Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

You see, there wouldn't be an issue if the Christians hadn't vandalized the displays that Atheists, also expressing their very equal first amendment rights, put up. It's a public space. The Christians do not get special privileges for their displays over those of other faiths or lack thereof.

But since the Christians went and vandalized the other displays, the city decided to cancel the whole thing rather than have the same kind of trouble this year. Now, the city's decision to try to avoid conflict may not be the correct decision, but don't blame the atheists for putting them in the position they were in to make such a decision.

Happy Hours:I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

"Scenes" are not speech, you retard. You want to hand out leaflets or preach in the park, go ahead. If you want to act out the nativity with live people, feel free. But if you want to put up a scene and then leave it, you need a permit, just as if you were putting up a billboard.

And as someone pointed out earlier, they'd have continued permission if someone hadn't chosen to vandalize the atheists' display last year.

Here we go again. Hurr Durr "War on Christmas" derpy derp derpity doo! Normally, I like this time of year. But these douchebags who insist I celebrate the season their way are getting to be intolerable, for Christ's sake.

andersoncouncil42:Happy Hours: Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

How is "pray all you want, wherever you want, to whom ever you want, just don't use public money or land" against the 1st amendment or asshole behavior?

Militant atheists are the ones who dare to admit it, OUT LOUD. And politely requesting that the law is followed makes us assholes.

No, that would definitely be the religious folks. Religion is pretty much a system for inducing misery while making your victims feel like they deserve it and should be enjoying it. But that has nothing to do with this thread.

StrangeQ:But apparently the Christians' right to speech trumps the atheists as they were the ones who vandalized the atheist displays...

No. Let's stop for a second and be honest with ourselves. The atheists' "display" wasn't exactly a display of something meaningful and valuable that they wanted to showcase about a seasonal holiday they celebrate; it was a Big ol' "Fark you" to the christians -the equivalent of a big farking middle finger sticking up in the air, so don't go all martyr on this by saying that your beliefs were attacked when someone "vandalized" said display.

The Santa Monica Nativity Scenes Committee argues in its lawsuit that atheists have the right to protest, but that freedom doesn't trump the Christian's right to free speech.

But apparently the Christians' right to speech trumps the atheists as they were the ones who vandalized the atheist displays after the atheists applied for the display locations under the exact same system and using the exact same rules as the Christians. Hypocrisy at its finest.

mamoru:Happy Hours: Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

You see, there wouldn't be an issue if the Christians hadn't vandalized the displays that Atheists, also expressing their very equal first amendment rights, put up. It's a public space. The Christians do not get special privileges for their displays over those of other faiths or lack thereof.

But since the Christians went and vandalized the other displays, the city decided to cancel the whole thing rather than have the same kind of trouble this year. Now, the city's decision to try to avoid conflict may not be the correct decision, but don't blame the atheists for putting them in the position they were in to make such a decision.

Okay, you got me to read the rest of the article. I only read about half of it the first time around. So some shiat got vandalized. That seems to me to be a criminal matter, but to say there wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for that vandalism is somewhat dishonest. Activist atheists obviously saw an issue which is why they trolled the Christians with their displays of Poseidon and Flying Spaghetti Monsters - and that's their right of free speech to do so too.

I find it sad, I'm not religious but I'm not against religion either. If you want to celebrate your god or even multiple gods I'm not going to show up at your celebration just to shiat all over it. If you want to protest a religion, let's be specific about it. Protest the Catholic church sheltering pedophiles if you want. That's something even Catholics can support.

But you just look like assholes when you show up to mock those who have different beliefs than you do - even though that is your right. The First Amendment does protect your right to be an asshole and to make a fool of yourself. I'm suggesting that it might be wiser not to do so.

Uncle Tractor:Why is it that so many atheists in the US feel compelled to label atheists who speak up as assholes or pricks or whatever?

/at least I think it's just atheists in the US

Because they are trying to paint themselves as the different, hipster atheists that would never do something so crass as defend their lack of belief in a public forum. Some atheists consider a submissive conciliatory stance towards fundamentalists to be less upsetting and more harmonious a way to demonstrate their beliefs. The golden rule, and all that.

But some of us tried that, realized that Christians don't consider non Christians as equally human, and certainly don't believe in extending them the same rights and protections enjoyed by Christians. Christians are a special, elevated class to them, and the rules and restrictions that bind others matter not to them.

This whole display issue is the perfect example. Atheists get discriminated against by the Christians, Christians kick up a fuss, Christians ruin it for everyone. It's like history in miniature.

I feel like I'm looking at the command deck of Spaceball One when I read this article - nothing but Assholes with a capital A. Atheists trying to provoke the Christians, Christians dicking out on the atheists for provoking them, just sounds like they're all just miserable pricks who hate each other.

I'm a lapsed Catholic. I admit I don't really like going to church, pretty much because it doesn't do anything for me anymore and I feel like I know when I'm doing good and when I'm being a dick. But when we're talking about a frickin' religious holiday, it's hard to sit there and say "you know what? I don't think that nativity scene belongs there." I understand how someone can not believe and all, but when Christians get one month out of the twelve of the year to be proud of their religion, it just seems petty to be sitting there and antagonizing them for it. I'm sure if the atheists lost their extra day off in December they'd be pissing and moaning about working too much, too.

Why do we all have to be a bunch of pricks to each other? Why do we have to spend the last two months of every goddamned year treating each other like pricks because of what we believe? Maybe it's because my best friend is Wiccan and another good friend's wife is a Reiki priestess, and I was taught by very ecumenical-minded people even at a Catholic college, but it just seems like a waste and a denouncement of Christian principles to be so dickish about religion or a lack thereof. Especially when it comes to the time of year that's supposed to be about family, about acceptance, about good will towards all, and just generally not being a dick.

Happy Hours:Okay, you got me to read the rest of the article. I only read about half of it the first time around. So some shiat got vandalized. That seems to me to be a criminal matter, but to say there wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for that vandalism is somewhat dishonest.

Actually, it's not. The only reason the city isn't doing it again this year is because of the vandalism. If the nutjob Christians could accept the fact that their supernatural superstition is just as valid as every other form of supernatural superstition and learn to live with the fact that occasionally people are going to point that out to them when they try to broadcast their beliefs for all the world to see then there wouldn't be a problem.

t3knomanser:Happy Hours: Activist atheists obviously saw an issue which is why they trolled the Christians with their displays of Poseidon and Flying Spaghetti Monsters - and that's their right of free speech to do so too.

That is not trolling. That's getting equal time. Poseidon is as legitimate a deity as any other, and we have equal reason to believe in him as we do the judeochristolamic deity. If the state gives one religious group space, then they must give everyone space. That's the best reason for keeping government away from religious holidays.

No, it would be different if these people actually believed in Poseidon. It's still trolling. And yes, trolling is protected free speech (at least for now), but let's be clear about this. Certain atheists set up displays for the sole purpose of pissing off some Christians.That is trolling. That is evidence that it was an issue before the vandalism took place.

They weren't really promoting Poseidon. They were making a point - which is their right, but it was still very trollish of them especially because they didn't actually believe in Poseidon.

Personally, I don't see religion as such a threat that I have to troll religious folks. I can comfortably ignore religion.

People complain about "free speech zones" for political protests but at the same time they want free speech when it comes to religion to be off of any public property. I think we should be a little more tolerant of speech and allow it and promote it even when we disagree with the message.

What a douche. I'm an Atheist, I have never believed, never went to church outside of a couple of weddings and a baptism. fark this guy. I like seeing the decorations. I like seeing lit up menorahs in windows. I put up 3 full sized trees in my house. Why stop someone else from doing something? Turn your head for a month if you don't like it. Public land is just that, for everyone. So in the summer, you Lib's have your dirty hippies playing folk music on the lawn while you funk up the fresh air, in winter you have a nativity scene, see, it's fair.

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

This.

No different than the anti-drugs and anti-drinking crowd. They just want other people to be miserable. Worthless, the lot of them.

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

You're absolutely right. Religious freedom is covered, but so is freedom from it. That's really the problem though, isn't it? Atheists aren't stopping "Christians" from practicing their religion. They're simply keeping you from foisting it off on everyone else, while attempting to acquire an air of legitimacy by putting up these assinine displays on prominent governmental properties. You know, the ones we ALL pay for. Then you act like spoiled children when you can't have it your way. Particularly when you cannot bully into silence those who feel differently. It is obscene and perverse.

You know why the Founding Fathers put that there? Because NO ONE is an asshole like a militant "Christian".

Happy Hours:neongoats: All that being said: you churches bilk your people out of shiatloads of money and don't farking pay a dime in taxes, so here is an idea.. Use that money to put a display up at your church, on your church land.

That's not a particularly bad idea. I grew up near a church that did exactly that. Every year they had a live nativity scene with real people and everything. I'm not sure what they did. It kind of looked like the cheesy nativity display my parents put up in our front yard except they used real people.

Can we keep all non-religious groups from demonstrating on public land too? Surely the Freedom From Religion organization has an office somewhere that they can organize a protest on their property. And I'm sure the Democratic party and the GOP have offices too. Let's keep these people on their own land. No public protests or demonstrations of any kind! If it's good enough for religion, it's good enough for any kind of speech.

The atheists weren't the ones demanding exclusivity. But I'm fine with Christians using the public propery, I'm not at all fine with their "only WE get to do it!" Sense of entitlement.

And yes, to an atheist, your dear and fluffy lord is exactly as ridiculous and invented a fantasy as Poseidon. The only difference is that no one bombs clinics in Poseidon's name, Poseidon's worshippers aren't constantly trying to wrest control of my government and institute a Poseidon centered theological dictatorship.

Jesus wishes he could say the same thing, but his worshippers are off indulging in Paul inspired barbarism and hate.

cman:And people wonder why we Americans are so divided. We are more content with pissing in everyone's coffee instead of live and let live

It's the sports mentality of winning being more important that what you've won, or what moral integrity, common decency, or display of common sense you had to sacrifice to win. As long as "my side" won it doesn't matter if it means we win a trip off some cliff. So long as my side won.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people think "We've been violating the Constitution for 60 years and nobody complained before" is a valid defense.

/ You know what would be awesome? If Christians who understood the importance of secular government went after these sorts of displays so as not to make it an "Evil atheist vs. poor suffering Christians" issue.

StrangeQ:Actually, it's not. The only reason the city isn't doing it again this year is because of the vandalism. If the nutjob Christians could accept the fact that their supernatural superstition is just as valid as every other form of supernatural superstition and learn to live with the fact that occasionally people are going to point that out to them when they try to broadcast their beliefs for all the world to see then there wouldn't be a problem.

Interesting perspective. So any minor vandalism should be enough to quash free speech? Do you really think most Christians were in favor of vandalizing the displays of others? That's almost like saying all Muslims are terrorists because a handful of them commit acts of terrorism.

Should free speech be stopped whenever it appears on public property? If a gay rights organization wants to hold a protest in public, should they be stopped because it would be a government endorsement of their views?

I say let the people - no matter what their religion, race or whatever gather peaceably and protest in favor of or against whatever they want.

Happy Hours:I find it sad, I'm not religious but I'm not against religion either. If you want to celebrate your god or even multiple gods I'm not going to show up at your celebration just to shiat all over it. If you want to protest a religion, let's be specific about it. Protest the Catholic church sheltering pedophiles if you want. That's something even Catholics can support.

But you just look like assholes when you show up to mock those who have different beliefs than you do - even though that is your right. The First Amendment does protect yo ...

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."- Thomas Jefferson

Happy Hours:Activist atheists obviously saw an issue which is why they trolled the Christians with their displays of Poseidon and Flying Spaghetti Monsters - and that's their right of free speech to do so too.

That is not trolling. That's getting equal time. Poseidon is as legitimate a deity as any other, and we have equal reason to believe in him as we do the judeochristolamic deity. If the state gives one religious group space, then they must give everyone space. That's the best reason for keeping government away from religious holidays.

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

cassanovascotian:It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

If your enjoyment of the holiday is contingent upon a nativity scene on public property, and I am pretty sure I speak for atheists, muslims, christians, jews, etc here, you are doing it wrong!

Happy Hours:StrangeQ: Happy Hours: They weren't really promoting Poseidon. They were making a point - which is their right, but it was still very trollish of them especially because they didn't actually believe in Poseidon.

Would it be very trollish of me if all the world smoked cigarettes and I and a few others knew the truth that they cause you to die of terrible, delibilitating cancer and so we set about putting up signs depicting diseased lungs on national have a smoke day?

Not if that's what you really believed, but do you think these people really believed in Poseidon? If you did it just because you hate smokers then yes, it would be trollish.

What if I believe that superstitious nonsense does nothing for the betterment of mankind and has in fact led in several instances to the stagnation and loss of social and scientific advancement?

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

TFA:"Missing from the courtroom drama will be Vix and his fellow atheists, who are not parties to the case."

It is odd that so many people of faith delight as describing atheism as "just another religion" - and yet, when atheists publicly declare and display their "faith", they want to suppress it - even going as far as vandalism. Strange.

Poor oppressed Christians. Whatever will they do? If only those danged atheists hadn't had the nerve, the NERVE, to put up a display. It's clearly their fault for not shutting up and being quiet like the worthless little sinners they are.

/Everyone who believes in this "war against Christmas/Christianity" nonsense should be fired out of a canon into space. Or into a brick wall.

StrangeQ:The Santa Monica Nativity Scenes Committee argues in its lawsuit that atheists have the right to protest, but that freedom doesn't trump the Christian's right to free speech.

But apparently the Christians' right to speech trumps the atheists as they were the ones who vandalized the atheist displays after the atheists applied for the display locations under the exact same system and using the exact same rules as the Christians. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Just like 19 terrorists on 9/11 represents the whole one billion Muslim world, amirite?

t3knomanser:Happy Hours: Activist atheists obviously saw an issue which is why they trolled the Christians with their displays of Poseidon and Flying Spaghetti Monsters - and that's their right of free speech to do so too.

That is not trolling. That's getting equal time. Poseidon is as legitimate a deity as any other, and we have equal reason to believe in him as we do the judeochristolamic deity. If the state gives one religious group space, then they must give everyone space. That's the best reason for keeping government away from religious holidays.

EQUAL time? The secular coalition won 18 of 21 spaces. The two others went to the traditional Christmas displays and one to a Hanukkah display.

It would've been fine if they had 1 or 2. Displays about the secular bit of Xmas. Or even a flat-out atheist thingee about how there's no God or something. That would've been fine. But 18 of 21!??

Happy Hours:They weren't really promoting Poseidon. They were making a point - which is their right, but it was still very trollish of them especially because they didn't actually believe in Poseidon.

Would it be very trollish of me if all the world smoked cigarettes and I and a few others knew the truth that they cause you to die of terrible, delibilitating cancer and so we set about putting up signs depicting diseased lungs on national have a smoke day?

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

How is "pray all you want, wherever you want, to whom ever you want, just don't use public money or land" against the 1st amendment or asshole behavior?

cassanovascotian:I am claiming that people who want to put up some public display to celebrate a holiday aren't really hurting anyone

When they put it up on government land, it does hurt people. They are flouting our separation of church and state, and perpetuating a paradigm of religious intervention in government. That's not cool. And then somehow, the small amount of tongue-in-cheek pushback you see from atheists (after centuries of suppression, ridicule, ostracism, and persecution by christians) is an absurd, thinly veiled insult? That's crazy.

It's also crazy that you still don't see that Christians in America are STILL trying to push for things that are oppressive to atheists. Not a day goes by that some jackass politician fails to remark that the US is a "christian nation" or some such nonsense. Women's reproductive rights, gays' right to marry, a shopkeeper's right to sell beer on sunday... all still under attack by religion. Atheists want nothing more than the level playing field that our laws are supposed to be providing. Any attempt to paint that as "militant", "aggressive", "insulting" or "trolling" comes from an ignorant, unconsidered point-of-view that is disregarding the current social and legal imbalance that exists.

gja:Not reallyThat argument fails. The commandment is thus "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", or in plain english 'you need to worship me as YOUR only god".

Uhhh...

Deuteronomy 4:35,39 - Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]

Deuteronomy32:39 - See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

2 Samuel 7:22 - Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

1 Kings 8:60 - That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

2 KINGS 5:15 - And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

2 Kings 19:15 - And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

1 Chronicles 17:20 - O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Nehemiah 9:6 - Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Psalm 18:31 - For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Isaiah 37:16,20 - O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.

Isaiah43:10,11 - Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

Isaiah44:6,8 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:21 - Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 46:9 - For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

Hosea 13:4 - Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.

Joel 2:27 - And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Zechariah 14:9 - And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Mark 12:29-34 -And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Romans 3:30 - Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 - As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, andthat there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Galatians 3:20 - Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Ephesians 4:6 - One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

James 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

gja:I will give agree it has gone so very far afield from what it SHOULD be, but still......no reason for the hatin' season.People can remain the BEST christian part of Christmas, it just takes us to remember to be decent humans to each other.

Hate? Putting up some parodic displays isn't hate.

One of the problems with many religious people is that they interpret everything that isn't total submission as "hate."

gja:Uncle Tractor: And that, plus the star at the top of the tree, is just about the only christian thing about it. The reason for the season, aka axial tilt:

I will give agree it has gone so very far afield from what it SHOULD be, but still......no reason for the hatin' season.People can remain the BEST christian part of Christmas, it just takes us to remember to be decent humans to each other.

/axial tilt, solstice, geo year...I am an engineer so physics and astrology is spoken here but thanks for the reminder for those not "in the know"

1953 - First Nativity scenes held in public parksUp until 1978, Santa Monica had subsidized the scenes by paying for electricity, underwriting revenue lost by bagging the parking meters in front of the scenes & assistance in erecting the booths (this was merely a financial decision as Proposition 13 was curtailing funds)1979 - All direct city support was withdrawn after ACLU/Madelyn Murray O'Hair threatened suit1980 - 1982 displays were underfunded crappola1984 - Emboldened by Lynch v. Donnelly, a resurgence in private funding & participation2001 - 2003 City of Santa Monica & nativity supporters clashed over ordinances regarding displays in city parks2009, 2010 - Atheist Damon Vix petitions city & is granted a single display2011 - Dix and a large number of fellow atheist activists (mostly from outside of the city) inundate the city with applications. Under city rules, any group was allowed to apply up to 14 spaces; the number of applications necessitated a lottery that resulted in 18/21 spaces going to the atheist activists, 2/21 to Nativity scenes & 1 to a Jewish display. Atheist displays are mostly vandalized.2012 - Santa Monica cuts off everyone to avoid the issue getting worse

My personal opinion: Once the city stopped supporting/underwriting the scenes, their lottery system was an inherently fair way to treat public religious displays. The atheists gamed the system, and were pretty much jerks about it, but no Christian rights were infringed, the lawsuit is bunk. This is a shallow win for the atheists, who come off looking like smug assholes; they'd have been better served in the long game by increasing their presence gradually over the next few years.

Swiftstone2012:Happy Hours: Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

You're absolutely right. Religious freedom is covered, but so is freedom from it. That's really the problem though, isn't it? Atheists aren't stopping "Christians" from practicing their religion. They're simply keeping you from foisting it off on everyone else, while attempting to acquire an air of legitimacy by putting up these assinine displays on prominent governmental properties. You know, the ones we ALL pay for. Then you act like spoiled children when you can't have it your way. Particularly when you cannot bully into silence those who feel differently. It is obscene and perverse.

You know why the Founding Fathers put that there? Because NO ONE is an asshole like a militant "Christian".

That's interesting. I'm not the Christian here but you presume I am. My city spends a lot of money every year on things I don't necessarily support. It's because we voted for those things explicitly or we voted for city council members who supported them.

Let me play devil's advocate and pick on our Octoberfest beer celebration. I'll neglect all the positive aspects about how it promotes local businesses (breweries and micro-breweries and even restaurants and local shops downtown) which all benefit from our citywide promotion of alcohol abuse. Why should those businesses get what is essentially a handout from the city and why should the city spend money promoting alcohol abuse? Is it because my fellow citizens like to drink beer? How dare they! What about all the people who don't drink (for whatever reason). What about all the people who are killed in alcohol-related accidents every year? Why should my city spend money promoting something that promotes substance abuse?

We are free to drink in this country. We're also free not to drink. That doesn't mean we're free from promotion of alcohol and while I wish my city didn't spend any tax-dollars on a beer fest (the breweries can afford to promote themselves) most people think it's a great idea and they think it promotes local businesses.

When you speak of freedom from religion I think you and I have a very different idea of what that means. Nobody can force me to go to church. That's freedom from religion. Anyone can come up to me on the street and tell me that I should go to church. I'm free to ignore them and I'm also free to tell them to fark off and leave me alone. That's freedom of speech and it works both ways. They can tell me that Christ died for my sins and I can tell them I think they're full of shiat.

There is no freedom from religion just as there is no freedom from any other form of speech with which you might disagree.

neongoats:But some of us tried that, realized that Christians Americans don't consider non Christians Americans as equally human, and certainly don't believe in extending them the same rights and protections enjoyed by Christians Americans. Christians Americans are a special, elevated class to them, and the rules and restrictions that bind others matter not to them.

Well, that's how it looks to the rest of the world. Can't have a state religion? Turn your state into a religion. Hooray for American Exceptionalism.

Here we go again. Hurr Durr "War on Christmas" derpy derp derpity doo! Normally, I like this time of year. But these douchebags who insist I celebrate the season their way are getting to be intolerable, for Christ's sake.

Happy Hours:Personally, I don't see religion as such a threat that I have to troll religious folks. I can comfortably ignore religion.

Then you haven't been paying attention to religion. I'm an atheist now, but was raised Jewish. Hell I still participate in some of the holidays, specifically the family ones. I'm all too aware of the dangers of being a minority religion.

I don't believe in trolling the religious, people only entrench themselves further when you ridicule beliefs. I won't go to their homes handing out leaflets like they do to me. I won't protest outside their churches. The sole exception to this, however, is when we're talking about the government. There should be no place for religion in government. The religious people who forget or ignore or disagree with that need to be reminded at every step of the way. If a subtly mocking spaghetti monster or Poseidon is what it takes, then good for them.

gja:Look folks, it's called CHRISTmas, or broken down in structure "Christ's mass".

Now, maybe. Before the Christians appropriation it was called Yule or Yuletide or simply a celebration of the solstice. The absolute most infuriating thing about this and the reason why I have no sympathy for Christian groups in this situation is that despite the season's historical background, they insist on claiming it as a purely Christian holiday with purely Christian roots when such a claim is utterly false. I will not now or ever support a group who runs on a platform of outright falsehoods.

neongoats:So pretty much the only time in the long history of this tradition that vandalism became a big problem, just happens to coincide with Christian poutrage over having to share space with atheists, but to you that spells "random vandalism".

By and large a violent cult, few of which exhibit any of the virtues Jesus felt we're important. Boy they love the fire and hate of Paul though.

Wait....

You have documentation that no vandalism has happened at all to any displays over the last 60 years? That is pretty impressive, since I don't think I know of anything that goes up every year in a major city for that many years altogether avoid vandalism.Every year some church or other gets its nativity scene trashed by someone and it ends up on the news. Or a public display gets vandalized.I seen several stories on the news over the years, of people painting nazi symbols on stuff, and everyone HORRIFIED that anti-semites could be in their community, then it turns out it was some asshole kids that have no affiliations or beliefs with anyone at all, but rather want to cause a major scene and shock the adults.

Like everyone here echoes, until it conflicts with their opinion, correlation does not equal causation. The information seems to link the vandalism to the Christians, and it could very well be them, but no media is going to say "despite no evidence" since it doesn't equal good sensationalism to get people like you in an uproar.

Does it even matter which side it was anyway? Both are being asshats. Both sides have people that are capable of such thing, and those people don't necessarily reflect the whole group. So it's a moot point.I don't want to be associated with the asshole atheists because they're idiot trolls, and I doubt an average Christian wants to be associated with a few intolerant vandals. fark agenda based organized groups of people in general, whether religious or not, as they tend to all be a bunch of intolerant morons, or at least run and presented by people that are.

cman:Wait until atheists hear that the names of the days of the week are of religious origin. That would be a fun lawsuit.

You know what's really fun? The fact that atheists consistantly score higher on religious historical tests than their respective believers. Atheists were pointing out to the Christians that they were using various gods to name the days of the week by the time they hit junior high.

The difference is nobody believes in those gods anymore, or at least very few do, and nobody takes the naming convention as a directive to believe or even as an endorsement of Norse religion.

cman:xanadian: DerAppie: xanadian: The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

If they did it to get equal time they should have picked another date. Putting Poseidon or FSM displays up right next to those of the Christians is just juvenile behaviour. Almost as if the best way to protest that they could come up with was similar to the kid with his finger hovering an inch from your forehead while claiming "I'm not touching you!" Just let them have their fun for a month or two and pick another period of similar length to put up your own display. But no one is interested in doing that because the drama would only be half of what can be generated in December.

I have to disagree with the last bit. I think atheists having their displays up during the Xmas season is perfectly fine, if it serves a purpose other than just trolling. Like the historical aspects of Christmas I mentioned in my previous posts: about how it's a pagan holiday co-opted by the Catholics of the day. And even then, I'm sure that's only part of the story.

Wait until atheists hear that the names of the days of the week are of religious origin. That would be a fun lawsuit.

We already knew.

Wait until the Christians learn that the days of the week are named after "false" gods.

cman:xanadian: DerAppie: xanadian: The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

If they did it to get equal time they should have picked another date. Putting Poseidon or FSM displays up right next to those of the Christians is just juvenile behaviour. Almost as if the best way to protest that they could come up with was similar to the kid with his finger hovering an inch from your forehead while claiming "I'm not touching you!" Just let them have their fun for a month or two and pick another period of similar length to put up your own display. But no one is interested in doing that because the drama would only be half of what can be generated in December.

I have to disagree with the last bit. I think atheists having their displays up during the Xmas season is perfectly fine, if it serves a purpose other than just trolling. Like the historical aspects of Christmas I mentioned in my previous posts: about how it's a pagan holiday co-opted by the Catholics of the day. And even then, I'm sure that's only part of the story.

Wait until atheists hear that the names of the days of the week are of religious origin. That would be a fun lawsuit.

The next time an Odin, Tyr, Freyja, Thor, Saturn, etc, continually and actively try and suborn my secular government, I'll be sure to complain about the days of the week.

Which, makes me wonder if Romney sat around before the election trying to decide which month should be named after him, so he could be remembered like Augustus Ceasar. Because frankly, all the shiat that's come out post election makes me think he thought of himself that way. And that's not even talking The Lord of the rings style white horse prophecy silliness.

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

The religious arguments are cute and all, but the actual lesson to be learned here is that people's tastes and moods change over time, both as individuals and as a society. The change doesn't necessarily invalidate either condition,old or new.

Uncle Tractor:xanadian: A little of both. So Santa Monica had to put both of them in time-out.

What did those atheists do besides set up displays?

See now, if it were me, and I had been in Vix's place, I would've made a display about the REAL origins of Christmas as we know it. Educate the populace some. But, hey, trolling the Christians is fine, too.

IMO trying to educate certain kinds of christian is no better than trolling them, and from what I can tell, they were trolled HARD.

I have to admit, even if Vix had done an elaborate display on the origins of Christmas, I think the end result would've been the same.

*sigh*

Again, still doesn't make what he DID do any less dickish. He could've been the bigger man. But, he decided to stoop to their level.

cman:Wait until atheists hear that the names of the days of the week are of religious origin. That would be a fun lawsuit.

Named after Roman gods, I believe...No, wait, Norse gods. I think (for example) Friday was based off of "Freyr's Day" or something.

DerAppie:xanadian: The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

If they did it to get equal time they should have picked another date. Putting Poseidon or FSM displays up right next to those of the Christians is just juvenile behaviour. Almost as if the best way to protest that they could come up with was similar to the kid with his finger hovering an inch from your forehead while claiming "I'm not touching you!" Just let them have their fun for a month or two and pick another period of similar length to put up your own display. But no one is interested in doing that because the drama would only be half of what can be generated in December.

I have to disagree with the last bit. I think atheists having their displays up during the Xmas season is perfectly fine, if it serves a purpose other than just trolling. Like the historical aspects of Christmas I mentioned in my previous posts: about how it's a pagan holiday co-opted by the Catholics of the day. And even then, I'm sure that's only part of the story.

cman:Yes, religion has had it's moments where evil was all over. But, without religion, culturally we would not be where we are.

We would have been exactly were we are now -- minus some of the wars and genocides. No Holocaust, none of the ME BS, and the WTC would still be standing.

The great masterpieces of art in our past have a religious background. From the sphinx in Egypt to the statutes of Buhda (can't spell, sorry) in Asia, to the Stonehenge in England to the Sistine chapel, to the great mosques of Saudi Arabia to the Native American burial grounds,

Instead, we would have had great masterpieces from a secular background. People with wealth and power like showing off. For the most part of our history, that means clergy or people who pander to them.

StrangeQ:cassanovascotian: The difference is that, unlike you, they have a holiday they want to celebrate by putting up some decorations and making something pretty to look at.

Then celebrate the original secular intent. Put up wreaths. Put up garland. Adorn evergreen boughs with ornaments in a celebration of the turning of the season and the return of spring. Because that is what it was and that is what is happening.

Even more fun is how the original original intent of Christmas was the pagan holiday known as Yuletide. It's just that, once again, a bunch of old white guys got their hands on it and tied Jesus's birth to it to make Christianity more palatable to the pagans.

Uncle Tractor:cassanovascotian: It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Uh, I got the impression the conflict was escalated by the christians who vandalized the trollery displays. Blaming the atheists for this seems a bit off the mark.

A little of both. So Santa Monica had to put both of them in time-out.

See now, if it were me, and I had been in Vix's place, I would've made a display about the REAL origins of Christmas as we know it. Educate the populace some. But, hey, trolling the Christians is fine, too.

And, to be frank, I would've probably lol'd hard at the Pastafarian display.

xanadian:The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

If they did it to get equal time they should have picked another date. Putting Poseidon or FSM displays up right next to those of the Christians is just juvenile behaviour. Almost as if the best way to protest that they could come up with was similar to the kid with his finger hovering an inch from your forehead while claiming "I'm not touching you!" Just let them have their fun for a month or two and pick another period of similar length to put up your own display. But no one is interested in doing that because the drama would only be half of what can be generated in December.

cassanovascotian:StrangeQ: It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting the poor Christians.

It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Really? So they can't enjoy the holiday unless they get to monopolize a swath of city property in order to proselytize their superstition to as many people willing and unwilling as possible?

cassanovascotian:It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Uh, I got the impression the conflict was escalated by the christians who vandalized the trollery displays. Blaming the atheists for this seems a bit off the mark.

Ihaveanevilparrot:jso2897: Maybe. I am deeply suspicious of "false flag" explanations - their track record of turning out to be true is very poor. I'm not saying it never happens, but the vast majority of the time it is just deflection.

The track record isn't that poor. Like the recent case where the Lesbian cut herself up to try and make everyone think she was attacked by vicious homophobes.There are MANY cases of such things.

I'm not saying that was necessarily the case here, just that there's no proof that the Christians did it either, from what I can see, so it's just as ludacris to go blaming them.

IMO, most likely it was just regular old vandalism with no agenda at all. It's a major city and kids fark shiat up. Even fairly non-religious kids may have issues in the back of their mind with vandalising Jesus, so the atheist displays were a better target. Doesn't mean some kind of Christian anti-atheist agenda is automatically to blame.

Without proof, it's just a way for both sides to point fingers at each other, no matter who did it.

So pretty much the only time in the long history of this tradition that vandalism became a big problem, just happens to coincide with Christian poutrage over having to share space with atheists, but to you that spells "random vandalism".

StrangeQ:Is there something in the Bible that prevented the Christians from doing the same?

Nope. The religious people got trolled super hard. Still doesn't make what Vix did any less dickish.

/actually, there IS something in the Bible, which is why I'm surprised why the Christians didn't think of it sooner//like I said, Jesus had a LOT to say about the religious establishment of the time///Christians would probably be the ones to crucify him today :P

StrangeQ:It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting the poor Christians.

It has to do with a bunch of Atheists going super-troll and putting up displays for no reason other than to make a public "fark you" , and escalating a conflict to the point where nobody gets to enjoy the holiday.

Being a dick is being a dick, even if you happen to sympathize with their non-beliefs.

jso2897:Actually, it would be OK with me if people of different faiths (or lack thereof) expressed their views in public space - as long as they could play nice. But they never can

Bingo.

And this is why the city stopped it altogether. Not because they're persecuting Christians, but because you can't put a bunch of different faiths and beliefs in one place without someone being an asshole. That's why it's a bad idea to have religious displays of any kind in public areas. SOMEONE is going to get butthurt.

This is what started the fight last year. Christians were angry they didn't get to monopolize the displays as they had for nearly 60 years.

"Officials used a lottery to dole out spots in the prime location along Ocean Avenue. The atheists turned out to be the lucky ones: Of the 21 plots in the park open for displays, they won 18. The Nativity story that once took 14 displays to tell - from the Annunciation, continuing to the manger in Bethlehem and onto infant Jesus' journey to Egypt and back to Nazareth - had to be abridged to three and crammed into two plots."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/12/atheists-hijack-christm a s-nativity-display-in-santa-monica-critics-say.html

Yes, the Christians were trolled big time, and it was their stupid fault they reacted by vandalizing the other displays. Now, no one gets to play.

Happy Hours:Interesting perspective. So any minor vandalism should be enough to quash free speech? Do you really think most Christians were in favor of vandalizing the displays of others? That's almost like saying all Muslims are terrorists because a handful of them commit acts of terrorism.

You're trying to turn this into an inquisition when it is nothing of the sort. Ever heard the expression one bad apple ruins the bunch? It doesn't matter that most people are probably perfectly fine with the displays, religious or not. What matters is that the city knows that if the displays are allowed to be erected again this year there will likely be more vandalism with the possibility of escalation to the point that the police need to be involved. In lieu of this they have decided to cancel the whole thing and avoid the hassle. It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting the poor Christians.

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

Let's see if I get this right:

Telling me I'm going to burn in a fiery pit for all of eternity = free speech

Truth as you see it. You don't have all the answers and neither does anybody else. These people believe in some shiat that you don't believe in. You disagree about what the "truth" is, and nobody really knows for sure.

The difference is that, unlike you, they have a holiday they want to celebrate by putting up some decorations and making something pretty to look at.

The Atheist organizations for trolling instead of demonstrating their rights in an adult manner. Something like "We believe in the freedom not to believe,", with some kind non-religious, perhaps science oriented mural or picture (Maybe that old pic of Einstein and all the other scientists gathered for a picture) would have demonstrated their attitude toward religion, and the fact that there are other things to find interest in, while still remaining mature and sensitive toward the other people putting up displays. Maybe with some quotes from philosophers that aren't blatantly mocking our hostile toward religious people, but are more about people's right to be non-religious.Instead they put up a bunch of meme's and trollworthy pictures and quotes, which makes us atheists that just want to keep to ourselves and be free to avoid religious activities look like a bunch of farking intolerant assholes.

The Christians groups are a bunch of big babies, because their religious freedoms aren't being quashed by not being able to put up a nativity scene in a public park. IMO, none of the groups should be putting up blatantly religious themed displays in public areas, and they are still left free to practice their religion without being able to do so. Saying "This is a shame that not everyone could act in a mature and adult manner," is one thing, but going to court as if they're being persecuted is ridiculous. And comparing the nativity scene to Jesus having nowhere to go? They are PLASTIC statues. Dramatizing much?

As far as the vandalism, is there even any proof the Christian groups did it? Kids vandalize shiat all the time, and they probably knew they'd get more flack if they were caught vandalizing Jesus, than some random internet memes. Or maybe they knew the Christian groups would get pointed at and blamed, and they could sit back and watch the hilarity that ensued. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the atheists did it themselves for that reason, the same way religious people have been caught vandalizing their own stuff to make it look like some hate group did it. This atheist group seems like a bunch of trolling assholes, so why not assume that?

Wait a second, some of you people actually think atheists don't believe in god because we want everybody else to be miserable? Jeese all this time I thought I was an atheist because I actually think for myself and refused to believe in quite obvious fairy tales.

mamoru:Happy Hours: Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

You see, there wouldn't be an issue if the Christians hadn't vandalized the displays that Atheists, also expressing their very equal first amendment rights, put up. It's a public space. The Christians do not get special privileges for their displays over those of other faiths or lack thereof.

But since the Christians went and vandalized the other displays, the city decided to cancel the whole thing rather than have the same kind of trouble this year. Now, the city's decision to try to avoid conflict may not be the correct decision, but don't blame the atheists for putting them in the position they were in to make such a decision.

How do you know the vandalism was done by christians? Plenty of people have vandalized their own homes/businesses/religious buildings to get sympathy or start trouble.

If you believed a little harder that you were worshipping the right God you might be a little more secure in your beliefs and the promise of happiness and eternal life and wouldn't let a bunch of low-grade pranksters get the best of you.

And 60 years is not a tradition. I appreciate that you live in California and anything older than 21 is old and used up. However in most parts of the world there are national treasures that provided a historical link to their embryonic beginning that were under rubble for ten times as long as that and they managed to figure out a way to make it through the day.

Suck it up. Hang some lights. And understand that taking the high road often times may lead you to the satisfaction of unifying EVERYONE unless you're just a small-minded twunt who gets up every day with nothing else but the chip on their shoulder that they've managed to show up regularly somewhere on Sunday mornings.

Missing from the courtroom drama will be Vix and his fellow atheists, who are not parties to the case. Their role outside court highlights a tactical shift as atheists evolve into a vocal minority eager to get their non-beliefs into the public square as never before

Oh goodie. The militant atheists have all left the bar and are hitting the streets.

/you're not helping

Happy Hours:Eat More Possum: You want a religious scene up? Put it up on your own land

I'm pretty sure religious speech is covered by the First Amendment. This point was that not only can the government not impose a religion on anyone, they also cannot stop you from practicing your religion.

You militant atheists are assholes

The question becomes: are these churches putting up their religious stuff on government property (i.e., city hall grounds)? Then it runs afoul of a government purporting to favor one religion (or non-religion) over another. Hence, why the atheists have put up their OWN displays.

It's still not helping, though. Sometimes, just let the baby have its bottle.

I want to put up a scene about the conception, but the city wouldn't let me.

They were all like, "Mary was a virgin, she wouldn't do double penetration on her first time." I still think God could have talked her into it.

Do get me started on my portrayal of Jesus crowning, the didn't want that scene either. The Jesus the stupid Catholics use looks like a three month old, not a newborn. You'd think they'd know what one looks like with the way the shiat them out.

SnarfVader:Here we go again. Hurr Durr "War on Christmas" derpy derp derpity doo! Normally, I like this time of year. But these douchebags who insist I celebrate the season their way are getting to be intolerable, for Christ's sake.