The Novus Ordo is one big liturgical abuse. It should be abrogated and the Tridentine which is real Catholic Worship brought back.

I'd say the Tridentine as the only option is kind of abusive to people who don't understand Latin and can't follow along with a priest who mumbles it with his back turned. Why should the words of life be so inaccessible?

They don't, when they find out about them. When these are reported to the bishop, they are generally stopped and often the priest is removed. It remains up to someone in the parish to contact the bishop. The RCC church is widespread enough that it's difficult to root out these types of people until after the incident has already happened. Even the most dedicated of archbishops can't be everywhere at once.

Exactly. I think people forget how big we are. How about over 4,000 bishops and half a million priests, hundreds of millions upon hundreds of millions of faithful, spread across every country and nearly every culture on the globe. The Holy See has to oversee all this with its small staff. It's unimaginably overwhelming.

So yes, if I see serious abuses, I report them. As they announce on the subway here in Boston all the time, "If you see something, say something!" If I saw something and reported it and nothing is done, no skin off my back, I go back to my life of prayer and service to the Gospel. God or the Holy See (if they can get to it) will take care of the bishop and the priest.

The Novus Ordo is one big liturgical abuse. It should be abrogated and the Tridentine which is real Catholic Worship brought back.

I'd say the Tridentine as the only option is kind of abusive to people who don't understand Latin and can't follow along with a priest who mumbles it with his back turned. Why should the words of life be so inaccessible?

Yeah, and they are so "accessible" now, and how's that working out for us? SO ACCESSIBLE that 70% of American Catholics according to polls think the Eucharist is just a wafer.

The Novus Ordo is one big liturgical abuse. It should be abrogated and the Tridentine which is real Catholic Worship brought back.

I'd say the Tridentine as the only option is kind of abusive to people who don't understand Latin and can't follow along with a priest who mumbles it with his back turned. Why should the words of life be so inaccessible?

Yeah, and they are so "accessible" now, and how's that working out for us? SO ACCESSIBLE that 70% of American Catholics according to polls think the Eucharist is just a wafer.

The Novus Ordo is one big liturgical abuse. It should be abrogated and the Tridentine which is real Catholic Worship brought back.

I'd say the Tridentine as the only option is kind of abusive to people who don't understand Latin and can't follow along with a priest who mumbles it with his back turned. Why should the words of life be so inaccessible?

Yeah, and they are so "accessible" now, and how's that working out for us? SO ACCESSIBLE that 70% of American Catholics according to polls think the Eucharist is just a wafer.

That blows too. Isn't there a middle ground though?

Yes, there is. Pope Benedict is leading the way in this.

He insists on continuity between the two forms of the rite and believes that they can enrich each other. So a more accessible traditional rite and a more traditional modern rite is what's coming. As of now the readings in the old rite can be done in English instead of Latin at Low Masses (at High Masses, of course, they are sung). Dialogue Masses (where the faithful participate fully by voice as well as interiorly) have been allowed since long before the Council. I imagine a time not very long in the future when the vernacular will be permitted for the Propers and other parts of the traditional Mass. (In fact we may sort of get that already with the new Anglican Catholic liturgy being considered in Rome as I write this).

And the modern rite will also continue to go through a "reform of the reform." Not just better translations, but more traditional rubrics and practices and ars celebrandi to bring it more in line with the ancient Catholic liturgy.

People like Robb who bafflingly denigrate the historic and ancient liturgy of their own Church, as well as "rad trads" who refuse to consider that any reform at all was advisable after 1962 (or 1955 or what have you) are both off here.

The Novus Ordo is one big liturgical abuse. It should be abrogated and the Tridentine which is real Catholic Worship brought back.

I'd say the Tridentine as the only option is kind of abusive to people who don't understand Latin and can't follow along with a priest who mumbles it with his back turned. Why should the words of life be so inaccessible?

Yeah, and they are so "accessible" now, and how's that working out for us? SO ACCESSIBLE that 70% of American Catholics according to polls think the Eucharist is just a wafer.

That blows too. Isn't there a middle ground though?

Yes, there is. Pope Benedict is leading the way in this.

He insists on continuity between the two forms of the rite and believes that they can enrich each other. So a more accessible traditional rite and a more traditional modern rite is what's coming. As of now the readings in the old rite can be done in English instead of Latin at Low Masses (at High Masses, of course, they are sung). Dialogue Masses (where the faithful participate fully by voice as well as interiorly) have been allowed since long before the Council. I imagine a time not very long in the future when the vernacular will be permitted for the Propers and other parts of the traditional Mass. (In fact we may sort of get that already with the new Anglican Catholic liturgy being considered in Rome as I write this).

And the modern rite will also continue to go through a "reform of the reform." Not just better translations, but more traditional rubrics and practices and ars celebrandi to bring it more in line with the ancient Catholic liturgy.

People like Robb who bafflingly denigrate the historic and ancient liturgy of their own Church, as well as "rad trads" who refuse to consider that any reform at all was advisable after 1962 (or 1955 or what have you) are both off here.

I'm glad to hear this. I hope he succeeds. Forgive me, I need to stop speaking out of limited knowledge.

Before I go offending anyone, I want to say that I am merely wondering if what is shown in this video is real. Do they actually do this in some Roman Catholic Churches? I have seen women distribute communion, female altar servers, and other oddities, but never this. Has the pope said anything about this?

Are you saying here that the Catholic Church had fallen into the desolate wilderness after the changes of Vatican II ?

Liturgically, not AT Vatican II but AFTER Vatican II, yes, the Roman liturgy has been in crisis. In many areas, it has indeed been a wilderness. I like to refer to the crisis as the West's version of Iconoclasm. 13 centuries later but just as destructive.

Before I go offending anyone, I want to say that I am merely wondering if what is shown in this video is real. Do they actually do this in some Roman Catholic Churches? I have seen women distribute communion, female altar servers, and other oddities, but never this. Has the pope said anything about this?

My mother's family left the RCC around 1970, when they suppressed the Tridentine Mass and made other changes. I don't think this stuff had even happened yet! But these later developments, coupled with the earlier abuses, were what led me to leave the RCC, because I realized that the true church would never be allowed by God to fall into such disgrace.

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

In the Roman Catholic Church, these things can and should be reported to the bishop, whose job it is to quash them and replace the parish personnel responsible.

There were flare-ups of these types of incidents from the 1960s to about the 1980s. There's a good book about it, which I've mentioned before- "Ungodly Rage," by Donna Steichen. Since then, there have been many new bishops appointed, who for the most part have cracked down on liturgical abuse. Every once in a while, you hear about another embarrassment like this slipping through the cracks. I hope for the RCC's sake that when the new liturgical manual is introduced later this year, the commitment to proper enforcement will be renewed.

Perhaps part of what our problem is is that, when devout Christians see these abuses occurring within our Church, they decide to just leave the Church rather than remaining in it and actually working to change it from the inside. If more people didn't split and actually did something to end these abuses our Church would be much better.

Martin Luther tried to work to change the church from within. We see how that went over.

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

The Novus Ordo is one big liturgical abuse. It should be abrogated and the Tridentine which is real Catholic Worship brought back.

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I attend the so called "Novus Ordo" every week and on holy days and find great solice and devotion in it. On the other hand, I attended a Tridentine Mass in the past and found the experience to be cold and scary. The only thing I ever got out of my experience with the Mass "of all time" was a whole lot of jitters. Don't just assume that all RC's are completely fed up with the reforms of the Mass and long for the return of the Latin Liturgy and the overscrupulous theology and morality that, in past accompanied it. The Popes Summorum document freeing the "old" mass is almost four years old and the number of Latin Masses worldwide has only slightly increased. There is not as much interest in its restoration of some malcontents would have us believe. This is proved by the facts I've just stated. If Catholics were really so enamored by this old rite then would not most churches be overcrowding with people wishing to attend them? This, so far hasn't happened and I highly doubt that we can except a return to this supposed Catholic Camelot anytime soon.

How interesting that two different ppl had very diffferent reactions! I did not grow up Christian, I grew up an Orthodox Jew. But my first experience with the Tridentine Mass (1970s, a renegade Mass in a motel room) was so overwhelmingly beautiful. By contrast, my experience with the novus ordo turned my stomach.

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

Martin Luther tried to work to change the church from within. We see how that went over.

I see where you're coming from, but if you think the Orthodox Church contains no abuses in need of correction, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

The Orthodox Church is, spiritually, "the end of the road" for me. I'm come to understand by now that even churches with infallible doctrines are made up of fallible people.

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

The Novus Ordo is one big liturgical abuse. It should be abrogated and the Tridentine which is real Catholic Worship brought back.

I'd say the Tridentine as the only option is kind of abusive to people who don't understand Latin and can't follow along with a priest who mumbles it with his back turned. Why should the words of life be so inaccessible?

Yeah, and they are so "accessible" now, and how's that working out for us? SO ACCESSIBLE that 70% of American Catholics according to polls think the Eucharist is just a wafer.

That blows too. Isn't there a middle ground though?

Yes, there is. Pope Benedict is leading the way in this.

He insists on continuity between the two forms of the rite and believes that they can enrich each other. So a more accessible traditional rite and a more traditional modern rite is what's coming. As of now the readings in the old rite can be done in English instead of Latin at Low Masses (at High Masses, of course, they are sung). Dialogue Masses (where the faithful participate fully by voice as well as interiorly) have been allowed since long before the Council. I imagine a time not very long in the future when the vernacular will be permitted for the Propers and other parts of the traditional Mass. (In fact we may sort of get that already with the new Anglican Catholic liturgy being considered in Rome as I write this).

And the modern rite will also continue to go through a "reform of the reform." Not just better translations, but more traditional rubrics and practices and ars celebrandi to bring it more in line with the ancient Catholic liturgy.

People like Robb who bafflingly denigrate the historic and ancient liturgy of their own Church, as well as "rad trads" who refuse to consider that any reform at all was advisable after 1962 (or 1955 or what have you) are both off here.

I said that it didn't do anything for me (And I'm not alone among Catholics who feel like this). I guess that its not enough for us to all have to agree with you on theological/moralmatters, now we all have to give love and fidelity to the Tridentine Mass as well.

I attended one and it didn't do anything for me. I still stand by the Novus Ordo as a good and spiritually enriching liturgy which satisfies my desire to communion with God. The Latin mass and mentality go back to the Dark Ages and it would be deadly for the Church to re embrace it after all that we have been through for the past 50 years.

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

Some of this stuff is pretty old, as for instance the the first tape which was recorded almost a decade ago. Clown masses seem to be one of those generational fads, as there was an outbreak of these back around 1970, and then everyone got it out of their systems and it became one of those things that people referred to nostalgically, ruefully, or as a present menace depending upon their theological politics.

The second clip is actually of an Episcopal service, specifically one performed (if you'll pardon the pun) at Trinity Wall Street back in 2005. (You can tell it's Episcopal because of the high production values.) Again, this was another one-off thing, and all the white-haired liberals waxed nostalgic about their hippy years, all the conservative radicals decried it as indicating that the church was a total loss, and everyone else (the vast majority) rolled their eyes.

Stunt masses might be considered an abuse, but really for the most part the remain freaks, and as long as one is warned and can avoid them, they aren't that imminent a threat. There is something of a tendency to engage in stunts at big ceremonial occasions, and that needs to be quashed; but that's where you have to rely on the bishop. (And while the chaos I've tended to experience in Orthodox hierarchical liturgies is not as bad, it's only not as bad.) The thing that is really soul-killing is the routine slovenliness, the weekly irreverence, the fear of doing things the normal way.

My mother's family left the RCC around 1970, when they suppressed the Tridentine Mass and made other changes. I don't think this stuff had even happened yet! But these later developments, coupled with the earlier abuses, were what led me to leave the RCC, because I realized that the true church would never be allowed by God to fall into such disgrace.

It is true. A lot of people have left the RCC because of the post Vatican II changes and some of the Masses which have been seen.

I said that it didn't do anything for me (And I'm not alone among Catholics who feel like this). I guess that its not enough for us to all have to agree with you on theological/moralmatters, now we all have to give love and fidelity to the Tridentine Mass as well.

I attended one and it didn't do anything for me. I still stand by the Novus Ordo as a good and spiritually enriching liturgy which satisfies my desire to communion with God. The Latin mass and mentality go back to the Dark Ages and it would be deadly for the Church to re embrace it after all that we have been through for the past 50 years.

Yet you call "fascist" and "sexually frustrated" anyone who dares to withhold "love and fidelity" to the Novus Ordo!

Secondly, there was no such thing as the "Dark Ages", and if you think that the Catholic Church was in the "Dark Ages" for its entire history until the "New Pentecost" of the imposition of a liturgy manufactured by a committee of "experts" in 1970, then you need to get your nose out of the National "Catholic" Reporter.

I attended one and it didn't do anything for me. I still stand by the Novus Ordo as a good and spiritually enriching liturgy which satisfies my desire to communion with God. The Latin mass and mentality go back to the Dark Ages and it would be deadly for the Church to re embrace it after all that we have been through for the past 50 years.

Well, if the Mass is all about satisfying one's desires, why are you so hostile and offensive towards Catholics who just wish to satisfy their own desires to worship the way the saints for century upon century worshiped?

My mother's family left the RCC around 1970, when they suppressed the Tridentine Mass and made other changes. I don't think this stuff had even happened yet! But these later developments, coupled with the earlier abuses, were what led me to leave the RCC, because I realized that the true church would never be allowed by God to fall into such disgrace.

It is true. A lot of people have left the RCC because of the post Vatican II changes and some of the Masses which have been seen.

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

For many years I was deeply distressed over what happened to the RCC after V2, and I still am; to the point where I finally in anger decided that the true church was nowhere to be found...the Tridentine Mass kept vanishing from my locale, and although I'd found the Eastern Catholics, we had to move and there wasn't one anywhere near our new home. Now, many years later, I'm grateful for it all because it led me to the Orthodox Church. And now that I understand the diference between how RCs view church authority and how Orthodox do, I realize which is the true Church. The true church did not vanish, the gates of hell did not prevail against it. The true Church is that pearl of great price, and God did not allow me to find Her until after I had traveled very far. It is the gift He held out for the very end.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 08:48:41 AM by Xenia1918 »

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"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them. Both the Catholics and the mainline protestants were affected by the same forces, albeit to different degrees and to somewhat different effect. The main force was that which brought fundamentalism into being a lot earlier: the confrontation with modernisms of all kinds. Now, I think to some degree they made the right decision to make a response. The notion of liturgical reform was not foreign; the Tridentine mass itself arose out of the counterreformation reforms. Likewise, the aesthetics of the mass and the architecture in which it was said were not isolated from the surrounding culture.

However, the mess they got was the result of several surrounding circumstances. Far and away the most important was that the Constantinian church-state no longer existed anywhere. American culture had never been Catholic, and the mainline Baptodisterian churches were beginning to lose their grip on the culture; continental culture was secularized to some greater or lesser degree almost everywhere-- lesser perhaps in Italy, but distinctly anti-clerical in France, for example. The real possibility of losing out, not the the Protestants, but to secularism, began to become apparent; recovering the unchurched Catholic started to become a factor in their thinking. The second factor was the the cultural aesthetic of the era was, not to put too fine a point on it, disastrous. It pretty well guaranteed that whatever changes they did were going to be, to some degree or another, utilitarian if not downright ugly.

The one important thing that could be described as a Protestantization was a change in the attitude of how the laity was supposed to relate to the mass. Protestants had, at least in theory, committed themselves to a participatory view of the laity; you were supposed to pay attention. Catholics by contrast were still possessed of a late medieval piety (which indeed grew more exaggerated) in which the important point was simply to be there. You weren't expected to follow along, or partake (at least not that often). This in large part is what allowed Latin to persist, and also why the Protestants uniformly dumped it in favor of the vernacular. Come Vat II, and the Catholic hierarchy decided that this needed reformation. And therefore Latin had to go.

Rome's thinking really didn't represent any fear of Protestants. Indeed, there were numerous Protestant (and Orthodox) "observers", and the not-all-that-secret-truth was that the RC and Anglican liturgists had been talking to each other for years.

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them. Both the Catholics and the mainline protestants were affected by the same forces, albeit to different degrees and to somewhat different effect. The main force was that which brought fundamentalism into being a lot earlier: the confrontation with modernisms of all kinds. Now, I think to some degree they made the right decision to make a response. The notion of liturgical reform was not foreign; the Tridentine mass itself arose out of the counterreformation reforms. Likewise, the aesthetics of the mass and the architecture in which it was said were not isolated from the surrounding culture.

However, the mess they got was the result of several surrounding circumstances. Far and away the most important was that the Constantinian church-state no longer existed anywhere. American culture had never been Catholic, and the mainline Baptodisterian churches were beginning to lose their grip on the culture; continental culture was secularized to some greater or lesser degree almost everywhere-- lesser perhaps in Italy, but distinctly anti-clerical in France, for example. The real possibility of losing out, not the the Protestants, but to secularism, began to become apparent; recovering the unchurched Catholic started to become a factor in their thinking. The second factor was the the cultural aesthetic of the era was, not to put too fine a point on it, disastrous. It pretty well guaranteed that whatever changes they did were going to be, to some degree or another, utilitarian if not downright ugly.

The one important thing that could be described as a Protestantization was a change in the attitude of how the laity was supposed to relate to the mass. Protestants had, at least in theory, committed themselves to a participatory view of the laity; you were supposed to pay attention. Catholics by contrast were still possessed of a late medieval piety (which indeed grew more exaggerated) in which the important point was simply to be there. You weren't expected to follow along, or partake (at least not that often). This in large part is what allowed Latin to persist, and also why the Protestants uniformly dumped it in favor of the vernacular. Come Vat II, and the Catholic hierarchy decided that this needed reformation. And therefore Latin had to go.

Rome's thinking really didn't represent any fear of Protestants. Indeed, there were numerous Protestant (and Orthodox) "observers", and the not-all-that-secret-truth was that the RC and Anglican liturgists had been talking to each other for years.

The entire "Paris school" period included the Orthodox, Father Boris Bobrinskoy had a particular interest in liturgical renewal, as did Father Alexander Schmemann, among others less well known.

The fact of the matter is that the eventual shape of the liturgy that is now fondly known as the NO liturgy was not a mandate of Vatican II. However it is an approved liturgy and in that light should be respected as the ordinary liturgy of the Roman rite.

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

I'd really like some specifics here if you don't mind. Text and structure comparisons, please.

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

The United Methodist Church that I attended as a child had a praise band. The Roman Catholic parish that I belong to now has an organ and a choir, but that's it. Fine with me, I prefer more traditional sounding Church music. I think growing up visiting various charismatic and pentecostal churches really gave me an appreciation for traditional hymns.

No, the ability of the bishop to dismiss priests who allow liturgical abuses.

For pity's sake.

Oh I know what you meant. It's just we've gone over this topic of liturgical abuses in the Catholic Church about a zillion times, and I really don't see any point to rehashing all that is "wrong" with the Catholic Church. It is hurtful to our Catholic friends, and doesn't aid in terms of charity or developing relationships with the Orthodox.

And I'm in a silly mood, and it seemed like a good excuse to insert some Python into the conversation.

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

Many years back I worked for the LCA (Lutheran Church in America), which has since merged with the ELC to become the ELCA. I aattended a few Lutheran services and they really did remind me of the novus ordo RC mass.

Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

The United Methodist Church that I attended as a child had a praise band. The Roman Catholic parish that I belong to now has an organ and a choir, but that's it. Fine with me, I prefer more traditional sounding Church music. I think growing up visiting various charismatic and pentecostal churches really gave me an appreciation for traditional hymns.

I felt the same. For some reason at my old Methodist church they wouldn't accept a praise band when I was there, but would have a "praise and worship service" on Sunday nights (what were they doing Sunday morning? Sit and Veg worship?) The RC parish I attended for a while had one and so did the Maronite parish but only at the Sunday morning DL, Saturday night it was not allowed.

In Christ,Andrew

Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

I'd really like some specifics here if you don't mind. Text and structure comparisons, please.

I'll have to get that to you when I get home. I'm at work right now. However, I don't have any official documents to point to as any Methodist minister (or ministress) could structure their service however they want. It was changed with each new pastor when I was there. :/ I'll grab my parents bulletin and copy it over for you.

In Christ,Andrew

Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

Many years back I worked for the LCA (Lutheran Church in America), which has since merged with the ELC to become the ELCA. I aattended a few Lutheran services and they really did remind me of the novus ordo RC mass.

The structural similarities among the Anglican, Lutheran and Catholic liturgies is centuries old.

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

I'd really like some specifics here if you don't mind. Text and structure comparisons, please.

I'll have to get that to you when I get home. I'm at work right now. However, I don't have any official documents to point to as any Methodist minister (or ministress) could structure their service however they want. It was changed with each new pastor when I was there. :/ I'll grab my parents bulletin and copy it over for you.

In Christ,Andrew

I am fairly familiar with Methodism. I've done some formal research on the African Methodist Episcopal Church in this country. As you note the similarities between Methodist services and Lutheral, Anglican and Catholic liturgies is ephemeral...

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

I'd really like some specifics here if you don't mind. Text and structure comparisons, please.

I'll have to get that to you when I get home. I'm at work right now. However, I don't have any official documents to point to as any Methodist minister (or ministress) could structure their service however they want. It was changed with each new pastor when I was there. :/ I'll grab my parents bulletin and copy it over for you.

In Christ,Andrew

I am fairly familiar with Methodism. I've done some formal research on the African Methodist Episcopal Church in this country. As you note the similarities between Methodist services and Lutheral, Anglican and Catholic liturgies is ephemeral...

They're a bit of a different animal than from the United Methodists, though they're apparently "in communion" with them, whatever that means to a Methodist.

It looks like my old church is trying to make a fool out of me as apparently they changed their worship structure again! (surprise!) :p For about 6 months or so, it was very close to a NO mass complete with an OT reading, Psalm, Epistle and Gospel along with the Creed. I'll update in the future when they come up with another.

I'll try to find one of their more recent bulletins, but this was from last Sunday. Gotta love Protestant development!

In Christ,Andrew

Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

I'd really like some specifics here if you don't mind. Text and structure comparisons, please.

I'll have to get that to you when I get home. I'm at work right now. However, I don't have any official documents to point to as any Methodist minister (or ministress) could structure their service however they want. It was changed with each new pastor when I was there. :/ I'll grab my parents bulletin and copy it over for you.

In Christ,Andrew

I am fairly familiar with Methodism. I've done some formal research on the African Methodist Episcopal Church in this country. As you note the similarities between Methodist services and Lutheral, Anglican and Catholic liturgies is ephemeral...

They're a bit of a different animal than from the United Methodists, though they're apparently "in communion" with them, whatever that means to a Methodist.

It looks like my old church is trying to make a fool out of me as apparently they changed their worship structure again! (surprise!) :p For about 6 months or so, it was very close to a NO mass complete with an OT reading, Psalm, Epistle and Gospel along with the Creed. I'll update in the future when they come up with another.

Are you saying here that the Catholic Church had fallen into the desolate wilderness after the changes of Vatican II ?

Liturgically, not AT Vatican II but AFTER Vatican II, yes, the Roman liturgy has been in crisis.

I think, though, that the roots of many of today's problems actually pre-date Vatican II. Sort of like when a nice-looking tree suddenly falls to the ground, because inside it hasn't been sound for some time.

They don't, when they find out about them. When these are reported to the bishop, they are generally stopped and often the priest is removed. It remains up to someone in the parish to contact the bishop. The RCC church is widespread enough that it's difficult to root out these types of people until after the incident has already happened. Even the most dedicated of archbishops can't be everywhere at once.

Exactly. I think people forget how big we are. How about over 4,000 bishops and half a million priests, hundreds of millions upon hundreds of millions of faithful, spread across every country and nearly every culture on the globe.

Indeed. I really don't think it's strange that out of all that there's an occasional (that's really what we're talking about here after all) clown mass or puppet mass.

What more surprising, I think, is that the Orthodox Church (which is about 25% or 30% of the size of the Catholic Church, but still quite large) doesn't have such things.

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

I'd really like some specifics here if you don't mind. Text and structure comparisons, please.

I'll have to get that to you when I get home. I'm at work right now. However, I don't have any official documents to point to as any Methodist minister (or ministress) could structure their service however they want. It was changed with each new pastor when I was there. :/ I'll grab my parents bulletin and copy it over for you.

In Christ,Andrew

I am fairly familiar with Methodism. I've done some formal research on the African Methodist Episcopal Church in this country. As you note the similarities between Methodist services and Lutheral, Anglican and Catholic liturgies is ephemeral...

They're a bit of a different animal than from the United Methodists, though they're apparently "in communion" with them, whatever that means to a Methodist.

It looks like my old church is trying to make a fool out of me as apparently they changed their worship structure again! (surprise!) :p For about 6 months or so, it was very close to a NO mass complete with an OT reading, Psalm, Epistle and Gospel along with the Creed. I'll update in the future when they come up with another.

Are you saying here that the Catholic Church had fallen into the desolate wilderness after the changes of Vatican II ?

Liturgically, not AT Vatican II but AFTER Vatican II, yes, the Roman liturgy has been in crisis.

I think, though, that the roots of many of today's problems actually pre-date Vatican II. Sort of like when a nice-looking tree suddenly falls to the ground, because inside it hasn't been sound for some time.

In many areas, it has indeed been a wilderness. I like to refer to the crisis as the West's version of Iconoclasm. 13 centuries later but just as destructive.

Good point.

Pope Pius X in 1908, I think it wasm wrote a Papal encyclical attacking modernism. Why did he feel a need to do that in 1908, unless the evil had already penetrated the church?

Logged

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

What the RCC had intended backfired. They wanted to protestantize the Mass in the hopes of bringing the (mainline) Protestants back to Rome, but all it did was drive many, many RCs away....many to the traditionalist movement that was in the catacombs of the 1970s (skulking around like fugitives, having Masses in Ramada Inns, with priests who had to fly or drive from many miles away)....or to Eastern Catholicism (because they left pro vobis et pro multis in), or simply to non-observancy.

Um, not quite.

I don't know how much experience you have of Protestant services before the 1970s, but I can tell you that the NO rite doesn't look much like any of them....

It is somewhat similar to the service in an Episcopal Church I visited recently on the occasion of someone's death.

I found it to be similar to my former Methodist church, except the RC church I attended had a praise band.

In Christ,Andrew

I'd really like some specifics here if you don't mind. Text and structure comparisons, please.

I'll have to get that to you when I get home. I'm at work right now. However, I don't have any official documents to point to as any Methodist minister (or ministress) could structure their service however they want. It was changed with each new pastor when I was there. :/ I'll grab my parents bulletin and copy it over for you.

In Christ,Andrew

I am fairly familiar with Methodism. I've done some formal research on the African Methodist Episcopal Church in this country. As you note the similarities between Methodist services and Lutheral, Anglican and Catholic liturgies is ephemeral...

They're a bit of a different animal than from the United Methodists, though they're apparently "in communion" with them, whatever that means to a Methodist.

It looks like my old church is trying to make a fool out of me as apparently they changed their worship structure again! (surprise!) :p For about 6 months or so, it was very close to a NO mass complete with an OT reading, Psalm, Epistle and Gospel along with the Creed. I'll update in the future when they come up with another.

I'll try to find one of their more recent bulletins, but this was from last Sunday. Gotta love Protestant development!

In Christ,Andrew

When you say "7. Passing of the Peace" do you mean the way the Maronites do it?

I doubt it. When I was last there 5 years or so ago it was just this 5 minute period where everyone in congregation shakes hands or hugs each other and asks about their children. More or less social time

In Christ,Andrew

Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos