ALL I use is scripture, with understanding. I get back feel good interpetations, and the total rejections of the sayings of Jesus. It does not bother me, I'm used to that.I noticed you had no easy answer for why God would send Moses then seek to kill him. Seems you are being willingly ignorant.

i dont see this saying he tried to kill moses???

even so, what does it prove?? NOTHING:

Deu 32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.

Exd 4:23 and I say unto thee, Send away My son, and he doth serve Me; and -- thou dost refuse to send him away -- lo, I am slaying thy son, thy first-born.' Exd 4:24 And it cometh to pass in the way, in a lodging place, that Jehovah meeteth him, and seeketh to put him to death; Exd 4:25 and Zipporah taketh a flint, and cutteth off the foreskin of her son, and causeth [it] to touch his feet, and saith, `Surely a bridegroom of blood [art] thou to me;' Exd 4:26 and He desisteth from him: then she said, `A bridegroom of blood,' in reference to the circumcision. Exd 4:27 And Jehovah saith unto Aaron, `Go to meet Moses into the wilderness;' and he goeth, and meeteth him in the mount of God, and kisseth him,

i just dont see it as i follow the subject??

ol well

chuckt

« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 01:56:04 PM by chuckt »

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2

Jaareshiah

In the parable or illustration of the "wheat and weeds"(tares, King James Bible) at Matthew 13:24-30, Jesus likens the "kingdom of the heavens" to a "man that sowed fine seed in his field" and which was later 'oversowed with weeds in among the wheat' by an "enemy", with him providing an explanation at verses 36-43. This parable or illustration is also interconnected with the illustrations of the "mustard grain" at verses 31,32, the ' woman who mixed leaven in with her flour '(meal, King James Bible) at verse 33, and with the "dragnet", at verses 47-50.

In the fall of 29 C.E., not long after Jesus baptism, he began to make known the "good news of the kingdom", saying: "The appointed time has been fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near."(Mark 1:14) And over the course of his 3 1/2 year ministry, he repetitively emphasized the "kingdom", a heavenly government, using many an illustration to teach regarding it's truths and that God conceived, following Adam's rebellion in the Garden of Eden.(Gen 3:15) The unveiling or revealing of the "kingdom" began to occur over a period of some 4000 years. But with the arrival of Jesus as the Christ in 29 C.E., the "kingdom" was now explained with the use of illustrations. Thus, Jesus established truths concerning the "kingdom", with those accepting these truths being the "fine seed".(Matt 13:24)

However, in the parable or illustration of the "wheat and weeds", Jesus expected a change regarding the "kingdom". In his illustration, he says that following the sowing of the "fine seed", the "sons of the kingdom"(Matt 13:38), by the "Son of man" Jesus Christ over 3 1/2 years (Matt 13:37), he then says that "while men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds (Greek zizanion, tares, King James Bible, "sons of the wicked one"[Matt 13:38]) in among the wheat, and left."(Matt 13:25)

Jesus most likely referred to the poisonous bearded darnel (Lolium temulentum), which it's poisonous properties are believed to stem from a fungus growing within it's seeds and closely resembles wheat until maturity. At this time, it can readily be distinguished from wheat by it's smaller black seeds. This, together with the fact that the roots of these "weeds" become entwined with the wheat, would make it most inadvisable to pull up the "weeds" at an early stage.Thus, in giving direction to the "slaves of the household", the "master" told them to let both the "wheat" and "weeds" grow together, "that by no chance while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them."(Matt 13:29,30) Thus, a considerable period of time would pass until it was time to ' collect the weeds '.

Who though, is the "enemy" that sowed "weeds" in among the "wheat" ? Jesus identifies him as "the Devil". Thus Satan, after Jesus had laid out the principles and foundation of the "kingdom" while on the earth, began to infiltrate the "kingdom", using "weeds" or "sons of the wicked one." How ? The apostle Paul, in giving parting counsel to the older men from Ephesus, said: "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."(Acts 20:29,30)

Hence, not long after, from within the the Christian congregation, there arose men ("weeds", "tares") who began to speak "twisted things", distorting the teachings of Jesus Christ. These professed to follow Jesus, but instead were counterfeit Christians that began to grow within the congregation that Jesus had established, even while the apostles were alive.

The apostle Peter wrote to fellow Christians, in about the year 64 C.E., that "there came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owners that brought them,...Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with coventousness they will exploit you with counterfeit words."(2 Pet 2:1-3)

Peter, was thus warning true Christians that there would be a "falling away" or apostasizing (Greek a·po·sta·siŽa, literally "to stand away from", and has the sense of "desertion, abandonment or rebellion." [Ac 21:21]), of the teachings of Jesus. From within the Christian congregation would this occur, for both Paul said that "from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things", and Peter said that "false teachers (will be) among you" that will "quietly bring in destructive sects". Especially following the death of the last apostle, John, in about 100 C.E., did this "falling away" or apostasizing begin to flourish, as Jesus said, "while men (the apostles) were sleeping". There was now practically no one to restrain or hold back this wave of apostasy.

The apostle John, in about 96 C.E., wrote: "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour."(1 John 2:18) Hence, even at that "last hour", true Christianity was being overtaken by the "antichrists"(meaning "against [or instead of] Christ)", "weeds", counterfeit Christians.

Within a period of less than 300 years from the time that Jesus established the Christian congregation, the wheat field of Christianity had been overrun with the "weeds" of apostate antichrists to the point where Constantine the Great (himself incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as "Christianity", with the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.

Hence, there arose a "leavened" or apostate Christianity, one that is corrupted.(Matt 13:33) It is flourishing as the churches of Christendom, for just as the "mustard grain" grew into a "tree", the individual religious organizations (churches), that profess to be Christian, are like the "birds of heaven", with each one finding "lodging among (Christendom's) branches".(Matt 13:32)

A prophesy by Isaiah directs one's attention that true Christianity, though infiltrated with "weeds" during the course of over 1900 years (' growing together until the harvest',Matt 13:30), from the days of the apostles, would once again be reestablished in the "final part of the days", our time period. Isaiah was inspired to write: "it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."(Isaiah 2:2-4, American Standard Version)

During the "latter days", our time period now, angels will soon ' collect the weeds and burn them with fire ', these to be destroyed (Matt 13:39,40), during which time "the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."(Matt 13:43) Hence, true Christianity would once again flourish in these "latter days", even though "weeds", counterfeit Christians, are still abounding until God's time to have these "collected and burned with fire" during the "conclusion of a system of things".(Matt 13:40, "end of the world", King James Bible)

Thus, Jesus fully expected true Christianity to be corrupted and gave several illustrations that showed this. We are now living during the "harvest" or "conclusion of a system of things" and thus God is soon to destroy the "weeds" or "tares", counterfeit Christians and whereby true Christianity would be clearly discernible for honest-hearted persons.

1 Corinthians 15:20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Paul talks about himself having the firstfruits of the Spirit, and James says the apostles are 'a kind' of firstfruit.

Romans 8:23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

James 1:18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Thus, the firstfruits have already come it seems (or in the process now), and next, the harvest:

1 Corinthians 15:23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

But I like to think of myself giving to God the best part of my energy, intellect, and emotion (as I think many of us do) as a type of firstfruits offering--

9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey; 10 and now I bring the firstfruits of the soil that you, O LORD, have given me." Place the basket before the LORD your God and bow down before him. 11 And you and the Levites and the aliens among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household.--Deut 26

Yep. When He comes, those who are His in this age, and then comes the millineum, the harvest, wheat to the barn, tares to the fire. Just the way He said it would happen. Terrible events are on the verge of happening on the earth, we see the beginnings of them now, the sealing of the saints is nearly complete. Redemption is drawing near.

Malachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

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Matthew 7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

On the other hand, there is a cyclical quality to the harvest. This metaphor is used often. God uses the farming metaphor because he is growing something. Adam, his first son, is a husbandman, a farmer himself, originally created to dress and keep the garden of God.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. --Gen 2

In the sense of a cyclical harvest, this does not just happen once at the end of the age, but is a continuous process of planting, growing, and harvesting. The harvesting, this harvesting for the kingdom of God, began during the ministry of Jesus.

35Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together.--John 4

We are 'harvested,' then, as soon as we believe, crossing over (translated) from death to life. Jesus is the Lord of the harvest, and we, the believers, are his angels harvesting in the field--the sower and reaper rejoicing together!

Luke 10:2He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

Yep. When He comes, those who are His in this age, and then comes the millineum, the harvest, wheat to the barn, tares to the fire. Just the way He said it would happen. Terrible events are on the verge of happening on the earth, we see the beginnings of them now, the sealing of the saints is nearly complete. Redemption is drawing near

Terrible events have been "on the verge of happening" for THOUSANDS of YEARS dusty!

Are you so blind... as to not see this? MAN has been RAGING against MAN since the BEGINNING!

Your observation continues with more TIME oriented observations... Instead of, in the SPIRIT, beholding SPIRITUAL and ETERNAL principles...

Those with the message of the Gospel have thought to be in the END TIMES since the beginning of its presentation... PAUL stated (believing himself a LIVING witness to our redemption):

(1 Thess 4:16-17)16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first... 17 then ...WE... which are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord...

Malachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

These verses say nothing to support your DESTRUCTIVE message dusty...

As you continue to clip a verse here and there in an attempt to establish your negative doctrine, adding into the mix, a pinch of NON Scriptural terminology (MILLENIUM), to merge with your recipe of SELECTIVITY, and DEFEAT... trying to depict GOD as are HUMANS... SELFISH, PARTIAL, and UNREASONABLE...

Conveniently leaving out quoting this verse in the prior context:

12 and ALL NATIONS shall call you BLESSED; for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith YHVH of Hosts...

and THIS ONE:

15 And NOW we call the proud happy; yea, they that WORK WICKEDNESS are set up, yea they that TEMPT GOD are EVEN DELIVERED...

Noting UNBIBLICAL/Theological sidetracks, such as the "MILLENIUM" (religious/theological term invented by men)... in and endeavor to establish your self-inclusive, poppycock...

No vision that NOW is the DAY ...OF... SALVATION... (making it future)...

If you looked it up you'd discover the Greek original word Millenium is pasted over is plural, unlike the English one: "Thousands."

Yeah, you don't discuss or reply. I've repeatedly put before you clear scriptural facts that contradict your doctrines and you do not respond.

The next event (possibly happening already for who is in the realms to know?) on the prophetic calendar, the beginning of Tabernacles, is the Barley Harvest. That has no specific date on the calendar but is determined by the maturity of the barley when it had enough substance to roast and not burn up in the fire. Barley in Hebrew means "beard." We speak in English of the "whiskers' the grain head has. We don't acquire a beard until we are old enough. It was animal's and poor people's food, so illustrating humility. It represents the sons of God who have been tried as though by fire and have obtained actual substance of the presence of God and are Mature enough in His nature with true lowliness of heart to be harvested, which is to be called up into a higher dimension in Christ. This is a thing of the Glory beginning to be made manifest. Wicked men contesting this cannot prevail. The tribulation that is coming we will bring, "having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when our obedience is fulfilled." The wicked will be ashes under our feet in that day.

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

The fields are already white for harvesting. What did Jesus mean by this? What harvest is he talking about?

The first harvest of the year is the barley harvest. This happens at the time of passover. The barley ripens first of the grains, before the wheat. The passover, the barley harvest, the feast of unleavened bread, and the sheaf offering are all bundled together.

5On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover.

6On the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.

7On the first day you shall have a holy "calling together;" you shall do no servile or laborious work on that day.

8But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days; on the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall do no servile or laborious work on that day.

9And the Lord said to Moses,

10Tell the Israelites, When you have come into the land I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest.

11And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, that you may be accepted; on the next day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it [before the Lord].

12You shall offer on the day when you wave the sheaf a male lamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering to the Lord.--Lev 23

The firstfruits of the grains, the first crop to ripen in the spring, is the barley. It is said this was the staple of the poor and the animals, the poor man's wheat.

Matthew 5:3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Then what makes the fields white? At the same time that the barley ripens, the flax is in bud. We see this in exodus 9 where 'bolled' refers to the white bud of the flax --occurring at the same time as the barley is ready for harvest ('in the ear'). It is from flax that the linen of the priests are made.

Exodus 9:31And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled.

Leviticus 16:32And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:

This 'white harvest' then is the harvest of the firstfruits sons of God, harvested at passover, when Jesus was crucified and then resurrected from the dead, the firstfruits of them that slept, the firstborn of many brothers. These are those who put on the garment of Christ, presented as a sheaf offering to God the Father, a promise of what is to come.

1 Peter 2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

As for argueing about scriptural beliefs and interpetations, I listen to what Jesus says, and what backs what He said, and disputeings about all manner of things that are supposed to be happening now that obviously according to Jesus are not I do not respond to. Whether one believes what I record is not a problem for me. Every one's faith shall be tried to see what gold is contained in it. If one has little, even what he thought he had will be taken from him, meaning proven wrong. One of us will be proven more correct at the judgement seat of Christ. I trust what I know, as I see you have put your trust in what you believe. We'll see what His judgement is.

1 Peter 1:7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

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Matthew 7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1 John 5:5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Hi Peace, I'm not disagreeing with you, particularly, but I think there are different harvests for different groups of people. I realize you are talking about the wheat and the tares, but this dropped out of the discussion for me as we were talking about it.

I used to think there was something mysterious and complicated about being an overcomer, but now I see that this is simple really, --an overcomer is one who believes. Everything points to this group as the barley harvest, the sheaf offering, the passover, the Lamb of God, the royal priesthood. After Christ, the overcomers are the firstfruits. Or maybe a better way to put it is that it is the resurrection of Christ in a person which renders him an overcomer, or, as Paul puts it, 'to live is Christ.'

And, if you believe something, you will act on your belief, thus the all the metaphors about bearing fruit.

The overcomers--the barley harvest--the first of the resurrection.

Revelation 2:11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

As concerns Christ's reserection in you, if you are in Christ, you have died to the world, and have no works. You can not sin, because your human body is accounted dead because it is carnal. You have the ernest of the Spirit, not the fullness.

Romans 8:10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

No one is changed yet, that will happen at the time appointed.

1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Untill that happens we are in the condition Paul spoke of.

Romans 7:15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

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Matthew 7:14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1DO YOU not know, brethren--for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law--that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive?

4Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

5When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].

--Romans 7

1THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.

That is what the judgment from the Mercy Throne is according to, "The law of the Spirit of life and liberty in Christ Jesus." This reveals that those things according to "the law of sin unto death" in so much taught as how God judges or what is coming cannot be right.

---James Rohde

« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 12:13:36 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

You asked Molly this but would just like to say that my understanding of the second death is that as the first death and resurrection are totally related - 1st death then life, the lake of fire is the second death, and that is when the dead of the second resurrection (the resurrection of the damned) are raised. I believe that they are raised to life from the lake of fire when they believe, repent and submit.