On 25-Oct-2017 JimmyS wrote:>Most of the recently bolted stuff is filler anyway, place is basically>tapped out. An end to it here makes sense I think.

Fair enough, but it sounds to me like the most recent Ďfillersí were particularly insensitive.

I may well be written off as an old fart trad climber, but it seems to me that the new generation of bolters have a lot to answer for, and I very much hope that they donít stupidly stuff up access for the rest of us in their zealous endeavours.

Reading Tracey's piece, this isn't simply a Black Range issue. While that's the primary focus here, this discussion will include The Grampians. There are important crags here that have bolts next to art sites and bouldering sites close to, if not actually in, cultural sites.

A good starting point is to understand that the local indigenous people are at least as passionate about their cultural sites as we are about our climbing and bouldering sites. A few years ago I had the great priviledge to accompany an indigenous ranger into an obscure art site that I had stumbled across. His absolute delight as he photographed and catalogued it was amazing.

Please engage with this process as it rolls along. Remember that we're engaged in a first-world sport that's coming into contact with a very old culture.

yeah but, umm, this is a National Park we're talking about. Bolting is illegal.

Graffiti is illegal, too, unless it's more than 100 years old ;-)

Sarcasm aside, the debate ought to be about relaxing NP attitude to bolting, without which a number of popular climbing areas wouldn't exist. If something is 100% banned at present, the debate (from a climber's perspective) ought to be about shifting the balance to something less than 100%.

Having that in place would create a space for the topic above, where certain areas are designated as 'more' sensitive, and, with a sensible compromise in place across the board, easily accepted by the community.

Despite the above view, or perhaps in sympathy with it, I welcome specific postings and advisories here about particularly sensitive areas, and insensitive transgressions.

On 25-Oct-2017 gfdonc wrote:>yeah but, umm, this is a National Park we're talking about. Bolting is>illegal.>>Graffiti is illegal, too, unless it's more than 100 years old ;-)>>Sarcasm aside, the debate ought to be about relaxing NP attitude to bolting,>without which a number of popular climbing areas wouldn't exist. If something>is 100% banned at present, the debate (from a climber's perspective) ought>to be about shifting the balance to something less than 100%.>>Having that in place would create a space for the topic above, where certain>areas are designated as 'more' sensitive, and, with a sensible compromise>in place across the board, easily accepted by the community.>>Despite the above view, or perhaps in sympathy with it, I welcome specific>postings and advisories here about particularly sensitive areas, and insensitive>transgressions.>

No, you're doing the first-world thing. You're asking the indigenous people to identify "reserves" where their interests will be respected.

Think about this. What if Parks said, you can't place bolts or use chalk here unless you can demonstrate that there are no signifiant indigenous sites here?

As a relative newcomer to Lil Lil, I think it is fantastic we can climb there at all given its indigenous significance. I was amazed and perplexed at the number of new ( squeeze) routes that have gone up in the last few years despite a sign requesting no bolting, and explaining the cultural significance.The cliff is an amazing place, and there would be no great loss if some of the newer routes were removed.

On 25-Oct-2017 JimmyS wrote:>Most of the recently bolted stuff is filler anyway, place is basically>tapped out. An end to it here makes sense I think.
This isn't just discussing Black Ians, although historically there's been issues there. The new bolting that has triggered this is in the Black Range proper.

On 25-Oct-2017 gfdonc wrote:>Sarcasm aside, the debate ought to be about relaxing NP attitude to bolting,

No it fuching shouldn't. How many really awesome routes are still waiting to be bolted in the Gramps? I bet that less than a hundred more proper classics will ever go in (the place has been combed for 50 years).

Do you really want to gamble access to the amazing existing routes by encouraging dipshits to bolt obtrusive filler?

On 26-Oct-2017 One Day Hero wrote:>Do you really want to gamble access to the amazing existing routes by>encouraging dipshits to bolt obtrusive filler?

That's not why I said or intended to convey. Perhaps have a reread of the above and have another go at putting some cohesive thoughts together.

Kieran, I wouldn't have worded it that way (not sure what "demonstrate" might mean in that context) but the principle of having sanctioned and non-sanctioned bolting areas from Parks perspective - however we might arrive at the distinction - is in line with the point/s I was trying to make. At the moment they're simply all banned, so any bolting is surreptitious, which makes it harder to provide or enforce guidelines.

I don't have a problem with not bolting near aboriginal art sites but this is actually a request that ALL new route development in the WHOLE Black Range cease.

What is rock climbing? It's the same as walking but with more up than along, and you have to use your hands more. It is not a fundamentally different activity like driving a car is different from reading a book.

What is climbing a new route? It's climbing a bit of rock that you're not aware of other people having climbed before. Kind of like walking somewhere your not aware of people walking before.

What is developing new routes? It's climbing new routes and telling people about them. It might also mean clearing away loose rock to make them safer or something like that, but that's not a defining characteristic. Last time I climbed in the Black Range, a few of us walked into a cliff I'd spotted from a 'plane on the way to Adelaide, we climbed about five routes, walked back down a gully about five times, then drove to Nati for dinner. Got around to writing the routes up a year later. That's all new routing really is.

Suggesting that we shouldn't develop new routes in the range because someone has bolted indiscreetly is like suggesting that nobody should walk in the range because someone did something inappropriate.

On 27-Oct-2017 gfdonc wrote:>That's not why I said or intended to convey.

That's what you do convey. Maybe take a look around at the continuing actions of the 'climbing community', then have a think about what some likely outcomes are in the future.

As a community, climbers never say 'enough'. If you refuse to bolt something because it would be ugly and shit, it will just get done by the first idiot who comes along with lower standards. Person A thinks a boulder is more worthwhile as moss habitat than a no-star, two move, sit start. Person B sees a mega classic, the moss doesn't stand a chance.

I'm all for putting the necessary bolts in the quality routes, but climbing needs to develop a way to say 'enough'. The wild west is tamed, the idea that anyone can do whatever they want with a new route doesn't work in the modern era.

What climbing needs is a return to self regulation, where dumb bolts get removed before the land managers even know they were there. I'm also a big fan of victimisation of the pussy climbers who put in pussy bolts on shit routes. Should just heckle them till they quit the sport.

On 27-Oct-2017 JamesMc wrote:>I don't have a problem with not bolting near aboriginal art sites but this>is actually a request that ALL new route development in the WHOLE Black>Range cease.

The title of the Cliffcare statement was "Cease bolting request", and it stated: "I am now putting the request out that all further route development Ė more specifically those requiring fixed protection, cease in the Black Range."

While the wording is a little clumsy (specifically the use of "all further route development"), I think it's quite clearly only a request for the installation of fixed gear to stop.

On 25-Oct-2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>On 25-Oct-2017 JimmyS wrote:>>Most of the recently bolted stuff is filler anyway, place is basically>>tapped out. An end to it here makes sense I think.>>Fair enough, but it sounds to me like the most recent Ďfillersí were particularly>insensitive. >>I may well be written off as an old fart trad climber, but it seems to>me that the new generation of bolters have a lot to answer for, and I very>much hope that they donít stupidly stuff up access for the rest of us in>their zealous endeavours.

I hate to ruin a good old bag out of new generation, gym trained, no idea bumblies, but um, most these routes were actually put up by an older, very experienced climber who I doubt sees the inside of gym much more I than I do. It doesn't take me long to think of people whose actions generally concern me more.

I agree, these routes added nothing to the crag and I found the bolts visually intrusive. Discussing the art sites with them however resulted in some of the routes being removed. See, talking like mature adults, it does actually get people somewhere. If people are concerned about someone's actions, talk to them about them. Gung ho action feeds gung ho reaction and in the end, the environment ends up worse off for it.

On 28-Oct-2017 Wendy wrote:>On 25-Oct-2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>On 25-Oct-2017 JimmyS wrote:>>>Most of the recently bolted stuff is filler anyway, place is basically>>>tapped out. An end to it here makes sense I think.>>>>Fair enough, but it sounds to me like the most recent Ďfillersí were>particularly>>insensitive. >>>>I may well be written off as an old fart trad climber, but it seems to>>me that the new generation of bolters have a lot to answer for, and I>very>>much hope that they donít stupidly stuff up access for the rest of us>in>>their zealous endeavours.>>I hate to ruin a good old bag out of new generation, gym trained, no idea>bumblies, but um, most these routes were actually put up by an older, very>experienced climber who I doubt sees the inside of gym much more I than>I do. It doesn't take me long to think of people whose actions generally>concern me more.>>(snip)

I apologise for my over-generalised reactionary statement to any who have been wrongly accused.

Wendy, your further information comes as a surprise and also a disappointment (re its content) to me, though Iím not ignorant of the fact that climbing and bolts have always been controversial for some (in an over-view sort of way), even in the Ďbestí of situations, which this thread topic clearly isnít.

On 27-Oct-2017 One Day Hero wrote:>On 27-Oct-2017 gfdonc wrote:>>That's not why I said or intended to convey.>>That's what you do convey. Maybe take a look around at the continuing>actions of the 'climbing community', then have a think about what some>likely outcomes are in the future.>>As a community, climbers never say 'enough'. If you refuse to bolt something>because it would be ugly and shit, it will just get done by the first idiot>who comes along with lower standards. Person A thinks a boulder is more>worthwhile as moss habitat than a no-star, two move, sit start. Person>B sees a mega classic, the moss doesn't stand a chance.>>I'm all for putting the necessary bolts in the quality routes, but climbing>needs to develop a way to say 'enough'. The wild west is tamed, the idea>that anyone can do whatever they want with a new route doesn't work in>the modern era.>>What climbing needs is a return to self regulation, where dumb bolts get>removed before the land managers even know they were there. I'm also a>big fan of victimisation of the pussy climbers who put in pussy bolts on>shit routes. Should just heckle them till they quit the sport.>>
Dammo, I'm not about to quit. I have put up shit bolted pussy routes but at crags no one had climbed at. Lot a rock out there. I agree if there is pressure on at an established area people should take self control and cease and be called out if they dont. I the privalige we have to bolt in parks and dont exploit it. Have no problems ion logged, trail bike, 4wd popular state forests putting up shit pussy routes at a crag I
found

You hit the nail on the head, dude. Bolts in parks are a sneaky grey area, and I really think it is the best interests of the climbing community to keep things that way. And for fuchs sake, don't start an access fight with a no-star piece of shit.