If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You will have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

My first Homebrew Class, and if not my first post, then one of them. Thoughts?

Please note that this is not intended to be a variant Sorcerer, but rather a unique class which lore-wise draws on the same type of power. The difference is that he never really learned to use his power for anything but making his life easier.

Domestic Sorcerer

“I didn't realize that I could use my abilities to give myself this much of an advantage. Then some of my friends and I got drunk, thought attacking a troll was a good plan...” Gill Meybreck, Domestic Sorcerer

|Domestic Metamagic 9/day|6|6|5|5|5|4|[/table]Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Domestic Sorcerer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.

Spells
A Domestic Sorcerer's spell casting is Charisma based. To learn or cast a spell, he must have Charisma equal to or greater than the spell's level plus ten. DCs on his spells are Charisma based. They gain bonus spells from Charisma as well. As with Bards, they only learn spells if they have the bonus spells in that level.
A Domestic Sorcerer casts spells he knows spontaneously, as a Bard or Sorcerer does. His spells are arcane by nature, and therefor subject to spell failure from armor when using spells with somatic components. The exception to this is that a Domestic Sorcerer who has earned Light Armor Proficiency from a feat or from a different class. In such a case, a Domestic Sorcerer can cast spells wearing Light Armor with no penalty. This benefit does not apply to any other armor type, or to shields, even if the Domestic Sorcerer is proficient in their use.

Cantrips
A Domestic Sorcerer begins the game knowing 4 Cantrips. These are drawn from the Domestic Sorcerer Cantrip list. He can cast these Cantrips awill. They fuel his higher level spells in place of material components. As such, he cannot cast a higher level spell for which he does not know the appropriate Cantrip. Cantrips otherwise count as 0 level spells. No more than one Cantrip effect can be active at any time. The casting time of other spells does not include the casting time of the Cantrip.

Magic Sense (Su)
Domestic Sorcerers are well attuned to the energies involved in magic use, despite knowing little about the nature of magic. Whenever a magical effect is in play within 30ft of the Domestic Sorcerer, he is able to recognize its presence by a tingling sensation in his skin. He is not normally able to recognize power or type of magic, or discern location. Extremely powerful magic, such as Major or Minor Artifacts or Epic Spells, may be noticeable from farther away, and may produce a stronger tingling sensation.

At 5th Level, the range increases to 60ft, and he can more accurately discern the power of the effect
(see Detect Magic for more information on power of effects).

At 13th Level, he is also able to concentrate on any person to determine whether they have spells available. Any caster who has spells prepared, or any spontaneous caster with unused spell slots, will register as such. The power of the person is as follows: casters with four maximum spell levels register as weak casters, casters with six maximum spell levels register as moderate casters, and casters with nine maximum spell levels register as powerful casters.

Intense Energy
Though unrefined, a Domestic Sorcerer's power is similar to that of an adventuring sorcerer. When he casts spells, his energy registers to Detect Magic and similar effects as spells of one and a half times their level, round down. Greater Arcane Sight will show unused spell slots the same way. Effects such as the Domestic Sorcerer's Magic Sense will show him as being a nine level caster rather than a six level caster.

At sixth level, count his caster level as being one higher for the purposes of power, range, duration, and caster level checks. This improves to +2 at level 13, and to +3 at level 17. All spell DC's are also increased by this amount.

At tenth level, these bonus levels can exceed the maximum effect of a spell. For example, a spell which does 1d6/2 caster level damage (max 5d6) would do 6d6 at level 10, 7d6 at level 13, and 8d6 at level 17. This ability does not allow the Domestic Sorcerer's normal caster level to exceed the effect, only his Intense Energy levels.
Rapid Consumption
Beginning at level three, Domestic Sorcerers can cast and consume a Cantrip as part of the casting of the end spell. However, this ability is tiring, and he cannot use this ability for 1d4+spell level rounds after doing so. At level 7, he may subtract his Charisma bonus from this time. At level 12, he can use this ability without interrupting a currently active Cantrip. At level 15, he is able to do this effect without becoming tired.

Bonus Feats
Whenever marked on the chart, the Domestic Sorcerer may take any Metamagic, Item Creation, or skill based feat (Skill Focus, Stealthy, etc.) that he qualifies for.

Domestic Metamagic (Su)
The Domestic Sorcerer uses Metamagic differently than other spellcasters. When using a Metamagic Feat, he applies the effect to a Cantrip as he casts it, rather than the later spell. When he consumes the Cantrip in a higher level spell, the Metamagic effect is also applied to that spell. He can apply Metamagic levels per day as indicated in the chart. Unlike other spontaneous casters, he does not take extra time to apply Metamagic, and can use the Quicken Spell Metamagic feat, though it works slightly differently. The Cantrip itself is not Quickened, but cast as per normal. When he then chooses to expend it on a better spell, that spell is Quickened. Because of how this Metamagic works, he cannot use the Heighten Spell Metamagic Feat, and the final spell level is not increased in level. This means that he can apply Metamagic Feats even to his highest level spells.

With a thought
Sometimes when a Domestic Sorcerer of exceptional power wants to do something, he just does it. With this ability, he can use the following spells as if they were Cantrips: Shield, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Floating Disk, Disguise Self, Animate Rope, Erase, and Spectral Hand. He gains all of these spells regardless of whether he knew them previously. If he already knew one or more of these spells, he can learn a new spell in its place.

Also, he can use Wish as a Spell like ability once per week, applying any material, experience point, or other costs as usual.

Special
Domestic Sorcerers cannot multiclass normally into Sorcerers. Instead, when they first take a level of Sorcerer, they begin to progress using normal Sorcerer spells. Take as the highest level they are able to match the spells per day in. A 6th level Domestic Sorcerer then takes one level in Sorcerer. The Domestic Sorcerer levels give one 3rd level spell, and two 2nd level spells. Their Domestic Sorcerer levels would count as 4 levels of Sorcerer, since they are able to produce three 2nd level spells in a day, the same as a fourth level Sorcerer. Their Domestic Sorcerer spells henceforth count as Sorcerer spells of the same level, both for spells known and for spells per day.

For all other purposes related to feats, Prestige Classes, or anything else, a Domestic Sorcerer counts as a Sorcerer of the level determined by that method.

Fluff

Spoiler

Show

Domestic Sorcerers in the World

Race
Any race with the ability to use magic naturally can be a Domestic Sorcerer. Races which are discriminating against mages, however, usually will hide their innate abilities.

Attitude
Domestic Sorcerers don't plan to be adventurers. They are generally perfectly comfortable with their normal lives as farmers, cooks, blacksmiths, innkeepers, or whatever other mundane job they choose to follow. Neither are they unaware of their innate magical abilities, rather, they use them to simplify life. Starting the fire to keep warm. Picking up that book or that bowl they need from across the room, rather than getting up. Most Domestic Sorcerers are only going to be first level, and may not even know anything other than cantrips.

Adventuring
As such, Domestic Sorcerers who become adventurers must have some drastic change of heart. Maybe a loved one has died unjustly, or maybe they were attacked by a monster and developed a liking for the thrill of battle. Once they get out in the world, they begin using their Cantrips in new ways.

Notable Domestic Sorcerers
Domestic Sorcerers who become famous are not noted as being any different from other sorcerers.

Organizations
There are no organizations for Domestic Sorcerers.

Domestic Sorcerers and Other Adventurers
Domestic Sorcerers are even less unrefined in magical ability than usual Sorcerers. Where a Sorcerer becomes aware of their magical abilities, and refines them to a certain degree, learning how to bend this and that magic using their natural gifts, a Domestic Sorcerer lacks even that basic level of training. They just will, and it happens. Despite this, the two classes get along well generally, with Sorcerers who travel with their Domestic brethren often taking the role of mentor in their magical abilities.

Wizards tend to view Domestic Sorcerers little differently than other Sorcerers, though either the unstreamlined nature of Domestic magic or their skills in other areas can color the Wizard's view.

Most other classes view the Domestic Sorcerer not as a typical spellcaster, but as a typical citizen of wherever they come from. Bards occasionally find some kinship with the spontaneous nature of their magic, and Domestic Sorcerers often find great enjoyment in the Bard's performances.

Adaptation
Make note of how magic in your world works before allowing this class. Tweak as necessary.

Multiclassing
Many Domestic Sorcerers who begin adventuring will take training in a second class at some point. Those who don't often become artists with their magic, developing their own unique and original ways to use magic.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Ok, Cantrip time. Other spells will be drawn from Wiz/Sor and Bard lists, with occasionally altered cast times, ranges, and/or components; as well as more custom spells (ranged touch attack fire spell at 1st level). Some of the less refined high level spells (Power Words, [Lesser] Wish, etc.) May be available as 6th level spell slots, but unavailable to learn until the appropriate level. (6th level spells take as much energy for these guys as anywhere from 6 to 9th level does for a traditional Sorcerer, so there's no reason they wouldn't be able to produce these effects, other than lack of knowledge.)

The caster gains the ability to manipulate unattended objects or objects on his person weighing up to five pounds. He can, as a swift action, designate the target of this spell (usually by gesturing to it), drawing it to his person. Once at his person, he can move it as if he were holding it, so long as it remains within arms reach of his body, or within 6 inches of his hand if he extends his arm. He can use this spell to throw the object, attack with the object, or do any other thing, but if it leaves his person, he must recall the object. The effect remains on the caster until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed.

The Caster slightly alters one object or person. He must speak aloud the changes he wishes to bring about (in place of a verbal component). He cannot change the material of the object or the height, weight, or major physical attributes of a person. When used on an object, he can change its color, slightly alter size (up to 10% change), and if the object is easily shaped with the hands, such as clay, he can reshape it. When used on a person, he can make slight changes, such as hair color, adding or hiding scars, making a nose appear to be broken, and eye color. When used in conjunction with a normal disguise check, this applies a +2 bonus. The effect lasts until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed. Non-magical objects altered by this spell do not return to their normal state even after the effect ends. A spell which consumes this Cantrip must affect the the target of this Cantrip.

The caster's dominant hand becomes wreathed in flame. He can use it to make melee touch attacks. This fire works exactly as mundane fire, roughly equivalent to a torch, in all ways except these: the fire does not burn the caster or his possessions, unless the caster wishes it to; the fire requires no fuel source other than the caster's magic; the fire cannot be used as a material component or target of another spell. The effect lasts until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed.

The caster compresses air into a small, but sharp, knife. This knife must be held for the effect to be maintained. It works as a dagger of the caster's size for purposes of damage, and is susceptible to Armor Bonuses to Armor class. The air which forms the knife becomes visible in the process, by collecting dust motes and other small particles as the air compresses. The knife is also unbreakable, and will never lose its edge. The knife lasts until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed, or until the caster ceases to hold it.

The caster gains the ability to produce water from his fingertip. This water is not guaranteed to be pure any more than running water found in the wild, but otherwise will pour from his fingertip at a rate roughly equivalent to a bottle pouring (I don't know the measures on this, if someone could help me out), whenever he wishes it. The effect lasts until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed.

Removes non-magical grime, dirt, and dust from a target area or object. The object becomes effectively spotless. If used on an area where dust has been kicked up, the dust is removed, unless it is magically suspended. When first cast, the spell is held by the caster until he designates a target as a free action (often by gesturing at it), at which point the effect is instantaneous. The spell will be held until dismissed, consumed by this effect or another, or dispelled.

The caster causes actions of his choice in the future to produce a sound like a bell, gong, or other similar instrument. While the effect is active, any time he does that action, a sound will be produced on a random note. Casters with ranks in Perform (Any musical) can direct the notes, using this spell to produce songs. This is otherwise a normal perform check as if with an instrument or singing. When cast by a Bard, the duration is 1 minute/caster level. When used by a Domestic Sorcerer, the effect lasts until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed.

The caster's senses and reflexes are enhanced, granting a +2 bonus to Spot and Listen Checks, and a +1 Dodge Bonus to Armor Class and Reflex Saves. The effect lasts until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed.

The caster protects himself or an area from infestation by vermin and pathogens. Creatures with less than or equal to 1 intelligence, or mindless creatures, up to 1/8th HD/Caster Level, are repelled from the area. Vermin can be carried through the area by other creatures with no penalty, they do not even notice the field. Free floating contagious diseases, as well as foul odors, are also prevented from entering the area, though diseases transferred by contact can still penetrate the ward if carried by a creature unaffected by it. The effect lasts until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed.
Transfer Vitality
Necromancy
Level: Domestic Sorcerer Cantrip
Component: V, S
Range: Touch
Casting Time: 1 Move Action
Save: Fortitude Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Duration: Instantaneous

The caster touches a target, drawing on its vitality when he is fatigued, removing his fatigued status, and causing the target to become fatigued. If he is exhausted, he is instead fatigued, and the target is fatigued. This spell fails when used on any target which is already fatigued, or if used when not fatigued. Alternately, the caster can transfer his own energy into the target, removing their fatigue or changing their exhaustion to fatigue, but causing him to become fatigued. Once cast, it is held until contact is made, like any touch spell. Unlike others, the caster can choose whether to expend the spell or not when making contact.

The caster calms a target, making them less emotionally extreme. This can mean bringing down extreme excitement or agitation, lessening sadness, or calming rage. Whatever the effect is, it lasts until dismissed, consumed, dispelled, or suppressed.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

I'm confused; how does the cantrip fueling mechanic work? Anyway, it's very weak, because it has a limited spell list (apparently) that is going to be limited further by what cantrips you know, and it's only class features are *appearing* to be more powerful and getting something that's almost like detect magic... at level 7. That's just pointless.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

I'm confused; how does the cantrip fueling mechanic work? Anyway, it's very weak, because it has a limited spell list (apparently) that is going to be limited further by what cantrips you know, and it's only class features are *appearing* to be more powerful and getting something that's almost like detect magic... at level 7. That's just pointless.

They cast the Cantrip, then when they want to cast the spell, the Cantrip effect is consumed instead of a Material Component. The reason being that they aren't used to using their higher level spells. So, all their higher level spells are extensions of their Cantrips. So that he can use spells regularly, Cantrips will all be move or less actions to cast.

The appearing more powerful thing is mostly fluff, since they have as much power as a normal sorcerer, just not quite the refinement.

And I realize it's a little weak, but it's supposed to be an average guy who never really did anything with his magical abilities. Should I lower the levels on Improved and Advanced Magic Sense?

I also toyed with giving them a Moderate Base attack bonus or a d8 hit die instead. And the spell list is yet to come, maybe I can balance it by giving them some unique but powerful spells for sticking the class out until higher levels.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

No, these are not as powerful as sorcerors, no matter the fluff. They don't have 9th level spells. It's like saying rocks are as powerful as nukes. Also, casting cantrips to cast spells gives them a strong action economy disadvantage.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

No, these are not as powerful as sorcerors, no matter the fluff. They don't have 9th level spells. It's like saying rocks are as powerful as nukes. Also, casting cantrips to cast spells gives them a strong action economy disadvantage.

What I meant to say was that their innate magical energy was equivalent to a normal sorcerer. Obviously they aren't as powerful as a sorcerer, but the same amount of base energy is in them as a sorcerer of equivalent Charisma.

Revamp in progress, basic description of Cantrips will be included when finished.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by MoleMage

My first Homebrew Class, and if not my first post, then one of them. Thoughts?

Domestic Sorcerer

“I didn't realize that I could use my abilities to give myself this much of an advantage. Then some of my friends and I got drunk, thought attacking a troll was a good plan...” Gill Meybreck, Domestic Sorcerer

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Domestic Sorcerer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.

Spells
A Domestic Sorcerer's spell casting is Charisma based. To learn or cast a spell, he must have Charisma equal to or greater than the spell's level plus ten. DCs on his spells are Charisma based. They gain bonus spells from Charisma as well. As with Bards, they only learn spells if they have the bonus spells in that level.
A Domestic Sorcerer casts spells he knows spontaneously, as a Bard or Sorcerer does. His spells are arcane by nature, and therefor subject to spell failure from armor when using spells with somatic components. The exception to this is that a Domestic Sorcerer who has earned Light Armor Proficiency from a feat or from a different class. In such a case, a Domestic Sorcerer can cast spells wearing Light Armor with no penalty. This benefit does not apply to any other armor type, or to shields, even if the Domestic Sorcerer is proficient in their use.

Cantrips
A Domestic Sorcerer begins the game knowing 4 Cantrips. These are drawn from the Domestic Sorcerer spell list. He can cast these Cantrips as often as he desires. They fuel his higher level spells in place of material components. As such, he cannot cast a higher level spell for which he does not know the appropriate Cantrip. Cantrips otherwise count as 0 level spells. No more than one Cantrip effect can be active at any time. The casting time of other spells does not include the casting time of the Cantrip.

Magic Sense (Su)
Domestic Sorcerers are well attuned to the energies involved in magic use, despite knowing little about the nature of magic. Whenever a magical effect is in play within 30ft of the Domestic Sorcerer, he is able to recognize its presence by a tingling sensation in his skin. He is not normally able to recognize power or type of magic, or discern location. Extremely powerful magic, such as Major or Minor Artifacts or Epic Spells, may be noticeable from farther away, and may produce a stronger tingling sensation.

At 7th Level, the range increases to 60ft, and he can more accurately discern the power of the effect
(see Detect Magic for more information on power of effects).

At 15th Level, he is also able to concentrate on any person to determine whether they have spells available. Any caster who has spells prepared, or any spontaneous caster with unused spell slots, will register as such. The power of the person is as follows: casters with four maximum spell levels register as weak casters, casters with six maximum spell levels register as moderate casters, and casters with nine maximum spell levels register as powerful casters.

Intense Energy
Though unrefined, a Domestic Sorcerer's power is equivalent to that of a more common sorcerer. When he casts spells, their energy registers to Detect Magic and similar effects as spells of one and a half times their level, round down. Greater Arcane Sight will show unused spell slots the same way. Effects such as the Domestic Sorcerer's Magic Sense will show him as being a nine level caster rather than a six level caster.

Bonus Feats
At 4th level, and every 5 levels after that, the Domestic Sorcerer may take any Metamagic Feat as a bonus feat.

Domestic Metamagic (Su)
The Domestic Sorcerer uses Metamagic differently than other spellcasters. When using a Metamagic Feat, he applies the effect to a Cantrip as he casts it, rather than the later spell. When he consumes the Cantrip in a higher level spell, the Metamagic effect is also applied to that spell. He can apply Metamagic levels per day as indicated in the chart. Quicken Spell only applies to the Cantrip itself, but can be otherwise spontaneously applied as normal.

Special
Domestic Sorcerers cannot multiclass normally into Sorcerers. Instead, when they first take a level of Sorcerer, they begin to progress using normal Sorcerer spells. Take as the highest level they are able to match the spells per day in. A 6th level Domestic Sorcerer then takes one level in Sorcerer. The Domestic Sorcerer levels give one 3rd level spell, and two 2nd level spells. Their Domestic Sorcerer levels would count as 4 levels of Sorcerer, since they are able to produce three 2nd level spells in a day, the same as a third level Sorcerer. Their Domestic Sorcerer spells henceforth count as Sorcerer spells of the same level, both for spells known and for spells per day.

Fluff

Spoiler

Show

Domestic Sorcerers in the World

Race
Any race with the ability to use magic naturally can be a Domestic Sorcerer. Races which are discriminating against mages, however, usually will hide their innate abilities.

Attitude
Domestic Sorcerers don't plan to be adventurers. They are generally perfectly comfortable with their normal lives as farmers, cooks, blacksmiths, innkeepers, or whatever other mundane job they choose to follow. Neither are they unaware of their innate magical abilities, rather, they use them to simplify life. Starting the fire to keep warm. Picking up that book or that bowl they need from across the room, rather than getting up. Most Domestic Sorcerers are only going to be first level, and may not even know anything other than cantrips.

Adventuring
As such, Domestic Sorcerers who become adventurers must have some drastic change of heart. Maybe a loved one has died unjustly, or maybe they were attacked by a monster and developed a liking for the thrill of battle. Once they get out in the world, they begin using their Cantrips in new ways.

Notable Domestic Sorcerers
Domestic Sorcerers who become famous are not noted as being any different from other sorcerers.

Organizations
There are no organizations for Domestic Sorcerers.

Domestic Sorcerers and Other Adventurers
Domestic Sorcerers are even less unrefined in magical ability than usual Sorcerers. Where a Sorcerer becomes aware of their magical abilities, and refines them to a certain degree, learning how to bend this and that magic using their natural gifts, a Domestic Sorcerer lacks even that basic level of training. They just will, and it happens. Despite this, the two classes get along well generally, with Sorcerers who travel with their Domestic brethren often taking the role of mentor in their magical abilities.

Wizards tend to view Domestic Sorcerers little differently than other Sorcerers, though either the unstreamlined nature of Domestic magic or their skills in other areas can color the Wizard's view.

Most other classes view the Domestic Sorcerer not as a typical spellcaster, but as a typical citizen of wherever they come from. Bards occasionally find some kinship with the spontaneous nature of their magic, and Domestic Sorcerers often find great enjoyment in the Bard's performances.

Adaptation
Make note of how magic in your world works before allowing this class. Tweak as necessary.

Multiclassing
Many Domestic Sorcerers who begin adventuring will take training in a second class at some point. Those who don't often become artists with their magic, developing their own unique and original ways to use magic.

Allow infinite domestic metamagic use and allow the use of quicken spell with it. Even then it's a little underpowered, but that way it is interesting to use. Is the spell list different from the Sorcerer's?

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by MoleMage

What I meant to say was that their innate magical energy was equivalent to a normal sorcerer. Obviously they aren't as powerful as a sorcerer, but the same amount of base energy is in them as a sorcerer of equivalent Charisma.

Revamp in progress, basic description of Cantrips will be included when finished.

I don't see how their innate magical ability can be the same but they don't get ninths. It feels a lot like saying "I'm as strong as Magnus Von Magnusson, but I can't lift a quarter of the weight he does."

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

They don't have 9th level spells.

That does seem to be your baseline for every piece of homebrew you've ever given harsh, unhelpful, and repititive criticism towards.

Hey Molemage, would you mind removing the spoilers under the class features? Makes it a bit easier for me to read, but I suppose it's really fine either way. Domestic Sorcerer uses the sorcerer spell list, yes?

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

I don't see how their innate magical ability can be the same but they don't get ninths. It feels a lot like saying "I'm as strong as Magnus Von Magnusson, but I can't lift a quarter of the weight he does."

Fluff, fluff, and delicious fluff. No 9th level spell has domestic uses, aside from Wish. Meteor Swarm has absolutely no use in a non-adventuring environment, which is where the Domestic Sorcerer stays. Nor do I usually want to use Wail of the Banshee to do the dishes, or after a night out drinking with my chums.

Personally, I might be inclined to give them the ability to cast lower level spells at will, to demonstrate that their energy is going somewhere: maybe 1st level spells at will at 4th level, 2nd at 8th, 3rd at 12, 4th at 16th, and 5th at 20th?

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Lappy9000

That does seem to be your baseline for every piece of homebrew you've ever given harsh, unhelpful, and repititive criticism towards.

Hey Molemage, would you mind removing the spoilers under the class features? Makes it a bit easier for me to read, but I suppose it's really fine either way. Domestic Sorcerer uses the sorcerer spell list, yes?

Actually, he'll be using a selected portion of Sor/Wiz, Bard, and unique spells. The Cantrips, for example, will all be original, or tweaked versions of other spells (tweaked Mage Hand).

Allow infinite domestic metamagic use and allow the use of quicken spell with it. Even then it's a little underpowered, but that way it is interesting to use. Is the spell list different from the Sorcerer's?

I don't want the Cantrips to be consuming higher level spell slots normally is the only thing. Quicken will still apply only to the Cantrip, new class feature will explain why once I finish proofreading my update.

Fluff, fluff, and delicious fluff. No 9th level spell has domestic uses, aside from Wish. Meteor Swarm has absolutely no use in a non-adventuring environment, which is where the Domestic Sorcerer stays. Nor do I usually want to use Wail of the Banshee to do the dishes, or after a night out drinking with my chums.

Personally, I might be inclined to give them the ability to cast lower level spells at will, to demonstrate that their energy is going somewhere: maybe 1st level spells at will at 4th level, 2nd at 8th, 3rd at 12, 4th at 16th, and 5th at 20th?

His spells of higher than Cantrips are going to be adaptations of the Cantrips, intended more often than not to represent his development as an adventurer. The truly Domestic ones will never gain higher than 1st level, after all.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Lappy9000

That does seem to be your baseline for every piece of homebrew you've ever given harsh, unhelpful, and repititive criticism towards.

Harsh? Yes. Repetitive? Yes. Unhelpful? No. Not that the class seems to be designed for adventuring (being domestic, and all... it could be a fine NPC class, though I didn't see it labelled as such), but if it is meant to be for adventuring, it's definitely too weak to be useful. What do you want me to do, not criticize the class just because it has the same flaws as other classes: not getting high level spells/getting them late with no equivalent benefits?

Fluff, fluff, and delicious fluff. No 9th level spell has domestic uses, aside from Wish. Meteor Swarm has absolutely no use in a non-adventuring environment, which is where the Domestic Sorcerer stays. Nor do I usually want to use Wail of the Banshee to do the dishes, or after a night out drinking with my chums.

This has got to be a version of the Stormwind fallacy, or some other named fallacy, by claiming that fluff can make up for broken (in this case, underpowered) mechanics. Also, a list of all the 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells with utility uses from the SRD only:

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Milskidasith has got a point. Without 9th level spells no matter what special abilities you give the guy he won't be as good as a sorcerer, much less a wizard. However, you might be able to pull off a 3rd tier class if you give him nice special powers. You should specify that's what you are doing however so that people don't come in thinking that this class is supposed to be as powerful as a full caster or simply a variant Sorc. In fact doing that could allow people to re-flavor this and use it in campaigns where tiers 1 and 2 are nixed.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

Harsh? Yes. Repetitive? Yes. Unhelpful? No. Not that the class seems to be designed for adventuring (being domestic, and all... it could be a fine NPC class, though I didn't see it labelled as such), but if it is meant to be for adventuring, it's definitely too weak to be useful. What do you want me to do, not criticize the class just because it has the same flaws as other classes: not getting high level spells/getting them late with no equivalent benefits?

This has got to be a version of the Stormwind fallacy, or some other named fallacy, by claiming that fluff can make up for broken (in this case, underpowered) mechanics. Also, a list of all the 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells with utility uses from the SRD only:

Mind Blank (a butler should never let his thoughts get in the way of the job.)

Planar Binding, Greater.

Summon Monster VIII

All divinations of 8th level

Demand

Sympathy

Otto's Irresistible Dance: PARTY!

Screen

Clone

All 8th level Transmutations

Disjunction

All 9th level conjurations

Foresight

Shades

Shapechange

Etherealness

Wish.

That's a lot of non combat utility that this class does not get.

Regardless of how I hate that fact, it is a fact nonetheless. While Captain Obvious over here might not do anything else than using his superpower, this does not change the fact that everything in D&D after a certain level is about spells, spells, spells, and more spells.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Cataphract

Regardless of how I hate that fact, it is a fact nonetheless. While Captain Obvious over here might not do anything else than using his superpower, this does not change the fact that everything in D&D after a certain level is about spells, spells, spells, and more spells.

I see no reason you had to make your post into a personal attack against me, especially when it seemed as if the OP believed this class was an equal match to the sorcerer. Regardless of how true it is, many people do not know how powerful spells are and believe that minor abilities allow you to make up for the loss of the world shattering effects of spells.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

I see no reason you had to make your post into a personal attack against me, especially when it seemed as if the OP believed this class was an equal match to the sorcerer. Regardless of how true it is, many people do not know how powerful spells are and believe that minor abilities allow you to make up for the loss of the world shattering effects of spells.

I did not believe him to be as powerful as the sorcerer at any point. The concept started out as a sorcerer who only had spells to make his life easier, until I realized that even low level sorcerer spells were of little use in everyday life, and that even being unoptimal as a sorcerer would leave me with spells that were way out of character. Plus, the character would lack even the direction of a self taught sorcerer. He's just someone who can make fire out of nothing, or move things with his mind, as far as he knows. So I made a new system that allows him to do that at will, and that turned into a class.

I added the rule for sorcerer substitution in case one of these people trains as a more literal sorcerer, but they are meant to be farmers who maybe want to avenge their wife or something, not reality-bending masters of magic.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

I see no reason you had to make your post into a personal attack against me, especially when it seemed as if the OP believed this class was an equal match to the sorcerer. Regardless of how true it is, many people do not know how powerful spells are and believe that minor abilities allow you to make up for the loss of the world shattering effects of spells.

It's not a personal attack, I'm merely stating the same fact that Lappy9000 stated.

Every time somebody comes up with an idea, you punch them straight through the teeth, saying how high level spells are a necessity and anything without them is severely underpowered.

While I understand the reason (some people are not familiar with high level play since they never even played up to that level) and while I also do see the benefits of other people explaining it to them, I hate it when you're one vowel short of calling them stupid just because they did not know it. Of course, it's not just you who does that. Unfortunately.

Actually, the vast majority of people don't know it, exactly because they don't play at that level. And more than likely they won't ever bother to.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Drolyt

It's odd that the class progresses normally like a Sorcerer until 11th level then gets cut off. In fact before then they progress faster than a Sorcerer.

Even more so than a traditional Sorcerer, these guys operate on instinct. They don't think "Everything I know about magic says that I shouldn't have enough power to do this." They think "All I know about magic is that I have it in me, I'm gonna try and do this." It works out fairly well for them, until they start reaching the points where they have to actually keep control of powerful spells. Plus, they're generally more physically and mentally mature than a sorcerer (not necessarily), giving their magic time to develop passively as well, just without them ever using or realizing it.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

It's not a personal attack, I'm merely stating the same fact that Lappy9000 stated.

Every time somebody comes up with an idea, you punch them straight through the teeth, saying how high level spells are a necessity and anything without them is severely underpowered.

Incorrect. I balance things based on what they're intended to be. Sure, if it's a magic class with no features but magic, or a full casting PrC with no benefits besides casting, losing 9th is the obvious issue, one which people seem to ignore with frequency. But I don't ever bring up spellcasting when I judge melee classes, and for gish builds I'm more likely to let it slide. It's also even *more* pointless than pointing out the obvious to go around trolling my posts and implying I'm intentionally being a jerk for no reason.

To get back to the "what they are intended to be" thing: If somebody says "I intend this to be T3" I judge it based on how close to T3 it is, not how close to spellcasters it is. When you're dealing with classes that have no design intent stated, I have to make guesses. In my case, I guess that full casting PrCs and full casting base classes are balanced around sorcerer/wizard level (T2), Gishes are balanced around T3, ToB stuff is balanced around T3, and most martial classes are balanced around being T4/T3, about equal to a barbarian, or a bit better, because melee can have goodies.

While I understand the reason (some people are not familiar with high level play since they never even played up to that level) and while I also do see the benefits of other people explaining it to them, I hate it when you're one vowel short of calling them stupid just because they did not know it. Of course, it's not just you who does that. Unfortunately.

I don't call them stupid, or even imply it. I tell them what is good for balance, and that is all. If they do not listen to me, I explain my position further. I make no personal attacks. I wish I could say the same for you.

Actually, the vast majority of people don't know it, exactly because they don't play at that level. And more than likely they won't ever bother to.

It's a homebrew forum. If you post a class, and especially if you post a class with a PEACH tag after it, you have to expect criticism. If you want me to blindly praise everything with useless posts like "this is cool" and "I'll use this in my campaign" then I'm sorry, I can't oblige you. I work to make things more balanced.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

Incorrect. I balance things based on what they're intended to be. Sure, if it's a magic class with no features but magic, or a full casting PrC with no benefits besides casting, losing 9th is the obvious issue, one which people seem to ignore with frequency. But I don't ever bring up spellcasting when I judge melee classes, and for gish builds I'm more likely to let it slide. It's also even *more* pointless than pointing out the obvious to go around trolling my posts and implying I'm intentionally being a jerk for no reason.

I don't know you personally, so there is nothing personal here involved. This does not alleviate the fact you are going around saying the exact same thing.

I don't call them stupid, or even imply it. I tell them what is good for balance, and that is all. If they do not listen to me, I explain my position further. I make no personal attacks. I wish I could say the same for you.

It's a homebrew forum. If you post a class, and especially if you post a class with a PEACH tag after it, you have to expect criticism. If you want me to blindly praise everything with useless posts like "this is cool" and "I'll use this in my campaign" then I'm sorry, I can't oblige you. I work to make things more balanced.

There's a world of difference between complimenting without meaning to and being downright rude for no reason at all. And you quite often are, especially due to some misplaced sense of loyalty to "mechanical balance". While I understand where you're coming from, some people don't really care about it, especially compared to fluff, so don't flog them because they like to play the game differently.

But enough is enough. I will stop derailing this thread right here. If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to PM.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

This class is considerably weaker than the sorcerer, as the others have said. Perhaps if you edited something like "I mean for this to be about tier three" in your first post, it would be easier to critique it.

Also, is there any reason you have three (two if you count 6th level spells as a feature) dead levels? Did you just run out of ideas for abilities?

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Cataphract

I don't know you personally, so there is nothing personal here involved. This does not alleviate the fact you are going around saying the exact same thing.

This still doesn't explain why this is a bad thing. If multiple people make the same mistake, you correct them all. What would you rather me do, say "Look at this post in another thread, it explains it?" so I don't make multiple posts on multiple different threads?

There's a world of difference between complimenting without meaning to and being downright rude for no reason at all. And you quite often are, especially due to some misplaced sense of loyalty to "mechanical balance". While I understand where you're coming from, some people don't really care about it, especially compared to fluff, so don't flog them because they like to play the game differently.

Loyalty? If people say PEACH, I assume they want it PEACH'd. If people post threads at all in the homebrew forum, I'm going to assume that it's not out of place to comment on the balance of them. Sure, some people don't care about mechanics, but if they didn't, they wouldn't be making classes with mechanical abilities, and if they did make classes while not caring about the balance, people using them might.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

I am seriously considering deleting this post, but while I am thinking about it I am just going to spoilerize.

Spoiler

Show

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

going to assume that it's not out of place to comment on the balance of them. Sure, some people don't care about mechanics, but if they didn't, they wouldn't be making classes with mechanical abilities,

Wanting mechanics is not the same thing as wanting mechanics balanced to any given power level.

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

and if they did make classes while not caring about the balance, people using them might.

A point, and so long as you don't necessarily expect the original poster to change anything based on your comments (and maybe make that plain in your analysis) then that would COMPLETELY cover it.

Of course, most people probably WOULD head towards balance given the option.

Re: Domestic Sorcerer [3.5 Base Class]

Originally Posted by Milskidasith

Sure, some people don't care about mechanics, but if they didn't, they wouldn't be making classes with mechanical abilities, and if they did make classes while not caring about the balance, people using them might.

Just a point, throwing 9th level spells doesn't automatically make a class balanced. Theres a reason why, in the Tier system, many consider Tier 3 or 4 to be a good balance point.

High level spellcasters aren't balanced. In fact, even a little bit of optimisation can be enough to turn them into game-breakers. So why is "balance" recomending that other classes be more like them?

Back to Topic: At first glance the class seems pretty good, I especially like the cantrip idea. Though I'll need to look a little longer before I can uncover any problems.