Paris, France (CNN) -- The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face -- including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women -- making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

The law passed by a vote of 246 to 1, with about 100 abstentions coming essentially from left-leaning politicians.

The legislation was overwhelmingly approved by the lower house of parliament in July and will go into effect next spring.

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Some 82 percent of people polled approved of a ban, while 17 percent disapproved. That was the widest support the Washington-based think tank found in any of the five countries it surveyed.

Clear majorities also backed burqa bans in Germany, Britain and Spain, while two out of three Americans opposed it, the survey found.

A panel of French lawmakers recommended a ban last year, and lawmakers unanimously passed a non-binding resolution in May calling the full-face veil contrary to the laws of the nation.

"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.

The law imposes a fine of 150 euros ($190) and/or a citizenship course as punishment for wearing a face-covering veil. Forcing a woman to wear a niqab or a burqa will be punishable by a year in prison or a 15,000-euro ($19,000) fine, the government said, calling it "a new form of enslavement that the republic cannot accept on its soil."

The French Council of State has warned that the ban could be incompatible with international human rights laws and the country's own constitution. The council advises on laws, but the government is not required to follow its recommendations.

The ban pertains to the burqa, a full-body covering that includes a mesh over the face, and the niqab, a full-face veil that leaves an opening only for the eyes. The hijab, which covers the hair and neck but not the face, and the chador, which covers the body but not the face, apparently are not banned by the law.

However, a 2004 law in France bans the wearing or displaying of overt religious symbols in schools -- including the wearing of headscarves by schoolgirls.

The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that France has about 3.5 million Muslims, or about 6 percent of the population.

France does not keep its own statistics on religious affiliation of the population, in keeping with its laws requiring the state to be strictly secular.

Hydrae

03-04-2011, 06:49 AM

I get what they are saying but what about a bridal veil or a woman wearing a veil in mourning?

But hey, this should shift at least part of the focus of the extremists away from us.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 07:18 AM

I think we can all agree that making a woman wear such a thing is ridiculous and incompatible with our modern day ideas of human freedom and dignity. And I think we can also agree that those women who do support the wearing of the burqa are misguided or ignorant or something along those lines.

But doesn't this bill in practice actually further restrict the Muslim woman who wears such garb? They won't even be able to go out into public without being fined. They will essentially be forced to house arrest.

alnorth

03-04-2011, 07:24 AM

But doesn't this bill in practice actually further restrict the Muslim woman who wears such garb? They won't even be able to go out into public without being fined. They will essentially be forced to house arrest.

Since their religion doesn't actually require it, the point is probably to force them to stop using the veil.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 07:29 AM

Since their religion doesn't actually require it, the point is probably to force them to stop using the veil.

I don't think a ton of conservative Muslim families feel liberated with this measure. I don't think a lot of women are going to be running out into the streets with smiles on their virgin faces.

I might be reading this wrong, but I think this is more of a "You're not like us, We don't want you around" thing.

BucEyedPea

03-04-2011, 07:54 AM

Sounds pretty fascist to me. I mean who does wearing a Burqa harm? I can see if driving on a public road or a dress code in schools but just to ban it? But for the equality of the sexes? France is a pretty anti-religion country in general.

ROYC75

03-04-2011, 08:10 AM

This should go over well.

BigMeatballDave

03-04-2011, 08:19 AM

Wow. Fascist, indeed. Muslims get a taste of their own medicine.

I thought the French were more progressive.

DJ's left nut

03-04-2011, 08:22 AM

Wow.

When Europe grows a spine and starts to fight back, you know you must really suck.

BucEyedPea

03-04-2011, 08:31 AM

Wow.

When Europe grows a spine and starts to fight back, you know you must really suck.

How is this fighting back? It's more like a communist country that can't tolerate an article of clothing.
Now, honor killings and Sharia law—those things I can see fighting back about.

BucEyedPea

03-04-2011, 08:33 AM

Wow. Fascist, indeed. Muslims get a taste of their own medicine.

I thought the French were more progressive.

Yeah, it is a taste of their own medicine but it's still a petty issue to use.
French people that are religious, not Muslim, will tell you that France is very, very anti-religion in general......so they are being progressive. And good Marxists as well. That "equality" statement showed that side of them.

DJ's left nut

03-04-2011, 08:34 AM

How is this fighting back? It's more like a communist country that can't tolerate an article of clothing.
Now, honor killings and Sharia law—those things I can see fighting back about.

It's France.

This is a big deal for them.

Royal Fanatic

03-04-2011, 08:36 AM

France should rescind this law as soon as Islamic countries allow miniskirts and tube tops.

BucEyedPea

03-04-2011, 08:47 AM

France should rescind this law as soon as Islamic countries allow miniskirts and tube tops.

:LOL:

Oh my! Well, I have heard the Saudi Arabia is about to boil over next. Think the women will be banning burqas and bras?

RedNeckRaider

03-04-2011, 09:36 AM

I think we can all agree that making a woman wear such a thing is ridiculous and incompatible with our modern day ideas of human freedom and dignity. And I think we can also agree that those women who do support the wearing of the burqa are misguided or ignorant or something along those lines.
But doesn't this bill in practice actually further restrict the Muslim woman who wears such garb? They won't even be able to go out into public without being fined. They will essentially be forced to house arrest.

Sometimes things just work out~

thecoffeeguy

03-04-2011, 09:57 AM

Kudos to France.

Now lets watch what how the "Religion of peace" responds.

This should be good.

:popcorn:

alnorth

03-04-2011, 10:01 AM

Honestly, I see allowing the Burqa to be similar, not equivalent in severity, but similar to allowing a man to marry multiple wives and have his own harem all in the name of religion. Even if the women are brainwashed from birth into thinking its a swell idea, it generally does them more harm than good. (its hard to ban because then you can just not marry and simply shack up, but society doesn't have to encourage the practice)

Similarly, if your idiotic religion brainwashes you into being so meek and submissive that you think showing your face is a sin, that harms you even if you think its a swell idea, and we don't have to bend over backwards to try to be understanding of every single nutty, oppressive religion. (legally in america yes, but not morally)

This will never, ever fly in America because it would be flatly unconstitutional, but we also do not have the same problem that France is dealing with. 99+% of the time over here, a head scarf is about as far as it goes. Muslims are far more integrated into our culture and more Americanized than in France, where they refuse to become french. If France wants to ban the burqa in their country, fine. We can't do it and we don't really have a need to do it, but if they can and they think they need to, its their country.

HonestChieffan

03-04-2011, 11:52 AM

Sarcozy wants them to move to somewhere else where they can wear it. I agree with him, if they cannot and will not assimilate into the French culture they can get the next train back to the 1200's somewhere else.

Jaric

03-04-2011, 12:04 PM

What are the odds on them surrendering at the first sign of resistance?

thecoffeeguy

03-04-2011, 12:08 PM

Sarcozy wants them to move to somewhere else where they can wear it. I agree with him, if they cannot and will not assimilate into the French culture they can get the next train back to the 1200's somewhere else.

Completely agree.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 12:12 PM

Sarcozy wants them to move to somewhere else where they can wear it. I agree with him, if they cannot and will not assimilate into the French culture they can get the next train back to the 1200's somewhere else.

And if they don't assimilate, we can put them in little ghettos. And then when the next recession hits, we can blame them. And then we can put them in ovens and scatter their ashes on Poland.

Huffmeister

03-04-2011, 12:20 PM

The law imposes a fine of 150 euros ($190) and/or a citizenship course as punishment for wearing a face-covering veil.

What is a 'citizenship course'? Is that like a 're-education program'?

alnorth

03-04-2011, 12:20 PM

And if they don't assimilate, we can put them in little ghettos. And then when the next recession hits, we can blame them. And then we can put them in ovens and scatter their ashes on Poland.

dumb slippery slope argument identified.

HonestChieffan

03-04-2011, 12:43 PM

They moved to France for a reason, they can move out for a reason. France has no need to change to suit them.

go bowe

03-04-2011, 01:05 PM

They moved to France for a reason, they can move out for a reason. France has no need to change to suit them.from what i read in the arab press, most of them migrated to europe to escape political repression and to find economic opportunities that didn't exist in their home countries...

they may be pissed about the veil thing, but they're not going to leave over that alone...

BigMeatballDave

03-04-2011, 01:10 PM

Yeah, it is a taste of their own medicine but it's still a petty issue to use.
French people that are religious, not Muslim, will tell you that France is very, very anti-religion in general......so they are being progressive. And good Marxists as well. That "equality" statement showed that side of them.Well, thats not a good way to be progressive. I'm all for letting people be who they wanna be, so long as its not harmful to others. I'm sure some of these women actually want to wear traditional Muslim garb. Banning them is wrong, in that respect. I'm torn on this, to be honest.

HonestChieffan

03-04-2011, 01:11 PM

from what i read in the arab press, most of them migrated to europe to escape political repression and to find economic opportunities that didn't exist in their home countries...

they may be pissed about the veil thing, but they're not going to leave over that alone...

well then stay and assimilate...thats Sarcozy's point...its the failure of multiculturalism at the expense of French Culture. If they dont like France and French customs and cultures they are free to hit the road on the first freight out of town

WV

03-04-2011, 01:18 PM

Wow.

When Europe grows a spine and starts to fight back, you know you must really suck.

:clap:

Radar Chief

03-04-2011, 01:38 PM

dumb slippery slope argument identified.

Nazi Tourette’s, from "assimilate" to Holocaust in 20 minutes.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 02:03 PM

dumb slippery slope argument identified.

That's an analogy. "We don't want them because they are not like us. They wear things over their heads. Let's force them to change by imposing fines on them." That's not freedom or progress. That's forced assimilation of the other.

"France has no need to change to suit them."

No one is forcing French citizens to wear one. Muslims aren't imposing on unwilling French school children (other than perhaps their own children) that they wear a burqa during school hours.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 02:06 PM

Nazi Tourette’s, from "assimilate" to Holocaust in 20 minutes.

Very fast. Quite an amazing thing. If you ever read German testimonials, a lot of them are like "I don't know how it happened. Things were bad. Next thing I know, things were getting better, and we smashed Jewish storefronts. Then I heard about the camps in Poland. We didn't take a step back and look at it right."

Jaric

03-04-2011, 02:12 PM

Are some of you actually concerned the French are going to channel their inner nazi's and take over Europe?

The only people they put into camps are the chefs who burn their sauces.

Honestly, who gives a shit? If they want to ban Burqua's have at it. If you think that makes them assholes, what did you expect? They're French.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 02:19 PM

Are some of you actually concerned the French are going to channel their inner nazi's and take over Europe?

The only people they put into camps are the chefs who burn their sauces.

Honestly, who gives a shit? If they want to ban Burqua's have at it. If you think that makes them assholes, what did you expect? They're French.

I expect this from the French, but it concerns me that some Americans go "Hey, they've got the right idea!" It should concern anyone who is interested in protecting basic human freedoms such as religious practices. This is the United States of America, we should be able to sit down and enjoy a meal with a Muslim who holds conservative ideas and tell each other assertively, but peacefully, that the other is a damned moron. And then shake hands at the end of the meal, offer to pay, and hire each others sons.

Jaric

03-04-2011, 02:28 PM

I expect this from the French, but it concerns me that some Americans go "Hey, they've got the right idea!" It should concern anyone who is interested in protecting basic human freedoms such as religious practices. This is the United States of America, we should be able to sit down and enjoy a meal with a Muslim who holds conservative ideas and tell each other assertively, but peacefully, that the other is a damned moron. And then shake hands at the end of the meal, offer to pay, and hire each others sons.

I assure you, Burqas are in no danger of being banned here in the USA no matter how many people wish it so. So if that's your concern, rest easy. Even if we wanted to, as another poster stated there is no need. I can't tell you the last time I've seen a woman wear one. It's not an issue for us.

As to freedom of religion? We also have freedom of speech, which allows people to voice their opinions, even if those opinions are against one of the other freedoms protected under the Bill of Rights. That's the bitch about freedom. Is that sometimes people use it for things you don't agree with. Like those Westboro Baptist assholes. There should be no expectation that we will all get along with each other while expressing differing opinions. Quite the opposite actually.

mnchiefsguy

03-04-2011, 02:33 PM

I expect this from the French, but it concerns me that some Americans go "Hey, they've got the right idea!" It should concern anyone who is interested in protecting basic human freedoms such as religious practices. This is the United States of America, we should be able to sit down and enjoy a meal with a Muslim who holds conservative ideas and tell each other assertively, but peacefully, that the other is a damned moron. And then shake hands at the end of the meal, offer to pay, and hire each others sons.

The only problem with this is that more often than not, the conservative Muslim agrees with the belief of forcibly imposing his views on the rest of the population. The radical Muslims may be the ones doing the terror, but the conservative and "moderate" Muslims sit on the sideline. Even the moderate clerics have ties to terrorist organizations, and none of them are willing to condemn Hezbollah or Hamas.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 02:37 PM

I assure you, Burqas are in no danger of being banned here in the USA no matter how many people wish it so. So if that's your concern, rest easy. Even if we wanted to, as another poster stated there is no need. I can't tell you the last time I've seen a woman wear one. It's not an issue for us.

I can assure you, if it were that popular, it can happen here. We're not immune from doing discriminatory things, and we have a long track record of it. You're right, though, in that it's not that popular, the wearing or outlawing, as of now. As of now. But since some people are wishing it so (seriously, on this board -- on this thread), I don't mind playing advocate.

As to freedom of religion? We also have freedom of speech, which allows people to voice their opinions, even if those opinions are against one of the other freedoms protected under the Bill of Rights. That's the bitch about freedom. Is that sometimes people use it for things you don't agree with. Like those Westboro Baptist assholes. There should be no expectation that we will all get along with each other while expressing differing opinions. Quite the opposite actually.

Okay, but I'm not sure that this addresses anything I said.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 02:39 PM

The only problem with this is that more often than not, the conservative Muslim agrees with the belief of forcibly imposing his views on the rest of the population. The radical Muslims may be the ones doing the terror, but the conservative and "moderate" Muslims sit on the sideline. Even the moderate clerics have ties to terrorist organizations, and none of them are willing to condemn Hezbollah or Hamas.

So we should outlaw the burqa? Where are you going with this?

Jaric

03-04-2011, 02:49 PM

Okay, but I'm not sure that this addresses anything I said.

You made a comment about how the freedom of religion is protected here in response to other comments made about how muslims suck (paraphrasing)

I was just pointing out that just as a muslim has the right to wear a Burqa, people have the right to say they suck for it. Simply having the rights to something doesn't have anything to do with all getting along which seemed to be the point you were making.

Jenson71

03-04-2011, 02:53 PM

You made a comment about how the freedom of religion is protected here in response to other comments made about how muslims suck (paraphrasing)

I was just pointing out that just as a muslim has the right to wear a Burqa, people have the right to say they suck for it. Simply having the rights to something doesn't have anything to do with all getting along which seemed to be the point you were making.

I know that. I mentioned that I think the burqa sucks. It does suck.

Jaric

03-04-2011, 03:08 PM

I know that. I mentioned that I think the burqa sucks. It does suck.

Meh. If a muslim woman wants to wear it, who am I to tell her differently? Now if she's being forced to wear one, that's a different story. Jewish people wear Yahmakuhs (I'm sure I butchered that spelling) Indian people (I believe Hindu's) put that red dot on their foreheads (sorry the name of that escapes me at the moment)

Lots of religions require people wear weird shit to those of us who are not part of them. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

ClevelandBronco

03-04-2011, 03:41 PM

Henceforth, any French woman found to be wearing a burqa will be subject to stoning.

BucEyedPea

03-04-2011, 04:55 PM

The only problem with this is that more often than not, the conservative Muslim agrees with the belief of forcibly imposing his views on the rest of the population.

Are they doing that in France? If so they should be stopped and they should be stopped here.
But in their own countries they should be allowed their own ways.

alnorth

03-04-2011, 11:29 PM

Are they doing that in France? If so they should be stopped and they should be stopped here.
But in their own countries they should be allowed their own ways.

It really comes down to the definition of "force". If a woman is raised to believe she should be a sister-wife with 6 others, meekly tolerating any abuse that her husband may dish out because he knows best, and she believes this is the way she should live her life with all her heart because thats how she was raised, does that make it right?

Not every culture is equal. Some cultures are simply, objectively, superior.

Sometimes just because you say "thats how I want to live my life" is not ok if you were brainwashed that way to your detriment. In America yes, it is almost always ok, its a weakness of our system (but not a weakness I'd give up, because that weakness comes with a tremendous amount of freedom), but the constitution aside, why should we say its ok for a woman to meekly wear a burqa in the belief that showing her face is a sin? Of course she thinks its ok, but she's brainwashed. The french decided they won't put up with it.

Fine, good for the french. The nazi argument is stupid because we are not talking about rational logically-thinking actors here, we are talking about people who were raised to be sheep baa'ing at us that they like the burqa.

BucEyedPea

03-05-2011, 12:24 AM

It really comes down to the definition of "force". If a woman is raised to believe she should be a sister-wife with 6 others, meekly tolerating any abuse that her husband may dish out because he knows best, and she believes this is the way she should live her life with all her heart because thats how she was raised, does that make it right?
I don't see what this has to do with wearing or banning a burqa which is pretty harmless. Are you really comparing wife beating with wearing a burqa?

Other than that, you're speaking from the pov of your own culture where you developed your sense of good and bad or right and wrong which are opinions. Sure some values lead to improved conditions but a culture has to adopt those things on their own because they see that. Our society had the Enlightenment and 2000 years before such customs changed. Yes we had similar customs in the past. Women had to wear gloves when dancing with a man so she wouldn't touch his skin etc. However, we did it through our own trial and error.

If they are in a western culture they have to live by the laws but passing laws on clothing is not much different than when the aristocracy resented the rise of the merchant classes by banning them from wearing clothes aristocrats wore. It's harmless. Really I see this as pretty petty for using force.

Not every culture is equal. Some cultures are simply, objectively, superior.
Except this is not objective. It's an opinion formed by your own values.That's what makes cultures different. I don't like all cultures being the same. I mean would you tell certain Africans to not stretch their necks in their own country? I wouldn't. I may try to educate them or try to persuade them but I wouldn't come on all superior and condescending to them. That doesn't reach anybody. But forcing them?

Sometimes just because you say "thats how I want to live my life" is not ok if you were brainwashed that way to your detriment. In America yes, it is almost always ok, its a weakness of our system (but not a weakness I'd give up, because that weakness comes with a tremendous amount of freedom), but the constitution aside, why should we say its ok for a woman to meekly wear a burqa in the belief that showing her face is a sin? Of course she thinks its ok, but she's brainwashed. The french decided they won't put up with it.
It depends on what that behavior is though for the state to step in to protect. This isn't a Constitutional issue for me. This says something about France. Really though, this is your values. Brainwashing is a very specific thing and I wouldn't say this meets that. It's more social conditioning, how they are raised etc. But really you could say the same for a Roman Catholic nun out in public in a traditional habit. I am sure some would be offended by that. The French are bigots when it comes to religion in general. It's very atheistic. So it's no big secret that secularists try to force their beliefs on others too due to their own intolerance.

Fine, good for the french. The nazi argument is stupid because we are not talking about rational logically-thinking actors here, we are talking about people who were raised to be sheep baa'ing at us that they like the burqa.
It's fascist because it's controlling something basically harmless using force of the state simply because they're intolerant. I mean it's not like it's an honor killing where someone is harmed. Whether or not it's stupid is just opinion, not fact, nor objective. It's your values showing. Values are subjective. It shows the values of French officials.

Frazod

03-05-2011, 01:09 AM

Nice. I rarely respect anything the Frogs do, but this rocks.

I wonder how you say "If you don't like it, get the fuck out" in French?

Hog Farmer

03-05-2011, 02:01 AM

The underlying meaning to this is "If you're a Muslim then get the fuck out of our country"

Chief Henry

03-05-2011, 05:28 AM

I wonder how the local bank would respond if I walked into the bank wearing a burqa.

BucEyedPea

03-05-2011, 06:52 AM

The underlying meaning to this is "If you're a Muslim then get the **** out of our country"

If that's the intention behind the legislation then it would be rational because it's to get them to pick up and move on their own. But I can see it going either ways — protests/violence or moving out.

Still if France can do that to one group, what's to stop them from doing it to another?
What's that saying? "First they came for the communists and I did not speak out....and then they came for me and there was no one to speak for me."
They did have their anti-semitic period....so I can see history repeating.

DJJasonp

03-05-2011, 09:17 AM

Maybe stating the obvious here.....

but if the French can pass a law banning the burqa.....could the female arm-pit hair be next!!!

(please??)

BucEyedPea

03-05-2011, 02:00 PM

Maybe stating the obvious here.....

but if the French can pass a law banning the burqa.....could the female arm-pit hair be next!!!

(please??)

That's your values and not theirs too! :p

JohnnyV13

03-05-2011, 04:09 PM

Personally, I'd support a ban on women wearing clothes if they are under 30.

But hey, I guess that might not pass.

alnorth

03-05-2011, 07:06 PM

Personally, I'd support a ban on women wearing clothes if they are under 30.

But hey, I guess that might not pass.

I think its worth a shot. You also need to narrow that down to 18 to 30, not just under 30. Even if the supreme court eventually threw it out, they would be forced to comply while the civil rights lawyers fought it.

Frankie

03-05-2011, 07:16 PM

Sounds pretty fascist to me. I mean who does wearing a Burqa harm? I can see if driving on a public road or a dress code in schools but just to ban it? But for the equality of the sexes? France is a pretty anti-religion country in general.

I do not consider it racist, BEP. IMO, no one should be allowed to wear a mask to cover their identity. Cold weather masks are the only exception IMO.

listopencil

03-05-2011, 10:30 PM

"Clear majorities also backed burqa bans in Germany, Britain and Spain, while two out of three Americans opposed it, the survey found."

Good.

BucEyedPea

03-05-2011, 10:36 PM

I do not consider it racist, BEP. IMO, no one should be allowed to wear a mask to cover their identity. Cold weather masks are the only exception IMO.

Yeah, but it's different when a state dictates something like this. I mean I don't need a law to not wear one.

listopencil

03-05-2011, 11:13 PM

I do not consider it racist, BEP. IMO, no one should be allowed to wear a mask to cover their identity. Cold weather masks are the only exception IMO.

A woman with over-sized sunglasses and heavy makeup can conceal her identity almost as well as a woman in a burqa. Throw on a floppy hat and a light scarf...it gets very, very difficult to identify someone.