Gatehawk wrote:Well unless Sunderland makes some kind of change, I can't see them even challenging Szczesny's net anymore in this game, they're finding it difficult just to get the ball out of their half.

Its almost sad to see the PL at this state of mediocrity. There are maybe 4-5 really world class players in the league right now (Suarez, RvP, Aguero and Bale who may be the 3rd best player in the world at the moment) the PL is suffering from thus lack of genuine talent and may lose more players in the summer. Not only do Bale and Suarez need to stay but PL teams need to attract more talent. It wont be hard with the dram of the German league, the three Spanish teams and FFP

Uncle Si wrote:Its almost sad to see the PL at this state of mediocrity. There are maybe 4-5 really world class players in the league right now (Suarez, RvP, Aguero and Bale who may be the 3rd best player in the world at the moment) the PL is suffering from thus lack of genuine talent and may lose more players in the summer. Not only do Bale and Suarez need to stay but PL teams need to attract more talent. It wont be hard with the dram of the German league, the three Spanish teams and FFP

I think it's more that the EPL was due for a down year, mostly after last season.

Uncle Si wrote:Its almost sad to see the PL at this state of mediocrity. There are maybe 4-5 really world class players in the league right now (Suarez, RvP, Aguero and Bale who may be the 3rd best player in the world at the moment) the PL is suffering from thus lack of genuine talent and may lose more players in the summer. Not only do Bale and Suarez need to stay but PL teams need to attract more talent. It wont be hard with the dram of the German league, the three Spanish teams and FFP

I blame Chelsea and City for the lack of talent. Overseas clubs now seem to be adding £10 million to the value of their players because these reckless chumps have shown that they're prepared to pay it. They appear to believe that all English clubs are in the same financial situation. For clubs who are actually concerned with staying solvent the top young talent is much harder to find at a sensible pric than it was 6 - 7 years ago.

There is no logic in "the league is due". Yes it ended fantastically last year. The two top teams combined for the highest point total in decades. But that can't mask the clear issue thatother leagues are putting out a better product, even last year. While City-United was a great end.... where was the drama in the rest of the league? And how has that dram led to an influx of new talent? It hasn't. While I should add Mata to that list of world class players the league did lose Modric. Chelsea won the Champs league but was massively outplayed by Bayern and Barca. The English teams this year are underdogs in their upcoming ties.

I agree with Spur... City and Chelsea may have pushed the league to untenable heights of spending. But there is something else. Neymar, Lucas, Falcoa are not even considering the PL. Pep passed up obvious openings at City, Chelsea and maybe United for Germany. Bale and Suarez may be leaving. They will no doubt be well sought after in Spain this summer.

Uncle Si wrote:There is no logic in "the league is due". Yes it ended fantastically last year. The two top teams combined for the highest point total in decades. But that can't mask the clear issue thatother leagues are putting out a better product, even last year. While City-United was a great end.... where was the drama in the rest of the league? And how has that dram led to an influx of new talent? It hasn't. While I should add Mata to that list of world class players the league did lose Modric. Chelsea won the Champs league but was massively outplayed by Bayern and Barca. The English teams this year are underdogs in their upcoming ties.

I agree with Spur... City and Chelsea may have pushed the league to untenable heights of spending. But there is something else. Neymar, Lucas, Falcoa are not even considering the PL. Pep passed up obvious openings at City, Chelsea and maybe United for Germany. Bale and Suarez may be leaving. They will no doubt be well sought after in Spain this summer.

I was thinking of the action-reaction thing. Last season was one of the most exciting seasons of the EPL, so I feel it could have been that this season is the result of it and the EPL is suffering while trying to follow up that and it's just not happening this season.

I think there's a number of reasons why those 3 players are turning down the EPL, but I don't really think it's solely because they don't want to. With Falcao, Atletico is actually in title contention in La Liga, though Barca don't look like they're gonna lose it, so it could be Atletico is refusing to sell him at the moment. Neymar, it's really anyone's guess as to his true reasoning. Lucas, it was simply a case of PSG offering more than United and other EPL clubs that were interested.

As for Pep, a blind donkey could see why he chose Bayern Munich over City and Chelsea. I think most big name managers are afraid to take the Chelsea job because of Abramovic. And then City, is a lot tougher to figure out this reason, but I think it's more that Pep just didn't want to deal with the craziness the City job would bring.

Uncle Si wrote:Its almost sad to see the PL at this state of mediocrity. There are maybe 4-5 really world class players in the league right now (Suarez, RvP, Aguero and Bale who may be the 3rd best player in the world at the moment) the PL is suffering from thus lack of genuine talent and may lose more players in the summer. Not only do Bale and Suarez need to stay but PL teams need to attract more talent. It wont be hard with the dram of the German league, the three Spanish teams and FFP

I blame Chelsea and City for the lack of talent. Overseas clubs now seem to be adding £10 million to the value of their players because these reckless chumps have shown that they're prepared to pay it. They appear to believe that all English clubs are in the same financial situation. For clubs who are actually concerned with staying solvent the top young talent is much harder to find at a sensible pric than it was 6 - 7 years ago.

You maybe onto something there. It might make sense that some teams are price fixing their players solely cause City, and Chelsea, are willing to way more than a player is actually worth.

Again Gate, aside from agreeing through disagreement I'm not sure what you're on about. A blind monkey? At what point did the German league become a stronger pull than the PL? Peps choosing the German league because its easy? No... and while Chelsea may be unstable, City isn't. He chose Germany because that league is on the rise. Its financially stable, competitive and developing. The PL is on the way down. That's the point. Lucas chose PSG because they can offer more. Falcoa will go to Italy, Real or Barca in the summer because the success rate is higher. Basically everything I said you agreed with then tried to explain. The explanations aren't necessary, but they aren't anoloies, nor each singular. Pep, Cavani, Neymar, Lucas, Falcoa will all end up outside of England for the same basic premise. Its the same one that may draw Suarez and Bale away. The PL right now is not looked on as the ultimate in football. Last years dramatic finale and chelseas herpics did nothing to add to the allure either (what world class players joined the PL this summer.... and don't bore me with Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool additions. None were world class. They represent the new PL.. almost moneyball additions)

I want to say that it may not be a bad thing. Purchases like Borini, Coutinho, Holtby, Giroud, Sissokho, Kagawa may help overturn the precedent set by the Chelseas and Citys. They can only help the health of the league. But the PL may not see a truly world class addition for a couple of windows. So why the Neymars, Ronaldos, Alonsos, Lucas' go elsewhere, and the Dortmunds and Schalkes continue to develop in their own buildings, the PL may have to wait and create more balance. Because of that, as peaches said, the mediocrity will continue

Uncle Si wrote:Again Gate, aside from agreeing through disagreement I'm not sure what you're on about. A blind monkey? At what point did the German league become a stronger pull than the PL? Peps choosing the German league because its easy? No... and while Chelsea may be unstable, City isn't. He chose Germany because that league is on the rise. Its financially stable, competitive and developing. The PL is on the way down. That's the point. Lucas chose PSG because they can offer more. Falcoa will go to Italy, Real or Barca in the summer because the success rate is higher. Basically everything I said you agreed with then tried to explain. The explanations aren't necessary, but they aren't anoloies, nor each singular. Pep, Cavani, Neymar, Lucas, Falcoa will all end up outside of England for the same basic premise. Its the same one that may draw Suarez and Bale away. The PL right now is not looked on as the ultimate in football. Last years dramatic finale and chelseas herpics did nothing to add to the allure either (what world class players joined the PL this summer.... and don't bore me with Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool additions. None were world class. They represent the new PL.. almost moneyball additions)

Ericksen is this summers big target. Where he goes will say alot

We both know, the German league is far from easy, and you're right, the Bundesliga doesn't have a stronger pull than the EPL, but even I would choose Bayern Munich over the likes of Chelsea and City. And while I never actually said City are unstable, Manchester City are basically a tightrope act due to all the ego they are buying, though they did offload a massive chunk of it with Balotelli's transfer to Milan, but honestly in my mind, City are still a few steps from turning into a full on train wreck of a club, and it's mostly to do with the outrageous wages that the players are being paid, half of which are being paid 150+ to sit on the bench for at least 60 minutes.

Uncle Si wrote:Its almost sad to see the PL at this state of mediocrity. There are maybe 4-5 really world class players in the league right now (Suarez, RvP, Aguero and Bale who may be the 3rd best player in the world at the moment) the PL is suffering from thus lack of genuine talent and may lose more players in the summer. Not only do Bale and Suarez need to stay but PL teams need to attract more talent. It wont be hard with the dram of the German league, the three Spanish teams and FFP

I blame Chelsea and City for the lack of talent. Overseas clubs now seem to be adding £10 million to the value of their players because these reckless chumps have shown that they're prepared to pay it. They appear to believe that all English clubs are in the same financial situation. For clubs who are actually concerned with staying solvent the top young talent is much harder to find at a sensible pric than it was 6 - 7 years ago.

It's not just City and Chelsea though. Next season every EPL team will be making a lot more tv money than this year due to the new sky, bt vision and al jazeera deals. Why should non EPL clubs not ask for more money for their players when they know they'll have it.

I think part of the reason players have second thoughts about England is the tax rate. 50% of your earnings are taxed whereas in Russia they aren't.

So how do you fix Liverpool? Clearly a huge club with a massive fan base who are experiencing a tough time of mediocrity at the moment. Do you give the manager time and money to sort things out or try a different option. In my opinion, I would give Rodgers at least another season but how much patience will Liverpool fans have? What's your thoughts?

What to do about Liverpool.... I have several opinions on this, so bear with me. None of them are "sack the manager, buy Neymar" either.

First, with Rodgers... He deserves another year, as would any manager thrust into his position. The team he inherited lacked quality in several pieces and are unfit to run the system he prefers. He has been naive in some matches (the first West Brom game, the first game and last 20 of the second with Arsenal) but in many regards his players have let him down.

As far as quality, the team needs a consistent midfielder (Ericksen?), a consistent winger (I like the idea of Julian Draxler, despite his being young), a new left back, a new centerback and a new keeper. All 5 of these need to be high quality players. And here is where Liverpool is both strong and weak. When we examine the PL, there is really only one "strong" team, and that is United. And why? They are very experienced, everywhere. They have proven, tested goal scorers, a manager willing to play to his teams strengths and players across the board who have already won games. Liverpool is just not that club right now. The average age is 23. Many of the players called on to impact highly competitive games are very young and new to the rigors of the PL. Jordan Henderson and Joe Allen being the main culprits, but it doesnt stop there. Borini, Coutinho, Sterling, Suso, Shelvey, Wisdom may all become very good PL players, but need the time on the field. This time to gain experience has come and will come in big matches. We can assume that their will be negative results. There is no way around that.

But this needs to be coupled with another, bigger problem that I am beginning to (fretfully) realize. Im not sure the 4-3-3 and its components in the way that Rodgers/Wenger want to run it can be successful in the PL. In nearly every match that Liverpool has been in they have been better for longer stretches of time than their opponent, and yet been undone by the simplest of mistakes. (Wenger's Arsenal teams of the very near past have succumbed to the same issues.... defensive breakdowns have undone title/cup chances)

The 433 in the way Rodgers plays it asks that its team defends by possessing the ball for long stretches of time. this involved intricate, tight triangles throughout the field, but mostly through the middle third and into the attacking third. And this is where I see our biggest problem... Liverpools players are not geared to do this, neither mentally nor technically. the triangles break down far too quickly, leaving gaping holes in their shape. the triangles are far too big, never truly unbalancing the other team's shape, leaving Liverpool without options after a few passes. In reality, Liverpool become weaker and weaker with each pass they make through the midfield. And often their decision making leaves them more exposed or at the very least shapeless in attack, with some players moving to build around the ball only to see it pinged long in the very English manner. Look at what United do at the moment. Sit, defend in shape, hit on the wings with counters... top of the league. When Liverpool do push the ball, they have been undone by their own lack of quality near goal (as illustrated in the recent stat that indicate them as bottom in the league in shot on target percentage, and more clearly their last 5 matches, all of which should have been Liverpool victories). This combination of poor finishing, naive defending and disorganization (lack of tactical understanding and technical ability) in shape in key moments is the basis of our mediocrity. The issue is less about formation and system and more about philosophy.

The recent question I have mulled is whether Liverpools current players are the issue, or the players in the system are the issue (meaning would the current squad be more successful in a different system/philosophy). Would Barca succeed in their system in the PL? Hard to say, but it needs to be said that even they have gone "longer" this season. I think a better 433 system to emulate would be Real Madrids. Liverpool's current players would be more suited to a 4231, with deeper lying midfielders and more direct attacking. If Rodgers is insistent on the Barca version, he will need an overhaul at the positions I listed above with true world class quality

Either way, this is my long answer. Rodgers is the right man (for now). However, he needs to balance his system with the players... or the fans need to be patient while both learn. This is the issue with Liverpool as a brand. Its fans are buried in its past glories. and despite the fact that those glories came with homegrown mostly English Liverpool players, many Reds fans expect the club to purchase the worlds best, regardless of price tag. This is contrary to anything the club has ever done. But many fans scream "But we are Liverpool" without really knowing what that means, or where it comes from.

Personally I can wait. but next summer I expect atleast three very strong new players in and a renewed philosophy. I expect top 4, I expect Rodgers to have gained a better understanding of life in the Prem and to be willing to adjust and adopt to his players strengths while implementing a system that can be successful.

Gatehawk wrote:Just for once don't crack on Arsenal, and not turn it on me and make this worse for someone who's already feeling like crap.

Where's the fun in that?

And to be honest you had to see this coming right?

How the f*** could I see this coming, for like 99% of the 1st half the ball was in Blackburn's half of the field. It was like they were playing a 8-1-1 formation, hell I joked at halftime that it was Arsenal vs Blackburn Bus Depot. And then Blackburn get the shittiest of shit goals you could have ever imagined them to get. Arsenal should have scored countless times, but were denied by either crap finishing or the god damned crossbar. Everything went against Arsenal despite how one sided the game looked. I'm f***ing pissed and disappointed at everything from Arsenal to the refereeing to Blackburn for essentially doing next to nothing and yet getting the rewards that Arsenal should have gotten. Now unless Arsenal puts forth some magic and slips past Bayern Munich, and I still think they can, me and other Arsenal fans are gonna be forced to listen to the bastards mock Arsenal for not having a trophy for the 8th season, it's actually to the point where it's the mockery is like Arsenal are the only team in existance without a trophy or they have the longest trophy drought in history, and the people who want to do that are pathetic and stupid(and the majority are also refusing to admit their own club's problems). I know nobody wants their team to be in the situation Arsenal are in, and it's annoying to hear the same bullcrap that spews out of everyone's mouths when negative events happen. I'm completely fed up with Arsenal fans that are whining about the same exact shit that they did after the Bradford City loss, you know what's similar about it? Both games Arsenal didn't field a weak squad, they fielded the strongest squad available and in the end it just wasn't enough. And yet people feel compelled to bitch and moan about the same exact shit, and it's not restricted to just cup losses, it's any loss. And then there's the complaints about transfers, people are still questioning why Wenger didn't go and buy a like for like replacement for Van Persie, those same people fail to realize that there really isn't much of a difference. Arsenal may be a spot lower in the standings but there's no goal scoring dip, they've spread out the goal scoring burden. Despite that, would I have liked Arsenal to win a trophy, of course I would've, no sane person wouldn't want a trophy. Do I like the fact that Arsenal might have to settle for Wenger's "trophy" place of Top 4? Not really, I thought Arsenal were good enough for 2nd. Should Wenger leave or be fired? I still doubt that he'll ever be fired, but walking away seems like the only reasonable option for him should Arsenal lose to Bayern. I don't think anyone would want him back for next season if he gets no trophies. I am not going to be happy about what happened today and it'll be a while till I get over it cause I thought the FA Cup and League Cup were gonna be Arsenal's for the taking this year but I was obviously wrong. And I don't need morons like Peach to be a dick about it.

Cry me a river, Gate. Then piss off. Just agree that Arsenal are shite. I've said many times that Liverpool are shite. Nothing wrong with admitting your teams flaws. Doesn't make you any less a supporter.

Wenger's not gonna walk away, and I'm not convinced that he's all that's wrong. They just don't have the players. Same as Liverpool.

peachesenregalia wrote:Cry me a river, Gate. Then piss off. Just agree that Arsenal are shite. I've said many times that Liverpool are shite. Nothing wrong with admitting your teams flaws. Doesn't make you any less a supporter.

Wenger's not gonna walk away, and I'm not convinced that he's all that's wrong. They just don't have the players. Same as Liverpool.

Let me try this another way. How could you not have seen another Arsenal implosion coming given what the team has already succumbed to this year? Why would you have thought that this Arsenal team would be different than the 8 years that preceded it.

If you flow back a bit to my Liverpool post you'll see the two teams are not dissimilar. They are both tactically naive. And while Arsenal is a bit more gifted overall, if the ball doesnt go in for them early then weaker teams (like Blackburn for you, WBA for us) will wait it out and hit on the counters. This is professional effing footy Gate. You still seem to think that out-possessing and shooting a team are somehow an indication your team is dominating, when in truth the other teams are smart enough to let you come into them, and wait. Could Blackburn play you straight up? no. so they didnt... and won.

Its shitty Gate... ive basically resigned myself to watching Liverpool "learn" this season. 85 % of their matchplay this season they have been equal to or better than their opponent.. yet they manage to lose (or lose by draw). why?

Because free flowing attacking football is not always the way to go. Wenger refuses to be learn that and I fear Rodgers may be too stubborn as well

Don't care. It was a very weak Swansea side and I'm not going to let myself get excited. We're looking at a finish in the 6-10 range in the league this year, which was what I predicted at first. I just hope we can keep a hold of the players we need to keep a hold of, ie Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Agger and Johnson.

Football is not a matter of life and death. It's much more important than that. ~ Bill Shankley

Don't care. It was a very weak Swansea side and I'm not going to let myself get excited. We're looking at a finish in the 6-10 range in the league this year, which was what I predicted at first. I just hope we can keep a hold of the players we need to keep a hold of, ie Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Agger and Johnson.

Don't read too much into it. I don't think this was the launching pad for our champions league campaign or anything, but its just nice to see a 5-0 result when your team has been playing like hot garbage for an extended period of time. 6th place is probably the ceiling for us this year, hopefully we can make some astute signings in the summer and push forward next year.