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Thats fine. If your not interested in standing up for your rights as a consumer then thats your perogative. Vote with your wallet. We have the power as consumers, dont be a fool and easily throw that away.

Well - my rights havent been violated - there isnt a single game I have ever bought under any DRM system that I cant play today as well as I could the day I bought it.

I would much prefer there to be no DRM - but I understand the reasons some developers think they need it. What I hate is that guys like you blame the people who create the stuff rather than those who steal it.

Because you have had a good experience with SES, does not meant that many others have not. Theoretically, you could be their one satisfied customer.

I, on the other hand, have had nothing but bad experiences with SES. And your good experiences don't cancel mine out.

Oh, by the way, I try to support this hobby whenever I can. I don't bad mouth developers lightly.

Yeah, and I've had some recent bad experiences with Matrix and Battlefront. But I don't go on and on and on and on about them for years the way some people have done with SES. This thread started out as a very interesting comparison between Jutland and the new Steam and Iron game (something very relevant for me since I have been playing Jutland and am interested in purchasing Steam and Iron). But, as always whenever an SES game is mentioned, the thread was quickly hijacked by those who wish to re-hash the issue of DRM and SES's supposedly bad customer service.

I still dont get these DRM whiners - are they saying they dont like the system SES has in place because it is a bit more restrictive than say the Matrix system - and therefore works - or they would only buy from a Matrix type serial number system - which is so easy to break it is essentially worthless in the first place. They are then presumably arguing that no producer of games anywhere should be allowed to have any DRM system.

The serial number system used by Matrix seems to work just fine for them. Saying that, as a consumer, you prefer one form of DRM over another is hardly arguing against all forms of DRM.

Originally Posted By DBeves (25 FEB 2012 2:07pm)

But I say again - the tiresome DRM whiners strike again - yet another topic about a game decends into nothing more than a sounding board for their endlessly repeated issues with something you either care about or dont - but which gain nothing from the excrutiating monotony with which the same people repeat them.

The same can be said for the DRM supporters who try to control every conversation about DRM by drowning it out with their montonous, excruciating rants calling anyone who questions DRM "whiners".

I have noticed that a lot of indie studios make this mistake. I have a major complaint about combat mission battle for normandy for the same reason. However I think it must have something to do with how complicated it is to program?

Anyways this irks me as well so I am with you there.

Not sure I understand the CM comment - moving the camera with the right mouse button is in the game

I still dont get these DRM whiners - are they saying they dont like the system SES has in place because it is a bit more restrictive than say the Matrix system - and therefore works - or they would only buy from a Matrix type serial number system - which is so easy to break it is essentially worthless in the first place. They are then presumably arguing that no producer of games anywhere should be allowed to have any DRM system.

The serial number system used by Matrix seems to work just fine for them. Saying that, as a consumer, you prefer one form of DRM over another is hardly arguing against all forms of DRM.

Originally Posted By DBeves (25 FEB 2012 2:07pm)

But I say again - the tiresome DRM whiners strike again - yet another topic about a game decends into nothing more than a sounding board for their endlessly repeated issues with something you either care about or dont - but which gain nothing from the excrutiating monotony with which the same people repeat them.

The same can be said for the DRM supporters who try to control every conversation about DRM by drowning it out with their montonous, excruciating rants calling anyone who questions DRM "whiners".

Well of course it is when the other DRM you prefer is worthless in its stated intention - ie to stop people pirating a game.

The point is - as it seems to have sailed right between your ears is that the thread was not about DRM - is was about the game - its the DRM boring, tiresome whiners who turned it into a thread about it. Start all the threads you want Titled DRM issues - again ... at least I dont have to sort through all the non comments to find the info on a game. there is in fact I beleive - as you seem to have missed that one as well a forum specifically for DRM posting - so why not take it there so those of us who dont want to have to listen to the same old stuff repeated ad nauseum dont have to read it and the computing game forum is actually left for games? Radical ...

Well if I could shame them into not stealing games that would be great, but I cant. The only party here I can influence, with money, is the developers.

So in the case of a small wargame developer like SES then you are essentially saying I dont care if people are stealing your product and you are losing money - the fact I dont have to deal with a slightly inconvenient DRM system is more important so I wont buy your game till you dont ask for it. Personally I would rather take their point, support them and keep them producing games.

Well of course it is when the other DRM you prefer is worthless in its stated intention - ie to stop people pirating a game.

Serial activation is only worthless in your opinion. It's effective enough for Matrix and they don't seem to have a problem selling games and remaining financially viable despite their "worthless" DRM.

The other side of the coin of course is that while SES' DRM may be more effective at stopping piracy it also costs them a certain amount of sales and customer good will.

Originally Posted By DBeves (25 FEB 2012 3:25pm)

The point is - as it seems to have sailed right between your ears is that the thread was not about DRM - is was about the game - its the DRM boring, tiresome whiners who turned it a thread about it. Start all the threads you want Titled DRM issues - again ... at least I dont have to sort through all the non comments to find the info on a game. there is in fact I beleive - as you seem to have missed that one as well a forum specifically form DRM posting - so why not take it there so those of us who dont want to have to listen to the same old stuff repeated ad nauseum dont have to read it and the computing game forum is actually left for games? Radical ...

Why do you have to troll and make personal attacks in every response. Is that your usual posting style? Does that win you many arguments or friends? Hopefully it isn't your RL persona.

Anyway, what seems to "have sailed right between your ears" is that by coming into the thread and railing about DRM "whiners" and essentially telling people to STFU, all you do is perpetuate the DRM conversation and draw attention to it. If it bothers you so, much you could try actually talking about the game (of which the DRM is actually part if you didn't realize it) and redirecting the conversation to topics more of your liking.

Well of course it is when the other DRM you prefer is worthless in its stated intention - ie to stop people pirating a game.

Matrix's serial key DRM isnt worthless. Everytime the game is updated all the known pirated serials are blacklisted by the installer. So maybe you can pirate the initial release but if you want any bug fixes or new features the serial key wont work and you'll have to buy the game.

I have noticed that a lot of indie studios make this mistake. I have a major complaint about combat mission battle for normandy for the same reason. However I think it must have something to do with how complicated it is to program?

Anyways this irks me as well so I am with you there.

Not sure I understand the CM comment - moving the camera with the right mouse button is in the game

I like using my mouse like I use it in most other RTS games. Meaning that I use the edges of the screen.

In both Jutland and CMSF\CMBN you must "hit the right spot" for the camera to move the right direction. When it does move the right direction it requires many corrections by moving to a number of other right spots.

I am used to a very quick half a second movement to see what I want to see at the right angle, height and direction. In both of these games not only is the camera movement slow, but if you use the edge of the screen it requires multiple attempts from multiple parts of the side of the screen.

Moving the camera with the right mouse button would mean that I cannot actually move across the map while turning. Well I guess I could if I used the keyboard, but if I do that I lose a lot of accuracy without a lot of practice when the same result can be reached with the camera movement system of the likes of Total War, SOSE, COH and virtually every other RTS I have ever played since 3D maps first became a feature.

Think of it like flying, like a bird moving. The bird does not stop to turn before continuing in a direction. It would be inefficient to do so, slower if you will. You can of course stop to look around from the stationary position, but it is no effort to move while looking around either.

In short I find the camera movment in SES Jutland and CMBN primitive, clunky, slow and unnatural compared to even very old games. It does not stop me playing the game but really detracts from the experience for me. I would not be surprised if proper camera movement is very hard to program and this is why the time was spent on other things.

Sail your ship as part of a fleet. Devs previously worked on: Darthmod, World of Warplanes, World of Tanks, RaceRoom, IL2-Sturmovik, Metro, STALKER and many other great games

Well of course it is when the other DRM you prefer is worthless in its stated intention - ie to stop people pirating a game.

Serial activation is only worthless in your opinion. It's effective enough for Matrix and they don't seem to have a problem selling games and remaining financially viable despite their "worthless" DRM.

The other side of the coin of course is that while SES' DRM may be more effective at stopping piracy it also costs them a certain amount of sales and customer good will.

Originally Posted By DBeves (25 FEB 2012 3:25pm)

The point is - as it seems to have sailed right between your ears is that the thread was not about DRM - is was about the game - its the DRM boring, tiresome whiners who turned it a thread about it. Start all the threads you want Titled DRM issues - again ... at least I dont have to sort through all the non comments to find the info on a game. there is in fact I beleive - as you seem to have missed that one as well a forum specifically form DRM posting - so why not take it there so those of us who dont want to have to listen to the same old stuff repeated ad nauseum dont have to read it and the computing game forum is actually left for games? Radical ...

Why do you have to troll and make personal attacks in every response. Is that your usual posting style? Does that win you many arguments or friends? Hopefully it isn't your RL persona.

Anyway, what seems to "have sailed right between your ears" is that by coming into the thread and railing about DRM "whiners" and essentially telling people to STFU, all you do is perpetuate the DRM conversation and draw attention to it. If it bothers you so, much you could try actually talking about the game (of which the DRM is actually part if you didn't realize it) and redirecting the conversation to topics more of your liking.

LOL - so now its my fault the DRM issues are perpetuated - not the fault of actually those who talk about it at all - your logic is absolutely priceless - and desparate - why dont you instead answer the question ? Why dont you take your DRM crap elsewhere to the proper forum ? Why do you have to pollute gaming threads with DRM rants ? DRM has nothing at all to do with the game itself - at least your bizarre logic is consistent I suppose. I have not made one "personal" attack in the whole thread apart from the last post if you are going to be so sensitive and construe it that way.

So while your bizarre logic insists I am responsible for perpetuating DRM talk - you then call me a troll by being a troll yourself.

Well of course it is when the other DRM you prefer is worthless in its stated intention - ie to stop people pirating a game.

Matrix's serial key DRM isnt worthless. Everytime the game is updated all the known pirated serials are blacklisted by the installer. So maybe you can pirate the initial release but if you want any bug fixes or new features the serial key wont work and you'll have to buy the game.

You have obviously never even so much as looked at a place where games are pirated - or know anything about it. Posting cracks for updates to keep pirated games current is seen by these people as a mark of honour.

So in the case of a small wargame developer like SES then you are essentially saying I dont care if people are stealing your product and you are losing money

Your under the assumption that everyone that pirates a game would have otherwise purchased it. Thats absurd.

You are working under the assumption that EVERYONE who pirates a game would never have purchased it if the DRM wasnt cracked - thats absurd.

In any case the fact people wouldnt have bought the game in any case is one of the most spurious arguments ever presented against DRM. Why should they get something for nothing. the fact the guy who steals my stereo from my car wouldnt have purchased it makes absolutely no difference to me. did it also not occur to you that some of those pirating games that "wouldnt have bought them" dont buy them because they dont have the money ? Irrespective of whether they have the money or not its still stealing.

You have obviously never even so much as looked at a place where games are pirated - or know anything about it. Posting cracks for updates to keep pirated games current is seen by these people as a mark of honour.

In any case the fact people wouldnt have bought the game in any case is one of the most spurious arguments ever presented against DRM. Why should they get something for nothing. the fact the guy who steals my stereo from my car wouldnt have purchased it makes absolutely no difference to me. did it also not occur to you that some of those pirating games that "wouldnt have bought them" dont buy them because they dont have the money ? Irrespective of whether they have the money or not its still stealing.

Your comparing apples and oranges. But you win, Im a retard for actually engaging in this pointless discussion.

I have noticed that a lot of indie studios make this mistake. I have a major complaint about combat mission battle for normandy for the same reason. However I think it must have something to do with how complicated it is to program?

Anyways this irks me as well so I am with you there.

Not sure I understand the CM comment - moving the camera with the right mouse button is in the game

I like using my mouse like I use it in most other RTS games. Meaning that I use the edges of the screen.

In both Jutland and CMSF\CMBN you must "hit the right spot" for the camera to move the right direction. When it does move the right direction it requires many corrections by moving to a number of other right spots.

I am used to a very quick half a second movement to see what I want to see at the right angle, height and direction. In both of these games not only is the camera movement slow, but if you use the edge of the screen it requires multiple attempts from multiple parts of the side of the screen.

Moving the camera with the right mouse button would mean that I cannot actually move across the map while turning. Well I guess I could if I used the keyboard, but if I do that I lose a lot of accuracy without a lot of practice when the same result can be reached with the camera movement system of the likes of Total War, SOSE, COH and virtually every other RTS I have ever played since 3D maps first became a feature.

Think of it like flying, like a bird moving. The bird does not stop to turn before continuing in a direction. It would be inefficient to do so, slower if you will. You can of course stop to look around from the stationary position, but it is no effort to move while looking around either.

In short I find the camera movment in SES Jutland and CMBN primitive, clunky, slow and unnatural compared to even very old games. It does not stop me playing the game but really detracts from the experience for me. I would not be surprised if proper camera movement is very hard to program and this is why the time was spent on other things.

OK I see what you mean - yes - I agree - never use the edge of the screen in CMBN - for precisely the reason you state. Its annoying but as you say doesnt stop me playing. I mostly play WEGO in CMBN now so its not such and issue as its slower paced - not an option in jutland obviously - which I recall was much more annoying in this respect.

You have obviously never even so much as looked at a place where games are pirated - or know anything about it. Posting cracks for updates to keep pirated games current is seen by these people as a mark of honour.

Im curious how youve become such an authority on this?

Oooh ... how clever - how did I fall into your trap .. I am a pirate arguing for DRM ... Jeeeezus .....

In any case the fact people wouldnt have bought the game in any case is one of the most spurious arguments ever presented against DRM. Why should they get something for nothing. the fact the guy who steals my stereo from my car wouldnt have purchased it makes absolutely no difference to me. did it also not occur to you that some of those pirating games that "wouldnt have bought them" dont buy them because they dont have the money ? Irrespective of whether they have the money or not its still stealing.

Your comparing apples and oranges. But you win, Im a retard for actually engaging in this pointless discussion.

Yes its pointless because you are arguing against people protecing their goods from being stolen. Which I agree doesnt make any sense at all.

LOL - so now its my fault the DRM issues are perpetuated - not the fault of actually those who talk about it at all - your logic is absolutely priceless - and desparate - why dont you instead answer the question ? Why dont you take your DRM crap elsewhere to the proper forum ? Why do you have to pollute gaming threads with DRM rants ? DRM has nothing at all to do with the game itself - at least your bizarre logic is consistent I suppose. I have not made one "personal" attack in the whole thread apart from the last post if you are going to be so sensitive and construe it that way.

I didn't raise DRM in this thread at all. I've responded to your tirades agains DRM "whiners". And the DRM that comes with the game with the game has very much to do with the game. If there's a problem with the DRM, you can't play the game at all.

LOL - so now its my fault the DRM issues are perpetuated - not the fault of actually those who talk about it at all - your logic is absolutely priceless - and desparate - why dont you instead answer the question ? Why dont you take your DRM crap elsewhere to the proper forum ? Why do you have to pollute gaming threads with DRM rants ? DRM has nothing at all to do with the game itself - at least your bizarre logic is consistent I suppose. I have not made one "personal" attack in the whole thread apart from the last post if you are going to be so sensitive and construe it that way.

I didn't raise DRM in this thread at all. I've responded to your tirades agains DRM "whiners". And the DRM that comes with the game with the game has very much to do with the game. If there's a problem with the DRM, you can't play the game at all.

Originally Posted By DBeves (25 FEB 2012 4:11pm)

Cant type any more ... for laughing ...

Well some good has come out this exchange then.

Just gets better and better - you deny and then confirm raising DRM in the thread in the same sentence LOL ... Of course if there is a problem with the DRM you cant play the game ... it wouldnt be much of a DRM system if that wasnt true - if matrix send you the wrong serial - you cant play the game.

DRM whiners enter a thread they know is discussing a game they havent bought by definition due to the DRm - they only enter the thread to moan about it - not to contribute anything to either the original question or the discussion.

As a frequent user of this board I am sick of it. And still wonder why you can just post it in the forum that was set up for it explicitly to cater for your need to rant about it.