well if you want to be technical, the ravens are an expansion franchise with the old cleveland roster, the "cleveland browns' were deactivated as a franchise, and reinstated a few years later with a new roster.

Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase well if you want to be technical, the ravens are an expansion franchise with the old cleveland roster, the "cleveland browns' were deactivated as a franchise, and reinstated a few years later with a new roster.

That's the way they want to look at it, but really they're the same as the Colts, moved, or more like the Titans, moved and changed names. Baltimore took somebody else's team, cover it up any way they like, that's basically what happened. So they really have no room to talk.

And everyone forgets the reason that they left was not to be assholes, but because the city was trying to claim the team via emminent domain He had only been shopping the team around (as owners always do) trying to get a better deal out of Baltimore, but when they tried to take over, he got mad and desperate. He left in the middle of the night kind of like you'd hide your car from the repo man.

Funny side note....there is a group of Indy fans headed to baltimore this weekend that will not be wearing Blue to support the Colts. They will be wearing green and yellow "Hogan/Mayflower" hats and T-shirts.

Baltimore didn't take anyone's team. Cleveland lost their team. Art Model wanted a new stadium for his Browns and Cleveland wouldn't give it to him so he left. Cleveland made a bad move because the Browns had a loyal fan base and they had given new facilities to the Cavs and Indians who were not pulling in the dough like the Browns were in their shitty old stadium. At least Model was straight up with the city and told them he was leaving. Colts owner, Robert Irsay, on the other hand, snuck out of town like a thief in the night.

Originally posted by MrPryck2U Baltimore didn't take anyone's team. Cleveland lost their team. Art Model wanted a new stadium for his Browns and Cleveland wouldn't give it to him so he left. Cleveland made a bad move because the Browns had a loyal fan base and they had given new facilities to the Cavs and Indians who were not pulling in the dough like the Browns were in their shitty old stadium. At least Model was straight up with the city and told them he was leaving. Colts owner, Robert Irsay, on the other hand, snuck out of town like a thief in the night.

This happened a while ago, so I don't know exactly how all the negotiations between Cleveland and Art Modell broke down. But it is perfectly reasonable for the city not to want to have to finance the construction of a new stadium all by itself, given that the football team is going to be its primary beneficiary. A football stadium costs a hell of a lot to build, more than a baseball stadium and way more than a basketball arena.

This happened during the 1995 season. Model saw Cleveland build the Cavs and the Indians new stadiums and wanted a piece of the pie, so he asked for one. They couldn't help him out to his satisfaction, so Model looked elsewhere. One city that had no problem giving Model a new stadium was Baltimore. Afterall, they knew what it was like to lose an NFL team, so they figured they'd let Cleveland have a taste of their misery. Well, the misery didn't last too long because, soon enough, Cleveland got an expansion team and miraculously were able to pay for a new stadium. The NFL realized that losing the Cleveland fanbase was a huge loss, so they did their best to get Cleveland a team ASAP. The Cleveland Browns have never won a Super Bowl. The Ravens won one five seasons after they left Cleveland.

Originally posted by MrPryck2U Baltimore didn't take anyone's team. Cleveland lost their team.

Your argument is a bit fuzzy.

You state that Baltimore would put up the money Cleveland wouldn't for a stadium. Was that private money building the stadium, or public?

If it was public money....this move is NO different than the Colts (or Rams, or Oilers/Titans, or Raiders, or Cardinals). They all had owners that ran off with their franchise to a new city after the "new" city ponied up a new stadium.

There was never any balance in the offense until McNabb went down, give Garcia the same playbook as McNabb and he goes 1-5

Reid's playcalling is always 50/50, McNabb seeks glory and always audibles to high risk passes in obvious running downs just to try and make the one big play like he had against Dallas a few years back on MNF to see himself on Sportscenter the next day and hope for a shot at an Espy, and an increase in salary from Campbell's for Chunky Sirloin Burger ads.

Garcia on the other hand tries to execute the game plan at hand and wants to win.

Originally posted by MrPryck2U . At least Model was straight up with the city and told them he was leaving.

Well....not really. Art Modell repeatedly and I mean repeatedly told the city of Cleveland, the team and most importantly the fans that he would not discuss or negotiate with the city of Cleveland on a new stadium or renovations until the season was over. However, during the season Modell flew into Baltimore to have secret meetings in planes on tarmacs with officials from the city of Baltimore and state of Maryland. He made his announcement of the move in mid-season. That's not exactly being straight up in my opinion. He might as well packed trucks and moved in the middle of the night.

The kicker (no pun intended) is that the man who orchestrated the Browns move was really Al Lerner! The man who became the "new" Cleveland Browns owner. Lerner and Modell were best of friends and Lerner provided his buddy with counsel and the planes to carry out out this plan.

I believe that Modell should have just sold the Browns and worked with the NFL on bringing an expansion team to Baltimore.

Art Modell is slime in my book. Remember, this is the brilliant man who fired Paul Brown. Enough said.

Originally posted by Hewson Reid's playcalling is always 50/50, McNabb seeks glory and always audibles to high risk passes in obvious running downs just to try and make the one big play like he had against Dallas a few years back on MNF to see himself on Sportscenter the next day and hope for a shot at an Espy, and an increase in salary from Campbell's for Chunky Sirloin Burger ads.

Garcia on the other hand tries to execute the game plan at hand and wants to win.

I really don't think we're privy to how many of those were audibles.

In fact I believe during one of the recent telecasts that Madden or some other idiot had spoken to Reid and he told them the plan was to run more with Garcia

Give Garcia a full season with the Eagles with that 60/40 pass ratio, you have a 4-12 season.

Isn't it ironic that when the Browns dressed as the Ravens moved to Baltimore, they started out playing in the same beat up old stadium the Colts had left, and one worse than the one in Cleveland they had to get away from, which wasn't that bad! They should have at least stayed put long enough to see who build a new one first. And it's totally unfair to Houston that the new expansion team didn't get to keep the name and history like Cleveland did. But the real Browns are in purple and black and living in Baltimore. The new Browns are not them. It's like if your dog dies, and you get another one just like it and give it the same name, it will never be the same dog (someone told me this, not my analogy, but it works)

Originally posted by zoney! If it was public money....this move is NO different than the Colts (or Rams, or Oilers/Titans, or Raiders, or Cardinals). They all had owners that ran off with their franchise to a new city after the "new" city ponied up a new stadium.

Oh I forgot about the Rams! There's a connection between the Rams and the Colts, very interesting.

Actually it was Carroll Rosenbloom, and not Irsay, who owned the Colts during their 'glory years' of Unitas & co. Irsay owned the Rams. In a weird deal, Irsay and Rosenbloom swapped teams in 1972. At some point, the Colts' Super Bowl V trophy mysteriously disappeared. (there is no truth to the rumor it was left on the curb as the Mayflower pulled out) The trophy was eventually replaced by the league, I think it's at their office outside Indianapolis. The original was never found. There are rumors Rosenbloom lost it in a gambling bet and one of his old enemies has it in his house.

Rosenbloom drowned in 1979 while swimming at the beach near his house. Since he was a good swimmer, and a shady gambler, it was suspected he was dragged under and rubbed out in a 'hit'. The Rams were then inherited by his widow, Georgia Frontiere- who eventually moved the team to St. Louis.