ADDING: To get back on topic, there's a more detailed post on the top of this page relating to it. Although it may rub people the wrong way bringing Christianity into it. But it does show what basically happened to the many myths about America. And how those who hold power can "disney-fy" history.

__________________"If we are all united, we can take back our lives. While they stand divided, we can fight them and their laws. If we get up off our knees, we can show them that we are people. We can take back this "free" country! - Anti-Flag

I really don't think you can compare what the Americans did to the Indians to what the Nazis did. There's land grabbing, pogroms, forced relocation, and forced assimilation, and then there's what the Germans did. Building a network of industrial killing factories to murder, exploit and torture millions (including children). In the 20th century no less (for you moral relativists out there).

Americans (and other Europeans in the New World) usually did what they did out of greed, for land and resources. True Americans hated the Indians, but they never tried to outright exterminate them. Even Indian massacres were controversial in their day.

Now Southerners and black people, that might have headed into Nazi territory, if the rest of the country hadn't interfered.

No. But one does have to wonder what would have happened if there wasn't an emancipation, and slavery would have continued. The atrocities of the 20th century suggest that wouldn't have ended well. Mix that with 20th century Southern racism... and you got crimes against humanity waiting to happen.

Then again, it's just as plausible that there would have been a mass slave uprising in the late 19th century or early 20th century, and there would have been countless massacres. I.e. the white Southerners' worst fear.

No. But one does have to wonder what would have happened if there wasn't an emancipation, and slavery would have continued. The atrocities of the 20th century suggest that wouldn't have ended well. Mix that with 20th century Southern racism... and you got crimes against humanity waiting to happen.

Wellllll...maybe. While there were human rights issues here, we should still address context. Slaves were an incredibly valuable asset; it doesn't make sense to eradicate them. On the other hand, if their populations were allowed to increase in size, it's entirely possible that attempts would have been made to stop that growth...

Also, consider that the vast majority of slave owners were family-owners of small farms. It's rather well-documented that slaves on these farms - while slaves, yes - were treated rather well, especially in comparison with those "employed" on large plantations.

I cringe with embarrassment everytime I here some stupid British person talk trash about Germany or bring up World War 2 in any conversation to do with Germany.

Its never actual veterans or people around during the time its always people born after world war 2 who for some reason act like they were involved with the conflict themselves.

Its not every British person but there are a large number of vocal idiots who do show germans a lack of tact, respect and foster stupid outdated stereotypes.

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Originally Posted by Marvolo

Absolutely not. The German people of today and future generations are not Nazi's. Same as American's today are not the same people that commited genocide against the Indians. We can't help what our bigoted racist ancestor's did.

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Originally Posted by Manic

Show me a great nation and I'll show you a long list of atrocities it's committed.

I'm not defending anything. I'm just saying people are F'd up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Im not sure if that guy was being sincere or not, but much of his views on Germany are wrong. Beautiful place with great food. I do find it ironic a Brit critiquing another country's cuisine.

I did laugh at what he said about the language. "A type writer eating tinfoil whilst being kicked down the stairs." I love the language but that had me rolling.

Dylan Moran is Irish.

Not to be rude but many foreigners don't even know what modern British cuisine is I have often found.

Did you even read my post? Hitler knew how to keep appearances, that last message is in Albert Speer's memoirs.

Go truly look into it. The whole Aryan purity thing didn't play out in practice. They rounded up certain "suspect races" but in the end it was mostly economics that drove who they rounded up and who they didn't. Many of the Jewish populations they rounded up were rounded up for their wealth initially, and it helped that Jews were already pretty well hated. Anti-Semitics were all the rage at the time, kind of like hating black people was big in America. It's actually not surprising Germany, or any of Europe, eventually got an anti-Semite as a leader, England, Germany, France and Italy all had issues with anti-jewish sentiment. After Germany got royally screwed following WWI, much of the country and continent blamed Jews for their issues, and the Depression. In Germany there was not nearly the ire against blacks as there was against Jews and gypsies and you'll find that not nearly as many blacks were shipped off to camp. There are many first hand accounts from blacks in Germany during the Third Reich and they report being treated better than American blacks. The SS was given certain instructions against them, but they went largely unfollowed because they were so few in number and not concentrated so no one ever really cared, Hitler included. They just ignored them. Mostly it was Jews, gypsies and communists who were done in en masse. The reason America framed it as racial purity is because A) we kind of pushed the same crap and B) it made the Nazi's seemed more ideologically evil, whereas they were more or less imperialist a**holes, but going that route blurs the line to much with America.

Most of what you learn about World War II is propaganda. Burning of the Reichstagg wasn't the Nazis. It's funny, we readily accept a Nazi conspiracy but can explain why the 9/11 conspiracy is hogwash. Same thing, the Reichstagg wasn't some conspiracy, what happened actually happened and it was the politically opportunistic Hitler who used it to his advantage. Even in history class. Kind of like how they never teach the Mexican War as illegal and just a land grab, or how they never teach Andrew Jackson like the American Hitler. It forgives us for our sins so we can condemn the losers. I'm not defending Hitler or being anti-Semitic, but their racial double standards were not ours and that may or may not be the only difference. We did kill a lot of slaves and blacks that we *failed* to document, we massacred the Indians and cooked the books on that as well. One of the reasons Nazi's official kill count is so disputed is Germany took pains to cover their tracks, because when you're ethically cleansing an area you don't exactly want to leave a whole lot of evidence. That's basically what Hitler was doing: getting rid of political and economic opposition. Jews were never going to support the Nazis, for obvious reasons, so they piggybacked existing prejudices against them. Which is what we did/do as well when racist politicians ran to high office in our country. I think perhaps our term limits and style of Government and gridlock prevent us from having the methodical precision of the Nazis.

But no, a lot of the blind racism we attribute to Hitler is trying to paint him as *worse* than our racists. Kind of like saying "hating black people is bad but he hates Jews TOO", which is really ironic because much of the segregated South wanted to oust Catholics and Jews and a few other groups as well, it wasn't always just about black people, although they focused heavily on black people.

I cringe with embarrassment everytime I here some stupid British person talk trash about Germany or bring up World War 2 in any conversation to do with Germany.

Its never actual veterans or people around during the time its always people born after world war 2 who for some reason act like they were involved with the conflict themselves.

Its not every British person but there are a large number of vocal idiots who do show germans a lack of tact, respect and foster stupid outdated stereotypes.

By and large, I've found the German-bashers are people who weren't even alive at the time, and the veterans respected the German soldiers. Of course, there are also vets who held lifelong hatred for Germans, but overall the people who came along after the war ironically are usually the ones more hateful about it.

None of the Band of Brothers guys, with like one or two exceptions, had anything against the Germans. In the behind-the-scenes interviews, one of them (don't remember which) said he often thinks about the German soldiers he killed, and thinks they could have been good friends.

The British and German veterans of the North African campaign have an integrated reunion annually where they go out as one big rowdy gang and buy each other drinks.

Ironic they have no problem with each other, but some 30 year olds try to paint the Germans as eeeevvvilllll. Those veterans who actually fought the Germans would be shaking their heads.

__________________

Quote:

In the rain the pavement shines like silver
All the lights are misty in the river...

Go truly look into it. The whole Aryan purity thing didn't play out in practice. They rounded up certain "suspect races" but in the end it was mostly economics that drove who they rounded up and who they didn't. Many of the Jewish populations they rounded up were rounded up for their wealth initially, and it helped that Jews were already pretty well hated. Anti-Semitics were all the rage at the time, kind of like hating black people was big in America. It's actually not surprising Germany, or any of Europe, eventually got an anti-Semite as a leader, England, Germany, France and Italy all had issues with anti-jewish sentiment. After Germany got royally screwed following WWI, much of the country and continent blamed Jews for their issues, and the Depression. In Germany there was not nearly the ire against blacks as there was against Jews and gypsies and you'll find that not nearly as many blacks were shipped off to camp. There are many first hand accounts from blacks in Germany during the Third Reich and they report being treated better than American blacks. The SS was given certain instructions against them, but they went largely unfollowed because they were so few in number and not concentrated so no one ever really cared, Hitler included. They just ignored them. Mostly it was Jews, gypsies and communists who were done in en masse. The reason America framed it as racial purity is because A) we kind of pushed the same crap and B) it made the Nazi's seemed more ideologically evil, whereas they were more or less imperialist a**holes, but going that route blurs the line to much with America.

Most of what you learn about World War II is propaganda. Burning of the Reichstagg wasn't the Nazis. It's funny, we readily accept a Nazi conspiracy but can explain why the 9/11 conspiracy is hogwash. Same thing, the Reichstagg wasn't some conspiracy, what happened actually happened and it was the politically opportunistic Hitler who used it to his advantage. Even in history class. Kind of like how they never teach the Mexican War as illegal and just a land grab, or how they never teach Andrew Jackson like the American Hitler. It forgives us for our sins so we can condemn the losers. I'm not defending Hitler or being anti-Semitic, but their racial double standards were not ours and that may or may not be the only difference. We did kill a lot of slaves and blacks that we *failed* to document, we massacred the Indians and cooked the books on that as well. One of the reasons Nazi's official kill count is so disputed is Germany took pains to cover their tracks, because when you're ethically cleansing an area you don't exactly want to leave a whole lot of evidence. That's basically what Hitler was doing: getting rid of political and economic opposition. Jews were never going to support the Nazis, for obvious reasons, so they piggybacked existing prejudices against them. Which is what we did/do as well when racist politicians ran to high office in our country. I think perhaps our term limits and style of Government and gridlock prevent us from having the methodical precision of the Nazis.

But no, a lot of the blind racism we attribute to Hitler is trying to paint him as *worse* than our racists. Kind of like saying "hating black people is bad but he hates Jews TOO", which is really ironic because much of the segregated South wanted to oust Catholics and Jews and a few other groups as well, it wasn't always just about black people, although they focused heavily on black people.

These black soldiers peacefully surrendered and were tortured and slaughtered by Nazi soldiers.

One of the reasons Nazi's official kill count is so disputed is Germany took pains to cover their tracks, because when you're ethically cleansing an area you don't exactly want to leave a whole lot of evidence.

The Nazis methodically documented their actions.

__________________

Quote:

In the rain the pavement shines like silver
All the lights are misty in the river...

This is incorrect. We only have about 3 million documented as massacred in the camps (from various locations). We know from population surveys there were more. This is one of those things that baffles me that it gets repeated. They recorded very little information about those they gased.

The "11 million" figure comes from a drop in European population(s) between the era when Hitler rose to power to their defeat, it's also what was officially accepted at Nuremberg (remember it's a war trial, and with Germany being the loser, the Allies got to write this part themselves), and probably at least a decent approximation. Of Nazi documents they have about 1 to 3 million as actually documented by the Nazis, they also know this has to be incomplete because they tried to destroy a lot of records towards the end when they knew the Allies would win. However the charge that the Nazis documented every death is not only impossible it's also completely false. Some concentration camps kept better records than others and some didn't even keep records at all, and some didn't even run themselves like other concentration camps, and were kind of run like factories or served different purposes. However the main ones usually had some informal record keeping system.

Also the Nazis accelerated the massacre towards the end of the war, and abandoned several ghettos and camps leaving the Jews there to starve and die of disease, and never documented any of this, so no, that statement is blatantly false.