Stef's Blog - a native London Southlander and unrepentant 'Conspiraloon™' who doesn't trust anyone, not even himself. Sometimes I take pictures. I also enjoy swearing immensely and think much faster than I can type, so each post comes guaranteed to include at last one confusing typo. OK?

Saturday, October 04, 2008

The Grand Old Folk of York - They had Ten Thousand pounds...

There seem to be quite a few people currently shuffling money around from bank to bank in a desperate attempt to avoid having their savings evaporate

Of course, given that the root cause of the problem is the inherent worthlessness of the money itself there really isn't much point

Some of the more shrewd savers are looking to switch their loot into gold - but, thanks to its rigged low price, it's in short supply. On top of that, even if someone did mange to build up a small stock, all those lovely new money laundering laws will have the totally unforeseen consequence of the authorities knowing exactly who to call on if and when things really do get that bad

You might be one of those people who were planning to get into the housing market when prices fell and have been saving what they can in recent years.

And yes, house prices will fall - but unless you can find a house made out of gingerbread and coal, the rising prices of everything except houses will mean that you won't be able to feed or warm yourself inside your lovely new home

Inflation must and will be allowed to destroy the capital of the minority of ordinary people who were fortunate or astute enough to avoid debt slavery

but if you must go through the ritual of switching a worthless accounting entry from one useless fiat bank to another useless fiat bank there really can, and will, be only one...

whatever else comes out of all of this it seems pretty clear that a lot more people are thinking about and facing up to the nature of money (especially the small issue that most of it doesn't actually exist)

which is pretty good news in the long run imho

given the central role played by money in most peoples' lives - in it's acquisition and spending - it is pretty fucking astonishing how little people understand about the stuff

Another great thing about the current crisis is watching the sheer, stupefied confusion of all those Conspiraloon bashers out there who can't bring themselves to admit that they haven't the first idea what the fuck is going on

- They didn't see It coming

- They don't know where It's going

- They don't know what to do about It

That allegedly rational world of mainstream orthodoxy and narratives which you had to be insane to disbelieve is being exposed for the pile of mendacious shit that it is

It almost makes the prospect of living through an Economic Apocalypse worth it

A friend of mine who lives in New York just told me banks there have completely stopped supplying mortgages and car loans, and a great many people are trying to get refunds on their shopping in order get extra credit back. No such thing as savings over there. Scary.

Here in Germany they have what is called a Tausch system in certain communities.You work not for money but for points that enable you to swap your points for goods,,for example,I´m a Carpenter.I put on a door for someone I get 50 points,,,I could use my points to "buy" food from the local Farmer,,,etc,,it has its limitations obviously but the more and varied the Tausch ring the more possibilities you have.

This kinda of thing may become more popular soon!,,,it is of course the way things worked before money came along.

Whilst being a conspiraloon, I am like conspiraloon bashers in that whilst:

a) I did see it coming (fellow conspiraloons kept my faith in the doomsday scenario alive in spite of the media onslaught) and

b) I have a v. good idea of where it's going (neo-feudalism, anyone?),

c) I also don't have a bloody clue as to what to do about it. Lots of options have been suggested - emigration is regrettably not practicable for me (or at least by the time it could be practicable, it'll be way past closing time in the UK - i.e. from a currency exchange and an island fortress exit tax point of view). Anyway, I don't see a place that is going to be particularly clear of the forthcoming neo-feudalism (even N.Z. may change to a pro-US government - viva le-GM crops).

I wonder whether a small semi-dependent territory (e.g. the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man)might be considered insignificant enough by the powers that be to escape their attention for a few decades.

Assuming that I could get in.

Trouble with gold is, that even if I could smurf purchase a lot of it under the radar, I'd have to find a way of replacing my Prius' exhaust and oil sump pan with ones made of gold and hope that I don't scrape the underside on a road hump or whilst rolling onto a car ferry.

An economic apocalypse is only worth living through if you are able to have a good few decades of life on the other side.

the problem with a Tausch system from the Establishment's point of view is that you can't tax it, charge interest on it or inflate it

there's no reason anyone in all fairness should, as all you're doing is exchanging one thing (labour) for another (labour or goods) and not making a profit

of course, if you couldn't rip people's labour off with tax, interest and inflation you'd have to take a bigger chunk from people who are making unearned gains just from owning stuff and that wouldn't be cricket

thanks to the magic of the currency carry trade NZ will go down as hard as anywhere else

and, as luck would have it, the guy who's set to be the next NZ PM used to work for the Federal Reserve and has the kind of 'reforming' agenda we in the UK would find very familiar

it's a small world

re. living through Economic Apocalypses, all any of us can do, if that is what is to be, is to do to our little bit to ensure that the right people get blamed and dealt with this time, just for a change

"all any of us can do, if that is what is to be, is to do to our little bit to ensure that the right people get blamed and dealt with this time, just for a change"

Us and what army?

I'm in a bit of misanthropic mood, today. Sorry.

An interesting book worth a gander is "Power and Profit: The Merchant in Medieval Europe" by Peter Spufford. Amongst many other lessons, he describes the reintroduction of coin into the 14th century agricultural economy by the monied city classes (mostly royalty/noblemen).

At harvest time, coin went out into the country.At taxation/tithe time, coin came back into the city.

This cycle persisted for some years until suddenly (long after dependence on the use of coin had been entrenched) coin stopped leaving the city (poor market prices, hiked tithes/taxation).

Difference between then and now is that the money was real rather than fractional reserve jobbies at high leverage.

He who fails to learn from history is doomed to repeat it. Even in my schooldays (early 1980s) kids were taught medieval history (particularly about the ins and outs of feudalism). Certainly not in recent times since preparations are afoot to repeat history. Again.

but I personally believe that the majority of people, for all their weaknesses, are misguided and heavily medicated, not wicked

I certainly go along with that, my experience that people are generally as good as they can be, and that is often modified by their environment (social/economic..whatever), the big problem is the non general cases know this as well, which is why chaos and induced confusion suits them better than boring old stability.

Not all countries have those laws Stef. If you bought 4K with no documentation, how could they know whether you bought 10x 4K in a year?

If you’re subject to controls on purchasing/trading, it's a piece of pie to get around it.

If there are controls, no prizes for guessing why! If they manipulate the price of Gold doesn't that tell us something? WHY do they want control it and HOW come they are able to try and control it? Why do they have a huge gold reserves? Because it ISN'T the clever thing to do???

That gold retained its value is proof enough as to it's usefulness and effectiveness. I can't see how just being a metal is of any relevance? Land is highly valuable too, but If which is easier to keep possession of???

When the US tried to make illegal holding gold ($35/oz thingy) I have it on good authority that many smart USans sent their gold overseas in anticipation the US would a few days later put the lower value on the dollar to that of gold.

No other token of value anyone can think of is better than gold. It is a cornerstone of a fair economic system.

If there are controls, no prizes for guessing why! If they manipulate the price of Gold doesn't that tell us something? WHY do they want control it and HOW come they are able to try and control it? Why do they have a huge gold reserves? Because it ISN'T the clever thing to do???

All it tells us is that gold is a useful component of Their system. 'They' also go out of their way to control the guns and drugs businesses but that doesn't convince me that guns and drugs are good things

Gold won't feed a hungry child or put clothes on its back.

Gold's real inherent value is a fraction of what is currently placed on it (like that other Rothschild controlled commodity scam - the diamonds business)

And, more to the point, by placing too much value on gold ordinary people yield a tremendous amount of power to those who have nothing to offer this world other than the fact they've accumulated a mound of it

I'm not denying that a few coins might prove useful in the months and years ahead but AFAIC the bankers can keep all the gold, provided the rest of us get to keep the land

and whilst I'm not a Christian myself I do think the New Testament is chock full of little nuggets of wisdom

In the context of the current discussion I'm thinking particularly about 'Render unto Caesar...' which, if interpreted in a particualr way, could form the basis of a nicely subversive little philosophy

cbsky"Gold won't feed a hungry child or put clothes on its back." - Ah Stef, that's not fair. No token of money will do that. That doesn't negate that gold is the best measure and store value and fascilitate trade.

Only food will fill a hungry child, only clothes will cover it. Given that most people do not make their own clothes from scratch or grow (enough of) their own food, these things must be purchased or you must offer your labor/skills for them. Even though I advocate every civillian on the planet is involved in cultivation of food in some form, a token of wealth is necessary for commerce, and of none beats gold.

Diamonds have little intrinsic wealth. A Diamonds value comes (figuratively) 90% from its advertising and hype. Diamionds can be synthesised. Curently, no nuclear perturbment can produce a 197Au nucleus.

Gold is the biz! I would accept that in a system in which gold trade may be restricted or hampered then having 100% of your wealth in gold will result in a rather difficult life. However, anyone looking to save should try and hold a significant amont of the stuff, not just a few coins.

Placing emphasis on gold is no different to the current reality, in fact it's better than placing the emphasis on useless paper which is infinitely more manipulatable, and which they they have near FULL control over, which is what i said earlier (about not paying paying gold it's due importance but stick with the paper is worse!)

There will always be schemes/scams/plots and struggles to control the tool of trade, but we need to ask which offers the best way ahead? That way for me at least is gold.

I agree land is excelent in terms of masure of wealth, becasue you can groq your own money. Food counts as money in Islamic economics. Rice, Sugar, Wheet... But I wonder what names would turn up if you look at the most fertile lands in the world? When i advocate use of gold it is in the Islamic fashion and not Just gold (a misconception I feel amongst many). Land and consumable goods are an integral part of that! :)

Stef and all, I advise you to read up on Islamic economics. Shekh Imran Hoseins books and DVD's are great for this. Remember... You dont have to be religious to use this system...

"in itself, such a move wouldn't provide a solution to theft through interest" - In the Islamic system there is no interest :))) Gold isn't the be all and end all of a just economic system, but it's foundation, and it's good that you identify it not being so.

The more complicated the system the more scope there is for clever scammers to twist it. Economics should be simple - accessible and understandable to all. Only horrendous frauds like interest take economics away from the masses.

Actually, what you identify puts you very close to the Islamic system of economics.

The Zakat system of economics and would crush all this fake trade and the oppressive yolks. The Zakat would bring about the necessary redistribution.

Not being a Muslim, I can understand your scepticism, which is why I implore you to check it out.

As for Render unto Caesar... Well, I don't know the background on that, but it can be interpreted in a number of ways. Was it said? Were those the exact words? That Council of Nicea again.

ps: what looks like .wr file extensions to the files I posted earlier, they should read ".wmv.html" for all files. Blogger has chopped the 'm' to look like an 'r'

Well, I can fix computer systems networks and have rudimentary knowledge in other areas...

But I understand your point, we've lost a lot of "real" jobs and industries, eg manufacturing.

I picked the jobs I used as an example fairly carefully to reflect the fact that not only are a lot of us engaged in useless jobs we're in engaged in useless jobs that nobody wants us to do - enforcing poxy regulations or selling crap that's positively harmful to any mugs who buy it

One of the fringe benefits of our wonderful new surveillance society is that it enables the powers that be to fleece people evenly more effectively, bit by bit, whilst imprisoning them

It's my opinion that 'they' knew the system would eventually collapse. But, I think they were of the opinion that they'd be able to blow a few more containing bubbles first before it finally popped for the last time, and given the undefined US $700bln "bailout" has been approved, the FTSE today fell another 4% it seems like this could be the one (famous last words).

I would be shocked if they didn't make preparations for the crash. Which of course means we should prepare as best we can too. That means junking as much paper crap as you can and buying gold or silver. If one is forced to ‘register’ or whatever, and they chase you later, simply say you traded it for something.

If the government order gold to be recalled (or whatever system people use outside govt control) then we must resist. It would be utterly stupid to comply. The government has no right to take what is yours, and as for the queen/subject crap, Screw the queen. Who gave her permission to have power over us?

It is unquestionable that Gold has always been the best store of wealth in any crisis. It's high value to weight ratio and of course it's inherent persistent value guarantee that. None of that changes because wealthy scum have also realized they will have to use gold later too.

It is obvious to anyone who knows Muslim and Indian society that gold is a vital part of their investment/wealth securing culture and collectively they have reasonable stocks. In times of crisis governments will become increasingly irrelevant and so how much they have in reserve is irrelevant.

If the bad boys sitting on top of the pyramid are 'banking' on gold becoming the de facto means of trade then we should get a slice of the pie as we are going to need some system. What else would we do?

Land as a means of wealth is also meaningless when not in peace-time.

"We run a very real risk of seeing the system change without any real change of management" - But no change of trade system will depose these people. Do you have one in mind? They will only be deposed by the people, either vigilante style and/or finally get control of their political system as a means of justice for the suffering and injustice they've dished out over the years.

Remember, citizens own about one third (my estimate) of global gold. There is no other asset which can empower people more than gold.

It's only we keep listening and slavishly obeying 'them' and their fiat-fixing-gold-price (which of course is actually a measure of the dollar plus all the scams used to affect its price, rather than the actual value of gold) and other restrictions on all trade, then were stuck.

The answer is stop listening to them, buy a reserve of gold. If stormy weather strikes, trade amongst yourselves using gold, rather than barrows full of worthless bits of paper with the stupid queen Elizardbeths head on it.

If one want's to adopt their regulations in times of crisis or otherwise, then you are opening up the door to those very perils.

Of course as we touch the 'system' those perils do and will impinge upon us - there's little we can do about that, but the further we keep 'the system', the more realistic and sustainable the trade system comes. Removal of their fraudulent constraints will see the natural equilibrium re-establish itself.

I know in the UK a gold micro-economy is pretty small and it's hard for people to 'feel' it, and it is quite a long way from being a widespread (hence viable) counter system.

Similar to what was mentioned earlier... We are all using the stock market value to ascertain the progression of the financial crisis, oui?

But aren't those headline values (DOW, STI, FTSE etc..) manipulated to some extent by TPTB? What is the extent of the manipulation?

If TPTB have a large degree of power over the Stock Exchange prices then it implies the crisis is primarily a con. If however TPTB's influence is marginal, then it's the system that's coming down and there is unlikely to be a recovery, despite all and sundry clamouring to get back to more of the same rubbish system we had before.

Amongst loons, I guess the default opinion will be TPTB have major influence, in which case the turmoil will be painful but not world changing panic-driven frenzied crisis.

It would be great to hear from fellow loons how deep 'their' influence actually goes.

..and right now it looks as if currencies are heading towards implosion

which gets us back to the gold thing

what I find fascinating is that I have encountered people via this blog who broadly agree on the causes of the current situation but differ so much on the subject of what kind of money we should be using instead - ranging from uber gold bugs to wanting to do away with money completely

personally, I think we can't avoid money but doing away with usury and implementing honest accounting of the amount of £££ in circulation (not too much, not too little) are much more important to me than what the tokens are made from

I don't see how individual company share price, differs so much from the effective sum of company share prices, namely the stock market index. And it's fair to say it's a popular quick toe-dip used by a number of number of loons.

I'm of the opinion the FTSE is a reasonable indicator of overall health of companies. Clearly when the share price drops like a stone, it's not the smell of roses that hangs in the air.

Absolutely it is be manipulated, as was pointed out, and, it was actually the basis of a point I was trying to make, namely; Whatever criteria one chooses to assess the financial situation by, (rest assured, you'll find the fingerprints of the TPTB there too!), the degree of control over that indicator will (I should have said 'could') provide a measure of authenticity/severity of this crisis.

If they have control over some index and the index shows freefall, it's likely being deliberately driven that way. If they have little control of it and the picture is gloomy, then it's very likely to be real.

I think money supply is pretty insufficient to assess financial health, but it is one of the the arms of the illusory octopus.

Stock market crashes are significant in that many peoples pensions are invested in the stock market.

As for gold advocates, or uber gold bugs as you call them, they have the best solution which isn't being met by the slightest hint of an alternative.

Gold, the eternally/intrinsically valued beautifully coloured metal, whose limited availability inherently is a HUGE curb against inflation. It stores and retains wealth better than anything, historically proven to be global tradeablity, useful and portable for times of crisis.

This bug is a happy bug.

One reason why I'm so in strongly in favour of gold (religious bit aside) is because if this really is the big crisis, there is only one last big bubble I can think of, the rammifications of which are DIRE. It involves the biometric database. It is... (near)global electronic money, and Dear Lord, that would make paper money look positively marvellous!

I'm of the opinion the FTSE is a reasonable indicator of overall health of companies.Clearly when the share price drops like a stone, it's not the smell of roses that hangs in the air

It's a measure of the health of quoted companies not privately controlled ones

There's a whole world of privately managed, undisclosed capital out there which controls the things we really need - food, land, water, energy

That continues to do very nicely, thank you very much, whatever the publicly quoted markets are up to

Most people who are going to suffer from this depression, as with previous ones, are going to suffer as the result of inflation and then deflation

The most significant immediate impact of the current market drops is not to hit pension funds are taking, it's the effect they have on quoted bank capitalisation/ reserves - and as the banks get hit there'll be even less money in circulation

As Adam Smith said:Labour was the first price, the original purchase - money that was paid for all things. It was not by gold or by silver, but by labour, that all wealth of the world was originally purchased.

and no great fan of the shareholder manager model

There is absolutely no problem with fiat money, it lies with who it is creates it and what they charge (which should be nothing).

Fetishising gold is as daft and short term as taking stock markets as seriously as people are encouraged to do.

Gold's value has much to do with managed scarcity. Fuck with that, as the Hunt brothers tried to do with silver, and it suddenly wouldn't look so good.

We're going to need something more than short term survivalist bunkum if things are going to get any better.

I agree, in the current circumstances it might look a 'smart' move. Can everybody get that 'smart'?

Eventually you are going to have to work for the man who has the gold mine (GW Bush 1 is a major figure with the rapacious Barrick Gold I seem to recall - smart guy).

Why not organise a beneficial form of fiat currency,one with purely extrinsic value, one which doesn't require africans to die underground for?

I can't imagine private companies being shock-proof against the quakes of this stock market crashes. Post-event Government policy (here I go again, ready to get my fingers burned by putting a crumb of faith in the greedy govt) is surely likely to impinge upon private companies after such traumatic events.

They may be more shielded, but doesn't private liability and tax mean the extent/proliferation/existence of private companies is, excuse the unintentional punn, limited?

The reason for company floatation is that they profit raking potential is vastly superior. I can well imagine a few choice nest-egg companies are kept in reserve, but nothing which ultimately couldn't be regulated against (or liberated by the needy masses. )

As for floatation lemons, no dispute there, but I’ve no data about the $ balance of failures to "successes". If the average was negative I don't think we'd anybody could clamour to float.

There are still utility/food companies outside private hands. But private/public/nationalised companies won't mean much difference to the average sit on bums Joe soaps, if their govt is in the pockets if Mr Rottingchild et al.

I mentioned pensions only to show FTSE values and drops can't for most people be brushed off so lightly.

Granted auditing is a grand con. Enron, Shell... I know some auditors that have earned millions. Such salaries arn't going to be awarded just be seeing if some ledgers balance, No siree! Accountants that made up huge amounts of paper to cover up poor paperwork and company corruption are also not-unfamiliar to me.

I am not saying a companies share reflects its true value, rather the change of share reflects company health. Vibrant companies display increases, terminally ill companies, such as Northern rock, as you did well to document, show a dive in price.

To finish on a quirky point, In a documentary 'breaking the Mirror' by John Pilger, Pilger exposes one of the largest corporations in the world, Rupert Murdochs "News International", as paying paltry sums of Tax because it is registered in the Dutch Antilles (Islands off the North East of South America). Strangely, wiki says this...

"The Netherlands Antilles was scheduled to be dissolved as a unified political entity on 15 December 2008, so that the five constituent islands would attain new constitutional statuses within the Kingdom of the Netherlands,[2] but this dissolution has been postponed to an indefinite future date.[3]"

Strange coincidence that in these times dissolution has been scrapped, isn't it?

If the average was negative I don't think we'd anybody could clamour to float.

Flotations are to liquidate assets, nothing more. The process of underwriting covers the lemon cases. For a handsome fee a financial 'institution' will guarantee a certain price. This gives buyers a sense of confidence and through that confidence the price is set.No doubt the underwriters will hedge against the possibility of failure, and they will have had their fee.You need a certain amount of surplus capital to chase flotations, so don't expect too many in the next few years.

@ paul.Yes, I'd agree labour is the initiator of exchange, but the important thing is, what is that labour worth? The 'take' is as noteworthy as the 'give'.

Fiat currency is dangerous in that EVERY single fiat currency as been abused, has entertained inflation and devaluation.

I really disagree about what you call fetishising gold. A token must be used, there is none better than a naturally limited token, there is none better than a token with intrinsic value.

I'd like to ask why is it short term? and I'd pre-empt tht request with a possible explanation as to why you may think such a thing, and that is, because you are contemplating its use still will withing the shadow of the present fraudulent system.

The full value of gold will be seen when the system it operates in allows it's potential to be realised, however it is still the best currency even inside the aforementioned shadow.

I'm not talking about gold in terms of survivalism, (and I read that good survivalist towny/country folk post you posted a few weeks ago) I am talking about it in terms of widespread capital paralysis, where life still goes on but there are massive problems in dealing with the le fiat de jour.

I feel a bit uneasy in the suggestion my advocacy of gold means I bear responsibility to Africans dying! As though supporters of a free health service are in some way responsible for hospitals deaths by MRSA. If the frigging stinking rich gold companies gave a toss about the safety of it's employees, death rates could be the same as normal death rates in ordinary life. But of course, that would reduce profitability.

Show me a fiat that's not abuseable (like gold) then maybe gold might have a rival.

Yes, I'd agree labour is the initiator of exchange, but the important thing is, what is that labour worth? The 'take' is as noteworthy as the 'give'.

Well it is something that is gifted to us all at birth. (But commodification has taken care of that ruling class problem)Fiat currency is dangerous in that EVERY single fiat currency as been abused, has entertained inflation and devaluation.

And unions and governments are all corrupt so we should dump them as a bad idea, even though they, not capitalism or correct choice of token, have been the major engine of improvement. I really disagree about what you call fetishising gold. A token must be used, there is none better than a naturally limited token, there is none better than a token with intrinsic value.

I consider a worthless token as better as it would have utility rather than value and would limit benefit through accumulation/manipulation. There's not even a hand luggage allowance when we part this world. I think king tut showed that.I'd like to ask why is it short term? and I'd pre-empt tht request with a possible explanation as to why you may think such a thing, and that is, because you are contemplating its use still will withing the shadow of the present fraudulent system.

I'm not contemplating it at all, I just see people wondering how they can hang on to what they've got, natural enough, but realise that most have fuck all anyway, including your average gold miner. I think the current hysteria borders on the existential, rather than a cool appraisal of the material.Fuck the markets, they never did, or ever will do, me any good. They're not designed with me in mind.The full value of gold will be seen when the system it operates in allows it's potential to be realised, however it is still the best currency even inside the aforementioned shadow.

It's been around a long time, see tut again, but whether it has ever been the solution, I can't say that I see.I'm not talking about gold in terms of survivalism, (and I read that good survivalist towny/country folk post you posted a few weeks ago) I am talking about it in terms of widespread capital paralysis, where life still goes on but there are massive problems in dealing with the le fiat de jour.

I think a fiat people could have confidence in would do the job just as well. Fiat may be a boogie man for many, but its problem is in its abuse, and its not the only problem, let alone the root of all evil.I feel a bit uneasy in the suggestion my advocacy of gold means I bear responsibility to Africans dying! As though supporters of a free health service are in some way responsible for hospitals deaths by MRSA. If the frigging stinking rich gold companies gave a toss about the safety of it's employees, death rates could be the same as normal death rates in ordinary life. But of course, that would reduce profitability.

I'm just saying that's how it is with gold...there's not a lot under the ground of merry old england. Spain had to go to the trouble of genocide just to get enough...and that wasn't enough.Show me a fiat that's not abuseable (like gold) then maybe gold might have a rival.

Show me a society that has blossomed beneath the glow of gold. The fetishism I talk about is like everybody going around on all fours just in case the earth disappears beneath them.Humankind is an imaginative species, we could believe in a proper fiat, one that we didn't have to pay for.

...and another thing. Is gold unabuseable? Can I believe the hallmark or do I get an assay on every transaction, how do I measure actual production? Producer temptations would be equal to any fiat, and it does have to be produced, and no one knows how much there is.Chasing rainbows in my opinion.

Without commodification, heaven help the sick or injured worker or the one that need to look after a dependent.

We should dump these governments, oh yeah we should. Unions had a place but are largely corrupt and helped enable the Brit govt to kill over 1m Iraqi's. Hurray for the unions, splendind job. Where's me subs?

But comparison with gold doing away with fiat isn't I feel analogous to doing away with govts/unions, despite me being broadly in favour of them! Proper unions, unions displaying solidarity, now that's a different much nicer kettle of fish.

Besides, there exists a ready made, viable alternative to fiat that would come on-line in weeks. Gold/fiat. Whats there to replace corrupt Govts or once valiant unions?

Worthless tokens still radiate inflationary pressures due to their ability to produced in any quanitiy desired and can be forged. Tally sticks are simply the 'w' version of e-money - wood-money.

Re: accumulation/manipulation, you are discussing the use of gold in the curent unsustainable and injust system. That's certainly not my preference. Where Gold is in short supply, wheat, barley, rice, sugar and dates etc. make up for the deficiency of gold. It would make no sense for someone to hoard gold in the a proper and fair ecnomic system - a system markedly absent in the western world.

Re: handluggage/king tut, nothing to do with me.

Gold did the job wonderfully. The Islamic so called 'empire' showed as much. Yes it decayed towards the end; it is said the last caliphs embraced riba/usury. The propserity of the Arab kindgom was one reason why the "pope" decided it was time for a crusade or two. The Islamic economic history is testament to gold and the best system for it to operate within. I don't see a 1000+ year example for fiat, or even a quarter century example for the success of fiat. I believe the Thai dynasty, Chinese and Japanese dynasties also exhibit a successful use of gold.

I'm sorry, I'm getting tired very quickly now - been busy on the web today. I have to go get some sleep.

It's a great thread this amongst respected loons who are doing well to test my dearly held posiiton.

It seems to me the term 'usury' has morphed and lost is full meaning; to become only associated with the charging of Interest. The other corrupting factors have been forgotten about, which actually have the same effect as interest, but aren't as instantly visualised.

To me, expansion of money supply by creating more fiat is usurious - it's inflation, and it undermines the economic system. As is it's opposite - reduction of fiat money supply, i.e. deflation. These two devices, because they can be created and destroyed on the whims of some, ultimately will be manipulated by those seeking to minimise risk i.e. to enable unjustified gain.

Banks, via mortgages, employ usury - double usury!! not only because they charge interest, but because they minimise their risk by taking away the house of a defaulter, to enables the bank to sell again to recover it's losses.

Inventing schemes like this to minimise risk without honest sweat of labor is not conducive to a healthy economy. At the same time, when it comes to credit, one party must embrace risk, the other must embrace the prospect of unexpected gain. E.g. if the lender company collapses, the purchaser has his debts written off. (The house was already his under the initial contract).

Business is a noble if it embraces risk, meaning an investor MUST be prepared to lose all in pursuit of trying to make a profit. Equlibria of "market forces" (remember now... REAL market forces not shadowy forces as we've done away with the shadow usurious schemes) will determine the extent to which this is done. Richer on the whole will take bigger risks as they have bigger amounts of wealth to invest, and will suffer bigger losses - BUT! in a fair economic system it doesn't lead to perpetual ruin like it does in this system, because the market is now fair and will always rewards the hard worker irrespective of his history)

A lender of money must be willing to lose ALL his investment and NOT charge interest or a free that is disproportional to the effort put in, when executing the exchange.

Swapping two bowls of inferior rice for one bowls of superior quality rice is usurious too.

I'm not pretending this system I'd like to see (which is very socialist in nature) is proofed against inventive fraudsters, but the majority of people will mutually gain from the fruits of their labor and will be more willing to engage in honest up-front trade. Financial worries are minimised and the populations mind is more peaceful.

Regulators to detect and prosecute fraudsters would ne necessary as they are necessary in ANY system.

Re: Unions:Please don't misunderstand my view about unions. Corrupt Unions should be scraped - without question, without hesitation! but that shouldn't be the end of the story! They should be instantly replaced by a corrupt-free alternative. Or more easily, simply remove the corrupt element of the existing system. I never advocate a void! I don't subscribe to Neoliberalism despite rash suppositions.

I never said it was unions behind the gulf war. The incorrect suggestion is a very unfair thing to say.

"Unions had a place but are largely corrupt and helped enablethe Brit govt to kill over 1m Iraqi's. Hurray for the unions, splendind job. Where's me subs?"

Depending on the individual of course, one might be able to differentiate helping a government kill over 1m Iraqi's by failing to live up to the socialist principles supposedly imbued in trades unionism, such as suspension of labour which would otherwise allow the unimpeded slaughter on behalf of her mudjesty and actually physically pulling the trigger oneself. But as you know, there are people of fine talk but do nowt but sit-on-arse.

There hasn’t been a golden calf for quite some time. Don’t see one now either.

"Unions had a place but are largely corrupt and helped enablethe Brit govt to kill over 1m Iraqi's. Hurray for the unions, splendind job. Where's me subs?"

Depending on the individual of course, one might be able to differentiate helping a government kill over 1m Iraqi's by failing to live up to the socialist principles supposedly imbued in trades unionism, such as suspension of labour which would otherwise allow the unimpeded slaughter on behalf of her mudjesty and actually physically pulling the trigger oneself. But as you know, there are people of fine talk but do nowt but sit-on-arse.

There hasn’t been a golden calf for quite some time. Don’t see one now either.

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