MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC HOST: This morning, my question. Have we really come to the end of men? Plus, one year since occupy Wall Street began. Where are they now?

And the legendary Maya Angelou discusses with me the power of her name.

But first, how Mitt Romney learned the hard way that presidents don`t get to pick their crises.

Good morning. I`m Melissa Harris-Perry.

With the November elections weeks away, national attention has been laser focused on the presidential race. But this week, that seemingly singular event was forced to take a back seat as violence erupted across the Middle East and beyond. Many of those taking to the streets were responding to an unfortunate American-made video which many felt insulted the prophet Mohammed.

On Tuesday, an infamous gunman joined the crowd outside the U.S. embassy in Benghazi, Libya breeching the compound walls and killing the U.S. ambassador Christopher Stevens, Navy Seals Glenn Doherty and Tyrone Woods, and diplomat Sean Smith.

President Obama honored them at Andrews air force base in Maryland on Friday as he and we watched the flag draped coffins descend from a military plane. Many of us, we are struck by this somber event and by the very images of American bodies shrouded in the flag. That image which for so long was censored until President Obama lifted the 18-year ban in his first year in office. The policy was put into place by President George H. W. Bush in 1991 during the gulf war and was upheld by his son during the second gulf war in Iraq serving only to obscure the true cost of war from so many American citizens.

The president, alongside secretary of state Hillary Clinton, marked the contributions of our slain diplomats in Maryland on Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Greater love hath no man than this that a man lay down his life for his friends. The flag they serve under now carries them home. May God bless the memory of these men who laid down their lives for us all. May God watch over your families and all who love them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Since Tuesday, protests have grown beyond Libya and Egypt to U.S. embassies in Iraq, Pakistan, Syria, Turkey, India and more. And as we watch the anger spread, we remain hopeful that those upset by the film as well as those who have seized this opportunity for violence will recognize that just as we prize freedom of speech, this country equally stands for freedom of religion. And the president echoed these sentiments in his weekly address yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: This tragic attack takes place at a time of turmoil and protests in many different countries. I`ve made it clear that the United States has a profound respect for people of all faiths. We stand for religious freedom. And we reject the denigrations of any religion, including Islam.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So, just as freedom of speech has consequences so do all aspects of the democratic prospects. We all watched with high hopes as the very same countries that have been burning American flags this week embrace democracy during the Arab spring.

So, how do we balance this tolerance against our own country`s very real need for security? These are complicated questions. Life or death questions. One that we rely on our presidents and their administrations to address on our behalf. This is the work of the commander in chief.

Violence in streets across the Arab world in the past days should remind us that these clearly are not abstract policy questions. They`re not just about etiology. And yet, this was somehow, it seems, lost on the Republican presidential challenger and his foreign policy team this week. Governor Mitt Romney rushed out of the gate with this statement late on Tuesday night.

Saying "I`m outraged by the attacks on American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt and by the death of an American consulate worker in Benghazi. It`s disgraceful that the Obama administration`s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions but to sympathize with those who wage the attacks."

On his timeline of events, Governor Romney chose focused his response toward the domestic campaign rather than foreign diplomacy reiterating the next day, the Romney doctrine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The statement that came from the administration and the embassy is the administration, the statement that came from the administration was a statement which is akin to apology and I think was a severe miscalculation. The statements were inappropriate and in my view, a disgraceful statement on the part of our administration to apologize for American values.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: No apologies here, quite literally. The Romney doctrine is just that. No apologies. No apologies for or from America, period. Without care for the specifics or diplomacy with no foreign policy experience of his own, Romney assembled a team of experts to help him form that simple message. Who has he brought together as the brain trust, 24 experts. The majority came directly out of President George W. Bush`s bullpen. The same team that hit thousands of American caskets as they came home from Iraq. The same team that swore up and down weapons of mass destructions existed in Iraq. The same team that copied and pasted the agenda of the neo-con think tank project for the American century on to a map of the world. It is the same team that doesn`t even have access to the classified briefings yet. The Obama administration is going to start briefing Romney and Paul Ryan next week.

Ultimately, Romney`s statements this week steered the national conversation towards questioning his political savvy, not about the real issues facing national security. And ultimately, his actions did say a lot about what kind of commander in chief he would be.

Romney approached the crisis in Benghazi with the same bravado of his Bain experience. The New Yorker`s Amy Davidson wrote this week. That Romney acted as though all that`s needed for a transformation is a little managerial sleight of hand. This was Mitt Romney`s first chance since accepting the official Republican nomination for president to have a commander in chief moment to show the nation and in fact the world how he would act as head of state. It would be hard to say that he proved that he`s up to the task.

With me is Peter Goodman, executive business editor of "the Huffington Post" and Allison Kilkenny co-host of citizen radio, reporter for "the Nation," civil rights advocate Wade Henderson of the leadership council and Jim Frederick, international editor of "Time" magazine who wrote the magazine story, cover story "the agents of outrage."

Thank you all for being here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good to be here.

HARRIS-PERRY: I want to start with you, Jim. Because my primary feeling was that this was a complicated moment, a difficult moment, Americans, dead in a foreign country on their mission for their country. And it somehow became about politics instead of about any of those issues.

JIM FREDERICK, INTERNATIONAL EDITOR, TIME MAGAZINE: Yes. I mean think it`s pretty clear that Romney didn`t do himself any favor and knocked the national conversation off track. I think the thing we really need to look at is not so much this round of protests. This round of protests is going to blow over. I think what we need to look at are the protests next time and the time after that. Because we`re seeing a real political shift in the Middle East where historically you would have these dictators who would put, you know, these types of protests down, you know, by stepping on people`s next.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right.

FREDERICK: And now you have a new genre of democracy. You have very weak leadership and I mean the whole spectrum of what`s going on in the Middle East changing. So it`s a real genre shift of crisis that`s happening. And Romney`s comment really was insensitive to that kind of genre shift and really painted the situation in black and white.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

FREDERICK: When the spectrum is completely different.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. This point about it no longer being black and white, I wanted to look at these images out of Libya that I found particularly gripping. We`ve seen all of the protests images. But there were also these images saying they stood with and thought of this diplomat as their friend. Chris Stevens was a friend to all Libyans, the idea that Libya apologizes for this moment. And it immediately makes more complex the circumstance.

How do we now, after having dealt with all these years with the Mubarak with the dictator in the position, how do we now move towards dealing with another democracy here?

WADE HENDERSON, THE LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE: Well Melissa, I think you raised a really important point. Romney`s remarks were stunningly inappropriate. And what made them so particularly troubling is that, as you point out, our role in Libya had been as a liberating force. Chris Stevens was highly regarded. I think throughout the Arab spring. We`re seeing the complexity of the transition from autocratic to a more democratic process. And as Jim pointed out, it really is more complicated.

What I found so troubling is that there was also a fraught of desperation on Romney`s comments that seemed to politicize an event that obviously should have been viewed to the diplomatic lens and recognizing that Americans` interests are for March complicated than his statement reflects.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. I want to listen to Romney talking about his own doctrine. I want you to jump in here, Allison. Because he does have a very, you know, he is a business guy and he kind of gives you the sort of business version of how we are going to addressing the issues. Let`s listen to Romney of his own doctrine at a press conference on Wednesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: First confidence in our cause, a recognition at the principles America was based upon are not something we shrink from or apologize for. The second is clarity for our purpose which is that when we have a foreign policy objective, we describe it honestly and clearly to the American people, to Congress and to the people of the world. And number three is resolve in our might. That in those rare circumstances, those rare circumstances where we decide it`s essential for us to apply military might, that we do so with overwhelming force.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So Allison, we`ve got confidence, clarity and resolve.

ALLISON KILKENNY, CO-HOST, CITIZEN RADIO: And our might.

HARRIS-PERRY: And our might.

KILKENNY: Yes. I don`t know what that means. I`m hearing a lot about we have to have justice. We have to show our might. And I`m wondering what that means and I`m concerned particularly when what happened in Libya is being conflated with what`s happening in Egypt and Yemen. And I`m concerned when I hear, you know, this is all because of a video. And certainly, that`s true a lot of the time, but it`s also because food prices are skyrocketing and there are drone strikes. And it`s more complicated than it`s made to seem to the general public. And that always concerns me because I think of what happened before Iraq when that was oversimplified and we were lied to.

So, this is a really precarious time particularly when warships are being dispatched and we`re hearing about marines being sent and drones. So, I think this is a time when we need to pause and not use rhetoric like show our might.

HARRIS-PERRY: This is a really -- I think this was a key point, right? The idea of the video as the match that lights it allows us to go back to this sort of 2001 discourse, why do they hate us? They hate us for our freedom. They hate us because we can make a video about the prophet Mohammed and therefore it sets us off. And it think that`s right, there`s something about that narrative that takes us back more than a decade.

PETER GOODMAN, AUTHOR, PAST DUE: You know, we have already lived through an era where we had a Republican president who had been a governor with no foreign policy experience for whom the world seemed like a cartoon. Where you figured out who the good guys were, who the bad guys were and anybody speaking about democracy had to love Americans because we owned democracy. And that was a disaster. And we are still paying the cost of that disaster.

And what Governor Romney did was reveal himself not only to be unhinged and cynical enough to turn something incredibly important. I mean, we`re talking about the lives of millions of people around the world and the deaths of Americans, you know, in real time and turn that into a venue for the tire some political narrative. But moreover, he revealed himself as uninformed and unconcerned. And he projected that same sense that we got under George W. Bush that things were pretty simple.

HARRIS-PERRY: I mean, is it more uninformed than - I mean, most governors had - you know, President Clinton didn`t have any experience. You know, senator Obama didn`t have much foreign policy experience. That doesn`t necessarily mean that one would be bad on the foreign policy stage. But, is there something in this response that suggests what sort of foreign policy manager, what sort of head of state Romney would be.

FREDERICK: Yes. Because I think he lost the narrative. Because it wasn`t about apologizing which in any statement that I have seen Obama administration didn`t actually apologize for anything and had precious little sympathy for the attackers. I think the larger narrative that I do think the Obama administration appreciates that the Romney administration doesn`t, it`s not actually about the film.

The film is what filmmakers called McGuffin, it could be anything. And if salafists or imams or rabbi rousers (ph) across the Middle East are looking for things to be offended by on the internet today, there is so much stuff worse than that particular video.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right.

FREDERICK: So, it`s a matter of plucking it out of thin air. And that`s why I think that the Obama administration and people who are a little bit more subtle in their thinking appreciate that the narrative has changed in the Middle East and in the Middle East, whether it`s you know, food, water, jobs, shelter, clothing, these protests domestically for countries like Libya and Egypt, they`re political protests by political motivators and activists that are trying to destabilize these branded markers. That is the thing we should be most concerned about.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s the critical thing and we will come back on exactly that question of the subtlety here.

And up next, when you`re the president, you apparently really better know how to deal with Vladimir Putin. More on that of after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: I know the election isn`t over yet. But I`m already going through my favorite Governor Romney greatest hits. Remember this season commander in chief moment from Mitt Romney about Russia?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: This is, without question, our number one geopolitical foe. They fight every cause for the world`s worse actors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: So this week a message from Russia with love. President Vladimir Putin had this to say.

I`m grateful him, that would be Romney, for formulating his stance so clearly. Because he has once again proven the correctness of our approach to missile defense problems and strengthened Russia`s positions on talks on this important and sensitive subject.

OK. That will help our team at the next round of NATO talks. At the table is "Huffington Post" Peter Goodman, Allison Kilkenny of "the Nation," Jim Frederick of "Time" magazine and civil rights advocate "Wade Henderson."

Is he doing damage even from his role as candidate or is this sort of the bluster of the campaign?

FREDERICK: I think it`s hard to say he`s doing damage. Foreign leaders know who the candidate is and who the sitting government is. Is he torpedoing his ability should he become commander in chief? Yes. I mean, you play the Putin quote. But yes, I was in England for the Olympics when Mitt Romney came through. And you know, Britain is the easiest date on the planet.

HARRIS-PERRY: They haven`t been met since 1780.

FREDERICK: And so, for to have the headlines there, you know, say Mitt the twit and have Boris Johnson who is a buffoon in his own right make fun of Mitt as a buffoon is really saying something.

So, you know, is he doing geopolitical damage? I`m not even sure the comments he made about the Middle East crisis necessarily did geopolitical damage because everybody knows who the candidate is and everybody knows who the government is.

HARRIS-PERRY:

FREDERICK: But, he is not doing his election chances or his perception, reputation and stature abroad anything.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. There is " New York Times" CBS news poll that shows that Americans basically reinforces exactly this idea that the president is coming in at about 51 percent on the idea that he`s better at handling foreign policy whereas Romney is down just over a third.

And again, so I think challengers always have that problem vis-a-vis a sitting president. But that, certainly, he`s not doing any favors here. I do want to ask a little bit about whether sort the president`s handling of this Middle East question for a moment. Let`s listen to the president being asked a question about whether or not Egypt is still ally and his response. I thought this was a fascinating part that went underreported a bit this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Would you consider the current Egyptian regime an ally of the United States?

OBAMA: I don`t think that we would consider them an ally, but we don`t consider them an enemy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: All right. So, we certainly know that Mubarak was an ally. And so, this new democracy right in the, you know, aftermath of the uprisings we`re hearing. Not an ally, not an enemy. We saw Morsi respond to this. Was this brilliant or was this a gaffe?

KILKENNY: This is when I get concerned. Because it is like we consider you an ally as long as you behave and you are on the leash. But, the second that you perhaps challenge America power, America`s power, that`s when we start to like, you know, reconsider our relationship.

If I am a poor person in Afghanistan, I`m not too concerned about the faux pas of Mitt Romney or President Obama. I`m concerned, are you going to invade my country? Are you going to send more drones? Are my children lives in danger? So, I think , you know, I don`t want to be presumptuous and speculate about how Afghanis are feeling or anything. But, it just seems like that would be more of a concern than did Mitt Romney make a blooper this week.

HENDERSON: But you know, I don`t consider the president`s remark about Morsi and Egypt to be a gaffe.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right.

HENDERSON: I mean, after all, we provide $1.3 billion annually to the Egyptian government. President Morsi is out of the Muslim brotherhood which should not be seen in hostile terms but obviously is very different than the relationship we have with president Mubarak. I think the jury is still out about how we will ultimately relate to the future of Egypt and I think the president is sending a coded message for president Morsi to hear.

HARRIS-PERRY: And he seems to have heard it because he went from a fairly soft position to a much stronger stance on it.

GOODMAN: It seems to have been a useful bit of diplomacy. I mean, what`s the word ally means?

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

GOODMAN: Ally means that if you get yourself in trouble and you`re attacked, we`ll send Americans to go and involve themselves. Often to the detriment of the people we send and the people who are on the receiving end of troops. So you know, that`s a serious word. And I think the president was effectively saying the world is increasingly complicated. We applauded when democracy swept through your region and we`re pleased to see that larger numbers of people, certainly under Mubarak now get to decide what`s going to happen on a day-to-day basis in Egypt. But the jury is out on whether our values align, whether our interests align.

HARRIS-PERRY: And so, how do we do that? How do we nurture democracy? We have a vision of ourselves at the shining city of - on the hill that set an example for democracy. But in real terms, how do you nurture the aspects of democracy that are the tough parts, the parts that require you to have to listen to people who disagree with you and allow for plurality of religious expression and all of those sorts of things?

HENDERSON: Well, I think first, we have to give great credit to Hillary Clinton. I think she`s been outstanding as secretary of state. And I think she`s managed the Arab spring with great care and sensitivity.

I was in Egypt six months before the revolution. And I know that Mubarak kept a lid on with his military might and power, but also by providing people with bread and food stuffs. And we recognize that things are changing.

Hillary Clinton has set, I think, a wonderful floor for emerging democracies and she wants to embrace them and she sent that signal. I think you have to take that into account as we evaluate where we`re going from here.

FREDERICK: I agree with all of that. I think that now is where the real test starts. After the euphoria of these are all democracies. Democracy is a hard thing to build in a region where there`s no history of having effective ones. And you know, the United States between the declaration of independence, you know, took 13 years to have a fully formed government.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right.

FREDERICK: And now, everything, because of the --

HARRIS-PERRY: Then we had to have a civil war. Right.

FREDERICK: And so I think once the election blows over, once this round of protests blows over, I think that we would be remiss if we didn`t point out that the Obama administration does have to have a lot of introspections and a soul searching about what foreign policies in these areas are going to be like because you know, we just look at Mohammed Morsi and the fine line he`s trying to walk.

HENDERSON: Yes.

FREDERICK: Where on one hand, he is a former member of the Muslim brotherhood. But sitting on his right flag, he has got 25 percent of his parliament is stilled by salafists. And so, you know, he is -- that`s effectively -- it`s a very loose and bad analogy, that`s effectively their tea party.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right.

FREDERICK: And they are pushing the Muslim brotherhood and the entire government (INAUDIBLE). And they are trying to foment these protests because they would like to see the United States relationship destabilized. So, it is really the hard work begins now.

HARRIS-PERRY: That image. We`ll leave this conversation on that image. That of sort of Morsi dealing with his own version of sort of right word poll on that side and then whomever is the president here in the United States, at this moment President Obama managing a right word pull on his flank and this question of can we stay with a complex diplomacy allowing us to move forward a democracy.

Thank you so much for being here today, Jim.

And one thing is clear, Mitt Romney doesn`t want to talk about foreign policy. What he does want to talk about? We`re going to go ahead and have that conversation next.

And later in the show, we`re going to talk with my adviser from college, Dr. Maya Angelo.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: We need to champion small business. We need small business to grow.

OBAMA: We honor the small business people and the scribers, the dreamers, the risk takers.

ROMNEY: I will champion small business and entrepreneurs.

OBAMA: Small business owners. Small business owners. Small business people.

ROMNEY: The last one to be a champion of small business. I want small business to grow. Taking care of business

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, the candidates don`t agree on much right now, but the one thing they`re both obsessed with, small business owners.

According to both campaigns, these small business owners are the backbone of the middle class and the most important demographic in America right now. They are the job creators. Indeed according to the White House national economic council for the past 20 years, two out of three net new jobs have been created by small and new businesses.

So, to find out who the coveted Americans are, we brought them to the studio. Still with me is Peter Goodman of "the Huffington Post" and also now, my new panel of small business owners. Karen Tappin, CEO of Karen`s body beautiful, David Levine, co-founder of Mr. Beans and Eileen Guzza, the president and CEO of Donnelly and more corporation.

It`s so nice to have you all here.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So, I know that you all are not politicians. You`re not political speakers. You are, in fact, small business owners. Start by just telling me very briefly sort of a little bit about what it is that you do, Karen and I`ll ask each of you the same question.

KAREN FINNEY TAPPIN, CEO, PRESIDENT, KAREN`S BODY BEAUTIFUL: OK. Well, what I do is manufacture natural hair bath and body products. So, I have a staff, we mix, we cook all the products from scratch using natural ingredient.

HARRIS-PERRY: You have an actual thing that you sell, right?

TAPPIN: We do.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, when a country where we keep talking about that is over, there`s no longer sort of any opportunity to make things in this country, you are making something, even in an area typically thought of as a service industry, which is the beauty industry.

TAPPIN: That`s correct.

HARRIS-PERRY: How about you, you have actual things that you are doing, David.

DAVID LEVINE, CO-FOUNDER, MR. BEANS: If I show you. So, we invented a line of wireless lights to replace wired lights or be in supplement to wired lights. A $20 or $30 light you install on your own. It has a motion sensor, uses a bright LED and the moment someone walks into a closet or walks up by the side of your house, they go on for 30 seconds and then they go off.

HARRIS-PERRY: I got to tell you, as somebody who lives in a hurricane zone and just lived through hurricane Isaac and had no power for more than a week, the idea of battery lights makes me very happy. So again, like the idea that you are actually producing something and it is something that you invented it yourself. Is that general American entrepreneurial.

LEVINE: There`s a lot of innovation. What I love about is we take input from a lot of different people. We create the innovation. We actually focused on power outages for a while because we got a lot of input that power outages were an issue and created a power outage lighting system. So, yes, it is. I think Americans are the best at innovating and coming up with these ideas. I think this is just one idea.

HARRIS-PERRY: And Eileen, tell me about the work that you do.

EILEEN GUZZA, SMALL BUSINESS OWNER: Well, we are in the placement of high level IT professionals on a contract basis. I started the business back in `97 at 24 years old. I`ve been through trials and tribulations with different things that happened in America, like 9/11 which really had a hard effect on our business. I was keeping all my eggs in one basket, mostly selling to the financial sector on Wall Street. And that was detrimental to the business within the year after 9/11.

But then, you know, through a lot of tenacity and persistence, back in 2003, 2004, started selling to different industries and that has really worked much better. So to all small businesses out there, diversify. The industries you sell to. Absolutely.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, you all are a diverse group of people doing a diverse group of things.

Peter, when you look at this, I feel like when we say small business owner, it`s a little bit like when we say the American worker. And we have a vision of the small business owner that doesn`t necessarily reflect the diversity of folks currently at the table.

GOODMAN: Yes. I think that`s right. I mean, small business is a term to gets thrown around by lots of different people that means all sorts of different things. I mean, if you go and ask Jamie Diamond are you lending to small businesses, oh, yes. Incredibly, you are over your growth. If you start asking him to define small businesses, he`ll back away uncomfortably because they generally don`t lend to these sorts of businesses started by people with, you know, real tangible ideas. I don`t know much about your financing mechanisms yet. But I imagine your own money, you know, your own skin is in the game, who would agree your own credit is on the line.

A lot of small business owners are really depending upon using the value in their home, using credit cards. Tapping friends, neighbors, relatives. And that`s an area that we really have to focus on when we talk about small business.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. So, let me ask you this. We just saw both of candidates saying over and over again. Small business owners, small business owners. When you`re listening to Governor Romney, when you are listening to President Obama, when do you feel like yes, that`s it. That`s exactly what I need my president to do?

TAPPIN: Access to capital.

HARRIS-PERRY: OK.

TAPPIN: Obama, he passed a small business act, sort of the jobs act where he increased the loan limit for SBA loans. So, that was very interesting to me. Because I`ll be applying for SBA loans soon, so as access to capital, corporate taxes. That is something that perks my ears up.

HARRIS-PERRY: OK. We`re going to take a quick break and then come back on exactly that question because David, I understand you did a little survey of some other business owners and that part of that answer was none of them are doing anything for me.

So, we are going to come back on that exactly and ask what is it we need our government to do for our small business owners. That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: So I`m back with my panel of small business owners and Peter Goodman of "the Huffington Post."

OK, for David, you did a little research before you showed up. Talked to some other business owners. What are they saying about this election?

LEVINE: Yes. So, Mr. Beans is one of many companies in Cleveland area that are entrepreneurial community. So, I sent an e-mail to them. I also surveyed a Harvard business school professor. And what we`re hearing is the main thing people concerned about are taxes.

For a small businesses, capital gains tax is so important. It tells you how much you`ll keep if you sell your business at the end. And that`s a big part of why we go in this in the first place. We`re not typically able to grow big salaries as we grow the business.

The second thing is for an investor, if your capital gains tax increases and you are going to keep less of what you get from investing in the early stage business, you`re less likely to do it. There are much better investments of more stable companies out there.

HARRIS-PERRY: OK. So, that is on the agenda for you. It`s the capital gains sector. There are other things that you feel -- I know, you`re at a stage, still relatively early stage in the business.

LEVINE: That`s right.

HARRIS-PERRY: And I -- let me just real quick also ask this. The other thing, though, that I wonder if folks understand. So you are -- you`re producing products. But part of how you`re producing products is using international labor, including labor in China.

LEVINE: That`s right.

HARRIS-PERRY: When you hear, for example, Governor Romney talking about China, does that give you pause one way or another?

LEVINE: It does. Well, I think a lot of us are very skeptical of politicians. You know, I`m not excluded from that.

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure.

LEVINE: It feels to me like Mr. Romney took that stance against China because of his background in outsourcing, he`s trying to prove that he`s much tougher on China. If he got tough on China and the currency was devalued maybe to market forces, who knows, the cost of products 90 percent of what we buy would go up. That would o reduce disposable income by such an amount it would throw the economy off. I`m not an economist.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s pretty good.

LEVINE: I know that for a fact. If you walk into - you know, no one is more frightened about this than Walmart at this moment getting tough on China. So, I don`t know what he`s getting at. I think he did it to position himself. And I think it was a mistake.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, from small business investing to create products that require the cheap labor or the less expensive labor all the way to the Walmarts, you`re saying that this position even with the conversation around taxes gives you some pause and makes you think about what sort of impact that would have.

Part of what I was interested about what you are saying in terms f the post 9/11 moment was this idea that the large geopolitical socioeconomic factors had an impact on you as a small business owner.

As you`re looking at our sort of current context, what are the big issues that are facing you?

GUZZA: Well, I am not a political person. I am a Hispanic woman that owns a small business and whether Democrats, Republicans or independents get in, in November, what I`m interested in, what we`re interested in as small businesses is that they reinforce to the large corporate America fortune 1,000 companies out there that are buyers of whatever good or services we sell, to give us a shot. To give us an opportunity to bid on their - you know, not a handout but to let us participate in the opportunity to sell to them, which is -- it`s difficult when, you know, you`re a small business trying to get the stability with other, you know, I have a lot of competition in my particular industry.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. It`s interesting to hear you talk about competition, also to being a Hispanic woman owning a relatively small woman, sounds to me or it feels me like some of the conversation we hear about what`s good for business, which is deregulation the government out of things. Might actually be problematic for you in that part of what government has done is say you`ve got to give small businesses a shot, you have to give local and minority and women-owned businesses a shot to bid. So, in that context, does government actually help or improve your opportunities?

GUZZA: Well, I urge all small minority women-owned companies, especially in the New York city marketplace, which is where I work and live, to reach out to companies like New York city, MBDA, minority business development agency, run in by (INAUDIBLE) here in New York. These are government-funded or quasi government funded organization. This one in particular is through the department of commerce. And they help you connect with those large corporations that would otherwise probably not look at you as a potential, you know, source.

HARRIS-PERRY: So Peter, yes. This feels to me like we don`t hear this part of how government actually contributes through raising the SBA cap so there`s more capital. Through making sure that minority and local and women owned businesses have opportunities to bid on the big contract.

GOODMAN: I mean, certainly, government plays a decisive role in deciding who gets an opportunity for the businesses out there. But I mean, one of the things I`m curious to hear from you guys at the table is my sense from talking to other business owners is that you`re by and large not sitting and waiting for the government to solve your problems. You`re waiting really for demand to return into the American economy. I mean, there are not enough people in America today who can afford to buy your goods and services. That`s something that government can influence this in a very direct way.

HARRIS-PERRY: I love that issue of demand. I mean, sometimes black hair care is called the recession proof industry because we always have demands. But it`s not, right? What has been your experience on that?

TAPPIN: It`s not. I had a retail store in Brooklyn for eight years. And at the beginning of the recession, shortly after President Obama came into office, a lot of my customers were losing their jobs and getting laid off. So, my business turned into probably about 80 percent in store and the rest online to now being about 90 percent online and, you know, the remaining in store. And so, a lot of customers would say I can`t afford your products anymore, but I`ll be back as soon as I get a job. And I heard that over and over. So, I had to, you know, re-strategize and try to make my products more accessible to a national market. So, that worked out really well for me. But no, black hair care is not recession proof, absolutely not.

HARRIS-PERRY: And actually, let me push on this a little bit. Because sometimes, we hear that the minimum wage, of raising the minimum wage would be horrible for small businesses. But raising the minimum wage would also mean that many of your customers would have a little bit more disposable income. Because many of them are probably themselves sort of based on that minimum wage.

When you think of a minimum wage raise as a small business owner, do you think please don`t do that, because it would increase my cost or do you think that sounds like a good idea because it would give folks a disposable income.

TAPPIN: Well, I agree it`s aid good thing to do, to give folks more disposable income. I pay as way more than minimum wage so it doesn`t bother me. I`m all for helping people and making sure people can have, you know, a good standard of living. So, the minimum wage conversation doesn`t affect me in the way I run my business at all.

HARRIS-PERRY: We`ll talk more about health care and about the other sort of questions that we often here impact small businesses because I want your take on it when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Back with my panel of small business owners.

The name of the Republican national convention is we did build this. It was off to repeat a counter punch to a purposely misconstrued argument made by President Obama. Conservatives are pushing what authors Brian Miller and Mike Lapham called the "self-made myth." This myth asserts that business success is solely the result of individual hard work and sacrifice by one individual. And it isn`t that. The reality is that successful businesses are built together. Individual effort key. But it`s supplemented through taxpayers who pay for schools and roads and laws and institutions and make businesses possible.

Entrepreneurs who decry government interference may not understand how important government investment has been for their own profitability.

Let`s see what my small business owners thing. Self-made myth or built together? When you`ve heard that sort of out there over the course of this campaign, what do you think? Yes, it is just me or we need to be moving together?

TAPPIN: Well, of course, I mean, you need people to help you build your business. It`s insane to think that you did it all by yourself with all the thoughts in your head and you didn`t need experts to kind weigh in on the choices you need to make. I mean, my business partner is my husband. I`ve got lots of consultants and my staff that I rely on to help me make good decisions, and then my customers. There`s a larger team than me and my - me, myself and I. There`s no way that I could build the business I have by myself.

HARRIS-PERRY: And David, one of the things I heard you say is that certainty is part of what`s important. Your sense of uncertainty about what`s going to happen with the capital gains tax and I think potentially what is going to happen with the new health care reform law.

How important is certainty for a small business owner and the government creating that certainty?

LEVINE: I think it`s very important. It depends on the state of your business. I think early stage companies may be less important. But as you`re starting to grow and thinking how do I invest in people and what`s the next step. You know, Bill Sawman (ph), the professor at HVS I talked to he said uncertainty is a form of a tax. It`s a cost down road that prevents you from doing things. Health care is probably the biggest item that I think about right now as the company grows. We`re four employees at Mr. Bean. So, it`s not something that we`re concerned about.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right. So, with four employees, you`re outside of the requirements of it. But I`m thinking, once you get to a certain level, it might, in fact - so, there`s two ways to think about it, right? One is health care and the requirements of providing health care can be a burden. On the other hand, if you are a health care providing small business knowing that everybody has to do, also levels your playing field or is that no?

LEVINE: No. I think it just takes away from the growth. It may not -- if you`re looking at a world where you`re competing with everyone, maybe so. I may not be growing, but my competitor is not growing either.

But, to know what to invest in and how to bring on people and people are the sources of great ideas. I mean, Karen was talking about it. To do that, you need to know what it`s going to cost me to maintain this person. And it was the survey I did, health care for the larger companies that were a little further away, health care is a big reason they`re not growing as aggressively as they normally would.

HARRIS-PERRY: Let me ask this question. If there was one thing that you could hear from Governor Romney or President Obama, what would you want to hear?

GUZZA: I think the current administration has done some great things, like through the small business administration having all this different certifications you can have as a small business need as particularly as a minority woman and how I can sell to the federal market space without -- I wouldn`t be able to. So, that has been a great thing from this administration.

But there`s still a lot of challenges as a small business. And I would like to see corporate taxation perhaps which is I think it`s oscillating around 35 percent currently. If that came down a little bit, I think that I could right now, I`d love to hire another recruiter for the firm. You know I mean, the recruitment is business basically. And I think that if taxation came down a little bit, I could hire more people which in turn, you know, I would be able to go after more business, other industries that I`m not in and therefore, you know, those large corporations that are my customer could also grow and hire more people.

HARRIS-PERRY: I appreciate all of you being here. Corporations may not be people but you all are. I greatly appreciate you being here and sharing your views with us.

So, thank you to Karen and David and Eileen. Peter, you`re going to hang around and stay with us for later.

But, I also want to do a quick update on two stories that we`ve been covering on this show.

Previously, we`ve told you about the ongoing scandal within the U.S. air force. Female recruits charging male instructors with harassment and sexual assault. Incidents stemming from the Lackland air force base in San Antonio, Texas. The air force has just named a woman, Colonel Deborah Liddick to take command of the basic training at Lackland. The base that graduates about 35,000 airmen a year.

Now, while the air force made the appointment without any mention of the charges still under investigation, we salute the colonel`s appointment.

And last week on this program, we also featured Valerie Core, a Sikh American filmmaker whose work focuses on peace and understanding for all people. Valerie has been especially active since the oak creek Sikh temple shooting in August, drawing the attention to hate crimes there.

This coming Wednesday, Illinois senator Dick Durbin will convene a senate sub-committee hearing on hate crimes prompted by the Oak Creek shootings. We can only hope that more conversation brings about more understanding.

We`re always excited when the stories that happen here happen to start moving the things that are happening at home.

And still to come on today`s show, my conversation with Dr. Maya Angelou.

But next, do you know who is celebrating a really big one-year birthday tomorrow? That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Normally for our vault, we dig deep into NBC archival footage to find old clips that we want to show you because we feel they have particular relevance to something happening now.

But this week we dug back only one year. And we were amazed at how this scene already seems a bit like ancient history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Police would not comment on possible injuries and whether excessive force was used. Witnesses say over 50 protesters, some with blood on their face were hauled off by police this afternoon.

CROWD: We are 99 percent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s the rich and there`s the poor. Then there was us.

CROWD: The whole world is watching.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the rich is stepping on our next. They`re trying to squash us down. But this is causing uprising. And we are taking back what is ours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This will only snowball into more political action, political change and a movement that they in these buildings won`t be able to control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, tomorrow marks the one-year anniversary of occupy Wall Street. The movement may not be as visible or audible today but there is a real legacy impacting all of us. And that`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, HOST: Welcome back. I`m Melissa Harris-Perry.

February 2009, just weeks after the inauguration of President Obama, a group of bloggers gathered in Seattle to protest government spending and taxes. Protests grew and April 15th, Tax Day, 2009, ushered in a new movement with an old name -- the Tea Party, with its revolutionary war regalia, American flags and controversial hand lettered signs was born.

What started as protests became a coordinated political action. In 2010, the midterm elections, five Tea Party-supported candidates became U.S. senators, 40 were elected to the House.

They came with a strategy: focus on the deficit and refuse, absolutely refuse. No matter what is at stake, refuse to compromise.

The result? A 2011 standoff on the debt ceiling which brings us to 2012 and the Tea Party is still a major player. A Tea Party-affiliated group, True the Vote, is set to impact this election through efforts to suppress turnout by aggressively challenging voters at the polls.

Now, tomorrow is the anniversary of a different grassroots movement. On September 17th, 2011, young people organized in protest of growing inequality and shrinking opportunity.

Their tactic? Occupy Wall Street, in order to draw attention to the plight of ordinary Americans. Unlike the Tea Party, protests grew and Occupy camps popped up in dozens of American cities.

But few media outlets covered the protest until October 2011. That was when local officials deployed police to end the occupation. Then in the middle of the night on November 15th, under a media blackout, the original Occupy camp in Zuccotti Park was cleared by police in riot gear. At least 70 people were arrested. Property was destroyed, confiscated and discarded.

A pre-dawn raid in California`s Oakland Occupy camp by police in riot gear on November 21st shocked Americans, as did the shameful display of campus police pepper spraying the faces of peaceful Occupy protests at UC-Davis.

So, Occupy was successful in changing the conversation, bringing attention to the 99 percent. But they fielded no candidates, advanced no single unified agenda. We`re seeing Tea Party efforts in play as we head into November 6th.

One year later, where is Occupy?

Harrison Schultz is the anti-market research analyst of the Occupy Wall Street and social media director of the Big Idea Fund; Allison Kilkenny is co-host of "Citizen Radio" and a reporter for "The Nation"; Wade Henderson, the civil rights advocate and president and CEO of the Leadership Conference; and Peter Goodman is the executive business editor at "The Huffington Post".

Thanks for all for being here.

So, Harrison, where are you guys? Tea Party is going to impact this election. They impacted 2010. What is Occupy doing in 2012?

HARRISON SCHULTZ, OCCUPY WALL STREET PARTICIPANT: A lot of things. There`s so much I could possibly talk about. As always, I can only really speak for myself. You get 10 different occupiers in a room, you get 10 different opinions.

But what I`ve been working on is presenting an actual plan to the Occupy movement, to actually wrap in the end the economic crisis and permanently alter capitalism. This is known as the Big Idea Fund.

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, tell me, give me one of the many big ideas.

SCHULTZ: Essentially, we have a new research project. It`s a book called "One Hundred Thirteen Million Markets of One" by Rose Honeywill. As well as -- it was written by a gentleman named Chris Norton, my mentor.

Basically what we found is that Occupy Wall Street likes to look at 99 percent versus 1 percent. One percent owning about 36 percent of the wealth.

You look at things in terms of wealth, that`s fine. But if you look at the problem differently. If you look at it in terms of spending, the issue completely changes. The 1 percent doesn`t drive this economy. The government does not drive this economy. In terms of discretionary spending, they`re only spending about 24 percent.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right, the consumer is driving it.

SCHULTZ: About 4 percent.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right.

SCHULTZ: We`ve discovered that there`s 46 percent of the people in this country that control about 77 percent of all discretionary income. That`s about $3.75 trillion a year. That`s more than Germany makes in a year.

So, we have -- there`s plenty of money in this country. There`s no shortage of money. It`s just in the wrong hands. We don`t really know -- we`re not putting it in the right places.

The Big Idea Fund is about creating the kind of business, creating the whole as an economy that we need in order to fix things.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, Allison, my little lefty spirit is just down with the occupiers. But I -- the very notion of if you put 10 occupiers in a room, you get 10 different ideas, you`ve been covering it as a journalist.

How do we get sort of this passion and these sets of ideas to have the same impact on the players in Washington that we`ve seen from the organized efforts on the right?

ALLISON KILKENNY, WEARECITIZENRADIO.COM: Well, I`m an ally of Occupy. I actually -- I dig the way they do things. So, the remaining outsiders from the political system.

A lot of people are like, why haven`t they run a candidate yet? And the problem is that system of our governance is broken. That`s the whole idea of Occupy. That`s why Occupy it exists at all.

So, I think a mass resistance outside of the political sphere, putting so much pressure on it that it has no other option but to comply with it is the way to go. And Occupy has already had success doing that. I mea, the fact that President Obama has been talking about class in this country. I mean, that`s because of Occupy Wall Street.

So, they`ve already had an effect on it. So, for people who say, like, oh, they haven`t done anything. They were just a bunch of hippies that`s playing drums. It`s like that`s not the case.

SCHULTZ: Not at all.

HARRIS-PERRY: Is it the time to distance -- I`m thinking in the context of the civil right movement, and there came a moment when civil rights sort of -- folks ended up at the Occupy camps. They were saying x okay, yes if you had asked us in `55 what have we accomplished. The answer wouldn`t be much but by `65 we`ve changed this legislation.

Is that what`s happening now?

WADE HENDERSON, THE LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE: Well, I think so. But let me go back for a moment. I think Occupy deserves more credit than we`ve given them.

HARRIS-PERRY: OK. Let`s give them some more love.

HENDERSON: Let`s give them more love. They actually changed the debate in Washington when they emerged. At the time the debate was focused on deficit reduction.

When they came into being, the debate then focused on trying to deal with the needs of people, of poverty, the needs that government had to provide support. I think the debate shifted completely and because of that, the Occupy movement helped stimulate the debate that`s taken place in Washington.

Now, they didn`t field candidate and they probably shouldn`t have. Occupy people, you get 10 in a room, you get 20 different.

(LAUGHTER)

HENDERSON: This is really a lot more complicated.

But having said that, I think they really helped change the debate in the country and I think you`re seeing that play out in this election.

HARRIS-PERRY: You know, it`s interesting. I was reading my "Fortune" magazine, one much my favorite 1 percent pieces, I also like "Vanity Fair" and others.

But there`s an article that speaks, "Stop beating up on the Rich." It pushes back against the whole idea that says, oh, look, part of what Occupy is doing, this kind of class warfare.

But the very idea of asking the question, is it still OK to be rich in America? That is directly a result of Occupy`s discourse.

PETER GOODMAN, HUFFINGTON POST: That`s right. I think we should be giving occupy credit for changing the terms of the debate precisely because -- I mean, Harrison just gave us his youthful analysis. The fact that ultimately, you got to have money in people`s pockets to spend on goods and services to create jobs in America. That is the fundamental problem.

And when we`ve tried to progressively distribute some of the spoils of this economy by having wealthy people in America do what wealthy people do and pretty much every other developed democracy, which is to say pay taxes for goods and services and help people out who are struggling and help generate demand for things when demand is sluggish, we hear -- oh, no, that`s class warfare, you can`t do that. That has effectively bottled up the tax reform that we need.

What Occupy did was say, you want to talk about class warfare. The situation here is that all the spoils are flowing to the 1 percent. We`re the 99 percent.

Now, that said, where we are today is in a position where we ought to be asking Occupy, do you want to do what Ralph Nader did to America and give us George W. Bush? Because whether we think this political process we`ve got is corrupt, whether it`s damaged, dysfunctional, there is a decision before us. And the consequences of that decision are very real.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, I mean, I guess what I`m saying is -- I love all of this. Then I want Occupy, right, tell the other occupiers, right, I want Occupy at the ballot boxes if True the Vote is going to be there suppressing. I want Occupy there registering.

Is it possible for both things to be happening?

SCHULTZ: That`s exactly where it has to go. This is -- it`s great to be outside of the system and protesting. But that`s not revolution. There`s a history of protests that`s been established by people like (INAUDIBLE) and Gandhi.

That`s really the only way we think of protests, stepping outside the system. I mean, there`s other ideas here, more dangerous ideas you could say that you need to Occupy. You need to seize the appropriate means of production. It`s time for us to start owning and occupying our own businesses, our own politics.

So, it`s time to start entering the system and playing the game. Frankly, I fully intend to take a page out of the Tea Party`s playbook. I want to meet Tea Partiers, talk to them, learn how they`ve done it.

A buddy mine was talking about an Occupy/Tea Party reality TV show that they were trying to hijack.

(LAUGHTER)

SCHULTZ: It`s good -- all bets are off this year. The movement is back where it was a year ago. About the same number much people are paying attention to us. The world things we`re burnt out. And they`re wrong. We`re not burnt out.

KILKENNY: The issues haven`t gone away. Occupy is an idea. It`s not dead.

Yes, I mean, I think you really summarized it nicely. But, you know, the students have gone on to do other things. They`re participating in the student debt movement, people working on the foreclosure crisis.

It might not be under the banner of Occupy anymore, but that revolutionary spirit hasn`t gone away because the government hasn`t addressed the problems. I don`t see it either/or thing. I don`t see it as you are either a protesters or you vote.

But you can`t see voting as being an active citizen and a protester. It`s like you can vote but then you have to get out into the streets and protest.

(CROSSTALK)

GOODMAN: Go ahead.

HENDERSON: You really have to underscore the fundamental point here which is that voting is the language of democracy. If you don`t vote, you don`t count.

And what we can`t have are people who see themselves as outside of the system, not having responsibility to vote. That makes a huge difference.

So without getting too wonky, one of the facts that we`re fighting now is the so-called budget sequester, where there`s going to be a huge fight over the debt. That, in part, is because of the Occupy movement having brought this issue to the table and now trying to get the political support needed to work out a better budget deal that affects poor people, doesn`t jam Medicaid, provides relief for Medicare, provides relief for emergency services. All of those things are an important piece of democracy and can only be achieved at the ballot box.

SCHULTZ: I disagree. I fundamentally disagree.

I mean, this new project with the Big Idea Fund. We don`t need government spending. Ryan is talking about four percentage points in spending. We have all the money we need.

It`s just -- it`s going -- there`s no place for it --

HARRIS-PERRY: But you still have to have government to reallocate. All I would say --

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: The one thing I guess I would say, if the vote were not important, no one would be trying to suppress it.

SCHULTZ: That`s not what I`m saying.

But in terms of spending, we have all the money we need. It just needs to be organized better and it`s possible. There are alternative economic models that we`re looking at and talking about.

HENDERSON: No, I don`t disagree, I think.

But here`s the problem. Food stamp policy is determined by budgets. Medicaid policy is determined by budgets. School allocations are determined by state and federal budgets.

All we`re saying, it`s not that we don`t have sufficient money. We`ve got to try to do both. We have to pay for services that are important. We`ve got to try to reduce the deficit. There needs a long-term --

SCHULTZ: Economic elites to do it for us.

HENDERSON: The 46 percent --

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS-PERRY: This is going to keep going in the break. And I totally see that Wade and Harrison are going to immediate to spend some time together.

Harrison, thank you for coming and chatting with us.

The rest are back for more.

Up next, not only is Occupy still around. It turns out men are still around. I know, you`re not shocked are you? But there is a new book suggesting that we`re at the end of men. I`ve got some at the table. Totally sure we`re not over.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: For me, it feels like women have spent this year in the trenches fighting each new political battle in the war on women. But a provocatively new book argues that rumors of women`s demise has been greatly exaggerated. But in fact, it`s the women who are doling out some of the dominance of their own.

In "The End of Men: And the Rise of Women", author Hanna Rosin compiles facts and figures about women`s performance at work, in education and at home. Distills it into the conclusion that girls rule and men, well, they are just trying to keep up. Rosin`s argument for the ascendance of the modern American women begins with the fact that women now earn the majority of college degrees and hold more than half of the jobs in the American workplace.

But she says the good news for women is also accompanied by bad news for men. Jobs in traditionally male-dominated fields like manufacturing were wiped out by the economic downturn and they aren`t coming back. "The End of Men" predicts a future where men find themselves out-earned, out-employed, and out-educated by women, who unable to meet their match may increasingly find themselves happily going it alone.

The author of the book, Hanna Rosin, is joining me today from Washington, D.C.

Nice to have you.

HANNA ROSIN, AUTHOR, "THE END OF MEN": Thank you so much.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, Hanna, eek your book, I read it, and I read the whole thing. I had like so many multiple reactions to it. In part, because it feels like the replacement of women into the marketplace doesn`t necessarily mean that women are in ascendance if they`re working at jobs that don`t pay, for example, a living wage. How is this the end of men?

ROSIN: One thing I think is misunderstood about the book, and maybe the tone is ambivalent, is that this isn`t actually a triumphalist book. This isn`t like we`ve reached this great moment in history and now we take over.

There`s lots of things that are not that great, like when you mentioned women going it alone, I think it`s really, really tough. I mean, if you talk about the statistics on single motherhood and how rapidly it`s increased because people are not getting married. I don`t think anyone thinks that`s a good thing. That`s a tough fate.

So, a lot of this is just happening. But I don`t really take a position on whether it`s terrible or awesome. I think some parts of it are great and some parts of it are really worrisome actually.

HARRIS-PERRY: But let me push on this a little bit. When we frame it as men, sort of male bodies and female bodies, sort of what these men and women are doing, I think part of what we miss is for example masculinity and the power of patriarchy. So, when you talk about, for example, women having more jobs, but then if you look at the political numbers, right, they don`t have more jobs just sort in government, right? If you look at the Supreme Court, the U.S. House of Representative, the U.S. Senate, the White House -- the 100 percent of the White House, that`s all male, you know? Eighty-three percent of the Senate and the House of Representatives, all male.

All I can say is that it hasn`t been going on that long. It`s only been about 40 years. So, you sort of take stock in how amazingly things have shifted.

And most of the book is about dynamics in the household, how this is changing our culture basically. And decisions we make about marriage and decisions we make about, you know, how we raise our children. And those things have really changed so much in a short period of time.

But, you know, you see women rising. But, of course, they have not reached the very top yet. One of the things I do in the book is explain how in this transition moment, when things are so influx, we`re actually still quite uncomfortable with female power. And I talk about that and sort of how women can navigate that new world.

HARRIS-PERRY: So, let me ask you about the sort of decisions. You know, you talk about the decisions we make in our own households and yet the political is part of that, because obviously if we are in war on women, where women`s reproductive rights are being taken away, you`ll get to make decisions, right, if you don`t have access to birth control and termination services?

ROSIN: I actually think of the war on women as the total backlash against the societal shifts that I`m describing. And particularly when we were focusing on contraception. It`s utterly absurd if you think about it, because American families are completely dependent on not just women`s earning power but women`s ambition.

I mean, you have women contributing 42 percent of household income on average. You have a lot of women who are the bread winners in their families. So, the idea that we would revisit the contraception debate is absurd and shows you how people are feeling this new rise in women power and uncomfortable with it.

HARRIS-PERRY: I`m going to take from exactly that point, that idea that maybe the war on women is a response to the end of men. It`s fascinating. It`s certainly provocative. Thank you so much for joining me from Washington, D.C.

ROSIN: Sure.

HARRIS-PERRY: When we come back, I`m going to ask the guys whether or not they are really over. And later, I`m going to talk with the doctor, Dr. Maya Angelou.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Is it really the end of men? It`s time to let some men respond.

With me, Jamie Kilstein, co-host of "Citizen Radio" and he`s also the husband of another one of my guests, Allison Kilkenny, of "The Nation". Yes, they`re together. They`re not over.

HENDERSON: Well, look, Hanna`s title reminds me of a t-shirt I saw a few years ago -- "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."

HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, yes.

HENDERSON: The truth is that, look, that`s a glib take on the progress and status of women today. But it ignores a different reality.

I mean, obviously, we know that women earn, what, 77 cents for every dollar this a man earns. But women single heads of household, those in poverty are almost 29 percent in comparison to 13 percent of male head of households. We can`t even pass in Congress the Violence Against Women Act, which was initiated years ago.

And the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women has been around now for over 30 years. Jimmy Carter signed it. But it`s never been ratified by the Senate.

It speaks to the condition of women from a structural standpoint that shows their access to power is incomplete at best. I think Hanna`s book sort of ignores that.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, it feels to me like a little bit -- like the argument that used to be made about African-American women as matriarchs because they worked at much higher rates than their white female counterparts. But the idea that black women were somehow powerful actors in society was clearly misrepresenting the structure.

(CROSSTALK)

JAMIE KILSTEIN, CITIZEN RADIO: I was just going to say, it`s -- you know, it is one -- you look at so many of the jobs they`re getting, right, like teachers for example. Congratulations, you can teach. You`re on strike in Chicago and you don`t have air conditioning.

Like I guess I`m just afraid -- any progress is good obviously -- but I`m afraid the way like men`s rights activists and people like that will take it, where "UP WITH CHRIS" this morning, they were showing this great chart about from -- awful chart. From the Heritage Foundation about how, poor people have microwaves. What are you using microwaves on your yachts poor people?

I feel like people will react to this the same way. Women can vote now, it`s the end of men. It`s like there`s not going to be competition. We`re all being screwed over by the same people.

KILKENNY: Yes. You know, I`m not to bash Hanna, but I don`t know why it`s presented as this like, yes, this either/or thing. It`s like either the men flourish or they die, you know, like a brutal death.

KILSTEIN: Right. It`s not like when Allison gets a new writing gig, I`m like it`s over for me. We`ll be fine.

GOODMAN: The backdrop that we have to keep in mind, and that`s the vast majority of working people in this country have seen their wages stagnate or decline over the last quarter century plus. So to the degree to which women are doing marginally better in the story than men because the men are the guys who by and large lost construction jobs, manufacturing jobs, that actually paid must have to support a whole family, and the women are now stepping in, often earning, you know, 10 bucks an hour in the service sector economy without health care and struggling, you know, I don`t think this is what Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan had in mind in terms of let`s declare victory.

There are fundamental problems that affect everyone unless you`re the fabulously rich in America.

HARRIS-PERRY: It`s a bit like saying, well, now you have President Obama so racism that`s over. Now we`re in the post-racial moment, right? It feels like well, but wait a minute, there are systems and the systems continue to operate even when some of the new bodies show up in the spaces.

KILSTEIN: It`s one of those things where the bar is so low, you know? It`s like so -- you`re getting closer to equality and that -- we`re celebrating that? Like we should start at equal, men and women should be equal. We shouldn`t be like, oh, women are almost getting something so bye men, you know?

KILKENNY: Yes. The standard gets lowered every time women`s rights are under attack yet again. It`s like, you know --

GOODMAN: I think we`re confusing sometimes adapting to the trauma that most people are experiencing in this economy with self-actualization. I mean, these women at the lower end of the economic spectrum, who are not getting married, who are not taking on another mouth to feed, which is often an unemployed guy who, if he manages to get a job, his wages might get garnished for child support, this woman is not celebrating, by and large, you know, her tremendous independence that she has to support herself and her family by herself because a lot of the men she could choose from in this pool have been put in a position where they can`t earn their way.

That`s not a happy story. That`s a story of serious decline.

HARRIS-PERRY: Let me ask you, because it sounds like there`s a potentially happy story that`s not being allowed to be a happy story, which is what if masculinity is being redefined? Not the end of men, but the end of only valuing men`s economic power. What if, in fact, we now start thinking of -- I mean, so my husband is a lawyer and a civil rights advocate and all those things. But he`s also a great dad. He`s also the best cook in my household and we go very hungry without him.

What happens if we valued those contributions in the household just as much as his paycheck?

HENDERSON: Look, cultural redefinition of masculinity and femininity, that`s all to be supported and celebrated, because it brings about a level of equanimity in the household that we haven`t had previously.

But until women achieve paycheck fairness and until we`re able to adjust the structural inequalities that help suppress women and keep them artificially out of the marketplace and below men, we haven`t really made the progress that I think people here would support.

GOODMAN: Nobody wins if half the population is struggling.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

KILSTEIN: I do like that point, though, that men should take care of the kids, especially if the woman is working.

HARRIS-PERRY: Not baby-sitting if you`re watching your kids.

KILSTEIN: You`re watching your own child.

HARRIS-PERRY: It`s parenting.

KILSTEIN: Yes, it`s like I think you get guys sometimes that like, you know, I think Hanna talks about in her book a guy with his kid like wistfully looking at a construction site. And it`s just like, come on, man, like this is your kid. What am I supposed to be like giving birth now?

It`s just like deal with that. I think that`s OK.

I think that the powerful people in America love playing us against each other, right? Because it`s so much easier to blame a type of person, so much easier to blame an immigrant than it is to blame the entire system of Washington and the jobs program. It`s so much easier to blame, you know, a gay person getting married than actually realize your marriage isn`t great.

HARRIS-PERRY: Let me pause on exactly that. It feels to me like -- it`s interesting to me when this notion about men and women, it`s as though that`s the only kind of relationship there is. Everything is husbands and wives, men and women.

One way to make more men available for marriage is to allow them to marry one another, right? Gay men who want to marry one another.

KILKENNY: Straight couples who don`t want kids like us, like that`s not considered normal, you know? And then, suddenly, we`re not part of the conversation because we`re not parents, you know? So any kind of atypical family model.

KILSTEIN: That`s a really good point. We get that a lot. When are you going to have kids?

I just tell people that I have a medical condition that I can`t.

HARRIS-PERRY: Stop.

(LAUGHTER)

HARRIS-PERRY: Peter is like, oh, my gosh. It feels like I want these things to coexist. I want heterosexual marriage to coexist in a companionate way with marriage equality and gay marriage. I want men who are primary breadwinners to exist with those who are in relationship where they`re not primary breadwinners, like the multiplicity of ways to be male.

HENDERSON: The 21st century models of cultural adaptation and change. And that is progress. Things are changing and our views about normative behavior are different now than they were a few years ago.

I think the points that Allison made about childless couples and I think the points that you have made about the heterosexual model being the primary definition of culture in this country, it`s evolving.

Now, look, we may all want that security of knowing that men will marry women and hopefully procreate and that`s all good stuff. But having said that, it`s the economic and political issues that are at the heart.

GOODMAN: It`s fundamentally an economic book and the fundamental economic story is the decline.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s right. It`s decline for everybody.

Thank you to everybody for being here -- Jamie, Allison, Wade and Peter.

And up next -- novelist, activist, teacher and now, Dr. Maya Angelou is going to share wisdom with Nerdland.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Twenty-one years ago, as an undergraduate at Wake Forest University, I had the honor of being a student in the classroom of an American icon, Dr. Maya Angelou.

And over the course of her 84 years, the little girl born as Marguerite Ann Johnson in St. Louis, Missouri, raised in Stamps, Arkansas, evolved into the global Renaissance woman we all know as Maya Angelou.

She had done it all -- novelist, poet, activist, teacher, singer, dancer, historian, actress, filmmaker, even the first black woman to conduct a streetcar in San Francisco. Her globally acclaimed first memoir, "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" added the life story of a black woman to the (INAUDIBLE) of the great American novel.

In her role at professor at Wake Forest University, she taught courses in literature, democracy, social action and all those who are familiar with her infinitely quotable wisdom can attest, the lessons she has to teach reach far beyond the classroom and into our very lives. And as I found out when I sat down with Dr. Angelou recently, in the living room of her Winston-Salem, North Carolina, home, her wisdom reaches into our understanding of modern-day American politics.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS-PERRY: So it`s been 20 years I think. I took your course as a sophomore here at Wake Forest.

And I remember that one of key lessons was courage. And that courage is the most important virtue.

DR. MAYA ANGELOU, AUTHOR, POET: That`s right.

HARRIS-PERRY: Because without it, nothing else can be practiced consistently.

ANGELOU: That`s right. Your memory is good, by the way.

HARRIS-PERRY: I have said it to myself over and over for 20 years.

When you look at our current world, do we lack courage?

ANGELOU: Yes. We lack courage, particularly because we`re not wise enough to try to educate ourselves so that we really can develop courage.

So we act like cowards. We sit in rooms where people use pejoratives, racial pejoratives or sexual pejoratives. There are people assaulting and beleaguering other people, Mexican, or Arab, or Jewish. We just sit there like numb skulls instead of taking up because whoever is being assailed, that`s you nit wit.

You should say excuse me, just a minute, I won`t sit in this room when people are being assailed. Those are human beings and I`m a human being. And so, I have to pick up for I must support this person.

You say he`s too skinny, fat, thin, stupid, bad teeth. I mean, wait a minute. The statement is I am a human being. Nothing human can be alien to me.

And if you know that, then you have enough -- develop enough courage so that you can stand up for somebody and without -- maybe you don`t know it at the time, but you`re really standing up for yourself. It`s the human in you. It`s the kindness in you which allows you to be courageous.

You develop courage in small ways. You say I will not be called this because I`m a woman. I`m not a B. Because I`m black, I`m not an N. Because I`m an American, I`m not a fool or a murderer. I`m not that.

You have to develop ways so that you can take up for yourself and then you take up for someone else. And so sooner or later, you have enough courage to really stand up for the human race and say I`m a representative.

HARRIS-PERRY: You`ve also always said that words are things.

ANGELOU: Right.

HARRIS-PERRY: They can harm or uplift. When I look at our current political environment, I feel lack of courage, I see us turning our opponents into enemies, and I see us using our words as weapons.

Beyond the partisanship, beyond supporting this candidate or that, is there some lesson for a political world that we can gain?

ANGELOU: I don`t know how we can, after the fact, after the election, how we can look at each other with friendly eyes, having for all intents and purpose cursed each other out and said that this person is not -- this person is a liar, a brute. This person is a fraud. And then the elections will take place and then we have to work together in the House of Representatives or in the Senate or in the supermarket.

I think it`s fair and proper to say -- to explain your point of view and what you hope to achieve. That`s fair. But that doesn`t mean then that -- say of the other person who has another agenda that he`s a brute. Or she`s a terrible word. That`s stupid.

What breaks my heart, Ms. Perry, Dr. Perry, what breaks my heart is to think what would our nation be like if we dared to be intelligent, if we dared to allow our intelligence to dictate our movements, our actions? What would -- can you imagine?

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS-PERRY: Can you imagine?

More from my interview with Dr. Maya Angelou tackling the issue of education is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Now save 50 percent on banners. One of the most memorable lessons taught to me by Dr. Maya Angelou is that words are things, they have power. If that`s true, the words of her name, Maya Angelou, are powerful indeed.

In my talk with her, we talked about the magic of the name Maya Angelou and its ability to give new life to communities and to transform young lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANGELOU: I don`t know that of 40 schools around the country named for me and libraries and homes and things, areas in cities in Portland. In fact, in Harlem, areas named for me. If you name me for Maya Angelou, maybe the people will take it back and oppose their druthers, and the brutes. It`s a blessing to work hard and be given such kudos, such responsibility, such honor.

HARRIS-PERRY: But it`s more than that. That means your name -- you talk about words being things -- your name has actual power. If you name it for you, perhaps people will take it back.

ANGELOU: Yes. What we can do when we have built a name or when we`re building a name or when we`re just starting, the moment we understand -- oh, wait a minute, I can help somebody, just a minute. I can help somebody.

Then you realize that that person that you`re speaking to and speaking of is in your lap, and needs you.

HARRIS-PERRY: There are four schools in Washington, D.C. named for you.

ANGELOU: Yes.

HARRIS-PERRY: It seems like 444 too few. One of them is especially for adjudicated youth.

ANGELOU: That`s right.

HARRIS-PERRY: Why is that important to you?

ANGELOU: It`s so important. When the larger society is saying, you`re nothing. I don`t have to consider you. Then -- they then begin to believe they`re nothing and worth nothing.

And so, they become obese. They become cruel. They become criminal.

They hold up liquor stores. I mean, they risk their lives and so that`s how they can only get into the school, supported or introduced by the probation officer or parole officer.

The children come in. They have to be in school from 8:00 in the morning until 8:00 at night. And 8:00 at night, they don`t want to go home because home may be where the hurt is.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right.

ANGELOU: So they stay in the school and I just tell you wonderful story.

HARRIS-PERRY: OK.

ANGELOU: I went up there, supporting this school, then the two young men, the two lawyers had a contest, how to name the school. I was sitting there. One of the founders said here`s a woman who earned the right to name the school. The young woman got up, she was not looking all that good and she had a piece of paper.

(INAUDIBLE) She said, how are you doing? (INAUDIBLE) telling us to get up, get up. You know, she`s trying to make us do good and, you know, Maya Angelou been down low, she`s down lower than any of us. And now she`s up high. She`s way up over you white people. She`s up over it. I said what?

(LAUGHTER)

ANGELOU: That was 12 years ago.

About four years ago in Philadelphia, a young woman came, she said Dr. Angelou, how are you? I said fine. She said, you don`t remember me.

I said no. She said, my letter won the right to name your first school. I asked, you are -- she told me her name, and I said, what happened to you? She said, well I finished at the Maya Angelou school and then I took my first degree from Howard. And my second from Hampton. And I`m now working on my doctorate at the University of Pennsylvania.

See? This young woman was just waiting to happen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS-PERRY: She was just waiting to happen.

That also perfectly describes exactly how I felt when I first met Dr. Angelou more than 20 years ago. And I am so grateful that she took the time to talk with me this week.

Dr. Angelou and her lessons as a teacher will be on my mind next Sunday. I will be hosting a special edition of this show. It will be a student town hall as part of NBC`s education nation summit live from the New York Public Library in Midtown Manhattan.

To inform and guide this discussion, we will be collecting questions and ideas from students. You can send your ideas via Facebook, on Facebook.com/educationnation. And on Twitter @educationnation.

Also students can upload YouTube videos for a series we`re calling my solution, by going to educationnation.com. Go ahead. And invite the students in your home to do that today. And be sure to tune in next Sunday at 10:00 a.m. Eastern.

And up next, I`m going to tell you what was the most important government program that helped my success.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS-PERRY: Last Monday, I was honored to address students at my alma mater, Wake Forest University.

Many of Wake`s bright, ambitious students ask me about success -- how to achieve it, what tools to use or paths to take. In thinking of how to answer their questions, I was reminded of a simple truth. Hard work is a necessary but insufficient condition for success. You remember the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions from high school chemistry, right?

OK. What`s the equation for water? H20. So hydrogen is necessary for water but it`s not enough. To make water, you also must have a little oxygen. Oxygen is the sufficient condition.

Success is like that. You need hard work, commitment and courage. But you also need help in the investment of others. Help is the oxygen for success, the crucial sufficient condition.

Now, help comes in many forms. If you`re really lucky, you might start off with wealthy parents who provide you access to the best schools, opportunities for cultural enrichment and investment in your entrepreneurial endeavors.

Nearly all Americans get help in other ways too. Government programs benefit nearly every successful American.

Now, when I say government program, you`re probably thinking food stamps and welfare. Those programs are crucial to helping the most vulnerable. But government help comes in many other forms -- the home mortgage interest deduction, subsidized student loans, unemployment insurance, veterans benefits, Medicare, Social Security.

Those are the middle-class safety net. Corporate tax cuts, imminent domain, public stock trading and intellectual property rights are the government programs of the wealthy. No individual of any group is solely responsible for their own success. Everyone receives help.

The roads and bridges we travel towards success are paved by government funds, both literally and figuratively.

The most important government program that provided sufficient oxygen for my success? Extraordinary, committed teachers in the public schools I attended from the day I started kindergarten until I left for college.

As the crisis in public education is on dramatic display in Chicago this week, I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge how much I owe to those men and women, those government workers, who were the oxygen of my success.

Thank you especially to Amy Knight (ph), Roberta Thieg (ph), Valerie Gregory (ph), Mrs. Erickson (ph), and Alan Ramshire (ph). I have not forgotten the difference that you made.

And that is our show for today. Thanks to you at home for watching and a very happy holiday to all of those celebrating the Jewish New Year tonight.

I`ll see you again next Saturday at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. And then on Sunday, our show will be student town hall as part of NBC`s "Education Nation" from the New York Public Library. You do not want to miss that.

Coming up, "WEEKENDS WITH ALEX WITT."

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END

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