For the past 100 years, the Anti-Caste brigade has been so far having a Monopoly in the intellectual dis-course, repeating the same propoganda and ensuring that there is no opposition. But now, they are being effectively challenged, and clearly the anti-caste brigade has been facing the heat, unable to answer the key questions put forth. The debates in my previous articles are an example.

On these lines, i am going to put forth my next powerful argument, and let me see how the anti-caste proponents are answering this.

The main accusation against caste system is that it oppresses lower caste people, discriminates them by birth, and hence in order to establish equality, we have to destroy caste system by promoting inter-caste marriages and urbanisation.

But they have not been able to answer the question, whether the equality they advocated exists in the urban centers. The Obvious answer is NO. While the urban society may NOT have castes, the inequality and discrimination is more acute in the form of CLASS system, where the entire society is divided in to Upper, Middle and Lower CLASS based on Money. Their Utopian notion of equality is nailed by this very segregation of people based on money.

The anti-caste brigade may claim that people are NOT discriminated by birth. But they conveniently hide the truth that people are discriminated based on Money. Most of the key resources in Urban Centers are reserved ONLY for those who have money, while the poor is languishing in the inhuman slums. The Middle class is in a pathetic state, because they could not join either side.

And does equality exists within each of these class? For eg, the Middle CLASS is again divided based on money, as LOWER Middle class and Upper Middle class. So as upper and lower class also divided in to sub-divisions based on money.

This is more evil and discriminative than caste system. Atleast in caste system, all people within the same caste are equal by birth which is very rational and positive aspect. We can see this in the marriage. The most wealthy people have to attend the most poor people within the same caste, on an equal basis. Similarly, all people of the same caste have equal rights in their kula temple, irrespective of the financial status.

So equality actually exists within caste system, whereas there is no equality possible in Urban Class system. This is grave Social and Economic Injustice.

So using the same argument of anti-caste brigades, now let us call for establishing equality within the urban class system, before they can advocate it to caste system. And as part of this, they should first enact a law that all upper CLASS people should compulsorily marry people of MIDDLE CLASS and all Middle CLASS people should compulsorily marry people of LOWER CLASS. By this we can easily attain the utopian society based on equality. Are these anti-caste people ready?

One of their argument is that a lower CLASS person can work hard, earn money and enter in to the MIDDLE class or UPPER Class. My question is that suppose if a person from slum area, becomes rich, will a upper class person marry off their daughters to him. If yes, then why wait for the lower class people to become upper class to marry their daughter? If they marry their daughters to a poor guy, he will instantly become upper class by virtue of the marriage and the equality is attained. Right?

The caste system is based on birth and rigid, and hence its understandable they cannot do inter-caste marriage. But the urban CLASS system is highly fluid and dynamic, and what is going to prevent them from attaining equality, by Inter-CLASS marriage?

Will the anti-caste brigade, who forces inter-caste marriage, force an inter-CLASS marriage?

As a first step, we can ask all people belonging to Dravidar Kalagam and Communists to adopt this policy. what say?

PS:

The Hindu Intellectuals and supporters of caste system should understand the fact that we should NOT set the same benchmark our enemies are setting against us. If the anti-caste brigade makes allegations of discrimination based on birth, we should make our own benchmark of discrimination against them.

The Urban CLASS system is more oppressive and discriminative than our caste system, because the upper and middle class is always exploiting the lower class people.

387 Responses to Inter-Caste Marriage Vs Inter-CLASS Marriage

Benchmark 1 :
If a woman marries after puberty, she is unchaste.. The later she marries the more unchaste she is. Urban class system promotes late marriage, and thereby sexually abuses women. Its master plan is to make women into whores. Just look at the advertisements.

These kind of benchmark will be used against us, as something abuse.. we should not give in to such traps..

on the other hand, we should set the benchmark like this.. By forcefully raising the marriage age, the government is denying the sexual rights of the girls and boys.. because, a girl attains puberty at 14-15th year, which means, she would be having sexual feelings which she/he could not fulfill legally.. This leads to sexual suppression of teenagers.. the government allows pornography, obscenity in bollywood films that induces sexual feelings, but expects the teenagers to control their desires..

The Liberals project late marriage as freedom.. whereas we should project this as sexual oppression of women, that forces immorality among population..

Few months back, the Khap panchayat had effectively put forth this argument, which the English Media was unable to answer..

//on the other hand, we should set the benchmark like this.. By forcefully raising the marriage age, the government is denying the sexual rights of the girls and boys.. because, a girl attains puberty at 14-15th year, which means, she would be having sexual feelings which she/he could not fulfill legally.. This leads to sexual suppression of teenagers.. the government allows pornography, obscenity in bollywood films that induces sexual feelings, but expects the teenagers to control their desires..//

Senthil – It’s pretty dangerous to argue this way. If you call sex as a fundamental right, then there will be no place for marriage and it will indeed be seen as an impediment to free sex. What will you do if our teenagers question like this “why should one marry to have sex”? Also you might see activists come up with right for sex without marriage and our teenagers will be double delighted to accept it. Today even our courts have started to accept sex before marriage as legal as long as the either party is not forced and they are above eighteen. This is exactly what’s happening in majority of countries in Europe today. Their, they were successful in reducing deprivation of sex by making prostitution legal. We should not give an impression that marriages are done only for venting out sexual desires. Sex is just one element of it. There is much more to it beyond that. But I wholeheartedly agree with you that the minimum age for marriage should be reduced significantly than what it is today. The point here is that the emphasis should rely in creating families and marriages are social institutions that help create them. By focusing on sex we would just be deviating from the core argument.

//My question is that suppose if a person from slum area, becomes rich, will a upper class person marry off their daughters to him. If yes, then why wait for the lower class people to become upper class to marry their daughter? If they marry their daughters to a poor guy, he will instantly become upper class by virtue of the marriage and the equality is attained. Right?//

This is a bad argument again. You’ll be easily defeated on this. The activists are actually advocating for this too. They keep saying that money should not come in the way of marriages. By the way let’s not bring in the DK folks here. They’ve long lost their credibility. Let’s take on the average activists who do not have any vested interest like that of the DK or the communists. The sheer problem here is propaganda of material equality which stems from hard core communism which again stems from Abrahamism. It is this that we need to target and not waste our time by comparing the likes of urban institutions.

I did not argue for free sex.. rather i argued that the forced delay of marriage up to 18, and 21, suppresses the sexual rights of the teenagers.. marriage is NOT about sex alone, but it is one of the most important social process where sex is made divine..

One of the principle aspects of dharma is NOT to go against the nature… sex is one aspect of nature that should not be suppressed..

/** They keep saying that money should not come in the way of marriages. **/

That’s what i am also saying.. if money should NOT come in way of marriages, then why NOT they marry a slum boy or girl? When all upper class people marries a slum people, the equality can be easily achieved.. right?

//That’s what i am also saying.. if money should NOT come in way of marriages, then why NOT they marry a slum boy or girl? When all upper class people marries a slum people, the equality can be easily achieved.. right?//

The question is that the activists are already for it. What will you do if the urbans change their mindset such that they are ready to marry even slum people? If they do will you then justify inter-caste marriage between a rich and a slum guy? This is why I’m saying that comparing urban institutions with traditional caste system is futile. Just because the urbans are doing something doesn’t mean we need to follow it. We simply cannot compromise on intra-caste marriages, come what may.

/** The question is that the activists are already for it. What will you do if the urbans change their mindset such that they are ready to marry even slum people?
**/

You are imagining too much.. That is impossible, and unfeasible.. and that’s why i am making this bold public challenge.. I will not end up with Just one or two marriages.. Let them establish the equality in their urban centers, and we will take a position when that situation is reached..

I understand.. and i agree.. but when we taken on the enemy, we have to use their weak points.. Dont worry for now.. Instead of we debating about this topic, lets wait for anti-caste brigades to present their views.. please wait for those interesting moments..

Without mentioning “sexual freedom” or any of that, people can speak of the honestly-paramount and imperative *right* of young native women [and men] to form stable families (that is, to marry and consequently have children) on their own timetable, instead of in the timetable that the state forces on them. The truth is that the so-called ‘Indian’ government, which works according to foreign laws and desires, and in tandem with socially-engineered “activists”, deny this right of native Hindu women to pursue what is a natural objective of theirs in their own timeframe.

You can even hear an increasing number of western voices arguing for the same basic rights, as the west is slowly coming full circle on yet another matter:

Hilary Mantel, the prize-winning author, has opened up a public debate over teenage sex by claiming that girls are ready to have babies when they are 14 years-old.

The 57-year-old novelist said that society ran on a “male timetable” which dictated that women should have babies at an older age.
“Having sex and having babies is what young women are about, and their instincts are suppressed in the interests of society’s timetable,” she said.
“I think it is that men’s lives have set the timetable. Men reach a sort of sexual peak when you are 20, a social peak when you are 40.
“There is this breed of women for whom society’s timetable is completely wrong.”
Mantel, who won the Man Booker Prize last year for her novel Wolf Hall, said that society was “incredibly hypocritical” about teenage sex and teenagers having babies.
“I was perfectly capable of setting up and running a home when I was 14, and if, say, it had been ordered differently, I might have thought ‘Now is the time to have a couple of children and when I am 30 I will go back and I’ll get my PhD,'” she said.
“But society isn’t yet ordered with that kind of flexibility,” she said in an interview in today’s Stella magazine.
“We were being educated well into our twenties, an age when part of us wanted to become mothers, probably little bits of all of us. Some were more driven than others.”
Last night the writer’s views met with a mixed response amid growing concern that Britain still has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in western Europe, despite a 10-year Government campaign to lower the figures.

…
However, there was support for Mantel from Dr Claire Alexander, editor of a study, Teenage Parenthood: What’s the Problem?, published this month.
Dr Alexander, of the London School of Economics, said teenage pregnancy could be a force for good since many young mothers were motivated to turn their lives around to provide for their children.
“Young parenthood can make sense and be valued and can even provide an impetus for teenage mothers and fathers to strive to provide a better life for their children,” she said.

…
Last week it emerged that the Government had failed to reach its target of halving the number of teenage pregnancies within 10 years. … The Government promised last week to expand sex education and promote contraception, including condom vending machines in colleges and schools.

Mantel, who was born in Derbyshire, was left unable to have children after suffering from a debilitating and painful illness during her twenties.

It was eventually diagnosed as a severe form of endometriosis and the author is now patron of the Endometriosis SHE Trust.

The novelist, who was awarded a CBE in 2006, said that women should be able to choose whether to have children when they are teenagers or pursue a career and have children later in life.

“If there were some paradise for women both those models would be valid,” she said.
++++

In the west, western governments discourage teenage pregnancies not for any concern about how ready the individuals are to become mothers, but solely because high numbers of single mothers with babies means the government needs to expend a lot more money on social welfare. The issue is called “teenage” pregnancies and they are considered a problem because it results in government expenditure/increased tax payers’ money to social welfare. If the west was witnessing teenage marriages and the rise of young families which were financially and otherwise supported by their own parents (as happens in Bharatam), the same would not be considered a problem in the west because western governments approve of an increase in their dwindling native population as long as this is coupled with a decrease in the calls on the govt’s own purse to support these.

In the non-west, and most particularly in India and Africa, western governments have totally different reasoning for altering societal patterns: for population control. So the problem is not unwed mothers (and hence not called “teenage” pregnancies), but the issue is declared to be “child” marriage and so marriage itself is demonised by controlled governments and socially engineered activists for the cause, even though teens quite willing to be married and start a family are often targeted.

From reading some literature produced by UN/UNESCO organisations which are foisted as policies on the “third world”, it becomes immediately apparent that their real goal in promoting “equal rights” to ensure more women at full-time work is not because they actually care about women having equal rights and wages in the work place or equal access to higher education in order to acquire the same (although they will sell the idea under this heading to 3rd world activists who will blindly propagate the story on). Instead, it is simply to delay these women from starting families early and consequently having larger families. It is to break native traditions of early families. They admit they want to increase the age of marriage and of child rearing by increasing women in the work force and the age of education for both genders, and thereby decrease the “world” population, by which they particularly mean the size of the “dark 3rd world” populations. It distresses them all the way in the first world UN that somewhere out there in the “3rd world”, communities would still be having many babies, and thus growing, and ‘disproportionately consuming resources’. After all, the “3rd world” is where you see the larger positive birth ratios owing to young, yet still stable families. In the west, the ratio is skewed and in many countries the ratio is negative, while stable families are on average older and therefore will have fewer children.

Western reasoning in promoting family planning type policies (population control policies) in the 3rd world is in its intentions quite at another end of the scale to the intentions behind the west discouraging teenage pregnancies in their own countries.

The fact is, foreign policies uses the same flowery slogans of long-term education for all children and “gender equality” but have different motivations when it comes to “3rd world” women and children than where it concerns their own people. Yet the eager Indian activists working for their purpose at ground level really imagine that they are part of some emancipated, progressive movement trying to haul India out from alleged regression, when all they do is play into the hands of other people seeking to control “3rd world” populations and dictate and debilitate their life-cycles. Colonisation is more invisible nowadays, but it’s still there.

The west knows they can’t control islamic countries in this manner, but that they can control christian converts in the 3rd world very easily (at least where the Vatican doesn’t interfere with its own agenda of increasing its numbers), and they know that with the help of social engineering and activism and governmental leveraging, they can also easily get all the rest of the world to fall in line.

The brahmin community has been one of the dirty communities which has planned strategically to fool people in the name of god by generating the highest donations in the temple, doing business to fool and loot money in the name of puja, death, marriage, new home… For any occasion, there’s one puja. They charge very high prices and take away all the items after the puja. They have created prostitution in the name of devadasis. They suppress jobs and employment and welfare and equality are destroyed. they have destroyed the Indian medical system. They have killed Indian medical science like siddha vaidhyam and created ayurveda and carnatic music by destroying dravidian music. Even today they have the temples under their control. They say they don’t like untouchables, but they have always been sexually harassing low caste women.

We should be careful while setting benchmarks.. our benchmarks should NOT be abusive or demeaning to any one.. it should be purely argumental and intellectual..
On the other hand, we should find out if the benchmark of our enemy is abusive and if so, blow it out..

On a certain day, a group of humanity suddenly woke up from their sleep and found that they were wearing coats and pants.
They were wearing dhoti or probably nothing when they slept and no one complained. But this new coats that they got for free made them feel “renewed and upgraded”. SO they didnt want to remove this. Just like the karna kavacha, this over coat got stuck into their body and also into their minds.

These people went around the town and looked down upon others who do not have coats. they gained popularity and gained more voice in the society and finally declared that all those who do not wear coats are considered underprivilaged and are being oppressed.they picked the most respected class of people and called them as the oppressor.

They made it as a standard and prestige to Wear coats. They took movies where hero and heroine will be shown getting married wearing coats. They branded all people wearing dhoti as stone aged. They branded all people wearing nothing as uncivilized or barbaric. Per their new standards, They branded all women wearing nothing as being oppressed and declared that the male was exploiting the women.

A poor person can become rich. And a rich person can become poor. If not, there is hope for their children by sending them to school and getting a good education and a job. There’s hope. Caste is determined by birth. Even one thousand generations later, your descendants are still the same caste.

In other words, there is mobility and constant churning. Money has no favorites. That is the difference.

Later you ask “My question is that suppose if a person from slum area, becomes rich, will a upper class person marry off their daughters to him.”

From this question I don’t know how you define “class”. Money = Class according to you no?

In general no one should be forced to marry anyone. Or not to marry anyone else. So I’m not sure where your post is coming from in the first place. Is someone forcing people of different castes to marry?

Thats stupidity. You are asking for example “why cant brahmins buy lands of their own and form a agraharam”. May be the uprooted brahmins working in MNCs can do that. But the typical archakar type of brahmin who are into vaidheeham cannot afford to do this. All these years they have been living at the mercy of all other jaathis. But it has been portrayed as if they were controlling the whole society.

You need to self ponder instead of asking superficial question. Self pondering will answer lots of your questions and will skip too much detail in blog space discussions. Here we cannot drill down to lowerst level and spoonfeed every thought on to everyone. certain things are implicit and you have to spend time thinking and contemplating about it to understand instead of throwing superficial questions which has no deapth.

/** In other words, there is mobility and constant churning. Money has no favorites. That is the difference. **/
It is the money which is driving factor in this mobility.. and that’s what constitutes the grave injustice and discrimination.. You can never attain equality in this CLASS system..

Whereas, how much a person be rich in a caste, he is still equal by birth to the most poorest persons of the same caste..

As such, all yadavs are equal by birth, all chamars are equal by birth.. There are crores of yadavs in india and there is no other system in this world where equality exists among such large number of people..

In that way, my caste system is far far better than your urban systems..

/** From this question I don’t know how you define “class”. Money = Class according to you no? **/

It is the economic status that defines, upper, middle and lower CLASS.. is there any doubt about it?

/** In general no one should be forced to marry anyone. Or not to marry anyone else. So I’m not sure where your post is coming from in the first place. Is someone forcing people of different castes to marry?
**/

Yes.. dharmapuri incident in TN is one such.. the girl has been lured by the boy, and psychologically forced to marry him.. the entire dalit organisations in TN are involved in love jihad.. the communists has been calling for destruction of castes, and they employ inter-caste marriage as a tool..

Pls review the judgements of your judiciary related to this.. the sexual harassment in corporate sector is a perfect example of psychological force.. and seducing the minor girls to have sex is also a psychological force.. your own law says that if an adult had sex with a minor girl, even with her consent, it is to be considered a rape..

The main accusation against caste system is that it oppresses lower caste people, discriminates them by birth, and hence in order to establish equality,

Who said so.The main and foremost role of religion/varna is to subjugate women and creating a pyramid where everyone has someone below him to illtreat or discriminate except the one at the bottom.The main role of varna is subjugation of women and there has never been any taboo against men taking women from their varna/lower varnas and inspite of this being proved and repeated again and again we hear the same arguments of how endogamy existed.The restriction for marriage crossing varnas was only for women. The presence of thousands of castes are due to this intermingling anuloma marriages while pratiloma resulted in they being outcasted
Lets just take the case of women who have opted for intercaste marriage on getting jobs and education and the majority are from those who have been denied those freedom for being in top of the pyramid.Any study of employed women will show on how the ratio of employed women from any caste opting for marriage outside her caste outnumbers the men from their caste in percentage.

What ever accusation may be.. the challenge now before the urban people is to establish equality among themselves.. Let all doctors of hospitals marry off their sons and doctors to the hospital sweepers and toilet cleaners.. Let all CEOs of industries marry off their sons and daughters to the sons and daughters of watchman working in their company.. By this, they can easily eliminate economic inequality and economic discrimination..

Government quarters are levellers to an extent and quiet a bit of love marriages happen between children of officers and lowergrade employees who study in the same schools,play and pray in the same locality.
Parents have no role in the marriages of their adult children is the basic principle of anticaste people and your argument is funny and amusing where you want the parents to fix their marriages.I have repeated umpteen times that I am not against anyone marrying within caste or performing the occupation of his caste and anticaste supporters just support and ask for protection of adults who want to exihibit their choice when it comes to job or marriage crossing caste barriers

You are wrong.. there are separate government quarters for different grades of employees.. the bottom constables have different quarters with low quality, and the top officials have high class houses separately.. so there is very little chance for the sons of these officers to mingle with bottom level employees..

Similarly in urban centers, the rich people live in posh areas, and do not mingle with slum people.. and the rich people send their children to highly paid schools.. so there is no chance of them to study with slum boys..

So your utopian notion of parents having no role in children’s marriage is humbug.. the high class people live isolated, but you people dont have any issues with it.. but you dont give the same liberty for jathi people to live as a group separately..

Also I’ve noticed that you only talk about “high class” and “low class”. One of the distinguishing features of India and all civilized countries is the “middle class” – those who don’t live in posh areas, but don’t live in abject poverty either. The mobility from middle class to poverty and vice versa is quite high. As long as you only talk about two types of people like it was before the French revolution, you’re blinding yourself to reality.

Inter caste or interclass marriages doesnt happen by force and its only those who oppose them use force.Supporters of intercaste marriages doesnt enter houses forcibly and marry two people from different castes and the maximum they do is support a couple who want to marry crossing caste lines.
@Senthil creates a imaginary nonexistent situation of forcible intercaste marriages without the consent of the two getting married.Its the procaste lobby which tries to prevent the union of two consenting adults and not the otherway around
Sexual feelings exist for widows too.Are the procaste supporters for widow remarriage inspite of their religious gurus deriding them.Delayed fulfilment of sexuual urges due to late marriages is anyday better than the golden days of last century and before where child widows where in lakhs with no chances of fulfilling their sexual needs.

Choice of the individual is the main issue and many trade unions have happily helped in the marriage between officers and lowergrade employees or permanent employees and contract employees(interclass)and its rare to see a interclass marriage within the samecaste marriage organised by the family.
Chances of a doctor or IAS or driver marrying a receptionist or nurse(interclass marriage) is several times higher in love marriages than a traditional arranged marriage where financial status is the foremost criteria which is relaxed only when its second marriage for the male,large age gap,person with diseases,disability,addiction etc and women with disability have little chance in a caste dictated marriage

/** Supporters of intercaste marriages doesnt enter houses forcibly and marry two people from different castes and the maximum they do is support a couple who want to marry crossing caste lines.
**/

There are many kind of rapes.. to kidnap a girl and forcibly rape her.. or else, to blackmail her psychologically so that she will herself submit to the rapist.. and the third way is to seduce her by various means, and rape her with her full co-operation..

Your Inter-Caste supporters are employing all kind of techniques listed above.. so just bcoz they dont forcefully conduct marriage, doesnt mean they are right..

If someone tells a girl “Marry me or I will commit suicide”..guess what? She should just walk away and let the loser kill himself. Many women have done this. By definition the word force means “no choice”. And if women have walked away in the past, it proves that they have choice. Hence it’s not rape.

For the record, if my parents try and blackmail me saying “Marry whom we want or we’ll commit suicide”, I will let them die as well. I have a choice. As long as there’s choice, there’s no question of “force” and no question of “rape”.

I think we’re not speaking the same language. Rape has a very specific meaning – the use of physical force or the threat of death or harm to loved ones or blackmail or impersonation, or invalid consent with a minor or when the woman was drugged/drunk etc.

If you want to use the word “rape” for a made up definition like “psychological forcing”, then that’s your choice. But then you’re not speaking english. You’re making up your own language and your own definitions of words. Just keep that in mind.

/** Choice of the individual is the main issue and many trade unions have happily helped in the marriage between officers and lowergrade employees or permanent employees and contract employees(interclass)and its rare to see a interclass marriage within the samecaste marriage organised by the family.
**/

You should not just argue based on your imaginations.. how many upper and middle class people had married the slum people? pls answer this..

and why dont you people call for movement of abolishing economic inequality by advocating inter-CLASS marriages..

Why not your urban government take pro-active steps to make high class people live along with slum people.. you can make a rule that a high class bungalow should be accompanies by certain number of low class houses.. by this you can establish equality, enable both people to mingle together..

If you dont want to interfere in their elite life, then you should not interfere in the caste setup also..

If a dalit working in a upper caste person’s farm is oppression, then arent a lower class slum people, cleaning the toilets of upper class people, even more oppression? why take double standards?

Boss…this “high class” “low class” distinction is man made. These are not legal terms that you can make laws based on them. Everyone is equal in the eyes of the law. “Low class” persons have the same rights as everyone else. The same criminal law code applies to them. The same jail terms and sentencing rules apply to them.

I’m not sure what you want exactly. One moment you were talking about forcing people to fall in love and marry. Now you’re suddenly talking about bungalows without any apparent connection and logic. I’m not able to keep up with your zig zagging.

What I don’t get is this…why don’t you…let…people…live…their…lives…the…way…they…want. Let them choose how they want to live. If all the dalits want to live together, let them buy land, create a village and live however they want. I assure you no one will arrest them.

/** Everyone is equal in the eyes of the law. “Low class” persons have the same rights as everyone else. The same criminal law code applies to them. The same jail terms and sentencing rules apply to them.
**/

Naked lies.. Your Law is an ASS.. its only some bunch of words in text book.. the implementation of law lies in court.. and does your judiciary treat everyone equally? How come wealthy people get instant bail for rape and murder and poor languishes in jail for rest of his life?

Come on dude.. you cannot cheat people based on empty propoganda..

and you did not answer this question.. the Elite class living in separate posh area, corner most of resources, using their money power, whereas slum people are pushed to inhabitable water clogged shallow areas.. this is worst kind of discrimination, exploitation and oppression? and you urban people never speak about this.. i bet, you yourself will be living in a posh area, employing a slum people to clean sewages, toilets and roads in your area..

“How come wealthy people get instant bail for rape and murder and poor languishes in jail for rest of his life?”

Ah, finally you’re talking sense. This is a real issue that we need to solve. It’s not that the law is bad. The problem is corruption and poor efficiency and competence. If we had enough judges and infrastructure this would not be a problem. Other civilized countries in the world treat their rich and poor much more equally. We have to learn from them and improve the infrastructure to deal with the population explosion.

This is a real concrete problem that we should have been talking about since this discussion started. Instead it took two days to finally get to it.

“i bet, you yourself will be living in a posh area, employing a slum people to clean sewages, toilets and roads in your area..”

You want to not employ people to clean the sewage lines? Or you want to employ them and not pay them? What..I don’t understand what your question is here.

Caste discriminates based on birth FOR DUTIES. Whereas Class discriminates based on birth for EVERYTHING. Once the 1st generation is into money the subsequent generations don’t let got of it, hook or crook. eg., Superstar’s daughters. They didn’t get married to up-and-coming bus drivers. Infact, in today’s cineworld its even hard to see one of a Low class background. ALL of them are well to do relative to the bus-driver background that Superstar had. & Eg. NRN’s son NRN has got his son into the “professional” company inspite of talking against it initially.

This is a valid point.. when the government says, that a son inherits the wealth of his father, then it is also a discrimination by birth.. when all people are born same, why should the child of a wealthy person be made rich by birth..

People who rejected england went to a land that is now called “USA”. They killed all the red indians and started settling there. They wanted to shed all their old european identities and wanted to start everything clean slate. The founding fathers of united states defined new set of laws, carefully and well planned (no question about that), defined new cultures, practice, functions and established the so called “american identity”.

In a nut shell

“External Invation ->destroy the existing societal model and people-> invaders to shed all old identities and history->create new identity”

In india, the anti caste brigaders are trying to do similar thing. Here we alreay have a working societal model call it varnaashrama dharma. all the anti caste brigaders work is to wipe out this model and start everything clean slate. Whats happening in india is a compulsive action due to the american peer pressure.

Anti caste brigaders are like the newly settled whites and are performing mass civilizational genocide. In case of america the whites did it. In india, indigeneous browns are doing it to themselves. how intelligent.

“Internal invation -> destroy existing social model (varnaahsrama dharma) and people -> brown invaders take control and shed all old identities and unconciously ape the west -> create a new utopian caste less identity.”

All indians can be physically and medically alive but they can begin to think that they are brown americans. They can sit in chennai and celebrate valentines day. they can ignore their parents but celebrate mothers day and fathers day. they can call themselves secular and can question the very presence of Ram and Krishna. They can wear jeans and shorts (nothing wrong) but mimic those who wear dhotis and sarees. They can think going to temple and having a spiritual path is foolish as there is only one life and that has to be party’ed with wine and bear.anyone who thinks eating pizza is a privilage and eating idlis is age old though nothing wrong in eating pizza. These are all the people who are medically alive and politically indian but civilizationally dead.

Like this there are many. In a nut sheel de-linking from indianness is the civilizational genocide that is happening. If you want to know what indinness is, then you need to spend some time and ponder before you write further.

All these are the effects of civilizational genocide that nothing indian is left is US. ALL OF US. there is very little indianness and people who talk about this are the one who wanted to embrace and grow that indiannes.

Actually to be happy and peaceful is a magnificent achievement for a human and requires much more than the circumstances that would make a dog or a cat happy. That’s because of the psychological differences in our makeup.

So we’re going to disagree. Being happy is all I care about. Even you – all your efforts are to achieve happiness. You find it in your own way. Let others find it in theirs.

I’m afraid it is you who is in the wrong land my friend. India is a land of Constitutional rights and liberties. A land of freedom. There are other countries like China, Pakistan, and Iran where liberties are curtailed for someone else’s sense of morality. The entire Islamic world is like that. India stands is stark opposition to those countries of oppression.

If you don’t want to be free then what do you want? You want to live in a world where you’re forced to live someone else’s lifestyle? Perhaps I think I know what you want. You want to live in a dictatorial country where you are the dictator isn’t that right? You don’t mind living in an oppressed state as long as you’re doing the oppressing and other have to do what you say!

It may surprise you to learn that the the purpose of my life (and other’s lives) is to be happy. No one cares about “Indianness” or whatever other benchmark you may wish to impose on others. If people want to by happy by eating pizzas, that’s perfectly alright. After all, I’m sure no one’s forcing you to eat pizzas right? You can live your live exactly the way you want to get the maximum amount of happiness. If someone is stopping you from going to temples or worshiping or speaking Sanskrit, then you have a legitimate right to complain as your fundamental rights are being violated.

“Genocide” has a very specific meaning. Namely the deliberate massacre of a large number of people. If you want to use it to describe some other phenomena then I’m afraid we’re not speaking the same language.

A dog lives peacefully. Cat lives more happily. It doesnt need a human body to be happy and peaceful. These are all basic things. To be happy and peacefull is not a great achievement for a human.

Its only values, ethics and culture that makes humans stand out of other mammals. bharat is the epirome of these ethics and has a vast amount of knowledge to seek internal and go beyond the physical. Anyone born in india aspires to attain this state within. It is this tradition that is getting rotten and is worth defending.

If not humans of future generations will not even be aware of such possibility and will think being happy is the objective of life. Just like you think.

your bar is set too low. So either you are in wrong blog or you are trying to pull others low to your benchmarks.

/*It may surprise you to learn that the the purpose of my life (and other’s lives) is to be happy*/

Living happyly is not the Z of life. Its the A of life. I wonder how you can say “others lives”. How can you take the right to talk for others?

/*I’m sure no one’s forcing you to eat pizzas right? */
NO one says “you should sit and cry” So?

/*If someone is stopping you from going to temples or worshiping or speaking Sanskrit, then you have a legitimate right to complain as your fundamental rights are being violated.*/

People will not only say “dont read sanskrit’. but they will say “why sanskrt. lets do pooja in tamil”. “tamizil pesum tamil kula vilakku vetru mozhiyil archanai edarku” rubbish.

in the name of individual freedom and rights, you people are talking rubbish. you are in wrong land and creating this vaccum of adhyathmic seeking and filling it with dumb secularism. such people are living in wrong land.

/** It may surprise you to learn that the the purpose of my life (and other’s lives) is to be happy **/

Every people are happy when they are with their family and relatives.. so a dalit person is happy when he is with his relations.. same way, an upper caste person is happy when he is with his own relatives..

Jathi based commune living ensured that everyone lives together with their relatives in the same colony / village / area.. and your urban anti-caste brigades have denied this most fundamental rights to the majority of populations..

/** What? How? Are you suggesting that if a group of people want to live together in a common village on their property that someone will send them to jail??
**/

They had destroyed the village administration and infrastructure.. they denied the right of one community to prevent other community in to their colony.. for eg, brahmins were denied their right to live their brahminic life in agraharams.. the temple which they dependen on for survival was taken over by govt and their endowments confiscated.. There are numerous such crimes committed by your urban india..

“they denied the right of one community to prevent other community in to their colony”

Is the colony public land? If so, no community has the right to prevent anyone else from entering it. But if the “community” wants to buy their own private property and not allow anyone they don’t like inside it that is perfectly legal. Is anyone stopping them?

“brahmins were denied their right to live their brahminic life in agraharams”

Whatever this “agraharams” is, why can’t the Brahmins just buy a plot of land and make a temple or anything they want? As for “endowments”, who is paying for these endowments? The tax payer?

@senthil reservations help people cross from slums to middleclass/highclass households and has done far more for marriages cutting across caste than any reformer or reformist group.Most anticaste supporters are strong supporters of reservation which breaks class barriers easily unlike the caste barriers.
@swamy sanskrit and vedas have done the same as americans as they wiped out the practises/gods existing before them and its really tiring to hear the bharat ,sanskrit was the best vedas are the ultimate and can never be changed(and this group makes fun of muhammed being the last messenger and his words can never be changed argument), again and again.The vedic missionaries after clearing,converting the pre exsiting groups and practises are now under jittery when threatened by similar groups and plead for closed clubs where birth alone determines caste/religion etc.God didnt select people residing between kanyakumari to kashmir to be hindus and afghan to europe as muslims or europe for christianity etc.

As a blog owner, you should channel the flow of discussion. If there is a question thrown at someone, they should answer it before they can digress to another topic. Day by day, we are repeating same topics. touching same discussions points again and again and its getting too repetitive. New people come in and go. bash, trash and accuse and go. like fools we shoot questions at them and try to justify. there is absolutely no progress in anyones stand or understanding. Its becoming intellectual shit day by day.

Beyond this, its up to you on how to handle your blog. I am drained reading same immature, superficial arguments from the anti-caste brigaders

/* New people come in and go. bash, trash and accuse and go. like fools we shoot questions at them and try to justify. there is absolutely no progress in anyones stand or understanding. Its becoming intellectual shit day by day. */

That’s because the other side is set in its own ways & we in ours. This tie can be broken when one side applies force. Currently its the anti-caste brigade which has the force, the greatest of all the GOVT’s. So unless traditionalists do the same, we will be decimated.

After listing to videos, I approached rajiv malhotra by writing him a direct email and asked him questions that i had in my mind.
He replied that the questions that i ask are already discussed in his yahoo blog space and he redirected me to his discussion group and said i have to spend time and effort reading and understanding those.
I was curious and expecting a reply from him but his reply put me off at first.
If it was some person with a weak base, he would have turned against raajiv and stopped following him. It just took few minutes for me to accept his reply and look from his perspective. Then i understood his stand.
If i wanted to learn or if i wanted to understand things, i have to put effort.
Superficial questions, hit and run comments and acusations are not going to take me anywhere. i will be in same place for ever. Weak people do that.

Senthil, The burden of understanding should be on the reader and not on the blogger which is you.
Rajivs blogs are also moderated. That doesnt mean he is influencing the discussions to his advantage. We do see all sort of commetns.
But all futile comments are trashed. YOu definitely have to do that due deligence. Anyone, anything repetitive. just dont post it.
In your mind you know what poovannan, india first or anyone has already told in any of your blogs. if any of the point is repetetive, just mark it as deleted or futile.
Just gathering bits and pieces of information anyone calls as blogger and free thinker. Thats rubbish. Please do some quality control.
I would say it would be fair on your part to do it as a blog owner. Let the readers raise their standards to reply at your blog.

LIke i mentioned before, reading 4 or 5 blog topics of yours should bring in the necessary understanding on indian society. If people has further questions, its OK. but if people are dead against, then it would mean they are “rigid” enough that they cant be worked on. Period.

Such people can be ignored at the best. why spend time and energy in justifying things to people who are not willing to open up?

/** Is the colony public land? If so, no community has the right to prevent anyone else from entering it. **/

The colony is the commune land, which people lived there for hundreds of years..

/** Whatever this “agraharams” is, why can’t the Brahmins just buy a plot of land and make a temple or anything they want?
**/

The brahmins were already living in their commune land.. pls answer why they were persecuted by your urban government , and why the temples were confiscated? Why was the village autonomy snatched from the local people..

The urban indians should be made accountable for the crimes they had committed for all these years..

You fail to understand the fact that majority of villagers vote for parties which preach equality,promises to eradicate untouchability,protect people who want to cross barriers of caste when it comes to jobs/education and marriage.There is no forced intermingling and brahmins who sell their houses in agraharams to others do it on their own free will and not under any compulsion.
This urban ,rural argument has little meaning as people from villages migrate voluntarily to cities and the same viceversa for people who want to enjoy the feudal or dharmic life.
For ex-The case against padmanabhapuram trustees was filed by a brahmin who had worked there as he felt that the management was swindling temple property.Majority of hindus support parties which are for a egalitarian temple and in a democracy you have to abide by their wishes

You are repeating the same dubious argument again and again.. and what @swamy says becomes true..

I had pointed to you how the government had forcefully taken temples from local villages, and how village autonomy was destroyed, and how traditional panchayat system was destroyed.. and i had pointed out how hundreds of villages were destroyed to expand your Chennai Metro.. and yet, you are repeating the same denial ..

So…who bought and paid for this so called “commune land”? In who’s name is it? Are there roads there? Electricity? Sewer systems? Or is it just the ground with nothing above or below it – a desert? Who supports it? If it is the taxpayer, then everyone has the right to use it.

Your urban indian government was established only in 1947.. the 6 lakh villages were existing before that.. your urban india had destroyed thousands of these villages and pushed those people to slums.. and you are NOT answering this point.. Unless you answer this, there is no use in random casual discussion..

Umm..let’s see. Someone born in 1947 would 66 years old now. And you’re referring to people who were already in middle age so they would have to be more than 100 years in 2013. Even allowing for your ridiculous claim of “community land”, everyone who lived there is now dead. Let their children go and buy new land for themselves. No more of this free loading laziness.

But dont you see that you are imposing your ideas and expecting us to follow? If you want the “buy land model” we should accept it as “time to move”. But if we emphasize on something that was traditional you argue “who stops you”.

@swami
Till now whatever @poovannan and @indian_first have been telling is logical in their own ways. Of course they at at many times write irritating comments, but they have improved with time. eg. @bhagvad will not write anymore that divorce is good.. Let them keep repeating; for a newbie it will be better. Truth will come out when seen from different perspectives.

There are 2 scenarios:
In the traditional scenario, an Upper Caste guy will not marry a Lower Caste girl.
In the current urban scenario, an Upper Class guy will not marry a lower class girl.
But the upper class guy can choose to marry the lower class girl, whereas in the former scenario that is not the case. “Society” forbids them to marry.
The difference is CHOICE.

//Will the anti-caste brigade, who forces inter-caste marriage//
Pray tell me, who on earth FORCES inter-caste marriage? They support it; it is upto the individuals to decide on whether to marry or not.

/** But the upper class guy can choose to marry the lower class girl, whereas in the former scenario that is not the case. “Society” forbids them to marry.
**/

Your question has already been answered.. In CLASS based society, the upper class people live separately and send their children to high class schools and colleges.. so your claim of choice is theoritical..

The question is NOT about individual choice.. but about the hypocritic stance of the anti-caste bashers, who claim to establish equality by destroying jathi..

Why NOT the anti-caste brigade focus on their own backyard and start establishing equality?

I’m beginning to see that most of the problems here are because people don’t understand the meaning of “force”. To them, providing support is “force”. To them, flirting with a girl and forming a relationship with her is also “force” and therefore rape!

I need not come and slap you to show i am applying force. THe very word is enough right. So senthil uses the words force and rape in similar context. These are just words. They take extended meanings based on context. but if you are a rigid “spell check” who can only work out of a pre defined dictionary, then again, you are limited.

Well! I suppose we might as well stop pretending that we’re speaking the same language. I’m speaking English. The strange new meanings you want to give to “force” and “rape” can be part of your own brand new branch of linguistics :D

/*Pray tell me, who on earth FORCES inter-caste marriage? They support it; it is upto the individuals to decide on whether to marry or not.
*/

Today not everyone can go on streets and just fight to establish some idealogies. The way is to use media. They will take movies that will showcase hero from a jaathi and heroine from another jaathi, they will show their love is divine. their parents and the villagers are villans and they fight to prove their love and then in climax they convince the village and their paretns and get married. Happy ending.

How many movies are like this? If you create movies like this for a decade in various flavours, you are infusing “soft forcing” your idea. This has created a whole bunch of impotent and confused youth who are against their dharma of their own land. Now it will server your urban colonial brown mans needs. So you support it too. It needs intelligence to look beyond the “softness of words”.

You are confused?? didnt i tell youth are confused?? hence proved. :):)

Confused what year? Traditionally we have a 60 year cycle. do you know that? how many youth knows that? how many youth knows what year this really is? they only know the english year. they only know the english 100 year cycle. they only know the millineum. they only know from BC 1500 and the ADs. they consider the rest as myth right? that itself is a symptom of confusion.

Are they confused over the shape of the earth?

They think they are the decedents of the people who thought the word was flat. So yes they are confused.

Are they confused over who their parents are?
May not be their parents. But defenetly their ancestory. But you will say “who cares about ancestory? i live for my happyness”. thats how lmited, selfish and confused bunch of people live..

Uprooted from what? Define “uprooted”. What was the anchor of a person born in say 1990 and what is it now and what has been destroyed? To help me understand, give me a specific example. Like xyz person born in abc year has been uprooted from…something or the other.

These generalizations are too abstract. Show me what “uprooted” means.

/*Define “uprooted”./
You can look it up in dictionary. You are a damn dictionary person arent you?

/*Uprooted from what?*/
Uprooted from indian-ness. uprooted from the samskruthi (the science of producing equanimous individual human beings)

/*give me a specific example.*/

Examples?? Sure. Let me quote some areas in random.

1) Diwali Then and Now :
lets say 20 years back, when diwali comes, women will make snacks and sweets “in home”, preparations will happen weeks ahead, kids will fire crackers and it would be “happening”. TV will show the reason for celebrating diwali by portaying drama on narakasura or ramayana.
But now, diwali means a whole bunch of people sit in front of TV watching actress interviews. Diwali liquidated. Slowly it will loose its vibrance.
On the contrary, christmas is well celebrated and well marketed by the media too. This is same for other hindu festivals too.

Effect :
People are slowly reprogrammed from one to another. This is the phycological displacement AKA uprooting.

2) Panchagam
There is a whole science of looking at panchangam that has direct link with the positions of planets and realizing its effect on earth and drilling it down to how it will influence human life and how we can stay un-influenced. Modern youth have almost forgotten this indian calender system.

Now looking panchangam is considered “old fashioned”. The english calender that we follow has absolutely nothing. it delinks a human from the astronomical events.

3) food habits
Traditionally, we are suppose to eat different food in different seasons so that we can be in tune with the climate around. But now, we eat rice round the year. Now going to dominoz and eating pizzas is a prestige symbol.

4) martial arts
Modern youth will learn karate and kung fu but will consider Kalari as old fashioned. Its almost forgotten.

Suppose someone says “C and D” are your parents when “A and B” are actually, what would you consider such a person? would you say he has liberty to say what he wants to say? Would you say its his freedom and rights?

What people like you and poovannan like is anti-bharat. these are alienistic idealogies and so has to be curbed.

No one is asking you to tolerate someone throwing their fist in your face. But as far as someone insulting your mother, you will have to tolerate it, shout or insult back, ignore it, or if you hit them go to jail. Your choice. You’re not a child (at least I think you’re not a child). Be mature and learn to control your feelings like the rest of us adults.

i hate modern india even more than ever.try to be western and still follow caste crap! I am in love with a Rajput girl but yeah guess what she will be disowned if she chooses me! sickens me to have indian roots.what ever happened to falling in love and leading a natural world…really hope I live to the day that this caste crap is abolished!

@Kieren,
What is love ? Why cant you love a girl from some one in your caste ? Or better, why cant you do arranged marriage ? The Hindoo society is designed so that people get chaste in their life span. This would help people, in civilizing themselves, so that a achieving a human birth is atleast partially justified .

kindly read the article and this is how most educated women feel about arranged marriage.The hatred for bharatiya traditions is very high among them and I have worked in state/central/public sector/armed forces in places across the country and yet to see a women who is willing to be a traditional housewife doing all household chores and willing to obey her husband/inlaws without any hesitation.
@swami the more the number of women in any profession the earlier the demise of caste and patriarchial traditions.The number of intercaste marriages are quiet sizeable and if its taken as a caste they form quiet a significant percentage.

According to the registration department, about 77,000 marriages were registered across the state under the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 during 2010-11. A total of 7,601 marriages were registered under the Special Marriage Act, indicating that 10% of the registered marriages were inter-religious.

Thanks poovannan for the kind words. The kind of issues are trivial compared the to the ones that result from love marriage, sometimes even suicide. In all the cases mentioned in the article we need to understand that the girl never faced a setback, nor was she forced. If she did not like that guy, she can look for the next guy. This is handled very professionally by the family.

Sir ,its not the incidences which are important but the boldness of the women and their preferences and what they dislike.Its reporting of elite but the middle class and poor women too have strong likes and dislikes now and are not hesitant to fight for getting what they like

Your link clearly says it is urban india which is causing the intercaste marriage. If what you said is true, there would have been a sudden jump in intercaste marriage in villages in 1947/1991.Your link clearly says it is urban india which is causing the intercaste marriage. If what you said on arranged marriage is true, there would have been a sudden jump in intercaste marriage in villages in 1947/1991.

It requires a basic or critical mass for shift from siddha to allopathy or samecaste to caste no bar and certain states and areas have reached their critical mass and intercaste marriages will outnumber same caste marrriages in those areas in the years to come.
Tamilnadu is urbanising fast.

More people in Tamil Nadu have moved from rural to urban areas the last 10 years compared to other states, according to the 2011 Census data. Tamil Nadu tops the list of urbanised states with 48.45% of its population living in urban areas , followed by Kerala, Maharashtra and Gujarat.

In the last 20 years, the rate of urbanization in Tamil Nadu has been rapid. According to the 1991 Census, only 34.15% of the total population in Tamil Nadu was classified as urban but in 2011, it has risen to 48.45%, an increase of 14.3%. Since the 2001 census, the percentage of urban population has risen by 4.41%.

Urbanisation breaks both caste and class barriers and no villager who has studied and got a job courtesy reservation goes back to the village.He is the motivation for his extended family and when he/she the mainsupport or rolemodel for his extended family has a intercaste marriage,the power of the family to oppose intercaste marriages disappears within no time.

Welll when brahmins are working for MNCs and are not into vaidheeha and when someone else “really reads the vedas and pooja procedures in a proper way” i do not see it as an offense to “make them brahmins”.

Since the brahmin varna is weak now, this will actually strengthen the varna in long term.

How will it help in the long term? The way society was built was father – > son . that’s why Hindu civilisn stood tall till now. I am not saying Dalits have to manual scavenging even today. but defly they can fit in any of the other jobs. There was a video by Francois Gautier which showed Brahmins cleaning bathrooms in Delhi. Why not given them their ancestors’ trade back?

IMO it will not help in the long term. Why ? 1) they may be willing to take this work now, but their kids may/will not. They may also want to take up high paying jobs.so who will now take up the vaideeha duties? 2) When dalits have been told all along that the Brahmin culture caused their sorry state of affairs, why wud they be devoted? there is a possibility atleast some of them may not show the proper Shraddha. in which case its against Dharma to make them learn Vedas.

I am actually in for the idea, that people can take professions as per their merit. I know several non-Brahmins who are well versed in Sanskrit. If they can learn shlokas and become pujaris, its good. Similarly, if I want to become a farmer, I would want freedom to become one.

/* I would want freedom to become one. */ Everyone shd be free to pursue whatever they want. This is a liberal principle not HIndu principle. Hence you have an IIT trained graduate, instead of inventing things, ends up as an RBI governor to mess up the country. We have an MBBS gold medallist, working in Indian Revenue Service as custom officer to “serve the country”. Sorry, this is what the scriptures call “Dharma confusion”. Its better to do ones own than trying to do others’ perfectly.

/** Hence you have an IIT trained graduate, instead of inventing things, ends up as an RBI governor to mess up the country. **/
Why should IITans work to invent things ? People join IIT for different reasons, same with MIT also. The goal is NOT to make all researchers. Please see great scientists now and even in the past, they have been multifacted personality. Look at Swami Vivekananda himself.

In my opinion for jobs like RBI, the person with the best merit should be chosen.. If he is from IIT good, else if his from Loyala Law collage then also fine. Society is in a state of mess because of UPA mismanagement.

Sorry, what you are talking about are “geniuses’. They have been multifaceted. But we can’t base a society’s survival under that assumption. We need to have set rules, for set jobs. As jobs determine the conduct of the person. We can’t have a solid society based on whims & fancies of individuals, whose thougths change over the course of time. Take the eg. of MBBS gold medallist working in IRS or doing an MBA. (This is an actual person,who proclaimed it w/o a touch of remorse) Who can justify wasting such precious resources on a person’s thought processes which keep changing?

Do you know Singapore has a quota against women enrolling for medicine? they don’t want too many women doctors, as these ladies, take it easy once they start their family & work part-time/leave profession altogether. http://articles.latimes.com/2001/nov/04/news/mn-101

Take the case of a violinist who is MD in pathology. She is an Indian, but now has taken up full duties as violinist as its more profitable/suitable for family life as well,as she gets to travel the world with her husband. Why waste resources like this on ppl, who may / dont want to be fully committed? just because we want to show that we are for “equal opportunity”?

Or take the case of Charulatha Mani. BE. Mechanical degree from the top university of TN. Anna University. Now she earns her living singing cinesongs & carnatic concerts. Why waste a seat like this? Always remember, women in modern jobs will lead to Double Income families with very less benefits to the society as a whole.

Its kind of tangentially related to INTER-CLASS marriage. Women, hypergamous in general, look for spouses educated at a higher level & earning more than them. Which means, they may not look for spouses in traditional ways, leading to SAME-CLASS marriages but INTER-CASTE marriages. eg., NRN son – TVS daughter.

This is actually more dangerious and discriminative.. the society is converted from diverse caste based, in to Exploitative CLASS based, and the anti-caste brigade has to answer for this.. there is equality within CASTE, but is there any equality in CLASS ?

We have to first agree that there can be alternate or opposite opinions.I have no issues with anyone who wants a traditional way of life where he eats just fruits or wears the naturally fallen leaves and doesnt want to travel in a cycle or plane or use vaccines and antibiotics and marry a girl without seeing her even once on the words of his parents.
My only issue is with support for those who want to try riding a bicycle or fly a plane or get vaccines or fall in love to get married.We both have the rights to preach that love is better/arranged marriage is better or allopathy/siddha is the best etc etc .Its surprising that few consider that i or anyother individual doesnt have the right to do that or preach these or form a group of likeminded people and work to help those who want to cross the barriers imposed on them or fight and win elections and promulgate laws which helps people who hate caste/religion etc etc and have no regards for its diktats.
Communications have improved tremendously and various modes of agriculture/medicine/dresses/type of marriages/religious rituals across the world are known to most humans.
Why should a man born in kanyakumari not prefer a job in boston or marry a african or opt for allopathy if he feels it is better than what has been followed by his parents.I again repeat that I have no issues with someone being proud of being a brahmin or arundhatiyar and wants to religiously follow his caste profession and rituals but defenitely disagree when he wants to force those rules on others who doesnt want to follow that.

Just curious – is there anyone alive today who lived in this so called “traditional society”, or did they all die years ago? If they’re dead, who do you want “justice” for? And to reiterate, I’m not at all sure of what these “crimes” were in the first place. You talk of losing community land, but refused to answer in whose name it was and whether or not public resources were diverted to it, whether it was stolen from someone else or whatnot.

We got independence in 1947. Most people from that time are dead by now. So what are you so nostalgic over?

progressive (murpokku) idealogies that you or people like DMK propound typically comes from communist views started by Karl max. Karl max is long dead. So can i argue back asking if you or those people are nostalgic?

Would you trash all that your family elders and ancestros have taught you (if any) once they are gone too. This statement might Irk you. but if it doesnt, then it means you have totally become numb. A closed nut which will never sprout.

IN general, if we have the idealogies and life teachings that were preached by our parents, grand parents and if we follow them, why cant we extend this to our ancestrors who lived 100s and 1000s of years before us. They anyhow are still alive in your genes though they are physically dead.

You’re talking as if no villages exist in India. And just for your knowledge, merely going and living on some land does not make it yours. You need at least some kind of sale deed. Otherwise tomorrow I will walk into an abandoned house, make my home there and then cry when the rightful owner comes and throws me out.

Now you’ll say that the original occupation was before sale deeds and all. And like I said, there are thousands of existing villages in India. So I don’t know what your problem is. Forget the past. Move on and don’t bother about what happened to dead people.

Its really difficult to argue with such ignorant person.. i dont know whether you are asking such dumb questions to know more, or to simply for counter argument..

I am patiently explaining one more time to you on how the traditional people have their rights over their land..

The people who created village from forests are the rightful owners of that village and this right pass on to their successive offsprings.. SO in all 6 lakh villages of india, the people who live there now are descendants of those ancestors who created that village..

The urban indians of metros who inherited power started demolishing these villages to expand their metros, and drove away these village people, either as slum dwellers or as an economic slave to an industry or a corporate company..

This is what i call as a crime that your urban india committed.. IF your metros had been built on forest lands without destroying / disturbing villages, no one will have any issues.. but your urban india was built by destroying existing villages..

If you are employed under a company or under supervision of someone, go tell this to them. Lets say if someone tells this to his boss in an office, he will shown the middle finger. The same is with the society too.

Keep this rubbish idealogy within yourself in home. May be your parents will tolerate. But its good that the indian socity through me fights back on this idealogy.

All these come from the west. Today with this attitude you will legitimize inter caste marriage. tomorrow you will argue and try to legitimize same sex marriage. you will ask whats being gay. Hasnt this happend in america? You wanted to follow the same nonsense.

My stand is this.
1) I am intelligent enough to do what is harmonious to me, society and the planet.
2) If you are intelligent, you also do the same.
3) at personal level, if you still want to do your rubbish, then do it. But if you try to legitimize it, i will send “I condemn it message”.

/*Basically they’re like the British but with brown skins.*/

Correct. Every british person read vedas and talked about social harmony. Every british followed their own jaathi/race nonsense and worshipped their kula devatas daily.

People with this self centered attitude should be corrected. If unable to then should be quarantined.

Wow – you’re comparing “society” to an employer. And you call me dumb? My employer pays me to work for him/her. Society gives me nothing but trouble. I pay my taxes to the government and get police protection and roads etc. Society can go soak its head in cold water. I don’t need it.

We have been saying “Modern education uproots a person from traditional system.”
You have proved yourselves beyond doubt by stating the converse of it “educated women wanted to leave traditional system, caste system etc”.

We have been saying “cities have been destroying the jaathi system”, you confirmed that “city dwellers wanted to do inter caste marriages and proved it with some senses figures”.

So atleast now we are on the same page though using different english words and sentences.

I think the purpose of the blog is achieved that the anti caste brigaders accepted the urban people are committing this activity.

Lets set this as a baseline.Now we can argue if its a crime or not. So hereafter do not throw the ball on the other court and go in circles.

/** Sir ,its not the incidences which are important but the boldness of the women and their preferences and what they dislike.Its reporting of elite but the middle class and poor women too have strong likes and dislikes now and are not hesitant to fight for getting what they like **/

I urge you to look more deeply than the typical marxist angle of men oppressing women. In the article on marriages there is no specific hatred I found among women towards arranged marriages itself. In fact if you actually read, it was actually a girl who locked the bride into a room. And the last story of the groom being reserved is very natural. This is completely unlike the culture of prostitution.

@Poovannan
I wish to point out a few things that occur in my mind. A nation does not last for just 2 generations, if it does so, there will so much chaos in the society, that will result in wars and deaths. Just take Europe for example. So it is very key to think along the angle of sustainability. If you compare the different civilizations, be it Rome/Greece/Egypt they have all had their hey days and they have fallen down. It is mostly because of dependence of state, the society should be independent of the state.

Once this is done, the institution that links one generation to the another is actually marriage. It therefore directly means that society should have a stake in marriage. Marriage is not a personal, I-love-you-love-me relationship or a social contract. In Hindu society it has a much deeper meaning, it is an voluntary effort on the individual to give up his personal needs for the benefit of the family. Only where is there unselfishness there can be personal growth, and marriage is a great institution that achieves it.

The ideal marriage system is that of arranged marriages, for it is here that there is so much social security. I have seen people who love people and then break-up, this is because this modern love system is completely not designed keeping in mind the emotional needs of humans.

You’re talking as if all arranged marriages are huge successes. They’re not. And in many cases the woman only stays out of fear and doesn’t know what else to do. And the thing that links one generation to the next is reproduction. Not marriage. Reproduction involves sex. Sex involves love.

Arranged marriages, is according to me the biggest success in India. It is due to this our civilization has sustained. There is NO fear in women, please do not repeat same lies. The fear in women is higher in the western societies, and this can be shown by the high occurance of rape in US.

Reproduction can occur only through marriage. Unless, you believe in bastards.

What is there to “believe” in bastards? You think if you close your eyes, put your hands on your ears and go “la la la la la” the world will magically be what you want it to be? By the way, the so called “low” occurrence of rapes in India is because the 80% of the cases are not reported. And that is because this wretched Indian culture makes women ashamed.

And what do you mean “civilization has sustained”? What does that even mean? Time will go on no matter what.

I like bastards. When we get rid of marriage people like you will stop insulting people for the actions of their parents.

/** Urbanisation breaks both caste and class barriers and no villager who has studied and got a job courtesy reservation goes back to the village. **/
It has been pointed out many times that urbanization is NOT desirable in the long term. It is extremely inefficient.

All love stories across castes are supported by media & generally urban people agree to this view. All those who break caste system are already loosing their connection with their ancestry. Loosing ancestry also ends up loosing identity. Then these people can better make their names with Integers or decimals to show that they are unattached to any caste / ancestry.
Thanks Senthil, you standout from the crowd because you are still un-dissolved into the urban crowd & their registered pattern of living. You have still connections with your traditional system & that is why you are able to appreciate the traditional ways.

There are very few who live with their caste identity & continue in the profession of their Kulam. The Caste system is diluted when people started taking up occupations that is not from their traditional Kula. The remaining caste identity is just notional to remember the lineage of ancestors. The current caste system is that which exists only as a concept and is nearly impossible to keep this one alive. The time when people go back to their traditional occupations, then the castes may go back to their original place in the society & could be beneficial to the whole. It is already termed “impractical” for a person to continue in their traditional occupation according to their caste identity.
The TV channels make it a breaking news when a farmer’s son becomes an IIT graduate & the news items would be produced in a way to inspire many of Farmer’s sons to drop their traditional occupation & take up the Engineering or other “attractive” careers. A Farmer’s Son succeeding in the farmer profession will never make news.

/** The time when people go back to their traditional occupations, then the castes may go back to their original place in the society & could be beneficial to the whole. **/
It is undeniable that many more professions have arose as a requirement of time. Every one cannot go back to traditional professions..

The idea is to form new castes with similar kind of jobs having similar rules of conduct. Secondly here is an excerpt about a particular society: “trend toward complex societies has been accompanied by a hardening of the mechanisms tht differentiate worker subcastes & labor roles”

When Ganesh utsav 10 days, a perfect equality is attained. There is no difference between a slum person, brahmin, corporate and housewife. Everyone sings in devotion of Ganapati. It is fully imbibed in their culture. Everyone knows the basic shlokas to sing before god. Every colony has its own Ganesh murti, and worship has really made commune living worth while, but worship not just private to the colony. there are even public worship places. BJP, Shiv Sena and MNS had worked extensively in making sure the Dahi Handi celebration across Mumbai a success. Again NO caste differences, between marathas, brahmins, mahars etc. Why is all this so impossible in Chennai or any other city like Coimbatore ?

It is this culture that makes mumbai one of the best cities in India. People although languishing in slums are still happy. Children happy playing with their rubber tyre and parents happy selling products made underneath the flyover. Cooking, sleeping, taalatu is all done below the flyover.
Similar is the case of autowalas, they are so disciplined, they never cheat. They believe that god will not help them if they ask more money. So they return with all change. Chennai is exact opposite. Further, you have dabbawalas who are also epitome of discipline, they have got 6 sigma status. This is also seen when people stand in queeue before busses.

In the school near the place I stayed, Vande Matram is sung everyday.

Are you sure that this commune living between all the castes have been in villages. Of course within the caste there is equality.

/** Sorry, what you are talking about are “geniuses’. They have been multifaceted. But we can’t base a society’s survival under that assumption. We need to have set rules, for set jobs. As jobs determine the conduct of the person. We can’t have a solid society based on whims & fancies of individuals, whose thougths change over the course of time. Take the eg. of MBBS gold medallist working in IRS or doing an MBA. (This is an actual person,who proclaimed it w/o a touch of remorse). Who can justify wasting such precious resources on a person’s thought processes which keep changing? **/

Thank you for admiting that caste sets rigid rules. It is these kind of rigid rules, which actually make people like @poovannan, @bhagwad beware of caste. Freedom is a good thing, I have have first-hand, second-hand experience in it. It is rigid rules, which will nib produing geniuses, and it is geniuses who act as first hand inspiration for the masses, in the next generations. Whenever rigidity comes the society becomes weak, as people are not doing things because they like, but because of the rules – either from the state or the society. I myself was very much angry with strict rules against Bachelors in society. This is not as if married people do not drink or smoke. You see the hippocracy ?

/** whims & fancies of individuals, whose thougths change over the course of time **/
This is wonderful, in any society there needs to be people who mature themselves and experience truth. Only with the influence of poeople with such first hand thinking process can mould the soceity NOT rules.

/**
Do you know Singapore has a quota against women enrolling for medicine? they don’t want too many women doctors, as these ladies, take it easy once they start their family & work part-time/leave profession altogether. http://articles.latimes.com/2001/nov/04/news/mn-101
**/
So the problem is with the subsidies of the state. What is your issue if I teach some women medicine, and I do not expect her to continue in the field.

/**
Take the case of a violinist who is MD in pathology. She is an Indian, but now has taken up full duties as violinist as its more profitable/suitable for family life as well,as she gets to travel the world with her husband. Why waste resources like this on ppl, who may / dont want to be fully committed? just because we want to show that we are for “equal opportunity”

Or take the case of Charulatha Mani. BE. Mechanical degree from the top university of TN. Anna University. Now she earns her living singing cinesongs & carnatic concerts. Why waste a seat like this? Always remember, women in modern jobs will lead to Double Income families with very less benefits to the society as a whole.
**/

Waste of resources ? Common dude, by now you should have realized that we are producing much more doctors and engineers than required. People study engineering, (instead of law) because that is one of the thing that is valued. Goto arts collage, there is no environment where sincere students can succeed properly. People there are the pathetic of all the students. You want Charulatha Mani to go and study there

STOP looking at the world with a scarcity mentality, instead see it with an ABUNDANT mentality.

/* Thank you for admiting that caste sets rigid rules. It is these kind of rigid rules, which actually make people like @poovannan, @bhagwad beware of caste. */

Yes , it was a given that caste had/has rigid rules. No one has denied it. The argument always has been the need for / against it.

/* t is rigid rules, which will nib produing geniuses, */

Doesn’t. One only has to look at Hindu history to know that it doesnt. Our ancestors, were the best in everything not just one or two items. Unlike today, when we don’t seem to produce 1/100th of what our ancestors did.

/* I myself was very much angry with strict rules against Bachelors in society. This is not as if married people do not drink or smoke. You see the hippocracy ? */

I don’t mind the hypocrisy because bachelors, on the average, have a higher chance of getting into trouble than a married family man. Even if both of them drink or smoke.

/* This is wonderful, in any society there needs to be people who mature themselves and experience truth. Only with the influence of poeople with such first hand thinking process can mould the soceity NOT rules. */

They are not maturing. They are confused. So a person wastes his, others , society’s time to prepare for being a doctor. But then when he is 25, he realises the hardship/has other concerns/for money reasons, that he wants to give it up and take up some other job. So what happens to the society that waited for him to treat patients?

/* So the problem is with the subsidies of the state. */
Who is the state here? its everyone’s tax money. Not just his alone. So we give up some freedom in return for protection from state. So state has every right to impose rules that it deems to be fit for the SOCIETY as a whole.

/* Waste of resources ? Common dude, by now you should have realized that we are producing much more doctors and engineers than required. */

a ) why? because they see a US visa lined for them when their 4-year degree is over. Money is the primary motive .

b) we also have a shortage of skilled technicians like plumber , electrician & so on..
so why the imbalance in society?

Society doesn’t wait for anyone to become a doctor. The person pays for his medical course, studies, and gets his degree. If he wants to burn it after that and take up dancing we should all support his choice. He doesn’t owe society anything. He has only his own life to live for without bothering about the lives of random strangers.

Of course money is the primary motive. That is a good thing. We should all only care about money, ourselves, and those we love as long as we just leave others alone and don’t harm them.

/*
He doesn’t owe society anything. He has only his own life to live for without bothering about the lives of random strangers.
*/

This is the mentality that we condem. Selfishness and self centerness to the core.
Jaathi based traditional model puts society as priority. Mccauley views put individual as priority.
This Mccauly model is the cancer to youth and you are a very good example of uprooted person.
Your very presence and every word is a record in this blog of how “urban system” produces irrresponsible person.Keep recording more of your qualities. That helps and proves the point.

You have to answer a basic question. “Do you want to be a dictator or not?”. In other words, do you want to force other people to do what you want? If the answer is yes – if you want to force others to do what you want instead letting them live their lives freely then we can end this discussion right here. Then you’re no different from Stalin, the British, or any other petty dictator who presumes to tell people what is good for them and what they must do.

If on the other hand you want to let people live their lives freely, then we have something to talk about. But I must admit I don’t exactly see how your philosophy allows for people to live free lives.

So instead of going back and forth like this, just tell me now. Do you want to put people in chains, or set them free of their chains?

Criminal asks the judge if he is a dictator
Wow – now you’re just being ridiculous. A criminal by definition has hurt someone else. In short, a criminal has already taken away someone else’s rights and so the state is justified in taking away the criminal’s rights in a limited manner.

Don’t fudge the topic by bringing in stupid comparisons with criminals. Next you’ll start talking about parents being dictators to children below 18! Or maybe I’ve misjudged you and you genuinely don’t understand and need to be explained all this.

So I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you one more time. Do you want to control innocent people who are adults and who have never harmed you in any way. Do you have the right to tell even one single person what to do?

Please answer this question so I’ll at least know whether you want to be a dictator or not. Based on that we can continue talking.

I see that you fell into your own trap. you or people like you are criminals because, you have taken away the rights of not just “someone” but a community of people. You people have taken away the rights of jaathis, looted temples and made it to business. Go over senthils other blogs to know what urban uprooted morons like you are taking from the traditional society.

So your question of me being a dictator or not is valid only when you or people like you are innocent. You people are not innocent. But you are ignorant, uprooted, short-sighted, selfish, self centered morons. So your question is not valid. Isnt it.

Who is this “you people, you people”? I assure you I have personally never done anything to harm anyone. I have never taken anyone’s property. Whatever someone else has done I am not responsible for their actions and I have never personally hurt you. So don’t trot out bullshit about “you people”. Holding a person responsible for something that they did not do goes against all principles of justice. Your dangerous mob mentality tars everyone with some imaginary crime when most people are just harmless, innocent, and trying to live their lives as best they can.

So without resorting to this nonsense of “you people”, please answer the straightforward question. Do you or do you not want to be a dictator over innocent individuals who have personally never done anything to hurt you?

Enough of these evasive answers. Time to be honest. Then we’ll see what cloth you’re cut from.

/** Who is this “you people, you people”? I assure you I have personally never done anything to harm anyone. I have never taken anyone’s property. Whatever someone else has done I am not responsible for their actions and I have never personally hurt you
**/

The house you live are constructed by exploiting poor people’s hard labour.. the daily shit you release in your bathroom are cleaned by the sewage cleaners.. the waste you dump outside your house are cleaned by garbage cleaners..

and above all, the land you possess today are got by destroying villagers and driving away those native people.. The iron that you use are got by exploiting forests and displacing tribals.. the electricity you use are obtained in the same way..

You cannot live even a single minute of your life, if your urban govt stops exploiting the whole rural india..

Senthil, don’t be obtuse. You need to be educated in what “harm” means. Just ask yourself this – if I had not been born, would anyone’s life be better because of it? If I were to suddenly disappear today, would anyone be happy?

The answer is no. My presence in the world does not make anyone’s life worse. You say poor people clean my garbage? Yes! And if I didn’t exist they wouldn’t do that and would not get paid. If anything my life on this planet has benefited every single person from whom I have purchased something. Take me out of the equation and they would be poorer!

Put this question to any garbage cleaner who clears my trash. Ask them…if I were to suddenly cease to exist would his/her life magically become better? No!

Learn to think in this way and you will realize how absurd your thought process is. So stop this crap about “you people, you people”. You have some grievances, I get that. Go find the actual people who hurt you and vent your frustration on them. Leave the rest of us alone.

If you want involve in debate, the ground rule is, you should have intelligence to understand analogies, correlate things, connect the dots, and look “ahead”, run virtual simulations in mind to visualize. You have neither of these qualities. You are a book worm stuck with definitions. You are a selfish idiot stuck with your own welbeing. You lack vision and the only vision that you have is your own life. Why pull down others who has a broader vision?

You are such an idiot that you cannot understand “you people” means. It means people like you with same stand and idealogies . Your dumbness and stupidity which whole band of youth and the previous generations have + the DK politics and idealogies has destroyed the vibrance of bharat. You interospect on this first before blindly accusing others.

Learn to look things with some perspective. grow up from Your childish selfish attitude.

ppppaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh. i wonder how you call yourself blogger. Freelancer nonsense. Anyone with internet connection now calls themselves blogger and starts puking their thoughts in fashionable way with limited logic and claims to be a freelancer blogger. Cant withstand looking at your blog topics and your idealogies.

My friend use to say ” tamilians have a history of allying with asuras and asuric thoughts”. It is indeed true.

Well wouldn’t you know it? You haven’t answered the question and are now cowering behind personal attacks. But I’m not going to give you such an easy escape. Or just admit that you don’t have an answer and we can call it quits.

To refresh your memory, here’s the question once again. Do you want to be a dictator over innocent people who have never hurt you?

And before you start using weird definitions of “innocent” use this simple test: Has my presence ever caused someone’s life to become worse? If I were to die tomorrow, would someone else’s standard of living improve? If the answer is “NO” (and it is), then I’m innocent and I haven’t hurt anyone.

So please my dear sir. Let me walk you around your hand waving and your abuses and lead you to the question I asked above.

Or just tell me “I don’t want to answer you”. Then I’ll know where you stand.

By the way, your talk of “youth” is nonsense since you have no idea how old I really am. But let’s not get diverted huh? Answer…the…question.

@bagwad,
/** To refresh your memory, here’s the question once again. Do you want to be a dictator over innocent people who have never hurt you?
**/

IT is your urban india, that is behaving like a dictator.. One section of your urban liberals, calls for destruction of rural society.. another section, calls for urbanisation, which means destroying villages..

Above all, your urban indian govt enacts laws, and forcing everyone to adhere to that law.. and even in your own comments, you are saying that everyone should be bound by law..

So it is you and your urban setup which is having a pyramidal authoratarian system, which dictates to people..

And with that, the deflating noise you hear is the collapsing sound of your argument against the force of rationality and logic. I would congratulate you on a game well played, except that you never really played all that well in the first place.

Again “your liberals”, “your urban” etc etc. Answer the question. Do you want to be a dictator over me personally? I was not even born when all this happened and my presence is not making anyone’s life worse. Therefore I am innocent. And millions of others in urban areas are innocent as well.

So you’re not answering the question. Do you want to be a dictator over innocent people like me? Simple question! Yes…or no?

I am only mentioning the urban system which you support and are part of.. where did i dictate you?

and do you understand the issue i am raising.. you personally did not harm any one.. but the system you are part of, is destroying my bharath, for its daily survival.. which means, you could survive only if your urban system exploits resources and provide to you..

I pay only for electricity. I don’t care where it comes from. It is the government who decides how to produce the electricity. So you need to campaign for the government to use solar, wind, hydroelectric power or whatever. I have nothing to do with it. I don’t care nor do I need to care where my power is coming from.

If the culprit is the government bureaucrats, take it up with them. What has your jaathi etc got to do with this?

/** Your perverted definition of “harm” is the root of all your frustrations. **/

the definition is straight forward.. your current living place is built by destroying villages and driving away people.. this is a crime, NOT just harm.. the shit that you release in your bathroom is drained in to rivers, and polluting them.. There are so many articles on how your urban metros are polluting even big rivers like ganga and yamuna..

Boss…I never personally destroyed anything! So I’m innocent and no one can harm me. Your definition of harm is like taking revenge on someone’s son because their father killed your father. And that person’s father is also dead!

Now you’re talking about harm to rivers! Again, if the government releases the sewage into the river, that is not my fault. Go cry to the government. The people are innocent. They themselves are not doing anything.

/** we also have a shortage of skilled technicians like plumber , electrician & so on..
so why the imbalance in society? **/
Imbalance is created because they are not valued. Only macaulayan education is valued in India.

its a superficial analysis. can you go a little deeper and analyse why medieval Hindhusthan never lacked proficiency in any profession? If certain profession was valued, ppl wud’ve / cud’ve switched right? why didn’t they in medieval India?

I have told you that it is Macaulayan education which makes these profession valueless.. The people who are running the policies are all Macaulayan educated, creating the positive feedback. In medival period there is no macaulayan education.

superficial analysis. Earlier times we didn’t have shortage, because people did their job were comfortable in their own profession, which anti-caste ppl called “rigid rules”, whether now we think it as good or bad. Under the current every1 is same mentality, every 1 is pushed to do college, try to get a white collar job, earn more money in the name of progress. and the value system is truned upside down. Hence u don’t have ppl taking up blue collar jobs.

/* He doesn’t owe society anything. */ If doesn’t I believe he should be living in a forest, living on a paleo diet. Not amongst other humans, & enjoy the fruits of their labor : his ancestors’ & others’.

Lol – no one “enjoys the fruits of other’s labor” for free. We pay money to get the fruits of labor. For which we work. We work, get money, and pay that money to other people. How the hell does the useless idea of “society” come into this?

How the hell did jungles suddenly come into this? I will live in a place where there are people so I can pay them to do my work and where I can receive money for work I do. That is the meaning of civilization.

If this is your definition of “economic slave”, then excellent. We should all be economic slaves. Life does not owe me anything. If I don’t find a job, I will suffer. What is wrong with that?

/** How the hell did jungles suddenly come into this? I will live in a place where there are people so I can pay them to do my work and where I can receive money for work I do. That is the meaning of civilization.
**/

Why should you need people to live with, when you say that you dont care about others in the society, and society itself is a non-existent.. and now you are speaking about civilization.. look at your own irony..

You are always bound to other people, and NOT a free man as you imagine to be.. if you work for a company, you are bound by their rules and regulations.. if you get work from others, you dictate rules for others to do your work.. So your own logic of individualism gets invalidated here..

If you dont care about other people, then you should NOT even expect people to live with.. you can better go to a jungle and live as you like..

Civilization is real. It’s a collection of people living together under certain laws. Society is fake however. It means that people have to care for each other. And that is made up. I choose to work for a company and that makes me a free man even though I’m bound to their rules after I join. No one forced me to work for a company. Others choose to work for me. I don’t force them. They are free people too.

I don’t care about other people. But I care about the work they can do for me.

Common, I thought we are discussing more about India, and caste.. Of course do you think that the anti-caste brigade have an answer to inter-class marriage. @poovannan and @indian_first have not even commented. @bhagavad has been in his full form again, saying that we need to remove marriage itself.

@senthil class is easily changeable and the entire middle class from the castes down in the pyrramid is courtesy reservation policies post1947.
profl education or a govt/public sector job/hit in film industry makes one jump class within days unlike caste and the poverty levels have been coming down quiet a bit.The BPL in TN which was more than 50% in 70s is around 19% now and unlike violent opposition by caste groups to intercaste marriages there is no opposition to interclass marriages except the concerned family.

1) What made you and all anti caster brigadiers think jaathi system is like a pyramid? Has this been described as a pyramid in shaastras or vedas? This is essentially a view of a westerner and you are aping it. Can you disprove it?

2) Indian poverty is a result of invasion courtesy European looters though it was Indians who lost themselves to the invaders. how can you blame jaathi system be accused of this?

@swami our own shastras and shmritis talks about it. what are the anuloma and pratiloma marriages and its various gradations and the differing generations one has to go undergo to get the varna of father in a marriage between brahmin and kshatriya,B and vaishya,B and sudra.
Why the reverse pratiloma marriages created the new caste of panchamas and was opposed by all.Doesnt this indicate a pyramid system
What is the niyogam practised by vyasa in mahabharat.kindly read about niyogam and people who can help or participate in niyogam is a pyramid
God indra too gets punished for relationship with a brahmin rishis wife but no punishment for vyaasa for assaulting the sudra servant(mother of vidhura) who was sent by the queen instead of her as she feared vyaasa as assault on a sudra women by those above them in the pyramid was considered a boon and gift for them

Pyramidal system is possible ONLY in authoratarian system, where control and command emerges from single person or few group of people..

So Castes doesnt constitute Pyramids.. because it is NOT an authoratarian system, and each caste is free..

On the other hand, it is your Urban Class system that is highly pyramidal.. the upper class people are masters, and lower caste people has to obey the orders from upper class people.. the capitalistic and corporate system followed in your urban centers, the ownership lies with single person, who controls everyone.. this is what constitutes the pyramidal model ..

In hospitals, the command and control lies with the doctor who owns the hospital.. and the nurses, and other workers had to obey the orders from him.. and this is a pyramidal model..

Where in shaastras the word pyramid or its equivalant indic(sanskrit) word mentioned?

It is your mind that arranges events and incidents into a patter that is already known geometrical figure called pyramid. the moment you fit it into a pyramid, you are now struggling with the boundries and limitiations of a pyramid. If you think its a square then its a different boundry and different limitations.

My challenge to you is not on the events on what happened and why it happened the way it happened. My challenge to you is how can you “fit the past events” into a pyramid.

Very filthy comment by @poovannan, he has to first of all prove that the text he quotes from is historical. Even if they are his interpretation looks to have picked up from Ambedkar or some crappy guy. I do not think he has made any effort in reading those books, but he is just parrotting stuff.

/** class is easily changeable and the entire middle class from the castes down in the pyrramid is courtesy reservation policies post1947
**/

I am NOT speaking about mobility.. i am speaking about the utopian equality that you are calling for.. and if CLASS are easily changeable, why cant your Upper CLASS, marry the lower class people and change their CLASS and establish equality ?

and poverty eradication is one of the noble goal of the urban utopians.. if all upper class and middle class people marry SLUM people, poverty will be instantly erased.. right? why cant you people call for such noble causes?

If they fall in love, they will marry. It happens all the time in colleges, and at work. Why do you want to force social engineering? What are you going to do? Inject people with a drug and make them fall in love? :D

/*Do you want to be a dictator over innocent people who have never hurt you?*/
If i am a dictator, i would have kicked your ass out of the world by now. So rest in peace.
Your dictionary definition of innocent is limited book bug. People are not innocent. They are ignorant.
Once you realize you are ignorant, you will become a seeker and bharat has been the nation of seekers.
there are rules that are set for a seeker.
you are way behind the curve. Unless you move forward, i might seem to be a dictator for your lame limited mind.
if you want to call me that, you can. you have the freedom dont you?

/*Has my presence ever caused someone’s life to become worse?*/
You have to tell that by looking at your life. like you said, i rarely know you or wish to.

/*If I were to die tomorrow, would someone else’s standard of living improve?*/

Stand 1 : if your presense or absense doesnt impact anyone then thats well and good. At least you have not “harmed” anyone per your definition.Its a safe stand but a limited one.

Stand 2 : if your presense or absense doesnt impact anyone then that tells how INSIGNIFICANT you are to others as you have not “contributed” to anyone around you for their well being.

There is a very thin line between these 2 stands. Your selfishness + your lack of concern over others are acting like a shell for you to open up and transcend these limited visions.
Again, your stupid mind will aruge and ask for the definition of “positive” and “well being”. Look up your own dictionary book worm.
The way you live and speak, who cares if you live or die? this is actually where you stand. So dont confuse this with your “perceived innocent” stand.

/*By the way, your talk of “youth” is nonsense since you have no idea how old I really am. */

looking at your picture i guessed it. Be it 40 ot 45 or what ever.Per definition of youth in your dictionary, i could be wrong too.
But Who cares? Its irrelevant.

Having answered to your dumb innocent question, lets discuss about the blog topic without digressing it. You have to prove your and your peopl’s innocense.

No, you can’t kick my ass because you don’t have the power (or I suspect the guts). But you want to.

You can’t just come up with your own definition of harm. No court in the world would find me guilty because my presence has not made anyone’s life worse. I am perfectly entitled to remain indifferent as long as I’m not hurting anyone else.

Sorry, but I am innocent no matter which way you look at it. So are millions of others. And it looks as if you want to be a dictator to millions of others. Look at world history. It’s filled with power hungry morally bloated ego filled people just like you.

No, you can’t kick my ass because you don’t have the power (or I suspect the guts). But you want to.

If i am a dictator then i sure can. You branded me as dictator. Once i am, i can kick anyones ass not just yours. Thats the definition of dictator. look up your dictionary.
But that fact that i meant i am not means that you are spared.

Dumb a**. I have answered this question many times. If you are not intelligent enough to get it then i cant help it.

My answer is here
“I am NOT a dictator unless you wanted to brand me one. If you brand me a dictator which i claim i am not, then you are imposing something on me which i don’t want. By doing this, you become a dictator. Are you a dictator?”

/*I never promised you that you would get that power*/
If i am a dictator, why would i wait to “get” power from you? I assume power by myself and do all rubbish to you but it will sound perfect to me. Ex : Kicking your ass out.
Since i am not a dictator, we are discussing hypothetically here. so lets leave this dictator nonsense and discuss something worth.

/*dictator over innocent people?*/
Just because you dont want to engage in a “life for others” you will not be endorsed as a innocent. Even if you want to believe, you can. Its your right.
But in a larger picture,Its proved beyond doubt that the “urban class system” that you are supporting is not innocent and your answer “Go ask government”.

To sum up, here are the questions to you and this is how you escape from them.

1) Urban class system that you support is not innocent?
@bhagwad : Go ask politicians

2) do you agree there is a problem?
@bhagwad : i do not see a problem. If its your problem you approach the government. Why should i? I live my own life. I dont hurt anyone.

3) So what is the role of a citizen in democracy?
@bhagwad: No Answer. But what ever is the role. I have the freedom to decide what my role is how much i can engage in society. My life and freedom is my concern. If you have a problem you deal with the government.

4) But it is people like us who run the government. Isnt it.
@bhagwad : no people are innocent. May be its only those people in governement that are problem.

Moral of story :
Your self centeredness doesnt allow you to engage in a solution because your shortsightedness doesnt allow you to see the problem in first place.

Remember – being insignificant or indifferent is not a crime. Anyone who doesn’t hurt someone else is innocent. Moreover, whenever I make a purchase, eat at a restaurant, or hire someone to clean my toilet I’m doing good in the world. Because of me, that person or establishment has got business, money, and a chance to improve their lives with that money. I don’t force them to do business with me. They choose to do it. And without me, their lives would actually be worse.

I do good wherever I go. And I’m certainly not harming anyone else. On the other hand, I don’t want to make a difference to this world. I really don’t care. I just want to get through life without pain and die peacefully. At the same time I’m not harming anyone either.

By any standard, by any dictionary, by and yardstick I am innocent. If not, what harm do you claim I (and millions of others) have caused due to our existence?

So take up your frustration with the government. Don’t talk about inter caste marriage etc. If you feel that the government bureaucrats are doing something wrong, address your problems to them. This “exploitation” you talk about has nothing to do with me. I neither created it, nor do I perpetuate it. If I suddenly disappeared from this earth, no one’s life would become better.

/*Again, if the government releases the sewage into the river, that is not my fault. Go cry to the government.*/

Who runs the “government”. You argue for a non-jaathi based society fine. Which means you need so called “full freedom” which democratic government is promising to provide. Has it provided it or not is another question. But assuming it has, what is the role of every citizen in the democratic process. Look up from your dictionary and tell everyone here the role of a citizen in democratic process.

Its definitely not a “i dont care” attitude that you posses.I pay for electricity and i don’t care where it comes from is not attitude of a citizen who fights for a democratic country.

The role of a citizen in the democratic process is to pay taxes and obey the laws. In return for this payment, the government gives me police protection, roads, and other facilities. I don’t need to “fight” for a democratic and free India because that fight is already over. I have a democratic and free India.

Let me shift the argument. The identity that you hold as “you” is your personal selfifh self. Lets leave that. Here the “YOU” represents “anyone in urban system and especially anyone that endorses the urban system” . do you want to endorse the “YOU” which it seems you are.

In this context, “YOU are abusing the resources.of bharat” Now its “YOUR” problem as “YOU are the abuser”. Go fix it. The bharat is the victim.

/*Why would I care about what others do?*/
If that is so why do you care what we(jaathi supporters) do this blog or what we claim.
why are you in this blog in first place? What ever we discuss, we are discussing among ourselves? Why do you want to “prove your point” in this blog. Just ran away right?

You are here because you have your perspective on things and that is fine. So dont just fool around yourselves with statements like “Why would I care about what others do?”

And this has been answered in other way as well. you are not an individual.

LIfe in society is a open transaction. Its a open system. you cannot be closed out. Whether you wish or like or not, What others do impacts you. What you do impacts others. Your actions, your idealogies, your thought process are also your actions which impacts. There are few fools reading your blog and getting influenced as well arent they?

It is only within this “openness” that an individual freedom is being exercised. :Learn to look at things with some perspective and stop blabbering.

“why do you care what we(jaathi supporters) do this blog or what we claim.”

This is a philosophical discussion. I’m very comfortably sure that none of your ideas will make any difference. I just like to debate ideas. And your ideas want to control others. I have a vested interest in ensuring that no Indian citizen has their freedoms taken away because it will affect me sooner or later.

/*I’m very comfortably sure that none of your ideas will make any difference*/

You can live in your own wonder land. the days of the DKpagutharivu nonsense is almost dying and so will your “individualistic”, “selfisish” idealogies will. Its a cycle. Every dog has its day. you had yours all these years.

Oh don’t worry. I’m the only person listening to you. This discussion is just academic. If there was any danger of people taking you seriously I would be more worried. If the danger was real, I would need to fight to maintain my independence. As things stand however, you can be safely ignored!

Where did i say i was worried. I just said you are confused. Dont manipulate my statements.

/*As things stand however, you can be safely ignored!*/
Readers who are tuned into dharmic thoughts when they read this blog now or in the future would know whom to ignore. So lets leave it to readers. You dont influence or dictate terms to readers with your ideas of ignoring me. By doing that, you become a dictator by your own definitions.

Your whole argument in this blog rejects any “figure of speech”, “anologies”, “abstract ideas that needs to be tailored according to situation”. You were always stuck with definitions as defined by dictionaries and were arguing. But who cares right?

“You were always stuck with definitions as defined by dictionaries and were arguing.”

But were were arguing in English. I assumed you were familiar with common phrases. On the other hand, which phrases have you used that I took literally? “You people”? Is that the one? That has only one meaning. I even wrote a blog post about how Senthil and you like that word so much.

And more over whensome one says “you people” its very clear that “you and others in the society who has similar mindsets like you are being refered to”.
“you people” is not just mentioned in the context of creating a hypothetical virtual target upon which something bad is dumped on.
Its being mentioned after noticing significant number people in society fitting into a specitic pattern

The law essentially says “Don’t hurt others”. Everything revolves around that. If you’re calling the law to not hurt other people “dictatorial”, then I can only assume that you want to hurt other people.

Lol, so you nail the problem down to just overpopulation then. It has nothing to do with innocent, non innocent, harm, non harm etc. Finally instead of talking nonsense about jaathi, and villages, inter caste marriages and what not you come down to reality. Overpopulation. Fine, that is good. That is a problem which is worthy of discussion.

With all dumb and useless discussions that i had with @bhagwad for the past 2 days, the only advantage that it turned out is that, it has perfectly portrayed the attitude of the urban CLASS society. We have to give a standing ovation for @bhagwad as he is perfect example of a “spoiled” “uprooted” person. Only credit is, he is a good simple human minus any values. He might be safe as a rabbit. But can only be used for clinical trials.

He has proved beyond doubt that the urban model clearly de-links a person from commune and society. It encourages and makes a person “feel/think” as if he is an individual. When many people like this are produced by the CLASS system who have this “I dont care” attitude, it will be a cancer to society

This mindset is tangential to what dharmic system talks about like vasudeva kudumbakam and infact it defies the tamil proverb yaadum oore yaavarum kelir. For him, there is only the individual and no Others. His contempt even over his family members and ancestors has proved beyond any doubt how this CLASS system has the potential to break the family structure and how it produces rotten citizens.

Yes.. bhagwad has weakened his own logic in this article.. i enjoyed that.. and as you said, he has proven how isolated and atomised, the modern urban indians are.. their moral superiority has taken a set back, as they are scrutinised in debate..

Very filthy comment by @poovannan, he has to first of all prove that the text he quotes from is historical.

Sir what is filthy .Are you calling mahabharatha filthy

Bhishma refused to marry because of his vow and the kingdom was left without any heirs.The elders decided on invoking the practise of niyogam to get heirs.
kindly read mahabharatam or google for niyogam or atleast read fellow hindutva warriors blog

Niyoga was a perfectly acceptable social practice for continuing a lineage whereby the husband—who cannot impregnate his wife because of impotency or whatever other reason—gives consent to his wife to have sex with another man for the express purpose of bearing a child. The sexual relation with the other man would stop as soon as the wife became pregnant. The child born thus was termed a Kshetraja (literally “born of the field,” meaning born of the mother). The practice of Niyoga existed in Rig Vedic times (see for example, Mantra 10, Sutra 10) and is also held valid by Manu Smriti (IX.59-63) as an emergency/extreme measure. The same Manu Smriti also condemns Niyoga in IX.64-68 in cases where Niyoga is used as an excuse to satisfy lust.

THere are clear rules on who are authorised for performing niyoga and it indicates the pyramidal caste system crystal clear

@senthil you are honest and proud about all things which where practised in olden days but @swamy and @surya wanted proof for the pyramidal caste system and are arguing that caste system is not pyramidal.
what are anuloma marriages.are they not pyramidal was my reply
niyogam too is my reply to that and I am happy that they too consider it filthy unlike you and stand by my side.
The complete absence of punishment to the queen or sage vyaasa for sexually exploiting the sudra women who was sent instead of the queen as she feared sage vyaasa exposes the state of sudra women in those golden era.They should consider it as a blessing when anyone from higher varna sexually exploits or assaults them and this practise continues till date.
The reverse was terribly opposed even they had fallen in love and god indra gets punished in the myths and the rishipathini ahaliga gets punished for being deceived and sexually exploited by the lord himself.All myths and rituals are based on a very rigid pyramidal caste system

You need to understand a subtle difference. Rigid doesnt means its pyramid.
Rules are different for every group of people. Rules change based on geography, the role that they do in society etc. For the same mistake, a shudra (AKA common man or civilian) gets X punishment, vaishya gets 2X, kshatriya gets 3X and a brahmana gets 4X.

These are laws. laws customized and tailored according to the role people play in society.

Anuloma, pratiloma, Niyoga are all marriage and sex related rules. Rules seems like a one way street and thats bothering you. The rules that you talk about is still not a pyramid. It is only your mind that puts this in a pyramid structure.

So again, please justify and reference where in shaastras or vedas or in our ithihaasas it is mentioned that the jaathi varna system is “pyramid” in nature. Even refer the counter arguments given by budhisms to vedic philosophies. Search for references from the panchama group of people that you talk about frequently. Has anyone ever said its pyramid in nature?

The idea of viewing jaathi model as a pyramid has come from the western people during invation as that was their way to confuse and infuse people with an alternative thought process.

/** The complete absence of punishment to the queen or sage vyaasa for sexually exploiting the sudra women who was sent instead of the queen as she feared sage vyaasa exposes the state of sudra women in those golden era.
**/

You are again baseless allegations, which has already been debated.. if needed we will debate in new article and NOT in current one..

You need to answer the main question.. why cant the anti-caste brigades, demand Inter-CLASS marriages, and campaign for promotion of upper caste boys/girls marrying lower class boy/girl, as a utopian cause of bringing equality in your urban centers..

@poovannan,
/** @senthil you are honest and proud about all things which where practised in olden days but @swamy and @surya wanted proof for the pyramidal caste system and are arguing that caste system is not pyramidal.
**/

Again you are wrong in projecting such inter-varna marriage as pyramidal.. varna and jathi are LAYERED.. pyramidal system always have a single point of authority at the top as in case of your urban government and corporate system ..

Marriage between a brahmin male and the varnas below was not a taboo and they where not outcasted.they enjoyed a level inbetween brahmins and kshatriyas and there existed clear rules and number of generations before few from them can reach brahmin status.It was 3 generation for this combo,5 for vyshya and 7 for sudra.
The patriarachial varna system made marriage of a brahmin women with any lower varna prohibitory and the least punishment was absolute banishment
Is it not pyramidal.the punishment model of Brahmins getting the maximum for a crime is totally false and its the punishmnet they will get in after life and not by the current kings.killing of brahmins was prohibited even for heinous crimes including killing ones own parents fro brahmins while sudras where murdered for thefts and verbal abuse of higher varnas

Leave the scriptures.. today science tells, that it needs 7 generation for a hybrid animal to restore its parent genetic characteristics, provided all these successive 7 generations are mated with pure breed.. For every pure breed, it is compulsory to maintain a pedigree of atleast 7 generations..

Our varna jathi setup are a pakka human breeding setup, designed for a healthy society.. Religion & ideology made people unable to understand this pragmatic setup.. the transmission of guna, characteristics, traits and other factors are through birth, and following corresponding life & Food style.. that’s the reality..

Which progeny of anuloma marriages are eligible for upanayanam are clearly spelt out in the smrithis and we talk of caste system as layered and not pyramidal.
Nioygam was permitted with persons from the same varna and higher varnas.Even today taking women from lower varnas is practised in north india and there exists pyramids within rajputs,Brahmins etc based on the anuloma origins.chaturvedi or chattobadhyaayaa will take women from trivedi or dwivedi but will not give a chaturvedi girl to a dwivedi or banerjee for marriage.The same in rajputs too where they have no objection to taking women from dhoubtful rajput communities courtesy anuloma marriages,they never give their women to them for marriage.

The patr-Lineal is different from patri-archial.. the eligibility for upanayana are just standards or rules and NOT an authoratarian setup.. these are NOT pyramidal..

The foremost requirement of a pyramidal setup is the hierarchy of command and control.. there should be a single leader, under which all others should obey the orders from.. varna and jathi, are autonomous entity, and are part of Commune setup and NOT pyramidal setup..

As i said before, your examples are scenarios of one way traffic. Its not pyramid in nature.

On roads, we do have one way traffic for its own reason. Is it wrong?

Your references are like below
Our traffic law says for exmaple, 2 wheelers only on this one way road. Trucks not allowed.Then truck drivers are complaining why is this. If you look at the reason you will know.

In jaathi scenario, may be we forgot the reason, or may be the reason is irrelevnt in todays context. May be the reason is not applicable now due to other technologies and ways of living. Just because of that you dont have to be judgemental about the past. Look past with its own context.

Again, lets not deviate. your examples are not pyramid in nature. Mreover my question is not whether its pyramiid or not.

But my question is “where is the word pyramid or its sanskrit equalent” mentioned in shaastras.?”

/** In jaathi scenario, may be we forgot the reason, or may be the reason is irrelevnt in todays context. **/

I have decoded the entire perspective of jathi and the reason & role behind each jathi.. Our jathi are the building blocks of the Real Free Society of our Traditional Bharatham.. i will details this in the coming days..

Anuloma, pratiloma, panchama, progeny. you keep talking about this for past few years atleast as long as i am looking at your posts in senthils blog.

your core concern still is why birth is used as a prime default aspect that drives the decision of who is what in society. Whether its right or wrong?

If its wrong, then the challenge in this bloig is “The class system uses money as a factor to discreminate even more.” its wrong as well. If you argue using money is just a change in the model and changes are inevitable and we need to sail along the tide, then the same is true for having birth as a factor as well. There is no need for you to look at past with present eyes.

So the claim and question again is “CLASS uses money as a factor to discriminate more”. Do you agree.

Please answer this instead of getting into the pit of cyclic responses.

@poovannan,
OK, I get your problem. Your basic problem is acceptance of anuloma marrages and disregard to pratiloma marraige. You need to understand the concept of marraige in the society, it is called Kanya Daanam. When I am a father I wish my daughter to be in the “best” society. The mosit ideal for me is to marry off my daughter to someone worthy of my own caste. In that case, I am assured that my daughter will not be “troubled” because of different value systems in future.

However, there could be an exception where I could not find someone who is worthy in my caste for my daughter. Then I start looking outside of the caste (note that this is rare). Now I can either give to someone of lower caste, or higher one. Lets say I give my daughter to some one of a lower caste. Note that in usual case, I do not even eat the food cooked by people in this caste, because of their different lifestyle. This would mean, I will not be in a situation to eat the food cooked by my own daughter. Also, if I give my daughter to some-one worthy (in any society %of worthy men << % of worthy women) of lower caste, I am preventing a lower caste women to marry the worthy men from their own caste (which is a kind of their right).

ON the otherhand, if I give my daughter to a higher caste guy, I may not have the guilt that I could not find a groom for my daughter much, because I can be confident that my daughter would be in an environment of culture..

Anuloma and pratiloma are examples of pyramidal systems and not yearnings to attain a higher status or caste.
No entry and one way are for all and when its just no entry for certain groups permitting others in an order of priority where certain have no restrictions,some have few restrictions and some are totally prohibited what do you call it other than a pyramidal hierarchy
The presence of so many castes numbering thousands is the result of rampant anuloma marriages and its just in the past century that marriages within specific castes reached higher numbers
Polygamy was the norm across India and before hindu code bill it was in higher percentage in hindusd than muslim till 1961 census. fathers didnt had any issue in giving their daughters as 4th or 14 th wife to a person from a varna higher than them(they had little choice too)but outcasted them if she wished to be the only wife of someone from alower varna.
Your words of higher and lower proves the pyramidal system which i am stressing upon.

polyandry was quiet common and still practised in certain areas and wife stealing (where someones wife is abducted or goes with another)too is existent and was quiet common in the past centuries
I have personal relations in the family where the son born to my relative and his other caste partner was taken as adopted son as he was issueless with the samecaste wife.The adopted son was living the mother who remarried and have siblings from stepfather.
widow remarriage,divorce and remarriage,acceptance of other caste wives where not a taboo for most except those at the top of the pyramid till 2 generations back.Certain communities who wanted a higher status tried to imitate them and tried rigorous restrictons on their community females like prohibiting widow remarriage/divorce etc
My varma friend from the ruling family of travancore was very proud that his caste is the only one with whom namboodiris marry and their children doesnt lose their namboodirihood a honour and when enquired about whether they can marry namboodiris replied that it was prohibited.

What you said is restricted to the travancore samasthanam (& probably the cochin, and wayanad samasthanams).. that can not be generalised across the whole of india..

In Kerala, the marumakka system is followed by nairs, (NOT namboodris), where females own the property and children inherit the gothra thru mother..

/** My varma friend from the ruling family of travancore was very proud that his caste is the only one with whom namboodiris marry and their children doesnt lose their namboodirihood a honour and when enquired about whether they can marry namboodiris replied that it was prohibited.
**/

What is your problem? The nair caste themselves have no issues with it.

and you need yet to answer why the Upper Class of your urban society do not marry Lower class people..

A doctor does not use to marry a nurse.. in some cases, it is the male doctor who marries a female nurse.. but no female doctor ever marries a male nurse?? why?

but why do you need a layering in the first place, why do you need higher and lower castes. Why cant there be just different castes ?

I have been thinking that certain jathi professions are no longer that useful. For example, palm tree climbing will no longer be required. You need to just invent a machine that do it for you. It is also very safe for human life, many Nadars would fall down and get injured.

Layered means, both horizontal and vertical.. in some regions, the jathis are vertically layered (travancore).. in some regions, its horizontally (in all janapadas).. in some regions, its both vertical and horizontal.. In most areas, all these jathis constitute a commune..

My point is that because of this layering, the evils of pyramidal system is avoided.. and also it makes our society flexible and sustainable.. when muslims invaded, they just knocked out the top layer, and the rest of the layers remained as it is.. hence our society & civilizatoin survived..

/** I have been thinking that certain jathi professions are no longer that useful. For example, palm tree climbing will no longer be required. You need to just invent a machine that do it for you.
**/

How did you conclude that palm tree climbing as NO Longer required?

/** It is also very safe for human life, many Nadars would fall down and get injured. **/

This is silly statement.. how many nadars did you find falling and died? And applying your own logic, can we ban all those professions in urban centers, which are risky? Can we ban all Electric Helpers, who climb upon the electric post, because they may fall and get shocked..

Pls come out of such mindset.. If you realise the importance of palm sugar and palm cake, you will not speak like that.. the white sugar is totally harmful to us, and is directly responsible for high incidence of diabetes.. the palm sugar and palmcake are our traditional sugars, which was healthy.. While white sugar contains chemicals and has only fructose, palm sugar contains so many other essential minerals ..

/** How did you conclude that palm tree climbing as NO Longer required? **/
I have told machines can do this job. I have no problem if Nadars own the machine and get the job done.

/** how many nadars did you find falling and died? And applying your own logic, can we ban all those professions in urban centers, which are risky? Can we ban all Electric Helpers, who climb upon the electric post, because they may fall and get shocked. **/
Of course, unless there is sufficient safety, people should not do it even in urban centre.

A nadar can employ machine and develop his safety measures and train people about the safety aspects. But that did not happen and will not happen. Who ever failed to become a doctor or a engineer will be forced to take up these physical “low paid” jobs.

It could even be a jaathi brahmin who finally gets this job of operating the “palm climber machine”. In other words, Its a “secular theft”. stealing naadar job.

/** I have told machines can do this job. I have no problem if Nadars own the machine and get the job done. **/

It is the nadars who should decide whether they need machines or not.. You cannot say ONLY machines can gaurantee safety.. there are so many other simple techniques that are part of nadar’s climbing profession.. i have seen it..

Just look at the attitude of such suggestion.. the urban indians are behaving like a master, treating the entire rural jathis as ignorants, to be educated by them.. an attitude that colonial britishers displayed..

it is beyond doubt that science and technology has made improvements in the last few centruies, and this can be used to make lives simpler to do certain tasks for all. Wherever this knowledge can be used to make the society better it has to be used; I am not forcing any one to use machines. You are trying to say that army should not modernize its weapons. Remember it is the modern nuclear weapons that is making you write this thread in the first place, otherwise anyone could have attacked India.

/** You are trying to say that army should not modernize its weapons. **/

I am not saying that.. we cannot apply same standard to all.. the army’s role is different from the society..

For eg, in agriculture, in the name of modernisation, tractors and other machine tools has been projected as modernisation, and using bullock carts or bulls is projected as backward.. but at ground level, still lot of people use Bullock cart for ploughing and transport, because it is the cheapest modes of transport with minimal maintenance.. a person with two bulls, earns around 1000rs per day, by ploughing & transport, with zero expense.. whereas, a tractor owner has to shell out lot of money for maintenance, for which he has again charge the society..

Also because of tractor, the bulls had lost their important role, and has been sent for slaughter.. it has been a repeated cycle… ie for lack of bulls, farmers look towards tractor, and bcoz of tractor, more bulls are sold..

Earlier, the bulls and cow dung became a natural fertiliser for the fields.. now, the reduction in their population, has led to decline in fertility of the soil..

Urban people cannot understand this, and they always think from capitalistic perspective..

The “innovative idea” of using tractors has kick started a new vicious circle. End result is
1) dependency on tractor manufacturing companies
2) Farmers spend more money to buy and maintain tractors
3) Loss of land fertility
4) Fuel dependency
5) Pollution
6) price increase of the crop produced
7) bulls and cows being sold and lost significance
8) Cow dung replaced with fertilizers
9) health hazards in eating un organic foods

@communism was an attempt to remove class inequality and was the most popular movement across the world and had succeeded in turning the class system upside down and inspite of failure have ensured proper protection for all classes and easy migration from one class to another by means of welfare state.
Removal of inequality among upper/middle/lower is ingrained in all forms of governance and capitalism too promises total disappearance of lower class.I have clearly replied on how reservation which makes people jumps classes is supported by anticaste brigade and if not for reservation procaste people would have never worried about intercaste marriages.

What are these laws, who formulated them.. Why should I accept them ? It was imposed on me.. Do these law-makers accept the traditions of the past in the villages (like making sure Agraharams remain with the Brahmins)? They don’t right ?

Why should I follow the laws of the country, which is enacted by bunch of 500 crooks, and without consulting with me?
When you ask me to follow the laws, that some one enacts, you are forcing me to be a slave to diktats of others.. right? is it not intimidation?

/*
No entry and one way are for all and when its just no entry for certain groups permitting others in an order of priority where certain have no restrictions,some have few restrictions and some are totally prohibited what do you call it other than a pyramidal hierarchy
*/

Is it? Have you not seen roads like “No entry to trucks. 2 wheeler only”

See, jaathi is a classification. So should the truck groups claim this as discrimination against the “truck jaathi”?

this question might sound so dumb because you understand the reason why “trucks are not allowed” in a specific road. May be the road is small, or road can withstand only a certain weight or height restrictions etc.

So once you understand the reason, you will understand the law. Now you do not understand the laws of jaathi model society because you forgot the purpose or got de-linked from the purpose.
Are you willing to shift your focus in searching and understanding the purpose?

/** Layered means, both horizontal and vertical.. in some regions, the jathis are vertically layered (travancore).. in some regions, its horizontally (in all janapadas).. in some regions, its both vertical and horizontal.. In most areas, all these jathis constitute a commune..
My point is that because of this layering, the evils of pyramidal system is avoided.. and also it makes our society flexible and sustainable.. when muslims invaded, they just knocked out the top layer, and the rest of the layers remained as it is.. hence our society & civilizatoin survived..**/

I do not understand what you say. Can you please explain this more. I think the think that makes people averse to caste system is this presence of higher and lower castes – NOT absense of marriage. The highest caste, can enter into the temple of all the castes, but the parayar is forbidden from entering into all temples except his own. He cannot attend even temples which belong to the king. Even leaving parayars apart, it was true even for the Nadars.

Of course, @poovannan is manipulating things. The pyramidal model which he got from ancient Babylon from Hannurabi is forced into the Hindu society, which I totally disagree.

/** I think the think that makes people averse to caste system is this presence of higher and lower castes – NOT absense of marriage
**/

If presence of higher & lower caste, can give them legitimacy to destroy castes, then can the same be applied for urban society for presence of upper, middle and lower CLASS? That’s my question..

In jathi setup, the higher castes have so many restrictions in life, and have to follow disciplined life.. the higher status is out of their virtuous life style..
whereas in CLASS based society, the Upper CLASS is based on Money, Economic & Political power alone.. NOT based on life style.. the upper CLASS people are the loafers, drunkards, and legitimise it in the name of bars, discothe, five star hotels etc.

And upper class people are not subjected to strict life style or code of ethics as it was done in the “so called” upper brahmin caste/varna.

In fact it is this upper class that evades from income tax a lot. The low class gets subsidies in some way or other. All these finally crushes the middle class people who @bhagwad mentions every now and then. The middle class takes the hit every time. This isnt an intelligent way of designing the society too. The response to this stating “we are still evolving” is in appropriate. Evolving from where? Evolving towards where?

Fundamental question is, if we have a working well defined varna model, why should we start from clean slate just because americans did so?

@senthil I am totally confused with the vertical and horizontal layering. There exists no additional privileges as you go down the layers horizontally or vertically and its only in the case of women freedom gets increased for divorce,remarriage,polyandry etc etc when it comes to the lower layers as it suits the patriarchial structure.
The truck and lorry examples are correct when there is easy mobility between the two and not absolute restrictions on one that he can never aspire for driving the vehicle which gives him access to all roads.I started with a second hand cycle and during the finishing years of college landed up with a second hand TVS50 followed by a explorer followed by a new suzuki samurai followed by a second hand maruthi to a ritz
I hope senthil understands that class is easily changeable and there exists a huge group to facilitate that transfer if one just works hard unlike caste

Also the presence of the massive middle class in India prevents the kind of conditions that prevailed during the french revolution. According to senthil, there are just two Indias – the supremely rich and the impoverished poor. He ignores the gargantuan middle class entirely.

/** I hope senthil understands that class is easily changeable and there exists a huge group to facilitate that transfer if one just works hard unlike caste
**/

The issue is NOT about CLASS being changeable.. the issue is about extreme discrimination that upper CLASS people unleash on Lower CLASS people..

/** The truck and lorry examples are correct when there is easy mobility between the two and not absolute restrictions on one that he can never aspire for driving the vehicle which gives him access to all roads.I started with a second hand cycle and during the finishing years of college landed up with a second hand TVS50 followed by a explorer followed by a new suzuki samurai followed by a second hand maruthi to a ritz
**/

This happens within jathi too but in more humane way.. a poor person in a jathi, works hard, establishes his business, buys a car.. but still, he doesnt get any exclusive rights within his jathi.. a poor person within a jathi, and the wealthy person have the same & equal rights over their commune resources.. he still follows the same rituals as that of his poor jathi mates.. he has to invite his relations for family functions, eventhough they are poor..

More over, a person within a jathi, after he progresses in life, helps poor people of his jathi.. he spends a lot of amount for his kula temple, which his whole jathi benefits..

On the other hand, in CLASS based atomised societies, when people move to upper class, they enter in to a different life style, different set of persons, and a different CLUB, which are determined ONLY by money.. he is socially dis-connected to Lower class people, he once was part of..

So the Social Upliftment you boast off is actually a worst thing that leads to more discrimination..

/*The truck and lorry examples are correct when there is easy mobility between the two and not absolute restrictions on one that he can never aspire for driving the vehicle which gives him access to all roads*/

Where did aspiration come into picture here?
Shut down your wavering mind. I gave an anology to make you understand a point. Now you leave the point and start debating on the anology which is just given for example.

Examples are not 100% equivalent. Its just given to make you understand that there are certain scenarios in our today’s context that are similar to that of the past years. Dont waver and deviate from the topic like this.

/** Wait a minute…are you telling me you don’t agree with laws telling you not to hurt other people and let them live their lives?**/
It has been repeatedly pointed out that it has been these laws which have hurt the people the most.

Sanger founded Planned Parenthood in 1916 “to stop the multiplication of the unfit.” This, she boasted, would be “the most important and greatest step towards race betterment.” While she oversaw the mass murder of black babies, Sanger cynically recruited minority activists to front her death racket. She conspired with eugenics financier and businessman Clarence Gamble to “hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities” to sell their genocidal policies as community health and welfare services.

The starting point of the abortion movement was to ensure “unfit” races don’t multiply too much.

Wealthy capitalists who are into population control, want to ensure the third world doesn’t produce too many to challenge their hegemony.

1. True; It is just a statement of facts cannot be refuted
2. The key point is missed, in caste system there is NO universal social status. In class there one.
3. Agreed
4. True statement, but it NOT caste system which enforced people to follow rituals, it is different caste itself which had these rituals, so that knowledge can be transmitted from one generation to another. Caste system can withstand the test of time on a much longer scale than the class one.
5. True, but still there are NOT much inter class marriage.
6. Completely untrue, caste is NOT based on inferiority and superiority of human beings. Caste is a social organization. Caste promotes the best of the democracy. The class system is highly individualistic. But in caste system, an individual takes all his members together. Thus everyone in the society is taken care of, old men, dumb men, handicapped etc. But in class it is not possible. IN that sense it is egalitarian, and people become more unselfish. Still there is free market. So you have positives of both capitalism and communism. In class system there is free market, but the goods are produced by the industries. And all are NOT equal in an industry, it has hierarchy. Further industries have no moral consciousness. Thus the pretense of democracy is false, because it is actually oligarchy, where a few powerful owners of the industry control the economy of the society. This is unstable, and will lead to economic collapse (eg. financial crisis in US 2008)
7. Not true, the is no organized religion called Hinduism. There are spiritual truths and learning, which can be accessible to all. Again, there is caution and restraint followed by the guru.
8. The mobility, does not remove the lower classes, always the higher classes exploit on the lower class. In caste there is no universal status.
9. In caste there is some occupational mobility. There is no force to follow occupation of ancestors. A group of people can split to take up different occupations from a caste. However, it is unlikely that two groups of people from “very different” castes split to form a new castes.
10. Economic gap between members of different castes (leaving the kings apart) is not too wide. But this is the case with class system.
11. False claim, caste has nothing to do with religion.

“clearly the anti-caste brigade has been facing the heat, unable to answer the key questions put forth. The debates in my previous articles are an example.”

You won’t get the answer you want.. We have clearly given detailed responses..

“While the urban society may NOT have castes, the inequality and discrimination is more acute in the form of CLASS system, where the entire society is divided in to Upper, Middle and Lower CLASS based on Money. Their Utopian notion of equality is nailed by this very segregation of people based on money.”

The most important thing is that Class is a relative thing and is not based on Birth which is not in one’s control. As many have already argued, I can’t change my birth, but can control what I earn.. Mobility is the key thing. If there is an equal mobility in caste (which was the case in ancient society as proved by so many examples of ppl in our epic), no one will have any problem..

“So equality actually exists within caste system, whereas there is no equality possible in Urban Class system. This is grave Social and Economic Injustice.”

Again, eventual equality is based on individuals. What is required is the equality of opportunity. That’s why education, health etc. are public systems which should be accessible for everyone. Hence public education and healthcare systems are required (however inefficient they are). If everyone gets equal opportunity, they’ll reach the levels based on ability. This is in complete contrast to the caste system which prohibits mobility by birth..

“And as part of this, they should first enact a law that all upper CLASS people should compulsorily marry people of MIDDLE CLASS and all Middle CLASS people should compulsorily marry people of LOWER CLASS. By this we can easily attain the utopian society based on equality. Are these anti-caste people ready?”

Seriously, the caste brigade don’t understand the meaning of ‘choice’ isn’t it? Either they want to enforce people into birth based system or they want to enforce people into other systems.. They don’t understand ‘live and let live’ at all.. We don’t want to go and kill someone for marrying within the caste. We want the caste brigade also to do the same. Just don’t mess up other people’s lives because they don’t follow your stupid systems. Become human beings instead of being blood-thirsty hounds waiting to kill the next couple doing inter-caste marriage.

“If they marry their daughters to a poor guy, he will instantly become upper class by virtue of the marriage and the equality is attained. Right?”

Just look at the hidden assumptions and the mindset behind this statement.. First, you think that by marrying a rich girl, the guy will become rich immediately, meaning that either the girl herself or her parents are obliged to share their wealth with him because he became her husband and for nothing else. Second, you see marriage as a means of transfer of wealth and nothing else.. Next, you always chose example of a rich girl marrying a poor guy, but not the other way around, because in your stupid world, there is no transfer of wealth here since the guy is already rich and the girl is anyway poor. Again, the assumption here is that the women is OBLIGED to share her wealth with her husband, typical male chauvinism.. No wonder you people can’t think beyond caste..

“Benchmark 1 :
If a woman marries after puberty, she is unchaste.. The later she marries the more unchaste she is. Urban class system promotes late marriage, and thereby sexually abuses women. Its master plan is to make women into whores. Just look at the advertisements.”

My my.. I thought this was a sarcastic comment.. This blog is hitting new lows with the passage of time.. Kudos casteists.. Your real colours are getting exposed..BTW, what’s your benchmark for men? Why’s it that men don’t figure in any benchmarks you people talk abt?

/** My my.. I thought this was a sarcastic comment.. This blog is hitting new lows with the passage of time.. Kudos casteists.
**/

The urban uprooted indians, who force their own women to be item girls and prostitutes, can never understand the virtue of chastity.. its ridiculous that they talk about new low, even after the brutal rape of delhi girl, where the real culprits are shamelessly shielded using juvenile act..

“Take the case of a violinist who is MD in pathology. She is an Indian, but now has taken up full duties as violinist as its more profitable/suitable for family life as well,as she gets to travel the world with her husband. Why waste resources like this on ppl, who may / dont want to be fully committed?”

“Or take the case of Charulatha Mani. BE. Mechanical degree from the top university of TN. Anna University. Now she earns her living singing cinesongs & carnatic concerts. Why waste a seat like this? Always remember, women in modern jobs will lead to Double Income families with very less benefits to the society as a whole.”

Hmm.. so very few cases of women choosing a different profession than their academic qualification becomes examples now? The male chauvinists are having a field day in this blog I think.. Hope they show their chauvinism here in words instead of showing it to real women..

BTW, I can give an equal number of examples of men choosing a different profession and becoming experts in what they do.. Yashwant Kanetkar who writes books on C programming is a Mechanical Engineer by qualification.

Education is just one of the factors in one’s life. That need not be a constraint in choosing a different profession and shining in it. Besides, majority of children in India are forced into education degrees by their parents than choosing on their own. So, it;s not the fault of the individual too. You guys need to come out of a very boxed lifestyle where everything is constrained by rules and regulations. One has to live his/her own life. Others can’t live it. The decisions and the choices are best learnt by the individual himself/herself than remaining a slave to someone else always, be it parents, society, spouse, in-laws etc. Otherwise, he/she can never become a true adult able to handle any situation.

I agree with this comment. With the advent of internet, it has become possible for people to learn much beyond what they thought. (eg. Khan academy etc). People must have freedom to decide what they read and what they pursue.

The anti-caste brigade should understand that one can live their own life, ONLY when there is an economic and occupational freedom.. jathi setup provided this economic & occupational ownership and also self-sustainability.. whereas the people in urban indias have no other option, but to work as Corporate Slaves.. the real ownership of economy rests with very few individuals..

The urban uprooted wonders should realise that they are living in apparent freedom and NOT real freedom.. What they call as “Choosing Profession” is nothing but Choosing Slavery, where they choose another master to work with.. and this “Choosing” freedom is also limited by opportunities available.. and these opportunities are provided by the urban economic system, which sustains itself by raping the nature and rural india..

When this is the harsh reality in which urban rootless wonders lives in, we find it very amusing at them ridiculing the traditional society without any shame, inspite of getting themselves nose-cut in the previous debates..

“The anti-caste brigade should understand that one can live their own life, ONLY when there is an economic and occupational freedom..”

First read the original comment. The poster was linking education with occupation, which I opposed.

“whereas the people in urban indias have no other option, but to work as Corporate Slaves.. the real ownership of economy rests with very few individuals..”

Less than 15% of the country’s population work in the corporate sector. Less than 30% of those in Urban areas work in corporate sector. Don’t know why that hurts you so much. The real employment provider is the SME sector which has grown rapidly after 1991 liberalization.

“What they call as “Choosing Profession” is nothing but Choosing Slavery, where they choose another master to work with.. ”

Again, nothing stops people from starting their own company or enterprise. Those who can afford the risks end up as entrepreneurs. Those who can’t afford them end up as employees. Nothing wrong with both. Whereas in the rigid Jathi system, even if one intends to take all the risks and start a new business, he’s prohibited from doing so.

“we find it very amusing at them ridiculing the traditional society without any shame, inspite of getting themselves nose-cut in the previous debates..’

LoL!! Nose cut? childish blabbering.. We never ridiculed the traditional skills or the advancement in science, medicine etc. We are only against the rigid caste system without which we can still revive our past glory.

/** First read the original comment. The poster was linking education with occupation, which I opposed. **/

The chinese had a system of evaluation.. for every person who pursues learning, 5-10 peasants has to support him by producing food, and other resources.. Here, when people pursue one field of education and then chooses an occupation totally different from what they studied, its a colossal waste.. there is merit in this argument..

Ofcourse, the urban indians, who live by forcibly SUCKING out resources from entire rural india, cannot understand these basic ethics..

My reply was to your argument that everyone should have freedom to choose education.. i am pointing to you that this freedom is available only when your basic necessities are fullfilled by other people..

/** Less than 15% of the country’s population work in the corporate sector. Less than 30% of those in Urban areas work in corporate sector.
**/
Where did you get this statistics ? See the contradiction in your own statement.. total urbanised population is around 30% across country.. and when 15% of total population work in corporate sector, it comes around 50% of urban population who works for corporates.. apart from this, the government workers is entirely different category to consider..

Even if considering your own underestimated statement of 30%, it is a huge population of corporate slaves.. around 20% – 30% of people in urban centers belong to lower class, who are being expoited by this 30%.. Both these segments do not have any ownership of economy or resources.. it is the top 20% upper class who control all resources, and you people call it as Utopian equality..

“Here, when people pursue one field of education and then chooses an occupation totally different from what they studied, its a colossal waste.. there is merit in this argument..”
It’s only few people who do this. Besides, the conditions are totally different today. It becomes a waste only in case of seats in certain premium academic institutions. In most other cases, there is usually surplus of seats (resources) available, especially in recent times.

The other important thing is that in a controlled society like ours, most often, the parents force the children into certain degrees without considering the child’s wishes. So, when he/she becomes an adult, many people find that their interest and wish is totally different from what they were forced by the parents. We need to consider this also.

“Where did you get this statistics ? ”
It is infact quite less actually.

“About 85% of India’s jobs are with “informal” enterprises—those organisations with fewer than ten staff which are not incorporated. Another 11% are casual jobs with formal companies. Only 16% of Indians say they get a regular wage.”

“Both these segments do not have any ownership of economy or resources.. it is the top 20% upper class who control all resources, and you people call it as Utopian equality..”

There’s nothing like that. Whoever has access and affordability can access the resources unlike in the Jathis where resources are denied citing birth and other stupid reasons.

/** Again, nothing stops people from starting their own company or enterprise. Those who can afford the risks end up as entrepreneurs. Those who can’t afford them end up as employees. Nothing wrong with both. Whereas in the rigid Jathi system, even if one intends to take all the risks and start a new business, he’s prohibited from doing so.
**/

This only shows how you urban rootless wonders are living in your own imagined world..

In jathi based society, every family is an enterpreneur, and owns his occupation.. when a person marries and starts a new family, he is supported by his jathi to start a new enterprise.. Swadheshi Jagran Manch, had made a detailed systematic study across india covering hundreds of industrial clusters, and had substantiated with proofs, on how people prospered by the support of jathi, without academic, banking and government support..

On the other hand, your urban system atomises and isolates people, and its a common sense that atomised and uprooted people cannot aspire to be enterpreneurs..

In Jathi based societies of traditional bharath, every people had ownership of land and resources needed for their occupation.. There is conducive atmosphere for taking risk and staring new enterprises..

In your urban system, all resources are controlled by selected few individuals, who are called the upper class, and all other people are just slaves, expecting everything from government for their survival..

So your entire argument is very hollow.. i challenge you to give me statistics on how many people, became enterpreneurs in urban india…

There is another view point..

For any enterprise, it is the people (man power) that is most essential.. In jathi based societies, people live in communes, and come together and do an occupation on sharing basis.. I can cite so many examples..

whereas, in your urban system, it is the western capitalistic model that is possible.. for every enterpreneur, there should be a large pool of workers/employee base, whom he has to employ and extract work and control them through laws and company rules.. This is the worst kind of system, that is unethical and exploitative..

/** That need not be a constraint in choosing a different profession and shining in it **/

The anti-caste brigade, who give sermons on the freedom to choose any profession are totally silent on why the government did not give freedom for people to follow their traditional occupation? This question has been asked many times in the past, but has so far NOT answered..

The recent public statement of RaghuRaman Ranjan, the newly appointed RBI governor, that people should be moved out of agriculture in to service sector is yet another proof on how the urban indians had been continuing their destruction of traditional society.. and yet these morons speak a lot about giving Freedom..

“who give sermons on the freedom to choose any profession are totally silent on why the government did not give freedom for people to follow their traditional occupation? This question has been asked many times in the past, but has so far NOT answered..”

Tell me which government or a bureaucrat stops your jathis from doing traditional occupation like palm sugar industry or any other industry today? All you have to do is start the business and compete in the marketplace like everyone else. If you complain that the market has changed and you can;t compete, it’s your problem of not coping up with the change. Who stops you from advertising the benefits of your products and marketing it just like everyone else?

“The recent public statement of RaghuRaman Ranjan, the newly appointed RBI governor, that people should be moved out of agriculture in to service sector is yet another proof on how the urban indians had been continuing their destruction of traditional society.. and yet these morons speak a lot about giving Freedom..”

You have no idea about economy as I have shown already. So, stop blabbering nonsense routinely (like your gem of a statement that Indians pay 60 times for a product as Americans) like this. When more than 50% of the 130 Crore population depends on one profession, there is an imbalance. Besides, Agriculture depends on a lot of factors like monsoon, irrigation etc. which are unpredictable. While various governments have done little to improve the situation (except states like Gujarat which has implemented so many measures to improve water level and preserve water), more than 60 Crore people sustaining on a single occupation is challenging.

Further, all the people depending on agriculture is not because of its benefits but because they had no other choice. When the population more than doubled from 345 million in 1947 to 1 billion in 2000, so many people followed it simply because it’s their family profession. But due to inheritance, land patterns got changed and we have one of the smallest land holding per person in our agriculture, the details of which I had already pointed out. The result: best practices could not be followed without co-operative farming which did not take off to a great extent and people has to rely on techniques which were not sufficient to meet the needs.

So, it makes sense to rethink the situation and create employment opportunities in other sectors to absorb the excess labour in agriculture. When Raghuram Rajan says it, it doesn’t mean some commandos will come and force people out of agriculture, but it means the government should concentrate on creating infrastructure and laws that enables entrepreneurship. Since India missed the bus in manufacturing due to Nehrivian policies, services is the only hope to produce that many jobs.

/* First read the original comment. The poster was linking education with occupation, which I opposed. */

Even in jAthi system, education had nothing to do with occupation. Anyone can learn anything, but making money out of the learning, outside his jAthi’s vocation, was prohibited by the varna-jAthi framework. Read Danielou’s book on caste system. he very clearly illustrates this by taking an eg. of a zamindar who was well versed in classical music & who preferred not to sing in public, lest the traditional jAthi’s place is usurped by him.

No one would have said no, if a Charulatha Mani or anyone for that matter,wanted to learn engineering but whose vocation was singing even in the varna – jAthi setup.

But they don’t do that. Firstly they are on two or more tracks: Plan A western education + a degree Plan B: something they would really love to do + make money out of it.

In this setup, once they succeed in Plan B they don’t have much use for the degree earned as per plan A, except for status – mongering & moving into higher class via hypergamous marriages, in case of women.

Now all the training under Plan A has gone waste, for the society as a whole. If you can’t see the wastage in such a system, its only your in built bias that prevents it.

Yes.. in our research, we find that there were many “Pulavanars” (Tamil Poets) across many jathis.. the jathis learned manythings that does not interfere in their acharams.. the womens of jathis (classified as dalits) were midwives in many villages..

Every housewife of all jathis had knowledge of basic sidha medicine.. the tribals were expertise in herbals.. we can cite so many such skills..

But these urban people dont consider these as education.. for them, education exists ONLY in colleges and degree certificates..

First of all, something is a waste only if it’s not available in abundance and people waste it. In today’s case, there are more than enough graduates available to do the specific job. In fact we produce more than 4 times the graduates than the jobs available. Hence few people involved in a different profession doesn’t mean a great deal of waste. Except few premier institutions like IITs which are heavily subsidized, there is not much of a waste of resources.

Second and most important that you guys keep avoiding, most of the children are forced into degrees that they don’t like. Hence we see the cases where people choose different profession when they are sufficiently out of the parental control. Other than that, your claim that they do it to get married etc. is gross generalization and full of prejudice, especially against women.

First of all, Services sector doesn’t mean Industrialization. Learn first on what is meant by Services sector.

Next, the land issue is mainly a big issue in central and north India where mineral wealth is available in plenty. States like TN, Gujarat etc. have gladly taken this path and are getting urbanized fast. Hence we see the standard of living much higher than what’s seen in states like Bihar, WB, MP etc.

Again, it’s about various factors. IT is a special cases which has exploded in a decade and hence the demand could not be met if only the specialized graduates are recruited. The other thing is that the other core sectors like Mechanical, Electrical etc. could not generate enough jobs to absorb all the specialized graduates in these disciplines. Today, IT companies recruit even in 3 digits from a single college (1 company recently recruited more than 300 freshers from a single college) but the core sector companies can’t even match this across the whole country. Also, the salary offered by some core companies is much less.

The main thing is that we don’t face a problem of lack of enough graduates in the core sectors due to IT as the cream of the talent is already in the core sectors only.

/** There’s nothing like that. Whoever has access and affordability can access the resources unlike in the Jathis where resources are denied citing birth and other stupid reasons.
**/

Idiotic statement.. whoever has access & affordability will any way have the resources.. the question is “How many people have access to the resources?”..

and you had made a self-goal by your statement by agreeing that ONLY those who have access to resources can become enterpreneurs.. and you have conveniently hidden the fact that most of the resources in urban centers are at the hands of very few, and the lower class people do not have any access to ANY of the their own resources.. the entire beach land once belonging to fisherman community today does not belong to them..

The lakhs of poor people along adyar and cooum river, who once had access to fresh water today forced to live in the Shits that you urban people dump there..

Every available vacant land in urban centers are colonised, and the poor people are forced to live in slums.. and after exhausting all available lands, your urban government destroys all surrounding villages and forcibly acquires their land..

In urban centers, one cannot even PISS without paying money.. one cannot get drinking water without spending money..

On the other hand, in every village, all jathis had access and rights over the resources for their jathi occupation.. No one denies any rights to them, as you people often falsely accuse ..

“ONLY those who have access to resources can become enterpreneurs.. and you have conveniently hidden the fact that most of the resources in urban centers are at the hands of very few,’

Everything is based on supply and demand. When there are more people chasing fewer resources, there’s an increase in demand and hence certain things become unaffordable for some. But the picture you paint is gross exaggeration. Basic resources like water, food etc. are accessible to almost everyone. The control you talk about exists in your imagination and hate.

“The lakhs of poor people along adyar and cooum river, who once had access to fresh water today forced to live in the Shits that you urban people dump there..”

We have discussed it so many times. The slums are created due to urbanization, not because of somebody pushing others out. As I repeat many times, we have a serious governance problem, which you cleverly use as an example to deride the entire system. Just because Indian politicians and bureaucrats messed it up big time, it doesn’t mean the systems don’t work anywhere else in the world.

“On the other hand, in every village, all jathis had access and rights over the resources for their jathi occupation.. No one denies any rights to them, as you people often falsely accuse ..”

Your Jathi system never had to cope up with 130 crore population as it’s today. Besides, your whitewashing of the Jathis’ denial of resources have already been exposed many times in the comments. We had discussed real life examples of people being denied access to water, burial grounds etc. So, don’t pretend to be otherwise.

“What is love ? Why cant you love a girl from some one in your caste ? Or better, why cant you do arranged marriage ? The Hindoo society is designed so that people get chaste in their life span. This would help people, in civilizing themselves, so that a achieving a human birth is atleast partially justified”

Love is not a recruitment camp.. to choose the person according to his/her eligibility, caste, religion etc. It’s a basic human feeling which cuts across so many artificial boundaries man has created. The pre-caste Hindu society was not so venomous and grudgy as the caste morons today who go to the extent of killing couples because they did not marry as per the standards.. Let people choose how they want to lead their lives.. Don’t be a fu*king cannibal hunting down the innocent couples.. You can’t tell others how to justify their human birth.

“Get out of the country.. we dont want uprooted fellows to destroy our society..”

It’s people like you who should go out instead..

“arent there no women in your caste? and just bcoz could not love a rajput girl, you are calling for destruction of jathi..”

Who the hell are you to tell him whom to choose? Again, both the persons above have the same attitude: Love someone from ur caste, because it’s just about relation between any man and a woman. So, if you are a man, all you need is a woman to love, other things are immaterial. Having seen a close friend being tortured by such caste morons in real life due to inter marrying, I can understand how such opinions thrive. Only difference is that people here are learned as well..

Whenever someone’s ask you about your caste then your answer should be to them is:
I am a Brahmin in knowledge
I am kshatriya in valor
I am vaishya in business
I m shudra in service
In the end I am just sanatam dharmi hindu and nothing else..Then say you proud to be a hindu

Inter caste marriage should be encourage..bcoz if people take this step then castesim and religion based discrimination should be stop itself..we all are human being..God never created any caste and religion..even God dnt has any caste and religion…did you know that God belong to which caste and religion..then keep shut your mouth about this stupid varan system and caste system okh.. And only you can make it good or bad this inter caste marriage. Depends upon how much importance u give to these meaningless and stupid values. And how much importance u give to other people who value these meaningless things. U have to see how much u urself r attached to other people opinions. And since u r asking for opinion, it means u r attached to these meaningless things.

//bcoz if people take this step then castesim and religion based discrimination should be stop itself..we all are human being..God never created any caste and religion//

Why don’t you add this one too…since god created us all equal let’s give up sanatana dharma too…since god created us all equal let’s share all our private properties with others and be a socialist…such amateurish arguments have been defeated several times in this forum. Before writing something, have the habit of reading about it.

Keep your narrow minded thinking with you mr vyas okh..you are not able to answering my question that God belong to which caste n religion so you are trying to make me feel down that i asked wrong question no…i will say this things lots of time that God never create any caste n religion n never put anybody into high n low caste this cheap thinking created by mad people n you know very well that people belong to which community..God created just this beautiful world n simple human being…on this world if you like someone weather he/she belong to which any caste n religion dosent matter…we should only see can we spend our rest of life with that person if the asnwer is yes then we should get marry to person…dont ever put caste n religion in your relationships okh….if you still dont understand then i m sorry for you…n will pray to God he will soon send you in to hell..

you having problems with lower caste then what do you wanna say about high caste work n character….The 2012 Delhi gang rape case involved a rape and fatal assault that occurred on 16 December 2012 in Munirka, a neighbourhood in South Delhi, when a 23-year-old female physiotherapy intern[2] was beaten and gang raped in a private bus in which she was travelling with a male friend. There were six others in the bus, including the driver, all of whom raped the woman and beat her friend. Criminals name are Ram Singh,Pawan Gupta,Akshay Thakur,Vinay Sharma,Mukesh Singh they belong to high caste…should any high caste girl n low caste get marry that person who have good character or get marry with these kind of bastard…when we choose our life partner we should see their quality, education, sincerity n nice behaviour not their caste n religion the same boy as do..

if you think so then your thinking is so narrow minded n i must say you are anti brahmin hindu….so its useless to make understand any mental case okh..some time parents can find better life partner for their child but if child fell in love with anyone then its not itches its true feelings which you cnt understand it..life partner will be choose by parents or child what’s the big deal…what matter is he/she should be very nice person n respect other feelings..if they belong to other religion n caste its not a big issue okh..

When anywhere we heard about any crime then some anti hindu says it’s did by lower caste people..then let me tell you the truth..The 2012 Delhi gang rape case involved a rape and fatal assault that occurred on 16 December 2012 in Munirka, a neighbourhood in South Delhi, when a 23-year-old female physiotherapy intern[2] was beaten and gang raped in a private bus in which she was travelling with a male friend. Criminal name are..Ram Singh,Pawan Gupta,Vinay Sharma,Mukesh Singh,Akshay Thakur…they belong to high caste community…your high caste n high class…..what did you now think? mr vyas…n what did you wanna say about high caste RAVAN,DURYODHAN n KANS?

One who thinks himself to be of a high caste is actually low. While one who thinks himself/herself to be of low caste is said to be high caste.As per the scriptures, people are known by their nature and the quality of work they perform..

First go and ask the Upper CLASS and LOWER Class people to intermarry .. then you can come to cate..

Today liberalism, and CLASS system is the most evil thing in this world.. every caste (or jathi ) have certain value system.. but no one in CLASS system have any value system.. ONLY money speaks everything..

the CLASS system has to be destroyed to the core, and jathi is the only other option to do that..

oh hello this is the solution okh if lower caste boy accept high class girl in their family n treated them so well n give respect but in high caste people never ever accept any lower caste girl into their family why….they are also human being….caste n religion is not important….the most important thing is to be nice human being…n today read your this kind of thinking i must say you are not even close to humanity you are devil….n god will surely through you in to hell..

you are talking about class mean talking about so called hindu high caste…..just read this with your open n big eyes….
The brahmin community has been one of the dirty communities which has planned strategically to fool people in the name of god by generating the highest donations in the temple, doing business to fool and loot money in the name of puja, death, marriage, new home… For any occasion, there’s one puja. They charge very high prices and take away all the items after the puja. They have created prostitution in the name of devadasis. They suppress jobs and employment and welfare and equality are destroyed. they have destroyed the Indian medical system. They have killed Indian medical science like siddha vaidhyam and created ayurveda and carnatic music by destroying dravidian music. Even today they have the temples under their control. They say they don’t like untouchables, but they have always been sexually harassing low caste women.

Some people are not like you okh they are doing intercaste marriage high n lower caste n class doesnt matter for them…understanding matter for each other okh..in my family we have its happening n we dont need ot boast it..

if god created all equally, then why do you need identity of nation, language or any other identity? Such thought process is what Rajeev Malhotra calls Moron Smriti.. it needs just an economic shock, to bring you all to the reality..

What steps can be taken to convince the people to accept the inter-caste marriages trend?
It is the responsibility of the younger generation to make their elders realize that the rigid caste system is morbid and has a dark future ahead. The youngsters can take various steps on their part to demolish this system:
• The girl or boy should be introduced as a friend to the family and be allowed to earn their love and respect
• The qualities of the person you love should be highlighted in front of the family members
• Try and learn the customs of each other’s caste. This will enable you to earn the love of the family members
• Try and show your family members how this kind of systems are obstructing the progress of the nation

You people mind your own business and let people to live their life.. your question is like asking what steps can be taken to make all the girls to become prostitute.. urban idiots should stop their idocracy, and strive to destroy their own evil CLASS system

That’s your narrow minded thinking okh..what step means how to convince parents that if boy n girl chose their own life partner for themselves but if caste is coming in their relationship then they can make understand their parents just see the quality n capability n how they are nice…dont judge people by caste n religion judge by their nature n character they have okh idiot..oh God how can you think so down i m sure you are not human being you are a devil n anti hindu….now this is for you okh….A man is great by deeds, not by birth..

You suck up the blood of parents to study in school, in college, and for all your expenses.. and all of sudden, you got your loin itching uncontrolled and throw away the parents and marry yourself.. and you are calling others as devil..

Every person is indebted to their parent and cannot invoke his individual rights, just bcoz this colonial government run by colonial stooges enact a law..

you just shut up okh…if parents can do anything for their own children they give birth,give food, give good education..but they cant give them luck understand..whatever parents do for their childrens that’s their duties okh..parents whatever do for their childrens that’s love n they want to make them happy…n children duty is become a good person n get goood job n help their parents financially n also take care of when they get old….but if parents cnt choose a suitable a match for their own child’s then children have right to choose their own life partner who can understand their feelings n also respect their own parents like her parents okh..if life partner belong to other religion n caste its dosent matter…what matter is they should be loyal,caring n supporting..okh idiot..n children never suck blood their own parents that’s your cheap thinking n just keep it with you…Anyone can have a child n call themselves “a parent”.A real parent is someone who puts that child above their own selfish needs and wants.

Family is not always blood.it’s the people in your life who want you in theirs; the ones who accept you for who you are. the ones who can see you smile and who love you no matter what….both parent n child take care of each other happiness okh if child can understand then parent also can be understand where is their child happiness is n life is when they fell in love okh…but if they dont have any love then parents can bring this beautiful things to their own child’s life…its own your hand dear how you want to live your life always wants to dominate other n grab the happiness of other people n want live a peaceful life..just follow this principle live and let live..this also not your business okh..who want to do love marriage they can who want to do arrange they then do it..

some people want to see everything go wrong for you bcoz nothing is going right for them……is it true? if something happened bad in your life n you can get your love bcoz you dont have gut to fight for their own love then dont think bad for other okh..

what do you mean idiot girls are prostitute…if your mother n sister ever did love marriage they become prostitute just see yourself how down you can think n how down you can go…oh my god..hey just keep your class n caste with you n live with your small thinking forever…i wish god give you death soon so one bad person can be remove for this country…then our India can better like others country…

Gone are the days when marriages were executed by parents; The times when a Punjabi marrying a Punjabi or a Bengali marrying a Bengali was the norm. Welcome to 2013 where inter-caste marriages are quickly becoming the season’s flavors and why shouldn’t they? Everyone knows that India is a diverse land that boasts of being a mother to different cultures. But what’s the point of having so many different cultures when people snarl at the very thought of their integration?
There is something new to learn in different cultures and we, as Indians should feel proud of having such a strong and traditional backbone with us.
But when some of these people get offended at the thought of their son/daughter marrying into a different caste, a sense of anger sweeps me.
What is the problem in a South Indian marrying a Punjabi or vice-versa? Why do educated people talk like uneducated pigs when their family member steps out of his/her caste for marriage? Why do people have to be such haters?
In my opinion, an inter caste marriage should be applauded by one and all as the amalgamation of different cultures will put an end to mindless racism and discrimination on the basis of caste in our exotic land. Wouldn’t you want your next generation to be more peace loving and more socially acceptable to different kinds of people in the world? So, are you ready to take the plunge and applaud inter-caste marriages?

Always put yourself in the other’s shoes. if you feel that it hurts you, it probably hurts the person too……we all are human being okh if we do intercaste marriage its not mean we produce any devil that’s you low mentality thinking n keep it with you always..if you father are belong to different religion n get marry to your mother n then i m sure you wanna be called as human being not bastard okh…so watch your language?

that’s what i am saying.. you put yourselves in the parent’s shoes.. to ditch the parents away , to ditch the community which supported you, for your itching desires is the moronic and cheap mentality.. and it is such people who are the bastards and produce bastards..

Every family have the right to protect its members.. every community have the right to protect its members.. you have to shut up and look after your own business..

you just shut up…..just break all religion, caste n community that’s is my all point okh…bcoz i dont see in one side like you n only want good for our community..God create this world n human being…you stupid people and egoist person devide this society into caste line…god never put their own people into high n low rank…who the hell are you to say other people are low then you . by talking behaving like this you just proved it that you are very lower by you attitude n caste okh….if you want to support then support your india support all indian okh i m not like you who just want support their own community n think good only for our community people okh…you are cheap such a bad personality n dirty person in this world n god will surly give you punish n send to you in a hell..

Senthil, few questions:
1. What is the position of Shastraas with regards to marriage between members of two different Jatis?
2. How did the traditional society handle it when members of two different Jatis wanted to marry?
3. Any instances if/how it happened in the long history of the Jati system?

I have been looking into the traditional justice systems and I find it interesting that as recent as 200 years ago, there was a simple system that a dispute between members of two Jati was settled within the Jati. No body else had a right to intervene or mediate unless they were invited. Not even the king.
Inter Jati issues in a village were settled by the village elders.
Disputes between Jatis that spannned villages were taken to the king.
Sounds to me that this simple self-policing and justice mechanism is what made the indian countryside very peaceful across times compared to similar environment in say, europe or middle-east.

This got me to the question of how inter-jati marriage (or cohabitation) issues were settled in traditional society.
Appreciate your response if you can help me with this.

when a son is born out of brahmana male and kshatriya female, it takes three generations for his lineage to get back brahmana guna, provided successive generations married back to father’s varna..

In case of female child, it will take 7 generations, to get back the brahmana guna..

Since jathi is an actual implementation of varna (like choliya brahmin, pandya brahmin), shastras deal only with the framework (NOT actual instances)..

On intercaste marriage, people excommunicate those couple out of their jathi.. this happened as late as 50 years before.. (i confirmed with my grandfather and other elders)..

There is a very good example to this.. when a section of balija naidus were converted to islam, they were reconverted back, but they lived as separate jathi, and did not mix with original jathi.. that’s the strength of our jathi setup.. if you come out of a jathi, you can make your own jathi..

/** I have been looking into the traditional justice systems and I find it interesting that as recent as 200 years ago, there was a simple system that a dispute between members of two Jati was settled within the Jati.
**/

NOT 200 years ago.. Its happening even today.. the khap panchayat is one example.. and even in south india where jathi setup has weakened to a large extent, many issues has been sorted out thru jathi panchayats..

The problem is that we are moulded to be hostile to our own traditions and ignorant about our own society.. when we break free of this colonial indoctrination and start recognizing our jathis, that will be the real hindu revival..

Thanks for your response.
So you say that the Shastraas address the Varna marriage issues but not Jati marriage issues.
And in practice, people marrying across Jatis were excommunicated.
Were they excommunicated from both Jatis? Or just he boy’s or the girl’s Jati?

Where did the excommunicated couple go to in such cases? Did they move to a different village? How was it dealt with in practice?

From what I see, the couple were not killed for marrying across Jati. I see no evidence of that and wanted to make sure I state it and rule it out before some idiot jumps in saying that they would be killed.

Varna is just a conceptual framework.. jathi is physical implementation of that concept.. so when manusmriti say anything about varna, it naturally applies to jathi too..

-> Both jathis excommunicate on those days..
-> people either move to different village or live in the same village in a different area.. but these are all very very rare and minor issues.. and this is not universal.. depends on region..
-> yes.. they were not killed in most cases.. in very few instances, it happened.. the communists use this for their propoganda..
-> the present day honour killings are because the entire traditional society is oppressed by the urban colonial systems.. the urban commie & missionary coterie which control the entire power structure and intellectual arena, has been treating the entire rural india as criminals.. unfortunately the urban hindus join the chorus with them, and backstab our traditional society..

I am trying to ignore current situation and focus on how it happened in past for a purpose.

If both Jatis excommunicated the couple, then what happens to them and their children? And how can the 3rd generation be rolled back into the original varna/Jati if they are excommunicated?
This is my doubt…. on one had, we have a smriti that requires a set of generations before the lineage is accepted back. On the other hand, the couple will be excommunicated and they have to move to a different place. Would appreciate your help with the reconciliation of these two seemingly contradictory things.

Another question is : if the couple leaves to go to a different village, how will they be recognized there?

the excommunicated couple will start a new jathi :) this is our strength.. in bengal there is a jathi called namadeva brahmins .. they claim to be once brahmins but excommunicated later..

similarly a group of people from balijas (kapus) got converted to islam, and later ahobila mutt reconverted them back to our dharma and got established as separate jathi named kamma naidus

Similarly many anti-caste morons often ask this question.. suppose a westerner wants to convert to hinduism, which jathi he will belong to.. many hindus struggle to answer this.. i simply answered that those who want to convert to hinduism can live as a new jathi..

you need to come out of the monotheistic institutional mindset (abrahamic mindset)..

Whole world think that India has many castes which are main reason of discrimination of people but its very very big misconception of caste system spread around the world to defame culture of India because it was the biggest systematically designed system for people from thousands of years. Now let me tell you what is meaning of varna and caste system in India and how its was started. In Ancient India there were two great saints, one was saint Bhrigu and other was saint Bhardwaj. They met to discuss how to structure a stable society for human being to live proper life, First they recognized the four sources which are:
1. Knowledge 2. Weapons 3. Wealth 4. Land
They decided to make system where nobody has more than one of that. These should not be in one hand, not even two should be in one hand. So those who has knowledge will not have wealth, will not have weapons and will not have lands. Those who will have weapons will rule the country but they will not make policy. They need to go to people having knowledge to seek their permission and advice. Those who are having wealth, their social status will be decided by the how much philanthropy they do not by their wealth. Those who has lands have to produce for the society. In fact none of these four category or “varna” was based on by birth.

All Hindu communities in the country follow the varnashram system of Aryans and have divided the society in four castes – Kshatryas, Brahmins, Vaishyas and Shudras. Sindhis do not have such division in their society. They never followed a rigid caste system. That is why Sindhis are considered to be only businessmen. All members of the society inter-mingle with one another without any consideration of four castes of Aryans. There are no untouchables in Sindhis…..these religion and caste set up by mad and stupid people to control others not by god…who are still mentally sick they are following this castesim blindly..i must say be like all sindhi…tum hindu logo se toh yeh sindhi soh guna ache or intelligent hai..jo jante hai society ko ek kar ke kaise rakhna hai..