If someone is spoken of as being guilty of the above-titled offense, what does it really mean? Here are some definitions of the expression “talking out of both sides of your mouth”:

• Lying.

• Being two-faced.

• Speaking dishonestly.

• Speaking with a forked tongue.

• Saying one thing, but meaning something else.

Not too long ago on the JWS forum under a thread entitled “DFd even though repentent – how do they do that?” Sister IJA and Brother Londo had this exchange:

——————————————–

IJA: I used to believe (and tell others who would ask) that only those who weren’t repentent for sinful actions were DFd. Since then, I’ve heard a ton of experiences, and seen a few first hand, where that was not the case.I know these are personal and painful stories, but if you went through this yourself and are willing to share…how on earth did the elders justify it? Do they just say to you, “Nope, sorry, we don’t believe you”? Do they say they aren’t sure so they have to go ahead and DF you? Did anyone have this happen when it was only one incident? (Not that I think that matters, obviously you can still be truly repentent even if it was several incidents, I’m just trying to piece together their reasoning.)The goal is supposed to be to restore the person. It’s just so wrong that someone can be repentent (which is supposedly the goal) and then still be DFd. It’s much more often used as a “punishment” rather than to restore. I’m just curious how they actually justify it, or if they even try.Also, has anyone EVER been reassured that Jehovah knows their heart even if man can’t see it?

Thank you if you are willing to share your experience….

Londo: As Steven Hassan said, in high control groups, words get redefined. Therefore, repentance, mercy, happiness, joy, love, forgiveness, attitude, humility, pride, and so forth end up meaning something quite different in the organization than they do in the common vernacular.I think JJ’s video, ‘Elders: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly’ does give a fair perspective on the matter. And in Brother Franz’s second book, the chapters on Shepherding and Disfellowshipping dissect the problems, both with the belief and the practice. Elders for the most part have their hands tied…they are there to implement the Flock book and whatever marginal notes and instructions that have come from the CO and DO. If they do not do so, they risk losing their position. Thus, the good elders are either deleted or step down–or they go against their conscience and find some feat of mental gymnastics to justify it to themselves so they can go to sleep at night. As Randy Watters has pointed out, there is a trinity of voices. One voice to the public, one voice to the flock, one voice to the elders–and yet they come from one [WT] Society.One voice says to the public, ‘We only disfellowship unrepentant ones and it is the last resort. It is up to the individual whether they shun them or not.’ One voice says to the flock, ‘It’s not the action that disfellowships a person, it’s their attitude. Shun your disfellowshipped friend and family or else!’

One voice says to the elders, ‘an individual may have gone so far into sin that be may not be able to demonstrate sufficient repentance to the judicial committee at the time of the hearing. If so, he must be disfellowshipped, allowing time to pass for him to prove his repentance.’ Also, ‘the degree of repentance ought to be commensurate with the degree of deviation.’ They define repentance, like they define salvation–by works…therefore, they often disfellowship a person because to get them to prove their repentance with enough ‘works’ of their choosing, which amounts to meeting attendance for six months to a year. So they try to punish a person to wrangle out of them the suffering to what they feel is equal to their sin. And even then, with some committees, it’s never good enough.

——————————————–

First of all I’d like to thank IJA for asking the question, and then Londo for being so perceptive in his response. It illustrates nicely the double-speak and prevarication that goes on at the Kingdom Hall and in the WT literature. Indeed, this “trinity of voices” carries over into the very thought processes of some Witnesses. As with many other large corporations and businesses, internal memos often sing a different song than the publicly approved jingles and ad copy used to sell the companies products.

Big tobacco has been caught red-handed on more than one occasion; they even made a movie about it called The Insider with Russell Crowe. The Watchtower Corporations have also been caught red handed more than once- can the movie about their misdeeds be far behind? The recent case involving Ms. Candace Conti is a good example. The courts have ruled in her favor, levying some $28 million dollars in damages against her attacker and his accomplice, the Watchtower Organization.

The blood issue is another example of this happening: Even though the official teaching and policy of Jehovah’s Witnesses state that they do not take transfusions of blood, in practice many Witnesses do and are never sanctioned for it. There are a number of proofs of this strange contradiction, as testified to by only these two points:

Literally entire bags of WTS approved fractionated blood are transfused regularly by Witnesses. Is this alone not a contradiction of the literal interpretation to “abstain from blood”? Do JWs really abstain from blood? Or is there another hidden subtext at work, allowing one kind of blood but not another?

The Watchtower Society has agreed, in a legally binding document, to allow Jehovah’s Witnesses in Bulgaria a free choice regarding blood transfusions with no sanctions for any that take blood.

The Bulgarian situation especially highlights how the WTO will say one thing applies to them, but in practice an entirely different outcome is the reality. In the meantime, policies from the self-appointed leadership in upstate New York continue to flow. New terms are coined or old ones are adopted and the former jargon is discarded. (See article entitled Jargon and “Theocratic Language”) Terms such as calling the leadership our “mother”, and other unique word meanings continue to erode faith in the Lord Jesus as our only Savior. Notice these verses from the New World Translation that illustrate the pure and simple gospel that comes from God’s Word as opposed to the trinity of voices from the upstate New York Watchtower Corporations:

1 Corinthians 3:11: For no man can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

John 5:22-23: For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

1 John 5:1: Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one that caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one.

1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.

Acts 4:12: Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven…by which we must get saved.

What a contrast! What an easy message to accept and digest- that Jesus is our savior, it is HE that we go to and no man need stand between him and us. No man needs to be consulted for forgiveness of sins. No council or magesterium can craft our faith, our creed, or our certain hope. As for how many other sides of the “Watchtower mouth” we will be hearing from in the future that is anyone’s guess. The question is, how long will the rank and file brothers and sisters continue to listen to and obey the WT’s “other gospel”? (Galatians 1:7, GNB) How long will their trinity of voices hold weight with each of us as individual Christians?

13 Comments on Talking Out of Both Sides of The Mouth

In 2012 God’s will and scripture has little to do with the Jehovah’s Witnesses position on use of blood products.
The JW leadership is foremost concerned what will play out in a secular court of law as to the parent Watchtower being held liable for wrongful deaths.
Most Jehovah’s Witnesses rushed to the ER with massive blood loss will cry NO BLOOD right up to their last breath,The shocker is they can now have most of the blood components that will pull them through,but they are so indoctrinated that blood is forbidden that they can’t comprehend the loopholes.
The Watchtower has drilled and grilled us that our stand on blood is NON NEGOTIABLE.
The loopholes that allow blood usage is to save the Watchtower corporation money from blood death liability suits.
This is a truly evil organization that would sacrifice tens of thousands of men,women,children for the almighty dollar.
The blood products ban has been in force since 1945 the buzz today about it being a *personal conscience matter* and the hope of new medical advances like artificial blood don’t undo all those who have past perished.
The New York city based Watchtower sect is concerned foremost with liability lawsuits for wrongful death.They know that if they repeal the ban on *whole* blood transfusion,that it will open the door for legal examination of all the thousands who have died since 1945.
Cults do get people killed!
50-100 times as many men,women,children have been killed by the Watchtower society ban on *whole* blood transfusions than at Jonestown kool-aid mass murders.
*tell the truth don’t be afraid*
—
Danny Haszard

Then there is Scriptural proof besides , that the so-called ” blood issue ” concerning 1st century Christians , was not this sort of issue , over the sanctity of life . It was only a decision that some would need to consider , if they would possibly stumble another Christian by taking animal blood (in it’s meat) into the body . THIS was the issue . The Apostle Paul’s discussion shows this , on the subject : The consciences of others and our own , [ 1 Co 8 – 10 ] .

I see the same hypocrisy in that supposed ” Christian CHURCH ” which does things on the sly , out of view from the parishoners . They probably understand this issue that I mention in Jerusalem , which relates to Paul’s words I cited . But , they would crumble in a legal world as this if they admit their misunderstandings . Oh well . . . I guess we’ll see . . .

What I am talking about here , is that the “blood issue” that was decided upon was on the basis of what Paul had to say and the others too . We don’t have the “minutes” to review for their meeting. But Paul takes up the blood issue in another way when he wrote to the Corinthians .

This is how the Apostle Paul gets back to this subject , after he met with the older men in Jerusalem . It would be good to read through Paul’s discussion to the Corinthians , as I cited above . It is ” 1Cor 8 – 10 . ”

(1Co 8:1-10:10 , BBE [Bible in Basic English] ) : ” Now about things offered to images: we all seem to ourselves to have knowledge. Knowledge gives pride, but love gives true strength. If anyone seems to himself to have knowledge, so far he has not the right sort of knowledge about anything; But if anyone has love for God, God has knowledge of him. So, then, as to the question of taking food offered to images, we are certain that an image is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. For though there are those who have the name of gods, in heaven or on earth, as there are a number of gods and a number of lords, There is for us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we have our being through him. Still, all men have not that knowledge: but some, being used till now to the image, are conscious that they are taking food which has been offered to the image; and because they are not strong in the faith, their minds are troubled. But God’s approval of us is not based on the food we take: if we do not take it we are no worse for it; and if we take it we are no better. But take care that this power of yours does not give cause for trouble to the feeble. For if a man sees you, who have knowledge, taking food as a guest in the house of an image, will it not give him, if he is feeble, the idea that he may take food offered to images? And so, through your knowledge, you are the cause of destruction to your brother, for whom Christ underwent death. And in this way, doing evil to the brothers, and causing trouble to those whose faith is feeble, you are sinning against Christ. For this reason, if food is a cause of trouble to my brother, I will give up taking meat for ever, so that I may not be a cause of trouble to my brother. Am I not free? am I not an Apostle? have I not seen Jesus our Lord? are you not my work in the Lord? If to others I am not an Apostle, at least I am one to you: for the fact that you are Christians is the sign that I am an Apostle . My answer to those who are judging me is this. Have we no right to take food and drink? Have we no right to take about with us a Christian wife, like the rest of the Apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? Or I only and Barnabas, have we no right to take a rest from work? Who ever goes to war without looking to someone to be responsible for his payment? who puts in vines and does not take the fruit of them? or who takes care of sheep without drinking of their milk? Am I talking as a man? does not the law say the same? For it says in the law of Moses, It is not right to keep the ox from taking the grain when he is crushing it. Is it for the oxen that God is giving orders? Or has he us in mind? Yes, it was said for us; because it is right for the ploughman to do his ploughing in hope, and for him who is crushing the grain to do his work hoping for a part in the fruits of it. If we have been planting the things of the Spirit for you, does it seem a great thing for you to give us a part in your things of this world? If others have a part in this right over you, have we not even more? But we did not make use of our right, so that we might put nothing in the way of the good news of Christ. Do you not see that the servants of the holy things get their living from the Temple, and the servants of the altar have their part in the food which is offered on the altar? Even so did the Lord give orders that the preachers of the good news might get their living from the good news. But I have not made use of any of these things: and I am not writing this in the hope that it may be so for me: for it would be better for me to undergo death, than for any man to make this pride of mine of no effect. For if I am a preacher of the good news, I have no cause for pride in this; because I am forced to do so, for a curse is on me if I do not. But if I do it gladly, I have a reward; and if not, I am under orders to do it. What then is my reward? This, that when I am giving the good news, I may give it without payment, not making use of my rights as a preacher of the good news. For though I was free from all men, I made myself a servant to all, so that more might have salvation. And to the Jews I was as a Jew, so that I might give the good news to them; to those under the law I was the same, not as being myself under the law, but so that I might give the good news to those under the law. To those without the law I was as one without the law, not as being without law to God, but as under law to Christ, so that I might give the good news to those without the law. To the feeble, I was as one who is feeble, so that they might have salvation: I have been all things to all men, so that some at least might have salvation. And I do all things for the cause of the good news, so that I may have a part in it. Do you not see that in a running competition all take part, but only one gets the reward? So let your minds be fixed on the reward. And every man who takes part in the sports has self-control in all things. Now they do it to get a crown which is of this world, but we for an eternal crown. So then I am running, not uncertainly; so I am fighting, not as one who gives blows in the air:
But I give blows to my body, and keep it under control, for fear that, after having given the good news to others, I myself might not have God’s approval. For it is my desire, my brothers, that you may keep in mind how all our fathers were under the cloud, and they all went through the sea; And they all had baptism from Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And they all took the same holy food; And the same holy drink: for they all took of the water from the holy rock which came after them: and the rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not pleased: for they came to their end in the waste land. Now these things were for an example to us, so that our hearts might not go after evil things, as they did. Then do not go after false gods, as some of them did; as it is said in the holy Writings, After resting and feasting, the people got up to take their pleasure. Again, let us not give way to the desires of the flesh, as some of them did, of whom twenty-three thousand came to their end in one day. And let us not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did, and came to their death by snakes. And do not say evil things against the Lord, as some of them did, and destruction overtook them. ”

. . . Read this discussion in your own favorite Bible if you like , and compare this translation . I think you will see that the issue of whether or not a Christian can eat blood , which was in the undrained meat , offered to idols then , was a matter of conscience . And conscience of the other person ; so that , in effect he was saying :

” If we are strong in conscience , so that we can conscientiously/legally partake of blood , which rule from The Law has now been made completed in Christ , than let us not stumble another if we eat this meat . Let us not bring them along with us to eat this meat , which would have been forbidden if we were still under the Law of the Jews ( Their concience is weak , since they don’t yet understand ). If we encourage them to eat of this meat , they may feel that they have sinned against God ! In this way , we could stumble them . ”

So we learn more than this one lesson from what Paul said here . Not only is it not beneficial to cause a week-conscienced brother or sister to sin against their own conscience , but that a Christian has the ability now , after Christ came to the Earth , to enjoy things of this world that were forbidden under the Law Code , without condemning himself over it .

This is a very , very , important understanding to achieve , as we are liberated from false religious thinking !!!

Read these verses . Understand them . Jehovah’s Witnesses do not study over these things well . Understand what is said here , and you will understand better what Christian Liberation is .

That translation puts it very well,thank you.
As a topic, the issue of stumbling our brother is one that could be covered in great detail.
Particularly as we all stumble others unintentionally at some point, and if we are made aware of it, or come to realize, then we naturally would apologize and ask our brother for forgiveness.
The thing that gets to me most about the WTS is their sheer arrogance before Jesus.
They neither acknowledge or ask forgiveness for stumbling others.
The UN NGO debacle is a classic example. I can follow their reasoning to a point with regard to treating the UN the same as any government. And I can accept that whoever who made this decision did not think it through properly.
The point is that they stumbled so many brothers consciences and made a mockery of what they have published with regard to the UN.
No apology, no repentance.
Yet another example of the WTS using the inverse law to apply rules to the congregation, effectively saying –
“you shouldn’t have been stumbled” “its a test of your faith” ” we have done nothing wrong” “your conscience is weak”
Its just so TIRESOME
Come Lord Jesus,come and put an end to this work of men.

Wouldn’t it be so good if the WTS would appologise over several things ? I don’t see this coming , but imagine the integrity that could be restored , over their credibility !

Here are a few appologies that they ought to make toward their own people , and for the world to see as well .

Some WATCHTOWER Misunderstandings :

1. The not so old thought that when they went from door to door that they were separating the Wheat from the Weeds . I don’t recall if there was an appology that they made over that misunderstanding that they had , and caused the rank and file to misunderstand . Didn’t they say something like , “We do not claim to be an Inspired organization” , and more illustration about how Christians “tack in the wind” ; (i.e. , always forward moving , but sometimes a cross-wind causes lateral sailing) . Do you remember this excuse ?

2. No appology over not having understood correctly that the “Generation” prophesy applied to specifically the 1st century end of a system ; and over the false signals they gave over how long such generation is .

3. Their phariseeical treatment of their converts over their own devised “blood issue” . The prohabition against taking blood was part of the “Hand written laws” which were nailed to the stake .

Until they make appology for so many things , and others which I haven’t mentioned , they do not appear to be the true Congregation of God .

God’s Spirit is making gain better in other Christian communities , in some fundamental ways that involve better teachings ; closer to Christ .

It is particularly refreshing to not be a part of any of the organized Christian sects and cults , and to associate at site like this .

Out of curiosity I looked on the beliefs section of the official JW website. Here is what it said under the question.
“Do they believe that they are the only ones who will be saved”?

No. Millions that have lived in centuries past and who were not Jehovah’s Witnesses will come back in a resurrection and have an opportunity for life. Many now living may yet take a stand for truth and righteousness before the “great tribulation,” and they will gain salvation. Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus’ hands, not ours.—Matthew 7:1-5; 24:21; 25:31.

This answer is a carefully crafted dodge around the real answer, which is YES THEY DO.

I am glad you are writing more. I can imagine it is tough after what you have been through. I know it can become wearisome even thinking about WT dogma so you can show others why it is incorrect. Just remember how much your writing helps others. Being lead to this site helped me keep my sanity. So keep up the good work, there are many new ones coming here who need help.

Brother Dan, great thoughts as usual, I will be reading those scriptures again.

Chris, good comments as well. It is so TIRESOME as you put it. The same unyielding attitude is present among most Elders. They speak of the friends being mindful that the Elders are not perfect, so don’t be critical when we make mistakes. Yet when mistakes are made they are never admitted too. If you even respectfully mention them watch out! I am currently a person of interest because of suggesting that the Elders consider adjusting some procedures. I even suggested that they may want to consider apologizing to some of the friends because of the discouragement caused by certain policies. Shame on me! I believe they want to consider me as causing divisions. The reality is I just brought an issue to the forefront that has been going on for some time. They may need a scapegoat since any problem in the Congregation could never be due to their mistakes. Why do they have this mentality? Because their leaders, the Governing Body, have the same mentality, there are no mistakes made. There are only wrong views on the part of the friends and wrong expectations. Of course there are occasional ” adjustments ” from time to time.

Unfortunately there is a publicized answer they give on many issues , and there is the reality of what they really think . I am sure their legal department has some influence over what shows up in print on potential problem issues .

We could gone forever on this subject and I don’t mean to harp on, but has anyone ever noticed in the questions from readers in the Awake, whenever someone points out a discrepancy or mistake in an article, they always seemed to wangle their editorial reply to make it appear that they have not been inaccurate but their information/data was either accurate at the time or subjective, and their take on things is actually correct even when blatantly wrong.
Maybe I am over-sensitive but I have always found the tone of their replies to be supercilious.
I will stop moaning about it……but you know what I mean?

Yep . I used to keep , in my “theocratic library” , years of “Answers to Questions from Readers” articles . Many of their answers had made it clear to me why they don’t consider these short articles during a Sunday meeting , at a more public meeting . Newly interested people showing up to read this stuff would have an objective viewpoint , and would disagree with the JW-Speak answers .

it boils down to one basic fact. The organization is NOT directed by God, never has been. They interpret the Bible falsely, are critical and harsh. That is not the gospel of Christ. They put chains on the “file and rank” and stick them in a prison. It feels so good to be away from them, its been two years for me now and I’m just now feeling so much freedom. Christ said, “the truth will set you free”, indeed it has. I don’t have to pick anything apart anymore. Hope all of you are doing well, just posting my thoughts. Good comments, enjoyed reading them.
Confused

We realize here , or are coming to realize , that the WTO is not exclusively directed by God . If God has chosen to direct the WTO , then that direction has been for them to preach the word of the kingdom , for some 130 years now . But if God chose some of his other organized earthly Christians to preach other aspects of the Gospel , then there are many other organized and disorganized Christians who are fulfilling prophesy over the Church’s foretold activities now too .

Many Christian Churches now preach that we ALL have Yeshua – Christ Jesus as our mediator . This is a wonderful thing to realize , isn’t it ?!

There are also new understandings of Bible prophesy coming from additional Christians from around the world .

Not only do the “alive at the great tribulation Christians” , and “Dead in Christ” , from the Watchtower’s version of the 144,000 , inherit the Kingdom ! Some are still confused over whether or not the 144,000 is a symbolic number or whether it is symbolic .

You said , bro annonymous , ” Christ said, “the truth will set you free”, and indeed it has .

No Organizations of Men will separate those chosen from the Christ . And no human organization on earth is the elect 144,000 . This is a symbolic number .

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