"While religions tell us next to nothing useful or true about the universe, they do tell us an enormous amount - perhaps an embarrassing amount - about ourselves, about what we value, fear and lust after." Iain M Banks

I agree with earmuffs on this one, if you move to one new country isn't it logical that you will learn the basic language and some history and culture and that you will accept that new culture as your new country's culture? If you want to change things to be like in your old country, then why in the world did you ever move from there? You can always go back to your parents place if you do not like your new house.

You know what bothers me? The hypocrisy. Most of the people are some sort of racists, they do not like these new incomers, they like their country as it is, or as it was, yet their leaders are pushing the tolerance, they are pushing all sorts of "freedoms" and in the end it looks like the minority is controlling the majority, just because if you say anything against a minority you are labelled as a racist, no matter how valid your info and conclusions are. And then out of fear to not sound racist people are afraid to speak up, so the tensions rise until one day they blow up. BOOOM! There goes the neighbourhood!

I hate these (anti)racist exaggerations, it only makes things worse and it removes people freedoms, specially the freedom of speech.

I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.-Hunter S. Thompson

This is one of my pet peeves. It seems so simple that in order to have a cohesive society we must, at the very least, be able to understand each other. There are billions of dollars wasted each year in this country, simply because people who come to live here, are not required, within a certain length of time, to learn the Engish language. I have seen countless times where hospitals are required to have translation services available, and when reading the History and Physicals of the patient involved, it says something like "patient not an English speaker, seen with translator", followed with, "has lived here for twenty years". In fact many go to their physicians, who sign their "waiver", becasue they are afraid if they refuse, they will walk away, and go to a different provider. The LAWS need to be made VERY tight, so NO MD can sign the waiver, so the system is not abused, and the billions spent on translation services can be re-direected, to something productive, and "laziness" is not rerwarded. This is JUST CRAZY. There are all kinds of opportunities, and places where Engish is taught, in every community. http://www.usenglish.org/view/301

Insufferable know-it-all.
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche

Speaking of hypocrisy, how about memory?
Where do all these immigrants with very different cultures come from?
Former colonies, yes? Parts of the glorious British Empire, and parts of the not-quit-so-glorious Dutch empire.
Africa and Asia didn't come to Europe until long after Europe went to Africa and Asia, made a mess of the landscape, left a trail of hatred, misery and unworkable frontiers behind... but never stopped expropriating the resources, exploiting the workers and unloading their surplus weapons.
As for Canada and the US, how did they become countries in the first place, and what gives them any claim on a distinct culture to which later incomers should adapt?

My grandfather came to America from Germany. He did cabinetry work on the ship to pay for his passage. He had an American sponsor and a trade, as was required. He learned English...reading and writing. He designed and helped to build barns in Eastern Iowa then met and married my grandmother and took over her family farm. He earned a decent living, paid his taxes and was proud to have become a citizen. I have the paperwork including the passenger list on the ship all the way through Ellis Island and his citizenship papers.

It chaps me when I have to press one for English. If you want to move to another country and take advantage of the benefits there...then do what you have to do to be part of the country and the culture.

(21-05-2012 08:04 AM)Peterkin Wrote: Speaking of hypocrisy, how about memory?
Where do all these immigrants with very different cultures come from?
Former colonies, yes? Parts of the glorious British Empire, and parts of the not-quite-so-glorious Dutch empire.
Africa and Asia didn't come to Europe until long after Europe went to Africa and Asia, made a mess of the landscape, left a trail of hatred, misery and unworkable frontiers behind... but never stopped expropriating the resources, exploiting the workers and unloading their surplus weapons.
As for Canada and the US, how did they become countries in the first place, and what gives them any claim on a distinct culture to which later incomers should adapt?

There must be many motivations for the immigrations. Perhaps over-simplifying those multiple motivations is not as helpful, as actually looking at the reasons. (They must be myriad). Are there studies on the subject ?

Your point about "distinct culture" is very well taken, and insightful. The long process of historical "separation", is a huge topic, maybe for another time ? The question at hand, seems to me to be more of one of "superficial" adaptation, and letting go of "special favors for special groups". It seems not unreasonable to ask for some general "adaptations", for example, "face covering" burqas seems totally unsafe, and unreasonable to me, considering the present state of technology. (ie it's not about "discrimination", it about safety). Your thought ?

"The new integration policy will place more demands on immigrants. For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants to ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law."

"The government will also stop offering special subsidies for Muslim immigrants because, according to Donner, “it is not the government’s job to integrate immigrants.” The government will introduce new legislation that outlaws forced marriages and will also impose tougher measures against Muslim immigrants who lower their chances of employment by the way they dress. More specifically, the government will impose a ban on face-covering Islamic burqas as of January 1, 2013."

Insufferable know-it-all.
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche

A mesh of cultures is what makes Canada a nice place to be. I agree there should be rules set in place for anyone coming here. One being your religious law does not take precedence over our laws. I don't care if you learn English, because honestly most native Canadians of four or more generations can't speak or write it well anyways. But I think if you can't speak English to a passable degree, you shouldn't expect to find a job or anything that requires English to be spoken or read, or written.
Certain things must go to the majority for society to move forward, instead of being so focused on the individual. One of those is language expectations. Canada is a majority English speaking country, therefore it should be mandatory for employment in the majority of districts. Though I'm sure exceptions to the rule exist, such as in Vancouver there is an area referred to as Chinatown. it's not a racist term, the area is just majority Chinese and everything is primarily written in various Chinese languages.

I agree that immigrants come to countries like Canada and America for certain reasons, and will occasionally forget why they left. It would be nice if everyone who came here didn't try to bring with them the same problems that caused them to leave home in the first place. But that's your countries responsibility to uphold it's qualities even when others want to change them.

My only annoyance of late has been with expectations locally. A great portion of jobs out here in Abbotsford require applicants to be able to speak fluent Hindi. That's a crock of shit. The reason behind this is because there are many Hindus in the area that can't speak English at all. But the ratio in my opinion is not enough for this to be a mandatory expectation. It's not taught in school, which means you would either have to be Hindi already or take extra courses to achieve this, which makes a bias in the workforce towards Hindus.
If it's going to become mandatory even though the numbers don't favor Hindi speakers, then it should be taught in public school instead of french, which no one speaks here. It's insane to me though that the minority voice gets the favor in this issue though, as it makes it very difficult for English speaking Canadians to find work just out of school, but makes the workforce favorable to Hindu kids just out of school. It should work the opposite just because there are more English speaking people in Abbotsford and the entirety of the newer Hindu generations speak English already. It's totally backwards and inefficient.

I've written too much and can't remember what point I was making or what OP was about.... so bye.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison