So after a loooooooong (read multi-thousand word) discussion on the Wollongong Climbing Group on Facebook there was a general consensus (as much as possible) that this route should be chopped.

The main reason for chopping was because it was above the Dave Walsh walking track on Mt Keira and I believe that the NPWS who manage the area would not appreciate these new bolts. I feel it is better for climbers to be self managing rather than managed.

I had hoped to get in and chop the bolts before anybody from NPWS noticed them but unfortunately I took three months from noticing this route existed to getting off my fat ass and in that time the NPWS have been out doing track work underneath the route.

This is the first time I have actually gone out there and altered the rock in any way  I have never bolted or chopped before. So I got a little advice, tools and epoxy from a friend (thanks G).

This photo was taken standing on the track with my phone  in the flesh the bolts are unmissable.

A big ass hammer  needed to break the bond between the glue and the rock. A few solid hits is all it takes.

A big ass wrench  needed to unscrew the bolts (these ones had proper thread like a normal bolt so they just twisted right out).

The bolts  not a bad days work.

Epoxy  to cover up the holes and make it all look nice again.

My bag of specially found dirt  to make sure it is a truly local solution.

Damo, if you can name the route at Kiera, its been retroed or (poorly) rebolted. I got banned from the Wollongong Climbing Community group for critisising too much - speaking out about things like remarking routes with bright blue paint, retrobolting trad lines and calling them new routes and even the fact an FA gets naming rights, not the equipper.

To me, these are all standard climbing ethics violations and the response I always got was 'Wheres it written down, wheres the proof?' Its all a bit crazy to me!

Oh shit - i was so carried away with my chopping that I didn't cover up the bright blue 'PP' at the base.

Other things that pissed me off that I haven't bothered to do anything about (on top of Sonic's list) placing lower offs on routes with perfectly fine stainless glue in carrots for top belaying on a bunch of the West routes; and removing the top belay carrots (again perfectly fine) at the top of one or two of the short south face top rope routes and not replacing them.

Less to do with the climbing and more to do with Terry himself, he has retro/rebolted a bunch of routes that did need it and yet because of his other actions and in very large part because of his attitude he has pissed off basically the entire Wollongong climbing community.

Edit: I have been informed the top belay carrots on the west face have not been removed. The east face top rope carrots have, however, and on one of the routes not replaced with rings. The post has been modified to reflect this.

Thank You! Great to see someone getting out there and making a stand for a crag that holds some historical significance for climbing on the South Coast and which was the learning ground for some of the leading climbers of the day.
Not sure how one can put a stop to the "new" route activity particularly on the West and South faces. The reality is virtually every inch of anything worthwhile under 25 has been climbed on. Anybody claiming a firsct ascent is deluded as to the uniqueness or worthiness of the climb. Unfortunately this is further compounded on The Crag website with new routes being claimed over what were existing routes. My attempts to correct this were met with abuse.

I was there a few weeks ago and carrots were still in place. A lot of these pre-date the recent rebolting and some go back to what was one of the first outdoor climbing comps held in the country held in the late 80s early 90s. Lower offs would be good on some routes but in some cases (eg.Short Legs) they can cut short the best part of the route.

On 12/01/2013 OldestBumbly wrote:>Thank You! Great to see someone getting out there and making a stand for>a crag that holds some historical significance for climbing on the South>Coast and which was the learning ground for some of the leading climbers>of the day. >Not sure how one can put a stop to the "new" route activity particularly>on the West and South faces. The reality is virtually every inch of anything>worthwhile under 25 has been climbed on. Anybody claiming a firsct ascent>is deluded as to the uniqueness or worthiness of the climb.

On 12/01/2013 Sonic wrote:>To me, these are all standard climbing ethics violations and the response>I always got was 'Wheres it written down, wheres the proof?' Its all a>bit crazy to me!

Would you guys be interested in another climbing comp at Kiera? We could have a nominated time period, and the winner is whoever brings back the highest number of Terry's retrobolts/bullshit non-route bolts.

>Would you guys be interested in another climbing comp at Kiera? We could>have a nominated time period, and the winner is whoever brings back the>highest number of Terry's retrobolts/bullshit non-route bolts.

Sounds good except (as hard as it is to say) some of the bolting has been good. At least one spin-off of the chopping has shown that they are fairly solid - at one point I was concerned bolting techniques may have been taught at the same ethics classes.

I liked it better with rings. Nice 316 grade, clean glue job. Good one Terry. The name Terry reminds me of Club Keno in the RSL. Im not sure why. Anyhow, well done to all. I think that Olberts next purchase from the hardware removing store should be a good pair of rubber gloves, that grey stuff no good for the skin....

Re the blue letters - I'm considering going back and covering the blue letters with epoxy as well as filling in some chips that have appeared on new routes and at least one old route which hadn't been forgotten about.

- ALL planned and intended changes to MTK were posted on a FB forum WCC(old name) - on a daily/weekly basis for over one year in 2012 - people in this thread (and 55 others) had 'ample' opportunity to make comments at anytime. The few comments made were acted upon.

- the Prow Prowess route was notified to WCC(old name) and to over 300 Hangdog forum members in July 2012, and climbed/seen by at least a dozen climbers. Any issue with it was instigated by OLBERT for his own unilateral purposes

- Gumtree wall was ring bolted over 10 years ago

- Any 'new' routes ARE NOT covered in any of the old guides (although, 1 is in vague dispute)

- SONIC (gavin) was never banned from WCC (old name) forum . After repeated requests for assistance from Sonic for help (FB msgs can be produced) , Sonic in a fit of peak individually FB banned the WCC admin. As the WCC admin could no longer see SONICS posts in WCC (a bug/issue in FB) he had to be temporarily removed from the forum)

- the placing of lower offs was originally mandated by dave hoyle and paul ratenbury (their FB msgs can be produced - 1 specifically requesting low LOs on Short Legs)

- blue lettering is simply paint, it can be easily rubbed off - the original crag developers carved into the rock the route initials.. paint is far less destructive.

I have found these related thread comments neither accurate or helpful and blatantly vindictive , I shall not bother reading related chockstone threads again.
- so, please don't bother replying to me on this... i have stated facts not opinions, they are not in dispute

On 14/01/2013 lionelterray wrote:>- so, please don't bother replying to me on this... i have stated facts>not opinions, they are not in dispute

That's funny Terry, because all my climbing mates in Wollongong (who are smart, sensible people, and very good climbers to boot) have quite vigorously disputed your so-called "facts".

Here's some facts;

-in a very short period of time you've managed to alienate yourself from almost the entire climbing community in the Illawarra
-the climbers down there are, on the whole, extremely good natured and have been trying to moderate your ridiculous views and actions without hurting your feelings
-I'm a vindictive prick, and have no such qualms
-The best and easiest way forward for you right now is to sit down with the active climbers in Wollongong, listen to what they have to say, and come to an amicable compromise (which will require YOU to pull and patch a bunch of your bolts, rather than someone else doing the work for you)

On 14/01/2013 nmonteith wrote:>I live 60km away from this crag (am i considered a local?) and have never>heard of any of these web forums/facebook pages.

There are a few points to be made here:
- The (formally) Wollongong Climbing Community Facebook group was created by Daave who added his Wollongong friends who then added their Wollongong friends. At one stage there was more than a hundred people on this list. You (Neil) and others were probably not on because your Wollongong climbing Facebook friends figured you probably didn't want to be a part of a Wollongong thing.

- The group has since had a few changes and is now administered by Terry. The group name was changed a while back and as of a few days ago was still the Lionel Terray Support Group (formally WCC). Since I posted this TR I have been kicked out of the group and can no longer even find it. Actually, when I search Facebook with a browser that I'm not logged into I still can't find it. As of a few days ago it was down to 40-something members - I'm assuming most people left in protest to the way the group was being run.

- There is an alternate Illawarra and Highlands Climbing Community group which sprung up in direct response to the way the WCC was being administered. Feel free to join though I'm pretty sure you have to be approved as a member (for obvious reasons). It currently has 131 members.

On 14/01/2013 Olbert wrote:>- There is an alternate Illawar>a and Highlands Climbing Community group which sprung up in direct>response to the way the WCC was being administered. Feel free to join>though I'm pretty sure you have to be approved as a member (for obvious>reasons). It currently has 131 members.

I had absolutely no idea there was that many climbers in Wollongong! And that it was so political...