Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

Originally Posted by redsox girl

How many different times can we see Mark do free style? I don't know, how many times can we see people do The Waltz. I know how long The Waltz has been around and I know the basics of all the `classic' dances. No where in my posts did I slam any of these dances or belittle them. That would be stupid. I simply pointed out that Mark is pushing the envelope on a show that is designed to entertain-and that's what he is doing- and I'm quite sure in 300 years freestyle will be treated with as much reverence and respect as The Waltz. And someone will be breaking the `rules' of freestyle. I have respect for all types of dance and I'm not going to slam Mark or anyone else who messes around with the rules in order to create something different. I also wrote that he isn't always successful, so it's not like I'm blindly following him. I simply like and appreciate watching people create and imagine. DWTS is not a professional dance competition, it's entertainment , If I want to watch a real dance show I can turn on PBS and watch one of their ballroom dance shows. That's when the rules matter. I can complain if the competitors don't follow the rules but aren't held accountable. I also said art can become static if nothing changes. I did not say The Waltz is static. What if realism was the only type of painting considered acceptable? Oh we can't have Pointillism or Cubism because they break the rules of Realism. Because they aren't as old as realism. Artists take from a source and they work at creating offshoots of that original source. I see elements of the classical dance in Marks work infused with newer elements. What's wrong with that? I appreciate it. Again, this show is about entertainment it is not a pro dance competition. Any complaints about the rules being a mess should be directed at the judges, plain and simple.

What you initally wrote was: " I think it's great you won't compromise or change or give into the hatred and the negative comments based not on your talent but how you are perceived. I loved what you brought to the dance floor and appreciate your willingness to push the boundaries--art forms cannot stay static or they will die." Since C/M certainly were not criticized for pushing the boundaries during their freestyle and since they were, after all, dancing, not painting portraits or composing concertos or writing sonnets, and were criticized for breaking the rules during dances like the VW and the jive (and by the judges--I'm not talking about the posters on this board), then to what art form did you expect people to think you were referring if not the traditional forms of ballroom dance? As for people complaining about breaking the rules of freestyle in 300 years, since freestyle, as defined by DWTS, doesn't have any rules at all, I hardly think that's likely. And yes, DWTS isn't a professional ballroom dance competition, but the dancers are expected to dance traditional ballroom dances--and not just Mark, but plenty of other dancers, have been criticized and had their scores dinged by the judges for not following the rules of that particular dance. Not everyone is universally entertained when he/she expects to see a waltz or a VW or a jive or whatever and sees something that doesn't fit that form. He/she might be fine with it in a freestyle round but not in a round that's supposed to be devoted to a particular traditional dance. It's like ordering one thing in a restaurant and being served another. The alternative may be perfectly fine in its own right, but if you're expecting a dessert and you're served a salad, it's not going to be what you expected to see on your plate, and you're likely to complain--and rightfully so.

Following the rules of a particular dance does not mean dance in general cannot grow or change. The development of new dances, as opposed to pretending that something that isn't a waltz is just a different version of a waltz, is how that typically happens. If Mark wants to try and popularize an entirely new dance, fine. They can even name it after him for all I care. But he ought not to try and pass it off as another form of ballroom dance that it isn't. There's nothing wrong with Mark (or anyone) fusing forms of dance or creating a new dance in a freestyle round or for the stage or for film or anywhere else where the rules of ballroom dance don't apply. But that's not what he should be doing if he and his partner are supposed to be doing a jive or a VW. As for your comparison with realistic art, it's not that I, or anyone else, is saying there should only be one form of dance but that if something isn't a particular type of dance, it shouldn't be called that type of dance or scored as if it is. There are many, many types of artistic styles, some much older and some much newer than the realistic style, but if someone painted a landscape and called it realistic when it was clearly impressionistic, the artistic world would question that categorization of that particular artwork. It wouldn't question the right of the artist to create it, but it might justifiably question the appropriateness of its inclusion in an exhibit devoted to realistic art.

As for my comments about Mark's freestyle, I specifically asked how many times have we seen Mark do a hip hop freestyle? Kym's freestyle with Hines was nothing like her freestyle with Donny. Maks' freestyle with Kirstie was certainly very different from his freestyle with Erin. Freestyle is all about creativity and trying something different. If Mark wanted to push his own boundaries, or the boundaries of dance, that would be the time and the place to do it. But he doesn't. Riding in on a bike or wearing flashing lights doesn't constitute a new spin on hip hop. It's just the same thing with different props. I've watched this show long enough that I automatically assumed Mark would do a hip hop freestyle, and sure enough, he did. But I had no definite idea of what Kym or Maks would do, because their freestyles vary by season and by partner.

I also think plenty of people, including myself, have directed complaints about the rules towards the judges and the producers of the show. People may have been irritated about M/C possibly being pulled into the finals via the WTA cha-cha, for instance, but many posts here pointed out that the show, not M/C, should never have done that. Posters may not have liked that M/C were the beneficiaries of that move, but they recognized who had the power to put it in place. And finally, if it's a show ultimately about entertainment, then why should anyone complain that people voted for the dancer they enjoyed most, regardless of whether he/she was technically the most skilled, as opposed to someone another poster felt was the superior, more "creative" dancer? If those who voted for Hines because they thought he was more entertaining, what makes him a totally undeserving winner, as you have claimed he is?

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

I did think the whole Ralph/Karina thing was a shame. I would have loved to have seen them get an interview. I guess I understand why. But that was odd, along with Maks's final speech. I don't think he really knew what to say.

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

Mark Ballas CHOSE to take part in a TV show and put himself before the public. Therefore, HE opened HIMSELF up to whatever criticisms, opinions, etc., that are leveled at him as a result of doing so.

All of us that post on this board CHOOSE to do so, and we are ALLOWED to reasonably express our criticisms, opinions, etc. of what we view --- the PERSONS and their ACTIONS that we view --- on various shows on our TV screens.

Hatred? Personal?

I don't think so.

But then again, that IS my opinion.

And I --- like everyone else --- am totally free to reasonably express it in this venue.

If I weren't, I wouldn't be here.

Everyone should express their views. However, when people post they should fully expect to have feedback from those who don't agree just as they have responses from those who do agree. Rebuttal to posts does not translate to "You can't say that." Once a posters words are out there people are free to agree or disagree and make observations. My opposing viewpoint in no way means you aren't allowed to say what you feel and vice versa.

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

Originally Posted by karalott

I did think the whole Ralph/Karina thing was a shame. I would have loved to have seen them get an interview. I guess I understand why. But that was odd, along with Maks's final speech. I don't think he really knew what to say.

Perhaps they preferred not to comment. It might have been difficult to do so if the show was intent on trying to brush over what happened the night they were eliminated--and I don't mean just the unusual move of a WTA dance but Bruno's remark that a great many people took to be a very sexist putdown of Karina, including K/R themselves. I know if I were given a choice of not saying anything or having to put up with the show pretending something didn't happen when it did or that something didn't have a direct effect on who got into the final and who didn't when it did (because no one was going to be able to beat a double digit advantage on voter support), I'd prefer not saying anything.

Heck, if Karina let them know that she wouldn't be giving them any interviews unless Bruno apologized on-air for his on-air pussy remark, and they didn't, so she didn't, I'd think she was fully within her rights to do so. That was just a really low thing for Bruno to have said, and even if he didn't mean it to have sexual overtones (and I can't imagine that he didn't know how that might be perceived), he could still have apologized for inadvertently embarrassing her or offending female viewers.

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

Originally Posted by Jenny1229

It's the top story on PittsburghLive which is affiliated with the Tribune Review. I'm definitely not saying that the overwhelming popularity contest was ok, but I think the Hines love carried a lot more weight in the voting than the Mark hatred so I hope that makes you feel a little less crazy in your support for Mark

At the beginning of the season when I heard Hines was on the show I made a comment that as long as he's half decent at dancing, the fanbase will carry him to the end. People say that Pittsburgh is a "drinking town with a football problem" and DWTS gave Steeler fans something to drink for and celebrate in the off season...

Oh my gosh that 's hilarious! I've never heard that before.
Yes, I do feel better. Thank you. You may have very well prevented me from losing my last bit of sanity. Maybe, I should move to Pittsburgh because I sure could use a drink
God, I thought The Red Sox/Yankees rivalry was brutal-they have nothing on DWTS!

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

Hines! I've got to admit that I had a body type bias against him. He's a stubby guy and that means I can't rely on comparing him to the pros since they have different bodies. He really makes me smile when he dances so I am glad he won!

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

Originally Posted by Tilden

Perhaps they preferred not to comment. It might have been difficult to do so if the show was intent on trying to brush over what happened the night they were eliminated--and I don't mean just the unusual move of a WTA dance but Bruno's remark that a great many people took to be a very sexist putdown of Karina, including K/R themselves. I know if I were given a choice of not saying anything or having to put up with the show pretending something didn't happen when it did or that something didn't have a direct effect on who got into the final and who didn't when it did (because no one was going to be able to beat a double digit advantage on voter support), I'd prefer not saying anything.

Heck, if Karina let them know that she wouldn't be giving them any interviews unless Bruno apologized on-air for his on-air pussy remark, and they didn't, so she didn't, I'd think she was fully within her rights to do so. That was just a really low thing for Bruno to have said, and even if he didn't mean it to have sexual overtones (and I can't imagine that he didn't know how that might be perceived), he could still have apologized for inadvertently embarrassing her or offending female viewers.

I'm thinking that's it, too, but way to make it even more obvious they're trying to cover up what happened. The WTA and Bruno's out of line comment will forever be etched into viewer's minds this season. Sadly, I don't think Bruno or the producers think there's anything wrony with his antics. I'm sure that's one reason the producers want the couples talking back to the judges (aside from the fact it'll create media buzz and ratings drama). They can turn it around that the couple stepped over the line and the judge was justified in calling them out for being a sore loser. I saw an interview with Bruno on EXTRA where he said it was caused by a 'language barrier' and that they more or less needed to suck it up and deal with it. I think the producers made another glaring omission by trying to pretend it didn't happen. It makes them look bad they have an over sex up, loose lipped judge. And the couples, 99% of the time, take it like pros and don't utter a peep. You know if Karina and Ralph battled it out with the judges they would have showed it over and over again, just like they did with Maks and CA last season. I loved Chris's imitation of Bruno rubbing his chest tonight That's too true. What I didn't like tonight is they didn't seem to mingle as much with the ousted celebrities. Some got more attention than others. The show didn't seem to have enough filler for once to drag out for 2 hours, even though they managed. It just felt odd tonight. Almost like they were trying to rush the show along. I could have done without Sara Evans performance, and given more time to the finalists. I did love DAD and seeing Maks and Chelsie win it for the first time. That was a good performance. Are the Go Gos reuniting or was this just an anniversary of their album appearance?

One more regarding Maks and whether or not he'll return next season; it used to be the 'will she or won't she' with Julianne after she left the show after season 8 but said she'll be back. No even tries to guess, we all know she's probably done. Now it seems Maks's attitude and actions have turned into will he or won't he. I know Maks said last season he was physically, mentally, and emotionally drained before the season started. He made it all the way to the finals during season 10 and never slowed down afterwards. Season 11 was really a hard season for him, dealing with Brandy, the negativity, the battle with CA, losing his grandmother, the gimmicks and stunt cast like with CA...he was done. I was honestly surprise he returned this season. I wonder if it was the last on his contract and he decided to finish it out in case he wanted to be done for good. Then after last season, he went and filmed The Bachelor, and that pretty much right up to the start of this season. So he hasn't had a break in a long time. If he did find love on TB, I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to get all that figured out and try and spend quality time with her and his family. DWTS does take up a lot of time. I will miss Maks greatly if he doesn't return So we could potentially be out Maks, Karina, and (hopefully) Mark next season. Derek, too, if he doesn't return, though I have a feeling he will. I really hope we get to see a pro win next time that never has. Seeing the same faces always advance to the winners circle gets old, even though I do adore Kym and think she's earned all her wins. She's amazing.

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

football fans, we are rabid about our favorite players or teams! The Steeler Nation is huge and not just in PA. I am a not a steeler fan but happen to think Hines is HOtttttt!lol

Evey season they have an NFL player as a contestant obviously to draw in male viewers especially in the desirable young demographic. I have no problem with that even though I don't care for football. What does bother me is the consistent over scoring and over praising (CA comparing Hines to Gene Kelley!) every season in order to keep the player around as long as possible.

I really wish they would reduce the percentage that that judges votes count to 20-30%. That would reduce the effect that judging bias and favoritism has on the outcome. With the judging counting for 50% a better dancer with more votes can be eliminated by an over scored contestant.

Judges scores are not the only way results are manipulated. Unflattering costumes and music that is inappropriate for the type of dance impact the overall impression of the dance.

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

Originally Posted by redsox girl

Oh my gosh that 's hilarious! I've never heard that before.
Yes, I do feel better. Thank you. You may have very well prevented me from losing my last bit of sanity. Maybe, I should move to Pittsburgh because I sure could use a drink
God, I thought The Red Sox/Yankees rivalry was brutal-they have nothing on DWTS!

I'm a New Yorker who is a Mets and Red Sox fan, and a Yankee hater! I haven't had a sane day since I was born, LOL!

Hines won because he had the football fans in his pocket. Even people in Green Bay probably voted for him, LOL. And there are older people out there (DWTS's core audience) who were Steelers fans in the 70's, but never watch the Disney channel.

To look at DialIdol, Chelsea never had a big fanbase during the whole season. From what I've read, she seems like more of a B-list Disney star. so maybe the young people didn't come out to vote for her. I don't think there was much producer tampering this season after all, other than the WTA dance. And that was just an overreaction to Brandy going home instead of Bristol last year -- I don't think it was aimed at anyone in particular.

Good season. Not great, but good. Thank God that Kirstie & Ralph were in the cast -- they made the season watchable for me.

Re: 5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

IMO this was one of the most boring finale's ever. Last night night was ok, but it felt rushed because they only had an hour to get both dances in. Tonight I was reminded how predictable this show has become. I knew Hines would win a long time ago, but it makes me sick Maks fell just short of winning for the first time.