Monday, January 23, 2012

Kikoists

I am a little confused about the "Kikoists", the Neo-Catechetical Way; has the Pope approved of their rites or not, or rather are they obedient to the calls that their celebrations of the Mass are integrated into parish life or are private exclusive affairs and are they celebrated according to the liturgical books of the Church?

I know they have been given special permission to have the sign of peace before the Offertory and to have short introductions to the readings. What they do not have is permission to do is to receive the Body of Christ sitting, to use tables instead of consecrated altars, to appoint their own ministers to teach during the Liturgy.

There is a lot more that is concerning about them, their tendency to break away from the mainstream Church, to regard themselves in a sense as being some kind of "pure" Catholics and the rest of us as being in need of conversion, not so much to Christ but there own brand of the faith and the teaching of their own leaders.

To me they seem to be modern day Montanists, appointing their own ministers who have power above and beyond the heirarchy of the Church, they have their own rites and edit Catholic theology according to their own lights, they seem to have their own catechism too, not for them the Catechism of the Catholic Church but the writings of their own "prophets".

I was in a parish that had had the NeoCats, suffice it to say the fruits were not good. It was a cause of great and bitter division in the parish that lasted many years after they had left.

One of the odd things is this: in liturgical practice they were very much in to discontinuity, more "Tablet" than Orthodox, if you know what I mean. Yet they are always very keen on being seen with the Pope.

As a seminarian - thanks to seminary I 'lost' my faith but now, thankfully, have 'refound' it - I came into contact with lots of Neo Cats. They all seemed impeccably orthodox if a little intense. They have a house of formation in my diocese (Westminster, England) and if it were not for ‘The Way’ we would have far fewer ordinations each year. As priests the Neo Cats go on to celebrate the liturgy according to the proper rubrics.

Having said all this I recall being censured by the liturgical theology lecturer at my seminary – a Neo Cat – for views which now, thanks to Summorum Pontificum, are acceptable again in polite society. I was told that my views were ‘borderline heresy’. Now that I’m hearing more about the Neo Cat interpretation of the mass I have to say his remarks make sense.

The Neo Cat liturgy is strange. Full of abuses but not invalid. In my view it invents a past by claiming to be based on early Christian liturgy. Like many attempts to reify the practice of the early Church it ends up recreating history in its own image (in effect, it invents history), which is quite at odds with Newman’s notion of the development of Christian doctrine.

Lynda, the reasons are that Blessed John Paul II gave The Way enthusiastic backing. In particular, I think he was impressed by their missionary zeal (whole Neo Cat families moving into difficult areas of cities and witnessing to the Gospel through their lives). Perhaps Pope Benedict XVI sees their potential in the context of the new evangelisation. Personally I'm uncomfortable with The Way because of its impact on particular parishes and its abuse of the liturgy. And, of course, because of my particular experience (see my previous comments). Plus I can't stand tambourines! In terms of liturgy The Way is certainly closer to a hermeneutic of rupture rather than continuity but I struggle with the notion that this puts them in The Tablet camp (viz. Fr Paul Harrison). Neo Cats are certainly not very liberal in outlook.

I am sorry, but this is a rupture of continuity, as one can see. I have read up extensively on the Neo-Cats, including their supposed revamping and coming under the rule of Rome a few years ago, because they came into the area were I was living. I cannot say strongly enough that "lex orandi, lex credendi" is seen here as full-grown arrogant heresy. Who are they to rewrite liturgical history? Who are they to be appealing to some false past norm of the "early Church"? As gemofthe ocean already used the term "gnosticism", I can only repeat YES, and worse. Neo-Cats are worse. They claim the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and I doubt that.And, why can't Rome accept the SSPX in light of this acceptance albeit restricted? Does not make sense, but makes me sad. The enemies of the TLM and the Church have over-influenced this good Pope.

Fundamental truth. Jesus is preparing a place for all of us, to spend eternity in. He didn't rise from the dead to go and take His ease. He ascended into Heaven to prepare. Do these people pray their rosaries? If not, why not? Are they excluded?If so, how come? Jesus Himself still has work to do. Preparation means work.

Women on the altar saying Mass, handing out Holy Communion, Lectoring the faithful, becoming Associate Pastors and such paved the way for this satanic ritual.

It is another replacement for the Mass of all time; the Devil has proven he just needs a toe in the door to infiltrate everything.

Dioceses around the world will claim this as a Mass, no matter what the original intent. That's how Satan works.

Thank God the Holy Mother forced the Pope to declare the Mass of all times had never been abrogated.

To a great extent the level of any civilization is the level of its womanhood. When a man loves a woman, he has to become worthy of her. The higher her virtue, the more her character, the more devoted she is to truth, justice, goodness, the more a man has to aspire to be worthy of her. The history of civilization could actually be written in terms of the level of its women.”

-- Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

The higher her virtue: there is no virtue in disobedient women that manhandle the Blessed Sacrament and perform Priestly functions.

This is a punishment to us for Priests not keeping women in their place.

As always, you have hit the nail on the head. SSPX was a reaction against the trend of the times but is utterly orthodox in both belief and liturgical practice. The same cannot be said of the neo-cats. Anathema sint.

@Pablo-"Women on the altar saying Mass, handing out Holy Communion, Lectoring the faithful, becoming Associate Pastors and such paved the way for this satanic ritual."

Are you back on that 'it's the wymmin' GEEZ, get OVER yourself. Much as I dislike this neo-Cat business there are no "wimmin on the altar saying MAss." Neither with the neo-Cats OR the Novus Ordo, which you very openly despise. [And can you please look up the difference between 'altar' and 'sanctuary?' You don't seem to know the difference. NO ONE 'stands on the altar.']

As to why the Holy Father isn't on his knees to the SSPX it's their insistence that he is in the wrong. Maybe if the SSPX threw out its heroes like Bishop Williamson and stopped blaming everything on 'the Joooos' and some of them stopped claiming the pope is a tool of a Satanic Masonic cult, he might give them the time of day. As it is, right now, they don't deserve it.

Several very good priests have acccepted Neo Cat groups and work with them. My problem is why do they insist on weird and wondeful rites at all ? If their purpose is evangelisinjg, they dont need allthat junk. Another prohblem I know is that they conhsider that it takes about 20 years to become a real Catholic at least for themselves !

You have said what so many have been thinking and observing about "Kikoists". Seemingly good bishops like Cardinal George Pell and others have given them land and helped them build exclusivist seminaries. If they are the face of the new Evangelistaion then much of what critics say about the Catholic Church in our age is right. This little cult is set for a collision with the Church. Nothing of what they say or do is new. It is part of the liturgical abuse and neo Lutheranism we have been exposed to for 40 years. Like the pied piper Kiko leads them all with his 1970's guitar music. If fact they are VERY 1970's!

"My problem is why do they insist on weird and wondeful rites at all ?"

Ego.

Sorrowful mysteries. Gethsemane. Your Will, not mine, be done, we all have to truly pray and truly mean that prayer, at some point in our life. Ultimately, it's about trust. Trust in a person. A person who is your God. Jesus Christ. Profound reality. Constantly, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

Dear Lord. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of your Mercy.

To try and pour healing oils on Gem and Pablo's discussion, let's remember, we are all on the same team and also, if I might quote our Saviour, Jesus Christ: " In My Father's house, there are many mansions"

Why?

Go on, take a guess.......Ego,Will.

Anyway, it's His universe, His eternity, even though the scientists are trying to understand it and then, claim it.

Hahahahhahaahahahaaha!!!!

Look what Our Lord has said in scripture:

"In my Father's house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you."

Our Lord's words. Words we can trust. Let's begin, as Roman Catholic bloggers, to love each other, with our faults. We, then, become a witness to truth.

The whole NC thing seems to be almost built on non-integration from the start. They have a different liturgy, they have a different catechesis and they are organised into different communities. As one NC member that I met told me (and he was a nice guy that I liked) 'why go back to a parish when I have everything I want here?'.

Another thing I find curious is why did it take so long for the catechetical directory to be approved? I don't think the Vatican will ever quash rumours about errors in it until they publish the original as opposed to the revised and approved text. If there are significant errors in it doesn't that mean there are about 30 years worth of NC's out there who need to be re-catechised?

On the plus side though the NC's I've met I've liked and they seem very committed. I've never met any of the NC priests who didn't know what they were talking about and they have all been totally orthodox. So there is a paradox/contradiction here that I don't understand. The lay ones I've met seem as badly catechised as anyone else so again there's a contradiction here as after 10 years (and I've met ones who've gone the whole way) they still don't seem to know much. It all seems to be about doing and experiential catechesis and we know where that has got us in the post-VII world.

"It will be found again and again, in ecclesiastical history, that the new departure, the daring innovation, the progressive party, depended directly on the Pope. It was naturally more or less negatively resisted by the bishops, the canons, the clergy in possession under political and patriotic settlements. Official oligarchies of that sort generally do resist reform and experiment, either rightly or wrongly. But whenever there appeared, in Catholic history, a new and promising experiment, bolder or broader or more enlightened than existing routine, that movement always came to be identified with the Papacy; because the Papacy alone upheld it against the resisting social medium which it rent asunder."That's Chesterton.

Fr BlakeAs a member of a NC community based in South London I find some of things mentioned in your post problematic. We do not have any other type of catechism and do not refer to the writings of our "prophets" rather than Church documents or the writings of the Fathers of the Church. As with many movements and orders throughout Church history we have had teething problems which the Church (in her wisdom) has dealt with fairly and patiently. We have been supported by Popes (going back to Paul VI) bishops and parish priests, including in this country. I grew up being taught to love the Church and her teachings and be faithful to the Gospel. Throughout the various "stages" we do we are learn about the riches the Faith has to offer, including doing the Divine Office everyday. My parish priest has found it a great way of evangelising those who are far away from the Church, in serious moral crises, or who are lapsed Catholics. Many young men and women from the NC have gone on to seminaries or monasteries around the world, their vocations being fostered in their individual communities. That crucial post confirmation to "the kids need to get into the local RC school" age (16-35)so often missing in Churches is well represented in the movement and we usually make up a large portion of the young people at World Youth Days. The missionary character of the Church is also stressed. Though the NC may not be everyone's cup of tea, it has shown itself to be an orthodox and faithful movement that is now widely accepted in the Church throughout the world.

This general distrust of the Neocats, when the Church clearly places so much trust in them, is unwarranted. The Holy Father and a great many bishops/ cardinals in full and affective communion with the Pope have a great admiration and respect for them. They are counting on them for the evangelization of many dechristianized areas of the world, including and perhaps particularly the UK and once Christian Europe. We are talking about the salvation of souls:people brought back to Christ after wandering far away, and others being introduced to their Saviour and catechized in his teaching. The fruits are clear to see for those with an unjaundiced eye. Bishops, the bishop of Rome, priests and laity in multitudes see in them an enormous force for good, and thank God for the gift of the NeoCats. I love Gregorian chant , polyphony , beautiful liturgy, liturgical discipline etc who doesn't? But in a week devoted to Christian Unity should we Catholics not make a real effort to open our minds and hearts a little, to unite with the principle of unity, the Holy Father and the Magisterium and recognise, praise and thank God for the Neocats?

Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna

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