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Sunday, September 12, 2010

Telangana 61: Survival of the Fittest

One Andhra Commenter writes:

Tell me if you know of a genuinely hard-working guy who is unemployed? Opportunities are for everyone. The fittest always survives. Others make excuses...

Many people who have absolutely no clue what Evolution is or what Darwin’s Theory is often swear by ‘Survival of the Fittest’ argument. First, Darwin and evolution scientists prefer terms like natural selection, sexual selection, etc, to explain the drivers for evolution instead of ‘survival of the fittest’. Second, Survival of the Fittest amongst humans stands as a discredited notion that spawned fascist movement of the early 20th century resulting in more than 50 million people dead. Right now only Aryan supremacists believe in this. The concept was used by White Europeans to legitimize their slavery of the ‘inferior’ races, spawning discriminations based on race, ethnicity and sex, and colonization of ‘uncivilized’ countries.

To swear by ‘survival of the fittest’ is no longer proud thing to be, the way swearing by Nazism is no longer proud thing to be. But India continues to be an exception. Here in India you will find a great fan following for Adolf Hitler, and the educated and the elite swearing by flawed and misconceived notions of ‘survival of the fittest’.

Humans fight ‘survival of the fittest’

Contrary to what most Indians believe, humans consistently fight natural selection, the natural order that drives evolution. Humans fight the order of nature and that’s what makes them humane. We don’t let our weak die, even if they happen to be beggars or homeless, or even our enemies. We take care of our weak; we hospitalize them, we use medicines, we use inoculation, we use vaccines, we use artificial organs, and we do surgery. Even the weakest of humans gets a chance to reproduce and thereby contribute to the gene pool. The weak doesn’t get eliminated as is done in natural selection. Instead, even the weak humans continue to add their gene content to future generations with equal vigor.

We don’t abandon our weak kids on the street, and say, ‘well, that’s survival of the fittest’. We don’t let our weak fend for themselves saying, ‘well, that’s survival of the fittest’.

Modern nations, the modern concept of civilization, the modern tools of democracy, the modern concepts of humans as citizens with inalienable rights and not as subjects of a tyrant, the modern notions of equitable distribution of wealth and equal access to opportunity, the modern idea of inclusive growth to bring in a harmonious society, the modern values of equality before law, justice to all, liberty for everyone, go against the archaic and discredited notions of ‘survival of the fittest’.

Open competition where all resources and opportunities are up for grabs is a myth which has relevance only in limited context in the civilized world. Modern nations are formed going against that open competition when we say we are going to keep Indian government jobs only for Indians, and when we are closing the competition to foreigners. When we demand British leave India so that Indians can rule for themselves, we are no longer practicing ‘survival of the fittest’. When we say a state gives preference to government jobs to its people, when a nation allows only its citizens to represent their sports team, when we say a company should be registered in a country if it has to operate in that country, when we say that IT companies like Infosys gets tax breaks so that they can compete with foreign companies, when we give SEZ with tax breaks and power subsidies, we are going providing protections, safeguards, and reservations. Nations are built on the concept of giving preferential treatment to its people over others. States are built on the concept of giving preferential treatment to its people over others. Otherwise, Tamils would take up all government positions in Orissa completely depriving the local people jobs in their own state.

When a bank gives loans preferring the local companies over companies of other regions, when we give reservations to our lower castes, when we promote women in our companies, when we promote diversity in our organizations, when we give reservations to handicapped, when we reserve seats for disabled, when we give up our seats to the old people on a bus, we are going providing safeguards and protections, treating people differently, based on their identity, sex or handicap.

Modern nations do not follow ‘survival of the fittest’

Modern nations are built on the premise that all people irrespective of their race, color, sex, region, language, religion, get access to basic amenities and basic opportunities. There is no race for getting these basic amenities. Getting basic education is not ‘award of excellence’ that a person wins in a race of survival of the fittest. Instead, a state guarantees a basic education to all its citizens, irrespective of how strong or weak they are in the gene pool.

We have had wrong education in this country where the elite and privileged think they are elite and privileged only because they won a race. It makes them feel good about themselves, and helps answer their insecurities, give excuse for their apathy, legitimizes their greed, and continues their hegemony. But they do not understand that the entire history of humankind has not favored those who were strong on an individual level, but only those who were strong at a group level, those who could subdue other groups through their show of strength.

A smart, strong and highly capable black person would have lost out of to a foolish, weak and incompetent white man in 1700s, and the only reason being that he was Black, belonging to a group that didn’t wield enough power, while the other person was White, a group that wielded all the power. Natural Selection should have favored this Black over this White at an individual level. And yet that does not happen. That’s because humans resist natural selection in their own way.

Andhras who keep insisting that Telanganas lost out the race because it was all about survival of the fittest should tell us why they got separated from Madras State citing they would lose out to better educated, more politically empowered Tamils. Why could they not demonstrate their survival capabilities staying in Madras State and competing with Tamils? What made them demand a new state?

Recently, Prof Kodandaram in his speech at IISc said that empowerment of certain group is dependent on their ability to negotiate with modern political and democratic institutions. That means a group which has a better ability to negotiate with these modern institutions wins over another group. Therefore, the group divisions, such as states, should take this into account while forming states. Regional identities and special recognitions can be maintained within a state as was done with the experimental state called Andhra Pradesh.

Gentlemen’s Agreement, Article 371, Mulki Rules, were all promised and agreed upon to protect Telanganas against Andhras because it was clear even in 1956 prior to formation of Andhra Pradesh that Andhras were well equipped to negotiate with the modern political and democratic institutions because of their long experience with educational and political institutions under British Rule.

It was clear from the beginning that it was not going to be an open race inside Andhra Pradesh. It was clear from these promulgations and agreements that certain protections were awarded to people of Telangana, not because they were incompetent, lazy or drunkards, not because they had low IQ or less intelligent, but because they belonged to a group that had handicap to successfully negotiate with the modern political and democratic institutions of Independent India.

Telanganas lost out in the race not because of their incapacity or incapability as individuals but because all Andhras reneged on those promises, because Andhras flouted all the agreements. When elite companies like Infosys asked for tax breaks to compete with global companies, how can an ordinary Telangana person be deprived of those safeguards to be able to compete with superiorly positioned Andhra?

When Telangana lost out to Andhra in this race, it is not about ‘survival of fittest’, but it was a gross violation of everything that modern civilization is made of. It is inhuman. It is uncivilized. It is barbaric, uncharacteristic of modern world, the principles that made humans humane. Citing ‘survival of the fittest’ to rationalize Andhra’s hegemony is equivalent to Spanish rationalizing conquest of South America with brute force, that of Whites wiping out Natives in North America and Australia, and that of British colonizing Indians.

It’s high time Indians abandon using the concept of ‘survival of the fittest’ to rationalize their hegemony and make way for a modern and civil society based in modern values and principles where access to basic education, employment and resources is not a case of ‘award of excellence’ but an equal ‘access to opportunity’.

72 comments:

how can an ordinary Telangana person be deprived of those safeguards to be able to compete with superiorly positioned Andhra?" On what basis Telangana person should get the safeguards.Every part of India was under more or less the same autocratic rule during British rule.Can India claim safeguards on the trade front since it is a developing economy when compared to western countries? Should India or Nepal claim a reservation in Nobel Prizes since they doesn't have facilities for research.?Can Srilanka claim reservations in the United Nations positions since it was ravaged by civil war for a long time? Does Goa get a preferential treatment in the Civil Services? Should Puducherry get reservation in Indian soccer team because it was merged with India much later than rest of India?Nizam signed agreement with India for merging Hyderabad ,was the agreement honored? To bring history to mask the present realities is nothing short of escapism.If you feel dishonored in India fight for your own land,but when you are in India be one of us,you don't deserve any special treatment.

On what basis Telangana person should get the safeguards. Every part of India was under more or less the same autocratic rule during British rule.

Hyderabad State was not under British Rule. Those under British Rule, especially the old provinces like Madras State, went through land reforms, had irrigation projects, modern education, and most important of all, political institutions. Hyderabad State did not go through similar reforms, did not have modern educations, and did not have the same political institutions.

Can India claim safeguards on the trade front since it is a developing economy when compared to western countries?

India already does. Just take a look at automobile sector. Take a look at IT-ITES which has had a tax-break for nearly twenty years now.

Should India or Nepal claim a reservation in Nobel Prizes since they doesn't have facilities for research?

Please read my previous posts on the difference between ‘awards for excellence’ and ‘access to opportunity’. Please do not confuse the two. The whole intention of writing these posts is that people do not confuse the two. One of the related posts is in linked at ‘Related Posts’ at the bottom of the current post.

Can Srilanka claim reservations in the United Nations positions since it was ravaged by civil war for a long time? Does Goa get a preferential treatment in the Civil Services? Should Puducherry get reservation in Indian soccer team because it was merged with India much later than rest of India?

Please know the difference. States treat their own people differently from people outside the state when it comes to jobs in the state government. There are reservations for lower castes, people with handicap, those who excel in sports, etc. There are reservations for women in states like Andhra Pradesh.

To bring history to mask the present realities is nothing short of escapism. If you feel dishonored in India fight for your own land,

We are fighting for our own land, Telangana, within the confines of India. It is no different from how Andhras fought for their own land within the confines of India.

but when you are in India be one of us,you don't deserve any special treatment.

Well, we do. Otherwise there wouldn’t any states. There would be only one state. There wouldn’t be reservations. There wouldn’t be SEZs, there wouldn’t be tax breaks for IT companies. There wouldn’t sops for farmers.

"Hyderabad State was not under British Rule. Those under British Rule, especially the old provinces like Madras State, went through land reforms, had irrigation projects, modern education, and most important of all, political institutions. Hyderabad State did not go through similar reforms, did not have modern educations, and did not have the same political institutions. "That is the problem invited by your forefathers,they should have fought against the Nizam's tyranny and should have talked him into irrigation projects or land reforms nobody has stopped them.More over the Nizam was given a very special status which no other native princely state had. The merger of Nizam's Hyderabad has brought them to India and the purpose was to bring it out of the autocratic rule and that is it.Why should the rest of the nation invest into something which occurred back when India was under foreign rule. There were many native states like Junagrah,Travancore,Saurasthra, Patiala which were under princely state rule,is it fair to ask for special treatment just because they were not under British. British Rule didn't create enclave of prosperity nor the princely states create an island of backwardness.Even if they did independence was a great equalizer.

That is the problem invited by your forefathers, they should have fought against the Nizam's tyranny and should have talked him into irrigation projects or land reforms nobody has stopped them.

It’s really sad that’s what you think. I knew that we were up against really callous and insensitive people, but I was not sure how apathetic they were.

Did people of Andhra or Madras State fight against their monarch to join British, or did British took over these monarchies and started ruling them? Did people of Oudh emancipate themselves from their kings and nawabs to join British rule, or British took over Oudh?

More over the Nizam was given a very special status which no other native princely state had.

Did that mean the people had a special status in the eyes of Nizam?

Why should the rest of the nation invest into something which occurred back when India was under foreign rule.

Your callous nature is really surprising. We never asked the nation to invest something special into Telangana. We just want to be an independent state, like Gujarat or Karnataka or Haryana.

There were many native states like Junagrah,Travancore,Saurasthra, Patiala which were under princely state rule,is it fair to ask for special treatment just because they were not under British.

Travancore became an independent state called Kerala. So, why not Telangana?

Even if they did independence was a great equalizer.

Not really. If that was the case there wouldn’t have been an Gentlemen’s Agreement or Article 371.

"Did people of Andhra or Madras State fight against their monarch to join British, or did British took over these monarchies and started ruling them? Did people of Oudh emancipate themselves from their kings and nawabs to join British rule, or British took over Oudh? " Yes exactly that my point. I didn't say the Hyderabadis should have fought for joining British. There was no movement against the Nizam in Telangana,there were some in Marathwada and in Hyderabad-Karnataka region.There was no agitation against the Nizam for say education,representation in legislature or for irrigation projects.My contention is that they were happy with Nizam's rule as evidenced by lack of resistance against Nizam and by the statements by Telangana leaders that Nizam's rule was a golden age and that they lost their greatness after merger with Andhra."Travancore became an independent state called Kerala. So, why not Telangana?"It was not just Travancore that became Kerala.Kerala was formed by merger of Tranvancore,Cochin and Malabar region of Madras state. The three regions were and are different and they is no clamour for safeguards."We just want to be an independent state, "There is nothing like an independent state either in Govt records or in the Constitution. All the states or union territories are part of Independent India,that is it.

Mysore state was under princely state regime. Hyderabad-Karnataka states were merged with parts of erstwhile Madras,princely state of Sandur and Mysore princely state and Coorg which was a Part C state to form Mysore then Karnataka .Is there is disparity .Yes you bet different parts were under different regimes.Where was the equality of opportunities?

"Your callous nature is really surprising. We never asked the nation to invest something special into Telangana. We just want to be an independent state, like Gujarat or Karnataka or Haryana. " Its naive of you not to understand the statements above. Telangana creation is a very capital intensive burden on the Govt exchequer involving thousands of crores. Just to satiate somebody's ego India has to spend money on which there is no guarantee that it will improve the conditions in the regions.

Even lambadi people were migrants who settled in telengana, they have a distinct culture and language but unlike andhra assoles they didnt regard themselves as any superior to the natives and they integrated in to the fabric of telengana society and now they are in forefront in the fight for telengana.

Telangana creation is a very capital intensive burden on the Govt exchequer involving thousands of crores. Just to satiate somebody's ego India has to spend money on which there is no guarantee that it will improve the conditions in the regions.

Indians believe this survival of fittest crap because in this country "survival of the fittest" doesn't mean those with talent or hardwork. It simply means you have the right connections, belong to the right group or class and know the right person. That's what survival here is.

""I am wondering which class are you studying? 3rd Class or 4th Class?"Sujai.Can you please tell me what do you mean by that?"Sujai Can you bother to write about what you said?I'm curiously awaiting your reply.

I think rags explanation is fair enough to all those questioning just for the heck of it. It is waste of our energies to explain those who are quit adamant to understand and to reason with. Nayeem please try to understand what is being said and interpret it in an objective way. Do not bring in your own premonitions. Hope you understand what it is to think like a 3rd grader with just being impulsive with out any content or substance.

" Do not bring in your own premonitions. Hope you understand what it is to think like a 3rd grader with just being impulsive with out any content or substance."How can my question be implusive.When Telangana guys say that a 5 year kid knows the importance of fighting for the state ,how can I be construed as a 3rd grader.A guy who can explain things to peopel like they are 3rd graders is the real articulator. I can explain the import of my questions and explain how and why but first I want Sujai to explain why he thinks that I'm a 3rd grader.I'm still really curious!

Naymeen its a characteristic of an argument of a separatist. They have adopted the strategy of using sarcasm and personal abuse/attack when their argument leads to a contradiction or when they are cornered.

u andhra people are so outraged by the so called "violence" by our protestors burning buses ,smashing glass panes but u people didnt even blink an eye when 300 students comitted suicide and yet we didnt even kill a single andhra settler anywhere, this reflect ur andhra moral virtues, may be u "settlers" attach more value to inanimate objects but in telengana we give value for life. If we go by ur Darwinian theory ur "settler" species will be wiped out and become extinct within one day.

No matter what, we cannot take the violent path in our current agitation. I understand that the youth is frustrated because the results are not coming. Also, Andhras are not helping the situation. They are unnecessarily provoking Telangana people.

We should not get provoked. Violence is the easy path. Nonviolence is the tough path. Many a times the agitating youth like to take the easy path but thankfully the grass root level leaders in Telangana are still strongly promoting nonviolent methods. And I am glad that this agitation has not gone the violent route. We may not have Gandhi, but we are still banking on Gandhian principles. Let’s keep it that way. It’s a healthy way.

We don’t want to become violent because of various reasons. Violent movement will go out of control. And once it goes out of control, there is no way political institutions will work. That is not good for Telangana in the long run. Once people get used to getting things done through violence, they will continue to resort to violence to get things done even after creation of new Telangana. Violence is not like a tap that you can turn it off anytime. There are many lessons from our histories. Take a look at Pakistan. They created violent groups to fight India but now they are causing havoc in their own country.

Revolutions which have taken violent path have had hard time conforming to democratic institutions. There are very few examples where armed revolutions have successfully converted to democratic countries.

Moreover, nonviolence builds character. Resorting to violence is weakness. To remain nonviolent shows strength of character. It’s good to create such people in Telangana. It will have long term benefit to the region. It will create good leaders in this region. If Andhras call us weak for our nonviolent methods, let them call us weak. We know that in our hearts we are strong, so why to prove it to anyone? As long as we are on the path of creating a harmonious Telangana in future, we should not be disturbed by what Andhras call us.

Violent methods will aggravate our relationship with Andhras. Keep in mind that they are not our permanent enemies. Currently, we fight with them on moral grounds, but once new state of Telangana is formed, we will continue to live with them as neighbors. Also, there are lakhs of Andhras living in Telangana. What kind of state will we create if Andhras in Telangana live in fear? It’s better not to have Telangana than create a state where certain people are targeted or persecuted. Let’s not go overboard with our anger towards Andhras.

Another important point that should not be missed out is that some Andhras would like to see us become violent. That will serve their purpose than ours if we become violent. For that we have to understand our history.

1969 agitation was violent compared the current agitations. That gave state a pretext to completely suppress it with ruthless force. Some Andhra leaders opine that if the current agitation becomes violent, the state will be forced to call in the armed forces to quell the agitation. Also, like in 1970s, if people get disenchanted after such ruthless suppression, there is a chance that people of Telangana will once again take refuge in Naxal movement, which is a good thing for Andhra leadership, because once again they can suppress us for another forty years with armed presence.

Let’s not get into their taunts or provocations. Keep cool. If we don’t get Telangana now, it’s OK, but getting it through violence is far dangerous than getting it later.

In your first comment, you said:Can India claim safeguards on the trade front since it is a developing economy when compared to western countries?

Every newspaper reader knows that most developing countries have safeguards to protect domestic companies against foreign companies. There are special provisions for certain industries while other industries are left open. If I have to start with basics, I don’t know how much I have to write to get to you to a level where we can talk on the same level.

For example, India protects its automobile industry and that’s why we see such a huge growth in the domestic industries. This is a news item from two days ago:http://www.thehindu.com/business/Industry/article627514.ece

To understand how India protects its automobile industry from open competition, you can read about it here.http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/146_175abr_e.pdfhttp://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19990212/ibu12038p.html

This is just one example of how India does not follow ‘open’ competition as you think. How about IT industry? The so called meritorious lot who keep coming onto the stage to preach merit, which according to them, is anti-reservations.

The top companies of Indian IT Industry, Infosys, TCS, HCL, Satyam, Wipro et al became so big ONLY because of Indian safeguards which exempted them from taxes for nearly 20 years. During that time the MNCs were paying nearly 40% in tax. Without that protection we would not have had homegrown IT industry in this country. Currently the IT-ITES is a $70B industry contributing to nearly 6% of India’s GDP.

Most people know about IT companies in India, and therefore my assumption that the person who claims that India ‘opens’ its economy should at least know some of the basic stuff.

Then, you make a statement like: If you feel dishonored in India fight for your own land,but when you are in India be one of us,you don't deserve any special treatment.

That’s when I started to get a feeling that you are either in 3rd or 4th grade. Because I see such arguments from neighbor kids who keep arguing about a point without knowing anything about it and make some motherhood statements, like ‘my mom is the best cook on the planet’. There is no debate there. It is a childish assertion which does not merit a response.

Why do I think your remarks were extremely childish? Well, to start with. Creating states on linguistic identity itself is a special treatment. To create Mizoram, Nagaland, Tripura was special treatment for the tribes of Northeast. To create Andhra State was a special treatment to Andhras. Telanganas had Gentlemen’s Agreement, Article 371, which were special treatment.

To provide reservations in colleges and universities is special treatment towards lower castes. To reserve seats for women in the bus is a special treatment. To provide tax breaks is a special treatment. To give free education in villages is special treatment. We are treated specially according to our identity, our class, our social status, our economic status, and so on.

Anyone living in this country who has read a newspaper even once will know that India is full of special treatment. Then why such silly motherhood statements, unless, if you are in 3rd class or 4th class?

Then you make another statement which confirmed by hunch: Telangana creation is a very capital intensive burden on the Govt exchequer involving thousands of crores. Just to satiate somebody's ego India has to spend money on which there is no guarantee that it will improve the conditions in the regions.

When was the last time in Indian history a state was not formed because of ‘cost’ to the exchequer? When was the last time Central Government did not proceed with creation of a state or hesitated to create a state because of ‘cost’ factor?

Did we stop ourselves from creating new states like Andhra Pradesh, Kerala, Karnataka, Gujarat, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Goa, Uttarakhand, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Mizoram, Tripura, Nagaland, Manipur, Meghalaya, for the reasons of ‘cost’ to the country?

Do you know how much it cost India when sanctions were imposed after India conducted nuclear tests? Did India stop it’s tests because of the cost of sanctions?

In May 2010, India anticipated 35,000 crores from 3G+BWA auctioning, but instead it got 1,06,000 crores, an extra 70,000 crores, roughly translating to 2% of the GDP. This is extra money for the country. Do you know that budget for entire military of India (which is considered high for a developing country) is 2.6% of the GDP?

Do you know that most of the funds given to state for various development programs are actually returned to the center unspent every year? Just take a look at two examples. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rich-states-lag-in-use-of-MP-funds/articleshow/6276880.cmshttp://www.business-standard.com/india/news/unspent-fundsstates-put-question-marknrega/392495/There are more such examples. You can find them on your own.

So much money was being unspent by the states that P Chidambaram had to warn the states to allocate their monies within the first six months, otherwise he will reduce their quota the next year.

The problem with India is not dearth of money. The problem with India is its inability and incapacity to spend the money judiciously.

I rest my case. Next time you make strong observations like what you did above ask yourself if your observations are better than a 3rd class or 4th grader’s. That will help me save all this time and effort trying to write such a lengthy response.

The only evolutionary thing that makes sense (and should have happened already) was to have a sub-regional party like TRS a long time ago (of course with a more sensible leader than KCR)

We did have a sub-regional party. It was called Telangana Praja Samiti (TPS). When it won most of the Lok Sabha seats in 1971, Indira Gandhi bullied it into joining Congress. Back then, asking for a new state was equated to sedition. And there were enough veiled threats to Telangana politicians to back down. Even now, many Andhras are trying to pull the same trick. Recently, in a meeting with SriKrishna Committee, they tried to bring the same argument – that Telangana agitation is anti-national. It worked before, why not try the same now?

Creating a sub-regional party works only when it has an ability to negotiate with the democratic institutions successfully. If that sub-regional party represents a minority it can have a negotiating capability only when the majority gets divided, like how regional parties from states negotiate with ruling party at the center giving them enough numbers to form the government. However, if the majority regions unite when it comes to matter of the minority then this sub-regional party will have no negotiation power. In India, opposition parties unite with ruling party when it comes to matters of Pakistan and in such a case a regional party lending support will have no negotiation power. Similarly if all Seemandhras unite when it comes to matters of Telangana, as previously observed many a times in the history, then no sub-regional party will have negotiating capability.

If one could solve all such problems with sub-regional parties, then we wouldn’t need states in the first place.

"When was the last time in Indian history a state was not formed because of ‘cost’ to the exchequer? When was the last time Central Government did not proceed with creation of a state or hesitated to create a state because of ‘cost’ factor? " See, I wanted to see if there was an intelligent answer from you which I expected but I'm sorry you've miserably faltered.Your post smacks of a puerile lack of foresight and you superciliously condescending attitude is uncalled for .You could not think of why creation of a state is expensive and instead brand me as a 3rd grade brat.Hey I was a 3rd grader once and given a chance would like to remain there. The creation of state of Telangana would be the heaviest known expenditure on the exchequer. The division of assets,mostly importantly building of a new capital for the non-Telangana state.Can you imagine the expenditure just to create infrastructure.The Govt would be responsible for moving expenses for all the Govt employees. Builidng a new capital,that is going to be a humongous task.Given that a capital will take atleast 20,000 acres ala Chandigarh, it would take atleast 1 crore per acre in a region where it is almost impossible to find Govt land,toss in to the mix the necessities like building quarters,sewer,drinking water,airport(s),cantonment,railway stations,universities,malls,flyovers,TV stations everything mind you with an eye of sustainability and future,since the new international guidelines involve strict adherence to environmental norms.Imagine the timeframe.Mind you Andhras and/or Seema would have their own self-respect now and would never stop short of creating a state of the art State and nothing less.They would like to be masters of their own fate and not to be branded as looters,thieves or settlers.

The new capital alone will take atleast 75,000 crores to 1 Lakh crore more if three states are created.Not to mention the relocation expenses for the transferred govt jobs,division of work forces,Water resources,forests and people. It would be a huge challenge to determine who is a Telanganite and who is an Andhraite.Of course on top of it would be compensation to Andra and Seema region and would like to be pampered by Govt and leaders. Plus there would be a clamour for govt investing seed money in form of setting up huge industries to augment the new state. Did I mention the loss of fertile land and livelihood for lakhs of people whose lands will be sequestered.Can you imagine the money that has to be spent by private organizations and individuals themselves. I'm really surprised at you writing about 60 articles and never mention about capital and human cost of creating the new states.No Telangana leader worth his salt talks about this.Where would Govt get all the monies,now tell me? Of course the straight proposal would be collection of a cess in Telangana to recover the income ,but I really doubt if Telangana would be able to supplement .Maybe your superior wisdom does have an answer as to how the unutilized money can be put to use in this context.Have you thought about this?

"When was the last time in Indian history a state was not formed because of ‘cost’ to the exchequer? When was the last time Central Government did not proceed with creation of a state or hesitated to create a state because of ‘cost’ factor? " See, I wanted to see if there was an intelligent answer from you which I expected but I'm sorry you've miserably faltered.Your post smacks of a puerile lack of foresight and you superciliously condescending attitude is uncalled for .You could not think of why creation of a state is expensive and instead brand me as a 3rd grade brat.Hey I was a 3rd grader once and given a chance would like to remain there. The creation of state of Telangana would be the heaviest known expenditure on the exchequer. The division of assets,mostly importantly building of a new capital for the non-Telangana state.Can you imagine the expenditure just to create infrastructure.The Govt would be responsible for moving expenses for all the Govt employees. Builidng a new capital,that is going to be a humongous task.Given that a capital will take atleast 20,000 acres ala Chandigarh, it would take atleast 1 crore per acre in a region where it is almost impossible to find Govt land,toss in to the mix the necessities like building quarters,sewer,drinking water,airport(s),cantonment,railway stations,universities,malls,flyovers,TV stations everything mind you with an eye of sustainability and future,since the new international guidelines involve strict adherence to environmental norms.Imagine the timeframe.Mind you Andhras and/or Seema would have their own self-respect now and would never stop short of creating a state of the art State and nothing less.They would like to be masters of their own fate and not to be branded as looters,thieves or settlers.

The new capital alone will take atleast 75,000 crores to 1 Lakh crore more if three states are created.Not to mention the relocation expenses for the transferred govt jobs,division of work forces,Water resources,forests and people. It would be a huge challenge to determine who is a Telanganite and who is an Andhraite.Of course on top of it would be compensation to Andra and Seema region and would like to be pampered by Govt and leaders. Plus there would be a clamour for govt investing seed money in form of setting up huge industries to augment the new state. Did I mention the loss of fertile land and livelihood for lakhs of people whose lands will be sequestered.Can you imagine the money that has to be spent by private organizations and individuals themselves.

"When was the last time in Indian history a state was not formed because of ‘cost’ to the exchequer? When was the last time Central Government did not proceed with creation of a state or hesitated to create a state because of ‘cost’ factor? " See, I wanted to see if there was an intelligent answer from you which I expected but I'm sorry you've miserably faltered.Your post smacks of a puerile lack of foresight and you superciliously condescending attitude is uncalled for .You could not think of why creation of a state is expensive and instead brand me as a 3rd grade brat.Hey I was a 3rd grader once and given a chance would like to remain there. The creation of state of Telangana would be the heaviest known expenditure on the exchequer. The division of assets,mostly importantly building of a new capital for the non-Telangana state.Can you imagine the expenditure just to create infrastructure.The Govt would be responsible for moving expenses for all the Govt employees. Builidng a new capital,that is going to be a humongous task.Given that a capital will take atleast 20,000 acres ala Chandigarh, it would take atleast 1 crore per acre in a region where it is almost impossible to find Govt land,toss in to the mix the necessities like building quarters,sewer,drinking water,airport(s),cantonment,railway stations,universities,malls,flyovers,TV stations everything mind you with an eye of sustainability and future,since the new international guidelines involve strict adherence to environmental norms.Imagine the timeframe.

ContMind you Andhras and/or Seema would have their own self-respect now and would never stop short of creating a state of the art State and nothing less.They would like to be masters of their own fate and not to be branded as looters,thieves or settlers.

The new capital alone will take atleast 75,000 crores to 1 Lakh crore more if three states are created.Not to mention the relocation expenses for the transferred govt jobs,division of work forces,Water resources,forests and people. It would be a huge challenge to determine who is a Telanganite and who is an Andhraite.Of course on top of it would be compensation to Andra and Seema region and would like to be pampered by Govt and leaders. Plus there would be a clamour for govt investing seed money in form of setting up huge industries to augment the new state. Did I mention the loss of fertile land and livelihood for lakhs of people whose lands will be sequestered.Can you imagine the money that has to be spent by private organizations and individuals themselves. I'm really surprised at you writing about 60 articles and never mention about capital and human cost of creating the new states.No Telangana leader worth his salt talks about this.Where would Govt get all the monies,now tell me? Of course the straight proposal would be collection of a cess in Telangana to recover the income ,but I really doubt if Telangana would be able to supplement .Maybe your superior wisdom does have an answer as to how the unutilized money can be put to use in this context.Have you thought about this?

Maybe your superior wisdom does have an answer as to how the unutilized money can be put to use in this context.Have you thought about this?

Dont worry about it too much. Didnt Andhra survived without proper capital after separated from Madras? You do the same again.

And about the bullet points to make sure about creating new capital, I am sure you have a book about it, I dont think you separated from Madras without out thinking about it. If you lost that book, dont worry, we can ask BJP, they recently created few states, and they may guide you well.

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Not in my wildest dreams could i have believed that someone could even consider to argue against such a known and accepted concept(Survival of The fittest) but not only have you dared to take on such a thing, u have defended it so well and supported your agruments with examples people can relate to.

Its feels so good to read some of your thougts sujai. Very original and creative. I admire your argumentation skills.

You should be ashamed of saying that.You cannot dare think about that, leave alone executing that

Please dont pose as a saint, if you look back your history, you are as equal as devil , you single handedly trowed entire state in to presidential rule for a long time just to satisfy your ego by nullifying the supreme court order. You yourself didnt obey the supreme court order, but you expect us to obey the law?

"Now, you confirm my hunch."That is the path the so called Tvadis take if they can't answer the questions.Greenstar I don't care about Andhra much since I'm a Hyderabadi myself. All your allusions don't work since I don't care how the state of AP was formed.All I care is I stand for United Andhra Pradesh period.I don't want India to be a party for collective foolishness.

'Creating a new capital will increase the opportunities. Read about few states in USA(for example OHIO)."The capitals in the US are mostly underdeveloped.Take for example Montpelier,Albany ,Juneau or Augusta inspite of being capitals they are tiny cities.Albany is a doting city with population of 100 thousand presiding a city of 10 million.

"Dont worry about it too much. Didnt Andhra survived without proper capital after separated from Madras? You do the same again."What has happened in 1950s would not happen now.Please read what I said,nothing short of a state of the art capital is going to work .You cannot ask the Andhraites to just leave the present state to fend for themselves.They have more seats than the Telangana does thus more bargaining power.BJP could have created the states but none of them took away the existing capitals.

That is very good for us. In 1950s Andhra asked for separation with Madras as capital, but they didnt get the capital.

Now we ask for the de-merger so we get the HYD.

They have more seats than the Telangana does thus more bargaining power.They demonstrated this power many times before , and thats the reason now state is at the edge of dividing.

BJP could have created the states but none of them took away the existing capitals. So what I understand is, because we agreed to merge with andhra for mutual benefit, what we got so far is ....we lost our much of resources, and now we have to loose our one and only city. Dont you have an end for your looting?

The capitals in the US are mostly underdeveloped.

???????

You drag unnecessary arguments into your discussion and try to substantiate.

Looks like you are watching yourself in the mirror when you are writing above sentence. You are so correct about you.

I don't care how the state of AP was formed.All I care is I stand for United Andhra Pradesh period.

I too dont care what will happen to Andhra after the separation. All I care is I stand for Telangana State with HYD as capital, period.

Sujai thanks for ur reply,but i beg to defer, French revolution didn not occur due “satyagraha” or any passive protest or petitioning to the govt but it was accomplished with people protesting violently on streets , people burning down the symbols of authority and clashing with violence and heads (many innocent) had to fall through gullitone and i think this time the govt cant stamp down any agitation using brute force because in 1969 there were no tvs or internet they could do anything. I personally think that if the agitation that followed dec9 if not pacified by kodandaram or JAC's would have achieved Telengana within two weeks the wheels were set in motion and now it wud be more difficult to start the whole process(crippling the govt machinery) again.

In USA(which follows survival of fittest concept,in economy and jobs) when a person is “ discriminated” and denied employment for belonging to a certain race or region he can "SUE" that organization , not only in govt jobs but also private corporations are bound by law to ensure no discrimination takes place.But sadly in Telengana the discrimination is justified by the “andhra settlers” saying that ensuring jobs for telenganites is against the “spirit” of competition, when telenganites ask for their fair share of “42%” in jobs it because the discrimination became institutionalized in govt and even in private companies and it is in the “spirit” of competition to restore equal oppurtunities to the people of “ telengana”

"In USA(which follows survival of fittest concept,in economy and jobs) when a person is “ discriminated” and denied employment for belonging to a certain race or region he can "SUE" that organization , not only in govt jobs but also private corporations are bound by law to ensure no discrimination takes place."Very sorry you don't understand what discrimination is.Discrimination happens to thousands of Indians every day at work sphere,why do you think Indians who work so hard end up in sloppy work places where there is no scope for growth. How many Indians or African Americans are project managers. Leave jobs,when somebody comes across your resume,they put it aside,where is the question of you suing? Even in apartment search discrimination happens,when you call somebody for an apartment they discriminate right there. There are ads in the TV saying the discrimination based on language or race or national origin is a crime. Even the blacks discriminate against Indians. Hey White children don't play with your children in parks what do you say about that ? Even in schools the teachers pay more attention to children belonging to a particular race. Haven't you encountered that? In the subways there are people who hesitate to sit beside you .How many offended people have sued? Can you draw the same parallels with Telangana and Andhra?

"Natural Selection should have favored this Black over this White at an individual level. And yet that does not happen. That’s because humans resist natural selection in their own way." "...Modern nations do not follow ‘survival of the fittest’"

Natural selection is not something anyone consciously chooses to achieve nor can we see its effects in one lifetime. Natural selection manifests over a period of hundreds to millions of years. Humans with their superior intelligence (to fight diseases etc) might slowdown or alter the patterns of natural selection, but natural selection happens nevertheless. These concepts dont apply to describe our humaneness or the kind of government we choose or protectionism in trade etc. If anyone uses 'survival of the fittest' in a general sense, it should be construed as something like open competition but not to be taken in exact Darwinian sense.

"When Telangana lost out to Andhra in this race, it is not about ‘survival of fittest’ ..."How do you know Telangana lost out to Andhra and what is the race you are talking about? At least, all the statistics I see tell me that Telangana did exceedingly well in many areas and progressed better than Andhra and Seema. One can give any number of individual examples, but the big picture is what matters. I hope we all will get more clarity after SKC report.

French revolution didn not occur due “satyagraha” or any passive protest or petitioning to the govt but it was accomplished with people protesting violently on streets , people burning down the symbols of authority and clashing with violence and heads (many innocent) had to fall through gullitone

And you know what happened after the Revolution? That’s my point. There are very few successful transformations into a mature democracy after a violent revolution.

U are clearly showing ur "settler" mentality. U moan about being discriminated for " apartment search"at the same time stealing away the Jobs of local people in US (it has chronic unemployment) and at the same time u dont care for Discrimination among people of ur own state, u expect a "alien" culture 3000 miles away to treat u as their own, that shows ur sheer hypocrisy, u should be "greatful" that they let u into their country in the first place, before moaning about trivial problems try to read about discrimination of "early migrants" like Irish,Italians compared to wat they faced ur's is nothing.

US has unemployment....but there is also a shortage of skills in certain areas and that is where foreigners get employed.

The average US citizen does not want to work as a janitor or a truck loader or a kitchen cleaner or a farm worker or an apple picker or grape cutter.........so you see thousands of hispanics willing to do it by 'settling' in USA.....and the Americans are willing to employ them.

There is a severe shortage of software professionals in certain skills. There are no Amercians willing to learn those skills. Amercia has free school education. There are plenty of scholarships and discounts for citizens in the colleges and universities. Yet they are not available. So what does US industry do...close down? They employ Chinese to a large extent and Indians to a lesser extent. If there were capable Citizens the industries would not need to look out.If they don't employ Indians/Chinese, US companies would bite the dust in international markets. If a US company quotes $100 for a project in Australia and a UK compny quotes $ 60 because the UK company has Indians working there who will get the project? And should the US company close down?Therefore when USA allows Indians it is doing so for its own selfish interest. Indians don't have to be 'grateful' for that.

there are a number of telangan peole including the gr8 sujai who have acheievd their goals in life through hard worky dont the grp 1 aspirants take such people as role models instead of crying over andhraites???

Anonymous:there are a number of telangan peole including the gr8 sujai who have acheievd their goals in life through hard worky dont the grp 1 aspirants take such people as role models instead of crying over andhraites???

Just because Gandhi went to England to study law, we cannot say all Indians had opportunity to study in England, and that if they worked harder, instead of fighting British, they would have done well.

Please understand the difference between achievement of an individual and empowerment and development of a group.

SujaiYour argument is right. A group has a right to get protection so that it competes among itself and not with other more fortunate people.

Having said that in latter comments you deny that right to others. 1 Crore people of Greater Hyd don't want to be part of Telangana if it forms. The other 2 Crore people of Telanagana want the 1 Crore people to be part of their group when Telangana forms but don't want to be part of United AP. 3 crore people of Andhra + Rayalaseema want the 2 crore people telangana and the one crore people of Hyd to be part of their group. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just laying out the broad trends at group level.

Nayeem has a great argument about cost. You say ignore cost. Thats not a solution. Someone has to pay. There is nothing called free lunch. Additional cost is to relocate and compensate 30-50 lakh people what want to move out of hyd (especially when latest KCR argument is that they cannot be counted against telangana quota.)An easy way out (like in 47) is your 'ignore cost'. You saw how it ended.

Unfortunately our lives are intertwined.

I don't care about 42 % reservation argument by the way. In fact I think its poetic justice for Andhra BCs who demanded reservations earlier. How they can also feel the pain. out of those 42 % next reserve 21 % to women and 10% to muslims -- oh no don't put the shoe on other foot.....

on TV t- advocates forum member ramachandra rao categorically stated that 'even if coastal people came and settled here 100 years ago, their descendants will not be counted among the 42% "

so we know where things will go in t state. but what about the children of those who came to the Indian city of hyderabad from karnataka, TN, kerala, WB, etc etc. they are not eligible for education and employment in govt either in t state or in their 'ancestral' state.

especially when latest KCR argument is that they cannot be counted against telangana quota.

I dont know why seemandra people give more value to this looser's statement. He never got enough support from Telangana people. When he do not have enough support from people and if he makes any statement(foolish or good one), it doesnt represent Telangana people.

I guess seemandra do not dare to talk directly against Telangana people so they use this looser for there statements, this way seemandra are forcing Telangana people to go with him. That is what happened in recent elections, winning TRS with ultimate margin (which never happened before).

Green Star said... especially when latest KCR argument is that they cannot be counted against telangana quota.

I dont know why seemandra people give more value ...

Less than two months ago he was hero winning 11 assembly seats with thumping majority.How the situation has changed that he is loser today?

BTW, just an hour ago, KCR said anyone born in Telangana is Telanganite and eligible for the 42% quota. I heard it on 2-hour long debate on ABN channel.

Which statement of KCR you will subscribe to and which one not?Also which one other shoulds follow?

As per Sujai's favorite quote : "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crises maintain their neutrality."- Alighieri DanteI demand a stand from you. Otherwise Sujai will reserve the latest hotplate in hell for you.Sounds like Betala kadhalu climax dialogue, isn't it? :-)

I never said I am from Seemaandhra. How can you deduce that. I am Rayalaseema born son of Andhra Father and Telugu from Tamil Nadu married to someone from the heart of Telangana (Warangal) and having children born in Visdesh. I am All Andhra. If you dig deep all of us are like this. Go back three generations each way and see if one of your ancestors isn't from Andhra or Rayalaseema.

So according to KCR is my son Telanganite or not? He is born to telangana mother but not in telangana because we are outside country for work.

Why do we keep trying to reinvent the wheel? This has been discussed million times throught history and most civilised societies accept - If you are born in A you belong to A. If you are born to mom or dad from A you are A. If you are born to grandparents from A you can apply to become A. Others stand in line and wait for your turn.

I am not neutral and I support no one. I only say Hyd has a right to opt out of telangana just like telangana has a right to opt out of AP. I wouln't go down to street level though.If we decide to go through the process there is a heavy cost (real money) involved and we are need to be taxed to pay for it - before we seperate. If you don't have money borrow and repay lender with interest.

Which statement of KCR you will subscribe to and which one not?Also which one other shoulds follow

I dont know why your seemandhra brains made with mud, and why it takes lots of days for you to understand small things. How many times we have to declare in this forum that we are associated with KCR or TRS? I dont care what KCR telling you, we always said, who ever has legal domicile status in Telangana can claim as Telangan@. Period. So, I dont subscribe to KCR at all.

I am sorry if KCR tells you opposite to mine, you are allowed to kick his butt, and I will come with you to kick him, happy?

So according to KCR is my son Telanganite or not?

So, who is this KCR to decide? Did whole telangana people elected him as there representation?

So, who is this KCR to decide? Did whole telangana people elected him as there representation?

Good question. We kept on asking the same. Which political party has mandate for Telangana?Your favorite blogger Sujai says I will blame all Seemandhra and want admit them guilt. But when it comes to Telangana KCR is no one and you are not accountable for his remarks.When he calls seemandhra 'dongalu' he is good Telnganite. You use and support (false) data published by him.Once he utters something not palatable you say "who is KCR?".Great morals!These are true color of you separatists.

If Andhra settlers are accepted as telanganites then the initial argument unravels. That as a group telanganites need protection from Andhraites because of historical reasons. I am afraid andhra settlers will dominate Telangana.

As I have said before I am for nobody and against nobody and not neutral. I just don't want a half baked solution like India-Pak, Andhra- Tamilnadu happening once more.

When he calls seemandhra 'dongalu' he is good Telnganite. You use and support (false) data published by him.Once he utters something not palatable you say "who is KCR?".

when did we supported or discussed his published data? I think you just woke up from your sweet dreams.

If you want consider KCR decisions as all TElangana decisions, then well, you too have few people now asking for separate Andhra(gave there report to SKC too). So we consider this as whole Andhra opinion, that way we dont have any disputes, we divide happyly. THanks for accepting for saperation .

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