Okay guys. Almost all of you need a basic lecture on what makes an effective self defense round before we discuss further.

When these guys started marketing this round, I did some research and it seemed like there were accuracy and consistency issues, which is a no-go for me. It is going to be a trade off like any other ammo. Yes, you theoretically bullets split into three will give you a higher chance of a hit. Certainly it will not penetrate or expand as well as a single unit of an expanding bullet.

Also, wadcutter rounds aren't defined by whether they are jacketed or not. Wadcutter means a certain shape designed to cut clean holes in targets. Sometimes wadcutter unjacketed rounds work good as a SD round because they tend to penetrate and destroy things of different consistencies better than a round nose lead bullet.

First of all, nothing beats shot placement. Most practical handgun ammo is piss weak in stopping power compared to any long gun in centerfire calibers. That includes .45ACP. It isn't going to 'send the guy flying' or anything like that. Most important thing is to make your hits to instantly incapacitate. Ideally, on the central nervous system, and less idealy on lethal hit areas like heart and lungs. That being said, you should not skimp on the ammo simply because shot placement. You might miss the ideal areas, you might make a hit, and lastly even if you make a hit you still want the bullet to do maximum damage.

Also remember the human body is a 3D object and threats will not be presented to you in a 2D fashion, like a paper target. Basically you need penetration and energy transfer.

Sorry, I was typing up a huge long article on basics of self defense ammunition, but you guys should just do your own research.

In the end, I am sticking to well tested high performance jacketed, bonded hollowpoints. For me that would be 124gr +p 9mm. Speer gold dot is my favorite.

I totally wrote an article on terminal ballistics vis a vis ammo types, ya know.

And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

Upon further consideration, I have another concern about this ammo: legal liability. The state I live in is already very unfriendly to the 2nd Amendment. I do not want the type of ammo I use to be an impetus for the State to try to imprison or beggar me. It's bad enough that I have a legal obligation to attempt to escape my home prior to defending it. Def. sticking with the speer gold dots for SD (until I get my .300blk build done, that is), but will still probably pick some of this ammo up to use, Gallagher-style.

"No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

Upon further consideration, I have another concern about this ammo: legal liability.

Beat me to it. As a civilian, irrespective of how effective these things are or aren't, there is no way I would ever consider carrying them around. As dim as the average person, including judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys and jury members are about firearms, there isn't a slender chance that they would be portrayed as anything but magic torture bombs in court.

Beat me to it. As a civilian, irrespective of how effective these things are or aren't, there is no way I would ever consider carrying them around. As dim as the average person, including judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys and jury members are about firearms, there isn't a slender chance that they would be portrayed as anything but magic torture bombs in court.

This is where my head starts to explode.

I accept that there are dimwits, propagandists, outright liars, and stupid-ass laws. But, I wouldn't NOT use these just because I fear that I might lose in court, especially if they prove to be more effective, and double-especially if they prove to be both more effective and less- or non-lethal.

Also, did anyone else notice that the non-lethal versions of these bullets appear to have disappeared totally from the website?

I accept that there are dimwits, propagandists, outright liars, and stupid-ass laws. But, I wouldn't NOT use these just because I fear that I might lose in court, especially if they prove to be more effective, and double-especially if they prove to be both more effective and less- or non-lethal.

When proven ammunition exists, that is similar enough to, say, law enforcement-issued ammunition to deflate a claim of excessive force, there is no reason to occur further risk of a wrongful conviction. In the unlikely and horrible event that I may be required to pull a trigger in self-defense, I aspire in my training to make that decision as unconflicted as possible. Ensuring my sidearm and ammunition, as well as my actions, are as legally defensible as possible remove a source of hesitation.

that is similar enough to, say, law enforcement-issued ammunition to deflate a claim of excessive force, there is no reason to occur further risk of a wrongful conviction.

Rubber bullets and tazers are deadly. You pull the trigger, you accept the risk that you may take someone's life. Period. If, either way, there's a likelihood that the target will end up dead, I don't think excessive force is a valid argument. But, I'm not a lawyer. YMMV.

Originally Posted by ermghoti

In the unlikely and horrible event that I may be required to pull a trigger in self-defense, I aspire in my training to make that decision as unconflicted as possible. Ensuring my sidearm and ammunition, as well as my actions, are as legally defensible as possible remove a source of hesitation.

In the unlikely event that I may be required to pull the trigger in defense of myself, my family, or just some innocent victim, I hope that I am able to completely and permanently stop the threat, and with no collateral damage. The consequences are the consequences, my morality is satisfied if I prevented unwarranted injury or death. If there exists an ammunition that is better at satisfying this outcome, I feel obliged to use it.