How so? What is murder? Murder is illegal killing. Who makes it legal or illegal? You? How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

I am blown away that you are actually trying to represent this as something you believe in. At this point you just sound like you're playing devils advocate or trolling. Or you are so brainwashed (obvious) that this kind of nonsense actually makes sense to you. WOW.

Seriously? Then please present your evidence they didn't deserve the death penalty? You cannot call God evil for destroying them if you have no real evidence either way.

Statistically speaking there were infants under 1 hour old, or even birthed during the alledged deluge, as such they were incapable of doing acts that deserve the death penalty, even by fairly barbarous standards. As such, your Deity, if he actually existed and the deluge actually happened(neither is the case), would be at a moral level less than any known civilization, given to standards of selection of those deemed unworthy were so high, that even the policies of the Third Reich seem rather lax in comparison.

Therefore if we were to say the Bible is the word of God, it would be the equivalent to a written admission of guilt, an even clearer smoking gun than any of the evidence used for the Nuremberg trials as to determining guilt. Thus God, were he to exist, would not even rise to the level of morality, and exceed the level of culpability, of the perpetrators of the final solution. The words are generally humorous hyperbola, but "worse than Hitler' would be an accurate description.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

What is murder? Murder is illegal killing. Who makes it legal or illegal? You? How do you know those people didn't deserve death?

My new sig. Few quotes portray the bloodthirsty immorality of Christian ethics as well as this.

Yep.

"They all deserved death. Every last one of 'em."

"How do you know?"

"They're dead, ain't they?"

Sounds like the dialogue from a bad Tarantino film. Or something from a horrible dictator like Idi Amin or Saddam Hussein. Or something the Christian Crusaders or Mongols might have said after sacking a city. These are not the actions of a loving god. Or an even halfway decent god. These are not the actions of a halfway decent human being, from the most barbaric culture imaginable. These are the morals of Stalin.

Because the only way we know they deserved death is because dictator/god said they did. (I'll bet he didn't even use his inside voice.) They were just so gosh darned evil. Sooooo evil. Darth Vader, Professor Moriarty, Lex Luthor, Kardashian-level, street mime evil. Could god have just made everyone good? Sure. But free will.[1]

And therefore, god interrupted the rampant evilness and killed all the men, women, children, teenagers, elderly people, mentally handicapped people, toddlers, and newborn babies on the planet. Plus the animals that did not make it onto the ark. Including puppies, kittens and baby koala bears.

If the ark and flood story is a metaphor, it's a piss-poor example of how to exercise authority, unless you want to be ruled by Kim Jong Il. Killing everyone like an angry child stomping on an anthill is not the only way for a so-called all-powerful being to solve problems.

And the problems never even got solved, after all that death and destruction! Bloated dead bodies of drowned families rotting all over, stinking and spreading disease, and for what? Evil just snapped right back onto the planet like a giant pair of Speedos.

I dont get why you cant see your downfall. This is modern day. We dont believe in gods. They are cryptic and absurd.

Well we have been talking about people he killed in th Old Testament. And living in modern day has nothing to do with hating what is bad and loving what is good.

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Why, the good ol' US of A, of course, which is why I referenced "states" in my post. Figured you'd be sharp enough to catch that. As the nation most stricken with xtianity (not to mention the land in which you reside), I would hope that you would consider our laws to be superior. On the other hand, if you're looking for countries that apply the death penalty to the greatest number of offenses there are several places under Sharia law that might do the trick. Xtians are not generally accepted there, however, so I'd advise you to keep your head down.

Not as good as the creator's. I don't think any human has the right to take the life of another without divine approval and he's not going to be taking any lives until the war of Armageddon, and humans aren't even going to be executing that judgment for him. So no human has the right to take the life of another. And you do realize the creators of the consitution you seem to value so much was created by believers? Does that mean they are not all bad?

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1) My reading of the Bible, is that God told a small crowd of Jews to obey him, on pain of public execution, and they would have "blessings in the field" if they did. They tried to obey God for 600 years, but ended up in constant captivity. Then a person-god "came", called Jesus, who told Jews that there was now a new set of ultra-strict laws, that they had to follow, or Jews would individually burn in hell. (Hell being a new invention, as well as individual responsibility.) And, BTW, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

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My reading of the Bible, is that God told a small crowd of Jews to obey him, on pain of public execution, and they would have "blessings in the field" if they did.

No this is not correct. Nothing was forced on them. Jehovah offered them a covenant, a legally binding agreement. There was two parts of this agreement. There were also terrible penalties for breaking that covenant. This was the covenant. Also, he NOT ONCE said he would burn them in hell.

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"...Now therefore, if ye will OBEY MY VOICE indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me a Kingdom of priests, and an holy nation

. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, ALL THAT JEHOVAH HATH SPOKEN WE WILL DO." (Ex.19:5-8)

So you see what they were ultimately promised was a kingdom in exchange for their obediance. And not just any type of kingdom, but a "kingdom of priests". This was the beginning of the fulfillment of the Gen 3:15 prophecy. And if they were to be priests then who would that be priests to? "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because thou hast obeyed my voice.".

As time went on it was promised God would produce a seed that would come to serve in that priestly kingdom as king. He was also to serve as it's high priest. And this is what the Jews were expecting of messiah when Jesus was on earth. They were expecting a holy king that would deliver them from their suffering and fulfill these promises of a kingdom.

The law was put in place to act as a restraint against the wickedness of the "first world" so Jehovah could bring about his purpose of "blessing all nations". But the jews took the laws that were designed to protect them and eventually began using them to abuse one another, taking the laws to such extremes that they defeated the entire purpose of the law in the first place. They even accused Jesus of being a law breaker for healing on the Sabbath.

So when their king was anointed by Jehovah at his baptism, he quickly began pronouncing judgement on the hipocracy of his "under priests". He laid their sins bare in front of everyone. In modern times, a similar thing in happening now. The blatant hypocracy of false religion is being made known to the entire world. What is secret cannot be hidden anymore. Christendom itself has been full of hypocracy and bloodshed. So has the world's other false religions.

We all know what the religious leaders did to Jesus, their king. The religious leaders (rulers) also would not see that the messiah was to be killed and resurrected to the right hand of God. He would serve as king grom heaven. Basically, the jews were to be the founders of christianity and also they would serve as kings and priests, eventually to the entire earth. They also were to be resurrected to heavenly life to be part of that ruling kingdom that would "bless all nations". This is why Jesus preached, "repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near."

But to get to the point the jews, as a whole, rejected their king. Therefore their king rejected them. This is why Jesus said, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Mat 21:43)

Jesus, the Son of God, and not Jehovah, hand picked the first twelve people to would be part of his ruling kingdom, they were the apostles. While on earth Jesus continually went to the people of Israel offering them opportunity to be part of this ruling kingdom. This was the fulfillment of Jehovah's covenant with Israel. Many jews did respond and will serve with Christ in his kingdom. But by and large the nation rejected their king. Jesus lamented, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" (Mt 23:37,38)

Eventually the opportunity to serve and kings and priests in this kingdom was offered to the gentiles because of the unfaithfulness of Israel. Jesus' parting instructions were, "All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world." (Mt 28:18-20) Baptized ones become part of that kingdom.

Now not all Christians will come to be part of the "Israel of God" that will live in the heavenly "New Jerusalem". These will collectively be the ones that serve what was to be Israel's role. From their heavenly position they will bring blessing to all nations. Currently this world wide preaching will continue until Jehovah is satisfied with the extent of it. Then Armageddon will proceed. This will be a war between Jehovah's own anointed king, Jesus, and the "kings of the entire inhabitted earth".

Once these enemy kings are defeated and removed then Christ, and those in heaven with him, will take over complete rulership of the earth for 1000 years. Everything that causes barriers to mankind's success, including man made government and man made false religion, will be removed. After the resurrection of the dead, those living will enjoy global peace and security under a righteous government. By the end of it's rule, all of mankind will be lifted to perfection. This 1000 year rule of Christ's kingdom will be the final test upon mankind. Under perfect conditions and as perfect humans they will face one more trial that will bring Judgement Day to it's conclusion.

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Christianity promises that if you give away all your wealth, and live in a shared household, you will receive a hundredfold in this life. It's a premise of Christianity, yet Christians still don't do it.

No, this is a false doctrine not found in the Bible. The Bible says, "this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh" (Mk 10:7). "All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty." (Proverbs 14:23). And wealth is only important because man makes it important. There will be no hoarding of wealth under God's kingdom. There will be no need to hoard it. A better principle will be at work, "freely ye received, freely give." (Mt 10:

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Everything has to fall back to capitalism, because capitalism keeps personal productivity higher, by rule of the buck. It's some irony that the human idea of cooperation creates a culture that is so diverse that it can't be managed except by brutal economic laws.

Capitalism causes economic slavery. If this is what you like then have your fill. I am holding out for something better. Under God's kingdom people will do what they enjoy. Nothing will prevent anyone from becoming a scientist, not even lack of wealth. Teachers will teach because they like to teach and they want to teach. Where do you get the idea man was supposed to remain gatherers for all eternity? Why would he give us such a powerful brain and why would he give us so much to learn and explore if he wanted us to remain gatherers? I think there is enough to learn that it will keep mankind busy for eternity.

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In Jewish history there has never been any proof that following God's law results in any kind of perfect society, nor is there any theological reason for a society to become perfect, since Christians have apparently been going to heaven, in the meantime. Again, this is not stated in either Judaism or Christianity anywhere, so could not be a real part of the religion.

First of all, the Jews did not follow God's law and neither has any other nation. So all you can really say is that not following them has not led to success. Secondly, Jews and Christians, along with all the rest of dead people, both good and bad, are in graves (hell), awaiting a resurrection from the dead. And actually there are millions of Christians today that are expecting to live in an earthly paradise as opposed to going to heaven or hell.

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You've said that Yahweh created perfect humans in a paradise, where they were under his protection.

So how DID the serpent get in there to trick them?What protection WAS Yahweh offering them?How COULD a "perfect human" do something wrong?

First of all you need to distinguish between human perfection and the incorruptibleness of Jehovah. Humans were perfect in that they were perfectly capable of fulfilling their God given tasks. "Multiply, take dominion over the earth beginning in Eden". It's when they reached beyond that God given task they became imperfectly suited. Humans are not perfectly suited to determine what is right and what is wrong. Even in modern day, we still cannot agree on what's right and wrong. Man was never created to do that and he will never be able to do it.

The serpent was their because the same rebellion was taking place in heaven. Earth became the focus of that rebellion. Adam was perfectly capable to rejecting the serpent but he did not, nor did most of his offspring. That's really a good picture of the state of things. Outright rebellion is what it is.

He was protecting them from anything that would physically harm them. He did not protect them from their own rebellion. Just like he is not protecting you from yours. So don't try to take the moral high ground over Adam and Eve.

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As one individual? Not much, you simply have a delusion. The fact that millions hold that delusion and exert pressure on science, education, legislature, military decision, healthcare, taxation, commerce, the penal system, and so forth....it affects me daily.

So you are holding all Christians responsible for what some have done because they believe in God? Do you also hold all athests responsible for Marxism and it's practice of state atheism? You don't even know what I think about any of those things you've listed. That's called discrimination. Discrimination does not give you the moral high ground you know.

Quote from: 12 Monkeys

asked you why Yahweh did not rid the world of evil when he killed all but 7 in the flood. If he kills all but 7 and leaves evil in the world then he is a senseless murderer. If he kills all but 7 but removes evil from the world (Satan and his minions) at least he has accomplished something to make the world a better place. Since he did not rid the world of its evil,he is a murderer.

I never offered up an explanation on why God thought he should kill men women and CHILDREN,just that he murdered them without the goal he had in mind,ridding the world of evil.......just pointless murder in an angry rage without the end purpose of NO MORE EVIL

Because it was not time for him to rid of world of all evil. It was time for him to begin setting up his kingdom. And there is more mankind must learn, some of it the hard way. Experience is often the best teacher, but he will not allow any permanent harm.

You guys just don't get it do you? What stops mankind from ultimately succeeding? It's not lack of effort. It's not lack of ability. It's lack of knowledge. What knowledge do they need that they don't possess? They don't know how to eliminate corruption. They don't know what's right and what's wrong and have little means to insist on what's right. This is at the heart of mankind's failure to succeed. Until you can elminate human corruption man can never succeed. In fact, the evidence of pre-flood times show that corruption will eventually lead us to destruction. "A house divided against itself cannot stand" (Mt 12:25)

How are you going to elimante corruption? Tell me how? How are you going to elimate things like....

16. Dishonest scales (Deuteronomy 25:13-16)

17. Workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5)

18. The wicked (Psalm 11:5)

19. Those who love violence (Psalm 11:5)

20. The froward [perverse] (Proverbs 3:32)

22. A lying tongue (Proverbs 6:17)

23. Hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:17)

24. A heart that devises wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18)

25. Feet that are swift in running to mischief (Proverbs 6:18)

26. A false witness who speaks lies (Proverbs 6:19)

27. Anyone who sows discord among brethren

33. Those who justify the wicked (Proverbs 17:15)

34. Those who condemn the just (Proverbs 17:15)

39. Evil plans against neighbors (Zechariah 8:17)

40. False oaths (Zechariah 8:17)

These are the things that stop mankind from ultimate success. That's why Jehovah hates them.

The law actually identifies what corruption is. Even knowing that noone's been able to elimanate it.

If I were to set up a maze in my backyard, filled with harmful obstacles, dangerous plots, misleading hints and clues as to a safe finish...and at the very end a guillotine lopped there head off...Standing back and watching all the while waiting for their demise...letting them find there own doom...would you belive that I loved my children and cared about their wellbeing..?

Isn't being in heaven the most perfect thing imaginable? Who would rebel against perfection? Where would the impulse to rebellion come from, if god did not create it?

I am really curious about this, and have been since reading Paradise Lost in college.

It is easy to assume that heavenly life is the supreme life but I'm not sure that's true for everyone. Some of the angels took on human flesh to have sex. While I think angels are perfectly suited for their heavenly homes, I think there may be a certain apeal to earthly live, even above and beyond sex. Myself, I think I prefer to live on earth. Man was made for the earth. I think his greatest enjoyment will come from living on it.

Why would an angel rebel? Mostly anything I say here will be speculation since I've never been an angel nor talked to one. While I view angels as greater than humans, I don't elevate them to divine incorruptibility. The Bible says it was pride that took root in the heart of the angel. Perhaps, like man, he thought he knew of a better way than Jehovah's. I assume he wanted to rule the earth instead of God.

It's hard for me to understand the motivations of something like an angel. I just know that biblically there is a difference in perfection and being incorruptible. Only Jehovah, Jesus, and those resurrected to rule with him will be incorruptible. These have true immortality, incorruptiblility, indestructibility, and noone else, at least as far as the Bible tells us. I think likely, the angel was desirous of true immortality. Maybe the angel thought that it had been such a faithful angel that it deserved immortatlity. Maybe this is what sparked it's pride. Maybe he thought he deserved to rule the earth.

I really don't know. Mostly all I can do is speculate, but I know pride was the cause.

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

If I were to set up a maze in my backyard, filled with harmful obstacles, dangerous plots, misleading hints and clues as to a safe finish...and at the very end a guillotine lopped there head off...Standing back and watching all the while waiting for their demise...letting them find there own doom...would you belive that I loved my children and cared about their wellbeing..?

This is an inaccurate analogy. The "maze" is a straight and narrow path, cleared of obstacles. There is even a light on the path.

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

When the time came, Isreal rejected it's king. Jehovah therefore gave this kingdom to the early Christian Congregation. Since that time, Christians have been gathering subjects for that kingdom. Today the search for subjects is earth wide. Once all the subjects have been gathered then the next step will begin. Everything is right on time and working perfectly according to plan.

Christians may be telling themselves that a shiny new kingdom is just around the corner, but I don't think it'll ever happen. The dead will not be resurrected (and Jesus, if ever he existed, will also remain dead). There will be no thousand-year reign, and no New Jerusalem unless such a city is constructed by humans. And eventually, Christianity itself will fade away to become just another mythological remnant of our past.

And eventually, Christianity itself will fade away to become just another mythological remnant of our past.

Will it be like old folks who refuse to use technology or come up to date, despising and road blocking anyone who tries to bring efficiency to the project. Wouldn't it be awesome if the clock just up and ran up on the "idiocracy" of the whole thing. We sit back in the cut, like watching a polar bear in the zoo pacing back and forth. To act with furious engagement would be the demise of our peaceful objection. We just have to hope that those veiled in deceit.. not of the devil because it doesn't exist.. will soon untie the bow and find peace and happiness in not being eternally judged and fearing eternity in molten lava. It's not even a knot holding it on. A simple shoestring tie that a child can navigate. YOU CAN BE HAPPY WITHOUT THE VEIL OF RELIGION!!!!!

I am proof. Dont like me?... others will be happy to provide proof of happiness.

And eventually, Christianity itself will fade away to become just another mythological remnant of our past.

Will it be like old folks who refuse to use technology or come up to date, despising and road blocking anyone who tries to bring efficiency to the project. Wouldn't it be awesome if the clock just up and ran up on the "idiocracy" of the whole thing. We sit back in the cut, like watching a polar bear in the zoo pacing back and forth. To act with furious engagement would be the demise of our peaceful objection. We just have to hope that those veiled in deceit.. not of the devil because it doesn't exist.. will soon untie the bow and find peace and happiness in not being eternally judged and fearing eternity in molten lava. It's not even a knot holding it on. A simple shoestring tie that a child can navigate. YOU CAN BE HAPPY WITHOUT THE VEIL OF RELIGION!!!!!

I am proof. Dont like me?... others will be happy to provide proof of happiness.

Really? You don't seem or sound very happy to me. You actually seem pretty angry and bitter.

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Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

JST if he fails to rid the world of evil,but kills because of the influence that evil has in the world HE IS A COLD BLOODED MURDERER,plain and simple.

Why kill people influenced by the evil he created,but not rid the world of that evil in the process?

AND can you direct me to your magic timeline God is using to rid the world of evil.....if you can't then your opinion on WHY he did not rid the world of evil when he murdered EVERYBODY is null and void and is just plain speculation on your part.

All the verses you quoted can never be gone,mainly because God is not real and people will always have desire and greed. There are smarter people than me who will probably match you verse for verse. What is your opinion on why he would murder but not rid the world of evil influences you quoted? seems pointless if he is "not ready" to rid the world of evil why murder?

« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 10:39:31 PM by 12 Monkeys »

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Really? You don't seem or sound very happy to me. You actually seem pretty angry and bitter.

Nah, Carstensenscott sounds more amused and bemused... You know, the feeling you get when you see someone search their computer keyboard for the "Any Key," as in "Press Any Key to Continue."

I, Myself confess to being somewhat baffled by the persistence of religious belief in our technology-driven age. I still can't get why so many people can't see through the myth of Hell, which I figured out at age 7: "Somebody probably just made it up to scare people into behaving."

Really? You don't seem or sound very happy to me. You actually seem pretty angry and bitter.

Nah, Carstensenscott sounds more amused and bemused... You know, the feeling you get when you see someone search their computer keyboard for the "Any Key," as in "Press Any Key to Continue."

I, Myself confess to being somewhat baffled by the persistence of religious belief in our technology-driven age. I still can't get why so many people can't see through the myth of Hell, which I figured out at age 7: "Somebody probably just made it up to scare people into behaving."

My ancestors had several creatures to keep children in check......never seen but always feared

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

My reading of the Bible, is that God told a small crowd of Jews to obey him, on pain of public execution, and they would have "blessings in the field" if they did.

No this is not correct. Nothing was forced on them. Jehovah offered them a covenant, a legally binding agreement. There was two parts of this agreement. There were also terrible penalties for breaking that covenant. This was the covenant. Also, he NOT ONCE said he would burn them in hell.

Typically, legally binding agreements do not apply to offspring, and fictitious people in 1280BC are not legal signatories. Judaism allows for people to be freed from various agreements every 7 years. The covenant was hereditary, and forced on 8 day old male children. (Females are like horses) Perhaps if the original signatories were historically real, and of sound mind, then God would have a legal case, if he could prove lineage.

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Also, he NOT ONCE said he would burn them in hell.

How do you know? Do you have the complete set of God recordings on CD?

Luke 16:31 says

[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This is Jesus, saying that Abraham would tell people that Moses and some prophets already spoke of hell. Perhaps you should update your God CD collection to include the deleted books? I find it spectacularly unlikely that modern preachers would continually talk of Satan and hell, if it was not a major part of the historical religion, so it must be in there, somewhere, like Jesus and everybody says. Maybe you should look harder.

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Christianity promises that if you give away all your wealth, and live in a shared household, you will receive a hundredfold in this life. It's a premise of Christianity, yet Christians still don't do it.

No, this is a false doctrine not found in the Bible.

You must have a different way of finding things, because I found it rather easily. On the end of Acts 4, where they start a commune, Mark 10:28-30, Mark 10:21, Matt 6:19, Matt 5:42, Matt 10:9, Luke 18:25, .... It is easy to find this as an ideal, and easy to find people who believe that both Christianity and Buddhism says this.

Apparently, you believe it, too, because you then start with your communist manifesto:

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Capitalism causes economic slavery. If this is what you like then have your fill. I am holding out for something better.

I wonder how you established this factoid, without reading Marx.

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Under God's kingdom people will do what they enjoy.

I'm assuming that "God's Kingdom" is the ideal economy on physical Earth, that could be, if we followed God's law? In this case, people will either want to do all the hard horrible jobs, or God will do them for us. I, too, look forward to a day when crops grow themselves, at high yield, untroubled by insects, rats and fungus. The problem is that when you simplify the manufacturing sector, to jobs that people want to do, in the slack way they want to do them, you end up with a civilization in collapse. You get a backward economy, with a large percentage of the population working in the agricultural sector, and all the good jobs disappearing. Research and information goes down the tube, and you get stuck in the 1600's, busy chopping down trees for fuel.

That is, unless you can grow food off solar panels, and have your whole economy designed by artificial intelligence. This sounds a bit like God's law, but we still have a few things to work out, along the way. It's not that we don't choose to live under God's law, but that we can't, owing to God making survival a life and death thing. If I could live on water, and sit around on my bum, I could live by God's law, easy. That is, until overpopulation caused no space, and I had to kill people to even walk anywhere.

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First of all, the Jews did not follow God's law and neither has any other nation. So all you can really say is that not following them has not led to success.

Well, you should stick to saying that, instead of quoting Marx.

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And actually there are millions of Christians today that are expecting to live in an earthly paradise as opposed to going to heaven or hell.

I hope the are all getting good jobs in bioengineering, and artificial intelligence, then.

You've said that Yahweh created perfect humans in a paradise, where they were under his protection.

So how DID the serpent get in there to trick them?What protection WAS Yahweh offering them?How COULD a "perfect human" do something wrong?

First of all you need to distinguish between human perfection and the incorruptibleness of Jehovah. Humans were perfect in that they were perfectly capable of fulfilling their God given tasks. "Multiply, take dominion over the earth beginning in Eden". It's when they reached beyond that God given task they became imperfectly suited. Humans are not perfectly suited to determine what is right and what is wrong. Even in modern day, we still cannot agree on what's right and wrong. Man was never created to do that and he will never be able to do it.

The serpent was their because the same rebellion was taking place in heaven. Earth became the focus of that rebellion. Adam was perfectly capable to rejecting the serpent but he did not, nor did most of his offspring. That's really a good picture of the state of things. Outright rebellion is what it is.

He was protecting them from anything that would physically harm them. He did not protect them from their own rebellion. Just like he is not protecting you from yours. So don't try to take the moral high ground over Adam and Eve.

I wasn't aware I was taking the moral high ground over anyone. What I was trying to narrow down was what you meant by "protection".

Question. If the serpent had NOT been allowed into Eden by Yahweh, would A&E have eaten the fruit?

If yes, then they were created in a state where rebellion was integral to their characters and would have happened regardless, despite being coccooned in the most perfect place imaginable and with NO influence from any being other than Yahweh. Yahweh created them in that particular state, so - again - Yahweh is just as much at fault for whatever they did. Remember, Yahweh set up EVERY variable in the equation: their environment, their character, their influences.....everything. If someone goes bad when you have control over EVERY factor involved, then the blame lies squarely on your shoulders.

If no, then Yahweh is directly at fault for allowing the serpent access to them, just as I would be at fault for lettin a known child molester have access to my children. I would be offering them no "protection" worthy of the name, and I would be just as much at fault for anything they did. If the only reason that they fell was "the influence of the serpent", then we must blame the only person who was capable of keeping the serpent from the garden. Yahweh. He either directly allowed, or by omission allowed, the serpent to enter the garden.

I expect the rebuttal will be "but they COULD have said no to the serpent". Aye, perhaps they could. But is that really the point? Yahweh had this one, glorious opportunity to keep from his creation the ONE thing that might cause them to fail. Were Adam and Eve not happy and secure in the garden? They were created as perfect, in the perfect spot, so without the serpent we would all, even now, be happy in the garden. So why DID Yahweh not protect them from the ONE thing that would spoil paradise?

Isn't being in heaven the most perfect thing imaginable? Who would rebel against perfection? Where would the impulse to rebellion come from, if god did not create it?

While I think angels are perfectly suited for their heavenly homes, I think there may be a certain apeal to earthly live, even above and beyond sex.

Why would an angel rebel? Mostly anything I say here will be speculation since I've never been an angel nor talked to one. While I view angels as greater than humans, I don't elevate them to divine incorruptibility. The Bible says it was pride that took root in the heart of the angel. Perhaps, like man, he thought he knew of a better way than Jehovah's. I assume he wanted to rule the earth instead of God.

It's hard for me to understand the motivations of something like an angel. I just know that biblically there is a difference in perfection and being incorruptible. Only Jehovah, Jesus, and those resurrected to rule with him will be incorruptible. These have true immortality, incorruptiblility, indestructibility, and noone else, at least as far as the Bible tells us. I think likely, the angel was desirous of true immortality. Maybe the angel thought that it had been such a faithful angel that it deserved immortatlity. Maybe this is what sparked it's pride. Maybe he thought he deserved to rule the earth.

I really don't know. Mostly all I can do is speculate, but I know pride was the cause.

I won't argue with that. But you miss nogodsforme's point. Who created Pride, as a feeling? Who created the angels with the capacity for, and the inclination towards, Pride?

Same question, really, as the one I'm asking about A&E. If Yahweh is the one single creator of everything, then he is responsible for EVERYTHING that happens. HE sets up the starting conditions, HE sets up the capacities of the beings he creates, HE sets the environment. In what way therefore is he absolved of all responsibility for the way in which things pan out?

JST if he fails to rid the world of evil,but kills because of the influence that evil has in the world HE IS A COLD BLOODED MURDERER,plain and simple.

Why kill people influenced by the evil he created,but not rid the world of that evil in the process?

AND can you direct me to your magic timeline God is using to rid the world of evil.....if you can't then your opinion on WHY he did not rid the world of evil when he murdered EVERYBODY is null and void and is just plain speculation on your part.

All the verses you quoted can never be gone,mainly because God is not real and people will always have desire and greed. There are smarter people than me who will probably match you verse for verse. What is your opinion on why he would murder but not rid the world of evil influences you quoted? seems pointless if he is "not ready" to rid the world of evil why murder?

He is currently ridding the world of evil.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:90

Everyone else can think upon this, "Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!" (Mat 23:32)

Yes there is a time line and an apppointed time.

"For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it hasteth toward the end, and shall not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay." (Hab 2:3)

When is that apppointed time?

"But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only." (Mt 24:36)

Quote from: Add Homonym

Typically, legally binding agreements do not apply to offspring, and fictitious people in 1280BC are not legal signatories. Judaism allows for people to be freed from various agreements every 7 years. The covenant was hereditary, and forced on 8 day old male children. (Females are like horses) Perhaps if the original signatories were historically real, and of sound mind, then God would have a legal case, if he could prove lineage.

The covenant, "blessing", was transferred from father to son on several occasions in the OT as a reconfirmation, that is the covenant for a kingdom. It passed all the way down to Jesus. Jesus was the fulfillment of God's part of the covenant. The covenant was they would live under a theocratic rulership. This was not forced upon them. Jehovah let them reject it just as he let them reject his chosen king. He just gave it to someone else that did want to live under it.

Quote from: Add Homonym

How do you know? Do you have the complete set of God recordings on CD?

Yes, it's called the Bible. It has everything we need to know (2 Tim 3:16,17)

Quote from: Add Homonym

Luke 16:31 says

[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First tell me how someone can rise from the dead if they are not dead. And if they are dead, how can they be alive? And then tell me the definition of the Hebrew word for hell. Then I will show you what the Bible says about the condition of the dead. Then you will begin to understand why that is an illustration.

Quote from: Add Homonym

You must have a different way of finding things, because I found it rather easily. On the end of Acts 4, where they start a commune, Mark 10:28-30, Mark 10:21, Matt 6:19, Matt 5:42, Matt 10:9, Luke 18:25, .... It is easy to find this as an ideal, and easy to find people who believe that both Christianity and Buddhism says this.

Those are guiding principles not straight jacket rules like the Jews treated the Jewish law. You cannot take it out of the context of the rest of the Bible. What is the teaching about leaving one's parents? What are the teachings for providing for you family? What does the Bible teach leads to poverty? What does the Bible teach about taking care of orphans and widows? What does the Bible teach about greed? Who does the Bible teach that money belongs to? Which is more important, money or taking care of orphans and widows? Calling it communist does little to cover up the immorality and blood guilt of using money as an excuse to deny people the basic necessities of life. If I have money and let my brother starve then I have disowned my faith and am worse off than an unbeliever. (1 Tim 5:

Quote from: Add Homonym

I'm assuming that "God's Kingdom" is the ideal economy on physical Earth, that could be, if we followed God's law? In this case, people will either want to do all the hard horrible jobs, or God will do them for us. I, too, look forward to a day when crops grow themselves, at high yield, untroubled by insects, rats and fungus. The problem is that when you simplify the manufacturing sector, to jobs that people want to do, in the slack way they want to do them, you end up with a civilization in collapse.

Did Adam and Eve have to fight for their own food? If was after they left the garden that Jehovah told them, "thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return to the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and to dust shall you return." (Gen 3:19)

And no neither will we need to worry about vermin, even the animals will be at peace with man.

This is what the Bible says about his chosen king and the condition of the earth.

"And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.

3And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;

4but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins.

6And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.

9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.

But yes there will be work. Jehovah worked and his servants work. Humans were created to derive enjoyment from work. Even the apostle wrote, "If any will not work, neither let him eat. (2 Thess 3:10). That means you don't get to sit around on your butt and be provided for. But slaving for money and working are two different things. And people who won't work simply won't be there. People will do things because it's the right thing to do. Those that refuse to do that simply won't be there.

Anfauglir

Read the book of Job and replace Job with Adam and Eve and you will know why Satan was allowed to make the serpent speak. The ultimate question of their perfection, and mankind's integrity as a whole, is the question of the purity of their love for Jehovah. The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was an opportunity for them to demonstrate the purity of their love for Jehovah. In order to be perfect they must have perfect love. There HAD to be a way to demonstrate that their love was not from selfish motives.

Satan charged that Job only loved God because of selfish reasons. Job proved Satan a liar under much worse conditions, and so did Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve did not. Their love for Jehovah was not pure, hence adding evidence to the charge that God's creation was defective. However, Jesus Christ ultimately proved that their failure was not through a creative defect. They were capable of that same pure love and so are each of us. Satan is, therefore, a liar and he is defeated.

Logged

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

^^^^Huh? Wait a minute! Where did A & E get "selfish motives"? Why would an all-knowing god need anyone to prove their love? (This god sounds like a 17 year old boy with his girlfriend in the back seat of a car. "You would if you really loved me baby.") And how did everyday joe Job have this pure love for Jehovah if A & E, who were given paradise, did not?

Besides all that, why Job "loved" someone who let him suffer so badly for no reason is beyond me. It seems a really strange definition of "love". Kinda like the way a battered wife "loves" her sociopathic husband even after he sets her on fire.[1]

^^^^Huh? Wait a minute! Where did A & E get "selfish motives"? Why would an all-knowing god need anyone to prove their love? (This god sounds like a 17 year old boy with his girlfriend in the back seat of a car. "You would if you really loved me baby.") And how did everyday joe Job have this pure love for Jehovah if A & E, who were given paradise, did not?

Besides all that, why Job "loved" someone who let him suffer so badly for no reason is beyond me. It seems a really strange definition of "love". Kinda like the way a battered wife "loves" her sociopathic husband even after he sets her on fire.[1]

^^^^Huh? Wait a minute! Where did A & E get "selfish motives"? Why would an all-knowing god need anyone to prove their love? (This god sounds like a 17 year old boy with his girlfriend in the back seat of a car. "You would if you really loved me baby.") And how did everyday joe Job have this pure love for Jehovah if A & E, who were given paradise, did not?

Besides all that, why Job "loved" someone who let him suffer so badly for no reason is beyond me. It seems a really strange definition of "love". Kinda like the way a battered wife "loves" her sociopathic husband even after he sets her on fire.[1]

Proving it and demonstrating it are two different things. Show me love apart from action and I will show you my love by my actions. Which one is real love? Love MUST be shown or it is dead love.

Killing because of evil,but not riding the world of evil is insanity......the definition of insanity after all is trying the same thing over and over and expecting to get a different result. Love must be shown by God to the starving of the world or it is DEAD love

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

The reason you think a god loves you is because you will never be in the dame dire situation as a starving child. God to love you does not actually have to do anything,does he? Can you show one thing God needs to do for you,just one thing. God can easily handle the Christian with the full belly who may have lost his trailer to a tornado or his Hi-def TV to a basement flooding. To do any real work he(God) is inept and incompetent.

Can you give me an example of God really physically helping an American Christian,say a dead victim of hurricane Katrina,any victim of that hurricane can suffice.

People rallying to help others in an emergency situation is hardly God,just people helping out people.

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

The reason you think a god loves you is because you will never be in the dame dire situation as a starving child. God to love you does not actually have to do anything,does he? Can you show one thing God needs to do for you,just one thing.

You have no idea what I've been through in my life or what losses I have incurred. For instance, I once had to be rushed into surgery because my colon ruptured at home. I would not sign the consent for blood transfusion because Christians are to abstain from blood. So don't tell me what my faith is based on. Obviously you've had a very easy life. I think that must be why you don't believe in God.

Quote from: 12 Monkeys

Prove it,all you have is a book written by ignorant goat herders that has no relative information to give anybody in the 21st century and beyond. Your religion is dying,get over it.

I don't have to prove it to you for it to, in fact, be a demonstration of his love.

Logged

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

When you ruptured your colon why would you rely on a doctor? As I have stated people helped you,what did any God have to do with the life saving surgery you may have had? With that much faith in Yahweh,why did you just not pray for it to be healed.....that TRULY would be God. But of course the surgeon well trained in the hospital,your faith out the window when your life is in danger.

Easy life as an Aboriginal in Canada or the USA is laughable at best. Government legislated poverty,poor living conditions,undrinkable water Religious residential schools. You think because you have had trouble,all which seem relatively minor compared to life on a reservation you need a god ....also laughable

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

When you ruptured your colon why would you rely on a doctor? As I have stated people helped you,what did any God have to do with the life saving surgery you may have had? With that much faith in Yahweh,why did you just not pray for it to be healed.....that TRULY would be God. But of course the surgeon well trained in the hospital,your faith out the window when your life is in danger.

How about because Jehovah created the awesome human brain and I have one, and so do doctors?

Quote from: 12 Monkeys

Easy life as an Aboriginal in Canada or the USA is laughable at best. Government legislated poverty,poor living conditions,undrinkable water Religious residential schools. You think because you have had trouble,all which seem relatively minor compared to life on a reservation you need a god ....also laughable

Then go find a Christian that does suffer those things and tell them God does not exist.

Logged

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

You went to a doctor,let Yahweh heal you would have been the right thing to do.

There are plenty of "Christian" Indians living in these conditions on reserves,residential schools you know. Praying to a god has done nothing to change or ease their "suffering".

I take it you are a JW and only a certain number of righteous ones will get to heaven? How loving is God if he sends the remainder of the 7 billion to hell?

He never said he would stop Christians from suffering. He promised he would be with them and comfort them in the suffering until he gathers the full number of those in the kingdom.

The other 7 billion will live on an Edenic earth. This will be the fulfillment of his original purpose in creating the earth and humans.

"And the righteous ones inherit the Earth and dwell upon it for eternity." (Psalm 37:29)

"For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else." (Isaian 45:18)

Logged

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.