MOYEN: The following is an unrehearsed interview with Mr. Ed Ford. Mr.

Ford served the 30th Senate district in the Kentucky General Assembly.He's currently the Cabinet Secretary for Governor Paul Patton. Theinterview was conducted for the Kentucky Legislature Oral HistoryProject as part of the University of Kentucky Oral History Program.The interview was conducted by Eric Moyen on September 5, 2003 inFrankfort, Kentucky. It is the first in a series of two interviews.[Pause in tape]--with Ed Ford who served as a Senator for District 301:00from 1978 to 1994.

FORD: Through 1994.

MOYEN: Through 1994. And is currently cabinet secretary for Governor

Paul Patton. Thanks for meeting with me today.

FORD: Thank you.

MOYEN: I appreciate it. Why don't we just start out by having you tell

me a little bit about your family background, where you're from, evenwhere your parents are from.

FORD: Okay, I'm actually a native of Alabama, a graduate of Auburn

University, and have a degree, have a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine.And my parents, my mother is a native of Alabama, my father wasa native of Maryland. But they married in Alabama, and all of ourfamily was raised there. I'm one of a family of four: three boys andone girl. My sister is the oldest. She's two years older than I am,2:00and she is a teacher, a retired teacher now. My next brother is aMethodist minister, now retired, seems like they all figured out howto retire, I haven't done that (Moyen laughs). And he's living inPowder Springs, Georgia. He's a graduate of Troy State University andEmory University, and was working on his, working on his doctorate inCalifornia. And my youngest brother, who's ten years my junior is aurologist, graduate of the University of Alabama, and he is practicingurology in Decatur, Alabama.

MOYEN: Okay. And where in Alabama did you grow up?

FORD: Montgomery County. I was born in Montgomery, but the Depression

wasn't very good to my family, and I was born in 1930, January 1, 1930,and we left Montgomery, my parents lost their home in post-Depression.3:00And we moved to Montgomery County, out in the county to a place calledRamer, R-A-M-E-R, in south Montgomery County, Alabama, and that's whereMontgomery County High School was located, of which I'm a graduate.And I believe we moved there in maybe '36, 1936, and needless to sayI got the most of my education, I believe that I was, I started thesecond grade at Ramer Elementary school and attended the first grade inMontgomery, Alabama.

MOYEN: That school that you attended, was it a one room or was it a

consolidated? Or what type of--

FORD: It was a, it was a big county high school. There were two high

schools, two public high schools in Montgomery County at that time:Sydney Lanier in Montgomery and then Montgomery County High School. Ofcourse, it was segregated.4:00

MOYEN: Right.

FORD: But actually it had a campus complex, I mean, there were twelve

grades there, but they were separated in buildings. The first sixgrades was an elementary school, and then there was a cafeteria. Thiscampus was probably sitting on maybe thirty, thrity acres or so. Veryupscale for its time, and a cafeteria in between the two buildings, andthen the high school was seventh through twelfth, junior high and highschool. It was built, it was brick, and had a courtyard, actually hada courtyard. It was an upscale school for its time back in the 30's.

MOYEN: Um-hm. A couple of questions. First, let me ask you, do you

remember moving in 1936 and your parents losing--

FORD: Yes I do. I very much do remember that. It was a, because we had

5:00to wait from the time we left Montgomery until our home was built atRamer, so we went to my mother's home place, which was in Pike County,Kentucky, that was just in the summer, they arranged to do it whereI wouldn't miss any school. And we lived on, with her brother, andhis two children for three months while our house was being completedin Ramer, Alabama. And I remember very distinctly, and all, all verypleasant memories.

MOYEN: So, you did like Pike County, or Kentucky, or what were your

thoughts?

FORD: Well, yeah, Pike County, Alabama is strictly rural, the county

seat is Troy, Troy State University is there now, it was Troy StateTeacher's College back then, and it's a small town, but it was strictlyagriculture. My family background, my daddy was at Georgia Tech, my6:00mother was a pianist, and I believe attended a year at the conservatoryin Cincinnati, and her two brothers, her three brothers, one was anengineer, and actually retired from the Core of Engineers, Army Core ofEngineers, and the other two were attorneys. So, you know, for thosetimes we were a pretty educated bunch of folks.

MOYEN: Sure. Definitely. You mentioned that the schools were

segregated. Is there anything about Jim Crow Alabama that specificallysticks out in your mind? Any examples of that that you, either todayyou think, "Well, that never crossed my mind, it's just the way itwas," or a time when you said, "Oh, this is, this is problematic."

FORD: Well, it, you know, the thing that impacted me as much as anything

is one of my best friends happened to be an Afro-American, and wecould only cultivate our friendship on a, where he, his father was a7:00tenant on a farm, and this particular farm happened to be owned by myvocational agriculture teacher, who was a very influential person inmy life, that's the way I got in veterinary medicine, and I worked forhim out on the farm also. And so the tenant's son and I were about thesame age, he was going to, I forget the name of the black school, whichwas also a very, a brick school, it was a modern building but it wastotally segregated it, and it kind of bothered me that the only way wecould have a relationship was on the farm, you know, come to town wewent different directions.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: And I remember that very distinctly. And I did not think, you

know, too much about the segregation, because that's just kind of theway it was, that's the way I grew up.

MOYEN: Sure. Sure. You just mentioned, (coughs) excuse me, a teacher

8:00of yours that influenced you. Could you tell me a little bit moreabout maybe that teacher, or other teachers who influenced you?

FORD: Well, yes--

MOYEN: Or adults in general?

FORD: Well, yeah. This particular teacher was named Earl M. Flemming.

He was a, uh, a vocational agriculture teacher, had a very, he liveda block up the street from me, and we had a good relationship, and hewas very influential in my life. Also, another person that was veryinfluential in my life was G. L. Harris who taught me physics andchemistry, and had a great impact on my life. I distinctly remembermy math teacher for all four years of high school, Louise Kelly, andmy sister, as I said, was two years older, and if I made a B, she hadmade an A, and I got reminded of it, "Well, you can do better becauseyour sister did." And that followed me all the way through school. Of9:00course, I was a little more active, extra-curricular than my sister,she committed herself to making A's, and I committed myself to playingfootball and doing other things, and having a big time, but I got byanyway.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

FORD: But those were the three teachers that had the greatest impact on

my life.

MOYEN: Okay. When, we're talking about impact, are you just talking

about learning, or maybe even is there anyone that impacted yourpolitical philosophy, or your vocational field which you chose to do?

FORD: Yeah, you know, I think because of my, the teachers I had in math,

science, and agriculture were, certainly were influential in my beingsuccessful in veterinary medicine. You know, veterinary medicine isone of the toughest professions to get into. People that get turneddown in veterinary medicine go to med school (laughs).

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

FORD: And so I, you know, I was very fortunate in that direction, but no

10:00one had any effect on my political life. It was a, my political lifeis almost an accident.

MOYEN: Okay. Let me ask you this. What about religion, church, was

there any of that in your childhood? FORD: Oh yeah. Yeah. As I said,my brother's a Methodist minister, and of course I'm a Methodist, andthat's one thing that was automatic in our family, you went to church.You went to Sunday School, you went to Church. We had, at my house,we sat down to Sunday dinner, we called it Sunday dinner, that wasat the lunch hour, and everybody stayed at the table until everyonewas completed. A kid didn't get up and run off like they do now. Wehad a very good family relationship. My father was a brilliant man,and required that we, if we had a question, he would point to theEncyclopedia Britannica and say, "The answer is easy there and it'sright over there." And I remember we sat around and listened to theradio together back in those days. Such things as "The $64 Dollar11:00Question," and we would be challenged and while the candidate, or thepeople were struggling for the answer, we would try to come up with theanswers too, and it was a family event, it was a, although we weren'ta warm, cozy family, we were a very close family too. I mean, myfather is not one who is going to hug and kiss you all the time, but heexpected you to respect him, and society, and to behave yourself and doright. So you know, it was good.

MOYEN: At that time you're talking about church, and then Sunday dinner

after church. Would you consider those, I mean obviously religiousgatherings, but was there any social aspect about that, that maybe thiswas the time for everyone to come see each other? Or--

FORD: No, not, not really, because we always, every meal was a family

12:00meal. I mean, the whole family sat down together, but I rememberSunday was more formal. Of course, we had a breakfast room, and that'swhere the rest of the meals were eaten, but on Sunday we'd go in thedining room with a white tablecloth, and we all sat there, and we, youhad to be dressed, and that was just the way it was.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: And believe me, I think it's pretty good training. I really do.

I wish that there was more of that today.

MOYEN: All right, why don't you tell me about going to Auburn, or at the

time was it Alabama Polytech?

FORD: It was Alabama Polytechnic Institute. I, between high school and

Auburn, I, uh, went in the Navy, I spent four years in the Navy, andof course graduated from high school in 1948, joined the Navy December13, 1948. I cannot tell you why. I knew I was going to college, butI wasn't ready, I needed to mature, and I joined the Navy for a three13:00year hitch, and the Korean War started, and I got extended a year. So,I spent four years in the Navy. I thought I was going to be a pilot,but my eyes let me down. I'm colorblind. I probably could pa--, couldhave passed two years before, two years after, but in 1949, I didn't,because we were between wars, and I did not have a college education.They were taking no cadets without a college education. Although Ihad kind of a commitment to go, to be a cadet, they had to find a wayto get rid of me.

But I went to Class A Radar school at Treasure Island, just out atSan Francisco. Treasure Island was built for the World's Fair backin the 30's, I believe, it's an artificial island and the Navy had a14:00base there. And we had a couple, three, what we call Class A schoolthere, mine was a radar, and I spent nine months there, great training,and that's where, again, my physics and my math paid off. But thenwe, the Korean War started, and after I left the radar school, I wasassigned to the amphibious forces, and assigned to an attack transport,which it was a ship that carried troops and had landing craft thatthey would, you know, storm the beaches. And so, you know, it didn'tmake any difference to me, and I remember when I, well, after I leftradar school, my next assignment was CIC school down at Point Loma,San Diego, California, and that was Combat Information Center. Andwhen I left CIC school, I caught the USS Henrico on its way to Hawaii,15:00I mean, I actually, they took me and my C bag and a boat, and we wentout and went up the gang plank, the ship was leaving the harbor. Ibarely made it. But it, you know, everything went fine, and then theKorean War started, and we were very much a part of that, and I, wewere shorthanded, all the military was when the Korean War started,I think there were only 30,000 Marines, and we were an assault attacktransport, and so therefore our job was to get the troops ashore. AsI say, we were shorthanded, so I volunteered, they say you should nevervolunteer for anything, I volunteered to be a voice radio operator inthe, you know, in the landing craft. And so I went into Inch'on, Koreain the fourth wave, and well, we got to Korea I believe in July, maybe16:00it was late July, and at Pusan, we were really getting kicked aroundby the North Koreans then, and I saw my first combat death there. Andthen we hit the beaches, it wasn't the beach, we invaded Inch'on, Koreaon September 15, 1950, and we were very successful, the US forces were,and we took all of Korea back within just a matter of almost weeks anddrove the North Koreans all the way up to the Yalu River, at the borderof Manchuria. But then the Chinese intervened, and it was a differentballgame. So, my next really experience was evacuating all of ourtroops from the Chosin Reservoir on the Yalu River, and at Hungnam on,17:00and I left Hungnam, I once again, was a voice radio operator for thebeach master, and I think there was fifteen of us, and we were the lastfolks to leave there, and our job was to coordinate the withdraw, andthis that and the other. And I believe it was Christmas Eve, 1950 whenwe left there, and so the entire war had turned around from Septemberwhen we started kicking butt until November, I mean December, well, inNovember they started kicking tail, and we actually made a strategicwithdraw as we called it, retreat, from Hungnam on Christmas Eve 1950,and there was a lot of frostbite, I believe we brought every Americandead and alive, we got them all out, and then, you know, when I wentback, came back to the states, and then went back again for the second18:00tour, but fighting had really slowed down by then. Then got dischargedin November, I believe of 1952, and enrolled in Auburn in the Springquarter, they were on the quarter system, in January of 1953, and veryfortunate, got all my pre-med and professional school done in fiveyears and three months.

MOYEN: Wow (laughs).

FORD: Yeah.

MOYEN: That's impressive. Let me ask you a couple of questions about

your time in the military and in Korea. What was it like for someonewho had grown up in the Depression-era South to go out to Californiain the late 40's in that time? What were, what were your thoughts?FORD: Well, it was a, it was very eye-opening for me. I had been toNew Orleans, Atlanta, a few places like that, but never that far away19:00from home. I went with a classmate, we joined the Navy together, wentthrough boot camp together, and as fate would have it, he was assignedto Treasure Island as a, to work in the post office, and I justhappened to be there going to school, so we were still together. Thathelped. It helped a lot, because I got very lonesome. Now you'retalking, I said something about joining the service to mature, you'retalking about maturing, my maturity began when I got to Korea. I meanI grew up in a hurry, I mean a real hurry, and most of us do that, youknow, are subjected to things like that, and, but the military was verygood for me, I mean, it was good for me. I needed it. And so I, youknow, looking back, I think it was the best move I could have made inmy life. I think if I had gone to Auburn right out of high school,I may not have been successful. I'm not sure, because I was prettysuccessful in radar school, but I just, I wasn't comfortable. I wasn't20:00ready to go.

MOYEN: Could you tell me a little more about your first, you mentioned

your first combat casualty that you witnessed, could you tell mea little more about your combat experiences? FORD: Well, my combatexperience is not all that great. Of course, we pulled in Pusan,Korea, and we held a five mile perimeter, and they had just aboutpushed us in the ocean, and we were bringing in reinforcements, andof course we were, I was standing on the, we were pulled up to apier, this big ship I was on, and we were unloading ammunition andgrenades and all that stuff, and, you know, with cranes, and they hadcommandeered a bunch of South Koreans to help unload this stuff and getit off the docks into various sundry places, and this one guy broke outof line with a case of grenades on his back, and they just shot him.

MOYEN: Hmm.

FORD: Didn't, I mean, told him to halt, he didn't, so they killed him.

at, but I didn't get hit, and I found out that the first and secondwaves don't get shot at, because you've laid down all this bombardment,and the enemy's dug in, but by the time the first and second and thirdwaves get on, when we went in, it'd been eight minutes, the waves hitat about two minutes apart, and by gosh, they'd come out of the holesand started shooting. And I was hearing on the radio, "No resistance,no resistance," and hell, we were all laughing, carrying on, all ofthe sudden it looked like somebody was dropping rocks out of the sideof this boat as we were barreling in, and all of the sudden you'd hearrat-a-tat-tat and then we figured out real quick (both laugh). It was,it was not, not fun.

MOYEN: Is there any way to describe the emotions or anxiety that you're

feeling at that point?

FORD: Yeah. I felt sorry for the other guys, you know, I remember we

22:00were in the board room with the, we made this invasion, it started at5:30 in the afternoon, we were in the board room about noon, and wehad this Don Winslow-type, he's a comic, Don Winslow was a comic bookcharacter in the Navy, was a Naval officer, and he was a, "Look toyour left, look to your right, one of you son of a bitches won't behere tomorrow." I felt sorry for both those guys (both laugh). So I, Imean, I'm serious, I, it never occurred to me that I wouldn't survive,and I think most people think that, you know.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

FORD: But, we didn't suffer very many casualties. It was not, those

guys didn't put up much of a fight. It's the Chinese who kicked butt.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: The North Koreans were not very good soldiers.

MOYEN: Can you tell me a little bit about that change in attitude or

morale when you mentioned, okay, we're doing really well, and then the23:00Chinese come and kick butt, how does that change the temperament, orthe attitude? FORD: It made us, we thought we were just super people,I mean it made, it brought us back to reality. I know it did me, andyou know, and I wondered, "Boy, where are we going? I mean, how's thisthing going to end? What's going to happen?" And of course, you'repraying you wouldn't have to use that big bomb again, and it, but itwas an eye-opening experience, because we had been, just had it ouraway, you know, from September until November, September, October,and of course winter set in, and it was fierce, and Chinese were muchbetter prepared for the winter than we were because that was theircountry. But it was just an eye opening experience to all of thesudden say, "Hey, we're vulnerable, you know, we can be whipped."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: And, but, of course, we were still fresh out of World War II where

24:00we had been kicked around and had come back, and so we always thoughtwe could, but it was an eye opening experience.

MOYEN: Was there a point there where you realized that the tide might

be turning?

FORD: You mean the second time around? MOYEN: Um-hm. Anything that--

FORD: Well, you know, when I left Hungnam, I believe we took R&R down

at Hong Kong, and then left there, went back to Japan, I don't think Iwent back to Korea until I had come back to the states, and you know,we would hear and read about it, but I can't identify when we turned itaround again. I just don't remember, because I wasn't involved.

MOYEN: Right. Right. What did you think when you heard about the

strategic withdraw that you were talking about? What were your thoughts?

FORD: Well, I was very concerned about it, because I knew what my role

25:00was going to be, and I, I'm a boy from South Alabama. Hell, we hadtwenty below zero up there not counting the wind factor (laughs), windchill. So I was, you know, and I didn't know how long I was going tohave to be on, whether I was going to be there four hours, four days,or four weeks. I think it was more like four weeks on the shore, Idon't remember exactly how long we were there, I know I got a littlefrostbite on my feet, and you know, I saw a lot of, lot of folks, andI guess the most emotional thing that affected me there is we had topile up all the ammunition and all the jeeps, and trucks and everythingon this pier, and we're going and have them detonated so we coulddestroy them so the enemy could not take advantage of that, and wehad all of these civilians, North Korean civilians, they were afraidof the Chinese too, and they were wanting to go with us, we took over26:00100,000 out on merchant ships or one thing or another, but there wasjust no more room. And we could not communicate with these people, orthey ignored us, telling them what was going to happen, and I know theydidn't get off that pier, and we blew that craft up. I still thinkabout that. That was bad. But that's war, people get hurt, but wecould not take, we actually had, I think it was fifteen of us and thebeach master, and we actually had, at gunpoint get in our boat, thelanding craft, to evacuate, hell, every, a hundred of them would havegot in there with us if we'd have let them and would have sunk the damnthing. And we had communicated with them through interpreters thatwe were going to blow their craft up, and that they had to clear thatarea, and they would not do it. And so somebody pressed the detonator.

armistice was signed, you know, in July of '53, and that's the reasonall this is so real to me, because I've been back through it, and wehad a big deal here in Frankfort.

MOYEN: And it's great to hear your story, that's good. Why don't you

tell me about your return home, you, did, how, go ahead.

FORD: Okay, I got discharged, and came from Honolulu in to San Diego,

and was discharged, came straight home, got there in November, wentto work for J. C. Penny and Company as a salesman over the Christmasholidays, and got married on December 21, 1953. And then of course28:00enrolled in Auburn in January, and I had the GI bill. I took a job inthe research lab, seventy-five cents an hour. My wife was a laboratorytechnician, and she went to work for the university.

MOYEN: How did you meet her?

FORD: Oh, in high school. You know, she was not from my high school,

our fathers knew each other, and she lived in another little town,and she was two years younger than me. And unfortunately the marriagedidn't work, we have three children, and, but it didn't work. But we,so we got married and went to college, and she was very instrumental inmy life, including helped putting me through school, and she consentedfor me to take, I came to Kentucky to intern when I left Auburn,to intern with Dr. D. L. Proctor, one of the world renowned equine29:00surgeons, and he offered me an opportunity to work with him after Icompleted the internship. And I took the job, and she agreed to it atthat time, and--

MOYEN: Was that in Lexington?

FORD: In Lexington, and then we moved, I worked for Proctor for a year--

[telephone rings]--that's all right. I worked for Proctor for [telephonerings]--well, that's my private line. [Pause in tape]. And so--

MOYEN: Go ahead.

FORD: Is it on? MOYEN: It's on.

FORD: Okay, so I wanted to, to start a practice, and I had a classmate

from Cynthiana who also wanted to go into practice, and he decided thatabout the worst thing a fellow could do is try to open a practice inhis own small hometown, because he would always be little Jack Porter,and so he encouraged me to go there, and he went to Lancaster and30:00opened a practice, or purchased a practice, and I went in and openeda brand new practice, and for nine years I was the sole practitioner,and it was tough, because you're on 24-7 when you're, in veterinarymedicine it seems like everything's an emergency, you know.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: And so we practiced over there, and after I got pretty well

established, my wife became very lonesome and homesick for Alabamaagain, and wanted me to leave. I couldn't, this was my career, and shehad consented to it. She left me two or three times with the children.We had three children, a girl and two boys, and she would, we wouldhave a disagreement and she would get in the car and take the threekids and run to Alabama, and then a week later be back. And once theyever do that once, it's never the same, and unfortunately we finallygot a divorce. And she remarried twice. First marriage was a real31:00disaster, and her second marriage was very good, this fellow was verygood with my kids, he's a retired Air Force fellow, and, but he diedof lung cancer. And we still have a very good relationship, she andI, we never, wasn't a bitter divorce, it was just a, things just wasn'tworking. I think I was divorced four years, and maybe five, and thenI remarried a lady with two sons, and as I say, my so--, first wife,second marriage didn't work out, it was a disaster, and so my daughter,she asked me could my daughter come and live with me, and I said yes.And my present wife had a son the same age as my daughter, they wereboth twelve. And then a little later she, my youngest son wanted to32:00come and live with us and go to school up here, and he did, and so weactually wound up raising the children because her marriage was justtotally unsuccessful, but then after she married Chief, as we call him,this fellow was a Chief Master Sergeant in the Air Force, well he wasvery good to my children, of course they would visit in the summer, andhe was very good. My current wife is a couple years older than I am,and she worked very hard to make me successful, and if there was anypolitical influence, it came from her.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: My political career, as such, is really weird. I was a busy

practitioner, had more on my plate than I could handle, but we wereactive. I was in the Rotary Club and various and sundry other things,things you do when you're trying to establish a practice, you get, try33:00to be as visible as you can, but back in those days it was unethical toadvertise; not so today (laughs). Every profession advertises today.But we were, we have a fairly good school system in Harrison County,I believe it's in the top twenty of the one hundred twenty-six schooldistricts as far as the testing and one thing or another goes, but itwas in an expansion mode at that time, and there was a huge renovationbeing done to the high school, and a huge 1,500 seat auditorium in ourlittle town, county of 15,000 people. So we were at a Christmas party,and the superintendent of schools was there, and so I started quizzinghim the necessity to spend all his money on this, on this auditorium,and we had a discussion for a few minutes, and he had had a pop or two,and so he said, "You know, you've got an awful lot of damn questions,"34:00said, "why don't you just run for the school board, and then maybe youcan find out a few things?" I didn't think much about it, and lo andbehold the next year, the fellow that had the school board seat in mydistrict chose not to run, and so I filed, and of course got elected,and so I got real active. I loved it.

MOYEN: Around what year was this? FORD: Nineteen seventy.

MOYEN: Okay.

FORD: I loved it. And the second year they elected me chairman, and

I stayed chairman until I went into the Senate. Got elected to theSenate in 1977 and I stayed in, on the school board until I was sworninto the Senate. And I got real active in the state association,school board association, and the national association, and I felt likeI was making a difference

FORD: And so not knowing, never having had an opponent, and so the 30th

Senatorial District had been, Harrison County had had that for twelveyears, Wilson Palmer had served three terms and then he got beat byTom Ward from Versailles. And Tom Ward was a young, aggressive, youngpolitician, and Tom won and beat Wilson Palmer by several hundredvotes, or maybe a thousand, I don't know, but he got this idea that hewas invincible and wanted to run for lieutenant governor. And that gothim in a lot of trouble, money wise and this, that, and the other. Andanyway, he was arrested for DUI, and a very great embarrassment to him.He was kind of a lay minister, and I don't know why, but he confessed36:00that he was an alcoholic, and he resigned from the Senate. So all ofthe sudden, here was another open seat, and so I knew Tom, and I gotinterested, and Wilson Palmer, well, I remember, the rumor got out thatI was going to run for this Senate seat, and Governor Carroll askedthat I come over and talk to him. And so I did, and we came over andhad a little chat, and he said, "I understand you need a job." I said,"No, I don't need a job. Got more than I can do right now." "Well, Iunderstand you're interested in this Senate thing," and I said, "yeah,I am, Governor, very interested," and he says, "Well, I don't believethat you need to do that." He says, "I've got another fellow I wantto be the Senator." And I said, "Who is that?" He said, "I want WilsonPalmer," I said, "Governor, he's a loser, he's already been beatenonce." And he said, "Well, he's going to be elected this time, becauseI'm going to get behind him," this, that, and the other. And, "What I37:00would like to do is form this task force on education, and I'd like foryou to chair that, and it'll pay $35,000 a year." I said, "Governor,I told you once before that I wasn't looking for a job." And he says,"So, you're determined to run." And I said, "Yes sir, I am." He says,"Well, I'm determined to elect Wilson Palmer." And I said, "Well,Governor, you better bring your lunch, because it's going to take youall day to do that." And we laughed and shook hands and left, I didn'tsee him again. So, I campaigned hard, I didn't know very much aboutcampaigning, but this, I decided to run a year before the election,and--

MOYEN: So, the election was in '77.

FORD: Uh, was in '77, right.

MOYEN: And you decided in '76?

FORD: Yeah, in '76 that I was going to run. And for some reason, of

course, they were having, back then, you know, we just had the, thebiennial sessions didn't have--38:00

MOYEN: Um-hm. Right.

FORD: or annual sessions, and so for some reason, Governor Carroll

did not call for a special election to fill that seat, so it remainedopen. And so I ran in the primary against Wilson Palmer. Didn't haveany general election, I think I've got, I got fifty-five percent ofthe vote, and he got forty-five, which was significant, you know, tenpercentage points.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Sure.

FORD: And he ran a good hard race, but he ran it the old fashioned

way, he had every courthouse for him, they were all against me. Ijust had ordinary people, but I had also had ever school board wasfor me in my district, and because I had been active in the schoolboard association, every veterinarian was for me, and of course I hadpracticed in Scott County, and Harrison County, and Nicholas County andBourbon County, where I had a farm, and my wife was a native of BourbonCounty. So you know, we had a little base to start with. Wilson didit the old fashioned way, counting on the other politicians to get39:00him elected. We went out and worked our tails off, went door to door,and I think I spent, I think that election might have cost me sevenor eight thousand dollars, I think three thousand of it was my ownmoney. But we were successful, and immediately after getting elected,well Governor Carroll put me on--oh, the night of the election, wewere having a party down at the old Harrison Hotel, and victory party,and it was noisy, and loud, and this, that, and the other, so thephone, somebody came and said, "Got a phone call for you," said, "thegovernor's on the phone." I said, "Yeah." And so I got on the phoneand I said, "Hello." He said, "Ed? This is Julian." I recognized hisvoice, it was him. I said, "Yes sir, Governor, what can I do for you?"He said, "Well, I just wanted to congratulate you," said, "you didexactly what you said." I said, "What'd I say?" He said, "You said youwas going to kick my butt and you did" (laughs). But he said, "I want40:00you to know, you're my senator now." I said, "Yes sir." And we remaingood friends today, and he was very, very good to me when I came toFrankfort, and involved me a lot as a freshman, especially with thebudget, because he thought that I understood the Minimum FoundationProgram, because he made a remark many times, says, "There's not buttwo people that understand Minimum Foundation funding program," that'sthe way we funded education, "that's me and you." Well, he did, Ididn't. But, I never did tell him I didn't. And so he would involveme, as a matter of fact, I had breakfast my freshman year several timesover at the mansion because he was involving me in the budget process,and at that time, elementary, secondary education was fifty percent ofthe general funded budget. So I got off to a pretty good start, andback in those days, the governor controlled the legislature, but he sawto it that I got on the Education Committee, where I served my entire41:00time. So it was a great experience, really. It really was. But,that's the way I got into politics, almost by accident. And as I tellpeople many times, if I had known then, what I know now, I would havenever run for the Senate, because there was no way I could get elected.I mean, there's just no way that you can get elected with the governoragainst you. But I was dumb, and didn't know much, so I did it anywayand got lucky again (Moyen laughs).

[End of Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

FORD: Governor Patton is on the board, and I'm his proxy, and so he can't

make the meeting on the 26th, and so I'm going down there for him.

MOYEN: This would be in Chapel Hill?

FORD: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's on the campus. I mean, it's a, it's

a very, Governor Hunt, if you know him, I mean, whatever he touches,42:00it works.

MOYEN: (Laughs), uh-huh.

FORD: And so I'll be going down there on the 25th.

MOYEN: Let me back up and ask you a few questions. What year was it

that you came to Kentucky from Alabama?

FORD: Nineteen fifty-eight.

MOYEN: Nineteen fifty-eight.

FORD: March 1958 to do a preceptorship as they, we call it an internship

now, they called it a preceptorship.

MOYEN: Okay.

FORD: And did that with Proctor. Went back and picked up my degree in

June, May or June from API, and that's, I said five years and threemonths, and I did not count my preceptorship--

MOYEN: Sure.

FORD: I left Auburn five years and three months after I enrolled, and

so, very successful, you know, things just worked out real well for me,to be able to get all my classes, and especially in pre-med, once youget in vet school, that's going to take four years. Supposed to takeyou a minimum of two to get in, and I got lucky.

MOYEN: Now, some of my history is a little fuzzy here. Even if you

43:00weren't planning on running for governor, were you taking note ofthings in Alabama at the time, and particularly the rise of GeorgeWallace, and that--

FORD: Yeah, I was, and I never was a Wallace fan, and Alabama politics

is like all politics, and I remember a fellow named Henderson thatwas running for governor one time, and my dad said he's the best man,but he'll never win. And I said, "Why is this?" "Because he's thebest man, and he's too damn honest." And that, you know, and Wallace,Governor Wallace, I didn't really approve of him. There was anothergovernor named, I saw his son, who has been governor of Alabama, amonth ago over in Indiana, "Big Jim" Folsom, James E. Folsom, and hewas a, you know, they, all ----------(??) to me. I had a different44:00perspective after I had been out of Alabama for four years in the Navy,and I came back, and it, you know, and some of the things that GeorgeWallace would say and some of the things big Jim Folsom would do, andall that kind of stuff, but--

MOYEN: Can you think of anything in particular that you just thought

this is just silly.

FORD: I'm trying to think of what Jim Folsom said, it was about graft:

"Too many hogs at the trough, but I'm the biggest hog," or somethingridiculous like that. I mean, you know, and that, that puts Alabamain a bad light for those kind of statements to get out, and of courseGeorge Wallace, you know, standing in the schoolhouse door, and thentrying, running Lurleen, his wife, you know, because he couldn'tsucceed himself again or something. It was kind of making a mockery ofpolitics, but I never associated that when I got to Kentucky, with whatwas happening in my life. But when I was growing up, I mean, it wasnot a, it was not an honorable profession in my opinion.45:00

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: But I had a, once I become one of them, I guess I (both laugh),

I ran as an outsider, you know, and you know, brand new face toFrankfort, a new philosophy, and not the old politician, not the oldcourthouse. And I remember when I decided not to run, I made thisstatement in jest, I said, "You know, I got up one morning and lookedin the mirror and I had become the enemy," you know, I had become oneof them, I'd been here so damned long. But I, I say that in jest, butI do believe you need new faces in politics. I don't think that youshould stay around forever, and I voluntarily left. It was just timeto go. And you do need to bring in fresh blood every once in a while.

MOYEN: You had mentioned that you and a classmate decided that you were

going to open up, or purchase these practices, as he did. At thattime, and you said he was from Cynthiana?

FORD: Um-hm.

MOYEN: Did UK and Auburn have that program that they have?

FORD: Oh yeah. Right. Yeah, he had been in my class at Auburn as a

University of Kentucky student, and came down there.

MOYEN: I know that that program exists, but do you know anything, I

don't know much more than that, about how it works, or why it developedthat way?

FORD: Oh yeah. Well, yeah, I happened to be on the Southern Regional

Education Board, and that program is funded through the SREB, andwhat happens, back when I went to Auburn, we had a relationship withKentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, and Florida. Four states. They eachhad ten slots, and then the rest was Alabamians. So I guess we had47:00thirty. I think there was about seventy something in my class, andwhen I started I think sixty-two of us graduated. But what it is isa regional approach where Kentucky pays so much per student, I thinkit's about, gosh, I don't remember, but several million dollars a yearnow, and then the Kentucky student enrolls at Auburn as an in-stateresident, doesn't have to pay out-of-state tuition, and the state ofKentucky makes up the difference. And the theory being that we don'tneed a veterinary school in every state. We also, through the SREB,we co-op with some optometrists, podiatry, dentistry, and medicine48:00with several of the, fifteen of the Southern Regional States, and it'sall funded through the SREB, Southern Regional Educational Board. Andso now Kentucky has thirty-four slots per year. So we have a hundredand maybe sixty-eight, so we have one hundred thirty, ever how manystudents at Auburn, it's costing Kentucky several million dollars ayear, but yet it's the best money we can spend, because it would costa hundred, 150 million dollars to build a vet school, and then youcould not staff it with the quality staff you need. You'll have toraid other campuses. And so it seems that Kentucky should have a vetschool, but it makes more sense not to, it really does.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, when you decided to come to Kentucky, did you, tell

me a little bit about that decision to come here, and you said you have49:00to stay with--

FORD: Okay, my plan was to open a practice with another practitioner,

who was a small animal practitioner in Montgomery, Alabama, and I wasgoing to do the equine, large animal, and some small animal, and, butwe were going to be in some kind of partnership arrangement. His namewas Jim Chamberlain. And I had every intent of coming back to Alabama,but I did not feel like that I was as well schooled and skilled atequine practice as I needed to be, because that's where I saw a greatpotential in Montgomery, Alabama, because the equine industry wasflourishing down there. So I came to Kentucky really to learn howto be an equine practitioner, and I selected the best that I couldfind, and he took me. And I had every intention of going back, and50:00my wife did not come up here with me when I did my preceptorship, butshe consented for me to accept this job, and we came, she came up withme. And we stayed there a year and then moved to Cynthiana in 1959,and bought a home, and you know, she helped me start a very successfulpractice, but then it just kind of fell apart.

MOYEN: Now, how quickly did you get involved with the school board?

FORD: Well, that was, I went there in 1959, and so eleven years before

I ran for the school board. And you know, I had children in school,and I was very interested, so forth and so on. Didn't mean to bean antagonist, of course the superintendent and I ended up being,and still are today, the very best of friends, but he thought I wasrunning to get rid of him, but I wasn't. He just told me I'd get moreinformation if I was on the inside, so I got inside (both laugh). Andit was a great experience.51:00

MOYEN: What issues did you find most frustrating, or most important, to

deal with with the schools once you began to really look closely?

FORD: Well, you know, dropouts have always been a real challenge, you

know, too many kids don't finish school, and curriculum is important,and sometimes, and I'm an athletic, was an athletic nut, but too muchemphasis is sometimes put on, on athletics. You need them, I mean,they're good. Kids need to be involved in extracurricular stuff. Iknow many examples of kids that would not have finished high schoolif it had not been for football, or if they had not gotten in theband, you know. If you just look around, the kids that drop out ofschool are usually the loners, you know, they stand around and leanup against the wall, they don't have a peer group, and so people, kids52:00need to be involved in extracurricular activities, and so I encouragethat. But I also was very, not very enamored with taking footballcoaches when they couldn't coach anymore and start losing, make themprincipal of a damn elementary school. And that was the old way it wasdone, and I resented that very much. I know I got a policy adopted inHarrison County where a husband and wife could not teach in the samebuilding, and, because I don't think that's good, especially if I'mthe principal and my wife's a teacher. My wife can never be anotherteacher. I mean, when she would walk into the teacher's lounge, I'msure everything would stop right there. And so I got a policy adoptedon the local level to prohibit that, and you know, I think I made adifference, and did some pretty innovative stuff, and--

FORD: There wasn't a whole lot, there was opposition from the teachers

that had to move, you know, to be reassigned, but we had fourelementary schools and a high school, and fortunately the high schoolprincipal didn't, his wife was not employed in his building. And amiddle school the same, was there, but we had some elementary peoplethat had been moved around, but that was easy because we had fourelementary schools in Harrison County. I received no resistance fromthe board, the board was very cooperative, and I believe that I broughtsome degree of leadership there that they respected, and I tried tothink through things before I brought it to the board--[telephonerings]. She'll get that. And could, tried to do something not a knee-jerk reaction, and so therefore, you know, had some degree of success.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. And as you became more and more involved, tell me about

54:00your decision--[Pause in tape]. All right, you touched on this brieflya little bit earlier, but maybe I can get a little more detailedexplanation of your decision to run. Can you explain some of what wasgoing on with other people? How did you come to decide that this wassomething that you were up for--

FORD: Well, believe it or not, this is crazy, my wife's ex-husband

was a political junkie, and he had worked in the "Happy" Chandleradministration over here in Frankfort in one thing or another, andhe's the one that decided that this would be a good thing for me todo (laughs). And the more I thought about it, you know, the more itappealed to me, and I didn't ever dream that Wilson would run for theseat again, and he did, and fortunately, you know, I did get elected.55:00But that, I mean, he planted a seed in my mind, and my wife firstsaid, "Oh, you don't want to get involved in politics, politics isugly," because you know, it was ugly for him. He was never an electedofficial, he, you know, just hung around and was on "Happy" Chandler'sstaff, and that kind of stuff, and she didn't like it. They lived overhere, she had a very bad experience, and that led to their divorce,and uhm so, but then the more she thought about it, she thought,"Well, maybe you can do some good," you know, and so we got into it,and once we made up my mind, we made up my mind (laughs) that we weregoing to run, she went to work, and I'm telling you, there's not abetter politician in the country. She's a meeter and greeter, and hadconnections in every county and worked her rear end off for me. Andshe enjoyed it; I worked my rear end off, and I didn't enjoy it. I'm56:00not a good campaigner. I mean, I'm just really not. I, some peoplelove to run and hate to serve. I hated to run and loved to serve. Imean it, I enjoyed it. But she was totally responsible for me gettingelected the first time.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: I mean, she brought that much to the table, I do believe.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. In campaigning, what would you do, or what would you say

when you went door to door? What types of things did you speak at? Or--

FORD: Well, of course 1970 we were in pretty good financial shape, and

my, I ran with one objective, and that was to remove the sales tax fromresidential utilities. I said that residential utilities were justas important to our way of life as food and medicine. We had to haveit. And I ran on that platform, and it stuck. And if my, if Wilson57:00Palmer, looking at things in retrospect, when I first sprung that onhim the first time we were together, if he had said, "That sounds likea good idea, maybe I ought to take a look at that after I'm elected,"but he didn't, he said you cannot do that. He said, "Wherever you cuttaxes you have to cut spending." And I said, "Well, Wilson, we havea surplus, a huge surplus," and it was $270 million. And he said,"Doesn't make any difference, whenever you cut taxes, you've got tocut spending, and so he took me on, but if he had said, you know, thatdoesn't sound like a bad idea, I believe I'd have lost.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

FORD: But, so he made a political boo boo right there, and so I just

wore it out from there no.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: And then the second time I ran I was able to get that done, and

everybody thought it was a great idea. And so my particular billdidn't pass, because it got to the House and they held it, and sent58:00the House bill over, and we passed the House bill over. I didn't careabout claiming authorship, that was my camp--, I fulfilled my campaignpromise. The second time I ran, and was, "He Kept His Word," I mean,that was a campaign theme. And the third time I ran was, "If It Ain'tBroke Don't Fix It."

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: And Tommy Preston, with Preston Associates in Lexington, was my

political advisor through all my campaigns, and he was very instrumentalin me getting elected too, and he, he was a personal friend.

MOYEN: Uhm, um-hm. During your first campaign, what would you say when

you start pounding the pavement, when you go out and ring doorbells? Doyou just talk about this one issue, or what--

FORD: No. No, I'd say, you know, "I'm Ed Ford, I'm running for the

state Senate," I had a little brochure I'd hand people, and they'd59:00said, "Well that's good." I'd say, "You know, I just believe we neednew faces in Frankfort," and so forth and so on, stuff like that,and they said, "Well, what are you going to do different?" Well thenI'd talk about the sales tax. And of course, it's a big district.I mean, I had the north part of Fayette County, all of Bourbon, allof Harrison, all of Nicholas, all of Woodford, and all of Scott, so Icouldn't do door-to-door.

MOYEN: Sure.

FORD: I would do some door-to-door and be visible, just so I could be

visible, but I did, we had a lot of meetings and would, I would appearat events and stuff like that to see a lot of people. But, and I had agreat supporting staff, I mean, didn't have any paid staff, but I mean,I had a lot of other people who worked for me that drove throughoutthese counties and passed out my brochures and all that kind of stuff,60:00you know. It was a, it was a team effort.

MOYEN: Either when you first started running for office, or during

your tenure, how did you deal with the diversity of your constituency?Having that northern part of Fayette County all the way up into, Iguess Robertson County.

FORD: Yeah, that's right.

MOYEN: And that's just very different--

FORD: It's very different. Of course, Robert--, you know, I think

that's one of my strengths, if I have any, is that I can mix withanybody, you know, and I can mix with governors or I can mix withjanitors, it doesn't matter. It's just, that's just the way I am.And of course the rural counties were easy because they could identifywith me, me being a veterinarian. And the part of Lexington that Irepresented is a horse country, you know, and so they could relateto me pretty good. I didn't find, you know, that never really became61:00a real problem. My opponent used, or tried to use, that I was not anative of Kentucky against me too, which was pretty weak, because--

MOYEN: Was this Palmer?

FORD: Yeah, Wilson Palmer, and he said, "Well, he's not even one of

us" (Moyen laughs). And so you know, we got through that first yearpretty successfully. I was voted the outstanding freshman of my classin 1978, and you know, got some legislation passed. I just tinkeredaround with some stuff, and believe might've changed the word fromnon-certified, when we're talking the statutes, non-certified, got thatchanged to classified. In other words, I felt that a little demeaning62:00to say, "You're a certified teacher, I'm non-certified because I drivea bus." So now we have certified people and classified people, and so Ithink that, and that was easy to get done, just--

MOYEN: Uh-huh. And that was during your first term?

FORD: Yeah, I believe it was during the first term, and that was pretty

easy to get done. And you know, everything was pretty routine. I wasvery successful, or wouldn't have been elected outstanding freshmansenator, and I remember in 1980 the Herald-Leader, at the end of 1980,wrote that I was a person to watch. And then the bad stuff startedhappening in 1981, no, let's see, '78, '79, '80, I served through '81,I guess it was, yeah, the election was in '81. I guess we may havebeen over here for a special session, I don't remember, but anyway,I got sighted for a DUI, and it just about destroyed my life, and my63:00daughter, just about killed them. And so a fellow who had been thefloor leader in the House had served ten years or so and was WendellFord's floor leader in the House, named John Swinford, prominent namein Kentucky politics, his father was Judge Max Swinford, he was afederal judge. He decided that I was vulnerable because I got thatDUI, and so he took me on in 1981, and I, you know, there'd alwaysbe somebody in the audience that says, "Hey, I understand you got,uh, picked up a drunk driving. What do you got to say about that?" Isaid, "Well, I got to say I must have been guilty. I blew a .1," andI said, "but, let me tell you what I did." I said, "I went to the drunkschool and finished valedictorian of my class." And that shut 'em up.And that's the only way to handle it, just face it. And of course64:00Swinford never said a word, but he had plants that would do this stuff.And of course I whipped him pretty good, and I remember he, I don'tthink he ever conceded. We're very good friends today, but he calledme up that, maybe the night after the election, not victory night butthe next night, and he said, "You know," he said, "I understand thatyou won." He said, "You know the thing that hurts me the most?" Says,"You beat me in my home county." I said, "John, I won my home county."I said, "this is both of our counties." And he said it again, said,"Yeah, but you're not from here." And he said, that's what killed him,and he's told me today that that still just bothers him that I couldwhip him in his own county. And I said, "Well John, you know, you'vegot to have a reason to put somebody out of office," and I said, "and,on my record I don't think, you know, the public thought I deserved tobe removed." And he said, "well, you may be right." Of course, I know65:00why he ran, he thought I was vulnerable with a DUI, and boy it taughtme a lesson, I'll tell you that. There were fourteen of us in theGeneral Assembly that got DUIs that year. Fourteen. And so I think weall learned how to behave ourselves a little better.

MOYEN: Was that pretty coincidental? Or do you feel like someone said,

"Hey, we're going to--"

FORD: It was during the John Y. administration, I think he turned

up the heat on the legislature, and he never did have much respectfor us. Never did. I don't know whether he deliberately did it,or some of his cabinet people did it, justice secretary did it, orpolice commissioner, but there's no question about it, they, theywere watching all the local watering holes pretty close, and whenlegislators would leave, they would nail them.

MOYEN: Um-hm. Let's go back just a little bit to your first term, and

you talked about governor Carroll, and his phone call to you, and then66:00that you had an amicable relationship with him. What was his leadershipstyle like, not only with you, but with the General Assembly?

FORD: Well, if you remember, in 1980, well, his relationship with the

General Assembly was very good because he had been one, and nobodyunderstood the process any better than he did, I don't believe. Imean, he knew the budget inside and out, and he knew the, knew how toget things done, and he controlled the leadership both in the House andthe Senate, and this was in 1978. And then in 1979, if you remember,the so-called Black Sheep Squadron, do you remember hearing about that?

and others, and so we finally had enough muscle that we wrested thecontrol away from the governor and elected our own leadership. And in67:001979, I believe, it was the end of 1978 that Carroll left the state,and back then when the governor's out of the state, the lieutenantgovernor became the governor, and Thelma Stovall called a specialsession. And of course we had a major flood here in Frankfort,simultaneous with going in the special session, so we had to adjourn,and Julian agreed that if we would adjourn, he would call us back in'79, and he did in the Spring of '79. And that's when we opened upthe budget, and we, the Senate sat as a Committee of the Whole, and weput Julian Carroll on the stand for six hours talking about the budget.And that's, was the, that was the beginning of the end of the governorcontrolling the General Assembly. So then John Y. Brown succeeded68:00him, and we got enough votes, election that year, enough new senatorselected that year to put us over the hump to where we could, uh,control the leadership, elect our own leadership, and we did. And JohnY. Brown says he gave us our independence; he didn't, we took it awayfrom him, that's just all there was to it. But he still makes thatstatement says, "I gave you all your independence." It just happenedto be on his watch, that's all, he didn't give us a damn thing, andhe had no respect for us. But that's when we, and I think that wasan evolution in Kentucky politics is when the General, when the Senatebecame independent, and then the House became independent also withBill Kenton as a Speaker of the House at that time, I believe.

MOYEN: Let me ask you about the Black Sheep Squadron.

FORD: Okay.

MOYEN: How did that, well, one, where did the name come from? And two,

when did you all start meeting as a group, or realizing that you were69:00moving towards the same goal? FORD: In 1978. When I got elected in1977, the first, second phone call I got after I talked to JulianCarroll was John Berry, who I'd never heard of, and he was a senatorfrom Henry County, and he wound up as our first floor leader, andthen Joe Wright succeeded him. But he wanted to have dinner, and soI did, and we did, and he, we had a mutual friend who set this up, andso the mutual friend, was named Bell, and his wife, and Carroll andJohn and Dorothy and I, we met at Cliff Hagan's over here, I believe,in Frankfort, and he was telling me what they were trying to do andso forth and so on. And he said, "Of course, you ran against theestablishment, and you're a natural for--." And so I made up my mindright then I was going to be one of them. And I think Julian sensedthat, and that's the reason he was so damn good to me, he was trying toget me not to be one of them. So, I don't know, we struggled through70:00it. And then, of course, as I say, John Y. got elected, and back inthose days, in December, you had this pre-legislative meeting of thenew, down at Kentucky Dam Village, I'm sure you've heard of thosemeetings. Well, I remember that John Berry and I had a cabin together,and he had the votes, you know, we, we worked hard, and we had thevotes to elect him as the floor leader. And Joe Prather, we were goingto let him remain as, he had become one of us, but he was presidentpro-tem of the Senate, and so we were going to leave him there, becausehe was pretty neutral really, and he knew how to run the damn place,and then we were going to, you know, elect committee chairs, and this,that, and the other. And I remember John Y. coming by our cabin abouteleven o'clock at night. He walked in, didn't have much to say, he71:00and John Berry were law school classmates, and so he said, "John, theytell me you've got the votes. Have you got them?" He said, "Yes sir."He said, "How many do you have to spare?" He says, "I don't have anyto spare, but I've got three more than I need." And so he said, "Well,I don't think I'm going to get in your all's way." And he walked out.And that was the end. I mean, that was the revelation, the revolutionin the Kentucky General Assembly, happened right there at KentuckyDam Village when he walked in, and he believed John, and John didhave them, and that was the beginning of the end of the gubernatorialstrangle hold on the legislature.

MOYEN: So, you really feel like John Y. Brown knew that it was a lost

cause, so he--

FORD: Yeah, he gave us our independence (laughs) because, he didn't

72:00have the votes. That's exactly the way it happened. And I can tellyou about the conversation, but I can't on tape, before we got aroundto talking about the votes, he and Berry (laughs) carried on thisconversation, got kind of vulgar, but I won't repeat it on the tape(both laugh). But John Y's a, he's a fun guy to be around. He reallyis. And he was, I guess he, you know, had a decent administration, hehad some good people, some good people around, but it was, hell, he'dcome to work at three o'clock in the afternoon, you know, and he mightstill be here at one o'clock in the morning, and all the sudden he'dthink, "Hell, I need to ask Ed something." Hell, he'd call you. oneo'clock in the damn morning. It was different.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. Now, when you first came to the legislature, what really

surprised you? Was there anything that surprised you?

FORD: Yes. Yes. Number one, let's say through my first term, I mean,

73:00my first session, I found out the lobbyists were an integral part ofthe process. They were not people that stood around with trench coatswith their collars turned up with bags full of money, that they wereexperts in their field. And you find out real quick who you can trustand who you can't. Now, there's some real sleazebag lobbyists, butthere's some very important lobbyists. In other words, if I'm goingto tamper with insurance, I need somebody I can go to who will tellme the truth, even though it might hurt their company, they would tellme the truth. And I found out those people are very, very crucialto the legislative process. I also found out that the press was notas ethical as I thought they were, and you know, I had held the pressin very high esteem, and you quickly find out those you can and those74:00you can't. I mean, there's not anything on this earth that I wouldn'ttell Richard Wilson, he used to be a reporter for the Courier-Journal,and if I said, "Dick, this is off the record," it was off the record.Not every reporter you could do that with. You soon find out whothe good ones are and who the bad ones are. And those were the twoeye-opening things to me, that you could not be totally candid with thepress all the time and, because they would not always print the entireconversation, only bits and pieces, and I found out that the, thatlobbyists, even though there were some very unethical lobbyists, thatthe good lobbyists were a really important part of the process.

MOYEN: Are there any specific examples where you could say you realized

that this lobbyist was really important for information you neededon an issue? Or, like you said, is there an instance where you becamedisillusioned with, either the press in general, or a reporter where75:00you thought, "I said this, and now it looks this way in the paper."

FORD: Yeah, you know, I can't just pinpoint back now, it's been so long

ago, but you know, the press is more interested in reporting negativethan they are positive, and that's disturbing to someone who's tryingto work their tail off and get good stuff happening, then you stumpyour toe and they write about it, and never write about all the goodstuff you do. And I think the press has been kinder to me than theyhave a lot of other legislators. I've seen, you know, they reallyhaven't mistreated me too bad, personally. But as an institution Ijust found out they were not exactly what I thought they were whenI was a civilian on the outside. And I guess the lobbyists were thebiggest thing, and like if I needed to, wanted to do something for the76:00horse industry, and you know, the Keeneland lobbyist was an ethicalperson, you could rely on him. And yet there might be somebody else uphere that was lobbying for another part of the horse industry that wastotally a sleazebag, and so, but, you soon, it doesn't take you long tofigure them out.

MOYEN: Right.

FORD: And then the education, of course I depended on school board

lobbyists very strongly, and they were always very supportive, andgreat resource people, you know, sources for materials and data andstatistics, and they could deliver quick. And the LRC staff, when Ifirst came in, was not as big and, as it is now, and so we were not,right now, today, I mean, they've got a staff over there that can runthe country, but back in our days it was pretty thin.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: We had, only thing, when I came to the legislature, we had a desk

77:00up on the fourth floor, and then we had a lounge over in the basementof the, of the annex. That was it. And then, might have been '82that we finally had the cubicles over there, and that was good. Itwas a little six-by-six foot cubicle with a desk and a telephone.Didn't have any computers back in those days, but there was a lotof camaraderie built, because the House and Senate wasn't necessarilyseparated, and so you knew each other, and you, we all were in thatcubicle, those cubicles down, and we still had the lounge, and weinteracted. Today, I think that's something that's missing from theGeneral Assembly, is, I mean, you know, the Republicans down here, theDemocrats over here, and the Senate's on this floor, and the House ison the other, they were literally, never get to know each other, andthat, the same thing has happened in Washington, and that happened theyear that Newt Gingrich was elected speaker, when the, the freshmen78:00split, and the Democrats went this way and the Republican, well, it wasthe Republicans who were in control, and they did not want, and thatcamaraderie is lost in Congress now. And it's not good, but, you know,that's beyond my control.

MOYEN: And you feel like some of that has, at least in Frankfort, has to

do with the development of annex and moving--

FORD: Yeah. Bigger and bigger and bigger. As a matter of fact, they're

requesting us right now to move sixty-five people off the first floorof that annex and give it, and they passed legislation, I mean, it'sthe law, they control the annex, but yet we have no place to put thepeople, we have no money to move them, and they want it now. And theyalso put language in the budget bill prohibiting us from leasing thespace. So you know, we're not going to be able to accommodate them,but yeah, they're getting too, the pendulum is swung, swinging too79:00far. These are supposed to be equal branches of government, and it allstarted, if we go back to 1980, the Senate took control, and then theHouse took control, and the pendulum swung too far the other way withSpeaker Blandford and others, so forth and so on, the legislature beganto flaunt its power and muscle a little bit, and so BOPTROT happened,you know. And that was not good, and it tarnished the legislature.But now they're expanding again, and really filling their clout, andthese tough times when we're so short of money, they rolled over an$18 million surplus on June the 30th, and didn't, didn't bat an eye.And of course we, you know, came up millions and millions short overhere starting the fiscal year, if we hadn't had the fiscal relief in80:00the federal government we'd be in a hell of a shape right now. And sothey're, you know, they're feeling their muscle like they're a separatepart of government, and their infringing on the executive, and I toldPatton the other day that I'm glad we're going out of office and notcoming in, because the next governor's going to have a tough, toughtime with that bunch. I mean, they're really feeling their musclesright now, and they're infringing, and there will be a lawsuit duringthe next administration on, similar to Brown versus LRC, where theLRC was trying to prohibit the governor from enacting administrativeregulations. And of course Brown won that case.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: But they're infringing, again, and we haven't been in a position

in the last year to do a whole lot since the revelation of thegovernment's problems. It's really weakened our power over here, and81:00made my job pretty tough if you want to know the truth, makes it reallytough. But we have to go on.

MOYEN: Right. Let me get back to your beginnings in the legislature.

You mentioned that you got on the Education Committee.

FORD: Education, Counties and Special Districts, I believe, and

Agriculture, and Natural Resources.

MOYEN: How was that done in 1978? Did the governor tell you? Did you get

to shop around? Did you request--

FORD: I put my request down, and apparently he sent word to Tom, Senator

Garrett, who was running the Senate, actually. Even though Joe Pratherwas president pro-tem, Tom Garrett was the floor leader, and he was theone that called the shots. Apparently Julian sent him a note and said,"Give him what he wants." I don't know any other reason why it would--

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

FORD: So I, you know, I focused my attention, even though I was, wound

up chair, in 1980 of the Counties and Special Districts--wait a minute,82:00no, the first year was Banking and Insurance, Agriculture, NaturalResource, and Education. And then I left banking and insurance tobecome chair of the County Special District in 1980. But I focusedmy attention, during my entire career on education and environmentalissues, and I'm not environmentalist to, but environmental issues,solid waste, garbage, clean water, but I'm, you know, I'm not one whowants to make it so clean it can't exist. But being a veterinarianand a farmer, you can appreciate the environment a little bit more,I think. And so I, you know, I chair the interim Committee onEnvironmental Issues, "Maxey" Flats was a big problem, you know, that'sour nuclear waste dump down in Fleming County, was a big problem, and83:00I became very involved in that. And actually authored the InterstateCompact Commission for Low-Level Radioactive Waste between Illinoisand Kentucky, and I'm now chair of the commission over in Springfield,Illinois. And just been interested in those kinds of issues, and ofcourse education on all levels, that's where I focused all my attention.

MOYEN: Right. Once you had this conversation with John Y. Brown, and he

gave you quote, unquote, "your legislative independence--"

FORD: The conversation was with John Berry and John Brown, and I'm a

witness. It was whoever was in the room (laughs).

MOYEN: Right. How, when you came back to Frankfort for the legislative

session, how had things changed? What was different about theatmosphere or--

FORD: Well, the old guard accepted it, of course, Tom Garrett,

84:00unfortunately, passed away, and Kelsey Friend, and Pat McCuiston, andthose guys had pretty much run things, but they accepted that the newguard was now in power, and they, they did okay with it, and we feltvery good. And of course we put people, qualified people as chairof various committees, and back then, I mean Woodrow Stamper, chairof Appropriations and Revenue, why he couldn't balance a checkbook.Well, I don't mean that, he was probably a successful businessman,but he never knew, I mean, he didn't run that committee, you know,Tom Garrett was running that committee. And so we, you know, we ch--,we made those kinds of changes, put Mike Moloney as chair of A&R, andhe understood it, and ran it, and we knew what was going on. Prior85:00to that, you know, you just voted. You didn't know, really, what wasgoing on, you didn't get great information. As I say, the LRC staffwasn't as competent then as it is now, not because we had incompetentpeople, just didn't have people. There were, the ones we had werevery competent, but they didn't have access to any information theyhave today, through technology we can access information so much fastertoday.

MOYEN: Right, right.

FORD: But it was a, we felt very good, it was a great atmosphere, and we

enjoyed, and we met every night over at Joe Wright's house. We'd meetjust about every night after the session, and we'd try to figure outwhat we were going to do tomorrow. And that was Benny Ray Bailey, andDanny Meyer, and Ed O'Daniel, myself, Lowell Hughes, Joe Wright, JohnBerry, you know, we were the core group, David Karem. Of course, Davidnever met with us at night, because he's always commuted back and forthto Louisville, and so we really bonded, you know, we became a very86:00close group.

MOYEN: Were there any important actions or legislation that you think,

obviously things were decided there, but had it not been for thatcohesive group there, making that wouldn't have happened, that stickout in your mind?

FORD: No, not really, I know Joe Wright and I differed on some issues

in education occasionally, and Nelson Allen was also chair of theEducation Committee, and he was part of our group. And you know, wedidn't expect everybody to stay in line. I mean, if it was right,you should vote for it, if it was wrong you didn't. And I think wewere more or less just, uh, we weren't trying to dictate, it neverwas that way, and the Black Sheep didn't always vote together on everyissue. Worker's comp is the one that we might have split on, you know,87:00because we had some lawyers in our group, and they would see it oneway and the rest of us would see it another way. But that's good, youknow, it would have been bad if we had become the real enemy, just likethey were. And we weren't, you know. There wasn't any control; JohnBerry didn't control it; Joe Wright didn't control it. I think theyshowed leadership, real leadership, and led us in the right direction,didn't drive us.

MOYEN: Was there any specific legislation, in your first couple of terms

in '78 or in '80 that was tough for you to vote a certain way that youknew--

FORD: Yeah, interstate, inter-county banking were the hot issues back

in those days. When I first came to the legislature, if the FarmersNational Bank was in Cynthiana, Kentucky, we could not have a branchin Bourbon County, and that was always a tough issue. And I know that88:00I opposed cross-county banking, and of course I'm now a banker (bothlaugh), I'm on the Bank Corporation Board and a bank board, and we'vegot branches everywhere (both laugh). So, you know, but times havechanged. Back in those days we thought it would be the end of thesmall banks--

[End of Tape #1, Side #2]

[Begin Tape #2, Side #1]

MOYEN: for a minute.

FORD: What was I saying?

MOYEN: We were talking about banking.

FORD: Oh yeah, and that was always a tough issue. You know, there's two

sides to every story, and of course the thing that I could see was thebig bank in New York taking over the banks in Kentucky and all that,and of course some of it's happened, you know, it's, some degree of it,89:00and it's not bad. But yet there's a, always going to be a place forthe hometown bank, I think.

MOYEN: Uh-huh.

FORD: I know we've been very successful the last several years. We have

banks in Harrison County and we've got, I think, five branches, andthen we own a bank in Carlisle, two--

MOYEN: What bank is this?

FORD: In Carlisle? MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: The, uh, hell, it's not the First National, it's the other one, oh

Lord--of course, the Farmers National Bank Corp. owns them both.

MOYEN: Okay.

FORD: It's the, the other bank, not the Whitaker Bank over there. I

can't, I've just drawn a blank. Hmm.

MOYEN: We'll come back. It's not--

FORD: Yeah, and of course our bank is Farmers National Bank in Cynthiana.

We're building a branch in Paris right now, it's under construction,and so, you know, times have changed, and of course Fifth, anotherKentucky bank, which is the old Bourbon Agricultural Bank, has got90:00a branch sitting right across the street from one of our branches inCynthiana. So, we're all getting into each other's territory. Butthat was, was always a tough vote, and you know, I don't remember awhole lot of tough votes because to me it was either right or wrong,and I never did have a problem voting, I voted my conscience on everybill. The only piece of legislation, and when I cast a vote I knew itwas a bad vote, was during that special session in 1979, you being apolitical, well you're not a political science major though, are you?

MOYEN: No.

FORD: But anyway, this all started in California with Proposition 13,

had to do with property tax. They froze the property tax. A fellowby the name of Jarvis from, you know, California is a state that isgoverned by referendum, everything is by referendum, and so it started91:00a, like a tidal wave coming across the country to freeze the propertytax, and that was House Bill 44, that was in 1979 or 1980. And I knowI got up on the floor and said, "This is going to be the worst voteI'll ever cast, and I'll vote aye." I voted for it knowing that it wasa, but I, you know, I think that if you had voted against that one,that could have ended your career, and I knew it was going to passalso. It passed almost unanimously, and it's almost become sacred inKentucky. But to show you how irresponsible it was, the per capitaproperty tax in California at that time was over $200, and per capitatax in Kentucky, property tax was $35. So, it was a very irresponsiblevote, and it has hampered school districts, it's hurt the state, thestate, the rate will go lower because the way the legislation was92:00worded, you can't have any more dollars from property tax than you hadthe preceding year. Now in, that's for the state. Now for the county,school districts, in county, they can raise up to four percent withoutbeing subject to recall, any raise beyond that is subject to recall.And it was a very, very bad vote, and it's something that needs to befixed, and it's, but, as I say, it's almost become sacred. But it'snot helping education in this state at all, not helping the governmentat all. And my, I still think that my tax on residential utilities wasthe right thing to do, but it cost $40 million in 1978 and today it'dprobably costs $200 million. But yet I still think it was the rightthing to do.

MOYEN: All right, you, when you had to go out and campaign again, which

93:00we talked about a little bit, did you feel a little more confident inwhat you were doing? Did you like it anymore, or did you still not likeit, but were more confident, or what?

FORD: I was more confident that I was going to win. Now, my wife

wasn't, because she, you know, we had the DUI. And this was JohnSwinford, who was a very prominent name in Kentucky politics, runningagainst me. I was very confident, because I knew I'd done a good job,and I faced up to my indiscretion, and didn't try to lie my way out ofit. I felt like people would send me back to Frankfort. She didn't.But it was a lot, I was a little more comfortable campaigning thattime than I had been the first time. I knew a little bit more aboutwhat I was talking about then. The first time I didn't know what thehell I was talking about. But I also found out that for an incumbent,you can't just say anything. I mean, you've got to be responsible.94:00And when you're an outsider running against somebody, you can sayanything, because you're dumb, you don't know, and, but it was not,and I won by almost the same margin the second time. And then the nexttime I think I had Republican opposition but no primary opposition.And then when I ran the first time in '77, I failed to mention thatthere was a third person in the race.

MOYEN: Right. And this was in the primaries?

FORD: In the primary. And, but he, he got then, less than ten percent

of the vote, and his name slips me at this moment, but he made itinteresting. He had a twin brother, and they looked exactly alike, andthey would campaign in two places at the same time (both laugh). AndI remember some, he made the statement that he could not understandwhy he only got less than ten percent of the vote. He said, "Hell,95:00I think I saw ninety percent of the people," and they said, "Well,that's the reason you got the ten percent. They didn't see you (bothlaugh), they didn't know you." We, you know, made a joke out of it.It was a, it was fun. But yeah I, you know, I was very confident thethird time running against a Republican who filed, or lady attorney,and she really did not know what she was doing, and, but she made itinteresting. I didn't campaign quite as hard that time because I hadwon two successful races. She had never run for anything,. Democratsout, I think we had, I don't know, five or six to one.

MOYEN: Right.

FORD: I didn't get too excited about it, but I also found out that it's

going to be thirty percent of the people to vote against any incumbent.

and I think she paid $20 to file and never left the house, and gotthirty percent of the vote (Moyen laughs), and Betsy Davenport who ranagainst me, she worked her rear end off, and she got thirty percent ofthe vote.

MOYEN: Uh-huh. Now, you had mentioned with your DUI that that was tough

on your family, was it just the instance or was it things that you hadto face with the paper, or your opponent, or all the above?

FORD: Yeah, I think it was a great embarrassment to my wife and

daughter, and they knew I wasn't a drunk and an alcoholic, but yet thiswas such a great embarrassment because I almost had a lily white imageup until then, and I guess that kind of humanized me a little bit. Butup until then, I think they had me on a pedestal where I didn't belong,probably.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: But it was, it was devastating. I mean, my wife lost maybe ten

97:00or fifteen pounds during that campaign, just worrying herself sick,and I remember very distinctly that, of course, we had people reportingimmediately from the polls when they counted, calling in and we knewwe were over the hump and had the thing won, and I told my wife, Isaid, "Honey, you ain't got nothing to worry about, we've already wonthis thing," you know, "we're so many thousand votes ahead." And shesaid, "But you haven't heard from Stamping Ground" (laughs). As ifI could lose the race, you know, where maybe six hundred votes came.She never did believe we was going to win. It was tough on her,man it was tough. And I'll tell you then, a politician living in afishbowl is tough on families, it's really tough on the folks' family.Just think how tough it must be for Chelsea Clinton, you know, withher daddy behaving like he does, and of course I've seen it here. You98:00know, again, it's tough on the families. It's very tough. And theDUI, you know, was insignificant, or should have been, although it's abad thing, I mean, to take a drink and get behind the wheel of a car,it's a bad thing, but it's not a capital offense, but as far as my wifewas concerned, my daughter, it was a capital offense, that I had reallyjust about gone out and murdered somebody. But we get over it.

MOYEN: Right. Now, once you had won that election, we're still in John

Y. Brown's administration, were there any other pieces of legislationduring his term that you really fought for, or really, really opposedvehemently?

FORD: No, you know, I really can't say that I did. I had a very

good relationship with some of his cabinet folks, and we got alongvery well, and I don't remember any monumental legislators moving99:00legislation that I passed, although I had a very good, solid record,and, but I wasn't out there trying to change the world. And as, onceagain, as I say, I never was one to, pride in authorship doesn't botherme. I know I sponsored the legislation to set up this Personal ServiceContract Review Subcommittee, and Bob Jones over in the House submittedthe identical legislation, and of course, mine passed the Senate,his passed the House. They sent his bill to us, we sent my bill tothe House and they buried it, you know, and, but, that kind of stuffdoesn't bother me. So, you know, that was a very good thing we did, itwas, and I became a member of that committee, a charter member, "Eck"Rose and I did, and I think back in those days, I mean, they talk aboutpersonal service contracts now like they're something bad. Point in100:00personal service contracts are is you are outsourcing, you know, ratherthan to keep somebody on staff that you don't need twelve months outof the year, you have a personal service contract. Well, back in thosedays it was a, they were being used as political pawns, and what ourcommittee did was exposed it and brought them to light. And I thinkwe're a lot better today than we were in 1978, all of government'soperating better, more open, I think.

MOYEN: All right. I think that I read somewhere that you helped co-

chair Martha Layne Collins' campaign.

FORD: I was her, I was her, my wife was her co-chair, statewide

co-chairman for both lieutenant governor and governor, and I was herstatewide organizational chairman for the general election.

FORD: Okay, well, we had the state divided up, I believe into six, six

or seven segments, and I hired a person to work out of headquartersfor each, let's say western Kentucky, the purchase area or something,and it was their responsibility to stay in touch with those folks andto organize, and this, that, and the other. And mainly what I did inher campaign, other than go with her, was to put out fires, and I guessthe biggest fires I had to put out was in Madison County where theDemocratic Party was pretty split down there, they were always fightingamongst themselves, go down and be a peacemaker. I guess I had quite afew problems in Daviess County, and so basically that's what I did, but102:00I, we organized the, we called ourselves "Democrats Together, '83." Ranas a slate, the entire slate ran together, Steve Beshear was the vice,was, uh, lieutenant governor, and we all ran out of headquarters. AndI didn't have to raise any money; I wasn't into any of that. I just,was strictly organizational, and got, we had to stay organized. And ofcourse my good friend Jim Bunning was running against us, and we wereboth in the Senate, and he has a short fuse, and we, we would light itevery time we met. It was fun (both laugh).

MOYEN: Um-hm. Now, you talked about putting out fires in Madison County

or, or in Owensboro. What types of things would come up?

FORD: Oh, it's where this side would get mad because Jim Jones was doing

this, and if you don't let him do that, by God, we just won't be for103:00anybody, and you have to go down there and be a referee, and I waspretty good, pretty good negotiator. And we kept, kept the peace. Iknow the Combs's in Madison County are a very influential family, verytight with Martha Layne Collins, very opposed to the Mayor of Berea,who was also on our team, and I mean, "If you don't get rid of him, byGod, we're not going to be for you," and this, that, and the other, andit was just a mess. But that's part of it. I enjoyed it.

MOYEN: Within the Democratic Party, as Republicans have gained more

and more influence in the state, has that lessened, I guess what I'masking, do you think some of the divisions developed essentially as acreature of dominance? FORD: You know, I'm not sure, but I know thatCollins was very involved in the Democratic Party, and I know we left104:00the Democratic Party in very good shape. When we left, John Y. Browncompletely divorced himself from the Democratic Party. Didn't havea damn thing to do with them. Wallace Wilkinson was the same way.Brereton Jones, same way. And I think that's what, I think that'swhat has weakened the Democratic Party is the inattention the governorshave given. I think Paul Patton tried to pull it back together, but,because he's a foreman chair under, under Brown for a short periodof time, and, but they just didn't put any, the governors didn't payany attention. And so you go through three governors ignoring theDemocratic Party, and not feeling any great obligation to the party, Ijust think it just fell apart.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: I don't know what's happened. That's the only thing I can put my

finger on. And young Democrats used to be very active and influentialin Kentucky; you barely hear of them today. And that has to begin withthe Democrat headquarters to form young Democrats.105:00

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: So, I think it's inattention by the leadership of the, of the st-

-, because the governor is the de facto head of the Democratic Party,and so I think it's just been inattention, and it's weakened us. Andthen I think the revolution actually started with, in, on the nationalscene, with the Republicans taking over. I think they can spin theirstuff better than we do. Some way they have made liberal and Democratall synonymous, and liberal being a dirty word, and of course whatliberal means to me is you care, and you're compassionate, and youcare about people. And, but they made liberal a dirty word, and Ithink they just spin their message better than we do. We just don'tdo it very well, and then you've got the right wing radio network, talkshows, just awful, just awful stuff, and, but that's the way we go.106:00

MOYEN: Um-hm. Getting back to the Martha Layne Collins campaign.

FORD: Um-hm.

MOYEN: Once she was elected, how was, did that seem, or what was said

amongst insiders about that being a big deal that a woman is governorin a Southern state in the '80's? FORD: You know, I guess I was soclose to that election that it never occurred to me that she was a,that significant really, I mean, we had, after I got elected in 1978,she was Clerk of the Court of Appeals, I believe, last elected Clerk ofthe Court of Appeals, and she came over to my house and asked my wifeto be her state co-chairman for lieutenant governor. And so we becamevery close, and I just never did see her as any, any significant other107:00than just being a great campaigner. And my wife and she traveled thisstate with, didn't have any money, just the two of them, and they'dfind Bill Sullivan's in Henderson, they'd stay at his house tonight,and then somebody else's house the next night, and, but we becamepretty close, and I just didn't see her as being that significant, butI guess it really, really was.

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: Unfortunately, I think in her election that some promises might

have been made by others other than she for certain positions, and Idon't think she had the best, strongest cabinet in the country, and youknow, I think she was a great governor. And, uh, you know, there weresome scandals, as a result of, in her election, as a matter of fact,her husband, I think, uh, did a little time.108:00

MOYEN: Um-hm.

FORD: And her, a person, I won't say it was hers, but I'll say

the Finance Secretary Mack Thompson wound up testifying againsther husband, and of course, he, her husband was totally, directlyresponsible for Mack Thompson being secretary of finance, and you know,Floyd Poore, the doctor, was a transportation secretary who'd raised alot of money, and of course he had to leave too, you know. She got ridof him. But I think she was a good governor. I think if she'd havehad total control, she'd have been an even better governor.