If Blizzard were to balance classes around 95% of the playerbase, all specs would be a 1 button rotation with no special resource to manage. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to play that game even if I didn't have 13/13 HC.

The funny part is that they constantly ask people to link or prove via logs on dps. But yet they will not release their internal logs that they use because "people will spend too much time trying to disprove our log system". Double standard are awesome.

I can't wait to tweet GC or Lore when we get mid patch buff because of their shitty testing.

player base are the testers - blizz is outsourcing

my workaround to this constant class nerf dance blizz does every patch/xpan - diversity in toons, and always have a mage

If Blizzard were to balance classes around 95% of the playerbase, all specs would be a 1 button rotation with no special resource to manage. I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to play that game even if I didn't have 13/13 HC.

i think you can get close to balance with 2 buttons, just check out this cool game

Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

You didn't get a "+x% damage to ability X", but nearly everyone else got nerfed more than you. Of course this tests were done without reforging except for enhancers, we might see some of those speccs losing less because of regemming/reforging. I actually don't know how much those speccs gain via optimizing gear or specs. I suspect that so many dk buffs lead to them having a clear buff, but i don't know.

You didn't get a "+x% damage to ability X", but nearly everyone else got nerfed more than you. Of course this tests were done without reforging except for enhancers, we might see some of those speccs losing less because of regemming/reforging. I actually don't know how much those speccs gain via optimizing gear or specs. I suspect that so many dk buffs lead to them having a clear buff, but i don't know.

Those numbers are complete bullshit, though. Hunters, 4% damage loss? Remember that we got "buffed" with arcane shot (/main-shot buff) + stampede (supposed to be an overall buff even with the removal of readiness). Yet in BiS gear, I lose 15K out of 230K dps. Thats not 4% - thats 6.5%. And that is from a "neutral" level. As we were "buffed" with the new figures, that means that our loss is atleast around 10%, just like the other casters are.

Make no mistake - sure, your caster meta values are going down as a direct effect of the RPPM nerf. But hunters have both Rapid Fire and Focus Fire directly affecting the RPPM atm too, which is a far bigger amount of haste and uptime than your meta. It makes no sense that it would be a bigger loss for casters than for us in that regard.

Make no mistake - sure, your caster meta values are going down as a direct effect of the RPPM nerf. But hunters have both Rapid Fire and Focus Fire directly affecting the RPPM atm too, which is a far bigger amount of haste and uptime than your meta. It makes no sense that it would be a bigger loss for casters than for us in that regard.

I think he refers to the double nerf to the caster meta. Nerf in uptime, as the meta itself will procc less since it is affected by the RPPM change. And nerf to all other RPPM effects, that were boosted by the metagem haste. Tho FF and RF had still bigger impact in RPPM.

I really do think Blizz wants us mid/low Dps to cut down our representation. That's the heart of the problem here. If the hunter population pool continues to be high compared to other classes, then those other classes will get attention. Just look at locks for example. Certainly in ToT they made it essential for pretty much every encounter to bring a lock. Perhaps by putting us in a shit spot Blizz think they will cull the hunter population but I think they are sadly mistaken. Hunter population will continue to be high due to alts, soloing, PvP and so forth and aslong as that continues Blizz will just *shrugg* and say, " Well many people are still playing hunters so hunters are fine, lets focus on the classes lowly populated". I'm stumped to find a solution to this as it fucks it up for those who have 13/13 hc like myself and want to be competitive at high end raiding.

I really do think Blizz wants us mid/low Dps to cut down our representation. That's the heart of the problem here. If the hunter population pool continues to be high compared to other classes, then those other classes will get attention. Just look at locks for example. Certainly in ToT they made it essential for pretty much every encounter to bring a lock. Perhaps by putting us in a shit spot Blizz think they will cull the hunter population but I think they are sadly mistaken. Hunter population will continue to be high due to alts, soloing, PvP and so forth and aslong as that continues Blizz will just *shrugg* and say, " Well many people are still playing hunters so hunters are fine, lets focus on the classes lowly populated". I'm stumped to find a solution to this as it fucks it up for those who have 13/13 hc like myself and want to be competitive at high end raiding.

the problem is that they can't cut down population that way. Hunter is popular because it is the more noob friendly class and performs very well compared to the rest of the casters on lower gear. for the majority of the playerbase hunters are great, not only fine. In the average 12/12 normal guild hunters are beating locks and mages easy. Also there's no way to buff hunters so they can be competitive in cutting edge raiding without buffing them also in the lower gear levels. anyway you buff hunters in their current design, you will be buffing them all across the board, and suddenly they will be competitive on high end, but terribly OP on the low end, were the majority of the playerbase is.

Also if it would be the case that blizzard says "ok, lets put hunters on line with the rest of pures" that can't simply be achieved by number tuning. If they try to balance us in a way that we are on par or even a bit superior on raw damage (ST fight, sim type) we will be utter crap on any AoE/multidot scenario. If blizzard decides to bring us on par with casters on AoE/multidot bosses, they would need to buff A LOT some spells that we already use on ST, making us too high on ST fights also. The only room they have to buff us on multidot is BA and SrS, and they have been reluctant to remove the CD from BA for the whole expansion.

So in the end, there's no way under the current design to balance us all across the board without screwing the top or the bottom. So while hunters are doing good for the majority, there will be no balance.Also as long as hunters are that easy to play and perform good enoguh, there will be a lot. The same way they reworked locks to increase its population, they should rework hunters to DECREASE it, giving hunters unique specs and increasing the skill cap a lot, while updating it's mechanics to the current raids design. That way a lot of those that have hunters just for the sake of playing legolas would be on even ground with mages, locks, sps or boomkins, and playing their class because they like it as a whole, not because it resembles something they saw on TV.

the problem is that they can't cut down population that way. Hunter is popular because it is the more noob friendly class and performs very well compared to the rest of the casters on lower gear. for the majority of the playerbase hunters are great, not only fine. In the average 12/12 normal guild hunters are beating locks and mages easy. Also there's no way to buff hunters so they can be competitive in cutting edge raiding without buffing them also in the lower gear levels. anyway you buff hunters in their current design, you will be buffing them all across the board, and suddenly they will be competitive on high end, but terribly OP on the low end, were the majority of the playerbase is.

Also if it would be the case that blizzard says "ok, lets put hunters on line with the rest of pures" that can't simply be achieved by number tuning. If they try to balance us in a way that we are on par or even a bit superior on raw damage (ST fight, sim type) we will be utter crap on any AoE/multidot scenario. If blizzard decides to bring us on par with casters on AoE/multidot bosses, they would need to buff A LOT some spells that we already use on ST, making us too high on ST fights also. The only room they have to buff us on multidot is BA and SrS, and they have been reluctant to remove the CD from BA for the whole expansion.

So in the end, there's no way under the current design to balance us all across the board without screwing the top or the bottom. So while hunters are doing good for the majority, there will be no balance.Also as long as hunters are that easy to play and perform good enoguh, there will be a lot. The same way they reworked locks to increase its population, they should rework hunters to DECREASE it, giving hunters unique specs and increasing the skill cap a lot, while updating it's mechanics to the current raids design. That way a lot of those that have hunters just for the sake of playing legolas would be on even ground with mages, locks, sps or boomkins, and playing their class because they like it as a whole, not because it resembles something they saw on TV.

I agree with what you are saying, hunters do need a revamp although skill cap of hunters right now depends on the player. The problem is an average hunter can do decent Dps, a good hunter can do just a little more, this is down to the design of the class with so much damage coming from autoshots and white pet melee hits. To play a hunter properly does require a high skill cap, it's not as rewarding as say other classes, that's the problem. I'm also talking about the "now", I agree we need a revamp but that won't come till 6.0, till then it would be nice for high end hunters to be able to compete with other classes. Sadly I feel we are getting the DS treatment all over again.

Blizzard has to balance around the top players if they want WoW to be competitive. This whole argument about balancing around top players has been discussed at length for as long as I can remember for almost all online competitive games. Just look at LoL or HoN. The makers of those games can't balance around the middle-pack players without making the game a joke. What do you think would happen if Blizzard started balancing SC2 around Bronze players. I'm sure that would result in very fun competitive play.

Also, I would put that number closer to the top .5%, not 5%.

They balance around both average and elite skill levels. Average players can do good dps, sometimes great dps by doing the priorities correctly. Excellent players will coordinate cooldown, trinket and potion usage together for the maximum possible DPS.

If I forgot to refresh serpent sting during a proc/pot usage and it caused my DPS to be less than a tank then the class would be broken. The balance is allowing me to earn that extra DPS if I have the skill to do so.

the problem is that they can't cut down population that way. Hunter is popular because it is the more noob friendly class and performs very well compared to the rest of the casters on lower gear. for the majority of the playerbase hunters are great, not only fine. In the average 12/12 normal guild hunters are beating locks and mages easy. Also there's no way to buff hunters so they can be competitive in cutting edge raiding without buffing them also in the lower gear levels. anyway you buff hunters in their current design, you will be buffing them all across the board, and suddenly they will be competitive on high end, but terribly OP on the low end, were the majority of the playerbase is.

Also if it would be the case that blizzard says "ok, lets put hunters on line with the rest of pures" that can't simply be achieved by number tuning. If they try to balance us in a way that we are on par or even a bit superior on raw damage (ST fight, sim type) we will be utter crap on any AoE/multidot scenario. If blizzard decides to bring us on par with casters on AoE/multidot bosses, they would need to buff A LOT some spells that we already use on ST, making us too high on ST fights also. The only room they have to buff us on multidot is BA and SrS, and they have been reluctant to remove the CD from BA for the whole expansion.

So in the end, there's no way under the current design to balance us all across the board without screwing the top or the bottom. So while hunters are doing good for the majority, there will be no balance.Also as long as hunters are that easy to play and perform good enoguh, there will be a lot. The same way they reworked locks to increase its population, they should rework hunters to DECREASE it, giving hunters unique specs and increasing the skill cap a lot, while updating it's mechanics to the current raids design. That way a lot of those that have hunters just for the sake of playing legolas would be on even ground with mages, locks, sps or boomkins, and playing their class because they like it as a whole, not because it resembles something they saw on TV.

Exactly. The problems were even graver in the last addons, with fixed AP values instead of %-based ones.
Examples:
- Begin of Cataclysm: SV was just better than everything else in dungeon blues. Even with some raidgear it was still ahead. But with ful nh gear it was already on par with many other classes - still it was nerfed, because at that time not that many players had that gear. Which made it quite weak compared to other classes (I'd say still competitive though).
- Begin of Wrath: Naxx trash volley anyone? And for hard bosses (e.g. Sarth3d) you could go BM for dual BW. Both got nerfed / fixed quite fast, because in average gear it was too strong. And then, at Anub (ToC), they had to buff volley again because the scaling was just bad compared to other classes.

My point: As long as they don't fix the scaling across the board, there will always be some classes worse for progression. As a bad scaling class, hunters will be there, and that won't change - till they fix the scaling, or till they're ok with the average hunter doing more dps than the average *insert good scaling class here*.
And I think that differences in scaling outweigh the differences in player skill - on average. Means, that I don't think that bad a bad hunter does only 60% of his dps, but a bad warlock (in player skill both equal) does only 40% because of the "harder" class.

Those numbers are complete bullshit, though. Hunters, 4% damage loss? Remember that we got "buffed" with arcane shot (/main-shot buff) + stampede (supposed to be an overall buff even with the removal of readiness). Yet in BiS gear, I lose 15K out of 230K dps. Thats not 4% - thats 6.5%. And that is from a "neutral" level. As we were "buffed" with the new figures, that means that our loss is atleast around 10%, just like the other casters are.

Just simmed T15 hc hunter BIS for PTR and Live on current PTR build. Didn't do any optimization.

I just simmed your character and it dropped from 235400 to 235000 DPS (Survival).

I believe some hunters do not understand that not getting nerfed + every one getting a 10-15% nerf is a buff at least compared to all other ranged.

And that's why hunters are so strong in PTR testing and this is why hunters can't get buffs. They would be completely unjustified currently.

It isn't hard to come close to max potential on any class if you've been playing the game long enough once you're used to a fight's mechanics. It is hard however to find 10 to 25 people who are all maxing their potential on their character and get them to all work together well enough to clear heroic modes.

Way more than 5% of the wow raider population are heroic raiders. Wowprogress shows around 17% of the guilds who've downed a boss in ToT have downed Heroic Iron Qon. That's 17% of the raider population who is at least 4/13 or 5/13 heroic.

That's how it looks in LFR TOT. They just can't ignore those raidsizes as there are far more LFR Raiders than Highend Raiders.

I agree that changes would be good, but they would have to come at the costs of more difficult gameplay. As long as "bad" hunters perform sooooo good, buffs aren't fair to everyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Orcindauh

Way more than 5% of the wow raider population are heroic raiders. Wowprogress shows around 17% of the guilds who've downed a boss in ToT have downed Heroic Iron Qon. That's 17% of the raider population who is at least 4/13 or 5/13 heroic.

That's now, after getting cloaks and being totally overgeared.

And it's now like hunters suck in heroic raiding. They just aren't too strong either.

Just simmed T15 hc hunter BIS for PTR and Live on current PTR build. Didn't do any optimization.

I just simmed your character and it dropped from 235400 to 235000 DPS (Survival).

I believe some hunters do not understand that not getting nerfed + every one getting a 10-15% nerf is a buff at least compared to all other ranged.

And that's why hunters are so strong in PTR testing and this is why hunters can't get buffs. They would be completely unjustified currently.

http://femaledwarf.com/ use that instead of the inaccurate garbage that is the simulationcraft tool for hunters. For me in current gear, it shows:
BM: 245K-> 232K (AKA 5.3%.).
This is AFTER the fact that we were supposed to be buffed - instead, we are facing a 13K nerf while we were already horrible DPS-wise. Everyone else also got nerfed through RPPM changes, but they in turn got buffed otherwise (For example, DKs, shadow priests, warriors, rogues etc) or were already incredible overpowered to start with and did not NEED further compensation (For example, Mage, Warlock).
Note that the 4.7% loss is also with current gear, not calculating the new tier set, which was only worth a damn because of the fact that rapid fire was "real" haste, and thus increased our RPPM chance. It is now garbage compared to pretty much anything else, as it has been nerfed over and over again (started on 12 sec per arcane shot) because of it.

As for Surv, I am logged off in that spec because I have only done Meg this week and I cba with pet pathing fuck ups. But hey, shits n giggles, simulating Surv with FD:
232K DPS on live, 226K on PTR (or a 2.5% nerf). As you can see, Surv is affected a whole lot less than BM by the RPPM nerf - because surv does not have focus fire to enhance the proc chances of RPPM items. But its not the laughable 400 DPS you are getting as a result.
Either way, Surv doesnt even matter. Post-patch BM is the same strength as current-level Surv, so we will be sticking to BM to maximize what little damage we do, either way.

Meanwhile, guildy is telling me that his rogue is simulating at almost 270K in current gear with PTR changes.