UMECUnited Mining Exploration Commission: A group of friends playing JumpGate-- "a MMORPG that launched smoothly, breaks from fantasy character setting, emphasizes PvP, and is the first persistent world space simulator that nobody talks about." ~Scorch

I have one problem, and one problem only with the civ ripping. The excuse "I do it because it's my RP". For the nearly 2 years I've played this game, it's usually RP to suit civ ripping, not civ ripping to suit RP.

"The only difference between a coward and a hero is not whether or not you're scared, it's what you do when you're scared"

nunarie wrote:

Ask any of the really good pilots out there and they'll tell you it's not about getting the kill yourself but rather contributing to the total kills for your side. the trick to any battle is not to die for your side but rather to make your opponent die for his.

That's an old quote. i believe the first rendition was by someone famous. lemmie go search...

General George Patton (ww2) wrote:

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but make the other bastard die for his."

he was a sonofabitch, but at least he was OUR sonofabitch. (rommel was the german equivalent)

First off, never ever assume FlashFires are irrelevant. Do so at your own peril. Second thing, i'd highly recommend checking out TexMurphy's Guide to PvP, here. Third, keep reading this thread cause i've clipped a great many quotes by pvpers on teh subject...

Quote:

Here's the situation, two intensities vs two phoons. When they start fighting..... two things can happen, both win win situations for the tensity.

a) One of the tensities gets hurt and flashfires away,
b) one of the phoons gets hurt and flashfires away

Now what happens in situation a :
1a) the intensities chase the running phoon, pounding in as much damage as he runs as SIX phoons would on his tail.
Even if the quant wingman chases a tens, he does 1/6 the damage they're doing to his wingman.
2a) The two intensities converge on the last remaining phoon, tearing it to shreds and if it flashfires, they chase it, pumping out 6 PHOON damage.

1b) The phoons both chase the wounded tensity....the tensity's wingman flies behind them and pumps more damage into one of the phoons than BOTH phoons are doing to his mate. The wounded tensity has enough flashfires to escape without dying.

2b) One phoon chases the wounded tens, the sol wingman chases after that phoon, and the phoon's wingman chases the sol wingman. What happens is that the sol wingman will kill the chasing phoon before the phoon can kill his mate. Once that's done, the running tensity will turn around and help his mate kill the last phoon, who up to this point is likely OUT of flashfires and has only done 1/3 damage to the sol wingman.

3b) Both phoons ignore the running tensity and focus on the last intensity. This intensity runs away as well, running the phoons out of flashfires while it has one left. At this point it can kill one with ms, and gun the other one......OR ms spam one then flashfire to his buddy.......

THAT IS WHY THE FRIEKING INTENSITY IS UBER, AND THE WORST PART IS THAT THESE TACTICS TAKE NO BRAINS TO FIGURE OUT (RUN IF YOU ARE DAMAGED, AND CHASE AND SHOOT SOMEONE THAT IS SHOOTING YOUR MATE)

If there are or ever were any good sol squads, we'll never know, because it's masked by the power of the tens. If gargamel were solrain and they fought the quants, it would be RIDICULOUS.
ONE nazgul has an intensity (Luke) and look at what he does with it. He almost never dies unless lagged, and he pumps out more kills (since he can fire full throttle) than any of us in battles. Would you really want to fight 12 Lukes?

Nix = ammo ammo ammo...it's not go the ability to circle strafe, and it's current acceleration profile sucks. forget anything but chewing on morningstars. (now if they did something with the damned mass/dragfactor of the nix maybe things would be different outside the sim)

phoon = toss up. you're going to have to throttle down in any case, so it's all a matter of what your target is: if it's a nix go with lasers and kill that slug dead (plus a few morningstars never hurt you)...if it's a tens go with hitmen/rrak and waste the sonofab*tch.

Bombers give the option of using quad feathers, and believe me it's nice to have something with lots of range and damage than size2 lasers, but it's still gonna put you in an awful bind when you try to engage anything with a higher turn rate than you...and this'll only become more apparent once size3 lasers arrive (please note: lasers on bombers is dumb, k?)

As for the rangers? lemmie give you a rule to use: the higher the turn rate of your ship, the more attractive lasers become. (course, what weapon to use against what target depends more on stuff like your ship's max speed, power and wpn/modx slots...as shown in my prior paragraphs)

Originally posted by Fellblade You've failed to take into account two things:

1) Lag. Whenever someone's connection lags, both epople see each other flying straight and level. An ammo pilot gets a much, much greater advantage out of this because of superior range and firepower. This is a real factor, and effects dogfights in a big way.

2) Dogfights. When there are multiple people, and you're concentrating on fighting one person, you aren't taking evasive moves vs another; indeed, you may be flying in a patter that makes it ridiculously easy for him to hit you, especially if circling a target.

Ammo power shouldn't be boosted... and... well, I know I'm a laser user but virtually all of my Phoon kills in sim and real space (I have flown one in The Ecclesiarchy) have been using hammers or cobras. So you can use full throttle... curiously not many pilots seem to use this (although Rollio did use Hammers in beta)

everyone sucks at PvP when they first start out. All it takes is practice, patience, and a bit of luck.

Here are some little tips that might help you. When fighting a ship keep it like flat not verticle. When a ship is flat to you. You in turn are flat to it. Most pilots fight using pitch keeping flat makes it harder for them to hit you. When you keep the other ship Verticle then you can and they can walk the the gun shots right up the length cause it's the motion you are traveling in. So horizontal is better.
You can see the way the ship is on the lower left side of the screen.

Second decide on lasers or ammo and stick with it. Ammo is harder to learn but deadlier once you have learned it. An ammo nix is to be feared with a good pilot.

Sim...just hit the sim whenever you can. Ask people what you did wrong when you die. Most of the time they will tell you.

Try fighting people that don't fight all the time. While fighting pilots like Machine is great one of the hard parts is when someone is so much better then you (no offense) it's hard to learn what you did wrong. It's also hard to learn how to fight when a match only lasts for maybe 20 seconds most of the time. You'll be surprised at the people you can kill. I'm not telling you to go down tow...that would be a bad idea. Just hit the sim and ask the lower level pilots or those whom are in non-pvp squads for a fight. Most of the time they are the ones not as skilled as the PvPers.

I do hope you stick around. Like I said it's all a matter of Practice and patience knowing that one day you will be the one sending people home in a pod.

Gohlem

CptMorgan wrote:

Hell, it took me 6 months before I really got any good. And now, after 8 months, I still only consider myself slightly above average. You must develop your skills one at a time. First is understanding your duelist and working on your aim. This is all sim time. Duel every chance you get in the sim. Then, move on to team fights. Try to get 2v2's. It gives you situational awareness. One of my biggest things in team battles was I never knew where I was in sector and what my enemies were doing or where my allies were. I always got one track minded. After spending a bunch of time in space with my squad (arguably one of the best team of pilots in game) I have learned a lot about keeping a wing man and picking targets, etc. It makes a world of difference.

Russian wrote:

Oh, and as much as I love duels, main fun is in PvP when you fight with your wingmates. Take DSA for example, while I prolly can take most of ex-DSA pilots 1v1 (prolly except Dark826 and may be a couple more), but in group fights, those monsters kick ass. Same with Pride of Soria, Tex knows I can whoop his ass 1v1, but when we had 2v2s, 3v3s their teamwork was really impressive and couple times they would win 3:0 (bastages), leaving me and my squadmates pissed off and whining on f2.

My suggestion: find some ppl you enjoy flying with, and form a wing/team and practice with them. Even if you will die, it's still hella of a lot of fun to die together, than alone. And that's the thing about my squad as well, most of us are really average PvPers (except for several individuals, such as Knez or Griffin), but we love PvP, and we love to fly together blowing [bleep] up, be it a twinky or Ridge's attack CRAPtor.

a very smart ammo user can beat a laser user if he controls the fight. he must enter the fight the way he wants to, and counter the circle. it's a simple fact that the pilot with the longest range weapons can control the fight. i mean, think about it. a (smart)lasernix isn't going to enter the fight at anything less than a 60 degree angle(and even that isn't good enough all of the time). you take a counter angle in the opposite direction(down opposed to up, not back opposed to ahead), if you keep do it right, he's never going to get within 1800 unless you screw up or he uses a ff, and even then you have the choice of using ur own ff to counter. when 1v1'ing a lasernix, if i keep ammo, ill drop the cam and use 3 ff. most of the fight should take place before a shot is fired.

this is all refering to a 1v1 situation of course... in group fights it's a completely different story.

People still go all bug-eyed and call me insane when I tell em I was flying a Hitman/Barraks Phoon for each of my 4 kills. At least 2 of those kills I never would have gotten using lasers, as they were 'Tensity chases._________________MadCat
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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' till you can find a rock" --bumper sticker

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MightyGames General Forum Thread
Not sure how solid that FAQ is yet...gonna let it stew for a while and see what the author does to refine his points. Anyways, it's beginning to look promising so go take a gander. (this sort of stuff doesn't grow on trees, doncha know?)

I havent posted about ship ballance in a long time.. and feel I need to stick my nose in here for a while..

Tens vs Nix ballance.

To be honest I personally feel that the ballance between this ships is really good. Sure tens can get away to recharge its shields. Its part of its characteristics this is fine. Nix cant chase its part of its characteristics this is also fine.

There are 5 main PvP scenarios.

1. one on one. This I will not go into at all. Nix wins. Tens looses. All is ok here.

2. Nix on defense. Tensies attack.

When sols are on the attack in oct space there are two ways octs can choose to defend hunt the agressors out of oct space or kill them all off. If they choose to focus on hunting the sols out of oct space all get into nixes and make the sols run home to wake. If they wana make sure to kill them off scouts need to be added to the fleet.

I see absolutly no problem in the fact that octs need to add scouts to hunt down runners. Defenerds win when targets are either dead or run away from oct space. Over all objective is still achived.

3. Nix on attack. Tensies Defend.

When octs attack wake the tensies have really no where to run. As long as the nixes stay close together and near station docking alot they can attack as well as the sols can attack. Difference here if the octs start loosing they have harder to retreat. Though I personaly feel that retreat isnt really IC octavian.

4. Nixes on the hunt.

When hunting a pilot or squad anywhere in space. Say unreg for example. Here the nixes have to add scouts to the fleet. I really dont see anything wrong in this either.

5. Tensies hunt.

This is maybe the most unballanced situation. But this is due to the fact that the nix cant run. But on the other hand if the Tensies are on a hunt they will stay and fight or run hurt bad. When someone hunts you and they run you win. So no reall problem here either.

Summary.

I dont see any reall problems with the tens nix ballance. They are differnt and you need to fight in different ways in the ships. Though I have left out one issue, the hit box. This is what makes it unballanced. Because the hitbox makes it almost impossible to fight in mid sector for nixes. This though is a bug not a ballancing issue.

Ballancing should not take bugs into account. Bugs need to be fixed.

Another thing that gives the Sols an edged that isnt a ballancing issue either is the fact that a tens is easier to fight in. But its up to the senior oct pilots to teach the junior octs. AND THE JUNOIRS NEED TO LISTEN. But there is no ballancing on earth that can help this issue.

Delerium wrote:

The octs have Great Scouts, great Ftr and pretty neat MF. The Sols have shitty scouts but really sweet fighters. The Quants have a excellent bomber (which should be used instead of the Phoon in battles) , nice scouts Great Ftr but really poor if this fighter has no coverage during battle.

DarkAvatar wrote:

When it was said that the phoon is a great pack fighter, that's not what the fighters are supposed to be for. I thought they were meant to be able to operate independantly, not have to rely on support all the time. Yes, IRL having a wingman is important, but if you're without a wingman, and you're toast, there's no way that a fighter will be seen as feasable. I support the phoon getting a fix AFTER EPII comes out. Please?

i used to be a really BIG fan of ammo and really gud with it, but i trained in sim for weeks with lasers and now i cant hit much with ammo, i am a much better with laser now and they never run out of ammo, i can kill all flux with em so dont need to dock when fluxing n can do like 500k exp in a long run BUT!!!! try 2 thorns and a nova for fluxing, use nova 2 kill kraks ect in 1 run and use the 2 lasers to kill c10 etc its well easy as nova has unlimited ammo too, it also confuses enemys when ure firing nova 1 min and lasers next hee hee hee, smash em with nova then lasers close up or nova on big shield ships etc etc etc

Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total

Because when you know you don't need a duelist is a bad habit to start using one - it encourages lazyness.

There's always going to be situations where duelist is better, and some where no duelist is better. A duel is an obvious situation where duelly is better. Back when I was in practise with ammo I could beat most pilots in a duel, but that didn't mean that I was anything special in realspace.

What I mean by this is it's impossible to be truly sure if a certain change is definitely better or worse, because it's better in some situations and worse in others. I have switched to lasers because I've realised that no matter how well I buffed my aim up it wasn't going to win group battles compared to an ability to keep up my targets even to a small extent. With lasers I'm now a fairly average dueller, but I feel like I do a hell of a lot more damage in RS.

Frankly, I see little way for Fell to survive in a nix with a duelly. When we enter battle he usually ends up being targetted by 3+ ships. He has to survive for that period of time before those ships realise that maybe they ought to shoot the ships attacking them.

Indeed, but as pointed out the situation yesterday was hardly representative. You apparently held your own with the nix in question, but the point remains that what you thought was 2 nixes was only one. This being the case I'd say the the non-duelly pilot in question put up a pretty decent fight. Beyond that it's impossible to really extrapolate anything due to the use of the exploit resulting in a 2 on 1.

In the end, the larger the battles become the more important that FF becomes.

"Sure you can ff around in group fights but even those ff run out at some point"

Yes. It's a question, however, of making them last just long enough, not an infinite length of time. If the ability to output damage was all important the craptor would be an uber ship. I know, for example, that Fellblade is a good shot in a duel. Absolutely good enough to justify not using a duelly. I also know maybe 5 other people on EU and US who I would say are unquestionably good enough not to need a duelly. Fell is, IMO, one of them. Proteus I have never fought against, and fought with only when he was in an ammo battletow, so I have absolutely no idea about ;).

Basically, you're simplifying it too much. Using no duelly has advantages and disadvantages. Which you choose depends upon your accuracy difference, your flight style, and the situations that you find yourself in.

Well ok, put up with my stupidity again for a bit then. [Read: The irony is lost on me.] Yaw is the tensies fastest turn. of course you would always do a yaw circle in it... yaw=60 ; pitch=45 ...A phoon is what pitch circles. anyways am I the only one here that thinks the nix is the hardest fighter to hit when the slimest profile is presented? anyone?

Depends. [Read: yes, if yer an idiot.] Yaw circling means that hitting the tensy becomes extremely easy. Pitching tensies are much harder to hit, partly due to the duelist error, and partly because the way to hit a yaw circling tensy is to simply roll 90 degrees to the tensy, at which point you line up correctly with yaw, and have a huge margin of error on your own aim for hitting the thing as you pitch circle.. Personally, in a tensy I use a combination of yaw and pitch for evasive manouveurs, and pitch for circling.

As for hitting targets, it depends again. In a one v one, most people find the nix hardest to hit. In a group fight it is the the tensy. Both of these are due to the duelist errors caused by their shapes. The phoon is definitely the easiest ship to hit

Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:27 am; edited 3 times in total

When fighting someone, it is rare that you [Read: anyone?] are at full throttle, so whenever I am engaging someone I am eating 4 thorns and only giving 3. It DOES make a difference no matter how much you want to try to negate that fact. Believe it or not I have flown the nix and phoon, and understand the different strengths and weaknesses. Also, it is the phoon that has the get outta jail free card. Whenever a phoon wants to escape me, all it has to do is run. And as long as Ive used up ONE of my ff there is no way in hell I will ever catch it. The phoon is the only one that cannot shoot at full throttle, but it can outrun any other fighter in the universe and this is a great advantage. [Read: assuming you're dumb (smart) enough not to use Combined Arms]

Octavian Perspective wrote:

FYI - a running phoon can easily caught if you're [Read: Nix pilot] willing to chase it over a few sectors because it has so little AB. [Read: 1engine=10minFuel; 2engines=5minFuel]

Dimwit Sol (same one. yesss, surprising?) wrote:

It has the same amount of ab as the sol ship, and if you chase it over a few sectors, your sure to get ganked by his backup. (noob mistake)

This may be true, but the Phoon uses it AB constantly while fighting, just go look at a duel between a Laser Tens and Laser Phoon, and that's a sim example. In RS it's even worse, you can't drop your throttle for a long time or you'll get shredded by ammo (bigass profile + low velocity = big ouchies).

Zaltys (The balanced approach) wrote:

If you aren't using full throttle a lot when you're flying a tensy, you must be using the frankly very odd tactic of trying to take a nix head to head - which is guaranteed to give you problems if you have no missiles. The standard tactic when flying a tensy is to call a target and have, say, X pilots hit it. The tensy the nix is engaging won't be using full throttle too much, but the other X-1 will - particularly if the nix pulls off a flashfire circle, or tries to ff around it's friends. Of course, if the nix is foolish enough to run straight you just kill it, again using your full throttle capabilites. The nixes support will have a lot of trouble hitting the tensies due to the extreme difference in T/M ratio.

I agree that in a one versus one situation you aren't at full throttle too much - which is why the phoon isn't bad (in the hands of a good pilot) in a duel.

Or the not-so-odd tactic of ff circle fighting which btw happens quite often even in large engagements.

Zaltys (replying) wrote:

Indeed, but again only the pilot that the nix is targeting would feel any kind of need to FF circle. There's still the other X-1 pilots targeting the nix that will probably be at high throttle settings.

Another [SPAM]Navy fuckwit wrote:

To answer your last statement about the phoon. They will fire all guns when engaging. Most experienced phoon pilots use FF to circle their targets at a high rate of speed while keeping their throttle low to acheive a gun superiority. The only time they cant fire full guns in an engagement is: [Read: BLAH BLAH BLAH]

Zaltys wrote:

I suggest you fly a phoon before making this statement, because it is simply not true. Phoon pilots that use all their ffs circling have a horrible tendency to die to the still fully ffed up tensities friends.

I've fought with and against Quants, and I have to say, I can't remember a single pilot who does that (outside duels). Experienced Phoon pilots know, just like Octs, that they have to save their FF's when fighting Tensies.

That Solrain again wrote:

Your argument assumes that the nix is outnumbered 2 to 1. This makes the argument invalid as any of the hfs will get wasted in 2 to 1 odds. If the nix isnt outnumbered and he has a buddy as well, then the nixes buddy should then target tensy #2 that is attacking nix #1.

I'm going to state something in case Zaltys was defeated by witty repartee: In a furball nix pilots have the disadvantage when it comes to team fighting because their ship is the worst for that, apparently.

Just a point, due to the extreme difficulty in vectoring on a tensy that is engaiging your buddies at even close to full throttle, even in a "fair fight" the nix being targeted is *is* outnumbered and only very skilled and well organised groups can defend their wingmen in such a situation.

I've got a philosophical question for you all. Why is the emphasis on killing the enemy? Wouldn't driving them off accomplish the same goal? Isn't making the Sols/Quants/Octs flee the same as sending them home in pods? As far as I can see, the only difference is in one case you get a number to increase your kill stats, and in the other you don't. (and I'm talking about PvP war type combat, not bounty hunting or PoD or something like that where you have an extra goal to destroy your opponent)
[Read: Seeing as how the economy is FUBAR, the logistics side of it is irrelevant and taken for granted (not included as disclaimer)]reason why Muffy included said disclaimer was some fuckwit flamed Doomsday over just that excuse

Anyone playing tiddlywinks with 3/4gunslot versus 3/4shieldslot debates...*BTW, it looks like [SOL]Navy was attempting to sucker Quant PvP n00bs into using FF like it's going out of style*

What's gonna be great is that finally mixed fleets will become a requirement to do well. Until now, single ship fleets have always been the route to success, but no longer. Dragons are a great ship, but will suck ass in multi ship combat without nixes to take faster moving ships off their asses (The dragon is slow, and has a terrible turn rate, but has good firepower and excellent damage absorption. Monsoons lack the pure firepower to take on Dragons, but in a mixed fleet with Tornados (these are evil against the Dragon due to their agility advantage. This is noticeable even in a 1v1 scenario) and phoons will kick ass. The Intruder combined with Cudas and Tensities is gonna rock too.

Please, fgs, don't judge the ships before you've been using them in RS for a month or two. The Dragon looks by far the best on paper, and even better in the sim (It's possible to use the Intruder PP, giving full throttle firing. It's way too heavy to use in RS, though). In RS, it's going to be a totally different story. The Dragon has weaknesses (largely the problem that if something sneaks up on it it can't turn round well to hit them). I found the following quote by TexMurphy (a Solrain TP) highly inspiring

TexMurphy wrote:

hey guys.

i don't even know where to start on this but let me start with the comment that mixed fleets never happen. Well, we have basically not seen them YET. Thing is with ep2 alot of things will change. One of the clear indications we had from testing was that mixed fleets outclass single class fleets by a mile. This was true for all 3 factions. Let me give you observations from the sol vs oct tests. even numbers even skill.

Dragons vs Tensies
tensies can win this but its damn hard. but tensies dont need to die and can always get away. though edge here was to the dragons.

Dragons vs Truders
the problem here is the hug learning curve of the truder. most sol pilots are not used to the power drain. truder is the hardest to learn of the hfs. but when having pilots who can fly power drained ships in the sol fleet it was even. where the edge goes depends on if missiles where used or not. if no missiles slight dragon advantage. if missiles even to slight truder adv.

Dragons vs Cudas
cudas take out alot of dragons before dieing. but they do die in the end as they are slow and cant run. edge to dragons.

Dragons vs Truders, Cudas and Tensies
this is wher it gets interesting. the cudas dont take as much heat and can do even more damage. if the octs gun for the cudas truders eat them alive. the tensie are virtually untargeted and can get in behind the dragons. anything that gets on a dragons arse in RS will waste it as it cant turn back on it. in this fleet setup the solrain fleet won a very large portion of the fights, so very clear edge to the sols here.

Dragons and Nixes vs Truders, Cudas and Tensies
In the pure dragon fleet vs mixed fleet the dragon was hurting bad from its bad turn rate. when the octs assign nixxes to the fleet to scrape targets off the dragons it helps the octs alot. sols still need to focus dragon first so there will be "free" nixes around which hurts. the sols have to deploy the tensies on the nixes here but the combo of truder and cuda can take out the dragons. this is even very even, if ther is an advantage it is to solrain but extreamly slight.

So yes the mixed fleets did prove stronger in our tests. though we need to wait and see what happens on real space. as much as us testers need to observe the development in rs but the players have to work to get to know the ships and the new tactics. this is why we really have to wait and see.

The cap sizes.....
It brings one of the few variety of ship loadouts that JG offers. For my laser nix I mount a jug to give chain fire. It's harder to hit reliably with, but if you get good with it you save about 4k mass over a pint and can do just as much damage - a compromise on equipment. One of the things that JG really needs is more choice in what you equip. Aside from weapons, caps are the only items that actually do this at the moment.

Muffy Asks: please explain to me the use of mounting anything heavier than a spore cap for pvp that doesn't use novas, and how this is some sort of "choice" (it's not unless yer some kind of freaking idiot!)

Because using a spore cap gives chain fire. Due to the shield animation lasting a constant time that isn't dependent upon how hard you hit, it's very hard to tell how much you're hitting. Also because using volley fire allows you to turn away for a short time to improve the quality of your circle. Lastly, if you're flying a power deficient ship like a phoon, using a cap like the pint allows you to store up some energy, allowing you to get a full volley in first when at full throttle rather than it's usual 1.9 thorn hits.

Is it just me or are people ignorantly calling the Tens the uber ship of the regular fighters again?

The tens is not that good and never has been, yes there were some balancing problems in the past, but now its even, we have 3 guns at full power, quants get 4 at weak power, and octs get 4 at decent power, depending on loadout.

Now compare tens to everything else....

Tens vs Nix, fair fight either one can live, depends on the pilot skill. But what ultimatly makes the difference is the nix armor and the Tens' lack of the 4th gun. If the tens had that 4th gun, it would be no contest every time, but no, its a pack fighter as everyone keeps saying.

Tens vs phoon, again a close fight, depends on the pilot skill. What the phoon has is awsome turn rate, and 4 thorns up close while power circling, only way a tens can beat that is to know how to counter it. but either way, even fight over all.

Wheres the uberness ? I don't see it......

Now go back to the dragon........ yeah it can be beat 1v1, but thats wasting alot of FFs to get behind it and at that a smart pilot would know how to pull out and get the tens/nix/phoon back in aimable view.

Same can be said for the monsoon and intruder, but their downfall is the shields, shields no bigger than the heavy fighter ? are you joking ? I don't care about the over power, as eventually it doesn't mean much, what counts is shield size and the fact that the over power means it doesn't have to slow down to lay waste to the other HFs who have to power down and be sitting ducks for that thing since they have such small shields they don't last long.

And it just gets worse in group combat. A fleet of dragons is better off than a fleet of nixs versus a Solrain mixed fleet, any damn day of the week, but the chances of success for the octs just multiplies as you add in the nixs and other oct fighters.

Why ? Because, with our HF, it can be made short work in no time by 2-3 nixs and it wouldn't even come close to killing even one of them, even with help, because even if you did fend off one you still have the other going at your armor, and before you can even get away or try to defend yourself, your dead.

You want to know what the Solrain mixed fleet is ? Intruders, Tens, Invader, bomber.

How is this fleet combated and easily stomped down ?

Go for the bombers, remove the missles from the field, to protect the Dragons, then go for the Intruders, removing the fire power and more missles, after that, run off the tens and slaughter the invaders.

Doesn't take a genious to figure this out.

Cpt.Morgan wrote:

And it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there is no way in hell any of those ships will be taken down before there missiles are fired.

Personally, I wouldn't be using Vaders at all. Too slow, not enough firepower.

Use the tensities to keep the nixes as busy as possible (given your T/M ratios, you can move between nixes at leisure. You don't need to go for the kill, just keep them off the Cudas). Split the Intruders between nix vaping duty and Dragon distraction (all targeting one Dragon at a time), Use the cudas to attack the Dragons (Using at least two cudas to each Dragon. When one dies, pull out to recharge if necessary and go after the next Dragon. Note that I am not suggesting you need double the number of cudas compared to Dragons). Spam missiles at the nixes first to keep them busy. Once the nixes are out of the fray the Dragons are fairly easy meat. Finish off the rest of the missiles at the Dragons, and all move in and kill them. Cudas should try to get to the rear of the Dragons at all times.

Of course, it's not going to be easy, but what you need to use is the fact that Dragons have a lot of difficulty covering each other due to their turn rates and T/M ratios. Combine this with the cuda's uber profile (given that most Dragons will be running on ammo), and you should find that the Dragons are pretty terrible at pulling enemies off their wingmates.....particularly given how quickly a Dragon will die to two or three Cudas. Always remember that the Dragon is really slow. If you want to pull out to recharge shields, you can. Hit and run.

EDIT: And how is a Dragon going to kill something that isn't engaging (or isn't engaging heavily) until it's missiles have hit?

This document covers the common aspects of flying heavy ships in fleets. It will stay away from ship specific issues as far as possible, and so should be equally relevent for Phoenix and Dragon.

Why thrust to mass ratio is important

This is the most important part of the entire document. If you chose to read any part, read this. Thrust to mass ratio is more important than speed, turn rate, or profile (given halfway reasonable values for those three). In a large battle, itís thrust to mass ratio that determines your ability to evade and stay on a target even more than speed.

To fully understand why T/M ratio is important, itís helpful to have a basic understanding of vector values. When a Phoenix is at full speed in a particular direction, and turns 90į to itís current direction, it has to accelerate from 0 to get to full speed on itís new heading. This is because velocity is a vector value Ė it has a value in a particular direction. Changing direction will cause you to have to reaccelerate to a certain degree, depending on how much of a turn you make.

Consider the following scenario: A Phoenix is chasing an Intensity down. Both are at full speed. If the Phoenix is 1600 behind the Intensity, the Intensity will require over 30 seconds to get out of range, by which time it will be very dead. If it makes (for example) a 90į turn to the left, both ships are effectively starting from 0 velocity along their new heading. The Intensityís better acceleration (due to itís better T/M ratio) will get it out of range in a very short period of time. Expand this scenario to a large battle, where ships are turning all the time, and you can see why heavy ships have trouble staying within range of their target.

T/M ratio is important for staying on the tail of a fleeing ship, and evading a ship that is on your tail.

Minimising mass

Given the extreme importance of T/M ratio, it is also important that you maximise this as much as possible. Try using a smaller, lighter capacitor and using chain fire. A jug laser Phoenix has around the same T/M as an ammo Intensity. Given their similar speeds, a jug laser Phoenix can actually stay on that Intensity for a fair period of time, depending on the evasive manouveurs the Intensity pulls.

If you are using ammo, seriously consider switching to lighter weapons. Iíve been an ammo pilot since I started playing Jumpgate. Switching to lasers has given me a serious performance boost Ė I donít do quite as much damage when I hit, but I get to hit a lot more often. No matter how much better you are with ammo, youíre almost always more use to the fleet that youíre flying with on lasers. This may become less of an issue with the huge damage an ammo Dragon puts out, compared to the Featherfire and laser equivalents.

Flying in fleets

Okay, with the theory out of the way, hereís some of the practise.

Stick Together!

I canít emphasise enough how important this is. Spread out heavy ships have a hell of a job supporting each other, as by the time theyíve lumbered over to help out, the guy in trouble is dead. To solve this, just stick close to each other. That way when you need help itís nearby.

Flashfire useage

First point is: never, ever flashfire after a lighter, faster ship unless youíre certain that you can kill it using only one FF. Itís a waste of FFs, and youíre seperating yourself from the pack Ė a good way to get yourself killed. If this is the case, return to the pack as quickly as possible after you have done this.

FFs should largely be saved for evasive purposes. When youíre getting hit hard and you need to escape, do not FF in a straight line. Youíre running away from all your support and dooming yourself to a quick death. FF around the pack of ships, or use half the FF to run straight out, and the other half to get back again. The FF will make you a lot harder to hit, and since youíre running around the pack there will usually be someone free and nearby to save your butt.

Vectoring

This one is a biggy. This is how to stay in range of an enemy ship long enough to kill it when itís on the run from another player. If the ship is going to go past you, do not head towards it and snap off a shot, then turn round to follow. Instead (assuming the ship is not targeting you) do a 180 and face towards where the enemy ship is going. Accelerate so that as the enemy comes past you you are coming close to full speed. You then get a lot of free shots in while they have trouble escaping. Watch the enemy in your hud, and make sure they arenít shifting targets to hit you. Also, try to make sure you donít let them line you up for a divebomb.

Using up their FFs: If you think youíre going down, this is how to use up their FFs before you snuff it. If youíre really lucky, you might even get away. As they burn an FF to catch you, turn about 170į, and head straight back towards them at a very slight angle (to prevent getting divebombed and hit easily by ammo). They will shoot past you, and the majority of their FF will be wasted.

Aim

Bit of a nasty one, this, as aim is always going to be important in a ship that has so much trouble manouvering. Nobody can teach it to you, really. Just practise in the sim, and get yourself a good joystick. Try not to get disheartened Ė it takes a long time and a lot of practise to get a good aim.

Voice comms

Use them. Youíll need them. If you're in trouble, shout for help. If you don't have a target, ask if anyone needs help.

Help your wingmates

This one is a bit obvious, but always help your wingmates out. If they call for help and youíre in a situation to help, do so. Donít be afraid of engaging a target you think your wingmate might get on his own. The main thing is to take the enemy down, not get the kill for yourself. By the same token, if youíre choosing between getting an easy kill and doing something that will help your fleet more, ignore the easy kill.

Approaching an enemy

If youíre heading towards an enemy that is heading towards you, NEVER approach them in a straight line. Slow ships are vulnerable to missiles, regardless of any hitbox problems. Approach at an angle to the enemy, pulling up to face them at about 3k. This alone would stop more than a quarter of oct deaths.

Losing missiles

If you fly a heavy ship, you're going to get spammed. It's a fact of life. Don't die and call the other pilot a lame spammer, lose the missiles and go kill them :P. The best way to lose missiles is to stay near a stationary object such as a gate, station/building, or roid field. Gates are best, as you can either fly through them or jump out. To lose the missiles on other objects, target them and position the stationary object between you and the missiles. You may need to FF to do so. If you're under attack from another vessel, FF away keeping the enemy targeted. Get the enemy between you and the station, and you will hopefull lose the missiles. You can then reengage.

Gates

Fight around gates when you are in a heavy ship. When you jump through a gate, you can lose missiles and often lose enemy pilots that are targeting you too - many pilots will not follow you through, due to the situation on the other side being unknown to them. Never let an enemy tempt you into the middle of a sector. It's asking to get your group split up, spammed to death, and dead. Gates also give you group a landmark to stay near.