One of my players uses Stone Shape to be a real estate tycoon; one casting = 1 house. Multiple castings = 1 mansion. It's all the rage in places where most over homes are hovels made from scrap.

As far as your idea, I'm ambivalent. While I enjoy creative uses of spells, actively offensive uses of the Stone Shape are not covered at all, which would seem to mean to me that it is not able to perform such effects. If you allow it then you are looking at quite a few issues and essentially have to build how it works from scratch.

So I touch the ground and warp the stone to try and trap the enemy.... how much can I trap them? Can I wall them in completely as per Wall of Stone, a 5th level spell? Can I effect multiple enemies? Depending on those answers is this in line with a 3rd level spell?

It's a lot of questions that need answering... but I think the one thing we can all agree on is that Reflex negates.

One of my players uses Stone Shape to be a real estate tycoon; one casting = 1 house.

You can make a house from 15 cubic feet of rock? You could make one wall 10 feet long, 6 feet high and 3 inches thick with that. Another five castings and you might have one tiny enclosed room.

chaoseffect wrote:

It's a lot of questions that need answering... but I think the one thing we can all agree on is that Reflex negates.

Since the spell says Saving Throw: None, I think it would be a better rule of thumb that any use that you would expect to grant a saving throw (eg make a stone cage around a moving target) shouldn't be allowed.

Well, firstly stone shape is a lower level spell than wall of stone. Since wall of stone fails if you try to use it on stop of a creature, and since a creature gets a save against the spell if your try to capture it within the walls (if within 5ft of wall).

So at the very least they should get a reflex save. I however lean more towards the idea that you could only trap a helpless creature with stone shape. Otherwise they're able to move out of the way without much effort.

Stone Shape is not supposed to be an offensive spell. It's an odd utility spell that may be worth while in some very specific situations.

I'm thinking of using it to make 'cement boots' by wrapping the stone in big blocks around creatures' feet/legs.

Who else has amazing uses they don't see used much?

Also, would enemies get saves against my stone? What would they be?

Why not make either a pit of spike under or around an enemy? Another great option is to encase them in a 10x10 stone prison (which they will surely suffocate in), or better yet, make a stone wall behind your enemy that has spikes facing them. Force push/punch them into the wall (dealing damage from the force punch AND from the damage of the spiked wall). If you're playing a wizard, GET CREATIVE ;)

I have a player in a campaign who uses it as a way to bypass doors that are locked or otherwise sealed in dungeons or buildings where the doorframe is built into a stone structure. Uses Stone Shape to remove a narrow strip of stone all the way around the door frame, and then just pushes the whole thing over.

So I touch the ground and warp the stone to try and trap the enemy.... how much can I trap them?

You know, the volume of shapable stone is given in the spell's stats, so you don't have to make this up from scratch. (Hint: Some math can convert the volume from "cubic feet" to "number of 1-inch-thick, 5ftx5ft panels".)

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Can I wall them in completely as per Wall of Stone, a 5th level spell? Can I effect multiple enemies?

Again, how much stone can you shape? It's already right there in the spell for you.

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Depending on those answers is this in line with a 3rd level spell?

Remember that for sorc/wiz, it's actually 4th-level.

So compare "I use my touch-range stone shape to try and grab the legs of one or two nearby creatures" to "I stand at the other end of the room and use black tentacles to grapple everyone in a 20ft radius, and also deal damage to them round after round".

I'm not seeing the problem.

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It's a lot of questions that need answering... but I think the one thing we can all agree on is that Reflex negates.

For grabbing/trapping someone, I'd probably more go for a version of CMB vs CMD. But Reflex could work too, depending.

Making a pit under the enemy, especially a spiked one, would quite honestly fall under the spell Spiked Pit. It probably shouldn't be allowed to work, and if it does it shouldn't work better than the spel Spike Pit.

Creating a spiked wall next to the enemy seem okay. But attempting to creating a prison around them would at best work like Wall of Stone. But since that's a higher level, probably shouldn't be allowed at all. And it certainly wont cause them to suffocate quickly.

Creative is good, but encroaching on other spells or breaking the rules isn't.

Saldiven's example is a good creative use of stone shape. Using it to bypass a wall or door or earthen stone obstacle can allow you to avoid an otherwise dangerous situation.

Right here, is a geometry tool that I created to help me determine what shapes, sizes, and numbers I can get away with. It is one of many tools you can find in my Crazy Character Emporium's archive.

Ravingdork wrote:

DISCLAIMER: I know some of these are cheesy and may not be allowed by certain anal GMs. What of it? :P

Since I am playing an earth-themed spellcaster (aka an earth bender), I'm looking for advice on rules-legal ways to weaponize the stone shape spell, or to at least make it really awesome outside of combat.

I did some mathematical calculations and, as a 5th-level cleric or druid, I can manipulate 15 cubic feet of stone.

Some ideas that I had were as follows:

- Create spikes...big spikes...under enemies...impaling them. With 15 cubic feet I could create 45 right cones, each 5 feet long with a 3 inch radius at their base (if I did my math correctly). By reducing the radius, I can create well over a hundred spikes (albeit more fragile ones). At later levels, I could potentially impale small armies numbering in the hundreds.

- Prepare an action to create the above spikes (facing at an angle from the ground) when the enemy charges you and your friends so that they impale themselves.

- Touch a stone tower or similar structure and reshape a diagonal sliver out of it (moving it somewhere else in the tower) effectively cleaving the tower in half causing the top half to slide off the bottom half. I haven't done the math, but considering towers are rarely solid and I would only need to move a 1/2" x W' x D' or so, I should be able to pull this off even at low levels.

- Similar to the spike trick above, but the objective is to trap the victim(s) rather than to harm them. Simply have the cones spring up all around them thereby restricting their movement and making them helpless.

- Reshape a wall or ceiling into small spheres causing it to collapse on people standing nearby. Since I am not so much "turning the stone into spheres" as much as I am "reshaping/moving the stone from all the spaces BETWEEN the spheres," I can affect a surprisingly large amount of ceiling/wall this way.

- A combination of the above tricks: Instead of shaping a section of ceiling, shape them into cone spikes, then move a sliver of stone from their base causing them to fall on people below. I have no idea how much volume it would take to do that though...

- Cause a door in a stone frame to become blocked by stone cross bars in order to stop an enemy pursuit dead in its tracks.

- Seal a stone sarcophagi so that the horrible undead can't escape.

- Open a narrow passage (such as a door or series of murder holes) through a stone wall.

- Create a series of crude HOLLOW humanoid statues (I estimate about 1 per 5 cubic feet) to trick far off enemies or something.

- Create a mundane object such as thin slabs in the shape of a tent or shelter, or create a narrow bridge over a small chasm, or make a goblet or bowl for holding liquids or food.

- Encasing your opponent in stone. About an inch thick layer of stone formed snugly over a creature's body will absolutely keep them from moving. A minor variation would be cement boots. It takes, what, 1 cubic foot of stone to totally encase a medium creature's foot and root it to the ground? So when I initially pick up this spell I can root as many as 15 medium creatures to the earth (one stuck foot each).

Making a pit under the enemy, especially a spiked one, would quite honestly fall under the spell Spiked Pit. It probably shouldn't be allowed to work, and if it does it shouldn't work better than the spel Spike Pit.

Well if we're going to compare stone shape to spiked pit, let's do an actual comparison, shall we?

Stone shape's volume is measured by cubic feet. A single 5ft cube is 125 cubic feet. To make a 5ft deep pit with stone shape (that is, to move a 5ft cube out of the space you want to use), you need to have a caster level of 115.

So the only way you can even do this is if you're instead standing on some kind of stone platform which you then shape down into a spiked pit (we'll assume there's a reason that this would be better than just making a hole for them to fall through).

After that, there's also the issue of range. Stone shape is a touch spell. What's the range of spiked pit?

Then there's the fact that stone shape only affects stone, and has to physically move it. Meanwhile spiked pit works on any horizontal surface, such as the deck of a ship, and doesn't care about the material composition of the surface or anything under it, and also doesn't damage anything.

Finally, let's compare spell levels: stone shape is 3rd or 4th, depending on who's casting it. Spiked pit is 3rd. So we're not even talking about emulating a higher-level spell here. For a wizard, in fact, it would actually be a downgrade.

We get similar result if we make (honest) comparisons to wall of stone, black tentacles (when trying to grab), or other spells which could be emulated.

Sorry, but "your idea sounds like the name of another spell" is not the same as "your idea would be encroaching on/invalidating another spell". Good GMs make adjudications based on more than just spell names.

So stepping aside from the stone shape question entanglement, one fun concept I had (as a GM) was a dragon using it in limited visibility.

Specifically, I had a White Dragon ambush the party, and in the limited visibility (randomly rolled storm during the night) he would pull back and create a snow statue of himself. The party would then think it was him and try to stab him. Gave him time to recharge his breath weapon a few times and gave him flat footed AC to hit. Had 4 statues before the end of combat. Only the fighter with blind fight was able to realistically tell which was statue and which was dragon.

I do not see a reason why another dragon in his mountain lair could not use similar tactics. Cut off light source, use breath weapon, stone shape a dragon statue, repeat till the party is dead or he is.

Back to the entangling stone shape question. I would treat it like Entangle, but with only a 5ft square target. DC to avoid it (and a free 5ft step if they make it). Then you are not emulating a higher level spell, but still getting the kind of effect you are looking for. (at least I think that is the direction you were shooting for)

So....you could make spikes. Which should still allow a reflex save to get out of the way.

Or more likely, nothing happens immediately, and the area is just treated like it has caltrops. So you could blow a 3rd or 4th-level spell to instantly and permanently caltrop-ify a substantial area. Maybe good for an escape or something?

Or more likely, nothing happens immediately, and the area is just treated like it has caltrops. So you could blow a 3rd or 4th-level spell to instantly and permanently caltrop-ify a substantial area. Maybe good for an escape or something?

Now that I would totally allow. I'd probably allow you to create caltrop like extrusions out of stone on the ground for a considerable area. I mean you're really just making some irregularly placed spikes coming out of the ground. I'd say each cubic foot of volume would affect at least 1 5ft square with caltrop like spikes.

Back to the entangling stone shape question. I would treat it like Entangle, but with only a 5ft square target. DC to avoid it (and a free 5ft step if they make it). Then you are not emulating a higher level spell, but still getting the kind of effect you are looking for. (at least I think that is the direction you were shooting for)

Drastically reducing the amount of stone you're able to shape is a terrible way of trying to deal with an unanticipated application of the spell.

Remember, grabbing hold of someone has many forms:
Entangle is 2-3 spell levels lower than SS, has much greater range than SS, and covers a HUGE area with save-or-be-entangled, and also creates difficult terrain (which means no 5ft steps).
Web is 1-2 spell levels lower than SS, and also has a much more massive range and area than SS, and is save-or-be-grappled.
[b]Black tentacles[/i] is, for the wizard casting it, the same spell level as SS, and again has a massively greater range and area, and is CMB-or-be-grappled and also deals damage over time and can grapple new targets that enter the area later.

And you think an appropriate use of SS to trap someone is to take the 1st-level spell entangle, reduce the range to "touch", and reduce the area from a 40ft radius to a single square? Are you serious? Two-three spell levels result in a massive nerf to effectiveness, instead of an improvement?

One of my players uses Stone Shape to be a real estate tycoon; one casting = 1 house.

You can make a house from 15 cubic feet of rock? You could make one wall 10 feet long, 6 feet high and 3 inches thick with that. Another five castings and you might have one tiny enclosed room.

Well more like 20 cubic feet of rock at the level, but I do see your point and that's what happens when I misread how much Stone Shape does in one cast. If it does come up again I'll make him burn more spells to make his tiny "high end" shanties. It's harder being a slum lord than he (and I) thought.

For example, the caster should be able to touch a stone wall, grow the stone toward a door, then form a pillar from the wall pushing the door closed. What about a door with a stone frame, where one could form spikes that push spikes into the door to make it stuck?

How would you adjudicate this in combat with enemies at the door, likely wanting to enter the room you're in?

Am I reading stone shape right in assuming you cannot make doors or pits or the like out of large stone objects because the large area of these objects exceeds the area of the spell making the entire mass effectively immune to the spell? And for something like a castle made from quarried stone blocks, a single casting of stone shape would only effect one block if that block is small enough to fit within the area of the spell?