It's pretty ill-advised to play the man-love/crush, or jock swinger/sniffer card. It could be said for anyone who is on a football message board. I have yet to meet a football fan that doesn't root for specific players (even on other teams.)

Well put but I will still disagree. He might have asked Mack to let him be himself but he also passed against teams that took away the run. Many tried to and he to work from the pocket.

As far as the pros. I was surprised at his development last year and thought he threw well against us and as I pointed out above, against the Giants and a few others. For a rookie I looked at it as a pretty stong platform.

Well, his college career aside,( I have my opinions on that as well) Jacksonville & NE showed the blueprint on how to beat him, which is to take away his ability to run. He will make some plays with his arm, but can he beat u with his arm consistently is another matter in & of itself.

teams are going to start taking their chances with his arm & as of right now, i bet the opposition will come out on top most of the time. He's already got 1 strike against him: He has no WR corps to speak of....... Thanks Bud!

Well, his college career aside,( I have my opinions on that as well) Jacksonville & NE showed the blueprint on how to beat him, which is to take away his ability to run. He will make some plays with his arm, but can he beat u with his arm consistently is another matter in & of itself.

teams are going to start taking their chances with his arm & as of right now, i bet the opposition will come out on top most of the time. He's already got 1 strike against him: He has no WR corps to speak of....... Thanks Bud!

That is what will be interesting about this season. It will be tough on him and I had mentioned that earlier in the thread. They don't have much at all. In fact fantasy owners should line up for Bo Scaife because he will be getting alot of throws.

I'm sure that would go over well in Possum Hollar. PROFESSIONAL football players have allegiances to the teams that they play for, NOT to the cities they were born in.

VY has said on regular occassions he does play for the first professional Houston football team. He is putting himself into a pretzel on this one in my opinion and I don't understand why. From what I have seen, I disagree with you completely. VY is a Houstonian and a proud Texan. I am amazed we are even discussing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

If he's so big on Houston and his 'roots', then why didn't he play for the Cougars?

I don't have an answer for this one except to say playing at Texas is not that much of a strech for a native Houstonian.

I think you are reaching on this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

As far as ancient history (aka 2006 draft): People seem to be forgetting that VY, in spite of his dynamics and potential, is just not a WCO QB. He never would have fit with the Texans under Kubiak's offensive schemes.

Well, if Mack Brown had imployed that philosophy he wouldn't have a National Championship with 2 amazing Rose Bowl victories.

Sometimes, you take the best player that gives you the best chance and build around that. Talk about being stuck in a box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

Young is in the best place for him right now. He's got an OC that wants to tailor an offense to his strengths.

If Kubiak is that myopic, then we are probably in trouble. Thinking in new terms/concepts is more important than trying to prove an old model.

Example, Mario Williams. We picked for a position/situation and not the players involved.

Matt Lineart had a far better season last year (as a QB) than VY. I'm just sorry that he didn't "inspire" his defense to as many scores as the Titans so we could put this to rest already. If you think that VY looked more NFL-ready than Lineart last year, please don't bother responding to this post, for we will likely NEVER agree on even basic points.

I'm not ready to annoint Lineart as having HoF-potential yet because of one good year. I'm also not ready to throw VY "under the bus" for a less-than-stellar year.

A good NFL QB takes time to develop & mature. Most "ride the pine" for at least a year before being thrown into the starting lineup. The more work they need fundamentally, the longer they usually take to adjust.

All the rah-rah in the world eventually wears off at the NFL level. I do believe that teams can take on the persona of a particular player, but, ultimately it's a team sport.

Did Bradshaw inspire the Steel Curtain?
How about Staubach & the Doomsday?
Was the Indy defense BAD because Peyton Manning wasn't a leader until last year?

VY has been a winner at every level, but this is USUALLY the case for starters in the NFL. These guys are the BEST of the BEST in their profession, else they usually go the USFL, XFL, Arena League, etc.

If you're really a fan of VY, give him a few years to see what he CAN do. Telling the rest of us that he's the greatest QB ever (based on last year) makes us want to hurl. Stop watching highlight reel footage and watch the WHOLE game...the guy needs some work, don't break his back trying to live up to this "walk-on-water" persona that he himself helped invent.

__________________D.B. - That sounds like a nugget of reality wrapped in a layer of embellished hyperbole.

Matt Lineart had a far better season last year (as a QB) than VY. I'm just sorry that he didn't "inspire" his defense to as many scores as the Titans so we could put this to rest already. If you think that VY looked more NFL-ready than Lineart last year, please don't bother responding to this post, for we will likely NEVER agree on even basic points.

I'm not ready to annoint Lineart as having HoF-potential yet because of one good year. I'm also not ready to throw VY "under the bus" for a less-than-stellar year.

A good NFL QB takes time to develop & mature. Most "ride the pine" for at least a year before being thrown into the starting lineup. The more work they need fundamentally, the longer they usually take to adjust.

All the rah-rah in the world eventually wears off at the NFL level. I do believe that teams can take on the persona of a particular player, but, ultimately it's a team sport.

Did Bradshaw inspire the Steel Curtain?
How about Staubach & the Doomsday?
Was the Indy defense BAD because Peyton Manning wasn't a leader until last year?

VY has been a winner at every level, but this is USUALLY the case for starters in the NFL. These guys are the BEST of the BEST in their profession, else they usually go the USFL, XFL, Arena League, etc.

If you're really a fan of VY, give him a few years to see what he CAN do. Telling the rest of us that he's the greatest QB ever (based on last year) makes us want to hurl. Stop watching highlight reel footage and watch the WHOLE game...the guy needs some work, don't break his back trying to live up to this "walk-on-water" persona that he himself helped invent.

Well if you actually read my post back to you'd see that I never said he was the greatest QB ever or that my opinion was based on highlights. In fact I was realistic about expectations this year and what has transpired this year. Its alright though because I'm used to hyperbole to make points that were NEVER addressed.

As for the defense. AGAIN, you are doing the same thing you are claiming VY fans are doing. The defense was the worst rated D in the NFL. The point wasn't that he inspired them to be better all the time...they weren't a good unit and had one big game. The point is that a winning attitude, something we are starting to develop finally, rubs off on other player. PacMan and othwers stepped up. And YES, I believe the defenses of old could pin their ears back and play better knowing that the offense was going to put up points and allow them to do their thing. You hear players interviewed all the time say that they knew they could do their job because the other side was getting theirs done.

No one claimed it was "rah-rah." Its called leadership and you are missing the boat completely if you don't think it exists in the NFL and that other players don't gravitate towards others.

But keep going, I'm sure this will turn into someone hating Kubiak and some of us walking around with VY on our cars

BTW, I like Leinart too and I like Cutler but the conversation isn't about them. Leinart also had the same ratio of INTS to TDS as VY but one less of each...11/12 and 12/13. I like his receivers much better too.

That is what will be interesting about this season. It will be tough on him and I had mentioned that earlier in the thread. They don't have much at all. In fact fantasy owners should line up for Bo Scaife because he will be getting alot of throws.

& i think that's where the Vick comparisons come into play. From running the option @ madison to QB read @ UT, He is & always has been a run 1st QB. He's talented enough to evolve into a McNabb type of QB, but he also could go the opposite & stay relatively stagnant like Vick did. The reason being is b/c he's been successful doing it his way for so many years.

It'll be interesting nonetheless to see how it unfolds & to see how fans treat him 3 years in if he hasn't improved enough.

Matt Lineart had a far better season last year (as a QB) than VY. I'm just sorry that he didn't "inspire" his defense to as many scores as the Titans so we could put this to rest already. If you think that VY looked more NFL-ready than Lineart last year, please don't bother responding to this post, for we will likely NEVER agree on even basic points.

I'm not ready to annoint Lineart as having HoF-potential yet because of one good year. I'm also not ready to throw VY "under the bus" for a less-than-stellar year.

A good NFL QB takes time to develop & mature. Most "ride the pine" for at least a year before being thrown into the starting lineup. The more work they need fundamentally, the longer they usually take to adjust.

All the rah-rah in the world eventually wears off at the NFL level. I do believe that teams can take on the persona of a particular player, but, ultimately it's a team sport.

Did Bradshaw inspire the Steel Curtain?
How about Staubach & the Doomsday?
Was the Indy defense BAD because Peyton Manning wasn't a leader until last year?

VY has been a winner at every level, but this is USUALLY the case for starters in the NFL. These guys are the BEST of the BEST in their profession, else they usually go the USFL, XFL, Arena League, etc.

If you're really a fan of VY, give him a few years to see what he CAN do. Telling the rest of us that he's the greatest QB ever (based on last year) makes us want to hurl. Stop watching highlight reel footage and watch the WHOLE game...the guy needs some work, don't break his back trying to live up to this "walk-on-water" persona that he himself helped invent.

All situations are not the same or equal. Therefore, judging on raw numbers can be misleading.

You can make the arguement that Leinart has better players around him, particularly at the RB and WR positions.

Completely agree on it's going to take several more years to see how these guys play out and live up to their potential.

Well, his college career aside,( I have my opinions on that as well) Jacksonville & NE showed the blueprint on how to beat him, which is to take away his ability to run. He will make some plays with his arm, but can he beat u with his arm consistently is another matter in & of itself.teams are going to start taking their chances with his arm & as of right now, i bet the opposition will come out on top most of the time. He's already got 1 strike against him: He has no WR corps to speak of....... Thanks Bud!

agree 100%. he will have to improve his passing skills to take the next step and it will only be harder due to the talent level thanks to Bud.

And YES, I believe the defenses of old could pin their ears back and play better knowing that the offense was going to put up points and allow them to do their thing. You hear players interviewed all the time say that they knew they could do their job because the other side was getting theirs done.

So, how do you explain the Titans success when "VY's offense" WASN'T putting up big numbers? If anything, it appeared that their improved Titans Defense took the pressure OFF of VY, rather than the other way around.

It's very simple really...I think VY is getting FAR too much credit for the Titans wins last year than he deserves to.

__________________D.B. - That sounds like a nugget of reality wrapped in a layer of embellished hyperbole.

So, how do you explain the Titans success when "VY's offense" WASN'T putting up big numbers? If anything, it appeared that their improved Titans Defense took the pressure OFF of VY, rather than the other way around.

It's very simple really...I think VY is getting FAR too much credit for the Titans wins last year than he deserves to.

What you're saying is true to a certain extent, but the guy did make some heads up plays for a rookie QB (giants game & 2nd texans game) that were huge for them & those things do inspire your teammates if even a little. Should he have won OROY & gone to the pro bowl? My opinion is no, but people can also say that Demeco shouldn't have gotten DROY either based on stats & or impact on a team.

What you're saying is true to a certain extent, but the guy did make some heads up plays for a rookie QB (giants game & 2nd texans game) that were huge for them & those things do inspire your teammates if even a little.

The Giants game is the classic example for what dissack is saying. Yes VY made some really good plays, but the comeback was at least equally set up by two Pacman Jones INT's and a long run back. Neither one should be given singular credit.

So, how do you explain the Titans success when "VY's offense" WASN'T putting up big numbers? If anything, it appeared that their improved Titans Defense took the pressure OFF of VY, rather than the other way around.

It's very simple really...I think VY is getting FAR too much credit for the Titans wins last year than he deserves to.

It is apples and oranges. As I said the Titans D was horrible and gave up a ton of points and were ranked 32nd. The NFL is never static where the same scenario happens every week. I explained that he had off weeks too. The D had one very good week that was really a D/Special Teams week surrounding PacMan. Other than that the team scraped by. But I don't think it is a jump to think that the team played better and picked him up just like he picked them up. It just wasn't a weekly thing. The above quote was more about the teams you mentioned..Cowboys, Steelers, etc. I used to see Irvin talking up Dallas's D in the 90s.

My point in joining this thread wasn't to jock VY like he was a savior, it was to throw out an opinion that I don't believe is homer like. He didn't have a perfect season but he still won in a situation that wasn't ideal and the team improved in other areas when he took over...such as the running game. So overall I think VY showed that he wasn't a 3 year project and with the right team can make the difference. All I know is that when he was drafted he was called out as not ready and now that he won games and made plays people are trying to pick him apart even more. I think it is plain silly not to think he will have these people eating crow too.

So, how do you explain the Titans success when "VY's offense" WASN'T putting up big numbers? If anything, it appeared that their improved Titans Defense took the pressure OFF of VY, rather than the other way around.

It's very simple really...I think VY is getting FAR too much credit for the Titans wins last year than he deserves to.

good coaching
good special teams
good performance in 3rd down situations by the VY led offense
defense had some critical returns

one can argue he got too much credit but that is part and parcel of being a QB in the NFL. bottom line is that he competed at a very high level and was one of the hardest guys to stop on 3rd down, arm or no arm. He exceeded early expectations and contributed towards TEAM success and in doing so, turned around their season.

He played like dogcrap in New England in a must-win situation on the final day of the season but they had no business going to the playoffs after starting so poorly. After that NE game he looked like he was crushed to have played so poorly at a crucial time. The game meant something to him and that is something you can't put a price on or set a stopwatch to.

Some call it the IT factor but I gotta go with the Commitment To Excellence cliche. He just doesnt like to lose and is willing to do just about anything to prevent it from happening...and when he fails, it crushes him. That is the type of guy I want leading my team and it looks like we got a guy just like that in Schaub. Schaub is showing the dedication and work ethic it takes to be a true professional. VY is a Titan but I like that Schaub shows some of the same qualities and desire to compete....and is a much more accurate and polished QB that doesnt mind not sleeping in his own bed.

The Giants game is the classic example for what dissack is saying. Yes VY made some really good plays, but the comeback was at least equally set up by two Pacman Jones INT's and a long run back. Neither one should be given singular credit.

John Elway didn't win 12 playoff games and 2 super bowls by himself either...but come on, without him they don't win near that much.....heck the Broncos have only won one playoff game since Elway retired....and were not a good team before he got there. Despite what some of the guys here think, one very elite player pulling the trigger at QB can make a team a dynamic force in the NFL. The Titans were 9-24 the two years and the three games before he started. They were 8-5 and one game from the playoffs since they inserted him as the starter....and pacman Jones was with the team when they were 4-12 the year before.

The Giants game is the classic example for what dissack is saying. Yes VY made some really good plays, but the comeback was at least equally set up by two Pacman Jones INT's and a long run back. Neither one should be given singular credit.

hey i agree with you guys, The media overblew ( is that even a word) it, but it's like 2nd honeymoon said, In most situations, the qb gets most of the praise when his team wins, & most of the blame when they lose.

VY has said on regular occassions he does play for the first professional Houston football team. He is putting himself into a pretzel on this one in my opinion and I don't understand why. From what I have seen, I disagree with you completely. VY is a Houstonian and a proud Texan. I am amazed we are even discussing this.

We are discussing this because YOU brought the subject up like it means something.

So what, he's from Houston. Is that actually supposed to be a basis for drafting the guy? I am amazed that you drop all pretension of football knowledge to be a homer for the guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywood_texan

I don't have an answer for this one except to say playing at Texas is not that much of a strech for a native Houstonian.

I think you are reaching on this one.

Reaching for what? YOU keep stating that being a native Houstonian should mean something to the Texans, like Young has some blood honor to represent the city. If it meant that much to him, then why not stay in the city and represent the college that bears the name? I don't care that he went to Texas, and I don't blame him for doing so. But please don't try to make it out like he's such a hometown hero when he skipped out and went to Austin.

Your logic fails you here, because there is no spoon. I merely used your own argument against you, and as you see, there's not much sense in it to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywood_texan

Well, if Mack Brown had imployed that philosophy he wouldn't have a National Championship with 2 amazing Rose Bowl victories.

Sometimes, you take the best player that gives you the best chance and build around that. Talk about being stuck in a box.

If Kubiak is that myopic, then we are probably in trouble. Thinking in new terms/concepts is more important than trying to prove an old model.

Example, Mario Williams. We picked for a position/situation and not the players involved.

Wha.....? Mack Brown redesigned his offense to take advantage of Young's strengths. Guess what? It was not a pro-style offense that he implemented.

Kubiak runs a version of the WCO, heavy on timing patterns. While there is certainly room for alteration, I don't think scrapping your entire offensive philosophy for one player is very wise.

And let's leave the straw man argument of Mario out of the discussion. Your cheap shot was unwarranted when talking about OFFENSIVE schemes and an offensive player like Young.

You have an agenda, and it is more and more obvious with each post you type. The 2006 draft is water under the bridge. The sooner you accept that reality, the sooner you can stop your myopic takes on this subject.

__________________"Football is only a diversion." ~ Houston Texans, Inc.