A long and wicked life
followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally
long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking
the name of the Lord in vain—then have a heart attack at that moment and
be damned for eternity. Is that the system?"
- Robert Heinlein

The concept of vicarious redemption -- the idea that someone else can magically take away your responsibility for any and all misdeeds you have committed -- is inherently wicked. It offers forgiveness where it has no right to, and damnation where it cannot possibly judge.

And don't forget Original Sin, which is an evil and wicked doctrine on two counts: first in that it lumps together both sexuality and curiosity as two of mankind's greatest evils when these things are in fact core parts of what make us human, of what make life worth living for. And second in the wicked and unjustifiable notion of the inheritability of sin, the idea that the misdeeds of your ancestors somehow carry on through to you. You would not end the life of a child for the crimes of her father, even if her father were Jeffrey Dahmer, would you? Jesus would. He'll send you to hell to be tormented eternally, even if you live a perfectly good life, because of the "sin" of (the fictional) Adam and Eve. Unless you "accept" his "sacrifice", a veiled threat, forcing you to subscribe to the word of a 1600 year old book of primitive desert fairy tales essentially at gunpoint.

You are not worthy. Look at all I've sacrificed for you. Why won't you accept my sacrifice? Accept what I've done for you, and worship me and never go against my will... Or you will be tortured and beaten and burned and gouged and tormented and bathed in fire and brimstone and pain for ever and ever and ever... But I love you. I don't want to torture you. But I'll have no choice, if you don't worship me.

Is that the message of someone who truly has your best interests are heart?

No.

The Christian bible is morally indefensible on almost every level. The philosophy it promotes, in both the old and new testaments, is abhorrent and disgusting. Christianity tells you you're sick, then sells you the cure. It is a con job, an evil and morally reprehensible attempt to corral the human soul and milk it.

A long and wicked life
followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally
long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking
the name of the Lord in vain—then have a heart attack at that moment and
be damned for eternity. Is that the system?"
- Robert Heinlein

The concept of vicarious redemption -- the idea that someone else can magically take away your responsibility for any and all misdeeds you have committed -- is inherently wicked. It offers forgiveness where it has no right to, and damnation where it cannot possibly judge.

And don't forget Original Sin, which is an evil and wicked doctrine on two counts: first in that it lumps together both sexuality and curiosity as two of mankind's greatest evils when these things are in fact core parts of what make us human, of what make life worth living for. And second in the wicked and unjustifiable notion of the inheritability of sin, the idea that the misdeeds of your ancestors somehow carry on through to you. You would not end the life of a child for the crimes of her father, even if her father were Jeffrey Dahmer, would you? Jesus would. He'll send you to hell to be tormented eternally, even if you live a perfectly good life, because of the "sin" of (the fictional) Adam and Eve. Unless you "accept" his "sacrifice", a veiled threat, forcing you to subscribe to the word of a 1600 year old book of primitive desert fairy tales essentially at gunpoint.

You are not worthy. Look at all I've sacrificed for you. Why won't you accept my sacrifice? Accept what I've done for you, and worship me and never go against my will... Or you will be tortured and beaten and burned and gouged and tormented and bathed in fire and brimstone and pain for ever and ever and ever... But I love you. I don't want to torture you. But I'll have no choice, if you don't worship me.

Is that the message of someone who truly has your best interests are heart?

No.

The Christian bible is morally indefensible on almost every level. The philosophy it promotes, in both the old and new testaments, is abhorrent and disgusting. Christianity tells you you're sick, then sells you the cure. It is a con job, an evil and morally reprehensible attempt to corral the human soul and milk it.

The bible is Wrong.

I don't know that that could be any more terse or deadly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

Once you accept evolution and some basic geology it's clear that the Genesis account of creation and the flood are false. If you then continue on to look for evidence of which parts of the Bible actually are true you find it's a house of cards. Very little of the Bible stands up on its own merits, and Christian apologists seem to all pretty much fall into the category of professional liars, not to be trusted in any matter. With inaction on climate change being driven but religious fundamentalists who distrust science because they got evolution wrong and obviously hate god so cannot be trusted - it seems important to choose a side rather than sit on the fence.
Some quick resources:
* http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAC3481305829426D
* http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL71922DE34C9673BD
* http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLM...qCL9c9Tr5r

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.

(25-12-2012 11:46 PM)TheToughTruth Wrote: Hey everyone! :-)
I'm Hannah, a 16 year old girl in the heart of the Bible belt.
So basically, I've been a Christian since I was 6, grown up in a largely Christain family, have gone to the same church for 10 years, and gone to Christian summer camp for 4 years, etc. In the past few weeks, I took it upon myself to scrutinize my faith, and have come to the conclusion that I'm now an Agnostic Atheist. Obviously, if I confirm this, my road ahead will not be easy.
So I need advice.
1. Former Christians, what made you sure that the Bible is untrue?
2. How did you deal with your new life as an atheist/agnostic???
Thanks I really need this.

1: I'll just give you an example of my assertions to biblical myths. Take for example Noah and the ark. Titanic far exceeds the ark in size but could only carry 2000 passengers and even less lifeboats that only equal out to the equivalence of half that, if you were lucky. How does a smaller ship carry billions of animals and maintain room for a few humans? You can not credit god into the equation as there is no involvement whatsoever. It's great that the exact measurements are promoted to the antagonist without the simple use of a ruler. How more interesting that Noah could live 900 years but his remains remain unaccounted for, unlike the dinosaurs who have been dead for millions of years. You don't have to say it's wrong, but you can still say it doesn't add up.

2: "New life" makes the atheist personality sound benign to the modern age of understanding, which is what pertains to most to us, understanding and reason. We take everything in with the knowledge obtained from learning and deal with life's obstacles with reason instead of intolerant prejudice, take action through physical research instead of lazy praying and thanks to it, cancers are becoming more treatable whereas the prayer still awaits results other than certain death. We want our children medicated when they are sick instead of suffering till they die at the expense of some deity's unjustifiable ego, and detain the metaphor of unequal opportunity through the practice of alliance and kind gesture to those opposite of us and only treat them based on their advertised behavior. There is no new life, there is only continuation of life that does not enslave another by the power of fear and authority.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

I've been an in the closet atheist for longer than you have been alive and at 47 I finally started telling ppl about a year ago. I'm lucky that so far my family and friends only like to "pray for my soul" and tell me that "god still loves me". But I can deal with that.

I knew that men are fallible, so the bible was fallible. Then when I found out about Nicaea, that's when I rejected the bible. The truth can never be voted into existence, and that's exactly what happened there. It was simply a popularity contest between texts. Comparable to taking the top ten new york best sellers and gluing the covers together declaring it one holy book.

I just got tired of the idea that every time I have a problem I have to use Jesus and I have to go to scripture. I was brain washed to believe it will make me feel better if I go to scripture to solve my problems but in reality it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack for me. I'm much rather just use my common sense than have to hunt through scripture to find solution to my problems.
If I want answers to my problems I would rather read spirituality books like "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. The Power of Now really helped me understand the importance of focusing on what is happening now, or what I can do now rather than what will happen later. The book emphasized the importance of staying in the now and doing what you can now at the present moment. After reading this book I have more patience and think much more positively about life.
I believe all issues can solve if you allow time to let it happen. You don't need God to help you get through each difficulty. If praying helps you feel more at peace in your life I respect that, but for me it just causes frustration trying to find a "Christ" like way to solve a problem.

" If you're brave enough to say goodbye, life will reward you with a new hello" Paulo Coelho
"If you pray for rain it eventually does fall. If you pray for floodwaters to abate, they eventually do. The same happens in the absence of prayers" Steve Allen

1. Former Christians, what made you sure that the Bible
is untrue?-While actually going through and thinking about it for
once, I realized that I had been raised to worship a skytroll.-

Genesis in the Old King James has the birds created “once”
from water and/or then dirt.

God promised Abraham some land, but the guy never gets to
own that land for himself. God preferred that people build up civilizations and
be slaughtered into extinction, so the Hebrews could build another city on top
of the old one and fulfill God’s promise to Abraham.

Joshua gets purchased by slave masters and goes into Egypt
where he later gets framed and jailed for attempted rape. Despite this he almost instantly rises
the ranks till he’s next to the King himself for telling three people dream
interpretations. God comes in and makes a famine to starve everyone, so Joseph
and his brothers could move into Egypt and later become slaves as God said.