Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Pianomuse,you might want to consider Shenandoah University,formerly Shenandoah College and Conservatory of Music,Oberlin,or Bowling Green.Of the three Shenandoah might be the toughest to get into.I did my undergrad studies there.It was very much geared to performance,and very competetive,but worth it.

Part of the answer comes from what do you want to do?? If you are only thinking music, that's one thing, but are you thinking of a backup strategy if you don't become an NBA superstar?

Even in music, are you thinking pedagogy or performance? Got to be pretty specific. I'd feel better if you said you were pursuing a dual major of accounting and music or even english and music.

Again, talk to people who are living the life you are dreaming of and speak with them...but to do that, you need to know yourself and be able to articulate that. Read "What Color is Your Parachute" for good ideas.

If you're planning on being the next Brendel or Horowitz...be prepared for disappointment...

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

You know Jon Nakamutsu (winner of the Van Cliburn eight years ago), dutiful son of cautious Japanese parents, did not attend a Conservatory. In fact, he got his college degree in language teaching, and only after THAT - and I mean, not only after college, but after a hard day in and out of the classroom, he went on to practice.

He was sure he didn't have a chance in the van Cliburn, against all the Conservatory graduates, including those from overseas, like Russia, who had been groomed and coddled from an early age just for piano careers. Kind of like they do the Olympics.

He did win! We heard him a few years ago and he was unbelieveable.

That doesn't mean it's the norm. But the norm, unfortunately, is the wild, expensive gamble, lots of hard work to graduate from a Conservatory, and then...teaching piano or working in a Jr. High Music Department, struggling to "carve out" time for practicing as my son's piano teacher says (he's a university piano prof).

IPersonally, I advocate for a liberal arts education with a good music program and a really good piano teacher- to be carefully identified and (good point!) contacted in advance of the application procedure.

It's not that I don't approve of dreaming - my father was a successful professional (visual)artist,and my mother also did some portraiture, but they were Fine Arts majors at a top university too.

Well, I guess it's the financial angle for me when it comes down to it. If that's not a problem, either in paying for it or surviving afterwards, then a Conservatory is just dandy.

Ariel

_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln~

Ariel,again Shenandoah,a top music school with a lot of financial aid to students.I did it,I also had to work while at school,but came away with two degrees.I knew I did'nt want to perform professionally for the rest of my life,not in my temperament,but I have been teaching for 15 years,and will have my tuning business full-time after I retire.It can be done.

The tuition isn't really that bad after scholarhips and government federal aid. It can decrease a great deal. The average tuition at these music schools are about $20,000, so it isn't rare to be able to recieve a good scholarship, covering half or more of the price.

Originally posted by CrashTest:The average tuition at these music schools are about $20,000, so it isn't rare to be able to recieve a good scholarship, covering half or more of the price.[/b]

That's not true. Scholarships for undergrads are very hard to come by at most schools, making unwitting 18 year-olds decide if they should take out a $15,000 loan or not. Most schools now give out only one full scholarship per department per year. Oberlin offered me $4,000 out of $32,000. Thankfully, CCM could give me in-state tuition and I ended up paying only $6,000 for my whole undergrad education.

What we're seeing is more and more people making bad financial decisions in their youth and declaring bankruptcy as soon as they get out of college.

Originally posted by PianoMuse:I REALLY love teaching, so I have a feeling I am going to end up teaching private lessons.

The thing is, I want to be teaching them on a fairly high level...perhaps even at a college one day.

So I am looking for a good teacher, and a school with good performance opportinuties. I will probably be going in as performance ( though that's not what I want to do in life).[/b]

if you really want to teach at a high level, whether in college or privately, i would recommend that, after you get your BM in performance, you get an MM in piano pedagogy.

i have studied with some well known teachers who studied with very famous pianists. most of these teachers were focused on performance in their own careers.

the teacher i have now is the very best piano teacher i have ever had. she is not famous. she did not study with anyone famous, so far as i know. she has a performance career in addition to her teaching, and is a wonderful pianist, with impeccable taste and musicianship, but she is still a small-town girl, who went to a non-illustrious music school, and who teaches privately in a small town. she has taught also at the university level.

what makes her such a special teacher who can outshine teachers who studied at the moscow conservatory and with sviatoslav richter?

i'm convinced it is because she focused on piano pedagogy in her studies, and has an honest fascination with the process of how students learn. most performers do not have that interest, and it shows in their less than wonderful teaching.

while my teacher may not have a recognizable name as a pianist, she is very well known in the pedagogy world, and is a regional leader in the field. many of her adult students are piano teachers--she teaches them how to teach. teaching is itself its own art, and you won't learn it by studying performance.

A friend of mine got into the U. of Michigan's music school as an undergraduate piano major [Ann Arbor], but soon realized she didn't want that. She changed her major a couple of times - no problem if you're at a major university - graduated with honors, and went to law school at Emory in Atlanta, which she loved.

I can recommend the U. of Michigan most strongly. The Music School is very beautiful, and the university is rated one of the best. Whoever visits Ann Arbor will want to attend there! Out-of-staters will need good grades, though I wonder if music majors might have a special application procedure.

Another friend began piano at age three and got into Juillard after completing high school. She graduated as a virtuoso, then studied with Leon Fleisher at Peabody. At age 30 she'd had enough: she was teaching children privately from 3 until 10 pm, which forbade much of a social life, and her career wasn't moving. She moved back to her home town and lived with her parents while studying computer science. After a few years she had a BS and MS in that field and got a job. She of course still played piano... for herself and in public as a member of a trio, and had the occasional student (me! She was a fabulous, fabulous teacher!).

QUESTION: Does Juilliard have any age requirement? If not, the initiator of this thread might also consider delaying application until his/her twenties (or even later), say, when the appropriate level for strong consideration has been achieved.

Yes, Brendan! That's what I was saying about the overall cost, and no, CrashTest, that sounds like wild fantasy (your figuring of the cost and chances of substantial aid).

After all, Crash, you only cite 20K per annum for tuition! a) that's about 2K less annually than it really is for the next academic year b) it will go up every year, well beyond the inflation index, like all schools of higher ed and c) it doesn't include room and board, and associated expenses - INCLUDING LESSONS! Thus bringing the grand total with travel allowance and so on, to well over 35K just to start.

That's without even figuring in lessons, music and texts, and a personal practice piano which is likely to be needed. (Plus there's probably a piano at home to keep in tune!).

Which makes the average Conservatory education more expensive than an Ivy League School, with much less financial aid available and much less wherewithall (probably) to repay big loans after graduation, with a B.M. in Piano!! If[/b] you're lucky enough to qualify for subsidized loans, that is.

And thank you very much, curry and "Love the Late..." for your practical and supportive remarks. I do hear you, curry, that there are other musical[/b] options, and I sure give you credit for your stamina and dedication in reaching your goals!!

I still think this must[/b] be a rich person's Forum, if a Conservatory education is something everyone! Well, what do you expect - piano playing is[/b] still an elite pursuit.

I have spent over $200 on music and Theory books for my son so far this year. Lessons are costing us $100/wk. And I still haven't gotten him a grand (the pursuit of which brought me to the Forum). Luckily, he's able to study AP Music Theory at our local High School this year - a grueling but very worthwhile (free) course...

Many sympathies "Love the Late..." for your instrument dilemma, especially with the divorce. My son's dad and I are no longer married, and it makes his practicing really hard - not to mention the motivation, as his father doesn't support his Music, emotionally or financially

_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee. ~Abraham Lincoln~

Another thing a professor of mine told me that I thought was really enlightening:

A good teacher is a good teacher no matter what institution they teach at. The difference is that at a modest music school, you might get your professors and a couple hundred people at your senior recital from the connections your teacher has. At Julliard, you'll get that, and the New York Times, and booking agents of the prestigious venues around town all because of your teacher's connections. Who they know is extremely important.

that is true. i went to grad school at columbia university for precisely that reason. but that still don't pay the bills if you are in a profession that is saturated with talented people.

anyone who is thinking of making a career in music had better very carefully calculated their odds for success. to be talented is NOT enough. certainly connections are at least as important, as are tremendous drive and ego. but also, you have to have something extra. and so few have it.

unless you are extraordinary, don't expect to make much of a living from it. and if you were extraordinary you would probably know by now. it's fine to pursue a dream--i believe in that--but realistic self-assessment is also critical.

the salesman who sold me my piano was a recent graduate of julliard. so was the salesgirl at the shop across the street, who nearly sold me a piano. both are brilliant, brilliant pianists. the guy who sold me my piano is a raging talent.

he is barely scraping by, trying to get concert dates in the city. he deserves to succeed. he is creating web sites to put food on the table. i'm sure he is deeply in debt, even if he had a full scholarship. living in nyc is outrageously expensive.

it is a very tough route to take. personally, i'm not sure i'd have the stomach for it even if i had the talent, though i would be tempted to try. for those who don't have stellar talent, i think it is folly, unless you are a dreamer with money to burn.

I don't know if this is changing the topic too much or not but it sounded like it belonged in this thread. I want to teach college as well, probably piano or theory or history or something like that. But I want to be a Piano Performance major because I see that as the best way to get better rather then if I was a Music History or theory major which I'm guessing would focus more on book work then performance. And I was just wondering if it was a stupid idea to get a perfomance degree if I can't do anything with it besides perform (which I understand is not the best way to go). And I would rather not go into private teaching, maybe on the side but not as my main job. I'm guessing that because I want to teach at a college I need my Docterate which I am more then happy and excited to get because I love learning as much as possible. But anyways if anyone had any suggestions on what route I should look into I'de be very appreciative...!

Originally posted by pique:anyone who is thinking of making a career in music had better very carefully calculated their odds for success. to be talented is NOT enough. certainly connections are at least as important, as are tremendous drive and ego. but also, you have to have something extra. and so few have it.

unless you are extraordinary, don't expect to make much of a living from it. and if you were extraordinary you would probably know by now. it's fine to pursue a dream--i believe in that--but realistic self-assessment is also critical.

[/b]

Very good point Pique, it's something my father explained to me when I was younger and although I studied piano for many years, I ended up moving into the world of IT for precisely what you explain. My father was, for perhaps 40 years, at the top of the UK session world for what concerns piano and did very well out of it. He was in the right place at the right time with the right people. The fact that he was a bl**dy good pianist also helped

I knew that to make a decent living, I had to be one of the best or I would starve (exaggerating, but you get the idea). I also knew that IT was up and coming and there were not enough people to fill the gaps being created. It was a place where even if you weren't the best, you could get by.

Fortunately, it worked out very well for me so now I can indulge in both worlds quite happily If I really wanted to give a concert or recital once in a while, I could pay for a hall for an evening, rent a decent piano, market the event and offer free admission ...

All this just to re-enforce Pique's point of weighing up the risks of the music business. Talent really is just a part of the equation when it comes down to it.

I know several people who did performance degrees for their bachelors, then did graduate work in theory or musicology. It's not unusual.

Quote:

Originally posted by ThEmUsIcMaNBJ:I don't know if this is changing the topic too much or not but it sounded like it belonged in this thread. I want to teach college as well, probably piano or theory or history or something like that. But I want to be a Piano Performance major because I see that as the best way to get better rather then if I was a Music History or theory major which I'm guessing would focus more on book work then performance. And I was just wondering if it was a stupid idea to get a perfomance degree if I can't do anything with it besides perform (which I understand is not the best way to go). And I would rather not go into private teaching, maybe on the side but not as my main job. I'm guessing that because I want to teach at a college I need my Docterate which I am more then happy and excited to get because I love learning as much as possible. But anyways if anyone had any suggestions on what route I should look into I'de be very appreciative...![/b]

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Originally posted by pique:unless you are extraordinary, don't expect to make much of a living from it. and if you were extraordinary you would probably know by now. it's fine to pursue a dream--i believe in that--but realistic self-assessment is also critical.

...

it is a very tough route to take. personally, i'm not sure i'd have the stomach for it even if i had the talent, though i would be tempted to try. for those who don't have stellar talent, i think it is folly, unless you are a dreamer with money to burn.[/b]

I can see how that can be true in New York, where the cost of living is outrageous and there are more good pianists than you can count, but from my experience it's not true for all places.

I've never had difficulty supporting myself (even while in school). There are so many opportunities at all levels - it's not hard to find a church job, it's not hard to find students, and if you play well, the phone will ring. I've done everything from the seediest gigs to playing with orchestras and I can say that your reputation will speak for itself. I don't live like a king, but I have a nice apartment and make more than enough to pay my bills and get by.

Competitions are overrated. I made more money this year from gigs than from all of the competition winnings in my whole life. Hell, when I enter a competition now I only really care about performing. When Van Cliburn won the Tchaikovsky, there were less than 50 international piano competitions. Now, there are almost 2,000 with only 6 that really matter. What does that say about winning one?

To reiterate: if you play well and work for a variety of people, the phone will ring. For the people who stay in practice rooms 10 hours a day trying hit it big in the Van Cliburn, the presumption that music is a financially insecure career becomes a reality.

thanks for providing another perspective, brendan. i was of course addressing the ambitions of the originator of the thread, who dreams of going to julliard, which is in new york. and also responding to the person who talked about the importance of connections as a reason for going to a place like julliard. you only need those kinds of connections if you are seeking a concert career.

i am heartened to hear that you are able to live comfortably playing the piano professionally in cincinnati. i live a very small town, and while we have lots of good pianists here, it is nice to think that if i ever developed my talent enough, i might be able to have a career of some sort in music after all. i think the key is to have realistic ambitions, rather than dreaming of being the next rubinstein.

The University of Houston does have a good music school. The head of the keyboard department, Nancy Weems, was my very first piano teacher. She won the International Bach Competition and was also nominated for a Grammy in the past. She is a wonderful teacher. In fact, my parents bumped into someone whose son is studying piano at UH and is really enjoying himself!

(end shameless plug)

_________________________
"I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who said, `I drank what?'"

Again, this thread is fascinating. A few more morsels that might be of interest...

The initiator of the thread might want to read a book chronicling the Van Cliburn competition (1985 I believe), which actually examines the whole competition thing in detail. There is a *lot* on what a pianist's life at Juilliard is like - approximately, it's usually all day and evening in the practice room, with a few minutes out for meals. Reading this book made me NOT want to attend Juilliard, ever! [To find the book, search on piano competitions.]

A newspaper article some years ago mentioned how many aspiring NY pianists studied with TWO teachers simultaneously - one to improve at the instrument, the other solely for his connections - and of course neither knew about the other teacher. As many posters have pointed out, concertizing is a really political business.

Janina Fialkowski in an interview mentioned that as she was entering the Rubinstein competition, she had already applied to law school and thought she would be going. Fortune smiled on her: Rubinstein himself heard her, was entranced by her playing, and smoothed her way to a successful career (Janina mentioned that AR would insist on inserting a clause in his contracts, that Janina be given a concert by the promoters too). She made it, but how many enjoy such patronage?

Making a living in music seems quite realistic, at least near a big city. A friend with a Masters in piano gets $20 - 25/half hour teaching kids, which she does two days a week, and devotes the rest of her time to another artistic interest. A pianist I know with a Bachelors from U. of CA/Berkeley works in business all day, then teaches from 5 - 8 at the local piano store. He told me he makes around $20 grand per year just from his parttime piano teaching, which nets him $17/half hour using the pianos in the store and their connections to get students.

BUT........ sometimes you gotta go for your dreams!!! Alfred Brendel stated that he didn't decide to be a pianist until he was 17 or 18. Until then he had dabbled in several of the arts. If you feel that you have something special to say musically, and are very determined, I see no reason why your current level of playing as you described it, and being age 15, should deter you from giving it a shot. If that's what you want to do, bearing in mind all the caveats from our wise, experienced fellow posters.

One thing that was mentioned again and again in reading many interviews with the concert pianists who had 'made it', was: it's not about being a mechanicus with fabulous fingers. Ashkenazy, for example, says this is the typical Russian pianist (c. 1980), and he says nearly all of them are really dull: They don't have much to say.

What it *IS* about, they say, is being able to breathe life into the score, and having the technique to do it; technique being (they say) the ability to make many varied sounds come from the piano, whose native sound is not very interesting, actually [Yep, that's what they say!] For instance, having the ability to play the melody like an oboe or a violin or a singer, rather than with just the sound of a piano. [Technique of course consists of many other things too, like phrasing and so forth.] The interviewees all decried those who focused on rapidity and playing every note correctly... "So what! That's not the point at all, is it!"

Originally posted by pianodevo:Making a living in music seems quite realistic, at least near a big city. A pianist I know with a Bachelors from U. of CA/Berkeley works in business all day, then teaches from 5 - 8 at the local piano store. He told me he makes around $20 grand per year just from his parttime piano teaching, which nets him $17/half hour using the pianos in the store and their connections to get students. [/b]

That still means he has to work an average of 12 extra hours per week - every week - to earn that extra $20,000.00 per year. Given what taxes take out of it, and given what amounts to a lot of extra time after a full-time job, I wouldn't necessarily agree with you that this way of doing it is making much of a quality addition to his living.

This is very true. I made the mistake of playing well on a few gigs last year, and I've been playing an average of a concert every 10 days since January 1. (And could have done more had I not turned people down.)

The worst was two weeks ago. Played with a violist on Tuesday, a violinist on Thursday, travelled on Friday for a solo recital over the weekend, then back home and played a recital with a trio the following Wednesday.

I used to wish my phone would ring. Now I just want it to shut up!

Quote:

Originally posted by Brendan:To reiterate: if you play well and work for a variety of people, the phone will ring. For the people who stay in practice rooms 10 hours a day trying hit it big in the Van Cliburn, the presumption that music is a financially insecure career becomes a reality.[/b]

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Originally posted by Kreisler:This is very true. I made the mistake of playing well on a few gigs last year, and I've been playing an average of a concert every 10 days since January 1. (And could have done more had I not turned people down.)[/b]

Yeah...but isn't it great how you can play the gigs that you want to instead of playing something because you need the $$$ (spousal obligations notwithstanding)? I got to play on some great concerts this year because I didn't say yes to everything.

Thought all who posted on this thread might enjoy seeing what Rosalyn Tureck played for her Juillard entrance exam. By chance, happened to see this last night. Of course, it was long long ago, probably in the 1930s or 1940s. [She became a famous Bach specialist.]

She played a Bach Prelude and Fugue from the WTC, Beethoven Sonata op. 2 # 2, Chopin Ballade in G minor, and Liszt's La Campanella. The book said the committee only asked her to play portions of the latter three.