The mim p bass is kinda hit and miss interms of quality. From what I have heard but I never played one that felt bad. Definitely try the one you wanna buy before buying otherwise its a very nice bass. The epi thunderbird, ehhhhh. Im not a fan due to the neck dive, horrid lower fret acess and a dirty tone(not in a good way to me at least). If I had to pick p bass all the way.

The mim p bass is kinda hit and miss interms of quality. From what I have heard but I never played one that felt bad. Definitely try the one you wanna buy before buying otherwise its a very nice bass. The epi thunderbird, ehhhhh. Im not a fan due to the neck dive, horrid lower fret acess and a dirty tone(not in a good way to me at least). If I had to pick p bass all the way.

I absolutely love my Thunderbird. Move the strap button and the neck dive is gone, the only amp I haven't been able to get a good tone out of it on is a Fender Rumble 15 (and that's not exactly quality so go figure). The tone is awesome to me, and if it's not to you you can change pickups. The higher frets are a little hard to reach, but I've never needed any higher than 15 realistically so it never bothered me.

That being said, the P Bass is rather good too. I know most people hate Epi Thunderbirds here, but mine is rather great.

TBird you need to go in and play one for yourself. Some people love them, others hate them.MiM's I've heard mixed things, from what I can gather those who get good ones love them, but there's some real duds that come out there too. From what I can tell the Squier VMs aren't quite as good as a good MiM (pretty close though) but they have better QC so they're more consistent. The CVs are supposed to be equal or better than the MiMs and with better QC (again, more consistent).

You're kidding right?It's not just the type of wood, it's also the quality of the wood. One reason the VM/CV's are so inexpensive is because they use a lower grade of wood.There is a reason Fender doesn't use basswood or agathis. Basswood tends to be soft, even the higher grade cuts, and agathis is very cheap cuz even the higher grade stuff is really not all that great. This is why it's considered a poor mans mahogany.

Quote by Spaz91

In a passive P bass there's nothing to go better or worse. The CV and VM Squiers have better pickups.

That's a totally subjective comment. Now look at the pots and the wiring. Pots used in a MIM are higher quality, even the soldering in a MIM is done with more care.

Quote by Spaz91

Nope, they're made in pretty much the same conditions with no proper final check/setup.

The Squiers are made in pretty much Sweat shop conditions.Unendorsed video by an external source to a communal factory for many manufacturersFender MIM's are not.Video of a Fender endorsed tour of a factoryNotice how everone is wearing a face mask? Notice how much nicer the factory is compared to the Chinese one? Mexican working conditions (especially for US companies) is far better than the best Chinese factory.

You're saying that Fender is legitimately going to show you the worst parts of the factory, and how it runs on a day to day basis? Think about it, obviously they're going to do it up if they're running a tour.

Quote by Alucard817

I can tell a difference bewteen them. I guess that makes me a filthy liar then? Actually most of the commenters on that video could to. I guess they are all filthy liars as well?

Most of the people ON THIS SITE can hear a difference. Guess they're filthy liars?

cool it man, he shouldn't call you a filthy liar but you shouldn't react. I can only pick a slight difference, outside the strings. Also, the only fair test is a blind test and some of those were MiJ not MiM so it's not really a valid video to argue over.

TS, I think what can be gathered from the Squier VM/CV vs Fender MiM argument is that which is better is fairly subjective and you need to try out both and decide not only which is better, but which is better value, for yourself.

You're saying that Fender is legitimately going to show you the worst parts of the factory, and how it runs on a day to day basis? Think about it, obviously they're going to do it up if they're running a tour.

If you can find a better video, then please post it, cuz I looked and that's the only one I could find.

Quote by chatterbox272

cool it man, he shouldn't call you a filthy liar but you shouldn't react. I can only pick a slight difference, outside the strings. Also, the only fair test is a blind test and some of those were MiJ not MiM so it's not really a valid video to argue over.

Reading back over my previous post I did sound pissy, but I wasn't. I was more or less pointing out the flaws in the logic.

Quote by chatterbox272

TS, I think what can be gathered from the Squier VM/CV vs Fender MiM argument is that which is better is fairly subjective....

I agree to an extent. Quality is objectively measurable.

Quote by chatterbox272

....and you need to try out both and decide not only which is better, but which is better value, for yourself.

^This 1 trillion percent.

We might debate a lot on here, but what it really boils down to is what Chatterbox said. Which is best for YOU.

In the last 4/5 years the QC of the MIM's has taken a step backwards due to Fender stopping the final QC checks at the Corona plant. So they'll let through basses with sharp fret ends, dud pots, improperly seated frets, broken nuts, and other small issues. MIM instruments also sometimes use MIA woods though it's a once every blue moon type deal nowadays.

Damn it! Disable can't use disable to disable Disable's disable because disable's disable has already been disabled by Disable's disable!

It's not just the type of wood, it's also the quality of the wood. One reason the VM/CV's are so inexpensive is because they use a lower grade of wood.There is a reason Fender doesn't use basswood or agathis. Basswood tends to be soft, even the higher grade cuts, and agathis is very cheap cuz even the higher grade stuff is really not all that great. This is why it's considered a poor mans mahogany.

There is no stigma about agathis whastoever, most Ibanez basses up to (and maybe including) the SR500 are made of agathis (and they're ****ing awesome). Mahogany weighs a shitload and IMO doesn't sound a huge amount better. My Hagstrom (Mahogany), my Peavey (Basswood) and previously owned Ibanezeseseseses (Agathis) all sounded surprisingly similar (All had/have active pickups), the cheaper cuts didn't seem to have an adverse effect.

There is no stigma about agathis whastoever, most Ibanez basses up to (and maybe including) the SR500 are made of agathis (and they're ****ing awesome). Mahogany weighs a shitload and IMO doesn't sound a huge amount better. My Hagstrom (Mahogany), my Peavey (Basswood) and previously owned Ibanezeseseseses (Agathis) all sounded surprisingly similar (All had/have active pickups), the cheaper cuts didn't seem to have an adverse effect.

Agathis is used primarily in inexpensive guitars because it's an inexpensive wood. Only basses/guitars I see made of agathis are sub 500 dollar.SR500 is mahogany. Looking at the SR models on the Ibanez website only the 300 series is made of agathis the rest are maple, ash or mahogany. Read into that what you will.

Quote by Spaz91

Ever wondered why they don't offer a clear coat on the MIM Standards? Its because they're using the lowest quality alder they can find. The extra cost is for the headstock decal.

So using your logic I guess that's the same reason Squier doesn't offer a transparent finish on any of there alder basses/guitars huh?Actually the only Squiers I've seen with transparent finishes are the ones made of maple.

Quote by Spaz91

"Its subjective" followed by objective statement. ok.Yes, I have compared the wiring in Squiers and Fenders, same crap.

The Squiers have brighter strings and the Fender Jazz has hotter pickups. I'm willing to bet that all those commenters are trying to defend their purchases too.Maybe not filthy liars but they're certainly kidding themselves.

yeah, cuz they can't possibly hear any discernible difference between Fender and Squiers

EDIT:Just because you're not able to hear a difference doesn't mean others can't.

Agathis is used primarily in inexpensive guitars because it's an inexpensive wood. Only basses/guitars I see made of agathis are sub 500 dollar.SR500 is mahogany. Looking at the SR models on the Ibanez website only the 300 series is made of agathis the rest are maple, ash or mahogany. Read into that what you will.

I read that people will pay more for a tonewood with no tone. Ash is usually more attractive than maple but is only very slightly brighter than alder. Alder is very, very subtly bright than bass wood and has the same grain as agathis (assuming you get a choice cut, not featured in Mexican Fenders), basswood is neutral which is to its credit in my mind, agathis is pretty much identical but is a little denser, it also has an almost identical grain to alder even though it is much cheaper.

I should point out that you'd have to put all the frequencies of these tonewoods on a chart to know the differences as they are out of the spectrum of human hearing.

Now, bubinga, wenge, maple, rosewood; they all have a real character that you can hear.

So using your logic I guess that's the same reason Squier doesn't offer a transparent finish on any of there alder basses/guitars huh?Actually the only Squiers I've seen with transparent finishes are the ones made of maple.

All the passiveMexican Fenders I've owned and played have had very low output, even for passive single coil standards. This is an objective flaw in my eyes, Fender could easily fix this by putting their Duncan Designed pickups into standard Fenders.

yeah, cuz they can't possibly hear any discernible difference between Fender and Squiers EDIT:Just because you're not able to hear a difference doesn't mean others can't.

I can hear a difference. High-end Squiers have higher outputs, better bridges and the advantages of all the upgrades you can do for the £200 price difference.

I read that people will pay more for a tonewood with no tone. Ash is usually more attractive than maple but is only very slightly brighter than alder. Alder is very, very subtly bright than bass wood and has the same grain as agathis (assuming you get a choice cut, not featured in Mexican Fenders), basswood is neutral which is to its credit in my mind, agathis is pretty much identical but is a little denser, it also has an almost identical grain to alder even though it is much cheaper.

I should point out that you'd have to put all the frequencies of these tonewoods on a chart to know the differences as they are out of the spectrum of human hearing.

Now, bubinga, wenge, maple, rosewood; they all have a real character that you can hear.The VM Jazz, VM Precision and Matt Freeman Sig are all agathis.

Basswood, as with all woods comes in varying degrees of quality... the Japanese basswood, as I understand, is particularly good. As to whether body wood makes much difference anyway... well, whole new can of worms.

I read that people will pay more for a tonewood with no tone. Ash is usually more attractive than maple but is only very slightly brighter than alder. Alder is very, very subtly bright than bass wood and has the same grain as agathis (assuming you get a choice cut, not featured in Mexican Fenders), basswood is neutral which is to its credit in my mind, agathis is pretty much identical but is a little denser, it also has an almost identical grain to alder even though it is much cheaper.

...and what does this have to do with my comment about agathis being used in inexpensive guitars?

Quote by Spaz91

I should point out that you'd have to put all the frequencies of these tonewoods on a chart to know the differences as they are out of the spectrum of human hearing.

Also point out that each cut has it's own characteristics. Again, just because you can't hear a difference between tonewoods doesn't mean no one else can.

Nice way to side step my comment about alder here. Only two of the jazzes, and only one P bass model are made of agathis. the rest of the VM/CV models are basswood, and the transparent finishes are maple. The Freeman sig is also basswood.Squier does use alder in quite a few of their builds, namely the Affinities, and there CV 60's strat to name just two. So my point about your flawed logic about transparent finishes on alder still stands since neither Fender nor Squier offers it.

Quote by Spaz91

All the passiveMexican Fenders I've owned and played have had very low output, even for passive single coil standards. This is an objective flaw in my eyes, Fender could easily fix this by putting their Duncan Designed pickups into standard Fenders.

Maybe learn to do better set ups? My Fender P bass has damn good output on it's pups and I bought blind. Actually it's output is comparable to my VM Mustang bass output. Actually I have to set my VM Mustangs pups really low, or it gets muddy as hell.

Quote by Spaz91

I can hear a difference. High-end Squiers have higher outputs, better bridges and the advantages of all the upgrades you can do for the £200 price difference.

Um...no...just...no. As I stated above my Fender's output is just as powerful as my VM Squier.Actually Fender hardware is made in the Corona plant. No one knows where Squier hardware is produced, which gives me pause about it.

Quote by Spaz91

I know my shit when it comes to Fenders and Squiers

So much misinformation in your posts leads me to disagree.As for your link. I am not signing up to some website just so I can waste my time watching the peak of your fanboyism.

Quote by Spaz91

I think this is a pretty important debate that could deviate from this thead's original point. A dedicated thread might be in order.

Not allowed since it would essentially be a Vs. thread.

EDIT:

Quote by Spanner93

You will not be able to tell the difference between agathis, basswood etc. For the record, basswood basses are some of the best IMO.

Only difference I can see between them are weight and tone. Agathis seems a little lighter in weight and maybe a little brighter to me, but I don't haven't owned enough agathis basses to really compare it against basswood.

...and what does this have to do with my comment about agathis being used in inexpensive guitars?

My point was that people will pay more for alder because it's alder, not because there's a difference.

Also point out that each cut has it's own characteristics. Again, just because you can't hear a difference between tonewoods doesn't mean no one else can.

If you can play a piece of music twice and make it sound the same both time then you'd be some kind of wizard.

Nice way to side step my comment about alder here.

I sidestepped nothing. Squier offer clear finishes because they actually are cheap so there's nothing to hide, Mexican Fenders pretend to cost more money hence no clear coats as they'd expose the cheap cuts they use.

Maybe learn to do better set ups? My Fender P bass has damn good output on it's pups and I bought blind. Actually it's output is comparable to my VM Mustang bass output. Actually I have to set my VM Mustangs pups really low, or it gets muddy as hell.

My setups are excellent. Nearly all my other basses have sounded excellent (Aside from the Spector) but there was nothing I could do to the MIM Fenders to stop them sounding flat as a fart. Of course all brands have the occasional ****up but I look at the maths; I've owned two Mexican Fenders, both were ****ups, I've owned 5 Squiers, no ****ups.

Actually Fender hardware is made in the Corona plant. No one knows where Squier hardware is produced, which gives me pause about it.

Mexican Fenders have bent tin with holes in for a bridge, I doubt it makes a difference where its made.

As for your link. I am not signing up to some website just so I can waste my time watching the peak of your fanboyism.

Its just a Skydrive Powerpoint of the 13 Squiers, MIM Fenders, MIJ Fenders, MIA Fenders and Deluxe Fenders I've owned over the years, lest ye think my accusations unfounded. I've no idea how to make it a public link.

Not allowed since it would essentially be a Vs. thread.

This thread is (was) a versus thread. It's not what that rule applies to.

My point was that people will pay more for alder because it's alder, not because there's a difference.

Yeah, cuz no one can hear a difference between tonewoods.Simple fact of the matter is this. People choose what they do because of their preferences. As far as tone is concerned, There is a very distinct tonal difference between basswood, agathis and alder.

Quote by Spaz91

If you can play a piece of music twice and make it sound the same both time then you'd be some kind of wizard.

I guess I'm a wizard then. Off to Hogwarts I go!Odd how every note I play on my basses/guitars the tonal characteristics of the wood never change, and that's what I am referring to in that video. The instruments natural resonance, the nuances in the tone caused by the wood. If you play an A# it's going to sound like an A# every time.

Quote by Spaz91

I sidestepped nothing. Squier offer clear finishes because they actually are cheap so there's nothing to hide, Mexican Fenders pretend to cost more money hence no clear coats as they'd expose the cheap cuts they use.

Actually I researched this, and I found NO guitar manufacturer offers transparent finishes on alder basses. Not just Fender. I guess everyone uses cheap alder then huh

Quote by Spaz91

My setups are excellent. Nearly all my other basses have sounded excellent (Aside from the Spector) but there was nothing I could do to the MIM Fenders to stop them sounding flat as a fart. Of course all brands have the occasional ****up but I look at the maths; I've owned two Mexican Fenders, both were ****ups, I've owned 5 Squiers, no ****ups.

Wow so you base all your MIM Fender bashing on only the TWO MIM Fenders you've owned? Wow. Just. Wow.So tell me. How many **** up Squiers have you played? So far I am leaning towards one at the moment. My VM Mustang, although it sounds decent (too bright and who ever had the idea to put a maple fretboard on a Mustang should be FIRED!) has screws that were improperly done and a PG that scratches and dings if I look at it wrong.

Quote by Spaz91

Mexican Fenders have bent tin with holes in for a bridge, I doubt it makes a difference where its made.

Actually it does make a very valid point. The point is QUALITY CONTROL. See Fenders hardware is made in the US, following strict guidelines for the materials used. No one knows where Squiers hardware is made so NO ONE KNOWS WHAT STANDARDS ARE FOLLOWED.

Quote by Spaz91

Its just a Skydrive Powerpoint of the 13 Squiers, MIM Fenders, MIJ Fenders, MIA Fenders and Deluxe Fenders I've owned over the years, lest ye think my accusations unfounded. I've no idea how to make it a public link.

Okay now were getting somewhere. 13 Squiers, 2 MIM Fenders and how ever many other Fenders you've owned.

I have noticed every chance you get you trash MIM Fenders, or Fender in general. All you have to back up these claims is dodgey logic and subjective reasoning. Nothing quantifiable. Nope. You're not biased at all

Quote by Spaz91

This thread is (was) a versus thread. It's not what that rule applies to.

Again you're wrong. TS asked for a non-biased run down of the pros and cons of each instrument, meaning they wanted both the good and bad of each. Feel free to make one if you like. If you do try to make it in a section where more people frequent though. Bass section is nearly a ****ing ghost town.

steer clear of the epiphone. My last bass as the epishone thunderbird pro-V (red) and man that thing, uh, really grinds my gears. the neck and headstock weighs a ton, so it always dropped to the ground. the strap lock closer to the neck is in a STUPID place and will slide out after time. the finish is weak as hell, I once dropped my guitar-ellele on it and some of the finish came right off!also the bass weighs a ton.

On the other hand, the 35 inch scale length gave it a great B string. And it has a good range of tones on the active pickups, but this is not excuse for how annoying this bass is. avoid!

I can't speak for the other bass though because I don't know it.

LeakyFlask

You know what would be really sweet? Having a beautiful bird inlaid around the first fret, taking a majestic dump with airborne droppings around the 5th, 7th, 9th frets and so on, with a graceful impact around the 22nd-24th.