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From May 20 through June 3rd, there is to be no discussion of US politics. All existing threads on the subject will be closed. People can start new ones once the hiatus is over. See the thread in Trouble Tickets for more info.

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Registered User

I think the main issue I always had was that it was pretty difficult to actually do any damage in unarmed combat. Typical character with Agi+1, Unarmed Lev 2, had an Unarmed DM of maybe...x5? You'd need MOS3+ to wound a standard unarmored guy with 13/25/50 Stamina. You were generally likely to get MOS of 1-2 most of the time.

That said....one of my favorite "that time the players derailed the entire campaign in the first session..." stories is because the martial artist-optimized character rolled 8-9, and his target fumbled. And the other guy ate an Overkill result.

Which would have been cool, if the guy wasn't a no-name incidental security guy manning the nightclubs back office. All because they wanted to turn off the security cameras while they met the Johnson for the Job. But it sort of escalated from there, up to and including a declaration of "no witnesses" and sneaking into the hospital to take care of the other surviving guard (who got KOd with a taser).

Car drives me!

I made unarmed combat damage cumulative, so that after a few hits, the martial artist can start really murdering people. But it was something I only implemented very late, about six years ago, and never really tested fully.

How unarmed damage interacted with other damage was basically GM fiat. And I think I had the player choose between cumulative or normal damage for a hit. This way, you could still reliably kill people with hand to hand techniques, but it was only really worthwhile if you could sneak up on them (defence roll of 0). And armoured opponents were to be avoided...which kinda made sense anyways.

Registered User

I think the main issue I always had was that it was pretty difficult to actually do any damage in unarmed combat. Typical character with Agi+1, Unarmed Lev 2, had an Unarmed DM of maybe...x5? You'd need MOS3+ to wound a standard unarmored guy with 13/25/50 Stamina. You were generally likely to get MOS of 1-2 most of the time.

I didn't really have a problem with that, since the examples given for Flesh Wounds in the "Stamina and Describing Wounds" section on page 56 of HG2E lists cracked ribs, broken noses, twisted articulations, and deep cuts, while page 105 adds mild concussions. That's not something an average person is going to do on a regular basis with a hit. Deep Wounds are things like fractured bones, punctured lungs, and torn ligaments. To look at it from a lens of combat sports (boxing, mixed martial arts, etc), a Flesh Wound has a fair chance of ending a match. A Deep Wound will end a match.

Also, that typical character will have UD of 5 plus or minus their Build and Strength. Agility only affects the odds of hitting (through modifying the Hand-to-Hand skill); it has no effect on Unarmed Damage. The base Infantry Soldier from HG2E has Hand-to-Hand 1 and UD 6 because of +1 BLD and +1 STR. GRELs range from UD 8 to UD 13, so they're quite capable of disabling ordinary humans quickly.

Registered User

I didn't really have a problem with that, since the examples given for Flesh Wounds in the "Stamina and Describing Wounds" section on page 56 of HG2E lists cracked ribs, broken noses, twisted articulations, and deep cuts, while page 105 adds mild concussions. That's not something an average person is going to do on a regular basis with a hit. Deep Wounds are things like fractured bones, punctured lungs, and torn ligaments. To look at it from a lens of combat sports (boxing, mixed martial arts, etc), a Flesh Wound has a fair chance of ending a match. A Deep Wound will end a match.

Which is all fine and dandy (unarmed not likely to cause a real Wound), but it makes Unarmed combat kind of a pointless strategy narratively and mechanically, which kind of runs a little bit against the action movie style space that the game wants to inhabit (and usually handles pretty well).

In most genre fiction where "there is a single guard in front of the truck you need to escape the compound" the answer is usually to KO the guard with an Unarmed move. Which doesn't work in Silhouette. That's really my issue...

Registered User

I think the main issue I always had was that it was pretty difficult to actually do any damage in unarmed combat. Typical character with Agi+1, Unarmed Lev 2, had an Unarmed DM of maybe...x5? You'd need MOS3+ to wound a standard unarmored guy with 13/25/50 Stamina. You were generally likely to get MOS of 1-2 most of the time.

That said....one of my favorite "that time the players derailed the entire campaign in the first session..." stories is because the martial artist-optimized character rolled 8-9, and his target fumbled. And the other guy ate an Overkill result.

Which would have been cool, if the guy wasn't a no-name incidental security guy manning the nightclubs back office. All because they wanted to turn off the security cameras while they met the Johnson for the Job. But it sort of escalated from there, up to and including a declaration of "no witnesses" and sneaking into the hospital to take care of the other surviving guard (who got KOd with a taser).

I can't recall 2nd Edition off the top of my head, but did you check out SilCore? If you are more skilled than the enemy, then you should be able to easily take them out. Aiming at a vital location is only Cx2 (according to the 2004 errata). That assumes a punch to the lower chest, trying to hit their heart or lungs. Even if you have no special training in hand-to-hand, you can halve the target's wound thresholds with just a -1 penalty. If those areas are covered with armour, then you will need to go for face or jugular, which is Cx4. If you have a decent Cx of 3, then you are only at -1 penalty in this case. Of course, if your Cx is at least as good or higher, you are looking at no penalty or maybe even a bonus to hit. If you specialized in a hand-to-hand combat technique (jiu jitsu or whatever), then there is another +1.

Moreover, you can use Deception Attacks to bump the opponent down to Unskilled, making them fumble 33% of the time. If you have at least Cx2, then you can do a fast attack at the same time, giving the opponent two chances to fumble (now at 66%). Of course if they do fumble, that means you get a free attack (without penalty), in addition to any damage you dish out. Taking an offensive stance makes your attack even stronger, or even a focused stance if you are confident you will take him out in one round.

SilCore also mentions martial arts techniques, but doesn't cover any in the core rulebook. There were a whole bunch given as options in the 2004 errata. Here are some more, just off the top of my head:

Sleeper Move (Cx 2): If attack succeeds, target counts as grappled and must pass a Health test at the end of each round with a cumulative -1 penalty for every round he has remained grappled (including the first). The target is rendered unconscious for 2d6 minutes if the test is failed.

Roundhouse Kick (Cx 3): If attack succeeds, damage is UD+5 and target is knocked back prone. Attacker suffers -1 penalty to initiative for the next round.

Neck-snapper (Cx 4): If attack succeeds, target is dead. If the attack is fumbled, the attacker is thrown to the ground prone. May only be attempted against an unwary opponent.

There is also all the genre-points, reality distortion factor and so on rules if you want to just make mooks that are easily dispatched. You could make it a kung-fu fighting game if you wanted to (see, for instance, the rules for special effects—the game basically becomes like the Feng Shui RPG). In general, though—and particularly in a gritty, "hard" sci-fi campaign—I would always recommend bringing at least a knife to a fistfight, and always, always attack the target unawares and from behind. All you need to do to hit a surprised target from behind is not fumble, as their total defense would be a flat -1. If you can approach them in the dark while wearing night vision goggles, all the better!

Registered User

Yeah, SilCore added a bunch of stuff, but unfortunately for me, by the time it came out I was in the middle of The Great Gaming Dry Spell after I graduated and started my first real job in a much smaller town. So I never got to play it, even though I was a playtester...

Action Cartographer!

This new discussion has me thinks about my own tweaks to the Silhouette rules. I like the skill breakdown in the D6 rules, so I’m thinking of using the same attributes (Dexterity, Mechanical, Knowledge, etc.) and skill distribution to the HG Second Edition rules, though I haven’t worked out the number of points yet.
I agree that Silhouette doesn’t seem as durable for long-term play, but I still like a lot of what was done. I hope to get more use out of it.

Registered User

I've put up the Private Investigator conversion at Vespers War, and should have the Mordred Shocktrooper up either tomorrow or some time this weekend. I get a bit of a noir feeling from the fact that the PI's Brawling/Unarmed Martial Arts skill is as good as their Forensic/Investigation.

Registered User

I plan to run Tribe 8 soon, maybe this summer. By the way the edition of the silhouette corebook in Spanish is highly disapointing, and the idea of not including the core rules in the Tribe 8 manual has condemn this game in the Spanish market.