Philippine Army Armored Vehicle Weapon Mounts and Introduction of RWS

In our last blog entry, MaxDefense discussed the impending delivery of 142 M113A2 for the Philippine Army, divided into different variants according to what the PA specified. These includes 4 units with 25mm auto cannons mounted on remote weapons stations (RWS), 6 units with a 12.7mm machine gun mounted on remote weapons station, and 14 units with upgraded 76mm turrets, and the rest probably with only a pintle mount for a 12.7mm machine gun. In this blog, MaxDefense discusses the armored vehicle weapon mounts currently used by the Philippine Army, the importance of the remote weapons station (RWS) mount, and the Scorpion CRVT's 76mm gun turret.

A Philippine Army M113A1 APC, still marked as an asset of the Light Armor Division (LAD).

Current Philippine Army APC & IFV Weapon Mounts :The Philippine Army uses different weapons mount on its armored vehicles. Wheeled armored vehicle models like the Cadillac Gage V-150 have one-man turrets mounting 12.7mm and 7.62mm machine guns. Simba armored vehicles have a one-man turret mounting a 12.7mm machine gun, and a few Simba on IFV role have a one-man turret mounting a 25mm M242 Bushmaster auto cannon. Some of these armored vehicles are also armed with a 40mm automatic grenade launcher on top of the turret, which exposes the operator when firing.

A Philippine Army V-150 Commando armored vehicle with a 1-man turret for 12.7mm and 7.62mm machine guns. Most wheeled armored vehicles with the Philippine Army and the entire Armed Forces have this configuration.

Some Simba armored vehicles of the Philippine Army are equipped with a pintle-mounted 40mm automatic grenade launcher installed above the turret opening. This exposes the gunner's upper body from external threats.Photo taken from Mindanews website.

Some Simbas are armed with a 1-man turret mounting a 25mm M242 Bushmaster auto cannon.Photo taken from the former Light Armor Division website.

Tracked armored vehicles, specifically the M113A1 and ACV-300, are armed with pintle-mounted 12.7mm Browning M2 machine guns, with many M113A1 without any cupola armor protection which exposes the gunner. All ACV-300 and several of the M113A1 have cupola shields with frontal gun shields for added protection, but is still not enough to protect the gunner from sniper fire or threat from all sides. A few modified M113s mounted the turrets from disabled V-150 armored vehicles, and a handful were already converted to take the L23A1 76mm gun turret from non-working Scorpion CRVTs. Finally, the FMC AIFV (sometimes called the YPR-765) delivered in the late 1970s are equipped with a 1-man turret mounting a 25mm Oerlikon KBA auto cannon and co-axial machine guns, although there are some AIFV without the turrets, and are armed and protected in a similar way as the ACV-300.

The incoming M113A2's remote weapons station would be the first time such system will be available to the Philippine Army, and the introduction of such technology is considered a leap-forward in its capability.Remote Weapons System (RWS):The Philippine Army decided to use the RWS system because of the advantages it offer to the gunner as compared to other weapon mount types like turrets and shielded pintle mounts. Previous experiences in armored vehicle operations and advancement in technology helped the PA decide on the choice.

The Elbit Systems RWS-H which can carry a 25mm auto cannon.Photo taken from Elbit Systems RWS-H product data sheet.

The RWS will be controlled by gunner sitting inside the armored vehicle's compartment section, and will be using advanced sights capable of night operation, thermal imaging system to track targets and scan its peripherals, and laser range finders. This protects the gun operator from exposure to enemy fire and dangerous combat environments like explosion shrapnel and adverse weather conditions. Due to its advanced sighting capability, the gunner also has capability to see at night, and detect heat signatures of enemy targets including those hidden in jungles or urban areas. All these are far improvements from other weapon mounts, even those with improved armor protection which exposes the gun operator from sniper fire. The RWS are computer controlled and enhances its target acquisition capability and be able to fire while moving. This also improves the vehicle's mobility as it allows the driver to see the vehicle's path at night.

The RWS operator will be well protected inside the armored vehicle instead of being exposed in the open through the cupola. Not only does the system improve safety for the operator, but also increase the weapons capability through technological improvements.Photo taken from Mechanized Infantry Division website.

Another advantage over the pintle-mounted and turret weapon mounts is space usage inside the vehicle. Manned mounts require a platform underneath the cupola which the turret operator will be positioned, which takes significant space inside the vehicle. Taking this out will increase the usable space for storage of equipment and ammunition, or seating space improvements.With the introduction of remote weapons systems, then why did the Philippine Army still use the turrets of non-working Scorpion CRVT? Use of Scorpion CRVT turret for 76mm L23A1 gun:

One of the few remaining Scorpion CRVT with the Philippine Army.Photo taken from Timawa.net c/o PAFunixGeek.

One reason on using the old Scorpion CRVT's 76mm gun and turret is because of practicality. There were previous plans to refurbish the ageing Scorpion fleet, which includes mechanical and electrical works and replacing the old and fuel-hungry Jaguar J60 4.2L petrol engine with a comparable diesel engine. The program was declared a failure after accusation of corruption and budget embezzlement came out, forcing the army to cancel the project. With the assets put to waste, the PA high command reviewed the program and decided to just scrap the non-working vehicles, with the usable parts removed as spares for working vehicles, and the turrets removed and installed on the M113 armored personnel carriers. As for the remaining Scorpion fleet, they will be retained for as long as the PA can maintain them, while a replacement is being studied for future acquisition. This reason is based on practicality on behalf of the army.Aside from practicality, the 76mm gun is too large for an RWS to mount and carry, and can only be mounted using a manned turret. Most RWS systems offered in the market can carry only up to 30mm auto cannons. The Zamboanga City Siege was an unfortunate event that gave the AFP experience in urban warfare, and they saw the importance of low-pressure guns similar to the L23A1 76mm gun as a fire support weapon. As discussed in previous MaxDefense blogs, the shifting of Scorpion turrets to M113 bodies is not new to the PA, and was done before locally. Conversions were made on a few M113s in the late 90s, with one of the unit destroyed by the MILF during the All-Out War of President Estrada in 2000.

The PA made an in-house conversion of mating the Scorpion turret with the M113. This time, Elbit Systems will perform the modification including the modernization of the turret and the armored vehicle.Photo taken from Timawa.net.

Elbit Systems was awarded to do the modernization of the turrets, which includes the repair of the 76mm gun and installation of new night-capable sights, thermal imaging system and laser range finders similar to the RWS for the other M113A2. Elbit Systems will also integrate the modernized turret to modern computer systems and installation to the M113A2 body.

Future Upgrades on Other PA Armored Assets:With the introduction of remote weapon stations, it is expected that this would be in some way a trial batch and may become the basis of future weapon mount replacement for other armored vehicles in the Philippine Army arsenal, especially the M113 series. The Philippine Army has been using the M113 since the late 1960s, and modernization of the entire line is needed to keep it relevant with the times. MaxDefense sources confirmed plans of modernizing the entire M113 line, which may include mechanical & electrical works, and upgrading of the armor and weapons system as soon as more funding is provided by the national government.

A Philippine Army M113 serving as part of the PHILCAGV force in Vietnam. Most PA M113 weapons mount are shielded open cupola mounts similar to the configuration above.Photo taken from Jerzy Krzeminski's photo collection.

In an army whose funding is not as large as its foreign counterparts, such projects are important to make sure that the Philippine Army continues to improve on its capabilities and take in new technology on a cheap but effective route. MaxDefense will provide more updates regarding this specific project, as well as other related projects, as more information becomes available.

Thanks for the clarification. A MID officer just clarified me as well. The commander's position is outside the turret, and the AIFV's turret is a positioned a little on the right side of the vehicle, not on the center.

If you can't back-up, at least tell where you got it. I was open in saying that my sources are from DND insiders. I do not claim 100% correct information, as my experience in this has shown. I am not in a pissing contest with you on who has better information or who is correct, so don't start one. MaxDefense is open to information as long as they are reliable.

Because it's expensive. The ACV-300/ACV-15 has a foothold within the Philippine Army, so in case they decide to get new units, it's not impossible to get additional orders from FNSS. Besides, the army is not getting priority so we don't expect too many new items for them as compared to the navy and air force.

Anonymous, the PA's upgrade on anti-tank weapons starts with the acquisition of the RPG-7(USA). Mobile gun systems or tank destroyers like the Centauro are actually are in the options should the PA forego having tanks. If only the Italian Package pushed through, we may probably see Centauros in PA service by this year.

The Trident is still in the development stage, and in its current guise it can only mount a heavy machine gun, not a 25mm auto cannon. With the PN's NRDC back, we expect more locally produced systems for the navy in the coming years. There are several local companies out there that coordinates with the navy in terms of SRPD projects, and may have already started preparation of introducing something for the navy.

I think we are buying a endless non-strategical defense against the main enemy in the future. While the other countries is buying a first priority strategical defense of additional fighter planes, 3d radars, patrol boats. missiles asm, sam.

These radars are long range air surveillance radars, used for monitoring aircraft. The coast watch center awarded to Raytheon is a central system which will receive data coming from several ground-based coast watch stations and ship-based coast watch radars, which will be monitoring ships and boats, as well as low flying aircraft. The coast watch systems are not yet awarded although IAI-Elta is among the winning bidders.

From the looks of it, with acquisition of IAI-ELTA radar its logical that PH will go for the Barack or Spyder missile system for its shore-base missile system requirement which I believe is a good considering that Israeli made equipment are cheaper than the US and EU has to offer plus the disparity in quality is not that much.

pansin mo frustration ng ibang mga pinoy tungkol sa modernization ng afp,talagang napabayaan ng mga namuno sa pinas, pero sana bigyan natin ng suporta ang kasalukuyang administrasyon, its the best that we can do for now, if the worse come, we have sacred duty as a filipino to defend our country,as JFK SAID ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country;

our country has the best and largest armored infantry in south east asia. we may not be as modern as the enemy but it is not always the case that modern technology wins wars. sometimes, it's by sheer numbers. if a foreign aggressor would attempt to land in our beaches, we would simply overwhelm them with thousands upon thousands of vietnam-era tanks and armored vehicles. how many simbas do we have? around a thousand? even these "lowly" armored cars will wreck havoc when used to attack the enemy simultaneously. there's even this news that's been circulating on the net that our government is acquiring truckloads and truckloads of rpg's which it is even willing to distribute to the citizens in case of an invasion. now, even the most ruthless enemy would find it hard to reach any important philippine city when our citizens are going to be armed by the government to the teeth. we will destroy them by means of people power.

Not really the best and largest. In fact, we have one of the smallest armored infantry in SEA, even tiny Singapore beats the Philippines in terms of quantity (men and armored assets), equipment quality (they can even produce their own armored vehicles like the Bionix and Terrex, and they have Leopard 2 MBTs), and probably doctrinal quality as well (they have been training with the Australians and Germans on armor usage for years).

Not the best and largest. Most technologically advanced armored formation is Singapore. They have so many of them too. Indonesia by far has the most armor, more than anybody else. Next Malaysia with a very formidable force themselves. Thailand comes close after that. Then comes Vietnam and Myanmar. Philippines' armor force even with the M113s coming in would be comparable to Cambodia and just above Laos. A very small low tech force.

Jamali, size-wise, I think we hand it down to Thailand. They have the largest armored force in ASEAN, considering that their country is a large land mass. Vietnam also have a large armoured force but are mostly obsolete. Indonesia previously have a small armoured force but now they are playing catch-up with the rest of the region. Being an archipelago, the Philippine Army is not surprisingly one of the smallest armoured force. But I expect significant changes to happen quality-wise in the next few years, although the size may remain as among the smallest in the region.

If you read the blog carefully and the links inside, you may have noticed that the Philippine Army did not form an "armored division", but a Mechanized Infantry Division. There's a big difference between the two formations.

its a step in the right direction. but if insurgents get a hold of rpg's themselves then those APC's will be useless. buti nalang walang mga rpg mga biff/npa. If the PA wants to be more effective they should fight at night and at a distance. Laser/GPS/Infrared targeting and night vision coupled with smart bombs, guided missiles and helicopter gunships (our aw109 is not a gunship but a light chopper attached with rocket racks and not the aw109uh) should be the next step. This would make it easier for our soldiers and be devastating to the insurgents (walang tulugan).

I change my view i go for kfir block 60 no more fa-50.It may have a 4th gen airframe but its rare airframe the cause of crash.Its has 5th gen avionics and 5th gen AESA radar.As for fa-50 it all angle 4.5 gen plane

Kfir is not Brand New, It is Secondhand when purchased.. I rather buy a refurbished F-16 from the United States, Proven in Air to Air Combat and the F-16 can still be upgraded with an AESA radar in the future... If Israel could do it with the Kfir, US would be much more capable of doing it with its F-16's,,,

The Kifr and FA-50 are not in the same league, as the FA-50 can do advanced jet training for pilots bound for MRFs. The FA-50 is still very important in the acquisition and the Kfirs, if ever considered, will be an interim MRF to assist the FA-50s.

Yeah, I heard that in the news after BRP Gregorio Del Pilar was in stalemate at Scarborough shoal, the President ordered the DND to acquire F-16's from US EDA, but Secretary Gazmin refused it since it has been about a decade long when we last operated the F-5 Freedom..

And since its operational cost of F-16's is high even if it is a single engine Fighter, we came up to purchase a LIFT that is until now is in negotiations... Hope there is a decision this year..

Yeah the LIFT acquisition is taking too long hopefully the DND/PAF has a contingency plan in case the FA-50 does not materialize. with delays of the signing of contract for the FA-50 the delivery date will keep pushing back specially now that Iraq has purchase 24 FA-50 which means they will be first in the production line for export.

@Jendrich, Yeah, It's so damn frustrating that the LIFT acquisition is taking too long... I heard in the last news that Sec. Gazmin told that the final decision is now in the Presidents office, if we would go along with the demand of the KAI, 52 % DP with Spare parts delivery up to 6 months lead time...

Yeah, the government should have a contingency plan in case that the FA-50 would be cancelled, possible candidates are the M-346 and Yak-130, but both are trans sonic and subsonic,. So the FA-50 would still be the superior LIFT since it is supersonic and avionics that could catch up with 4th Gen fighters.. Hope the FA-50 would push through...

Countries that are buying the Kfir block 60 are at one point using and are familiar with the Mirage series of fighter plane. The design is base on this platform courtesy of the Mossad . It is not a fly by wire technology but the sensor and onboard weapon system were upgraded to meet the current standard of 4.5 generation aircraft . The current powerhouse of this aircraft is stil base on the pre F15/F16 era which means it is not as fuel efficient as the FA 50. Although with the guaranteed warrantee the IAI is offering it is still worth considering depending on the immediate necessity of a country air defense. There are also other interim MRF in the Israel excess defense items like the F16A Netz which is a better choice . Only if they could offer the same type of package they are offering with the Kfir block 60. The Fa 50 would serve the PAF better because of its primary role as a trainer and a secondary role as a light attack aircraft . Which means that the PAF would still be needing a MRF as soon as everything are in place to start the ball rolling.

With these additional AIFV of the M113A2 variant the PA should put an emphasis on their SRDP to improve further the armor protection of these assets . I'm quiet sure that the former PALAD had a lot experience in the battlefield when it comes to anti armor damage and casualties. I have seen LAV 300 and Simbas with RPG cage in photos but there are other ways like additional platings or reactive armor that could be use as well . I've read stories about why soldiers would ride topside because of its thin belly armor platings that are susceptible to land mines. Off topic I was reading a PDF FB blog on how the PN introduce to young Filipino students from Don Bosco Makati on several navy assets and technologies that could open venues and entice these young techno geeks . Now going back to the PA there are other venues to gather ideas on how to improve and maximize the M113A2 in the art of armor warfare . A good example is how Israel was able to use captured enemy armors and modify them from the engine to target optics and weapon system as an add on to their armor assets. I have great confidence in the Filipino ingenuity way of thinking . There are more of these AIFV where they came from that should not impede from exploring other options .

Sir max! How about getting in touch wd you personally?we can set up the sked maybe in dec and jst sort of a get together wd fellow bloggers!wd that our questions on any topic defense wise can be answered by u instantly!i blvd there r many felow maxdfns bloggers who may want to met u persnaly! And wd this invite wl jsj find a decent plce where we cn spnd dnner!of course sir the tab wl be mine.sgot k dner ntn sir and the venue.jst gve us earlier ur preferd date.thank u.ramil of the national grid corp.,of the phils.!

While we are waiting for the decision on the downpayment for the LIFT, the DND should expedite other items such as the ADR and the shore based missile defense. Any intruder will think twice if they know we can detect and and hit them.

Max that's the way the rich boys do, but for us not so deep-pocketed and facing an aggressive expansive adversary, we do what's needed to be done. The Kfir 2 seater can surely be a trainer for S-211 graduates but must be with experienced pilot trainors, lots of simulator time, very gradual flight envelope expansion, etc. LIFT's are for rich soft boys.

Nope. The performance between training aircraft types are designed to be gradual as possible to prevent 'shocking' student pilots. There is too much of a performance gap between the S211 and OCT aircraft. Simulators can provide some of the training in the Advance or LIFT phase but still nothing is better than the real thing. The LIFT can actually save money since it has the performance envelope to handle the advance phase and some of the OCT phase...saving some of the OCT's precious flying hours.

There's no such thing as a rich boy-poor boy in terms of training pilots to fly modern fighters. As simply explained by Pol above, the flight characteristic and envelop of the Kfir and other fighters are far different from the S.211. It is more costly for the PAF to lose pilots and a fighter aircraft due to training issues than spend for LIFT that can safely bridge the gap, and it is also more costly to use fighters to provide the necessary flight hours to train and maintain their skills than using a LIFT.

The F-5 was a Light Combat Aircraft with similar performance to an advance trainer. In fact, the current USAF advance trainer aircraft is the T-38 Talon, a derivative of the F-5. So student pilots can transition to it from a basic jet trainer like the S211. The FA-50 is actually superior to the F-5 in the LCA role. The South Koreans are actually employing the FA-50 as a replacements for their F-5Es.

Colombia, Sri Lanka and Ecuador have no LIFT's of their own when they went to the Kfir. Except maybe a lone MiG-21 family FT-7 trainer of Sri Lanka. Some of their trainers are even less capable than our S-211's. Our Pilipino pilots are not less capable than their pilots.

This shows that the 2 seater Kfir can effectively transition from S-211 to the F-21 Kfir Block60 with good trainors, simulators and flight time on 2 seaters. Even training time on CAP missions.

Let's start getting the F-21 Kfir Block60 instead of the LIFT FA50, with the savings going to Gabriel air launched ASM's, upgrade of other S-211's, and a couple of Israeli AWACS.

Several factors need to be considered if we go the "BJT (S.211) to OCT (TC-10 Kfir)" route:

1. The PAF might be stuck with the Kfir as its main MRF for the foreseeable future. Kfirs cannot provide AJT/ lead-in training for gen 4/4.5 MRFs. If the PAF acquires modern MRFs later on, it will still need to acquire AJT/LIFTs.2. LIFT (like the M-346 and FA-50) aircraft can be programmed to emulate the flight characteristics/behavior of gen 4/4.5/5 MRFs giving the PAF flexibility in choosing its future MRF.3. LIFT can perform some of the training modules normally assigned to OCTs thereby preserving expensive OCT flying hours. 4. There are only 220 (more or less) Kfir airframes ever built. All "new" Kfirs are refurbished/re-built from this limited stock. With several air forces already invested into the Kfir, the PAF might end up competing with them for replacements/parts/additional units etc.5. Getting LIFT aircraft gives trainee pilots the added safety margin of a proper training pipeline.

IMHO, the FA-50 was chosen by the PAF because they may already have a future MRF in mind.

Hi Max this is an interesting thread that should have its own page. Ever since the Kfir 2000 was offered a long time ago, I think during the time of FVR at still $10 million per copy, I have always been partial to it given the money for defense that we have. More so now with our aggressive expansive neighbor, and comebacking US bases. We need a very credible defense of our own to resist these.

1. The PAF is OK with the Kfir Block 60 (maybe as C-14) as its main MRF for the next 15 years given the defined sensor/weapons suite. The Kfirs can provide LIFT for gen 4/4.5 MRFs as shown by ATAC of Nevada. The PAF can convert its S-211's and F-5's for AJT/LIFTs from savings in acquiring Kfir Block 60 fighters instead of the FA-50 LIFT. You end up with capable fighter-bombers and LIFTs with the same amount of money and at a faster rate.

2. We do not need LIFT (like the M-346 and FA-50) aircraft that can be programmed to emulate the flight characteristics/behavior of gen 4/4.5/5 MRFs as proven by many other Air Forces. Even the USAF uses the T-38 before their 2 seat F-16's and F-15's. We are not planning for F-22's are we?

3. LIFT training modules done on 2 seat Kfirs will be less expensive than on FA-50 given the huge acquisition price difference, $20 millio versus $38 million per aircraft.

1. S.211s are no longer being produced and refurbishment is only theoretical at this point. PAF F-5s are the earlier version (A & Bs) and may be BER. ATAC uses Kfirs not as LIFT, but as OPFOR aircraft. 2. Advantage of LIFT being able to emulate intended MRF is to reduce OCT flight hours since some OCT modules can be handled by LIFT, which neither the T-38 and the Kfir can do. The TA-50 is also the leading contender to replace the T-38 in USAF training squadrons.3. Kfir acquisition cost of $20M is fly-away cost. First time user always entails additional cost (training, ILS package etc). Kfir Block 60 cost is closer to $27M (Argentina deal).4. There are two other countries interested in the Block 60. Argentina is reportedly interested in 18 units. J-79 parts are just part of the logistic equation.5. Nope. The Indian Air Force suffered high attrition rates attributed by their own studies to the lack of AJT/LIFT to bridge the gap between BJT to OCT.

The S211 is now known as M311 later M-345 and on the market. The refurbisher of the Kfir has more than the capability to refurb the S-211. BER is a concept for rich countries with no immediate threat. That's your opinion, the replacement of the T-38 in USAF is still an open competition with Boeing planning to present a new build aircraft with Saab. Assuming Kfir Block 60 cost is closer to $27M, you have $11M savings per aircraft, or $132M, that can be used for Gabriel III ASM, Westwind MPA, Derby BVR, S211 upgrade etc. The Indian Air Force is not a Kfir user and most attritions are MiG's.

1. The M311 (M345) is not the S.211. It is more that just a simple update of the older S.211 as it involves major structural and equipment re designs. BER is a concept used even by the PAF and PMC to refer to several equipment in storage that cannot be refurbished cost effectively. 2. All contenders for the T-38 are LIFT. Your original contention is that the USAF has no need for such aircraft.3. Kfir is cheaper but still cannot function as AJT/LIFT.4. Indian AF studies attributed attrition to lack of AJT regardless of aircraft type.

The F-5A/B was from another generation, not fly-by-wire, not computerized, not as advanced as today's fighter aircraft. Initial PAF pilots were actually experienced F-86 pilots, so the background was already there. The S.211 and even the T-33 were enough for succeeding batches of pilots as a stepping stone for pilots bound for training with the F-5B.

Today's fighters are too advanced that S.211's simply cannot provide the needed training without stepping to an advanced jet trainer. Colombia and Ecuador both have continuous experience in flying fighter jets, the Philippines stopped in 2005 and all its experienced F-5 pilots are either retired, became desk officers, or are flying airliners. Colombia and Ecuador also uses the T-37 Tweet/A-37 Dragonfly and EMB-314 Super Tucano which acts as advanced trainers and are more capable than the S.211.

Sri Lanka operates a less-capable and older version of the Kfir than what the Israelis offered to the PAF. They also have the K-8 advanced jet trainer as well as the low-tech F-7 Airguard fighters to bridge the gap.

If the PAF foregoes the advanced jet trainer procurement, it can still jump to an MRF like the Kfir Blk.60 using the following options:1. Sending PAF pilots abroad to train with advanced jet training courses with other air forces (which is actually an expensive route except if the Americans will provide them for free as part of their military assistance to the Philippines);2. Flight proficiency and airtime required will be all done using the MRF (which will be expensive as the MRF operating cost is higher than that of an advanced jet trainer, and it decreases the lifespan of the MRF due to continuous usage).

Rene, the S-211 has already reached the end of the line. It will cost a lot to upgrade the S-211 to the M-345 series and it would be more cost effective to purchase a new aircraft to replace them.

We can't follow what the USAF does. The USAF has the money and complete resources to make a T-38 pilot jump straight to an F-15D or F-16D, the PAF doesn't have that. The PAF lacks the resources to train pilots for a longer period using a 2-seater MRF, doesn't have the number of aircraft to allow this, and doesn't have the continuity and assurance of getting new fighter planes once those in service reaches the end of their designed lifespan. The LIFT addresses all that.

I believe that the J-79 engine is already out of production, if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks MaxThe M311 now M345 soon M345HET is an update of the S.211 with structural strengthening and avionics compatability to M-346. Like the F-5 from the T-38, not the other way around.BER by PAF and PMC were when no threat was apparent, resulting to the loss of the F-5's. You sharpen even your rustry sword if you don't have a gun and akyat bahay is rampant.USAF has no need for such LIFT aircraft up to now, they go T-38 to 2seat F-16, F-15. Seems we have money to burn to beat the USAF to LIFTs.Kfir is cheaper; and functioned as AJT/LIFT for all Kfir operators Ecuador, Sri Lanka and Colombia.Indian AF has no Kfirs so no relation, and old MiG's are the culprit.

S.211 specs is similar, even better, than T-37 Tweet .Sri Lanka acquired the Kfir way before their K-8 Karakorum.PAF can go to Kfir Block60 via the S-211 then 2 seat Kfir TC.Possible S-211 upgrade will not go to M311 level, just make the grounded aircraft flyable and maybe a glass cockpit nearer the Kfir config. Using the $132M savings, and that the Kfir refurbisher can do.There are lots of J-79 engines stored out there that the Israelis can refurbish with expertise, which they will do for the Kfirs.

Again, by the numbers:1. S.211 is a different aircraft from M311. How many S.211s were upgraded to M311? None. As I said, only theoretical at this point unless you provide specific example.2.BER applicable even with threat present. As stated by PAF Vice Commander Maj.Gen. Dimatatac, out of 265 air assets, 95 are BER. And this was just last September.3.If USAF has no need for LIFT, then whats the T-X program for? LIFT as stated by Mr.Max saves training funds which makes it more imperative for PAF to acquire.4.The project is not MRF acquisition but SAA/LIFT as you said, the Kfir is an MRF not a LIFT. I believe our PAF/DND professionals know what they need.5.Superiority of Kfir over any LIFT was never disputed but again, its not a LIFT.6.Indian AF officials clearly state lack of AJT is to blame for high attrition rate not the Migs as the vast majority of accidents were caused by 'pilot error'.8. Any sources on the number of J79s in storage?

My opinion f-16 is out of choices.even israeli f-16.spare parts all made by US the cost is beyond our savings. But kfir is entitely israeli made airframe landing gears avionics weapons radar other sensors and engine so its cheaper btw this two refurbish f-16 and kfir.

Hi Max the back up plan you mentioned above seems to me, much better than the plan right now to get only the FA50 lift. Not only it solve the training problem but also provide a practice fighter jet right after M346 training as well as a stop gap deterrent while preparing to buy new fighter jets.

Hi Max, my comment above is intended for the immediate need of the country. Should South Korea not keen on meeting our needs halfway for a trainer during those days of negotiation, then we should go to other suppliers. And about the Kfirs, it is the right combination for the M346 that doesn't have the light combat capability as a stop gap while the government is saving for new fighter jets. It has a two seat variant and I believe the Israeli's is willing to send trainers too. And reading the different comments here in your blog it seems Israel could deliver the Kfirs in a short period of time. The negotiation for the FA50 just concluded recently and no signed document yet. By the time our pilots are finished with their training with the FA50, then where is the MRF for them to fly and depend the country? Other pilots need to train too on the FA50. And it would take 3 to 4 years for a new fighter jets before delivery and I don't think they already started rolling the acquisition process for those planes. The most logical way in my opinion is to provide a stop gap measure. China is now in our backyard. While I adhere that we should have new fighters, the likes of fly by wire jets, like the Grippen, F16 and let us say F35. But when do we need those planes? We also keep on talking about cost effective, per flight, aircraft lifespan and so on, yeah we should think about those things too. However, when are we going to provide our country the defence it badly needed? Come election day and who knows it is goodbye for the mrf. Just a thought. Gerry.

Hi Max, I just read today in the ABS CBN news that our ship carrying building materials has been turned away by the Chinese ships in our own backyard. Come to think about my comment above. When do we need fighter jets? It is funny, we are still discussing here in your site what fighter jets we need, whether new or old, with the current situation. Gerry

But sir Max if the FA-50 for some reasons will push through due to some issues that must be settle in negotiation I think w=the government should push through the 2nd contender in LIFT project the M-346 and get a couple of KFIR block 60 or ISRAEL F-16 that is being offered to us. Like wise we can make a deal to package the training (Transition) to this Jet fighter....So there are many ways that the government somehow can expedite or accelerate the acquisition and transition for our pilots and asset's acquisition.

There's a reason why the M346 is a back up plan and the FA 50 is the primary choice for the LIFT program. For a more descriptive comparison you can check RHK111's military and arms page. The FA 50 although a new design has a lot to offer compared to the M346. If it's not for the FA 50 blues it should have given the PAF the early start for the much needed experience and transitional phase to an MRF program. I'd give you a scenario if we ever received the 12 FA50 and PAF boys gets their training done it could transition into a light attack platform . Then basing on the future budget then they can start with their MRF program . This is where the Israel excess defense article comes in , it can guarantee the PAF entry into the MRF . There are 2 choices Kfir block 60 or the F16A Netz . The F16 being an American production and modified by IAI defense industry not to mention a fly by wire aircraft . Kfir block 60 a mirage derivative and 3rd generation aircraft meaning hydraulics and mechanical but upgraded sensors and weapon system to 4.5 generation standard. If we're going to start with a lift program base on a fly by wire technology then why should these flyboys be given a 3rd generation aircraft . I believe if they can achieve an offer which would be equivalent to the Kfir block 60 then the F16A Netz would be an ideal aircraft for the PAF as a primary role for interceptor and fighter duty . With the FA50 as a light attack aircraft and secondary interceptor role . Having these array of aircraft at their disposal it could provide the PAF the much needed air support. The number of aircraft mentioned by a defense analyst to counter any external threat is 48 battle ready aircrafts .

Oplan X, it's not necessarily because of design issues that hampers the project but more of a contract issue. Performance has nothing to do if the FA-50 project is cancelled because of DP and parts issue. The M346 was actually the 2nd choice when the PAF negotiated for thee SAA/LIFT project, so there's no surprise if Alenia will be back in the scene.

after PAF have train fighter pilots with the FA-50 or M346, IMHO depending on the budget the next MRF will either the Gripen NG, EDA F-16 or F-18 from the US. but PAF might consider acquiring a few KFIR as interim MRF while waiting for the newer MRF. but everything can still change beasuse there's a lot of factors that will still come to play like will the next administration continue what Aquino Admin. started. what will the US be providing the AFP/DND after the signing of PH-US IRP agreement.

Oplan X, you really read RHK111's without putting a grain of salt in it? Well, if plane performance are simple measured by just wing area, then why doesn't the major powers just out-design each other on wing area.Anyway, it's not as simple as you said.Getting in topic.KFIR looks only good because of the trouble with the contract issue (as stated nicely by Max). KFIR is a dead end path from a training/doctrine perspective. It is only as good as "police visibility" we have every June near school. It's a stop gap and a very, very last resort back up as MRF. The reason why it needs that good radar because KFIR will blimp much sooner on the enemy radar and the radar just gives it a chance that it MAY blimp the other side a little later.

So as not to get the fighter program into a dead end with KFIR, that's why the back is 4-6TA 50 and about 12-18KFIRs. and the KFIRs will not in used as fighter/MRF as its primary role but as a situation awareness due to its radar and (believe me) HIGH visibility to the opposing radar. More of like, a recon plane/patrol plane with a big banner saying "I AM HERE. CAN YOU SEE ME?"

if dnd does agree to purchase it, it will be exciting to see the fine prints and I will suspect, the IAI will put in small prints that the radar cannot be remove from the plane and transplant to the another better plane. Else, the plane will be as good as an expensive junk. $28M reported price for a plane cannot even be confirmed if flyaway or fully loaded with radar, sensor and weapons integration. Even if so, its still a little steep without some sweetener. The sweetener would be the package of other EDA materials. On its own, its not worth the deal.

The FA50 is a delicate political/business contract. That's why the government cannot just turn it down and play hardball. In the same breathe, the government cannot swallow it all hook, bait and sinker. There'll be ripples if that happens. This must be taken carefully to avoid repercussions. That's also why a TA50 option is there as a safety net. In my opinion, the ball is not in the President's hand but on the KAI's hand. They got the simplest and easiest solution which is not hampered by business logic, political or legal issues. While the President's hand is tied with silk trappings of the law. He can shrug the silk off but would he? So, its actually KAI playing hardball and calling the cards. There are some hard lines in KAI that needs careful understanding reading between the lines. Bluff or not, we have to play it. Yeah, there are some back up talks ongoing. It is the military. Plan A, B, C, D... to X. Some say there are planes coming from the west. I heard that the ones coming from the east and south is much more possible. of course, let the chinks spies do their jobs, why would I spell it out.

I dont like RHK, he always compares an apple to an orange... Anyway, The Government is still busy with the Pork Scandal, corruption really blocks our modernization programs... For me, The FA-50 is really the best thing we could have for now and we badly need it in order for our Pilots to be trained for a real MRF, it is a LIFT but if you see the Specs, it is more like a Light Fighter or close to an MRF.... Time is running out, PNOY has only 2 years left.. What if the next President would be like the Past Presidents like FVR, ERAP, GMA, who disregard the AFP modernization program.. Hope before his term ends, most of the Projects would push through...

Even the crop duster can do the role of the KFIR and OV-10. Just complement it with the MPA or the Search and Rescue sea plane (with AESA, of course! IF you don't know what that means in terms of role, don't ask). IF all we need are platforms to carry weapons, recon, visibility and sovereignty patrol). believe me, it wont make a difference if it's KFIR or AT6 against China. AT6 even got the advantage of endurance. Any formal or traditional symmetric use of conventional weapons will not make a difference if it comes to a shooting war. That's the reason why we are going for a minimum deterrent (not to win) and ... tada! an assymetric non-traditional use of... ehem... resources. Well, let the chinks spies think about that. Can't make it easy for them. There's a logic in this mess. We will not win if we are going to outfight the Chinks and play their game, we got to play our own game. There's a saying in Pilipino nung tatlo pa kamag anak namin heneral at one time (now retired), "Puro kayo utak pulbura. Kaya nga may nagiging heneral at iba habang buhay nalang foot soldier"

So, it's in the news already. As KAI stated, we will be pushing for the T50. KAI hardline stance, since it thinks it can play hardball with the PH because of our pressing needs, have resulted in a downgraded option (a diplomatic turn down or calling the bluff without hurting SK sensitivities --- since we want to maintain goodwill with them due to our other military needs like naval ships, missiles, trainings, etc...) Its like PH saying, we are not negotiating as if its a hostage but as a sensible business and friendly partner. Guess what's coming next for the interim MRF. We got 3 candidate direction where it's coming from.

^ T-50?? I think you misunderstood same as the other people in FB... KAI designated TA-50 for Indonesia, the TA-50i which is the trainer version, the T-50IQ which is the FA-50 version sold to Iraq..for the Philippines it will be designated as the T-50PH (Ph for Philippines) and it will still be the version of the FA-50...

That source is a news info. As good as the reporter knowledge. Better stick to KAI official website. Since we won't see the difference on outward appearance between the variant like strengthened wings, avionics or electronics. Heck, even if its ALL 2 seaters it can still pass as FA50 PH style named T50PH. Heck, even if it won't have BVR capabilities on delivery or radar range in excess of 100-120km. We could still say its just an export name for FA50. The pudding is to compare it to specs of SK ordered FA50. If it doesn't even come close. It is TA50. It's just a name. I'm hoping we get a watered down version to save for a more capable MRF

Here's the actual release from the horse mouth so to speak. http://www.koreaaero.com/english/pr_center/m_cpr_view.asp?pg=1&gubun=v&seq=25666&bbs=10KAI defined its variant, defined what variant it sold to Iraq and designated it as T50I. There's nothing there about other name for FA 50 as export variants. Don't rely too much on reporters. They do make mistakes. Its good if we get fa50, but for me, its better if we get TA50. Save the difference on better planes that matters. A better MRF with no intended performance limitation (cannot exceed kf16)

Oh, I just check the holy grail of like-minded people at timawa. They also got it wrong. Of course, for like-minded people, I am the one who's wrong. No big deal though, it makes no difference what name it carries and what means. Just pointing out the official line from KAI itself.

In the end, its still the pilot making optimal use of his resources along with the correct doctrine and support systems. My wish is, if we do get an MRF, we should get a stealthy one. In this age, if you are found first, you are at a huge disadvantage.

The Iraqi and Philippine models are FA-50-based. The Indonesian model is said to be TA-50-based. So the name doesn't matter because KAI already made it clear in the beginning that these are just naming issues that does not change the performance or capability of the aircraft ordered.

Need to look at more in-depth research how these proposed fighter jets will fare against the counterparts (su-35, j-15,j-16, etc) to have a minimum credible deterrence. Which I believe DND/PAF has evaluated, give them some credit and trust.

We can support them by electing the right leaders to ensure the continuous modernization of the AFP.

Sri lankan can fly derectly kfir israeli train them to fly it and end tamil rebel completely why paf pilot cannot do it. Israeli says if you buy kfir they will train you how to fly it.like what the italian is doing training our aw-109 pilot to fly at night. Elbit system make simulator for kfir.

The Sri Lankan pilots have fighter aircraft experience when they flew the Kfir, are using an older version of the Kfir. The ones offered to the PAF is far more advanced, and the PAF pilots doesn't have recent fighter experience.

The PN just confirmed the option for 2 more AW109, which was already announced months ago. The original contract between AgustaWestland and PN was 3 units + 2 options. This 2 units discussed in the article are the 2 options before.

Hi Sir Max, are these 2 AW109 helicopter followup order by the PN have differenent configurations compared to the first delivered 3 last year? It may be similar only to the PAF AW109 but with an add-in over the horizon targeting system for naval application.

Radars are no longer 'haka-haka' as an implementation agreement has already been signed with Israel's Elta for 3 radar sets to be delivered within 2 years. Israel will be lending the AFP 1 radar set while waiting for the delivery of the 3 radar sets. With the purchase of Israeli radars, it could pave the way for Israeli SAMs as well.

Ramil, the same article says that the Koreans call the Philippine-export FA-50 as the T-50ph. This is similar to what they did with the Iraqis, which ordered FA-50 and are called the T-50iq.

Indonesia also got TA-50s, but were called T-50i by the Koreans. It's just a naming standardization thing. It is actually beneficial since it would remind everyone in our government and people that the FA-50/T-50ph is not an MRF, and the PAF will need MRF after buying these SAA/LIFT aircraft.

The frigate project is moving, no news doesn't mean nothing happens. There are many AFP projects that moved without majority of the public knowing like the air defense radars from Israel, Hummers, trucks and M113 from the US, the new CUH, and many others.

No confirmation if the Spyder is a go. Last information was it was offered to the AFP and the AFP was really interested in them.

The short: By the way, my own understanding for the M346 (and why countries like Israel and Singapore chose it) is that it provides 2 engines advance jet trainers for them. Israel and Singapore got their own doctrines, needs and priorities. It's something a single engine jet trainer like T50 cannot provide even if there are softwares installed to simulate the experience. It's just that T50 doesn't fit their needs as much as M346. On our case, our AFP got their own needs, criteria and priorities and T50 fits our needs.

Just like US prefers bigger and faster airplanes BUT only allowed F5 and F8 to allied countries decades ago. And it works for the PH during that time to have the smaller F5. We may have wanted the bigger planes but we only needed the smaller ones. Unless, our planners changes their minds, we stick to practical, smaller and single engine planes for now.

In long: My take, since Israel and Singapore got F15s, they needed M346. Since we are not aiming for F15s, T50s fits our bill plus a lot more.

My hope is that Filipinos would learn to look for other infos aside from news and media outlets. Then they can discern for themselves. In that way, they cannot be easily misinformed, badly persuaded/dissuaded or used/abused by people with their own agendas.

I admire this site because it sticks to its purpose of modernization without the usual sidelines of other blogs.

@ Anonymous and Max : first of all let me clarify certain comment that was taken out of context from my last blog about the advantages of the FA 50 from the M346 and why the Kfir 60 even with the current mods would only be an interim MRF which is why the F 16 Netz would be a better choice. As Mr Anonymous would describe the Kfir 60 as a "situation awareness " aircraft as it would be more of a target for the opposing aircraft like an SU 30 or the newer SU 35 which makes it a costly counter productive air defense investment . If your thinking more of a maritime/aerial surveillance aircraft then there are more cost effective aircraft in the market . Now, with wing dimensions you can do your own comparison and evaluations on Dassault Rafale , Eurofighter Typhoon and Jas 39 Gripen which you can consider as allied aircrafts of a 4.5 generation MRF. After all of what you said on your comment we have more similarities on our conclusion with Kfir 60 than differences , "on a grain of salt". As with the political and contract issues on the FA50 "blues" deal which we are all aware off thanks to MaxDefense and other defense blogs. Which is why I was emphasizing the advantages of the FA 50 over M346 because if ever and I'm quiet confident that it will be the next LIFT aircraft of the PAF. For the record it is a more cost effective and a better light attack aircraft currently in the market . With all fairness to RHK111's aircraft comparison all informations are solely base on the current issues of the Philippines Military Modernization plan and the current probable threat it has to face.

Oplan X, comparing the 2 aircraft using physical attributes cannot be enough to determine which is better. We do not have access to the PAF & DND's evaluation of the 2 aircraft models, but based on criteria of combat capability, speed, and political gains, the FA-50 was chosen. The Kfir Blk. 60 is being offered as a stop-gap measure since the FA-50 is still having problems, and that the delivery will take time. Although it is a dead-end design, the aircraft itself will not be pushed to serve for so long, but will need to be serviceable for another 15 years minimum. They can continue to fly even when newer fighters are available as long as the PAF can do and want so.

Wow thats a good news Mr. Pol, at least the PAF will be having a brand new LIFT aircraft with its new airframe, engines and avionics...for sure it will served the PAF for more years. So that is one of a good step by AFP, and to follow the aquisition of an MRF if more funds available granting with the full support of the House and the Senate.

Hi Mr. Pol, the 15% DP under Phil Law its the norms of our Government procurement system and usually its follows also the progressive payment scheme, but the question is this 52% progress payment is equatable also to the 52% of the Direct cost actual accomplishment of the LIFT aircraft project cash flow program within a year cut off? To simplify, the 52% progress payment should be justifiable that 52% of the aircraft construction had been accomplished by KAI if we have to follow the Phil Govt. procurement without violation. Lets ask Sir Max for His opinion regarding this.

It may be justifiable if the reported fast-tracking of 2 units will turn out to be true. These 2 units will supposedly come from production slots already allotted to the Sokor AF which might explain the 12 month gap between the first batch delivery and the next batch. Remember Sokor, Indonesia and Iraq are ahead of the PAF in the production queue.

Plans have been there. But geting a tank requires massive investment in supporting it. Due to lack of funding, the PA instead uses its limited finances to acquire other assets to fill in its other shortcomings. In short, its not in the main priority list right now, but it is in the wishlist.

sir Max, how would you classify the fourteen (14) M113A2 fitted with a 76mm (scorpion turret)? will they already fall in the category of a tank? if so, how would you recommend these to be employed? should the MID integrate them in a cavalry squadron unit or should they create a light armor unit for these AVs?

This tank should be protected by trophy aps or the iron fist aps.those body armored won't work with rpg .what this need ia an active protection system like trophy of rafael or iron fist of iai noth from israel. It also need protection from ground ied.

A former naval officer of the Philippine Navy, initially a reservist before becoming an active officer, opted to retire early and migrate to another country. Aside from being in the service, he has been following Philippine and regional defence issues, as well as military technology and industrial movements, and developments in regional military upgrades since the mid 1990s. He has been involved in other defence sites & minor publications for the past several years, and a regular at regional defence exhibitions & symposiums. Currently works as a systems consultant for a foreign military organisation. As a defence writer, he has no political affiliation, and would not hesitate to criticise any political leader, organisation, or political part when issues on defence and security of the Philippines are believed to be in peril.