I swapped room temperature beer for all the water and dropped the dry milk powder.Using the spoon stirring method Pete recommended. All mixing and rest periods were timed with a kitchen timer.

Noted Differences:

I had to use the dough hook sooner to incorporate the rest of the flour. (I may have added the flour in larger quantities than last time. – The dough was a bit chewier, more tooth.)

The dough was too extensible. It stretched and drooped to the tabletop almost the very instant I picked it up to stretch over my fists. Luckily no tears but I continued to handle the dough very gently.

When transferring the pizza to the stone the pizza stretched even further.

This dough has the typical ultra smooth surface and dough feel that I have come to expect from my other beer based recipes.

I'm looking to reduce the overly delicate nature of this dough without increasing the chewiness.

Is there any information on how beer affects the chemistry of pizza or bread making? Espcially how it may or maynot function well during autolyse phase?

PS. The "foldability factor" is still intact.

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The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

From my research on beer-based doughs, I have seen beer substituted for water in part or in whole. Tom Lehmann recommends that one start by using beer at 10% of the weight of flour and use water for the rest of the liquid. From there, one can experiment by gradually increasing the amount of beer in relation to the total liquid. Tom has also indicated that if too much beer is used, the high level of alcohol may impede the performance of the yeast and result in a lesser rise in the dough. In your case, I’m not sure you would have noticed that with the large amount of yeast Steve’s recipe calls for. Tom has also indicated in the past that from his experience, ales tend to produce more flavor impact in the finished crust than regular beers.

As far as your problems with extensibility are concerned, you are bound to get that from time to time with Steve’s dough formulation. Steve’s recipe is a well-designed one (I can try to explain why if you’d like) but, at 69.2% hydration, it is at the upper end of the range where one can reasonably expect to experience problems from time to time. The last time I tried a pizza dough with that high a hydration level was the Gemignani NY style dough formulation set forth in the Morgan-Gemignani cookbook Pizza…More than 60 recipes… I managed it OK but only because I knew what I was getting myself into and took several precautionary measure, some of which I have described below. But it takes real skill and experience to master handling such high hydration doughs. If you go much higher than 70%, you are in danger territory in my opinion for all but the expert dough handlers. In fact, when I tried a Lehmann dough with 75% hydration, just for fun, the dough was completely unmanageable and was an absolute failure (see Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3058.msg25938/topicseen.html#msg25938)

I would like to suggest that you consider one or more of the following possible solutions to the hydration/extensibility problem:

1) Try skipping the autolyse. Autolyse improves the hydration and softens the dough to the point where it may ferment faster and be more extensible. I tried eliminating the autolyse in Steve’s recipe once and didn’t notice a difference, but I made several other changes that may have affected the outcome. But I think it may be worth dispensing with the autolyse just to see what happens. If doing this works, you will also have knocked several minutes off of the dough making process.

2) When working with the dough on the bench after removing it from the bowl (or mixer), consider using a bench knife to turn and otherwise manage the dough, without the use of the hands, rather than adding additional flour if the dough seems too wet. This is a technique that allows you to maintain the hydration level specified by the dough recipe, and is frequently used by bakers of high-hydration bread doughs, such as for ciabatta doughs.

3) When you are ready to work with the dough on the counter to shape the dough into a skin, start by submerging the dough ball in a container of flour and shaking off any excess flour. This is what many professional pizza operators do. Try not to add too much flour at this point because it can add some bitterness to the finished crust upon baking, and possibly affect the bake itself because of the possibility of the raw “white” flour reflecting heat upon baking. If you add too much flour at this point to compensate for the high hydration levels, or at the earlier stage in the bowl while mixing/kneading, you may as well just reformulate the recipe for a lower hydration to begin with. That would be contrary to what I believe Steve was attempting to accomplish with his dough formulation.

4) When shaping and stretching the dough, start by pressing the dough outwardly as much as possible with your fingers, without disturbing the rim of the dough. If you can lift the dough and safely stretch it out a few more inches, then do so. But you should stop as soon as you see that the dough is running out of control or if thin spots start to form. This is characteristic of a high hydration dough under the influence of gravity, especially for a relatively large dough ball weight (over 18 ounces in Steve’s recipe), so you shouldn’t be alarmed. What you might then do is finish the stretching of the dough completely on your work surface. The way I do this is to place the palm of one hand flat on the dough several inches from the edge and then use the fingers of my other hand to pull the dough outwardly, being careful not to crush the rim. In my case, I am right-handed, so I put the palm of my left hand down flat on the dough while pulling the dough outwardly from the edge with the fingers of my right hand. I rotate the skin and continue until the skin is at the right diameter and nicely rounded. A highly-extensible dough will stretch and pull outwardly quite easily using this technique, without tearing. To me, it is not a failure because I can’t entirely stretch a high-hydration dough out to 16” using only my knuckles, tossing the dough in the air, etc. If I want to show off, I would select a low-hydration dough and use a much smaller pizza size.

5) Once the skin has been prepared, be sure that it will slide easily on the peel while there is still a chance to correct things if it doesn’t. In line with this step, you should practice the French cooking technique of mis en place, or having everything at the ready, including sauce, cheeses, seasonings, and toppings. Otherwise, the dressed pizza may stick to the peel because of the high hydration of the dough and too much rest time on the peel as you gather up all the stuff you plan to put on the skin. At that point, the sticking problem becomes more difficult to correct. Some bakers run a string under dressed pizzas as a matter of course just to be sure the dough won’t stick to the peel or go into the oven and change shape in the process because the dough stuck at a point on the peel. Hopefully, you won’t have to avail yourself of this technique.

Peter, to my utter amazement I used the dough scaper method, the flour basting method, and I didn't even need to use my palm when stretching the dough on the work counter. I just pinched a bit of the rim and pulled it towards me and it just stretched. Lifting the dough just a half an inch would cause it to instantly stretch. I seriously could have stretched it tissue thin, to 30 inches without a tear.

I've never seen anything like this... Highly-extensible. Absolutely NO resistence but plenty of gluten development.

I've mentioned my fry-bread recipe before...it's 1 lbs of AP flour to 12. oz water and is basically an autolyse only - no kneading. It has to be coated in flour, patted and stretched but it dosen't respond like this. It has to be handled delicately but at least there is SOME resistence.

Admittedly, I'm just a bit freaked out becuase I'm not understanding the dynamics at play here.

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From my research on beer-based doughs, I have seen beer substituted for water in part or in whole. Tom Lehmann recommends that one start by using beer at 10% of the weight of flour and use water for the rest of the liquid. From there, one can experiment by gradually increasing the amount of beer in relation to the total liquid. Tom has also indicated that if too much beer is used, the high level of alcohol may impede the performance of the yeast and result in a lesser rise in the dough. In your case, I’m not sure you would have noticed that with the large amount of yeast Steve’s recipe calls for. Tom has also indicated in the past that from his experience, ales tend to produce more flavor impact in the finished crust than regular beers.

There was less rise, but it was still at a very acceptable level. All my beer doughs tend not to rise much during room temp. ferment, but have very nice oven-spring.

I'm using a light lager (Mosehead) in the dough and sauce and we are finding to the flavor to be just right for our palate.

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As far as your problems with extensibility are concerned, you are bound to get that from time to time with Steve’s dough formulation. Steve’s recipe is a well-designed one (I can try to explain why if you’d like) but, at 69.2% hydration, it is at the upper end of the range where one can reasonably expect to experience problems from time to time

Actually, if you don't mind, I think I need the explaination. It may help trigger something I hadn't thought of.

Thanks for the link, I knew it was here, I just couldn't find it. Maybe that'll help too.

***Since beer is suppose to make a lighter dough, I debated about the autolyse. It may have been over-kill. I'll try eliminating it. My next move will be replacing some of the beer for water. Lastly I'll try altering the hydration, but I'm trying to avoid that.

I was planning on a cold ferment, but I don't think thats such a good idea at this point.

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The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Most short term doughs that use a lot of yeast, and especially if the water is also warm, tend to be quite extensible. From what I have seen of dough formulations intended to be used for a dough to be made in a few hours, none that I can recall have hydration levels as high as Steve's. I think that is the main reason why your dough was so extensible, possibly along with using the autolyse, as previously discussed. The use of hand mixing may also have contributed to the effect.

There are several reasons why I think Steve's dough recipe is well designed.

First, using the high-gluten flour will provide more flavor in the finished crust because of the higher levels of protein (KASL is also one of the highest in this respect). Whether that is good or bad is a question of personal taste, but that is the theory. The higher-gluten flour will also have a better, more developed gluten structure, because of the higher gluten levels, that retains the gases of fermentation better and longer than lower gluten flours. That should translate into a higher rise, along with increased chewiness in the crust and increased browning that come from the higher protein levels.

Second, Steve's dough formulation uses a high level of yeast, about double or triple the normal amount for a dough that is to be subjected to a long fermentation, either at room temperature or in the refrigerator. Doubling or tripling the yeast is the recommended approach for a few-hours dough. The maximum that is usually recommended for instant dry yeast (IDY) is 1%. Steve's recipe calls for 0.75%, by my calculation.

Third, using a high hydration--69.2% in Steve's case--will allow rapid fermentation given the amount of time involved (about 2 1/2 hours total). The high fermentation is conducive to increased extensibility of the dough. Steve could have added some oil to his formulation, and that would have also aided the extensibility of the dough, but the extensibility was already plenty high enough without the oil.

Fourth, the use of the autolyse improves the hydration of the flour and cuts down on the total required knead time and thereby reduces the destruction of carotenoids in the flour. Steve uses the classic Professor Calvel autolyse sequence of flour and water, a period of rest (30 minutes), followed by the addition of yeast and salt. Hydrating flour and water alone is better because salt works on the gluten (to toughen it) and yeast can acidify the dough. I think in Steve's case, it might be possible to add the yeast to the flour and water since it ordinarily takes yeast roughly 20-30 minutes to start to go to work. I believe even Professor Calvel ultimately condoned the addition of the yeast to the flour and water during the autolyse rest period.

Finally, the use of the food processor greatly expedites the dough making process. Using the pulse feature and a small amount of normal run time at the end of the knead, minimizes the buildup of heat in the dough and minimizes the possibility of overkneading the dough. Steve uses cold water which also helps minimize heat buildup in the dough. It's possible that Steve could have used warmer water but if the dough rises too quickly, it is possible for the finished crust to have "off' flavors. In Steve's case, the roughly 18 ounces of dough is within the limits of his food processor. That amount of dough for a 16-inch pizza translates to a thickness factor of 0.09. That's a little bit less than the 0.10-0.105 reference point often used for NY "street" styles.

Lydia, I wouldn't recommend cold fermenting the dough made from Steve's recipe, as it. It may well work, but for best results you might want to cut back on the amount of yeast, by a third or half, and you might want to reduce the hydration level so that the dough doesn't ferment too quickly.

I used a 6 hr. refrigerated rest with a 2 hrs. to bring to room temp. and loved the enhance flavor, color and texture. So it's a short ferment IMHO it was the equivalent of the typical 24hrs. required to develop such flavors and crust characeristics. Which totaly impressed me. I may have added the instant milk, and used the KA instead but I attribute this cool feature to Steve's formula.

Lydia - I'm interested in your beer doughs. Can you describe the taste? How does it differ from a regular water based dough? I just made my biweekly pies so I won't be at it for a couple of weeks. Based on your experience would you recuce the beer to half the liquid or keep it all beer? I'm thinking of using it in a standard Lehman 63% hydration recipe with a one day (make dough in the morning, bake in the afternoon) rise. I noticed that you put in nonfat milk powder. What does this add? Do you think it will work OK without it. Thanks for any input.

I will defer to Lydia on the beer issue, but if you intend to use a high ratio of beer to total liquid in the Lehmann dough formulation, you might try increasing the yeast a bit to compensate for the possibility that the dough may not rise as much (as Lydia has already noted) because of the effects of alcohol in the beer on the performance of the yeast.

As far the dry non-fat milk powder is concerned, Tom Lehmann usually talks about it in the context of providing more crust color (because of the lactose content) but prefers sugar or dried dairy whey, quite often because they are cheaper than non-fat dry milk powder. And he is quite firm on the form of non-fat dry milk that should be used, i.e., baker's grade, as noted here: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index2.cgi/read/12436. If the supermarket non-fat dry milk powder is used, he recommends that it be reconstituted and scalded (and cooled), as indicated from this excerpt I found at PMQ:

Milk. If we're talking fresh milk, you would need to scald it before using it, or you will end up with some softening of the dough due to the addition of the milk (this is due to an affect of the whey proteins that are present in the milk). If you use a high heat, bakery grade dry milk powder this won't be a problem. Regular dry milk powder will still need to be scalded as it is not high heat treated. With all of that said, the only affect of adding milk to the dough would be to increase the crust color due to the lactose content of the milk. With dry milk selling at above $1.00 per pound, and liquid milk selling at about $0.50 per pound, sugar, at about $0.35 per pound seems to be a better way to get crust color and it is easier to use than liquid milk too. Or, another option would be to use a bakery grade whey, at 70% lactose it really contributes to crust color and the cost is more reasonable too at about $0.50 per pound (about the same as liquid milk, but you use only half as much to achieve the same results).

OK Pete - I've never had a problem with color, but maybe I'm not very picky. Thanks for the tip on increasing the yeast. BTW, I know that upping the salt increases crust flavor, but what does it do to crust texture?

Salt is often viewed as a "regulator" of the fermentation process because of its effect on that process, and increasing or decreasing its amount can have an impact on the finished crust beyond flavor. Usually, you don't want to exceed about 2% salt by weight of flour, but there are ways of exceeding that level if other changes are made (like increasing yeast levels, hydration levels, adding diastatic malt, etc.). For Steve's recipe, I calculated 1.4% salt. For the basic Lehmann dough it is 1.75%. So, both are in good shape from that standpoint. In Italy, salt is more frequently used as a tool for regulating the fermentation process, and it is not uncommon to see levels of salt in excess of 2%. In almost all cases, the fermentation of the dough is intended to take place at room temperature, which apparently tolerates higher salt levels for long fermentation/maturation periods.

Since salt affects gluten development (it toughens it to hold more gas better and longer), the yeast, and enzymes (mainly the protease enzyme that attacks gluten to soften it), it can have an effect on the final texture and other characteristics of the finished crust. The amount of salt in relation to the other ingredients can materially determine whether a crust is thick or thin or soft or hard.

When I first started replacing the all the water for beer in same-day dough recipes, I was quite surprised. I was expecting flavors similar to that of an overnight ferment. Especially since we often refer to those yeasty fermented flavors as beer-like.

My experience with Budweiser and the Moosehead lager are that they give off a mellow malty sweetness, nothing yeasty. So choose a beer, lager, etc. that you like the Flavor of. I'm speaking of the flavor hidden underneath the yeast flavor.

Also, I add the beer to Escalon tomatoes, which is adding another dimension. I would say that it is somewhat like adding wine, which imparts a sense of fruity-sweetness. I tend to avoid adding sugar to Escalons because I find the sweetness from the added sugar to be too sharp. This sweetness is pleasantly mellow with plenty of character that has been consistent no matter how I changed the spices. I'm also rehydrating the onion in the beer before adding it to the seasoned sauce. Also adding more beer doesn't enhance the "beer flavor" much. Allowing the sauce to rest overnight does enhance the beer flavors, and am happy to report no hint of yeastiness. You can add either water or beer to replace the moisture lost during refrigeration without altering the flavor.

Now with all that said, when you taste your pie, your first thought may not be "this tastes like beer". But if you take swig of beer with your pizza you can identify those Underlying "flavors" I referred to.

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How does it differ from a regular water based dough? ....How does it differ from a regular water based dough? ... Based on your experience would you recuce the beer to half the liquid or keep it all beer?

I'm going to aswere these collectively as best as I can. Using beer is still a relatively new experience compared to nearly everthing I make.

At this point and time I cant give a reliable generalization on how the beer affects the final texture. They have been drastically different based on varioius recipes and methods used. So until I make observations on one single recipe, it's difficult to say.

When I replaced all the water for beer in my http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php#1 semolina recipe with a 3 day cold ferment, the texture changed drastically from the original made with a 3 day ferment. It developed a texture that, if I had not know better, would lead me to belive it contained HG flour. But this is the only cold ferment recipe I have tried with beer. But I can tell you that the beer flavor and the typical yeasty flavor from a long ferment were both strong and equally present. It was also more prone to bubble development during baking than the original.

The majority of the recipes I've tried have been same day doughs with high or rediculously high amounts yeast. I saw no difference between the high vs. rediculously high yeast dough in regard to how the dough rose during it's first room temperature proof. They have reached their full capacity in about a half hour. It appears that allowing for as much as an additional hour has no affect on how much the dough will grow at this point. Strangley, and bear with me on this one, the doughs appear to be breathing. I'll explain...the carbon bubbles in the beer stay intact and are apparently moving to some small degree. When I flatten out these doughs I can feel those tiny effervescent bubbles popping under the pressure. The beer doughs tend to look and feel ultra-smooth and silky and tend to feel more dense and tight and a bit tacky. I have tried either flour or a minute amount of oil and have not developed a preference.

After forming, I have been allowing for at least 45 minute rest before baking. The dough seems to rise more than the first rise. In addition they have all had nice groth in the oven.

I've been using parchment lightly dusted or lighly oiled pans instead of directly on a peel to head off the likelyhood of sticking from the extended rest.

This is the first time I have used beer with an autolysis, and something happened to the CO2. No bubbles. I am reducing the beer only as a troubleshooting measure for the overly extensablility in this formula. I also believe this is my first experience using beer with HG flour. And to make matters worse I dont have any specs. on La Romanella HG flour since it's a private label for Smart & Final.

I would follow Peter recommendation of increasing the yeast in the lehman dough, but Don't be too worried if it doesn't rise at room temp. like normal. I feel that it will recover well in the oven. But if it bakes dense, at that point I would increase the yeast further. The rediculous amount of yeast I have been using is "approximately" 1T ADY to 3 1/2 cups AP flour.

ASAP: In new topic I will post the weights I have been using for the Semolina dough and also post another for the ranges of variables for the deep-dish dough that I have been primarily experimenting with.

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I noticed that you put in nonfat milk powder. What does this add? Do you think it will work OK without it.

I added the milk powder to Steve's Quik N EZ to compensate for the comments about lack of color and flavor. Using this would preserve it's quik N EZ Nature. I eliminated the use of the instant milk powder when I added the beer becuase it will function in a similar way to provide color, flavor and tenderness. So I don't suggest adding powdered milk to the Lehman dough.

I know Lehman frowns on using standard instant non-fat milk powder, and I don't doubt that whey probably works more effeciently. My reasons for using it is that I always have it on hand, I have liked the results, so I continue to add it when I felt the dough could benefit from it.

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The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.