Interesting, I remember seeing the report a while ago. Made me think of two things: 1) it must've been written before the monopulse AIM-7M appeared in 1982, and 2) when did the Soviet MLDs get the R-73? I seem to recall that they went to FLANKER units first.

In june 1982, I was 15 years old, and I heard from our radio and watched news-in terse way- and after TV news that Israel downed more than 100 syrian aircrafts, many of them were Mig 23.In the moment I did not pay attention, but few years later I tried to interrest in aircrafts, and most of the news military newspapers that I read in frenetic way, took the the informations from wolrd press agencies. This information in fact was a pure lye, and said by Israeli military propaganda. For me, and many of my friends Mig-23 beside the T-72, represented what was soviet military hardware, old, none quality, useless, old fashionned.

http://www.aviation-time.kiev.ua/eng/article.php?IDA=10

The rest I leave you reading what Vladimir Illyin said about this so-called israeli success

As a whole fighters of Syria AF annihilated 42 aircraft of Israeli AF (including, as minimum, five F-15A and six F-16A) and one remote piloted aircraft in the course of dogfights from the 6th to the 12th of June (that day cease-fire has been signed). At the same time Syria AF lost 47 aircraft (four МиГ-23МС, six МиГ-23МФ, twenty six МиГ-21бис and eleven МиГ-21МФ). Besides Israeli F-16A fighters annihilated seven Су-22М fighter-bombers and some МиГ-23БН.

It is possible to explane some odds in Israel favour by the following reasons: difference in aviation machinery capabilities, wider use of early-warning and ECM aircraft, better fighters tactics in fight, higher level of fighter pilots' flying and tactical training. Besides Israeli observers noted poor moral standard of Syrian pilots. Some of them "flew as if expected that their aircraft will be brought down" (perhaps the last statement belongs to "psychological war" sphere).Appraising results of military application of fighters in the fight above Bekaa lowland a "great Israeli commander" (he wanted to be unknown for readers) said in interview to Flight International magazine: "In my estimation: Soviet aircraft are very good judging from our knowledges about their capabilities and that we saw in practice. But Syrian pilots often acted not then, when it is necessary and not there, where it is necessary...."

However in spite of favorable for Syria outcome of fights during the 9th-11th of June USA won in "informational war". This victory was result of large propagandistic campaign conducted by USA and directed first of all against Soviet Union. Information about losses in Lebanon published in Israel had pronounced propagandistic character. According to these data Israeli AF annihilated 102 aircraft of Syria AF and at the same time lost only one aircraft brought down from land. However the general world public learned results of this war almost exclusively from messages of American news agencies which almost completely repeated information of Israeli sources. There is nothing surprising that Israelis have underestimated their losses and overstated enemy's losses. Eventually war is war and every historian knows that messages of Sovinformbureau, German Ministry of Propaganda or American commander are not good sources for researches of war 1941-1945. Nevertheless USA could use their most power in the world propaganda for discredit of Soviet aviation industry as well as for advancement of their aviation machinery, in particular, F-16 fighters with formed reputation of "МиГ killers". In such conditions Israeli victorius reports skilfully used by USA were excellent present to American aircraft building firms.

However it is necessary to note that west specialists often called in question Israeli messages. Thus Dr.J.Chorba, President of Washington Centre of Internatinal Safety, who visited Israel on a commission from American Government shortly after finishing of military operations in Lebanon, told that Israelis refused to give him any concrete information concerning use of "new American weapon" in the military operations. Timid attempts of Soviet Government to disprove Israeli version of the fights in Lebanon and to save home aviation industry's reputation by means of TASS were delated and clumsy. TASS message of the 15th of August, 1982 informed that "in military operations above Bekaa lowland Syria AF annihilated about 70 Israeli aircraft including the lastest type machinery". But this message remained unnoticed neither abroad nor in USSR.

It is important to highlight the very good behaviour of the Mig 23, and its relative success regarding the fact that it was built normally against Tornado and matching the flying-plow F-4 E Phantom II. It did not be concept to match neither F-15, or F-16.Despite that the Mig-23 Flogger performed a fair score. Unfortunetly this hoax caused a severe prejudice not only the syrian army, but the soviet -russian- weaponnery too. Allowing US military machine to sell more easily than ever its hardwares.Unfortunetly in that time, there was not Internet, only for us, very oriented newspapers leaving us with complete dark.

PS: Request, if it is possible in this forum to have a special topic dedicated to history. Obviously if it is possible. Is it also possible to move this subject in another topic, as I wrote about a soviet/russian aircraft.Thanks for all.

marcinko wrote:Is there any hard proof regarding the Eagles ?That would be very useful

The Mig-23 Flogger is the most misunderstood fighter, and the most despised in history of soviet weaponnery. Most misunderstood because this aircraft is a transition between SU-15, and SU-27. It could be seen too as an intermediate between, Mig-25 and Mig-29. In fact this fighter bomber is far better than the Phantom II, and the F-105, but could match F-14, F-18, F-16, Tornado and obviously F-15, if inside, you have a competent pilot. If during Desert Storm -1991- several Mig-23 ML were downed, many US coalition aircrafts were downed and damaged, far more than the US DoD could admit.

Despised because us in western countries are completly misinformed, and the tragedy is, we, more than any other people in the world, believe strongly in the lies peddled by our diabolic medias. As the war in Lebanon was fight between soviet weaponneries, and US weaponneries, became the baseline of what we believe about soviet fighters, we all rely on one of the hugest slander against the Mig-23. The problem in the 80's and 90's we had no other alternatives, other than moving out of west countries. Nevertheless, proofs against this stupid lie existed everywhere, but our brains were conditionned by western medias, and we could not imagine other things that we were taught. I spent my youth with room full of books, videos, and special newspapers about everything relating military. Nowadays, with Internet I understood that near all what I read is simply hoaxes.

The great criticism I have against Soviet Union, and Russia, they did not do enough efforts to save their own aviation industry's and know-how reputation. In fact, untill 2010, neither Soviet Union or Russia did significant efforts to refute the lies. More than anyone, soviet, or russian specialists are very well aware about the capacities of US air fleet worth, and they think it is no use to tell more. But us ? And us ? Iam not a specialist, I wish to have opinion of russians about what's happened. In fact, russians think they are a great people -it is true-, they have a multimillenaires culture -it is true too-, those who are interresting by russians affairs, they must learn russian tongue, and access to russian sites. I think it is not a good approach, we need Russia, we need russians, we need russians informations in every tongue, at least in english.

Please take a look here in this Topic.Obviously here too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23

marcinko wrote:Is there any hard proof regarding the Eagles ?That would be very useful

The Mig-23 Flogger is the most misunderstood fighter, and the most despised in history of soviet weaponnery. Most misunderstood because this aircraft is a transition between SU-15, and SU-27. It could be seen too as an intermediate between, Mig-25 and Mig-29. In fact this fighter bomber is far better than the Phantom II, and the F-105, but could match F-14, F-18, F-16, Tornado and obviously F-15, if inside, you have a competent pilot. If during Desert Storm -1991- several Mig-23 ML were downed, many US coalition aircrafts were downed and damaged, far more than the US DoD could admit.

Despised because us in western countries are completly misinformed, and the tragedy is, we, more than any other people in the world, believe strongly in the lies peddled by our diabolic medias. As the war in Lebanon was fight between soviet weaponneries, and US weaponneries, became the baseline of what we believe about soviet fighters, we all rely on one of the hugest slander against the Mig-23. The problem in the 80's and 90's we had no other alternatives, other than moving out of west countries. Nevertheless, proofs against this stupid lie existed everywhere, but our brains were conditionned by western medias, and we could not imagine other things that we were taught. I spent my youth with room full of books, videos, and special newspapers about everything relating military. Nowadays, with Internet I understood that near all what I read is simply hoaxes.

The great criticism I have against Soviet Union, and Russia, they did not do enough efforts to save their own aviation industry's and know-how reputation. In fact, untill 2010, neither Soviet Union or Russia did significant efforts to refute the lies. More than anyone, soviet, or russian specialists are very well aware about the capacities of US air fleet worth, and they think it is no use to tell more. But us ? And us ? Iam not a specialist, I wish to have opinion of russians about what's happened. In fact, russians think they are a great people -it is true-, they have a multimillenaires culture -it is true too-, those who are interresting by russians affairs, they must learn russian tongue, and access to russian sites. I think it is not a good approach, we need Russia, we need russians, we need russians informations in every tongue, at least in english.

Please take a look here in this Topic.Obviously here too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23

I fully agree with you regarding the way people view the Flogger.To be honest I sort of analyzed it thru the same glass, then I saw the huge differences between versions what an MLD can do etc.

Thing is, we need solid proof that the 23 shot down that many and so diverse IAF fighters. I mean come on, if you are the military then publish some damn gun camera footage, brag about what what your pilots do.

marcinko wrote:Thing is, we need solid proof that the 23 shot down that many and so diverse IAF fighters. I mean come on, if you are the military then publish some damn gun camera footage, brag about what what your pilots do.

Hey! Friend, things does not run like that, in real environnement of conflict, in real battlefield! It is the war, informations as images are weapons like others, and sometimes they are more strategics. All the proofs you could have, in the best cases, if the belligerants are honnest, are wreckages. The false footages U can find or create hundreds, and hundreds, if not thousands. I think you are like me, U grew up in western country, and as me you are hypnotized like me when I was, in the best case, you are conditionned like I was. US propaganda create special services dedicated to publish false footages, they are very vicious, because at first many of these footage were designed with softwares, mix with true footages got from Top Gun exercises, or something like that, and they mix, they mix, in order to subjugate those who see the footage. Once you have the monopole of media, and informations, you can say what you want. If you want an hollywood scenario happy end like Buck Danny, the scenario will end like Buck Danny. If you want to say that an F-15 downed 1.000 SU-27, you can say it. The only thing that could help you, in order to analyze, is the overcome of the conflict. A simple example :During summer 2014 Israel launched a big operation against Gaza. Specialists of Zionist entity pretended their Trophy 4 could stop all anti tank missiles,including Kornet, and their shield anti missile could stop all rockets launched into Israel. They claimed that their system is effective at nearly 90%, for the Trophy nearly 100%. In Wikipedia, another weapon of western propaganda take a look of what israelis claimed about the AT-14 Spriggan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M133_Kornet

During the fighting between Israel and Hamas in Gaza in the summer of 2014, of the 15 anti-tank missiles which launched on Israeli tanks that were intercepted by the Israeli active protection system "Trophy", most were of the Kornet type. In some cases the Kornet launchers were destroyed after the "Trophy" system has detected the launch and directed the tank's main gun to the launcher position.

This is the usual israeli tactic, they claimed that their system was efficient. In other side, Palestinians obviously claimed the contrary. What is true ? What is false ? Only few bad quality footages. If your systems were really effectives, why Israel did not enter into Gaza ? Why during nearly more than one month, Israel economy was stopped, no schools, no bus, no trains, no electricity, all centrals were stopped, in fact all was stopped. The israelis dared to enter in Gaza only 300 meters. By constrast, in 2008 -palestinians had not the Kornet in that time-, in few hours, Israelis tanks were in Gaza city, they arrested many palestinians high responsibles. In 2014, after only few days, Israel asked Egypt, US, UK, Russsia, and Turkey to do all possible to obtain a ceasefire. Another example, during Gulf war I in 1991, US propaganda -US great networks provided I don't know how much footages- claimed that US air force destroyed more than 80% of iraqi air force during the first days, if not few weeks -I don't recall-. However, after the war, the facts prove the exact opposite.

My conclusion, as Israel did not dare a ground invasion, and its economy was completly paralyzed, Nettyahu asked quickly ceasefire, then Trophy protection was completly ineffective, and as usual the truth is not in Israel's side. Things run like that. If we could easily access to the truth, we need no medias, we don't need historians, we don't need Internet, there were no unfair, the world would be perfect. But things does not run like that.

Currently there seems to be a massive hatred of MiG-23s which is the under appreciated aircraft between the MiG-21 and 29. People left and right are claiming that it had very poor maneuverability.

However, compared to its main enemy, the F-14, I thought this was false. However there are claims that the F-14 had a factory G limit of 9Gs compared to the MiG-23's 8Gs and that the only reason the F-14 didn't turn so hard usually was for cost saving measures. Supposedly F-14's were capable of achieving 11Gs with no problem for a short time. Could the MiG-23 do the same?

Also what makes you think the aircraft that can pull the most g is superior?

Currently there seems to be a massive hatred of MiG-23s which is the under appreciated aircraft between the MiG-21 and 29.

And that surprises you?

Have you been told the funny one that there are holes in the design of the MiG-23s jet intake inlets because they were copied directly from the inlets of an F-4 Phantom shot down in Vietnam which had sustained bullet holes when it was brought down and they copied those as part of the design because they are so stupid.

Have they told you that continuous variable wing sweep is superior to the fixed wing sweep of the MiG-23?

Yeah, F-14s can pull 11g and of course when they are not babying them they can get them up to mach 3, and their radar can see the freckles on the noses of the pilots of the planes they shoot down at 300km range....

There was an account of an F-14 turning very high Gs in order to spoof an iraqi SAM.http://www.f-14association.com/tales/my-most-tense-moment-in-the-26-years-of-flying-f-14s.html

F-14 pilot snodgrass wrote:Fortunately I was looking at the right piece of sky as the missile cleared the clouds. I immediately saw it had constant bearing and big time decreasing range. I immediately rolled the Tomcat into the missile and pulled 8-10 G's while deploying chaff to aid in breaking the missile's radar lock. The missile exploded just above and behind me.

However I'm sure if needed, the MiG-23 could achieve similarly high Gs in an instantaneous turn, but I have no proof to back that up.

Also an advantage toted by the F-14 was supposedly the Central Air Data Computer (the first microprocessor in the world) to manage wing sweep settings throughout the flight regime while the MiG-23's wing sweeps were entirely manual.

Tomcat into the missile and pulled 8-10 G's while deploying chaff to aid in breaking the missile's radar lock

So which was it... 8gs or 10gs?

The amusing thing is that western aircraft have hard limits on their flight control systems and cannot override them... the American pilots were fascinated that the flight control system for the MiG-29 had soft limits so as the pilot pulled the stick nearer and nearer to a limit imposed by the flight control system the stick would get heavier and heavier... but unlike western aircraft the Soviet pilot could pull through the heavy stick to turn harder if that was needed... I remember in the late 1980s and early 1990s they went on about these soft limits letting the pilot turn harder if they think it was needed at the time.

If he really was a pilot in the debriefing he would have been told how many gs he pulled and he would need to justify doing that to avoid getting into trouble for potentially damaging the aircraft.

However I'm sure if needed, the MiG-23 could achieve similarly high Gs in an instantaneous turn, but I have no proof to back that up.

What you need to do is look up the M-23 which is the target version used to test SAMs... from memory the g limit is 11 and the low altitude flight speed and high altitude flight speeds are rather higher because they are not expected to last for years.

In other words it can do this... but you might reduce the airframes lifespan by quite a bit... for a target that does not matter of course.

Also an advantage toted by the F-14 was supposedly the Central Air Data Computer (the first microprocessor in the world) to manage wing sweep settings throughout the flight regime while the MiG-23's wing sweeps were entirely manual.

Yeah... it takes Americans to make something really really complicated... and when the Soviets do it it is nice and simple and does not need a microprocessor to power it...

The MiG-23 has basically three wing sweep settings... straight for takeoff and landing, max sweep for lowest drag highest speed flight and mid sweep for max energy reduced drag for manouvering... you have the wings swept forward for take off and when you land... most of the rest you either have a mid sweep for cruising and max manouver performance and swept back for high speed flight... it is not fucking rocket science... changing the sweep thirty times a second is just a waste of time... an F-16 is a much better dogfighter than an F-14 and it doesn't change its wing sweep at all.

A MiG-23 with a mid sweep setting is like an F-16... the difference is that the MiG-23 can sweep its wings back and accelerate faster and fly faster and with its wings swept forward it can land on much shorter airstrips.

I remember chatting to Tom on another forum in the late 90s and early 00s... he is unusual amongst americans in thinking the Iranians are not all bad and the source of terrorism in the universe... probably because he loves the F-14...

He also had a pathological hatred for the MiG-29 for some reason too...

Interesting to see a yank without the hatred blinkers regarding Iran, but otherwise hardly an unbiased source...

Of course it has been a while so he might have changed his tune... he was happy to go against the grain regarding demonising Iran, really don't know his current stance on Russia or China.

GarryB wrote:I remember chatting to Tom on another forum in the late 90s and early 00s... he is unusual amongst americans in thinking the Iranians are not all bad and the source of terrorism in the universe... probably because he loves the F-14...

I haven't seen his views on Iranians but he's sympathetic to arabs, as his volumes on arab MIGs and other works show.

Interesting to see a yank without the hatred blinkers regarding Iran, but otherwise hardly an unbiased source...

I'm from the US too and totally oppose the anti-Iran attitude, which ultimately stems from the pro-Israel bunch here.

I'm from the US too and totally oppose the anti-Iran attitude, which ultimately stems from the pro-Israel bunch here.

The irony is that the US is hitching its horse to Saudi Arabia... which really is the source of arab terrorism around the world... Iran has military forces in Iraq and Syria only because America broke those two countries with its interference and the resulting chaos got them invited in to help.

But the leadership of the US can't see that... and the Israelis don't care... as far as they are concerned the more they fight amongst themselves the less attention murder in the Gaza strip will get in WESTERN international media.