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Dear rxd,I use a thick crochet hook, but in order to remove rust from the strings. I release a pin half a turn, and treated with a place in the capo (bar plate). I have not understand out how to reduce the diameter when we are just massage a curve into it hook on the back side of string?

I'm intensively and seriously working to make a temperament. I use the lever and a mute. While the results are negative unfortunately

Can you make a video when you tune an unison ?

I can't make "tune an unison video" now because I have not own camera,sorry

MAx, please do so when it will be possible, so you can have more useful comments.

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

I have just quickly checked 45 very heavily played pianos here that have been tuned with a T- hammer on their last tuning. I had no tuning to do. For me, the speed is marginally faster than anything else I use.

I did this so that I could talk with some authority about my experience.

There is an awful lot of stuff on this forum that really should be prefaced with the words "I would think" or "I imagine".

I am a 6'1 medium build person and perhaps a little stronger than most but by absolutely no means the bodybuilder type. I find that turning a T hammer clockwise takes no more thumb pressure (RH) than it takes on a lever in order to turn a springy pin without springing it. The reverse is usually just to set the pin so doesn't take much.

I use pure pin setting and let the students do my test blows so I don't beat them in. I feel the string instead.

The last time I wrote on this tool, I mentioned that I couldn't make pure turning motions with it. After 10 days of two hours with it every morning, I find that I can turn a pin in smaller and smaller increments without springing it. (eliminating the "marshmallow zone").I don't really know what I'm doing different. More thumb pressure, perhaps?

RXD, may be you should state how many verticals and how many grands, on a grand I feel the T hammer is more easy.

The T hammer is perfect to evaluate how much spring is in the pin itself (in its vertical plane).

Are you stating there is none , or something else ? (the marshmallow zone contains part of that, part of wood springness, and certainly part of flagpole in the non interesting direction)

If you leave tuning blows for the student, you are tuning exactly as I did before learning that other way , exactly

I will try to compare sensations with both levers with a similar final pin setting.

Are you stating that the pin itself cannot be left springy ?

I tend to believe that the thumb used to counteract the flagpolling, may not be very efficient. why ? I dont imagine myself pulling a heavy weight with my thumb pressure.

I have used my thumb on the lever to lower flagpolling for years and still do naturally sometime, but since I have learned to fell the pin in the prolongation of the wire (the sensation of slow pull is that, not opposite to usual method, but the stiffening of the pin is similar to the one of the wire, and in the end the whole system is manipulated as if it was one part, that are the sensations, not the physics, but if you are slow enough when raising and adding stress, you have a feel of total control on the whole system. Very agreable and allow perfect control to the tiniest motions.

The drawback is that the metal of the pin itself seem to ask for some time to settle later, (I said "seem to")

You get to the same firmness with the back and forth motions on the lever until nothing moves.

With the T hammer you may be experimenting the slow pull sensations, in the end ...

In the end when I say the pin is under some torque a little more low than usually, that mean the stress coming from the wire to the tuning pin is braked on a larger zone in the hole.

That mean using the springness of the pinblock and the one from the tuning pin together. the impact forces (shock waves )coming from the string, are then adbsorbed by the friction between the pin and the block more efficiently , on a larger portion of the pin.

It is felt in the pin, the top of the pin is more rigid than with the usual pin setting .

It is heard in the tone (that is proof if any necessary) as the tone is stronger on the fundamental.

Possibly the pin is allowed less back and forth motion, hence a little less Lmode allowed or normal partials, but as I hear a clearing of the high end of the spectra it may well be the Lmodes that are lowered.

There a recording and spectra analysis may show that more accurately (but it is flagrant that a firm pin setting have avery different tone than a minimal one, also, many tuners may have noticed that)

Sorry Max for the OT, but pin setting play a huge role in tone, then in justness, not only on the fact that the note stay clean.

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.

Dear rxd,I never use my home-made T-hammers here. No need it's do but sometime only just original T. When a pin don't turn or very weak

The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn. As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.

my question. Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.

Dear rxd,I never use my home-made T-hammers here. No need it's do but sometime only just original T. When a pin don't turn or very weak

I believe the normal L lever is better for that case also, better control on pin

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn. As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.

my question. Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

When replacing with modern wire yes often less thick is used, but not always.The steel quality was very different, often with phosphorous traces, it gives a very different tone.

Now the steel is clean, but obtained with recycling, while I dont see how it makes a difference in the end.

The carbon in the steel also migrates with time in the wire, (from where to where ?)

so what we hear of old wire today is very different that what it was.

Did you notice that in Eastern countries, some steel wire is having little rust ? or the pianos you see have much rust ?

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

The way you use your T-bar hammer frightens me. The tool you have lends itself to abuse too easily and there are too many bad habits to eradicate. Please stay with the lever for me. I know it is like starting all over again and that is the best thing, right here, right now.

Dear rxd,I never use my home-made T-hammers here. No need it's do but sometime only just original T. When a pin don't turn or very weak

I believe the normal L lever is better for that case also, better control on pin

Isaac,you're lucky that you have never tried tuning soviet pianos end of the fifties

[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn. As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.

my question. Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton

[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn. As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.

my question. Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton

If aceton can clean it, it is very little rust, you could use benzine to clean strings (fluid for lighters) .Rust is strong corrosion.

ABout the pins in soap like pin block, think that if you turn anti clockwise (only a little) then clockwise but VERY slowly , inside the hole some layers of the wood have the fiber that change orientation.

I noticed that doing that move again and again, at some point you begin to have a little grip showing.

Then you can tune

(this is because it is just a braking, as with cars, 2 surfaces and friction between them) the larger the surface the better the friction, if we can obtain that the pin get springy INSIDE the hole, we can set pins even on difficult pianos

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn. As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.

my question. Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton

If aceton can clean it, it is very little rust, you could use benzine to clean strings (fluid for lighters) .Rust is strong corrosion.

The main thing that the string that has the rust has not passed into the zone of plastic deformation

[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn. As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.

my question. Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton

If aceton can clean it, it is very little rust, you could use benzine to clean strings (fluid for lighters) .Rust is strong corrosion.

The main thing that the string that has the rust has not passed into the zone of plastic deformation

Yes, usually you will have enough margin before that, only in the treble the wire is nearer that zone.

But with the aging of the metal in time probably it loose its elasticity enough to get there, indeed

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

[quote=rxd] The T- hammer was used exusively for early instruments. A lever was probably not even considered. the string diameters were thinner, made of brass and smaller pins. Much easier to turn. As wire diameters became thicker in pianos and higher tensions were beginning to be used, a T-hammer was still sufficient.

my question. Modern standart diameter strings changed, it became thicker. If so, the old piano with thicker strings had a different voice (tembr).It's a more noble and subdued. Thin strings are more prone fast to loose of tone. Is this so?

or the pianos you see have much rust ?I'm afraid "rust string of piano". It's damage should be cleans with aceton

ABout the pins in soap like pin block, think that if you turn anti clockwise (only a little) then clockwise but VERY slowly , inside the hole some layers of the wood have the fiber that change orientation.

I do so. I pull out the tip of the string out of the hole pin. After with slight pressure on the pin doing 2-3 turns clockwise use T-bar. (Or unscrew pin on 2-3 turns) A pin in pinblock to introduce a few engages the part of the wood is not worked out a pinblocka and a bush. I'm to install the tip string and to make the tone. Sometimes it helps

MAX, the more you turn the pin counter clock wise, the more you "sand" the hole in the worst direction. possibly on the video you could do the same, take out the string then screw the pin, but experience showed me (and others) that it is more efficient to tap on the pin with a hammer without taking the wire out.

A tool to avoid the fast untwisting of the pin when it is tapped is better than tapping it only. I have such a tool with a "plunge" - may be one of your tuning hammers could to that too (I will send a picture)

then insert the pin may be 1 or 2 mm, you will have enough fresh wood o make the tuning pin firm (usually for some time, but with a better pin setting technique it can be a very long time)

Last edited by Olek; 02/04/1312:27 PM.

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Thanks for the video, Isaac, it looks much the same as I did including using a slightly longer lever and changing grip according to the feel of the pin and string. Our Asian colleagues have taught us what else is possible.

I only tune uprights about once every 6 months now, including one today, as it happens. I didn't have my long lever with me but, because there was a bookshelf at the treble end, I did try my left hand, Johnkie. I was hopelessly inept being years since I last did that with any regularity.

Yes I use thumb pressure to stop the springy pin springing and it turns while retaining the set. I think you and I talked about this before.

I agree. I don't like setting pins further into the block but if it must be done, 1-2mm is enough if it hasn't been done before. I find pins close to the plate take more time and a different technique.

I'll return to this thread when these strange things being done to the stringing are done with.

I dont hesitate to tune verticals, but not doing my day on that job... the ones I have sold, or people I know , etc..

Here is that useful tool Max,

the opening is square, and the part where you tap with hammer is moving inside.

With that tool the tuning pin does not make 1/4 turn back when you hammer it.

AS said Rxd OK if there is enough space under the coils, and no more than 1-2 mm

the wire is not pulling on the tuning pin in the same direction when the pins are more deep. if the angle is too strong they will be more difficult to set . on some piano it is better not to tap the pins for that reason.

(basically the wire is providing its so useful tension more on the middle of the pin when the coils are lower, so the pin brake even more on its upper part than usually

Back to my keys !!

Last edited by Olek; 02/04/1301:36 PM.

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

The upright I tuned yesterday, I first met some 7 years ago. I was tuning their new Boston grand and was asked to take a look at it.

It was not tuneable because of very loose tuning pins. Being a family instrument, it was put in a small room upstairs until it could be repaired. Nothing was done to it for a year or so.

I was asked to take another look at it and I found it tuneable so I tuned it. That was 5-6 years ago. The piano was used as a practice piano. I tuned it again yesterday and the piano was on pitch and perfectly tuneable like any other piano. It would have been hard to believe had I not seen some old American uprights that had spent the 50's and 60's in fierce central heating and became untuneable but when the energy crunch and brown outs came in the mid to late '70's, many of them became tuneable and gradually returned to normal because the central heating had been turned down.

So, Max, it could be worth moving the piano to another room that may be a better atmosphere for the piano.

So, Max, it could be worth moving the piano to another room that may be a better atmosphere for the piano.

Pianos are the most surprising things.

rxd,I agree that climate for the piano is basic. However, where Max lives in the winter the temperature drops to -40 degrees C. In the summer, four months in a row above +35. The piano does not live and it's survive

I agree. I don't like setting pins further into the block but if it must be done, 1-2mm is enough if it hasn't been done before. I find pins close to the plate take more time and a different technique.

I have to clarify, Max also likes these procedures, he hates it. However, this is a forced measure, and sometimes helps in the treatment of the piano. In some cases, need to twist off the pin. Often immersed it's to 2 mm hole in the bush

the wire is not pulling on the tuning pin in the same direction when the pins are more deep. if the angle is too strong they will be more difficult to set . on some piano it is better not to tap the pins for that reason.

Isaac I agree with you.on some piano it is better not to tap the pins for that reason.

The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.

You looks as you have undertood how to listen when playing, that is a big step, seem to me.

Then , sorry but you are doing only the first half of the move with the Lever, that is why the notes move a little later.

We all tune from above, not from under. On that note I would have changer the lever orientation for a more vertical position to "set the pin" , pushing a little on the lever the other direction.

That mean you need to raise the note a little above then let the pin spring back (You feel the springiness of the pin, dont' you ?)

you feel the pin deforms a little , then move, the deformation must be the other direction for the pin to stay put.

it is difficult to explain

Greetings

P.S. I see you play other notes at a moment, this is to freshen your ears probably, I suggest that to clean your ears, you pluck with your plectra) a few high treble strings.This is often done and is a a glass of fresh lemonade for the ears whan they get tired. Playing the other notes helps only a little (particularely when they have moved)

Keep courage, you are on the good track

Last edited by Olek; 02/14/1305:17 AM.

Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!