I think one thing has been overlooked in this focus on specific passages. Regardless of what any particular gospel writer thought about Jesus, doesn't mean that Jesus held that belief about himself. Christianity is better understood as a religion about Jesus, not the religion of Jesus. Even if Mark did believe Jesus was God (which is dubious at best) it doesn't mean that Jesus held that opinion of himself. And even if Jesus did hold that opinion of himself, it doesn't mean that he was. There have been delusional individuals in every generation, even very charismatic ones. But again, we don't know if he ever made such a claim. Just because the Gospel of John makes that claim for Jesus it doesn't a) make it true, or b) mean that Jesus actually said it. He may have, but he may not have. But even if he did...it's the height of gullibity to believe everything one reads in a 'holy book' (of any origin). I don't think that I'm making a controversial statement here. I'm simply stating what seems (to me) highly obvious.

A case in point. There was a charismatic Jewish leader in New York who was assassinated twenty years ago (Menachem Schneerson). At no point during his life did he claim to be the messiah. But after his death his followers became convinced that he was indeed the messiah. They even started making up miraculous stories about him, which his family insisted were fabrications. They still await his return. Even look at the magical stories that North Koreans tell about the birth and death of Kim Il Sung. It's the human creative instinct at work. That, after all, is why we have other religions too. (I think one of Christianity's greatest weknesses is its inability to adequately explain why other religions exist alongside Christianity. Clearly religions - plenty of them with massive followings - can emerge and grow without any divine assistance.)

I think Bart Ehrmann has shown that the New Testament is, like the scriptures of those other faiths, a fully human document. I highly recommend both Jesus Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus by Ehrmann. He is a respected biblical scholar and a former evangelical who had nothing to gain, and everything to lose, by coming to the conclusions that he did. I don't believe anyone can read those two books and still hold to the case that the NT is a divinely-inspired text.

IMO you're confusing the interpretation of the Stones on the lyrics. The founding rockster fathers never meant we should take those words literally. In fact, their greatest song is not 'Sympathy for the Devil', but 'Gimmie Shelter' - in fact, if you were astute in these kinds of things, you would have acknowledged this on your own without me having to point it out to you.

A scoffer seeks wisdom and does not find it (Proverbs 14:6, The New King James Version).

Goodbye

Zackback, where are you? I showed you a list of English translations of the passage in Mark. Translations agreed upon by scholars who understand ancient Greek. Not one of them confirms your understanding of "ego eimi". Instead of refuting these experts you post a quote from Proverbs and run away to bury your head in the sand. You are disappointing the readers of this thread. I hope you aren't busy praying to Yahweh to strike me down, because I have to go to work next week. Anyway, I am awaiting your return.

One more thing. Being a "scoffer who seeks wisdom" if you haven't returned to this thread after two thousand years I'll just conclude you aren't coming back.

Qorpheus, where are you? I showed you a list of lyric translations of the passage in youtube. Translations agreed upon by scholars who understand ancient rock n roll. Not one of them confirms your understanding of "rock". Instead of refuting these experts you post a quote from youtube and run away to bury your head in the sand. You are disappointing the readers of this thread. I hope you aren't busy praying to satan to strike me down, because I have to go to work next week. Anyway, I am awaiting your return.

One more thing. Being a "scoffer who seeks wisdom" if you haven't returned to this thread after two thousand years I'll just conclude you aren't coming back.[/quote]

Qorpheus, where are you? I showed you a list of lyric translations of the passage in youtube. Translations agreed upon by scholars who understand ancient rock n roll. Not one of them confirms your understanding of "rock". Instead of refuting these experts you post a quote from youtube and run away to bury your head in the sand. You are disappointing the readers of this thread. I hope you aren't busy praying to satan to strike me down, because I have to go to work next week. Anyway, I am awaiting your return.

One more thing. Being a "scoffer who seeks wisdom" if you haven't returned to this thread after two thousand years I'll just conclude you aren't coming back.

I give up, you win. Did you ever get back together with the wife? You've been in Korea forever. How's your boy? He must be at least 12 by now eh. Did you ever find a home for the dog? Happy new year old brother

I give up, you win. Did you ever get back together with the wife? You've been in Korea forever. How's your boy? He must be at least 12 by now eh. Did you ever find a home for the dog? Happy new year old brother

yeah thank God. he, she are safe here in the Korea. how about you, bear breath?

Last edited by ricochet on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total