So this is the the reason why Night Elves should have remained the xenophobic mage haters they were in Warcraft 3.

Maiev is the only Night Elf left who is actually true to WC3 Night elves attitudes. Which is why she is the most awesome.

Maiev is the only nightnelf that was a mage hater, none of the others were, not in WC3, not after the sundering, not at any point in the long vigil, not in wow, not in cataclysm.

Seem to confuse hate for reckless abusers of magic for hatred of mages or the arcane. They hate addiction cos it's not good, abuse because it's not good, recklessness because it's not good. Actual mages or the arcane they are made from, still connected too, and have been using via moonwell s and Nordrassil all through the long vigil and used all through the pre-sundering era? Nope, Maiev is the only one who hates the arcane itself and every mage regardless of if they are uncorrupted or not

So this is the the reason why Night Elves should have remained the xenophobic mage haters they were in Warcraft 3.

Because some blood elf fans don't like it? Because some WC3 night elf fans prefer it that way? This is exactly why you have different things in races. Those who love only the wc3 representation, have that in WC3, and have it in every female night elf warrior and hunter or priest - that part is still there, but there are other parts too. Having druids or arcane wielding mages whether highborne or moonguard or whatever doesn't stop them from having and enjoying their female warrior priests.

IF they or a blood elf fan then starts saying they should only be the one thing, then something fishy is going on, some ulterior motive. In the case of Minairia, she has revealed it, she wants only the blood elves to have elven magical arcane expertise, and though it is clear as day in the nightborne, her mind dissociates the nightborne from being night elven so she can have the little box ticked that night elves are nicely placed in their little box as nature druids who live in trees and forests, nothing more. So when she wants to indulge tree fantasy she goes to night elves, but ofc most of the time she is the majestic blood elf with enchanted magical forests, cities, full of elegance, majesty and magic. And she desperately doesn't want this for the night elves.

I think someone forgot to tell her she was 16 years too late for that outcome.

Which is false. Regardless of how they looked, they were still Highborne.

lol.. your duplicity, so nightborne aren't night elves though their culture, their appearance, they are nocturnal elves which = night elves and after the kaldorei pre-sundering era etc, - why? because they look different. But, high elves are highborne regardless of how they look.. lol

Honey, high elves are highborne descendants, and carry on the legacy of the highborne from a certain point of view, they are not however highborne.

High elves might as well be night elves too. Do you not get that highborne is something that only exists within the night elves kaldorei culture - (i.e. kaldorei and shal'dorei), high elves may have come from highborne, but techincally they are descendants, not actually highborne.

Did you know the night elves referred to the blood elves as highborne when they told the alliance about them just before TBC, but they didn't refer to the high elves quite like that when they met in Hyjal, and the high elves don't refer to themselves as that? Ever wondered why? Read Blood of the Highborne? Carefully look at every reference blood elves, high elves refer and use the term highborne - every single time it is in reference to their ancestory or an ancestor or a portion of their past that was night elven. Every single time. Why is that Minairia?

But hey, if you want to think of blood elves as highborne, go ahead, I use to, and it is partially correct anyway, this is what links them to the night elves. Except when you use it, you are still trying to class highborne as a different race, something an in-game blood elf character might do - you are choosing only to see the in-game perspective and not thinking outside the box, or seeing the pan view the lore gives you.

To defy them of that through your headcanon is saying that neither Quel'Delar nor Felo'melorn are of Highborne origin, when we know this is not the case.

Well i certainly didn't say they weren't of highborne origin... you just take what i say, twist it, and call it headcanon, well ofc it is headcanon, your headcanon, because that isn't what i said.

Silvermoon and the Sunwell were crafted to best that of their previous ancestors and to establish a well versed use of arcane sorcery and to craft a society that bathed in the arcane and the light, but remained a constant better than the corrupted Zin'Azshari and previous Well of Eternity.

ANd i said exactly that, the high elves are ancestors of the highborne, the first generation that were born night elves, they are actually both highborne and high elves, 3 generations later, with a different culture? They aren't.

But you won't even accept the culture is different. Because you define culture in some weird way. You go, their culture is arcane, the highborne culture is arcane, therefore they are both highborne culture. ma mia, might as well call every arcane culture highborne by that logic.

The arcane culture of the high elves is a different culture to the arcane culture of the night elves and their highborne elite. This is why one is called HIGH ELF, and one is called HIGHBORNE. SO you won't get confused.

Why do you keep swapping between your Mage and Druid to reply to people? (Look at Elvereth and Starstride’s post count).

Cos I feel like it. You post how you want to post, I post how I want. No offense.

Sometimes it is because i write so many replies (usually when i think of something, i will pop on and reply again, if i was the last person that posted, I would just use another toon - i could edit, and sometimes do, but posting a fresh toon is another way of breaking down a long post or empahsiing a particular answer. Other times i would reply with the character whoever i am responding to quoted. Other times it's to prove a point - for e.g. some have accused me of not caring about the night elf druids - in an attempt tto twist my wordds, despite most of my topics talking aobut improving them also, so i post on the druid to show that.

Other times I use a toon, to reflect the class, or race or gender i am posting about.. it is a multitude of reasons. I have many alts, i like using them, even for posting.

If those two are exactly the same, then why don't you go ahead and call every Shen'dralar highborne a shen'dralar high elf, and call every Farondis a high elf, might as well just swap highborne for high elf every where you go. Call the nightborne of the highborne group , the high elf group.

Because Quel'dorei (Thalassian) is a very specific group of highborne descendants, they came from a particular.

Watching the Azshara warbringer, you can clearly see where the Highborne of Quel'Thalas got their ideas from when establishing their city, towns and villages. The sh!t about the legacy suddenly stopping is just that, pure sh!t, because we have evidence that tells us that the Highborne legacy still continues, even though the Highborne descendants look different. Still Highborne descendants, much like Naga are.

Omg Minairia, the high elves weren't created in a bubble and emerged from it 7k years ago, ofc they have influences from the NIGHT ELVES they once were.

However, Azshara, the highborne are kaldorei, the entire night elf pre-sundering civilization is kaldorei, all of that is part of Tyrande's kaldorei group lore, as much as it is part of the shen'dralar lore, it is the night elf lore, it is not high elf lore ofc, but it is the highborne lore too, and thus it is also lore related to the high elves. SO is the long vigil in that respect. The long vigil lore up to the exile point is as much related to high elf lore as everything that came before - but none of that is actually high elf lore, anymore than any of the high elf and blood elf is highborne lore.

And Minairia i bet you think the nightborne are far more advanced casters than the shen'dralar highborne.

And Minairia i bet you think the nightborne are far more advanced casters than the shen'dralar highborne.

Obviously.

If nothing else, their skills in telemancy are second to none. Even surpassing the Blood Elves, who yes can create orbs of translocation, but I've yet to see a blood elf weave a gigantic teleportation spell around an army and simply drop them to their deaths.

The Shen'dralar haven't brought anything, barring Alliance reforging, but that's hardly a feat since the blood elves could also do that. Until the day we see the Shen'dralar do anything of relevance that is eyebrow raising, they will be stale magi in comparison to Nightborne, Blood Elves, Humans, Draenei etc.

We haven't seen the what the highborne are capable off yet, their arcane mastery should be roughly similar to the nightborne and I would wager they should be ahead, because they've been exposed more to the outside. both cities continued using the arcane, and the lore tells us that the shen'dralar were feverishly studying the arcane AND scrying on everyone else in the world.

Blizzard didn't show us what they were truly capable of in Cataclysm. Dire Maul only fell to ruins 200 years ago, so for nearly 10k years it would have been similar to Suramar.

THe only advantage the nightborne would have had would ahve been power. The nightwell is obviously a more potent source than a demon. And chronomancy because they had a titan relic with them.

As a night elf fan - (both nightborne and highborne, as well as all the others), the shen'dralar should be a cut above the nightborne in terms of research and combat capability in the arcane. The nightborne should be able to balance this out with chronomancy.

The Shen'dralar haven't brought anything, barring Alliance reforging, but that's hardly a feat since the blood elves could also do that.

That we know off. The shen'dralar taught the blood elves reforging. Do you not remember on its introduction ALL the reforgers in the horde and alliance were Highborne, all, it was only later down the line in cataclysm, that they swapped the highborne ones for blood elf ones.

A tweet from the dev explained it tha the blodo elves had picked it up from the highborne.

I remember distinctly, cos I asked blizzard to do more highborne / blood elf interaction cos I really wanted to see night elves getting along with blood elves, and felt that the highborne were perfectly poised to be the link between the two.

Blizzard ofc, didn't touch the night elves again till legion, where they did a much better job of showing off the highborne and kaldorei arcana through the nightborne.

And I thought to myself, hmm, i bet a lot of people would just forget the highborne and think the nightborne vastly superior because they would judge by what they see, and not factor in what they are told. I was so right.

While it is only an educated guess at this point , since blizzard actually hasn't shown the shen'dralar highborne do much except train night elves in Feralas, send you on a couple of quests in Stonetalon to talk with ghosts - I figured that people would see the nightborne and use them and Suramar as measuring stick to guage the level of night elven arcana.

Little did i know, that they would be so stunned, some would forget that the nightborne were night elven altogether and think of them as somethign completely different, not all, but some ofc. I just lol.

their arcane mastery should be roughly similar to the nightborne and I would wager they should be ahead,

Except we can see advancements. Their primary field of teleportation magic is nothing we have ever seen before from any race.

Blizzard could have given this to the Shen'dralar, but they chose not to.

both cities continued using the arcane

One still does, because it's got active citizens. Dire Maul is nothing but a ruin and is almost completely abandoned.

We haven't seen the what the highborne are capable off yet

We have. Weak arcane constructions that the High (later blood) Elves outlawed many years before the Second War, hence why they were beaten so easily in Azshara. Now these were not just students, who only had a few months practice, the Highborne themselves were present.

Blood Elves are advancing in ways that go above and beyond expectations when it comes to the arcane. The Nightborne are following suit with their leyline scrying abilities and their skills with telemancy.

Dire Maul only fell to ruins 200 years ago, so for nearly 10k years it would have been similar to Suramar.

Irrelevant.

Still in ruins today. Still almost completely forgotten, barring Estulan's school (and they aren't much) and is nothing to Silvermoon or Suramar.

OMG, you are racist against night elves.

Because I say "no" to Night elf arcana, that's being racist? Do me a favor..

The nightborne should be able to balance this out with chronomancy.

No, because that spellweaving was only gifted by the Nightwell.

The Nightborne have their special ways with leyline expertise and telemancy. Skills that the Shen'dralar seemingly don't possess.

Hardly a feat of strength given the grand scale on what the Blood Elves had accomplished.

scrying on everyone else in the world.

Source this.

the shen'dralar were feverishly studying the arcane

And also saying that the arcane that they had been studying paled in comparison to that of the races of Azeroth, like Blood Elves, Humans and Draenei.

Face the facts, the Shen'dralar will never be these amazing spellcasters - not when the competition is so grand that Nightborne, Blood Elves, Void Elves, Humans and Draenei are far more superior with the art.

I think this whole sudden obsessiveness with the abandoned night elf mage culture is simply borne out of denial for not recieving the nightborne on alliance side.

It is simply not realistic for the treehuggers to do a 180 and suddenly ferverishly embracing all what they once loathed and distruted. Not as long the nelf power-couple STILL runs things. As long they are there, nelves will never be anything but treehuggers.

They had a chance to go in a new direction, but Malfurion's plot armor was too strong.

Because I say "no" to Night elf arcana, that's being racist? Do me a favor..

Because you think night elves are inferior to blood elves. You acknowledge nightborne are superior, but then spoil it by trying to pretend that they aren't a night elven sub-race or connected to the night elves.

So yeah, racist against night elves. You keep trying to argue that night elves shouldn't have arcane expertise for very ridiculous reasons, and that they should remain forest elves because their forte is druidsm, you ignore all the other indications that there is more to night elves than the forest all in some attempt to paint night elves as not having a patch on your fave race blood elves. I am suspecting you are genuinely afraid of night elves embracing their arcane heritage.. just like the female blood elf in Azshara says - she was terrified of what it would mean for the horde if the night elves embraced their arcane legacy. Her compatriot, the male blood elf you spend a bit more time with, he just mocks and scorns the prospect.

It would see you take their biased view as the actual fact of the situation, and thus keep going on about how night elves shouldn't or wouldn't have an amazing arcane wing.

I think this whole sudden obsessiveness with the abandoned night elf mage culture is simply borne out of denial for not recieving the nightborne on alliance side.

Nah, it's because it's the only aspect of my night elf posts that you and a handful of blood elf posters (the ones that camp these forums) have a problem with.

Theirs is just jealousy, they don't want to be jealous of the ngiht elves and want the blood elves to continue to be superior, they like that hte blood elves are shown to have better magical mastery, equipment, homes etc, and want it to stay that way. So they don't challenge anything about druidsm improving, or female warrior priests improving, just the things they like in the blood elves. And feel the blood elves are in some weird way entitled to be the soul proprietors of that - not realising that boat sailed as soon as night elves were introduced in WC3.

I appreciate that another elven culture/race can exist and can be even more wonderful with magic, but different. I admired that one of the striking things about night elves - who were the original elves, is that all the things you associate with elves - they had and did more intensely, it actually made high elves look like humanised elves, which made sense, since they are the elves that have been around humans and been influenced by them (and vice versa).

But they aren't embracing it on the scale that your headcanon is telling you.

It's young night elves...night elves who were children during the Third War, and they are only pockets who are taking an interest in it. The vast populace have no care for it and do not wish to learn it.

You are totally deluded if you think the night elves are fully embracing their arcane history. Blizzard are not taking them down that route. That's clear in Darkshore. Blizzard have a clear focus on the direction they want to take Night Elves, going forward and it's doesn't involve the arcane what-so-ever.

To be more precise it is the alliance night elves this bias seems to be agianst. You have no problem with night elves when they join the horde i.e. nightborne despite knowing full well this is exactly what kaldorei arcana is, but according to you, it should not be on the "night elves" by which you mean the "alliance night elves" - b/c blood elves have the magic thing (she forgets nightborne) , then later adds, and nightborne = i.e. the horde should have the great arcane magic mastery and the beautiful elven cities, because the alliance elves, well they are teh ones who have been living in ruins and forests, and had teh long period without arcane magic - therefore they are supposed to be in trees and ruins and should never reclaim their arcane heritage

Not my problem, that you don't like the idea of blood elven magi besting night elven magi, despite it being common lore that this sort of thing takes place.

It also makes a lot of sense because it shows the advancements of the blood elves and their expertise with magic, whilst the Highborne have been using easily exploited techniques that were outlawed from Quel'thalas many years prior.

And rightly so since the Highborne are weak and are only just coming up with spellweaving that is somewhat relative today, but is no match for the blood elves. Their constructs were weak.

Evidence?

The elf is arrogant, over confident and full of themselves.. he is literally picking on novices that are a few weeks.. WEEKS into training, to then arrogantly summise this is the extent and magnitude of ALL night elven arcana - is ofc something only an ARROGANT FOOL would presume. But the horde is written as talking down their enemies, calling them fools, simpletons, savages, idiots, weaklings - you are not supposed to take that LITERALLY, you are ssupposed to spot that he has just defeated a bunch of novices a few weeks into training, and you are supposed to /facepalm because he is so full of himself, he doesn't realize what an idiot he has made of himself. Now his fellow goblin/orc members would have no idea this is the case. But you as a player, if you have done your homework and read WotA, wc3 manual, and paid attention to the classic quests in Dire Maul, Wolfheart and played the night elf side (levelling alliance) in Teldrassil and Feralas - for starters you would know that night elf arcana 10 k years ago was ahead of everything today, and it's not just Mordant Evenshade that echos this when he says the magic of this age pales in comparison to that of his era.

And knowing that unlike the kaldorei main group his shen'dralar are joining who stopped using the arcane for spells so are completely out of practice / have to start from scratch, or the high elves who had a 3k year long break, and also had to start from scratch, the shen'dralar group, like the nightborne you meet a few years later in legion, have been continuing studying and developing their arcane skills, not only that they've been scrying on the world the whole time, fascinated by knowledge and secrets, indulging their arcane cursiosities and studies - they've not been standing still - you seriously expect that novices a few years into training shows the full sclae?

As i said, blizzard iddn't show us the extent of the shen'dralar abilities, however we do see the Suramar night elves' own, and you can guess that they are there around that level, the differnce being their city fell to ruin 200 years ago because of their "situation" and they have most recently been forced to flee DIre Maul as the sitaution is now untenable, they live it already 200 years in decline, - when Estulan talks of restoring it to the shining bastion of arcana it once was, you have no idea what that looks like. When you visit Suramar, you will now have an idea comparitively what that looks like.

But they aren't embracing it on the scale that your headcanon is telling you.

Exactly what is my "headcanon" telling me.

I have little confidence you are actually understanding what I'm saying and what I mean. I keep having to correct you and undo the mis-interpreations, twists etc, like constantly.

Now I am apparently thinking the night elves are embracing the arcane on some scale that is headcanon. You must elaborate then. How is me saying the night elves are embracing the arcane (which is a direct quote from source material btw) measured on some scale i never gave?

I could call that headcanon from you, but that's not what the term is used for.