Plus the fact that the Bible itself has been corrupted by centuries of translation after translation, and many very "liberal" changes made to it by the early catholic church makes it very suspect. And if you take into account the history of the gospels (and their obvious contradictions)- the gospels were nothing more than long advertisements which stretched the truth at times. I am not saying that it DISPROVES Christ's divinity, but it makes the bible a very suspect source for evidence.And yes- I have read the Koran and it does make reference to Jesus as a respected prophet. They just do not worship Jesus...

Originally posted by Guru ZimThe proof offered by any religion should be compared to a marketing pamphlet from any company. Just because you see it in a pamphlet, it doesn't mean that it is a lie... but you would do well to try to find independent evidence that what is being said is true.

For a direct example of one in the same I heartily recommend Jack Chick. Be sure to check out the section on the left called "tracts".

I'm not getting dragged into this with you again. You know very well what my issues are with Christianity. I was merely commenting on the argument that I hear many times - that you have to have faith in something without questioning it... that without faith there is nothing.

I happen to believe that's a rediculous argument. Following that logic, whatever religion you are exposed to first that holds that tenet, should be the absolute truth to you.

It's a way to control people - if you can make them feel guilty for asking questions, then they won't ask questions.

I totally know what you mean, Guru-When I was in high school I was friends with a girl named Amy- probably one of the brightest and most ALIVE people I had ever met. She had some rough times, and got sucked in by a borm again. She was changed so much- she turned from an inquisitive, thoughtful woman to a total shell- who has a great deal of faith. but nothing else. Everything she needed would be given to her if she kept that faith, and her life totally stopped. It was as if she was waiting to die!The coolest people in the world to philosophize with are the religious types who really do question their faith. I have had conversations with a nun about some things that blew me away- she not only studied, but appreciated, tennants of other faiths and ways of life (we were talking about native American beliefs).If there IS a God... there is no concievable way that he talked to and taught only one group of people throughout history. If the Christians are right, the Chineese, for example, were IGNORED by God, and their faiths are all based on lies. How egotistical is that?

Guru, I was just trying to make the point that I agree with you! Problem is that the vast majority of Christians out there do define faith in that way--either they don't want to be bothered with looking up evidence and facts, or they seriously hold to some kind of existentialist faith where faith and reason are totally seperated. I don't believe they are nor should they be seperated; in that way I am very much like a skeptic. The difference between myself and a skeptic however is that we have different takes on what the evidence shows, as per my post on the historical Jesus.

Of course I am not the only one. There has been a healthy tradition of modern day Christian scholars making intelligent defenses for the faith, from C.S Lewis, to Gary Habermas, J.P. Moreland, Norm Geisler, etc. Unfortunately the general public never even hears about these folks--all they see is Paul and Jan Crouch on TBN sitting on gold-painted chairs and talking to Benny Hinn while he blows on people and knocks them over. If there is one tragedy of modern Christianity greater than the priest sexual abuse scandal, or Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggert, or Christians not doing more to care for the poor, whatever, this is it. Wacky Pentecostals and faith teachers get all the air time, and the more sober minded (and intelligent) ones get the shaft because they do not mix well with one particular group which controls a major cable station. So people end up thinking *that* is what Christianity is all about, and when they say they don't want any part of it, I can't blame them.

Nastio, please...if you expect your beliefs to be treated with respect, it helps to grant that other folks sincerely belief what they profess. It's a bit of a stretch to claim that atheist and/or agnostic folks (students or otherwise) reject religion merely so they can be excepted from the moral code of religion. Plenty of atheists/agnostics are concerned w/ moral/ethical issues, and also reject organized religions, for what they consider legitimate reasons. At least that's the case with the big old atheist non-student writing this post.

I worked the 12am-8am shift at the front desk at a college residence. And almost all of those were on Fridays and Saturdays, the two craziest nights of the week. During that time, I dealt with quite a few situations, and also had a fair few conversations about stuff like this. You may call it a stretch, but I've seen it AND heard it.

That said, I wasn't saying ALL athiest/agnostic people were that way for that reason. There are plenty of reasons I'm sure (just like there's plenty of reasons why people chose to follow Christ).

On a personal level, I find that asking questions is a good thing. When I 'reverted' back to Catholicism, I asked questions. And in doing so, I found the answers helped me out greatly along the way.

UNfortunately, no, I dont have that last stub. I never thought about it when I left the company back in march of last year. Somebody told me I could fill out a for that estimates me pay, since the company wont be submitting any info to the IRS any longer....