Sunday, August 19, 2007

Geeking Out

I don't know what's wrong with me. Maybe I'm going through a compulsive phase. Maybe I'm getting too much sleep. Maybe the Moon is in the Seventh House, strummin' on the old banjo.

For whatever reason, lately I keep finishing things.

Abigail's Tulip Jacket is complete.

All the reports you hear of this being a fun and rewarding little project are accurate. What can I say? In putting it together, Dream in Color hit all the right notes: detail sufficient to keep things interesting, yet simplicity enough to knit in public or with company. And did I mention the spectacular yarn? Do I even have to?

Is There a German in the Haus?

I'm re-reading an old favorite, Thomas Mann's Buddenbrooks: The Decline of a Family. If you haven't read it, do. It's a sort of Biedermeier soap opera, told in scenes that seldom speak above a polite murmur or move faster than a brisk trot–yet it packs a cumulative wallop that will make your ears ring.

My old copy of Buddenbrooks, a Penguin edition if I remember correctly, was lent out in college and never came home. This edition, from Vintage, is a new translation by John E. Woods and I love it. I have very little German beyond the smattering I learned during my time as an opera coach,* so I can't pronounce it faithful or unfaithful to the original; but the stumbles and bumps I recall in the older version are far fewer here.

But this really isn't a book review. I have a question, and I'm hoping a German reader (or a reader who knows German) might be able to offer an answer. At the beginning of Part Six, Chapter Four, I stopped dead in my tracks when I came to this passage:

Madame Buddenbrook happened to be sitting in the landscape room, crocheting with two large wooden needles–a shawl, a blanket, or something of that sort. It was eleven o'clock in the morning.

Huh? Crochet? With...two...needles?

What happened here? Off the top of my head, I can think of three possible scenarios:

Mann, who renders even the finest period details with loving compulsiveness, didn't know the difference between knitting and crochet.

There is (or was) a North German version of crochet that actually used two needles or hooks. I vaguely recall something of the kind in Rutt's A History of Hand Knitting, though I also seem to recall it was French or Spanish and possibly mediaeval. My 19th century dictionary of needlework hasn't turned up anything.

The translator didn't know the difference (or thinks there is no difference) between knitting and crochet, mistranslated the passage, and none of his editors caught it.

I'm not going to be able to sleep soundly until I have an answer. Help, please. I'll send the first person who offers a solid explanation with supporting evidence a sketch.

*And that smattering isn't very useful in a modern setting. Prior to my last visit to Eastern Europe, I told a friend who lives in Frankfurt that if I got into trouble in Vienna I knew to scream "Zu hilfe! Zu hilfe!" (Help me! Help me!), the first words of Mozart's The Magic Flute. He smirked and said that yes, that construction would be very effective if I were being mugged by a time traveler from the late eighteenth century.

104 comments:

Anonymous
said...

My memory of German language (2 years in college) is useless here, however there is a Portuguese method of knitting with needles that look like crochet hooks (in fact there is a Yahoo! group specifically for that method). BTW, loving that Tulip sweater :)

Oh boy, we need to get our hand on the original in German and see what it says. I wonder if there is a copy in the basement.... Someone must have one at the ready and can check. Then we will know if you can eliminate or blame the translation as the reason.

This would disturb me too had I been reading along and hit that bump. In fact it yanked me out of lurkdom to respond. I will continue my research!

I am German, but must admit - maybe to my shame - that I have never read the Buddenbrooks.

Having said that, I agree with akabini's comment that Herr Mann didn't know zip about stricken or häkeln. I have never seen any crochet done with two needles - and I don't think we are talking about some lost needleart called 'two-stick-hooking'.

Also, it might be that I have been born in the wrong century, but the term "Landschaftszimmer" doesn't ring a bell either.

Thusly I have outed myself as a useless, non-Mann-knowing German and am sure that doesn't help you with falling asleep any more easily. On the other hand, it's not really worth losing sleep over, is it?

I'd guess that a Landschaftszimmer is what the English would call a Drawing Room, (or in more modern terms a Living Room), where you could look out at the Garden as you played your Grand Piano, took tea with the Vicar's wife, did your needle work, etc. They had a reception room for all occasions then...

Hi there, I teach German and yes, Mann didn't know crochet from knitting. That one made me stop dead in my tracks too when I saw it. I've had several discussions about knitting in German Lit with students while dealing with Storm... had to do with techniques described in the book. The pro? Knit during an exam you supervise where the kids have to write about a character who's a knitter. That was the one detail they ALL remembered! LOL

I know very little German and am sure akabini is correct but just to be "difficult" you use 2 needles when you make broomstick lace. Or rather a hook and large wooden dowel generally of a broomstick size and afghans and shawls would be something done in this way. http://www.crochetcabana.com/specialty/broomstick_lace_jiffy_lace_.htm

I can't help it, I crocheted for many years before I became and Knitter and when I read "crocheting with two large wooden needles" that is what first came to mind.

I'm no help on the German issue but I do want to comment that your Tulip jacket is gorgeous. The colors appear to be different than the ones on Lettuce Knits and I prefer what I see in your picture. May I ask where you purchased your yarn? Or if you substituted the colors your chose? It's beautiful.

Per my German husband (who, BTW, recognized the sentence in German as being written by Thomas Mann without being given any context other than 'Honey, what does this mean?'):

a) A "Landschaftszimmer" is a room which overlooks a scenic landscape. You would only use this term if you were talking about a VERY big house, to differentiate the room from the sitting room, and the dining room, and the library, etc..

All that I can offer supports what anonymous says. I know that some Portuguese knit with what look like to very long crochet hooks (like afghan hooks). But I think the answer is akabani's. But I love the literary reference!

Cute Tulip sweater that I'm completely unaware of as a rage among knitters. I have to look into this!

A propos of literary knitters ( or crocheters) someone came up to me at our knitting group on Saturday and said "my husband is getting anxious and wants to know at what time heads will roll?" I suppose that's what comes of meeting in a University cafe!

I remember seeing a guild member using a knitting needle, and an afghan hook. She knit one row, crocheted the next row, etc. Which I know is of absolutely no help to you in finding out the name of what she was doing. Sorry.

There's a technique called Tunisian crochet that does alternate rows of knit and crochet. The technique is covered in the second edition of "Knitting in the Old Way" by Gibson-Roberts.

As a knitter from way back and a former English major for three harrowing semesters (oy! Survey of Western Lit! Ayee!) I will say that the vast majority of writers and translators of 'literature' didn't know doodly-squat about needlecrafts or other women's work (unless they were women). The one noteable exception is Tolstoy, who discusses knitting two socks at the same time, in "Anna Karenena". (This led to me having a big argument with the lit prof about whether it was literary license or not, which led to me KNITTING two socks at the same time in class, which led to me getting bonus points and the beginning of my 'question all authority' phase which has yet to die down, lo these twenty years later.)

Well, I'll take AKA bini's translation since I know she went to high school in Germany and was taught to knit by her german relatives (and then she taught me to knit - fancy meeting you here, Karen). I don't think that era in Germany would have been big on doing Tunisian or Portuguese style crafts, if I remember my history correctly. And Mann would probably have thought it beneath him and his station to actually know or research women's crafts.

I vaguely remember from my other life in gardening and collecting gardening books that the European Landscape Room was akin to an English conservatory, a room attached to the house where you could both grow plants in the winter and see the lanscape around your manor house even in bad weather or before dressing for the day, but that would have come from British books, not German.

Lovely Tulip, Franklin. Will you get to the Northwest to photograph knitters?

Darn it, I see I'm too late. I emailed a friend who was likely to have a copy in German and this is his response:

Embarrassingly enough, I DO have Buddenbrooks in German. The verb used is "häkeln", which sure enough means "to crochet" - I barely know what that means in either language, so I checked the dictionary - apparently there's no way it means "to knit".

I think the sweater is lovely. And regarding your knowledge of 'altedeutsch', I was tutored in German by a friend who learn to speak it in Leichtenstein. My poor German prof (when it was my turn to answer a question) used to scratch his head, muttering something about it technically being correct, but not "common" usage.

Just when I was all set to conduct a seance to ask my Grandma -who was from Schleswig Holstein- and presumably knew her hakels from her stricks, there goes akabini with what sounds like a very authoritative opinion.Just by the way, go hakel with your nadel sounds like a rather rude Yiddish admonishment don't you think ;)

Lacis.com has those hooked kniting needles for knitting in the round, they are GREAT for socks. You knit with the crochet hook end and the stitches come off the pointed end just as a DPN would be used. You can also use the pointy ends to knit the heel flap. Love them! Sue F.

Oh, Carson!! "Just by the way, go hakel with your nadel sounds like a rather rude Yiddish admonishment don't you think"I wonder if Delores is as curious as I am about "hooking with two sticks."The tulip sweater is very pretty.

I have been a lurker for 2 weeks as of tonight and, in that time, have read from your first entry through today's. I can only say amazing! Thank you for your wit, honesty, creativity, and humanity.

The Tulip sweater for Abigail is very beautiful as is the photograph. I have enjoyed all your photographs but this one had me squinting through a magnifying glass! You have draped this loving gift over "A Little Garden Calendar" and "Lullaby Land!" Would you please tell us what other books are part of this tableau? Maybe a copy of the photo could be a gift card to Abigail?

As a non-German speaker who has never read the work in question, I have nothing to add to this discussion.

As a person with a degree in literature, though, and based both on your quote and Akabini's analysis, I suspect it's not necessarily a matter of the author not knowing the difference between the two, but of the narrator not knowing or caring about the difference. It's possible that Mann juxtaposed the name of one craft with the tools and methods for another deliberately, to further demonstrate the narrator's disregard for Madame Buddenbrook and her activities. Given the tone of the passage and your mention of Mann's lovingly compulsive delivery of period details, I suspect this is the actual explanation.

Although the grandmother who taught me to knit grew up in Germany, I never heard of knitting with two hooked needles from her. I have heard of hooked needles for knitting, I believe on the knit list, back when I had a little extra time to read it. I don't remember any details.

However, I did run across this demonstration of the Portuguese method of knitting on YouTube. I've never seen such a thing before or since. I'm really happy she put it up there. http://www.youtube.com/user/kittyninha

I know in Japan the term ami (knit) is used interchangably for knit or crochet. Alot of books of crochet patterns often have in the title the term (in english) 'knit' not 'crochet' Perhaps it's that type of thing?

Also, a quick google search came up with many refernces to hooks as "crochet needles" including a mysterious reference to circular crochet needles (aparently they are used like double ended hooks)

Though after reading the other comments I'm sure that information is irrelevent!

Throwing in my zwei Pfennige, I'm a German-language translator and I agree with Akabini's evaluation. Häkeln is crochet, Stricken is knitting, and it looks like the fault lies with the writer, not the translator.

Although believe me, I know exactly how much room there is for misinterpretation in translation, and I translate technical stuff, not even literature!

Looks like the German question has been well answered by several astute readers. On a related note, in the english translation of the japanese movie "Spirited Away" there are several misused fiber terms in a row in a scene where characters are spinning yarn and then possibly plying or braiding it into a hair tie. I discovered that at least in the case of that movie, english subtitles are translated by a different person or team of people than spoken english dialogue. I watched again with english sound and english captions to discover that the captions (which were a more literal translation) were accurate, only the spoken dialogue was messed up. Sloppy translation because they liked the sound of other words better? I wonder.

I am originally a German by blood, birth and upbringing and the offspring of a long line of crocheting and knitting women ( even though I myself do not crochet and have chosen knitting as my passion )...I would doubt very much that the lady of the house would have even crocheted ( I never know the past tense of crochet and have no dictionary ) with one very large wooden crochet hook.During the Biedermeyer era the hook would have been most like out of silver, bone or ivory and would have been small, because women did lace borders of handkerchieffs and towels and lace items in general....no big hook required.Also, as a German time traveller and in case of an attack I would have screamed " zur Hilfe " and not " zu Hilfe " which IMHO is grammatically wrong.But then, I am from South-Western Germany...and maybe we scream " zur Hilfe " while the rest of Germany does not......

The following is from http://www.florilegium.org/files/TEXTILES/crochet-FAQ.html

It's not very specific but perhaps the person who wrote the page can be of mere help.

Hooks and hooked needles do not necessarily have anything to do with crochet. There is often a hook at the top of the shaft of a drop spindle, for instance, to hold the working thread. Hooks of various sizes and shapes have many uses, and it can't be assumed that a "hook" mentioned in an inventory has anything to do with needlework, even if it is in with other needlework tools or clothing. For instance, Queen Mary Tudor's inventory mentions "hooks" that turn out to be short curved pieces with no handles, like the small hooks we hang pictures on. Knitting needles too have often been hooked, and in some cultures still are.

I see everyone has already commented in detail, and correctly, on the "häkeln" issue. Amazing the like-minded people one finds on this blog.

Your "Zu Hilfe!" reminds me of my husband's experience when we went to a friend's wedding in Bavaria. My husband patiently sat through countless humorous skits, all in German, but I blanched when the father of the bride got up and made a toast that lasted nearly as long as "Götterdämmerung." However, my husband said afterwards that that was the only part of the evening he could follow, since it was all about Liebe und Treue und Ewigkeit and he understood all that from his experience of German Lieder.

I'm with you on the finishing things. I recently finished off a pair of socks, then baby Alanna's Tulip sweater, then a linen handtowel that's been on the needles for AGES. I just frogged and restarted what was going to be a Fiona bag for my 5 year old daughter, but now I'm redesigning it extensively. I have the feeling that I need to finish up a lot of the ongoing projects before I start new ones.

These comments were all very very interesting and funny.I've read the Buddenbrooks a while ago, definitely have to pick up that book again.Somebody mentionned above that knitting adn crocheting were the same words in Russian. To throw in my two kopecks, actually, yes and no.To knit is вязать (viazat') in russian, crochet is вязать крючком, which means something like 'to knit with a crochet'.

Not that you need another opinion, but Country Mouse's explanation was the first that occurred to me as well when reading your post -- that the author likely knew quite well what the difference was but the narrator, speaking with that dismissive tone, did not. I've never heard of the work or author in question, and despite degrees in music and linguistics managed to avoid German almost entirely, but it seems likely to me that an author as attentive to detail as you mention would only do this deliberately as part of characterization.

Lacis in Berkeley sells the Portuguese knitting needles. They are a museum AND a retail and wholesale store (everything historically needlework related) and if you are ever out California way they are worth checking out. Then you can have lunch at Cha-ya (vegan Japanese) or Herbivore (awesome vegan everything.)

I am not a knitter; I crochet. Yes, there are certain types of stitches that use two hooks, as well as types that use double ended hooks. Traditional Irish crochet uses two needles, producing raised rosettes.

Landschaftszimmer (Landscape Room) is, I think, a room with the walls painted or papered with the scene of an idealized landscape, muted and more orderly than the actual outdoors.

i've no knowledge of germany, and the topic has pretty much been thoroughly covered anyhow...

however, re what knitica said... "I watched again with english sound and english captions to discover that the captions (which were a more literal translation) were accurate, only the spoken dialogue was messed up. Sloppy translation because they liked the sound of other words better? I wonder."my 2 cents... it's my understanding that generally the subtitles translation is more accurate (though still often not completely accurate, as it is always open to translator interpretation), but with the dub, you generally want the sound to match up with the movement of the mouths (think back to old kung-fu movies where the speaking would continue when no one was moving their mouths). since it's not really an option to redo the animation for all the translations, they generally make do with terminology that fits visually (and maybe only somewhat keeps in line with the gist of the original language).

That's it. You have to meet my friend and get married and live happily ever after now. He loves German lit, especially Mann. Germany and Eastern Europe are his favorite places to travel.

On another note, I want to clarify the comments about Russian--the verb viazat' literally means something like to tie (knots). The verb or the noun viazanie without context can refer to either crochet or knitting. There is a magazine in Russia called Viazanie that publishes patterns for both. If it is necessary clarify which technique is being used, Russians specify by saying viazanie kriuchkom (literally: tying with a hook) or viazanie spitsami (literally: tying with needles). For example, if I mentioned to an acquaintence that one of my "hobbies" is viazanie, he or she would immediately ask "with a hook or with needles?"

I raised your query with my half-German cousin, who also has a degree in German and Norwegian from the University of Newcastle (in the UK), and he had this to say about the Landschaftzimmer, "Peter Thornton, our lecturer at Newcastle Uni asked the very same question. The answer - obvious when you hear it - it that the room walls were adorned with landscape paintings ... so the family dubbed it the Landschaftzimmer. A more sophisticated version of "the blue room", I suppose. In Buddenbrooks the Landshaftszimmer was the room where the family "received" guests. Talk about Biedermeier!"

Having no German, but loving Buddenbrooks enough to have read it 4 times in the earlier translation (love the Woods) I'm with Countrymouse. The early chapters are told, by the unreliable narrator, in the narrator's version of the children's experience. Young Toni and her brothers didn't particularly care what their grandma was doing in the landscape room--the drawing room painted with pastoral murals.

That's my story and I sticking with it. Yikes!--it's been over 5 years since my last re-reading of Buddenbrooks. Gotta go...

No clue translation wise, but I can add something croknit or knitchet wise along the way. I've no idea how to use them or where they hail from, but I have in my circular needle collection a set with two crochet hooks for the ends. Obviously, given they're circulars with the nylon cable and all, they're fairly new, and obviously enough someones, somewheres knew how to use them to warrant mass production. Now to try and find out some more about them...

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