The Buddha:"In one given overto sexual intercourse,the teaching's confusedand he practices wrongly: this is ignoble in him.Whoever once went alone,but then resortsto sexual intercourse — like a carriage out of control —is called vile in the world,a person run-of-the-mill.His earlier honor & dignity: lost.Seeing this,he should train himselfto abandon sexual intercourse.

Overcome by resolves, he broodslike a miserable wretch.Hearing the scorn of others, he's chagrined.He makes weapons,attacked by the words of others.This, for him, is a great entanglement. He sinks into lies.

They thought him wisewhen he committed himselfto the life alone,but now that he's givento sexual intercourse they declare him a fool.

Seeing these drawbacks, the sage here — before & after —stays firm in the life alone;doesn't resort to sexual intercourse;would train himselfin seclusion — this, for the noble ones, is supreme.He wouldn't, because of that,think himselfbetter than others:He's on the verge of Unbinding.

People enmeshedin sensual pleasures,envy him: free, a sageleading his lifeunconcerned for sensual pleasures — one who's crossed over the flood."

Or maybe like this?

"This body comes into being through sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse is to be abandoned. With regard to sexual intercourse, the Buddha declares the cutting off of the bridge."

"Monks, there are these four obscurations of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle. Which four?

"Clouds are an obscuration of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"Fog is an obscuration...

"Smoke and dust is an obscuration...

"Rahu, the king of the asuras,[1] is an obscuration of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"These are the four obscurations of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"In the same way, there are four obscurations of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle. Which four?

"There are some contemplatives and brahmans who drink alcohol and fermented liquor, who don't refrain from drinking alcohol and fermented liquor. This is the first obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"There are some contemplatives and brahmans who engage in sexual intercourse, who don't refrain from sexual intercourse. This is the second obscuration of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle.

"Illicit sexual behavior — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from illicit sexual behavior is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to rivalry & revenge.

Buddha said according to sravaka level do not respond neither correct monks who misbehaved.. just leave them alone, that is all...

Really? So where did he say this exactly? Let me answer for you: NOWHERE! Do you know what is the Patimokkha is? Look it up and learn a thing or two.

why it is So easy to criticize? well just idiots expose themselves thinking that they stand for virtue... in fact they stand for their own stupidity and ignorance... poor guys

Whereas you stand for wisdom and knowledge?

The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & lack of concern. In an unknowledgeable person, immersed in ignorance, wrong view arises. In one of wrong view, wrong resolve arises. In one of wrong resolve, wrong speech... In one of wrong speech, wrong action... In one of wrong action, wrong livelihood... In one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort... In one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness... In one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration arises.

gregkavarnos wrote:Sure, and I am sure that there have been many cases of psychotherapists having sexual relationships with their patients and the relationship working out just fine. Do you believe that there should not be a deontology for psychotherapists as well? Why should there be a set for one and not the other. Really, their roles are not so astoundingly different.

It think they are very different.

I will amend this post to say that in some traditions the role of a teacher can vary. So, in some traditions, cultures, it may resemble a psychotherapist, and in others, not at all.

People love to talk about sex. This thread has gone for 4 pages now. Sara & Matilda, get over it girls, he took a chance & he came unstuck. It doesn't matter how you sugar coat it, we've got a married man bonking a married woman. The 3rd precept has been broken. This is basic buddhism,the 5 precepts are something very new practitioners are introduced to early on on their path to enlightenment. Now don't you think that 4 pages is enough.

shaunc wrote:People love to talk about sex. This thread has gone for 4 pages now. Sara & Matilda, get over it girls, he took a chance & he came unstuck. It doesn't matter how you sugar coat it, we've got a married man bonking a married woman. The 3rd precept has been broken. This is basic buddhism,the 5 precepts are something very new practitioners are introduced to early on on their path to enlightenment. Now don't you think that 4 pages is enough.

That's an extremely rude comment.You don't have to agree in order to be polite.If you want to disagree with the views voiced by several people here, then that's fine, but the ammount of pages doesn't matter, it's a valid topic. There are plenty of other topics that have gone on for much, much longer.You are free to disagree.

Please practice Right Speech and refrain from personal attacks.

We can agree to disagree, and compassion for others is a valid Buddhist view.

In Gassho,

Sara H.

"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the EternalIT IS OUR CHOICEWe can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness, ORWe can turn around.It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

Matylda wrote:First people debates are pretty nihilistic, since they do not know what they are talking about if they claim they practice zen dharma. second why do you ask in the second person if rape is ok to me etc.? this just shows what kind of problem you have personally, nothing else. I was never Christian myself and this culture is completely foreign to me... As for the rape or any other crime there is police... and that is the end of discussion.. real zen master can cope with it and with prison... yes I knew teachers who were excessively sexual... no problem.. but in the West I advice anyone who is harmed, just visit police station... why not? If not, then why not??? is there any second and third reason? any harm is wrong, not only sexual.. but here we have obsession concerning sex, power abuse and some other pretty neurotic things... and I think there is much more in peoples brains then actual criticized activity...

Ideally such things should be reported right after they happen, but that is not always the case. Victims can feel threatened or ashamed and be afraid to come forward. There can be pressure to keep quiet and not rock the boat. This is one of the issues with the relationship between students and teachers -- the teacher is in a position of power which is why should be especially careful of their behavior. Being aware of how power operates in sexual relationships isn't being neurotic, it's being aware of the fact that power inequities mixed with sex can cause problems. There's nothing strange or new about that.

I asked you specifically what you thought about rape, because I wanted to know. I was trying to figure out where you were coming from and if there was some kind of misunderstanding on your part. The thread is a little complicated because there is more than one thing being discussed 1) is it ok for non celibate teachers to have sex with students, and are people's reaction to this based on Christian values, and then 2) What should be done about cases of rape and sexual harassment. The rape and sexual harassment came up, because in at least two of the scandals that I am aware of, those were the actual issues. I don't believe my wanting more information from you in anyway points to my having problems As I said, I am not Christian either. The concerns with sex and teachers isn't just a Christian thing.

Btw, how is a debate nihilistic? And since when does Zen actually say abusing students is ok? As far as I know the third precept is not excluded from Zen. Zen does not require all of it's teachers to be celibate monks, but there's a difference between being a non celibate teacher who has relationships with women outside the zen center and one who is sleeping with students. And there's a big difference between that and going so far as to sexually abuse students.

I know one teacher who is very tough.. he is crazy and very unusual.. harassing women of course if he hears something wrong from them, for example about men.. and he puts them right in hell of their own emotions which delude them to extreme... he is neither easy for men, but does not seem to have sex with them but what he really hates is all brain made distinction for man and woman... from this distinction come all problems..

I'm assuming you don't mean sexual harassment here. That's what is being discussed, sexual harassment, not correcting a student's mistakes.

Everyone moderates their behavior otherwise there would be utter chaos. really? I do not think so... already western psychology showed how it works.. people cannot really express themselves.. parents, school, church, society forbids all sort of free emotions and expression but supports all sort of suppression, so basically we are trained how to be good slaves of 'moral' society.. and society is not moral at all... produces weapons, kills people, makes wars, makes a lot of nonsense etc. etc. etc. human societies are completely corrupt, degenerate thing... harmful, stupid to extremes... and parents believe in these societies and teach children how to be good slaves, right?

It is possible to repress things in an unhealthy way, which is what you are suggesting here. However, that's different than saying we should have no laws and no values. If you believe we shouldn't kill people, then you are making a moral judgment. If you believe that rape is wrong, then that is another moral judgment. You believe war is wrong, and that is yet another moral judgment. You yourself have morals and values -- morals which I'm sure plenty of other people share and are in accord with the dharma as well.

And you think it applies to zen dharma??? that is funny greg it is really funny what you have said

anyway if you ask then you have one portion of it

from mahanibbanasutta "Ananda, when I am gone, let the higher penalty be imposed upon the bhikkhu Channa."

"But what, Lord, is the higher penalty?"

"The bhikkhu Channa, Ananda, may say what he will, but the bhikkhus should neither converse with him, nor exhort him, nor admonish him."

wow! that is higher penalty .. just do not talk to him... very well. Yes I say there are many confused and ill guided people by their opinions and emotions which have nothing to do with dharma.. and notice one thing.. zen does not deny the law of karma... and we are talking here about zen and you will find in the history of zen many strange behaving people, and sometimes the meaning became clear much later... I do not mean western zen...

since it does not deny the law of karma it means that every single zen master took full responsibility for his actions, even if he was going to fail.If we look deeper into all those scandals and issue brought up by Sara, all those opinions then zen in the wet is just a mockery and many idiots showed their disabilities... after all I ask why nobody did not go to police??? could you answer this?

shaunc wrote:People love to talk about sex. This thread has gone for 4 pages now. Sara & Matilda, get over it girls, he took a chance & he came unstuck. It doesn't matter how you sugar coat it, we've got a married man bonking a married woman. The 3rd precept has been broken. This is basic buddhism,the 5 precepts are something very new practitioners are introduced to early on on their path to enlightenment. Now don't you think that 4 pages is enough.

That's an extremely rude comment.You don't have to agree in order to be polite.If you want to disagree with the views voiced by several people here, then that's fine, but the ammount of pages doesn't matter, it's a valid topic. There are plenty of other topics that have gone on for much, much longer.You are free to disagree.

Please practice Right Speech and refrain from personal attacks.

We can agree to disagree, and compassion for others is a valid Buddhist view.

In Gassho,

Sara H.

You should not worry Sara it only shows what I write to the guys... bigotry, hypocrisy and so on, pretty dirty minds... or? Maybe moral??? who knows

Plenty of women do not go to police after a rape, even fewer for sexual abuse. If they do, they are routinely demeaned and subjected to derision and worse. Sometimes it just compounds the suffering. Like the recent gang rape case in India - everyone knew the police couldn't care less.

Sadly it appears to me that some peoples core beliefs, moral beliefs, those central belief systems held as the foundation upon which a person lives her life, can be surreptitiously altered with surprising ease.

Since we want more quotations for unlearned then one very interesting about sinners in buddhism, specially zen, and where they end up!

this part from great master Dogen, and his holy teachings of shobogenzo, the chapter on merit of becoming a monk.. Dogen gives at length teachings about precept violators

“The monk replied, ‘In recalling my own past lives, there was a time when I had become a prostitute. I dressed up in all sorts of clothes and told the age-old licentious stories. One day, I dressed up as a female monk, just as a joke. As a direct result of this, I became a female monk in Kashō Buddha’s time. After a while, I took to depending on my aristocratic demeanor and gave rise to pride and arrogance, thereby breaking monastic prohibitions as well as Precepts. Because of the defilement from breaking monastic prohibitions and Precepts, I fell into a hellish state where I suffered the consequences of my various defiling acts. After I had suffered these consequences, I met Shakyamuni Buddha and left home life behind, ultimately obtaining the six spiritual abilities and realizing arhathood. Due to this, I have come to know that if we leave home life behind and take the monastic Precepts, even though we later break Precepts, we willrealize arhathood because of the karmic* effect of the Precepts. If I had merely done bad things, without having received any effects from the Precepts, I would not have realized the Way. In times long past, I had fallen into hellish states generation after generation, getting out of some hell only to become a wicked person. When that wicked person died, again a hell was entered and nothing whatever had been gained. Now because of this, I have come to realize that if someone leaves home to be a monastic and takes the Precepts, even though that person breaks the Precepts, because of having taken them, that person willobtain the fruits of the Way.’

I think one of the issues that Greg hit on here is the lack of any clear boundary which would be defined by deontology, however I am incline to agree with Yudron that I personally do not see the Lama/student relationship in that way, nor do I think it would be desirable for it to go in that direction.

we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

justsit wrote:Plenty of women do not go to police after a rape, even fewer for sexual abuse. If they do, they are routinely demeaned and subjected to derision and worse. Sometimes it just compounds the suffering. Like the recent gang rape case in India - everyone knew the police couldn't care less.

Hello we are writing here about Sex Taboo's & applying Christianized thinking in Western Zen not about Indian issues... is it the case in the West that wemen cannot report to police?

greentara wrote:Sadly it appears to me that some peoples core beliefs, moral beliefs, those central belief systems held as the foundation upon which a person lives her life, can be surreptitiously altered with surprising ease.

Nobody forbids nobody to live ones life in accordance to ones own core beliefs, moral beliefs, those central belief systems held as the foundation, really not... the only issue here is applying Christianized thinking in Western Zen look up you will see the title of the thread... if one needs core beliefs, moral beliefs etc. should simply keep away from zen, seriously.. zen is about loosing all these.

In its country of origin Zen is quite socially conservative, although Zen priests are allowed to marry. But I don't think this has anything to do with 'Christianized zen'. What it's really about is rationalising whatever behaviour you enjoy without feeling guilty about it. 'Whatever turns you on', as the saying went, back in 1968, for those old enough to remember it.

There is a very worthwhile essay by Alan Watts called Beat Zen, Square Zen and Zen. He discusses the contrasts between 'beat Zen', as understood by Keroauc and the other 'beats' who had a very free-wheeling attitude; 'square Zen', which is the severe and highly disciplined institutional Zen of Japan; and Zen itself, from his own unique perspective. Worth reading. A noteworthy passage I have often quoted previously:

the Westerner who is attracted by Zen and who would understand it deeply must have one indispensable qualification: he must understand his own culture so thoroughly that he is no longer swayed by its premises unconsciously. He must really have come to terms with the Lord God Jehovah and with his Hebrew-Christian conscience so that he can take it or leave it without fear or rebellion.

Wise words.

Sometimes spirituality is a liberation, and sometimes it's an alibi ~ David Brazier

Victims can feel threatened or ashamed and be afraid to come forward. There can be pressure to keep quiet and not rock the boat.

So about whom are we talking here? about victims or supposedly zen practitioners? if it is latter case then give me a break.. pressure, what pressure? who can beliefe in such things? With old roshi is problem of rape? if he would do it to me I would rape him as well, we could compete who is tougher then... if a victim becomes zen practitioner then would only suffer... i know many cases like this.

This is one of the issues with the relationship between students and teachers -- the teacher is in a position of power which is why should be especially careful of their behavior.

careful with what? do not touch me, oh! do not beat me, oh! i am a victim, oh! I want to grow spiritually, oh! you know this is all nonsense in zen... due to his power master can use it freely to kill or give life. he is an emperor of the whole universe.. what kind of ZEN teachers do you want in the WEST? just say i will try to bring one from Japan, of course if i find one... many can die from laughter before arriving in the West..

Being aware of how power operates in sexual relationships isn't being neurotic, it's being aware of the fact that power inequities mixed with sex can cause problems. There's nothing strange or new about that.

wow discovery! but you have forgotten one thing.. in sex both parties have POWER operating.. and we women can put you poor guys including even monks or masters in a very miserable position, do you know??? I have seen it many times... both among Japanese and among Tibetans..

I asked you specifically what you thought about rape, because I wanted to know. I was trying to figure out where you were coming from and if there was some kind of misunderstanding on your part. The thread is a little complicated because there is more than one thing being discussed 1) is it ok for non celibate teachers to have sex with students,

well i know even celibate teachers having sex... sorry not with me, but I know them.. not with students in Asia mostly they do not have lay students, or maybe sometimes.. but anyway they get some 'friends' in skirts...

exception is Taiwan and Maleysia.. Tibetan lamas had a lot of sex, so now there is a big opposition of husbands

What should be done about cases of rape and sexual harassment. The rape and sexual harassment came up, because in at least two of the scandals that I am aware of, those were the actual issues. I don't believe my wanting more information from you in anyway points to my having problems

What, go to police...

Btw, how is a debate nihilistic? And since when does Zen actually say abusing students is ok? As far as I know the third precept is not excluded from Zen. Zen does not require all of it's teachers to be celibate monks, but there's a difference between being a non celibate teacher who has relationships with women outside the zen center and one who is sleeping with students. And there's a big difference between that and going so far as to sexually abuse students.

Actually I can tell you as for zen anything is ok for an enlightened master... he may even kill you if it will be beneficial for you... killing, stealing, sex etc. are ok in hands of genuine bodhisattva, who is zen master. Even 2nd master in China, Eka Daishi was an alcoholic and sexoholic by modern standards. He lost his arm in a drunken fight with some mugs in a liquor shop...

I'm assuming you don't mean sexual harassment here. That's what is being discussed, sexual harassment, not correcting a student's mistakes.

why not, of course yes.. he would boil brains of those poor women. Attack was almost immediate, and he put in hell poor 'victims'... he was so rude! but wonderful wanted so much to liberate them from fixation of their own injuries and I,me obsession...

It is possible to repress things in an unhealthy way, which is what you are suggesting here. However, that's different than saying we should have no laws and no values. If you believe we shouldn't kill people, then you are making a moral judgment. If you believe that rape is wrong, then that is another moral judgment. You believe war is wrong, and that is yet another moral judgment. You yourself have morals and values -- morals which I'm sure plenty of other people share and are in accord with the dharma as well.

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Our laws and values are not any laws and values in fact... they are perfect means for slavery... to listen to demons that is all my comment... the only true moral is genuine dharma, dharma seals, no-I, selflesness etc. and of course law of karma.. those are very basics... if morals stem from it then it is genuine, if not then it is a fake moral, very very dependent, conditioned and subject to impermanence.. this is what society offers it is why it gets so quickly corrupt... and I only wonder when I see when buddhists in the West so obsessively stick to it.... so sad.