In the passage where the New Testament says that everyone must work, it gives a reason 'in order that he may have something to give to those in need'. Charity - giving to the poor - is an essential part of Christian morality: in the frightening parable of the sheep and the goats it seems to be a point on which everything turns. Some people nowadays say that charity ought to be unnecessary and that instead of giving to the poor we ought to be producing a society in which there is no poor to give to. They may be quite right in saying that we ought to produce this kind of society. But if anyone thinks that, as a consequence, you can stop giving in the meantime, then he has parted company with all Christian morality.

I agree with C.S. Lewis not only because it's what the Bible teaches but because it works. It has for me anyway. My A.A. sponsor is a multimillionaire and he and his family took me in and was charitable to me. I had nothing. Now I am back into the workforce working. It took time but I'm able to function and communicate and relate to people now. Moreover I have the things that need to be in place (like a new truck) to be in the workforce. Because of the charity of this Catholic man I am where I'm at today. I haven't completely arrived yet but I'm on my way!!

“Things come to the poor that can’t get in at the door of the rich. Their money somehow blocks it up. It is a great privilege to be poor – one that no man covets, and brat a very few have sought to retain, but one that yet many have learned to prize.” — George MacDonald

The worldly man treats certain people kindly because he “likes” them: the Christian, trying to treat every one kindly, finds himself liking more and more people as he goes on--including people he could not even have imagined himself liking at the beginning

C. S. Lewis wrote:--including people he could not even have imagined himself liking at the beginning

That may well be true, to where “the Christian” has finally come to the same non-judgmental place as the altruistic “worldly man” who “likes” just because he can, having not been hampered in his earthly walk by the critical ‘spirit of superiority’.

“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”

This is why the Bible tells us whatever we do we do all to the glory of God. God gets the glory in our giving to the poor. This keeps our ego from inflating. Indeed it says:

So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.…Matt 6:2-4

I encourage financial experts and political leaders to ponder the words of [Saint John Chrysostom], one of the sages of antiquity: "Not to share one's wealth with the poor is to steal from them and to take away their livelihood. It is not our own goods which we hold, but theirs. ~~ Pope Francis

St. Michael wrote:I encourage financial experts and political leaders to ponder the words of [Saint John Chrysostom], one of the sages of antiquity: "Not to share one's wealth with the poor is to steal from them and to take away their livelihood. It is not our own goods which we hold, but theirs. ~~ Pope Francis

St. Michael, No offence but I have to disagree with the Pope. I wouldn't consider not sharing one's wealth with the poor as stealing from them. The goods belong to the person who has worked and earned them. If that person chooses to give, it would be charity, which is a gift given freely from the heart.

Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

God commands us to give:

Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” Luke 14:12-14

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ~~ Matthew 25:42-46

The paradox is that we are commanded to do it with joy so that it's not under compulsion:

Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Cor. 9:7

Last edited by St. Michael on Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Most of us struggle with being generous, because we focus on ourselves, and our limited supplies. We all need more revelation about the magnitude of divine supply to meet earthly demands.

I think the three little words “It is finished” (two in Spanish: “Consumado es”; one in Greek: “Tetelestai”), will continue to be unpacked, forever. We will never come to the end of the treasures Jesus has made available to us through his obedience. It cost Jesus everything, but it’s all free for us to receive, now. God’s style is always, “Whoever desires, let him take…freely.” Rev. 22:17.

Regarding giving to the poor, and being generous with all our resources in general, let me again promote here something termed... “The Divine Exchange.”

Isaiah 53 indicates that Messiah would TAKE our sin and suffering, and GIVE us his righteousness and shalom (shalom being variously translated as “health,” “prosperity,” “safety,” “contentment,” “friendship,” and “peace”). He has done that.

The heavenly resources available to us are UNLIMITED. The laws of the “greater reality” of the Kingdom of Heaven transcend the laws of the “lesser reality” of this Creation, as demonstrated by Jesus, the disciples, and the apostles. So, as Christians, let’s “go and do likewise,” and not fixate on, or be limited by, the Laws of Medicine, the Laws of Physics, the Laws of Economics, et cetera.

I remind you of the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, with this interpretation of the players:

The Father: GodThe Older Son: The JewsThe Prodigal Son: The Gentiles

Recall that when the older brother heard the celebration the Father was giving for the Prodigal, “he became angry, and refused to go in.” But his Father came out to reason with him, and clarified to him:

“ ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.’ ” Luke 15:31.

“Everything” means everything, and “is yours” is present tense, meaning now. We are talking about free, unlimited resources we Christians can, by faith, supernaturally receive and share! (Let me add that these divine unlimited resources, besides material things, also include love, wisdom, time, and energy, and power.)

-Luke 16:9 I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when you leave this place they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

-2 Cor. 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich [and now we are].

-2 Cor. 9:11 YES, WE WILL BE enriched in every way [or “in every thing”] so that we can always be generous on every occasion, and our generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

-3 John :2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.

As pastor Joseph Prince of Singapore has said,

“The One who fed more than 5,000 people, gave fishermen a net-breaking, boat-sinking load of fish, and who placed the gold, diamonds and rubies in the earth, took your place of poverty at the cross, just so that you can take His place of abundance. He is the reason you can be blessed to be a blessing.”

And, speaking of The Divine Exchange, he writes,

“Jesus was made destitute of all material things at the cross. He had nothing! As He hung on the cross, He watched the Roman soldiers gamble for His robe. His last possession on earth was gambled away. He became poor, so that you could be blessed with the excellent and the plenty!”

In Matthew 10:8, Jesus instructs his disciples (and us, I believe):

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Jesus said, “It is finished.” What can we possibly add, except our obedience to “freely receive and freely give”?

So…just how do we freely receive [love, time, money, wisdom, energy, power, authority], in order to have divine resources to freely give?

A daily, prophetic, quiet time.

Let’s give God our attention in our daily devotional times alone with Him. A “quiet time” requires quiet, and time (!) During that set-aside time, let’s meditate on, and worship God for, those incredible Bible verses. Let’s also listen for, expect to receive, and then write down, His personalized promises and instructions to us, regarding his specific desires for our own short tenure on earth. Again, this will take quiet, and time.

PS Here is an excerpt from today’s devotional by Joseph Prince, entitled, “Be Big-Hearted Like God”:

There is one who scatters, yet increases more; and there is one who withholds more than is right, but it leads to poverty.Proverbs 11:24.

...I want you to know today that your loving heavenly Father is a big-hearted, generous God of abundance. When you have a revelation of how He is so full of love, power and provision, you won’t live life constantly worried about your needs, or envious of others when you see them blessed. When you know that all of heaven’s resources are yours to enjoy because of the cross of Jesus, you can have a generous heart, a big heart, like your Daddy God. And according to today’s verse, when you have a big heart, you become a candidate for even more that God has.

So meditate on God’s abundance toward you and open up your heart today. Be a giver. Be a blessing. Rejoice with others when they are blessed. See yourself blessed and provided for because of Jesus and before long, you will see it on the outside!

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

The shift of perspective in the New Testament is a heavenly one. We are to keep a heavenly perspective. Yes we are made rich in Christ when we get to heaven. Lovers of money preachers are self-esteem preachers. But Jesus gave us the example to follow when He emptied Himself and became nothing. Specialness is ego:

he emptied himself (became nothing)

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

by becoming obedient to death—

even death on a cross!

Phil. 2:7-8

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. ~~ Matt. 5:3

Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, ~~Genesis 18:27

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; ~~ Romans 3:12

For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. ~~ Galatians 6:3

But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive ~~ 2 Tim. 3:2

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.~~ Timothy 6:10

This is what happens to those in the lake of fire as they are humbled and their ego is destroyed. They are emptied of self and reduced to nothing (dust and ashes) as the Spirit fills them. The baptism in fire destroys the old self and they are resurrected to life. According to the award winning psychiatrist David D. Burns

After you achieve unconditional self-esteem, you can climb another step up the ladder if you want. On the next step, you can adopt the even more radical position that there is no such thing as self-esteem....On this level, you can discard the notion of self-esteem entirely and refuse to deal with it. This solution to the problem of is in the Buddhist tradition because self-esteem is rejected as a useless illusion. Giving up your self-esteem once you have discovered it may sound like a negative notion. It may feel like a loss and seem like something inside you dies. All of us naturally want to feel special and worthwhile. However, there is a rebirth, because the death of your pride and ego can lead to new life and to a more profound vision. When you discover that you are nothing, you have nothing to lose, and you inherit the world....Instead of worrying about whether you are worthwhile each day you can have goals that involve learning, personal growth, helping others, and so on.

From my book called "The Wisdom To Know the Difference" by the psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Mississippi. It's on the scientifically proven therapy called "Acceptance Commitment Therapy". It's under the section called "The Self-Esteem Myth"

The myth says that low self-esteem lies at the core of many individual and societal problems...During the last ten years, there has been a major effort by scientists to examine whether this story about the role of self-esteem is true. As it turns out, the answer is no. High self-esteem is related to aggressiveness, bullying, narcissism, egotism, prejudice, and high risk behaviors.

The book was published in 2012

I think the self has to die. That's what the bible seems to think. There must be a letting go, a surrendering, an emptying of the self. All efforts to define the self by acts of justification, the accumulation of evidence and data that the self is significant, have to be renounced. ~~ Richard Beck

This comes from page 61 of the book "The Essential Mystics, Poets, Saints and Sages by Richard Hooper":

Renouncing the world seems like it would be incredible hard, and renouncing the ego seems entirely impossible. Modern society is especially challenged: we have iPhones and iPods, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, and American Idol. We all deserve our fifteen minutes of fame. It is especially difficult to become nobody in a world that only respects those with big egos.

The mystics tell us, however, that we can never realize we are one with All until we have eradicated our personal sense of "I". God can't come to visit unless we're not home. As Ram Dass put it, "The mystical game is not about becoming somebody, it's about becoming nobody".

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, and self-control. This is the flower of humility. This is the heart open to true Beauty. Check this book out by John Piper. It opened my eyes to see how money, sex, and power are connected. It's an eye opener:

St. Michael wrote:... Yes we are made rich in Christ when we get to heaven. Lovers of money preachers are self-esteem preachers...

You seem to be indicating that my (current) favorite teacher, Joseph Prince, is a “lover of money” teacher. A “self-esteem” teacher. But you would be wrong about his message. (Although no, he is not yet a universalist. And yes, he still wrongly believes God was capable of violence against men, e.g. that He was the one who sent the Flood of Noah, not Satan. Note: to see that it was Satan, please read Richard Murray's book, God versus Evil, particularly, “Question 20: Did Jesus drown all the children in the world with a killer flood? Or….was it Satan?”)

Sure, we are not to store up riches—for ourselves. But do you not see the distinction between prosperity (having money) and materialism (loving money)?

How can you lift up others financially, if you can’t pay your own bills from month to month, and have something left over to share? God wants us prosperous! By the same token, how can you bless others if you are on your back, sick and tired? God wants us well!

Again, our salvation includes both health and prosperity, as I mention above regarding The Divine Exchange. Please again take a look at those Bible verses I shared earlier: they are for the here and now; they are not referring to after we die and go to heaven. E.g.,

3 John :2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.

(In fact, we know Jesus wants it to be here "on earth, as it is in heaven." Is there sickness in heaven? Is there poverty in heaven?)

As to self-esteem (or, as you argue, “specialness is ego"):

The Bible calls John “the disciple whom Jesus loved.” What was so special about John that made the Lord love him more? But wait, the phrase “the disciple whom Jesus loved” ...only appears in John’s own book . Jesus loved all His disciples the same; however, John personally received it! John experienced it! John really knew it!

We are to focus on Jesus and his unlimited supply, not on ourselves and the demands of life. That’s Jesus-esteem, not self-esteem.

Let’s reject a (supposedly pious) poverty mentality. Rather, let’s meditate on, receive for ourselves, and proclaim to others, the promises of God. For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 2 Cor. 1:20.

As to your quotes from Richard Hooper about—

“renouncing the world,” and 'never being able to realize we are one with All until we have eradicated our personal sense of “I” '

—well, let’s not all run out and join monasteries.

In John 17:15-18, we see we are indeed to be in the world, not of the world:

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

You seem to be indicating that my (current) favorite teacher, Joseph Prince, is a “lover of money” teacher.

You may be right. I'll look into Mr. Prince.

3 John :2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers

.

This is just a prayer. Moreover it's a specific prayer for a specific person at a specific time. But Paul tells us:

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.- Phil 4

Indeed Paul prayed to be healed but was not healed:

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” ~~ Mathew 24

For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. ~~ 1 Timothy 6:7-11

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.~~ 1 Timothy 6:17-20

the disciple whom Jesus loved”

The Bible also says:

God so loved the world

We don't have to join monasteries to die to self. Moreover:

To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. ~~ Col. 1:27

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. ~~ Galatians 2:20

We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be raised to life as He was. We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin ~~ Romans 6

put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness ~~ Eph. 4:24

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

First, we cannot be certain that Paul’s thorn in the flesh in 2 Cor. 12 was a physical infirmity.

Then, Paul calls his thorn in the flesh "the messenger of Satan" in verse 7, not “the messenger of God." Jesus came to destroy Satan's works, not to send them (1 John 3:8). Thorns in the flesh to afflict people are of Satan, not God. God is only about abundant life.

And God's response to Paul was not, "No, I wont help you." Rather, it was, "Paul, I have already given you the grace to deal with it in my perfect strength. You need only receive it by acknowledging your weakness in your own ability. As you receive my ability by forsaking your own, then my perfect power will rest on you."

God doesn't promise we won't have affliction. But He does promise we can always overcome it:

-No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Romans 8:37.

-You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 1 John 4:4.

-For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:4.

-Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7.

And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matt. 19:24-26.

The narrative of the rich young ruler presents no mystery. This man was a slave. Money was not his servant, but his master. But Jesus was not saying that only poor people and not wealthy people enter the kingdom of heaven. That would exclude Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, Zaccheus, Joseph of Arimathea, et cetera. Jesus was confronting a common idol: money; an idol often shared by both rich and poor.

Materialism encourages independence, as we see with the church of Laodicea: “I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing.” Revelation 3:17. We agree that, “If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 Jn. 2:15.

Prosperity can only be properly handled through the love of the Father. But then, that could also be said about all of life on earth.

It doesn't matter whether it was physical or a mental infirmity. Paul's thorn in the flesh shows that praying to prosper in all ways doesn't necessarily mean that we will prosper in all ways. We overcome the world by trusting God even in our infirmities like Paul did. When we are weak we are strong. Sure God can humble a person as long as wealth is no longer one of His gods:

Matthew 6:24

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.

1 Timothy 3:3

not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money..Luke 16:13

"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth."

Matthew 4:9-10

and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

James 4:4

You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Matthew 13:22

"And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Mark 4:19

but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Luke 8:14

"The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Matthew 19:21-22

Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

Mark 10:21-22

Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

Luke 18:22-23

When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

1 Timothy 6:17

Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

Job 31:24-28

"If I have put my confidence in gold, And called fine gold my trust, If I have gloated because my wealth was great, And because my hand had secured so much; If I have looked at the sun when it shone Or the moon going in splendor.

Psalm 52:6-7

The righteous will see and fear, And will laugh at him, saying, "Behold, the man who would not make God his refuge, But trusted in the abundance of his riches And was strong in his evil desire."

Proverbs 11:28

He who trusts in his riches will fall, But the righteous will flourish like the green leaf.

Jeremiah 49:4

"How boastful you are about the valleys! Your valley is flowing away, O backsliding daughter Who trusts in her treasures, saying, 'Who will come against me?'

Do not trust in oppression And do not vainly hope in robbery; If riches increase, do not set your heart upon them.

Proverbs 18:23

The poor man utters supplications, But the rich man answers roughly.

Proverbs 28:11

The rich man is wise in his own eyes, But the poor who has understanding sees through him.

Job 20:17-20

"He does not look at the streams, The rivers flowing with honey and curds. "He returns what he has attained And cannot swallow it; As to the riches of his trading, He cannot even enjoy them. "For he has oppressed and forsaken the poor; He has seized a house which he has not built.

It's not even ungodly to be poor. For Paul says:

Phil 4

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Moreover, we are encouraged to use medicine for illnesses from the bible:

1 Tim. 5:23

No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

The promises of God are used to secure the future and give one hope as the desires that lead to sin are pushed out and the heart is opened up to love. It's faith working itself out through love. Faith - Hope - Love - these three remain.

St. Michael, I have never suggested that it is wrong to take medicine, or that it is ungodly to be poor. Nonetheless, I am now convinced God does not want us sick or poor. He wants us healthy and prosperous, and thereby in a better position to help others.

God has made provision at the cross for our health and prosperity, through what I termed “The Divine Exchange,” in my earlier discussion of Isaiah 53.

1 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” (“Healed” iaomai. E.g., Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed [iaomai] at that moment. Mt. 8:13.)

2 Cor. 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. (“Rich” plousios. E.g., Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich [plousios] to enter the kingdom of heaven. Mt. 19:23.)

Jesus became poor so that we, who were spiritually poor, could be rich in the coming age:

Ephesians 2:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast

Matt. 5:3

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 12:32-34

"Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.

Matt. 6:19–20

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Indeed Paul was:

2 Cor. 6:10

sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing everything.

If God does bring wealth to a Christian while on earth He does it not to raise his standard of living, but raise his standard of giving. Moreover to say that God doesn't want us poor contradicts Paul:

Phil 4

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

The promises of healing for everybody in the atonement are completely fulfilled in the resurrection when we have new immortal bodies in the new heaven and earth.

Rev. 21:14

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

Indeed, we are to keep an eternal perspective and the rewards of heaven:

Luke 14:12-14

Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

John 18:36 36

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Our life on earth is but a tiny drop of water compared to eternity. Because of this, we live for God’s eternal purposes, not our shortsighted temporal purposes.

James 4:13–16

Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”

St. Michael wrote:...Moreover to say that God doesn't want us poor contradicts Paul:

Phil 4

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

St. Michael, our Bible verse ping pong is based on our conflicting views about the true nature of God. The Bible is only part of a progressive revelation of the goodness of God, coming through imperfect human mediators. The God-breathed Scriptures must be interpreted by the Spirit, not the letter; because the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (Please reconsider my essay, “Is God Violent, Or Nonviolent?” regarding the true nature of God. The Old Testament destructions of Satan have been often misattributed as "the wrath of God." The Old Testament saints had a largely undifferentiated view of God and Satan. But Jesus came to distinguish the true nature of his Father, as exclusively good and loving.)

Regarding God’s sovereignty: God is not in control of everything . He has chosen to delegate authority to man, and put some things under his control. It was Adam’s responsibility to care for the Garden. And God submits Himself to his promises (Ps. 138:2). Jesus said that, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore….” So we Christians have delegated authority, and delegated responsibilities. As my friend Richard Murray has said, “Satan's kingdom runs today entirely on the fumes of the Church's corporate neglect in endorsing and enforcing the victory of the cross.” Let’s not passively let ourselves, or others, be victimized and defrauded, because we wrongly think that "everything that happens is God's will."

After Adam and Eve sinned, God still came for his walk in the Garden. Had God changed? No! Had they changed? Yes! Now they saw God through a filter of lies and fear, and they hid from Him.

After sin came into the world, Adam had to work by the sweat of his brow in order to get by. But I no longer believe it was God who cursed the ground after Adam and Eve sinned, even if the editor of Genesis, Moses, may have. Sin opened the door to poverty--but Jesus has conquered sin and poverty.

Please don’t misunderstand me, Saint Michael: the ground was cursed, by the fallen archangel Lucifer. The devil is indeed very powerful, and is even described as the god of this world. He always searches for ways in, provided through the sins of men.

The ground was cursed in the Garden; yet, in another garden, Jesus redeemed the cursed ground with His blood:

And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:44.

Yes, the Flood of Noah came. Yes, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. I just no longer believe these things were done by God. Yes, God tries to warn and provide rescue and escape, but not kill, steal, and destroy. God is an unchanging, loving Daddy. He is not bipolar.

They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said.

They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again.

After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him. Matthew 27:28-31.

Speaking of The Divine Exchange, and having enough material provision, we know that God told mankind that the ground would only “produce thorns and thistles” for them. Genesis 3:18. But Jesus became a curse for us, to redeem us from curses. Jesus exchanged crowns with us: he gave us his crown of glory, and took our crown of thorns.

Now we can work joyfully and with pleasure, not under fear and threat. And, like Paul, under grace we can work harder than others (1 Cor. 15:10). However, God will continue to take care of us, and “put food on the table,” even if we come on hard times, and can’t work in exchange for money. God’s provision of food, money, health, joy, safety, and wisdom, are all free, and to be freely received. (Jesus was stripped of his clothing so that we could be clothed in his righteousness. His body was broken so that our bodies could be made whole and healthy. It is an ongoing challenge to discover new aspects to The Divine Exchange.)

The weapon the devil has is deception. If he can convince you that you are still under a curse, that lie will keep you bound.

Friend, if you really want to help the poor, think bigger. God’s resources are unlimited, and freely available. Everything He has is ours for the asking, because Jesus paid for it all, before we were born.

Shalom.

Last edited by Hermano on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

This is the very foundation of all the promises in the Bible. If God is not good and in control there's no reason to trust Him. Indeed, God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God and we love Him because He first loved us in His suffering death and resurrection. My past is wiped out and my future is secure. I'm therefore free to live in the present moment. God's promises can be fulfilled 14 seconds from now all the way into eternity. Indeed they will all be fulfilled in the new heavens and earth:

Rev. 22:

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

We haven't reached the consummation of this because there is still suffering and death in the world. When the purifying judgment takes place there will be a reconciled heaven and earth that arises from the purifying fires:

Rev. 21:14

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

In the mean time we are called to suffer with Christ:

Romans 8:17

And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ--if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

St. Michael wrote:...In the mean time we are called to suffer with Christ:

Romans 8:17

And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ--if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

True, we must suffer with Christ, if we would partake of His glory; but what of it? Look, we Christians are out of step with the world, the flesh, and the devil, and so we will suffer here sometimes because of that. However, when our sufferings are set over against the coming glory, they are insignificant! Hardly worth mentioning!

Suffering is not where we should camp out. We are not to seek or embrace suffering; but when suffering comes, we must EXCHANGE IT for joy:

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. James 1:2.

Remember The Divine Exchange of Isaiah 53?

Hermano wrote:“The Divine Exchange.”

Isaiah 53 indicates that Messiah would TAKE our sin and suffering, and GIVE us his righteousness and shalom (shalom being variously translated as “health,” “prosperity,” “safety,” “contentment,” “friendship,” and “peace”). He has done that.

The victory has been won, by Jesus. It must be enforced, by the Church. We are to take it to the devil. We are not to be fatalistic about the devil and his attacks:

-But in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us. Romans 8:37.

-Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Matthew 10:8.

Step by step, with our privileged participation, the “leaven” of life is displacing death, throughout the “flour” of Creation:

He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.” Matthew 13:33.

As to the misunderstood sovereignty of God; again, God is not in control of everything—by His own free choice! God has chosen to delegate limited sovereignty to man, to give him a certain amount of control.

The all-powerful Creator entrusted the title deed of earth to man, who lost it to Satan. And Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, successfully came to get it back, as a man. And, in a time of his own choosing, the Lamb will begin to break the seals of that property deed scroll, to officially evict Satan (Rev. 6).

To say that “God is in control of everything,” is to say that whatever happens, happens because God wanted it that way. That everything that happens—both good and evil—IS God’s will, by virtue of having been permitted by Him to happen!

Where that thinking can lead may be seen in the teaching of Calvinist John Piper in this quote:

It's right for God to slaughter women and children anytime he pleases. God gives life and he takes life. Everybody who dies, dies because God wills that they die.

God is taking life every day. He will take 50,000 lives today. Life is in God's hand. God decides when your last heartbeat will be, and whether it ends through cancer or a bullet wound. God governs.

So God is God! He rules and governs everything. And everything he does is just and right and good. God owes us nothing.

If I were to drop dead right now, or a suicide bomber downstairs were to blow this building up and I were blown into smithereens, God would have done me no wrong. He does no wrong to anybody when he takes their life, whether at 2 weeks or at age 92.

…The part that makes it harder is that he [God] commands people to do it. He commanded Joshua to slaughter people, okay?

…He can cause a flood and kill everybody on the planet except 8 people and not do a single one of them any wrong. But he didn't ask anybody else to do that. It gets difficult when he uses others.

Yet Hebrews 2:14 shows us it is actually Satan who has the power of death, not God:

“Since the children have flesh and blood, he [Jesus] too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil.”

And 1 Corinthians 15:26 shows that God considers death an enemy: “The last enemy to be destroyed is death.”

However, if we wrongly think these bad things are permitted by God’s sovereignty, or ordered by God, because they are God’s will, we will not oppose them. By that wrong thinking of God’s true nature, we must embrace evil (by redefining it as "good"); to oppose evil would be to oppose God!

Regarding Piper’s thinking, I would have to say with John Wesley, “Your God is my devil.”

We do oppose evil because we don't live by God's sovereign will. We live by His revealed will.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. Deut.29

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways ~~ Romans:11-33

I simply try to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and trust God and do mercy and justice:

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? ~~ Micah 6:8

The only sense in which God is said to kill anything is by His permission not positive agency:

1 Samuel 2:6-10

“The Lord kills and makes alive;He brings down to the grave and brings up.

The Lord makes poor and makes rich;He brings low and lifts up.

He raises the poor from the dustAnd lifts the beggar from the ash heap,To set them among princesAnd make them inherit the throne of glory.

When God allowed Satan to torment job and kill his family Job says:

The lord has given and the lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the lord. To which the writer explains:

In all this job did not sin with his lips ~~ Job 1:22

God permits evil for justifiable reasons known only to Him. Ultimately God is responsible in that he permitted evil to destroy. But Satan did the destroying. God doesn't directly cause evil but permits it for morally justifiable reasons. One act two intentions. God's holy intentions are good man's intentions are evil. Nonetheless, He is in control:

And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. Deut. - 30:6

I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

A man's steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way? - Proverbs 20:24

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will. - Proverbs 21:1

declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it. - Isaiah 46:10-11

I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart. - Jeremiah 24:7

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?” - Daniel 4:35

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9-16

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” - Romans 9:19

for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. - Revelation 17:17

The victory has been won at the cross but it must work itself out in time. It will be complete at the new heaves and new earth when there is no more curse and all things are reconciled. God will do this because He's in control:

Col.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

I believe the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (e.g., the gift of discerning of spirits) are still available, still vital to the Church, and so are still to be ‘earnestly desired’ today.

But there is a difference between the Gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12) and the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5). They are both to edify; they are both perfectible, and so need development. But fruit relates to Christ-like character, whereas gifts relate to Christian service. Fruit is eternal, gifts are temporary.

The fruit of the Spirit, especially love, should be the context for the operation of the gifts of the Spirit, but that is not always the case. Spiritual gifts are under the control of the user, who may be immature or carnal; and so they can be abused or simply neglected.

Furthermore, the counterfeit betokens a genuine. And so there are indeed prosperity charlatans on TV working to separate fools from their money, as they,

-pray in tongues and declare false prophecies,-tell people that, “operators are standing by right now to take your faith pledge,” -and then fly away in private jets.

What’s new about that? We are to recognize false prophets by their fruits, not their gifts. So let’s not throw out the baby (e.g., genuine charismatic gifts, the Acts 20:24 gospel of GRACE, divine health and divine prosperity à la Prov. 10:22--AMP “The blessing of the Lord brings [true] riches, And He adds no sorrow to it [for it comes as a blessing from God]”), with the bathwater (false prophets).

We are to earnestly desire the Gifts (1 Cor. 12:31, 14:1), and not be afraid to do so:

11 If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” Luke 11.