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Re: Are all #1s Offensive Types?

my own stance of the databooks, they're NOT the manga, the databooks is not a story there's no content telling of all that has transpired, no that's the MANGA, as it is and has the story of Claymore, the MANGA has the story from ch 1 to ch 117, not the databooks. For me the databooks is even more irrelevant than the anime, because at least the anime is a story-telling of Claymore, a slightly different version (the last few episodes) from the manga and thus it's not the manga, but-whereas as I said, the databooks has NO story-telling version of Claymore at all. The databooks is completely irrelevant "in my book" (sorry for the bad pun here, hehe, lol).

I'm only concerned with understand the manga, and the databooks is not the manga, it's irrelevant to me.

If Yagi wants the databooks' content to be relevant for me, than he needs to put it into the manga as a normal chapter or as an "extra-special" chapter like the 4 he already has done.

------

this is my own literary's and researcher's view, if you want the databooks relevant, that's certainly your perogative lol, but I do not give nor see any relevance to it, as I'm only concerned with understanding the manga's version of the story of Claymore, and not any other outside-irrelevant sources, be they the anime, a fan-fic, or the databooks.

Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 13, 2011 at 10:04 PM.

"The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

"I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

Re: Are all #1s Offensive Types?

Hi WSK:

I understand HK's position regarding the data book. Perhaps, I'm biased because I share the same opinion. I've never seen the actual data book, just mere scans that have been posted on various forums. If I recall, it basically gives numerical ranking of power skills and abilities. I doubt that Yagi, as a story teller, actually had a hand in creating that data book.

The threads provide a means of discussing events that occurred in the actual manga. As such, IMHO the data book doesn't have any bearing, since it's a third party addendum. In the Endless Gravestone arc, Ophelia stated the difference in what ultimately decides whether a warrior becomes offensive or defensive. Basically, if you think that aggression is the best way of achieving self preservation, then you fall in the offensive category.

To be honest, you can look either way in regards to the data book. It's purely a matter of perspective and in what you find relevant or applicable.

Last edited by wickedsmile; August 14, 2011 at 07:05 PM.

I don't want to die. Even if that makeshift family was all nothing more than an illusion, doomed to someday fall apart. I so wish, so wish, it could have lasted the tiniest bit longer. - Norihiro Yagi

Re: Are all #1s Offensive Types?

Currently, I believe all of the #1 Claymore's shown have been offensive. However, I don't think we can accurately guess the types of some as it seems the line blurs the stronger you are, #1 or not. Case and point Miata and Priscilla, who appears to be both. Also the Abyssal Ones, though not the level of Devene, seem to have great regenerative ability, when not being pressured by strong opponents.

He believes that Offensive and Defensive Types (For now on: Offensive Type = OT and Defensive Type = DT, as I don’t want to keep writing them out obviously) are accurately explained by Ophelia as can be seen here: ch 35 pgs ~28-29, and ch 36 pgs 4-5. He believes that OT and DT determine and/or limit what abilities they can do.

Some Quick Comment about Ophelia:

Ophelia is also shown knowing about “regenerating” back Human body parts, like a high level offensive type like Irene can do, as will be told to us in just a few chapters later on.

Ophelia is also quite perceptive too, instantly recognizing Clare’s PYSA, her faked death (well thanks to Clare holding onto her sword arm anyways) and that Clare had set up their entire battle, and how the Quick Sword works.

Strangely, Awakened Ophelia no longer thinks that Clare is an Awakened, when she had as a Claymore.

My Disagreement with his argument:

this seems to be the case, but when I examine the content, as can be seen below, I have a different and opposing understanding of it, and so I am in disagreement with his view that DT and OT determine abilities.

Instead, I believe that DT and OT really mean nothing but the polar personalities, and have no significance or effect upon what abilities they can do.

My Argument:

(Ch 33 pg ~27) Claymore Ophelia remains unaware that Awakening can be resisted and of HAs (Half-Awakeneds), despite having seen earlier with Miria resisting Awakening when she learned the AB she killed on her 3rd AB Hunt was Hilda (which turned Miria into an HA, the first known HA incident, and known by Rubel as Ophelia reported it to him but never understood what she had witnessed as I’ve already shown here) and seeing Clare save Raki from the Gonahl female AB, as she incorrectly thinks that Clare must be an Awakened, and is now excited, “getting to kill two Awakeneds”.

Ophelia is only a rank 4 and she’s new, so she doesn’t understand much about things, such as offensive and defensive types in my argument at how it actually doesn’t determine and/or limit their abilities, which I’m leading up to, getting to, as is my argument, lol.

However, to be forthcoming, fair, and honest, Galatea too (and nearly everyone, such as Jean - ch 46 pg ~34)) is unaware that Awakening can be resisted just like Ophelia is unaware, in fact she first learns about it from spying upon Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare against the “Spiderman” male AB as she saw (after the battle) Deneve go to or over 80% YR to Heal or Regenerate her fatal wound, without becoming an Awakened, as confirmed in ch 45 pgs ~18-19. Galatea then later tests this with using Yoki Synchronization (which she knew already about from her own secret investigations into the past, ch 45 pg 22: learning about Luciela, as well as Riful and Isley, and the Soul Link, and is, ch 45 pg ~8, a part anyways with her Yoki Manipulation Ability too) to align with HA Clare and lower HA Clare’s Yoki back down below 80% YR in the Witches Maw Battle (ch 45 pgs ~18-19), preventing HA Clare from Awakening (or maybe HA Clare wasn’t going to Awaken... but that’s another discussion in-of-itself, lol). Clare instantly learns what Galatea had done (Yoki Synchronization) and does it to prevent Jean from Awakening, turning Jean into a HA. And, Jean too learned what Clare had done and will later do the same, preventing Partially Awakening (PA) HA Clare from becoming an Awakened after the Pieta battle (and the killing of Rigardo by Clare).

Irene is much older and extremely wise or knowledgeable as a Claymore. Her Quick Sword is much like PA, controlling and restricting the Yoki to a certain part of the body or at whatever location (I call this Yoki ability, the Yoki Focusing Ability, YFA). Irene is a very advanced and powerful Claymore able to do amazing things. Indeed, she could very well be a rank 1 Claymore. The only Claymore more wise or knowledgeable than Irene is Rafaela and Teresa. Yes, Irene messes up with egregiously with Teresa and Priscilla as can be seen used in the Teresa vs Priscilla debates, but really, Teresa and Priscilla is like us trying to comprehend the 14 trillions of dollars we’re in debt, Teresa and Priscilla are simply incomprehensible monsters, which even Irene failed to comprehend or understand accurately.

(Ch 38 pg ~23) Irene can indeed regenerate back a Human arm

(Ch 40 pg ~33) Awakened Ophelia says she can Regenerate now.

(Ch 45 pg ~9) Riful explains that Yoki Abilities, are matched up against each other in terms of Power, like in a game, how your ToHit is compared to a monster’s AC, and the difference is your actual ToHit chance. For a Yoki Ability to work and/or how effective/powerful it is, it depends on the power levels of the user or the user’s abiltity and that of the target or the target’s ability. For an example in Claymore, Yoki Sensing Ability (YSenA) is compared to the target’s Yoki Suppression Ability (YSupA), the difference is whether the target can even be sensed or to what degree that the target can be sensed. With Galatea’s Yoki Manipulation Ability (YMA), it’s Galatea’s power level compared to Dauf’s power level, and due to Dauf’s much greater power level, Galatea’s YMA is powerless to effect him. Now, it’s a bit more complicated, as in addition to power level, there’s also the issue of mental focus or concentration too, as when Dauf is mentally distracted by Galatea’s verbal battle banter and comments, it’s a “loop hole”, which allows her YMA to work despite Dauf’s power level being far to great for her YMA to work normally. Because a mentally distracted target, isn’t using their full power, as the brain is diverted elsewhere (like to processing and thinking about what Galatea is saying to him and his subsequent doubt or mistaken-ness in how he seemingly can’t hit her and her seeming control of him, Dauf).
This is an important point, because it shows that power level vastly matters with abilities, and thus explains that Awakened Ophelia’s newfound ability to Regenerate, might not be merely due to her now being Awakened, but due to her greater power level, being now powerful enough to do Regeneration, where she wasn’t powerful enough as a Claymore.

I will provide more evidence for this later on.

Ch 47 pg ~27, Dauf can Regenerate, but we don’t know if he’s OT or DT.

Proof that Awakeneds can’t Regenerate from just being Awakeneds. Proof that Regeneration is solely based upon power level and not DT/OT:

ch 59 pg 8 and Ophelia’s being unable to Regenerate as a Claymore but able to Regenerate as an Awakened.

------------------------------------------

Alright, I can’t find so far any other instance of DT/OT explanation other than mainly Ophelia’s. So, as of right now I was mistaken on this part, however my argument remains as I was just confused at what the source of my argument was that I had made long ago before this debate that I’m responding to now had resurfaced, as Ophelia does mention both explanations of DT and OT, but which is the correct one: that DT and OT have no actual baring upon abilities and its just a matter of personalities at most, or that DT and OT do effect what their abilities can be.

My argument is that DT and OT in fact do only reference the personality aspect, and have no baring upon abilities. Yes, it might be “easier” for DTs to do defensive abilities like Regeneration and OTs to do offensive abilities like Sword Techniques, but that in no way means that OTs can’t do defensive abilities and nor that DTs can’t do offensive aiblities, as I’ve already started to prove with evidence, and with more below as well, in the quote below.

Instead of abilities based upon DT and OT, they’re based upon power levels. High level abilities require high power levels and enough remaining Yoki to actually do them, as is proven by the Yoki depleted AOs (Riful and Isley) being unable to Regenerate themselves and with Deneve too as well.

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

Offensive types can regenerate. Here's why (with 3 examples of direct proof from the manga in "sections" A, B1, and B2 below): 1. The manga never says that offensive types can't regenerate, only that it is harder (My theory: requires more yoki) for them to do so, and easier (My theory: requires less yoki) for defensive types to do so.
1. & 2. Ophelia (at the bottom of the river against Clare, before Irene shows up) and Irene (in her chat with Clare during their training of the Quick Sword in the crater-shaped mountain valley) gives us the only explanation about why there's offensive types and defensive types, and what they are.
According to Ophelia and Irene:
An offensive type Claymore is simply one whom cares more about killing their opponent then their own survival or life or "living to fight another day", and whom protects those they care about, indirectly, by trying to kill the one whom is attacking/threatened those that they care about.
A Defensive type Claymore is simply one whom cares more about their own survival or life or "living to fight another day" than anything else, and whom will directly try to protect others by defensively protecting them (like by parrying, blocking, stopping attacks against those others).
3. Offensive types can indeed heal, re-attach, and even regenerate too.
........................................
Regeneration can be done by offensive types: (proof below)
A. chapter 64 page 8. Rubel to Rafaela: "What's with that left eye? Even if you're an offensive type, you should be able to regenerate it."
B1. chapter 88 page 7. Deneve to Helen: "Retrieve your right hand! Start regenerating it right away, along with your eye!"
B2. chapter 88 page 25. Helen (an offensive type): "My arm's re-attached, but I'm having some trouble with this eye. I might not be able to regenerate it."
......................................
C. Even Dauf (an offensive type) can regenerate too.
D. The Abyssal Ones (offensive types) can regenerate too.
E. Priscilla can regenerate too. It is unknown whether Priscilla is an offensive type or defensive type, as she was determined to kill Teresa, even at the cost of her humanity and risked her life to do so as well, though obviously we've seen time and again, how Priscilla doesn't want to die also. Thus, we don't really know what type Priscilla is.
F. The Abyss Feeders/Eaters can regenerate as well.
G. Awakened Ophelia (an offensive type) could regenerate, whereas she said that she couldn't when she was still a Claymore.
4. Defensive types can indeed have sword techniques and use their yoki powers/abilities for offensive purposes.
Audrey, a defensive type, has her "Gentle Sword" sword technique
Galatea, a defensive type, can use her yoki to increase the rate at which her (offensive) power rises.
5. My theory about Regeneration:
Fact: When the Abyssal Ones use up too much of their yoki, they can not regenerate (and Riful and Luciela can't maintain their Awakened forms as well).
Therefore, Regeneration requires a certain amount of yoki. Since it is harder for offensive types to regenerate, it means that they need more yoki to regenerate, then defensive types do. Therefore, offensive types have to be more powerful in order to regenerate then defensive types have to be.
Strong proof of this is that Awakened Ophelia (an offensive type) could regenerate, whereas she said (and she was probably was accurate/correct) that she couldn't when she was still a Claymore. As a Claymore, Ophelia didn't have enough power (or yoki) to be able to regenerate, and thus she thought (wrongly) that offensive types couldn't regenerate. However, in Awakening, Ophelia became much more powerful, and now she was powerful enough to be able to regenerate, and was going to do so if Clare hadn't killed her, despite being an offensive type.
Also we have (Awakened) Dauf, whom is just barely able to regenerate (taking him ~ weeks to months to do so). Dauf must just barely have enough power to regenerate. He's just above the "line" to regenerate or not.
Now look at offensive type Rafaela (rank 2, but whom has the same power level as rank 1 Abyssal One Luciela according to Rubel), whom can regenerate according to Rubel.
Also we got offensive type rank 22 Helen (whom is much more powerful due to being a HA and a Ghost), whom according to Deneve and Helen herself, is able to regenerate (but not her eye, lol).
Then, obviously we got the powerful Abyssal Ones, whom thus can regenerate.
Also, we got uber powerful Priscilla whom can regenerate.
Finally, we got the very powerful Abyss Feeders, whom can regenerate.
More about Regeneration (chapter 79 pages 3-4, specifically page 4): Regeneration, regardless of offensive or defensive type, is based upon their MEMORY of the appearance of that body part they want/need to regenerate. Therefore, even defensive types, are unable to regenerate if they can't remember or don't know what their body part looks like that they want/need to regenerate. Thus, the longer a Claymore goes before regenerating, the harder it is for them to remember what that part of their body looked like, and thus they can no longer regenerate it, even if regeneration is other-wise easy for them. (Galatea, with Cynthia "nodding" in agreement, explains this to Miria, whom asks her about her missing eyes, after they had killed Agatha)
All (well maybe not all, but at least some) Claymores (defensive or offensive), if they are unable to regenerate their Claymore body parts back, can still regenerate their body parts back, but they'll actually be human body parts instead (strangely, which I don't understand why yet, even with speculations, well except for one speculation dealing with the Memory mechanic of Regeneration, as I described above).

"The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

"I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

Re: Are all #1s Offensive Types?

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

Dauf must just barely have enough power to regenerate. He's just above the "line" to regenerate or not.

Another theory is... Dauf has enough yoki power to regenerate faster. However since regenerate relies on memory, Dauf may be too stupid to remember how to regenerate properly. He would have to "think real hard" to try to remember a bodypart he lost.

Re: Are all #1s Offensive Types?

That's possible, but if for me it seems, you remember or you don't, you're able to remember and Regenerate or you're not able to Remember nor Regenerate. And, as we know, time can degrade one's memory of their body parts, as there is a limit to when Regeneration remains possible and when it's not longer possible due to that time-degradation of one's memory.

It's like in real life, as let's say it's 50 years later since you seen your school friend, you either remember what they look like or you don't, there's no partial memory nor "slowly remembering", lol. You remember them instantly and in full appearance, or you don't, lol. I'm not talking about seeing this friend again nor seeing a picture of him, which obviously should "jog" your memory back, lol. I'm talking about actually trying to remember, trying to imagine in your mind, a school friend's appearance whom you haven't seen for 50 years.

Also, just to note, in re-reading the manga for something unrelated, I learned that it's even the same for Re-Attachment too. As Re-Attachment requires the same memory to Re-Attach as Regeneration needs the memory to "Re-Construct", and thus if one waits too long, they can't Re-Attach body parts, as well as not being able to Regenerate them too. (I can give the source if interested).

Last edited by HegemonKhan; August 15, 2011 at 12:46 AM.

"The internet’s perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain’t one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional “live audience” quickly conspire to create a “perfect storm” of perpetual bickering." - Charlie Brooker

"I hold the wolf by the ears, I am in a dangerous situation and dare not let go" -an old saying in Latin

Re: Are all #1s Offensive Types?

It is impossible to answer that question since we lack enought info about the number 1, we dont even know for sure if the abyssmal ones and priscilla are all offensive or not.

What we do know is, awaken beings due to their massive youki can regenerate alot faster than regular claymores regardless if they were offensive/defensive types, there are some exceptions like Dauf, it is stated by Riful that it takes him alot of time to regenerate due to his massive and hardened body.And Rigardo also couldnt regenerate his arm right away after Clare cut it off, but in general majority of the awaken beings have suberb regenerating abilitys that arent limited or based on their types when they were claymores (in the sense u cant tell if they were offensive/defensive types by how good they are at regenerating after awakening).Take Priscilla as an example she was an offensive type according to the databook, i think nobody here can say that her ability to regenerate as an awaken being is ridiculous fast right?

Also offensive claymores can regenerate to some extend, they can reatache limbs and regenerate their eyes like the dude told Rafaella that she could do it.Whoever they can not grown full limbs back, meaning if their leg/arm is destroyed they lost it forever (refer to Claires fight against Ophelia to check if u dont believe me)

On another note Galathea could regenerate her eyes on her own she just choose not to do it because it made her hiding in the holy town easier, i think it was Tabitha that offered to helf her regenerate her eyes if she needed help but she said it has being so long that she forgot how her eyes looked like or something like that. Most likely it has being so long that even though she has the power to regenerate it herself she dosent remember how it looked like and therefor cant do it.