Community Lounge, Introductions and General Discussion Discussion, Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD! in General Discussion; Originally Posted by orconn
...I remember back in the mid nineties Cadillac used to sponsor, or at least display the ...

...I remember back in the mid nineties Cadillac used to sponsor, or at least display the Seville, at polo matches and "A" level horse shows in Southern California. The parking lots and stabling areas were full of Mercedes, BMW's, Lexus sedans and coupes and numerous Rolls/Bentleys (always a few Azure's). The Seville on display always seem to draw admiring lookers and generated a lot of positive conversation ...

Cadillac also always had a Seville at polo matches in the La Jolla area in the early/mid 80's when I visited my aunt and uncle there. Rolls-Royce was the official sponsor at the events we attended as I recall and their cars were what I was captivated by. At that time Cadillac was just starting thier decline and losing my interest fast.

I am still amazed at the pass so many on here keep giving Cadillac. How many more decades will it take for them to create the standard instead of doing what the defenders on here claim to be progress or good enough?

Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

Originally Posted by thebigjimsho

You're such a sellout, Sal...

I just buy what I like. I don't buy products from a brand because I like the brand - I need to like the product. I don't care who makes my next television. I'm just going to buy the one that I like best. I "like" the new CTS but I don't like it best - which is why I didn't buy it.

Originally Posted by orconn

I can't see how you can call the Sixteen dated and not see that the Ciel and the Elmiraj are merely variations on the same design theme, no great design breakthroughs to be seen on later two.

The third generation CTS is a variation of the same Art & Science design theme as the first generation - which is now dated. I wouldn't buy a first generation CTS if it were introduced today either.

The Sixteen was massively beautiful but it's time has passed - as have all designs themes from 2003.

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Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

Originally Posted by Lord Cadillac

I think Cadillac could use a full-size premium luxury sedan for those looking for something bigger than a CTS and with more panache than an XTS. The XTS is "nice" but really doesn't compare to leaders in the segment. I think this would/could be an aspirational vehicle for Cadillac owners and enthusiasts - and would bring more people into Cadillac showrooms and probably put more customers into cars like the ATS, CTS and others.

This car should have an adjustable suspension so that people wanting a floaty ride can have it - and those who want a stiffer ride can have that as well...

I totally agree. A car like Elmiraj could bring back the prestige and glory to the brand. Because of its price tag, I don't think that many would and could buy it, however, just the presence of a car like that in the showroom, can help to improve the image of Cadillac.

Furthermore, it can help boosting sales of other Cadillac models such as ATS and CTS. I can see design elements of Sixteen/Elmiraj/Ciel in the new CTS, ATS and even XTS. By introduction of Elmiraj, the new CTS/ATS can be considered as a mini-Elmiraj, which can improve the image of these cars. I personally think the new CTS, ATS, and even XTS have very distinct designs and if someone mistakes them for a Hyundai, he needs to see an eye doctor!

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Originally Posted by orconn

Perhaps it would be better for Cadillac to develop and produce a personal luxury car like the last series Sevilles. Despite some quality issues , especially for second and third hand buyers, the last two series Sevilles were a bright spot in an otherwise downward trending Cadillac market.

I cannot agree more. But two things:

1- If you convert the original MSRP of your '95 STS, or my '99 Seville STS, or Sub's '03 STS into today's dollar, the result would be around $70k! Do you think today people will be willing to pay that for a Cadillac? These days some (many?) are considering Cadillac as a discount luxury brand. Some others see it as a second hand bargain. One of our very good friends, who is a very knowledgeable car guy, considers ATS, which has an starting MSRP of $33k, an overpriced car that its price tag needs to be $10k reduced. The new Seville that you are mentioning is not going to be very different from these ATS/CTS. Do you think Cadillac will be able to market and sell it for a good price?

2- Do you have considered CTS V-sport as Cadillac's new personal luxury car? I see many similarities between the V-sport and Seville. Some consider it the modern Deville, but I think it is actually a modern Seville because of its superb handles and performance.
I really like to see one of our Seville STS owners test drive a CTS Vsport and reports back how it rides, performs, and feels compared to our beloved Seville. Hosseir Daddy drove one, but he is mostly into the sports car and didn't like the size and feel of the car. I like to know how someone who appreciates comfort and handling equally, thinks about this car. Submariner, Orconn yourself, Ryan, any STS owner? Is there any who can go and test drive a V-sport and reports back?

And by the way, this wonderful machine that blows the doors off the BMW 550 and the MB E550, has a starting price tag of $60k, and I have heard that there is a $5-10k incentive on the purchase of this car, and still Cadillac has problem in selling these brilliant cars!

So many here want to love Cadillacs again. But it seems the continuing controversial design theme cancels enthusiasm for the brand. The 'just drive it and shut up' argument from the believers seems more an acknowledgment of the failure of the styling than an endorsement of how well the car drives. What is the point of test driving a luxury car which an apparently increasing number of potential buyers have figured out is questionable as a symbol of prestige and therefore a dubious introduction of oneself?

Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

Originally Posted by ben.gators

this wonderful machine that blows the doors off the BMW 550

Just as (or maybe directly after - I wasn't paying very close attention) the V-Sport launched, BMW boosted the 550i's power substantially. The tests where the V-Sport was faster than the 550i was against the previous year AND (correct me if I'm wrong) a non-sport 550i - which doesn't handle very well...

Originally Posted by Bro-Ham

So many here want to love Cadillacs again. But it seems the continuing controversial design theme cancels enthusiasm for the brand. The 'just drive it and shut up' argument from the believers seems more an acknowledgment of the failure of the styling than an endorsement of how well the car drives. What is the point of test driving a luxury car which an apparently increasing number of potential buyers have figured out is questionable as a symbol of prestige and therefore a dubious introduction of oneself?

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Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

I don't know if you all have been keeping track of salaries and income of the top 2% of U.S. families lately. With incomes well in excess of $250,000 a year they could easily afford a $70,000 dollar car, and in fact do when they purchase a senior Mercedes or BMW ..... or even a Cadillac truck or V model. I do think a really beautiful top of the line Cadillac would find buyers in this income bracket, even a more expensive Cadillac would be attractive if it was a departure in styling from that offered by other "luxury" car makers. And of course there is the Chinese and overseas market as a potential market for a car of this type.

FINE! You're the boss so I will do it. When I go on vacation in a couple weeks the car rental places always seem to have all the Cadillac sedan models. I will try the new Seville or Sedan deVille, oops I mean CTS or XTS.

Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

Originally Posted by orconn

I don't know if you all have been keeping track of salaries and income of the top 2% of U.S. families lately. With incomes well in excess of $250,000 a year they could easily afford a $70,000 dollar car, and in fact do when they purchase a senior Mercedes or BMW ..... or even a Cadillac truck or V model. I do think a really beautiful top of the line Cadillac would find buyers in this income bracket, even a more expensive Cadillac would be attractive if it was a departure in styling from that offered by other "luxury" car makers. And of course there is the Chinese and overseas market as a potential market for a car of this type.

I agree - there's a market for it. Just don't price it too high. At first, price is low. Cadillac doesn't do very well when it tries to charge high prices. On one hand it makes sense to ask a high price because Cadillac wants exclusivity - but enough people aren't biting. So do what Lexus did with the LS in 1989 and start low...

Originally Posted by Bro-Ham

FINE! You're the boss so I will do it. When I go on vacation in a couple weeks the car rental places always seem to have all the Cadillac sedan models. I will try the new Seville or Sedan deVille, oops I mean CTS or XTS.

They're both very nice cars... I'd like to drive the XTS. I bet it's the ultimate DeVille...

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So many here want to love Cadillacs again. But it seems the continuing controversial design theme cancels enthusiasm for the brand. The 'just drive it and shut up' argument from the believers seems more an acknowledgment of the failure of the styling than an endorsement of how well the car drives. What is the point of test driving a luxury car which an apparently increasing number of potential buyers have figured out is questionable as a symbol of prestige and therefore a dubious introduction of oneself?

I have been a big fan, in general, of Cadillac's styling over the past decade. And even though the back end of the new CTS didn't wow me upon introduction, it has grown on me a lot.

I think Cadillacs today look great and drive even better. Certainly they drive better than any Cadillac before it...

Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

I actually like the design features of the new Cadillacs.

The complaints I have with the design of the XTS are the slope back roof, which make entry/egress more difficult, and the fact that the four corners are recessed in from the actual width and length of the vehicle, decreasing trunk size and making it look like a much smaller car than it is.

I also have a problem with such a large car, in a luxury line, that has a rear seat where when you sit in it you have little or no room to move your legs around or change seating position to avoid fatigue.

I wish they (All manufacturers for that matter.) would give more importance to the interior design and comfort of passengers than they do to the aerodynamics. I would much rather have comfort and room, than another couple MPG.

I saw an XTS up close yesterday, in red, simply awful proportions and lines. Also saw a white CTS coupe with a hind end that was so enormous I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. The Lincoln MKZ is appearing everywhere and its attractive flowing shape is quite a contrast.

Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

Originally Posted by talismandave

I also have a problem with such a large car, in a luxury line, that has a rear seat where when you sit in it you have little or no room to move your legs around or change seating position to avoid fatigue. I wish they (All manufacturers for that matter.) would give more importance to the interior design and comfort of passengers than they do to the aerodynamics. I would much rather have comfort and room, than another couple MPG.

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Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

Having spent some time this morning looking at Cadillac, MB, Audi and BMW websites, it's clear the ATS is priced right on top of the C-Class, A4 and 3-series. This tells me a couple things: That Cadillac believes itself to be of the same caliber. In some aspects like handling, it likely is. In other aspects like overall execution and cachet...the other marques have worked longer at making the best cars and it shows: Price it accordingly for now. And don't go crazy with the coupe pricing.

The XTS, like the last STS, I think gets lost in the shuffle. Even on Cadillac's website, there's a picture showing how legroom is superior to an E350 and A6. Isn't the CTS supposed to be the answer to those cars? The fact that the XTS is priced right on top of the CTS only adds to the confusion. And holy cow, what a mess of models and option packages. I think it's trying to be too many things to too many people. But I think the XTS is there for DTS-STS buyers still wanting to stay in a Cadillac. It's the token Brougham of the late 80s and 90s...where people like my grandparents, god rest their souls, were the ones still buying Broughams, I think the XTS is there for younger Boomers. And realtors.

I guess we'll see how the upcoming RWD large sedan goes. While Cadillac has had a good showing with the 2nd and 3rd gen CTS and ATS, their past trouble with the higher end of the market makes me pause. Allante? It wasn't good until the final year of production and it was still let down by a cheap looking dash/door panels with no wood. XLR? Slower than a Vette but priced far more dearly. And not exactly a beautiful car. Fleetwoods and Broughams? Not gonna fly now. DTS/STS/XTS Platinum editions? I think it shows they can do an alcantara headliner and wrap trim in leather but so can everyone else. A car like an Audi A8 has a real presence on the road...it looks expensive. It kinda puts me in awe a bit. That's what Cadillac's big RWD car needs to do to people. And they need to be realistic with the pricing. They're still the equivalent of an American tourist in Europe. They may have ditched the fanny pack and black socks with shorts but you can still spot them...they're not quite the seasoned business traveler that knows how to blend in.

I admire the direction they've gone. They could have aimed at "better than Lincoln" but they chose the more difficult route and went international. Cadillacs like my '92 Fleetwood (an anachronism even when new) are part of their heritage and while no one has a spotless past, I can look past its faults and enjoy it for what it is; ditto my STS.

Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

Cadillac's first mistake was naming their small, entry level car "ATS" instead of CTS. The current CTS should have been named STS and the XTS should have been DTS.

The ATS should not be priced above the C-Class or 3-Series. I haven't done any price checking but if that's really the case - that's a mistake. The ATS is not an all around "better" car. It's great - but not the best - and should be priced accordingly.

The XTS is a nice car but as you mentioned, it's compared too often to the A6, 5-Series and E-Class. Why? That's what the CTS is there for. Correct... So that's a little odd. Perhaps the XTS and CTS are to Cadillac was the GS and ES are to Lexus.

The new full size rear wheel drive sedan needs to be as perfect as possible and it cannot be priced over the Lexus LS initially. It needs to slow in between the Hyundai Equus and Lexus LS.

And if Cadillac wants to get into the global game - they're going to need a diesel engine. Personally I think they'd be better of staying out of Europe until they can get a lot of sales from the Chinese - which is the fastest growing market for automobiles at the moment...

Originally Posted by delerium75

Having spent some time this morning looking at Cadillac, MB, Audi and BMW websites, it's clear the ATS is priced right on top of the C-Class, A4 and 3-series. This tells me a couple things: That Cadillac believes itself to be of the same caliber. In some aspects like handling, it likely is. In other aspects like overall execution and cachet...the other marques have worked longer at making the best cars and it shows: Price it accordingly for now. And don't go crazy with the coupe pricing.

The XTS, like the last STS, I think gets lost in the shuffle. Even on Cadillac's website, there's a picture showing how legroom is superior to an E350 and A6. Isn't the CTS supposed to be the answer to those cars? The fact that the XTS is priced right on top of the CTS only adds to the confusion. And holy cow, what a mess of models and option packages. I think it's trying to be too many things to too many people. But I think the XTS is there for DTS-STS buyers still wanting to stay in a Cadillac. It's the token Brougham of the late 80s and 90s...where people like my grandparents, god rest their souls, were the ones still buying Broughams, I think the XTS is there for younger Boomers. And realtors.

I guess we'll see how the upcoming RWD large sedan goes. While Cadillac has had a good showing with the 2nd and 3rd gen CTS and ATS, their past trouble with the higher end of the market makes me pause. Allante? It wasn't good until the final year of production and it was still let down by a cheap looking dash/door panels with no wood. XLR? Slower than a Vette but priced far more dearly. And not exactly a beautiful car. Fleetwoods and Broughams? Not gonna fly now. DTS/STS/XTS Platinum editions? I think it shows they can do an alcantara headliner and wrap trim in leather but so can everyone else. A car like an Audi A8 has a real presence on the road...it looks expensive. It kinda puts me in awe a bit. That's what Cadillac's big RWD car needs to do to people. And they need to be realistic with the pricing. They're still the equivalent of an American tourist in Europe. They may have ditched the fanny pack and black socks with shorts but you can still spot them...they're not quite the seasoned business traveler that knows how to blend in.

I admire the direction they've gone. They could have aimed at "better than Lincoln" but they chose the more difficult route and went international. Cadillacs like my '92 Fleetwood (an anachronism even when new) are part of their heritage and while no one has a spotless past, I can look past its faults and enjoy it for what it is; ditto my STS.

Have an iPhone or Android? Then you can be connected with everything automotive in your area. Download the Cars Connected app for your iPhone or Androiddevice today! Or you can check out Cadillac Magazine...