On account of the French Intervention and the Mexican victory at the Battle of Puebla ("Cinco de Mayo"), on the 5th of May 1862, how about a fusion of French and Mexican cuisine?

The flour tortilla is the ultimate fusion of French & Mexican cuisine...

French-Mex Food

Somehere or other I had a great thread on Post-Maximilian Era Mexican pastries, starting with the Mexican version of the Croissant (which unfortunately is not French as popularly thought about, but rather a derivative of an Viennese (Austrian) pastry called Kipferl. It turns out many pastries including the Kipferl made it into Mexico during the Maximilian period - with the Kipferl actually arriving to Mexico in the 1860s, before it was popularised in France (1880's)! the Mexican version of the Croissant/Kipferl has granulated or caramelized sugar on top.Look at this thread:http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,38159.msg823454.html#msg823454

But actual French pastry did make it into Mexican cuisine during the same period, in the form of sweet breads like puff pastries and also in variations of baguettes and such which are the staple bread (besides tortillas) of people in Centrl Mexico... Aaah! Here it is right below the other post from the Bread thread in Brassgoggles:

Now here's a really interesting article on the fusion of French and mexican cuisine. This analysis date French influence as preceding the French intervention as far back as 1830 with the first printed cookbook in Mexico:

The French Influence On Mexican Cooking: La Comida Afrancescada, by Karen Hursh Graber,

Modern Mexican cooking is considered by culinary historians to be a fusion of three cuisines - indigenous, Spanish and French. This column has covered pre-Hispanic ingredients and techniques in the past, and last month focused on Mexican colonial-period cooking, characterized by the introduction of Spanish ingredients, notably animal products, citrus and other fruit, olives and olive oil, and Far Eastern spices, Spain's culinary legacy from the Arab world. The next important element in the evolution of modern Mexican gastronomy is the influence of French cooking, one that began surprisingly earlier than is generally believed

Although culinary changes reached the New World slowly, continental cuisine was transformed from medieval - characterized by the heavy use of sugar and spices - to modern cuisine, in which the flavors are enhanced with salt and herbs, at about the turn of the seventeenth century. This style of cooking was dubbed nouvelle cuisine, a term which is actually over three hundred years old. However, it is evident from colonial Mexican kitchen manuals that, although many dishes were called a la francesca, they were still basically medieval.

It was in the early-to-mid 1800's, several decades before Maximilian and Carlotta arrived to establish their ill-conceived empire, that Mexican cuisine began to be influenced by French recipes and techniques. In 1831, El Cocinero Mexicano (The Mexican Cook), the country's first printed cookbook, was published by Mariano Galván Rivera.

The anonymous author of the book, which was to be the most influential Mexican cookbook of the 19th century, may very well have been more anti-Spanish than pro-French in his nationalistic approach to food (considering that this was written only a decade after independence from Spain) but nevertheless his treatment of recipes was in the tradition of classic French chefs. The importance of stocks, emphasized in El Cocinero Mexicano, is one of the foundations of French cuisine, as is the attention to digestion. (The author quotes Alexandre Dumas' Dictionary of Cuisine on this topic.)

Although El Cocinero Mexicano and other cookbooks claimed to be nationalistic in their approaches to recipe collection, very few of them actually contained recipes for enchiladas, tamales and other corn-based dishes now considered to be quintessentially Mexican. Diccionario de Cocina, published in México City in 1845, calls tamales the food of the lower orders.

The formation of Mexican culture was still being seen in European terms, something that was to reverse itself a century later, but not before a period of intense effort on the part of the elite to emulate the architecture, fashion and cuisine of the French. The empire of Maximilian and the presidency of Porfirio Díaz were both influential in promoting la comida afrancescada ("Frenchified" cooking.)

When Maximilian and Carlotta began their doomed Mexican adventure, one of the first projects of the royal couple was the rebuilding of Chapultepec Castle, once the summer palace of the Spanish viceroys. Renovated in the Tuscan style, and decorated with furnishings from Queen Victoria and Czar Alexander II, the castle was the scene of one state dinner after another, where French cuisine was served. These meals began at 3:30 in the afternoon and lasted for five or six hours.

A menu dated March 29, 1865 is written in French, and one look at it explains why it took several hours to eat. Among the five courses are two soups, five fish and shellfish dishes, five meat dishes and assorted side dishes, desserts, champagne and French, Rhenish and Hungarian wines. Even at breakfast, sherry, bordeaux, burgundy and Hungarian wines were served. Historian Richard O'Connor, in writing of those days at the castle, tells us that "Creole society never gorged itself so completely and repeatedly as…when night after night the state dining room at Chapultepec was thrown open to feasting." Among the dishes served at that March 29 meal was potage brunoise, the recipe for which calls for a bain marie, a cooking technique adopted by Mexican chefs and called a baño maria, used to make a jugo de carne very similar to the meat broth used in making potage brunoise. Another dish listed on the menu is vol-au-vent, the filled puff pastry shells that became the Mexican bolovanes. (The French influence on cakes and pastries alone could fill a book, and for an historical perspective on this, see The Pastry Wars, in the November 2003 issue of Mexico Connect.)

Despite the fine dining and drinking that went on at Chapultepec, Maximilian's empire came to a tragic end, which possibly could have been predicted when, in a misguided attempt at gastronomic fusion, one of his Mexican guests on a canoe trip mixed pulque with French champagne, producing highly unpleasant effects on several of the drinkers on board. Two years later, Maximilian was accompanied on his last carriage ride toward the site of his execution by his faithful chef, Tudos.

During the thirty-five years that followed, under President Porfirio Díaz, a Francophile infatuated by European culture, French influences permeated Mexican cuisine. The terms and sauces used in French cooking, such as béchamel and velouté, became part of the Mexican culinary repertoire. Brillat-Savarin's Psychology of Taste had been published in a Mexican edition in 1852, and in 1893 a cookbook by the chef of the Paris Jockey Club was published in Mexico. Housewives eagerly read the newspaper recipe pages in order to duplicate the characteristic dishes of fine French cuisine.

In Una Mirada Historica a través de la Comida - A Look at History through Food - Tonantzín Ortíz Rodríguez points out that while eating is a biological act, cooking is a cultural, social and economic act. Cuisine permits us to identify the group from which an individual comes. The culinary styles of the Porfiriato, divided so markedly between those of the elite and those of the poor, seem like a clear indication of the revolution to come.

Homemakers such as Lucía Cabrera de Azcárate, whose manuscript cookbook of 1901, Recetario de Tepetitlán, Puebla , has recently been published by CONACULTA, the National Council for Arts and Culture, were clearly from a social class that could adopt the French recipes and techniques. The book contains several French reduced sauces that the señora prepared at home, as well as complicated sweets and desserts and an array of nearly every type of meat, fish and game imaginable.

Although the French influence on Mexican cooking was subsequently downplayed in favor of a more nationalistic approach, French techniques and Mexican ingredients made an excellent gastronomic pairing. Native ingredients such as squash blossoms, huitlacoche and avocados took beautifully to French style soups, crepes and mousses. Although these are claimed by proponents of the current nouvelle cuisine, they are offshoots of the French-Mexican culinary blending of the nineteenth century.

The following recipes, while containing many indigenous Mexican ingredients, would never have come to be created without the techniques learned from the French

Mexican Bolovan. This is a derivative of the French Vol-au-vent, a savoury filled puff pastry shell, which is then topped with French style sauces, or Mexican variations of French sauces.Seafood stuffed bolovanes:Mexican EmpanadasPastries stuffed with meat, cheese or vegetables. Originally from Galicia (Spain) they were transformed under French culinary influence

Cuerno (Cuernitos) (Mexican version of the Kipfel/Croissant introduced by Prince Maximilian I of Austria (Hapsburg) and lovely wife Carlotta in the 1860's, when he became Emperor Maximilian I of Mexico, backed by the French Intervention and per the request of the remaining Mexican nobility)http://www.artimexbakery.com/Fino_Cuerno.html

Orejas ("Ears")A fyllo type dough, buttered and layered, rolled and then cut in thin cross sections (6mm wide), then sugar coated and baked until the sugar caramelizes. The "ears" fall apart in "rings" segments when you crack the bread... slightly burned, caramelized butter taste. This is indescribably good with coffee.http://www.artimexbakery.com/Orejas.html

BolilloMexican compact version of the French Baguette - this is the food of the poor. The most basic product of all bakers in Mexico is of French origin and their cheapest bread used in Mexico as a table bread and for sandwiches, etc. Second only to the maize/corn Tortilla for staple bread.http://www.artimexbakery.com/Bolillo.html

TeleraThe most common type of bread used for a certain style of sandwiches ("Tortas") in the city streets of Central Mexico. More like a soft baguette, it has a rather soft interior and is far heartier that the typical hamburger bun we use in the United States. Make one hell of a ham and cheese sandwich. Ham, cheese, avocado, bacon, tomatoes and chili "salsa" are a typical street sandwich.http://www.artimexbakery.com/Telera.html

Cuerno (Mexican version of the Kipfel/Croissant introduced by Prince Maximilian I of Austria (Hapsburg) and lovely wife Carlotta in the 1860's, when he became Emperor Maximilian I of Mexico, backed by the French Intervention and per the request of the remaining Mexican nobility)

The part of sourth-west France where I spend as much time as possible (and however much, it is never enough) has a writing system that is very similar to Galician and Portuguese, and down there they have a pastry called a "cornu" (horns) that looks a lot like a smaller version of the "cuerno"; it is usually only available around Easter.

Orejas ("Ears") - A fyllo type dough, buttered and layered, rolled and then cut in thin cross sections (6mm wide), then sugar coated and baked until the sugar caramelizes. The "ears" fall apart in "rings" segments when you crack the bread... slightly burned, caramelized butter taste. This is indescribably good with coffee.

This dessert is made of crepes stuffed with a warm goat-milk caramel sauce called Cajeta. Cajeta (pronunced "cah-hey-tah"), is made by simmering goat's milk, or occasionally a sweetened liquid, stirring frequently, until it becomes very viscous due to evaporation of water, and caramelized. For those living in the US, if you can get Cajeta in a jar (A good brand is Coronado - exported to the US), the definitely I recommend it. Served hot or cold, cajeta is as close as you will get to heaven. For the crepes you want to serve it warm and dilute it with butter and a bit of Kahlua, so it's as runny as in the picture (otherwise cold cajeta is so thick you can stand a spoon in the sauce)

This dish is a 20th. C. adaptation to the sweet crepes of the 19th. C. First served in the 1950's by chef Jaime Saldívar, these savoury crepes blend prehispanic foods with high French cuisine, by filling the crepe with a mixture of sauteed Huitlacoche with onions, garlic, mushrooms, chiles, and other vegetables.

Huitlacoche or Cuitlacoche (pronunced "ooey-tlah'co-chey" or "cooey-tla-co-chey") is known as "corn smut" in the US, and is a type of maize fungus that is prized in Mexico for it's taste since antiquity - sort of like saying a Mexican Truffle, so some crops were intentionally allowed to become infected with the fungus (the fungus is not typically consumed in the US, save in the Mexican cuisine context).

It's name is better suited to a Musical Comedy than a conflict between Nations and calls up visions of armies bombarding each other with Éclairs, Fruit Tarts, Napoleons and even Strudel. But on April 16, 1838 a French Fleet began the blockade of Mexico's east coast seaports, launching a war. It was based on a claim that since Mexico had first gained its independence, various French citizens living there, had lost both lives and property due to actions by Mexicans. In one such incident, a restaurant owned by one Monsieur Remontel either in Puebla or in Tacubaya - reports of its location vary - had suffered an assault on its supply of pastry valued at 60,000 pesos. He pointed a finger at some inebriated Mexican officials as the criminals. The ambiguity of the restaurant's location plus the size of the claim seem to cast doubt on the validity of all the French demands. However, this particular one caught the eyes of French journalists who immediately made this incident a cause celebre and dubbed the event "The Pastry War."

Actually, there was more to this than a raid on a restaurant's supply of pastry. Mexico had many loans from France and was in default on all of them. The Mexican economy was weak and a constant parade of claimants to the Presidency did little to assure debtors that payments would resume. The entire matter had been simmering for months. Rather than seek the repayment of the loans that totaled millions, the French now demanded a 600,000-peso indemnity based on the alleged losses of property. Mexico refused to pay, demanding that the blockade be ended before any negotiations could begin. Although the Mexicans had put an army into the field to defend Vera Cruz [sic], lack of funding made significant armed resistance impossible. The French force of 30,000 men was opposed by only approximately 3000 Mexican troops.

Some negotiations were started but Mexico continued to demand an end to the blockade and negotiations failed. By November of 1838 the French had lost patience and began to bombard the Mexican fort of San Juan de Ulna that defended the harbor of Vera Cruz [sic], the principal port of entry for imports. Three days later Mexico declared war on France. Now the French invaded the city. A one-day battle occurred and although the Mexicans enjoyed some early success, in the end they were forced to retreat. It was at this point that the Pastry War left its single significant mark on Mexican history. Although it was a defeat for Mexico, for one man it was a victory.

In 1833 a General, Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna had seized the Presidency. Almost immediately he had established a pattern of retiring from office in favor of his vice president, returning when he saw fit to do so. In 1836, he led an expedition across the Rio Grande to quell a rebellion that sought independence for Texas, then a part of Mexico. While he had captured the Alamo, he was soon defeated and taken prisoner. Somehow he managed to arrange to meet the American president, Andrew Jackson. Strangely, enroute to Washington, he was greeted as a celebrity by the anti-slavery movement since they viewed the events in Texas as an effort by the slave states to improve their position. Because he was still legally the President of Mexico, Santa Anna managed to secure his freedom by agreeing to recognize the independence of Texas if he were permitted to consult the Mexican Congress. Once again in Mexico, he did not resume the presidency nor consult the Congress but retreated into retirement. Since the revenue from the customs duties that had been cut off by the blockade was the chief source of income for the government, it did not seem a good time to take back the reins of the nearly bankrupt country. Added to this, his negotiations with the Americans that led to the loss of Texas were questionable. For all practical purposes, Santa Anna was politically dead.

Although Gomez Farias, Santa Anna's vice-president was supposedly in charge of the country during Santa Anna's foray into Texas, Anastasio Bustamante had been elected president and had appointed a General Rincon to lead the battle against the French. But with the sound of the first French gun, Santa Anna rushed to Vera Cruz and placed himself under Rincon, who accepted him readily. Now Santa Anna recommended a withdrawal from the beleaguered fort and the resumptions of negotiations. At this point Bustamante appointed Santa Anna to take command and attack the French. Attack he did and succeeded in briefly stopping the French landing force. He then sought to seize the pier being used for the landings. At this point a volley of French cannon fire hit Santa Anna and he lost his leg. Forced to retreat from the city, he still claimed a victory. Melodramatically, he issued a statement in which he claimed to have come to his end, begging to be buried on the site to which he had retreated, and asked only to be granted the title of "The Good Mexican." His limited success in temporarily stopping the French plus the loss of his leg that he later had enshrined in Mexico City, had dramatically rehabilitated him as a hero in the eyes of his fellow citizens. Had it not been for The Pastry War Santa Anna might well have disappeared from the Mexican scene. Now, he was to go on to regain the Presidency and despite periodic retirements and exiles remained the dominant figure in Mexican politics until 1855.

As for the Pastry War itself, the English now intervened and Mexico finally agreed to pay the original 600,000 peso claim in installments. Today, "The Pastry War" has just about disappeared from Mexican history. Many Mexicans know nothing about it. But the fact that it was the vehicle for the return of Santa Anna to power makes it an event that must be noted as a significant turning point in Mexican history.

Can anybody tell me if this exists? I should think this is a cousin to the American "Cheese Toast"

But anyhow, I think I invented something, and while I'm absolutely sure that someone else has done something like this, I can't find any reference to it anywhere. Quoting myself from another thread in Off Topic:

I'm going to call them "Parmesan Roti," Because it's the closest I can think of.

Basically I started without measuring anything, just taking a small (perhaps 1/2 cup) of basic wheat flour and started kneading with a little water and a regular vinaigrette salad dressing (I had no oil, you see?), and then I made a flat pancake, about 4 inches in diameter and made it such that the dough was still sticky (wet), and instead of dusting the pancake with flour I used a thin layer of grated Parmesan cheese.

Then in a pan with two tablespoons of salted butter I applied heat until the butter started smoking at which point I dropped the pancake into the browning butter. Then lowered the heat to medium high and fried each side until deep brown, intermittently flipping to make sure that no side burns. Once both sides as brown, you want to turn off the heat and continue flipping one or two times until the bread is cooked, and just let the bread cool after that.

Sheer awesomeness as a companion to any food, like pasta. The vinaigrette does not interfere with the butter, as it just lends garlic and herbs to the taste, and the butter provides all the creaminess in the taste. Just awesome.

Sounds good. I, for one, have not heard of anything quite like this. Has anyone else?

Or you can forget the bread altogether and follow the latest fad south of the border... straight from the grimy food stalls of Mexico City by way of Tex-Mex joints in LA, I bring you "Chicharones de Queso" (Cheese Rinds), with that famous sound track by Right Said Fred:

The wonderful thing is about making a nice pie, is the timing isn’t strict. All preparation, throw it in a pot and throw a duvet of pastry over the top.

Prepare the stock…

With Pistil and Mortar, crush further the fennel star anise, mild chilli and add half teaspoon of pepper

Place a small knob of butter into a saucepan, a few drops of olive oil and a little salt and heat until butter is melting Place half a finely chopped onion into saucepan and stir until glazedTake off the heat and add half the crushed ingredients from Pistil Pour the 350ml of chicken stock in the same saucepan adding the bay leaf, and bring almost to boil then simmer to reduceWhilst that is simmering…

Prepare the filling…

Wash, remove skin and any hard bits from chicken breasts Slice into strips then into cubes about 2cms

Peel, chop and remove as much core from the Parsnips as possible. Finely chop Parsnip down to no bigger than 1cm sq x 2mm ish. Finely chop half the onionChop bell pepper into chunky slices and halve the slices Finely chop the basil and parsley

Make a nice stack of all the chicken cubes on a board and dust about 1 to 2 tbsps of flour The other half of the crushed spices and salt to tasteGet your hands in and rub all those ingredients into the chicken until all cubes are coated. Heat small knob of butter and 3 tbsps olive oil in a non stick-skillet to high heat and flash fry the chicken until edges are browning. Bring heat down, add the other half of the onion and stir. Place into huge pie dish adding all the chopped ingredients, baby carrots, broccoli and mushrooms.

Dust the basil and parsley over all the ingredients in the pie dish

Go back to the reducing stock, add water to increase volume again. Taste should be slight aniseed with a subtle spicy finish from the mild chilli. Thicken with cornflour, not too thick – similar consistency as a broth or medium thick soup.

Pour into pie dish over the ingredients – pour over the 2x tbsp cream evenly into the pie mix And lay the pastry topping and glaze with whisked egg- a little milk and a teaspoon of pepper

later you’ll be delighted – the spices become subtle and the chicken retains a slight crispiness even after baking in the oven for 35 minutes or until the pie crust in evenly brown. (Moderately hot at Gas 6 or 200 Celsius)

Until somebody comes up with a "Tres Leches stout" or "Cajeta IPA" (almost an oxymoron IMHO) don't be claiming any sort of Latin American heritage..

LOL - nearly ANYTHING can claim Latin-American heritage (viz: "Taco Bell") - whether it is successful or not, is a matter of taste and history, I suppose.

I was recently sent a restaurant menu that included "Beer-Braised Carnitas" - not at all authentic, but sounded interesting, because I had a pork shoulder, a case of beer, but no lard to make 'real' carnitas.

Peel and seed a couple dried Ancho and Pasilla chiles, cover w/boiling water, with a handful of Mexican oregano, about a tablespoon of minced fresh garlic and a handful of dehydrated onion flakes and some grund cumin seed. Let it sit overnight, then blend it.

Season the pork shoulder (or boston butt) with just salt and pepper - cover and refrigerate overnight as well.

Next day, sear the bejeebers out of the pork in a big dutch oven in olive oil. Add the blended chile mixture, and enough (darkish) beer to almost cover the meat. (I used Yuengling lager, because that is what I had). (note: no dairy added, because I didn't have any)

Bring to boil, reduce to low simmer, let it go until you can grab the bone and pull it out clean.

Shred the meat,lose the bones and skin, lose MOST of the fat, skim MOST of the fat off the cooking liquid. Add enough skimmed cooking liquid to the shredded meat to keep it moist. Serve. (tortillas, shredded cabbage, shredded radish and crumbled queso fresco help)

It's f'ing delicious. I made the same basic dish for a party where most of the guests kept kosher, using skin-on, bone-in chicken legs. 15 guests, 22 pounds of chicken, no leftovers.

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Jeremiah Cornelius HarlockAt Your Service

"It's so hard to know if you're bound for a fall,But better to have tripped than never danced at all.""Dancing Under The Rose" - The Albion Band.

Another thumbs up for slow cooked pork Cap'n and I'm still following the Mexican vibe J.Wilhelm, thanks for the real deal. Sadly, I'm now on a healthy eating kick. I have accepted that I am too heavy and I am fed up with some fat bu**er standing on my feet all day (me!) So, my challenge is to shape up before diabetes or worse kicks in and of course that means finding low fat, low sugar foods that still inspire and wow my tortured taste buds. The strategy is:

How does that fit with high carb Steampunk / Victorian cuisine then? Well, I think it can because I can still strive for taste but I don't need the calories now I am of a certain age and global warming is giving the UK south east a very charming climate. Tricks learned so far:

Grated fresh ginger added to almost any chinese recipe is good.Garlic and chillies are great taste saversQuark seems to be an amazing dairy non fat alternative - almost nothing it can't go in except it splits if cooked (even if warmed too much!)Cornflour makes an almost acceptable white sauce but really must be flavoured with cheese, herbs, in fact almost anything...Reduced fat cheese is not worth the time of day, so I have researched stronger flavoured cheeses and use less - the ubiquitous Parmigiana and a new one on me, the slightly related Grana Padano. This is a very old cheese, cooked and so is almost healthy in that it is low sodium (potassium instead) and is reduced fat as standard. Tests have shown it has heart health benefits! A good tasty sheeps cheese is Ossau Iraty.Using softer vinegars instead of wine in cooking, for example, grate red cabbage with chopped garlic and poach in a little sherry vinegar then add some sauerkraut, caraway seeds and black pepper and cook it down until almost dry. Hot or cold it is a great salad / spicy vegetable.

However, oh for a pie, or sausages, or crackling round a succulent pork roast... I shall keep on reading this thread so I can join in at least vicariously!

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Airship Artificer, part-time romantik and amateur Natural Philosopher

"wee all here are much troubled with the loss of poor Thompson & Sutton"

Reducing salt can be helpful if you already consume a lot of it, but I'm not the best person to explain how to do that, since I virtually stopped adding salt to my food when I was about ten years old. I still use coarse sea salt now and again, but almost never add it to my food on the plate. And I eat almost no processed food and certainly not "pre-prepared meals".

The best two methods, though, are to eat from slightly smaller plates, so that your smaller portions don't look smaller, and eat more slowly.

When you've eaten enough, your belly signals this to your brain but the mechanism is very slow; if you are eating quickly, it is very easy to cram in a load of superfluous food while the "full up" signal is still on its way to the brain.

Another thumbs up for slow cooked pork Cap'n and I'm still following the Mexican vibe J.Wilhelm, thanks for the real deal. Sadly, I'm now on a healthy eating kick. I have accepted that I am too heavy and I am fed up with some fat bu**er standing on my feet all day (me!) So, my challenge is to shape up before diabetes or worse kicks in and of course that means finding low fat, low sugar foods that still inspire and wow my tortured taste buds. The strategy is:

How does that fit with high carb Steampunk / Victorian cuisine then? Well, I think it can because I can still strive for taste but I don't need the calories now I am of a certain age and global warming is giving the UK south east a very charming climate. Tricks learned so far:

Grated fresh ginger added to almost any chinese recipe is good.Garlic and chillies are great taste saversQuark seems to be an amazing dairy non fat alternative - almost nothing it can't go in except it splits if cooked (even if warmed too much!)Cornflour makes an almost acceptable white sauce but really must be flavoured with cheese, herbs, in fact almost anything...Reduced fat cheese is not worth the time of day, so I have researched stronger flavoured cheeses and use less - the ubiquitous Parmigiana and a new one on me, the slightly related Grana Padano. This is a very old cheese, cooked and so is almost healthy in that it is low sodium (potassium instead) and is reduced fat as standard. Tests have shown it has heart health benefits! A good tasty sheeps cheese is Ossau Iraty.Using softer vinegars instead of wine in cooking, for example, grate red cabbage with chopped garlic and poach in a little sherry vinegar then add some sauerkraut, caraway seeds and black pepper and cook it down until almost dry. Hot or cold it is a great salad / spicy vegetable.

However, oh for a pie, or sausages, or crackling round a succulent pork roast... I shall keep on reading this thread so I can join in at least vicariously!

poor people or most people ate a far more extended range of plants and vegetables and very little meat. What we call weeds today was salad or greens until the 1900s.

Keith - quite right, I guess I could have said eliminate saturated fat and that's so difficult that it will just reduce it to acceptable levels. Other fats are important and I am just careful.

Annie, so right. I had already concluded that we ate too much meat anyway in our western diet. It seems that we have forgotten how to cook vegetables really well, even if we are able to buy them in the first place. Supermarket stuff goes off within days, so I am starting to grow what I can and look at farmer's markets / street markets for the rest.

So, 5 weeks in I am losing an average of 1 lb a week in weight and already 50mm off my waist measurement. But I do feel disproportionately better than these meagre measures indicate!

In the United States, it was Italian immigrants at the turn of the 20th. century who brought and would not get rid of their vegetable diet. At the time, vegetables were considered the food of the poor, so in spite of attempts to change their diet, Italians continued and the American public got a taste for vegetables.

As far as fats I once lost 30 lbs in two months (circa 2005) by eating mostly vegetables and meat and dumping most carbohydrates. I actually increased the fat content. Probably not good entirely, as I've heard that this diet (later called the Caveman diet of the Paleo diet) is very stressful on the cardiovascular system.

In the United States, it was Italian immigrants at the turn of the 20th. century who brought and would not get rid of their vegetable diet. At the time, vegetables were considered the food of the poor, so in spite of attempts to change their diet, Italians continued and the American public got a taste for vegetables.

As far as fats I once lost 30 lbs in two months (circa 2005) by eating mostly vegetables and meat and dumping most carbohydrates. I actually increased the fat content. Probably not good entirely, as I've heard that this diet (later called the Caveman diet of the Paleo diet) is very stressful on the cardiovascular system.

I once removed grains almost entirely from my diet for at least six months (no bread, no pasta, beer only once a week), switched to full fat milk from semi skimmed milk (I consume about 500mL per day), cut out all caffeine (no tea or coffee), increased drastically the amount of raw food (i.e., mostly uncooked fruit and vegetables and some raw meat and fish, but also reasonable quantities of hazelnuts and brazil nuts) and also increased my consumption of all kinds of meat to see what would happen.

And what happened? Absolutely nothing, other than reducing my gas bill by a negligible amount. I neither lost nor gained weight, noticed no change in my overall condition.

Palæo (caveman) diet is perhaps not suited to everybody, but I don't think it is necessarily dangerous. Maybe a sudden switch from processed microwaveable "meals for one" to a palæo diet would be stressful, but my diet was never as "modern" as that, anyway

Cornflour makes an almost acceptable white sauce but really must be flavoured with cheese, herbs, in fact almost anything...

It makes an acceptable white sauce as long as you remember to use less of it than you would wheat flour.

But, how does this particular recipe fit in with your dietary aims? I don't see how this fits within the five point strategy you outline.

I guess I am not really following a diet in the usual definition of the term but trying to alter what I eat to a more healthy regime - ie this is for ever, not just until I reach a certain weight. One of the problems I perceive is that we have family favourite dishes which we now need to either forfeit or modify extensively to meet the 5 point strategy (although I never thought of it as such). One regular is curried eggs which requires white sauce, so the replacement uses no wheat flour or butter and is made with skimmed milk, so it falls into the eliminate saturated fat area I would think. The underlying concept is to reduce harmful elements and replace them with healthier options. I hope this is not going off topic unless I am striving for Food! food! food! The Good...I do come from a generation where menus were largely derived from the Victorian era. I was brought up and taught to cook mostly by my grandmother who was born in the 19th century. So, if I want to enjoy comfort food from my childhood, I need to reduce the calorie count if I want to continue to enjoy them! Talking of Italian food, there is a Sicilian pasta dish 'pasta 'ncasciata' which is an aubergine covered pasta dome. One recipe I looked at suggested it was about 1000 calories per serving!!

I guess I am not really following a diet in the usual definition of the term but trying to alter what I eat to a more healthy regime - ie this is for ever, not just until I reach a certain weight.

Quite right, too. Your diet is "the stuff that you eat". This modern idea that a "diet" is a temporary thing that you do in order to lose some weight is ridiculous.

At a psychological level, a fad diet is like Basil Fawlty trying to not mention the war… he is so obsessed with staying off the topic that it invades his every thought. A person on a fad diet is thinking so hard about not eating and about trying to ignore hunger, that he is constantly thinking about food and constantly hungry.

One of the problems I perceive is that we have family favourite dishes which we now need to either forfeit or modify extensively to meet the 5 point strategy (although I never thought of it as such). One regular is curried eggs which requires white sauce, so the replacement uses no wheat flour or butter and is made with skimmed milk, so it falls into the eliminate saturated fat area I would think. The underlying concept is to reduce harmful elements and replace them with healthier options. I hope this is not going off topic unless I am striving for Food! food! food! The Good...I do come from a generation where menus were largely derived from the Victorian era. I was brought up and taught to cook mostly by my grandmother who was born in the 19th century. So, if I want to enjoy comfort food from my childhood, I need to reduce the calorie count if I want to continue to enjoy them! Talking of Italian food, there is a Sicilian pasta dish 'pasta 'ncasciata' which is an aubergine covered pasta dome. One recipe I looked at suggested it was about 1000 calories per serving!!

It seems to me that "1000 calories per serving" as you put it is very reasonable. Just eat one serving of that, or a 1/2 to 3/4 sized serving and add some very low calorie food such as salad greens.