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Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

I built 2 hives from scratch this summer, planning on getting bees this coming spring. I've been taking my time and trying to collect everything I need to do it right, being very patient! While at church on Sunday I learned of a bee problem in the parking lot. After church I went and surveyed the small swarm (softball size) clinging to the bottom of the palm frond. My wife and I talked and decided to bring them home. I cut the frond off and placed it over a bucket, placed the lid on the best I could with the frond hanging out. She rode the whole way home with her feet on the lid to keep it closed, only a few got out in the car. Here is what I had waiting for them at home, 2 hives both setup identically from components that I made, all out of Cedar (even the frames).

Screened bottom board
2 Medium Bodies
Inner Cover
Garden style cover

The 8-frame Bodies all actually have 9 frames each. I'm not sure how that worked out but it did. The empty frames all have a 3/4" sliver of wood in the groove running the length of the frame as a guide for straight comb, there is an empty frame against one wall, then a frame with foundation, two empty frames, a frame with foundation, two empty frames, frame with foundation, two empty frames, frame with foundation, and an empty frame.

(like this)
E F E E F E E F E

The hives a set up 2' off the ground against a fence facing south.

When we got home I emptied the top body of one of the hives, I took the frond with all the bees on it still and put it over the top body and put the inner cover and the cover on like this.

Within an hour or so bees were foraging in the yard, visiting some of the flowers and the vegetable garden.

I later regretted leaving the palm frond there, and not wanting them to build some wonky comb on it, I went back, shook all the bees onto the lower box and removed the upper body. The queen was obvious as she fell on the top of the group of bees. I brushed a few bees from the edge and replaced the inner cover and the top. I did this in shorts with no veil or gloves without any problems

I assume that honey would be better for them nutritionally than white sugar and so mixed up some 50/50 honey water to put in the feeder. Some bees were in flight above the hive for a few hours but then things calmed down quite a bit

As of last night they were hunkered between the foundation of frame 8 through frame 9 and against the hive body wall, nothing had been consumed from the feeder.

Are there any chances of survival of this tiny swarm? What can I do to help them out. I have no hives to borrow brood from.

The hive that this swarm swarmed from is living in one of the block walls at the back of the church. Can I somehow use this hive to bolster this tiny swarm? Place my other hive close to it and put a one way cone over it maybe, bring the queenless hive back home and combine them somehow? the last few days have been highs of 70's lows in the lower 50's; looks as though it may bee this way for a week or so then it's going to cool down another 10 degrees or so.

Thanks for all ya'lls help. I tried to answer as many potential questions as I could. I'm sure ya'll will still have some though!

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

I would not open feed. If you only have a boardman feeder, put it in a box on top of the inner cover with the outer cover over it, sealed so that no bees can get in.

Feed them part of a protein patty and as much 1:1 syrup as they will take. Chances are they will build up, although slowly, since you won't have winter like we have up here. White sugar is just fine, less likely to ferment, and they will be out foraging some anyway.

Worst case they will die out after drawing some comb, and you will have nice drawn comb for next time.

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

Good idea, but his new colony needs something to anchor them to that new hive....That means comb and eggs, that will take a few days to get started. Don't move them until they are anchored to that hive box.

Last edited by honeyman46408; 11-20-2012 at 04:26 PM.
Reason: UNQ

LeeB
I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up :)

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

I did a hive rescue a couple of weeks ago and it was about 2 lbs . maybe. I ended up putting the pieces of recovered comb into 3 deep foundationless frames with rubber bands, then put 2 frames of plasticell in between them in a plywood 5 frame NUC. I put a 1 qt. Mason jar feeder. They are now foraging on warmer days and doing some comb building. On a warm day, deer season, non weekend, I will do a better inspection.
I am feeding 1:1 with Honey Bee Healthy and Amino B Booster, plus Mega Bee patties (1/3). I hope to nurse them through winter to move them into a 10 frame hive.
Yes feed to build them up! Inspect sparingly.

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

I put the feeder on the far right side of the hive (where the cluster is located), and I had reduced the entrance to 1" x 3/8" b y the end of the day Sunday. Can I make a protein patty or do I need to get them from somewhere? I like the idea of the Cleo Hogan trapout; wouldn't be able to get the queen (I have no brood) but could gain another hive from it.

One of the great things about a screened bottom board and being 2' off the ground is that you can observe without disturbing from beneath.

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

Diluted honey will ferment quite quickly because it inevitably has some yeast in it. Fermentation is inhibited by the lack of water, so when you add water they take off.

Syrup on the other hand will not have more than a very few live yeast cells, literally whatever falls into it while you make it or is in the water -- the sugar is boiled down out of solution, no live yeast in it when packaged.

You can make protein supplement from de-fatted soy flour, syrup, and brewer's yeast, or just order some pollen supplement from any of the major suppliers. Plain de-fatted soy flour will work in a pinch, just mix with syrup to make a thick past that will stay put on the top bars. I'd not feed more than 1/4 lb of it at a time, you are far enough south to be in prime small hive beetle territory, and you don't need an explosion of SHB in a tiny hive.

I was talking to a neighbor a few miles away at a social function, and he said he got a number of calls this fall in September for small swarms, about soft ball sized. Never had that happen before, and he got a kick out of the 9 lb swarm a buddy caught this spring. Must have been a huge hive.

Anyway, it's very hard for us to get a swarm that size into wintering condition here in a month. Even in a nuc box they would need a at least a couple frames of winter bees and a couple frames of honey, and that won't happen when our first frost date is Oct 15, they'd only be able to raise one round of brood in that time.

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

Tomorrow I will swap out the honey for sugar water. The honey that I fed was honey that neither my wife nor I enjoyed the flavor of and was happy to be rid of it. I did have concerns about fermentation and so held it at 140* for about ten minutes and boiled the lid and jar. I moved the feeder to an empty super above them with a inner cover between, I drilled a 1 1/2" hole for them to get to it. This morning about 20% of the bees returning from the field had considerable amounts of pollen, I feel more confident that they will do well knowing that they have at least some source of protein. When I get paid next week I will order some Ener-G-Plus from Brushy Mountain. I am also going to get a veil, and along with some other things a cardboard Nuc to use to "borrow" some of the field force from the hive in the wall a the church. They have managed to draw almost half a frame of comb. It looks nice and straight. I don't think that they have really figured out where the feeder is yet so I dripped some syrup through the hole on to the frames underneath, this seemed to have helped them find it.

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

Quick update on our little hive here in Florida. I've moved them to 2:1 based on a suggestion from Broodhead and I ended up purchasing 5lbs of MegaBee from Dadant. They have been taking anywhere from half a pint to a pint and a half depending on the day. I have yet to see a single egg from our queen, which does concern me. I had severely overestimated the amount of comb that the had made a week ago and did another inspection today. The hive that they had swarmed from has abandoned their home in the block wall of our church. I am mad that I did not do something to capture them sooner but have been pretty busy lately. Here are some pictures of there current progress.

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

I see capped brood on the foundation-free frame, so the queen has deposited some eggs anyway. Keep feeding and try to leave them undisturbed for a couple weeks. The bees might make it through the winter IF you can continue feeding through any cold spells. A thinner syrup will stimulate more comb building, also, make the entrance one drone bee wide.

LeeB
I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up :)

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

Definitely brood on both sides of the frame of their own drawn comb. Their honey has nice white cappings (top of the frame) and the brood has the off white (center). I couldn't see any eggs but look close at a good picture and you might. They look like tiny grains of rice standing straight up in the bottom center of a cell. After they hatch the bees add royal jelly which looks like a milky white fluid in the cell bottom. It looks like they are trying to make it. Keep feeding them the pollen pattie, they need it for the brood.

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

Although you still need to do some leg work to contact them, perhaps one of them would be willing to sell you a frame or two?? Even just a couple of frames of drawn comb would be a help for them. Those poor girls have a LOT of work ahead!

I also totally agree with the follower board (inside wall). Bees like to be tight together. I would definately reduce the space they 'see' so they are less overwhelmed. I would put a frame with foundation on either side of the cluster, then close off the rest of the hive until they have had time to fill their space. It is a lot less territory for them to have to defend, as well. Just my two cents! Keep us posted.

Re: Tiny swarm with queen, nuub needs help.

Looks great!

Button them up, keep feeding, and leave them alone -- too risky to keep peeking in with that small a cluster!

You can gauge progress easily if you have a screened bottom board, as the bees constantly drop bits of wax and debris. If you keep the board dry, you can pull it out and brush off the stuff once a week or so, and the fresh trash will tell you how much room they are using. You will have new bees emerging in a couple weeks, hopefully that will mean faster comb building and more brood!