i.e. if you have 1000 people mining and pay 500 payments per day, that would average 0.5 payments per person per day.I guess I can count the obvious txn's in the block chain, but I am curious to know how much of an exaggeration (or incorrect) my assumption is that coinbase payments use up more blockchain space than typical aggregated txn payments (with no txn aggregation)

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLUFreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.isMajority developer of the ckpool codeHelp keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!

I guess I can count the obvious txn's in the block chain, but I am curious to know how much of an exaggeration (or incorrect) my assumption is that coinbase payments use up more blockchain space than typical aggregated txn payments (with no txn aggregation)

I guess I can count the obvious txn's in the block chain, but I am curious to know how much of an exaggeration (or incorrect) my assumption is that coinbase payments use up more blockchain space than typical aggregated txn payments (with no txn aggregation)

Why do you think that coinbase payment would differ from normal sendmany TX ?

200 sends (not sendmany) is roughly 7.5 times the size of 200 coinbase payments in a single block.

i.e. a single send txn is around 258 bytes and a coinbase payment is around 34.5 bytes (if the coinbase txn pays around 200 addresses)

My single TXes are 233-234 bytes each, about 9% less than normal ones.

We may consider using sendmany in the future, but of course "coinbase" payments are not suitable in our case.

They are if you look at it a different way:You could say: Your payment will appear in the next DeepBit block after 0, 1, 2 etc. DeepBit blocks(once payments reach 50 it then goes in the next block after that ... etc)Then use coinbase payments to do those payments ...Since DeepBit blocks are 'usually' pretty regular - I'm sure most people would be happy with that(and do send/sendmany for the users who aren't)... and knowing they are reducing the block-chain requirements of their payments would help encourage them also.... and of course coinbase payments do not need fees

Oh and just an FYI Deepbit uses about 1/6 of the block-chain space to pay their miners, per miner, compared to P2Pool - even with single sends.Using only coinbase payments would reduce it by up to approx another 1/7 of it's current sizei.e. total block-chain usage ~1/42 of the P2Pool size

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLUFreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.isMajority developer of the ckpool codeHelp keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!

My single TXes are 233-234 bytes each, about 9% less than normal ones.

We may consider using sendmany in the future, but of course "coinbase" payments are not suitable in our case.

They are if you look at it a different way:You could say: Your payment will appear in the next DeepBit block after 0, 1, 2 etc. DeepBit blocks(once payments reach 50 it then goes in the next block after that ... etc)Then use coinbase payments to do those payments ...

Why do you think that coinbase payments are better than sendmany ? They are much worse and I hope we will never use them for payments.

Do you know that users can't spend coinbase payments for ~20 hours after receiving ? I prefer to pay with ready-to-use/mature bitcoins :)

My single TXes are 233-234 bytes each, about 9% less than normal ones.

We may consider using sendmany in the future, but of course "coinbase" payments are not suitable in our case.

They are if you look at it a different way:You could say: Your payment will appear in the next DeepBit block after 0, 1, 2 etc. DeepBit blocks(once payments reach 50 it then goes in the next block after that ... etc)Then use coinbase payments to do those payments ...

Why do you think that coinbase payments are better than sendmany ? They are much worse and I hope we will never use them for payments.

Do you know that users can't spend coinbase payments for ~20 hours after receiving ? I prefer to pay with ready-to-use/mature bitcoins

Yep - and yep I left that point out - forgot to mention it.Yes coinbase payments have to wait for the block to mature(currently 120 blocks - and that is the same time for all pools of course)

Anyway, as I said in the rest of it, it's a payment method that is better for the block chain than send/sendmany and I'm sure if people had it as an option and bothered to look at the option to choose, some would certainly choose it (I would on all pools I mine on )

Being the biggest pool and advertising it as an option, I'm sure at least some of the other pools would also implement it for the sake of comparison - ok time for me to suggest it to another pool

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLUFreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.isMajority developer of the ckpool codeHelp keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!

Why do you think that coinbase payments are better than sendmany ? They are much worse and I hope we will never use them for payments.

Do you know that users can't spend coinbase payments for ~20 hours after receiving ? I prefer to pay with ready-to-use/mature bitcoins

Yep - and yep I left that point out - forgot to mention it.Yes coinbase payments have to wait for the block to mature(currently 120 blocks - and that is the same time for all pools of course)

Anyway, as I said in the rest of it, it's a payment method that is better for the block chain than send/sendmany

WHY do you think that coinbase payment is better than sendmany ? No way it can be true.It may be a couple of percents smaller because no previous TX is needed, but it's not worth the 20-hours delay.

P.S.: And no, maturing time is not equal to 120 blocks for all the pools.

I'm referring to the coinbase payment of course, where the maturing time is the same 120 blocks after it goes in the block, no matter what.You can't spend the BTC until 120 network blocks - and you certainly have the BTC at 120 network blocks.

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLUFreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.isMajority developer of the ckpool codeHelp keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!

Why do you think that coinbase payments are better than sendmany ? They are much worse and I hope we will never use them for payments.

Yep - and yep I left that point out - forgot to mention it.Yes coinbase payments have to wait for the block to mature(currently 120 blocks - and that is the same time for all pools of course)

Anyway, as I said in the rest of it, it's a payment method that is better for the block chain than send/sendmany

WHY do you think that coinbase payment is better than sendmany ? No way it can be true.

P.S.: And no, maturing time is not equal to 120 blocks for all the pools.

I'm referring to the coinbase payment of course, where the maturing time is the same 120 blocks after it goes in the block, no matter what.You can't spend the BTC until 120 network blocks - and you certainly have the BTC at 120 network blocks.

1. 120-blocks limit is not a network-enforced rule, only the "official" client works that way. Network-enforced period is somewhere around 101 blocks.And no, you won't "certainly" have the BTC at 120 blocks because the block can be orphaned. This should be checked by a special routine and re-sent if something happens.

2. I'll repeat my question for the THIRD time: Why do you think that coinbase payments are better than sendmany ?

Why do you think that coinbase payments are better than sendmany ? They are much worse and I hope we will never use them for payments.

Yep - and yep I left that point out - forgot to mention it.Yes coinbase payments have to wait for the block to mature(currently 120 blocks - and that is the same time for all pools of course)

Anyway, as I said in the rest of it, it's a payment method that is better for the block chain than send/sendmany

WHY do you think that coinbase payment is better than sendmany ? No way it can be true.

P.S.: And no, maturing time is not equal to 120 blocks for all the pools.

I'm referring to the coinbase payment of course, where the maturing time is the same 120 blocks after it goes in the block, no matter what.You can't spend the BTC until 120 network blocks - and you certainly have the BTC at 120 network blocks.

1. 120-blocks limit is not a network-enforced rule, only the "official" client works that way. Network-enforced period is somewhere around 101 blocks.

I find that rather disturbing that you of all people would make that statement.

and the earliest src I have on my computer at the moment: bitcoin-0.3.19, says that also.

I'm not sure what you mean by "network-enforced rule" vs "official client" unless you have changed that code in your pool to some other value and thus are trying to change the bitcoin rules yourself?

Of course I can write my own client to create a transaction worth 100 times my BTC balance, but no one's clients would accept it because that breaks the "Bitcoin rules"

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And no, you won't "certainly" have the BTC at 120 blocks because the block can be orphaned. This should be checked by a special routine and re-sent if something happens.

Yeah OK, of course orphaned blocks can mean delays, however that is the whole point of the 100+20 code to ensure that the probability of a coinbase generation ever being orphaned once it gets to 120 confirms is so unlikely that it doesn't matter.

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2. I'll repeat my question for the THIRD time: Why do you think that coinbase payments are better than sendmany ?

... and knowing they are reducing the block-chain requirements of their payments would help encourage them also.... and of course coinbase payments do not need fees

Oh and just an FYI Deepbit uses about 1/6 of the block-chain space to pay their miners, per miner, compared to P2Pool - even with single sends.Using only coinbase payments would reduce it by up to approx another 1/7 of it's current sizei.e. total block-chain usage ~1/42 of the P2Pool size

Edit: even when compared to a sendmany, a coinbase payment is smaller per payment.

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLUFreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.isMajority developer of the ckpool codeHelp keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!