sjnhiils wrote:We passed up Toews and Kessel and drafted Staal in 2006 with the second pick in the draft. If we couldn't get Skinner(sixth pick of the draft in 2010) straight up for Staal in 2012 , then obviously Staal wasn't a good pick in 2006 and not as good as everybody made him out to be in 2012.

Just re-read that out-loud and slowly to yourself. I added dates for you.

sjnhiils wrote:We passed up Toews and Kessel and drafted Staal in 2006 with the second pick in the draft. If we couldn't get Skinner(sixth pick of the draft in 2010) straight up for Staal in 2012 , then obviously Staal wasn't a good pick in 2006 and not as good as everybody made him out to be in 2012.

Just re-read that out-loud and slowly to yourself. I added dates for you.

"pcm" stated that instead of Sutter, we could have gotten other assets back . I just said that it would have been nice to get Skinner . You turned that into Skinner being untouchable and somehow inferring that I didn't "know him" I don't need you to inform me about him and I don't need to read it slowly. So was Staal as good as everybody said he was and if yes why couldn't we get Skinner straight up for him. Are you saying Caolina would rather deal Sutter, Dumoulin and a no.1 pick over Staal for Skinner. Skinner was coming off of a season that saw him score only 20 goals after putting up 31 the year before. If it would have been Staal for Skinner straight up I'm sure a lot on this board would have cried about not getting enough. Now that Staal hasn't lit the world on fire it is revisionist history. Pick apart and parce my words again, don't really care anymore.

sjnhiils wrote:"pcm" stated that instead of Sutter, we could have gotten other assets back .

Why? We needed Sutter to fill in for the loss of Staal. Being a RHS center that can handle tough minutes, he gives us a DZ advantage on faceoffs that Staal could not provide.

sjnhiils wrote:I just said that it would have been nice to get Skinner .

Yeah, it would have been nice to get Justin Faulk too...

sjnhiils wrote:You turned that into Skinner being untouchable and somehow inferring that I didn't "know him" I don't need you to inform me about him and I don't need to read it slowly.

At the time, I'm quite certain he was untouchable. Now that he has a few dings and dents, I'm not sure, but at the time we're talking about (those dates that I added served a purpose), he had to have been one of the more untouchable pieces in the organization...I mean, he had more ES goals and goals overall in his first two years as a teenager than Dupuis and Kunitz did playing with superstars in 2010-11 and 2011-12. I just assumed that if you thought he was available for Jordan Staal (and thought he was so fast...?) that you weren't overly familiar with him. Which is understandable, I mean, I pretty much only watch the Hurricanes for Justin Faulk and John Forslund...I can't imagine why a Penguins fan would subject themselves to Canes Hockey on a regular basis...

sjnhiils wrote:So was Staal as good as everybody said he was

Everyone didn't say the same thing about him. So, it really depends on what side you're listening to...

sjnhiils wrote:and if yes why couldn't we get Skinner straight up for him.

Hopefully this has been addressed above. I still squint my eyes at it though, in a rather confused manner, I gotta say...

sjnhiils wrote:Are you saying Caolina would rather deal Sutter, Dumoulin and a no.1 pick over Staal for Skinner.

Ding, ding, ding...what do we have for him, Johnny? I don't think it's remotely close either...

sjnhiils wrote:Skinner was coming off of a season that saw him score only 20 goals after putting up 31 the year before.

Crosby was coming off of a year where he scored 8 goals, after scoring 32 the year before. I have nipples, Greg, could you milk me?

sjnhiils wrote:If it would have been Staal for Skinner straight up I'm sure a lot on this board would have cried about not getting enough.

Only the people that didn't know who Jeff Skinner was. All others would be elated. Quality >>>>> Quantity

sjnhiils wrote:Now that Staal hasn't lit the world on fire it is revisionist history. Pick apart and parce my words again, don't really care anymore.

Jordan is a really good player. Capable of being a decent second line center in this league. Just because he's off to a slow start this season doesn't cancel that out. Combine proper talent evaluation and Jordan's history and it would be fair to assume that these 20 games to start this season are the abnormal, while the other 500 games are the normal. We shall see...

I'm not sure I want to go back and read to attempt to figure out how a thread on Dustin Jeffrey got changed into a discussion on what the pens got back for Staal.

If the Stars put Jeffrey on waivers this year can the Pens claim him and put him in the AHL immediately? How does that work under the new CBA? Do they get that option before other teams do. I know when the Pens had Boychuk from Carolina last year there was some talk that he'd end up back in Carolina, which I think he eventually did.

If you watch the videos of Jeffrey's goals its clear they either come from him being right in front of the net or just flat out blowing it past the goalie from above the faceoff dots. The guy has an above average NHL shot. There aren't many guys on teams capable of doing that to un-screened goalies. I expected him to be better than Letestu and stick in the league.

sniper wrote:I'm not sure I want to go back and read to attempt to figure out how a thread on Dustin Jeffrey got changed into a discussion on what the pens got back for Staal.

If the Stars put Jeffrey on waivers this year can the Pens claim him and put him in the AHL immediately? How does that work under the new CBA? Do they get that option before other teams do. I know when the Pens had Boychuk from Carolina last year there was some talk that he'd end up back in Carolina, which I think he eventually did.

If you watch the videos of Jeffrey's goals its clear they either come from him being right in front of the net or just flat out blowing it past the goalie from above the faceoff dots. The guy has an above average NHL shot. There aren't many guys on teams capable of doing that to un-screened goalies. I expected him to be better than Letestu and stick in the league.

Unless something changed, I believe that if the Stars waive him and the pens claim him, he has to stay in the NHL unless he clears waivers.

sjnhiils wrote:"pcm" stated that instead of Sutter, we could have gotten other assets back .

Why? We needed Sutter to fill in for the loss of Staal. Being a RHS center that can handle tough minutes, he gives us a DZ advantage on faceoffs that Staal could not provide.

sjnhiils wrote:I just said that it would have been nice to get Skinner .

Yeah, it would have been nice to get Justin Faulk too...

sjnhiils wrote:You turned that into Skinner being untouchable and somehow inferring that I didn't "know him" I don't need you to inform me about him and I don't need to read it slowly.

At the time, I'm quite certain he was untouchable. Now that he has a few dings and dents, I'm not sure, but at the time we're talking about (those dates that I added served a purpose), he had to have been one of the more untouchable pieces in the organization...I mean, he had more ES goals and goals overall in his first two years as a teenager than Dupuis and Kunitz did playing with superstars in 2010-11 and 2011-12. I just assumed that if you thought he was available for Jordan Staal (and thought he was so fast...?) that you weren't overly familiar with him. Which is understandable, I mean, I pretty much only watch the Hurricanes for Justin Faulk and John Forslund...I can't imagine why a Penguins fan would subject themselves to Canes Hockey on a regular basis...

sjnhiils wrote:So was Staal as good as everybody said he was

Everyone didn't say the same thing about him. So, it really depends on what side you're listening to...

sjnhiils wrote:and if yes why couldn't we get Skinner straight up for him.

Hopefully this has been addressed above. I still squint my eyes at it though, in a rather confused manner, I gotta say...

sjnhiils wrote:Are you saying Caolina would rather deal Sutter, Dumoulin and a no.1 pick over Staal for Skinner.

Ding, ding, ding...what do we have for him, Johnny? I don't think it's remotely close either...

sjnhiils wrote:Skinner was coming off of a season that saw him score only 20 goals after putting up 31 the year before.

Crosby was coming off of a year where he scored 8 goals, after scoring 32 the year before. I have nipples, Greg, could you milk me?

sjnhiils wrote:If it would have been Staal for Skinner straight up I'm sure a lot on this board would have cried about not getting enough.

Only the people that didn't know who Jeff Skinner was. All others would be elated. Quality >>>>> Quantity

sjnhiils wrote:Now that Staal hasn't lit the world on fire it is revisionist history. Pick apart and parce my words again, don't really care anymore.

Jordan is a really good player. Capable of being a decent second line center in this league. Just because he's off to a slow start this season doesn't cancel that out. Combine proper talent evaluation and Jordan's history and it would be fair to assume that these 20 games to start this season are the abnormal, while the other 500 games are the normal. We shall see...

You totally contradicted yourself. The whole point was that we could have got other assets for Sutter. On one hand you say we needed Sutter back to replace Staal, but you go on to say that Sutter,Dumoulin and a no.1 is not even close to Staal for Skinner. If that is the case, how valuable could Sutter have been? After I said Staal hasn't lit the world on fire, you suddenly stick up for Staal even though you didn't think he could bring Skinner back in a trade. I was also going by last year and his 10 goals in 48 games while being a -18, not just the 20 this year. Combine "proper talent evaluation" and his history of never being a big scorer in juniors and we shall see who is right in the long run

- Explain the contradiction.- Could we have gotten other assets for Staal from Carolina? If so, what...but also, if so, why? What was wrong with the haul? How did it not address our needs while fitting in our cost structure?- Sutter, Dumoulin and a first < Skinner...yes.- How valuable was Sutter? Roughly, Staal minus a "B" prospect and a first.- I "stick up" for Staal because he's a good player. Skinner is a more valuable asset. You're having trouble determining asset value vs. value to a club and associated nuances and context.- Interesting that assists are removed when citing statistics of a center. Dubious claim at best. 31 points in 48 games beats career average in points per game, finished about 30th among centers in scoring in a 30-team league...deemed not good enough, strange.- "proper talent evaluation" does not involve citing junior statistics, of course. Unless you want us to sign Maxime Boisclair tomorrow...he's not busy.- I'm already right as I've made no future predictions, merely recounting the past and/or assessing the present.

There was also a salary cap issue with Staal. No way the Pens could keep him along with all the other players they currently have. So when we consider value and assets, we must also consider the other players the team was able to keep or sign with that extra cap space. Scuderi was a much needed addition, as we saw at the beginning of the season. Keeping Dupuis for the price was a good signing. Dumoulin will be a cap friendly player on his entry level deal. Sutter is paid to be a third line center, he produces like a third line center, and that I have no problem with. And not that it matters, but Staal hasn't exactly lit the world on fire for Carolina.

Same number of games... Staal is a -18 in Carolina, Sutter a +5 here. Staal has 13 goals, Sutter 15. Staal 38 points, Sutter 28. Staal has 3 times the salary of Sutter. In the non-video game world I am very okay with the trade.

All I know is, I love feeling comfortable and safe whenever I see Sutter on the ice against the OV's, Stammer's, Nash's, Giroux's, etc.... of the world. That's a pretty nice luxury to have when you also have Crosby and Malkin each centering a scoring line.

I havn't followed the Skinner Sutter Staal debate to much but i think anyone who thinks Carolina would of made Skinner availible in a trade is nuts. Carolina was trying to get better with this trade and keep their core in place by adding Staal to it. Now i am sure Shero would of taken Skinner if he was availible but he clearly was not.

Shero did great concidering the circumstances he was in but if we could of made a deal with any team i think the return for Staal would of been alot better than what we got, esp. the nhl ready talent we got back.

Jim wrote:Same number of games... Staal is a -18 in Carolina, Sutter a +5 here. Staal has 13 goals, Sutter 15. Staal 38 points, Sutter 28. Staal has 3 times the salary of Sutter. In the non-video game world I am very okay with the trade.

Staal is one of the most overrated players in the league...Luckily for Shero, Staal turned down the 10 year $60MM deal he offered him!