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again....on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand.

men have looked at funny odd things in the night sky for millions of years.

But it always turns out to be just nothing...but even a little bit of uncertainty in the mind of an amateur can be more than enough to feed an active imagination.

A falling star becomes a angel sent from heaven to earth...

A weather balloon becomes a visitor from Mars.

A reflection in a car window becomes absolute proof of extraterrestrials...

But is that any real proof?....no.There has never been even the slightest offering of real proof.

All the UFO nuts have are stories...and fuzz photos.

Its the same for the nuts that believe in Bigfoot....(great stories and fuzzy photos)

and its the same for the nuts that believe in the Loch Ness monster ....

all they ever got is some great stories to tell around the campfire while you sip peppermint schnapps.....and fuzzy photos...

We are not talking about the obvious exaggerations which consist of 80% or more of "sightings." With all that out of the way, I would like to limit this discussion on the evidences which are truly hard to discern (if indeed you have investigated any of that). I personally would like to eliminate ***ertions based solely on subjective opinion, and limit the discussion to evidences and ideas that the experts on the subject are still debating about.

Don't you think that the statement "on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand" is a bit exaggerative? If you really believe this, can you prove it by evidence, since this is your ***ertion? Can you go out some night and take some pictures of things you see that you don't understand and post them? This should be relatively easy for you, since "on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand". Are you willing to admit this statement is exaggerative, or can you prove it with evidence?TD

Don't you think that the statement "on any given night the average person can go out at night, look up at the stars, and see things they just don't understand" is a bit exaggerative?

Nope its a fact...

On any given night you can walk outside with your child, and sooner or later that child will ask you some questions that you simply don't know the answer for.

you glance up and see a light moving across the sky.....what is it...
a satellite?
a jet?
a weather balloon?
I dont know...its just a light in the sky that moves.

To me its a mystery that I don't understand, but to others its 100% proof that this world is being visited by men from mars...

100s years ago men looked up at the stars and noticed that while most stars stayed in their locations, some stars moved...and some stars turned around and moved backwards?...and some stars fell out of where they were hanging?

To come up with answers we find books and all sorts of stories about different reasons why such things happened.

My point is that on any night it is normal to see things in the night sky that might cause you to stop and ask, "What is that?".....but that just because we might see something that we cant answer about right away it is no reason to go off all crazy and invent stories of men from mars, or angels falling from heaven.

Btw

Billy Cooper, who was murdered, worked for naval intelligence for I think 18 years. He saw a craft fly into the ocean waters when he was on a ship. He was ordered never to tell anyone. Read his book:

BEHOLD A PALE HORSE.

This book is the number 1 stolen book from book stores in New York city.

BTW, this book is a "conspiracy theory." I borrowed (and read 1/2) that book some years ago. I didn't finish it because I just got tired of seeing the same pattern over and over - every piece of evidence presented was presented in such a way as to confirm his conspiracy theory. Most of the evidence presented was presented out of context, such that you had no way of understanding what the evidence was about, what its original purpose was. All you had for your understanding was his conspiracy. This of course is my personal opinion about it. I have also read some stuff by Friedman, and it appears to me he leans toward the extraterrestrial theory, which makes me skeptical of what he writes.

An example of evidences taken out of context: I saw a video of a Russian military unit investigating a "crashed UFO." The audio was supposedly translated Russian-English, and there was narrative added. The video included an authentic-looking disc that had fallen from the sky and was buried approximately 1/2 of it in the ground at the edge of a forest. The appearance of the disc was much like the appearance of a piece of aircraft, except it appeared perfectly round at the edge, approx. 15' dia (estimated from the size of the investigators), and approx. 6' thick. But who knows what the original context was? Was the disc a piece of radar equipment that fell off a Russian airplane? Was the film totally fabricated and staged with actors and props? Who can tell?

The point is, you cannot just accept whatever evidence is being presented, and believe the story being told about it. Case in point is the movie "The Fourth Kind" (2009). The "original footage" was presented as film that was shot back in the '60s as original evidence of the story being told; but this was a lie. The "original footage" was actually "original footage" shot by the film crew of the movie in 2009. They even created fraudulent evidence on the web to promote the movie as a real documentary (they were not actually trying to purport that extraterrestrials are real, although I'm sure they had in mind that some people would believe their fraudulent evidence and take it as truth).

So what I am interested in at the moment, does anyone have links to materials that present evidence in an objective manner, such as the presentation of the Arizona Lights incident presented in this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DitjDgxn0k
I am tired of weeding through the mountains of junk posted on youtube to try to find something legitimate. I am looking for presentations that are objective like this, and not reports telling a fabricated story.
TD

The phrase "conspiracy theory" means nothing to me. It is just a label. Cooper presents the data and the facts that he personally witnessed and read while a Naval Intelligence Agent.

I do not dialogue with people who have no right to have an opinion about something (not referring to you), because they have not yet examined the data and evidence. They just make a priori conclusions prior to examination. This is reflective of mind control and a mental prison --when they do not think outside the little box (or paradigm/worldview) they have manufactured for themselves. I don't have time for this. I deal with data and facts.

There have been projects specifically created to "discredit" the UFO phenomenon, like Project Snowball. In other words, there are two agendas at work I believe: one to promote the phenomenon, and one to "discredit" it.

Just as there have been projects for debunking the UFO phenomenon, there also were projects supporting the idea. Project Sign people supported the idea of extraterrestrials, but then Project Grudge had a purpose to debunk it. Project Blue Book went through several generations of leadership, some leaning toward, some against, and some were more objective.

It all has to do with the story that is told when presenting the evidence. In a courtroom, evidence is presented which is all out of its original context (it being in the courtroom). If evidence was presented with no story, then no verdict could be made, unless a story was created to formulate a verdict. It is the task of the jury to hear the story (i.e. both from the prosecutor and from the defender) and discern whose story is more believable based on the evidence presented. This is how verdicts are reached.

Just because a verdict is reached and 12 people have agreed on it, doesn't mean the verdict is the absolute truth. But it is truth enough for the court and the judge to affect someone's life for a long time (or not affect it).

I was discussing once about the Catholic bishop who had quoted to a newspaper that he believed in extraterrestrials. I believe he said something about we should be friendly to them if they come. Then I said, "Well, I suppose that if some demons showed up that looked like frogs (Rev. 16:13), that he would put out his hand and say 'Welcome alien brothers, what do you have to say?'"TD

I have just read most comments here. I don't get it. Who here is really supporting UFOs? It seems to me that what has been expressed so far is that it is demonic and empirically unreliable. If it is demonic, the metaphysical aspects of observation would be one of perception of a spiritual event. I can believe Angels and Demons exist, but I don't think they are going to be put into a test-tube and disected.

To me, a presentation of an apparation can be caused by several things, and I will include UFO encounters rather than sightings. Firstly, it could be someone just ate at a restaurant that Adam Richman visited and consumed the food challenge. I wonder if eating the "Four Horseman Challenge" in San Antonio, TX would seriously alter one's perception after suffering over the jalapeno, serrano, habanero and naga bhut jolokia chile peppers.

Secondly, it could be psychological. Some people are looking for it, openly imagining it, and a dream state with such intensity may just seem real to them. Ever been in a deep dream where you felt it was almost real? Well, it was real... it was a real live experience of dreaming.

Thirdly, I would have to say demonic. However, demonic activity has a devious intent. To draw people away from God is the foremost reason. If there is a specific message within UFO encounters, I would have to say it would draw people away from God. If we ***ume there are E.T.s out there, the technology of travel would increase dependency on science with a religious fever pitch. If a US missile, HTV2 can reach a whopping Mach 20 speed roughly 13,000 mph, how would one sustain a travel speed of even greater and reliable intensity to make a UFO possible? I do not think "light" can push matter, but it sure feels good on the face when at the pool.

How a Catholic Bishop can believe in UFOs is beyond my comprehension... perhaps he needs to start taking his medication and laying off the burritos.

I have just read most comments here. I don't get it. Who here is really supporting UFOs?

<snip>

How a Catholic Bishop can believe in UFOs is beyond my comprehension... perhaps he needs to start taking his medication and laying off the burritos.

When you ask "who is supporting UFOs" your question is somewhat vague. Are you asking who supports the idea that UFOs are a physical phenomenon vs a spiritual or imaginary? Or that it may be material but imaginary interpretation of it? When you ask a loaded question like this, please be clear about what you're asking.

If you want my take on it, you can read my earlier post. I still have questions about the validity of what people claim they see in addition to their interpretation of it.

I dont actually believe that people really 'see" things,
Well, except for things that can be explained.

What i mean is that i dont thing people are seeing demons, or spirits.

People may see lights in the sky...but thats fine, there is a lot of rock up there to see.

However for the most part, I believe that mostly what is going on are fake sightings..invented to sound correct....but just invented all the same.

a few people see falling stars...or make a mistake at what they see....
But in the end..no one stands up and holds something up in their hands as real solid proof and says, "This fell off a UFO from another world"

This is a fascinating topic to me because I happen to have an interest in space/astronomy.

Before I go into my thoughts on UFOs, I want to begin by stating (as an Evangelical Christian Believer saved by the blood of Christ) that contrary to what many others believe, I do not subscribe to the belief that other life possibly existing on another planet is a contradiction to what scripture teaches. Quite frankly, from what I have found in my studies, the scripture is silent about life on any other planet except this one. But, that does not mean that it doesn't exist. On the flip side, that silence does not mean that there is life on another planet either. To the plain point, we simply do not know and may never know this side of heaven and that might just be how God wanted it.

Now, having said that, I also want to be very clear about my belief that In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth. (Genesis 1:1) The "heavens" in this context (and Hebrew translation of Genesis 1:1) meaning the "cosmos"...i.e., "space". Therefore, if there IS life on another planet, God is also the God of that life as well. Evolutionists would like us to believe that the discovery of life on another planet would automatically void the teaching of the scripture. Nothing could be further from the truth. God's said in Isaiah 45:12
It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts. God also said in Genesis 1:16
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.. So, if there is life on another planet, God created that life also and is Lord over it just as he is Lord over us on Earth.

Now (rambling over). What are UFOs? Quite simple. We don't know. I will say this, I don't believe they are "fake" (at least not all of them). But the reality is, nobody (at least as far as we know) really knows what a "UFO" really is. After all, "UFO" stands for "Unidentified Flying Object". If we knew they were alien spacecraft, they would no longer be called "UFOs". But, to this day, they are still a mystery. All we can do is speculate....and speculate I will also. I believe (as others have said on this thread) that they are demonic in nature. Many reasons why this is a reasonable conclusion that I will not speak long windedly on. However, I will share with you a youtube channel that I ran across by accident recently that really made me more certain of it.

In the following youtube channel, you will see a very interesting individual who seems to have a theme within his life. That theme being, he appears obsessed with paranormal activity (spiritism) and UFOlogy. Coincidence? I tend to think not.

I got the shivers the first time I browsed through it. This channel made me all the more convinced that UFOs are demonic in nature. Here is a guy who tinkers with spiritism and the results included is UFO activity.

Woe, God knows for sure and tdidymas may have been absent for some time now but hope his paranormal interest has taken on new endeavors.

I like the approach here – alot! I’m with you as far a possible proof of the above occurring with the exception of a last worst-case possibility.

Originally Posted by pilgrim1411

I do believe the UFO phenomena is demonic.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont actually believe that people really 'see" things,
Well, except for things that can be explained.

What i mean is that i dont thing people are seeing demons, or spirits.

Originally Posted by reality10

This channel made me all the more convinced that UFOs are demonic in nature. Here is a guy who tinkers with spiritism and the results included is UFO activity.

Check it out for yourselves and give me your thoughts.

I think there is both a pro & con to this. By that I mean from scripture’s outlook is in support of Alan’s refusals outside of this distant “evidence”.

There is so much dedicated for us to not being deceived by any man. You know the story on evidence from time to time today that an American court will not allow digital anything visually as evidence, only film. Extreme levels of craft have played into our lives like ducks on-a-pond, money being the bench-rest.

I still believe the Lord cares for the flock, where is written that those “signs” (Luke 21:25) will occur in perplexing proportions against God’s people? The Church is given escape by prayer:

“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:34-36)

Just because we are His, it doesn’t exclude us from battles along the way, which are also His. But to re-inspect the record what happened to the Lord as He was indeed “taken” (Mt 4:8). If we want a defense for this not occurring at any given time under the permission of God the Father, nor think it’s possibility of being a physical transport, I would think a little elusive, it otherwise remains pretty much an impossibility.

Goodness me, if he can change himself into an "angel of light" (II Corinthians 11:14) and have another "seven sons of Sceva" (Acts 19) physical encouter with a demon, why such a stretch for someting in this realm?

You obviously have never studied the primary sources. You can make ***ertions all day. There have been over 2,000 Bigfoot sightings in North America, but zero Spiderman sightings. If they are in the same category (non-existent), than the evidence for Bigfoot would be exactly identical with that of Spiderman.

With regard to UFO's, you are not even qualified to have an educated opinion because you don't have enough information. You haven't studied the data.

You obviously have never studied the primary sources. You can make ***ertions all day. There have been over 2,000 Bigfoot sightings in North America, but zero Spiderman sightings. If they are in the same category (non-existent), than the evidence for Bigfoot would be exactly identical with that of Spiderman.

With regard to UFO's, you are not even qualified to have an educated opinion because you don't have enough information. You haven't studied the data.

Pilgrim, Thats silly....

Every year more people claim to be Jesus Christ compared to the number of people that claim to be Hitler.
|But that does not prove squat!.......

The only truth is this:
That all UFO so-called "proof" as well as the so-called BigFoot "proof", is all based on the same one thing in common....They are both based on fuzzy photos and campfire stories and nothing else!

One thing to keep in mind right now is - That we now live in an age where every person on the earth has on their person a Hi-def camera.
The modern cell phone has grown so popular that its now a standard part of every humans life in most all the parts of the world.

And with this, we have seen how many High-def cell phone photos of UFOs?

ZERO?

This is also truewith other things like "Bigfoot"
back in the day where the only camers were the ones with film we would see people showing the media photos that showed fuzzy shotsof Bigfoot, or monsters in lakes, or UFOs in the sky.

But we dont see anyone claiming to have a photo taken by a modern cell phone cameras of the same things anymore.
And do you know why?

No one knows yet how to fake them easy.
People have tried, but because everything you do on a computer or on a camera tends to leave a tel-tail footprint, we just dont see the many faked photos anymore like we used to back in the 60s and 70s

a person can believe in a fancy dream so much that it becomes real to them, and can have an ability to effect their hearts.

Now I dont believe for a moment that anyone actually "sees" something in the sky that is a UFO or a demon.
But, you can see things that you dont understand in the night sky and this can lead you to come up with all kinds of reasons for the unexplained .

Thousands of years ago men understood that some stars would back up and travel the wrong way in the sky....they also saw every night that some stars fell down.
This knowledge of the basic facts had no explanation, and to come up with a reason some stars moved in the wrong direction and others fell to the ground we ended up with a whole Mythology around the stars that soon became a whole new religion that is still around to this very day.

So seeing things you dont understand can become a way to build a religion...and that means there can be a connection between UFOs and a person faith life...

But aside from this, I dont believe for even a second that Satan is flying around in the sky with a flashlight making weird UFO sounds to fool people.

I love what i have written here in this post.
it sums up the totality of what i think of the UFO issue.

You obviously have never studied the primary sources. You can make ***ertions all day. There have been over 2,000 Bigfoot sightings in North America, but zero Spiderman sightings. If they are in the same category (non-existent), than the evidence for Bigfoot would be exactly identical with that of Spiderman.

With regard to UFO's, you are not even qualified to have an educated opinion because you don't have enough information. You haven't studied the data.

I have looked at what is there to be found.
If you have one single case you think is 'real" then show it!

You got a single photo that is proven to be a space ship UFO or not?

Here is the truth on all this stuff.
Back when I was a kid in the 70s there were lots of photos and stories about UFO and Lake monsters.
But that was also back when not everyone had high quality cameras.

That was back when a short 8mm movie about Bigfoot would get people all excited....

But times have changed!

We now live in a worls where almost every person on earth has on them at all times a very high quality camera.
We also live in a time when because of the internet, many people who are experts from all parts of the earth can put to the test any video or photo that someone might say is of a UFO>

and the result?

The result is that photos of UFOs have dropped off the radar....
You never see any new videos of what people claim is a sea monster, or Bigfoot, or a UFO anymore.

You dont see any updated Photos or videos because it has become way too easy for people to put such things to the test and show that are FAKE!