If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

I watched this video by an interesting "non-dual" teacher named Bob Harwood that has been floating around the last couple of days at various places.

He seems like a very nice and sincere fellow, and he has had some profound experiences in meditation.

At the same time, the video also speaks of how this flavor of meditation and experience is rather unlike Shikantaza. Like but unlike.

If you watch the first 20 or 25 minutes (he really gets into the experiences after the first 10 minutes of introduction) you will hear of some of his experiences, with the emphasis on extra-ordinary arising of "cosmic consciousness", losing a sense of self identity, pure bliss, total oneness ... with an emphasis on staying that way. One must stay in a state of unity for extended periods that get us away from the ordinary experience of life. Separation and this life are an illusion we must get free from. The emphasis is on something real which lets us escape from the ordinary of this world.

In Shikantaza, we are so "non-dual" that we are totally whole, one and unbroken in times we feel "cosmic consciousness" and times we read a comic book, times when we lose our sense of self and times when we find it (and sometimes both at once), times of pure bliss and time of pure blah and times of pure blues (a Bliss that includes all bliss blues and blah ... i.e., life), total Oneness so One that it does not require us to feel "one" all the time. Rather than escape from this world, we run right into total unity with it. In Shikantaza, one is so "non-dual" that there is no "dual" or "non". Separation and this life are an illusion and thus as real as real can be ... and we are One and Whole even when feeling separate or feeling one and whole. The way to get "free" from life is to need to run no where at all. The emphasis is on something real found right in and beyond (not either/or) this very world ... thus we escape with no place in need of running.

The only thing to avoid is greed anger and ignorance (ignorance = feeling only separation and conflict and friction), because that makes a mess of suffering.

I found myself drawn into watching the whole of the video - Bob Harwood is an engaging speaker and has a nice sense of humor.
But afterwards - and this is so often the case - I couldn't draw anything new or different from what he was saying.

In the main he is saying apprehend the world as a little child - don't get hung up on the structure of language (which is delusary and contributes to our illusory world) - look and listen - but avoid thinking unless it's really necessary.

He talks a lot about 'this' (absolute reality) in distinction to 'I'.

All of the above is fine - but in talking so much about his experiences of 'cosmic consciousness' an element of 'I' ness seemed to intrude and overwhelm what he had to say. I was also confused by his description of Shikantaza - how many of us are sitting in a state of heightened awareness (like we're about to catch a tiger) - dripping in sweat? This isn't what I experience when I tune in to our weekly zazenki - it's not what I observe and its not what I experience.

I haven't had a single experience of 'heightened' cosmic consciousness since practicing shikantaza and that's not what I'm searching for. Just learning to be with what is moment to moment feels reassuringly natural.

I had a different impression of this video. It sounds like his main technique is focusing away from thoughts and more on the senses (sight, sound, touch, etc.). He says that over time, this will lead to a loss of a sense of self. Looking at him and listening to him talk, he doesn't seem lost in the bliss of cosmic consciousness.

I had a different impression of this video. It sounds like his main technique is focusing away from thoughts and more on the senses (sight, sound, touch, etc.). He says that over time, this will lead to a loss of a sense of self. Looking at him and listening to him talk, he doesn't seem lost in the bliss of cosmic consciousness.

Hi Matt - I agree, Harwood doesn't come across as being lost in the bliss of cosmic consciousness. I think in many ways he seems very grounded.

Probably not expressing myself very well but what I was meaning was questions of what defines psychological unity - which is I think a Zen question - aren't necessarily prompted by existential angst or the sense of 'disunity' - non-unification - dualisitic sensibility - that may follow 'mind blowing enlightenment experience'.

Not wanting to detract from Harwoods experiences at all - just pondering on the fact that this doesn't happen for every one, 'many paths up the mountain' as Jundo says.

Yes, he sounds like a very nice fellow and great Teacher of his way. I suppose it also a powerful path for people called that way.

The difference from (same-difference from) Shikantaza is very subtle, but most vital in my view.

In his talk, there is some emphasis on having an other-worldly and extra-ordinary experience where this world of deceptions is shed, Bliss encountered, and Truth is found.

In Shikantaza, we also sometimes (timeless sometimes) have other-worldly and extra-ordinary experiences where this world of deceptions is shed and Truth is found.

However, in Shikantaza, we also have all manner of Facets of the Jewel. No less, this world is not only shed, but simultaneously fully pierced and embraced (and embracing of us and all things). Days of smiles and days of broken hearts are all Bliss beyond small human dreams of bliss or bleak or blues or blah ... whether felt in any single moment as Bliss or not.

The most worldly is encountered as other-worldly, the most ordinary and plain always extra-ordinary. There is nothing to shed, even as we shed the deception and Truth is found in this life-world-self as it is. Seeing through the deception, we encounter the deceptions as Truth when known as such. No need to go anywhere, experience any other state ... for standing here is the heart of the Buddha land. Realizing that Truth of "no place to go" is really getting and arriving somewhere!

How to put it in simple terms?

In one, there is an emphasis on leaping through the door, getting out of this confining, cluttered, dusty house, and finding Truth in the open, boundless outside. One may come back into the house, but continues to meditate in order to be more and more outside.

In our way, we sometimes go through that door, but also find this confining house no less open and boundless, all divisions and dualism of "in" and "out" dropped away, each bit of clutter and dust simultaneously pure and clear, timeless and free.

Something like that.

A subtle difference ... sameness-difference.

I hope everyone can find the beauty and miracle in all of life, even the least inspiring and seemingly ugliest parts ... a Beauty-Miracle transcending and holding all small human value judgments of beautiful and ugly, inspiring and uninspiring, ordinary and incredible.

I think your point is well made no matter how we classify his teaching.

But I do wonder--- especially with the emphasis on the uselessness of zazen--- if zazen, although without a goal, does not change how life is lived. While one goes in and out of the house, so to speak, the experience of being in the house isn't the same as before practice. In some way, there is a change, at least a change in suffering. Or ???

But I do wonder--- especially with the emphasis on the uselessness of zazen--- if zazen, although without a goal, does not change how life is lived. While one goes in and out of the house, so to speak, the experience of being in the house isn't the same as before practice. In some way, there is a change, at least a change in suffering. Or ???

Hi Matt,

By dropping, to the marrow all need for change, Zen Practice radically changes how life is perceived, embodied and lived. I sometimes write about this strange "Catch 22 Koan" like this ...

--------------------------

HOW TO ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT ... by dropping all need and effort to attain enlightenment ...

... thus, enlightenment immediately attained!

It is often said that our Shikantaza way is about "not seeking", being "goalless", abandoning the need and search for "enlightenment" ...

It is also said sometimes that, in "just sitting," we best drop all desire to be peaceful ... happy ... and just allow the world "as it is" (which includes our quite often being anything but feeling peaceful and happy) ...

Butlet me get on my soapbox and makes some things clear, set all straight:

Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?

Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?

Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

Just because we are "not seeking" does not mean we are "not seeking" ... nor that there aren't wondrous marvels thus to find!

Enlightenment!

To the marrow sitting free of seeking ... is a dandy way thus to find that which can only be found by sitting radically free of seeking. Realizing that there is no where to "get to", and no place you can get or need get ... is finally getting somewherethat will revolutionize life, and put your "you" out of a job. One gets very far, one finally arrives ... by sitting still.

Being the "Buddha" all along, and having not a thing about you that is in need of change ... that does not mean you don't have some work to do to realize truly that you are the Buddha without need of change. To realize that you are never, from the outset, in need of change is a VERY BIG CHANGE! There is absolutely nothing about you and the universe (not two) to add or take away, and tasting that there is "nothing to add" is an irreplaceably important addition!

By being "goalless" we hit the goal ... a goal which is hit by being thoroughly goalless.

In seeing the ordinary as sacred ... we find (as Hakuin Zenji wrote) "this earth where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land, and this very body the body of Buddha". This very life is it!

...

"Shikantaza" Zen practice is a radical, to the marrow, dropping of the self's demands that something needs to be attained to make this world "right", that something must be added or removed from our lives to make life complete, that something is defective and needs to be changed., that we need to get some place to find our "True Home".

HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

ALL THAT, even as we continue to move forward, make choices, have preferences ... LIVE! Moving forward, yet as still and unmoving as a mountain or a stone ... having choices and preferences while choices and preferences are fully dropped, and we drop all demands to get somewhere ... living passionately, yet not a prisoner of passions ... at once, the still mountains walking, the stone women dancing ...

We fix what needs to be fixed .. in this world, in our life ... all without thought of something to repair. We clean what needs to be cleaned ... the messes and disasters and filthy oil spills ... yet there is no "clean" or "dirty".

Gassho, Shawn Jakudo Hinton
It all begins when we say, “I”. Everything that follows is illusion.
"Even to speak the word Buddha is dragging in the mud soaking wet; Even to say the word Zen is a total embarrassment."
寂道

Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?

Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?

Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

What's more, this practice lets us be happy, joyful. Who said not? Not me.

Ya really got to pay attention to what is being said. You see:

Just because we are "not seeking" does not mean we are "not seeking" ... nor that there aren't wondrous marvels thus to find!

Enlightenment!

HOWEVER, radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

ALL THAT, even as we continue to move forward, make choices, have preferences ... LIVE! Moving forward, yet as still and unmoving as a mountain or a stone ... having choices and preferences while choices and preferences are fully dropped, and we drop all demands to get somewhere ... living passionately, yet not a prisoner of passions ... at once, the still mountains walking, the stone women dancing ...

We fix what needs to be fixed .. in this world, in our life ... all without thought of something to repair. We clean what needs to be cleaned ... the messes and disasters and filthy oil spills ... yet there is no "clean" or "dirty".

I am very impressed by the intensity of discussion. There are some few things I cannot bring together.
Maybe you have an idea how to do it. It fits a just a little in that thread, but it does not fit anywhere?

So, the idea why I started zazen was to make my life ethical better, calmer, prepar for the end of the day,
somehow there is a wish in me (like in many people I know) to do my best in my life.
The philosophical part of zazen is clear. No goal, no judgements, just sitting, no enlightenment......
Somehow, starting the process, I think about how it goes. And....there is no idea how to give an answer.

So, your comment was exactly why I post my questions here:
What is - if there is - the obvious evidence, that why we do zazen is coming closer?
How can I bring together - the "nice experiences" I have during zazen -
and the overall reason to sit?

I am going to respond to your questions here and on the other thread today ...

Originally Posted by Ernstguitar

Dear Jundo,

I am new in this forum and I needed a lot of time to read all the very good postings in this forum. I also had a few questions, which brought me to your forum. The questions are partly answered, but now I had the feeling that somehow I did not get it yet. If there is no goal and no "what´s next..", if there is no satori, dharma or enlightnment as a orientation, if just sitting is the way and the goal......How can sitting be "wrong" or not so elegant. How can zazen be "not zazen", if I want to decrease stress. If I sit for 30 min two times a day and I do all your instructions.....that is zazen. Or did I miss something? And that leads me to my 2nd question: "Some people go to treatments or sesshins. Whatfore ist that?" I hope, I made clear, what is my point of view. I want to contribute in a positive way in this forum. So, this is a real question. If we are all beginners and there is just zazen or shikantaza, what is wrong with health as intention and what is the "master" doing or the leader of a treatment?

Originally Posted by Ernstguitar

So, the idea why I started zazen was to make my life ethical better, calmer, prepar for the end of the day,
somehow there is a wish in me (like in many people I know) to do my best in my life.
The philosophical part of zazen is clear. No goal, no judgements, just sitting, no enlightenment......
Somehow, starting the process, I think about how it goes. And....there is no idea how to give an answer.

So, your comment was exactly why I post my questions here:
What is - if there is - the obvious evidence, that why we do zazen is coming closer?
How can I bring together - the "nice experiences" I have during zazen -
and the overall reason to sit?

I will try to answer as best I can.

Who said their is no "satori" or "enlightenment" as our orientation? Not me! Of course there is! But some Treasures are found right here all along, by radically giving up the chase after them. In the chase, we miss the obvious ... like the dog who chases his tail ...

As I always write ...

radically dropping, to the marrow all need to attain, add or remove, or change in order to make life right and complete --IS-- A WONDROUS ATTAINMENT, ADDITION and CHANGE TO LIFE! Dropping all need to "get somewhere" is truly finally GETTING SOMEWHERE! The True Home is here and everywhere! Abandoning all need in life's race to cross some finish line over a distant hill, is simply arriving at the finish line which is our every step!

Of course, even though there is "nothing to change" ... that does not mean there is "nothing to change".

Perhaps a fellow sits down to Zazen for the first time who is a violent man, a thief and alcoholic. He hears that “all is Buddha just as it is“, so thinks that Zen practice means “all is a jewel just as it is, so thus maybe I can simply stay that way, just drink and beat my wife and rob strangers“. Well, no, because while a thief and wife-beater is just that … a thief and wife-beater, yet a Buddha nonetheless … still, someone filled with such anger and greed and empty holes to fill in their psyche is not really “at peace with how things are” (or he would not beat and steal and need to self-medicate). In other words, he takes and craves and acts out anger and frustration because he does not truly understand “peace with this life as it is” … because if he did, he would not need to be those violent, punishing ways.

If the angry, violent fellow truly knew “completeness“, truly had “no hole in need of filling“, “nothing lacking” everything “complete just as it is” … well, he simply would not have need to do violence, steal and take drugs to cover his inner pain.

You see … kind of a non-self-fulfilling Catch-22.

Thus, our “goalless sitting” in Zazen is –not– merely sitting on our butts, self-satisfied, feeling that we “just have to sit here and we are Buddha“. Far from it. It is, instead, to-the-marrow dropping of all need and lack. That is very different. Someone’s “just sitting around” doing nothing, going no where, complacent or resigned, giving up, killing time, is not in any way the same as “Just Sitting” practice wherein nothing need be done, with no where that we can go or need go, for all is faced ‘head on’ and energetically as already whole and complete … even while we realize that the choices we make in life have consequences, that how we choose to walk the walk in this life, and the directions we choose to go, do make a difference!

Yes, Buddhism may help you relax, happier and be healthier. But there are times in life that will be stressful, very sad ... and we all get sick, old and die (even the Buddha). What do you do then? True Buddhist Practice allows us to be One and Whole even with all that ... young/old, sick/healthy, peace/crisis, happy day/sad day, etc.

Yes, there is "right and wrong" Zazen. It largely involves transcending "right and wrong".

Thank you, the answer is clearing some thoughts. And yes, I think I got the sesshin issue.
just one point I would like to repeat: What is - if there is - the obvious evidence, that why we do zazen is coming closer?

I do not think, that I want to get health from zazen, and I agree with your example of the alcoholic.
That is a trend also here in Europa to do meditation to relax or to bring the blood-pressure down. It is not how I think about it.
But a good begin, I thought.

Yes, I will try.
The kind of how the blue sky appears and the clouds come is today different then it was the first time.
When thoughts come I can look at them without getting to much in them, I would say, that is one evidence I ment, isn´t it?
Another could be, that I sit down and after some minutes I can be in a "slow motion". That is another one?
But if I sit in the train or in my wonderful garden and with many birds I do not stay in any kind I mentioned above.
I always see something moving or I hear birds or I do not find a place. I said to my partner, that I am not
good still. That is maybe the reason. So, I thought: there is a improvement in a certain way.
I just wanted to ask, if there are some of these evidences...I hope, I could ask it better.

Yes, maybe it is a question of language.
A last example: Muho has said, that he is not sitting so much zazen, becourse he is already able to
do zazen also when he works. That is, what I meant. He has already the ability to do that. So, this sounds like beeing "better".
Also the teacher thing with the video. There is a difference between me (three years sitting) and you as a teacher (xx years sitting)?
That is what I want to ask.

I sometimes say that everything in life is Zazen in its wide meaning ... working in the garden or office, changing the baby diaper. However, only seated Zazen is Zazen ... and thus we sit each day Zazen.

I am not sure when Mujo made that quote about "not sitting so much", because his temple Antaiji is famous for sitting to a number of hours (and little else besides some physical labor ... no lectures, no ceremonies) that even puts most Japanese temples to shame. I actually think it might be "too much" sitting, although to each their own.

I sometimes say that there is no "getting better" in this Practice, yet we get better (Zen folks see things many ways). There is no place to go, and we get someplace. How do you know if it is getting better? You know from you own life (not unlike how someone knows if their marriage is working. You know because you can see).

Is someone sitting three days or three years not as advanced as someone sitting 30 years? Well, the three days person is Buddha, and the 30 year person is 30 year Buddha. There is no place to go, because the whole path from beginning to end is Buddha .... Buddha walking Buddha. Nonetheless, the 30 years person probably has a lot more experience and mastery of the Practice and the Path.

Maybe I can help? Reading these posts it just struck me that maybe Ernst means to ask if there are signs, small noticeable changes in our actions or the perception of things as a direct result of Zazen, we can look for? Signs that the Practice is bearing some noticeable fruit and some measurement of progress can be made?

Quoting Ernst here: "I always see something moving or I hear birds or I do not find a place. I said to my partner, that I am not
good still. That is maybe the reason. So, I thought: there is a improvement in a certain way.
I just wanted to ask, if there are some of these evidences...I hope, I could ask it better."

Maybe I can help? Reading these posts it just struck me that maybe Ernst means to ask if there are signs, small noticeable changes in our actions or the perception of things as a direct result of Zazen, we can look for? Signs that the Practice is bearing some noticeable fruit and some measurement of progress can be made?

I think there are! Oh, even though "Zazen is useless" as Taigu so rightly reminds us, that does not mean that "Zazen is useless"! We Zen folks are always talking out of both sides of our no sided mouth!

I would say the best practical test for this Zen Way is when the "rubber meets the road" in life ... facing illness, the loss of someone we love, sitting in the hospital intensive care unit with my daughter, being in a traffic accident or simply stuck in a traffic jam, dealing with "difficult people", facing a disappointment in life, facing the great earthquake and nuclear disaster here or whatever good or bad weather comes ... etc. etc. ...

... one finds oneself "seeing through" the events more and more to something without conflict and disturbance (even amid the terribleness of the moment) ...

... one finds oneself reacting to things a bit differently, more accepting and yielding (even as we simultaneously might not yield in the least, for we can yield and not yield AT ONCE, AS ONE!) ...

... and I find myself reacting and handing events, seeing them very differently then I might have 30 years ago when I began this Way of No Way.

For me, that is the litmus test in daily life. There is no "payoff" in Zen ... for we realize that the Treasure has been here all along.

Thank you Enkyo, this is very closed to what I mean. And thank you Jundo, this is an answer. I understand your daily life signs.
I just wanted to know the same in the sitting situation.
gassho
Ernst

Here is my "litmus test" for "right Zazen" and "wrong Zazen" ... read the full essay and description at the link, but it closes:

Thus, allowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away any and all thought of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance, and a great sense of balance, insight and brilliance..

Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by thoughts of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance, and a sense of imbalance, cloudiness, greyness.

But as well, even at those times when Zazen feels 'wrong', when there is resistance or imbalance ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is. IT CANNOT BE WRONG. This last point is vital to understanding.

Yes, that is a Koan. Is it clear? Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote.

thank you a lot. I hope, I´ve got it.
There are always doubts in me, sometimes more, sometimes less. I had always the feeling,
that this are the reason, why I want to improve or develop.
Here it is not so helpfull, as I can see.
But to change this patterns is not soo easy.
And the very very details during zazen, what means to be in a samaddhi is not a very big issue for you....
I thought, to know that helps a lot. ......

I will really do it:

Please really really penetrate in your body and mind what I just wrote