The great education debate

Are you interested in the state of education in this country? Do you feel that the world is changing rapidly but the education system is failing to change at the same pace? As a country are we failing our children by not giving them the opportunity to develop their individual talents and explore the many paths to success? Do you wish to see more about this important education debate on the run up to the election?

Edge is an independent education foundation, dedicated to raising the stature of practical and vocational learning. Edge believes the education system needs to include a broad curriculum that combines academic, practical and vocational learning providing a suitable educational experience for all children.

By developing their Six Steps to Change Manifesto, Edge has outlined the changes they would like to see the three main political parties include which will significantly raise the stature of practical and vocational learning in the UK. But what do you think? How will this change the experience you have of education?

Join Sir Mike and his team, including Pete Henshaw, Editor of widely respected education magazines SecEd and Delivering Diplomas, to discuss this further and have your say on education and in particular on practical and vocational learning. Submit your comments and questions and tune in on the 22nd March to join the debate.

Sir Mike Tomlinson and guests will be joining us live online at www.webchats.tv on Monday 22nd March at 16:30.

For more information and to find the details of the Six Steps to Change visit www.edge.co.uk.

H: Hello I’m Lis Speight and welcome to the Education Show. With the mainstream political parties firming up their education policies ahead of the general election, many people will be listening with baited breath to discover what the likes of Ed Balls, David Lores and Michael Gove will have to offer. The current administration has sought to expand higher education but has this happened at the expense of some of the more practical and vocational base skills?

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H: Well joining me to discuss this and more today is the distinguished educationalist Sir Mike Tomlinson, welcome along Mike, really great to see you today

H: Welcome Pete nice to see you on our sofa today. And also Manny Mander from the Edge Learner’s forum

C: Hi

H: Welcome gentlemen, all of you, really great to see you today. Now we are live, so if you’d like to get involved in our debate on the future of education then please do, all you have to do is to type your name and your question in the box that’s on the screen, press submit, it’ll come through to us here in the studio and we’ll try to get through as many of your questions as we can during the course of our show. But let’s start off by talking a little bit about education over the last decade or so. A lot of young people have been sort of pushed more towards the academic side of education, so getting your O’Levels – your GCSEs rather, your A levels – that’s showing my age there isn’t it? And maybe pushing aside the more vocational skills. What sort of affect do you think this has had maybe on children and on the country in general? Mike?

A: Well I think first of all of course it doesn’t – that particular trike does not meet the needs of every young person. There are many young people who are motivated by the opportunity to use the knowledge they’re gaining in the real world situation particularly related perhaps to some area of career that they might think they’re going to enter at that point in time. So that it has resulted in a number of young people not having the options that they properly want, and more importantly might well succeed in. And we do have a lot of people who are pursuing A levels for whom the ultimate grades do not take them to where they want to be, are not necessarily the qualification that employers are looking for

H: Ok and in your experience of dealing with teachers a lot, is that their experience that the students that are coming through are maybe not up to the academic world, would maybe be suited to something a little bit more vocational?

B: Absolutely I think I mean there’s a – there’s a massive shift in education now where teachers are starting to realise that there’s different capabilities of students, different aptitudes and it’s all about finding them the right pathway, and I think especially in the last few years we’ve really started to see the education system acknowledge this and start saying right A levels might not be as appropriate and there are new routes that they can go on. I think we’ve still got a long way to go to sort of make this sort of system properly effective

H: Right

B: But I definitely think we’ve seen that shift, and it’s a good thing for education that it’s been acknowledged.

H: Ok now Manny you’re actually doing your A levels at the moment, what are you doing?

C: I’m going maths, chemistry, French and English

H: That’s quite a nice mix there

C: Yes

H: Clever boy! So you’re first year of A levels are you?

C: Yes

H: And how are you sort of feeling about the world of work, I mean there’s a lot of good candidates out there and everyone seems to have really good A levels these days don’t they?

C: Yes I mean like everyone seems to be going into the sort of the government sector jobs because they know that’s where they’re guaranteed the jobs, so you’ll see that a lot more people are considering stuff like teaching, pharmacy, medicine rather than say stuff like law and accountancy because they’re not guaranteed a job at the end of it

H: Right

C: Whereas there will always be a need for a teacher or they’ll always be a need for a doctor so the competition in those fields of work are increasing drastically

H: Are you feeling quite positive though about sort of leaving – well it’s a while yet until you’re going to be looking for a job, are you thinking of going on to university?

C: Yes I’m personally glad that it’s my university coming up and not that I’m leaving university looking for a job

H: Right

C: So hopefully by the time I leave the economic recovery should be better and then I’ll have a better job of finding something

H: Yes, so people are quite positive then in your age group do you think?

C: Yes

H: Ok, but there is this new foundation, the Edge Foundation which is looking at changing the way that children are dealt with at school, looking much more at the vocational and practical side of things. Mike, tell us a little bit about how it works?

A: Well Edge is an independent charity and it has a single aim and that is to further advance the idea of the vocational and practical elements of education. It’s to add that practical and applied aspects are just as much hopefully of the academic line as they are of the vocational line

H: Yes

A: So the charity is set up with that single aim, and it has recently issued a manifesto which includes six priorities that they would like to see the government act upon, and the first of these not surprisingly is that students should have the opportunity to learn in the real world, and be inspired by experts who know what they’re doing in that real world

H: Right

A: And importantly as well that that choice should start at 14

H: Right

A: But not to choose a job

H: Ok

A: It’s not to choose a job, it’s to be able to have an option which gives them an applied / vocational element to their studies

H: So some idea really where their studies might be leading

A: Yes. Well of course and young people – many young people at 14 will have a broad idea of where they would like their future to lie, but will not, if I take an example of construction industry, we don’t want at 14 a young person to say I want to be a plumber

H: Yes

A: What we do want is if you’re interested in that very broad construction area, then at 14 you’re going to – the course would help you to see the whole range of what the construction industry has to offer

H: Right

A: Then at 16 or whenever you can then say ooh well I really don’t want to now go in depth and specialise in that area, or maybe that experience says actually I’m not interested in the construction industry at all, I’m really now turned on by engineering

H: So it gives you the time then

A: Yes

H: To explore the world of work and to have a bit more of an idea of where you might be heading when you can get to sort of 16 /18

A: 16. And remember for a lot of young people the fact that it is related to the real world is hugely motivating. They’re not turned on by the study of a subject merely for intrinsic value of that subject, they’re keen to understand how the knowledge is used, and particularly in relation to jobs

H: Yes and Pete how do teachers take this?

B: I think again teachers are becoming more and more turned on to the fact that they have to bring the world into the classroom, whatever classroom that might be – A levels and diplomas, vocational, more vocational qualifications, and I think you’re seeing that more and more ,schools linking with employers, schools bring employers into the classroom

H: Right

B: Actually teachers saying look guys you need to get involved with us and tell us what the students need to be learning, and again you’ve seen that shift in education and so I think that’s sort of evidence of the education system acknowledging this

H: Ok well let’s move onto some of your questions, we’ve had one in from Emily, Mike I think this is probably a question for you, she says “do you think school children are given enough options? When I was at school it was very much presumed that if you did well you’d go to university, I did and now have huge debts while I have a friend who went straight into work and trained as an accountant and they’re now doing really well.” Good on them! So do you think that children are given enough choices – is this what the Edge is all about really?

A: Well Emily I hope you’re watching. Young people at 14 now are given many more options than they were a few years ago

H: Yes

A: The restrictions that the National Curriculum imposed upon schools have been relaxed and so increasingly many young people are offered options which range from the bagful of GCSEs of an academic nature, through to a mixture of the GCSEs and the vocational qualifications. What I think is fair to say at this moment is that is so much dependent on the individual school

H: Right yes

A: But in some cases the options in some schools are very limited because of the decisions made by senior management, and in some cases because for good reason they know what is expected of them by the community they serve. So there is a problem about whether or not, given that we have these options, whether the individual student will have access to them, and it is something the government has sought to deal with in legislation by making it a requirement that every 14 year old has access to those vocational options as well as to the academic ones

H: Now Manny you’re sort of looking at going on to university – are most of your friends going on to university, I mean are those that aren’t, do you think oh dear, what are you doing ? Is there an option to go into the world of work after you finish your A levels or does it just assume that you go on and do university courses?

C: I mean because like during education your main role model is your teacher

H: Right

C: And obviously the teacher’s done the A levels and the university route and you sort of aspire to be them and sort of the majority of my year group are the ones that go to university, so even those that necessarily won’t get the grades, they’re still trying to push themselves to do it

H: Yes

C: Because it’s like they don’t want to be seen as like a less able or – they want to sort of be still with their friends

H: Yes

C: I mean people going into A levels realise that how hard they are, like people think it’s a big jump from GCSEs but people don’t realise it until they come to January and their results come out and it’s a big shock to them, and it’s one year wasted almost

H: Yes

C: When they could have been in something else where they would have succeeded in, but I think it’s just that general idea that although vocational routes are promoted, they’re not promoted enough in schools unless you went out to a college and that’s where you’d really get an insight into it, but in schools you usually get health and social care, construction and like hair and beauty or something – you won’t get very like large range of subjects that are offered

H: Yes. So you don’t actually know what you do want to do or what you want to be

C: No

H: I mean Pete, do you think that some of the vocational courses etc are still sort of seen as a bit of a second class option, because everyone as Manny said does want to go on and do a degree

B: Absolutely I mean I think there’s one major issue which actually impacted on my education was the perception of parents in that I used to do obviously media journalism – I was looking to do a vocational GMVQ – NVQ qualification and it was my father who pushed me down the A level route because my brother before had had a bad experience so my father thought in his perception A levels were solid, you know that’s safe

H: Yes

B: So he put me down that route, and I ended up going to university and doing a vocational degree anyway

H: Yes

B: You know and hopefully either way I’d have turned out ok but I think a big issue we have to actually tackle is the parental view and their view that vocational is somehow lesser than academic

H: Yes, so how do you tackle that then Mike?

A: It’s a slow process and that’s one of the things which Edge is trying to change. It’s very deeply routed in our society this separation of vocation and academic and the value placed on one is greater than the other. It’s always interesting to me that actually when you tackle this in small conversations then you say well is medicine vocational?

H: Of course it is but it’s also hugely academic

A: Is vetinerary science academic? Is account – and suddenly the barriers that are put up begin to be self-defeating. I think the process however will be slow

H: Yes

A: It goes back a long, long way in our history, it’s not an attitude shared by many of our, many of our people in the rest of Europe

H: Yes well that’s a good point actually ,we had quite a few of your questions coming in on this very point, had a question in from Helena – or Helena Tomlinson. She says “are there possible ways to teach academic subjects in vocational ways?” Turn it on its head really

A: Yes there are, and there are some schools doing this and doing it very well, but there’s no reason for example why someone doing science at A level shouldn’t have elements of the course that actually relate the science to the real world outside and indeed give the student the opportunity to perhaps work or visit or be involved with someone who is a practicing scientist

H: Yes

A: So it’s not impossible at all, and many, many schools try. The difficulty for the schools is that there is little credit given for that and that the examination system focuses almost entirely on their capacity to regurgitate knowledge or apply it in a very limited way on paper

H: On that very point actually we’ve had a really good question in from Dan. Manny if I could maybe ask this one –

C: Ok

H: To you – “do you think school kids these days are just taught how to pass exams” which is what Mike was saying “rather than give an actual real world knowledge?” So do you feel that you’re doing your A levels so you can pass your exam rather than to sort of further your life skills?

C: Yes absolutely, I mean a lot of my friends, we’ve done our GCSEs in what – it was about 6 months ago and we don’t remember half the stuff we’ve learnt, it’s just, you sort of drill yourself in revision guard of all the facts and just like write it down and that’s it, you’re out. Because it’s like the general pupil idea is that it’s more about the exam results rather than you as an individual so the school are more bothered about their pass rates and whether they’re going to get 85% 80 Cs or rather than the individual pupil, so they’re just sort of like trying to drill everything into the pupil so that when it comes to say them being, getting low results, they’ll not be able to pinpoint any single teacher or something, so as long as they’ve covered their backs it’s alright

H: Yes. So the system does need looking at doesn’t it? Russell sent a question in “are exams getting easier?” Cover your ears Manny. “I worked my socks off to get straight As at A level and now I’m a manager and recruiting myself it seems that every CV I see has straight As on it. It doesn’t seem fair does it?” So Pete, are exams getting easier, the million dollar question?

B: No. No. I mean firstly whose to say those students on the CVs that Russell’s seeing didn’t work their socks off as well, and I’d actually say that way back when in the ‘70s, ‘80s I would say there were students in the ‘70s and ‘80s which – who went through the education system and didn’t fulfil their potential

H: Yes

B: And so really maybe those stats were the ones which were erroneous. Now I think schools are getting a lot better teachers are a lot better and yes there is an element of getting the students through the exams, actually because schools are graded on those exam results so the pressure is on them, it’s not their fault, they have to do it, the pressure feeds down from the government. Os it’s about bring that parity of esteem with other qualifications and other priorities in education really and not just the cramming to get through the exams

H: Yes. I mean Mike you’ve done a lot of work in Hackney and you were obviously heavily involved with Ofsted as well so you know well that standards in schools have gone up

A: Yes they have. I think the other thing to say to Russell of course is that probably when you did your A levels the only examinations you had were at the end of the two year course

H: Yes, it’s very split now isn’t it?

A: I mean today students are almost examined almost termly. I mean when you start the sixth form your first formal AS level / A level unit exam is in the December time

H: Yes

A: And it goes on after that, so there’s no, as there used to be, lower sixth, first year sixth, year 12 now was the year when you –

H: You had to cram it all!

A: Laze around basically until your exams. Nowadays students are not allowed to do that

H: Yes, yes

A: So there’s a great deal of pressure on them. Secondly of course the examinations have changed in their style

H: Right yes

A: From what they were. Not always for the better but they have changed, so I think students work damn hard at the moment to get their grades

H: Yes we shouldn’t put them down should we?

A: We shouldn’t, we shouldn’t put them down, and we should remember that the competition for what they want to do is so much greater than it used to be

H: Yes, yes

A: And I think it’s always wrong, and it’s unfortunate I think every year we have this terrible, terrible debate about well they’ve got easier haven’t they? The dilemma is we want education to improve –

H: That’s it, but when it does –

A: The first sign that it has we question it, we say it can’t be true

H: Yes. Moving back to vocational, we could talk about exams getting easier all day couldn’t we, but we’ve had a question in from Mr S. Wilson, a head teacher no less, he said “I know there is a perception shift needed from both students and parents and to an extent from teachers on the benefits of vocational training. In my former school I even witnessed bullying of students who were taking NVQs by other students who considered them less able. What are Edge doing to make this much needed change in attitudes happen?”

A: Well we’re doing an awful lot both in terms of advertising and articles and items in the national press, which raises this fundamental question of our attitudes towards young people

H: Because other countries it’s not –

A: It’s not. I mean if you go into Denmark, to France, to Germany to Sweden and so on, all of those countries have vocational courses which are highly regarded

H: Yes.

A: I mean Germany for example you cannot practice a particular profession vocation profession unless you have the master title in front of it, and so it’s highly regarded. It’s only in this country we have this sort of attitude towards it, and it is tough but Edge are doing a lot in terms of publicity, doing a lot in terms of supporting projects which are seeking to help schools, colleges and employers overcome this, and producing materials and of course lobbying as widely as they can across the spectrum of parents, because parents as already been said by Pete are key people –

H: Yes you’ve got to get them on side

A: You’ve got to get them to understand that following a vocational course is not a second best option

H: No. And teachers are key of course as well

A: Of course, of course. Most parents – most teachers are parents anyway

H: True. And Andrew sent a question in, Pete if I can throw this one to you “do you think the incentive schemes for new teachers such as student loan pay-offs and grants is the right way to get more people into teaching, and is it attracting the right sort of teachers?”

B: I think any scheme to get people to consider teaching is very important. I think that teaching needs to attract all manner of people, I mean there’s been a lot of talk about the 2:1 degree, the benchmark there which I think might be erroneous. You need the academics but you equally need the people who are skilled at handling students, that social interaction, that side of things, inspiring and engaging, and those sort of people come from all walks of life, so really I think we need to be doing all we can to give incentives to get people into profession

H: Yes. I mean teaching did used to be this sort of oh I suppose I’ll go into teaching but it’s actually very well paid now isn’t it and you always get the holidays as well, can’t complain about those. Don’t get me started on that one. We’re almost out of time actually but we’ve got a question in from Simon, bit of a tricky one this, which party do you trust most on education?” Tricky one, Mike

A: I reserve judgement on this question until I know more about what each of the parties is going to offer

H: Yes

A: At the moment we have a lot of headlines from the different three major parties, but we don’t necessarily have the substance underneath it, and it’s when we get the substance that I will make my own decisions –

H: Well what would you like to hear though?

A: Well I think what I would like to hear is first of all I’d like to hear them say that they’re going to trust teachers, much more than they do at the present time. That they’re going to invest in them in terms of their professional development, because unless we keep teachers up-to-date, then they’re not going to be able to deliver the sorts of courses and the quality that we want. And I’d also like them very much to look at this question of the divide between academic and vocational

H: Yes

A: Not just in terms of courses, but the way we teach, the way we deal with teachers in the further education and the school sector where we have that same divide that means it’s almost impossible for FE Teachers to move into schools where they’re wanted, they can only be there as instructors on a salary £6000 less than their counterparts in the school. Os I want to see us tackling this gap, this perceived gap

H: Yes

A: And giving – I don’t want – I still want academic to be challenging

H: Yes

A: I’m not arguing for any sort of dumbing down, I’m arguing really for giving the vocational a significantly higher profile and higher –

H: Equally as good. Now Pete what would you like to see coming up from the three parties?

B: I would say – I echo a lot –well all of what Mike said. I’d actually quite like to see a hung parliament. I think –

H: Dangerous

B: Given what we’ve heard, and I agree with Mike that there’s – a lot of what we heard there’s not much substance behind it but it might actually be very good for education and for a lot of the good things that have happened in recent years

H: Manny what – I mean it’s a big question but what would you want to hear from politicians? You’ve been speaking to a lot of young people over the last year or so haven’t you because you’re on the Edge Learner’s forum. What are young people out there saying?

C: I think everyone, the general consensus is that sort of get a shift off the national curriculum

H: Right

C: Because like you said it’s very driven that you’ve got to learn the facts and that and maybe be able to explore around the subject area , be able to develop your understanding more than – rather than learning more facts

H: Yes

C: Understand the facts you’ve already learnt. It’s not because – most of the stuff you learn in GCSEs and A levels, you’re not going to use them in life really, so you can cut out a lot and just put it relevant to life, so when you do enter life and you know that hang on, yes I can use what I learnt at school, or when you’re learning it at school yes I can see the relevance of it, because a lot of what you learn at school you’re just – kids are demotivated oh we’re never going to use this again or what’s the point of this, and then teachers don’t have an answer because they too feel the same but it’s just that they have to teach you that in order to pass the exams

H: Yes it’s all interesting stuff isn’t it, well we could talk about this all day but unfortunately we are out of time, so Mike Tomlinson, thanks very much for coming in, Pete Henshaw as well and also Manny good luck with all your study. Well for more information and to find details of the six steps to change, and to view the election broadcast you can go to the website which is www.edge.co.uk so what do you think about education, do you think it’s too academic and not vocational enough? Well if you go to the website you can have your say and you never know the politicians might just be listening. Thanks very much for watching, bye bye