Macrumors clearly knows nothing of the subject if they would even hint that anyone could think the new Motion is any kind of replacement....

Ollarin

07-30-2009, 06:20 PM

I could have sworn they said they won't develop it any further a few years ago. :surprised

EDIT:
but the release of Shake 4.1 in mid-2006 was accompanied by the announcement that no further software updates were planned.
Ah! my bad, missed that. :p

jfrancis

07-30-2009, 06:33 PM

The 'buy now' store link is dead

http://www.apple.com/search/store/?q=shake

ulb

07-30-2009, 06:38 PM

It is not a real surprise knowing what they said in 2006, but I will never forgive apple of killing such a good product. It is a complete scandal that this kind of things can happen.

Damn I hate the guys responsible of this ultra-lame marketing strategy.

Shame on you apple.

robgeddes

07-30-2009, 06:44 PM

Had to happen eventually. I agree that it's a shame though. Does this mean the Phenomenon rumours will finally go away? :D

Nuke has been growing by leaps and bounds in the meantime, and it's an incredible product. It's obviously not at the same price point as Shake, but for a freelancer it's still within reach after a few gigs.

John-S

07-30-2009, 07:04 PM

I could have sworn they said they won't develop it any further a few years ago. :surprised

EDIT:

Ah! my bad, missed that. :p
Yes, they said there would be no more updates to "Shake" but they also said this:

Apple will no longer be selling maintenance for Shake and no further software updates are planned as we begin work on the next generation of Shake compositing software.
They also mentioned somewhere in the shake product pages I believe (gone now) that the replacement software to shake will be very similar in the way it works currently. IOW... your training and knowledge won't be pointless if you purchase the $499 version.

Seraca

07-30-2009, 07:23 PM

but I will never forgive apple of killing such a good product. It is a complete scandal that this kind of things can happen.

Damn I hate the guys responsible of this ultra-lame marketing strategy.

HATE?? ..ummm Why?.. if Nuke is all people say it is then go $$Buy$$ it instead

Well I see NO reason to suddenly Stop Using My seat of 4.1
it not as though all seats of Shake worldwide will all be "Confiscated" from our Application folders or suddenly uninstall themselves.
I personally dont Fret about the Future of any Software Application
I just use what gets the job done for my business as long as My OS supports it

Cheers

ulb

07-30-2009, 07:34 PM

HATE?? ..ummm Why?.. if Nuke is all people say it is then go $$Buy$$ it instead

Well I see NO reason to suddenly Stop Using My seat of 4.1
it not as though all seats of Shake worldwide will all be "Confiscated" from our Application folders or suddenly uninstall themselves.
I personally dont Fret about the Future of any Software Application
I just use what gets the job done for my business as long as My OS supports it

CheersI don't own shake, I am using nuke at work and love it. But I think shake was a great product and it is a really bad thing to see it disappear. Of course shake still works at the moment, but in a few years it will be obsolete as it will never support newer technologies or formats.

Can you imagine if Autodesk kills XSI? Of course the other products would be able to do the job, but it would still be a terrible thing to do.

Venkman

07-30-2009, 07:51 PM

Things like this make me wonder what in the world Apple is doing. Why did Apple bother to purchase shake in the first place? Perhaps only Steve Jobs knows.

They have pro machines that are very expensive, but very competitive in price (I'm talking Mac Pros only here, where they are cheaper than Boxx and competitive with HP), and I feel their pro apps are floundering a bit. The logic users have a lot to be happy about after the last update (or so I'm told), but I don't have a real feeling that the pro apps are going anywhere.

Their consumer products are really flying off the shelves, but I'd hate to see the pro market on Apple's disappear. I just don't like using Windows...

cheebamonkey

07-30-2009, 08:04 PM

aww poor Shake.. yay Nuke! The writing was on the wall years ago. Not surprised at all.

As Apple sinks more and more into an entertainment gadget company....

Genesis

07-30-2009, 08:07 PM

This sucks. Shame on Apple.

Seraca

07-30-2009, 08:21 PM

I don't own shake, I am using nuke at work and love it. But I think shake was a great product and it is a really bad thing to see it disappear. Of course shake still works at the moment, but in a few years it will be obsolete as it will never support newer technologies or formats.

.

You Dont use shake??...so what your beef here??

I didnt use "truespace" and certainly did not give a hoot when Microsoft bought & killed it

Again how has it disappeared?
and BTW if open EXR ,Digital movie footage in general; ,alpha channels,Jpegs, targa, tiff & PSD, Ramping ,Footage stabilization,color keying& Grading etc etc all get replaced by "newer technologies"in a few years we will all have to pay more money to buy new upgraded software. so what's the big deal.
People are reacting a though apple bought "The Grand Canyon"
and proceeded to back fill it with concrete and closed the park to visitors for ever.
Sorry but I am not seeing the great Moral Atrocity here
I dont expect any one type of software to last the rest of my life they come and go.:rolleyes:

Cheers

ArtOfSoulburn

07-30-2009, 08:23 PM

Well I see NO reason to suddenly Stop Using My seat of 4.1
it not as though all seats of Shake worldwide will all be "Confiscated" from our Application folders or suddenly uninstall themselves.

Well, I assume the point is that the next time you buy a new computer, you'll have trouble moving your license over. And so you're not just stuck using shake, but stuck using that computer as long as the computer's hardware doesn't die.

Or are shake licenses easy to migrate from one computer to another?

I was really bummed when I found out cdilla doesn't work on 64bit machines, and now have to keep around a whole computer for those few times a year I need access to max 5.

- Neil

ArtOfSoulburn

07-30-2009, 08:28 PM

I dont expect any one type of software to last the rest of my life they come and go.:rolleyes:

True, but it does suck when some feature or way of doing something disappears from the software community. There are plenty of cool and useful things that old obsolete pieces of software do that have never been replicated in newer software, and it's frustrating when something that used to take 2 steps now takes 20 in a new piece of software.

- Neil

Genesis

07-30-2009, 08:30 PM

Shake is a fantastic compositing solution and was at a great price. Take this away and it is a large blow to many businesses.

Price of entry for compositing just went up big time.

scrimski

07-30-2009, 08:33 PM

Actually not. Apple performed some marketing fuzz in order to sell more hardware - Shake for MacOS + a new MacPro is way cheaper than the linux version alone - but if I remember right, prices for Fusion and AE were the quite the same a few years ago, not to mention Autodesk FFI.

But agreed, it's a shame.

Seraca

07-30-2009, 08:40 PM

Well, I assume the point is that the next time you buy a new computer, you'll have trouble moving your license over. And so you're not just stuck using shake, but stuck using that computer as long as the computer's hardware doesn't die.
Or are shake licenses easy to migrate from one computer to another?

- Neil

the $500 shake is Complete single user license
transferable to any computer
with unlimited network render nodes.

Perhaps a good business strategy for Apple, but bad for our industry. I wonder if this means Nuke's pricing will now increase...

ulb

07-30-2009, 09:16 PM

You Dont use shake??...so what your beef here??

I didnt use "truespace" and certainly did not give a hoot when Microsoft bought & killed it

Again how has it disappeared?
and BTW if open EXR ,Digital movie footage in general; ,alpha channels,Jpegs, targa, tiff & PSD, Ramping ,Footage stabilization,color keying& Grading etc etc all get replaced by "newer technologies"in a few years we will all have to pay more money to buy new upgraded software. so what's the big deal.
People are reacting a though apple bought "The Grand Canyon"
and proceeded to back fill it with concrete and closed the park to visitors for ever.
Sorry but I am not seeing the great Moral Atrocity here
I dont expect any one type of software to last the rest of my life they come and go.:rolleyes:

Cheers
So for you shake didn't need any improvement? And no new technologies in image manipulation will ever appear?

I can't understand how you can accept that a software you think is so perfect can be put to death like a rabid dog. This software had a role in the compositing industry, and was a good foundation that could have been useful for many many years.

I would have been interested in shake if it had not been discontinued, and the fact that I'm not using it doesn't matter. I will never use it, I will never be able to buy it, and I will never be able to see the wonderful improvements that would have come if it had not been discontinued.

That is a real shame, and this is a complete disregard for the interests of the customers. Of course life continues and so on, but you can't say that this kind of marketing decision doesn't harm the industry.

Seraca

07-30-2009, 09:23 PM

Price of entry for compositing just went up big time.

Really?? from my Shake EULA: " You may, however, make a one-time permanent transfer of all of your license rights to the Apple Software to another party, provided that: (a) the transfer must include all of the Apple Software, including all its component parts, original media, and this License; (b) you do not retain any copies of the Apple Software, full or partial, including copies stored on a computer or other storage device; and (c) the
party receiving the Apple Software reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this License."

Look for a flood of Cheap Shake Licenses on Ebay
and Craiglist.

and frankly it would not surprise me to see shake become Freeware as part of some Apple promotion soon. either way this mighty useful App will not vanish from the planet any time soon.

Cheers

DuttyFoot

07-30-2009, 09:23 PM

It is not a real surprise knowing what they said in 2006, but I will never forgive apple of killing such a good product. It is a complete scandal that this kind of things can happen.

wow, its really a shame that they bought shake, discontinued the windows version and then killed it. i remember when i read how they were discontinuing shake, and the first thing i thought was why did they buy it in the first place. like someone said, thank god AD picked up maya and xsi because if it wasn't doing what apple wanted they would probably axe it too.

Genesis

07-30-2009, 09:32 PM

Seraca, I see what you are saying, but businesses don't generally buy software licences off ebay.

Shake disappearing is a big deal, After Effects can do a lot and is not too expensive, however for large complex comps it becomes a nightmare to manage.

There is no real option for businesses other than buying something a lot more expensive for any compositing expansion.
Of course if Shake did become freeware, huge win. In fact if it was freeware and a pre-cursor to a new app that worked in the same way, it would be a fantastic method to expand the user base and hurt the competition.

Seraca

07-30-2009, 09:40 PM

"So for you shake didn't need any improvement?"
Where did I say that??

"And no new technologies in image manipulation will ever appear?"
again Where did I say that??

"I can't understand how you can accept that a software you think is so perfect can be put to death like a rabid dog. "
Never said shake was perfect ...oh and a Dead rabid Dog cant expect to be resold....A shake license can.

"This software had a role in the compositing industry,"
Still does sir, my copy hasn't vanished into thin air

"and was a good foundation that could have been useful for many many years."
you actually make my point for me about running your current license until all of the major image/video formats evolve into forms old Shake can no longer read many years from now .

"I would have been interested in shake if it had not been discontinued, and the fact that I'm not using it doesn't matter. I will never use it, I will never be able to buy it,"

Ummmm...Why not?? Used Shake 4.1 licenses are legal to sell.
beside you have access to the mighty Nuke your Future looks peachy how are you harmed be all this?

Cheers

Seraca

07-30-2009, 09:51 PM

"I see what you are saying, but businesses don't generally buy software licences off ebay. .....There is no real option for businesses other than buying something a lot more expensive for any compositing expansion."

Well any serious business that sat on the fence for the last TWO years while shake was $499 and the Compositing Community was buzzing about it's impending "death" will have to get used to the Idea of Shopping for a License on Ebay IMHO.

And any newcomers to any industry always have to live with what is available at the point they enter the industry.
not what used to be sold & supported.

Cheers

TAVO

07-30-2009, 10:34 PM

they should release the Source Code to the public and maybe Shake can live longer than expected today.

ArtOfSoulburn

07-30-2009, 10:49 PM

the $500 shake is Complete single user license
transferable to any computer
with unlimited network render nodes.

But is it transferable without the need to call or reauth with apple? Because I could imagine a situation where apple no longer supports shake, and so will no longer support moving licenses.

- Neil

Seraca

07-30-2009, 10:57 PM

But is it transferable without the need to call or reauth with apple?

- Neil

yep it is.

Cheers

Genesis

07-30-2009, 11:11 PM

Seraca, I think you are missing the point. I am not asking for upgrades or support. Just to keep being able to buy a product that works and uses a good work-flow, for a good price, to do the job many people to use it to do.

Now they have to pay more for something else and anyone unlike yourself who is already set, is out of luck. That sucks.

DoubleSupercool

07-30-2009, 11:29 PM

The only thing I can say is that if you are a freelancer of any kind, grab a copy if you see it in store. For $500 it is extremely powerful and versatile. I do most of my photo editing in Shake now because I hate using PS layers ;p

Apoclypse

07-31-2009, 12:06 AM

I think like most here we are feeling abandoned by Apple and their current pro app strategy (if there is one, seems like they are slowly backign away). Now that Apple has found success with consumers they probably feel that pros aren't necessary anymore, even though it was the professional community that kept them afloat all those year when no one was even looking at Apple. Now that they have the consumer buying their stuff they don't feel the need to support the community that has supported them.

One can only hope that Apple really does have something in the works. There pro app dev team is probably strained and stretched too thin due to the fact that Apple like to eat their own dog food and any new technology they try to use in their applications the pro apps are usually the best proving grounds for these things, and a fully opencl and grandcentralized compositing application doesn't sound bad at all. There are other factors as well such as Shake using carbon (I think) and Apple trying very hard to move to Cocoa so that all their apps can take advantage of their new apis.

Logic is a good example. The application got a bit of an upgrade but all they really did was bring Logic's functionality on par with other DAWs on the market. Some of the plugins in the application haven't had an update since before they gobbled the application up. Their sampler is in desperate need of an overhaul. The application is still slow and buggy and it won't support 64 bits until it fully makes the transition to cocoa if it even has any cocoa code in it. The same for FCP (I think) and Shake would have had the same issues as well. So while Logic did get upgraded its almost the are minimum a company can do. The issue is that no one can realy compete with a their prices and the shear amount of features you get for those prices. $499 for what Logic Studio gives you is the best bang for buck package on the market in their category, nothing else comes close, on any platform.

ArtOfSoulburn

07-31-2009, 12:34 AM

yep it is.

Cool. Good to know. That should give the program a few more years in terms of usage, at least until some OS incompatability happens in the far flung future.

- Neil

ArtOfSoulburn

07-31-2009, 12:36 AM

The only thing I can say is that if you are a freelancer of any kind, grab a copy if you see it in store. For $500 it is extremely powerful and versatile. I do most of my photo editing in Shake now because I hate using PS layers ;p

I keep asking adobe for shake like schematic editing inside photoshop as an alternative to the the current 2d layering system. Alas, I don't think there's enough people who would use it to make it worth Adobe's time implementing it. But I'd use the hell out of it.

- Neil

Kabab

07-31-2009, 01:28 AM

I've said this a few times and gotten flamed...

Apple is a consumer goods company there is really no value for Apple to develop and support pro app's any more.

Anyway Siggraph is just around the corner lets see what surprises await ;)

Kabab

07-31-2009, 01:33 AM

I keep asking adobe for shake like schematic editing inside photoshop as an alternative to the the current 2d layering system. Alas, I don't think there's enough people who would use it to make it worth Adobe's time implementing it. But I'd use the hell out of it.

- Neil
http://www.mapzoneeditor.com/ Is pretty dam cool! More for games but..

luceric

07-31-2009, 02:08 AM

In reply to Seraca (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=386413)
The fact that the shake license is transferable is not really the point, I'm going to clarify that because I believe it's been missed:

tend to break with operating systems updates. Therefore, in a few years you may not be able to run the software on a newer machine.

Shake is not exactly a great Mac software to begin with and Apple isn't going to be doing any hacks in the OS to keep it running

Seraca

07-31-2009, 02:30 AM

In reply to Seraca (http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=386413)
The fact that the shake license is transferable is not really the point, I'm going to clarify that because I believe it's been missed:

tend to break with operating systems updates. Therefore, in a few years you may not be able to run the software on a newer machine.

YA but right now I dont have any comp jobs in the pipline that i will render the finals "in a few years"

So Im good for now

but thanks.

Cheers

DoubleSupercool

07-31-2009, 02:34 AM

I keep asking adobe for shake like schematic editing inside photoshop as an alternative to the the current 2d layering system. Alas, I don't think there's enough people who would use it to make it worth Adobe's time implementing it. But I'd use the hell out of it.

- Neil

I've been keeping an eye on this one:

http://www.naked.la/light/ (http://www.naked.la/light/%20)

for Mac, and a quick search turned up this new one:

http://imageflow.danielsenff.de/imagej/Imageflow.html

Kaptain Kubrick

07-31-2009, 04:12 AM

free node based compositor (http://www.blender.org)

win/linux/mac

R10k

07-31-2009, 05:27 AM

"Shake can't run on an iPhone, so Apple doesn't need it anymore."

LOL... that is funny.

morimitsu

07-31-2009, 06:10 AM

I was wondering why Apple did not sell Shake to any company that would be interested in developing it further, instead of just stop developing it.

Simon Wicker

07-31-2009, 06:45 AM

apple did sell the shake code to anyone that was interested - many companies bought the source code from apple years ago so they could customise shake and keep it going (hence the reason there are several variants of 64bit shake in use around the big shake based vfx companies even though there is no official 64bit version of shake available).

cheers, simon w.

R10k

07-31-2009, 07:29 AM

What was the state of the Linux version? I know it remained at a high price (obviously to help the Mac version sell Apple hardware) but I never did hear about anyone using it.

ndeboar

07-31-2009, 08:48 AM

Ha. People kept telling me that Pixar and Apple where working on some amazing new verison of Shake, and i kept telling them that they where "craaazy".

And I was right, ha!

Can everyone just move over to Nuke now, please?

Nicko

Seraca

07-31-2009, 12:45 PM

And I was right, ha!

Can everyone just move over to Nuke now, please?

Nicko

Sure thing, as soon as you hand me over the $3500
USD and the $1000 for the MANDATORY first year "Support" license.
I can accept paypal or Cash
Thanks

SeaJackal

07-31-2009, 12:59 PM

What was the state of the Linux version? I know it remained at a high price (obviously to help the Mac version sell Apple hardware) but I never did hear about anyone using it.

At work we only use Shake on linux. I guess that is the statuss for most VFX houses

robgeddes

07-31-2009, 01:51 PM

I keep asking adobe for shake like schematic editing inside photoshop as an alternative to the the current 2d layering system. Alas, I don't think there's enough people who would use it to make it worth Adobe's time implementing it. But I'd use the hell out of it.

- Neil

Neil,

Have you seen Conduit?
http://dvgarage.com/prod/prod.php?prod=conduit2

It runs as a plugin, so not natively within the PS interface, but it's pretty solid nodal compositing.

-Rob

ArtOfSoulburn

07-31-2009, 05:18 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions on node based comp/paint packages.

To be clear though, I am not just looking for a new paint program that has a schematic editor. I am looking for photoshop to have a schematic editor. Photoshop has a LOT of really useful features in it that no other paint package has, and so if I have to choose between all those features and schematic editing, I'll stick with the other features.

I took a peak at Conduit, and it is cool, but again, it's rather limited in scope unfortunately. I would guess that you'd really need this to be a part of the base package and not a plugin to have full support.

I know, I'm being really picky :)

- Neil

Kai01W

07-31-2009, 06:20 PM

What was the state of the Linux version? I know it remained at a high price (obviously to help the Mac version sell Apple hardware) but I never did hear about anyone using it.

Actually I worked way more with shake on linux than on mac (but I haven't worked for so many different companies recently). I felt the linux version was slightly faster (especially in I/O related things) but I could be wrong, was a very subjective impression.

-k

Seraca

07-31-2009, 09:58 PM

Actually that Conduit looks kinda of cool
seems to have potential.

Cheers

mv

07-31-2009, 10:48 PM

I keep asking adobe for shake like schematic editing inside photoshop as an alternative to the the current 2d layering system. Alas, I don't think there's enough people who would use it to make it worth Adobe's time implementing it. But I'd use the hell out of it.

- Neil

Oh yes. I want that too.

DoubleSupercool

08-01-2009, 01:47 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions on node based comp/paint packages.

To be clear though, I am not just looking for a new paint program that has a schematic editor. I am looking for photoshop to have a schematic editor. Photoshop has a LOT of really useful features in it that no other paint package has, and so if I have to choose between all those features and schematic editing, I'll stick with the other features.

The problem is that Adobe is wedded to the "layers" concept and to change from that is akin to throwing out the entire basis of the application and changing mindsets. I mean, look at the interface of any Adobe product . . . they are completely hopeless and unintuitive. If they can't create an intutive interface, what chance have the got of creating an intuitive workflow?

When you are dealing with complicated comps or photo edits/matte paintings, the layer concept breaks down with work arounds like pre-comps and nested layer sets.

Once you have worked with a schematic/procedural interface, layers are incredibly frustrating and restrictive. At least they are to me!

ArtOfSoulburn

08-01-2009, 04:52 PM

The problem is that Adobe is wedded to the "layers" concept and to change from that is akin to throwing out the entire basis of the application and changing mindsets.

Well, I don't feel they have to "Change" to a schematic editor, that will certainly never happen, they just need to provide it as an alternative workflow. Everything you can visualize in a schematic editor can be visualized as a 2d stack, it may not be very pretty, but that's fine. People doing simpler comps can keep using the 2d layer system, and people trying to do stuff that's more complex will eventually get frustrated trying to view it in ayers and learn how to use the schematic editor.

Perhaps it's a philosophy issue as to why they don't add the feature, but personally I think it's more a money thing, to make a change that big requires them to feel they'll get a good return on their investment. I doubt they'd do it for the 10 or so large fx houses who would want it. We need to persuade the photograph people to want it, then they'll have a large enough user base clammering for it that they may undertake adding the feature.

- Neil

andrewhake

08-02-2009, 05:40 AM

Am I the only one that sees this as a possible step forward to a new Compositing system from Apple? Apple isn't in the business of buying software and kiling it, especially software like Shake that has made a huge mark on the industry.

The time is right with the recent update to its other Pro apps to release a brand new dedicated compositing system. Atleast I hope thats the case, Apple is not going to abandon its high end crowd.

I really want them to develop a proper animation package with their fantastic sense of usability. And maybe a little Pixar love.

techmage

08-02-2009, 08:09 AM

all hail fusion

ArtOfSoulburn

08-02-2009, 05:28 PM

Am I the only one that sees this as a possible step forward to a new Compositing system from Apple? Apple isn't in the business of buying software and kiling it, especially software like Shake that has made a huge mark on the industry.

The actual market for highend compositing software is tiny compared to the market for stuff like the iphone/ipod. I just can't see apple investing a lot of time or money into something they may sell a few thousand licenses of when they could focus on their core business of selling tens of millions of ipods.

- Neil

Seraca

08-02-2009, 05:47 PM

The actual market for highend compositing software is tiny compared to the market for stuff like the iphone/ipod. I just can't see apple investing a lot of time or money into something they may sell a few thousand licenses of when they could focus on their core business of selling tens of millions of ipods.

- Neil

Honestly I tend to Agree with that
Many "pro users" seem to have this Disdain for the Ipod/Iphone Crowd but it is those people who have Made Apple
$$$Wealthy$$ enough to keep up the Development of our Superior OS and well Crafted ,Largely Hassle free ,hardware.

Cheers

luceric

08-02-2009, 06:08 PM

Am I the only one that sees this as a possible step forward to a new Compositing system from Apple?
here is a tweet from the creator of shake
Always been a bit amazed/amused that people continued to hope for a Shake replacement from Apple. Maybe, finally, they'll accept reality :-) (http://twitter.com/ronbrinkmann/status/2943137747)

John-S

08-02-2009, 06:31 PM

Does the creator of shake have any dealings with apple still? How would he know anything about it anymore?

I think its the fact that Apple put a redirect to FCS that mostly assures us of no new software coming...

luceric

08-02-2009, 06:50 PM

Shake developement ended late 2005 and the product's end publically announced in 2006. Developers were moved to other things. People who know people at Apple in the pro group tell you there is nothing in the works.

Some of Apple's competitors were floating rumors at NAB that FCP is also for sale...since these were guys who sell high-end workstations running other platforms that certainly could have just been competitive sales BS, but if true certainly seems to indicate Apple wants out of the Pro software business.

Cheesestraws

08-02-2009, 07:00 PM

Does the creator of shake have any dealings with apple still? How would he know anything about it anymore?

I think when he left he said it should be taken as an indication of the his belief in Apple coming up with a Shake replacement.

cheebamonkey

08-02-2009, 08:05 PM

Am I the only one that sees this as a possible step forward to a new Compositing system from Apple? Apple isn't in the business of buying software and kiling it, especially software like Shake that has made a huge mark on the industry.

The time is right with the recent update to its other Pro apps to release a brand new dedicated compositing system. Atleast I hope thats the case, Apple is not going to abandon its high end crowd.

I really want them to develop a proper animation package with their fantastic sense of usability. And maybe a little Pixar love.

heh I do love the fans who think that Apple should create software for each market and how it would simply be killer just because Apple does it.

:rolleyes:

John-S

08-02-2009, 09:09 PM

heh I do love the fans who think that Apple should create software for each market and how it would simply be killer just because Apple does it.

:rolleyes:
Um, maybe because every pro app that apple has brought to the market has been a killer app! It's not about apple fanboyism... its about a track record.

Apple bought Shake. Shake was the driving force behind many studios and oscars.

Apple purchased and developed all the Final Cut Studio software. All industry standard killer apps.

Apple Logic... most talked about and used app in the music industry as far as I know.

Apple Aperture... almost a first of its kind that gave Adobe a quick run for their money. Now Aperture vs Lightroom is debatable but its still a solid killer app in the pro industry.

So I'm not saying that there aren't programs that can hold their own and people love just as much such as Nuke, Adobe Products, etc but Apple has earned their spot for people like me to assume... the next pro app they develop will be just as good.

ulb

08-02-2009, 09:23 PM

Um, maybe because every pro app that apple has brought to the market has been a killer app! It's not about apple fanboyism... its about a track record.

Apple bought Shake. Shake was the driving force behind many studios and oscars.
What I remember:

What I remember:
-Apple buys shake.
-Apple kills the windows version of shake. (great job Apple, thank you)
-Apple stops developping shake. (great job Apple, thank you)
-Apple sells the linux version of shake (wich was the last useful version from my pov) at 10 times the price of the mac version. (great job Apple, thank you)
-Apple kills shake. (great job Apple, thank you)
Now keep talking about Apple and pro apps. btw, Apple also bough the Chalice (http://news.cnet.com/Apple-buys-video-effects-technology/2100-1023_3-935796.html)and RayZ (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5933)compositors from Silicon Grail and canned these Shake-competitors immediately. (never told clients, however, and never disclosed officially the acquisition as you can see in that second article did not know of it)

It was a little on the fanboy revisionism side for the other poster to imply that Apple made Shake and Logic into an Oscar success. Both products were 100% developed and at their peak when acquired and have not significantly change since. They were also both available on Windows (Logic had 40% of its user base there)

IMHO Apple bought these products, and later made Motion and Apperture, I believe to make sure that developers would keep making and improving their software on the Mac. It's no longer necessary, and I think their interest has waned. Around that time, Apple had a bunch of people courting high end 3D companies like Softimage to port their app to the Mac. A couple of year laters, all of these people were laid off; this was a market that wasn't strategic enough

Simon Wicker

08-02-2009, 09:51 PM

apple didn't stop developing shake. 3.0. 3.5, 4.0 and 4.1 were all released after they purchased nothing real.

as noted in previous threads the pricing of the linux version was actually dropped from its initial price point when it was owned by nothing real so for every copy of nothing real linux shake you could purchase two copies of apple linux shake.

also apple, knowing that shake was in use in pipelines around the world, allowed those studios to purchase the source code of shake so that it could be maintained in the future.

cheers, simon w.

Seraca

08-02-2009, 10:14 PM

I personally Dont care weather Apple Stays in the "pro App" business or not.
Frankly there is market Bloat and redundancy in the high end CG application market anyway.
Yes you will always have fanboi's insisting that you MUST have such & such program to achieve this and that but the market right now is full of useful apps that one can use to achieve ones objectives.
For Example Most people greeted the arrival of the new final cut studio with a collective ..Yawn.
Why??.. because Nonlinear HD Digital video editing programs have "matured" to the point where there is not much more you can add to them except more compositing&SFX features until it becomes
an unwieldy piece of bloatware.

The same with dedicated 3D modeling packages
they are having to add more and SFX features like fur& particle systems to be able to have a longer feature list
than competitors (see Luxology Modo 401).

And on the 2D Print graphics Side we see Adobe Bloatoshop.. uhh... I mean Photoshop trying to become a 3D program.

Quark Xpress which enjoyed many years sitting arrogantly on top of the print design heap, until Indesign Came along,
Now has shoe horned in some really Awful "web design" features .

Yes Competition is good and yes it is time to trim alot of the "overlap" but this notion of all programs being all things to All people is what has destroyed the specialist and forced the creation of the "generalist"
which is why you see job listings now with skill set requirements the read like the closing credits to
"Lord of The Rings"

Welcome to the future.

Cheers

anibar

08-02-2009, 10:55 PM

Hi

1. Apple is one of the best software and hardware company's in the world, PLZ don't blame Apple they know what to do.
2. In the future you all are going to is new products, and than when you look back at Shake ore XSI or MAYA... you are going to :D

so work with the tools that we have now and have fun working

ulb

08-02-2009, 11:02 PM

The same with dedicated 3D modeling packages
they are having to add more and SFX features like fur& particle systems to be able to have a longer feature list
than competitors (see Luxology Modo 401).
Modo was designed to be an all-around 3d package, not just a modeler. They are not just putting new features in it, it was designed to have them and to challenge 3ds max, maya, xsi, ...

Seraca

08-02-2009, 11:52 PM

Hi

so work with the tools that we have now and have fun working

Thank you
Dont sit and stare at the horizon worrying about
the future of your 3D software.

Cheers

ArtOfSoulburn

08-02-2009, 11:56 PM

IMHO Apple bought these products, and later made Motion and Apperture, I believe to make sure that developers would keep making and improving their software on the Mac.

Quoted for agreement. And that plan became less important once the ipod made billions.

- Neil

ArtOfSoulburn

08-03-2009, 12:00 AM

so work with the tools that we have now and have fun working

Thank you . Dont sit and stare at the horizon worrying about
the future of your 3D software.

I partly agree, if you live life with the understanding that you may never see a single new feature that you want to use, you can certainly achieve a zen like happiness. :)

However, I do believe it's important to be involved with the development of new tools, even if that involvement is simply posting to a wishlist. It's important that software is pushed in the direction that the users want, so I think it's more a balance between being happy with what you have, and asking for what you'd like.

- Neil

andrewhake

08-03-2009, 01:18 AM

heh I do love the fans who think that Apple should create software for each market and how it would simply be killer just because Apple does it.

:rolleyes:

Please. :rolleyes:

If Apple's track record for Pro apps was different that may be the case. Apple software in the last 5 years have completely changed industries, how many companies can really honestly say that?

John-S

08-03-2009, 03:32 AM

It was a little on the fanboy revisionism side for the other poster to imply that Apple made Shake and Logic into an Oscar success. Both products were 100% developed and at their peak when acquired and have not significantly change since. They were also both available on Windows (Logic had 40% of its user base there)

IMHO Apple bought these products, and later made Motion and Apperture, I believe to make sure that developers would keep making and improving their software on the Mac.
Geeez. Fanboy revisionism... Its so silly that adults say comments like this. I expect "fanboy" comments from my children at school but come on people. Grow up!

Either-way, I think you have my post confused. Whether Apple developed the software to be the success that it was is irrelevant to what I was saying. My point is merely that Apple "purchases OR develops" software that is extremely competitive against its competitors. I was careful not to point out "better" etc. Just pointed out that they have earned their rights for people to have high expectations of their software.

Also, um... apple developed Final Cut Pro and pretty much the entire studio HUGELY themselves! Have you ever used the original FCP or seen screenshots of the software it was created from?

As far as the comment about apple buying shake and removing all other OS's compatibilities and then the software itself.... Yes, I don't disagree that if your on the windows linux side of software that has been purchased from apple then their is reason to fear. As well as.... if your not a mac user, don't plan on software floating your way. Is this bad... no in development reasons. Is it fair? No. Not really...

anibar

08-03-2009, 11:03 AM

I partly agree, if you live life with the understanding that you may never see a single new feature that you want to use, you can certainly achieve a zen like happiness. :)

However, I do believe it's important to be involved with the development of new tools, even if that involvement is simply posting to a wishlist. It's important that software is pushed in the direction that the users want, so I think it's more a balance between being happy with what you have, and asking for what you'd like.

- Neil

I think the reason why they make 3d software's money, if we don't like the new software they don't get money so don't worry. But it's a good idea to send comment about the software in forums....

ArtOfSoulburn

08-03-2009, 03:42 PM

I think the reason why they make 3d software's money, if we don't like the new software they don't get money so don't worry. But it's a good idea to send comment about the software in forums....

Well, certainly not buying upgrades is a good way to tell the company that you're unhappy with the direction they're going. But it's a very vague message, since you're only telling them they've done something bad, you're not giving them info on what direction you'd like them to take.

- Neil

SuperRune

08-03-2009, 05:37 PM

I'm curious... will Shake be considered abandonware now? If it is, can somebody go after the source code and maintain it as an open source comping app?

beaker

08-06-2009, 06:48 AM

It was a little on the fanboy revisionism side for the other poster to imply that Apple made Shake and Logic into an Oscar success. Both products were 100% developed and at their peak when acquired and have not significantly change since. They were also both available on Windows (Logic had 40% of its user base there)No, that is incorrect. There is a huge difference between Shake 2.5 and 4.1. There are nodes in 2.5 that we're so buggy you wouldn't dare even touch them by fear that they would corrupt your script: quickpaint, rotoshape, matchmove, tracker, the curve editor was broken, undo was guaranteed to crash the script where in 4.1 it only crashes it 25% of the time :) Quickshape was horribly slow at roto when you got beyond 50 keyframes.

Shake was nowhere near it's peak. It only had 2-3k sold copies when they acquired it. It was a $10k application and an extremely niche app. I've heard the number 30k thrown around now as the rough number of users/owners of the software since it's acquisition.

beaker

08-06-2009, 07:13 AM

If it is, can somebody go after the source code and maintain it as an open source comping app?The license on the source code doesn't allow it. Too bad.

SuperRune

08-06-2009, 08:41 AM

Too bad indeed...

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