in Mobile?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, we went down there occasionally.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you remember anything about those visits?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, no, they was just regular visits.
ANDREW MANIS: Were there special occasions when they would take
you there?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Not really. We'd go down there and visit.
Sometimes my mamma would go and I guess by me being young I would
go with her a lot of times.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you remember any particular things happening on
those visits or any conversations between your mother and your
older brother?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, because the children would be outside and
mamma and them would be talking.
ANDREW MANIS: What about when they moved to Selma?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, I didn't do very much visiting down there
in Selma.
6
ANDREW MANIS: You might have been up North at that time.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Probably. I think I went to Selma just once.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, in 1953 he came back to Birmingham and began
to be the pastor over at Bethel. What did you think about him
being a preacher? Was that something that did you like the
idea of him being a preacher, or not like it, or did it matter?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't know. It was okay to me. Yeah, I
enjoyed him being a preacher really. I just didn't know he could
ever be a preacher.
ANDREW MANIS: Because of all that devilment you mentioned?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah, my mamma said she knew he was going to be
something but she didn't know what. (Laughs.)
ANDREW MANIS: Did she have any preferences for what he grew up
to be? Did she ever mention that to you?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't think she did.
ANDREW MANIS: Did your mother, well, I guess the best way to ask
this would be to say how do you think your mother influenced the
children? Specifically, how she may have influenced Fred?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, I tell you, my mamma has always been a
Christian lady. She has always been active in the church socials
and everything. She was always involved and she was the type of
woman that I think you would call really Christian. She would
visit the sick. She was a church-going lady. She always stayed
in the church. We would always go too. She really was a
Christian.
ANDREW MANIS:And that influenced Fred to be a preacher? Do you
7
think that had any influence on his decision to be a preacher?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't know, maybe.
ANDREW MANIS: Looking back on what you know of him, is there
anything in growing up here and having the mother you had living
in this setting with people around him, is there anything in that
that you think made it likely that would make him become a
fighter for Civil Rights?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't know, I guess after his kids grew up , I
just really don't know.
ANDREW MANIS: People have said he was a hard man for a hard
town. Maybe you've heard people say that about him. What made
him a hard man?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I guess it was because of the way some people
would treat him, you know. My mamma had a hard time when we were
growing up anyway.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you tell me about that?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Okay, there was nine of us and my mamma had to
work. She had to do a lot of things she didn't want to do, you
know, to survive. Everybody just ain't gonna treat you right.
You know, even when people don't treat you right, you still got
to keep on going. Things like this make you think. I guess
that's what made him a fighter, along with a lot of things he had
to do, too, had to go through with.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you recall any conversations where he
explained why he was so convinced that he should strike out
against segregation?
8
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, not really, I never ever did really just sit
down and have a conversation with him about it. I never was
around him too much.
ANDREW MANIS: Are there any particular incidents in your life
growing up here when you encountered whites who were racists?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.
ANDREW MANIS: Can you recall any of those and tell me about some
of those incidents?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I had a son who was born in Cleveland, Ohio. He
was here staying with mamma for a while. She tried to get him in
hospital. They told him he wasn't a citizen. He was a citizen.
I had to come home to see about it. I tried to put him in the
hospital they, I guess by me being a Shuttlesworth, there was a
lot of prejudice. They said, "Well, he's not a citizen here,
you're going to have to take him back and put him in the
hospital." I said, "naw." So I took him on to a private doctor
and had a private doctor wait on him. I went to University
Hospital up here. This man asked me "You're not any relationship
to the Shuttlesworth?" I said, "Yes, I'm his sister." He said,
"Well, you're not as tough as he is, are you?" I said, "I don't
know." So I've had hard ways to go too, on account of that but
it really didn't bother me.
ANDREW MANIS: What did, in that particular instance, what
happened?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, nothing really, he just went on and waited
on him. That was all.
9
· ANDREW MANIS: How did that make you feel?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, I was all right because, see, I knew what
was happening. I was looking forward to that "Are you any
relationship to the Shuttlesworth?" I said, "Yes, he's my
brother." They really didn't bother me.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you ever hear people say things more than just
asking the question of whether or not you were related to him or
did you ever hear people express hateful things about him?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, people would look at me and they would
have whispers or something like that. I didn't pay no attention.
They'd say "That's the Shuttlesworth's sister," you know.
Whisper and go on.
ANDREW MANIS: Did it make you feel proud?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, sort of.
ANDREW MANIS: Did you ever receive any threats because you were
his sister?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No.
ANDREW MANIS: What about your mother?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, they used to call up here and do a lot
of threatening even when mamma had this fence put around. So if
anybody come around this fence, they're going to have a hard
time. People started threatening her pretty often. It didn't
bother her.
ANDREW MANIS: Did they calIon the telephone?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Urn-hum.
ANDREW MANIS: Were you ever standing around when the phone rang
10
and it was a threatening call or an abusive caller?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah, maybe once or twice.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you ever remember any of her responses?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah.
ANDREW MANIS: From what your brother tells me, she was a rather
feisty l ady . Do you recall any particular reactions on her part
that you would care to share with us?
BETTY WILLIAMS: She'd tell 'em to come on, she'd blow 'em sky
high if they come inside this fence. That's why she really put
.the fence around the yard. She might have said it a little
rougher but I don't remember the exact words that she used.
ANDREW MANIS But apparently she was not hesitant about giving
them a piece of her mind.
BETTY WILLIAMS: My mamma didn't care. She was a strong woman.
She always has been strong .
ANDREW MANIS: It sounds like she is a very strong woman and it
also sounds like your brother took after her in many ways. What
ways do you think he took after his mother?
BETTY WILLIAMS: He was a fighter like my mother was. Everything
that she would do she went all the way out to see it to the end.
She wasn't a pushover I'll tell you that.
ANDREW MANIS: Your mother worked so hard. Maybe she didn't have
time to tell you a lot of stories but did she tell you a lot of
stories about her growing up?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, she really didn't. Mamma worked hard. She
wouldn't work in the house. We had fields. I would help work in
11
.
the fields and other peoples fields. We had fields and things.
My mamma worked hard all her life mostly.
ANDREW MANIS: I want you to change subjects a little here. How
well did you know Ruby Shuttlesworth?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I really didn't know her too well. But I used
to be around her. I liked her. She was nice. Real nice.
ANDREW MANIS: Was she well accepted in the family?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh yes, she was accepted.
ANDREW MANIS: Were you ever close enough to the situation to
observe how the pressure affected her -- the pressure of being
related to the Shuttlesworth?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, not really. I really wasn't around her
too much. I never was around the grownups too much.
ANDREW MANIS: Were you living in Birmingham when their home was
bombed in 1956? You donlt remember? What did your mother think
of her sonls activities? Did she ever talk about his working
with Civil Rights?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, she didnlt talk too much about that. I
think my mamma thought he would always end up getting hurt. She
didnlt want him to get hurt. But he had to do what he had to do.
ANDREW MANIS: Did she ever try to talk him out of it?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, I donlt think she did.
ANDREW MANIS: How would you express your relationship or your
feelings about your brother. What kind of person is he as you
•
observed? Is there something about him that you think is extra
special?
12
BETTY WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think he's special. He is a beautiful
person and he is nice to be around. Of course he is always
kidding and laughing. He kids me when he is around. I go to
Cincinnatti pretty regular. Sometimes I stay with him and we sit
around and talk.
ANDREW MANIS: What do you talk about when you are with him now
that you ar both adults? You don't get to see each other that
often. When you do visit and you're not here. When you're
there, what do you talk about?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, just sit and talk about things that happened
at the house when I was a little girl. About the people in the
community where we grew up. That's about it. How's everybody
doing? We enjoy one another. We go out and eat. Just sit there
and talk or maybe watch T.V. together. And my son, he's a
preacher now and he goes to his church. He's got his license and
he belongs to brother's church. Because of him.
ANDREW MANIS: What is his name?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Dennis Webb,
ANDREW MANIS: There were some young ministers in the church who
were handling a youth service the Sunday I was there. I don't
remember any names but maybe your son was involved.
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't know. He just started preaching. I
think it was the first Sunday in September. We all was up there.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think your brother had any influence on
your son going into the ministry?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I think he did. He liked being around brother a
13
lot. He used to work with my brother.
ANDREW MANIS: Have things changed around here a lot since you
were growing up?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Like what?
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I am leaving it open ended and ask you in
what ways things have changed.
BETTY WILLIAMS: Oh, since we grew up, well, yeah they've
changed. Nothing remains the same but I think that things are
even the environment -- the older you get you grow more into
maturity as you grow older and now a l ot of things that I realize
now that I didn't realize years and years ago . We have a
beautiful family, now, all of us, we stick toge ther. We are
closer now. We understand one another. We love each other.
ANDREW MANIS: Do you think what your brother did in Birmingham
made very much difference?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Not really, you mean as a family?
ANDREW MANIS: Not necessarily to your family, but do you think
it made much difference for blacks?
BETTY WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, it did. A l ot of people don't know
how to appreciate things you know and even as a whole a lot of us
black f olks don't stick together like we should.
ANDREW MANIS: How do you feel the second and third week of
January every year when things begin to turn and focus on Martin
Luther King? How does the King National Holiday effect you?
BETTY WILLIAMS: It doesn't bother me. It really don't. K just
feel like, well, brother didn't get justice f o r what he did and I
14
think he stood for more than King did. He got a holiday and I
think he should really have a holiday too.
ANDREW MANIS: Does all of the hoopla, if you will, over King
basically make you feel cynical or bitter that your brother
didn't get that much attention.
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, not really, but what he did is there and, it
doesn't bother me at all.
ANDREW MANIS: What do I need to know in order to understand your
brother? Is there one or two things that I really have to know
in order to understand him?
BETTY WILLIAMS: I don't think so. He's not hard, really, to
understand. He's a person just for right.
ANDREW MANIS: That's it? I appreciate your time. If there is
one last thing you can add to this I will give you one last
chance . Is there anything else that I need to know in order to
wri t e this book?
BETTY WILLIAMS: No, not r eally , I'm sorry. I wish I could have
told more.
ANDREW MANIS: Well, I probably bored you with these questi ons
but I appreciate your taking the time to help me.
15