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02:39:16 foof: ping about Chibi API
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02:42:08 jcowan: Lunch, back in 30min and will respond.
02:42:16 Okay, I'll type it here.
02:42:55 There seems to be a major limitation in the Chibi API that sexps cannot (when using the precise GC) be stored in C data structures, because they have to be registered and then unregistered in LIFO order. This is a Bad Thing.
02:43:52 Lua solves this problem by having a special table called the registry, which is accessible from the API but not from Lua code. C programs can store any Lua object in the registry using a unique key (often an address) and it will be treated as a GC root.
02:44:37 Having something like this in Chibi would be a Good Thing. I realize that hashtables only exist at the Scheme level, but some other simple design as an alternative to the var/preserve/release API would be extremely valuable.
02:46:03 "Lua provides a registry, a pre-defined table that can be used by any C code to store whatever Lua value it needs to store. This table is always located at pseudo-index LUA_REGISTRYINDEX. Any C library can store data into this table, but it should take care to choose keys different from those used by other libraries, to avoid collisions. Typically, you should use as key a string containing your library name or a light userdata with the addr
02:46:03 ess of a C object in your code.
02:46:03 The integer keys in the registry are used by the reference mechanism, implemented by the auxiliary library, and therefore should not be used for other purposes."
02:46:19 "light userdata" = pointer
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03:39:26 jcowan: This is a known issue, and the solution right now is manual - just keep a global variable (list or hash-table) of objects you want to preserve, and insert and remove them from C.
03:39:53 It was brought up on the list and I promised an API to do just that. It will be in the 0.5 release.
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03:49:41 That is, and API to simplify the process. I could also use some of the spare GC bits available to do this without any need for a container data structure, at the expense of potentially slightly slower GC time.
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04:09:37 *foof* wants a 3D printer!
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04:36:29 foof: thanks, sounds like a plan
04:36:39 I want to make a Chicken egg that exports the Chibi API
04:43:02 foof: In addition, #e1.5 returns 1 and #e1e100 returns 0
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04:45:22 The former predates ratio support. The latter was probably me being lazy and not building the bignum.
04:47:40 It would be better if sexp_rationalp and all that stuff were defined even if rational numbers are not; that way programs will just never see a ratio if the library is compiled without one, as opposed to failing to compile.
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04:55:59 I usually try to define those macros sensibly under all compilation options - if it's not defined that was an oversight.
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05:15:13 sexp_ratiop is defined in terms of the tag SEXP_RATIO, but that tag is ifdefed out. Ifdefing out tags makes no sense to me -- they should always exist.
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05:17:18 jcowan: No, because if defined they _must_ exist as indexed types, so they require more space.
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05:17:53 So sexp_ratiop should be defined conditionally as just 0 if there are no ratios, not refer to SEXP_RATIO.
05:20:31 What do you mean by "indexed types"?
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05:23:39 Implementation detail of how the types are implemented and compacted. Suffice to say if we have a SEXP_RATIO type id, the type must exist, and I would just as soon not instantiate useless types.
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05:28:00 *jcowan* nods.
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05:46:45 rudybot: #e1e100
05:46:46 aoh: your sandbox is ready
05:46:46 aoh: ; Value: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
05:47:49 That's more like it.
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05:48:21 In Chicken it coerces 1e100 to a bignum, so you get 10000000000000000159028911097599180468360808563945281389781327557747838772170381060813469985856815104
05:51:50 guile makes 1e10 a float, scheme48 prints 1e10 back (?) and one other gives 10000000000
05:52:46 rudybot: 1e10
05:52:46 aoh: ; Value: 10000000000.0
05:53:33 Without the #e prefix, 1e100 is going to be inexact.
05:57:32 oh, right. 1e10 is a representation of the inexact integerm and the last one doesn't support inexact numbers.
05:59:55 Racket, Gauche, MIT, Gambit, Guile 2.0, Scheme48, Chez, Ikarus, Larceny, Ypsilon, Mosh, STklos get it right.
06:00:43 Also IronScheme.
06:00:54 The quick fix for Chibi is to do what Chicken does. I kept growing the reader from pre-bignum days, I really need to rewrite it...
06:01:35 scsh, Bigloo, ksi, Scheme 9, Scheme 7, UMB, VX, and Oaklisp all report syntax errors of various kinds.
06:01:52 Kawa and SISC do what Chicken does.
06:02:48 Elk generates an inexact number anyway.
06:03:33 SigScheme pukes too.
06:04:20 + ok SCM and TinyScheme
06:04:35 hadn't noticed scsh has turned R6RS
06:05:14 It hasn't. It's a fork of Scheme 48, which is definitely not R6RS.
06:05:22 jcowan: if you dont want to download IronScheme, try http://eval.ironscheme.net
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06:05:49 jcowan, i know, but "Welcome to scsh 0.6.7 (R6RS)"
06:06:58 leppie: I've downloaded it and run it, I just have to switch to a different CLI to execute it, as I run everything else on CoLinux
06:07:07 aoh: Weird.
06:08:30 It doesn't provide assp, for example.
06:08:40 -!- grglr [~grglr@2620:0:1cfe:61:129a:ddff:fe54:2c1e] has quit [Quit: grglr]
06:10:18 Wild. Last update was 6 hours ago.
06:10:19 "As for future, 64-bit capable, versions of scsh (as a s48 library) you can download the development version from the scsh project @ Google Code or from Roderic Morris." @ scsh.net
06:12:05 But 0.6.7 is from 2006, predating R6RS. Who knows what it means?
06:12:25 leppie: Is it possible to run IronScheme on Mono?
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13:18:41 is there anyway to inspect the internals of a procedure object - the formal parameters, the body? (car myfunc) gives an error.
13:19:35 Not a standard way (and I don't personally know of any non-standard ways, but they may exist)
13:22:21 so the description in the book of a procedure object as a pair, with car =code and cdr= environment is only a model, you can't really see that representation in actual implementations?
13:24:17 Right, I don't think that's how any implementations actually store procedure objects. (Although, I am talking, as usual, from a state of almost absolute ignorance.)
13:24:45 I'm basically just answering to avoid doing the things I should be doing...
13:24:46 :-|
13:25:34 i'll leave the question open for the wizards then.
13:26:11 They'll hopefully pop up at some point. I'm fairly sure my answer is correct though, if inadequate.
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13:31:49 kellar: there is a propsed srfi IIRC
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13:32:20 kellar2: try (procedure-form proc)
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13:33:12 also procedure-arity
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13:33:34 and a bunch of others I have not personally implemented in my scheme :)
13:34:03 thanks, let's see.
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13:35:57 procedure-form is undefine in mit-scheme and racket
13:36:02 what does rudybot use?
13:36:19 rudybot: (banner)
13:36:19 fds: your sandbox is ready
13:36:19 fds: ; Value: "Welcome to Racket v5.1.1.\n"
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13:38:19 kellar: iirc the origins are from larceny, but in the srfi i recall they mentioned they current approached used by the implementations
13:41:24 procedure-arity works in both, but I can't find any mention of 'procedure-form' in the srfi's , do you remember anything more about it by any chance?
13:42:33 oh, now i remember, it was only for procedure-arity
13:43:44 yes, srfi 102. thanks for that in any case.
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13:44:05 ok, maybe procedure-form is IronScheme only :) but it is basically procedure-arity as lists
13:45:15 i do extract the parameter names though for prettiness (and reflection purposes)
13:45:33 hmmm. so IronScheme runs on.... mono?
13:45:56 yes, the last time I looked, it did run fine (but slowish)
13:46:07 that was about 4-6 months back
13:46:58 you may get unexpected stackoverflows though, due to a lack of proper tail calls on Mono
13:47:50 that's a bit left-field for a linuxer like myself. I'm sure it's a fine scheme though :)
13:49:03 it is based on .NET and there are not many other complete schemes for .NET
13:50:09 but at least it tries to be a scheme, not some bastard like clojure ;P
13:50:43 heh
13:51:28 trying out new directions is a good thing, and the net result is more people exposed to lispy ideas. a good thing as well.
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13:52:02 even if it's through a hip language de-jour type phenomenon.
13:52:12 my next attempt at a scheme for .NET is going to be bastardised too :) native exceptions FTW
13:52:17 speaking of which, when oh when will I find time to learn erlang??? ;)
13:52:35 R6RS is very strict on it's exception model
13:53:04 R7RS is much looser, which will allow me to bend code generation rules a bit more
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13:54:17 you've probably done benchmarks, how does the performance of IronScheme with the VM JIT compare with vanilla c/c++ implementations?
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13:55:17 it compared very badly against ikarus :)
13:55:37 mostly arithmetic is damn slow
13:55:57 to get proper speed you have to use non-generic procs or even unsafe ones
13:56:08 oh, why is that? there are a lot of success stories along the vm path elsewhere in language land, Jruby, jython...
13:56:24 and use IronScheme specific constructs
13:57:19 http://xacc.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/writing-fast-arithmetic-code-on-ironscheme/
13:57:19 http://tinyurl.com/3bkg4up
13:57:26 that's strange, there's a large movement of building dynamic languages on top of the vm specifically for reaping the benefits of all the optimization that's gone into the VM's
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13:57:45 leppie: why don't scheme implementatiosn do trace-jit and hoist the dispatch higher up the call chain?
13:58:03 VM's loose out when code is not statically typed
13:59:15 Thati st rue, but at run time, there are statically typable sections if you trace them and then jit to remove the dispatch and have some exit-function higher up in case the type is not what is expected. I thought that was how dynamically typed vms did it
13:59:19 ideally ironscheme should have a type inference system, but R6RS makes that difficult
13:59:40 leppie: does it have an FFI to managed code?
13:59:58 Specifically w.r.t the numeric tower, the functions are statically typed no? "division of two integrals gives a rational, division of two reals gives a real"
14:00:14 it may not be a simple type, but there is inferenceable logic there
14:00:37 Or maybe the cost of such analysis outweigh the benefits
14:01:02 poucet: I could do that, but it would probably be too much work for not enough benefit, I will rather put that effort in a new Scheme or a rewrite of IronScheme
14:01:15 *poucet* nods
14:01:49 kellar: you mean to use .NET stuff or to use C stuff?
14:02:19 leppie: For native client? :)
14:02:38 kellar: either/both.
14:03:02 kellar: no, you're wrong.
14:03:04 leppie: either/both.
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14:03:48 it has a very basic FFI (native) library, but quite a comprehensive on into .NET (supports generics and most constructs)
14:04:34 no direct support in FFI for pointer types or structs
14:04:40 :(
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14:31:06 very few schemes do compare favorably to ikarus in speed, on any area
14:31:56 Maybe stalin?
14:32:00 aoh: i don't think that's true
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14:34:04 samth, i don't think i've seen others beat it by an interesting margin in benchmarks, but it often beats others by up to an order of magnitude, even including compile time
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14:36:26 well, larceny, chicken (timing just binaries) and mit-scheme are probably about the same
14:36:46 this suggests differently: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/will/Twobit/benchmarksGenuineR6Linux.html
14:37:34 although the page is kind of old, ikarus has not been developed recently
14:40:10 samth, that's pretty much what i've seen, ikarus is usually fastest, and it, larceny, mit-scheme and chicken are in the same ballpark
14:40:44 some vm-style systems within 10x of ikarus, some over 100x slower
14:41:02 aoh: Afaict, ikarus is slowest on that page
14:41:17 Oh neverm ind, I misread the bar
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14:41:37 I thought the bar was the seconds, but it is the numbers. The bar is the performance. Bit confusing page
14:41:51 i thought so too at first
14:42:17 It's cause it starts out mentioning runtime in seconds
14:42:34 So you read that and your eyes look down at the bars instead of finishing the paragraph :D
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14:44:35 aoh: the geometric-mean at the top has larceny as the fastest
14:45:50 samth, iirc it beat ikarus also in my benchmarks on a few mainly fixnum-related cases
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14:47:11 aoh: are you using chicken in your benchmarks too?
14:48:06 mario-goulart, yes, it is usually among the fastest few if you don't count compile time (which I don't)
14:48:30 aoh: interesting. What version are you using?
14:49:04 mario-goulart, actually about to get the newest one here at the moment to rerun the benchmark this night :)
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14:49:55 mario-goulart, debian has 4.5.0, so that has probably been used before
14:50:08 Ah, ok. That's pretty old.
14:50:34 yes, as are some of the other schemes in debian stable. chibi isn't even packaged yet.
14:50:35 aoh: The next version (4.8.0) is expected to produce faster code, but it may take a while to be released.
14:51:43 mario-goulart, what are you planning for 4.8.0?
14:52:31 Not really me, but the chicken wizards have been adding some optimizations based on flow analysis.
14:54:42 mario-goulart, i'll grab the git repo and see what happens, in case some of it has already landed
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14:59:25 aoh: cool. Beware that the git repo may contain some broken things. :-)
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15:08:21 aoh: what version of racket are you benchmarking?
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15:09:15 samth, are they still using mzscheme as the compiler? that one is 4.2.1 in debian.
15:10:30 aoh: that's very very old
15:10:47 modern debian should have racket v5.1.1
15:10:52 at least
15:15:58 samth, racket doesn't seem to have a 32-bit debian package, will have to compile
15:16:54 aoh: on what debian release?
15:17:04 samth, squeeze
15:17:23 http://packages.debian.org/squeeze-backports/racket
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15:19:26 samth, great! downloading now
15:19:51 wheezy has 5.1.2
15:19:55 wheezy has 5.1.3, rather
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15:20:36 also, probably one of the builds here: http://racket-lang.org/download/ will work (try the i386 ubuntu build)
15:21:14 samth, i had just downloaded that, but will first try the backported one
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15:24:40 samth, do you know if racket < file is ok for benchmarking it, or if there are some flags etc that might be useful?
15:24:54 aoh: i recommend racket -f file
15:26:28 hmm, $ touch foo; time racket -f foo -> reference to undefined identifier: ab, user 0m1.024s
15:27:05 my bad :) foo existed, but the 1s startup time may skew the benchmark a bit
15:28:25 aoh: you should only time the execution
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15:33:43 leppie, i have a script to automatically time the interpetation or binaries, sort them etc. not easy for now to time one differently :(
15:34:39 what is the point? ikarus for example takes between 50 - 75ms to start on my PC
15:35:29 as do most other schemes
15:36:02 but then you still include the parse and compilation phases, then only the execution
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15:39:01 leppie, i know. i'm mainly interested in how much time (and memory) it takes to run programs with different schemes in the way they programs might be shipped, source or binary
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15:39:29 ok
15:39:55 originally i wanted to match scheme48 against my toy, but the benchmark has grown a bit since then :)
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15:56:20 don't have all schemes here yet (new guile or petite) and the short benchmark is too short to give jit:s time to warm up, but the results look something like http://pastebin.com/i5g5wxzX
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15:58:29 aoh: Bah! You almost got me there. You should know how much of a sucker I am for benchmarks.
15:58:32 mario-goulart, that is actually chicken 4.7.3, forgot to change the version
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15:59:04 aoh: I'm so tempted to run these on my machine and send Chez after Ikarus.
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16:02:36 arcfide, the script is bench/bench.sh in http://haltp.org/git/owl-lisp.git, but it will require some tweaking
16:03:26 i'll get chez for the longer run. it usually takes a full night since some *chough* tinyscheme *cough* rarely finish by the deadline when repetitions are increased :)
16:03:27 No! Don't tempt me.
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16:04:34 but that is not really a good scheme benchmark, it just uses the purely functional subset. apples and bananas.
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16:16:20 /lastlog roderic 5
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17:00:52 schemers
17:01:07 wingo: hi.
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17:01:30 i just figured something out why one would want (let ((p (lambda (x) x))) (eq? p p)) to be unspecified, as it is in the r6rs
17:01:54 dybvig's cp0 does inlining as copy propagation of lambda expressions
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17:02:30 and it seems easier to do so without the eq? guarantee
17:02:38 hello qu1j0t3.
17:03:11 relaxing this rule allows more higher-order inlining i think
17:04:18 wingo: does the r6rs rationale document not mention this?
17:05:01 ijp: i don't recale
17:05:03 *recall
17:05:59 yes it does
17:06:08 it mentions inlining, along with coalescing
17:06:32 allowing for (eq? (lambda (x) x) (lambda (y) y)) i think
17:07:06 odd, though; in this sense closures are *not* a poor man's object
17:07:57 since they don't have identity (!)
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17:15:09 true enough, I'm also not a fan of (eqv? "" "") and (eqv? '#() '#()) being unspecified
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17:45:53 aoh: you're almost certainly running racket in an unusual way
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18:24:13 samth, i'm not really familiar with it. $ racket -f and $ racket < are giving same timings, which look ok to me. is there something else i should be doing?
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18:56:03 aoh: what do the files look like
18:56:43 probably, they would need to be in modules to benefit from optimization
18:59:18 samth, for example http://pastebin.com/gzTx4jrt, each defines a function 'test' which is called n times
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19:17:17 aoh: if you add '#lang racket/base' at the top of that file, and run it with 'racket -u filename.rkt' , it runs 30% faster
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19:33:36 samth, i got ~11s with racket -f ..., and with that ~1s for racket -u ...
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19:33:59 as in, the time went for 11 sec to 1 sec?
19:34:05 or from 11 sec to 10 sec?
19:34:13 yep, quite an improvement :)
19:34:51 11 vs 1 is correct
19:38:24 what's happening is that racket is (a) designed to optimize things in modules and (b) makes correct but pessimistic assumptions that you might mutate any of your variables when you run at the top level
19:38:32 and it can know more when your code is in a module
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