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Topic: Recovery long term theist (Read 4110 times)

I've been lurking about here for months reading and dare I say learning, so I finally took the leap and joined. Thanks to all of you for your insights - it's truly been enlightening, in a non-theistic way!

I grew up in aso. baptist home and raised my hand for jeezus at a young age, hoping to avoid hell and all that glop. For 36 years I was a "good xian." I taught some sunday school classes, went to bible studies, read my bible in spurts and tended to pray at least once a day - never for amputees though. I guess I didn't believe after all...

Finally, I confronted the doubts I'd had over the years but had just chosen to ignore, thanks to the religious kool-aid that kept me quiet. I even enjoyed reading apologetics - although I stayed away from online battles.

Finally, I dove into the questions and it's amazing how clear things become when you realize what a scam the whole thing is. I won't belabor the point, but I'm done with it all and am fully agnostic atheistic. The tipping point was Genesis - whoah! and the lunacy of the 4 gospels.

I'm still living a bit of a lie - I'm in the closet, as far as my family goes. My wife is a big time believer and to even question things is a major "lack of faith" so I'm just staying out of that horrible battle. It won't end well.

Thanks again for all your support - you post logical, helpful info and it really lifts me up when I wander back home sunday afternoon after nearly biting my tongue off sitting through another church service.

I somehow ended up watching nonstampcollector videos on youtube and I think there was a link somewhere for good sites with similar issues. <=== best as I can recall, I was gobbling up lots of stuff when the jeezusfog cleared

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

Welcome aboard Neo... I am glad you chose the green pill (or was it the red one?)the important part is you realized there is no spoon. Good luck with youre family situation, I know it is likely difficult... perhaps you could slowly withdraw from the religious stuff so by the time they realize whats going on its already obvious. Perhaps she even has doubts and is over compensating? I dont know...

Glad to hear your rationality defeated your indoctrination. Not the easiest of paths.

Re: home/married life, how do you keep your internet atheist interest closeted? Don't get me wrong, I understand the absolute pointlessness of burning down your house with heated disagreements over faith/belief. You are very much not alone here in that quandary, but do you delete all net history ...every time?

Just saying accidental exposure might be as problematic as deliberately raising the subject.

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"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester." Bill Bailey

thanks the Gawd - I chose the IV drip. It went right to the bloodstream quicker. As for the wife, no doubts since she never questions it. She was raised catholic and had her doubts, but like a good baptist I showed her the light <sigh>. now that light burns brightly and jeezus helps with everything from stopped up toilets to healing colds at our house, although he points me to the plunger and snot rags...

kin hell - firefox private browsing setting is a nice tool for those of us hiding amongst the hangers and dirty laundry. My greatest concern is the stash of atheistic kindle titles I have... but that device is "too complicated" for her to pick up LOL.

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who equip yourselves with burning torches! Walk by the light of your fire, and by the torches that you have kindled! This you have from my hand: you shall lie down in torment. Isaiah 50:11

kin hell - why do I have a feeling my wife will be quoting me such a verse one day?

Or pointing out how to kindle means to start a fire... in the soul that will consummate in eternal damnation, or some such rot? Actually, she is not an evil gal, just so far entrenched in the bible nonsense I cannot communicate with her about it.

Doesn't help I'm in the bible belt and surrounded by these folks...

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

Hi, neopagan, welcome to WWGHA. I'm glad to hear that you've found discussion here helpful to you. There are a number of people here who have had to deal with the "coming out" aspect of being an atheist, so I hope that they'll be helpful to you with that as well.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

I'm still living a bit of a lie - I'm in the closet, as far as my family goes. My wife is a big time believer and to even question things is a major "lack of faith" so I'm just staying out of that horrible battle. It won't end well.

It's not easy to live among the brainwashed. It is an untreatable illness.

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John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Welcome Neopagan, It's such a weird feeling. My parents church I grew up in does alot of good things - resettling refugee families, raising money with 5k runs for a family that had lost a father in Iraq, or giving gardening classes, etc. And I still like christmas. I like when a sermon makes people squirm for our absolute obsession with wealth. So yes, I can visit and feel my own huge hypocrisy, sitting in the pew believing that no deity has ever existed.

Edit - churches should also be raising money for Iraqi families that lost fathers to U.S. bullets.

shnozzola - the church I "attend" does a lot of good for folks as wel (and a lot of bad, if I'm honest)l, but it's the scale of BS they spend money on that irks me. It's a pretty wealthy church - lots of multi media, a rock show sing a thon, pastors stashed in every corner of the sanctuary to save your soul, and I'm a million miles away while I sit there with my pasted on grin.

I don't give them a penny, other than to register my kids for this or that camp, swim party, etc. I still help out on a team that goes directly to widows, single moms and such to help them out with yard work, house repairs and the like but I don't use that as a means to "spread the word" for sure. One homebound old lady sent a thank you note once that said how we were god's hands or some such nonsense. I thought if god wanted to help, being omni-everything and all, he wouldn't need my freaking hands - especially the hands of this godless sinner - LOL.

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

Hi!I am also in the closet about my "lack of faith" to my family. It's not my choosing it's out of respect for my wife. I began having doubts and spoke to my wife about them and she had been having major doubts for months. Both of us were relieved but she has a very devout family and doesn't want to hurt them. They may not like to hear that their little darling is going to burn in hell forever and ever amen. They also would not like to know that we will be raising our son to be a "free thinker". I'm sure it's bound to come out... but with our son only being 4 we can give it a little time I guess.

My wife and I were both Sunday School teacher's as well. I guess the more you know the more you may doubt.

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"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

They also would not like to know that we will be raising our son to be a "free thinker". I'm sure it's bound to come out... but with our son only being 4 we can give it a little time I guess.

I encouraged my daughter to go through confirmation classes to learn all about the religion her mother wanted her to have. My daughter did not know my thoughts on religion, but after starting the classes she would bring home questionnaires to complete with a parent. These questionnaires were humorous from my perspective. She would also ask me basic questions like, Why don't you attend church? The questionnaires assumed that the parent answering does attend church. I answered to her only the questions she asked and only to the extent she asked them, nothing more. She caught on rather quickly.

After explaining to her that I don't believe in the things that other people believe, and why I don't believe those things, like requiring proof to believe in something that I cannot see, touch, smell or taste, she determined on her own that a rational approach to unanswered questions is best. Furthermore, with each passing week of confirmation class, she became a thorn by asking the instructors some basic questions that they had difficulty answering -- by her descriptions, they were rather flummoxed. She did get some jibes from her fellow confirmation classmates in the form of peer pressure to conform -- she didn't. She took pride in not conforming. I did tell her not to make so much a ruckus in the confirmation class or the instructors would pull her out and she would have to explain to her mother what was going on.

Consequently, I asked her not to share these things with the rest of the family. I told her it will just upset them unnecessarily. Since the rest of the family (many of them, anyway) will think that she is going to hell for being an non-believer, what exactly will be accomplished? Nothing. I used the same rational reasoning with her about the issue of god that I did with discussing her own non-belief with family members. She did have a strong issue against going through with the actual confirmation ceremony. She became very worried about it. I let her know that if she didn't believe any of it, then what would it matter? It's just a ritual. It would only have meaning if she believed in a different god and that god got angry -- since she didn't believe in a deity, there is no supernatural force to answer. She said she didn't want to disrespect the others who are going through the ceremony. I told her that not showing disrespect was a good thing, but likely there were others in her class who also doubted -- did she think they were showing disrespect by going through the ceremony? She said no. She knew that some of them were doubters. I asked her if she was willing to undergo the wrath of a family who thinks she will go to hell for not getting confirmed. She didn't want that, either. I told her believers are like drug addicts. If you tell them that they can't have their drugs, they get angry and do stupid things ... anyway, this is a short summary of what happened. Actually, you can talk with your 4 year old about an amazing number of things: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/02/20/the-caricatures-of-cops-ctd-2/

I don't argue with family members about their political positions, so I see no need to argue with them about their theological positions, either. Some things are better left unsaid.

I'm glad you all can have those open discussions with your wife and kids. That's an amazing, wonderful thing - to allow each other to think for yourself - openly, even if there's some disagreement. As far as sharing those views beyond the confines of your immediate family - well that can get tricky I'm sure.

Unfortunately, I don't have a spouse who is open to even having those discussions - it's a closed book. A couple weeks ago, I'd managed to avoid attending church with her and the kids due to a backache (these illnesses pop up often with me on Sundays ). We went for a walk when she returned and she began telling me about the message that morning - the sermon on the mount. I asked what I thought was a fairly straightforward question: "Did the pastor address how he thought Matthew could recount the sermon verbatim about 40 years after the event when he wrote the gospel?" Here are the questions/comments I got rapid-fire without a chance to answer before she stormed off, walk over:

"Are you saying you doubt the bible is the inerrant word of god - every word in it!?"; "Where did you come up with such a foolish thought to even question what the bible says?"; "Do you realize these thoughts come straight to you from satan - and you are his tool?!"; "You need to fall on your face in prayer for even having such foolish thoughts and you should take off work next week to study the word day in and day out to get your mind right!"' "If you have these foolish thoughts, keep them to yourself and don't even breathe a word of them to the kids - you can wallow in sin on your own."

I knew she wouldn't entertain "atheism" but I was a little shocked how a rather benign question prompted such vitriol... needless to say I know my place in the closet now for sure. She never brought it up again and I don't plan on it either...

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

I knew she wouldn't entertain "atheism" but I was a little shocked how a rather benign question prompted such vitriol... needless to say I know my place in the closet now for sure. She never brought it up again and I don't plan on it either...

I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to have to live in the closet like that with people that you're close to.

I'm not a professional in any pertinent field or anything, but I suspect you might want to talk to a counselor (about how to deal with the situation) and possibly a lawyer (in case things get ugly if and when she finds out). I really hate to sound grim, but you can be screwed over by just about anybody, even people from whom you would least expect it. You don't want to be unprepared if she does something like pack a suitcase for you and tell you you don't live in that house anymore. That might sound paranoid, and maybe it is, but it's happened to me. I can therefore report from experience that it really, really sucks.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

I don't plan on going anywhere outside my safe little closet any time soon - I'm just a pretender. It sucks big time to have to pretend your way through conversations with your wife, but that's how it has to be. Most nights we (family) even read the bible after dinner - I used to make a "study" out of it and try to dig into it, but now I just read it and shut up.

pianodwarf - I agree, things would get ugly. We've tried counseling before for other issues, but she's a my way or the highway sorta gal, so that didn't go so well. One day, when kids are gone, I will pop out of the closet and whatever happens... happens.

screw - looking forward to hearing your spiel

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

In fact, I was pretty much going to rewrite that. So, just read that post and the rest of the thread. Gnu and Azdgari made some good points. Kerlyssa and RiOtL did not.

Screw - I can live with the criticism and I did read the thread. I cannot really try to justify my actions, since in essence I am a fraud. What I see as marginally different is I am talking about being closeted to my wife and kids, not some parents or friends I am afraid of disappointing. I am curious, do you see the level of relationship as mitigating or enhancing to your view?

I ask because my situation would be #3 in the post... my wife WILL NOT accept it. Do I split, lose my kids and fuck all or stay in the closet? That is a tough call. For me, I choose the pussy route as you call it and realize the consequences.

Thanks for the critique btw... Helps me think

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

The sticking point seems to be that we are discussing your wife, a person with whom you share an entire life (I assume). It's quite easy for me to avoid having this discussion with the members of my family that will respond badly (and to be honest, that's pretty much all of them excluding my own children) because we don't have much day-today interaction, due partially to distance and partially to preference.

I don't broadcast the fact that I'm an atheist all that widely, for a lot of different reasons. I withhold it from my family largely to withhold it from my mother. I see no value in telling her - my family has a long tradition of ignoring that which we don't want to discuss (makes me nuts but it's a dynamic that I can't seem to change with any of them) and I think she suspects but is avoiding actually knowing. If she asks me outright, I won't lie to her, but as long as she avoids the topic, I'm willing to play along. It's not a game I enjoy, but it has the "value" of being very familiar

This is a very different situation that you are faced with. I'm getting the impression that your kids are your primary concern - can I ask how old they are?

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

The sticking point seems to be that we are discussing your wife, a person with whom you share an entire life (I assume). It's quite easy for me to avoid having this discussion with the members of my family that will respond badly (and to be honest, that's pretty much all of them excluding my own children) because we don't have much day-today interaction, due partially to distance and partially to preference.

This is a very different situation that you are faced with. I'm getting the impression that your kids are your primary concern - can I ask how old they are?

As for the wife - 20+ years together. Most of that time on the same wavelength spiritually - fundies and all... not now (for me).

As for the kids, 3 of them: 10, 12, 16 years old. They kids are all "believers" as well, although they haven't quite grown into the rabid fundamentalism my wife displays.

So yes, the kids and keeping the family structure intact are my primary concerns. If it were just me and the wife, I'd not welcome the war but I'd fight it, lose it and move on. Beisdes, we live out here in zeusforsaken Oklahoma - many miles away from either of our family members, so we are all we have in that regard.

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan

Let's get this out of the way up front - I'm not calling your decision the pussy route. I don't think it is. You're new to atheism and still figuring it out. Delaying can be a reasonable and valid strategy. But usually it is just procrastination of one sort or another.

Second, I do see your situation as different than CGA's. In a lot of ways I think your situation is harder. But I also think there are some very fundamental similarities.

There are two basic reasons why I bother to hassle people on this forum about being out. The first is for the interest of all atheists. We are parriahs, like homosexuals in the 1960s. Except we are even more hated and mistrusted. One of the things the gays figured out was that when people realized there were gays in their lives they cared about, it changed how they perceived all gays. That applies to us too. So on a grand scale and in general, I think it is important for atheists to be out because it can help change attitudes about us for the better.

Second is for your benefit. A lot of people who lose their belief in god think it will be easier if they just continue on like nothing changed. But something did change. And being dishonest about it is not the answer. I think from a practical stand point, being dishonest makes it worse for you and for the people who care about you. So what I urge is not that you come out, necessarily, but that you have a plan.

It is more important for you to figure this out and have a plan than it was for CGA because in a lot of ways your situation more closely resembles infidelity.

I'm not saying you are cheating on your wife. I don't think you are. But you are hiding a significant part of who you are from her and for her it will feel like you were cheating when she figures it out. And I am pretty sure she will figure it out eventually. Probably sooner than you expect.

So the plan cannot be just to play theist indefinitely. For the short term, that may be fine. But assume she will notice subtle changes and put it together within a month or two. She may not. But assume you are living on borrowed time anyway. Use that time to make a plan. It will be better if you come to her in openness and honesty looking for compassion than it will if she has to put it together like a detective, confront you and pry out the truth.

I like to think that loved ones will still love us once they know the real us. But I'm not naive. I have no idea how she will respond and you should know better I. You should include in your plan a scenario for splitting up. That is a possibility whether you tell her or she figures it out.

And gtfo of Oklahoma. They are goddamn savages there, man. I've known Hindus more civilized.

...with a 10 year old as your youngest, that's a long time to keep a secret this big.

At this point I can't think of a single helpful thing to add, other than to sincerely wish you luck in navigating this situation and to suggest that you not rush into a decision about how to handle this - but plan for it.

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“Be skeptical. But when you get proof, accept proof.” –Michael Specter

I didn't take offense at that "pussy" route comment It is a way of procrastinating, although I do doubt I can keep it up for years on end.

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There are two basic reasons why I bother to hassle people on this forum about being out. The first is for the interest of all atheists. We are parriahs, like homosexuals in the 1960s. Except we are even more hated and mistrusted. One of the things the gays figured out was that when people realized there were gays in their lives they cared about, it changed how they perceived all gays. That applies to us too. So on a grand scale and in general, I think it is important for atheists to be out because it can help change attitudes about us for the better.

I see the analogy with the homosexuals of earlier years, but I think the tricky part of it is the majority of xians (fundies) don't view them any differently than they did in the 60s - they are still "sinners in need of saving." Maybe there's the token xian out there who has softened a bit because his cousin/son/lover is gay, but I bet most of them still are repulsed... by the sin mind you, not the sinner (whatever that means). So, would I be any closer to winning a xian over as a nice, normal, moral atheist? I don't think so, they'd still see me as someone they need to convert.

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It is more important for you to figure this out and have a plan than it was for CGA because in a lot of ways your situation more closely resembles infidelity.

My major takeaway from your advice is to have a plan. I really do need to have this worked out more fervently. For now, I'd actually welcomed the "so, what's up are you some kind of atheist now?" as a way to deal with my wife's concerns, but that's completely reactionary. Also, I had thought about the idea of it being like infidelity before (never explored that btw). I guess my rationalization was I was taking something away from "me" that didn't fit - not doing something behind her back. This will take some work - the plan...

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I like to think that loved ones will still love us once they know the real us. But I'm not naive. I have no idea how she will respond and you should know better I. You should include in your plan a scenario for splitting up. That is a possibility whether you tell her or she figures it out.

I'd like to think that too, but I know this wouldn't work that way. I will include all options in the plan, sadly enough.

OK is a weird place for sure! Thanks for your advice.

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is. - neopagan