as far as i understand from the texts, it works best if you modify the product so it 'll become virus-worthy.

Yes, but can you do that without changing the message?

in the case of the marketing example, that wouldn't matter. obtaining a meme virus is already the reward in itself, all you need is a little part of it that you "own" in order to make a profit when the virus reaches its top infection point.

as far as i understand from the texts, it works best if you modify the product so it 'll become virus-worthy.

Yes, but can you do that without changing the message?

in the case of the marketing example, that wouldn't matter. obtaining a meme virus is already the reward in itself, all you need is a little part of it that you "own" in order to make a profit when the virus reaches its top infection point.

But this isn't the marketing example. And I don't want it to be.

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One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of Discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

I'd just like to note that the list of definitions has one for "cult", and under this definition one could call Academia such.

This being the second time today I have found that meme.

Apparently, by these definitions, I am now an active host, sneezing all over ya'all.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 02:09:48 am by Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe »

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One by one, we break the sheep from their Iron Bar Prisons and expand their imaginations, make them think for themselves. In turn, they break more from their prisons. Eventually, critical mass is reached. Our key word: Resolve. Evangelize with compassion and determination. And realize that there will be few in the beginning. We are hand picking our successors. They are the future of Discordianism. Let us guide our future with intelligence.

CoV are a bunch of pricks, but that doesn't mean there's not some good info and ideas on their site.

I tried to nudge them into the fold a couple years ago and they were WAY too stuck on themselves as the be-all and end-all of human advancement to want to work with other groups.

indeedy.

i used to be on the mailing list before CoV had a BBS.

pricks is being nice. i called myself an intellectual anarchist.one dude (ironicly) pulled a pidgeon hole, and said that's the same asa anarchoprimitavist (see: anything by "davesnothere" or "Lamanite").

would you know it? everyone else jumped on the bandwagon. so i just continued arguing from the (false) perspective of the anarchoprimativesanyway.

"David Lucifer" may or maynot still be there, i don't care, but he was one of thefew entities there with antipathy for the mindless drivel.

The Book of Atem (which I have a signed pre-publish manuscript of ) appears to me as a combination between the creation of a "memetic entity" and a dissertation on memetic entities and how to create them. In Phil's system, memetic entities are a collection of memes that have created a self-perpetuating system. So while "Homosexuality is a sin"/"You go to hell, you go to hell and you DIE!" might be memes, Christianity as a whole exists as a memetic entity. "Buy Low, Sell High" is a meme, but Capitalism is a memetic entity.

Atem, the memetic entity intorduced in the book is sort of a meta-memetic entity. Atem was created, designed and released as a memetic entity to help people explore the concepts of memetic entities.

I'm about half-way through the book and I've found it fascinating. In applying it to our BiP concepts, I think it may provide some ideas on how to improve what we're aiming to do. If we consider memetic entities in the vernacular of Discordianism. Flax, fnords, Mr. Momomoto nose, Hypoc's Bitter Tea, etc etc are all memes that are shared between multiple entities. Discordianism in general appears as a memetic entity, but so does The Principia Discordia and Eris. The difference between a meme and a memetic entity, in Hine's system, (as far as I can figure at this point)the meme is somewhat static and viral, a single idea getting passed around. A memetic entity appears like a collection of memes, existing within the minds of humans, modifying and being modified by each consciousness that it comes in contact with.

Hine lays out several elements necessary to create memetic entities for a specific purpose. I'll have to wait until I get home to lay out further details on the topic... mostly cause that's where the book currently resides.

I disagree with your premise that Discordianism is a memetic entity. While perhaps a strictly PD interpretation of Discordianism could count as a memetic entity, Discordianism is more like a collection of strategies for thinking about and generating memes. It's a meme which serves the purpose of preventing the creation of memetic entities among those infected with it. Discordianism is basically the "think for yourself, shmuck" meme (and perhaps paired with a meme which instruct to look past duality to see the real truth, like the parable of the gong), and by its very nature won't allow memes that create/preserve memetic entities (like dogma or the threat of hell).

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[witticism/philosophical insight/nifty quote to prove my intelligence to the forum]

[231]Genesis of the genius. The prisoner's wits, which he uses to seek means to free himself by employing each little advantage in the most calculated and exhaustive way, can teach us the tools nature sometimes uses to produce a genius (a word that I ask be understood without any mythological or religious nuance). Nature traps the genius into a prison, and piques to the utmost his desire to free himself.Or, to use another image, someone who has completely lost his way in ,a forest, but strives with uncommon energy to get out of it in whatever direction, sometimes discovers a new, unknown way: this is how geniuses come into being, who are then praised for their originality.We have already mentioned that mutilation, crippling, or serious lack of an organ often causes another organ to develop unusually well because it has to carry out both its own function and another besides. From this we can divine the origin of many a splendid talent.One should apply these general comments about the origin of the genius to the special case, the genesis of the perfect free spirit.

__________

in thinking, further, of one of his earlier aphorisms (beyond good and evil, i believe) i had a thought.

one should think outside the box. before as such, though, one must learn to think inside the box; one must learn to think.

i'd be the least to detract them from that. (even though i have, seemingly, tried- largely out of personal amusement.)

it seems to me that BIP is being spoken, conceived and perhaps even felt (if that's not too strong a word) in a post-box endeavor. that is awesome, like a thousand hotdogs, sir.

however, you have to (well, should at least grudgingly) consider that the PD was created with more than the dada bullshit in mind. in fact, the predominant theme, imo, was the double entendre of what you read and the principal at play (re: the law of fives, the starbuck's pebbles, the bitter tea, et al...). moreover, it's taken to such an absurd degree, that it's ultimately as benign as the trivial objects used for introductory logic premises. (cats, dogs; moon, cheese...) this is (or could be taken as) another layer of banality masking the basic mechanism.

so, then, the principia discordia has it's shit all retarded and talks like a fag, but it's an implement for understanding some of the basic principals to how thought in the box works. now, perhaps in the natural progression, whatever that is, you come to disdain the box-thoughts knowing them on such intimate terms.

[276]

Microcosm and macrocosm of culture. Man makes the best discoveries about culture within himself when he finds two heterogeneous powers governing there. Given that a man loved the plastic arts or music as much as he was moved by the spirit of science, and that he deemed it impossible to end this contradiction by destroying the one and completely unleashing the other power; then, the only thing remaining to him is to make such a large edifice of culture out of himself that both powers can live there, even if at different ends of it; between them are sheltered conciliatory central powers, with the dominating strength to settle, if need be, any quarrels that break out. Such a cultural edifice in the single individual will have the greatest similarity to the cultural architecture of whole eras and, by analogy, provide continuous instruction about them. For wherever the great architecture of culture developed, it was its task to force opposing forces into harmony through an overwhelming aggregation of the remaining, less incompatible27 powers, yet without suppressing or shackling them.27. unvertr?§glich, not unertr?§glich (unbearable) as in the Zimmern text.

I disagree with your premise that Discordianism is a memetic entity. While perhaps a strictly PD interpretation of Discordianism could count as a memetic entity, Discordianism is more like a collection of strategies for thinking about and generating memes. It's a meme which serves the purpose of preventing the creation of memetic entities among those infected with it. Discordianism is basically the "think for yourself, shmuck" meme (and perhaps paired with a meme which instruct to look past duality to see the real truth, like the parable of the gong), and by its very nature won't allow memes that create/preserve memetic entities (like dogma or the threat of hell).

Maybe we have different ideas in mind when we say memetic entity. In Hine's book, the memetic entity exists as a set (or sets) of memes which have gone beyond the mind and control of a single human or group and exist within many consciousnesses modifying and being modified by the other existant things in that consciousness. I think maybe he sees them as new creations which can be spread through human consciousness so that they become part of Jung's collective unconscious. Memetic entites in the sense Hine uses them are neither good nor bad, they are creations with purpose... as they grow (by invading more heads) they grow by incorporating new concepts and getting rid of old ones. There's no single consistency to his Memetic entities, other than the similarity among its most basic memes/concepts.

Christianity, for example has a few very basic memes that make up the most simple for of the memetic entity. Belief in Jesus as the Messiah, belief in a Creator, belief in some sort of continuity of life. However, the entity has changed greatly since the most basic inception and now includes all sorts of memes from all sorts of other consciousnesses; A burning firey hell, an eternal soul, heaven with the wings and halo and hosannas, Everlasting life on Earth (JW addition), becoming God of your own planet (Mormon addition), Transubstantiation (Catholic addition), then there are all of the old gnostic additions etc.

The memetic entity of discordianism, seems to focus on "Think for yourself, schmuck", "perception is not reality" and maybe something like "It's better to laugh at the absurdity of it all, than try to be serious about it".

Memetic entities aren't particularly static, nor are they an All Encompassing inhabitant of one's mind. Many memetic entities may exist at the same time in one person's head, memetic entities that concern themselves with politics, with religion, with philosophy, or simply memetic entities that help you understand memetic entities (which is the purpose of The Book of Atem, Atem being the 'gateway memetic entity').

It's a pretty good book so far... and the exercises are rather intriguing.

Oh, okay. In that sense then, one could consider Discordianism a memetic entity, albeit a very fluid one.

Precisely. In Phil's system, memetic entities must be fluid, otherwise they're not entities.

If I create a memetic entity called Finbop and define as having a set of properties, then I have really created a 'potential' entity. When Finbop is given attention by your consciousness (C^tlu) then it becomes (Finbop*C^tlu), if instead it contact with TGGR then it would be (Finbop*C^tggr). If you communicate the entity to Prater Festwo then it would become ((Finbop*C^tlu)*C^pf).

If Festwo then talks to TGGR about it, it becomes (((Finbop*C^tlu)*(Finbop*C^tggr))*C^pf) in Festwo's head... in TGGR's head it might look like: ((Finbop*C^tgger)*((Finbop*C^tlu)*C^pf))

and on and on and on, each consciousness modifies and is modified by the entity.

Of course, I think this is all metaphorical and no Really Real entity exists... rather I see it as a useful way to discuss complex meme sets, specifically meme sets which are designed to exist within the noosphere rather than a meme designed to exist in a brain.