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Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

There have been many debates on ODN about whether God exists. Atheists, while asserting that there is no reason to believe in God, have never proven God does not exist. And recent threads by atheists suggest they have a very real fear or even hatred of God.

Given that the choices for the origin of the universe are 1) that the universe is self-creating (which doesn't seem very logical) or 2) that it was created by a deity of some kind, why are ODN atheists so adamant that God does not exist? In a recent poll , twenty ODN atheists self-identified as believing there is very low or zero probability of God existing. Why did they not choose "50 percent" probablity, or even the relatively moderate "Lower than 50 percent but not very low" position?

Is it because they are theophobiacs, and can’t get past their own morbid fear or hatred of God? Would acknowledging that God may exist and simply has not made Himself known to them be psychologically impossible? Is it just less frightening to the subconscious for them to claim "There is no God" rather than admit "I don't know God"?

If so, what is it in their lives that caused this morbid fear or hatred of God, and prevents ODN atheists from recognizing that they are really agnostics? And why are they not willing to think logically, and admit that if they really do hate God, then they may actually believe that He exists?

So, I ask all ODN "atheists" to step forward and explain why you are so certain that God does not exist. And if you are not certain, how can you maintain the position of being an atheist instead of an agnostic?

Why are you certain that you are not actually theophobic, and repressing a true belief in God?

Last edited by evensaul; February 17th, 2011 at 03:04 PM.
Reason: Fixed embedded link to poll.

"If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

There have been many debates on ODN about whether God exists. Atheists, while asserting that there is no reason to believe in God, have never proven God does not exist. And recent threads by atheists suggest they have a very real hatred of God.

Given that the choices for the origin of the universe are 1) that the universe is self-creating (which doesn't seem very logical) or 2) that it was created by a deity of some kind, why are ODN atheists so adamant that God does not exist? In a recent poll , twenty ODN atheists self-identified as believing there is very low or zero probability of God existing. Why did they not choose "50 percent" probablity, or even the relatively moderate "Lower than 50 percent but not very low" position?

Is it because they are theophobiacs, and can’t get past their own morbid fear or hatred of God? Would acknowledging that God may exist and simply has not made Himself known to them be psychologically impossible? Is just less frightening to the subconscious for them to claim "There is no God" rather than admit "I don't know God"?

If so, what is it in their lives that caused this morbid fear or hatred of God, and prevents ODN atheists from recognizing that they are really agnostics? And why are they not willing to think logically, and admit that if they really do hate God, then they may actually believe that He exists?

So, I ask all ODN "atheists" to step forward and explain why you are so certain that God does not exist. And if you are not certain, how can you maintain the position of being an atheist instead of an agnostic?

Why are you certain that you are not actually theophobic, and repressing a true belief in God?

You've raised a pretty strong point here, even. I think you may be right.

I think that I have just been hallucinating reasons to not believe in God. I think that my lack of an ability to find any possible evidence whatsoever is a fault of my own personal cognitive impairment --one might even go so far as to call it a "mental handicap".

I mean, you're absolutely right. Why can't I find people like Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort, and Matt Slick persuasive, even though they're clearly not persuasive. I should be able to set aside their absurdities and understand that there's real content behind what they're saying. After all, why else would they be saying it?

Why can't I grasp the ontological argument for the existence of God? Or the transcendental argument for the existence of God? I think Matt Slick's right. It's because deep-down, I just really know that in spite of the logical fallacies, or maybe because of them, God really exists. You're right. Never mind the lack of a logically valid argument for the existence of God or lack of evidence for his/her/their existence,or the five years I've exhausted discussing this topic on ODN. I see now that those clearly couldn't possibly explain my lack of a belief in God.

It's not I don't find God to be an unpersuasive claim. It's really that I just am cognitively impaired and am actively repressing a belief in God because of some psychological dysfunction. The problem, clearly, lies in me. My only wish is that I were as cognitively functional as you clearly are, Even.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix

You've raised a pretty strong point here, even. I think you may be right.

I think that I have just been hallucinating reasons to not believe in God. I think that my lack of an ability to find any possible evidence whatsoever is a fault of my own personal cognitive impairment --one might even go so far as to call it a "mental handicap".

I mean, you're absolutely right. Why can't I find people like Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort, and Matt Slick persuasive, even though they're clearly not persuasive. I should be able to set aside their absurdities and understand that there's real content behind what they're saying. After all, why else would they be saying it?

Why can't I grasp the ontological argument for the existence of God? Or the transcendental argument for the existence of God? I think Matt Slick's right. It's because deep-down, I just really know that in spite of the logical fallacies, or maybe because of them, God really exists. You're right. Never mind the lack of a logically valid argument for the existence of God or lack of evidence for his/her/their existence,or the five years I've exhausted discussing this topic on ODN. I see now that those clearly couldn't possibly explain my lack of a belief in God.

It's not I don't find God to be an unpersuasive claim. It's really that I just am cognitively impaired and am actively repressing a belief in God because of some psychological dysfunction. The problem, clearly, lies in me. My only wish is that I were as cognitively functional as you clearly are, Even.

Despite that rather long sarcastic insult, I still think that Even is incorrect. Though I'd disagree on the meaning of "theophobic" in that, based on the roots of the words, it should only apply to an unjust fear of God(s). After all, a "phobia" is an irrational fear of something, so theophobia would be an irrational fear of God.

While certainly there are individuals that have an irrational fear of a god or gods, I don't think that it adequately describes anyone here. While many posts may have a hatred for God and/or his followers, hatred =/= fear (though sometimes it can, it doesn't by definition).

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by evensaul

There have been many debates on ODN about whether God exists. Atheists, while asserting that there is no reason to believe in God, have never proven God does not exist. And recent threads by atheists suggest they have a very real fear or even hatred of God.
...
So, I ask all ODN "atheists" to step forward and explain why you are so certain that God does not exist. And if you are not certain, how can you maintain the position of being an atheist instead of an agnostic?

I'm a weak atheist. Strong atheists assert that no god or gods exist. I simply do not have a belief that a god or gods do exist. I don't feel certain that God does not exist but I feel that its very unlikely. I think it would be great if God exists and as soon as evidence for His existence rolls in I'll be right on board with believing in Him but until that day comes, I will not believe in God for all the same reasons that I don't believe there is a unicorn in my closet - because I have no reason to.

I weary of the anti-God threads that have polluted the boards since I've joined this site a short time ago. It appears they are primarily the result of one person and I feel that he represents atheism about as well as the Westboro Church represents Christianity.

Your premise is wrong. Atheists don't hate or fear God because they don't believe in God. The reason behind this basic truth is self-evident.
Ironically, it is Christians whom are God-fearing.

Incidentally, although atheists don't hate or fear God, they often feel differently about God's fan club.

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by evensaul

...God, have never proven God does not exist....

It has been demonstrated that the specific gods that people use as a cause to action and opression are impossibly improbable and that such beliefs make these people delusional. I do not fear god, I fear crazy people. People who use religion for personal comfort I have no problem with, people who rule with religion can be dangerous.

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by evensaul

There have been many debates on ODN about whether God exists. Atheists, while asserting that there is no reason to believe in God, have never proven God does not exist. And recent threads by atheists suggest they have a very real fear or even hatred of God.

I think, if they hate anything at all, most atheists hate to base their moral decisions on a foundation built many thousands of years ago, in a distant land, and ignore all the human progress that we have made in the subsequence millennia.

Originally Posted by evensaul

Given that the choices for the origin of the universe are 1) that the universe is self-creating (which doesn't seem very logical) or 2) that it was created by a deity of some kind, why are ODN atheists so adamant that God does not exist? In a recent poll , twenty ODN atheists self-identified as believing there is very low or zero probability of God existing. Why did they not choose "50 percent" probablity, or even the relatively moderate "Lower than 50 percent but not very low" position?

We have access to a great deal of information about other human societies and they all share one trait - the need for deities. This proves that deities only exist in the human mind, either as an artifact of evolution or a good idea that we just cannot let go of because it has been so useful to get us to this point in history.

So, I'd contend that deities do exist but only in human brains. However, even then, there is a problem with the moral frameworks built around these mental constructions - they either have not been updated with a modern understanding of the world or they are slow on the uptake.

Originally Posted by evensaul

Is it because they are theophobiacs, and can’t get past their own morbid fear or hatred of God? Would acknowledging that God may exist and simply has not made Himself known to them be psychologically impossible? Is it just less frightening to the subconscious for them to claim "There is no God" rather than admit "I don't know God"?

The problem with the argument you put forward is that it also applies to yourself, with respect to gods that you don't believe in. You only need to substitute God with Brahman and the argument could equally be applied to you.

The crux of the problem with deities isn't the fact they don't exist but that they do exist but only in the minds of those that choose to believe in them.

Scientific results are true whether you believe in it or not. One only needs to revisit the story of Galileo Galilei and his subsequent house arrest for the heresy of saying that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not, as demanded by the Church, the other way around; to see what happens when reality meets dogma.

I think that when religion is proven wrong again and again on many matters about the physical world, one has to suspect that they are nothing but writings from humans a very long time ago. They, at least, had an excuse.

But more importantly, science changes when new facts come to light; religious dogma rarely does. So as society moves forward, a bigger and bigger hole is being dug as the religious demand that they're right. As time goes on it becomes ever more difficult for the religious to admit that they're wrong because in doing so it compromises their deities' infallibilities.

Originally Posted by evansaul

If so, what is it in their lives that caused this morbid fear or hatred of God, and prevents ODN atheists from recognizing that they are really agnostics? And why are they not willing to think logically, and admit that if they really do hate God, then they may actually believe that He exists?

For the most part, I don't think atheists care what religious people do in their private lives but the problem has been in recent times that the religious right is affecting public policies in ways that seem morally incorrect or even corrupt. If a religious text, inspired by a deity, produces humans that say that a homosexual may not visit his life partner on his death-bed, or another human that deliberately with-holds condoms, or an organization that doesn't properly deal with pedophiles then it does cause concern and outrage. One has to question why these decisions are being made even in the face of new knowledge.

The natural reaction is to attack the problem at the root - the deities. If they go away then hopefully, the reason to go against rational thinking will also go away.

So it's not really not about God per se but the results of basing one's decision making on texts obviously written by humans from a culture long ago and far away. This to me is what the New Atheism is all about - that it's not that God's don't exist, it's that people are making the wrong decisions.

Originally Posted by evansaul

So, I ask all ODN "atheists" to step forward and explain why you are so certain that God does not exist. And if you are not certain, how can you maintain the position of being an atheist instead of an agnostic?

Why are you certain that you are not actually theophobic, and repressing a true belief in God?

In summary, I believe that deities do exist but they only do so in human brains. I'm not theophobic because I think deities are a great idea and a quaint, if a bit primitive to modern eyes, way to focus our moral compass in a certain direction.

I can't argue against religion's efficacy in bringing people together and the comfort it brings to the lonely so I wouldn't begrudge anyone the benefits of this delusion.

I also agree with some of the moral teachings and enjoy some of the writings more than I do a dull philosophical text on the same matters.

However, I reserve the right to pick and choose what I believe in. Religions are increasingly further away from where we should be morally and the gap is getting bigger because Christians are too slow on the uptake and the secular world is moving forward at a greater pace.

And there is nothing to repress - I cannot condemn a man for having sexual relationships with another man because what they do is nothing to do with me. As repulsive as it is for me, homosexuality is more acceptable than what we are witnessing in the Catholic Church's incompetence at dealing with pedophiles. Even to this day, when the secular world has put in place punishments and measures and counseling and such to deal with the problem, the Catholic Church is not dealing with it properly.

I don't think it's hate that you're seeing, it's incredulity that we still have to use deities to justify our decisions when there are more effective tools available to us. It's like using an abacus instead of Wolfram Alpha - literally!

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

There have been many debates on ODN about whether God exists. Atheists, while asserting that there is no reason to believe in God, have never proven God does not exist.

It's not up to atheists to show that the non-obvious doesn't exist. It's up to theists to show that it does.

You point at a tree and say, "That tree exists." I reply "OK."

You point at a tree and say, "Atoms exist." Skeptically, I ask, "What do you mean by that?"

You don't simply blurt out, "Prove that they don't!" do you?

No, instead, you explain atomic theory to me (or give other thoroughly convincing reasons why the non-obvious is actually the case) and then, if I understand what you've said and believe it to be true, I give my assent.

It boggles the mind to know that there are so many theists out there who, like you, believe that "Prove that it isn't the case!" is an adequate response to the question "Why should I believe the non-obvious?"

And recent threads by atheists suggest they have a very real fear or even hatred of God.

How is it possible to fear or hate that which one doesn't believe exists?

Speaking only for myself, I hate the irrationalism that often manifests in the belief in gods. But do I hate or fear gods? No, I'm afraid I don't do that. I don't hate Zeus or Satan or Jesus or witches or Shiva or any other imaginary being. I try to reserve my hate for things that really exist.

Given that the choices for the origin of the universe are 1) that the universe is self-creating (which doesn't seem very logical) or 2) that it was created by a deity of some kind, why are ODN atheists so adamant that God does not exist?

Are those the only two options for the origin of gods, too? That is, that gods are either self-creating or were created by other deities?

If not, then why are those the only two options for the origin of the universe?

If something has always existed (as I assume you believe is true about your particular god) then why couldn't that something be the universe in some unknown (and perhaps unknowable) pre-Big Bang form.

In a recent poll , twenty ODN atheists self-identified as believing there is very low or zero probability of God existing. Why did they not choose "50 percent" probablity, or even the relatively moderate "Lower than 50 percent but not very low" position?

Because it's a ridiculous position to hold?

Is it because they are theophobiacs, and can’t get past their own morbid fear or hatred of God? Would acknowledging that God may exist and simply has not made Himself known to them be psychologically impossible? Is it just less frightening to the subconscious for them to claim "There is no God" rather than admit "I don't know God"?

No more frightening, I should think, that would be the thought, "I'm not personally acquainted with Ahura Mazda."

Speaking only for myself here, this is one atheist who would absolutely love to know a god personally -- Jesus, Zeus, Thor -- any of them . . . especially Athena, to whom I've always been kind of partial . . . provided that I was one of her favorites. Why wouldn't I want a god who loved me and wanted only what was best for me to exist???

As long as we're fantasizing here, I also wouldn't mind having a genie in a little bottle that would grant me three wishes.

Wouldn't you like that, too?

Too bad wishing something were true can't make it actually true.

If so, what is it in their lives that caused this morbid fear or hatred of God, and prevents ODN atheists from recognizing that they are really agnostics? And why are they not willing to think logically, and admit that if they really do hate God, then they may actually believe that He exists?

Go you one better. If those atheists hate a being that they consider to be "god," then those 'atheists' DO believe that god exists.

But if those 'atheists' believe that god exists, then they aren't really atheists, are they? No, then they are theists.

Only persons who believe gods exist could hate them, and people who believe that at least one god exists are called 'theists,' not 'atheists.'

So, I ask all ODN "atheists" to step forward and explain why you are so certain that God does not exist. And if you are not certain, how can you maintain the position of being an atheist instead of an agnostic?

Because agnosticism, when used as a third option for belief in the existence of gods, is a complete joke.

Why are you certain that you are not actually theophobic, and repressing a true belief in God?

Because knowing one's own beliefs is one of the few things that one can know with an extremely high degree of certainty.

As I just proposed above, a theist is much more likely to be theophobic (i.e., have an irrational fear of god) than is an atheist because the theist, at least, believes god exists and is, thus, capable of being feared.

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by evensaul

Given that the choices for the origin of the universe are 1) that the universe is self-creating (which doesn't seem very logical) or 2) that it was created by a deity of some kind, why are ODN atheists so adamant that God does not exist?

I think this is part of the problem.

If it's not very logical that the universe is self-creating, by your own admission.... how is it suddenly logical to have a self-creating thing inside of that universe?

If you interpret any arguments against your logic as "hatred"...... well, I'm sorry, but that's just being sensitive.

Now, as a non-theophobe (I claim agnosticism and actually resent the atheist moniker, although it's technically correct), I do notice a lot of mud throwing and assumed correctness on both sides of the issue. I usually don't get into it with theists, simply because I know how strongly those beliefs can run an I am likely wasting breath making an argument. But I do frequently go after strong atheists when they exhibit logical inconsistencies. I hold them to a higher standard, and since they are relying on logic to support their positions, I will pounce on any deviations I may perceive.

I've also been branded a theist for doing this, as well as other names in conjunction with the word "hate". But I don't have an irrational hatred of anybody (except, maybe, lefties ).

Religion is a fundamental belief. I'm not surprised "toes get stepped on" so often. It's the mental equivalent of calling someone's kids dumb and ugly.

The Signature Religion is the one true religion. I know this is true, because it says so right here in this signature.

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by evensaul

Given that the choices for the origin of the universe are 1) that the universe is self-creating (which doesn't seem very logical) or 2) that it was created by a deity of some kind, why are ODN atheists so adamant that God does not exist? In a recent poll , twenty ODN atheists self-identified as believing there is very low or zero probability of God existing. Why did they not choose "50 percent" probablity, or even the relatively moderate "Lower than 50 percent but not very low" position?

From what I've seen on ODN, most atheists here put the probability at very low, not zero. And they generally say that they view the lack of evidence that God exists to be the reasoning for the probability that God does not exist. I can only think of one person here who has argued God's nonexistence as a fact so I would not call that viewpoint typical of ODN atheists.

I personally am in the 50/50 camp, but I do understand the argument that most ODN atheists forward.

Originally Posted by evensaul

Is it because they are theophobiacs, and canít get past their own morbid fear or hatred of God?

Without evidence that this is so, I see no reason to conclude that this is the case. I've debated plenty of atheists here and while I still disagree with them in general, their positions are generally well-considered. They have not displayed a serious lack of reason so I cannot conclude that their arguments are based on something other than reason.

Originally Posted by evensaul

Would acknowledging that God may exist and simply has not made Himself known to them be psychologically impossible?

Again, the average ODN atheist does not believe that God existing is impossible, but just so unlikely that they feel justified in not believing in him.

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Thats an easy answer, no. I do not fear or hate things which do not exist. I understand that some people may not share that point of view, but to atheists God does not exist. Therefore we do not hate or fear Him. At least that is my point of view, I understand that some atheists may fear and hate God for whatever reason they may have.

OK, I admit it, I am a tooth-fairy-agnostic. No I am not having a laugh, that is actually a term that some atheists use. It is used to acknowledge that there is a probability of God existing however it is as low as the tooth fairy existing. I don't have any proof that the probability of God and the tooth fairy existing is the same, it is just a term that is used. So strictly speaking I am a tooth-fairy-agnostic, but I just shorten that into atheist.

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

I think the OP completely misses its target. It creates a giant Strawman.

ODN Atheists are not claiming that God is evil. They are claiming that there's no reason to believe that a god exists. Some go as far as to in fact claim that no god exists. Any claims in which they appear to say that God is evil are really claims that "the God believed by [insert some religion here] is evil". That's the context to read it in and that should be patently obvious. This is why I am concerned about the honesty of the OP's approach (or, alternatively, its maker's level of comprehension when reading atheist arguments; I don't mean to offend but that's the only reasonable conclusion I can think of - Evensaul doesn't understand what atheists are saying).

If the OP were correct, the Atheist would have to be saying "God doesn't exist in reality and he does evil things in reality". And that's not what ODN Atheists, to my knowledge, say.

The OP misunderstands (perhaps even deliberately) the arguments put forward by ODN Atheists. These can be divided into at least two branches:

1. Logical or scientific arguments against logical and scientific claims for the existence of a god or gods.

This argumentation includes rebuttals of claims that the existence of humans is evidence for the existence of a god. Or that the existence and the nature of the universe are evidence for the existence of a god.

2. Logical and moral arguments against moral claims for the existence or nature of a god or gods.

It is in rebutting this line of argumentation that Atheists may claim that some particular version (notably, due to the Christian majority of ODN theists, this will usually be Yahweh) of a claimed god is morally defective. They are not saying "there is a god and he's evil and we're scared of him". No way. What they are saying is "You believe in a god and claim that the god you believe in is morally perfect and that you derive your morals from him and yet the god you believe in is a cruel and evil character, way inferior in comparison with your own (and mine) morality. You must be kidding."

On another note, if I did believe that the Biblical God exists in reality, would I be scared? You bet! And I certainly wouldn't be saying anything against Him. The guy (again, in the context of the Judeo-Christian mythology and not in reality)*** throws people into lakes of fire, murders entire nations, whimsically creates plagues, lies and cheats. If I believed that this God existed, I'd be wishing I had never been born. And I'm not wishing I had never been born. I'm happy and smiling. Why? Because I don't believe that this God exists . And from my knowledge of ODN Atheists, I can say comfortably that this is pretty much how they all feel too.

***I had to add that in because otherwise I might get misquoted. "Ahah! Allo is saying that God throws people into lakes, so Allo must believe that God exists!"...and that's pretty much the tone of the OP. It's no different to those who frequently misquote Dawkins or Einstein or any of a number of folks. And the nagging question is: WHY.

Last edited by Allocutus; February 18th, 2011 at 07:09 PM.

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

"If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

I think the OP completely misses its target. It creates a giant Strawman.

ODN Atheists are not claiming that God is evil.

I don't see that in the OP at all. Can you quote where it says atheist think god is evil? I may have missed it.

What I do see is the OP talking about atheists hating God. But to say the OP misses the target because it says atheist are claiming that god is evil... is a strawman of the OP I think. Or maybe you or I am misunderstanding something.

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by MindTrap028

I don't see that in the OP at all. Can you quote where it says atheist think god is evil? I may have missed it.

What I do see is the OP talking about atheists hating God. But to say the OP misses the target because it says atheist are claiming that god is evil... is a strawman of the OP I think. Or maybe you or I am misunderstanding something.

The OP claims that "recent threads" involve atheists saying that they have a fear and/or hatred of God. I haven't seen any atheists saying that they fear God or that they hate him. All I've seen is claims that God is morally deficient. This is why I assume the OP is directed at those particular claims.

If I'm incorrect then I'm not to blame. The OP has not specified at all what particular claims it's basing itself on or what threads they are located in. It's very difficult to fight with an unidentified and invisible enemy.

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

"If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by ALLO

The OP claims that "recent threads" involve atheists saying that they have a fear and/or hatred of God. I haven't seen any atheists saying that they fear God or that they hate him. All I've seen is claims that God is morally deficient. This is why I assume the OP is directed at those particular claims.

He said that the threads suggest a fear or hatred for God. Not that the atheists themselves are claiming this fear or hatred for themselves, only that it is evident in the tone and approach of atheists especially in recent threads.

Originally Posted by ALLO

If I'm incorrect then I'm not to blame. The OP has not specified at all what particular claims it's basing itself on or what threads they are located in.

Well, no one is "blaming" you, what we need to focus on is communication and be sure we are talking about the same thing.

Talking past each other doesn't really forward the debate.

I'm not sure anyone has actually addressed the question raised in the OP.

Originally Posted by ALLO

It's very difficult to fight with an unidentified and invisible enemy.

recent threads by atheists suggest they have a very real fear or even hatred of God.

Aren't you essentially projecting your beliefs out onto others?

I assume you believe that atheists have cause to fear God? This would make it easy for you to perceive any objections on their part to 'his' ways as stemming from a fear or hatred that does not actually exist..

Quite frankly, I have known more religious people who fear and have anger for God than atheists.

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Nice OP, it's deffinetely going to help me clear up an argument I have made in the past ( though in a less clear sense).

My experience with the atheists of ODN is that they claim to be driven purely by logic and reason, and that without the empirical evidence to support the existance of a deity, they cannot believe in it because this existence relies on an act of faith; a belief in something that has not or cannot be proven.

The origin of the universe is unknown. We have several theories that are at least plausible, but none has been embraced as the deffinitive answer because none of the theories are flawless. Thus, for somebody to subscribe to the belief that the universe is self-created would require some measure of faith. Does this act of faith not defeat the entire purpose of hard atheism?

"I think when the history of this period is written, people will realize a lot of the decisions that were made on Wall Street took place over a decade or so, before I arrived in President, during I arrived in President."
Dubya

Re: Are ODN "atheists" theophobiacs?

Originally Posted by cdubs

Nice OP, it's deffinetely going to help me clear up an argument I have made in the past ( though in a less clear sense).

My experience with the atheists of ODN is that they claim to be driven purely by logic and reason, and that without the empirical evidence to support the existance of a deity, they cannot believe in it because this existence relies on an act of faith; a belief in something that has not or cannot be proven.

The origin of the universe is unknown. We have several theories that are at least plausible, but none has been embraced as the deffinitive answer because none of the theories are flawless. Thus, for somebody to subscribe to the belief that the universe is self-created would require some measure of faith. Does this act of faith not defeat the entire purpose of hard atheism?

You seem to be suggesting the following atheist reasoning:

1. I believe the universe has self-created.

2. Therefore there is no god.

If you can find such reasoning anywhere on ODN, please present it here. Link it. Otherwise, withdraw the claim. This is a . Naturally, even if you do find an example of such (quite flawed) reasoning, it would not be representative of ODN atheists. You'd have to do much more than that.

My experience with atheists is that they do not make such claims. Rather, they humbly agree that we don't know how the universe originated, we may never find out and there are various hypotheses about this process. And they leave it at that. It is the theists who have taken this a step further and patented for themselves a giant appeal to ignorance. Nothing new, nothing to get excited about.

Not only have I not seen such reasoning; the reasoning would be flawed. It would be flawed even if it were proven that the universe had self-created. A self-created universe is not necessarily a godless universe. A self-created universe could well be populated by thousands of gods and goddesses. Or just two. Or just one. Or seventy six. Your error here is based on your misintepretation of atheist argumentation. Atheists are not saying that the existence of natural explanations disproves the existence of a god or gods. Rather, they are saying that the existence of natural explanations defeats the use of ignorance as an argument for the existence of a god or gods. And this of course is not a concession (either by myself or by any other atheists) that ignorance is a valid argument for a god's existence in the first place. It is not. Appeal to ignorance is still a fallacy, even if the ignorance itself becomes subsequently replaced by knowledge of a natural explanation. The only difference is that in the former case, it is simply an appeal to ignorance and in the latter it's an appeal to ignorance based on an invalidated claim of ignorance.

He said that the threads suggest a fear or hatred for God. Not that the atheists themselves are claiming this fear or hatred for themselves, only that it is evident in the tone and approach of atheists especially in recent threads.

And? Where does that takes us? In order for the OP to have any merit at all, it would have to do the following:

2. Provide a solid argument that the tone of the post in question suggests that the atheist fears or hates God (argument). In doing so, he would have to exclude such simple linguistic tools as rhetoric.

The OP has done none of this. We are still talking about a non-event. No evidence or argument presented. We are just to assume that this is what atheists are doing.

Well, no one is "blaming" you, what we need to focus on is communication and be sure we are talking about the same thing.

Talking past each other doesn't really forward the debate.

I agree. And given the flawed OP, we can't know what we're talking about.

I'm not sure anyone has actually addressed the question raised in the OP.

That's because the OP is fatally flawed. It fails to tell us what it's talking about.

Throw some paint on it, that all ways works in the movies.

Trying to

Last edited by Allocutus; February 18th, 2011 at 09:18 PM.

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

"If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

2. Provide a solid argument that the tone of the post in question suggests that the atheist fears or hates God (argument). In doing so, he would have to exclude such simple linguistic tools as rhetoric.

The OP asks a question. It doesn't make a case.
It derives the validity of the question from the Linked poll (again.. some facts)

Really, all you need do to counter the question is to answer it in a non-self defeating way.

Originally Posted by OP

Is it because they are theophobiacs, and canít get past their own morbid fear or hatred of God? Would acknowledging that God may exist and simply has not made Himself known to them be psychologically impossible? Is it just less frightening to the subconscious for them to claim "There is no God" rather than admit "I don't know God"?

Originally Posted by ALLO

That's because the OP is fatally flawed. It fails to tell us what it's talking about.

False, it is because few have actually read the OP and perceived that it is asking some very basic questions. Instead, in your case, you thought the OP said something which it did not. I hope that has been cleared up sufficiently.

The op is not fatally flawed, the questions it asks are valid ones. Certainly there is a motivation for atheists to answer according to the way they did..but what ever could it be?

So the questions still stand, and there is no reason to think it not valid.
If you don't want to answer them.. that is fine. But don't pretend it is the OP's is flawed because it asks a question.

as Obama says.. "let me be clear".
The op's main question is this.

Originally Posted by OP

So, I ask all ODN "atheists" to step forward and explain why you are so certain that God does not exist. And if you are not certain, how can you maintain the position of being an atheist instead of an agnostic?

I know you have a reasoned answer, because you are a reasonable guy.
All you need do is present an answer to the actual questions asked.