Is there perhaps a generational divide in this (and other) discussions on the board? 50-somethings "condescending" to 20-somethings? I know I come up against that wall here, thinking to myself "Oh, well, they're just kids," and walking away from a conflict. Now, of course, I've gotten into plenty of wrangles with my fellow grown ups, to be sure. Just wondering if the older, wiser participants might consider imagining the younger posters as nephews/nieces or beloved students and I wonder if the younger folk wouldn't get further in these conflicts if they recognized that the argument is naturally gonna be a little slanted against them owing to simple inexperience and other developmental issues. Is that too utopian of me?

Having spent some time in and around tribal cultures, I find a lot of value in gerentocracy as a model of governance (within a close-nit small community such as the RWED ). I'm really sorry if that sounds "condescending" to the youngsters hereabout, but in a healthy community shouldn't that have some bearing??? Just felt the need to point out what certainly looks like an elephant in the chatroom.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Hello,

This is an interesting thought. In my own life, the tendency to 'condescend' to a group of people has largely seemed to be a trait of the immature condescending to the mature.

I remember when the blush of youth was upon me, I couldn't believe how stupid my elders were.

As the years have passed, I have become more and more stupid myself, while my elders seem to have become increasingly wise. It has been a curious transition to observe.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

Quote:I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.

As KIKI said- not "can't", but "not allowed to".

So, if you REALLY want to make the PO run better, remove the Republican politicians who put the roadblocks in the way (specifically to kill the PO) and then remove the roadblocks. Let government be government. And THEN you can get to the creative solutions. Have at it!

Quote:I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.

As KIKI said- not "can't", but "not allowed to".

So, if you REALLY want to make the PO run better, remove the Republican politicians who put the roadblocks in the way (specifically to kill the PO) and then remove the roadblocks. Let government be government. And THEN you can get to the creative solutions. Have at it!

Agreed.

I find it a little silly that "creativity" is assumed to go hand-in-hand with "for profit". I have not experienced this in real life. I've found the requirement of profit often (but not always) damps down creativity.

Quote:I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.

As KIKI said- not "can't", but "not allowed to".

So, if you REALLY want to make the PO run better, remove the Republican politicians who put the roadblocks in the way (specifically to kill the PO) and then remove the roadblocks. Let government be government. And THEN you can get to the creative solutions. Have at it!

Exactly! Now you are thinking of solutions, thinking forward. I know - and maybe this is something to HK's point - some older folks can seem jaded as hell.

It's simple, "not allowed to" is another way of saying "can't." You just see it differently than I do.

Is there perhaps a generational divide in this (and other) discussions on the board? 50-somethings "condescending" to 20-somethings?

Hmm. I do not belong to either of your age groups, but solidly in the middle.

Anyway, this is not what I've experienced. The "condescending" accusation in this thread, which was aimed at me, was no more than I expect from a certain kind of mentality. I've seen it in all ages, though more often in older folks. My mom is the master. When faced with an unacceptable topic of discussion, some brains have an escalating three phase avoidance technique:

1. Ignore
2. Criticize some detail about the presentation (ie mal4prez's posts are too long)
3. The emotion bomb (mal4prez was condescending and mean and I don't have to stand for this!)

The last one is the nuclear option, the guaranteed way out of having to actually discuss the topic at hand.

Honestly, I don't see that I was condescending as much as mocking someone with a closed mind, which is certainly something I do. I have little patience for those who shout their opinions while sticking their fingers in their ears, and wishimay came right out and said that's what she was doing. It's disrespectful behavior, and should be mocked.

Hmm. I have to admit though, I'm oddly fascinated by it. Some people like to poke Rappy, I can't help poking minds that seem closed.

Quote:I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.

As KIKI said- not "can't", but "not allowed to".

So, if you REALLY want to make the PO run better, remove the Republican politicians who put the roadblocks in the way (specifically to kill the PO) and then remove the roadblocks. Let government be government. And THEN you can get to the creative solutions. Have at it!

Agreed.

I find it a little silly that "creativity" is assumed to go hand-in-hand with "for profit". I have not experienced this in real life. I've found the requirement of profit often (but not always) damps down creativity.

I don't assume it - people can run restaurants into the ground from lack of creativity. It can happen anywhere and in varying degrees - just like you, I go by my own experiences. I do think competition is a great way to spur innovation. As we see almost every day on this board people think gov agencies are terrible, and poorly run in general. I think that's a fairly widely held belief too, whether it's right or wrong, it's still out there. Does anyone think this attitude toward public servants makes them want to work harder? I worked in a state unemployment agency for 5 days - it was hell on earth. There was no reward for creativity, "shut up and do your work," more just get through the day mentality. More to the point for me, the creative people I see that speak to me are not in gov.

Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Do you think insulting people some how makes you more right?"

No, I just enjoy it. I enjoy irritating the people who irritate me. And unlike little Rappy, I'll actually address the questions with real facts and logic. It's my facts and my arguments that make me more right. But if you skip past both I can see how that might be lost on you.

I read your facts, I saw both you and Signym try and sell, "but it's just not possible!" And I also see you both not understanding that laws can be changed. What just happened? Health Care? Should we just accept every law, "can't change it."

Btw - I have a good friend who works as a mail carrier. The stories he tells...

Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki:

There's a difference between saying "can't" and "by law forbidden to". Signy and myself are both saying the PO is FORBIDDEN/ CONSTRAINED from running in new ways that makes sense and from doing new things that are useful. Don't blame the PO for lack of vision or initiative. Blame the roadblocks that are specifically put in front of the PO, and the hobbles specifically placed on it.

I never once blamed the PO. They've actually done some pretty innovative things recently. I tried to order their latest direct mail marketing kit... took 3 times before I got it. I use their nifty self-serve kiosk once a week. There's plenty of room for improvement, but I don't blame them - what's their motivation?

I'm still curious about those "ignorant right wing ideas," you say I had.

I don't assume it - people can run restaurants into the ground from lack of creativity. It can happen anywhere and in varying degrees - just like you, I go by my own experiences. I do think competition is a great way to spur innovation. As we see almost every day on this board people think gov agencies are terrible, and poorly run in general - does anyone think this attitude toward public servants makes them want to work harder? I worked in a state unemployment agency for 5 days - it was hell on earth. There was no reward for creativity, "shut up and do your work," more just get through the day mentality. More to the point for me, the creative people I see that speak to me are not in gov.

The "shuddup" attitude is certainly lamentable, but I don't see that it is more associated with govt or business or profit or non-profit. It is associated with bad human mentalities (like the one I just posted about) and can happen anywhere.

I perhaps have very different experience from you, because I seen and been a part of great creativity due to govt funded and run science. The US science labs do some incredible research, and they can do that because they do not have to be constantly pleasing shareholders and bonus-hungry CEOs.

I have also worked for a few corporations, one was based in the US and bordered on horrible, one was founded in France and fucking fantastic. They believed that happy scientists are creative scientists, and if I told you about the beautiful offices and the out-of-control cafeteria you might cry.

I think your agency experience is not a problem with government, it's a problem with unsupported government. Like the post office and public schools: if we want better environments, better employees, and more productivity, we have to support these programs. The Right is actually involved in removing this support, so they are creating this problem.

I find it astounding that they claim huge million dollar bonuses are needed to attract the best CEOs, but a decent living wage of a few tens of thousands is too much to give a free-loading POS school teacher. Astounding.

Quote:I read your facts, I saw both you and Signym try and sell, "but it's just not possible!"

Maybe you misunderstood. What I SAID was "not allowed", not "not possible". As any child knows, there is a difference between what CAN be done and what the rules say you can do.

Quote:Exactly! Now you are thinking of solutions, thinking forward

Oh golly gee, do I get a cookie now? I think I've been thinking of ways forward longer than you've been alive. I've created a lot of innovations in my work area, often despite management directive. I guess I believe in asking forgiveness instead of permission. I think you don't really know who you're talking to.

Quote:I worked in a state unemployment agency for 5 days - it was hell on earth. There was no reward for creativity, "shut up and do your work," more just get through the day mentality.

I take it you've never worked on an assembly line?

In any case, the "shaddup" mentality comes about in ANY top-down organization where people are expected to be interchangeable cogs. That can happen in a call center, or on an assembly line, or in government. But you're right- the constant scapegoating of teachers and government employees can be very demotivating, especially if you're in a job that demands creativity.

I don't assume it - people can run restaurants into the ground from lack of creativity. It can happen anywhere and in varying degrees - just like you, I go by my own experiences. I do think competition is a great way to spur innovation. As we see almost every day on this board people think gov agencies are terrible, and poorly run in general - does anyone think this attitude toward public servants makes them want to work harder? I worked in a state unemployment agency for 5 days - it was hell on earth. There was no reward for creativity, "shut up and do your work," more just get through the day mentality. More to the point for me, the creative people I see that speak to me are not in gov.

The "shuddup" attitude is certainly lamentable, but I don't see that it is more associated with govt or business or profit or non-profit. It is associated with bad human mentalities (like the one I just posted about) and can happen anywhere.

I perhaps have very different experience from you, because I seen and been a part of great creativity due to govt funded and run science. The US science labs do some incredible research, and they can do that because they do not have to be constantly pleasing shareholders and bonus-hungry CEOs.

I have also worked for a few corporations, one was based in the US and bordered on horrible, one was founded in France and fucking fantastic. They believed that happy scientists are creative scientists, and if I told you about the beautiful offices and the out-of-control cafeteria you might cry.

I think your agency experience is not a problem with government, it's a problem with unsupported government. Like the post office and public schools: if we want better environments, better employees, and more productivity, we have to support these programs. The Right is actually involved in removing this support, so they are creating this problem.

I find it astounding that they claim huge million dollar bonuses are needed to attract the best CEOs, but a decent living wage of a few tens of thousands is too much to give a free-loading POS school teacher. Astounding.

Totally agree with your take on bad human mentalities. Since 1995 I have been pretty well immersed in the Internet. Building web sites got me out of bar tending and waiting tables, so that's been my world since then. I find it STILL to be the most fabulously creative field I think we may have ever seen, certainly that I've ever known. Meanwhile politicians argue, Medicare (which I take care of for my mom) is mind numbingly frustrating and backward and dull and evil - one of these days I will scan her monthly documents (6-8 pages, double sided text, for an aging senior - f*cksake) and post them so everyone can have their minds fried. So I guess I'm prejudice. I see the Internet and internet businesses and I see great innovation, I see gov agencies and I see the worst kind of problem solving. And I sure as hell don't see innovation. In some other countries, but not ours.

Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach: I see the Internet and internet businesses and I see great innovation, I see gov agencies and I see the worst kind of problem solving. And I sure as hell don't see innovation. In some other countries, but not ours.

1. Do you believe the govt has had no hand in creating and supporting the internet?
2. What do you think is the reason for the lack of innovation you've seen in the govt? Specifically, please. "Lack of creative people" is not a specific answer.

Quote:I read your facts, I saw both you and Signym try and sell, "but it's just not possible!"

Maybe you misunderstood. What I SAID was "not allowed", not "not possible". As any child knows, there is a difference between what CAN be done and what the rules say you can do.

I guess the child in me says f*ck the rules.

Quote:Oh golly gee, do I get a cookie now? I think I've been thinking of ways forward longer than you've been alive. I've created a lot of innovations in my work area, often despite management directive. I guess I believe in asking forgiveness instead of permission. I think you don't really know who you're talking to.

You really don't either do you? It's a web forum, what are you going to do? And yes you can have a cookie - eat it over the sink please :)

Quote:I take it you've never worked on an assembly line?

No, I haven't, though I wish I could have when I was in college - guys that were lucky enough to know someone got in at a Cleveland steel plant and made incredible money - most of us were very jealous. Look, I know how you feel about corps Signym, I'm not trying to sell you/anyone on Corporations are Great.

Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM:In any case, the "shaddup" mentality comes about in ANY top-down organization where people are expected to be interchangeable cogs. That can happen in a call center, or on an assembly line, or in government. But you're right- the constant scapegoating of teachers and government employees can be very demotivating, especially if you're in a job that demands creativity.

It goes to M4P's suggestion - that (almost like the Israeli military) we should all have to work a year in the public sector, or maybe it's "pick one of three fields" for our 1 year tour.

Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach: I see the Internet and internet businesses and I see great innovation, I see gov agencies and I see the worst kind of problem solving. And I sure as hell don't see innovation. In some other countries, but not ours.

1. Do you believe the govt has had no hand in creating and supporting the internet?
2. What do you think is the reason for the lack of innovation you've seen in the govt? Specifically, please. "Lack of creative people" is not a specific answer.

1. No, Arpanet of course. Defense funding has had a hand in a number of off shoot innovations, but they are not primary to their goal.
2. Regulations, party gridlock, working with other people's money is not the same as working with your own, lack of a system that rewards and fosters innovation?

Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach:
1. No, Arpanet of course. Defense funding has had a hand in a number of off shoot innovations, but they are not primary to their goal.

Wow. No? So creating the internet and the entire structure behind it has nothing to do with the internet that exists today?

imo, the internet is a perfect example of what the govt should do. Fund and carry out research that is initially financially worthless because no one else will spend their own dollar on it. When it becomes profitable pass it off to people like you who put on all the icing and cool bells and whistles.

"No." I find it sad that you don't credit the people and organizations who made it possible for you to do what you are doing today.

Quote:2. Regulations, party gridlock, working with other people's money is not the same as working with your own, lack of a system that rewards and fosters innovation?

Agree on the first two, though I dig deeper and see these not as the fault of govt in general, but the fault of bad govt due to "bad" people being involved. The same problems can, and do, happen in private companies. Too many rules and gridlock. Check.

As for 2: Do you think govt employees find no reward in innovation, simply because you had such a bad experience in one small corner of a govt organization? This is something else I find astounding. Surely you are aware of how many ground-breaking ideas come from govt labs and govt funded groups at universities? I am a little agog that you seem in denial of this. I can't even begin making a list.

I find your argument part of a trend I've been aware of for years, but it seems to be jumping out at me lately: equating everything with money. Want to punish a person or organization? Take their money. Want to praise them/it? Money. Judge success? How much money does someone have. How good is some creation? Well, how much money did it make?

It's quite prevalent. I don't think I'm explaining it well. I need to keep track of examples so I can do a better job. I think corporate folks in the 50s set out to create this materialistic mentality, and it's taken hold so strongly that we don't even see it. Everything is about money. I'm calling you with an offer to save $500, how can you say no? This other job has a big raise - you couldn't possibly stay where you are!

Uh, back to my point: If people have money as an incentive, you say, they will do better things. I don't agree. They will do more profitable things, and perhaps this means creating cool apps that appeal to the masses. I tend to not like things that appeal to the masses, so I don't tend to equate higher profit with success. Some of my favorite things are things with little to no monetary value, and were created by people who were not interested in making maximum profit.

I find it very sad that this is so rare these days.

Also, no offense, but I mourn the loss of the internet we had in the mid 90s. It was more work then, but so much freer and wide open. You didn't just sign up for facebook, upload pictures and choose the formats they offer you. You created your own page, writing your own damned html. Surfing the net meant finding these bizarre creations about weird topics I'd never thought of. Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages. It's fancy. It's impressive. It's soulless.

MAL4PREZ, thank you. You said it well enough. Not everything can be privatized and turned into profit, and not everything can be bought. Studies show that creativity is NOT motivated by money, and not motivated by competition, Fear and stress just shut people down, if anything. Not everything is money. Friendship is not money. Innovation is not money. Intelligence is not money. Wisdom is not money. Long-term planning is not money. Security is not money. All of the really important things are not money.

PIZMO
Couple of things- First of all, "government" can be extremely creative. Just look at the Founding Fathers: they created a form of government which hadn't even existed before. The problem is that since Reagan, government has been operating under a group of politicians who don't think government should exist at all. That means most agencies are operating from a defensive crouch. It's hard to be creative when you're waiting for the ax to fall, or constantly being limited and berated by politicians who don't know what the fuck you're doing but sure think you make a good target.

But being a website designer, I also think you overrate creativity. There are a lot of processes and solutions that are extremely well-known. For example, managing forests to reduce fires and improve water regulation is pretty tried-and-true. What it needs, though, is PEOPLE-POWER and MONEY. There is no magic gizmo that will allow people to get into forests and thin on a tree-by-tree basis, and then create biochar from the saplings and refuse. Sometimes, it just requires a lot of work, yanno?

Is there perhaps a generational divide in this (and other) discussions on the board? 50-somethings "condescending" to 20-somethings?

Hmm. I do not belong to either of your age groups, but solidly in the middle.

Anyway, this is not what I've experienced. The "condescending" accusation in this thread, which was aimed at me, was no more than I expect from a certain kind of mentality. I've seen it in all ages, though more often in older folks. My mom is the master. When faced with an unacceptable topic of discussion, some brains have an escalating three phase avoidance technique:

1. Ignore
2. Criticize some detail about the presentation (ie mal4prez's posts are too long)
3. The emotion bomb (mal4prez was condescending and mean and I don't have to stand for this!)

The last one is the nuclear option, the guaranteed way out of having to actually discuss the topic at hand.

Honestly, I don't see that I was condescending as much as mocking someone with a closed mind, which is certainly something I do. I have little patience for those who shout their opinions while sticking their fingers in their ears, and wishimay came right out and said that's what she was doing. It's disrespectful behavior, and should be mocked.

Hmm. I have to admit though, I'm oddly fascinated by it. Some people like to poke Rappy, I can't help poking minds that seem closed.

Hey mal4,

I don't fit either of the categories myself! I wasn't thinking about you so much as I was thinking about Wishimay who reads very much (sorry Wish) as a 20-something with the 20-something's tendency to feel condescended to by all and sundry. It goes with the territory. And maybe I'm just not clear on who accused who of what, which would not surprise me.

I was just thinking about how there is something fundamentally forgivable about people in their twenties saying all kinds of stupid shit IN REAL LIFE that can get lost on the internet. Sometimes I wonder how much of the flamewars I see online are really cross-generational culture-clashes. I thought that realization might keep a wise adult from taking 'em too much to heart or getting too outraged. I was hoping, as I so often hope on this forum, that the dialogue might take a turn toward the civil, and from what I've read so far today, it has done just that so I'm happy. O' course, I can't claim credit for the turn as I cross posted with Anthony who was much more to the point than I.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:I try to reserve insults for people or conversations that are no longer useful or productive in any way. Perhaps you feel this thread or your partner in these discussions fits that mold?

My interest in anything Pizmo thinks or posts ended here, at this mindless and ignorant mantra, repeated TWICE, with random and unjustified insults to government employees thrown in b/c, well, they're a popular target among some circles at at the moment:

Quote:Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run. ...

Quote:I think some of the for profit folks would say it's even worse if it's a gov employee running things because they don't have profit motive to move things along - no carrot, all stick. That's where my imagined Resolution for Dummies comes in :)

I don't fit either of the categories myself! I wasn't thinking about you so much as I was thinking about Wishimay who reads very much (sorry Wish) as a 20-something with the 20-something's tendency to feel condescended to by all and sundry. It goes with the territory. And maybe I'm just not clear on who accused who of what, which would not surprise me.

I was just thinking about how there is something fundamentally forgivable about people in their twenties saying all kinds of stupid shit IN REAL LIFE that can get lost on the internet. Sometimes I wonder how much of the flamewars I see online are really cross-generational culture-clashes. I thought that realization might keep a wise adult from taking 'em too much to heart or getting too outraged. I was hoping, as I so often hope on this forum, that the dialogue might take a turn toward the civil, and from what I've read so far today, it has done just that so I'm happy. O' course, I can't claim credit for the turn as I cross posted with Anthony who was much more to the point than I.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Point taken. I had not read wishimay as being that young. And if she is still lurking, I hope she will understand, as other RWED posters before her have not, that I'm not half as emotional towards her as she thinks. I'm ready and able to have friendly chats with her in the future. In fact, I'll likely forget this pretty quickly, and only return to mocking mode if I sense disconnected replies again - those written without reading my posts.

I really do not want to be uncivil to anyone, but I find it impossible sometimes. It seems that some people define politeness to be stating my case in a way that can be ignored. Therefore, refusing to be ignored, no matter how carefully and politely I go about it, is not civil. Few things irk me more than being ignored, especially when the ignore-r tries to make it my fault. ie I didn't word things exactly right so my questions, no matter how carefully prepared, do not deserve to be addressed.

I am well aware that I may bring a 2x4 to this situation because to my sensitivity (that past history with mom) but when offered a choice between being ignored and being a bit confrontational, I'm gonna have to go with option b. And now I have pulled a 6string and brought my own issues into the thread. Sorry about that.

Quote:I try to reserve insults for people or conversations that are no longer useful or productive in any way. Perhaps you feel this thread or your partner in these discussions fits that mold?

My interest in anything Pizmo thinks or posts ended here, at this mindless and ignorant mantra, repeated TWICE, with random and unjustified insults to government employees thrown in b/c, well, they're a popular target among some circles at at the moment:

Understandable. I feel like Pizmo, who I've seen around RWED a lot but I think never really chatted with before, is a smart person with their heart in the right place who's just had a little too much kool-aid. Sees the problems, but instantly goes with the convenient scapegoat.

I hope you don't give up Kiki. I think there's common ground here, and room for all to grow.

Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach:
1. No, Arpanet of course. Defense funding has had a hand in a number of off shoot innovations, but they are not primary to their goal.

Wow. No? So creating the internet and the entire structure behind it has nothing to do with the internet that exists today?

imo, the internet is a perfect example of what the govt should do. Fund and carry out research that is initially financially worthless because no one else will spend their own dollar on it. When it becomes profitable pass it off to people like you who put on all the icing and cool bells and whistles.

"No." I find it sad that you don't credit the people and organizations who made it possible for you to do what you are doing today.

You're reading it wrong (blast you) - maybe because you worded the question oddly: "Do you believe the govt has had no hand in creating and supporting the internet?" NO, I don't believe the Internet has had NO hand in creating the Internet... it created Arpanet. It's like you are hoping for a negative answer....

Quote:Originally posted by mal4prez:

Quote:2. Regulations, party gridlock, working with other people's money is not the same as working with your own, lack of a system that rewards and fosters innovation?

Agree on the first two, though I dig deeper and see these not as the fault of govt in general, but the fault of bad govt due to "bad" people being involved. The same problems can, and do, happen in private companies. Too many rules and gridlock. Check.

Sure, it exists where people exist. I've just never read any articles about "Government Efficiency & Innovation."

Quote:Originally posted by mal4prez:As for 2: Do you think govt employees find no reward in innovation, simply because you had such a bad experience in one small corner of a govt organization? This is something else I find astounding. Surely you are aware of how many ground-breaking ideas come from govt labs and govt funded groups at universities? I am a little agog that you seem in denial of this. I can't even begin making a list.

Universities yes, funded by gov no - I've not seen the figures.

You presume things I never said, and from the little I did say you extrapolate to a conclusion you find objectionable so you can correct or even lecture (though only mildly, thx). Example:

"Do you think govt employees find no reward in innovation, simply because you had such a bad experience in one small corner of a govt organization? This is something else I find astounding. "

Thanks for the negative presumption. I think innovation in and of itself is the greatest reward. Do you remember the part where I posted about being a shameless worshipper of Problem Solvers? Not financial geniuses. I can't stop you from trying to read something else into what I type - so have a field day.

Quote:Originally posted by mal4prez: I find your argument part of a trend I've been aware of for years, but it seems to be jumping out at me lately: equating everything with money. Want to punish a person or organization? Take their money. Want to praise them/it? Money. Judge success? How much money does someone have. How good is some creation? Well, how much money did it make?

Have you ever been really, really broke? For years? If you haven't been then maybe money won't mean as much. Maybe you have so many negative associations with money that you find it ugly? For me it is freedom. Freedom from fear, from dick bosses, from uncertainty, more fear than I ever care to revisit, the kind of freedom many people who post here mourn the loss of. I know that pain. I'm not a greedy bastard. I think I want what almost every human wants: to be left alone and not have to worry about paying rent, taking care of my family, simple stuff.

Quote:Originally posted by mal4prez: Uh, back to my point: If people have money as an incentive, you say, they will do better things. I don't agree. They will do more profitable things, and perhaps this means creating cool apps that appeal to the masses. I tend to not like things that appeal to the masses, so I don't tend to equate higher profit with success. Some of my favorite things are things with little to no monetary value, and were created by people who were not interested in making maximum profit.

I find it very sad that this is so rare these days.

Also, no offense, but I mourn the loss of the internet we had in the mid 90s. It was more work then, but so much freer and wide open. You didn't just sign up for facebook, upload pictures and choose the formats they offer you. You created your own page, writing your own damned html. Surfing the net meant finding these bizarre creations about weird topics I'd never thought of. Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages. It's fancy. It's impressive. It's soulless.

Gah - please stop typing if you are going to say such overly simplistic and sentimental things like; "Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages." It really isn't. It doesn't even sound like you!

Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach:
You're reading it wrong (blast you) - maybe because you worded the question oddly: "Do you believe the govt has had no hand in creating and supporting the internet?" NO, I don't believe the Internet has had NO hand in creating the Internet... it created Arpanet. It's like you are hoping for a negative answer....

OK, my mistake. I read it as:

"No. Arpanet..."

I'm relieved that you did not mean it this way!

You know, piz, after following the PO discussion, I think disagreements come up around you just because you relate words and concepts a little different than other people. This is not criticism, it's empathy. I have a long history of doing the same. I think your concepts agree with other posters here, including me, but your words don't express your ideas quite clearly.

Like with the post office thing: you meant that the rules governing the PO should be broken so the PO can do better. But what came off (and I got this impression quite strongly) was that you believe govt employees are idiots and only if private enterprise took over could the PO do better.

I would ask this: please be aware that your ideas do not come through clearly, and give the rest of us a chance to sort things out as you explain in more detail.

Quote:Sure, it exists where people exist. I've just never read any articles about "Government Efficiency & Innovation."

Before I misunderstand: you will only believe in govt innovation if you are fed an article about it? You, whose livelihood and passion is the internet? Created by the govt?

Quote:Universities yes, funded by gov no - I've not seen the figures.

Do tell. And if I have an afternoon free I could make quite a list of DOD and DOE funded research that has changed the world. Funded me for quite some time.

Quote:Thanks for the negative presumption. I think innovation in and of itself is the greatest reward. Do you remember the part where I posted about being a shameless worshipper of Problem Solvers? Not financial geniuses. I can't stop you from trying to read something else into what I type - so have a field day.

I recall it well. And you clearly implied, though maybe you didn't mean to, that Problem Solvers will only step up when their own money is at stake.

Again, this may be a communication thing, but the message I got from your earlier posts was that true Problem Solving come from for-profit enterprises. Correct me, and correct your interpretation of my posts, if this is not what you meant.

Quote:Have you ever been really, really broke? For years? If you haven't been then maybe money won't mean as much. Maybe you have so many negative associations with money that you find it ugly? For me it is freedom, the kind of freedom many people who post here mourn the loss of. I'm not a greedy bastard. I think I want what almost every human wants: to be left alone and not have to worry about paying rent, taking care of my family, simple stuff.

I have sold my blood in a deep freeze in February so I could buy gas. Really, the needle was on E when I pulled in the lot, and if my blood iron had been too low I would not have made it home. I have suffered pangs of guilt for buying a second bag of $.35 cent Fritos from a vending machine. I have lived on Taco Bell.

I gave up a lucrative career in the oil industry because I prefer to have 3 months of the year free to take dance classes in a style that will never be popular and will never, even if I was 20 again and more talented than I will ever dream of being, lead me to financial prosperity.

Quote:Gah - please stop typing if you are going to say such overly simplistic and sentimental things like; "Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages." It really isn't. It doesn't even sound like you!

How do you know me so well? Were you there in the early 90s when I discovered the internet?

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"You have a lack of imagination, you embody the Can't Do spirit, which funny enough, is the hallmark of a lot of ***gov agencies***. That's why I suggested entrepreneurs (does that word scare or anger you?) ... and they would either go around or find a way to change the funding issues."

Now, here is more knee-JERK scapegoating of government and adulation of 'the private sector'. (You know, that thing you claim you NEVER do. Right here as a matter of fact: "I never once blamed the PO.") Along with your usual condescending snark. So, you would 'go around rules'? As much as I despise the rules put in place for the PO, when you get a government group determined to creatively go around their rules like you repeatedly advocate you get Iran-Contra. Don't know what that is? Look it up. Not that you will, of course.

"... Medicare (which I take care of for my mom) is mind numbingly frustrating and backward and dull and evil ..."

Have you fucking EVER dealt with private insurance? Ever have to think about your mom hitting her private insurance life-time cap and being completely out of insurance? And uninsurable? So EVERY bill comes out of her pocket or she doesn't fucking get any care at all? Or is private health insurance too fucking expensive b/c those for-profit BRILLIANT INNOVATIVE entrepreneur minds couldn’t fucking FIND a way to insure your mom and make all the money they want to at the same time?

Oh, BTW, the reason medicare is the nightmare it is is due to good ole' Ronnie Raygun who commanded that things called DRGs (look it up, or stay ignorant, your choice) be set in place to make it far, far harder to get government-supported health care. Yes, you and your right-wing asshole buddies have been trying to starve every government service out of existence for that long. Taking away funds, setting limits, hobbling agencies. And hypocritically complaining that those agencies can't do the job for just as long. Yes, that very SAME group that very creatively went WAAAaaayyy out of its way to go around every funding rule put in place for them to give us - TA DAA! - Iran-Contra. You should be so proud of them. They really embodied that CAN DO! spirit you horn-dog after so much.

Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Gah - please stop typing if you are going to say such overly simplistic and sentimental things like; "Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages." It really isn't. It doesn't even sound like you!

How do you know me so well? Were you there in the early 90s when I discovered the internet?

Pizmo, if you reply to nothing else, can you please explain how you got to know me so well that you know my opinions better than I do? As far as I can recall, I haven't had any kind of in-depth exchange with you in recent times. We've both been around FFF a while, so maybe we talked when I was posting more. That would be a good five years ago, long enough that I don't recall any personal or personality details about you.

So do tell, how do you know me so well?

BTW, "Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages." is EXACTLY what I meant.

Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Gah - please stop typing if you are going to say such overly simplistic and sentimental things like; "Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages." It really isn't. It doesn't even sound like you!

How do you know me so well? Were you there in the early 90s when I discovered the internet?

Pizmo, if you reply to nothing else, can you please explain how you got to know me so well that you know my opinions better than I do? As far as I can recall, I haven't had any kind of in-depth exchange with you in recent times. We've both been around FFF a while, so maybe we talked when I was posting more. That would be a good five years ago, long enough that I don't recall any personal or personality details about you.

So do tell, how do you know me so well?

BTW, "Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages." is EXACTLY what I meant.

Hey. I was actually just starting a PM for you with answers to you last post - give me a few and I'll ship it over (does your PM work?).

Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Gah - please stop typing if you are going to say such overly simplistic and sentimental things like; "Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages." It really isn't. It doesn't even sound like you!

How do you know me so well? Were you there in the early 90s when I discovered the internet?

Pizmo, if you reply to nothing else, can you please explain how you got to know me so well that you know my opinions better than I do? As far as I can recall, I haven't had any kind of in-depth exchange with you in recent times. We've both been around FFF a while, so maybe we talked when I was posting more. That would be a good five years ago, long enough that I don't recall any personal or personality details about you.

So do tell, how do you know me so well?

BTW, "Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages." is EXACTLY what I meant.

Hey. I was actually just starting a PM for you with answers to you last post - give me a few and I'll ship it over (does your PM work?).

Gonna chime in with KIKI here on Medicare versus private insurance, altho minus some of the anger: Having dealt with both, I would FAR PREFER Medicare to private, particularly as my daughter would not even be eligble for private insurance due to a pre-existing condition.

And, if you have ever talked to hospital/ doctor/ laboratory/ pharmacy billing departments, they will be more than happy to tell you what a clusterfuck private insurances represent.

Sure, there are better ways to manage government-run healthcare. But even hobbled as it is by Ronnie Raygun's restrictions, it far surpasses private health insurances in availability of coverage and efficiency of delivery. Because all the private healthcare insurances have managed to do is use all of their massive "creativity" is figuring out how to screw people over, write in really tiny print (kinda like banks), and "creatively" cook their books.

Quote:Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Gonna chime in with KIKI here on Medicare versus private insurance, altho minus some of the anger: Having dealt with both, I would FAR PREFER Medicare to private, particularly as my daughter would not even be eligble for private insurance due to a pre-existing condition.

And, if you have ever talked to hospital/ doctor/ laboratory/ pharmacy billing departments, they will be more than happy to tell you what a clusterfuck private insurances represent.

Sure, there are better ways to manage government-run healthcare. But even hobbled as it is by Ronnie Raygun's restrictions, it far surpasses private health insurances in availability of coverage and efficiency of delivery. Because all the private healthcare insurances have managed to do is use all of their massive "creativity" is figuring out how to screw people over, write in really tiny print (kinda like banks), and "creatively" cook their books.

I never said Private insurance was better. I never said All Private is better than All Public, or that gov employees are idiots and devoid of creativity... I spend more time saying, "I never said..." People want to distort and make shit up or draw the worst assumptions from simple comments so they can rant and bluster - fuck 'em.

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run. With so much more retail now being done online with the associated increase in shipping... there should be a windfall.

I think some of the for profit folks would say it's even worse if it's a gov employee running things because they don't have profit motive to move things along - no carrot, all stick. That's where my imagined Resolution for Dummies comes in :)

(now this comes after two people went to lenghts to explain the LEGAL constarints the PO operates under)

You have a lack of imagination, you embody the Can't Do spirit, which funny enough, is the hallmark of a lot of gov agencies. That's why I suggested entrepreneurs (does that word scare or anger you?).

Here's a list of some of the kinds of problem solvers that are out there:

They would love the challenge, they'd probably line up to "fix" the post office, and they would either go around or find a way to change the funding issues. Creative people find solutions, they don't stop at the first road block, they enjoy the challenge.

(and this comes after a number of explanations about the difference between incapability of action and illegality of action)

I do think competition is a great way to spur innovation. As we see almost every day on this board people think gov agencies are terrible, and poorly run in general. I think that's a fairly widely held belief too, whether it's right or wrong, it's still out there. ... More to the point for me, the creative people I see that speak to me are not in gov.

I never once blamed the PO. They've actually done some pretty innovative things recently. I tried to order their latest direct mail marketing kit... took 3 times before I got it. I use their nifty self-serve kiosk once a week. There's plenty of room for improvement, but I don't blame them - what's their motivation?

Meanwhile politicians argue, Medicare (which I take care of for my mom) is mind numbingly frustrating and backward and dull and evil - one of these days I will scan her monthly documents (6-8 pages, double sided text, for an aging senior - f*cksake) and post them so everyone can have their minds fried. So I guess I'm prejudice. ... I see gov agencies and I see the worst kind of problem solving.

1. No, Arpanet of course. Defense funding has had a hand in a number of off shoot innovations, but they are not primary to their goal.
2. Regulations, party gridlock, working with other people's money is not the same as working with your own, lack of a system that rewards and fosters innovation?

(now, this is after it was pointed out that government actually invented the structure of the internet and made its backbone available to the public)

I've just never read any articles about "Government Efficiency & Innovation."

I never said Private insurance was better. I never said All Private is better than All Public, or that gov employees are idiots and devoid of creativity...

(well, as a matter of fact you did repeat this part 'gov employees are idiots and devoid of creativity...' a number of different times and ways)

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Quote:I never said Private insurance was better. I never said All Private is better than All Public, or that gov employees are idiots and devoid of creativity... I spend more time saying, "I never said..." People want to distort and make shit up or draw the worst assumptions from simple comments so they can rant and bluster - fuck 'em.

PIZMO, maybe your positions didn't come out as you intended, or maybe there were things you didn't say that would have moderated your comments. In any case, I'll accept your word that's not what you intended to say, so I hope we can agree to agree on that point?

Quote:I never said Private insurance was better. I never said All Private is better than All Public, or that gov employees are idiots and devoid of creativity... I spend more time saying, "I never said..." People want to distort and make shit up or draw the worst assumptions from simple comments so they can rant and bluster - fuck 'em.

PIZMO, maybe your positions didn't come out as you intended, or maybe there were things you didn't say that would have moderated your comments. In any case, I'll accept your word that's not what you intended to say, so I hope we can agree to agree on that point?

Sure, we can agree. What's frustrating and a just a bit funny, is to see people try and tell me what I meant, or what I think, or the real funny one: who I am. "Right wing" is the most absurd comment I've seen considering how much I loathe the Right.

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Pizmo

I'm only too happy to discuss things reasonably. But when you throw random punches - government bad! profit motive the one and only good! - expect them back.

FWIW what ** I ** find really funny is when you post things and then post that you NEVER posted them! Aside from the fact that when you use a word like 'never' you out yourself on the hook for a very long time, I actually didn't have to go very far back to find those things you 'never' posted.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I see that there a serious problems with some parts of government, especially the parts that would feed us to corporations. The answer is to MAKE GOVERNMENT WORK FOR US by the power of the vote - to vote and keep voting till we get that government.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh, btw, I don't really expect you to reply with an admission that you actually did post those things you 'never' posted. But enough about you.

For anyone not you who can ask some really basic questions about the wonders of private enterprise, here are a couple of questions:

1) There is absolutely nothing to forbid FedEx or UPS from delivering documents. They do it all the time. Do you think they could deliver documents for under a dollar each and show the PO how it's done? And if they can do it better and tap into that market, why haven't they?

2) If private enterprise is so good at figuring out how to do things better, why is it that people can't afford health insurance and have to depend on Medicare?

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki:
1) There is absolutely nothing to forbid FedEx or UPS from delivering documents. They do it all the time. Do you think they could deliver documents for under a dollar each and show the PO how it's done? And if they can do it better and tap into that market, why haven't they?

Good question, though I don't know the particulars. Are they really free to post letters, or is there a twisted sort of "gentlemen's" agreement. I could see the discussion happening, where FedEx chatted about developing the letter developing system, but it'd be known that the PO does that job already. Don't even bother building the system.

But I don't know. Maybe these companies carried out some kind of feasibility study, about cost and possible profit of setting up a letter-delivery system. I'd like to see that.

Quote:2) If private enterprise is so good at figuring out how to do things better, why is it that people can't afford health insurance and have to depend on Medicare?

And why hasn't the corporat-ization of American over the past two decades not led to roaring success for anyone but the 1%? Hmm....

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Are they really free to post letters ..."

They can't deliver them to a mail box marked US Mail. Any other delivery point is OK. As for feasibility studies, I've read that there was one around but haven’t been able to track it down. A lot of people think it's out there somewhere, but no one has been able to link it.

My sense is that if either FedEx or UPS could compete and make a profit, they would. There's nothing stopping them.

There is something we'd lose with either company though, and that is that the USPS is "... legally obligated to serve all Americans, regardless of geography, at uniform price and quality", no matter how remote, no matter how far. WIKI You definitely wouldn't get that with either FedEx or UPS b/c you don't get that now.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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