I wonder about this from time to time, as my wife doesn't have a real interest in my collection and my kids have spoken for the one or two helmets they'd like.
What will happen to my collection? I don't want to 'dump' it on my wife when I die, but then I don't want to sell it either! So, I'm thinking of offering some of the helmets to museums (especially those museums associated with my alma-mater). Other than that, I think they'll be auctioned (or sold here) before I die and we'll get a nice trip or similar out of them. Others, as I said, are for my kids or even my wife if she wants one.
At 57, it's not time to act, but time to think about these things.

Anyone else wondering about such things or have ideas that are better than mine?

I see my collection, which includes a lot of stuff (like my cannon), is my wife's insurance policy. She has a good idea what it is worth and we know the right dealers that could get her a fair price. It won't be what I paid but some items have gone up so she would do OK.

Remember if you sell to most dealers you're going to get 50 percent of the value if you are lucky. Dealers are in it to make money. This is a fact my wife understands. I've joked if something happens to me she'll be a dealer full time.

Donating to a museum is good, but there are some issues. The museum could sell the items or just never display them. Some people are bothered by that fact. Another issue that I would worry about is tax liability if the item is sold. The IRS laws in America as I understand are this... you donate a helmet to museum and get a $1000 tax credit but then the museum sells the helmet a year later for $800. You now are on the hook for $200 of that credit potentially. So if I donate anything I specify it is donated under the terms that it can't be sold for 10 years. So that way you can't be affected as much.

I think the bigger concern now is that this stuff could see a major market correction. I don't know too many young collectors and SOS is a show where James and I are the "young guys" (and I'll be 47 by the next SOS).

I don't have kids, so my thought was to pool with other collectors in my old age and open an American Museum of Military History. I bet if a bunch of just threw the collections together it would be the basis for a truly world class museum.

I'm 53. And yes; I talked about this to "Missus Boss" before. And yes, she perfectly well knows what we payed ! She is well aware that you never, never, ever get back what you once payed !
But: this one is for sure: My Belgian OR Cuirassier helmet goes to the Museum in Leopoldsburg: "The Camp Beverloo Museum." The cuirass is waiting there for our helmet.
My wife just told me she will keep our collection together. Much too difficult to choose just this one-single-"favourite" helmet to keep.
No flea markets or garage sales.
The Brussels Army Museum would take them as a gift and store them in the cellar never to see daylight again.

Most of what goes into a museum will never see the light of day again, unless is is sold. There is nothing wrong with museums selling things that are donated, remember that if you give something away, it is no longer yours. I doubt that a clause limiting the sale for ten years would hold up in court.
I have a museum that has been after my collection, and I was considering selling it , as they had a wealthy benefactor who wanted the museum to have it. Unfortunately the curator moved on to a bigger museum and the replacement was not as stable as I would like, so I have postponed considering parting with the collection, and the wealthy benefactor is probably gone by now.
I can not afford to give away my collection, nor could Maggie afford to do so if I die, so I think that it will find its way back into the collector market eventually.

I'm 34, and I started to collect seriously only last 5 year's. But I think anyway let my children get my collection ,and let them decide is it garage find's or museum piece. Actually all in our life is maked for our native future. And I hope that it will be my insurance polic for my children

Museums scare the crap out of me. I had a family friend who was Airborne in WWII, I got a few pieces from him, but he donated a lot of it to a local museum. it has been over 30 years and none of it has ever seen the light of day. A few years ago a friend of mine got on the board of the museum and I asked him if I could come look at the military stuff they had. I got in and found tons of stuff, all packed up in the attic of the museum, most was ruined or close to it, from years of heat and cold. He told me they got more military stuff then they could ever display, and it was not a focus of the museum. I told him they should sell the stuff to fund what they wanted, and was told no they never sell anything. So in a few more years they may not have any of it left to salvage IMO. I found numerous Spiked helmets with covers that I remember seeing in the museum as a kid, great condition then, now helmets are all cracking from heat, and covers are all moth eaten.

I got some years before I need to part with the collection, but it will for sure not go to a museum.

Second, I have educated my sons on militaria and firearms. They can keep what they like and sell the rest.

Third, my large trench art collection will go to the WWI Museum in KC. They can sell them to tourists or display them - doesn't matter to me. What I have enjoyed about them is the look of so many together. Others may not feel that way. My boys will keep what they want - especially the Chateau Thierrys - and deliver the rest to KC.

There will be plenty of claimants for the shotguns. Fine as long as Grandpa's go to my sons. The rest - the Parkers, the Foxs, the Ithacas can go to whichever nephew stakes a claim I suppose

There will be a few call-outs - not sure who to give the Fosbery to. Or the Kriegsmarine HSC rig, or the matching Red9 , or the WG, or the Pryse or the ....wait a minute. That's right, I'll be dead! No worries!

James, that sounds like one poor museum. Having worked in a museum during college, I know the storage areas aren't always perfect, but the attic has to be the worst place to store just about anything! Most museums will store 80% or more of their collections, but most will also open the archives to the public upon request, so they're not really out of the light of day, you just have to request to see the items.
I was going to talk to the museum I'm thinking of to be sure they'll display the few I'd donate and they've a great reputation for being able to have quality items in quality display spaces. I don't know if they'll want them though, it's an art, rather than military, museum, but they're starting a modest arms collection and I wonder if they'll see the value in Imperial German headgear. Like I said, I'm thinking of it, haven't done it yet!

Gustaf wrote:Most of what goes into a museum will never see the light of day again, unless is is sold.

Or stolen. I know of several stories where a lot of the rare items were replaced by fakes, or just vanished. I would rather throw my collection in a ditch than give it to some museum just so some summer intern can steal what he wants.

One important thing is to be very careful if you loan anything to a museum, I have a friend who loaned a rare item to a museum, he wanted the item for a show and then to return it to the museum, the curator said no, and it went to court. When the loan was made, the museum did not have any "loan" documents, so they used an accession form but crossed out accession and wrote in loan. The judge sided with the museum.
If you loan anything to a museum, never use an altered form, always set a time limit and if you want you can extend the loan, but an open ended loan can be argued to be a donation.
In the 1950s, my grandmother loaned three rifles and a number of family artifacts to the National Park Service Museum at Lava Beds National Park. In the 60s, my uncle took a cousin to see the family artifacts and they were not in the museum, he asked the curator and he knew nothing about them. When my grandmother wrote to the head of the National Park Service and told them if they did not display the artifacts at the museum where they were pertinent, they should be returned to the family. The superintendent replied that they could do what ever they wanted with the artifacts as the were donated and he sent a copy of the first two pages of the accession records for proof. Unfortunately for the museum, the first ten entries were made in the same hand, the dates were ten years too early and my grandmother's signature was forged and spelled wrong. The superintendent became more compliant when these facts were brought to his attention. But it gets better, my grandmother said that she wanted the Indian artifacts back too (in that part of the country, the rock that was picked up in the farm fields were mostly stone tools used by the Native Modoc Indians) The superintendent told her that there was no way that she could identify witch rocks were hers. She told him that most had been around the house when the kids painted the house and most had blue paint dripped on them. The museum had used a blue marker to number the rocks in the beginning, so she ended up having to hire a truck to haul off three and a half tons of artifacts, I have about a ton in my possession, and over time the blue marker has faded from the rocks, recently I found one that still bore the blue crayon mark that was used to catalog it in the 50s.

Gustaf wrote:Most of what goes into a museum will never see the light of day again, unless is is sold.

Or stolen. I know of several stories where a lot of the rare items were replaced by fakes, or just vanished. I would rather throw my collection in a ditch than give it to some museum just so some summer intern can steal what he wants.

Also, let's not forget about 'de-accessing' by the museum, which means writing 'deaccessed' on the catalog card (or in the computer) and throwing the item into the trash. I have a resin copy of a JzP helmet that the museum didn't want and brought it home after it was placed in a garbage can... yeah, garbage picker Ron.
Yes, I agree, once in a museum, it's best to either have 100% paperwork in order for a loan, or just know it's gone and out of one's control.

Interesting topic. All of us have given it some thought. I actually have two pieces – the collection and the library. I am donating the library to the University of North Texas military history Center despite Jeff Wawro. My accountant reluctantly is going to have to claim a tax deduction for a non-cash donation in the 2015 taxes. This requires an appraisal. The IRS or the American tax folks have gotten quite a bit tighter on non-cash deductions in recent years. I remember donating a bunch of my papers several years ago for a nice tax deduction – not so easy anymore. A $500 limit is about all you can do without further documentation.

I understand all the problems with museums. I do have a nice hook up with the presidents of several history departments at universities and they seem to be rather interested in artifacts as well as books. But I do acknowledge the comment about "summer interns".

We have actually put into our will where the collection will go. Most of it will be sold by a specified individual – if he is still alive. I tend to agree with Peter on the market correction. It is funny but some of the great collections in the USA are moving back to Europe where there is money. It seems as though in the USA we have an aging collector community and as these individuals consider selling they always put these unreasonably high prices on what they have. As a result – no sale. I have mentioned unscrupulous dealers swooping in on widows before but what I was saying was misunderstood. It certainly is an issue.

VR/Joewww.pickelhauben.net
The British philosopher and historian R.G. Colligwood said, "it is not
the facts that are interesting in history, but the questions and their
answers - and these can never be fixed.

I hadn't really considered the 'tax deduction' aspect of a donation to a museum and it's still not a concern. If I find a museum that will display a few of the items I'd like to donate, then I'm good with that. I may be a fool, but thinking about a tax deduction isn't part of it. On the other hand, selling for market value would be, but since I didn't buy my collection as an investment (although it is), that doesn't bother me either. I guess, as usual, I'm a bit of an odd duck, but then, that's why my wife married me!

Gus, I don't actually know where 'state of confusion' is, apart from a long way from SOS, but given the strange things that happen there, it sounds more like the end of the 'yellow brick road' than 'the blue rocks road'.

Scotland is very staid by comparison. Leaving aside Chris Rattray of course.

Your ambulances are amazing, by the way. My wife wonders why anybody would want to recreate WW1 ambulances, but then she doesn't understand what I see in helmets!

Like all collectors, I have thought about this too. I may sell it myself before I check out, or let my kids have it after I'm gone, keep what they want, send the rest to auction. Let other collectors have the opportunity to enjoy the pieces as much as I have and the kids can have fun with the money.
Steve

Patrick, the State of Confusion is anywhere I hang my hat (and it is usually hanging on my head) I think most of the members here who have met me will confirm that.
I live an easy two day drive from SOS, or a easy 4 day drive, depending on how many short cuts I take. One year we tried to drive as much of the distance with out using freeways, we had to use freeway for the first 80 miles, as the only other roads are gravel and dirt, and we ended up an freeway for the last 60 or so miles, but managed to stay on two lane roads (and a few miles of gravel) for well over 90% of the drive.
You might mention to your wife that I am almost done with my second WWI ambulance, I am not sure how many I will build, but I do have another Ford chassis sitting in the yard.

Would that be Hayes' M1917? Nice little tank. (I'm at work and can't see the photos, but I'm guessing from your location that it might be him). I used to drive a friend's Sherman for him at re-enactments, as well as other armored tracked and wheeled. I've been in FT's and M1917's, but never got to drive one. I'd like to take both the M1917 (or FT) and an M103 for a spin.

poniatowski wrote:Would that be Hayes' M1917? Nice little tank. (I'm at work and can't see the photos, but I'm guessing from your location that it might be him). I used to drive a friend's Sherman for him at re-enactments, as well as other armored tracked and wheeled. I've been in FT's and M1917's, but never got to drive one. I'd like to take both the M1917 (or FT) and an M103 for a spin.

Ron

A funny story about the day this photo was taken, Hayes had pulled the tank out of his building and parked in on a hill to change the oil, when he got ready to start it, he had a friend (not me) put a block of wood behind it and then standing in front of it, he kicked it out of gear. It started moving slowly backward until it go to the block of wood and then did not stop. It crawled over the wood and rolled down the hill as Hayes was trying to hold it back. It looked like a futile effort, but it actually slowed it down enough that when it hit the level area just before the overhead door is slowed and only went about a foot through the door. For a moment, it looked like it would go through the door into the building and out the far wall onto the highway. It actually worked out pretty good, as the ducktail had been removed for storage, and was sitting right beside the tank when it stopped. So we did not have to carry it very far.

poniatowski wrote:Would that be Hayes' M1917? Nice little tank. (I'm at work and can't see the photos, but I'm guessing from your location that it might be him). I used to drive a friend's Sherman for him at re-enactments, as well as other armored tracked and wheeled. I've been in FT's and M1917's, but never got to drive one. I'd like to take both the M1917 (or FT) and an M103 for a spin.

Ron

A funny story about the day this photo was taken, Hayes had pulled the tank out of his building and parked in on a hill to change the oil, when he got ready to start it, he had a friend (not me) put a block of wood behind it and then standing in front of it, he kicked it out of gear. It started moving slowly backward until it go to the block of wood and then did not stop. It crawled over the wood and rolled down the hill as Hayes was trying to hold it back. It looked like a futile effort, but it actually slowed it down enough that when it hit the level area just before the overhead door is slowed and only went about a foot through the door. For a moment, it looked like it would go through the door into the building and out the far wall onto the highway. It actually worked out pretty good, as the ducktail had been removed for storage, and was sitting right beside the tank when it stopped. So we did not have to carry it very far.

LOL! Yes, one does not 'block' a tank's track (it's made to go over obstacles!). IF you want to 'block' it, you have to wedge it under a road wheel, which is easier on a modern tank with center or end guides. The way to do that on an M1917 would be to slide a triangular block between the last and next to last 'bogie' set... on each side. It would be even better to do two or three per side. Once done, start the tank, creep it forward and remove the blocks. Anyhoo, I bet Hayes had some choice language going during all of this!

Gustaf wrote:whoh! was about all he said until the tank came to a halt, then there was some muttering, Hayes may use colorful language sometimes, but I do not recall anything untoward being utter out loud.

I haven't seen him since the 1990's at an MVPA convention. I used to be more 'colorful' too, but gave it up. I really do like that tank and it's good to see it preserved (and running!).

An excellent discussion and one that has popped into my head ever since I turned 50....what to do with my treasures as old age creeps upon me? I will not be donating to any museum. Case in point, an old time (ex military) collector in our area had connections at the Base Borden military Museum which is about 30 min from Barrie. He was allowed to take home most of the pickelhauben that they had to restore/clean them. I know for a fact that "parts" were exchanged with repro items before he returned them. He died of cancer a few years back and his collection was sold.

I do not believe that most of the younger generation has any interest in our treasures, most have no family connection with WW 1 or WW 11. I have taught some rare adolescents who do have an inherent love of History and these things but they would be half a dozen out of 7,000+ that I have taught. I would also state that most of our membership here do have, either a father and a grandfather as in my case or some other immediate relation who fought in the wars. This explains our interest/connection.
I also do not see the younger generation having the disposable income to afford to have thousands of dollars sitting on shelves in the form of spiked hats. I have been advised by people far more financially acute than my self to sell, take the money and run. Unfortunately, I have a problem with that, at least at this stage in life. Most of us here are of the Baby Boomer generation, we were raised by survivors of the Great Depression who saved and had a hard time throwing anything away. We had/have good jobs with a lot more security/seniority than those who follow us. We have disposable income and can afford to collect.
My solution, is to allow each of my children to choose a helmet/s as a remembrance of my passion and love of History. The rest will be sold probably/hopefully by me. In the meantime, I intend to sell off the more common types and use that money to buy more rare helmet/items which I hope will hold their value despite a fall in demand. This may be pie in the sky but my collecting has been a huge positive in my life and I do not want to let that go until I am forced to do so probably by some health concern but none as yet. So, that is my rationalization at this point.
Perhaps I should sell out and reinvest the money in collectible computers with Logan to advise me??? At least I could still collect and there is a market for the first generation models which do appeal to generation X. My 2 cents worth anyway.

The museum I am thinking of is the Chazen Art Museum at UW Madison (my alma mater) for two or three of the helmets, which they might display in the area where they have just a few weapons and a Japanese armor. I don't really think they'll have an interest in them and will also check with the Stadt Historisches Museum in Berlin next time I'm there. I know enough about museums to tell them the donation is on the condition of them displaying the items, rather than storing, and have children who will check up and make the 'loan' permanent once they are on display. After that, it's up to the museum, not my children or wife, what happens. I won't care because, as stated, I'll be dead. I also have never donated to a museum for tax purposes, but to help their displays... it's just what I do.
My kids have already staked claims on some very nice helmets and I'm glad to see them interested. One Pickelhaube'r has asked for one and he still has first refusal when that one is sold.
Other than that, I'm still collecting as I can, which means right now I'm in there with the younger generation, no money! However, I agree 100% with Brian that kids coming up have little interest in this stuff and would put more value on a 'smart' phone than a GdK helmet. Very true indeed.

You really can't blame today's generation......if you are in your teens, you do not have much personal history time on the planet so how do you relate to old stuff? If older in your 20's or 30's you are carving out a career or raising young kids, trying to pay your bills. If you have a collector for a father then you will have been dragged out to shows and exposed to it but other than that, the vast majority have no reason to be interested.
Speaking of university...I had a History prof...an American from TN, I believe his name was Charles Wooley, I was in his office one day discussing an essay......he had 3 Hauben on top of a book case there. If memory serves, all were high domed with cruciform spike bases. Those were the first ones that I had ever seen in the flesh so to speak.

All the talk about today's generation not being interested in history made me think, was there ever a generation that was interested in history? As I recall, in a class of about 400 in high school there were only two other classmates who were interested in history, both lost interest as they got older. Those who have attended SOS should have observed that there is a fair percentage of young people attending, and there are some of the older dealers and collectors who are using the same strategy as drug dealers to get them hooked (give them some freebees or make discounts). If I encounter a kid that is interested, I try to make sure they have something in hand to remind them of that interest. There are some amazing kids coming along. It was a bunch of kids that made science fiction a thing of the past by not paying attention in school when their teachers tried to tell them what could not be done. I am sure that Douglas Adams never expected there would be a real "Hitchhiker's Guide" by now.

I think there is some interest in history. Video games and movies have helped a lot. Games like Medal of Honor and movies like Saving Private Ryan both managed to get the youth more interested in history. I see some young collectors, but the biggest hurdle is that this stuff costs a LOT of money.

I don't remember a lot of teenagers at shows when I was young, and today I do see a few younger collectors. At SOS last year there was a group of young collectors dressed in uniforms and their girlfriends/sisters(?) were dressed in 1940s clothing and nurse's uniforms. So I'm sure there will be collectors in the future.

My plan is that as my friends sell their collections I'll buy them. I think my future might be to be killed in a helmet avalanche!

Excellent point Peter, I had forgotten about the video games, probably because I have no interest in playing them, but of course my son Logan does. However, you are totally correct, so many are based in Historical times or WW 2 to modern warfare situations. There is no video game which can appeal to the young male that lacks violence and destruction, that is how we as males are wired as far as I am concerned. In addition, there are many many amazing kids just as there has always been but they are tuned into the technology of this era far more than we can ever hope to be. The successful video game must have some threat whether human or alien that has to be destroyed with weapons. We males are programmed to support and protect our wives and children, how else does the species survive?? This maleness can get warped and twisted in those who have had Fukd childhoods which can lead to evil things but the prime directive is for good. Popular movies have and will also generate interest amongst the youth at least the smarter ones. The dealers mentioned are smart....start the young ones at moderate levels in the hope that interest will grow with income and purchasing power. I hope that there are militaria collection shows 100 years after I am in the ground!

I do see a lot of young people in Ciney (the Belgian SOS), they bring their girls, who dress up in the fashion of 1945.They have complete stands now with this type of clothing, a solution to do this hobby together.
The 100 year anniversary of WWI can not be missed here, that helps, and once the seed is planted…
Schools visit museums like Flanders fields, and now a days it takes only a little effort to find old footage and info on the internet, it will have to replace hearing a familymembers stories.
Course most of the young collectors will give it up at a certain point, the pickelhaubes are looked at by the older guys, but we all started with bayonets and badges, the things we could afford.
The reason people quit can vary from meeting a partner who don’t like to see money spent this way ,starting a family ,or someone could get terribly disappointed by finding out his latest treasure is a fake, and not so much if the fake is an obvious one from e-bay ,but if it came from a dealer you thought you could trust.

I think many of you are attached personal connection with a war = interest. I encourage you to go to the Civil War show in Louisville each year and try, just try to buy a cap or tunic. You will be mortified at the prices. I go just to look as I cannot afford a Civil War anything. $50,000 is not unusual for a Confederate tunic. Then please go to Belgium or France and attempt to purchase a Napoleonic anything. Then go to Kassel and politely ask where all the France-Prussian uniforms and helmets are. I wish you luck with all three. People that collect those these wars (voraciously) are prepared to spend tens of thousands on a tunic. None of those people has ever met any man who fought in those wars. People, men in general I think it is fair to say, will develop an interest in a military period and collect to it. There will be Imperial German collectors paying astounding sums for good original items long after my family has laid me to rest and my bones are dust. Not all collectors are men like me working to raise a family. There is a good chunk of the population who are wealthy, or at least financiually very stable, who are interested, willing to spend the money to collect, and those people will always be around.

A very good point, I was interested in the Civil War when I was a kid, but even then the prices were insane. WWI stuff was considered junk and most of it would be in the junk boxes under the tables at gun shows. WWI uniforms were being worn for work and Viet Nam uniforms had not been made yet. As long as there is insanity, there will be collectors.

Actually, come to think of it, you're all correct. I don't think the percentage of young people interested in history has changed over the years, but the prices of Pickelhaube sure has! I was interested in tanks since age 5, when I used to play on an M3A3 Stuart in front of an American Legion. I really liked the machine. That got me into cheaper militaria and my father was also into history in general and watched documentaries on TV… and paid for part of my interest.
Model making also kept me interested in history of aviation, vehicles of all kinds, ships, etc. When I was 17, I joined our local National Guard unit, not because I was patriotic, but because I wanted to work on the M109 Howitzers they had. From there I went on to crew tanks and then volunteered at the Patton Museum as a driver and eventually instructor on WWII through modern vehicles. My wife went to a training event and got hooked as a half track driver, then crewed and drove in museum re-enactments. During this time, we met a LOT of young people interested in history, re-enactments and such. We even crewed tanks for a local collector and a museum that never got off the ground.

I think that sometimes we forget the effect of inflation etc. on militaria prices. When I saw my first haube for sale around 1970 it was marked at $50 , a small fortune at the time. The same haube now would be marked between $350-$500. Compare the prices of cars and housing between then and now and you will see that militaria prices are not that far out of line.