Somebody has never used simcraft. Which isn't exactly a dps meter, but I see it as an extension along the same goals.

---------- Post added 2012-09-08 at 03:32 PM ----------

Funny thing about that is, if you're wrong, it's no longer an opinion at all, but simply an incorrect statement. Not that I necessarily disagree with your post. I'm just tired of people using "there's no wrong opinion" as some sort of defense.

Why are you trying to disprove me with an example that's clearly not a dps meter? Simcraft is the theory behind the craft and actual human interaction is not taken in account.

Drake, seriously, I appreciate the fact that most of your posts make sense, but please refrain from arguing with the sole purpose of arguing.

And back to topic: GW2 dont need a meter. There is almost no bersek timer, each class contribute differently even though they can all dps. Why force one to drop his support/control traits/skills just to be able to dps competitively? This is no WOW, where a dps care not about healing nor tanking, just his own survival in group fights. I think WoW pvp is more similar, although not that extreme.

Recount isn't just DPS and HPS. Recount has over a dozen little measures that it tracks during a fight. It also tracks exactly what abilities do how much damage to which enemies, including tracking misses and crits and DoT ticks etc etc.

---------- Post added 2012-09-08 at 03:36 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Vespian

Why are you trying to disprove me with an example that's clearly not a dps meter? Simcraft is the theory behind the craft and actual human interaction is not taken in account.

Simcraft is one of the tools used to theorycraft in WoW. Recount is a weaker tool for the job, but it is still a tool towards that purpose. Just because it doesn't remove the factor of human error, does not mean it's not a theorycrafting tool, it just makes it a weaker tool than those that do remove that factor.

It has the advantage of tracking the actual performance of your raid as a whole in actual application, whereas Simcraft is entirely about the theory behind what works. Recount shows you the application of said theory, which is still valuable information.

Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-08 at 08:37 PM.

I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

There is no recount in gw2, so i suggest discuss whether if recount is a necessary or not on the appropriate sub forum (aka WoW ones). Im getting sick and tired that every damn thread in gw2 sub forum someone HAS to mention wow. I know this is a wow centric site, but guys give us gw2 player some place to tale about gw2 only. Please.

This is absolutely, absolutely incredibly, wrong. The damage meter is the result of theory crafting + human interaction and therefore ultimately not a tool to be used to gain information on "the ultimate spec". Human interaction is a very, very unstable variable and should never be used as a means to proof a point.

No kidding. But a meter can tell me if *I* am doing better in a given spec than another. It can also help me refine *my* rotations, etc. It's precisely the personal nature of it that's valuable and when one's missing you cannot tell how *you* are doing. BTW, try to theorycraft without numbers. How's that work again?

Simcraft etc are nice, but it's hard to account for fight mechanics within them. Again, meters tell me how real people in my group are doing and let me analyse not only DPS but a lot of other things.

Recount isn't just DPS and HPS. Recount has over a dozen little measures that it tracks during a fight. It also tracks exactly what abilities do how much damage to which enemies, including tracking misses and crits and DoT ticks etc etc.

---------- Post added 2012-09-08 at 03:36 PM ----------

Simcraft is one of the tools used to theorycraft in WoW. Recount is a weaker tool for the job, but it is still a tool towards that purpose. Just because it doesn't remove the factor of human error, does not mean it's not a theorycrafting tool, it just makes it a weaker tool than those that do remove that factor.

Alright, so I should have disclaimered my post with "unless there is no alternative"? You or your grandma playing will obviously bring different results. Probably a difference equal to the difference between light and dark. It is not a way to design talent builds. You use actual math for that, such as the tool you mentioned.

Originally Posted by clevin

No kidding. But a meter can tell me if *I* am doing better in a given spec than another. It can also help me refine *my* rotations, etc. It's precisely the personal nature of it that's valuable and when one's missing you cannot tell how *you* are doing. BTW, try to theorycraft without numbers. How's that work again?

Simcraft etc are nice, but it's hard to account for fight mechanics within them. Again, meters tell me how real people in my group are doing and let me analyse not only DPS but a lot of other things.

Exactly, it can only be used on a per-person basis to refine that persons play style. And sure, you can analyse procs, skill use, perhaps even rotations, but they'll only count for that person.

A sim will allow you to see perfection. A dps meter will allow you to see human application of that theory and each individual will have different end-results. Most of the time, anyway.

Alright, so I should have disclaimered my post with "unless there is no alternative"? You or your grandma playing will obviously bring different results. Probably a difference equal to the difference between light and dark. It is not a way to design talent builds. You use actual math for that, such as the tool you mentioned.

Recount is also useful for seeing all your theory put into actual application, across your raid group as a cohesive unit. World of Logs is more extensive and detailed in this aspect, but it's also not information right at your fingertips, and sometimes you don't need to muddle with the details. You don't want to decide on "ultimate specs" entirely based on theory. Remember that communism works great in theory, but not in application.

Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-09-08 at 08:42 PM.

I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

There is no wrong opinion, yours cant be superior to mine. Its simply my way of seeing the tool differing from yours. Usually I set a certain mark that dpses in my raid must pass to progress, then a higher one for farm runs. Whoever s below that mark certainly needs to improve, but I dont really care if one is miles above of that "comfortable mark". If they choose to play competitively upon meter number, thats fine to me but it s absolutely not a requirement to participate in my raid.

Of course opinions can be wrong if they contradict verifiable facts. If they don't - if it's merely preferring A to B, then of course you'er right. But you were attempting to state an opinion as fact.

Also, you set a mark for people to meet. Um... how do you know if they're hitting that mark without meters? Hmm?

And back to topic: GW2 dont need a meter. There is almost no bersek timer, each class contribute differently even though they can all dps. Why force one to drop his support/control traits/skills just to be able to dps competitively? This is no WOW, where a dps care not about healing nor tanking, just his own survival in group fights. I think WoW pvp is more similar, although not that extreme.

I've no opinion on GW2 and meters since I'm not playing yet. However, I wonder how someone tells what traits are useful if they want to increase their damage. In most games mixing talents can make one more or less effective at a task. Meters are nothing more than a measurement of that effectiveness. So if I have build A and I'm thinking Build B might be better... how can I tell that if there are no meters and the difference I'm looking for is damage? If the difference is prnounced, then I might be able to tell it because I'm kiling things twice as fast... but a 20% increase probably wouldn't be noticeable in that fashion yet it's still significant.

Recount is also useful for seeing all your theory put into actual application, across your raid group as a cohesive unit. World of Logs is more extensive and detailed in this aspect, but it's also not information right at your fingertips, and sometimes you don't need to muddle with the details. You don't want to decide on "ultimate specs" entirely based on theory. Remember that communism works great in theory, but not in application.

Recount valuable to gw2? Seriously man come on. I cant access that forum from work thats why I visit and post here.

Recount is also useful for seeing all your theory put into actual application, across your raid group as a cohesive unit. World of Logs is more extensive and detailed in this aspect, but it's also not information right at your fingertips, and sometimes you don't need to muddle with the details. You don't want to decide on "ultimate specs" entirely based on theory. Remember that communism works great in theory, but not in application.

Yeah Drake, that's why I mentioned the whole human thing in the first place. Thanks for catching that.

Recount isn't just DPS and HPS. Recount has over a dozen little measures that it tracks during a fight. It also tracks exactly what abilities do how much damage to which enemies, including tracking misses and crits and DoT ticks etc etc.[COLOR="red"]

If you read my very first reply, you would know I dont see damage meter just as damage meter.

Originally Posted by clevin

Of course opinions can be wrong if they contradict verifiable facts. If they don't - if it's merely preferring A to B, then of course you'er right. But you were attempting to state an opinion as fact.

Also, you set a mark for people to meet. Um... how do you know if they're hitting that mark without meters? Hmm?

I've no opinion on GW2 and meters since I'm not playing yet. However, I wonder how someone tells what traits are useful if they want to increase their damage. In most games mixing talents can make one more or less effective at a task. Meters are nothing more than a measurement of that effectiveness. So if I have build A and I'm thinking Build B might be better... how can I tell that if there are no meters and the difference I'm looking for is damage? If the difference is prnounced, then I might be able to tell it because I'm kiling things twice as fast... but a 20% increase probably wouldn't be noticeable in that fashion yet it's still significant.

Its actually very simple. You got 19 people that can DPS including 2 tanks, got boss HP numberwritten on its face - I ll let you figure out the rest. And if you dont play GW2, I seriously advise you stop replying in this thread, since your input is no longer relevant.