Just some thoughts about beetles and moths from a newbee...please don't flame me for stating what I've "read" or for not doing a controlled study to defend a statement that I might make. These are just musings, ponderings, thoughts, whatever of what's going through my damaged mind. :-\

On November 26th I will have had bees for a total of one entire year...wow, I must be a professional by now, eh? Yeah, right! :roll: I have tried, though, to study hard and do as much reading and working with the bees as I can...hopefully I've learned something since last summer when I first started studying honey bees. I know November was an odd time to get bees, but for astronomical price of $1 a frame for a very small colony of bees I didn't have a lot to lose (and my mentor and his best friend wanted me to have some bees to "tinker" with). Those bees didn't make me any honey this year (though another colony did)...I know the small colony swarmed once and possibly twice this spring, but they're doing fine at the moment...a fairly strong colony readying itself for the goldenrod and one that I hope will give me a honey crop in 2013! The odd year we've had and the bees swarming more than normal really kept me on my toes. It's been an educational experience so far, to say the least!

A bad experience, though, was a swarm I hived in the spring that wax moth eventually destroyed. I've heard people say that wax moth destruction is the fault of the beekeeper. Well if that's so I'll take the blame. For whatever reason, I lost it and I wasn't happy. I don't want that to happen again, it was nasty. From what I understand beetle destruction can be as bad or worse. The moths hit me out of left field as I had been focusing on small hive beetles and wasn't paying enough attention to the moths. My bad. So now I'm focusing on both of them...moths and beetles.

The army of beetles out there seem to outnumber the moths but both are equally deadly to a honey bee colony...and they *are* deadly. You beeks living up in the far northern areas are blessed not to have to deal with these beetles!

For the moths I'm trying to treat all of my comb with Bt. I've also got a few yellow-jacket/wax moth traps around the edge of the woods. Not really a whole lot you can do about wax moths and the usual recommendation is to "keep your bees strong" which can also be applied to combating beetles.

Protecting comb from wax moth while it is in storage is another matter. Some methods include freezing frames of comb for a few days and then storing in a sealed container...open-air storage of frame-filled supers so that the light and air discourage the moths from laying in the comb....para-moth crystals...Bt....? It seems there might be more alternatives to protect comb from moths than there is to protect the actual colony from them. There's not, from what I can find, many traps or repellents (other than the bees themselves) that we can use against the moths.

With the beetles there seems to be more "things" a beekeeper can do. I believe local enviroment plays a major role in determining whether a bee yard will be prone to heavy beetle infestation or not. I've wondered if the beetles actually sense whether an area is a good breeding area for their species. It seems that the beetles prefer shady spots and moist, loose soil. Many people have reported that hives in dry sunny areas sitting on hard-packed ground or even on rock have much lower problems with beetles. Conversely, I have read many reports of people being overwhelmed by beetles when their hives are in shady, moist locations. To me a sunny, arid, location with hard ground beneath *seems* to be a favorable spot for low beetle numbers. My hive is in full sun except maybe the last hour or two of the day, but it sits on some sandy topsoil. Thankfully the area stays fairly dry.

The other "things" beekeepers can do mostly boil down to using several different types of traps. Some traps consist of small plastic containers filled with vegetable oil or mineral oil and often in conjunction with a "lure". Ripe banana(1) with apple cider vinegar is often mentioned as a lure (I use this mixture). The beetles either enter these traps attracted to the lure or they crawl into the traps attempting to flee bees that are chasing them. These traps are usually placed between frames inside of the hive...types of traps such as these are the Beetle Blasters, Beetle Jail's, etc.,. Moving on to more complex in-hive traps there are the the Hoods Trap, Beetle Jail frame traps, etc.,.

There are oil trays that use only oil (no lure) that slip beneath the screened bottom boards...these are good at catching beetles and other critters (wax moth larvae, beetle larvae, love-bugs, ants, pollen, specks of wax, etc.,) The oil trays can also catch plenty of bees if they have a gap big enough for them to crawl through, so care should be used to insure there is no way bees can enter into the confines of the oil tray. I like the idea of oil trays as they accomplish a couple of things...they catch any thing falling/crawling out of the hive through the screened bottom board and they also block off the bottom from entrance from the outside by pests small enough to go through the usual #8 mesh. My setup with oil trays leaves a small gap between the wooden perimeter and the lip of the tray...not big enough for a bee to get through but big enough for some ventilation. That gap will unfortunately allow beetles to crawl through but hopefully when they crawl in they hop or fall on down to the bottom and into the oil. ;)

One thing I decided to do is use mineral oil in the trays. It doesn't go rancid (that I can tell), it doesn't seem attract ants, and from what others have told me it doesn't attract raccoons or other like-minded critters.

There are also the "cd" traps AKA "Beetle Barns". A lure with something to kill (poison?) the beetles is placed inside these thin cases. They can be slid onto the bottom boards, on top of frames, or on top of the inner cover. The beetles enter in through a small entrance that is too small for the bees to go into, the beetles eat the lure/poison...and die. Fipronil, DE, boric acid, are some of the killing agents used. I don't believe any of these are labeled for use inside of honey bee hives. Fipronil is a very toxic poison and should be used with EXTREME caution. I have some Beetle Barns that I'm thinking of using with a lure in the center and a sticky trap encircling the lure...the beetles would go inside for the food but get stuck in doing so...no poison, nothing toxic. Maybe Tanglefoot or even smearing some goop off of fly-strips might work. ?

There are other styles of diy traps such as the coroplast signs (election signs) filled with a lure and a killing agent. Again, the beetles can crawl inside the channels but the bees can't. There's the tupperware container with the small holes in the side and oil and lure inside...can't remember the name of it.

Other things to do in combating beetles are ground drenches such as Gardstar or beneficial nematodes. There are folks that really believe in these and there's folks that really don't. I like the idea of the nematodes and may one day try them. The problem with these two items is that they help "after the fact"...after the larvae have already exited the hive (and most likely destroyed it) and are seeking to pupate in the ground. We need to kill the beetles before they get to this point.

To *me*, of all the beetle prevention tactics, both the between frame traps and the oil tray traps seem to be the better courses of action in regards to traps. From reading and my own experience they seem to do about the best in catching beetles.

So, we've got some traps for the beetles...some Bt for moths. It seems to me, though, that if we could reduce these pests access to the inside of the hive that the traps and other things could be made more efficient, the bees wouldn't have to work as hard as chasing their enemies inside their hive, and there would be fewer bees doing guard duty over corralled/jailed bees.

What I have done so far which I think will help limit pest access are these things...

I've installed the close-fitting oil trays beneath the screened bottom boards...these will limit greatly access into the hive via the screened bottom boards. I know I could run solid bottom boards and even run them in conjunction with screened bottom boards and an oil tray, but I couldn't open the bottom up in the heat of the summer...it gets hot down here in south Alabama. Anyhow, the small gap around the lip of the tray allows for a little ventilation...beetles that come through the small gap have a good chance of going into the oil.

Up top on the inner cover I was running #8 mesh over the porter escape hole and round feeder holes...the mesh made it easy to feed without bees flying up at me (newbee, remember!). I normally keep the top cover propped up a touch. Occasionally I'd find a beetle or two on top of the inner cover and sometimes between the mesh and the wood. I've killed wax moth up there, too. I'm sure that more beetles and moth than what I have seen have gone through that #8 mesh. So, the other day when I replaced my regular screened bottom boards with the modded ones with oil trays I replaced the #8 mesh on the inner covers with regular window screen. There is no way beetles or moth will enter the hive from up top now. I'm thinking of trying some of those sticky-trap Beetle Barns on top of the inner cover and maybe even one of those Mel & whats-his-name tupperware traps with some fruity, oily mix to trap wax moth.

The last point of entry is the main entrance of the hive. I'm still debating on a couple of ideas here. Of course there's no way to stop all pests from entering, but if I can cut the numbers down significantly the bees will be better able to deal with both the beetles and moths.

Restricting pests from entering the main lower entrance is as simple using an entrance reducer. Reducing the entrance by 50% means the guard bees have half as much territory to guard and can concentrate there efforts in a much smaller area. Reducing the entrance also cuts down on ventilation so being able to prop up the telescoping top a bit since the window screen is in place is a good thing. The small gap around the oil tray helps with venting, too. Many feral colonies have entrances much smaller than what we're talking about here. But, lots of the feral colonies also choose a cavity in more shade than what my hives have...something to think about.

Hmmm, this is getting a little long-winded. I'll cover one more thing and then I'll quit.

With access through the inner cover halted and the lower main entrance reduced beetles can still come in. Moths can, too, for that matter but hopefully the bees will evict the moths. Since the beetles usually land on the landing board and scurry into the hive I figure there ought to be something there waiting for them. The Beetle Jail entrance traps are nice. I have a friend who bought one last year that I'm going to be seeing soon. I'll find out how it worked out for him. What I am thinking about (I'm cheap) is modding once again my screened bottom boards. I'm thinking about replacing the front four inches of #8 mesh on the bottom boards with galvanized sheet metal (thinner aluminum flashing would be easier to work with). In the sheet metal would be cut several slits "in-line" with each other and parallel with the front entrance. After that row of slits another row of slits would be positioned staggered to cover the gaps between the first row of slits, and this pattern repeated for a couple of more rows. The beetles run in, are hopefully harassed by bees, see a nice dark hole to dive into and SPLASH!!..they're in the oil. I've thought of two different types of slits. The easiest made would be where both edges of the slit point downward towards the oil tray. This type of slit would not leave any sharp edges to injure bees (I don't know if that is a valid worry or not). The second type of slit would be more difficult to fabricate. It would have the edge that points towards the entranced bent upwards and the edge that points to the rear bent downward. With this type of slit when the beetles run inside they run up against the raised edge. The raised edge would hopefully direct the beetles to follow the downward slope of the other side of the slit...kind of a natural guidance system to the oil. :) The slits could be sized closer to the magic #7 mesh size, too.

Anyhow, so much for my newbee thoughts. Talk about rambling!!!!!! And I haven't even met Mr. Varroar, yet!!!!! :shock:Ed

(1) Note: I have seen it stated that banana will cause the bees to react as if it was alarm pheromone and incite them to sting. I haven't seen any evidence of this when using banana in my lure mix and many other people are using it with apparently no problems but you're on your own if you try it. :-D

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www.beeweather.comAmerican blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world. 320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror". Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA. But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

www.beeweather.comAmerican blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world. 320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror". Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA. But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

* As for the screened top, use alumunum window screen. The SHBs cannot get thru that.* Reduce the entrance to an inch or so. Much easier for the bees to defend.* Regarding "lures", be careful you don't "attract" the SHBs. I wouldn't lure, just trap.* Sunshine probably does help, but the SHBs mostly come at twilight (I think), just like in "Aliens".* Get the hives up off the ground at lease a foot or so.* Hard cover under the hive should help stop procreation and vegetation. Cement, patio stones, plastic etc.

I lost my my first Nuke to them, it was ugly. Good luck!

I think Hardwood has dispelled the banana myth several times over. The man knows bees.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

OK, I will throw this out there. At our last bee club meeting, a guy that is an instructor for bee classes, told he had a few hives in a mostly shaded area and put a clear plexiglass top on them. He said you may still have beetles down in the hive but none were on the top. I have been trying to figure how to build a hive with acrylic or plexiglass hive boxes, and how if you could do that, get them so they wouldn't get to much condensation. Still figureing.

JThe army of beetles out there seem to outnumber the moths but both are equally deadly to a honey bee colony...and they *are* deadly. You beeks living up in the far northern areas are blessed not to have to deal with these beetles!

I have not read a lot on SHB yet. Living in the north, I don't think they'll winter over, but I imagine we see them up here--from southern package bees at the very least. I intend to use a screened bottom board with oil tray if necessary. I will probably make my SBB, and I considered, putting a gap between the screen and the "landing board" just big enough for SHB to go in (with an oil tray below.)

Please let us know what you think about the Beetle Jail entrance trap--it looks very interesting, but is pricey.

Thanks for the benefit of your experiences. I'm a year behind you (in the studying stage, will start a hive next spring. In fact, my first Beekeeping class is tomorrow.) I sure am getting a great education on this forum.

Bee Curious, join a local club also. An you may want to check out You Tube , just type in what you would like to see. There are numerous sites were you can pick up bee stuff also, this site has a lot. Good luck with the class and bees once you get em.

Bee Curious, join a local club also. An you may want to check out You Tube , just type in what you would like to see. There are numerous sites were you can pick up bee stuff also, this site has a lot. Good luck with the class and bees once you get em.

Joe,

There isn't a bee club too near me, but I think I'll drop in on the Windy City Beekeepers' meetings. I've met some of their members and they were great. The next nearest club that I've found is about 30+ miles away.

I use YouTube all the time. I tell people that I'm a graduate of YouTube University because I learn so much there! I also have been haunting this and other bee forums, blogs, and merchants' websites. I'm really itching to get started.

Joe, the idea of a clear cover just kinda seems odd to me (of course I seem odd to a lot of folks myself!). From my understanding, bees don't like light in their hive so I'm not sure how this would affect hive activity. If all a clear cover does is drive the beetles down into the hive proper then you can't squish them with your hive tool or smush them with your finger against the inner cover or the migratory top. I just don't know about that. A clear hive body?...the ultimate observation hive. :) Again, though, I'm not sure about all that light and the bees. Great things are found from experimentation. ;)

Bee Curious, I threw the original post together with a smattering of bits and pieces of what I've seen, used, thought, etc.,. It was mostly to get folks thinking juices going and for any newbees coming along that might see enough of something to dig deeper for more information. It's not a prize winning essay that's for sure :-D but if any good comes out of it I gotta give the credit to all the great beeks that have listened to my ramblings and redundant questions with LOADS of patience and answers. Beekeepers are a special breed....and for your information non-beekeepers refer to us as a "strange" breed...the adjectives are kinda interchangeable there. :-D Keep your studies going and get your hands in some bees...they are amazing!!

That's some good advice from Joe about youtube...loads of information there...it's always good to get that visual reinforcement about certain things.

BC, if you can, make the gap between the porch and the screen a thin-edged one...this makes it harder for the beetle to hold onto and helps him/her fall into the oil....if you simply leave a gap between porch and the screen I don't think the beetles will be as prone to fall into the oil tray...in my mind they need a thin edge (light some metal flashing) that is difficult for them to navigate to the opposite side.

Ed

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www.beeweather.comAmerican blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world. 320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror". Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA. But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

I had a problem with equipment failure the other day. I went to pull one of the trays out and one of the wooden runners epoxied to the bottom of the tray popped loose. :? Well, I was on my way to work so I slipped the detached runner back under that side of the pan and slid the pan back in. The next day I pulled it back out and had probably 30 dead bees in the oil. :( :-x

What apparently had happened was that the end of the runner at the front of the tray had kicked out to the side. From the rear of the hive it looked like the pan and runner were positioned "ok" but apparently the runner wasn't in position in the front and it allowed that corner of the oil tray to drop down which opened a gap on that corner that allowed bees to enter. I've since corrected the situation The other hive with the same setup hasn't caught the first bee...it hasn't caught many beetles either but LOTS of love bugs and a few other critters.

I don't think I cleaned the metal well enough before epoxying the runner to the tray. I used a dinky wire wheel on a drill to clean it with...this time I used some emory cloth and it brought it down to bare metal *much* better. If there is a gap the bees will find it!!!

One obstacle I've got to overcome is water entry into the trays at the front side. When Isaac's ghost came back south through here we probably got 5-6 inches of rain. Interestingly, one hive's tray was filled to overflowing with water while the other hive's tray had maybe a tablespoon of water in it. It's hard to figure out what they difference is as both hives look almost identical. The rear of the hive is no problem...any water running under the lower surface of the bottom board could be handled by a drip-line formed from something as simple as a strip of masking tape applied along the edge. The front side is what I've gotta think on. :-\

Ed

Ed

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www.beeweather.comAmerican blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world. 320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror". Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA. But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

Bee Curious, ... Beekeepers are a special breed....and for your information non-beekeepers refer to us as a "strange" breed...the adjectives are kinda interchangeable there. :-D Keep your studies going and get your hands in some bees...they are amazing!!

Everyone who knows me knows to expected the unexpected from me--so I fit right in here. :th_thumbsupup: I volunteer one morning a week at the beautiful Chicago Botanic Garden. At a Volunteer Meeting today, I asked to join the volunteers that maintain the Garden's 4 hives + observation hive, but they don't need anyone at the moment (they'll keep me on file.)

That's some good advice from Joe about youtube...loads of information there...it's always good to get that visual reinforcement about certain things.

I say if it's not on YouTube, it doesn't exist!

BC, if you can, make the gap between the porch and the screen a thin-edged one...this makes it harder for the beetle to hold onto and helps him/her fall into the oil....if you simply leave a gap between porch and the screen I don't think the beetles will be as prone to fall into the oil tray...in my mind they need a thin edge (light some metal flashing) that is difficult for them to navigate to the opposite side.Ed, do you mean that the surface at the entrance should be a thin edge (*TE) piece as opposed to a blunt wooden edge, something like this?

SCREEN GAP *TE PORCH (with the ---being a sheet metal 'edge' sticking out and :::: is thicker wood)-------------------- -------::::::::::::: NOT DRAWN TO SCALE

<snip>Ed, do you mean that the surface at the entrance should be a thin edge (*TE) piece as opposed to a blunt wooden edge, something like this?

SCREEN GAP *TE PORCH<snip>

Yes, you understand what I'm saying. I may be wrong, but I think the beetles are more prone to "let go" of a sharp, thin edge than a thicker edge. I've seen them easily navigate a 90-degree angle at the edge of a 1-by.

Yelp... PORCH/Thin-edge/Gap/Screen

I would think you'd have to have a cross support for the end of the screen, otherwise the screen may sag and bees may die. I think a piece of sheet metal with slits in it that spans from porch to screen is the answer...for me. :) That takes out the need for a cross support for the screen and the slits/gaps are rigid.

Ed

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www.beeweather.comAmerican blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world. 320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror". Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA. But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

Ed, I went by Hudsons last thursday and got some cabinet draw runners, not sure but think draw runners would work on the oil pan. They had been marked down got em for .60 a pair, got most of them.

Joe

<chuckle> Well, now we're getting hi-tech!<grin> When you get those installed you gotta take some pictures of them. I see no reason in the world that they shouldn't work. Just remember to keep that gap between the top of the tray and the bottom of the bottom board tight.

Ed

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www.beeweather.comAmerican blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world. 320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror". Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA. But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev

Yes, you understand what I'm saying. ... I've seen them easily navigate a 90-degree angle at the edge of a 1-by.

I would think you'd have to have a cross support for the end of the screen, otherwise the screen may sag

That's what I though you meant, that beetles can navigate the edge of a piece of lumber, but not what is essentially a slit in a thin surface. I can think of a couple of ways to support the edge of the screen, one being: bending the edge of the screen over a very thin piece of rod or wire that extends through the bottom board assembly's side wall and is bent over or stapled in place there on the outside. I'm sure glad I have all winter to design and build this. As I read posts here, I keep tweaking the idea in my head.

Don't underestimate the beetles. They *can* navigate a thin edge. Shoot, I think they could navigate the edge of a razor at times! It's just that the thinner edge will create a more favorable condition for them to let go and drop to the surface (oil) below.

By the spring you will have built a better mouse trap!! ;) Keep tinkering!!

Ed

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www.beeweather.comAmerican blood spilled to protect the freedom and peace of people all over the world. 320,000 USA casualties in WWI, 1,076,000 USA casualties in WWII, 128,000 USA casualties in the Korean War, 211,000 casualties in the Vietnam "conflict", 57,000 USA casualties in "War on Terror". Benghazi, Libya, 13 USA casualties. These figures don't include 70,000 MIA. But, the leaders of one political party of the United States of America continue to make the statement..."What difference does it make?".

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism."..."The press is our chief ideological weapon." - Nikita Khrushchev