Doesn't matter a hard stance needs to be taken when it comes to cheating. Just because they beat them with or without him doesn't mean anything he played in the finals and contributed to them winning as well as their run to the finals. It's not fair to the rest of the team but it's really not fair to the other teams that he "may" have hacked against either ....

Should of been more clear wonko sorry. If indeed something happens in regards to this nonsense the finals should and will be replayed since that's the only game he participated in. This is all hypothetical though, and doubt we'll even need to venture down this path.

just saw the demo. it "looks" like wallhacks but based on his positioning it also "looks" like he couldve already had prior knowledge that the guy was on the ledge. hard to tell without the full demo tbh. damn u ppl posting these 30 second wallhack clips as proof

not denying that part is a bit fishy / weird but i wouldnt jump to conclusions just yet without seeing the full demo. honestly, sometimes what appears on your screen is different than how it looks on someone else's cfg when they demo you. he couldve saw part of the model's head (if it stuck out far enough) and out of reflex prolly shot at it.

edit: actually yeah if you pause at around 0:20 and zoom in you can see part of the model's head, depending on avenged's cfg he prolly saw it more clearly than the guy whos demoing. or he could be wallhacking, lol donno.

Although to that point! Interestingly enough the QL models are slightly taller than they are in Q3, so if wolfcam hasn't implemented our model scaling code (which I don't believe they have), then his head would have been slightly more visible than is shown in this video.

I still doubt the shot was taken based off of sight though. If he wasn't wallhacking, then he fired over there as a prediction/spam rail or because he had general knowledge of their position.

"If he wasn't wallhacking, then he fired over there as a prediction/spam rail or because he had general knowledge of their position."
yeah, i do like 10 prediction rails in a every game... often even , then I move my mouse to keyboard side, mouse1 hits it and I shoot accidentally and it may look, that I shoot through walls..

it's not 100%, but im far more inclined to believe that this is a wh. the rail is far too within the cement to pass it off as merely a missed shot and you can very barely see the top of the players head. he reacts far too quickly imo given how hard it is to see the opponents head.

too quickly? you can see the top of the head for a few seconds. its a regular way of making a shot, you put a crosshair on a certain place and then just shoot when reacting to an enemy. only question is why would anyone place a crosshair there. are you one of those guys who thinks wallhack removes walls?! :D

on a certain place = in the middle of a wall, wtf? yes, i do that shot a lot actually, but i always aim above the wall for some obscure reason :S besides, there was no enemy movement or sound that could have made him predict the enemy being there, at&#314;east not in that vid.

Maybe because he didn't realize the guy was BEHIND the wall? Your question is why he placed the crosshair there and fired after ridiculing people calling this an obvious wh gaff. What he did made zero sense unless he could see the guy and didn't realize he was on the other side of the archway wall. You even admit it makes zero sense. Think about what you say. The only way your argument makes sense is that you think Avenged ISNT wallhacking, but HE thinks he can shoot through walls. 30 seconds of thought would suggest he could see the guy and didn't realize which side of the archway he was on when he fired. WH gaff.

That aside. You can see the head peaking out, and it could have been a throwaway shot on avenged's part thinking guy was about to cross through archway. Instead guy tucked himself into archway wall (who does that?!) and Avenged's throwaway rail meant to hit someone crossing through archway also directly lines up with someone tucked against archway on opposite side.

I'm leaning towards WH gaff just in the way he was really trying to force that rail with really poor positioning at bottom pillar rather than move to a better location, but video doesn't really prove he wasn't just trying to make a sweet sneaky shot. For all we know, guy was camping rg crosswalk whole game and Avenged was pretty assured of being able to take a shot like that from pillars.

Either he walled and didn't realize the guy was on the other side of the wall. OR, because the angle is so tight, he fired a prediction rail meant to hit someone coming through archway and just happened to coincide with guy hiding BEHIND archway.

this should not be allowed to be posted though, a single rail shot? which isn't even a 100% wallhack shot, the place he's aiming at as well is just so standard to expect people being there. Unless u get like 5-10 clear cheat moment in a single game you can prove someone is cheating.

are you really that dumb? I'm supposed to believe that Avenged, who has 'established' himself as one of the stronger rail heavy players in the US now, can't even line his 'prediction' rails above a stationary wall? On a shot that is so standard?

If you are camping that specific rail angle the least you can do is give the shot a chance by aiming in a spot that isn't directly in to the side of a wall. Nothing about Avenged's mouse movement or movement in general leads me to believe he is very good. This is just an example of where his shittyness shines through in a way that confirms the hackusations. Probably finished with above 60% rail in this game too.

1.) the mouse movement @ bottom pillars in a circle motion towards RL ledge, its how you would move your mouse to view models through walls. you would NEVER move your mouse like that w/walls lol

2.) his rail shot at the ledge is horrible aim if you think about it, but also at the same time hits in what would have been the dead center of that body. avenged has enough natural good aim to NOT miss like that hehe

you have to admit that is is definitely suspect, even damning. Look at where he aims. I'm more aim than anything and I wouldn't have aimed there considering I knew where he was. Avenged aimed right for the body. That makes no sense.

what does it prove tho? honestly if u look at any good player nowadays, someone who plays significant hours, im pretty sure u can go look at all his demos and come up with a few of these lol moments where u go - erm what just happened and how'd he know???

my point isnt that the clip is valueless. my point is that if you are going to accuse someone of hacking then dont do so publicly without damning evidence. evidence thats unambiguous, in other words very very obvious case of hacking for a sustained period of gameplay. OR if you are going to post clips like these then there needs to be more of them with timelines, to show that he's hitting suspect shots a lot more frequently than normal good players do.

- The enemy's head is slightly visible
- r_subdivisions may be set to 4 instead of 80 - on some corners you can see more with it at 80 then at 4
- Occasionally when I used to play, I'd get caught up in the moment and spam a rail when I meant to spam a rocket instead but forgot to switch

i could probably look through a few demos and find quite a few shots of me shooting at walls. possibly where enemies are actually standing too, this isn't evidence at all especially without a full demo

Considering avenged isnt completely retarded. I doubt he (or anyone good) would make it obvious. Even when xhilerate was walling his balls off capping flags just 'magically' dodging enemys people were still trying to defend him.....

wonko says this is getting out of hand. what do you expect people to do at this point (the answer is give up trying to prove anything and either have fun playing with all the scrub cheaters or stop playing)? Unless you collect a ton of demos and spend a shitload of time packaging the clips elegantly like the csi:ql people did people are just too stupid to be able to see the difference between high level players and fakers.

If you went in to spec knowing that avenged cheats and looking for plays that are as conclusive as possible...would this instance not be just about as 'conclusive' as you can get? The only difference between this clip and what is found in csi:ql stuff is they spend the time finding like 8 of these instances before releasing.

If you expect a player of avenged's skill (LOL) to make many bigger mistakes than this shot here...lol. goodluck!

why'd u put conclusive in quotes? could it possibly be because it isnt conclusive at all. and no it isnt as conclusive as it can get. if it was there would be no arguments in this thread. obvious hacks is obvious. and when it isnt, well then it isnt. :)

what do i expect people to do? u have a variety of choices. if u really care about it that much then u should gather enough evidence before posting shit so people might actually be convinced. if u do enough then id will either ban the player or at the very least he might be pushed out of the community. if u cant do that then u have the simple choice of never playing with the supposed cheater ever. nothing stops you from doing that.

Because the fact that certain shots/sequences can be conclusive to a player like zero4 and yet not stand out to the typical mid-level quake player (syncerror and 90% of esr users) makes 'conclusive' completely subjective and worthless.

Hacks are simply too advanced to need evidence that 100% of the shitty population can see. There are literally only maybe 10ish people in the entire world that I would trust to truly be able to make a 'conclusive' ruling on cheats at the highest level of quake.

Zero4, Fox, Draven, etc. Even as 'experts' on the matter they wouldn't be able to make every idiot understand. Thus...'conclusive'.

Where I haven't been clear is that I don't think this one shot is enough to ban avenged or anything like that. In order to convince the general playerbase and syncerror (and thus becoming bannable) someone would need to combine the stuff that adrenaline, brick, and others have already shown on avenged and put it into a csi:ql format.

My point is that knowing all of the back-story, having played against avenged many times, and having seen him play plenty of times over the course of a year or two...this is a conclusive shot for me. That's it.

Maybe a better way of responding to your question is if I told Fox that this is the POV of a pro-level ctf player he would almost assuredly agree that the shot taken is MORE LIKELY to come from a wallhacker than not. In this sense it is conclusively a hacky looking shot that makes far more sense if he is wallhacking than if he isn't (even if it is only one rail).

I care enough to make a few posts on a forum voicing my opinion on the subject. If I had a lot of experience turning demos in to avis and was constantly playing online tournaments against avenged for $ then perhaps I would jump at the chance to try to 'catch' him and anyone else, but this isn't the case so the most I can offer is a little typing.

It's amazing how certain people (especially in NA) will bend over backwards to NOT find cheats if the suspected player is liked or "well-known." Had this been a player who was somewhat of a troll/annoying, everyone would say that this video is 100% conclusive.

Does anyone even know anything about this guy, other than the fact that he plays CTF pubs/pickups or he's your clan's butt-buddy? Does this guy even have any accomplishments other than shitty online tourneys or pickups? Probably not. Therefore, no hax of course, despite highly suspicious evidence. *rollseyes*

In avengeds case - yes that was a terrible miss. He rarely does that. Could be one of those times though. I'm not saying he is cheating - it just looks funny. I've played with him in pugs and never really saw anything too BS - ven0m on the other hand.

Exactly what others have posted, I know I have done things that would look very suspect. Ive shot walls and shit plenty of time trying to do a flick or whatever in the heat of the moment.

I bet I can give lots of ctf demos, and they be like "oh look he walls", but little did you know, we are on mumble calling out positions, so I know someone is coming or might be around the corner even though I never saw them.

Like Wonko said, to accuse and ban someone for hacking, you better have a hell lot more evidence than this. This clips shows nothing and I can almost guarantee if I went back through my demos I have done a similar shot

I swear, people saying "oh well why did he soot low at the wall and not higher, it makes no sense". Well sheesh, what are you a marksman. If everyone was able to aim right where they wanted, all the time, it could be said, but umm, no.

Perfect example of what I was trying to explain in my previous wonko reply. Slice is a good player in his own right, but I wouldn't want him trying to judge any hackish plays because the only thing he is going to be able to point out definitively is players that look like Xaero on nightmare.

"Well sheesh, what are you a marksman."

LOL. YES! Avenged wants you to believe he is a marksman. That he is one of the best rail players in the US. That he is one of the best ctf players in the US.

You show me that same shot from joe-blow first-time quakelive player and it means nothing. You expect them to spam shots anywhere and everywhere.

You show that shot from a supposed great railer and it suddenly makes no sense. How could someone that consistently rails the shit out of everyone at the highest level suddenly take a shot that makes NO SENSE. You either spam that shot above the ledge when you can't see anyone (prediction) or you slightly miss the target when you CAN see them (low/high/left/right..doesn't matter if you can see them). This shot did not look like he missed...it looks like he hit exactly where he aimed (straight through the wall directly at the hidden target).

i dont think anyone is arguing that the shot looked weird. but what u dont seem to get is that by itself it isnt enough. not even close. theres too many variables that go into aiming. and theyre not even constant with a single player. did it make sense that he had his mouse pointed at the wall instead of at the spot where the enemy would appear? fuck no. even if he saw the enemy's head it still makes no sense that he would move his mouse in a way that misses going above the ledge rather than below. but from that angle the difference is minute. but ur assuming that he was deliberately aiming at that point. maybe his mouse was in a weird position on the pad and that affected the up/down movement of the mouse and that ended up with him undershooting or whatever u call it.

the thing is that theres a lot of factors that go into this. people aim very very differently. to say that based on a 5 sec game clip u can anticipate every single thing that was going on with the player at the time is i think folly.

and just to make it clear. i dont like avenged. i dont like most of the 8x guys. and the ql community is full of people who very strangely went from mediocre to super high aim skills in a relatively short period of time. the difference between me and you is that i dont feel the need to call people hackers without good evidence.

ps: let me ask another question. you seem to be familiar with the scene. you know that the north american community is rife with these hack accusations and has been for a while. ever since 8x went through that period where they were challenging the top ctf teams, people have been skeptical of them. given all that why dont we ask this question - is this the best we can come up with against these players? if thats the case what conclusion do we draw? that theyre simply too smart to be caught or that theyre legit and everyones too paranoid?

" is this the best we can come up with against these players? if thats the case what conclusion do we draw? that theyre simply too smart to be caught or that theyre legit and everyones too paranoid?"

Yes, this is the best we can come up with against these players. If you give hacks to moderately good players they become great players. Especially any of the players that you could argue are 'pro' level to start with. They aren't going to make huge mistakes. Examples like the ones that are shown in this thread are as clear as you will usually find unless the player is boosting their mg/lg to levels that are super blatant (mg/lg stand out more because people generally suck with these weapons on avg and there is more style/control needed).

Then again you have players like instin who have such great overall mouse control that they can make lg look great even at 40-50%. In his case the best evidence used against him was the ca1 scenario where he instantly switched from target to target melting everyone. Was enough to convince most but not all.

The fact is that anyone who wants to toggle a few rails can more easily do so now than ever before and it is near impossible to prove on a top level player. These few instances are all there is and why its almost impossible without an insane effort to prove shit.

"that theyre simply too smart to be caught or that theyre legit and everyones too paranoid?"

It is actually that they are too legit to be caught - the only people being caught are idiots that can't strafe jump who are rushing straight to the 50+% shit Or if they can strafe jump then maybe you need 70%+.

If seemingly logical thinkers like you aren't willing to make any close judgement calls on these type of players then it is safe to say that few below you will either.

At the highest level of quake hacking this whole topic boils down to 1 player from each side of the pond, lol. You either think kgb and juvenile are legit online or you don't. If you are wishy-washy on either of those two I can safely say you will not be able to make the call on many cheaters below them.

I said before I did not think much of Avenged... I am going to have to take that comment back. I was speccing him a few matches and he was freakin' raging faces. I tried to determine if he was hacking/walling, I watched VERY closely during and in wolfcam afterwards. I got 0% proof... I personally think him and fear are legit as can be. This kind of shooting at the wall thing happens a lot. (Although shooting center model is a hair fishy and I can see how it would cause suspicion)

Avenged raging facing? demos or it didn't happen. Hack or not he's a shitty. The only thing he does well is on his flag runs where he seems to know where everyone is and some how avoids the the other team and it's not due to his quick thinking or great movement he has neither it's luck or a wh.

eh its pretty much like the previously posted demo, suspicious but thats all. and the terrible quality just makes it worse to find anything conclusive within it. can you repost that w/ wolfcam and cg_wh 1? its hard to make out anything using r_shownormals with all of the fuzzy white lines everywhere tbh

not saying he hacks or not, its just a small clip with the tankjr model im pretty sure he could most likely see his shoulder or something around the wall but who knows, i was asked to post this so i did

Good videos but I wish people would post some of his CTF demos where he is clearly walling on his flag runs. The OPs 30sec clip of him means little sure it looks like a WH but it could have been a spam rail or just a miss click it happens.

Not exactly sure about why but people keep repeating it, notably when talking about shoot-through seen in demos. It probably has to do with the fact that the client doesn't necessarily receives all the packets in due time and has to interpolate the model's position with what he knows of their past movement. A demo must record the information received, not the positions guessed. So when viewing a demo, even if a late packet wasn't recorded, the interpolation is probably done using the packets received after for a better precision of what really happened.

Here's a little example to illustrate what I think happens. f() appears when a packet wasn't received in time (or at all).
What the server sends :
A->B->C->D->E->F->G->H...
While playing :
A->B->C->D->f(B,C,D)->F->G->H...
While viewing the demo, if the packet was received too late but still recorded:
A->B->C->D->E->F->G->H...
While viewing the demo, if the packet wasn't received at all :
A->B->C->D->f(C,D,F,G)->F->G->H...

That's a theory, of course. I should dive into Q3's code to know how it's really handled...

Anyway, the point is that you should not use a demo on such a small scale of time to know if he had the time or not to react.

Interpolation happens yes, due to anti-lag mechanism. But it doesn't affect in the way you are describing.

Let say this demo was recorded by a spectator. He should be seeing and receiving the world view as the player he is following during the demo recording, the exact (X,Y,Z) position of the player at each frame and the angle (X,Y,Z) he was facing at. When viewing back the demo, the viewer might see some hits are registered while the target has already moved.
But in no logical sense is someone suddenly shooting at a wall because of "interpolation" or "lag".

As for the name showing up through wall argument:
It was clear by the movement of his cross-hair that he was already moving his cross-hair toward the target (to the left) prior the player or player name showing up. This strongly hint at exactly knowledge of where the target was (wall-hack).
The only counter argument I can think of is that he was trying to pre-fire that angle (there was a faint audio cue on the video) but aimed to far left instead and hit the wall instead of shooting past it. But this seems unlikely for someone that is good at aiming and given the circumstances.

We're having a polite discussion between adults over here. Why don't you go play in your sandbox, brah?

On a side note : thanks for the answers, guys. But aren't there other factors in top of that? I'm still wondering because of the "you cannot judge a shoot-through with a demo" thing. Well... maybe in shoot-through cases the position difference between what is seen and what really is much smaller than what it needs to be to explain the Avenged reaction time case.

Avenged does hack. He's been calling me out as a hacker every time we play, so he started to cheat to get that 'edge' like the rest of good ppl in NA. But sadly we are not cheating, hes just fucking bad. LOL

lmao at another fake player banned from playing ql....
haha. This community is nuts.

But you did hit the nail on the nose as to why the majority of people hack, as I'm sure you do yourself. Just going off your post haha. They basically convince themselves everyone else hacks...so they want to stay competitive.

Having no anti cheat, whether it works perfectly or not, and allowing people to make anonymous alts.... just increases the paranoia and encourages dishonest play.

guys like lorfa will try to convince you of the opposite. That putting laws and regulations in place encourages people to try and break and manipulate them. Or that people would quit the game. But thats proved false logic by other more popular professionaly played games and society itself....lmao

lol @ that slow motion....he did not hear that guy from that far with only a rocket launcher out.. PLUS, you don't see anything before he shoots and when he does only then does 'ziel' pop up with a tiny clip of green

haha this is the other part of the problem. There are only a few people in the community with enough power to change people's opinions on hacking matters and many times even when a pro player like chance makes a judgement call by himself it isn't enough (chance on walter, clampok on kgb, etc).

You would need like all of rapha, z4, dahang, chance, viju, etc, etc to publicly make a ruling on a player in order to get anything done - and they have like zero incentive to publicly make those kind of judgement calls because 1) They are good enough that they can still beat someone as blatant as kgb in duel online (thank god for skill games like quake) and 2) They make their money on lan where he isn't a threat anyway.

Maybe if there were 10k online team tournaments they would not just privately make the judgement between eachother, but would have reason to try to convince others. Anywaysssssss...

If I thought that logging in would give my words more power then I would definitely search for my credentials and do so. I have already put my name on my take on the situation in a previous thread to mixed results and so it really makes no difference.

The only thing it would accomplish is making future games with these players more awkward online (cuz bans aren't coming), and even if I don't think they are very great or legit I don't dislike them. Without a few togglers currently there is no 'pro' pickup scene anyway. We need them as bad as they need cheats :P

In OP's video:
I imagine most CA players would check every entrance to their area ANYWAY just to make sure they aren't ganked by anyone. Making prefire shots at entrances (regardless of whether they know someone is there) is a great way of scaring people into having them think that they know you see them (even if you don't.)

Now, that being said. Why he aimed dead center of the players in each of those videos, doesn't make any sense. Sure, I can see it being an accident if you just have one recording of it, but if you have two recordings of it, same scenario, then it's something to watch for. You simply do not aim at a wall when there is someone BEHIND IT, unless your wallhacks are playing tricks on you...

LOL, I am not ray. I am giving an explanation for what happened. It is pretty suspect, but you can actually look at it two ways. Avenged's poor positioning trying to force a rail on bridge archway and then hitting a guy dead-center behind a wall. Alarming. BUT, that guy could have been perching up there whole game. Now what Avenged is doing doesnt seem that weird. He knows guy is up there, see's a head-peak and thinks he is crossing through archway. He prediction rails at archway but guy has tucked himself against the opposite side of the archway instead of crossing through. Same line.. Who even does that? Guy did something that made zero sense, and gives him zero scope. It is pretty explicit that a prediction rail at that tight angle for a guy crossing RG archway coincides with a guy for no reason tucking himself against RG archway.

I just had a great idea for a new quakelive gametype. Ok, so there is no questioning that using hacks is the fastest way to expedite the learning process in quakelive - learning new maps is logically much easier to do with wallhacks than without, aim-assist makes sense for making the player do the majority of the aiming with a little boost, and having timers for all the items is obviously beneficial to a new player learning the gameflow and mental math piece of the game.

What you do is you breed the new generation of quake players by giving them access to god-mode in the early stages. Fun for everyone immediately rather than just those that have already put in a lot of time.

You have two sets of servers -- Assist and Pro or something. Its perfect...other than the QL anti-cheat for the Pro servers of course. You can just trust me to make those tough judgement calls though so no worries :P

one thing people have neglected to mention to this point, I think, is that he definitely wasn't just spamming; he knew there was an enemy standing there, because you can see he ducked out of view immediately after firing, to avoid taking reaction damage.

and actually, in addition to my last anon post (I am "tyryl," not "raythenoob" or whatever, not that other anon), you can see that he does a little sidestep into cover _before_ the model head pops into view, too, which seems like a reaction.

Ironically, I can't figure out ESR nesting, perhaps cause noscript is f'ing it up. I thought you were responding to me, but apparently you were responding to someone else. But, I guess we are both ray...