It maybe difficult for us to reason why any government or any gov official would want an artist dead but I'm sure they have their own anal retentive reasons. Think about it, why would the US government want John Lennon dead, he could be considered a small fry but he was the subject of a massive smear campaign before he was murdered, why and by whom? and there's a strong probability that Mark Chapman was the subject of a MK Ultra style brainwashing. Makes me think about the possibility of FZ being bumped off, just a little anyway.

Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 12:41 pmPosts: 14036Location: From some place in this area...

HJ wrote:

Mr_Green_Genes wrote:

HJ wrote:

I feel sorry for people who goes through life worrying about 0.00000000000000001 probability events. I think treating such events as probability zero events will make you live longer.

You mean like the origin of Life, or the evolution of the genetic code? Those are almost 0 probabilities, but look around you.

No. I was more thinking about events that mainly, if not exclusively, arise from vivid imagination. I look around and, what am I supposed to watch out for?

There is life everywhere, but many leading scientists do agree that the odds of the origins of life in a abiogenetic scenario is close to 0.00000000000000001 to 1. The genetic code is 1 in a million also. So improbable does not mean impossible. Rare, low-odd events do occur, even if in a low frequency. That is my point. Just because an event may arise mainly because of vivid imagination, doesn't mean it is doomed to be completely false.

But we are not speaking of a so alien possibility here (i.e. Frank being targeted for elimination). Rumor man has showed it properly with his Lennon example.

_________________The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true Art and Science. - Albert Einstein

I feel sorry for people who goes through life worrying about 0.00000000000000001 probability events. I think treating such events as probability zero events will make you live longer.

You mean like the origin of Life, or the evolution of the genetic code? Those are almost 0 probabilities, but look around you.

No. I was more thinking about events that mainly, if not exclusively, arise from vivid imagination. I look around and, what am I supposed to watch out for?

There is life everywhere, but many leading scientists do agree that the odds of the origins of life in a abiogenetic scenario is close to 0.00000000000000001 to 1. The genetic code is 1 in a million also. So improbable does not mean impossible. Rare, low-odd events do occur, even if in a low frequency. That is my point. Just because an event may arise mainly because of vivid imagination, doesn't mean it is doomed to be completely false.

But we are not speaking of a so alien possibility here (i.e. Frank being targeted for elimination). Rumor man has showed it properly with his Lennon example.

I understand probability theory and know the important difference between a probability close to zero and one exactly at zero. The latter excludes the event from ever happening. My point is that things are so speculative that I assign them a subjective probability very close to one. For all pratical purposes that means that I don't worry about them; i.e., I treat them as true zero probability events. Otherwise I end up worrying about too many stupid improbable (albeit not impossible) things.

Notice the term "subjective probability". By construction, any probability attached to the event that Zappa was murdered is subjective. Nobody can perform controlled experiments where a sufficiently large number of identical Frank Zappa's are born and die, and where one checks the murder rate in the population of Frank Zappas to calculate an objective murder probability. So my assesment is no more "alien" than yours.

And my infinitesimal subjective probability estimate concerning this event is not affected by adding more speculation to the thread (rumorman's Lennon thing). One more piece og speculation hardly makes another more probable. Unless, of course, one can provide some connecting evidence. And what about Janis Joplin? I mean, was she also murdered? Was Paul McCartney? Is he Paul McCartney? Was Hendrix, Cobain, Heath Ledger murdered? Did JFK actually commit suicide? Not impossible, but what has this to do with this thread, which was nothing but a speculation-based question in the first place?

I feel sorry for people who goes through life worrying about 0.00000000000000001 probability events. I think treating such events as probability zero events will make you live longer.

You mean like the origin of Life, or the evolution of the genetic code? Those are almost 0 probabilities, but look around you.

No. I was more thinking about events that mainly, if not exclusively, arise from vivid imagination. I look around and, what am I supposed to watch out for?

There is life everywhere, but many leading scientists do agree that the odds of the origins of life in a abiogenetic scenario is close to 0.00000000000000001 to 1. The genetic code is 1 in a million also. So improbable does not mean impossible. Rare, low-odd events do occur, even if in a low frequency. That is my point. Just because an event may arise mainly because of vivid imagination, doesn't mean it is doomed to be completely false.

But we are not speaking of a so alien possibility here (i.e. Frank being targeted for elimination). Rumor man has showed it properly with his Lennon example.

I understand probability theory and know the important difference between a probability close to zero and one exactly at zero. The latter excludes the event from ever happening. My point is that things are so speculative that I assign them a subjective probability very close to one. For all pratical purposes that means that I don't worry about them; i.e., I treat them as true zero probability events. Otherwise I end up worrying about too many stupid improbable (albeit not impossible) things.

Notice the term "subjective probability". By construction, any probability attached to the event that Zappa was murdered is subjective. Nobody can perform controlled experiments where a sufficiently large number of identical Frank Zappa's are born and die, and where one checks the murder rate in the population of Frank Zappas to calculate an objective murder probability. So my assesment is no more "alien" than yours.

And my infinitesimal subjective probability estimate concerning this event is not affected by adding more speculation to the thread (rumorman's Lennon thing). One more piece og speculation hardly makes another more probable. Unless, of course, one can provide some connecting evidence. And what about Janis Joplin? I mean, was she also murdered? Was Paul McCartney? Is he Paul McCartney? Was Hendrix, Cobain, Heath Ledger murdered? Did JFK actually commit suicide? Not impossible, but what has this to do with this thread, which was nothing but a speculation-based question in the first place?

Wow, you're certainly good at stating the obvious. The rest of that is codswallop.

You may as well give it up, HJ.
Mr.GG and Rumour Man are obviously government flunkies, paid to create doubt and distrust on the internet blogs and forums. Governments do that all the time. I'm surprised you haven't realised it yourself, yet. The evidence is all there, where everyone can see it.
You watch...their next step will be to deny it, and say it's not true, or outright crazy, but that's just what a government infiltrator would say.

_________________You're probably wondering why I'm here(not that it makes a heck of a lot of a difference to ya)

I understand probability theory and know the important difference between a probability close to zero and one exactly at zero. The latter excludes the event from ever happening. My point is that things are so speculative that I assign them a subjective probability very close to one. For all pratical purposes that means that I don't worry about them; i.e., I treat them as true zero probability events. Otherwise I end up worrying about too many stupid improbable (albeit not impossible) things.

Notice the term "subjective probability". By construction, any probability attached to the event that Zappa was murdered is subjective. Nobody can perform controlled experiments where a sufficiently large number of identical Frank Zappa's are born and die, and where one checks the murder rate in the population of Frank Zappas to calculate an objective murder probability. So my assesment is no more "alien" than yours.

And my infinitesimal subjective probability estimate concerning this event is not affected by adding more speculation to the thread (rumorman's Lennon thing). One more piece og speculation hardly makes another more probable. Unless, of course, one can provide some connecting evidence. And what about Janis Joplin? I mean, was she also murdered? Was Paul McCartney? Is he Paul McCartney? Was Hendrix, Cobain, Heath Ledger murdered? Did JFK actually commit suicide? Not impossible, but what has this to do with this thread, which was nothing but a speculation-based question in the first place?

Wow, you're certainly good at stating the obvious. The rest of that is codswallop.

Thanks. I just felt I needed to expand a bit, as it seemed to me that not all found it so obvious. Codswallop? That I'll have to look up.

EDIT: Done. "Nonsense". Which part? The probability theory, or the fact that you starting another wild conspiracy theory does not automatically increase the credibility of another? Or some other thing? Well never mind, as long as it is all obvious to you, then I don't care.

It was a vast conspiracy you see! I worked for the U.S. government. She had written in her diary "I don't like the president" which, in retrospect, was referring to her class president. However, we decided she was much too much of a threat to national security, so fifteen of us kidnapped her and we threw her off a bridge. Then we made it look like she had been murdered in a completely different way that, though hard to detect, could be easily figured out by people online quoting inappropriate data, ridiculous statistics, and just refusing to believe that there was no conspiracy! Yeah, they figured us out but it's okay: they're next!

_________________Centerville...it's a real nice place to raise yer kids up!

It may seem paranoid until you remember the small pox infected blankets that were distributed to Native Americans as a way to get rid of them.
And the plague infected bodies that were catapulted into enemy territories.
These were clumsy yet effective. Today they can be more specific as in targeting a particular gene. Not a green one, though.

Chemical and biological warfare (or CBW in military shorthand) is a very modern preoccupation. Yet these dangers are far from recent developments. Warfare involving chemical and biological agents can actually be traced back to ancient civilizations that also experimented with the use of toxins, chemicals, and germ warfare.
[image]

Classical folklorist Adrienne Mayor describes the ancient world's involvement and interest in nontraditional warfare tactics in Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Chemical Warfare in the Ancient World (New York: The Overlook Press, 2003; $27.95). Drawing upon ancient Greek, Roman, Chinese, Hindu, and Islamic texts, Mayor documents the long history of battlefield deployment of CBW and the moral dilemma military leaders experienced over the ethics of using such weapons. She notes that the ancients usually avoided the use of unconventional warfare "out of respect for the traditional rules of war." But despite this taboo, some military leaders condoned the use of arrowheads and darts poisoned with different plant and animal toxins. In fact, contaminating enemy food and water supplies, catapulting plague-ridden bodies into enemy fortresses, and improving existing weapons with chemical compounds (mainly petroleum, sulphur, and arsenic) are all documented as various tactics employed by mankind over the course of history. Even living creatures were used as weapons--beehives and wasps' nests were hurled at the enemy, along with baskets full of venomous scorpions.

It's worth noting that the ancients also experimented with defense against biological weapons. One of my favorite references in Greek Fire deals with King Mithridates VI of Pontus. Mithridates, a "ruler obsessed with a phobia of assassination by poison," tried to create a universal antidote that would counteract all poisons known to man. The king ingested a minute amount of different toxins to build tolerance to the poisons and eventually created a complex compound--methridatium--of 54 toxins that he took regularly. Methridatium was improved upon and served to future royals who feared assassination.

The use of CBW agents on the battlefield continues to pose an ethical dilemma for modern military and political leaders. Despite recent revelations about former Soviet weapons programs and the Aum Shinrikyo Sarin attack in Tokyo, most modern leaders thankfully still follow in the tradition of Cicero, who held that "obeying rules of war and refraining from cruelty was what set men apart from beasts."

Anjali Bhattacharjee is a research associate at the Chemical and Biological Weapons Nonproliferation Program Center at the Monterey Institute of International Studies

Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 12:41 pmPosts: 14036Location: From some place in this area...

Perverted fantasy moment:

If I was a powerful extremist right wing conservative, with access to the underground sewers of the industrial-military intelligence community, plotting to take over "America" I would worry with this Zappa guy, growing in his capacity to market his own music, and using his records to disseminate somehow anarchic values and keen criticism of governments and politicians... He could start public campaigns against the cultural values to be crammed down the public's throat and eventually expand his ideals abroad, he could even run for office one day. Best just to deal with him. Two drops of this into his coffe will suffice...

Even though real world thinking points to an interaction of genetic factors with Frank's lifestyle (environmental factors, since a typical stuido tan doesn't help. Vitamin D can play a crucial factor in prostate cancer) as a reason for his deadly disease, I can't help but speculate about the remote possibility Mr. Zappa was another secretive hit by the establishment. Like it is said they did with Chavez....

_________________The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true Art and Science. - Albert Einstein

If I was a powerful extremist right wing conservative, with access to the underground sewers of the industrial-military intelligence community, plotting to take over "America" I would worry with this Zappa guy, growing in his capacity to market his own music, and using his records to disseminate somehow anarchic values and keen criticism of governments and politicians... He could start public campaigns against the cultural values to be crammed down the public's throat and eventually expand his ideals abroad, he could even run for office one day. Best just to deal with him. Two drops of this into his coffe will suffice...

Even though real world thinking points to an interaction of genetic factors with Frank's lifestyle (environmental factors, since a typical stuido tan doesn't help. Vitamin D can play a crucial factor in prostate cancer) as a reason for his deadly disease, I can't help but speculate about the remote possibility Mr. Zappa was another secretive hit by the establishment. Like it is said they did with Chavez....

perverted fantasy moment:

If I was a powerful Left Wing Progressive with access to the underground sewers of the industrial-military intelligence community, plotting to take over "America" I would worry with this Zappa guy, growing in his capacity to market his own music, and using his records to disseminate somehow anarchic values and keen criticism of governments and politicians... He could start public campaigns against the cultural values to be crammed down the public's throat and eventually expand his ideals abroad, he could even run for office one day. Best just to deal with him. Two drops of this into his coffe will suffice...

Even though real world thinking points to an interaction of genetic factors with Frank's lifestyle (environmental factors, since a typical stuido tan doesn't help. Vitamin D can play a crucial factor in prostate cancer) as a reason for his deadly disease, I can't help but speculate about the remote possibility Mr. Zappa was another secretive hit by the establishment. Like it is said they did with Chavez....

If I was a powerful extremist right wing conservative, with access to the underground sewers of the industrial-military intelligence community, plotting to take over "America" I would worry with this Zappa guy, growing in his capacity to market his own music, and using his records to disseminate somehow anarchic values and keen criticism of governments and politicians... He could start public campaigns against the cultural values to be crammed down the public's throat and eventually expand his ideals abroad, he could even run for office one day. Best just to deal with him. Two drops of this into his coffe will suffice...

Even though real world thinking points to an interaction of genetic factors with Frank's lifestyle (environmental factors, since a typical stuido tan doesn't help. Vitamin D can play a crucial factor in prostate cancer) as a reason for his deadly disease, I can't help but speculate about the remote possibility Mr. Zappa was another secretive hit by the establishment. Like it is said they did with Chavez....

perverted fantasy moment:

If I was a powerful Left Wing Progressive with access to the underground sewers of the industrial-military intelligence community, plotting to take over "America" I would worry with this Zappa guy, growing in his capacity to market his own music, and using his records to disseminate somehow anarchic values and keen criticism of governments and politicians... He could start public campaigns against the cultural values to be crammed down the public's throat and eventually expand his ideals abroad, he could even run for office one day. Best just to deal with him. Two drops of this into his coffe will suffice...

Even though real world thinking points to an interaction of genetic factors with Frank's lifestyle (environmental factors, since a typical stuido tan doesn't help. Vitamin D can play a crucial factor in prostate cancer) as a reason for his deadly disease, I can't help but speculate about the remote possibility Mr. Zappa was another secretive hit by the establishment. Like it is said they did with Chavez....

Well, if you take the facts that:

He wasn't that popular (there are hugely more successful bands doing anti-goverment music - none I know of have been "killed") He was doing political stuff years before he died and if it made any difference it was vastly miniscule His political views weren't all that radical (I would think "they" would have killed Jello Biafra way before they would have Frank)

Other than that, sure, maybe you could shoehorn in some kind of shady governmental entity doing Frank in. But it makes little sense.

_________________One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life comes from being happy over the good fortune of others.

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