O.K. WhiteWings, like the Burger King commercial: "Have it your way." Israel does not need to wait for their Redeemer to arrive out of Zion. God was wrong. I need to throw out my Bible. I will await yours.

Did you read my post?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [/i]

Acts 13:48 ....and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

That Acts 13 is a very Calvinistic statement. Because it implies that you believe because you are ordained to eternal life, and if not, where does that leave you? Very transient. I need help from Martin on that one.

"ordained"G5021τάσσωtassōtas'-soA prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

I'll try to explain with an example.Assume the understanding of the Bible is your key to unlock the door of the prison.

What happens if we assume that some people could not believe the testimony of God because God binded them?

John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

If one is OUTSIDE the veil..how can ONE SEE?... for MANY are called But Few are Chosen, I see this as the Jews ..like the disciples...Those of their DAY to were invited to the wedding feast , but only those CLOTHED were permitted.

Saul Himself was Blind, and it was THE PRIDE of The LAW which caused it ,having his scales removed

Paul himself, later come to Understand what is Known as the Mystery (of) the ages .....Christ revealed from within.

HIS door will always remained Locked for those outside the veil while they remain in the Old C ,

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity. 9 by the HANDS of law)

By returning to LAW we fall from Grace, AS some did ...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace

we are to BELIEVE in HIM who Overcome FOR US!

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

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Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

bobf

That Acts 13 is a very Calvinistic statement. Because it implies that you believe because you are ordained to eternal life, and if not, where does that leave you? Very transient. I need help from Martin on that one.

That Acts 13 is a very Calvinistic statement. Because it implies that you believe because you are ordained to eternal life, and if not, where does that leave you? Very transient. I need help from Martin on that one.

It leaves you right where you are choosing to be.

Its a chicken and egg thing. Do we believe because we are ordained to eternal life or are we ordained to eternal life because we believe?

The veil was ripped from top to bottom. There is no reason why everyone cannot at least look inside and see what's there. Unless they cover their eyes.

1Ti 1:13-16 I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief." (14) Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." (15) Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I." (16) But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian."

Did you see that?Formerly Paul did not have faith.

He was on the road to Damascus to murder Christians.

Did Paul make a free-will decision to believe? No, of course not.

Paul, while on the road, was overwhelmed with faith. The Lord overwhelmed Paul's will to murder by overwhelming his will with faith and love.

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Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

Its a chicken and egg thing. Do we believe because we are ordained to eternal life or are we ordained to eternal life because we believe?

I don't think it is a chicken and egg thing. I think there is an order.

1. None believed2. God has mercy on those He ordains by opening their eyes3. They believe because God opened their eyes4. God uses them to lead others to Christ at the appointed time

Apart from God opening the eyes of the blind, none believed, believe, or will believe.

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

None of this circumvents the fact that each person is choosing to believe or not believe.

well if we are talking about Jews, they presumably believed something. Although it seems that many of them by Jesus day had given themselves over to the satanic practices learned in Babylon and Egypt. But what is changing here is the priesthood. The Levite priesthood is ordained by bloodline. The Melchizedek priesthood is ordained by oath of God and based on an eternal life.

Psalm 110:4The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 716one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

Therefore, a Levite priest can no longer be a priest of God without Christ. You can see why they might be motivated to reject this because they are losing all their worldly power.

bobf

HIS door will always remained Locked for those outside the veil while they remain in the Old C.

By returning to LAW we fall from Grace, AS some did ...

I'm not sure I really got the point you were making relative to the post I made. I think that seeking to be justified by adherence to outward forms of righteousness is one way to be locked in unbelief, but is it the only way? What about people who are just plain selfish and not seeking to be godly at all?

HIS door will always remained Locked for those outside the veil while they remain in the Old C.

By returning to LAW we fall from Grace, AS some did ...

I'm not sure I really got the point you were making relative to the post I made. I think that seeking to be justified by adherence to outward forms of righteousness is one way to be locked in unbelief, but is it the only way? What about people who are just plain selfish and not seeking to be godly at all?

What about the Millions who never even heard of the WAY, The Truth and The Life, those too?

Indeed, all men are Blind to HIM, as are those who seek outward observance as Did\do the Jews remain behind the veil , To KNOW HIM is Eternal Life, which I see NOW for those IN HIM, HE is that REWARD NOW, as spoken of the pharisees which relate very much to the FLESH of man, they to have their reward.

The law as we Know, is the Tutor to HIM ,but there are Multitudes who know not the Tutor ...so Yes, for mine they too remain behind the veil.

I was just sharing how one sees a Little on the Door

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Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

well if we are talking about Jews, they presumably believed something.

I was talking about everyone, not just Jews.

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Therefore, a Levite priest can no longer be a priest of God without Christ. You can see why they might be motivated to reject this because they are losing all their worldly power.

That makes sense. I think there are various ways people can be locked up in unbelief, but it generally boils down to loving & worshipping of self in some form or another.

This is not a small thing. It is what I was talking about earlier.

Who wants to turn al Adam into a beast of the field? Satan does!

The men who killed Jesus were satanists. He called them as much.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

--Mat 23

Matthew 12:34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.

These were the men who were the head of the Jewish society at that time and had the power of life and death over him. He was calling the priests a brood of vipers.

Now I don't wish to offend anyone but according to the Bible that I'm reading, the Pope has as much chance of being Christ on earth as I do. He and I are equals before God. I just don't have all the worldly power that he has. And, what does Jesus tell us?

Matthew 23:9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Are the Pope and I reading the same Bible? Or do we have the same problem happening today as has been going on since the garden?

But now this mystery has been revealed to the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Only the Lord Jesus stands as mediator between you and God the Father.

You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek, based on an indestructable life.

bobf

What about the Millions who never even heard of the WAY, The Truth and The Life, those too?

I aways found it intriguing that the UNKNOWN GOD whom they worshipped in ignorance was none other than Jesus Christ.

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

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Indeed, all men are Blind to HIM, as are those who seek outward observance as Did\do the Jews remain behind the veil , To KNOW HIM is Eternal Life, which I see NOW for those IN HIM, HE is that REWARD NOW, as spoken of the pharisees which relate very much to the FLESH of man, they to have their reward.

The law as we Know, is the Tutor to HIM ,but there are Multitudes who know not the Tutor ...so Yes, for mine they too remain behind the veil.

pneuma

God says He locks up all together in stubbornness (Romans 11:32).The majority of you say basically Paul is mistaken. God hasn't locked anyone up. God has opened the door!

Tony we are NOT saying Paul is mistaken, we are saying God locked them up in their own unbelief, here we agree with you, but we add that Jesus came to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Lu.4:18-19

Remember Tony God did not lock them up in Romans Paul was explaining how and why they were locked up in the Old Testament under the LAW. Thus Jesus came to give sight to the BLIND and DELIEVER the CAPTIVES.

So as they were locked up in the Old Testament as scripture shows us and you believe the door is stilled locked to them today please explain then how some Jews are set at liberty?

For we read

Acts 14:1And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Romans 1:1616 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Thus we see that the Jew that believes is set free in Christ, thus the door is open by Christ, for Paul goes on to say

Romans 10:11-1511 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him(referring to both Jew and Greek as seen in verse 12) shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever (both of the Jew and the Greek) shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul then goes on to tell us how those who are locked up in their own unbelief come to call on the name of the Lord.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

And this all a prelude to Ro.11 were it is shown that the natural branch is gaffed back in V.23

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So, please, take your scissors and cut out Romans 11:32 because it does not agree with your theology. What God shuts no man can open. Man is not free to become unlocked from God's prison. Man must wait for the Redeemer.

Brother the REDEEMER has come.

Tony if the redeemer has not yet come for the Jews as you say then the Jews were correct in their belief that Jesus Christ was NOT their Messiah and they are correct to wait for Him( their Messiah) to come. Brother that is exactly what you are tell any Jew that might read this thread, that thier Messiah has not yet come but will come for them in the future. Please pray and think about that, and I hope I have not caused you any offence by my words.

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So why is it so hard for people to believe God will save all? Because they can't until God gives it to them to believe.

No one is arguing that Tony, but God has given and is giving them to believe by the preaching of the Gospel, both by His Son and by His sons. They are free just as we are if they but believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. That why verse 23 states

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

....but we add that Jesus came to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Lu.4:18-19

Thus Jesus came to give sight to the BLIND and DELIEVER the CAPTIVES.

Jesus came to blind, not unblind, those who see. The non-elect Jews were blinded by God "unto this day" that Paul was writing.

Light does both brother, by its brightness it blinds those under the law and set free those who beleive. Thus those who are yet in unbelief will stay there (unto this day) until the Day star arises in thier hearts. But again that does not mean the door is locked to the Jews for Paul goes on to say that if they stay not in thier unbelief God is well able to graff them back in.

....but we add that Jesus came to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Lu.4:18-19

Thus Jesus came to give sight to the BLIND and DELIEVER the CAPTIVES.

Jesus came to blind, not unblind, those who see. The non-elect Jews were blinded by God "unto this day" that Paul was writing.

Light does both brother, by its brightness it blinds those under the law and set free those who beleive. Thus those who are yet in unbelief will stay there (unto this day) until the Day star arises in thier hearts. But again that does not mean the door is locked to the Jews for Paul goes on to say that if they stay not in thier unbelief God is well able to graff them back in.

Yes Bro, Blinded to the "LIGHT "of Knowledge

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Pro 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

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Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

....but we add that Jesus came to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Lu.4:18-19

Thus Jesus came to give sight to the BLIND and DELIEVER the CAPTIVES.

Jesus came to blind, not unblind, those who see. The non-elect Jews were blinded by God "unto this day" that Paul was writing.

Light does both brother, by its brightness it blinds those under the law and set free those who beleive. Thus those who are yet in unbelief will stay there (unto this day) until the Day star arises in thier hearts. But again that does not mean the door is locked to the Jews for Paul goes on to say that if they stay not in thier unbelief God is well able to graff them back in.

Yes Bro, Blinded to the "LIGHT "of Knowledge

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Pro 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

Hi Bob, I don't disagree brother, but just because they do not realise the door is open to them does not mean it ain't open.

I thought the locked door we were referring to was their own unbelief. I guess it comes down to this. Who or what is the ultimate cause for the removing of unbelief. God or free will.

Is that what everyone is talking about, who or what is the cause for removing of unbelief?

Earlier I got rebuked for standing up for my belief that we do have free will but I cannot even see a case to disagree with it. I see only a disagreement in how our free will works and some saying that because our free will is superseded by a stronger will, that somehow that means we have no free will.

Instead of looking for agreements on what is stated, we do have free will, I keep seeing things which confuse the issue.

Like, who or what is the ultimate cause for the removing of unbelief, God or free will? Even the adjective of ultimate was injected, which to myself really makes me wonder if without it the answer would change.

Is the issue that we have free will?

Or

Is the issue what is the ultimate cause of the removing of unbelief, free will or God?

I believe Jesus answered this question.

Luke 11:21,22 21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. 22But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils.

How I see this is. The strong man trusted in the wrong armor, his free will, to protect his own house, and his possessions. God comes along, who is stronger, overpowers the strong man taking away the armor, his free will, in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils.

We have a choice:

Trust in our free will believing it to be stronger than it is, not that we don't have it as some want to believe, and in the end lose everything.

Or

Trust in the Lord believing Him to be the Rock, a rock that never fails, and we are over comers in Him.

If I misunderstand the issue, it seems to be consistent for me in this forum, so I am sorry should it be the case.

It is hard to keep a train of thought reading all these different views which keep diverging and never really agreeing or defining what it is they actually are saying.

No, but Paul did make the free will decision to walk by faith in that which he believed.

Sounds here like you are saying that JESUS did not "finish" Paul's faith, ...that Paul did this FOR HIMSELF, of his own FREE WILL...

If PAUL "died daily"... WHO was doing the "WALKING"? Do the DEAD, ...WALK?

What saith the Scripture Scott? (Gal 2:20)

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with CHRIST; nevertheless I live, yet NOTI... but CHRIST LIVETH ...IN ME... and the life which I now LIVE, in the flesh I live BY the FAITH OF the SON of GOD... (not OF his own)

If PAUL did not INITIATE his faith, how may HE be the one to END it (by "walking" of his own "free will") when SCRIPTURE says that CHRIST in fact, is the one which COMPLETES it? (Heb 12:2)

Also... if PAUL is the one keeping ...his... "faith afloat" by "HIS WALK in it of HIS OWN free will decision", WHEREIN is the HAND of the POTTER?

Our "FAITH" is not our own... our FAITH is OF the SAVIOR with WHOM we are CRUCIFIED, and OF whom we garner OVERCOMING, which SAVIOR is due the glory and credit for anything RIGHTEOUS which proceeds from lives submitted TO HIM...

At the end, we don't present OUR righteous WORK before Father... as we claim this "WALK" was accomplished by our "free will"...

CHRIST's WORK, ...IN US... shall be presented in place of US and OUR, ..."work"... Our "work" is covered BY HIM, ...for it lies in SHAME... (Rev 3:18)

The Father shall see HIS SON in whom He is WELL PLEASED, instead of US, who deservedly have gathered SHAME by our decisions (choices) made in the FLESH...

To which you shall most likely reply: Why doth He yet find fault, ...eh?