Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie?

DrPaul wrote:

I'm a little nonplussed by the references to "statutory rape" in some posts. We are not told what the norms of the people of the Land are in relation to consensual sex between girls of Lena's age and men of Covenant's age.

What we are told is that "Something that her people thought of as a gift had been torn from her." That is the heart of the matter in terms of the story. If Covenant had received Lena's intimacy as a freely given gift, rather than tearing it from her, the situation would have been completely different morally.

We are not told anything in the text that allows us to conclude that the fact that Lena is below the statutory age of consent in some US States (but not in others, not in Canada, and not in most Australian jurisdictions, to give just some examples) would have any bearing on the moral status of her, or Covenant's, freely chosen actions in the Land.

Lena's infatuation with Covenant was as undeniable as it was fatal - the violence in Covenant's act betrayed his intentions though, and his inner monologue depicts a man in a frenzy of emotional upheaval.
There's little doubt that his act is a heinous one, SRD manages to evoke a visceral reaction with very few words in this instance.

The problematic issue of integrating the foul rape of Lena into any type of adaptation is a vexed one and not easily addressed.

On top of that; the first novel is a tricky adaptation in other ways; Lord Foul's Bane starts brilliantly; disorienting and intriguing - but once Covenant delivers his message to the Lords things would need some tightening, imo, to maintain the type of momentum needed for a tv series.

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie?

DrPaul wrote:

I'm a little nonplussed by the references to "statutory rape" in some posts. We are not told what the norms of the people of the Land are in relation to consensual sex between girls of Lena's age and men of Covenant's age.

What we are told is that "Something that her people thought of as a gift had been torn from her." That is the heart of the matter in terms of the story. If Covenant had received Lena's intimacy as a freely given gift, rather than tearing it from her, the situation would have been completely different morally.

[/quote]

I think we weren't told those things because they couldn't possibly affect the story. In the context of a story about a protagonist from our world, written for readers from our world, there are only two things that matter: Covenant's definition of right/wrong and the readers' definition of right/wrong. It wouldn't matter one bit if Covenant's rape of a 14 year old girl was "erased" by her acquiescence combined with a lax fictional society. Donaldson had his protagonist rape a child in order to convince us that he could truly go either way, good or evil. If there was wiggle room to view this as anything other than evil, it would entirely miss the point.

SleeplessOne wrote:

The problematic issue of integrating the foul rape of Lena into any type of adaptation is a vexed one and not easily addressed.

Why? Have you seen Dexter? Game of Thrones? Breaking Bad? Anti-heroes are becoming cliche, there are so many of them. This won't be controversial ... it will have the opposite problem: seeming derivative._________________Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:14 am Post subject: Re: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie?

Zarathustra wrote:

Why? Have you seen Dexter? Game of Thrones? Breaking Bad? Anti-heroes are becoming cliche, there are so many of them. This won't be controversial ... it will have the opposite problem: seeming derivative.

I certainly have seen those shows and made the exact same point as you did on the same page of this very thread - anti-heroes like Walter White and Tony Soprano have paved the way for Thomas Covenant to an extent.

However I see the rape scene as a discrete issue which could and probably would cause tv execs to get skittish and would rattle and divide any potential audience should it actually be produced.
I know GoT has featured more than its share of rape and misogyny.
And it 'got away' with it for a while, too - until a couple of scenes in later episodes which caused a big backlash and show-runners Benioff and Weiss were forced to more or less admit they'd mishandled things.

Spoiler:

I speak specifically of Jaime Lannister having seemingly non-consensual sex with his sister Cersei, and the Bolton bastard raping Sansa.

.

That was maybe a year or two ago now; if anything the climate for stuff like this is even more fraught now, with social justice watchdogs keeping tabs and protesting loudly about everything from casting diversity to sensitive portrayals of LGTBI characters.

The use of a rape to further the rapists story has been under the microscope for a while now, and to think it wouldn't be a huge issue is ignorant imo.

Now, I have no problem with the way SRD used the rape of Lena to build his story at all - we both know that, despite initially avoiding punishment or repercussion for his crime, Covenant pays for his sin a thousand times over, and never, ever forgives himself or lets himself off the hook - and the pain and confusion the act causes Lena and her family reverberates throughout the entire chronicles.

But it plays out over a long period, and for a while there it seems that SRD isn't going to address it in a satisfying way. He does.
But I'm not sure a modern audience would grant any visual Covenant adaptation enough leeway to allow the complexity of the rape's implications and repercussions to develop.

It would be extremely tricky to handle the scene in a way that keeps audience members with no prior knowledge of the story onboard imo - I'm sure we all know people who put the book down at that point in the story, too, never to pick it up again.

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie?

SleeplessOne wrote:

I certainly have seen those shows and made the exact same point as you did on the same page of this very thread - anti-heroes like Walter White and Tony Soprano have paved the way for Thomas Covenant to an extent.

Woops, missed that.

SleeplessOne wrote:

However I see the rape scene as a discrete issue which could and probably would cause tv execs to get skittish and would rattle and divide any potential audience should it actually be produced.
I know GoT has featured more than its share of rape and misogyny.
And it 'got away' with it for a while, too - until a couple of scenes in later episodes which caused a big backlash and show-runners Benioff and Weiss were forced to more or less admit they'd mishandled things.

Spoiler:

I speak specifically of Jaime Lannister having seemingly non-consensual sex with his sister Cersei, and the Bolton bastard raping Sansa.

.

Those two rapes were gratuitous, with very little follow up to provide context. There were no characters passing judgment of the rapists, for instance, speaking the outrage of the audience. Nor did they vomit immediately afterwards, or express any grief whatsoever. Nor were they sympathetic victims of a horrible disease, a car wreck, or society shunning and alienating them.

And more importantly, they didn't think that their victims were part of a dream. In Covenant's mind, he didn't rape anyone ... and yet he still feels guilty about it.

In the end, the rape itself could just be implied. You don't have to show it._________________Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie?

Zarathustra wrote:

SleeplessOne wrote:

I certainly have seen those shows and made the exact same point as you did on the same page of this very thread - anti-heroes like Walter White and Tony Soprano have paved the way for Thomas Covenant to an extent.

Woops, missed that.

SleeplessOne wrote:

However I see the rape scene as a discrete issue which could and probably would cause tv execs to get skittish and would rattle and divide any potential audience should it actually be produced.
I know GoT has featured more than its share of rape and misogyny.
And it 'got away' with it for a while, too - until a couple of scenes in later episodes which caused a big backlash and show-runners Benioff and Weiss were forced to more or less admit they'd mishandled things.

Spoiler:

I speak specifically of Jaime Lannister having seemingly non-consensual sex with his sister Cersei, and the Bolton bastard raping Sansa.

.

Those two rapes were gratuitous, with very little follow up to provide context. There were no characters passing judgment of the rapists, for instance, speaking the outrage of the audience. Nor did they vomit immediately afterwards, or express any grief whatsoever. Nor were they sympathetic victims of a horrible disease, a car wreck, or society shunning and alienating them.

And more importantly, they didn't think that their victims were part of a dream. In Covenant's mind, he didn't rape anyone ... and yet he still feels guilty about it.

In the end, the rape itself could just be implied. You don't have to show it.

I absolutely agree that there would be no need to actually show the rape - also agree with your post upthread that the story can't proceed effectively without the rape scene - it's just a hard one to get across to a greater audience tuned to being outraged about the use of violence against women to further the perpertrator's story arc.

In my mind.....years ago...the talk about having LOTR be made into a movie...was considered impossible. Peter King finally brought it to life....evn though diehards are still dismayed that so much was left out....he still seemed to capture quite a bit.

So, TCTU might be made...especially with the same technic used with LOTR....
I think if they could focus on the major characters and avoid some of the dicier stuff....like what happened with LENA....it still could be done....
I would offer that potentially each book of each Trilogy might need to be in two parts..... Much like Star Wars has yet to be fully told...it would take a long endeavor...over a decade at least...to fully bring it to the screen. Using Peter King's approach of filming it all before the Actors die off or age too much...has to be the only real way to get it done.

Next Question - if you search that link I added....there are a couple of other photos related to TCTU....and a suggestion is made for who might play Saltheart Foamfollower. While the suggestion has merit.... I would pick someone younger....like Jason Mamoa.

Let's hear some ideas as to who would play whom in this decade....up & coming or veteran...

In my mind.....years ago...the talk about having LOTR be made into a movie...was considered impossible. Peter King finally brought it to life....evn though diehards are still dismayed that so much was left out....he still seemed to capture quite a bit.

So, TCTU might be made...especially with the same technic used with LOTR....
I think if they could focus on the major characters and avoid some of the dicier stuff....like what happened with LENA....it still could be done....
I would offer that potentially each book of each Trilogy might need to be in two parts..... Much like Star Wars has yet to be fully told...it would take a long endeavor...over a decade at least...to fully bring it to the screen. Using Peter King's approach of filming it all before the Actors die off or age too much...has to be the only real way to get it done.

A movie could definitely make money and be good. Benicio del Toro, for example, would be a director who could make it work. Keep Peter Jackson far away, please.

Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:21 am Post subject: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie?

Horrim Carabal wrote:

IPBprez wrote:

In my mind.....years ago...the talk about having LOTR be made into a movie...was considered impossible. Peter King finally brought it to life....evn though diehards are still dismayed that so much was left out....he still seemed to capture quite a bit.

So, TCTU might be made...especially with the same technic used with LOTR....
I think if they could focus on the major characters and avoid some of the dicier stuff....like what happened with LENA....it still could be done....
I would offer that potentially each book of each Trilogy might need to be in two parts..... Much like Star Wars has yet to be fully told...it would take a long endeavor...over a decade at least...to fully bring it to the screen. Using Peter King's approach of filming it all before the Actors die off or age too much...has to be the only real way to get it done.

A movie could definitely make money and be good. Benicio del Toro, for example, would be a director who could make it work. Keep Peter Jackson far away, please.

Guillermo Del Toro is the guy who directed the Shape of Water, Hellboy and Pan's Labyrinth ...
Benecio Del Toro is a great actor though; hopefully they could find a role for him - would make a good raver perhaps

I am rather more confused by the distinction between Peter King and Peter Jackson. Guillermo Del Toro as opposed to Benecio Del Toro, less motivated...but I see the difference._________________Focus on where you are going and why.
Never lose awareness of how far down "down" is...but don't obsess about it.

Concerning the issue of how controversial the Lena vs. Covenant rape scene would be in a film today, wasn't it considered rather normal just half a century or so ago for a 20s/early 30s year-old person to date or even marry a 16 year old? (I think that was what Lena's age was in LFB anyway.)

I'm not of the Baby Boomer generation, but I have heard from those of that generation say that was pretty common or at least perfectly acceptable back then. Some of the issues surrounding Roy Moore running for the senate position in the US was that he allegedly dated/had (supposedly consensual?) relations with teenage girls below the age of 18. His supporters tended to be older and were nonplussed by the allegations while his political adversaries called him a pedophile.

I mean, LFB was written in the early-mid 70s (and published later in the 70s). Was the idea of a romantic relationship between a 16 year old and 30 year old taboo back then (and before that time) as it is now?

Let's just remind ourselves of what Covenant actually does to Lena in that scene. He hits her in the face, advances on her with a look on his face that makes her fear he wants to kill her, rips open her shift, forces her to the ground and then rapes her. Nothing morally nuanced or liminal about it - just plain rape by main force.

I was referring more to the obvious romantic tension between the two (at least from Lena towards Covenant) and also whether or not his crime would have been especially heinous considering her age in the time period the book was written._________________"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________

I was referring more to the obvious romantic tension between the two (at least from Lena towards Covenant) and also whether or not his crime would have been especially heinous considering her age in the time period the book was written.

Yes rape was as illegal in the 70s as it is today.

And certainly TC would be seen as a sexual predator today, a 30 year old man hanging around with a 16yr old girl whether he had a normal relationship with her or not.

The age of consent in the US ranges from 16-18yrs. So depending what state we are talking about would indicate the level of heinousness. But regardless of legalities or illegalities, it wouldn't have looked good in the 70s, 80s, 90s etc.._________________health and healing

I, personally, think that the rape scene could be done in such a way that shows Covenant's "temporary insanity". It would be easier to stomach if there were a flash-foward of a Raver before hand - although that would mess with the timeline, but it would ease the shock of it.

Certainly there have been films made with Fouler protagonists, that I believe a Covenant movie or series would be possible, it just requires a director who understands how to portray mental illness in a suitable fashion - of which there are a few, and Covenant is definitely in the realms of mental illness for that short period._________________"Damn!!! Wildwood was unbelievably cool!!!!!" - Fist&Faith
"Yeah Forestal is the one to be bowed to!! All hail Forestal of the pantaloon intelligencia!" - Skyweir