There may appear people who, after my death, listen to the teachings of such a wonderful Mahayana sutra and gain faith. Know that such people will not fall into the unfortunate realms in the ages of the future.

Mahaparinirvana Sutra

Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!Manjushri-namasamgiti

Once you have developed full confidence in the power of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha to protect you from the suffering of the three lower realms and entrusted them with your spiritual care, your refuge is solid and you have truly become a practicing Buddhist.
If, however, your confidence in the Three Jewels weakens and doubts about their ability to protect you arise, you can no longer claim to be a true practitioner of Buddhadharma.

Dalai Lama Illuminating the Path, p. 85

Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!Manjushri-namasamgiti

HHDL wrote:Once you have developed full confidence in the power of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha to protect you from the suffering of the three lower realms and entrusted them with your spiritual care, your refuge is solid and you have truly become a practicing Buddhist.

(underlining mine)

Well so much for the Kalama Sutta! (Which ends with the Kalama people all taking Refuge in Sakyamuni anyway.)

You've got to admit that's so much nicer a definition for what constitutes a Buddhist than having to subscribe to a given set of doctrines.

Last edited by smcj on Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HHDL wrote:Once you have developed full confidence in the power of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha to protect you from the suffering of the three lower realms and entrusted them with your spiritual care, your refuge is solid and you have truly become a practicing Buddhist.

Well so much for the Kalama Sutta! (Which ends with the Kalama people all taking Refuge in Sakyamuni anyway.)

You've got to admit that's so much nicer a definition for what constitutes a Buddhist than having to subscribe to a given set of doctrines.

Yep, Refuge is not only the entrance to Buddhism, but it is the Path & the Goal too.

Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!Manjushri-namasamgiti

HHDL wrote:Once you have developed full confidence in the power of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha to protect you from the suffering of the three lower realms and entrusted them with your spiritual care, your refuge is solid and you have truly become a practicing Buddhist.

Well so much for the Kalama Sutta! (Which ends with the Kalama people all taking Refuge in Sakyamuni anyway.)

You've got to admit that's so much nicer a definition for what constitutes a Buddhist than having to subscribe to a given set of doctrines.

Yep, Refuge is not only the entrance to Buddhism, but it is the Path & the Goal too.

Now now now, that's a little esoteric on a public forum, don't you think?

To achieve a total awakening state of enlightenment requires developing faith, respect, and devotion to the buddhas, bodhisattvas, and enlightened beings. Without that development, one cannot achieve enlightenment.

Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche

Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!Manjushri-namasamgiti

The Highest Truth of the Buddhas
Can be understood only by faith,
Indeed, the eyeless one cannot see
The blazing disk of the sun. || 153 ||

Like the Vaiḍūrya stone, the purity in the mind
Is the cause of the Buddha's appearance,
And this purity of mind is intensified
By the irresistible faculty of faith. || 89 ||

But the wise one, whose intellect accepts the faith
In this exclusive sphere of the Buddha,
Becomes a receptacle of the whole collection of properties,
And, being possessed of the desire [to obtain]
The inconceivable properties [of the Buddha],
He surpasses the abundance of merits of all living beings. || 2 ||

Uttaratantra

Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!Manjushri-namasamgiti

The Highest Truth of the Buddhas
Can be understood only by faith,
Indeed, the eyeless one cannot see
The blazing disk of the sun. || 153 ||

That's really from Uttaratantra? I've gone through it and don't remember that.

It is in the 4th section on the Element, verse 153.

I guess I need to read it without falling into a hypnotic state and dismissing it as "blah blah blah". I do that with overly dry texts.

I've got a commentary by Thrangu R. titled, "The Uttara Tantra: A Treatise on Buddha Nature". Here is what he says about that verse:

As an ordinary person one cannot understand Buddha essence directly and therefore needs the help of faith to understand it. The buddha nature has been there from the very beginning and was never created by anyone. It is the spontaneously present jnana. An ordinary person cannot see this directly because his buddha nature is covered by impurities. He or she may be able to gain some indirect understanding of it by inference, but even this is hard to understand because it is in the domain of the inconceivable. For example, the sun sheds its brilliant rays all the time; as far as the sun is concerned, it never is obscured by anything. But a blind person will never see this sunshine. In the same way, the spontaneously present jnana has been there from the very beginning but it is hidden from ordinary beings who do not have the clear eyes of prajna to see through the thick darkness of ignorance. They must rely on faith in order to understand this buddha nature.

So faith is for the ordinary person that does not have "the clear eyes of prajna to see through the thick darkness of ignorance".

Thrangu goes on to verse 155:

Buddha nature is void and not void in a way. The buddha essence is devoid of any passing impurity because these are not an intrinsic part of it. On the other hand, the buddha essence is not devoid of the supreme qualities because the qualities are an inseparable part of the actual nature of the buddha essence.

Sorry, the Shentongpa-troll in me just couldn't resist that last part.

Following the virtuous path requires faith. Without faith, virtue cannot develop in one’s being. Thus, the Ten Dharmas Sutra says:
Virtuous qualities cannot grow
In a person without faith,
As a green sprout
Does not shoot from a burnt seed.

Gampopa

Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!Manjushri-namasamgiti

This is one of the reasons Ive stuck with Buddhism, There is a a method to the madness. There is a method, a very specific reason for it. Even if we don't understand why it works. 3 years ago I would of turned my nose up at faith like poison. These days im trying to remind myself it's just a tool.

The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

7-8. The benefits of faith are great merit, freedom from regret,
happiness, great joy, nondeprivation, firmness, improvement, direct
realization of the teaching, supreme attainment of the aims of self
and other, and swift superknowledge.

The benefits of arisen or present (faith) is great merit. (The benefit of) past
faith is freedom from regret, because there is no remorse. (The benefit) of the subjective
and objective (faith is) great happiness due to endowment with meditative
concentration. (The benefit) of (faith) developed by a spiritual teacher is nondeprivation.
(The benefit) of autonomous (faith) is firmness in faith. (The benefit) of
unerring, revelational, study-produced (literal, wishful, visionary, subvertible, and
adulterated faiths) is excellent progress. (The benefit of) the great (unadulterated
faith) is direct realization of the teaching. (The benefit) of individual (faith) is attainment
of one's own aims. (The benefit) of magnificent (faith) is highest attainment
of the aims of others. And the benefit of the good tendencies of the unobscured,
energetic, and provisioned (faiths) is swift superknowledge.

15. When the (bodhisattva) constantly generates great faith in the magnificent Dharma of the great noble ones, he develops the continual increase of vast merit and of (faith) itself, gaining spiritual greatness by means of such incomparable excellences.

Mahayanasutralamkara ch. 10

Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!Manjushri-namasamgiti

1. In the troubled ocean of three fears,
The worthy and unfailing refuge for the faithful
Is the Triple Gem renowned as a white parasol.
On entering the Teaching, we must first have trust in it.

2. Undeceiving refuge is itself the pledge to be
The basis of the path that leads to freedom and the vessel for its qualities.
Before embarking on it, therefore, we must understand
The qualities of both the Teacher and his Teaching.

3. The root of every good is faith itself,
And this is unpredictable in beings’ minds.
On meeting with a Teacher or on reading in the texts,
It floods the mind, the hairs upon one’s flesh stand up.

4. This first is ‘‘vivid faith.’’
It’s followed then by faith that’s ‘‘yearning,’’ ‘‘confident,’’ and ‘‘irreversible.’’
Of these four kinds, when taking refuge,
Faith is needed that, at cost of life and limb, is irreversible.

5. Four causes are there for the birth of faith.
Frequenting holy beings, keeping company with wholesome friends,
Remembering the Triple Gem, and thinking of the miseries of meaningless samsara:
Thence it is that faith comes into being.

Jigme Lingpa - Treasury of Precious Qualities vol. 1

Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!Manjushri-namasamgiti