I think life in the UK can be rough, and even rougher than in North America. Life expectancy in Glasgow would be of 59, I heard recently. I could hardly believe it. That is rough like some of the poorest areas of Africa. Otherwise, the single figure of GDP per capita is definitely too short to assess the overall quality of life of a given place. Do you seriously think Canada would be so much more comfy than say Italy, especially northern Italy? Honestly, I wouldn't bet on that when North America is known for being a bit too harsh to their poor yet, which doesn't help to make them so enviable.

I cannot say on Italy as I have not spent a great deal of time there. But in Canada vs the US there is a huge difference on social spending. In addition it depends on where in Canada as most such programs are provincial jurisidction in Canada and not Federal. The main being Health Care (all provinces have full publicly administered health care systems), education and social services.

One example would be post secondary tuition rates. For example Quebec has a model of maintaining the lowest university tuition rates in Canada ($2,700 per year).

In Alberta for example where I grew up, university tuition at top universities is $6,000 per year, however any loans over $20,000 are forgiven by the Province. In addtion, depending on the financial situation of students families, the addtional money is forgiven by the Province. So in my brothers case he ended up with $35,000 of student debt by the time he finished his masters degree but only had to pay back $16,000 as anything over $20,000 is automatically forgiven and then he recived an addtional 20% or $4,000 also forgiven due to family situation. In addtion, the loans were intrest free until 1 year after he graduated and started his job with the interest also being a tax write off. So for 6 years of university he ended up paying about $2,500 per year. While someone with rich parents would have to pay the full $35,000.
Manitoba for example has tuition rates for doctors for example are of $20,000 per year but will forgive up to 100% of the student loans if you stay in Manitoba. For each year after you graduate and stay in Manitoba you get 10% forgiven and once you hit 10 years the entire tuition is written off. Each has is focusing on the needs of the local population and tending to the poor in a different way.

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SHOFEAR- "The other goalie should have to turn in his man card. What a sorry display that was." - March 24, 2008

Miu – That was based on The Economist data. Eurostat data shows the UK unemployment rate to still be higher than Germany, and ranked 6th in the EU-28. Analysing the divergent economic trajectories of the UK and French economies, it is highly plausible that France will have an unemployment rate double that of its old adversary by the end of next year.

Mousquet – The UK economy is most certainly more reactive, a legacy of the structural reforms that took place during and after Thatcher’s tenure to produce a more flexible working environment. It can hardly be described as a utopia I should add, but it is interesting to note that even when the UK economy experienced a substantial shock following the financial crisis, unemployment remained below that of France, a statistic which has been the case over the last decade. I think the ultimate problem in France is that it has yet to fully come to terms with globalisation, and the belief that it can take all of the upside (trade, investment, jobs, etc…) but none of its downsides (transparency, ease of doing business, regulatory tape, etc…).

I doubt many French politicians and commentators back at the height of the bailout of RBS, envisioned that the UK economy would be growing at an annual rate of 3.0% and that France would register two consecutive quarters of no growth, struggling with very high levels of unemployment and be fortunate to meek out 0.3% in 2014.

Analysing the divergent economic trajectories of the UK and French economies, it is highly plausible that France will have an unemployment rate double that of its old adversary by the end of next year.

What language is that??

Quote:

Originally Posted by nito

it is interesting to note that even when the UK economy experienced a substantial shock following the financial crisis, unemployment remained below that of France, a statistic which has been the case over the last decade.

The unemployment rate figure in the UK is artificially brought down by putting lots of unemployed people on incapacity benefits. Once the "incapacitated" people are reintegrated among the unemployed, the unemployment rate of the UK becomes the same as that of France.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nito

I doubt many French politicians and commentators back at the height of the bailout of RBS, envisioned that the UK economy would be growing at an annual rate of 3.0% and that France would register two consecutive quarters of no growth

One swallow doesn't make a summer. The French economy has grown more since 2008 than the British economy. The UK still has to catch up with France.

The unemployment rate figure in the UK is artificially brought down by putting lots of unemployed people on incapacity benefits. Once the "incapacitated" people are reintegrated among the unemployed, the unemployment rate of the UK becomes the same as that of France.

Incorrect. The Office for National Statistics (like Eurostat and many other countries and authorities) uses the International Labour Organisation (a UN agency) definition of unemployment.

As per ILO guidelines, people that are studying, suffer a disability/condition, or look after their children/relatives are classified as being economically inactive and are subsequently not included in unemployment figures because they are out of the labour market.

According to Eurostat, not only does France have a higher unemployment rate and lower employment rate compared to the UK, but as per Q1 2014 figures, the ‘active’ population of France stood at 28.31mn, below the 31.29mn figure for the UK despite the smaller total population.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

One swallow doesn't make a summer. The French economy has grown more since 2008 than the British economy. The UK still has to catch up with France.

The UK economy undoubtedly experienced a severe contraction following the financial crisis, but the last three years have been a drastically different story.

The present narrative is of two completely divergent economies and unless there is a yet-to-materialise seismic economic shift the UK will conceivably overtake the French economy before the end of the decade:
- the UK has been experiencing multiple quarters of strong growth, massive reductions in unemployment and exceptionally strong confidence levels amongst consumers and businesses, etc…
- the French economy has flat lined for the last two quarters, growth has been lacking, PMI data is atrocious, investment is down, unemployment is still far too high, etc…

Incorrect. The Office for National Statistics (like Eurostat and many other countries and authorities) uses the International Labour Organisation (a UN agency) definition of unemployment.

As per ILO guidelines, people that are studying, suffer a disability/condition, or look after their children/relatives are classified as being economically inactive and are subsequently not included in unemployment figures because they are out of the labour market.

Do you realize the loop in your reasoning?

If people are artificially declared as incapacitated, obviously they will not appear in the unemployment figures, and that will respect the ILO definition of unemployment.

What's specific about the UK is the Conservative and Labour administrations have put MANY (between 1 and 2 million) people in the incapacitated category. Those same people in Germany or France would NOT be considered incapacitated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nito

According to Eurostat, not only does France have a higher unemployment rate and lower employment rate compared to the UK, but as per Q1 2014 figures, the ‘active’ population of France stood at 28.31mn, below the 31.29mn figure for the UK despite the smaller total population.

France has a higher employment rate than the UK in the 25-54 age bracket. More young people in France pursue higher education than in the UK, so the employment rate of the under 25 is meaningless. And people in France retire early, with lots of people going on pre-retirement after 54, so again not comparable to the UK. It's the 25-54 age bracket that matters.

As for the total active population, what's surprising? The UK has a very lax immigration policy, with a net migration of +200,000 every year, when France has strict immigration policies and a net migration of only +50,000 per year. It's thus not surprising that the UK has more active people (France has more toddlers and children than the UK, whereas the UK has more people from 25 to 50 than France, due to high net migration). What's surprising is that with a larger active population, the UK doesn't manage to have a larger economy than France.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nito

The present narrative is of two completely divergent economies and unless there is a yet-to-materialise seismic economic shift the UK will conceivably overtake the French economy before the end of the decade:
- the UK has been experiencing multiple quarters of strong growth, massive reductions in unemployment and exceptionally strong confidence levels amongst consumers and businesses, etc…

If people are artificially declared as incapacitated, obviously they will not appear in the unemployment figures, and that will respect the ILO definition of unemployment.

What's specific about the UK is the Conservative and Labour administrations have put MANY (between 1 and 2 million) people in the incapacitated category. Those same people in Germany or France would NOT be considered incapacitated.

You are going to have to clarify with a detailed breakdown who these 1-2mn people are, the conditions they suffer from and whether people suffering identical conditions are classified as unemployed in France and Germany before I can comment further. I would find it a bit harsh that the French state would force people into unemployment if they are suffering from a disability or other condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

France has a higher employment rate than the UK in the 25-54 age bracket. More young people in France pursue higher education than in the UK, so the employment rate of the under 25 is meaningless. And people in France retire early, with lots of people going on pre-retirement after 54, so again not comparable to the UK. It's the 25-54 age bracket that matters.

You can’t use the argument that consecutive British parliaments’ have pushed people into incapacity to lower unemployment levels, and then narrow the age brackets because the French state encourages more people to end up in higher education or forces people to retire earlier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

As for the total active population, what's surprising? The UK has a very lax immigration policy, with a net migration of +200,000 every year, when France has strict immigration policies and a net migration of only +50,000 per year. It's thus not surprising that the UK has more active people (France has more toddlers and children than the UK, whereas the UK has more people from 25 to 50 than France, due to high net migration). What's surprising is that with a larger active population, the UK doesn't manage to have a larger economy than France.

The UK doesn’t have a lax immigration policy; the difference is the allure of EU migrants and the opportunities the country offers.

And as stated in my previous posts, the UK economy is still recovering, but based on recent data, and previously mentioned points, the higher active population is one factor as to why the UK economy is booming and why it will surpass the economy of France.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, yeah. I heard that in 2007 already. We know what happened next.

I don’t get what you mean but this; that somehow the UK is going to re-enter into a financial crisis, and/or that somehow there is no possibility for the UK economy surpassing that of France? Where is the evidence?

The reality is that the UK economy has been growing strongly now for a realisable period of time now and is likely to continue doing so into 2015 and beyond due to the prevailing conditions and confidence. Not only that but subsequent revisions recently unveiled showed that the UK economy experienced a far softer recession (6.0% compared to 7.2%) than was previously thought, and that the UK economy surpassed its financial crisis peak last year (three quarters earlier than previously assumed).

The French economy simply doesn’t have such a rosy economic outlook, what with the economy flat-lining, a stumbling deficit reduction strategy, and the poor sector indicators & confidence levels

Contrast the latest revised quarterly economic growth for the UK (0.9%) with the potential 1.0% annual growth for the French economy in all of 2015. It’s worlds apart, and if anything the convergence point is drawing nearer.

This graph shows the evolution of the GDP per capita in Germany, France, the UK, and Spain every year since 2007, based on the latest figures published this week. I've also added the United States for comparison. This is the evolution of *real* GDP per capita, i.e. after inflation is deducted.

In 2013, the average inhabitant of Germany was 4.4% better off than in 2007, and the average inhabitant of the USA was 1.0% better off than in 2007. The average inhabitant of France was 2.2% worse off than in 2007, while the average inhabitant of the UK was 5.5% worse off, and the average inhabitant of Spain was 8.6% worse off.

I didn´t know the UK was lagging so much behind in Europe, in fact I thought it was leading the economic growth even before germany, btw... how is it that germany had a smaller gdp contraction in 2009?, apart from all the good news in recent years, i thought that germany was the country with the biggest gdp contraction in that year

^ Uh! Hey, were you living under a heavier rock, in a cave or something? Germany's been all over the place for a decade or so. Gerhard Schröder or whatever the weird spelling of his crazy name butchered entire Europe. Hell, I wish that guy could've spoken French. Now their easy conservative Angela is collecting all the yummy fruits of smarter and braver Gerhard... Politics. We all know about this over here now. The local media has been constantly hammered it out like we're so tired of it. That's the fault of our pathetic retarded left wing and their legions of useless sorry technocrats and corporatist little officials hidden in their boring depressing offices that are still 50 years late on the German left wing. It's a well-known fact now.

I'll have no mercy on them.

__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
I like bass. Give me some.

^ Uh! Hey, were you living under a heavier rock, in a cave or something? Germany's been all over the place for a decade or so. Gerhard Schröder or whatever the weird spelling of his crazy name butchered entire Europe. Hell, I wish that guy could've spoken French. Now their easy conservative Angela is collecting all the yummy fruits of smarter and braver Gerhard... Politics. We all know about this over here now. The local media has been constantly hammered it out like we're so tired of it. That's the fault of our pathetic retarded left wing and their legions of useless sorry technocrats and corporatist little officials hidden in their boring depressing offices that are still 50 years late on the German left wing. It's a well-known fact now.

If you look at the table, germany experienced -5,6% growth in 2009, UK -5,3, France -2,9. (the graphic is wrong?), the UK the next years grew much faster.
It´s not all about politics, the left and right in germany are not too different to other countries in europe, they have a different culture and highly developed tech companies backing the economy,. In fact... if it wasn´t for some germany´s politicians they could be economically much stronger in Europe without the messy euro, I´m not sure if that´s something european countries should be happy about or not

I didn´t know the UK was lagging so much behind in Europe, in fact I thought it was leading the economic growth even before germany, btw... how is it that germany had a smaller gdp contraction in 2009?, apart from all the good news in recent years, i thought that germany was the country with the biggest gdp contraction in that year

The UK experienced a severe contraction following the financial crisis, but revisions and solid growth figures have seen the picture change rather dramatically. According to the IMF, in 2014 the UK managed growth of 2.8% which meant it was the fastest growing G7 economy; for contrast Germany expanded by 1.5% and France by a meagre 0.4%.

The following chart shows the GDP recovery of the G7 since the crisis.

One thing to note is that New Brisavoine’s data is focused on GDP per capita, so population growth (or stagnation) plays an important part in each respective country’s performance.

I haven’t reviewed the latest population and economic data combined, but it could be conceivable that with the strong economic growth of the UK and the ongoing poor performance of France, that the UK has or will later this year surpass France in GDP per capita when referring to 2007 as the base year for comparisons. We do know that since the start of the century, France has lagged behind its peers.

Britain is overtaking France as Europe’s second largest economy “right now”, according to a leading think-tank, even as UK growth is expected to slow this year.

The National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) believes Britain will expand by 2.5pc this year. While this is lower than its forecast of 2.9pc three months ago, and last year’s growth of 2.8pc, the think-tank believes France will grow by just 1.3pc this year and 1.6pc in 2016

Author: Szu Ping Chan

Publication: The UK is overtaking France to become Europe's second largest economy, according to influential think tank

mm, so what? Friend, it was expected. We knew it long before you did. Now our country, and more precisely my hometown is the shelter of the immigrants that your sorry wealthy nation is rejecting. No problem, they'll make our tomorrow wealth, and you'll be running after us, just the way you always did. Do you seriously think you still can surprise us? No. Obviously, you can't.

__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
I like bass. Give me some.

I think life in the UK can be rough, and even rougher than in North America. Life expectancy in Glasgow would be of 59, I heard recently. I could hardly believe it. That is rough like some of the poorest areas of Africa.

The City of Glasgow has had the lowest life expectancy in the UK for many years, but it isn't that low, it was around 75.6 years a couple of years ago, 72.6 for men, 78.5 for women.

From the latest ONS figures for 2010-12

Quote:

•The inequality in life expectancy between the local areas with the highest and lowest figures decreased for only males at birth between 2000–02 and 2010–12.
•The majority of local areas in Scotland (72%) were in the fifth of local areas in the UK with the lowest male and female life expectancy at birth in 2010–12. Conversely, only 15% of local areas in England were in this group.
•None of the local areas in Scotland and Wales and only one in Northern Ireland were in the fifth of areas with the highest male and female life expectancy at birth in UK. In contrast, a quarter of local areas in England were in this group.•In 2010–12, male life expectancy at birth was highest in East Dorset (82.9 years) and lowest in Glasgow City (72.6 years).
•For females, life expectancy at birth was highest in Purbeck (86.6 years) and lowest in Glasgow City (78.5 years).
•Approximately 91% of baby boys in East Dorset and 94% of girls in Purbeck will reach their 65th birthday, if 2010–12 mortality rates persist throughout their lifetime. The comparable figures for Glasgow City are 75% for baby boys and 85% for baby girls

This map shows at a glance where Europe's richest cities and regions are

So, this is pretty cool: a map showing the size of every local economy in Europe.

This one graphic contains myriad different stories. But by far the most obvious is quite how much of the European economy is concentrated in the area that is, faintly nauseatingly, known as the “blue banana”: the arc of urbanisation stretching from Liverpool to Rome, covering England, the Benelux countries, western Germany and northern Italy.

[...]

The map uses Eurostat data, and despite initial appearances, it doesn't just show cities at all. In fact, it shows every “NUTS 3” region (don’t ask) across the whole of Europe. On much of the continent that's the equivalent of a city, or a county, but in some places it isn’t.

[...]

As to what the boxes themselves mean, their size represents the size of their economy, not the size of the population (although there is some correlation). Darker boxes are richer than the European average; lighter ones are poorer.

Mix it all together, and here's what you get.

A few observations...

1. Certain cities leap out at you: Madrid, Barcelona, Rome and Athens in the south; Dublin, Stockholm, Berlin and Helsinki further north.

2. Other cities, though, look more like thick clusters of boxes. The Île de France region, which is basically Greater Paris with a bit added on, contains no fewer than eight different NUTS 3 regions; consequently it looks like a whole mess of blue. There's something similar going on with Vienna (albeit on a smaller scale).

3. In other areas though – in England, the Benelux, the Rhine Valley - it's surprisingly difficult to pick out individual cities. Partly that's a quirk of the structure of local government, and how (still not over this name) the NUTS work. Partly, too, it’s because these places are so densely populated all the boxes are piled on top of one another.

4. By and large, cities are richer than their hinterlands. Compare the cities of southern Europe to the smaller, lighter boxes around them. The most extreme example is probably Athens, which looks like an economic giant, surrounded by midgets.

5. The economic divisions in certain countries look pretty bloody pronounced. Britain is an obvious example – compare the dark cluster around London with the paleness of Cornwall, or the contrast between Aberdeen and Fife. But there's a north-south divide at work in Italy, too, and parts of East Germany are still a long way behind the country's rich west and south.

6. The Nordic countries are really, really rich.

The big story, though, is that economically vibrant arc across the middle of the continent. It’s worth noting that the population density of Europe looks like this:

I can't tell how accurate that is, but it sounds close to the actual facts. Those maps show France poorer than it should be, poorer than most her northern neighbors, which is the truth we all know about.

__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
I like bass. Give me some.

So yeah, this above shows an obvious and strong correlation between population density and produced wealth, that's no secret on here.

I think it also shows the relative inefficiency of systems that have traditionally overly centralized public administrations and economic activities on single spots (France and the UK), compared to more flexible and competitive federalism (Germany, Switzerland).

The major economic performance in there is that of Germany that managed fairly well their reunification. Demography is yet another story though.

As usual in our modern era and for various reasons, the main underperformances and disappointments come from what you could call a "Latin block" or whatever it may be on one hand, that would encompass Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and Greece on the other. All those closely connected to one another and sharing a lot culturally and economically (e.g. France is quite involved in the Greek economy and behavior) are not accountable enough in their managements, thus too slow. That's not just a cliché, it's a damn proven fact.

That's it, eh.

__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
I like bass. Give me some.

mm, so what? Friend, it was expected. We knew it long before you did. Now our country, and more precisely my hometown is the shelter of the immigrants that your sorry wealthy nation is rejecting. No problem, they'll make our tomorrow wealth, and you'll be running after us, just the way you always did. Do you seriously think you still can surprise us? No. Obviously, you can't.

According to Eurostat (http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...12_YB14_II.png) the UK absorbed 50% more immigrants than France despite having a similar population to France but less than half the land area. It doesn’t make sense to have uncontrollable levels of immigration that erodes social cohesion and integration. Not sure what to make of your other ramblings...

Don't bother thinking about that, you're just supposed to make nothing of it. That was arrogantly and deliberately teasing your colleague to make him understand, if you guys still want rivalry too much, that's all you'll get from us.

Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, I'm rather pleased by your country's shape that would get a little bit better at the moment. That's what some say, so it may be true. Um, you know, I have no reason to hate you anyway. Every time I went to the UK, I felt welcome. But then I'm just a good boy. Not everyone is that good gentle boy...

Now regarding immigrants, I think you guys only barely caught up on us. Did you take a look at our contemporary society? We're getting closer and closer to look like an awful mess of a melting pot. Racists won't like it, but that is nevertheless great, right?

__________________
psst... A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. (John 13:34)
I like bass. Give me some.

For me, the UK should stay in the EU, an exit would be a lose-lose situation, personally I´m afraid of an EU without the british common sense and pragmatism. The Euro project has already shown how fragile and senseless could be forcing an union of different interests

I can't tell how accurate that is, but it sounds close to the actual facts. Those maps show France poorer than it should be, poorer than most her northern neighbors, which is the truth we all know about.