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Then I'd really like you to tell me how a mystery novel works according to you. What are the rules that something has to obey to be a mystery novel? And I'd really like you to give me your own definition...

.

Let's go then into what I've been talking about the whole time then. The ending. Think about it. Say you're reading a mystery novel or you follow a mystery manga series like Detective Conan. Say you've been following the case the entire way, and you've finally made it to the reveal. There's only one truth so you can either be right in your deduction or completely wrong in your deduction, but even if you're wrong it's a learning experience. You look back and you begin to notice the subtle things you missed the first time that would have given you that conclusion in the first place. So whether you're right or wrong it's exciting to see how far your own theories have come that once you've found out the one truth a person will be satisfied. I've never seen anyone get pissed because they were completely wrong at solving a mystery novel.

Now say you're as I said following the case the entire way. You make it to the big reveal. Your blood is pumping because this is it! Finally you're going to see what really happened and see how far you've come through your intense analysis of the story. There can only be one truth after all. So you turn the page... and the reveal is missing. Not only that it switches to the ending where the characters talk about how they couldn't believe it was this or that person or how this or that happen. Except they don't mention any names or actions or even places. Then the author comes out and says that the one truth does exist but expects you to find it. Except you can't because there's no telling what the one truth was because there's nothing definite or conclusive that could lead you to the same thought process of the author since the author made damn sure to keep the supposed one truth so far hidden that its practically impossible to get there.

You're probably gonna say that like Ryukishi wanted you could be harpy with the truth you thought up, but then that's just being delusional since if you just believe what you want to believe you won't push the author give up that one truth because not everyone is satisfied believing in their own conclusion. They want concrete answers so that the story as well as the mystery makes sense. Plus with telling people there is one truth and then telling people that the one truth isn't important all thats important is what you believe in. How does that not sound like a cop out?

In every mystery novel. Even if the one truth is subtle there is still always a concrete answer to everything that happened. Umineko does not have that. All it does is raise questions and not answer anything in regards to the real events surrounding Rokkenjima. It just comes off as downright lazy writing. A mystery isn't interesting at all if you can just believe whatever you want.

Battler: No, he can't be the culprit, I know George well and he would never do such a thing! Someone must have slipped the wrapper into his pocket!

Beatrice: There is only one piece of candy! George's pocket was sealed from the inside, but I could have slipped the piece of candy into his pocket using my magic wand!

Battler: It's useless! It's all useless!

*Dread of the grave -More frear-.ogg*

Battler: Yea it's all useless... YOUR CLAIM THAT IT IS MAGIC IS USELEEEEES!An unknown person X did it! Like... yes! Gretel appeared in EP4 at the air port! She did it! She stole the candy from Hideyoshi and put it into George's pocket! Then George was confused to have it and just thought that it was a little joke from his parents and he ate it!

Beatrice: Hooooooo...... But I already told you that it's sealed from the inside! No one could have put it in beside George himself!

Battler: Yea? Did you? Nah...

Beatrice: I did!

Battler: Sorry, I cannot read your "magic white text" sentences.

Beatrice: Wha-

Battler: You didn't say in red that it's really sealed!

Beatrice: Pah! And I expected something groundbreaking from you *ahaha.wav*Right now there are no holes anywhere at the pocket. If anyone tossed something in the regular opening of the pocket George would have noticed it!

Battler: Argh.... that's [don't stop thinking Battler!] .........
... Ahh that's right! Gretel made a hole into the pocket somehow and put the candy inside... Then she somehow sewed the hole up again! The method she used is a Devil's Proof! I refuse to explain! How is that, BEATRIIIIICHEEEE?

Beatrice: Wha--- What a ridiculous argument!!!! Grrrr.... this is not over yet! I pass for now, but at game end I will crush you! Try to defend your ridiculous logic then if you can, USHIROMIYA BATORAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

A mystery isn't interesting at all if you can just believe whatever you want.

But, the thing is that the "answer" to any mystery novel is whatever the author made up. In that sense whether the reader gets it right or wrong isn't so much a measure of their deductive capabilities using the facts from the story, but their ability to understand how the author's mind works. And it's this particular concept that RK07 is pushing with Umineko's metafictional format. Understanding Beatrice (the "gamemaster") herself is the true cornerstone to understanding the answers to her puzzles (see Battler's "chessboard thinking" and his final epiphany about Beatrice at the end of EP5; also see Williard's approach to solving Beatrice's mysteries and how he presents his conclusions).

Basically, Umineko isn't a Mystery, and never really was; it's metafiction about Mystery- specifically how the Mystery author interacts with the Mystery reader.

By the way, I loved Higurashi up through Tsumihoroboshi, but didn't find the final solution interesting at all. The villain was too obvious, and I didn't like the violation of Knox's second with Hanyuu. Actually, fan reactions like mine to Higurashi's ending probably had a profound influence on how RK07 did Umineko's ending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

GEORGE STOLE MARIA'S CANDY!!!

Pfft, it was so obvious. It's always George.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

An unknown person X did it! Like... yes! Gretel appeared in EP4 at the air port! She did it! She stole the candy from Hideyoshi and put it into George's pocket! Then George was confused to have it and just thought that it was a little joke from his parents and he ate it!

AuraTwilight's avatar comes to mind.

And nice job with the dialogue. Felt like I really was reading Umineko.

In a nutshell, do you lot think that Umineko isn't correctly solvable at all or that it has a solution, but it isn't the one presented in EP7? If the latter, do you agree with KnownNoMore (he uploaded two more videos after that one I posted)? (I don't know if this is too much of asking for a tl;dr)

We cannot solve it, because there are many things that have "pro-clues" and "contra-clues".

What we don't know:

We still don't know whether the "message bottles" were written before or after the incident or perhaps even during it.

We still don't know if Ikuko is just a random character that appeard in EP6 (Ikuko=RandomStranger theory) or if Yasu survived the incident and continued to live under the identity of Ikuko (Ikuko=Yasu theory).

We still don't know if Eva, or anyone else actually solved the Epitaph during those days.

We still don't know how Eva got into posession of the head's ring.

We don't know if magic- and/or metascenes are included in the forgeries of prime and the message bottles. And if they are, we are also not sure if all or only a certain part is included.

What we (kind of) reached a consensus about:

Erika did NOT reach R-Prime.

Piece!Battler from EP1-2 (and perhaps from EP3-4 also) is a projection of Yasu's memories of the Battler "from 6 years ago". The one we see in EP5 and EP6 is more like the Prime!Battler (but still only fictional). I didn't see anyone saying though, what exactly Meta!Battler is supposed to be yet (espacially in EP1+EP2).

Yukari in the EP8"???"-TP thinks about events in EP8, so it is implied that EP8 just happened in her head.

We know for sure that Banquet exists in Prime and it is implied that Alliance and End do too. We are not sure about Dawn though and even less about Requiem and Twilight, with the latter being very likely only in Ange's head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

AuraTwilight's avatar comes to mind.

Oh no! I violated Knox's 6th!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

And nice job with the dialogue. Felt like I really was reading Umineko.

Thanks. After Uberzaki started it, I couldn't help myself now I wonder if I am close to being a gamemaster

But, the thing is that the "answer" to any mystery novel is whatever the author made up. In that sense whether the reader gets it right or wrong isn't so much a measure of their deductive capabilities using the facts from the story, but their ability to understand how the author's mind works. And it's this particular concept that RK07 is pushing with Umineko's metafictional format. Understanding Beatrice (the "gamemaster") herself is the true cornerstone to understanding the answers to her puzzles (see Battler's "chessboard thinking" and his final epiphany about Beatrice at the end of EP5; also see Williard's approach to solving Beatrice's mysteries and how he presents his conclusions).

Basically, Umineko isn't a Mystery, and never really was; it's metafiction about Mystery- specifically how the Mystery author interacts with the Mystery reader.

By the way, I loved Higurashi up through Tsumihoroboshi, but didn't find the final solution interesting at all. The villain was too obvious, and I didn't like the violation of Knox's second with Hanyuu. Actually, fan reactions like mine to Higurashi's ending probably had a profound influence on how RK07 did Umineko's ending.

So I should stop thinking of it as a mystery novel then? I can see where that conclusion comes from. Though I still feel cheated since it had always felt like a mystery novel to me.

Actually for Higurashi I hadn't suspected the reveal at all until Minagoroshi hen, but then again I mostly followed the anime so I didn't get all the details of the visual novels, but after it was revealed to me I started to go back over Higurashi again in order to find the hints the author left so that I could have reached that conclusion too. It was fun because most of the things I never really would have thought of in the first place.

That's....the most wonderful piece of reasoning I've ever seen in the entire Umineko. Fatso wanted candy that bad....

It's fun how the first EPs are filled with small reccurring details like that.

No! That is wrong! How can you suspect one of the family members?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

An unknown person X did it! Like... yes! Gretel appeared in EP4 at the air port! She did it! She stole the candy from Hideyoshi and put it into George's pocket! Then George was confused to have it and just thought that it was a little joke from his parents and he ate it!

It was clearly that strange witch called GRETEL!

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Gretel made a hole into the pocket somehow and put the candy inside... Then she somehow sewed the hole up again! The method she used is a Devil's Proof! I refuse to explain!

And don't even TRY to say that Gretel is Ange! Things like time travel don't exist! She is just another of these fake witches, an illusion that takes on the form of Ange! I will not let myself be deceived!

Sounds interestingly jokular. Could you give more details on that one?

Ange is the Culprit.

Yes, you read me right. Ange. You see, everyone's always been an asshole to Ange. Eva treats her like a snivelling brat, the cousins forget her, her mother was just using her to get control of Rudolf, and Maria stopped being friends with her after their fight. The only person who was ever nice to her was Battler, and because of his sin (forgetting Beatrice, causing the cascade of events that caused him not to come for six years), Ange grew up without her brother.

She had to kill them all for the suffering she went through. Also she's kind of a petulant and evil brat.

She faked being sick, and then stowed away in the back of the boat, then skittered around the island doing the murders and/or Bomba. Shkanon is indeed actually necessary to the plot in order to cover up the number count. It's a troll.

So she kills everyone. She is infact the one who sent out the first two message bottles, forging Yasu's handwriting and set the bitch up (This is why Meta-Beatrice is both suicidal and wanting to hide the truth; she's a personification of this fictional martyrdom of Yasu, but she wants the truth to get to Battler).

It was infact ANGE who hijacked Beatrice's innocent game, so no one figured out the horrible truth in the script until it was too late. Eva managed to escape, knowing the horrid truth. Yasu killed herself, since her game allowed this opportunity and she felt at fault. Battler and Ange actually hilariously collided on the way out and both of them drifted to different shores with amnesia of varying degrees.

Eva, knowing the truth, found and raised Ange, and realizing that the girl was amnesiac and retained her sweet personality prior to becoming embittered, and seeing that she fabricated fond and warm memories of her family, decided not to tell her the truth, and raise her lovingly. But because this is the little girl who killed her precious family, resentment and hatred slipped out. Eva is a tremendously strong woman for being as genuinely loving as she was.

Ange grew up never realizing the truth, and always yearning for her dear brother, who rises above all the other victims in her heart for some reason she can't seem to figure out despite their limited interaction. She entertains fantasies of magic, and even gains the title of "Beatrice"....why is that?

And why...WHY, does she comment that "she did something terrible to Maria, and somehow I feel that it played a role in that tragedy"?

If Maria had been her friend still...the tragedy would not have come to pass.

Why can Ange, someone who wasn't on Rokkenjima, travel to 1986's Meta World?

She was there.

Why does Bern keep torturing Ange disproportionately?

Because she deserves it. It wasn't a witch who spoiled Ange's relationship with Eva, it was her own subconscious, personified as the heartless monster that dresses up as a character from Onii-chan's favorite novel. It's the same reason Ange can see and interact with Erika in 1998, and why Bern/Erika keep "taking Ange's side" in a sense.

It's why Battler decided the catbox should be closed, and Ange should move on with her life.

It's the truth so terrible that Ange rejects it at the very end, then decides to fake her death.

It's why Ange, prior to Battler getting through to her, decided that she could trade her life if she knew the truth.

Ange fucking did it, and her entire personal journey was her trying to reclaim that memory, not knowing it would destroy her. Battler only wished to spare her little sister. Just as Toya felt that the memories of Battler would destroy him, Battler felt the memories would destroy the good-hearted Ange.