MKern wrote:I use the new Dai Riki with the open ring. However I find the knots slip out more in the heat of summer,... Also, the dai riki 6x and 7x break extremely easy, even though teh lb. test is rated high?????

I've had the same experience with Dai Riki. I'm told there is a new version with improved knot strength. I don't know when I will have the chance to check it out. So until then, I'll have to jump on the Orvis Superstrong band wagon.

Orvis SS has good strength and knot strength. It also has a nice "consistancy" for casting. That's to say, it turns over nicely and doesn't puddle. It doesn't turn over in a straight line either like a really stiff mono (Maxima chameleon) would.

I tie my own leaders and use Maxima Chameleon for the butt down to about the 60% of the length. The final 40% and tippet is Orvis.

I have little faith in flourocarbon for dry fly fishing, since it is the displacement of the water that the trout sees. If you do a lot of nymphing, you should give it a shot though. Like others, I would warn you away from mixing flouro and mono. Not only that, but try to avoid mixing brands of tippet. Or if you do, recheck the knots from time to time until you gain confidence with the match.

Seaguar flourocarbon. Sometimes it makes the difference between steelhead and no steelhead. Occasionally I've gotten a bad spool and had to throw it away. And it is expensive. When I'm not using flourocarbon I like the maxima.

I'll let Padraic field the rest of your questions, but here is a link to a program that runs as a macro in Microsoft Excel that I find useful for tying leaders. If you don't have Excel or even if you do, there is a PDF file here also with numerous formulas:

I am a frog hair fan. 2 reasons. It works for me very well and it is a product of a pittsburgh, pa company. I like the fact that I can support a local company just as much as I like how it turns over for me.

I also tie my own leaders. I do this for several reasons.

1. I always have leaders- one less reason to stop at a store 2. I like having the ability to tie leaders for various situations like dry fly fishing, nymphing and rod length. I also find that they turn over better for me than the extruded leaders.

I used the Orvis super strong for years, last year I switch to the new Dai riki tippet. I went into the feathered hook one day and two of the dai riki salesmen happened to be there and they gave me a couple of spools to try. They hooked me on it, been using it ever since.

A couple of ones I don't like are Umpqua, sci angler. If I have some I don't use I just give them to Maurice

1. I always have leaders- one less reason to stop at a store 2. I like having the ability to tie leaders for various situations like dry fly fishing, nymphing and rod length. I also find that they turn over better for me than the extruded leaders.

Yeah, that pretty much nails it for me.

I think the leaders turn over better because the Maxima Chameleon mono is so stiff, while the Orvis tippet is sort of medium. So you end up with the slack down by the fly where it can eliminate drag.

I know when I bass fish with the larger more air resistant flies, I will use the Maxima further down the leader and then they really turn over well.

JackM that was a great leader link! Assuming that you are building a leader where the formula requires the last section be a 5x....now when you are fishing does it matter if you add a 5x tippet the end of your leader or does the tippet you are adding have to be a different size(smaller) than the last section of the leader? Or does it matter?

PaulG wrote:I used the Orvis super strong for years, last year I switch to the new Dai riki tippet. I went into the feathered hook one day and two of the dai riki salesmen happened to be there and they gave me a couple of spools to try. They hooked me on it, been using it ever since.

A couple of ones I don't like are Umpqua, sci angler. If I have some I don't use I just give them to Maurice

I gotta get Jonas to have another salesman in the store pitching a new tippet...I'm running low!

Posted on: 2007/1/30 22:59

_________________Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?

Flydog wrote:JackM that was a great leader link! Assuming that you are building a leader where the formula requires the last section be a 5x....now when you are fishing does it matter if you add a 5x tippet the end of your leader or does the tippet you are adding have to be a different size(smaller) than the last section of the leader? Or does it matter?

Fly Dog:

I do not know if it is right, but what is..... Anyway I always tie my last section of leader material a little long. By long, I try and add 12in or so of extra material to attach the first couple of flies on for the day. I try not to up size the tippet but will add a smaller size if necessary. I mark where the end of the leader should me with a sharpie and work from there.

Attaching a 4x tippet to a 5x leader will result in break offs as the the breaking point is greater at the terminal piece.

Another hint for nymphing is to leave a tag hanging from your last knot. You can attach your split shot to the tag. The upside to this is that if your shot gets hung up a little tug will usually just pull the shot off the tag leaving your leader, tippet and fly intact. Just pinch some more lead on and fish.

If you are going to start tying the leaders build your self a leader vise. A dowl, wood block and two alligator clips will do the trick.

Flydog wrote:JackM that was a great leader link! Assuming that you are building a leader where the formula requires the last section be a 5x....now when you are fishing does it matter if you add a 5x tippet the end of your leader or does the tippet you are adding have to be a different size(smaller) than the last section of the leader? Or does it matter?

In the leader formulas, the terminal section is the suggested tippet; there is no need to add any more. When the terminal section gets too small, you can cut back all the way to the prior section and re-tie a new tippet section or, you can just tie in additional tippet of the same size. (Losing an inch or two from the second-to-last section, in order to tie a new knot, will probably not effect the leader all that much.)

If you want to take a 5X leader down to 6X, for instance and don't want to tie a new leader on, usually it will work out if you cut the 5X back to the same length as the prior section or a liitle smaller and then add the 6X in a typical tippet length of 18-36 inches, depending on your preferences.

In other words, if the leader is 36"x1X, 24"x2X, 18"x3X, 9"x4X, 24"x5X (as a bad example) and you want to go to 6X, you can cut the 5X down to 9" or better, 6", then attach about 24" of 6X.

Also, I am not sure if I understood part of your comments, but if you use the LeaderCalc macro in Excel, you can specify the terminal tippet and total leader size and the program recalculates the formula for you.

Posted on: 2007/1/31 6:16

_________________ "Only nature is good, only the natural is human,..."

Here, however, we are experiencing the consequences of the doctrine, lately preached from all the rooftops, that the state is the highest goal of mankind....

Flydog wrote:JackM that was a great leader link! Assuming that you are building a leader where the formula requires the last section be a 5x....now when you are fishing does it matter if you add a 5x tippet the end of your leader or does the tippet you are adding have to be a different size(smaller) than the last section of the leader? Or does it matter?

I meant to say earlier that I use those same leader formulae. They work well. You may also want to check out the George Harvey leader formulae, I think they appear in several books but I found them in On the Trout Stream by Humphreys. If you get the leader building kit from Fly Fishers Paradise, they include them (and the mono is Maxima Chameleon and Orvis SS).

To answer the question above... Yes, you can attach 5x to 5x. Essentially what you are doing is making the leader longer than the formula calls for. The effect is that it will not turn over as well. This can be a problem or an advantage depending on whether you are doing it intentionally.

I frequently add more 5x to a leader, rather than going down to 6x. Why? I have a firm conviction that trout can see any tippet modern science can extrude. You could have 10x on and they'd see it. The point to going to a lighter tippet is that it is more limp. The more limp a tippet is, the more poorly it turns over. This puts slack down by the fly, and this eliminates drag. So it's the drag you need to eliminate. The lighter tippet just makes the fisherman feel better. Meanwhile, you lose more flies to trout and trees.

You can eliminate the drag by adding a couple feet of a heavier tippet. The greater length will be harder to turn over and you'll get that slack down by the fly. The advantage of the heavier tippet is that you'll have fewer break offs (trout and trees).

In situations where you want to turnover the fly (nymph and streamer fishing, terrestrials, etc) the slack will be an issue not an advantage. So you may want to carry a couple sizes of leaders. In fact, you may want to carry leaders that are specific to dry fly or nymph fishing.

Oh, one big problem with knotted leaders. If you get windknots in your leaders, you'll hate 'em. When a knotted leader gets snarled, there is almost no way to untangle it. Another reason to carry spares.

This is good stuff! Couple of questions. So if I am using a leader formula from the LeaderCalc or any other reference, once I have built the leader there is no need to add tippet to the end of the leader?? I have always purchased my leaders from Orivs, then when I start fishing I add a tippet section to the end of a new leader. I assumed that you always tried to keep the original leader length and added the tippet so as you changed flies the leader was never shortened. In the end I would have a 9ft leader then I would add another foot or so of tippet.So, I think what I am hearing is that if you choose to fish a 9ft leader....and add tippet as you fish to keep it at 9ft.

Flydog, by gosh I think you've got it! Even with extruded leaders, they are meant to be fished out of the box, without addition of tippet. With extruded leaders, you only need to add tippet when the tippet section gets shortened from tying on several flies and breaking or cutting back.

My experience with building and rebuilding leaders is that tippet length is not an exact science. The leader taper transfers energy to the butt end of the tippet section and then that energy, while being transferred still further, tends to begin to dissipate. The pre-defined formulas provide the "ideal" (in the opinion of the maker) length of tippet for an appropriate "unfolding," but 6 inches (or more) either way isn't going to be particularly noticeable, in my opinion. If the tippet is on the long side, as Padraic suggested, you are likely to get an incomplete turn over on the final part of the leader. If the section is on the short side, the leader will straighten all the way to the end and may even "spring back" slightly, leaving the fly behind the last section of tippet.

I like tied leaders because you know exactly when you have too little tippet left, not always easy to know with extruded leaders on the first use.

Posted on: 2007/1/31 10:16

_________________ "Only nature is good, only the natural is human,..."

Here, however, we are experiencing the consequences of the doctrine, lately preached from all the rooftops, that the state is the highest goal of mankind....

When you build a leader, you start to appreciate how they are designed to acheive a purpose. As Jack says, they are designed to transfer and dissipate energy. When you cast a bulky streamer, you need to have more energy tranferred. When you cast a #18 ant, you need more of it dissipated. With a hands on appreciation of building leaders, you should not only know that you need to add tippet, but whether to drop a size or simply extend the length (and have a rough idea of how much) of the tippet depending on what you have on. You would probably get this insight without building leaders, but I started building mine early in my flyfishing career and it really ramped up the learning curve.