Yeah, 30% is terrible, but having 100% on every single boss fight is in my opinion a tell of a paladin that is not entirely sure what he is doing either. That is a paladin that knows what he is doing, not why. Therefor playing like a robot blindly following what he has read is the best. "The guide said to always reapply sacred shield!"

Absolutely, it has to qualify under effective uptime which is always what you want to look at, and in that sense 100% is hardly ever a realistic number.

Well, I am the first to say, suprising that I go against the norm huh?, that capping hit and expertise is not mandatory. I would still like to see more expertise, especially in this tier, could have understood in 463 gear, than this paladin had. Though the caps are by no means a must have. God, I need to take time later to write a full length thread about hit/exp and stuff. Just been too busy with work atm.

Well, obviously there is going to be varying opinions, but no matter how you look at it; until or exactly at cap, hit and expertise's contribution to our DPS is always the highest. Where haste contributes more at higher vengenace levels (most seen in 25-man to be honest) where strength and AP and crit naturally lag behind the moment we get hit by something. That said, if you are going for a mastery build in 10-man, which i was throwing out there as a viable option in case someone thought otherwise, to ensure your DPS doesn't drop massively at higher vengeance, while still guaranteeing steady and controlled HoPo generation, you will want to cap those stats. It's not even like you have to give up a lot of mastery and/or haste anymore in order to do so. There's very little sacrifice for a massive return in my opinion.

While there are no dps checks directly, all additional damage always help. Beating the enrage by 2 minutes or 3 minutes is a huge difference. Killing a boss faster makes it extremely easy. Not to mention that on a fight like Maegare it can be the difference between getting 2 or 3 breaths on a head

.

This can't be emphasized enough. If your survivability does not suffer, this is a perk that comes with haste that's hard to deny. Still, as with everything else you will have to look at the specific situation you're in. There's still no right or wrong answer, but there are arguments to be made for both, only that this one is a very strong one in haste's favor. Worth mentioning however is that, though the consensus seems to be 10-man tanks see more benefit from haste than 25-man tanks due to less DPS in the raid, the actual DPS gain from haste when we talk purely scaling is a lot lower for 10-man tanks because of how absurdly it shoots up past say, the 120k-150k vengeance mark.

I would like to say the opposite of what you said though. If you are not that good at preidcting your HoPo generation, then haste is better.

Sure, although you will be more vulnerable the times you misstime or misread a situation. However, i will shamefully admit i do not know the raw numbers for the mitigation the passive block from mastery provides off the top of my head. *hangs head*

TL;DFirefly:
His biggest problem will be his weapon and his expertise, that along with Prot pallies being incredibly vengeance dependant for their threat

The weapon does not make the big of a difference.

I have been using this itemCookie's Tenderizer
to tank raid bosses a lot for the lulz. Yes, the normal version, not heroic.

Which weapon a prot paladin use really does not matter. It is only a stat-stick.

His weapon enchant was more like a "god why?" though. Why waste extra gold for a really horrible weapon enchant. He could atleast have bought dancing steel if he was gonna spend big money.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 02:48 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Tossy

This can't be emphasized enough. If your survivability does not suffer, this is a perk that comes with haste that's hard to deny. Still, as with everything else you will have to look at the specific situation you're in. There's still no right or wrong answer, but there are arguments to be made for both, only that this one is a very strong one in haste's favor. Worth mentioning however is that, though the consensus seems to be 10-man tanks see more benefit from haste than 25-man tanks due to less DPS in the raid, the actual DPS gain from haste when we talk purely scaling is a lot lower for 10-man tanks because of how absurdly it shoots up past say, the 120k-150k vengeance mark.

There is no general arguments to be made, however in each specific scenario, there is a right or wrong. Does not have to be the same right or wrong as someone else, but given enough information, there is always a right or wrong.

While yes, haste scale better in 25 man, naturally with more vengeance, the raid dps still increases more than the tanks dps does, and the value of mastery is increased insanely in 25 man, which is the bigger reason that mastery is a common go-to stat in 25 man. Not so much that haste is not valuable, rather than mastery being extremely valuable

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 02:54 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Tossy

It's not even like you have to give up a lot of mastery and/or haste anymore in order to do so. There's very little sacrifice for a massive return in my opinion.

Well, that can be argued.

Say you are a mastery stacking tank, I dunno, you got 55% damage reduction on SotR or something. The rating it takes from going just from soft cap to hard cap expertise is over 4% damage reduction on SotR.

That would decrease the damage you take during SotR by almost 10%. That is a non negliable amount.

If the fight you are on has predictable damage spikes, like tortos or horridon, I would really prefer the mastery over the expertise. On a fight with more steady damage like council, I would probably prefer the expertise.

Though it all boils down to player choice and it is not as easy as you think. The more mastery you have, the more valuable it is in my opinion to skip the hard cap expertise.

Myself I am sitting around 12 expertise +-1.

Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-17 at 01:51 PM.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

And what seems to be the consensus he has too much value in dodge/parry and should be getting a bit more haste but not at the expense, obviously of hit/exp. Is there a haste point he should be going for roughly?

Weapon enchant - A lot of dispute here, just, river song is not even an option.
Colossus
Windsong
Dancing Steel

Those are the 3 main options. I personally used to prefer Dancing Steel in T14 due to some fights having low vengeance levels, however I believe I may opt into Windsong as I get into heroics this tier. I do not value Colossus as high as others do, which he chose is up to him. No correct answer here, valid points to use any enchant.

The value of dodge and parry is close to 0. It is by far his worst stats, then consider that he has a majority of his secondary stat points into his worst stats, that should tell you that he is maybe not using the optimal items for his spec. He is already doing correct in reforging away from dodge and parry. The problem is that he has too much of it on his gear already. Basically, he is like a healer with 5000 hit rating.

What you should do about his SS uptime. Go into your logs, and check his uptime during the time that he takes the most damage. Just set the graph to each individual zone where he is taking a shit ton of damage, and then see if he has SS up 100% then. His uptime for an entire fight is not relevant, the uptime when he is actually taking a lot of damage is.

If he choose to go for mastery or haste is his own chosing, more haste would help him with aggro. Same with more expertise.

I would suggest him to try to get atleast 11-12 expertise. He gould go for the full 15 if he wants to. And then just chose if he want to stack haste or mastery, and then just stack that stat.

There is no real hardcore breakpoints for haste. There are some minor ones, but the first major one come at 50% melee haste (remember that the melee haste buff does not give melee haste, so it has to be 50% haste from stats), which is not really achieveable currently. Same goes for the mastery cap, which is at I believe (do not take my word for it), 21000 rating, or was it 24000 rating, can't remember. Either way, more rating than he can get.

So just dump all remaining points after he gets he comfortable amount of expertise (if that is cap or soft cap or somewhere in between is up to him).

As said, the problem is not really his reforging, as much as his gear choices. He got 8500 parry/dodge rating. That is 8500 rating that could be into something else. He needs to get more gear with only hit/exp/mastery/haste on it.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

And what seems to be the consensus he has too much value in dodge/parry and should be getting a bit more haste but not at the expense, obviously of hit/exp. Is there a haste point he should be going for roughly?

Here is a link to our logs. I checked a few various fights and his uptime on SS is between 30-50%, so thats obviously a note to discuss.

And btw, the weapon enchant is colossus hands down ?

Thanks again..

He should be going for as much haste as possible and not any form of parry/dodge through gems. Those Fine Vermillion Onyx need to go, especially when there is such a thing as a 160haste/160mastery gem for a red socket, if the gem bonus is worth it. He needs to up his expertise, myself and others would say to 15% but some say a couple of % lower but definitely no lower than about 12%. And yes, he should get Colossus - however, having heard that tank damage isn't too bad this tier, if his survival is ok but needs a bit of threat and maybe some more damage then Dancing Steel would be good - relying on a proc for threat is obviously not a good idea but hey he could get lucky. Rivers Song is definitely not the way to go about it.

The reason that mastery isn't necessarily isn't bad is because it'll reduce damage you take - as will haste - but haste grants you more damage which in 10mans can be very important. Honestly having a look at his logs, I was doing more damage in my 475 gear 3 months ago with haste, than he is in his in his higher gear last week.

Edit - Firefly beat me to it because he is a better paladin.. And he can type like a motherfucker because I was making a cup of tea

If you want to tl;dr, both mine and his posts say the same thing so either will do.

Hmm I am honestly curious.
What do you think about the 2pc bonus on Tier 15 and how do you think it's going to impact us for the rest of the tier?

Situational at best. Not really that strong. Nice to have but not really necessary. There is not going to be a fight where you are gonna think
"Damn, if I only had my 2p..."

I probably won't even get it to be honest. Maybe very very late in the tier. Not a fan at all of it.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Situational at best. Not really that strong. Nice to have but not really necessary. There is not going to be a fight where you are gonna think
"Damn, if I only had my 2p..."

I probably won't even get it to be honest. Maybe very very late in the tier. Not a fan at all of it.

No point even discussing the 4pc, especially in 10mans from what I've heard so far about damage taken. Maybe in some 25man heroics situationally but... losing all that haste... It comes down to whether or not the haste lost would create more HP than the set bonus. Not sure anyone even bothered to do the maths because even from the look of it, it was disinteresting and undesirable.

Seriously I want the setbonuses back where our CS/SHOTR would do more damage

Situational at best. Not really that strong. Nice to have but not really necessary. There is not going to be a fight where you are gonna think
"Damn, if I only had my 2p..."

I probably won't even get it to be honest. Maybe very very late in the tier. Not a fan at all of it.

I think the helmet and shoulders have decent stats so you might as well get the 2set bonus. The retribution chest is awesome, the third (I think) boss drops pants with haste and a metric ton of expertise otherwise there are the pants from Horridon with haste+mastery, there are gloves with hit+haste a couple of bosses in, too.

I used to have a prot/holydin back in cata, but have since swapped over to brewmaster. Once I caught up in ilvl to whoever my co tank was (have had both dk & prot pally, there has always been an issue of threat on tank swap fights. We try to abusing hand of salv and bop when possible but a good keg smash crit and its back to me. My current co tank is a prot pally and he struggles mightily once that salv has run out.

I think his stat priority is a bit muddled at best. He sometimes swaps between mastery/stam trinkets depending on the fight but I hear from the healers that they'd rather be healing me than him. It's my understanding from reading the guide that mastery is better at keeping damage intake smooth, but haste also does well too ?

We've only gotten a few bosses in so far, on ToT and he doesn't have as much XP raiding in general as I do. He struggles in general to grab AOE threat on mobs, so despite him being the better choice for bat tanking, I'll probably have to do it until he's able to figure it out.

I guess what I'm asking for is, what should he be going for? Is he doing okay on his stat reforges/gems?

Thanks in advance.

looking at logs he just doesn't use his abilities a lot. 24 judgments over a 4:30 fight is about half of what he should have been able to get off, same with crusader strike. for another example about how little he uses his abilities: horridon was 10:30 and he only used 6 more crusader strikes and 10 more hammers. His ability usage is absolutely miserable.

his gear/expertise aren't the issue. You said he was just inexperienced and I'm just guessing he's way overwhelmed in this raiding environment, there's a lot of shit to do this tier as a tank and too much for him to focus on at once.

Seriously, his main issue is his not hitting his buttons, regardless of his stat choices.

No point even discussing the 4pc, especially in 10mans from what I've heard so far about damage taken. Maybe in some 25man heroics situationally but... losing all that haste... It comes down to whether or not the haste lost would create more HP than the set bonus. Not sure anyone even bothered to do the maths because even from the look of it, it was disinteresting and undesirable.

Seriously I want the setbonuses back where our CS/SHOTR would do more damage

Anyone opting for 4p should have been wearing PvP retri 4p last tier.

Everytime I hear someone talk positively about the prot 4p I just shake my head and think that they probably did not use last tiers pvp set. Which was basically the same thing, only 100x better.

You are trading stats for HoPo regeneration.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 05:56 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Butler Log

I think the helmet and shoulders have decent stats so you might as well get the 2set bonus. The retribution chest is awesome, the third (I think) boss drops pants with haste and a metric ton of expertise otherwise there are the pants from Horridon with haste+mastery, there are gloves with hit+haste a couple of bosses in, too.

Yeah, the thing is, the 2p is not strong enough for me to take tier pieces from someone else.
I gotta be "lucky" enough that nobody else in the conqueror mark need the helmet and shoulder, only then, and that is a big only, would I consider it. Still would rather have, say, heroic off piece than a normal tier piece.

Basically, if I get 2p, I get it, not gonna aim for it. If I get higher ilvl off piece than I will probably prefer that over the 2p for most fights

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 06:08 PM ----------

Originally Posted by youlowgee

about WoL

@Wontonheroe

Like this guy said, his ability usage is very low.
I compared your horridon log to mine.

Now, your kill time is 1 minute longer than ours, but I got a lot more haste. So it almost balance out. I should have gotten a few more spells than him. ( By a few I expect about 20-30 more Judgements because I use SW and 5-15 more of the other spells

Basically, yes, I have more haste, but the difference in spells used is HUGE, considering that our fight was only 9 minutes 30 and yours was 10:55

He needs to learn his rotation better.

Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-17 at 05:08 PM.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

I didn't have time to check spell usage because I'm doing coursework but yeah, there's no reason to not use another spell the millisecond that the GCD finishes. Really if he's going more than half a second wait each time, he may think that's fast (it's not) but now imagine how much it adds up when your fight is 600 seconds long. You're only getting 2 thirds of what you should be.

Find out if he's a clicker, watch if he keyboard turns, and make him read this guide because you telling him what to do, whilst admirable and definitely helpful, he might not understand things (he'll say he does) and you'll have to repeat this every month or so and it'll piss both you and him off. Make him do his own research, even if you have to send him the links, that's still fine. And don't you dare let him read Noxxic, it's not as bad as it used to be but myself and others still have a phobia of that place.

He used somewhere between 200-230 globals, depending a bit on how he used his HW, glyphed AS or not, consecration etc.
In a fight that he can easily use 400+ globals.

So basically, he used one spell every 3 seconds instead of every 1.5 seconds. That is something that he needs to work on.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Im not sure if horridon is a good example of a fight, since we were having some issues with people being bad on the double swipe, so he'd tank horridon away outranging the charge onto a raider. Usually it would hit the 1 healer with him. I think maybe his action was too far away for my combatlog to catch it.

Im not sure if horridon is a good example of a fight, since we were having some issues with people being bad on the double swipe, so he'd tank horridon away outranging the charge onto a raider. Usually it would hit the 1 healer with him. I think maybe his action was too far away for my combatlog to catch it.

I was using jin'rokh as an example, and his skill usage was the same. I even shaved off about 30 seconds on the napkin math to account for him being thrown/stunned. His skill usage was about 50% what it should be. That is without a doubt the reason for his low threat generation.

(I did the math for how many abilities he could use over a 4 minute fight with a 4.5 second [0 haste build] CD on CS/Judgment, his usage was actually <50%)

Just had Ji-Kun use Talon Rake on my Ghost Iron Dragonling! Clearly best trinket. Both me and the other tank busrt out in laugh!

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

Ji-Kun will perform the Talon Rake on the closest target in melee range if the current tank is out of melee range.

Yeah, figured that, but still was hillarious.

Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.