Editorial, June28, 2013by RFMariano
An analysis of an endorsing statement made by newcomer Admin, ColdAs1c3 who has, all of a sudden, become "Joe Authority" in the Administrator Community.

(Be mindful at the same time that many experienced Admins, including myself, are eager to help the newcomers.)
One can only wonder just who, if anyone, is coaching him....

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAs1c3

I don't understand why there is such confusion.

In regards to this proposal:

The current process of users designing maps and having to cook maps would not change.

Server Admins would be able to host any custom map they want (just as before)

Map makers and users can use the SWS or ignore it (Their choice)

Server admins can choose to use a redirect server, or ignore it (Their choice)

The map makers can update their maps as many times as they want.

SWS is so hopelessly broken and its goofy 200mb filesize limit contributes to its failure. This is an exercise in both redundancy and bureaucratic layering to give somebody a title and power over the Mappers, Admins and their server content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAs1c3

So what is the proposal for?

The sad fact is, many users don't have the patience or are misinformed about custom content. The hard graft and hours put into custom maps, it's a god damn shame they are not being played more!

Nonsense!! Users get the custom maps in no time flat - and at no challenge to those with Speed and Bandwidth caps. They get the maps from responsible, knowledgeable and experienced Admins. Sure, there are youthful newcomer admins making noises but they soon fall by the wayside once school begins again.

Knowledgeable, experienced Dedicated Server Admins provide excellent ReDirects, resources and help for the users. No "official approval" by another layer of bureaucratic garbage is necessary or needed..

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAs1c3

There are custom maps out there that have the balance, polish and map design that deserve to be made an official map. This proposal would open an avenue for map makers to submit their map to TWI, if successful the map would become an "OFFICIAL MAP" The map maker wouldn't need to worry about having to constantly recook the map after an update.

All this would be handled by TWI, exactly the same as Winterwald, Rakowice etc.

ColdAs1c3 fails to mention that IF TWI does not recode the SDK and its routines, then TWI will be forced to re-cook each and every custom map in existence (2-3 hours each). I do not see that "pie in the sky" coming to pass.

There are over 20 custom maps in existence at this time. Is TWI ready to provide the time, manpower and expenses to manage, fix and cook these maps with every update released? I think NOT.

Additionally, with all this added hoop jumping can we honestly expect all the mappers to endure this added bureaucracy? Again, I think NOT.

Further, the management of the Mapping Contest has been and is seen as a sad event with the users having lost the services of a number of mappers as a result. Do we need further bureaucratic interference in custom mapping and modding? NO!!

Is this another step in taking control of mapping and modding that will eventually lead to the elimination of mapping and modding as we have seen on other platforms? IE., Activision and Electronic Arts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAs1c3

The evidence is out there for all to see, the winners of the last map competition that got their map added to the official rotation have thankfully seen these maps become accepted and more frequently played.

Indeed the evidence is out there for all to see... We got 4 maps!! FOUR MAPS!! Out of how many we used to have? Where are the rest of the contest winning maps? Held up for what reason?

Meanwhile, we know many of the maps we all enjoyed for months are GONE!! Gone until somebody gets off their dead ass and releases the next batch of contest winners. This folks, is exactly one of the reasons why I am against this Bureaucratic Boondoggle of a suggestion!

Having another Bureaucratic layer of control freaks managing anything is a pending disaster. Just look at the bias and hate in the discussion in progress HERE. Do you really want these attitudes judging and releasing maps at their discretion? I don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAs1c3

Admins and the player base alike, don't need to go hunting for new versions after an update from TWI.

ColdAs1c3, if it is so inconvenient for you to look in the TWI forums regularly for new map releases - then you are certainly NOT suitable to be a Server Admin. Its part of your responsibilities to your users. Same as maintaining the Redirect Files, uploading the files to your Redirect and again to your Server(s), testing the map and ensuring the users will obtain them smoothly and efficiently.

If you can't stand the heat - get outta the kitchen!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAs1c3

How is this anything but a positive proposal for the whole community?

When common sense and past experiences come into play, this proposal becomes a nightmare - a Bureaucratic Boondoggle of a suggestion!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAs1c3

Mike, you have mentioned that you are dubious about those left in charge of approving these maps.

I am curious, do you feel those that have judged the recent map contests are biased towards certain members of the community?

In answer to the questions ColdAs1c3 asks.....

About those left in Charge;
This very thread HERE with the undercurrents of animosity by the respondents alone verifies the existence of BIAS. Any casual reader will sense the existence of an undercurrent of resentful if not hateful bias.

About the Map Contest Judging;
The answer is a simple YES! That answer is based upon comments made to me by a number of well respected and well known, knowledgeable and experienced mappers. High quality mappers who have since left the platform in utter disgust.

This proposal, so energetically supported by
ColdAs1c3, is absolutely brain dead as offered.

*************

This is the same Admin who until recently hadn't a clue about Servers, ReDirects and Server management.

Now, all of a sudden, he's poster boy for the "control freaks";
About his experiences and potential motivations;

From a few days ago - To Wit:

Quote:

Sent Originally by ColdAs1c3

Are you around? Needed to ask a favor.

Thanks,

CAI

My Reply;

Quote:

Sent Originally by Mike_Nomad
Ask....

CAI's reply;

Quote:

Sent Originally by ColdAs1c3
Panic over, I was going to ask if I donated a few $, if I could use your re-direct server for a day. My host cut me off for bandwidth usage being maxed out, despite me only hosting 1 map at the time.

They have responded to my support ticket and upgraded my bandwidth to a respectable 300GB up from 30GB.

Thanks for replying.

I have also added Odessa and Myshkovariver, would be nice to see them get some population.

I respectfully submit his MAIN and perhaps only reason for supporting the effort is to avoid the need for a Server Redirect.

As usual, what is initially presented by people is not always the truthful and intentional reason for people's actions and statements..

I respectfully submit ColdAs1c3's motives are possibly selfish and self-serving. He apparently wishes to avoid the expense and work involved in maintaining a quality redirect. Its apparent this Admin has been beguiled by a few power mongers and has been misled into believing their line of tripe.

ColdAs1c3, do you really know of what you speak out of years of experience or just by what you have been told?

ColdAs1c3 might be "Cold as Ice" suffering from Frostbite!

Look at EA's Frostbite- a bunch of control freaks... ("No maps/mods; Users are too stupid to use our editor" - Frostbite, 2010) hmm, I wonder.

Dear hearts and gentle people, we are at the precipice of a slippery slope. One of which we've seen before. Think very carefully about giving control over your server's content to another Bureaucratic Boondoggle. We all saw what happened with Activision and Electronic Arts.

The sad part is these youthful newcomers have NO EXPERIENCE and have never seen the great custom maps that were made for MoH, CoD, Battlefield and other great games before we were lulled into seeing the mapping and modding slowly but surely taken control of and then, eventually eliminated.

Be careful of what you wish for....

I honestly believe ColdAs1c3 has either been misled/used or misunderstood the entire situation.

I quite honestly don't know where to start in answering this in places, personal attack on my motivations for adding my "opinion" to the TWI forums.

Very strange you decided to place this attack on your own forums rather than responding to the original thread.

With that out the way, I will try my best to answer the points you raise, without resorting to name calling.

[QUOTE=Mike Nomad;98079]
An analysis of an endorsing statement made by newcomer Admin, ColdAs1c3 who has, all of a sudden, become "Joe Authority" in the Administrator Community. [quote]

Never once claimed to be an authority on anything, you are not understanding the original post by Thor. I wanted to make it very clear what the proposal is suggesting and also emphasizing custom maps as they are now, would still be available to everyone .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

One can only wonder just who, if anyone, is coaching him....

I think for myself and quite honestly not sure what you are insinuating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

SWS is so hopelessly broken and its goofy 200mb filesize limit contributes to its failure. This is an exercise in both redundancy and bureaucratic layering to give somebody a title and power over the Mappers, Admins and their server content.
[/I][/COLOR][/INDENT]

Nonsense!! Users get the custom maps in no time flat - and at no challenge to those with Speed and Bandwidth caps. They get the maps from responsible, knowledgeable and experienced Admins. Sure, there are youthful newcomer admins making noises but they soon fall by the wayside once school begins again.

There is no disagreement from be in regards to SWS. In its current form for RO2, it is not fit for purpose. My understanding is SWS works very well in other games and has seen an increase in user made content being created. As for your comment about redirect servers working with no problems. 100% agree with you again. Redirect servers work just as well. I have stated this very fact when I made my own topic regarding custom maps on the TWI forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

Knowledgeable, experienced Dedicated Server Admins provide excellent ReDirects, resources and help for the users. No "official approval" by another layer of

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

bureaucratic garbage is necessary or needed..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

ColdAs1c3 fails to mention that IF TWI does not recode the SDK and its routines, then TWI will be forced to re-cook each and every custom map in existence (2-3 hours each). I do not see that "pie in the sky" coming to pass.

There are over 20 custom maps in existence at this time. Is TWI ready to provide the time, manpower and expenses to manage, fix and cook these maps with every update released? I think NOT.

This so called bureacratic layer of garbage as you put it, would have zero effect on the current way maps are created and cooked. This bureacratic layer would also have no effect on your abilty to host maps on your server and to enable a redirect server. Do you understand this?

If 20 maps got submitted for approval and all 20 got knocked back from TWI. There would be 100% nothing different from how things work at the moment. The maps would all be available for use on any server that wishes to host them, while they were going through the bureacratic process...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

Additionally, with all this added hoop jumping can we honestly expect all the mappers to endure this added

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

bureaucracy? Again, I think NOT.

What hoop jumping? If a map maker would like his/her map considered for a full release into the game, then they submit the map to TWI. Otherwise things continue to run as normal with any Admin hosting the custom map and every player welcome to download and play the map if they choose to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

Further, the management of the Mapping Contest has been and is seen as a sad event with the users having lost the services of a number of mappers as a result. Do we need further

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

bureaucratic interference in custom mapping and modding? NO!!

Is this another step in taking control of mapping and modding that will eventually lead to the elimination of mapping and modding as we have seen on other platforms? IE., Activision and Electronic Arts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

Indeed the evidence is out there for all to see... We got 4 maps!! FOUR MAPS!! Out of how many we used to have? Where are the rest of the contest winning maps? Held up for what reason?

Meanwhile, we know many of the maps we all enjoyed for months are GONE!! Gone until somebody gets off their dead ass and releases the next batch of contest winners. This folks, is exactly one of the reasons why I am against this Bureaucratic Boondoggle of a suggestion!

Having another Bureaucratic layer of control freaks managing anything is a pending disaster. Just look at the bias and hate in the discussion in progress HERE. Do you really want these attitudes judging and releasing maps at their discretion? I don't.

This is the reason I asked you if you felt there was biased views being held during the last contest. I was no aware of the history of this process and from your posts it sounded like there was history of foul play during the last contests.

I will read this forum page you have linked me. Are you able to explain why the maps sent as contest entrants are not able to play for the time being on a server hosting custom maps? If the answer is in the forum post you have just linked then there is no need to answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

ColdAs1c3, if it is so inconvenient for you to look in the TWI forums regularly for new map releases - then you are certainly NOT suitable to be a Server Admin. Its part of your responsibilities to your users. Same as maintaining the Redirect Files, uploading the files to your Redirect and again to your Server(s), testing the map and ensuring the users will obtain them smoothly and efficiently.

If you can't stand the heat - get outta the kitchen!

No it is not inconvenient for me at all. I am quite capable of checking the forums for any updates to the maps. Sometimes there is no post after a patch is released and I don't have a 2nd server to 100% test all maps. The server is self funded and I also have a full time job. I do what I can where ever possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

[/I]About the Map Contest Judging;
The answer is a simple YES! That answer is based upon comments made to me by a number of well respected and well known, knowledgeable and experienced mappers. High quality mappers who have since left the platform in utter disgust.[/COLOR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

[COLOR=White][B][CENTER][I]This proposal, so energetically supported by
ColdAs1c3, is absolutely brain dead as offered.

No need for the personal attack here, I asked you about evidence of biased. All you had to do was link to the forum thread and I can read it myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Nomad

This is the same Admin who until recently hadn't a clue about Servers, ReDirects and Server management.

Now, all of a sudden, he's poster boy for the "control freaks";
About his experiences and potential motivations;

From a few days ago - To Wit:

My Reply;

CAI's reply;

I respectfully submit his MAIN and perhaps only reason for supporting the effort is to avoid the need for a Server Redirect.

As usual, what is initially presented by people is not always the truthful and intentional reason for people's actions and statements..

I respectfully submit ColdAs1c3's motives are possibly selfish and self-serving. He apparently wishes to avoid the expense and work involved in maintaining a quality redirect. Its apparent this Admin has been beguiled by a few power mongers and has been misled into believing their line of tripe.

ColdAs1c3, do you really know of what you speak out of years of experience or just by what you have been told?

ColdAs1c3 might be "Cold as Ice" suffering from Frostbite!

Look at EA's Frostbite- a bunch of control freaks... ("No maps/mods; Users are too stupid to use our editor" - Frostbite, 2010) hmm, I wonder.

[I] Dear hearts and gentle people, we are at the precipice of a slippery slope. One of which we've seen before. Think very carefully about giving control over your server's content to another Bureaucratic Boondoggle. We all saw what happened with Activision and Electronic Arts.

The sad part is these youthful newcomers have NO EXPERIENCE and have never seen the great custom maps that were made for MoH, CoD, Battlefield and other great games before we were lulled into seeing the mapping and modding slowly but surely taken control of and then, eventually eliminated.

Be careful of what you wish for....

I do have a clue about server management, I ran a very successful CS 1.6 clan for many years. I also help manage our dedicated server which is used for Arma 2 & 3, including MySQL, php, phpbb and Arma 2 server tools.

Yes some of the Red Orchestra 2 server setup was new to me. I shouldn't have to apologies or be embarrassed that I had to seek out some documentation as we don't all know everything...

You suggest I wanted a free ride for a redirect server. Get your facts right, I asked if I donated some money towards the cost of your redirect if I could use it for 1 day! This was a Sunday when I realised my host had cut my redirect server down for using to much bandwidth. We were supposed to be on a much higher bandwidth limit but were cut off after 30GB use.

I didn't want to remove the custom maps unless 100% necessary and as it was a Sunday, I didn't think my host would get back to me until the Monday. Thankfully it was all sorted and I didn't need to use your redirect server after all. I was nothing but polite and asked the question. Again mocking me for this is really uncalled for.

I would love to host custom maps 24/7 but the sad fact is with the glut of public server available, there is so much choice that our server is flatlining. We don't have the massive community of players to help get our sever going.

I have been trying to build a small community but haven't been 100% successful. Although we do have 15-20 regulars, they are not available to play every day.

----- SNIP ------
You suggest I wanted a free ride for a redirect server. Get your facts right, I asked if I donated some money towards the cost of your redirect if I could use it for 1 day! This was a Sunday when I realised my host had cut my redirect server down for using to much bandwidth. We were supposed to be on a much higher bandwidth limit but were cut off after 30GB use.

I never suggested that you wanted a free ride. Had that been the case, then why in heaven's name would I have presented your statement of offering a donation? Come on man, stick to the facts at hand - lose the diversions and distractions.

About personal attacks... another sympathy seeking diversion. None are evident. There are however, attacks on the topic, thoughts and endorsements. For good reason and that's because that proposal is deadly, political and self-serving for those apponted with the authority over the mappers, servers and server content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAsIce

I didn't want to remove the custom maps unless 100% necessary and as it was a Sunday, I didn't think my host would get back to me until the Monday. Thankfully it was all sorted and I didn't need to use your redirect server after all. I was nothing but polite and asked the question. Again mocking me for this is really uncalled for.

Mocking?? Oh, are we feeling sorry for ourselves? I merely presented the facts and offered my impressions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAsIce

I would love to host custom maps 24/7 but the sad fact is with the glut of public server available, there is so much choice that our server is flatlining. We don't have the massive community of players to help get our sever going.

What the hell do custom maps have to do numbers of public servers? Please think this concept through.

The truth is; could your lack of players be due to the fact the RO2/RS lost 4,000 players in just 14 days?

Could it also be due to the fact that any new user who joins the TWI forums in hopes of enjoying a community like environment finds mostly controversy, elitist BS and of course, the ever present know-it-alls posting walls of text talking down to everyone.

Not to mention the sarcastic asshats yapping off in every forum.. Sorry, its lousy experiences people are being subjected to that's one of the causes of the user/players losses.

Another cause is the lack of proper documentation both for the players and the Server Administrators - its all a haphazard mess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAsIce

I have been trying to build a small community but haven't been 100% successful. Although we do have 15-20 regulars, they are not available to play every day.

Welcome to the real world of Server Administration. I believe we all have the same set of oars.

You asked why I didn't post my Editorial in that thread on TWI's forum...

TWO Reasons;

My Editorials are for RGN's Editorial Forum where truthful opinions and viewpoints can be presented without fear of inexplicable reprisal or deletion.

TWI's Official Company forums should be Administered by Non-partial Admins and Moderators. Currently, that is not the case. They are politically involved in everything. Pushing their agendas forward with complete and total disregard to the wants and wishes of the users.

There you have it.... I have no agenda except to fight for the rights of the users, myself included.

Do the right thing and look to TWI...

Suggesting they get the rest of the mapping contest winners out the door is paramount...

TWI should be advising their Forum staff to butt out and stop trying to push their personal agendas on the forum participants.

Finally, TWI should be encouraging the Admins, such as yourself, to use the ReDirect Server provided by TWI specifically to help defray the costs and hassle for those that need the help. Instead TWI has gone MUM about that too.

If you feel hurt... I'm sorry but sometimes, the truth hurts.

I say it like it is, some people are still wrapped up in the Politically Correct nonsense. That to me, is nothing more than encouraging people to BS themselves and censor others. Speak your mind - tell the truth. In the end, it can only help the cause.

This is the same Admin who until recently hadn't a clue about Servers, ReDirects and Server management.

Now, all of a sudden, he's poster boy for the "control freaks";

About his experiences and potential motivations;

I respectfully submit his MAIN and perhaps only reason for supporting the effort is to avoid the need for a Server Redirect.

I count them as personal and quite simply spewing rubbish.

You talk about biased admins, politics and motivations.

I quite honestly have no clue what you are talking about. I am leaving my personal opinion on an open forum on a game I very much enjoy.

I think map makers would see a massive increase in those using their maps if they were made official. Pretty much common sense right there.

There is nothing special about running a rediret server. I was let down by my host but it was quickly sorted. Perhaps I was naive thinking someone in the community would help me out instead of using it as fuel to take the piss out of me at a later date.

Tripwire should update their public redirect of course but I have no problem running my own in the mean time.

Yes the population of players playing RO2 has plummeted in the last 2 weeks, which won't help me with a pretty much empty server. However you underestimate just how powerful it is having a community created from the original Red Orchestra.

I am not stupid, it takes time, money and admins that don't abuse their position to build a successful community. I doesn't happen over night.

I quite honestly have no clue what you are talking about. I am leaving my personal opinion on an open forum on a game I very much enjoy.

Count them as you wish.... If you can repro ONE absolute personal attack, I'll apologize for it as it would mark an oversight on my part. I never, in serious debate, attack a debater personally. I'll attack the hell out of the opines offered but not the person.

You having no clue about the politics of the TWI forums is a given, since you are new. Yet you find the need to offer opinions and conclusions without the benefit of all the facts and history behind the facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAsIce

I think map makers would see a massive increase in those using their maps if they were made official. Pretty much common sense right there.

Really, How many original RO custom maps have you offered in your RO Servers, DH Servers through the years? How many months have you had the RO2/RS server up and running? On what do you base your conclusions. A guess, an estimate, you certainly do not posses either the experience nor facts to come to any these conclusions knowledgeably in regard to TWI, RO/RO2/RS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAsIce

There is nothing special about running a rediret server. I was let down by my host but it was quickly sorted. Perhaps I was naive thinking someone in the community would help me out instead of using it as fuel to take the piss out of me at a later date.

Still feeling sorry for yourself... pffft. Facts are facts and truth is truth.

If running a successful ReDirect is so simple then why are so many of the ReDirect servers failures? Maybe because of a combination of budgetary constraints and ignorance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAsIce

Tripwire should update their public redirect of course but I have no problem running my own in the mean time.

If you have no problem then why all the "I know what's best for us" BS? Don't try to force your beliefs upon me and others. They're flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAsIce

Yes the population of players playing RO2 has plummeted in the last 2 weeks, which won't help me with a pretty much empty server. However you underestimate just how powerful it is having a community created from the original Red Orchestra.

There you go again proffering all this veritable high end BS calling it knowledge... I under estimate NOTHING. Try "Been there and Done that" instead. Sport, I have forgotten what you are just learning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdAsIce

I am not stupid, it takes time, money and admins that don't abuse their position to build a successful community. I doesn't happen over night.

Nobody said you are stupid except yourself in denial. It takes all kinds of quality from the Developers, the Maps, the Game, the Admins and lastly and most importantly the users. Without them none of any of this offers any value. Anything overnight is not worth the effort.

Before you offer your implied truths and passages of wisdom, I'd, if I were you, consider gaining the knowledge and wisdom necessary before trying to play that card. Many of the RO/RO2/RS Admins have been doing so for years with many programs and editors.. Trying to blow smoke at them just won't work.

Be a stand up guy and try to understand the entire situation. There's much more to this BS proposal than meets the eye.

Look at EA's Frostbite- a bunch of control freaks... ("No maps/mods; Users are too stupid to use our editor" - Frostbite, 2010) hmm, I wonder.

Quote:

Dear hearts and gentle people, we are at the precipice of a slippery slope. One of which we've seen before. Think very carefully about giving control over your server's content to another Bureaucratic Boondoggle. We all saw what happened with Activision and Electronic Arts.

There is a reason why Activision and EA lost my business, they nickle and dime their customers out of an additional sixty or so dollars. Their whole stance on modding is so they can do such BS to gamers and I for one can do without them... not like they've had anything good come out in ages.

Exactly.... If this goof-ball proposal is ever put in place, it sends TWI a loud and clear message that the users are OK with another layer of control over the content for their servers.

That, in turn, is the beginning of the end. The beginning was the institution of TWI's whitelisting process that was the start. Whitelisting was rammed down our throats by TWI as a surprise add-on to RO2.

The Whitelisting system is similar to Government Permitting. As such, it is susceptible to untold abuses. You are, in essence, issuing a permit for a mutator or server to run under TWI controlled conditions. Using that permitting to favorably leverage TWI's policies and politics rather than issue a permit for the benefit of users is wrong.

There was no Whitelisting with RO and we never, ever saw any Mutator abuse. One must ask why the Whitelisting? Its serves no real purpose except to harass and offer the control freaks at TWI an opportunity to exercise a modicum of power over the modders.

If the users clamoring for this BS proposal do not wise up, we will see within two years, TWI begin their journey of greed into the realm of total control over content ala EA & ACTV. These jerk users that always seek the "easy way" will soon learn its the wrong path to take and sends the wrong message to TWI.

Well IF TWI did QB custom maps, perhaps we could get proper loading screens, or at least the map's name...

Player1 "Hey, the server is loading a custom map! Any idea what it is?"

..map loads

Player1 via chat "hey what map is this?"

Player1 ditches server whenever a custom map begins to load.

Twrecks, all TWI need do is provide the necessary tools for the mappers to create and provide the loading screens. We have no trouble with the custom maps otherwise. Our players get the maps from our redirect and play them.

Jump in our server or forums and ask them. All these opines and yet the users themselves are not being queried.

Why this big campaign by certain server admins to get this added layer of useless bureaucracy put in place?

A few reasons;

shabby redirect servers

added cost to server admins they are seeking to eliminate

certain admins clamoring for added prestige and titles

When are the real and genuine problems going to be focused upon and steps taken to correct them?

Twrecks, all TWI need do is provide the necessary tools for the mappers to create and provide the loading screens. We have no trouble with the custom maps otherwise. Our players get the maps from our redirect and play them.

Jump in our server or forums and ask them. All these opines and yet the users themselves are not being queried.

Why this big campaign by certain server admins to get this added layer of useless bureaucracy put in place?

A few reasons;

shabby redirect servers

added cost to server admins they are seeking to eliminate

certain admins clamoring for added prestige and titles

When are the real and genuine problems going to be focused upon and steps taken to correct them?

For example;

eliminating Re-Cooking with every program update

fixing a flakey game browser

fixing WebAdmin

in-game rubber banding

map optimization

releasing the remainder of the Map Contest Winners

adding fresh content maps, vehicles, etc..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamefurr Dispray

This is what this proposal is trying to do, get more content out there to the majority of users.

This proposal DOES NOT affect a servers ability to run ANY custom map of their choosing.

What added cost exactly? It doesn't cost servers anything at all to have more maps ingame.

Every server would get the same maps approved by the QB, there is no titles or prestige. If anything, the servers running custom maps now like to boast.

Your questions alone prove you know nothing of what you speak. Also I see how you conveniently leave out most of what you reply to. (psst; High Quality Redirect Servers are NOT FREE neither are Servers for the game.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7-CLOWN-7

We as server admins try our best at keeping our server fully updated, working, and adding new content when available but if these servers are not being used they simply go to waste. Pick our server, Mikes server, and the others that are constantly keeping them up to the day (updated), sorry forget who all the server admins are that posted here.

Well spoken. I might add, those of us that provide high quality, well maintained RO2/RS Servers and ReDirect Servers get the job done without SWS or any other senseless, useless bureaucratic layers of nonsense.

End of story.

Side Note:

The Hypocrisy in the ZOO. Certain forum "pros" claim its insulting to call Japanese Soldiers "JAPS" and/or "NIPS".

But they say nothing about this user, "Shamefurr Dispray" who mocks the Japanese accent with his nickname. IMHO, this clown is a sarcastic, disrespectful wiseguy and dolt. That critique is not, (for those so inclined to accuse), a personal attack - its an accurate and critical observation.

At least Japs and Nips were Wartime slang terms that are no longer in use.

Welppers, Butch Cassidy..... A MODERATOR in the ZOO... Jumped me slinging insults and bait... Its a power grab - plain and simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad

Who makes the decision on what maps get approved?

Why fix what isn't broken? Everyone of you acknowledge that the ReDirect Works and the good Servers have the customs in play.

How many remember how great Winterwald USED to be?

Too many cooks....

Different versions of the same map - will result.

This is his "professionally enlightened and polite" reply to the above post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

TWI or even other mappers themselves, maybe a few of contest winners.

Really, who and how many do the choosing?

Quote:

How many more times must you be told that this proposal has nothing to do with running redirects or even custom maps on a server.
It has everything to do with allowing mappers to release their work into an official patch that will allow all players to enjoy their work.

Don't get snotty with me, its unbecoming of you... The quality servers with fast working redirects are what this is all about. After all, they already allow mappers to release their work into the community thus allowing all players wanting to play custom maps to enjoy their work. Or, hadn't you noticed in your bellicose pursuit of power?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

No people don't because before the map pack release only a small minority of people had played it but now its part of the game its a very popular map.

That is plainly a fallacy. Patently untrue - A figment of someone's imagination. The piss poor and highly intrusive SWS performance, inexperienced admins, poor GSP's and garbage redirects have done more to cause users to shy away because of all the lousy experiences they've suffered. That is the TRUTH!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

No redirect, no sws, patched into the game, see how it works?

You left one other result out.... Play what WE want you to play and play the map the way we want you to play it. After all, the person(s) deciding which maps get "released" do so with dictatorial powers.

The way it is now, we play the maps as the mappers DESIGNED them to play NOT as some pompous bureaucrat(s) decide it should play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

Have you actually read any of the posts?
A set QA standard would be published a mapper then has the "CHOICE to submit a map or continue to keep it as a custom map.
So a mapper has a choice, something you appear to want to deny them.
Under your "don't fix what ain't broke" attitude mappers will have no choice at all.
How does that benefit their work or allow the whole community to appreciate it?
Under this proposal they can submit their work to a group of their own peers with a view to it making an official stock custom map.

There you go again, getting snotty, actually, you KNOW I am reading each and every word..... Truth be known again..."DON'T FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKEN!" & "TOO MANY COOKS SPOIL THE SOUP!!" Are quite appropriate here. Of course I already said that and you chose to talk down to me and mock my words. That's all good as it proves you have no factual, concrete fail-safe answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

Not if a map is patched to become stock. Yet another benefit of this proposal.

And then we see the users confronted with those servers choosing not to run the "modified" or should I say, "modifried" maps. Thus the advent of numerous versions of a map in circulation.

Whatever butch...... whatever.... When will we all know the real reasons for all this hullabaloo over this senseless and useless layer of bureaucracy. Apparently, EGO and POWER over the MAPPERS & ADMINS and especially SERVER CONTENT are the obnoxiously obvious reasons cloaked in smoke and mirrors about "everything will be wonderful". Its really nothing but a control freak scheme.

You have no idea how many users, of those who are left, (6500 down to less than 1800 avg. in less than four weeks) see right through this BS. This nonsensical effort is a telltale sign of futile thinking in the face of a failing platform. You of all people, like myself and a few others here, have seen this before at least twice. Trouble is, I do not have a short memory.

@ All
We WILL wind up with multiple versions of maps. There is no talking around that FACT.

Constant meddling in the creation of maps is courting disaster. Just look at what happened with Winterwald.... when it was first released everyone loved it. It was a challenge, an exciting challenge. EVERYONE Loved it!! ...Now, its a bore. (truth)

I say "HANDS OFF!!" What we have now works and works damn well!

Custom Maps Qualification Board My Ass!! CONTROL FREAK HEAVEN is more like it!

Here we see Ducky... make a feeble attempt at butting in... another TWI Moderator pushing his weight around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_Nomad
Quote:
Originally Posted by =GG= Mr MoeSorry, not going to rage against you because you are mostly right.

People will stop to switch servers or turn off the game. These are all things that take up about as much time to do as downloading a map via redirect if you think about it. For the majority of people, that really is pathetic :rolleyes:

Moe, its because they've had their brains kicked in by that awful Steam Workshop implementation we've all been hit with.

Those Servers with a high quality ReDirect send the maps to the users fast, reliable and working properly. The system works well.

Its sad that the users have to wade through a bunch of crummy rule-infested servers with lousy redirects or no redirect at all. SWS (Steam Workshop) as implemented for RO2/RS is a total failure. Then to add insult to injury, the 200mb file-size limit is a joke as far as our maps are concerned.

I do not blame the users... They have to wade through too much garbage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducky

Glad to see that you acknowledge that the current system isn't perfect

I have said that for months and months its nothing new. SWS is garbage and some servers are junk. You made no point that hasn't been indicated before.

All the QB amounts to is another layer of useless bureaucratic control. It serves no real and genuine purpose except to allow CONTROL over the MAPS, MAPPERS, SERVERS and ADMINS!No Thank you!!

I have said that for months and months its nothing new. SWS is garbage and some servers are junk. You made no point that hasn't been indicated before.

All the QB amounts to is another layer of useless bureaucratic control. It serves no real and genuine purpose except to allow CONTROL over the MAPS, MAPPERS, SERVERS and ADMINS!No Thank you!!

"DON'T FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKEN!" & "TOO MANY COOKS SPOIL THE SOUP!!"

I say; "HANDS OFF!!" What we have now works and works well!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducky

And that is why Thor come up with this suggestion/proposal/idea. To make it easier for all. It might work for you, but for some it's still too complicated. Redirects can do fine, but for large maps it can still run up to 5 to 10 minutes download time if the server is on an other continent.

Maybe for some poorly run servers/redirects. I have yet to get *ANY * complaints from our European/Asian/South American/Caribbean users about the speed and reliability of our ReDirect. Sorry that reasoning doesn't wash as far as I am concerned. Nice try...... no cigar.

There are quite a few high quality servers using first class ReDirect Servers just as RGN does... Truly with the dropping user counts and only 6 maps for RS and small fraction of the maps we used to have for RO2, I say let the wheat separate from the chaffe. The lousy servers will soon disappear and the Quality Servers will shine through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducky

At that point players will look elsewhere. The players now days want to play a match from the start of the match and not step in after the first couple of caps are already captured. We can't change that attitude, but we can at least try to prevent that they have to wait that long.

Oh, this QB push is for Matches? Nice - now the bottom lines begin to show through. There ain't enough players left for "Matches".

We play "games on maps" in RS and RO2. Our players (from all over the world) enjoy our servers and redirects because they are hassle free and reliable. Again, many other servers are too but the garbage servers will soon disappear... As they always do.

All the QB amounts to is another layer of useless bureaucratic control. It serves no real and genuine purpose except to allow CONTROL over the MAPS, MAPPERS, SERVERS and ADMINS!No Thank you!!

1. Will TWI expend the man power to do this custom map to official map routine. Also if the map(s) has to be recooked will they do it.

2. Lets take 4 maps, ie RO2, those 4 new maps came in around 1 gig in size. Now who is going to pay for it. See item 3

3. I know that Valve out of their kindness of their heart will NOT just give away bandwidth. Someone has to pay for it. Item 2, 4 new maps in RO2 came in around 1 gig. Now shove that to each and every person that had RO2 installed. That patch was mighty huge to say the least.

Now add to the custom maps you also have the game itself. It too can get rather large download.

Will TWI expend the man power and money to do this. Or should it be left alone and let the server admins handle it. There are a few other server(s) admin(s) out there including us RGN that does what is needed to run custom maps. i see no real purpose in this CQ or whatever it is called. Again who is going to pay to have all this done.

Another thing to consider, this is NOT 2003 where map sizes were around 20 to 50 meg. This is 2013 and map sizes has increased with the new FPS games. For us RO2/RS the map sizes can exceed 200 meg and that is just for 1 map.

4. The steam SWS allows <200 meg file sizes. Will Valve increase that, dont think so because Valve has not budged on this size issue.

5. SWS implementation in RO2 and now RS is broken. It is not coded correctly and/or implemented.

If TWI can get SWS working correctly then the SWS can be used but it needs to be fixed and the file size MUST be increased to atleast 400 meg.

Barring everything the only other viable thing is that the custom maps must be incorp'd into the game. See the points above to see what TWI has to over come. Oh lets not forget the time on this, will the new custom maps be delayed and if so then how long. 4 weeks, 8 weeks just how long will we have to wait for new maps and will those new maps need to be recooked at every game patch. if so then this is a dead issue and to be frank I do not see TWI taking on this project.

Sounds good on paper but in reality it all depends on TWI and if they will expend the man power ( paid employees ) and the money to Valve to serve said content. Can get mighty expensive.

NOTE: Looking at our redirect stats we have served over 5 Terabytes since February this year. Yes that is with a mighty big T. You are looking at some mighty big bills to pay for TWI to get all these custom maps out to the masses. Yes it will be a one time thing at that time but will all these maps need to be re-served at game patch time, ie, recooked.

One more thing I need to add. Of all the custom maps out there for RO2 and now RS how many do we have that is actually official type.

4

This is really sad since there are numerious awsome custom maps avail for us all to use.

And what ever came about the second round of the mapping contest. Been real damn quiet and again, for all these past months since the contest, only 4 maps have been made official.

I just wanted to point this out as food for thought. Oh yea, now who is going to be on the mapping boards, who will make the determination on what maps makes the cut. How will this board be governed and how will it come to present.

Will ALL in the community have a fair shake or say. By what I see of the TWI forums I really don't think so.

Only an independantly owned/run site that mappers can supply source files to, and provide for free to users/servers cooked versions, would have any chance of achieving the goals of a QB.

I was a moderator/mapper/reviewer at Beyondunreal's Nalicity, one of Unreal's top mapping/modding centers on the internet. The SWS should have been the same answer for RO2, we all know how that worked out.

Beyondunreal.com provided Terabytes of downloads of custom content, including Community Map Packs and Mods, for many incantations of Unreal. If any one site contributed more to the success of Unreal and attracting new talent it was Beyondunreal and its review site Nalicity.

Again, a site that provides reviews and downloads for RO2/RS maps maybe the best vehicle for building a better community, free from TWI and Steam.

Only an independantly owned/run site that mappers can supply source files to, and provide for free to users/servers cooked versions, would have any chance of achieving the goals of a QB.

I was a moderator/mapper/reviewer at Beyondunreal's Nalicity, one of Unreal's top mapping/modding centers on the internet. The SWS should have been the same answer for RO2, we all know how that worked out.

Beyondunreal.com provided Terabytes of downloads of custom content, including Community Map Packs and Mods, for many incantations of Unreal. If any one site contributed more to the success of Unreal and attracting new talent it was Beyondunreal and its review site Nalicity.

Again, a site that provides reviews and downloads for RO2/RS maps maybe the best vehicle for building a better community, free from TWI and Steam.

<- man I love that tank!

Welcome!! Its good to "see" you.

I agree...... But wait..... we've been doing just that all along.

Please bear in mind, we've provided Terabytes of maps already via our ReDirect and plenty of mapper support both in space here and in testing...

QB is a good idea in principle but in reality, it leaves a great deal to be desired. Especially with the opportunities it offers for abuse.

1- TERABYTES thats with a big arse T were served during your stay at beyoundunreal. It will be the same for TWI to serve all these custom maps. Valve aint going to give that bandwidth away for free. Someone has to pay for it. When we got 4 additional maps for RO2 the map pack weighed in at 1 gig or just under. Now add to that the actual game itself and its content. Seems to be a pretty big download per player.

Also do the custom maps or even the stock maps have to be recooked at every patch?. I do not know but if it does then WOW that will be one big arse patch.

2- TIME, will TWI have the time, man power to accomplish this, I do not think so.

Thanks for the welcome Mike, kinda had to come here as the thread on the TWI forums was "closured". (EDIT, was unlockered, A-mazing)

@Wizz, yes recooking is a big issue. More maps have been lost because of it then are currently in circulation.

No offense, RGN does provide a place to test custom maps, hosts them, provides a most excellent redirect, but only supports them 95%.

Mappers and modders desire feedback and ppl to play their creations, that is why Beyondunreal's nalicity was so popular. Fortunately Unreal maps NEVER needed recooking. Only shared content between custom maps had to be managed by the mappers.

Only a trusted site that mappers/modders can hand over their source files to keep the map/mod alive (recooked) after they depart , and do everything RGN does now and what the SWS was supposed to do will be 100%.

Maps nowday have 100x bigger file sizes, so maybe a site that just reviews & recooks (updates SWS?) can be that final 5% solution. TWI isn't going to do it, niether did Epic. Only an independant entity will ever have a chance, unfortunately, the community is small and the reward be even less.

Only a trusted site that mappers/modders can hand over their source files to keep the map/mod alive (recooked) after they depart , and do everything RGN does now and what the SWS was supposed to do will be 100%.

Maps nowday have 100x bigger file sizes, so maybe a site that just reviews & recooks (updates SWS?) can be that final 5% solution. TWI isn't going to do it, niether did Epic. Only an independant entity will ever have a chance, unfortunately, the community is small and the reward be even less.

Thanks for letting me rant

No problem T. As for the missing 5%... all the mappers have to do is ASK.

Moe said it all in that thread at the ZOO - eloquently and to the point and.... I might add, without offending anyone;

Quote:

Originally Posted by =GG= Mr Moe

I've said this before, in several places. The whole idea on paper sounds wonderful (like saying we all want World Peace so it will naturally just happen because we want it) but like all Utopian ideas it doesn't and won't work out that way.

First, two things that have been mentioned are manpower and time of which TWI has very little to spare. Witness TWI getting their own content out, vehicles (where are they), working on RS and KF, doing the map contest maps (we still don't have the second batch yet). I'm not knocking TWI on this, they are obviously busy and what they are currently doing takes time.

Then you have the qualification aspect of it and map ownership. Does this give ownership of the maps to TWI? Will the maps just have to be presentable and not crash the game or will TWI want to tweak balance and alter gameplay (CS cough cough we think it is too hard for the Germans to cap rail yard objective A :rolleyes: ). Some mappers may welcome that, others not so much. I can say as a player, I don't, I would hate to see a map dumbed down for a bunch of casual players. I know I'm not alone on that, and can probably think of a few mappers who would agree with me.

At best, I see this proposal working but with long time delays, more than mappers and players will expect, and probably a few issues with the QB board. I personally don't see the best case scenario happening though and those that do I think are being overly optimistic.

Mr. Answer Man Butch Cassidy, the TWI Moderator, continues to push HIS Agenda at the ZOO with this response to Moe... so much for unbiased moderating in an Official Forum.

One Burning Question; What's in it for you Butch? Your ambitious display is disgusting.... lighten up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by =GG= Mr Moe

I've said this before, in several places. The whole idea on paper sounds wonderful (like saying we all want World Peace so it will naturally just happen because we want it) but like all Utopian ideas it doesn't and won't work out that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

I don't believe it to be utopian or impossible but it will be difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by =GG= Mr Moe

First, two things that have been mentioned are manpower and time of which TWI has very little to spare. Witness TWI getting their own content out, vehicles (where are they), working on RS and KF, doing the map contest maps (we still don't have the second batch yet). I'm not knocking TWI on this, they are obviously busy and what they are currently doing takes time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

Absolutely agree that TWI would be hard pressed to run this which is why a Quality Board was suggested made up of community members who would essentially remove the burden of testing and basic quality control from TWI.
This would ideally need to be community members with testing experience and mapping or SDK knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by =GG= Mr Moe

Then you have the qualification aspect of it and map ownership. Does this give ownership of the maps to TWI? Will the maps just have to be presentable and not crash the game or will TWI want to tweak balance and alter gameplay (CS cough cough we think it is too hard for the Germans to cap rail yard objective A :rolleyes: ). Some mappers may welcome that, others not so much. I can say as a player, I don't, I would hate to see a map dumbed down for a bunch of casual players. I know I'm not alone on that, and can probably think of a few mappers who would agree with me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

I would imagaine that any community map submitted and accepted would have to be given over to TWI eventually.
As with every community map that has been released into both RO & RO2 via an official game patch.
I think testing is where both the mapper and the QB testers would find out what works and what does not.
I personally believe that map design should always be the designers choice and testing is where that designer finds out what parts of the design does or does not work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by =GG= Mr Moe

At best, I see this proposal working but with long time delays, more than mappers and players will expect, and probably a few issues with the QB board. I personally don't see the best case scenario happening though and those that do I think are being overly optimistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButchCassidy

I think you have some valid points Mo and I don't believe anyone can argue with the time and manpower issues.
In essence the QB board would need to be setup by TWI with people who could commit their time to the testing process over a long period and of course mappers would need to put time and effort into maps in order to get to the desired standard.
But I also believe we already have some maps in the community that are very close to the release standard set by TWI.
It really is a case of turning the obvious desire of many in the community to get more community content into the actual game into a realistic and viable resource for TWI to use.
Not easy but not impossible...

One must really consider just what is Cassidy's true motivation.... For the good of the users, or the Good of Butch Cassidy and "his" TWB Servers?

Does Butch want total control over every server's content? Perhaps. The independent server owners/Admins must preserve their rights to offer the maps, mutators and mods they and their users choose, not what some goofy QB jazz dictates. I do not trust the motivation at hand - not since the big screw over dealings involving an exploit checker. Too much backstabbing.

This entire concept of a

Qualification Board & Forced Download

reeks of a trip to Control Freak Heaven attempting to take control over the entire Custom Map scene for RO2/RS.

A USELESS BUREAUCRATIC LAYER of PURE POWER-PLAY BULLSHIT.

Enough already! When do these people stop with aggressive take over attempts via the constant pursuit of some sort of DICTATORSHIP over what we do and use in all our servers?

Point A - A fact all the yapping Penelopes are apparently or purposefully overlooking; They say "you can run any map you wish" to that I counter; What about when we wish to run a map that's not been "monkeyed with" by the Qualification Board? Will that immediately force multiple versions of the same map to be stored on user's machines? Or will punitive measures, like unranking, be imposed on those Servers electing to not participate in this scheme. Better start asking some hard core questions my friends.

Point B - Mappers had better look past the trip down primrose lane with the flowery, (happy happy - joy joy), presentations and endorsements by the ill-informed. Make it your business to research all the possible pitfalls and angles. Seek ALL the answers relative to what this proposal really will do and where it will take all of us.

Hate me if you will, but I say err on the side of caution and table this bullshit before it bites all of us in the ass.

0 player count.... Yesterday, we mentioned the severe player count drop and now, last night and today, it shows 0 count. We must've hit a nerve!! That proves they can screw around with the browser's output!

Now I see why the ping discrepancies and Server listing Anomalies occur.

Edit: as of 11:20am today, 07/03/2013, the player count was restored, the ping display and server list are once again, working as designed. How long it lasts is another matter.

I think we can safely say no QB system with TWI direct or indirect involvement will ever exist. The best we could hope for is if you (Mike) petition mappers that are nolonger active for their unpublished versions, and someone, like me, recook them when needed. Then post links for the cooked versions (client/server) here in your RO2 mapping forum under the appropriate thread of course.

Off topic semi-related, the ranked/unranked server list will also perpetuate. It clearly serves TWI to keep hack mods from insta-leveling players, like we saw in BF/COD. I know leveling is a sore subject, but it is what TWI wishes to promote supposed player longevity (keep ppl coming back/stay to level-up).

FYI, I am prot0typ1cal in game. Sry about spawn killing you in Odessa the other night, I really had no idea I was doing it. Peace.

I think we can safely say no QB system with TWI direct or indirect involvement will ever exist. The best we could hope for is if you (Mike) petition mappers that are nolonger active for their unpublished versions, and someone, like me, recook them when needed. Then post links for the cooked versions (client/server) here in your RO2 mapping forum under the appropriate thread of course.

Good ideas. I'll look into them. Its would be a good thing to get the maps re-cooked and released for all to enjoy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twrecks

Off topic semi-related, the ranked/unranked server list will also perpetuate. It clearly serves TWI to keep hack mods from insta-leveling players, like we saw in BF/COD. I know leveling is a sore subject, but it is what TWI wishes to promote supposed player longevity (keep ppl coming back/stay to level-up).

I never had a problem wit the leveling system. The Negative Nancys and Classic "only" purists made all the noises. I enjoy seeing guys level up and get a kick out of it. Hell, I get a smile when I do too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twrecks

FYI, I am prot0typ1cal in game. Sry about spawn killing you in Odessa the other night, I really had no idea I was doing it. Peace.

No problem. The moment mention was made it ceased. Can't ask for better than that.