Parishes do not operate like this in the Orthodox home-countries. Is there a Calvinist beneath every American? I hope not. What about just going with the flow? Doesn't that sound more humble, especially for a catechumen?

Exactly! After all, the Lord didn't care when stuff was being sold in the temple. Why should we?

You forget. That happened in the Bible. Only Calvinistic sectarians and gnostics read the Bible.

Our Lord did not object to the sale of doves and sheep, etc., in the temple which people had to buy and offer as sacrifices.

In the same way the Church allows for the sale and purchase of sacrificial candles and prosphora in the church building, at a kiosk or table at the rear of the church.

What He objected to was the money changers in the temple who took the Roman coins with images of Caesar on them which the temple authorities would not accept and changed them, *at an excessive exchange rate*, for image-free temple coinage.

Thank you.

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Something to chew on - a description of the poverty in which many Russian priests live.....

Extract:"The fact is that with very few exceptions the clergy of the Church Abroadreceive a salary that is so far below the poverty line, that all of theseclergymen and their families would be easily eligible for welfare.

Something to chew on - a description of the poverty in which many Russian priests live.....

Extract:"The fact is that with very few exceptions the clergy of the Church Abroadreceive a salary that is so far below the poverty line, that all of theseclergymen and their families would be easily eligible for welfare.

I totally understand this, and I know it applies to my priest, which is why I am very generous to him for services, and often invite him to dine with us. This should be, ideally, the approach of all the faithful. That said, it does not suggest that attaching a price to a sacrament is the answer.

As for catholic relics, I still maintain plenty of admiration for much of the tradition of the Catholic Church, but I must say that She is not a good example of an institution free of simony. Among many other things, it is fairly well documented that the divorce restriction in the RC church tends to fade away for the wealthy. This is the sort of thing that simony leads to, and it's not good.

As for the temple argument concerning candles, prosphora, etc., I'm not at all opposed to payment for these things, even, hard, firm prices, beyond just suggestions. These are material items that cost money, which go to the church for good and holy reasons. I can't see any problems with this.

Paying for objects:OK, great! Making donations for any service to the church or to one's priest, even better! But to me, it just boils down to this: whether the priest is destitute or driving a porsche (something I've also seen in Russia), whether the parishioner is Roman Abramovich or using food stamps, the sacraments of the church should never have a mandatory price, or, in my eyes, even have the intimation of having one. I don't know what could be scandalous about this idea.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 05:11:51 AM by JimCBrooklyn »

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

Do Americans give some payment to the choir members who sing at weddings and funerals?

Or if it is just a psalti, is he paid?

Donations to the priest and choir members for weddings and funerals, should be borne by the godparents.

From my personal experience, it was common, at least in Slavic parishes to for a gratuity to be given to the cantor or choir director for their participation at weddings and funerals. It should be the responsibility of the godfather or the 'starost' at the wedding to see this done. In some cases, it was customary for the priest to 'tip' the cantor. Likewise during house blessing, it was expected to give a gift to the priest a gratuity. For those converts who are upset by these practices, it has to be remembered that this was a way of compensating these people for their services. Compensation from the parish was spotty at best and priests needed to support their families. In the old world priests would receive farm animals, chickens, ducks, vegetables, preserves etc...depending on the season or the region.

Again, I spent my life in the company of priests and priests' families. There were a few and far between stories of priests who would abuse this system by being demanding or overbearing. These men were scorned by their peers and frequently would wash out so to speak and float from small to smaller to smallest parish. Unfair and wrong, but such men did, and probably do, exist. That being said, it shouldn't be a barrier to one's faith.

Sacraments should always be absolutely free, but the people should always be willing to donate what they can & give freely and with love.

They are free, even when you have a price list; in my experience nobody would be refused even if they didn't have the necessary amount of money. It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

I'm so sorry, but what is the purpose behind this question? Jim has every right, no matter what his financial status, to ask the questions he's asking. And my feeling is that he's right in EVERYTHING he's said and that no one would even begin to challenge him had he not mentioned that his financial status is that he is blessed. With all due respect, this question, and many of the comments on this thread, appear to me to be nothing more than envy!

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

So those of us who think that simony has no place in the church are now Gnostics?

I don't know why you're following advice from non-Russians (including myself) in this thread because either they are trying to confuse you or you're trying to "stir the pot."

I concur with Father Ambrose - seek consultation from Church officials in St. Petersburg, RUSSIA not an Internet Forum.

To confirm what? That that is the practice, well then yes ask the Russians. If it is correct, that I expect he will learn only from a fellow American.

Not to confirm anything....

Responses to the OP's question, given by people who lack first hand knowledge of traditions present in other Orthodox Churches (besides their own), started to go around in circles (especially with the injection of Calvinism accusations).

Some of the most heartfelt and beautiful Orthodox weddings and funerals I have attended over the years have been for the poorest of the poor. Let's put an end to this discussion as it has ranged far beyond the simple and honest question asked by the OP. Remember the funeral lamentations of St. John Damascene as all of our bones will be dust and ashes and who will know the rich man from the poor!

My godfather/uncle passed away 6 years ago. All his life he worked for the Church in some capacity. His last years he served in the Altar, helping the priest where needed, keeping the young altar servers in line, etc. He died from complications brought on by a stroke. The last Sunday before he fell ill, he served in the Altar.

When it was time for his funeral, we requested a full Divine Liturgy be served.

Without our asking for another thing, everyone came together to help us bury our beloved uncle. The Divine Liturgy was sung by a full choir, grown men who were once altar servers came to serve again (remembering how my uncle had taught them)....it was like a funeral our parish hadn't seen in a long time.

When we went to make payment arrangements (some to the church, some to the priest, a lot to the choir), nobody would take a penny. They outright refused. Therefore, we simply donated money to the church in honor of my uncle's memory. We gave the priest some money to buy something for the church/altar. He went to Ukraine and brought back a Gospel Book with blue velvet/gold cover. Every time that Gospel Book is raised I think of my uncle.

Therefore, not everyone takes money for performing services. I know first hand.________________

However, it is the responsibility and duty of every parishioners to support their priest and their church. The lights will not stay on, if someone doesn't pay the bills.

Give what you can.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

My godfather/uncle passed away 6 years ago. All his life he worked for the Church in some capacity. His last years he served in the Altar, helping the priest where needed, keeping the young altar servers in line, etc. He died from complications brought on by a stroke. The last Sunday before he fell ill, he served in the Altar.

When it was time for his funeral, we requested a full Divine Liturgy be served.

Without our asking for another thing, everyone came together to help us bury our beloved uncle. The Divine Liturgy was sung by a full choir, grown men who were once altar servers came to serve again (remembering how my uncle had taught them)....it was like a funeral our parish hadn't seen in a long time.

When we went to make payment arrangements (some to the church, some to the priest, a lot to the choir), nobody would take a penny. They outright refused. Therefore, we simply donated money to the church in honor of my uncle's memory. We gave the priest some money to buy something for the church/altar. He went to Ukraine and brought back a Gospel Book with blue velvet/gold cover. Every time that Gospel Book is raised I think of my uncle.

Therefore, not everyone takes money for performing services. I know first hand.________________

However, it is the responsibility and duty of every parishioners to support their priest and their church. The lights will not stay on, if someone doesn't pay the bills.

Give what you can.

Exactly my point. I think that this is something common among 'cradle' communities as the founders had little in the way of material goods, but much in the way of heart and soul. Hence, I can see where there is something of an honest disconnect within this discussion.

My godfather/uncle passed away 6 years ago. All his life he worked for the Church in some capacity. His last years he served in the Altar, helping the priest where needed, keeping the young altar servers in line, etc. He died from complications brought on by a stroke. The last Sunday before he fell ill, he served in the Altar.

When it was time for his funeral, we requested a full Divine Liturgy be served.

Without our asking for another thing, everyone came together to help us bury our beloved uncle. The Divine Liturgy was sung by a full choir, grown men who were once altar servers came to serve again (remembering how my uncle had taught them)....it was like a funeral our parish hadn't seen in a long time.

When we went to make payment arrangements (some to the church, some to the priest, a lot to the choir), nobody would take a penny. They outright refused. Therefore, we simply donated money to the church in honor of my uncle's memory. We gave the priest some money to buy something for the church/altar. He went to Ukraine and brought back a Gospel Book with blue velvet/gold cover. Every time that Gospel Book is raised I think of my uncle.

Therefore, not everyone takes money for performing services. I know first hand.

What a beatiful story and an incredible testimony to his life and service in the Church! May his memory be eternal!

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Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.Matthew 18:5

My godfather/uncle passed away 6 years ago. All his life he worked for the Church in some capacity. His last years he served in the Altar, helping the priest where needed, keeping the young altar servers in line, etc. He died from complications brought on by a stroke. The last Sunday before he fell ill, he served in the Altar.

When it was time for his funeral, we requested a full Divine Liturgy be served.

Without our asking for another thing, everyone came together to help us bury our beloved uncle. The Divine Liturgy was sung by a full choir, grown men who were once altar servers came to serve again (remembering how my uncle had taught them)....it was like a funeral our parish hadn't seen in a long time.

When we went to make payment arrangements (some to the church, some to the priest, a lot to the choir), nobody would take a penny. They outright refused. Therefore, we simply donated money to the church in honor of my uncle's memory. We gave the priest some money to buy something for the church/altar. He went to Ukraine and brought back a Gospel Book with blue velvet/gold cover. Every time that Gospel Book is raised I think of my uncle.

Therefore, not everyone takes money for performing services. I know first hand.

What a beatiful story and an incredible testimony to his life and service in the Church! May his memory be eternal!

Agreed. Very touching.

Memory Eternal!

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For what it's worth, I believe my question has been answered. My faith is not in peril; I wanted, essentially, to be certain that the spirit of cash for salvation was not a pervading/universally accepted sentiment within the church, and I am confident it is not. Of course, none of us, and none of those who, for the most part, do a wonderful job taking care of the church, are perfect, and people will be people. I also understand that there is a cultural context for everything, and that these things, for better or worse, do not seem as strange in Slavic countries, thereby making them harder to break, or more common.

I also think it's an important thing to be aware of, and to be careful about. After all, the mission of the church-at-large is to evangelize, and while these things may not disturb Russians, Serbs or Romanians who have generations of precedent behind them, they may seem very alien and crass to people from other backgrounds who are investigating Holy Orthodoxy. Obviously, the church should never betray Her principles for the sake of attracting converts, but this is not such a case.

I apologize if my involving my own financial status proved to be confusing, or seemed a prideful way to express my feelings; I was merely attempting to be honest and transparent, and to contextualize where I was coming from, and to show that this was not about protecting my own money. I also believe that my position has allowed me to be privy to some of the darker sides of this slippery slope, i.e., favoritism towards the wealthy, and as someone who has been on the receiving end of it, I don't like it, certainly not in a religious context.

Thank you to all for all the thoughtful responses.

Augustin, or any other posters who took exception to any of my assertions, forgive me for any way in which I may have offended you.And know that I am not now, nor have I ever been a Calvinist!

In Christ, Jim

« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 02:26:39 PM by JimCBrooklyn »

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

I'm so sorry, but what is the purpose behind this question? Jim has every right, no matter what his financial status, to ask the questions he's asking. And my feeling is that he's right in EVERYTHING he's said and that no one would even begin to challenge him had he not mentioned that his financial status is that he is blessed. With all due respect, this question, and many of the comments on this thread, appear to me to be nothing more than envy!

I'm so sorry, but what is the purpose behind this question? Jim has every right, no matter what his financial status, to ask the questions he's asking. And my feeling is that he's right in EVERYTHING he's said and that no one would even begin to challenge him had he not mentioned that his financial status is that he is blessed. With all due respect, this question, and many of the comments on this thread, appear to me to be nothing more than envy!

I also think it's an important thing to be aware of, and to be careful about. After all, the mission of the church-at-large is to evangelize, and while these things may not disturb Russians, Serbs or Romanians who have generations of precedent behind them, they may seem very alien and crass to people from other backgrounds who are investigating Holy Orthodoxy.

Here again, I am on the fence. As I have said, I'm not advocating simony. Heaven forfend!

However, as someone who is not an ethnic Orthodox (unless you count being Southern as an ethnicity), just because some customs/traditions/ways of doing things may appear crass or tacky to me does not give me the right (nor the responsibility) to assume the worst and take it upon myself to correct those poor benighted folks. I could certainly ask why, with humility, but not with the assumption that I know best.

(although certainly everything would be much easier and more pleasant for everyone if y'all would simply do like I want you to do! )

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

I'm so sorry, but what is the purpose behind this question? Jim has every right, no matter what his financial status, to ask the questions he's asking. And my feeling is that he's right in EVERYTHING he's said and that no one would even begin to challenge him had he not mentioned that his financial status is that he is blessed. With all due respect, this question, and many of the comments on this thread, appear to me to be nothing more than envy!

It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

Speaking both as a chanter and as a priest's wife, that disgusts me. Just sayin'...

Real world is as it is.

The real world is more complicated than your homogeneous "old country" romanticism.

Well, I mean the life of an average parish in the Orthodox world does not stand up to what you might have read in Frederica's books that probably led you to the "True Church"

What is it with you and MATUSHKA Frederica, anyway? What'd she ever do to you?

Converted.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

Speaking both as a chanter and as a priest's wife, that disgusts me. Just sayin'...

Real world is as it is.

The real world is more complicated than your homogeneous "old country" romanticism.

Well, I mean the life of an average parish in the Orthodox world does not stand up to what you might have read in Frederica's books that probably led you to the "True Church"

You sound more like a hipster with every post. I never read those books but you seem to be familiar with them. Anyway, it's one thing to recognize the way things are and another to hold it up as the ideal because you think it's more authentic. Perhaps you can extol the virtues of "going with the flow" of Romanian anti-semitism?

It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

Speaking both as a chanter and as a priest's wife, that disgusts me. Just sayin'...

Real world is as it is.

The real world is more complicated than your homogeneous "old country" romanticism.

Well, I mean the life of an average parish in the Orthodox world does not stand up to what you might have read in Frederica's books that probably led you to the "True Church"

You are right as there is day and night: the actual praxis may indeed be less than ideal in an average parish. My problem with your approach is not that you believe that we should take into account this average, actual praxis (assuming that your experience represents the average) but that we do not need to even try to move towards the ideal praxis. Forgive me, by the way, if I am wrong in my conclusions regarding your approach. I stand ready to be corrected.

It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

Speaking both as a chanter and as a priest's wife, that disgusts me. Just sayin'...

Real world is as it is.

The real world is more complicated than your homogeneous "old country" romanticism.

Well, I mean the life of an average parish in the Orthodox world does not stand up to what you might have read in Frederica's books that probably led you to the "True Church"

You sound more like a hipster with every post. I never read those books but you seem to be familiar with them. Anyway, it's one thing to recognize the way things are and another to hold it up as the ideal because you think it's more authentic. Perhaps you can extol the virtues of "going with the flow" of Romanian anti-semitism?

I do not believe that "Romanian anti-semitism" is evident in augustine's contributions on this thread or that such a thing is even germane to the topic.

It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

Speaking both as a chanter and as a priest's wife, that disgusts me. Just sayin'...

Real world is as it is.

The real world is more complicated than your homogeneous "old country" romanticism.

Well, I mean the life of an average parish in the Orthodox world does not stand up to what you might have read in Frederica's books that probably led you to the "True Church"

You sound more like a hipster with every post. I never read those books but you seem to be familiar with them. Anyway, it's one thing to recognize the way things are and another to hold it up as the ideal because you think it's more authentic. Perhaps you can extol the virtues of "going with the flow" of Romanian anti-semitism?

I do not believe that "Romanian anti-semitism" is evident in augustine's contributions on this thread or that such a thing is even germane to the topic.

Antisemitism, if given enough time, is germane to every to every topic (see Godwin's Law).

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It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

Speaking both as a chanter and as a priest's wife, that disgusts me. Just sayin'...

Real world is as it is.

The real world is more complicated than your homogeneous "old country" romanticism.

Well, I mean the life of an average parish in the Orthodox world does not stand up to what you might have read in Frederica's books that probably led you to the "True Church"

You sound more like a hipster with every post. I never read those books but you seem to be familiar with them. Anyway, it's one thing to recognize the way things are and another to hold it up as the ideal because you think it's more authentic. Perhaps you can extol the virtues of "going with the flow" of Romanian anti-semitism?

I do not believe that "Romanian anti-semitism" is evident in augustine's contributions on this thread or that such a thing is even germane to the topic.

I'm just saying, if you're going to hold up ordinary corrupt village parish life in Romania as the ideal of Orthodoxy, you ought to be consistent about it.

Well to address the red-herring of anti-semitism, the only places in the Romanian church where one can find such an animal nowadays are a few monasteries (like Petru-Voda) and some zealot organizations (the women members are instantly recognized by their nun-ish looks, the men by their monk-ish appearence) that I have no stomach for anyways, since these folks are also big on "correcting" the "superstitions" of the people. It's simply not the faith I've known in my native place.

It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

Speaking both as a chanter and as a priest's wife, that disgusts me. Just sayin'...

Real world is as it is.

The real world is more complicated than your homogeneous "old country" romanticism.

Well, I mean the life of an average parish in the Orthodox world does not stand up to what you might have read in Frederica's books that probably led you to the "True Church"

You sound more like a hipster with every post. I never read those books but you seem to be familiar with them. Anyway, it's one thing to recognize the way things are and another to hold it up as the ideal because you think it's more authentic. Perhaps you can extol the virtues of "going with the flow" of Romanian anti-semitism?

I do not believe that "Romanian anti-semitism" is evident in augustine's contributions on this thread or that such a thing is even germane to the topic.

I'm just saying, if you're going to hold up ordinary corrupt village parish life in Romania as the ideal of Orthodoxy, you ought to be consistent about it.

Nothing personal. I just find that sort of literature sanctimonious, sirupy and way too much aimed at the middle/upper class.

Like the Fathers?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

It's just that if you pay handsomely more solemnity will be added to the celebration. Otherwise they'll be done on the "fast-track" mode. But even this varies from priest to priest etc.

Speaking both as a chanter and as a priest's wife, that disgusts me. Just sayin'...

Real world is as it is.

The real world is more complicated than your homogeneous "old country" romanticism.

Well, I mean the life of an average parish in the Orthodox world does not stand up to what you might have read in Frederica's books that probably led you to the "True Church"

You sound more like a hipster with every post. I never read those books but you seem to be familiar with them. Anyway, it's one thing to recognize the way things are and another to hold it up as the ideal because you think it's more authentic. Perhaps you can extol the virtues of "going with the flow" of Romanian anti-semitism?

I do not believe that "Romanian anti-semitism" is evident in augustine's contributions on this thread or that such a thing is even germane to the topic.

I'm just saying, if you're going to hold up ordinary corrupt village parish life in Romania as the ideal of Orthodoxy, you ought to be consistent about it.

That is a rather bigoted, elitist statement if ever I read one.

It was Augustin who defended simony as a standard feature of parish life which should therefore be praised and emulated. I'm just saying that, if you're going to make a caricature, be consistent about it.

Nothing personal. I just find that sort of literature sanctimonious, sirupy and way too much aimed at the middle/upper class.

Like the Fathers?

Precisely.And for the record, I haven't read any of her work. It was my connection with one of the "Old" countries that brought me to the steps of the church. While I am guilty of being one of these hated upper class westerners, my marriage with a lower-class easterner, and the independent interest in the east that I possessed which grew exponentially after my marriage, got me here. I do not have an sort of American Orthodox bias; almost my entire experience with the church has been in Russia, and I have almost no experience at all with American Orthodoxy, to be honest. I've never been to liturgy in English, only at Slavonic services in Russia or the US. But while I do adore Russia in many ways, and both symbolically and practically (I go to church in Russia, after all) probably practice my faith in a "Russian" way, I don't let Russia, any nation, or any idea of this group or that group define Orthodoxy, or what is more correct in Orthodoxy.

That's about as PC as I've ever sounded in my life.

Also, did the church ever stipulate that the upper class did not belong among Her flock? So what if certain works allegedly target an upper/middle class audience? Good! More of whoever is more.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 06:21:54 PM by JimCBrooklyn »

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

Well to address the red-herring of anti-semitism, the only places in the Romanian church where one can find such an animal nowadays are a few monasteries (like Petru-Voda) and some zealot organizations (the women members are instantly recognized by their nun-ish looks, the men by their monk-ish appearence) that I have no stomach for anyways, since these folks are also big on "correcting" the "superstitions" of the people.

I think you're just going to have to accept that some people are going to be crazy zealots with fascist sympathies. Why complain? Just go with the flow, dude. Don't be such a Puritan.

Quote

It's simply not the faith I've known in my native place.

You need to cope with the fact that no one else here has been to or likely will ever visit your particular "native place", and therefore no one here is particularly interested in emulating your village life as the gold standard of authentic Orthodoxy.