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Let's work in tranches and do an easy/playable piece, something more adventurous then another sonata. Then we can look at the next tranche.

How about Mendelssohn's Op. 102 No. 6, then Schubert's Moment Musical No. 6 and then Haydn's Sonata no. 50? I want to keep the sonatas in a chronological/progressive order.

Is there any more to talk about with this Op? I hate to leave it so soon if there is. I quite like this one and glad will have in my portfolio now. Also agree that this has been an easy one to learn. At least it has been for me, as it is about my speed for slowly reading and learning, and can't find an easier key. Bringing up to tempo and performance/presentation standard will be another matter. But, lots of time for this.

Shall I start preparing Schubert? Or, do we want to look at any more Mendelsshohn (if we are complete with this one?) Perhaps, your recital selection, Richard. Or, perhaps we could encourage Keystring and PS88 to choose a selection for this themed recital (March time frame it is looking like) as well, and take a look at those.

I see discussions on the chords, and the chords do give a general idea of how the piece moves, and I see discussions about notes overlapping other notes, and appoggiatura effect etc. But I don't get a picture of the piece itself. If we're discussing sonata form - does this have a form? Is there more to it?

This is a song form. It might be used in a sonata movement - it's not that far removed from Clementi's middle movements.

We've already examined the structure of the phrases, viz 4 + 4 + 6 + 4, repeat the last two and add a 4 bar coda.

You might want to look at the structure of the individual phrases to see how he has avoided squareness. We know he's employed dotted rhythm, and we've seen that this has been introduced by the Romantics, but look at what else he's done.

The first two bars feature a rising sequence from G to E not D. So he's used a five note sequence instead of 4 and missed the D in the ascent (that could have been another quaver pair with C with or without dotting) and he's accommodated the descent back to G from D instead of E by duplicating the A as an appoggiatura.

Look how he's chosen to get from E to C in M5-6 melodically and how he's harmonised it. He's added F#'s for a chromatic rise and then added the D major chords over a C base instead of dropping the bass to D as I would have done. Then look at how he's avoided predictability with the end of the phrase in M8. That's not among any of the choices I'd have come up with.

Then he's used a six measure phrase for line 3 to avoid the four square-ness. See how subtly the bass has changed in the repeat of the these last two phrases.

Also, each time we start at C and pass through C7(Tension), F resolve, Fdim7(more tension) to C resolve. The final Fdim7 (end of M31) brings in the high F before descending and ascending through the final C resolve.

I'm sure there is an easier way to describe it, but this is my take on it.

Songs were called songs because they were sung. This is called a song because it's written in a melodic style. A sonata was a sound piece as opposed to a sung piece.

Schubert began the move towards song like writing in his Impromptu's and Moments Musicaux. It influenced the Romantic move towards this shorter song-like style of lyrical music. They couldn't very well continue in the Beethoven tradition. He'd pushed the boundaries too far. Mendelssohn, Chopin and Schumann picked up on this idea and led the Romantic movement with it but it was Schubert's genius originally.

The coda is bringing the piece to a close. He begins in M28, drawing out the bass C to prevent closure on beat three. In the bass he's rising up from the C to an expected octave but doesn't quite make it. When you expect a third one he throws in a rather wonderful cadential left hand with a really unexpected dissonant CB while the RH figure is condensed to lead into the final C major triads in M32.

The coda is bringing the piece to a close. He begins in M28, drawing out the bass C to prevent closure on beat three. In the bass he's rising up from the C to an expected octave but doesn't quite make it. When you expect a third one he throws in a rather wonderful cadential left hand with a really unexpected dissonant CB while the RH figure is condensed to lead into the final C major triads in M32.

Yes, I had this as well.

The work to me is very reminiscent of a Hymn. I'm not sure why, since it does not have words. Perhaps the pace and progression of chords.

In listening to the posted performance again, I find it interesting how the various instances of staccato are treated. That is, hardly noticeable in first phrases. More noticeable beginning around M19 forward and very distinctive at M26-M27. I suppose, this is just at the discretion of the performer, and their interpretation of the piece. Without hearing and preferring a particular treatment I may otherwise be inclined to do things quite differently.

So, we've looked at a song without words and we've seen changes in the musical language, to wit, shorter and more lyrical forms and wider use of dotted rhythm within a phrase (as opposed to the use of dotted rhythm throughout the phrase).

Originally Posted By: Greener

The work to me is very reminiscent of a Hymn. I'm not sure why...

It's partly that he's using very rich harmony. Not just melody and accompaniment as a Chopin Nocturne or Mazurka might but almost polyphonic, look at M13-14, for example.

Mendelssohn was very much influenced by Bach (what great composer wasn't?) and turned his hand to preludes and fugues (and polyphonic writing generally) better than almost anyone else after Bach._________________________

If everyone's finished with this little piece we can move on by going a little backward in time and look at Schubert's sixth musical moment.

Born on January 31, 1797, in Himmelpfortgrund, Austria, Franz Peter Schubert demonstrated an early gift for music. As a child, his talents included an ability to play the piano, violin and organ. He was also an excellent singer.

Schubert enrolled at the Stadtkonvikt, which trained young vocalists so they could one day sing at the chapel of the Imperial Court, and in 1808 he earned a scholarship that awarded him a spot in the court's chapel choir. Schubert played the violin in the students' orchestra, was quickly promoted to leader, and conducted in Ruzicka's absence. He also attended choir practice and, with his fellow pupils, practiced chamber music and piano playing.

Between 1813 and 1815, Schubert proved to be a prolific songwriter. By 1814, the young composer had written a number of piano pieces, and had produced string quartets, a symphony, and a three-act opera.

Schubert had his struggles as well. In 1820, he was hired by two opera houses, the Karthnerthof Theatre and Theatre-an-der-Wein, to compose a pair of operas, neither of which fared very well. Music publishers, meanwhile, were afraid to take a chance on a young composer like Schubert, whose music was not considered traditional.

His fortunes began to change in 1821, when, with the help of some friends, he began offering his songs on a subscription basis. Money started coming his way. In Vienna especially, Schubert's harmonious songs and dances were popular. Across the city, concert parties called Schubertiaden sprung up in the homes of wealthy residents.

By late 1822, however, Schubert encountered another difficult period. His financial needs going unmet, and his friendships increasingly strained, Schubert's life was further darkened when he became severely sick—historians believe he almost certainly contracted syphilis.

And yet, Schubert continued to produce at a prolific rate. None of the finished pieces, however, brought him the fortune he deserved or so greatly needed. For a time, Schubert, almost constantly penniless, returned to teaching. He also continued to write ...

In 1827, no doubt influenced by the passing of Ludwig van Beethoven and his impressive musical legacy, Schubert channeled a bit of the late composer and created a string of pieces. This work included the first 12 songs of the "Winterreise," as well as the "Piano Sonata in C Minor" and two piano solos, "Impromptus" and "Moments Musicaux."

It was only after Schubert's passing that his musical genius received the kind of recognition it deserved. His talent lay in is ability to adapt to almost any kind of musical form.

It is no secret that Schubert adored Beethoven—he was awed by him, to the point that he was too timid to even introduce himself to the musical giant when the two passed one another on the streets of Vienna. But it is far from a stretch to mention these two musical giants in the same sentence.

In 1872, a memorial to Schubert was constructed in the Stadtpark in Vienna. In 1888, his grave, along with Beethoven's, was relocated to Zentralfriedhof, the Viennese cemetery that is among the largest in the world. There, Schubert was placed alongside fellow musical giants Johann Strauss II and Johannes Brahms.

Minuet and Trio form, with a da capo to the minuet. Or at least, it's in 3/4 time; I'm not sure I'd say it's really a minuet. Several repeats along the way. Key changes back and forth between Ab major and E major, and the Trio in Db major. (I did consider whether any of these might be minor, but the tonic chord for each major key appears right away in each section.). Db is maybe not so surprising, being the subdominant of Ab. But E is distinctly surprising, as is Schubert's method of moving in and out of these keys.

That's from examining the score. Now I'm curious as to what this sounds like. But either my piano is desperately out of tune, or the charms of this piece are not revealed when played at a dirge-like tempo, because my attempt to play, slowly through the piece sounded horrible, horrible, horrible. And my iPhone for some weird reason won't let me play the video Greener linked to (I think this is just an iPhone oddity, though, and I'll be able to listen from my work computer tomorrow.). So I don't know what it sounds like yet.

Now I'm curious as to what this sounds like. But either my piano is desperately out of tune, or the charms of this piece are not revealed when played at a dirge-like tempo, because my attempt to play, slowly through the piece sounded horrible, horrible, horrible.

It must be the piano, PS88. I find there is some lovely rich harmony in this, and also find it to be really quite pretty.

I had a hard time following this. That is, the first time through, all the repeats occur. Then I was expecting the piece to end at M115. But instead ... back to the beginning, without repeats this time and only up to M77 where it ends.

So, Allegretto D.C. means, go back to the beginning? And also the positioning of the thin and bolder lines at the end of each section actually matter? It seems to make sense now, but only after an intense head scratch.

The only other thing I would suggest with the keys is ... Ab Minor in the section just before the Trio and also closing out the piece in this dreary context. Although, the D natural bothers me in this section and I don't know what to make of it.

In Bach's day the suite developed from a concatenation of movements in dance style of which one was the minuet.

The suite typically consisted of an optional prelude, then an Allemande, Courante and Sarabande. Between those and the final Gigue was another dance and it's double, a Minuet was the most common but there were also Gavottes, Loures, Bourées, Passepieds, etc.

It was the French style, I believe, that started the fashion of three part harmony in the 'double' that gave rise to it being called a trio. Haydn and Mozart continued the tradition of keeping a minuet in their sonatas. It was Beethoven who replaced the Minuet with the scherzo.

The form then is binary for the minuet, binary again for the double, followed by a final run through of the first without repeats.

Schubert has called this piece an Allegretto and the instruction at the end of the trio is Allegretto D.C. It is therefore not a stretch to call this an Allegretto and Trio. If you know how to dance a minuet you'll also know that this is decidedly not one.

I once again have visions of a viridescent Canadian performing a waltz to this and this time accompanied by an Argentinian Tangoist attempting a minuet to it.

____________________________

The death of Beethoven in 1827 and Schubert in 1828 marked the end of an extraordinary half century in Vienna that came to be called the Classical period in music. Music before Haydn was centred around many European cities and, after the death of these last two giants, such was to be the case again, however influential Paris may have seemed on its own. Vienna also reclaimed some glory with Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler and Wolff and the Second Viennese School' of Berg, Schoenberg and Webern.

The sonata principle developed out of the Baroque binary form was was all about tonality. A piece began in tonic, moved to the dominant or dominant substitute, modulated then moved back to tonic. Sonata form is thematic within the key structure. For Haydn, the second themes were frequently derived from the first, often beginning with similar intervals but finishing differently. Mozart and Beethoven preferred contrasting themes to bring out more of the drama between the two keys.

Haydn and Mozart both had fame and royal patronage and Beethoven moved towards a more freelance position, though he too enjoyed royal patronage but they were more at his beck and call rather him to theirs.

After Schubert there was a greater divide between artistic composers and commercial composers, or at least, the divide became more sharply contrasted.

In his symphonies he turned the sonata key principle to suit his own style of music. His unfinished symphony in B minor recapitulated the second theme in D major instead of B major/B minor. In another (I forget which one) he recapitulated the first theme in the subdominant so that he wouldn't have to change the bridge passage.

Schubert realised that Beethoven had stretched tonality and modulation so far that listeners could no longer follow or recognise the key structures so it was no longer necessary to observe them as a convention. Classical music became more and more thematic and he himself introduced longer and more lyrical themes. The audience ability to recognise a returning theme, whatever key it was in, became more important.

His Wanderer Fantasy was transcribed by Franz Liszt who was inspired by it to write what I regard as the crowning achievement of sonata form, the B minor Sonata, a masterpiece of thematic writing.

In his last years he produced his Impromptus amd Moments Musicaux which were to be enormously influential to the Romantics that followed. He became a source of inspiration for them and saved them from having to follow an act like Beethoven.

In many ways, then, Schubert was at the cusp of musical history. He closed off the classical era and became the gateway to a new dawn. The shortest lived of all the great composers but by no means the least prolific nor influential. His inventive lyricism and his ability to handle keys is second to none and his mastery of form reserves a place for him in the very front rank of all the great composers.

OK, I'm a terrible churl. I've given it a listen, and I found it boring. (I don't like Schubert lieder either.)

To check out my perceptions, I hunted up my Themed Recital piece on Youtube (Satie's Gymnopédie 3), and I find it intriguing (although the recording I found was played at about twice the proper speed; I don't know what I'd think of it played at the proper "lent et grave" tempo). This probably just confirms to some of you (Richard I'm looking at you ) that my perceptions are really out of whack.

I found the Mendelssohn uninteresting also, until I started to play through it, and then it started to intrigue me. So maybe if I could play through the Schubert I would start to discover it and find it more interesting. But it seems to be slightly too many big chords for me to read fluently, even at a slow pace.

We don't want you being bored. (You listen to Satie who allows enough time between bars to read the paper but you find Schubert boring? Hmmm!)

There are five other MM to choose from or eight Impromptu's. I'll go through any of them with you or you might try and persuade the others to change piece. I'm fine either way. But I don't want you, of all people, missing out on one of the finest exporers of key.

I expect I'll find it more interesting as I delve into the harmonies more. I'm intrigued by his writing of E7 enharmonically with a bunch of flats, before shifting key signature to E major. I called it quits for the night before getting to the Trio, or really grappling with his harmony throughout. I'll tackle it again tonight.

I'm also looking at the unity tieing his phrases together, and the variety differentiating them from each other.

Maybe I should try playing just the top notes, with select bass notes, as a start on a skeleton of the piece. I have had very little practice playing heavily chorded pieces like this; this is a big gap that I want to fix.

I once again have visions of a viridescent Canadian performing a waltz to this ...

You can go ahead and dispel this notion, Richard. Indeed, when I saw the waltz like time signature I right away went to the closet to dig out my dancing gear. But unfortunately, packed it all back away again (in utter frustration and disappointment,) shortly thereafter .

Richard, do I understand that this is part of a suite then? I think my theory book has a write up about Minuet form. All that we had so far is that this was a piece called Allegretto, with a performance and link to the score. A lot of us are in different stages of learning.

Now I'm curious as to what this sounds like. But either my piano is desperately out of tune, or the charms of this piece are not revealed when played at a dirge-like tempo, because my attempt to play, slowly through the piece sounded horrible, horrible, horrible.

I'm going for subjective rather than "knowledgeable" impressions, (especially since I don't have that much knowledge here).

Mostly I was observing chords, and some movement in the music. There is a huge particular contrast between the main part and the Trio part. The main part has a lot of minor chords, and there is a lot of chromatic movement going up and down. The progressions themselves are not as "usual" as in the first music that we analyzed. All together it feels a bit sadder, more unsettling. The chromatic movement makes me think of the shark theme from (lost the name of the movie suddenly). All of that together may give this unsettled, sad, or similar feeling which you are experiencing, PianoStudent88, especially when playing it slowly.

When you get to the Trio, this same thing lifts. You have the more predictable things that we analyzed before, the movement is larger, and there are lots of major and seventh chords. In fact, I think that it is the contrast which creates an effect.

I would like to hear other performances to see what various performers have done with this piece, but it seems to be hard to find (I'll try some other key words).

I know that by this time the Minuet or Menuet was a "dance form" but it no longer functioned as a dance, so it would have lost some of its rhythmic qualities. But might other performers put more rhythm into it, or play it faster, or highlight particular notes? If so, then this would also give us aspects of the music to listen for and notice.

Richard, do I understand that this is part of a suite then? I think my theory book has a write up about Minuet form. All that we had so far is that this was a piece called Allegretto, with a performance and link to the score. A lot of us are in different stages of learning.

This is not a minuet and is not part of a suite.

It is structurally similar to one of the doubles in a Bach Suite, such as a minuet, but is no longer anything to do with a dance.

Bach and his contemporaries used a minuet as part of a suite. Mozart and Haydn adopted it as part of a sonata and Beethoven adapted it to form a Scherzo. The first part was not typically repeated. The second movement of his Moonlight sonata is an Allegretto of exactly this structure.

Ok, I'm getting confused about the information being presented. First I read something about a minuet. Then, Richard, your previous post began with information about suites, and went on from there. I'm seeing information, but I can't seem to contextualize it.

Now here you have written that the Moonlight Sonata is "an Allegretto of the same structure". This makes me assume that there is such a thing as "an Allegretto" like there is such a thing as "a Sonata" or "A Minuet". I thought "allegretto" referred to a tempo and maybe mood or rhythm (allegro is fast-ish and lively; allegretto is either slower or faster than that, etc.).

I feel like I've walked into the middle of a lecture mid-term after not attending classes. Where might I find the information or context that I'm missing? (What do I google?)

Ok, I'm getting confused about the information being presented. First I read something about a minuet. Then, Richard, your previous post began with information about suites, and went on from there. I'm seeing information, but I can't seem to contextualize it.

Now here you have written that the Moonlight Sonata is "an Allegretto of the same structure". This makes me assume that there is such a thing as "an Allegretto" like there is such a thing as "a Sonata" or "A Minuet". I thought "allegretto" referred to a tempo and maybe mood or rhythm (allegro is fast-ish and lively; allegretto is either slower or faster than that, etc.).

I feel like I've walked into the middle of a lecture mid-term after not attending classes. Where might I find the information or context that I'm missing? (What do I google?)

PS88 mentioned this as being "Minuet and Trio form, with a da capo to the minuet".

The minuet began life in the suite. It is da capo ternary form.

Haydn and Mozart continued to include a minuet in their sonatas.

Beethoven did not use the minuet but introduced in its stead the Scherzo. It continued to have da capo ternary form but Beethoven frequently omitted the repeat of the first section.

This is now da capo ternary form but no longer anything to do with a minuet.

Schubert usually includes the repeat of all the sections.

There are many variations of the da capo form just as there were many variations of the Rondo.

At the end of the trio there is usually an instruction such "minuet da capo" or, as here, "Allegretto da capo" (go to the head of the Allegretto).

There are da capo forms, there are ternary forms and there are ternary da capo forms (or da capo ternary forms). This piece can be described by any of these terms. Because the tempo indication is allegretto the piece is an allegretto. This does not refer to its form.

A song would have song form. There are many song forms. They (the forms) don't all have names. Some of them are just the form of that particular song. It is a song form (a form of a song), one of many song forms.

This is an allegretto. It is a da capo. It is thus an allegretto da capo. There isn't one allegretto form, there are many. They don't have a set pattern or a named one.

We started off learning what binary and ternary form is. You have mentioned these two, and we should all know what they are since they were covered.

We then went off on the topic of sonatas and sonata form. There was an immediate problem because sonatas consist of three movements, some of which are in sonata form, and some of which are in rondo form (or other forms?). We looked at sonatinas, since they are like simple sonatas, which makes learning to analyze them easier.

Now it seems that there is such a thing as a suite (not covered). This thread is called "sonata", but we seem to have jumped. The previous piece was a "song" in "song form" (of which apparently there are many), and the present piece is in a (undefined as of yet, form?) -- it has nothing to do with sonatas either, right? So we are now just freely exploring any kind of musical form? Going on a tangent which will come together later?