This is an interesting site and the circumstances surrounding my finding out about it are curious.

I got a piece of mail today from this ministry asking me to write a letter to GW to support Israel quoting Genesis 12:6.

What I find curious about this is I have never gotten any type of messianic or support israel literature in the past. How did I get on their mailing list? Is it my recent surfing of similar sites? I suppose I wonder is how just by merit of my surfing and asking for information via e mail did they get my actual address which I am certain I did not submit. One wonders how private our lives are on the internet. I am a little creeped out about it.

When surfing their site (today) it is clear that the lion's share of their mission is to help convert Jews to Jesus. (Clairification that I have not surfed their site up until today) However they seem very strong in their stance to support Israel as a nation of G-D's chosen people not as who they dream to be. There is nothing anti Semetic in their literature that I can see (it may be considered anti Semetic to wish that all Jewish people come to know Jesus however) but once again they take a strong evangelical stance and I would assume that is where the money sent to them goes (but hey if I send a hundred bucks they will send me a menorah!) :D

How do you feel about their support for Israel? Would you rather wish a group such as this go away and not send letters of support for Israel because of their clear evangelical stance?

Below is a copy of the "form letter" they wish people to sign and send to GW:

The nation of Israel is a strong ally of the United States and deserves our unequivocal support. As a Christian supporter of Israel, I remind you that the Bible promises God's blessing for those who bless the Jewish people, and God's curses upon those who curse Istrael, or her people. At the critical moment in US history, it is imperative for the future of our nations that we remain steadfast in support of Israel's right to exist, and that we oppose any nation which threatens Israel's people or sovereignty. Please do all that you can, in your pivotal position in the US government, to make sure that our country is aligned with Israel in support of their nation, which has been a faithful friend to the United States. We must be aligned against the enemies of Israel, who have time and again show their hatred and duplicity.

So would you consider this an olive branch of peace or a wolf in sheep's clothing?:eek:

This is an interesting site and the circumstances surrounding my finding out about it are curious.

I got a piece of mail today from this ministry asking me to write a letter to GW to support Israel quoting Genesis 12:6.

What I find curious about this is I have never gotten any type of messianic or support israel literature in the past. How did I get on their mailing list? Is it my recent surfing of similar sites? I suppose I wonder is how just by merit of my surfing and asking for information via e mail did they get my actual address which I am certain I did not submit. One wonders how private our lives are on the internet. I am a little creeped out about it.

When surfing their site (today) it is clear that the lion's share of their mission is to help convert Jews to Jesus. (Clairification that I have not surfed their site up until today) However they seem very strong in their stance to support Israel as a nation of G-D's chosen people not as who they dream to be. There is nothing anti Semetic in their literature that I can see (it may be considered anti Semetic to wish that all Jewish people come to know Jesus however) but once again they take a strong evangelical stance and I would assume that is where the money sent to them goes (but hey if I send a hundred bucks they will send me a menorah!) :D

How do you feel about their support for Israel? Would you rather wish a group such as this go away and not send letters of support for Israel because of their clear evangelical stance?

Below is a copy of the "form letter" they wish people to sign and send to GW:

The nation of Israel is a strong ally of the United States and deserves our unequivocal support. As a Christian supporter of Israel, I remind you that the Bible promises God's blessing for those who bless the Jewish people, and God's curses upon those who curse Istrael, or her people. At the critical moment in US history, it is imperative for the future of our nations that we remain steadfast in support of Israel's right to exist, and that we oppose any nation which threatens Israel's people or sovereignty. Please do all that you can, in your pivotal position in the US government, to make sure that our country is aligned with Israel in support of their nation, which has been a faithful friend to the United States. We must be aligned against the enemies of Israel, who have time and again show their hatred and duplicity.

So would you consider this an olive branch of peace or a wolf in sheep's clothing?:eek:

I agree don't give away the store and become indebted, but overall you are speaking of America the are writing their government to appeal to lend the support. Do you not trust America?

I realized on the most part that most people would say they didn't trust them. I don't think it will ever be realistic to expect that all Christians will put away their proclivity toward evangelizing. Other than that, what would it take to trust a group like this?

I'd have a hard time trusting America, and I always get culture shock when I'm there.

Then again, I don't really trust any country's government. That's just me.

I think the problem with fundamentalist Christian groups who raise money for Israel is that they're doing it to bring Jews back to Israel and to encourage us to rebuild the Temple. Ever hear of that little thing called the Dome of the Rock? want to start World War III?

Some of them do. Look at the huge popularity of the Left Behind series and other media of that ilk.

Sadly, fundamentalist Jews (not the majority, but we have some right winners, and they're usually in positions of great publicity in Israel, and are starting to make their way into positions of power in the Israeli judiciary system as well) want their king and they want him now.

So...the fundie Christians want us there so we'll all be slaughtered (save for a few left over to admit we're wrong and Jesus is god), and the fundie Jews want to take the fundie Christian money because Israel needs it, and hey - maybe they can advance their own messianic agenda and kill all the infidels for starters (that would be code for 'Christians') in Israel. I wouldn't say that, but I have actually heard zealous Israeli Jews talk about it.

NOW - most Israelis are secular, as I imagine most Americans are. Most people don't want wars, and take the whole messiah thing (Christian, Jewish, or other - lots of religions have a messianic component) with a pound or two of salt.

But I can see a potential really unholy alliance here - fundy Christians think they can use the Jews to achieve their ends, fundy Jews think they can use the Christians to achieve theirs, and it could all turn into one great big bloodbath.

Optimistic, amn't I? I hope it never comes to that, but I don't trust extremists, and many of the people involved in this on either side are.

It's more complicated than that, but I think everyone involved in this has read their Machievelli.

I didn't copy your post, so I will be operating from memory. (Boy are we in trouble or what????)

First, I'm probably with Gavrie on this one. Maybe more optimistic, but essentially I see the same problems.

IF the support of Israel was support because Israel has a right to exist ...(much of the land was purchased outright, and another portion won in a DEFENSIVE war, plus the nation came into being under international auspices).... and be defended, and NOT because of religious theology, I'd feel safer in supporting it.

What worries me is that TOO MANY (not all, but TOO MANY) of the fundamentalists who "support" Israel do so while working to engineer their vision of the "end times", which in no-ones theology is pleasant for the Jews. And the idea of a bunch of fanatics essentially forcing the issue of the temple mount just to get Jesus to return scares the tar out of me. And, as Gavrie pointed out, there are fanatics on the Jewish side who would potentially hook up or at least take advantage of the other fanatics... can we spell w-a-r? Heck, the Islamics are doing their best right now to stir up trouble on the temple mount as it is. If they keep it up, it won't take much to get other fanatics all riled up and ready to fight.

What I would LIKE to see is Christianity take seriously the edict from the RCC (can't remember the name of the paper/declaration) in which the RCC acknowledges that no-one reading the Tanach would come up with the "revelation" of the NT, and that the Jews have their covenant with G-d and Christians have theirs... so that both are on similar tracks that will not ever converge, but instead more or less are parallel to each other.

THEN whatever support Christianity offered Israel would not be tainted with the idea of "we'll support you because eventually you'll have to admit we were right all along and give up your religion and culture for ours"... and would be one religion / people supporting another religion / people JUST BECAUSE IT'S RIGHT.

I can hear Gavrie now saying "Dream on, Printerlady, dream on...." ... and I intend to!

In the Chinese civil war, Mao Zedong was the leader of the Communists and Chiang Kai-Shek was the leader of the anti-Communist Nationalist party (the Guomindang). Obviously, they had very diffierent ideas of what the future of China should be.

However, despite their very real differences, they both faced the same enemy when the Japanese invaded in force in 1937. Despite their differences, China would have no future -- either socialist or capitalist -- if it was not free and independent but under Japanese imperial rule.

So, there was a contradiction -- two countervailing tendencies in their policies, politics, and desires. They both wanted China free and independent but they had different visions of what that would mean. Mao wrote an essay title On Contradiction where he explained the theory of political compromise in terms of Marxist philosophy -- even though cooperating with the Guomindang would in one sense be bad for the Communist cause, it was at the moment necessary for the preservation of Chinese independence.

In the same moment, the concerns that Gavrie and TPL state are very real. They are one side of the contradiction. On the other hand, regardless of their motives or desires, evangelicals still want to help Israel and Israel needs all the help that it can get. That is the other side of the contradiction. It should theoretically be possible to accept enough help from the evangelicals that it benefits Israel and takes advantage of their enthusiasm and money but does not endanger Israel (or the world).

Extreme caution is necessary, though. In Germany in the early 1930s, the country was split down the middle between Communists and anti-Communists. The most forthright, outspoken, increasingly stronger anti-Communist faction was, of course, the NSDAP or Nazi party. The Nazis made no secret, though, of their desire to completely overthrown the government and remake it in their own image. Yet, they were popular but not yet popular enough to win control of the legislature and government. The other conservative bourgeois parties considered the threat of communism to be the greatest single danger to which everything else paled in comparison. In January of 1933, they made the choice to form a coalition government with Hitler and the Nazis. They thought that he could be appeased by the office of Chancellor and two ministers in the cabinet. They thought they could control him.

TPL: I think you're referring to the decree Nostra Aetate from the Second Vatican Council.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is backed by the full authority of the Magisterium, teaches that Jews were the first to hear the Word of God and our religion is a response to divine revelation and that the gifts of God, when granted, can never be revoked. While the Church must teach that Jesus is the sole means of salvation and that the Church is the sole conduit through which grace enters the world, they are not so narrow as to say that one must explicitly believe in Jesus or else go to hell. The Church cannot help but wish that all would come to receive the fulness of salvific grace through Jesus and the Church, but they do not state that grace is unavailable through other means. Rather, all religions contain some form of truth and grace -- the fulness of truth and grace, however, is in the Catholic Church.

Here's an interesting article from a professor at Georgetown about how pluralism and non-supercessionism can be reconciled with Jesus as universal savior.