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I support the need for meaningful action to fight climate change. The suite of measures in Alberta's climate leadership plan are the strongest in Canada, and significantly stronger than BC's.

But I also support the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.

All of the other pipeline expansion projects ship Alberta's oil into the US where domestic oil production recently topped 10 million barrels per day, and where demand for our oil is likely to begin shrinking rather than expanding in the coming years.

Only the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion gets Alberta oil to Canadian tidewater for export to the US West Coast and the Asia-Pacific where oil demand is forecast to keep growing for decades to come.

If Canada can't even get a desperately needed pipeline built within our own borders, what message does this send about our country being a good place to invest and do business?

I support the need for meaningful action to fight climate change. The suite of measures in Alberta's climate leadership plan are the strongest in Canada, and significantly stronger than BC's.

But I also support the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.

All of the other pipeline expansion projects ship Alberta's oil into the US where domestic oil production recently topped 10 million barrels per day, and where demand for our oil is likely to begin shrinking rather than expanding in the coming years.

Only the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion gets Alberta oil to Canadian tidewater for export to the US West Coast and the Asia-Pacific where oil demand is forecast to keep growing for decades to come.

If Canada can't even get a desperately needed pipeline built within our own borders, what message does this send about our country being a good place to invest and do business?

The Trans Mountain pipeline expansion and meaningful action to fight climate change are not compatible with each other. The reasons for this are evident in what you said: it is impossible to reduce GHG emissions while at the same time increasing oil production for decades to come. You can't have both.

With the scrubber technology already available today emissions are a small fraction of what they once were.

This technology is continuously improving and ultimately it will be such that emissions will be eliminated entirely.

It is not far off.

Well OffWhyte has to disagree with Top_Dawg.

Scrubbers reduce SO2 emissions during upgrading, not C02 emissions (source). While this is a good thing it does very little to reduce GHG emissions.

More and more oil sands production is coming from in situ techniques rather than surface mining and in situ techniques are more intensive in terms of GHG emissions. This means unless production is limited GHG emissions will continue to rise. Here is one projection from the Council of Canadian Academies which was tasked by the Harper government to look into the environmental impact of the oil sands (original report is here).

I was blessed to be born here as a result of my grandparents coming from Ukraine before the First World War for a better life. I am so fortunate to be a product of the Alberta public school system and then university at Carleton and U of T. I have been a self-employed professional in Edmonton for the past 36 years and have had and wish to continue to have a fantastic life until I must pass.

To be lectured by people who ignore reality gets under my skin particularly when I drive by Alberta Works almost every weekday and see Albertans lined up looking for work. And not just "unemployed oilpatch workers" as if there is anything wrong with that vocation. Ordinary people trying to find work to feed themselves and their families.

I have been a card-carrying Liberal for every one of those 36 years but if the brand of "crazy" being peddled by Ottawa about business and industry continues much longer I will not be voting that way again soon and will never vote for the NDP nor the CONS.

I support the need for meaningful action to fight climate change. The suite of measures in Alberta's climate leadership plan are the strongest in Canada, and significantly stronger than BC's.

But I also support the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion.

All of the other pipeline expansion projects ship Alberta's oil into the US where domestic oil production recently topped 10 million barrels per day, and where demand for our oil is likely to begin shrinking rather than expanding in the coming years.

Only the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion gets Alberta oil to Canadian tidewater for export to the US West Coast and the Asia-Pacific where oil demand is forecast to keep growing for decades to come.

If Canada can't even get a desperately needed pipeline built within our own borders, what message does this send about our country being a good place to invest and do business?

Well said.

I agree to. The all or nothing ideologues on either side are a bit tiring. I realize there are legitimate concerns about shipping off the coast of BC, but its not the North Atlantic full of icebergs and the ships are not the Titanic. I think those fears have been overblown to suit the political agenda of some in BC who really just want to stop oil production and pipelines for other reasons.

To be lectured by people who ignore reality gets under my skin particularly when I drive by Alberta Works almost every weekday and see Albertans lined up looking for work. And not just "unemployed oilpatch workers" as if there is anything wrong with that vocation. Ordinary people trying to find work to feed themselves and their families.

You're the one ignoring reality, what with Alberta's economy being what it is & what our trajectory is forecast to be. You make it seem like we're not adding a ton of new jobs, which is untrue. There are 28,000 more fulltime jobs in Alberta now than a month ago. Our unemployment keeps dropping & is 1.7 points lower than it was a year ago. We're poised to lead the entire country in economic growth this year. But I guess your personal anecdotes about the people you pass by refutes all the numbers & statistics completely & utterly. Oh no, wait, it doesn't.

Originally Posted by The Man From YEG

I have been a card-carrying Liberal for every one of those 36 years but if the brand of "crazy" being peddled by Ottawa about business and industry continues much longer I will not be voting that way again soon and will never vote for the NDP nor the CONS.

So you'll just not vote? Take your ball & go home? Suit yourself.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

The chart from the Canadian Council of Academies study in #1004 was completed 3 years ago.

A lot has changed since then. Some changes are policy-driven. The 100 megatonne oil sands emissions cap that is part of the Climate Leadership Plan. The phase-out of coal for Alberta electricity generation which until recent years was a bigger contributor to GHG emissions than the oilsands. And yes shifting consumer behaviour by putting a tax on carbon emissions.

Other changes are technology-driven. Likely the most significant is a longer-term shift away the oil sands as an energy source (both mining and in-situ) in favour of shale oil.

Response to your lashing out in a personal attack the post prior which contained zero actual facts, just subjective personal digs. You got super ornery after I pointed out you use a logical fallacy to dismiss people who disagree with you unfairly & then made a joke regarding your inability to discern between homonyms.

Originally Posted by The Man From YEG

"Dial back the crazy...."

You literally told me to GTFO because I don't believe we should unconditionally kowtow to the petrochemical industry, which is ludicrous & illogical at best. Apologies for the turn of phrase I used regarding your nonsensical suggestion.

Originally Posted by The Man From YEG

"...pearl-clutching...."

Adjective applying to the nonsense, not to you as an individual.

Originally Posted by The Man From YEG

Look in the mirror.

Done. I'm pretty okay with how this has turned out, what with you speaking in platitudes & anecdotes that I refuted with facts, admittedly with some spin & loaded words, because your untenable position is so removed from reality.

Your turn.

Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

"an aggressive radical campaign by green extremists to rip up the Canadian economy" ... "more than a decade of gross disinformation, quasi-illegal activity and backroom political campaigns funded by Americans" ... etc

Laughable. Terence Corcoran needs to line up at the tin foil hat section of his local Walmart.

The chart from the Canadian Council of Academies study in #1004 was completed 3 years ago.

A lot has changed since then. Some changes are policy-driven. The 100 megatonne oil sands emissions cap that is part of the Climate Leadership Plan. The phase-out of coal for Alberta electricity generation which until recent years was a bigger contributor to GHG emissions than the oilsands. And yes shifting consumer behaviour by putting a tax on carbon emissions.

Other changes are technology-driven. Likely the most significant is a longer-term shift away the oil sands as an energy source (both mining and in-situ) in favour of shale oil.

I should know by now to never argue with idiots because they will beat you with their experience every time....

You should know by now to never argue on the internet using someone else's words without attributing it properly. It's just too easy to get caught.

Well YEG is not really parroting Mark Twain. Sure Twain said something similar but definitely not the same wording.

What Mark Twain said was:

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

See the difference.

By the way OffWhyte, when a guy in another thread asked you if you were from out of province you sarcastically replied 'what do you think with a name like OffWhyte'. That might not be the same terminology but it was on those lines.
Actually I thought 'OffWhyte' was referring to the colour of your undies. Never mind though, that's just me.

I haven't logged in for 2 months Admin, why don't you ******* do something about the same old trolls here?

I'm done here. Some people will be happy. Good. Take a long hard suck on my dick Noodle. Some people might miss my posts. Sorry. Too bad. Just the way it rolls I guess.

I've been on dozens of forums over the last 20 years but the personal attacks you let the same few consistent asswipes get away with in the name of "free speech" is absolute sick. There IS a point to ending it. Is this the only forum on the internet that lets users get away with personal attacks over and over again? And I'll repeat, take a long hard suck on my dick Noodle.

So anyway, nice knowing you all, it was a fun time the last 7 years or so and I learnt a lot about the city I love. I guess that's the main thing. But I cannot be a member of this **** show anymore.

Time spent in the Rockies is never deducted from the rest of your life

I should know by now to never argue with idiots because they will beat you with their experience every time....

You should know by now to never argue on the internet using someone else's words without attributing it properly. It's just too easy to get caught.

Well YEG is not really parroting Mark Twain. Sure Twain said something similar but definitely not the same wording.

I see an overwhelming similarity.

Originally Posted by Gemini

What Mark Twain said was:

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

See the difference.

That's exactly the same defense Melania Trump and her entourage claimed.

"In writing her beautiful speech, Melania's team of writers took notes on her life's inspirations, and in some instances included fragments that reflected her own thinking," (Trump senior communications adviser Jason) Miller said.

That phrase is so well known that it's part of the lexicon of anyone who falls prey to arguing with noodle and you.

Fascinating. Although a Google search of connect2edmonton.ca reveals no more than one other post using the same phrase--and in that case at least it was attributed properly to Mark Twain. I think you are not able to claim prior art here.

I haven't logged in for 2 months Admin, why don't you ******* do something about the same old trolls here?

I'm done here. Some people will be happy. Good. Take a long hard suck on my dick Noodle. Some people might miss my posts. Sorry. Too bad. Just the way it rolls I guess.

I've been on dozens of forums over the last 20 years but the personal attacks you let the same few consistent asswipes get away with in the name of "free speech" is absolute sick. There IS a point to ending it. Is this the only forum on the internet that lets users get away with personal attacks over and over again? And I'll repeat, take a long hard suck on my dick Noodle.

So anyway, nice knowing you all, it was a fun time the last 7 years or so and I learnt a lot about the city I love. I guess that's the main thing. But I cannot be a member of this **** show anymore.

Not many people I would be saying this to but it's to bad you are doing that Kitlope. I could count on one hand the number of guys on here that actually looked at things from another point of view let alone a women's point of view. Any who, best thing to do is just take no notice of the jack*sses on the forum. We are all adults and can read so we know who they are. There not really fooling anyone. Their soul purpose in life is to make people as miserable as they are. They get their jollies that way. Just read what they have to say then laugh and shake your head, put them on ignore. Give them the middle finger. You're a trillion times better than any of them that's for sure.

To be lectured by people who ignore reality gets under my skin particularly when I drive by Alberta Works almost every weekday and see Albertans lined up looking for work. And not just "unemployed oilpatch workers" as if there is anything wrong with that vocation. Ordinary people trying to find work to feed themselves and their families.

You're the one ignoring reality, what with Alberta's economy being what it is & what our trajectory is forecast to be. You make it seem like we're not adding a ton of new jobs, which is untrue. There are 28,000 more fulltime jobs in Alberta now than a month ago. Our unemployment keeps dropping & is 1.7 points lower than it was a year ago. We're poised to lead the entire country in economic growth this year. But I guess your personal anecdotes about the people you pass by refutes all the numbers & statistics completely & utterly. Oh no, wait, it doesn't.

Originally Posted by The Man From YEG

I have been a card-carrying Liberal for every one of those 36 years but if the brand of "crazy" being peddled by Ottawa about business and industry continues much longer I will not be voting that way again soon and will never vote for the NDP nor the CONS.

So you'll just not vote? Take your ball & go home? Suit yourself.

Short term numbers may not tell the story. In absolute numbers how has Alberta performed over the past few years? Plus like anecdotes, forecasted don’t put food on the table today.

I haven't logged in for 2 months Admin, why don't you ******* do something about the same old trolls here?

I'm done here. Some people will be happy. Good. Take a long hard suck on my dick Noodle. Some people might miss my posts. Sorry. Too bad. Just the way it rolls I guess.

I've been on dozens of forums over the last 20 years but the personal attacks you let the same few consistent asswipes get away with in the name of "free speech" is absolute sick. There IS a point to ending it. Is this the only forum on the internet that lets users get away with personal attacks over and over again? And I'll repeat, take a long hard suck on my dick Noodle.

So anyway, nice knowing you all, it was a fun time the last 7 years or so and I learnt a lot about the city I love. I guess that's the main thing. But I cannot be a member of this **** show anymore.

Good luck.

If you return, please cut out the very crap that you are accusing others of spewing. That is, if you want it to stop - or rather - at least not have your anonymous label attached to any of it.

It is interesting to see how free speech works - and doesn’t work- and how many people get very tired of the use of free speech by others attacking everything. Hence the calls to create safe places on universities, forums, etc.

I haven't logged in for 2 months Admin, why don't you ******* do something about the same old trolls here?

I'm done here. Some people will be happy. Good. Take a long hard suck on my dick Noodle. Some people might miss my posts. Sorry. Too bad. Just the way it rolls I guess.

I've been on dozens of forums over the last 20 years but the personal attacks you let the same few consistent asswipes get away with in the name of "free speech" is absolute sick. There IS a point to ending it. Is this the only forum on the internet that lets users get away with personal attacks over and over again? And I'll repeat, take a long hard suck on my dick Noodle.

So anyway, nice knowing you all, it was a fun time the last 7 years or so and I learnt a lot about the city I love. I guess that's the main thing. But I cannot be a member of this **** show anymore.

Good luck.

If you return, please cut out the very crap that you are accusing others of spewing. That is, if you want it to stop - or rather - at least not have your anonymous label attached to any of it.

It is interesting to see how free speech works - and doesn’t work- and how many people get very tired of the use of free speech by others attacking everything. Hence the calls to create safe places on universities, forums, etc.

Ahh, but with the proviso that the poster that I won't name (and obviously don't need to) has it as his self stated goal, which he's stated frequently, to harangue those he disagrees with until they either stop posting at all, or stop posting anything he disagrees with, then that arguably is a concern. That has not got anything to do with free speech. Its a stated and operative attempt to suppress the speech of others while engaging in non stop labeling, insults, strawman argument etc. Just that some of us are less repressible..

What I have expressed prior though is that not everybody is prepared to come here and be insulted every day of the week just for discussing something here and expressing an opinion. Most individuals wouldn't find that a pleasant or desired experience. Friction and calling out others invariably occurs but for that to be a constant behavior with some posters has certainly been raised regularly here as an issue.

Last edited by Replacement; 10-02-2018 at 10:46 AM.

"if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

There are 28,000 more fulltime jobs in Alberta now than a month ago. Our unemployment keeps dropping & is 1.7 points lower than it was a year ago. We're poised to lead the entire country in economic growth this year.

Yes, but a lot of these new jobs and economic growth is the result of a modest recovery in oil, natural gas and related industries. A recovery that is increasingly under threat unless Alberta can break its land lock and obtain improved tidewater access.

Alberta crude oil has always been priced at a discount to WTI (US) and Brent (European). But the differential is rapidly becoming a chasm with Alberta crude oil of all grades in recent months fetching only about half of the prices being obtained by US Gulf States producers.

Alberta's budget: You've heard the spin, now take a look at the real numbers - Calgary - CBC News

Excerpt:
“As you can see, our deficit works out to about 3.1 per cent of GDP — the largest among all the provinces and the federal government for the current fiscal year.

That's a hefty amount, to be sure. It's among the larger deficits Alberta has ever run. But it's not unprecedented. The 1986, 1991, 1992 and 2016 budgets involved more borrowing, as a share of the total economy at the time.”

The real economic indicators are the unemployment rates. At the moment here in the Capital region we're sitting at ~ 6.9% unemployment rate. How is that good news? And should Notley's Gov feel good abt this?

The Province is abt $9B in debt.

The only good news is that the price of wti oil is ~ $62 as of Friday. And that's something Notley's 2nd year gov can't take credit for.

The real economic indicators are the unemployment rates. At the moment here in the Capital region we're sitting at ~ 6.9% unemployment rate. How is that good news? And should Notley's Gov feel good abt this?

The Province is abt $9B in debt.

The only good news is that the price of wti oil is ~ $62 as of Friday. And that's something Notley's 2nd year gov can't take credit for.

Alberta's budget: You've heard the spin, now take a look at the real numbers - Calgary - CBC News

Excerpt:
“As you can see, our deficit works out to about 3.1 per cent of GDP — the largest among all the provinces and the federal government for the current fiscal year.

That's a hefty amount, to be sure. It's among the larger deficits Alberta has ever run. But it's not unprecedented. The 1986, 1991, 1992 and 2016 budgets involved more borrowing, as a share of the total economy at the time.”

From the article, "No Alberta government — of any stripe — has run a surplus without relying on oil and gas money in the past half-century. Remove the resource revenue and every single budget would be in a deficit position."

Some past governments such as Lougheed and Klein were fortunate enough to have billions more of oil and gas money. It is hard to make up for $10 billion less in such revenue, we would need to close a lot of schools and hospitals to do that and anyone who says otherwise is lying or a fool.

I'm as much as a Conservative as anyone here at c2e. That said if Notley didn't impose a carbon levy on Alberta, JT might not have worked with the powers that be to get the Kinder Morgan pipeline approved. Its like the Christmas Subway commercial, "Give/get." Good on JT for at least approving the Trans mountain pipeline. Good on Notley for getting behind our pipeline, bad on her for some other things. Its a trade off.

I'm as much as a Conservative as anyone here at c2e. That said if Notley didn't impose a carbon levy on Alberta, JT might not have worked with the powers that be to get the Kinder Morgan pipeline approved. Its like the Christmas Subway commercial, "Give/get." Good on JT for at least approving the Trans mountain pipeline. Good on Notley for getting behind our pipeline, bad on her for some other things. Its a trade off.

To stay in power, of course she had to get behind it. People here in this province that vote NDP, are not happy she did that! But she just went along with JT, and thats a huge failing of hers.

My mil is a pensioner, her gas bill has jumped $25.00, because of this carbon tax, she will not be voting Notley ...

I'm as much as a Conservative as anyone here at c2e. That said if Notley didn't impose a carbon levy on Alberta, JT might not have worked with the powers that be to get the Kinder Morgan pipeline approved. Its like the Christmas Subway commercial, "Give/get." Good on JT for at least approving the Trans mountain pipeline. Good on Notley for getting behind our pipeline, bad on her for some other things. Its a trade off.

To stay in power, of course she had to get behind it. People here in this province that vote NDP, are not happy she did that! But she just went along with JT, and thats a huge failing of hers.

My mil is a pensioner, her gas bill has jumped $25.00, because of this carbon tax, she will not be voting Notley ...

What’s always interesting is the emphasis given to some cost increases and not others. To bail out / subsidize Canada’s export businesses The Bank of Canada cuts interest rates, sinks the dollar by 20-cents US and causes everyone to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on higher cost goods, maybe take on debt at the lower interest rates, in order to afford the imported goods and people think nothing of it. Or corporate taxes, credits, depreciation adjustment push prices all over the place and people think nothing of their cost changes.

Or a royalty review is held and everyone freaks out saying that capital investment going off a cliff and doom and gloom is imminent. Yet for years, no, decades before oil prices fluctuate massively due to numerous factors that strip wealth out of Slberta such as federal corporate tax rate changes, exchange rate changes, regulatory changes, interest rate changes, economic cycle changes and we get silence from those that say a royalty review, and the possibility of keeping more money at home in Alberta - to circulate in Alberta - is bringing on economic disaster. Moreover the US starts hitting Canada with tariff increases, renegotiating NAFTA, etc and we get silence and acceptance.

I'm as much as a Conservative as anyone here at c2e. That said if Notley didn't impose a carbon levy on Alberta, JT might not have worked with the powers that be to get the Kinder Morgan pipeline approved. Its like the Christmas Subway commercial, "Give/get." Good on JT for at least approving the Trans mountain pipeline. Good on Notley for getting behind our pipeline, bad on her for some other things. Its a trade off.

To stay in power, of course she had to get behind it. People here in this province that vote NDP, are not happy she did that! But she just went along with JT, and thats a huge failing of hers.

My mil is a pensioner, her gas bill has jumped $25.00, because of this carbon tax, she will not be voting Notley ...

What’s always interesting is the emphasis given to some cost increases and not others. To bail out / subsidize Canada’s export businesses The Bank of Canada cuts interest rates, sinks the dollar by 20-cents US and causes everyone to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on higher cost goods, maybe take on debt at the lower interest rates, in order to afford the imported goods and people think nothing of it. Or corporate taxes, credits, depreciation adjustment push prices all over the place and people think nothing of their cost changes.

Or a royalty review is held and everyone freaks out saying that capital investment going off a cliff and doom and gloom is imminent. Yet for years, no, decades before oil prices fluctuate massively due to numerous factors that strip wealth out of Slberta such as federal corporate tax rate changes, exchange rate changes, regulatory changes, interest rate changes, economic cycle changes and we get silence from those that say a royalty review, and the possibility of keeping more money at home in Alberta - to circulate in Alberta - is bringing on economic disaster. Moreover the US starts hitting Canada with tariff increases, renegotiating NAFTA, etc and we get silence and acceptance.

I'd never vote NDP/Liberal in any scenario. I was a Jim Prentice guy. He was actually in favour of a carbon tax (its in his book) before Notley was elected.

It’s somewhat of a back door sales tax.

The Progressive Conservatives brought in a national sales tax.

For around 7 decades the feds had the MST. It was 13.5% at the end, but hidden so no one really cared about how bad and distorting it was. People only cared that the MST’s revenue replacing GST was going to be highly visible and hit goods and services - but goods which were already taxed via the MST and might even have fallen in price by the difference.

I'm as much as a Conservative as anyone here at c2e. That said if Notley didn't impose a carbon levy on Alberta, JT might not have worked with the powers that be to get the Kinder Morgan pipeline approved. Its like the Christmas Subway commercial, "Give/get." Good on JT for at least approving the Trans mountain pipeline. Good on Notley for getting behind our pipeline, bad on her for some other things. Its a trade off.

To stay in power, of course she had to get behind it. People here in this province that vote NDP, are not happy she did that! But she just went along with JT, and thats a huge failing of hers.

My mil is a pensioner, her gas bill has jumped $25.00, because of this carbon tax, she will not be voting Notley ...

What’s always interesting is the emphasis given to some cost increases and not others. To bail out / subsidize Canada’s export businesses The Bank of Canada cuts interest rates, sinks the dollar by 20-cents US and causes everyone to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on higher cost goods, maybe take on debt at the lower interest rates, in order to afford the imported goods and people think nothing of it. Or corporate taxes, credits, depreciation adjustment push prices all over the place and people think nothing of their cost changes.

Or a royalty review is held and everyone freaks out saying that capital investment going off a cliff and doom and gloom is imminent. Yet for years, no, decades before oil prices fluctuate massively due to numerous factors that strip wealth out of Slberta such as federal corporate tax rate changes, exchange rate changes, regulatory changes, interest rate changes, economic cycle changes and we get silence from those that say a royalty review, and the possibility of keeping more money at home in Alberta - to circulate in Alberta - is bringing on economic disaster. Moreover the US starts hitting Canada with tariff increases, renegotiating NAFTA, etc and we get silence and acceptance.

When you're a pensioner and as old as my MIL, then we'll talk!

We could still talk. Maybe include the idea of an inflation index dedicated towards pensioner costs.

Yes, maybe KC. Will that happen in this vote getting world, I doubt it..

COLA (cost of living adjustments) are sometimes regional. Why not demographic? The BofC, a crown corporation focused on inflation nonetheless seems to lower interest rates to lower the exchange rate and bail out the economy and to bail out private businesses, thus nailing the necessarily conservative fixed income reliant pensioners, so why not have government take responsibility for the negative effects of government market manipulation and make adjustments to benefits to groups of citizens that are negatively impacted by such quasi-government interference in the markets. Basically, my parent’s inflation rate wasn’t my inflation rate but a one-size fits all approach is often used where more targeted analyses (and baskets) should be used.