For those who like philosophy and have faith in God, does philosophy strengthen your faith? how so, why?

The reason why I ask is because certain truths of God known by one man by faith, can not be known by him through reasoning; and truths of God known by that man by reasoning can not be known by him by faith, but these truths known of God by this man through reasoning, can only be known as long as the man had faith in God. They can not overlap, and this is very basic. Since they do not overlap, why is it that reason can aid someones faith, since these truths known of God through reasoning, and truths known of God by faith are seperate? Just a question that I havent given much thought to, I just accepted it, because it seemed obvious to me, never questioned why this is though...

_________________"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon

Your first category is correct -- there are things we can know about God only by faith. Your second category is not -- although there are things we can know about God via natural reason, we can also know them by faith. Faith is actually a stronger kind of knowing, since our own unaided reason doesn't always function properly, whereas what we know by faith, we know on the authority of God, who doesn't make mistakes and doesn't mislead.

(Also note that philosophy helps us to understand things we know only by faith; we can apply philosophy to, for example, the revealed doctrine of the Trinity so that we can gain a better understanding of what it means, and a better appreciation of the mystery of those parts we can never fully comprehend.)

Also note that philosophy helps us to understand things we know only by faith; we can apply philosophy to, for example, the revealed doctrine of the Trinity so that we can gain a better understanding of what it means, and a better appreciation of the mystery of those parts we can never fully comprehend

Right, thats what I meant when I said,

"...and truths of God known by that man by reasoning (through philosophy in other words) can not be known by him by faith, but these truths known of God by this man through reasoning (philosophy), can only be known as long as the man had faith in God. "

-- (Faith as a foundation in other words), unless there can be no other way to understand the Trinity better and other mysteries. There must be a foundation of faith first, then we can use reasoning. Faith and reason still remain seperate in these examples

Of course, one has to have faith first in order to be aided by reason, but How does philosophy and reason aid faith when they are seperate powers to understanding truths of God? It's amazing to me.

For example: I have faith in God. When I start reading philosophy by St Thomas or others, Plato, etc., and come to understand what they are "finally" saying (:)) about certain truths of God, my faith increases (thanks be to God) and I understood these truths by using the instrument of reasoning, not faith. But, there is no way I could fully grip what they were saying--well especially the doctors of the Church-St. Thomas-UNLESS, I had faith in God first-a foundation

Of course, only by the grace of God...faith--a gift from God, plus reasoning--a gift from God, and I thank Him.

_________________"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon

I suspect that what Matthew is saying is that reason is a priori. We are born with the inate ability to draw inferences, make deductions, etc. Whereas faith is the fruition of proper reasoning. It is the end result of reason. As I heard Fr. Corapi mention, to be insane (an inability to reason) is to be out of touch with God (faith, for our purposes here).

I apologize in advance Matthew if I have completely mangled your argument. Please eloborate if this is the case.

I suspect that what Matthew is saying is that reason is a priori. We are born with the inate ability to draw inferences, make deductions, etc. Whereas faith is the fruition of proper reasoning. It is the end result of reason. As I heard Fr. Corapi mention, to be insane (an inability to reason) is to be out of touch with God (faith, for our purposes here).

I apologize in advance Matthew if I have completely mangled your argument. Please eloborate if this is the case.

Reason is prior in the order of being, but it does not follow that reason is the "fruition of proper reasoning". If that were true there would be no merit in believing. In addition, since faith is a gratuitous grace of God, the act of theological faith cannot come from the effort of man, but only of God. Further, faith is not discursive, but one, simple and infallible, considered in its essential character as an intellectual virtue.

I suspect that what Matthew is saying is that reason is a priori. We are born with the inate ability to draw inferences, make deductions, etc. Whereas faith is the fruition of proper reasoning. It is the end result of reason. As I heard Fr. Corapi mention, to be insane (an inability to reason) is to be out of touch with God (faith, for our purposes here).

I apologize in advance Matthew if I have completely mangled your argument. Please eloborate if this is the case.

Reason is prior in the order of being, but it does not follow that reason is the "fruition of proper reasoning". If that were true there would be no merit in believing. In addition, since faith is a gratuitous grace of God, the act of theological faith cannot come from the effort of man, but only of God. Further, faith is not discursive, but one, simple and infallible, considered in its essential character as an intellectual virtue.

I used 'fruition' and 'perfection' synonymously which is clearly not the case.

Reason precedes faith, logically and temporally, not vice versa. Faith is the perfection of human reason. Just like the supernatural must presuppose the natural.

St. Augustine would disagree...he says "faith precedes understanding" (which you can only understand things by reason), which i agree with...He was talking about truths of God-divine truths...

Quote:

Faith is the perfection of human reason.

this i agree with...

_________________"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon

St. Augustine would disagree...he says "faith precedes understanding" (which you can only understand things by reason), which i agree with...He was talking about truths of God-divine truths...

You are not interpreting St. Augustine correctly. The gift of faith precedes the gift of understanding, which the latter is an infused intellectual virtue to help a soul pierce deeply into the divine mysteries. As I said before, the act and virtue of faith necessarily supposes the potency of the intellect.

You are not interpreting St. Augustine correctly. The gift of faith precedes the gift of understanding, which the latter is an infused intellectual virtue to help a soul pierce deeply into the divine mysteries. As I said before, the act and virtue of faith necessarily supposes the potency of the intellect.

Right. I agree..thats why I said faith precedes reason or understanding, truths of God, both gifts from God......I like what you say here, above...But you said before:

Quote:

Reason precedes faith, logically and temporally, not vice versa.

So what do you mean by these two quotes?

_________________"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon

Last edited by Dionysius on Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

_________________"The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ's faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed." -Pope Pius XII

Some of these ecumenists are so preoccupied with Christian unity that they are willing to destroy Catholic unity in the name of Christian unity. - Fr. John Hardon

I was a Philo major in college. Everybody back home (rural Bible-belt country) thought I was insane and going to wind up an atheist.

What many don't understand is that the best way to combat atheism and modernism is with hardcore philosophical arguments. You can't appeal to Scripture or Tradition because these are rejected immediately. The only way is to use philosophy to get your foot in the door. Then hit them with the other two.