Posted
by
Zonk
on Thursday October 26, 2006 @12:40PM
from the we-didn't-want-to-pay-the-money dept.

Eurogamer reports on comments from Sony defending the loss of rumble in the SIXAXIS controller. "'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"

I think that sony really made a poor tradeoff with losing rumble and adding the sixaxis thing (though it's actually only THREE axises (axies?) being that +/-X is one axis, +/-Y is an axis, and +/-Z is an axis, but anyway...). The thing about rumble support is that game pads have had it for so long now that (for me anyway) I don't notice when it's there, but I certainly notice when it's missing.

To expand on the previous response to the parent, If you rotate a ball it won't change it's X,Y, or Z position- but that is clearly motion that you could track. Thus, roll, pitch and yaw are independant of X,Y, and Z movement.

I work with machines doing 4 axis movement. You can't do everything with only 3 (though with 5 you can fake the 6th).

Ah, I think I see your misunderstanding. We're talking force vectors on a rigid body here, and while the terminology is the same as in general vector mathematics, the application is not quite.Let's assume that our object is a sphere 1 unit in radius, centered on the origin. Applying a force [0, 1, 0] (a unit vector along the Y axis) centered on the origin will cause the sphere to accelerate along the Y axis without turning. However, applying the same force at the edge of the sphere where it intersects th

horz vs. yaw = turn right vs. strafe right. There is linear travel and there is rotation and they are different ways of manipulating an object in three dimensions. Time, a debateable fourth dimension has one way linear travel but no rotation.

Of course it was stupid to remove rumble, and of course it wasn't necessary to support the motion sensing. Sony's just trying to make the best of bad deal. The rumble patent is probably the one part of the PS3 development/marketing on which I actually sympathize with them. The patent was total crap. Way to broad, way too obvious. We should be thanking Sony for trying to fight patent, rather than rewarding Immersion through settling.

Everything else Sony has done is boneheaded (going for overpriced design, trying to impose BluRay through the PS3, arrogant statements, E3 screwups, poor production management), but on the rumble patent, I do feel for them.

Everything else Sony has done is boneheaded (going for overpriced design, trying to impose BluRay through the PS3, arrogant statements, E3 screwups, poor production management), but on the rumble patent, I do feel for them.

I have to agree, the Rumble feature, while I feel is an important tool for gaming, would not attribute much to poor sales alone, if they happen. I would predict that it's all about price point, no matter how 'great' a system is. Just look at the NeoGeo.

Couple things1) I don't get it about the vibration thingy. Did y'all really like that? I found it quite anoying and turned it off whenever I could. I just assumed they took it out because of poor responses from focus groups or something. I was quite surprised to hear such a backlash about this. Does this actually either help, or broaden the experience of your gaming? More power to ya and sorry it's gone, but if you(coletively) wouldn't have brought it up, I wouldn't have noticed.

Of course it was stupid to remove rumble, and of course it wasn't necessary to support the motion sensing. Sony's just trying to make the best of bad deal. The rumble patent is probably the one part of the PS3 development/marketing on which I actually sympathize with them. The patent was total crap. Way to broad, way too obvious. We should be thanking Sony for trying to fight patent, rather than rewarding Immersion through settling.

Yeah, this is obviously just a case of sour grapes when they were denied the

I think it was sour grapes on Immersion's part to bring this topic up over and over again when they saw the additional $90m swimming away... You really think they care about the gamers?

Ha! No, of course not. The point is that I have no sympathy for Sony, because they are a terrible abuser of IP laws themselves. They got in a fight with another big IP asshole, Immersion, and lost. Now they pretend as if they never wanted to have rumble anyway.

Yes, because there are a whole lot of people who are unabashedly ignorant of the subject, don't read comments, and are full of Righteous Indignation despite (or perhaps because of) these factors. In other words, because this is Slashdot;)

I'm split on Rumble, I really liked it in some games but overall I feel that a new control scheme is more important than a subtle feedback mechanism that can partially be replaced with auditory cues.In fact I wonder why no-one is criticizing Microsoft to be the only major console maker to leave out motion tracking technology of any sort. I think they may have to add it later, after the benefits become apparent through a number of Wii and PS3 games. Game makers even in the first generation are coming up wi

here is why I want tactile feedback:
I usually play games on a moderately large screen (actually, it's only a 24" screen, but it's on my desk so I'm close to it) and I usually play with the sound off or down very low. Because of this, I like tactile feedback as a way to let me know that there is something I need to be paying attention to outside of my field of vision. When things are crazy and there are explosions and stuff going on all over the screen, those red flashing things on the sides of the screen

I like tactile feedback too, not I did not say auditory cues were a complete replacement - and I agree it feels good when you get a hit and feel it in the controller.I am basically saying that if I had to choose one I would seek motion control because immersion in a game for me is enhanced when I have to think less about the control, and motion based input is more natural for control of some elements of many games - when you lean the controller over in a tight turn in a racing game, that will actually do so

I forgot to mention in my last post that "Six Axis" is actually a well-accepted term for motion controllers with these same six degrees of freedom as the Sony controller - were you complaining back when the introduced the SpaceOrb [mindflux.com.au] or rallying now against the current Logitech [smackall.com] 3-D controllers?

Another term is 6DOF (degrees of freedom) which is a bit more descriptive.

You are engaging in equivocation. There are six logically orthogonal dimensions or axes in the SIXAXIS system. The state it returns cannot be fully specified in three dimensions. Yes, it exists in a space with three spatial dimensions, so what? Its state is more than a position in those dimensions.

What do you think Pitch, Roll, and Yaw refer to? Those would be vertical, horizontal, and fore/aft respectively.

It took me a minute to parse what you were trying to say, but basically you are saying that the SIXAXIS controller uses six axies, basically three axies on which the controller can be translated, and then the three rotational axies with the origin at the center of gravity of the controller.
That does actually make sense, I didn't realize that the controller supported translation and rotation (I was actually under the impression that transation wasn't recognized, and that it basically sensed tilt only).

I was slightly mistating, the SIXAXIS gives translational acceleration (not position, though I suppose if you calibrate it in a stationary position, you can deduce one by tracking the other) in three axes, and orientation in three axes. But, other than that, yeah.

Dimensions are also defined as degrees of freedom. You can't define location and rotation with a single point in 3d space you can define them by using two points in 3d space or one point in 6d space.

Think of it this way you have a front and rear bumper on your car. When you're doing donuts your rear license plate is moving differently than the front license plate. So if you want to be able to do donuts in a game you need to be able to move two points in 3d space or one point in 6d space.

I'd prefer a controller that I'd NOT have second thoughts about tossing across the room. If it's too light, I might feel like it'll break if it falls off the couch, let alone when I throw it at the TV. A controller should feel solid and hefty, like it'll take a good deal of abuse, and come back for more.

If it's too light, I might feel like it'll break if it falls off the couch, let alone when I throw it at the TV.

Which is why the Xbox is the platform of choice if you're prone to do that. Both my controllers (one super-size original and one smaller S model) both get thrown regularly (and with mucho spite), and, well, you should see the other guys!

You forget that the new controller is meant to be used for motion control, which means holding it in the air - anything held for very long at all is going to feel very heavy after a while, which is I think a large reason for reducing the weight (I still think the lawsuit was the primary reason to rid themselves of Rumble).

After all, if Sony wanted weight they could just add weights to the controller really cheaply. They kept it light for a reason and I think a good one.

I've said before that when a company or country gets to the 1.0e7 or 1.0e8 scale, the whole idea of "vote with your dollars" or even plain democracy just simply breaks down. Any negative news is chatter, compared to the background 95-99% of complacent sheeple.

When widespread customer outcry is "chatter," you're losing sight of what your role is as a company.

What "widespread customer outcry"? Doesn't the console need to, y'know, be RELEASED before there can be any "widespread customer outcry"?

A lot of the people who write about the PS3 on the Internet consider the lack of rumble to me a big minus, this is true. But a lot of the people who wrote about the movie "Snakes on a Plane" prior to its release were really positive, and that didn't seem to matter much.

So, they're making 150 million to 200 million controllers for 800 thousand PS3's that may or may not be out on Nov 19? Lessee here. I don't know about anyone else, but I simply won't be needing 1500-2000 controllers for the PS3 that I would theorehtically purchase.

Oh, and Microsoft and Nintendo have rumble and great battery life. I'm not worried. What I might be compelled to worry about is randomly exploding controllers, but maybe that's why they expect everyone to have so many spares. Does make multiplayer seem a lot more interesting, though.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been less than gentle with my controller after getting frustrated with a game. I'm currently on my third (which works out to about 1 every two years). Maybe they anticipate playing a PS3 will be really, really frustrating.

Must have forgot to end the sarcasm (and bad math) tags after my first paragraph. I figured it was implied, but I see that you needed the joke explained. See, I know that there will be more than the initial shipments will be followed by more shipments. And if the PS3 sells like PS2's they will likely have to make even more than 200 million seeing as you don't need an adaptor for more than two controllers. The funny part was when I pretended I didn't know that. Don't worry, you'll understand humor one o

Must have forgot to end the sarcasm (and bad math) tags after my first paragraph. I figured it was implied, but I see that you needed the joke explained. See, I know that there will be more than the initial shipments will be followed by more shipments. And if the PS3 sells like PS2's they will likely have to make even more than 200 million seeing as you don't need an adaptor for more than two controllers. The funny part was when I pretended I didn't know that. Don't worry, you'll understand humor one of th

It's pretty obvious that he was referring to the entire PS3 run. I know it's popular to hate Sony (heck, I do!) but making their comments seem stupid when yours really are the ones that are doesn't help your cause much.

I'll give you credit for one thing, not posting anonymously, other than that, your Sony fan selectiveness forgot to point out, he mentioned BOTH competitors, not only Nintendo. Are Sony fans really that scared abo

I've never really found the rumble feature to be that important. My Wavebird controller for the Gamecube doesn't have rumble and I've found it to be much more fun to use than the standard wired controllers.

Personally, I can't stand rumble. In a game that utilizes it, the first thing I do is shut it off. I find myself wondering if people really care that much about rumble, or if they're just looking for every excuse they can find to bash Sony so they make a bigger deal out of it than they normally would. Like with most things, it's probably a bit of both.

love the wave bird my self,but certain games wouldnt be the same,where vibration queue is just as important as visuals.some games its almost a necessity.MGS series,resident evil, games where "feeling" an enemy approach is easier than seeing them.

Most games I have played on the PS2 that had rumble were IMHO done very badly and in the majority of cases it was better just to turn it off. In some of course rumble can actually set the mood and enhance the game-play. At least on the PS2 you do have the option of turning rumble off but this is a feature of the game not the PS1/2 or controller. I actually use the Logitech 2 wireless controller which IMHO is very comfortable, has rumble if you want and fun to use. The batteries for this seem to last for ag

Sony is upfront. It's not out, and they told you no rumble. So there goes that point. Their reasoning? They dont want to be strongarmed by a patent that is stupid to begin with. My question is... and I'm assuming the answer is yes: Is Nintendo making a wireless REGULAR controller with rumble? I haven't heard and just thought to ask that now. I'm assuming they're coming out with a Wavebird Mark II or somethin?

Well, since you haven't heard, Nintendo is ready to launch their Wii console. The controller for the Wii has full motion sensing capabilities, allows you to swing it like a baseball bat, translating directly on the screen, your movements. It is shaped like a remote control, has a speaker built in, as well as a small amount of memory for player profiles. Oh, and it has rumble features. So in a way, yes. But normal controller? No.

Sorry I've had a bad day... but um ya thats why I capitalized REGULAR... I know about the wii-mote or whatever, I'm just curious if I can upgrade my Wavebird or if I'm stuck with wireless and rumble with the Wii for games that don't use the Wiimotes sensor capabilities.

Since their batteries are non-replaceable my guess is with rumble, you piss through batteries a lot more, need to recharge more, your joystick becomes paperweight a lot sooner and Sony has to replace it with a brand new battery/joystick a lot quicker = they loose a lot more money.Your general consumers will probably feel something missing and be a little upset, I also agree though, giving me poor motion control over rumble = a bad move. Personally I can't stand people who turn the joystick all over the plac

Come on. What does it really add? A slight buzzing in your hands when an explosion takes place that blows you away through the 7.1 sound system and the superb graphics through a 60" DLP 1080p screen isn't all that important. In the grand scheme of things it takes away from the rest of the modern experience with it's toy like effect. It's such a minor issue.

It provides stimulation to an extra sense. Without it, games can only stimulate the player's visual and auditory senses. They can see and hear the game. Rumble may be pretty rudimentary, but it adds tactile stimulation that is not usually there. In broad terms, by increasing the number of senses you can stimulate in a player, you increase the immersion into the game experience, which theoretically makes it more enjoyable.

Theoretically, it adds zero realism. It might bring in another sense, I don't think that a little buzz in my hands adds any sense of realism, which is what I see immersion as. There used to be a chest plate device back in the day that actually thumped you in the chest for those rumble effects. That makes much more sense as far as adding a realistic sense into the effect.

With the right sound system, you get a better "rumble" than through the little buzzer in the controller.

This is exactly what I'm concerned about, there is such a thing as having a controller that's "too light". After a point, it just feels flimsy and cheap, and becomes a constant reminder that it's a toy. The Dualshock controllers were quite good, just the right amount of weight, any lighter, and it begin to feel cheap. I do use Wavebird GCN controllers, but those are a little larger, giving them a bit more weight than the SIXAXIS will probably have, and I still wish (for all their greatness) they had a little more heft to them.

The PS3 is a $600 console, it's being marketted as a media entertainment center, and as something slightly more sophisticated than JUST a game console (supposedly), having a really light-weight controller is sort of going against their overarching image.

Which brings me to another point. What is Sony's overarching philosophy for this console? They don't seem to have a very unified idea in mind: art-deco looking console, utilitarian interface, lightweight controllers with motion sensors, with an Xtreme Gen Y sounding name... all these things really don't fit together to create a unified whole. If it has no unique feel in mind, then why should I buy it over the other guys' consoles? Nintendo spent YEARS developing a finely crafted gestalt that followed their unique philosophy on gaming, so much that the Wii almost has a living, breathing, personality. Microsoft a bit less so, but they've at least met the status quo in terms of having a unified feel (it's just not that original). But the PS3 just seems schizophrenic, it has no gestalit. It's as if each piece was designed completely independantly and the thing was just thrown together. Seriously, why should I get excited about something that was built with such an unprofessional looking attitude in design philosophy? While Joe Public may not be analyzing it like this, it comes across, subliminaly, as being unsure of itself and unable to deliver a really solid feel that will win people over.

Everyone keeps talking about "there is such a thing as 'too light'". Think about this:1) How heavy is your TV remote?

2) I imagine most of the weight in the DualShocks were the rumble motors.

3) If you really need the weight, wait for my new patented Gravity Enhancer for the sixAxis controller. Don't mind that its basically a lead weight and a mini-tube of crazy-glue. Letting the customer assemble the pieces helps us keep the price down.

(I also plan on introducing a rumble add-on that uses an electric plug

This isn't a valid argument; you don't hold your TV remote for extended periods of time. You do with a game controller. I agree with "there is such a thing as too light"; I found the N64 controller without a Rumble Pak to be disconcertingly light.

Another thing to consider is that you hold a tv remote, like a Wii remote, in one hand. The standards for lightness are very different for a one-handed device over a device meant to be held with two hands. A device held in one hand will feel heavier than a device of the same weight held two-handed.

Translation: "We were just going to give you the same old Dual Shock 2, but we have to copy Nintendo! However, we couldn't find a way to add tilt sensors to the Dual Shock 2 without removing the rumble." The controller is still very similar to the controller that shipped with the original Playstation when it first launched almost 12 years ago. They probably 1) couldn't find a way to stuff both of them into the same old controller case, or 2) it would've cost too much to do so, and they're already losing

If ignorant of the almightySixaxis Creation Power,then you are android dumb,educated singularity stupidand unworthy of existence -with your death as positive.Killing you is not immoral -only unlawful by WiiMen.

This is backwards justification on techinical terms for a decision that was made because of the IP dispute between Sony and Immersion. I say dispute, but really Sony's getting their ass handed to them in the courts by Immersion. Immersion has already won a ~80M dollar decision based upon IP of the vibration feedback and an injunction against the infringing controllers, but Sony has since gone to the scorched earth strategy in endless appeals.fwiw, Microsoft also infringed in the XBox controller, but chose

[quote]"'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"[/quote]

When Sony was first asked why rumble was missing, they told us it was technically impossible/too difficult to do with the new tilt sensing. That wasn't infeasible, but highly disappointing. Then the lid was blown off of that.

Now Sony has changed their tune. It's a matter of price. The cost of $.01 over 150 million controllers is non-trivial. That seems feasible, why didn't you say that in the first place? Why does your controller cost $50 when you're saving us money? How is it that Nintendo's more advanced controller that features rumble, motion sensing, and even a speaker is $10 less than your controller until you start buy an addon which also features motion sensing? (Microsoft, you've got some explaining to do too)

The waffling about this doesn't alleviate the suspicion that Sony remove the rumble because of the lawsuit against them. We're not convinced you're trying to save us money when you're charging $500 to $600 for your system, in excess of $60 for games, and $50 for controllers. The original suspicion, that you're too arrogant and sour to suck it up and pay someone else for their proprietary technology, sadly fits the facts far better than anything you've told us yet. Given that the settlement for the lawsuit was around $100 million for years worth of controllers and games it doesn't strike me that the cost of working with Immersion is really so terrible a thing.

This isn't a defense, it's an excuse. I've never gotten the impression from any Sony representative that they are actually sad to see rumble go. The words of Sony aren't the sad, but necessary statements that game and hardware designers make as reality defeats cool concepts and ideas. They are distractions and red herrings from a ugliness Sony had hoped we wouldn't see.

Honesty will get you a lot farther than lies "chatter"ing through your teeth.

Blue tooth? Sixaxis? Battery life? all buzzwords (well the last is good but everyone now has great battery life). The only reason they added Sixaxis is because of the lack of rumble. Blue tooth isn't needed or isn't crucial because the 360 has great connection system. Battery life is good but if you have a rechargable who really cares if you get 3 days or 6 days? Just replug it in at the end of the sessions.Sony is trying to hype again. They claim they didn't take down Lik-sang, now they are trying

Come on, if they weren't using Bluetooth they'd be using some other form of wireless. Wireless is a good thing for controllers, just ask anyone with a 360... as long as it maintains a good battery life (which Bluetooth was designed for) then why not use that instead of something else? Especially when you get the benefit of being able to use bluetooth keyboard and mice with the PS3 (which it does support out of the box).As for Sixaxis - you are an idiot if you think that brings nothing to the table as far

Sixaxis != Wii's motion detection. Six axis is an attempt to bring it however it was put into the system late because they had to do something to replace Rumble. Not because it is better then rumble.Yes wireless is important but Blue tooth again isn't something you need to trade for rumble. 360 has wireless AND rumble. Wii has wireless, motion detection and rumble. See where this is going? Sony is missing a valuable piece. It might not be important but acting like it's a good thing they skipped rumbl

Of course Sixaxis is different than the Wii controller in terms of what exactly it can sense. The WIi controller will probably be somewhat more refined in exactly what it can determine with external sensors.However that does not invalidate the kinds of things that developers are doing today with the PS3 controller. From more natural flight control in games like Lair or Warhawks, to body checking in hockey games there are some cool control enhancements going in that I, as a gamer, am looking forward to. B

"I simply do not see how one can be excited for motion control ideas in the Wii and not in the PS3, even if there are differences in what motion can be detected."That's exactly why one can be excited about the Wii and not the PS3's motion sensing. The whole concept is different.

The Wii offers a 'wand' that allows usage like every-day object. Golf clubs, tennis rackets, swords, guns, etc. You get more of a feeling that you are in the game.

Also, I am not preferring the PS3 or the Wii controller since that determination would be on a per-game basis for myself. I am simply excited that so many people are thinking about motion detection and what can be done with it in games. PS3 developers and Wii developers WILL get ideas from each other about new control schemes and that is great for owners of both platforms!

Yeah, but the way Wii does it is smooth, where I can't see how the PS3 is going to be smooth like that.It's obvious how to hold the Wiimote to make it act like a golf club. But how to hold the sixaxis? This is just a dual-shock-shaped controller. Do I hold it by one of the 2 handles and hope I don't accidentally let it go, since I can't really get my hand all the way around it? Do I have to let go of it completely and then re-grip it in the middle? Do I hold it like normal, where the flexibility of the

Yeah, but the way Wii does it is smooth, where I can't see how the PS3 is going to be smooth like that.

Modern accelerometers are extremely sensitive - both should be really smooth. That's not going to be an issue. It should be able to measure if you're moving in any direction or twisting to the smallest degree.

It's the same kind of things they use in laptops to park the HD's, and that people have hacked into things like the Smackbook (tapping side of laptop switches apps) or the lightsaber mod that makes

I've personally been using the wireless logitech controller for PS2 for some time now, and i basically never use the rumble feature as it is. I keep it turned off, and my battery life is phenomenal. however, i don't agree that Sony should have completely removed the feature. i won't be surprised to see later versions of the controller offer rumble as an option, and games will be able to support it if they wish.

People complain about the loss of rumble but I've always seen it as a gimmick that was only effectively pulled off in a few games. The rest of it was just a toy not necessarily to the actually game or, even more importantly, the game mechanics. How do I know this? Because most games on the PC never bothered with it.

Take a look at gaming on the PC side and it is devoid of rumble and trust me when I say Logitech and Microsoft would like nothing better than to sell you something that "rumbles" especially a gamer thinks they need but it never took off. I don't think World of Warcraft needs rumble and if CounterStrike players don't notice it and The Sims can't use it effectively, just how "important" is rumble? These are some of the most played, highest selling games in the history of gaming running rings around some of the best console titles and yet none of them are eager to have rumble. I guess the PC side of gaming has been missing out on...something.

So what are these games that really need rumble? The only reason to keep rumble in would have been "it is cheap". With Immersion, there is really no surprise it is gone.

On a PC, you really don't see the major benefit of rumble feedback. On a console, rumble feedback seems rather trivial at times too, however rumble feedback used properly in a single-player game can really add to the effect. Sadly, few games use it terribly well.
The key, however, is in multi-player games, and ones that don't utilize split-screen even more-so. Rumble feedback is the ONLY feedback a console can give that is specific to ONE player in an offline multi-player environment.

"The rumble feature in game controllers is a gimmick and always has been a gimmick. It is useless and a waste of battery life. Thank goodness it's being tossed out of most next-gen controller designs."

If by "most next-gen controller designs", you mean "Sony's next-gen controller design", then I guess you're correct. However, both Microsoft and Nintendo are still doing rumble and wireless. Nintendo's even doing the whole "tilt" thing that Sony slapped into their controller at the last minute. So tell me agai

I do agree that it's a gimmick. I used to roll my eyes when people would shove a "rumble pack" into their N64 controllers. That said, it could actually serve as some surprisingly effective tactile feedback in the Wiimote, we'll see, but maybe rumble has finally found its purpose. Unfortunately, the rumble in the Wiimote is extremely basic. Now, 50 years from now, when all controllers have high velocity gyros and can mimick the feel of actually making contact with an object, then we'll talk.

On many games I will agree that the rumble feature is a tacked-on gimmick. Usually, it is a used to physically "punish" the player for receiving damage. However, one well-reviewed game that used rumble effectively as an integral gameplay feature was Rockstar's Table Tennis. There are no visual or audio cues to tell when you are aiming your shot out of bounds. It is done completely with the intensity of the rumble in the gamepad. This is an extremely intuitive use of the rumble feature that allows a minimal