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So, as the title says, I'm on the fence. Not quite sure what to believe anymore. I'm trying to look at my own actions objectively to see what I do when I'm not thinking about religion.

I don't come from a very religious household. My mother is Presbyterian, mu biological father was Catholic. We went to Presbyterian church every other weekend until I was ten and then we stopped going.

I try to look at my thoughts and actions and see what I think. What I've noticed is that when my religious friends talk about how fantastic God is, I think it's silly. When my friend who is extremely religious won't go into certain stores because of her Christianity, it irritates me. When every other post my grandmother makes on facebook is thanking God for something or other and posting "thank you JESUS" all over my wall it pisses me off like no other!

My fiance is atheist, but we're having a Christian wedding and I remember getting in the car after visiting with the officiant and saying "I dont really care about it, but having this prayer will make my religious family happy"

I guess I kind of answered my own question.

I still pray, but I think I only do it because it brings comfort.

I don't know, I'm just on the fence. I know nothing about atheism, although I frequent this subreddit.

If it matters, I'm in healthcare and so fully believe in science and It's advancements.

Here is the simplest answer I can give you. Despite what certain zealots might tell you there is absolutely no requirement to put yourself on a pedestal or go out and "proselytize" for atheism. Do what makes you happy, and whatever that is may take you some time to figure out.

For example, I am an atheist and do not believe in any kind of supernatural, however I do believe in a kind of pseudo karma as a part of my personal ethos. I do believe that karma exists, not as a spiritual or supernatural force, but instead as a social action reaction sequence. If someone is an asshole, eventually enough people hear about how he's an asshole, and proceed to act accordingly; likewise for particularity good and generous individuals. As such I emotionally get the benefit of the idea of karma (a metaphysical concept) in an entirely sociological form.

Many of the benefits of religion can come from the act of ritual, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with harnessing the power of ritual without the religion. For example you could choose to spend 10 minutes a day "meditating" not seeking nirvana, but instead simply calming yourself and thinking on how you want to be a better person today than you were yesterday, and make that a normal part of how you start everyone morning. This can preform the exact same role as the person who prays to a deity in the morning for the same results.

As for dealing with family and social awkwardness from being an atheist this is the best bit of wisdom I've come across. Unlike the faithful there is no such thing as being a "good atheist" only being a good person who happens to be an atheist. We don't have any particular doctrine or arbitrary set of rules we have to adhere to, which means we aren't obligated to get up in anyone's face and argue that they're right or wrong in how they live their lives. If you want to go out there and "fight the good fight" about the existence of god, or the value of religion so be it, but be aware you might lose friends and family for it, especially if you choose to be an aggressive asshole about it.

Now I don't know much about you, but I'm about to hit 30 and I've learned that family doesn't last forever, and that grandparents do unfortunately pass away, and I know that given the choice I'd gladly swallow my tongue about my atheism on facebook if it would give me another year with my grandmother who I loved, despite disagreeing with her on many things. When they're gone, they're gone, say what you need to say, but don't throw away your chances to spend time with your loved ones while they're still here on this earth with you. They think they'll have an eternity with you in heaven, if you don't think that as well, make sure to treasure every loving moment you can spend with them while they're here instead of spending it being angry about things if you're at all able to just let it pass without it grinding you down.

Sorry for the babbling btw, half asleep after a graveyard shift at work. Also best of luck, and congrats on the future wedding.

Thank you so much for your insight! It was very helpful! (And I understand about tired babbling. I've been up all night, literally ALL NIGHT, critiquing an article for my Research in Nursing class. I didn't finish it until after 5am and I had to be up at 630 so I didn't really see the point of sleeping. So yeah, I know the feels!)

/u/ellendar said what I basically wanted to say when I read your question. I will just add two "atheist wedding stories" from my own experience:

The first story involved friends of mine who got married on a beach in Hawaii. They talked with the officiant over the phone and everyone agreed that there would be no mention of God during the ceremony. Of course, when the officiant was actually doing the ceremony, he did it in his usual style, and brought God up quite a bit. I'm not sure if he forgot about the arrangement or if there was a breakdown of communication, but even though my friends were upset, they were still married at the end of the day (on a beautiful beach in Hawaii of all places).

The second story involved my wedding. My wife (who is very atheist) wanted her uncle (who is ordained) to marry us. She wasn't sure what to tell him about what he should say during the ceremony. I told her to just ask him to say whatever he thinks is appropriate. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. That is the great thing about being atheist, in my opinion. I don't have to be worried about my marriage not being valid in the eyes of some random God, just because of what words were spoken during the ceremony.

In the end, we had a very nice ceremony. Some religious words were spoken, but he kept it toned down because he knew we weren't into that sort of thing. Everyone was happy, and everyone continues to be happy to this day. That is what is most important in life.

I'm a believer in karma as well, I just had a really hard time explaining it to people in a way that didn't sound supernatural, because that's not how I view it. You put it very eloquently and it was EXACTLY the explanation I was looking for! Thank you!

Welcome to real life, where there isn't a magical father figure in the sky to make everything in to a fairytale. Unlike with religions I don't pretend there is some magical perfect system that no one escapes from. It is (I believe) a good way for a person to live their life however. Karma isn't something that happens to you, it's something you make happen every day, and hope that others do as well.

I think my point was there isn't anything like karma at all, even the one you were trying to explain. I live my life in a nonviolent honest way and it hasn't gotten me anywhere. Maybe thats just because I am bad at life who knows. And bad people steal people's retirement money and move to France and bang hot chicks all day. I got no answers for ya, but I am pretty sure there is no social karma, Darwinian or Magical.

I'm not sure I understand what it is that you're calling karma here, unless you're limiting its existence to a very narrow set of social circumstances.

Surely you'd acknowledge that there are sizable amounts of people whose lives are miserable despite their best efforts, right? Poverty alone accounts for this. Where does karma come into play for those people?

I understand you're not asserting anything supernatural, but if what you're saying essentially boils down to the idea that sometimes social actions have consequences, I would again question what it is that you're calling karma and why it needs that label.

I like what you said, and I'd like to elaborate on the proselytizing part. The funny thing about religion is that people put it in other people's faces sometimes. It's really annoying. If someone came to my door trying to sell me their god, I'd say "no thanks, have a good day."

Now, it's not like atheists go door-to-door trying to get people to relinquish their beliefs, but proselytizing is sort of human nature. I'm lucky enough, despite my somewhat redneck surroundings, to have several atheist friends that I get to hang out with pretty regularly. My fiance, who is Christian, sometimes gets hounded by us for her beliefs. None of us mean to (or, at least me), but it's kind of just what people do.

I think it's really important to make an effort not to do this, because it's just plain bad form. Since she pointed out that I've taken part in the aforementioned hounding, I've been more conscious of my behavior in that regard. In my case, I rarely do this, but it's easy to get caught up in a crowd that agrees with you.

In the end, I really don't consider myself an atheist. I like to think of it more like the idea of a born-again virgin, except it's with religion instead of sex. I have re-formed my god-cherry. =D

Give yourself time. There is plenty of time to explore your feelings on spirituality. You have a wedding coming up, so that should be a top priority. Since your fiance is atheist, reading an atheist book like The God Delusion would be helpful in understanding your partner's position. I would start there.
One thing that helped me with my decision to be an atheist was the realization that feelings are not facts. That my spiritual woo woo feelings were simply nice feelings-- that didn't necessarily relate to anything outside my brain. But we are all on our own journey to making sense of the world.
Have a lovely wedding!

I'm going to reiterate what /u/ghost_warlock said and warn you about Dawkins' abrasiveness. It can be a turnoff for those curious about atheism who have some sort of hold on spirituality since he is very harsh and critical. I would read the Carl Sagan book first then if you're still interested in Dawkins, check it out. There are also a few documentaries of Dawkins on YouTube if you want to test the waters before you spend money on a book.

I'm glad /u/FRENCH-TOAST-N-SYRUP pointed out Dawkins' abrasiveness. I've been an atheist for at least 10 years and tried reading the God Delusion about a month ago and couldn't make it through the first chapter. His smugness and self-righteous attitude made the book unbearable for me.

I'd suggest you try reading it again and not judge it by the first chapter. The second half of the book is written from a very scientific and rational standpoint and I found it truly quite enlightening.

Dawkins does include a section where he explains that, while he is not going out to intentionally offend, he refuses to pull any punches and has deliberately chosen to discuss religion in the same manner he would other issues, such as politics.

Additionally, it's obviously not even required to read either of those books. I haven't. I arrived at my atheism on my own. I was kind of like you, raised in a protestant/catholic home. I realized I stopped really believing. Then, when I tried to jump-start my faith again, I realized how many logical inconsistencies my old religion had. Then I realized how all religions had similar holes.

Long story short: the only thing atheism is is a lack of belief in deities. That's it. There's no creed. No rules. No ideals. Nothing. Despite what some may say, atheism is no where near anything like a religion or cult. It's just "I don't believe you" when told "there is a god"

Cool! I haven't read the God Delusion, but it has been recommended to me many times as the best general atheism book. I have the book Atheist Universe which I like. Even if you do not become atheist, I hope it improves your relationship even more.

I don't know what kind of criteria is used to determine the "best general atheism book". I much prefer "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris over it and even "God is not Great" by Hitchens is better in my opinion.

I think it's important to also remember that even if there is a God that the chances of Christianity being correct are quite slim. The Bible is full of holes and contradictions. Attaching yourself to Christianity means ignoring a lot of those. I'm not sure why we as humans pretend to have any idea as to what happens after we die.

A lot of being an atheist is just not buying into religions and just being skeptical about God. I accept that it's possible that a deity created the universe but I see no evidence of it and I don't feel the "Holy spirit" so I have no reason to pretend there is more to it than that. I'm just gonna do my best to be a decent person and not worry about what happens after I die. I'm pretty confidant I'm not gonna end up in any kind of hell so I don't lose any sleep over it.

No advice. Just want to say that 'on the fence' is a good place to be. If you're questioning things and being honest with yourself, then that's pretty healthy, even if you can't figure out what way to fall.

I mean, when I really think about it, there's no evidence that God does or does not exist. I'm in nursing and we operate under evidence based practice. Our Nurse Practice Act is set with guidelines that are based on evidence of scientific nursing research. When I think about evidence that God exists, I can't find any. There's no evidence upon which to base religious practice. That's just what's going through my head

And that is probably the thought process of the majority of people who identify as Atheist. The question is not 'does God exist?' but rather 'do I believe God exists?'

You don't need to rule out God existing to lack belief that he does. I don't personally believe because nothing has ever given me any reason to do so. I'm comfortable with that in the same way i am comfortable not believing in any number of supernatural things that other people believe in.

In truth, I only really use the word Atheist to describe myself because I feel like it's supportive of something that still has a stigma attached to it. I'd rather not have to make that claim at all, in an ideal world.

Edit: I would also add, while there is no absolute proof that God does or does not exist, there is evidence that makes a more convincing argument against it than for it, IMO.

I'll agree with you that it seems unlikely that such a being is out there.

I don't think that there should be a stigma attached to it. It's what you believe (for lack of a better term). Nobody should criticize you for having an opinion. It's stupid. I'm schizophrenic so I know all about stigma. I'm completely stable and symptom free on medication, but it's not like I can go around telling people. People shouldn't criticize you t he same way they shouldn't fear me (maybe not the same, but you know what I mean?)

Actually, to be honest with you, I'm in the UK so the stigma is not that much for me personally, but I am aware that there are those around the world who are not so fortunate, so it's more a little passive statement of support for others than anything else. I'll call myself Atheist because others can't always do the same.

Wow, that really reads a lot more pretentious than it sounded in my head ha ha.

I get the feeling from your post that "being on the fence" is a bad thing. Please consider that it is not. You are figuring things out for yourself, and although a lot of people will give you advice (from both sides of the fence), really it is up to you to decide what matters to you and where you want to go. If you are not comfortable on either side of the fence, then stay up there. The view is better because you are higher anyway. :) Just try and live your life the best you can and you will sort it out in your own time.

I am starting to understand that it matters less to whom I pray than that I pray.
That in praying for guidance, the real goal is to formulate questions so clearly that I can understand them. The external power that offers guidance comes from within me; the force of its wisdom comes from my clarity; the strength of its conviction arises out of my choice to concentrate on this question or that call for help. All of these are requests for clarification.

That in praying for strength, the real goal is to recognize my strength. I have survived till now! I have done some of what I can do, but not all. I have understood all of what I needed to arrive here today and I accept that tomorrow I may need to learn more. My prayer for strength is a prayer for a moment of stillness in which to gather my resources.

I am not going into battle. I don't need the strength of ten. I don't need armour and a sward. All prayers are prayers for guidance and strength. I have what I need: I have the clear strength of one.

Coming from a catholic upbringing and leaving the church in my early teens I too kept on praying even after realizing the whole thing did not make sense. I felt guilty for not praying for a few years afterward. it took me years to truly let go of religion completely.
Later on looking at believers from an "outsider's" point of view I realised that everyone prays just for comfort.

It takes time, you need to remember that you were indoctrinate for many many years since you were born, your mind only knows how to think from that perspective. It will take time and effort, it does not need to happen overnight. Just keep asking questions about everything, including my very advice.

Did you discuss with the priest what you want the overall wedding message to be? I've seen weddings that were excruciatingly awkward where the priest did nothing but talk about God and Adam and Eve and bible verses the entire time, hardly mentioning the actual couple (who weren't terribly religious) being wed. I'd make sure to let him know you want him to take it easy with that stuff.

You're so sweet for thinking of that! Thank you so much!! I'm happy to say that our ceremony is pretty light on the religious stuff! There's a Bible reading and Lord's prayer and that's it for the religious stuff. Everything else is about us. I'm going to go over it again with the officiant a few week before the wedding and tweak anything :)

There is just one thing you need to decide: do you believe in god? However, in order to answer that question, you first have to define what you really mean by "god" - something that surprising little few religious people actually do.

When I think of God, I think of the omniscient being who created all. That's the God I was brought up to believe.
I mentioned it in another comment, but I'll say it here too that way you don't have to go looking in case this gets a bunch of comments: As a nurse (almost a nurse, graduate in May and get married a week later!) I operate under evidence based practice. The guildlines and rules that we follow are based on scientific evidence from research. When I think about whether or not God exists, I think about the lack of evidence. There's no evidence proving he exists, but there's no evidence saying he doesn't exist either

Is that it? So you don't believe Jesus was God/son of God? You don't believe you can communicate with God (praying)? You don't believe in Heaven? This is what I mean when I say the definition of "God" is something many religious people haven't thought much about.

I expect your definition of God is more complex than "omniscient being who created all". If not, you're not a Christian.

I was brought up to believe that God is an all knowing, all powerful, loving god. Jesus is his son, when we die we go to Heaven and evil people go to Hell. basically, the stereotypical stuff (sorry if this wasn't the kind of answer you were looking for. I've been up all night critiquing a research article. come to find out it's not due until midnight. FML)_

I've thought about it at length for many years. I've always come up with more questions than answers. Being an insomniac before the age of ipods, I t was one of the main things I thought about while trying to sleep: What I believed and why

Ask yourself "Do I want to believe things that are true, to the best of my ability". If the answer is yes, then you need to accept that the truth has nothing to fear from open and honest investigation.

The next step is to decide what the best pathway to truth is, and then follow it unflinchingly.

I discovered the Atheist Experience on youtube while I was in college. At first I was just looking up evolution vs creation debates, because I thought they were hilarious (even as a christian), and I eventually stumbled upon Matt Dillahunty's videos. Suddenly I'm watching christian vs atheist debates and I was like "damn... this is some heavy shit" and it really got me thinking.

It wasn't until about 4 years later that I finally admitted that I was an atheist, though. It's not just a switch that you can flick, like "now I'm a christian, and now I'm an atheist!" Deconverting is typically a long and gradual process. So as for your original post: on the fence is exactly where you need to be right now. Keep an open mind, keep researching, and keep asking the hard questions. It's not like there is a deadline or anything.

Edit: started rambling and distracted myself. Here is my favorite Atheist Experience clip. It's kinda long, but he really drives the point home here: Part 1. Part 2.

This is a common problem, as prayer is very much like a security blanket. It is indeed quite comforting to think that there is someone watching out for us, that bad people will eventually be punished even if they aren't caught by the police, that there's some sort of order and meaning to it all. For many, having the idea that there is an objective God-given purpose to life is also comforting.

Sometimes I feel a little down and need to recharge my "feel good batteries". While I can't rely on faith in a god to make me feel good, I do do something similar. I remind myself that in the grand scheme of things, myself, my problems, the problems of others are only fleeting experiences that register as an imperceptibly short blip on the scale of cosmic time. It's hard to put into words, but reminding myself that in an objective sense, I'm not really that important helps me to breathe a sigh of relief over whatever problems I'm having, and makes those problems seem much more insignificant. It also reminds me that, as humans, all we have is each other. We need to stick together to solve our collective problems if we're to survive more than a few generations into the future.

If you've not heard of it, I highly recommend you watch some or all of The Sagan Series. This one, titled A Reassuring Fable is particularly relevant to our discussion, though they are all very good. Here's the whole list - you might find it gives you a different sort of comfort as it does for me. Your mileage may vary.

I've been sitting on the fence for almost two decades now and I can just tell you: it's much more comfortable than it sounds.

(Though I took the other route, coming from a strongly atheist background.)

It can be a bit bugging: some may interpret your religous knowledge as invitaiton to proselytism, others will put you in one box with fundamentalis mouthfoamers. But I found that a minor irk at most.

As an example: I don't say a prayer at the table, but I have adopted the habit to pause for a moment, reflect on my day, and, in a sense "recognize" what I'm going to eat. At the very least, on stressful days it stops me from wolfing down a meal in a minute, head still spinning elsewhere, ending up feeling bloated but still hungry.

In that sense, I look at religous practices mainly by asking how it changes individual behavior and the interactions in a community.
(e.g. saying a prayer before a family meal can be seen as a bonding mechanism: you do wait for the others - or you recognize the others are waiting for you. You donÄt just reflect on yourself, but on the others, who's there today and who isn't. It may help you turn eating at the same table into eating together.)

I'v worked for catholic nuns, but I've encountered the "trivializaiton of religion" only in the US, I've never had to live with that for long time.

Still: if you asked me how to deal with that: it's a group ritual, like greeting each other with high-fives or cheeck pecks. Stand your ground when pushed too far, but give others some leeway, give them the technical benefit of doubt - even when they are not right, certainly you might be wrong, too.

There's no need to lose friends and family over that. It takes two to stick together, but only one to drive you apart. Don't be the one.

This sounds a lot like me many years ago, right down to the "religious wedding because that's what the family expects."

I think being on the fence is uncomfortable because there's so much in Christianity on "how to be a better Christian" that actually comes across as "reasons why you're terrible for not doing X, Y, and Z," which are things you're probably not doing when you're a nominal believer. (Ex: attending church every Sunday, voting for a certain candidate, not living with a partner before marriage, tithing, etc.) Even though you've got the basic "believe in Jesus and go to Heaven," it's not good enough for the guilt-inducing watchdogs of mainstream Christian culture.

At the same time, declaring yourself as a non-believer is scary too; atheists and agnostics are a highly-distrusted minority. Even before "coming out" to family members, admitting it to yourself is unsettling, especially after years of the habit of prayer and belief. (When I was in your position, it took me at least a year to get over the thought pattern of "but if I don't believe in God, he'll hate me!" Never mind that he doesn't exist, IMO, and therefore can't hate me.) If a prayer ritual brings you comfort, losing that leaves a hole, and that uncertainty can be worrisome too.

I slowly distanced myself over the course of several years before finally "officially" breaking off and considering myself a non-believer. I've had to find new ways to replace some old habits, and to fit myself into other habits like mealtime prayers at family gatherings. I thought it would be like putting on a whole new skin, but in the end it was just changing the color of my nametag, if that makes any sense.

Whenever people do a group prayer around me, such as at mealtime, and they bow their heads and close their eyes and pray, I don't. I bow my head and close my eyes and think about how happy I am to be spending time with this group of people. Is that weird?

That's exactly what I do, actually! My brother got married this summer, and when they said prayers at the rehearsal dinner and wedding, I closed my eyes and thought about how glad I was that they got to start a nice life together. :)

Your story if very similar to my life, only 3 years behind me. I now consider myself a Bright, which is a new neologism of basically a naturalist.

I was able to consider myself a non believer about 6 months after my son was born. I had him circumcised partially for the religious tradition. (but mainly because I didn't want him to be singled out growing up) I sort of regret it now, and feel even more terrible for the fact that I regret it, being it is a terrible thing in my opinion now.

The point is, start living now without any religious traditions, the sooner the better.

Also, I know exactly how you feel about prayer, I miss it. I miss being able to thank something directly for good things, I have had a lucky life so far compared to others. I haven't really found an emotional way to deal with no prayer, as empty prayers feel awkward so I just don't pray anymore. Over time, you will grow out of it.

It doesn't sound like you're on the fence, it sounds more like you're having an increasingly difficult time lying to yourself. I don't mean that as an absolute, however. I mean it seems like you already know how you feel about religion, but you're just hanging on to your old ways.

Praying is a form of meditation, so it seems like you might try to take up a more general form of that.

If I had any guidance for you, it's this: is there anything your religion dictates that you don't agree with, especially if it harms the rights of others? If so, you might want to think the premise of that religion as a way to live a good life. If you're in religion to satisfy your family, that's a pretty awful reason. Live your own life - isn't it about time - and congrats on getting engaged :)

They think cohabitation is wrong, which I hate. I think cohabitation is a good thing! If you live together before getting married, then you know you can live together! I was going to have the pastor at my friend's church (that I had gone to a couple times and I spent a lot of time at their house because I was good friends with his daughter) who I knew well and he asked me and my fiance if we sleep together. Not to get TMI, but uhh yeah. We lived together at the time. I just said that we shared a bed (hoping to imply that sex wasn't involved, but I'm pretty sure I failed) and he asked us not to live together anymore and not to even go to each other's apartments because it might invite temptation. I walked right out of there. that made me mad. I know that my religion doesn't like gay marriage. I don't understand why. let them get married! I don't care!! It's not going to change my life!! I see it as a good thing! What if they adopt children? If they aren't married, the survivers (the partner and children) won't get insurance benefits or anything! If they're going to be together for an extended period and have all the same commitments as marriage, let it be legal! (sorry, end rant) there are other things, too.

I can live a good life without religion. I know that. I know I'm a good person. I have three goals in life. 1. To be a good wife 2. To be a good mother 3. To be a good nurse. None of those things require religion, yet they're all good things.

I'm not in it to satisfy my family. My immediate family (mom, dad, brother) never discuss religion. Ever. We simply don't care. The family who IS religious, they're not exactly close. They're my family on my biological dad's side (my real dad died when I was 10, my brother and I have since been legally adopted by our stepdad) and they really don't have a lot to do with me except on facebook. I like to think of myself as tolerant. If they want to scream about Jesus, they can. I don't care. As you put it, I need to live my own life.

I think cohabitation is a good thing because you let your guard down after a while and show your true self to the person you're spending the rest of your life with. If you don't live together, you don't have that problem and you could be hiding how you really act in private. If you can't be mature enough to handle sexual matters, how can you start a family - something surely they'd want you to do.

As far as gay marriage, they see it as this: if they don't stop it, it means they support it. It's like stopping evil, as if gay marriage is the same as saying murder is OK. Besides, they can already adopt children and marriage isn't about children since we don't require couples to have or adopt children.

These views do not apply in the US because we're not a theocracy. However, if we follow the Bible, it disallows divorce. I believe 100% of completed divorce cases lead to failures in marriages. If they want to protect marriage, ban divorce.

it harms children

We don't require procreation from couples. Couples can marry without having children because they don't want children, because they can't have children, or because they're too old to have children. This is not a requirement of marriage for straight couples.

couples who can't have children can adopt.

This doesn't refute the point I made about procreation, but gay couples can - and do - adopt already which has nothing to do with marriage.

OK but do lesbians have sodomy? Are you going to ban heterosexual sodomy? How is this going to be enforced?

gay marriage leads to bestiality, marrying your car, polygamy

We're talking about gay marriage here, nothing else. Let's discuss those issues separately since they're not related. Besides, the same arguments were used against interracial/interfaith marriages. No bestiality marriages yet though some religious groups do believe in polygamy.

As far as I can see, their only point is that the government shouldn't force religious organizations to go against their views and marry gays. I'm OK with that, the wall of separation works both ways. But as far as federal and state benefits of couples, I don't know of any good argument against gay marriage.

The way I see it, whether it's man/man, man/woman, or woman/woman they're all consenting adults. That's the difference between gay marriage and something like beastiality. In beastiality, one party (the animal) cannot consent. In gay marriage, both parties consent. If a certain pastor chooses not to marry gay couples, that's fine! However, I would like to see gay couples have the same legal rights as heterosexual couples.

What's wrong with that? Don't believe extraordinary claims until you have a good reason to. Not being sure what things to believe is kind of important.

I know nothing about atheism

There's nothing you really need to know. The broad definition is 'absence of belief in any gods'. It has no creeds or dogma or anything you have to do or say or think. If you want to have a prayer at your wedding, there's no atheism police to come tell you you can't.

If there aren't any gods about which you think 'yeah, that one is real'... atheism is just a descriptive term for when that's the situation you're in.

I'm in healthcare and so fully believe in science and It's advancements.

What makes me doubt is lack of evidence and how a "loving" God can create such hardship for some, but not others. Through a discussion with my friend (also a moderator of this subreddit), he mentioned people who don't have access to Christianity who, according to the Bible, will go to Hell due to them not believing in God (what should be said is not KNOWING about God due to no access). That just further makes me doubt because how could a "loving" God do that? I've been trying to get an answer for this from my religious peers for years, because it never made sense to me, and have never gotten a good answer

Ok, i will shed some light on the subject as i also had to answer that question. I believed in a loving God, but a God with justice. See the problem? He cant be both, and he hasn't showed any good sign of being just or good.

I started noticing that there is a big difference between there being a God and wanting it to be one. With an objective view on the world i can see that the world is not fair from our eyes, things just happen, there is no need for God. Only way i can justify that belief to myself is through deism. So in other words in my opinion there is a good reason why no one can give you a good answer on why God hasn't ended suffering, either because he cant, or because he doesn't exist.

Also as for sin and suffering, God wont be the savior from it. You cant live life without suffering, every good thing is bad without something to compare it to. A life without problems creates problems, that is why people in Europe are less happy then people who live nomadic lives.

Besides that paradise thing kind of failed last time so how is heaven supposed to be better??

Now, if there was no Jesus, man or god, what's the point? Given this, are you motivated to try another religion? Or is it simpler just to ignore them all, since none have 'better' (or any) evidence?

Final point: There are people out there (apologists) who try to explain away all the contradictions and lack of evidence with 'clever' words. None have ever succeeded except in convincing themselves and other believers. Given that no one has ever made a good argument for belief (except at the point of a gun), the whole thing collapses.

I think as long as you're open and honest with yourself and question what you've been told then the natural result is atheism. For example I'm told by christians, that a christian book, written by christians for christians shows that Jesus existed and did many interesting things on Earth. But outside of that book, there is nothing else. I find it more than a little implausible that people who met or saw Jesus performing miracles and whatnot decided to not write anything down, anywhere... until 30 years after his supposed death. Could you imagine what would happen today if a god appeared on Earth in human form? All news would end, it'd be Jesus none stop on every tv channel, radio program, internet page and discussion online and off everywhere. Every other word written would be in a story about him. And yet back then, nothing! No letters, poems, records, diary entries, stories, official reports, biographies, recollections, notes... nothing, just a dead silence. Everything we know about this Jesus character comes out the organisation that wants to believe it was true. And you could say they are a little biased.

Your description of your friends and grandmother, and prayer in the wedding, are directed more towards what people do as a result of their religious (in this case it looks like Christian) beliefs, rather than a criticism of the actual beliefs themselves.

To start, in regards to Christianity, what do you believe concerning the tenet of one God and that God is Yahweh as attributed in the Torah/Bible/Qur'an? Do you believe that there is credible evidence or argument to support belief in the monotheistic Yahweh? How about the Divinity of Jesus as The Christ, The Appointed One, the Fulfillment of the Jewish Prophecies?

If you feel there is not a credible reason to justify or support the belief in the monotheistic Yahweh/Christ, how about other intervening (i.e., a God that cognitively produces effects/events/interactions/causations within this universe) supernatural Deity constructs? Do you feel that one can justify a belief in any intervening Deity?

How about non-intervening supernatural Deities, such as a non-intervening Deistic Deity that cognitively created the universe (with the implication of a purpose)? or the concept of Pantheism where the universe is the physical representation of, or equivalent to, a non-intervening God?

If you feel that there is no credible evidence or argument to support or justify the rejection of the baseline or null hypothesis that {supernatural deities do not exist}, that is you fail to reject the null hypothesis, and accept the alternate hypothesis that {supernatural deities do exist}, than welcome to agnostic atheism. Glad to have you aboard. :D

If it matters, I'm in healthcare and so fully believe in science and It's advancements.

While many would argue that the methodology of science/scientific method and theistic belief are compatible, the application of the methodology of science towards the existence of an intervening Deity has not yet, and may never, provide evidence to support belief in intervening supernatural deities. However, many/most theists claim that it is Religious Faith that is the basis for their belief and Religious Faith does not meet the requirements to be evaluated under the methodology of science. Additionally, science is not the only method to gain knowledge.

Finally, in regards to Christianity, and all the Abrahamic Religions, which holds monotheistic Yahwehism as their most fundamental and essential tenet, consider the pre-Torah/Biblical history of Yahweh and Yahweh worship: Argument against monotheistic Yahwehism/Allahism. I am a gnostic (knowledge based position having the burden of proof) atheist, to a high level of reliability and confidence, towards monotheistic Yahwehism (and by extension a gnostic atheist towards Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) as a result of the physical archeological and linguistic anthropological evidience that shows Yahweh was evolved/adopted from an intial polytheistic paytheon, where Yahweh was a mere subordinate rain/fertility/warrior God, for human based political and military reasons, to a henotheism and then to the fallacous position of monotheism.

I talked with a good friend of mine (who's actually a moderator of this subreddit) and we talked about the different types of atheism and we csme to the conclusion thst my thinking most correlates to agnostic atheism (as you said). There's just no evidence to support either way, in my opinion

Yeah, man, just do what makes you happy...with in reason. I find myself thinking that there MUST be something out there. Something bigger than us but I start thinking in logical terms and reasoning and I come back to atheism. Hell, I even find myself wanting to believe in something greater than myself that I don't know about but here again, logic and reasoning brings me to the idea of it's just and we have to take care of each other. Don't sweat it, just go with the flow and live life and help others. Either way, God or no God you lived your life doing the right thing.

Nothing wrong with "being on the fence". The question "Whether God exists?" is a very fascinating question when you really work through it. It touches on a lot of other important questions, such as science, philosophy, history, etc.

I think if you are interested in learning more about the Bible from an objective and more critical point of view I usually recommend listening to the online lectures from Yale. It takes a long time to get through them all but it is very informative.

If you personally are happy, and in your life you seek to help others, then, at least in my opinion, that's what matters.

To be fair, there are those who would make larger-scoped arguments about the often evil effects of certain religious institutions on society. While those are valid arguments, it's still hard to see, as an individual, how your contribution or lack thereof to that evil institution really makes a difference one way or another.

So, if you're worried that your extended family relationships will be irreparably damaged by announcing your atheism, and you value those relationships more than you value speaking the truth that you recognize, I think it's okay to choose to remain silently annoyed at the religious fervor you see around you. So long as you continue to be a good person (and btw, being a good person includes not raising any potential future children to be brainwashed), then you've already done more than most people ever do.

I want to work with cancer patients, and help them get healthy again. I want to do camps and stuff for them (I've already done a little with one) to make them feel better. That's where I want to take my nursing career.

As for the future children, my fiance and I have already discussed how we want to raise future children when it comes to religion. We're going to let them choose. We're not going to swing them in any direction and if they ask us what we believe, we will be honest with them.

Being on the fence is a perfectly good place to be. Keep your mind open, be rational and reasonable, and don't buy into ideology. Get off the fence when you feel ready, when you've come to your conclusions through careful and thorough deliberation and no-one, atheist or religious, can criticise you for that.

You need to think about yourself, really think about what you want. Ignore what everyone else thinks or believes. Do you believe in God? Ask yourself that question, and if you do believe in God that's perfectly fine, nothing wrong with that. If you don't believe in God, that's perfectly fine as well. You don't need to compare yourself to others, you need to do what makes you happy. Very cliche, but that's how it is.

If you're in doubt as to whether or not you believe, then look at the facts and theories. If it still makes sense for you to believe, then do so. Also keep in mind that you don't need to associate yourself with any religion. Historians have cataloged over 2800 deities over the last 6,000 years, it would be hard to choose one. You can believe whatever you want to believe. Believe what feels right and makes sense to you.

It sounds like your beef is primarily with religious "advertisement," and you are still on the fence with a personal god.

With regards to religious "complicity," being from a staunchly Roman Catholic family, I know where you're coming from. It's hard to sit around a room of your grieving family members and argue with them that No, Grandpa is NOT in a better place. He's gone forever, and we should have all enjoyed him more when he was here. So we don't do that, it's disrespectful. In that instance, religion is an important coping mechanism, even if we disagree with its tenets, and that would not be the appropriate time to force somebody to second-guess their beliefs. It would only serve to estrange you from your friends/family. I have argued with my religious friends that "coming out" as an Atheist to a very religious family can be as damaging as coming out as a homosexual.

On the topic of your wedding... there are a few ways to look at it. A pragmatic approach is to understand that weddings are typically for the bride (I'm not sure which you are), and the family, and they will probably judge your ceremony (especially when your cousins get married in cathedrals). My girlfriend and I are torn between even having a ceremony (one of the few marriage conversations we've had) for this reason, as we're both atheists from religious families. After going through the wedding-gauntlet that is your late-20's, we both feel it's kind of ridiculous to throw several thousand dollars at a one-night event, as opposed to travelling Europe or a home down payment, but I digress.

It is still your wedding though, if you feel strongly that one such prayer is amoral or not representative of the bond you and your fiancee share. After seeing 20 or 30 weddings, and how other couples in similar situations handled it, I've realized there's this wishy-washy pan-christianity shit that happens in modern weddings. They don't emulate any church rituals, or wedding traditions, they just seem to give a nod to pascal's wager. "Well, if there is a god, we light a candle on the offchance that he/she decides not smite us with fire and brimstone this very moment."

The other posts are spot-on though about "the duty of an atheist," you should do what you want with your wedding. There are pro's and con's, and it doesn't have to be so morally black and white (some would argue that it does). Above all, go with your gut, over internet advice! I wish you even-mindedness along your journey!

It sounds like you don't really believe in any of it (you shouldn't). Often times I see these posts in /r/Christianity and it comes off as just reaching out for a reason to be comforted in it. Whatever. All I can say is that if there is a god, only a cold-hearted fuck would send you to hell for being a good person and not making a decision with all of the "viable" options out there.

Just do you. Life gets simpler when you know there isn't an imaginary friend holding your hand. You'll find yourself looking for answers rather than comfort and I dare say, becoming a stronger person because of it.

But I will just say that before I became an atheist, I had some funny ideas about what atheism is like. I thought atheists were selfish people, ‘running away’ from God like Jonah. But we're not. We're just normal people who don't think there is a good reason to believe in god. We still uphold values, and while we don't have a holy text for moral guidance, we generally do alright on our own — we can empathise and care for other people just fine without that, thanks.

So if you're questioning god, but are frightened of life on the ‘other side’, yeah it can be uncomfortable for a bit. I got very depressed when I first stopped believing, because it'd been central to my life up til then. But after that, you realise that you're still the same person you were before, still kind, still generous, but you just don't go to church or pray.

I can do all three of those things without religion. I know things won't change. My fiance is atheist and I have lived with him for a couple of years now. A very good friend of mine who I've also lived with is atheist as well. I know good people can be atheist. Just because you're religious doesn't make you a good person (in my experience, it's generally the opposite), and just because you're atheist doesn't make you a bad person.

To me religion only serves the purpose of guiding people to live better lives. Some religions do a better job than others. Not everybody is the same, and as such not everybody is going to have the same religion. The god I believe in is not the type love one group more than another, he loves everybody just the same.
If you dont' want to believe in god, or can't, it doesn't matter. If you're trying to do what's right then what does it matter if you believe god is real or not? If god is real then he has to be good, and if he's good then he understands why some people believe and some don't. People can't help their beliefs, they are just their beliefs. So if god is good and real then when you die you should go to a better place regardless. Some routs get you to better places faster than others. Religion is just what we use as our guide in deciding what is wrong and what is right.

Leave the imaginary friends to children. There isn't anything to know about atheism. If you're intelligent enough to see the religious stupidity for what it is, then you're intelligent enough to make your own conclusions about it. You understand you only pray because it makes you feel good. How selfish is that for a religion?

I recommend reading some good philosophy towards this, as there are brilliant philosophers on both ends of the spectrum. And I'm talking real philosophy, none of this pop-atheist/dawkins bullshit called "philosophy". seriously, stay away from that garbage. You will be much more knowledgable by reading really deep books that actually deal with the issues.

The Miracle of Theism: Arguments for and against the Existence of God

-J.L. Mackie

Is there a God?

-Richard Swinburne

try reading these two books, hopefully they help

edit: Going out on a limb as guessing the downvotes are because I bashed on pop atheists. Sorry, but most of their arguments are well-refuted by theist philosophers.

It's fine! J.L. Mackie is a fantastic author and famous atheist. If you're looking to hear the best arguments against theism, he's your guy. However Richard Swinburne is one of the greatest christian minds of recent times.

If you read one, read the other. Seriously, do not read just one side of the argument and say your a _____ now. Read both sides, and make a concerned effort and understanding which one is the most convincing to you.