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Smoking Kitchen Aid

Smoking Kitchen Aid

Hello all, this is my first post to The Fresh Loaf. I hope I am posting this in the correct forum. I received a beautiful Kitchen Aid mixer for my wedding and I have been using it (A LOT) for the last two years. I make a lot of bread (still learning). Wednesday (Day before Thanksgiving..of all days) I was prepping dough for dinner rolls and the standmixer started smoking! The gears overheated, I guess.

I worry that my kitchen aid was not powerful enough to handle heavier doughs. I cannot do double batches of dough. I thought, well, if I cannot fix the current standmixer I have, I may look into a kitchen aid with a stronger moter. While researching, I found that one reviewer for a Professional series machine, had trouble with her machine because after 10 minutes of standmixer kneading, the machine turned off to prevent overheat. Those that commented on her review stated that in a stand mixer, you do not need to knead dough more than 2-5 minutes. She replied back that with that short a time, gluten development is not complete and there is no "window pane."

When I originally received my stand mixer, I had only been kneading for at the most 5 minutes. After reading and learning more about bread making, I started kneading longer in the kitchenaid, to try and get that windowpane, when I stretch my dough. (I don't really get it, even after 15 minutes). I am thinking that the extended time, I kneaded the dough, caused the machinery in the stand mixer to overheat and smoke.

I guess what I am asking is:

1) If you are using a standmixer, how long do you normally knead your dough.

2) Do you continue to knead by hand after using the mixer?

3) What KitchenAid mixer, would be good for big batches of dough or do you recommend I try a different machine?

Thanks ahead of time, for any advice.

Samina

*posted to a comment:

The model I have: Kitchen Aid 5 qt Stand mixer, Artisan. Normal every day bread recipes are at minimum 1 1/2 cups of flour. The I don't have much problems with that. The recipe I was using when the kitchen aid started smoking: was 6 cups of flour (It also had 2 cups of mashed sweet potatoes). Hope this info helps.

*If I had researched about mixers, I would have probably not gone with a kitchenaid as well. Problem is I have a lot of attachments (Which my husband and I both use), so unless they can be used on other mixers brands, I will have to unfortunately stick to KA mixers and be more careful.

It would be helpful to know the model you are using. Those which have a lift bowl design are generally better suited for breads. The newest 7qt models are said to be a superior design, but remember that Kitchenaid products are not Hobart commercial quality. How much flour are you mixing? I just replaced gears in my 12 y/o Pro 6, so I know they can last if not overtaxed. I make bagels according to Hamelmans formula, but I don't load more than 500 grams of flour into each batch. Bagel dough is about as stiff as it gets.

I am using the model KitchenAid Artisan 5-qt. Stand Mixer - Red (KSM150). My husband put it on the gift registry because he knew I liked to bake and he has a favorite recipe that uses the grinding attachment. I had not heard of a stand mixer prior to receiving one. That being said, I don't know much about the other models and brands. This incident is making me research them. I read about the Hobart quality just today. My mother-in-law didn't know about the quality change but was astounded that my machine smoked. Her's was her mothers and she received a 25 year old machine that still works! I appreciate you replying.

The modern KA mixer is a wonderful tool for a great many tasks in the kitchen. Unfortunately, mixing bread dough is not one of those tasks. I would not mix bread dough with a KA mixer. Some people do, apparently without problems, but many more experience trouble when mixing bread dough with this mixer.

I definitely hear you on that. While I love the mixer for mixing batters, for me a hand held works just fine. I have problems with my wrist and having a machine knead for me, is such a blessing. Do you only hand knead? Could you recommend a stand mixer that does do bread well?

I use a Hobart made mixer at home that is almost 30 years old. For a new mixer, the Electrolux mixer seems to have great favor among its users. I have personally never used one but have every reason to believe that it is a very good machine. You can read more about it at the link below.

I would suggest if you are purchasing a new mixer though a bigger investment initially but you will not regret the Assistent. They are made in Ankarsrum Sweden and have a reputation for out lasting the owners. High quality and tough. Come with 2 bowls, one for small cookies and angel food cakes or a larger heavy steel bowl for breads and larger batches of baking. Holding up to 20 cups of flour for breads and still running smooth after 12 minutes of kneading. Handmade be people not machines. Worth every penny. Lots of attachments to add later from meat grinder, blender to pasta makers.

Sorry about that. The model I have: Kitchen Aid 5 qt Stand mixer, Artisan KSM150PSOB. Normal every day bread recipes are at minimum 1 1/2 cups of flour. The I don't have much problems with that. The recipe I was using when the kitchen aid started smoking: was 6 cups of flour (It also had 2 cups of mashed sweet potatoes). Hope this info helps.

Actually, the Artisan is one step above the KA Classic. If you look at the instruction manual for the Artisan [page 65 in my version] it states the guidelines for mixing bread, including never going above speed 2.

What KitchenAid mixer, would be good for big batches of dough or do you recommend I try a different machine?

How stiff was your dough and what speed did you use for the hook? It is true, that Artisan series are doing well mostly for beating eggs with your whisk and mixing cookie dough with the planetary attachment. The hook however is very power hungry but still could do a relatively good job on the reasonably hydrated doughs. The amount of dough you had was not necessarily very excessive but the stiff dough, and a lot of it, that is fighting you, could cause this.

Your comment and another poster's comments made me realize that my dough was probably not well hydrated. I thought that the dough was stiff because it was so cold in the house but looking back, likely I didn't put enough water. I was mixing at the lowest speed when it started smoking (white smoke).

6 cups of flour weighs 850-900 grams. That's way too much especially with the other ingredients. My suggestion is to do this in two batches and knead the two together by hand. Otherwise you'll be buying a new mixer in short order.

Yup, that is what I gather from my research and what I am reading here. Good idea about batches though. I will look into the Bosch Universal and the Electrolux mixer. I was looking at the KitchenAid Professional 600 (KP26M1XCV) as well.

If I had researched about mixers, I would have probably not gone with a kitchenaid as well. Problem is I have a lot of attachments (Which my husband and I both use), so unless they can be used on other mixers brands, I will have to unfortunately stick to KA mixers and be more careful.

I've owned a KA mixer for about six years, I bake several times a week and made hundreds of breads in it. It never gave me a slightest trouble. But as I took care to figure out what it can and can't do, and what's the right way to use it. There tons of people like me here, we just don't tend to scream as loudly as KA-haters.

I love my kitchenaid and I am extremly upset that it is broken right now. It was a wonderful bridal gift and given with love. Furthermore, I use mine daily. Next to the oven, its my most treasured cooking aid. I just believe, based on what I have learned from posts here and from the two years I have been making bread, that this particular machine, is not strong enough for my needs. The fact that my machine gave out on me, brought it to my attention and I am here trying to learn where I went wrong and to make better decisions.

Sometimes, "better decisions" include reading the manual and getting to know your appliance. Just get it fixed, use it properly, and enjoy! Perhaps, you would not be kneading five pounds of dough at once as some of us do using the Pro Heavy Duty KA machines, but you will still enjoy it immensely on a smaller scale.

Better decisions as to what strength and size (of bowl) would fit my cooking/baking needs. Please don't assume I didn't read the manual. From the manual's quidelines, which I have read, used when I first started learning to make bread with the kitchenaid and just re-read three times, to make sure of the information brought up in this thread, I was within the limits of the flour. I do believe I did not hydrate enough, making the dough harder to mix. That was a mistake that can be definitely remedied. My manual does not say mix with paddle first. I don't know why, but I followed its instructions. It was wrong instructions and I will be using the paddle first in the future. But don't assume I didn't read the manual.

The only thing we assumed that your manual cannot be that dramatically dissimilar from ours. By the way, what the troubleshooting page says? And if you did call KA helpline, what was their advise? In any event, we hope that this discussion was helpful to you, and very soon you will continue to enjoy home baked bread again.

This discussion was extremely helpful and I do appreciate it. I got the feeling that it was thought that I just abused the machine without care about the information from the manual. I studied the machine's manual when I first got it because this was the first expensive machine I had ever had dedicated to cooking. It is practically my best friend in the kitchen. I was waiting until Monday to call the helpline. I am not sure if they would be open on Thanksgiving and it has been a very busy weekend. I hope they will tell me how to fix it. I would rather fix what I have than get something new.

The trouble shooting page talks about the mixer may warm up during use and under heavy loads with extended mixing time periods, I may not be able to comfortably touch the top of the unit. It states "this is normal." It also says there may be an odor, especially when new and it is common for electric motors. Also, if the flat beater hits the bowl, stop the mixer and "see beater to bowl clearance."

Finally:

If your Stand Mixer should malfunction or fail to operate, pleasecheck the following:- Is the Stand Mixer plugged in?- Is the fuse in the circuit to the Stand Mixer in working order? If youhave a circuit breaker box, be sure the circuit is closed.- Turn the Stand Mixer off for 10-15 seconds, then turn it back on. If themixer still does not start, allow it to cool for 30 minutes before turningit back on.- If the problem is not due to one of the above items, see the“KitchenAid® Stand Mixer Warranty” or “Arranging for Service After theWarranty Expires” on pages 4 and 5.- Do not return

I think it important to understand that the machine did not give out on you, you broke it by pushing it well beyond its ability, and using it in a way it was never meant to be used. Once you accept that and make necessary corrections you can enjoy long and healthy relationship with your KA. For what it's worth, the best bang for the buck is the model sold in Sam's/Costco.

I too received the KA Aritsan as a gift and recognize by the above posts that it has limitations when it comes to dough kneading. Clearly KA must also recognize the limitations of their machine given the "Rapid Mix Method" shown in their manual. But after reading this thread I still have a couple of questions...

So Suave or others, under the subject of "limitations", do you have any suggestions or rules-of-thumb for dough recipe size limits and associated kneading time limits that the KA mixer is capable of handling?

I guess the other question is would have is - What types of bread do not do well with the KA "rapid mix method" and need the traditional kneading times? This is most likely something I will have to do a bit research on, and/or do a bit of T&E. But comments migh be helpful.

Other comments related to the above 2 questions from the KA friendly crowd might also be a bit helpful.

PS: After hitting SAVE saw the post from flournwater showing 6 to 10 mins with no problems... This is sort of what I was looking for. What would be nice is a table showing dough weight, hydration, and allowable kneading times by the KA without problems... I'm assuming 6 to 10 mins achieved the desired result....

I have the same model KA mixer; had it for five years. I use it almost exclusively for bread dough ranging from 50% hydration to 80% hydration without difficulty. But the mixer is light/medium duty and not designed for handling 700+ grams of dough. I try to lilmit my bread dough to 300 grams (+/_) and never exceed 500 grams with this mixer. Like any stand mixer, it works fine as long as you don't overload it; it's not a cement mixer. The "smoke" you experienced was not the gears burning, it was the motor windings/bearings overheating.

I've used the dough hook on this machine to knead dough for 6 - 10 minutes without any problems. If you decide to purchase another mixer, focus most on power and not brand names. KA makes a fine stand mixer but not all of them are suited for heavy duty work. Look at their K5SS, 5KSM5 series. If you've got the bucks to spend, one of those would most probably do the job for you.

After reading your post, I did a search of the two series you mentioned. I couldn't find the 5KSM5 series but the K5SS is selling on Ebay with Holbart, listed as the manufacturer. The model had a 325 Watt. My current mixer is also 325 watt but would I be right to say that the Holbart machine's parts are better quailty than the one I have? Would I be still limited to small batches but the machine would last longer?

On a note, noticing everyone mentioning grams of dough...I am looking forward to purchasing a proper scale (yea Christmas). I must seem like such a newb to all of you. I didn't start making bread until 2 years ago and only in the last year, start really concentrating on the science and technique. I have a lot to learn.

When I make whole wheat sandwich loaves, I use 850gm of dough a loaf. That's for relatively small loaves. Do other happy kitchaid owners concur with these limits? I'm asking because I have what sounds to be the same mixer, and if the limit is 500gm of bread dough, I will go hide the dough hook somewhere so I'm not tempted to use it again. I never make dough in quantities that small. The 6 cups of whole wheat the manual claims (for some reason, I think mine said 5 cups one place, 6 in another), is borderline enough to make the two loaf whole wheat recipes in Laurel. However, I can't say I've ever gotten any quantity of whole wheat dough to window pane in mine. I bake 3 loaves of whole wheat sandwich bread most weeks, and work it by hand. I keep hoping for an easier solution (I don't window pane it by hand usually, either).

Beside the mixer, you'd want to look at the dough you are kneading with the machine, is it slack (soft enough) to be easily manipulated by the hook? Furthermore, resting your dough for 5 minutes following 5 minutes mixing does wonders to the development of your dough. If you need to achieve a windowpane during early mixing stage, mix for 5 more minutes (on 2 speed), rest for a final 5 minutes, then preshape/shape. Remember, your dough should be soft enough, so as not to strain your mixer motor.

Thank you for the welcome :) I normally don't let the mixer go past 2 when I am mixing. For long kneads, I keep it on the first setting. I think that when I was making the last dough, I was still adding water to the mix and did not add all, before it started to smoke. So I definitely think it was strained just from the dough being too stiff. I am going to definitely try resting the dough, as you described. Especially since I will be hand kneading for a little while. Thankfully, I have a husband who insists we get this stand mixer situation remedied right away (he loves fresh bread and knows how much I love making it). Thank you for the advice!

Two points. First, doesn't the manual for the mixer say that you should never, ever use hook on first setting? Second, the fastest way, and in my opinion the most correct way to mix in KA's is to put the liquids in first, then add flour. I also believe that it is better to overshoot water and add flour than the other way around.

Do not exceed Speed 2 when preparing yeast dough. This may damage the mixer.

Page (?) or 21 for my pdf reader: Never use recipes calling for more than 8 cups of all purpose flour or 6 cups of whole wheat flour when making dough with a 4 1/2 quart tilt-head mixer (Mine is 5 quart and I was using 6 cups all purpose flour).

Nowhere in the manual does it state never, never use hook on first setting.

I normally put all my ingredients in together, except for 1/2 the liquid and gradually add more liquid in, based on how I see the dough is forming. I was extra careful, in this case, as I didn't want to add more flour to the bowl.

The reason I kept the mixer at speed 1 was I was combining and the dough was stiff.

Samina, is there a page that describes each of the attachments and their use? If it's not in your manual(I have a feeling it is but you didn't make it there yet), just remember: stirring and combining on the first speed is done by the paddle, that flat thing with holes, and never by the hook. Once all your ingredients are combined, stop the mixer, remove the paddle, attach the hook, and enjoy your kneading on the second speed. And if in addition to that, you properly hydrate your dough, in thirty years from now you will be telling people that your beloved Kitchen Aid was the best thing ever happened to you in the kitchen.

I will try using the paddle first, then dough hook (if I get my machine running again). I really do love my kitchenaid and I have been trying to get my mother to get one to make her life easier. I am to tears that such an expensive piece of equiptment is broken after two years. As for the page you were referring to: There is no specific page for the different attachments and their use. There is a page for the function of the different speeds, then how to whip cream/eggs, make cake batter and the last is "General Instructions for making and kneading yeast dough with the rapid mix method"

GENERAL INSTRUCTIONSFOR MAKING AND KNEADING YEASTDOUGH WITH THE RAPID MIX METHOD“Rapid Mix” describes a bread baking method that calls for dry yeast to bemixed with other dry ingredients before liquid is added. In contrast, thetraditional method is to dissolve yeast in warm water.1. Place all dry ingredients including yeastinto the bowl, except the last 1 to 2cups of flour.2. Attach the bowl and dough hook.Lock the mixer head. Turn to Speed 2and mix about 15 seconds, or untilthe ingredients are combined.3. Continuing on Speed 2, gradually addthe liquid ingredients to the flourmixture and mix 1 to 2 minuteslonger. See A.NOTE: If the liquid ingredients are addedtoo quickly, they will form a pool aroundthe dough hook and slow down themixing process.1. Continuing on Speed 2, gently add theremaining flour, 1⁄2 cup at a time. See B.Mix until the dough clings the to thehook and cleans the sides of the bowl,about 2 minutes.2. When the dough clings to the hook,knead on Speed 2 for 2 minutes, oruntil the dough is smooth and elastic.See C.3. Unlock the motor head and tilt it back. Remove the dough from thehook. Follow the directions in the recipe for rising, shaping, and baking.When using the traditional method to prepare a favorite recipe, dissolve theyeast in warm water in a warmed bowl. Add the remaining liquids and dryingredients, except last the 1 to 2 cups flour. Turn to Speed 2 and mix about1 minute, or until the ingredients are thoroughly mixed. Proceed with Steps 4through 6.Both methods work equally well for bread preparation. However, the“Rapid Mix” method may be a bit faster and easier for new bread bakers.It is slightly more temperature tolerant because the yeast is mixed with dryingredients, rather than with warm liquid.

Furthermore, in their tips, it says:

Always use the dough hook to mix and knead yeast doughs.

The instructions manual was how I first started to learn how to make bread with the kitchenaid to begin with. :( This is very frustrating.

OK, but now you know better. :) Keep in mind that kneading the dough is not exactly the same as mixing concrete. A very stiff dough that fights you would not only potentially damage your machine but may also produce a bread inferior in quality and taste. A good training exercise while your KA is getting fixed would be kneading a few loafs by hand just to get a feel for it. Once you know what a nice dough should look like on all stages on kneading, adding more water, or time, or resting periods would come naturally.

My usual sandwich loaves are between 75 and 82% hydration, and I've had little luck kneading them in my kitchenaid. I'm trying to make sense out of what the actual limits of the mixer are (Following the limits in my manual isn't getting me anywhere. They seem to be wildly optimistic.)

What are the other flours in the recipe? Did you calculate you final dough hydration including the flour and water in your 50% sourdough (assuming it has the same hydration as in your mentioned starter)? Did you autolyse? What exactly happens during kneading? What KA model do you have? Did you hydrate with just water, or yogurt/buttermilk, etc.? What was the total weight of your dough that gave you trouble? Did you use the paddle attachment on the first speed to incorporate, or did so with the hook? Lots of variables... also, seeing the actual recipe would help.

I was dabbling with that flour, but found it highly inconsistent. I'm usually making the oatmeal or buttermilk breads from Laurel's Bread Book. I believe the hydration on both is around 76%. The oatmeal bread is made with only water. The buttermilk bread is half buttermilk, half water.

Most recently, I was making pumpkin rolls. Unfortunately, the hydration is nearly impossible to calculate, since the pumpkin is an unknown factor. If the pumpkin were water, they'd have been 80% hydration, but it was half pumpkin puree, half water. So, who knows. I'd mixed ingredients by hand, autolysed, and kneaded by hand a while. I was running short on time, so I split the dough in two (20oz of flour in each half), and tried the mixer. I was using the dough hook on speed two. I gave the first batch 5 minutes, at which point it was forming a mass around the hook and not accomplishing anything. The second batch made it 7 minutes, but by that point the mixer was hot enough I was noticing the heat from a distance. At that point, I quit. The dough still wasn't anywhere close to windowpaning. It didn't look substantially improved from when I stuck it in the mixer.

If very long term memory serves, an electric motor is within specs if the motor casing is ≤40℃/72℉ above ambient temperature. In a 68℉ kitchen, a 140℉ motor casing is within specs, but way too hot to touch. Do not bet the ranch on my memory. There are members who have spoken of draping freezer cold-packs over the motor housing.

I have no sense of smell. None at all. So, I am prone to having my husband walk into the kitchen and yell at me to turn off the mixer because he smells burning. I can only detect smoke when the air starts to get visibly foggy. (Bear in mind that I'm not exceeding the listed flour rating on the mixer or the directions as far as I can tell). So, when the mixer gets hot, I get nervous. I have no easy way of knowing whether I'm pushing it too hard. That's why I keep asking about specific specs of how long at how many pounds of dough and at what hydration. I really just need hard and fast rules. I don't have a very good feeling about the rules listed in the manual, since they seem over-optimistic.

It seems clear that if you use the KA for bread making, you are very much limited to either or both of small batches or very soft doughs. A common 2×1½lb. batch of relatively low hydration sandwich bread is beyond the capabilities described by even the fans of the KA; don't even consider a 3lb. batch of 50% hydration bagels, where a DLX would handle twice the dough or maybe 3 times as much. That's not to say the DLX is a better general use mixer*, but it does say it's better for bread. There is no doubt the KA mixer is well suited to the many needs of the cook, but as a bread mixer/kneader it is clearly unfit for purpose. I guess it's like using your pop-up toaster to cook your steak; it gets hot enough, but …. ;-)

cheers,

gary

* The DLX is a good general purpose mixer. It gives me no trouble at all with meringue, whipped cream, cakes, quick breads, cookies, or of course bread from small to large batches or stiff to slack doughs. I just mean that I am not trying to make an over-all comparison. ~gt

That's not exactly true. You're taking the comments on Artisan series and extending them to the entire brand. Personally, I have no problem kneading 3.5 lb batches of standard 65% hydrated lean dough, or 3 lb batches of 60% hydrated sandwich bread dough. Not on speed 4, for 15 minutes, to a windowpane, but then again, I believe that kneading to a windowpane is stupid to begin with (for most of what I make). Now let's talk about that 3 lb batch of bagel dough, that's what - 12 bagels? Why would I ever need so many, and if I did what would prevent me from mixing two batches? May be even two different doughs? So, no KA is quite capable of kneading adequate amounts of bread. And truly, in the end it is not the mixer that one needs, it's head and hands.

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