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I think this topic will be argued and will create many opinions regarding it. But, until there is an ultimate authority on what is or isn't internal power, because it is a subjective term, it will be a term of debate. It will be right up there with all similar debates of religion and God.

All due respect, you are wrong Mr. Burgess.
This topic has never once been successfully argued or disputed - in person- by any aikido teacher I have ever met. Why, because they have nothing to offer in a physical debate against “IT.” I.T. is so startling and so obvious in person that it is inescapable and absolute; upon meeting, without fail, all debate-ENDS. It isn't a "conversation" -no matter how it may first appear or how you perceive it on the web.
You will only continue to think so until you meet a man who knows his business and engages you. I'm not much into ki tricks-though I can do them, or wrist grabs and waza which I know....in spades. In person, I choose to either spar, or fight- if there is any doubt as to just who has IT and can actually do aiki. Why? “IT” has a marked tendency to unplug people’s ears and then a real conversation and partnership can unfold.

It is worth noting that the teachers in your art that I have trained with are so convinced of IT-that they will never go back to doing Aikido™ ever again. They simply do not want to. Why, because “IT”- makes the aiki in Aikido™ work. IT is the aiki that the Japanese either did not know or cannot or will not teach. As I stated earlier, personally I don’t give a damn about the Japanese anymore. I wrote them off. We are going to put it back in the aiki arts and let them deal with us later when they can’t do anything to us.
For now, it is clear enough that an ever growing number of Aikido teachers are finally training aiki and they now want to do Aiki...do (the way of aiki) and have all but turned their backs on Aikido™ as we know it.

In light of that, why would I want to continue to debate it with you or anyone else here- when your own shihans and other senior teachers are making the shift- every time they feel it? What I read here is those who have absolutely nothing to offer in the debate. So for me, it becomes a game of trying to be polite and avoiding being so direct that is painful. But in the end it is what it is. In other words; you can't do it -therefore your opinion of I.T. is all but meaningless to those in Aikido who have gone out and met those with IT.

Remember this post and your opinions today, because Aikido™ is never going to go back to the way it was. Not ever. It is going to be replaced with Aiki...do. Anyone who doesn't choose to train aiki is making themselves dinosaurs. In the future no one will mistake them for competent aikiodists.
And an ever increasing number of -you- consider that a good thing….one by one by one.
Cheers
Dan

The point is he knows how guys with internal skill feel like and feeling Erick, ...

FWIW, "your guy" is not backing you up in whatever you took his opinion to be. I won't drag him in, either, as we had a cordial training session and remain on good terms, and would love to have him back when he is down our way. We have a number of newbs and he was very good and patient with them in a smaller than usual class -- a quality I greatly respect. We did not get together to have the physical debate you want to have happened -- we all just -- trained...

Your enthusiasm is great. I truly hope it sees you through whatever training you are finding of value. I perceive there to be great value to be had in all three of the approaches mentioned -- I just do not find it as uniquely precious or revolutionary as some assume.

For which reason I think that specific criticism (Russ's videos? Anyone? ... Buehler? ... Buehler? ) would go much further to improve the level of discussion. I make no claims of relative comparison with anyone, I simply state what I can see and what I know to be true and useful. Which makes me more careful than some with my words -- not incompetent in my actions... As to relative power, testicular weight, IQ or whatever other measure of alpha dominance one might posit -- I concede without contest, or admission, -- because I am not fighting on that ground -- in fact, I am not fighting -- at all.

Mr. Mead, what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
-Principal from Billy Madison

Yes, someone addressing the vids I've posted would be helpful....at least it would be helpful to me.....

Thanks in advance,

Russ

Russ:

Two of those video clips are of Ushiro Sensei, a man I know quite well (in those clips as well). I am not quite sure what you want to know about those clips. I frankly operate as an empiricist. Instead of simply commenting on video clips of people, I like to reserve my judgment until I have worked with them.

Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo in Bedford Hills, New York on October 24 & 25. Some posters on this site will be in attendance. I simply think that you need to experience what the person has to offer first before passing judgment of what people think that they can see from video clips and other sources. For the record, I train under Ushiro Sensei and have just begun to work with Dan Harden.

Thanks for your response. I've heard nothing but good things about Ushiro sensei from George Ledyard sensei (who comes to visit a local dojo here twice a year here). I think Don Angier's movement (while it could be argued he is simply demonstrating) speaks for itself...as does Ushiro sensei's in my book. I am not making any judgements. I put the videos out there so everyone who is interested may view them and then, perhaps, folks with some experience training IT would comment on whether Angier and Ushiro sensei's are demonstrating IT or not (and why they think that....) Perhaps it's something that cannot be written or spoken about and must be felt....I certainly wouldn't think that strange...but it would leave me wondering, if that's the case, what the point of IT threads would be...

I wish you success in your seminar and sincerely hope you post some video at some point. Do you have a dojo website?

Mr. Mead, what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
-Principal from Billy Madison

Sorry...I couldn't resist

I just LOVE quotes out of context: Billy not only scores his third grade teacher, he ALSO gets the hotel chain. So I'll take that money ... Or to finish the scene:

Thanks for your response. I've heard nothing but good things about Ushiro sensei from George Ledyard sensei (who comes to visit a local dojo here twice a year here). I think Don Angier's movement (while it could be argued he is simply demonstrating) speaks for itself...as does Ushiro sensei's in my book. I am not making any judgements. I put the videos out there so everyone who is interested may view them and then, perhaps, folks with some experience training IT would comment on whether Angier and Ushiro sensei's are demonstrating IT or not (and why they think that....) Perhaps it's something that cannot be written or spoken about and must be felt....I certainly wouldn't think that strange...but it would leave me wondering, if that's the case, what the point of IT threads would be...

I wish you success in your seminar and sincerely hope you post some video at some point. Do you have a dojo website?

Cheers,

Russ

Russ:

Dan Harden put it quite succinctly, and that is until you feel it, you really do not have a legitimate starting place. As he puts it, you don't know what you don't know. When you feel it, then you can begin to see how much work we have to really "right the ship."

All due respect, you are wrong Mr. Burgess.
This topic has never once been successfully argued or disputed - in person- by any aikido teacher I have ever met. Why, because they have nothing to offer in a physical debate against "IT." I.T. is so startling and so obvious in person that it is inescapable and absolute; upon meeting, without fail, all debate-ENDS. It isn't a "conversation" -no matter how it may first appear or how you perceive it on the web.
You will only continue to think so until you meet a man who knows his business and engages you. I'm not much into ki tricks-though I can do them, or wrist grabs and waza which I know....in spades. In person, I choose to either spar, or fight- if there is any doubt as to just who has IT and can actually do aiki. Why? "IT" has a marked tendency to unplug people's ears and then a real conversation and partnership can unfold.

It is worth noting that the teachers in your art that I have trained with are so convinced of IT-that they will never go back to doing Aikido™ ever again. They simply do not want to. Why, because "IT"- makes the aiki in Aikido™ work. IT is the aiki that the Japanese either did not know or cannot or will not teach. As I stated earlier, personally I don't give a damn about the Japanese anymore. I wrote them off. We are going to put it back in the aiki arts and let them deal with us later when they can't do anything to us.
For now, it is clear enough that an ever growing number of Aikido teachers are finally training aiki and they now want to do Aiki...do (the way of aiki) and have all but turned their backs on Aikido™ as we know it.

In light of that, why would I want to continue to debate it with you or anyone else here- when your own shihans and other senior teachers are making the shift- every time they feel it? What I read here is those who have absolutely nothing to offer in the debate. So for me, it becomes a game of trying to be polite and avoiding being so direct that is painful. But in the end it is what it is. In other words; you can't do it -therefore your opinion of I.T. is all but meaningless to those in Aikido who have gone out and met those with IT.

Remember this post and your opinions today, because Aikido™ is never going to go back to the way it was. Not ever. It is going to be replaced with Aiki...do. Anyone who doesn't choose to train aiki is making themselves dinosaurs. In the future no one will mistake them for competent aikiodists.
And an ever increasing number of -you- consider that a good thing….one by one by one.
Cheers
Dan

Dan,

Ahhh...no one is wrong, it's just a matter of differing opinions, and perspective.

You say Aikido fails and I say, no, the person does. I feel there where deshi of O'Sensei who had great skill, and your criticisms of Aikido don't apply. I say the skill sets are there, the principles are there, the internal power (to borrow a term you use) is there all with in Aikido.

And it isn't up to me to judge whether a Shihan (now or later in their lives) measures up to your criticism or not. It's not my thing to do that.

It is a matter of what we want and where we want to go, and who we want to follow, and who we want to follow us.

I guess what I am saying is I have never experienced all the shihan's abilities. I can't judge them for that, and because I am not an expert in Aikido, thus unable to judge their skill; what they have or what they don't have. Plus, I don't have the ability to measure or critique principles of one style up against another. To do that I would have to master all the styles I wish to critique.

Aikido has a spiritual nature as described by O'Sensei and that is what is more of Aikido then the single angle of application of defeating another with internal power/ki/chi.

I am not saying the pursuit of power (internal power) isn't good, I am saying there is more than just that. That internal power has a variety of definitions and applications with many perspectives and approaches, yet all come from the same principles.

Hi Phillip
I am not sure what you are saying. I think it is ok if you don't understand what aiki is and how it applies to aikido most of us are in the same boat.There are some shihans in aikido that have a certain degree of aiki but from Dan's view point it is not that profound. If you meet Dan it will become clear.

We see in Chinese arts how internal power is used, and then we see how O'Sensei, and others use their internal power that has different results.

There is not perfect art, each art has its strengths and weakness, especially on how it is apply, and not everyone applies it the same or looks at it the same, or uses it the same. There is no art that has only strengths and no weaknesses. Some arts use the same principles packaged differently to shove people across a room, to fight from the ground, to throw, and others who focus on countering, some defensive only, other offensive, some use both. It is like using the same limited ingredients to get a variety of the same dish, with different chefs adding their style to the dish. I am thinking pizza for example. That is what I am saying about internal power.

Some people apply principles better then others, and for every person good at it, there is someone out there better. Not everyone is equal. You have your talented and those who don't get very far. There are a few who make it to the top in skill and understanding, like any field does. Not everyone is or can be a "star."

This is how I look at it. I don't see why there has to be harsh criticism made toward Aikido. Maybe because it is the benchmark, it is the gold standard? Maybe it is the guy everyone wants to beat. Isn't that who you'd want to study from, the gun slinger everyone is gunning for. Who wants to study from the challengers? You want to study from the guy everyone is gunning for.

Aikido offers other things beside just physical skill, there are other dimensions to Aikido. We live in a society, a world, where old combat ways have given way to modern combat, and weapons, and law, and police, and all those things that make martial arts, arts. Because of that there are arts, and people seek them out for a variety of reasons and not all for combatative reasons. If society and the world was different just as in the past, the sole reason to learn to fight and develop "internal power" is because that was the most powerful thing. There was nothing else than, no modern weapons, no laws and all that. So the top of the heap was what we know now is martial arts.

So may be a better measurement of martial arts would be their complexity, intricacies, and that kind of stuff. Because martial arts, most of which are like Aikido and have other sides and philosophies to them. It’s ok to measure them on a single angle, but that only gives us a small slice of what an art is and can do or be.

Hi Phillip
I am not sure what you are saying. I think it is ok if you don't understand what aiki is and how it applies to aikido most of us are in the same boat.There are some shihans in aikido that have a certain degree of aiki but from Dan's view point it is not that profound. If you meet Dan it will become clear.

stan

Stan, I am not questioning Dan's ability or making assessments, or critiques as Dan did in the post I quoted him. Dan's view point is his own. Just as mine is for me. I agree and disagree with him and said why. So your right I haven't trained with him, and thus, I don' t make criticisms of his skills, what he does and all that. I am not an expert in all things to do so. I can only give you is an evaluation of what I would think of the experience and my personal opinion of "internal power, and IT. Now moreover, I disagree or agree with at times is his statements, his opinions, his viewpoints and perspectives. One thing too, is I feel is he is too strong and insulting, at times, in his posts toward Aikido. But....whatcha going to do?

Ahhh...no one is wrong, it's just a matter of differing opinions, and perspective.

You say Aikido fails and I say, no, the person does. I feel there where deshi of O'Sensei who had great skill, and your criticisms of Aikido don't apply. I say the skill sets are there, the principles are there, the internal power (to borrow a term you use) is there all with in Aikido.

And it isn't up to me to judge whether a Shihan (now or later in their lives) measures up to your criticism or not. It's not my thing to do that.

It is a matter of what we want and where we want to go, and who we want to follow, and who we want to follow us.

So what exactly do you want, where exactly do you want to go,and who do you want to follow and why on earth would anyone want to follow you?

We see in Chinese arts how internal power is used, and then we see how O'Sensei, and others use their internal power that has different results.

There is not perfect art, each art has its strengths and weakness, especially on how it is apply, and not everyone applies it the same or looks at it the same, or uses it the same. There is no art that has only strengths and no weaknesses. Some arts use the same principles packaged differently to shove people across a room, to fight from the ground, to throw, and others who focus on countering, some defensive only, other offensive, some use both. It is like using the same limited ingredients to get a variety of the same dish, with different chefs adding their style to the dish. I am thinking pizza for example. That is what I am saying about internal power.

Some people apply principles better then others, and for every person good at it, there is someone out there better. Not everyone is equal. You have your talented and those who don't get very far. There are a few who make it to the top in skill and understanding, like any field does. Not everyone is or can be a "star."

This is how I look at it. I don't see why there has to be harsh criticism made toward Aikido. Maybe because it is the benchmark, it is the gold standard? Maybe it is the guy everyone wants to beat. Isn't that who you'd want to study from, the gun slinger everyone is gunning for. Who wants to study from the challengers? You want to study from the guy everyone is gunning for.

Aikido offers other things beside just physical skill, there are other dimensions to Aikido. We live in a society, a world, where old combat ways have given way to modern combat, and weapons, and law, and police, and all those things that make martial arts, arts. Because of that there are arts, and people seek them out for a variety of reasons and not all for combatative reasons. If society and the world was different just as in the past, the sole reason to learn to fight and develop "internal power" is because that was the most powerful thing. There was nothing else than, no modern weapons, no laws and all that. So the top of the heap was what we know now is martial arts.

So may be a better measurement of martial arts would be their complexity, intricacies, and that kind of stuff. Because martial arts, most of which are like Aikido and have other sides and philosophies to them. It's ok to measure them on a single angle, but that only gives us a small slice of what an art is and can do or be.

Stan, I am not questioning Dan's ability or making assessments, or critiques as Dan did in the post I quoted him. Dan's view point is his own. Just as mine is for me. I agree and disagree with him and said why. So your right I haven't trained with him, and thus, I don' t make criticisms of his skills, what he does and all that. I am not an expert in all things to do so. I can only give you is an evaluation of what I would think of the experience and my personal opinion of "internal power, and IT. Now moreover, I disagree or agree with at times is his statements, his opinions, his viewpoints and perspectives. One thing too, is I feel is he is too strong and insulting, at times, in his posts toward Aikido. But....whatcha going to do?

If you had true internal power, you wouldn't be reacting to Dan's posts.

whether Angier and Ushiro sensei's are demonstrating IT or not (and why they think that....) Perhaps it's something that cannot be written or spoken about and must be felt....

Russ

While I won't presume to speak for Mr. Angier ... I have laid hands upon him on several occasions (FWIW) and can relay that Mr. Angier does repeatedly say "It's just physics" and sometimes "It's just simple physics" when waxing expositorially on the material he is demonstrating or instructing upon. Perhaps I have misunderstood or taken the comments out of context but Mr. Angier is fairly plain spoken in my estimation.

Whether it is I.S. or aiki or not I leave to others to comment. I, however, will continue to spend 'face time' with Mr. Angier as much as I'm able.

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

If you had true internal power, you wouldn't be reacting to Dan's posts.

How do you know he has the right IP? How do you know if he has the most effective, most powerful, IP. Do you think he is the only one with IP, probably not. And how does that person measure up, i.e. is he the most effective, etc. If you only feel Dan than of course he is the only one to have it. If you feel others you don't feel have it and feel Dan again Dan has it. I think to make a good solid evaluation and to be fair you would have to experience most experts in IP, and not the ones only in Aikido. If you wanted to do it right, that is. That is the hard thing about all of this.

See it is my belief we all have IP, it isn't always used the same way or looks the same, or done in the same way. Not everyone has the same manifestations of IP. Or doe everyone develop it the same why.

Where is the benchmark of such a thing as IP that is so seemingly elusive in nature, shured in coded langauge and a unique physical experience, somehthing so subjective, and so widely diverse in application, definition, and identification? Who is qualified to set the benchmarks?

How do you know he has the right IP? How do you know if he has the most effective, most powerful, IP. Do you think he is the only one with IP, probably not. And how does that person measure up, i.e. is he the most effective, etc. If you only feel Dan than of course he is the only one to have it. If you feel others you don't feel have it and feel Dan again Dan has it. I think to make a good solid evaluation and to be fair you would have to experience most experts in IP, and not the ones only in Aikido. If you wanted to do it right, that is. That is the hard thing about all of this.

See it is my belief we all have IP, it isn't always used the same way or looks the same, or done in the same way. Not everyone has the same manifestations of IP. Or doe everyone develop it the same why.

Where is the benchmark of such a thing as IP that is so seemingly elusive in nature, shured in coded langauge and a unique physical experience, somehthing so subjective, and so widely diverse in application, definition, and identification? Who is qualified to set the benchmarks?

FYI Latorila , These questions are not intended to be answered.

Hi Buck.

If you had true internal power, you wouldn't be reacting to Dan Harden's posts.

If you had true internal power, you wouldn't be reacting to Dan Harden's posts.

Bye!

I don't think me having IP or not is the issue. I don't proclaim any great power over others, or knowledge others don't have, or knowledge that will improve other martial art. Honestly, I don't know if what Dan has, would make any difference to me or not, as I think he is just taking a different angle, method of teaching, different approach to the same universal IP principles that has been understood by thousands of martial arts over hundreds of years.

We can all agree that IP, stems generally from the Chinese arts. That is what ever anyone discovers as IP, if it is legitimately effective (not taught by the B.S. artists), can marked in the Chinese arts. That is these principles can be applied differently and have different application. Our thing as Aikidoka is to apply IP in the way and manner as O'Sensei did to get the same results as he did, hence the term Aikido.

What I find interesting is Dan says he has IP either not taught or missing in Aikido. I personally think what might apply over the other is the latter. I don't think any thing is missing in Aikido when it comes to IP. What might be possible is not all of Aikido's IP are not taught, or not everyone is exposed, discovered, or taught IP, and hence is some Aikido it is lost. The other thing to is because of Aikido's spiritual side certain Aikido IP are not practiced in such a way to fully maximize IP, and as a result are curb or not observed. All this varies from Aikido style to Aikido style. But I feel O'Sensei's Aikido and his practice was complete and he made an effort to design IP to function within his philosophy.

Do I have IP, yes, everyone does. But, can I apply it the way and in the manner O'Sensei did...no, and that is the challenge, isn't. And being Japanese, I do think O'Sensei as in tradition set the challenge he met to be like climbing Mount Everest on your own. And all most impossible challenge that if achieved set you among the immortals, or at least up their in the company of the greats who did the seemingly impossible. Are you up for that challenge?

If that challenge is too tough for some, if that challenge doesn't seem to be what you / a person wants, then fine. Not criticisms from me. But, I think it is unfair to say essentially my thing is better than yours, and other harsh criticisms I read. But what can you do?