Has anyone read any of her shit. I am finishing up "Atlas Shrugged" and it has broaden my perspective on those hated capitalistic fucks. I now have a little empathy which is against my narcissistic makeup. I want some serious responses fellas. How do you feel about the virtue of greed and selfishness? How does this play out in the hip hop culture. Come on smarty pants

Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:31 pm

Petrouchka Rasputin

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 852

Ayn Rand is misunderstood - to an extent. She did believe that one's main moral obligation is to oneself, but she also said that can't be achieved at the expense of others. So if that's the case, what she preached wasn't pure greed. It was socially-responsible greed. But all I've read are random smatterings, so there's almost certainly more to it than that. And I could be completely wrong. I just wanted to throw my minimal knowledge out there.

Not to diss hip-hop, but I think Ayn Rand's ideas are more complicated than anything you could find in any song, and I don't see many rappers acting on the same principles. It's an interesting idea, though.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:00 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

As I said in the other thread Ayn Rand is simple. She has a simple political theory, which does not hold up at all with what we know of history, and she was a very bad philosopher (which you can see clearly by her misunderstanding of other philsophers).

Calling Objectivism "socially-responsible" greed seems silly to me. How much greeder can you get? The only step further is greed without laws. If laws make it socially responsible well yeah...

To be honest, I debate a lot with libertarians and most libertarians even distance themselves from rand.

2 cents.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:27 pm

BiPolar Barer

Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 175
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

Yeah...I think you are correct as far as her adherence to social responsiblilty. She agrees with one of our founding fathers, Adam Smith. She asserts that greed or what he called "the invisbile hand" moves the world. "Atlas Shrugged" is her book about what happens when the movers of the world (capilistic producers) stop. She shows how the government stops them through legislature power and what happens to our country when this happens. I bring this topic up on this particular form b/c i so often hear Sage and other rappers I love attacking capitalism. Without capitalism or greedy capitalist we probably wouldn't have the interent or a site like this to use to so freely express our opinions. Look I'm not for a totally free market with no government regulation, but its really important to limit government regulation so we don't become like china or russia. Ayn rand by the way was russian and she was pro capitalism because she lived in a communist russia for some time and knows how ugly too much government regulation can be. As J Live said, "the grass isn't greener on the other genicide."

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:31 pm

Petrouchka Rasputin

Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 852

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't she say the duty to oneself only applies when fulfilling it does not involve trampling the rights of other people? That's what I meant by social responsibility. Correct me if I'm wrong... as I said, I don't know a lot about Rand.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:31 pm

BiPolar Barer

Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 175
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

I can't believe you are even trying to say her political theories are too abstract to having any tangibliltiy in the real world. She is anti-philosphy because she thinks it is non productive to sit around and ponder. I disagree of course and don't want to give the impression that I am a 100% suppoter of what she advocates, but I will say "Atlas Shrugged" portrays the power struggle between capitalistic who believe in a totally free economy and a government who wants to drag down the economy with social programs that are less efficient.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:36 pm

BiPolar Barer

Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 175
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

she portrays this struggle better than many other who attempt to. I know you could counter argue my points by saying I am not some millionaire tycoon, but my dad is, and I am not trying to exploit being a rich kid, so don't call me the obvious names, but rather I am trying to have a fruitful conversation about capitalism and its ties to the hip hop world.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:39 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

"BiPolar Barer" a couple things

--- Adam Smith was NOT one of our founding fathers. I have no idea what you are talking about. He was a british writer, had nothing to do with america (except for influening some of our founding fathers)'

--- Adam Smith does NOT say gree dis the "invisible hand", "the market" is the invisible hand. Of course the market in his day bears little resemblance to the market of today.

"I can't believe you are even trying to say her political theories are too abstract to having any tangibliltiy in the real world. "

--- I did not say this. I said anarcho-capitalism/objectivism does not hold up as a thoery with the historical knowledge we have. I never mentioned anything about "abstractness" or "tangibility"

""Atlas Shrugged" portrays the power struggle between capitalistic who believe in a totally free economy and a government who wants to drag down the economy with social programs that are less efficient."

--yes... it does. Its a fiction book.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:41 pm

BiPolar Barer

Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 175
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

I believe our modern economist follow his theories to this day, and as far as our founding fathers they read him which makes him a part of our founding fathers. You think our founding fathers didn't read him? There ideas weren't even their own. The constitution protects our free economy. If I am wrong I will gladly accept it. I am not trying to be pretentious here.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:46 pm

August Spies

Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.

hmm well did they read him? perhaps, as I admitted. However, his piece on economics, or "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations", was written in 1776, after we had become independent. I was unaware than influencing our founding fathers made one a founding father, but if your going by that definition... maybe.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:50 pm

BiPolar Barer

Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 175
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

I respect and appreciate your incite. I really am not claiming to know all and welcome being corrected it would suck to go on with false knowledge. I thought the invisible hand was people's greed which moved the world and created the market. It works something like this...If I want a good really bad and will sacrifice money or any other good to obtain that good I will make it known publically so someone who has the the object of my desire can trade me that good for something I value equally as that good or less. This creates the market place as we know it. Thus greed or the attempt to satisfy our desires creates the market place. This "greed" is what Adam Smith called the "invisible hand".

Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:50 pm

califunky

Joined: 06 Jul 2002
Posts: 225
Location: Japan

why it doesnt work

ok, so the primary problem with Rand's writings are the same problems found in cummunism [Edit: i meant to spell that communism, but i think i like it better that way], just at the opposite extreme, her thesis is that if everyone acts according to everyone's own best interested, then we will all be better off. now, while this does not make the obvious mistake that communism did in negating the tendancies of human nature, it does present massive coordination problems. anyway, the point is that it is drastically unrealistic, and especially unrealistic to believe that we should let business and corporations be unfettered, because given unlimited freedoms corporations will pursue policies which are dangerous to people and most especially to the environment for the sake of a buck.

the same problem with her ideas is the same problem with libertarianism...they beleive that if companies are bad then they will be punished by consumers in the form of boycott or whatever, but this is not what happens in the real world because that takes too much time, it is not responsive enough and it allows much abuse before the corrective action begins to take effect.

what does all of this have to do with hip-hop? jack fucking squat, that's what...if you are talking about the personal ideas espoused by some of the "underground" (however the fuck you want to define that) heads in hip-hop then maybe it has some relevance, but otherwise it is just an excuse for greed...so i if you think you can get ja-rule and the Dirty South to use Ayn Rand to justify their bling bling, be my fucking guest.

c

Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:09 pm

BiPolar Barer

Joined: 17 Oct 2002
Posts: 175
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

Everyone's greedy and anyone who talks about someone being evil for being greedy are probably the biggest greedy bastards of all. Say I fucked your girlfriends and she benefitted from the experience. Say it furthered her spiritual development and shit. She became a better person after I laid it on her. Would you hate her for it? What is the nature of that hate. I think it may be greed. You want her for yourself and you aren't really interested in spiritual development or else you wouldnt care if I fucked her. I know I will get hated on for this comment, but I really want to see the responses and shit. Please don't cop out with some dogmatic shit about being a do gooder. Hip Hop is a type of expression, and anything that affects hip hop is relative to it.

Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:02 pm

califunky

Joined: 06 Jul 2002
Posts: 225
Location: Japan

jigga say what?

ok, what the hell does that have to do with the last thing i posted? yes everyone is greedy, true, no doubt, that is how the human machine works, the question is if greed at the cost of empathy is a suitable way to runa community of humans, and i am gonna go with no on that one...

as for the question about my girl (sage- i don't got a girl. underground kid-that's because your weak. sage-no, it s because i'm gay! i'm queer!) oh sorry, no, the reason i woulod be pissed off in your hypothetical situation would be greed to some extent, but mostly it would be hurt due to violated trust...she decided to opt out of the whole "we only fuck each other deal" because she was greedy, if that had been the case from the start, then we would just fuck other people if we want to, which is how my and my girl operate in reality...

and as for "hiphop is a form of expression and everything that relates to it..." what kind of circular logic kind of statement is that? hiphop is music, fun music, if you want hiphop to be about ayn rand and objectivism then write a song, until then it has nothing to fucking do with the subject[/quote]

Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:38 pm

sequence

Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 2182
Location: www.anteuppdx.com

answer

Ayn Rand's place is always in the garbage can...one of the worst jokes ever played on philosophy.

Adam

Thu Oct 17, 2002 11:05 pm

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