Indeed and it sold better as expected. Much better. Never mind that some of the early sales were pre-orders on Steam where as LL launched only on Steam. This proves that hysteria over the launcher was overblown by a small minority.

No doubt that they may have lost a few sales over this. But the majority of those will buy it next year when it comes to Steam.

Indeed and it sold better as expected. Much better. Never mind that some of the early sales were pre-orders on Steam where as LL launched only on Steam. This proves that hysteria over the launcher was overblown by a small minority.

No doubt that they may have lost a few sales over this. But the majority of those will buy it next year when it comes to Steam.

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Not sure it proves much. Last Light sold pretty badly at the beginning, and only gained most of it's sales afterwards, once it got the REDUX treatment and got bundled in with 2033 and went frequently on sale. Had a much slower burn. But that created a lot of inertia for a followup title that would achieve more mainstream awareness. So its not an honest comparison and pretty much just spin.

Exodus also got free advertising and hype on Steam for a year and a half - including prominent frontpage and popup placements - before they took Epic's bribe and pulled the plug on Steam last minute. They'll never make up those sales - the springboard of the initial launch window is everything, as publishers often say.

The fact they're nervously trying to qualify how "well" the sales were on EGS but not disclosing actual figures comes across like maybe it didn't meet their expectations.

Hence the reason some of us are using "de facto" monopoly. It's about marketshare. There are dozens of search engines too, yet it's pretty safe to call Google a de facto monopoly. Yes, even with Bing existing.

Oh I hear you, it's more like I see them all as companies that will stab you in the back if it suits their business interests, hence the reason I don't want any one on top (including Epic). As far as I'm concerned GOG is the only one that actually does right by the customer. They're the only that can guarantee you'll get to keep all your games. So yeah, Epic is by no means a lovable little guy. Neither is Valve.

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I knew eventually we’d agree on a portion of this. The finer points are definitely up for debate.

It’s that whole “any coverage is good coverage thing”. Half the people like it, half hate it, but all of it adds to recognition. Plus, it could actually be the best METRO yet, but I won’t know for at least a year

Last light was still an obscure russian game, that had little hype and coverage. And on top every game sells more copies now than it would have a few years ago. So it is not a worthy comparison to make. Or at least you can't judge how much epic exclusivity affected sales from it.

Indeed and it sold better as expected. Much better. Never mind that some of the early sales were pre-orders on Steam where as LL launched only on Steam. This proves that hysteria over the launcher was overblown by a small minority.

No doubt that they may have lost a few sales over this. But the majority of those will buy it next year when it comes to Steam.

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A game that was extremely hyped sold 2.5x more copies, than an obscure game from a then unknown russian developer that had minimal coverage. Are you sure you want to draw any conclusions from that?
And please don't be dishonest, the "hysteria" is the least about the launcher. It is about bringing the practice of exclusives to PC. And the backhanded tactic of buying market share. Epic is like the person who buys every last concert ticket to make sure none is left for anyone else. And then sells them in front of the venue on worse terms.

A game that was extremely hyped sold 2.5x more copies, than an obscure game from a then unknown russian developer that had minimal coverage. Are you sure you want to draw any conclusions from that?
And please don't be dishonest, the "hysteria" is the least about the launcher. It is about bringing the practice of exclusives to PC. And the backhanded tactic of buying market share. Epic is like the person who buys every last concert ticket to make sure none is left for anyone else. And then sells them in front of the venue on worse terms.

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Exodus is still a small game that wasn't hyped up that much. LL wasn't the first game in the series either; you're acting like it was 2033. Again if this was such a deal breaker it would've sold poorly. Clearly it wasn't, it sold as expected. And yes the hysteria was indeed over the launcher. See all the dozens of copy/pasted posts about what the Epic client doesn't have (or didn't have) or how no one wants to use it. Practically no one was upset that it was exclusive to one client. If that was the case why aren't people whining about Last Light being Steam exclusive? Maybe you are only annoyed about them switching clients, but you're in the small minority.

As for the "OMG Epic is buying the games" argument I've yet to see anyone provide actual proof of this. Seems like some people can't grasp reality and figure out that when most publishers see an option to save money, they'll take it. Even with Valves tiered fee model you're going make more money selling on Epic's platform. This expands further if you're using UE4. Anyone who was on the fence is going to jump ship after seeing the success of Exodus. The market has spoken and they've said they really don't give a damn over any of this.

And none of it matters because if it was still selling on Steam the sales numbers would blow away EGS.

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Whatever small number of people who didn't buy it over it not being on Steam was outweighed by the benefits. Dropping the price to $50 likely gained them an equal amount of sales as those lost. And of those people who skipped it, most will end up buying it next near. It is a win win for Deep Silver.

Let us not forget about all the new developers jumping ship. If it was bad for business they wouldn't do it. Really, that should be all the indication you need. If putting your games on Epic is such a failing move no one would do it.

As for the "OMG Epic is buying the games" argument I've yet to see anyone provide actual proof of this. Seems like some people can't grasp reality and figure out that when most publishers see an option to save money, they'll take it. Even with Valves tiered fee model you're going make more money selling on Epic's platform. This expands further if you're using UE4. Anyone who was on the fence is going to jump ship after seeing the success of Exodus. The market has spoken and they've said they really don't give a damn over any of this.

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The sales from Steam would have been much higher than on EGS (possibly 30-50 times more). In the long run they will make less money because of the backlash from buying exclusives.

However as a customer I am the *only* person that decides if I'm willing to purchase your product. If you do stupid crap that I don't like then I just won't patronize your business. It's really that simple. I have more wants than I have money to purchase those wants. I also want a new pair of ice skates, a new DJI quad, etc. A business selling non-essential goods needs my (my as in consumer) money more than I need their product. If they want to restrict their sales opportunities to one marketplace they are completely free to do so.... but I'm also free to tell them their decision is unacceptable to me as a consumer and then go spend my disposable income elsewhere.

Exodus is still a small game that wasn't hyped up that much. LL wasn't the first game in the series either; you're acting like it was 2033. Again if this was such a deal breaker it would've sold poorly. Clearly it wasn't, it sold as expected. And yes the hysteria was indeed over the launcher. See all the dozens of copy/pasted posts about what the Epic client doesn't have (or didn't have) or how no one wants to use it. Practically no one was upset that it was exclusive to one client. If that was the case why aren't people whining about Last Light being Steam exclusive? Maybe you are only annoyed about them switching clients, but you're in the small minority.

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Exclusive to one client / one launcher is the same thing. What are you talking about? And yes the launcher features was a big issue when exodus was released, as it still didn't have offline capability. Which is a big no-no. They added that now however. And exclusivity is not about the launcher. Many games are exclusive to one launcher. There is nothing new there, hell most games had their own exclusive "launcher" for decades. Ie: When you click on the game it doesn't start but you get a small app with a splash screen where you can change settings, and report errors and such things.

Just becuause the youtube outrage factory and their mindless drones are hung up on the launcher doesn't mean that is what we should be worried about.

Every game on PC is sold in multiple stores regardless of the launcher, you can buy uplay / origin / steam games from multiple storefronts plus retail. That's what epic is trying to end. They won't allow 3rd parties to sell keys according to the latest news. That's the biggest issue. If you can get a product exclusively at one place that's the definition of having a monopoly for said product, and the height of being anti-competitive. Don't try to tell me that epic is bringing competition because clearly they are killing it. And I'm telling you anyone touting epic as a godsent are in for a harsh awakening when they realize what have they done.

And exodus is very far from a small game, don't try to tell me A when I can clearly see B, I saw how much exposure it got, and how hyped it was on youtube, I'm not blind. It could've, it would've done better, how much better, nobody knows, and that's what epic is banking on.
Which is the second part of the issue, that is still not the launcher. The stealing away of games that were already set to release without exclusivity.

As for the "OMG Epic is buying the games" argument I've yet to see anyone provide actual proof of this. Seems like some people can't grasp reality and figure out that when most publishers see an option to save money, they'll take it. Even with Valves tiered fee model you're going make more money selling on Epic's platform. This expands further if you're using UE4. Anyone who was on the fence is going to jump ship after seeing the success of Exodus. The market has spoken and they've said they really don't give a damn over any of this.

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Sure if you have your head in the sand. Phoenix point devs came out and said plainly that epic offered them at least 2 million upfront to make their game epic exclusive and they are just a small indie dev. They said that if they refunded the 2 million they got from their kickstarter campaign they'd still be ahead with epic. So there, proof enough for you? Can you imagine how much they offered for bigger titles?
The market has only spoken if you're a naive consumer, who can't differentiate between correlation and causation.

And even if ultimately everyone is as naive as you, and don't give a rat's ass about this, that still won't make what epic's doing right, or fair, or pro competition either.

Whatever small number of people who didn't buy it over it not being on Steam was outweighed by the benefits. Dropping the price to $50 likely gained them an equal amount of sales as those lost. And of those people who skipped it, most will end up buying it next near. It is a win win for Deep Silver.

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It sure is a win for deepsilver, who are already spending they "well earned" bonuses at the caymans. But for the devs this can turn nightmare. The game gets worse reviews for sure. And often their bonuses are tied to how well the game does critically not just financially.

Let us not forget about all the new developers jumping ship. If it was bad for business they wouldn't do it. Really, that should be all the indication you need. If putting your games on Epic is such a failing move no one would do it.

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Obviously it won't fail so badly to ruin them. But nobody can tell whether it would've made more or less if they didn't do it. And i'm firmly on the side of games making less on epic store. And either way it is a shit move from any dev, and it shows a clear fuck you mentality towards PC gamers. And as such I have zero sympathy for devs who do that.
And no, on exodus they only dropped the price for the US, to all other regions they said: Get bent.

And the people who say they'll wait wait the 12 months are naive as well. Waiting 12 months and then giving them your money, for making you wait 12 months? That's the worst way of protesting, if I've seen any.

So to sum it up, the main issues with epic are:

Buying exclusivity for games that are already touted as a steam / 3rd party release

Disallowing 3rd parties to sell games (cdkeys / gmg and such) making theirs an absolute monopoly on regional pricing

Everything else is minor and nothing more than the outrage about uplay or origin when those came out.

What they should've done if they wanted to be fair?

Bring games to their store, and offer them at a slightly lower price than on steam essentially subsidizing the gamer instead of the developers. They'd have come over voluntarily from steam with no backlash.

Fund exclusives, but only games that aren't already announced for a steam release.

Allow regional retailers and 3 party key sellers to sell games.

Ultimately it doesn't matter whether being epic exclusives will loose a bit of money to publishers, or make them a little. We're not talking about breaking the bank. It is the principle that matters. And it seems they have no principles, and certainly have no loyalty to gamers. And certainly have no sympathy. Then why should we have sympathy for them?
I can tell that whoever goes bait and switch has lost any sympathy I've had for them. "yeah but it's a better deal" is no excuse. Try pulling that on any contract and see the lawsuit you get slapped with.

So fuck epic, and fuck any dev/pub who takes their money and has the audacity to call the community toxic for not liking it.

gog it seems can no longer subsidise unfair regional pricing as they had to reduce their revenue share after epic entered the market.

steam and gog were friendly competitors everything was rosy and then these idiots came along.

How anyone thinks making exclusivity deals by bribing developers is good for the gaming market I dont know.

I expect sales for games on epic alone are down alot more than half, probably down 90% or so, no company in their right mind would be exclusive on epic without a wad of cash to compensate them.

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It might sound appealing, but blaming gog's financial trouble on the epic store is very dishonest.

They couldn't be an effective competitor, because their prices are high relative to the age of the games they are selling, their launcher is the biggest resource hog on the market, and as it seems lack of drm is not much of a selling point. What people have problem with is invasive drm.
As long as you don't suffer from the DRM it doesn't matter that it exists.

It might sound appealing, but blaming gog's financial trouble on the epic store is very dishonest.

They couldn't be an effective competitor, because their prices are high relative to the age of the games they are selling, their launcher is the biggest resource hog on the market, and as it seems lack of drm is not much of a selling point. What people have problem with is invasive drm.
As long as you don't suffer from the DRM it doesn't matter that it exists.

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The reason GoG has a regional cost issues, is because Steam drastically lowers developer pricing in multiple regions, which is unknown to multiple developers, and even when they know it's a massive PITA for developers to keep on top of the currency fluctuations. They either have to accept Steam cutting their prices or manage it all manually. GoG doesn't have the power to get away with unilaterally cutting developer prices like Steam does, so their pricing is higher in those regions. They tried to balance it for a while out of their cut, but in the long run that is unsustainable. Steam is really the culprit here, not Epic.

Since GoG has no DRM, it doesn't need a launcher, there is an optional one, but I have never used it, so saying it's a resource hog is somewhat moot.

Since GoG has no DRM, it doesn't need a launcher, there is an optional one, but I have never used it, so saying it's a resource hog is somewhat moot.

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In the end people like using launchers, it's a convenience. Of course having multiple launchers is not so much, that's why people have a preferred one, and since steam was the first, it will always be the preferred launcher of those who have dozens of games tied to it already. Not even the epic store can change that. But most still value their money more than their convenience, so there's that.

In the end people like using launchers, it's a convenience. Of course having multiple launchers is not so much, that's why people have a preferred one, and since steam was the first, it will always be the preferred launcher of those who have dozens of games tied to it already. Not even the epic store can change that. But most still value their money more than their convenience, so there's that.

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Steam may have conditioned Steam users, to launchers, but IMO Windows is the launcher, with shortcuts, start menu, etc, and has ZERO additional overhead.

Funny how it's "proprietary" when it's bad news, but suddenly not proprietary when a game's a big seller and they're yelling it from the rooftops-- "XYZ sells 5 million copies in first 72hrs" splashed across every gaming site.

Microsoft''s Xbox numbers used to be something they crowed about constantly... until the numbers got bad and they clammed up.

So how many console exclusives have they brought to PC now, 5? If Epic exclusives come at the cost of console exclusives, that works for me.

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What do you mean they are bringing it? Have they paid for them to be ported? No, without epic they would be sold on a number of places, but no, they snatched exclusivity rights. Besides this was announced along with the outer worlds so

So why are you trying to give them credit like it is thanks to them?

Looks like there are a lot of epic store cheerleaders here, I wonder why are you celebrating the end of the PC as an open platform.

What do you mean they are bringing it? Have they paid for them to be ported? No, without epic they would be sold on a number of places, but no, they snatched exclusivity rights. Besides this was announced along with the outer worlds so

So why are you trying to give them credit like it is thanks to them?

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Uh, citation needed. If they would have sold "a number of places", then multiple companies were sure taking their sweet time doing it:

Flower = released 2009 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Heavy Rain = released 2010 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Journey = released 2012 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Beyond: Two Souls = released 2013 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Detroit: Become Human = released 2018 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive

So you're saying it's just a MASSIVE COINCIDENCE these games from multiple companies are all announcing right now that they're coming out for Epic store and were planning on releasing on Steam this whole time and just decided to wait up to 10 years to do it? I'm assuming yes, Epic paid to bring these games to PC.

I know you won't get it, but I'm not celebrating Epic, I'm just happy for more competition, and look! It's bringing multiple games to PC that were never there before! Do you have ANY evidence these games would have come to PC if Epic never stepped in?

Uh, citation needed. If they would have sold "a number of places", then multiple companies were sure taking their sweet time doing it:

Flower = released 2009 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Heavy Rain = released 2010 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Journey = released 2012 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Beyond: Two Souls = released 2013 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Detroit: Become Human = released 2018 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive

So you're saying it's just a MASSIVE COINCIDENCE these games from multiple companies are all announcing right now that they're coming out for Epic store and were planning on releasing on Steam this whole time and just decided to wait for up to 10 years?

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I can't prove a negative. You made the assertion that epic is responsible for these games coming to the PC. You need to prove it. Whatever is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

As for why now: Quantic Dream recently broke their ties with Sony, they were a Sony exclusive developer, that's why they couldn't bring their games to PC until now.
It was rumored that they'd bring games to PC (exact titles weren't mentioned if I remember correctly), but there were job listings for PC specific positions on their page last year.
You are connecting dots that aren't meant to be connected, unless you have additional information the rest of us are not privy to.

Edit: Heavy Rain was originally meant to come to PC, but Sony offered them a deal, same as now Epic is offering everyone deals.

Sure if you have your head in the sand. Phoenix point devs came out and said plainly that epic offered them at least 2 million upfront to make their game epic exclusive and they are just a small indie dev. They said that if they refunded the 2 million they got from their kickstarter campaign they'd still be ahead with epic. So there, proof enough for you? Can you imagine how much they offered for bigger titles?

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That is not what they said. What you're claiming is outright wrong assuming this article is correct:

The Gamer said:

The community manager went on to clarify the terms of the deal, saying that Epic's promise didn't come in the form of a single paycheck. Instead it was "for a minimum guarantee - which means Epic will guarantee that we will sell X number of copies. Even if we don't hit that number, they still pay us.

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Massive difference. They didn't get paid anything. What they do have is a guarantee. If their sales flop Epic will cover them by X amount. If the game goes on to be successful they won't get a payout.

What? You're pulling that out of your ass. Until a few months ago Epic Store was merely a launcher for Fornite. GOG's financial troubles a long running and entirely unrelated. They don't even allow DRM, which excludes the vast majority of modern games. GOG is a niche site. It is nice, but clearly it isn't a sound business.

gog it seems can no longer subsidise unfair regional pricing as they had to reduce their revenue share after epic entered the market.

I expect sales for games on epic alone are down alot more than half, probably down 90% or so, no company in their right mind would be exclusive on epic without a wad of cash to compensate them.

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And this is exactly what I am talking about. We already know this isn't the case. Metro Exodus proves this. Are you seriously thinking Exodus would have outsold Last Light by 1000-1200%?! Not even close. It sold better than LL, as expected. By a massive margin. And that isn't including the thousands of pre-orders still honored on Steam. Sure, maybe 10,000 people didn't purchase Exodus because of the client change. But another 10,000 purchased it because it was $10 cheaper (for people who don't use 3rd party sites).

Whatever the loss of sales numbers is, it is easily made up via lower selling fees or lower selling cost passed onto customers.

I can't prove a negative. You made the assertion that epic is responsible for these games coming to the PC.

You need to prove it. Whatever is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

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My evidence is both Quantic Dream and thatgamecompany haven't had PC titles since 2005. Epic is bringing the whole catalog of both companies to PC at the same time. That's quite the coincidence. That's what's known as supporting evidence. It doesn't prove it beyond a doubt, but it does support the claim as the timing is highly improbably otherwise.

You said without Epic they would be sold in a number of places. Where's YOUR evidence for that claim? They've never been available on PC until now, nor have any of these games been announced they would be coming to PC since they entered an exlcusive contract with Sony. How do you know Epic didn't have a hand in helping them break away from Sony? Again, it's Quantic dreams AND thatgamecompany both at the same time that just so happens to be ideal for Epic. At least I have supporting evidence for my claim. You haven't listed ANY evidence for your claim.

Uh, citation needed. If they would have sold "a number of places", then multiple companies were sure taking their sweet time doing it:

Flower = released 2009 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Heavy Rain = released 2010 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Journey = released 2012 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Beyond: Two Souls = released 2013 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive
Detroit: Become Human = released 2018 only for Playstation, announced for PC this year as Epic exclusive

So you're saying it's just a MASSIVE COINCIDENCE these games from multiple companies are all announcing right now that they're coming out for Epic store and were planning on releasing on Steam this whole time and just decided to wait up to 10 years to do it? I'm assuming yes, Epic paid to bring these games to PC.

I know you won't get it, but I'm not celebrating Epic, I'm just happy for more competition, and look! It's bringing multiple games to PC that were never there before! Do you have ANY evidence these games would have come to PC if Epic never stepped in?

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Yes they would have been on PC anyway.

There is many games released previously that were originally PS3/PS4 exclusive then appeared on steam later after the code was ported.