Is there future for Microsoft?

But seriously, you think the external hard drive market is propelled by Apple users? I don't.

No, but I am saying that the interest the Apple crowd has in these things is disproportionate.

If your computer is less expandable, one of the ways you're going to expand is outside of the box.

Apple has sold fewer desktops than the PC counterpart market for years, wherever the relative percentages were at any given point; it does "where is the computer" design. It values small, it values thin. In short, it does things that seem to encourage more out-of-the-box peripherals.

Moreover, practically no one outside of the Mac contingent really seems to care about technologies like Firewire and Thunderbolt, either. The whole external world just seems to be more of a factor in the Apple universe.

The integrated MBA/MBP batteries are supposed to last as long as two old-style replaceables

But, that's not what you said. You weren't talking about Mac batteries; you seemed to be talking about your other PCs if not more expansively about battery replacement in general.

My other PCs? Where? Are you responding to someone else?

ZeroZanzibar wrote:

In any case, a lot of batteries in the world are "long lasting" but that's a relatively short term statement, normally. None, in my experience, last forever unless you plan on a short life for the device.

Long life in terms of number of recharge cycles. Why is that a 'short term statement'?

I've replaced older MacBook and PowerBook batteries in year 3 or 4. One replacement is often enough, as I rarely keep an active laptop beyond 5-6 years. These days they're on 2 or 3 year lease. I recall kept one PowerBook long enough for it's third battery, and I know a few subsequent owners have gone for a third too.

But what does this have to do with the integrated battery in the unibody models? The main compromise is (not) swapping in the field. The integrated battery is replaceable (so the laptop life isn't reduced) and I mentioned this in the part of the post you neglected to quote.

ZeroZanzibar wrote:

No, but I am saying that the interest the Apple crowd has in these things is disproportionate.

Is this just a hunch or are you basing this on some data?

ZeroZanzibar wrote:

Moreover, practically no one outside of the Mac contingent really seems to care about technologies like Firewire and Thunderbolt, either. The whole external world just seems to be more of a factor in the Apple universe.

Firewire was and Thunderbolt in the near-term will be 'cared about' by audio and video users mostly (sure Macs are stong in these fields but they always have been). Ultrabook users, too (it's too early to tell). Again I'm not sure how a non-Apple laptop makes a difference vis-a-vis external devices.

Apple's virtue is that it focuses very much on making it easy for the user to get things done.

So if you buy an Apple computer, the "important" use-cases are polished to a very high degree.

The downside is that as soon as you want to do something Apple hasn't paid as much attention to, it can be significantly more difficult than on another machine.

It's a trade-off, just like everything else. The point ZZ makes is that the long tail is very long, and it's infeasible to polish every use-case. For people hit - in many cases routinely - by those unpolished use-cases, another platform may be more appropriate.

Of course, for Apple laptops, the trade-off is less extreme - it just comes with a surcharge. You could call that the a la carte model: you buy the basic experience, very solid, then you buy what you need - instead of compromising with an inferior experience that does more.

It also doesn't work as well for people who simply can't afford to spend as much for basic computing, i.e. people who need to maximize the return for their money. Fortunately for them, Apple has done an exceedingly good job of slowing addressing more and more basic tasks for home users.

Which is why I see great promise in the Windows 8 (on x86/64) strategy. You can almost think of it as two OS's - here's the legacy desktop OS for traditional PC productivity, and there's the new Metro OS for new-style tablet-and-phone-style apps. Pair this with something like the Lenovo Yoga prototype seen at CES, and you have a single system that can be used in 'PC mode' or in 'tablet mode.'

I feel obliged to reiterate that there aren't actually two "modes" in W8 - there are desktop apps and Metro-style apps, but there's not really any concept of a system-wide desktop or Metro mode. All the system-level features (Alt-Tab, clipboard, Start screen, charms bar, switch, keyboard shortcuts, file and protocol associations, even windowing - if you open Task Manager in "always on top" mode the window will be "on top" of Metro-style apps as well, for example) are accessible no matter what apps are running or visible.

I am fully aware of this; I have been using the Developer Preview as my main OS since the day it became public. I think we could get deeply into the semantics of what you said, and that could conceivably be a contentious discussion (given that, for instance, ARM tablets may not have the desktop "mode" at all) ... but that it does not matter. I said "you can almost think of it as two OS's" because I was trying to construct a rough-and-ready thought framework for the coming possibilities, not because I was trying to pedantically nail down the technical underpinnings.

It's good that you're trying to clarify this; a lot of people seem to be thinking "modally", as if Metro locked you out of the Desktop or vice-versa. I think for some people, this isn't really going to sink in until they have held a tablet/laptop in their hands and personally used both "modes" or sets of features.

It's a new set of options. People are going to think of these options in many ways, and describe them in many ways.

I believe I already said this but I will say it again: This particular argument is based on reading many arguments in Mac Ach and in here.

So, no evidence that it's broadly true? Your contention retreats from 'the Apple Universe' and ' the Apple owner' on the previous page, to 'the Apple crowd' and finally to 'the Mac Ach and in here' ...

Well, do you think that our crowd is really all that unrepresentative? I don't. Our Apple crowd might do these things a little more frequently than the marketplace at large (maybe), but the problems themselves would be the same when they arise and I see no reason to expect they would not with some frequency.

The battery in my unibody MBP bulged with the rather annoying symptom of a non-responsive trackpad. Non-responsive as in has a mind of its own, stuck in a "clicked" state. Took me a while to realize what it was, but removing the battery allowed me to continue working. Fortunately it was one of the models with a removable battery, otherwise I would be stuck with going through service. In the US, at least in a big city, this might be an easy repair, with a very quick turnaround but there are still few Apple stores outside the US. IMO, Apple's design tradeoffs make a lot more sense in their US-centered world, even if they are not showstoppers elsewhere.

Re 'few Apple stores outside the US', as luck would have it, one appeared in my local shopping centre pre-christmas. It's packed every time I go past. Remarkable. But every chain I like that opens in the vicinity goes bust, so I'll short AAPL post-haste.

Re 'few Apple stores outside the US', as luck would have it, one appeared in my local shopping centre pre-christmas. It's packed every time I go past. Remarkable. But every chain I like that opens in the vicinity goes bust, so I'll short AAPL post-haste.

I didn't keep at it asshole. Learn to read. The pointer was stuck "clicked", the system was useless until I removed the battery or disabled the trackpad. I wouldn't have realized it bulged otherwise, OTOH, would you even be able to check if the battery bulged were it built-in?

There are a handful Apple stores in France, Japan, Germany, Spain, Italy. Those aren't exactly small markets. There is no Apple store in Berlin which is quite an important city, beyond having a large population. I don't care to know what poor community you contaminate but it doesn't get me an Apple store within a reasonable distance.

Re 'few Apple stores outside the US', as luck would have it, one appeared in my local shopping centre pre-christmas. It's packed every time I go past. Remarkable. But every chain I like that opens in the vicinity goes bust, so I'll short AAPL post-haste.

I didn't keep at it asshole. Learn to read. The pointer was stuck "clicked", the system was useless until I removed the battery or disabled the trackpad. I wouldn't have realized it bulged otherwise, OTOH, would you even be able to check if the battery bulged were it built-in?

There are a handful Apple stores in France, Japan, Germany, Spain, Italy. Those aren't exactly small markets. There is no Apple store in Berlin which is quite an important city, beyond having a large population. I don't care to know what poor community you contaminate but it doesn't get me an Apple store within a reasonable distance.

As a public service announcement to those who might read your post and not simply dismiss it as anti-Apple nonsense. A lithiuim ion battery (and really any high watt-hour battery) stores A LOT of energy. Enough to potentially kill you if it explodes. If you notice the battery in your laptop is "bulging", please do not try to remove it.

Re 'few Apple stores outside the US', as luck would have it, one appeared in my local shopping centre pre-christmas. It's packed every time I go past. Remarkable. But every chain I like that opens in the vicinity goes bust, so I'll short AAPL post-haste.

I didn't keep at it asshole. Learn to read. The pointer was stuck "clicked", the system was useless until I removed the battery or disabled the trackpad. I wouldn't have realized it bulged otherwise, OTOH, would you even be able to check if the battery bulged were it built-in?

There are a handful Apple stores in France, Japan, Germany, Spain, Italy. Those aren't exactly small markets. There is no Apple store in Berlin which is quite an important city, beyond having a large population. I don't care to know what poor community you contaminate but it doesn't get me an Apple store within a reasonable distance.

As a public service announcement to those who might read your post and not simply dismiss it as anti-Apple nonsense. A lithiuim ion battery (and really any high watt-hour battery) stores A LOT of energy. Enough to potentially kill you if it explodes. If you notice the battery in your laptop is "bulging", please do not try to remove it.

Where are they breeding you lot? It's a first gen unibody MBP, the battery is user replaceable.

I'm a Mac user since 2002. What anti-Apple nonsense are you talking about? You idiots may be anti-this or anti-that. I simply like or dislike a particular product or feature. Grow up.

Tipped my hand how? I pulled the tag on the battery and it came out readily. It's exactly what Apple support would have told me to do (in fact did tell me to do when they denied a replacement under warranty) and what a support tech would have done had I taken it in for "repair".

Apple's design has a drawback, but suggesting this is oh-so-wrong. How typical.

Don't be an ass about this. The argument, and its basis, are now clear to you.

"Evidence" (as in hard data) is the one thing the BF so often lacks and a key reason it lacks it is because a lot of this kind of demographic detail tends to be only available (if it is known at all) behind paywalls. It's a lucky day for us when such things are available to the public. We're luck to even know the general market share numbers (IDC and Gartner, for whatever reasons, seem to think it's OK to give that away). I don't expect better evidence to be available and I haven't looked. I've looked before. Reliable information on peripheral sales are hard to find (but it is clear that peripherals sell -- the public just doesn't get much useful detail).

The argument as it stands either works for you or it doesn't; leave it at that.

When you make bold assertions without even a sliver of supporting evidence - as you are prone to do - you don't get to wax indignant when someone calls you on this.

I made the sources of my assertions clear enough when asked.

And, if you can actually find decent data on peripherals sales, I'd appreciate you posting it up whether it supports or refutes me. As far as I can make out, from several look sees in the past, it simply isn't available in the public sphere. What I've found when I looked is scattered and never relevant to any argument I was making.

I'd love to be proven wrong on that one. But, if you can't find it either, then stop calling for data that isn't out there.

The BF would get awfully quiet if everything required Gartner level survey data for every argument we have.

I'm a Mac user since 2002. What anti-Apple nonsense are you talking about? You idiots may be anti-this or anti-that. I simply like or dislike a particular product or feature. Grow up.

Amazing, this societal effect, wherein the Apple Honks are so caught up in the pissing and dickwaving that they'll shoot one of their own before checking his credentials.

And what will they do next? Just ignore it, it's the anonymous internets, after all. No need to be a man and be accountable. No need for personal growth. Just ignore it and keep doing the same shit as before.

Still, all the bloviating in this thread suggests two things: 1) Apple's mindshare dominance is so complete that it's now apparently impossible to discuss anything techy--even Microsoft for chrissakes--outside of the context of Apple. If there is future for Microsoft beyond the corporate equivalent to a nice condo in Boca and shuffleboard, Microsoft's got an uphill fight, and 2) "The groove" is afflicted with either rabies or Tourette's syndrome.

The first asshole evenlacked the balls to call me stupid outright because the battery in my laptop bulged and I removed it myself instead of taking it to a repair shop where some guy would do the exact same thing. The second tried to claim I was making the story up to hurt the precious Apple.

I'm a Mac user, but also a Windows user these past few years. Neither identifies me. I should get around to setting up a ZFS file server so I should add Solaris or FreeBSD to the mix.

The first asshole evenlacked the balls to call me stupid outright because the battery in my laptop bulged and I removed it myself instead of taking it to a repair shop where some guy would do the exact same thing. The second tried to claim I was making the story up to hurt the precious Apple.

I'm a Mac user, but also a Windows user these past few years. Neither identifies me. I should get around to setting up a ZFS file server so I should add Solaris or FreeBSD to the mix.

Not a big deal, but unpleasant and unnecessary nonetheless. In any event, civility debates are boring, and I am sorry to have started one. Let's get back to Microsoft's irrelevance! Any chance they'll be releasing a Brown Zune Classic one of these days?

Still, all the bloviating in this thread suggests two things: 1) Apple's mindshare dominance is so complete that it's now apparently impossible to discuss anything techy--even Microsoft for chrissakes--outside of the context of Apple. If there is future for Microsoft beyond the corporate equivalent to a nice condo in Boca and shuffleboard, Microsoft's got an uphill fight, and 2) …

It's just breathtaking how the tables have turned so completely over the last ten years or so, where no tech discussion about anything, even Apple, was not put in a context surrounding Microsoft. Remember the $150 million investment in nonvoting shares Microsoft made in Apple in 1997? Hope they hung onto it.

Still, all the bloviating in this thread suggests two things: 1) Apple's mindshare dominance is so complete that it's now apparently impossible to discuss anything techy--even Microsoft for chrissakes--outside of the context of Apple. If there is future for Microsoft beyond the corporate equivalent to a nice condo in Boca and shuffleboard, Microsoft's got an uphill fight, and 2) …

It's just breathtaking how the tables have turned so completely over the last ten years or so, where no tech discussion about anything, even Apple, was not put in a context surrounding Microsoft. Remember the $150 million investment in nonvoting shares Microsoft made in Apple in 1997? Hope they hung onto it.

It has nothing to do with that. Lets face it, many apple users have always framed all apple products against Microsoft. It's never apple is good on it's own, it's that apple is better then Microsoft. If apple succeeds in anything it means Microsoft can not. It's been that case for about 28 years now. This thread is just yet another example of this.

It's just breathtaking how the tables have turned so completely over the last ten years or so, where no tech discussion about anything, even Apple, was not put in a context surrounding Microsoft. Remember the $150 million investment in nonvoting shares Microsoft made in Apple in 1997? Hope they hung onto it.

It has nothing to do with that. Lets face it, many apple users have always framed all apple products against Microsoft. It's never apple is good on it's own, it's that apple is better then Microsoft. If apple succeeds in anything it means Microsoft can not. It's been that case for about 28 years now. This thread is just yet another example of this.

I disagree. Microsoft has always been the elephant in the room, doesn't matter who you're talking about, and yes, it's been that way for years. Time was if you weren't competing against Microsoft it was because they were going to buy you. There was genuine fear about it back in the 90s. I remember it like it was yesterday.

That said, there was a component, among some, of the idea that for Apple to win Microsoft had to lose, but that was back in the bad ol' days, and even Jobs addressed that when he first stepped in as iCEO (and then announced MS's investment). Personally I think that Apple's success has nothing to do with Microsoft's fortunes at all.

(BTW it's cute the way you choose not to capitalize Apple when referring to them as a company.)

Personally I think that Apple's success has nothing to do with Microsoft's fortunes at all.

Trivially not true.

Suppose Microsoft's blundering around with tablets (which it did surprisingly long ago) was actually decent and took off?

It would have likely meant no iPad. At least, not the way we know it now.

I'm not clear on the sequence of Windows Mobile (predecessor to WPx) but if it had been anything like a monster product, there would have been a very different story. Heck, if WP7 had done what Android did, the marketplace would look very different and Apple's valuation would be very different.

These guys have a habit of competing with each other; it's as simple as that. The only difference is, right now, Apple is winning.

So you believe that for Apple to be successful right now, Microsoft must therefore lose?

No, I believe that because they compete in so many major (to each of them) markets and because both have been wildly successful in this or that category, there are going to be times where the success of one will come (to some extent, anyway) at the expense of the other.

So, it's no big surprise that when they compete over and over again that the supporters on either side take note.

So you believe that for Apple to be successful right now, Microsoft must therefore lose?

No, I believe that because they compete in so many major (to each of them) markets and because both have been wildly successful in this or that category, there are going to be times where the success of one will come (to some extent, anyway) at the expense of the other.

So, it's no big surprise that when they compete over and over again that the supporters on either side take note.

So you believe that for Apple to be successful right now, Microsoft must therefore lose?

No, I believe that because they compete in so many major (to each of them) markets and because both have been wildly successful in this or that category, there are going to be times where the success of one will come (to some extent, anyway) at the expense of the other.

So, it's no big surprise that when they compete over and over again that the supporters on either side take note.

Does the same apply to Google with respect to Apple?

In mobile advertising (AdMob vs iAd), sure, but that's not really a high profile business for Apple. Google (an ad/search company) competes much more with MS, ie with Bing/AdCenter. But again, that's not (yet) a high profile business for MS, though clearly they would like it to be.

Of course as a Mac and iOS user I can't exactly switch to Internet Explorer. With Macs selling so well and iOS devices doing many times better one wonders how relevant the IE box will be by... say 2015.

So you believe that for Apple to be successful right now, Microsoft must therefore lose?

No, I believe that because they compete in so many major (to each of them) markets and because both have been wildly successful in this or that category, there are going to be times where the success of one will come (to some extent, anyway) at the expense of the other.

So, it's no big surprise that when they compete over and over again that the supporters on either side take note.

Does the same apply to Google with respect to Apple?

Based on their way of making money, Google competes with every technology company in the world that charges money for their products. Because if users are paying money for a product/service, they are likely seeing less advertising. If they're seeing less advertising, Google makes less money.

They also compete with any company that has a large number of users, since those users and their data become something of a black box. Which is bad for their user data aggregation, which is why they launched Buzz to compete with Twitter and G+ to compete with Facebook.