I've had issues with it, too. I don't know if it's much different today vs. a year+ ago when I last *really* tried, but I remember wasting like 15 arrows without it falling down. Other times I remember it has come down more easily. It just seems to depend on if the physics want to be finicky. It shouldn't need more than an arrow or two, but it sometimes did/does(?). It might need to be placed on something that makes it sit on an angle or more unbalanced to make it more apt to falling. That said, I just mantled up there today and reached out with a lit candle to knock it down Then left the lit candle sitting in its place. It's not easy getting a lit candle up that high; especially since you can't climb with a candle in your hand. (EDIT: Yeah, just tried again, and it's still doesn't come down very easily when you're standing in front of it from the ground and shooting up at it. I launched around 10 arrows at it to no avail... so stepped off to the side and hit it from that direction and it fell. It should fall off pretty easily no matter where you shoot it from, imo.) As for getting past the guard, I think I might have found an alternate path around him once ... but I have no clue how to do it anymore. I've tried a couple times the past week, and the only way I can get past is to run past him and hide. Maybe I need to pay more attention to the readables (which I didn't do). (EDIT: Okay, I finally found the way everyone is talking about, but that's mainly because I was on the look-out for an obscure alternate path based on this thread's posts/feedback. I almost walked right past it again. Yeah, it seems too obscure of thing for an intro mission, imo. I recognized the area, so I must have been there a long time ago, though. And at the Bear & Belcher, I still can't tell if the room with a dead rat in it is accessible. If not, that's just mean to have there There's even a strange blue-ish thing in there that piques my curiosity (I can't tell what it is). A newbie should be rewarded for finding a way to get in there to encourage them to do similar things in future missions. I've spent an hour looking for a switch or something to get in there with no success. Even brought a crate in there from down the street to stand on at the cracked door, and even propped a 2x6 plank against that door to try and see if that vantage point would help anything. If there's a way in, I recommend making it a tad more apparent; assuming this mission is intended to be an introduction to TDM gameplay. It also looks like there's maybe an area to explore up above the room where the guy is sitting in the tavern (if you look through the slats of the ceiling, there is intrigue), but I can't figure out how to get there, if it's possible. I'm not used to inaccessible areas like that in Thief-like gameplay; there's usually a purpose to such curiosities. PS: If you launch two or three broadheads at the dead rat, he goes crazy in that room, heh. Goes airborne and bounces off of walls, etc.)

Please no, lol Good point. I like the flexibility of being able to move candles. In Requiem I took a candle and placed it at a grave site, for example. For no reason other than I could, and it was symbolic of paying respects. I wouldn't really want candles glued to tables everywhere. There is some charm to having to pick up candles first, but I wouldn't be sad to see a new button created (it could be unassigned by default) that allows us to put out candles or shoulder bodies with one keystroke. Yep, I'm aware of what's going on with the mechanic and do my best to avoid the consequences of an uncentered candle (or junk object) lift off. Accidents sometimes happen, though, and it never feels like it was my fault. Aside from creating a new button, I don't know that there's any other option. Unless... has it been tested to keep the object perfectly in place where we pick it up at? Maybe it should not re-center itself. I realize part of re-centering is probably a visual cue to let us know that we've grabbed the object, but maybe there's a different (still subtle) way to signify that (e.g., a tiny/very subtle frob highlight flash at the moment of grabbing; or slightly brightened frob highlight while we are actually holding it; or? there'd be some way, imo). This could help in other situations, too. For instance: The other day, I was snagging a bunch of loot off a table (a fury of mouseclicks, which I think is fun when you can do that on big piles of coins ). However, somehow some junk object or candle well off to the left of the pile of loot that was in the middle of my screen took focus and I accidentally grabbed that instead, which caused a clanging raucous as it re-centered on my screen. Since I was clicking like crazy, I didn't have time to see that the object had been highlighted before clicking the mouse that fateful time. A guard was nearby who became alert. I blamed the game, so I QuickLoaded. If the object didn't re-center and I knew I had grabbed the object (or if it just picked it up and dropped it where it was really quick because I was mouseclicking so fast), I would've had a better chance of not causing sound. But it's probably been discussed to death behind-the-scenes and there are good reasons for how/why the system works as it currently does. I don't claim to know all the variables factoring in. Just sharing two cents (from the pile of loot I grabbed, heh). Where's Sparhawk when you need him I think he was also wanting T1/T2 style lockpicking, and thought for sure he was going to selfishly code it in. Ha! Darn. I hear what you're saying. I've just never liked manual lockpicking in any game that requires too much attention, so I have my selfish reasons, I suppose. I get bored with it and it becomes a frustrating, repetitive task I don't like after about the tenth time in any game. Honestly, all that is probably needed is to allow the assigning of value "0" for "seta tdm_lp_basecount" in Darkmod.cfg to truly be zero when assigned, and then I can adjust it myself. (Or maybe it's the "seta tdm_lp_autopick_attempts" setting I need to have "0" actually act like a zero; not sure.) Instead, setting to "0" seems to put autopicking into some sort of "fail forever" mode. Using "1" seems to be the lowest you can go, but I think that somehow creates a "1 + 1 = 2 cycles" event rather than the "1 cycle" (0 + 1) event I'm looking for. I've already tweaked it as follows, which is better but not perfect yet. I don't think there's any way to set these to make it be a 1 cycle event...
seta tdm_lp_debug_hud "0"
seta tdm_lp_pawlow "0"
seta tdm_lp_randomize "1"
seta tdm_lp_autopick_attempts "1"
seta tdm_lp_pick_timeout "10"
seta tdm_lp_sample_delay "1"
seta tdm_lp_base_count "1" Another way to go might be to just make the value "1" equal "1" instead of "1+1". What is "seta tdm_lp_pawlow" for, by the way? I'll check the Wiki again, but I don't think it said when I looked before. Yeah, it's been that way as long as I can remember and makes the blackjacking action iteself seem a little sloppy (not as tight) as it could/should, imo. I don't think my computer processing speed is the culprit either, since other sound events seem to be timed okay with the on-screen action and Thief 2014 ran quite well for me. Would be interesting to see how blackjacking feels if it's possible to sync the sound up better with the action. That would be awesome and more convenient, but I have the center mouse used for object manipulation. What key do you use for object manipulation? I tried doing what you say and also moved the 'Object Manipulation' trigger to the TAB key, but holding TAB doesn't let me manipulate objects anymore.

For autopicking: I still contend I successfully advance a lock manually the first click-cycle the large majority of the time; so making autopick do the same would not be a strong net benefit and doesn't all the sudden ruin a mapper's complexity desires. For candles, I also don't like that i have to lift it up with right mouse button, then put it out with TAB or Tilde (~) key (default was an even more inconvenient 'Enter' key), and then carefully set it down. Just seems like way too mich of a cerebral interaction than it needs to be. Not intuitive/natural, thus not immersive for me. Every time I interact with a candle, I'n reminded of how if it were real life, I'd not have to lift the candle up. All in all, I'm just recommending things that will cause me to play the mod more and have more fun while doing so.

Candles - Interesting. I'm just reporting what pretty much every map I've played has done; so I assumed it was a default implementation provided by the toolset. Chests - I wouldn't like the way you say because I want control. I'd want to be able to shut the lid even without taking everything. (Besides, sometimes there are junk objects in chests that you won't want to take; so you can't count on it being emptied every time.) I think they should just make the *lid* frobbable; not the entire chest. From a player's perspective, I don't think the entire chest needs to be/should be frobbable. KOs - I don't mind a little risk... but I don't like frustration. Sometimes seems awkward/unrealistic about how it currently works. Maybe if guards didn't get a sixth sense at the last moment or if blackjack attacks had a slightly larger strike zone/distance I'd be more okay with their movement speed.

1. The blackjack *thump* sound doesn't occur until it's at the bottom of the screen or beyond. Would like the sound to be timed more with it's impact on the AI's head or neck to make the action feel tight. 2. Would like blackjacking nerfed a little more. I'm a KO'er and it's very difficult to catch up to guards without alerting them either as you approach or, if nothing else, at the last second. (They often seem to have a sixth-sense at the last second, becoming aware and attacking you.) And while trying to be careful to not get caught, it often requires traveling a fairly substantial distance, relatively speaking, with greater risk of running into or being seen by other AI that shouldn't really have factored into the situation, just because you're trying to catch up to your target. (Might be nice to have the AI's default walk speed a little slower.) 3. The vocal sets could use some improvement and more added, of course. I've played a mission or two the past week where one of the guards seems so disinterested, with a "ho-hum" attitude when he's attacking; He's literally just calmly speaking the lines in a dejected manner that's reminiscent of Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh, for lack of better comparison (sorry). If it's an intentional characterization, it's not delivered in a believable manner and hurts immersion. I'm not yet sure if this voice is unique to the map(s), or a part of the default voice set included with TDM. The same goes for other voices, though -- ones that are default to TDM -- where they're not really sounding genuinely angry or riled-up when attacking; they just casually talk or deliver the lines in a highly scripted manner. 4. If you have auto-lockpicking enabled, it should successfully advance the lock to the next level after one full lock-jiggle cycle, not two or more. (I have mine set to two, and I can't remember if that's because of a tweak I did or if it's default. Seems like the default was four?, but I could be wrong.) I feel like it's a penalty to force me to sit through it multiple times before advancing to the next lockpick. I just genuinely don't like lockpick minigames that require more than just the T1/T2 style. I liked that classic style so much that I don't want to bother with mini-games. If I do the lockpicking manually, I almost always get it on the first try... so why shouldn't the auto-lockpick be successful on the first attempt, as well? I just don't personally understand having a penalty for auto-picking; why should its use be dissuaded? People who like the manual mini-game can keep doing the mini-game, and people who don't like it can automate it (i.e., it wouldn't hurt the experience of people who like doing the mini-game). 5. I wish putting out candles didn't require the candle to be picked up first. Also, when picking candles up, it sometimes clangs around as it tries to center itself in your view or whatever. (I think it's a lot better than it used to be, but it still causes the occasional unexpected/unforeseeable cacophony of sound.) 6. It's usually very difficult to get items out of chests. I think mainly because the entire chest frob-highlights; it might be partly due to the chest height (not sure), as when trying to hit the sweet spot that makes the loot in the chest highlight, I often have to crouch a little. 7. When trying to exit either the Map or Objectives screen -- can't remember which one offhand, or maybe it's both -- I almost always hit the ESC key out of habit. But doing so takes me to the game's Main Menu instead. Is it possible to make ESC act like an "I'm closing the book" type of key in that instance so it brings you immediately back to the game rather than to the menu screen? Sorry if some of these are already in the works, were already deemed technically impossible, or labeled 'not happening.' Just trying to share some ideas that I've felt would make my experience a little better. Definitely a fun game, if I may be so bold as to call it a 'game' , but look forward to seeing more refinement.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary will need to update their definition of a game if The Dark Mod isn't a game. I will submit feedback to them to have their entry updated if the net result of this discussion ends up being that TDM is not an activity people engage in for pleasure, diversion or amusement...

Is awesome you have this recording access! Congrats! I've personally always wished the sounds for taking an arrow out and putting it away were improved. Something more whole; heartier. I don't know what it's supposed to sound like... I just feel the current sounds are hollow and ungratifying. And they don't really sound realistic to me. I'm pretty sure some folks here like the current sounds, so please take it for what it's worth. Also, I might recommend the water arrow splash and douse sound could maybe use a little refinement. I'd be curious to see what could come up for these, in case they happen to be improvements everyone agrees with.

It's impossible to please everyone; of course some will roll their eyes. I would roll my eyes at "Team Dark Mod" and many others that were proposed. This name was the only one that finally brought a good amount of unity and solidarity behind what the name should be. There was a lot less divisiveness with this name than all of the other ones. Squabble Studios was mentioned as a candidate in jest for good reason, lol.

I think me titling it a splash screen for a 17+ second video was a bit of a misnomer on my behalf My fault. If a true splash screen is ever created and if it ever gets used, it'll certainly be shorter and more to the point. No worries.

Ooh, I forgot about that saying! Great idea. Sneaksie and Squill, those are awesome ideas, too! I love this animation stuff; wish I was more adept. Perhaps in due time I will be able to make some of these ideas come to fruition! Thanks for all the feedback/ideas...

Good feedback, esp. Domarius. Gracias! I'm glad you think the logo showing up twice is kinda weird. My first tests were actually without it re-appearing (which is what I first wanted), but that, too, was odd -- in a different way. I think it just boils down to the composition not being ideal, having limited resources to work with and losing patience with my computer I just wanted your guys' feedback, so won't be posting on YouTube. Besides, if a splash screen ever comes to be, I would think we'd want to wait for release rather than publicize prematurely? I wish my PC wasn't ancient so I could whip through and easily create test reels. Takes hours to process these stupid things!! So I'm kinda left to work with whatever movie generates sometimes. I'm getting better at setting the animations up, though, so some day I'll have a better idea of what the final product will be before generating the movie. Not perfect, though, since my PC is so slow and I sometimes have to look at wireframes rather than shaded models in the layout. I think in the end, the length of these would make them more suitable for the intro to some publicity video rather than a splash screen. And loudly shattering glass isn't really thief-like; so I'm not a huge fan of that. But if was fun breaking things! Utimately, I was treating these as fun experiments. I'll try some shortened splash screen experiments based on some of your guys' comments since those would be equally as fun (and educational). Unfortunately, I think NH's request might be out of my league! I'll try to figure out how to do that, but I think my skill-level is a little too low for such a feat. On the other hand, if it's more glass flying, it'll still be loud when it shatters -- unless we just use whooshing sound effects or something as an artistic substitute. Maybe instead of the glass flying, the glass could form stress fractures throughout it and then subtly drop to the ground; then rise up to re-form a Broken Glass Studios logo? That would be more subtle than glass flying. Still probably out of my league to do, though; but I'll be thinking about both ways. NH: Just to clarify, when you say "flying outwards," do you mean "into the screen/away from the user" or "out of the screen/at the user"?

Some ideas for a splash screen I whipped up for fun: Broken Glass Studios - Splash 1 (.avi, 7MB) Broken Glass Studios - Splash 2 (.mov, 5.6MB) Broken Glass Studios - Splash 3 (.avi, 4.6MB) Let me know what you think. I know in the past, I think it was the consensus that most were against splash screens. I personally like them. I wonder if anyone's minds have changed here. If you want me to tweak anything, I can. I know these are not subtle with the glass sounds, and all, but I can make subtle ones by not breaking the glass, if you wish. I usually like subtle, but I might be okay here... since the studio name is a bit of an oxymoron anyways. I also had limited sound effects choices, so if you have better, I can try them.

I'm not sure if this is useful for the mod, or not -- or if you've already seen -- but I just stumbled across this and thought I'd share in case it is helpful: http://www.cgarena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52789 Which links to here... http://mocap.cs.cmu.edu/ Looks like they have animation files in a few formats, like .bvh, .tvd, .c3d, .amc. Are they usable in a video game at all? I'm not familiar enough with rigging and animating in 3-D apps to know if they're useful. A few animation video samples: Slow Walk1 Slow Walk2 Zombie March Drink Soda (AKA Benny taking a swig, lol) Wait for bus Sit on stepstool, stand up Insect/praying mantis

Crispy - And on the flip side, seeing only the candle flame move wouldn't do much for me, personally. If something like this were ever done, I would think you'd also want some light bouncing off the table underneath the candle or the chair on the right. Candle Flicker 2 has just what you say (static Dark Mod logo), but with the chair bouncing light from the candle. It should probably be softer and more subtle than what I have, though. SH - I'm not sure if Noisycricket was looking to modify the forum's banner, or was just wanting a more atmospheric home page (thedarkmod.com) upon or nearing the release. I thought it was moreso the latter. I feel the banners used on the sites could use some subtle life somehow someday, but I would agree it's probably not a pressing need by any means, considering the toolset is still under construction. And no matter what the site looks like, people will download The Dark Mod. I think it would accentuate the final product by having a more atmospheric site or sites in the end. (And no, I'm not saying a candle flicker would be the only way.)

The flame in Candle Flicker 2 is an actual candle flame. I filmed one on my desk at home and put it in there, and the flame had some nice dancing to it you can't really see in that compressed video. At the time, I had also tried to make an animated GIF of it, but as stated above, it looked really bad. With more time, I might've been able to make something for a web page... but just kinda gave up on things when I couldn't get After Effects to cooperate very well with file sizes and video compressions, etc. It probably wasn't the most ideal application to use.

The team tinkered with the idea of a flickering candle and other ideas for the forum pages here years ago, but the thoughts were pretty quickly dismissed in favor of actually doing work on the mod itself. Would've been too much unproductive time. I did some tiny candle flicker experiments... nothing special. I think oDDity did some experiments, too -- and his were probably, naturally, better. In the end, though, the idea just kinda fell by the wayside. I just now uploaded my quick video tests to imageshack here. (Wow, imageshack sure degrades the quality when compressing. Not that the videos were very HQ to begin with, but one of these is atrocious.) Regardless, you might get the idea of some things we were messing with. (Before you click the play button, that's more like the original image quality of how the video is before imageshack compression): Candle Flicker 1 Candle Flicker 2 It was fun to mess around with the idea for a short time anyways. If anything were to be done to the website for the release, I'm thinking it would be funner to do more than a candle flicker. But it really does take time away from creating the mod toolset to do stuff like this.

Here's an old thread that has discussions about how maybe make loot items appear as though they are loot before picking them up or before frobbing them without going the TDS route. I can't tell if you're doing the things described in that thread or not. If not, no worries; I'm sure you're on a good track. I'm just bringing it up for historic reference in case it helps... My Mansion Loot Don't worry, I've been quiet a long time here so I won't claim to be up-to-speed on the mod; and so I won't dig up old threads to refer to hardly ever. I hope it was okay to post this here. The ability to distinguish what is loot before frobbing and what happens when you frob loot kind've go hand-in-hand, so I didn't find it too off-topic, if at all. PS: I can't believe you guys have such high post counts now! Unbelievable!! -DF (going back into the shadows)

Good day, I saved all my source audio files as .OGG from the start, as that's what I was told the mod needed. I didn't create a lot of audio files, and I don't think very many are being used in the mod(?), but I just wanted to mention. I wonder if other audio guys also thought they should just save as OGG and not have any WAV files? For some of the things I did -- including machine sounds -- I made the audio rather long so they could be trimmed, as needed, and looped, if possible. (Better to give more than not enough, was my rationale.) I also wasn't good at seamlessly "looping" the wavelengths (not sure I have good software for it). Let me know if you need more explanation or anything. I wish I could say I had "source WAV files," but I don't. Pretty much have only OGGs and MP3s on my end. Sorry! -DF