Ok... Nothing says spider can't play. It just says you can't play with shadowlands personalities. Obviously, it's a WAY bigger challenge to put something together without shadowlands peeps in it, but the 'option' is still there.

I guess the biggest bummer I have about this is that this is a set that people are supposed to be excited to buy and play with their friends. It seems to alienate spider players from the fun for all packaging this is supposed to bring. I guess, the spider players can always play as Junzo with their playgroup, but that can only be fun for so long. And, of course, Spider players can play non shadowlands decks. :p

we have 7 untainted samurai, 10 untainted monks, and 8 courtiers. thats less than half our personality base. thats not taking into account the fact that our entire clan is supposedly based on fear, and our best fear personalities are shadowlands. theres no way of interpreting this as anything but lame (at the very best).

but this is besides the point. even if we managed to find a deck that worked under these preposterous conditions, we wouldn't want to. because it HURTS US TO DO SO. we want the challenge booths to fail miserably. because the more they fail the more good stuff for the spider.

thats just weak suace. we've been a very restive group for a long time, and things are slowly starting to look better but AEG just keeps smacking us around with this stuff. i want to be excited about gencon. i'm signed up to do one of these challenge things. but now i have zero reason to do it. i don't want to win, even if i were capable of it. and i'm a sufficiently terrible player that i also get to worry about the threat of being DQ'ed for sandbagging. way to foster an environment of fun.

You mistake me giving a way for spider to play as something I agree with. I don't like the fact that Spider doesn't get to participate in what is supposed to be something fun for everyone. I agree with what you said there.

Let's hope AEG lets spider players jump on the Junzo deck!

How? People pre registered for this booth, if Spiders were allowed to actually play in the challenger role that would be something they would have to advertise and sell tickets for. The best I see is that they might allow a competent player to win a single 2/3 to try to show that it is possible for the siege deck to win, give spider a scroll and then allow themselves to lose more over the course of the weekend to give everyone else a chance to have the scroll. I know that after 10 games with the Dark Naga deck that it is WAY more powerful then the siege event showed for it.

Remember, they are trying to [b]sell[/b] this thing. Letting non approved players play as challenger is risky as, depending on the nature of the set it can be easily broken and then stomp all comers, leading to the siege set appearing to difficult, something they want to avoid when selling product. Just from a marketing stand point its better to give a few wins to the siege deck but ensure that it loses more often, then you get to send off players happy and excited and watch them testify how good the game is.

This was normally not a problem last year. It was great as it was a way to excite the community and make the naga a thing again. This time however, its done by fucking the spider participants who signed up for the Booth, by making them play to HARM their faction, and by making it so winning a pod for spider gives a shitty, non spider, prize while other factions get to play to be able to say they brought a scroll to their clan should they win.

As for Spider, I would have felt like I wasted my money and would have asked for a refund today if I was signed up. There is NO positive for playing at the siege event if you want spider to get a black scroll absolutely none. I was terribly upset when I couldn't justify a trip to Gen Con this year. Now that I see that both the Booth and the main event were screwing spider players so hard... I would only be there for the drafts and spider dinner.

Fuck that shit.

Play Susumu, make it all thematic and then act surprised when the deck does nothing and you lose. That does more to help the spider then actually giving a fuck. It encourages spider players to actually under play in the booth and hope for a loss, because they profit then, but only enough to not be DQ'd.

If the other set is ANYTHING to go by then dueling will be mediocre at best as the Dark Naga deck was good at telling dueling players to shove it, so no kensai, and the monks have terrible chi which will make them most likely bad for this as well.

I'm disappointed in how this has played out because I'm playing in one of the Sieges (the same as Kakita Shiro), and have been excited for it since I bought the ticket two months ago. I had a deck ready and then the "no-Shadowlands" warning came out. I get the reasonings based on theme, but there couldn't be some kind of caveat based on Spider Shadowlands personalities? I'm not a vocal player, but this did irk me a bit.

i'd even have been happier (not exactly happy, but happier) if we'd been told about this more than 6 days before gencon starts. i can't buy a ticket for any other l5r events now. haven't for weeks. nor at this point can i probably find the cards i'd need to build out a nonshadowlands deck even if i wanted to.

I'm disappointed in how this has played out because I'm playing in one of the Sieges (the same as Kakita Shiro), and have been excited for it since I bought the ticket two months ago. I had a deck ready and then the "no-Shadowlands" warning came out. I get the reasonings based on theme, but there couldn't be some kind of caveat based on Spider Shadowlands personalities? I'm not a vocal player, but this did irk me a bit.

No Shadowlands is one thing, and makes sense. It is thematic that the Yogo Junzo's Army corrupts its opponent's cards and takes them over. I do not think anyone has a real beef with that.

Making the Spider Clan players who signed up for this event LITERALLY playing to deny their faction a Story Prize?

It is, sadly, just more of the same from the past few months. It is yet another action by AEG where we as a community are being effectively punished for faction loyalty.

If Sparks can work it out to let Spider Clan players play the Siege Deck? Even IF it's just a Marketing move to have the Challenge Booth (and honestly, aren't ALL Tournaments and special events just marketing to sell cards?), there are choices AEG can make to reward and empower its customers. Letting the Spider players play the Siege deck would be one of them.

Even if they play it poorly, at least they got to fight for their faction, rather than against it.

wait, you can play as junzo? i didn't get that at all from the event description, nor from watching last year's. though i'll grant i didn't sit and watch every one, every one i did see had an AEG employee behind the naga. thus my fury.

Last year, some of the few players that consider themselves loyal to the Naga (Dan Heinrich for sure, Chris Justice maybe) were allowed to play as the Dark Naga, as well Andrew Ornatov (who crushed my pod). I think Chris Stevenson of Strange Assembly was allowed also, but on this point I could be wrong.

The point is that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Ask. If they say no, do something else.

Yes, I got to play as the Dark Naga deck (and won). I think JDT might have taken as turn as the Dark Naga as well. I wanted to play as the Dark Naga because I had been waiting to see a product like this for approximately forever. So before GenCon I contacted Reese about the possibility of getting to pilot the Dark Naga deck, and I ended up being able to (I also played against the Siege deck, using a normal ticket for that).

Ok guys I have an official response for some of the subjects raised in this thread.

Hello Samurai of Rokugan!

The Imperial Couriers have informed us that there are Spider players out there who wish to fight for Rokugan at the upcoming Challenge Booth events at Gen Con and feel they cannot due to the difficulty of including Shadowlands Personalities in their decks. There is a legacy of tainted warriors who have fought against Fu Leng. One such warrior who fought with Toturi during the Clan War was Akodo Godaigo. In Siege: Clan War, we have an optional rule in the rulebook that allows tainted humans to fight against Fu Leng; we call it the Akodo Godaigo rule. We will be using this optional rule at the Challenge Booth events at Gen Con.

This means you may attend the Challenge Booth events with Shadowlands Humans in your decks. Please note the word Human, as Oni and Monsters get no special protection. Now, given that you are still playing with Shadowlands cards in your deck, which is precisely what Fu Leng wants, you will still have a more difficult game than those player without Shadowlands cards in their deck, but with the Akodo Godaigo rule, the game is not the auto-loss for Shadowlands cards it otherwise would be.

Thank you all and see you next week!

That being said, we also face the subject of some players who would wish to side with YoGo Junzo. This is a bit more tricky due to the additional game mechanics involved in the Siege Deck. This is not to say it cannot be played by anyone, but since only a very few players will have seen the Yogo Junzo cards prior to GenCon, this role will be mostly played by individuals who are not going into this event blind. As such we have arranged for Spider players among the AEG volunteers to pilot the Yogo Junzo side for some of the slots. We are also going to add an additional vote to the Spider Clan Dinner. The players who attend will be able to decide 2 individuals to also be awarded chances to play as Yogo Junzo. All Yogo Junzo players will be doing their best to win for the Spider, but we also want to make sure that the Spider clan loyal players have a fair chance to defend their own honor.

man i really don't know how to respond to this so i'm just going to list out my thoughts.

1. thanks for making the effort. really. whatever 2-X end up being, i really do appreciate your efforts in responding to our grievances 2. 2 of our guys get to pilot junzo. cool. wait, 2? why only 2? that sucks. 3. we can play with shadowlands! wait, that still sucks! i don't want HELP FUCKING MY CLAN OVER! WERE WE NOT SUFFICIENTLY CLEAR HERE GUYS?!4. so the one l5r event i scheduled to participate in this gencon, my choice is to either fuck my clan or not participate. amazing. 5. putting aside 3 and 4, all of this information should have been made available to us when the even went up in the gencon event calendar. seriously guys. 6. what the hell guys. is this like premature punishment for Onyx edition or something? why are we alone put into a position where we hurt our own clan. we already pay an honor penalty for running our own personalities, which is a bitter pill enough. this is just shitty.

See this *motions to other spiders* THIS is something that made me glad.

This is a great compromise, one that allows us to impact the event, by championing two of our greatest heroes to seize power and the scrolls.

It ties into the Spider dinner, a well respected example of our community, AND it allows us the chance to cheer on our heroes.

I find nothing wrong with any of this, a perfect compromise. I was expecting them to acknowledge our complain and promise better next time, like they have done before. Instead they actually got shit done, got their hands dirty, and allowed Spider an opportunity to be an active part. changing an event mere days before.

Bravo and thanks, to you John, for being a badass and being a bro, to anyone involved in this decision, for being understanding and responsive, and everyone else for being cool.

THIS is an example of the new direction AEG is taking and I'm liking it. Now I cant wait to see our champions and the outcomes.

Allowing players to take part with their favorite cards and abilities is a wonderful concession to the Spider. I'm very pleased with the turn around.

Again, its a huge improvement and makes me excited to see what happens. We will make sure to send our Darkest Obsidian and Onyx champions (That is their titles now, deal with it) to the event to ensure a scroll is in our grasps.

As for the whole "screw your own clan thing" its just the story guys. Not EVERY aspect has to be for spider. Play your cards and have fun. With two champs marching for spider with a special win condition for us its a nice trade off.

Its really more then I ever expected in such a short span. Just have fun!

while i appreciate their responsiveness, i think they've completely (intentionally or otherwise) missed the nature of our complaint. do you really care that you couldn't use shadowlands personalities, compared to the fact that regardless of if you do or not, you're going to be harming our chances of getting the scrolls by participating?

This was a fairly decent compromise and kudos to AEG for how quickly they responded to the issue at hand. You guys got (and still are) caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to the L5R events at Gen Con.

Seeing that Realm-Borns only benefit the other Great Clans winning a pod as Spider doesn't amount to much unless you use it to protect Spider you wish to remain untainted.

Having the Spider player base at least somewhat represented in the challenge booths is decidedly better than having none at all. But like you guys have pointed out, by competing in the challenge booth events as a Spider you're effectively pitted AGAINST your clan and that's rough.

While I believe a better alternative for Spider players could've been reached (if there was more time between now and Gen Con) I still think this is a step in the right direction.

Hope you guys have a good showing at the Con and make Onyx interesting!

while i appreciate their responsiveness, i think they've completely (intentionally or otherwise) missed the nature of our complaint. do you really care that you couldn't use shadowlands personalities, compared to the fact that regardless of if you do or not, you're going to be harming our chances of getting the scrolls by participating?

They cant change the prize structure this late in the set up, too much needs to be thrown around. Yeah, they can learn a bit and be more thoughtful about it in the future but that they are allowing us, and Spider playing volunteers to send champs forward is an excellent compromise that shows they understand where we are coming from. Actions are far more favorable to words in this case.

I'll take this and be happy. Spider players know that Spider minded people will represent them in the Booth so they can play confidently and try to win their personal games knowing that their champs are working for them.

No its not perfect, I dont think its possible to change it all around, but its a hell of a lot better then before and I will enjoy that.

while i appreciate their responsiveness, i think they've completely (intentionally or otherwise) missed the nature of our complaint. do you really care that you couldn't use shadowlands personalities, compared to the fact that regardless of if you do or not, you're going to be harming our chances of getting the scrolls by participating?

They cant change the prize structure this late in the set up, too much needs to be thrown around. Yeah, they can learn a bit and be more thoughtful about it in the future but that they are allowing us, and Spider playing volunteers to send champs forward is an excellent compromise that shows they understand where we are coming from. Actions are far more favorable to words in this case.

I'll take this and be happy. Spider players know that Spider minded people will represent them in the Booth so they can play confidently and try to win their personal games knowing that their champs are working for them.

No its not perfect, I dont think its possible to change it all around, but its a hell of a lot better then before and I will enjoy that.

Besides..... *whispers* We win in the end anyway

granted. i guess i'm just reluctant to be too effusive with the praise. i'm glad that they responded like they did, like i said. but i mean, it should never have happened. seriously. the fact that AEG thought it would be kosher to have a gencon event which a) dramatically excluded one clan and b) set that same clan up to hurt itself even if it did participate is just like... i mean. i don't even know what it is. it wouldn't happen to any other clan, frankly. but because its the spider, its par.

First off, thank you, John, for coming on here and responding to us. And thank you for reaching out to the Brand Team to allow us to play our humans with Shadowlands decks. It is a kind gesture, if one that does not directly address the chief complaint. I'm certain many of us are curious what the Akodo Godaigo rule is, however? I assume it is, simply, that if we show up with a deck filled with Shadowlands Humans, we won't be barred from play.

The ability to elect two of our own to represent our Clan in the Challenge Booth is, honestly, the more powerful statement.

For this, I have a couple questions:

1) Which Challenge Booths will our Spider Clan Champions (this is what I am calling them, because... dude. They are our CHAMPIONS) be playing for? Is this something we can decide as a Clan?2) Will there be considerations made for Spider Clan players who have already signed up for the Challenge Booth, but will not play even with the Akodo Godaigo rule due to not wanting to deny their faction a story prize by winning?

Any answers would be awesome.

In the meantime... HEY COMMUNITY! I'm making a post on the Spider Clan Dinner for Villains to let them know about this.

Also, if we can decide which Challenge Booths our two Champions play for, which ones do we want?

I have highlighted the two I think are the most important, as the second Challenge Booth for each Scroll is GUARANTEED to be the most important. It either guarantees us the Black Scroll or gives us a shot at it on the third match.

Ok I may not answer these in the exact order you asked but I will do my best.

The two slots that we have assigned are Friday at 9am slot and the Sunday at 9am slot. We felt these slots gave the most ability for your "champions" (ok I will call them this too :p) to participate in other events and to to effect two of the coolest scrolls (imo at least).

The Akodo Godaigo Rule is named for this guy: http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=207,#hashid=97d9f2dfcacafb2f779f6f91e588603a,#cardcount=0 and his story during the 2nd day of thunder. He may have been shadowlands tainted but he wanted to defend the empire. Hence you can play shadowlands AND be helping the other Rokugani clans against Yogo Junzo.

For players who decide against participating in the event, I am very sorry you would make this choice. I do understand though, I just hope that the chance to play cards and enjoy yourself helps mitigate somewhat. Of course Gen Con does do refunds (for credit I believe) or you can typically show up close to the start time and find a player who missed a chance to purchase a ticket and would be willing to trade you generics for your event ticket. Again I know neither of these are perfect solutions but I hope this helps answer your question.

Also to be clear 1. you guys will be represented by both your 2 champions and Spider playing volunteers (Sparks is one of them so you can throw stuff at him). 2. All I did was take your concerns to the team. They are the ones who came up with the solutions.

The Akodo Godaigo Rule is named for this guy: http://imperialassembly.com/oracle/#cardid=207,#hashid=97d9f2dfcacafb2f779f6f91e588603a,#cardcount=0 and his story during the 2nd day of thunder. He may have been shadowlands tainted but he wanted to defend the empire. Hence you can play shadowlands AND be helping the other Rokugani clans against Yogo Junzo.

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