Why I Left Your MUD- A Newbie's Persepctive

Before I start, I want to say that this is meant to be a helpful post to MUD Admin or Imms in general- it's *not* directed at any one MUD or game at all. I'm posting to be constructive, not nasty. I've been trying a lot of MUDs (no MUSHs yet) over the past few years- looking for a place to call home. Some of my comments, I hope, will be helpful.

Why I left your MUD- (In no particular order...)

1. You advertised a Roleplay environment that was enforced, and when I logged in and started a character, I typed 'Who' and saw things like 'Rogan, the Hair-Slayer' and 'Elise-She Just Wants A Shag'. I was looking for an IC game- so I left this one.

2. You advertised a lot more players than you actually had- you said you had 24-50 players, I created a character and found out that there were four people logged in, two of them marked on the Who list as 'AFK'. I logged off.

3. I logged in, took the time to create a character, and no-one greeted me, or told me how to ask for help. Your MUD has quite a few people on the WHO list, but I heard nothing from anyone at all. I logged off.

4. Your MUD was advertised as RP-Enforced. I created a character, and in your beginner's school/newbie school/starting arena I fought a MOB and scored a hit that left my opponent 'Wimpering like Rodney King/Crying like a bitch'. I logged off.

5. I started a character on your game that was RP-Enforced/RP-encouraged and got an item like 'A can of Coke' or a 'Lava lamp' or 'a piece of pizza'. Cookies I can handle but when I saw pizza and Coke I...logged off.

6. I logged in to your RP-encouraged game and immediately I was besieged by channel messages like 'Smirnoff Wipes the FLOOR with Aasinine' or 'BLOODLUST demands Parken's CORPSE'. I had no idea what was going on, nor how to quiet it. I logged off.

7. I created a character on your MUD and, through tells and public channels, came to understand that it was a relatively closed group of friends- I wasn't greeted, and the people that I met in the MUD were standoffish, or referred to 'inside jokes' that I had no understanding of. The players made no effort to welcome me, or even acknowledge my character's presence.

Again, please take this as constructive criticism. I'm not slighting your game. I'm just saying the most common reasons why I left. Obviously, I don't speak for every Newbie. I have tried a lot of games and these are (off the top of my head) the main reasons that I leave. I don't think I'm particularly hard-to-please. I'm looking for a fun game, RP enforced or encouraged, with players that are welcoming to new people. Too often, I find, a game has become known or considered as a few player's 'property', and they are unwilling or unable to share.

I'd also like to add that I haven't tried many games that weren't Fantasy/Medieval based. We all know that there are an awful lot of games out there- I'm just talking about my experiences with some of them.

Keep looking, though. You're bound to find something. You might try: Threshold, Newworlds or Armegeddon. I can't guarantee you'll be welcomed like crazy on the channels, but I think those games might offer you a bit of what you're looking for.

I completely disagree. I think Sasca is just expressing some standard complaints about how Admins advertise their MUDs.

Even though NWA doesn't do any of the things listed here, I feel it important to put the poster's comments in perspective and I'll do this below.

First, it is normal for a game to morph over time and be slightly or even completely different from the original intent based on the players. This is not uncommon and many MUDs (large or small) have conformed to what the bulk of the players want. My main suggestion for looking for a home MUD is to follow this link:

1. You advertised a Roleplay environment that was enforced, and when I logged in and started a character, I typed 'Who' and saw things like 'Rogan, the Hair-Slayer' and 'Elise-She Just Wants A Shag'. I was looking for an IC game- so I left this one.

In many MUDs a who list is completely OOC and has nothing to do with the internal game. Perhaps play for awhile before assuming this. Although, I agree, this drives me nuts too. Admin should make it clear that the who list is OOC.

2. You advertised a lot more players than you actually had- you said you had 24-50 players, I created a character and found out that there were four people logged in, two of them marked on the Who list as 'AFK'. I logged off.

This may be a slow time for the MUD or the TMS list wasn't updated in years. A sad thing but this is the case on numerous games. My take on numbers is this though: numerous players does not equate to quality in a game. In this case though, if you are looking for a lot of players, you may just have to test a bunch of MUDs in your theme and track down the one that actually has the players. This can be tough because some MUDs might have 50+ players, but as a newbie you may need to spend hours just finding them.

3. I logged in, took the time to create a character, and no-one greeted me, or told me how to ask for help. Your MUD has quite a few people on the WHO list, but I heard nothing from anyone at all. I logged off.

Many RP Enforced/Intensive Muds don't do this as they want you immersed and aren't there to hand hold. NWA does, but we have a good sized staff to help and players that like to help. Still, if looking for an fully roleplay MUD you won't always be greeted.

4. Your MUD was advertised as RP-Enforced. I created a character, and in your beginner's school/newbie school/starting arena I fought a MOB and scored a hit that left my opponent 'Wimpering like Rodney King/Crying like a bitch'. I logged off.

Look to my initial response though though this is a bit odd, some MUDs tend to have some strange things like that.

5. I started a character on your game that was RP-Enforced/RP-encouraged and got an item like 'A can of Coke' or a 'Lava lamp' or 'a piece of pizza'. Cookies I can handle but when I saw pizza and Coke I...logged off.

Unless this game was themed in modern times, I have no answer for this.

6. I logged in to your RP-encouraged game and immediately I was besieged by channel messages like 'Smirnoff Wipes the FLOOR with Aasinine' or 'BLOODLUST demands Parken's CORPSE'. I had no idea what was going on, nor how to quiet it. I logged off.

In this case, the Admin should really have such OOC channels tuned out for a new player. This seems to be obviously ooc commentary (I hope).

7. I created a character on your MUD and, through tells and public channels, came to understand that it was a relatively closed group of friends- I wasn't greeted, and the people that I met in the MUD were standoffish, or referred to 'inside jokes' that I had no understanding of. The players made no effort to welcome me, or even acknowledge my character's presence.

I find this a lot in many games as cliques. These exist even in larger games and it is up to players (not Admins) to recognize this and if you want more people in the game you play at to adhere to Sasca's complaint.

---

On all these points I will suggest that you find a MUD that has a theme and style that you seem to like and invest some time into it. It won't be long before you are guiding the MUD into a place you enjoy.

Have fun and thank you for the suggestions Sasca. I did not see them as harsh criticism in the least, but good quality comments.

Oh gods, I can't remember how many times I went through scenario number one. The largest thing that makes me leave a game though is just the general feel towards the start. Usually I'm looking to RP, and if the environment just doesn't feel like it'd be good for it, I get out of there pretty fast. Tailor your MUDs to their purpose, Admin!

Thanks for the post Sasca! Just like a MUD needs the commentary of players to get better, I think the MUD community could benefit in general by commentary such as this. By the by, have you tried Dark Isles yet? It's an RP enforced environment, and the information can be found at dark-isles.net.

Looking over the original post here, it seems the turn-off here is immaturity and lack of realism in the muds that created these less than wonderful impressions. Over the years, and that's a great many years in my case, I've stuck my head in at a lot of games and seldom if ever managed to make it more than five minutes for many of the same reasons.

There are games out there that are mature, realistic (within their themes), and well done. I'm rather sheltered as far as what's out there, but I can assure you that you won't find that sort of immaturity on Maiden Desmodus, however we do not yet have a huge playerbase as we are relatively new. Others I can recommend would be Shadows of Isildur (though I haven't seen what's happened to it in the last year), Harshlands (haven't been there in even longer), and Atonement (currently closed and between alpha beta development stages). Of all of them, I'd love to see you come to MD, of course, and at least give us a try. (Play | Maiden Desmodus)

Most of the games listed on the old RPIMUD Network website would also probably be more to your liking, but I closed that down years ago and honestly don't remember many of the games on the list. You tend to get more of the realism on the RPIs, but a far lower player count as a whole. There are also probably a few games out there, like MD, that present role-play, realism, and maturity, you'll just need to dig around for them or look for recommendations here.

1. You advertised a Roleplay environment that was enforced, and when I logged in and started a character, I typed 'Who' and saw things like 'Rogan, the Hair-Slayer' and 'Elise-She Just Wants A Shag'. I was looking for an IC game- so I left this one.
+You will see a few characters, none of which title that they want to shag or kill hair.

2. You advertised a lot more players than you actually had- you said you had 24-50 players, I created a character and found out that there were four people logged in, two of them marked on the Who list as 'AFK'. I logged off.
+I advertise less than ten, which is the lowest they had to choose.

3. I logged in, took the time to create a character, and no-one greeted me, or told me how to ask for help. Your MUD has quite a few people on the WHO list, but I heard nothing from anyone at all. I logged off.
+I greet everyone who enters the game.

4. Your MUD was advertised as RP-Enforced. I created a character, and in your beginner's school/newbie school/starting arena I fought a MOB and scored a hit that left my opponent 'Wimpering like Rodney King/Crying like a bitch'. I logged off.
+Mine is not enforced, it is encouraged. And my emotes are not that stupid.

5. I started a character on your game that was RP-Enforced/RP-encouraged and got an item like 'A can of Coke' or a 'Lava lamp' or 'a piece of pizza'. Cookies I can handle but when I saw pizza and Coke I...logged off.
+You might find cola or pizza because my game is set in a modern (or post-modern) setting.

6. I logged in to your RP-encouraged game and immediately I was besieged by channel messages like 'Smirnoff Wipes the FLOOR with Aasinine' or 'BLOODLUST demands Parken's CORPSE'. I had no idea what was going on, nor how to quiet it. I logged off.
+We have globals for entry, exit and level. Or auctions. None of that dumb stuff.

7. I created a character on your MUD and, through tells and public channels, came to understand that it was a relatively closed group of friends- I wasn't greeted, and the people that I met in the MUD were standoffish, or referred to 'inside jokes' that I had no understanding of. The players made no effort to welcome me, or even acknowledge my character's presence.
+I greet everyone, and my one builder is friendly as I am. No closed groups.. we don't have enough players for it anyway.

And I can't keep a player to save my life. Had one in just now who came in, played for maybe ten seconds, was greeted nicely and all of it. Then they bashed my MUD, said it was too young, not enough players, was too stock (even though all rooms, mobs, objs and that are original).

I don't think my MUD is that bad. Yet.. "you" in general do not bother to stay. Ugh.

1. You advertised a Roleplay environment that was enforced, and when I logged in and started a character, I typed 'Who' and saw things like 'Rogan, the Hair-Slayer' and 'Elise-She Just Wants A Shag'. I was looking for an IC game- so I left this one.

I'm not a mud Admin, I'm just a player. But, I have noticed that a lot of the RPI/Mandatory Roleplay games really go out of their way to keep the 'Who' as an OOC command (if they even have one). My home game lists people by accounts, not by in-character name. If you were to see 'Rogan, the Hair Slayer', it would be an OOC commentary on their account name and no reflection at all on the quality of roleplay or an in-character name.

I'm not a mud Admin, I'm just a player. But, I have noticed that a lot of the RPI/Mandatory Roleplay games really go out of their way to keep the 'Who' as an OOC command (if they even have one). My home game lists people by accounts, not by in-character name. If you were to see 'Rogan, the Hair Slayer', it would be an OOC commentary on their account name and no reflection at all on the quality of roleplay or an in-character name.

I'm against this technique. We are a gaming community, it is hard enough to know who you are roleplaying with and dealing with other people without having aliases and nicknames. Who cares what the real name of a person is or their account name. Is there really that big of a fear to know who is talking. Besides, since I run a game with many players, don't fool yourself into thinking that everyone of those "account" names haven't informed their friends on IM or other programs of who they are.

The real answer is in simply notifying the community in a help file that the who list is ooc just like a chat channel or ooc channel is ooc.

And I can't keep a player to save my life. Had one in just now who came in, played for maybe ten seconds, was greeted nicely and all of it. Then they bashed my MUD, said it was too young, not enough players, was too stock (even though all rooms, mobs, objs and that are original).

I don't think my MUD is that bad. Yet.. "you" in general do not bother to stay. Ugh.

Clover. You likely have a wonderful game, but so do many others. Most players that come and go are looking for something specific, it has nothing to do with you or your game.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions of games- I appreciate it. As I said, my post was not meant to target any one game- just to point out some of the things that I have experienced and been frustrated by when searching for a new game. I know that there are MUDs/MUSHs out there that are quality and great fun for a lot of people; my comments are clearly (I hope) just notes from my own experiences in trying to find the right game for me. I'll keep searching, of course, as I really enjoy MUDs and have had some great times on places that are now sadly defunct.

One thing that would be very helpful for a player that's looking- aside from people being honest in their descriptions of their MUDs and making sure that said descriptions are relatively up-to-date- would be viable connections to their websites, even if the website just gives a general overview of the game. I don't know how difficult (or costly!) it is to maintain a website, but it's one of the first things I look at if a game sounds remotely interesting.

That list of things would turn me off a mud too. And has I'm sure, I can't recall. Thanks to sites like this I no longer have to blind telnet into a list of muds where all I know is the name. :-) Ahhh 1992... it was a good year for muds.

Of course on of your turn offs was false advertising. No cure for that!

You do seem like a intelligent and mature player, I wish I could recommend you to try GateWay. Sadly it is not a RP mud. The most RP we get is people acting in character for their Guild (Class). Vikings, Serpent Warriors, Rangers, Lost Knights, Shortbreds, Devil Worshippers, Druids and Priests. Oh well.

And I can't keep a player to save my life. Had one in just now who came in, played for maybe ten seconds, was greeted nicely and all of it. Then they bashed my MUD, said it was too young, not enough players, was too stock (even though all rooms, mobs, objs and that are original).

I don't think my MUD is that bad. Yet.. "you" in general do not bother to stay. Ugh.

I'm assuming "you" is "me", as that sounds "vaguely" like the conversation we had when I popped onto your MUD the other night. Although I'd think "Constructive Criticism" was more what I was trying to get across and not "Bashing your MUD" as you put it. And since this thread is "Why I Left Your MUD", and you previously started a thread questioning why players would only stay for a few seconds on your MUD, I figure I should add to Sasca's list, with special attention towards your MUD, and as to why I left.

I should mention that these apply to all MUDs, not just Clover's. Also, as a player, I have no real preference in genre or theme of a MUD. Sometimes it's fun to RP, sometimes it's fun to hack'n'slash. What I do prefer is quality over quantity.

You advertise your MUD as open for play testing, and actively scour the forums trying to recruit players yet you haven't taken the time to change the greetings screen on your MUD. Altering the greeting page requires no coding experience and nothing more then a little creativity in ASCII art work. Having a stock greetings page, which is the first thing a player sees upon entering your game, indicates a lack of pride in your work. (My hopes aren't exactly high now)

Upon entering your the game world the first thing I must do is put on a pair of sunglasses, as to try a dull the excess of color emanating from my screen. (I hope there is someway to turn down the color, but I continue on)

The all original room descriptions consist of barely enough words to make up one sentence. (Hope is all but gone now)

A definite personal preference, but in a game I need to have purpose. There needs to be something I'm aiming to accomplish, whether through questing, rping, leveling ect... This purpose doesn't need to be handed to me, but I should stumble upon in with the first 5 minutes of gameplay. (No clue what I'm supposed to be doing, not encouraging me to stay)

Your MUD is advertised as an RP MUD set in a modern bio-horror setting, yet I am equipped with a "newbie ring" and I stumble across some "newbie shoes", and through the skill system the first skill I see that I can learn is "Speak Elven"... (...No Comment)

Speaking of skills, your MUD has about 10,000 different skills and spells... where would I even start? MUDs and MMO's in general can be overwhelming if skills and features are given to the player gradually.

After wandering around for about 10 minutes, nothing seems to improve... (I'm out)

Honestly, Clover, you have a good idea for a MUD however you need to realize there is a difference between a "New MUD" and "downloading a codebase, paying the $5 to host it, and adding a name underneath the greetings screen." IMO you need to stop wasting time advertising your MUD, and spend that time working on the project. Every new player that sees your advertisement and logs into your MUD to see a stock codebase with some poorly designed rooms, is just going to leave and associate your MUD with "just another stock MUD." By advertising before your MUD is ready, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Look, there are only a certain amount of players to go around, so take a look at a few of the MUDs that have advertised on the Promo board here. Check out the amount of work that has already gone into some these MUDs, like Primordiax, Netrunners and Star Wars: Galactic Insights. Compare it to what you've accomplished so far, and ask yourself if you were a player where would you want to play?

I'm really not trying to slag you, I'm just trying to be honest with you, even if it comes across as harsh. You might want to check out Builders Guide Part 1 | tbaMUD
tbaMUD.com offers a lot of resources that might enhance your world design quality, there are also some quality articles here at topmudsites.com.

Every new player that sees your advertisement and logs into your MUD to see a stock codebase with some poorly designed rooms, is just going to leave and associate your MUD with "just another stock MUD." By advertising before your MUD is ready, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Look, there are only a certain amount of players to go around, so take a look at a few of the MUDs that have advertised on the Promo board here.

I think this is a marvelous point, and one I've toted across many games and experiences. From my time as both a homeless MUDder, a player, and as a working staff member, some MUD administrations appear to "jump the gun." They want to be successful so they start trying to recruit players long before they are ready.

The thing that bothers me the most is that there appears to very little integrity between MUD administrations. Now, this does not apply to ALL administrations -- there are a lot of MUDs out there whose staff works their butts off and they don't cut corners. But the bulk of MUDs try to throw as large a net as they can possibly throw, all in the hopes of snagging new players.

I think the tactic that causes the most problems, and is the most visible, are MUDs that advertise themselves as RP-Enforced or RP-Intensive (note: this is not a signal to begin debate on the definition of terms). I can see why some MUDs do this, as it is a way to attract more individuals of a particular play-style (for example, if you want more RPers on your RP-Encouraged game without alienating your non-RPing pbase, you just tag your game as RP-Enforced). Others do it because they honestly think their style of game is "RP-Enforced", without realizing that from the perspective of new players, it doesn't look that way -- and that is where the fighting and ill feelings begin.

Being so dishonest in game listings is harmful.

1.) It hurts the game listing - because of the sheer number of dishonest and LAZY MUD owners, the search engines we have available to us are so unreliable that there's almost no point to them. The last listing site that even got close to having a reliable database was RPIMud, but that site was made to cater to a very narrow selection of games.

2.) It hurts the community of games that ARE truthful about their stats. To be quite honest, I would love to try out new RP games, but I have no intention of wading through the 200 or so results that pop up under "RP Enforced" when I know only about 30 of them actually have the quality I'm looking for. The rest are just people who like to blur the lines. This goes for ANY searchable term (player numbers, CODEBASE, genre, etc).

3.) And lastly it hurts YOUR game, because you have new players who come in, see a bunch of stuff they don't like, and then they leave. They remember your game -- and they don't come back. Even if, at a later time, you fix your game to be just as advertised.

Now, that all said, the SECOND thing that bothers me is the attitude the community has towards cheating and dishonesty. It seems like it's reached such a point that there's no reason to even argue against it anymore. So what, this MUD is making money off a Diku codebase. So what, that MUD is using Yet Another Stolen IP (Star Wars, Tolkien, any anime, Mass Effect, Dune, Wheel of Time, Pern, you name it, it's been stolen and made into a MUD). So what, that game says it's free-to-play but it's pay-for-perks and/or subscription-based. And lastly, and not least, the game that ballot-stuffs on listing sites like TMS and then pretend like it's a totally legitimate way to recruit new players (you know who you are).

So what, that MUD is using Yet Another Stolen IP (Star Wars, Tolkien, any anime, Mass Effect, Dune, Wheel of Time, Pern, you name it, it's been stolen and made into a MUD).

Given what a MUD is, and what an "IP" is, and the rules around "stealing" them, I have to call you on this one. There's little wrong with going and taking an existing world and making a free-to-play, non-commercial, non-profit environment for the fans of those worlds, unless the owner of the IP explicitly seems to have a problem with it. While I tend to prefer original worlds, being a fan of Wheel of Time and Star Wars I've played multiple MUDs with that theme and enjoyed myself quite a bit amongst a community that shared the same love of the wonderful creations of their owners. And again, there are protected rights into creating what is, in general and in essence, fanfiction.

I'm an Armageddon player, and it (and probably the others mentioned) sounds like a good fit for what you're looking for...a purely in-character game with a decent playerbase. You might also look up Shadows of Isildur.

The one thing I'd suggest differently from Newworlds' guide is that you do consider player base. But ignore the figure reported by the MUD admins; judge the number of players by voting rank. You don't want to play a well-populated MUD that's a bad fit for you, but you do want a well-populated MUD. That's especially true if you're looking for roleplay. (If I were looking for a new MUD, I'd go through the top 20-30 listings.)

Two points on which you may need to temper your expectations:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasca

3. I logged in, took the time to create a character, and no-one greeted me, or told me how to ask for help. Your MUD has quite a few people on the WHO list, but I heard nothing from anyone at all. I logged off.

Unless you're playing one of those top-five-vote-gettin' pay-to-perk MUDs with a really enormous playerbase, you will encounter slow times. A MUD drawing 70 players on weekday evenings may have only a handful online in the wee hours, US-time. Learning where and when PCs congregate (heh, and even recognizing PCs from NPCs, in Arm/SoI) and how to plug into steady interaction is one of the early tricks to enjoying yourself, I find... as is finding out the ways of having fun on your own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasca

7. I created a character on your MUD and, through tells and public channels, came to understand that it was a relatively closed group of friends- I wasn't greeted, and the people that I met in the MUD were standoffish, or referred to 'inside jokes' that I had no understanding of. The players made no effort to welcome me, or even acknowledge my character's presence.

On several of the serious roleplay MUDs, you'll, well...be partially satisfied and partially dissatisfied with this. No public channels and no tells means no big, coherent OOC cliques. But obviously, lacking these out-of-character communication channels, you won't get greeted when you log on, either. :^)

"Free to play" has actually become a code phrase for "pay for perks" and/or "freemium" in the game industry at large. If they actually meant it was free, they'd say "free", not "free to play".

I agree that most of the pay-for-perks mud say "free to play", but I know of at least one that advertises itself as "completely free", and even boasts "no hidden fees" on its website. I just hope more don't follow suit.

I agree that most of the pay-for-perks mud say "free to play", but I know of at least one that advertises itself as "completely free", and even boasts "no hidden fees" on its website. I just hope more don't follow suit.

Wow. Yeah, that's gross. I don't know why MUD people have to be such marketers about everything. Gah.