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"I Guess I'll Just Go that Way, Then"

Makes me want to start smoking again.

So I'm chatting with a black female coworker and friend of mine, and she's talking about a former coworker of hers who's recently moved to a city where there's "so many black people!!!!!" (he's a white guy). And since he's been unlucky in love lately (white women), he's decided that he'll just "go that way"...i.e., start dating black women.

Him: "There's so many of them here, I guess I'll just go that way then."Her: "Um, no...no, you won't."

It Doesn't Work That Way

If you're a white guy trying to date black women simply because there aren't any white women readily available, you've already committed a major fail. Just go right on ahead and prepare for it to blow up in your face.We're not "the Substitute"

We're not a substitute for women. We are women. When you date a black woman, you're doing just that - dating a woman. Where dates, gifts, terms of endearments, respect and overall treatment are concerned, she has many of the same expectations as other women.

I've noticed that in film and TV, white male characters complain a lot about women "crying on them", how it's "blackmail", etc. At first I wondered why they complained about this so much; I don't see many male characters of color complaining about this. But that's when I remembered: white guys have to deal with WWT more than anybody else, and unsurprisingly enough, they're sick of it.

And while every POC in the Western Hemisphere can relate to that overwhelming wave of nausea, a white guy shouldn't think that if he dates a black woman, he'll never have to deal with a woman's tears again.

A black woman is not made of teflon and adamantium, as certain folks 'round here would say. She can cry, contrary to popular myth...in fact, I find it amusing (in a non-amusing way) that considering the history of this country, people are quick to believe something so ludicrous as a black woman's mythic inability to cry.

We're not "something to do right now"; nor is it our primary job to support you and build your self-esteem up until you meet the woman "you really see yourself with".

Desire is a crucial factor

White guys, if you want to go out with a black woman, it better be because you want that woman. You know her, you've spoken with her, you like her, and you have things in common. You think she's beautiful, and not "for a black woman." You dream about her, she raises your heartbeat, and you find yourself thinking about her for most of the day. You talk about her to friends and family all the time. You feel like if you dated, it could actually go somewhere.

If she doesn't make you feel this way, leave her the hell alone.

Race is a crucial factor

It's not a black woman's job to educate her white significant other about race. They should already be doing that on their own, and they need to have the fortitude to deal with the inevitable. If your family hates black people, it's your job to straighten them out before they ever meet a black woman you date. Do not subject her to an "ambush", and if your family is racist towards her in anyway, never take their side.

White women (as a group) are a factor

Black women have a saying: the more white guys a black woman dates, the fewer white female friends she has. Literally, white guys, the number steadily decreases over time.

White women don't like it; they don't "trust" black women who date white men. And white guys...don't bother bringing up the glaringly hypocritical white female obsession with black men - it doesn't register to them. In the mind of your average white woman, white women are supposed to be first choice, every time. And when the universe quite naturally disagrees with them on this, they cannot handle it. No joke, white guys; white women would rather you turn gay or be accidentally castrated than have you date black women.

So white guys, you'll eventually have to have a sit-down with white women to let them know they can't have everyone, and everything can't always be about them. It's an unrealistic expectation which inevitably brings about disappointment. Now...you may have to be an asshole about this, because they most certainly will be. I can't tell you how many times I've been out with a white guy and our date, dance, or even make-out session* was shamelessly hijacked by some white chick.

I don't go out with any of these men anymore (or white guys at all anymore, really); that tends to happen when white guys don't handle women like these swiftly and efficiently.

White women don't like it, so you may want to either memorize the phrase "Go away" or give up on dating black women right the hell now.

It's not all about sex

The man I mentioned up top propositioned both me and my coworker at varying times, and his main reason for wanting to have sex with black women was because "white women were crazy" and he was "getting sick of it." Naturally, she and I both shot him down; in fact, the night he propositioned me, I firmly redirected him to another woman. Meanwhile, my friend is happily involved with an older white guy who's much more mature than this dude.

Whatever myths you've heard about black women in bed, forget them. And no...what you've seen in porn doesn't count at as "research".

We're not a tool for revenge

Now that you realize dating a black women will make white female heads explode, don't start dating black women just to get back at them or to see how much drama you can stir up. This will get you dumped on the spot. Keep in mind: white women who try to crash your dates don't want you, not for themselves. They just don't want you to be with anyone else. Again, don't bother bringing up black men to them, because that precious little tidbit of glaring hypocrisy just will not register.

If you don't see a future with us, leave us alone

This is for black women as much as it is for white men. Hell, anyone can take this advice. If someone doesn't want to date you seriously because of the race issue, then when they don't ask you out or don't agree to go out with you, they've just done you a favor. It's a not platitude when people say, "No, seriously...you could do a lot better."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*This is a serious problem, the point it's not even funny. I can't count how many times a white guy will be talking to me, and white women in the vicinity (professing to be friends of mine) will call him away. Or a guy and I could be kissing, and a white woman would come over and watch us until we paused to be like, "WTF?" while she fumbled for an excuse to pull him a way.

Seriously...my list of stories goes on and on. Black women, what are yours?

Comments

Hmmm, the only experience I have with dating interracial is in NYC, and Toronto. I guess it's more common there so I never had this problem from females of other races. Not to make those cities sound like multicultural paradises just never got shade from females about my dating choices like I have in Buffalo, NY.

When I was in Toronto I was friends with this Ukranian girl who because she went with mostly black guys, couldn't understand why I was attracted to some white guys, not why they were attracted to me. She was just more attracted to black men and we would critique dudes together, even though we had different preferences. She didn't like blonde men, even if they were handsome! I would tease her about this: "He can dye his hair." But she would insist that blonde hair was unmanly, even if she conceded that he was attractive. Mind you she was a blonde!

The first time I hung out with her she even introduced me to several white guys who thought I was cute: "This is John and he would really like to get to know you." No shade, no hate, no jealousy, no insecurity between us. we just enjoyed being pretty young women, having a good time.

Needless to say, I'm avoid Americans in general. They have this heirarchical system when it comes to race and class that taints everything socially. All of the people I have dated in the US black or white were originally born and lived somewhere else: French/Polish, St.Lucian, Guyanese, Hungarian/British, Italian. And they approached mewith respect and weren't shy about indicating their interest, taking me on dates in public and all that.

I love this post, and I wish I could just spam it out all over the place.

White guys, if want to go out with a black woman, it better be because you want that woman. You know her, you've spoken with her, you like her, and you have things in common. You think she's beautiful, and not "for a black woman." You dream about her, she raises your heartbeat, and you find yourself thinking about her for most of the day. You talk about her to friends and family all the time. You feel like if you dated, it could actually go somewhere.

I thought this part was cute, and very true (sounds like my boyfriend :-P). If he can't say what he specifically likes about you, it's a bad sign.

Preach! Be a Black woman dating a White guy and you turn into Public Enemy Number 1. And it's not just random White girls--exes and "coulda beens" will jump out of the woodwork as soon as your name comes up.

White women don't like it, so you may want to either memorize the phrase "Go away" or give up on dating black women right the hell now.

Again, too true. My boyfriend is the King of PDA, and you would think we were f*cking in public the way some White women stare. Apparently, him not being ashamed to hold my hand or *gasp* kiss me in public is a spectacle.

My boyfriend brings me up every other sentence, which usually keeps the crows away. I've never had anyone interrupt us, probably because we stay "cakin' it" (showing my age :-P).

Last paragraph 100% cosign as well, and I would add to your advice to Black women that we should check out a guy's friends/acquaintances before getting involved. If you are the only Black person he knows, it's generally a bad sign (unless he lives somewhere where there are no Black people, but I've generally seen that it's the ones in DC, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. who want to act brand-new).

Actually she was attracted to "street guys" and I was attracted to "intellectuals". It wasn't a black or white thing, it was about a certain style and attitude that they presented. I don't like tatoos per se, she loved them, it was like a requirement. Like we would check out guys on the train and I'd see a cute guy wearing glasses and jeans that weren't baggy(any race) and she'd be like " Eh, he looks boring, not my type." Then without fail she'd see a guy with baggy jeans, a chain hanging down, trainers(usually Nike or Adidas), hat cocked back, leaning and she'd be like "Oh he's cute!"

It was the funniest thing how completely opposite our tastes in men were. I thought those guys were cute too but usually I wouldn't think of dating them because I figured we wouldn't have anything in common romantically/intellectually. I was like "uptown" and she was like "downtown" if you get my drift. She was also younger than me so maybe that's why.

"We're not a substitute for women. We are women. When you date a black woman, you're doing just that - dating a woman. Where dates, gifts, terms of endearments, respect and overall treatment are concerned, she has many of the same expectations as other women."

I'm so glad I don't have to directly deal with this kind of drama anymore. I had the same issue when I was dating Mariko, all the Japanese guys who were supposed to be my friends got all pissed off, including the one who was dating a super-blond white girl. The Korean contingent at Salem pulled the same thing with one of our friends, refusing to let her hang out with non-Asians and eventually driving her out of the country.

The geek squad in the bio departments I've been in are so much better about that. They still have plenty of drama and issues, but nobody bats an eye about race, if anything interracial dating is more common among the un-married grad students than not.

On the account of what to expect when dating somebody outside your ethnic group, I would say culture plays a huge part in it as well. Dating a Japanese girl, Korean girl, or Han Chinese are all going to be very different culturally despite being fairly close genetically and similarly, dating two African-American women who group up in the same neighborhood would likely be fairly similar in that regard, even if they might have vastly different genetics.

"White women don't like it; they don't "trust" black women who date white men."THANK YOU!! I've been waiting for this post ever since I started datingmy White boyfriend for about a month now, and even if before we were dating I've been given 'looks' by White Women.

The most incredulous time was when by bf-then friend- and I were walking to the grocery store and this one white woman was with her white boyfriend in front of us, holding hands. When we all stopped at an intersection, she had let go of her boyfriend's hand. Upon turning around and seeing me with my friend-not boyfriend yet-this white woman had the audacity to quickly grab onto her boyfriend's arm, like I'm a "White man stealer". I was like, is this bitch serious right now? I feel I must be paranoid, but whenever we hold hands some White women steal envious and incredulous glances. It's so hypocritical because my bf is kinda a nerdy guy, tall and lanky (so sexy in my eyes) but not an Alpha White Male that these white women usually drool over.

Yet, once they see a White man, any White man-who is supposed to just KNOW the inherent beauty and superiority of White women and not even look my way-with me, a Black woman, they don't really know how to handle it. My bf's white girl friends get super quiet around me, especially if he is showing intimacy towards me. I notice his White Male friends don't mind me at all, but his girl friends quickly quickly get quiet. I'm just like, "yeah, this White man's mine; get over it"

"The more white guys a black woman dates, the fewer white female friends she has. Literally, white guys, the number steadily decreases over time."The reaction I got when I told all my friends that I was in a relationship with my boyfriend is definitely split by race. Everyone was happy for me...until I showed his picture. When I showed his pic to my closest closest White friends and all my friends of color (black, latino, asian), they were very supportive and commented on his handsomeness and said we were cute together. When I showed his pic to my other White friends, they got super quiet and just were like "oh...congrats" and then had nothing left to say on the topic. But oh well, thank you for this post so I can relate.

"The reaction I got when I told all my friends that I was in a relationship with my boyfriend is definitely split by race. Everyone was happy for me...until I showed his picture. When I showed his pic to my closest closest White friends and all my friends of color (black, latino, asian), they were very supportive and commented on his handsomeness and said we were cute together. When I showed his pic to my other White friends, they got super quiet and just were like "oh...congrats"

my response:

damn, when I was in the car with my old friends from high school one year in college and we got on the subject of dating and I said how I wasn't interesting in dating anyone right now...they asked me if anyone had asked me out lately...and I said "yes, this guy asked me to go to the movies", he works at the convenience store on campus and I told them that I said i'd have to think about it, but never got back to him...and I didn't mention anything about race at all...but then they asked me what he looked like and I said "he had green eyes, brown hair," and my good friend asked me "was he white..." and I said "yes" without thinking much else about it...and the car went dead silent...for a moment, just dead silent, and I was thinking to myself wtf...but it didn't occur to me at all that maybe my white female friends were uncomfortable with the idea of that until you commented on that reaction from your friends who were also white female, wow...hmmm

after a moment one of my friends asked me if he was cute and I said "he was alright looking," cuz he was just average looking to me and that was the end of the conversation

and I really didn't even look at white men as dating material back then

Last paragraph 100% cosign as well, and I would add to your advice to Black women that we should check out a guy's friends/acquaintances before getting involved. If you are the only Black person he knows, it's generally a bad sign (unless he lives somewhere where there are no Black people, but I've generally seen that it's the ones in DC, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. who want to act brand-new).

@AMMy best girlfriend from Kenya recently started dating a Jewish man and we were both talking about our newfound interracial relationships, especially when it comes to White women trying to throw shade at us. She told me that she felt sooo uncomfortable holding his hand at the mall because of all the stares White women would throw her way. Her boyfriend understood completely.

She told me that her White boyfriend is very aware of the double standard (she said it helps that he's Jewish). He told her that his White male friend told him that he was happy that he was with a girl "he found attractive". When he pressed him on what he meant, he clarified that he doesn't find Black women attractive but was happy for him *insert face palm*She also told me plenty of times White men told her she was exotic and pretty for "an African"...uh no.

Sorry if I took to hard of a tangent there, if I offended anyone I apologize. I felt like my experiences were in the same vein and that wasn't exactly the happiest time in my life and I'm sure you remember the disaster that all turned into.

Speaking of which, have you ever dated a black woman? Known for you for nearly 15 years now, babe...don't think you ever did.

I have actually been romantically involved with more than three people despite what it may seem. I think they only major ethnic group I haven't gone out with is American Indian ironically enough. Now I don't think I've gone out with with an African-American woman, the ladies in question were either from Africa proper or Latin America.

Though for what its worth, other than what I've mentioned above, nobody worth my slightest regard has given even the slightest bit of a damn in regards to the ethnicity of who've I've dated.

Much like most of my romantic life, rather unremarkable. Some of my male acquaintances (non-American, non-white: I didn't have any white male friends at this particular point in time) gave me some shit for dating the girl from Haiti, but these were the same people who gave me shit for dating Mariko. I can't remember anyone caring about the girls I dated at State, but then again most of the American's there hated me anyways. It can be hard for me to distinguish the normal levels of fear and hatred* I seem to inspire from those directed at whom I might be with. However, since moving to the Deep South I'm well away I couldn't get off so easily. There are some hateful motherfuckers here, nobody should ever have to say "man I miss WV, where people were so much less bigoted."

Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone. I usually try for at least a polite supportive response rather than just chiming in on things involving Native Americans or superheroes.

* No, seriously. And no I don't get it either, everybody seems to think I'm the nicest guy ever or a serial killer.

@ AhnkNo, she was not a hater. She was also bi as I recently found out so maybe that had something to do with it?I'm not surprised by anything you posted,mind you! I'm just so shocked that this type of behavior is the still the norm. I know my naivette is showing here. I'm only 22?

WARNING; You may throw up so read this on an empty stomach.

I've seen all these behaviors exhibited by White women in another situation recently with a friend of mine.

She was this Jamaican girl and we were friends, then this white guy shows up in class, mind you he's the only one, who appears to be interested in her........ and then....the shit hits the fan.

The shit those girls did would be called harassment in any other situation. Of course they got away with it because they're white. The Administration even backed them up.

She's originally from Miami and at first she was cool with these girls. I warned her that they acted nice but were probably bitches.She ignored me.

So I wasn't surprised when a minor disagreement turned into a big problem. They asked her why she wasn't doing something She told them it was none of their business.

Him talking to her and indicating his interest by sitting next to her during class all of the sudden made the classroom disruptive. (People are talking, too much! I can't concentrate!) So then all of the sudden they had to go to a counselor at the school for the way she snapped at them. They were very hurtand cried WWT ;_;. And she was suspended for a behavior infraction. One more problem from her and she would have been terminated from the program.

All because this one girl in their clique was jealous of the fact that this, not even that attractive, guy was interested in her.

They almost got her kicked out of the program, as was their intention. I guess the pressure worked on the guy too because he eventually stopped hanging out with us and started hanging out with them.

@ leo PrincessThe admin refused to see it for what it was. Jealousy, and funny you should say that because even though the one girl admitted she was "immature"( I know I'm immature but it really hurt when you snapped at me like that......o_O) they still acted like my friend was the one at fault even though the two girls accusing her admitted that they were the aggressors in the situation.

I make no further promises of coherency, the woman requires booze after another horrible day of work.

@Student: Yeah, bi girls/guys tend to be so much more chill about this crap, I think once you've gone that far outside "mainstream society" you usually stop caring about the elitist social status bullshit. That goes for lesbians too. Gay men not so much, in general that is, Javier was awesome. There's a reason my list of close friends list tends to read like the Rainbow Alliance roster.

Your friend should be nominated for sainthood for not choking somebody out over that. I can't stand cliquey over-entitled...I can't even think of a work strong enough to finish that that I'm willing to type on an open forum. The white ladies at Vic's work are all like that, even the otherwise nice one's you get a few drinks in them and the angry, bigoted bile starts pouring. And most of them don't even understand what they are saying is bigoted, they think because they aren't out there burning a cross on somebodies lawn that they aren't doing anything wrong. I could rant on that for awhile, but I'll try and contain my tangents for now.

@Ankhesen Mié/cue my incredibly boring love life.

She was my friend's roommate's friend's roommate and part of our group freshman year, which, in an "international university" was one of the only international groups...have I mentioned how much I hate cliquey people yet? She wanted to go see Save the Last Dance, so I told her I would take her. We kept it pretty casual, this was still when I was horribly shy and went out (as much as living in the middle of the woods with no car allows for going out) a few more times, before it just kind of ended up "just friends." This was ten years ago, so other than the evil Guatemalan midget getting pissed off and a few of the Japanese guys looking at me like "why would you date a black woman?" it wasn't really a big deal to anyone that I can remember, but it was Salem and I had worked at Kroger's getting carts that summer so at that point anyone who wasn't a close friend probably thought I was Mexican (Did you know people thought that AM? I didn't realize people thought that till one day I got some friends from High School drunk and one of them mentioned it...then just about every agreed. Well, one lady thought I was Croatian which is odd and very specific.) We hung out during the rest of her time there to one degree or another, I ended up dating another friend's roommate and falling face first into the drama I mentioned above in my somewhat-good-natured naivety. She ended up doing the on and off thing with the local black samurai, and sadly, like many of my pre-Facebook friends I haven't heard from her since graduation.

Correct as usually, especially the first part. Some non-black men seen to think black women are a viable "option" when they are failIng with their own women/ the women "they really want". Not having that, no way no how.

Correct as usually, especially the first part. Some non-black men seen to think black women are a viable "option" when they are failIng with their own women/ the women "they really want". Not having that, no way no how.

It seems like these type of men going to black women as a last resort is just them doing what alot of white people do to POCs in any situation: setting them up to fail. What is it about them that makes them feel like they have to do this to everyone? I don't understand that, maybe it's them feel better about their own inadequacies?

@ AkantisIt can be hard for me to distinguish the normal levels of fear and hatred* I seem to inspire from those directed at whom I might be with. However, since moving to the Deep South I'm well away I couldn't get off so easily. There are some hateful motherfuckers here, nobody should ever have to say "man I miss WV, where people were so much less bigoted."

Same problem I'm having now except in the Northeast. Thank god I'm getting my passport renewed so i can head over to Canada to chill with my home girls when I need a real relaxed environment.

I've mentioned enough about WW who suddenly MUST talk to Chad all the way at the other side of the room when they see Chad chatting you up at a function. Oh, and by the way, your Black ass can talk to Willy, the Black, 74 year-old, grade-school-educated janitor because you two OBVIOUSLY have sooooooo much in common.

The Man prefers BW, but not every damn BW that comes down the pike. That's another assumption, that if a WM likes BW he'll take WTFever as long as it's a BW. Same with folks thinking that a BW who dates WM will date anydayumthang that's White.

We don't notice the WW shade as much anymore. Partly cuz we're getting older and you just get less attention after a certain age. Plus, here, folks tend to respect the wedding ring. I think they see our wedding bands and think, "Damn. Well, her Black ass GOT him but good!" White female waitstaff finally get that we are, in fact, together thanks to said wedding rings.

I've found a group of people who are not shady about my relationship. Ironically, the last person who threw shade was a BW (and Ankh, you know all about her) because her ass was bitter that she was in her mid-30s and alone so she was hatin' on everyone she knew who was in a relationship.

Re: White women harassing Black women who get the interest of White men . . .

Hold on. Waitasec. I thought WE were supposed to be jealous of THEM - so jealous, in fact, that it's believable that we'd walk around carrying cups full of acid to throw on their faces. Because we're so jealous.

White women need a serious reality check. No other way to say it. Women are highly competitive and there's also a lot of female jealousy going on. Add racism into this equation and you get a mess.

It's easy to say "just ignore them" (white women) when nobody stares at me and my husband. Also, I believe ignoring is not even the best tactic- people need to be as clear as possible. Just tell her to get the fuck out of there and leave you alone. And when I say "you", I actually mean both of you (the couple). Maybe even the (white) guy alone.

White girls are soooo used to get all the male attention and they are completely unprepared for such a treatment. I am not saying your guy should fight her or attack her, but a simple "leave us alone" is enough.

Obviously, they (white women) believe they somehow "own" these white guys even if YOU are their date, girlfriend, wife or mother of their children. They (white girls) believe they somehow own the white guys even if they don't really know said white guys!

An advice for white women: unless the guy is your guy (boyfriend, husband), he is not "yours" in a way you should feel entitled to him. He can date and love whoever he wants and it might not be you- so get over it.

And if he is with a black woman- guess what- it has nothing to do with you. He is with her because he wants to be with her, and he finds her (gasp!) better than you. Why wouldn't he? Just get over yourself and find yourself a man so stop hating.

You don't own white men and black women are not your substitutes. No matter what society has taught you, you are not universal first choice for all men.

Student of the World,

Is your friend Ukranian, or just of Ukranian ancestry? I am sorry to say many Eastern European women are into "macho" men and completely ignore all those decent, cute nice guys. So that might be the reason behind her love for "street guys".

Also, I believe ignoring is not even the best tactic- people need to be as clear as possible. Just tell her to get the fuck out of there and leave you alone. And when I say "you", I actually mean both of you (the couple). Maybe even the (white) guy alone.

*nods* That's my Mira.

@RVCBard

Hold on. Waitasec. I thought WE were supposed to be jealous of THEM - so jealous, in fact, that it's believable that we'd walk around carrying cups full of acid to throw on their faces. Because we're so jealous.

That's another thing. How come WW don't talk about the venom they spew about BW with WM? They'll dedicate not a page, or a post, but an entire forum to the supposed wrath of BW, but NOT ONCE will even one of them say, "Hey...maybe we shouldn't be such shitheads towards BW when we see them with WM."

It's the Pedestal Factor (cue oncoming post). WW want to be on the Pedestal for all men, even the ones they don't want and reject in overwhelming numbers. White chicks didn't care so much about Rain until they saw him shirtless, ripped, and starring opposite a black woman. I've been a Trekkie literally since birth and white chicks were largely into Kirk - not Spock - until S/U blazed screens in 2009...and Nimoy said he was "jealous" about it.

Ironically, I tend to blame men more on this because they encourage Pedestal Thinking without stopping to realize that it will eventually come back to bite them in the ass.

Fashion Tip from Moi: if you're a BW out with a white guy and tries to pull the ABC After-School special "just ignore them bullshit", end the date. Immediately.

Consider it a major red flag. The last time I was out with a white guy and something like this happened, I asserted myself and it felt damn good. He apologized, took me to an altogether different bar, and stated he owed me another drink.

I've been writing my novel, (officially) graduating and getting annoyed by the lack of jobs. In short, a mess. (But hey, at least I'm writing again!)

But I've been paying close attention to your blog... I just didn't comment. I am sorry.

How come WW don't talk about the venom they spew about BW with WM?

I've never been in such a situation, but I believe you're right: white women don't talk about it. Because all of them are, you know, nice & polite people. And black women are rude and nasty. Imagine, some of these black women even see themselves as equal to white women, instead of accepting the place of a black friend-sidekick, who is there solely to comfort the white girl and tell her how beautiful and wonderful and nice and speshul she is!

@ MiraShe is a first generation Ukranian-Canadian. Came to Canada when she was twelve from Lvi.

They do eh? Funny you should mention that.

From what I understand about her background her father is a smuggler. An occupation he brought with him across the Atlantic and doesn't get along well with her mother. Her mother is a store clerk and tried to keep him away from her because she thought he was a bad influence on her and her sister.

Him and her mother didn't get on well, but she spoke mostly favorably of her father despite his obvious absence from her life. (long story but I met her at the Covenant House in downtown Toronto)

I always thought that had a lot to do with it.

Granted I met the mom when I went with her to help her get her passport and SSI card from what she led me to believe was a project, coming from the Bronx it looked like a regular old apartment complex but to her that was "the Hood"(She was too scared to go by herself) The mother was really nasty. She said if I hadn't gone her mom would've hit her and they just went back and forth in Ukrainian until she went back in the house and gave her the documents. Told the poor kid (In english) she was "Just like her no good father." and sent her back to the streets presumably ( didn't know/ or ask where she was staying, girl was 17 at the time) I actually don't know where she's at now either, she had some drinking/weed, guy problems.(I found out a male friend of hers hit her, he did it in front of me, got his ass whooped by my friends who were around. She stayed away but went back to him and we didn't talk after that.)

I miss her terribly! She was so unbelievably sweet, and funny and smart, just going through some ish.

Ironically, I tend to blame men more on this because they encourage Pedestal Thinking without stopping to realize that it will eventually come back to bite them in the ass.

EXACTLY! RIGHT ON THE DAMN MONEY! And they complain about WWT but they encourage it because they constantly need their egos stroked. They like to be manipulated! They expect me to tolerate doucheness and expect you to cry and I'm just like, " Well actually...I don't care, and your friend that looks better than you, he's been chatting me up behind your back so....Dueces!

Ironically, I tend to blame men more on this because they encourage Pedestal Thinking without stopping to realize that it will eventually come back to bite them in the ass.

EXACTLY! RIGHT ON THE DAMN MONEY! And they complain about WWT but they encourage it because they constantly need their egos stroked. They like to be manipulated!

I think I even said that at that now-defunct site that some White guy set up supposedly to knock WW of their pedastals. I told them that as much as they "complain" about WW's antics, they happily put up with and support them and even view them as quintessentially feminine. Meaning if you're a woman who doesn't engage in such passive-agressive manipulation you're somehow less feminine, more manly and therefore not deserving of the chivalrous behavior they bestow on those women. They shelter and caretake those women, so what are they whining about?

I'm of the mind that if you do not like someone's behavior, you do not do things that encourage it, including continuing to give them succor in response. If you hate WW's behavior so much then don't date or marry them. There are literally billions of other women in the world for you to be with. But as long as you stay hugged up underneath them and treat dating non-White women, especially BW, as if it were a romantic death sentence, I don't wanna hear SHIT from you about how badly WW treat you.

I cannot tell you how many times I've confronted WW on the whole "BW are jealous of us and of our Great Forbidden LUV with BM" spiel with how shitty so many WW have treated me for pairing with non-BM and how that declaration was always met with silence or feigned ignorance that even occurs. Basically they want to pretend they don't do dirt, that it's ALLL us evil, jealous, hateful, ugly nigger bitches.

One thing I have noticed, and I do not know if anyone else will agree, is that a lot of people want to say someone is racist if they do not date outside of their race. Frankly, I think people should date who they are attracted to, and if all of their partners happen to be the same race as they are, maybe that has nothing to do with racism. Now, in some cases, yes, it DOES have to do with racism, but I think when you are talking about intimate relationships it is far better to date within your own race than to date someone outside your race to "prove" that you are not a racist. I do not know if that made any sense. And, also, truthfully, who would want to date someone who is not attracted to you for whatever reason?

Also, I cannot help noticing that there are some (white) people who DO date outside of their race BECAUSE they are racist. I mean really, how many white men and white women do we all know who date interracially because of stereotypes they perceive as applying to all members of a certain race? I hate to say it, but I think the vast majority of white women who date IR do it based on racist assumptions, and many of the white men I have met who expressed an interest in IR relationships have looked upon it as a sexual adventure as well.

I am saying this as a white woman who dates Black men, and I will be the first to admit when I FIRST started doing so, a lot of my "attraction" was based on certain stereotypes... in other words I wanted someone I perceived to be a "thug". Since then, I have grown A LOT, and now date based more on political/moral views and simple attraction, then on the bigoted idea of wanting a "bad boy".

Anyway, my whole thing is this... you cannot have a healthy interracial relationship if you want to spew that whole "love is blind" bullshit. Because honestly, if you do, you are going to end up in a really bad situation. If a white person with a Black partner is not fully invested in fighting racism ON A GLOBAL SCALE (and NOT JUST as it relates to their specific love interest at the time) than they should not be involved with a Black person at all. Love does not conquer all.

If there is anything I despise it is someone who dates outside of their race but feels no need to get involved in the politics of fighting racism, and who acts as if race plays no part in their relationship, who sees their partner as an "exception to the rule" and thus feels that it is OK to keep racist ideology intact.

I apologize if anyone is offended by me commenting as if IR relationships are ONLY about Black and white, but that is what I have experience with and what is specifically addressed in this post.

One thing I have noticed, and I do not know if anyone else will agree, is that a lot of people want to say someone is racist if they do not date outside of their race. Frankly, I think people should date who they are attracted to, and if all of their partners happen to be the same race as they are, maybe that has nothing to do with racism.

But that's the thing, though. White men have no problem fucking Black women. It's wanting to make love to us, wanting us as girlfriends and wives and mothers of their legitimate children that's the issue.

"If there is anything I despise it is someone who dates outside of their race but feels no need to get involved in the politics of fighting racism, and who acts as if race plays no part in their relationship, who sees their partner as an "exception to the rule" and thus feels that it is OK to keep racist ideology intact."

*This* Well said. The minute someone does the 'colourblind' bs, or regards their non-white partner as some kind of special exception to the rule (since whites are very skilled at contradictory compartmentalisation) they are living in ignoreland. If they have no kind of broader political understanding or commitment to their partners and children's beyond their own comfort and immediate concerns; if they aren't grown up to get past sugary fairytales like "love conquers all"? Then forget about it.

@Witchsistah:Absolutely. White men and women may complain about each other but in the main they are in cahoots with one another. They shore each other up by stoking and feeding each other's CCSS (chronic centre stage syndrome). Some white men also get a kick out of playing the knight errant, to the fair, weeping white maiden 24/7.

You know, I tend to keep quiet when I have nothing relevant to add to the conversation. This is one of those times where I should have something to say, right? But I have never dated a WM. Ok I tried once. And then the subtopic of WW comes in and I have no real-life WW friends. I haven't had a white female friend since...... *goes back into the archives* childhood. Please believe there is a very definite reason for that. Not always conscious, but definite.

How come WW don't talk about the venom they spew about BW with WM?But I can respond to this. White women genuinely believe that a) we're "not like that" - we're "sisters to all women". It's other women who do that. And b) we're color-blind, remember? Why, we don't ever feel malice toward another woman because of her skin color! That would be racist, and OMG we are not racist! *insert a helping of WW's indignation here*

Seriously. This is another one of those areas where WP just go into oblivion believing in the rainbows, sunshine and daises in our minds of what the world looks like. It's that simple. We don't see our venom as venom. In our minds, it's "the sad truth," much like that dumb heffa's email about what BW need to do to get BM to love her. It all comes from the same place in a WW's head. It never occurs to WP that even if we don't explicitly SAY something about a BW and WM together that perhaps the swooping in effect that occurs in fully ingrained in our minds that we are more "deserving" of this WM? There's no thought of possession over him based on the constant real-life and in-the-media indoctrination MIGHT have had just a *smidge* of an effect on our thought processes on this? Why, of COURSE not, we just "needed to tell him something" right? *eye roll*

RVCBard... Yes, that is an issue. And I do believe that many who have interracial sex ARE racist. What I was referring to in my comment is people who simply have never been with a Black woman, or a Black man. I have two sisters. Both are attracted to a certain "type" of man- basically the hard rock, long hair, lean, goth type of dudes. Now, neither of them have ever dated or had sex with a Black man. One sister is somewhat of a bigot, I will admit that. She has said that she is not attracted to Black men for various reasons, most of which are pretty messed up. But, the other sister is the most open minded person I know. She just has never dated a Black man because she has never met a Black man who was "her type". That was what I meant when I said sometimes not dating outside of someone's race is not necessarily racist. I wasn't referring to people who will have sex with someone of another race, but not date them, because that is OBVIOUSLY racist.

Victoria- I do not have white friends in general. I HAVE been friends with SOME white males as an adult, although none currently, but white females? Well, does my sister count, because she is the only one!

I actually TRIED being friends with a white female a few years ago. We said we were best friends, she used to come over to my house all the time, spend a few days. We were supposed to be really close, then all of a sudden one day, she decided she no longer wanted to speak to me. Her reason? Because I date Black men. I am not sure how that impacts her in any way, but apparently she could not handle me talking about anyone I was seeing because they happened to be Black. She said it was an "obsession" of mine, and she could not deal with it. So, either I had to talk about/crush on/date white men as well, or forget about being friends with her.

There are entire sites dedicated to bashing black women, insisting we're jealous of white women, that we hate ourselves and we'll throw acid on WW the first chance we get...not to mention a bunch of desperate white guys trotting out every shred of pseudo-science they can find to support these statements.

Ankhesen Mie - Well, from what I have read of Victoria's comments (and Elayna) those are two white chicks I could get along with... but I have never met similar women in my real life.

You know, it is interesting, because I have heard from people who tell me that I cannot possibly be an effective activist against racism if I do not socialize with white people, but my thing is, why should I spend time with people who think in ways that are so WRONG to me. Shoot, if I met a white person who was NOT an ignorant ass, maybe I would consider a friendship with them. But so far, my encounters with white people have been pretty bad once they realize my viewpoints on most issues.

I understand the concept of associating with white people in order to combat their racist thinking, and I do that, but that does not mean I have to become FRIENDS with them, does it??

I do have to say though, I have seen a few white women ONLINE who I could see myself being cool with if they were near me!

Joanna, I once felt like you and not that long ago. I thought there was no way I and a WW could EVER be friends based on my experiences with them. However, I have made tentative friendships with some WW here. What helped is that they were not all about their looks and needed me to shore up their self-esteem. They're also odd like me. They're into things that others aren't. They like to think and read and discuss. Oh, I still run into the former type of WW, but I don't let them get close to me. In fact, once I see those WW-tendencies emerge, I'll just write you off. So those women are not a part of my life.

@AnkhI think it's hilarious too. As for a guest post, I'm up for that. The irony of 2 WW who can't keep WW friends teaming up to post about it is kinda cool lol.

@JoannaI have heard from people who tell me that I cannot possibly be an effective activist against racism if I do not socialize with white. peopleI've gotten this as well - and yet we manage to, don't we? I strongly believe that WP need to experience rejection, not getting what they want, and not having their white tears responded to BY other WP in order to create a lasting anti-racist experience. Having someone hold their hands and "like them anyway" isn't going to make someone question themselves and make appropriate changes.

As for ever making a white friend, I'm not opposed to them outright. I've just been disappointed every single time. In school right now, I do find that the ones who don't "fit in" with the crowd are tolerable. I can talk to them in school. I had an African American lit class this semester and I was pleasantly surprised by some WP in there. It was clearly a place where after-class conversations could get VERY ugly. It gave me a little hope.

If this question is too personal feel free to ignore it. I'm just wondering if your upbringing was similar to mine. When you were very young, were you often in situations (in your neighborhood or at school) where you were one of few or the only WP around?

This may be a little biit off topic, but that picture from "The Princess and the Frog" reminds me of another insane Hollywood trend. It seems like the last thing Hollywood wants is to see a happy black couple on screen, and if there was one, at least one person would be light-skinned.

And people wonder why I don't go to the movies anymore.

Anyway, some years ago, a black woman, told me about this one experience she had on a train. She noticed a white woman with black man, and the white woman looked at her with daggers in her eyes. She even told the black woman "You mad because I got one of your men?" or something like that. It was a while ago. I was speechless when I heard that let alone pissed off.

This may be a little biit off topic, but that picture from "The Princess and the Frog" reminds me of another insane Hollywood trend. It seems like the last thing Hollywood wants is to see a happy black couple on screen, and if there was one, at least one person would be light-skinned.

Which is precisely why I chose it.

She noticed a white woman with black man, and the white woman looked at her with daggers in her eyes. She even told the black woman "You mad because I got one of your men?" or something like that.

What I don't get is chasing of drama? Why can't WW in that sitch just be civil and not jumped to conclusions, esp. when the BW hasn't said anything.

Victoria.... actually I grew up in an area that is 95% white. There were only a handful of Black students in my schools, but, since I was considered "undesirable" by white people, I did not have very many friends. The friends I DID have tended to be other "outsiders", which often included the Black students and the foreign born students. For some reason, white people seem to believe that people who do not fit certain physical standards are "untouchables" and I find less of that attitude with nonwhite people. So, when I went to college, I tried to make friends in my dorm, but was basically shut out by the white women. But, instead of spending my college years alone, I ended up spending a lot of quality time with POC. My best friends in college were Black women or women from other countries. It just seemed to me that POC were more open minded and judged me based on my character, not my appearance. Plus, I always had these political ideals that were not considered by most white people.

Dude, me neither. I can understand jumping to all sorts of conclusions in one's head, but to have it spill out of one's mouth at someone else is mind-bloggling.

Another catty thing WW do to BW is conveniently not notice if we're partnered. When The Man and I would go out, it was always WW servers who'd ask if we were together. It even happened a couple of times after we were married and both sporting wedding rings. Other servers seemed to be able to surmise that the kissing, cuddling, hand-holding interracial couple at booth 5 WERE actually together. But the WW servers always had trouble with that.

I also remember on a temp job I had, the White female supervisor claiming she didn't know I was engaged even though I wore my engagement ring regiously. I looked at her like, "You ain't seen this ring on my left hand?" I'm not saying I got the Hope diamond mounted on there. But a three diamond ring on a gold band on my dark fingers stands out. It's usually the WW who mistake other WW's class rings for engagement rings that can't seem to see one on a BW's hand.

@Student,

The WW you described, who almost got that Black student kicked out of school due to sheer jealousy on their part will be the same ones who'll get a Black woman FIRED from her job. I know because I was always that BW. It's the main reason I don't work now. If I could get a job with NO WW on it, I'd happily work. But it got to the point where I could not even THINK of a career because I couldn't keep a job around jealous, bigoted, insecure WW, forget about actually getting a promotion.

I think another thing I said on that anti-WW pedastal site was that if WM were SERIOUS about dismantling the pedastal, one of the main things they can do is stick up for WoC on the job. Usually these WM are these women's bosses and supervisors. If they know that a group of catty WW are gunning for a WoC simply because she can out-compete them, it's up to that boss to squash their bs. But as long as the WM on the job bow to these women's whims, they should not be surprised if shade gets thrown at them.

So much stuff to respond to, but it's the last week of classes so I'll have to hold my tongue for now.

I can't imagine talking smack simply because someone looked my way.

This. I hate that "us against the world" bullshit. If you are walking around waiting for people to say stuff everywhere you go, you probably have a persecution complex, not a group of "haters". (Can we be done with that word? "Overused" is an understatement.)

Oops my bad, I was trying to answer Victoria's question, sorry for the extra verbiage! Didn't mean to get sidetracked there. Victoria, if you would be interested in knowing more about me, there is a contact button on my blog, would love to hear from you!

@ JohannaCome to think of it my ex boyfriend didn't have any white friends either. And he told me that he dated like one white girl. For the same reasons you talk about. His polish friends would call him "Pacino" when he would get dressed to go out to the club in Brooklyn.Him: have you ever hung out with a black person, or even talked to one?Them: Well no...but I...Him: Then shut the fuck up you stupid fucking polak!All his friends were black or hispanic. And he spoke spanish/french/portugese/italian. The guy at his corner store didn't even know her was polish until he spoke it in front of him. He just assumed he was like Aregntinan or some kind of Latino because that was all he hung around with, even though there were some polish people in the neighborhood. He avoided them.

I'm gonna need you to go back and reread what I wrote then read what you wrote. You're making an inference that I didn't state. I did state exactly what I meant. a) I am not opposed to white friends. b) I do not have any because c) I have been disappointed SO many times that I do not attempt to forge these friendships anymore.

It's really not that "unusual." I have standards. If any of friends of color engaged in racist talk, I wouldn't want to spend time with them either. I won't go into my personal life here, but let's just say this isn't a preference I grabbed out of the air or just to be "different."

I'm not sure if this is what jas0n meant, but I got a bit of a wtf from that too, based on the fact that there is something slightly hilarious about a white person complaining about other white people's racism. A lot of personal strife occurred on that other site we don't talk about based on that other white people can be so racist' mindset.

While I can see why both you and jas0n have raised eyebrows over that comment, I want to clarify that my comments are not "complaints" about "other" WP. And I do not think for a second that I'm in a position where I can partake in the "see what they do" comments. I can point things out about WP *because* I'm white and I've been wherever they are. In different ways, I'm still there. The problem I encountered with the original post was when I wanted to show or confirm the white perspective about what white females say about BW and WM - I had no frame of reference. I don't just not have white friends or not date white men because I'm turned off by their racist comments - but they are also turned off by me. I've lost friends because I talk about race the way I do. I didn't have a white guy express attraction to me until I wasn't associated with my friends of color so much (after having children early in my life distanced us). It's really not ALL about how my standards won't allow for these friendships - a lot of it has been outright rejection.

yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. Not so much the "complaining about" part. I mean, If your expressing disapproval of something racist that's a complaint. I do that and will continue to do so.

But your right I think we (WP) definitely all have to keep that "other white people" mindset in check. If I found myself unable to stomach the company of other WP I know that there would be a certain level of self-satisfaction that would go along with that. I would have to consider myself quite different and special. In reality I think even if I'm fighting racism actively i'm still benefiting from it 10 times as much. So i'm always going to be "other white people" no matter what and must accept that.

@ VictoriaI'm not saying it's like that for you though. I realize I don't know you or your life story. Maybe all the WP around you happen to suck. Who you hang out with is your business of course.

This made me sad, hearing about these WW's shameful behavior. I'm happy when I see a BW/WM couple, and I'm a WW. I'm curious if this is more regional, ie, East Coast & the South where WW are throwing so much shade? I live in the Bay Area (CA) and it seems almost everybody is rainbow dating here! But it still makes me happy to see more BW *dating out* as they are still the fewest that I see in IR's, generally. Actually Asian men might be the smallest percentage, but that's another topic! No shade from me ladies, just smiles :)

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