I understand that Israel has made mistakes in the past and hasn't always been right in what they've done. However, if you're going to criticize Israel for some of the things they've done, I don't see why you wouldn't also criticize Hamas for launching rockets into civilian areas of Israel. I haven't heard anyone condemn Hamas for killing innocent children in Israel. Again, I have to wonder what hatred for Israel has to do with supporting a non interventionist foreign policy.

What evidence do you have that they killed innocent people on purpose? What exactly is Israel supposed to do when Hamas starts firing rockets at them? Just sit back and take it and allow their citizens to be killed?

2. Israel should not intentionally goad Hamas into firing rockets. There were plenty of articles posted here on how Israel broke the cease-fire that caused Hamas to fire again, and led to Cast Lead. And if you're following this thread, I posted an article with plenty of evidence on how Israel broke the truce with Hamas again--which led to this outbreak of violence.

You buy into the narrative that Palestinians are basically evil monkeys flinging poo just because they can. You really don't think that there's something else to the story?

Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

I understand that Israel has made mistakes in the past and hasn't always been right in what they've done. However, if you're going to criticize Israel for some of the things they've done, I don't see why you wouldn't also criticize Hamas for launching rockets into civilian areas of Israel. I haven't heard anyone condemn Hamas for killing innocent children in Israel. Again, I have to wonder what hatred for Israel has to do with supporting a non interventionist foreign policy.

Earlier in this thread, criticism of those firing rockets:

Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty

...
All that being said, the people firing rockets are a-holes of the highest order. They fire at innocents, hoping for disproportionate retribution that will no doubt effect more innocents, so that they can gain some small measure of a political advantage. And people with this mindset exist on all sides.

Originally Posted by amy31416

All I can say in regards to this is that it's virtually impossible for them to aim rockets at military targets--doesn't make it right. Obviously. Now, more than ever--they need to take the high ground and go for an all-out media campaign to expose Israeli crimes (and the IDF DOES target innocent people, with regularity) and keep pushing for UN recognition (even though I think the UN sucks.) I just don't see any other way out of this mess for them.

No more rockets. ...

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

There are no lenses of perspective more distorted than those trained on Israel/Palestine. As far as I am concerned, partisans on both sides of this thing are blinded by prejudgement. The hard-core Palestine haters annoy me just as much as the hard-core Israel haters. The situation there now is so bent out of shape and distorted it's impossible for any one person to know the whole truth.

End all foreign aid, end all foreign involvement, and allow the American people to freely give of their own money in aid to the side they like. Stop acting like we have the authority to dictate what happens in the region, and it will in all probability work it's own way out soon enough without our involvement.

I know it's unpopular here, but I side with Israel in these disputes. That's Israel's land. They continually get attacked by racists. Israel isn't the instigator. If people stopped blowing themselves up and attacking Israel, there would be no retaliation. Does anyone really believe that Israel is going out of its way to take over the Middle East?

Gaza was NOT Israel's land prior to 1946, in 1947, in 1967, or now. It is illegally occupied territory with multiple UN resolutions asserting so.

'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

There are no lenses of perspective more distorted than those trained on Israel/Palestine. As far as I am concerned, partisans on both sides of this thing are blinded by prejudgement. The hard-core Palestine haters annoy me just as much as the hard-core Israel haters. The situation there now is so bent out of shape and distorted it's impossible for any one person to know the whole truth.

End all foreign aid, end all foreign involvement, and allow the American people to freely give of their own money in aid to the side they like. Stop acting like we have the authority to dictate what happens in the region, and it will in all probability work it's own way out soon enough without our involvement.

There are no lenses of perspective more distorted than those trained on Israel/Palestine. As far as I am concerned, partisans on both sides of this thing are blinded by prejudgement. The hard-core Palestine haters annoy me just as much as the hard-core Israel haters. The situation there now is so bent out of shape and distorted it's impossible for any one person to know the whole truth.

End all foreign aid, end all foreign involvement, and allow the American people to freely give of their own money in aid to the side they like. Stop acting like we have the authority to dictate what happens in the region, and it will in all probability work it's own way out soon enough without our involvement.

Dang Gunny I have to stop agreeing with you one of this days. Why we even debating what the HELL those countries are doing. Our only debate should be getting our country OUT!

War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

Again, I have to wonder what hatred for Israel has to do with supporting a non interventionist foreign policy.

I would love to have a non-interventionist Foreign Policy.
The Fact is,, we do not. We are in fact deeply involved,, up to our necks in it. It does affect me..

And as a Christian believer I find that supporting and advancing Satan's agenda is abhorrent.

I do see the Zionists as an invading and occupying force,, with full backing and collusion of the US and UN.

It is the Palestinians that are on the defensive.
Fighting an enemy that has them outgunned, outnumbered and has all the financing of the Rothschild Empire.

I don't want to support it,,, not at all and on several levels.

Last edited by pcosmar; 11-17-2012 at 05:20 PM.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

Yes,, and massive other governmental interests. Not to mention all the foreign agents in our government who get their orders from Israel.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

Dimona Radar Facility has a permanent staff in the hundreds.Port of Haifa serves as a landing point for our 6th fleet.

It was reported we sent 15,000 boys there back in January for indefinate deployment, not sure of their status.

You can bet every member of the IDF is wearing boots we paid for, shooting bullets we paid for, and manning equipment we paid for.

Last edited by presence; 11-17-2012 at 05:29 PM.

'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

Yes,, and massive other governmental interests. Not to mention all the foreign agents in our government who get their orders from Israel.

I didn't realize we actually have foreign bases in Israel. Like I said, I don't believe that we should have foreign military bases or give out foreign aid to any country. I simply support the right of Israel to defend itself.

Interesting. Then you also support the right of North Korea to defend itself??

How about the Drug Cartels? the Hells Angels?

I do believe in self defense. That is why I support the Right of Self Defense of the Palestinians. Many of whom had land and families there for several generations and hundreds of years.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

Israel defending self = bulldozing long standing muslim homes. in occupied lands, building settlement homes, waiting for militants to lob a warhead free home made rocket at their lost homes... then use US made 1000lb warhead on more muslim homes in "defense" before bulldozing them.... building settlements.... over and over again since 1947.

'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

Out of all of the outrages that occur, that's a pretty lame attempt at generating an emotional reaction. People are dying. People are being beaten. People's homes are being stolen or destroyed. People are being unfairly imprisoned. That picture looks like a teenager getting a time out for being a bad boy.

Oh I'd love to see the reaction if American troops tied a 13 year old American boy to their humvee to stop demonstrators from throwing things at them.

Sure I could find babies burned with white phosphorus but people might not want to see that and its probably against the rules.

Imagine your child being used as a human shield.

It outrages me, maybe because I haven't been desensitized to brown people being treated like $#@!.

End all foreign aid, end all foreign involvement, and allow the American people to freely give of their own money in aid to the side they like. Stop acting like we have the authority to dictate what happens in the region, and it will in all probability work it's own way out soon enough without our involvement.

And when that happens, I'll shut up about it.
So, I am going to be bitching about this injustice until Armageddon.

I didn't realize we actually have foreign bases in Israel. Like I said, I don't believe that we should have foreign military bases or give out foreign aid to any country. I simply support the right of Israel to defend itself.

So the Nazis had the right to defend themselves while they were occupying other people's land? Hell, so the Nazis had the right to genocide a certain group of people as long as they pretended it was self defense?

Out of all of the outrages that occur, that's a pretty lame attempt at generating an emotional reaction. People are dying. People are being beaten. People's homes are being stolen or destroyed. People are being unfairly imprisoned. That picture looks like a teenager getting a time out for being a bad boy.

"According to true Jewish values, your lives come before those of the enemy, whether he is a soldier or a civilian under protection. Therefore, you are forbidden from endangering your own life for the sake of the enemy, not even for a civilian," [Rabbi] Shapira declared.

'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

So the Nazis had the right to defend themselves while they were occupying other people's land? Hell, so the Nazis had the right to genocide a certain group of people as long as they pretended it was self defense?

Israel is defending their own land. I understand that the UN's decision to give this land to the Jewish people was controversial, but that's ancient history. If you think that was wrong, the United Nations deserves the blame for that, not the Jewish people. Why would the Jewish people not accept an offer to have their own homeland? It wouldn't have made any sense for them to turn down such an offer.

Israel is defending their own land. I understand that the UN's decision to give this land to the Jewish people was controversial, but that's ancient history. If you think that was wrong, the United Nations deserves the blame for that, not the Jewish people. Why would the Jewish people not accept an offer to have their own homeland? It wouldn't have made any sense for them to turn down such an offer.

Not ancient history.. Recent History.

Though Ancient texts warned of and foretold the occupation of the land by "Gog and Magog".

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004

Israel is defending their own land. I understand that the UN's decision to give this land to the Jewish people was controversial, but that's ancient history. If you think that was wrong, the United Nations deserves the blame for that, not the Jewish people. Why would the Jewish people not accept an offer to have their own homeland? It wouldn't have made any sense for them to turn down such an offer.

So let's say our current govt came to you and said, "hey, we are gonna give you your neighbors house, free and clear, you just have to throw them out and we'll get your back...you'd take it? Because, ya know it makes no sense to turn down such an offer.

Israel is defending their own land. I understand that the UN's decision to give this land to the Jewish people was controversial, but that's ancient history. If you think that was wrong, the United Nations deserves the blame for that, not the Jewish people. Why would the Jewish people not accept an offer to have their own homeland? It wouldn't have made any sense for them to turn down such an offer.

ANCIENT HISTORY???? My own uncles fought in the 48 war. I know a reason not to accept. Its on top of someone elses land. And Jews always had a home in Palestine to begin with. Many Jews stand against Israel.

If the government offers you your neighbors land you gonna just take it with government force because its free? Astounded by the logic here.

ANCIENT HISTORY???? My own uncles fought in the 48 war. I know a reason not to accept. Its on top of someone elses land. And Jews always had a home in Palestine to begin with. Many Jews stand against Israel.

If the government offers you your neighbors land you gonna just take it with government force because its free? Astounded by the logic here.

Edit: didn't even see specs' reply saying the same thing

Just because specs said the same thing doesn't make it any less true +rep to both for common sense