INTJ: How do others see you? (ISFJ mom's opinion of me)

I've read all the "right" responses to this question... but I'm asking more of a one-on-one, "this is how someone said they see me" question.

My mom thinks I need too much privacy; that I can't let anyone see me fail and I like to be seen as tough.

She thinks my soul is superficial. She actually said that. I'm not offended but I do wonder how much of this is her ISFJ not-able-to-seeness.

(She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

I am so baffled. Different does not mean "less than" or "greater than" it simply means different.

But it made me think: how do you see INTJs? What do you think of their abstract ideas and depth of soul? What do you think about INTJs and feeling?

*You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
*Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
C.S. Lewis

My INTJ daughter doesn't show much emotion and she isn't very open about what she thinks of feels. I just figure still waters run deep and she'll share when and if she feels like it. I don't think my INFP daughter is any deeper because, to me, her feelings seem more fleeting. Feelings that are not sustained seem shallow to me. So for whatever that's worth.

Edit: Oh. Sorry. I'm not an INTJ.

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” ~ John Rogers

My mom thinks I need too much privacy; that I can't let anyone see me fail and I like to be seen as tough... She thinks my soul is superficial...(She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

Well, I do think some of it is because you are not "like your mom" and so she reads that as superficiality. Anything that encourages a palpable bond between people and feelings of caring is seen as good, so what you do is "not as good."

Your brother, the INFP, naturally reaches out to others and affirms them on a personal and often emotional level, affirming the relationship and talking in TERMS of the relationship... so your ISFJ mom sees that easily and feels what he does for her. He has an easy pass -- who he is meshes very easily with her, compared with who you are.

It's harder because you are female, so you not only have the INTJ thing going but your mom probably feels like you are not "female enough" like she is, in terms of speaking in terms of relational values and people's feelings. You probably do come across as cold to her.

ISFJs, unless broadened immensely by experience, have a very very hard time seeing UNDER the surface; they see all the surface stuff first, the similarities and the differences, and those hold the most power over her opinions.

To be honest, she probably just wants to "FEEL" close to you. That means being involved in your life, being able to help you when you've got needs, being able to give things to you, being able to chat about personal details of your day and how they left you feeling, and all of those fun things. She needs a very tangible relationship with you to feel close to you. Since she is not getting those cues from you, she feels distant and so she is criticizing you. Is there anything you can do to involve her more, if you want to develop that relationship? ISFJs like to feel needed and included; they like to support others in tangible and often practical ways.

What do I think of INTJs personally? They can sometimes feel "colder" than me, and more demanding, and more distant/impersonal in some ways. They seem focused on closure and getting things done, rather than playing around and exploring, and sometimes this is stifling. Sometimes they seem very driven. They are also very autonomous and seem self-reliant and not open to help, unless they are in charge of asking for things.

But all of that is from the perspective of an INTP, and INTJs are not me... so I can't say they are "bad" because they are not like me. Just different.

Really, as far as your mother goes, I would just think to yourself about what allowances you could make to connect with her in small ways she'd "get." Your strengths probably feel too impersonal or abstract for her to discuss easily, she just doesn't have the interest or capability for prolonged periods of time, if at all. If you can do small tangible things to affirm the relationship (ask your brother to advise you?), maybe that will help her relax and start to accept that you are who you are, and see value in it.

It's not easy, so don't feel bad you're having trouble.

"Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

“Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

(She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

It's only not as deep to her because she cannot see it. They may have less soul on average in that by nature they may not be as natural at singing the blues. I like the way INTJ minds work. I tend to respect INTJs. They tend to seem curious about me rather than making assumptions.

Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors. Fear of reality creates myopic moralitySo I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
(from Blue Velvet)

Well, I can actually seem more extraverted when I'm talking with people -- particularly if I know them reasonably well. Still, some people don't take kindly to my "off-the-wall" behavior and comments and people think I'm arrogant.

When I observe other people, they seem to be amused by things that I just don't understand, but everyone seems disgusted when I'm amused by the things they don't understand -- such as my perspective on the world.

You won't believe how many people I pissed off when I said that Valentine's Day was really about death -- I mean, why else would a heart be pierced by an arrow?

I just honestly don't see the point in things other people do -- such as parties, sports, clothes, etc.

Hell, I am actually quite baffled when these kids shows talk about how important friendships are. People ask me what I do with other friends and when I reply that I don't really have friends -- it pisses me off when other people respond: "That's sad."

The truth is, though, I don't really see the point of developing friendships unless the other person is useful in some way.

You won't believe how many people I pissed off when I said that Valentine's Day was really about death -- I mean, why else would a heart be pierced by an arrow?

For the life of me I can't see why anyone would be pissed off by that - 1) what's there to be pissed off about? and 2) why does it matter? It's a day in the year. And that isn't me empathizing with an INTJ. It's just quite plainly a stupid response.

Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer

it pisses me off when other people respond: "That's sad."

Ah yes, ah yes...this morning, in the shower, I recomposed one of Browning's sonnets in my head...ESFP's, how do you annoy me? Let me count the ways...this little gem was high on the list.

Anyway, that hasn't added much to the conversation. So a question: do people find you arrogant because you are?

You won't believe how many people I pissed off when I said that Valentine's Day was really about death -- I mean, why else would a heart be pierced by an arrow?

That sounds like something my kid would go around saying. :yim_rolling_on_the_ I think it's funny, but I would argue the point. I'd have to have evidence that the original Saint's Day had something to do with death or the symbol of the heart with an arrow through it was a symbol of death. My kid would stick to her guns and I would stick to mine and eventually, she would roll her eyes, say "whatever . . . " and go back to her computer, and I would laugh. She is a delightful child.

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” ~ John Rogers

That's funny about "Valentine's day is really about death." I can see my brother saying that. It wouldn't piss me off; it'd make me laugh because it's cute in a sort of nerdishly defiant way.

I do think that some of the things he's said in the past were very sad--things like you describe about not having friends and not wanting them. (He's not like that now.) It's sad because he obviously did need friends. He needed approval of people he cares about and admires; he needed their intelligent discussion; he needed to learn how to act appropriately in social situations so he could use those situations to his advantage; he needed to become a whole person and develop all sides of himself--not just the ones that come easily.

Of course, it's not very nice to tell someone else that their thoughts and views are "sad". Rather patronizing and unkind.

There's feeling there, but it's under layers, tho thankfully not as many layers as for INTPs (we just come across as emotional b/c of the Ne, I think). My observation is that INTJs "warm up" over time and with people they're close to and trust. The display of affection might be non-traditional and unexpected, too, given the dominant Ni.

Te always seems to make Te-preferring folks hard-edged (and I do mean all of them: ISTJ, INTJ, ESTJ, ENTJ).

Mom will just have to patient.

Man, what a raw deal being compared to an INFP for apparent depth of feeling! You need wubbies!

Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis

If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein