Saturday, June 20, 2015

As you may have heard, certain scoundrels have declared a boycott of Tor, starting today, to protest the efforts of some Tor employees to defend the Hugo Awards from attack. In response, some of our friends have declared today "Buy A Tor Book Day."

I wouldn't have the temerity to ask you to buy a book just because some idiots have declared war on us. But if there _is_ a Tor Book you've been meaning to get anyway, buying it today would be a a gesture I'd appreciate.

[As always here on Facebook, I'm speaking for myself and not the company.]

Since the Puppy boycott of Tor Books is on I just bought three ebooks from Tor and preordered two more.

And if Mr. Feder is only speaking for himself, who is this "us" to whom he refers? Whose friends are they? But it is nice of him to dial down the rhetoric from "racist neo-nazis" to mere "idiots" and "scoundrels".

Meanwhile, Peter Grant points out that Feder is lying. Personally, I find Feder's explanation of the boycott to be fascinating, as apparently Irene Gallo was merely defending the Hugo Awards from attack when she described Tor-published books as "bad-to-reprehensible", attacked Tor's customers as "racist" and "misogynistic" and "neo-nazi". That's an interesting priority. I was not hitherto aware that "defending the Hugo Awards" was a professional responsibility for employees at Tor Books.

It's worth pointing out that we are not at war with Tor Books. We are merely asking Macmillan to save Tor Books from the observably self-destructive and unprofessional leadership of three of its senior employees, who have abused Tor's authors and attacked Tor's customers.

182 Comments:

to protest the efforts of some Tor employees to defend the Hugo Awards from attack.

And, once again, our host's First Law is proven. I urge anyone on the fence to read that again and determine for yourself if it is the truth or a lie and draw the necessary conclusion from that judgment.

We aren't at war with them! We are trying to save their company from people THAT THEY MISTAKENLY HIRED. People WHO WORK FOR TOR BOOKS, BUT DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT TOR BOOKS. They would kill their own company rather then extend the hand of friendship. That is who they are, down to the core of their twisted souls. Macmillan needs to cut them loose, all of them, today.

The "we are not in competition" comment was interesting. Should be interesting to see if the "I'm not speaking for my company" boilerplate will be seen as a social media ethics violation. Because that post, if I wrote it, would still get me fired.

to protest the efforts of some Tor employees to defend the Hugo Awards from attack

Yeah, TOR people calling TOR authors' works "bad to reprehensible", some defense of the Hugos, that, given one TOR author has been nominated for five of them. Who is the idiot, Mr. Feder? Come on, it's not a hard question.

"To be fair" ought to be on some kind of list. Not the list of Gamma Tells; maybe the list of "Phrases that warn you someone's about to try to pull something on you." Or, "Phrases used to introduce facts which are true but irrelevant." Still not pithy enough. I'll work on it.

Scintan, how is it a straw man to point out that Vox is misreading Feder.

"certain scoundrels have declared a boycott of Tor" would be referring to Vox and the other guy. "Tor's unhappy customers" in total are not being referred to as idiots or scoundrels.

Vox will often misread for advantage, but this is just incorrect.As you may have heard,

Where did Vox claim that it was all unhappy TOR customers?

He didn't. Therefore, you set up a pretty obvious and textbook strawman argument, by claiming Vox has said something he didn't (that would be known as lying, in some quarters). Now you're doubling down on it, because.....

Scintan; so you think when Vox said "Tor's unhappy customers" he was referring to only him and the Peter guy?

What I may think he was referring to, and what you actually wrote, are two different issues. "Tor's unhappy customers" could range from 2 people to 2 million, and could, obviously, include just Vox and Peter. Therefore, you lied, and you did it in order to try fighting a straw man of your own creation. Now you're doubling down, because that's what your kind does.

OK girl. What is with you people and the use of "lie" in place of "possibly misunderstood". I noticed that what Peter did as well.

Had you stopped after your first post, when I noticed (correctly, as it turned out) the creation of a straw man, you could argue that you merely misunderstood as opposed to you lying. Once you went on from there, that opportunity was lost by you.

Also, you don't seem to know what doubling down means, so you may with to consult a dictionary.

I expect, in the short term, Tor books to sell hotly. Big money can move a small amount of it to buy them, and either warehouse or hand them out for other reasons. Long term doesn't look so cheery. Big money has other hot-spots on which to pour their dollars. That is, if the big corrupting money sees the fight as worth paper over, for a bit. Doesn't matter to me, one way or the other. Tor is done until or unless it fixes it's public face.

Vox, this latest post was perfectly articulated. From my point of view as a lawyer, I cannot see how any person, who is honestly coming to this issue and trying to make an objective assessment of it, can conclude other than that we have the facts and the moral high ground on our side.

Well played, sir. Beautifully articulated. If you were a swordsman, I would categorise you as a Spanish master, whose weapon is the stiletto. I love the Conan the Barbarian broadsword approach to fighting, personally, but you've proved the effectiveness of surgical lunges with pinpoint accuracy.

Because we've seen this type of argument too many times in the past to believe you.

I found the ad hom 'girl' shot to be unimpressive, particularly given that he was in the process of retreating by changing from his earlier attack mode to the claim of there possibly just being a misunderstanding.

I do, however, wonder if his SJW friends would be amused by his framing "girl" as an insult.

I'm bummed. Thanks to Larry Correia, I found John C. Wright. Thanks to the Puppies, I found Kevin J. Anderson. Now I am going to have to get my fix waaaaaaaiting for the library or used book stores. I'm partway through The Dark Between the Stars! (I was also excited to see PN Elrod writing again.). Sigh. At least Anderson has a huge backlog of work already out there. Maybe I will get a Kindle so I can check out Wrights eBooks. Of course this is not a criticism of Our Most Cruel and Malevolent Master. I am a minion. Vilely, facelessly reading Dark Between the Stars more slowly. Maybe the horse will learn to sing.

I'm informally boycotting Tor now as well. Its mostly informal for me as I haven't been buying much from them of late and I'll state up front that it won't matter much to their bottom line.

What happened is Tor has made this a moral issue,libel people I consider decent and moral and there has to be at least some consequences. So I do what I can.

Also what Tor management has to understand is that the Puppies and friends like myself involved in this boycott are at heart friends of Tor, not enemies.

I can't speak for anyone but myself but I want to buy good books from good publishers. Allowing the kind of ideologies running the place now to continue will run Tor into the ground and that is bad for everyone.

Also the libelous folks that started this mess also need to understand the SJW warren can only protect them for a little while.

The rest of us are patient and cruel and can wait till the Tor sun gutters out if we have to. I don't think probably imaginary buying surges can make up for the long term possibly permanent loss of business.

However we shall see and I suspect a few weeks or months will show how the tide turns.

Also as an aside, if we have favorite authors, especially ilk who are with Tor, if possible maybe we can find another way to help them out. Either buy something from another publisher or direct or whatever, I hate for them to end up accidental casualties of a war they want nothing of . As they say, friendly fire isn't.

"It's got to be nice for Tor Books to know they've got so many imaginary friends defending them. As we have been repeatedly and reliably informed:"

All you have to do is a simple web search and you'll find numerous people stating their support for both Gallo and Tor. It's not hard, unless you choose to look away.

"And if Mr. Feder is only speaking for himself, who is this "us" to whom he refers?"

That would be Tor. Were you born obtuse or is it a specially cultivated disability?

"Meanwhile, Peter Grant points out that Feder is lying. Personally, I find Feder's explanation of the boycott to be fascinating, as apparently Irene Gallo was merely defending the Hugo Awards from attack when she described Tor-published books as "bad-to-reprehensible", attacked Tor's customers as "racist" and "misogynistic" and "neo-nazi"."

Wow...talk about "always lying".It was you she was talking about when she said "neo nazi", racist and misogynistic. As well as your supporters. What I've learned is that when someone claims So-and-so always lies....They have great experiences with cultivating lies.

"It's worth pointing out that we are not at war with Tor Books. We are merely asking Macmillan to save Tor Books from the observably self-destructive and unprofessional leadership of three of its senior employees, who have abused Tor's authors and attacked Tor's customers. "

Said the competitor to Tor who knows they can't compete in talent and business sense and who supports the boycott of a competitor, only after desperately trying to steal Hugo's to make a bit more money for himself.

I pointed this out on another website but even if you don't regularly buy Tor books you can still support the boycott by telling people who do or linking to relevant posts (many of the here) on other places.

This comment isn't directed at the regular readers here, you all know this, but I suspect many curious onlookers may check out the comments.

I could, but there are only so many hours in the day, and far more quality stuff being written than I could ever read, so the less time spent sorting through chaff the better. Whenever someone starts a comment with a phrase that tells me with a fair degree of certainty that everything which follows is nonsense, it's much appreciated.

Yeah, Vox is just a lying machine. Remember when he first advanced the idea that the Sci-fi/Fantasy publishing world had turned into a fiefdom of like-minded left-wingers more interested in posturing and ensuring party line political discipline over advancing quality science fiction?

Anyway, please: keep on talking. As the Clash said long ago: give em enough rope.

"Sci-fi/Fantasy publishing world had turned into a fiefdom of like-minded left-wingers more interested in posturing and ensuring party line political discipline over advancing quality science fiction?"

I don't...But I guess there had to be a first time when he was wrong about this.

I hope for your sake you're a woman. I woman I could see emoting all over a thread and confusing lame-ass snarkism with wit and intelligence. If you're a man...wowjustwowthat'snotokaywhattheactualfuck.

"And if Mr. Feder is only speaking for himself, who is this "us" to whom he refers?" -VD

51. FED up "That would be Tor. Were you born obtuse or is it a specially cultivated disability?"

55. Nathan Then Feder is a liar and in violation of Macmillian social media policies and professional standards of conduct, by your own admission.

Bah. One key weakness of the SJW, FED up, is their inability to follow a chain of logic that involves more than one link. This make them so easy to trap. FED up, how do you get this way? Was it years of indoctrination in a government school? Too much TV? Force-fed untested psychotropics as a child? Fluoride in the water? Why is it more important to you to attack than to understand?

"Bah. One key weakness of the SJW, FED up, is their inability to follow a chain of logic that involves more than one link. This make them so easy to trap. "

You keep losing! Why do you bank your head against the wall. You can't beat those who demand social justice. You simply don't have a sizable team or the wit. Plus, your type mainly died out decades ago.

And now you place your hope on a scrawny, runaway with a tendency to emote and be a crybaby.

What is with you people and the use of "lie" in place of "possibly misunderstood".

We've been learning not to put niceness ahead of good judgment and let it be used against us. I used to do that: "Well, I'm 99% sure he's being dishonest, but there's that 1% chance that he's just ignorant, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt." Not anymore. If you lie, you get called a liar. If we judge wrongly and you were just ignorant, then you'll prove us wrong soon enough. Since we were right, you confirmed our judgment in a hurry, which only improves our ability to quickly spot the next lie. Well done.

There is an obvious corollary to "SJWs always lie." They lie to themselves constantly, too. That's why it's so hard to argue with them, or settle on objective facts about anything. Everything they think gets munged through the lie-manufacturing sub-processor in their brains first.

Scintan, how is it a straw man to point out that Vox is misreading Feder.

Because I am not.

"certain scoundrels have declared a boycott of Tor" would be referring to Vox and the other guy. "Tor's unhappy customers" in total are not being referred to as idiots or scoundrels.

No. Hundreds of people have declared a boycott of Tor, many even before I did. Feder is referring to all of those people as scoundrels and idiots, not merely Peter Grant and me. Moreover, he is lying, because no one is criticizing anyone at Tor for "defending the Hugo Awards".

You keep losing! Why do you bank your head against the wall. You can't beat those who demand social justice. You simply don't have a sizable team or the wit. Plus, your type mainly died out decades ago.

And now you place your hope on a scrawny, runaway with a tendency to emote and be a crybaby.

We win this battle every time.---------

Like you won Protein World and Chick-Fil-A and rapegate^n and on and on. And all the gamers died just last year.I'll let someone else fisk all the other lies and delusions packed into the above. From just your few words:

OK. I take Feder to be saying those leaders voicing the call for the boycott, not those "declaring" they will participate. Your mileage may vary. Continue to misunderstand for advantage. It's your thing after all.

Look, I will clarify just like the guy before me. Numerous ilk including me have been calling for a boycott since this began. We then are the scoundrels no matter how you read it and that is more than 2.

OK. I take Feder to be saying those leaders voicing the call for the boycott, not those "declaring" they will participate. Your mileage may vary. Continue to misunderstand for advantage. It's your thing after all.

"You obviously think this is some kind of insult but I am just one poor man. I don't expect to change the world but I don't see any point in giving my enemies money."

Enemies? You're funny. Yes, carry on, sir!!

Hey, I know. Why not call to take the vote away from women. That's what Vox Day would do. Why not declare black folks savages. That's what Vox Day would do. Why not support a Nazi-inspired plan to round up people and save America for white folk. That's what Vox Day would do.

"You're lying. I did not say that. I can name them. I am not going to tell you. The relevant people know."

....Uh, yeah, sure....There's hundreds...yeah, just like I said....Name them? Uh yeah, sure....i can do that....Yeah...that's right I can do that....But, uh, no, no....I uh, I uh, I won't do that....say...uh, I gotta go now.

Yup! I'm quite enjoying it. These people have made traditionalist folks miserable for years. Look at how butthurt and bitch-crying they are and we have just started to organize and get started! It's fantastic.

I'm boycotting Tor and Macmillan. I will be buying extra copies of books I have already purchased of non-Tor authors I appreciate, especially paperback copies of those I have in eBook. For example, I can purchase some eBooks from both Baen and Amazon or Castalia and Amazon.

I will also seek alternative versions from publishers other than Macmillan when I buy text books.

I love it. This is fun. Frustrating the SJW's is one of the great joys of life. Their dark oppressive corrupt bankrupt world is collapsing around them and they know it. Their response? To scream even louder in a useless attempt to drown out the noise of the crumbling structures around them.

Point taken! As someone who loves our dear old English, it was not the age or the obscurity that struck me, but the political usage as a term for a political opponent. It reminded me of the "imperialist mavens" or "barons of greed" type terms one used to encounter in the NYC-published weeklies of the various Marxian sects.

I will admit, I misread "omophagist" as "ophthalmologist," and am now inspired to use "ophthalmologist" as an insult somehow. You can see their dark souls flickering in their shifty, perfect 20/20 vision eyes.

Feder's not really attacking larger-than-expected number of readers, merely a select few.

Even if this were true, who cares? Have the SJWs ever let a target off the hook because he said, "You misunderstood me; I meant...."? Of course not. The standard they've demanded for decades now is that you are judged by the worst possible interpretation of your words and actions. People have been fired or sent to reeducation camp for using the word "niggardly," for cripes sake, and it didn't matter a whit that they meant its true, nothing-to-do-with-race meaning. It's also the basis of disparate impact, the current law of the land: if your testing or hiring method results in incorrect racial ratios, you're assumed to be racist unless you can prove otherwise.

Benefit of the doubt? That's a good one. They set this standard; let them choke on it.

So whats the news on the ip addresses? Just one SJW twat or do we have an infestation? Clearly the increasing juvenile pants wetting on this thread is a sign that at least one of them is seriously loosing their spaghetti over the boycott.

- I for one have been calling for a boycott before Vox (here & on Twitter)

- I vote for "Big Pussies" for the opposition for obvious reasons (they tend to be the kind of people who recycle their faces as cat food after one hypo too many.)

- SJWs, you have no power here. It's hilarious to see them trying their usual tactic of shouting lies often here and fail. It's why I love this place: one of the sanest, most mature places on the internet.

So the question to be answered is "Why?". Assuming there's not a technical issue involved, why did Moshe scrub his Facebook page? Is it to avoid getting in trouble with the brass, or because he already is. in trouble with them?

If I buy a book at Castellia House, can I be certain that it wasn't published at Tor? If CH will continue to sell such books, which... whatever... but just saying... could they keep them in a Tor only section. *splitters!*

Allow some vile faceless minion to earn a face, by setting up an online Tor books database of people willing to give them away to others to crash the sales of still in print works, perhaps even set it up to be a virtual online bookstore as an Amazon re-seller, Tor books for next to nothing.

That would never work economically, but once Tor motivated active resistance, there are all sorts of forms it can take. I would actively give away my old Tor books to help tank their sales...at least until they clean house.

"...I won't buy one until Tor terminates the employment of the insensitive intolerant bigots on their payroll..."

Not enough for me any more. I won't buy one until they publicly announce in an official statement that their only reason for existing is to publish the best quality science fiction and fantasy possible and that political correctness and crusades for social and cultural change have no place in their company.

You keep losing! Why do you bank your head against the wall. You can't beat those who demand social justice. You simply don't have a sizable team or the wit. Plus, your type mainly died out decades ago.

And now you place your hope on a scrawny, runaway with a tendency to emote and be a crybaby.

We win this battle every time.

(laughs) The battle has hardly started. You haven't studied Sun Tzu, have you?

You and Vox day just can't help yourself. It it a matter of enjoying lying or are just like the emotionally little boy who won't stop?

Shut up, Tad.

Ask rather who does not? It is a perfectly cromulent word. I use it.

Mr. Wright's wise words embiggen us all.

Anyone read the manifesto from Roof the murdering racist? Reads like any of the Ilk could have written it.

@Harsh: They haven't read Sun Tzu because he was a cisgendered, heterosexual white male who supported the Patriarchy in America and... what? China, you say? How many years ago? Oh, right, um... Well, I'm sure they'll come up with a perfectly valid reason why.

Each and every time these people open their mouths, all I can think are the opening stanza of my favourite Robert Browning poem:

"My first thought was, he lied in every word, That hoary cripple, with malicious eye Askance to watch the working of his lieOn mine, and mouth scarce able to affordSuppression of the glee, that pursed and scored Its edge, at one more victim gained thereby."

I'm fairly certain that Childe Roland wasn't dealing with SJWs, but a proto-SJW or paleo-SJW could be a possibility. I wonder if his quest for the Tower was simply to read good books. Makes perfect sense actually, given what he has to go through and the manner in which his friends were lost.

Man, jonesing for some reading. I've just put up a $50 dollar order from books at CH. I've been burning through them lately. Just e-books for now. But some of them will have to go to hardcopy. Some hardcover. At least there is still CH. Keep writing though! Probably another $50 next month, and so on. Christmas is when I'll be hitting soft and hard backs.

Personally, I don't see why you're all responding to a misogynist troll who uses such problematic language patterns. As a trans-black, I'm also concerned that "Scorcha" is appropriating my people's localization of "scorcher" for xer screenname.

"Thus, if the boycott were effective enough, it would affect the companies in the pipeline, however minimally"

So, let's start posting customer reviews on Amazon.com and other on line retailers explaining why we are not going to buy Tor or McMillan books through their outlets until these publishers eject the unprofessional members of their staff (insert quotes by the various Tor senior staff to demonstrate your point). Nothing like affecting the supply chain "maximally", and proving there are many people who are annoyed, upset or angered at the behaviours of these SJW's.

Remember the saying "amateurs study tactics, but professionals study logistics", and take them out on another flank.

"So, let's start posting customer reviews on Amazon.com and other on line retailers explaining why we are not going to buy Tor or McMillan books through their outlets until these publishers eject the unprofessional members of their staff (insert quotes by the various Tor senior staff to demonstrate your point). Nothing like affecting the supply chain "maximally", and proving there are many people who are annoyed, upset or angered at the behaviours of these SJW's."

With the greatest of respect, no. Please don't do that. We complain about biased reviews of books from SJW's, so why make ourselves guilty of the same offense? I strongly recommend putting up only genuine reviews dealing with a book as such, and whether or not we liked it, and for what reasons. There's no reason to stoop as low as the enemy.

Counter-boycotts do not work. They don't last as long in duration because it's always easier not to do something than to do it. For instance, if I hate George, it's easier for me to avoid George than it is for someone to visit George every day, or even more often than one normally would. The extra-visits go on for a week, but then, thinking things are better, people stop visiting George and a year later George is very lonely. That's going to be Tor in a year, two years. There is no way that SJWs are willing to buy enough of Tor's books to make up for all the Tor's books I will not buy. It takes ten people buying an extra Tor book to make up for me not buying any in 2015. And it will take another ten in 2016. And so on. Therefore, even f these "buycotts" have a short term effect, it's very stupid policy for Tor to encourage this in its readership. They will lose millions and millions, and since they already exist on the margins of the black--

It's worth pointing out that we are not at war with Tor Books. We are merely asking Macmillan to save Tor Books from the observably self-destructive and unprofessional leadership of three of its senior employees, who have abused Tor's authors and attacked Tor's customers.

Until they clean house I am at war with Tor Books. I'm perfectly willing to see them become the CNN of publishers, scratching their heads wondering why their market share keeps slipping.

Eric, I would target the discussion forums on Amazon, not the reviews.In fact, that might be a good vector to spread the word to other fans that they are, according to Tor, idiotic robotic neo-nazi scoundrels. But I doubt muddying the reviews will accomplish much.

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I was over at File 770 and scrolling through the posts I get the sense that the boycott will be succesfull. Sure a few posts intently mocks the boycott as a non-factor but the fact is the boycott has wide support. The key is to simply stand your ground and not waiver. Any bets on how long before Tor buckles? I will predict bankruptcy in a ball of flame Jan, 2016 ;)

66. Cail Corishev June 20, 2015 3:51 PM If you lie, you get called a liar. If we judge wrongly and you were just ignorant, then you'll prove us wrong soon enough

not to mention which ...if they actually are that stupid, that they're constantly making errors which would be taken as lies by a reasonable observer?then you should be ignoring their opinion because they are irredeemably foolish and stupid rather than ignoring them because they are irredeemably deceitful.