Its unfortunate that it has come to this. But you cannot really be Orthodox and live an active homosexual lifestyle. As Bishop Matthias said, if you struggle with other Orthodox Christians and recognize homosexuality as what it is, and as long as you don't contradict the teaching of the Church, then you are fine.

Groups like "Axios" are rightly excommunicated and put out of the Church. You cannot try to justify your behavior and expect to be allowed to commune in our church. It doesn't matter what sin you're committing.

With discussions like this though, I also feel like we are all guilty of the sin of gossip and loose tongues. Lord forgive us!

With discussions like this though, I also feel like we are all guilty of the sin of gossip and loose tongues. Lord forgive us!

Possibly, but Church officials affect all of us. St Paul said that bishops must be "above reproach", but I would think that command extends to everyone in Church leadership, even lay leadership. For our Orthodox brothers and sisters who are struggling against the passion of homosexuality, it could be a major stumbling-block to see someone like Mr Stokoe in such a position in the Church.

I applaud Bishop Matthias' letter, and on the heels of the Antiochian Archdiocese's resolution last weekend dealing with gay marriage, I am glad to see the Church putting her foot down on these issues that have risen in the cultural consciousness recently.

What a joke. Hopefully they'll find some other excuse than his alleged homosexuality or else they'll have to explain why nothing happens to those afflicted with similar "passions" in the hierarchy.

Given that there has been a lot of questions and concern about Mark Stokoe's very apparent conflict of interest (being on the MC and the things he's published and some of the methods used for getting the information), I'd say His Grace had quite enough to go on to remove MS from the MC without the homosexuality issue.

What a joke. Hopefully they'll find some other excuse than his alleged homosexuality or else they'll have to explain why nothing happens to those afflicted with similar "passions" in the hierarchy.

Given that there has been a lot of questions and concern about Mark Stokoe's very apparent conflict of interest (being on the MC and the things he's published and some of the methods used for getting the information), I'd say His Grace had quite enough to go on to remove MS from the MC without the homosexuality issue.

For the conflict of interests issue, I'm actually somewhat surprised Mr. Stokoe was even appointed to such positions of responsibility within the OCA.

What a joke. Hopefully they'll find some other excuse than his alleged homosexuality or else they'll have to explain why nothing happens to those afflicted with similar "passions" in the hierarchy.

Given that there has been a lot of questions and concern about Mark Stokoe's very apparent conflict of interest (being on the MC and the things he's published and some of the methods used for getting the information), I'd say His Grace had quite enough to go on to remove MS from the MC without the homosexuality issue.

For the conflict of interests issue, I'm actually somewhat surprised Mr. Stokoe was even appointed to such positions of responsibility within the OCA.

Well, you can blame the Diocesan Assembly in the fall of 2008 for that! The Diocesan Assembly is usually held in early October. Met. Herman had just been retired, a lot of stuff had come into the open that MS helped crack open - or at least provide the forum for the info to be revealed. So you can see why he was elected to the MC (with an unelected seat on the Diocesan Council as a result). Our Diocesan Assembly this year is being held on October 31, right before the AAC in Seattle. I was really praying MS wouldn't be reelected for a second term. At least we don't have to worry about that now.

What a joke. Hopefully they'll find some other excuse than his alleged homosexuality or else they'll have to explain why nothing happens to those afflicted with similar "passions" in the hierarchy.

Given that there has been a lot of questions and concern about Mark Stokoe's very apparent conflict of interest (being on the MC and the things he's published and some of the methods used for getting the information), I'd say His Grace had quite enough to go on to remove MS from the MC without the homosexuality issue.

For the conflict of interests issue, I'm actually somewhat surprised Mr. Stokoe was even appointed to such positions of responsibility within the OCA.

Well, you can blame the Diocesan Assembly in the fall of 2008 for that! The Diocesan Assembly is usually held in early October. Met. Herman had just been retired, a lot of stuff had come into the open that MS helped crack open - or at least provide the forum for the info to be revealed. So you can see why he was elected to the MC (with an unelected seat on the Diocesan Council as a result). Our Diocesan Assembly this year is being held on October 31, right before the AAC in Seattle. I was really praying MS wouldn't be reelected for a second term. At least we don't have to worry about that now.

Hasn't it been proven Mark Stokoe is a practicing homosexual? (or rather, hasn't he "outted" himself?)

Yes, I would say he's done more than just be a "homosexual" to warrant his removal. This isn't some sort of witch hunt, but we have to recognize that practicing homosexuality isn't compatible with Orthodoxy, and people in our Church need to realize this. (yes, I know most do, but there are some who don't)

I don't think it's fair for us to say that they are being picky-choosy when it comes to removing certain people. We don't know the full stories on issues, and we aren't the ones involved in these scandals.

As has been mentioned before, we can certainly have monks, Priests and Bishops that are "gay", but they absolutely cannot be practicing, and cannot try to justify their actions or feelings. Look at Fr. Seraphim Rose, he was a homosexual, but he left his partner and his lifestyle when he entered the Church, and rejected the homosexual lifestyle.

I'd always supported Mark Stokoe because I think we all owe him for the consistant campaign that thwarted the financial malfeasance and other errant behavior that characterized the OCA's Central Administration for nearly 20 years. But, I haven't understood his strong opposition to Metropolitan Jonah, except I am critical of Met. Jonah's lack of tact when addressing serious matters, not that his positions are wrong, and his embrace of his corrupt predecessors, especially because he had to understand he was elected as the reform primate. Never-the-less, while I've recently been told Mark Stokoe's deviant life style was common knowledge, though not know to me, the publication of his mother's death notice and the revelations therein, should preclude his membership on the higher councils of the church. As for OCANews, it's still is a control for the need for administrative transparency, something for which all of our ecclisial jurisdictions could benefit.

His Grace's actions (including the Holy Communion prohibition), which may not be so popular in the politically correct culture of today's America, yet hopefully, are popular among the Orthodox faithful, demonstrate a boldness for executing the responsibilities of the office of an Eastern Orthodox bishop, and are an example that the OCA's Diocese of the Midwest is once again blessed with a most honorable Chief Sheppard. I think today is Bishop Matthias of Chicago's name day; "Our Master, and our Archierarch, Lord protect him, for Many Years." Not-with-standing our opinions about Mr. Stokoe's life style, he has a good deal of support within the administrative circles in the OCA and the Midwest Diocese, and he operates a news site that enjoys a high readership. It took a strong sense of the responsibilities of his episcopal office, to take this action against Mr. Stokoe. Too many hierarchs today would have either ignored the problem, or resorted to Byzantine intrigue and privately passed word to one in the situation such as Mr. Stokoe, that his resignation for whatever reason he would want to publicize, would be welcomed. But, no, His Grace took a clear and public stand consistent with the teachings of our Faith; "...This is the Faith of the Orthodox; This is the Faith that established the Universe." These actions bode well for the success and progress of his episcopal tenure.

His Grace's actions (including the Holy Communion prohibition), which may not be so popular in the politically correct culture of today's America, yet hopefully, are popular among the Orthodox faithful, demonstrate a boldness for executing the responsibilities of the office of an Eastern Orthodox bishop, and are an example that the OCA's Diocese of the Midwest is once again blessed with a most honorable Chief Sheppard. I think today is Bishop Matthias of Chicago's name day; "Our Master, and our Archierarch, Lord protect him, for Many Years." Not-with-standing our opinions about Mr. Stokoe's life style, he has a good deal of support within the administrative circles in the OCA and the Midwest Diocese, and he operates a news site that enjoys a high readership. It took a strong sense of the responsibilities of his episcopal office, to take this action against Mr. Stokoe. Too many hierarchs today would have either ignored the problem, or resorted to Byzantine intrigue and privately passed word to one in the situation such as Mr. Stokoe, that his resignation for whatever reason he would want to publicize, would be welcomed. But, no, His Grace took a clear and public stand consistent with the teachings of our Faith; "...This is the Faith of the Orthodox; This is the Faith that established the Universe." These actions bode well for the success and progress of his episcopal tenure.

But why for this and not for the fact that his whole position has been one big conflict of interest? That's what I don't like about this. I hate to speak ill of Bishop Matthias, but it just seems fishy- especially if it's true that there are other OCA officials who are openly gay or in some other unrepentant sin but haven't been disciplined.

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

But why for this and not for the fact that his whole position has been one big conflict of interest? That's what I don't like about this. I hate to speak ill of Bishop Matthias, but it just seems fishy- especially if it's true that there are other OCA officials who are openly gay or in some other unrepentant sin but haven't been disciplined.

He also shared a cell, apparently, with Gleb Podmoshenski. The irony...But yeah, I can see how formerly conservative Protestants get all excited over this stuff. It's actually what made them come into the OC. Who cares.

Agreed. The content of Bishop Matthias' letter is hardly new stuff to those of us brought up in the faith. Nor should it be surprising to any convert with a proper understanding of Orthodoxy and our moral teachings.

This is what he was taught by his parents at an early age, at his home parish of Christ the Savior in Parma,Ohio and as a Seminarian at Christ the Savior Seminary in Johnstown, PA. These words are what has been written in numerous pastoral letters over the past forty years of his priesthood by his Bishops in ACROD now of thrice blessed memory - Bishop John (Martin) and Metropolitan Nicholas (Smisko) and said teachings have been available online for years: http://www.acrod.org/readingroom/ethics. GOARCH links to the same teaching materials.

What is the big deal and why the rejoicing? It would be a big deal if he and Bishop Michael had said something different. There are plenty of other issues that are important to the Church as well, let's hear from our Bishops on them as well. I suspect that some of our conservative friends would not be as excited about those teachings as they are about the ones related to sex.

His Grace's actions (including the Holy Communion prohibition), which may not be so popular in the politically correct culture of today's America, yet hopefully, are popular among the Orthodox faithful, demonstrate a boldness for executing the responsibilities of the office of an Eastern Orthodox bishop, and are an example that the OCA's Diocese of the Midwest is once again blessed with a most honorable Chief Sheppard. I think today is Bishop Matthias of Chicago's name day; "Our Master, and our Archierarch, Lord protect him, for Many Years." Not-with-standing our opinions about Mr. Stokoe's life style, he has a good deal of support within the administrative circles in the OCA and the Midwest Diocese, and he operates a news site that enjoys a high readership. It took a strong sense of the responsibilities of his episcopal office, to take this action against Mr. Stokoe. Too many hierarchs today would have either ignored the problem, or resorted to Byzantine intrigue and privately passed word to one in the situation such as Mr. Stokoe, that his resignation for whatever reason he would want to publicize, would be welcomed. But, no, His Grace took a clear and public stand consistent with the teachings of our Faith; "...This is the Faith of the Orthodox; This is the Faith that established the Universe." These actions bode well for the success and progress of his episcopal tenure.

But why for this and not for the fact that his whole position has been one big conflict of interest? That's what I don't like about this. I hate to speak ill of Bishop Matthias, but it just seems fishy- especially if it's true that there are other OCA officials who are openly gay or in some other unrepentant sin but haven't been disciplined.

Are we certain that the reason for Mark Stokoe's removal is his alleged lifestyle and not the ethics complaint brought against him concerning his publishing of allegedly stolen e-mails, which the OCA Ethics Committee said was a matter for Bp. Matthias to deal with?

His Grace's actions (including the Holy Communion prohibition), which may not be so popular in the politically correct culture of today's America, yet hopefully, are popular among the Orthodox faithful, demonstrate a boldness for executing the responsibilities of the office of an Eastern Orthodox bishop, and are an example that the OCA's Diocese of the Midwest is once again blessed with a most honorable Chief Sheppard. I think today is Bishop Matthias of Chicago's name day; "Our Master, and our Archierarch, Lord protect him, for Many Years." Not-with-standing our opinions about Mr. Stokoe's life style, he has a good deal of support within the administrative circles in the OCA and the Midwest Diocese, and he operates a news site that enjoys a high readership. It took a strong sense of the responsibilities of his episcopal office, to take this action against Mr. Stokoe. Too many hierarchs today would have either ignored the problem, or resorted to Byzantine intrigue and privately passed word to one in the situation such as Mr. Stokoe, that his resignation for whatever reason he would want to publicize, would be welcomed. But, no, His Grace took a clear and public stand consistent with the teachings of our Faith; "...This is the Faith of the Orthodox; This is the Faith that established the Universe." These actions bode well for the success and progress of his episcopal tenure.

But why for this and not for the fact that his whole position has been one big conflict of interest? That's what I don't like about this. I hate to speak ill of Bishop Matthias, but it just seems fishy- especially if it's true that there are other OCA officials who are openly gay or in some other unrepentant sin but haven't been disciplined.

Are we certain that the reason for Mark Stokoe's removal is his alleged lifestyle and not the ethics complaint brought against him concerning his publishing of allegedly stolen e-mails, which the OCA Ethics Committee said was a matter for Bp. Matthias to deal with?

"O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us..." (from the Prayer of St Basil the Great)

If someone tried to defend lying as a perfectly natural action people would be just as up in arms about it as they are when homosexuality is given that pass. If everyone agreed that homosexuality is a distortion as much as hate or greed is, then there would be a lot less threads about it. Things are suddenly much less interesting when everyone agrees.

This is really the whole point, and it is why we get hung up on this issue. Not because we view it as a greater sin, or a greater issue, but because so many would minimize it.

Far more minimize usury (ie credit cards) than homosexuality. There are dozens of canons about usury. Where's the outcry about that? Divorce numbers are obscene in this country. While the Orthodox Church allows for such a thing, it is also patently clear that it is a sin and lamentable. More Orthodox go to great lengths to defend divorce (esp. online vis-a-vis RCs) than who lambast this practice.

I agree with everything you've said, but how does that have any effect on how one should feel about homosexuality? All of those things are big problems, yes, and warrant discussion. Start one.

It's as if I said that the New England Patriots are a good football team, and you responded by saying, "but the Eagles are good, too!" This, while true, doesn't negate the fact that the Patriots are good. If I said, "the Patriots are undeniably going to win the Super Bowl", then there would be an argument, just like if I had said, "homosexuality is the gravest sin of our time, and the only one worth addressing", you would have an argument, but no one said this.

My point is that the way people go on and on and on and on (to the point where we once had to have a moratorium on homosexuality on OC.net!) is that while it may not explicitly be stated that it's the gravest sin, it is implicitly acted as if it is such. Note that people such as myself, who do not deny and even actively say that homosexual acts are objectively sinful and against the law of God, get absolutely and utterly sick of hearing about it. Who on here exalts the practice? Who even brings it up in a positive light first? The only time it is mentioned on here is in yet another post whereby we hear someone condemn it once again.

I ignore 99% of them. For some reason, this one put me over the edge.

I can understand why. Someone brings up the idea that Mark Stokoe was removed from his seat on the Metropolitan Council for ethical reasons connected to the publication of possibly stolen emails and not for reasons tied to his alleged homosexual orientation, yet no one wants to address the ethical charges. The discussion of homosexuality goes on unabated.

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

It seems that Mr. Stokoe was removed from his positions of responsibility because Bishop Matthias doesn't like his Web site, which--I guess--is certainly His Grace's prerogative if he thinks ocanews.org is a force for division in the Church. Whether I agree that his decision was proper or not is another thing.

Personally, I don't like Mark Stokoe's Web site, either. It served its original purpose of exposing the great OCA financial scandal of years ago, which could explain why Archbishop Job liked it, but I think it's degenerated into a vigilante rumor mill since then.

It seems that Mr. Stokoe was removed from his positions of responsibility because Bishop Matthias doesn't like his Web site, which--I guess--is certainly His Grace's prerogative if he thinks ocanews.org is a force for division in the Church. Whether I agree with his decision or not is another thing. Personally, I don't like Mark Stokoe's Web site, either. It served its original purpose of exposing the great OCA financial scandal of years ago, which could explain why Archbishop Job liked it, but I think it's degenerated into a vigilante rumor mill since then.

I don't know for sure, I think all the Orthodox ecclesial jurisdictions in North America need far more openness in their administrative work of the church. This is an evolutionary development since the 1970's as the hierarchy has marginalized the role of the laity in church administrative matters, at least the common laity, not so with the big donors who remain in the inner circles of power and are comfortable keeping everthing close to the vest. The church is far too Byzantine in its non-Liturgial operations. Don't ever forget, the financial malfeasance, right smack dab in the Central Administration of the Orthodox Church in America, existed for at least 19 years, from what we now know. I would go so far as to say, without OCANews and the deligent determination of its editor, the OCA's malfeasance may have never been exposed and terminated. The GOAA had Orthodox Christian Laity (OCL) providing the news of administrative activities that were secretively conducted in the 1990's (+/-), but OCL has elevated its mission, and there is no regular source of information that the church does not wish to be known. The GOAA had "Voithia" too, but its sponsor, GOAL (Greek Orthodox American Leaders), agreed to shut down with the forced resignation of Archbishop Spyridon (9/99). For GOAA independent reporting, we have a Greek-American newspaper, "The National Herald," but the biases and yellow style (Old World) journalistic inclinations of its primary church reporter/commentator, minimize its benefits. OCANews has been helpful in exposing AOCANA secrets too; and to some extent information about the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese. And lately, if OCANews hadn't exposed the data in the e-mails (so to speak), the truth would likely have remained in question (aside from whether you agree with the method of the publication of the information), and the OCA could have drifted back to its mode of operation that enabled the financial malfeasance. Overall, I think OCANews serves a vital need as a source of information. Even when contentious matters are revealed by the churches, it could be that they know something will get out due to OCANews' existence.

So what was the point of the pastoral letter if this has nothing to do with his homosexuality?

Anyway, imo for better or worse probably a good thing he's gone, though for different reasons. It was great Stokoe was able to whistle blow where he was, but his presence in that capacity just screams conflict of interest.

Too bad the closest Church to me is OCA *takes a swig of vodka*

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

Here is the text of the letter to Mark Stokoe that is similar that in the public announcement:

"In the months that I have been administrator of the diocese and now its archpastor, I have observed the divisivness and the promoting of gossip that your website “Orthodox Christians for Accountability” provides. It is not a healthy vehicle for the Church. It has hampered Pan-Orthodox unity, and it has encouraged those who disrespect the clergy and the Church to express their disdain and sometimes outright hatred for the Church, the hierarchs, the clergy and its faithful.

As the archpastor of this diocese, I can no longer tolerate the existence of this website being administered by a member of the Metropolitan Council and Diocesan Council. Your representation on these Councils leaves the impression, whether correct or not, that I approve of your website, and I do not!"http://ocanews.org/news/StokoeDismissed8.10.11.html

And, here is some text that is not present in the public announcement:

"The final straw that “broke the camel’s back” for me was when you printed a lengthy article promoting homosexuality, written by an anonymous author. That article was a complete distortion of the Church’s teachings and twisted the canons of the Church to justify its position. If that isn’t bad enough, the author did not have the courage to put his name on the article. It appears to me that if someone cannot reveal temnselves in the light, they they are coming from darkness.

I can only hope and pray that someday you yourself will realize the harm this website brings to the Church and you will decide to close it down."

The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!

Speaking of glass houses, maybe Stan/Vara should stop teasing Metropolitan Jonah about his weight. Stan/Vara is not exactly a Bolshoi ballerina himself.

Really? The photo must be slimming then.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

It seems that Mr. Stokoe was removed from his positions of responsibility because Bishop Matthias doesn't like his Web site, which--I guess--is certainly His Grace's prerogative if he thinks ocanews.org is a force for division in the Church. Whether I agree that his decision was proper or not is another thing.

Personally, I don't like Mark Stokoe's Web site, either. It served its original purpose of exposing the great OCA financial scandal of years ago, which could explain why Archbishop Job liked it, but I think it's degenerated into a vigilante rumor mill since then.

OOoooo! Did anyone feel the heavens shake? That was PtA and I agreeing.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Well, we are all abominations, no? Or are they especially more repulsive than us liars, usurers, those of us who are drowning in cesspools of lust, gluttons, murderers...

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She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.--"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18--I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --Life went on no matter who was wrong or right

They can be accepted just like gluttons, greedy, angry people. What they, nor any of the other mentioned, can't do is to try to change the teaching of the Church about their sins. It's like a doctor. Maybe he can even smoke. It's bad as it is, but you don't get his license for that. If he starts teaching people that smoking is harmless and in fact natural and even healthy, than he loses his license.

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Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

I don't understand where homosexuals want to be accepted in Christianity.

Abomination is abomination. Period.

As I have indicated above, all discussion on homosexuality and the Church must be held in another thread. The first part of this post is germane to this thread but the rest crosses the line. I am leaving it here, as well as two responses to the offending parts, as an example of what not to post here. Please cooperate in the future. Any violation will result in moderation for violating the following rule: "Keep Threads on Target -- For the forum-challenged, a thread is a sequence of postings, or messages, related to a primary topic. For purposes of continuity and consistency, please keep ALL threads on target to their original purpose. If you want to deviate, start a new thread." Thanks, Second Chance, Section Moderator

Frankly, at this point, I'm happy I've got a bishop who isn't afraid to actually publicly take a stance.

God love Archbishop Job, but he was adverse to confrontation...

No, just weary of it coming constantly, starting with his conversion.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth