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DNF's original plot?

Considering the switch was announced on June 15th, I highly doubt that.

Perhaps he meant when the decision was made internally, as opposed to announcing it to the public via the press release?

PikaCommando, on 17 December 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Q2
-Duke takes a vacation in Vegas, gets attacked by mutated army
-Duke takes the fight to the streets, visiting famous locales
-Duke hitches a ride on a truck as Dr. Proton's nuke hit Vegas
-Duke fights off Army Ants in the highway to escape from the nuke's fire as seen in the trailer
-Duke reaches a US Army base for some reason and meets Bombshell there
-Duke and Bombshell fights across the Grand Canyon to reach Hoover Dam
-They presumably got separated in the Ghost Town
-Duke meets Gus, who tells him to use the mining area
-Duke and Bombshell regrouped there and escapes together

I wonder how accurate I am?

Don't forget the Lake Mead jet ski segment, which was one of the sequences shown to the press behind closed doors at E3 '98. Also, at one point, Duke rides a steam train through the desert/canyon area, manning a Gatling gun mounted on a flatbed railroad car. Here is an article where both of these elements are mentioned, along with a ton of other rare tidbits.

Maybe it leads to Hoover Dam, but definitely not Area 51. I think it probably leads into the mines, which leads to the Dam Top area like in final DNF. How Duke got to Area 51 is anyone's guess though, but I'd say it's probably via a transport ship. Maybe the EDF leads an assault to Area 51? After all, General Graves is in that screenshot with that nuke launch, which presumably takes place in Area 51.

Did Proton nuke Vegas to be a super villain, or did the EDF nuke Vegas to wipe out the mutations? If Proton fired the nuke, why is Graves standing by as the rockets fly?

I can tell without a doubt Dr. Proton fires the nuke at Vegas in the Q2 version after the first 2 zones because evil, but in 2001 version it's unsure whether he fired a nuke, a giant laser, or simply overrun Vegas with mutants. Also that screenshot with Graves is most likely a different nuke at Area 51 at the end of the game, to close a wormhole or something.

This post has been edited by PikaCommando: 18 December 2014 - 08:12 PM

All this speculation and guesstimating really brings me back 10+ years to the long-winded discussions on the 3DR forums about plot and gameplay elements; picking apart what little we could from the limited screenshots and videos we had to go on...salivating over any tiny morsel George would drop into our mouths. Only difference is that today it is Fred offering us info and the gag-orders seem to be at least slightly more lax than they were way back when(i.e. 99.98% of questions being answered with "Area 51" by Siegler). Even though the so-called official "Duke Nukem Forever" game has been released, it feels like there is still every bit as much - if not significantly more- of a lingering mystery surrounding the vast number of unseen/unknown aspects of years past.

All this speculation and guesstimating really brings me back 10+ years to the long-winded discussions on the 3DR forums about plot and gameplay elements; picking apart what little we could from the limited screenshots and videos we had to go on...salivating over any tiny morsel George would drop into our mouths. Only difference is that today it is Fred offering us info and the gag-orders seem to be at least slightly more lax than they were way back when(i.e. 99.98% of questions being answered with "Area 51" by Siegler). Even though the so-called official "Duke Nukem Forever" game has been released, it feels like there is still every bit as much - if not significantly more- of a lingering mystery surrounding the vast number of unseen/unknown aspects of years past.

The DNF we got shouldn't have existed in the first place had development gone right. Other than a few elements, they are both nearly different games. It sucks that DNF will forever be remembered by most as an unworthy sequel or a game past it's prime. This is why I must hope that Fred cooperates with us to reveal more, so that all that information won't be lost one day and mod makers may attempt an even more accurate depiction of the old DNF in the future if the builds remain unreleased.

This post has been edited by PikaCommando: 19 December 2014 - 05:49 AM

I'm curious about the old DNF multiplayer... Like if the Holoduke always acted how it does in DNF, if the jetpack was only a multiplayer item all along, etc.

I always felt the final DNF was a watered down 90s shooter. It had everything from the 90s FPS scene, just watered down to appeal to newcomers, like 2 weapon limit, no unlimited running, etc.

While those are indeed the issues most have with it, my main gripe is why the seemingly unnecessary change to day Vegas? Vegas is just not Vegas in daytime. That, combined with the gameplay and the now-generic video game locations which would have been met with praise in the early '00s, is what led to its downfall.

I too am curious about the multiplayer, mainly what maps it would have. But other than the enemies and bosses, I am also interested about its map editor and modding tools. Hell, if DNF was released then, Fred might have made a Duke Nukem 3D Reloaded as a mod for DNF.

I remember years ago when I first read the plot and saw the screenshots for the '98 DNF, I thought the game's story would play out like an homage to Independence Day, Terminator 2, and an Andy Sidaris film. I imagined the level design as being enhancement on the movie-centric level design from the Plutonium Pak (since Area 51, the secret level in PP, was one of the intended locations in DNF). Judging from some of the screenshots, I thought that the '98 DNF would also contain references to Duke 1+2, and that Techbots and Rigelatins might return. I didn't get to see the '98 trailer until a few years recently, and I only saw the screenshots from the trailer just to get an idea of what it would look like. Upon seeing it, I'm amazed with what 3D Realms did with the Quake II engine. The resulting engine in that trailer looked like DNF had aspects of Half-Life, Unreal, and Prey in its alpha stage. The direction Broussard wanted to go with the '98 DNF was pretty ambitious for a Duke game, considering that he wanted to make the game character driven, and wanted to develop the relationship between Duke and Bombshell.

Although we have little to work with in terms of where the 2000 DNF was intended to go, there were bits in the trailer which hinted that DNF was heading into a more ambitious story direction. Remember what General Graves' said?

"Duke, the situation has deteriorated. It appears they have the President. The Earth Defense Force has been compromised, and I'm afraid you can't trust anyone."

Since 2000 DNF introduced octopod-parasite infested EDF soldiers, and Graves suggests that those infested soldiers can easily blend in as normal soldiers until the last minute, I'm wondering if the creators were intending to implement gameplay aspects similar to those in the 2002 The Thing game. I was checking videos of The Thing game, and I was struck by how the game was able to make you nervous around your ally NPCs, and it made you suspect your teammates might be the Thing by having an ugly cough that could be nothing. I know the the game wasn't released until 2002, but it is interesting that Broussard wanted to use influences from that game once he played it. If the infested EDF soldiers was inspired by The Thing 1982 movie, I just wonder how far the creator wanted to go with the "that NPC might be a friend or enemy" dynamic. It was hinted in the original Duke 3D that slime-infested babes were becoming less human (from the red eyes), so I wonder if this new parasite is an enhancement on the slimer. If Proton was still a part of that story, maybe he found a way to genetically modify the Cycloids' parasitic organisms to control humans? If only we knew.

We have yet to see if any of the previous story treatments for DNF survived for scholarly examination.

Post-Edit Thought: On another note, the screenshot with the Gray aliens and the red chainsaw suggests that the 2000 DNF would combine influences from Evil Dead 2/Army of Darkness and Men in Black. It's a shame we didn't get to see that in the retail version.

This post has been edited by Flying Techbot: 08 October 2015 - 10:25 PM

Hmm, Duke's relationship with Bombshell is likely nothing more than a female fatale who he gets to rescue/bang at the end of the game. I mean, all the old materials reeks of late 90s FPS plot and I'm pretty sure George Broussard is more into the action than the excuse plot.

I think I read somewhere that the talking parts in the 2001 trailer is just there for show. The "you can't trust anyone" line is probably just parodying those "trust no one" lines from 90s action movies, and a system like that would only slow the game down. The EDF soldiers would most likely function like the Security Guards from Half-Life, so they'll only be around at certain areas thus no use for that system. At most it's likely that the ally EDF soldiers who are killed by the parasite bug will turn into an enemy NPC on the spot.

DNF 2013, at least in a basic sense, pretty much showed how the EDF troops would be implemented in the game. They'd start out okay, and then when shit went south they'd be against you. Some worse off than others. I really don't think there was ever going to be any attempt at a "Who is with you and who is against you." It's a Duke Nukem game. You're here to blow shit up, not go through the rigors of psychological horror and suspense.

As far as Bombshell and Duke, everything I've ever seen indicated that Bombshell had no time for Duke's bullshit.

The idea of Duke getting the chainsaw hand is actually hinted at in the SOURCE CODE for Duke 3D. There's a few bits of dialogue in there about a war and a few little blurbs for future episode stuff after episode 4.

As far as can be told from everything we heard and have seen of DNF from 98 to 01. The idea was Proton unleashing all Hell by getting in touch with aliens, resurrecting Area 51 personnel as monsters, unleashing aliens that were stored at Area 51. Giving you everything we saw. Mutant monsters, possessed humans, alien invaders, and robots. All in one game.

Most of what was in the 01 trailer, as Wieder pointed out in a post awhile ago, was mostly playable stuff. The only reason that things changed, is because Broussard had become obsessed with pushing things further and further. It's actually a shame that the old 3DR picture archives are gone. There were images from those days that really indicated what 3DR was up to. There are bits and pieces of information about how they installed a mo-cap facility, that they took a trip to Vegas and did a shit load of camera shooting to get texture and level reference material. A never ending and directionless need to innovate and do the next best thing, which later transformed into doing what everyone else was doing, caused the biggest tragedy in video game history (imo) ever.

The idea of Duke getting the chainsaw hand is actually hinted at in the SOURCE CODE for Duke 3D. There's a few bits of dialogue in there about a war and a few little blurbs for future episode stuff after episode 4.

Cmdr: "Duke, we've got a lot of scared people down there.
Some reports even claim that people are already
slowly changing into aliens."
Duke: "No problem, my speciality is in croud control."
Cmdr: "Croud control, my ass! Remember that incident
during the war? You created nuthin' but death and
destruction."
Duke: "Not destruction, justice."
Cmdr: "I'll take no responsibility for your actions. Your on
your own! Behave your self, damnit! You got that,
soldger?"
Duke: "I've always been on my own... Face it, it's ass kickin' time,
SIR!"
Cmdr: "Get outta here...!"
(Duke gives the Cmdr a hard stair, then cocks his weapon and
walks out of the room)
Cmdr: In a wisper: "Good luck, my friend."

(Cut to a scene where aliens are injecting genetic material
into an unconcious subject)

I can't find it just now, but I know it's in there somewhere. I'll have to hope the source and dig through it more thoroughly. I know there's mention of Duke losing his hand and attaching a chainsaw somewhere in there.

I can't find it just now, but I know it's in there somewhere. I'll have to hope the source and dig through it more thoroughly. I know there's mention of Duke losing his hand and attaching a chainsaw somewhere in there.

They just finished 3 and are already thinking of 5? Talk about getting ahead of themselves :V

They just finished 3 and are already thinking of 5? Talk about getting ahead of themselves :V

Likely a reference to it being Episode 5, not literally Duke Nukem V. A number of the ideas listed there would later make their way into various DNF ideas. Like people turning into monsters, Las Vegas/Military Base and so on.

As far as any of it actually making it to any state of completion I highly doubt that. More likely it was just written down at the moment as they were spit balling ideas all the time.

The artbook provided with the Balls of Steel edition of DNF has quite a few interesting tidbits, but nothing too big about how the game was like in the past. It does contain an interesting tidbit though: It seems that you originally did not start in Vegas, but had to ride Gus' mule to Vegas. If so, where would Duke begin in the 1998 version of DNF? Also the book mentioned a Quake 1 version of Duke Nukem Forever and that Dr. Proton was cut from the Unreal Engine/2001 version of DNF.

Also the book mentioned a Quake 1 version of Duke Nukem Forever and that Dr. Proton was cut from the Unreal Engine/2001 version of DNF.

That's where Brian Cozzens says that Doctor Proton was removed "shortly after they switched to the Unreal engine". However, the same page shows four sketches of Dr. Proton, including one where he's wearing a surgical mask. This one: http://duke4ever.alt...t1999/work9.jpg
But the same rendition of the character is shown in another of Paul Richards's artworks, here http://duke4ever.alt...1998/poster.jpg , together with elements that set it firmly as the first Unreal version. Note the EDF soldier with tentacles coming out of his mouth, the gray alien at the top right, and "Little Caesar" (the pimp character) at the bottom.

PikaCommando, on 11 October 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

They just finished 3 and are already thinking of 5? Talk about getting ahead of themselves :V

I think that text was added shortly before the source code was released, as a red herring with the only purpose to cause wild speculations.
Kinda like the MS-DOS executable of Mortal Kombat 2 had a text section you could read with a hex editor, which read:

Even though Hendricks already put this issue to bed, this is probably one of the more crazier things I've read on this forum.

Really? When I read those lines soon after the source code was released, I instinctly thought that revealing the plot to the sequel to DNF when DNF wasn't out yet was absurd. Especially since the source code was released on April 1.
I just chortled and thought something to the extent of "Man, this joke is gonna make people speculate for years!"

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.

Really? When I read those lines soon after the source code was released, I instinctly thought that revealing the plot to the sequel to DNF when DNF wasn't out yet was absurd. Especially since the source code was released on April 1.
I just chortled and thought something to the extent of "Man, this joke is gonna make people speculate for years!"

I found some dialog in game.c that I think actually did pertain to the final game. I remember a scene were Duke went down to the duke cave and the General was telling Duke to sit tight. This isn't verbatim what was in the final game, but it resembles the Generals overall domineer. "You made a mess, let the professionals handle it from here" sort of thing.

Duke: "No problem, my speciality is in croud control."
Cmdr: "Croud control, my ass! Remember that incident
during the war? You created nuthin' but death and
destruction."

Aside from that I don't see Charlie going in and adding random comments at the bottom of game.c I would like to know who actually wrote those comments though.

The being said, my favorite comment in that section was this:

Penetencury:
Good use of spotlights:

All we know about Penetencury is they wanted to make good use of spotlights .

This seems like a cool idea though.

Suburbs
Duke inflitrating neighborhoods inf. by aliens

Same with this:

Mental ward:
People whom have claimed to be slowly changing into an
alien species

But the same rendition of the character is shown in another of Paul Richards's artworks, here http://duke4ever.alt...1998/poster.jpg , together with elements that set it firmly as the first Unreal version. Note the EDF soldier with tentacles coming out of his mouth, the gray alien at the top right, and "Little Caesar" (the pimp character) at the bottom.

I can understand that Dr. Proton or whoever was the mastermind after Proton's cut (The Greys, maybe?), allied the Octabrains and the giant red roach aliens to turn humans into tentacle monsters and pigcops (again) for world domination or something. But what I don't get it where the pimp and the guerrilla-looking dudes that Duke headshots in the trailer fit into all this. Is Bombshell even in the Unreal version?

Also, updated the OP to include Fred's enlightening info on DNF a while back before I made this thread. Should've included it from the start, woops.

But what I don't get it where the pimp and the guerrilla-looking dudes that Duke headshots in the trailer fit into all this.

You already saw the artwork of Little Caesar where he is dressed as a pimp. There are two more (only in the artwork section at the end of the guide): in one, he is dressed as a "gangsta" guy wearing bling (rings and a medallion). In the other, he is just wearing baggy hip-hop-style clothes and aiming a pistol sideways. The caption says "Colorful comic-y concepts of Vegas' visitors". From that, I can infer that 3DRealms had no idea what to do with that character, which is why he was cut.

If by "guerrilla-looking dudes" you mean the guy with a red bandana who gets shot in the 2001 trailer, I guess it was one of the people who "are turning into monsters".
If, instead, you mean the Army Ants (the red creatures who appear in the 1998 trailer), those were a visual joke like the pigcops ("Last time, the aliens mutated cops into pigs! Get it? 'Cause cops are disparagingly called pigs! But this time, they are mutating people in the army!! What should they turn into? Oh, I know, army ants are real animals! Let's turn them into humanoid army ants!")

PikaCommando, on 12 June 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

Is Bombshell even in the Unreal version?

Yes. see the 2003 concept art page in the museum. There are various concepts for Bombshell.
The guide shows renders for a blonde female EDF soldier and calls her Bombshell. It also mentions a Lake Mead section where Bombshell would drive the boat Duke is on, while Duke would be shooting from a turret.

If your brain tells you one thing and your heart tells you another, get rid of those silly doubts and listen to your brain.