I hope never.Double action semi pistols don't need a manual safety anymore than double action revolvers.The double action is the safety.For those who've never been in a SD situation it's difficult for them to really understand. Someone has told them just practice disengaging that manual safety so you'll disengage it whenthe perp is at garlic breath distance and everything happens in one to two seconds.All you'll do is point and pull the trigger!Been there more than once.Poli Viejo

Originally posted by Horn:I hope never.Double action semi pistols don't need a manual safety anymore than double action revolvers.The double action is the safety.For those who've never been in a SD situation it's difficult for them to really understand. Someone has told them just practice disengaging that manual safety so you'll disengage it whenthe perp is at garlic breath distance and everything happens in one to two seconds.All you'll do is point and pull the trigger!Been there more than once.Poli Viejo

Disengage when drawing, just like a 1911 or similar SA. It’s a no brainer.

If you chose not to carry a gun with a manual safety, that's your prerogative. But carrying a gun with one is at least perfectly valid, and likely the smarter choice.

Having a manual safety becomes part of a training regime. You drill using it into your muscle memory, so every time you present the gun to the target it comes off. People have been doing this successfully for over a hundred years now.

Originally posted by Horn:I hope never.Double action semi pistols don't need a manual safety anymore than double action revolvers.The double action is the safety.For those who've never been in a SD situation it's difficult for them to really understand. Someone has told them just practice disengaging that manual safety so you'll disengage it whenthe perp is at garlic breath distance and everything happens in one to two seconds.All you'll do is point and pull the trigger!Been there more than once.Poli Viejo

Originally posted by BBMW:This is so incredibly wrong. You want an example of why? See below.

If you chose not to carry a gun with a manual safety, that's your prerogative. But carrying a gun with one is at least perfectly valid, and likely the smarter choice.

Having a manual safety becomes part of a training regime. You drill using it into your muscle memory, so every time you present the gun to the target it comes off. People have been doing this successfully for over a hundred years now.

Originally posted by Horn:I hope never.Double action semi pistols don't need a manual safety anymore than double action revolvers.The double action is the safety.For those who've never been in a SD situation it's difficult for them to really understand. Someone has told them just practice disengaging that manual safety so you'll disengage it whenthe perp is at garlic breath distance and everything happens in one to two seconds.All you'll do is point and pull the trigger!Been there more than once.Poli Viejo

My bet that was a single action auto, and adjusting the pants holster he knocked off the safety and then when he bent over somehow the trigger got pulled.

Two things to be learned here for me, give up single action autos for inside the pants carry, and never, ever appendix carry.

Other then that striker fired and double action only pistols are no more likely to go off by accident then a revolver, you have to pull the trigger!

If those who insist that "training" will insure you'll disengage a safety in the typical SD situation ___that takes place at garlic breath distance and instantly ...... Did they actually experience such a situation? I don't know if Smith & Wesson published the exact numbers but__it was stated that almost all LE officers preferred no manual safety on those sold by Smith & Wesson. There's a reason___Before semi-autos became the issued side arms for a hundred years most LE from local to federal carried 38 Spl Revolvers. They had no manual safety. When it happens suddenly and close up ____and that's the usual situation from other LE officers like myself who've been there...you point and pull the trigger. (Double action or whatever)Maybe the discussion should have been among only we who have been there?However, like the one poster mentioning choosing what to carry for someone else is like choosing a wife for them.... one must make this choice to suitonly themselves. Then, it seems 50% of marriages end in divorce. Bad choice? Too late?One ends in court. The other is more final.You're betting your life in the latter.Stay safeAgain, your choice and I sincerely wish all well.Poli Viejo

Originally posted by BBMW:This is so incredibly wrong. You want an example of why? See below.

If you chose not to carry a gun with a manual safety, that's your prerogative. But carrying a gun with one is at least perfectly valid, and likely the smarter choice.

Having a manual safety becomes part of a training regime. You drill using it into your muscle memory, so every time you present the gun to the target it comes off. People have been doing this successfully for over a hundred years now.

Originally posted by Horn:I hope never.Double action semi pistols don't need a manual safety anymore than double action revolvers.The double action is the safety.For those who've never been in a SD situation it's difficult for them to really understand. Someone has told them just practice disengaging that manual safety so you'll disengage it whenthe perp is at garlic breath distance and everything happens in one to two seconds.All you'll do is point and pull the trigger!Been there more than once.Poli Viejo

My bet that was a single action auto, and adjusting the pants holster he knocked off the safety and then when he bent over somehow the trigger got pulled.

Two things to be learned here for me, give up single action autos for inside the pants carry, and never, ever appendix carry.

Other then that striker fired and double action only pistols are no more likely to go off by accident then a revolver, you have to pull the trigger!

Originally posted by Horn:If those who insist that "training" will insure you'll disengage a safety in the typical SD situation ___that takes place at garlic breath distance and instantly ...... Did they actually experience such a situation? I don't know if Smith & Wesson published the exact numbers but__it was stated that almost all LE officers preferred no manual safety on those sold by Smith & Wesson. There's a reason___Before semi-autos became the issued side arms for a hundred years most LE from local to federal carried 38 Spl Revolvers. They had no manual safety. When it happens suddenly and close up ____and that's the usual situation from other LE officers like myself who've been there...you point and pull the trigger. (Double action or whatever)Maybe the discussion should have been among only we who have been there?However, like the one poster mentioning choosing what to carry for someone else is like choosing a wife for them.... one must make this choice to suitonly themselves. Then, it seems 50% of marriages end in divorce. Bad choice? Too late?One ends in court. The other is more final.You're betting your life in the latter.Stay safeAgain, your choice and I sincerely wish all well.Poli Viejo

Originally posted by BBMW:This is so incredibly wrong. You want an example of why? See below.

If you chose not to carry a gun with a manual safety, that's your prerogative. But carrying a gun with one is at least perfectly valid, and likely the smarter choice.

Was there ever a follow-up on what they think happened?

First of all, why had he taken the gun out of the holster, and why was he handling it in that situation around other people?

Second of all, it looks like he may have gotten a fold or other part of his undergarment inserted with the gun into the holster, and when he bent over the trigger was pulled; triggers don't just pull themselves, and a proper holster does not allow for the trigger to be accessed, or pressured if you would, in that manner. What other possible explanation could there be? Was the holster defective?

I disagree with your opinion of it likely being the smarter choice. This example does not support that from my standpoint. It is, however, a good example of what not to do- take your gun out of the holster in public (or wherever he was) for any reason once it's holstered and in place.

Any time there's an ND/AD someone did something wrong, either in gun handle, equipment selection, equipment design, etc.. However, if the gun involved has a manual safety, to get a the gun to go off it takes two mistakes. One is taking the safety off or not putting it on, and some other error. That fact that two things have to go wrong vastly reduces the chances of any kind of unintentional discharge.

quote:

Originally posted by AH.74:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:This is so incredibly wrong. You want an example of why? See below.

If you chose not to carry a gun with a manual safety, that's your prerogative. But carrying a gun with one is at least perfectly valid, and likely the smarter choice.

Was there ever a follow-up on what they think happened?

First of all, why had he taken the gun out of the holster, and why was he handling it in that situation around other people?

Second of all, it looks like he may have gotten a fold or other part of his undergarment inserted with the gun into the holster, and when he bent over the trigger was pulled; triggers don't just pull themselves, and a proper holster does not allow for the trigger to be accessed, or pressured if you would, in that manner. What other possible explanation could there be? Was the holster defective?

I disagree with your opinion of it likely being the smarter choice. This example does not support that from my standpoint. It is, however, a good example of what not to do- take your gun out of the holster in public (or wherever he was) for any reason once it's holstered and in place.

Originally posted by BBMW:How much does your average cop actually train with his gun?

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:If those who insist that "training" will insure you'll disengage a safety in the typical SD situation ___that takes place at garlic breath distance and instantly ...... Did they actually experience such a situation? I don't know if Smith & Wesson published the exact numbers but__it was stated that almost all LE officers preferred no manual safety on those sold by Smith & Wesson. There's a reason___Before semi-autos became the issued side arms for a hundred years most LE from local to federal carried 38 Spl Revolvers. They had no manual safety. When it happens suddenly and close up ____and that's the usual situation from other LE officers like myself who've been there...you point and pull the trigger. (Double action or whatever)Maybe the discussion should have been among only we who have been there?However, like the one poster mentioning choosing what to carry for someone else is like choosing a wife for them.... one must make this choice to suitonly themselves. Then, it seems 50% of marriages end in divorce. Bad choice? Too late?One ends in court. The other is more final.You're betting your life in the latter.Stay safeAgain, your choice and I sincerely wish all well.Poli Viejo

Very little unless you do it on your own in Chicago, I was on the Chicago Police Dept.for 31 years(Homicide Detective) we were required to shoot for qualification once a year, nothing allowed for practice at all.

Originally posted by Brian87:Sorry, but the Sig P365 is not a double action pistol. It is a striker fired pistol, each pull of the trigger is the same. Single/double action pistols typically have a hammer.

I had a Ruger P89M that was DAO, no single action at all. I guess you could state that the P365 isn't a double action pistol because it is pre-cocked while in battery, yet it operates the same way a DAO does, with the same amount of trigger pull each time to make it go off!

Originally posted by BBMW:Any time there's an ND/AD someone did something wrong, either in gun handle, equipment selection, equipment design, etc.. However, if the gun involved has a manual safety, to get a the gun to go off it takes two mistakes. One is taking the safety off or not putting it on, and some other error. That fact that two things have to go wrong vastly reduces the chances of any kind of unintentional discharge.

quote:

Originally posted by AH.74:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:This is so incredibly wrong. You want an example of why? See below.

If you chose not to carry a gun with a manual safety, that's your prerogative. But carrying a gun with one is at least perfectly valid, and likely the smarter choice.

Was there ever a follow-up on what they think happened?

First of all, why had he taken the gun out of the holster, and why was he handling it in that situation around other people?

Second of all, it looks like he may have gotten a fold or other part of his undergarment inserted with the gun into the holster, and when he bent over the trigger was pulled; triggers don't just pull themselves, and a proper holster does not allow for the trigger to be accessed, or pressured if you would, in that manner. What other possible explanation could there be? Was the holster defective?

I disagree with your opinion of it likely being the smarter choice. This example does not support that from my standpoint. It is, however, a good example of what not to do- take your gun out of the holster in public (or wherever he was) for any reason once it's holstered and in place.

Once again, in my opinion, just mine, not only is appendix carry uncomfortable, it can be dangerous as well!

I can't speak for the "average" cop, but this cop shoots 2-300 rounds at least once a week. And I don't like manual safeties, for the same reasons brought up by Horn. In a tense, high-stress situation, fine motor skills go out the window. And while you CAN train for it, simpler is still better.

I will not carry a handgun with a manual safety for defensive purposes...and this has been reinforced by every law enforcement trainer I've ever trained under. I don't care if other folks want the option, but I disagree that it's "safer" or "better." And I'll fight that idea...not because I care what other folks choose to carry, but because the last thing I want is that notion becoming mainstream and police administrators getting ahold of it and forcing us to carry guns with features that I believe are a safety risk to officers.

Not even remotely comparable. The pre-cocked striker guns like the 365 and Glocks have a 5 to 6 pound trigger pull. A double action revolver has a 12 pound trigger pull.

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:I hope never.Double action semi pistols don't need a manual safety anymore than double action revolvers.The double action is the safety.For those who've never been in a SD situation it's difficult for them to really understand. Someone has told them just practice disengaging that manual safety so you'll disengage it whenthe perp is at garlic breath distance and everything happens in one to two seconds.All you'll do is point and pull the trigger!Been there more than once.Poli Viejo

Originally posted by Horn:If those who insist that "training" will insure you'll disengage a safety in the typical SD situation ___that takes place at garlic breath distance and instantly ...... Did they actually experience such a situation? I don't know if Smith & Wesson published the exact numbers but__it was stated that almost all LE officers preferred no manual safety on those sold by Smith & Wesson. There's a reason___Before semi-autos became the issued side arms for a hundred years most LE from local to federal carried 38 Spl Revolvers. They had no manual safety. When it happens suddenly and close up ____and that's the usual situation from other LE officers like myself who've been there...you point and pull the trigger. (Double action or whatever)Maybe the discussion should have been among only we who have been there?However, like the one poster mentioning choosing what to carry for someone else is like choosing a wife for them.... one must make this choice to suitonly themselves. Then, it seems 50% of marriages end in divorce. Bad choice? Too late?One ends in court. The other is more final.You're betting your life in the latter.Stay safeAgain, your choice and I sincerely wish all well.Poli Viejo

You can’t equate the average guy and what he may encounter with LEOs who can be in harms way dozens of times in a shift. Most SD situations don’t take place instantaneously, as you suggest.

To argue that a safety has no place in CCW is to argue that all 1911 type guns are unworthy, let alone DA/SA types with optional safeties.

It does come down to training and preparedness. No one can be prepared for every scenario. Maybe everyone who carries should carry a BUG too?

I don’t begrudge anyone who wants to carry a glock with a minus connector. But in the same vein I frankly don’t understand how some in the “safeties are stupid” camp can just dismiss the very idea of safety-engaged carry, as if those who do it maybe just aren’t quite as knowledgeable or well-trained as those who carry pistols without a manual safety.

I don't disagree with you, but the carry method is somewhat beside the point. Shooting yourself down the outer thigh might be less life threatening than shooting yourself in the groin. But shooting yourself is always bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Chazman1946:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:Any time there's an ND/AD someone did something wrong, either in gun handle, equipment selection, equipment design, etc.. However, if the gun involved has a manual safety, to get a the gun to go off it takes two mistakes. One is taking the safety off or not putting it on, and some other error. That fact that two things have to go wrong vastly reduces the chances of any kind of unintentional discharge.

quote:

Originally posted by AH.74:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:This is so incredibly wrong. You want an example of why? See below.

If you chose not to carry a gun with a manual safety, that's your prerogative. But carrying a gun with one is at least perfectly valid, and likely the smarter choice.

Was there ever a follow-up on what they think happened?

First of all, why had he taken the gun out of the holster, and why was he handling it in that situation around other people?

Second of all, it looks like he may have gotten a fold or other part of his undergarment inserted with the gun into the holster, and when he bent over the trigger was pulled; triggers don't just pull themselves, and a proper holster does not allow for the trigger to be accessed, or pressured if you would, in that manner. What other possible explanation could there be? Was the holster defective?

I disagree with your opinion of it likely being the smarter choice. This example does not support that from my standpoint. It is, however, a good example of what not to do- take your gun out of the holster in public (or wherever he was) for any reason once it's holstered and in place.

Once again, in my opinion, just mine, not only is appendix carry uncomfortable, it can be dangerous as well!