PMC wrote:i hope i didnt miss the post but could somebody explain to me why he has such a high tw?

i must've missed too, but IMO 88 isn't unreasonable for Gattuso. he's always, ALWAYS at hand for a pass, supports the attack and obviously never shies away from his defensive responsibilities. He works well with Pirlo, keeping the helps keep the shape of the milan midfield and the defensive cover for the back-4 in check (consider both Seedorf and Pirlo are former attack-minded midfielders). What number would you suggest?

PMC wrote:i hope i didnt miss the post but could somebody explain to me why he has such a high tw?

i must've missed too, but IMO 88 isn't unreasonable for Gattuso. he's always, ALWAYS at hand for a pass, supports the attack and obviously never shies away from his defensive responsibilities. He works well with Pirlo, keeping the helps keep the shape of the milan midfield and the defensive cover for the back-4 in check (consider both Seedorf and Pirlo are former attack-minded midfielders). What number would you suggest?

when I lokk on the other player and his teamworkskills I would give him a 92

Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself

are these stats based by his performance in the confederation cup??? we must wait till next season to see his level, because he didnt was fully fit or prepared for playing the confederation cup (he was injured 5 MONTHS, what you expectate from him??!!!)...so I think we cannot make the stats based on that performance....

PMC wrote:i hope i didnt miss the post but could somebody explain to me why he has such a high tw?

i must've missed too, but IMO 88 isn't unreasonable for Gattuso. he's always, ALWAYS at hand for a pass, supports the attack and obviously never shies away from his defensive responsibilities. He works well with Pirlo, keeping the helps keep the shape of the milan midfield and the defensive cover for the back-4 in check (consider both Seedorf and Pirlo are former attack-minded midfielders). What number would you suggest?

I was just wondering... I didn't mean to post a suggestion as I just wanted it explained

are these stats based by his performance in the confederation cup??? we must wait till next season to see his level, because he didnt was fully fit or prepared for playing the confederation cup (he was injured 5 MONTHS, what you expectate from him??!!!)...so I think we cannot make the stats based on that performance....

agree with metromono. imo, defence can be lowered below cambiasso and mascherano but attack and response can wait.

metronomo wrote:are these stats based by his performance in the confederation cup??? we must wait till next season to see his level, because he didnt was fully fit or prepared for playing the confederation cup (he was injured 5 MONTHS, what you expectate from him??!!!)...so I think we cannot make the stats based on that performance....

I've these stats since the start of season,ever since his response was reduced courtsey of the "response revolution". If I was basing his stats on confeds cup I would be looking ot reduce mentality and stamina to low 90s

i disagree with lowering his DEF so much, if you put him that low he will be way too close to SB's, and its pretty clear that any DMF is ALOT better in a CB position and defensively playing than the best SB's, the same goes for ambrosini..

this was proven by barca and Yaya Toure, and i really dont see why gattuso one of the greatest defensive players in his DMF position should be so low in DEF and so close to SB's, he should definitely be closer to a CB and not to a SB when it comes to DEF values..

the current value of 82 is a bit too much, but i would not go lower than 80

HitMan wrote:i disagree with lowering his DEF so much, if you put him that low he will be way too close to SB's, and its pretty clear that any DMF is ALOT better in a CB position and defensively playing than the best SB's, the same goes for ambrosini..

this was proven by barca and Yaya Toure, and i really dont see why gattuso one of the greatest defensive players in his DMF position should be so low in DEF and so close to SB's, he should definitely be closer to a CB and not to a SB when it comes to DEF values..

interesting point. but you forget many SBs play also play as CBs (Ramos, Favalli, Heinze, Panucci, Raggi, Chivu, Accardi, Maldini). What did Yaya Toure prove other than he could out muscle the Man U defence? he's got a bit of the speed and size, but his positioning is so-so. A better example would've been Cambiasso, and he adapted brilliantly and at shor notice, but even he had troubles with the top teams, yet he sits at 79.

funny you should mention cambiasso, i just went to his thread and was surprised when i saw 79, i think he should be with gattuso on 80 or perhaps even more due to his time spent playing in CB position and not being too bad at it, but i think Chivu might be a bit overrated, just looked at him DEF 87 i think is a bit too high for a utility player capable of playing CB, SB, DMF or even CMF for NT sometimes i think...

as for SBs as CBs those you mentioned deserve a higher rating in DEF than say Dani Alves or Maicon, which were my primary targets when i said the best SB's, i wasnt referring to best SB's in terms of defensive positioning i was talking about the overall best SB's and thats in most people's opinion at the moment Dani and Maicon(neither capable of playing CB as far as we know ) and 5-7 point gap in DEF value between them and Gattuso or Cambiasso or Ambrosini is a bit too low in my opinion..

HitMan wrote:funny you should mention cambiasso, i just went to his thread and was surprised when i saw 79, i think he should be with gattuso on 80 or perhaps even more due to his time spent playing in CB position and not being too bad at it, but i think Chivu might be a bit overrated, just looked at him DEF 87 i think is a bit too high for a utility player capable of playing CB, SB, DMF or even CMF for NT sometimes i think...

as for SBs as CBs those you mentioned deserve a higher rating in DEF than say Dani Alves or Maicon, which were my primary targets when i said the best SB's, i wasnt referring to best SB's in terms of defensive positioning i was talking about the overall best SB's and thats in most people's opinion at the moment Dani and Maicon(neither capable of playing CB as far as we know ) and 5-7 point gap in DEF value between them and Gattuso or Cambiasso or Ambrosini is a bit too low in my opinion..

i knew you were going to use that kind of reasoning, to just increase Cambiasso's defence stat. I happen to agree he is perfectly rated, also he's more reliant on his response and awareness more so than positioning. Once Alves is updated (and his defence lowered to 70 as it should) both Gattuso and Ambro will still be miles better, Maicon is at 67, so I don't see what your arguement is. And don't forget they have defensive *'s and higher response. Its not even a fare comparison, they're different types of SBs, just as they are different types of central midfielders. Dani Alves and Maicon are attacking SBs, closer to SMFs, so no wonder they wouldn't be able to play as CBs. The best SB (by your defintion) is probably Ashley Cole but he doesn't have the height and weight to play in such a position, but he would most likely do better than Gattuso in a 3-man defence. Agreed about Chivu, I need to work on him. You also forget most DMFs on average have better response compared with CBs (and SBs), which a is BIG advantage.

well the last i knew alves and maicon were going to be 70-72 in DEF both, which brings about the 5-7 GAP in DEF between them and gattuso ambro cambiaso, i also think yaya toure's DEF value is a bit underrated as well 75,

and i use this reasoning because its my opinion, not just to push my suggestions by saying up everyone else

and the RES difference you mention is at best 4-5 points which isnt THAT HUGE, compared to the 5-7 points in DEF..

i stand by my opinion of gattuso 80 and cambiasso 80 or slightly more, and chivu down, and ambrosini fine or 1 less, and toure up by 1-2 since he has *covering and isnt as good as gattuso and cambiasso or chivu for that matter

HitMan wrote:well the last i knew alves and maicon were going to be 70-72 in DEF both

. Alves @ 70, but not Maicon, unless he vastly improves defensively. You're right, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but unless you can convince most on the forum that Cambiasso and Toure deserve higher defence (which I disagree with anyway), then you have to agree that Ambro and Gattuso deserve to be lowered so it fits in the ladders. Either we change Ambro or Gattuso or we update every other DMF on the forum.

HitMan wrote:and the RES difference you mention is at best 4-5 points which isnt THAT HUGE, compared to the 5-7 points in DEF...

they're different stats so we shdn't compare them, but the 4-5 point difference is significant nonetheless. Couple it with the points differences in mentality, defence, TW and the defensive *'s, DMFs are still much better than SBs defensively and in terms of positioning. You need to consider all these, not just one stat

I disagree with lowering Gattuso's Defence to the level you've stated but I do agree with a decrease. A 77 is harsh on Gattuso, his defensive positioning and the accuracy of his tackles are better than the likes of Jean II Makoun. Moreover, consider the effects that it'll have on his Attack-Defence ratio. I could see Gattuso going to an 80 in Defence but why not also raise the Defence values of Cambiasso, Yaya Toure, Mascherano etc. Although I know that Rfuna has a thing about Attack and Defence values with midfielders.

GoonerLover66 wrote:I disagree with lowering Gattuso's Defence to the level you've stated but I do agree with a decrease. A 77 is harsh on Gattuso, his defensive positioning and the accuracy of his tackles are better than the likes of Jean II Makoun. Moreover, consider the effects that it'll have on his Attack-Defence ratio. I could see Gattuso going to an 80 in Defence but why not also raise the Defence values of Cambiasso, Yaya Toure, Mascherano etc. Although I know that Rfuna has a thing about Attack and Defence values with midfielders.

I do agree, however, with the Response decrease.

how is it harsh when he'd still be better than top DMFs like De Rossi and Toulalan? He'd still be better than Makoun (1pt in defence and 5pts in response). In fact, Gattuso with defence @ 77 would still be better than most mid-level team CBs. Gattuso's game is based around fierce tackling and hard pressing and tracking, not positioning, intercepting or covering the back 4 like De Rossi or Cambiasso (his nickname is Ringhio - the snarler/growler - that pretty much sums his style of play). His tackling isn't all that impressive either, his tackles are mistimed and he tends to foul a fair bit. I'm not sure I understand the effect lowering his D willl have on his attack-defence ratio. Do you mean he will have an increased inclination to go forward?

Personally, I'd increase both Toulalan and De Rossi in their Defence values. And in a recent update I made on Makoun in my Evo-Web thread, I gave him a 77 in Defence and an 85 in Response.

And all you've done is made decreasing Gattuso's Response even more lucrative. Intercepting loose passes and the timing of a players challenge are also Response-related issues. As you've said, and as I already know, the vast majority of the fouls he incurs and the bookings he recieves are for mistimed lunges, but the actual accuracy of his tackles (which is affected by Defence) is very good and above the standard of a lot of DMF's. As I've said before, I agree to your Response suggestion and I'd lower his Defence to an 80 (possibly a 79 now that I'm thinking about it) whilst also agreeing to increases in the Defence of other DMF's.

As for the A-D Ratio, I wouldn't worry about it. I realised that, as soon as I originally posted, that he's still going to have Defence > Attack so the inclination to go forward is only going to minimally increase.