AstroDebate—What’s the Ruler of Virgo?

A very popular series here on Skywriter last year was my series of tests designed to measure the strength of various chart features including the planets, the elements, and the modes. There was just one I never got around to—the test for the element earth. The reason for this gap is that the rulerships of two of the three earth signs—Taurus and Virgo—seem questionable. This makes it hard to come up with an estimate of that element’s score.

The rulership of Virgo, however, has been vigorously debated for years, at least since I began studying it in the late 1960s. Many astrologers had a longstanding discomfort with Mercury’s dual rulership of Gemini and Virgo. Mercury just never felt right for Virgo.

I had to agree. How I fathom the nature of any planet is to observe people who have it prominent in their charts in one of the following ways, ranked from the strongest on down:

Conjunct the Ascendant

Conjunct the Sun

Conjunct the Moon

Conjunct the Midheaven

When I observe people with Mercury in those positions, they’re like Geminis on steroids—they can talk you to death. They’re not grounded, focused, and practical like Virgos.

One theory about the ruler of Virgo in those Linda Goodman days when so many of us began studying astrology was that there was another planet yet to be discovered between Mercury and the Sun. Astronomers believed it was there, gave it the name Vulcan, and kept watching for it during eclipses. Some even swore they caught glimpses of it.

Many of us younger astrologers rooted for Vulcan—Star Trek was still in reruns, and who didn’t love the very Virgoan Dr. Spock? Later, when space exploration and better telescopes failed to show any trace of such a planet, that theory was regretfully discarded. (LATER: Mitch Lopate sent me a link to this interesting post on his blog that ties this era all together: Gene Roddenberry meets a Vulcan .)

My next crackpot theory (of which there have been many) was that Virgo was ruled by the asteroid belt as a whole—all those details, you know? Then people started using dozens and dozens of individual asteroids in charts, which made me dizzy. My ultimate conclusion was that perhaps the asteroid belt ruled the mutable signs.

Chiron was discovered on November 1, 1977. (See the discovery chart here: Chiron and Friends – Chiron’s Discovery.) Astronomers tend to name newly discovered heavenly bodies after one of the Greek or Roman myths, and astrologers rush to fit the qualities of that body in the chart to the mythical being it is named for.

We take the myth, point by point, and affirm that those are the qualities associated with that planet, never simply starting with observation rather than jumping to conclusions. That was the case with Pluto, which we hardly knew what to do with in those early days, and it has been the case with Chiron. I predict that it will be true of Sedna and Eris as well.

There’s a problem with that hurried approach. When we start with a theory—a preconceived notion of what is true—then we interpret everything we see in the light of our theory. When events or personality traits don’t really match the theory, we spin it until it does.

It’s human nature to want instant closure, to be uncomfortable with uncertainty, but what would be wrong with a wait and see approach? What if we simply gathered data on what people were like with certain planetary configurations or what happened under transits of that body? Lots and lots of data, over the course of several years, without cherished theories to distort what we are seeing?

We’ve done some great data gathering on a number of things here on Skywriter—like our series last summer on minor aspects. Joyce Mason is starting to do that with her Chiron Research group.

Speaking of Joyce, who’s done a brilliant job leading two Chiron related Q&A sessions for us this month, she DOESN’T claim that Chiron rules Virgo. Here’s what she had to say in her session on natal Chiron:

Myself, after 30 years of mostly ignoring Chiron, I’m gradually coming to pay attention and to think that possibly, perhaps it rules Virgo. More so than Mercury, anyway. So I’m about 65% convinced, but am perfectly comfortable with not knowing for sure.

So what about you, Readers? What heavenly body do you think rules Virgo and why? Leave your vote in the comment section. And if we reach some sort of conclusion, I’ll do the test for measuring the earth element in your chart. Deal?

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Responses

I was just about to mail you, in order to ask you to devote some time/space in your blog about Vesta. I recently read a couple of articles about it, and I feel it might be our ruler. It’s all there, I mean, seriously, this asteroid pretty much covers all aspects of our duality:

I’m not sure about Vesta, but I will say that I think you summed us up perfectly. Frankly, most descriptions of Virgo miss it altogether. They make us sound like prudes in a constant state of either worry or self sacrifice. Ugh. So, thank you for getting us right!

Thanks Lee, that’s very reassuring, -it’s good to know I’m not imagining things!
P.S. You do realise you just used the P-word, right? :)

By: VR on February 19, 2011 at 12:56 pm

PSS. It caught my attention cuz Virgos rarely use it. I don’t use it much, either. I certainly wouldn’t use it to describe my spelling on this blog! :roll:

By: VR on February 19, 2011 at 1:20 pm

I’ve been studying Chiron since early 1978, before it was named Chiron. With the help of some friends, I was able to get the early positions (a couple months around the discovery position) converted from Right Ascension to Zodiacal Longitude, and began plugging it into charts without knowing the mythology later connected to it when it was named for the Centaur.

In the first few years after discovery, the astrological world seemed to have five ‘camps’ when it came to Chiron rulership. Some concluded it had no rulership (my mentor Al H Morrison was one of these….since Chiron is basically a huge Comet Nucleus, Al said no comet can rule a sign.) Others, for various reasons, gave it rulership over Virgo (Barbara Hand Clow states this rulership in her book as though it is a proven fact), Libra (I was one of the early proponents of this theory, and astrologer Jonathan Dunn still swears by it), Scorpio (I think this was spearheaded by the writings of Tony Joseph), and Sagittarius (a logical assumption that a Centaur would rule the sign of the Centaur, and was supported by the writings of Zipporah Dobyns who wrote in depth about what she called the 12 letter astrological alphabet.)

But over time, I began to see that Joyce was right on the mark. Chiron doesn’t rule a sign, but rather, it rules a process. The process begins at Virgo and reaches its culmination in Sagittarius. This explains why different people focused on different parts of those four signs….each was zeroing in on one part of the process.
Joyce can give you an excellent description of the process, but let me give an example here to bring it home.

1. A person has been having some digestive difficulties they have pretty much ignored, until one day the pains reach a point where the recognize consciously that there is SOMETHING wrong that needs to be fixed. They recognize there is a problem, something out of kilter, and need to take action. Virgo
2. This person seeks help, looks for advise on what to do for the problem. He perhaps goes to his physician for a one on one consultation. Libra
3. The physician gives him a plan, perhaps including a prescription, and a change in lifestyle. If the doctor was correct in his assessment, and the person follows the doctor’s plan, his life will be transformed; if the patient decides to ignore the doctor’s plan, his life could be in danger of ending. Scorpio
4. If the patient followed the doctor’s plan, and it was correct advice, the patient heals, and has a new, healthier outlook on life. He also is now in a position to share what he has learned with others, to advise or teach others what they should do if they experience the same issues. Sagittarius

Hopefully the readers here will realize that is an extremely simplification of the Chiron Process, but at least it will give you an introduction.

When I first began investigating the Chiron process I did what any astrologer does with a new tool….I applied it to my own chart, where I have Virgo on the 7th cusp and Sagittarius on the 10th. Sure enough, whenever something major hit my natal Chiron by transit I noticed something that needed to be dealt with in the 7th house arena (relationships), and saw that I ended up with an entirely new perspective on 10th house things (career, dealing with the public). So I started applying it to all of the charts of friends, family, celebrities….and time after time this Chiron process was clearly seen. (I use the chart of author Stephen King in one of my talks. He has Chiron in Scorpio in the 4th, and in his case the Chiron process was connected to him turning to writing horror stories which led him to heal from his many, many fears.)

You are of course welcome to theorize Chiron as ruling any sign you want. Most great discoveries come from a person starting off with an initial theory. But also remember that most great discoveries would not have been made if the discoverer was sure his theory was fact at the beginning, because this would have closed the explorer off to any ‘fact’ they discovered which did not fit their theory. If you believe Chiron rules Virgo, use that as your starting point…..but be open to what the universe has to show you and you too may discover that you start using the Chiron Process.

Zane, thanks for your shared support of my Chiron Sector theory and your great example of the Chiron process.

What I really had to comment on: I was born just 18 hours after Stephen King and a time zone away. He has Sag Moon, I have Capricorn. His Chiron in Scorpio is in the 4th; mine’s in the 6th near the DSC. I am always chuckling at our points of commonality, starting with our both being writers. I love mystery writing as well as writing about the mysteries of life. The 3 short stories I’ve written in the last year or two all involve death. It’s a kick to see how these things operate between BD twins, or in our case, near-BD twins as he was born the day before me.

Above all, I commend, support, and feel exactly the same way about people starting with their personal point of resonance and staying open about Chiron’s continuing discovery. (Erminie Lantero was spot-on with the title of her book during the early discovery years, The Continuing Discovery of Chiron.)

Whether we’re discussing if Chiron rules Virgo or other rulership theories … or other facets of Chiron … the open dialogue among everyone interested is so “Chiron’s way.” He trained heroes to express their unique skills and abilities in those moments they are most needed. Everyone who cares has something to contribute to the continuing discovery. Until the essence of Chiron’s meaning gels to consensus, our understanding remains a work in progress. Open mindedness will be at the heart of continuing to learn about the healing to wholeness process.

Such a pleasure to have you here, Zane, and to have your input on the question. Very sound thinking, and clearly based on all your years of research and observation. I’m sorry that we’ve never met, and hope we will do so at UAC 2012. Donna Cunningham

You might be on to something Donna! As a Virgo with Jupiter in Virgo, I had alarm bells going off yesterday.
Looking back to the recent past, Chiron transits have brought literal & powerful transformation in my life. The timing was precise and the results profound.

Hello Donna,
As one with an “off the charts” Mercury score (65) that outscores my other “off the charts” BIG planets, I would like to approach this question in a bit of a different way. I am not at all wedded to Chiron as the ruler of Virgo, but I am prepared, for the fun of it, to make a convincing argument in support of that position (both ex husbands expressed their opinion that I missed my calling by not becoming a lawyer, as I can out talk; out argue just about anybody!) AND in the service of my Aquarian sun, my argument is, to put it politely, perhaps a bit nonlinear.
Here I go (and this is the truth, I already had these thoughts running around in my head):
One of the most contentious topics among people today who consider themselves Christians, is the notion of the immaculate conception, that is , a Virgin giving birth. A thought that has been getting lots of air time(no pun intended) in my head for the past several weeks, as I work on the science of higher orders of complexity of consciousness, is that once something becomes “real” in 3D, linear consciousness, it resonates with its “reality” in a higher order of consciousness (eg. 4th dimensional consciousness is considered the realm of archetypes; of myths.). SO I think the issue of the immaculate conception is laid to rest, NOT because the fundamentalists have convinced me to take the Bible literally and NOT because some of the esoterics have convinced me that there is a planet on the other side of the rainbow where virgins have babies all the time. No. My argument is that in the realm of consciousness where the essence of the Immaculate Conception exists, it is “real” just as much as we have made it “real” in our world for virgins to have babies. Thank you In -Vitro Fertilization!

Okay, you may wondering where the heck is she going with this. (Please remember to have patience with me. I am a raving Gemini type–I usually come up with a great succinct punch line but only after I have completed the entire dissertation.)

In the spirit of this argument, enters Chiron–half man; half horse. Have we not succeeded in crossbreeding critters of disparate species? I don’t mean the kind of inter-species breeding that led to dogs or donkeys (or is it mules??). I mean the kind that crosses a rabbit with a cat or a hedgehog with a guppy. We’re there, folks! Is it not feasible that we could actually have, sometime in the future, beings who are half human and half horse?

So, why not put Chiron, the half horse and half man in charge of the sign of the perpetual Virgin who birthed a half man: half god? Makes sense to me. (Warned you I’m an Aquarian!)

I’m not so sure about Chiron as a ruler for Virgo. There doesn’t seem to be much earth about him, more water. As someone with four planets and MC in Virgo I feel somewhat qualified – now isn’t that very virgo of me? I also never felt the connection with Mercury as a ruler. I felt more connected to Pluto, but that’s probably because Pluto rules my chart. Too bad about Vulcan not actually existing, Donna. I remember looking forward to him – he sounded soo hot!

” I also never felt the connection with Mercury as a ruler.I felt more connected to Pluto”
Me too, Natalie! Virgo/Scorpio/Pluto: there’s definitely a connection there! I’ve checked this out with non-plutonian Virgos, too. Imo, it stands true in most cases. I think we should rally to claim it’s exaltation!! What do you think? ;)

Hello Donna,
I appreciate that my Mercury alter ego has just left a message and I don’t want to take up too much AIR TIME (heh, heh!) However, my high scorers in the world of the Big League(U, N, and P all “off the chart” too) are not prepared to let poor Mercury get the last word. It’s just that the concept of Chiron spanning Virgo to Sag inclusive makes so much sense to my UNP gang as it feels like it is exactly what I have lived over the past six years, beginning around the time of my Chiron return. Borrowing, with respect,from Alan Oken’s work, I have finally become one with my horse–not a small accomplishment for someone with a Sun square Saturn and Opposite Pluto, Scorpio Rising and Neptune trine Uranus and Sun while transiting Pluto’s been sitting on my nVenus conjunct nNode for eons! (Chiron is 1 degree Aquarius in the third house.) It has been a boom or bust ride getting a handle on how to wield my own authentic power with a bit of grace and efficacy. (I still get bucked off now and again.) AND on top of all that, I am deathly allergic to horses!!!
So, with an apology to my Mercury, I do agree with Zane and Joyce that Chiron is a “spanner planet”. Maybe those esoteric thinkers are really onto something,eh? (Sorry for the “eh”, I’m Canadian, can’t help it sometimes.)

1) Before reaching any conclusions about Virgo’s rulership, I think it’s important that we’ve first established a common ground as to which are the basic virgoan traits.
I may not know much about astrology, but, hey, with asc,sun,mercury,jup, sat in Virgo, Virgos I know! And I’ve got to tell you, most textbook descriptions either don’t fit or are only scratching the surface. And I know we’re not the most outspoken people in the world, and what we say is rarely what we truly mean, but at least for research purposes only, it’s time we spoke up!
e.g. No one will ever have me convinced that Virgos are about service. Shadow Virgos that have given up on their OWN quest for perfection maybe. But the archetypical Virgo is always a loner in essence. We’re one of the first six signs for a reason!

2) A good starting point for that imo would be mythology and semantics. Why did the ancients name us Virgins, and which aspects of the myth of Mercury led them to consider him our ruler? What did they have in mind? To us myths may be just tales, but to them gods and their stories formed a very significant part of their everyday realities, thus the often very powerful symbolism these choices enclose should not be disregarded. [After we do that, a tell-all Virgo session would be nice, too :) ]

3) We have to know our choices. It seems to me that we have to pick a ruler from the already discovered asteroids. Unfortunately, there’s not much information on them out there. In order to know what we’re talking about, we should first delve into the nature of every single one of them before rushing to ascribe one to Virgo. [Donna, I love your asc/ sun/ moon conj. asteroid method!! I can only hope that a research program on asteroids is in your future plans!]

4) Chiron is not our ruler-period. This guy is not a Virgo!
Theoritically, it fails to describe Virgo’s nature and life path.
Practically, it’s natal position in my chart just isn’t resonant with my life (and if it were to rule Virgo, it should be! That would make it my chart ruler, sun ruler, and also, most elevated and most aspected planet in my chart ).
I also checked for transits (two squares and an opposition to it’s natal position); they didn’t ring any bell, either.

I suppose my typo does reinforce what you said about the nature of Mercury. My Mercury is in Gemini in the Third House. I am quick in all third house matters: quick to interact with people in my community, quick to pick up information and file it away for future use, and quick to come up with easy solutions for seemingly difficult problems.

Even a sextile to Saturn, albeit Saturn in Aries, cannot ground me enough to keep me from the less positive manifestations of Mercurial speed: I often neglect to “check my work” or read instructions, I make lots of typo-types of mistakes, and I tend to do spacey things like realizing that I left my purse at home when I am standing in the checkout line.

I have also found the natural square created by Mercury in Gemini and Virgo to be somewhat ill-fitting for signs that share a ruler.

This feeling is, no doubt, reinforced by the tight square between my own Mercury and my Virgo stellium of Pluto-Uranus-Pallas. My 6th house is a whole other world than my 3rd. Organization and list-making are par for the course and my desk and studio are always in order. Even my 5th House Jupiter in Virgo insists on taking its own sweet time when engaged in art projects. I can work for hours on end with no break on the details that are such a part of all of the art pieces I have created.

Anyway, the more I learn about Chiron (Thank You, Joyce!), the more sense it makes to me that it would rule or co-rule Virgo.

Our need to fix things, or our idea of what it means to be a perfect friend/ mother/ daughter/ whatever, our way to keep people at arm’s length, or our way of bragging (look how much better I am at this than you),our way of saying “you suck!”, or -being forced into a world that’s all about relationships- the only way to relate that we know of! You pick!

@BERTA: I can’t get your stick off my mind (what did you think I’d say, naughty?). The “Queen Bee”dub was great, too. If it ‘sticks’, I’m willing to pay you royal-ties!

@NRAY: Nicely put! P.S. What’s your guess on our ruler?

By: VR on February 13, 2011 at 2:28 pm

VR–(I beleive that stands for ‘Virgo Rising’ and not “Victoria Regina”)?
I’m afraid we’re shouting over a generational gap. My reference to a “stick” was never meant to be a penile reference.

By: Berta on February 13, 2011 at 3:30 pm

Oh I don’t think it’s our way of bragging at all. I think it’s more like (when Virgo sees something amiss) “This is how it is, this is how it should be….and gets busy.”

By: Chickie on February 15, 2011 at 6:56 pm

Returning to Vesta, here are two case studies.
1) My kid sister has Sun in Taurus, Moon in Leo (not in square). Here Chiron is in Taurus but not in aspect to her lights. Her Vesta, on the other hand, is in Aquarius (one more point for our Uranus family score!), forming a square to her Sun and an opp. to her Moon. Though she has no Virgo placements, she claims she shares virgoan traits. She is indeed a workaholic, and, when it comes to work, she is a perfectionist with great organizational skills. I happen to be her favorite sister, some of her best friends are Virgos, she says she “gets us”, and she calls her fellow bulls ‘lazy freaks’. She is also a team-player, and some of the most important people in her life are-guess what- Aquarius!

2)My Vesta is in Leo in the 11th, forming a T-Square along with my moon-mars opposition. Chart ruler in Leo could explain some leonine traits in my personality I usually ascribe to my strong sun, and also my love-hate relationship with Leos; it’s placement in the 11th reinforces the Uranian patterns in my chart and in my family (I’ve mentioned before my affinity to Aquarians that is stronger than my Uranus score). Oh, and lest we forget the squares to Moon and Mars that speak volumes! I knew I had a T-square somewere!

That’s all I could come up with for the time being. I know it’s not much, but I hope I’ll get the chance to explore it’s meaning in more depth in the future! But whether it rules Virgo or not, finding Vesta has been a very ‘Duh!’ moment for me in my years in astrology. And to think that I didn’t even like using asteroids! :)

1. why must each planet rule a sign? as we discover more and more planets, we’re running out of signs. and we would end up inventing more signs just to keep it going. why can’t we have planets that do not rule any sign at all?

2. why do we assume that having one planet rule over two signs is ‘iffy’? is there any reason why all signs should be exactly alike? yes, we have two signs with the same ruler. some things are alike, some are different. life is complex that way. what reason do we have for challenging this? (other than our need for simplicity)

3. it fits perfectly with the archetype of Virgo to be for ever unsatisfied with the ‘given’, no matter what it is. this sign’s quest for Perfect solutions, this sign’ fussiness over everything and its compulsion to have every tiny thing in its own tiny box with a perfectly written label on it seems to be exactly what this quest is all about. yeah, Virgo THINKS its ruler does not Fit Perfectly. so what’s new? it does not mean it’s not.

4. can it be that these new planets that show up are trying to teach us new things? can it be that while we’re too busy re-writing the past to please our tastes, we’re missing the boat to the future?

“Tiny boxes with tiny labels.”You said it VR, this Virgo pleads guilty as charged or at least no contest.
Here’s the thing, I know a Scorpio and an Aries with no planets in Virgo and they are just as anal, or obsessive-compulsive, they make me look messy.
Maybe I just have strange friends…..

By: Chickie on February 14, 2011 at 4:50 pm

Funny and cute too!

By: Chickie on February 15, 2011 at 6:31 pm

@ Chickie (Chickie??!!! :) )
“Here’s the thing, I know a Scorpio and an Aries with no planets in Virgo and they are just as anal, or obsessive-compulsive, they make me look messy”

“When we start with a theory—a preconceived notion of what is true—then we interpret everything we see in the light of our theory. When events or personality traits don’t really match the theory, we spin it until it does.” D.C.
Donna said it all, right from the beginning!

On the other hand, I’ve come to think that the less in tune a sign is with society’s trends, worldview and prerequisites, the more “shadow types” it produces.

That said, people have a right to just not like us!! :)

That’s it, got to go! (today Neptune stopped quincunxing my Virgo stellium, and I’ve been praying for this day to come for a very, very, very long time!!)
Greetings

By: VR on February 16, 2011 at 12:45 am

I see much evidence in favor of Joyce’s “sector rule”…If we extrapolate that to a specific Virgo ruler then I am leaning to CERES, -Daughter of Saturn, ruler of Divine Womanhood, Fecundity/Harvest– and Bargainer with Pluto…she swings that scythe for a reason- and with the promise of (virginal) renewal.
I worked with the planets, nodes, Parts, etc. for 35 years before “delving”, just a little, into asteroids…What I found was quite telling, especially in regard to Juno, Ceres and female life cycles.
If you are interested in a quick tell…compare your natal Ceres and/or Juno to the birth of any child you may have born…if you haven’t a child,– check your mother’s chart to yours.
(and while you’re at it…check the root of “delving”)….

I like your Ceres idea Berta, Virgo will go head to head with Pluto over and over, especially if she has a loaded 8th house…its how she receives transformation. She makes the plunge and rises again cleaner, purer, and closer to God.
@Neeti I know a Virgo who almost lost her son when he was two years old. He wandered off at a beach picnic and not found until the next day, almost 30 hours later. She came closer to loosing her mind than anyone I have ever seen.
Ceres for me. (yikes this is the third time I’ve changed my mind :))

Ok… newbie throwing a thought in here… I am well versed with Virgo’s, married one and special man friend is one. Both with Scorp rising.

As a person who has lived in the shadow of a virgo and know their traits very well, I stuggled with my first thoughts about Chiron and how it fits in with Virgo – instant thought was no way…. But then thinking more about the life shared with Virgo men, believe me not easy for a Leo with double Scorp… I thought about what I brought to the relationship.

I concluded if Chiron is to be associated with Virgo, it would be because they had certain traits that benefited from others supporting their healing. I am a Reiki healer, and both my Virgo men have proved very challenging over the years – but the bottom line – they both needed a great deal of healing (open wounds) and still do.

For all the practicalities of their Earth traits, they are very good at covering up their open wounds – which to me would explain why the wounds are often missed or not thought of unless with associated planets make a few things more obvious.

Donna the very first thought that came to mind when I saw the title of this article was Linda Goodman insisting all those years ago that Vulcan is the true ruler of Virgo, it was fun to see that you mentioned this as well.
I always thought Linda (God love her, she opened so many of our eyes) was right about Mercury not ruling Virgo although I’m not so sure about Vulcan, then again wouldn’t it be interesting if one of the five planets just discovered ended up being named Vulcan?
My 8th house stellium of Sun,Chiron, Venus, Mercury, Eros and Neptune in Virgo qualifies me to vote…lol!
This may be over simplification but the fact remains that Chiron the Centaur is half man half horse and Virgo is the one sign of the Zodiac that is clearly a woman, so Chiron cannot be the ruler of Virgo.
My vote would be Ceres or Athena, especially Athena because Virgo shares her characteristics.
Donna thank you for this fascinating post!

Pallas Athena is a warrior, a strategist. Ceres, the harvest Goddess who went mad over the loss of her daughter: I don’t know it that fits. Vesta-Virgo, I can see the resonance. I like Vesta for Virgo. But I remember what Zane said in this thread about remembering these are asteroids and not planets.

The discovery of Vulcan would have been most convenient. The lame god of thunder, an ironsmith. I associate Virgo with delicacy in tasks, I don’t know if Vulcan fits, either.

Oh, dear. I’m being very picky, right? I have a Virgo Mercury, by the way :)

I read somewhere that it’s been only been recently that the term ‘virgin’ has come to mean ‘never had sex’. Originally it was used to describe a strong, self-sufficient woman who had left home (i.e., was no longer the property of her father) and had refused to get married (i.e., and thus become the property of her husband). Virgos of my acquaintance have always demonstrated that same strong, proud self-sufficiency – a character trait that seems to resonate even less to Chiron than it does with Mercury.

Is there a huge, loner asteroid up there with a latin or greek name that translates to Little Red Hen?

Tara, How funny, I’d completely forgotten that i used Chickie as my screen name ..you got me!

By: Chickie on February 14, 2011 at 5:01 pm

Oh my, about to clip one of Mercury’s fleet-footed wings, eh… Well, darn, as far as I can tell he’s a handy environmental sensor with a penchant for problem-solving in Virgo. A little down to earth self-adjustment is just the ‘bridge’ needed to put us on the upswing sometimes.

Every sign has its worries and shortcomings, of course, but my little two cents suggests the key to Virgo is – simply – being useful.

I will have to respectfully disagree with the statement that what Virgos say is rarely what they mean, however, since that contradicts a well-known Virgoan attribute (imho): Accuracy is sacrosanct. ;-)

Well yes we do like to be useful but there’s more to us than that.
I agree with your disagreeing that Virgos rarely say what they mean ~ brutal honesty doesn’t sit well with Virgo, words will be used with this thought in mind.
Virgo says exactly what she means in the kindest way possible. (except when she is pushed over the edge, then look out, she won’t be gentle but she will continue to be honest).

Accuracy is indeed sacrosanct but it needs not be spoken. And though I’m sticking to my opinion (we’re very up-front when making a point/ argument, but when it comes to things like feelings, relationships, ‘opinions’ e.t.c., uh, not so much), it’s very interesting to know that other Virgos disagree with me on that! You got me thinking, girls :)

By: VR on February 14, 2011 at 1:38 am

Virgo is polite and factual. It’s about the facts. Emotional drama is not Virgo’s domain.

Imho, Virgos are not particularly polite, nor factual, just subtle and private.
They usually behave in a polite manner so to keep their distance. They’re also exceedingly polite to people they have no respect for. Unless they find someone unworthy And annoying, in which case they snap at them with rude and brutal comments.
So, how to know when Virgos love you/like you/respect you? They tease you! All the time! Non-stop! -the kind of playful teasing that’s followed by a loud laughter and a hug.
And they touch you. Constantly. If a Virgo freezes when you lay hands on them, that alone should set off alarm bells for your relationship.

By: VR on February 18, 2011 at 6:03 am

Virgo is in service to the vision of perfection – virgo picks at others and self because it sees both the ideal and what really is and feels distress at the gap. Virgos are hard working and focused on every little detail because they ‘know’ that’s the only way to realise the vision – Virgos expect everyone else to share their particular vision of perfection and how to get there.

(my credentials: moon tightly conjunct pluto/lilith/vertex in virgo)

When this debate started I would have plumped for chiron to rule virgo but now I am not so sure – the wounded healer does sound earthy to me, but the deepest wounds are often emotional and I’ve always understood Chiron to signify our deepest wound and our deepest treasure – the energies of Virgo that don’t seem to fit Chiron are those around the vision of perfection and the principles of discernment and obsession with detail. I also resonate to the idea that a comet cannot really rule a sign, so I am plumping for chiron to be associated with a watery sign, probably scorpio.

VR: the vestal virgins were a sisterhood – the virgin bit originally meaning women independent of marriage – to be the son of a bitch meant to be the son of a temple priestess – both the sisterhood, the detached sex and the greater service to the whole leads me to conclude that Vesta belongs with Aquarius rather than Virgo.

Perhaps we need to go back to the myths and seek a god/dess who exemplifies all the qualities of Virgo – perhaps, Donna, it is Virgo that is ruled by earth not Taurus?

Chiron seems like a mixture of Sagittarius + Scorpio traits to me, especially considering the ongoing wound in which only mortality and death ended the suffering (Scorpio sting, anyone?). Sagittarius is also a teacher and healer. And the centaur connection is obvious.

Hmm, I’ve always considered this part of his catalogue more resonant with his Pisces Moon conj. Asc, also in Pisces.
But, for the rest part, I agree with you, he was indeed an exemplary Virgo- for better or worse. And with Virgo Sun part of a stellium in the 6th, how could he not? :)

By: VR on February 14, 2011 at 1:48 am

My stuff in Virgo loves this post, Donna! Before reading your post, I had my arguments ready, but now I can say that you have made my points for me:

Point #1: “There’s a problem with that hurried approach. When we start with a theory—a preconceived notion of what is true—then we interpret everything we see in the light of our theory. When events or personality traits don’t really match the theory, we spin it until it does.”

It seems to me that you have a bias against Virgo ruling Mercury, so you can’t “see” it.

Point #2: “It’s human nature to want instant closure, to be uncomfortable with uncertainty, but what would be wrong with a wait and see approach? What if we simply gathered data on what people were like with certain planetary configurations or what happened under transits of that body? Lots and lots of data, over the course of several years, without cherished theories to distort what we are seeing?”

This is a very Virgoan approach to research. I believe all kinds of research is under Mercury’s rule. As someone with Venus and Mars in Gemini and Saturn, North Node and MC in Virgo, I can say that I frequently attract both types of people (often with strong emphasis in both signs like me) and they are both Mercurian to me. The most talkative people I know are my Gemini grandmother (who also has Moon in Virgo) and Virgo stepmother (who has Mercury and Venus in Virgo and Mars in Gemini). They both love gossip, are know-it-alls, are pathological liars (trickster Mercury strikes!)…but here’s the difference:

My grandmother was a teacher all of her life.
My stepmother was a physician’s assistant and then became an attorney.

Both women’s professions take advantage of the way that they handle and disseminate information.

They are both extreme examples of Mercury, more amped at everything Mercurial than people I know without emphasis in both signs.

My mom is a Gemini with Mercury in Gemini and Jupiter in Virgo. Whooooo. The endless talking and sifting through information. And she gets along the best with Virgos (her sisters and romantic relationships).

On the other hand, my brother, best friend, exes and more are Geminis without Virgo influence and they are not very talkative. They’d rather listen. They’re also not as obsessive-compulsive about collecting information and writing.

I can keep going with this in my family, my friends, co-workers, clients, etc.

The author of Fuck Yeah Virgos Blog confirms this to me. She has no planets in Gemini, yet she attracts Geminis and people with planets in Gemini like whoa! She gets along really well with air signs and she can out-Mercury me. FYI: She is the one who first turned me onto your blog (I didn’t know that you had one!) with her constant emails of your planetary strength tests. lol Your challenge that Virgo is not ruled by Mercury set off a long conversation between us, too.

From my experiences, Virgo is the sign that is the least like its traditional description. They are so varied that they deserve to have two rulers (Mercury and Chiron).

Perhaps our understanding of Mercury needs to evolve so that it fits Virgo.

Submitting another anecdotal example: my ex has ASC, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn in Virgo. His nervous energy was too much for me. He always needed to be up, doing something, fixing something, dancing around, talking…0 quiet or calm moments. One time, we were on a plane with really rough turbulence. It felt like we were about to die and he was nervously talking and fidgeting with the TV knobs. He kept asking me to talk to him. I was like..”I hope my last moments aren’t with him while he’s annoying me.” Very low Gemini influence and no 3rd house connections. His Mercury is in Pisces and opposes his ASC and Mars and North Node.

I don’t know where the idea that Virgo is not sexual came from. What a crock. Take a look at Selma Hayak. Ancient history says that Athena didn’t like sex, that’s the only part of her persona that doesn’t match…ah well…<3

How about this? In my experience of Virgos, and I have many Virgo friends, (I myself have Saturn in Virgo square my Sun) I want to suggest this: ]

Virgo rules the 6th house, the last house of the development of the self, where we experience our own boundaries before we can experience “the other” (7th). We achieve this through the limitation and finiteness of illness, the recognition of our position in service or apprenticeship, or the establishment of routines. The Virgo women who are impeccably dressed have such a fine attunement to their personal space (boundary).

I could go on, but therefore I suggest Saturn as a co-ruler of Virgo, because of its attention to boundary. Perhaps even the Saturn/Uranus connection, or putting form to chaos. I find Virgos extremely good at that.

Regine, your post reminded me of the difficulty – fascination! – of trying to isolate things that are so connected.

Achieving Saturn and refining Virgo (along with producing Taurus) are definitely in the same field – the Earth industry. Dr. Phil embraces all three — with a 6th House Virgo Sun; Virgo Saturn conjunct DSC; and 2nd House Taurus Moon — in his tag line: How’s that working for you?

Although, out of respect for Virgo, I’d be surprised…disappointed if Saturn accepted your offer to get into Virgo’s business.

“people who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us who do”
said the Virgo sun. I have had experience with Virgo sun, virgo moon, and virgo on the ascendant and each person reflects this influence differently. The virgo sun is perfectionist know it all (and some times they do); the virgo moon is emotionally rigid and restricted. opinionated; the ascendant is fussy,hard to please, highly critical. They all are verbally and academically talented which seems to suggest Mercury as the ruler.
My experience with gemini sun, moon, ascendant is very different…a torrent of words and ideas, brilliant, delightful, irritating but they listen and respond. If Mercury has the many aspects described by myth, then he/she can rule both Virgo and Gemini.
Chiron has too much compassion and depth to be the ruler of Virgo.

There’s one thing that’s very Mercury about Virgos though; the fidgeting. Every Virgo I know, have so much nervous energy, myself included. I used to bite my nails, then I chainsmoked for years, now I organize bookshelves when the “inner stress” gets over me – even in bookstores.

I can attest to the fidgety! I have Sun in Virgo plus Mercury, Venus and Pluto conjunct in Virgo. I’d go with Mercury for Virgo, but I’m probably biased by having Mercury in Virgo, and I work as a medical writer (guess that could bring in Chiron, too, but I agree that the compassion of Chiron has to come from somewhere else). My experience is that Virgos don’t relax unless they’ve accomplished something, and even then it’s not for long because there’s always something else to fix. Most of my Virgo is in my 1st house (except for the Sun, but that’s about Me too), so the focus on perfecting has been on myself generally speaking.

a few thoughts I had while reading over everyone’s really interesting comments (in no particular order):

i can’t imagine a planet so close to the sun could ever rule virgo (so i for one am glad vulcan never materialised – at least not there!) someone mentioned virgos are loners and while i’m not totally sure that’s “true”, i do imagine they feel ‘alone’ / ‘on their own’ much of the time

my experience of virgo (i’m in the n. hemisphere though) is that he’s the guy (gal) who has to step away from the joy/fun of summer and begin to the task of preparing for winter … it’s hard to imagine, in late august, that it will ever be cold & dark & miserable, but virgo sets to work, preserving the food that will get us through the long off-season, cleaning & storing the tools so they will be in good working order next spring, etc. these are somewhat mundane tasks, where the rewards are not seen for many months … not the kind of thing you can easily talk everyone into participating in – and knowing these things need to be done, *must* be done if we are to not perish, is a lonely job sometimes … a person serving in this way can come across as a know-it-all, picky, obnoxious perfectionist – and gets little thanks imho. not as big a party-pooper as saturn (who swoops in and abruptly ends the party hollaring we’ll all starve to death if you guys don’t stop eating, drinking & making merry!) but still not gonna be the one with all the friends. i do associate virgos with service – perhaps not “serving” another, but maybe the fidgeting comes from a need to put things in place (before its too late! enough to make anyone nervous!)

it seems to me chiron is a good choice for virgo … i totally get behind the idea of the ‘belt’ (and love that it incorporates all 4 elements) but i think if a ruler were to be chosen out of that process, the beginning is the only place to look — without the beginning, nothing can follow.

the only other thing that came to mind is how a friend and i used to say jesus was a virgo (i’m not at all “religious” btw but …) i just don’t see him (whether real or imagined) as a capricorn … he strikes me as the quintessential virgo – and also the quintessential wounded healer (if ever there was one!)

hee hee … i mentioned that i wasn’t religious but apparently neither am i remotely educated in ‘history’ either! curious to learn where this supposed birth date came from, i googled jesus’ birthday and while the first link i clicked on claimed it to be may 14th, the second one suggested he was born in September. his birthday may be as debatable as the ruler of virgo! ;)

By: Tara on February 14, 2011 at 7:25 am

VR, what you said about Virgo not being alone so much as feeling as though they are alone is true, it’s an over developed sense of responsibility that drives the Virgo to exhaustion and everyone else to the gun shop.

By: Chickie on February 14, 2011 at 5:48 pm

There is nothing offensive about your comments, actually I think they are insightful, your description of Virgo preparing for the winter snows is a touchingly good take of the essence of the Virgo soul.

In light of horary and mundane applications I would say the methods brought forth by Lilly, Kepler, Ptomely etc and how they fussed and fiddled for generations of objective observation to determine which goes with which and how, and further, my own experience of watching these methods play out to good effect leads me to believe that for horary and mundane applications the “traditional” rulers work best and are, indeed the only ones that give accurate readings! As to modern rulerships and the question of virgo and taurus, why don’t we go back and research how the decisions were madein the case pisces and aquarius. There MUST have been some observable reason. Jupiter was taken away from pisces for neptune and aquarius was stripped of it’s saturn ruler and given uranus in it’s stead. When new planets surface to consciousness the application of those new planets in chart readings bears out the choices of rulership through time. I would say, then, that for all but horary and mundane applications we should do a little research looking for concrete cause and effect. I was never very curious about virgo’s rulership as mercury seems to, indeed, fit and when I bounce around the chart, looking for dispositors, house rulers and the like it bears fruit. It would be lovely to read some of the old texts from the period when uranus and neptune were brought to consciousness to hear what methods they used to hash it out as to who ruled whom. I have solar fire gold and will try to fiddle with the idea of chiron as a ruler of virgo and come up with a point of view that works. The bee is in the bonnet.

Hi Donna! As a Virgo Sun, my vote goes to Mercury. I did read Linda Goodman’s Sun Signs about Vulcan in the 70’s and was intrigued. But in the meantime, I got comfortable with Mercury being the ruler of my Sun sign.
It fits my mercurial tendencies. Virgos can have many intellectual interests and lots of nervous energy. And Mercury Virgo tied in with a Gemini can manifest as unstoppable talking, describing events with tedious detail.
Thank you for for this food for thought. Never studied Chiron, will read up on it.

An interesting article by Lynn Koiner, published in a Book titled ” Astrology’s Special Measurements ” and Edited by Noel Tyl; speaks about Transpluto and it characteristics as ruling Virgo . An ephemeris by Micheal Munkasy is provided.
Personally my Sun is on the Leo/ Virgo cusp and I have Jupiter in Virgo conjunct Chiron and Neptune in Libra.
My father and oldest son are Virgos and my longest standing girlfriend is a Virgo. Indeed my Father and girlfriend were born on the same day. My 3rd grand daughter is a Virgo. My youngest son has a Virgo Moon.
The Constellation Virgo sports fixed star Vindermaitrix,
which is a woman bearing a shaft of grain.What is seed, but the potential of the fruit.
In Esoteric astrology Virgo represents more than anything else, form and soul united ( Mother pregnant with child) ; the Mother nurturing and guarding the growth and ( birth) symbolic of the opening of the Heart Center. This opening up to usher forth this child is represented by Jupiter in Virgo and Jupiter is considered the Hierarchical ruler of Virgo. whereas the Moon is considered its Esoteric ruler because The Creator Life force Wills manifestation in Form ( earthly body), the Moon.
Of the SUN S in Virgo,I have noticed that both my oldest son and Father were scientific in their approach to their respected interests, persistent and patient with honing their skills and very successful. The same can be said of my girlfriend of 40 years.
Of the women Virgos I have met I can say they produce some of the worlds most beautiful women. The same cannot be said of Virgo men who are rather plain.

It would be interesting to see where these ladies have Venus placed in their chart.

I’m tempted to add that Linda Goodman says Libra and Aquarius produces the most beautiful women. But we all know that sun signs do not give us such information: are all Libras and Aquarians lovely? To Venus placements we must go and there we must look.

I can see some connection if people say Libra and Taurus look lovely, their signs are Venus-ruled after all. But really..to say a sun sign has dominion over beauty…that is doing astrology a disservice.

nray….I did NOT say Virgo had “dominion” over beauty….only that many very beautiful women are VIRGOS. My friend the Virgo has Venus in Leo in the 7th house. She has Capricorn rising with Aquarius intercepted in the 1st house. Capricorn can produce classic beauty. Not only is my friend a classic beauty but she is so spiritually as well. There is not a carping aggressive bone in her body.

By: Barehand on February 16, 2011 at 6:27 am

While no sign has dominion over or is devoid of beauty, I think there are ‘types of beautiful’ that Can be described by the big 3’s in a chart- if not by sun signs alone.

As it happens, Virgos have had more than their fair share of iconic beautys and/or sex symbols through the decades: Greta Garbo and I. Bergman in the 40’s, Laureen Bacall and Sophia Lauren in the 50’s, Sean Connery in the 60’s, Jacqueline Bisset and Peggy Lipton in the 70’s, Mickey Rourke and M. Jackson in the 80’s, Richard Gere and K. Reeves in the 90’s, Beyonce and Salma Hayek in the 00’s, to just mention a few.

And-movie stars aside- when someone (good looking or not-it’s doesn’t matter) either looks rather frosty and aloof, or there’s sth raw/dark and intensely chthonic/physical about them, I assume they’re a Virgo. And though not All Virgos fit this description, that’s how I’ve delineated in my mind their type of beautiful.

As a long time believer that VULCAN, now called Asteroid Icarus, is the actual ruler of Virgo, I have trouble with the idea of Chiron having anything to do with Virgo ! The one problem we have with Vulcan (Icarus) is that it is so close to people’s Suns that it is difficult to discern what characteristics belong to the Sun sign and what characteristics belong to Vulcan – in psychology, this is called “confounding”, and it is also a factor in any conjunction.
On a personal note, I have heard of Vulcan indicating lameness in some of the older books, but never a “psychological wound” as has Chiron. My Chiron is in Aquarius, conjunct my Dad’s Sun-his distance was my wound.

Apparently there’s some discussion about what might be a new discovery: a new gas planet even further out than Pluto. They call it Tyche. In latin that’s the goddess Fortuna. Perhaps a new candidate for Virgos ruler? Of course, they’re not sure yet if it’s there. I’m not sure a goddess for good luck is very Virgo-like, but I wouldn’t turn it down …

I tend to think that the ruler of Virgo is Mercury, which would be my final dispositor. Since I have a 4-planets stellium with Mercury in Virgo being just a little bit more than 10 degree from my stellium, Mercury automatically rules over most of other houses/planets. If Chiron is the ruler of Virgo, I would have Chiron and Mercury in mutual receptions as the final dispositors instead. May not change a lot from the dispositor chain, but I have always felt more in tune with Virgo (analytical/practical/critical).

This post has so many detailed responses, counter-arguments, qualifications, “improvements” on others’ ideas, and “corrections” of others’ experiences of Virgo. In my experience, Virgos are always the quickest ones to deny and qualify the descriptions of their own zodiac sign. Very much the dry side of Mercury. Suck all of the fun right out of any experience – unless they are high.

I co-sign Mary Jane (I’ve met many unkind, caustic Virgos or people with emphasized Virgo in their charts. They don’t want to be seen as unkind, so they stuff their complaints down until they can’t take it anymore and cue the endless bitching) & Regine (yes to Saturn as a ruler of Virgo because this sign can often out-should any Capricorn and I never liked Saturn for a ruler of Aquarius anyway).

My final word on this type of discussion/debate: If a Virgo (or someone with an emphasis in Virgo) does it, then it falls under the realm of possibility for the sign. Parsing out which parts are responsible for what in the chart is quite a Virgoan preoccupation. And my non-Virgo stuff is bored with the nit-pickiness of it all.

What foundation is there for a Chiron Sector or Chiron’s rulership over Virgo? Or even Vulcan’s? The characters do not work well with this sign. Chiron the teacher, the healer, the philosopher. Associated with Virgo? The sign of the nurse, the proofer, the editor, the dietician? I don’t mean to demean those roles or jobs, they are essential. But to take a sign like Virgo and link it to Chiron…that makes no sense.

It is beyond my ken to know whether Mercury in fact rules Virgo or not. But the skill and agility required for Virgo tasks are very connected to Mercury. But what drives this sign, gives it a strong impluse to correct, to perfect, to make better. Yes, there we need to look elsewhere maybe. But Virgo healing is of a very nature than Chiron and it’s perpetual wound and healing.

nray,
What will be your final choice? I could never relate to Mercury as Virgo’s ruler mostly because Hermes is male and Virgo is female sign, to me they just don’t match.

By: Chickie on February 19, 2011 at 10:48 am

Ah, Chickie, good question. I don’t know where I stand on this, that’s why the comments here riveted me.

I thought some more and remembered what Steven Forrest wrote about the Mars-Pluto debate and rulership of Scorpio. He says use both because both these planets have affinity for the sign. He says think in terms of “affinity” instead of “rulership.”

Mercury lends its agility well to to Virgo. Vesta is another one that resonates well.

It’s an interesting debate that’s been triggered here and I have enjoyed all comments and all opinions.

I han an Aunt that was a Virgo Nurse all her life. Then she had a stroke and was in a coma for six months…she spent the rest of her life as a patient and said being on the other end, patient not Nurse was showing her how she could have been a better nurse. A hard lesson she had learned. So congradulations to her!

By: Barehand on January 27, 2013 at 7:02 am

All right, I can’t help it, I’ve got to ask!!! What’s with the “65% convinced”? If you were 99% convinced, or even 50% convinced, I’d understand! But sixty-five? Five?? What kind of percentage is that?? :D

I played with various percentages, all the way up to 75%, but this one is the only one that reflects where I’ve gotten to. That’s considerable progress, considering I’ve vrtually ignored it for the past 25years. Donna

We have a strong Virgo strain in our family. I am a sun-sign Virgo, with Uranus, Pluto and Mercury also in Virgo, planets in houses 8 and 9, Sag asc. My daughter is born in Sag and her asc is literary on my sun. My middle son has his Venus and Jupiter here and my youngest has his moon.

I agree that it is limiting, that for one reason or another you end up taking care of or feeling responsible for someone else. I believe this is because as a young almost adult (Virgo) you are still finding your place in the world, still trying out different rolls to see who you are and how they fit. You are very very sure of what you do know though, with the clarity of one who has not been jaded by age, a person who has the ability to see, but still has their ideals.

This is why we are difficult, but also why we can “brush off old dreams and make them new again”.

Our ruler? Perhaps Pluto, perhaps Mercury, I really don’t know. It has to be one of clear vision, though and absolutely a loner at heart. (Think of the Hermit tarot card)

Virgo’s Idealism is indeed rarely talked of, and it’s such a pity, cause it’s probably-along with our perpetual quest for perfection- the most fundamental characteristic of our sign.

As for service, I like to call it our ‘comfort zone’, it’s where we regress when we can no longer handle the pressure of what it takes to live up to our full potential. There, in helping others, we are finally offered the break to sharpen our skills without the burden of our high-standards weighing heavy on our backs. Gosh, it’s so freaking hard to be a Virgo!

And yes, when off-track or in a bad day we can be cruel and mean and incompassionate and snobbish and snide and ill-spirited. We are all these things.

But at the end of the day, we still aim for perfection and we still give our all to the service of a higher vision, and frankly, I can’t think of anything more romantic or ambitious or noble than that!

Finally, I agree with you, if they’d let us have Pluto, we’d be good to go in terms of rulership. And Mercury could account for how much we value experience and knowledge.

P.S. I’m glad you went on the record in this thread! I must confess I’d started to feel a bit lonely… :)
[It’s not that what other people here had to say was necessarily wrong or particularly nasty; it’s that it was so darn-I don’t know- external? extraneous? extrinsic?]

We are often considered difficult (even my Capricorn boss thinks I am!) but we are who we are. I think if you know your asc and find your place, use your moon and Jupiter to broaden your spectrum you can still have fulfilling relationships and find real happiness. I think the happiest Virgos are the ones who still have found peace in the search for improvement of this chaotic world. The events in Egypt, for example, made my month! Even though it wasn’t personal, it was just amazing to see what people can do, given the right circumstances.

Gives us hope and we’ll find solutions, after we’re done griping! Think we’re like Aries and Aquarius that way! You have to envy Sags, though. Everyone just believes in them. We always have to convince. Mayby that’s what makes us so tired from time to time. Ops! This post wasn’t suppose to get this long!

venusastro, there is something in what you say. Perhaps, we could zoom this out to worker’s rights and if indeed they have any. Negotiation on the job and in the day to day is a tough job. It’s finding a better way to do things so we don’t get so exhausted. And it’s not just about technological advances either. There is the human element.

By: Ponder on February 19, 2011 at 7:28 am

VR,
Yes I know what you mean about the “feeling lonely” part, Leila did write a moving post. Thanks Leila!
Well this post surely caused all us Virgos to take yet another deep self analytical look at ourselves.
Like we don’t do enough of that already. Good Grief.
I see you like my screen name, she’s my alter ego and never worries about anything. She’s a trust fund kid with a big old messy house, and she always has some semi shady character around that she describes as either the handiman or a long lost cousin. :))

By: Chickie on February 19, 2011 at 12:01 pm

I do like your nick, Chickie, and it’s good to know you didn’t took offense at my comment!
(It’s never wise to joke in a public forum, especially when you have a caustic sense of humour like I do) :)

Sorry, guys, I didn’t mean to be scornful or anything!!
It’s just that there were some comments here (two in particular) that annoyed the heck out of me, basically because they sounded deliberately and smirkily unfair.
I guess my refusal to address them directly by leaving a reply under them took the best of me.
My sincere apologies… :oops:

Yeah, I’m not fond of the kind of trashing that’s been going on here and in the article about Whoopi Goldberg either. I wound up closing the comments on the Whoopi post because some were nasty and, frankly, racist. We don’t do nasty here.

At any rate, I think this snarky mood is due to a series of conjunctions in late Aquarius between Mars, Neptune, and anything else that sails on by, like the Sun and Mercury and last night’s Full Moon. Donna

All these comment and verbosity about lil’ ole’ virgo make me smile bemusedly. It confirms the mercury rulership if by no other means than by the sheer volume of mercurial verbiage thrown at the subject and the degree to which the writers are inclined to opine in such certain terms! I myself am also a virgo and I have been tempted more than once to add more of my own 2¢ worth of opinions I already have. One of the things I notice more than anything that keeps virgo with it’s mercury ruler that is demonstrated here is the fact that all the descriptions people offer of “virgo” are, just like mercury, flavored by other chart factors, house position, aspects etc. present and active for that person. Gemini and Virgo are, (more than other signs) prone to act as textural context for other, stronger influences. They communicate and delineate those influences. That is a big part of who they are. So Mercury is most definitely (by virtue of a distillation of all that’s been said so far) ruled by mercury. I also went and played with dispositorships and mercury worked for virgo where chiron did not. house rulership also pointed to mercury as the principle operative ie. if virgo moon were in, say, the 9th house with mercury ruling the 7th (as well as the 9th) the person was likely to have a 9th house flavored, lawyer, foreign, publisher etc.. partner. Whereas the newer rulership for pisces (neptune) was the effective ruler in a correlative usage. Mercury having so much to do with the management of corporeality there is no wonder it would have the dual duty of ruling two signs. It can obviously handle it! (And that goes for venus as well).

Hi Uhane!!! Just some thoughts (hopefully the last, but I can’t promise you anything :) )
1) There’s seems to be developing a “spider’s web” of some sort here, and if there’s a rational way to work around it, I’m afraid I don’t see it: If Virgos just say ‘nope’ to mercury, they’re exhibiting the sign’s notorious nitpicking, thus confirming the validity of the usual textbook descriptions. If they take the effort to form an argument, they’re being chatty, so back to Mercury! And, in the rare case that they manage to prove beyond reasonable doubt that their life stories don’t fit the sign’s typical description, it’s because they have Varuna here or MakeMake there. So, let’s suppose for a second-just for the fun of it- that Mercury is not Virgo’s ruler. One has to ask, then: theoritically, is there something a Virgo can say about their sign or a way to say it, and be taken seriously? Is there a neutral zone where a Virgo can stand and therefrom doubt the sign’s rulership/ description without the fear of proving from the backdoor what they set out to disprove?
2) I’ve been a late bloomer in astrology, and that has been a bliss, in the sense that I had a pretty much concrete self-image before starting studying it, which imo reduces the risk of self-fulfilling prophecy. And though the typical sun sign descriptions didn’t quite agree with me (Liz Greene’s famous quote comes to mind: “when you read what pop astrology has to say about your sign, you flip the page smiling”), what kept me interested in astrology was the fact that I could nevertheless trace common traits with other Virgos that I knew. I’ve been observing Virgos closely for more than 5 years now, and in this little research of mine, I’ve tried to be as objective as I could. I usually start with self-observation, make some assumptions, and then see if my assumption is resonant with other Virgos, as well. When a trait can be explained by other placements in my chart, I see if I can trace this same trait in Virgos that don’t share that placement. This is not to say that my take is necessarily right, just that I bore in mind the danger of ascribing to the sign irrelevant traits.
3) As for the rulership issue, I can’t say I’ve reached a definite conclusion, either. All I’m saying is that there are indeed facets in astrology that appear to be problematic (Virgo’s description/rulership is only one of them), and that they ought to be adressed directly and boldly. And while there are no easy answers, bringing these problem areas out into the open is imo a very good start.
4) Virgos aside, this time around I’m a bit obsessed-maybe a bit too much- with the WHY’S in astrology. I’ve stopped reading elaborate astrology books, and now I’m back to basics: the 12 signs. I even interrogate people! (you have this in that, and that’s consistent with when you do that. Explain yourself, Why do you do that, what’s your reasoning?) I feel that there’s a ‘why’, a causal relation if you will, that links all astrological sentences together. And if we don’t get to these “whys”, we could quite possibly keep amassing incidental manifestations till the end of time. And I’m proud to say I’ve finally figured out most “whys” behind Virgo’s behaviour!!
5) Are you still reading this?!
6) What you said about dispositors and Mercury’s suggestibility is very very interesting. And thought-provoking :)

In ancient Babylon, the planet Mercury was associated with the god Nabu, the divine scribe and god of wisdom. This demolishes the idea [it]… was called Mercury because it is fast moving…Nabu can hardly have been thought of as fast moving: scribes generally spent their day sitting still…no myths involving Nabu have survived… he… pre-dated the invention of writing, [so] his role as a god of wisdom must be older than that of scribe.
The Egyptian equivalent to Nabu was Tehuti…the Greeks [called him] Thoth. He…personified the principle of reason … was the scribe of the gods… inventor of…arts and sciences practiced on earth; and the recorder of the deeds of men, whose evidence decided their fate in the underworld…Thoth represents divine reason and will, and…had no connection with the planet Mercury until the Greeks introduced astrology to Egypt: the Egyptians regarded the planet as belonging to the god Set, while Thoth presided over the Moon.
As a result of Thoth’s position as a patron of knowledge, writers in Ptolemaic and Roman times [called him] Hermes [and]… dealt with philosophy and religion… astrology… and magic… Astrological medicine, an Egyptian specialty, was…presented under the name of Hermes…The [Egyptian] functions of Hermes seem to [be]fostering the fertility of cattle, aiding travelers, and guiding the soul after death. These roles also belonged to the Indian god Pusan… of…Indo-European heritage… means ‘nourisher’, so he was originally a fertility god…
The myth of Hermes seem to be of late origin…His first achievement was to steal Apollo’s cattle and lie about it. When his theft was finally exposed, he promptly invented the lyre and swapped it for the cattle, so creating both music and trade. To keep him on the straight and narrow for the future, he was appointed the messenger and herald of the gods. Apart from the interest in cattle, this is clearly the later image of Hermes. His antics are typical of trickster figures, like the American Coyote. This is not incompatible with his association with knowledge: the trickster is the other side of the sage; every shaman has to be something of a showman. At a deeper level, we may remember the stories of Adam and Faustus: the desire for knowledge can lead one to take a step too far.

About that desire Nett, I think that has more to do with the insatiability of Sag and what is attracted to that. I find it quite amazing that the strong attractive gravitational force of Jupiter holds all the asteroids so they don’t come crashing into our atmosphere. Just a thought. Now my Virgo microprocessor can take a rest. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. But you do offer good food for thought.

Wow that’s great info. Remember when all those 21 comets crashed into Jupiter a few years back? Jupiter also attracts most of the comets that enter our solar system. In a dream that time I saw the comets as 3 rainbows of dragons and felt the tremendous positive excitement of Jupiter s preparation to receive them.

Let me be perfectly clear, this is a follow-up to the Mythology post. In the spirit of astrological science, I did a bit of research and had the practical idea to post historical details on Mercury. Please don’t take this as criticism of the thorough debate, I just wanted to be of service in an effort to improve the analysis of the planet. (BTW, satire is a trait of Virgos. My MH is Virgo and Virgo Saturn is the 10th – yes, I’m a “civil servant”)

No offense taken. I have no problem with history buffs. As long as they don’t expect me to live there. What you and the writer you quoted do show is that consciousness as expressed through mythology evolves and I do like that. Maybe one day we’ll get out from this rat’s nest (no offense to the rat) of complexes the Greeks cast into the sky.

I’ve read these comments with pure joy, and found so much to learn about Virgo – this is great stuff! Among other things, I don’t feel so weird anymore … And I forgot something: Loads of writers have strong Virgo influence, myself included. (I checked in the AstroDataBank). So perhaps Mercury isn’t so off after all?

What you say about the weirdness, Natalie…me too!
P.S. Just yesterday I was thinking that this discussion couldn’t have taken place in any other blog. I think it’s Donna’s approach -her not laying down the law here nor rubbing her fame and 40 years of experience to our faces- that is causing us to think outside the box and not be afraid to use our own minds- that’s what produced such a fruitful discussion.
So, I guess it’s never too late to say…thank you Donna!

I agree totally!
Keeping up with this discussion has been instrumental in my surviving this past nightmare of a full moon. :)
Thank you so very much Donna. <3<3<3

By: Chickie on February 20, 2011 at 2:45 am

Thank you for thanking me. I know what I know, having focused very narrowly on certain areas of astrology for so many years. The consequence of that is that there are also a great many areas of this vast field I know little or nothing about, and don’t at all mind saying, “I don’t know.” Those areas are ones where I invite discussions like these or have guest bloggers. It’s a pleasure. Donna

Wonderful posts! Can’t remember when I learned SO MUCH in so short a time! Loved the Chiron sector theory and while I am familiar with Juno, Vesta and Ceres, they obviously deserve more study. Thank you for the opportunity Donna… :)

I love this debate so much!! Let me just state for the record I am a gemini rising. With mercury, Uranus sun and moon plus Pluto all in Virgo. A very loaded fourth house. Traditionally my ruler is mercury right. My Gemini yes all the way for mercury. I don’t feel a huge connection to mercury via my huge stellium in Virgo. The one area of mercury that haunts me is his ability to travel between Olympus, earth and hades. Virgo is also placed at the harvest time. Does this have anything to do with mercury. I have read about the separation of wheat from chaff. Basically tying this to our analytical abilities. This is probably true, but not the true essence Virgo. I have many Virgo friends and relatives. Most of them have very spiritual sides. I think the nit picking is our process of trying to make things better in a very self sacrificing way( not always the best way for us). i see problems I want to fix them. I’m sure I must drive people crazy.

Well I don’t know who the ruler is, but my vote is that it isn’t Chiron. Chiron just doesn’t have the same type of energy as those giant rocks circling our Sun. Chiron feels more like a channel than a planet.

lol! One should be very careful as to what they type here, their comments might end up in your subscribers’ inbox!
I just re-read my comments in this thread… All 60 of them… God, I sure made Don Quijote look like a bank clerk last week, didn’t I? Yikes! Maybe I should apply for a Mars-Neptune square!
(no offense to the square, or to bank clerks- hopefully this will keep me out of trouble!)
Anyway, I’m only posting to go on the record saying that my final vote would be for Pluto. Actually, this would have been my original vote to begin with, but I chickened out! (I was afraid this might sound too wacky, even coming from me!)
Not only it would fit us better than any other known planet, it would also provide me with an answer to my eternal astrological question: “How come I identify more with, say, my Mars-Pluto conj. than with my Jupiter conjunctions for example” – mind you, these are conjunctions to my sun, asc And (alleged ruler) Mercury! Plus, they shouldn’t have given the planet of Evolution to a fixed sign in the first place, but, that said, I’m willing to share! Anyway, too late to write a treatise about that now!
P.S. I’m very-very curious about what you’ve done with the earth test! My guess is you’ll use the traditional rulers and get it over with, but let’s just wait and see, right? This time tomorrow I might be counting points for Ceres!
O.K. That’s it. I’m shutting up now. For good. Really. I promise :)

60 of them? VR, get a grip!!! I knew there were a lot, but 60? Wait a minute–wouldn’t that qualify as a manifestation of a Mercury-Jupiter conjunction in detail-oriented Virgo? Aha, I just now figured out how to get a smiley face into my replies, so you get the very first one. :-) Donna

Oh my goodness – I love this debate and I have to put in my two cents.

I have no problem with Mercury as ruler of Virgo if you think of Virgo as working with written rather than the spoken word. So many writers have prominent Virgo in their charts. Gemini is unedited; Virgo is edited.

I like what Joyce Mason says about Chiron influencing a whole tranche of the Zodiac.

And here is my useful bit of extra info. The Roman astrologer Manilius gives each sign a ruler and a tutelary deity. Sometimes these are the same thing, but in the case of Virgo, Mercury is the ruler and Ceres is the teacher. This fits with Virgo’s iconography – the woman with the wheat, but I have yet to test it astrologically.

Hi, Christina, have visited your blog several times and really enjoy your perspectives. Virgos–or especially Virgo risings–make the best editors, in my experience. Had not heard about tuelary rulers/teachers. Could you share any of the others? We’ve also had a debate on Venus vs. the Earth itself as ruler of Taurus. Donna

Sure – sorry about the time lag in response – life does get in the way of webthing sometimes.

Manilius wrote a long didactic poem (around the second century) to help students remember their astrology. He lists the “tutelary deities” as follows – remember they are not the same as the ruling planets, but more like wise counsellors to the sign in question. (One of the things I like about them is that they rebalance the genders in astrology.)
Pallas – Aries
Venus – Taurus
Apollo (the Sun) – Gemini
Mercury – Cancer
Jupiter – Leo
Virgo – Ceres
Libra – Vulcan
Scorpio – Mars
Sagittarius – Diana
Capricorn – Vesta
Aquarius – Juno
Pisces – Neptune

So you can see that some are the same as the ruling planets.

I’ve been doing a bit of investigation to see if I can squeeze some real astrology out of this – and I was thrilled to find, for example, that the asteroid Vesta featured powerfully in uber-successful Capricorn cook Nigella Lawson’s chart. Vesta is the goddess of cooking!

That’s just one example though and I’m very curious to find if the actual asteroids (which of course Manilius would not have known about) work consistenly with their signs.

I’ve written quite a few posts on Manilius as I’ve been going along. The one on Nigella gives a lengthier explanation of how I think tutelary deities may work. http://bit.ly/gPYet8

It’s actually quite an easy read and the notes are fantastic. I found a reference to these tutelary deities in the footnotes of a book by CEO Carter, the 20th century British astrologer, and I was so intrigued that I followed it up.

Because most of us are not that well educated? It’s the sort of astrology that Rob Hand and others have investigated over the past decade or so, so probably they’ve worked with it. Thanks, Christina. Donna

I’ve never come across any commentary on it by modern astrologers – even Rob Hand et al. I assume that it’s part of astrology that was discarded a long time ago (eg during the Renaissance) because it was far too obviously pagan.

“At her rising Erigone (Virgo), who reigned with Justice over a bygone age and fled when it fell into sinful ways, bestows high eminence by bestowing supreme power; she will produce a man to direct the laws of the state and the sacred code; one who will tend with reverence the hallowed temples of the gods.” [Astronomica, Manilius, 1st century AD, p.265]

“The temperaments of those whose span of life she pronounces at their birth Erigone (Virgo) will direct to study, and she will train their minds in the learned arts. She will give not so much abundance of wealth as the impulse to investigate the causes and effects of things. On them she will confer a tongue which charms, the mastery of words, and that mental vision which can discern all things, however concealed they be by the mysterious workings of nature. From the Virgin will also come the stenographer: his letter represents a word, and by means of his symbols he can keep ahead of utterance and record in novel notation the long speech of a rapid speaker. But with the good there comes a flaw: bashfulness handicaps the early years of such persons, for the Maid, by holding back their great natural gifts, puts a bridle on their lips and restrains them by the curb of authority. And (small wonder in a virgin) her offspring is not fruitful.” [Astronomica, Manilius, 1st century AD, p.237 and 239]

And I got to thinking: Maybe we WISH Pluto was our ruler so we could gain access to all he knows. Also, he are as obsessive as Scorpios when it comes to getting to the truth or having secrets out. What makes us different I think is that we still need to ask why people have done what they’ve done, but Scorpio’s already know. Ergo, Pluto is not ours. HOW EVER. The scythe is used in harvest, so that would explain our reputations to a certain degree. I think we do what we have to do. I like Ceres for Virgo. She struck a deal with Hades to get her daughter out of the underworld from which no one ever escaped. Shrewd.

I also really like the idea of “tutelary deities”. Every thing has to be about balance at some point.

Hello Donna, I just want to say that your theory of mother Earth ruling Taurus resonates with me. I had always wondered why our own earth didn’t rule ay sign and when I first started studying astrology, I used to think, “what does Earth rule?’ ? How could it rule nothing? It makes sense to me that the Earth would rule the earthiest of the earth signs.

Why can’t be assumed that both Chiron and Mercury both rule Virgo, since Virgo can also be analytical and involved very much with the mind and it can be that Virgo just puts ideas into practice in the field of it’s choice therefore having both characteristics of Mercury and Chiron after all Virgo can also be quite eloquent and sharp thinker

What do you think about an idea that venus rules taurus,nibiru rules libra and earth rules virgo?
Virgo is an earth sign,in mythology its a norturing woman,mother of the earth(demetra,ceres..)
Thank you,
Ivana