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T O P I C R E V I E W

robsouth

Does anyone know the exact dates for when Shepard was removed from the active astronaut list, for his operation and for when he was placed back on the active astronaut list? I've always found these tricky dates to tie down.

Lou Chinal

I have wondered about this myself. I THINK he was put back on flight status sometime in the summer of 1968. He and everyone else involved were realy hush-hush about it. All the other guys were far along in training. The back-up crew of Apollo 9 ( Conrad,Gordon,Bean) would have rotated to Apollo 12. But the back-up for Apollo 10 was Gordon Cooper. -Lou

nasamad

The op was in May 68 (no date given) and the announcment that he was back on flight status was released on May 7th 1969 (MSC 69-43)

Sorry Rob, thats the best I can do !

Adam

Michael Cassutt

Re Shepard's flight status, this information was offered:

"The op was in May 68 (no date given) and the announcment that he was back on flight status was released on May 7th 1969 (MSC 69-43)."

True -- and you've done more work than at least one of Shepard's biographers in actually looking up the NASA press release.

The Shepard chronology has never been entirely clear. What I have largely comes from notes I made from a piece of Slayton correspondence in 1970, to a U.S. Senator who, no doubt inspired by Cooper and his friends, was questioning Shepard's assignment to an Apollo command.

May 1963 - Shepard grounded for the first time and diagnosed with possible Meniere's Syndrome (presumably right after Cooper's MA-9 flight, for which Shepard was backup pilot)

August 1963 - restored to flight status, but only USN Class III (requiring a Class I second pilot in the same cockpit)

Very interesting. Was this an attempt to correct the Meniere's, or something he needed to have done for other reasons?

Thanks Michael!

robsouth

Shepard didn't include the thyroid surgery as a method of regaining astronaut status in his book and I have never heard of him mentioning it in any interviews. As for the other information, was the 9th May the official public date because I have a date of 7th May for his regaining astronaut status.Also is there anywhere on the net or could someone possibly email me a copy of the NASA release regarding his being put on the active astronaut list.Finally, I would love to see any correspondence regarding Cooper's attempts at getting the Apollo 13 prime crew commander slot, depends on if it was a private letter or not.

Rob

nasamad

Rob, I don't have the direct link available at the moment, but a visit to the JSC History website will steer you towards PDF version of all press releases from about 1961 thru to 2001 where they change to HTML format.

Interestingly there is a mention of Cooper being assigned to shuttle activities and still on the active astronaut list and thus eligible for crew selection as late as October 1969.

Michael Cassutt

"Interestingly there is a mention of Cooper being assigned to shuttle activities and still on the active astronaut list and thus eligible for crew selection as late as October 1969."

Cooper was an active astronaut until leaving NASA in the summer (May?) of 1970.

Re Shepard's 1964 thyroid surgery, it was not related to the Meniere's and was not part of a campaign to regain or alter his flight status. (And it is mentioned in LIGHT THIS CANDLE.)

Michael Cassutt

robsouth

Hi Michael, I've never read "Light This Candle" I was referring to "Moonshot".

Two things puzzle me about Cooper still being active till he left, he says in his book he was offered the Apollo 13 backup slot, seems to me if he was going to stick around till well into 1970 he might as well of taken it. Also, if Slayton had no further plans for him and Cooper himself had turned down Apollo 16, why the active astronaut tag? Why didn't he just go into management like McDivitt?

Michael Cassutt

Rob--

"Two things puzzle me about Cooper still being active till he left, he says in his book he was offered the Apollo 13 backup slot, seems to me if he was going to stick around till well into 1970 he might as well of taken it. Also, if Slayton had no further plans for him and Cooper himself had turned down Apollo 16, why the active astronaut tag? Why didn't he just go into management like McDivitt?"

The 13 backup offer to Cooper is nonsense, like much of LEAP OF FAITH. Slayton had no plans for him after Gemini 5, frankly -- the Gemini 12 backup cdr job was strictly a fill-in, as was Apollo 10. (Gordo had been moved to Apollo projects after Gemini 5 and had to be shifted back to Gemini for the 12 job.)

There was no chance Gordo was going to get a management job within NASA, at least nothing that wasn't essentially ceremonial.

He stuck around to May/June 1970 because that was the end of his last renewable military detail to NASA. He was still fighting the Shepard-took-my-flight battle right up to the Aug 6 69 (if that's the exact date) announcement, and perhaps beyond....

Michael Cassutt

robsouth

Michael, I would like to have access to all the information you do, it would seem that Cooper was labouring under the misconception that he was still eligible for an active role during the moon landings. From what people say, he appears to be the only person at NASA that considered him still to be in the running for a command.Two things from this, the Gemini 12 and Apollo 10 backup jobs seem to be a paradox, he is an active astronaut doing a job that required him to be able to do all that the prime crew can do and yet he is considered unable to step into a prime slot. Also, if there were no further plans for him after Gemini 5 why didn't he understand this and why didn't anyone point it out to him to clear things up?

Michael Cassutt

Rob said:

"..... it would seem that Cooper was labouring under the misconception that he was still eligible for an active role during the moon landings. From what people say, he appears to be the only person at NASA that considered him still to be in the running for a command.

"Two things from this, the Gemini 12 and Apollo 10 backup jobs seem to be a paradox, he is an active astronaut doing a job that required him to be able to do all that the prime crew can do and yet he is considered unable to step into a prime slot. Also, if there were no further plans for him after Gemini 5 why didn't he understand this and why didn't anyone point it out to him to clear things up?"

We tend to compress these events, with forty years of hindsight. Deke had "no plans" for Cooper after GT-5, but needed him for GT-12 -- where he no doubt would have done a find job as commander. I would argue with the statement that he was "considered unable to step into a prime slot".

It is true that Gordo was sort of a warm body backing up Stafford on 10, but had Stafford broken his neck in April 1969, Gordo would have flown.

For Gordo to have had a serious shot at a lunar landing command, he'd have had to make some changes in his devotion to training.

Why wasn't he taken aside for a heart-to-heart? It's my impression that Deke told him on several occasions that he had to kick things into higher gear. I think it's too much to expect Deke to have told Gordo about "no plans" in late 1965, because Deke knew quite well that things could change. As they did.

Michael Cassutt

robsouth

I have heard that someone, possibly Slayton, told Stafford not to let anything happen to him because there was no way that Cooper would be able to command Apollo 10. I also heard that Lousma thought that Cooper would do a less than great job if he had to take Apollo 10 instead of Stafford. In your opinion, do you think Cooper could have commanded Apollo 10?

Michael Cassutt

Rob South said--

"I have heard that someone, possibly Slayton, told Stafford not to let anything happen to him because there was no way that Cooper would be able to command Apollo 10. I also heard that Lousma thought that Cooper would do a less than great job if he had to take Apollo 10 instead of Stafford. In your opinion, do you think Cooper could have commanded Apollo 10?"

Slayton did encourage Stafford to "stay healthy," but you've taken the statement too far -- if Slayton really thought there was "no way" Cooper could command Apollo 10, it would have been fairly irresponsible to leave him in the backup job.

Lousma's comment is more accurate: the feeling was that Cooper would be adequate if he had to do it. But confidence in Stafford was higher across the board.

Michael Cassutt

robsouth

The bit about Cooper not really training that intensely for the back-up on Apollo 10 has never been fully cleared up for me. What is this based on? Who said he didn't train hard enough? IMO if Cooper had been given the role he was eligible for on Apollo 13 then he would have raised his game and made a success of it.

Michael Cassutt

Rob South stated:

"The bit about Cooper not really training that intensely for the back-up on Apollo 10 has never been fully cleared up for me. What is this based on? Who said he didn't train hard enough?"

I don't understand your lack of clarity. You yourself cite a story from Lousma. Slayton and Stafford both said the same to me, and I think those opinions are in print. I can add that I've heard similar statements from at least a couple of other contemporaneous astronauts.

Cooper's problem was also his _reputation_ for doing the minimum, for playing fast and loose with aircraft ops rules, for being AWOL. Slayton told me directly that Conrad had to keep urging Gordo to get in the simulators for GT-5 -- further, that Slayton had to ask for a slip in the schedule (not necessarily the launch date) to compensate for Gordo.

You are free to keep asking -- try training teams, too -- but you might also consider asking yourself why this very minor episode is worth the time. Gordo's gone, and so are Shepard and Slayton. Who else really knew what happened?

"IMO if Cooper had been given the role he was eligible for on Apollo 13 then he would have raised his game and made a success of it."