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Enough is enough

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Enough of this "in Bilic we trust" bullshit. He rode his luck last season with some fluke results whick tended to make many of you overlook some wake up call games in the same season, not least our 1-4 reverse at home to Swansea. Our summer spending has proved woeful, lost probably a player in Tomkins who could have, as a squad player slotted into the RB positiin, January not much better, indeed lost probably our most talented player since those dark days when we mysteriously ended up with two Argentinan internationals. Enough of blaming players. Its the managers job to pick, motivate and prime them. Then again, its the owners job to back the manager with the players he wants, but as we all know, Bilic was never first choice in the first place. Wasn't even second come to that. Was he even third choice? So, let's look ahead. For sure, numerous players need to go, shouldn't even have been there in the first place. Then we have the manager who supposedly recommended these players, irrespective of the fact that these werent the positions that needed addressing. Then we have owners who.....but thats another thread

Lacklustre West Ham again. We are not improving and Bilic has to share some of the blame for this. Defence is all over the place and Cresswell was so poor and Kouyate doesn't like being Right Back. Fonte doesn't bring a lot to the game either. Bilic being a former defender should surely have a plan and proper preparation for these games. He knows how Bournemouth are going to play and how we can counteract it. We looked all at sea. The midfield is being overrun. The pedestrian pace is easy to defend against and Antonio and Lanzini excepted today, we were pants. Leicester are going to try and do the same thing to us next week and catch us on the break. I am not sure where the next win points are coming from. It is awful.

Westham should have pushed on from last year ,there was the nucleus of a very good side in place, but this season has proved anything but, the team has gone backwards in performances and results. Payet highlighted in the media recently, he was bored with playing for Slaven Bilic’s team in the lower half of the Premier League table. “I had no desire to play in the lower reaches of the Premier League,” he said. “The defensive system that we put in place did not give me any pleasure. With a 5-4-1 in front of our box, I could have had all the freedom in the world, so it’s difficult for me to explain. You could say that I was pissed off, yes. I worked hard in every game without taking any pleasure.”.He could see staying at Westham wasn’t going toimprove things for him because Bilic hasn’t got what it takes to make Westham top six,he lacks the qualities of a top manager.Too many times I have seen bad decisions repeatedly being made in areas , team set up wrong against certain oppostion,formation questionable when considering the opposition that teams have exploited,team selection(fielding players out of position) The disasterous transfer window in the summer is where it started to go wrong for Bilic , Westham are a side now that is oversupplied in a number of positions and understrength in others (especially RB).Maybe introducing too many players too soon this season has proved his undoing ,as Di Canio found out managing Sunderland , as a result the fast tempo ,free flowing football that we have seen the team play has suffered,to the point where the football becomes so slow and sedentry ,the team has looked so disjointed and out of sorts in some games, its no fun watching being a hammers supporter.Bilic has had long enough to prove what he is about,and the time is near for him to be replaced next season for a proven experienced manager that has some pedigree of winning things and has the tactical nous to match,this for me,is the most important addition Westham could make in the summer .Such managers are out there ,and could be attracted if they were guaranteed decent funding so they could immediately print their mark on the team

I've said it before that the man seems to be made of Teflon, or at least the way some on here go on you'd think he was. The big fact that keeps on being overlooked is that having capitulated on 5 occasions at home this term, we've still not won at home against any side that are currently above us.
As he is now nearing the end of his second term in charge it's his squad and his alone and there can be no excuses for the ineptitude that we have frequently shown.
As for whether he was 3rd choice, I believe he was about 4th or even 5th and he certainly wouldn't have been my choice.
Having said that, he is currently the only manager we have and is here it seems for the foreseeable future so we must, albeit cautiously, give him our support.
However, come May I would want to see a clear out of players and some signings of genuine quality and potential, but in view of how the team appears to have lost it's way, I now fear that will only come with a change of Manager.

thats the thing isnt it? the team has been up and down all season but were next to stoke and southampton in mid table and thats where our squad should be. no manager is gonna come and turn this squad into top 4 or even 6. mid table means you win some you lose some. if we were bottom 3 id agree with the above but were not.

You hit the nail on the head, albeit inadvertently when you state that no manager is going to to turn "THIS SQUAD" into a top 6 side. And that's the whole point to me.
As I said in my previous post, with over two thirds of his second season in charge, this is Bilic's squad and as a result, he must shoulder a large slice of the blame for the complete ineptitude which has far too often been shown on the field throughout the season.
I agree that there's little point in sacking him at this stage of the season,. But there has to be a major review of things starting now and strategies have to be put in place if we are to progress.
Yes, were in 11th place, but as has been stated on more than one occasion, that's a statistic and there are lies, damn lies etc, etc.
After last season, it was not unreasonable for the expectation to be that we would consolidate our position and challenge for a European place, but at no point have we looked like doing that.
Our home form has been shocking with a goal difference at home of minus 9 and only Swansea and Sunderland have a worse defensive record than us at home and of the 18 points we've won at home only 2 have been gained against a team placed above us.
That record is damnable and must be addressed as a matter of the utmost urgency.

unfortunately the league table never lies mate. 11th is 11th and you can't look at it any different. i defended allardyce based on league position over his football and i do the same here. you say its bilic's squad, yes it is, but its still his squad based on what he's been allowed to buy no? therefore if guardiola had taken over and only been given the same funds to spend….who else would he have bought in that would make us better than mid table? i look at the picture overall and don't pick matches that we throw away or lose silly goals to to then come out and say its all rubbish and bilic out etc. it is what it is. its 11th place.

If you are a slave to that league position without looking at the facts behind it then you are at best blinkered and at worst deluded. The fact remains that performances have been sub-standard for most of this season and the results bear that out. 11th place? I'd be happy to accept an 11th place finish if we'd finished anywhere below that last year. I'm not naive enough to think that we are going to become a regular top 6 side in the near future, we are who we are. But after last season it is not unreasonable to have expected us to be in the position of WBA at this point or for us to have developed a set method in order to operate as a solid unit. We haven't, and performances such as those against Watford, Southampton & Boro' at home, the complete surrenders against Arsenal and Man City (twice) are what should be a major concern.
Continue to point at 11th place if you wish, but it's a stat that cannot hide the cold hard facts which are that we have not progressed an inch this term and never will with this group of players no matter who the Manager is.
At no point have I called for him to be sacked, but I do think that his position will be vulnerable at the end of the season.
You say you look at the picture overall. Ok, so look at the goal difference and explain that, look at the way we have fallen apart in certain games and explain that too.
As long as he is the West Ham manager I will support Bilic, but unlike you I will state facts as they stand and not what I'd like them to be.
So again I say we have not progressed and have actually taken a step or two backwards this term and that needs to be addressed if the club's hierarchy are true to their word in their stated ambition for the future.

thing is you can call people who disagree deluded or whatever its not going to give ur argument any more credit. u seem to think football is about the points you dont get but its the points you do. for every watford loss theres a southampton win or swansea win. no one can progress every year without big investment. especially when u overachieve in the year before. and to conclude the big 'fact' is of course we are 11th. no? or will u argue league position is opinion?

Success in football is as much about points dropped as it is about points gained. That's always been the case and will never change.
My biggest issue is the extremely poor performances that have become a feature of this season, the total ineptitude at times which has cost us dearly in many games. as for your reference to the 11th place, no it's not an opinion but it's a handy stat to hide behind. My instinct is that Bilic will not try to hide behind it and will face up to the fact that performances have been way below standard this term and that all connected with the club were not being unreasonable in expecting better. No, you can't progress every year, but if you are looking to build for the future you must as a bare minimum consolidate year on year, and we have not done that which is why I say that a full review of club strategy moving forward is what's needed with successes built upon and failings acknowledged with measures being put in place to eradicate them.
What we don't need is knee jerk reactions and P45s being issued here there and everywhere.
However satisfied you me or anyone else may or may not be with 11th place, it's not about that. It's about overall performance in the transfer market, the structure of management, the training ground and ultimately on the field of play that counts.

Sorry but this is drivel. If success is gauged upon improvement on the year before then this year we should finish 6th, at the very least, so by you're own theory we should be in the top 6 in the near future. That also means we will win the league in 5 years time. But isn't everyone else in the same boat, aren't they all trying to improve on last year? You seem to talk like West Ham are the only team in the league and it doesn't matter what anyone else does. Why should we just go down and beat Bournemouth? What god given right do we have? Are we Spurs fans now? iIf you're right about the owners and squad who is going to come to us that has a better CV than Bilic? I think football as a sport is totally f***** if I'm honest. The footballers have become slaves to money and the fans slaves to expectation. Leicester are the example of how bizarre football has become. Whole careers are being defined in a few seasons, soon it will be months and eventually a few games. Crap players moving to China for £100,000s a week wages. It has to implode soon. Jamie Vardy the one hit wonder turning down Arsenal, now teetering over relagation!!

Don't be stupid. it's not "drivel" to expect us to consolidate our position, and progress is not purely about league position. To me, I judge "progress" by development of a solid method in order to gain improvement and consistency in performance and improvement to the squad and development of existing players. Improvement in league position etc will follow from there.
Strategy is a long term project and can't be rushed, but in order to progress in the long term you must have a sound method, and all too often this season we have been doing things it seems "off the cuff".
No, we do not have a "god given right" to beat Bournemouth or anyone, but our home record is appalling and is for the most part the product of that.
If the right deal and strategy is put in place i am confident we could find a better manager than Bilic in the long term, but having said that, I am not for sacking him, or at least not in the immediate future. But I still maintain that a full review of what has happened this term must take place and that he must face up to his own failings and show how he intends to eradicate them from hereon.
Yes, top level football is totally f****d and has been for a long time. Agents with their greed, players and managers with their noses so far in the trough that they're almost drowning in money, and ignorant, blinkered, one eyed, know nothing so called "fans".
Football was once a sport where the fans were knowledgeable and fair minded whilst still remaining partisan.
Now, there's so much crap surrounding the game, accentuated by the broadcasters, that I don't enjoy attending top level games anymore.
However, as a West Ham fan for well over 50 years I do still care what happens to the team, and there fore, to return to the main point, we need to review this seasons failings and ensure that we are back on track next term so we can hit the ground running in August no matter who the manager is by then.

So when Leicester won the league with hardly any improvement to the squad that was in the relegation places all the season before, and played a defensive hit on the break, low possession football tactic, as a Leicester fan I take it you wouldn't have celebrated? I can imagine your missus/partner saying "Go on love go and celebrate with the rest of them". You replying, "No the squad has not improved on last year, and the football has been dire at times, winning leagues and positions are no the only thing that matters." Very honourable, but it's just your opinion of what matters to you. I'd say 99.9% of West Ham fans would take some glory for just 10 mins over long term development strategies. Unfortunately we live in an instant world, where a long term strategy is about 10 games. Give Bilic players of quality and we will do better. He's trying to get his best players join the pitch at all times, something your mate Allardyce did. He obviously doesn't trust the ones sitting in wait. if that means shoe-horning players into position he'll do it. We may get lucky again in the summer as we did with the unknowns of Lansing Payet and Antonio the season before? You never know.

To quote Leicester's title win is ridiculous. That was the rarest of one offs that we are ever likely to see in Football and if the game is played for the next 150 years I doubt that it will ever happen again. If you're going to debate things seriously then you really should refrain from talking such utter b*****ks as that.
Looking at the records, I also see that when we were promoted under Billy Bonds in 1991 our most common scorline that season was 1-0 and we were also the third lowest goalscorers away from home. Was it enthralling, exciting, "entertaining"? No way was it, but there were no complaints from me as at the end of the season we were promoted as runners-up.
Something I've always said going back many years is that it doesn't matter how you play the game, no matter how people perceive you to be, if you win a title then the ends justify the means.
The Leeds side of the late 60's and 70's proved that as did Arsenal's double winners in '71 and George Graham's title winners in 89 & 91 where percentage football was the name of the game, and what about Mourinho's teams, at Chelsea in particular? 3 league titles speak for themselves.
But, when you look at the side this term, the team that Slaven built, not only have we failed to win at home against any team currently placed above us, but we have also conceded the third highest number of goals at home with only Sunderland and Swansea conceding more, we've also conceded 3 or more goals on no less than 10 occasions in all competitions and have capitulated at home on 5 occasions.
Whether you like it or not, that represents a significant step backwards from last season and way below what were reasonable expectations in August.
Like I say, ends justify means, and all too often this term the ends have been way below standard.
As for "trying to get his best players on the pitch at all times", it's not about individuals (his best players) it's about method. I've said it before on here that I was taught over 40 years ago when I first encountered coaches with a professional background, that the three things you must have to gain success at ANY level are method, organisation and discipline, and all too often this term I've seen precious little of any element of that.
As for Allardyce being "my mate", yes I thought he was the right man at the right time and I also defended him against the moronic, abusive, ill informed crap that got thrown at him, but I agreed that his time had come when he went.
The one thing that can't be argued against Allardyce is that he did exactly what he was employed to do. I.E. get us promoted and establish us in the PL, Bilic has supposedly been employed to take us to the holy grail of "the next level", and no matter how high or low you set the bar for that you cannot deny that we have taken a significant step backwards this term.
Is it all down to him? Probably not, but he unquestionably has to accept a significant share of the blame for it.

But it's March and we finished 7 th last year. How have we failed? Your stats are subjective and my point is that only one stat really matters in terms of success or failure. Now if you're successful but don't like the football your watching then that's a different matter. I thought Allardyce too did what he was meant to do, but after a few seasons it's hard to stomach what's dished up. We were told "be careful what you wish for and finished 7th. Only because we got lucky with the players we bought. As did Leicester with Mahrez and Kanye last year and Vardy having af real season. I think you over analyse too much, you may have a lot of time on your hands but it's simple, the teams with the best players or best form players win. The manager isn't that important anymore. They're just a bi-product of the game along wtime the paying supporters. It's all about the payers.

I don't have that much time on my hands, you don't need to when the problems are as obvious as they are this term. As for the manager not being "that important anymore", you show your ignorance in that statement. 90% of management is the same across the board, it's the extra 10% that makes the difference, so I ask how much of that extra 10% has Bilic got? Hopefully he has enough, but.......................

Stat taken from where? Sorry mate you just keep throwing up numbers with little percentage symbols after them as if that's going to win a debate. All these stats and reports are unsubstantiated. All I know is that players got Ranieri the sack, Mourinho the sack and can decide that they want to play at a certain and sole club, and if you don't let them go they'll down tools and take £125k for the privilege. Since Fergie retired the role of the manager has lessened and all f these guys in the top jobs now are short term, there is no long term. Paying punters are even further down the food chain, so little crumbs of glory like finishing well in the league or a League cup last 16 cup run, is like utopia. Unfortunately until we've all got 4 hours a day to trudge through how many goals we have or haven't scored against who, and how many points we have taken from teams below us, we just settle for where we finish at the end of the season.

4 hours a day? It takes me 2 minutes pal, I can find them in my tea break, so there's another stupid statement. Ok, so managers jobs are considerably less than secure than they ever were, but good managers provide the leadership by instilling the aforementioned method etc, and those that can do it are the ones that are the most successful. So yes, they may not last as long in one job as they did by and large, but their role within a football club is as important as it has ever been, more so probably due to the precocious nature of the modern player.
The problem with you is that you make absurdly clumsy attempts to ridicule anything that you don't understand. The figures regarding our home form are damning, that's undeniable. They are there in black and white for all to see, they're not just my "opinion" and the point I make about management is not just my opinion either. These are accepted principles throughout the game and have been for all of the 40+ years that I have worked and been involved in Football.
So I maintain that this season has fallen well below what were reasonable expectations in August, I.E. that we would be in a position to challenge for a European place, and that Bilic must take his share of responsibility for that.
Still, I suppose you'll come back with more of your puerile statements and attempt to ignore what is staring you in the face.

The facts are facts, the reason we were relegated in 03 was due to home form. Home games are your bankers and you should be winning at least 10 home games a season. That's what you'd project at a club like ours at the start of a season, and I'd fancy that Bilic would have targeted that as a bare minimum.
The whole reason why this debate has droned on goes back to the first posting in the thread that stated - in a nutshell - that so many on here are ready to defend Bilic to the hilt ignoring facts that are staring them in the face.
So yes, I think many here are deluded and some are in my opinion, stupid as well. Do you fall into that category? Well if you continue to ignore facts then you do.

It must be a trait that some will be a lot less than satisfied with our season thus far. For me Ayew (a goal and assist in his last 2 games) looks lively when he has come on and had he not been injured so early in the season who knows where we would be? regards Tomkins I would agree he would have slotted into RB and I think would have done well. We hear about marquee signings and much of this is just paper talk. Bilic is still learning IMHO and I feel we will improve next term. But we (and the board/manager) could all harp on about who we want but it is A) whether they want to come or B) how agents then react and use the interest to try and find another/bigger club offering top dollar! Payet was a shadow of his last season self maybe the club/manager could have handled it differently like "Give us your best until the seasons end and we'll let you go" though he does not seem to be setting Ligue 1 alight in his second spell at Marseille! Last season was a funny one good football and some great results but not only am I convinced that the players but fans wanted to make the "Farewell Boleyn" season special and many fans clamouring for home tickets as it could be their last chance to bid adieu to the "old girl", couple that with the stadium move was a weight of expectation that this season can't be matched. I don't want us to be the sort of club that changes managers every season or few months we need continuity, everyone at the club needs to take their share of responsibility and I just wonder how many clubs will lose players to China over the summer? That may create a more level playing field (hopefully).

Whether youve had enough of bilic or think our position is about right there is no excuse for him playing players at full back that should be elsewhere on the pitch doing the job they are supposed to do.

I agree. but allardyce did it, grant did it, zola did it, pardew did it. they all do it lol. for me bilic has to decide if he wants a back 4 or back 3 and in summer he needs to buy accordingly. we need a right back in a back 4. and I dont get why antonio cant play right wing where he is best. I think lanzini shud replace noble and snod goes left wing antonio right carroll and ayew up front.

Im far from satisfied with the manager and our season but need to be realistic and this is a journey, we aim to be that best of the rest and that means 7th in the league and maybe, just maybe some seasons when we are top 6. I question some of Bilic picks and strategy but I give him the benefit of the doubt, he sees the training and hears the voices I cant. The simple test is would you want Bilic or Grant, Pards, Fattydyce, Roeder, Curbs???? We cant bring back Greenwood (who I recall my father constantly moaning about) or Lyall (also had some poor seasons) one of which thought is was a good idea to play Tommy Taylor as a bl__dy striker!! In short I say stick with Slav, give him a chance and for Gods sake get behind him and the club we profess to love!

This season has been unreal on here,a couple of wins & slav is the boll*x,then a couple of losses & he should be sacked...
As people have stated we have no devine right to beat the likes of bournemouth,against chelski we played some good stuff,but they have £200+million of extra class in their side,that was the difference...
West brom,we should have been out of sight & we were the better side v watford!!
So is it really a disaster,i think not!!
Its the prem,any one can beat anyone!!

Once again the "warm weather training" during the FA CUP interruption has backfired. I've yet to see West Ham come back from Dubai (or wherever) with a spring in their step. Sad fact is for most of the last several seasons we've been a team that's run out of steam in the second half, and it looks that way again this season. With or without Bilic. Just hope we don't get dragged back into a dogfight and apart from that I can't wait for NEXT season.

I think Westham will be dragged back in to the dogfight.Bilic still doesn't know his best side two years down the line,the team are still leaking goals like a seive and playing one up front just isn't working against most opposition.Performances this season have been very indifferent,most below par it has to be said.Would love to see the return of two out and out strikers to the side like Kitson and Hartson,McAvennie and Cottee,Sakho and Valencia,and return to the traditional 4-4-2 and build around that formation.What we have now is a hotch potch of players that don't seem to know how they should be playing tactically,it's becoming a joke.Kouyate right back,Antonio right back ,rightwing,centre forward....WTF is going on.Bilic needs to listen to the player,let him say where his best position is,and stick to it....,you field a player according to his strengths,why is it so many managers think they know better than the player.Its the quickest way to damage a players confidence playing that unfamiliar role,plus it leads to team performances that are below par,and that is where we are at now.The buck stops with Bilic,Westham are no way safe yet

Players are average mate. They are mid table, if they have bad form they'll finish lower and if they play well we'll finish higher, I think we over complicate everything, looking for convaluted reasons

I have to agree. bilic isn't perfect but lets be honest the squad is what it is. its a mid table squad. all the arguments above seem to be about other things i.e. home form, capitulations etc…but at the end of the day mid table is mid table. if we finish below mid table then we can all come and complain that its been a 'failure' if we finish round about where we are then its an 'as expected' season.

Then the focus would be on the board to improve it. You can see why the board felt they didn't need to spend much (not sticking up for them!! just saying), they finished 7th with pretty much the same squad. they probably felt that they could coach another season in the top 10. Payet changed that and the knee jerked in my opinion with Snodgrass. If we finish e11/10th then it will be where we should be, any lower and they have to open the wallet, and then we will see if people want to come to a mid table prem team

Good thread though, lots of interesting debate and opinions. One of the best threads since the .org rose from the ashes actually.
I think if we play a proper RB @ RB, drop Noble for Kouyate and lock Feghouli under the stairs we'll see much better results.
Managers all get it wrong in the transfer window. Best of 3 I say.

Give slav next season and make sure it a good window. Then lets talk about his future. Also id rather see Kouyate just benched in general or moved to center back, thats not saying Noble shouldnt be rested, its just playing Kouyate in the current 442/4411 system we are currently playing is absolutely suicidal as proved by Bournemouths 3rd goal being the most recent example,

I wasn't happy about his appointment and this was due to 2 main reasons:

1. He left us for money after only 16-18 months, at a time that loyalty was actually still part of the game. Everton stayed up on goal difference in his first season and I think he left during the next season/year and they finished below us again! His words were 'I'm moving on to further my career?'

2. His record as a domestic manager was shite, so it was always a big risk.

Some of his team selections and tatics are appalling, Antonio/Koyaute etc