There is now a new subforum for our Zen community, the Zen Community Round Table. It's purpose is, "...for sharing specific suggestions and general deliberations on improving and supporting our Zen forums and community."

When I get the time, I'll be moving a number posts in this thread over to a new topic there. That way we can keep this topic just for news about ZFI status. In the mean time, if anyone wants to start a new topic of interest suitable for ZCRT, feel free to jump in and share your thoughts.

way to go Keith, enjoy poking around. We all want and need the same thing in the end. I'd offer, relax around the strange terms that you may hear, listen under... and sooner or later you may see the family. I'm not a scholar but I can follow a bit. My first experience was with dzogchen which I could never see was diff from zen or silent illumination. ofc, the scholars have ideas about that, I guess. I am still in awe of how the names of rinpoches roll off the tongue. I was blessed to arrive on the 3rd day of Namkai Norbu's retreat at Lake Tahoe in 1999.... I barely knew who he was.... until I walked in the woods to the lake.

linda

Mixed forums can be interesting, but it's also a potential double-edged sword when sectarianism raises it's ugly head. You don't have to click too far to find it here, or any other mixed tradition forum. Human beings being human beings. ZFI was a product of that sectarianism, but in the end, I like the vibe of rubbing shoulders with other Dharma brothers and sisters.

As you quite rightly point out, we all want and need the same thing in the end. It also helps that I am a bit more mature these days, and tend not to the sweat the small stuff, or most of the stuff for that matter!

it is so good and nice to see you again, i cant explain.!
unfortunately, i was baned from zfi, due to express tongue and strange words.
i wish i could visit again, but i see friends here, too. love u
keith
linda
meido roshi
dan
i love zfi
bokki

Mixed forums can be interesting, but it's also a potential double-edged sword when sectarianism raises it's ugly head.

Well, as you say: human beings are human beings. But to me there's a difference between displays of sectarianism and triumphalism.

Folks should love their "sects" or traditions. They should think their traditions are the best ones for them. If they don't, they should find another one. This doesn't necessarily negate anyone else's tradition. In other words, I don't mind when people laud their traditions (if it's excessive, I might think they need to get out more, but that's just me).

Triumphalism, on the other hand, is less useful. Many traditions make triumphalist assertions (including Zen), revealing their self-views, cultural and historical contexts, and so on. But here in the cross-tradition melting pot, these things are sometimes wielded unskillfully by people who forget (or didn't ever learn) those contexts...or who forget that the real usefulness of things like vehicle hierarchies is to reveal incompleteness in one's own practice, not that of others.

In any case, I haven't seen much petty triumphalism here lately. I don't see people going into other tradition's threads and slamming them (and don't expect moderators would allow it). If folks do occasionally veer into triumphalist territory but are speaking in the context of their own traditions, and in those tradition's fora, then who cares.

If someone says something revealing an obvious misconception about Zen, I'll sometimes say something if I think it useful (or can't help myself). I expect the same from others if I mess up. If one is ok with those rules, then nothing to worry about.

~ Meido

It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

Mixed forums can be interesting, but it's also a potential double-edged sword when sectarianism raises it's ugly head.

Well, as you say: human beings are human beings. But to me there's a difference between displays of sectarianism and triumphalism.

Folks should love their "sects" or traditions. They should think their traditions are the best ones for them. If they don't, they should find another one. This doesn't necessarily negate anyone else's tradition. In other words, I don't mind when people laud their traditions (if it's excessive, I might think they need to get out more, but that's just me).

A useful distinction.

Triumphalism, on the other hand, is less useful. Many traditions make triumphalist assertions (including Zen), revealing their self-views, cultural and historical contexts, and so on. But here in the cross-tradition melting pot, these things are sometimes wielded less usefully by people who forget (or didn't ever learn) those contexts...or who forget that the real usefulness of things like vehicle hierarchies is to reveal incompleteness in one's own practice, not that of others.

Perhaps hairs are being split, but also useful words.

In any case, I haven't seen much petty triumphalism here lately. I don't see people going into other tradition's threads and slamming them. If folks do occasionally veer into that territory but are speaking in the context of their own traditions, and in those tradition's fora, then who cares.

Absolutely agree. What goes on here pales in comparison to past experiences. But, it's there and yes, it's not important.

If someone says something revealing an obvious misconception about Zen, I'll sometimes say something if I think it useful (or can't help myself). I expect the same from others if I mess up. If one is ok with those rules, then nothing to worry about.

Mixed forums can be interesting, but it's also a potential double-edged sword when sectarianism raises it's ugly head. You don't have to click too far to find it here, or any other mixed tradition forum. Human beings being human beings. ZFI was a product of that sectarianism, but in the end, I like the vibe of rubbing shoulders with other Dharma brothers and sisters.

As you quite rightly point out, we all want and need the same thing in the end. It also helps that I am a bit more mature these days, and tend not to the sweat the small stuff, or most of the stuff for that matter!

We get the sectarian thing here from time to time, but what I hope folks will discover is that the different traditions respect each other's forum boundaries. The one place that is officially for cross-over discussion and debate is the Open Dharma forum.

Rubbing shoulders with/exploring other Dharma traditions can be fruitful and interesting. By shear coincidence, a few days ago I came across two Zen practitioners with connections to Tibetan Buddhism. The first is Anzan Hoshin roshi. From his bio page here, it says,

During the early 1980s, before accepting his own formal students, Roshi also met with various Tibetan Buddhist Teachers of the Nyingma, Gelug, Sakya, Karma Kagyu, Drugpa Kagyu, and Shangpa Kagyu schools in order to better understand how the Dharma was being presented and understood in the West. While mainly comparing Dogen zenji's shikan-taza to Mahamudra (Chagya-chenpo) and Maha-Ati (Dzog-chen), he also received empowerment into various Highest Yoga tantras and completed the commitments for them. He was closest to the late Gelugpa Master, Geshe Khenrab Gajam and presented various classes and commentaries on traditional texts for him and other lamas. Roshi also translated several Mahamudra and Maha-Ati texts with the help of some of these lamas.

Reading his bio, he seems like a really interesting guy. Does anyone know him?

… Later I began to “sit,” teaching myself meditation first at Samyeling Tibetan Centre in Scotland founded by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and then receiving instruction and interviews of great value with the monks at Throssel Hole Priory in Northumberland. One retreat was led by Roshi Jiyu Kennet. In an interview she remarked on the erratic nature of my practice. “One two three four five,” she said “Not one eight three two five!” There was something so total about the way she prostrated before the Buddha that it brought tears to my eyes. I began to understand that wordless teaching could be the most profound.

The teacher I came to love most, even though my contact with him was slight, was Lama Thubten Yeshe. I had attended many Tibetan retreats and taken a number of higher initiations. In Italy the lama was teaching the Five Yogas of Naropa. Really we only got as far as an introduction to Tumo but it was the lama himself who fascinated me. He would go into meditation in front of a huge audience and somehow I felt drawn deeply into a most profound silence. He had a rare almost magical charisma and a way with Westerners that I have never seen equalled in an Asian teacher. From him and other Tibetans I learnt the power of mantra and certain tantric practices that remain a profound resource to which I turn in times of distress.

Eventually, I decided I would like to renew acquaintance with my original love, Chan, in Hong Kong…

well, im soto shu, from the beginning, and will end as such.
but, i love rinzai. and i have respect for all traditions, enlightening, whether Buddhist or not.
one thing i cant understand, tho, is why live words and dharma combat are immediately sanctioned.
also, rinzai is famous for such, as well as many other masters. how come we are silent, and react negatively to any question, disagreement, or provocation?
if a short kyosaku has been broken on your back, cant u sustain a few jokes?
even insults?
is the internet zen going to stay dead scholastic words,
or can we exchange some live words?
even if they seem rough or dumb?

im sorry if this is too much.
but thank you for saying hello.
bokki

ps. big hello to el gatito, friend

Last edited by bokki on Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rubbing shoulders with/exploring other Dharma traditions can be fruitful and interesting. By shear coincidence, a few days ago I came across two Zen practitioners with connections to Tibetan Buddhism. The first is Anzan Hoshin roshi. From his bio page here, it says,

During the early 1980s, before accepting his own formal students, Roshi also met with various Tibetan Buddhist Teachers of the Nyingma, Gelug, Sakya, Karma Kagyu, Drugpa Kagyu, and Shangpa Kagyu schools in order to better understand how the Dharma was being presented and understood in the West. While mainly comparing Dogen zenji's shikan-taza to Mahamudra (Chagya-chenpo) and Maha-Ati (Dzog-chen), he also received empowerment into various Highest Yoga tantras and completed the commitments for them. He was closest to the late Gelugpa Master, Geshe Khenrab Gajam and presented various classes and commentaries on traditional texts for him and other lamas. Roshi also translated several Mahamudra and Maha-Ati texts with the help of some of these lamas.

Reading his bio, he seems like a really interesting guy. Does anyone know him?

I don't know him, but I do know of him and his community. It would be worthwhile to verify, if possible, the claims he has made on his community's website regarding his credentials, as one does when investigating a teacher.

Some of this may be possible at DW. We have at least one accomplished translator of Maha-Ati texts frequenting the forum. It is possible that he may be aware of any translations made by our friend in Ottawa, for example.

Mixed forums can be interesting, but it's also a potential double-edged sword when sectarianism raises it's ugly head. You don't have to click too far to find it here, or any other mixed tradition forum. Human beings being human beings. ZFI was a product of that sectarianism, but in the end, I like the vibe of rubbing shoulders with other Dharma brothers and sisters.

As you quite rightly point out, we all want and need the same thing in the end. It also helps that I am a bit more mature these days, and tend not to the sweat the small stuff, or most of the stuff for that matter!

We get the sectarian thing here from time to time, but what I hope folks will discover is that the different traditions respect each other's forum boundaries. The one place that is officially for cross-over discussion and debate is the Open Dharma forum.

Rubbing shoulders with/exploring other Dharma traditions can be fruitful and interesting. By shear coincidence, a few days ago I came across two Zen practitioners with connections to Tibetan Buddhism. The first is Anzan Hoshin roshi. From his bio page here, it says,

During the early 1980s, before accepting his own formal students, Roshi also met with various Tibetan Buddhist Teachers of the Nyingma, Gelug, Sakya, Karma Kagyu, Drugpa Kagyu, and Shangpa Kagyu schools in order to better understand how the Dharma was being presented and understood in the West. While mainly comparing Dogen zenji's shikan-taza to Mahamudra (Chagya-chenpo) and Maha-Ati (Dzog-chen), he also received empowerment into various Highest Yoga tantras and completed the commitments for them. He was closest to the late Gelugpa Master, Geshe Khenrab Gajam and presented various classes and commentaries on traditional texts for him and other lamas. Roshi also translated several Mahamudra and Maha-Ati texts with the help of some of these lamas.

Reading his bio, he seems like a really interesting guy. Does anyone know him?

… Later I began to “sit,” teaching myself meditation first at Samyeling Tibetan Centre in Scotland founded by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and then receiving instruction and interviews of great value with the monks at Throssel Hole Priory in Northumberland. One retreat was led by Roshi Jiyu Kennet. In an interview she remarked on the erratic nature of my practice. “One two three four five,” she said “Not one eight three two five!” There was something so total about the way she prostrated before the Buddha that it brought tears to my eyes. I began to understand that wordless teaching could be the most profound.

The teacher I came to love most, even though my contact with him was slight, was Lama Thubten Yeshe. I had attended many Tibetan retreats and taken a number of higher initiations. In Italy the lama was teaching the Five Yogas of Naropa. Really we only got as far as an introduction to Tumo but it was the lama himself who fascinated me. He would go into meditation in front of a huge audience and somehow I felt drawn deeply into a most profound silence. He had a rare almost magical charisma and a way with Westerners that I have never seen equalled in an Asian teacher. From him and other Tibetans I learnt the power of mantra and certain tantric practices that remain a profound resource to which I turn in times of distress.

Eventually, I decided I would like to renew acquaintance with my original love, Chan, in Hong Kong…

Cross-pollination can be a good thing.

I hope I have not offended by bringing the subject up. It's worth paying attention to, imho.

A close friend in the Dharma came to Zen from the Tibetan tradition. I often envy folks who have a varied practice background. I hooked up the Kwan Um folks and immediately felt as though I was home. Some twenty five years later, I am still with them. I am a lousy student, but some things just take time.

Mixed forums can be interesting, but it's also a potential double-edged sword when sectarianism raises it's ugly head. You don't have to click too far to find it here, or any other mixed tradition forum. Human beings being human beings. ZFI was a product of that sectarianism, but in the end, I like the vibe of rubbing shoulders with other Dharma brothers and sisters.

I respectfully disagree with one part of your post.

I was a moderator at e-sangha at the time of the ZFI split, and I was among those responsible for moderating the East Asian Buddhism forums. ZFI was created by persons (or rather, two of the persons who were involved with ZFI from the start) who were banned from e-sangha for various reasons that were not to do with sectarianism, but for other reasons that may not have been visible to users (we regularly removed posts from view that broke the rules of the board, for example). As it happened, ZFI went on to become a very useful resource for many people and e-sangha imploded not long after, so here we are.

I'd rather not go into specifics here but I am willing to discuss my perspective on it by PM if anyone cares to rehearse ancient history.

I just bring it up because from where I sat, "sectarianism" or anti-Zen sentiment wasn't really a factor, even though some parties shouted that narrative from the mountaintops of the interwebz.

Mixed forums can be interesting, but it's also a potential double-edged sword when sectarianism raises it's ugly head. You don't have to click too far to find it here, or any other mixed tradition forum. Human beings being human beings. ZFI was a product of that sectarianism, but in the end, I like the vibe of rubbing shoulders with other Dharma brothers and sisters.

I respectfully disagree with one part of your post.

I was a moderator at e-sangha at the time of the ZFI split, and I was among those responsible for moderating the East Asian Buddhism forums. ZFI was created by persons (or rather, two of the persons who were involved with ZFI from the start) who were banned from e-sangha for various reasons that were not to do with sectarianism, but for other reasons that may not have been visible to users (we regularly removed posts from view that broke the rules of the board, for example). As it happened, ZFI went on to become a very useful resource for many people and e-sangha imploded not long after, so here we are.

I'd rather not go into specifics here but I am willing to discuss my perspective on it by PM if anyone cares to rehearse ancient history.

I just bring it up because from where I sat, "sectarianism" or anti-Zen sentiment wasn't really a factor, even though some parties shouted that narrative from the mountaintops of the interwebz.

Hmm....well, I suppose we can agree to disagree. I do agree that it isn't useful to bring up all that history. But, I was a member then, and I know what I saw. It's certainly water under the bridge, but there are scars. To be fair, I know there was some back room stuff with one guy in particular, but it was a very sordid period, with crap behavior on both sides.

huh this is way over my head - but i agree its hard to change from a tradition you feel deeply about. When i was drawn into Thich Nhat Hanh's Community of Mindful Living in 1999-2002, it was very slow and deliberate. The sitting meditation style suited me too. But when i moved to DC in 2005 i was too slow to adapt, because of precisely this inclination to stay put with it and hold fast to a tradition. But the CML sangha never met when i was available, with my job here. So now (2017) i'm migrating to a whole new part of the Zen universe - Japanese Zen - because theres a zendo that meets when i can go. Because if i dont have sangha in real life, i wont survive. The sitting is more challenging - i'm 65 now - but i think i can manage it with some adaptation. TNH draws a great deal from Theravada as well as Indian Buddhism, my former sitting was similar to Samatha Bhavana actually, this shikantaza is different but i'm beginnging to feel this transition is part of a continuum. People at ZFI told me get a teacher, get a sangha. I understand that advice, i'll do what i can. I'm reminded that sometimes people have both and are inflexible, resistant to change. But i was never one to count the number of years i sat in one place anyway. Teachers are where you find them, and one must be open to teaching.

huh this is way over my head - but i agree its hard to change from a tradition you feel deeply about. When i was drawn into Thich Nhat Hanh's Community of Mindful Living in 1999-2002, it was very slow and deliberate. The sitting meditation style suited me too. But when i moved to DC in 2005 i was too slow to adapt, because of precisely this inclination to stay put with it and hold fast to a tradition. But the CML sangha never met when i was available, with my job here. So now (2017) i'm migrating to a whole new part of the Zen universe - Japanese Zen - because theres a zendo that meets when i can go. Because if i dont have sangha in real life, i wont survive. The sitting is more challenging - i'm 65 now - but i think i can manage it with some adaptation. TNH draws a great deal from Theravada as well as Indian Buddhism, my former sitting was similar to Samatha Bhavana actually, this shikantaza is different but i'm beginnging to feel this transition is part of a continuum. People at ZFI told me get a teacher, get a sangha. I understand that advice, i'll do what i can. I'm reminded that sometimes people have both and are inflexible, resistant to change. But i was never one to count the number of years i sat in one place anyway. Teachers are where you find them, and one must be open to teaching.

Not sure if you are close, but have you checked out the Potomac Zen folks?
I don't know a whole lot about them, but maybe it would be worth a visit.

Hmm....well, I suppose we can agree to disagree. I do agree that it isn't useful to bring up all that history. But, I was a member then, and I know what I saw. It's certainly water under the bridge, but there are scars. To be fair, I know there was some back room stuff with one guy in particular, but it was a very sordid period, with crap behavior on both sides.

Onward and upward!

Thank you for this response.

I need to make two clarifications for posterity's sake, and for the sake of clarity:

I should add first that I had a deep and abiding respect for one of the two people I spoke of in my earlier post. He struck me as a well-meaning soul who was perhaps not well prepared for online life, was aging and in poor health and therefore not in full possession of his faculties, and was inadvertently taken for a ride by the other of the two, who has a long and colorful history of online histrionics to the present. The former individual, I felt profoundly sorry for. The latter we would get to know even better as time went on at DharmaWheel, as would our friends at ZFI. The same behavior patterns. Samsara has a tendency to repeat itself, again and again, over and over. That's why they call it "rebirth," you know.

Second: there were and are more than two sides. Part of the problem was actually in disagreement on what English words mean in a Dharma (words like "monk" believe it or not), and what Dogen actually taught as compared to what some contemporary Soto Zen teachers present. It was unfortunate that it couldn't have unfolded in slower motion, where these points of divergence could have been reflected on and respected with more care. An opportunity to really learn was lost, but who needs learning when you have outrage porn?

I'll let that be my last word on the subject for the purpose of this thread. If anyone wants to discuss this aspect of the story further, let's do so elsewhere.

huh this is way over my head - but i agree its hard to change from a tradition you feel deeply about. When i was drawn into Thich Nhat Hanh's Community of Mindful Living in 1999-2002, it was very slow and deliberate. The sitting meditation style suited me too. But when i moved to DC in 2005 i was too slow to adapt, because of precisely this inclination to stay put with it and hold fast to a tradition. But the CML sangha never met when i was available, with my job here. So now (2017) i'm migrating to a whole new part of the Zen universe - Japanese Zen - because theres a zendo that meets when i can go. Because if i dont have sangha in real life, i wont survive. The sitting is more challenging - i'm 65 now - but i think i can manage it with some adaptation. TNH draws a great deal from Theravada as well as Indian Buddhism, my former sitting was similar to Samatha Bhavana actually, this shikantaza is different but i'm beginnging to feel this transition is part of a continuum. People at ZFI told me get a teacher, get a sangha. I understand that advice, i'll do what i can. I'm reminded that sometimes people have both and are inflexible, resistant to change. But i was never one to count the number of years i sat in one place anyway. Teachers are where you find them, and one must be open to teaching.

There's a Mindful Living group in NoVA. You'll need to drive a bit if you are in Alexandria, as it's in Vienna.

Earth Sangha. Also meeting in the same yoga shop as the Tendai group and the Soto group that had been meeting in the cafe on Mt Vernon Avenue in Del Ray. Earth Sangha could be a good fit for you as their presentation of the teachings aligns well with how Thich Nhat Hanh does things. They plant trees and things, which is lovely.

Hmm....well, I suppose we can agree to disagree. I do agree that it isn't useful to bring up all that history. But, I was a member then, and I know what I saw. It's certainly water under the bridge, but there are scars. To be fair, I know there was some back room stuff with one guy in particular, but it was a very sordid period, with crap behavior on both sides.

Onward and upward!

Thank you for this response.

I need to make two clarifications for posterity's sake, and for the sake of clarity:

I should add first that I had a deep and abiding respect for one of the two people I spoke of in my earlier post. He struck me as a well-meaning soul who was perhaps not well prepared for online life, was aging and in poor health and therefore not in full possession of his faculties, and was inadvertently taken for a ride by the other of the two, who has a long and colorful history of online histrionics to the present. The former individual, I felt profoundly sorry for. The latter we would get to know even better as time went on at DharmaWheel, as would our friends at ZFI. The same behavior patterns. Samsara has a tendency to repeat itself, again and again, over and over. That's why they call it "rebirth," you know.

Second: there were and are more than two sides. Part of the problem was actually in disagreement on what English words mean in a Dharma (words like "monk" believe it or not), and what Dogen actually taught as compared to what some contemporary Soto Zen teachers present. It was unfortunate that it couldn't have unfolded in slower motion, where these points of divergence could have been reflected on and respected with more care. An opportunity to really learn was lost, but who needs learning when you have outrage porn?

I'll let that be my last word on the subject for the purpose of this thread. If anyone wants to discuss this aspect of the story further, let's do so elsewhere.

Thanks. I realize I am being a stick in the mud. Clearly, I have unresolved issues! I just remember feeling kind of blown away about how badly we were treated.

I have so much more to unload, but best to just let it go. I am new here and you DW folks have been most kind in welcoming us. I appreciate the clarifications you have offered.

..... Teachers are where you find them, and one must be open to teaching.

lovely sharing by all about teachers and crossing boundaries in traditions. ofc, I've heard a bit of heartache, but I carry no baggage/knowledge from past happenings. others do. Beyond all these considerations, cautions and distinctions, it seems to me that the time is ripe to see thru, the time is ripe to rub shoulders with our brothers and sisters to the extent that we can, learn from it, and see what is possible. Looking ahead, for whatever duration, consider this.... who would ever think that one forum could unite with another?? (by duration, I mean, it appears that zfi will not be fixed but I can't rule that out either.) and, ofc, it's only a few ppl here uniting with this forum.... but the spirit of that is not to be overlooked. There is no one size for everyone... just look at the experiences described above. we all have our own paths not necessarily of our choosing.

I have walked straight on the crooked road and it led me thru experiences with many traditions, sometimes with teachers long dead. little did I know who they were til long after. I could best manage a practice in the neighborhood which led me to zen, somehow I stumbled into other practices in other traditions, Dzogchen, Chan, Tibetan and Bon, and feel comfortable there as well. The exposure is invaluable to me. I made a policy for myself, not to share my experiences outside traditions, not to compare... that was easy bec it was more similar than not to me. It's hard to look under the surface and pull out a lot of difference. (ofc, I'm not a scholar). Perhaps it helps to live in the Bay Area where we are all so close, and collaboration and friendships cross these distinctions easily. I'm much to naive to care about credentials... it's about resonance for me. It transcends traditions, dead or alive. for others, guidance and credentials may be useful and important. One moonlite night in Idaho 20 years ago, my spirit friend for life said to me.... "you never know a person til you walk in their shoes"... I led. He was half my age, we didn't know the way down the mountain in the moonlight, step by step into a pasture with two horses who came over to commune with us.