If a poster claims to be able to live well on, for example, the age pension, or other welfare, then readers need to know what that pension or benefit is, in order to make an accurate assessment of the poster's claim. You actually ASKED me (and you did some research ) what my wage would have been, after i claimed we had given away around a million dollars over the last 43 years .

The figures i gave, including tax reductions and rebates for donations, showed my abilty to give that much away over that time .

I did not believe that you gave away millions on a teachers salary.

This doesn’t mean you are a liar, it means the math doesn’t add up.

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Sherapy 27,257

Sherapy
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"Friends are the people who have "earned their way into my life" Andrew Vachss

Imagine, if you will, a day when all the doubters, sceptics, atheists and general non-believers decided to give up trying to rationalize and discuss with believers on these forums.

I suppose the ufo/crypto/psi/alternative history/ghosts & paranormal forums would all become echo chambers as the faithful of those areas run rampant, high-fiving each other and reinforcing their beliefs with anecdotal tales, spurious articles and dubious videos.

In the theological section, I think there would be a collected sigh of relief that the nasty rationalists had surrendered and given up the field. But I feel that it wouldn't take long for the true believers started to tear into one another, like blood frenzied sharks, as they argued over whose god-construct was real and whose was untenable. Soon enough, the same epithets and accusations that are levelled against the atheists, would be hurled against different factions of true believers.

For now, there is an uneasy alliance between the believers of different deities, following the age-old principle of "The enemy of my enemy...", with doubters being the 'enemy'. While there are a few theists whose views I can admire and respect, most fall into the category of lesser respectable posters. Those who fall back on hyperbole, ridicule, and out right illogic when it comes to defending their claims.

As one erudite and wise man posted, and I am paraphrasing most horribly, "Why continue to try?" Words I took to heart as I reflected on my reasons, and made a decision to no longer debate, question, or try to understand others beliefs. As has been pointed out, faith is apparently a very personal thing, and cannot be demonstrated to another.

eight bits
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There is an eerie similarity between being a Trump supporter and being a believer in other "UM type" topics. Some of it literally - there is a segment of his base that applauds moving the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem because they think that that will hasten Armageddon (and they may be right about that, too).

Anyway, the only path up for Carson in 2020 would be if Trump didn't run again, which is possible, but there is no sign of it. So for Carson, it's probably 2024, if that's the direction he still wants to go. As @Sherapy points out, he really got clobbered in 2016. His campaign had a few good weeks, but it's a marathon, and he was out of it almost as soon as anybody began paying attention to him.

We are in agreement that people need coping mechanisms, life is hard and psyches are fragile. We are in agreement that faith, whether in God, alien amazons or in Making Australia Great Again, is available as a coping mechanism. Of course, it doesn't follow that people need faith, particularly among the available coping mechanisms, although it's been a popular option for ages.

If I wasn't clear when I described coping mecahnisms as barren, then let me try again. Let's pick one, like projection (attributing to somebody else something that is true of oneself, while being unaware that it is true of oneself and unaware of projecting). It's just a particular kind of mistake, one that has the side effect of shoring up the ego.

Mistakes in and of themselves are barren. However, all mistakes offer the potential for improvement - you can recognize the mistake for what it is, and stop making that mistake. In that process, maybe you also learn something about how your mind works, what its strengths and weaknesses are. The mistake is barren, correcting the mistake can be fruitful. Ooops - I lose the beneficial side-effect of a coping mechanism? Well, there are others, plus maybe now that I can see the real problems more clearly, I might opt for a solving mechanism instead.

Historically, correcting the mistake of projection has given us some insight into how the psyche is structured, and insight into unconscious cognitive processing, which turns out to be very rich even thougn by definition we don't observe its richness directly. This is all good. Faith has that potential, too (actually, it's a lot like projection - except with projection, the target actually exists prior to the projection, while with faith, it doesn't matter whether the "target" is real or not).

Nevertheless, in and of itself, faith is an unreliable guide to truth, useful only for its psychological side-effect which can be achieved in other ways and for the potential learning when faith is seen for the indulgent fantasy which it is, and therefore left behind.

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Sherapy 27,257

Sherapy
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"Friends are the people who have "earned their way into my life" Andrew Vachss

There is an eerie similarity between being a Trump supporter and being a believer in other "UM type" topics. Some of it literally - there is a segment of his base that applauds moving the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem because they think that that will hasten Armageddon (and they may be right about that, too).

Anyway, the only path up for Carson in 2020 would be if Trump didn't run again, which is possible, but there is no sign of it. So for Carson, it's probably 2024, if that's the direction he still wants to go. As @Sherapy points out, he really got clobbered in 2016. His campaign had a few good weeks, but it's a marathon, and he was out of it almost as soon as anybody began paying attention to him.

We are in agreement that people need coping mechanisms, life is hard and psyches are fragile. We are in agreement that faith, whether in God, alien amazons or in Making Australia Great Again, is available as a coping mechanism. Of course, it doesn't follow that people need faith, particularly among the available coping mechanisms, although it's been a popular option for ages.

If I wasn't clear when I described coping mecahnisms as barren, then let me try again. Let's pick one, like projection (attributing to somebody else something that is true of oneself, while being unaware that it is true of oneself and unaware of projecting). It's just a particular kind of mistake, one that has the side effect of shoring up the ego.

Mistakes in and of themselves are barren. However, all mistakes offer the potential for improvement - you can recognize the mistake for what it is, and stop making that mistake. In that process, maybe you also learn something about how your mind works, what its strengths and weaknesses are. The mistake is barren, correcting the mistake can be fruitful. Ooops - I lose the beneficial side-effect of a coping mechanism? Well, there are others, plus maybe now that I can see the real problems more clearly, I might opt for a solving mechanism instead.

Historically, correcting the mistake of projection has given us some insight into how the psyche is structured, and insight into unconscious cognitive processing, which turns out to be very rich even thougn by definition we don't observe its richness directly. This is all good. Faith has that potential, too (actually, it's a lot like projection - except with projection, the target actually exists prior to the projection, while with faith, it doesn't matter whether the "target" is real or not).

Nevertheless, in and of itself, faith is an unreliable guide to truth, useful only for its psychological side-effect which can be achieved in other ways and for the potential learning when faith is seen for the indulgent fantasy which it is, and therefore left behind.

Excellent post, very original. I was sitting on the edge of my seat on this one and you did not disappoint!

Carson really did get the p*** beat out of him in those few weeks.

Wow.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Sherapy

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Hammerclaw 25,738

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"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned"
Richard P. Feynman.

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Desertrat56 11,438

Desertrat56
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I find it interesting (somewhat) that a thread started as a discussion of atheism and religion (proof of either?) turned into a rabid discussion on politics. I haven't read every post because it got repetitive pretty soon and I don't feel like going back to find where it turned, just find it intersting. Do political threads shift to religious discussions on this forum?

eight bits
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And it's all my fault, according to the esteemed fellow member, Habbmmie, who posted a political cartoon and whose next post calls me out for being too political.

I didn't say anybody was "tetched in the head," either. You lied when you quoted me. Own your lie and retract it.

And @joc please accept my apologies if I offended you. But I would have said the same thing about some Hilary supporters, some Obama supporters, and so on. There is a niche to political advocacy, right and left, where bigfoot and ancient aliens would feel right at home.

Of Trump, Hilary, and Obama, one of these is not like the others. One of them is currently a contender for a 2020 nomination. So, I went with him for my remarks. Shoot me.

And it's all my fault, according to the esteemed fellow member, Habbmmie, who posted a political cartoon and whose next post calls me out for being too political.

I didn't say anybody was "tetched in the head," either. You lied when you quoted me. Own your lie and retract it.

And @joc please accept my apologies if I offended you. But I would have said the same thing about some Hilary supporters, some Obama supporters, and so on. There is a niche to political advocacy, right and left, where bigfoot and ancient aliens would feel right at home.

Of Trump, Hilary, and Obama, one of these is not like the others. One of them is currently a contender for a 2020 nomination. So, I went with him for my remarks. Shoot me.

You didn't offend me. You are one of the good guys! I like good guys! But @Jodie.Lynne...that's another story ( ) so...I am just going to go ...zzzzzzzzzzip...my little mouth and get back to the topic at hand...which is...uh...

oh yeah....there is no god except for the conceptual fantasies that some people believe to be reality...carry on my friend!

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Aquila King
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Aquila King
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Some wish to be the sun, so they can brighten everyone's day. I wish to be the moon, which shines down on you in your darkest hour.

there is no god except for the conceptual fantasies that some people believe to be reality...

Well as a far-left Social Democrat...

Lol, just kidding.

Anyway, yes. I'd tend to agree. I'm open to the idea of some sort of pantheistic "force" type of thing, maybe, but I make no claim either way. A theistic creator God though, no, I don't believe in that.

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Jodie.Lynne 13,322

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you want to know the answer? Hell, I'm still working on the question!
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