On April 13, 1998, an interview was broadcast on Bay TV (local cable channel
35 in San Francisco) between anchor Claudia Cowan and
Dr. Ronna Kabatznick, Ph.D. The following transcription was created by
scott richie for Winky.

Claudia Cowan: There is nothing more frustrating to a
devout dieter than gaining the weight back. Our next guest believes that
learning how to control eating habits is simply a case of mind over matter.
Dr. Ronna Kabatznick has written a book on
dieting called The Zen of Eating, which
applies the ancient principles of Buddhism to everyday weight problems.
Here's her book, and here's Ronna. Thanks for joining us this
morning.

Dr. Ronna Kabatznick: Thank
you.

Claudia Cowan: It's a beautiful book, and I imagine
the principles are very ancient and beautiful themselves. What do you talk about
in terms of mind over matter when it comes to trying to lose weight and keep it
off?

Dr. Ronna Kabatznick: O.K. I just
want to make the point that it's not necessarily simple but it is easy.
And I know that's a little bit difficult distinction. We try
for the get things quick scheme. But in the principles of Buddhism
that I try to apply here, I apply the principle of mindfulness, which is being
aware of your moment to moment experience. For instance, when we have
the feeling of hunger we automatically want to run to the
refrigerator. The principle of mindfulness, which says be aware of
what's going on, allows you to tolerate that feeling of hunger or tolerate that
feeling of desire, so you are not always a slave to your
desires. That's what gets us into trouble, that's what puts us as
part of a vicious cycle. So our job, and this is a very ancient
experience that's been going on for 2500 years, is to sit back and watch things
come; watch our desire to move towards candy bars and move away and hate our
bodies, and you can see that these movements are always going on, but when we
can sit back and really observe them, this is a very interesting
thing. We find we are actually nourished by them, because when
that feeling of hatred towards our thighs overwhelms us and you could really
look at that feeling of hatred straight on, as opposed to then running
off and saying I've got to go on the latest diet; or, look at that urge for the
candy bar, and just really sit with it, and see that it's like a wave
that comes and goes, you are actually nourished by these
feelings. So instead of being frightened by resentment or
frightened by the love of your mothers chocolate cake, you can actually just sit
back and appreciate it, even when these things are very
difficult. And it takes practice.

Claudia Cowan: And even when you are craving these
things?

Dr. Ronna Kabatznick: Well, even - -
craving is something that's like a wave; it builds up, and it comes to a big
crescendo, and then it fades away. And the more you practice mindfulness,
and it is a practice, it's not some- thing that you just, you know, learn
in two seconds. You learn that you can survive. And that is a
really important thing. You can survive that
craving.

Claudia Cowan: And it doesn't happen overnight, as we
take a look at pictures of gorgeous dishes here that are looking very tempting
right now even at this early morning hour. Talk about some
examples. For instance, you have a craving for a candy bar at three
in the afternoon. You're at work; your at school. You know
you probably shouldn't do that. You have dinner coming up in a few
more hours. What advice do you pass on, what examples do you
have?

Dr. Ronna Kabatznick: Mindfulness is not
about the candy bar, mindfulness is about the drive that motivates you to the
candy bar. So if you really, you have that I've got to have it
feeling, then the mindfulness approach asks you to sit back, well,what does that really feel like? What are the sensations in my
body? What are the thoughts kind of pounding in my mind?
And as you get more familiar with them, you do not have to react to every
sensation or every thought in your mind. You go, Oh, that's just my
mind pounding away for a candy bar this afternoon. Oh, gee, that's
just my desire to take 10 pounds off in 10 min- utes. So the more
familiar you become with the sensations in your body and the thoughts of your
mind, and you don't identify with them as much, the more control and the more
inner satisfaction you can have. But, again, this takes
practice.

Claudia Cowan: It takes practice. You talk
about noble truths, and desires and attachments. Do you recommend
that people who read the book practice Buddhism in conjunction with part of
their dieting?

Dr. Ronna Kabatznick: Well, I
certainly recommend they practice mindfulness, but mindfulness has a very inter-
esting definition of what hunger is. We always think of hunger as
physiological, you know, we're hungry for a meal, we're thirsty for a
drink. Mindfulness says that when we suffer and we want something
that's outside of ourselves, and we're lusting for something, that is a feeling
of suffering. And the mindfulness approach says let's take that
desire to always be looking for things outside ourselves and bring it inside
ourselves. And that is satisfaction. So, the idea
of always looking for things outside ourselves is a vicious cycle, it's
never, ever going to end. The only thing that's ever going to
satisfy ourselves and really take us off that vicious cycle or away from that
kind of craziness that everybody feels about wanting to lose weight immediately
is to be aware in the moment, and no matter what that is, hating our
thighs or craving a candy bar, you can actually get nourishment from
that. And that's the most important thing.

Claudia Cowan: That's probably the trick of the week
for a lot of people...

Dr. Ronna Kabatznick:
It's the practice of the week. The practice of a
lifetime, I should say.

Claudia Cowan: The book is called The Zen of Eating. Really no recipes in
here, just talking about - -

Dr. Ronna Kabatznick:
No, that's not true. There's recipes -
-

Claudia Cowan: O.K. There are recipes -
-

Dr. Ronna Kabatznick: Well, there's recipes
for nour- ishing your heart. As opposed to nourishing your body,
The Zen of Eatingis talking about really nourishing what you are hungry for, and
what you are hungry for, according to the principles of mindfulness, is that
everyday experi - - that every moment experience, no matter what it
is. No matter whether it's intense love, or intense hatred, it's
awareness of that is what's going to nourish you. So there are
many, many recipes, but they are for nourishing the heart, not necessarily the
mouth.

Claudia Cowan: Something to keep in mind when you
purchase the book. It's The Zen of
Eating and Dr. Ronna Kabatznick,
thank you very much for joining us to talk about this.