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Some believe animals don't dream. Yet, I've seen my Lucas (canine) dream in his sleep time after time. His legs are going through the motions of running and his muffled barks let me know he is chasing something in his dreams. Unmistakeably. When my mom died several years ago, I sat on the couch and wept. All the dogs came to me and tried to comfort me. They tried to lick my wet face and whined too, until my last sob. Why the comforting touch if they have no emotions? I recently rescued/adopted a pot bellied pig. A story was related to me of the heroics antics of a pig. It seems a small boy was playing out in the yard when a stray ferocious pit bull approached the boy. The dog attempted to maul the boy. A family pet, a potbellied pig, was with the boy at the time and intervened in time to drive the dog off. It is well-known that pigs have a temper and are quite mean when provoked. I wish I could find a news or article link to validate this account. My curiosity is peaked because why would the pig protect the little boy if it had no sense of "family" towards him. The little boy didn't perform the daily feedings, as the mom was the one who fed and cared for the pet pig. There was obviously some kind of protective, emotionalized reaction here.

I am convinced that some animals have emotions. It is difficult to determine their capabilities of love, however. I know of loyalties. I know of emotional responses. So yes, I believe they love but not in the complicated dynamics that humans do. I am also convinced that people get carried away with alleged attributes/emotional capacities of their pets. Many of some "loving" attributes are merely survival tactics.

There is no reason to assume that humans have a monopoly on emotions. Clearly LaFaunduh is extroverted... she hates to be by herself. Harley gets very excited anytime she sees me, and looks ashamed when she does something bad.

I couldn't be happy without pets. If I didn't travel so much for work, I would have many more.

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Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

Also with due respect to my Poo, animals are the ones that love, not humans. My Sam has more love packed into his 16.7 lb frame than any human I know. He can also talk and knows his times tables. He once rescued a baby from a burning building and he hates cats and squirrels.

I knew I finally had enough emotional stability in my aids ravaged life three years ago when I got Sam. It was the best decision I have ever made.

I know that my three legged, incontinent, epileptic, pug, George, enriches my life daily. When I am not feeling well he is there to silently support me. It is not even necessary to get into a philosophical discussion as to whether or not he has feelings or emotions. All I know is that he is there when I need him. He moves closer when I am in pain. He cuddles closer to me when I cry. Of course those big dark watery eyes staring at you can't help but make you feel understood. Gotta love him.

Anthropomorphism is never a good idea. A pet does not love you. It stays because you feed it. Love is the sole preserve of humans.

MtD

In all fairness matty...the rabbits LOVE the way people admire me when I wear them, I can just tell. If you look real close at the left side you can almost see the jacket "smiling"....

edited cause i found a better pic.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 10:40:45 AM by ACinKC »

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Fargo, my German Shorthair Pointer / Red Heeler mix, displays a wide range of emotions. She is happy when playing frisbee or fetch -- or rolling around on cow patties in the back pasture . She is jealous when I pay attention to other dogs. She gets angry at the vacuum cleaner and lawn mower. She is very loyal protective of me and the house. She lays next to me when I am upset. She is contrite (sucks up) when she's done something she knows she shouldn't. And she gets excited and happy when I come home from work every day. Now if I could just find a man who would get that excited when I come home from work.

Cheers,

Henry

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Aren't humans really just advanced animals? I mean we are in the animal kingdom...we have very similar embryological development...so why would we be the only ones with emotions? Matty, I see your post about humans being the only ones with love...That implies that humans are 'special' or different from other types of animals...Doesn't seem like a very atheistic p.o.v. to me...

I know my dog plays catch and chase with me and my son and food is not involved in any of those activities...

I think Maestro has hit the nail on the head: humans are animals too. Whether we are advanced or not is often debatable.

Here is a picture of my dog Fargo:

[attachment deleted by admin]

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

I know our cats love... and hate and dislike. They hate it when we go out of town camping or wherever, although we have friends come by a couple times per day. They love us, especially when we get back in town, and one, in particular, dislikes all other cats, but loves (human)females and tolerates men (we think she's a lesbian).

My ex-next door neighbors had a Spaniel that absolutely hated me and this one other guy, but loved everybody else. She'd snap at me, growl, etc. One day, she became my best friend and I couldn't get her out of my lap without her whining. So, yes, they can love, but can also be as fickle and hateful as humans.

I think love is an instinctual response for many animals although Matty might define human love as more complex. Having watched several dogs and one cat give birth and tend to babies I think the inherent desire to care for offspring is love of some kind. My dogs have emotions like happiness, sadness, embarrassment, etc. and as I am the alpha animal they demonstrate love to me as well as to each other. When I leave town a couple of dogs won't eat for 1 or 2 days and their obvious pleasure when I return seems to demonstrate a preference for me over other humans. Just as a small child is happy and comforted to be re-united with mom or dad my dogs are comfortable when I return.

Human emotions may be more finely developed but sometimes I wonder if that is more a hindrance to loving others. So many humans, including me, have very rigidly defined preferences in many areas, ranging from basics like food and clothing (some people buy designer labels) to religious/political/ethical/etc. to music/art/drama/film/etc. to who they are attracted to physically as well as non-sexually. Humans also seem to be the only animals that screw each other over by taking advantage of emotions or worse. If a lion attacks a gazelle it's because it's hungry (or may be young, in training), not because the gazelle has $25 in its pocket.

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Life is full of pain, I'm cruisin' through my brainAnd I fill my nose with snow and go Rimbaud,Go Rimbaud, go Rimbaud,And go Johnny go, and do the watusi, oh do the watusi

When I think back on my old dog, Colonel, I can't figure out how exactly to think of his behaviors in terms other than "emotions". Like guilt. I could always tell if he had gotten into the trash or chewed up a shoe or something just by the look on his face when I came through the door. I watched him display things like fear (of cats) and happiness in play with me or other dogs in the park. So why not love? Of course, the word on here a few weeks ago was that humans didn't have souls or experience love either- just some bio-chemical responses of some sort. I guess I'm a simpleton, but those concepts seemed to break things down further than I cared for. Maybe concepts like souls and emotions are incorrect. I don't know, but if they are only romantic notions, they're romantic notions that make life a lot more liveable for me. So even if I'm fooling myself, I'm gonna hold onto my ideology and give myself a soul and emotions.

Whilst this little mince down memory lane is all very heartening none of it proves that one's companion animal's pack instinct equals love.

Matty, I see your post about humans being the only ones with love...That implies that humans are 'special' or different from other types of animals...Doesn't seem like a very atheistic p.o.v. to me...

Nice wiki-try Maestro but no squeaky chew-toy banana for you, my love. The difference between humans and other animals is quite marked. There are a number of characteristics beholden only to humans. My support of such a position does nothing to contradict my fierce atheism.

In all fairness I really asked two different questions, do other species love in the subject line and do pets have feelings in the poll. This may be confusing. I think it would be easier to say pets have feelings and emotions than love?

I know my cat is feeling good when he is purring and licking/cleaning my hair (I have given in, it makes him happy and its the only place that does not hurt as he has a tongue like a scouring pad.) I would be careful about generalizing a lot of human behavior to other species, however I would also be cautious in thinking we are completely special mammals.

I love seeing pictures of folks little friends, it's sweet. Matty, you don't have any children?

Presently he does not. Matty the Damned's dog (a most obnoxious jack russell/fox terrier cross) died in 2003 at the age of 15. The fucker had vastly overstayed his welcome. The damn thing received a better standard of health care than most Americans.

As a child raised in the country I had many pets, including horses and a mouse which met an unfortunate demise under a guitar case.

I know for a fact that some animals love us. Some just hang around for the food but some really love us. You can tell..I had a cat that would give me kisses and when I was pregnant with my son, he never left my side whenever I was home. Cristy

Dogs really do feel love. I still remember when my grandpa died, their dog Molly would still look for him each day and wait for him by the door. My dad, being mean, said "Daddy's home!" and she became very excited and wagged her tail, waiting for him to come through the door. She really grieved his death.

Cats, on the other hand, aren't really as loving. They have a whole different personality. I think they feel they are doing you a favor by treating you to their existence. And you really don't often hear about cats that save owners from burning buildings or whatever. The cats my grandparents had really couldn't care less after he died. My cats are loving and really weird little animals, but if they found someone else to feed them, I really doubt they would even remember me. I do love their purrs though, but I have to do some wall repair (who knew a cat would climb walls??) and my female cat Manolo gets into everything--she climbs into the dishwasher and lays down when I am loading or unloading dishes, she climbs into the refrigerator, the cabinets, and likes to be in high places. She used to be very clingy until I got another cat to keep her company.

I have dog and I have no doubts that he loves. When I ask him if he loves me he jumps on my chest and rubs his neck against my face. This might sound weird to some, but I love it and I love him. My little buddy.

Absolutely! I think dogs have feelings. I have an example as "proof". My husband passed away 4 months ago. He died in bed. Our german shepherd stayed by his side all night until I realized he was gone. For the next two weeks she got up each morning and started to "cry". She whined and moaned each morning for about an hour. The crying tapered off after that. During that two weeks she moped around the house and didn't try to greet anyone that came to the house (very unusual). She just layed around and stared off into space. Whenever I cry she tries to comfort me either with distraction by getting a toy for me or licking my face or "stealing" something that doesn't belong to her and running off so I will chase her. German shepherds are the greatest dogs on the planet IMHO.

Anthropomorphism is never a good idea. A pet does not love you. It stays because you feed it. Love is the sole preserve of humans.

MtD

Like toolmaking (a growing list); communication (depends how we define language); grieving at funeral sites (elephants). Oops! Lotsa species do this stuff.

Anthropomorphism is dressing your dog in cute outfits or an old Disney animal "documentary" that was more Donna Reed than animal studies.

Infantilism is a nice product of that, hence all the Teddy Bears on Haryleys "biking for the cure" to this or that disease.

As for opportunism, advanced species like us are potent mix of the former (don't kid ourselves into believing we are above that...and a sense of justice or solidarity----community).

Lot's of the animals on my plate have feelings, though I have hard time worrying about the salmon vs. say the veal (yeah, beef is kind of semi-intelligent). I draw the line at horse, monkey, etc, unless I had nothing else to eat.

I used to have a turtle who came to me (no food provided) when called, and they're damn stupid creatures.

I once watched one male street dog bring another male food! Easy to understand why the ailing one loved back, but what motivated the gift (these critters were skinny; no McDonalds in site). Think on that!

You know Matty, we may dislike the same cultural manifestations (don't get me started on "angels"), but our species has little exclusive claims to fame. Let's not get caught up in 19th century Manifest Destiny mindset (even Marxism shows traces); full conquest stuff.

We are dominant. We are deluded. We are complicated. We are poor stewards or our planet.

I am not being tenderhearted, because Nature is damn cruel, but trying to use my human intelligence to figure out our relationship to other animals. I don't need to belong to an exclusive club to be special. If I wasn't an atheist I'd use the word divinity to describe the connectivity around us.

By the way, my parrot prefers my company to his favorite foods anytime he thinks I am trying to divert his attention (bribe) away from my pending departure from the room. That may not disprove what you way, but it sure points in a more nuanced direction, right? He's not half as smart as the various rats I owned years ago. A smart rat (or horse) is smarter than a dumb human any day.

Cats, on the other hand, aren't really as loving. They have a whole different personality. I think they feel they are doing you a favor by treating you to their existence.

In reality each cat is, as even the Egyptians knew, the closest entity to a god on earth. It is our job to make their lives as comfortable and enjoyable as possible. People who don't know this fact and act on it are wasting their lives. I read it in The Book of the Dead

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And you really don't often hear about cats that save owners from burning buildings or whatever.

Six years ago an elderly friend was awakened about 3 AM by his very agitated 15 year old cat. Richard smelled the smoke and saved the lives of the other people in his apartment building as well as most pets but, unfortunately, the saviour died in the fire. She had a good life and several people will always remember they are still breathing due to her.

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Life is full of pain, I'm cruisin' through my brainAnd I fill my nose with snow and go Rimbaud,Go Rimbaud, go Rimbaud,And go Johnny go, and do the watusi, oh do the watusi

For the most part, it seems like we have been focussed on domesticated animals, which have co-evolved with us and have been selectively bred to an extreme degree for particular characteristics. One could imagine expressing human-like emotional qualities would be one.

Like toolmaking (a growing list); communication (depends how we define language); grieving at funeral sites (elephants). Oops! Lotsa species do this stuff.

I wasn't going to address this since I've only posted a few messages and don't want anyone to know how argumentative I am, uh, think I'm a troublemaker.

Except for opposable thumbs humans have no claim to uniqueness as a species. Every bird's song, every dog's bark, every cricket's chirp is communication humans will never comprehend. Even some ants use tools. Written language may be unique to humans but we don't know definitely. Many animals demonstrate active imaginations and problem-solving skills when presented with an obstacle to gaining a desired object. People create "art/music/literature" but again we don't know other creatures well enough to claim these traits as solely human. Maybe every time a male dog pees on a vertical surface it's olfactory performance art. I know my dogs love to get a good sniff and add their own marks to the work-in-progress, and they are quite prolific in creating art on almost every tree, bush, and utility pole we pass while walking..

« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 03:46:44 PM by curmudgeonly »

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Life is full of pain, I'm cruisin' through my brainAnd I fill my nose with snow and go Rimbaud,Go Rimbaud, go Rimbaud,And go Johnny go, and do the watusi, oh do the watusi

This thread is erie. Very pet cemetery. I'll keep my opinion to myself.

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

My Dogs love....whenever my dogs (male and female) get together with another dog...one of them would get jealous when the other is paying more attention to other dog. Thus, jealously is a form of live. So, I would have to say Yes on this one, nonhumans love.

LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN LOVE A HUMAN

i know they are super hard to love because they are not subservient and obiedient and completely dependent for food and life itself on you like a dog

but

if you are only on the planet a short time

why go for only the ghost of love, the shadow of love, the subservient obiedient and completely dependent behaviour of a helpless animal that thinks you are the alpha dog and so it must be instictually completely responsive to you (from fear of being distroyed by alpha dog)

yes it is fun because they do infinately different things in same situation so they keep your mind occupieda trance but

in paris in revolution, great siege, all the dogs and cats were eaten butchered and sold for food, you would eat your animal happily if you were hungry

is that love?

as far as dreaming.. yes they may have dreams of chacing bird but that does not make them humanor capable of love

even a child of 7 or 9 or 11 years old is COMPLETELY INCAPABLE OF LOVEreal love,

they say i love you mommy but what they are really saying is... are you still there to take care of me (same with most boyfriends when they say it) ... are you still there to love me, are you still there to provide my food, needs

the proof is , if both parents are in car accident... killed gone ... a child of 7 or 9 or 11 years old ... is going to in a few weeks or a time, get over it and say that they love the new care taker... the new care taker -- (yes there will be pain and scar, but they cannot equaly love)

that is why it is more painful to loose love as a 45 year old than as a 22 year old

a 35 yr old begins to be mature have have love

love is a smoke that is attached to an action

there is not love only proof of love

love is a smoke that is attached to an action ... doing an act, sacrifice... etc

i can say all this but for me it is so tough to deal with human beings...

love is like a flowering of your soul, if you get enough food water, exercise, stay in same routine, eventually for a short time you flower like a tree or plant, then you are able to love and another person who is flowering will be open to it

the mistake people make is to try to force or find love ... love is not outside to find, or find right person

it is about cultivating soul your own and growing and then flowering...

it is only created as a by product of tending the fire of life

keeping all the good things going and all bad out

sometimes smoke comes from fire, sometimes no smoke, same thing your lover does angers you or you feel love to them

it is inside you

so many suffering caused by unknowing about love

drugs, alcohol, meanness, greed, etc, 7 dead sins, stop this... love

love is a smoke that is attached to an action .. taking care of all aspects of life, food, water, basics...

then

but a cat or dog... jump out of your sleep jump out of your sleep jump out of your sleep try to love a human

i know it is very very hard,

not just mom dad sis,

life is so so short

zen says

be alive nowlove a humaneat a non humanbe happy

animals can sacrifice for us, like if we eat them or they are used for medical research and we can love them for that sacrifice...

i think pets can give a hint of love, a echo but not the real thing, they can help soften a person to be able to love

i dont know

just some thoughts

yes of course for us, being ill, they are great and give comfort and fantastic support and the feeling of lovethat can be healing and good

but is it real

and if life is short isnt real love and a human love worth it

"Anthropomorphism is never a good idea. A pet does not love you. It stays because you feed it. Love is the sole preserve of humans." i agree with this guy

It's rather strange that while we argue over the hows and potential whys of animals having emotions... does it occur to you to ask where your human emotions come from?

Do we love each other because of some sort of altruistic impulse, or do we merely desire the companionship (and maybe food if you end up with a good cook)? Is it merely our primate pack instinct and genetic need for sociability that drives us to seek each other out? And if it is, does that make our feelings for each other any less valid or meaningful?

That said, I really don't care why my cat hisses and swipes at my evil ex only after we break up, or why he nuzzles me in the mornings... just like why I don't really care why someone likes me... it's just pleasant when they do.

I would like to think they do... I got a puppy shortly after being released from the hospital w/ PCP and an AIDS diagnosis. This one had been abused, starved and for all intents and purposes filled a void in my life. That puppy started sitting by my desk when on the computer trying to begin working again. There is the same puppy (as an old dog) still sitting here as we speak.

I used to travel 13 hours each way to medical care and on the first trip, I left the puppy at a boarding kennel. I was staying at BF's apartment when in L.A. and he had two cats. Our pets never hit it off. I got home and to the boarding kennel a day early and waited 12 hours for a human person who was supposed to be feeding and caring for other peoples animals. They did show up after midnight and the lady started screaming about calling the police because I was sitting in my car in her driveway. When her husband showed up, he retrived my dog who took 1 leap through my open car window and was more than ready to go home. I have never left the dog in a kennel again and he has traveled thousands of miles. Have the best dayMichael

That said, I really don't care why my cat hisses and swipes at my evil ex only after we break up, or why he nuzzles me in the mornings... just like why I don't really care why someone likes me... it's just pleasant when they do.

Reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from Pulp Fiction when they are eating breakfast towards the end of the movie:

Jules: Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals. Vincent: Bacon tastes gooood. Pork chops taste gooood. Jules: Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfucker. Pigs sleep and root in shit. That's a filthy animal. I ain't eat nothin' that ain't got enough sense enough to disregard its own faeces. Vincent: How about a dog? Dogs eats its own feces. Jules: I don't eat dog either. Vincent: Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal? Jules: I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy but they're definitely dirty. But, a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way. Vincent: Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true? Jules: Well we'd have to be talkin' about one charmin' motherfuckin' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

And matty. FUNNY AS HELL. Where do you get this shit. I thought I was good at finding pictures but you my friend are in a different league.

I bow to you oh exalted leader of all things funny!

your humble servant in laughter,Andrew

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LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!