Did anyone else grow up learning that the thing you caught by its toe in "Eeny Meeny Miney Moe" was a tiger, and not... that other word, you know the "N" word? I don't remember when I learned the true origin of the rhyme, but I was kind of horrified when I did.

STILL, though. Can you really sue the airline if the stewardess says "eeny meenie miney moe, pick a seat, we gotta go" over the PA to indecisive passengers (who happened to be black)?

Link (http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030210_2131.html)

I believe the stewardess that she had no idea it was a racist poem. Most kids get taught the "tiger" version and I bet some people never learn about the racist origin of the poem.

So, since we're in the Pit, for FUCK's sake, ladies!! The stewardess was not your enemy!! Repeat after me, she was NOT ... BEING ..... RACIST! You hair trigger, way-wound-up, over-assuming race-card-playing CLODS!! You want to fight racism? There are some real live ones out there for you to fight against!

cuauhtemoc

02-11-2003, 09:14 AM

I learned it as "Catch a dragon by the toe."

But if all the woman said was that one line, then all she's guilty of is being annoying. This is one of those lawsuits that will probably be thrown out tout de suite.

tunabreath

02-11-2003, 09:15 AM

I've only heard the tiger version. I guess I'll have to be very carefull.

Earthworm Jim

02-11-2003, 09:27 AM

Plaintiffs' attorney Scott Wissel said the sisters also want Southwest to stop using the rhyme and provide employee training to prevent such incidents.

Yeah, the training plan would be really short - Do Not Speak

People like this really need some sense beaten into them.

Biggirl

02-11-2003, 09:29 AM

Another instance of oversensitivity and zealousness.

There is real racism out there. Damaging and even dangerous racism. A lawsuit like this can only hurt those who have suffered from the real stuff.

RickJay

02-11-2003, 09:29 AM

I always learned "tiger."

Gorgon Heap

02-11-2003, 09:36 AM

I had no idea there was a "racist" version of this. I knew tiger - that is all.

You guys think that's bad, though ... wait until they try to use "Duck Duck Goose"!!!

RenMan

02-11-2003, 09:37 AM

posted by RickJay

I always learned "tiger."

Yeah, me too. Quite a shock really. Kind of like learning how "to gyp" was an ethnic slur very much like "to Jew". Lots of my friends still say "what a gyp!", without meaning any harm towards Gypsies in the slightest. Hopefully a situation will never arise where an uninformed stewardess will need to say "gyp" over the PA system.

Note: I am not excusing the use of "gyp". It is indeed an ethnic slur. All I'm saying is we to respond by educating, not suing. A lawsuit should be last resort.

RenMan

02-11-2003, 09:38 AM

posted by Gorgon Heap

You guys think that's bad, though ... wait until they try to use "Duck Duck Goose"!!!

Wait, are you pulling my leg? If not, I don't get it.

roadrunner70

02-11-2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Gorgon Heap

You guys think that's bad, though ... wait until they try to use "Duck Duck Goose"!!!

They're gonna "google" passengers into their seats? :D

auntie em

02-11-2003, 09:47 AM

I learned "tiger", too, but I think the jungle animal reference is meant to insult our African heritage. :rolleyes:

And while we're at it, what sense does it make for the flight attendant to be addressing the rhyme to the Black people??? Was she telling them to grab their own toes? Each other's toes? How does that make sense? I think she was telling the good, seated White passengers to grab the two unseated Black women by the toes and pull them into some empty seats.

That said, I hate the little songs and rhymes on Southwest Airlines. Once the flight attendant sang a little made-up ditty to the tune of "Rockin' Robin" that was annoying as hell.

But I didn't sue, because I wasn't sure if it was meant to insult Black people (Bobby Day) or White people (Michael Jackson).

RenMan

02-11-2003, 09:53 AM

First of all, Auntie Em, the tiger is found in Asia, not in Africa to my knowledge.

I disagree that the flight attendent was deliberately addressing black passengers with a racist poem. I think, like some of those who have already posted to this thread, she simply had no idea that the poem she was reciting had a racist origin. Or if she did know it, she may have realized it too late, and the sisters who are suing may not have given her the opportunity to apologize, or accepted any apology she did make afterward. The article does not say (it also does not say that the sisters were the only ones still standing).

RenMan

02-11-2003, 09:56 AM

One final rebuttal to your remark, Auntie Em. The actual poem recited over the PA was:

Eenie, meenie, minie, moe; pick a seat, we gotta go.

So it was not, in this context, a reference to grabbing anyone's toes; it referred to the use of the "eenie meenie miney moe" poem as a tool to choose arbitrarily between two or more options.

Since tigers are not from the jungles of Africa, maybe Southwest really meant this as an insult to those from India, China, Indonesia, Mongolia, or Siberia.

auntie em

02-11-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by RenMan
First of all, Auntie Em, the tiger is found in Asia, not in Africa to my knowledge.

Yeah, yeah, I know--but then how do you explain Little Black Sambo? :p

Biggirl

02-11-2003, 10:00 AM

RenMan, I believe auntie em was making a joke.

I was gonna write "eeny meeny miney moe catch a whooosh, now there it goes" but I didn't want to get sued.

BiblioCat

02-11-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by auntie em
Was she telling them to grab their own toes? Each other's toes? How does that make sense? I think she was telling the good, seated White passengers to grab the two unseated Black women by the toes and pull them into some empty seats.
She said, "Eeny, meeny, miney, moe, pick a seat, we gotta go." She didn't mention grabbing toes at all. It's just a cutesy way of telling people to find a seat and sit down. I've never flown Southwest, but I assume it's used in Coach, where there's no assigned seating. You just pick a seat and sit down.

I've never heard the racist version, either. I think this is another case of Political Correctness gone overboard.

Frank

02-11-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by auntie em
But I didn't sue, because I wasn't sure if it was meant to insult Black people (Bobby Day) or White people (Michael Jackson).

I never laugh out loud. Stop it.

So, am I the only one who learned the "n" version? In Virginia, circa 1963. It only lasted until my mother heard me the first time. Then not only was I not able to sit down for a week, I was not allowed to play with the kids I'd learned it from either. I think I like the way I was raised.

auntie em

02-11-2003, 10:02 AM

OK, apparently my sarcasm is not coming through, here. So for the record, I agree (wholeheartedly) that the lawsuit is ridiculous, and I know that tigers don't come from Africa; I was just being silly.

Auntie Em, if you were joking I apologize. It wouldn't be the first time I've been whooshed like that.

BiblioCat

02-11-2003, 10:06 AM

::whoosh::

:o

auntie em

02-11-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by RenMan
Auntie Em, if you were joking I apologize. It wouldn't be the first time I've been whooshed like that.
No need to apologize. Your rebuttal was exceedingly polite (esp. since this is the Pit), and you did not once reach for my toes. ;)

Ditto for Bibliocat. :)

Max Carnage

02-11-2003, 10:11 AM

Being from the South, I always heard the 'n'-word version growing up. Yep, I hate giving the south a black eye (oops) like that, but it's true. We were a lot more crass back then (70's) but give us a chance. Some of us aren't that bad.

Besides, I used "Bubble gum in a Dish" or "One Potato-Two Potato" more often. Chances are I was offending the Irish without knowing it though.

KneadToKnow

02-11-2003, 10:19 AM

I have Irish ancestry. Can I sue if I'm ever the victim of a round of "one potato, two potato"?

KneadToKnow

02-11-2003, 10:20 AM

Okay, I didn't see Max's post before I posted. I read slow.

Or it coul' jus' be that I'm drunk, b'gorrah.

The Devil's Grandmother

02-11-2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by auntie em
Yeah, yeah, I know--but then how do you explain Little Black Sambo? :p

Some time ago, I found a reprint of Little Black Sambo with the original illustrations. It was quite a shock to realize it was about India, not about Africa at all. So tigers were entirely appropriate to the story. Read a bit about the author, Helen Bannerman (http://www.pancakeparlour.com/Highlights/Thefuture/Short_Stories/Bannerman/bannerman.html ).

What's "Bubble gum in a dish"?

bordelond

02-11-2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Max Carnage
Being from the South, I always heard the 'n'-word version growing up. Yep, I hate giving the south a black eye (oops) like that, but it's true. We were a lot more crass back then (70's) but give us a chance. Some of us aren't that bad.

Also being from the South (New Orleans), I almost always hear "Catch a fella by the toe". I did run across the racist version from time to time, but by no means was it the default version.

Let's not paint the entire South with such a big brush.

Hamlet

02-11-2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Max Carnage
Besides, I used "Bubble gum in a Dish" or "One Potato-Two Potato" more often. Chances are I was offending the Irish without knowing it though.

Which version?

"One potato, Two potato, Three Potato, Four.
God I hate those drunken, fighting micks and their Papist whores?"

or

"Bubble Gum, Bubble Gum, in a dish
How many Micks drink like a fish?"

sperfur

02-11-2003, 10:27 AM

Bubble gum in a Dish? :confused:

Velma

02-11-2003, 10:32 AM

What's "Bubble gum in a dish"?

It's another rhyme kids use to pick one of something, or someone to be it for a game. This is the way I learned it:

Bubble gum, bubble gum in a dish.
How many pieces do you wish?

then the person would pick a number, and you would count out that many. 1-2-3-4-5 and you are it.

We also did Engine, engine number nine, which might be construed as insensitive to train wreck victims:

Engine, engine number nine
Going down Chicago line
If the train goes off the track,
Do you want your money back?
Yes, No, Maybe So?

Zebra

02-11-2003, 10:35 AM

I learned both the tiger and the nigger versions as a kid.

Things I also learned as a kid

Nigger Knocking ringing someone's doorbell and running away. (sort of a form of prank phone calls)

Nigger rig AKA Jury rig to 'fix' something (usually a car) in a non-standard fashion. Like useing bailing wire and duct tape to affix your alternator to the engin.

(what in the hell is with this 'N-word' crap? People write ball-licking, goat feltching and a host of other foul terms and yet somehow nigger is so offensive it can not be spoken or written. Don't you think that attitude contributes to the type of behavior the OP is bitching about?)

Legomancer

02-11-2003, 10:42 AM

For the record the "n-word" verson of the rhyme is featured in the movie Pulp Fiction when Zed is picking whether Ving Rhames or Bruse Willis will go first.

Ruby

02-11-2003, 10:44 AM

Being from the midwest circa 1959, we also learned the "n" version of the rhyme. I was an adult before I heard the "t" version. :D

Hamlet

02-11-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Zebra
Don't you think that attitude contributes to the type of behavior the OP is bitching about?)
No. I don't. The long history of the hatred, violence, and prejudice that is tied up in the N-word makes it horribly offensive. Unless you know people are not going to be offended by the word, I would suggest not using it. Just my 2 cents though.

Jonathan Chance

02-11-2003, 10:46 AM

I was thinking...

"One potato, two potato, three potato four
No potatoes for the micks, shove 'em out the door!"

Zebra

02-11-2003, 10:50 AM

Just FTR those are things that I learned in my childhood. I don't use the term nigger today except when discussing the term nigger.

RenMan

02-11-2003, 10:50 AM

Hey, good thing the stewardess didn't say:

"Ring around the rosy, pocket full of posy, asses, asses, must all be sat down!!"

Because there might have been some bubonic plague sufferers on board.

:)

sperfur

02-11-2003, 11:04 AM

I use the term 'Jimmy-rig' occasionally. Does that mean I'm discriminating against people named Jimmy?

I also sometimes say 'that's like the pot calling the kettle a cooking utensil'. I consider it 'updating' the phrase, since I hear people use the term 'black' and don't even realize what that means.

Of course, I guess even the updated phrase might be considered offensive to some. I don't want to be sued - perhaps I should stop.

Sauron

02-11-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by sperfur
I also sometimes say 'that's like the pot calling the kettle a cooking utensil'. I consider it 'updating' the phrase, since I hear people use the term 'black' and don't even realize what that means.

Let's not go overboard with political correctness.

"The pot calling the kettle black" refers to cast-iron cooking implements, both of which were black in color. Hence, the pot is criticizing the kettle for sharing the same trait (in this case, color) the pot does. There's no racial overtones to it at all.

Olentzero

02-11-2003, 11:20 AM

I always thought it was because they'd both been blackened by so many hours over the fire.

Kayeby

02-11-2003, 11:32 AM

I learned the "nigger" version of eeny meenie, but always thought it was "neeger". In primary school I didn't know what either meant, but it sounded like neeger, so that's what I always said. The revelation came when I was 16 and a teacher told me that the "tiger" version was better. I didn't know what was more embarrassing - having my teacher think I was racist, or that I was an idiot who recited rhymes with words I didn't understand. :(

Earthworm Jim

02-11-2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by sperfur
I use the term 'Jimmy-rig' occasionally. Does that mean I'm discriminating against people named Jimmy?

Yes. You must now be wallopped.

Duke

02-11-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by sperfur
I use the term 'Jimmy-rig' occasionally. Does that mean I'm discriminating against people named Jimmy? Well, originally the phrase was "Jerry-rig." It was coined by the English...and you should know that "Jerry" was a British epithet used against the Germans during The Wars. Get yer apologizin' boots on!

Typo Negative

02-11-2003, 11:43 AM

Where are our resident lawyers here?

How can they sue? How have they suffered damages? Is being offended considered 'damage' now? Are they claiming to traumatized by the incident?

Really, I'm asking. What do they have a legal claim to recover?

Minty? Bricker?

Mehitabel

02-11-2003, 11:50 AM

Another for the database: born in '64, raised in da Bronx, where frankly there were plenty of things to offend every sense and sensibility, learned only the tiger version.

Heard about the n version when I was in my twenties, but it would not have occured to me if I overheard that flight attendent. How old are the people suing and where are they from?

Mehitabel

02-11-2003, 11:52 AM

Never mind, it was in the link.

But the stewardess was 22--odds are she simply never HEARD the racist version, and besides it seems to have been a SW thing to do.

Archergal

02-11-2003, 11:53 AM

I learned (small town Georgia, late 50's or early 60's) "catch a monkey[/] by his toe." I've never heard the "tiger" version before today. Interesting.

Although I guess "monkey" could be construed by some as insulting also.

When I was a kid I learned the "tiger" version, but in one of the Mary Poppins books they used "Indian" (or perhaps it was "Injun").

Archergal

02-11-2003, 12:05 PM

Ok, I only PRETEND to be able to code.

...must remember.... preview... is... my... friend....

sorry.

Heloise

02-11-2003, 12:06 PM

I always liked the version from Natural Born Killers, "Catch a redneck by his toe."

Having grown up in the South, that version made me smile.

sugaree

02-11-2003, 12:12 PM

The n-word version is the one used in 1949's Kind Hearts and Coronets. Agatha Christie used the n-word a lot...once she had a character that the cook would have a really rich nigger-in-his-shirt at lunch.

sugaree

02-11-2003, 12:13 PM

I mean the character hoped that the cook ect.

Raygun99

02-11-2003, 12:13 PM

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems to me like the stewardess wasn't even addressing the two black passengers specifically, rather making an announcement to the whole plane. If these were the only people still standing perhaps it makes a difference but it's still ridiculous that someone could be chastized for racism for something that's had its racism removed.

SkipMagic

02-11-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by auntie em
That said, I hate the little songs and rhymes on Southwest Airlines. Once the flight attendant sang a little made-up ditty to the tune of "Rockin' Robin" that was annoying as hell.

I hope a friggin' tiger eats your toes. And then travels back home to Asia on a Southwest flight so that the torture (at least for the toes) continues. ;)

NurseCarmen

02-11-2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by RenMan
Hey, good thing the stewardess didn't say:

"Ring around the rosy, pocket full of posy, asses, asses, must all be sat down!!"

Because there might have been some bubonic plague sufferers on board.

:)

You better be careful. (http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/11/07/ny.plague/) You never know. :D

SkipMagic

02-11-2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by RenMan
Hey, good thing the stewardess didn't say:

"Ring around the rosy, pocket full of posy, asses, asses, must all be sat down!!"

Because there might have been some bubonic plague sufferers on board.

:)

Unless they were Snopes readers. (http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm ) Then they'd be okay. ;)

::d&r::

RenMan

02-11-2003, 12:41 PM

posted by SkipMagic
Unless they were Snopes readers. Then they'd be okay.

Doh! I need to commit a weekend to reading Snopes' entire content. :smack:

Iteki

02-11-2003, 01:23 PM

Irish here, born mid 70's. I grew up with the "catch a nigger by the toe" version. Didn't have a clue what a "nigger" might be, and never wondered about it. Didn't know what "posies" were either, but I sang that as well. It was only when (a few years ago) I read the "tiger" version in a book that I registered what I had actually been singing all those years ago. Tacky, but I have worse things on my conscience.

ReservoirDog

02-11-2003, 01:39 PM

The real question here is how do you go about catching a person (of any heritage) or a tiger (or any other animal, really), by the toe?

A very small snare, I suppose. But then, what are the chances of a toe actually happening to slip into such a device?

And then, once thusly ensnared, how difficult would it be to escape?

No, no, no. Toe-catching clearly will not work.

The Devil's Grandmother

02-11-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by ReservoirDog
The real question here is how do you go about catching a person (of any heritage) or a tiger (or any other animal, really), by the toe?

My cat does it by waiting until I'm asleep and pouncing on anything moving under the blankets. She has caught toes on occasion, although hands are more common. I don't think this would work on a tiger.
I catch my cat's toes by luring them onto my lap, using one hand on the ears and the other to nab the little kitty toes. This might work on a tiger, but I'm not going to test the theory.

Khan

02-11-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Legomancer
For the record the "n-word" verson of the rhyme is featured in the movie Pulp Fiction when Zed is picking whether Ving Rhames or Bruse Willis will go first.

Yeah, I grew up with the tiger version, so when I saw that I thought Zed used "nigger" in place of "tiger" because he was trying to belittle Marcellus Wallace. I was 18 when I saw Pulp Fiction for the first time, too. And the stewardess is 22? Christ, she's barely a year older than me!

...so how DOES the "one potato, two potato" thing go, anyway?

Juniper200

02-11-2003, 02:16 PM

Data point: I'm 22 years old and from the upper Midwest. While I learned and exclusively used the "tiger" version, I was certainly aware of the "nigger" version.

Czechmaster:
One potato, two potato, three potato, four
Five potato six potato, seven potato, more.

All of the kids stand in a circle and put their fists in the "pot." One of the kids starts the rhyme, tapping a fist with each "potato." The kid who gets tapped on "more" takes his fist out and the process is repeated until there are two kids left. Then the chant changes to:

My mother told me to pick the best one, you dirty old dish rag...you.

And the kid tapped on "you" is it.

Otto

02-11-2003, 02:18 PM

Each person puts out both fists. One person counts off fists while reciting "One potato, two potato, three potato, four, five potato, six potato, seven potato more." The fist tapped on "more" is out and the counter goes on. Last fist in is the winner/first at bat/whatever.

Which I suppose could be construed as discrimninatory toward the one-handed among us. Personally I think the plaintiffs ought to be awarded a giant bag of brazil nuts.

c_goat

02-11-2003, 02:18 PM

FTR, I never heard the racist version either. I always heard the tiger one.

As a side note, from my many travels on Southwest airlines, I think they encourage this sort of cutesy behavior and bad puns. Here's some examples:

- After returning from Las Vegas, the flight attendant sand the following, to the tune of Barney's "I love you" song:

We love you
You love us
We're much faster than the bus
We hope you enjoyed our hospitality
Marry one of us, you'll fly for free

- After we once had a rough landing, they came on and said "The pilot would like to apologize for the rough landing and let you know it wasn't his fault, it was the asphalt".

If anything, they should be sued for bad humor, not racism.

mhendo

02-11-2003, 02:21 PM

I grew up in Australia, and the version i remeber from my youth is the "nigger" version. I can only guess that this was somehow considered acceptable because:

a) Australia has (or at least had) very few African and African-American immigrants

b) the term was only very rarely used to describe Australian Aborigines (and is never used nowdays). There were a bunch of other derogatory terms, which are thankfully falling out of use, that people would use to insult Australia's first inhabitants.

Thus, the term didn't carry the immense historical weight that it does in the United States, with all the oppression and discrimination that went with it.

What i can't remember, however, is exactly where i learned the verse - at school? at home? (i can't imagine my mother ever using such a word). It's a mystery to me.

Max Carnage

02-11-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Otto

Personally I think the plaintiffs ought to be awarded a giant bag of brazil nuts.

Very sneaky, Otto. I figured that too was a southern thing, but judging from your location, it must be a little more wide spread than that.

Juniper200

02-11-2003, 02:40 PM

Max: I heard that usage from my mom's relatives in southwest Indiana, so I think it's used by dipshits everywhere.

Jackmannii

02-11-2003, 02:41 PM

Can you be sued for bringing a copy of Agatha Christie's Ten Little Indians on the plane (bearing in mind the original title)?

Morbo

02-11-2003, 02:45 PM

::raises hand:: I can honestly say I had never remebered hearing the "n" version in my life until I read this in the news. I had forgotten about Pulp Fiction version until I read this thread - I just assumed they were being deliberately racist in that scene.

I'm just waiting for the update that says the flight attendant lost her job over this bullshit.

Perhaps this can all be settled with a friendly game of billiards. Defensive style. ::d&r::

davidm

02-11-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Archergal
I learned (small town Georgia, late 50's or early 60's) "catch a monkey[/] by his toe." I've never heard the "tiger" version before today. Interesting...[i]Sigh.... I also learned the "monkey" version in the late 50's - early 60's, just outside of Philadelphia, PA. I wasn't aware of the racist version until adulthood.
How many of you learned "Ching ching Chinee-man sittin' on a fence, tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents"? There's no denying the racism in that one. But, I'm ashamed to say, as a (white) child I was completely oblivious to it even though I was aware of and hated racism against blacks.

Jackmannii

02-11-2003, 03:20 PM

Memo to Southwest Airlines - when you want passengers to sit down, use a version of Jambalaya instead:

Oddly, the judge agreed with the plaintiffs that it could be viewed as racist.

"The court agrees with plaintiffs that because of its history, the phrase `eenie, meenie, minie, moe' could reasonably be viewed as objectively racist and offensive," [U.S. District Judge Kathryn] Vratil wrote. That, IMHO, is a bit over the line, esp. considering the context. I do, however, think that if it truly offends people, Southwest should instruct its employees to stop using the rhyme.

World Eater

02-11-2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Jackmannii
Can you be sued for bringing a copy of Agatha Christie's Ten Little Indians on the plane (bearing in mind the original title)?

In this day and age I wouldn't be surprised.

sperfur

02-11-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Sauron
Let's not go overboard with political correctness.

"The pot calling the kettle black" refers to cast-iron cooking implements, both of which were black in color. Hence, the pot is criticizing the kettle for sharing the same trait (in this case, color) the pot does. There's no racial overtones to it at all.

The racial overtone comes from the idea that there is something wrong with being black. The pot is black, the kettle is black. Why would one call the other black if there wasn't something wrong with being black?

I think my version shows just how silly this is. What's wrong with being a cooking utensil? Nothing. Just as there's nothing wrong with being black. Its something that you are.

So, yeah, I think 'the pot calling the kettle black' really is insulting. I also think changing the offensive term points this out in a lighthearted way. Perhaps I'm wrong. Anyone else offended by this phrase?

Also, I wish to apologize to any 'Jimmys' I may have offended. :D

Edward The Head

02-11-2003, 04:14 PM

"It was like I was too dumb to find a seat," Fuller said. Sawyer said fellow passengers snickered at the rhyme, which made her feel alienated.

Yes you were to fucking dumb to find a seat. How hard is it? That and I really really don't think anyone was snickering at you because you are black but it's because you're fucking stupid. Next time learn to find the damn seat and sit the hell down. I think I'm gonna cry now.

Mothchunks

02-11-2003, 04:24 PM

I learned it as "Eenie, meenie, miney, moe
catch a heterosexually challenged drill sergeant with a lisp
by the toe."

The meter works better with tiger.

Sauron

02-11-2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by sperfur
[B]The racial overtone comes from the idea that there is something wrong with being black. The pot is black, the kettle is black. Why would one call the other black if there wasn't something wrong with being black? ... So, yeah, I think 'the pot calling the kettle black' really is insulting.

What? You've got to be kidding.

As you're pointing out, there's no difference if the pot had called the kettle black, a cooking utensil, iron, or Shirley. I think focusing on "black" is an attempt at creating racial overtones where they don't exist. It just so happens that the descriptive term "black" rolls off the tongue easier than either of the others (although personally I'd lobby to change the word to "Shirley" just for the humor factor).

The point of the phrase isn't to imply that there's something wrong with being black; it's that the pot is being either disengenuous or wilfully ignorant. It's a bastardized version of the Biblical injunction to "remove the beam from thine own eye before criticizing the mote in thy neighbor's eye."

Olentzero: It's entirely possible the utensils were blackened from their use in the fire. The cast-iron skillets and other cookware I've seen recently are black straight from the manufacturer, but that could be an effort to recapture that "well-used" look of earlier ironmongery.

Sauron

02-11-2003, 04:34 PM

Crud. I forgot to preview.

Purd Werfect

02-11-2003, 04:55 PM

I'm assuming that they'll find a more palatable refrain such as:

"Fee Fi Fo Fum,
Find a place for your bum."

Of course, this will only be used after it's been ascertained that there are no giants, Englishmen, men named Jack (or women named Jackie), people with a highly pronounced sense of smell, and no hemophiliacs aboard.

In regards to the subthread, I flew Southwest once and probably won't again. This was due to one of the boarding attendants joking over the intercom about one of their flights arriving successfully without crashing into the tarmac. I'm a fan of humor, but joking about plane crashes to people about to board and people about to meet those arriving just didn't seem all that humorous.

D_Odds

02-11-2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by sperfur
The racial overtone comes from the idea that there is something wrong with being black. The pot is black, the kettle is black. Why would one call the other black if there wasn't something wrong with being black?

I think my version shows just how silly this is. What's wrong with being a cooking utensil? Nothing. Just as there's nothing wrong with being black. Its something that you are.

So, yeah, I think 'the pot calling the kettle black' really is insulting. I also think changing the offensive term points this out in a lighthearted way. Perhaps I'm wrong. Anyone else offended by this phrase?

Nope, not at all. Perhaps, however, we should use "the rose calling the carnation red" (assuming both were red). Seasoned cast-iron cookware is naturally black. I've never heard any inferiority infered.

Just Some Guy

02-11-2003, 05:28 PM

"Fee Fi Fo Fum,
Find a place for your bum."

Of course, this will only be used after it's been ascertained that there are no giants, Englishmen, men named Jack (or women named Jackie), people with a highly pronounced sense of smell, and no hemophiliacs aboard.

As a baker I'm insulted by your neglecting to mention us as a group and thus implying that we do want to grind your bones to make our bread. You'll be hearing from my lawyer.

LifeOnWry

02-11-2003, 05:37 PM

I always say "the pot calling the kettle a pot." I have no idea why. I understood the expression to mean that one person was pointing out a characteristic they'd noticed in another person when they had the SAME characteristic and never noticed it in themselves.

And among Scots, "Jimmy" is interchangeable with "buddy" or "pal."

Um. Nope, that was it. I have nothing else.

Purd Werfect

02-11-2003, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Just Some Guy
As a baker I'm insulted by your neglecting to mention us as a group and thus implying that we do want to grind your bones to make our bread. You'll be hearing from my lawyer.

Uh-oh. I'll probably have homeless people after me as well for the use of the word "bum".

Desmostylus

02-11-2003, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by D_Odds
Perhaps, however, we should use "the rose calling the carnation red" (assuming both were red).Fine. Bring communism into it.

sperfur

02-11-2003, 05:57 PM

Sauron, I'm sold. From now on, its the pot calling the kettle Shirley. I like that much better.

CanvasShoes

02-11-2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by auntie em
OK, apparently my sarcasm is not coming through, here. So for the record, I agree (wholeheartedly) that the lawsuit is ridiculous, and I know that tigers don't come from Africa; I was just being silly.

One of the ladies in the article said the little ditty made her feel as if she were "too dumb to pick a seat or something".

I would say "well.....Yeah!!" sit down already, and it has NOTHING to do with your color, but the fact that you got on the plane late, then poked along and took your sweet assed time after everyone ELSE was seated and ready.

Sheesh, some people.

CanvasShoes

02-11-2003, 06:09 PM

Oh, and I never heard the tiger OR the N___ version, our version was catch a ROOSTER by his toe.

Hey!! Don't ask me, we were kids for crying out loud!! Maybe our parents thought that rooster was closer to home, since we had a hen house?

Demise

02-11-2003, 06:09 PM

Born and raised in Texas. Never heard any version besides "tiger" before reading this thread. Plaintiffs should be summarily executed.

That is all.

Apollyon

02-11-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by sperfur
So, yeah, I think 'the pot calling the kettle black' really is insulting. I also think changing the offensive term points this out in a lighthearted way. Perhaps I'm wrong. Anyone else offended by this phrase?
If you wish to find it insulting I guess you have every right to do so... but I thought the idea here was to be fighting ignorance. ;)

Do you also "Call a digging implement a digging implement"? :) (Another elderly phrase that has nothing to do with later perjorative uses of the same word). I don't mean this personally sperfur, just a little hobby-horse of mine.

As to the OP -- yep, the N-version was what I remember from primary school (New Zealand, early-mid 70's), and like mhendo wrote above, it may be because NZ had at the time very, very few african people and the term wasn't (in my memory at least) ever applied to the Maori (native NZers) so it had no weight or real meaning to us. (We also used to say "Injun"). :)

minty green

02-11-2003, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by spooje
Minty? Bricker? Don't look at me, man. I have no idea how this one ever got near a trial. Unless I'm missing something, the judge just fucked it up.

Blalron

02-11-2003, 07:04 PM

I also sometimes say 'that's like the pot calling the kettle a cooking utensil'. I consider it 'updating' the phrase, since I hear people use the term 'black' and don't even realize what that means.

I know exactly what black means, thank you very much. But I'm not, I repeat NOT going to change this idiom. It's origins were not as a racial slur, and I will not stand idly by while the English Language becomes Pussified by Political Correctness.

Essured

02-11-2003, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by mhendo
I grew up in Australia, and the version i remeber from my youth is the "nigger" version.

Could be a regional or generational thing then, because I've grown up in Australia too, and I only knew the 'tiger' version before reading this thread.

sperfur

02-11-2003, 08:21 PM

Actually, I think the English language has already become 'Pussified by Political Correctness'. We've all stood by and let it happen - the lawsuit that began this discussion is just a continuation of something that started long ago.

As it was, I changed the phrase 'cuz I didn't like the old one. (I've already told you why.) I like the new one Sauron suggested even better, so I'll be using that from now on.

As for the 'call a spade a spade' phrase, its not one I've ever used. Not due to political correctness - I just don't like it.

FTR, I'm not suggesting anyone change their idioms. Say whatever you like. I promise not to sue you. :)

However, when I hear someone say 'pot calling the kettle black' or some other phrases that just 'roll off the tounge', I wince. To you, it doesn't mean anything offensive. To me, it does.

It could be because of the politically charged atmosphere where I work. For instance, a coworker's father was fired for saying 'sometimes you have to put a gun to their head to get them to...'. A person I used to work with was suspended for five days for using the phrase 'I'm free, white and 21'. I work in HR. I see this crap crossing my desk. I'm not about to let it happen to me.

Thus endeth the explanation. Carry on.

elmwood

02-11-2003, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by This Year's Model
So, am I the only one who learned the "n" version?

Not really.

I grew up with "tiger" in the early 1970s. It wasn't until about 13 or 14 years ago, when I was first exposed to people my age (Gen Xers) who were born and raised in the South, that a "n____r" version existed. Southern peers tell me they grew up with the "n" version, as well as racist versions of many other childhood calls and nursery rhymes.

tmwster

02-11-2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Zebra
I learned both the tiger and the nigger versions as a kid.

Things I also learned as a kid

Nigger Knocking ringing someone's doorbell and running away. (sort of a form of prank phone calls)

Nigger rig AKA Jury rig to 'fix' something (usually a car) in a non-standard fashion. Like useing bailing wire and duct tape to affix your alternator to the engin.Yup, learned all these same phrases in childhood, and many others that don't bear repeating. However, since I also learned alternative and less offensive versions of all these phrases at the same time, I guess I've always assumed that the less offensive versions were the original, and the rascist versions were sort of made up and referred to in whispers, similar to other mysterious and dirty words, like "butt" and "fart." Which I guess they were, in a way, to a child who had no intellectual comprehension of rascism.

Most of them I had forgotten until now. I certainly wouldn't have automatically associated the "eenie meenie" poem with rascist intent. For some reason, that rhyme has always reminded me of the Three Stooges, since I associated "moe" with Moe, Larry, and Curly/Shemp.

Catamount

02-11-2003, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by This Year's Model
So, am I the only one who learned the "n" version?

No, but apparently I'm the only one who learned the "rabbit" version.

Ruby

02-11-2003, 09:13 PM

Am I the only one here that is grateful that I don't fly on Southwest Airlines?

Nursery rhymes & jingles?

Jesus H. Christ.

Otto

02-11-2003, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Juniper200
Max: I heard that usage from my mom's relatives in southwest Indiana, so I think it's used by dipshits everywhere. Actually I don't remember where I first heard that particular slang for brazil nuts. if I had to put money on it I'd say it was from my grandmother's racist fuck third husband, who thought nothing of teaching his 6 and 8 year-old grandchildren songs about monkeys with no tails and the like. My mother tells stories now of things he used to say and do which would just make her seethe with rage but she kept quiet for fear of poisoning our relationship with him. She's bitter and angry to this day that he is the only person my brother and I ever knew as "grandpa."

Sublight

02-12-2003, 02:57 AM

Another tiger-catcher here, grew up in Boston in the 70's. The first time I ever heard the 'nigger' version was at a family dinner where we were talking with some of the elder Lights about how childhood chants had changed. They liked the 'tiger' version better, but it cleared up some confusion I'd had as to how a tiger can "holler".

We also used potatoes and bubblegum, as well as this one that nobody's mentioned yet:

My mother and your mother,
hanging out the clothes.
My mother punched your mother
right in the nose.
What color was the blood?
(ex: "green")
G-R-E-E-N spells Green
and you are out.

Sublight

02-12-2003, 02:59 AM

Almost forgot: we also used 'nickel' in place of 'tiger'. It made even less sense, but we were more interested in getting turns sorted out than discussing semantics.

InternetLegend

02-12-2003, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by Jackmannii
Son of a gun,
We'll have big fun
On the bayou (that'll be $7 for the sandwich) Not on Southwest, it won't. They don't serve any food besides the peanuts (or sometimes a smooshed package of Lorna Doones).

RenMan, I'm a New Mexican, and I take offense at your insensitive and geographic-areaist gibe about the bubonic plague. You'll be hearing from my lawyer.

Siege

02-12-2003, 05:11 AM

Purd Werfect, you forgot people named John since Jack is sometimes a nickname for people named John.

I called my brother last night to ask him what we said, and he laughed and said he'd seen the story and asked his wife the same thing. He says we used "tiger", although I'm still pretty sure it was "monkey." The first time he heard the "nigger" version was when this story broke. I'd come across it before, but I'm interested in folklore. FTR, we grew up in Pennsylvania during the 70's. Oh, and Sublight, we also used "My mother and your mother."

As I said over in the other thread, in my opinion, the plaintiffs are being ridiculous. More to the point, this makes it harder for those who suffer real racism because it's a little too close to crying "Wolf!" I'm afraid my attitude is, "Grow up and sit down. Worse things happen to better people every day."

Sheeesh!
CJ

MSU 1978

02-12-2003, 07:22 AM

The lawsuit is groundless but give them a case of Brazil nuts as compensation.

zweisamkeit

02-12-2003, 07:27 AM

I used "bubble gum bubble gum" and "one potato two potato", but my version of "my mother and your mother" is different:

My mother and your mother
lived across the way
15, 16 east broadway
every night, they'd have a fight
and this is what they'd say:
icka bricka bracka soda cracker
out - goes - YOU!

I have no idea why a Detroit-area girl grew up with a rhyme talking about 15 and 16 east broadway and mentioning soda crackers (neither of which seems to be local usage). Maybe I learned it from my Grandma, who lived in Pennsylvania until she was married... She's also the one from whom I learned the jump rope rhyme:

Cinderella
dressed in yella
went upstairs to kiss her fella
by mistake she kissed a snake
how many doctors will it take?
(start counting)

As far as the actual lawsuit : :rolleyes:. I grew up with "catch a tiger by its toe" and I haven't seen Pulp Fiction, so the first time I heard it was not originally "tiger" was reading the OP of this thread.

ralph124c

02-12-2003, 08:05 AM

Just how much of outr taxpayer dollars has this NONSENSE already eaten up?
We have to pay the judge's salary, plus the court overhead to listen to this nonsense..can the judge issue a hefty fine to these nincompoops? And, the moronic "lawyer" who filed the complaint should be disbarred!

Baldwin

02-12-2003, 08:32 AM

Hey, good thing the stewardess didn't say:

"Ring around the rosy, pocket full of posy, asses, asses, must all be sat down!!"

Because there might have been some bubonic plague sufferers on board.

Good joke, but the alleged connection between that rhyme and the plague has been pretty much debunked.

Tyger! Tyger! By the toe.
If he hollers, let him go.
What immortal hand or eye...

Wait... wrong poem. Okay:

Eenie, meenie, minie, mo,
Catch a tiger by his toe.
If he hollers, let him go;
Eenie, meenie, minie, mo.

That's the version I learned as a child. Years later, when I learned that the original word was "nigger" rather than "tiger", it finally struck me that tigers don't holler. although they do purr, growl and roar.

In my youth, we used to go to a family restaurant called Sambo's. I think it's still around, but under a different name.

Typo Negative

02-12-2003, 08:38 AM

Are we sure the original word was nigger????

Could it be that some racists long ago put their own slant on it because that word rhymed with tiger???

Baldwin

02-12-2003, 08:45 AM

Oops. My last post is what happens when I only read the first page of a 3-page thread.

Are we sure the original word was nigger????

Could it be that some racists long ago put their own slant on it because that word rhymed with tiger???

I'm fairly sure the original word was "nigger" simply because of the use of "holler", and that "tiger" was substituted later, taking advantage of its similarity in sound. Could be wrong, of course.

Otto

02-12-2003, 10:45 AM

"My mother and your mother"! That's the one I was trying to remember yesterday!

Then there's the one I learned from Monty Python: "Dip dip dip, my little ship, sails on the ocean you are..." Oh wait, I left out a dip. Maybe I should try scissors-paper-stone instead. I have some very good scissors.

mhendo

02-12-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by MSU 1978
The lawsuit is groundless but give them a case of Brazil nuts as compensation.

[Brazilian guy in Simpsons episode]

Here we just call them nuts

[/Brazilian guy]

tisiphone

02-12-2003, 04:28 PM

I learned both versions, the tiger version from my parents, and the n-version from other kids. I (and I suspect most of the other kids) had no idea the word was offensive until I used it in front of my parents and got in trouble. Not many people of African Ancestry in the arctic. Or the subarctic, for that matter.

On the other hand, calling another female a "black squaw" would get you beaten into the dirt. Still will.

Counting rhymes - all the ones mentioned here, plus "Engine, Engine number nine/Goin' down the Chicago line/If the train should jump its track/How many engines put it back?" Kid says number, count out the number, then "My mother said to pick the very best one and you are not it" Then that kid was out.

Or "Mickey Mouse built a house/One brick fell OUT!"

Or everybody just shrieked "Nottit" and the last one to shout was the loser and It.

Biggirl

02-12-2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by davidm
How many of you learned "Ching ching Chinee-man sittin' on a fence, tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents"? There's no denying the racism in that one. But, I'm ashamed to say, as a (white) child I was completely oblivious to it even though I was aware of and hated racism against blacks.

It wasn't a choosing chant, it was a hand game and we sang
Chitty Chitty Bang-Bang
Sitting on a fence
Trying to make a dollar
Out of fifteen cents.
She missed, she missed, she missed like this.

Now a Chinaman sitting on a fence makes more sense than a car, but then there's all that "she" stuff at the end.

Somebody should start a GQ about the origins of these little ditties.

angelicate

02-12-2003, 04:57 PM

I grew up in south Texas and heard only the "tiger" version while growing up (And I imagine I probably would have had my mouth washed out with soap if I'd sang the other one!)
What a ridiculous lawsuit.

As fas as the "my mother, your mother" rhyme goes, I learned it like:
My mother, your mother
lives across the street
18, 19 Alligator street
Every night they fuss and fight
and this is what they say:
Boys are rotton, made out of cotton
Girls are handy (or dandy), made out of candy
Boys go to Jupiter to get more stupider (Yes, I know.)
Girls go to Mars, to get more candy bars (Or "where there's more movie stars.")

I also wasn't supposed to call people stupid when I was little, so I couldn't let mom hear me say that one.

PoorYorick

02-12-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by cjhoworth
More to the point, this makes it harder for those who suffer real racism because it's a little too close to crying "Wolf!" I'm afraid my attitude is, "Grow up and sit down. Worse things happen to better people every day."
I couldn't agree more. When I was in college I saw a campus cop putting a tire boot on a car that was parked in a No Parking zone behind the book store. During this process, the owner, a young black woman, came out of the book store, saw what the cop was doing, and immediately began raising holy hell. She was yelling that he was only booting her car because she was black (like he would have known), she should have known better than to go to a redneck college (University of Oklahoma), etc., etc. She didn't let up -- I mean, she barely took a breath.

She was so loud that a crowd started gathering to see what all the commotion was. Nobody was really showing acitve sympathy (yelling, "Right on, Sister!" or whatever), but you could tell the young (white) cop was getting spooked. His trying to talk with her produced zero results, and he eventually just removed the boot.

The whole episode made me literally sick to my stomach. It's the trivialization that bothers me. I pictured Martin Luther King turning in his grave.

BTW, I grew up in west Texas in the '60's and the "n-version" of Eeny-Meeny-Miney-Mo was the only version I heard until I was a teenager. On the other hand, we were oil field trash: it had it's very own culture.

whiterabbit

02-12-2003, 08:13 PM

I didn't know about the "nigger" version of this until several months ago. I think I might have run across it on this board. I can't say I'm surprised, but I'm amazed at this lawsuit. Growing up mostly in Texas in the 80s I NEVER heard anything but the tiger version.

Though a few people I knew did think the following rhyme was the height of humor -- "I am Chinese, I play joke, I put peepee in your Coke!", recited while pulling your eyes outwards. This always made me slightly uncomfortable, though I didn't quite realize why until everybody outgrew that stuff.

I learned the 'tiger' version of this little diity. I never knew, until I read about the lawsuit, that there were any racist versions of the rhyme. (I am from Alb, NM)

What really pisses me off about the lawsuit is that SouthWest has made it a point to let crews on their flights to have fun with the passengers. The stewardess obviously was trying to make the quick boarding fun. If the stewardess said "Enie Menie Miniey Moe, Hey you Black Bitches sit your N***** asses down" there would be a basis for a lawsuit. My understanding is that the stewardess made the announcement to everyone on the flight. Unless everyone on the flight was Black I cannot see a racist attitude from the stewardess.

Slee

Mothchunks

02-13-2003, 06:45 AM

"The wonderful thing about tiggers
is tiggers are wonderful things
their tops are made out of rubber
their bottoms are made out of springs"

~Tigger, somewhere in the Hundred Acre woods, bouncing

asterion

02-13-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Mothchunks
"The wonderful thing about tiggers
is tiggers are wonderful things
their tops are made out of rubber
their bottoms are made out of springs"

~Tigger, somewhere in the Hundred Acre woods, bouncing

Watch it. I bet you've just offended someone who picked up a rubber ass in Nam or something.

Ben Hicks

02-13-2003, 08:25 AM

Nope, not at all. Perhaps, however, we should use "the rose calling the carnation red"

As a bleeding heart liberal weighed down by the crushing burden of white guilt, I believe I am in a perfect position to condemn this denigrating slur on our Native American population.

Bigot.

Ben Hicks

02-13-2003, 08:27 AM

Oops, forgot the ;)

D_Odds

02-13-2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Ben Hicks
As a bleeding heart liberal weighed down by the crushing burden of white guilt, I believe I am in a perfect position to condemn this denigrating slur on our Native American population.

Bigot.

I'm no bigot - I hate everyone equally :cool:

Malthus

02-13-2003, 03:46 PM

If you have ever cooked over an open fire, you will know *exactly* why "the pot calling the kettle black" is an apt expression.

Not only is it an issue of similarity, but also that crap that builds up on the outside of pots is *seriously* gross - not just a nice black colour, but sticky, greasy, impossible-to-get-off sooty crap.

What is "bad" about it is not the colour, hence racial overtones. What is bad about it is the fact that it is a sooty nuisance. That is why it is "bad".

LouisB

02-13-2003, 04:23 PM

Back in Texas, sometime in the 1940s, I learned the dreaded N-word version. I also learned to call Brazil Nuts the dreaded N-word toes. I am ashamed to admit that I learned the former from my father and the latter at my mother's knee. Until today, I didn't know there was a "tiger" version of that little bit of garbage. For that matter, I didn't know there was ANY other version than the one I learned as a child. I also hate to say that if I heard someone say "eenie, meenie, minee, moe" my brain would automatically complete the thing using the dreaded N-word. So, if I were a black passenger, I might well be mighty pissed about the casual use of the phrase, even if it had a different ending.

For the record, I strive mightily to not use the dreaded N-word, ever. I inflict enough random pain just by moving around and talking; I don't need to inflict any intentionally.

GrandfatherTrout

02-13-2003, 10:50 PM

Grew up in suburban San Francisco in the 1970s and never once heard anything but the tiger version. I had no idea there even were alternative versions of that rhyme until I opened this thread.

This lawsuit is ridiculous. Does it make anybody else think back to that stupidity in Washington DC a while back (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/district27.htm)? I mean, even that incident made more sense. Not in a way that made any sense, but you know what I mean.

sleestak

02-14-2003, 12:08 AM

Another thought. I just saw a commercial for "Joe Millionaire" on Fox. One of the two women left said on the commercial "Enie Menie Miniey Moe, somebody has got to GO!".

Should Fox be sued for that comment? (Fox should be sued for putting this kind of 'reality TV' crap on but that has nothing to do with the OP)

Slee

davidm

02-14-2003, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by LouisB
...I also hate to say that if I heard someone say "eenie, meenie, minee, moe" my brain would automatically complete the thing using the dreaded N-word. So, if I were a black passenger, I might well be mighty pissed about the casual use of the phrase, even if it had a different ending...But you have to keep in mind that MANY people are totally unaware of the N-word version and it's simply wrong to sue or get angry with them about it. I live in an area with a large Black population and interact with people of all races every day. I often hear "eenie meenie miney mo" (I've heard blacks use it!) and I've never heard any complaints.

Rock-n-Rolga

02-14-2003, 11:14 PM

Ok, I grew up in Alabama in the 1970's and only heard the "Tiger" version until I saw Pulp Fiction. But then, I did go to a gifted school in Birmingham with kids from all sorts of different backgrounds, and thus was rather sheltered from seeing true bigotry until we moved to another state in 1984. What a rude awakening that was. :(
And we also used "One potato, two potato" a lot of times. Never heard the "my mother, your mother" thing until reading this thread - it's quite chuckleworthy, though...

elmwood

02-15-2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by Purd Werfect
In regards to the subthread, I flew Southwest once and probably won't again. This was due to one of the boarding attendants joking over the intercom about one of their flights arriving successfully without crashing into the tarmac. I'm a fan of humor, but joking about plane crashes to people about to board and people about to meet those arriving just didn't seem all that humorous.

Try flying Southwest to Buffalo. I've heard two different announcements that seemed unique to the area.

2) (after the turbulence that plagues the region) "We'll be piloting what's left of our plane to the gate ..."

Rilchiam

02-15-2003, 11:31 AM

Boy, does this take me back. Yes, I remember the "bubblegum" and "Cinderella" jump rope rhymes. Except at my school, it was "How many kisses will he give her?" Oops, I guess that falls under the heading of "sexualization of children".

When I was 9 or so, there was a song making the rounds:

I woke up Sunday morning and looked upon the wall
The Bedbugs and the Skeeters were playing a game of ball
The score was six to nothing; the Skeeters were ahead
The Bedbugs hit a homerun and they knocked me out of bed

Singing! Eenie meenie and a
Miney mo
Catch a tiger-tiger by the toe and if he
Hollers, hollers, hollers, let him go
Eenie meenie and a
Miney mo

My friend and I and her little brother were coming home from orchestra one day, and we were particularly hyper, singing this not just for each others' benefit, but also hanging out the car windows and singing it to other people stopped at a red light. This went on until her mom asked if we wanted to stop at Greystone (local mental hospital). We shushed.

And FTR, my friends were Chinese-American. Make of that what you will.

Fretful Porpentine

02-15-2003, 12:36 PM

I remember that song! Except the version I learned had "Catch a whipper-whopper by the toe." There was another verse, too:

My father was a burglar,
My mother was a spy,
And I'm the little ratty who called the FBI...

Can't remember the rest of it, but I'm sure it's quite offensive to members of the criminal classes.

danceswithcats

02-15-2003, 02:15 PM

This will serve as formal notice to all posters in this thread that I am representing both the Pep Boys, and descendants of the Three Stooges, and have filed a damage action seeking redress for the emotional shock, personal injury, loss of consortium, and other damages suffered by my clients owing to the pejorative and repetitive use of the name Moe and other spelling variants thereof, in an unflattering manner.

Pat McGroin, Esq.

ņaņi

02-15-2003, 02:26 PM

I too, only learned the tiger version, and until today did not know of any others.

Now, when I was about 8 or so, there was a rather popular rhyme that involved something like this:

My mom was Chinese! (Pull ends of eyes up)
My dad was Japanese! (Pull ends of eyes down)
Look what it did to me! (Pull one eye up and the other down, creating in a diagonal thing)

Being that my school was excessively WASPy, no one really cared (except my mom. I was forbidden from that rhyme very quickly. Kudos to her).

Growing up in various parts of the UK, I heard three versions of the rhyme; N-word, Tiger and (most commonly) monkey.

CJ: Offhand, I don't remember when you moved to the US, but could you have learned the monkey version in the UK?

LurkMeister

02-15-2003, 06:18 PM

I seem to remember hearing both the "n-word" and the monkey version when I was growing up in Chicago; I honestly can't remember which I'd heard more often, and it may be that the monkey version was supposed to be a substitute for the other one.

I'd also like to add my two cents that some people need to have someone remove the "I'm being discriminated against" stick out of their ass and beat them about the head with it. It's getting to the point where I'm afraid to talk to anyone for fear of being accused of being racist, sexist, etc.

Mehitabel

02-15-2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by ņaņi
I too, only learned the tiger version, and until today did not know of any others.

Now, when I was about 8 or so, there was a rather popular rhyme that involved something like this:

My mom was Chinese! (Pull ends of eyes up)
My dad was Japanese! (Pull ends of eyes down)
Look what it did to me! (Pull one eye up and the other down, creating in a diagonal thing)

Being that my school was excessively WASPy, no one really cared (except my mom. I was forbidden from that rhyme very quickly. Kudos to her).

I must say, I think this was more because of the rhyme than some sort of anti-Asian agenda. It and a couple of other jokes were pretty much the only racist jokes we had on our plates, and they were more dialect jokes than "All _____s are _____" ones.

Dangerosa

02-16-2003, 02:12 PM

I moved around the US as a kid.

Heard the n-word version. Heard the monkey version. Heard the tiger version (which seems to be most common in the US). Seems that sometimes more than one version could be circulating in the same place at the same time.

Mr Kami

02-16-2003, 03:19 PM

growing up near detroit I always thought that tigers reffered to the baseball team. I did not know there was any variations, until just now.

Siege

02-16-2003, 03:52 PM

I was 2 1/2 when we moved to the States, and I'm the oldest and most British of us three kids, so there's a chance Mum could have taught me the monkey version. I'll have to ask her which way she thinks it goes next time I talk to her.

I also remember the Cinderella version, both as a way of picking who was going to be it and as a jump rope rhyme. I also realized I just missed a prime opportunity -- I was at a Mensa Games Night last night, and it would have been a prime chance to ask people what variation they used. On the other hand, there are other ways. I think I might make use of one and report back.

CJ

zoogirl

02-16-2003, 04:52 PM

I was raised here in the south-west corner of Canada, late Sixties, early Seventies. I hate to say it but I think I knew the "n" version before the "tigger". We also called Brazil nuts "n-toes" and jelly babies "n-babies". I don't remember actually knowing a Black person until Highschool. She was the only one there, too. My kids learned "tigger."

We had the Chinese-Japanese thing too. Our version involved pulling up one eyelid, pulling down the other and saying "My mother was Chinese, my father was Japanese and I'm a mixed up kid!"

We also had a Sambo's resturaunt just up Kingsway. I remember it well because I barfed strawberry waffle in their bathroom. I was about ten and there was just more waffle than stomach!

I wouldn't say "N---" now if someone put a gun to my head. I've got to agree the whole PC thing is getting totally out of hand, though. The big thing around here this year was avoiding the word "Christmas". The provincial government wanted to put up a "Holiday Tree" in front of the Legislature buildings in Victoria, a number of stores forbade their employee's from wishing customers "Merry Christmas" and schools had "Winterfest" or Holiday" parties. The interesting thing is, most of the protests against this crap came from our large population of non-Christian residents. They seemed to almost universally feel that Christians have a perfect right to call our holiday by it's proper name. The goverment finally backed down, btw.

On another note, I had a look at an original copy of Robert Louis Stevens book of poems for the very young. Whatta shock! Talk about racist! I'm always shocked by 'ol Dame Agatha too. Product of their time, I guess, but still a jolt.

easy e

02-16-2003, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by sperfur
A person I used to work with was suspended for five days for using the phrase 'I'm free, white and 21'.

Maybe I'm incredibly naive, or maybe I'm just incredibly insensitive, but am I the only one who thought this was maybe a bit of an overreaction?

sperfur

02-16-2003, 11:27 PM

Personally, I thought firing the guy for saying 'You've got to put a gun to their head to get them to do anything' was a lot worse. 'Free, white and 21' is (IMO) widely recognized as a racist phrase.

Of course, no one agreed with me that 'the pot calling the kettle black' was racist, so what do I know? :)

Shodan

02-17-2003, 10:55 AM

We always did the "tiger" version. My grandmother, the dearest, sweetest woman on earth, was the one who accidentally taught us the "n****r' version when she played kick-the-can with us once.

She also told me once that she referred to Brazil nuts using the same terms as Otto mentioned. I grew up in Wisconsin, so it may have been a regional thing.

My grandmother did not have a mean or racist bone in her body - she just grew up in a different era. And she did her best to overcome it. It just seems to have slipped out, unmodified, from her youth when we put our feet in to pick who was going to be It.

Regards,
Shodan

Another Primate

02-17-2003, 12:17 PM

Eeny-meanie-miney-moe,
Catch a sailor by the toe,
If he hollers let him go
Out goes Y-O-U, with a dirty dish rag in your eye.

(Or if he hollers, make him pay
Fifty dollars every day)

Hamlet

07-02-2004, 01:27 PM

I sure hope I'm not pissing off the mods, but this is the second old thread I've revived today to give an update.

Here's the AP story (http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/7765190.htm).

The sisters who sued Southwest in this case lost. There's your news update.

But I also have to rant about Carol Fuller. Because that fucking idiot had the balls to say this after the jury verdict:

""If we had jurors of our peers then we would have won the case today, and we should have won the case today, with all the evidence shown," she said.

"It's a shame that the jury pool we had to draw from did not have one black and not one minority," she said. "Something has to be done to make sure there is justice in America for blacks."

Listen carefully Carol. You are a thin-skinned, stupid, obnoxious, racist piece of garbage who went out of her way to be offended and attempted to cause a woman to lose her livelihood so you could get some free money. You filed your dumbass friviolous lawsuit, wasted everyone's time and money, and made yourself look like a complete idiot. Now, most people would cut their losses and go on their merry little way. But not you. You had to accuse the jurors, the judge, and the system of being racist. 'Cause the jury couldn't possibly consider the case on the merits, right you ignorant bitch? Since the jury was white, they couldn't possibly have considered the stupidity of your suit, and instead had to be racists who hate all black people? They had to rule against you because you're black? Fuck that.

And fuck you.

Skywatcher

07-02-2004, 02:19 PM

I think Carol needs to change her name to Fuller-Schitt.

lissener

07-02-2004, 02:42 PM

b. 1963, Texas. OWNED a copy of Little Black Sambo. Ate at the restaurant called Sambo's, before it became Denny's. Learned the N version of EMMM.

lissener

07-02-2004, 02:46 PM

Hmm. The flight attendant is from Texas. I have a hard time believing she was unaware of the N version. Kids in the schoolyard and all. But mabye I'm just irredeemably cynical.

Spree

07-02-2004, 02:56 PM

Hmm. The flight attendant is from Texas. I have a hard time believing she was unaware of the N version. Kids in the schoolyard and all. But mabye I'm just irredeemably cynical.

I'm from Texas (born here and lived here my entire life) and I sure never heard the N version until this lawsuit. And I'm 7 years older than the flight attendant. Just so's you know. :)

lissener

07-02-2004, 03:06 PM

Well, there you have it. Surprises me though. I find it pretty hard to believe that such a usage was utterly, utterly wiped out, in Texas, in the 70s. Amazing.

Liberal

07-02-2004, 03:14 PM

Aw, did da iddy biddy weftist's cawicatuah bwow up?

Spavined Gelding

07-02-2004, 03:31 PM

Aw, did da iddy biddy weftist's cawicatuah bwow up?

Is that just a gratuity, Lib, or do you have a point?

Skywatcher

07-02-2004, 03:50 PM

Is that just a gratuity, Lib, or do you have a point?Spillover from this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264062&page=1&pp=50), I'd say.

Liberal

07-02-2004, 03:57 PM

Is that just a gratuity, Lib, or do you have a point?You and I agree about Kent State. We need not be enemies.

Spree

07-02-2004, 04:43 PM

Well, there you have it. Surprises me though. I find it pretty hard to believe that such a usage was utterly, utterly wiped out, in Texas, in the 70s. Amazing.

Eh - not utterly wiped out, by any means, I'm sure. Just not so common that you'd expect anyone/everyone in Texas to have heard it, you know?

Although it may have been my upbringing. The one time (that I remember) my grandmother using the N word (I was about 8), my hick, small-town, country father put a stop to that language right quick. So I really didn't grow up around that sentiment.

hajario

07-02-2004, 05:09 PM

b. 1963, Texas. OWNED a copy of Little Black Sambo. Ate at the restaurant called Sambo's, before it became Denny's. Learned the N version of EMMM.

Denny's was always Denny's. Sambo's became The Hungry Tiger.

The original Sambo's is still called Sambo's. The owners kept it when the rest were sold although they did sell even that place later. It's right here in Santa Barbara. The founders were two guys named Sam and Bob, they combined their names to get the name of their restaurants. A few years ago, Bob's grandson bought the place back.

Haj

Cisco

07-02-2004, 05:15 PM

Aw, did da iddy biddy weftist's cawicatuah bwow up?

[Speaking completely objectively]

What, literally, are you trying to say? I got "Aww, did the itty bitty leftist's..." and then you lost me.

cheddarsnax

07-02-2004, 05:18 PM

...caricature blow up?

You and I agree about Kent State. We need not be enemies.
Whaa?

Cisco

07-02-2004, 05:20 PM

...caricature blow up?

That's what I was thinking but how does it fit in the context of this thread, or did I miss something?

cheddarsnax

07-02-2004, 05:23 PM

That's what I was thinking but how does it fit in the context of this thread, or did I miss something?
I'm thinking Lib was responding to lissener's comment:Well, there you have it. Surprises me though. I find it pretty hard to believe that such a usage was utterly, utterly wiped out, in Texas, in the 70s. Amazing.

Chefguy

07-02-2004, 05:59 PM

It ain't just a southern problem. I learned the racial version from other kids while growing up in Juneau, Alaska. I can only assume they got it from their parents. Of course, we're all immigrants from other parts up here (Native peoples excluded, of course).

Unregistered Bull

07-02-2004, 07:11 PM

Yeah, me too. Quite a shock really. Kind of like learning how "to gyp" was an ethnic slur very much like "to Jew". Lots of my friends still say "what a gyp!", without meaning any harm towards Gypsies in the slightest. Hopefully a situation will never arise where an uninformed stewardess will need to say "gyp" over the PA system.

Note: I am not excusing the use of "gyp". It is indeed an ethnic slur. All I'm saying is we to respond by educating, not suing. A lawsuit should be last resort.

AFAIK "Gypsy" is considered a racial slur now too by at least some Romani people.

FWIW I learned the "nigger" version (B. 1970) before the "tiger." My niece and nephew (4 and 9) learned the "tiger" version, and I don't believe know the "nigger" version.

In other related PC news, a landmark in my state called "Nigger Hill" recently had its name changed to "Buffalo Soldier Hill." It was a location where some Buffalo Soldiers, black calvary soldiers who fought Native Americans (is Indian now totally un-PC?) died in 1877. Cause of death, in the news article anyway, was listed as dying of thirst or at the hands of Comanches.

tomndebb

07-02-2004, 07:20 PM

I sure hope I'm not pissing off the mods, but this is the second old thread I've revived today to give an update. A suggestion, then:
open a new thread, providing a link to the old thread. (This will keep us geezers from having to grab the nitro tablets when an ancient ghost appears on our monitors--particularly, a multi-page ghost such as this one.)

GorillaMan

07-02-2004, 07:28 PM

AFAIK "Gypsy" is considered a racial slur now too by at least some Romani people.
I've heard this before (on this board), but I'm sure it's either a misunderstanding or an urban legend. Misunderstanding because it is inappropriate to use 'gypsy' (lower case) to refer to all travellers, rather than 'Gypsy' (upper case) for Roma. (In comparison, it's like calling Canadians American...)

Urban legend, because, well, I've yet to see an example of somebody actually complaining about Roma being called Gypsy.

Unregistered Bull

07-02-2004, 08:09 PM

I've heard this before (on this board), but I'm sure it's either a misunderstanding or an urban legend. Misunderstanding because it is inappropriate to use 'gypsy' (lower case) to refer to all travellers, rather than 'Gypsy' (upper case) for Roma. (In comparison, it's like calling Canadians American...)

Urban legend, because, well, I've yet to see an example of somebody actually complaining about Roma being called Gypsy.

I heard it from a Romani scrap metal dealer on America's Most Wanted (TV program). He had the same name (and profession) as another Romani man wanted for some serious crimes (including murder). He seemed quite adamant about it and referred to it as an insult to all Romani people. Heck if I know :confused: Any Romani posters out there?

infamousmom

07-02-2004, 08:24 PM

So, am I the only one who learned the "n" version? In Virginia, circa 1963. .

I learned the "n" version in the same place at the same time. I'm glad it was my brother and not me who got his mouth washed out with soap for saying it. My parents wouldn't allow that kind of language either.

Typo Negative

07-02-2004, 08:53 PM

I spent my fomative years in Ohio and Tenessee, and never heard the 'n' version until the debut of this thread. And I knew quite a few racist assholes there. So I guess that version wasn't as widespread as some would have us believe.

But this:Fuller said she suffered a small seizure on the flight home, which said was triggered by the remark. Later at home, she said she had a grand mal seizure and was bedridden for three days. deseves a special kick in the ass.

Cisco

07-03-2004, 12:08 AM

I've heard this before (on this board), but I'm sure it's either a misunderstanding or an urban legend.

I'm not saying it is an urban legend but I'm not ready to believe yet either. I know 'squaw' being offensive is/was an urban legend and a very harmful one at that.

tomndebb

07-03-2004, 12:23 AM

According to Kal (who is of that group) "Gypsy" can be seen as offensive (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4608049#post4608049). Kal has also provided some nuanced commentary in this post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3712274#post3712274) and in this post with citations (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3709557#post3709557).

Bad News Baboon

07-03-2004, 01:17 AM

I was born in '71 and I had never heard of the non-tiger version until this thread. I, too, grew up in Texas. My husband, born '69 in Texas, had heard of it.

Maybe it depends on the part of Texas. I don't recall as much racism in west Texas as I seem to encounter here in DFW.

MidnightRadio

07-03-2004, 09:31 AM

Hmm. The flight attendant is from Texas. I have a hard time believing she was unaware of the N version. Kids in the schoolyard and all. But mabye I'm just irredeemably cynical.I was born in 1976 and raised in the Tulsa, Oklahoma, area and I never heard the racist version of the rhyme until I read about the Southwest incident, so I think it's possible. But even if she'd heard the racist version at some point in her life, she may have thought that it wasn't the "definitive" version, just a racist alteration.

Aw, did da iddy biddy weftist's cawicatuah bwow up?It would behoove you to remember that many of us on the left also support freedom of speech and oppose frivolous lawsuits like this, believing that this sort of stupidity detracts from real inequities and draws attention from real cases of racism. Furthermore, in this very thread, quite a few of the people who have strongly criticized the complainants in this case have been people of the left.

Liberal

07-03-2004, 11:05 AM

I do not dislike, nor do I mock, everyone on the left. There are leftists who are greatly to be admired. Like yourself, for example. But those who have presumed that everyone in Texas is a bigot and are surprised to learn otherwise are not in your esteemed company.

Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party

07-03-2004, 11:07 AM

And among Scots, "Jimmy" is interchangeable with "buddy" or "pal."

:confused:

I've never heard any Scotsman say that.

mhendo

07-03-2004, 11:15 AM

I do not dislike, nor do I mock, everyone on the left. There are leftists who are greatly to be admired. Like yourself, for example. But those who have presumed that everyone in Texas is a bigot and are surprised to learn otherwise are not in your esteemed company.Ah-ha!

You see, in the absence of any other context in your post, i assumed that your sarcasm was directed at the women litigants, and that you were assuming that they were "weftists."

Also, i think most people were just genuinely trying to figure out if/when the "nigger" usage faded away. Lissener, at whom your post now seems to have been most closely directed, said:I find it pretty hard to believe that such a usage was utterly, utterly wiped out, in Texas, in the 70s.Well, to tell you the truth, i'd be pretty surprised too if that were the case. It doesn't mean that i think that all Texans are bigots; only that some (perhaps a very small minority) are. But hell, every state its share.

Mockingbird

07-03-2004, 11:39 AM

Yeah, yeah, I know--but then how do you explain Little Black Sambo? :p

Well, he was a mascot for a breakfast chaih that made damn fine pancakes.

:D ;)

I've heard tiger, n*****, and asshole used in the eeny meanie rhyme.

Some people just look to be offended because all they can see is 'their oppression.'

:rolleyes:

Johnny L.A.

07-03-2004, 12:19 PM

Denny's was always Denny's. Sambo's became The Hungry Tiger.
In SoCal, Sambo's became "Seasons Friendly Eating". (As opposed to what? "Malevolent Eating"? "Vicious Eating"? "Not Very Nice At All Eating"?)

interface2x

07-03-2004, 01:47 PM

I was born in 1976 and raised in the Tulsa, Oklahoma, area and I never heard the racist version of the rhyme until I read about the Southwest incident, so I think it's possible.

OFF TOPIC WARNING!!

My mom lives in, and grew up in, Sand Springs. I've never noticed a doper from there before. That is all.

Oh, and I grew up in Northern Illinois (b. 1977) and had never heard the offending version before this thread, either.

Glory

07-03-2004, 01:54 PM

I was born in '71 and I had never heard of the non-tiger version until this thread. I, too, grew up in Texas. My husband, born '69 in Texas, had heard of it.

Maybe it depends on the part of Texas. I don't recall as much racism in west Texas as I seem to encounter here in DFW.

Born in '69, spent most of my childhood in San Antonio and then returned to Dallas for many years as an adult. I've only ever heard the "tiger" version.

Take a look at the first 2 listed on that SERP. Both are lyrics to songs containing the phrase recorded by *black* musicians. From that I have to conclude that not all blacks consider that phrase offensive when the N word isn't used along with it.

The Real Straight Dupe

07-03-2004, 05:47 PM

The real problem here, which none of you cowards can express because it's vitally imperative to protect your posting rights on Straight Dope...I know, is another instance of the black "man" trying to earn white money without doing the work.....again. It's nothing new, but it is tiresome. Jesus! Even Cosby basically expressed his frustration with the black race (Rev. Jackson supported him)...AND THEY'RE BLACK. But he's also a genius who is not afraid of the black activists. The enablers, of course, are the liberal activist judges who allow this crap into their courtroom without regard for the price-tag of casual litigation. It makes me fucking sick. But what makes me REALLY FUCKING SICK is that we can't even talk about it in our 'free speech' society. Cracker and nigger are ok but only if said by another black person. And the whites are un-contentious. They are big fat white placaters.

It's a sad state. It really is. A lot of the blacks in a lot of my classes talk through the teaching, most times so much so that it becomes difficult or impossible to hear the teacher. They snap there gum loudly while a lesson is going on. They sneeze louder than any human should have a right to and they talk like a 2 year old with Downs Syndrome and epilepsy. And I can imagine how poor most of their grades must be. This is not grade school nor even high school. Sadly, it's at a major university. (And yes, part of your taxes are funding both their education and their eeny meenie lawsuits). I can't wait to get to the higher level classes when the blacks begin to phase out to their individual manual labor service career education tracks.

But everything's ok in whitedom as long as Mr. Johnson has a blue-collar house with his blue-collar fence designed to keep the black man out. Why don't whites live in urban black ghettos? Not even the egregiously poor whites. Whites don't want to say out loud that they abhor the black lifestyle but also don't want to have to live with them either.

The typical white American is very, very lazy and very, very stupid. They don't know how to raise children...yet they do...and it's condemning the future. These disingenuous children will soon graduate high school and even college, without the minimum requisite education, knowledge, skills, critical thinking, common sense or social aptitude needed to do what is prudent in a functional society. They will have critical positions in our society, and that is scary. They will have these positions not because of their brilliance, but because we lack a suitable substitute. America will be fucked by a shortage of manpower one day; but most of you can't see this. Your X-box, your baseball, your football, your evening T.V. line-up prevent you from seeing this. Your television shines so brightly in your homes every night that it's blinding you. It's holding you captive and you don't even know it. It's why you can't speak the truth on this message board. It's why you can post only about convertible pick-up trucks, pants pockets on the left and barns painted red. It's what society and your parents have conditioned to think about. So your best response to the OP becomes: "I've only heard the tiger version. I guess I'll have to be very carefull." or "I had no idea there was a "racist" version of this. I knew tiger - that is all. You guys think that's bad, though ... wait until they try to use "Duck Duck Goose"!!!---duh-huh, duh-huh.

I know some of you morons will argue against this post because reputation and message board status is more important to you than these issues....poor dumb son-of-a-bitches. But please don't respond with an attack on my grammar or punctuation just because you're a moron who knows nothing, is afraid to think and would rather duck scary issues by arguing crappy grammar.

For those of you that agree with me but won't say it here: I am glad I could speak for all of you on this message board who know this is the truth but are to oblivious or to cowardly to say so.

This post will be purged soon, of course....must keep this board devoid of real truth; and keep the language neat and tidy.

Liberal

07-03-2004, 05:56 PM

I doubt your post will be purged. And so long as you conduct yourself according to the rules of the board, you won't be banned. I've never seen anyone banned for a point of view. I think you're wrong about most of what you say, but if you clean up the language and make an actual point, you can open a thread in Great Debates and see how your defense holds up.

1010011010

07-03-2004, 06:56 PM

I was in Texas until I was five, in Florida for about a year and a half, then lived in Tennessee... I first heard the "nigger version" some time in TN. I was far more fond of "pick a number" for making arbitrary choices as a child.

Reminds me of this. (http://www.shadowuniv.com/excerpts-wb1.html)

WaryEri

07-03-2004, 08:04 PM

I learned the tiger version as a kid, used it faithfully until some neighbour boys used the other version in front of me when I was 6 or 7, still had no idea what it meant but assumed I'd been the one saying it wrong. Fortunately, the next time I recited the rhyme was in front of my mother, who made it quite clear that the "correction" I'd made was wrong and hurtful. I had no idea what the word meant until I said it in front of her and she explained why I should never say it again.

15 years ago in Nfld, for what it's worth ( which probably ain't much, Newfoundland not being much of a hotbed of racial tension).

Jackmannii

07-03-2004, 08:15 PM

Big Fat White Placaters -

Band Name!

It is always refreshing to see a new poster who hates everybody. They snap there gum loudly...Wait, I'm not supposed to invoke poor grammar. Sorry. But why are the "typical white American" children "disingenuous"?

For those of you that agree with me but won't say it here: I am glad I could speak for all of you on this message board who know this is the truth but are to oblivious or to cowardly to say so.

.
Perhaps you will find more support over at Stormfront?

Rilchiam

07-03-2004, 11:21 PM

I know some of you morons will argue against this post because reputation and message board status is more important to you than these issues....poor dumb son-of-a-bitches. But please don't respond with an attack on my grammar or punctuation just because you're a moron who knows nothing, is afraid to think and would rather duck scary issues by arguing crappy grammar.

Wow...just wow. You really showed us. I am completely humbled. Thank you for shining the light of truth on my unworthy, tiny mind.

mhendo

07-04-2004, 12:27 AM

This post will be purged soon, of course....must keep this board devoid of real truth; and keep the language neat and tidy.Actually, virtually no posts are ever purged from this board, and those that are usually violate some rule regarding the use of copyrighted material, or fall under potential legal problem areas such as slander or libel.

Stupidity like yours is usually left firmly in place for the general amusement of passers-by.

Audrey Levins

07-04-2004, 12:50 AM

Another native South Texan, 26 years old, who never heard the "real" version of EMMM until several years ago when it came up in a conversation a lot like this thread.

We always said "tigger," though. Not "tiger." I guess b/c it rhymes better with the original version. Like most rhymes, the reasoning behind it, or lack thereof, was rarely explored.

Speaking of bigoted children's games/rhymes, though, Mr. Levins says he remembers playing "Smear the Queer" on the playground. (He's 34.) Basically it was a boys' version of tag, where you tried to catch whoever was "it," but then you also beat the crap out of them because they were "queer." He says he had no idea what "queer" even meant. All he knew was that he didn't want to be it, b/c it's no fun getting your ass kicked.

Anybody else ever heard of this? It was news to me. I do remember walking hand-in-hand in first grade with my best friend and being called "gay," but it took me several more years to discover what it meant.

And no one else has mentioned the most bizarre hand-clap "patty cake" rhyme I remember from my years on the black-top at school. All the girls in my elementary classes knew it but I have no idea where it came from or what the hell it means. We loved it; you started out doing the accompanying hand-interaction really slowly, and then you said it/did it over and over again, faster and faster, until you or your partner screwed up.

Ya'll all seem to have heard only a shortened, cleaned up version of EMMM.

As a kid growing up in south Louisiana in the mid to late 70's, the version I most often heard went like this:

Eenie meenie meinie mo
Catch a nigger by his toe
If he hollers make him pay
Fifty dollars every day.
My mommie told me to go to
the store and pick the very
best one and you are not it.

The one we used most often (my friends and family) was the potato one, but I heard the other often enough at school - as well as the tigger and tiger versions.

I also shudder to think what kind of reaction some of the other things I heard as a kid would get today. Consider this one that was often used to complain about a teacher:

Glory, glory hallelujah, the teacher hit me with a ruler. I met her at the gate with a loaded 38 and she ain't my teacher no more.

Scary shit, I'm tellin' ya.

We also played "smear the queer" in Little Rock, Arkansas. It seems to have been a little different, though. We played it as a version of "all against all football." The "queer" was the guy with the football, and everybody else tried to tackle him. He had the option to throw the ball to someone else, and whoever he threw it to HAD to catch it. If he didn't, the other guys would make fun of him - too wimpy to catch a ball, etc. It took a tough guy to hold onto the ball and stagger towards a touch down with six or seven other kids trying to bring him down.

Great green gobs of greasy grimey gopher guts, eyeballs rolling down the street. Too bad I don't have my spoon so that I can eat, but I've got my straw. SSLLLUUUUURRRRRPPPP!

Baldwin

07-04-2004, 04:00 PM

Posted by Lib:
Aw, did da iddy biddy weftist's cawicatuah bwow up?
And a bit later...
I do not dislike, nor do I mock, everyone on the left. There are leftists who are greatly to be admired. Like yourself, for example. But those who have presumed that everyone in Texas is a bigot and are surprised to learn otherwise are not in your esteemed company.
Then why did you specify "weftist" in your mocking? Explain, please, because I'd hate to be left thinking that you're just full of shit.

Liberal

07-04-2004, 04:39 PM

Unless, of course, The Dupe is a sock.But that would be against the rules.

Then why did you specify "weftist" in your mocking?I made a point of his leftism because he routinely takes the posture of a leftist and mocks my libertarianism. It is something between him and me. Your taking offense would be inappropriate.

Cisco

07-04-2004, 06:00 PM

Speaking of bigoted children's games/rhymes, though, Mr. Levins says he remembers playing "Smear the Queer" on the playground. (He's 34.) Basically it was a boys' version of tag, where you tried to catch whoever was "it," but then you also beat the crap out of them because they were "queer." He says he had no idea what "queer" even meant. All he knew was that he didn't want to be it, b/c it's no fun getting your ass kicked.

Anybody else ever heard of this? It was news to me.

We played this all the time when I was a kid and even back then I knew the difference between queer = gay and queer = different. In smear the queer, the "queer" was the only guy that had the ball, therefore he was different; queer. It had nothing to do with homosexuality.

Larry Mudd

07-04-2004, 06:34 PM

In smear the queer, the "queer" was the only guy that had the ball, therefore he was different; queer. It had nothing to do with homosexuality.Our version of that game was charmingly called "Bag the fag."

Atticus Finch

07-04-2004, 07:04 PM

Yeah, yeah, I know--but then how do you explain Little Black Sambo?
Sambo was supposedly Indian. Thus the tigers and the references to ghee. Indians were often considered to be 'black' in those days. The way that Sambo is drawn (in the version I had as a kid, anyway) IS a stereotypical black caricature, but I suppose that arose from a misunderstanding by the illustrator, or the illustrator just not giving a damn about accuracy.

Liberal

07-05-2004, 04:57 AM

It would behoove you to remember that many of us on the left also support freedom of speech and oppose frivolous lawsuits like this, believing that this sort of stupidity detracts from real inequities and draws attention from real cases of racism. Furthermore, in this very thread, quite a few of the people who have strongly criticized the complainants in this case have been people of the left.For you and others concerned about left/right classifications and caricatures, your absence from the thread below is conspicuous.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264873

What a sorry, right wing, neo-nazi fuckwad this guy is.

mhendo

07-05-2004, 09:16 AM

For you and others concerned about left/right classifications and caricatures, your absence from the thread below is conspicuous.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264873What, am i supposed to trawl the Boards now looking for misuse of political classifications?

If your point is that the term "right wing" is not synonymous with "neo-nazi," "racist," or "bigoted," then i agree with you.

But, given that you've obviously visited the thread, why did you not point out the taxonomic problems with Chefguy's post? Had i stumbled across the thread myself, i might have done so. But i am not, on principle, going to march over there and do it just to satisfy your apparent desire that i demonstrate ideological consistency.

The Real Straight Dupe

07-05-2004, 04:33 PM

Big Fat White Placaters -

Band Name!

It is always refreshing to see a new poster who hates everybody. Wait, I'm not supposed to invoke poor grammar. Sorry. But why are the "typical white American" children "disingenuous"?

I'm sorry. "They snap, loudly, their gum." Correct in all three (spelling, grammar and form). The wholly trinity. Thanks for solidifying my claim.

The Real Straight Dupe

07-05-2004, 06:27 PM

Actually, virtually no posts are ever purged from this board, and those that are usually violate some rule regarding the use of copyrighted material, or fall under potential legal problem areas such as slander or libel.

Stupidity like yours is usually left firmly in place for the general amusement of passers-by.

It's a laugh how everyone assumes I'm white. Say hello to all of your black friends in simple town.

The Real Straight Dupe

07-05-2004, 06:31 PM

P.S. Sorry for the moderate highjack. I don't want to labeled a troll. Continue talking about bubble gum in a dish.

Liberal

07-05-2004, 06:32 PM

It's a laugh how everyone assumes I'm white.Who said you're white?

mhendo

07-05-2004, 06:34 PM

It's a laugh how everyone assumes I'm white. Say hello to all of your black friends in simple town.Show me where i assumed that you're white.

If you'll read my post, the only assumption i made was that you are stupid, and you provided more that enough evidence to warrant such an assumption.

UncleBill

07-05-2004, 07:01 PM

Ignoring our esteemed guest...

One of the defendents stated there were NO Blacks or other Minorities in the JURY POOL, not just on the jury. That is very odd. At least I hope it is.

Frank

07-05-2004, 07:06 PM

For you and others concerned about left/right classifications and caricatures, your absence from the thread below is conspicuous.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264873
None of those terms are synonymous. Replace the commas with "and"s and see if that makes interpreting a rhetorical device any easier for you.

The Real Straight Dupe

07-05-2004, 07:12 PM

Show me where i assumed that you're white.

If you'll read my post, the only assumption i made was that you are stupid.

No. You said "your stupidity," like I owned it...carried it my wallet or something. Read your own post. Is calling me stupid your logical counter to my assertion? Please tell me that was not the best thought to enter your brain. People say the best things they can think of, and yours was "your stupid." nice playground politics. how do you deal with other issues? "Your lame?" "Your retarded." What? You seem the be the only stupid one here.

Frank

07-05-2004, 07:21 PM

You seem the be the only stupid one here.
I must rise in mhendo's defense. He is by no means the only stupid one here. Wait, that didn't come out right.

Oh, when come back? Bring apostrophes. And "e"s.

High Cheese

07-05-2004, 07:31 PM

Oh, when come back? Bring apostrophes. And "e"s.

LOL! I think the whole part about the "possessive stupidity" zoomed right by you. Or you didn't read it. Or you're funnin' us.

Back to the topic: Anyone know where the "trial" was held?

Frank

07-05-2004, 07:55 PM

LOL! I think the whole part about the "possessive stupidity" zoomed right by you. Or you didn't read it. Or you're funnin' us.
Oh, dear. Read much? Here is mhendo's actual statement:
Stupidity like yours is usually left firmly in place for the general amusement of passers-by.
So first off, by saying
You said "your stupidity," ... was misquoting the post. The word "your" is correctly used here. Second off, TRSD goes on to say
People say the best things they can think of, and yours was "your stupid."
Here, from context, he/she/it clearly means "you are stupid". The same with the lame and retarded versions. The word "your" is incorrectly used in all three places.

My smartass remark stands.

Back to the topic: Anyone know where the "trial" was held?
The dateline on the article linked to by Hamlet is Kansas City, Kansas.

Lynn Bodoni

07-05-2004, 08:22 PM

You know, I don't believe that this thread has a real point any longer. So I'm closing it.