Rhino_man:Riche: Rhino_man: Holy fark, just imagine the terror after a series of random home invasions turned multiple murders, with videos of the family being brutally murdered left playing on the TV. If you attack public places, people only feel safe in their homes... if you attack homes too... jeebus.

Yeah, mix that in with targeting school busses

[www.d118.org image 400x422]

Wal-Marts on Black Friday:

[img.fark.net image 384x256]

And the security line at airports:

[security-today.com image 700x315]

You would have a seriously freaked out nation pretty quick.

[m0.i.pbase.com image 800x532]Have a shooter at the top or bottom of a long metro escalator empty two 30-round magazines and then run away... the list of ways to fark with the public just goes on and on and on.

Not really. That kid can rot. Just thought someone should take up the other position for the sake of discussion.

kid was 17 and under the influence of another. If you are never EVER going to let him out, then just do him a favor and pop one behind his ear. Locking a man up for the rest of his farking life when he is a teenager is not showing mercy.

Rhino_man:Have a shooter at the top or bottom of a long metro escalator empty two 30-round magazines and then run away... the list of ways to fark with the public just goes on and on and on.

He needs to be at the bottom. And he doesn't need to run away, he could just sit there for half an hour shooting people as they come down the escalator, because you know (At least in America) no one would be able to escape. Couldn't you just picture an escalator full of fat people heavily breathing as they try to move their short flabby legs as fast as they can, but despite their best effort, they are still going down faster than they are going up. And the look of panic on their faces as each fatty down the line gets shot when they reach bottom., I think would be quite comical. But then, I'm a sick, sick person.

for good or for awesome:teenytinycornteeth: Hey look, some people are down with your kind of 'fun talk', some of us are extremely offput. You can't win 'em all.

I think about killing many times a day. I think most men do. It's just part of how we are built and is so common we don't talk about it much.

The only thing that stops me from killing people is my built-in empathy for others, my deeply held moral beliefs, my intellectual aversion to the first use of force, the recognition that I have so much to lose, and the possible legal sanctions against me if I do.

teenytinycornteeth:I can't roll my eyes hard enough. The difference is that we know who Osama and Tom Clancy were because one was established as an actual terrorist and one was established as an actual fiction writer. But when a guy who is already known as a gun "enthusiast" shows up in a public forum and starts in on an outrageously detailed step by step plan to carry out a terrorist attack...when no one else was even discussing it...it is nothing short of creepy. I didn't say you WERE a terrorist. I said you were CREEPY. That you sit around and work out these scenarios for no real reason (for example to write a book or a movie) than to daydream about using your guns is creepy.

dittybopper:LavenderWolf: If the DC sniper/Al Qaeda synthesis happens, it'll be the Republicans with a worthwhile solution, for once.

Arm f*cking EVERYONE.

Wouldn't help: We're talking a single shot from, well, could be *ANYWHERE*. Arming everyone isn't going to help in that situation, because even if everyone is open carrying an AR-15 like those OCTards*, what are they going to shoot at? Each other?

The whole idea of a sniper attack like that isn't like shooting up a mall or school, where you go down in a blaze of glory and take as many as you can with you. It's a single shot from some hidden place that could in theory be hundreds of yards away (or maybe only 50), and because the sniper is hidden and there is only a single shot, you have no idea where the shot came from.

Who would you shoot back at?

*That's going to be my new name for them.

It's not really a "this will stop the attacks" solution so much as "this makes these types of attack much more risky" solution. Like how vaccines work. A vaccine doesn't kill a raging viral infection, but, it can prevent infections from really taking root.

teenytinycornteeth:The difference is that we know who Osama and Tom Clancy were because one was established as an actual terrorist and one was established as an actual fiction writer. But when a guy who is already known as a gun "enthusiast" shows up in a public forum and starts in on an outrageously detailed step by step plan to carry out a terrorist attack...when no one else was even discussing it...it is nothing short of creepy.

While dittybopper wasn't precisely continuing an existing thread in the conversation, it's pretty germane to the discussion. People were talking about how freaked out they were during the D.C. shootings, and to discuss just how easy that is fits in with that conversation. Thought games like this are pretty normal, and actually help by making people think about these kinds of situations without having to literally experience it before people understand the danger and can take action against it.

Being a gun "enthusiast" immediately warrants being thought of as creepy and subject to FBI monitoring? :-P Gimme a break.

LavenderWolf:dittybopper: LavenderWolf: If the DC sniper/Al Qaeda synthesis happens, it'll be the Republicans with a worthwhile solution, for once.

Arm f*cking EVERYONE.

Wouldn't help: We're talking a single shot from, well, could be *ANYWHERE*. Arming everyone isn't going to help in that situation, because even if everyone is open carrying an AR-15 like those OCTards*, what are they going to shoot at? Each other?

The whole idea of a sniper attack like that isn't like shooting up a mall or school, where you go down in a blaze of glory and take as many as you can with you. It's a single shot from some hidden place that could in theory be hundreds of yards away (or maybe only 50), and because the sniper is hidden and there is only a single shot, you have no idea where the shot came from.

Who would you shoot back at?

*That's going to be my new name for them.

It's not really a "this will stop the attacks" solution so much as "this makes these types of attack much more risky" solution. Like how vaccines work. A vaccine doesn't kill a raging viral infection, but, it can prevent infections from really taking root.

In places where population density is higher, it's going to be rather harder to get a spot that's isolated enough that you won't be spotted when you're doing your thing. While one gunshot can be hard to place (if you aren't looking at the location when it happens), if someone sees you building a nest with your rifle it's going to be game on.

Of course, that's why Malvo and his buddy used a vehicle as a mobile hide. That would more than likely be the best way to go about it- a panel van, a pickup truck with a decent sized bed, anything like that would work. If you could use an improvised suppressor it would cut down on risk of detection even more. But the moment anybody spots the thing the cat is out of the bag.

stevarooni:teenytinycornteeth: The difference is that we know who Osama and Tom Clancy were because one was established as an actual terrorist and one was established as an actual fiction writer. But when a guy who is already known as a gun "enthusiast" shows up in a public forum and starts in on an outrageously detailed step by step plan to carry out a terrorist attack...when no one else was even discussing it...it is nothing short of creepy.

Being a gun "enthusiast" immediately warrants being thought of as creepy and subject to FBI monitoring? :-P Gimme a break.

No it doesn't. Nor did I say it was. You must have missed the part where he gave us a four paragraph treatise on how he would carry out a terrorist attack, right down to the kind of gun and caliber of bullet. Look, there are plenty of cool, collected gun lovers on this board, some of them even in this thread who don't, as someone up thread said "think about killing people all day". Like I said, you can't win 'em all, but I know I'm not the only one a bit taken aback by his statement. No skin off my nose.

SirDigbyChickenCaesar:MythDragon: dittybopper: If you had multiple teams that had no knowledge of or contact with the other teams, even if the police do manage to kill or capture one of the teams, that isn't much help in stopping the others.

The best way to do that would be to assign each team a number, except for the first team. They don't get a number, they just get told the date on which to initiate their attacks. The other teams only know what number they are, not how many come after them, and their job is to initiate after the team before them are killed or captured. So team #2 waits until the first team is killed/captured, which they will see on the news, and then they activate. Same with team #3: When they see that team #2 is killed or captured, they activate, and so on.

Also you skip a number. So it goes like team 2,3,4,6. So when they eventualy get captured people start freaking out about were team 5 is.

LavenderWolf:dittybopper: LavenderWolf: If the DC sniper/Al Qaeda synthesis happens, it'll be the Republicans with a worthwhile solution, for once.

Arm f*cking EVERYONE.

Wouldn't help: We're talking a single shot from, well, could be *ANYWHERE*. Arming everyone isn't going to help in that situation, because even if everyone is open carrying an AR-15 like those OCTards*, what are they going to shoot at? Each other?

The whole idea of a sniper attack like that isn't like shooting up a mall or school, where you go down in a blaze of glory and take as many as you can with you. It's a single shot from some hidden place that could in theory be hundreds of yards away (or maybe only 50), and because the sniper is hidden and there is only a single shot, you have no idea where the shot came from.

Who would you shoot back at?

*That's going to be my new name for them.

It's not really a "this will stop the attacks" solution so much as "this makes these types of attack much more risky" solution. Like how vaccines work. A vaccine doesn't kill a raging viral infection, but, it can prevent infections from really taking root.

You know what a pro-gun rights advocate I am, and I'm just not seeing how being armed can help against a random single sniper shot.

And I've *TRIED* to think about ways it might help. And I can't think of any possible way it could help outside of the sniper team making a serious operational mistake.

teenytinycornteeth:stevarooni: teenytinycornteeth: The difference is that we know who Osama and Tom Clancy were because one was established as an actual terrorist and one was established as an actual fiction writer. But when a guy who is already known as a gun "enthusiast" shows up in a public forum and starts in on an outrageously detailed step by step plan to carry out a terrorist attack...when no one else was even discussing it...it is nothing short of creepy.

Being a gun "enthusiast" immediately warrants being thought of as creepy and subject to FBI monitoring? :-P Gimme a break.

No it doesn't. Nor did I say it was. You must have missed the part where he gave us a four paragraph treatise on how he would carry out a terrorist attack, right down to the kind of gun and caliber of bullet. Look, there are plenty of cool, collected gun lovers on this board, some of them even in this thread who don't, as someone up thread said "think about killing people all day". Like I said, you can't win 'em all, but I know I'm not the only one a bit taken aback by his statement. No skin off my nose.

So... you presume he's the only one who has performed this thought exercise? About how he would go about attacking his own defenses?

You'd prefer only the terrorists do this? I mean, the upside there is that every new attack gets to be its own special surprise! It's like your birthday, but with blood and destruction! (So, like your birth day...)

mongbiohazard:FLMountainMan: FLMountainMan: Shaggy_C: Random people get shot in drive-by's in the hood on a daily basis; you only ever hear about it when it becomes excessive (like 40+ people killed on any given Chicago weekend).

Soon as it happens to rich white people at gas stations, though...watch out, national headlines.

Except none of the victims were rich white people.

I mean seriously, this is how ignorant you are. The victims on the first day were a landscaper, a part-time taxi driver named Premkumar Walekar, a Latina babysitter/maid, a woman vacuuming a Dodge Caravan, and a 72 year old retired carpenter named Pascal.

You're forgetting the guy shot the evening before - the first person shot in Montgomery County - was a 55 year old, well-off white guy. And they shot a few well-off white folks in VA after they left MoCo. So it really was a mix of people. Well-to-do white folks among them.

Generation_D:namegoeshere: Generation_D: namegoeshere: kbronsito: How old was he when he committed these crimes?In principle, I don't think juveniles should be sentenced to life in prison. This was a particularly horrible series of crimes and emotionally I'd rather not see him ever get out. But if I think about it more calmly, I'd be willing to let him serve a fairly long sentence and eventually have some experts in the proper psychiatric fields determine if he can ever be let out.

Except he's got nothing better to do during those looooooooong years in prison than figure out how to beat a psych eval.

I feel for the kid. I do. He was groomed for this. It sucks. Had he never met his adult accomplice, he most likely would have been a normal guy. But he did meet him and he was groomed and he did do what he did. He needs to serve his life sentence.

He was 17 BTW.

Strongly dispute that.

Easily led asshats are easily led asshats. If all it takes to motivate you to kill people is to be their father figure, you don't deserve to live in society. Goes for the Manson girls as well. That's why we never let them out either.

At age 17 you are plenty old enough to know right from wrong, and if you crave parental approval so hard you will kill innocent people for it, you don't belong anywhere in a free society, except possibly in the military. And even then there's rules.

What are you disputing? Because I agree that he should serve his full life sentence.

Doesn't mean I don't feel for the kid, though.

I'm disputing that a 17 year old isn't capable of knowing right from wrong, and that he was somehow a victim in this. Or that had he and John Muhammad had never met, somehow he turns out OK. Strongly dispute that. If he was willing to kill to make a father figure happy, he would have found another outlet for it sooner or later, and been just as much a danger to himself or society as a result. With the possible exception of the military being able to use him, but even there I bet he ge ...

If he committed the crimes at 17, he must have been groomed at an earlier age. I do not have all the facts or the expertise to make an informed decision on whether or not this man should ever be let out of prison and I seriously doubt anyone else on this thread does either. I do know that juveniles convicted of crimes should be considered different from adults and that there are ethical implications that should be carefully considered.

dittybopper:Something like that is much less risky from the perspective of a person planning this

You might want to give them some kind of common code for when to act so they can know if the authorities wise up and realize they are activating the teams by broadcasting. That way they aren't sitting around not hearing anything for a few days just wasting valuable killing time.

dittybopper:I've been saying for years that if an organization like Al Qaeda actually wants to commit terrorism in the United States, something like the DC sniper attacks using multiple teams, either concurrently or sequentially, is the way to go.

Those two individuals had the greater DC/NoVA/Maryland area in a panic, and it took a long time to figure out who they were, and they were found out largely because of their own stupidity.

They used an AR-15, *BUT* the nature of their attacks were such that pretty much any rifle would have worked: They fired a single shot at almost all of their victims. Any hunting rifle, even a single shot H&R Handi-rifle like this:

[cdn.armslist.com image 640x341]

would be perfectly adequate for that kind of use and more importantly it wouldn't raise any eyebrows. In fact, they should actively avoid any kind of firearm that might be controversial in any way. Stick to bolt action or single shot hunting and target rifles. Don't try to make them look "tacticool". A well-dressed, shaved Middle-Eastern looking person at a gun range sighting in a target or hunting rifle with well-aimed single shots isn't going to sound any alarm bells. Neither would the purchase of a few boxes of non-military caliber ammunition, especially the kind typically used for hunting or target shooting. No one cares if someone bought 5 or 10 boxes of .243 Winchester.

If you had multiple teams that had no knowledge of or contact with the other teams, even if the police do manage to kill or capture one of the teams, that isn't much help in stopping the others.

The best way to do that would be to assign each team a number, except for the first team. They don't get a number, they just get told the date on which to initiate their attacks. The other teams only know what number they are, not how many come after them, and their job is to initiate after the team before them are killed or captured. So team #2 waits until the first team is killed/captured, which they will s ...

Funny thing is, something like this would achieve one of the (IMO) requirements for terrorism to be successful.

(Again, in my opinion) to successfully work on a western populace, terrorism would have to be something frequent, yet somewhat random. Large-scale attacks and singular spectacular attacks don't cow the population enough; you either have to have near constant attacks everywhere or dramatically larger (ie, nuking multiple cities) to really paralyze a nation.

I don't see westerners ever going, "Give them what they want, just make it stop!" if there's just a bombing every few years. You have to be able to hit at least every month, ideally almost daily, for possibly a few years, in order to get us fatigued to the point of caving to demands.

akula:LavenderWolf: dittybopper: LavenderWolf: If the DC sniper/Al Qaeda synthesis happens, it'll be the Republicans with a worthwhile solution, for once.

Arm f*cking EVERYONE.

Wouldn't help: We're talking a single shot from, well, could be *ANYWHERE*. Arming everyone isn't going to help in that situation, because even if everyone is open carrying an AR-15 like those OCTards*, what are they going to shoot at? Each other?

The whole idea of a sniper attack like that isn't like shooting up a mall or school, where you go down in a blaze of glory and take as many as you can with you. It's a single shot from some hidden place that could in theory be hundreds of yards away (or maybe only 50), and because the sniper is hidden and there is only a single shot, you have no idea where the shot came from.

Who would you shoot back at?

*That's going to be my new name for them.

It's not really a "this will stop the attacks" solution so much as "this makes these types of attack much more risky" solution. Like how vaccines work. A vaccine doesn't kill a raging viral infection, but, it can prevent infections from really taking root.

In places where population density is higher, it's going to be rather harder to get a spot that's isolated enough that you won't be spotted when you're doing your thing. While one gunshot can be hard to place (if you aren't looking at the location when it happens), if someone sees you building a nest with your rifle it's going to be game on.

Of course, that's why Malvo and his buddy used a vehicle as a mobile hide. That would more than likely be the best way to go about it- a panel van, a pickup truck with a decent sized bed, anything like that would work. If you could use an improvised suppressor it would cut down on risk of detection even more. But the moment anybody spots the thing the cat is out of the bag.

An un-altered Ford F-150 with a low-profile tonneau cover. Huge amounts of room in the bed, and you could permanently lock up the tailgate, then remove the plastic handle and turn it into a plug very easily. There's your sight hole, replaceable once you've fired. There are tons of them on the road, so no one would suspect the slightest thing. That, and a suppressor (available at your local gun show), and it would be hell to try to catch you.

LavenderWolf:If the DC sniper/Al Qaeda synthesis happens, it'll be the Republicans with a worthwhile solution, for once.

Arm f*cking EVERYONE.

And then you wouldn't even have to send shooter teams to kill large numbers of Americans. You'd just need to ferment a panic and watch a bunch of liquored up, poorly trained cowboys try to "save the day."

This text is now purple:teenytinycornteeth: stevarooni: teenytinycornteeth: The difference is that we know who Osama and Tom Clancy were because one was established as an actual terrorist and one was established as an actual fiction writer. But when a guy who is already known as a gun "enthusiast" shows up in a public forum and starts in on an outrageously detailed step by step plan to carry out a terrorist attack...when no one else was even discussing it...it is nothing short of creepy.

Being a gun "enthusiast" immediately warrants being thought of as creepy and subject to FBI monitoring? :-P Gimme a break.

No it doesn't. Nor did I say it was. You must have missed the part where he gave us a four paragraph treatise on how he would carry out a terrorist attack, right down to the kind of gun and caliber of bullet. Look, there are plenty of cool, collected gun lovers on this board, some of them even in this thread who don't, as someone up thread said "think about killing people all day". Like I said, you can't win 'em all, but I know I'm not the only one a bit taken aback by his statement. No skin off my nose.

So... you presume he's the only one who has performed this thought exercise? About how he would go about attacking his own defenses?

You'd prefer only the terrorists do this? I mean, the upside there is that every new attack gets to be its own special surprise! It's like your birthday, but with blood and destruction! (So, like your birth day...)

I mean, good luck.[www.ostrichheadinsand.com image 520x342]

I'm pretty sure the point is how much ditty appears to relish such exercises ("fun" he himself noted) that triggers the "that's a little creepy, hoss" reaction in some people. And it's not like his comments in this one thread are seen in any sort of a vacuum here either. The people you're wanting us to compare him to do it for a living, not as some pleasurable fantasy activity pursued in generic public forums online.

akula:Of course, that's why Malvo and his buddy used a vehicle as a mobile hide. That would more than likely be the best way to go about it- a panel van, a pickup truck with a decent sized bed, anything like that would work. If you could use an improvised suppressor it would cut down on risk of detection even more. But the moment anybody spots the thing the cat is out of the bag.

You use a nondescript vehicle, one perhaps with a "convenient" rust hole to shoot through, or a gimmicked license plate or bumper sticker that can be opened and shut quickly and unobtrusively.

For operational reasons, it's got to be a sedan with a decent sized trunk, though. The bed of a pickup truck and the back of a van are accessible to the driver and passengers, and open to view by the police. The locked trunk of a sedan is not. That's important because of roadblocks, which the police will set up in an attempt to capture you.

Needless to say, anything incriminating needs to remain in the trunk. Including the shooter, if you can't stop somewhere completely isolated and let him out, though most sedans have a way to let you fold down the back seat so you can access it.

Also, given the ubiquity of security cameras, you want to avoid anywhere that you might be in close view of one. It's probably unrealistic to think that you can avoid them completely.

One thing you can do that might help is to change the look of the vehicle you use. Obviously, you aren't going to be giving it a paint job every couple of days, but you can do some things to make it look different. For one job, put a CB antenna on the car. For the next, remove that and put some dark tint on the windows. Remove that prior to the next job, and put a bunch of bumper stickers on the car. Remove those, and fill the back window with stuffed animals, etc. Occasionally, if you are a man, dress like a woman, with noticeable breasts.

If you pick a common enough vehicle, it might escape notice if it looks somewhat different each time (assuming they can't read the plate through CSI-like "enhancement").

Riche:Rhino_man: the list of ways to fark with the public just goes on and on and on.

How hard would it be to smuggle explosives into Disneyland? I could imagine the effect of blowing up the "It's A Small World" ride.

Back when the spawn of LoneDoggie were youngsters who just looooved the Small World ride, the Mrs. and I discussed the merits of taking a flamethrower to that place on our 4th or 5th time through. Imagining those little animatronic kids happily singing while melting was quite soothing.

This text is now purple:dittybopper: You know what a pro-gun rights advocate I am, and I'm just not seeing how being armed can help against a random single sniper shot.

And I've *TRIED* to think about ways it might help. And I can't think of any possible way it could help outside of the sniper team making a serious operational mistake.

Like Whitman?[dambreaker.files.wordpress.com image 244x183]

Whitman wasn't really a sniper attack in the sense of a single shot followed by a tactical retreat, like the DC Sniper attacks. That was more akin to a typical mass shooting, though at longer ranges than most.

dittybopper:I've been saying for years that if an organization like Al Qaeda actually wants to commit terrorism in the United States, something like the DC sniper attacks using multiple teams, either concurrently or sequentially, is the way to go.

I think I read it here about the suggestion of stealing a car, getting a couple boxes of road-flares and a road trip through the northwest/southwest/west forests during the dry season. That scares me more than some yokel with a gun.

Benevolent Misanthrope:Skyd1v: Benevolent Misanthrope: That, and a suppressor (available at your local gun show), and it would be hell to try to catch you.

Not without a tax stamp, 6 months worth of paperwork, and the BATFE's approval it's not.

I see you've never been to Georgia.

Guess the ATF needs to go to some gun shows down there.

If your implication is that people are selling illegal "off the books" suppressors at gun shows in Georgia, the point that they're doing it at gun shows is moot. People could do that out of their garage, or even better at a flea market or swap meat someplace. Selling illegal $heit at a gun show is just asking for the "man" to stick it to ya.

Cdr.Murdock:Benevolent Misanthrope: Skyd1v: Benevolent Misanthrope: That, and a suppressor (available at your local gun show), and it would be hell to try to catch you.

Not without a tax stamp, 6 months worth of paperwork, and the BATFE's approval it's not.

I see you've never been to Georgia.

Guess the ATF needs to go to some gun shows down there.

If your implication is that people are selling illegal "off the books" suppressors at gun shows in Georgia, the point that they're doing it at gun shows is moot. People could do that out of their garage, or even better at a flea market or swap meat someplace. Selling illegal $heit at a gun show is just asking for the "man" to stick it to ya.

And yet, people do it. Especially at those huge arena-sized shows in the South. It's damn near impossible to police everything there.

DrBenway: I'm pretty sure the point is how much ditty appears to relish such exercises ("fun" he himself noted) that triggers the "that's a little creepy, hoss" reaction in some people. And it's not like his comments in this one thread are seen in any sort of a vacuum here either. The people you're wanting us to compare him to do it for a living, not as some pleasurable fantasy activity pursued in generic public forums online.

I was offered a position doing pretty much this sort of thing, or, perhaps more accurately, I was informed that there was a Beltway Bandit who was looking for someone like me, and the person offered to put me in touch.

Difficulty: I would have had to move. And I hate moving. I like living in my little podunk town. I've got roots there. I coach Little League, I'm a Cub Scout leader, I have family reasonably nearby, so does the distaffbopper. I've got a decent job that I like, and that will provide the littlebopper free college tuition.

Plus, I'd probably be under some NDA, so I couldn't talk about it publicly. And that kind of rubs me the wrong way too. One way that we learn more is by discussing things. When you limit the amount of discussion, or limit the discussion to just a few people, you don't learn anywhere near as much.

Also, make no mistake about it: The people getting paid to do it also enjoy it, or they wouldn't be doing it. Just because they are paid to do it doesn't make them any less "creepy".

Bottom line, though, I don't see anything wrong with essentially wargaming in a very public manner what the other side might do.

Benevolent Misanthrope:dittybopper: Benevolent Misanthrope: Skyd1v: Benevolent Misanthrope: That, and a suppressor (available at your local gun show), and it would be hell to try to catch you.

Not without a tax stamp, 6 months worth of paperwork, and the BATFE's approval it's not.

I see you've never been to Georgia.

It's federal law.

And...?

Seriously - do you guys honestly think no illegal sales go on at private gunsmiths and gun shows?

At gun shows? Very little to none. Ever been to one? I've been to a bunch. There is always a uniformed police presence in my experience, and you never know who is or isn't an undercover agent.

If someone offered for sale an actual suppressor without going through the NFA, or wanted to buy a suppressor without going through the NFA, well, that's Admiral Akbar territory there. Only the congenitally stupid wouldn't think it was an ATF or other police agency conducting a sting operation.

Now, if you're talking about private individuals selling their own individual guns at gun shows without any background checks, that's not illegal (depending on state law).

FLMountainMan:Benevolent Misanthrope: dittybopper: Benevolent Misanthrope: Skyd1v: Benevolent Misanthrope: That, and a suppressor (available at your local gun show), and it would be hell to try to catch you.

Not without a tax stamp, 6 months worth of paperwork, and the BATFE's approval it's not.

I see you've never been to Georgia.

It's federal law.

And...?

Seriously - do you guys honestly think no illegal sales go on at private gunsmiths and gun shows?

Can provide evidence to the contrary?

Ummm... human nature?

I don't say that it's the norm and all dealers or private individuals at shows are breaking the law. Of course not. But when I was a gun owner, before I moved to Canada, I was informed by members of the Revolutionary War Veterans, a couple militia types and some really odd guys at the range that if I ever wanted a suppressor or silencer, they weren't hard to come by. You can get them at the gun show, if you know the right guy. Certainly from a home sale.

Maybe things have changed. But it was always kind of common knowledge that if you wanted something not strictly legal, you could find it at a gun show.

Benevolent Misanthrope:And yet, people do it. Especially at those huge arena-sized shows in the South. It's damn near impossible to police everything there.

Somehow I doubt that it's a common occurrence. I'm sure it has happened, but the ATF isn't shy about conducting sting operations at gun shows, and walking around asking for, or offering, a suppressor in contravention of the National Firearms Act is going to make pretty much everyone there think you are an ATF agent yourself, and they'll not deal with you.

Publikwerks:Shaggy_C: Random people get shot in drive-by's in the hood on a daily basis; you only ever hear about it when it becomes excessive (like 40+ people killed on any given Chicago weekend).

Soon as it happens to rich white people at gas stations, though...watch out, national headlines.

[s3.amazonaws.com image 500x212]

Because for all of history Black people have proved themselves as a group as no account, they let people grind them as a group into the dust and feed on their own Shiat. why should the rest of us care when they don't? crabs in a bucket one tries to climb out the rest pull it back down.

Skyd1v:Benevolent Misanthrope: That, and a suppressor (available at your local gun show), and it would be hell to try to catch you.

Not without a tax stamp, 6 months worth of paperwork, and the BATFE's approval it's not.

When I got my Octane .45, it was 10-11 months. The email I received from the ATF yesterday indicated regular paper Form 4 submissions are being processed in 9 months right now.

Benevolent Misanthrope:And yet, people do it. Especially at those huge arena-sized shows in the South. It's damn near impossible to police everything there.

People aren't selling real suppressors at gun shows without paperwork. Not a chance in hell. Not only would they be found out quickly (the ATF goes to gun shows too), but legally manufactured ones are tracked individually. For it to go from dealer to dealer requires paperwork, and THAT form is running about 2 month backlog right now. People who know NFA law can be found at any gun show and they aren't going to turn a blind eye to someone selling illegally made ones without following the law. So yeah, I'll call BS on this... and I'm doing it as someone with NFA registered items.

Sure, they're not that hard to make or fashion, but you just aren't going to walk into a gun show to buy one. Yes, it wouldn't be hard for a shooter to make one, but it likely wouldn't last more than a shot or two if you're using a real rifle cartridge... those generate pressures that blow stuff apart. And that's to say nothing of the heat generated by one... I was melting stuff with my 5.56 can after a couple magazines through it (and I wasn't doing mag dumps- they get HOT). They don't muffle things to Hollywood-quiet either... not even close for a high pressure supersonic rifle round. With something like a subsonic .300BLK, sure, it would be much quieter, but then your range is way down from something moving faster (as the aforementioned .243).