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I got significant pushback. I took the responsible coarse of action and allowed naysayers to come as I knew the onus was on me to validate my ideas -then perceived as outlandish.

It is what it is. This is martial community. That standard -to be tested-is well documented and accepted. To refuse to do so, makes its own statement to the community. Like it or not, agree or not, accept it or no...if someone is actively dialoguing with a community, there are consequences both good and bad.I accepted the responsibility of what I was saying.
Dan

Let the record show that not all naysayers "have been allowed to come," nor have any open seminars with Dan occurred.

Further, let the record show that Dan has successfully prevailed several times upon both Jun Akiyama and Stan Pranin to delete entire threads when those discussions go in directions that Dan does not like.

Finally, let the record show that Dan, unlike Graham and many others, steadfastly refuses to allow himself to be filmed, thus avoiding the kind of thoughtful, critical evaluation that he so generously shares with the readers of AikiWeb.

Jim

Not having anything around to read is dangerous: you have to content yourself with life itself, and that can lead you to take risks. - M. Houellebecq, Platform

Let the record show that not all naysayers "have been allowed to come," nor have any open seminars with Dan occurred.

Further, let the record show that Dan has successfully prevailed several times upon both Jun Akiyama and Stan Pranin to delete entire threads when those discussions go in directions that Dan does not like.

Finally, let the record show that Dan, unlike Graham and many others, steadfastly refuses to allow himself to be filmed, thus avoiding the kind of thoughtful, critical evaluation that he so generously shares with the readers of AikiWeb.

Jim

Jim Sorrentino always seems to rear his ugly head up when Dan is involved in some perceived controversy, because of his long-standing conflicts with Dan. Jim lacks the integrity to deal directly with Dan, rather he prefers to take pot shots, like this post and yet he wonders why Jun and Stan have deleted entire threads? Jim even tried to instigate Dan to appear at an Ushiro Sensei seminar, thinking that he could cause a problem for both Dan and Ushiro Sensei. Dan Harden, myself and Ushiro Sensei displayed the kind of upfront integrity that not only prevented that low-ball, backhanded, failed action, but helped to further strengthen my relationships with those men of honor.

Dan has been vetted in-person by multitudes of people who have commented about his skill sets. Now that you have taken your cheap pot shot, yet again, can we enjoy not reading your posts for awhile? I guess being in Washington, D.C. for so long, has not been good for your level of integrity.

Jim
What does this have to do with this thread?
I'll add them up. Just for you.
I think we're looking at something like 16 people out of over 1,100 seminar attendees. Some for being affiliated with you or another individual.

Many, who have come (who are even posting in this thread) were naysayers, some who spoke publicly against me, and many of those have now become friends. Three of them very good friends.

Jim
Since you now know of many people who have spoken highly of my efforts (and no I am not perfect), why is it you never mention that...at all?
Why is there no attempt at a fair hand?
Very good friends and supporters of you have openly rebuked you for it and sent me copies of their emails. They also spoke well of you to me. Be kind, Jim.
It's time to let it go.

The understanding of the mind/body connection had an ultimate yield. It was never a nebulous, spiritual whos who, tooth fairy, kitchen sink endeavor. It is a mind/body technology. The men who pursued it were substantial.
So reading modern corruptions in understanding from people lacking any power whatsoever places them outside...looking in from the jump. It should disqualify them at the start, but the real problem is that so many in Aikido are so unaware and uneducated that they can't take part either. They see the physical issues with their approach and they try to fix it with waza, movement and sadly- muscle. At least they see some of the failures in the model though and are trying to find better information.

The rather Ecumenical movement approach to group spirituality we are reading here does not apply to tried and true models of power building that exists in practice in Asia. Most notably those used for warriors, and the ones Ueshiba was quoting as his own methods for Aikido. Since the people lacking power don't truly have any idea of what it takes to produce power and aiki, what it looks like or feels like, or what to look for, they grasp at straws hoping for a positive outcome.

Interestingly, there actually was/is a spiritual/mind/body process with an ultimate yield that warriors and monks explored. None of what has been expressed here, has anything to do with that though. Ki as "universal energy" is just not going to get anyone there.
Dan

You mistake peer pressure...pressure to conform...with peer review which is an effort in an honest evaluation of something that is being presented.

If I step up and say this is the way, I can do it all, I have a clear understanding of what the real meaning was, the real intent is........... I would expect someone to raise a hand in question.... If I say that I can handle every situation, every individual, every occurrence....I would expect some one to raise a hand in question........ If I were to say my way is the way, that the rest of you have no clue, you don't get it, you don't/can't understand it..... I would expect someone to raise their hand in question.... When folks raised their hands you took it as pressure to conform.....and walled up......

As for me I am no ones lap dog

I have a small picture posted on my wall that sez "He won't site, He won't beg, He won't heel.... BAD DOG Built to bark......"

I also have the phrases up like:

Be Skeptical, but learn to listen

Live each day with courage

Be tough, but fair

Know where to draw the line

Remember that some things aren't for sale

Take pride in your work

Do what has to be done

Always finish what you start

Give allegiance and respect where they are deserved and returned

The world is what you think it is

There are no limits

Energy flows were attention goes

We are each responsible for our experiences

The point of power is always in the present moment

Bless the present, Trust yourself, Expect the best………

Having said all of this....I expect folks to offer their comments and opinions, whether asked for or not, I also expect that I will look at all of these, may ask others for their take on things and adjust as needed. It is also very likely that I would get out and see by personal contact were the reality rest.....but that is just me......

Bye the way, congrats on the fun time you had with the soccer.......

Gary

Gary.
I gave various examples of peer, only one on peer pressure, I used your definition too.

Peer review. Who is anyone to review? In a system complete with heirarchy, more advanced, higher graded, peers then they may review and that would be very useful. That is standard. Albeit quite minor really, but standard none the less. The peers are of your style, your line, your organization, your world.

All others are not your peers. So I suggest most of you should review the words you use. So forget all this peer review nonsense when talking about someone outside of your organization and your world.

My training had plenty of review and testing thank you by my peers.

So what is it you and others here are saying? You and they are not my peers. You and they are unqualified to review therefor. You and they are only qualified for peer review with those doing the same style or way as you.

So anything you mean or are trying to say you need to reword.

What do you mean by accepting and expecting others comments and opinions and then asking others their views and then even going out to meet some maybe? You say it like it's something I don't do, have never done, am against.

I may have done this more than you so what's your point?

If I was to say.........(all those things) you put above? What's all that about?

So what is it you and others here are saying? You and they are not my peers. You and they are unqualified to review therefor. You and they are only qualified for peer review with those doing the same style or way as you.

So anything you mean or are trying to say you need to reword.

Graham I don't have a clue who your peers are......it is a mystery group......but no matter......the truth being that you and I are not on the same page.....and likely will never be........

Quote:

What do you mean by accepting and expecting others comments and opinions and then asking others their views and then even going out to meet some maybe? You say it like it's something I don't do, have never done, am against.

Can't tell from what you say here.....don't know where you have been and who you touched bases with in the Aiki world....

Quote:

I may have done this more than you so what's your point?

You know you may have......but thanks for the thought...I'll take the time to sit down and make out a list of who I have trained with just for my own satisfaction.........

Reality time people. All this waffle about what others should do and the way things are done whilst at the same time trying to imply I must this or that and imply I blah, blah, blah....

Well, as this is a thread on my Aikido and invites others to say things about their Aikido or indeed ask about mine I will show you something. That something is reality.That something is what Ueshiba says even in his rules of training. To the effect that each teacher can show you a part of Aikido, the rest is for you to learn through honest, sincere training. So who is anyone to tell me or you anything.

So here we go. I think many will relate to this:

When I entered Aikido I wanted to learn what was promised. The first thing, on the first lesson I wanted to learn was that unbendable arm. How the hell does that guy do that? My first challenge.

As time goes on every week spotting new challenges, got to learn that!

Anyway time goes on and many accomplishments later new challenges raise their head. I can now have a handle on most of the techniques but when it comes to those big guys....so next challenge.

Then strange ones like how come with that person I get stuck. How comes I seem to hold back with certain types of people, etc. So that's the next challenge and goal.

Note that the actual testing is all good but nothing compared to these personal challenges and goals. No comparison. These challenges are harder than the tests.

Then the challenge of what happens the moment someone picks up a bokken or weapon. One point gone, calmness? what's that? ....Next challenge, next goal. And so on and so on.

The negative mind can be a good teacher too, full of what if's and yeah buts. What if someone was using boxing? What if they were real thugs? What if someone kicks? What about outside? All new challenges, all new goals.

All stemming from doing one thing continuously, on a path.

Now what happens when you achieve these goals? These are the plateaus usually precede by some kind of epiphany.

What happened when you were stuck on let's say tai sabaki? You tried to do it but it didn't have the effect it should according to your teacher. So you practice.

Then you get good at it and you can do it to good effect sometimes, then quite often, then most times. Depending....

Depending on who, where, when, etc. So you practice on them. One fine day you find it doesn't matter who.

Now on another side of the coin. Teaching. Same cycle of learning happens there too.

Graham I don't have a clue who your peers are......it is a mystery group......but no matter......the truth being that you and I are not on the same page.....and likely will never be........

Can't tell from what you say here.....don't know where you have been and who you touched bases with in the Aiki world....

You know you may have......but thanks for the thought...I'll take the time to sit down and make out a list of who I have trained with just for my own satisfaction.........

enjoy you journey........

Gary

That's right Gary you don't know. Ahhh, enlightenment.

I don't know yours either and you know what? I don't need to.

Those I meet I may ask a few questions only just to get orientated as to what type of thing they do. That's all. That's all that's necessary. The rest is of little importance except for the self important.

I enjoy your explanations of what you do and how you do and your views on what you are into lately.

There are some on here who often visit my threads or say x, y, and z, to me but you know what? They never share what they do and how they do it and how they feel about what they do. Some have never asked "how do you do that?" even once. I find that weird. As a wing chun teacher of my friend used to continually shout when hearing such talk about who should and they should.."No politics!!!'

I am a somewhat enlightened individual and I sense this thread being shut down shorty so, let me just say this: I believe Graham is a very spiritual fellow and spirituality leads every thing he does; including his Aikido. The thing is, he is very independent and follows his own path and not that of others - I am pretty much the same way (even my boat's name is Different Drummer based on Thoreau's writing) however, I am at polar opposites to most of his stuff, but I really admire the guy for being himself; and if there is an award for starting the most threads that get shut down, I am sure he will be a front runner

Reality time people. All this waffle about what others should do and the way things are done whilst at the same time trying to imply I must this or that and imply I blah, blah, blah....

Graham, I've read quite a growing handful of your very authoritative discourses over the past year and I have a lot of respect for your tenacity in the face of some stiff criticism. Your OP is titled "My Spiritual Aikido" and as such I don't think I can comment on the objective value of what another person considers his spiritual philosophy. I've never seen Aikido as a particularly spiritual practice but if you do then I think that's great.

However, I also have to say that if you are holding up your spiritual Aikido as an effective martial methodology (which you do in many of your posts) then other folks have every right to ask for a demonstration of its effectiveness. The proof is in the pie, as they say. Can your "oneness" stop a serious attack? If so, how? And can you DEMONSTRATE it? This is a martial art, after all. Peer review in this genre happens when one guy's stuff works and the other guy's doesn't. (And then they go for beers.)

If there truly is a spiritual component to Aikido then it's this: the humility and gratitude I feel when I touch hands with someone better than myself and I learn something. Deep spiritual revelations are great but if they don't translate into practical skills its really all just a philosophy.

Graham, I've read quite a growing handful of your very authoritative discourses over the past year and I have a lot of respect for your tenacity in the face of some stiff criticism. Your OP is titled "My Spiritual Aikido" and as such I don't think I can comment on the objective value of what another person considers his spiritual philosophy. I've never seen Aikido as a particularly spiritual practice but if you do then I think that's great.

However, I also have to say that if you are holding up your spiritual Aikido as an effective martial methodology (which you do in many of your posts) then other folks have every right to ask for a demonstration of its effectiveness. The proof is in the pie, as they say. Can your "oneness" stop a serious attack? If so, how? And can you DEMONSTRATE it? This is a martial art, after all. Peer review in this genre happens when one guy's stuff works and the other guy's doesn't. (And then they go for beers.)

If there truly is a spiritual component to Aikido then it's this: the humility and gratitude I feel when I touch hands with someone better than myself and I learn something. Deep spiritual revelations are great but if they don't translate into practical skills its really all just a philosophy.

FWIW,

Dave

Thanks Dave and I agree with what you say.

If you have read many of my posts then you will see I oft say how it is effectve and martial too.

With that I therefor have demonstrated the fact thousands of times.

It doesn't happen quite as you say above I would say. I have met many from many different ways. So obviously I have demonstrated. So to do what anyone here says to do is something I have done non-stop for many years. So what's their problem? is what I ask myself.

I teach my way, others come to learn or experience. No ones ever disappointed. Most are 'enlightened' (with a small e) by the experience. The usual responses are either wow! or woah...

That's the best way I can put it.

You know, I find it strange putting things this way, even a little uncomfortable. For if I was to tell you the norm I would sound like some super salesman.

Oneness. Of course it can stop a serious attack. Is that not one of the things Aikido promises?

This I can demonstrate yes. In fact in a number of ways. So the how I would have to have some kind of idea as to where you are coming from so I could explain in a way suited to your understanding.

Sifting some grains of gold from this stream of... Forgot what I was going to say.

Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote:

In a pre-industrial mind ... spirit and flesh were not divided. earth and heaven was one organic whole. And all life was a giant cacaphony of in and yo.

"Cacaphony"? No. Symphony, maybe. In and Yo intertwining at every level, fractally, never in conflict, always balanced. Balanced in the world, balanced in me, balanced in each individual limb, balanced in each small part. In/Yo as a body practice, as something to be actively practiced, like practicing scales. So that I can be balanced in myself, balanced in facing my partner on the mat, balanced in the world.

Even something like global warming is evidence of balance. Man creates the opening with In, nature fills it with Yo. Man may get flattened in the process, but that's our own fault, now, isn't it?

Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote:

Pirsig's book, one of my favorites, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, talks about this and I think his discussions are directly relevant to Aikido...The whole point of Pirsig's book was that this can't and shouldn't be a dichotomy, which I believe is your point as well.

...When I encounter someone whose technique is awesome and they have a solid understanding of the martial aside of the art, then I am apt to pay close attention to their ideas about spirituality. The technique is the bottom line because it's the part that you can't fake. Spiritual discussion without a real ability to manifest the principles in ones body on the mat is just disconnected, nice sounding wishful thinking.

Love Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and I love his conclusion: you change the world and your mind at the same time, together, until you bring them into harmony. Which requires the technical skill to change the world as well as the spiritual skill to control your mind. The two are synergistic, not contradictory.

On your point, I find that people who are serious and diligent tend to be serious and diligent no matter what they're doing. So if good martial artists tend to be worth listening to on spiritual issues, is this correlation or causation?

But I disagree that spiritual ideas can't be tested. There are a few tests:
--Does this resonate? Does it explain my experience? Does it help me understand myself?
--Does it work? Can I use this perspective to be more effective in the world? Does it help me deal with the situations I find myself in?
--Does it help me become the person I want to to be? Does it aid in growth?

Graham, I've read quite a growing handful of your very authoritative discourses over the past year and I have a lot of respect for your tenacity in the face of some stiff criticism. Your OP is titled "My Spiritual Aikido" and as such I don't think I can comment on the objective value of what another person considers his spiritual philosophy. I've never seen Aikido as a particularly spiritual practice but if you do then I think that's great.

However, I also have to say that if you are holding up your spiritual Aikido as an effective martial methodology (which you do in many of your posts) then other folks have every right to ask for a demonstration of its effectiveness. The proof is in the pie, as they say. Can your "oneness" stop a serious attack? If so, how? And can you DEMONSTRATE it? This is a martial art, after all. Peer review in this genre happens when one guy's stuff works and the other guy's doesn't. (And then they go for beers.)

If there truly is a spiritual component to Aikido then it's this: the humility and gratitude I feel when I touch hands with someone better than myself and I learn something. Deep spiritual revelations are great but if they don't translate into practical skills its really all just a philosophy.

FWIW,

Dave

Good morning again David. My reply to you part two.

Oneness and for that matter co-existence. Given and presented as spiritual things. Given and presented as inherent in Aikido. Given and presented as not only effective but essential to the efficacy and advanced ability in Aikido Given and presented as unifying and harmonious and the only barrier to doing it is self, no one else. Given and presented as without it there is fight and contest. With it there is no fight, no contest, only effective harmonious action rather than just effective action.

Spirit and spiritual are all to do with harmony and oneness and all embrasiveness and life thus Aikido fits spirit like a glove.

Oneness and for that matter co-existence. Given and presented as spiritual things. Given and presented as inherent in Aikido. Given and presented as not only effective but essential to the efficacy and advanced ability in Aikido Given and presented as unifying and harmonious and the only barrier to doing it is self, no one else. Given and presented as without it there is fight and contest. With it there is no fight, no contest, only effective harmonious action rather than just effective action.

Spirit and spiritual are all to do with harmony and oneness and all embrasiveness and life thus Aikido fits spirit like a glove.

Yes, and: Before the above mentioned can be let go of...the traits must be acknowledged and accepted. We can't let go of what we can't see and of what we don't own. It is so much easier to keep projecting it out onto other people.

The distractions of thinking that other people are the enemy are seductive.

It takes a lot of courage and fortitude to keep training when we find out who we are really battling.

Yes, and: Before the above mentioned can be let go of...the traits must be acknowledged and accepted. We can't let go of what we can't see and of what we don't own. It is so much easier to keep projecting it out onto other people.

The distractions of thinking that other people are the enemy are seductive.

It takes a lot of courage and fortitude to keep training when we find out who we are really battling.

Other people can be your enemy and handling them kept you and your children alive. Comically, I have seen many Budo people who cannot handle their friends half-ass attack, so what does that say about their real skill?

None of your comments helps you do aiki. This is advice about a mental state with no real consequence in physical interactions.
There is no requirement of "letting go" to do anything with aiki. It sounds like more bad shihan advice...sort of like relax or eat more rice.
The state you are trying to arrive at has a technology that was known. It isn't hopeful..."Oh dear...I hope I "FEEEEL IT today at the dojo" mumbo jumbo. Nor does feeling it require letting go or being of correct mind or righteous spirit.

1. There were plenty of men with Ki, aiki, and skill who were of an aggressive mind.
3. Plenty who were inept physically who were of a refined mind and spirit.

These things are definitive and causal to action. Most people I have met were dabblers and really don't understand the fullness of what was being discussed. Others are only day dreaming about their physical skill level using their ki or spirituality. Warriors knew this and challenged men like this who claimed a developed state, but were actually cowards who never let themselves be put to the test.
I forget the the encounter but in one instance I thought profound; Mr. spiritual sated it would be nothing for him to defend himself against the warrior. The warrior said let's test that out. Mr. Spiritual replied something like it wasn't worth the effort. To which the warrior said in his best Jewish accent; So, what effort?

As Stan noted, most Aikido-ka realize the B.S. going on with so many "ki" and "spiritual" aikido people who have never and will never deliver on anything except with highly cooperative ukes. I just want to make sure the community knows the difference between the B.S.er's and the real people using Ki and aiki and a spirit/mind/body state that is devastating and truly yeilds power against real aggression....THAT HAS BEEN TESTED AGAINST FIGHTERS WITH SKILL.

Please don't throw out the reality and hope of the spirit/mid/body connection due to wankers who don't have their facts right, their history correct, and their lack of any real skill. The Pedagogy of Aikido is real and is commensurate with Asian knowledge of these things.
So dump the chakras making power, and the quasi Western Indian and new age who-do-voodoo, mishmash..."Oh, Oh, I think I feel it today, I am one with the cosmos..." and go back to the Asian model and we can learn real power building and aiki. Don't give up on Aikido's one true promise due to nonsense that will not help you actually have aiki in the first place. Your peers are pursuing it and making progress toward an achievable goal. One that, in the end, is going to just simply stop all of these others in their tracks when they try to "blend with it" and "achieve harmony" with their spirit.. as they are totally dominated and taken for a ride...on contact.
What does that say about the spirit in their aikido?
Is the one able to control the violence of the other...more developed?
Curious minds would like to know
Dan

Thanks for your input, Dan. I see you don't get what I am talking about and that is ok. You just keep beating everybody. I see that works for you.
Have a great 4th and such.
Best,
Mary

At a point people have to succeed. We can call it beating them or winning or whatever name is useful, but in the end it is about controlling agression. Even just getting out of the way....is controlling an outcome. Sure it can be an uplifting practice in the dojo that does indeed develop spirit, but it is a bu-do. I still find it peculiar for people to shy away from acknowledging the need for success while they wear budo clothing and swing weapons. Once we acknowledge that, it becomes a discussion of practical necessities in doing so.
Happy fourth as well to you and Ron.
Dan

Pardon my ignorance, but being a low grade and fair newbie, is Aikido supposed to be classified as a martial art or not? It appears that here we have a lot of people arguing that it has nothing to do with martial integrity and performance and is all about harmony in personal life situations. That's fair enough, but without fully immersing myself in the history of the art, could some-one enlighten (TM) me please??
It appears to me that everyone wants what O Sensei achieved with his untouchable Aiki and "compassion is everything" without going through the serious hard training to achieve that state?

when signing up for lessons, and from what I can gather my teacher, has always focused on the martial capability and effectiveness of the principles - and not whether I can reach a harmonious state through moving meditation, I'd leave that to the Yogi's

Graham, while I might readily accept that you have 'let go' of your mind, I'm not so sure you've ever grasped the essence of spirituality.

In the Chinese concept, mind is necessary to direct the spirit: "mind leads the ki, ki leads the body."

You attribute many negative qualities to mind, and only the rosiest things to spirit. But it is entirely possible to have a very bad spirit and, thus, to have very bad "spirituality".

Ignorance and distortion are two of the characteristics that turn a "spiritual leader" into a "cult leader", resulting in groups like Aum Shin Ri Kyo led by Shoko Asahara and The People's Temple, led by Jim Jones, both of which attempted mass murder in the name of their "spirituality," which they believed was far greater than mental understanding could approach.

The relation between mind and spirit, like that between body and mind or body and spirit, is a prime concern in the Chinese tradition and that carried through to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido. It is a serious mistake to posit mind as somehow negative and spirit as only positive. It is equally mistaken to think that development of technical precision somehow undermines spiritual development. In the asian view, technical polishing is the vehicle for spiritual development and the mind is the "driver" of that vehicle. You have every right to see it differently, but that is also where your path diverges from real aikido and where you should stop preaching about aikido because you are seriously mistaken about it.

Jesus said, "Out of the abundance of the heart come the words of the mouth." And he was referring to lying and envy, hate and such. These come from the heart (spirit)--not from the mind. In the Chinese tradition, the mind is the necessary master that prevents the wild passions of the heart and spirit from consuming one's life and destroying others' lives. Applying the mind to perfection of physical technique is a prime tool for affecting one's spirit, in this view. Of course, all traditional wisdom has to come in through the mind and must be understood by the mind to be fully understood.

So spirit can be bad--even evil--and mind can be the discerning master that chooses which spiritual tendencies to feed and which to starve.

What I perceive in you is a burning need to establish yourself mentally and intellectually as a master of aikido among masters of aikido. What belies that status is your refusal to adhere to the traditional standard of "put up or shut up," which is the same as "put your money where your mouth is" or "prove what you claim." Your insistence on "mentally" presenting yourself with words (often very judgmental) where you physically will not present indicates a spirit that is badly mislead and unbalanced.

If it were not so, your actions would all be spiritual. You would not be reaching for our mental attention with so many words. All your posts are matters of mind and they reflect a spirit that cries out for correction. Dan, Marc, myself and many others try to give you what you are asking for, but you continually laugh it off and continue asking for more. We don't keep contradicting you for our own pleasure, but because you keep crying out for correction.

Good luck.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu