Hi im looking for any GOOD books on Dim-mak and other related stuff. theres on thing im really interested in is muscle supperation, were u seperate the muscle so it wont work, if u know of any GOOD books with that stuff in it i would really appreciate it if u let me knew.Thanks,bye

Ed, just to play "devil's advocate" for a moment... do you think a pistol will kill you, or do you have to look down the barrel of one and pull the trigger for the evidence?

2nd question would be: "how much actual training in Dim Mak do you have?"

And my favorite book would be "Myopic Septicism and how it disproves all medical evidence when used on the internet".

I do, however, agree with you that "a look at fajing principles instead" would be more beneficial for you. Personally, I don't have to be hit by a car to know not to stand in front of one when it's moving...

While Dim Mak has been romanticized way too much, there is a lot of medical evidence that promotes the theory that hitting "certain vital spots in the body" causes irreparable damage. If you disagree, let one of the students kick you in the thoat or cajones, or carotid sinus and then type your skeptical answer...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Quote: I am not aware of much similar evidence regarding Dim Mak deaths

And why would you be? Most scientific research is tendered toward finding what killed someone, not necessarily how and when the injury was incurred. Dim Mak strikes are designed not necessarily to cause instant death, but injuries that cause death from hematomas, clots, and all kinds of other "injuries" that can be initiating "naturally occuring" injuries or getting a little help from the outside to cause different body systems to shut down.

Talk to a surgeon sometimes about hitting the vagus nerve in the neck. It's the most widely used pressure point knockout vehicle (ST-9)(and one of the most dangerous) because it is connected to every major organ in the body. Hitting there can cause all kinds of body shutdowns that can't be repaired without acupuncture therapy or other medical procedures, and those "experts" that hit that point all the time are depending on resucication techniques to wake somebody up, but they never think about the damage beyond "waking the uke up". They can be causing liver, kidney, heart and all kinds of other damage that isn't evident from their initial encounter.

A lot of Dim Mak works through the autonomic nervous system as well, and it's like an "unopened e-mail" to the body. When it does it's damage, it causes body systems to begin failing or the blood system to start breaking down. Strategically placed "small clots" can break loose and become dangerous clots as they're transferred to the brain or lungs.

Modern medicine has a lot of new cures for things that were once lethal, and it has diminished the Dim Mak effectiveness by some measure, but unless someone gets the diagnosis immediately correct on a lot of the injuries, there's still time for a Dim Mak strike to do its job. I'm realistic enough to know that everything in Dim Mak isn't still the mystical theory that it once was, but it's not completely discounted either.

Like the cardio cortis phenomenon, there are a lot of things that happen that the skeptics won't consider evidence, and the "true believers" think is clear evidence, so it's still just a difference of opinion. Like shooting that pistol we discussed, accuracy has a lot to do with the effectiveness of it as well. You don't learn the stuff overnight, and it was kept from most of the students for most, if not all, of their training lives. While it's still "wrapped in mystery", I wouldn't discount it strictly because somebody's not "producing the bodies" to prove the technique. If that's necessary, show me the bodies of those from the pistol analogy...

My mother, who had surgery on her carotid artery for a clogged artery, said that her own surgeon mentioned that damage to that area was very "critical" and that he had to be careful to insure that he did no damage that might cause a clot or damage to the vagus nerve that ran through the spot where he had to operate. I can't imagine why he was concerned...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Tell me the difference between hitting someone in the general area of the neck very hard vs. hitting someone very hard on some pinpoint location of the neck within the same general area I'm aiming for.

or to use your example of firearms...would you rather have a shotgun to the general area of the neck, or a bullet to ST-9 ? another point is, would you need/want to practice stem shots for self-defense firearm training?

No more than you saying someone has to produce a dead body to prove that Dim Mak works.

Quote: none, since it's bunk

Hmmm... then you say "dim mak possible? yes"... and then"trainable and reproducable enough to warrent writing a book on it's techniques? no"

If Dim Mak works,(which you say is possible) why couldn't someone teach it's techniques? Why couldn't they write a book on its techniques?

I'm the first one to admit that the old discussions of Dim Mak are not as valid as they once were because of changes in medical knowledge, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the dishwater quite yet...

Are strikes with the side of a stick and the end of a stick exactly the same?... of course not, and neither are point strikes to kyusho points on the body. There's a lot of "angles" and "types of force application" theories that go into Dim Mak training.

Your analogy with firearms to the neck is a little over the top, because the types of wounds inflicted by the different firearms would negate any "point" strike type of application. You could probably tape a grenade to somebody's neck and do them some serious harm too, but again, that's off the charts with the discussion.

You are clearly looking at only the "immediate effect" of a strike to a hitting point, and not the long term effect of one. Your analogy would be better served with making some comparison to someone dying from a gunshot wound from a temple shot or "later" from a shot into the neck. Both of them would kill the victim, but in different ways... just like a difference between blunt force trauma and trauma to a hitting point.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Want to learn real Dim Mak? go to any well respected Chinese kung fu master that teaches Choy-li-fut, eagels claw, or mabey white eyebrow and train hard with them for about 10 or 15 years, show good moral character and stay out of trouble and mabey they will teach you Dim Mak.

ah yes, the d34dly 'delayed death touch' ...hey, isn't that what Bruce Lee died of? lol actually there is proof of the delayed death touch...at the end of 'kill bill 2', it marked the death of David Carridine's acting career, with no possiblity of a part 3.

Quote:

"With no training or deep investigation into Dim Mak, Ed's opinion of it is that it's "bunk", so he chooses to ignore any evidence or facts to the contrary. I just have a differing opinion about it."

so when can we expect your book to be out then, with this 'evidence' - you realize you are the only person in the world with such evidence, yes?

The claim of Dim Mak is death or delayed death caused from a direct result of a single 'touch'...but I'd be willing to allow that claim to include very hard strikes.

since the claim involves death, then yes, proof would have to be producing a corpse. then compare it to someone with no dim mak 'training', hitting the same general area and compare results. my prediction: both subjects are knocked out long enough to run away....neither one dies either immediately or as a direct result later, however, they might find it a bit more comfortable over the next few days, reading their Dim Mak book at eye level.

differing opinions is fine. someone asks a recommendation of a book on a subject that is 95% outright fraudulent, and the remaining 5% unprovable - you betcha I tell them not to bother, it would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

Tell you what, if you write a book about Dim Mak and publish it, I'll recommend it to the author of this thread to boost your sales into the double digits, launching you into the 'bestseller' category of Dim Mak material.

by the way wrist, which books do YOU recommend for the (assuming age) 17 year old drive-by posting kid who is asking? also, care to address his understanding of 'muscle separation'...or I guess what he is describing is the concept of an 'anti- dim mak'.

btw, I would have thought a dim-makist would be more attentive to detail...harlan was making light or your unique spelling of 'Myopic Septicism'. Which, my first thought was you were accusing me of some kind of flawed plumbing.

Quote: btw, I would have thought a dim-makist would be more attentive to detail...harlan was making light or your unique spelling of 'Myopic Septicism'. Which, my first thought was you were accusing me of some kind of flawed plumbing.

Oh, Ed... so sorry... I don't normally miss spelling corrections. I didn't realize it would upset the applecart after reading some of the other posts here. My sincere apologies...

Quote: harlan was making light or your unique spelling of 'Myopic Septicism'.

of... maybe?

As for book recommendations, I wouldn't... not because I don't trust the material, but just what you mentioned... the "drive by" user that just can't wait to go try this out on some unsuspecting victim in the dojo. For karate players, the best book out there is the Bubishi which generically shows a lot of "target areas", but doesn't give them the specific angles, etc. That is best left to an instructor who can control who gets the right kind of information.

I wouldn't write a book on Dim Mak technique any more than I would hand a loaded gun to a child, so take an internet victory lap and consider this one a "tactical withdrawel". We clearly disagree, and maybe some issues are best left to the skeptical unbelievers. Why don't you write one on building nuclear bombs and issue it to the general public?

My google skills are fine. This was in response to my previous statement "that's not really the issue here. Ed's not convinced that Dim Mak is a repeatable skill or that it works as advertised. His "proof of life" is somebody's lifeless body on the floor..."

You don't believe in it, but you'll sell them the book???... That borders on hypocrisy... but what do I know...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

pointing people to resources is different from selling. it's guiding at best. I wouldn't guide anyone towards a doubly wasted effort (1st buying into death touches and 2nd trying to learn them from a book). I was just joking saying if I first responed with just the links you provided, this thread would have been much shorter and forgotten. plus, what harm is there? If the person who started the thread can't even find his way back to it...how the heck is he going to manage finding ST-9 at a 53 degree angle? bwahaha

leaning how to hit someone hard around a general area at a general angle is all you need. going thru great pains (and hard earned $$) to learn how to hit some unprovable kill switches is bunk, kidz.

what exactly was I dodging? I've been consistant throughout. Dim mak is bunk and I haven't recommended books. pretty simple.If I had recommended randomly searched stuff like you did, you wouldn't have chimed in with your justifications for spending time chasing a myth and reading Dillman.

here's the real bunk part that gets everyone: lets take your ST-9. are you honestly saying there will be a drastically different reaction from a hard strike to 1" away from ST-9 ? ST-9 causes death (or 'eventual death' lol) but 1" away is a K.O.??? The 'eventual death' theory never takes into account preexisting conditions. maybe the guy you just hit smoked 3 packs and drank a fifth of whiskey a day...eventual death is a certainty. the hit to the neck might have brought him to the hospital, but his diagnosis was long overdue.

dodge this: in your first post you mention 'medical evidence'. lets have it. stats of a 1 in a trillion baseball to the chest?

kosh, funny. I was taught to drop them. if I had time to aim, then it's a bonus. you?

guys, good debate. I like to be proven wrong, it's the best time to learn. since this is a book forum, I probably shouldn't have allowed it to continue, I can move this to the appropriate place if need be, but for now we'll keep it here.

Okay, since "Dim Mak is bunk", then is the Chinese Medicine that it's based on also "bunk"? What about acupuncture and acupressure? All this stuff is interrelated, so I need to know which parts work for you and which ones don't so I can make my arguments coherent.

To be truthful, I'm not actually trying to convince you that Dim Mak works or doesn't, I'm just trying to figure out how you can select a target for karate if you don't think there are hitting points on the body that are more effective than others... I've already told you that most of the information out there about Dim Mak is out of date, but I want to know how you pick a target if you don't think that one hit will do the job when another one won't... or do all "hits" count equally?

Will a punch to the side of the head do equal damage to a clean shot to the solar plexus... or do they have different effects? What about a shuto to the clavicle-carotid sinus area as opposed to a "floating rib" shot? How about that shuto to the clavicle-C/S and one to the kidneys... how would you choose between those and why?

To answer your specific question, there is a difference between hitting the tsubo exactly right and being offline... probably more than an inch, but enough to change the dynamic at the nerve/artery site. Yes, you might get a knockout, and yes you might still kill the guy. The neck is a very tricky place to work, and there's more going on up there than most people know. Blunt force in that area is always dangerous.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

wordtwister, I am calm: I never said anything for you to jump to the conclusion - "I'm just trying to figure out how you can select a target for karate if you don't think there are hitting points on the body that are more effective than others."

If a strike to one general area, lets say side of the neck, has the same effect as someone who has years of training targeting an area the size of a dime...then that laser targeting acuracy training was for nought.

I aim for the side of the neck. you aim for some imaginary point on the side of the neck...

whats the difference and give proof.

If there is no proof, then maybe my time is better spent just going for the general area of the side of the neck instead of some ancient human roadmap having no basis in modern science.

meridians? open up a cadaver and show me these pathways. accupressure is massage. accupuncture is placebo. believing in these things is not understanding ki/chi. (it's not an automatic system like blood, air or electrical flow, you have to train to make chi work). and Chinese Medicine ? you mean like the medicine stuff in the bubishi which has been proven to have NO medical basis whatsoever? is that the medicine you mean?

at best, meridians may happen to intersect at some nerve points....geezuz with so many meridians, they are bound to cover a nerve area. and especially nerves when pressed aganst bone, ouch...yes they hurt....but kill? not provable and not useful.

on top of all that, relying on hitting an area the size of a dime at the precise angle during the heat of battle, would be like trying to put on your seatbelt when you realize you are about to crash.

I'm going to move this thread now...so others know about it and can correct my facts with their facts.

Ed, I asked a question... not drew a conclusion. You typed a page full of bluster, but never answered any of my questions... and I didn't twist anything you said, I just changed the conversation since we had hit an impasse.

Now, let me type slowly for you... how do you select targets for your karate punches and kicks? Does one target have more significant value than others? If so, why?

I don't know enough three and four letter words to make this any simpler...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Quote:The neck is a very tricky place to work, and there's more going on up there than most people know.

I do agree with that. While I am not a beleiver of Dim Mak for the most part, I have twice in my life KO'd someone with a neck strike as part of classroom training (not forcefully) - although all the other (literally) hundreds of times else did not.

So that would lead me to believe that angles and targeting may make a difference, as I have no other explanation why KO's happen sometimes but not others.

However, the amount of practice that this seems to require would make Dim Mak impractical ("low percentage") at best.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

First of all guys, what`s with the insults? It`s a pretty interesting thread - without the insults.

Quote:kosh, funny. I was taught to drop them. if I had time to aim, then it's a bonus. you?

I meant when you practice. I doubt that if you practiced shooting in a general area that you would be able to drop many (people?). Aiming at practice makes you a better shooter, no? Don`t you think it is similar with dim mak?

Quote:

If a strike to one general area, lets say side of the neck, has the same effect as someone who has years of training targeting an area the size of a dime...then that laser targeting acuracy training was for nought.

I aim for the side of the neck. you aim for some imaginary point on the side of the neck...

whats the difference and give proof.

If there is no proof, then maybe my time is better spent just going for the general area of the side of the neck instead of some ancient human roadmap having no basis in modern science.

Who says it has the same effect? Anyways, aim small, miss small maybe? If you focus your strike on one point isn`t it stronger than if you don`t focus and your strike just lands where it lands?

Quote:meridians? open up a cadaver and show me these pathways. accupressure is massage. accupuncture is placebo. believing in these things is not understanding ki/chi. (it's not an automatic system like blood, air or electrical flow, you have to train to make chi work). and Chinese Medicine ? you mean like the medicine stuff in the bubishi which has been proven to have NO medical basis whatsoever? is that the medicine you mean?

Hmmm, I opened up a radio and I didn`t see any radio waves in it?? You don`t have to train to make chi work... If Chinese Medicine doesn`t have a western medical basis or something, doesn`t mean that it`s bunk...

Quote:nerve strikes, I'll buy.

Don`t nerve strikes fall under dim mak as well? That`s the way I see it, dim mak has many levels.

Matt, agreed...just like a difference in effect between hitting the solar plexus vs hitting a few inches higher in the sternum.

targeting vital areas is a good and worthwile thing to bring someone down as quick as possible. I mean, who would want to hit someone in the shoulder as oppossed to the neck if the goal is to bring them down...common sense. It just doesn't work the way it is often sold. and it definitely has no business claiming to cause death or later organ failure. Other than the tiny fraction % random chance of that happening after a confrontation anyway.

pressure points when defined as vital targets, nerve targets, disrupting blood flow, etc to cause pain, a reaction, or in some areas unconscienceness make perfect sense and are reproducable with practice. This is what Dim-Mak guys are demonstrating when they want you to buy into the 'disrupting chi flow' explaination of what is going on.

my only point of pressure is the myth of Dim Mak that gets sold to the gulible as learning precise kill switches by pressing the right button along an ancient pre-medical canal map suppossedly cycling chi energy thru our body. The other part of the bunk is justifying the level of precision when comparred to the %chance of intended outcome.

it simply doesn't have a basis in medical fact or even sensability. save your money for a medical anatomy book, not a dim mak cartoon.

well, there you go kosh, the radio wave example gives a clear picture to me of how you misunderstand this. radio waves are transmitted and received thru air, once it get's 'in your radio' it's in the form of elecrical signal. so the wires that you see there are the conduits. snip the right wire, and you no longer can hear your Yanni.

First to accept it has validity you have to show me someone who has successfully applied it consitstently. In other words strike X when done will kill every time.

If you can prove such a person exists, do you really want to study with someone who kills people?

That the real rub.

If Dim Mak has a reality, working to avoid being struck that way makes more sense.

The Bubishi tries to have it both ways. Trying to show how to strike to kill, to learn when you're vulnerable by those rules, and in turn to learn how to negate or counter it 'medically'. Off hand there's one point that kills in a few steps or seconds, but there's a treatment for that point being struck too. Of course that would mean you have to have somebody there instantly to counter it?

One of my Chinese friends maintains the Dim Mak stories may have arrisen in the past when many Chinese were mal-nourished and their bodies couldn't handle the pain from being struck. That's an interesting theory. Perhaps someone will volunteer to starve a few years so we can prove it.

And that's the rub, if you really want to prove if, you no longer operate as a 'human' but as a 'klingon'. It's inseperable that you have no human values if you really study the way of 'death'...... assuming it exists.

Do points cause pain... yes. Do points cause great pain..yes. Might death result from some techniques...yes. Can you KO somebody by causing their heart to stop beating, yes surgeon's do so with Carotid Sinus manipulation during surgery all the time.

But there are differen coditions:1) your're attacked suddenly and you're just surviving 2) you're attacked suddenly but you have faster reaction time so you can pick your traget of response 3) you're attacking, especially if unexpected, so you can choose where to strike.

If Chinese medicine has real answers, the next time you are seriously ill will you pick it over your local doctor? If not why accept it's link to Dim Mak?

Some thoughts on something that may exist, or may not, but why does a person want to play that game?

Who`s Yanni?Funny, that`s something like how I might imagine dim mak working. The counduits are "in" the body. Would they have to be something physical for you to believe they exist? With my example I was just trying to say that if you don`t see something, it doesn`t mean that it doesn`t exist. So what if modern science isn`t able to prove it yet? The system has worked for the chinese for much longer than our medicine...

I think you don`t understand that everything is interrelated.

Quote:pressure points when defined as vital targets, nerve targets, disrupting blood flow, etc to cause pain, a reaction, or in some areas unconscienceness make perfect sense and are reproducable with practice. This is what Dim-Mak guys are demonstrating when they want you to buy into the 'disrupting chi flow' explaination of what is going on.

See, why is "disrupting chi flow" wrong here? If you strike a nerve or disrupt blood flow, that also means that chi flow is disrupted. Chi flow in my opinion get affected one way or another. The difference is only the way you affect it.

All interesting thoughts Victor. For some it might be better we go to the philosophy section.

Quote: If Chinese medicine has real answers, the next time you are seriously ill will you pick it over your local doctor? If not why accept it's link to Dim Mak?

Unfortunately I don`t have a practioner of TCM per se, near me. I see western medicine as being a quick fix. Western medicine usually treats symptoms, while TCM treats the underlying causes. So probably (depending on the illness and western ways of treatment), if I got seriously ill I`d get a western doctor to fix me. But afterwards, I would go to the TCM doctor. These two medicines don`t have to exclude each other. I think they would be great working together. Complementary medicine is a nice term.

Interesting theory. Of course there is literally almost no resource to utilize both types of sources across the states. My surgeon does not discount chinese medicine, he just doesn't have supporting research results to accept is as he would his other practices. And that's not an unreasonable answer. You wouldn't want him practicing surgery without supporting research proving the results would you? Modern Medicine isn't tring not to solve medical issues. If the Chinese medical approach can be sufficiently verified it would be endorsed.

ahhh...so you are saying chi has invisible conduits...I see. and the body has something other than bio-electo-mechanical pathways that medical science hasn't discovered yet? Well, it actually has been discovered in another field of study...see: psychology.

If you think they are there, then they are there for you...except you won't be able to prove anything to anyone else other than your belief. If people admire that belief...they will believe it too. see, it's psychology and it's based upon the manipulation of that psychology.

Quote:Captain Alexander Williams, a New York City police inspector at the time, attributed "There's a sucker born every minute, but none of them ever die" to Joseph Bessimer, a notorious confidence trickster of the early 1880s known to the police as "Paper Collar Joe".

Victor, you are right of course. But, I think that TCM has been used for a very long time, and by hundreds of millions of people, which is one of the reasons why for me research isn`t required. But I understand that`s not how it is for many people.

People have always used what's available, which isn't the same as dependable. After all 'Faith Healing' obtains results too, and you can go to the Church of your choice to also get healed. It's always a question of faith and choice.

But it's too easy to discount modern medical practices as just cleaning up messes. First off what they do is unreal, and takes great training, and is BS to write off the medical miracles they accomplish. Second off, most of the time it happens because people don't listen to or obtain the correct medical advice to prevent the circumstances from happening. I highly doubt modern medical practices if followed correctly destroy the body to then work on it.

It's just wrong to simply this topic with millions of layers all of which are necessary. Look if I say I can cause you great pain with a specific strike, it's not enought that I can do it occasionally, I have to do it 100% and be able to train others to do the same. This is demonstratable testing for transmission competence.

The modern medical world is reasonable to want to see the proof first. They know what they can do, as they live in it.

I don`t think I said that they are invisible, I said that you cannot see them, usually. Maybe in the future science will enable this too.You can`t accept that there are still things that science hasn`t discovered?

As for psychology, EVERYTHING is in my head anyway, as well as EVERYTHING is in your head too.And thanks for calling me a sucker.

Victor, I`m not trying to write off any medical miracles or something. Western medicine is still amazing, after all, I think it is one of the reasons the life expectancy got higher.I`m just saying that western medicine might be better for some things and eastern for others. I think it would be great if they would work together...

I think that I basically agree with what you are saying though, it`s just that I don`t need proof. But then again, I`m not part of the modern medical world.

A: show me medical proof.B: do you need medical proof to believe it?A: yes.B: well the medical field doesn't know everything.A: so you have no proof then?B: I don't need it since millions of other people believed it for thousands of years.A: I see, but for thousands of years, billions of people thought the earth was flat, and if you went to the edge you'd fall into a kind of purgatory.B: {cricket sounds}A: ...which some could argue, they were half-right.

believe what makes you feel safer.

and the most important thing to remember with the death touch is, be careful not to touch yourself on your meridians....it might cause aura blindness.

Ed,print off this clinical explanation and take it to a surgeon familiar with carotid artery surgery... then come back and tell me what's wrong with it...

Peripheral neuropathy is a general term referring to disorders of peripheral nerves. The peripheral nervous system is made up of the nerves that branch out of the spinal cord to all parts of the body. The Vagus nerve is the major nerve next to the spinal cord itself. The term “vagus” is latin for (“wandering”), which the nerve does throughout the body.It is certainly possible to injure a nerve during surgery, as well as from a blunt force impact trauma specifically targeted to the area where compression would cause the same effect or damage. The vagus nerve exits the brainstem through the jugular foramen of the skull and follows the carotid artery down to the esophagus where it courses along the esophagus through the diaphragm. The vast majority of inadvertent surgical injuries to the vagus nerve occur as the result of neck surgery, in particular carotid artery surgery or thyroid surgery.

Typically, injury to the vagus nerve only results in hoarseness if it is not severely damaged, however it also continues from the neck to the stomach, intestines, heart, bladder, and lower intestinal tract. It originates, however, by exiting the brain where it is attached at the medulla oblongata, a part of the brain stem where epileptic seizures occur.

While the vagus nerve is not normally a concern for illness, injury to this particular nerve (also known as the Tenth Crainial Nerve) can have devastating long term effects. The vagus nerve supplies nerve fibers to the throat and larynx, trachea, windpipe, lungs, heart, esophagus, most of the intestinal track, and has significant effects on blood pressure, heart rhythm, and a host of other spasmodic problems in the body. Long term effects of damage can range “all over the map”, causing illness, dissipation, and death.

The most common problem caused from vagus nerve damage, is gastroparesis, when the nerves to the stomach stop functioning properly and food does not move through the digestive tract. The vagus nerve controls the muscles of the stomach and intestines, and when not functioning properly, the movement of food through the system is slowed or stopped, often causing bowel restrictions.

The vagus and sympathetic nerves originate in the brain in the cardiovascular control centre. When a person is resting, the vagus nerve is active and sends “slow down” messages to the heart. When you become active or stressed, the sympathetic nerves send “speed up” messages to the heart by releasing adrenaline, which makes the heart beat faster and work harder. Disruption of the vagus nerve and sympathetic nerves can cause a disruption in the supply of adrenaline causing abnormal heartbeats, known as ventricular fibrillation. Prolonged activity of this type causes stress damage to the heart. The vagus nerve protects the heart from too much adrenaline. Damaged, the heart is subject to an oversupply of adrenaline and ensuing heart attack.

Damage to the vagus nerve can cause pain and problems all over the body. Radiated pain in the sternum, all over the chest, and down the back, bladder control problems, and choking problems from loss of the gag reflex. Current medical practice is to attempt to treat some epileptic problems with VNS Therapy systems, but they are only used on the left side of the vagus nerve below where the superior and inferior cardiac branches separate from the vagus nerve, and only by physicians trained in the surgical techniques of VNS systems and the vagus nerve anatomy. Mistakes in this surgery can cause any of the above listed problems of clinical significance.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

I said used, not believed. But anyway... How can you tell that in 50 years they won`t "discover" that all this is true? It`s true that people Believed Earth was flat. But I can use this too and say: "People believed Earth was flat, and now people believe that there is no chi and TCM is false."...

My "beliefs" about TCM have no influence on my feelings of safety.

Quote:and the most important thing to remember with the death touch is, be careful not to touch yourself on your meridians.

Ed, I'm not sure, but I don't think I've ever used the Dim Mak theory as a "chi strikes" argument. If I did, I was mis-speaking. All of the Dim Mak strikes are to specific points on the body that can cause all kinds of disruptions in the body's electrical systems and control functions... that's why the "long term effect" was included in the paperwork. As I said before, there is a lot of medical knowledge that's available now that wasn't when these tactics were originally developed, so there are treatments for some of them that work just fine if diagnosed correctly.

I'll send you some more information later.

WT

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

here is what I'm getting at, the term 'Dim Mak' is a chinese term and is based upon traditional chinese medicine theory (which WT and kosh have eluded to supporting).

this leads one to believe they are basing their Dim Mak skill upon knowledge of the chinese meridian system which places target areas along these pathways.

I'm calling that total bunk ...but whoa wait a sec...they weren't saying their Dim mak was based on the ancient meridian system, they base their Dim Mak upon the modern nerve, artery and physical anatomy strikes.

ok, so you are deciding to use an old foreign word that was so named based entirely on the 'energy' view of how the body worked, instead of just saying 'pressure point striking'.

Ed, lol, what explaining? I did say everything is connected? So by striking a nerve you also affect the chi flow... Often nerves are where the meridians are supposed to be. You could see nerves as physical manifestations of meridians.

Quote:and that point also falls on a meridian?

so there are two separate principles, yes? Dim Mak is the striking on a meridian, believed to be a vulnerable point on a chi pathway.

and then there is pressure point striking which is based on physical human anatomy. is that correct?

For me, all of this falls under dim mak, there are just more levels to it. I think that both principles are based on human anatomy.

Quote:in either of those methods, a particular area it hit hard (or pressed hard) at perhaps an approximate angle? is that also correct?

Well I think yes, but the angle might depend on what effect you want to have.

Quote:here is what I'm getting at, the term 'Dim Mak' is a chinese term and is based upon traditional chinese medicine theory (which WT and kosh have eluded to supporting).

I don`t understand this. Could you explain what you mean? Do you mean that I eluded to support chinese medicine theory?

Quote:I'm calling that total bunk ...but whoa wait a sec...they weren't saying their Dim mak was based on the ancient meridian system, they base their Dim Mak upon the modern nerve, artery and physical anatomy strikes.

ok, so you are deciding to use an old foreign word that was so named based entirely on the 'energy' view of how the body worked, instead of just saying 'pressure point striking'.pressure point striking implies modern anatomy knowledge.'Dim Mak' does not.why mix and match the two terms?

Good question, I never thought of it this way. For me both meant the same thing, I forgot others may not think so. Hmm, I guess I could maybe say that pressure point fighting is part of Dim Mak?Anyway like I said, I think Dim Mak has many levels, so you could look pressure points as a more physical level based on western anatomy?

Quote: this leads one to believe they are basing their Dim Mak skill upon knowledge of the chinese meridian system which places target areas along these pathways.

Well Ed, I guess you've got me... I have to admit using the meridian points as "targets" because they are significantly simpler to locate and discuss than telling someone the name of every muscle and nerve and artery in the body. Telling someone to hit "neigwan" with a block is easier than telling them to hit the median nerve at the location where the median nerve crosses between the radius and ulna and the nerve is exposed to a "bone strike". If they know "neigwan" is on the inner wrist, about three paragraphs of conversation is unnecessary.

Now, that being said, I think if you'll take a TCM book and trace the meridians, you'll find that the "meridian points" are all much like ST-9 turned out to be... a point where the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems elicit control or effects on different vital body organs. If I told you to hit the vagus nerve in the chest, would you know how or where? If I told you to hit the conception vessel at mid-chest with a one-knuckle fist, you'd be able to figure it out.

I've told you as long as I've been on these boards that "pressure points" weren't the great panacea or mystery that they're blown up to be. It's just good Kyusho Jitsu (methods of hitting the body).

Much of the Dim Mak technique is in knowing what's where inside the body, and hitting at an angle to attack that particular weakness (hence, the "angles"). Often, it is to rupture a blood vessel or destroy a lymphatic gland and cause an accumulation of lymphatic fluid. Using the proper fist structure, pressure, or in some cases "stomp" to hit a point causes the effect you're looking for is where the "science" of Dim Mak resides.

The reason it was called "Poison Hand" or "Death Touch" was because at the time it developed, not everyone knew how to drain a hematoma, or had paddles to shock a heart attack victim. CPR wasn't one of the skills in most Dim Mak schools. Strikes to the points on the body would result in death, often many weeks or months later from the lack of proper medical attention. The methods still work, there is just better medicine to treat the effects, probably saving many of the victims from dying.

Quote: they weren't saying their Dim mak was based on the ancient meridian system

I hate to burst your bubble, but the "ancient meridian system" was developed much like modern western medicine, and while the terminology and treatment might be different, the science is still pretty solid. You say it's bunk... but To quote you "I think there are about a couple of hundred million Chinese that would disagree with you" (from our thread about defining martial arts)

I pretty much knew where this would lead if the thread was kept alive long enough, and I'm glad that you can see that everything isn't bunk just because you don't have the depth of understanding to correlate it to your own thinking. That is why I asked the question about how you selected targets in karate... you have to know that "hitting some places" is more effective than "hitting others "unless the hitter is dumb as a stump. ( I have a better chance of knocking somebody out hitting the hinge of the jaw than punching their shoulder, for example.)

Dim Mak is for real, and it's got scientific backup. I do, however, think there is a language barrier... two cultures separated by a common language... (borrowed that from George Bernard Shaw)

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

I think I get it now. thanks for hanging in there. here is my take on it now, see if this is a more accurate view and correct me:

'Dim Mak' was so named after an old Chinese system of pressure point striking, since the medical science knowledge wasn't there to explain why some places hurt more and did more damage then others, they explained it in terms of meridians circulating Chi thru the body.

what they were actually trying to describe is what we now know as pressure points. Overlay the meridian system on top of a pressure point map, and it completes the picture of the old and new understanding.

now, the assumption goes...if the ancient Chinese got the points and effects correct, but only got the explanation wrong - then when their notes tell us 'here is a point which causes death or delayed death', we can assume this is from imperical knowledge (I could buy they would have conducted tests on expendables for that knowledge).

so, by overlaying the two peices of knowledge (asumption the points have been tested at one time, plus the modern knowledge of anatomy), we are able to construct a justification for this method.

right so far? there are still three questions.

1. Is there an agreed upon defacto standard pressure point striking reference? if not, why? and is the standard based on test data with various subjects? (I realize not the death claims, just the knockouts). is so, why wasn't THAT book recommended to the thread?

2. are the odds of hitting just the right point during a struggle, worth the practice? and during practice, what are the indicators that you are doing it correctly? pain as an indicator? I've been hit in the neck a few times during pracice from people who weren't aiming for any pinpoint other than the side of my neck...they didn't even strike that hard and it hurt -actually, it's pretty hard to find ANY area on the neck that doesn't hurt when you hit it. you could say your neck is just a rats nest of nerves and blood vessles. do I need a map to tell me where to hit? nope. if I have a neck shot, I'm taking it with either my hand, fist, wrist, forearm or elbow...whatever makes sense at the time.

3. can you locate points thru clothing? I just aim for vital areas...there are areas easily found by relative position on the body. tell me you can pick a target between either the 3rd and 4th rib thru clothing of an opponent you've never trained with before and I'd say you are dreaming...you will aim at the side of the body just like I do. What makes the training more a waste of time, is if you subconsciencely learn to 'aim an inch below the org patch on the gi'. lol well, it's probably the same amount of chance your assailent will be the same size and donned that way for you to zap him.

I was wrong to think Dim Mak and pressure point striking were two separate things. I can see with the confusion how sheistas would clean up on this subject.

last question, do grapplers train in-depth Dim Mak/pressure points as regular training or do they train vital area targeting like in most other Arts?

Ed, you're trying to rationalize/explain one in terms of the other and you can't, simply because TCM is a complete paradigm shift from western medicine. There is some overlap in terms of the explanatory model, but there is no corresponding constructs in one or the other. Hence the use of the term "complementary medicine" to describe "traditional" medicine - which BTW, includes other holistic therapies.

TCM is based on a holistic view of the person, whereas modern western medicine tends to be reductionistic in approach. Oddly enough, early western medicine during the Golden Age of Greece (Hippocrates etc.), originally viewed the human body in holistic terms.

For example, there is no such thing as a pancreas, or endocrine system, or nervous system in TCM. Yet, we know that these exist in western medicine. Western medicine views the gallbladder as an appendage that can be removed, whereas TCM views it as a vital part of an organic (bio-energetic) system related to other organs.

Quite simply, you can't compare 2 different paradigms using a common frame of reference.

Dim Mak (Mandarin = dian mai or dian xue) literally means to touch the "pulse". In TCM, the blood and qi is closely related, one supports the other. In western terms, you could consider it to be the interaction of blood, enzymes, neuropeptides and other bio-chemicals, along with the nervous system and what else, but it would be "incomplete" in TCM terms since everything is related to each other, dependent/co-dependent/inter-dependent upon each other in some way.

So you see the difficulty?

Whilst western medicine and the general approach can be helpful in some ways, TCM can also be helpful in other ways.

Being Chinese, I'd swear by a body of knowledge that is over 5000 years old. But by the same token, I also appreciate the advances in Western medicine and the knowledge it presents.

I think you need to understand each for what it is, and appreciate both for its strengths and shortcomings.

An excellent observation. I think the issue is trying to explain something based on a different paradigm (dim mak/TCM), using a specific frame of reference (i.e. western medical knowledge).

The best way I can answer the question is this:

TCM views the body as a closed-loop 'energy' state which can be affected by internal (e.g. emotions etc.) and external influences (e.g. environment, weather, air, food, etc.). Pressure points (i.e. acu-points) along the meridians can affect the internal energy state of the body, and conversely, the internal energy state can be reflected in the surface areas of the body, like localized pain/tenderness at specific points.

Since there is no equivalent construct for meridians in western medicine, how can you describe what functional differences there are between pressing/poking an acu-point, versus a nerve point in the western medical sense?

While there are some locations on the body can be fatally struck, and which can be explained in western medical terms, the explanation in TCM is quite different, simply because TCM explains it as an "upset in the equilibrium of the body's 'energy' state".

E.g. if you have a blocked nose like from a cold, massaging LI20 clears the sinus and opens the nasal passages. I don't know how or why it works but it is extremely effective. I don't know if there is any GP out there that can tell you why or how it works. (If there are, I'd really like to hear what their theory is).

Eyrie,I think we've finally made some progress with Ed. It's like trying to explain a Chinese paradigm to an American using Japanese as the common language...

I think you hit on the problems that exist between trying to explain the TCM and Western medicine provinces, and without stirring it up again, I'd like to explain to Ed that there's also a further breakdown in which one study is "hitting the points" (raised places) and the other "hitting the cavaties", again based on TCM.

Ed, it's hard for someone who only knows the thinking of western medicine to ever understand treating asthma by massaging pressure points or applying moxibustion to places totally unrelated to the lungs (in western theory). I think Eyrie made the best explanation of why it's difficult to download when you attribute "target area" to a whole different system of thinking.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

maybe it works because you believe it works? the real test would be if it works for 99.9% of the people. I think one of the contentions of why western science has accepted yet not practiced TCM, is because the practices are based upon metaphysical beliefs and 'proven' by pragmatic/regressive fallacy.

further, I'm starting to see how the blending in understanding of TCM's 'meridians' and modern anatomy has been force fit and overlayed into the current Dim Mak method in order to be sold as an ancient system that works. That would be fine...if it did work consistantly and was testable, but it's not.

also, eyrie, in the neijin thread, you lead me to believe that chi is nothing nonphysical, but rather is a kind of complex relationship in activity between center of gravity and body dynamics...but yet here you are basically saying chi is an independant circulatory energy via meridians which are beyond modern medical science.

which is it?

btw, modern medical science has been around and evolving since when? about 200 years say. in those 200 years, I would argue magnitudes of advances have taken place than the previous 2000 years. kosh: life expectancy is a DIRECT result of modern science, not just 'part of why'. ....to acknowledge otherwise is highly suspect in where people are getting their ideas.

Quote:maybe it works because you believe it works? the real test would be if it works for 99.9% of the people. I think one of the contentions of why western science has accepted yet not practiced TCM, is because the practices are based upon metaphysical beliefs and 'proven' by pragmatic/regressive fallacy.

I'm sure you will forgive my reluctance to prove anything to you... try it the next time before you hit the pseudoephedrine and see if it works for you.

Quote:

further, I'm starting to see how the blending in understanding of TCM's 'meridians' and modern anatomy has been force fit and overlayed into the current Dim Mak method in order to be sold as an ancient system that works. That would be fine...if it did work consistantly and was testable, but it's not.

One of the difficulties of TCM is looking at the individual's presentation of symptoms, since the treatment might dictate a different form of therapy (acupunture, herbs, moxibustion etc.) and can vary greatly from individual to individual, since TCM aims to treat root cause of illness from a holistic perspective, and not the symptoms as is predominant in western medicine.

To confuse you further, going back to LI20, if it doesn't work for you, it may be that something else is unbalanced and you may have to boost your lung "energy" by borrowing from the spleen in the generating cycle. It kinda depends...

Quote:

have a look at a study done in 1990 by the NCAHF (National Council Against Health Fraud)

A "study" by an organization whose board of directors and office bearers are primarily engaged in the practice of western medicine. Forgive me if I say it's somewhat biased.

Quote:

also, eyrie, in the neijin thread, you lead me to believe that chi is nothing nonphysical, but rather is a kind of complex relationship in activity between center of gravity and body dynamics...but yet here you are basically saying chi is an independant circulatory energy via meridians which are beyond modern medical science.

From the TCM perspective, qi is a co-dependent state. What we were discussing in the neijin thread has to do with martial application of "internally" generated force (that's what nei-jin literally means), which is completely different to what is being discussed here. Of course qi (as in breath) can assist the use of "internal" force, but on its own does very little, from a martial perspective.

BTW, I don't profess to know everything.... it's still very much a longitudinal learning exercise for me....

I don't know, with thousands of techniqe studies in our repetiore, all of which work, it's enough to keep one busy. Of course having a surgeon in our program for a long time, I've learned not to worry about what I'm not trained to deal with, such as medical knowledge.

If the technique works, does the why, if you can really explain it, really matter?

BTW, from long experience it's enough to learn how to make do correctly.

I guess the difference is whether undersanding the underlying reason a technique works is more important than the study of the infinite ways techniques can be used effectively.

This is where I have to disagree with you and underline Eyrie's and Ed's focus on knowing the why.

If you do not have a good conceptual understanding of why, then it becomes increasingly hard to intelectually extrapolate different techniques, or appreciate the similarity between apparently dissimilar techniques or applications.

If the theory is sound...say electromagnetic theory, gravitational theory, evolution, then you can plot scientific paramaters to associate other ideas and focus more clearly on the uses of these things.

If you do not know why, then yes, you can use what you have, but you risk losing things because there are no convenient ways to categorize and say that these things fall under the same idea.

Quote:have a look at a study done in 1990 by the NCAHF (National Council Against Health Fraud)

Ed, you were doing so well... and now, you've fallen right back into that "myopic skepticism" (spelled it right this time) again.I read that report and the names of the "reports" it was based on. Talk about "predisposition", that set of conclusions was forgone before the report ever got past the title.

Maybe it's just me, but my doctor has recommended acupuncture for relief of several problems related to my wife's cancer, and has back-up by the American Cancer Society brochures, so I'm guessing that there's an agenda from that "non-profit organization" you are touting as the great "fraud protectors". We get any kind of drugs or treatments available through our insurance, so it's a little deceptive for the doc to be sending us for "alternative treatments" if they aren't effective, wouldn't you say?

Everybody's got an opinion, and the medical community never has agreed on anything as long as I can remember, so it makes sense that you can find "dissenting opinions" on anything medical... especially if it drives income to other places.

I also read their "report" on chiropractic, and it was pure bunk (if I may borrow a word from you). I know, from personal experience that chiropractic techniques work, because I've had many injuries treated and others "discovered" by the chiropractor that slipped past the medical doctors. You can label me the "kool aid drinker" if you want to, but the kool aid has fixed a lot of problems in the past, and is currently treating two crunched disks in my back that my medical doctor only wanted to hand me a prescription for, and send me home to go into a drug coma and ignore.

Maybe TCM might just possibly not have money as their motive, which really screws up the healthcare system in this country. I'd like to know who's on the board of that non profit, as well. I'm sure it's a group of hard core medical practitioners that don't believe in anything they've never experienced themselves... sound familiar???

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

You have to recognize when I started training nobody I trianed with suggested kata techniques had applications. So decades of work, and meeting a few with real information, led to the state of the art I practice.

As for the underlying mechanims, the Surgeon who'se trained with us has given many of his explanations (and I do understand them) but I also realize how much casual nonsence can be uttered when you don't know that the leg bone is connected to the foot bone.

Having a finite amount of time I've chosen to focus on what I do, and so have the people I've associated with.

Our manner of study shows what can and ought happen, as well as suggest alternatives when B doesn't follow A.

My study has been unending, for myself and for my students my focus is to try and teach them as much as I've learnt as possible.

Trying to go further isn't in the cards, and especially as Doc has made it quite clear, unless I have time for a lifetime of additional study. I did once think it was possible to do it all, then Doc came over to the house and took a look at the books I was using and started throwing them in the trash. His logic is unassailable, if a text has the liver on the wrong side of the body (a Bagua text that one) you can't trust one word of the rest. And that's true.

The modern MD, doesn't read a anatomy colouring book, instead they spend years in disection and then in practical tutoring.

That's the problem how to seriously acquire the knowlege you suggest is worth studying.

I have become quite the pragmatist, if my technique drops somebody consistently, I'll focus on making it more correct.

hey...you can't be sceptic of the sceptics! lol seriously, that is some solid reasoning I appreciate WT. and of course a group of doctors banding together into a 'council' who probably underwrite perscription drug companies have to looked at with equal scepticism when considering motives. heck, scepticism ITSELF is a business. it can even be in the realm of fictional scepticism and passed off as literature with a movie deal in mind (ref: 'DaVinci Code').

so I agree with you the link I included has to be taken with the same amount of salt as proponents of the practice. It's a slippery road this subject, but I think I have it figured out. instead of following others view which have bias, motive, myopia and/or agenda...even if it's well intentioned (which isn't always apparent) - we each need to think for ourselves.

butterfly, going back to your point "If you do not have a good conceptual understanding of why, then it becomes increasingly hard to intelectually extrapolate different techniques, or appreciate the similarity between apparently dissimilar techniques or applications."

I'm not sure what you're saying. In most cases any defense can stop any attack. But it's never been hard to extrapolate different techniques, and it's not 'intellectual' rather its hands on.

You simply take a technique and work it against different attacks, with different angles too. And you define a technique as you will, A kata section, a sequence of kata sections, a sub segement of kata sections, or if you want to live big, you pick random sections of different kata and merge them together.

Then hand's on if the application drops/ breaks/ or strongly slows the attacker it works.

Nothing intellectual about it, just using a framework.

Of course this is only the first step, once you build a pool of technique applications there are many steps beyond.

As for appreciating similarity, you learn that by experience. A simple example is all of Okinawa's kata are filled with arm bars, in essence it's the universal Okinawan locking technique, regardless of systems or style of striking.

In time this study yields the underlying principles of movment and application, which unlocks all the rest.

Sorry for being vague. I am big on getting explanations for what I am doing and why...call it my American Half.

And I understand what you are talking about with respect to the "framework" that you have built up of associated experience. However, whenever I get a "hands-on" trial with a new technique, I have to compare it to what I already know.

If I have a conceptual understanding of say, just a straight right with the requisite body mechanics and am told this is why you do what you do and then am shown the technique. I therefore will be less tempted to just "reflect" the technique and see that it looks sort of the same and am more disposed to do the strike with mechanical correctness and thus gain the same sort of appearance, but working it from the concept...not just imitation. Maybe this is just me. Similarly, how to unbalance an opponent, angles necessary for tai-sabaki and your body alignment while doing these things, etc.

With a conceptual model...be it meridians or whatever...at least you have an idea of where to hit and why. If there is some functional lack in the integrity of that information, I may be adjusting my technique wrongly... basing it off incorrect information. Which begs the question of correct follow up techniques that are based off of expected opponent reaction and body placement.

As an aside, this is where a lot trouble comes from by those who make up explanations to correspond to techniques. Then tell students after they have done something exactly as instructed, but found it lacking, that their ignorance got in the way of performance.

I was speaking solely in terms of meridan and associated theory. I certainly have principles I and my friends/instructors have worked out, are demonstratable and repeatable, that underly our techniques and they are part of the instruction, at a certain point of training.

The underlying meridian theory is more interesting when you really look at how some of the chinese systems approach it.

My friend who's studied Northern Eagle Claw over 30 years, and believe me they really work 'vital points' with their locks and strikes, tells me that meridian theory has nothing to do with the system. His instructor, Shum Leung, shows a chart of points to strike (front and back) in his book and that's all there is.

The system works the pain, but does so through specific hands on training, the intense 2 person sets that lead into eagle claw sparring, anything goes and a round is never over till it's locked, and each round must use a different lock.

As tactical in their way as my instruction is in mine. No underlying theory, just pain when it works right, and continual practice to make it happen.

And as to where to hit and why, anyplace that you can get to. Everyplace you strike has an effect of some sort. Practice and Experience give you clues, but if we're only talking about impact, there is almost no place that cannot be used, and striking is rarely a simple single technique.

Are you suggesting that some places are more appropriate to strike and are a better choice than another place? Is that a distinction that should be made?

Quote:Are you suggesting that some places are more appropriate to strike and are a better choice than another place? Is that a distinction that should be made?

My studies have pointed to a yes answer to that question - to a degree. For instance if aiming to hit someone in the general area of their face, I usually go for the nose as opposed to the center of their forehead.

Ditto for the kidneys as opposed to the shoulder blades. And so on. Everyplace will have an effect, but some more than others.

Similarly, I agree with Butterfly on the "mechanics" aspect as well. Some techniques will be much more difficult to do if you do not have a grasp of how the move is meant to work (as opposed to what it looks like). Many sweeps and throws fall into this category (hell, most grappling techniques), becoming difficult if not impossible to execute if the conceptual understanding (how/when, etc) is not there.

Even basic punching can benefit from understanding the mechanics and interactions involved with the opponent. I would rather hit someone moving into my punch than catch them moving away.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Ed, from a cursory look at the material, it was published in 1990, and there's a lot gone on in the last 16 years medically. I think more mainstream doctors are accepting of the "alternatives" to western medicine now, and aren't quite so quick (as these guys were) to call everyone else a quack.

I agree that we should be cautious of material if we don't understand it or its origin, but something that gets passed over and is basic to ALL arguments like this is that "the body is the body"... it isn't different for me and something entirely different for you. All the points are in the same place, all the nerves and organs are (hopefully) located in the same places, and the skeletal structure is the same... so whether you're calling it "pressure points", "Dim Mak", "Dim Tseuh", or whatever, if it works, it works.

Now I bail off the bus when we start the "chi ball" theory of attack and defense, but I have friends who swear that they can "throw energy" and do all sorts of other "magic tricks" with their ki, but I've had some of my own experiences that I couldn't explain, so I'm not going to shout them down for it. I might not believe them, but I just let it go... that's probably why we're still friends.

In reading some of the banter between Victor and Butterfly, I noticed that they are more concerned with "consistency in training and body mechanics" on this matter, which really doesn't have anything to do with Dim Mak. I do agree with Victor, however, that it doesn't matter how you explain what you're doing as long as it works consistently. The second part of that, Victor, is to make sure you pass it on to someone... it might help avoid these 8 page arguments...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

I too want to understand why what I am doing does or does not work. I also need to know because even in practice, while I seek to do no harm, I am causing discomfort and sometimes a KO. I want to work safely. Generally, I look to western med for answers and framework.

We all started with the TCM and I have spent lots of money on books from TCM point of view. I'm moving and I discarded and gave them away. They don't help me understand what I am doing. I understand about not having a lifetime to acquire a physician's background. Fortunately, there are physicians in the martial arts and they are willing to distill what they know into books that I can understand. In Kyusho International, we have a physician group in Mexico and they will be publishing their original research on kyusho. I'm very certain that along with their more scholarly work, there will be companion literature that I can learn from.

I am also a fan of chiropractic. I myself have had my spine problems diagnosed by the chiropractor who then sent me to a back surgeon for a consult. The surgeon said horay for my chiropractor and advised that I move forward with the chiropractor's treatment plan since it sounded lots better than surgery. It was indeed very much better. I probably would not have been able to pursue martial arts had I had the surgery.

That delayed death touch stuff, a few pages back? During my study of Kyusho, I've seen the rules change a lot. At first Master Dillman would say practice on one side of the body only during any one session, limit the time to about 15-20 min a week and that 5 points could cause death. Since the points could add up within a 20 min. time frame, that made practice look pretty scarey. We weren't supposed to hit people over 40 years old and the list goes on. We have grown a lot since those times. Praxis challenges myth. We all learn and move forward.

Could you cause death? There are lots of explanations/suggestions of what could be hit and how to cause death. If you want to kill someone though, you'd be hitting whole lots harder than we hit in practice. Also, from a practical point of view, what do I want with a delayed death touch? If I want to kill someone, it is probably because I'm in a life threatening situation. I need to kill the perpetrator NOW! Or at least disfunction him enough so that I can get away now.

Those are my saved up opinions from this very diverse and interesting thread.

Funny thing is I have specific center of the forehead strikes from my aikido/tjimande/eagle claw studies, that have extremely specific uses. Of course by strikes I never intended they were one strike does all, just they are tools in conjunction with specific sets of responses.

And speaking of shoulder blades, they have their uses too.

Look as you know when I was focusing on principles I was referring to the specific meridian channel stuff.

There are principles and there are principles. Techniques are not executed in a vacuum.

It's obvious if a choice presents itself (either through serendipity or skill of the set up response) we'll choose what we feel is best, but there are such unlimited choices.

The shoulder blade versus the kidney area is an example of choosing a strike so the response will result in the person moving to a specific space, because you want them there for a perceived strategic response.

Of course if you have say the opportunity to choose kidney versus shoulder blade, you also have a huge number of other choices. What are you striking with? a punch, a single knuckle strike, a palm strike, a finger tip strike or a leg technique.

I can understand your desire, but in the end it's technique execution that matters, IMO, and appropriate training to utilize that execution. Which btw, is often requires years and years to do.

From the surgeon who trained with us I have more than a fair idea of what certain results yield.

For example the whole myth of blood chokes, pure BS everywhere. As if any of you can choke the carotid enough to shut off the brains blood flow. The reason of course is there are plenty of secondary vessels that supply blood to the brain, and even if your fingers of steel could shut off the carotid arteries, it means nothing because in routine neck surgery, they do clamp the carotid arteries off, and keep the patient awake and aware the entire time. Because the brain has adequate blood.

No the 'blood chokes' really are carotid sinus manipulation that causes the heart to stop beating, not shutting off the brain.

And I have a whole ton of books in many systems keeping the blood choke mythology alive. Because it sounds reasonable.

I've offered plenty of times that Doc should pull the appropriate underlying science together for us, but as a practicing surgeon, he as more important things to do with his time. And he rather likes the techniques we do, for he switched over from another system to join us.

In a perfect world, we would all train to become surgeons, and then become serious black belts and then we might make it mesh.

But in the real world I live in, you do what you can, and I'd rather do.. so I try a bit, sometimes better than others.

I don't know, with thousands of techniqe studies in our repetiore, all of which work, it's enough to keep one busy. Of course having a surgeon in our program for a long time, I've learned not to worry about what I'm not trained to deal with, such as medical knowledge.

If the technique works, does the why, if you can really explain it, really matter?

BTW, from long experience it's enough to learn how to make do correctly.

I guess the difference is whether undersanding the underlying reason a technique works is more important than the study of the infinite ways techniques can be used effectively.

Victor, I appreciate what you're saying and generally agree - study of ways of using technique effectively is more important that understanding why it works. I just perfer to understand why it works, because it helps me understand how to make it work more effectively. The same goes for knowing where to hit and how.

Having said that, aikido has few formal techniques, since one technique is the "same" as all techniques, so I tend not to focus too much on 100s or 1000s of "techniques", but rather on technical execution.

My reasons for studying TCM is from the healing perspective. I'm not particularly interested in knowing how to hit specific points to kill or make someone puke or wet his pants - that's the easy bit.

The hard bit is reversing the damage caused as a result of such trauma.

Having a good knowledge of physical anatomy can be handy - knowing how the twist a joint to separate tendon and muscle from bone, or how to pop a shoulder out is useful to know.

But knowing how to pop a dislocated shoulder back in, or how to restore a person's state of well-being, for me, is a far more useful thing to know.

No the 'blood chokes' really are carotid sinus manipulation that causes the heart to stop beating, not shutting off the brain.

In medical terminology, stimulation (compression) of the carotid sinus triggers the carotid baroreceptor reflex which causes a coronary artery spasm, which can lead to the occlusion of the distal bed of the posterolateral branch of the right coronary artery. This can present as vasospastic or variant angina and results in a sudden drop in blood pressure, followed by syncopation.

Just wanted say its been an interesting read and its great to see some great sweeping generalisations Ed. Oooo and you recomended Fajing didn't ya? I remember a few sweeping generalisations you made about that concept a while back.

Eyrie, just wanted to say some of your observations have been very much in accordance with my own. The Western mind trying to grasp the Eastern is something that I've been having a lot of difficulty with in my own TCM studies.

I see it as the other way round, I see the sweeping statements and continued use of the word "bunk" that puts those with the information being sought from giving it out? Dunno, different strokes and all that.

Dim Mak books? Ready for a bombshell... I personally don't see Dim Mak or Kyusho as anything but the subject of intellectual research and something fun to play with. Although I'm a firm believer in the theory behind it, I have yet to meet anyone who can apply it practically. I'm actually with you on fact that in combat we should train general specific targets rather than dime sized targets.

But I still thinking learning those dime sized targets and the effects is highly important. Take Spleen 10 as a great example, just above the inside of the knee. Get the angle and direction correct and you'll buckle someones knee easily with a single finger. Smash a full power knee or kick into the general area at the same angle and it'll go even better results. So books I'd recomend would be Dillmans and the DSI's. Use the points as hints for you power delivery and then practice delivering shed loads of power in at that angle. Studying Wave forms/Fajing/loose power/any other serious type of power generation methods will mean once landed you shouldn't need to do anything afterwards be it fire melts metal, metal cuts water or water gets you wet etc...

Seriously, mum was a registered nurse... so I guess something rubbed off there...???

It's not hard to understand, it's close to what Victor said... except he left out the really big medical words.

Basically, press the carotid sinus, and you cause the person to faint and lose consciousness. This loss of consciousness (syncope) is caused by a narrowing of the vascular system, which is triggered by the involuntary contraction of smooth muscle, and initiated by pressure receptors in the skin.

BTW, ST9 (at the bifurcation of the carotid artery) is used in TCM for palpation of the pulse, and is used to establish the patient's prognosis. TCM disgnosis is based on feeling the quality and strength of the pulse to identify internal disharmonies/dysfunction.

Remember, TCM considers the whole body as "states" of equilibrium - and the approach seeks to address causative dysfunction rather than treating symptoms.

The more interesting question is how the ancients figured out the relationship of ST9 and its effect on the heart? Why stomach? Perhaps because the cholestrol-laden crap people eat can affect their arteries??

The Dim Mak/kyusho is an effective adjunct to augment skills and not a replacement. But it is a viable adjunct!!! I was not allowed to study Kyusho until I passed my Shodan test. Now Shodan didn't make me an expert in anything but it did mean that my school expected us to have at least executable skills BEFORE we were allowed to use Kyusho. Now I use Kyusho pretty much when ever I have to use physical control and restraint techniques at work. THEY ARE PRACTICAL. I wouldn't be able to execute my techniques against men without it. I wish I could come out of the closet so to speak about Kyusho at work and train the people I work with. When I have shown useful applications in techniques that we are allowed to use, (or sneak in when necessary)my staff agrees that the Kyusho makes a lot of difference.

Gavin, forgive my direct way. it does serve a purpose though. by using words like bunk and nonsense, etc it seems to wake people up and give their view and/or correct me. The rest just read and aren't willing to take the risk of being wrong sometimes. I don't mind being wrong, I don't even mind looking dumb...as long as I learn something in the process - it's all good.

study of location and angle of strikes for controlling the immediate reaction of an opponent makes sense to me.

when people talk of 'delayed injury', death, time of day consideration, disrupting 'energy flow', imaginary channels within the body, pinpoint accuracy with untestable results, etc thats when I call it bunk and will continue to do so until proof makes it's way to me.

I personally don't think we're likely to see any evidence that proves the existence for this 'energy' within our life times. I also don't suscribe to the fact that my belief in this 'energy' is based a faith alone either. My belief is based on experiences and my interpretations of such experiences.

A little over a year and half ago I was a firm skeptic and believed purely in the physical. Over this period I've been introduced to various thoughts and experienced various things that have completely altered my perception.

As Eyrie said its a completely different paradigm than we are accustomed to in the west. Our approach is clinical in the east it is observational. They see something happening and explain it. These observations are based on over 2500 years worth of 'clinical' observation. Whether their observations can be explained via MWM is neither here nor there, TCM does have an effect and it has been documented in hundreds of studies. Could it all be in the mind? Absolutely, because in TCM there isn't the distinction between the affairs of the mind and those of the body. The west is just starting to catch onto this one. Many physical disorders have a direct impact on the mental well being of person and various mental disorders also have an impact on the physical.

I personally like the TCM way of thinking, if the theory works why change it? They just accept it for it is. Once you start looking at both approaches side by side you'll a lot of correlation. Take for example the way Chi flows through the various internal organs and the times it peaks within a said organ. Now look at the MWM perspective at when these organs function and it matches the TCM point of view. There was a study I was reading a while back on children who suffer from asthma and it noted that a large majority had difficulty sleeping in the early morning. Lung energy peaks in the early morning... might be coincidence, a problem of the lungs manifesting itself during the time of the lung meridians peak?

As I said, I do believe fully in the theory, I just don't buy the hype about using the cycles against anyone other than compliant people. Using individual targets in real life situations, yes, I fully believe its possible. K.O using three or four points fueled by adrenaline and with the energetic differences of the body because of adrenaline, I affraid I haven't seen done. But I think thats going a little too far off topic... actually what was the original topic????

Quote:I personally like the TCM way of thinking, if the theory works why change it? They just accept it for it is.

To borrow eyrie's words:

Quote:I just perfer to understand why it works, because it helps me understand how to make it work more effectively.

I think I can explain my source of sceptism.

consider: WHAT IF...TCM gained empirical knowledge on this subject by trial and error without understanding the 'why'. thats not unreasonable right? I mean, can't you picture ancient Chinese experimenting on what makes a body tick and what makes it sick? It is still useful knowledge since it is based on the experience of trial and error. and I would agree with that. 'it just works' is a completely valid reason to keep doing something... particularly in healing and MA. To underline the point, one other event, which is horrible, but it happened that human medical experimentation data during WW2 led to some important medical theories later.

now consider, in TCM when you take that raw data and construct a theory as to the 'why', over time, the theory of the 'why' begins to take precident over the raw data it was based on! for example: Everyone knows the 'big bang theory' but nobody knows the substantiating evidence.

In medical science, as the evidence is gained over time - the theory changes accordingly (political and corporate agenda aside).In TCM, the theory is absolute (since its been around so long) and conflicting evidence is ignored.

Perception drives reality for humans. Things get extrapolated along the paths we place down for them.

heres the source of the problem with TCM: the concept of 'chi' as an energy is not part of the raw data....it's the theory which explains the raw data. Just because the theory is an ancient one, we shouldn't give it 'unchangeable' status.

so now, everyone reading is saying 'who cares, it still works'. but does it?

The Chinese started with raw data and came up with a theory of Chi energy circulation. with that map of chi meridian lines, subsequent points were placed upon it along it's theoretical paths. now you have a problem with dangerous assumption. you now have just created points (not based on raw data) using theory. because the theory is considered fixed, when they go to test the theoretical points, they don't work as expected and all sorts of wacky justifications and explainations are made like time of day considerations, etc.

see where I'm going with this? thats my scepticsm. I'm just using imagination, not historical fact since nobody really knows.

I'll leave people with one other question. if disruptions in chi flow can be affected differently and predictably depending on time of day, would someone who works graveyard shift have different times? so is chiflow wallclock time or body clock time? if it's by body cycle, how can either a doctor or defender tell what cycle their patient/opponent is in?

If these things aren't understood, how can the theory of chi be accepted so easily UNLESS it was about faith?

Interesting thread...and way over my head. I like the idea about perception tho'. Kind of like...learning how to step 'off-line' in karate. Now, one can go at it from an angles perspective (modern), or a more 'wholistic' way by absorbing a philosophy/worldview and discovering the practical use later. Both ways work.

But placing complete faith in modern science bothers me. I mean...I have to go through various doctors who tell me 'there is nothing wrong with your knee'.

'But...there is pain...kinda right in the middle'. Lacking the ability to identify the pain to a joint/muscle/piece of a body I may come up with some ad hoc way of describing it.

'Well...the Xrays don't show anything...it must be in your head.'

If I accepted the diagnosis there would be no searching to TRY to match personal/subjective reality with the science of 2 physicians (albeit...bad ones)...my torn meniscus would never come to light.

There's a vast difference between placing faith in Modern Medicine for what they do know and assuming that they have finished all the answers.

For example if bubonic plague were breaking out, or you needed heart surgery, or a kidney replacement do you really question Modern Medicine's abilities?

But whether every doctor has the knowledge and availability to diagnose all of the millions of different ailments every time is an entirely different issue.

But suppose you place your faith in Chinese Medicine, how do you know that the person using accupuncture was at the head or the bottom of their class either?

Serindipity always exists. Which means it takes personal responsiblity to see if you can find better answers, and there are times there are none.

Several years ago I lost a student, with a genetic disease that struck while he was in his mid 40's. Uncountable numbers of doctors and research hospitals, a solid year of non-stop tests made no difference. They couldn't peg what was so rare that it really hadn't been studied in depth.

Life is uncertaintiy and certain dissolution in the end. Perhaps we can mitigate the results somewhat, but there is a lot of pesonal responsibility in that answer, not someone elses.

Life isn't by definition fair, which is why the essence of the arts exist after all. If it was fair why would we need to defend ourselves?

Frankly placing my faith in hands on faith healing, or press the dots, or pin sticking are as unlikely to me too.

understood. The common sense approach works for me. The reason I place a higher regard for science is because it changes, for the most part, improves upon its body of knowledge. whereas static beliefs tend to be self-defining and less critical of itself.

It's not a great leap of imagination to suppose that what the Chinese discovered as Chi was the central nervous system. their maps were just off a bit. their explaination as to the 'why' might have been off alot.

This would also explain how soft/internal Arts use the visualization of Chi as an energy to get results. The visulization may help the brain fire efficient patterns to the particular muscles, while leaving other portons of the same muscle relaxed. interesting stuff when the old and new realities are combined in figuring out what might be going on. -does thinking in terms of chi energy help? probably. -is it really what is going on? probably not. -If it works, then do it? certainly. -do it without asking questions? boring. -Chi and Dim Mak theory can't be broken down into western thinking? hocus pocus nonsense.

perhaps after understanding chi's physical properties in terms it hasn't had the chance to before, there may be a better and more efficient, more predictable way of visualizing and therefore training it. who knows.

I've never seen paranormal things in other parts of life (except maybe the concept of 7 year old black belts twirling weapons and shreiking), but why would this concept of Chi/Dim Mak lead me to expect otherwise.

Quote: It's not a great leap of imagination to suppose that what the Chinese discovered as Chi was the central nervous system. their maps were just off a bit. their explaination as to the 'why' might have been off alot.

Ed, let's go a little deeper yet... when you say "central nervous system", you're medically talking about the spine and the nerve bundles that eminate from there. There are several "nerve systems" in the body and some others that aren't so well defined and as predictable as the nerve system reactions... the lymphatic system, for instance. While everyone knows about the lymph nodes, they can be affected in numerous ways and cause horrendous problems... why, because they act as a "filtering system" in the body. Damage to the lymph system can cause infections, accumulations of lymphatic fluids (edema), and a host of other "nasties" that require some substantial doctoring to fix.

Many of the hitting points of Dim Mak were right on top of lymph system nodes which caused lymph edema, and a resulting damage to a nearby limb, organ or similar organ that becomes overtaxed because of the lymph system breakdown... i.e. the liver. Ask any woman who's had a mastectomy about lymphedema, and you'll find out that it's a gruesome disease... caused by excising and removing lymph nodes that cause an upset in the lymph system. That fluid travels just under the skin, and is like a "fluid suit" that meanders all over the body just under the skin.

While blunt force trauma can cause some pretty nasty nerve impacts, we sometimes forget that the target area might not necessarily be designed to only hit a nerve point. As Dim Mak was designed to injure or kill someone "later" strikes to the lymph system could cause problems that might not manifest themselves for weeks or months.

In dealing with my wife's lymphedema from her cancer surgery, I've learned a lot about the lymph system and how to handle it in the "injured" state, and it requires some "touch" to get it right. Too much pressure and you don't do anything except "cause a hole in the fluid, and too little pressure and you don't move the fluid, so there is a "right pressure" anywhere you're dealing with this type of massage.

Fast forward back in time to when Dim Mak was originating, and all the western medicine wasn't available to "fix" lymph problems. A "correct strike" to one of those numbered "meridians" could cause a lymphedema that would eventually cause sickness or death... at the very least, an incapacitation of the victim.

I recently played judo with a kid in the judo class, and he kept trying to sweep my foot and missed, but every time, he popped me on the ST-40 point in my leg with his ankle bone. It took about six minutes for a hematoma the size of a baseball to come up, and completely dibilatate me... the next week, I had some killer bruises from my knee to my ankles, and he wasn't hitting me hard... just consistently... and I had the damnedest hickey on my leg you've ever seen. When the doctor saw it, he said "Oh, you've got a lymphedema from some kind of leg trauma"... "have you hit your leg on a table or something?"

Needless to say, I made up my best lie, and retreated to the ice pack to get the swelling down, but it was one awful looking place that was right on top of a lymph node...(given that he reasonably didn't hit exactly the same spot each time, but close enough for government work).

Now, your assumption appears to be that since the TCM practitioners see things differently and don't describe them in exactly what you consider "scientific" terms, that their science isn't as good as western science, but I would disagree. The western medicine doctor sees the injury and defines treatment from that point. The TCM doctor approaches it from healing the entire body, not just the injured part... and realistically, I trust someone that treats edema with massage and ice packs rather than a prescription pad full of pain killers.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Perhaps it should be worthwhile to note that what we call "conventional" or modern western medicine has its roots in early Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Islamic (via Persia) medicine.

In fact, the work of Avicenna (Ibn Senna, a Persian scientist), vis-a-vis the Canon of Medicine, largely forms the basis of our modern medical science.

What is little known is that the writings of the Hippocratic Corpus (questionably attributed to Hippocrates, to whom our medical fraternity still pledge the Hippocratic Oath [we hope!, although I'm not sure that they would swear by the gods of the Greek/Roman pantheon...]), and the subsequent work of Galen, described concepts (vis-a-vis "The 4 Humours" and "4 Elements") similar to Ayurvedic and Chinese medical philosophy - which were developed quite independently.

If you look at the history of modern medicine, the radical shift from its origins of holistic, palliative and non-invasive therapeutic philosophy to invasive "treatments" which target and address symptomatic disease is quite astounding.

Quote: The western medicine doctor sees the injury and defines treatment from that point. The TCM doctor approaches it from healing the entire body, not just the injured part...

Ed, I hate to quote myself, but what part of that didn't come out plainly?

I'll admit that I haven't really given a lot of thought to TCM as emergency medicine, because it's usually discussed in relationship to treating diseases and "conditions", and since they are focused on "whole body treatment", I would suggest that maybe the combination might be best... western medicine to stop the bleeding and sew you up, and TCM to heal you and make you healthy again...

With the combination of medical treatments, you may be able to "eat your cake and have it too"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Ed, I think you'll find that TCM is practiced in Chinese hospitals. The term Tradional Chinese Medicine is actually a modern one coined by the Mao administration when they attempted to bring all the schools of medical thought under one roof.

China has a long history of bone setters, body workers and also surgeons. Having a whacking great big split in the side of your body won't get fixed by putting a needle in a specific part of the body. However to aid the recovery process and to address any imbalances caused to the energetic system due to the truama would be done using Acupuncture, herbal medicines and various other treatments.

As has already been mentioned its a holistic approach, nothing is mutually exclusive. Western Doctors have long been refering people to alternative "complementary" therapies. Although they don't know why they work they still recomend them because they do. For example in the UK a lot of work has been done with using Shiatsu to aid in the recovery of Cancer patients post treatment, and from what I've it has been highly successful.

Good points Gavin. I think that most people only think of the TCM treatments that they encounter under "healthy" conditions, and forget that people get hurt in China too. What part of TCM is like western medicine? I have no idea... but I do know what parts are different

That's mostly what this whole argument has been about...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

The school of Shiatsu that I study actually has both the western and eastern perspectives. Now I've just moved into the next part we're starting to delve a lot more into the theory behind. It's starting to get a bit of a brain masher now learning Anatomy and Physiology alongside TCM, but I'm *slowly* starting to see how they merge together. Personally I prefer the much more inclusive eastern approach encompassing the Mind, Body and Spirit than the exclusive western approach... but gonna have to learn both to pass my exams in 3 years time!

hehe...actually, I thought the signpost joke was funny. and is very telling as to your gullability. are signposts always correct or without motive? obviously, you haven't drove around Boston. lol The signposts are there to direct tourists to the 'traps'....the natives know which signs are truthful and which lead to money pits.

western doctors understand placebo and sometimes use/refer methods of it. There are countless tests of the better than chance proof that placebo works, or at least gives the satisfactory illusion to a patient that it works, which if anything aides in comfort. Thats why western MD's would refer to alternative methods (if they thought it wouldn't interfere with their current treatment) without telling the patient what they 'really think' since if they did that, it would defeat the purpose of the placebo. It's a catch-22, so most adopt an accepting attitude and even encouragement of alternative methods. It's the ol, "Doc, it hurts when I do this. -Then don't do that." in reverse.

Ed you'd be lynched by any self respecting Shiatsu practioner for calling it massage and the Japanese most definately claim it to be a hell of a lot more than massage. Massage is but a single method for applying pressure. Shiatsu is not based on Western anatomy in slightest, it merely incorporates it. Its influences can be traced back to Chinese Tui Na, various acupressure disciplines and also native japanese practices. Shiatsu is a form of Japanese bodywork based on oriental medical practice. Its kinda of a cross between physio therapy, acupressure and osteopathy.

The history and development of Shiatsu is a great tale of political intrigue and well worth a google!

Gotta say Ed me old mucker, as uninformed sweeping generalisations go... from my point of... that one was a corker!!!

someone be messing with your head. either that, you get your info from places selling it. while I lived in Japan, my father-in-law had a well known licenced shiatsu massager come to the house once a week. everything was explained by the massager in terms of anatomy. when asked about chi, he added 'think about it healing your energy if you want, sure.' clearly, he wasnt massaging with meridians in mind. but if it makes you feel better to think that way, then sure...

Quote:All qualified Shiatsu Therapists in Japan have to go through a government-regulated program which covers mostly the traditional form of Shiatsu Therapy. This traditional form, now commonly practiced in North America, was started by Tokujiro Namikoshi, from whose lineage subsequent Shiatsu therapists have been trained. Namikoshi developed his knowledge through trial and error, eventually gaining acceptance in the late 1950s. His Shiatsu is described as "Diagnosis and Therapy combined", and relies on an understanding of how the body functions according to western principles of anatomy and physiology, as opposed to the principles in Traditional Chinese Medicine or TCM, although derivative forms of Shiatsu based on TCM have been devised by later practitioners from the Japan Shiatsu College (Namikoshi had no background in TCM).

have you even spoken to a licenced shiatsu-ist in Japan? It's true, maybe some do incorporate the TCM side of things, but I suspect many do not. If you have some that do and some that don't both with the similar results...wouldn't that tell us something?

I mean: a thread that was started over year ago by a 'one post wonder' named 'Phillip', resurrected a year later by another 'one post wonder', and has over 1248 views and 103 replies in the span of one week?

I study the school Zen Shiatsu founded under Masunaga. Not only does that include meridian work, point work and chakra work it also includes a whole extended meridian system work too. Admitedly there are many different schools of thought of Shiatsu, so do only point work, some only meridian and some a mixture of both. The wikipeadia reference is incorrect IMHO. Shiatsu uses elbows, knees and feet. *Every* book I have have studied (In fact I have "Shiatsu Foundation Course" by Chris Jarmey in front of me and this particular moment in time) includes meridian work and thats a basic beginners book.

Shiatsu is more than massage, even at a purely physical level, whatever way you look at it.... damn damn damn... you're sucking me in and bringing down to your level. You've had the pleasure of speaking to Japanese Shiatsuist... cool. I've spend over a year actually studying and recieving treatments for a classical trained Sensei who learnt their art in Japan. You think TCM is completely bunk, I don't... cool.

Let's get back on topic and topic and go back to WT's signpost analogy and your observation of it. You're arguing with signposts in a place that ain't your home town and arguing with the locals based on your limited understanding and very narrow minded perception trying to give you information. This topic ceased being productive in my eyes and is now just plain boring... I'm bailing.

I see. is that what happens when confronted with conflicting data. who are the ones ignoring the signs?

research who the originator of Shiatsu is and what he did to develop this method. 'trial and error'. raw data. 'it just works', combined with western anatomy. Do you really think during that time period that Shiatsu was developed with a TCM approach given the Japan-China relations at that time? I mean Shiatsu was developed at a time when Toudi was being renamed to Karate just so they could take the kanji for 'China' out of there.

this is very much connected to the conversation. people not liking the facts I present will try to shut the thread down by accussing its divergence....or just bail.

me, I like to know the truth of things before blindly accepting them....but thats just me.

As you've already concluded that Japanese elitisim would exclude anything non-japanese and especially Chinese... wouldn't this seem quite an accurate turn of events? Your Shiatsu experienced Japanese friend is almost definately a Namikoshi product... offical state sponsered Shiatsu.... Mmmmmm... lovely! Ed, mate, unlike you I've done a hell of a lot of research into the art that I've dedicated the next 3 years of my life too and I'm pretty sure happy that the school I'm studying with is the most comprehensive and actually closer to what original Shiatsu was like prior to the political BS.

Quote: this is very much connected to the conversation. people not liking the facts I present will try to shut the thread down by accussing its divergence....or just bail.

me, I like to the truth of things before blindly accepting them....but thats just me.

I bail Ed coz this is boring me. Just coz something is out of your sphere of experience or understanding it becomes bunk. This, like the power generation arguments you made, can only be felt and experienced on a personal level. When you got off you ar$e and actually experienced loose power you became a believer. During that conversation I knew for a fact if I could have had 5 minutes with you could actually feel what it was like. Same here.

So rather than arguing with me, saying my stuff is bunk and accussing me that I'm bailing, get off your butt and do the stuff I've done. Do the stuff that the other guys who've argued with have done. Walk a mile in our shoes rather than reading a few webpages. Atleast experience the subject rather than relying on heysay.

I wish you luck with your quest and truly hope you find the value you seek.

One of my acquaintences from a Kempo background took a similar trip 20 years ago by studying with a Korean Shiatsu practionier for years, and was extremely disappointed at his journeys end.

I would only suggest several observations from my short years.

First, the Okinawan's themselves don't seem to have a group interest in this, nor am I aware that they feel it adds to their journey, and I respect the karate path began with them.

Second, it is far from universal that Chinese systems of martial study utilize the traditional chinese medical arts in their studies. Some do, but other major systems don't, which I've seen reported from several sources, not just my friends study. So it's obvious the Chinese have different minds on the issue too.

Last, my humble belief that only the correct study of karate will make karate stronger, and that adjunct training is likely to remain just that.

Of course I await demonstratable and transmittable proof that there are other answers, beyond antidotal discussion.

I'm not a skeptic, just a realist who, speaking for myself, will stay the course I follow.

Victor, my Shiatsu isn't really for martial purposes. There is a distinct crossover, but aim with the shiatsu is to become a good therapist, not martial artist.

My eventual choice to pursue a shiatsu path was after having a treatment and feeling the benefit it has given me in reliving some long term injuries. I've practiced on numerous people over the past year, most of whom aren't even aware of TCM, yet all without fail have gone away feeling better. Looser, better sleep patterns, more energy and a general better sense of well being. I've also helped people out with some injuries. For these benefits alone I think it's been time well spent.

BUT.... shifting the burden of proof on the TCM side does not make your argument stronger.

I suggest you do your research first into the history of modern medicine, and reformulate your argument. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what you find...

This thread is fast going downhill on a slippery slope...

Otherwise, we could talk about hitting nerve or "pressure" (as used in modern medicine) points and discuss the short, medium and long term effect of hitting such points or why it creates specific and predictable physiological responses.

Quote: research who the originator of Shiatsu is and what he did to develop this method. 'trial and error'. raw data

Ed, I have bad news for you... a lot of western medicine was developed by trial and error as well. Read a book called "The Century of the Surgeon"... it's a historical novel that chronicles the development of "modern surgery"... and unless you think killing patients by nicotine poisoning from shoving strong cigars up their rectum as anesthesia isn't "trial and error", you've got some crow to eat...

Most medical research is trial and error, and they keep cutting down on the error rate until they have a "predictable outcome". That is how every vaccine that's ever been developed has occured. That's why lots of them have ended up being recalled... they didn't work "as advertised" or began developing "unintended consequences".

Think about all the modern medicines that have been recalled... do you want that stuff running around your system, or would you rather have someone massaging spots that cause relief for your particular problem...

Let me see... what spot do we rub to aleviate stubborn???

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

sigh, more misunderstanding.I was saying trial and error is a good thing....as oppossed to basing things on unproven theories. I'm saying shiatsu is great because it was originally formed by trial and error with western anatomy and NOT originally based on chi healing. I realize they incorporate TCM sensability into it now, but it's only window decoration to what shiatsu is based on.

but eyrie is right. I'm sorry I failed the thread.eyrie, if the direction you mention is of interest to you, I look forward to you steering it's course, and I'll leave my irrational scepticism on the sideline. It's clear it has no place here. I was trying to learn something by challenging it. silly me.

Of course, let's not forget that much of modern pharmacology is derived from folk medicine. But most people are conditioned to believe that GP prescribed medication is somehow better than homeopathic remedies, even though one is natural and the other is a synthetic derivative of the natural substance.

Digitalis is a good example - the active ingredient in foxglove (a flowering shrub). At one time it was used to treat angina by the medical fraternity. But its use in folk medicine for 100s of years is well documented. So what did the early folk know that our modern doctors (and large pharmaceutical companies) are only rediscovering?

Let's not discount that knowledge begets knowledge.

I won't go into the more barbaric practices of early modern medicine... suffice to say that the earliest surgeons were primarily butchers, as they were the only folk who had the gumption to perform surgery - often without proper sterile equipment or anesthesia. Oh, and let's not mention leeches and blood letting...

I think we can safely conclude that there are alternate ways of explaining what happens to the human body when a pressure point (or points) is hit. Since we cannot prove one, and explanation by the other is incomplete/unknown at this stage, let's go back to the point that Victor was making - that it is a complete waste of time figuring out WHY and HOW it works, and just focusing on making it work (better).

And from a martial perspective, I would tend to agree with Victor. But my interest is, like Gavin, from a healing perspective, which although related in some shape or form, is largely irrelevant to what we do in a martial sense. I think this much both Gav and I can agree on.

I think for all intents and purposes, using the TCM point location reference is easier, since it's a handy way of describing WHERE the "access" points are located.

E.g. BL57 in the indentation where the gastrocnemius (calf) muscle divides. The point is called cheng2shan1 (Mountain Support). Kicking into the point causes the knee to buckle. I guess that's why it's called "Mountain Support" to begin with?

So I guess the question to ask is not WHY it works or HOW it works, just to know that it works. Who cares if kicking into the sural or tibial nerve (branch of the sciatic) causes a neuro-muscular reflex which buckles the leg?

The question is how to make it work better (angles? force?).

BTW, some of us did this sort of crap when we were kids having fun, making someone's leg buckle. It's not rocket science....

The more appropriate question, of course, is whether this is considered as "dim mak"?

I really didn't mean this to turn TCM vs. modern western medicine but somehow I moved it that way, and again I'm sorry.

if something makes people feel better, including ourselves then we should do it.

If we have the skill to pick exact spots based on what short/long term effect we wish to have on an opponent at any given time, then we should go for it.

If we want to think of things happening in terms of Chi energy instead of physiological, it's our perrogitive.

It's assumed all of us here train in MA. If we didn't, what would we be doing in an MA forum. I'm also assuming the forum is a place to learn and share. that implies thinking. we are doing the thinking now so that when we go to class and/or go and train, we already have some of the thinking already done....and maybe see if some of that thinking pays off in practice. often times it doesn't seem to, but merely satisfies curiosities. however, sometimes it does have an effect in training...THATS when we can say we have learned something here.

my scepticism went too far in order to allow myself to learn something. clearly, that tells me that my method was off mark. a little less doubting and a little more questioning is probably a better recipe.

Nope, I'm not suggesting that quaint Chinese practices are somehow more powerful. I'm just saying that the ancients (irregardless of their ethnic origin) made certain assumptions and arrived at certain conclusions that defies explanation in terms that we presume to understand today.

Without starting the war all over again, I think that the TCM system is excellent for identifying points for striking and holds some excellent information about long term effects... but it's still places to hit during combat. While the battle got a little crazy, the simple truth to all of it is that we're still dealing with the human body and it's weak points (as defined by whoever), picking appropriate targets for self defense (or healing), and the dynamics of getting to those points, whether with pressure, strikes, or chi.

We could do a similar analysis of body mechanics and the similarities between body positions for different martial arts, but I'm already exhausted after this one...

Ed, you made a lot of comments in the discussion that marched toward "being able to hit at specific angles or 1-inch differences between pressure points and general points". Realistically, that's a matter of training... not just "practice", but actually taught skills to do just that. We all should be much more accurate with our strikes as we progress in our arts, and if not, then there is an area for much practice. Like shooting, you want to aim for the center of the target, not the rings outside the bullseye. Much of Dim Mak's effectiveness is directly related to it's accuracy.

While this discussion might have wandered a bit, I think it shows that even the "true believers" can hold their own if everyone doesn't fold and run off defensively. Sometimes, it's a change of perspective that makes people realize that something might not work the way they think, but it still works. Maybe we've found more than one explanation for some things.

Since we've had this little exercise, I'll tell you that if I had to recommend a book, it would be Erle Montaigue's book on hitting points. It doesn't have the angles, or timing shown in it, but it does have a pretty clear set of effects that can be caused by hitting those points, and while there aren't stacks of dead bodies to prove it, it appears to be accurate information.

I know, Ed...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

just to clarify what I was 'marching towards'....because if there is anything that is more annoying to me, it's when the intent of my words get retranslated.

specific example: hitting the side of a neck at a downward angle is the most I can hope for when in the position to do so. my 30 years of part-time training allows me that much accuracy at least. aiming for the throbbing vein or hidden from sight nerve on that side of the neck and training my angle to be as close to the prescription for disaster is, TO ME, not productive given the reliability of it's outcome when compared to my 'general' strike. As Victor alluded - If anything, I might want to learn Dim Mak, so I specifically DON'T kill someone by accident.

you'd have cause to say my way sucks (you didn't say that, but youd have cause to) since you are more accurate with strikes, but I'd be willing to bet either one of us could deliver a hit to any part of a neck with decent effect. also, one more point...sometimes we don't have the luxury of scoping our target visually, it becomes a feel. If someone can locate and strike a specific surface target (put a dot on someones neck) as oppossed to 'just somewhere on the neck' on an unfamiliar opponent without looking, they have my respect...that would simply be amazing and is way above my ability. I wouldn't respect it as more effective, but I'd respect the control and accuracy for it's own sake.

I'm not looking for you to agree or disagree, just acknowledge you understand what I'm saying and at least see the logic, flawed or solid.

but in both of our cases, hitting an area somewhere within 5 inches or within 1 inch - the bad guy goes down...so what is there to argue about.

You are right, 'BTW, it's maggots that eat dead flesh... not leeches.', which is only proof why i'm not authorized to speak long on medical matters, though i think the principle i was talking about still applies.

Quote:Otherwise, we could talk about hitting nerve or "pressure" (as used in modern medicine) points and discuss the short, medium and long term effect of hitting such points or why it creates specific and predictable physiological responses.

one question to start it off: describe the usefulness in tactic for striking with 'medium and long term effect'.

Quote: describe the usefulness in tactic for striking with 'medium and long term effect'

Ed, the purpose of this genre of technique was to cause "later death" and was part of the assasination techniques of Dim Mak. If you read about the interaction of clans and between emissaries of the different countries in the area, Japan, China, and Okinawa, there was tremendous political intrique that went on, and "slow kill" strikes were used to disguise assassinations.

In a time where "road bandits" were common, an assasination could be disguised as an attempted robbery or "bandit attack" and carried out without divulging the identies of the political figures involved in ordering them. While there might be conjecture about who ordered it, usually the assasins were more than willing to take their own lives than to be captured and face their captors as prisoners.

Did it work??? who knows???

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

WOW, this thread has grown 10 pages in 5 days. Ed if nothing else, you certainly now how to stimulate discussion (whichever direction it goes).

Gavin, you mentioned extended meridians. Could you describe them? Is there any useful info on it on the net?

As for the usefulness of striking for long term effect, today it`s probably not so useful, especially for "normal" people (in contrast with WTs assasins). What use it is if my attacker gets sick or something hours after he already attacked me. I need an effect now, not later, which I think Underdog already said.

Kosh,hitting any of the lung points can cause immediate problems AND long term ones. The lung meridian is one of the shortest in the body and one of the most potent... plus it's pretty accessible.

If you're looking for immediate results, try punching spleen 21 or liver 14. Both places will cause problems later as well, but if you want "access" to immediate downtime for your opponent, that's a good start.

Hit'em and hit'em hard...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

one question to start it off: describe the usefulness in tactic for striking with 'medium and long term effect'.

I don't think it's intended primarily as a tactic, perhaps more like a side effect.

What we do in a martial context is simple: disrupt the person's ability to use power or generate power, remove their capacity to ambulate or stand up, or in the extreme, induce unconsciousness or cardiac arrest.

If you accept the TCM view that the body has an "energy" state that is in some sort of equilibrium, disrupting the energy state can cause problems down the track, if not addressed immediately.

However, Victor's point is particularly appropriate, since none of us here are suitably qualified to discuss this in any meaningful context without making suppositions and conjecture. Perhaps a medico (where's BuDoc?!) could suggest what the mid-long term effects might be...

There are various references, some costing literally hundreds of dollars. The question is are they accurate or reasonable. I have Montague's encyclopedia of Dim Mak, which cost a few, it looks very reasonable, but it took Doc almost not time at all to find medical inaccuracies in the descriptions.

And that's always the rub, if there is even one inaccuracy, how can you begin to trust any of the rest.

How can you prove such and such will do long term liver damage, or death 100% of the time as long as you're using reverse breathing, etc.

The medical profession is not in the business of verifying that technique guides/encyclopedia's are correct how to damage someone anyways.. The physicans oath first is 'Do No Harm'.

Which leave us what, personal testimony that such and such is true, or the right to conduce unethical experiments to determine how much damage occurs?

By modern definition the study of dim mak is non-ethical.

Of course you can always justify it by claiming the need for defensive purposes.

But you don't need that. The underlying principle is any body striking into any aspect of your body, is very much a bad idea, anytime, anyplace.

Quote: it took Doc almost not time at all to find medical inaccuracies in the descriptions.

Victor, again it goes back to the TCM approach vs Western medicine. The paradigms don't correlate to one another, so I don't think you could expect the data to do so either.

Western medicine doesn't even acknowledge the basis of TCM which is the meridian systems, so how could you expect emperical evidence of their use? While much of our medicines are similar to old folk remedies (or at least using the same chemical structures for healing), how much western medicine is accomplished through acupuncture?

Acupuncture flourished in China until 1932, when Chang Khi Chek took over, and banished it until he escaped to Formosa in 1945. At that time, Mao Tse Tung, took over and restored acupuncture back to it's place of prominence in a country that was devoid of antibiotics and western medical thinking.

Today, there are 16 acupuncture schools, 8000 acupuncturists, and two medical schools teaching acupuncture in the USA. The majority of the acupuncturists work in pain control clinics, and the needles have been changed from the "investigative" category to "accepted medicical instruments" The National Institute of Health has formed, for the first time, a department of Alternative Health care to provide needed research in such alternatives as acupuncture as alternatives to western medicine.

I would assume they're doing that to learn what the Chinese might have known for the past 5000 years...

I can't explain how my printer/fax/ copy machine works, but I know if I hit the buttons in the correct sequence, I can print, fax, and copy things. Doctors aren't likely to admit that they might have the same lack of expertise in fixing the body...

If you talk to a surgeon, they can usually fix your problem with surgery... if you talk to a family physician, they'll usually try medicine, or refer you to an "expert" in a given field... who will use surgery or medicine to treat your problem... depending on how their "emphasis of training" goes.

For years, chiropractic was banned in many states because it was an alternative to western medicine, but as more and more "medical" doctors used it, it became accepted, and it keeps me in pretty good shape, since I have a "bone problem" that requires that kind of treatment. I don't take medicines for it, I don't need surgery, but the chiropracter can adjust my hip, and all the pain goes away and it's "normal" until I throw it out again. Of course, my orthopedic doctor wanted to operate on it, but he's the same one who missed me having a broken hip when it was broken... so I'm sticking with the chiropracter. He, at least, figured out what the problem was...

Quote: The physicans oath first is 'Do No Harm'.

... yeah, right... that's why no one ever sues a doctor...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

First does anyone have any credible person who's teaching Dim Mak after all, or is this just a pleasant theoretical discussion? I've never heard of anyone (discounting the deceased Count Dante). Is Dim Mak just a legend rumbling around the corners of our minds?

I don't know.

Montague and associate compiled two very extensive looking books combining Dim Mak material, Traditional Chinese Medicine (which is not Dim Mak) to try and tie it together, and used Contempory Western Medicine and Anatomy in conjunction with the descriptions.

My friend/student with his Surgeon's knowledge both confirmed some of the material (such as the use of the carotid sinus in Montague's book) but he also found errors in anatomy, which brings the question about the books true merit. What if (my cute terms now) kill point 13 is actually power point 19 and instead of offing the dude, you turn them on to off you in turn.

That's a joke of course, but it's also the rub. How do you trust this material.

My older humble analysis of the available bubishi translations raises the point, which one do you trust, and some of the material offered seems contraditory, even bringing into question if the bubishi is one work, or a compilation of different works, with no effort to deal with differences.

It is well documented that Karate instructors catalogued viatal points. Funakoshi did so beginning in 1922 and onward. Mutsu's extensive work in 1933 went into vital points in detail.

Vital points may or may not be dim mak, depending on, definition, but they clearly work, at least they're big owies if nothing else, and they are clearly much more.

One Chinese system, Northern Eagle Claw, only offers one set of vital point charts, but terribly extensive two person drills making use of points a true art, and there are many arts doing similar work in many different systems of study. For example, imo, the higher level of aikido acutally is using the persons aviodance of pain, at a instant subconscious level, to allow them to throw themselves out of the way of perceived pain, often before it's felt.

So there are lots of interesting studies you can make, if you have an infinite amount of time.

Whether these studie constitute Dim Mak, and it interelates to healing arts that have nothing to do with death, or extreme pain, whatever, depends on how willing you are to take things on faith.

Or from direct experience.

Unfortunately, I've traned with many great people who can turn you into a turnip, but they've never focused on how to use their art in the extreme, though their ability and technique can readily do so.

And the most extreme example I trained with, was adamant that it was immoral and unethicial to even consider such discussion.. even while his training to extremely levels obviously makd the potential real.

I primarly teach childern, and a handfull of adult friends. We don't kill people or try to do so. Nor do I attempt to heal anyone. If someone's ill or injured I would support them to obtain relief as they feel appropriate.

Whether Western Medicine, Chinese Medicine, Native Americian treatment, or Allowing God to enter their life and heal them.

It would upset Doc, but I am what I am, nothing more or less.

BTW Doc agrees, if the Doctor is an Internist, they will focus on one type of treatment, if they're a surgeon, they will focus on other types of treatment, and so forth.

Doctors are not perfect, but they have their uses a well as others do.

Gee Ed, do Eastern anatomies have different structures than western anatomies?.. or would the nerves and meridians be the same?

Quote:explains how/why it works with Chinese chi-flow theory/beliefs

I thought the last 14 pages were getting you to the point of understanding that it's based on TCM... forget the "chi ball" crowd and focus on strategic points in the body that cause problems. Now, if it's called the "carotid sinus" in western medicine or ST-9 in TCM, what's the problem? Both systems know what kind of problems it causes and how to work around the area to effect cures.

I'm sure the "old texts" of TCM use chi descriptions in their literature, but you should read some of our own "Civil War" medical literature... or should we still call gangrene "stench infection"?

You seem unwilling to accept the fact that TCM used many of the same methods and types of cures found in western medicine. It's not like they were using incantations to drive out the evil spirits, they just described their findings and methods differently.

Many of our "western medicines" are poisons, so how do you suppose that we found out exactly how much to allow someone to ingest without harm?.. or because it was "western medicine" that they just knew how much to use... I don't think so.

About half of modern medicine's advances were made during the Holocaust, when scientists used people as guinea pigs, so please don't tout the "do no harm" aspects of modern western medicine. "Clinical trials" are still using people for guinea pigs, and the results aren't always "excellent"... there was a recent case of a perfectly healthy college student that is now in a coma from reaction to one of "western medicine's" new drugs... what part of the "chi theory" caused that?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Is it safe to say that western medicine evolves and, in time, improves upon itself? and TCM (being traditional and historic) is static, accepting it as it is?

the only thing I'm trying to figure out now, is where's the beef? was it passed along by word of mouth? or perhaps text in Chinese which has yet to be translated/published to English? I'm not trying to upset anyone, just asking where the source info is.

In the meantime, I'll try to read up on TCM and Chi theory history. ...maybe that will lead me to asking a better question.

Ed, I think both systems use the treatments that they know which work... whether it's by "magic potion" or massage, or psychology. And to answer your other question, I think that both systems of medicine use what they know now, whether it's TCM or western medicine, or the combination of the two.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

I believe thats true. some TCM is therepudic. other TCM, western medicine calls it placebo and it has proven to be a better than chance help. they just don't really understand how placebo works. the mind is a powerful thing. still, if it helps, it helps.

ok, now I have some groundwork in answer to the threads original question...but first...lets have some fun...

Quote:During the Spring/Autumn Period (770-426 b.c.) and the Warring States Period, (476-221 b.c.) the basic principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine were developed, including the theory of yin/yang imbalance as the root cause of illness, the role of the Five Elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire and Metal), modes of diagnosis (tongue and pulse) and healing (acupuncture, herbs, qigong and diet). The "three treasures" of the human body, "Qi" or vital energy, "Jing" or life essence, and "Shen" or spirit were viewed as the key to vibrant health.

Shen Nong is accredited with being the mythical forefather of TCM, given the status of first herbalist and god of husbandry. He taught how to raise crops, rear domestic animals and recognise herbs through taste. Huang Ti (2674 BC), or the Yellow Emperor, is accredited with being the pioneer of Chinese Medical science, along with Chi Po with whom Huang spoke, discussed and created the basis of Chinese medical knowledge. This would later become the "Huang Ti Nei Jing", or, the "Yellow Emperors Classic", a text recording this primary understanding at approximately 300BC. However from as early as 1700BC records of remedies and conditions were kept written on shells and bones, and from 400BC complete herbal formulas were kept.

Quote:The Huang Dei Nei Jing is the oldest and most important medical book to originate from China. Its author and origin is unknown, but is thought to have been written during the Warring States period (475-221 B.C.) by numerous authors (Yanchi 1995, p2).

From this ancient classic comprised of two books; the Suwen 'Plain Questions' and the Lingshu 'Miraculous Pivot', came the basic foundations of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). It introduced the five-element theory, Yin & Yang, causes of disease, the pathology and physiology of the Zangfu organs, interaction of Blood and the channel system. All subsequent texts built upon the foundations laid down by the Huang Dei Nei Jing.

Well stated and I'm going to keep studying (ethical or not). It also explains and explains why I don't get upset, why/when different medical authorities will differ about the efficacy of a certain attack. You just can't find a good double blind study research artical on blood choke or any other attack techniques in a reputable medical peer reviewed journal. What's wrong?

Quote: gavin, perhaps next time I have a nusance pain that doesn't disappear on it own with rest, stretching and asprin. I might even have the book read by then.

Why don't you live a little and actually have a treatment while you're feeling OK, but you're probably too pig headed to acknowledge any beneifts any how... My point being you're continuing to ask about things that need to be experienced. It's like asking ton's of questions about MA's and having an opinion without ever actually going to a lesson... something you've trashed people over in the past. If you're really that interested in TCM, go and experience first hand. You're the TCM/MWM equavilant of a Keyboard Combantant. So, rather than recomend that you find an instructor, I recomend you find a good therapist (in more ways than one!) !

Quote: Gavin, you mentioned extended meridians. Could you describe them? Is there any useful info on it on the net?

Kosh, I don't really know of anything that good on the net. The extended meridian system was developed by a guy called Shizuto Masunaga. They've only really been hinted at on my course. They're not on the syllabus until the next of my course.

Actually Ed I found it quite insulting that you seem to think that we are all sheep who follow these things out of faith and are too stupid to question the world around us. You've been given about 10 pages of peoples experience and thats about the best you're going to get. I was a total skeptic, but in order to qualify my opinion I decided to actually go to people who believed. I'm a firm believer of "He who feels it, knows it!". Hence my analogy of going a MA instructor to find out about M.A's and going to a TCM therapist of some discipline to actually experience what were talking about... then atleast you'll be on the road to having a qualified opinion rather than one best on purely reading it. I could read a description of a gyakazuki and a completely right it off based purely on my experiences or lack thereof, however I'd only take feeling one gyakazuki to convince me. As I side, "He who feels it, knows it".

This thread is dead... but my curosity isn't... neither is my open mind.