Musings on politics, science, religion, music, and life.

October 08, 2009

This past Saturday and Sunday, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints held its 179th Semi-Annual General Conference, at which Latter-day Saints (Mormons) gathered to hear sermons from their ecclesiastical leaders. At the afternoon session held on Sunday October 4, 2009, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles delivered a 16-minute address that quickly became the talk of the 10-hour-long conference. The text of all General Conference addresses are available at the LDS church's web site. The text of Elder Holland's address can be found here. The church web site also makes the talks available in audio and video formats. After the jump, I embed the talk as it appears on YouTube, in two parts, and then provide my commentary on it. In sum, Elder Holland's talk is rife with lies and logical fallacies, and relies on emotional and psychological manipulation rather than rational argument to affect his audience.

January 14, 2009

The LDS church teaches that people like me, i.e., former members of the church, are destined to be miserable, and that we are in the clutches of Satan. We are as Judas--traitors who would kill Christ if we could. This sounds harsh, and indeed it is. It sounds like one of those old 19th-century teachings (like blood atonement) that the church has swept under the rug. But, alas, this is one of the old teachings that is still alive and kicking in the modern church. In the current manual Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, published at the direction of the First Presidency (and the only extra-scriptural material permitted to be used by Priesthood and Relief Society teachers in the church) is found lesson number 27, titled "Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy." From that lesson comes this quote, which is representative of the tenor and thrust of the entire lesson:

[A]postates after turning from the faith of Christ, unless they have speedily repented, have sooner or later fallen into the snares of the wicked one, and have been left destitute of the Spirit of God, to manifest their wickedness in the eyes of multitudes. From apostates the faithful have received the severest persecutions. Judas was rebuked and immediately betrayed his Lord into the hands of His enemies, because Satan entered into him.

There is a superior intelligence bestowed upon such as obey the Gospel with full purpose of heart, which, if sinned against, the apostate is left naked and destitute of the Spirit of God, and he is, in truth, nigh unto cursing, and his end is to be burned. When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas-like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors. . . .

. . .

When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.

I believe that one reason why active Mormons often choose not to associate at all with former members of the church is that they actually believe that former members are possessed by Satan, as the above quote from Joseph Smith unequivocally states.

June 18, 2008

Every once in a while, I stumble on a web site or blog that has information on Mormonism presented in a unique way, or which contains information not commonly found elsewhere. For those looking for just such a site, I recommend clicking right here. It's a site by a former LDS missionary who has recently become disillusioned with the faith (sound familiar?). His latest post is on the racist doctrines of the LDS church (which have never been repudiated; only swept under the rug). Since tomorrow is Juneteenth, and this month is the 30th anniversary of the "policy change" declaration through which God decided He was no longer racist, it seems an appropriate time to send readers of Equality Time over there.

April 05, 2008

I originally posted this back on May 28, 2006. But in honor of the subject being "called" as a new "apostle" today in the LDS church, I thought I'd resurrect it and post it anew. I wonder if the opinions he expressed in the article will now take on additional heft among the members? Are words spoken prior to one's call given apostolic authori-tay?

If Jesus were to walk into an LDS church meeting today, how
would He be received? If the latest
article in a church magazine on the subject of dress and grooming is any
indication, Jesus very likely would be asked to leave. Why? Well,
let’s start with hair: in all the pictures I have seen of Jesus, He has long
hair. And, typically, He is shown
wearing open-toed shoes. According to an
LDS church General Authority, such things are offensive to God.

February 25, 2008

The LDS church, in response to the article published in the Salt Lake Tribune about Peter and Mary Danzig, issued a press release yesterday reiterating the church's strict zero tolerance policy for members who criticize church leaders. The full text of the press release appears after the jump. The gist is that the church did no wrong and that Danzig was wrong to send the letter and express his views on the subject. The doublespeak evident in the press release is interesting: members can question and dig and come to their own conclusions, but cannot express those views publicly if they differ from what church leaders think. At the same time, the church says members were free to write their senators and express their views on the marriage amendment, but that the church didn't tell them what those views had to be.

The press release also erroneously ascribes an error to the Tribune's reporting by wrongly stating that the article said Danzig suffered official church discipline. The article does not say that, but does use the generic term "discipline." Danzig lost his place in the orchestra, was summoned numerous times for interrogations by church leaders, and was told he would be excommunicated. For the church to say he wasn't "disciplined" is disingenuous.

It appears that people can leave the church, but the church can't leave people alone.

January 09, 2008

At the April 2007 General Conference, Elder Holland gave a talk that I think is most appropriate. I know some members of the ward I am in sometimes read my blog. I am sure they will appreciate reading something positive and uplifting as the words of a blessed apostle. Especially touching to me are the words I have highlighted in bold lettering. So, here it is:

The Prophet Joseph Smith deepened our understanding of the power of speech when he taught, “It is by words … [that] every being works when he works by faith.
God said, ‘Let there be light: and there was light.’ Joshua spake, and
the great lights which God had created stood still. Elijah commanded,
and the heavens were stayed for the space of three years and six
months, so that it did not rain. … All this was done by faith. … Faith, then, works by words; and with [words] its mightiest works have been, and will be, performed.”1 Like all gifts “which cometh from above,” words are “sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit.”2

It is with this realization of the power and sanctity of words that
I wish to caution us, if caution is needed, regarding how we speak to
each other and how we speak of ourselves.

There is a line from the Apocrypha which puts the seriousness of
this issue better than I can. It reads, “The stroke of the whip maketh
marks in the flesh: but the stroke of the tongue breaketh the bones.”3
With that stinging image in mind, I was particularly impressed to read
in the book of James that there was a way I could be “a perfect man.”

Said James: “For in many things we offend all. [But] if any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.”

Continuing the imagery of the bridle, he writes: “Behold, we put
bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about
their whole body.

“Behold also … ships, which though they be … great, and are driven
of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm.”

Then James makes his point: “The tongue is [also] a little member. …
[But] behold, how great a [forest (Greek)] a little fire [can burn].

“… So is the tongue [a fire] among our members, … it defileth the whole body, … it is set on fire of hell.

“For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, … hath been tamed of mankind:

“But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

“Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

“Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.”4

Well, that is pretty straightforward! Obviously James doesn’t mean our tongues are always iniquitous, nor that everything
we say is “full of deadly poison.” But he clearly means that at least
some things we say can be destructive, even venomous—and that is a
chilling indictment for a Latter-day Saint! The voice that bears
profound testimony, utters fervent prayer, and sings the hymns of Zion can be
the same voice that berates and criticizes, embarrasses and demeans,
inflicts pain and destroys the spirit of oneself and of others in the
process. “Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing,” James
grieves. “My brethren [and sisters], these things ought not so to be.”

Is this something we could all work on just a little? Is this an
area in which we could each try to be a little more like a “perfect”
man or woman?

Husbands, you have been entrusted with the most sacred gift God can
give you—a wife, a daughter of God, the mother of your children who has
voluntarily given herself to you for love and joyful companionship.
Think of the kind things you said when you were courting, think of the
blessings you have given with hands placed lovingly upon her head,
think of yourself and of her as the god and goddess you both inherently
are, and then reflect on other moments characterized by cold, caustic,
unbridled words. Given the damage that can be done with our tongues,
little wonder the Savior said, “Not that which goeth into the mouth
defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a
man.”5
A husband who would never dream of striking his wife physically can
break, if not her bones, then certainly her heart by the brutality of
thoughtless or unkind speech. Physical abuse is uniformly and
unequivocally condemned in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints. If it is possible to be more condemning than that, we speak
even more vigorously against all forms of sexual abuse. Today, I speak
against verbal and emotional abuse of anyone against anyone, but
especially of husbands against wives. Brethren, these things ought not
to be.

In that same spirit we speak to the sisters as well, for the sin of
verbal abuse knows no gender. Wives, what of the unbridled tongue in your mouth, of the power for good or ill in your
words? How is it that such a lovely voice which by divine nature is so
angelic, so close to the veil, so instinctively gentle and inherently
kind could ever in a turn be so shrill, so biting, so acrid and
untamed? A woman’s words can be more piercing than any dagger ever
forged, and they can drive the people they love to retreat beyond a
barrier more distant than anyone in the beginning of that exchange
could ever have imagined. Sisters, there is no place in that
magnificent spirit of yours for acerbic or abrasive expression of any
kind, including gossip or backbiting or catty remarks. Let it never be
said of our home or our ward or our neighborhood that “the tongue is a
fire, a world of iniquity … [burning] among our members.”

May I expand this counsel to make it a full family matter. We must
be so careful in speaking to a child. What we say or don’t say, how we
say it and when is so very, very important in shaping a child’s view of
himself or herself. But it is even more important in shaping that
child’s faith in us and their faith in God. Be constructive in your
comments to a child—always. Never tell them, even in whimsy, that they
are fat or dumb or lazy or homely. You would never do that maliciously,
but they remember and may struggle for years trying to forget—and to
forgive. And try not to compare your children, even if you think you
are skillful at it. You may say most positively that “Susan is pretty
and Sandra is bright,” but all Susan will remember is that she isn’t
bright and Sandra that she isn’t pretty. Praise each child individually
for what that child is, and help him or her escape our culture’s
obsession with comparing, competing, and never feeling we are “enough.”

In all of this, I suppose it goes without saying that negative
speaking so often flows from negative thinking, including negative
thinking about ourselves. We see our own faults, we speak—or at least
think—critically of ourselves, and before long that is how we see
everyone and everything. No sunshine, no roses, no promise of hope or
happiness. Before long we and everybody around us are miserable.

I love what Elder Orson F. Whitney once said: “The spirit of the
gospel is optimistic; it trusts in God and looks on the bright side of
things. The opposite or pessimistic spirit drags men down and away from
God, looks on the dark side, murmurs, complains, and is slow to yield
obedience.”6 We should honor the Savior’s declaration to “be of good cheer.”7
(Indeed, it seems to me we may be more guilty of breaking that
commandment than almost any other!) Speak hopefully. Speak
encouragingly, including about yourself. Try not to complain and moan
incessantly. As someone once said, “Even in the golden age of
civilization someone undoubtedly grumbled that everything looked too
yellow.”

I have often thought that Nephi’s being bound with cords and beaten
by rods must have been more tolerable to him than listening to Laman
and Lemuel’s constant murmuring.8
Surely he must have said at least once, “Hit me one more time. I can
still hear you.” Yes, life has its problems, and yes, there are
negative things to face, but please accept one of Elder Holland’s
maxims for living—no misfortune is so bad that whining about it won’t
make it worse.

Paul put it candidly, but very hopefully. He said to all of us: “Let
no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but [only] that
which is good … [and] edifying, that it may minister grace unto the
hearers.

“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God. …

“Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you. …

“And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.”9

In his deeply moving final testimony, Nephi calls us to “follow the
Son [of God], with full purpose of heart,” promising that “after ye
have … received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, [ye] can
speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels. … And …
how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy
Ghost? Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they
speak the words of Christ.”10 Indeed, Christ was and is “the Word,” according to John the Beloved,11 full of grace and truth, full of mercy and compassion.

So, brothers and sisters, in this long eternal quest to be more like
our Savior, may we try to be “perfect” men and women in at least this
one way now—by offending not in word, or more positively put, by
speaking with a new tongue, the tongue of angels. Our words, like our
deeds, should be filled with faith and hope and charity, the three
great Christian imperatives so desperately needed in the world today.
With such words, spoken under the influence of the Spirit, tears can be
dried, hearts can be healed, lives can be elevated, hope can return,
confidence can prevail. I pray that my words, even on this challenging
subject, will be encouraging to you, not discouraging, that you can
hear in my voice that I love you, because I do. More importantly,
please know that your Father in Heaven loves you and so does His Only
Begotten Son. When They speak to you—and They will—it will not be in
the wind, nor in the earthquake, nor in the fire, but it will be with a
voice still and small, a voice tender and kind.12
It will be with the tongue of angels. May we all rejoice in the thought
that when we say edifying, encouraging things unto the least of these,
our brethren and sisters and little ones, we say it unto God.13 In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

December 20, 2007

Over at the Fox News web site, they have posted 21 questions posed to the LDS church and answered by the voice for the "one true and living church on the face of the earth"--yea, even the unnamed public relations spokesperson. While some of the questions are poorly worded, they do represent a decent sampling of questions frequently encountered by members of the LDS church. So, how did the church do in answering? I present here the questions, the answers, and my commentary. Before getting to the Q&A, I find this from the article interesting: "The Church objected to
answering some of the questions on the grounds that they misrepresent
the basic tenets of the Mormon religion." I am not sure why that would be an objection? Why not just correct any misrepresentation in the answer?

Also, the church's prefatory statement is curious: "Many
of these questions are typically found on anti-Mormon blogs or Web
sites which aim to misrepresent or distort Mormon doctrines. Several of these questions do not
represent ... any serious attempt to depict the core values and beliefs
of its members."

Which questions? And which blogs and which web sites "aim to misrepresent or distort Mormon doctrines"? Is the church perhaps referring to the www.josephsmith.net web site and its misrepresentations of the gold-plate translation process and Joseph Smith's family life? It's hard to know. And should questions that people have about Mormonism make a "serious attempt to depict the core values and beliefs of" Mormons? Isn't the point of the questions to find out about those beliefs and values? A strange objection, to be sure. On to the Q&A.

On December 15, 2007, Elder Russell M. Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS church gave an address to graduates of BYU-Hawaii. He spoke about the changes in media he has witnessed in his 80 years. In his address, he shows that he is up to speed on the new media--his grandkids gave him an iPod, he uses email, he is aware of Facebook, blogs, and podcasts. This in itself is refreshing. Some in the Bloggernacle have on occasion wondered whether church leaders are wary of blogs and discussion boards dealing with Mormonism, and whether the church might try to "crack down" on members' online expressions. Elder Ballard's talk appears to alleviate some of those fears (though it is not clear that all the Brethren share his views; nonetheless, it is gratifying to see a member of the Twelve embrace the new media). Here is an excerpt:

Today we have a modern equivalent of the printing press in the Internet
and all that it means. The Internet allows everyone to be a publisher,
to have their voice heard, and it is revolutionizing society. Before
the Internet, there were great barriers to printing. It took money,
power, or influence and a great amount of time to publish. But today,
because of the emergence of what some call New Media, made possible by
the Internet, many of those barriers have been removed. New Media
consists of tools on the Internet that make it possible for nearly
anyone to publish or broadcast to either a large or a niche audience. I
have mentioned some of these tools already, and I know you are familiar
with them. The emergence of New Media is facilitating a world-wide
conversation on almost every subject including religion, and nearly
everyone can participate. This modern equivalent of the printing press
is not reserved only for the elite.

Of course, he has to put in the obligatory "Satan wants to take this great thing and wreak havoc with it" meme, but then he goes on:

That word conversation is important. There are
conversations going on about the Church constantly. Those conversations
will continue whether or not we choose to participate in them. But we
cannot stand on the sidelines while others, including our critics,
attempt to define what the Church teaches. While some conversations
have audiences in the thousands or even millions, most are much, much
smaller. But all conversations have an impact on those who participate
in them. Perceptions of the Church are established one conversation at
a time.

And further:

Far too many people have a poor understanding of the Church because
most of the information they hear about us is from news media reports
that are often driven by controversies. . . . You, too, can tell your story to nonmembers in this way. Use stories
and words that they will understand. Talk honestly and sincerely about
the impact the gospel has had in your life . . . . The
audiences for these and other New Media tools may often be small, but
the cumulative effect of thousands of such stories can be great. . . . You could help overcome misperceptions through your own sphere of influence, which ought to include the Internet.

I am gratified to know that what I am doing here as a Latter-day Saint with my little blog has the blessing of an apostle. I agree with Elder Ballard that there are many misperceptions about the LDS church. I hope that my blog helps correct some of those misperceptions. Whether people have misperceptions because of something they have read in an evangelical tract, a mainstream newspaper, or they have misperceptions because they received erroneous information from the missionaries, the gospel doctrine teacher, or the church PR department*, it is the same. And if I can help people gain a balanced, correct understanding of the church, well, I consider myself blessed.

*My next post will be devoted to correcting some of the misperceptions people may have formed as a result of relying upon the LDS church PR department's answers to questions posed by Fox News journalists. I hope Elder Ballard appreciates the effort I am putting forth in setting the record straight.

December 18, 2007

My friend, colleague, and fellow ward-mate Jordan F. recently put up this post on the "Mantle and the Intellect" at the blog he co-hosts with his brother John--A Bird's Eye View. In the post, Jordan defends an oft-criticized talk given by President Boyd K. Packer in 1981 titled "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect." In that talk President Packer, among other things, encouraged LDS church scholars and educators to teach a faith-promoting version of history and to downplay or ignore entirely any facts or evidence from the historical record that could cast the leaders of the church in a negative light. He discouraged the dissemination of information about church leaders that would show their humanity, telling church educators to focus exclusively on information that supports the Mormon truth claim that God is leading and guiding the leaders of the LDS church. I disagree with much of what President Packer says in the talk, and with the way he says it. Jordan has a different view, seeing the talk as "a beacon of light in today’s sea of spiritual darkness that is much of academia."

In his spirited defense of President Packer, Jordan notes that at the heart of Packer's talk is the idea that Mormon history cannot be properly understood without starting with the conclusion, born of the Holy Ghost, that the foundational claims of the LDS church are true. In other words, the only proper approach to Mormon history for consumption by members of the LDS church is from the perspective of a true-believing Mormon who accepts Joseph Smith as the prophet of the restoration, the Utah-based church as the only true and living church on earth, the Book of Mormon as literal history translated by the gift and power of God, and the authority of those who lead the LDS church as absolute. In other words, as Jordan puts it, the facts about Mormon history "cannot be properly understood divorced from a belief that God
orchestrated the whole thing through imperfect and misunderstanding
human beings." Jordan thinks that, regarding Mormon history, "one MUST look at the foundational events of the Church through a lens
of testimony in order to see the evidence of the divine hand in them,
and . . . this is also how church history MUST be taught in LDS
classrooms."

In Jordan's post, he points to me as a living example of the "problem" Packer was seeking to prevent with his "Mantle and Intellect" talk. Jordan quotes from an earlier post of mine here at Equality Time, in which I discuss my decision to re-assess Mormon truth claims by examining the facts and evidence with my "testimony lenses" off. This re-assessment led me to doubt, then reject, the literal truth of the LDS church's foundational claims. And this gets to the heart of the disagreement between me and Jordan. He thinks that Mormonism's foundational truth claims should be assumed, a priori, and that one's evaluation of church history and doctrine must be filtered to support that beginning assumption. Any examination, exploration, or exposition of Mormon doctrine or history should be informed by and infused with a testimony of the divinity of the work. To quote my friend, we should "view the historical record through the lens of faith and our spiritual impressions." I respectfully disagree.

October 17, 2007

With all the great resources out there for people who are engaged in religious studies generally and Mormon studies in particular, I thought I would start a new recurring feature here at Equality Time to help people find the best blogs and web sites out there on the "Internets" that deal with these subjects. For the inaugural post in what I intend to be a regular series, I feature a newly created blog by a talented artist (who, it seems, at this point wants to remain anonymous). The blog is called Images of the Restoration. The author/artist of this blog has created a number of compelling depictions of events from Mormon history--events that Mormon apologists, studious members of the LDS Church who venture outside the correlated materials, and critics of the LDS Church alike are aware of but which are seldom if ever mentioned or depicted in official LDS Church lesson materials. Mormon apologists sometimes argue that the LDS Church, as an institution, does not whitewash or cover up its history, and that blame for artwork in church manuals, etc. that is not historically accurate should be laid at the feet of the artists and not the church that uses their work. Critics disagree, and sometimes point to the way the translation of the Book of Mormon is most often portrayed in church-approved and distributed print and visual media. For example, the following pictures are probably familiar to most members of the LDS Church:

October 12, 2007

If anyone is curious how the LDS Church's "love the sinner, hate the sin" approach to homosexuality plays out on the ground among the lay members of the church, you need only look to the CBS Survivor blog for your answer. This season's Survivor features a "gay Mormon" named Todd. Apparently, many true believing Mormons think the term "gay Mormon" is not only oxymoronic but downright offensive. Read the comments left at the Survivor blog here to see ignorance and hate--based on religious dogma--in all their glory.

Oh, and for the ultimate result of the LDS Church's incessant preaching about the "evils" of homosexuality, see this thread at the New Order Mormon site. How many people have to die before the Brethren dial back the hateful rhetoric?

October 09, 2007

The
LDS Church, like any organization that asks people to do things they
wouldn't normally do on their own, employs a variety of persuasive
techniques. What follows is an examination of three of the LDS Church's
techniques: (1) Moroni's Promise, found in Moroni 10:4; (2) Alma the
Younger's Sermon on the Seed, from Alma 32; and (3) Boyd K. Packer's
Testimony Experiment, from "The Candle of the Lord," a 1982 address to
mission presidents, published on page 51 of the January 1983 Ensign.

The Low Ball

The "low ball" is a common sales technique that
consists of offering a really good deal to a potential customer,
building rapport, and then subtly adding conditions to the deal that
make it less of a bargain, relying on the customer's reluctance to
walk away and be perceived as (1) greedy, shallow, or cheap (for only wanting
the best deal), (2) stupid (for not realizing there would be
conditions), or (3) a liar (if they promised to buy before learning of
the conditions).

A low ball is commonly found in print or
broadcast media, for example, when an advertisement is followed by fine print (or
really, really fast talking). In religion, the low ball is common enough to be cliche:
"God will freely forgive you of all of your sins (but only if you send
me money)." Like this example, the technique usually involves an
independent positive statement, followed by a "BUT" phrase. Low balls
are routinely used by the LDS Church. They are found in scripture and
taught over the pulpit.

October 04, 2007

In following up on the story about the excommunication of Mesa, Arizona church member Lyndon Lamborn, I emailed Lyndon asking for more details about the circumstances surrounding his excommunication. He kindly responded and, with his permission, I post his response here. The words are entirely his (with a few minor editorial revisions to clean up typos or protect the identity of those whose permission for revealing their identity I did not obtain). Some of his words are stronger than what I would have chosen to use, but I think his story is important, and it has garnered enough interest, to share it here uncensored and not watered down. The words following the jump are Lyndon's own, and it is my understanding they were originally written in response to further media inquiries. My thanks to Lyndon for allowing me to share this with the readers of Equality Time.

October 01, 2007

I have been participating off and on this past week in an online discussion regarding the excommunication of a disaffected Mormon in Mesa, Arizona. The discussion has apparently shattered the record for most comments ever received on a news article published in the East Valley Tribune. The article that spawned the discussion concerns one Lyndon Lamborn, a member of the Thunder Mountain Ward in Mesa. Apparently, Lamborn has been studying church history and doctrine from non-approved, non-correlated sources for the past couple years (sound familiar to anyone), and he has come to doubt the literal dogmatism contained in the official sources. Lamborn shared his doubts with his Bishop and Stake President (James Molina). He also shared some of his doubts and concerns with his brothers (who are also Mormon) and some of the members of his ward. For this, he was excommunicated. That's not so unusual (unfortunately). What is unusual is that President Molina told Lamborn that his excommunication would be announced in every ward in the stake in Priesthood and Relief Society meetings. And that's when Lamborn went to the media.