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Thursday, October 14, 2010

Because I just have to say it...

The continued sales success of the Taurus Judge and its spinoffs is the most damning condemnation of the general firearms and ballistics knowledge level of the average American shooter that I have ever seen.

While I agree that the Judge is far from the most desirable weapon in almost every way - it will give the person on the front end a world class gut ache at near point blank ranges. Exactly the ranges most home invasion shootouts take place at.

While an invader at my home will be looking at the business end of a 1911 or a 57, or given a few seconds a .723 inch diameter hole in the muzzle, most people in a home defense situation will be about as well served with a Judge as anything else. Except a 12 gauge.

Mweh. People stubbornly continue to buy Honda Elements, though the only element involved is Butt Uglium. People still stubornly buy pink pistols, and other people stubbornly continue to sell them. Engineers still buy Apple computers, and try to do serious engineering work with them. Millions of people bought the hopeychangey message of the obamessiah, and voted for him in adequate numbers to get him elected. Is it just now dawning on you that almost everyone is an idiot?

First time I saw the Judge was, I think, in an ad in American Rifleman, where there's much love for Taurus in general. My first thought on seeing it was, "That's retarded." My opinion of it hasn't changed much since then. I just don't see the point.

Kevin, rifled barrels almost all ways distort shot patterns into a doughnut shape - yes, with the hole in the middle. As one major selling point is using the .410 ammo, you can see why it sucks. The Judge, when properly evaluated, looses lots of effectiveness past 10 yards. I have seen glowing reviews that carefully keep the range to maybe 7 yards. Jeezloius! If you load it with .45 Colt ammo, it's a big unwieldy poor shooting revolver. FWIW, a S&W M&P .45 ACP will cheerfully run CCI snake shot (and be quite effective with that load), is more compact, more capacity, quicker to reload and is pretty darn accurate at about the same price point. Ditto for the Glock 21, Ruger P95, Glock 36, Glock 30, etc., etc.

I have been saying the same thing since those damn things came out. Just about every gun shop in my area has had at least one... counterperson... try to sell me one claiming that it was the best thing ever. They will even argue about it and defend it like it's something holy at times. I don't get it. Luckily, it looks like the new is wearing off and people aren't pushing them so hard as they were. Thank Gdo.

Until I read the SWAT magazine test I didn't realize you could pattern #9 birdshot at 15-feet into a 30-inch doughnut with nothing in the center, but more importantly primers backing-out (shooting out) from recoil and locking up the gun made it dangerous to own.

If it was lighter, smoothbore, and not made by Taurus, I'd actually be interested. If you live in an apartment, a smoothbore Judge-alike shooting the 4 pellet Federal load could actually be the ticket for a computerside gun, besides the fact that it's as heavy as a Model 500.

My dad's 3" 629 everything the Judge does in a much nicer package. It does a decent job on the local snake population with the CCI snakeshot loads. .44 spl ammo will run with most .45 Colt ammo. And we still have the option of loading some really nasty .44 mag ammo.

As I said on another blog, nothing will drop faster from a load of .410 birdshot than from a 250 grain slug. Be careful or you'll put somebody's eye with that.

It's too bad because I like the concept of a .45 snubbie. However, the .454 Casull Raging Judge Magnum might be good Grizzly medicine and a less expensive alternative to the S&W Mountain gun and the Ruger Redhawk Alaskan.I'll just take a Dremel and grind off the ".410 GA" from the barrel.

People stubbornly continue to buy Honda Elements, though the only element involved is Butt Uglium. People still stubornly buy pink pistols, and other people stubbornly continue to sell them. Engineers still buy Apple computers, and try to do serious engineering work with them.

I resemble that remark! As both a driver of a Honda Element (yes, they are ugly, but very practical) and an Engineer who uses a Mac (which works fine for that purpose, BTW, much better than a Windows machine)

A very loud round of applause for saying it! When I first saw a Judge, I dredged up Col. Cooper's comment on the utility of the .40 S&W, "it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist."

If you want a shotgun, get one. If you can't hit with a handgun, don't use one. If you want to kill snakes, you can get shot rounds for a .45 long Colt or a .44 RM. It is too heavy for concealed carry and too ugly to display proudly.

And, it is made by Taurus. On the plus side they've made firearms more affordable for many people. They also have excellent product support. (I just came from my local gunshop where the dealer was on the phone explaining to a Taurus owner how to ship his gun back to them for repair!)

On the downside, Taurus is cast iron, roughly finished and generally a clone of a quality piece.

All of this is simply opinion of course, but kudos for the original post. It needed saying...often!

Sorry folks, I got one and it works for what I needed. Probably have owned several hundred firearms in my life and have yet to find one that fills every requirement. Fer chrisakes, some people actually pay good money fer ugly plastic guns! BTW, mine does not pattern that way! Guess I'm just one of the uneducated masses.

I bought mine just to see what all the fuss was about. As a platform for a .45 LC it sucks; too heavy too clunky (especially the magnum versions with the 3" chamber). But as a platform for .410 meant to be fired at 5-10 yards it works. I've tried squirrelshot, birdshot and several sizes of Buck (in 00, 000, 1 and 4), while I do get some donuting from squirrel and bird shots, the buck shows not signs of it. Oh, and I ran some slugs through it; the HP magnum slugs were disapointing, but the saboted slugs were not. I'm in the process of setting up to load my own flechette rounds to see how that patterns. We'll see.

"I resemble that remark! As both a driver of a Honda Element (yes, they are ugly, but very practical) and an Engineer who uses a Mac (which works fine for that purpose, BTW, much better than a Windows machine)"

I knew there had to be one out there.

Perhaps you're using the Mac to do dynamic finite element analysis of an assembly of varied-material parts in a 3d assembly with solidworks- No, wait, Solidworks is only available for PC. Like most other serious engineering software, it's being done on a PC or a sun station or a maninframe. but wait, maybe you're doing systems analysis for multiple robotics including timestudy and servomotor efficiency and arm load... no, that software is also only available for PC. Maybe PLC programming... no, most of that software is PC only also.

You can do some spreadsheets and some simple cad on a mac, but the mature software is only available on PC or in a true UNIX system. And bootcamp means you're running a PC, not a mac.

I remember the first time I saw a S&W .500 6" and thought that gun is just stupid big, with almost no practical use.

Six months later I bought one.

For my 'less experienced' friends who are unimpressed with my collection of HK's and Sigs, the Smith .500 always seems to satisfy them. I'm not sure why. I think the Judge is sorta along the same lines.

Sold a crapload of matte SS 85UL models in the 90's...it was a pretty good imitation of a J for less than half the dough (and let's face it, S&W certainly left the door open with all their gyrations during that period); I never actually had a buyer complaint.

Of course I'm sure most of them had a couple cylinders run at the local range with the free half-hour time that I gave with each purchase, then went in the drawer or in the pants for the duration...hard to malfunction if there ain't no function to mal.

Never did figure out what that set-screw thing screwed through the hammer was though, or those weird little keylike objects...

As for the "Judge", objective judgement and cognitive reasoning are no more constants among gun buyers than any other consumer group. How else to explain anyone ever buying that marvel of practicality and quality engineering, the TEC-9?

Since when did .410 slugs become the Hammer of Thor Almighty? I thought the load of dimes in a shotshell was hooey, until I see that Federal came out with a .410 personal defense load that is what, three copper disks and a pinch of birdshot mixed together? What, if we get mugged by lawn gnomes riding rattlesnakes, we're all set?

The Judge is a clear indication that people believe that Hollywood hooey that a shotgun, ANY shotgun, is the ultimate mankilling soul-reaper death machine. Just point in the general direction of the bad guy and touch it off and the bad guy dies. Nobody aims shotguns, right?

The snub-nosed 3" Magnum chambered Judge is about the stupidest gun I've ever seen. Let's take a gun the size of a "N" frame S&W. Instead of a powerful cartridge in a small cylinder with a longer barrel, let's make the CYLINDER longer and the BARREL shorter! That's the ticket! That way you get a nice sloppy jump through the cylinder into the forcing cone for the .45 Colt.

That's about as intelligent as steel-belted-radial streets and concrete tires.

Are there decent studies or other reliable data (NOT "I owned one and it was great / a POS!" or, worse, "I know a guy who had a buddy who read an article about how great / terrible they are!") about the reliability and accuracy* of the piece? Have there been good studies (multiple examples of the gun firing many rounds of ammunition by different manufacturers) to demonstrate whether or not the gun does "donut" its shot pattern to any significant degree?

As a personal matter, I think that the concept of the Judge is pretty good: with a buckshot load, can can IN PRINCIPLE get multiple hits on a bad guy with one shot. Multiple hits = multiple chances to hit something important that will put him out of the fight PDQ. It puts the firepower of a (small) shotgun into a package that is a bit easier to use in a confined space such as a hallway or bedroom; not too much worry that the bad guy will grab the barrel as you come around a corner. If it is reasonably accurate up to about 10yds, then that it PLENTY for its intended purpose, i.e. close-range self-defense.

I recall, at various times of my life, round criticisms of the M1911 (too heavy! too much recoil! not enough capacity), the AK-47 (sloppy piece of junk! lousy sights! no accuracy!), the M-16 (poodle shooter! Mattel toy!), etc. And don't even get into the 9mm vs 45ACP controversy.

My point is that, barring solid evidence that the Judge is CLEARLY unreliable and so inaccurate that it cannot be expected to shoot "minute of goblin" at reasonable self-defense ranges, I fail to see reason for piling on.

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(*) I snicker at various reviews of firearms where the writer attempts to test the "accuracy" of the piece in question. Sometimes a machine rest is used, but usually not. USUALLY different ammunition types will be used, but not always. Typically, only one example of the gun is tested. The result: Gun X shoots a 1.231" group at umpteen yds while Gun Y shoots a 1.562" group at that range. CLEARLY, Gun Y is a POS!

Most firearms will shoot better than most shooters, and demanding sub-MOA accuracy from much of anything short of a long-range target or hunting rifle is a bit ridiculous.

DocJim, yeah - see the recent SWAT magazine evaluation and various youtube evaluations... Don't disagree with the close range being most probable, but I don't want to be limited by my hardware, otherwise I wouldn't put high visibility sights on my SD/HD firearms.

Tango Juliet, a rail and FDE is next. Thanks for giving them the idea!

On the other hand, I have had experience with shot out of a handgun that I don't care to repeat. I had a 10 inch Contender barrel with choke attached, shooting TC's .44 magnum shot loads which were made for hunting. I shot a squirrel up high in a beech tree SEVEN times before he fell, then had to put him out of his misery. I went back to a .22 rifle for squirrels after that. TC's glowing recommendations for that barrel and load were not what they were cracked up to be.