On 1/09/2004 SameSame wrote:>Climbing is an art. Those who put up climbs are the artists. Those who>climb it are the critics. If an artist makes a sculpture, does he add clay?>Or does he remove the inessentials until he gets his master piece?

Face it "SameSame" (NoName), one self-proclaimed "artists" so-called "master-piece" may well turn out to be another climbers "dogs-breakfast". Or didn't you think of that?

On 1/09/2004 SameSame wrote:>Climbing is an art. Those who put up climbs are the artists. Those who>climb it are the critics.
Agreed, ... but they are still climbers.

>If an artist makes a sculpture, does he add clay?>Or does he remove the inessentials until he gets his master piece?
Maybe for an artist but it is NOT right for climbers, as there is a big difference between modifying rock and canvass/sculpting clay.

>Ben has written himself into Australian Climbing history. He is an inspiration>to many, including myself. To those of you who object to Bens actions..>try a new sport.. perhaps table tennis...
or modifying canvass/sculpting clay.

Kenny, your post is of course personally insulting and quite hypocritical. For starters, what is the point of launching into personal insults and finishing with >peace out, Kenith Rogers. Eh? But, you know what, whatever… I hope you feel better now.

On 30/08/2004 Mighty Mouse wrote:>kenny the way i feel 'bout it and the vibe i got others was over his actions>not him as a person....admittedly there was stuff said about 'selfish'>and the like, but again it was that knocking the hold off is selfish etc.>not that he is....im sure he does regret it, and obviously something like>that is going to stir some reactions in the community, but seriously, im>over it, i would think that most people are, its a shame to hear that he>isn’t…
Well said Josh. This largely sums it up for me.

A few quick further (final?) points: If that’s how he feels then it’s a pity Ben didn’t realise how this might go down in the broader climbing community. It’s also a pity this whole thing wasn’t reported properly in the first place (re Garths opinion on grade and re the chipping). I’ve spent hours correcting the disinformation on this topic already and there has been no end of opportunity for others, such as Ben himself or Jark, to do something more proactive themselves if they weren’t happy about anything. I thought I'd made it pretty clear that stopping this route from being down-graded was probably not the intention, but I’m saying it’s quite possibly a result. It's not really fair to down-grade a route that hasn't even been repeated, but if this hadn't occurred then it looks like it might have been. It has created a bit of a dilemma. Just shows how short-sighted manufacturing can turn out to be eh?

By the way, if anyone thinks personal insults are going to stop me speaking out on issues I feel are important, then they are wrong! At least have guts to use your real name if you’re going to try though.

And by the way, I’m never going to buy “ya gotta do it MY way”. I’m just not going to succumb to that!

I’VE NOTHING MORE TO ADD ON THIS SPECIFIC INCIDENT at this time BUT IF I need to add anything later, then I will!
__________________________

Truly a Velvia moment everyone.
__________________________
PS, Hex, thanks for watching my back the other night, I didn’t see the sniper sneaking up, he was well disguised.

It's safe to come out of your bunkers now. But be careful, there are spies in disguise and double-agents amongst us, and they can counter strike at any time... Luckily we the likes of Nick Kaz around:

On 31/08/2004 Nick Kaz wrote:>hmmm, off topic but, I'v only read the phrase "two fifths of f--- all">from Robbo and kenny R, Both in chipping threads, is there a coincidence>here?
Very perceptive actually. The coincidence may turn out to be less than first appears.
On 12/08/2004 nmonteith wrote:>His name is Rowan (Rohan?) Druce not Robbo.

That'd be Rowan Druce – Rowan with a double-you.
See how sneaky they are!

On 31/08/2004 robbo wrote:>...Then>everyone can go play spot the chips (only three of them by the way). i>doubt they will be noticed. It's actually really f**king awsome. the robbo>double thumbs up.
Hey Robbo, still holding the double thumbs up – good to see. Now smile, and say “CHEEESE”. Thanks for that.
------------------------------------
Another Velvia moment, brought to you courtesy of Onsight Photography (“Bringing Colour to Your World”) and the Blond Army Manufacturing Corps.

Oh, by the way Kenny, when I spoke with Ben briefly up at the shops this morning he didn’t seem too perturbed by all this at all. If some of the insults flung around earlier had bothered him, then he certainly seems to be over it now.

on this point....i was climbing in Le Brevant in Chamonix on a multi pitch sport route....a 5c bolted corner system with one of the guys who put it up. He is a guide and said that a lot of loose rock had to be cleaned off. Loose rock meant blocks the size of fridges apparently and went crashing down to the tree line knocking out a couple of trees....of course this was in June when there was (hopefully) no one around.

you can't compare alpine rock to the Bluies in this situation... alpine rock has far more variables contributing to the erosion of the rock (i.e. snow ice melt thaw). an open project with multiple climbers working is yet another story.