Posted
by
Unknown Lameron Wednesday December 05, 2012 @10:34AM
from the i-want-out dept.

New submitter thAMESresearcher writes with a few updates on Mars One: "The Dutch company Mars One is organizing a one way mission to Mars 2023. In a press release that came out today, they say they have over a thousand applicants already. In the press release they also mention that they are now a not-for-profit Foundation. It sounds ambitious, but they have a Nobel prize winner, an astronaut, and several people from NASA on their board."
The actual selection process starts early next year.

Yeah right, you're trying to tell me that former Green Bay Packer Michael Anthony Hunt [wikipedia.org] signed up for this? Mike Hunt received a total of two interceptions while playing only twenty two games. Mike Hunt knows how to play the field. It's ridiculous to think that we would waste Mike Hunt, a national treasure that has been enjoyed by millions of burly men, by putting Mike Hunt on a Mars suicide mission!

Mike Hunt is the poster child for a career of being shafted. From his start with the Toronto Blue Balls, to his career-ending finale when he ill-advisedly swung at a pitch from Wrong-Hole-Harriet, Hunt moved deeper and deeper until the truth finally penetrated: All this time, they'd treated him like a dick. He knew it was time to pull out, and pull out he did. Some analysts think it's pushing it to say so, but those in the know speak of the collapse of walls of the sport, giving Hunt the nod for stretching

I'm pretty sure the GP was talking about Michael Hunt [wikipedia.org] the 12 time national champion roller hockey player. He's championed one of the greatest sports for so long, that he needed a new challenge. Mars.

Yeah right, you're trying to tell me that former Green Bay Packer Michael Anthony Hunt [wikipedia.org] signed up for this? Mike Hunt received a total of two interceptions while playing only twenty two games. Mike Hunt knows how to play the field. It's ridiculous to think that we would waste Mike Hunt, a national treasure that has been enjoyed by millions of burly men, by putting Mike Hunt on a Mars suicide mission!

The thing about suicide missions most people aren't considering is body disposal. There must be an effective and sanitary means of handling the body. It would be nice if they could make soylent green, but at the very least there should be a device which would render a body as "gone" in a clean and sanitary manner. A body disposal bot would be pretty ideal... "bring out your dead... bring out your dead..."

Anyway, I'd be all for it. I have produced three viable offspring and don't plan to produce more. If departure is within the next 20 years, I'll be a perfect candidate for such a mission... I doubt my wife would agree though.

It would contaminate nothing. The body's water would freeze dry within hours and the UV radiation and near vacuum would make sure any organics soon decomposed or evaporated and the ice itself would sublime eventually. All you'd be left with after a few years would be minerals from the bones and teeth.

What do you think all the dead space probes already on the surface are? Besides which , if humanity is to be a permanent presence on mars which is the whole premise behind the mission then "contamination" is inevitable.

Only if something manages to survive Mars' surface environment. That seems very unlikely. Now if you buried the bodies deep enough and did so very quickly... maybe... I doubt they would do that though, not unless it is determined that there is no native life first. Or.. native life is found and it turns out to be just the same microbes we have here already anyway (possible given meteor transport)

-- It's in one category with global genocide

Now you are assuming that not only do body microbes survive in the Martian environment (reasonable since freezing, desiccating low pressure environments with lot's of UV exactly mimics what microbes inside our guts see every day right?) but also that microbes adapted to our bodies' environment will actually out-compete native microbes which are adapted to the martian environment even in the martian environment

Yes, we do see non-native species out-competing native ones here on Earth but they are only crossing continents. Normally when this happens the new environment is quite similar to the old one with the exception of a lack in well adapted predators. This is hardly the same as taking a microbe adapted to the human body and putting it on Mars which is almost the exact opposite of the human body (warm, wet and well shielded from pretty much everything vs cold dry and without most of the protection from space which we enjoy at the Earth's surface)

-- we could never ever tell if there actually was life on mars

anything found on Mars that isn't found on Earth is probably Martian. Any fossil from before human presence is definitely Martian.

And why would that be a problem? We're not talking about a temporary experiment setup for fun. The goal is colonization! Looking at all previous colonization efforts (of which the USA is most probably the clearest example) contamination of the local flora and fauna is a certainty. Just look around and count the number of bison's, native americans and horses. As a reference, the continent used to be filled by the first two and devoid of the last (for the last 10.000 years or so of course).

The thing about suicide missions most people aren't considering is body disposal. There must be an effective and sanitary means of handling the body. It would be nice if they could make soylent green, but at the very least there should be a device which would render a body as "gone" in a clean and sanitary manner.

Deathstills, clearly. A man's flesh is his own, his water belongs to the other astronauts.

My children understand me better than my wife does. They are a lot like me in most respects. I see life as a whole bunch of comings and goings. We only "mourn" when we have a body and a certainty that the last time has passed. We don't freak out when we part ways after lunch even if in reality, that might be the last time you see someone alive! So when you take it apart, you realize that the mechanism is based in no small part on the notion that it is final.

After you die, there should be a mechanism in the spacecraft to expose you directly and slowly to the vacuum of space. You should be frozen and preserved as best as you can be. Then the ship should gently deposit you on the surface of Mars as intact as you could possibly be. Why?

What if there is an event on Earth like the flame deluge from A Canticle for Leibowitz? A nuclear event where 99% of the world is destroyed and thousands of years later we rediscover science?

Just imagine how surprised they will be to find a human skull on Mars.

After you die, there should be a mechanism in the spacecraft to expose you directly and slowly to the vacuum of space. You should be frozen and preserved as best as you can be. Then the ship should gently deposit you on the surface of Mars as intact as you could possibly be. Why?

What if there is an event on Earth like the flame deluge from A Canticle for Leibowitz? A nuclear event where 99% of the world is destroyed and thousands of years later we rediscover science?

Just imagine how surprised they will be to find a human skull on Mars.

OOH, and make sure they position the first body in the "Han Solo frozen in carbonite" pose prior to freezing!

Here's an interesting thought. Should dead bodies have some kind of long-lasting metal tag to indicate that they were not native of the planet? Perhaps a simple diagram that indicates that this fossilized skeleton found is from the third planet from the sun, not the fourth?Thousands, maybe millions of years from now the skeletons of these people may be found by non-human creatures (be it from Earth or from another planet). I'm sure they would have an appreciation of truly knowing the origin of these skeleto

Last thing I heard, there is still no sign of life on Mars, so shouldn't "tossing the body out of the window" be perfectly clean and sanitary, as long as you don't mind seeing eternally-preserved bodies outside?

We now know something about martian dust airflow, so you could probably get a rough calculation of how long it would take for a frozen corpse to be sandblasted beyond usable recognition...

Last thing I heard, there is still no sign of life on Mars, so shouldn't "tossing the body out of the window" be perfectly clean and sanitary, as long as you don't mind seeing eternally-preserved bodies outside?

We now know something about martian dust airflow, so you could probably get a rough calculation of how long it would take for a frozen corpse to be sandblasted beyond usable recognition...

IANA forensic microbiologist, but I'd guess that the decomposition wouldn't be complete. Anerobes in your body would probably do well, but there wouldn't be anything to eat outside in, and once the internal anerobes digested to a point where they were opened up to the external environment and exposed to mars, I would expect they'd die.

The leftovers and the bacterial byproducts would probably just sit there. So there wouldn't be a body sitting around, but I'd guess that there would be a partially decomp

They grow in the most inhospitable places on Earth. They may possibly adapt to some of the more hospitable places on Mars. Given the chance, they may thrive, and change the face of Mars. Just scatter a bunch around in the best looking places, give it a thousand years, and take another look!

Doing "not so well" doesn't mean that they can't do well enough. I wouldn't rule out altogether an engineered species tailored for Mars.

It's worth noting that there is a huge gap between the worst survivable environments of Earth and the best of Mars. For example, the pressures that lichen survives at on Earth (roughly half of an atmosphere at 19,000 feet) and the best spots on Mars ( Hellas Planitia [wikipedia.org] with a bit over 1% of Earth's atmospheric pressure).

I don't think you've grasped the magnitude of exactly how much atmosphere Mars doesn't have. The surface pressure is zero point something kPa. That's REALLY low pressure. Water at pressures that low is a vapor regardless of temperature. It can't solidify (on its own), let alone exist as a liquid. A standard college physics classroom vacuum pump can't create a vacuum with pressure that low.

That would be an incredibly heavy load to first get to a space station. Even with commercial space flight taking off (teehee), you're still looking at a roughly estimated LEO payload cost per lb (kg) = $4,729 right now. So if you figure an even split between 25 men (180lbs) and 25 women (115lbs) all of whom should be physically fit so they conform to averages, you're bringing 4500lbs of male flesh, and 2875lbs of female flesh. To bring all 7375lbs of that to space you're looking at $34.876 mil just to bring

Replying to myself with the wiki excerpt... First 4 astronauts will cost 6 billion.

Mars One plans to establish the first human settlement on Mars. According to their schedule, the first crew of four astronauts would arrive on Mars in 2023, after a seven month journey from Earth. Further teams would join their settlement every two years, with the intention that by 2033 there would be over twenty people living and working on Mars.

As of June 2012, the mission plan is as follows:[4]
2013: The first 40 astronauts will be selected;[14] a replica of the settlement will be built for training purposes.[9]
2014: The first communication satellite will be produced.
2016: A supply mission will be launched during January (arriving October) with 2,500 kilograms (5,500 lb) of food in a 5 metres (16 ft) diameter variant of the SpaceX Dragon.[9] The fallback if this is not ready in time is either to use a 3.8 metres (12 ft) Dragon or to delay by two years.[17]
2018: An exploration vehicle will launch to pick the location of the settlement.[9]
2021: Six additional Dragon capsules and another rover will launch with two living units, two life support units and two supply units.[9]
2022: A SpaceX Falcon Heavy will launch with the first group of four colonists.[9]
2023: The first colonists will arrive on Mars in a modified Dragon capsule.[9]
2025: A second group of four colonists will arrive.[9]
2033: The colony will reach 20 settlers.[1]

Everything past 2013 is fantasy at this point, because they don't have funding. Mars One is just promotional advertising for a reality show based on selecting astronauts instead of surviving on a tropical island, that's all.

from wikipedia: McCoy was born in 2227. [2] The son of David, [4]:257-258 he attended the University of Mississippi [2] and is a divorcé. [5] In 2266, McCoy was posted as chief medical officer of the USS Enterprise under Captain James T. Kirk who calls him "Bones". [2] McCoy and Kirk are good friends, even "brotherly". [4]:146 The passionate, sometimes cantankerous McCoy frequently argues with Kirk's other confidant, science officer Spock, [1] and occasionally is bigoted toward Spock's Vulcan heritage. [6] McCoy often plays the role of Kirk's conscience, offering a counterpoint to Spock's logic. [1] McCoy is suspicious of technology, [7] especially the transporter; [2] as a physician, he prefers less intrusive treatment and believes in the body's innate recuperative powers. [1]

A sawbones is a slang term used to describe a physician, and more specifically a surgeon, especially one who would have served in battle. The term is often tied to the Civil War, but in fact predates it. Dickens uses it to refer to a doctor in the 1837 novel Pickwick Papers which suggests common use of the expression at least 20 years prior to usage during the American Civil War. http://m.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-sawbones.htm [wisegeek.org]

This isn't 30 second latency we're talking about. When mars is furthest from earth, best case latency is a whopping 42 minutes. That means after you click a link, the very best case is that there are 42 minutes before you get a reply.

No... it is 21 minutes for each packet each way. I've already thought of that, of course. 42 minutes is the round trip time. I've also assumed that TCP/IP is not being used, but some other protocol. Doesn't matter how good that protocol is, though, because you'll never beat 42 minutes during the time Mars is at its farthest from earth. This is why I say "best case"

You can have a proxy on earth for all the TCP/IP, arping, and nameserver I/O. You just need a way to send data to that proxy when you click

"SpaceX founder Elon Musk wants to create a colony on Mars consisting of a population of 80,000, ferried to the planet in a reusable rocket. For the initial trip, the rocket would contain fewer than 10 humans, and enough equipment to found a colony ready for the other 79,990."

If you're in Mars doing a one-way mission with no hopes of returning. What would you do before you died?

I'd make an effort to fuck with people's minds in the future.

I would make an elaborate treasure map of ancient alien civilizations in areas that are suitable for future human settlements. That way when people find my map and realize a government building is built on a location that apparently has ancient alien bones, treasure, etc., they think it was a government conspiracy or cover up and madness will ensue (but I'll be laughing from the heavans).

I would look for a cave and set up fake cave paintings like Prometheus pointing towards the Sun. That way they may send some poor sap to go explore the sun for possible clues (and possibly make great discoveries along the way) but in the end a lot of people will die because the Sun is really dangerous.

And the day I will fall to near death I will walk as far as I can, fall flat on my face, break my protective suit and have my right arm point in some arbitrary direction, so when rigormortous kicks in, my arm stays in that position. That way people will wonder what the hell I was pointing at.

We keep hearing about how banks, firms, etc. that were "too big to fail" have...failed.

Then we hear about how humanity is now global and the future is bright. Are we too big to fail, and thus prone to failure?

The interest in Mars seems less about exploration and more about looking for another planet to inhabit. Taken as a whole, this one may be about done, or rather, the human civilizations on it appear to be teetering over the precipice of internal disaster.

Calling banks "Too big to fail" doesn't mean that they can't fail, it means that we cannot afford to let them fail, hence the massive bailouts. Humanity as a whole is of course similarly too big to fail.

The greatest privilege I can imagine is the chance to live out your years on a frontier, working your fingers to the bone every day to up the survival chances for everyone else. It would be a rough haul, that's for sure - but like bacteria, you'd dying to prepare the ground for later life.

Lets assume they establish a viable colony on Mars, which is so successful it outlives the parent company. Whose responsibility is it then? The Dutch government?Will they have a virtual seat at the UN?What about laws with clear legal language that specify the "earth". "globally", etc... will those laws apply to Mars?If a martian worker wants to telework in the US, will they require a visa or some sort of space permit?

Either there should be no lawyers among the 80,000 or they should ALL be.
One group stands a chance of establishing a utopian society, the other would, at least, be doing all us earthlings a huge favour.

They are now starting the astronaut selection program for a trip in 10 years, but there is no indication whatever that they are concerned about the much more fundamental task of designing a transport ship?!?! Really, really suspicious. What are the prospects supposed to train on/for ?

"People in thirty seven countries have purchased our merchandise, demonstrating their support for Mars One"

OK, I understand. Presumably the foundation managers are well paid. That is no problem even for a non-profit.

They are now starting the astronaut selection program for a trip in 10 years, but there is no indication whatever that they are concerned about the much more fundamental task of designing a transport ship?!?! Really, really suspicious. What are the prospects supposed to train on/for ?

"People in thirty seven countries have purchased our merchandise, demonstrating their support for Mars One"

OK, I understand. Presumably the foundation managers are well paid. That is no problem even for a non-profit.

That isn't even the biggest issue for me. There are several key challenges a real attempt would face, and little to nothing is said about them.
1. Money - Not even considering design, construction or training, and even presuming future price reductions in orbital launch, the launch costs would run north of $100M, and likely much more. Yet almost nothing is said of how that or anything else would be funded
2. Radiation - Both during the trip to Mars, and while on the surface, the crew would be exposed to s

Mars is???
If you returned any of these colonists back to Earth and plunked them down in the worst place you could find such as a dry valley in Antarctica or the top of K2/Everest, they would think they were in paradise.

I highly recommend it. Packing for Mars: The Curious Science of Life in the Void, by Mary Roach, really tells you everything you wanted to know about space travel but were afraid to ask. In fact it tells you things you never even thought to ask about. Like "What really does happen to clothing that is kept in contact with skin without being changed, for weeks?" Like "When they see a turd floating through the cabin, due to someone's carelessness, how do astronauts handle the situation?"

After reading that book, I asked myself the question, "Well, if you won a free all-expenses-paid monthlong trip to the International Space Station, would you accept?" And my honest answer is... I... am... not... sure.

So, my hat's off to those who volunteered, and I hope they have thought it through. Not just the suicide part, but what comes before. Because it sounds like being homeless and living in a car, only not as comfortable.

I think that even some royalty probably said the same about traders who crossed the Atlantic, or tried to climb certain ranges of mountain to get to the next village, or ride the around around certain Cape around South Africa at some point.

You don't need to be stupid to want to go live on a planet of your own (effectively), especially if follow-up missions are likely. You *do* need to screen people for suicidal tendencies, because that can be a major factor - but there's nothing to say that a perfectly sane person wouldn't choose suicide in tough circumstances like they are likely to face anyway.

In fact, one of Man's greatest moments was called "stupid" at the time and ended up suicides. Or you wouldn't know *shit* about the South Pole now.

"I may be some time" doesn't ring a bell about one of our greatest explorers ever?

Big difference:They either had no idea of what they would find (explorers), or knew exactly that great rewards could await them.

Pretty much the only interesting things about Mars are some geological history and potentially a biological history. I'm not saying it isn't cool or valuable to go there, just that it's not that interesting.

Other point: we would know a lot about the South Pole if no one had ever gone there in a stupid suicidal way.

Some people find the geological and potential biological history of Mars intensely interesting. Not to mention the potential biological *present* of Mars - if it ever had life then some/most of it is probably still there, just not on the surface (it's estimated that the vast majority, possibly high 90s%, of Earth life is subterranean microbes) Just because *you* don't think it competes with the next episode of Desperate Housewives isn't any sort of claim as to how inherently interesting it is. We've only begun to scratch the surface of the science to be done on Mars, and everything we've done to date could have been done in a week or two by a research team that was there in person.

Then there's the thrill of being part of Man's first serious offworld expedition and breaking ground for the first offworld colony. Many would say that's worth probably never setting foot on Earth again, and as for the risks of living in a hostile environment, there's plenty of people who risk their lives on a regular basis working hazardous jobs and playing extreme sports. Not really that much of a difference here, except that you're risking your life for a far more magnificent cause and will likely make it into the history books.

Obviously you've never spent time with dedicated scientists - I'm talking the "I've got a closet and comfortable sofa in my office and go home at least a couple times a week" sort. I assure you they do exist and are often very passionate, dynamic people. They just don't really care about the sorts of things most people care about.

As for a lingering death, that's one thing you're pretty much guaranteed not to have on Mars. On Earth yes, especially in the U.S. - you're almost guaranteed one here as you spend your last weeks/months/years in the clutches of a medical industry that's going to go to extraordinary lengths to force your failing body to survive just a little bit longer. On Mars you'll probably die within seconds or minutes, possibly with a few hours beforehand to know it's coming (i.e. if stranded without hope of rescue with X hours of air left). You *might* get terminally sick/injured and be temporarily kept alive in the "medical bay", but it won't linger nearly as long as it would here.

I would fully understand the risk... the certainty that I would never again see my home. I'd never go scuba diving again. I'd never watch the sunrise in a forest. Shit, I'd even miss going to the gym! I'd never see my kids (they're 6 and 8) or any of their kids ever again. I'd never be able to pop down to the store and pick up a McGuffin or widget or a burger.

I'd never get another FP on Slashdot.

But I'd be on Mars. We'd be living with the leading edge of human technology, all alone, with no supplies ever coming by. Yes, I would die on Mars. Maybe within hours of landing. I've got somewhere between 60 and 70 years left on Earth, max. I'd get less than that on Mars, almost certainly. What I've learned, and learned the hard way, is that how long you live isn't as important as how WELL you've lived. Did you push your life to the limits? Did you live up to your potential? What do you regret not doing? Do it. Tomorrow never comes.

Think of what the species would learn from a mission to Mars. That's well worth my life and gladly traded.

And I'd do it for free. Just give me the use of the company vehicle for a few months, then room and board afterwards.

There are many of who have had children and even grandchildren by now. We've contributed to the gene pool as much as we can. What else do we have left other than to look forward to death by one means or another? Wouldn't it be better to go in a project that might advance humanity than sit around wasting its resources?

I was wondering about the same thing. But maybe some people are just incredibly ambitious (in the sense of acquiring honor & fame) to be genuinely OK with sacrificing their lives without otherwise being bonkers.

In 1492, some people would have called Columbus' voyage a suicide mission, yet obviously enough people could be found to man three ships.

you will travel to Mars and die as soon as your food, water, or air supply runs out, whichever comes first. Not only that, due to some spacecraft malfunction, you may not even make it out of earth's atmosphere. There is no chance of coming back, ever.

and

you will travel across the ocean, it's very dangerious, and you may never make it, but if you reach land on the other side, there's a good chance you could live another 20 or 30 years over there, or possibly even

a one-way mission is not a suicide mission, resupply is a much easier and less resource intensive operation. You are merely judging more adventurous people, those with a pioneering spirit, by your very sheltered and coddled lifestyle.

I find it odd/annoying that they call this a "suicide" mission rather than a "colonization" mission. The real essence here is that it's a one-way trip. I haven't seen anything to suggest that they're abandoning the colonists, or sending them to any more certain a death than we'd all see here on Earth.

There is one problem with calling it "colonization", in that we're generally thinking of post-reproductive-age people, and at some point any viable colony is going to need kids for its future. But given the assumption of a second wave, sending older people on the first wave probably is a good idea. Get the basics nailed down before worrying about kids.

Or have I got this all wrong, and made assumptions myself? Are they planning on sending people on a one-way, fixed-duration mission, and there is no surviving past that duration?

I have traveled literally millions of miles in my lifetime, just to see what lay over the horizon, as often as not. I was fortunate enough that other people paid for my traveling, so I was able to earn a living. But, the travel is what it has all been about.

So - tell me again about stupidity and suicide, please?

At age 56, and with bad knees, moving my carcass to a planet with lower gravity would be a nice thing. Throw in the new horizons, and it's a complete win-win situation for me. Suicide? Driving to work is a suicidal stunt, in and of itself, for most Americans.

I disagree with your example, but not completely with what your trying to say.

80 is far too old. You'd have to put in to your calculations the odds of someone surviving, and at 80 I would say you have a greater risk of health issues, even if your healthier then most 30 year olds in a lot of respects.

I think a mix of ages would be best.. because your looking at such a long period of time, you woun't have anyone under say 35 probably eligable for this, so I'd say 35-60 or so might be good.

In an air-tight environment, almost all of that water is excreted again at some point. Most as water vapour in your breath, some as urine, some as sweat, some in your faeces etc.

If you put a human in a hermetically-sealed box and gave them enough food and water for a week, that water would still be around in the box at the end. It's just a matter of collecting it.

Move forward to a non-hermetically sealed box and imperfect collection mechanisms and all you have to do it make up the difference. That's significantly less.

Your primary fuel will be hydrogen and oxygen. We actually think we can find most of that for a "return journey" by breaking down water found on the planet itself, it's so plentiful. Ignoring that, igniting said fuel (say, for warmth) produces pure water as the exhaust gas. Failing actually finding it on the planet, you can capture those gases from the air and make water by igniting hydrogen in oxygen. It's just a matter of time and electricity, both of which would (presumably) be plentiful on a mission to Mars.

Ignoring *that* - there is water ice on Mars. We know it. And in 20 years time, we'll know it even better. If there isn't, then taking along enough to make up the losses for several months/years at a time is a no-brainer. Hell, we got to the moon for several people without water shortages, any mission to Mars will scale up similarly.

Water really isn't a problem. Heat is your problem. Heating makes up a HUGE fraction of our energy usage even today, and Mars is colder (-143 to about 35 centigrade on the surface depending on latitude and time of day). So the hottest part of the hottest day on Mars is a warm summer's day, the coldest part of the coldest day is colder than the coldest recorded temperature ever on Earth.

So whatever way you look at it, the energy needed to keep you warm, and your surroundings warm, especially if you're going to build a colony to support life long-term, is through the roof compared to the difficulty of digging down or extracting water from the atmosphere with even the most inefficient tools.

White object radiate less enery but also absorb less. Black objects radiate more energy, but also absorb more. As pointed out it mainly is cold there, you you want to keep your energy instead of absorbing it.

The solutions:-Solar power. No clouds on mars.-nuclear power densest energy you can carry.-really long extension cord.