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A candid conversation with the father of modern
jiu-jitsu about heavy punches, cowardly men, punches, and sex for
procreation

Introduction

In the world of martial arts there is no doubt that
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu possess his own name of Gracie. Trying to draw a
genealogical tree of his family is a big work. Counting the number of
children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great nephews and
nieces, who have inherited the name "Gracie", it is estimated
that the enormous clan of Helio Gracie, the sole living patriarch
of the family, today with 88 years old, reaches the mark of 150 people.
"I don't know even half of them." He himself attributes to the
creation of the techniques that revolutionized jiu-jitsu and brought his
family not only a lot of money, but also success and fame too.

Helio Gracie is the father of three champions in the
world of jiu-jitsu: Rickson and Royce, who live in the United States,
and Roiler [Royler] who owns an academy in Rio de Janeiro. Other
members of the family have reputations that are less respectable. One
case was registered in the Boletins de Correncia Policial. Ryan
Gracie, for example, nephew of Helio, was in prison in February of last
year [2000]. He was accused of stabbing a seller and also a jiu-jitsu
fighter Marcus Vinicius Rosa during a lambaerobica party in Rio.

He has already by accused of generalizations by
groups dedicated to the defense of homosexual rights. They consider that
the Gracie family has aggressive attitudes and preconceptions against
lesbians and gays. While condemning violence, Helio leaves no doubt
about his position. "I consider that homosexuality is an aberration
of nature." These are other "great truths" that are
presented as postulates by this friendly man. He is in the habit of
writing down his main thoughts. He keeps his reflections safe in a
briefcase. He records them when some controversial theme comes on the
agenda.

He provokes impetigo in proponents of political
correctness. ...."A woman is only independent if she has a cowardly
man". But it can't be thought that only minority traditional views
are the target of Helio's attack, jiu-jitsu people also receive his
jabs. Helio declared without mincing words that less intelligent
students learn the techniques of jiu-jitsu better and more quickly.
"Intelligent people think too much before executing".

PLAYBOY sent Dalila Magarian to interview Gracie.
Dalila was at the small farm in Itaipava, in Rio de Janeiro state, about
100 kilometers from the capital, where Helio has lived in retirement for
the last 8 years. She relates that " I have had
three encounters with Prof. Helio. Upon arriving at the farm, which is
located about 2 kilometers from the center of the city of Itaipava,
there is a sign saying "Nosso Vale [our valley], where I was
greeted, always by six Napolitan mastim dogs. The Professor appeared
next, with a wide smile and a strong open hand. We spent three days in
animated chatting always on the veranda with a view of an enormous
green pasture occupied by a few head of cattle. The total area, about
320,000 square meters, is a personal city for him and his 56 years old
wife, Vera. She made a legitimate cold cheese food which delighted me on
the second visit.

During the interview, Professor Helio surprised me
not only with his good disposition, but also with his speed of thought,
demonstrated himself to be a man little given to changing his ideas.
Various times it became evident that he was displeased and disgusted
with where jiu-jitsu is heading in Brazil. All of the documents for
legal residence in the United States are in order but still can't leave
his country to live with with his sons who are in the United States
because there is no one to buy his nice piece of land which is valued at
5 million reais. With opinions that are not always popular with
respect to sex and other small things, he demonstrates that he is not
afraid to say what he thinks. He says that "sex is only valid for
making children".

***.

1

PLAYBOY: Have you beaten up a lot of people?

HELIO: I had a bad temper in my adolescence. [laugh],
But I was also foolish. At times I would challenge someone who wasn't
anyone to me there. On one occasion I was convinced that a citizen was
looking at me strangely at the ball. I approached him closely and asked
if he was a fag. From that moment he looked at me as if he saw me for
the first time and I perceived that he was a clown. Another time, I took
a terrible thrashing from a guy who had 1,80 meters in height. I wasn't
prepared. These two occasions taught me a lesson. I discovered that
being brave and being a thug are different. I teach this in my classes.

2

PLAYBOY: What is the difference between the jiu-jitsu
you teach and the traditional jiu-jitsu?

HELIO: I adapted the jiu-jitsu to my characteristics.
I was weak and awkward, light [with 1,75 meters of height, and never
passing more than 63 kilos (138.6 lbs.)]. I could not manage to do what
my brother [Carlos] did, because his jiu-jitsu depended on strength and
ability. I had neither the one nor the other of those. Then I made that
which is known today. I perfected the flawed technique of my brother on
behalf of weaker people, using the principles of physics, like force and
the leverage. You, for example, can not lift a car with the strength of
your two arms, but with a jack you can lift a car. That's what I did. I
discovered techniques of leverage that optimize the force. These
modifications made a form of jiu-jitsu that is superior to the jiu-jitsu
that existed before that, and today the jiu-jitsu that the entire world
knows is my jiu-jitsu.

3

PLAYBOY: Then, to fight in jiu-jitsu it isn't
necessary to be strong?

HELIO: No, you are right. If you understand my method
of jiu-jitsu, you can give a thrashing to any man over there [laughs].
It isn't a matter of ability or strength, but of knowing how to use
correct leverage in a technique. With one finger, I have the capacity,
even at my age, of putting a man on the floor. You for example [he rises
and puts me to be in front of him. Then he makes it that I have two
hands around his neck. Two seconds later, I fall prey to an army-lock.]
{laughs]. It is a kind of mouse trap. A mouse trap doesn't chase the
mouse. But when the mouse puts his claws in the cheese, the trap closes.
Every form of aggression has a defense. It is the type of aggression
that defines what is the proper type of defensive technique.

4

PLAYBOY: What are the most common types of
aggression?

HELIO: There aren't ten different types of
aggression. It can be a punch, a kick, a head butt, a stick, a
knife.....In jiu-jitsu there are 100 types of defense for these
aggressions. For each type of attack, there are 3 or 4 types of defense.
Even me, who never weighed more than 63 kilos, have put on the floor men
who weighed 120 kilos [264 lbs.]. And this is what my son Royce
demonstrated in his fights in the Ultimate Fight [UFC}.

5

PLAYBOY: The Ultimate Fighting is one of the
inventions of the Gracie Family?

HELIO: Absolutely. The Ultimate Fight was invented by
my son Rorion. Everyone in the world who practices a martial art says
that it is his and is the best. So to know what is really the most
effective, my son decided to create the Ultimate. My other son, Royce,
defeated all challengers. He is the undefeated champion [this interview
was published February 2001].This impressed the Americans so that today
everyone in the world knows our jiu-jitsu, even the Japanese, who
invented fighting [laughs]. My family still has a strong tradition of
jiu-jitsu.

6

PLAYBOY: By the way, what is the origin of the
Gracie Family?

HELIO: My great grandfather, James Gracie, was
Scottish. He had a misunderstanding with the government there and
moved to Brazil. .His son, my grandfather Pedro, was a banker in Rio de
Janeiro and had 18 children, including my father. Almost all of them
were diplomats. My father Gastão, spoke five languages was going to
begin a job as a diplomat in Central America, but before he left for Belém
do Pará, he fell in love with my mother, Cesalina and so he stayed
where he was [and established himself as an importer of dynamite]. They
had five sons [Carlos, Oswaldo, Gastão Jr., Jorge, and HELIO] and three
daughters [Mary, Helena, and Ilka]. After the death of my grandfather
they left Belém and came to Rio.

7

PLAYBOY: Diplomacy and passion, it seems something
from the movies. But where did jiu-jitsu enter the scene?

HELIO: My brother Carlos [died in 1995 at age of 94
years], learned fighting with a Japanese teacher in Belem named Mitsuyo
Maeda, also known as Conde Koma, a former champion of jiu-jitsu [and a
commercial attaché from his country to Brazil]. He was a friend of my
father and knew of his concerns about his older sons' involvements in
street fighting. Maeda taught techniques to Carlos and began giving
lessons to his friend at the Bank of Brazil. He finished doing this as a
profession.

8

PLAYBOY: You were also a student of Maeda?

HELIO: No I was the youngest brother. I wasn't old
enough yet. I also didn't take lessons from Carlos even though I
considered him my second father. I was a student at the Colegio
Diocesano of Rio, and suffered from dizziness and fainting. So that no
one would know about that I managed to convince my mother to take me out
of school. It was the third year of primary school.. For close to 14
years I passed the entire day overhearing my brother giving lessons to
others. After one and a half years, I seemed like a parrot and could
repeat everything that he had explained to his students.. One day Carlos
was absent from the academia and I taught the classes in his place.
Then I resolved to adapt jiu-jitsu in my own way.

9

PLAYBOY]: Another part of the Gracie Family
attributes the success of jiu-jitsu to your brother Carlos. Were the two
lines of fighting different?

HELIO: Lines can not be drawn. It is liking comparing
an airplane of Santos-Dumont to a supersonic of today. Who today would
want to fly in an airplane of Santos-Dumont? Or who would want to ride
in a Ford made in 1930? What I mean is that I didn't invent jiu-jitsu.
But I took a piece of junk like a Santos-Dumont airplane. You're not
going to fly from here to that corner in that. There is no jiu-jitsu
that invented; I just improved it..

10

PLAYBOY: How came about your debut in the ring?

HELIO: I was 17 years old a fought with a Brazilian
boxing champion, Antônio Portugal. I beat him in 30 seconds. The boxer
threw a punch, I blocked, took him to the ground, mounted, and applied
an army-lock.

11

PLAYBOY: What other fights do you have to your
credit?

HELIO: One of them was against a Japanese, I. Ono,
from an academy in São Paulo. I was 37 at that time. The challenge
was for 20 minute rounds. When the first round was finished, I couldn't
see anything, I practically was fainted. My brother gave me ammonia to
smell. In the 2nd and 3rd rounds, I recuperated. The Japanese
ending up in a bad position and I kept him there. But he was lucky
because the gong sounded and I let him go. He spent the rest of the
rounds running away from me in the ring. There was no winner and no time
regulation but the fight made me famous.

PLAYBOY: You fought with the Japanese champion Yukio
Kato in 1951 in a fight that is still popular. How was that?

HELIO: A Japanese newspaper [Asahi Shimbun] sponsored
three Japanese champions to come to Brazil. One of them was Kato, who
challenged me. The first fight happened at Maracanã and didn't have a
winner after three rounds. The next time it was in Pacaeembu [in Sã o
Paulo] and I won in the second round. After him came Masahiko Kimura who
weighed 98 kilos [215.6 lbs.] and was undefeated in 50 years. The
President of the Republic Eurico Gaspar Dutra watched the fight. Kimura
said that if he didn't beat me within 3 minutes, the title would be
mine. I fought him for 15 minutes.

13

PLAYBOY] And took the title?

HELIO: I didn't win because my brother [Carlos] threw
in the towel for me when he saw that I had fallen victim to an
army-lock. Kimura tried to leave the ring. A judge asked me and I
confirmed, because I knew my brother had thrown in the towel and it
would have been dishonest to deny it. But I didn't consider that
[Kimura] had really beaten me [não me considerei
verdadeiramente vencido]

14

PLAYBOY: If you fought with the boxer Acelino da
Silva o Popó, would it be an easy fight?

HELIO: Popo is a colossus and I admire and respect
him. But for a good jiu-jitsu fighter there aren't any adversaries
practicing other fighting styles. He [Popó] would fall in 2
minutes. In a fight against jiu-jitsu, it is robbery. He would be
finished quickly, because I, withstanding his punches, would have my
hour. The resources of jiu-jitsu are many.

15

PLAYBOY: Have you been hurt in a fight.?

HELIO: Never. In compensation, I fell down off the
roof of my house while making some repairs and broke 4 ribs. [laughs].
And I fractured my leg when I had a bicycle accident. [laugh]. My first
official fight in Rio was in 1934 when I was 20 years old. It was
a vale tudo with punches and kicks. My adversary weighed 100 kilos [220
lbs.]. But I won [laughs].

16

PLAYBOY: What is the difference between jiu-jitsu and
vale tudo?

HELIO: Jiu-jitsu has rules with regard to weight,
belts, and time limits. A vale tudo is a brawl, where you can do what
you want. But it's apples and oranges. Jiu-jitsu is personal efficiency
to protest the weaker, which anyone can do. It is the force of leverage
against brute force.

17

PLAYBOY: And in a street fight, you were never
hurt?

HELIO: No [laugh]. One day my brother Carlos
was at the window of the academy and threw a piece of bread at a seller
of chickens. It was a prank, but he got annoyed and Carlos sent me down
to deal with the guy. I applied a choke and he stayed on the
sidewalk unconscious. When he regained consciousness he didn't remember
anything that had happened. When a person faints due to insufficient
blood to the brain a collateral effect is a type of amnesia. The person
remains out of it for a while [fica um tempo meio bobo].

18

PLAYBOY: Do you have any more memories about street
fights?

HELIO: I didn't have many because I was a fighter in
the ring, not a street fighter. But one other time a taxi driver blocked
my way in the street by the entrance to the door. . Or maybe I blocked
his way. Anyway, the discussion was finished.. We got out of the cars
and I left him sleeping on the sidewalk, with a strangle technique. I
got in my car and left.

19

PLAYBOY] You had only little fights like this?

HELIO: I had one other in Petropolis [the highland
region of Rio de Janeiro]. I was driving (or directing) a serviço de
operários in a building (construction site?) and a truck driver got out
of the cab of his vehicle wanting to fight after some abuse and
insolence. I also put him to sleep.

20

PLAYBOY: You never had fear of killing someone with a
choke?

HELIO: No. I know the exact point where to stop.
Before dying the subject will faint. He will die only if you keep the
pressure on his throat after than point. Chokes are my specialty. For
this I was famous in Japan. Due to my weak physical constitution I had
to nail my opponent quickly. When your throat is grabbed no one is
brave. Everyone sleeps very fast [laughs].

21

PLAYBOY: When is it valid to use jiu-jitsu
techniques?

HELIO: It is when after trying to have a civilized
conversation, the other person starts to get aggressive. You don't have
to strike the first blow. If you know it doesn't happen, you have
another chance to avoid a confrontation. Now, if he's already
become violent, you don't have a choice. It is self-defense so you will
be supported by the law.

22

PLAYBOY: Was this what led to your being placed
under arrest?

HELIO: It was 66 years ago. that I was involved in my
biggest trouble. A famous fighter in Brazil [a former luta livre
champion] Manoel Rufino dos Santos said that he was going to show the
world that we Gracies were nothing. It was at the Tijuca Tenis Clube of
Rio that I gave my answer to him. I arrived and said "I came to
answer the declaration that you made". He throw a punch and I took
him to the ground, with two fractures of his head, and a broken
clavicle, and blood spurting out. But it was a foolish act that I did.
Today I would never repeat such a thing.

23

PLAYBOY: And what happened?

HELIO: Criminal proceedings were started and I was
sentenced to 2 and a half years in detention. An appeal was made to the
Supreme Court [Supremo Tribunal]. My lawyer was Romero Neto. The
sentence was upheld, and the court said "today it was with Manoel
Rufino dos Santos. Tomorrow it will be us".

HELIO: I never was in jail. Two hours after the
supreme court confirmed my sentence, Getúlio [the President of Brazil [Getúlio
Vargas] pardoned me. One of our students, Rosalina Coelho Lisboa, whose
brother was an ambassador, was very close to Getúlio and intervened,
saying that it was unjust for such a youngster to be going to jail
because of a street fight. He was a good person and pardoned me. The
Supreme Court was demoralized [laughs]. After that I met Getúlio
several times. And I taught his son, Maneco.

25

Playboy: Your great nephew Ryan has also had problems
with the law, when he beat up a man and stabbed someone in a Rio
nightclub in February of last year, isn't that right?

HELIO: Considering everything it is lamentable. No
one is ignorant of the fact that currently the Gracie family is divided
into two parts. The first arises from Carlos Gracie, my brother, a man
of great qualities, bravery, tolerance, and unshakeable morality. His
only mistake was to have 21 children with five different women,
producing an enormous clan of more than 150 people, today without a
leader who can counsel, control, and orient. I don't understand that. In
a family with many people, there are people of every type. The second
part of the family is my part. with nine children, who ended up sending
Brazilian jiu-jitsu to the world. Now, to sell more copies (of magazines
and newspapers), anything that happens to anyone with a famous last name
gains distinction in the media. The editors are not concerned with
whether or not they are going to be implicating innocent people who
happen to have the same last name.

26

PLAYBOY: That isn't the question. The case was news
because it really was news. Ryan was accused of attempted murder and was
arrested and put in jail.

HELIO: My children have never been mixed up in
activities outside the law. More than that, I don't know how to respond.

27

PLAYBOY: Are you the type that doesn't make abuse in
the house?

HELIO: I'm the type of person who "doesn't let
even a shrimp through the net". If someone says something that I
disagree with, or that I don't like or that isn't true, I call them on
it.

[Prof. Helio use the expression "não deixe
passar camarão pela malha" which means to pay the attention to
even the small things.]

28

PLAYBOY: Give an example.

HELIO: My wife, has several times that I don't
remember more. Someone said something about me that was in error, I
request proof. Today you have so many people talking bullshit about the
Gracie family without knowing anything that it is difficult to correct
all lies.

29

PLAYBOY: Going to a more agreeable subject, is
jiu-jitsu favorable to sex?

HELIO: I can say that I've never had sex with a woman
without the purpose of reproduction. I also taught that to my sons and
various grand-sons. Never were fags When I was younger I could
have had a big succession of women, I was considered a national
celebrity, and all young girls were interested in me. I would give them
a little kiss, a hug, go around with them but I wouldn't go too far. I
always had will power.. When they wanted to get more heavy, I would
quickly ask them if they wanted to have my children, because for me that
was all I wanted were children. That stopped them right away
[laughs].

30

PLAYBOY: Where do you get the force of will to
resist?

HELIO: It came from my convictions and my
respect for nature. I dominated the impulse for pleasure by a question
of morality. I learned this from my brother Carlos, who was a
spiritualist.

31

PLAYBOY: Do you think sex is bad?

HELIO: I have nothing but approval for sex and love
between two people who want to do it.. But sex for the sake of sex is an
unnecessary expenditure of energy. The worst things is to have sex
without fulfilling nature's purpose. In other words, sex is the
instrument of procreation. I had a sister who was a nun [Mary, 85 years
old] who lived in the Congregation of Our Lady of Sion, in São Paulo.
That infuriated me. I would have preferred that she had been a bum. To
complete her mission on earth as a women. What does it serve to be
a virgin? A women with breasts, ovaries, who was born normally, should
have children. Not to do it goes against nature.

32

PLAYBOY: How many times have you had sex in
your life?

HELIO: [Pauses]. Look, I was a world champion who did
it only a little. In my estimation, I could have had sex with all of the
women in Brazil. But I never had relations with more than 10 women. And
I only did it with women who accepted the idea of having children.

33

PLAYBOY: So, according to your account, if you have
nine sons, you did it a little more than nine times.

HELIO: It wasn't like that either. There were times
when I did it all night long., because God didn't cooperate. So I did it
as many times as I wanted until [she] became pregnant, or when she
requested it. I proved best my abstinence by the number of women I
had sex with. There were ten women in total in my life. That was my
merit. I had 30 girlfriends, but I didn't give a kiss here a kiss there.

34

PLAYBOY: So to check, then did you depend on condoms?

HELIO: [Emphatically]. My God! I never used condoms.
There is no women in the world with whom I would ever use condoms. Not
even if she was the last women on earth. I would rather die without
doing it. My kids also don't use them and I have 28 grandkids.

35

PLAYBOY: I mean, are you and your sons immune to
AIDS?

HELIO: [Indignantly]. This business of AIDS is for
those who are involved in depravity and filth. None of my kids pretend
to be Don Juans {Exasperated]. Those who fear AIDS are those who have
sex with anyone. And those know have sex with just anyone, are in my
opinion, nothing more than dogs.

36

PLAYBOY: Have you ever been unable to get it
up? [O senhor ja broxou alguma vez?]

HELIO: No, that has never happened.

37

PLAYBOY: It is forbidden to have sex before a fight?

HELIO: Even a great champion can't maintain his
performance after a night of sex. Any champion suffers the effects of
sex.. It represents a great expenditure of energy. If sex serves to make
a human being, how much energy must be involved in that. It isn't
forbidden to have sex after a fight, but it can't be said to be
recommended. It is a question of good sense.

38

PLAYBOY: How many wives did you have you had?

HELIO: Two. I lived with my first wife, Margarida,
for 50 years. She had three sons [Rorion, Relson, and Rickson]. When she
died, I married my second wife Vera {who is 32 years younger than
Helio]. She gave me six more children. I am not a man who leaves women.

HELIO: Because "R" is a strong letter. It
is the most powerful letter. Which would you think is stronger,
"Orion" or "Rorion"? "Rorion" of course, I
think the same as my brother Carlos. His children have names that begin
with "R", "C", and "K".

40

PLAYBOY: Which of your sons is the best fighter?

HELIO: Technically they are all the same. Today
Rickson is introduced as the leader of the family because he is the
strongest, and weighs almost 90 kilos [198 lbs.}. Rorion was also
strong, but doesn't fight now but instead administers the academy and
career of his brother [Royce]. In the family everyone is a champion.

41

PLAYBOY: None of your sons entered professions?

HELIO: Rorion is also a lawyer and a good
administrator. But all the rest finished school and immediately
devoted themselves to jiu-jitsu.

42

PLAYBOY: Rorion is writing a book in your honor. What
do you desire to transmit with your history?

HELIO: The truth about jiu-jitsu. I have a grand
niece, Reylla, who is writing a book about my brother Carlos. I think
that it is very strange, because she was born when he was already almost
65 years old. She is going to end up writing a book without
fundamentals. listening to people who also don't know the facts. The
only one who is still living is me.. I believe that my book will
be more truthful. My book will try to do that.

Also,
more information in Reila [Reylla] Gracie's book, which Helio said
he expected to be "nonsense", here
(English synopsis and commentary by Roberto Pedreira).

43

PLAYBOY: Do you intend to read her book?

HELIO: I intend to, in order to read the nonsense
that she puts in it.

44

PLAYBOY: This seems a little like envy
(jealousy).

HELIO: It isn't like that. The truth is that Carlos
didn't put on his quimono to give classes to his children. The one who
taught them was me. Reyla is writing a book about a man who she didn't
know. It is very vague to write a book by interviewing people who didn't
know my brother. Each one talks, wants, thinks, but no one supplies
anything. She wants to use the Gracie name, but she doesn't know
anything about jiu-jitsu.

45

PLAYBOY: Rorion registered a patent for the name
Gracie for your jiu-jitsu in the United States. Is that still valid?

HELIO: He registered a patent for the name
Gracie as a method of teaching years before, to avoid that
Americans would trick other people by using our name. This patent is in
force for a long time but can't be renewed. The American
government denied renewal in consideration that today jiu-jitsu is a new
martial art. I agree, because this that is a recognition of my
technique. I received a certificate from the U.S. government
acknowledging me as the creator of the jiu-jitsu that is practiced
there.

46

PLAYBOY] Today, for self defense is it better to go
armed, or to learn jiu-jitsu?

HELIO: A revolver is a two-edged sword. If a robber
finds your weapon he can take it and use it against you. But the robber
can't see your jiu-jitsu and you run no risk of being disarmed. Never
use weapons.

[Prof. Helio uses the expression "uma arma de
doisgumes".]

47

PLAYBOY: How would you defend against an
assault?

HELIO: It depends. If it's just one guy, from a
reasonable distance, I'd take his revolver with one technique. But if
it's several armed assailants, I'd hand over everything that I had on me
at the time, because I'm not stupid. In these cases, it is foolish to
resist, because you are going to die. A thief is afraid, who doesn't
believe in himself, he only has his revolver. Any reaction and he shots
you right then and there. The danger of a Brazilian robber is his fear.
In my case, if I wanted to assault someone, I wouldn't need a revolver.
It would be enough to grab the victim's neck and take everything right
away.

48

PLAYBOY: After jiu-jitsu, what sport is most
effective for self-defense?

HELIO: Boxing. It has only one defect. It takes a
long time to be able to knock out an adversary {to develop the skills].
You have to hit him first. But a good boxer, in a fight, is excellent.
Now, to be a boxer you have to train a lot. In jiu-jitsu, 40 classes
with me are sufficient, two times a week, to subconsciously assimilate
everything..

49

PLAYBOY: What kind of student is the most work to
train?

HELIO: Without any question, intelligent students
[are most difficult].

50

PLAYBOY: Why?

HELIO: Because the intelligent student tends to get
lost if thought before executing the technique. With this preoccupation,
he ends up lost in thought and can't function. I want to give the
student good reflexes. The method that the crafty person wants to know
is that which hinders his reflexes. When he thinks that he understands,
he is going to want to do it the way he thinks it is supposed to be, not
the way that I taught. I mean, he will do everything wrong. A baby, a
young girl, an idiot are going to learn more quickly than an intelligent
person. A baby will just do it, not ask questions.

51

PLAYBOY: The, to be a good jiu-jitsu fighter, you
need to be stupid?

HELIO: It isn't that! [Angry]. Learning jiu-jitsu is
something for the subconscious, not for the consciousness. I don't teach
so that the student can know jiu-jitsu, I teach so that he can execute
jiu-jitsu. There is a difference. If I teach something to an intelligent
person, she will learn quickly because she puts it in memory. But the
good student can execute his jiu-jitsu without thinking.. If he stops to
look for what I knows in his memory, he is lost. It doesn't deal with
decorative movements, but rather with exact reflexes when an aggression
occurs. And aggression always occurs by surprise.

52

PLAYBOY: How do you resolve this kind of impasse. I
mean, how do you teach an intelligent student?

HELIO: I show them in practice that the power of
their intelligence won't serve them for nothing. I put them quickly on
the ground to let them know that the best way is to execute without
stopping to think.

53

PLAYBOY: And being human, by nature, he likes to
fight?

HELIO: Men are born to be warriors. They fight while
studying, working, supporting their family. But women were not born to
fight. Nowadays, women women fight in life because they don't have a men
to take care of her. It is for a woman to take care of the house. A man
was born to fight in life, a a women was born to take care of her
warrior.

54

PLAYBOY: What do you think about feminine
independence?

HELIO: Wait a minute [HELIO gets up a comes back with
a briefcase from which he takes out a manuscript and begins to read]:
"For me it is easy to diagnose the men who prefer independent
women: cafetões, [pimps], effeminate, lazy, and individuals with
weak and cowardly personalities, are the ones who like that kind of
women.. Nature did not create men and women by mistake, but for
each one to do her part. The man takes care of the woman and the woman
takes care of the children, who will be the men of tomorrow".
[returns the paper to the briefcase]. The problem with men's values
nowadays is that women, poor things, have no other option than to try to
be independent.

Note: If you read this translation of the Playboy
interview with Helio Gracie anywhere other than Global
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55

PLAYBOY: Isn't that extreme machoism?

HELIO: I don't consider it machoism. I am a man.
Machoism is a fashion.. A man who isn't macho isn't a man, in the same
way a women who isn't feminine isn't a women. Machoism, as far as I'm
concerned, is simply what it is to be a man.

56

PLAYBOY: And what about women who can do more?

HELIO: I'm not in favor of it. A women should take
care of her man. Now, when I look at a nude woman, I analyze
everything together, to see if she is well put together and in good
health. I am not thinking about sex, no. And to appreciate the natural
beauty. [pause]. The jiu-jitsu magazines lately are putting naked women
in together with sports. I don't approve. That is nothing to look at in
a fight. No girlfriend of mine would ever pose nude. Only if I was
a coward. [HELIO picks up a jiu-jitsu magazine and open to a foldout of
Feitceira,] Her boyfriend must have been a coward.

57

PLAYBOY: Her boyfriend was Vitor Belfort.

HELIO: Sad. He is a beginner in jiu-jitsu. He only
knows about fighting with rules. One time I had a talk with him on the
telephone.

58

PLAYBOY: Why?

HELIO: He talked bad about my son Royce. I called him
and asked him if he was disposed to test himself against my son. He
replied that he only fought for money and that is not my style. His
response did not please me. He demonstrated that he didn't have the
conviction of what he could do. He fights well, but he isn't an
efficient fighter. He was thinking like that until he had a sufficient
number of fights.

59

PLAYBOY: Who were some famous people who passed
through your academy?

HELIO: Mario Andreazza, ex Minister of Transport in
the gestao of President Medici, also former President of Brazil João
Baptista Fiqueiredo when he worked in the National Information Service [SNI]
which served the military dictatorship, and Roberto Marinho........

60

PLAYBOY: They were good fighters?

HELIO: More or less [smiles condescendingly]. These
men were always very busy, without time to train. They were also very
anxious.

61

PLAYBOY: Which of them was your best
student?

HELIO: Roberto Marinho was a reporter at that time
and was not truly dedicated to jiu-jitsu. He did it because it was a
fashion, due to a projection. .At that time in Brazil we didn't have
many important sports like we have now. At that time the press spent an
entire month talking exclusively about jiu-jitsu and Roberto wanted to
be in the middle of it.

62

PLAYBOY: And Figueiredo? How did he do?

HELIO: He was brought in by Mario Andreazza, also
because of the projection. He was full of enthusiasm when he began
learning jiu-jitsu and then he brought in all of the officials of the
SNI, including Figueiredo. He was a very strong man, but very tense. He
took 40 classes regularly and he left reasonably good. But I didn't know
him outside of the academy. I never had social contact with him. At
times he would say, "Helio I'm going to send for you to come to a
party at my house". But he never did. I think he forgot about it.
He was very busy.

63

PLAYBOY: Your family became rich from jiu-jitsu?

HELIO: We weren't rich. My children worked hard, here
and there, without a rest. We live well but we don't have a lot of
money. The expenses of the academies were also great. If we made
200,000, half of that went to taxes. My small farm (with 320,000 square
meters located in Itaipava in the hill country of Rio) was bought at a
time when land was cheap. I paid 400 reis.. Today it is very expensive
but no one has the money to buy. Therefore, we weren't then and still
aren't rich.

64

PLAYBOY: Despite the fame and success, you
declared that you would like for your sons to quit fighting. Why?

HELIO: In my youth I was filled with enthusiasm about
with my discoveries and began to fight to prove that they were good. I
wanted every Brazilian to know about jiu-jitsu. Today, it isn't
necessary to fight for idealism. I have nothing more to prove about the
validity of my techniques. So I advised my sons to stop fighting. They
are the ones who will decide. If they want to continue to fight in order
to make money, that's fine with me. Today even jiu-jitsu has become
commercial.

65

PLAYBOY: You have referred to academies that
are preparing thugs who always walk around with pit bulls at their side.

HELIO: These academies should not be open. It
is the government's fault, who doesn't examine the real conditions of
the schools. Today you can open an academy of jiu-jitsu without any
problem, and many times the owner doesn't even have a diploma.

66

PLAYBOY: These people help to associate jiu-jitsu
with violence?

HELIO: Absolutely. A real jiu-jitsu fighter does not
go around beating people down. Our defense is made to neutralize
aggression. This is a type of counter-advertising that uses the name of
our jiu-jitsu. Any nonsense that is done nowadays will soon be given the
name of the Gracie family.

67

PLAYBOY: Do you like to watch the films of
Jean-Claude Van Damme?

HELIO: It's pitiful.. He's only an artist, not a
fighter. But in a movie, a fight is beautiful. In movies, fights are all
choreographed, there is nothing to see with jiu-jitsu. My sons have
already taught actors like Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal, and Mel Gibson.
I like to watch. I don't have to think, the story is always the same.
When watching the "bang-bang" movies, the young hero always
beats the bad guys.

68

PLAYBOY: What is the secret of your long life and
good health?

HELIO: I always say I am old but not used up.. I am
88, but I wouldn't trade places with a man of 50. I never had bad habits
like smoking, drinking, or snacking between meals My palette is also
educated. I eat fish, cold cheese, fruits, and legumes, I only have
bread once a day. I don't mix cereals and I don't get fat from sugar. I
learned that from my brother and I haven't had a cold for 15 years. I
never had sex more than was necessary for reproduction. Nature is
not stupid. If you break the rules you will pay interest and penalties.
When the age is advanced it comes the time to calculate the debts. Those
who lacked will power will be with the donkeys in water[burros
n'agua].

End of Interview with HELIO GRACIE

From Brazil PLAYBOY February 2001, presented in this
English translation by GTR, January 1, 2005, corrected edition April 5,
2012 (Minor formatting revisions April 9, 2014).

Many thanks to Carlos Eduardo Loddo for calling GTR's
attention to this interview, providing the Portuguese text, and offering
many valuable hints and corrections on the translation.

And: HELIO
GRACIE reveals the TRUTH about his Legendary Fight with Masahiko
Kimura, and other topics, on GTR

This translation first
published January 1, 2005, Revised April 5, 2012 (two minor errors
corrected Question # 8 and a few small typographic errors elsewhere.)
Revised April 11, 2014 (minor typos etc.)

(c) 2005-2015, Roberto Pedreira, all rights reserved.

If you are enjoying this translation of the Playboy
(Brazilian edition) interview with Helio Gracie anywhere other than Global
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