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No one said designing games around grind is acceptable. However, you have to accept that there is grind in games. A game that has no grind would consist of the following:

1. No leveling system (gotta kill those monsters repeatedly or do those boring quests)
2. No quests (kill 10 zombies...then kill 10 zebras...then kill 10 zombie zebras...OK I GET IT)
3. No gear stats (lets see, my armor is +20, but there is +40 available, have to make sure I always have the best armor)

Spoiler

Shall I continue? If you can tell me one game that doesn't have grind, I'd love to hear it. Preferably of the MMO and/or RPG type...not sure if Tetris has anything resembling grind.

If you want to get into the real gist of grind, it's really determined by the player. If you were around for the beginning of GW, you should remember how in order to do PvP, you had to partake in the PvE portion of that game. There were a LOT of PvP people complaining about that. Basically, to them, the entirety of PvE was grind, since it was something they HAD to do to get to something they enjoyed. I wouldn't be surprised if on the other side of the coin, there were PvE people who HATED the required PvP that you had to do to go from pre-searing to post-searing. You HAD to do it (yes, I know if you log out and log back in, you start just after the PvP portion, but that's basically cheating the system).

Grind, while having a definition, is what you make of it. If you choose to farm the same group of monsters over and over and over for no real reason, that can hardly be considered grind. You obviously enjoy doing it, or else why are you doing it? However, if you choose to farm that same group of monsters over and over and over because you need to make some money because the in game economy is crap, that would be considered grind. You need that money to buy that max weapon mod you want, so you do the farm that is current craze, but you more than likely aren't enjoying it because you feel like you HAVE to do it.

YOU may not find the renown hearts grindy, but other people do. But, when you get right down to it, renown hearts are quests, albeit multiple quests smashed into one "quest". As stated before, in GW1, you could have 3 different, but separate, quests: Kill 10 spiders, gather 20 apples, and kneel at 5 monuments. Now, in GW2, one renown heart could have you doing all 3 of those different quests at one time to complete the heart. You can choose how many spiders you kill, how many apples you gather, and how many monuments you kneel at in order to finish the heart, but the fact is you still have to do those things. If you don't want to do them, then you won't complete the renown heart. And in that situation, the only thing you are missing out on is a bit of XP and the rewards for getting 100% completion in the area.

Proclaiming something isn't grindy doesn't make it not grindy. It just means you enjoy doing it.

Spoiled for length. Have to agree with all that, plus add in a few thoughts of my own.

4. No expensive items.
5. No titles or tasks (daily/monthly/otherwise).

If obsidian armor didn't exist, I know that a lot of people wouldn't have spent as much time farming. They just wouldn't have ended up playing as much. I am talking about optional grind here of course, many people will give it a pass because it doesn't give any benefit that you have that armor. It still causes people to grind though, and it gives players that don't have as much time to play as they want, an excuse to partake in cheating, scamming or even in rmt.

That's not to say that economies with expensive non-game changing items are flawed, just that there are people who have problems because they'll play a game that they do not enjoy, or even loath... if it has a task they feel they must do for whatever reason. There was this one person in my alliance once that cursed out anet every chance they got because of... I think it was one of the vanquishing titles? They'd tell everyone that they were going to get gwamm before they stopped playing "this horrible game", but that anet was evil because they designed the titles to be too grindy. It didn't matter to them that it was optional grind, don't ask me why. I mean, I think I know why, but I'd rather not talk more about that particular person. Like I said, some people have problems.

What it comes down to for me is this: Is it possible to complete hearts without doing one or more of the actions that is requested? Not because that would keep it from being grindy, but it would make at least one of the actions as an optional grind. I didn't play enough to feel comfortable answering this one way or the other myself.

At least pvp players don't have to worry about pve grind, and pvers don't have to worry about pvp grind. Though from my time in warhammer online, I'm aware that there will be issues, at least at first, with people who will grind pve when all they really want to do is go play some WvW. At minimum they'll grind their weapon skills so they aren't reduced to spamming "1" against players who have a full skill bar, but somethings telling me some will avoid WvW completely until they've hit level 30, because they'll want to be able to have an elite available when their opponent uses theirs. And well, max level armor will keep a few people out of WvW on anything but their best equipped characters.

IMO the hearts are not grindy, if you think it's grindy then you simply don't enjoy the task at hand.
the only single part where i say the game is grindy is because the weapon swap is to high in the levels, lower that to lvl 5 or even 3 and the grind is (for me at least) gone.

IMO the hearts are not grindy, if you think it's grindy then you simply don't enjoy the task at hand.
the only single part where i say the game is grindy is because the weapon swap is to high in the levels, lower that to lvl 5 or even 3 and the grind is (for me at least) gone.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't consider the hearts grindy either. At the very least, they are very slightly grindy. But, for me it's tolerable. I DO think leveling up enough to finally work on your traits is a grind, at least in it's current form. You have to get to what, level 10? And then, you have to have enough money to buy a book to enable you to allocate trait points (and then you have two more to get for higher levels of traits). That is probably the one unnecessary gold sink. Name another game that you have to pay to use stat points or the equivalent. It wasn't bad the first time around since we are all trying to learn the game, so we won't get overwhelmed, but I can see it starting to wear on you after the 4th or 5th time through.

Anyways, I'm happy I could comfortably level to 15 without feeling like ripping my face off. That gives me hope, unlike most other mmo games I played to 5 before logging out permanently.

I'm quite confident that I have played the beta and its heart quests at length, so far nothing in this thread has convinced me you did anything close to it. Even the majority of replies here suggest that these events are similar to quests and have a touch of grind to them, I'm still waiting for a proper explanation past wiki-quoting to warrant your claims in the OP.

I quoted the general definition of grind, which is repetitively doing the same required thing to get a result. Hearts are anything but by default, however some people have the option of grinding hearts. That doesn't make hearts into a grind but rather the player. When discussing things like this it is very important to look from everyone's perspective and not just your own.

Consider accepting that you simply don't have the time available to play a MMO.

I do not accept that I can't play a genre of game I like because the genre is plagued by bad design choices. Most mmo's give no options except grind to 60, 70, 80, 90, 200 or whatever the level cap is. In gw2 this is luckily very much different. Even if time spent is the same, at least the time spent is enjoyable thank you very much.

The reason why I love(d) GW1 immensely is because I could make the most out of the few hours (if at all) I had available to play each day, thanks to instances and heroes/henchmen. This is why I choose it over WoW or something like that, I could never free up the time to do endgame content there.

Indeed, I agree 100%.

I think it's quite unreasonable to ask for MMO's to fit any very casual gamer type who can squeeze in an hour or two a day at max. There is stuff like handy games for you.

On the contrary. I believe video games should center around people who have a job and an active social life. These people own 100% of the money in the world. That is no typo. If this segment of the market is alienated, videogames by default will disappear because you need to get the money where it is. Basing your game on students and jobless people doesn't pay the bills for a project as big as many mmo's. The different CoD and Fifa games are for the most part working people who play an hour after work. They and only they have the money to keep buying skins, map packs and other stuff.

Take any failed mmo in the last 10 years. They failed because the casual segment was alienated. Any reason usually boils down to the fact that working people can't justify 15 euros a month for a grinder. Props to a.net for realizing that it is exactly this market segment which can make any game succeed.

This goes pretty much for any kind of hobby. If you can't spare the time required for it, just don't bother. It's still a great hobby for people who can.

Time required for chess is 10 minutes including set up (especially while your bad) or about an hour a week if you're studying as a casual. Time required for running 10 miles is an hour after work, 3 days a week. Time required for an olympic distance triathlon is about 5 hours a week!!!! (which I did...). Time required for Aion is about 12 hours a day for a month straight... I played hard core during a holiday and didn't feel like making any progress at all... If a video game requires more time than it takes for me to train for an olympicdistance triathlon, there is something seriously wrong with the video game, it is not unreasonable to question that. On the contrary, it would be delusional to accept it.

I do not accept that I can't play a genre of game I like because the genre is plagued by bad design choices. Most mmo's give no options except grind to 60, 70, 80, 90, 200 or whatever the level cap is. In gw2 this is luckily very much different. Even if time spent is the same, at least the time spent is enjoyable thank you very much.

This is how I feel, as well. I may not ever get to experience 100% of the content in a game (though I think I did in GW 1) like high-end raids that require you sit at your computer for 4+ hours after having grinded to 65 + farmed gear, but I do like MMOs (making my character, leveling up, outfitting, playing how I want) and generally find ways to enjoy the time I spend in them.

On the contrary. I believe video games should center around people who have a job and an active social life. These people own 100% of the money in the world. That is no typo. If this segment of the market is alienated, videogames by default will disappear because you need to get the money where it is. Basing your game on students and jobless people doesn't pay the bills for a project as big as many mmo's. The different CoD and Fifa games are for the most part working people who play an hour after work. They and only they have the money to keep buying skins, map packs and other stuff.

I have to say, I agree with this. Maybe not EVERY game needs to be designed for us, but we are the ones buying them lol Though, I think since the PS2 era, games have been much, much shorter and much less enjoyable (for me), on average.

It's not that simple. Choosing between Grind A and Grind B does not make the grind go away. Don't get me wrong, I love choice in heart quests, but the reason I don't feel the grind isn't because the grind isn't there, it's because I can choose how to grind and because combat is actually a lot of fun.

Originally Posted by harniq

That doesn't make hearts into a grind but rather the player.

You can skip hearts, but then you'd need to do more dynamic events or WvW or something to compensate. The grind is still there, somewhere, the difference in GW2 is that you have a lot more ways to fill it.

Originally Posted by harniq

I do not accept that I can't play a genre of game I like because the genre is plagued by bad design choices.

Agreed, and you should not accept it either. You should ask (and pay for) games that do not carry on these bad design choices (like GW2).

Originally Posted by harniq

On the contrary. I believe video games should center around people who have a job and an active social life. These people own 100% of the money in the world.

Urk. Even if they have more money (not 100%) they are also less likely to spend a large portion of it (per capita) that those who have more time to play. A good game will try to cater to the different groups by, for example, offering replay and completionist value to those who play more hours, while giving a pretty good bare-bones game for the casuals.

Originally Posted by harniq

Take any failed mmo in the last 10 years. They failed because the casual segment was alienated.

Disagree. They failed because only one game can have a sub, and they offered too little to compete with WoW. If grind was the problem, WoW would have failed by now. But people stick to WoW in part because they invested too much in their character to leave it behind. Grind makes you spend time in a game, but also makes you more likely to stick with it past its prime.

Disagree. They failed because only one game can have a sub, and they offered too little to compete with WoW. If grind was the problem, WoW would have failed by now. But people stick to WoW in part because they invested too much in their character to leave it behind. Grind makes you spend time in a game, but also makes you more likely to stick with it past its prime.

i have to disagree here, i didn't play it (and still don't) because it doesn't offer a proper money =/= time worth.
if i can buy guild wars ones and never have to pay anymore while still having a better game experience then it's only logical to look the other way and kiss WoW goodbye, B2P still wins the field VS P2P.
also, i don't like grind at all and WoW is pretty much the mother of all grind, i don't pay to play grind, i pay to play a game.

Well, I agree with your choice and argument, but I am speaking consumer base here. If everyone understood why GW is awesome like we do, WoW would have died already, and yet it has not.

So clearly there are still people willing to dish out 15$ for a grindy game. Granted, a big proportion probably is due to social networking, another smaller proportion to endgame content...

I don't mind a game where I can invest time, in fact I looked to MMORPGs looking for one. And I would gladly pay 15$ a month for a game worth the cost. The reason I didn't was because GW offered better quality gaming at a lower cost. It had little to nothing to do with grind though.