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Spiritual Friendship

Got this via facebook. I don't know the source, but I found it very touching.

On Spiritual Friendship
by Zoketsu Norman Fischer

Some of the people you know now, who you are practicing with now, are going to be, and are already becoming, your close spiritual friends. These people are the most precious thing in the world to you. These relationships in spiritual practice are unique. They are not the same as other relationships. There is a quality to them that touches the absolute. It touches something beyond our personalities. This is not the case with ordinary human interaction and relationships. In spiritual practice we know that we are doing that together. We know that we are touching one another at that level. People who have that interaction and that relationship with one another move each other so much that your life is never the same.

So that is already there in your lives now. Maybe it takes forty years to realize, “Oh, we have done that together. We’ve had that precious time together.” You don’t realize it until it is over. But it is there now in you, so think of that. Think of who those people are for you and remember how precious they are.

I always tell people that you think you are going to the meditation hall for yourself. No. You are going there because of the other people there meditating. That is why you need to go. Don’t go for yourself. That only goes so far. If you are going for yourself, you won’t last very long, because there are too many other things that you want to do for yourself that will be more compelling. But if you are going there because you know that these other people sitting in the hall with you are the treasures of your life, then you are going there in a way that will really transform your life and will transform your heart forever and ever.

Got this via facebook. I don't know the source, but I found it very touching.

Geez, I seem to be Nindo's contrarian lately, but I disagree with this post.

I'm hardly an example in my daily sitting practice, but with many other practices in my life, I have found myself to be stronger in these practices because I do them alone. If your practice can't survive without the support of other people, you are not curious enough. You're not fed up enough with your dissatisfaction and you're not curious enough about its causes. This isn't necessarily a problem though, as eventually, I think we all end up very disappointed in dukkha. Maybe this just isn't the lifetime that you're tired enough of dissatisfaction.

If zazen is a grinding, repressing practice of 'self-control', it will require considerable support and willpower....but that should also be an indication that something is wrong with your practice - not because your ego doesn't like it, but because the OTHER part of your ego that you think isn't your ego is at war with the part of yourself that hates it. Lately, I've been sitting more lightly by ignoring both voices.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Sakyans. Now there is a Sakyan town named Sakkara. There Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."[1]

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.

"And how does a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, develop & pursue the noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. This is how a monk who has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, develops & pursues the noble eightfold path.

"And through this line of reasoning one may know how admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life: It is in dependence on me as an admirable friend that beings subject to birth have gained release from birth, that beings subject to aging have gained release from aging, that beings subject to death have gained release from death, that beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair have gained release from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. It is through this line of reasoning that one may know how admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life."

Are all spiritual communities and friends equal? Did Siddhartha NOT leave quite a few spiritual friends - friends that denounced him at the time?

He went off alone. There was no sangha with him under the bodhi tree, if I recall correctly. Repeatedly Siddhartha left the comfort of friends and community. Had he not done that, would we know of him today?

Going it alone is a lot more difficult. That's why it took 1000's of years for someone like siddartha to come along and take 6 years to finally figure it out lol.

Bows to all sanghas.

That sums up how I feel. I can't even fix breakfast by myself. I depend on those that prepared my flakes, processed the sugar, milked the cows and shipped it all to the store. Just as in real life we sometimes need some help and or a friend, it is also true in our practice.

Going it alone is a lot more difficult. That's why it took 1000's of years for someone like siddartha to come along and take 6 years to finally figure it out lol.

Bows to all sanghas.

But he didn't go it alone for most of that. He was in community after community and did not find liberation. Is it in the nature of groups to reinforce grasping? Why do so few people wake up? You would think sanghas would be overflowing with people who, although still displaying personalities, are less densely trapped by them. Instead, sometimes you see people more densely trapped in more pleasant personas...better than before, but no less hopelessly bound in an identity.

Or you see sex scandals, power trips, back-biting, and all sorts of stuff pretending to be spiritual and sacred when it's just new clothes on old delusions. How is that especially helpful? People may call you on your bullshit, but they lay their bullshit all over you. The higher up the hierarchy, the denser and harder to penetrate are the delusions.

Either way, you're on your own - even if you're in a group. Your spiritual friends may be just pulling you into their trips. In the end, their lights cannot guide you.

But he didn't go it alone for most of that. He was in community after community and did not find liberation. Is it in the nature of groups to reinforce grasping? Why do so few people wake up? You would think sanghas would be overflowing with people who, although still displaying personalities, are less densely trapped by them. Instead, sometimes you see people more densely trapped in more pleasant personas...better than before, but no less hopelessly bound in an identity.

Or you see sex scandals, power trips, back-biting, and all sorts of stuff pretending to be spiritual and sacred when it's just new clothes on old delusions. How is that especially helpful? People may call you on your bullshit, but they lay their bullshit all over you. The higher up the hierarchy, the denser and harder to penetrate are the delusions.

Either way, you're on your own - even if you're in a group. Your spiritual friends may be just pulling you into their trips. In the end, their lights cannot guide you.

Chet

AS an individual I agree that you are on your own and responsible for how and when you practice. And if you need to go off on your own for awhile that's OK. But the others in your group/sangha/community need you and you need them for support, guidance and reflection. We can't always see ourselves, or we see something and interpret it in a totally wrong way. So practicing or just being with others is a mutually beneficial process.

to me personally there is a great conceptual difference between realising awakening in the sense of "just" having Kensho style openings that might or might not change your life forever, and realising awakening as a process of dynamic actions.
Loads of people have had Kensho experiences (even verified ones...whatever that's supposed to mean), but they still stink out of their asses like everyone else.

The Mahayana sutras are repeatedly mentioning awakened Pratyeka guys/girls who went it all alone.....and they don't fail to mention the fact that the path of the Mahayana vehicle is more broad and deep in its realisation and more inclusive than the path of the Pratyekas.
I guess nobody here thinks that merely being/practising around other people necessarily has a great and supportive effect. But it CAN be the whole of the way, whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense.

to me personally there is a great conceptual difference between realising awakening in the sense of "just" having Kensho style openings that might or might not change your life forever, and realising awakening as a process of dynamic actions.
Loads of people have had Kensho experiences (even verified ones...whatever that's supposed to mean), but they still stink out of their asses like everyone else.

The Mahayana sutras are repeatedly mentioning awakened Pratyeka guys/girls who went it all alone.....and they don't fail to mention the fact that the path of the Mahayana vehicle is more broad and deep in its realisation and more inclusive than the path of the Pratyekas.
I guess nobody here thinks that merely being/practising around other people necessarily has a great and supportive effect. But it CAN be the whole of the way, whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense.

Just my two Yen. Peace and gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

I'm not saying that groups are bad - just that they don't seem to add OR detract from the path. In the end, it's on you. Groups can just as easily be a place to hide as can a mountain cave.

And I'm not talking about kensho or a special mental state. Also, who cares if it's Mahayana or not? If your Mahayana group isn't waking you up, who cares? I'm not talking about kensho, I'm just talking about the natural state.

If it doesn't wake you up or wake you up again, throw it out. If you're unwilling to do that, that's the exact measure of what's keeping you from the natural state. It's not about gaining a whole bunch of precious ideas.

as often happens with such discussions, relative and ultimate levels are kinda being pitted against one another. I do agree that people shouldn't care about names and definition like Pratyeka, Hinayana etc. This was just to illustrate some traditional views. However as long as people, especially beginners, cannot but look for a path, it is helpful to know what one is talking about.

Arguably (depending one whom you'd ask) what you call the natural state is just the same thing that continous practise along an authentic path/non-path would manifest over time (or instantly).

I still feel confused about what it really is you call "waking up".

Actually Chet, if you are completely convinced that your preference for "doing it alone" is the real way, then I'd suggest you manifest this insight to a point where you will lead loads of individuals to liberation. Please tell me how that works once you have succeeded...

Since we're throwing relative and ultimate views around like candy on a Halloween night, I have just one last question.

When you say that "In the end, it's on you." please show me that you that exists seperately from all other sentient beings.

YOU can never practise alone, sitting in a mountain cave next to a desert....there is no such thing as a lone practitioner. Just people who can't stand a certain noise level.

as often happens with such discussions, relative and ultimate levels are kinda being pitted against one another. I do agree that people shouldn't care about names and definition like Pratyeka, Hinayana etc. This was just to illustrate some traditional views. However as long as people, especially beginners, cannot but look for a path, it is helpful to know what one is talking about.

These terms should point to something immediately accessible. If you have to explain them, they are exactly not immediately accessible.

Arguably (depending one whom you'd ask) what you call the natural state is just the same thing that continous practise along an authentic path/non-path would manifest over time (or instantly).

In what space do things manifest? THAT is the natural state. How could it manifest?

I still feel confused about what it really is you call "waking up".

Actually Chet, if you are completely convinced that your preference for "doing it alone" is the real way, then I'd suggest you manifest this insight to a point where you will lead loads of individuals to liberation. Please tell me how that works once you have succeeded...

I don't think you heard what I meant to say. A group amplifies a tendency or direction. The point isn't that going alone is best, the point is that simply being part of a group does not necessarily guarantee anything - even a Buddhist one. Buddhism serves many functions, many of which are cultural, some of which build better identities for people. But let's not confuse Buddhism with a path primarily concerned with ego development. Throwing even Buddhism out, let's not confuse spiritual practice with attainment or self-identity practices. You can strengthen ego delusion by yourself, but you can even more powerfully develop it in a group. Being German, I can't imagine how you are not acutely aware of this.

Since we're throwing relative and ultimate views around like candy on a Halloween night, I have just one last question.

When you say that "In the end, it's on you." please show me that you that exists seperately from all other sentient beings.

You know I can't do that; there is no you that exists separately from all other beings. Nor is there a you that exists with all other beings - connected or disconnected. It is by turns a useful or obfuscating concept - this 'I' which must be referenced that ultimately points to nothing.

YOU can never practise alone, sitting in a mountain cave next to a desert....there is no such thing as a lone practitioner. Just people who can't stand a certain noise level.

I have nothing further to discuss here...heaps and heaps of words...

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

The point is not whether you can or can't practice alone or with others. The point is whether you believe either of these concepts points to something accurate. Ultimately, neither does.

And what's wrong with words? Wordless practice can just as easily be deluded and grasping. Words are simply more honestly dishonest. They betray their contradictions with reality quite readily. Silence can also be a hiding place.

Thank you everyone,
I would like to add a tiny bit to the two lights that Chet and Mongen put on different edges of the very same thing. While I feel that being part of treeleaf is an important part of my practice I still feel Chet has a vlid point about practicing alone can (!) be as good. I stumble over the part " ...whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense" of Mongen; if its literally sitting along and being away from the world I agree (lonely cave model), but if you sit alone and engage in the world, then imho this can be very much the Mahayana path._()_
Myoku

Thank you everyone,
I would like to add a tiny bit to the two lights that Chet and Mongen put on different edges of the very same thing. While I feel that being part of treeleaf is an important part of my practice I still feel Chet has a vlid point about practicing alone can (!) be as good. I stumble over the part " ...whilst just sitting alone somewhere never is the whole of the way in the Mahayana sense" of Mongen; if its literally sitting along and being away from the world I agree (lonely cave model), but if you sit alone and engage in the world, then imho this can be very much the Mahayana path._()_
Myoku

It is one thing to say practicing alone is my thing. it is another to say another's sincere expression of appreciation of Community means they don't get it, and to do so from a pose of Enlightenment. That is a plague of internet Zen. spinning "nothing to do" into an Enlightened pose, while manifestly, acting out of a tangled spaghetti ball of self centered thinking. Sorry if this is blunt. Trolling is trolling... BTW trolls usually come in twos.

It is one thing to say practicing alone is my thing. it is another to say another's sincere expression of appreciation of Community means they don't get it, and to do so from a pose of Enlightenment. That is a plague of internet Zen. spinning "nothing to do" into an Enlightened pose, while manifestly, acting out of a tangled spaghetti ball of self centered thinking. Sorry if this is blunt. Trolling is trolling... BTW trolls usually come in twos.

Gassho, kojip.

The trolling comment was obviously not referring to you, Myoku.

Where am I saying that a sincere appreciation of community means that? I'm saying that a sincere expression of appreciation for community is not necessarily right simply because its an expression of appreciation for community.

I'm not taking the stand that any of these things are wrong in and of themselves. But neither are they necessarily beneficial simply by their existing.

It seems some of you think that because I'm suspending the belief that spiritual community is inherently important that I'm picking up the opposing belief.

I'm not doing that either. I was only using those examples of the Buddha's singular path as examples of how the original belief is not necessarily true.

There's the plague of Internet individualistic Zen. There's also the plague of group-think and community influenced delusion. You needn't pick up either of these things. It's okay to be uncertain. It might even be beneficial to be uncertain.

So, in putting down one conviction, I don't want to pick up the opposite conviction. My aim is fewer certainties - fewer convictions.

That's not trolling, that's an honest expression that I don't really know anything and I don't want to pretend that either opinion is entirely accurate.

And I'm not saying you're wrong because I steadfastly refuse to pick up the mantle of being right. I'm just pointing out that this idea could be wrong.

The Three Treasures are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha for a reason...and not Buddha, Dharma, Chet; Buddha, Dharma, Dosho; or Buddha, Dharma, Buddha for that matter.

To spend countless moments trying to make it more complex than that is foolish and unhelpful in my opinion.

Gassho,
Dosho

Who cares? Do we honor them because they are the three treasures of Buddhism or are they truly treasures and hence we honor them regardless of how they are presented?

Put another way, if we were drawn to say, political conservatism - would we honor the principles of conservatism because they reflected reality or because some aspect of them seemed correct at some point, leading us to adopt the label 'conservative ' and no longer examining their veracity?

Would we acknowledge the negative aspects of these principles when they were clearly evident or would we pretend they didn't exist in service of our preselected ideology?

Should we accept things without questioning them? Of course not. But if they ring true to us, I don't think it necessary to dissect them to the furthest degree. I don't swallow whole what I learn. I take the time to digest the teachings. I talk about them with others so as not to get caught up in my own BS. But so early along this path, to be continually analyzing, questioning, and posting about every little bit of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha? That's not following the path.

If you don't like the path that has been laid before you, then go find another one. But if you stay, and I say this with all due respect and sincerity: Sit the (bleep) down and shut the (bleep) up! Sorry for the harsh language, but I am trying to speak loud enough and with sufficient salt so that you might just hear me.

Gassho,
Dosho

Ordained Priest -In-TrainingPlease take what I say with a grain of salt,
especially in matters of the Dharma!

The point isn't that going alone is best, the point is that simply being part of a group does not necessarily guarantee anything...

The point was gratitude, simple as that. Notice it says SOME people at the start, not EVERYBODY out of EVERY group you will ever be in. There may be some key people in your practice who first point you to it, who keep encouraging you, who you end up feeling some responsibility for, and, above all, gratitude.

There are a few Dharma mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters in my life. I don't take them for granted. Sincere practice is an act of gratitude towards them. That's all the initial post was pointing at.

my point was simply that the way of the glorious Mahayana is one of engaged compassion. Which is why self-focussed-escapist practise is absolutely cool, it's just not Mahayana practise Jumping to the ultimate level again we can say that all these names mean nothing at all...but then again there might be a reason why some people feel drawn towards certain kinds of practise and others feel drawn to others. I hope we all find a practise or non-practise that suits us best.

Who cares? Do we honor them because they are the three treasures of Buddhism or are they truly treasures and hence we honor them regardless of how they are presented?

This is something everyone must find out for themselves.

You've raised some valid points in this thread, but I think this is an individual thing.
I am pretty sure one can practice Zen Buddhism on ones own, w/out a Sangha. But not everyone. (In fact probably not the majority.)

Some don't need a Sangha at all.
Some absolutely need it.
Some don't necessarily need a Sangha, but prefer to have one, because they find it helpful and like to be in company.
This is an oversimplification, but I think you know what I want to say.

I do have to agree with the quote. I certainly WOULD have continued my meditation practice if someone had not told me about TreeLeaf. But haven met, sat and spoke to many trealeafers, I have definetely felt that to be true.

Examining is BEST at the beginning of something, but my practice is not so new. I've been a practicing Buddhist for 19 years.

And I AM sitting - nearly daily (sometimes in between 12 hour shifts I just fall asleep before I can sit). But I'm questioning everything, including the idea that daily practice is inherently a good thing and why it's a good thing. I'm doing it, but I'm not doing it because I feel I must.

I'm trying to examine just how much of my identity is involved in holding too tightly to beliefs about this practice.

And to Nindo: I'm very sorry I hijacked the thread - it just brought up some stuff for me.

Treeleaf is a community. A practice community. If it was just another Buddhist forum it would not be worth participating in. A Buddhist forum is where people argue about what they think is true, and play-out endless doubting and dissecting. I came here and want to settle here as my "neighborhood Zendo" after seeing the nature of Buddhist fora, from both the participant and the administration side. They are frequently the last place someone who wants to get on with practice should be .... always having more words... always having another comeback. The heart of this community, in my worthless opinion, is the group practice and its development using new media. That last thing I need another Buddhist forum.

I hear you Chet and understand completely. That said, drop your opinions about what is best. Drop your view of how long you have been buddhist. Drop the questioning including whether what you are doing is good or why it's good. Drop examining how much of your identity is involved in holding too tightly.

Just drop it all. Can you do that for a day? A week? Whatever you can manage...then see how you feel on the other side. I cannot overstate how important I feel this is and would actually recommend it for at least a year. But we all have a our challenges and I only advise this because it's what I did for so long. But until I dropped it I was lost.

Gassho,
Dosho

Originally Posted by disastermouse

Dosho,

Examining is BEST at the beginning of something, but my practice is not so new. I've been a practicing Buddhist for 19 years.

And I AM sitting - nearly daily (sometimes in between 12 hour shifts I just fall asleep before I can sit). But I'm questioning everything, including the idea that daily practice is inherently a good thing and why it's a good thing. I'm doing it, but I'm not doing it because I feel I must.

I'm trying to examine just how much of my identity is involved in holding too tightly to beliefs about this practice.

And to Nindo: I'm very sorry I hijacked the thread - it just brought up some stuff for me.

Chet

Ordained Priest -In-TrainingPlease take what I say with a grain of salt,
especially in matters of the Dharma!

The heart of this community..... is the group practice and its development using new media.

and I tend to agree

Dosho wrote:

But until I dropped it I was lost.

and he's sincere

Nindo wrote:

There are a few Dharma mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters in my life. I don't take them for granted. Sincere practice is an act of gratitude towards them. That's all the initial post was pointing at.

gassho, Shokai

Thank you all for sharing your practice

Last edited by Shokai; 11-26-2012 at 12:52 PM.

仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
Just another itinerant monk going nowhere; try somewhere else to listen to someone who really knows.

... drop your opinions about what is best. Drop your view of how long you have been buddhist. Drop the questioning including whether what you are doing is good or why it's good. Drop examining how much of your identity is involved in holding too tightly.

... But until I dropped it I was lost.

Thank you Dosho ...

Gassho
Michael

RINDO SHINGEN
倫道 真現

As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.