As I mentioned in another post, a Christian friend invited me to a discussion group on Facebook regarding religion and unbelief. It is dominated by believers who, not surprisingly, can't even agree on whether or not there is an absolute morality and if it comes from God. Jesus. Christ.

I am going to share with you a little bit of this discussion, as it is rather sad. This is from an email with the friend who invited. I am pretty much sure that I just destroyed him, but I'm sure he won't see it. Here it is.

My initial question: Let me ask you this. As a Bible believing Christian, do you or do you not implicitly approve of God's decisions? If not, on what authority do you disagree with God?

His initial response: I may not, at the time, say "Oh that is the best thing" but I know that God knows more than I do and I have seen many times in my own life, when I thought I got wronged and there was no good to come of it and turn out that I was wrong. There are also times, say, working at Raven where I was told to do something that I thought was dumb and made zero sense, but then when I got to the gig it made perfect sense and I would have made the same call.

My rebuttal: What would God have to know in order to justify ordering Saul to slaughter suckling infants? You see, the problem I run into is this. I believe that butchering children is wrong. Period. Done. End of story. There are no exceptions. You clearly do not share this belief. Does God command Saul to kill children because killing children is a good thing (in other words a positive moral action) to do, or is it good because God ordered it? Or, did God order Saul to do something evil? I don't really see any other possibilities, and all of them would seem undesireable. Bottom line, I am not the one who has to explain why I worship a God who, until about 2000 years ago, had no problem routinely ordering the deaths of children. Or ordering people to eat the roasted flesh of their children, or eat cakes made out of dung. I'm not the one who believes in the God that orders this stuff.

It's ASTONISHING to me the amoung of mental and pseudo-logical acrobatics that have to be done by believers such as yourself in order to maintain your cognitive dissonance. So much "interpretation" has to be done that, if you one were to take what you actually believe, and write a Bible based on that, the end result would hardly resemble the original work at all. Furthermore, if the same thing was done for all self proclaimed Christians, there would be as many different versions as there are people, and each one saying that ONLY their interpretation is the correct one. How am I, a non-believer, supposed to take this seriously? This is why there are so many denominations of Christianity, and while many of the differences may be subtle, they have been enough to provoke a considerable amount of violence. Sure, not all Christians react in such an aggressive way, but it has to be rather obvious to you that God used to ORDER such exterminations on a regular basis. You haven't told me that you don't BELIEVE in the OT, just that you are not obligated to follow it's teachings. And why did it take God so long to figure out "Hey, maybe I should try being a little nicer and I'll get a better response"?

Why do you have to go through so much trouble to say that the Bible does not mean what it says, and does not say what it means, and oh thats just a metaphor, that's just a poem, that was just what God told the Israelites, etc etc. Notice that I do not have to explain away my worldview like this. You are constantly having to explain why the world you live in is the same as the world I live in, in other words, why the world you live in operates and appears as though there is NOT a cosmic overlord interfering with the natural order. You have to do SO MUCH to explain why the world you live in is just like a world where there is no God. You think that "God gave us free will" is the answer to that problem. I say that is an obvious cop out, especially considering that that God doesn't really seem to care too much about free will most of the time in the Bible. He is constantly demonstrating his powers in a way that makes the "free will" argument just silly. Thomas asked for evidence that the person standing in front of him was really Jesus resurrected, and HE GOT THAT EVIDENCE. It's not down to Thomas' free will to rely on his faith to believe in Jesus. God mooned Moses. God showed pharaoh his miraculous power in pharaoh's own court, presumably with an audience present. What about the free will of these individuals?

I believe in the theory of evolution (actually, I prefer to say that I accept the theory of evolution as the best explanation for the diveristy of life on this planet due to the overwhelming evidence). The theory of evolution predicts that bacteria will develop resistance to anti-biotics. They do. It predicts that weeds will become resistant to herbicides. They do. It predicts that if hunters shoot only buck with 4 antlers or less, there will in coming years be more buck with larger racks. This is true. If you selectively breed wolves over a period of ten's of thousands of years, you should get vastly different sub-species, all of which are still Canis Lupis. This is also true. A chihuahua is the same species as a Great Pyrenees is the same species as a wolf. If you have ever seen a dog, and it didn't look like a wolf, congratulations, evolution is true. I don't have to explain why the very things that the hypothesis predicts do not occur.

Jesus said that some of those standing before him would not taste death before the end of the world. Those people are all dead. The end of the world has not come. Some Christians object that Jesus meant that their souls wouldn't die, but Jesus' actual audience plainly took it to mean their earthly lives, and in fact early Christianity was in fact a doomsday cult, a kind of Heaven's Gate in Roman times. I think it would honestly be preposterous to assume that one knows Jesus intentions better than his actual audience, for whom this stuff was written anyways, according to the understanding of their culture at the time, right?

His initial Response: I have every right and authority to disagree with God, but it is foolish as far as I am concerned. I think we have free will. You believe that you don’t have free will, but that is a whole other topic.

My Rebuttal: Ah free will. What does that mean? It has some obvious limitations that make it hardly seem a divine gift. If you are about to be murdered, your free will doesn't matter. You can't just make a choice NOT to be murdered. Sure you could possibly take action to prevent it if you were in a position to do so, but you might fail, in which case your choice is again negated. Your free will is trampled on by the free will of the murderer. So, at best, free will is only as strong and ruthless as the person wielding it, which again suggests that any such thing is a human and not a divine quality. Good people will do good things, and wicked people will do wicked things. But to get good people to do wicked things, you need religion.

Oh, and what would happen in the instance of your disagreeing with God? Do you really have a right to dissent if you are punished for doing so? Would I have a right to say "The President sucks" (I don't, incidentally, believe this) if, when I did so, the thought police showed up at my door? NO! It's like saying that people in North Korea have the "right and authority" to criticize the Dear Leader. Sure, you have that right, if you want yourself, your entire family, and all of your family for the next three generations to imprisoned. Wait a minute, punishing the sons for the sins of the father.... sound familiar to you? Doesn't Christianity consider us all guilty for Adam's sin? Isn't that God's decree? Isn't that why we have to accept a human sacrifice in order to be "saved"? Doesn't God frequently say that he punishes the sons for the sins of the father, unto such and such a generation?

My initial question: And let me get this straight. You honestly believe that you are possessed of super human healing powers,

His initial response:See you do this thing where you try to paint me into a corner.

My Rebuttal: I'm pretty sure that JESUS painted you into this corner, my friend (even though he wasn't a painter but a carpenter). If Jesus says his followers (X) WILL be able to do Y, I ask someone who claims to be a true follower (X) if they can do Y. If they can, they might be a true follower, if they can't, then according to Jesus they are not.

His initial response: So if I agree to having super human healing power, I’m obviously crazy/delusional, but if I say that I don’t think I have those powers I am not a Christian. It is a tricky game you play my friend.

My rebuttal: How is asking you to live up to the abilities that your savior himself said that you WILL have playing a tricky game? It would not make you crazy or delusional for you to say that you had there powers if you actually used them and demonstrated that you do in fact have this power. And remember, we are talking about IMPRESSIVE stuff. Jesus said that you would do greater miracles than him. He raised people from the dead, cured blind people, made crippled people walk, and fed thousands of people with a few fish and a couple of loaves of bread. Once again, according to Jesus, you should be able to do way better stuff than that. That is what Jesus said his true followers would be able to do. I noticed when asked on the discussion group what makes a true follower of Christ a true follower of Christ, JoJo stated only HIS opinions on the matter. He doesn't have the strength of his convictions to say "Well Christ says his followers will be possessed of miraculous healing powers that only require us to lay our hands and people will be healed, and I do that stuff everyday, here watch, here comes an old vet in a wheelchair. He's like 90 years old, and is parapalegic due to a spine injury from an anti tank mine in the Netherlands. He has been paralyzed from the waist down for 68 years. But watch this! I touch his legs and Praise the Lord! He can sprint like Usain Bolt. He can leg press 1000 pounds. He can dunk a basketball like Michael Jordan. Praise the Lord!" And then exactly that happened, and it wasn't some sorry hoax done in front of a rock concert style credulous adrenaline fueled audience. No. THAT NEVER HAPPENS, even though the hypothesis (in this case, Jesus himself) says that it should be happening in the case of anyone who is a follower of his for real.

Now, if the hypothesis says that "If X then Y" and "Not Y" is the case, either the person in question is "Not X" or the hypothesis itself is false. Is it really so much to ask that this be demonstrated one way or the other? Why when I asked for this do I just get excuses and evasion? If Darwin's theory predicts that there should be a substantial amount of DNA in common amongst a wide variety of species, diverging in certain patterns, with lesser complexity in older species and greater complexity in newer species, and we find no evidence at all for this, then Darwin's theory is wrong. But, lo and behold, we DO find all of these things to be true, and Darwin's theory is upheld. Even Francis Collins, a brilliant scientist who is also seriously Christian, admits this, and much of this we are aware of because of his very work. What is predicted by the theory happens. What is predicted by yours does not.

His initial response: The thing is that we all have access to Christ, so if we all have the ability to do something, I wouldn't consider it a "super" anything. When asked a similar question to my friend Dr Brown, he said it had to do more with a lack of faith in the area or lack of understanding.

My rebuttal: Well he is just making that up himself to rationalize why neither he nor you can do specifically what Jesus said you would be able to if you were a true believer, and yet still consider yourself a true believer. If I said that I accept the theory of evolution, but don't believe that the things predicted by evolution were true, then in that case what I would believe in would be something OTHER than the theory of evolution. And I agree that everyone having miraculous power would make it seem much less "super", so to speak. That is one of the primary reasons I do NOT believe in miracles. Miracles are trivialized so much, in the common, more proverbial way as well as the religious way. If a plane crashes, and everyone survives, "it's a miracle!". If a plane crashes, and only 3 people out of 150 die, "it's a miracle!". If a plane crashes, and only half the people die, "it's a miracle!". If a plane crashes, and everyone but an infant survives, "it's a miracle!". If a plane crashes and no one survives, but no one on the ground were hurt, "it's a miracle!". If a plane crashes and only 2 people in the heavily populated area die, "it's a miracle!". Basically, no matter what happens, if we can conceive of a less desireable outcome, the situation is a miracle. It's a joke. As far as religious miracles go, well I have never heard of any true ones. It's always someone who was healed of their cancer through prayer (while simultaneously undoing chemo, radiation, and stem cell implants, of course) or someone who survived a potentially awful car accident (myself included, I lost control on a very icy road and slammed head on into one of the state plow trucks. Now, if God suspended the natural order of the universe to save me, an atheist, then at least he has a sense of humor, but isn't it much more likely that I survived uninjured because I was wearing my seat belt, the plow driver tried to steer away from me, and my car bounced into a heavy snowbank (AKA cushion) than the natural order being suspended in my favor?)

his initial Response: I don't understand what the barrier is for you in understanding why Christians now don’t have to follow the mosaic law. We have not been asked to, you need to know the difference between civil, ceremonial and moral laws.

My rebuttal: Can you please then simply show me where Jesus says not to follow the old laws? Where he says that they are abolished? I can not find this anywhere in the Bible. I do find him admonishing people to continue following the law. You can see how this is confusing. Again, when I look at the source, Jesus himself, of what he says his followers should do, I simply ask if that is what you are doing or not, or if you can show me where he says otherwise.

But, if this is inconvenient for said follower, I am told that Jesus does not mean that, we can't just take Jesus at his word, even though you are happy to take him at his word when it DOES match what you yourself believe. This is what non-believers refer to as Self Projection as God, or SPAG. This is why, no matter what the denomination or faith, God always seems to have the same beliefs and values as the given follower, and the only correct interpretation is the one the given follower is practising. This is why you don't go around waving God Hates Fags signs and the Phelps family does. Each of you thinks that you are presenting God's true message, even though they are admittedly largely different, and both can find justification for their beliefs in the very same book.

Each of you believes in a version of the Biblical God that best supports your own value system. The Phelps family is obviously a wretched hive of scum and villainy (it's the Mos Eisley of the US) who cares for nothing except hate, derision, and making other people lead as miserable and meaningless lives as them. You are obviously on the other end of the spectrum, being someone who has an idea of God as idealized through the nicest, warmest, fuzziest parts of the NT and lo and behold, the God that you worship is just like the one you want to! Could it be any more obvious that religion is all man made?!?!?

His initial Response: No offense but I feel like you don’t want to understand cause it doesn't fit what you think the bible is saying, or what you have experienced or what you want a relationship with Christ to look like.

My rebuttal: Well the problem is that I could give the exact same objection to you in fact. It would be easy for me to say tht you don't want to understand because it doesn't fit what YOU think the Bible is saying. I just go by what the Bible says. How can I do otherwise? Which one of the thousands of interpretations, editions, translations, versions, should I go with? I am an intelligent person. I have read a lot of books. I have taken advanced English courses in high school and college, and taken nearly enough philosophy to give me a minor in it. I have taken anthropology courses, and studied both formally and independently quite a bit of mythology, religious history, (to me the same thing), and history in general. I have spent literally days watching debates, lectures, interviews and presentations on YouTube by some of today's top thinkers and scientists. I can think for myself. I can read a work of literature and analyze and scrutinize it, with a considerable amount of background knowledge to draw on. It's not like I am presenting a version of Christianity that was not THE dominant version up until, at the most generous I could be, 200 or so years ago. Maybe your version is a little bit nicer, but that doesn't make it any more true, or any more accurate than any other interpretation, the most important being what the book actually says! It's only to the extent that you ignore all of the nasty stuff that God has done that you can consider yourself a decent person.

Twelve years ago, in one of the first serious looks at the effects of climate change, researchers predicted that New York would suffer extensive damage from flooding in the future because of global warming. Many people laughed at their ridiculous predictions.

It happened. Many of those doubters still don't believe that that change is happening.

Jesus, as the story goes, told us that he would return soon. Two thousand years ago. Many people still believe that he'll be back.

Go figure.

You poured your heart out, kaziglu, and your debate opponent dismissed you with short generalities and wickedly ineffective excuses. You give specifics and he/she barely acknowledge the generalized generalities that are the basis for their every thought.

Reality would be so much more fascinating if we didn't have so many people constantly insisting that it has supernatural qualities and that we benefit from guidance from above.

Like you kaziglu, I refuse to go through life thinking that evidence is a four letter word.

kaziglu bey, I'm developing a bit of an internet crush on you, in a totally non-creepy way. I just read this to my real life BF, and told him that - he approved this message too.

I C&P'ed this into my "favorite posts" file for future reference. I expect to quote you quite liberally with this one. Great job without being a jerk about it - you're far better at that than I've ever been. Much admiration for your style.

Logged

"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

I think maybe a mod should sticky your "rants" next to Kcrady's. Well done.

This may be the most flattering thing that anyone has ever said to me. Have you actually read through the posts in the thread "Kcrady, old school"? That shit is like the nuclear weaponry of religious argument. I could only ever hope to be that good. Thank you though, your compliment is much appreciated.

Twelve years ago, in one of the first serious looks at the effects of climate change, researchers predicted that New York would suffer extensive damage from flooding in the future because of global warming. Many people laughed at their ridiculous predictions.

Yup, and the Titanic was unsinkable too! Lifeboats? Who needs those silly things?

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It happened. Many of those doubters still don't believe that that change is happening.

It really is incredible that people are still in denial about this. Last year was the only year I know of that lake Erie did not thaw over (I live in Erie PA and we are obviously close to the lake, you notice this stuff). That is NOT a good thing. Last year we only got like 47 inches of snow, when our average is over 100. This is also not a good thing. Severe weather of all types, hot and cold, wet and dry, rain and fire, hurricanes and tornadoes and floods worse than ever seen, and the hottest YEAR on record? Nope, everything is perfectly normal here. Drill baby drill!

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Jesus, as the story goes, told us that he would return soon. Two thousand years ago. Many people still believe that he'll be back.

This is one of the most obvious objections in my opinion. Jesus tells the people standing in front of him "I will be back before your die". They die. He ain't back yet. Either Jesus is a liar or a false prophet. I simply won't hear any of that metaphor shit.

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Go figure.

You poured your heart out, kaziglu, and your debate opponent dismissed you with short generalities and wickedly ineffective excuses. You give specifics and he/she barely acknowledge the generalized generalities that are the basis for their every thought.

It is really frustrating, for sure. I mean, if Jesus says that you should have bitchin healing powers, and you SAY you have bitchin healing powers, but just haven't got around to using them yet, I am going to ask "WTF?" It would be like if I had the power to turn mundane objects into gourmet food. If I DIDN'T use that unique gift to help as many hungry people as I could, wouldn't I be failing my fellow humans in my moral obligation to provide an easy service that will only benefit other people? And if I believed that some really special dude gave me these powers specifically to show other people how great he really was, wouldn't I be stupid not to use them?

A different example. Suppose a virus is discovered that is super duper bad. Like, will slowly eat you away from the inside out, eventually leaving behind your dessicated husk. This virus is spreading. It is present on every continent. People are dying horrible painful deaths, and no one knows how to stop it.

But lo and behold! Along comes a lunatic billionaire who bought all of the Twinkies when hostess went under. It is discovered that he is immune to the virus because all he eats is twinkies. Remember, he has ALL of the twinkies, and only he can access them. When it is demanded of him that he turn over the twinkies to immunize people from this virus, he responds "meh, I might get around to it someday, why is it so important anyways?"

I realize that is a silly example, but if superman just sat around jerking off to pictures of Lois Lane rather than using his awesomeness to save people, he wouldn't really BE all that super. One would not be able to distinguish him from any other person who claimed to be awesome, because he would never actually be using those powers. One might even consider superman to be an asshole, if he were to say watch a bank get robbed and just chill there drinking his martini across the street.

So for this guy to say that he DOES believe that he has such healing powers, he has just never used them and perhaps its not his calling, is a complete cop out, an absolute evasion of the issue. It would be like if I said "I can breathe fire!" and you said "sweet, let's see you do it" and I said "Whoa, wait, you want me to breathe fire? What's wrong with you?" It's a complete bait and switch. It's like watching a talentless magician "Ok, now everyone turn around. Turn around! I can't disappear if people are watching me!". Except.... that when people of faith do this crap, we are expected to RESPECT them.

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Reality would be so much more fascinating if we didn't have so many people constantly insisting that it has supernatural qualities and that we benefit from guidance from above.

The world IS so much more fascinating when your view of it is unrestrained by dogma. I look up at the night sky and realize "Jesus! Where I see the stars is NOT actually where they are in relation to us! And the light coming from those stars has traveled TRILLIONS of miles, only to be captured by the lens of my eye, focused on my retina, and transmitted via the optic nerve to my brain, which receives a visual signal of "star"." That is a lot more impressive and inspiring to me than some eccentric desert rabbi casting demons out onto pigs and driving the mad beasts into the sea.

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Like you kaziglu, I refuse to go through life thinking that evidence is a four letter word.

yes, and I refuse to respect people who don't think that they need anymore evidence than the opinions of some ancient Bedouins. As a parent I think it is valuable to teach our children the value of skepticism (I find that the show Finding Bigfoot is an excellent exercise in this regard. My son is eight, and realizes that the BFRO is one of the most laughable, incredulous, preposterous human endeavors in history. He even refers to its leader, Matt Moneymaker, as "Matt Moneywaster" He has a great sense of humor).

kaziglu bey, I'm developing a bit of an internet crush on you, in a totally non-creepy way. I just read this to my real life BF, and told him that - he approved this message too.

Thanks ! I try my best. It has become a personal mission to oppose this lunatic nonsense wherever it rears its evil head. It brings me joy to know that my words inspire others. Personally I think a sharp intellect is one of the sexiest characteristics possible. That's probably why I have a man crush on Christopher Hitchens, even though he's dead. So sad.

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I C&P'ed this into my "favorite posts" file for future reference. I expect to quote you quite liberally with this one. Great job without being a jerk about it - you're far better at that than I've ever been. Much admiration for your style.

You mean I wasn't a jerk? I'll have to try harder next time It's really hard to criticize religion without religious people thinking you are a jerk though. But of course they are just pissed because society doesn't let them burn us alive anymore. That's why they have to watch football on Sundays now, the human BBQ was cancelled by secular values.

I hope that you are able to use these ideas effectively to unplug a few more from the Matrix. our work is far from over.

I often wonder how far along our world would be, technologically and socially and otherwise, had the wisdom and knowledge of the Greeks been build upon instead of destroyed in conflict and accidentally burned up at Alexandria. How far we would have traversed as humans these last 2,000 years had not dogma and warfare and the dark ages had not occurred.

We could be having this discussion on Mars. Or while on our way to the nearest star. As it is we are still quibbling with folks who want us to return to return us to 25AD, although admittedly most of those people hope that they can continue to post on Facebook. And own guns.

Religion demeans humans. Every time the devil is given credit for bad things or a god is given credit for good ones, the humans involved are devalued, be it for bad or good. Folks standing in front of the judge and says "The devil made me do it" wouldn't have that excuse to believe if everyone understood there isn't one. And every person who, after a long job search, says "Praise the lord for watching over me" is demoting their own perseverance and skill levels and social worth by crediting a non-existence deity.

I've got a million of 'em. As do you. It is so sad that we end up wasting brain power on this problem.

I often wonder how far along our world would be, technologically and socially and otherwise, had the wisdom and knowledge of the Greeks been build upon instead of destroyed in conflict and accidentally burned up at Alexandria. How far we would have traversed as humans these last 2,000 years had not dogma and warfare and the dark ages had not occurred.

We could be having this discussion on Mars. Or while on our way to the nearest star. As it is we are still quibbling with folks who want us to return to return us to 25AD, although admittedly most of those people hope that they can continue to post on Facebook. And own guns.

Religion demeans humans. Every time the devil is given credit for bad things or a god is given credit for good ones, the humans involved are devalued, be it for bad or good. Folks standing in front of the judge and says "The devil made me do it" wouldn't have that excuse to believe if everyone understood there isn't one. And every person who, after a long job search, says "Praise the lord for watching over me" is demoting their own perseverance and skill levels and social worth by crediting a non-existence deity.

I've got a million of 'em. As do you. It is so sad that we end up wasting brain power on this problem.

parking places.. i recognize your idea of religion slowing progress as true... but can i say this about the dark ages.... the catholic church did not restrict knowledge because the bible told it to... they did it because they found it nessesary to maintain their power...

Logged

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

parking places.. i recognize your idea of religion slowing progress as true... but can i say this about the dark ages.... the catholic church did not restrict knowledge because the bible told it to... they did it because they found it nessesary to maintain their power...

So, out with the Catholic church then? I say yes. They are, and always will be a force of power over the weak and poor.

parking places.. i recognize your idea of religion slowing progress as true... but can i say this about the dark ages.... the catholic church did not restrict knowledge because the bible told it to... they did it because they found it nessesary to maintain their power...

I understand that. The effect is the same, no matter what the specific source of power grabbing. The muslims have a similar history. They were making great strides, academically, until the mid-13th century when some ayatollah came along and told them to quit learning shit. Their mathematicians were doing incredible work and scientific strides were being made in other areas when suddenly they all had to play dumb or die.

I do want to point out that the reason fundies hate the theory of evolution is that it takes power away from them by exposing the truth. It shouldn't be truth that needs exposing, but they treat it like that. The same goes for global warming, I guess. They like to think their god wouldn't do such a thing, so they assume he will prevent it or something. Of course the source of that are the big corporations who are doing all the polluting or creating all the energy and need demand to stay high. But since the rich and the fundamentalist walk hand in hand (in a good way, of course), the messages move across that non-permeable barrier that is religion.

parking places.. i recognize your idea of religion slowing progress as true... but can i say this about the dark ages.... the catholic church did not restrict knowledge because the bible told it to... they did it because they found it nessesary to maintain their power...

Oh please. You can't tell me that the entire Bible isn't a manifesto on how to grab and obtain power. "Psst. Hey you. Yeah you. Want people to do what you say? Convince tell them this nonsense is true because God told you so." The whole Bible is about being masters and subjugating other people, and simultaneously being a plaything of the Lord. The master/slave relationship is a common theme throughout the Bible. The Bible makes clear that God favors some rulers and not others, and you can tell by whoever is beating the most ass at the moment. To say that the Catholic Church did it to maintain power is true, because the whole idea of Christianity is about power and submission.

And lets not forget that "God's chosen people" in the Bible were the most ass backwards, incompetent, ignorant, selfish rednecks even by the standards of the time. It's not like they advanced any sort of amazing or groundbreaking theories or mathematics or anything. There is nothing inherent about the Christian religion that signifies a yearning for further knowledge and advances. In fact, Jesus says to take no through for the morrow. This is hardly an entrepreneurial attitude.

parking places.. i recognize your idea of religion slowing progress as true... but can i say this about the dark ages.... the catholic church did not restrict knowledge because the bible told it to... they did it because they found it nessesary to maintain their power...

I understand that. The effect is the same, no matter what the specific source of power grabbing. The muslims have a similar history. They were making great strides, academically, until the mid-13th century when some ayatollah came along and told them to quit learning shit. Their mathematicians were doing incredible work and scientific strides were being made in other areas when suddenly they all had to play dumb or die.

I do want to point out that the reason fundies hate the theory of evolution is that it takes power away from them by exposing the truth. It shouldn't be truth that needs exposing, but they treat it like that. The same goes for global warming, I guess. They like to think their god wouldn't do such a thing, so they assume he will prevent it or something. Of course the source of that are the big corporations who are doing all the polluting or creating all the energy and need demand to stay high. But since the rich and the fundamentalist walk hand in hand (in a good way, of course), the messages move across that non-permeable barrier that is religion.

ill give you fundamentalists and evelution... but people dont believe in global warming for mainly political convienece

Logged

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin

I often wonder how far along our world would be, technologically and socially and otherwise, had the wisdom and knowledge of the Greeks been build upon instead of destroyed in conflict and accidentally burned up at Alexandria. How far we would have traversed as humans these last 2,000 years had not dogma and warfare and the dark ages had not occurred.

We could be having this discussion on Mars. Or while on our way to the nearest star. As it is we are still quibbling with folks who want us to return to return us to 25AD, although admittedly most of those people hope that they can continue to post on Facebook. And own guns.

Religion demeans humans. Every time the devil is given credit for bad things or a god is given credit for good ones, the humans involved are devalued, be it for bad or good. Folks standing in front of the judge and says "The devil made me do it" wouldn't have that excuse to believe if everyone understood there isn't one. And every person who, after a long job search, says "Praise the lord for watching over me" is demoting their own perseverance and skill levels and social worth by crediting a non-existence deity.

I've got a million of 'em. As do you. It is so sad that we end up wasting brain power on this problem.

parking places.. i recognize your idea of religion slowing progress as true... but can i say this about the dark ages.... the catholic church did not restrict knowledge because the bible told it to... they did it because they found it nessesary to maintain their power...

Yes and destroy all evidence that did not meet with their narrative of what should be known. You would not have your bible/religion if not for the Catholic Church/monks/ of the Middle Ages.

Jesus tells his apostles to follow ALL the old laws in Matthew 5 17-46, when his apostles question the Roman laws that conflict with the Talmud. Jesus tells them to follow all the laws or retribution will not happen. Seems your FB respondent didn't remember that one.

I am sort of glad that the guy who rebutted you DID actually answer some questions you asked, which is so rare of any fucking xtian on the planet. But, yes, he still sort of runs away with the fingers in his ears thing.

Logged

2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

Jesus tells his apostles to follow ALL the old laws in Matthew 5 17-46, when his apostles question the Roman laws that conflict with the Talmud. Jesus tells them to follow all the laws or retribution will not happen. Seems your FB respondent didn't remember that one.

I am sort of glad that the guy who rebutted you DID actually answer some questions you asked, which is so rare of any fucking xtian on the planet. But, yes, he still sort of runs away with the fingers in his ears thing.

I have made this same objection. Jesus very clearly says that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He repeated reminds people that they are NOT above the OT law.

The response I get is that Jesus' death is the fulfillment he was talking about. Where does it say this in the Bible? Nowhere. I have asked to be shown where this is said in the Bible and have gotten nothing. Its all down to having the correct interpretation, which of course any given Christian is confident that their interpretation is the only correct one. How convenient!

I am also often accused of being no different than a fundamentalist, because I take the Bible at face value rather than trying to give it a warm, fuzzy twist that suits my fragile emotional needs. Yet believers have no problem taking accounts of Jesus' miracles as nothing less than absolute fact, and of course the resurrection of Jesus is taken entirely literally as well. Anything that a believer themselves is not down with is relegated by them to the status of "just a metaphor" or "a relic from an older time" or some other piffle. It never ceases to amaze me hoe Christians can say that the Bible is the inerrant word of the one true God, and yet look for so many reasons to ignore most of its contents!

I realize that there is certainly plenty of Christians who are this way, who see Jesus as the ultimate Good Guy, and base their worldview on the kindest, gentlest parts of the Bible. While these folks would certainly make better neighbors than the WBC, their belief system is still just as untrue and subject to the same bias as any hardline fundamentalist. Personally I think that neither the fundamentalists and the hippie Jesus Christians use a literal interpretation of the Bible, even though the kinder gentler ones insist that the fundamentalists take it literally. Again, it's only the parts of the Bible that they agree with that they take literally, like hating gays, hating non-believers, etc. They don't take "Turn the other cheek" or "love thy neighbor as thyself" seriously or literally at all.

And there's always this: Why should I NOT take the Bible at face value? With so many possible "interpretations", all of which, according to any other Christian are wrong, why not go with WHAT THE EFFING BOOK ACTUALLY SAYS!?!? Why is already having a close personal relationship with God, so that he can whisper the true meaning of his Book into your ear, a pre-requisite to them for being able to make a sound interpretation of the Bible? Nobody says "Oh well you didn't know Tolkien, so what do you REALLY know about Middle Earth?" NO! No one ever says that. No one ever says "You didn't know Orwell, so you can't possibly understand 1984" THIS NEVER HAPPENS! Yet, in order to take anything meaningful, at all, out of the Bible, we are expected to get to know the author (who is EFFING INVISIBLE) before we can properly comprehend what the author intended! I submit that if "The Lord of the Rings" was so unintelligible and incoherent as to require a close personal relationship with the author in order to properly understand it, it wouldn't have sold many copies!

But no, as usual, entirely different and biased standards are used for religion and God. The standard of evidence and honesty is LESS for the divine ruler of the cosmos than it is for a scientist or a fiction author. Very revealing, if you ask me.

Additionally, what is up with Paul? Even as a kid in church I couldn't help but noticing that what Paul says sometimes is not in line with what Jesus said. Jesus, allegedly, is the human incarnation of divine perfection, all wise, all powerful, all knowing, all merciful, God's Final Solution to the Human Problem. Why is it then that we need Paul to get the last word in? Why take Paul's word over Jesus? Jesus often said that not by faith alone, but also by BEING A GOOD PERSON, can one get eternal reward. Paul says "Nah, don't matter what you've done, all you need is faith and boom! You are saved!" Awfully convenient message coming from a guy who had previously lived a rotten, godless life. OF COURSE HE WOULD EFFING SAY THAT!

And most so called "Followers Of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ" take Paul's teachings over Jesus! If I had been nailed to a cross to save these people only to have my advice ignored in favor of some hallucinating heathen, I would be pretty pissed. Just saying. I mean, we often hear fanatics saying things like "Hurricane Katrina/Sandy/Whatever natural disaster you want is God's punishment for homosexuality". I submit that if it is God's punishment for anything, it's for ignoring his son's message that you have to be good people too, blind devotion won't cut it. And strangely enough, it's ALWAYS secular society that has to put religion in time out because it isn't behaving nicely. Religion didn't abolish slavery in America, the secular President Lincoln did. Lincoln, who very well might have been a non-believer himself! It isn't religious people setting the example in charity, it's Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, both non-believers, who together have given ~$60 billion to charities that will actually make a difference, as opposed to handing out a food basket with a Bible, or a first aid kid with a prayer book attached. Think about it. The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation sponsors a wide variety of programs, that provide water treatment, purification, desalinization and infrastructure in impoverished areas. They also promote agricultural programs that help develop land to be used for growing crops. They provide educational services, establish schools, hospitals, women's clinics, provide health and AIDS prevention education, provide scholarships and grants for higher learning, I mean the list of stuff they do is really unbelievable, and that's just the international stuff!

Compare that to the shameless self promotion and proselytizing done by religious missionaries and charities, and the preaching and degradation and manipulation of people who are at their most desperate, darkest moments, all done in the name of the Lord, and to spread his "Good News". People handing out Bibles, kidnapping babies to convert them to their faith, Scientologists probably scaring the living hell out of helpless people with their utterly insane worldview, the Pope telling people in Africa that condoms don't prevent AIDS, this is the kind of "Good Work" religion does. JEsus said that if you give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat the rest of his life." Who is teaching people to fish here, the secular atheists charity or the religious ones? Christians ought to be ashamed that godless uber rich guys like Gates and Buffet are setting a much better example as far as actually doing the work that Christ set them out to do than the Christians themselves.

A local example: The poverty level in the City of Erie is something like 25 to 30%. There are probably hundreds of homeless, and the winters here are no effing joke, we average over 100 inches of snow per year, often with subzero windchills coming off of the lake. Can you imagine being stranded outside in that?!? St. Patricks cathedral, which is in the heart of the city where many of the homeless roam, just completed a 1.2 million restoration! The Catholic diocese has that kind of money to blow on its own opulence while scores of people are outside in the bitter cold. How is that living a Christian life? They are no different than those who supposedly turned away a heavily pregnant mother of Jesus on Christmas eve!. There have got to be nearly 100 churches in the city, maybe more. If each one were to take in just one or two of the homeless and provide for them until they could get back on their feet, THERE WOULD BE NO HOMELESS! Isn't this Jesus' message? Isn't that what he would do? Isn't that what he would expect his followers to do? If a single church can waste 1.2 mill on a palace for a guy who for obvious reasons doesn't even need it, they ought to be able to take in a few wandering vagrants. After all, wasn't Jesus a homeless wandering vagrant who pretty much relied entirely on others charity to go about his way? Why does a non-believer have to be the one to point this stuff out?

Wow this has turned into a bit of another rant. I'll think I'll cut it off here. But yeah, screw religion, is pretty much what I'm saying.