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Why does this thread exist? Why are people always so triggered? Pogo is insane. Accept it. He's not going to stop. He can't be stopped unless people stop paying attention to him. I want people to stop paying attention to him so that he can secretly develop some sort of space weapon. I don't care what he has to say about Manson. They were in a band together. Band members have falling outs all of the time. But I really fucking want Pogo to develop a space weapon. So PLEASE stop paying attention to his remarks. He needs privacy, time and space...to create...a space weapon.

Who wants to work with someone that's non stop talking shit, always trying to sue and claiming rape on the people they have worked with? Even if they had talent they made a bad name for themselves in the business. I wouldn't want to deal with them.

I still don't understand what Pogo's musical contributions to Marilyn Manson are supposed to have been.

That's not because he shit-talks Manson. I don't like Manson; as an individual he's a shit-tier human being. But there's simply nothing in the Manson discography that Pogo was involved with that causes me to think he was in any way exceptional as an instrumentalist. His most memorable moments as a keyboardist- the opening lines of "Great Big White World", "Last Day On Earth", "Coma White", a few of the tracks from the middle of Holy Wood - are simple enough that any half-assed industrial keyboardist could have written them. I think Manson the band would have best been served had Pogo quit or been fired right after Holy Wood and the band had hired someone more proficient on the instrument.

Or, so the argument goes, he was responsible for most of the 'esoteric' elements on Antichrist Superstar and Holy Wood. But I've never taken this to be some great accomplishment, either. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination or creative faculty to stick your band mates on a deck of Tarot cards in the liner notes, or to come up with some [frankly nonsensical] Kabbalah-based numerology. Fucking Madonna was doing that shit back in the nineties.

That's not to say I don't enjoy those elements, but they're nothing but flavoring. Totally irrelevant to the music.

On the whole, I've always been disappointed in the electronic section of Marilyn Manson, no matter if the instrumentalist was Pogo or Vrenna or whoever. Hell, I find myself enjoying Tyler's contributions in this respect ["Blood Honey", "Saturnalia"] more than any of them, and he's not even a full-time keyist. There's absolutely nothing in the discography, with Pogo or without, that's remotely comparable in terms of technical proficiency with electronics to, I dunno....

I always thought Pogo's contributions lay in the development of the sounds used, rather than what he was actually playing. There's a lot going on in those records in regards to sounds, loops, samples etc that isn't... normal. Sure, what he's playing may be first-piano-lesson kind of skill, but it was the sounds he was playing them with - often made from scratch or heavily manipulated - that was his supposed genius. There's all sorts of layers and strange frequency combinations in there based on his understanding of weird mathematics and esoteric writings.

Is that the same cemetery where Pogo's career lies dead and buried? Pogo should really just be thankful that, for a few years, he didn't have to bum around like he otherwise would have kept doing had it not been for Manson. It wasn't like Pogo was hired for his skills as a musician.

There's scarce point debating the significance of Bier's contribution to Marilyn Manson. We know he was one of five people who wrote with the band between 1989-2006, and that much like everyone who played in that band before Ginger Fish was hired, he did so by learning from scratch and writing in much the same way.
If he wants to shit on Holy Wood, whatever. It's the most intentionally complex album Manson's ever written, and 'M.W. Gacy' has a credit on eighteen of its nineteen songs. If he doesn't like the album, then I guess he can finally hold himself accountable for something...

All that aside, many people have severed ties with Manson over the years, and vice-versa. Some incidents were amicable, others not. Tellingly, besides a few curt words, only a handful opted to criticise Manson afterwards, and despite his occasionally caustic approach, he's only reciprocated on a few specific occasions. I think also, after nearly three decades, he's made it fairly transparent what sort of ship he runs and who the captain is.
With ALL that in mind, it becomes easier to see who the fuck-up is in this scenario. If Bier has to dredge up the opinions of someone from Jack Off Jill or Scott Putesky in an attempt to legitimise his bile towards Manson, then no reading between the lines is required. If those text messages are from Manson personally, then Bier is no better than a talk show guest, a sensationalist prick who isn't able to see the forest for the trees, or indeed, smell his own shit on his knees.

Whether Manson intended to reach out for artistic purposes at a point in his life where he's clearly feeling nostalgic and reinvigorated, or if he just wanted to speak to Bier privately and perhaps let some sleeping dogs lie, I guarantee Bier has now irrevocably pissed this against the wall. From a fan who actually valued his contributions, and yeah, occasionally held out hope they would be able to do something together one day, this just cements my opinion of Bier as a sad, hopeless little scab.