By the time the "BountyGate" scandal investigation is over, the only thing former New Orleans Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams might not have been blamed for is whatever gas prices happen to be at that time. And now that the bounty system he participated in while with the Saints can be traced back to his time as the Washington Redskins' defensive coordinator, facts that previously came to light are now going under the magnifying glass with a much harsher light cast on them.

Last September, Cindy Boren of the Washington Post wrote an article in which ex-Indianapolis Colts head coach Tony Dungy put the start of Peyton Manning's longstanding neck injuries and surgeries at a game between the Colts and the Redskins on October 22, 2006. On one play, Manning was given a "high-low" hit by defensive linemen Andre Carter and Phillip Daniels. Those types of hits, in which two defensive players aim for different halves of an offensive player's body, are among the most dangerous in football.

The guy wouldn't let go of my head," Manning said after the game of Daniels, who was fined $5,000 by the NFL for the hit. "I looked at my helmet to see if my head was in it."

Yea, it’s a contact sport, but it’s not the hunger games. What Gregg did is despicable. I already know too many old football players who take 4 hours to get out of bed every morning. Over the last several years I’ve become more and more of an uneasy fan as I see the long term damage that it’s causing. I hope the people involved in this betting scandal all get lifetime bans from the NFL.

Yea, it’s a contact sport, but it’s not the hunger games. What Gregg did is despicable. I already know too many old football players who take 4 hours to get out of bed every morning. Over the last several years I’ve become more and more of an uneasy fan as I see the long term damage that it’s causing. I hope the people involved in this betting scandal all get lifetime bans from the NFL.

I remember the game Dungy spoke of. Don’t know why I remember it, but I do, and yes, Peyton was hit savagely in that game. If the charges against Williams are true, then he and the players who participated should be permanently banned from the game. There is a difference between playing the game and looking to intentionally cause another player physical harm.

I agree. Williams should be banned from the game, and the Saints and Redskins deserve major penalties. Players proven to have participated in injury bounties should be suspended for a year or banner permanently if warranted. I have no ill will towards the Saints...in fact I like Brees and Coach Payton a lot...they are among my favorites in the league.

8
posted on 03/03/2012 5:36:17 PM PST
by ilgipper
(Everything you get from the government was taken from someone else)

I heard a quote from Kurt Warner today, that these internal team pools about taking out opposing teams' players is pretty common. I'm not surprised. It's a brutal game, and at the top, it's so competitive, it's whatever you can get away with. If you can't handle the cold brutality, you can't handle the business.

I was a fan of the Detroit Pistons during the Bad Boy era. Did they have some dirty players, like Mahorn and Laimbeer and Rodman? Yup. But they couldn't get away with anything that the refs didn't let them get away with.

I remember when Robert Parrish slapped Bill Laimbeer to the floor in front of God and everybody, and the refs didn't call a foul. Things even out.

I think that was the golden era of the NBA. There was no shaking hands and kissy-face after the game. Those teams hated each other, which made for a lot more drama.

Last year, Justin Upton of the AZ Diamondbacks led the league in Hit By Pitch. They weren't just nicking him, they were hitting him in the spine, in the head, in the kidneys. Brutal. Because he was the best hitter on the team, and they were testing him. Umps should have thrown some of those pitchers out. But they didn't. He was being tested.

“I was a fan of the Detroit Pistons during the Bad Boy era. Did they have some dirty players, like Mahorn and Laimbeer and Rodman?”

Me too. I was a fan of the previous NBA non-written rule of “no harm, no foul” when Laimbeer and Mahorn were the poster boys of physical play. Then Pat Riley transferred that to his “in your face defense” approach of the 90’s Knicks. Loved it.

Now you look at the refs wrong, they give you a level 2 technical foul. This is like watching today’s WWE versus the “Attitude” era of Stone Cold and DX. No contest.

I beg to differ. Pro Football is pure BS. I would much rather spend my Friday nights and Saturdays watching high school and Pop Warner where kids still have a passion for the sport. I still watch a few college games but that's getting stupid.

I grew up in the same city where they make "Friday Night Lights". When I graduated from high school I was a 9 year veteran. I remember one game for the district championship where our middle linebacker literally tried to take the quarterbacks head off. (The snaps on the helmet came loose and the helmet went about 20 yards down the field.)

Pro football is gaining fast on the NBA in suckability.

Believe it or not,after seeing about 50 li'l meskin kids fighting over a soccer ball I could become a fan. It was really cool!

Heh. I always remember how much the Sixers fans hated Mahorn....until the Pistons traded him to the Sixers. Then they loved him. That's the way it goes.

Players like Mahorn, Laimbeer, and Rodman were so good at getting into the opposing players' heads. Laimbeer got Larry Bird to go ballistic and get thrown out of a game once. Rodman made these gay-looking "I want you" eyes at an opposing player, and got him to react, got him thrown out of the game. They were nuts.

Laimbeer was a nice guy off the court, heavily involved in charities. But he was such a pr*ck on the court.

I remember once he said, "If you want to see a great player, look at Isaiah. If you want comic relief, look at me."

Believe it or not, he grew up here in L.A., white dude neighborhood of Pacific Palisades. Grew up to hate the Lakers as I watched a KTLA intermission one night years ago and they were interviewing him and Cooper from the 80’s Showtime Lakers.

The late, great coach Chuck Daly once said “Laimbeer never started a fight by physically hitting you. He just says something in the other guy’s ear and they are the ones who go nuts.” But I do miss those Rodman vs Pippen highlights.

Yes, I remember the first time the Pistons faced the Bulls in the championship. One of the Pistons elbowed Pippen in the temple. Probably gave him a concussion, because he was useless the rest of the series.

But he learned. The next time, first tipoff of the game, Pippen elbowed one of the Pistons in the ribs, knocked the wind out of him. The refs said nothing. Message sent. I think the Bulls went on to win that one. The refs remember, too.

I agree. Lifetime bans for the DC, the HC, and the GM. Football is a contact sport; it is not trophy hunting. If I were Peyton and my neck injury could be attributed to this program, I’d be talking to lawyers and would end up owning the Redskins.

I agree. He was dirty. But, he couldn’t get away with that, unless the refs let him. That was brutal era in the NBA. And Laimbeer took more than his share of beatings. He retired early, due to a bad back. He took plenty of his own hits. Countless times, I saw him draw offensive fouls, as in knees to the face, knocked flat on his back. He wasn’t a wimp.

Lets not forget the Colorado Avalanche - Detroit Red Wings Rivalry. That is when Claude Lemieux put Kris Draper’s face into the metal stantion holding the glass. This rivalry was so hated at one time there was two major fights which included both goaltenders from each team. One was Dominic Hasek and the other was Mike Vernon against Patrick Roy.

The next time Lemieux saw the Red Wings in Detroit, Darren McCarty kicked the living crap out of Lemieux. Lemieux went into a turtle shell so he could not his face bloody, lose some teeth and who knows what other injuries he was going to obtain. That fight was right off the opening faceoff.

I also remember that game of which you speak - when Parrish took our Laimbeer. It was, of course, in retaliation for Laimbeer practically decapitating Larry Bird in the preceeding playoff game. What goes around, comes around.

True. I agree. But in sports, where do you draw the line? In sports, those on the receiving end can play it to their advantage as well. For instance, a linebacker can drive in for a perfectly clean hit. But, a quarterback can then duck his head, and take a shoulder pad to the helmet, at a crucial time in the game. If said quarterback is skilled at his deception, he can draw a 15 yard penalty with ease, the difference between winning and losing. In basketball, it is very common for a skilled defensive player to draw fouls. He only needs to be willing to take the hit. It works both ways.

I was able to download Game 7 of the last back to back Laker win during the Riley era. Rodman was so erratic, but gosh, he was full of energy and he took so many crazy shots in the last quarter that he was not supposed to take.

The face of Chuck Daly in the last 2 minutes when Rodman still shot the ball even when Dumars was wide open was priceless.

One thing I loved about Chuck Daly, was the look on his face. He didn't care if the Pistons were 30 points ahead, he looked like the world was coming to an end. Push, push, push. That's how he got such a wildly-different cast of characters to win, but unfortunately, that's probably why he died so young. Type A to the max. But, Rodman said Daly was like a father to him. He didn't really turn into a nut case until he left the Pistons.

Teams had such an individual personality back then, heroes and villains. Now, not so much.

i've read articles from different sources on both the current saints' bounty system and the hit on manning and found some interesting dots. i don't know whether it's appropriate to connect them or not.

(1) i'm curious about the anonymous saints player who told yahoo sports that williams said

"If you cut the snake's head off, the body will die. It was made clear that he was talking about not just running backs who turned their heads the opposite way and how they would go down, but also about other stars on offense that were the best players on that team."

the snake/head expression is common when used in other ways, such as taking out the key man. but that doesn't make complete sense in the context of the rest of the comment. what's the part about turned heads and how they would go down? is it about hitting them when their heads are turned? even that doesn't make perfect sense in the context. is it about going for the head? i hate to think that's the case - especially if you note the point below, that the bounty program may have included extra payments for sending somebody to the hospital.

(2) i just noticed that after the game in which peyton manning took this hit (well, this grab and pull), manning said The guy wouldnt let go of my head. I looked at my helmet to see if my head was in it. phillip daniels - the guy who 'wouldn't let go' of manning's head, was fined $5k for the hit. what is fascinating is the daniels' choice of words when he was approached by the media for a quote on the bounty program in other, non-manning, stories. daniels is currently the redskins' director of player development. daniels said:

"I think it is wrong the way they're trying to paint [Williams]. He never told us to go out there and break a guy's neck or break a guy's leg. It was all in the context of a good, hard football."

unless somebody mentioned manning to williams as part of the question, it was odd that daniels chose to say "break a guy's neck" when he was asked about williams' bounty program, given what daniels did to manning while playing under williams.

(3) some sources are saying that the bonuses went up to as much as $8,000 for certain hits. the median nfl salary is $777,000 dollars; or $38,850/game, counting pre-season; the average is $1.9 million, or about $95,000 per game); . $8K (or even $1,000 or $1,500) doesn't sound as small in proportion to salary as some people are making out - at least not for the average player.

(4) we've heard there were bonuses for knocking people out of games or sending them off on carts. some sources are saying there was also a bonus level for sending somebody to the hospital. i haven't seen the bounty pool structure (and it may have changed from time to time).

(4) the bounty pool wasn't just an internal saints thing. michael ornstein, the marketing agent (convicted of fraud) who had ties to reggie bush and saints' coach sean payton, contributed $10,000 to a bounty fund for opposing quarterbacks in 2009, at contributed additional money at least twice more. and he wrote an email about the bounty fund to payton.

(5) football is a brutal game and i've heard stories since my youth of players trying to knock opposing players out of of game. anything, however, you hear people screaming 'everybody does it' you have to consider that 'it' often remains illegal (within the rules of the game or at law) even if everybody does it, and that there are proportionalities involved. it's one thing to try to hit a guy so hard he flinches the next time he goes across the middle. it's a different level when you try and knock him out or to send him out on a cart. if another tier was trying to send him to the hospital, then that's another level. it's another thing to pay people to do it, and to be caught doing and and to continue doing it when you were told to stop.

and if - if - you were paying to send people to the hospital as well as knocking them out of the game and if - if - you specifically talked about going for the head . . . then i view the peyton manning hit in an interesting new light.

just thoughts.

41
posted on 03/04/2012 6:59:18 AM PST
by Scoutmaster
(You knew the job was dangerous when you took it)

But I dont think Jack would go out of his way to cause an injury that would end someone career and by therefore his paycheck.
This Whole thing with the Saints stinks. It is another instance of the “Thug Culture” in the Nation Felon League.

42
posted on 03/04/2012 7:18:22 AM PST
by Yorlik803
(better to die on your feet than live on your knees.)

I was at the real McCarty’s first home game for the Grand Rapids Griffins, AHL team of the Detroit Red Wings, on his comeback when he scored a hat trick. One in each period. During that first media timeout in the first period they were showing the video of McCarty beating up Lemieux. The Lake Erie team, AHL team of Colorado, had their goalie and 4 of the 5 skaters watching the video.

Sure.. just like drawing a foul in basketball. If you decide you want to take a hit and you get hurt.. I understand what you are saying. In football that’s never the issue. It’s very hard to draw a facemask or draw a blow to head... sure maybe the latter is possible.. but unlikely. I think you might be a basketball or baseball fan who doesn’t watch football. If that wasn’t the case you wouldn’t be saying such things.

I watch plenty of football. Did you see the Denver vs. Pittburgh game, in which Harrison took out Eric Decker's knee? He was obviously trying to hurt him, and he did. Took him out of the game, and it was a perfectly legal hit. No penalty, no fine. That's the way it goes. It's a brutal game.

I've seen it plenty of times in football, that a receiver is guilty of his own hanky-panky, pushing off, yet draws an interference call. Happens all the time. It depends upon what the refs see, or don't see. Or overlook.

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