2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>
> On 01 Dec 2013, at 09:51, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
>
>
>
>
> 2013/12/1 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>
>>
>> On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:37, meekerdb wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>>> I can conceive of (with apologies to H. L. Mencken), Agdistis or
>>>>>>> Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi,
>>>>>>> Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis,
>>>>>>> Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus,
>>>>>>> Balder,
>>>>>>> Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent,
>>>>>>> Brigit,
>>>>>>> Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun,
>>>>>>> Chemosh, Cheng-huang, Clapton, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina (Dumkina), Davlin,
>>>>>>> Dawn, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Eos,
>>>>>>> Epona,
>>>>>>> Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Fortuna, Freya, Freyr, Frigg,
>>>>>>> Gaia,
>>>>>>> Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si,
>>>>>>> Guanyin,
>>>>>>> Hades, Hanuman, Hathor, Hecate (Hekate), Helios, Heng-o (Chang-o),
>>>>>>> Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei,
>>>>>>> Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Iris, Ishtar, Isis,
>>>>>>> Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jehovah, Jupiter, Juturna,
>>>>>>> Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna,
>>>>>>> Kuan-yin, Kukulcan, Kvasir, Lakshmi, Leto, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Luna, Magna
>>>>>>> Mater, Maia, Marduk, Mars, Mazu, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Min, Minerva,
>>>>>>> Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muses, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna (Norse),
>>>>>>> Nanse,
>>>>>>> Neith, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu,
>>>>>>> Ninurta, Njord, Nugua, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir,
>>>>>>> Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Phaethon, Phoebe, Phoebus Apollo,
>>>>>>> Pilumnus,
>>>>>>> Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, RheaSabazius, Sarasvati, Selene,
>>>>>>> Shiva,
>>>>>>> Seshat, Seti (Set), Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu,
>>>>>>> Sin,
>>>>>>> Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos,
>>>>>>> Thor,
>>>>>>> Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr,
>>>>>>> Utu,
>>>>>>> Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi
>>>>>>> Wang-mu,
>>>>>>> Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Zeus. But I see no reason to believe any of them exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which means it is up to you to prove that none of those Gods can
>>>>>> exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because I, or someone else, can conceive of them? Is that how
>>>>> you accept the burden of proof - you must either believe in whatever
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> conceives of or else provide a disproof?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, you are the one saying that no Gods exist,
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, I said I see no reason to believe in them.
>>>
>>
>> That makes you agnostic, not atheist. I recall you that agnostic = ~[]g
>> (& ~[]~g). Atheist = []~g.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You said that being able to conceive of gods makes it hard to disbelieve
>>> in God.
>>>
>>
>> Once you accept that we are ignorant on the origin of the physical
>> universe, you can be open to different sort of explanation. "God" points on
>> an explanation is not physical, but it does not mean it takes some Fairy
>> tale into account. The God of comp is the God of the Parmenides, which is
>> the base of the neoplatonist theology (Plotinus, Proclus). Such a
>> conception is close to Augustin and the christian mystics, the Soufis, the
>> Kabbala, and the East spirituallity.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm saying it is only when you conceive of something that you can say
>>> you fail to believe it exists. Otherwise you don't know what you are
>>> denying.
>>>
>>
>> That's my exact point.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> so you are the one pretending having a clear referent for each of the
>>>> name above, and you are the one acting like if you knew that none exist.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right. Of course I don't have clear referent of each one, but someone
>>> did. They were worshiped and prayed to and sacrificed for. But being able
>>> to conceive of them is what makes it possible say I don't believe in them -
>>> otherwise I wouldn't know what I was failing to believe. It doesn't make
>>> it harder to disbelieve; it makes it *possible*.
>>>
>>
>> We have been naive on thunder, sun, moon, and many things. Obviously we
>> have been naive on God too, but that is not a reason to abandon the idea,
>> which is basically the idea that the physical universe has a non physical
>> reason.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Atheists, like fundamentalists often talk like if they were not
>>>> ignorant in those matter. but in science, not only we are ignorant, but the
>>>> very subject is denied by some scientists (when atheists).
>>>>
>>>> People like Gödel and Einstein where pissed of by "free-thinkers" and
>>>> "atheists", because they were quite aware of their dogmatic attitude. I
>>>> would have read them about that subject, I would have been less naive, and
>>>> probably run away from them.
>>>>
>>>> Atheism and fundamentalist theism is really the same. Same God, same
>>>> Matter. And same violent responses against the doubter and the agnostics.
>>>> Same visceral negative attitude against the application of the scientific
>>>> attitude in the theological field.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm fine with applying the scientific attitude to the theological field.
>>>
>>
>> That is my only point here, besides the study of machine's or number's
>> theology (G* minus G).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And it is characteristic of science that it does not confirm theories,
>>> but sometimes refutes or makes theories very improbable. The theory that
>>> the world was created by a superperson who cares about humans and judges
>>> them and will reward or punish them and answer prayers, the theory known as
>>> "theism", has been tested and found false.
>>>
>>
>> If that is true, we abandon that notion of God, and then we can come back
>> to the original scientific conception of God: the Unknown origin of the
>> Universe.
>
>
> I'm ok with that, why calling that "god" ?
>
>
> Contemporary philosophers call it God. I use the most common term. If I
> could really choose I would use a more feminine name, as "God" as a
> masculine connotation which annoy me a lot. The greek "Theos" means
> panorama, and is the etymology of "theorem": a result which gives a
> panoramic view summing the main things.
>
>
>
>
> You want to be followed and *misunderstood* by all
> christians/muslims/jewish on earth ?
>
>
> I want to be understood by all agnostic scientists. In science we use the
> common vocabulary, and we provide technical simplification. When I use the
> term "biology" instead of "theology", not only this dismissed the G*/G
> distinction, but I was attacked by people saying that is was theology, and
> they were right. Using "theology" prevents the work to be labeled
> "theology" with the negative connotation. I follow both Cantor and Gödel on
> theology. I have also remark that good willing believer have far less
> problem with my reasoning, including the fact that I reason on that
> subject, than with self-labeled atheists. I certainly feel closer to
> believer than disbeliever (who still believes in a transcendental reality,
> but take it for granted, and are unaware that physics is not the same field
> as metaphysics and theology).
> Then you you read the Muslim, Jewish and Christian theologian (instead of
> the "sacred texts"), you can discover that they are very often quite
> rational and serious on the matter, and I have been inspired by many of
> them.
>
>
>
> When you write "god", they don't follow what you have in mind,
>
>
> My talk is addressed to all Löbian machine. The vocabulary appears to be a
> problem only the atheists believers, and of course by any fundamentalist,
> that are the people who are opposed to come back to accepting our
> "scientific" ignorance in the matter.
>
>
>
>
> as such, using god your way is totally misleading because most of the
> people who read you won't have your meaning in mind.
>
>
>
> That is true for all terms. What term should I use? I cannot use "reality"
> or "truth", because that would be the same error than the atheists with the
> term "universe".
> Physics studies the universe,
> but physicalist metaphysics study the consequence that God = the Universe
> (the universe is the explanation of everything)
> likewise comp conclude that God = Truth, but that is a consequence, not an
> assumption.
> In all case those are different things.
>
>
>
> As such, you should restrain from using that word, it's useless.
>
>
> What term would you suggest?
>

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What about "ultimate reality" ? Because that's what you say it means...
It's neutral, does not have all the connotations linked with the word
god... and eventually, that's what you want to convey.
Quentin
> People on this list have already provide terms, but it did not work as
> well as "God", which is used easily to denote the ultimate unknown
> transcendental reality in all culture, where terms like 'universe',
> 'reality', 'truth' would beg the question.
>
> Aurobindo uses sometimes the term "existence", (see the quote below(*)),
> but I have explained to Stephen King why this would be disastrous given the
> precise modern use of "existence" in logic and metaphysics.
>
> Another advantage of using "theology" is to remind that comp is a
> religion, meaning that although comp is science, the *practice* of comp
> needs a special non provable belief in a form of reincarnation, and that
> nobody can impose to you that belief, i.e. an artificial brain. It helps to
> understand the comp ethics which is the right to say "no" to the doctor.
>
> Many religious tradition agrees with most features of the comp "God" or
> "Goddess":
>
> - That it is the incomprehensible "reason" of all things.
> - that is has no name, no description, no images, etc.
> - that it can't be use in science as an explanation (that follow from the
> first point above),
> - that all creatures are confronted with It (again like consciousness),
> - that it can't be invoked explicitly in terrestrial public decision (like
> politics),
> - etc.
>
> Is it a sort of person? perhaps, with some large sense of "sort". It has a
> personal aspect in the manifestation of soul (the inner God that we can all
> awaken, or simply the first person when not too much sleepy).
>
> Bruno
>
> (*)
> *"What, you ask, was the beginning of it all?*
>
> *And it is this ...*
> *Existence that multiplied itself*
> *For sheer delight of being*
> *And plunged into numberless trillions of forms*
> *So that it might*
> *Find *
> *Itself*
> *Innumerably" (Aurobindo)*
>
>
>
>
> Quentin
>
>
>> It is discussed in many books, including many treatise written by
>> theologian, in most traditions. Of course such theologians have problems
>> with the religious institutions. But that is a point in their favor, as
>> most institutions perpetuates authoritative arguments.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But the ONE is not anyone of those, as it has no name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A god, with a name, that might be a comp reason to disbelieve in it,
>>>>>> or to try to look who is hiding beyond the name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly! And "God" is a name.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is a NickName, pointing on the one without name, and in theology, it
>>>> is the most common term used. To change its name would be to give an
>>>> importance of the name. It is the axiom one about God, "It has no name", a
>>>> bit like the tao, which once named is no more the tao.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No it's not a nickname, that's why it is capitalized.
>>>
>>
>> It is capitalized because it is unique, and a name of something very
>> often conceive as a person. With comp, the "person" character of the outer
>> God is an open problem. But the inner God *is* a person.
>>
>>
>>
>> You just like to use it because some atheists gave you a hard time.
>>> Otherwise you could call it "reality" or "the tao" or something else not
>>> implying theism (see definition above).
>>>
>>
>> Not at all. I use it because all the theologians I read use it, and this
>> in many variate cultures. If I was using TAO, most people would believe
>> that I defend specifically Taoism, but what I defend is more general than
>> that, and closer to the Greek notion explained in Plato and Neoplatonism.
>> The problem I got with atheists came before I use any term from theology,
>> as they were oppose the word "mind", "consciousness", AI, and even
>> "computer" for many. I still don't know if the problem was ideological at
>> the start, but apparently it has become ideological.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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