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Topic: Strategy for IS fighting Clans? (Read 8562 times)

What are people's thoughts about the best strategies for the Inner Sphere to use against Clan forces (that is, Clan tech and Clan-level skill of pilots)?

In particular:

(1) It seems to me like the light weight class of IS units is pretty doomed against the Clans, due to the ease of hitting fast-moving units with Clan pulse lasers. So if an IS player wants fast units, they should probably choose fast mediums or heavies rather than light units that rely mainly on speed for defense. Does that sound right?

(2) Should you take as many long-range weapons as possible? Or give up on the long-range game and just try to close in to short range and fight the battle there?

(3) What about if you're trying to take on the Clans with 3025 tech?

(4) Just in general: what works against the Clans given their many advantages?

(Obviously this is intended for those eras when the IS has no access to Clan tech)

1) Yes the IS Lights are not tough enough to stand up to clan tech weapons, they hit hard and the Clan pilot's skills greatly reduce the advantage of mobility that they could have.

2) Long range is good. IS tech is not good enough to outmaneuver and outgun a Clan Omnimech which typically move like a unit one weight class lower while carrying firepower of at least one weight class heavier. The real strength of the IS (and RCTs) is the vehicle corps you want armored bricks with long range weapons (Gauss tanks ala Challenger Xs or Alacorns, Rommel Howitzer), a vicious ambush predator (SRM Carrier, Hetzers, Von Luckners), or a skirmish hover tank with a heavy weapon (Saladin, Regulator). You can also trust in the power of an LBX autocannon to get that golden BB that disables the enemy mech.

3) 3025 Tech is rough, I'd go with outnumbering a Clan force at least three fold to negate maneuverability advantages and the fact that a Clan Omnimech rarely has enough ammunition for their vastly superior missile weapons. You can do it with LRM carriers, artillery, and infantry spotters but it's not going to be easy expect heavy casualties.

4) Smart bidding, unit and terrain selection works against Clan forces. If you can ambush them (with infernos to slow them down if possible) or bring the fight in close you have a much better chance of success, unfortunately the Clan weaponry is just head and shoulders above anything the IS has that only the most optimal weapons (Gauss and LBX among the best, think Dragon Fire and Falconer) come close to negating the almighty Clan ERPPC and cLPL.

Send in the weaker warriors first. Good rule of thumb: If a warrior asks for money on your first meeting, front line. If they hijack conversations to rant about their political views, front line. If they ask the female warriors for pictures of their boobs, front line.

Once they are focused on the weak warriors, commit to the Final Solution. The Final Solution is [redacted for horrific and violent content].

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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt

They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

1: Unless you greatly outweigh them, you're going to outnumber a Clan force, a fact you can use to your advantage. You can mitigate bad initiative rolls, and if the Clanners are using Zellbrigen, at least some of your units will be able to move around the map unmolested.

1a: If the Clanners are using Zellbrigen, it is often in your best interest to do so as well, at least up to the point that breaking it means you'll be delivering a knockout blow to a large portion of their force.

2: Despite their advantages, there are plenty of things available to the IS that the Clans either don't get, can't use, or don't like to use, such as conventional infantry/vees, C3, various ammo types, etc. If the Clan player is used to fighting other Clan forces, they may not be well versed in countering this stuff and it could throw them for a loop.

3: Infernoes. Look at the really popular Clan Omnis from 3050, and note how many of the more commonly used configs run hot, or at least right to the edge of their heat sinks. A solid bath of Inferno gel likely won't kill anything(aside from battlesuits), but if you can spike a Mad Cat or Masakari's heat scale at the right time(say, in the act of breaking zell), you can take some of the pressure off your troops.

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"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!" -Neko Bijin"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - PaulThere's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

If you're not a Horse, they're completely outside Zell. You could have an entire Trinary focus fire on a single particularly annoying Savannah Master, and they'd be completely within the letter of the law. Same goes for conventional infantry.

If you were wondering why front-line Omni configs carry TAG, this is likely it. Kill those annoying not-really-warriors quickly, so you can get back to the interesting bits.

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"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!" -Neko Bijin"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - PaulThere's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Send in the weaker warriors first. Good rule of thumb: If a warrior asks for money on your first meeting, front line. If they hijack conversations to rant about their political views, front line. If they ask the female warriors for pictures of their boobs, front line.

Once they are focused on the weak warriors, commit to the Final Solution. The Final Solution is [redacted for horrific and violent content].

While expecting Lance F to fight, rather than hide in the corner playing bejeweled I assume?

3: Infernoes. Look at the really popular Clan Omnis from 3050, and note how many of the more commonly used configs run hot, or at least right to the edge of their heat sinks. A solid bath of Inferno gel likely won't kill anything(aside from battlesuits), but if you can spike a Mad Cat or Masakari's heat scale at the right time(say, in the act of breaking zell), you can take some of the pressure off your troops.

While expecting Lance F to fight, rather than hide in the corner playing bejeweled I assume?

That abridged series cracks me up.

Indeed. They would qualify for the front lines if we could somehow get Bejeweled off their mech's computers. Heck, they should probably be Dispossessed an made to coordinate artillery fire with the PBI. And if they start talking to Jesus under their breath, better nip that boy in the bud.

Could you imagine Something Witty doing an abridged Battletech series?

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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt

They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Just because no one's mentioned it yet: IS 'zombie' mechs (ie. with energy weapons, standard engines and good armour) can be useful against clantech. Especially if 'zell is in effect. Let their mechs concentrate on particularly hard to kill mechs while you position your other units for a killing blow.

Very true. In any remotely balanced game, a Spheroid force is going to have a lot more total armor and structure points than a Clan force, even if those points are spread across many units. It's a perfectly valid strategy to force-feed so many such points into the maw of Clan firepower that they choke on them, unable to kill things fast enough to prevent being overwhelmed.

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"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!" -Neko Bijin"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler"The BT universe is startlingly deficient in both wisdom and hindsight." - Cray"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - PaulThere's no shame in designing customs, so long as you keep them private and wash your hands afterwards.

Understanding how to use and abuse Zell is obviously helpful. A good one is to pair off tough zombies with the clan mechs and then use the time it takes for them to kill them to get your lighter armoured but more heavily gunned mechs into position. The moment your zombie goes down, you ideally want your over gunned beast to be at optimal range to challenge and to let fly.

« Last Edit: 08 August 2018, 21:09:02 by Getz »

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I fell out of favour with heaven somewhere, so I'm here for the hell of it now...

(1) It seems to me like the light weight class of IS units is pretty doomed against the Clans, due to the ease of hitting fast-moving units with Clan pulse lasers. So if an IS player wants fast units, they should probably choose fast mediums or heavies rather than light units that rely mainly on speed for defense. Does that sound right?

(2) Should you take as many long-range weapons as possible? Or give up on the long-range game and just try to close in to short range and fight the battle there?

(3) What about if you're trying to take on the Clans with 3025 tech?

(4) Just in general: what works against the Clans given their many advantages?

From someone who plays from a war-gaming perspective-

Addressing them in order of effect . . .

#4- Realize what your advantages are in any engagement against a pure Clan mech force- you will have numbers, armor & internals (mass) as well as overall/total firepower while the Clan player has speed, range, survivability and harder hitting weapons. The IS player also has a better combined arms option, especially when BA come into play for the IS. You also need to realize the Russian saying, 'Quantity has a quality all its own,' which means you will most likely outnumber the Clan player in mechs let alone total units- and use that advantage knowing you will lose equipment. Repeat after me, you will lose equipment. While the Clan force should have a speed advantage, you should still be able to pin them against some terrain feature on the map (besides the edge) since unless they mount JJs they do not have the speed to cross water, elevations or woods that quickly and still maintain LOS for engaging.

As a Clan player I always wanted the largest maps with the least restricting terrtain- no cliffs, 4 hex wide rivers, or great blocks of forest (3 or 4 hex wide, 10+ hexes long). I would run across the map with my Timberwolf Prime & E, Gargoyle Prime & D, Stormcrow Prime, Adder B & D, Ice Ferret A or anything else armed with long range weapons & speed. They would also be the mechs carrying Elementals. I would arrange my last move to put me behind a L1 hill or in woods at 22-25 hexes and drop the Elementals- hill was the best since I played on servers that had DB on, the IS player lost track of Elementals that way. And then my cavalry units would walk backwards firing the cERLL, cERPPC, LRMs, ATMs w/ER rounds and LB-5X at the most exposed enemies . . . be it a Caeser 4S, Catapult or other long ranged design that packed a punch but had the weakest armor- typically a IS XL design. The Gargoyle Prime would specifically try to plink any armor in opposing forces. Best luck I had with that set up was a Timberwolf E hitting a Caeser 4S at 27 hexes, getting a TAC on the HGR- electric explosion, and the mech dies without firing a shot. Backing up they would eventually rejoin any of the slower designs which had moved forward at their 4/6 pace- Nova Cat Prime & A, Warhawk A, Guillotine IIC, Orion IIC, etc. Those mechs would have been parked in woods waiting for the IS to 'chase' the cavalry units into range, and angled so they could also start walking backwards & get their +1 mod w/o problems. If I had artillery I would also be dropping that in front of the wave of IS machines plodding after me.

With that description of my ideal sort of fight as a Clan player . . . how to counter it specifically? Combined Arms. Armor filling the fire support (Gauss & LRM) and cavalry (Harasser, Regulator, Fulcrum) roles, artillery to drop rounds behind retreating Clan forces and into woods that would provide cover- or to drop smoke to obscure LOS, ASF/CF bombing runs of inferno & RLs, VTOLs flanking & sniping, BA to protect your flanks and deal with any Elementals dropped off in your advance.

#3- 3025 tech during the Invasion is just going to increase your numerical advantage and require pushing into terrain . . . the one other thing I would say here is if you CAN score some NARC beacons, then you can drastically increase your force's throw weight by loading your LRM & SRM equipped units with NARC ammo. The problem is a dearth of NARC launcher equipped cavalry units in 3050. Additionally, IMO you will want artillery vehicles on the board- things like the TAV & L1 Marksmen . . . it will clear out BA nests, hit sniper points and help herd the Clan forces.

#1- The old 3025 lights, yes they are moths in the flame if you get around the wrong type of mech . . . for example, no light mech ( or most mediums) should ever be within 20 hexes of a Rifleman IIC that does not have something else it will be shooting at as a absolute priority. A old Stinger or Wasp against Clan forces? Sure if I have to, but you are pretty much asking it to be scrapped when its fired at by something as a afterthought. Commando, Javelin or Locust? I can run them in as a backstabber under the proper circumstances but I still expect it to die most of the time- its a One Shot mech!

#2- Long range weapons are good, but remember yours are going to typically weigh more, have less range and not hit as hard. Your ideal range is going to be mid or close- places AC/10s, old PPCs, old Large Lasers, ERML, MLs and SSRM & SRM start hitting. Your weight of numbers will start taking affect at those ranges as you start getting more hits and from more directions.

Zell rules . . . remember the Clan pilot MAY challenge more than 1 opposing unit, and the reaction to armor/VTOLs/BA will depend on warrior/unit/Clan. And depending on the Honor Code rules the Clan player is following, if you started moving unengaged mechs or armor around behind my forces I would take that as aggressive action- it would edge you closer to being declared dezgra & open shooting. Clan players have debated what unengaged mechs can do or not do . . . can they provide a ECM bubble? What about sitting in woods hex to keep an enemy dueler from using them? What about shooting at woods to clear them? What about maintaining LOS on a enemy to allow a engaged ally to stalk their opponent from out of LOS in DB? Just what constitutes interfering in the duel?

Questionable behavior demonstrating you do not intend to honor zell can invite the Clan player to drop dueling before you are in position to exploit it.

1. Don't play on infinite maps.2. Crush them with massive amounts of 4/5 Heavy/Assault mechs.

Seriously, your 0 gunner Warhawk is as much BV as an entire lance of Warhammers.

Run forward every turn looking for cover, then when you are close to it, walk & fire short range firepower & possibly add a Kick or 2 each turn if you can get close enough.

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3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers 3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Not really, as 16 out of 17 Clans consider vehicles to be outside of strict dueling, and eligible for group fire no matter what's going on.Likewise, 17 out of 17 Clans consider BA Points to be eligible for zell.

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And depending on the Honor Code rules the Clan player is following, if you started moving unengaged mechs or armor around behind my forces I would take that as aggressive action- it would edge you closer to being declared dezgra & open shooting.

While the intent is clearly duplicitous, absolutely nothing in the written zell rules would help you with this.

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Clan players have debated what unengaged mechs can do or not do . . . can they provide a ECM bubble?

No, that very clearly interferes with another duel. No legitimate case to the contrary can be made.

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What about sitting in woods hex to keep an enemy dueler from using them?

If you're not in a duel, you have no business being inside the Circle of Equals.

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What about shooting at woods to clear them?

If you're not in a duel, you have no business tampering with a Circle of Equals.

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What about maintaining LOS on a enemy to allow a engaged ally to stalk their opponent from out of LOS in DB?

That's just as blatantly violating a duel as the ECM use, with no credible case possible to defend it.

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Questionable behavior demonstrating you do not intend to honor zell can invite the Clan player to drop dueling before you are in position to exploit it.

I partially concur with that notion, save that the notion of zell as an RP element is entirely about what the *Clan* player considers the proper way to fight. You fight honorably because of how it reflects on you. You do not stop fighting honorably just because your enemy is a duplicitous scumbag. You might stop fighting honorably when your enemy is worthy of absolutely no regard at all, and is merely subhuman vermin that needs to be executed for the greater good.

And it's not like it's hard for the IS to understand. "I challenge XYZ to a duel, in this solemn matter, let no one interfere."- "OK, so can I do ABC?""Does it interfere in some way?"- "Yes, that's why I'm doing it.""Well, then no, you can't do ABC. Duh."

Perhaps I should have differentiated between a called duel that had a formal circle vs Invasion era where 'We will fight you on the plains of blablablah.' The what abouts I was giving was more for open field battles. To sort of address in order . . .

IMO the Bear Phalanxes, particularly after Aleksandr Jorgenson won his bloodname, would treat ComStar tanks as equals for the points to duel. A tank unit fighting another tank unit or a mixed like ComStar L2s would try to hold to the standard since the tankers are also trying to build rep. We have also had instances where Elementals indiscriminately involved themselves in mechs dueling- I want to say one of the early examples was fiction for Falcons on Tukayyid.

IS forces creeping behind Clan mechs engaged in duels comment was again, about open field battles rather than formal circles. I would also say it depends on how blatant it might be and if you are using dezgra points. Level 1 honor rules would of course ignore it but Level 3 is a lot more flexible.

ECM? So in a open field battle if I put a enemy's LOS through one of my starmate's ECM bubble, and that star mate is engaged in a duel as well . . . does it interfere or is that using terrain/advantages?

Again open field battle, if I am unengaged but I have run in close and spend my time waiting sitting in heavy woods that could be used by either side during their individual duels?

LOS/DB applies to both above scenarios above as well.

Finally, as said earlier if Level 1 (most Clans early invasion) then yeah . . . RP-wise I should ignore it and squawk like a Falcon with indignant outrage when the IS violates my rules. If its later in the 3050s or 3060s and the faction is running with mostly Level 3 honor rules? Well . . .

I believe that there's a weird rule about everyone having to have at least one opponent once the dueling starts, so you can't challenge extra opponents so that someone on your side doesn't have someone to shoot at, which I think can be manipulated such that they have to allow dog-piling.

1. Don't play on infinite maps.2. Crush them with massive amounts of 4/5 Heavy/Assault mechs.

Seriously, your 0 gunner Warhawk is as much BV as an entire lance of Warhammers.

Run forward every turn looking for cover, then when you are close to it, walk & fire short range firepower & possibly add a Kick or 2 each turn if you can get close enough.

actually it is not wise to rely on this.. a good clan player can easily exploit terrain to engage your force piece meal, especially given the clan mechs will have a mobility advantage over most IS heavies and assaults.

Which isnt that helpful, as this thread seems to be about gameplay, not the strange inconsistencies we see in the novels.

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IMO the Bear Phalanxes, particularly after Aleksandr Jorgenson won his bloodname, would treat ComStar tanks as equals for the points to duel.

I don't share that opinion. Even then, it's such a tiny edgecase, as to not be helpful as a guideline for a player.

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A tank unit fighting another tank unit or a mixed like ComStar L2s would try to hold to the standard since the tankers are also trying to build rep.

No.

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We have also had instances where Elementals indiscriminately involved themselves in mechs dueling- I want to say one of the early examples was fiction for Falcons on Tukayyid.

Fiction <> rules/gameplay.

There is no vehicle to copy the BA behavior in the novels and zell rules. There is no fluff concept in the sourcebooks to explain it neither. IMO, what you see in the novels is a logical execution of a poorly thought-out concept: FASA screwed up the rollout of Clan honor and how it affects the game so severely, that it actively contributes to people hating anything after 3050.

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IS forces creeping behind Clan mechs engaged in duels comment was again, about open field battles rather than formal circles. I would also say it depends on how blatant it might be and if you are using dezgra points.

Then you're mixing concepts.Either we're talking a game on maps, or we're talking a fluffy concept. Can't do both.

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Level 1 honor rules would of course ignore it but Level 3 is a lot more flexible.

How? What part of the Level 3 honor rules describe this?

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ECM? So in a open field battle if I put a enemy's LOS through one of my starmate's ECM bubble, and that star mate is engaged in a duel as well . . . does it interfere or is that using terrain/advantages?

It interferes. And you shouldn't be close enough for your ECM to be a factor. Fluff is at least pretty good about people not engaged in a duel waiting at a distance.

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Again open field battle, if I am unengaged but I have run in close and spend my time waiting sitting in heavy woods that could be used by either side during their individual duels?

I believe that there's a weird rule about everyone having to have at least one opponent once the dueling starts, so you can't challenge extra opponents so that someone on your side doesn't have someone to shoot at, which I think can be manipulated such that they have to allow dog-piling.

I believe that there's a weird rule about everyone having to have at least one opponent once the dueling starts, so you can't challenge extra opponents so that someone on your side doesn't have someone to shoot at, which I think can be manipulated such that they have to allow dog-piling.

That's entirely up to specifics of the trial and what is declared for its use (assuming one doesn't break their bid). Anyone can declare they want to duel 2 (or more) opponents if they choose. This is overwhelmingly a bad idea universally, but it can happen. Conversely, it is quite possible that one side, if it outnumbers the other, would have others sitting on the sidelines based on terms of the trial. There is an example of the later in the Tukayyid scenario book where Focht's bunker was almost discovered by a recon star. Had they found them, he would have demanded a trial where his company of heavy and assault mechs would have dueled largely lights and mediums where they likely would have been grind to paste. The Star Captain certainly could have just signaled his higher ups and/or booked it, but most Clanners don't think that way and would have gladly been pasted in the name of individual honor.

Exactly the same as the strategy for fighting anyone else (it's a very general question so you get a very general answer)

Understand the theatre of battle.

Understand their force

Understand your force

Come up with a strategy that maximises your advantages and minimises theirs.

As a general rule clan disadvantages against IS are - Expensive - you will likely outnumber/outweigh your opponents significantly - at least in a BV balanced matchup - Honorable - you may be able to take advantage of their rules of war. (depending on how much RP is in your game)

Their main advantages are - Overwhelming firepower - Clan mechs have huge firepower advantage over IS mechs, especially at long range - Speed - Clan mechs tend to be faster, for their size, as they can fit the efficient clan XL engine - this does not apply to all clan mechs but many of the most dangerous ones - Pilots - Clan pilots tend to be better (although this reflects in their BV when BV balanced)

It's very plausible for a clan front line star (5 mechs) to go up against an IS regular company (12 mechs) with roughly equal weight distribution, so every clan mech has to account for at least 2 IS mechs of roughly equal weight. Whilst a Timber Wolf Prime will have a laughably easy time against a DRG-1N - the BV balance point comes out close to 3 against 1 and the Dragons can match the Timber Wolf for speed, so either it has to turn it's back or the range can be closed

Sure a clan pulse boat will massacre lights at a frightening rate but how will a linebacker Prime stand up against say 3 Jenner 7F that are making themselves hard to hit as they slash into close range - all the while that Timber Wolf S has been challenged by an AWS-8Q who is stoically not breaking zell and accepting the relatively light throw weight (compared to the prime) for as long as he can while the rest of the company ensures his sacrifice is repaid by the rest of the star - hell, he may land a few lucky hits and leave the Timber Wolf as easy prey for a crit seeker.

Unless we are talking about specific duels, for instance the recent one in the Anvil between Roderick & Stephanie or to go further back to the Great Refusal Vlad vs Kai, then its 'open field battles' where a IS force encounters a Clan force. For instance during the Falcon's first Coventry, campaign where the Falcons would rotate in clusters of new sibkos to blood them, so when Falcon stars ran into a IS Company if they went to dueling (which depended IIRC) then if there was a Shadow Cat B was in the Falcon force its star mates would have to keep 6 hexes away to avoid using the ECM bubble?

I do not think so, the friendly ECM bubble is part of the battlefield terrain.

It WOULD be a violation of a Trial if say someone had charged into Roderick & Stephanie's trial to put Roderick in a ECM bubble- but if there was a battle ready IS mech (or Clan) that formed the Circle as invited, then its ECM bubble would be terrain in that circle just as any woods or building.