Sunday, December 13, 2009

38 comments:

Sorry to hear it, but can't say I blame you. I don't really get where the animosity is coming from. Disagreement, I can see. Angry disagreement, even. But the "troll" accusations are just bizarre, IMO.

I don't have a problem with you, for whatever that's worth. And I know I'm not alone in that.

Thanks - means a good bit to me - both you and Marcellina. It's not the toy-poodle level attacks, but the political desire to fail was making me too angry. Something Phila said about people gloating when things go wrong was dead on. It's been interesting, but it finally got to me - that and Atrios quoting Politico.

Actually, I didn't see it, so I didn't know about it. Which is kind of a different matter.

Regardless, if I expanded my definition of trolling to include the kind of stuff you're complaining about, I'd have to write off a lot more people than rootless...including myself, most likely.

Last time I checked, there are some regular non-trolls on Eschaton who repeat themselves ad infinitum, spam threads with witless slogans, attack people of good will over minor disagreements, and act like cloth-eared assholes when their views are challenged.

In other words, it's not a matter of patting rootless on the back so much as questioning whether the behavior in question is egregiously worse or more disruptive than you, for instance, might tolerate from someone on your "side."

I don't think it is, personally. YMMV.

Hardly matters, though. I'm basically at the end of my rope with the place anyway, and am happy to let all y'all sort it out as it you see fit.

I *did* see this supposed *slight*, and I cannot fathom how differently people interpret what went down. An accusation of dishonesty was met with "fuck off", and so what?

Isn't it ironic that in the end, the real damage by the actual trolls was to get atriots to fling the label at each other. It's a fucking political blog, not a high school clique. If you insist on making it one, then, well, best of luck to you.

marcellina - i didn't mean to criticize you at all - i really don't like the kind of attacks that people were making on rootless, and, frankly, i resent adam making them here. sorry, adam, but that's the way i feel

this is what i have been saying to people lately:

it is really curious that both the left and right blogosphere have essentially the same objective at the moment - to kill the health care bill and discourage people from voting for democrats. i don't really give a flying fuck for the hypothetically left wing justifications that people on kos and eschaton use for promoting exactly what rush limbaugh wants

it is really curious that both the left and right blogosphere have essentially the same objective at the moment - to kill the health care bill and discourage people from voting for democrats.

Someone yesterday spoke of "buyer's remorse," which is an odd way to put it, given that there's so much more than individual feelings at stake. Especially when you consider what's happening in the rest of the world.

What really bothers me, though, is that weird sort of in-your-face, triumphalist despair that passes for radicalism among American liberals.

There's also the effort expended to stamp out whatever dim sparks of optimism might remain. And the way people sneer when someone points out that we don't actually have a final bill to kill. And whatever form of apparently contagious ADD allows people to act as though this president and this Congress have done absolutely nothing of any value for anyone, anywhere, ever.

But mostly, it's just the endless fucking teeth-baring and shit-flinging. If I were in a better frame of mind, maybe I could take it. But as I'm not....

It's all of those things, and more, Phila. There's also the passive-aggression, the snottiness, the near-constant sneering, the mindless screaming (e.g., "FUCK RAHM! FUCK! HIM! RAHM FUCK!"), the eighth-grade "You can't play on my team"-ism, the "I told you so"-ers, the defeatists, the general rudeness.

One thing I don't get is why the people who are annoyed don't take advantage of the many remedies available to them, e.g., Killfile, Bensonmum, ignoring, or leaving. Being too lazy to install either of the first two options, I opted first for the third, and now for the fourth.

One thing I don't get is why the people who are annoyed don't take advantage of the many remedies available to them, e.g., Killfile, Bensonmum, ignoring, or leaving. Being too lazy to install either of the first two options, I opted first for the third, and now for the fourth.

I don't think KF or BM would've worked for me, because a lot of this stuff evolved gradually and the people who tended to indulge in it were occasionally valuable contributors.

By the time I started to find the whole thing intolerable, it was well past the point of ignoring...not least 'cause too many people were getting sucked in.

I also got a little freaked when I started seeing phrases and words like "left of the left" and "traitor" being tossed around. This is the way Republicans (and Jacobins and any number of other fanatical groups) talk. It gave me the willies.

I also got a little freaked when I started seeing phrases and words like "left of the left" and "traitor" being tossed around. This is the way Republicans (and Jacobins and any number of other fanatical groups) talk. It gave me the willies.

The last thing I saw was someone arguing for making donations to the GOP to help derail HCR.

I was talking about this with someone else recently... I see a few people there fighting the good fight, and a lot of just plain folk who enjoy the company of kindred spirits (like me). But watching people get bullied was too much. And it's so easy to bully others on the internet.And the odd thing was that it started in earnest *after* Bensonmum, as if there was a need to provoke and persecute *somebody* in the absence of trolls. Huh. Just like lashing out at Bush for years, then at Obama in exactly the same brutal way. War mentality.

In the first place, I think this stuff has actual political consequences that affect me and my loved ones. And it's a perfect example of the problems I've had with the American left for decades.

In the second place, I have a limited amount of leisure time and lots of very absorbing things going on in my life right now. Why should I waste my time or emotions on stuff that, at this point, mostly just annoys and depresses me? Why would I let it take time away from the people I love? Or from my goddamn kitten, for that matter?

Besides, if the conversations and collaborations and arguments and networking over there contribute nothing to the political process, then that's all the more reason not to spend my time hanging around there getting angry and depressed.

It's not a huge deal, really. I'm feeling slightly bitter about it, I admit, but it'll pass, like everything else.

And the odd thing was that it started in earnest *after* Bensonmum, as if there was a need to provoke and persecute *somebody* in the absence of trolls. Huh. Just like lashing out at Bush for years, then at Obama in exactly the same brutal way. War mentality.

I think there's some truth to that, absolutely. But IMO the larger problems have to do with learned helplessness, and an almost total rejection of solidarity that stems at least partially from internalizing the self-involved ideology of our opponents.

Then again, I have a history of being a pompous blowhard who overanalyzes things, so I may be completely full of shit.

For me, there are two things that are making the eschaton an aversive experience at the moment, although i think only one of them is a serious political issue

that issue is what i was talking about before: destructive, republican friendly aims "justified" with left wing rhetoric. somewhere karl rove is laughing at us. i can only hope that the influence of this on public policy is limited

(parenthetically, personally i would never use any comment hiding technology, exactly because other points of view are one of the things that i am most interested in. lubyanka pisses me off and raises my blood pressure, but what he says constitutes information that is useful about the arguments of the right)

but also, as everybody has been talking about, there is the 7th grade mentality that has taken over. with the issues of hillary vs obama a year and a half ago, and "kill the bill" right now, a vicious swarm arises to stamp out deviations from the party line

I think there's some truth to that, absolutely. But IMO the larger problems have to do with learned helplessness, and an almost total rejection of solidarity that stems at least partially from internalizing the self-involved ideology of our opponents.

For sure. But the icky group dynamics takes place within a more general setting where every nasty "frame" the RW uses for liberals is embraced heartily on a large number of supposedly liberal sites. The idea that "liberals" are weak and treacherous and "girly" and compare poorly to the masculine power of the Republicans is accepted by a lot of people who think of themselves as "progressive". Even worse, if you take a common attack like "Obama is weak and cowardly and controlled by Rahm" and fill in the ethnic identities that everyone is very well aware of, you get something that could be from RedState or Stormfront for that matter.

To me, people who can write stuff like "Reid is on his knees as the democrats bend over and so fuck them with a rusty chainsaw" is pretty transparently waving the "I'm a gamma" flag to the other monkeys and not happy about it.

The idea that "liberals" are weak and treacherous and "girly" and compare poorly to the masculine power of the Republicans is accepted by a lot of people who think of themselves as "progressive". Even worse, if you take a common attack like "Obama is weak and cowardly and controlled by Rahm" and fill in the ethnic identities that everyone is very well aware of, you get something that could be from RedState or Stormfront for that matter.

FUCK YOU, TROLL!!!!11

Kidding aside...I see your point, but to be fair, Dems do sometimes do things that can be described as weak and treacherous, and you can't expect people not to point that out when it happens. I don't blame people for being frustrated and furious; I feel the same way, a lot of the time. So I'm not as concerned about that tendency as I am about what passes for solutions, a lot of which strike me as petulant at best and counterproductive at worst.

Well, that and the refusal to acknowledge the actual structure of the system in which this struggle takes place. A lot of people seem to think there's some kind of level playing-field here (e.g., "the GOP does X, Y, and Z, so why don't the Dems?"). I don't really understand that outlook.

Dems do sometimes do things that can be described as weak and treacherous, and you can't expect people not to point that out when it happens.

You have a point and people are going to be more angry at those who they think should be on their side. But I think the emotional language goes together with the unwillingness to look at structural causes. It's not because finance dominates capital, it's because Timmey bends over for bankster cock or something. That language reframes the issue as one of "our side is the weak low status side" from "we need to assert our rights".

The current situation is making me think of all those essays on national liberation like Fanon.

It's easy to underestimate the comprehensive evil of the Republican/Conservative project and its poisonous effect on all life on the planet and on the psyche of Americans who live near the moral black hole itself.

It's easy to underestimate the comprehensive evil of the Republican/Conservative project and its poisonous effect on all life on the planet and on the psyche of Americans who live near the moral black hole itself.

No kidding. In the past few years, it's happened several times that what seemed to me to be a "normal" reaction to some threat or opportunity in my life turned out, on closer examination, to be a product of internalized RW/glibertarian horseshit. Which is really annoying.

once a long time ago when i was in AA i sat down to do my 5th step with my sponsor. he was a post grad. at fordham in philosophy. as is usual in these circumstances i started in with mea culpa, and then the explanations.

he stopped me right away "ah, charley, it really doesn't matter what you think."

heh. this thread is funny. you all know everyone at the Crack Den loves and misses you all, and all those who don't come by often anymore. really, despite the sniping.

i've quit other blogs before, and i understand why people do it. there are many good reasons to do so. but as someone upthread said, dood: it's just a blog. i am deeply hated by not a few regulars there, and my attitude is, "get in line." pixels on a screen don't hurt me. or you, or anyone. or at least, i don't think they should.

rootless is a good person, and i understand why s/he made the choice to drop out. at the same time, i don't understand the exodus. or rather, the new commenting system really sux and i've told Atrios it's going to kill his blog if he doesn't get a different one, but leaving because the commenting community is "too negative" or because some people are regularly attacked and/or in the minority? dood, i thought that was the whole purpose of commenting: to disagree. maybe i just had that wrong.

anyway, hello, all you ex pats. hope your holidays went well and all that good stuff. come on by, the water's still warm.

I've seen some really odd claims made about this thread. For the record:

1. This isn't some kind of anti-Eschatonian blog for disgruntled ex-commenters.

2. No one "drove me away" from Eschaton. No one personally attacked me or insulted me or hurt my widdle feelings.

3. I don't have a problem with Adam or any other regular at Eschaton, any more than I had a problem with rootless. Which is to say that while I might not always agree with them, or their tactics, I wouldn't ever make it my personal mission to shut them up or ostracize them.

4. Arguing that someone is not a troll does not mean you endorse everything that person says or does.

5. Walking away from a situation that irritates you doesn't necessarily mean that you take things too seriously. It may simply mean that you have a reasonable grasp of what you can change, and what you can't.

6. Trolls who are attempting to use this discussion to cause further disruption at Eschaton should be boiled alive in rancid yak fat.

The thing is, no one has "sniped" at me. I have no complaint with how I personally have been treated on Eschaton. People are nice to me, by and large. Nicer than I deserve, probably, considering that I'm a prickly oddball and a blowhard.

For me a lot of this stuff comes down to how I feel about the sensibility and effectiveness of "the left." Right now, I don't feel very good about it at all, and Eschaton has been exacerbating that feeling. Simple as that, really.

it's just a blog.

Yes, it is. And it seems like I'm not the only one who needs to be reminded of that.

pixels on a screen don't hurt me. or you, or anyone. or at least, i don't think they should.

Well, in the first place, we're not talking about "pixels on a screen." We're talking about what those pixels do or don't communicate when they take the form of language. Which isn't quite as trivial as your metaphor makes it sound.

Beyond that, the idea that this has to do with feeling "hurt" is totally off base, at least in my case.

You could look at it this way: I spent the eighties having my ears blasted out at punk/experimental music shows. It was a good time, and worthwhile in any number of ways. But do I want to do it now? Not really. And it's not because I feel "hurt," or because everyone involved with it sucks, but because sometimes you feel like you need to move on. Or get some distance. Or investigate some other ways of doing or expressing things.

That's not exactly how I feel in this situation, but it's a lot closer than what some people seem to be suggesting.

leaving because the commenting community is "too negative"

Pretending for a moment that this is actually my complaint, why would this be a bad decision? Hell, I can easily imagine situations where avoiding something that's "too negative" would be a simple matter of self-preservation.

As it happens, though, I don't think it's "too negative." I think it's become frustrating and counterproductive, at least for me. And occasionally -- but still too often -- it's dumb and mean in a way that reminds me of a (boys') high school locker room.

But of course, this thread isn't the Final Word on Eschaton and all who sail with her. It's how a handful of people felt at a specific time, for various personal reasons. And if people want to make a bigger deal of that than it is, then maybe they're the ones who need to remember that it's "just a blog."

I don't really care if people think I'm a fuckhead or a drama queen or what have you, as long as they don't use that brush to tar people like Res and AndyG, who've never done anything to deserve it as far as I can recall.

dood, i thought that was the whole purpose of commenting: to disagree.

We've been interacting with each other for a pretty long while, ChiDyke. Do you honestly believe my problem is that people are disagreeing with each other?