Bard song exploit gone…?

It was long before I played Bard again, but I remember that when I activated Simulacrum from Vhailor's Helm, used Mislead scrolls from both Bard himself and the Sim image, then sang the Bard songs from all four characters their effects should stack. It's always +4 (EBS) now no matter how many images are singing. I also tried Skald songs, same issue.I’m running BGIIEEv2.3 with cdtweaks, SCS, Ascension, UB, Almateria’s Restoration and several quest mods installed, but I've traced the installation process carefully and I didn’t recall having anything checked for Bard Song, Mislead Images. Has this exploit been patched? Insights, thanks~~

From the latest release notes:Bard SongBard songs in Baldur’s Gate: Enhanced Edition now protect targets from fear effects in addition to improving morale, just like they do in Baldur’s Gate II: Enhanced Edition. In addition, deafened creatures are no longer affected by bard songs, and activating a bard song will now end a bard’s invisibility. Multiple bard songs of the same type no longer stack their effects.

Would a bard's HLAs transfer over to a simulacrum if the simulacrum was too low of a level to get them? If not, you could always build a Skald, take the bard song HLA, and then have the Skald sing the new song and his image sing his old one.

(Otherwise you could bring a Skald and a second bard, upgrade the second bard's song, but leave the Skald's unupgraded.)

Looks like the devs just made a complete 180 and pretty much destroyed cheese on the bard class. Next they'll prevent Timestop stacking, special attack effects affecting "summoned" weapons, and probably nerf Mordenkainen's Sword's physical invulnerability because shucks, that makes zero sense too.

Seriously these people need to know not to "fix" stuff that's not broken. I have friends who got turned off by the EE versions (several regretting buying them) due to "bugfixes" like these. These "bugs" help even the playing field against the obviously OP wizard class, "legit" players can simply ignore them and they pretty much exist mostly to reward players who try to beat the system. Because, in case these people don't play games like BG2, beating the system is a very BIG part of what makes playing this game fun.

So basically they're killing fun. On purpose. What the hell is happening here. The list of mods that I download simply to keep the game as close to the original as possible while implementing the precious few reasonable EE fixes just keeps getting longer and longer.

@NuinIt may depend, to me the Bard Song is a little easy to get and oply op. However like you said, BY THIS STANDARD, Edwin’s amulet should be nerfed as well, along with Chain spells, AI, PI, TS, and FoA+5’s workaround, which will make FoA upgrade pointless.Who knows what’ll happen next :-(

Exactly. Many of these effects were BG-specific in the first place and have very little basis in D&D (hell, most of the kits are nowhere near similar to their "original" D&D counterparts). Essentially BG itself is being changed here.

Let's just say that after EE became more stable I'd usually go "Hey, you guys remember/play BG2 yet? You should try out the EE version!"These days though I'm more "Hey, you guys remember/play BG2 yet? There's two versions... " EE is slowly but surely becoming a different game.

I tend to agree with them starting to change things that were fine, including the bard song. With games that are single-player first, I classify exploits into whether you can end up using them without wanting to or not. If you can run into them by accident, then I usually think they should be removed. Some examples of what I mean:

* Fake Talk: this one I sometimes use without wanting to. There are only few situations in the games where you can justify a pre-emptive strike on a neutral target (e.g. Firkraag) if you are good, but if you are evil there are more of them. You can easily miss clicking the attack symbol correctly and end up triggering the Fake Talk Bug. I would like to see it gone.* Bard Song stacking: This one is really only triggered intentionally. I don't mind it. Should stay.* Staff of Magi invisibility abuse: see above. Should stay.

There are other changes I dislike and which I mentioned above, which do not strictly fall into the exploit category.

One was the sleep spell. I know P&P says they wake up if attacked, but it just does not make sense without combining it with a one melee attack kill vs sleeping opponents as in the old gold box games.

The other one is the Int 18 restriction for Level 9 spells, which is not only implemented incorrectly (the restriction should also be on casting the spell) but also I just feel the BG 2 NPCs were not created with this restriction in mind.

And I still missing being able to stack Offensive Spin with Haste

But the worst example is the change to poison weapon. It made sense for the Blackguard, but they also hit an original kit with it.

I would prefer them to stick closer to the originals and leave balance changes more to mods.Not saying BG 2 was balanced perfectly, it wasn't. Especially ToB was bad, with the addition of HLAs completely messing up the kit and class balance (e.g. level 10 spells for sorcerers bypass the main disadvantage of the sorcerer class, Improved Bard Song kills many of the bard kits, ...). I just don't think you should change the game rules like this at this late stage.

I want you think very carefully about this in the greater scheme of cheesy things in the game and the fact that a simulacrum (like from the Helm of Vhailor) is the go-to tactic of people who want to play "legit" because the image can actually do something else while taking up a summon slot (ergo, Mislead is simply the convenient option).

All classes have cheesy tactics/exploits associated with them but very few can match the cheesy spell combinations of the full caster classes. If trends continue then those are going next, which begs the question of whether these people actually understand the psychology behind why people play single player RPG strategy games. RP is obviously a factor, but a casual look at the forums and the overwhelming number of "challenge" runs (or simply the sheer number of people who install SCS) should tell you that people LOVE to beat the system in a fulfilling way and figuring out cheesy tactics/exploits is a part of that.This is not an ACTION game where people abhor exploits or bugs - players don't play BG2 to experience first person stimuli (where bugs/exploits can be both gamebreaking AND can detract from the first person experience). This is a STRATEGY game. Cheating is PART of the game. How do hell do you think people win?

Finally, as I said, many effects in the BG series have no basis in D&D and are purely BG-specific. "Because that's not how it works in D&D" is a funny argument in a game where something as basic as the class system has very little basis in D&D.

In the end, they are changing the BG series here on a fundamental level. Pretty soon I'm going to have to label my posts "for EE" or "for original game/EE with original game mods". I'm still not sure how I think about that, but I do feel that a strategy game that devotes a considerable effort to curtail all my efforts to cheese/exploit is going to end up losing my interest.

I want you think very carefully about this in the greater scheme of cheesy things in the game and the fact that a simulacrum (like from the Helm of Vhailor) is the go-to tactic of people who want to play "legit" because the image can actually do something else while taking up a summon slot (ergo, Mislead is simply the convenient option).

Okay.

*thinks about it*

Mislead clones are supposed to be unable to take any action whatsoever, and yet Beamdog has repeatedly declined opportunities to take away the Mislead clone's ability to sing bard songs, so therefore they obviously don't have a problem with all cheese, or even all bard-specific cheese, and claims that they "pretty much destroyed cheese on the bard class" are hyperbolic.

They fixed bard song stacking and singing-while-invisible. They also buffed(/fixed) the base bard song and left several other bard song exploits and cheese. Bard song stacking was maybe fun and I can see why some would be upset that it no longer (erroneously) stacks, but this is hardly bardmageddon, here, nor the opening salvo in a greater war on cheese, fun, and the American Dream in the name of "balance".

Edit: Also, "a casual look at the forums and the overwhelming number of "challenge" runs" doesn't exactly give a representative sample of people who play RPG strategy games.

Your reputation for contrariness seems well deserved (yes people notice, I'm just not as polite as other posters).

You're nuts if you think Misleads are any where near comparable to bard song stacking. It blows the mind that you are using such a simple tactic, with its own pros and cons, as a baseline for what counts as cheesy in this game. Do you even know that a bard needs to be level 13 to even cast a single Mislead? Did you even consider that to gain access to the Improved Bard Song a bard has to reach epic levels first?And even if you couldn't get your Mislead images to sing, you will always have your simulacrums from the scroll/helm. And I don't know where you get your information of Misleads from, because neither the D&D NOR the BG2 implementation prevent a Mislead image from speaking or vocalizing.I suppose you could just be cheese/exploit-impaired, heh. It would definitely make sense.

And who are you, exactly, to determine what should and shouldn't "erroneously" stack in this game? What is your basis? D&D? Did you even bother to read my previous post about how different BG core mechanics are from its D&D source material? Does it really require so much brainpower to infer that BG is basically its own game, and THAT game is what inspires people to keep playing, not the idealized D&D-faithful BG2 you seem to think it should be? Oh I've read your posts and it doesn't take much to imagine what your idealized version of BG2 is. If I were playing that game, I wouldn't be playing BG2.As for myself, I'm simply speaking as a strategy game player. Options/opportunities define the games I consider strategy games, and subverting/beating a system that cheats on its own (when was the last time you played a strategy game where the computer didn't have some sort of unfair advantage? where the game's Irenicus behaved exactly like a wizard of his level? where the PC can ALSO pick races like demon/dragon? where there wasn't some sort of scripted interaction that would invariably put your party in a strategically disadvantageous position afterwards?) is a very BIG part of what makes playing these games fun. Because that's why I play these games... for fun. Challenges are fun. Dialogues and unique NPCs are fun. Tactical reversals are fun. Non game-breaking (I'm being literal here, for everyone's sake) exploits are fun.

Oh, and if you didn't notice the growing trend of bug/exploit-fixing that the devs have been on then you badly need a reality check. I suppose that does explain your edit, though. Feel free to notice how no one else is arguing the point, just offering their thoughts about the "whys", the "maybes" and the "what to dos". Yeah.

Anyway, as for you edit such posts are universal. I've been playing this game for more than a decade now, and in every boards with an active BG2 community you'll find dozens such posts, from GameFAQS to Gamebanshee to the old Bioware boards and fan sites like Sorcerer's Place and RPG Codex. In fact, you'll find traces of people talking about their favorite "tactics" or "setups" on just about any thread. Hardcore RP threads are extremely rare, and even story/NPC discussions will include mentions of everyone's favorite tips and tricks - you will rarely ever find posts like "I like Jaheira because she's a strong, confident female figure..." without the accompanying "...with badass warrior and druid powers and because she can shut down spellcasters with those insect spells and summon those really nasty nymphs and fire elementals."

Like I said, I've never played a single player strategy game where everyone is on equal footing. There is always something that makes one side "special", whether it's levels combined with ungodly magical powers (in the case of Irenicus and BG2) or creativity and the ability to adapt combined with flexible game mechanics (the player). Someone is always cheating.

You've never actually thought about the basic setup of all strategy games? They were never meant to be "fair", you would never actually win if that was the case. They were simply meant to make you think.Which brings us back to things like exploits, and which makes it difficult for me as a strategy game player to accept that the devs are slowly taking away my rewards for puzzling out how to beat the game - that is, all the different strategies/tactics/exploits I know.

Assuming you're not Mr. Contrary there, then you know that the devs have been slowly but surely doing this for a while now. And it's been escalating.

The player base of BG has always had the split of those who come from p&p and those who come from strategy games. Coming from p&p I've no-reloaded BG1 & 2 while roleplaying suboptimal play (not that mine is optimal anyway!) and installing mods which restrict the possibility of exploits- e.g. Spell Revisions. I welcome bug-fixes of this kind, as masochistic as that may seem...(though I really don't like the restricted bard song radius). Forums are always full of chatter about quantitative analysis of the *best* characters/ items/ parties but the qualitative elements of this game also help to bring us back, draw in new players, and have inspired reams of fan fiction / mods.

build a Skald, take the bard song HLA, and then have the Skald sing the new song and his image sing his old one.

I tried, it doesn’t work, still a +4, solid. It seems they’re pretty thorough in “fixing” this exploit.

In fact, that did bring up another BIG question mark: should two or more EBSongs from actual Bards stack? Now they don’t, only different type of songs stack, in a strange way... ie. when a lvl16 Skald and a lvl25 Blade song together, damage +8 is categorized to ability bonus while THAC0 split into ability bonus -4 and to hit -4, weird right? Looks like an oversight to me…

Im probably in the minority here, I use atweaks to get rid of all the of that similacrum,clones using scrolls stuff. Bard songs stacking IF they were different kits of bards MAYBE, but seems like even then, two types of music blaring gets to be messy even in RL. I can imagine hearing some Flight of the Valkyries Skald dude next to er, uhm, say Garrick playing some Seseme Street theme music, or a Blade playing er, the Theme music to Terminator or some such thing.

Hello @JuliusBorisovMy own opinion of Bard song exploit aside, as regular users usually have no resources, if you have EE dev’s contacts, could you please tell them that while we appreciate their efforts in bugfix, we generally like to retain some freedom original games offer us, and it's actually not very appropriate to muddle if somebody in charge isn’t from the original team. We look forward to the incoming v2.4.Thank you.

As a couple of others have hinted above I think part of the problem is the wide range of opinions held by players - making it pretty much impossible to please everyone. I think that's largely a consequence of the history of the game. BG has been extensively modded over the years and many of those changes have become widely accepted by players, so that I think it is no longer realistic to say that the game should be restored to what was intended by the original developers - for instance while there are a few people who would like to play vanilla BG I think that's a pretty small minority. For my taste Beamdog have indeed made too many changes to 'fix' exploits, but I do understand they're in a difficult position given the range of opinions on this subject.

On topic for this thread I don't really understand why bards are not able to sing while invisible. I'm not aware of lots of people asking for that change and it's not something that has been widely accepted in mods. It also seems inconsistent with generally accepted game behavior. It's always been the case that casters were able to maintain invisibility while casting certain types of spells and not others - while there are exceptions generally spells affecting enemies or summons make you visible while spells affecting the party don't. If that same logic is applied to bards then I can see the rationale for saying that the jester should not be able to sing while invisible - and indeed I have seen that pointed out as an anomaly over time. While I would have been perfectly happy leaving the original behavior for jesters I can thus see an argument for changing that. I don't understand why the change has been made for other bards as well though.

I got BG2EE 2.3 just to try the Legacy of Bhaal mode and I must admit I'm having a lot of fun.

I completely agree though with the sentiment that Beamdog shouldn't implement their own idea of balance in the game. Like Nuin said, figuring out game-breaking mechanics/tactics after the initial struggle of learning the game is one of the most fun and rewarding game experiences you can have. And it also doesn't diminish replayability because on your next run you can just decide not to use it and learn some other class/kit. Or install some challenging mods.Again like mentioned before, this is not an MMO. This is a single player strategic RPG. Figuring out how to beat the system is half the fun.

Also I can't see how this can be a positive for returning players (like me). I was quite disappointed with the poison and bardsong nerfs. Maybe the original poison weapon is a bit too gamebreaking for Blackguards (don't know, haven't tried them) but in that case just introduce a new separate poison ability for them.

So basically they're killing fun. On purpose. What the hell is happening here. The list of mods that I download simply to keep the game as close to the original as possible while implementing the precious few reasonable EE fixes just keeps getting longer and longer.

Do you know of any mods that revert the song stacking and poison nerfs?

Gosh, I had not realized that the Staff of the Magi was so powerful that it was considered cheesy. I gave mine to Neera and she alternates it with her sling and the Staff of Air Control. I shall henceforth alter my tactics, thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. A pearl to you all

@subtledoctor I'm not sure myself sometimes as the sun starts to rise reminding me it is about bedtime, sometimes I get so drowsy looking at 'just a few more threads' my fingers start to squirrel off the mouse pad hehheh

@Grond0 I noticed after installing RRebalancing bards could sing invisible again. Then we also have the option in, can't remember now, Tweaks Ant. or aTweaks that I use that allows one to choose on the issue, even breaking it down to allowing all bards BUT jesters sing invisible.

@Grond0It doesn't have to be a this-or-that thing :-) Bardsong exploit is perfectly OK to stay the way as it was, it’s really up to players to choose whether or not to use it. Same goes for mods, most of which are based on the original game, people’s choice how to use them. It’s better phrased as “freedom”, no one needs to kill it.

Now should Bardsong break invisibility? That’s a this-or-that-thing :-)

Gosh, I had not realized that the Staff of the Magi was so powerful that it was considered cheesy. I gave mine to Neera and she alternates it with her sling and the Staff of Air Control. I shall henceforth alter my tactics, thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. A pearl to you all

It is fine as long as you do not constantly click it to reapply the invisibility.