Anyone who wants to see strong female characters trivialized, lobotomized and sexualized should see X-Men: First Class. Moira McTaggert went from being a geneticist and all-around badass in the comics to some sort of junior Fed who gets hit with every sexist put-down imaginable. She stripped off in her very first scene, Xavier mind-****ed her to erase her memories and in her last scene her superiors treated her like a moron.

Much as I hate Hill in the comics I'd rather she retain her clothes, her credibility and her dignity in the movie. Happily, Marvel Studios has done a great job of presenting interesting, strong women, even to the point of building characters up from the comics versions. I hope they continue to do so.

OMG, again, Xeno... co-signed. Hard. This is also why I have some issues with other CBMs that shall heretofore remain nameless. I love MCU's female characters. Especially Pepper and Peggy. The filmmakers and actresses found ways to build female characters who are formidable in their own right. Since I adore Cobie Smulders and Joss Whedon and how he writes females (most of the time) I have high hopes for Hill in The Avengers.

OMG, again, Xeno... co-signed. Hard. This is also why I have some issues with other CBMs that shall heretofore remain nameless. I love MCU's female characters. Especially Pepper and Peggy. The filmmakers and actresses found ways to build female characters who are formidable in their own right. Since I adore Cobie Smulders and Joss Whedon and how he writes females (most of the time) I have high hopes for Hill in The Avengers.

Marvel has done an incredible job of portraying its female characters as strong individuals who are full participants in the stories. In contrast to X:FC, all of the major female characters in the MCU had their statuses upgraded when they were translated to the big screen. Pepper became an executive assistant and later CEO; Betty went from pure damsel-in-distress to Bruce's equal as a scientist; Peggy commanded troops as well as being a tough agent; Jane was cast as an astrophysicist instead of the nurse/adjunct of Thor's alter-ego. They weren't just there to be rescued, ogled or demeaned, but instead had their own parts to play in the story.

Marvel should be applauded for getting it so right with the women who inhabit their universe. Certain other franchises could take a few lessons from them in how to portray women who don't have to strip off or dumb-down in order to be considered useful.

Marvel has done an incredible job of portraying its female characters as strong individuals who are full participants in the stories. In contrast to X:FC, all of the major female characters in the MCU had their statuses upgraded when they were translated to the big screen. Pepper became an executive assistant and later CEO; Betty went from pure damsel-in-distress to Bruce's equal as a scientist; Peggy commanded troops as well as being a tough agent; Jane was cast as an astrophysicist instead of the nurse/adjunct of Thor's alter-ego. They weren't just there to be rescued, ogled or demeaned, but instead had their own parts to play in the story.

Marvel should be applauded for getting it so right with the women who inhabit their universe. Certain other franchises could take a few lessons from them in how to portray women who don't have to strip off or dumb-down in order to be considered useful.

And yet: there's only one female on the MCU Avengers team, and she's a Russian femme fatale sexpot in a catsuit.

Show me Wasp. Show me Ms. Marvel. Show me Scarlet Witch. Show me Shulkie. Hell, show me Tigra. Show me any one of those, and then I *might* agree that Marvel Studios is "getting it right" when it comes to superheroine empowerment.

Right now, the X-series is the only one that's doing any justice to its female characters.

"I knew there was something wrong. It just took a while to dawn on me, or maybe I was just afraid to think it, but... you survived the destruction because you caused it. Raina wasn't the only one changed in there, and I'm pretty sure the DNA results that I'm running right now will confirm that there's nothing wrong with the data in my head Skye. There's something wrong with you." - Leo Fitz

And yet: there's only one female on the MCU Avengers team, and she's a Russian femme fatale sexpot in a catsuit.

Show me Wasp. Show me Ms. Marvel. Show me Scarlet Witch. Show me Shulkie. Hell, show me Tigra. Show me any one of those, and then I *might* agree that Marvel Studios is "getting it right" when it comes to superheroine empowerment.

Right now, the X-series is the only one that's doing any justice to its female characters.

In the latest X-movie, as previously stated, the female characters got treated like **** all the way through. Somebody bought into that whole "female empowerment through stripping/prostitution" thing Frank Miller has been selling because every woman in the show except Raven was a sex worker at some point or impersonated one. (But Raven is basically naked most of the time and tried to seduce Erik for no particular reason.) Let's not even talk about the Lingerie White Queen. She has been fantasy pin-up fodder from jump, though, so I guess having her lead a troupe of strippers/hookers is just par for the course.

It's interesting that you dismissed BW as a "femme fatale sexpot in a catsuit" while in the next sentence bemoaning the lack of female heroes in the movie. Black Widow might be wearing a catsuit, but she's hardly on the canvas merely for window dressing. It has already been stated that she isn't going to be a damsel or relegated to love interest status. Maria Hill and half of SHIELD also wear similar outfits; Hawkeye is outfitted to display his manly charms; even Coulson turns up in a SHIELD jumpsuit in one promo shot. Would you dismiss them as easily?

Also, most of the heroines you named as preferable to BW wear some variation on the "sexy swimsuit" in the comics. She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel wear extremely high-cut thong suits, Wanda wears a strapless version of same, while Tigra (a personal favorite of mine) wears a string bikini. Compared to the way those characters are typically dressed, BW's costume is positively prudish. It's also functional and practical, something that can't be said of a latex thong bathing suit and thigh boots, with a stylishly retro domino mask and a sash that's only going to catch on things.

While I would love for there to be more than one heroine in the movie, I'm perfectly happy with the one who is there and how she has been portrayed. Natasha isn't super-powered but she is a very believable badass, something I can't say about every female action hero. She has been treated respectfully by the writers, if not by fans, something Whedon can be expected to continue. BW hasn't been sent off to infiltrate a brothel or strip joint (so far), nor is sexuality the be-all and end-all of the character. Eventually other heroines will be added to the mix, as Feige has said that the team's roster will change in sequels. Wanda will never appear, sadly, but Ms. Marvel is a safe bet, with or without her trademark swimsuit. I don't hold out much hope for Tigra (maybe on EMH) but one day the Wasp will be rescued from Wright's development hell and brought on board. (That despite many male fans saying that she's boring and useless. I wonder why that is?)

In the latest X-movie, as previously stated, the female characters got treated like **** all the way through. Somebody bought into that whole "female empowerment through stripping/prostitution" thing Frank Miller has been selling because every woman in the show except Raven was a sex worker at some point or impersonated one. (But Raven is basically naked most of the time and tried to seduce Erik for no particular reason.) Let's not even talk about the Lingerie White Queen. She has been fantasy pin-up fodder from jump, though, so I guess having her lead a troupe of strippers/hookers is just par for the course.

It's interesting that you dismissed BW as a "femme fatale sexpot in a catsuit" while in the next sentence bemoaning the lack of female heroes in the movie. Black Widow might be wearing a catsuit, but she's hardly on the canvas merely for window dressing. It has already been stated that she isn't going to be a damsel or relegated to love interest status. Maria Hill and half of SHIELD also wear similar outfits; Hawkeye is outfitted to display his manly charms; even Coulson turns up in a SHIELD jumpsuit in one promo shot. Would you dismiss them as easily?

Also, most of the heroines you named as preferable to BW wear some variation on the "sexy swimsuit" in the comics. She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel wear extremely high-cut thong suits, Wanda wears a strapless version of same, while Tigra (a personal favorite of mine) wears a string bikini. Compared to the way those characters are typically dressed, BW's costume is positively prudish. It's also functional and practical, something that can't be said of a latex thong bathing suit and thigh boots, with a stylishly retro domino mask and a sash that's only going to catch on things.

While I would love for there to be more than one heroine in the movie, I'm perfectly happy with the one who is there and how she has been portrayed. Natasha isn't super-powered but she is a very believable badass, something I can't say about every female action hero. She has been treated respectfully by the writers, if not by fans, something Whedon can be expected to continue. BW hasn't been sent off to infiltrate a brothel or strip joint (so far), nor is sexuality the be-all and end-all of the character. Eventually other heroines will be added to the mix, as Feige has said that the team's roster will change in sequels. Wanda will never appear, sadly, but Ms. Marvel is a safe bet, with or without her trademark swimsuit. I don't hold out much hope for Tigra (maybe on EMH) but one day the Wasp will be rescued from Wright's development hell and brought on board. (That despite many male fans saying that she's boring and useless. I wonder why that is?)

Tough luck Cherokeesam, xeno has you beat here hands down. I have to agree with every word she has said.

On the other hand I don't think that portraying a woman's sexuality is demeaning at all. It is an inherent aspect of a woman's nature. Female sexuality attracts males leading to sex and species perpeptuation. It's an inherent and essential part of nature. Sorry if this offends anyone.

Tough luck Cherokeesam, xeno has you beat here hands down. I have to agree with every word she has said.

On the other hand I don't think that portraying a woman's sexuality is demeaning at all. It is an inherent aspect of a woman's nature. Female sexuality attracts males leading to sex and species perpeptuation. It's an inherent and essential part of nature. Sorry if this offends anyone.

That's a valid point only if you're watching porn to get in the mood. Most movies aren't about species perpetuation. You're not supposed to watch a woman in a movie with your dick, the only thought in your head being about humping her.

Theres nothing wrong with showing female sexuality. Real women characters don't have to be emotionless gun-toting dudes with vaginas. Based on Whedon's previous experience writing female characters I have high hopes for Black Widow and Maria Hill in this movie.

That's a valid point only if you're watching porn to get in the mood. Most movies aren't about species perpetuation. You're not supposed to watch a woman in a movie with your dick, the only thought in your head being about humping her.

I can't believe that you just wrote that, actually.

I can't believe you have such a poor understanding of reality and human nature. Sexuality permeates every aspect of our life on a day to day basis. This includes music, finances, entertainment, basic day to day apparel, etc., etc., etc. EVERYTHING. You need to do some reading and understand human beings a bit more.

The very fact that they chose an attractive woman like Scarlet Johannson to play Black Widow relates to sexuality. As males we would inherently be less interested in her character if she were unattractive.

There is a difference between displaying natural alluring sexuality and being displayed purely as a sex object (as would the case with porn).

I agree with you about most of those, except for Jennifer's Mystique, who was easily one of the best parts and most prominent and interesting characters in XMFC. Also, while Paquin's Rogue doesn't even remotely resemble the ass-kickin' redneck girl from the comics, she was still a very prominent lead in the X-trilogy, and her character was in no way demeaning or dumbed-down.

So, with Jean, Deathstrike, Kitty Pryde, Rogue and not one but *two* Mystiques to their credit, yeah, the X-series has done a fantastic job with portraying empowered women with, er, powers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xeno000

It's interesting that you dismissed BW as a "femme fatale sexpot in a catsuit" while in the next sentence bemoaning the lack of female heroes in the movie. Black Widow might be wearing a catsuit, but she's hardly on the canvas merely for window dressing. It has already been stated that she isn't going to be a damsel or relegated to love interest status. Maria Hill and half of SHIELD also wear similar outfits; Hawkeye is outfitted to display his manly charms; even Coulson turns up in a SHIELD jumpsuit in one promo shot. Would you dismiss them as easily?

Also, most of the heroines you named as preferable to BW wear some variation on the "sexy swimsuit" in the comics. She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel wear extremely high-cut thong suits, Wanda wears a strapless version of same, while Tigra (a personal favorite of mine) wears a string bikini. Compared to the way those characters are typically dressed, BW's costume is positively prudish. It's also functional and practical, something that can't be said of a latex thong bathing suit and thigh boots, with a stylishly retro domino mask and a sash that's only going to catch on things.

While I would love for there to be more than one heroine in the movie, I'm perfectly happy with the one who is there and how she has been portrayed. Natasha isn't super-powered but she is a very believable badass, something I can't say about every female action hero. She has been treated respectfully by the writers, if not by fans, something Whedon can be expected to continue. BW hasn't been sent off to infiltrate a brothel or strip joint (so far), nor is sexuality the be-all and end-all of the character. Eventually other heroines will be added to the mix, as Feige has said that the team's roster will change in sequels. Wanda will never appear, sadly, but Ms. Marvel is a safe bet, with or without her trademark swimsuit. I don't hold out much hope for Tigra (maybe on EMH) but one day the Wasp will be rescued from Wright's development hell and brought on board. (That despite many male fans saying that she's boring and useless. I wonder why that is?)

Wanda has been portrayed for most of her comic book life showing less skin than a nun. For most of her career, she wore a pink body stocking that covered her arms, legs and torso with the red corset over top; the only skin she showed was her face. It's only in the last decade or so that artists have tried to **** her up; mainly in Ultimate form.

She-Hulk wears a prim one-piece; and she's a bodybuilder. Not exactly pornstar material for the vast majority of horndoggy teenage boys.

Ms. Marvel's one-piece is similarly prim by today's standards. Hell, Wonder Woman shows more T&A and cleavage than Carol, and she's supposed to be the poster girl for female empowerment.

And Tigra, while she wears a bikini, is covered in fur. Fur. 'Nuff said.

And Wasp? Wasp has never dressed sexy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamantium Man

That's a valid point only if you're watching porn to get in the mood. Most movies aren't about species perpetuation. You're not supposed to watch a woman in a movie with your dick, the only thought in your head being about humping her.

The very fact that they chose an attractive woman like Scarlet Johannson to play Black Widow relates to sexuality. As males we would inherently be less interested in her character if she were unattractive.

There is a difference between displaying natural alluring sexuality and being displayed purely as a sex object (as would the case with porn).

I'll let that bolded bit speak for itself. See below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlord X

I can't believe you have such a feeble understanding of reality and human nature. Sexuality permeates every aspect of our life on a day to day basis. This includes music, finances, entertainment, basic day to day apparel, etc., etc., etc. EVERYTHING. You need to do some reading and understand human beings a bit more.

Teehee. I'm a middle-aged, bisexual female who's done everything. I'm also a biologist by training. I don't need to read up to understand things, you know.

But that's beside the point. We're talking about the presentation of women in media. I'm claiming women don't need to be sexualized to be attractive, and that they can be serious movie characters while wearing clothing that's not sexually revealing. Are you telling me you're only paying attention to a woman when you can see her boobs? Because this would prove some theories I've had regarding males.

Seriously, though, what's wrong with engaging the brain when watching movies, instead of watching them just to get sexual titillation?

And on topic, I'm hoping we'll get a kick-ass Maria Hill who's not afraid of talking up to Fury, and who'll tell Tony Stark he's being a dick when he's being a dick, all without needing to be a sex object.

There's a difference with being secure in you sexuality and being a sex object. Hint: it's got to do with showing cleavage where it's not necessary. Also, newsflash: unattractive women can be secure in their sexuality. They can also be kickass movie characters.

If people feel that female sexuality in any way on film is a bad thing then you guys must have real problems living in the real world. Kudos to you guys. Subject dropped.

Gee, yanno what? I haven't had "problems living in the real world" for the past 45 years, and don't expect any for the next 45, either.

Female sexuality is just fine in movies where it is warranted, and blatantly exploitative and pointless where it is not warranted. If *you* choose to need to see sexuality *all* the time when it's not really there at all, sounds to me like *you* have the problems, sir.

Female sexuality is just fine in movies where it is warranted, and blatantly exploitative and pointless where it is not warranted. If *you* choose to need to see sexuality *all* the time when it's not really there at all, sounds to me like *you* have the problems, sir.

That goes against your claim about Black Widow though, because none of that is true of her. Her sexuality in Iron Man 2 was warranted because she needed Tony to hire her and keep her around in order to get the info she needed.

__________________

Quote:

"I knew there was something wrong. It just took a while to dawn on me, or maybe I was just afraid to think it, but... you survived the destruction because you caused it. Raina wasn't the only one changed in there, and I'm pretty sure the DNA results that I'm running right now will confirm that there's nothing wrong with the data in my head Skye. There's something wrong with you." - Leo Fitz

That goes against your claim about Black Widow though, because none of that is true of her. Her sexuality in Iron Man 2 was warranted because she needed Tony to hire her and keep her around in order to get the info she needed.

Well, the way I see it, if a woman can lead a man around by his dick because he disengages his brain as soon as he sees her cleavage, then more power to her. It's what's been working for women for ages, after all. And if it makes the man on film look stupid, then the woman isn't being sexualized, imo.

Black Widow isn't named after a spider that bites off the head of the male spider she copulates with for nothing.

Well, the way I see it, if a woman can lead a man around by his dick because he disengages his brain as soon as he sees her cleavage, then more power to her. It's what's been working for women for ages, after all. And if it makes the man on film look stupid, then the woman isn't being sexualized, imo.

Black Widow isn't named after a spider that bites off the head of the male spider she copulates with for nothing.

Ok, we seem to agree here... but I thought you were using Black
Widow as a reason why Marvel Studios is not on par with the x-women in the femme department.

__________________

Quote:

"I knew there was something wrong. It just took a while to dawn on me, or maybe I was just afraid to think it, but... you survived the destruction because you caused it. Raina wasn't the only one changed in there, and I'm pretty sure the DNA results that I'm running right now will confirm that there's nothing wrong with the data in my head Skye. There's something wrong with you." - Leo Fitz

Belief is something you need in church. I'm a scientist. I know exactly where I am where human sexuality is concerned. No belief is necessary.

And if you think the real world implies that women need to be sexualized, then you're the one with the problem. I suggest an attitude adjustment, stat.

And now the subject is well and truly dropped.

I'll keep my attitudes just as they are thank you (especially since I never said women need to be sexualized, just that there is nothing wrong with some degree of sexuality, male or female, on display) and the world will agree with me and not with the futility of hyper-feminism.

Now the subject is dropped.

But if you feel like it feel free to pick it up (its on the floor amidst the rubbish over there) but I will waste no more of my time on the topic.