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Truesight

Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:13 PM

Thought I'd make a thread for fellow commanders to share thoughts on how our army is best played in the new edition. I'll start it off.

I think some of the biggest changes are in 8th editions rules itself rather than the specific Guard index. A few huge ones:

Units can withdraw from combat.

Combined with our get back in the fight order, this means that screening troops just became amazing. Block the enemy's advance and pull your chumps off the line for your shooting phase so that you can still pour fire onto the advancing enemy. Our orders mean that these units can also shoot too and force another overwatch. Nasty. Considering turn 1 charges are definitely a thing now we want lots of chaff to absorb these initial hits and give our armies time to grind. Also a hidden buff for flamers. Flame the enemy in your shooting phase, use it just as effectively in overwatch during the enemy assault phase. Withdraw and repeat ad infinitum.

Casualties are chosen by the defender and no more challenges

Hidden power axes, plasma pistols, special weapons are back. We can remove chump lasgunners first as we like to preserve the killiest parts of our units no matter where the shots/hits are coming from.

Reserves come on when you choose, and do not scatter

Huge. We can now wait on our enemies advancing armies and pick the perfect time to overwhelm his backline objectives with our reserves, and we have great options for it. Tempestus command squads with 4 plasma and 5 man rough rider squads pack a punch on a budget and mean we are much more mobile than before with no more relying on dice. Corner camping is a thing of the past. We also have another hidden buff here. Our enemy has reserve shenanigans planned as well, and needs the same 9'' space requirement we do. We however have two advantages. We can cover our board with enough troops to deny this, and have the long range punch to blow holes in enemies deployments to ensure our own.

Characters can't be chosen as targets unless they are the closest

Just amazing for our new style of army. Of course we still have to protect them from snipers, but hiding them out of line of sight using terrain and vehicles is still an option. Supporting this is again our amazing indirect fire options. Mortar squads, Basilisks, Manticores and Wyverns should all make sure that they remove any enemy snipers on the first turn to allow us to really leverage our characters.

Vehicles shoot like monstrous creatures

All weapons can shoot from any part of a tank, at different targets. Sponsons arcs no longer limit our options. Used to being concerned about those 8 heavy flamers on your Baneblade not all having a target in their arc? Now they always will, even in melee, and overwatch!

Tactics thoughts:

With these changes I think our style of fighting should change. The new ideal is that the enemy advances as little as possible before running straight into our platoons and conscripts. These then begin a fighting retreat for the rest of the game, crumpling the enemy under lasfire and flamers leaving our long ranged units to methodically take out key enemy units, before we take apart the enemies backline with our reserves.

We need to make sure that fast enemies can't just rush us into a corner, so I propose we think about the concept of deep battle, we will have options to participate everywhere on the board. I don't want to give my enemy the ability to advance in one direction at top speed and be able to engage everything when he gets to my side. I want him slowed, and pulled between both sides of the board. To this end I personally will be dividing my armies into three different roles. Midfield units, Backline units and Contesting units. I'll give some examples.

Midfield:

This part of the army has the task of claiming as much ground in the opening turn as possible while presenting a wall of fire and flesh to slow the enemy advance. They are buying us maneuverability and time. Example units:

Conscripts w/ platoon commander and commissar- Iconic, invaluable. Deploy on the edge of your deployment zone, covering your side. Use Move! Move! Move! order to run 12'' + 2d6'' in the first turn and claim as much ground as you can. Shoot, fight and die gloriously over the next few turns. Using cover and a primaris psyker, you can potentially have a 3+ save on 50 guys, try and stay alive for as long as you can and play blocker.

Hellhounds with heavy flamer-The Inferno Cannon is dangerous and multi role now as it toasts troops and armour quite effectively. And it's still fast and quite tough.

Flamer bus Chimera- Dual heavy flamer chimera with either 2 special weapon squads with flamers, 3 command squads with flamers or veterans with 3 flamers and heavy flamer. Point this at a table side where you don't want infantry to exist. 14d6 of flamers is devastation.

Platoons- Flamer with plasma pistol and axe. 57 points for a lot of mobile capability.

Punisher Russ- Punisher cannon and 3 heavy flamers. You've got 10'' of movement now, may as well use it for some close support. They overwatch now, and can fight. Can move 20'' +2d6 a turn with orders hilariously.

Backline:

They are here to hold our objectives, prevent flanks and remove key enemy units from the field as efficiently as possible.

Battle cannon tanks with all heavy bolters, Basilisks, Manticores, Mortars and Wyverns, Hydra’s- Fire support. Quite a lot tougher than it used to be

Enginseers -Because the only thing better than tougher vehicles is tougher regenerating vehicles. Repairs happen in the movement phase, just in time to potentially repair their profile up a ballistic skill step for the next phase.

Heavy weapon squads with Lascannon/Autocannon/Missile launcher- Cheaper and more efficient at what they do. Morale less of an issue, and they take orders automatically, much improved.

Medic command squads with Company Commanders- To provide healing and orders for your backline heavy weapon squads and platoons

Platoons with Lascannon Plasma gun-67 points for some great damage and a cheap footprint. Remember to split fire.

Ratlings- We're the only ones allowed to have characters. Move them out of line of sight blocking terrain and back using scarper to keep them alive.

Contesting:

Drop in the backline when the enemy is vulnerable or when it is time to take objectives for the win. Keep them cheap, these units are not going to be participating in the majority of the battle.

Truesight

Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:52 PM

Truesight

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Chapter Name: Krieg 8th Armoured Regiment

Niche strategies that may be fun.

The orbital strike: 3 command squads with 4 melta each in a Valkyrie. Move up 20'' with Valkyrie and grav chute out 9'' from something big you want to kill. This is a disembark so you can move, then advance....then nuke something out of the game. Or multiple things.

The rolling bunker: Stormlord filled with heavy weapons squads and Sergeant Harker. This used to be a strategy already but it got better. Stormlord already has great firepower, but now it can protect all your fragile heavy weapons squads, keep them all in the 6'' reroll bubble, and retreat and fire from combats, bringing its lovely heavy weapons squads firing with it.

leth

Posted 06 June 2017 - 03:01 PM

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Personally I see a unit of 50 conscripts, a commissar, and a officer being crucial to any imperial list. It is just so many wounds and a perfect bubble wrap for the rest of your army against the forces that are out there.

There is little to no competition concerns for slots anymore with the new force org charts and troops dont do anything special outside of making it easier to unlock the +9 cmd point detachment(which is significant dont get me wrong).

One thing I have been considering is taking advantage of our cmd squads being BS3+ now and giving them sniper rifles. I am not a fan of heavy weapon squads because they are Bs4+ and concentrated points. However for a few points more more base we can get them to BS3+ and spread them out.

Something like a cmd squad, two sniper, and a lascannon team. 48 points each and it puts out some nice long range firepower. 5 such teams for 250 points is not a bad investment IMO. With the reliability of orders giving them re-roll 1s for 15pts per unit(HQ is only 30 pts for two orders!!) it can really add up. Lascannons is mainly because that is the DKOK heavy weapons bases that I have haha. For the actual HWTs just put something cheap like mortars on them so that you dont really care if they die. Remember, heavy weapons teams are 4 points PER MODEL!!! not 8. So a mortar is 9 points! that is crazy good!!

Gothical

Posted 06 June 2017 - 05:20 PM

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Regular Scions may now take 4 Special Weapons too, however I would caution against this in some builds. If you also take a Scion Officer with Command Rod (and you should if using multiple Scion units) then taking only 2 Special Weapons may be better, as you can gain more from First Rank Fire than with an extra 2 Specials, especially in the case of the Meltagun.

Deepstriking larger squads of Scions aggressively may still be a trap, you have to deploy >9" away and Hot-Shots are 18" range, meaning no Rapid Fire on the drop. The Taurox Prime is so good now that it is a very viable option (32 S4 shots for AI work, 5-11 shots for light AT work). Given that Reserves are player-controlled and Deepstrike is perfectly accurate, it is perfectly possible to rush 20 Scions up the board in Tauroxes and then Deepstrike in an Officer to engineer perfect FRF scenarios.

Priests, Commissars, Psykers and Officers now all have their unique support roles which is fantastic. You can make even Conscripts utterly bonkers - stack Fix Bayonets! with a Priest's +1A aura; stack FRF! with an Astropath's Astral Divination and Terrifying Visions; stack Cover, a Psyker using Psychic Barrier and a Commissar.

Artillery - be it a Manticore or the humble Mortar Squad - is probably going to be vital to kill enemy Sniper units or other character-hunters given how much the Guard will rely on aura-stacking to turn the Guardsman into a real threat on the tabletop.

Nah, no one takes a ship like the XIIth. Imagine being stuck in a space-bound tin can with only short hallways to set up firing points. It'd be like releasing a pack of PCP'ed up wolverines (the animals, not multiple Hugh Jackmans) into a locker room and blocking all the exits.

They aren't stuck inside a ship with you, you're trapped on a ship with them.

However, the First Son and his Templar Brethren are who I'd bet on to defend that ship

Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:31 PM

mertbl

Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:08 PM

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I really like the idea of dropping bullgryn out of a valk. Bring a 2nd valk with priest and officer and a pair of command squads with medics to put wounds back on them, plus attacks from the priest aura and the fight order. Or drop the valk and DS in some scion command squads with medics.

Gothical

Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:21 PM

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I really like the idea of dropping bullgryn out of a valk. Bring a 2nd valk with priest and officer and a pair of command squads with medics to put wounds back on them, plus attacks from the priest aura and the fight order. Or drop the valk and DS in some scion command squads with medics.

One thing to watch out for is that, unlike Hospitallers and Apothecaries, the Guard Medi-Pack cannot bring a Bullgryn back from the dead as it is limited to reviving 1-wound models only (furthermore, unlike Medi-Packs and Hospitallers, Apothecaries automatically heal D3 wounds with no roll, but still only revive on a 4+). From our point of view it really sucks, but I do quite like that those battlefield medics that should be more highly trained are better at healing the higher up the "elite" scale you go.

Still works (im)perfectly for patching up the Ogryn, but it is something to watch out for when playing games - not all former "healers" are equal any more.

morroccomole likes this

Nah, no one takes a ship like the XIIth. Imagine being stuck in a space-bound tin can with only short hallways to set up firing points. It'd be like releasing a pack of PCP'ed up wolverines (the animals, not multiple Hugh Jackmans) into a locker room and blocking all the exits.

They aren't stuck inside a ship with you, you're trapped on a ship with them.

However, the First Son and his Templar Brethren are who I'd bet on to defend that ship

morroccomole

Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:39 PM

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One thing to watch out for is that, unlike Hospitallers and Apothecaries, the Guard Medi-Pack cannot bring a Bullgryn back from the dead as it is limited to reviving 1-wound models only (furthermore, unlike Medi-Packs and Hospitallers, Apothecaries automatically heal D3 wounds with no roll, but still only revive on a 4+). From our point of view it really sucks, but I do quite like that those battlefield medics that should be more highly trained are better at healing the higher up the "elite" scale you go.

Still works (im)perfectly for patching up the Ogryn, but it is something to watch out for when playing games - not all former "healers" are equal any more.

Totally missed the implication of only being able to revive 1-wound models! Still, they are great for keeping your commanders in tip-top shape.

Truesight

Posted 07 June 2017 - 03:11 PM

My understanding reserves though is only units which state they can start in reserves can do so?

Yup, so Stormtroopers and Rough riders for us.

One thing I've discovered, We can't go full demolition mode anymore, demo charges are 'grenades' and thus can only be thrown once per unit per turn. Still, they are so cheap it may be worth dropping one in each special weapon squad anyway.

Also Tank commanders can't order themselves, unless they are Pask. Which with a 2+ BS makes him rather dangerous.

HenricusTyranicus

Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:55 PM

Also Tank commanders can't order themselves, unless they are Pask. Which with a 2+ BS makes him rather dangerous.

I wouldn't get too attached to that interpretation for Pask's orders. The rule says other Cadian Tank Commanders.

The rule makes a note of the fact that he can order others. In terms of what the rule actually says, though, it says he can order Friendly Cadian Leman Russes within 6 inches. Pask is Cadian, he is a Leman Russ, boom, we're solid.

micdicdoc

Posted 07 June 2017 - 08:54 PM

I think you make so many good points here, @Truesight! This one here is the main one I have been thinking about since GW teased it a wee while ago:

Units can withdraw from combat.

Combined with our get back in the fight order, this means that screening troops just became amazing. Block the enemy's advance and pull your chumps off the line for your shooting phase so that you can still pour fire onto the advancing enemy. Our orders mean that these units can also shoot too and force another overwatch. Nasty. Considering turn 1 charges are definitely a thing now we want lots of chaff to absorb these initial hits and give our armies time to grind. Also a hidden buff for flamers. Flame the enemy in your shooting phase, use it just as effectively in overwatch during the enemy assault phase. Withdraw and repeat ad infinitum.

I think that in order to really pull this off, deployment of the Infantry Squads behind the chaff is key. Because units can't shoot through each other, and we no longer have combined squads, how do you think it best to deploy both the chaff and squads behind to make the most of shooting after "Get Back into the Fight"?

morroccomole

Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:24 PM

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I just had a thought about the "Fix Bayonets" order. If you plan on using it often, it will prevent any model equipped with a pistol in the ordered unit from shooting it. So perhaps Sergeants with bolt or plasma pistols aren't as tasty an option as was first imagined?

Brother Talarian

Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:44 PM

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Unfortunately I only see, for the time being, get back into the fight, being useful on large conscript blobs. I'm fairly certain any CC unit that gets into base with our infantry unit will demolish it in one go.

And additional thing to consider, falling back doesn't necessarily mean that you need to move backwards. You can "fall back forwards, even behind the enemy unit if able.

This can then limit the enemies movement. Or place in a favourable one.

morroccomole

Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:59 PM

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Unfortunately I only see, for the time being, get back into the fight, being useful on large conscript blobs. I'm fairly certain any CC unit that gets into base with our infantry unit will demolish it in one go.

From the one game I played, charging terminators/characters worked out well for me. Keep in mind, standard damage no longer spills over. This means that specialty CC models that nuke 2-6 damage on a wound are at a disadvantage, when each wound that goes through will only kill one guy. Coupled with there being no penalty to charging after shooting, I just moved up, did FRFSRF in the shooting phase, and then charged preemptively on my turn so I could swing first. We have a lot more options now, and I am super excited!

Edit: The viability will, of course, depend on your local meta. Ork Boyz are looking mighty fierce, on paper. I probably wouldn't try the above on them

Brother Talarian

Posted 07 June 2017 - 11:58 PM

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Unfortunately I only see, for the time being, get back into the fight, being useful on large conscript blobs. I'm fairly certain any CC unit that gets into base with our infantry unit will demolish it in one go.

From the one game I played, charging terminators/characters worked out well for me. Keep in mind, standard damage no longer spills over. This means that specialty CC models that nuke 2-6 damage on a wound are at a disadvantage, when each wound that goes through will only kill one guy. Coupled with there being no penalty to charging after shooting, I just moved up, did FRFSRF in the shooting phase, and then charged preemptively on my turn so I could swing first. We have a lot more options now, and I am super excited!

Edit: The viability will, of course, depend on your local meta. Ork Boyz are looking mighty fierce, on paper. I probably wouldn't try the above on them

I agree, I see so many tactics and new options available to us and I'm super excited. I suppose I was looking at "get back into the fight" in a... well I don't even remember now, nor do I remember what the rule does. But I had thought it was something along the lines of being able to shoot once you've fallen back? I just don't see many units besides blobs having survived that initial combat is what I'm thinking... I think.