Aurorae Lunares

Mamoru had flown off to America and she hadn't heard back from him, so she was feeling lonely and grumpy. Seeing Chibiusa and Hotaru being all happy and holding hands set her off. Which, to me, especially coupled with Hotaru's remark, is pretty indicative of Chibiusa and Hotaru being more than friends.

Luna Crescens

Hotaru and Chibi-Usa are close friends. There are places were even males hold hands like in India. It's all platonic. I haven't seen Hotaru or Chibi-Usa express anything beyond a strong sister-ship. I've even asked a few girls about and they don't see the "romance". When I first saw Crystal opening, I thought that they were implying it from one shot. I didn't know if it represented their purity or what? But I think now they are just inseparable friends.

Lapis Lunaris

That's what I'm talking about. In our culture people are so fast to equate closeness and touching to romance when there is more to look for in such relationships. And sadly if one of them was male not as many people would be debating, because not as many people are accepting of close non-romantic male- female relationships.

Don't forget that once again, women and girls are generally more at liberty to develop such levels of non-romantic closeness than other pairings.

I am the Titan Soldier of Stars and Destiny! Protector of the innocent!
And invincible! SAILOR CRONUS!!
Enemies beware-- for your fate is sealed!

Luna Nova

That's what I'm talking about. In our culture people are so fast to equate closeness and touching to romance when there is more to look for in such relationships. And sadly if one of them was male not as many people would be debating, because not as many people are accepting of close non-romantic male- female relationships.

Don't forget that once again, women and girls are generally more at liberty to develop such levels of non-romantic closeness than other pairings.

Luna Crescens

That's what I'm talking about. In our culture people are so fast to equate closeness and touching to romance when there is more to look for in such relationships. And sadly if one of them was male not as many people would be debating, because not as many people are accepting of close non-romantic male- female relationships.

Don't forget that once again, women and girls are generally more at liberty to develop such levels of non-romantic closeness than other pairings.

That's because we live in a society where LGBTQ characters in fiction are still widely under-represented, especially in the medium of animation. Even now in 2017, you still have anime fans arguing just how canonical is Victor and Yuri's relationship is in Yuri on Ice and a lot of fans on both sides of the argument making the same type of arguments you're seeing here in this thread. Then you do have historical instances where a character was closeted during the show itself or didn't come out until the end or the author outed them after the conclusion like Dumbledore in Harry Potter and The Legend of Korra more recently. In the case of Chibiusa and Hotaru, we have no official confirmations from Naoko either way, both interpretation claim to have "evidence" backing their side up, but until Naoko gets asked about it in an interview or something, neither side is going to be more correct than the other, and it's all interpretive. i would be curious to see what Japanese fandom thinks of this pairing and how it was portrayed in Crystal. But while I do agree that it's important to keep Japanese culture in mind, I'm not sure I agree that one culture's interpretation is more definitive than the other, given how much of a world wide phenomena Sailor Moon is, and given how much Sailor Moon itself draws inspirations from many cultures.

Lapis Lunaris

[quote but until Naoko gets asked about it in an interview or something, neither side is going to be more correct than the other, and it's all interpretive][/quote]

This. This right here, and I keep forgetting to say anything about it.

I think it's worth mentioning that in "closeted" examples, there usually aren't ANY other characters that are homosexual or anything. I don't know anything about Korra, but I do know about Dumbledore, and HP never featured homisexuals anywhere, at least no more overtly than DD himself. Buuut... in Sailor Moon, we have definite confirmation that Ura-Nep are homosexual, and at least in the older anime they featured a few others, long before Ura-Nep made any appearance. It would seem strange not to be open about throwing in another pair that way.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Chibi Usa is clearly intended for Helios, as finding her own prince was a big deal to her, and Helios promised he would wait for her and see her again. I just don't see her breaking that so soon, and I can't see Hotaru being such an unfaithful friend as to get in the way of that.

Also, I have COMPLETELY forgotten to address the very first question regaurding the nude shot of them. That's actually a common form of art in Japan, and there's a name for it. It's a way of showing the closeness of girls/ women, and is not intended to have lesbian undertones (not that it excludes such tones). I wish I could remember what it's called though. >_<; Aarrghhh!

I am the Titan Soldier of Stars and Destiny! Protector of the innocent!
And invincible! SAILOR CRONUS!!
Enemies beware-- for your fate is sealed!

Luna Nova

BFF or les, or somewhere inbetween - I think that's just a matter of personal interpretation (it could even be intentionally left ambiguous by the production staff, so that the audience could have room for various interpretations).

Luna Crescens

This. This right here, and I keep forgetting to say anything about it.

I think it's worth mentioning that in "closeted" examples, there usually aren't ANY other characters that are homosexual or anything. I don't know anything about Korra, but I do know about Dumbledore, and HP never featured homisexuals anywhere, at least no more overtly than DD himself. Buuut... in Sailor Moon, we have definite confirmation that Ura-Nep are homosexual, and at least in the older anime they featured a few others, long before Ura-Nep made any appearance. It would seem strange not to be open about throwing in another pair that way.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Chibi Usa is clearly intended for Helios, as finding her own prince was a big deal to her, and Helios promised he would wait for her and see her again. I just don't see her breaking that so soon, and I can't see Hotaru being such an unfaithful friend as to get in the way of that.

Also, I have COMPLETELY forgotten to address the very first question regaurding the nude shot of them. That's actually a common form of art in Japan, and there's a name for it. It's a way of showing the closeness of girls/ women, and is not intended to have lesbian undertones (not that it excludes such tones). I wish I could remember what it's called though. >_<; Aarrghhh!

Haruka and Michiru are older characters and their sexuality adds to their mystique persona that makes them fan favorites and in the 90s anime at least, Haruka and Michiru are presented in a heteronormative femme/butch dynamic. Chibiusa and Hotaru are younger characterless that don't as easily fit into this butch/lipstick lesbian dynamic. Even among a lot of Western fandom that are otherwise progressive and supportive of Haruka and Michiru, there are a lot of fans who are still uncomfortable with the shipping Hotaru and Chibiusa under this notion many fans still seem to have that homosexuality is something people only experience at an older age. Given this, I can see either Naoko or her editors being pressured to keep the nature of Chibusa and Hotaru's relationship ambiguous to avoid attracting controversy. We definitely know of other instances where Naoko was pressured by her editors to change aspects of her story to avoid causing controversy with her younger readers like changing the ending of the first story arc. I won't dispute that Helios is Chibiusa's destined lover but I don't see how that would disqualify any possible same-sex feelings she may have. Bisexuality is a thing that exists and Chibihusa falling in love with someone of the opposite gender doesn't suddenly negate any bisexual feelings. Bisexual people are still bi even if they're with someone of the opposite gender.

There is also a trope that you sometime see in anime called lesbians until graduation where women are portrayed as experimenting with same sex feelings until they reach a certain age. This trope can have problematic issues of it's own but it's interesting I've read an interview with Naoko where she described Haruka and Michiru's relationship under the "lesbians until graduation" terms when she was responding to the SOS's infamous Prince Uranus controversy. Whether it was intended to be platonic or romantic, growing up as a gay Moonie, I was always inspired by the non-canon gay couples like Chibiusa and Hotaru and Rei and Minako as much as I was by Haruka and Michiru. And I always saw Chibiusa and Hotaru's deep bond as a role model for how relationships should be even if it's more platonic than romantic in nature.

Lumen Cinereum

It's all a matter of interpretation and taste because frankly until we get a sequel starring Chibiusa's adventures in Crystal Tokyo we have no idea who she will end up with in the future because, as much as she's 900 years old, mental-wise she is still a little kid and has all of the time in the world to explore different relationships if she chooses to. As much as the series is obsessed with the idea of destined lovers, the reality is that most people go through many relationships before finding the one. This is completely different from Usagi and Mamoru who we know exactly what happens, past, present and future. Chibiusa's future is not fixed like that, and honestly it makes her character more interesting in some respects because it's much more open to interpretation.

Luna Crescens

I don't think so.
I believe that with "even though we are girls", Hotaru meant that they were a exception, but not for being lesbians or such.
She said fate would unite them as friends instead of lovers. Because uniting lovers is what fate usually does, you know?
It was just her being "heteronormative". Just like even with all the queer cast in the show, the Sailor Moon characters have made heteronormative remarks in the past.
It's Japan, after all. Even if they are more comfortable with queerness because of certain cultural issues, they are a strict, traditional society who isn't willing to see straight and gay relationships as "equal". So when SM characters refer to "couples", we already probably know which type of couple they are talking about.

Lapis Lunaris

Eh, you guys can keep talking about real-life social issues in Japan and the meanings behind dialog, and all that culture stuff.

As for me, I'll simply say "Stuff all that" and conclude with:

Hey, if the majority of Wizard of OZ fans ship Dorothy and Ozma, and THE Alan Moore can make a graphic novel that's basically about Wendy, Alice and Dorothy having sex with each other, then what's stopping me here?

At least as far as the manga is concerned, Hotaru uses the phrase "女のコ同士" (literally girl companions). Like the English "girlfriend" or "gal pal," it's somewhat ambiguous, being used both to describe platonic friendships between girls and same sex female romantic relationships.

At least as far as the manga is concerned, Hotaru uses the phrase "女のコ同士" (literally girl companions). Like the English "girlfriend" or "gal pal," it's somewhat ambiguous, being used both to describe platonic friendships between girls and same sex female romantic relationships.

Luna

I agree with Tuxedo Kevin. All Hitaru meant at least the way I interpret it this way, is that we were destined to meet, not in the star-crossed lovers way, but as friend. Japanese people usually percieve the red threat of faith as something that connects two lovers, Hotaru just wanted to make a difference. I wonder how do Japanese people understand it, as there are cultural stuff involved.

Luna Nova

In Indian I'm told there are at least 10 words for love. Sometimes our quest to lock in facts using our culture's lens fails against the slippery slope we are trying to classify. Chibi went back in time to make friends and she definitely made a BFF. My understanding of any nudity in Sailor Moon anime is that it implies purity not sexuality. From that perspective I belive the intro is primarily implying birth and purity. While my personal opinion is that they are not a romantic couple and it is unlikely (but not impossible) they would become one I think Uranus sums it up beautifully with "Does it matter?". I'd argue the bond between Chibi and Hotaru is more than love, it is eternal.