Why cant England,the nation with the largest number of rugby players in the world(by a considerable distance) produce enough home grown players,to make up their national teams?

Since the advent of pro rugby England have constantly had to sign up second generation saffies, or kiwis who've spent enough time in England.

It would seem that there must be something wrong with an underage structure that has the most players in the world yet still has to find players of other nationalities to play for them. Ireland at least have the excuse of being a small nation with a limited base.

You could almost make a strong English team out of all the foreign players that have played for England since the on set of professionalism.

1.Matt Stevens (South Africa)

2.

3.Perry Freshwater (New Zealand)

4. Simon Shaw(its a push,but i cant think of many other second rows!)

5.

6.Hendrie Fourie (South Africa)

7.

8.Dan Ward (New Zealand)

9. Kyran Bracken (Ireland)(Yet again,its a stretch,I know he moved when he was young)

10.Henry Paul (New Zealand)

11.Phil Christophers (Germany!)

12.Shontayne Hape(New Zealand)

13.Riki Flutey(New Zealand)

14.Lesly Vainikolo (Tonga by way of New Zealand)

15. Mike Catt (South Africa)

Then you have players like Stuaty Abbott(South Africa), Nick Abendanon(South Africa), the Armitage boys were born in Trinidad and raised in France!

Feel free to name any others ive missed.

The Word Is Born

7th-November-2010, 14:53

Dylan Hartley

The Outlaw

7th-November-2010, 14:54

Ben Youngs- brilliant scrum half. Will be a future world number one.

Dan Cole- excellent prop.

Courtney lawes- serious talent in my view.

They are regrouping nicely at underage level. Seen most of their teams at u20 leveland they have some outstanding young players. They've only really got orgainsed at underage level in the last 3\4 years they are on the way back bigtime.

I agree with your analysis but i dont think that will repeat itself 4-5 years from now. They are hampered with a clown as a director of rugby and an inexperienced head coach. We're going to find it very difficult to beat them next year.

God help us with their playing resources if they ever truely get organised properly. 250,000 players.

Patman

7th-November-2010, 14:55

Well spotted TWIB. Hartley is kiwi. I had forgotten about
him.

JoeyFantastic

7th-November-2010, 14:58

Dylan hartley is from NZ, Mike Catt is from SA, Mordt is from
Zimbabwe, Barrett is from SA too, iirc.

Very very strange when you consider how strong England are
underage, the number of young players with AP clubs and the
massive player base.

For some reason a lot of English players seem to fail to step
up from having potential at 21 to being past it at 24.

kahalui

7th-November-2010, 14:58

Considering their population and sporting tradition, Eng are crap at most sports rugby being no exception.

7th-November-2010, 15:03

Why cant England,the nation with the
largest number of rugby players in the world(by a
considerable distance) produce enough home grown
players,to make up *their national teams?

Since the advent of pro rugby England have constantly
had to sign up second generation saffies, or kiwis who've
spent enough time in England.

It would seem that there must be something wrong with
an underage structure that has the most players in the
world yet still has to find players of other nationalities to
play for them. Ireland at least have the excuse of being a
small nation with a limited base.

You could almost make a strong English team out of all
the foreign players that have played for England since the
on set of professionalism.

1.Matt Stevens (South Africa)

2.

3.Perry Freshwater (New Zealand)

4. Simon Shaw(its a push,but i cant think of many other
second rows!)

5.

6.Hendrie Fourie (South Africa)

7.

8.Dan Ward (New Zealand)

9. Kyran Bracken (Ireland)(Yet again,its a stretch,I
know he moved when he was young)

10.Henry Paul (New Zealand)

11.Phil Christophers (Germany!)

12.Shontayne Hape(New Zealand)

13.Riki Flutey*(New Zealand)

14.Lesly Vainikolo (Tonga by way of New Zealand)

15. Mike Catt (South Africa)

Then you have players like Stuaty Abbott(South Africa),
Nick Abendanon(South Africa), the Armitage boys were
born in Trinidad and raised in France!

Feel free to name any others ive missed.

*

*

*

to be fair half the players you've mentioned as "foreign"
aren't really. Players like Shaw and Christophers may
have been born in a different country but they weren't from
that country - by that token the man who won his 100th
cap for Ireland yesterday should never be called Irish and
the Ireland #8 wasn't either.

bruffian

7th-November-2010, 15:09

to be fair half the players you've mentioned as "foreign"
aren't really. Players like Shaw and Christophers may
have been born in a different country but they weren't from
that country - by that token the man who won his 100th
cap for Ireland yesterday should never be called Irish and
the Ireland #8 wasn't either.

Ill give you shaw. He moved vey young and to be honest,I just wanted to use a 2nd row!

Christophers however did live in Germany until he was 16

7th-November-2010, 15:13

to be fair half the players
you've mentioned as "foreign" aren't really. Players like
Shaw and Christophers may have been born in a different
country but they weren't from that country - by that token
the man who won his 100th cap for Ireland yesterday
should never be called Irish and the Ireland #8 wasn't
either.

Ill give you shaw. He moved vey young and to be
honest,I just wanted to use a 2nd row!

Christophers however did live in Germany until he was
16

I'd think the Irish of all people should understand about
migrating and working abroad and children being raised in
that situation. I think there's some, like Flutey, you're spot
on with, guys who didn't make it in their own country and
then jump at an international place for the sake of it rather
than representing a country. But I'd suggest some of these
guys did represent England because they were English,
regardless of place of birth.

Mebawsa Ritchie

7th-November-2010, 15:18

Considering their population and sporting tradition, Eng are crap at most sports rugby being no exception.

You already have the response in your question... Players, playing. England does not have any idea about this concepts,is the country of cynism, of down-to-earth, of rationalism. No madness, no fantasy. Why does finance play such a big role in the country? Why is the city so powerfull? Except John Steed and his so fantastic and marvelous Emma P. (The most sexy woman in the world after mine...), I do not find any argument for this. And worse: The older I am, the more I appreciate England. Maybe because I feel blasé and hopeless. But fortunatelly, Ireland comes to rescue me. Slainte! smileys/wink.gif

bootlace

7th-November-2010, 16:55

The problem with England is that they concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you are.

7th-November-2010, 17:07

The problem with England is that they
concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing
skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get
into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough
for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached
by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash
approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they
think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you
are.

spot on - oddly also for a country that is capable of fronting
up to the likes of NZ and SA they are overly impressed
with players from those countries, like Flutey, even though
they weren't good enough to be internationals there.

bruffian

7th-November-2010, 17:29

The problem with England is that they concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of being physically powerful and skillful are mutually exclusive.

Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

7th-November-2010, 17:41

The problem with
England is that they concentrate on physical strength,as
opposed to footballing skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and
BOD would never get into an English team as they are'nt
physically big enough for their positions,the majority of
English clubs are coached by forwards,they tend to go for
the bish bash approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style
of rugby,they think that the bigger and stronger you are
the better you are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of
being physically powerful and skillful are mutually
exclusive.

Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a
monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are
beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've never understood
why we're naturally physically inferior due to genetics when
we come from hard, rural, manual labour, rough conditions
stock. The genetic thing with islanders, BTW, is supposed
to be for obesity not muscle - to the point it's been seen as
a problem.

Fact is in somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't
mutually exclusive because they develop their players
skills from such an early age that they can develop the
power at the right time without the skill set suffering. They
also develop the skills at an early age that maximise their
power. It's only really guys like Jason White who have the
technique to maximise the power. McCaw is physically
nothing exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -
genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on
so he gains more from his body.

I do honestly think England have suffered from bish, bash,
bosh rugby. Someone like Geordan Murphy, talented
though he is, stands out even more so when you watch him
in a Leicester match because his creativity is just so at
odds with the rest of the rugby being played.

bruffian

7th-November-2010, 17:54

The problem with
England is that they concentrate on physical strength,as
opposed to footballing skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and
BOD would never get into an English team as they are'nt
physically big enough for their positions,the majority of
English clubs are coached by forwards,they tend to go for
the bish bash approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style
of rugby,they think that the bigger and stronger you are
the better you are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of
being physically powerful and skillful are mutually
exclusive.

Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a
monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are
beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've never understood
why we're naturally physically inferior due to genetics when
we come from hard, rural, manual labour, rough conditions
stock. The genetic thing with islanders, BTW, is supposed
to be for obesity not muscle - to the point it's been seen as
a problem.

Fact is in somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't
mutually exclusive because they develop their players
skills from such an early age that they can develop the
power at the right time without the skill set suffering. They
also develop the skills at an early age that maximise their
power. It's only really guys like Jason White who have the
technique to maximise the power. McCaw is physically
nothing exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -
genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on
so he gains more from his body.

I do honestly think England have suffered from bish, bash,
bosh rugby. Someone like Geordan Murphy, talented
though he is, stands out even more so when you watch him
in a Leicester match because his creativity is just so at
odds with the rest of the rugby being played.

The genetics thing is a fact. End of.

Do you think its co-incidence that Samoa,Tonga and Fiji and New Zealanders of that decent,can constantly produce 6'2 17 stone wingers who can run like the wind?

Manual,hard working background has zero to do with genetics.

I doubt if Ireland could EVER prodcue someone with the physical capabilities of Vainikolo,Lomu,Nalaga or Tuilagi. It is simply not in our genetic makeup.

Yet the Islands which combined dont have Irelands population do it all the time,so of course genetics are involved

7th-November-2010, 18:02

The problem with England is that they
concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing
skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get
into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough
for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached
by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash
approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they
think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you
are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of
being physically powerful and skillful are mutually
exclusive.

Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a
monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are
beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've
never understood why we're naturally physically inferior
due to genetics when we come from hard, rural, manual
labour, rough conditions stock. The genetic thing with
islanders, BTW, is supposed to be for obesity not muscle -
to the point it's been seen as a problem. Fact is in
somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't mutually
exclusive because they develop their players skills from
such an early age that they can develop the power at the
right time without the skill set suffering. They also develop
the skills at an early age that maximise their power. It's
only really guys like Jason White who have the technique to
maximise the power. McCaw is physically nothing
exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -
genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on so
he gains more from his body. I do honestly think England
have suffered from bish, bash, bosh rugby. Someone like
Geordan Murphy, talented though he is, stands out even
more so when you watch him in a Leicester match because
his creativity is just so at odds with the rest of the rugby
being played.

The genetics thing is a fact. End of.

Do you think its* co-incidence that Samoa,Tonga and Fiji
and New Zealanders of that decent,can constantly produce*
6'2 17 stone wingers who can run like the wind?

Manual,hard working background has zero to do with
genetics.

I doubt if Ireland could EVER prodcue someone with the
physical capabilities of Vainikolo,Lomu or Tuilagi. It is
simply not in our genetic makeup.

Yet the Islands which combined dont have Irelands
population do it all the time,so of course genetics are
involved

actually things like the lifestyle form the bodies and the
natural development follows over centuries/millennia - it's
not a case of someone 25,000 years ago had good bone
structure so you still do today. The Irish peoples have
been living a lifestyle for millennia that would be influencing
our genetic make up.

I'd also say look at the number of big heavy guys the
islands produce who struggle to stay big muscular rather
then weighty - prime example a certain player who was
with Munster recently.

I'm not writing it off or denying these guys are naturally
very big. I'm just saying this idea that our genes are
skinny and weak so we cannot compete is an excuse. Look
at some of the guys playing GAA as amateurs and semi-
pro at most, big lads. We just have a poor development
structure that still isn't bring our players through to
anything like their natural physicality and skill sets. The
argument we cannot compete physically is allowing that to
continue.

bruffian

7th-November-2010, 18:09

The problem with England is that they
concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing
skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get
into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough
for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached
by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash
approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they
think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you
are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of
being physically powerful and skillful are mutually
exclusive.

Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a
monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are
beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've
never understood why we're naturally physically inferior
due to genetics when we come from hard, rural, manual
labour, rough conditions stock. The genetic thing with
islanders, BTW, is supposed to be for obesity not muscle -
to the point it's been seen as a problem. Fact is in
somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't mutually
exclusive because they develop their players skills from
such an early age that they can develop the power at the
right time without the skill set suffering. They also develop
the skills at an early age that maximise their power. It's
only really guys like Jason White who have the technique to
maximise the power. McCaw is physically nothing
exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -
genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on so
he gains more from his body. I do honestly think England
have suffered from bish, bash, bosh rugby. Someone like
Geordan Murphy, talented though he is, stands out even
more so when you watch him in a Leicester match because
his creativity is just so at odds with the rest of the rugby
being played.

The genetics thing is a fact. End of.

Do you think its co-incidence that Samoa,Tonga and Fiji
and New Zealanders of that decent,can constantly produce
6'2 17 stone wingers who can run like the wind?

Manual,hard working background has zero to do with
genetics.

I doubt if Ireland could EVER prodcue someone with the
physical capabilities of Vainikolo,Lomu or Tuilagi. It is
simply not in our genetic makeup.

Yet the Islands which combined dont have Irelands
population do it all the time,so of course genetics are
involved

actually things like the lifestyle form the bodies and the
natural development follows over centuries/millennia - it's
not a case of someone 25,000 years ago had good bone
structure so you still do today. The Irish peoples have
been living a lifestyle for millennia that would be influencing
our genetic make up.

I'd also say look at the number of big heavy guys the
islands produce who struggle to stay big muscular rather
then weighty - prime example a certain player who was
with Munster recently.

I'm not writing it off or denying these guys are naturally
very big. I'm just saying this idea that our genes are
skinny and weak so we cannot compete is an excuse. Look
at some of the guys playing GAA as amateurs and semi-
pro at most, big lads. We just have a poor development
structure that still isn't bring our players through to
anything like their natural physicality and skill sets. The
argument we cannot compete physically is allowing that to
continue.

Not saying we cant compete as a rugby team,just saying that physicaly we wont be able to match them. We,are not going to consistently produce 16 1/2 stone plus backs,who can run.

Same reason we'll probably never see a white 100m champion.

The Outlaw

7th-November-2010, 18:19

England are getting their act together behind the scenes. I think we're underestimating them a bit. If they find some decent centres they will be hugely competiitve next year.

peatbog

7th-November-2010, 18:20

Part of the problem in England and the other home nations is we play our season in worse conditions than the Southerners. as a result we traditionallyhave to play the conditions and that means moreforward 10 man orientated rugby than they do.where the backs can't apply skilful, ball in hand, offloading as much.

It might seem a bitextreme but the home nations are a bit more conservative i think in their approach to everything, not just rugby. therefore, the coaches up here still have a bit of a mentality of"everything was better in my day"mentality although that is changing because professionalism has forced it to. Sanzar on the other hand are younger more progressive countries ina lot of ways(don't anybody start a political debate please) and have more of a' can do' rather than a 'don't fail' attitude.

kahalui

7th-November-2010, 19:05

The problem with England is that they

concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing

skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get

into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough

for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached

by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash

approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they

think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you

are.

hmmm,perhaps. Although I dont think the concepts of

being physically powerful and skillful are mutually

exclusive.

Sonny Bill is known for his ball handling skills and hes a

monster. Indeed,most of the New Zealander backs are

beasts. Although genetics could play a large role in that.

Don't start me on the genetics stuff, I've

never understood why we're naturally physically inferior

due to genetics when we come from hard, rural, manual

labour, rough conditions stock. The genetic thing with

islanders, BTW, is supposed to be for obesity not muscle -

to the point it's been seen as a problem. Fact is in

somewhere like NZ skill and power aren't mutually

exclusive because they develop their players skills from

such an early age that they can develop the power at the

right time without the skill set suffering. They also develop

the skills at an early age that maximise their power. It's

only really guys like Jason White who have the technique to

maximise the power. McCaw is physically nothing

exceptional compared to the top Irish back rows -

genuinely. But his body position and technique is spot on so

he gains more from his body. I do honestly think England

have suffered from bish, bash, bosh rugby. Someone like

Geordan Murphy, talented though he is, stands out even

more so when you watch him in a Leicester match because

his creativity is just so at odds with the rest of the rugby

being played.

The genetics thing is a fact. End of.

Do you think its co-incidence that Samoa,Tonga and Fiji

and New Zealanders of that decent,can constantly produce

6'2 17 stone wingers who can run like the wind?

Manual,hard working background has zero to do with

genetics.

I doubt if Ireland could EVER prodcue someone with the

physical capabilities of Vainikolo,Lomu or Tuilagi. It is

simply not in our genetic makeup.

Yet the Islands which combined dont have Irelands

population do it all the time,so of course genetics are

involved

actually things like the lifestyle form the bodies and the

natural development follows over centuries/millennia - it's

not a case of someone 25,000 years ago had good bone

structure so you still do today. The Irish peoples have

been living a lifestyle for millennia that would be influencing

our genetic make up.

I'd also say look at the number of big heavy guys the

islands produce who struggle to stay big muscular rather

then weighty - prime example a certain player who was

with Munster recently.

I'm not writing it off or denying these guys are naturally

very big. I'm just saying this idea that our genes are

skinny and weak so we cannot compete is an excuse. Look

at some of the guys playing GAA as amateurs and semi-

pro at most, big lads. We just have a poor development

structure that still isn't bring our players through to

anything like their natural physicality and skill sets. The

argument we cannot compete physically is allowing that to

continue.

GAA players?? They get thrown around like rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're comparing them with

7th-November-2010, 19:27

GAA players?? They get thrown around like
rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're
comparing them with islanders for size?

No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA are managing
to produce big guys without it being their main job and it's not
like the big names are playing in that b*****dised money
making exercise either.

dropkick

7th-November-2010, 22:06

Theres plenty of GAA players who would have been suitable
for rugby. Dairmuid O'Sullivan, Cairan Whelan, Tommy Walsh
(Kerry) etc

Every body type has advantages and disadvantages.

The South Africans tend to produce the best forwards
physically with the England never far behind. England has a
massive population and rugby is the no 1 sport the South
Africans play so all there big farmers would be playing.

Charco

7th-November-2010, 22:20

GAA players??
They get thrown around like
rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're
comparing them with islanders for size?

No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA are
managing
to produce big guys without it being their main job and it's
not
like the big names are playing in that b*****dised money
making exercise either.

Like who, EO? What GAA players can physically put it up to
even the Irish rugby players?

bruffian

8th-November-2010, 00:55

GAA players??
They get thrown around like
rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're
comparing them with islanders for size?

No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA are
managing
to produce big guys without it being their main job and it's
not
like the big names are playing in that b*****dised money
making exercise either.

Like who, EO? What GAA players can physically put it up to
even the Irish rugby players?

Thats not really the point.

think the point is that if someone like Diarmuid O Suillivan was in a rugbyacademy at age 18 onwards,on a proper weights program,nutritionist etc,he'd have been as powerful as most international back rowers.

Same goes for Joe Canning,Stephen Banville, Tommy Walsh(Kerry) and a host of others.

They play an amateur sort,that relys more on endurance than power,so they of course wouldnt bulk up like rugby players.

But in term of natural size and strength,those lads have the match of most international rugby players.

Charco

8th-November-2010, 04:19

GAA players?? They get thrown
around like rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules
and you're comparing them with islanders for size?
<s&#111;ng>No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA
are managing to produce big guys without it being their
main job</s&#111;ng> and it's not like the big names are playing in
that b*****dised money making exercise either.
Like who, EO? What GAA players can physically put it up to
even the Irish rugby players?

Thats not really the point.

*think the point is that if someone like Diarmuid O
Suillivan was in a rugby*academy at age 18 onwards,on a
proper weights program,nutritionist etc,he'd have been as
powerful as most international back rowers.

Same goes for Joe Canning,Stephen Banville, Tommy
Walsh(Kerry) and a host of others.

They play an amateur sort,that relys more on
endurance than power,so they of course wouldnt bulk up
like rugby players.

But in term of natural size and strength,those lads have
the match of most international rugby players.

His point was about there being big players
currently in the GAA, so it was the point.

But yeah there's no argument there. Some GAA players
(like the ones you mentioned) would be well suited to
rugby.

kahalui

8th-November-2010, 09:19

GAA players??
They get thrown around like
rag dolls by the aussies in the comprimise rules and you're
comparing them with islanders for size?

No I'm making the point that amateurs in GAA are
managing
to produce big guys without it being their main job and it's
not
like the big names are playing in that b*****dised money
making exercise either.

Like who, EO? What GAA players can physically put it up to
even the Irish rugby players?

Thats not really the point.

think the point is that if someone like Diarmuid O Suillivan was in a rugbyacademy at age 18 onwards,on a proper weights program,nutritionist etc,he'd have been as powerful as most international back rowers.

Same goes for Joe Canning,Stephen Banville, Tommy Walsh(Kerry) and a host of others.

They play an amateur sort,that relys more on endurance than power,so they of course wouldnt bulk up like rugby players.

But in term of natural size and strength,those lads have the match of most international rugby players.

No they dont. The GAA players you're mentioning might make it size wise, but the majority wouldnt.

EO, The PIs dont need conditioning to get to the required size and strength. Thats the difference.

Balla Boy

8th-November-2010, 09:29

No they dont. The GAA players you're mentioning might make it size wise, but the majority wouldnt.

EO, The PIs dont need conditioning to get to the required size and strength. Thats the difference.

You can take an argument too far, I think.

There's plenty of conditioning work put in to building islanders like that. We're talking about, on average, the fattestpeople in the world - the frequently cited statistical block to Americans grabbing that title.

I wouldn't get too carried away with the notion that they're all invariable massive, either. I've played with a number of Islanders over the last few years and the Fijians in particular fall into the "wiry and evasive" mould as often as they fall into the "massive and powerful" mode.

We are, after all, talking about a group of nations whose limitations at international level have generally been defined by their inability to produce forwards.

sewa

8th-November-2010, 10:23

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

Aussiedub

8th-November-2010, 10:44

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

Why??

manofmunster

8th-November-2010, 11:21

The problem with England is that they
concentrate on physical strength,as opposed to footballing
skills,the likes of Shane Williams,and BOD would never get
into an English team as they are'nt physically big enough
for their positions,the majority of English clubs are coached
by forwards,they tend to go for the bish bash
approach,they rely on a 9 man 10 man style of rugby,they
think that the bigger and stronger you are the better you
are.

spot on - oddly also for a country that is capable of fronting
up to the likes of NZ and SA they are overly impressed
with players from those countries, like Flutey, even though
they weren't good enough to be internationals there.

I've been saying exactly that for years. England produce terrific rugby athletes. Their problem is that, for the most part, they do not produce terrific footballers.

manofmunster

8th-November-2010, 11:24

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

I'd agree with that too. It's not set in stone yet but - based on the respective performances over the weekend -we willhave to improve significantly if we are not to lose to MJ's Ingerland, who putup a good show on Saturday.

sewa

8th-November-2010, 11:57

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

I'd agree with that too. It's not set in stone yet but - based on the respective performances over the weekend -we willhave to improve significantly if we are not to lose to MJ's Ingerland, who putup a good show on Saturday. Exactly. They have a simple gameplan based around sheer size and power up front and also being defensively sound which works well for them. We are currently underpowered in the tight five no matter who we select by comparison

Aussiedub

8th-November-2010, 12:11

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

I'd agree with that too. It's not set in stone yet but - based on the respective performances over the weekend -we willhave to improve significantly if we are not to lose to MJ's Ingerland, who putup a good show on Saturday.

Exactly. They have a simple gameplan based around sheer size and power up front and also being defensively sound which works well for them. We are currently underpowered in the tight five no matter who we select by comparison

A front 5 of Court, Varley/Flannery, Ross, Casey, POC with Buckley, Flannery/Cronin, Ryan/Tuouhy coming on should be big enough to cope with them

sewa

8th-November-2010, 12:19

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Aussiedub

8th-November-2010, 12:22

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

tickettout

8th-November-2010, 12:24

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

sewa

8th-November-2010, 12:25

Expaining things to you is a waste of time soI won't bother. I am saying England will beat us and quite confortably so in the 6N using their boring power game. Make of it what you will

Aussiedub

8th-November-2010, 12:30

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

sewa

8th-November-2010, 12:39

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them. TT I have a problem. I am being stalked by strange men on the internet. They follow me everywhere asking stupid questions and have some strange desperate need for attention. They will literally say anything to get a reaction. Is there any help you can offer me?

bazzyg

8th-November-2010, 14:00

smileys/lol.gif

that's the best series of posts in a long time

kahalui

8th-November-2010, 14:29

No they dont. The GAA players you're mentioning might make it size wise, but the majority wouldnt.

EO, The PIs dont need conditioning to get to the required size and strength. Thats the difference.

You can take an argument too far, I think.

There's plenty of conditioning work put in to building islanders like that. We're talking about, on average, the fattestpeople in the world..more to do with their diet than anything else- the frequently cited statistical block to Americans grabbing that title.

I wouldn't get too carried away with the notion that they're all invariable massive, either. I've played with a number of Islanders over the last few years and the Fijians in particular fall into the "wiry and evasive" mould as often as they fall into the "massive and powerful" mode.

We are, after all, talking about a group of nations whose limitations at international level have generally been defined by their inability to produce forwards.

Well, from my experience.. living in Hawaii for a year and visiting Fiji and Samoa while i was out there, Id disagree with you and say,the average joe on the street in these neck of the woodsIS made for rugby. Of course, at pro level, conditioning is a requirement.

Even though the PIs tend to put on weight quickly... mainly due to the american style diet that was introduced a while back, they're still renowned for their speed and agility so im not sure what weight that holds inyour argument.Bear in mind,a lot ofislanders are overweight, because theyve spent generations livingoff fish and fruitand, all of a sudden,fast food came their way.

If, as EO suggests, GAA playerscould be turned intorugby players from an early age, they´d lose a lot oftheir speed trying to put on the necessary muscle mass, a problem the islanders dont have!!

The lack of good forward playin the PIshas more to do with the structure and organization of the game, esp. setpieces, than it has to do with size.

kahalui

8th-November-2010, 14:44

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

I'd agree with that too. It's not set in stone yet but - based on the respective performances over the weekend -we willhave to improve significantly if we are not to lose to MJ's Ingerland, who putup a good show on Saturday.

I agree as well. The most convincing aspect of theirplay is their scrum. They had the ABs on the backfoot all day and thats whatkept them in the game. Until we can gain parity at scrumtime against the big teamswe´re going to find it tough im afraid. Wales scrum was dominant against the aussies as well.

I wont be putting any dosh on an irish win againsteither teamthis 6N.. thats for sure.

Balla Boy

8th-November-2010, 14:55

Well, from my experience.. living in Hawaii for a year and visiting Fiji and Samoa while i was out there, Id disagree with you and say,the average joe on the street in these neck of the woodsIS made for rugby. Of course, at pro level, conditioning is a requirement.

Even though the PIs tend to put on weight quickly... mainly due to the american style diet that was introduced a while back, they're still renowned for their speed and agility so im not sure what weight that holds inyour argument.Bear in mind,a lot ofislanders are overweight, because theyve spent generations livingoff fish and fruitand, all of a sudden,fast food came their way.

If, as EO suggests, GAA playerscould be turned intorugby players from an early age, they´d lose a lot oftheir speed trying to put on the necessary muscle mass, a problem the islanders dont have!!

The lack of good forward playin the PIshas more to do with the structure and organization of the game, esp. setpieces, than it has to do with size.

My point about weight was just that they don't naturally come out as honed athletes - they can often run to fat pretty easily. And their indiginous diet is quite high fat - pork and coconut fat most prominently.

Not sure about the forwards thing, either. The usual European lock is coming in at 6'4/6'5 these days, which isn't common for Islanders.

What they do seem to produce a lot of is what was traditionally a rugby league physique - 5'11 to 6'2, 14/15 stone.

I think it's important not to get too carried away with the genetics bit though. This is, ultimately, about bell curves. The AB's may produce the odd Nonu at 6 foot odd, 16 stone plus and fast. But they don't produce that many of them. In fact, you've got Nonu, Umaga, Williams and who? The most influential centres they've produced in the last few years were Smith and Mauger, neither of whom fitted that mould.

In addition, the islanders in the NZ set up have occupied certain spots - the odd flanker/8, centres and back three. How many top class half backs have they contributed? How many locks? Or props?

Putting the success of NZ rugby down to the genetic make up of the islanders (which I'm not saying you did- just commenting generally) ignores the fact that most of their key players haven't been islanders.

If the original question is why can't England (or Ireland) match their production line, we still have to explain where the likes of McCaw, Carter, Hayman, The Franks Brothers right back to Kirwan, Jeff Wilson, Mehrtens, Chris Jack, Ian Jones, Cullen etc came from.

Ultimately, NH countries looking to emulate the player production of NZ shouldn't be getting hung up on the genetic make up of Island populations. It gives them an overall edge in couple of key positions, and that's about it.

Tony Soprano

8th-November-2010, 15:06

Is this the England that have contested 3 World Cup finals, winning one of them?

New Zealand have won 1 RWC at home and have contested one other final. If you want to look at a benchmark for a team producing something from nothing - look at the Aussies, NOT the Kiwis.

The Outlaw

8th-November-2010, 17:09

Expaining things to you is a waste of time soI won't bother. I am saying England will beat us and quite confortably so in the 6N using their boring power game. Make of it what you will

I agree but it wont be using a boring power game. They have a better back 3 then we do. If they had a centre partnership the SH might get worried.

kahalui

8th-November-2010, 18:07

[QUOTE=kahalui]

Well, from my experience.. living in Hawaii for a year and visiting Fiji and Samoa while i was out there, Id disagree with you and say,the average joe on the street in these neck of the woodsIS made for rugby. Of course, at pro level, conditioning is a requirement.

Even though the PIs tend to put on weight quickly... mainly due to the american style diet that was introduced a while back, they're still renowned for their speed and agility so im not sure what weight that holds inyour argument.Bear in mind,a lot ofislanders are overweight, because theyve spent generations livingoff fish and fruitand, all of a sudden,fast food came their way.

If, as EO suggests, GAA playerscould be turned intorugby players from an early age, they´d lose a lot oftheir speed trying to put on the necessary muscle mass, a problem the islanders dont have!!

The lack of good forward playin the PIshas more to do with the structure and organization of the game, esp. setpieces, than it has to do with size.

My point about weight was just that they don't naturally come out as honed athletes - they can often run to fat pretty easily. And their indiginous diet is quite high fat - pork and coconut fat most prominently.

Not sure about the forwards thing, either. The usual European lock is coming in at 6'4/6'5 these days, which isn't common for Islanders. you're talking about locks in this case- 2 of the 8 forwards in a pack. Thats more to do with the low population of the islands. Walk down the street in ireland, eng, france and tell me how many people you see the size of Toner, Casey, Matfiled etc etc... not too many. Its a numbers game, the NH rugby countries, population wise, are in a different category to the PIs. Either way, in this case, height and size/strength are 2 separate arguments.</span>

What they do seem to produce a lot of is what was traditionally a rugby league physique - 5'11 to 6'2, 14/15 stone. </span>

I think it's important not to get too carried away with the genetics bit though. This is, ultimately, about bell curves. The AB's may produce the odd Nonu at 6 foot odd, 16 stone plus and fast. But they don't produce that many of them. In fact, you've got Nonu, Umaga, Williams and who? The most influential centres they've produced in the last few years were Smith and Mauger, neither of whom fitted that mould. Im not sure what these examples prove tbh. Just because someone who doesnt fit the stereotype ends up playing for the ABs</span>, doesnt mean the PI argument is no longer valid.</span>

In addition, the islanders in the NZ set up have occupied certain spots - the odd flanker/8, centres and back three. How many top class half backs have they contributed? How many locks? Or props? half backs, not too many. FRs? Well, atm, they have Kevin Mealamu, hikawera elliot, John afoa, Neemia Tialata... any of them would walk onto the irish team.</span> I think i answered the lock question above.</span>

Putting the success of NZ rugby down to the genetic make up of the islanders (which I'm not saying you did- just commenting generally) ignores the fact that most of their key players haven't been islanders. So i suppose these guys arent/ havent been key players then bb: Lomu, Howlett, Muiiaina, Gear, rokococo, sivivatu, mealamu, Nonu, etc.</span> BB, you do realise that almost half of the current NZ squad are either from the islands or their parents/grandparents were. </span>

If the original question is why can't England (or Ireland) match their producti

Balla Boy

8th-November-2010, 18:28

I think the fact that people who don't fit the stereotype are still
successful ab's does make the focus on PI's less valid, to be honest.
Because it suggests pretty strongly that while there are great players
from Island backgrounds that's not the main factor in their success.

Of course the players you mention have been important, but they are
overwhelmingly back three players. And a constant stream of back
threes and the odd thirteen doesn't make a top class test team.

I wouldn't want to sound like I'm dismissing the contribution of island
players - they've been important contributors, even more so in the
professional era.

But the tradition and systems you mention are just as important. You
think I'm underestimating the contribution of PI players to the AB's. I
think you might be underestimating the contribution of NZ rugby to
the PI players.

Ultimately, a whole host of top class international players for the AB's
and elsewhere - SA, Oz, England, even Ireland - have shown that you
can excel at international level without being of PI extraction.

As far as I can see, that means that pointing to PI genetics as the
deciding factor in NZ player production is missing the point a bit. If it
wasn't then Fiji, Tonga and Samoa (and even the PI combined touring
side) would have achieved something at test level.

Feed a constant stream of PI players into the Irish system, and we
still wouldn't win a world cup. Like NZ don't, I guess.

kahalui

9th-November-2010, 13:11

BB, i think we´ve strayed away from what we were originally discussing- the sizeof PI rugby playersand GAAplayers... anyway,

You´ve based yourposts around theidea thata lot of the non PI NZplayers are great players-I agree. I dont know where you got the idea i didnt. You seem to think im dismissing the 'white' new zealanders which isnt the case at all. Guys like McCaw, Thorn etc are truly world class..

You also came to the conclusion that im suggesting PIs are the best rugby players in the world?The only points ive made haverefered totheir size and strength. FTR, i dont think PIs are 'BETTER' rugby players than the rest of the world. I think you've overinterpreted some of my comments tbh. To win games, we all know that skill, size, and strength are important but not as important as organization, discipline, game management, decision making etc etc.. Carter aside, ROG has been one of the best OHs in world rugby over the past decade and he doesnthave aPI physique.

'Feed a constant stream of PI players into the Irish system, and we
still wouldn't win a world cup. Like NZ don't, I guess'.

Here you go bb, the new and improved Irish team with 'NZ islanders' included.. just like the ABs:

Tialata&nbsp ;&nbsp ; Mealamu&nbsp ; John Afoa

DOC&nb sp;&nb sp; POC

kaino/Ferris Wally/SOB&nb sp; Heaslip/Vito

Weepu

ROG

Nonu

SB Williams/BOD

Gear Roko/Sivivatu

&nbs

kahalui

9th-November-2010, 14:32

Bob caseys recent comments re. Samoans and PIs..

'Genetically built for the sport, they possess that explosive power combined with great feet and wonderful hands while tackling like concrete mixers.'

cptcrowbar

9th-November-2010, 14:35

What you fail to understand with your silly team sheet there kahalui, is all those players you mention, are not All Blacks because they are brown skinned, it's because they've all been born and raised in the ultra tough New Zealand rugby system. Put them through the Irish system, they'd probably just end up as useless lumps.

For instance look at the Samoan team that will take the field against Ireland this week. Over half(prob more) will be New Zealand born players raised in the New Zealand system. If Samoa and Tonga didn't have access to this wealth of players raised in the New Zealand system, they'd be rugby backwaters.

Besides genetics is the most useless thing to argue over, because there's nothing you can do to change it. If you declare it the be all and end all(I realize you aren't I'm just saying it gets you nowhere to worry about it) of rugby success you may as well pack up and quit. Implementing better training, better youth rugby, and most importantly better coaching, can be achieved.

Basically that's why England is so inefficient. It's youth system is rotten. Compare it to the Australian Rugby League youth system. Similar player numbers, similar game, similar genetics, but a ruthlessly efficient youth system, and it's overflowing with talent.

kahalui

9th-November-2010, 14:39

What you fail to understand with your silly team sheet there kahalui, is all those players you mention, are not All Blacks because they are brown skinned, it's because they've all been born and raised in the ultra tough New Zealand rugby system. Put them through the Irish system, they'd probably just end up as useless lumps.

For instance look at the Samoan team that will take the field against Ireland this week. Over half(prob more) will be New Zealand born players raised in the New Zealand system. If Samoa and Tonga didn't have access to this wealth of players raised in the New Zealand system, they'd be rugby backwaters.

Besides genetics is the most useless thing to argue over, because there's nothing you can do to change it. If you declare it the be all and end all(I realize you aren't I'm just saying it gets you nowhere to worry about it) of rugby success you may as well pack up and quit. Implementing better training, better youth rugby, and most importantly better coaching, can be achieved.

Basically that's why England is so inefficient. It's youth system is rotten. Compare it to the Australian Rugby League youth system. Similar player numbers, similar game, similar genetics, but a ruthlessly efficient youth system, and it's overflowing with talent.

smileys/rolleyes.gif.. If you had read the posts properly you´d realise why i posted the team. BB, suggested, in the previous post to mine,that if we had the PI new zealanders available to us we still wouldnt win the WC.

Balla Boy

9th-November-2010, 14:40

Kahalui,

Agreed that we're at slightly crossed purposes here. I agree that the PI's have a good starting point genetically (on the whole), and on their contribution to AB rugby.

What I was less sure about (and misinterpreted now that I go back) was the notion that England (and other countries) struggle to produce players because they don't have that as a start base.

I think we're in agreement about the importance of the culture, systems and structures that they have in the SH, and the team you outlined probably highlights that. Those players would, of course, make us more competitive. The question is whether us, or England, would have taken the 11 yr old Weepu and turned him into the player he is.

kahalui

9th-November-2010, 14:50

Kahalui,

Agreed that we're at slightly crossed purposes here. I agree that the PI's have a good starting point genetically (on the whole), and on their contribution to AB rugby.

What I was less sure about (and misinterpreted now that I go back) was the notion that England (and other countries) struggle to produce players because they don't have that as a start base.

I think we're in agreement about the importance of the culture, systems and structures that they have in the SH, and the team you outlined probably highlights that. Those players would, of course, make us more competitive. The question is whether us, or England, would have taken the 11 yr old Weepu and turned him into the player he is.

Completely agree with all of that bb and glad to know we´re finally on the same page.

I dont need to explain to you thati only created the new Ireteambecause of the last paragraph in your post... it was more of a pish take than anything else... pity that was lost on others.

cptcrowbar

9th-November-2010, 15:37

What you fail to understand with your silly team sheet there kahalui, is all those players you mention, are not All Blacks because they are brown skinned, it's because they've all been born and raised in the ultra tough New Zealand rugby system. Put them through the Irish system, they'd probably just end up as useless lumps.

For instance look at the Samoan team that will take the field against Ireland this week. Over half(prob more) will be New Zealand born players raised in the New Zealand system. If Samoa and Tonga didn't have access to this wealth of players raised in the New Zealand system, they'd be rugby backwaters.

Besides genetics is the most useless thing to argue over, because there's nothing you can do to change it. If you declare it the be all and end all(I realize you aren't I'm just saying it gets you nowhere to worry about it) of rugby success you may as well pack up and quit. Implementing better training, better youth rugby, and most importantly better coaching, can be achieved.

Basically that's why England is so inefficient. It's youth system is rotten. Compare it to the Australian Rugby League youth system. Similar player numbers, similar game, similar genetics, but a ruthlessly efficient youth system, and it's overflowing with talent.

smileys/rolleyes.gif.. If you had read the posts properly you´d realise why i posted the team. BB, suggested, in the previous post to mine,that if we had the PI new zealanders available to us we still wouldnt win the WC.

Pretty sure he meant add Islanders and then see what the Irish system would produce, not take New Zealand produced talent and just slap it into the Irish team, that's stupid.

cptcrowbar

9th-November-2010, 15:43

pity that was lost on others.

haha, nice back pedal. Make your 'pish takes' more obvious next time.

9th-November-2010, 17:41

No they dont. The GAA players you're mentioning might
make it size wise, but the majority wouldnt. EO, The PIs
dont need conditioning to get to the required size and
strength. Thats the difference.

You can take an argument too far, I think.

There's plenty of conditioning work put in to building
islanders like that. We're talking about, on average, the
fattest*people in the world - the frequently cited statistical
block to Americans grabbing that title.

I wouldn't get too carried away with the notion that
they're all invariable massive, either. I've played with a
number of Islanders over the last few years and the Fijians
in particular fall into the "wiry and evasive" mould as often
as they fall into the "massive and powerful" mode.

We are, after all, talking about a group of nations whose
limitations at international level have generally been
defined by their inability to produce forwards.

thanks for finding that link, I couldn't find anything but I
know I didn't imagine the whole thing about obesity.

kahalui

9th-November-2010, 18:21

pity that was lost on others.

haha, nice back pedal. Make your 'pish takes' more obvious next time.

... maybe a bit of back pedalling would do you good. You shouldnt have taken my team literally, which is what you did.

You seem like an angry person crowbar. Anyway, ill do what i want with my pisstakes, thanks anyway.smileys/cool.gif

ur actually telling me genetics has nothing to do with it!!!
Paddy Wallace is 5' 11".

He's still as light as a breeze.

no-payne-no-gain

11th-November-2010, 21:25

basically Ireland or any home nation will never be truly better
than NZ or OZ!! end of discussion!

sewa

11th-November-2010, 21:47

You must be right. Sure dont NZ havea cabinet full of RWC trophies smileys/lol.gif

dropkick

11th-November-2010, 21:51

basically Ireland or any home
nation will never be truly better
than NZ or OZ!! end of discussion!

Very inspirational! smileys/lol.gif

sewa

13th-November-2010, 20:21

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc... Anyone seen Aussiedub?

The Outlaw

13th-November-2010, 20:36

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

Anyone seen Aussiedub?

He bought a ticket on that boat of yours thats sinking in the English Channel. The Australian front row tried to prop it up but to no availsmileys/lol.gif

sewa

13th-November-2010, 20:52

Did he buy it with free money. You could do with some I hear. A few bad bets latelysmileys/wink.gif

Aussiedub

13th-November-2010, 21:55

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

Anyone seen Aussiedub?

He bought a ticket on that boat of yours thats sinking in the English Channel. The Australian front row tried to prop it up but to no availsmileys/lol.gif

Just watched the advantages of picking a balanced pack in every row...heaven forbid we would actually do that..

JoeyFantastic

13th-November-2010, 22:01

I agree that the ten of them would be
enough to cope with*Englands front five. Unfortunately we
wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in
England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery,
POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope
with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks
that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against
Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

Anyone seen Aussiedub?

He bought a ticket on that boat of yours thats sinking in
the English Channel. The Australian front row tried to prop
it up but to no availsmileys/lol.gif

Just watched the advantages of picking a balanced pack
in every row...heaven forbid we would actually do
that..

As long as we pick a showpony at 8 we won't have a
balanced backrow, how many games has he gone missing
in in a row now? At least Kidney had the sense to sub him
while the game was saveable today.

sewa

13th-November-2010, 22:09

[/QUOTE]

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

[/QUOTE] Anyone seen Aussiedub? [/QUOTE]

He bought a ticket on that boat of yours thats sinking in the English Channel. The Australian front row tried to prop it up but to no availsmileys/lol.gif

[/QUOTE]

Just watched the advantages of picking a balanced pack in every row...heaven forbid we would actually do that..[/QUOTE] I think we are making progress with Aussiedub. He has for the first time in his life admitted he was wrong

If we were couldn't grow to 6:4 then you'd have an argument but as it stands you have made a very valid non-point.

Munsterboy

14th-November-2010, 09:58

Where the genetics come in is in the numbers of big players
we have to choose from. We can produce the odd genetic
freak like D Wallace or Ferris but the islanders produce a lot
more.

If SBW grew up in Ireland he'd almost certainly be a back
row forward because we wouldn't have the luxury of playing
a guy of that size and athleticism in the backs. They're too
rare.

Aussiedub

14th-November-2010, 10:35

I agree that the ten of them would be
enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we
wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in
England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery,
POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope
with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks
that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against
Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

Anyone seen Aussiedub?

He bought a ticket on that boat of yours thats sinking in
the English Channel. The Australian front row tried to prop
it up but to no availsmileys/lol.gif

Just watched the advantages of picking a balanced pack
in every row...heaven forbid we would actually do
that..

As long as we pick a showpony at 8 we won't have a
balanced backrow, how many games has he gone missing
in in a row now? At least Kidney had the sense to sub him
while the game was saveable today.

So what should a No8 do in your eyes?? Should he be like Parisse, Harinorduquay, Spies etc whose role is to provide a wide running carrying option who get rated the best going??? Amazing how guys like Cheika, Kidney, McGeechan etc rate him exceptionally highly.

So scoring tries, winning turnovers, making tackles, winning lineout(maybe one of our 2nd rows could try doing that for once??)etc counts as going missing???

Maybe one day you'll accept that the main reason Leinster are superior to Munster at the moment is due to a more balanced pack and a better backrow!!

sewa

14th-November-2010, 10:44

Leinster scrapeda winat home against us but are way behind us in the Ml table. Lets see how it pans out over a season before awarding any medals shall we?

Hugonaut

14th-November-2010, 10:49

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.

However, it's fair to to say that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition. I think the same can be said for a lot of players â€“ Brian O'Driscoll, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Sean O'Brien, Jonathan Sexton.

Players look disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].

They've had a huge amount of time in the international set-up away from their home provinces, so it's particularly worrying. England, on the other hand, looked incredibly confident and precise yesterday, a great performance.

Ben Youngs, Courtney Laws, Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Tom Croft all young players â€“ the "England can't produce players" argument pretty much blown out of the water in the last two matches.

Players look disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].

Sextons form was just as poor for Leinster as it was for Ireland

Munsterboy

14th-November-2010, 10:55

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument
is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see
JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.However, it's fair to to
say that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the
same standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and
it's not necessarily to do with the standard of the
opposition. I think the same can be said for a lot of
players â€“* Brian O'Driscoll, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick
O'Driscoll, Sean O'Brien, Jonathan Sexton.Players look
disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for
Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their
provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].
They've had a huge amount of time in the international
set-up away from their home provinces, so it's particularly
worrying. England, on the other hand, looked incredibly
confident and precise yesterday, a great performance.Ben
Youngs, Courtney Laws, Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Tom
Croft all young players â€“ the "England can't produce
players" argument pretty much blown out of the water in
the last two matches.

Due to the extra game, the players have had less prep
time this season than before. The pack looks disjointed
because they've hardly played together and the lineup
changed a great deal from last week to this. Takes time
to gel. If we want to see experimentation we can't expect
to see province-like cohesion in every game too.

The backline malfunction last week was harder to explain
given that it was Leinster plus Tommy. Granted they were
getting poor ball and the weather was s**te but they
looked like strangers to one another. Not comfortable
with Gaffney's approach perhaps?

Aussiedub

14th-November-2010, 11:01

Leinster scrapeda winat home against us but are way behind us in the Ml table. Lets see how it pans out over a season before awarding any medals shall we?

Amazing that with a front 5 containing Healy, Ross, Toner who you claim - can't scrummage, cant do anything apart from scrummage and can't carry and is too weak to play managed to cope comfortably against Wian, Hayes, Ryan/MOD even with Nacewa at No10...

Players look disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].

Sextons form was just as poor for Leinster as it was for Ireland

Nah, you're wrong there. Leinster have won every match they've played since Sexton came back, lost every match when he was out injured/with the Irish squad.

He's been especially good in the HEC [scored all our points vs Saracens away, for example]. It's not really translating to international level though, as with a good few other players.

Hugonaut

14th-November-2010, 11:19

Due to the extra game, the players have had less prep

time this season than before. The pack looks disjointed

because they've hardly played together and the lineup

changed a great deal from last week to this. Takes time

to gel. If we want to see experimentation we can't expect

to see province-like cohesion in every game too.

The backline malfunction last week was harder to explain

given that it was Leinster plus Tommy. Granted they were

getting poor ball and the weather was s**te but they

looked like strangers to one another. Not comfortable

with Gaffney's approach perhaps?

I agree with that, absolutely.

I'm still worried about the calibre of individual performances though, because I haven't seen one player put together a very good 80 mins yet â€“ the last person who really impressed me with an individual performance over the guts of the game was Mushy against New Zealand.

JoeyFantastic

14th-November-2010, 11:59

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument
is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see
JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.However, it's fair to to say
that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same
standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not
necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition.

Heaslip is a senior player, when we looked capable of
losing yesterday's game, Kidney hauled him off. That's
fairly outrageous tbh and it's recognition that he was not at
the races, imo.

He'll no doubt start next weekend, as will Best, DOC and
Kearney, all seen as senior players and none of whom
should be in the squad.

When, in your opinion, did any of those four last put in a
performance that merited the seniority they have for
Ireland?

Aussiedub

14th-November-2010, 12:08

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument
is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see
JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.However, it's fair to to say
that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same
standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not
necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition.

Heaslip is a senior player, when we looked capable of
losing yesterday's game, Kidney hauled him off. That's
fairly outrageous tbh and it's recognition that he was not at
the races, imo.

He'll no doubt start next weekend, as will Best, DOC and
Kearney, all seen as senior players and none of whom
should be in the squad.

When, in your opinion, did any of those four last put in a
performance that merited the seniority they have for
Ireland?

Top players are limited to the amount of gametime they get so like Wallace was rested and Ferris on the bench Heaslip was taken off after 60 mins like he has been a few times for Leinster this season.

Maybe being a No8 in a team without a scrum or 2nd rows who can win lineouts kinda limits the scope for a No8 to excel.

JoeyFantastic

14th-November-2010, 12:18

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument
is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see
JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.However, it's fair to to say
that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same
standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not
necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition.
Heaslip is a senior player, when we looked
capable of losing yesterday's game, Kidney hauled him off.
That's fairly outrageous tbh and it's recognition that he was
not at the races, imo. He'll no doubt start next weekend, as
will Best, DOC and Kearney, all seen as senior players and
none of whom should be in the squad. When, in your
opinion, did any of those four last put in a performance that
merited the seniority they have for Ireland?

Top players are limited to the amount of gametime they
get so like Wallace was rested and Ferris on the bench
Heaslip was taken off after 60 mins like he has been a few
times for Leinster this season.

Maybe being a No8 in a team without a scrum or 2nd
rows who can win lineouts kinda limits the scope for a No8
to excel.

So not only are players being rested for International
games, they are being rested during International games.
Nice one, Heaslip was taken off because he was a disaster
in the loose yesterday. Kidney kept guys like DOC and BOD
on so why bother "resting" Heaslip?

Do you still think he's the best 8 in the world?

Mcork

14th-November-2010, 12:38

It's apparent that our front 5 aren't remotely near INTl standard either individually or collectively. Our only player who can be considered INTL standard (and one of the best in his position) in the front 5 is currently in rehab (Get well soon Paul). Perhaps Flannery as well if he can solve his disciplinary issues.

All the rest have clear and all to obvious weaknesses in the basics of their game or are simply too old now. Time to bring in the younger members who show promise and work on getting them up to standard with a mixture of gametime and coaching.

Ross is an unknown (at INTL level) and simply has to get his chance now - what have we got to lose exactly? Pursueing the 'investment' in Hayes is sadly like throwing money at Anglo Irish - you'll never get it back.

Cronin will get better (and he's already not bad although some way short of where he needs to be), Ditto Healy. Toner is a big lad and you'd expect him to be able to win ball in the LO if the throwing and systems were any bit decent. Mushy is fine against most nations in the scrum and anyway is already a big improvement on Hayes there. He might struggle against the real powerful scrummaging nations. This is where Ross might come in. Court OK but not more than that - can do a job though. DO'C has probably been the most disspointing of our tight forwards in the set piece. He makes up for it a bit in the loose but I think the lesson of this A.I's is that without PO'C, he's a bit lost at this level.

That doesn't completely excuse the rest of our team (although it is a mitigating factor) who are by and large made up of players who have performed well at INTL level in the near past. In my opinion, our backrow &amp; backs still compare favourably with anything in the NH. We need more competition for places and some fresh faces to push others. We are short confidence now and a coherent gameplan but that can come right very quickly. The problems aren't as chronic as with our front 5.

Aus if anything have even worse front 5 players and yet their backrow &amp; backs still produce the business although a clear weakness like that will definetly count against you in the end.

Hugonaut

14th-November-2010, 12:38

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument

is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see

JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.However, it's fair to to say

that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same

standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not

necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition.

Heaslip is a senior player, when we looked capable of

losing yesterday's game, Kidney hauled him off. That's

fairly outrageous tbh and it's recognition that he was not at

the races, imo.

He'll no doubt start next weekend, as will Best, DOC and

Kearney, all seen as senior players and none of whom

should be in the squad.

When, in your opinion, did any of those four last put in a

performance that merited the seniority they have for

Ireland?

Kearney? His best performances for Ireland came against NZ and Australia in summer tour 2008. Really excellent performances for the Lions in 2009 test will obviously stand in his favour as well though, and he was good against South Africa in November 2009 [they tend to play into his hands]. Didn't think he had a good 2010 6 Nations.

With regards to DOC, I'm sure you're aware that I'm not a big fan as a player. Great guy, can see why everybody likes him, good attitude to training and to people in general, but not half as good as everybody on this board makes him out to be.

A very average international second row at set-pieces [neither Irish nor Munster scrum ever strong when he's involved, only average at the front of the lineout and not a useful option anywhere else], underpowered as a mauler and clear-out artist in comparison to first-raters like Bakkies, Thorne, Nallet, Shaw and Sharpe, a totally ineffective carrier at international level and not a destructive tackler. Fantastic workrate, a lot of inadequacies. The best recent game I can remember him having was against France in 6 Nations 09.

Besty is different in that he has had a recent serious injury in comparison to the others. Thought he did well considering he was only back against England in the 6 Nations last year, but that opinion was sort of coloured by how irritated I was at Flannery and the fact that Besty was back so ahead of schedule. He was probably worse than average against Scotland and pretty poor against the Boks recently.

Against that, his form in 2009 was very good whenever he got gametime, and I thought [with many others] that he was a damn sight better than Ross Ford or Lee Mears and should have got a Lions call-up.

With Heaslip, you're probably going back to the games against England and Wales in the 2010 6 Nations, when he was good, especially in the former. Getting sent off and banned against the ABs early in the game ruined Ireland's chances of even putting up a fight, so that goes massively against him.

In comparison to the others though, he plays at an extremely high level week-in, week-out for Leinster. He's the best player in the country at the moment, in my opinion. I do agree, however, that he's not translating that across to international level â€“ for example Nick Easter was excellent in the second half against the All Blacks and for the entire game against the Wallabies, and Heaslip hasn't shown that form since last year [calendar year] for Ireland.

SFBB

14th-November-2010, 14:44

I think there's some, like Flutey, you're spot
on with, guys who didn't make it in their own country and
then jump at an international place for the sake of it rather
than representing a country.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about Tom Court for a
second there.

JoeyFantastic

14th-November-2010, 14:49

I think there's some, like Flutey, you're spot
on with, guys who didn't make it in their own country and
then jump at an international place for the sake of it rather
than representing a country.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about Tom Court for a
second there.

Tom Court's grandfather is from Limerick and he has some
family on his mother's side from Mayo. It's not quite the same
as flutey but I can see where you're coming from.

lawrence

14th-November-2010, 15:05

they didnt seem to have any player production problems beating australia yesterday....

Mebawsa Ritchie

14th-November-2010, 15:24

I only saw the England vs Aussie game today. England played well. They attacked tremendously.

Infacta both the English and Welsh games were so far ahead of the dross Ireland produced it wasn't funny.

BOD and Wallace had days to forget. Heazlip went into invisble mode too.

The Outlaw

14th-November-2010, 15:45

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.

However, it's fair to to say that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition. I think the same can be said for a lot of players â€“ Brian O'Driscoll, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Sean O'Brien, Jonathan Sexton.

Players look disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].

They've had a huge amount of time in the international set-up away from their home provinces, so it's particularly worrying. England, on the other hand, looked incredibly confident and precise yesterday, a great performance.

Ben Youngs, Courtney Laws, Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Tom Croft all young players â€“ the "England can't produce players" argument pretty much blown out of the water in the last two matches.

Sorry hugo but I have to disagree- I could pull up a thesis on how bad Heaslip's form is against top ranked nations. I'm fed up watching thisguy being mentioned in the same breath as Parisse. Parisee looks brilliant playing for an average team like Italy. Playing for New Zealand he would be the greatest of all time. Yet time and again people refer to Heaslip as the world number one 8.

He plays well against middle ranked opposition. Was pretty anonymous for the Lions. And generally makes more highlights in Krystle nightclub then he does on the World Stage. Big fish in a small pons. And I could apply that to another half dozen Irish players. Future captain my arse.

tickettout

14th-November-2010, 15:52

Wait and see Heaslip rediscover his form against Scarlets at home etc. in the ML in a couple of weeks.

Is he meant to be pack leader now that O Connell is out?

Hugonaut

14th-November-2010, 16:56

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.

However, it's fair to to say that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition. I think the same can be said for a lot of players â€“ Brian O'Driscoll, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Sean O'Brien, Jonathan Sexton.

Players look disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].

They've had a huge amount of time in the international set-up away from their home provinces, so it's particularly worrying. England, on the other hand, looked incredibly confident and precise yesterday, a great performance.

Ben Youngs, Courtney Laws, Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Tom Croft all young players â€“ the "England can't produce players" argument pretty much blown out of the water in the last two matches.

Sorry hugo but I have to disagree- I could pull up a thesis on how bad Heaslip's form is against top ranked nations. I'm fed up watching thisguy being mentioned in the same breath as Parisse. Parisee looks brilliant playing for an average team like Italy. Playing for New Zealand he would be the greatest of all time. Yet time and again people refer to Heaslip as the world number one 8.

He plays well against middle ranked opposition. Was pretty anonymous for the Lions. And generally makes more highlights in Krystle nightclub then he does on the World Stage. Big fish in a small pons. And I could apply that to another half dozen Irish players. Future captain my arse.

I think you've got me a bit wrong there Outlaw, I sort of agree with you. Heaslip probably hasn't made the sort of impact against big international teams that you would imagine he would from his excellent performances in HEC games.

Harinordoquy was clearly a better No8 than him in last year's 6 Nations, but that's no shame, he was the outstanding player in the tournament. Parisse is also an absolute class act, Keiran Reid has come on a huge amount ... as has Nick Easter! Huge game from him against Australia and a great second half against the All Blacks.

Palu will be straight back in the Aussie team when fit, and the Beattie is a very, very decent player for Scotland. Lots of good No8s out there at the moment.

Heaslip has the chance to test himself against two excellent No8s in Reid and the excellent Fernandez Lobbe. I'll be very interested to see how he does.

The Outlaw

14th-November-2010, 17:07

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.

However, it's fair to to say that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition. I think the same can be said for a lot of players â€“ Brian O'Driscoll, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Sean O'Brien, Jonathan Sexton.

Players look disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].

They've had a huge amount of time in the international set-up away from their home provinces, so it's particularly worrying. England, on the other hand, looked incredibly confident and precise yesterday, a great performance.

Ben Youngs, Courtney Laws, Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Tom Croft all young players â€“ the "England can't produce players" argument pretty much blown out of the water in the last two matches.

Sorry hugo but I have to disagree- I could pull up a thesis on how bad Heaslip's form is against top ranked nations. I'm fed up watching thisguy being mentioned in the same breath as Parisse. Parisee looks brilliant playing for an average team like Italy. Playing for New Zealand he would be the greatest of all time. Yet time and again people refer to Heaslip as the world number one 8.

He plays well against middle ranked opposition. Was pretty anonymous for the Lions. And generally makes more highlights in Krystle nightclub then he does on the World Stage. Big fish in a small pons. And I could apply that to another half dozen Irish players. Future captain my arse.

I think you've got me a bit wrong there Outlaw, I sort of agree with you. Heaslip probably hasn't made the sort of impact against big international teams that you would imagine he would from his excellent performances in HEC games.

Harinordoquy was clearly a better No8 than him in last year's 6 Nations, but that's no shame, he was the outstanding player in the tournament. Parisse is also an absolute class act, Keiran Reid has come on a huge amount ... as has Nick Easter! Huge game from him against Australia and a great second half against the All Blacks.

Palu will be straight back in the Aussie team when fit, and the Beattie is a very, very decent player for Scotland. Lots of good No8s out there at the moment.

Heaslip has the chance to test himself against two excellent No8s in Reid and the excellent Fernandez Lobbe. I'll be very interested to see how he does.

The problem is we have very little concept of what world class actually means. Going abroad is the best thing Heaslip could do. He would start off as a nobody in somewhere like France. And then we'll see what he's made of. As long as he stays in Ireland he wont improve one iota

Players look disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].

Sextons form was just as poor for Leinster as it was for Ireland

Nah, you're wrong there. Leinster have won every match they've played since Sexton came back, lost every match when he was out injured/with the Irish squad.

He's been especially good in the HEC [scored all our points vs Saracens away, for example]. It's not really translating to international level though, as with a good few other players.

Nonsense. The fact that he kicked a few points in Saracens is being used as an excuse for rank bad form. Looking forward to the HEC returning so we can see more of him playing like that smileys/lol.gif

Hugonaut

14th-November-2010, 19:36

Nonsense. The fact that he kicked a few points in Saracens is being used as an excuse for rank bad form. Looking forward to the HEC returning so we can see more of him playing like that smileys/lol.gif

Grand, so am I. He's playing well for Leinster, I'll be happy to see him continue in that form.

Aussiedub

15th-November-2010, 07:54

The 'Heaslip is a showpony' argument is the usual provincial tosh, although I'm surprised to see JoeyFantastic stoop to that level.

However, it's fair to to say that Heaslip isn't playing at international level to the same standard he's playing his provincial rugby â€“ and it's not necessarily to do with the standard of the opposition. I think the same can be said for a lot of players â€“ Brian O'Driscoll, Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll, Sean O'Brien, Jonathan Sexton.

Players look disjointed, unconfident and uncomfortable playing for Ireland, where they look pretty great playing for their provinces [especially the last three, on recent form].

They've had a huge amount of time in the international set-up away from their home provinces, so it's particularly worrying. England, on the other hand, looked incredibly confident and precise yesterday, a great performance.

Ben Youngs, Courtney Laws, Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Tom Croft all young players â€“ the "England can't produce players" argument pretty much blown out of the water in the last two matches.

Sorry hugo but I have to disagree- I could pull up a thesis on how bad Heaslip's form is against top ranked nations. I'm fed up watching thisguy being mentioned in the same breath as Parisse. Parisee looks brilliant playing for an average team like Italy. Playing for New Zealand he would be the greatest of all time. Yet time and again people refer to Heaslip as the world number one 8.

He plays well against middle ranked opposition. Was pretty anonymous for the Lions. And generally makes more highlights in Krystle nightclub then he does on the World Stage. Big fish in a small pons. And I could apply that to another half dozen Irish players. Future captain my arse.

How would Parisse do against a team without a scrum or a weak pack though??? Whatever else about Italy they have a very strong scrom and pack with a lot more ball carrying forwards than we do so he spends lots of time away from the pack and carrying in space.

Heaslip struggled at the back of a pack that was over powered for the first two tests and in a totally unbalanced backrow but when they actually put in a balanced backrow he was very good.

sewa

13th-February-2011, 08:11

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc... ADHD - any update on this smileys/lol.gif

Aussiedub

13th-February-2011, 08:35

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

ADHD - any update on this smileys/lol.gif

So obviously you would prefer Palmer/Deacon to POC/DOC then?? If we picked the right players in form we should be better. But if you look at the English team they have balance in it in every row which we don't have.

sewa

13th-February-2011, 08:37

bo***cks. Classic backtracking from yourself.

bruffian

13th-February-2011, 08:50

Id still stand behind my claim that England find it very hard to produce players,considering the have the highest rugby playing population in the world.

Still had Shontayne Hape,Dylan Hartely and Hendrie Fourie on the panel yesterday.

Even Corbisiero was born in NY!....(although he did move quite young)

sewa

13th-February-2011, 08:54

Id still stand behind my claim that England find it very hard to produce players,considering the have the highest rugby playing population in the world.

Still had Shontayne Hape,Dylan Hartely and Hendrie Fourie on the panel yesterday.

3 out of 22 being dodgy with regard to their nationality is hardly unusual in international sides. Boss isnt the only foreigner we have used and Strauss will go straight in once he is Qualified

bruffian

13th-February-2011, 08:57

Id still stand behind my claim that England find it very hard to produce players,considering the have the highest rugby playing population in the world.

Still had Shontayne Hape,Dylan Hartely and Hendrie Fourie on the panel yesterday.

3 out of 22 being dodgy with regard to their nationality is hardly unusual in international sides. Boss isnt the only foreigner we have used and Strauss will go straight in once he is Qualified

Yes,but we only have a fraction of the playing population they do! If their underage structure was in any way decent,theyshouldnt need these foreigh players.

Riki Flutey is very close to making a combackto the team,and it wont be long before Manu Tuilagi makes his debut.

Wouldnt count out Matt Stevens making the world cup squad either

sewa

13th-February-2011, 09:05

We'd use them all if they were available to us. As for home grown talent there was 19 english players who played excellently yesterday. I doubt we will be able to say likewise at around 5 o clock

bruffian

13th-February-2011, 09:09

We'd use them all if they were available to us. As for home grown talent there was 19 english players who played excellently yesterday. I doubt we will be able to say likewise at around 5 o clock

Wll that still not really my point. My point was that the nation with the worlds biggest rugby playing population really shouldnt need foreigners...thats all

Aussiedub

13th-February-2011, 09:14

We'd use them all if they were available to us. As for home grown talent there was 19 english players who played excellently yesterday. I doubt we will be able to say likewise at around 5 o clock

Is that because they have a decent management team then or are they superior to the Irish players??

sewa

13th-February-2011, 09:31

We'd use them all if they were available to us. As for home grown talent there was 19 english players who played excellently yesterday. I doubt we will be able to say likewise at around 5 o clock

Is that because they have a decent management team then or are they superior to the Irish players?? Given a lot of our players are way past there best and they have a side full of young talent I'd say the latter

Aussiedub

13th-February-2011, 10:33

We'd use them all if they were available to us. As for home grown talent there was 19 english players who played excellently yesterday. I doubt we will be able to say likewise at around 5 o clock

Is that because they have a decent management team then or are they superior to the Irish players??

Given a lot of our players are way past there best and they have a side full of young talent I'd say the latter

I'd take Youngs, Ashton, Foden and Cole but I'd also prefer SOB, Ferris, Sexton etc though and I would expect Leinster to beat Leicster even with their English contingent

Aussiedub

13th-February-2011, 10:57

Would you swap our young guys for theirs? You bet you would

Would you swap POC/DOC/Stringer/ROG/Earls out of Munster for them?

sewa

13th-February-2011, 10:58

Would you swap our young guys for theirs? You bet you would

Would you swap POC/DOC/Stringer/ROG/Earls out of Munster for them? Yes. Wouldnt take long to decide

The Outlaw

13th-February-2011, 10:59

Id still stand behind my claim that England find it very
hard to produce players,considering the have the highest
rugby playing population in the world.

Still had Shontayne Hape,Dylan Hartely and Hendrie
Fourie on the panel yesterday.

*

3 out of 22 being dodgy with regard to their
nationality is hardly unusual in international sides. Boss isnt
the only foreigner we have used and Strauss will go
straight in once he is Qualified

Yes,but we only have a fraction of the playing population
they do! If their underage structure was in any way
decent,they*shouldnt need these foreigh players.

Riki Flutey is very close to making a comback*to the
team,and it wont be long before Manu Tuilagi makes his
debut.

Wouldnt count out Matt Stevens making the world cup
squad either

You obviously didnt watch the u20 WC last year. England
have plenty of good young players,

bruffian

13th-February-2011, 11:44

Id still stand behind my claim that England find it very
hard to produce players,considering the have the highest
rugby playing population in the world.

Still had Shontayne Hape,Dylan Hartely and Hendrie
Fourie on the panel yesterday.

3 out of 22 being dodgy with regard to their
nationality is hardly unusual in international sides. Boss isnt
the only foreigner we have used and Strauss will go
straight in once he is Qualified

Yes,but we only have a fraction of the playing population
they do! If their underage structure was in any way
decent,theyshouldnt need these foreigh players.

Riki Flutey is very close to making a combackto the
team,and it wont be long before Manu Tuilagi makes his
debut.

Wouldnt count out Matt Stevens making the world cup
squad either

You obviously didnt watch the u20 WC last year. England
have plenty of good young players,

Dont worry, the English union wll find plenty of South Africans with English grannies,and New Zealanders who never made it to the All Blacks and who've plyed premiership for a few years before most of those U.20s ever make it!

Aussiedub

13th-February-2011, 13:45

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

ADHD - any update on this smileys/lol.gif

Well maybe they can't cope with Sheridan/Cole but they can deal with Mas/Domingo

The Outlaw

13th-February-2011, 14:01

Id still stand behind my claim that England find it very
hard to produce players,considering the have the highest
rugby playing population in the world.

Still had Shontayne Hape,Dylan Hartely and Hendrie
Fourie on the panel yesterday.

*

3 out of 22 being dodgy with regard to their
nationality is hardly unusual in international sides. Boss isnt
the only foreigner we have used and Strauss will go
straight in once he is Qualified

Yes,but we only have a fraction of the playing population
they do! If their underage structure was in any way
decent,they*shouldnt need these foreigh players.

Riki Flutey is very close to making a comback*to the
team,and it wont be long before Manu Tuilagi makes his
debut.

Wouldnt count out Matt Stevens making the world cup
squad either

You obviously didnt watch the u20 WC last
year. England have plenty of good young players,

Dont worry, the English union wll find plenty of South
Africans with English grannies,and New Zealanders who
never made it to the All Blacks and who've plyed
premiership for a few years before most of those U.20s
ever make it!

wouldnt be so sure. Youngs and Lawes are the start of it.

Fredd

13th-February-2011, 16:01

Well the youth that has come through in the last year or so
seems quite good....Wouldn't mind Ashton, Lawes, Youngs,
and Cole in that Irish side. Maybe the question should be why
isn't the Munster Academy producing good quality players at
the moment.

dropkick

13th-February-2011, 22:17

The backs coach has performed miracles too for England.
Wouldn't mind swapping him for Gaffney!

I watched the match against Italy and although Italy very
very bad England didn't put a foot wrong. I'd say Ireland
made more mistakes every 5 min in the 2 games so far than
England made in 160 min against Wales and Italy

It's amazing we are back to 2003. they will walk the Grand Slam if they keep their heads.

At the end of 2009, how differn't things looked. They had terrible discipline, poor skills while we were playing tidy if unadventurous rugby &amp; were bloody hard to beat. Now the tables have totally turned? I still can't understand what has happened. It isn't as if the GP sides are dominating the HEC!!

Aussiedub

14th-February-2011, 10:01

The backs coach has performed miracles too for England.
Wouldn't mind swapping him for Gaffney!

I watched the match against Italy and although Italy very
very bad England didn't put a foot wrong. I'd say Ireland
made more mistakes every 5 min in the 2 games so far than
England made in 160 min against Wales and Italy

It's amazing we are back to 2003. they will walk the Grand Slam if they keep their heads.

At the end of 2009, how differn't things looked. They had terrible discipline, poor skills while we were playing tidy if unadventurous rugby &amp; were bloody hard to beat. Now the tables have totally turned? I still can't understand what has happened. It isn't as if the GP sides are dominating the HEC!!

They pick players who do the basics well, picka very balanced team and pick players who suit their game style

tickettout

22nd-March-2011, 21:15

This thread is so going to backfire on us come the 6Nations. We will get beaten from pillar to post

smileys/lol.gifPillar to Post

Combatlogo

22nd-March-2011, 21:38

Jordan Crane best forward in Europe!smileys/lol.gif

Aussiedub

22nd-March-2011, 22:51

I agree that the ten of them would be enough to cope withEnglands front five. Unfortunately we wont be allowed have 20 players on the pitch at once.

Ross/Casey coped quite well with the front 5 forwards in England so are you saying that Court, Varley/Flannery, POC couldn't??

Obviously POC and Flannery wouldn't be able to cope with them.

I never thought that - just wondering why Sewa thinks that we have no front 5 forwards who can compete against Sheridan, Thompson, Cole, Lawes, Shaw/Palmer etc...

ADHD - any update on this smileys/lol.gif

Any update Sewa????

fullback15

23rd-March-2011, 10:15

BreakingNews.ie« PreviousNext »

Waldrom eager for England chance
23/03/2011 - 10:03:56

Leicester’s New Zealand-born number eight Thomas Waldrom is targeting a place in England’s Rugby World Cup squad after discovering his grandmother was born in this country.

The 27-year-old joined Leicester last summer and recently spoke of his desire to play for England once he had served out the required 36 months of continued residency.

But Waldrom suddenly realised he may already be qualified after a meeting with his agent – and he woke up his mother in New Zealand to get confirmation.

Waldrom would relish the opportunity to return to New Zealand for the World Cup this September as an England player.

“In theory, I could play tomorrow if they wanted me. I don’t have to wait three years any more,” Waldrom told the Leicester Mercury.

“I would definitely take it if I got the nod for the World Cup.

“My agent came round and he brought the pamphlet with the International Rugby Board’s rules regarding qualifying after residency.

“My wife was going through the criteria. She saw the line about being able to qualify immediately if one of your grandparents was born in the respective country.

“I remembered reading somewhere that my grandmother was English. I rang up my mum in New Zealand, where it was four o’clock in the morning.

“I apologised for waking her up and asked if nana was born in England. She said yes, and that she also had the birth certificate to prove it.”

Waldrom, the former Hurricanes and Crusaders loose-forward, was overlooked by the All Blacks and would have no qualms pulling on an England jersey.

“It would be a great honour to put the shirt on,” Waldrom said.

“It would be a privilege to play against the All Blacks if the chance came along, and would be a chance for me to show them just how good I am.”

<DIV>Waldrom is a great player, he's better than any of their "English" backrows. Could easily see them start Manu Tuilagi (Samoa)and Brad Barritt (South Africa) in the World Cup. </DIV>

RobbieG

23rd-March-2011, 11:01

The young Ford fella in the U20's looked class the other night.

slipper1

23rd-March-2011, 11:05

They'll be tapping up Tommy Hayes next smileys/lol.gif

JN.Allezdax.com

23rd-March-2011, 11:57

I found the answer on the site of The Telegraph: Through Paul Ackford's column, they elected Romain Poite as... Best ref of the tournament! "Of the tournament", ok, but "best"?????!!!!!!Best or even good is an unusual term for this guy. Is it not even antinomic?..
So long England will have such hallucinations, they will be unable to produce something interresting...smileys/biggrin.gif

Tobyglen

23rd-March-2011, 12:38

BreakingNews.ie« PreviousNext
»

Waldrom eager for England chance23/03/2011 -
10:03:56

Leicester’s New Zealand-born number eight Thomas
Waldrom is targeting a place in England’s Rugby World Cup
squad after discovering his grandmother was born in this
country.

The 27-year-old joined Leicester last summer and
recently spoke of his desire to play for England once he
had served out the required 36 months of continued
residency.

But Waldrom suddenly realised he may already be
qualified after a meeting with his agent – and he woke up
his mother in New Zealand to get confirmation.

Waldrom would relish the opportunity to return to New
Zealand for the World Cup this September as an England
player.

“In theory, I could play tomorrow if they wanted me. I
don’t have to wait three years any more,” Waldrom told the
Leicester Mercury.

“I would definitely take it if I got the nod for the World
Cup.

“My agent came round and he brought the pamphlet
with the International Rugby Board’s rules regarding
qualifying after residency.

“My wife was going through the criteria. She saw the line
about being able to qualify immediately if one of your
grandparents was born in the respective country.

“I remembered reading somewhere that my
grandmother was English. I rang up my mum in New
Zealand, where it was four o’clock in the morning.

“I apologised for waking her up and asked if nana was
born in England. She said yes, and that she also had the
birth certificate to prove it.”

Waldrom, the former Hurricanes and Crusaders loose-
forward, was overlooked by the All Blacks and would have
no qualms pulling on an England jersey.

“It would be a great honour to put the shirt on,”
Waldrom said.

“It would be a privilege to play against the All Blacks if
the chance came along, and would be a chance for me to
show them just how good I am.”

IRB need to sort this s**t out, I hate it when Boss, Court
play for us. Mercenaries.

Bosco

23rd-March-2011, 12:44

So his agent was able to tell him his grandmother was
English? convenient.

Benji

23rd-March-2011, 13:04

English rugby imho is ruined because there are too many foreigners playing there. If you look at the team sheets every week and see how many English lads are starting its a joke. How many English 12' or 10's are playing in the premiership?

At least Ireland have an average of 15 Irish lads in a match 22 most weekends in Magners and Heineken.

The decision to get in so many foreigners is to compete better but longterm its not going to help English Rugby.

Im not really interested in Strauss or any other foreigner playing fore Ireland.

Tobyglen

23rd-March-2011, 13:40

English rugby imho is ruined because
there are too many foreigners playing there. If you look at
the team sheets every week and see how many English
lads are starting its a joke. How many English 12' or 10's
are playing in the premiership?

At least Ireland have an average of 15 Irish lads in a
match 22 most weekends in Magners and Heineken.

The decision to get in so many foreigners is to compete
better but longterm its not going to help English Rugby.

Im not really interested in Strauss or any other
foreigner playing fore Ireland.
Yep, no place for Strauss/Borlase/Wilkinson/Mafi smileys/wink.gif on the
Irish team, no
more of these silly pet projects. I would rather see 15 Irish
lads go out, give their all & lose than see a team laced with
Kiwi's & Saffers win a grand slam. It would mean nothing.

munsterforever

23rd-March-2011, 17:19

id be interested in strauss playing for irelandsmileys/smile.gif although to be fair best was brilliant on sat.

I think england take things a bit too far tbh. the cricket team is the same and is a joke at this stage.

i think the grandfather rule is one thing but playing people who have represented the full all blacks/samoa etc at league is a piss take. you think of players such as flutey, vainikolo and hape and think ok they qualify under the rules but in the real worls are they actually english? probably as english as eoin morgansmileys/redface.gif

i used to play league in england in the old days and loved it i had to use an assumed name as if i was caught it was no more union for me-that was a wee bit draconian but i do think its time for the IRB to clamp down on this whole area tbh.

be nice to see swandiving aisdon go back to wigan rugby leaguesmileys/lol.gif

the plastic paddy

23rd-March-2011, 18:24

Think the english are starting to wake up to the fact that they are not producing Rugby players or even cricketers. Jesus there must be something rotten at the heart of the quintessential English summer game when out of six specialist batsmen only one is english.

The english rugby team is rapidly heading the sameroute and doesnt it show in their insipid spineless performance as soon as any sort of competition presents itself. That is not to sayIreland were anything other thansuperb on saturday and IMHO that first 50/60 minutes would have even see the ABs struggle. But as my English friends are saying the England rugby team went completely AWOL. No coincidence that in that last twenty they called on real Englishmen( limited as they might be as players) to give the side some spine. Watching the game a couple more times I honestly believe there were times in that first half whenenglish playersdid not want the ball.

Hope it will serve as a reminder that the Irish rugby team will be massively mistaken if they evergo down the mercenary route. Hartley, Flutey etc etc will always be playing first and foremost for themselves.

Fortunately, in Ireland, we have the indigineous players now and coming through who will always be playing for their country.

Generally try not to be too critical on an individual basis as I did not get within lightyears of playing pro rugby and will never understand the pressures; but was part of Court's struggle on saturday that he simply couldn't tap into the same intensity that is able to unite characters as diverse as Andy Trimble and Keith Earls, Their Irish birth and breeding?

Captain Fantastic, best centre of his generation and soon to be royal.

Tobyglen

23rd-March-2011, 20:08

Captain Fantastic, best centre of his
generation and soon to be royal.
Soon to be holder of a new septum aswell.

sewa

23rd-March-2011, 20:12

Guys I've seen stuff here you wouldnt believe. Crasy, hilarious stuff but not much rugby. Unlike some here who BS all the time and shall remain nameless dont expect me to comment too much on rugby I havent seen. I am not an outlaw

The Outlaw

23rd-March-2011, 20:21

Guys I've seen stuff here you wouldnt
believe. Crasy, hilarious stuff but not much rugby. Unlike
some here who BS all the time and shall remain nameless
dont expect me to comment too much on rugby I havent
seen. I am not an outlaw

We know your not an Outlaw. You're the Cooler. Cancel that
bet
on Australia will ya so I can win a few quid.

sewa

23rd-March-2011, 20:24

Nobody invited you to this party outlaw

fullback15

2nd-June-2011, 20:26

Nolet up in sight on this policy with England anyway

The Rugby Football Union's head of elite player development insists the "Englishness" of the national team is not being compromised by the selection of overseas-born players.

Stuart Lancaster, who is also England Saxons coach and a candidate for the RFU's new performance director post, this week called Saracens lock Mouritz Botha into his squad for the Churchill Cup.

Botha, 29, qualifies on residency grounds having played for Bedford Athletic and Championship club Bedford Blues before landing a move to Saracens in 2009.

Matt Stevens, born in South Africa and capped 32 times by England, has also been included in the Saxons squad as he makes his way back to international rugby following a drugs ban.

"England want to put the best side out and I don't think there are any concerns we are losing our Englishness," said Lancaster.

"I don't think it is an active recruitment policy. If the likes of Hendre Fourie and Mouritz Botha come through the development programmes in England and put their hands up then ultimately they can be considered for selection.

"Mouritz has come in on form. He played very well for Saracens.

"When you look at his track record as a player, he has gone from Bedford Athletic seven or eight years ago and come through ultimately to play for Saracens.

"He has been in this country for a long time and played an awful lot of development rugby in England, a bit like Hendre Fourie did.

"There is no problem in that from my regard."

Leicester number eight Thomas Waldrom, who hails from Lower Hutt in Wellington, and the Tigers' Samoan-born centre Manu Tuilagi are both in consideration for places in Martin Johnson's World Cup squad.

Lancaster's current role - and future role if he is appointed performance director - is to oversee the production of English talent towards the 2015 and 2019 World Cups.

The former Leeds boss does not believe the inclusion of qualified players will have a negative effect on that.

"There are a lot of English players who are getting through and getting their opportunities," said Lancaster.

"With the likes of Graham Kitchener and Dave Attwood alongside (Botha), we have three good second rows there. We have Jamie Gibson and James Gaskell in the back row as well.

"We are going to ask some young players like Rory Clegg, Billy Twelvetrees and Henry Trinder to step up into leadership roles and we believe they are ready to do that."

England Saxons open their Churchill Cup campaign against the United States at Franklin's Gardens on Saturday.

Lancaster is confident Stevens will be fit to play, despite the Saracens prop suffering a back problem in training.

"Matt has been very influential. He is a good leader. He has been enthusiastic and positive and brought a lot of experience with him," said Lancaster.

Waterfordlad

3rd-June-2011, 06:31

No good will come of this!!smileys/razz.gif

the plastic paddy

3rd-June-2011, 07:04

Re reading comments, don't think anyone on here sees this assomething that gives England an unfair advantage. Rather it weakens English rugby and while that would suit Ireland very well it will be a disaster for rugby worldwide. I actually hope the saffers call Strauss up for RWC as it will remove the dilemna. He is a fine player but he is South African and should play for his own country and if he isn't good enough tough luck and get on with your life. Mind youwhen Fla gets back to full fitness he wouldn'tstart anyway and wonder if he will be quite so keen to sit on the bench?

tickettout

3rd-June-2011, 07:10

I suppose they will benefit from adding in very good players like Lawes, Croft and Thomas the tank for the world cup.

Some were big losses during the six nations. Lawes is geting real hype atm. He went missing in battle thoughwhen Leinster turned the screw on them unfortunately.

Still cant believe a team let a 16 point lead slip in a HEC final.

youngmunster

3rd-June-2011, 07:11

Anyway Sherry will be miles ahead of him next season! If Varley could get his darts right he would be up there also, not bad for Ireland in the Hooker position, if fit:

1.Flannery

2. Best

3. Cronin

Then Varley/Sherry with Sherry no.1 next season....

youngmunster

3rd-June-2011, 07:12

Re reading comments, don't think anyone on here sees this assomething that gives England an unfair advantage. Rather it weakens English rugby and while that would suit Ireland very well it will be a disaster for rugby worldwide. I actually hope the saffers call Strauss up for RWC as it will remove the dilemna. He is a fine player but he is South African and should play for his own country and if he isn't good enough tough luck and get on with your life. Mind youwhen Fla gets back to full fitness he wouldn'tstart anyway and wonder if he will be quite so keen to sit on the bench?
<DIV style="OVERFLOW: auto; WIDTH: 100%">

Anyway Sherry will be miles ahead of him next season! If Varley could get his darts right he would be up there also, not bad for Ireland in the Hooker position, if fit:

1.Flannery

2. Best

3. Cronin

Then Varley/Sherry with Sherry no.1 next season....</DIV>

__________________
THE BOYS OF THE YELLOW ROAD

the plastic paddy

3rd-June-2011, 07:21

Re reading comments, don't think anyone on here sees this assomething that gives England an unfair advantage. Rather it weakens English rugby and while that would suit Ireland very well it will be a disaster for rugby worldwide. I actually hope the saffers call Strauss up for RWC as it will remove the dilemna. He is a fine player but he is South African and should play for his own country and if he isn't good enough tough luck and get on with your life. Mind youwhen Fla gets back to full fitness he wouldn'tstart anyway and wonder if he will be quite so keen to sit on the bench?
<DIV style="WIDTH: 100%; OVERFLOW: auto">

Anyway Sherry will be miles ahead of him next season! If Varley could get his darts right he would be up there also, not bad for Ireland in the Hooker position, if fit:

1.Flannery

2. Best

3. Cronin

Then Varley/Sherry with Sherry no.1 next season....</DIV>

__________________
THE BOYS OF THE YELLOW ROAD Agree about Sherry.

munsterforever

3rd-June-2011, 08:59

Nolet up in sight on this policy with England anyway

The Rugby Football Union's head of elite player development insists the "Englishness" of the national team is not being compromised by the selection of overseas-born players.

Stuart Lancaster, who is also England Saxons coach and a candidate for the RFU's new performance director post, this week called Saracens lock Mouritz Botha into his squad for the Churchill Cup.

Botha, 29, qualifies on residency grounds having played for Bedford Athletic and Championship club Bedford Blues before landing a move to Saracens in 2009.

Matt Stevens, born in South Africa and capped 32 times by England, has also been included in the Saxons squad as he makes his way back to international rugby following a drugs ban.

"England want to put the best side out and I don't think there are any concerns we are losing our Englishness," said Lancaster.

"I don't think it is an active recruitment policy. If the likes of Hendre Fourie and Mouritz Botha come through the development programmes in England and put their hands up then ultimately they can be considered for selection.

"Mouritz has come in on form. He played very well for Saracens.

"When you look at his track record as a player, he has gone from Bedford Athletic seven or eight years ago and come through ultimately to play for Saracens.

"He has been in this country for a long time and played an awful lot of development rugby in England, a bit like Hendre Fourie did.

"There is no problem in that from my regard."

Leicester number eight Thomas Waldrom, who hails from Lower Hutt in Wellington, and the Tigers' Samoan-born centre Manu Tuilagi are both in consideration for places in Martin Johnson's World Cup squad.

Lancaster's current role - and future role if he is appointed performance director - is to oversee the production of English talent towards the 2015 and 2019 World Cups.

The former Leeds boss does not believe the inclusion of qualified players will have a negative effect on that.

"There are a lot of English players who are getting through and getting their opportunities," said Lancaster.

"With the likes of Graham Kitchener and Dave Attwood alongside (Botha), we have three good second rows there. We have Jamie Gibson and James Gaskell in the back row as well.

"We are going to ask some young players like Rory Clegg, Billy Twelvetrees and Henry Trinder to step up into leadership roles and we believe they are ready to do that."

England Saxons open their Churchill Cup campaign against the United States at Franklin's Gardens on Saturday.

Lancaster is confident Stevens will be fit to play, despite the Saracens prop suffering a back problem in training.

"Matt has been very influential. He is a good leader. He has been enthusiastic and positive and brought a lot of experience with him," said Lancaster.

I find this incredible. What wont they do for a win? would they pick gaddafi if he was a brilliant loose head (er.. well they tooled him up big time-does that count as being english smileys/lol.gif)... its actually both perverse and sad and doesnt even reflect the multicultural english society as most of these fellows are from the Southern Hemisphere...so they cant use that as an excuse.

But they are right in a way-do english people not support arsenal and chelsea with hardly anyone from England playing for them and with passion....its the shirt you see and the fact that the clubs or team being based in england makes them english in the eyes of the media who hype it all up as we only too well know and leicester/saints or chelsea/man u/pool in soccer actually become surrogate national teams-you can hear it in the com

Hugonaut

3rd-June-2011, 12:43

Botha, 29, qualifies on residency grounds having played for Bedford Athletic and Championship club Bedford Blues before landing a move to Saracens in 2009.

Matt Stevens</span>, born in South Africa and capped 32 times by England, has also been included in the Saxons squad as he makes his way back to international rugby following a drugs ban.

"I don't think it is an active recruitment policy. If the likes of Hendre Fourie</span> and Mouritz Botha come through the development programmes in England and put their hands up then ultimately they can be considered for selection.

"When you look at his track record as a player, he has gone from Bedford Athletic seven or eight years ago and come through ultimately to play for Saracens.</span>

"He has been in this country for a long time and played an awful lot of development rugby in England, a bit like Hendre Fourie did</span>.

Leicester number eight Thomas Waldrom</span>, who hails from Lower Hutt in Wellington, and the Tigers' Samoan-born centre Manu Tuilagi </span>are both in consideration for places in Martin Johnson's World Cup squad.

Stevens [LH/TH]

Hartley [Hooker]

Botha [2nd Row]

Fourie [Flanker]

Waldrom [No8]

Flutey [Centre]

Hape [Centre]

Tuilagi [Centre]

There's more than half a team there! Obviously Britain has a [relatively recent] colonial past and thus might have a lot of people with familial/ancestral ties to it, but it still seems a bit rich that with such huge playing numbers they're still 'forced' to give international caps to guys who aren't particularly English.

In some ways it's funny that it's Mouritz Botha provoking all the controversy this time around, because to my mind at least his case seems fairly reasonable. He's been there for years, toiling away for unfashionable clubs.

Ruck

3rd-June-2011, 13:22

What baffles me is that England seem to think that Hape is the best centre available to them. If England really aren't producing centres better than him, then they should be very, very concerned about their academy systems.

3rd-June-2011, 18:56

Botha, 29,
qualifies on residency grounds having played for Bedford
Athletic and Championship club Bedford Blues before landing
a move to Saracens in 2009.

&lt;span style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Matt Stevens&lt;/span&gt;,
born in South Africa and capped 32 times by England, has
also been included in the Saxons squad as he makes his
way back to international rugby following a drugs ban.

"I don't think it is
an active recruitment policy. If the likes of &lt;span
style="font-weight: bold;"&gt;Hendre Fourie&lt;/span&gt; and
Mouritz Botha come through the development programmes
in England and put their hands up then ultimately they can
be considered for selection.

"When you look at his
track record as a player, &lt;span style="font-style:
italic;"&gt;he has gone from Bedford Athletic seven or eight
years ago and come through ultimately to play for
Saracens.&lt;/span&gt;

&lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;"He has been in this
country for a long time and played an awful lot of
development rugby in England, a bit like Hendre Fourie
did&lt;/span&gt;.

Flutey [Centre]
Hape [Centre]
Tuilagi [Centre]
There's more than half a team there! Obviously Britain has
a [relatively recent] colonial past and thus might have a lot
of people with familial/ancestral ties to it, but it still seems
a bit rich that with such huge playing numbers they're still
'forced' to give international caps to guys who aren't
particularly English.In some ways it's funny that it's Mouritz
Botha provoking all the controversy this time around,
because to my mind at least his case seems fairly
reasonable. He's been there for years, toiling away for
unfashionable clubs.

Britain may have a colonial expansion/emigration history but
England isn't the biggest of those, us and Scots have
probably sent higher quantities.

deadlyBuzz

3rd-June-2011, 20:32

I think the main problem is that they are effectively spoiled for choice.

With almost every player in the premiership available for international selection, and their own media hyping anyone showing a bit of form up to the last, it means at the very least they should try these players out andsee if they work (Something not exactly engrained in the Irish mindset might I add)? The only problem is with many players gone by (Mr Geraghty comes to mind), after a dip in form or once the new flavour is in season, they can then no longer play for another international team.