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Sometimes self-examination, does not lead to self-awareness among your peers. Discussions of mind/body awareness and a melding of spiritual/mind/body needs to be representative of some measurable success past self-delusion.
This is why "peer reviews" are a traditionally solid means of vetting people in budo and other professional venues. Some people truly lack the ability to see they are suffering for meaningful progress.
Anyone can SAY anything they want. Charles Manson thought he was spiritual...and a good martial artistist as well!
Anyhoo, Aikiweb, seminars, and get togethers have done a very good job toward meaningful peer review in our community.
Dan

Peers. Mmmmm. What is a peer to you? Vetting? What does that mean? Peer review? What would that be?

Many people wonder that too. They have their own conclusions too. It's a nice saying to say 'we welcome all' but in reality that's not the case.

If it bugs you that much you can pm me.

Peace.G.

For the record
1. I offered to come to you Graham and buy you dinner.
2. I have NEVER said I welcome all. Ever!
3. I have turned down many requests to train with me.
4. I am fairly picky about who I spend my time with and develop a relationship with-for many different reasons.
Lets let it end there. Any discussion is not for this thread.
Dan

Sometimes self-examination, does not lead to self-awareness among your peers. Discussions of mind/body awareness and a melding of spiritual/mind/body needs to be representative of some measurable success past self-delusion.
This is why "peer reviews" are a traditionally solid means of vetting people in budo and other professional venues. Some people truly lack the ability to see they are suffering for meaningful progress.
Anyone can SAY anything they want. Charles Manson thought he was spiritual...and a good martial artistist as well!
Anyhoo, Aikiweb, seminars, and get togethers have done a very good job toward meaningful peer review in our community.
Dan

Hi Dan,

I agree completely (and with George's post as well). Objective feedback is absolutely essential to making progress. My own growth has only happened when I have sought out teachers (and experiences) who will take me out my comfort zone.

Heat by the way is something physicists can explain and is physical energy. Physical manifestation. You can of course spiritually manifest it too. But more importantly here for the sake of showing a difference let me use the word space.

Physical space is one thing, described and defined by physics and in the three dimentional physical world. They may even go on theoretically to describe other universes and spaces. C'est la vie. But then there is spiritual space. Very important to recognise the difference and how they both fit in Aikido and in what way. Technical. Real. Not physical, not mental.

The point though, is that there is a recognizable effect someone can point to and which reliably demonstrates a quality (heat) or thing (vibrating atoms). There is some kind of mutually accessible experience which offers a definition. If there isn't a shared experience, it's impossible to relate, isn 't it? This is the point to describing the physical experience/result; not in suggesting a seperation of the spiritual and physical, but in finding commonality with which to help verify something about the effect/affector.
...I think. Je ne sais pas; c'est la vie.
Here's to shared understanding and positive individual growth for the sake of all.
All my best,
Matt

Peers. Mmmmm. What is a peer to you? Vetting? What does that mean? Peer review? What would that be?

I'd like to know.

Peace.G.

It applies to those who are doing a thing that others are doing as well. Implicit in that is a sort of standard. Hence, there is a group of peers (wanted or unwanted) to compare efforts and results with.
Most Aikido teachers I know and respect from around the world discuss certain people as rather unique for various reasons. Sometimes being considered unique is the highest form of flattery, others times it is severely dismissive, and derogatory of someones thoughts and efforts.
George, has made some interesting observations about certain peoples opinions on spiritual matters being as valuable as their successful movements and abilities.

It is a simple thing really. Some people want to be unique and think they are advanced. Your peers, and testing, tends to put you in your place and give you a reality check on what you thought you know and can actually do to and among peers in a group.

I agree completely (and with George's post as well). Objective feedback is absolutely essential to making progress. My own growth has only happened when I have sought out teachers (and experiences) who will take me out my comfort zone.

Thanks,

Don

Well....I obviously agree. The best lessons I learned were from the flat of my back (Jujutsu's middle name is "mistake.") and over long table discussions where I was wrong!!!

Failure to test and expose yourself to testing is the surest sign of a conscious self-doubt and is not the state of a truly developed mind...or spirit. Spirit/mind/body are inexorably intertwined but not mutually supportive. You can fail or be weak in any one.

In Budo, it is the shining examples of those more developed and balanced that we hope for and try to know and learn from. When balanced properly these things support each in a palpable and expressive way. There are reasons that some of the more advanced people are extraverts and charasmatic. They are transparant, even childlike sometimes yet very potent. Others are potent but are poorly developed emotionally and are largely ego driven, build organizations that suck up to them and they ...beyond all protestations to the contrary...really don't teach and help.

Some people simply have no place at this table. Some hide their lack, others are unaware until it is shown or exposed by others.
Dan

The point though, is that there is a recognizable effect someone can point to and which reliably demonstrates a quality (heat) or thing (vibrating atoms). There is some kind of mutually accessible experience which offers a definition. If there isn't a shared experience, it's impossible to relate, isn 't it? This is the point to describing the physical experience/result; not in suggesting a seperation of the spiritual and physical, but in finding commonality with which to help verify something about the effect/affector.
...I think. Je ne sais pas; c'est la vie.
Here's to shared understanding and positive individual growth for the sake of all.
All my best,
Matt

I agree. Such is my training. Funny thing is though I can get someone to do something physically and get them to do something spiritually and spot the difference. They have recognizable effects that they can point to and reliably demonstrate something.

By knowing the difference therefor one can separate and say spiritually do 'that' and watch the effect.

Separation, clear differentiation has to be there first in order to answer questions correctly. For instance I could ask you to lets say tighten your arm and clench your fist and punch forward with a quick retraction. Then I could ask you these questions. (I just made that one up by the way so there is no significance or anything special to learn from it)

1) How did that feel physically? (How did the body like it?)
2) How did that feel mentally? (how did the mind like it?)
3) How did that feel spiritually? (How did you like it?)

Could even go further and enquire how your soul liked it or how your heart like it. but it would have to be clear first the difference between each in order to give attention to and enquire and find out.

Sometimes self-examination, does not lead to self-awareness among your peers. Discussions of mind/body awareness and a melding of spiritual/mind/body needs to be representative of some measurable success past self-delusion.

Dan

OMG, I could actually feel (due to my increased ki awareness, of course) John Lennon and Judy Garland roll over in their graves during that rendition

That is just an excellent example to bring home the point that not everyone gets an 'A' regardless of what you think your talent is - honest feedback is essential to knowing where you are at - period!

Greg

p.s. Just curious if this guy did any performance for others prior to that show and why reality did not manifest itself before then.

It applies to those who are doing a thing that others are doing as well. Implicit in that is a sort of standard. Hence, there is a group of peers (wanted or unwanted) to compare efforts and results with.
Most Aikido teachers I know and respect from around the world discuss certain people as rather unique for various reasons. Sometimes being considered unique is the highest form of flattery, others times it is severely dismissive, and derogatory of someones thoughts and efforts.
George, has made some interesting observations about certain peoples opinions on spiritual matters being as valuable as their successful movements and abilities.

It is a simple thing really. Some people want to be unique and think they are advanced. Your peers, and testing, tends to put you in your place and give you a reality check on what you thought you know and can actually do to and among peers in a group.

Dan

So a peer is someone doing what you are doing. In the dictionary all definitions are about equal so actually it implies equal. That's also the meaning of it's root too. So someone of equal quality or ability etc.

There is another definition which relates to birth and rank like a duke, marquis, earl, count. So I doubt you mean that one although you may slip in that rank bit which would thus be wrong.

Nothing about standards though, sounds like an additive to me. A separate thing. Unless we are talking someone of equal standard being a peer.

So there are peers, people doing similar to me. We share the same goals and activity. That loosely makes us a kind of group.

Someone training to shoot targets, a sportsman, would thus have peers too. Yet someone training to shoot people, say a soldier or even a hitman, would be doing similar activity yet would be a different group, specifically yet generally the same group. Are they peers? Their goals are different, their reasons are different, their whole mentality is different.

Techniques are different too.

Are you my peer?

So the point is meeting peers is natural and we all do it. Meeting others is a different subject.

Being part of an organizational set approach to doing things is yet another subject. Those in it must follow that approach.

You definitely are unique so your reference to such seems like you are projecting some false view on me.

Nothing wrong with unique actually but the relationship to superiority or delusion is thus again misplaced I would say.

So I would say your peers are those who do internal arts i/p and i/s from a similar view to yours. Otherwise they are not your peers. They are something else.

So that's how I see it.

I've always trained and been tested by peers as has most everyone really.

I offer the following possible way to cut through the words to something else, possibly spiritual:

I ask myself "what does my soul want?" I follow this thread with my whole being to where ever it takes me. Instead of nice ideas I find answers that are so deeply personal I am reluctant to say. Later, when I engage in training, can I sustain any threads to this deep place?

If it is easy to say I may not be sharing anything very important.

Sincerely,

Don Hebert

I like it, good on you.

In regards to your reply to George and the point of objective feedback I would say that's obvious no?

So I would say your peers are those who do internal arts i/p and i/s from a similar view to yours. Otherwise they are not your peers. They are something else.

So that's how I see it.

I've always trained and been tested by peers as has most everyone really.

Peace.G..

Graham
Peer review is generally a process of having your concepts, such as a concept of design, ideas for a new process, any thing really....say the building of a bridge using new materials or what could be seen as unusual untested methods, designs or new combinations of all of these, looked at critically by any number of others. Peer review involves many folks of varied disciplines within an organization as anyone of these folks may "see" something that has been missed by the originator, or the close design group around that individual. Any number of experiences that an individual may had, training they have undergone...may lead to questions that raise issues that need to be addressed. These folks can be just months on the job and many years. Peer review is not turning to your brother, one of your students or very close friends and asking how am I doing.

Your approach to spiritual..... to Spiritual Aikido...... seems to be your unique combination of any number of pieces and as such could be subject to outside peer review to get an honest assessment of the effectiveness of what you do.

Graham
Peer review is generally a process of having your concepts, such as a concept of design, ideas for a new process, any thing really....say the building of a bridge using new materials or what could be seen as unusual untested methods, designs or new combinations of all of these, looked at critically by any number of others. Peer review involves many folks of varied disciplines within an organization as anyone of these folks may "see" something that has been missed by the originator, or the close design group around that individual. Any number of experiences that an individual may had, training they have undergone...may lead to questions that raise issues that need to be addressed. These folks can be just months on the job and many years. Peer review is not turning to your brother, one of your students or very close friends and asking how am I doing.

Your approach to spiritual..... to Spiritual Aikido...... seems to be your unique combination of any number of pieces and as such could be subject to outside peer review to get an honest assessment of the effectiveness of what you do.

Gary

Gary:

You spelled it out beautifully! Frankly speaking, Graham's continued avoidance of Dan's kind offer (and others for that matter) amounts to little more than...

That is just an excellent example to bring home the point that not everyone gets an 'A' regardless of what you think your talent is - honest feedback is essential to knowing where you are at - period!
Greg
p.s. Just curious if this guy did any performance for others prior to that show and why reality did not manifest itself before then.

Did you miss the best part?
The guitar player, (well, he really wasn't was he?) made a terrible showing, and at the end of the video he asks "Is that it, its over?"
He had no idea how incredibly inept he was.

Now tie it in to Aikido-well, any budo really. Peer review helps preserve the integrity of a group. Any single example, as well as any significant change in the accepts partices of a discipline, damages or alters the value of the whole. Which is why peer reviews were and are important. Idealy, people rose through the ranks and there was a self check. It is an inconsistant model but it offers a basic framework for review. We have all seen some really strange exceptions to that.
Interestingly, you can apply it to some very active spiritual figures.
Dan

At the end of the day, Budo is not about what you say, but what you can do without excuses.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Marc
I have not considered myself as a peer of Grahams. That's your job.
My offer to him was that regardless of his methodology he used to deliver the results he shows....I can fix the results he shows, just as I am for teachers, one after the other. I offered to help Aikido folks with an open hand for the simple reason that I think that Aikido-ka, while having a host of physical issues, are sincere in their pursuits. The understanding of the mind/body connection had an ultimate yield. It was never a nebulous, spiritual whos who, tooth fairy, kitchen sink endeavor. It is a mind/body technology. The men who pursued it were substantial.
So reading modern corruptions in understanding from people lacking any power whatsoever places them outside...looking in from the jump. It should disqualify them at the start, but the real problem is that so many in Aikido are so unaware and uneducated that they can't take part either. They see the physical issues with their apporach and they try to fix it with waza, movement and sadly- muscle. At least they see some of the failures in the model though.

The rather Ecumenical movement approach to group spirituality we are reading here does not apply to tried and true models of power building that exists in practice in Asia. Most notably those used for warriors, and the ones Ueshiba was quoting as his own methods for Aikido. Since the people lacking power don't truly have any idea of what it takes to produce power and aiki, what it looks like or feels like, or what to look for, they grasp at straws hoping for a positive outcome.

Interestingly, there actually was/is a spiritual/mind/body process with an ultimate yield that warriors and monks explored. None of what has been expressed here, has anything to do with that though. Ki as "universal energy" is just not going to get anyone there.
Dan

Did you miss the best part?
The guitar player, (well, he really wasn't was he?) made a terrible showing, and at the end of the video he asks "Is that it, its over?"
He had no idea how incredibly inept he was.

Dan

Naw, I did not miss it - that is the part I was referring to as an excellent example for the requirement for feedback - in a way, I feel sorry for the guy since it appears no one provided him honest feedback prior to the show so he could have avoided that embarrassment.

At the end of the day, Budo is not about what you say, but what you can do without excuses.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Hi Mark,

Truth told, I am not sure just how kind Dan's offer is.......
Secondly, your statement is surely true about Budo being what you can do without excuses.

I challenge everyone of us to take a step back and take a break from matching martial pedigrees and training methods and take a look at what we have accomplished with it. There is a lion within each one of us and it is itching to do something truly meaningful and creative.

I challenge you to find your greatest heartbreak and put your passion, your budo and your time into being the change you want to see in this world. And let those who do not try to be that lion, go sit in the nosebleed seats.

Interestingly those above the intersection had an awareness of the topic enough to score the highest, and of their awareness??? It helped them enjoy a lower expectation of themselves while they remained the achievers.
Oops...didn't mean to use terminology like score high and achieve, or get an "A."
Everyone being all equal, non-competative and the same and all...
I have noticed how everyone follows 5th kyus......
Dan

There have been quite a few people who have been vociferous in their denouncing of Dan before meeting him and he has been called any number of things; if you do some historical research on people's opinions of him online pre/post real world meeting you can see some evidence of this.

People go from being derogatory/dismissive or fairly offensive and insulting to a quite considerable change in their opinions and I've not come across anyone, on any of the forums I've browsed (though I've not read all by any means, by all means let me know if you know differently), where someone has met up with him and declared him to be anything less than a genuine person with some interesting "stuff" to offer.

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if he were anything other than pleasant in these meet ups.

Interestingly those above the intersection had an awareness of the topic enough to score the highest, and of their awareness??? It helped them enjoy a lower expectation of themselves while they remained the achievers.

I'm fairly sure this is a pretty important point.

If your belief was still way up above your ability you see yourself with less room for improvement; possibly justify slacking off and reducing your input because you already "know it all".

Keeping yourself of the opinion that you are "pretty good" but around 25% off of "the ceiling" or so means you can still see plenty space for growth and push for it.

The more you can do, the further you know you still can go, or something along those lines.

There have been quite a few people who have been vociferous in their denouncing of Dan before meeting him and he has been called any number of things; if you do some historical research on people's opinions of him online pre/post real world meeting you can see some evidence of this.

People go from being derogatory/dismissive or fairly offensive and insulting to a quite considerable change in their opinions and I've not come across anyone, on any of the forums I've browsed (though I've not read all by any means, by all means let me know if you know differently), where someone has met up with him and declared him to be anything less than a genuine person with some interesting "stuff" to offer.

I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about it if he were anything other than pleasant in these meet ups.

What is not said;
Menkyo, Shihan, 6th dans on down, BJJ champs, MMA people with fight records
No one
Not one...
of 1,100 people and 322 in my dojo over the years that I have met and crossed hands with have been able to handle what I am doing.

Everyone is having fun and has heard me say over and over that
"I am just another bum on the budo bus"
"Don't call me sensei"
"This stuff is out there, I'm not the only one."
And they have seen me...in open rooms.Bow at the feet of those I best....over and over.
And last and most important?
My efforts are bringing together people from many different budo...who by their own admission would never have trained together...into one room and they are becoming friends on and off the mats.

Here now, with Chris... My offer to Graham, despite all evidence to the contrary to show him what I am doing one-on-one with no one in the room and for free...my integrity, honesty, and fair handedness is questioned for no good reason....by yet another self proclaimed spiritual person!
Dan

There have been quite a few people who have been vociferous in their denouncing of Dan before meeting him and he has been called any number of things...

I've been to one of Dan's seminars, one of Howard's and one of Sam Chin's - I continue to call all three a number of things in private as I practice! As I said to Sam, "you all have ruined me! I used to think I was good and knew what I was doing!"