Posted
by
Cliffon Tuesday January 13, 2004 @10:30PM
from the paper-versus-experience dept.

concerned-about-employment asks: "What's the unemployment rate in the IT industry currently? Years ago I heard it was 8-9% but with so many jobs going offshore and the general unemployment rate rising, could it be even higher than before? Has it really broken 10% as some people say? That would mean 1 out of every 10 IT workers is out of a job. Personally though, from the perspective of a recent college graduate, it looks like 20% from here." How does the actual national unemployment rate in IT compare to the number of IT professionals that you know who are currently out of work?

Zactly. During the dot-bomb days of stupidity, a kid could be flipping burgers one day and have a business card with Senior Systems and Network Engineer on it the next. His unemployment is just Darwinism in the workforce, IMHO.

Unfortunately, these are the guys who generally kept their jobs as they recognized early on whose ass they had to kiss.An important collary to the topic in discussion, would be how many people have left the IT industry simply because it is no longer worth their time.

Yep. The company I was working for went under in October 2003. From what I've heard, everyone who was looking has managed to find a new job by now. So, at least the Boston area is starting to look up a little.

If you just finished school you better have some internship experience. Also, don't demand too much money. I've seen people ask for 60K who just came out of school. For that kind of money one can hire a skilled person with experience nowadays.

Oh and if you procrastinated through out college you are fucked. I have friends who if today came to me for a job I wouldn't hire. It is sad but true.

You're right. I wouldnt hire anyone except 2 former students of my class knowing whats available out there and the market situation. This is the only reason I'm happy about the tech bust. Just like theoretical physicists, only the dedicated and interested geeks enter the market, not that joe who couldnt choose a major in the first year and decided to go with CS because it was lucrative and he could format his C drive.

Certs have gained great importance in this industry for a reason. I know many with 3.8+ GP

After a 7 month period of no job, i can say it is rough out there. The tech companies in my area are VERY picky now about who they hire, and they pay a LOT less. I knew of one big financial firm that wanted a webmaster/developer/Unix SA and were willing to pay 35k for it, and that was the upper max.

Also, be prepared to move to different parts of the country. From what I hear, Silicon Valley isnt so hot any more, but other areas, like Conn. and Raleigh/Durham, NC are much better.

HR won't pay anything near normal pay, people coming in are 20-30K less, and with that pay, no experienced professional will take the job. So we get people with hardly any experience, and putting them in important roles, is a joke. And of course, I have to train them, little annoyed as it increases my work week by 20 hours.

I'm currently the lead of our group, so I know our entire network, backup solutions, console, processes, parts and repair, everything. We

One thing I don't understand is why companies (not just yours, but many others) are actually cutting back on telecommuting during these "tough times". You would think that companies would be more likely to embrace telecommuting since it'll save them money in the long run.

One of the so-called advantages of offshore outsourcing is that you don't need to pay to lease office space and its associated costs (toilet paper, janitors, heating and air conditioning, etc). It would seem like you could get the same c

I think a lot of it is 'greener grass' syndrome. Here in NYC, we hear its better elsewere. Out there, they think NYC is the better place to be. Like I said in my first post, be prepared to move, because you just might have to.

^^ What he said! ^^ It ain't greener here in Raleigh, NC. I've been out of work since October and am just now getting to the in-person interview stage with about 10 companies (actually had 7 interviews THIS week, which is outstanding). I have skills and 10+ years of solid experience and performance in IT (technology and leadership/management), but there is such a GLUT of other techies out there now, it's hard for even someone like me to differentiate myself.

RDU might be better than it was a year or two ago but it is still pretty bad. I had to leave Raleigh/Durham for Philadelphia because of the lousy job market. Keep in mind I'm a more senior level geek with 10 years in the market (10 years working with MS technologies, 7 years with Linux & Solaris).

I remember going to a TriBUG [tribug.org] meeting where every single person there was laid off. These were senior level UNIX geeks, and not one of them could find work. The other UG I was involved in, TriLUG [trilug.org], was doing

dont show all the people out of work, they only show the people still able to collect unemployment. The news is currently reporting figures of 5-6%, the real figures are probably more like 10%. I used to have a link that talked about this, sorry.

Unemployment benefits only last 26 weeks, + an extra 13 weeks if you qualify for the extension. So it is not simply that someone is "stupid" enough not to collect their unemployment, it could have run out. If unemployment benefits were guarranteed for life why would anyone work??
Chuck

Unemployement rates are also verified with household surveys. In many cases such surveys find that people who have been unemployed have actually found employment by starting a small business etc. that doesn't show up in normal employment roles. Usually the household survey rate is fairly close to the number generated from unemployment insurance recipients.

The only time I've heard something in the 10% range was an NPR story about underemployment. Specifically it was talking about people with specialized skills like an engineer or airline pilot only finding work at Home Depot. That story put the combined unemployment and underemployment rate at 9.6%.

No, he's thinking 'if 'unemployed' is stated as 'is collecting unemployement benefits,' what are you if you're still not working when those benefits run out?'

If out of 100 people, 5 are collecting unemployement benefits, but 5 more have been unemployed for over a year, and have no more benefits to collect, then is your unemployement rate 5 percent, or 10 percent?

The unemployment numbers released by the feds are supposed to be everyone who is actively looking for a job. The folks who are getting benefits are easy to count, but the Feds are supposed to do some surveys and monkey around with statistics to get the right value. I am not confident in the number, but those 5 people who have been unemployed for over a year AND ARE STILL ACTIVELY LOOKING FOR A JOB should be counted.

Should folks who want a job, but aren't actively looking because they're waiting for the j

They actually maintain 6 different figures, with the one hovering around 5% being the one that gets reported in the media. The actual number of people really unemployment (as I take it to mean not having a job) is up around 9%-10%.

Hopefully you majored in something useful like management or accounting so that you don't have to worry about finding a job when you get out. Keep computers and programming as your hobby and let your other work pay the bills.

If you still have some money, think about pursuing a professional degree (JD, MBA, etc.). Demand for these never dips.

Because A whole slew of articles in business magazines have been talking about how the success of outsourcing IT has given Corporate America all sorts of interesting ideas. Like outsourcing "non-core" departments, like HR, Payroll, Accounting, legal research, business forecasting and strategy, almost all of middle management...

You DID know about that, right? Cause if you weren't joking, boy are YOU in for a shock...:)

Yeah... Is this depressing or what? It looks like Corporate America wants everyone to work in Wal Mart (or as a landscaper for less than minimum wage, or a security guard, or... Etc.).

But they can't get rid of ALL the jobs. The working and middle classes get their revenge every time a plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic skins a rich suit alive. "Well, Mr. Manager, looks like the old Beemer is gonna need a new Carburetor... It's an import, and it's in an awkward spot, so that'll be a grand, five hundred

I started programming computers professionally when I was 12 years old - it started as a hobby, but fortunately for me in 1982 anyone with any sort of production experience with computers could find work. Lucky for me I was interested in filesystems work back then - that seriously propelled me into the stratosphere as a working programmer.

It hasn't changed - I still code for the fun of it, but it has fed me all these years quite well.

If you still have some money, think about pursuing a professional degree (JD, MBA, etc.).

Not so sure about that. I can see things like radiology, where the images may be transmitted digitally, could be outsourced and eventually offshored (NAFTA I believe provides some sort of license transparency, and even if it doesn't, you could possible form a company where the dr.s get licensed in US but operate out of another country)

Even within the US though, companies are probably trying to replace higher cost dr

Unless you and everybody else in your department and/or company lost your job simultaneously, chances are VERY GOOD that it's because you sucked and were gunned early on because it was relatively less painful to do so then, for instance, to go without free coffee.

If you still aren't working, chances are you should have never been in the field in the first place. There's jobs. They exist. Some of them are specialized. Some of them are stupid.

If you still aren't working, chances are you should have never been in the field in the first place.

Great advice, dick! Maybe you should consider the fact that some of the most talented people in the industry are wholly untalented at looking for work. I learned this at my current position, there are very people who've been there for years without much of a raise, but they just aren't good at looking for something better.

I think I'm slightly above average for the industry in my looking for work skills,

If you still aren't working, chances are you should have never been in the field in the first place. There's jobs. They exist. Some of them are specialized. Some of them are stupid.

So if I was into specialized career A and that has gone to shit, but there are tons of jobs in Specialized career B, I should have realized 10 years ago this was going to happen and picked Career path B?

No one can predict the future, but you always have to be prepared to apply your current skills to new jobs, no matter how un-related the 2 might seem. We have to continually mold ourselves around what is available until the time comes when we can control our own destiny a bit more.

If we were faced with the kind of misery and suffering on a daily basis that the Indians are, well...you probably wouldn't be out of a job.

Not to be excessivly ignorant here, but India historically has been fucked up on Religion (tm), and people get the government they deserve. If I was faced with that kind of suffering and misery, I would endeavour to change it. Or die trying. That's what happened in North America, or at least, the US.

Unless you and everybody else in your department and/or company lost your job simultaneously, chances are VERY GOOD that it's because you sucked

Or because the company's finances got so bad they had to make cuts across the board in every department. I've seen it happen in a previous job, and it happened to me. It was either that or everyone had to take a pay cut, and management figured it was better to have fewer overworked employees rather than a bunch of underpaid ones. So no one was given the option

According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics,
the
unemployment rate [bls.gov] in the "information" section was 7.2% in December 2002 and 6.5% in December of 2003. The actual number of unemployed was 255K in 12/2002 and 224 in 12/2003.

this doesn't take into account the people that left the field though. So if an information person lost their job, but then start working in a different field they won't be counted as unemployed for the information section. Then there are also people that get too old for work. They also don't count as unemployeed if you stop looking for a job. Basically, that statistic is pretty much worthless. sorry to disappoint you.

The SAGE/SANS/BigAdmin survey done for 2002 says that 15.3% of thier respondants were unemployed for at least a week during the year (I don't have a link offhand, but Google might). They won't post the 2003 survey until March, but I would be suprised if 2003 was worse than 2002.

I've gotten calls from two recuiters looking for people in the last week. I think I got a grand total of 0 calls in 2002, and maybe a couple in 2003. I think people are realizing that not everything can be moved offshore and that programmers with domain/business experience are actually worth what you pay them here in the states. Dell, for example, is moving some of thier IT facilities back to the US after outsourcing it to India.

I hate to jinx it, but I think the worst is over. It may not be 1999 again anytime soon, but the storm clouds are clearing.

I know of several people who specialize in various areas who are getting 7-8 calls from recruiters a week, mostly for 6 month contracts.

If you are a "computer guy" or webmonkey, Apu in Bangalore has rendered you irrelevant. Database, network and "enterprise" software experts will always be in high demand, at least until the Indians get more experience.

The SAGE/SANS/BigAdmin survey done for 2002 says that 15.3% of thier respondants were unemployed for at least a week during the year

OK, but that's a fairly meaningless number. I was technically unemployed for a week in 2001, but that was only the gap between leaving one job and starting the next. Unemployed needs to be more tightly defined as "no job at present and no next job in sight". Unemployed for over a month would be a better measure, as it's rarer to go that long between jobs unless something has

I think people are realizing that not everything can be moved offshore and that programmers with domain/business experience are actually worth what you pay them here in the states. Dell, for example, is moving some of thier IT facilities back to the US after outsourcing it to India.

Actually Dell is moving one particular CALL CENTER facility (the one that handles large corporate accounts, if memory serves) back to the US. I would hardly call this an IT facility. While I have the utmost respect for call

The difference I see between the people complaining about the lack of work and the people working in the IT industry is USUALLY the people working know what they're talking about, know how to do their job, and work for a moderate amount of cash.

The CCNA/MSCE C+ this A+ that guys I know are working at Office Max waiting on the 6 figure job thats going to set them free.

The real problem is that many in the industry simply don't know how to get a job. First, there is the group of people who were working for a company for 10+ years that got laid off. The job market is very different now than it was, so most aren't prepared. Second, people who got into the business during the boom never had to learn any real skills when it came to landing jobs, so now that companies are picky they are losing out.

The way to find a job is through networking. There is simply no better way, so if you are unemployed and not networking you might need to rethink your situation.

How is this insightful? No matter what the marketing and networking skills of the unemployed, it won't make any new jobs! This sort of thing might let you scramble to the top of the pile but only at the expense of others - it's got nothing to do with the overall employment rate.

A lot of people, including myself, are former IT workers who have found other non-IT jobs to make ends meet. Personally, I now have a job that I like, because it's in one of my hobbies (pinball)! It's filling orders for pinball parts. I do this, and various other things, and now get to set my own hours (as long as the work gets done and I hit the post office each day before it closes)!

I thought about my close friends, and realized the numbers break down pretty much into thirds

Neat. Mail order? Mind me asking who you work for? I'll want to buy more pinball parts sometime... once I find a new job, that is.(15 years experience in compiler development - will generate code for food.)

I haven't worked in computers since I got my Degree. I have been selling mobile phones for the last two years since graduation. This is despite having 2 years of work experience in network / system admin with the civil service, a degree in computer science, and a real interest in my subject. The best thing I could have done would have been to work for the local computer company (Evesham Micros) at 18 - they were hiring back then.

Selling phones isn't too bad, but I have to resort to reading slashdot on

It's not that simple. When an application makes a company a million dollars an hour, or looses in fines a million dollars an hour, don't you want someone that knows more than which button to click? Wouldn't you want them to know how the computer works and not just the fiddled once with the GUI that might fix the problem or make it worse? The whole IT world isn't made up of Windows file and print servers which aren't missed when they are unavailable several days per month.

That would be looking at computers as if they will never have a problem, a need for an upgrade, a need for someone to watch after the logs, a need for someone to take care of user land apps... Just to name a few things that someone who doesn't have any experience wouldn't be able to do cost effectively. You don't want someone who is just reading a manual attempting to administer your database or upgrading holes in an operating system. If they screw up, your down time and possible lost data will be a nigh

It's pretty sad really, he has dual lcd's and 5 test stations in his office. A really pretty looking dell and far overpriced rack for the servers. Anytime something goes wrong, bam my cell phone starts ringing. He makes twice what I do and his job is basically calling me to fix anything that goes wrong.

Why does any company have a mailroom? Or a copy shop. I know how to run a copy machine, and I can put a stamp on an envelope. In truth though, there is a lot of work involved in copies and stamps that isn't visiable from the outside.

I've seen presidents drop 50 pages in a document feeder on the copier, if he can handle it why does the company have a copy room? Answer: because the company sometimes publishes manuals more than a copy or two. The president would make 2 copies of that 50 page document,

The high rate of employment in IT has been of concern to me. My neice recently graduated from Gonzaga. I worried she might not be able to find employment in her field (Computer engineering), but she was picked up almost immediately by a defense contracter in southern California. According to her, they interviewed 200 graduates and hired well over 50 of them.

It makes me think companies are opting to fill open positions with younger people whom they can hire at a much lower salary.

According to her, they interviewed 200 graduates and hired well over 50 of them.

You might not quite understand how defense contracting works. That company either recently got a new contract or think they will get a new contract, so they are hiring bodies to fill up the job descriptions. That contract might last six months or five years (only god and the program managers know), but I'm generally suspicious of any contractor doing a 50-out-of-200 hiring frenzy like that.

There is a company I used to work for that is doing exactly this. They fired/let go/lost to attrition about 1/2 their staff. They are replacing them with overseas programmers or new graduates. The parent company - operated in Canada, with offices in Bahamas for tax reasons - is going to pick up 1/2 the first year of pay for new college graduates making their budget numbers look great.

I was going to apply for a job there, but was told that it's not really open, they just advertise for a minimum number of

I just graduated in December, and don't have a job. Been spending my days firing off resumes. Only one interview so far, for a job I applied to at the end of October. Had one recruiter call and ask if I was interested in working in a call center, I explained that I didn't spend all this time in college to answer phones. Otherwise, no bites really.

Want to do some sort of network or system admin type work, but it seems everyone wants 3 - 5 years experience -- not much "entry level" stuff out there. Of c

>> ask if I was interested in working in a call center...
>> not much "entry level" stuff out there

If you don't have the logical skills to connect these two points, I certainly woulnd't hire you. It's tough right now, take a job.

I had trouble a couple of years ago, the company (where I was a System Engineer) folded, I eventually took a job installing cable modems and TV. Working hard, and showing that I was competent got me a promotion to Trainer within a few weeks. When THAT company folde

My Advice, bullshit a couple years experience if you are confident you can wing it. Then apply for a job at a tech shop.

Here on slashdot you hear about in house staff and network admins in the sense of people who actually work for the company they admin the network for. That's true in a fortune 500 or a large business, but the large business's call outside expertise in when they need work done, and small businesses don't have inhouse techs at all.

For another I never said anything about fibbing about what you know how to do. I advised him to get a job the only way it is possible for him and gain some legitimate experience. Aside from that, I've yet to meet anyone with a legitimate resume.

Whether it's creating a phantom job (easy enough to do, I've known people who created phantom companies and had a girlfriend answer the phone. I had co-workers at Sony who used this trick to get hired).

When you need money, you work. Jobs are what you make of them, call center or no call center. Many corporations like to start people on the ground floor and bring them up in the organization. Its not the gogo 90's anymore, you have to WORK for a living now. There is a serious disconnect between expectations and reality in current graduates I am afraid.... It got really out of hand in the late 90's when college grads could demand 60k+ and get it. Those times are gone. Most college grads get 25-40k/yr in norm

Congratulations on your degree. You are right to be proud of your accomplishment, but it's an accomplishment you share with tens of millions of others, so stop being so goddamned arrogant. In a competitive field where a college degree is an entry requirement, you are at the bottom rung of the career ladder. Very few companies are going to trust you with anything other than entry level work before giving you the opportunity to undertake some real challenges.

Good luck finding a sysadmin position, I've supported thousands of users in a large medical center, servers running critical applications, but I had to work my way from from a field tech position(actually it's the best way to learn)lost my job due to a bad decision and politics and outsourcing. Haven't been steadily employed since 02. You might want to take anything to get your foot in the door....

I explained that I didn't spend all this time in college to answer phones.

Um, I didn't spend all that time getting two degrees in college, and working for 16 years in IT (most of that at the analyst/sysadmin level) to answer phones, either. Guess what I now spend nearly half of my time doing every week? (The other half is spent replacing bad keyboards, unjamming printers, installing software, and troubleshooting dead network connections.)

> I explained that I didn't spend all this time in college to answer phones.

I bet you didn't spend all this time in college to spend days firing off resumes, getting only one interview and still be unemployeed after one month and then posting it on slashdot. Think about that before you wave off a job like that.

4 guys worked for me in 20021 was layed off in May 2002. spent about 5 months searching before hire.1 was layed off in Jan 2003. He is still unemployed after 12 months of heavy searching.1 was layed off in Apr 2003. spent 7 months finding a position before hire.1 was layed off in Sep 2003. No leads, still searching.I was layed off in Oct 2003. 8 interviews. still searching.

I would prefer multiple part-time, off-site sysadmin gigs. I have performed remote administration for the past 10 years. It would save

I was unemployed for the first six months of 2003.Around the time that the war in Iraq started, the job market dried up _completely_. Agencies were blatantly inventing vague pseudo-vacancies just to have something to advertise. I knew it was really really _really_ bad when at one point I saw a job advertisement asking for an "experienced software engineer" to "valet monitors and keyboards for a couple of hours a week."Things did eventually start to pick up again, but I have friends in the industry who are s

My software company closed their doors the other month, putting 35 poeople out of work, including 12 programmers 1 sys admin and 3 graphics guys. It's been about 7 weeks now, and no one has found work yet. I am searching 4 different states (the one's where i have family/local addresses) with over 45 applications put out. 3 years programming (.NET and Java) and 3 years systems admin (UNIX/NT) and still NOTHING...not even a call or an interview (except for recruiters, which don't count...offering a mere 3

The trick is networking. Several other posts have said the same thing.

Ever single job I've ever gotten, I've gotten through networking. Seriously. Even the first one when I was fresh out of school.

The problem is most geeks aren't good at networking. Networking is NOT calling up the people you know and asking them for a job. Here is how I do it when I'm really serious about it (i.e., want to find a new job NOW):

1. Spend some time and come up with a good 30 sec. explanation of what sort of job I want.

Remember that in the US if you are unemployed for more than 2 years you are not unemployeed anymore, you are counted as "not in the work force." IT unemployment in MN as far as I can gather is around 30%. I was at a recent meeting for Minneapolis Study the statistics and you'll find that, if you are unemployeed for more that 2 years you magically disappear from the unemployment statistics. Keep this in mind when looking at any statistics about unemployment. MY Grandmother pointed out that in her town during the depression there was 0% unemployment according to US statistics, that because the entire population was either working or had been unemployeed for more that 2 years...

Just lost my job this week, and I've already had two serious responses. Unfortunatly both were in California. (I'm not a fan of the politics that rule in CA, I happen to like winter, and my family isn't there. I'd live there though if it paid the bills) Still last time I lost my job it was a few recruiters here and there looking at me, now it feels more serious. So things are still hard, but at least there is some movement towards hiring. I just hope I don't fall for a pay raise that after higher co

Where I currently work (IT shop for a network of hospitals), we have dozens (most of the new hires in the last 2 years I've been here) of people who basically took their job just to have a job. VPs who are now Business Analysts, Technical Service Managers now Level 2 Project Managers (basically project plans and meeting minutes), DBAs now data-entry technicians, trained technical L2 Help Desk people working normal call center jobs, Level 3 support geeks working the repair counter at Best Buy, etc. etc.

The unemployment rate is probably not the best indicator of what the job market really looks like.

If you pick up the newspaper and read that there's only 6% unemployment, knowing that anything under 5% is considered inconsequential, you might wonder why jobs seem so scarce.

But if you look at the layoff numbers, those are currently double what they were in 1999. Then you look at new job creation. In 1999, when the economy was full steam, new jobs were being created at around 200,000 plus per month, often e

I am going to graduate with my CE degree this spring. The best advice i can give to students in college with a cs,ce,ee major is internships. I interned at Qualcomm this summer and now have an almost guranteed job in the test group i was in and I am not above taking that and have prospects in devlopment posistions in other divisions of the company. Also having a big name like qualcomm toping my experience section of my resume and some good refrences from there i am sure it will help a little with my job sea

Here in Dallas that got massacred by 9/11, Enron and Worldcom, things are picking up. I've seen the Monster postings quadruple in the last 3 months.
Of course the ad for an Oracle/SQL/DB2/PHP programmer with 5+ years experience sounds great until you see that they are only paying $28 an hour.
I couldn't stop laughing when I saw that ad. I was sooo tempted to put in my resume.

That depends on what you mean by IT. If you're going for a Computer Science or Computer Engineering degree, there are jobs. If you're going for an Information Technology degree, forget it. The former will get you a job programming. The latter will get you in a line with all the other former support staff.