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Punchy wrote:Except DD went through a lot of stuff before he was possessed by 'The Beast'. What happened to Milla (his wife!) should haunt him and change him. You can't just move on from a Wife who went crazy because of your actions.

meh, you talk about Waid establihing he may have gone through a psychotic break now, but marrying Milla in the first place was the result of a psychotic break. Bendis pretty clearly set that out.

and why can't he just move on? there's precedent!! Matt moved on pretty damn quick after Heather Glenn killed herself because being with Matt drove her nuts...at least Milla's still sucking in air and blowing it back out again.

as far as Milla goes, good riddance to bad rubbish, IMMO. if Waid never mentions her, it'll be too soon.

Punchy wrote:I guess I was wrong when I said this comic could be the end of the Daredevil fan wars.

well, i disagree with your charcterization of it as a "fan war", personally, because i don't fit into either of the 2 camps you ascribe to the war. i myself worship at the altar of Miller's DD. it is by miles and miles the best work on the character ever, and one of IMMO the top 10 superhero comic runs of all time (when looked at all together: the initial run, BA, and MWOF). i love DD in dark stories, mixing himself with gritty, noir elements like Turk, Josie's Bar, gang wars, etc. yet i also like my DD more swashbuckley, b/c that's who Matt is as a person.

b/c here's the thing that the recent decade or so's worth of writers (Bendis, Bru, Diggle) have forgotten: even Frank knew when enough was enough. yeah, he beat on DD and beat on him and beat on him, but in the end Matt overcame and found himself. he was "born again" as himself. Nocenti pulled a similar trick, laying defeat and disgrace and shame and bad decisions on him for 50-60 issues until Matt, because he is the HERO of the story, fought his way back up out of literal Hell to find himself again. and that waas just nowhere to be found in Bendis, et al's runs.

and yes, i'll buy the fact that events change a man. but here's where i think your true divide lies: most of us realize this is a serial medium. and most of us realize that in such a serial medium, while stories matter, characters matter more. and there's only so far and so much you can change a character until he's no longer recognizable to the fans that follow him. and once you do that, not every writer is going to be able to write stories of a high enough quality to keep those readers who read the book for Matt Murdock as opposed to those who read for BMB, or for Bru, or for "let's see how much shit Writer X can pile on DD this arc"

chap22 wrote:well, i disagree with your charcterization of it as a "fan war", personally, because i don't fit into either of the 2 camps you ascribe to the war. i myself worship at the altar of Miller's DD. it is by miles and miles the best work on the character ever, and one of IMMO the top 10 superhero comic runs of all time (when looked at all together: the initial run, BA, and MWOF). i love DD in dark stories, mixing himself with gritty, noir elements like Turk, Josie's Bar, gang wars, etc. yet i also like my DD more swashbuckley, b/c that's who Matt is as a person.

b/c here's the thing that the recent decade or so's worth of writers (Bendis, Bru, Diggle) have forgotten: even Frank knew when enough was enough. yeah, he beat on DD and beat on him and beat on him, but in the end Matt overcame and found himself. he was "born again" as himself. Nocenti pulled a similar trick, laying defeat and disgrace and shame and bad decisions on him for 50-60 issues until Matt, because he is the HERO of the story, fought his way back up out of literal Hell to find himself again. and that waas just nowhere to be found in Bendis, et al's runs.

and yes, i'll buy the fact that events change a man. but here's where i think your true divide lies: most of us realize this is a serial medium. and most of us realize that in such a serial medium, while stories matter, characters matter more. and there's only so far and so much you can change a character until he's no longer recognizable to the fans that follow him. and once you do that, not every writer is going to be able to write stories of a high enough quality to keep those readers who read the book for Matt Murdock as opposed to those who read for BMB, or for Bru, or for "let's see how much shit Writer X can pile on DD this arc"

I agree with everything, except the bolded line. In the "King of Hell's Kitchen" arc, Bendis has Matt realizing that he can't impose some weird street-level tyranny to end crime. Rather, he has to win the good old-fashioned superhero way. And ol' DD teams up with Spidey, Iron Fist, and Luke Cage to kick some bad-guy ass. It's a strong arc and a change in direction. And it shows Matt returning to the mainstream superhero ranks -- no more rogue tactics.

Eli Katz wrote:I agree with everything, except the bolded line. In the "King of Hell's Kitchen" arc, Bendis has Matt realizing that he can't impose some weird street-level tyranny to end crime. Rather, he has to win the good old-fashioned superhero way. And ol' DD teams up with Spidey, Iron Fist, and Luke Cage to kick some bad-guy ass. It's a strong arc and a change in direction. And it shows Matt returning to the mainstream superhero ranks -- no more rogue tactics.

and then goes right back to shit-piling' leading directly to freaking jail.