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The problem with the legal system is that the outcome is built on following legal rules and not necessarily a search for truth and justice.

Unfortunately in America, much of the legal system is not even based upon legal rules or law but on social engineering and social justice. Most contractors I know have been screwed at least once where they were on solid legal ground but ended up paying out to some rat b@ast@rd who just wanted to be a weenie and these liberal judges are all for sticking it to contractors in spite of the law or written contracts. Similar things happen in criminal courts.

To summarize, Martin is black, he was a thug and "racial slang", had a criminal history, was likely to end up in prison, statistically, and (my words here) deserved what he got.
That's what I see from your rants.
IMHO, you sound like a racist.

My rants? Haha. I think it is true that this story has national attention because it is about race. And the real big story is, "Are blacks going to get away with blaming whitey yet one more time or are blacks going to have to take responsibility for their actions"? I think that is the big story here, and I said that a year ago. The media, the prosecutors and Rev JJ and his ilk all want to continue to have the luxury of blaming whitey (in this case whitey = Hispanic guy) for political and financial reasons. That's why this story is bigger than just another homocide case or whatever it is. This is why the lib media insist on showing pictures of Martin as "sweet little innocent loving Treyvon". Blacks not being able to blame whites when things don't go their way? My goodness, they've been able to do that for the past 45 years. We can't have anybody trying to change that now can we?

No, I don't think Martin got what he deserved. He was an arrogant punk 17-year-old (of course I would refer to him as a stupid ******), but that doesn't mean he deserved to die. I was crazy enough as a 17-year-old, and it didn't cost me my life. I think Zimmerman could have handled it better. Zimmerman was mad that this black kid was walking around the hood acting weird. There had already been several break-ins, and Zim was determined to stop it. Treyvon Martin was certainly in the wrong hood at the wrong time. I wish the shooting had never happened.

But good thing Martin didn't attack an off-duty cop. Man they would rather shoot you than look at you--even in uniform too.

The point I am making Brian is one has a legal right (Constitutional) to protect them self or selves from danger. Using deadly force (IMO) should be the absolute last resort...

Those same laws that state you can protect yourself from danger apply to Trayvon too. If he saw someone (Zimmerman) following and approaching him in a dark, secluded area he may have felt threatened too. Furthermore, if he saw Zimmerman's gun then the only way to protect himself from that is to beat Zimmerman unconscious so he couldn't use his gun on him.

Now I will ask you a question: You are on a construction site, it is Friday, around 7-7:30 PM. Your wife drove over to pick you up, she is in the car (or truck) waiting for you. You are wrapping up some stuff, so you can send the customer a bill for either the weekly draw or close out the job. A couple of 'bad guys' (I really do not care what color, race, age, ethnicity, beliefs, attitude, etc they have) come along; and your gut screams in your head 'Oh sh*t, this is gonna be trouble'. You watch as they eye you and the site, then they split into different directions to surround you (you and the wifey are alone). You can see in their eyes they are cold and one of them is wild-eyed (like he is higher than a kite on something). There is an honest and real fear for your and your wifey's mortal life.
What are you gonna do? I guarantee you if you dial 911, it will be all over before the uniforms get there.

What are you gonna do to protect yourself and your wifey?

That sort of thing probably wouldn't happen on one of my sites but it might happen in a secluded area of a parking lot at night. But, I constantly keep my eyes open when I'm out. I would try to keep calm and get back to my truck. I would tell my wife to run them over if she had to. The same with me. If they got to me I would hope they would just take my money. Also I am constantly telling my wife and kids if someone tries to lure you into a car with a gun refuse to get in and take the bullet right there.

Now a question for you: If you saw those same guys approaching you and you felt threatened but had no evidence to substantiate your fear. IOW, they are not showing any weapons or acting threatening, but they are walking toward you. Will you draw your gun before they get too close or will you wait for them to prove their intentions before you draw down? The reason I ask is I've heard that you should not draw your weapon unless you are ready to use it. Since they are only walking toward you, would you draw on them? Remember, as soon as you draw on them, they have a right to draw on you since you made the first provocative move. If it was two or three CCW's against one, you might lose the draw. It would be another case of dead bodies when you could have just handed over your wallet.

BTW - I've been approached by shady people before at work. When they casually approach me I am looking for a weapon like my hammer which is usually right on my toolbelt.

Those same laws that state you can protect yourself from danger apply to Trayvon too. If he saw someone (Zimmerman) following and approaching him in a dark, secluded area he may have felt threatened too. Furthermore, if he saw Zimmerman's gun then the only way to protect himself from that is to beat Zimmerman unconscious so he couldn't use his gun on him.

That sort of thing probably wouldn't happen on one of my sites but it might happen in a secluded area of a parking lot at night. But, I constantly keep my eyes open when I'm out. I would try to keep calm and get back to my truck. I would tell my wife to run them over if she had to. The same with me. If they got to me I would hope they would just take my money. Also I am constantly telling my wife and kids if someone tries to lure you into a car with a gun refuse to get in and take the bullet right there.

Now a question for you: If you saw those same guys approaching you and you felt threatened but had no evidence to substantiate your fear. IOW, they are not showing any weapons or acting threatening, but they are walking toward you. Will you draw your gun before they get too close or will you wait for them to prove their intentions before you draw down? The reason I ask is I've heard that you should not draw your weapon unless you are ready to use it. Since they are only walking toward you, would you draw on them? Remember, as soon as you draw on them, they have a right to draw on you since you made the first provocative move. If it was two or three CCW's against one, you might lose the draw. It would be another case of dead bodies when you could have just handed over your wallet.

BTW - I've been approached by shady people before at work. When they casually approach me I am looking for a weapon like my hammer which is usually right on my toolbelt.

There ya go. Open carry hammer beats CCW anytime.
Or is that the sound of your family being victimized I hear?
Swing that hammer Brian!
Your family depends on it!

There ya go. Open carry hammer beats CCW anytime.
Or is that the sound of your family being victimized I hear?
Swing that hammer Brian!
Your family depends on it!

This post confuses me..... what is the point of it? As far as I know Brain has not said anything in this thread opposed to CCW, and before you go after me, I don't think you should need a permit to CCW.

The point of it is that Brian is more scared of CCW holders than the criminals who actually have bad intentions. He refuses to believe that a pistol is the answer to some situations. He would choose fighting it out with a hammer "or the closest weapon he could find" than entertain the idea of anyone being allowed to CCW.

I agree with you Elfshadow and don't think you should need a permit. However, in the real world that would then allow anyone, criminal or not, to carry. That has both good and bad implications of course.

I would like to see Brian take both CCW training and CCW self defense courses before commenting on what CCW permit holders would do or how they would react to situations.

Just like in the movies or western novels, you had to call out your intentions before coming into a camp and risk surprising someone. If you didn't you had a chance of getting shot as there were less people "willing" to chance being a victim than ones that were prepared to defend themselves.

A pistol when properly used can be an equalizing or dominating force in situations where you and yours would be dominated otherwise.
To properly use one requires training beyond the physical skill of "drawing down" and pulling the trigger. Brian has some good ideas about being aware of his surroundings and not getting trapped or surrounded but then what?

Preparedness comes from well thought out actions prior to situations.

People need to stand up and refuse to be victims or allow their "neighbors" to be victims either.

Those same laws that state you can protect yourself from danger apply to Trayvon too. If he saw someone (Zimmerman) following and approaching him in a dark, secluded area he may have felt threatened too. Furthermore, if he saw Zimmerman's gun then the only way to protect himself from that is to beat Zimmerman unconscious so he couldn't use his gun on him.

seriously? if you saw someone with a gun you would attack????? Perfect way to GET SHOT...ooh wait, isn't that what happened to Mr Z???

That sort of thing probably wouldn't happen on one of my sites but it might happen in a secluded area of a parking lot at night. But, I constantly keep my eyes open when I'm out. I would try to keep calm and get back to my truck. I would tell my wife to run them over if she had to. The same with me. If they got to me I would hope they would just take my money. Also I am constantly telling my wife and kids if someone tries to lure you into a car with a gun refuse to get in and take the bullet right there.

"HOPE, they would just take my money" HOPE!!!!! so you have no problem with risking your life in the HOPES that the bad guy won't hurt you

Now a question for you: If you saw those same guys approaching you and you felt threatened but had no evidence to substantiate your fear. IOW, they are not showing any weapons or acting threatening, but they are walking toward you. Will you draw your gun before they get too close or will you wait for them to prove their intentions before you draw down? The reason I ask is I've heard that you should not draw your weapon unless you are ready to use it. Since they are only walking toward you, would you draw on them? Remember, as soon as you draw on them, they have a right to draw on you since you made the first provocative move. If it was two or three CCW's against one, you might lose the draw. It would be another case of dead bodies when you could have just handed over your wallet.

first off, three guys approaching me isn't a threat. If I felt threatened or my "spider man" sense said to me 'something ain't right'. I could easily alter course and cross the street/row of car--whatever. However, depending on where I am (what part of town) situational awareness dictates that one should be prepared to take action. I carry a Ruger LCP in my back pocket, so I would have my hand in my pocket on the gun so I could draw it if necessary. Brandishing a weapon without provocation is illegal. If you do brandish a firearm, the other party can and probably will call the police and report "man with a gun". Guess whos in trouble now? If you live in an Open carry state, I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to attack a person with a firearm on their hip, but who knows? criminals are not that smart.

BTW - I've been approached by shady people before at work. When they casually approach me I am looking for a weapon like my hammer which is usually right on my toolbelt.

A pistol when properly used can be an equalizing or dominating force in situations where you and yours would be dominated otherwise.
To properly use one requires training beyond the physical skill of "drawing down" and pulling the trigger. Brian has some good ideas about being aware of his surroundings and not getting trapped or surrounded but then what?

Preparedness comes from well thought out actions prior to situations.

People need to stand up and refuse to be victims or allow their "neighbors" to be victims either.

it's estimated that a firearm is used 2.5 MILLION times in America for self defense, most of the time without a shot being fired. Its only an estimate because most of those incidences are not reported to authorities. I have brandished my gun 4 times. never fired a shot, and never called the police.