I apologize. I just think that Kanye is half-assing it and that people shouldn't call him a crooner when he can't really sing. You kept insisting that the autotune was an artistic choice even in the light of proof that he couldn't carry a tune. Maybe it's both reasons. Maybe the choice of using the autotune was born out of the fact that he can't sing and as convenience would have it, he wanted to sound like a robot anyway so it worked out for him.

my stance on this album is that i can't stand auto tune... but i am a kanye fan, and college drop out was probably the last rap album that i spent alot of time with and felt like i could gain something from (other than dilla-donuts, but thats different)... with the packaging i was hoping he was gonna make a good version of puffys solo album from last year (two years?).... seemed like a new order nod... i tried listening to it and i can't dig on the auto tune... when i hear that shit, i just wish the person had a fucking vocoder... but that is just me... if he did this record with all vocals through a vocoder, i would probably melt down the vinyl and drink it.... i think that he has jumped the shark... he went from being vulnerable and also being a great rapper... to telling people he is a great rapper and that he is vulnerable....

I've been trying so hard to stay out of this, but this thread is like an accident. I can't seem to look away.

First of all, I can't stand Kanye I've never really been able to tolerate him. He's corny and always has been. I disagree with his fashion statements as well, but none of that is relevent.

I watched the SNL stuff with my wife recently and I listened to the album last night. My opinions on both are unimportant.

The thing that's making me crazy is mostly the bitching about auto tune. Do you really think that dude was trying to use auto tune to correct bad notes in his singing? I find that hard to believe. If he were it would be much more subtle and most of you wouldn't even notice it. It would be like some Taylor Swift shit or something. I don't know. The point is, it wouldn't sound like a robot, you know? I agree with Carney that he should've just used a vocoder. It would've been way cooler, but that isn't the trend right now. The trend is to use auto tune to do that weird robot sound. Why aren't y'all bitching about T-Pain or L'il Wayne? They both use that effect.

I have no real desire to argue about this. As I stated, I can't stand the dude and I'm not fond of the auto tune effect, but there are lot of weird comments being thrown around.

jap city are awesome.

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1.doctor rock gonzo et al...i really don't have the energy for the whole rockist debate..cause i think the effects of anti-rockism sometimes let rock critics set up things on different slant the wrong way too...

but ""A rockist isn't just someone who loves rock 'n' roll, who goes on and on about Bruce Springsteen, who champions ragged-voiced singer-songwriters no one has ever heard of. A rockist is someone who reduces rock 'n' roll to a caricature, then uses that caricature as a weapon. Rockism means idolizing the authentic old legend (or underground hero) while mocking the latest pop star; lionizing punk while barely tolerating disco; loving the live show and hating the music video; extolling the growling performer while hating the lip-syncher. " By KELEFA SANNEH NYTimes October 31, 2004."

but really i like auto-tune so we are gonna go very far.it makes shit sound like robots. futuristic and suchwho is william holiday?

"[Verse - Kanye West]Man I promise, she's so self consciousShe has no idea what she's doing in collegeThat major that she majored in don't make no moneyBut she won't drop out, her parents will look at her funnyNow, tell me that ain't insecurrreThe concept of school seems so securrreSophmore three yearrrs aint picked a careerrrShe like fuck it, I'll just stay down herre and do hairCause that's enough money to buy her a few pairs of new AirsCause her baby daddy don't really careShe's so precious with the peer pressureCouldn't afford a car so she named her daughter Alexus (a Lexus)She had hair so long that it looked like weaveThen she cut it all off now she look like EveAnd she be dealing with some issues that you can't believeSingle black female addicted to retail and well

[Chorus - repeat 2x (w/ Kanye ad-libs)]

[Verse - Kanye West]Man I promise, I'm so self consciousThat's why you always see me with at least one of my watchesRollies and Pasha's done drove me crazyI can't even pronounce nothing, pass that versace!Then I spent 400 bucks on thisJust to be like nigga you ain't up on this!And I can't even go to the grocery storeWithout some ones thats clean and a shirt with a teamIt seems we living the american dreamBut the people highest up got the lowest self esteemThe prettiest people do the ugliest thingsFor the road to riches and diamond ringsWe shine because they hate us, floss cause they degrade usWe trying to buy back our 40 acresAnd for that paper, look how low we a'stoopEven if you in a Benz, you still a nigga in a coop/coupe

[Chorus - repeat 2x (w/ Kanye ad-libs)]

[Verse - Kanye West]I say fuck the police, thats how I treat emWe buy our way out of jail, but we can't buy freedomWe'll buy a lot of clothes when we don't really need emThings we buy to cover up what's insideCause they make us hate ourself and love they wealthThat's why shortys hollering "where the ballas' at?"Drug dealer buy Jordans, crackhead buy crackAnd a white man get paid off of all of thatBut I ain't even gon act holier than thouCause fuck it, I went to Jacob with 25 thouBefore I had a house and I'd do it againCause I wanna be on 106 and Park pushing a BenzI wanna act ballerific like it's all terrificI got a couple past due bills, I won't get specificI got a problem with spending before I get itWe all self conscious I'm just the first to admit it"

. kanye was the first artist on a mainstream level to not draw a line in the sand. where it's either "my fur game is at all time high" or "i'm sick of versace glasses" but explain this materialistic aspect of hip hop culture exists because people are compensating for something..

i remember a q-tip interview i read where he said that alot of nihilism in rap exist because people are getting shot..poverty all that stuffbut hip hop culture didn't allow vulnerability so even though cats are depressed....the only way to channel it is in violence, and anger.

if you recall all the questions about minstrel cultureyou know are black artists are allowed to express themselves as individuals by corperations and white listeners? then "all falls down" is actually a really important song.

if you don't like kanye i feel it. he can be annoying. and the pity party that he throws for himself on this record is kinda hard to stomach...like i mean if you want a sports car, and a kid with a report card you could prolly have them both..

but i really like the album. 1.cause i think it sounds good. 2.its mainstream manifestation of the fact that radiohead and t-pain get alot of burn within the black music community...

And I agree that he was the first rapper in a long time to draw a line the sand, and for a while he straddled that line really, really well. Not only that, but he made really awesome beats, used interesting samples and had a truly innovative sound to go along with everything new he was saying.

But he lost me with the last album, its videos, and his public image as a whole beginning last year. His shit still sounds great, and I am glad you can honestly admit to why you are liking it rather than come up with some other defense - not that there aren't some other valid reasons out there, but I can tell you are being blunt and truthful with yours.

It is really good that Kanye has continued to try and bring in a lot of influences that haven't been fully explored to mainstream rap - whether it be Gary Numan, Radiohead, what have you - and make them palatable for the market. He still straddles that line really well. But I guess I'm disappointed that he's jumped the shark thematically, because I feel like with Rap music the themes you present are just as essential as the sound of the music to the overall feel of what you are doing.

But I've lost touch with a lot of his contemporaries and feel like I'm getting in over my head with this discussion.

In summary, this:

mikecarney wrote:

he went from being vulnerable and also being a great rapper... to telling people he is a great rapper and that he is vulnerable....

Well said Mike. I guess I just at least want people to think about the things they listen to, and understand the products they consume.

It's not so much a "moral rule" as a hope that you at least think about why you like something. It doesn't always have to be justified, it is the action of at least thinking about it that is important.

Why aren't y'all bitching about T-Pain or L'il Wayne? They both use that effect.

Maybe because unlike Kanye, some of us never expected anything good out of T-Pain and L'il Wayne.

and then we were surprised when t-pain and lil wayne became very excellent

Hearing the last L'il Wayne collection of mixtape songs, I was heartbroken to know that his albums will never be that good because he has to produce hits. An artist fettered into mediocrity. Not by lack of talent but by the reality of what sells. He has bills to pay, so I forgive him.

T-Pain? Whatever. That dude has nothing to offer to my ears.

Kanye could have been the Peter Gabriel of the rap game (making popular music that was also interesting), but dropped the ball imho.

From the moment West got on the mic at "SNL," it was clear something wasn't right. Rob Levine, executive editor of Billboard magazine, speculated West's weak voice had to do with a glitch in the autotune feature many artists use to stay on pitch while recording in the studio and rocking out live.

"Autotune allows you to hit every note perfectly. You're not going to be sharp or flat," Levine said. "I think the effect wasn't fully realized, [the autotune] might have been set up wrong. But it's foolish to suggest he was lip-syncing. If he were lip-syncing, it would've sounded exactly the way he wanted it to."

But even if West didn't lip-sync, Tyler Gray, Blender magazine's senior editor, isn't letting him off the hook.

"He was cheating. At the end of the day, did he make up for that lackluster element of his performance with something that balanced it out? I don't really think so. It was neat visuals, but the music wasn't quite up to par," said Gray.

"In the beginning, he got an A for effort because he was trying to break the mold," Gray said, referring to West's branching out from typical hip-hop techniques. "But the effort grade only goes so far. Now he actually has to sound good. And he didn't. He sounded like a bad talent show."

Taylor Swift's Fearless is a good album. Please don't bring her into this discussion. I like what I'm reading.

Am I guilty for liking a few of these songs alot -- even though I hated the last Kanye?

No the last Kanye album is by far his worst record. He basically needed to rush out a dumbed down glossy ish record to seize the time.so it genuis in that aspect. but compared to the amount of effort and time put into late registation by kanye and jon brion, graduation was super half-assed.

but it was crucial with the whole beating 50 cent in sales thing in proving the american public was tired of bullies and excess in the george bush sense.

i almost think the 50 cent-kanye fued was a market screening for bush-obama.

my point. after kanye beat 50 he now had to seize the momentum of himself and wayne dominating the market with being weird by dropping the 4th quarter november after thankgiving record to follow-up graduation..

there was the no time to feed off jon brion like late registration.can't afford to pitch up obvious samples like college drop-out.the half-assing of feeding off of a-trak's awareness of pitchfork ism reach its most successful point with graduation.

d-a-n-c-e

so kanye took a more artistic step forward by trying to make a sad depressing electronic record that could be executed quickly.which is much better than if he would've followed up graduation with another simplfied hop album.

re: Graduation - it had some great beats and production, but the songwriting lacked and some of those samples were predictable/over-used (daft punk song? it's a sample itself (edwin birdsong), so basically it's a double-sample? cheap).

But..."Flashing Lights" ? -- hear how Kells tears it up and makes it his own.

Maybe Kanye just needs to make a star-studded Marly Marl Vol. 1-esque multi-collab-mixtape of whatever tracks he does next?

re: Graduation - it had some great beats and production, but the songwriting lacked and some of those samples were predictable/over-used (daft punk song? it's a sample itself (edwin birdsong), so basically it's a double-sample? cheap).

But..."Flashing Lights" ? -- hear how Kells tears it up and makes it his own.

Maybe Kanye just needs to make a star-studded Marly Marl Vol. 1-esque multi-collab-mixtape of whatever tracks he does next?

i liked him using the daft punk sample.you're right its double sample. ...a straight-up puff daddy move. so people calling kanye a sell-out for an autotune record are confused.

i guess college drop-out might have been marley marl in control meets the chronic.

i think as long as kanye is one of the three people who still sell records i doubt he will be spending enough time in the lab to pull off chronic 2001.they will be forcing his records out every 8 months.unless he finds his eminem or 50 cent to help him control the market without having to be the star which he won't cause he likes rapping too much.

he prolly will just feed off of kid cudi, 88 keys and whoever a-trak is hanging out with for awhile.

i wanna hear less of this FORCED MULTICULTURISM shit & more japcity. america is GOD's country & the company i work for wont even throw a "holiday party". i am another casualty in the war on christmas. seriously, just drag my corpse through the short north