I would like the Gu League community to open a discussion allowing modification to a rule.
Recently the Gu League Admin team has banned Janis for "Reasons: profanity, player harassment, clear intention of provoking and insulting"
I am not starting this thread to defend Janis or the Gu League Admin team.
I am creating this thread to openly discuss the "swearing rule"
As noted Janis was banned for violation of Gu League Rules,
Lately BZFlag has lost a lot of activity and so has Gu League ( I am not opening this thread to discuss this either)
I think the Gu League should seriously reconsider the rules that revolve around swearing, this leagues activity is hurting and removing a player for a week due to swearing is rather silly in my opinion. There is many more important infractions for the Gu League to worry about.
Now there is a server we all know as "Mofo" which allows swearing, I have not reviewed there rules lately but as I last recall they allow swearing but do not allow bigotry or racism. I think the Gu League could follow this simple protocol.
It serves 2 purposes, 1st: It will limit the bans like "Janis, Snake!, Fear, Dazzling4 " and I am sure many others, (https://www.guleague.org/Bans/) Which in results allows increase activity.
2: More freedom upon players that feel like they can voice what they wish in a mature manner.
I have asked many players and most feel in favor of this. I would love to open a line of communication about this and if a vote is enacted I feel pretty positive that it would pass.
I ask if you can't keeps this thread free of a flame war don't bother posting.
Thanks,
CCB

The people who run the GU League want it to be a friendly sportsman-like place that parents are willing to let their young children participate in.

Also, they believe that the existing rule against bad language attracts more players than it drives away, and that is why it is important that it be enforced. There currently isn't a league where bad language is allowed so we can't prove that belief, but anyone who wants to start their own league with their own rules has always been free to do so.

Bullet Catcher: if you feel so confident about that, lets take it to a poll I do not know who you are speaking of, no names listed except your own beliefs.

And I ask the people who run the "gu league" to re consider this to promote activity. Also just because swearing would be allowed, doesn't mean it's not a friendly sportsman like place. Maybe we can get some input from active gu players instead of ones that hop on once a month to hear what sort of league they would like to see. And to give the idea of if you want another league that promotes swearing to create your own is rather selfish and silly, doing that would accomplish nothing.

Also: When the merger was in the works, I thought I read something about ideas for the new "Leagues United", meaning citizens input.

'There currently isn't a league where bad language is allowed so we can't prove that belief, but anyone who wants to start their own league with their own rules has always been free to do so."

No but there is a server which is the most active in the game and doesn't seem to draw anyone away?, same philosophy would surely apply.

if their parents cared so much they probably wouldn't be on the internet, I highly doubt their parents monitor the server they join whether that be a mofo server or gu league server. Off the top of my head I think i can only think of 1 kid that this might even apply to on the gu league, this same kid I have found on mofo often.

Last edited by Zehra on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~ZehraThere's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~ZehraThe time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~ZehraThe decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~ZehraThere's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

Last edited by Zehra on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~ZehraThere's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~ZehraThe time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~ZehraThe decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~ZehraThere's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

One of the clearest and easiest to follow rules of the Leagues is the rule against foul language. There is no confusion surrounding this rule: use foul language, and get kicked or banned. It's simple. If a player chooses to use foul language, they do so fully aware of the consequences. It is not the fault of the rules that they are broken; it is the fault of the player. Lifting that rule will not "allow" an increase in activity because there is no reason why that it cannot be followed.

I think that the lack of activity on the League servers and on bzflag in general has many other factors. When a new player tries bzflag, there is a sharp learning curve. Many of the current players have much more experience than the new player, and the new player gets massacred. They are also faced with trying to remember what all the flags do.

Until recently, the main options for servers were Planet Mofo or a League server. From personal experience, being new at Planet Mofo is a good way to rapidly become unpopular. A few months ago, I signed on to bzflag for the first time in several years, and joined Planet Mofo. Although I recognized many of the flags from before, I had to learn several new flags and learn to avoid the geno, which was hard when I had the skill of a new player. I was accused of geno baiting and constantly yelled at. Also, even when the new player isn't the subject of the anger, many players on Planet Mofo constantly accuse others of cheating or baiting, or just complain in general.

Planet Mofo is also hard on new players because it is chaotic. It would be difficult for a new player to dodge or otherwise avoid any bullets, and there are hundreds flying around on Planet Mofo. Many times I have been unable to stay alive for more than a couple seconds at a time due this.

On League servers, the community is great (which is why I'm usually there, even though I don't play often). However, in my opinion, it also isn't the best for new players. When they first join, they are muted and not allowed to play without registration. If they do decide to register, they are vastly outskilled by all the other players, and as a result, they get massacred. Again, from personal experience, not being able to help your team during a match is a good way to get your 20 minutes of unpopularity.

Note that I'm not seeking to cause changes at either Planet Mofo or the League servers; I am merely sharing my experience.

In my opinion, lifting the rule against foul language would not help activity. There is no difficulty in using polite language to express yourself. The rule is reasonable and easy to follow, and there are other more significant reasons for the lack of activity. Also (again, in my opinion), it is not silly to enforce a reasonable, easy to follow rule, and enforcing that rule does not take time away from enforcing other rules.

" the map: One of the clearest and easiest to follow rules of the Leagues is the rule against foul language. There is no confusion surrounding this rule: use foul language, and get kicked or banned. It's simple. If a player chooses to use foul language, they do so fully aware of the consequences. It is not the fault of the rules that they are broken; it is the fault of the player. Lifting that rule will not "allow" an increase in activity because there is no reason why that it cannot be followed."

no cheating would be, it's not whether there is confusion regarding the rule. Some may become angry and may resort to swearing, whether it's just or not is not relevant.

"ccb: Lately BZFlag has lost a lot of activity and so has Gu League ( I am not opening this thread to discuss this either)"

"the map: I think that the lack of activity on the League servers and on bzflag in general has many other factors. When a new player tries bzflag, there is a sharp learning curve. Many of the current players have much more experience than the new player, and the new player gets massacred. They are also faced with trying to remember what all the flags do. "

You drift off here.

"
In my opinion, lifting the rule against foul language would not help activity. There is no difficulty in using polite language to express yourself. The rule is reasonable and easy to follow, and there are other more significant reasons for the lack of activity. Also (again, in my opinion), it is not silly to enforce a reasonable, easy to follow rule, and enforcing that rule does not take time away from enforcing other rules."

"In my opinion, lifting the rule against foul language would not help activity"
but once a active player is banned due to it, that sure doesn't help.

I understand there isn't difficulty in using polite message, but some rather use colorful language, or as I stated someone might express themselves in another way. Thanks for your input the map!

click click boom wrote:Maybe we can get some input from active gu players instead of ones that hop on once a month to hear what sort of league they would like to see.

Let's not discourage anyone from participating in a discussion intended for the league community; a community that wouldn't exist without the administration or server hosts (some of which may not be active)

My views and opinions do not reflect that of the GU League administration but I'm more lenient when it comes to profanity, probably because I spend a lot of time around Mofo players. The rule, as BulletCatcher said, is intended to create a family friendly environment; of course parents aren't going to be monitoring their child's computer 24/7 and reading all of the logs—the rule shouldn't be taken in a literal sense. The rule is trying to achieve an environment where everyone is welcome and wouldn't be offended; meaning a child would be able to play with their younger siblings, parents, and grandparents and not have to worry about any of them being offended or bothered by the type of language used.

The borderline of this rule is already being tested by several players (a quick search of all of my server logs could prove easily that), which I don't object to. The problem becomes when profanity is used to target and attack another player or a group of players. I mean, sure you can type out something to show your frustration that someone bested you but if that were allowed, the new borderline that players start testing is how offensive they can be to another player before getting banned (I see a number of those on Mofo).

I don't believe the rule should be revoked but at the same time, I do believe the punishment should be a bit more lenient and admins shouldn't be so quick to ban or threaten. I do recall a time where I'd see admins give out several (more than one) warnings before a mute and then a ban, now other admins are banning quicker than I'm muting players to calm them down.

click click boom wrote:Hello all,
1st: It will limit the bans like "Janis, Snake!, Fear, Dazzling4 " and I am sure many others, (https://www.guleague.org/Bans/) Which in results allows increase activity.
2: More freedom upon players that feel like they can voice what they wish in a mature manner.
I have asked many players and most feel in favor of this. I would love to open a line of communication about this and if a vote is enacted I feel pretty positive that it would pass.
CCB

1st: If we have to accept profanity, player harassment, clear intention of provoking and insulting as part of the game in exchange of activity, I prefer to close GU league. Not only because I don't like that kind of attitude in people in real life, but also from a practical point of view: violent language can only escalate. We are not talking here of the occasional "w..." or other short forms of cursing. You know well that we are flexible and just warn the first instances before the situation goes out of control. If this league allows that kind of violent language it will take no time before only you and your 5 friends play here.

2nd: Using profanity, player harassment, clear intention of provoking and insulting is far from "voice opinions in a mature manner" in my view. Your post was indeed voicing your opinion in a mature manner, but we would have not get this far in the discussion should you had written your post with use or cursing, provokation and insults. It is precisely the form you formulated your opinion the very reason we have got this far in the discussion.

3rd: This issue cannot and will not be decided by a vote. No matter if I am convinced your option would probably lose. Since GU League creation, now ten years ago, only admins have made the last decision on league matters. Very rarely we have run a vote and only in case we felt overwhelming player support for a change and no evidence of a real drawback. Example: the time limit question. However, I do not see the conditions hold for a vote, because I see clear damage in the mid-term if the rule is changed.

4rd: Last but not the least, our server owners (those who pay for our fun, mind you) would very likely be against profanity, player harassment, clear intention of provoking and insulting in they servers.

Anyway, I was happy to discuss it since you raised and constructively argued about the issue

" qd: 3rd: This issue cannot and will not be decided by a vote. No matter if I am convinced your option would probably lose. Since GU League creation, now ten years ago, only admins have made the last decision on league matters. Very rarely we have run a vote and only in case we felt overwhelming player support for a change and no evidence of a real drawback. Example: the time limit question. However, I do not see the conditions hold for a vote, because I see clear damage in the mid-term if the rule is changed. "
I strive to see a league ran by players with the voice of players heard and not just the "gu league council" this allows the players to see a league that they envision. ( Don't take it personal)

"3rd: This issue cannot and will not be decided by a vote. No matter if I am convinced your option would probably lose. Since GU League creation, now ten years ago, only admins have made the last decision on league matters. Very rarely we have run a vote and only in case we felt overwhelming player support for a change and no evidence of a real drawback. Example: the time limit question. However, I do not see the conditions hold for a vote, because I see clear damage in the mid-term if the rule is changed. "

I understand the admins have the last decision, and sometimes just sometimes the players should have a word in, especially when there is a majority. I have conducted a poll lately asking numerous players on their thoughts on this topic. I will not disclose there names but the majority is in favor in allowing profanity take place.

"4th: Last but not the least, our server owners (those who pay for our fun, mind you) would very likely be against profanity, player harassment, clear intention of provoking and insulting in they servers."

This is what all debates come down to, whenever something that most gu league councils don't support a decision this is brought up to sway the argument every time. All that I can say is, 1: I feel confident that most servers would allow this, I am not speaking for Allejo or on behalf Allejo but judging by his post below this wouldn't pose a issue on his server. (he has the most active server on the league). 2nd: If this was some major issue I can fully support the running of gu league servers.

Now since there isn't enough over whelming support to allow it. I then ask this question.
Here is the current bans for profanity: Match disturbance, player harassment, profanity, cheat accusations in public (1 day -7 days)
As I previously stated my main concern for all of this is activity being taken away from a player that violates these rules.
When a player uses profanity, the admin may or may not inform the player to stop. If they continue they are banned for "1-7 days" as noted above.
BZFlag has developed immensely since I have started playing 15 years ago. With that being said there is multiple routes the Gu League council can go down in handling a discipline.
For example: If a player swears we jump right towards a ban, why? I do not know. We could easily Mute someone for 2 days, reevaluate their behavior after 2 days and if it's better, great!, we then lift the mute. If they continue to use profanities we then re mute for 4-5 days. We then reevaluate the players behavior and lift the mute. Hopefully now it works if not we re mute up until the 7th day. By this point we hope the individual has learned their lesson. If not perhaps a ban could be imposed. At least by muting a player it allows that person to play. Which in retrospect allows the player to match so activity can thrive. The player did not cheat so they did not jeopardize the authenticity of the game in any means.
Thanks,
CCB

Last edited by Zehra on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Those who are critical of me, I'll likely be the same of them. ~ZehraThere's always something to remember and it's been a game I love. ~ZehraThe time spent is a time which can never be regained, so it's a time to enjoy. ~ZehraThe decisions we make are the ones we look forward too and the ones we regret. ~ZehraThere's a difference between knowing my name and knowing me, one shows respect to my name and the other is to who I am. ~Zehra

click click boom wrote:When a player uses profanity, the admin may or may not inform the player to stop. If they continue they are banned for "1-7 days" as noted above.
BZFlag has developed immensely since I have started playing 15 years ago. With that being said there is multiple routes the Gu League council can go down in handling a discipline.
For example: If a player swears we jump right towards a ban, why? I do not know. We could easily Mute someone for 2 days, reevaluate their behavior after 2 days and if it's better, great!, we then lift the mute. If they continue to use profanities we then re mute for 4-5 days. We then reevaluate the players behavior and lift the mute. Hopefully now it works if not we re mute up until the 7th day. By this point we hope the individual has learned their lesson. If not perhaps a ban could be imposed. At least by muting a player it allows that person to play. Which in retrospect allows the player to match so activity can thrive. The player did not cheat so they did not jeopardize the authenticity of the game in any means.
Thanks,
CCB

Just an FYI to all:
There is a spawn only list that allows players banned for language & trolling to match without talk perms.
This has been in effect for a couple years now, iirc. I added Janis to that list earlier this week and he was fm'g yest.

"Sometimes people try to expose what's wrong with you, because they can't handle what's right about you."
"Measure your words -- they determine the distance of your relationships"

Kierra: thanks for the update on that, I have noticed that, the rules have not been updated to indicate this. So I was completely unaware that this was being practiced. As long as the problem doesn't resolve around activity I am all for it!

A point that also has to be raised is this one..
Janis has played for many years, for many teams and has been contributing member of bzflag and both leagues.
The leagues are dying if not dead, yet admins seam to forget; and continue to be UN-fairly brutal on league players. (weather they've played for two days or two years.)

It will never change. The joy some admins get out of banning a player is much greater then there joy for the game, or desire for an active league.
And its quite clear to players that SOME admins are partly responsible for the decline of players and activity in bzflag.

This reply doesnt shine brightly for some admins and there ever-growing ego's.. would not be surprised if this reply is deleted.

Jacko H wrote:A point that also has to be raised is this one..
Janis has played for many years, for many teams and has been contributing member of bzflag and both leagues.
The leagues are dying if not dead, yet admins seam to forget; and continue to be UN-fairly brutal on league players. (weather they've played for two days or two years.)

It will never change. The joy some admins get out of banning a player is much greater then there joy for the game, or desire for an active league.
And its quite clear to players that SOME admins are partly responsible for the decline of players and activity in bzflag.

This reply doesnt shine brightly for some admins and there ever-growing ego's.. would not be surprised if this reply is deleted.

Will be back one day, Jacko H

^ This reply doesn't shine brightly for some players who aren't active enough in the community to know that GU League is no more and solely want to complain about something from the past.