4. Lastly, NONE of this will work if you don't take time to spend with the children. "Man is a social animal" If you never talk to/play with your children, and they discover that misbehaving will get your attention when other things won't, THEY WILL DO IT.

omg I know. There's a guy we know who just had his daughter a few months after we had our daughter, and I swear he never spends time with her so he complains that she cries all the time and has ADD (at 8 months!?) and the only thing she likes to do is watch TV. My husband has asked him if he ever plays with her, but he kind of sidestepped around that one. It's so frustrating to see these ignored kids...so frustrating.

I don't know about spanking, but my dad used to grab a scruff of our hair and yank it like he was shaking off a pack of rabid squirrels. hurt like hell too. And ever since then, I've decided not be a serial killer.

If your kid can learn to behave by being talked to and having it explained to them why their actions were wrong, more power to you.

If your kid is like I was, however, they're going to know what they did was wrong, not care, and tell you what you want to hear.

So far, the only argument I've heard against mild to moderate spanking is that it teaches the kids that it's okay to spank their kids.

I'm not seeing a problem. If the only "bad" thing to come from an act is that the act is passed on from generation to generation, I see nothing wrong with that.

How many people here were spanked (not beaten or abused) as kids? Now, how many of you are relatively well-adjusted, productive members of society? How many of you hate your parents and resent authority due to being spanked? How many of you have lasting mental damage from being spanked?

If I as a parent am responsible for what my minor child does, then I will beat the shiat out of them if need be to keep them from doing things that harm themselves and MYSELF. If you remove my right to raise a child as I see fit, you better remove my responsibility for their actions.

Without wishing to poor water on a flamewar, the legislation that will actually get passed will say "you can discipline your child, by smacking them with your hand or similar implement, but if you hit them hard or with heavy objects, then its child abuse we will throw your ass in jail."

It's hypocritical, because so many of our politicians are known to pay good money to be put over a woman's knee and spanked.

But seriously, this is just the latest madness from a soft-totalitarian government. Their other cunning plans involve making everyone carry ID cards so the government can spy on their movements, and banning smoking in public places (thereby removing the rights of private business owners and individuals to make these choices for themselves). They are also trially mandatory curfews for kids, and moving forward with EU laws to crush what remains of freedom of speech and opinion, so that people can be jailed for expressing "racist" or "xenophobic" opinions on the internet.

Alternatively, you're teaching them not to fark with you. Are you aware of how much more powerful children are becoming as permissive parenting styles are becoming more popular?

Not spanking does not equal permissive. You made a fallacious induction there. Let me say this in an affirmative manner: discipline can be instilled without spanking. Respect is earned by being a consistent, good role model.

tamarah

It's not inflicting violence...I mean, verbal abuse is just as violent as beating children, but they're not making a law banning that.

There are no laws banning many bad daily practices in all walks of life. The fact that there is a legal opinion (or not) over a a given human action or practice does not make it any less deplorable, or any more virtuous.

To the point: verbal abuse is violent (agreed), and so is spanking. And for every anecdote you produce regarding undisciplined children who were raised without spankings, I can produce one of disciplined children who were raised without spanking (or verbal abuse). Anecdotes prove nothing. My position stems form the conviction that any kind of violence used in disciplining children will most likely teach them that some form of violence is permissible in personalrelationships.

I hate to say it but I think a little bit of fear isn't a bad thing for a kid to have. Notice I say little bit. Same way you might have a little bit of fear of burning yourself at the stove. Just enough to teach a little bit of respect for that situation / object / person.

My parents believed in spanking. More often then not the threat was more then enough. The end result was we behaved and had respect for our elders, and if we stepped out of line we knew well in advance the consequences. As far as those who'll no doubt scream that this is 'abuse' goes, myself and my sister did a hell of a lot more physical damage to ourselves playing or fighting with each other then our parents ever did or would have done to us.

I have 2 sons myself now, and I have no problem giving them a slap on the hand or behind following that 2nd warning. However, much like the above, they'll do far worse to themselves and each other during the course of any given day then I ever would.

Not all 'experts on the subject' are against spanking. John Rosemond isn't, and of all the parenting experts I've read about, he seems to have the most common sense by a long shot (aside from being vehemently anti-choice).

On the bum, open hand, not overly hard, immediately after a reasonably serious infraction is not child abuse, and I think that's what it takes for some kids. That's what I got, and I'm a happy, well-adjusted adult who doesn't hit people when I don't get my way, thank you very much.

I don't hit my kids, and if you have to stoop to violence against your own flesh and blood to teach them a lesson you're a bad parent and a moron.

While you're up there on your soapbox; Where does the parent who stands there, hopelessly wimpering "We're going to have a time-out!" over and over again while their parasite is rolling around on the floor, kicking and screaming in the middle of a toy-store rank up on your hierarchy of worthless parents?

Spanking is violence. Its using fear intimidation and pain (torture no matter how you slice it) to make a kid conform.

If you want to see what EXPERTS have to say go to http://nospank.net/toc.htm

I haven't been hit by a parent since my dad was kicked out when I was 9 and I've been a LOT better off, thank you. Surviving the spanking or saying "it did me no harm" is not the same as saying it actually did any good.

I'm sure your kid will still get by normally if you lock them them up in a cage as punishment but it doesn't mean its necessary or even effective, does it?

This new age parenting is BS. "OK Johnny, you were bad, go sit in the corner and stare at the wall." Yeah, that's punishment. When my brother and I were young, we got spanked a few times...and were threatened by the "belt" Now, the belt was never applied to our flesh, but the *SNAP* it made scared the living shiat out of us and kept us in line. This is why most of the kids these days are a bunch of punks; no discipline.

You said: "Teach them that inflicting violence from a superior position is the way to get their way in the world." It is nice to see you live in a utopian world where everyone is treated as equals. The truth is the world is a rough place. In this world people are looking out for themselves and at the base of our society is a fear of punishment for not conforming to the rules of our civilization

I never said that everyone is treated as equals, nor have I implied it. If you draw that kind of conclusion from my post, it says somethingabout you. Yes, the world is a rough place. Yes, respect and fear of the law is definitely a compound in the glue which holds a society together.

AndulambKids aren't stupid. I was spanked on RARE occasions and I do not go around hitting people as an adult. Kids understand that they are kids and parents are parents and that discipline is a part of the arrangement. Well, they used to. Now, the kids know they are in charge and there is nothing adults can do.

Parent: "You need to take out the trash before you watch TV."

Kid: "No."

Parent: "Take out the trash NOW."

Kid: "Fark you."

Parent: "That's it. Time out. Go to your room."

Kid: "Make me."

Parent: "Um, well... Okay, no TV for a week."

Kid: "I have a TV in my room. And a cell phone. And a computer."

Parent: "Um... Well, let's sit down and let me explain why you should be a good boy."

Kid: "Bite me."

Yes, I can see how that works.

Do you seriously think that a swift swat on the behind is going to work in that situation either? Any kid with responses that highly developed sure as hell isn't going to change because you whack 'im on the ass.

My position stems form the conviction that any kind of violence used in disciplining children will most likely teach them that some form of violence is permissible in personalrelationships.

Two things:

1)On what do you base your conviction?

2)If anything, spanking your kids would teach them that it's ok to spank their own kids, not that it's ok to hit partners.

When I was a kid, I knew that when my mom or dad yelled at me, I deserved it. However, I also knew that when they yelled at each other, something was very wrong. Kids are able to distinguish between different types of relationships. You know, as a kid, that your mom and dad have a much different relationship than you and your mom do.

If you're lucky enough to have a child that can learn to behave strictly through verbal discipline, more power to you. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a kid like that, however.

aadarklaw said:Alternatively, you're teaching them not to fark with you. Are you aware of how much more powerful children are becoming as permissive parenting styles are becoming more popular?

You said:Not spanking does not equal permissive. You made a fallacious induction there. Let me say this in an affirmative manner: discipline can be instilled without spanking. Respect is earned by being a consistent, good role model.

My position stems form the conviction that any kind of violence used in disciplining children will most likely teach them that some form of violence is permissible in personalrelationships.

violence:1. a : exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse (as in effecting illegal entry into a house) b : an instance of violent treatment or procedure2. injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation3. a : intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force b : vehement feeling or expression : FERVOR; also : an instance of such action or feeling c : a clashing or jarring quality : DISCORDANCE4. undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)

Proper spanking does not fall into any of the above categories. When it does then it is abuse.

Bad use of language on my part here, I forgot American Englishuses the phrase "personal relationship" exclusively for partners. What I meant was "any kind of close-circle relationship: siblings, schoolmates, parents/children"

Do you seriously think that a swift swat on the behind is going to work in that situation either? Any kid with responses that highly developed sure as hell isn't going to change because you whack 'im on the ass.

At this point its already too late. Should of spanked the kid a long time ago.

What I meant was "any kind of close-circle relationship: siblings, schoolmates, parents/children"

The same idea still stands. When you were a kid, weren't you able to distinguish the relationship with your friends/siblings from the relationship with your parents?

Did you give the same respect and manners to your friends/siblings that you did to your parents? Of course not.

You were, and are, able to recognize that the relationships were, and are different. Accordingly, you realized that some behaviors from some relationships were inappropriate to carry over to other relationships.

shipud What I meant was that it is better for you to give your kid a spanking when they are young to prevent them from getting their ass beat by some stranger for being an asshat, or put in jail for not conforming to societies rules.

I agree with all your points regarding the difference (and the need to be able to tell the difference) in relationship types within the "close circle" definition. So I reiterate my previous posting: yes, parents should be held in respect by their children, even a little fear (as opposed to intimidation). This can be achieved without the use of spanking, verbal abuse, etc.

I also agree it's farking hard work. Oops! Shouldn't talk like that around the kids.

You were, and are, able to recognize that the relationships were, and are different. Accordingly, you realized that some behaviors from some relationships were inappropriate to carry over to other relationships.

Absolutely. But certain common denominators apply to all types of relationships. Harsh words are more commonplace between parents and children than among parents (or should be). But a certain commn denominaor applies: hitting is wrong, no matter what the relationsip, no matter how many joules your appendage exercises.

Hmm- So using measured violence to supress disobedience of rules has no place in this society, and nobody ever uses force against adults who choose to ignore the orders of an authority figure?

Ok, next time you are pulled over, try telling the cop to lick your asshole. If he/she asks you to step out of the car, scream "F*CK YOU- I ain't budging, piggy". If the officer attempts to grab you, be sure to scream, slap, and bite in a frenzy of childlike resistance.

(Of course, be sure to repeat these same actions toward the judge in the court of law after your inevitably "nonviolent" arrest- the baliff will likely give you a "time out".)