>> charlie: welcome to the broadcast. we begin this evening with a look at the assassination in january in dubai of a leading hamas operative. joining me brian ross of abc, writer and author edward jay epstein, robert malley, and on the phone from beirut, borzou deragahi of "the los angeles times." >> what was the possibility of taking this man, why was it so important to get this particular figure? >> with all this facial-recognition equipment, with all this cooperation, with all this great police work and high-powered computers why weren't they able to say where he was during the four hours that he was missing? >> when i have spoken to hamas leaders they don't deny the fact that he was very important

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person in the military wing and that his loss was a severe blow. >> i would also like to know what the political thinking was and why the risk was taken presumably by israel to conduct this operation in the u.a.e. which is one of the countries in the arab world that has at least somewhat cordial relations with israel, and which israel needs to coax in its largest effort to confront iran and its nuclear program. >> charlie: we conclude this evening with a conversation with mike krzyzewski, coach of the duke university basketball team, one of the teams in the final four. >> i think a competitive mind is like a glass. you can only fill it so much. if you, as a coach, trying to fill it with all that you know you take away from that player's instincts. you have got to fill it up to a certain point and then allow the

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player to fill it on his own. >> charlie: the dubai assassination, and coach k. next. funding for "charlie rose" has if you've had a coke in the last 20 years, ( screams ) you've had a hand in giving college scholarships... and support to thousands of our nation's... most promising students. ♪ ( coca-cola 5-note mnemonic ) captioning sponsored by rose communications

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from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: on january 20th this year, the body of a high-ranking hamas official was discovered in a hotel in dubai. dubai officials later called it an assassination. a british investigation has found that israel was involved in forging 12 british passports used by suspects who killed mahmoud al papu. closed-circuit images released last month by dubai authorities. they show him being tracked. dubai's police chief is 99-100% sure that mossad, israel's national intelligence agencies beyond the operation. israel has not confirmed or denied involvement, in keeping with standard policy. an international investigation continues and many questions remain. >> on the day of the hit, a bald-headed team leader, kevin, is seen going into a hotel

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bathroom with a suitcase. when he comes out, he is wearing a wig and a pair of glasses. as the target arrives at the hotel, the hamas military commander, he is surrounded on both sides of the counter by members of the hit team. that as the hamas commander is escorted to his room, two men with tennis rackets rush to catch the elevator. they are part of the hit team. police say. one follows -- easily able to figure out in which room the target is staying. room 230. >> they want to get close to the target. they want a positive i.d. >> a few hours later, the woman, gale, and a second man take a position in the hall, essentially standing guard, police say, while others on the team carry out the assassination in room 230. >> charlie: joining me now to look at this case and its implications, brian ross, chief investigative reporter for abc

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news, brian jay episteeb stein who wrote about the case initially. robert malley of the international crisis group. and on the phone borzou deragahi of "the los angeles times." what can we say about the case from dubai authorities? >> dubai authorities became suspicious within a few days, and once they realized who this man was they began to put together i think it was 600-700 hours worth of tape. they analyzed it, broke it down. they have said publicly as you mentioned they believe it was mossad, they've gone to interpol, to issue red notices, arrest warrants but they don't know who the people are. they have pictures of them but that's it. >> tell me who he was. >> he worked for hamas. he was an operative in hamas. he was involved in terrorist

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attacks against israelis and coordinating to what press reports and others have been saying he was the main link with iran in terms of arms supplies. what hamas leaders will say is that he was helpful in organizing the jihad -- the war against israel which one would assume means that he was in charge of trying to get some funding or some weapons to hamas in gaza. he certainly was somebody who they deemed important: when i spoke to hamas leaders they don't deny he was an important person in the military wing and that his loss was a severe blow. >> in terms -- >> charlie: in terms of the tick-tock of the story, what would you add to what brian said? >> i would say that one of the -- one of the most important aspects of was the case of facial-recognition software and very high-powered computers to analyze -- basically do searches

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through this video footage that he referred to that was abundant in dubai, in being installed in many different locations around the city, and also the involvement of the u.a.e. federal government -- the secret police in this case. it wasn't just the dubai police that were involved in this. it was the larger federal government, and that, i think, made a big difference in terms of how quickly the case was made that there was israeli involvement. >> charlie: how do you see this? because you often have a contrarian view about things like this. >> charlie, i would be very skeptical at taking at face value what the dubai police chief or dubai authorities say even about the closed-circuit photographs. they don't show someone saying, "team leader, he doesn't have a pin on." these are all assumptions that they've cleverly blended in with the fact that they have

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photographs of 26 people. they have 26 false passports. nine of the falls passports seem to trace back to israel. but we don't know that it was a team. the people escaped in different directions. why, with all this facial-recognition equipment, with all this cooperation, with all this great police work and high-powered computers, why weren't they able to say where he was during the four hours that he was missing? why did he have no security when he left syria? we know that he had no security because they said they didn't have room on the plane. >> the story that was given was there was no room on the plane. another version is that he may have wanted to go to dubai because men like to go to dubai because there are things you can do there that you can't do elsewhere. it's a wide-open city. he may have wanted to have private time. they compromised his email and cell phone. they knew his plans. for whatever reason, he

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certainly was there. >> but don't you think we should fill in this missing piece of why he didn't have bodyguards rather than speculating that maybe he was going on a vacation? and maybe he was, but i think there are missing pieces in the story, and serious ones. >> charlie: fill in some of this as far as you know from your close connections to -- >> we're not going to resolve here the investigation. clearly, until we know, we don't know. but that being said, certainly there would be a motivation of israel's part given the past of the individual, the fact that the british government has expelled an israeli official tells us something about their suspicion about israeli involvement. many european capitals that i have been in -- they don't really question israeli involvement but again, we can't establish it, but there seems to be enough motivation, enough circumstantial evidence that despite some of the doubts that were just raised there is at least a better reason to suspect that israel was behind it than anyone else, and again from

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israel's point of view it made sensement they succeeded in doing what they wanted to do even though there may have been all these cameras, if it was them, they killed somebody who there is no doubt they would like to have seen dead. >> charlie: let's raise this question. let's assume it was israel. would the prime minister have had to sign off on that? >> presumably. >> as we know, it's not the first time that a hamas official has been a target of an israeli government when prime minister netanyahu was prime minister back in the 1990's, the current head of hamas was the target of a poison attempt in amman. >> they tried to inject a poison in his ear. they became aware of it. the president called president clinton and demanded that they provide the antidote and they in fact released a religious leader from captivity in israel who was

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a top hamas individual. there they seem to have been caught redhanded. >> let me agree. i think the key unresolved question at this point remains what was manhouh doing there and i have a suspicion the u.a.e. officials know what he was doing there, that they have footage or insight into what he was doing there and that is a key part of the investigation that they've decided not to disclose at this point. >> charlie: what is the speculation as the reason why he was there? >> the very possible -- very good possible good reason is that he was there trying to arrange some kind of arms shipment, maybe not with iran because iran has a robust embassy in damascus, not to mention 10 flights a week between syria and tehran, so maybe it was from somewhere in sudan, or somalia, where there is a robust weapons trade, and that could be the key in terms

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of what was behind this assassination, what the suspected assassins were trying to prevent. >> charlie: does hamas consider this in the end a serious loss for them? do they consider it a serious embarrassment for israel? what do they think? >> i think they would like for it to be a serious embarrassment for israel but so far it hasn't had the kind of repercussions they would like to see. let's remember, this is just one piece in a wider puzzle that hamas has to face which is not a very easy one right now, they're stuck in gaza, egypt is building a wall, the blockade is continuing, they haven't been able to find a way back into the reconciliation talks with the other national palestinian organization, they haven't really gotten very far in terms of their own international contacts. the only thing they tell me, when i saw them not long ago they were very worried abouthe death but at the same time, they say, "we have so many other things to worry about." the only thing they said they had going for themselves was

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that they felt that president abbas and fatah movement, their rival, faced just as broad challenges as they did, but this is just one piece of a much, much broader challenge that they face right now. they would like to see greater international pressure on israel, but i don't think they have many illusions about that. >> charlie: what is the judgment in the region about the consequences of this assassination? >> i think in the end, it, to many people in the region, to arabs in the region it, on the one hand, shows the reach of israel and demonstrates that again. that was the message, obviously, of the hit, that "we can get you anywhere, any time" but also just the images, the way it was portrayed in the media, the whole circus of it i think ultimately will lessen the prowess of mossad and the -- in the perception of people, these pudgy guys in shorts and tennis rackets walking around, this is

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mossad? and i have heard that quite a bit. but on the other hand, for the professionals in the business, in the industry, i'm sure a lot of people, it was a startling moment to see just where they can reach and how well they can do an operation like this. we shouldn't forget that they all got away and none got caught, so in many respects the operation was a success. >> charlie: where is the investigation? >> it's very unclear as to what they are doing at this point except for one thing. they continue to go through that footage. they continue to run the facial recognition software through the footage and try to mix and match people who have come through the country and see if there is more connections between any of the 26 suspects they've already pointed to, and others, and then take that footage and try to match it to passport photos and then go to the various countries and ask, "hey, does this person exist with this photo?" from there that's how they have

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been sifting through the data and getting these suspects. >> i think bottom line, i would have to agree that the israelis if they were responsible are not going to turn anybody over, ever, and it's unlikely arrests will be made unless those people leave israel for some reason. >> charlie: the most important question you want to know is what? >> i want to know why this man was in dubai. why people were following him. and what he was up to. i think what we don't know -- my bottom line is we really don't know why he was killed. we don't know wokilled him. we can speculate. it seems plausible. it seems reasonable. you can convince me. but we really don't know anything more than a lot of people were in dubai with phony identities that were prepared probably by an intelligence service. >> charlie: what do you want to know? >> i would also just like to know what the political thinking was and why the risk was taken -- presumably by israel to conduct this operation in the

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u.a.e. which is one of the countries in the arab world that has at least somewhat cordial relations with -- with israel, and which israel needs to coax in its larger effort to confront iran and its nuclear program. u.a.e. remains a major transit point for iran, maybe not necessarily for its nuclear program but very possibly also for that. and this is not going to convince the u.a.e. to do israel any favors. >> charlie: do the weapons that they buy come through the u.a.e.? >> that's been speculated, but there has been no hard evidence that weapons come through there, but possibly other dual-use goods, and many other goods do go through u.a.e. and the number one dual-use good goes through the u.a.e. and that's cash. >> charlie: what do you want to know, rob? >> everything i wanted to know about this case and never dared to ask i just heard, so i think

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weave answered most of the questions. but i will say this, i think from israel's point of view there is some of it that obviously didn't go the way they wanted to but assuming it was them they achieved their goal, and if if you read the israeli press there has been some hand-wringing about the way it was done but we got this guy, this was a bad guy, let's leave it there." the question i had, because this is not the first case of this type, again, assumingly it -- assuming it was israel, there has been a number of intelligence service assassinations of syrians, of hezbollah officials and now hamas officials. what does hezbollah do about it, what does hamas do about it? so far there may have been attempted retaliation but nothing succeeded. at some point do they have to respond or do they keep taking these hits? this has been a shadowy war but israel has managed to kill, assuming it's them, a number of high-profile people in syria,

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now in dubai, a number of hamas and syrian officials. i doubt it's coincidental and i think it tells us something about the degree to which israel's secret service is waging its own battle against its purported enemies. >> charlie: has the killing of these people benefitted israel to a large degree? >> that's a long-term question. in the short-term, yes, you never know whether the assassination creates greater thirst for revenge or whether it gets rid of people who may attack you. that's been the story of israel's relations with many of its neighbors for many years. >> charlie: what are you looking for? where is it taking you? >> i think a larger question here we haven't talked about has to do with israel's intentions and iran and nuclear. >> charlie: absolutely. >> and are they trying to clear up problems that may result if they were to attack iran. and that's one of the questions that i know american officials have been kicking around. >> charlie: wait. >> was the hamas man there stocking up weapons as a

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possible retaliation should israel go against iran? and i think a larger question is what -- as you have suggested, what's the calculation for them to take this kind of risk if it was mossad with the possibility of it blowing up? what was the calculation? why was it so important to get this particular hamas figure? >> one thing that i thought was rather interesting -- a theory i have heard from many people is that israel is doing -- with these targeted assassinations of israel -- whoever is doing them, presumably israel is actually doing a favor to these organizations because the way they are structured is not like -- they're not like corporations where the most talented person gets ahead, so oftentimes the only way to get rid of -- oftentimes the only way to get rid of middle management in hamas or hezbollah is to have them assassinated or killed in battle and then new blood enters, and you saw that very clearly in the case of hezbollah where the predecessor of hassan

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nasrillah was killed by israelis and hassan turned out to be more charismatic and talented than his predecessor. >> that would explain trying to create a natural death if you were trying to get his successor into line. >> charlie: rob, do you have anything to add to that? >> no. i think we could speculate a lot. i sort of go with what makes the most sense, and as i said, this fits in a pattern of a number of assassinations that have taken place, and mossad takes credit for the fact that it's reorganized and believes it's much more effective leading these kinds of operations. i think the question for the region as a whole is, if you look at it, there are so many flash points, tinderboxes between israel and hezbollah, israel and gaza. weave seen heightened tensions in the last few days with rocket attacks and israeli incursions and the killing of israeli soldiers. the question of iran, which was just mentioned. and none of this is being done with any sense of the rules of the game, of anyone being able

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to put things back -- calm them down if, in fact, there is escalation, so even though i don't see right now that war is on the horizon, there are so many opportunities for things to go wrong and israel does feel like it's being surrounded and that it has iran developing a bomb, hamas feeling like it's being suffocated and needs some way to find a way out, hezbollah as you have just heard believes that israel intends to wage a war against it and iran sees the pressure rising, this is a pressure cooker, and hopefully someone, somewhere, hopefully the united states will be able to do something before it's too late. >> charlie: my thanks to rob malley, international crisis group. borzou deragahi of "the los angeles times," brian ross of abc. edward jay epstein, a frequent visitor to this program. >> hollywood economist.

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>> charlie: thank you all. a pleasure. back in a moment. stay with us. >> charlie: mike krzyzewski, coach k, has been head basketball coach at duke university for three decades. he has won three national titles. in 1991, 1992, and 2001. he has a combined 24 atlantic coast conference regular season and tournament championships. his presence and influence is all over the duke campus -- especially at cameron indoor stadium, the halls of cameron marked with symbols of athletic influence and tradition. on saturday, his team will face their stiffest challenge of the season when they take on the west virginia mountaineers at the final four in indianapolis. on wednesday we went to durham, north carolina to the campus to talk to coach k before he departed for indianapolis. here is that conversation. 11 final fours. six finals. won three.

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haven't been back in a few years. characterize the moment here. >> i'm trying to go from euphoric over sunday night to realistic like "weave got to win a game on saturday night," and that's difficult, because this was as good a final four to get into -- a regional final win as i have experienced since the first one in 1986, because i really love my guys, and i was so happy to see jon scheyer and lance thomas and brian zoubek fulfilled -- you know, go to the promised land, which is the final four, and it was kind of like -- because i am a father, i have seven grandkids, it's like seeing your son or daughter or grandkid do something grashths and it was that type of thing, but i love my team, and i am

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anxious to compete this weekend. >> charlie: "love my team" means what? >> there is not a second that i'm with them that i would rather be somewhere else. i'm as fresh at the end of this season as i have ever been because there have been no emotional drains. the maintenance of this team has been easiment there are no couch issues where we have to put your psychological hat on and "just sit down, son." >> charlie: you have gone through some of them. >> every coach has. i haven't had to use the couch at all this year. >> charlie: at the beginning of the season, you thought this was possible or likely? >> i didn't really want to think about the end of the season at the beginning of the season because we were trying something new. we have six of our nine guys are 6'8" and above. we had to change our style.

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we were going to be rebounders and halfcourt defenders instead of penetrate and kick and fullcourt press, so i didn't know how it would completely work out, but i thought we would be good. and we have progressively gotten better. >> charlie: you have said not great but really good. >> great because of talent. i think we're as good a team as a team could be as far as cohesiveness. we have each other's back. cooperation. trust. all those things. accountability. collective responsibility. talent-wise, we have good talent but we don't have great talent. that's what i mean when i say we're not a great team. we're right now a very good team. >> charlie: is there a shane battier on this team? one person who is clearly the leader? >> no. lance thomas has been our emotional leader.

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i wish you could see him, every day, whether it's stretching, defensive drills, huddles, he's on all the time, and he's a little bit more confrontational than our other co-captain, jon scheyer. jon is more of a hugger. "you will be ok," that type of thing. and the combination of those two guys, along with zoubek -- zoubek's not one of the the captains, but he's emerged as somebody to listen to and a fifth-year player who is in graduate school, within of our scholarship walk-ons, jordan davidson, he doesn't say much, but like kyle singler has told me, "coach, when jordan says something, i always listen." so it's been more by committee. >> charlie: one of your freshmen said, "this is the guy that lebron listens to. this is the guy that kobe listens to.

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you would be an idiot not to listen to him." >> we try to remind them. i tell a lot of my teams, i said, "where you were sitting," i said "you guys know who grant hill is. "yeah." you know who shane battier is. they listened. whether our olympic team listened to everything, i said, "those guys listened. why wouldn't you listen? you've got to be nuts not to listen." that's when you're grasping for credibility strains. >> charlie: speaking of the olympic team, did that change anything about you and your life and the way you look at goals? >> the olympic experience -- and i'm going to do it again -- in fact, this summer we coach in the world championships in turkey, and with a new pool of players hopefully most of the guys around our olympic team will be there again.

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i learned from being around jerry colangelo, mike daytona, nate mcmillan, jim -- mike d'antoni, nate mcnil millan, jim boeheim, how to handle -- nate mcmillan, jim boeheim, how to handle off-court situations and i have changed some as a result of that experience. >> charlie: how so? >> i think you get better. you're better with the press. you're a better listener. there are so many more people that you respect to listen to. so you start listening. you listen to jason kidd. about their ideas. you definitely listen to colangelo. because he knows what he's doing. >> charlie: basketball is a continual learning experience, even for you? >> i think everything is.

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but at this point in my career, where do you learn? who shares ideas with you? there really isn't that going onment that's why i've reached out to mutual friend john mack and people who are leaders -- >> charlie: who understand leadership. >> leadership. >> charlie: how to inspire. >> but the olympics was about basketball. how cool is that? to be able to be with these guys and listen to them and then come up and adapt to where we're all coming up with what the best idea is, not what each one of our ideas might be. >> charlie: you mentioned this is a different team and you do different things. did you set out in recruiting to put together a team that you knew would be different? >> no. it just happened. in college basketball, it's very difficult to set out and recruit, because you don't know how long you're going to have them. it's more instant gratification. that's just the way it is. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, but a kid can go pro much

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earlier. a kid who doesn't make it right away as a freshman might transfer, that type of thing, so the long-range planning in college basketball for what we call these elite programs, there are a number of them, we're one of them, it's very difficult. it's very difficult. >> charlie: you have guys who have been here for four years. >> not all the time, though. when these players came in, we had only one junior and no seniors. that's why i love these guys so much. they were thrown in -- they ended up 22-11, making the ncaa tournament. we looked like we were coming off the eastern front by the end of the season. we were just dead. but charlie, they learned from doing it. that's why i feel we're more old-school like a team from the 1980's because we do have juniors and seniors but we have seniors who at an elite level

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got knocked back -- again, 22 -- they've won 113 games. but they were knocked back because of the expectation of you're supposed to win every game. >> charlie: and they didn't get to the final four. >> yes. they didn't go to the promised land. >> charlie: yeah. have you always -- certainly over the last four or five years -- desperately wanted big men to play for you? sometimes people would look at duke teams and say, "they're missing strength in the low post." >> weave tried, over the years, to get a big -- big guys like christian laettner, danny ferry and -- but sometimes in recruiting you get lucky, like we were able to get elton brand and carlos boozerment when we had each of those two guys, we really -- elton brand and carlos boozer. when we had each of those guys we had a better game and our

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rebounding was better but we're not capable of getting those guys all the time. >> charlie: you look at the talent you have at the beginning of every season and say "i've got to play this kind of basketball based on the skills i have." >> "are you a drama? a comedy?" but with the basic point of we're are we good defensively? and will we be unselfish?" >> charlie: how have they evolved over the years? >> as good as any team i have had. >> charlie: from what to what? >> from good to really good. i think weave played -- we've had a couple of bad games where we didn't have energy but for the most part weave had -- all but maybe two games, energetic, enthusiastic, fighting and weave gotten better, and our big guys have really done well.

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wojo's done a great job with -- he really works with them and he's done a great job of getting them to move on and zoubek's been a great story in how well he's played. >> charlie: wojo's a natural coach. >> i have great assistants. that's why when we were in houston, in a football stadium, it's an elevated court, they put a stool out there, i'm sitting on a stool and i don't like that. i don't stand up a bunch. i like sitting with my guys. so during the game, wojo, chris collins, nate james, chris mato la, they're all talking to me and you're up on a stool. "ok, what am i supposed to do now?" i've got great guys. >> charlie: didn't you say to nolan smith to shoot at one point? >> close enough. >> charlie: so you could say "shoot"? >> duke back in front by one. >> he was right in front of me, and it was one of those times where if i was a player i wish i

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would have had the guts to shoot at that point, so sometimes you just yell, "shoot it," so he shot it, then after he shot it he was close enough, he hit me hand, "and i said -- and i said, "good, shoot it again." >> charlie: you are looking at west virginia, and what are you trying to figure out? >> one, who they are. we don't go into this weekend looking to win the national championship. >> charlie: in one game. >> we look at how do we play west virginia. and so you try to get a good feel for them as to what their strengths are and then what do we do? how can we tweak what we do, or customize what we do to lessen their strengths, not take them away completely because you're not going to be able to do that, and what i hope i give my team is -- first of all, they have a confidence level that i'm the guy coordinating all this. that they can use their skills

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and i'll be there to help them use their skills as well as they possibly can in every game, and that i won't do so much that i'll rob them of their instincts. and over the course of the year, they just trust us. our players trust us. >> charlie: in the last game and in the huddle with two minutes to go, whatever the time was before you had the last spurt. >> right. >> charlie: what did you say to them? >> i thought by that time we were really in the fight. we were -- i thought we were outplaying them a little bit where we hadn't been outplaying them the whole game. and i said, "you guys are fighting. we're right there. just take it to another level. you're right there. just follow your instincts. you have shots. follow what you do." >> charlie: so it's about motivating them at that stage, it's not about where are you going to throw the ball in. take the shot or what the cut is going to be? >> not as much, and especially

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in that game, there was no play or whatever. it was basically, "we practiced this. do what you do in practice. the event will take it to a higher level." "and don't be afraid." like we always say, "shoot your bullets." >> charlie: don't leave them in the barrel, so to speak. >> if we do lose -- i don't tell them that, i don't want to use the word "lose" -- but i would say -- >> charlie: lose is not on the -- >> "we're going to win, shoot your bullets and rebound like crazy. be yourselves. be yourselves." >> charlie: take john wooden, dean smith, bobby knight, mike krzyzewski and others. boeheim. what one common denominator is there other than they have been winners? what is it that they might have, all, that contributes to who they are and what they do?

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>> i think in whatever time frame it took to establish it, whenever one of those coaches say something to their team or an individual on the team, there is instant belief. >> charlie: and trust. >> well, belief and trust, instant, so that young man or that team has a better chance of doing whatever they are capable of doing. and i don't think any of those guys overcoach, overtalk, you know, like i think a competitive mind is like a glass. it can only take -- you can only fill it so much. if you as a coach try to fill it with all you know you take away from that player's instincts. you've got to fill it up to a certain point and then allow the player to fill it on his own.

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i think there is that combination. those coaches, whether they frame it that way or whatever have evoked that. >> charlie: what do you say to someone like kyle who is a warrior, who has defensive roles as well, what do you say to him if his shot is not going down? >> first of all, with kyle, in the baylor game, i don't think he had the look of a warrior the whole game. i think he got into early foul trouble and it knocked him back, and i was constantly -- >> charlie: playing timid? >> yeah, but he's not timid and he wasn't playing -- he wasn't following his nature, and i spent most of the game trying to get him to follow his nature. i don't think he ever completely did it in that ballgame, and since then we've watched tape of the game to sense, like, "what were you thinking at this time?" >> charlie: the two of you watching together? >> just the two of us. >> charlie: "what's going on?"

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>> like i watched and said "look at your face right now. that's not a face you normally have. do you agree or not agree?" he said "yeah." i said "so you're thinking." he said "yeah." i said "do you remember what you were thinking about?" "i don't know, coach." and i said, "well, you're into your own stuff. what should you be doing at that time?" he said, "i don't know." "you should be talking. you should be giving instruction. that helps you get outside of yourself. if you're thinking too much, you play the game within yourself." i told him, i said, "you are an upper-body player, everything is upper body, and when you're thinking just about yourself, i think you become this person. when you're talking, you become a lower-body player. your feet are wider. you're a stronger stance. and i said it comes with talking. in basketball, you don't play

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the game talking like this. your hands go out. your arms go out, your feet go out and all of a sudden you're outside of yourself, and i said, when we play this weekend you have to be outside of yourself." >> charlie: some people look at your team this year and they say you're getting second shots better than you ever have. >> they're right, this is the best offensive-rebounding team we've had at duke. >> charlie: why is that? >> because that's what our team needs, and we have the height and the egos of those guys who are rebounding, who think that that's as important as jon scheyer that i can -- taking a shot. >> charlie: this rebound is every bit as important as his three-pointer? >> when i go to see a musical in new york, on broadway, when those other dancers -- there is the main character. when the other people come out, they think what they're doing is as important as that person, and that's what makes a great -- >> charlie: and that's what you teach? >> you try to make sure that

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those guys -- their roles are elevated to the same level as the guy who makes the shot. so that when they're in those situations they might come through. >> charlie: what's the instruction for the defensive player who will guard da'sean butler? >> one, don't foul him. >> charlie: sure. sure. of course. thank you very much. how do i do that? >> what i'm saying with that is, "you're anxious to guard him so you might take yourself out of a normal way of defending them and you might be more prone to fakes." that's what we mean by not falling him. you want him to not touch the ball as much as possible. and you always want to attack a shooter on the -- it's not like football. you don't have a defensive and offensive team. he has to play defense too. can you attack him in a way where he has to play defense? so he's not just playing offense against you. >> charlie: take shane battier,

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who is as good as it was, i guess. >> as good as we've had. >> charlie: he's not doing bad in the pros either. >> he's done all right. >> charlie: what was it that he had that made him so effective as a defensive player and how do you get whoever is going to guard butler to do that? >> we don't have anybody as good as battier. shane would study a player, and he's so smart, he would anticipate a player's move, and even though someone might be more athletic than he was in college, he would anticipate the move and try to beat the person to that spot. he would try to out think them. and then he just had the determination that for us to win, he had to do that. >> charlie: you coached players who have great instincts for the game. they know where the next step is. >> and you try not to have so much of a game plan where you take away from those instincts. you try to give them just enough

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to where they can still do what they instinctively do. >> charlie: people say to me about this team that you have, this is a great defensive team, your team. they say it's a great rebounding team now. they say they've developed some real strength in the low post so they can kick it out well. so the determining factor, if duke's shooters are hitting three-pointers, they're going to win. that's the x factor. if they're hitting their three-point shots. >> we haven't hit them much. >> charlie: and you're still won. so they're wrong. >> we had 23 offensive rebounds. that's good. what's bad is we missed so many shots that we could have 23 offensive rebounds. they have good outside shooters too. butler is an outstanding player and competitor. jones can really shoot. we have a couple good shooters

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too. it might be that -- like that one guy has a great night for either team. >> charlie: how do you coach differently than you have? are you different now? are you more mellow? >> i'm not more mellow. i listen better. a lot better. >> charlie: to whom? . it's everyone. in my program. i let people talk more than i did when i was younger. when you're younger and you are doing this -- >> charlie: you want to hear yourself? >> well, and also you already think you know what someone is going to say halfway through what they're saying. you don't let them complete sentences. i've changed a lot since then and i allow my people to use their skills more. i allow them to make us better. i have more confidence. i trust my people more. and i do that because i think i trust myself more in those

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situations. >> charlie: what's the game plan? what does it include? >> it includes -- first of all the fundamentals of what they do offensively and defensively, and how what you are going to do offensively and defensively against that, and what you try to do is -- because we haven't played them before and you are coming from conference play where you get to know each other, so you don't want to give them too much, but how does the team get to know the other team? so we give them -- we have them watch tape. we do walkthroughs. and our drills, individually and collectively, build up to where you hear, you see, and you do. >> charlie: jay bilas has become my basketball partner on this program. he seems to know the game. >> he does know it. >> charlie: he said that what

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you do in the days now leading into this saturday confrontation is simplify, simplify, simplify. you don't let it get too complex. >> right. >> charlie: what does he mean? >> well, because it's not what you know as a coach, it's what your players know and can do in a game situation, and so i might know a lot, or my staff knows a lot but if you put too much on the player he won't be instinctive on the court. he will try to remember. that's not good. because then you become slower. it's a quick-paced game. it's not play after play like in football, or pitch after pitch in -- >> charlie: it's constant motion. >> it's constant motion. so game plans in basketball should be shorter than longer, where they might be really long in football because you have a chance in -- you have a chance to talk in between each play. so it's a different mindset in

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getting our team ready for our sport. one is not better than the other, it's just that's what you have to do. >> charlie: you know there are people saying that the saturday night game between west virginia and duke is the final, really, that whoever wins that game will win the final four. >> i hope they're right. i hope they're right. and i hope we win on saturday. >> charlie: do you think there is any merit in that? >> no. actually, playing the second game, there is a little psychological hurdle you have to have because you're focusing just on west virginia, is right before the game you will know who your next opponent will be. if you win. michigan state and butler will not have to cross that bridge. it's a little bit of a bridge to cross. i'm remembering we won our first national championship, we played the second game against unlv in 1991, and kansas and north carolina played the game before and kansas beat north carolina,

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a very close game, and our guys are just getting ready to go off -- in fact, they got outside the locker room, i brought them back in, i said, you know, "look, we're playing nevada-las vegas," like carolina lost or kansas is going to be -- you have to focus on this opponent. there are things they can mess up mentally that you have to try to take care of for your team. >> charlie: you're saying to them "we're going to take care of your family. don't you worry about anything." >> bill: throughout this week what weave told them -- what we've told them, "if you are presented a situation where you have a problem at 11:00 at night, do not wait until 9:00 the next morning to tell us" like someone calls and says -- some cousin or friend, whatever -- which they do. it's not bad, but it happens and they only have a limited number

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of tickets. it's legal only to give so much -- you don't have to say no. call any of the coaches. call us right away. and tell that person -- that we'll get back to them right away and tell them what you can do. things like that. so they're not ticketbrokers. they're not concierge. >> charlie: what is it about duke? >> i think that we have people who really like us, or don't like us. but everybody pays attention to us. and i think we're in that group, whatever that group is, of programs that have been very successful for a long period of time, and very visible, but not just successful in winning -- competing for championships, and whoever you are, there are going to be people who want those people to lose, and people want

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you to win. so is it me? is it -- it's all of us. it's got to be me too because i'm the -- >> charlie: visible head of it. >> right. it may be for other reasons than that. >> charlie: at the same time, the television people thrill -- are thrilled that duke is in the final four. thrilled. they think more people are watching because duke is is in the game. >> we get the 9:00 game. the other thing is duke is not a state. duke is a private institution. so if we were -- say we were state u doing this, we would have a whole collection of people in our state, media and whatever that would protect us. they would protect us like crazy. they would not -- when something was said, it would beit state going after whoever was saying those things. when you're a private institution, you do not have

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that support, and so how you counter some of the negative things of people about you is much harder to do at us or a notre dame or something -- >> charlie: or stanford. >> yes, because we're not a state, and we don't want to be but that's just -- >> charlie: you're a state of mind. >> that's just all part of it. it all makes sense, and i don't take any of it personally, and even if someone means it personally i don't take it that way. >> charlie: you have to go practice. first thing this afternoon you do is look at film. >> we're giving them a little bit of tape every day so they don't watch the whole movie right away. >> charlie: is that right? >> they learn about them in more of a piecemeal fashion. >> charlie: you're going to be look at video of west virginia. >> today we looked -- yesterday we looked at some defense, today we're going to look at some offense. we practice -- we don't practice

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long right nowment an hour at the most. >> charlie: what about friday? thursday and friday? >> those are -- the friday practice is open to the public. >> charlie: that's just show -- >> it's not show, we use the 50 minutes and we work hard but we'll go to another gym before that and do walkthrough. >> charlie: you had 866 wins. bobby knight had, i think, 902. it's clier that you want to continue coaching. >> yes. >> charlie: if you win 30 games a year -- >> that's not hard -- that's not easy. >> charlie: you won 35 this year. >> 33 -- 35, thank you -- i hope you're -- are you the soothsayer? >> charlie: it's the way i think. you win 35 this year. that puts you closer and closer. how long do you want to do this? >> i will do this as long as i can still have the passion to do it at the highest level. not to just -- i could probably

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stay on, but you could be less than what you have been and still stay on. i wouldn't do that. as far as the number of wins, first of all, coach knight could coach again, which i hope he does, and if he was at indiana he would have over 1,000 wins. that should have never happened. so somebody along the way will always pass somebody who is -- someone is ahead of you now in that so-called race. if i do that, someone will pass me up, andient to do it for that. >> charlie: you want to do it for what? >> i want to do it to feel what i did on sunday when we won, and scheyer and zoubek and lance thomas felt the way they did. i want to feel young and euphoric and be a part of a group that's going after it. and whatever -- that's the way i

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have been my whole life. whatever that translates into, wins, championships or whatever, so be it. so be it. and i have been lucky -- really lucky to have the talent to where that translates into a lot. there are guys who are coaching with different levels of college basketball, and who haven't had the opportunities that i have, who have been the equal or the better of me as a coach, and i'm not saying that to show humility. it's true. it's just you're lucky -- i'm really good at what i do but i have been with really good people who are really good at what they do. it's a neat combination. and being at duke has afforded me that opportunity. that's why i will always love duke and i will always be loyal and committed to duke. >> charlie: never leave? >> never leave. i would never leave duke. ever. i mean, until i'm through coaching.

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and even then, i'll -- it's our home. north carolina is our home. i don't live in henderson, i live in durham, but it's where we've raised -- i love henderson. people of henderson, since they kicked some people out is a lot better now. >> charlie: thank you. great success saturday and monday. >> appreciate it. >> charlie: thank you. ♪ ♪ captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org ♪

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