RedWingFan wrote:The movie was near perfection. Only 1 thing I would change in the story that's going to affect a major character arc in the future films, and 1 stupid SJW moment I would eliminate. Very moving film. There were some very well done funny quips. Saw it with my son Thurs night, and the whole family Friday morning. Everyone loved it.

Saw Avengers:Endgame. With Infinity War, the Russos' obviously wrote themselves into a corner. And that's OK. Dramatic stakes need to be raised when there's a new superhero movie coming out every week. It's also ok and expected that sort of scifi deus-ex machina was always going to be necessary to bring back beloved characters. But the way they went about it was pretty hokey and uninspired. The pop cultural references to other better time travel movies (Terminator, Back to the Future etc) doesn't absolve the screenwriters of laziness. I still don't understand why the Avengers couldn't go back to the moment immediately preceding the snap and have Captain Marvel kick Thano's ass. Overall, it was just alright. Sort of a hot mess.

"I think we should all sue this women for depriving us of our God given right to go down with a clear mind, and good thoughts." - Stu, Consumate Pussy Eater

The_Noble_Cause wrote:I still don't understand why the Avengers couldn't go back to the moment immediately preceding the snap and have Captain Marvel kick Thano's ass. Overall, it was just alright. Sort of a hot mess.

Then the movie would only be 90 minutes long. But hey, Natasha would be alive.

You obviously were not paying attention to what the Ancient One said. If they had gone back in time and killed Thanos, that would have created a new branch off of their timeline for that future....but it would not have affected their own future. This is why the Ancient One argued that taking the time stone may be helpful for the future Avengers but it would put her on a new timeline where the future would be unknown, and without the time stone. She was only convinced to give up the stone when told Dr. Strange willingly gave up his stone to Thanos. Since she could not see past her own death, and Dr. Strange was to grow into the best Sorcery Supreme ever, she trusted him and gave up the time stone. And, this is also why they had to return all of the stones - so no branches off of their timeline were created.

Also, as soon as past Thanos discovered a future Nebula and he altered his plans so he could go to the future, that also created a new branch in the timeline. So, technically, they are no longer on the main branch where the Thanos snap occurred. They are on an alternate timeline that Thanos himself created...a timeline where he did not do the snap, was defeated, and Tony's snap erased everything "Thanos". So, really, Thanos defeated himself with his own ego and narcissism.

Monker wrote:Also, as soon as past Thanos discovered a future Nebula and he altered his plans so he could go to the future, that also created a new branch in the timeline. So, technically, they are no longer on the main branch where the Thanos snap occurred. They are on an alternate timeline that Thanos himself created...a timeline where he did not do the snap, was defeated, and Tony's snap erased everything "Thanos". So, really, Thanos defeated himself with his own ego and narcissism.

That was hokey as hell. Nebula isn't a drone like a Chitauri drone. She's a cybernetic being. Both "Nebulas" having the same "memories" because they were within galactic pissing distance of each other was a contrivance the likes of which I'd not seen Marvel stoop to. Without it, no finale. That was forced as hell.

Monker wrote:You obviously were not paying attention to what the Ancient One said. If they had gone back in time and killed Thanos, that would have created a new branch off of their timeline for that future....but it would not have affected their own future. This is why the Ancient One argued that taking the time stone may be helpful for the future Avengers but it would put her on a new timeline where the future would be unknown, and without the time stone. She was only convinced to give up the stone when told Dr. Strange willingly gave up his stone to Thanos. Since she could not see past her own death, and Dr. Strange was to grow into the best Sorcery Supreme ever, she trusted him and gave up the time stone. And, this is also why they had to return all of the stones - so no branches off of their timeline were created.

Oh, I heard it alright. But that doesn't change anything. The Avengers still could have traveled to the moment preceding the snap, defeated Thanos with Captain Marvel's help, and acquired the stones. The idea that they branch out to all these disparate points in MCU time/space was totally contrived.

Monker wrote:Also, as soon as past Thanos discovered a future Nebula and he altered his plans so he could go to the future, that also created a new branch in the timeline. So, technically, they are no longer on the main branch where the Thanos snap occurred. They are on an alternate timeline that Thanos himself created...a timeline where he did not do the snap, was defeated, and Tony's snap erased everything "Thanos". So, really, Thanos defeated himself with his own ego and narcissism.

Anybody who tries to talk about this movie just proves my point. It was a mostly convoluted pile of shit. If future Nebula is able to alter the course of history by traveling to the past, it stands to reason that The Avengers could have too.

"I think we should all sue this women for depriving us of our God given right to go down with a clear mind, and good thoughts." - Stu, Consumate Pussy Eater

It also opens up another equally sizeable plothole: Why the eff didn't Stark just put the Stones on his glove in the first place, since the Gauntlet itself is little more than a fancy piece of extraterrestrial apparel?

verslibre wrote:It also opens up another equally sizeable plothole: Why the eff didn't Stark just put the Stones on his glove in the first place, since the Gauntlet itself is little more than a fancy piece of extraterrestrial apparel?

He didn't put it on earlier because it would kill him to use it. In the end, he knew what would happened and he sacrificed himself.

No, it isn't. Then Hawkeye should have done a preemptive, since he was willing to sacrifice himself for the Soul Stone, but WIdow beat him to it.

But no, it was a chance to play a little football with the glove. "Pass!"

Again: Pym Particle + Captain Marvel = End Thanos. Quiz tomorrow.

This is not hard to understand. If they go back in time and kill Thanos, they create a new timeline where Thanos dies early. They return to their own future and nothing changed because Thanos died in the other timeline.

Haven't you seen Sliders? Hitler dies as a baby and it is in its own timeline. They slide in and experience that timeline...and then slide again in an attempt to get back to Earth prime where history happened as they know it. It's the SAME THING from a different perspective.

No, it isn't. Then Hawkeye should have done a preemptive, since he was willing to sacrifice himself for the Soul Stone, but WIdow beat him to it.

But no, it was a chance to play a little football with the glove. "Pass!"

Again: Pym Particle + Captain Marvel = End Thanos. Quiz tomorrow.

This is not hard to understand. If they go back in time and kill Thanos, they create a new timeline where Thanos dies early. They return to their own future and nothing changed because Thanos died in the other timeline.

Haven't you seen Sliders? Hitler dies as a baby and it is in its own timeline. They slide in and experience that timeline...and then slide again in an attempt to get back to Earth prime where history happened as they know it. It's the SAME THING from a different perspective.

When Strange looks at Stark and slowly points upward, he's signaling they're going to win this one. That is its OWN timeline. He's seen a multitude. They FAIL in every other one. Thanos dies "early" per his own clock, anyway, by coming forward to 2023. HE is changing the timeline, anyway. TAO said all the timelines "fold back into themselves" once the Stones are all returned to the times they retrieved them from (which was apparently as simple as contracting an Uber ride).

So again: Pym Particles + Captain Marvel = Thanos Dead = Everything Resets Once Stones Are Returned. According to the elastic time travel rules of Endgame.

P.S. And there's still a Thor in 2014 wondering where the fuck his Hammer went. So Beer Gut Thor was more "worthy" than Standard Issue Thor.

Monker wrote:This is not hard to understand. If they go back in time and kill Thanos, they create a new timeline where Thanos dies early. They return to their own future and nothing changed because Thanos died in the other timeline.

With Captain Marvel's help, the Avengers still could have retrieved the gauntlet from Thanos and snapped everyone back into existence.

Monker wrote:Haven't you seen Sliders? Hitler dies as a baby and it is in its own timeline. They slide in and experience that timeline...and then slide again in an attempt to get back to Earth prime where history happened as they know it. It's the SAME THING from a different perspective.

Sliders was often mischaracterized as a time travel show, but it was strictly about parallel universes. Unlike Endgame, Sliders took a theoretical physics concept (parallel universes) and broadened its appeal to the average viewer. Avengers made no such effort. Instead, the Russos opted to have characters rattle off a bunch of pop-cultural bullshit references including Hot Tub Time Machine. Pretty shitty storytelling. Maybe the new Spiderman will make more sense of it all.

"I think we should all sue this women for depriving us of our God given right to go down with a clear mind, and good thoughts." - Stu, Consumate Pussy Eater

The_Noble_Cause wrote:[Sliders was often mischaracterized as a time travel show, but it was strictly about parallel universes.

Exactly...and I never said Sliders was a time travel show.

Unlike Endgame, Sliders took a theoretical physics concept (parallel universes) and broadened its appeal to the average viewer. Avengers made no such effort. Instead, the Russos opted to have characters rattle off a bunch of pop-cultural bullshit references including Hot Tub Time Machine. Pretty shitty storytelling. Maybe the new Spiderman will make more sense of it all.

You are simply WRONG. The Ancient One explained it very well. You just choose to ignore it so you go on rants like these. Both Sliders and Endgame use the EXACT SAME theories regarding quantum mechanics. All probabilities play themselves out in various parallel universes. So, Sliders slide into them, in Endgame they are cautious to not shift from their universe to another. Parallel Universe and "alternate timeline" are the exact same thing.

I don't believe that time travel is possible anyway..at least not to go back in time. It's all fiction anyway.

Monker wrote:Exactly...and I never said Sliders was a time travel show.

Endgame already references a trivial pursuit worth of movies/TV shows in a (poor) attempt to explain it's loophole-ridden time travel logic. The last thing we need is another reference. Sliders was about parallel universes that exist concurrent to our own. Endgame is about selling toys.

Monker wrote:You are simply WRONG. The Ancient One explained it very well. You just choose to ignore it so you go on rants like these.

If bald Tilda Swinton explained it so clearly, then you should be able to answer my question: why couldn't the Avengers (including Ms. Marvel) go back before the snap, retrieve the gauntlet from Thanos, and snap everyone back into existence? Furthermore, if bald Tilda Swinton is correct, why was Captain American able to go back into the past and yet return to the present (2023) as an old man? His detour into the past should have created an alternate timeline.

"I think we should all sue this women for depriving us of our God given right to go down with a clear mind, and good thoughts." - Stu, Consumate Pussy Eater

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Furthermore, if bald Tilda Swinton is correct, why was Captain American able to go back into the past and yet return to the present (2023) as an old man? His detour into the past should have created an alternate timeline.

Certainly, it did. I find it hard to believe the Super Soldier (the only one of his kind) would go back and assume the identity of a man he saved in order to start a life with Peggy, and then proceed to live undercover and do nothing further with his abilities. His other self wouldn't emerge again till his 2011 rescue. And even if he did, things still wouldn't be the same.

When Rogers was sitting in that spot, so the explanation goes, he was "already there" because he remembered the spot. That's hilarious, because they should have been able to spot an old guy lingering around for no good reason, with a large duffel. I doubt he was still running laps and shouting "On your left!" Had his 2023 self seen his centenarian self, that could've affected things further.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Furthermore, if bald Tilda Swinton is correct, why was Captain American able to go back into the past and yet return to the present (2023) as an old man? His detour into the past should have created an alternate timeline.

Certainly, it did.

Correct...when he danced with Peggy, it did. And, then he returned to his own timeline...so what.

I find it hard to believe the Super Soldier (the only one of his kind) would go back and assume the identity of a man he saved in order to start a life with Peggy, and then proceed to live undercover and do nothing further with his abilities. His other self wouldn't emerge again till his 2011 rescue. And even if he did, things still wouldn't be the same.

When Rogers was sitting in that spot, so the explanation goes, he was "already there" because he remembered the spot. That's hilarious, because they should have been able to spot an old guy lingering around for no good reason, with a large duffel. I doubt he was still running laps and shouting "On your left!" Had his 2023 self seen his centenarian self, that could've affected things further.

You have NO IDEA what he did when he went back, other than dance with Peggy and return the stones. You don't know what else he did with Peggy....in the alternate timeline. You don't know how he returned the soul stone and what that meant to Gamora and Natasha. You don't know how he returned Aether/reality stone "into" Jane Foster. You don't know where the wedding ring came from. You don't know how he got back to his original timeline. You know absolutely NOTHING.

Monker wrote:Exactly...and I never said Sliders was a time travel show.

Endgame already references a trivial pursuit worth of movies/TV shows in a (poor) attempt to explain it's loophole-ridden time travel logic. The last thing we need is another reference. Sliders was about parallel universes that exist concurrent to our own. Endgame is about selling toys.

Good...how about another one. The Orville explained the difference between the two time travel/alternate timeline theories very well:

Monker wrote:You are simply WRONG. The Ancient One explained it very well. You just choose to ignore it so you go on rants like these.

If bald Tilda Swinton explained it so clearly, then you should be able to answer my question: why couldn't the Avengers (including Ms. Marvel) go back before the snap, retrieve the gauntlet from Thanos, and snap everyone back into existence? Furthermore, if bald Tilda Swinton is correct, why was Captain American able to go back into the past and yet return to the present (2023) as an old man? His detour into the past should have created an alternate timeline.

I have already answered the question, several times. You just don't like that reality so you substitute your own.

Monker wrote:You have NO IDEA what he did when he went back, other than dance with Peggy and return the stones. You don't know what else he did with Peggy....in the alternate timeline. You don't know how he returned the soul stone and what that meant to Gamora and Natasha. You don't know how he returned Aether/reality stone "into" Jane Foster. You don't know where the wedding ring came from. You don't know how he got back to his original timeline. You know absolutely *******.

Wrong. The Russos and Markus have confirmed Rogers is the father of Peggy's children. So I do know something — unlike you.

After defeating Thanos for good, Steve Rogers traveled through the MCU’s timeline, returning the Infinity Stones to their rightful place and dimensions. But when he returned to the year 2023, he was an old man. Steve finally got to have his dance with Peggy Carter, although the marriage to his true love raises the question: are her kids from the current timeline Cap’s? Endgame writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely recently addressed this fan theory, with McFeely saying:

Talk about a long con. Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely wrote all of The Russo Brothers’ installments in the MCU, dating back to Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Considering one of the best MCU installments ever, that sequel revealed that Peggy Carter had two children. And now it looks like those kids are Cap’s.

This is quite a revelation for Marvel fans, and proved how far in advance some of Avengers: Endgame‘s narrative goes back. While the fandom has just been trying to process the myriad twists and endings that the blockbuster provided, the weeks since Endgame‘s release have caused new fan theories to pop up. This includes the lineage of Peggy’s kids, which was been officially confirmed by the movie’s writers.

In their same conversation with THR, Christopher Markus hinted that the Cap’s role as a father might have an effect on the future of the MCU, saying:

Well, that a spinoff I could get into. Not one but two children of Captain America might have some of his powers, and they could make a crimefighting duo in the future. Considering Chris Evans has hung up his shield for good, it would be an interesting way to keep Steve Rogers in the story.

Monker wrote:Good...how about another one. The Orville explained the difference between the two time travel/alternate timeline theories very well:

Ah, but of course.... Because when I think theoretical physics, I immediately think of the Family Guy dude. Next you'll say "South Park" accurately depicted alternate dimensions in the imagination land episode. Then, after that, you will cite "Homeboys in Outer Space" for it's scientific portrayal of interstellar space travel.

Monker wrote:I have already answered the question, several times. You just don't like that reality so you substitute your own.

Additional pop culture references, like Sliders, are not an answer. It's a cop-out. Just like this movie.

"I think we should all sue this women for depriving us of our God given right to go down with a clear mind, and good thoughts." - Stu, Consumate Pussy Eater

Nah, Imaginationland seemed more like a portal to Hell (hail Satan!) sorta story. More like Hellraiser than alternate timelines and such. Though some of the Sliders episodes did not follow that either...like Electric Twister, the take off on Tremors, the take off on Anaconda, the take off on Merlin, Christmas mall in the sky, etc.

I was thinking Time Tunnel. That's a good one.

Then, after that, you will cite "Homeboys in Outer Space" for it's scientific portrayal of interstellar space travel.

Don't know about that. I would say Interstellar is a better choice.

Monker wrote:I have already answered the question, several times. You just don't like that reality so you substitute your own.

Additional pop culture references, like Sliders, are not an answer. It's a cop-out. Just like this movie.

I have answered you at least three times. Short version: Travel backwards in time and change something. New timeline where "whatever' does/doesn't happen. Return to prime timeline in the present...NOTHING HAS CHANGED BECAUSE THE CHANGE IS IN ANOTHER TIMELINE.

My point is that they did absolutely NOTHING in the movie to explain what happened. They left a HUGE opening to bring back CA in many different ways. Old CA's backstory was completely unresolved...and I'm OK with that.

verslibre wrote:

Monker wrote:You have NO IDEA what he did when he went back, other than dance with Peggy and return the stones. You don't know what else he did with Peggy....in the alternate timeline. You don't know how he returned the soul stone and what that meant to Gamora and Natasha. You don't know how he returned Aether/reality stone "into" Jane Foster. You don't know where the wedding ring came from. You don't know how he got back to his original timeline. You know absolutely *******.

Wrong. The Russos and Markus have confirmed Rogers is the father of Peggy's children. So I do know something — unlike you.

After defeating Thanos for good, Steve Rogers traveled through the MCU’s timeline, returning the Infinity Stones to their rightful place and dimensions. But when he returned to the year 2023, he was an old man. Steve finally got to have his dance with Peggy Carter, although the marriage to his true love raises the question: are her kids from the current timeline Cap’s? Endgame writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely recently addressed this fan theory, with McFeely saying:

Talk about a long con. Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely wrote all of The Russo Brothers’ installments in the MCU, dating back to Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Considering one of the best MCU installments ever, that sequel revealed that Peggy Carter had two children. And now it looks like those kids are Cap’s.

This is quite a revelation for Marvel fans, and proved how far in advance some of Avengers: Endgame‘s narrative goes back. While the fandom has just been trying to process the myriad twists and endings that the blockbuster provided, the weeks since Endgame‘s release have caused new fan theories to pop up. This includes the lineage of Peggy’s kids, which was been officially confirmed by the movie’s writers.

In their same conversation with THR, Christopher Markus hinted that the Cap’s role as a father might have an effect on the future of the MCU, saying:

Well, that a spinoff I could get into. Not one but two children of Captain America might have some of his powers, and they could make a crimefighting duo in the future. Considering Chris Evans has hung up his shield for good, it would be an interesting way to keep Steve Rogers in the story.

Monker wrote:I have answered you at least three times. Short version: Travel backwards in time and change something. New timeline where "whatever' does/doesn't happen. Return to prime timeline in the present...NOTHING HAS CHANGED BECAUSE THE CHANGE IS IN ANOTHER TIMELINE.

That is how it is explained in the movie. Period.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Again, the Avengers still could have traveled to the moment preceding the snap, overpowered Thanos with Captain Marvel's help, and acquired the glove. Traveling to different pivotal moments in time, throughout the galaxy, is a hokey contrivance.

"I think we should all sue this women for depriving us of our God given right to go down with a clear mind, and good thoughts." - Stu, Consumate Pussy Eater