Normal modes don't mean anything. Guilds wipe on purpose in normal modes just to get some practise runs in for heroic. IMO Exodus are not in the same league as Blood Legion. People may hate on Blood legion but at the end of the day they have consistently been in the top 10 since well before Paragon, Method and Stars were on the scene.

*Edit* I didn't know Premo disbanded.

Also I have Nihilum in there because they are a legendary guild who I personally want to do well. At the end of the day Kungen/Nihilum has the most world first kills of all time. I know they probably won't even make top 50 this tier but it would be nice to have a new major player on the scene.

And exodus hasn't? last time I checked exodus has been basically top 5ish US every tier they have raided since BC. including US #1 for every end boss in ICC outside LK. BL maybe the favorite but to not even put the US #2 25 guild last tier Even though they had to raid the first 2 weeks as a 10 man and lose out on all that extra gear on the list is amazingly off. Especially since some of those guilds you have on there Are in alot worse place than exodus atm. Vodka lost alot at the end of cata, premo disbanded, FTH lost like half the roster to SWTOR not sure if they came back or not. Not bashing your picks up there or anything but I hate people that just kiss BL ass like there the kings of the US there good dont get me wrong. But they have always been just short of world class in DS alot of better guilds faltered. If they can repeat it ill give them there props. Winning a race that came down to who had the most geared alt mages on there roster Is not that race.

And exodus hasn't? last time I checked exodus has been basically top 5ish US every tier they have raided since BC. including US #1 for every end boss in ICC outside LK. BL maybe the favorite but to not even put the US #2 25 guild last tier Even though they had to raid the first 2 weeks as a 10 man and lose out on all that extra gear on the list is amazingly off. Especially since some of those guilds you have on there Are in alot worse place than exodus atm. Vodka lost alot at the end of cata, premo disbanded, FTH lost like half the roster to SWTOR not sure if they came back or not. Not bashing your picks up there or anything but I hate people that just kiss BL ass like there the kings of the US there good dont get me wrong. But they have always been just short of world class in DS alot of better guilds faltered. If they can repeat it ill give them there props. Winning a race that came down to who had the most geared alt mages on there roster Is not that race.

Not to cause offence to Exodus or US players, but being ranked in the top 5 US guilds doesn't mean anything. It is a known fact (Again, I speak the truth based on facts) that the EU guilds are better at progression raiding. Infact the #5 ranked US guild in T13 was only ranked 40th in the world.

In my opinion Exodus, who are undoubtedly a good guild, are not good enough to make a serious impact on the race. Also taking into account that Exodus, who had a whole gear reset over Paragon and Method in T13, couldn't even finish ahead of those guilds with a huge gear advantage. So how do you expect them to come anywhere near the top Euro guilds this Tier when everyone has an equal start.

You know nothing. Not flaming just telling it like it is.

Firstly, Paragon the underdogs? If anything they are stronger as they dont have to put up with raiding 25 man.

Blood Legion as a favourite? Lol. They have never had a single world first. They arent anything more than a realm first guild.

Envy is basically Ensidia without Kungen? Envy made their name a long time and are a strong very hardcore guild in their own right.

Nihilum? Im sorry, have you seen Kungens stream? Wiping for days on normal modes, still trying to get a decent roster with HM's knocking on the door they are anything but a world first guild.

From what I can see is that you have based everything off of nothing, watching twitch.tv doesnt make you an expert on a world first race.

1. Paragon have gone through a major roster change. They are either HUGE favorites or underdogs.

2. You are not giving Blood Legion the credit they deserve. They are the best of the US by a country mile and in my opinion are just as good as Method.

3. I am fully aware of Envys history. However Ensidia were a far superior guild to Envy, thats a fact, So basically the guild is Ensidia without Kungen.

4. I know Nihilum don't have a chance at world first. However it is disrespectful not to give them a mention seeing as they are the best guild of all time in terms of progression and world first kills.

If 25 man encounters aren't tuned quite a bit easier than 10 man, Paragon will most likely get world first, simply because they probably have the best 10 player team overall. Their 25 man team was extremely strong for sure, but if you take the best 10 out of those (who might or might not be in that 10 man team now) and let them compete against other 10 man guilds and against other 25 man teams (which in terms of overall performance will never touch the top 10 of Paragon), Paragon will win hands down.
Time will tell if it's really Paragons top 10 playing this tier tho.

Oh and don't forget, most likely the most important world first will be Sha of Fear, as the final raid boss, which is atleast 1 month away from now (given they would clear everything the first week heroics unlock), and not everyone will have as much time for all those weeks, RL issues, jobs and the like.

Due to the gated layout of T14, this race will be vastly different from any other so far.

I guess it's like football. You have to be specially interested to form such opinion of them all. I am sure if we get someone else with a different favourite, we'll get a completely different "review" of each guild.

4. I know Nihilum don't have a chance at world first. However it is disrespectful not to give them a mention seeing as they are the best guild of all time in terms of progression and world first kills.

Always no matter even if the fight is tuned to favor 25 man. Why? Because finding 25 good players is so much harder than 10. And to communicate boss fights between 25 people is way harder. Thus it will always considered its superior.

It doesn't make sense to mix 10 and 25 man guilds since these are completely different things. "World first" is a meaningless concept in the current game, only "World first 25 man" and "World first 10 man" make sense.

I mean, from a "fan" stand point, I'm rooting for Blood Legion, just because I'm a US player. Honestly of Raiding guilds (I'm way more in to PvP players with rankings and stuff), I'm a biggest fan of 'Months Behind' on I think Eradar. They're not a top 10 guild but I follow them for personal reasons. Anyway, From a "WoW" Perspective I'd like to see Method up there for sure. I think Kin Raiders are tight, even if their Spine kill was psuedo-rigged with mages. I like Vodka too.

It doesn't make sense to mix 10 and 25 man guilds since these are completely different things. "World first" is a meaningless concept in the current game, only "World first 25 man" and "World first 10 man" make sense.

In a world where everything is beta tested to its limits what does the race even mean?

Give me vanilla raiding where shit is just released and we have to figure out everything without a dungeon journal or having months to see everything.

This time round in MOP, the China realm is just 1 week behind the rest of the world. If there are any tough bosses that requires many hours of attempts (such as Yogg-0), then they may stand a chance in the world first race.

Note: STARS is playing on TW server for MOP, which are 2 days behind US in term of raid week.

Always no matter even if the fight is tuned to favor 25 man. Why? Because finding 25 good players is so much harder than 10. And to communicate boss fights between 25 people is way harder. Thus it will always considered its superior.

QFT
A truth that will be burried ofc under tons of 10 man advocates, in case a 10 man clear the tier faster than anybody else.
In short, they are two different races, since we re talking about two different modes.

Blizzard themselves talked about "offering 2 different raiding experiences".
If they 're different they re not the same (wondering how so many and for so long can't see and aknowledge this obvious truth).
Hope that they will at last seperate the achievements to put an end to this pointless discussion.
I mean they are "offering two different sizes for two different raiding experiences" but they re treating them for 2 years as the SAME, and at the same moment they designed a system that allows you to experience either the one, or the other!

It is the definition of paradox!

But then again, we are talking about a system that was designed to offer "an easier aproach to end game" for all.
As such, pretending that they are the same, is not so outrageously uncomprehentable.
What it is outrageous with this system, is that it encourages the truth to be twisted, and it has been twisted, systematically, for more than 2 years now, ever since the changes have been announced, back in the summer of 2010.

On the matter, i was able to see that KIN, Method, Blood Legion and Stars were able to maintain their roster. As such, in my opinion, they re the favorites for the 25 man world first.
I would add Envy next to them, but with Kungen back in the game, i have a big question about the stability of their raiding team regarding the members of ex Ensidia.
Even without them though, they should be a strong outsider.
Nihilum if they manage to form a competitive team in the end, wont stand a chance for the current tier. Maybe we will have to consider them from tier 15 and further though. I have strong belief that Kungen's managerial skill and popularity can attract some of the greatest players in this game to join his team. It is left to be seen though if he means business .

For the 10 man, 2 ex 25 man guilds Paragon and In Extremis (In Extremis was world 4rth ICC 25 heroic team) are the undisputed favorites for the world first!