West, I want it to be a potential list of locations... but ones that have preferably been checked out beforehand by other kiters. My idea was to have kiters discuss exactly which spots were best for the conditions and weigh options, discuss on the forum, and buddy up when they actually hit the water. Variety is the spice of life. Exploring our great lake is exactly what I want to do! Information about each spot can be added (like your Racine info), but only if people send it to me. Blaise seems to be of the opinion that talking to kiters is the best idea... and I agree! But how do you suppose I talk for 10 minutes with kiters from all over the Midwest?

Also, West, your local information is exactly the kind of input that I need. If you can think of 2-3 quick sentences to express that information, I'd love to just paste it right into the "Notes" area.

Regardless, I think it would be better for kiters to post on the forum something like, "How about ____________ tomorrow?" and then learn about the spot from the collective wisdom of the forum, buddy up, and THEN kite safe. There's no way for a beginner to know all that detail about a spot, and its difficult for a map to provide all that information too. That's where our great community comes into play.

BETA SITE...A WORK IN PROGRESS KITEBOARD AYOR. PLEASE CHECK WITH LOCAL RIDERS BEFORE KITEBOARDING.

I checked out the site. It is the new tool that we all knew would eventually exist.

Some of the information is so far off that it will at least waste people's time and at most be dangerous.

Do you want to call me on a windless day and ask about northern MI? (I have no interest in learning the program)

Could there be a little landing page where people would have to "Agree" to a contract?The contract would just be all of the normal stuff - No riding in swim areas/no launch land near beach goers/surfers have right of way/If you suck and know it, watch out/etc.

Being concise is the name of the game here. Under notes, 4 sentences is what I'm going for. I think people should be discussing the spots on the forum and/or elsewhere. If I get conflicting notes, I do what I can to meet in the middle. PM or message in this thread is good.

Rorke after looking at the map I am in full agreement with your statement about issues.With that said we need to send kitekid some accurate info on the spots we know.

Way to many beginner spots listed, i.e. Bestie that place has the list checked off for what you don't want in a beginner spot. Lots of current check, deep water check, downwind hazards check, waves check, lots of people check and narrow beach check.

I dealt with one of the greenest guys I have seen in years here on Sunday. 03-04 C kite not pumped up properly, he could not carry the kite the right way. He came to Sheboygan as he heard it was great beginner spot. I told him to burn that kite, buy a good used kite and get lessons. Nice guy but just F-ing clueless.

Kitekid I will get you some accurate info on the spots I know on the Wisco side as I haven't yet like I said I would

Thanks Northerner. It's always a work in progress. I do have the disclaimer in the middle of the lake... but I've posted in other forums and they don't seem to attribute kiting noobs with the availability of site information, because people who want to kite are just going to kite. I watched a guy at a field that's not listed, trying to launch his kite directly downwind while it was anchored to a tree. Even after talking to him about it, he didn't seem to care and ended up getting dragged right into a soccer goal post then gave up and left. I realize that it's a bit more of a sensitive situation for our water locations. Thus, when I've posted in other forums and asked for assistance in crowdsourcing, my post includes:

"Also, new kiters, this is a list of locations with some info, but each spot has its own intricate set of complications. Please do not show up with a kite and get you or anyone else hurt or we will lose kiting privileges. Bring a local buddy who's knowledgeable and be safe, not stupid. "

I think this is enough for starters... but my main goal is to provide information for our community. Safety is important, but I don't want it to get in the way of providing necessary information.

BUT, exactly what you did in Sheboygan is something that makes me proud of our forum. Self-policing respectfully is the best way to go about this. Talking to the guy and keeping him excited while warning him of the necessity for safety is important. Taking the time to sit him down and explaining to him that these are toys that can kill us prevents him from being stupid and still keeps him interested in the sport.

As you can see by the posts that are coming in from experienced kiters....there is a concern over the main objective in your map, which is being concise; being accurate should be just as important I would hope....

As for having the time to talk to kiters all over the Midwest....I would expect that you would do whatever is necessary to make the map informative and useful...

One of the biggest hurdles we have is the incredible amount of new kiters that want to "learn" to kite in this area, and the number increases annually. Most will try for a while and then put it up, some will simply move away, some may persevere and develop into a Midwest kiter, but most will not....that is just the way it is.

Unfortunately there are many beginners who are just as Andrew has posted....beginners without a clue, with no lesson, gear from the web, trying a spot they have no knowledge of....and your map as per your plan, will only make matters worse not better....the "owness" is on you, not others to supply info; you should be responsible enough to do the proper research, take the time necessary, and do something that will actually help the community, not perpetuate the existing problem we have....which is beginning kiters trying to teach themselves on any beach they choose regardless of conditions!!

1. Any beach can blow any time of year however it iS the time of day that can matter there a lot of factors and only the most experienced are just beginning to know this.

2. A huge onshore wave day can provide 30 to 35 yards of flattish water lower level riders can safely enjoy! There are the dangers of it on shore but all the big waves have broken way out leaving long stretches of flat water to hone. Trick is to keep it in the off season when colder and no beach combers. I know many guys who have been kiting a long time that don't do tricks but love this setup and get lots of riding in. Stop if direction changes to cross shore

West, being accurate is only useful to a point given the format of the map. When the information is overwhelming it ceases to be effective, this is not an atlas of kiting sites. This is merely a reference of POSSIBLE spots that have been and are being used by kiters all over the Great Lakes Area. It is to be a supplement to the collective wisdom of the forum as I see it. It is not a "be all and end all" map that provides every detail concerning each site.

Look guys, the "Where to Ride" section of the main page is nearly USELESS. I'd appreciate help in making it better instead of debating the effectiveness of the map. This has been a perpetual problem with this forum. We never get anything done because nobody accepts the onus of the work and it never progresses because we're stuck in the past, tied to this idea of "this is how it's always been". I've assumed that responsibility and supplied info based on what I've been able to crowdsource and compile from all over the internet and I've been continuing to update everything based on my experience and the information supplied to me. I can't continue to update spots if nobody sends me information, which would, by the way, make things safer. I've included warnings on the map, and I'm pretty sure I've made things pretty clear as far as what to do to be safe. The kites themselves usually have warnings on them concerning safety, but people still do stupid stuff. Do you really expect further warnings of safety to be magically more effective?

Concerning a more "complete and detailed" map, if someone wants to go ahead and make a google page with paragraphs of details for each spot, I wouldn't complain, but it's certainly not going to be me doing it... for free at least

There will always be stupid people, but there are also many beginners who just have no idea where to go and thus never get to kite. Again, the attitude on this forum is not friendly to beginners, so they hesitate to ask questions. The approach that if they really want to they'll stick with it and inquire further isn't an attitude I think we should collectively have on the forum. There are people who aren't kiting because they simply don't know of locations to go to. I was in that boat for far too long, and I could have progressed MUCH faster if I had known of spots nearby. I had to discover all the water sites in Iowa and all the landkiting spots, because nobody decided to put in any effort to document and then share the sites. I decided to continue to kite despite that, but I know many others would have given up. Why make it difficult for capable kiters to get out? Why make it harder for people to meet kiters on the beach if they're interested? Worst case scenario, you catch someone being an idiot and give them your trainer to use. I almost always bring mine with me for that purpose or light wind.

to answer that kidd: lets take a NW for example and see how complicated this can get!!

On a NW you can "potentially" choose from Montrose, Casino, Miller, Beverly, MC, Weko, St Joe, South Haven and more as you go up! Thats great right? Lots of beaches for my NW to choose from!

Problem with this "where to ride" advise, is that each beach will change and vary for how much wind and or waves will enter the equation. There will be levels of gustiness, maybe moisture, clouds or sun over some parts while not others. Certain beaches will pick-up while others will fade. beach goers may come and go depending on times of the day and per various beaches. Currents vs no current vs waves vs strong winds vs gusty winds!!!

Point is: Each day is very different from one sesh to the next not to mention what one likes for challenges and another does not or how these conditions may play out here in the volatile midwest. One of my own personal criteria is to challenge more big chunky stuff even if the wind veers more on shore, because that is suits my style. I also hate driving long distances or i start driving the car like a TT.

I dont know if you can tell someone "where to ride" that easily? I think just like myself back in the day, I started here, ended up there and now back over here to suit my liking. Given all the fast moving fronts and different parts of the day that present different conditions, its hard to say? Finally, what might be seemingly recommended as a sure fire beach for someone new, might actually be flat water but end-up crazy gusty/slight off shore and quite challenging for a proi!

I do think one has to cut yer teeth and take the time to check em all out (spot check) and then dial back WITHOUT too much advise from those who likely dont know themselves. Eventually you will know what you like by discovering and can then look for scenarios that work. As said there can be many beaches say listed for a rider, but they can literally swap 180 degrees all in the same morning for being good bad or ugly? This is the midwest and its only happening here because a certain lot of us keep exploring, discovering and remain committed and never has or will it be clear cut! After driving, and exploring for over 25 years many of which, without the internet, I still can sometimes find my self taking the day off to drive in a big fat circle into michigan to back home never leaving my car seat! But thats now where a big fat standup paddle board is used to destroy the lip. I got this down now!! I think?

It sounds like there's no possible way to put all that into a map. I'm not saying that the spots are guaranteed. Sometimes you go out and you get skunked... even on a day when the conditions wouldn't lead you to believe skunkage is possible. That's why I prefer beach sites, so at least I've got a nice environment around me. My point is that we're basically discussing the effectiveness of a map that is intended to list potential spots and encourage capable kiters to first discuss sites and then get out there and ride... and I don't understand why it's a problem. All the info you listed above is highly variable from day to day, even in good conditions.

I think at a certain point, it becomes silly to worry so much about the new kiters that we're inevitably going to get. I don't know exactly what point you're trying to prove here. Do you want fewer kiters at beaches? Do you want to prevent people from exploring near them because it's "unsafe"... because kiting is in its very nature unsafe? Are you trying to prevent people from getting disappointed if a spot doesn't turn out as well as it was predicted? I'm really trying to figure out what the main issue is. Because it doesn't sound thus far like an issue that can ever be solved.... and using the same criteria, the current "Where to Ride" page is just as dangerous and even more uninformative.

That's what I don't understand... If you want a comprehensive reference for locations, isn't that what the search toolbar of the forum is for? There's loads of information that (hopefully) will never be deleted. Otherwise, discussion about potential spots should be fruitful for those searching for advice.

If this has been the response for just the existence of locations, there's no way we'd get enough manpower or input for a comprehensive kite site map. But if someone wants to, I'd love to see it happen.

forums come and forums go, kitekid21. Maybe you remember friendster, or the now last gasps of myspace, in michigan for the last 10 years we used a forum called kiteus -- people moved over to facebook, I searched thru the forums there and copied what I could find but I don't think I was able to transfer it all to my google map. The next time there is a renewal up for the DNS that forum is gonna expire.

It's nice to preserve all the information you get from the older sources. When I made my map of michigan kiteboarding locations, I never deleted older information I just added more. I remember myself trying to scope out new locations reading location descriptions of some sites they were a single sentence and I had no idea. It's like going to a new ski resort and hucking one off the first double black diamond you see they aren't all the same!

I do not think brevity is a virtue when writing site descriptions. I like to know where to park, how much it costs to park, thermals waves, wind directions, rocks and where you can buy a great taco after your sesh.

I like your color coded scheme that part is brilliant. That is probably the #1 question, if it is beginner friendly. Oh and at sterling state park on lake erie, it is not shallow 100 feet out it is shallow 10 feet out and that particular beach has some of the nastiest blown out waves you can find, I would give it a yellow not a green. And you can't ride it on a N, NE or S, only E and a little bit in either direction, ENE, ESE

I, for one, find long paragraphs distracting from the point of a "where to ride" section, but maybe that's just me? While it would be nice to have even more space under the entry for each spot, unfortunately, this medium just doesn't look good with a wall of words. It's cumbersome to enter and read the data and it is unfortunately less than ideal to suit everyone's varying needs... though I find it more than adequate as it is for my own.

Part of the main reason why I don't want to have a long description for each section is that there isn't enough dependable info from all my sources; i.e. the sources aren't consistent or are composed by different skill level kiters, not to mention many are as old as 2002. How do I make up for the lack of inconsistency? I do what I can to make sure that the site is clearly marked, warnings are posted on forums and all map locations, information is updated as it is sent to me, the writing is clear, and the information is readily available. It's not going to win awards for best writing, but it does get the basic info across and gives users a good starting point when they're discussing locations with others... And I've already included beer spots where I could find them!

I don't have a problem with concision, BUT the point is accuracy. I've never claimed that this is 100% accurate. Spot sources that are more than 5 years old have (Update?) at the end of them. It is a work in progress, but then again, it always will be!I think part of kiteboarding that I like is the "frontier" feeling I get. At many spots, I never know if I'm the first person to kite there or not. Regardless, it's part of the risk of our sport. Things can and will get hairy out there. Having a long-winded map isn't going to prevent that from happening. Smart kiting and comprehensive resources will make things safer and less risky. Bear in mind that there are some spots that have all that info! I just can't have possibly visited all those spots to do it, so I wait for people to message me!!!

Thanks for your Erie info! I'll get that up. Any more you care to send my way is greatly appreciated.

not sure why it's difficult to update the sites, I entered all my sites in the michigan google maps by hand with a few copy pastes and then did a kml sort to make them alphabetical. Like I said, I like your idea because it's got the different color indicators which is great, but I see nothing wrong with adding data from 2002. I have gone through my map from time to time updating parking fees and such or lands that have been taken private. You can see it here:

When entering data that is not my own I have tried to credit the source, but now that I think about it, adding a year for when that data was added would be great and I think I'll start doing that. Google tells you who updated the site and what time, but inside the text description you can't tell when it was entered unless you type it in.

some locations you'll see three or four entries, a mountain of text. I like all this text! I am no memory wizard I forget things, so I often will go click on my map to remember where to park and how much it costs.

I stole a couple of site descriptions from this forum and forgot to credit where I got the information for, if you notice something I haven't credited, please go ahead and update it with your name.

You've got a great map going there. I hope you don't mind if I borrow some spots. The problem is that I don't know how recent the info is. Potential spots are something I'd rather avoid for the time being. The basic info is there, but very wordy. Especially on the new mapsengine it doesn't look as good to have unorganized info. There's also no way to have unused "data categories" stay blank in the map bubble either so it looks unpolished and incomplete. I'd prefer personally to have a different format, but that's not the reality. My only criticism is the lack of consistency in spot description. Sometimes there's more info. Sometimes there's not. I don't know if its because of how you've pasted the info or if your own info is sparse, but regardless, I'd like your help in solving some of the issues with it.

i post every bit of information I can for each site. If it's short it is because that's all I know. I know you want every field filled in, every site described, with a short concise description, and a color coded tag. You will have to pare down the site descriptions to almost nothing, wind direction and color tag, that's about it, then your data will be consistent.

I won't use it. I will still use my own map. If I know a good place to get tacos I will stick it in the site description. Then a year later I might click on a spot and go "Oh yeah that's the place with the great tacos!"

I just have a feeling more kiters like an untidy bunch of taco filled descriptions better than one that is well organized if the price to pay for organization is less information.

I don't have a great amount of interest in a larger google map, I am quite content with my michigan kiters google map. Except I do like those color coded tags. They are nice.