Now obviously, we can't just change our immigration policy overnight and expect everything to be ok. There would have to be other changes to go along with allowing open immigration. Mainly, everyone would have to be legally documented and tax-paying to preserve balance in the system. We would need to make English the official language to simplify government and education issues, but not outlaw other languages from being used. We would still have a grace-period before immigrants became citizens, and we would need to be strict about allowing that to happen. If these people broke the law they should be deported, etc.

Overall, there is no moral or ethical reason to keep someone from coming to our country legally unless it can be shown that they are an enemy of our people. The current system we have only encourages illegal immigration, especailly from Mexico, of otherwise law-abiding and hard working people. I have respect for the majority of Mexican immigrants and I would have absolutely no problem with them if they were here legally and paying taxes like everyone else.

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You have just given every justification for illegals. They are cheap and they have a good work ethic. So do Canadians but they need a green card. Please tell me that you are not in a business that employs Mexican immigrants, legal or not.

Open immigration legalizes everybody and provides businesses with all the legal low cost labor they could dream of. It's an employers dream. Tom, tell us more about your dreams for a NEW WORLD ORDER ... Adam Smith Redux. lol

"Way down deep I'm very superficial" - ALEA IACTA EST - "What we do in life echoes in eternity."

Your assumptions are wrong OW. If they are legal immigrants, they are no more low cost than anyone else who wants to get a job. They can use their skills, whatever they may be, to get a legal job and pay taxes.

That just the ultimate capitalists' dream rolling around in your mind Tom. Wages are based to a large degree on supply and demand, right? If you open the border and allow everyone who isn't a criminal into this country, you'll depress wages considerably --- and yet depressed wages in this country will always be better than the wages in a majority of countries in the world, so the incentive for non-american citizens will always be there for a great majority of the world population. What you're invoking is the free movement of capital and labor --- Adam Smith 101.

"Way down deep I'm very superficial" - ALEA IACTA EST - "What we do in life echoes in eternity."

Read the article that I linked. You're making the false assumption that wages would go down because of more available labor. You're forgetting that demand on all sorts of products and services would go up. It would all balance out in the end.

Assuming the ARTICLE is right in all its propositions. You ASSUME the article is right, I certainly don't. Last time I checked, the ISIL didn't strike me as an organization without a bias. lol The end result of an open immigration policy in this country and at this time is depressed wages and a comparative overpopulation (500 million as opposed to 300 million+). This isn't the 1840's, the 1880's, the 1900's, etc. times when open immigration was required for growth. Comparable numbers of immigration today, adjusted as a % of the population would wreak havoc on our economy --- not to mention the potential for social and cultural upheaval.

"Way down deep I'm very superficial" - ALEA IACTA EST - "What we do in life echoes in eternity."

Perhaps you missed the congressional hearings where they determined that wages have been depressed and have been declining for some time, except of course for the CEO's who now make up to 600x that of the average wage earner. That giant sucking sound you hear? All the manufacturing and technology jobs being sent overseas, leaving wage earners that could provide a decent living for the family, now forced to work for lower wages, and compete for that job with an illegal worker.

that depressed wages would not or do not exist now due to illegal immigration. And you are dead wrong. Perhaps you would like to work in a trade field for example that PAID $16.00 per hour a few years ago but now due to the influx of illegals that will only pay you $9.00, MAYBE. Happens every day in America, Tom.

Well, RB, that raises an interesting question. Who got the $7 difference? It wasn't passed on to consumers of goods and services. Construction costs are UP. And there you have it, tomutley. Business owners LOVE the idea of hiring lower-waged workers because the difference goes into THEIR pockets. I ASSUME that's true because (a) profits are up in many areas and (b) the middle class is shrinking. Even stockholders aren't seeing multiple seven dollarses because CEO compensation is also UP.

As I stated in the other blog (regarding SC "immigrant" population), in economic terms, an "open border" policy would be suicidal for America. Over 40% of Mexico's 106 million people earn less than $2.00 a day. With the US min wage at apx. $41.00 - $54.00 a day, Mexicans would pour over our border by the millions within months.

There was a study released today (I think it was conducted by Northeastern Univ) about the huge rise in our countries unemployment rate for "low wage" / unskilled American workers due to illegal immigrants. The highest unemployment figures to date, and the Americans most effected by illegal immigrants? -African Americans.
The study also spoke about how it (illegals) has effected the "trade" business' in America. Mexicans aren't just coming here to pick lettuce & tomatoes anymore folks......they are taking decent paying jobs in the trades. Jobs that were once done by Americans (and done BETTER, if I say so myself).

Tom: See if you can get ahold of any books written by Dr. Robert Pastor. He is the vice chair of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) Task Force on North America. He calls for "erasing the US borders with Mexico and Canada and merging the 3 nations into what he calls the North American Community. What Pastor and the CFR seek is "economic integration of the United States, Mexico, and Canada. He says (he actually admits this) that he wants the US taxpayer to "make the Mexican economy grow at a faster pace than that of the United States."
But the Pastor plan is about more than money. For generations, U.S. and foreign elites have sought to deminish American sovereignty and delute our national identity. What is GOOD about the CFR plan is that those out to abolish America are now out of the closet. -This is actually where NAFTA was designed to lead us (towards a "World Union")

Since Mexico's per capita GDP of $5000 is a fraction of America's (more than $40,000), and the gap between the US and Mexico is the largest between any two large neighbors on earth, US wealth transfers to Mexico City would have to be enormous and ongoing. Mexico's politicians would be awash in US foreign aid forever. -This is what President Fox of Mexico is hoping for (he supports the Pastor / CFR plan). -He doesn't have the will or the ability to boost Mexico's economy....so he wants the American taxpayer to do it for him. Even as it sits today, the Billions (that's with a "B") of American dollars being sent to Mexico every year by illegals (which is billions taken out of OUR economy) is the second largest income going to their country. -Second only to their oil revenue.

"The march of Latin America to the United States shouldn't be understood as a wave of anger or revolutionary passion, but more of a peaceful conquest."
-Fr. Florencio Rigoni Mexican Bishops Conference.

It seems you all have a real problem distinguishing between current events and the hypothetical situation which I have talked about.

Of course the current system is messed up, I am the first person to say that. Illegal immigrants are hurting Americans. Being able to pay someone $4 an hour illegally hurts everyone in this country. Aside from that, being able to pay a carpenter $10 under the table rather than having to pay a legit carpenter $20 on the books is HURTING Americans. I am NOT supporting this.

I'm supporting opening up legal immigration. Getting everyone above the table, on the books. Some argue that this would destroy our economy, but that is bad economics. The influx of workers would also bring an influx of tax revenue and an influx of consumers. The end result would be a stronger economy.

Tom, you just can't see the forest for the trees ... or you don't want to. Even if illegals were legal, they would still be willing to work for less, especially when wages in Mexico are absurdly low. The supply of laborers in this country would really outstrip demand ... this is really about owners paying less and controlling more. We can't absorb the unemployment in Mexico (adjusted for the number of mexican citizens that work here illegally), let alone the unemployment in Canada (6.5% in august, 2006). Every US job provided to a non-american is potentially an unemployed American --- employers feed off of unemployment to depress wages.

"Way down deep I'm very superficial" - ALEA IACTA EST - "What we do in life echoes in eternity."

OW: You're exactly right. Every immigrant coming to America would do the same job that Americans are doing, but offer to do it for less (even "on the books"). That equals higher unemployment for AMERICANS, and I'm sorry Tom, but that would be BAD for our economy.
More "workers" doesn't automatically equate to "more jobs" being developed. -It means there will be less AMERICANS working. The people that will be working will be doing so at a lower wage.....which will mean less tax revenue to the treasury.
Then, when you consider the fact the the new "workers" aren't trained nearly as well as most American's (especially in the Trades), that means we would be getting less value for our dollar. I've worked in the trades for many years, and believe me, I've seen plenty of homes built by immigrant workers, and we are NOT getting as good a product as we were years ago. -Not even close.
I spent years working as an apprentice, LEARNING each trade one by one. Today, hispanics come across our border, go to Home Depot and buy a hammer, and all of a sudden they're a "carpenter". Or, they run to the paint store, buy a couple brushes, and call themselves a "painter".......you get my point.

-I spend many weeks working for people that call and ask me if I would come to their home and FIX problems that their Builder (with an hispanic crew) left behind. It's turning into a full time job around here!

Open Borders would lead to a nightmare, Tom. Sorry I don't agree with you on this one buddy. -But I like your style! ;-)

However, look at the way things are now... We already have an influx of workers, but they're not on the books at all. So, they're making less than minimum wage, not paying taxes, and draining social services in various ways (kids, emergency care, etc)

I would argue that the situation we're in now is much worse than the situation we would be in if we would have allowed more immigrants legally. We'd also have a much better argument for deportation, because the first thing the leftists like to say when you suggest deporting illegals is "but our economy depends on them."

It's a tough concept to grasp that allowing an influx of people would actually increase the demand for workers and improve the economy, but if you do some reading on it you might change your mind.

Tom, sooner or later you always fall into your same pattern ... leftists like me? lol No, our economy does not depend on them and I don't mind the initial "difficulty" that would be caused by excessive deportations. I'm in favor of increasing legal immigrations, but there have to be LIMITS. If ever there was a job specifically made for a FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, military and border protection would be it.

"Way down deep I'm very superficial" - ALEA IACTA EST - "What we do in life echoes in eternity."

WC, how would that make Wilson a lefty? He's saying the opposite of "but the economy depends on them."

My point earlier was that the left always counters deportation propositions with the old and tired argument that the illegal immigrants do jobs that Americans "won't" do. They say this because they want to protect their social welfare programs that would obviously vanish after a short time if all illegals were deported, if not by economics, then by the next election cycle.

Then you ARE NOT for open borders, Tom. You are for improved access to and for LEGAL IMMIGRATION status. That is a HUGE difference, and something I think that we can all agree on - less bureaucracy and ridiculous and interminable waits for those who are willing to do what our forefathers did - become LEGAL citizens.

Hate to burst everybody's bubble but OPEN immigration isn't the answer either. Tom you stated: "Overall, there is no moral or ethical reason to keep someone from coming to our country legally unless it can be shown that they are an enemy of our people." I may agree with that, but there are OTHER considerations at work aside from morality or ethics and it's the prerogative of every nation to develop their policies of inclusion/exclusion.

I don't think "criminality" should be the only factor here. Rather than use terms like "open borders" (equivalent to NO border) or open immigration, I prefer a term like the "liberalization" of immigration policy. Yes, the number of people allowed into this country LEGALLY should be adjusted upwards (from ALL nations), but without controlled and capped immigration you're just inviting trouble that no government or free market system can control.

PS: By the way, "temporary work authorizations" should be just that, TEMPORARY.

"Way down deep I'm very superficial" - ALEA IACTA EST - "What we do in life echoes in eternity."

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