I have learned by following and learned by using routines and I have noticed that when I am doing a routine I really have to work on and be conscious of my connection with my partner vs. when you are just following you kind of have to do that anyway yes? A coach once told me that she judged not on an individual dancing but on a partnership... even in pro/am. So I guess what i'm saying is that I don't think it is important if you choose to lead/follow or use a routine as long as you have a strong connection with your partner

I think when we start we have a very weak physical connection, very weak communication but tend to actually dance independently. As we get better the connection gets stronger as does the communication and we dance together but rather restrictedly. What I am learning now is to again have a weak physical connection but with excellent communication and very free dancing. Only the latter allows each dancer to dance to their fullest.

However, the stages are all valid - and I find myself in two at the same time: with my pro the connection is almost not there but the communication is intense. With DP the connection is a little more physical but the communication is not quite as good.

Ohh.. I didn't mean just physical connection. I mean i think that's important (obviously) but i meant connection in a broader sense that includes communication... oh how i wish i could explain myself correctly LOL.... Really good point elise!

I tell our brats kids that you can have connection without contact, and contact without connection. Connection is reciprocal between the partners, contact should be that connection palpably manifested in most events, but contact isn't necessary for some rudimentary lead/follow exercises off the basics, or higher level solo work. In standard/smooth, obviously, it usually is- there are various points of contact, but small things, like new yorks, fifths, underarm turns, cross-bodies, etc.

Ohh.. I didn't mean just physical connection. I mean i think that's important (obviously) but i meant connection in a broader sense that includes communication... oh how i wish i could explain myself correctly LOL.... Really good point elise!

I had an interesting experience with this at Twin Cities Open yesterday. As I mentioned somewhere else, I dance silver standard but I also do standard dancesport series events, which are open, so the understanding between me and my teacher is that he can lead anything he thinks I can follow and he is usually creative with it, and we have not set up any kind of routine that I am aware of for the dancesport series. I did not do that great in my closed silver standard events, I felt tense, I have not placed well in the scholarship (worse than I expected). But then I had about a 30 minute break and did my dancesport series event. I was expecting to be last in it. There were 3 other ladies in it, who presumably had open routines. I only won it once before against one other person - an am guy, which is expectedly easier. Anyway, we just went out there with no expectations of beating anyone, and to our surprise, we were first in it, and it was a solid win from the look of the marks. I am still wondering how that happened (the judging panel was the same for all multi-dances, so that effect is out). I definitely felt more relaxed when I did dancesport series compared to earlier silver scholarship.

I don't memorize routines for comps. I will go out on the floor with an idea of what I'm going to do first, which is important for smooth; I need to have decided to that in order to pick a starting place. I have certain sequences (walls, for smooth) that I like to do, but no fixed routines. I have tried routines in the past and I've found that they just add more stress.

I'm pretty good at improvising on the floor, if I do say so myself, and to me that's an easier way to operate during a comp. Besides being an advantage when dealing with floorcraft, I also find that it gives more flexibility to respond to the music.

I had an interesting experience with this at Twin Cities Open yesterday. As I mentioned somewhere else, I dance silver standard but I also do standard dancesport series events, which are open, so the understanding between me and my teacher is that he can lead anything he thinks I can follow and he is usually creative with it, and we have not set up any kind of routine that I am aware of for the dancesport series. I did not do that great in my closed silver standard events, I felt tense, I have not placed well in the scholarship (worse than I expected). But then I had about a 30 minute break and did my dancesport series event. I was expecting to be last in it. There were 3 other ladies in it, who presumably had open routines. I only won it once before against one other person - an am guy, which is expectedly easier. Anyway, we just went out there with no expectations of beating anyone, and to our surprise, we were first in it, and it was a solid win from the look of the marks. I am still wondering how that happened (the judging panel was the same for all multi-dances, so that effect is out). I definitely felt more relaxed when I did dancesport series compared to earlier silver scholarship.

congrats ttd - maybe the dancesport series is telling you something you need to hear - really the message from the gurus here Next time you do silver why not abandon routines there too?

Its one of those wonderful anomalies. When we learn dance we worry about how well we will do the steps so when we compete we (generalzation) tend to do the same. However, when we watch dance we look for people who look comfortable and relaxed, who are in command of their dancing. This is NOT the ones who do fancy steps. If that is so, why do dance teachers focus so much more on us learning and executing steps than on looking relaxed and in command? As I see it, that is one of the key things the body-school mentors here are trying to get us to realize.

I had an interesting experience with this at Twin Cities Open yesterday. As I mentioned somewhere else, I dance silver standard but I also do standard dancesport series events, which are open, so the understanding between me and my teacher is that he can lead anything he thinks I can follow and he is usually creative with it, and we have not set up any kind of routine that I am aware of for the dancesport series. I did not do that great in my closed silver standard events, I felt tense, I have not placed well in the scholarship (worse than I expected). But then I had about a 30 minute break and did my dancesport series event. I was expecting to be last in it. There were 3 other ladies in it, who presumably had open routines. I only won it once before against one other person - an am guy, which is expectedly easier. Anyway, we just went out there with no expectations of beating anyone, and to our surprise, we were first in it, and it was a solid win from the look of the marks. I am still wondering how that happened (the judging panel was the same for all multi-dances, so that effect is out). I definitely felt more relaxed when I did dancesport series compared to earlier silver scholarship.

I have found when a lady has developed the skill of responding to a man's indications the couple does do better when not dancing a pre-set routine. I think the reason being that you are more in harmony with one another as the man has to be very accurate and the lady has to wait and then respond. There is a free, relaxed and calm look to it, which is pleasing to the eye. If it was the same panel of judges, then it is very likely you did just that. Well done. Hopefully you are able to maybe get some input from one of the judges to find out why they placed you better. Whatever you did, it might be a good idea to keep it or do the same for the next competition.

congrats ttd - maybe the dancesport series is telling you something you need to hear - really the message from the gurus here Next time you do silver why not abandon routines there too?

Its one of those wonderful anomalies. When we learn dance we worry about how well we will do the steps so when we compete we (generalzation) tend to do the same. However, when we watch dance we look for people who look comfortable and relaxed, who are in command of their dancing. This is NOT the ones who do fancy steps. If that is so, why do dance teachers focus so much more on us learning and executing steps than on looking relaxed and in command? As I see it, that is one of the key things the body-school mentors here are trying to get us to realize.

Yes, I agree with Elise here. I am glad to hear that the seed are beginning to sprout.

Keep us informed on what you do for the next competition ttd. We would love to hear how you do!!!

I was thinking more about this. The silver stuff that we do - it's a routine of sorts, I guess, since we're limited by the silver syllabus on what we can use, and so things tend to happen more or less in order (like if there are 3 possible choices you can do after a certain step and only one of them is a convenient way to turn the corner, you get what I mean, I hope), so it's easy to fall into expecting what's going to be next. Also, when I do silver events, I think my mental state tends to be different, I feel more competitive there. I'll try to elaborate later, but have to go now.

I was thinking more about this. The silver stuff that we do - it's a routine of sorts, I guess, since we're limited by the silver syllabus on what we can use, and so things tend to happen more or less in order (like if there are 3 possible choices you can do after a certain step and only one of them is a convenient way to turn the corner, you get what I mean, I hope), so it's easy to fall into expecting what's going to be next. Also, when I do silver events, I think my mental state tends to be different, I feel more competitive there. I'll try to elaborate later, but have to go now.

You are doing the right thing. You are contemplating what you are doing different and what you feel different. That, I have found, is the best way to improve. You are developing awareness. Keep up the good work.

OK, I guess what I wanted to say was that I realized that I was trying too hard in the events where I did not do that great, and when I was not trying too hard because I felt that no matter if I try hard or not, it won't make a difference, I did a lot better. I think that sort of thing happened to me several years ago, too. I was doing bronze back then and my teacher entered me into a silver scholarship, because of conflict (the comp did not have A and B scholarships, so another, older student did bronze, and I did silver, so that both of us had a chance to do a scholarship). I don't remember how I felt about it back then, but in all probability I didn't expect to place well against silver level ladies. And again, I won that event, and was really surprised about it, too. I probably follow better when I relax and do not try too hard.