Anyone out there seen anything similar first hand? I don’t know of any Muslims in my hometown so I personally haven’t.

I don’t think this would have worked on that beach in France but it seems to be sound advice.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce

The following 3 users Like Full Circle's post:3 users Like Full Circle's postDom (01-09-2016), RocketSurgeon76 (01-09-2016), Aliza (01-09-2016)

(01-09-2016 07:50 AM)Chas Wrote: Yabut, the question still is "If you don't like Western democracy and freedom, why the fuck are you emigrating there?"

I dunno -- perhaps because you're being bombed by planes from Syria, Russia, America, and Jordan? Maybe because Lebanon is full? Maybe because Turkey is pissing you on?

I feel like I gave too-detailed an answer to such a simple-minded question.

Have you ever been in a situation where you fled for your life? If so, did you stop and take time to ensure your saviors shared your precise views? Or did you simply -- finally! -- rest your head and get your first sleep after sailing the Western Mediterranean?

To answer your question more directly: barrel bombs, chemical attacks, unstable flux, artillery at night, being forced to line up and choose between ISIS and Assad ... do I need to go on, or do you get it?

(01-09-2016 06:34 PM)Full Circle Wrote: Anyone out there seen anything similar first hand? I don’t know of any Muslims in my hometown so I personally haven’t.

I made some of the coolest friends in college at McNeese State University in southwest Louisiana, just after 9/11/01, because some of the redneck assholes were being abusive to two Muslim women in headscarfs on campus. I lived off-campus, but happened to be parking my motorcycle in between two of the classroom buildings where they walked from their classes toward the student housing buildings, and caught the exchange.

I was a lot less passive about the stop, as I kept my helmet on (and my all-black, armored leathers, gloves, and steel-toed boots in which I always ride) and just walked right in between the main guy and his targets of abuse, forcing him to stop short. When he kept trying to shout vitriol at them about "our country", I started to shout back, forcing his attention to me instead of to them. I started screaming about how this is a university where everyone is welcome, and that's part of what makes America great, and assholes like him were an embarrassment to all of us. (I was a lot less polite than that in my phrasing, but I don't recall exactly what I said in the heat of the moment, 15 years ago.)

For a moment, it looked like I was going to have to fight three guys, but after them shouting some stuff about me being a "Sand-nigger-lover" (their exact words I do recall), a few other people had started to gather, and they decided to back off.

I apologized to the girls, and lightheartedly asked them if they could use an armored escort, tapping my jacket's shoulder plate as a reassurance. They laughed and said they'd appreciate it. It was about a block and a half to their student housing, at which point they introduced me to some of the other Muslims in that complex, including the guys who normally tried to escort the girls for their safety. (It broke my heart that this was their daily lives!) The guys introduced me to some amazing foods, some of which I still cook and eat to this day, and more importantly they introduced me to the hookah.

Thankfully, the university got wind of the harassment and took steps to beef up security for the protection of the students, and to send out the formal message that this sort of thing was Not Okay, and would result in expulsion from the college and/or charges filed, if appropriate. So kudos to them for that.

The ironic part is that these Muslims were all Bosnians*, and had about as much in common culturally/religiously with the 9/11 assholes as Unitarian Universalists have with Christian fundamentalists.

*Edit to Add: Correction... some of the Muslims in the complex were Lebanese. I got the hookah lessons from the Lebanese students. But the ones in the incident and food-sharing right afterward were all Bosnian. Should have been more clear in my language.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson

I do note though that their report's headline, "There Are 13 Countries Where Atheism Is Punishable by Death" is somewhat misleading, as the body of the report says:

The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. These countries all allow for capital punishment against apostasy (the renunciation of a particular religion), and blasphemy (speaking sacrilegiously about a god or things sacred). Atheism per se has no connection with apostasy or blasphemy.

The IHEU also erroneously claims that Australia applies "legal restrictions on nonreligious speech and thought". This claim is absurd, so how well have their other claims been researched?

(01-09-2016 04:34 AM)SYZ Wrote: To imagine a "symmetry" is also absurd.

Quote:The symmetry is your attitude - ban stuff I disagree with.

And why is it necessarily wrong for one to want a ban on things one disagrees with—from a purely personal perspective? I also wants bans on underage drinking, gambling, smoking in public places, online pornography, graffiti, child exploitation, illegal immigration, hurdles and greyhound racing, Japanese whaling, fracking etc etc etc. Are any of those wrong solely because of my "attitude"?

Can I ask you if you personally favour allowing all Islamic clothing in public places, particularly within secular countries (separation of church and state), or do you favour a total ban? And as an atheist, why are you so vehemently defending such divisive, and anti-social repressive religious practices?

(02-09-2016 12:37 AM)SYZ Wrote: The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. These countries all allow for capital punishment against apostasy (the renunciation of a particular religion), and blasphemy (speaking sacrilegiously about a god or things sacred). Atheism per se has no connection with apostasy or blasphemy.

Well, you can nitpick if you want. Let's just say that it's OK to execute people for apostasy then?

Quote:The IHEU also erroneously claims that Australia applies "legal restrictions on nonreligious speech and thought". This claim is absurd, so how well have their other claims been researched?

I don't know, obviously I would expect them to be able to back it up with an appropriate reference.

Quote:And why is it necessarily wrong for one to want a ban on things one disagrees with—from a purely personal perspective? I also wants bans on underage drinking, gambling, smoking in public places, online pornography, graffiti, child exploitation, illegal immigration, hurdles and greyhound racing, Japanese whaling, fracking etc etc etc. Are any of those wrong solely because of my "attitude"?

It is not necessarily wrong to ban stuff you disagree with, but if you're going to take such a drastic step as infringing on the right of others to freedom of expression then it must be backed up with *more* than just "I don't like it, I want to ban it". Your justifications offered to me don't seem anything more than that.

Quote:Can I ask you if you personally favour allowing all Islamic clothing in public places, particularly within secular countries (separation of church and state), or do you favour a total ban? And as an atheist, why are you so vehemently defending such divisive, and anti-social repressive religious practices?

I'm not defending religious practice, I'm defending the right of any woman to choose her own clothing. I think that by advocating introducing a law based on banning of religious clothing you are in fact advocating crossing the line between church and state. Secularism is supposed to mean tolerance, not repression. It's supposed to mean freedom to choose, not "freedom" to conform.

I fully think that Islam, Christianity and other religions are harmful and backwards, at the same time I think that forcibly trying to impose my way of thinking on others is a. revolting and b. doomed to failure. I've long since decided that what matters in my evaluation of a person is whether or not they are kind, not what ideology they cleave to. If you care about ideology too much you end up in absurd situations where you find yourself wanting to tell people how they should dress

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

(01-09-2016 07:50 AM)Chas Wrote: Yabut, the question still is "If you don't like Western democracy and freedom, why the fuck are you emigrating there?"

I dunno -- perhaps because you're being bombed by planes from Syria, Russia, America, and Jordan? Maybe because Lebanon is full? Maybe because Turkey is pissing you on?

I feel like I gave too-detailed an answer to such a simple-minded question.

Have you ever been in a situation where you fled for your life? If so, did you stop and take time to ensure your saviors shared your precise views? Or did you simply -- finally! -- rest your head and get your first sleep after sailing the Western Mediterranean?

To answer your question more directly: barrel bombs, chemical attacks, unstable flux, artillery at night, being forced to line up and choose between ISIS and Assad ... do I need to go on, or do you get it?

While that may be true of some, it is not true of all emigrants.
And I rather doubt that many just up and took the first transport to anywhere.

And even in the few cases where that might be true, a little gratitude to the country and people who accepted them would not be remiss.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

(02-09-2016 05:10 AM)Chas Wrote: While that may be true of some, it is not true of all emigrants.
And I rather doubt that many just up and took the first transport to anywhere.

... They are looking for a better life. And when they arrive, everyone says to them, "Why did you come here if you want to just spend your time being all Somalian/Algerian/Saudi/Zimbabwean? Why don't you go back? We are very happy here without you. You are all theives. You steal our jobs. Sure, we have nice stuff here, I can see why you come. You come to take our nice stuff. Just be poor and stay in your shitty country."

Quote:And even in the few cases where that might be true, a little gratitude to the country and people who accepted them would not be remiss.

Gratitude which shall be shown by... adopting the national dress of the country in which they reside, speaking the language, singing the patriotic songs and so forth? As long as I pay my taxes and obey the law, why should I assimilate?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette

(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote: And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.

(02-09-2016 05:10 AM)Chas Wrote: While that may be true of some, it is not true of all emigrants.
And I rather doubt that many just up and took the first transport to anywhere.

... They are looking for a better life. And when they arrive, everyone says to them, "Why did you come here if you want to just spend your time being all Somalian/Algerian/Saudi/Zimbabwean? Why don't you go back? We are very happy here without you. You are all theives. You steal our jobs. Sure, we have nice stuff here, I can see why you come. You come to take our nice stuff. Just be poor and stay in your shitty country."

Quote:And even in the few cases where that might be true, a little gratitude to the country and people who accepted them would not be remiss.

Gratitude which shall be shown by... adopting the national dress of the country in which they reside, speaking the language, singing the patriotic songs and so forth? As long as I pay my taxes and obey the law, why should I assimilate?

Assimilation takes time, generations even. Case in point my own family. My grandparents struggled mightily to learn English, they arrived in the US when they were in their 50’s. My grandfather being a professional eventually was fluent enough to pass the boards and become a vet in the US. My grandmother’s English skills were never more than rudimentary.

My parents arrived in their 20’s and took them much less time to become fluent. Both they and my grandparents spoke/speak their native tongue at home.

I was 8 months old. Became a US Citizen at 15. I have always considered myself an American.

All three generations have held on to customs, food, religion to an ever decreasing extent. All of us have contributed to our adopted country. My grandparents have long since passed but the two older generations now have a new one in the form of grandchildren, nephews and nieces. This generation is native born and have no connection or understanding of the “old” ways. They are indistinguishable from John Smith and Jane Doe except for the surname.

Immigrants have to be given time to assimilate, some never will, but you can’t legislate the change, it will come in due time. Meanwhile a little understanding goes a long way in creating good will and a new crop of productive citizens.

Immigrants will always struggle at first and letting go of their customs is not like turning off a light switch. Harassing them doesn’t help. Making them feel welcome does and speeds up the assimilation process without harboring resentment.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce