An ever-expanding conversation for those living beyond religious performance

Oct 17, 2014

Angel Feathers Redux (#456)

Brad wants to weigh on on Wayne's earlier comments about "Treasure Hunts, Angel Feathers, and Sozos". So the first part of this podcast refocuses on the supernatural and how we distinguish between real moments of God's moving and contrived ones perpetuated by group dynamics and the power of suggestion. What happens when we divorce the supernatural from a growing relationship with Jesus and lead people to believe that his power is in their control? They also talk about the Seven Mountains of Influence and how we are warped by old creation priorities even as we are being invited to live in a new creation. This is the second installment of a three part conversation with Brad that will finish next week.

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Love Brad’s input, especially his experience in India. Why is it that we look for signs? The bulk of the answer in my opinion is miraculous takes away the need for relationship, patience, and steadfastness. Jesus called folks looking for a sign a “perverse generation.” Could Jesus have meant by “greater works than these” that we would see heart change in people before our eyes – that the heart and mind of a man could change and be replaced with His heart? I don’t deny the power of God and His hand choosing to intervene on His terms to do the miraculous… Meanwhile, I’m starting the scaffolding movement…

I agree with Brad that whilst I love your heart Wayne I reacted to your Angel Feathers podcast as it felt that there was a brush stroke criticism of anyone who was in any way pursuing the supernatural. I am pursuing the supernatural but as Brad says I am not fixated on it. As far as the Bethel School of Supernatural is concerned I have attended an equivalent thing in the UK and the point is not to teach techniques but to encourage an understanding of our identity in God and to live life to the full in Him expressing His body on the earth and ministering His love to those we engage with in the way the is appropriate to each individual. I am part of a house church in Romford in the UK and I struggle with the structure of Bethel, as I struggle with the structure of many churches, but I don’t struggle with their heart which is basically to know God more and to understand His heart. Miracles and the supernatural are for today but.we are fixed on a person not a system or a method. Bless you Wayne and Brad.

I have very fine brushes here. If people took what I said and applied it wholesale to Bethel, then they would think I have a broad one. I didn’t do that. I was talking about the difference between contrived supernatural manifestations and real ones. That’s all. I never mentioned Bethel, nor did I condemn all that they are doing. I don’t know what they are doing. I’ve never been there. But when I’m with people influenced by similar things and their heart is more for the supernatural than it is for the love of Jesus, I think it needs talking about. That doesn’t negate that there are others influenced by the same stream who have a heart for Jesus and see the supernatural as a fruit of that. Maybe I wasn’t as clear about that as I wanted to be, but the comments were about the abuse of something, not the something itself when it is not abused.

Why do we miss out on the real supernatural, just waking up and taking a breath, the sun rising and setting Jesus says an evil and perverse generation seeks after signs. I dont need to see a healing or some kind of emotional forced or taught experience(They actually have a school to teach people how to experience what?) After reading the shack I had this incredible desire to experience what Mack got to experiencing, but I was able to separate fact from fiction. If Gods creation is not supernatural enough than maybe I am missing something.

Aren’t there two ways to pursue ‘supernatural’? I think of Eve in the garden of evil and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. ‘ye shall be as gods’ type searching. Then there is the Philippians 4:6-7 approach: ” Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”

It is about who we trust, not what we believe. Belief is chosen agreement with thoughts like believing certain propositions about God, who he is and what he is like. Trust is a choice to actively live in relationship with the one we believe in.

So often when God moves or works in a certain way the temptation is to believe in that occurrence and to try to reproduce it because we believe (and in this case, rightly so) that it was God who “did it”. The problem arises when he chooses to “do things” or lead in alternate ways the next time. This requires a trust that is evidenced by listening to his direction and responding regardless of knowledge of his purposes. The communication that occurs inside of relationship with him necessitates observing the unfolding of his plan. The plan never becomes ours, it is his and he directs and leads, requiring faith that is trust based.

Attempts to package the work of God always requires an element of self reliance, and now the flesh has crept back in, supplanting life by the spirit. The mark is missed, but he is faithful when we are not, and relationship continues as he invites us to re-member (re-attach) ourselves to trust in him.

Tom thanks for the way you summarized some of the points Wayne and Brad were making. I’m going to take what you wrote as I head into my day and let Him gently bring that reality into whatever He is doing with me and for me today. Thanks.

Ahhhh, what a treat when Brad joins you Wayne. Love, love the conversation that flows between you.

Yes, I had to listen carefully to the podcast your did Wayne but in the end I heard what you were saying. It is about regimented man stuff as opposed to God whispered direction that you were discussing an it is what you and Brad concluded in today’s discussion.

What was beautiful is that the way you and Brad discuss things, it is like you cover all the facets especially with the pertinent questions that are often asked of each other. Am I supposed to give a commentary and evaluation of your and Brad’s participation in the podcast? Or should I be responding to the content? Ahh well. Then I would say that I loved how the conversation moved along other lines once you had resolved the seeming conflict and I really look forward to the discussions hinted at in the rest of your conversation. Strength to both of you.

The “frustration & futility” versus “fulfillment & fruitful” thing has immensely helped me discern where God is working in my life! For the past several weeks, I’ve been so frustrated, because I felt God is calling me to different things, but I couldn’t see what he was trying to accomplish… I see now that I was making assumptions about what he was calling me to and trying to control the situation to achieve what I assumed God wanted. Now that I’ve asked myself in what am I fruitful and fulfilled, in what am I frustrated and futile, I can clearly see where God is guiding me now! My entire outlook on life has changed overnight! My life has Life again! Thanks so much for sharing that!

This is why I listen to all the old podcasts to get caught up with the modern one. This is a conversation that I needed to hear and the bells went off in my heart. It is not my job to build the church. I loved hearing that. It is my job (joy) to just love the person God put in front of me right now. That is freedom to really know and follow. I don’t have to do more than that. Thank you Wayne and Brad.