A Declaration of Independence From Israel

Posted on Jul 2, 2007

“The key products and services,” as Naomi Klein wrote in The Nation, “are hi-tech fences, unmanned drones, biometric IDs, video and audio surveillance gear, air passenger profiling and prisoner interrogation systems—precisely the tools and technologies Israel has used to lock in the occupied territories. And that is why the chaos in Gaza and the rest of the region doesn’t threaten the bottom line in Tel Aviv, and may actually boost it. Israel has learned to turn endless war into a brand asset, pitching its uprooting, occupation and containment of the Palestinian people as a half-century head start in the ‘global war on terror.’ ”

The United States, at least officially, does not support the occupation and calls for a viable Palestinian state. It is a global player, with interests that stretch well beyond the boundaries of the Middle East, and the equation that Israel’s enemies are our enemies is not that simple.

“Terrorism is not a single adversary,” John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt wrote in The London Review of Books, “but a tactic employed by a wide array of political groups. The terrorist organizations that threaten Israel do not threaten the United States, except when it intervenes against them (as in Lebanon in 1982). Moreover, Palestinian terrorism is not random violence directed against Israel or ‘the West’; it is largely a response to Israel’s prolonged campaign to colonize the West Bank and Gaza Strip. More important, saying that Israel and the US are united by a shared terrorist threat has the causal relationship backwards: the US has a terrorism problem in good part because it is so closely allied with Israel, not the other way around.”

Middle Eastern policy is shaped in the United States by those with very close ties to the Israel lobby. Those who attempt to counter the virulent Israeli position, such as former Secretary of State Colin Powell, are ruthlessly slapped down. This alliance was true also during the Clinton administration, with its array of Israel-first Middle East experts, including special Middle East coordinator Dennis Ross and Martin Indyk, the former deputy director of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, AIPAC, one of the most powerful Israel lobbying groups in Washington. But at least people like Indyk and Ross are sane, willing to consider a Palestinian state, however unviable, as long as it is palatable to Israel. The Bush administration turned to the far-right wing of the Israel lobby, those who have not a shred of compassion for the Palestinians or a word of criticism for Israel. These new Middle East experts include Elliott Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, the disgraced I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz and David Wurmser.

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Washington was once willing to stay Israel’s hand. It intervened to thwart some of its most extreme violations of human rights. This administration, however, has signed on for every disastrous Israeli blunder, from building the security barrier in the West Bank, to sealing off Gaza and triggering a humanitarian crisis, to the ruinous invasion and saturation bombing of Lebanon.

The few tepid attempts by the Bush White House to criticize Israeli actions have all ended in hasty and humiliating retreats in the face of Israeli pressure. When the Israel Defense Forces in April 2002 reoccupied the West Bank, President Bush called on then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to “halt the incursions and begin withdrawal.” It never happened. After a week of heavy pressure from the Israel lobby and Israel’s allies in Congress, meaning just about everyone in Congress, the president gave up, calling Sharon “a man of peace.” It was a humiliating moment for the United States, a clear sign of who pulled the strings.

There were several reasons for the war in Iraq. The desire for American control of oil, the belief that Washington could build puppet states in the region, and a real, if misplaced, fear of Saddam Hussein played a part in the current disaster. But it was also strongly shaped by the notion that what is good for Israel is good for the United States. Israel wanted Iraq neutralized. Israeli intelligence, in the lead-up to the war, gave faulty information to the U.S. about Iraq’s alleged arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. And when Baghdad was taken in April 2003, the Israeli government immediately began to push for an attack on Syria. The lust for this attack has waned, in no small part because the Americans don’t have enough troops to hang on in Iraq, much less launch a new occupation.

Israel is currently lobbying the United States to launch aerial strikes on Iran, despite the debacle in Lebanon. Israel’s iron determination to forcibly prevent a nuclear Iran makes it probable that before the end of the Bush administration an attack on Iran will take place. The efforts to halt nuclear development through diplomatic means have failed. It does not matter that Iran poses no threat to the United States. It does not matter that it does not even pose a threat to Israel, which has several hundred nuclear weapons in its arsenal. It matters only that Israel demands total military domination of the Middle East.

The alliance between Israel and the United States has culminated after 50 years in direct U.S. military involvement in the Middle East. This involvement, which is not furthering American interests, is unleashing a geopolitical nightmare. American soldiers and Marines are dying in droves in a useless war. The impotence of the United States in the face of Israeli pressure is complete. The White House and the Congress have become, for perhaps the first time, a direct extension of Israeli interests. There is no longer any debate within the United States. This is evidenced by the obsequious nods to Israel by all the current presidential candidates with the exception of Dennis Kucinich. The political cost for those who challenge Israel is too high.

This means there will be no peaceful resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It means the incidents of Islamic terrorism against the U.S. and Israel will grow. It means that American power and prestige are on a steep, irreversible decline. And I fear it also means the ultimate end of the Jewish experiment in the Middle East.

The weakening of the United States, economically and militarily, is giving rise to new centers of power. The U.S. economy, mismanaged and drained by the Iraq war, is increasingly dependent on Chinese trade imports and on Chinese holdings of U.S. Treasury securities. China holds dollar reserves worth $825 billion. If Beijing decides to abandon the U.S. bond market, even in part, it would cause a free fall by the dollar. It would lead to the collapse of the $7-trillion U.S. real estate market. There would be a wave of U.S. bank failures and huge unemployment. The growing dependence on China has been accompanied by aggressive work by the Chinese to build alliances with many of the world’s major exporters of oil, such as Iran, Nigeria, Sudan and Venezuela. The Chinese are preparing for the looming worldwide clash over dwindling resources.

The future is ominous. Not only do Israel’s foreign policy objectives not coincide with American interests, they actively hurt them. The growing belligerence in the Middle East, the calls for an attack against Iran, the collapse of the imperial project in Iraq have all given an opening, where there was none before, to America’s rivals. It is not in Israel’s interests to ignite a regional conflict. It is not in ours. But those who have their hands on the wheel seem determined, in the name of freedom and democracy, to keep the American ship of state headed at breakneck speed into the cliffs before us.

Well Gods End & 1stSg,
you don’t even seem to get your complot theories aligned: one says Israel perpetrated the 9/11 crimes, the other asks why AlQaeda sent the pilots. So it’s agreed that the two of you have some serious anger management issues, the origins of which are probably a bit too dark for this website. That, combined with a blatant disdain for facts and a supremist outlook on life, unfortunately puts you in the league of foaming loonies. Sorry guys, but I shan’t be feeding these insatiable sorry urges of yours.

I’m pretty sure that when you sober up, you can uncomfortably laugh at your delusions. I hope you become human again soon, because you seem a nice enough pair. Not bigots at all !

Strangely enough, Bush may be right! Israeli Zionists attacked us on 9/11 and they are also leading the insurgent charge in Iraq, aiming to dismember the country in the Balkanization effort. Next, of course, they will be behind 911-II and a similar Balkanization attempt in Iran. Does the US Military really need that old Carrier Enterprise any more - or is it disposable and full of asbestos, like the WTC towers?!

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You buy into this pure bullshit that was put out by Arabs to TRY to cover for 19 Arabs flying planes into the WTC and the Pentagon, but “oh No! I’m not anti-semitic! I just believe Jews (whoops! I meant to say ‘Zionists’—chuckle—) are from Satan!”

GodSend: You ARE anti-semitic. You ARE a bigot, and you ARE a neo-nazi because you happily and willingly buy into this bullshit that could not POSSIBLY be true.

But then again, facts don’t matter to you anyway—you have “faith” and a direct line from God. I’ve met Christians and “Christians”. Trust me, you are the latter.

President Bush, defending his troop surge in Iraq, insisted Thursday that the insurgents attacking US troops in Iraq “are the same ones who attacked us on Sept. 11.”

Strangely enough, Bush may be right! Israeli Zionists attacked us on 9/11 and they are also leading the insurgent charge in Iraq, aiming to dismember the country in the ‘Balkanization’ effort. Next, of course, they will be behind 911-II and a similar ‘Balkanization’ attempt in Iran. Does the US Military really need that old Carrier ‘Enterprise’ any more - or is it ‘disposable’ and full of asbestos, like the WTC towers?!

No, I didn’t watch the program. I haven’t been able to watch Bush live on TV for a very long time - just seeing him makes my hair stand on end and my skin crawl! A friend of mine has the same reaction. He exudes Evil, just standing still. His body language is scary. Then, when he opens his mouth, it’s like the very gates of hell are opening - a stammering of lies and twisted English right out of ‘Rosemarie’s Baby’! I’ve never seen evil and idiocy combined in such a deceptive and deadly package! Have you ever read Paul Levy’s articles about him? They are very insightful (‘Awaken in the Dream’ is his website).

“Did you watch the US Presidents live news conference today? Did you see him use threatening words towards Iran and in the same sentence mention Iran threatens Israel, calling it to be wiped off the map?”

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the 1Sgt;

I watched GW Bush’s speech this AM. While I was watching…, I started to wonder… Who wrote that speech & other speeches for GW Bush?

Do we have any name(s) as to who he/she is the author(s)?

Who was this person(s) who was responsible for such a speech and a zionist agenda?

It surely would be nice to know the name(s)...does anyone on this thread know?

Just makes me wonder what and whose agenda and speeches does our American president follow?

He sure listens to Joe Lieberman’s zionist/Israeli and other zionists agendas…and that is wreak havoc on the Arab/Islamic countries…and more support $$$ for Israel.

How many thousands of innocent lives has George Bush’s, Cheney and the zionist neo-cons war killed?

How much “TERROR” has our military conducted in Iraq for the lies of WMD’s?

Well, from the comments of Gods end and Sgt1 it is pretty clear, what forces Hughes manages (or maybe intends) to summon. Fortunately its, even on this forum less than a handful of people, shouting over the top of their voice. I love open and genuine discussions, but the immediate calling for innocent blood to be spilled, reeks. I just wish that people with sound minds and a balanced view, call out against this, as they would when the subject of their emotional wrath would be an(y) other minority
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Your comments reflect exactly what I meant by conditioned thinking.

Whose blood? The Israeli’s?

Is it really innocent?

Who is calling for innocent blood to be spilled? What are the words or actions of anyone here or in the article which lead you to infer the above statement?

Is it this one?—-“Israel, without the United States, would probably not exist.”

Is this an inflammatory, anti-semitic statement?

Do you think removal of support today means Israel becomes extinct? Is his suggestion of removal of support anti-semetic? Do Americans owe Israel a living in perpetuity?

Did you watch the US President’s live news conference today? Did you see him use threatening words towards Iran and in the same sentence mention Iran “threatens Israel, calling it to be wiped off the map”?

How his statements regarding al Queda in Iraq and the war there to prevent the war here?

Why did Al queda attack the United States?

What have Americans and or their government done to the Arab world to inflame these extremists?

Cyrena, where does zionism in your world view stand on the ladder of legitimacy, and where are countries based on colonialism. Where are fiefdoms and regimes that go about execution style rampages? Where does it honestly rank compared to 90% of the world’s countries, where the police isn’t your best friend, and a nightly knock by the army/gang/police on the door means you have to hide your virgin daughters?

If you are interested to find out about ‘legitimate zionism’, you might want to read a book with an open mind, that actually does not quote from the bible, the quran, nor is it based on atrocities. It’s about realities: How to Cure a Fanatic by Amos Oz

It could be a real cure for some of the fun loving characters that roam around this blog

Neither I nor the 1Sgt are calling for the spilling of innocent blood! - BUT there are some nasty Zionists in Israel (actually, Palestine!) who have been doing just that (and are doing it as I write) for a VERY long time. The IDF has been killing children, women, old men and the occasional American peace protester since the abomination Israel was first created - against Yahweh’s will, I might add! (see Neturei Karta for details)

The Heavenly Power that will be unleashed (God willing) will put an end to those atrocities - and all other atrocities that are being committed or planned by those Zionist Devils!

Well, from the comments of Gods end and Sgt1 it is pretty clear, what forces Hughes manages (or maybe intends) to summon. Fortunately it’s, even on this forum less than a handful of people, shouting over the top of their voice. I love open and genuine discussions, but the immediate calling for innocent blood to be spilled, reeks. I just wish that people with sound minds and a balanced view, call out against this, as they would when the subject of their emotional wrath would be an(y) other minority…

It is just amazing to me to see the level of conditioning people have in their thinking. The people here who NAZIFY (new word?) people when discussion about Israel and the role it plays in the lives of American people are truly fooling themselves.

The problem with this thinking is it doesn’t reflect a changed world. MANY, MANY people are starting to ask questions. These questions will eventually lead to the truth. We cannot avoid this.

Talk about Nazi Germany and the Holocaust…look at what happened to the German people when they found out they were on the losing side. They had occupiers on their land. They are occupied today.

America (the people) needs to wake up to what America (the government) is doing to people around the world, in their name.

Israel is not a state in our union, we don’t owe them anything, we don’t need to have our children fight a war for them, because of the enemies they have created and we certainly do not need to FOREVER support them financially, to the tune of 100+ BILLION dollars over the last 60 years.

Here is a VERY IMPORTANT message about America, Israel, Zionism and the future of our country and of our children. After the sorrow has subsided, it needs to be replaced by OUTRAGE and ACTION! Was there ever a more appropriate time than NOW, when “the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots”? (Thomas Jefferson). It may not have to be real blood just yet - figurative blood may be sufficient.

Truly, Windbag, I have no intention of twisting your arm (or worse) about ANYTHING - or anyone elses. Im not the violent type. Furthermore, you are welcome to remain an agnostic Windbag for the rest of your life.

Its possible (by Gods Grace) that He will decide to make you aware of His existence - you should be so lucky! That is likely to be an experience you will never forget - for better or for worse. God can work miracles even with lobotomized agnostics! smile

Did it ever occur to you that my comments to you are not really addressed to you? wink

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I am deeply touched by your concern for my soul and the souls of others like me. Is that why you constantly call me insulting names and rage at me with threats of God’s vengeance? Because you truly CARE that I need to be saved?

Thankyou, Thankyou! I’m going to get tonsured and join the priesthood this very afternoon!

Only one thing in the history of the Universe could possibly be termed “a miracle” and that was The Big Bang itself—and only because we have no way (yet)of seeking and examining what came before it and caused it. Everything from the first “10 to the -100th” of a second after the BB until now is governed by the laws of physics, only some of which are understood.

If you want to say that it was God who made the Big Bang happen, well, I certainly cannot and will not dispute that. And I have no problem with that—that’s the Deist position.

However, to say that He/She has had to constantly interfere and “adjust” things after the Big Ban denies the very concept of His/Her “Omniscience” and “Omnipotence”. In other words, interventions (“miracles”) imply that God could not see the implications of The Big Bang, and did a lousy job of crafting it. Both of these inferences about “miracles” deny Omniscience and Omnipotence. And, according to most religions, are sacreligious to infer God as less then All-Knowing and All-Powerful.

In other words, Omniscience means He/She knows I’m typing these words even before I do.

I’m not talking only to you “GodSend”, but to people who may think your arguments make some sense.

Funny that I can’t find any trace of a discussion on the opening lines of Hughes’ piece.
1) WHAT would have happened, if Israel would have been overrun by the peace loving armies of Egypt and Syria?
2) how does that relate to how Israel treated the civilian population in areas it conquered in 1967?

By the way, before everyone jumps on to their hobby horse, we’re talking Israel 1973, so all your preconceptions about the horrible situation in the West Bank, anno 2007, don’t fly.

Truly, Windbag, I have no intention of twisting your arm (or worse) about ANYTHING - or anyone else’s. I’m not the violent type. Furthermore, you are welcome to remain an agnostic Windbag for the rest of your life.

It’s possible (by God’s Grace) that He will decide to make you aware of His existence - you should be so lucky! That is likely to be an experience you will never forget - for better or for worse. God can work miracles even with lobotomized agnostics!

Did it ever occur to you that my comments to you are not really addressed to you?

When one moves to the radical left, apparently they are not moving in a strait line but a circle. The author of this antisemitic diatribe has come full circle. Chris Hedges is not a progressive or even a left-wing ideologue he is a right-wing fascist. After WWI Hitler was also blaming the Jews for the war. If there are any on this blog who still believe that the Holocaust even took place, they should recount what the consequences of blaming the Jews were. Really! If those of you who are not openly white supremacists really believe this kind of antisemitism is progressive you are only kidding yourselves.

Do the American people know then that they are slaves or dont they care. Perhaps they are so totally owned, that they cant (or arent allowed to) care.

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All of that and add in lack of a proper education for the masses and additionally a bit of naivety. You can also pepper in the fact we don’t have the history that Europe does in that we have never been subjugated before. People here don’t know what it is like to have an occupying army on their soil, abusing the citizenry, so consequently they are not so jealous of their democracy. Most Americans who are world traveled, well educated know…the rest are waking up.

That’s what the people on the pro-zionist camp are trying to prevent through the information warfare currently ongoing.

Administrator follies, part II. If you attempt to find this article by plugging “Hedges” into the site’s search engine, you get almost forty hits (articles with links), dating from May ‘06 thru Muly ‘07, but, wonders never cease, not this one. A mere coincidence, perhaps?

Windbag, I said earlier that the lobotomy of your mind and heart was successful - you keep proving it with every foul breath and post that arrives here. You understand NOTHING! One day you will be on your knees before your Creator (thatll be the end of your agnosticism) - and the witness of your words and actions on Earth will condemn you and reason will not save you! Youll have eternity to find a reason for having been so dense!

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Yeah, and Santy Claws is gonna leave me a lump of coal.

The man who says “Believe as I do or God will damn you,” will soon be saying, “Believe as I do or I will kill you.”— Voltaire

That, ‘GodSend’, is my opinion of you. That in your frustration at not being able to convince people like me to follow your superstition, you will then advocate using violence against me to FORCE me to conform and terrorize others into conformity.

You are only a step or two away from becoming a “Christian” version of an Islamic Jihadist—like Eric Rudolph, who justifies his murder and terrorism as “God’s Will”.

Save your boogie-man fairy-tale threats for those who are frightened by such medieval nonsense. It’s just a noisy passing of gas to me.

﻿ In 1700s, the French philosopher Condorcet asserted that the gullibility and stupidity of the vast majority of the population would enable a cunning minority to indoctrinate them at will and so create an elite oligarchy behind a democratic front. In 1972 Senator William Fulbright declared that the United States was subservient to Israel and bore a very great share of the responsibility for the continuation of Middle East violence. Fulbright added that The Israelis control politics in Congress and in the Senate - i.e., in America. For daring to speak out and tell the truth to the American public, Jewish Americans voted together to kick Fulbright out of the Senate. In confirming that AIPAC was responsible for Fulbrights defeat at the polls, a former head of AIPAC boasted: The Jews in America gathered to oust Senator Charles Percy and the (other) American politicians got the message. AIPAC also ousted Congressman Paul Findley who had also dared to speak out about the power of the Israeli Lobby and the omnipotent control they had over America and the lives of its citizens.
Somebody please correct me if Im wrong but didnt Ariel Sharon the former Prime Minister of Israel comment to someone in Israel before his stroke (that): We own America and America knows it? Being a foreigner I didnt know exactly what the English word own meant so I looked the word up in the dictionary. According to the Oxford Universal Dictionary Own is defined as: to make ones own, to seize, win, gain; to adopt as ones own, to possess; to have as ones function or business.
So does this mean that Ariel Sharon said: America is ours and America knows it?
Pope John II articulated in 1999 that the human race is facing forms of slavery which are new and more subtle than those of the past.
Do the American people know then that they are slaves or dont they care. Perhaps they are so totally owned, that they cant (or arent allowed to) care.

Windbag, I said earlier that the lobotomy of your mind and heart was successful - you keep proving it with every foul breath and post that arrives here. You understand NOTHING! One day you will be on your knees before your Creator (that’ll be the end of your agnosticism) - and the witness of your words and actions on Earth will condemn you and reason will not save you! You’ll have eternity to find a reason for having been so dense!

Do you really think for example we Americans have not noticed the former Vice-Presidential candidate Joe Lieberman, who is Jewish, and is a ZIONIST is advocating US attacks on Iran, US continuing the Iraq war although he WAS a democrat and then switched parties to Independent so he could get back in when he was beat in the primaries last election?

You are so two dimensional that you may not believe that I detest Lieberman just as much as you do, and for nearly the same reasons: Advocating unwarranted attacks on Iran, supporting Mad King George without question, dishonoring the party he was a member of for so long by going independent.

But “I know nuz-sing!” (Apologies to the late John Banner, a great funny-man)

Well, Windbag, you did it again! - filled this space with enough hot air to float us all to the moon wink

Im going to let a dead man answer you (and all other agnostics and atheists), who is on the other side. His name is Theodor Austin-Sparks:

“We were saying that these are not just abstract ideas, this is positive, practical, experimental knowledge… In the very simplest way, with the greatest of ease, light just begins to filter through, and you do not know exactly when it happened, but you are able to say,

I see now!

That is the nature of spiritual knowledge. It is always like that, it will ever be like that. It is life, it is spirituality. It is that you are in living union with God, and not as merely a fact but a process, you are continually living in union with God.”

I cant improve on that except to say: I, too, once was blind - but now I SEE! (by Gods Amazing Grace)

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Let me translate that gibberish/hash for you: “Stop thinking if you what to know God. Don’t be what ‘He’ made you, a rational, reasoning being. Don’t use ‘His’ greatest gift to you—your brain. And when you achieve that absolute perfection of non-thinking, you’ll be dead and that’s the best thing you can be—dead. Cross my heart and hope to die!”

And you buy into that…stuff. I don’t. I recognize it for what it is: vile and evil masquerading as goodness.

As a mean-spirited, hate-filled insult-spitting, threat-hurling miserable excuse for a human being, you have a lot of damn gall saying you were blind and now you see.

I suggest you tend to your own business before you tend to mine. I can’t imagine any god seeing grace in you.

#85784 by Inherit The Wind on 7/10 at 7:12 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Sgt Schultz on 7/10 at 4:38 pm
(17 comments total)
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Translation of Sgt. Schultz:

Ven VE are in powah, all you Chews are goink to be in BIC t-r-rubble! Ve are goink to fix you GUT!

SCHULTZ! VAT ARE YOU DOINK?!?!?

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Awe that’s too bad ITW, you ran out of gas so you resort to the “Name-Calling” technique in the Hasbara Manual.

You cannot respond to the truth more Americans are having increasing difficulty with their government’s current foreign policy of supporting a state which does not espouse American ideals. You see, we have turned the stone over and what we see is not pretty.

Do you really think for example we Americans have not noticed the former Vice-Presidential candidate Joe Lieberman, who is Jewish, and is a ZIONIST is advocating US attacks on Iran, US continuing the Iraq war although he WAS a democrat and then switched parties to Independent so he could get back in when he was beat in the primaries last election?

War for Israel is not good for America ITW. We Americans are starting to figure out the big con game.

Well, Windbag, you did it again! - filled this space with enough hot air to float us all to the moon

I’m going to let a dead man answer you (and all other agnostics and atheists), who is ‘on the other side’. His name is Theodor Austin-Sparks:

We were saying that these are not just abstract ideas, this is positive, practical, experimental knowledge, the result of the free action of Divine life in us, the mystery and wonder, the marvel of Divine life within which knows no limitations. Thus, fullness is governed by two things. Firstly by life and spirituality. Those two are one, one is but the definition of the other. Life and spirituality; it is spiritual life, it is a spiritual state which that life produces. It is related entirely to all spiritual things, related to association with God, union with God, knowledge of God. That life makes the link and defines the nature of spirituality. Fullness is based upon that. If any of us live on the basis of nature, in the measure in which we do that, we are unspiritual and miss God. If, for instance, you are just trying to get round and get over the immensities of God’s thoughts by reason, projecting your head into that realm and trying to comprehend with natural reason, you will not only do yourself harm and bring yourself to despair, but you will miss the way entirely. This requires the renewed, re-born spirit indwelt and taught by the Holy Spirit. You people who call yourselves thinking people, your reaction is, Where does human reason come in? Is it not a Divine gift? Yes; but it is an after instrument. You do not begin with it. You have to have it in order to communicate with other people who are on the same level, rational people. To be able to say to others what God has shown to you requires your brain, but you never get that revelation by means of your brain. You will undo yourself if you try, and you will miss the way. So it is on any other line of the natural, we will miss the way. How often we have been brought to the point where in despair we have said, I give it up, I cannot see, I cannot understand! and we have fallen down before the Lord and said, I have extended myself to the last fraction to try and understand and apprehend; now I give it up unless you show and reveal it to me. In the very simplest way, with the greatest of ease, light just begins to filter through, and you do not know exactly when it happened, but you are able to say,

I see now!

That is the nature of spiritual knowledge. It is always like that, it will ever be like that. It is life, it is spirituality. It is that you are in living union with God, and not as merely a fact but a process, you are continually living in union with God.

I can’t improve on that except to say: I, too, once was blind - but now I SEE! (by God’s Amazing Grace)

“Bloggers called them “traitor Democrats”, and the descriptor is apropos. At the time of the vote, sixty-two percent of the American people favored a time-table for a withdrawal, but, more significantly, “seventy percent” of Democrats were so inclined. Voting against this burgeoning tide of anger betrayed the will of the people and party that put these Democrats in office.

Curiously, all of the traitor democrats were huge career recipients of funds from the Israeli lobby. If we took ten Democratic apostates and compared them to ten Democrats who stood by the voters, pro-Israeli PAC contributions were “ten times” greater for the turncoats than those who stayed with their constituencies ($322,000 versus $34,000 on average).

To be specific: Carl Levin, outspoken critic of the war and, we thought, a loyal supporter of the new regime to end it, defected and blithely turned his back on his Michigan support base. Despite his strident anti-war rhetoric, the Grand Rapids Independent reports Levin has supported Bush all the way “consistently funding the war and not introducing any meaningful legislation to bring it closer to an end.” Practically unknown to his constituents, Levin is one of the largest beneficiaries of Pro-Israeli PAC funds collecting $600,000 in career contributions according to the Washington Report on Mideast Affairs.

Barbara Boxer, Denis Kucinich, and Earl Blaumenauer, all opponents of the war, collectively got $73,000, but turncoat-democrats, Dan Durbin, Max Baucus, and Frank Lautenberg scooped up in excess of a million plus untold benes like travel funds.

What comes out in the wash is the best PAC money can buy: Three months before we invaded Iraq, a New York Times poll showed only 30 percent of the American people favored an all-out invasion, but the Israeli lobby (AIPAC) did, and it prevailed. Hardly a sprinkling of Americans favored the “surge”, a meager fourteen percent, but AIPAC did, and the surge is surging as we speak. Fewer than thirty percent of Democrats supported that no-strings-budget, but AIPAC did, and the conclusion plays out another hackneyed chorus of “Whatever AIPAC wants, AIPAC gets.”

In 1992, the director of the Israeli lobby, David Steiner, was surreptitiously recorded bragging about playing a role in selecting the Secretary of State and what he got for Israel: “Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don’t even know about!” When the tape was made public, Steiner resigned, but it underscored the incredible power, access, and influence this lobby has.”

Would the TDig editor please explain why it was decided to remove this article from the home page a week (or less) after its publication—and thereby divert attention away from the discussion—while allowing plenty of other stuff that predated it (Hitchens, et al) to stay put? Also, the name of the person or persons who made the decision would be appreciated.

And, I don’t know. I’m just a reader/commentor like the rest of us, but I did notice myself, that this didn’t stay up as long as most. I’m not sure there was anything sinister involved, since it IS still accessible, but you’re right that it isn’t on the home page, and a few of the “regulars” seemed sort of pissed about the article in general, and the comments may have been making them uneasy. Sometimes truth gets too truthful.

As I said before, first try to get rid of that nasty case of agnosticism!
*******************

Translation: Give up what makes you human. Not in this life.

As human beings, our competitive advantage that allows our survival is loosely called our “intelligence”, but that’s not precise.

It is our ability to reason, to collect facts and apply logic to them that makes us masters of the Earth (good or bad masters is another topic). Down the millenia it has allowed us to master fire, agriculture, basic machinery (levers, wheels and winches), and move from hunter-gathers to growers of food and builders of cities. Faith didn’t bring this about: Reason did. Try building a house using faith instead of reason!

The computer that GodSend types on was not created by faith, but by men and women asking a thousand, a million tiny questions: “Does this belong?” The scientists, working with “Just a theory”, a theory with less evidence than Evolution, invented the semi-conductors that make these computers possible.

Faith didn’t build these—Faith slowed down their creation by over a thousand years. Yes, GodSend, your kind of “my way or the highway Christianity” destroyed the greatest sources of knowledge and burned the men and women who would have moved us forward. They denied our human nature: The Reasoning and progress stopped for a millennium.

Agnosticism uses this basic reasoning ability to ask the same questions your faith “answers”: Who are we? Where do we come from? Why is Right right and Wrong wrong? Why are we Here?

But unlike your blind, hateful superstition, Agnosticism uses what makes us Human and kept us alive to research those questions: Our ability to collect facts and apply logic to them—to reason.

Reason is isn’t faith. It’s the opposite of faith, the enemy of faith, the shining light that leads us away from the darkness and black pit of faith. Faith always leads to killing people as a means of worshipping God. Whether it’s Aztecs chopping out a heart, Christians burning heretics at the stake, or Islamic Jihadists bombing a pizza parlor full of children, all came to their pointless brutal murders via FAITH!

The question isn’t when will I give up Agnosticism? The question is when will YOU use the one thing that makes you different than everything else alive on Earth—your ability to reason?

I know, I know—reason is wasted on you. You’re a victim GodSend, but you are such an example of walking fertilizer it’s hard for me to care.

Windbag, I can only conclude from your last reply that you had the same lobotomy of the mind and heart as ‘Lefty’. No doubt all Zionists are Sickos! Perhaps repetition will cure you both. Repeat these phrases (while you’re thinking of Palestinians) until you have an epiphany:

Hey, Windbag! There is a photo on my website with a black hat Jew holding up a sign that reads: Zionism is Nazism. What, do you suppose, he meant by that? You, Lefty, Sharon, Olmert and all the other Zionists are the Sieg Heil Neonazis in the world - and are likely to be responsible for the real Holocaust, yet to come (unless the Jews of this world put an unceremonious end to your Greater Israel ambitions). Of course, Yahweh has already promised to do much worse than that to the rebellious house of Israel! Being melted in His furnace could ruin your whole day!

*********

Let me guess: You and Sgt Schultz plan to be His instrument in this, right? His hammer and His sword? Just like the “Islamic Martyrs” (terrorist suicide bombers).

Threats of murder and genocide from “GodSend”—that’s debating for you. “Ve are goink to get you CHEWS!”

Hey, Windbag! There is a photo on my website with a black hat Jew holding up a sign that reads: “Zionism is Nazism”. What, do you suppose, he meant by that? You, ‘Lefty’, Sharon, Olmert and all the other Zionists are the “Sieg Heil” Neonazis in the world - and are likely to be responsible for the real Holocaust, yet to come (unless the Jews of this world put an unceremonious end to your ‘Greater Israel’ ambitions). Of course, Yahweh has already promised to do much worse than that to the rebellious house of Israel! Being melted in His furnace could ruin your whole day!

Many people like you are still in the old paradigm and it wont work anymore. People are not scared…it just doesnt work anymore. A disagreement does not make one an anti-semite. You really need to remember that and I certainly take you to task on your charge because it is baseless, but it does show YOU for what you are.

Like Ive said before…your types are in for a Nasty, Nasty surprise.

*****************

Translation of Sgt. Schultz:

“Ven VE are in powah, all you Chews are goink to be in BIC t-r-rubble! Ve are goink to fix you GUT!”

Excellent post for which to thank you. I particularly affirm the “mind one’s own business position” and the “stay out of squabbles” position.

I won’t repaste your sample from George Washington’s speech, but it’s hard to find more appropriate and legitimate documentation, for just how far we have strayed from that advice that he gave. Hopefully readers and posters will take a moment to sort through what that actually means.

The irony and the paradox here and now, is of course the fact that the leadership of America does in fact believe that EVERYTHING is “their business” no matter where on the planet, that “business” is. I guess that’s the proverbial answer to the question on how America’s OIL, came to be under IRAQ’S SOIL.

Once THAT happened, (when OUR oil got under IRAQ’S soil) we proceeded to INITIATE all of these “squabbles”. (or, at least the 43rd george did, with help from below)and now here we are.

Anyway, while none of us actually subscribes to the “isolationist” ideology, (which is backward and self-defeating in the 21st Century)a generous dose of “minding our own business” is the only thing that’s gonna save us right now. If that’s still a possibility.

Would the TDig editor please explain why it was decided to remove this article from the home page a week (or less) after its publication—and thereby divert attention away from the discussion—while allowing plenty of other stuff that predated it (Hitchens, et al) to stay put? Also, the name of the person or persons who made the decision would be appreciated.

there is an isolationist slant to your thinking, which is fine by me, but try telling that to the people who have controlled US foreign polity for over a centurythe (economic) ruling class. they know what side their bread is buttered on.
====================================================
Clem,

It may seem that way. Really, my position is more of a “mind your own business” and “stay out of squables” more than it is isolationist.

Also, my country does not have a responsibility to defend an aggressor, much less in perpetuity. As a tax payer here, I do not identify with that at all. as a citizen, I definitely don’t because it has materially changed my way of life.

You might be interested to know even 200 years ago, George Washington gave sound advice as to how we, as a new nation, should conduct ourselves in our affairs with other countries. Below is a small sample of his farewell speech to the nation:

“Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. ....In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave….. So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation….Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.”

did you deliberately leave out the third main reason osama bin laden mentions as reasons for the attack of 9/11, assuming, btw, that he was the main culprit behind it? OR, was it just an oversight on your part?
====================================================

Hi Clem, no it’s an oversight, his letter is quite long and actually lists many other things. Here is the link to the whole text for everyone to read:

It is just interesting to me the top things relate to Palestine and support of Israel. Of course, one could deduct the policy towards Iraq by Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 has been one designed to defang a threat to the region, mainly our alleged #1 “ally” in the region, Israel.

Given the US longstanding policy of backing up Israel it is really not a stretch of the imagination. Is it?

Especially now, where we see the US govt now being pointed towards de-fanging the next big threat to Israel, Iran, which if by all accounts ever used Nuclear weapons against Israel would by default annihilate a few million Muslims living in Israel and the “occupied territories”

We fought a war and put TEN MILLION men under arms to rid the world of your type. And it is called The Good War.
================================================

You really need to figure out PDQ that the anti-semite charge doesn’t work anymore. Your statement really shows the error in your judgment of what is really happening in this country today…especially all over the internet, which will have an effect on the polls in Nov 2008.

Many people like you are still in the old paradigm and it won’t work anymore. People are not scared…it just doesn’t work anymore. A disagreement does not make one an anti-semite. You really need to remember that and I certainly take you to task on your charge because it is baseless, but it does show YOU for what you are.

Like I’ve said before…your types are in for a Nasty, Nasty surprise.

The good thing is Americans are in the end good judges of character and the character you and Lefty have both displayed here shows exactly what the problems are.

did you deliberately leave out the third main reason osama bin laden mentions as reasons for the attack of 9/11, assuming, btw, that he was the main culprit behind it? OR, was it just an oversight on your part?

as you probably recall he mentions the US and UK sanctions against Iraq which resulted in the deaths of circa one million iraqis, half of them children. perhaps that “reason” given by osama is not so convenient for your “patriotic” criticism of israel.

there is an “isolationist” slant to your thinking, which is fine by me, but try telling that to the people who have controlled US foreign polity for over a century—the (economic) ruling class. they know what side their bread is buttered on.

when a “max shields” tried to raise the issue of american imperialism, in one of the earliest threads, almost no one replied at all, for or against. i can only assume it is not a topic to be discussed, among either the broad Right or broad Left in your country. how saddening.

There is such a thing as left-wing anti-Semitism, and I oppose it. However, only one post on this thread has been anti-Semitic, by someone calling himself Vinnie, a 9-11 conspiracy theorist whose only contribution was “Kike Zionists did 9-11.” Well, I don’t know who that was, could be a Zionist provacateur for all we know, but if you want to call him a left-wing anti-Semite it’s fine with me. There are a couple of Palestinians on this thread; most of the rest of us are American citizens with progressive leanings and strong on civil rights, as you might expect in at Robert Scheer’s Truthdig blog. Some of us are even Jewish, or partly Jewish. We abhor anti-Semitism. For example, I and my father before me have been card-carrying members of the ACLU since its foundation. I was taught by my family to spot anti-Semitism and every other form of racism from childhood. I just know I’m not anti-Semitic, and since I do hate anti-Semitism, when someone calls me anti-Semitic, that’s a mortal insult.

I say Zionism has been a terrible idea since 1890. It seemed to be justified by the Holocaust, but it led to a holocaust for Palestinians just three years later, the Nakba, which supporters of Israel now deny just as neo-Nazis like David Duke deny the Jewish Holocaust. The only remedy for this is for Israel to acknowledge and make reparations for the Nakba, and to change its laws so that Palestinians are fully equal citizens. Israel as it exists is a moral impossibility and it will not stand. If Zionist policies continue to be followed, they will ultimately lead to a second (and final) holocaust for Jewish people which will probably take the rest of civilization with it.

the 1Sgt, you take the ones on the Left - Robert, you are a good Point man in the Center - and Ill takes the ones on the Right! Of course, being the deceptive devils they are, they might attack us from the rear! Whos going to watch out for the ones who want to stab us in the back?

1Sgt…dont waste your time on lefty=ephraim/pesach; he is hardcore gruesome zionist. If he were to see/witness his beloved brutal IDF killers murder dozens of 9, 10, 11, 12 year old Palestinian children, lefty=ephraim would just stand there with a big fat smile on his face. He would be their loyal cheerleader…cheering them on…MORE OF IT GUYS!
=================================================

Lefty is small potatoes Robert. I deal with people like him who are much worse on the War Without End forum. There are armies of lefties and crazed Christian Zionists all over the internet who are 100 times more devious.

BUT, you know what they all FEAR THE MOST?

The fact that we talk and they cannot stop it, nor control it (on the internet). They do anything possible to prevent the few of us around from waking up the rest in the United States about what is REALLY going on around the world. It is a true information war.

I talk to people every day about this subject and the more I do, the better I feel about it because I am doing something about it.

As for 9/11. Well we know from Osama bin Ladens letter to America the top two reasons are: WE SUPPORT ISRAEL and WE stationed troops in Saudi Arabia. He also calls us to Islam, which the religious right has used as “they want to take our freedom”. Regardless, 2/3 of the equation is ISRAEL and TROOPS IN THE ME for ISRAEL’s protection and OIL dominance.

We took out Saddam Hussein, (ISRAEL’s) #1 threat. We are about to do bad things to Iran (ISRAEL’s #2 enemy). Then, what is left is the Syrians and the rest all fall into place.

So, here we have America’s blood and treasure in a war overseas for the protection of Israel and Oil dominance. We have created Terror central in Iraq, virtually handed the place to Iran and now have little choice to either cede it to Iran with red carpet or bomb the shit out of them.

And, we also get to PAY FOR IT ALL.

No thank you. Let the Israelis find some other dumb shits to do the work for them. It’s their problem, not ours as Americans.

the 1Sgt, you take the ones on the Left - Robert, you are a good Point man in the Center - and I’ll takes the ones on the Right! Of course, being the deceptive devils they are, they might attack us from the rear! Who’s going to watch out for the ones who want to stab us in the back?

Id love to go into a history class here, for readers with a mind open enough, or not totally blinded by hatred. But lets not.

I read a lot of opinions here, by people that have neer travelled outside of the US, have never been to the Middle East. And are just plain and simple angry. Foam around the mouth usually doesnt make for good analysis.
===================================================

Please spare me you sanctimonious Israeli-slanted rant. I don’t need a history lesson from you Jager and you are quite mistaken to think people are un-traveled and misinformed. I not only have been to the middle east, but also the Persian Gulf (several times), asia (several times) Africa (several times), and of course Europe, Canada, and Mexico.

People are sick and tired of the BULLSHIT they have had to put up with just so your people in Israel can have their way. I personally don’t want any part of it. You can expect a FIGHT from me for my right not to contribute one IOTA to YOUR problem.

Your statements:

“In fact, Israel had to fight an uphill battle, all by its own against 6 invading neighbours, whom it had invited for peaceful negotiations. That was 1948, after over 50 years of Arab incitement.”

Is a CROCK and you know it. Your people invited themselves back to Palestine after 1000 or more years by way of deception (Balfour Declaration) and wars (1 &2). Israel has been the aggressor ever since. You trespass and expect welcome?

Regardless, none of this is America’s problem. It is your problem. You figure it out, leave America out of it.

Aha! - ‘Lefty’-II has arrived. Misquoting Iran’s leader, who said that Israel’s (Evil) Zionist regime must be removed! These Zionist sympathizers sure are a bunch of deceptive devils Musta learned that from their Zionist idols (who learned it from the Devil, himself!)

The Israel motto seems to be: “By deception we will create ‘Greater Israel’ and the New World Order”. Of course, crimes against humanity, murder of Arab civilians and bulldozing American protesters are also part of their portfolio. Did I mention nuclear blackmail? Did I mention assassination of American political leaders? Did I mention entrapment and bribery? If I mentioned every nasty thing they do, it would be a Never-ending Story!

By Left-Wing Anti-Jewish Bigtry, July 10, 2007 at 10:16 am Link to this comment(Unregistered commenter)

Dear Lefty if you believe that the bigots of Truthdig care about the murder of Jew you are wrong. This is evidenced by the fact that there will never be and never has been an article written on the thousands of Israeli civilians exterminated by neo-Nazi groups like Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas ect. When the leader of Hizbullah says “If Jews gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide” or the leader of Hamas says “We will not recognize Israel, We will not recognize Israel, we will not recognize Israel” or “Israel is a tumor which needs to be removed” or their friend Ahmedinijad says “Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth” they agree. The Neo-Left has firmly aligned itself with these fascists. They don’t care about democracy, or womens rights, of the rights of homosexuals. That is the reason they will never speak out against the numerous human rights violations against Israelis or Muslim for that matter. Hatred of Jews is an age old phenomena that comes from religious intolerance,Fascists on the right and now the neo-Left. Israel is the new Jew which is all-powerful and responsible for the problems of the world. Take a look at what the Nazi leader David Duke has to say. It is identical to that of Democracy Now,Robert Fisk, Norm Finklstein or Noam Chomsky.Why else could a guy like Chris Hedges get away with blaming Jewish control for what the U.S. has done. Antisemitism is alive and well on the neo-Left.

America’s “friend” Israel and its Zionist leaders, as well as all Americans who support Israel or close their eyes to this tragedy must bear responsibility - and will be held accountable (sooner or later)!

It’s time to say “NO!” to Israel, its criminal leaders and all of Israel’s blind supporters.

It’s encouraging to see Robert’s and nahida’s comments. There are the cold facts about Israel’s and the Bush Cabal’s criminal actions (Zionism) and there are the many human consequences of their crimes - crimes against all humanity, really! The cold facts are not always translated into the human suffering they cause. The Zionist-controlled MSM conceals both of these aspects of Zionism from Americans!

1Sgt…don’t waste your time on “lefty=ephraim/pesach”; he is hardcore gruesome zionist. If he were to see/witness his beloved brutal IDF killers murder dozens of 9, 10, 11, 12 year old Palestinian children, lefty=ephraim would just stand there with a big fat smile on his face. He would be their loyal cheerleader…cheering them on…MORE OF IT GUYS!

Just think about what these “truthdig’s” hardcore zionists are like from what we have seen in their comments/posts and what level their racism and sick hatred has been guaged at.

Now, imagine what the more notorious and familiar names of the our famous American zionists, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Eloitt Abrams, Ari Flascher, Chertoff, Bill Kristol and many others…imagine what they are like behind the scenes. Imagine what these guys have been scheming for the Middle-East. Imagine what these hardcore zionists hatred, racism has been like behind the scenes. Look at the mess in Iraq and the Palestine/Israeli conflict. These hardcore zionists fully support Israel’s brutal occupation of the Palestinian people. They support Israel’s Apartheid policies, gobbling up more Palestinian land, more settlements “for Jews only”, more boycotts and economic hardships on the Palestinian population. They support more $$$ billions of American taxpayers dollars to their beloved Israel and its zionist racist policies.

Our real enemies can easily be found in our high government offices and halls of Congress. They all work for the interest of AIPAC & Israel.

They are all terrified that AIPAC will wreak havoc on their careers…if they didn’t follow AIPAC’s goals and objectives.

It might inconvenience a reader or 2 on this site, but this story is so slanted, so rife with lies and inaccuracies, I’d need a new keyboard before I’m done with this.

I don’t digg this article, the untruthful presumption of which is that Israel and the US are in a deadly embrace. In fact, Israel had to fight an uphill battle, all by it’s own against 6 invading neighbours, whom it had invited for peaceful negotiations. That was 1948, after over 50 years of Arab incitement.

I’d love to go into a history class here, for readers with a mind open enough, or not totally blinded by hatred. But let’s not.

I read a lot of opinions here, by people that have ne’er travelled outside of the US, have never been to the Middle East. And are just plain and simple angry. Foam around the mouth usually doesn’t make for good analysis.

Israel is a democracy with flaws. That, against its will is pitted against regimes that bulldozer tens of thousands of the own population (Syria), shoot tens of thousands of other Arabs (as did Jordan in Black September), or minorities (as did Iraq to the Kurds). Maybe these FACTS can bring about some slight doubt. Doubt as to whether the world view of some people that Jews might not be (the only) root of ALL evil. For Jews you may read Israelis, if you’re sincerely opposed to counting yourself among the mildly anti-semitic.

I’m not making it a hitparade of who killed most. Israel is not competing in that league. Doesn’t want to. And never will.

So, please use a sense that goes a bit beyond the regurgitated crap you can so easily find. And become a human being yourself too, in the process

“I said to the Shabak, the Mossad, ‘you didn’t succeed to break me, you didn’t succeed to make me crazy.’”

“Mordechai Vanunu, former Israeli nuclear technician, upon being released from Ashkelon’s Shikma prison on April 21st, 2004, where he served 18 years.

They were words of courage and defiance, uttered by a man who embodied both. Mordechai Vanunu spent 18 years in jail, a full 11 of them in solitary confinement, for revealing Israel’s yet undeclared nuclear capability to the world. He had emerged from Shikma with arms outstretched, repeatedly flashing the victory sign ­ or was it peace? ­ and refused to answer questions posed to him in Hebrew from the awaiting media. “I am proud and happy to do what I did,” he unabashedly stated.

And what he has done since will now land him back behind bars.

An Israeli court has just sentenced Vanunu to six months in jail for violating the terms of his parole, which prohibit him from having any contact with foreigners or visiting the West Bank. As in all matters, he was fearless in doing both.

It thus behooves us to retell this man’s remarkable story, lest we forget what a person of conscience can achieve.

Mordechai Vanunu was the first to expose Israel’s dirty little secret: it was a major atomic power. He worked as a technician at the Dimona nuclear plant in the Negev desert from 1976 - 1985. Then, in a 1986 interview with London’s Sunday Times, he disclosed pictures that not only proved Israel had the capacity to produce nuclear weapons, but was actually in possession of them.”

Mordechai Vanunu has courage and he told the truth about Israel’s top secret; Israel is producing “nuclear weapons” and has been for a long time. Our American officials, in the meantime, they all just remain silent; they don’t dare to speak out.

I think Peter RV and others are probably right when they say we are wasting our time arguing with Zionists like Lefty on this blog. What we need to be doing is convincing our fellow Americans to stop supporting Israel. Especially Jewish Americans, of course - but if you get a Lefty, there is nothing to do but save your words for somebody who might listen to them. We also should be spending our time impeaching Cheney and electing Dennis Kucinich. If investigations are pursued to the end and there is full public disclosure, then I think a picture of the world may emerge that will change the parameters of the politically possible.

Hmmm, exposed as a crass propagandist, our moronic, resident fascist/Zionist, Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach just keeps plugging away. I considered that we simply re-title his 39 successive posts. Instead of “Innocent Israelis Murdered by [Putative] Palestinian Terrorists…” we can simply insert, “Justice Meeted Out to Zionist War Criminals by Palestinian Patriots.”

What a difference a simple change in nomenclature makes!

But, then, I am not one who likes propaganda, no matter which side engages in it. I am not interested in headlines. Facts and evidence are the key, and for the past forty years, the two facts that stands out above all others are (1) the Israelis are the occupier; the Palestinians the occupied. (2) The occupation violates UN Resolution 242.

“Lefty” on the other hand has no interests in facts. Like all “followers” of totalitarian movements, Lefty is impervious to any facts that do not fit within the Zionist confines of his thoroughly indoctrinated mind. Within that tiny sphere, he accepts, without question, anything his Zionist masters tell him. He actually believes that all he has to do to convince others of Zionist “truth” is to post what he has been told, over, and over, and over again, until somehow, by its sheer volume, the propaganda sinks in.

Absent years and years of serious therapy, I doubt he will ever change. How sad.

In the mean time, for those who are truly interested in an end to violence, I would suggest that the solution is nowhere as complex as the Zionists would have us believe. End the occupation, remove all illegal settlements, create a viable and independent Palestinian state which would become Israel’s trading partner, treat your Palestinian brothers and sisters as you would your own, and give peace a chance.

Unfortunately for you Lefty the deaths that concern me (Americans) more are those from US servicemen who have died, including the original 3,000 in the WTC on 9/11, when the Arabs attacked US soil. So we are talking of 6,500 people. Many Americans want to know….WHY?

ITW…Your post didnt even come close to the truth. You beat around the bush…with NO direct response to the below request.

Can you answer truthfully to the request, below? I dont need any apologies from you at all. Just be truthful!

Your last post has discredited you and what you accused me of. All of us are sick and tired of your garbage about anti-semetism.

Zionism is wrong; Zionism is the worst forms of racism.

ITW…you are full of hot wind and that is about all you got!
================================================

ITW…I sure would like for you to show me where from all my posts/comments on truthdig that I am, as per your statement, truly anti-semitic, committed to the total destruction of Israel and dont give a shit if 5.5 million Israelis are slaughtered

There you go ITW, here is your chance to tell the truth. Please show/provide for me that I made such statements. Where & when did I posted such statements/comments?

If you are going to quote me, please quote me word by word and ITW, come back with your response and confirmation to the exact above…ASAP.

I have a very good memory…ITW!

*************************************************

Robert, you have gone truly delusional. I have answered and shown you EXACTLY what you said, and what it had to have meant. I have not lied, not once. But you have, repeatedly and baldly. In fact, all you can do is bluster and invent foul names for people who you don’t like. What constitutes being the target of Robert’s abusive pen? Disagreeing with Robert.

You refuse to acknowledge what I wrote, AND WHAT YOU WROTE AS WELL!

Your “very good memory” is clearly nothing but another lie. You remember what you want, the way you want. Which is really pitiful because what you ACTUALLY POSTED is there for all to see.

You can bluster and obfuscate and say I lied a hundred thousand times and it will be just as untrue as if you said it just once. You claimed I was part of some conspiracy, knew Lefty and Lilmamzer beforehand, trained with them under some Israeli organization and other PURE FANTASY. It’s nothing but a lie and YOU HAVE NO BASIS FOR THAT LIE!

In fact, for that deliberately false accusation, you owe ME an apology. Of course I won’t get it. You don’t have the backbone (and other attributes) to admit you are wrong or have done something wrong and to own up to it.

I am done with you, your anti-semitic crap, your hatred for all things Jewish, and your love and admiration for terrorists who not only target and deliberately murder women and children, but also CHEERED the worst attack ever perpetrated on our nation. And, to make things WORSE, you don’t blame those responsible. Instead you buy into the Arab shit that it really was the Jews who attacked on 9/11, not 15 Saudi Arabians and 4 other Arabs.

You don’t understand the difference between LEGITIMATE criticism of both Israel and the Palestinians, nor do you care about it. You don’t even want to see a fair and safe peace for all parties. You want Hamas to take over Israel and you don’t give a shit if the 5.5 millions Jews there are slaughtered.

You don’t deserve logical arguments and facts because you are unable to process and accept them in your fascist paranoia.

ITW…Your post didn’t even come close to the truth. You beat around the bush…with NO direct response to the below request.

Can you answer truthfully to the request, below? I don’t need any apologies from you at all. Just be truthful!

Your last post has discredited you and what you accused me of. All of us are sick and tired of your garbage about “anti-semetism”.

Zionism is wrong; Zionism is the worst forms of racism.

ITW…you are full of hot wind and that is about all you got!
================================================

“ITW…I sure would like for you to show me where from all my posts/comments on truthdig that I am, as per your statement, truly anti-semitic, committed to the total destruction of Israel and dont give a shit if 5.5 million Israelis are slaughtered

There you go ITW, here is your chance to tell the truth. Please show/provide for me that I made such statements. Where & when did I posted such statements/comments?

If you are going to quote me, please quote me word by word and ITW, come back with your response and confirmation to the exact above…ASAP.

Oh, ‘Lefty’ - where did I make ANY statement (pro or con) about Islam? I DID say that the Zionist leaders of Israel are responsible for the genocide of Palestinians (especially women, children and other non-combatants) and constantly violate the most basic standards of morality. They rebel against Yahweh and deliberately violate His Commandments EVERY DAY! Like He said: “I will leave them there {in the furnace} and MELT them”. It’s a toss-up between nukes and a close encounter with a celestial object. In either case, Desert Glass is the result (it’s happened before!).

“Each time you make such an absurd and slanderous assertion I have another piece of evidence that you are truly anti-semitic, committed to the total destruction of Israel and dont give a shit if 5.5 million Israelis are slaughtered. Since ANYONE who disagrees with you MUST be part of some sort of demonic conspiracy, you think EXACTLY as fascists the world over think.

———————————————————

ITW…I sure would like for you to show me where from all my posts/comments on truthdig that I am, as per your statement, truly anti-semitic, committed to the total destruction of Israel and dont give a shit if 5.5 million Israelis are slaughtered

There you go ITW, here is your chance to tell the truth. Please show/provide for me that I made such statements. Where & when did I posted such statements/comments? “

Robert maybe you remember everything I say but you sure don’t remember everything YOU say!:
I think that lefty/ephraim, ill-lie-mamzer and inherit the wind are no strangers to each other. There is a possibility that they work together, received/attended the same Hasbara course(s) and/or training. One can tell that they like to hank around the same threads, sometimes they just spread out as a deceptive technique.

The rest is the inevitable inference that flows from such an absurd statement.

Because I disagree with you and challenge your sources, YOU claim I’m part of a conspiracy. You can’t deny you did that, it’s right there. You claim I must have attended a “Hasbara” course, and must have attended it with Lefty and Lilmamzer—whoever they are, and whatever Hasbara is. Talk about a LIE!

So I can INFER (you know what “infer” means, don’t you Robert?) that your perpetual disdain and discounting of Jewish losses, of the Holocaust’s importance that you MAY be anti-semitic. But to lock it in you quote explicitly Palestinian propaganda sites’ manifestos as if they are actual fact. You are intelligent enough to know they spewing lies, but you post them anyway.

Because the facts don’t matter to you. The sites you quote are propaganda for people who believe The Protocols Of The Elders of Zion were factual, and spout that Zionists collaborated with the Nazis, who were sworn to destroy them—totally absurd.

But since you have NO problem posting this garbage you are either a total moron or an anti-semite.

If you wish to claim that you are a total moron, I’ll be happy to humbly appologize for saying you are a proven anti-semite.

Cerena, while your comment is well-taken, it can be enhanced when one considers what our idiot president actually said. As quoted by Amy & David Goodman in “Static:”

“See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.”—Pres. George W. Bush, 2005.

One of the three major slogans in George Orwell’s “1984” was “War is Peace!” As revealed by Mark Crispin Miller, in “Cruel & Unusual,” President George W. Bush informed the nation: “When we talk about war, we are really talking about peace.”

The point about the phrase “global war on terror” being an effective bit of Orwellian propaganda was covered in my prior post, #84403. However, what must be recognized is that the military-industrial complex put Orwellian propaganda to use even before “1984” was committed to print in 1949. The end of WW II brought with it every war profiteer’s nightmare—peace. Theirs was a simple, linguistic solution. There would be no more War Department. Instead, it would become the Department of Defense.

No matter how many nations we would invade over the next 60 years, an ever increasing percentage of the federal budget would go to “military preparedness” in order to “maintain peace.”

Many years ago, when I was in college, a colleague noted: “If the Soviet Union did not exist, we would have to invent one.” Then, the Soviets did the unthinkable. They suffered a total economic collapse, driven by their previous participation in the Cold War arms race and empire competition.

For the military-industrial complex the phrase “global war on terror” furnishes the perfect enemy, an unseen phantom menace who is everywhere and anywhere at all times, requiring endless war, and with it, run-away military spending. The U.S. and Israeli governments stress the word “terrorist” for a good reason. It invokes “fear.” Fear not only drives military spending but has an emotional appeal that leads individuals to abandon reason and analysis, both of which pose a danger to the amoral doctrines supporting U.S. and Israeli imperialism.

 Comment#85050 by Ernest Canning on 7/08 at 9:52 am
From your post to a few of us:

 All effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand….Propaganda had to be continuous and unvarying in its message. It should never admit a glimmer of doubt in its own claims, or concede the tiniest element of right in the claims of the other side. Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf.
This just SO FITS the entire theme of the war on terror campaign. And ya know, george has said it himself, in many speeches. Hes actually come out and said, that he is going to KEEP REPEATING HIMSELF-, over and over, until we the people get it.

And, the propaganda has indeed been unvarying in its message. For 6 long years now, theyve been bombarding us with the same old fear mongering, and the shadowy terrorists, and how we have to REMAIN IN FEAR, of this huge cult that is going to take over the world, and form some sort of Religious Kingdom right here at home.

And, they wouldnt be far from correct, since we DO in fact have this shadowy religious kingdom developing here, but its not a Caliphate. It a cabal of end-timers who cant wait for the apocalypse to arrive on its own, so theyre trying to rush it along.

Meantime, they keep trying to use this same shadowy boogy-man to keep us all in fear for our lives.

Its the same with the rants and hysteria from ITW, about the impending slaughter of 5.5 million Jews. There seems to be little point in even responding to such built-in hysteria and exaggeration. Its like they think if they repeat this stuff enough, they can make everybody believe it.

And, that has worked for a really long time, because most folks have no other point of reference, especially about things and places that are far away. But, technology has certainly changed all of that, and there is now far more information available. (which is why cheney had to immediately start locking everything up). Because, they just cant keep fooling all of the people, all of the time. It backfires.

Anyway, thanks. Its amazing to be able to see these very concepts in action. Future historians will have a field day with all of this 21st century stuff.

Lefty, your propaganda instructor at Hasbra just called. He was upset that my previous post suggested only that you be given a failing grade for continuing to post idiotic “point scoring” rants before a well-educated “Truth”-dig audience, a practice which exposed the link between Hasbra and Mein Kampf. The guy plans to first expel you from CHP (College of Hasbra Propaganda), then ask the Mossad pay you a visit before you do any more damage to the Zionist cause.

P.S. Interesting that you chose roman numerals. I wonder if you will know how to continue when you get past 50.

“Abu, you and your BIFPAT have been steal my and other defenders of Israel material since I started posting here. Youre a small man with a small mind and you aint got nuthin. Youre a fucking looser.”

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lefty=ephraim, your zionist name….

Can you give any exact examples…? Make yourself a winner here. Your stench is seeping out of your manure filled stall. Go ahead and give examples! Prove your lies to us!

I wonder if ‘Lefty’ is familiar with all those white, ‘Christian’, fundamentalist morons who just LOVE the rogue State of Israel and Zionists!?

If ‘Lefty’ keeps talking like this, he’ll have the Mossad after him - not to mention AIPAC, Abe Foxman, Daniel Pipes and all those other Zionists who have formed an alliance with those ‘moron’ white ‘Christians’. It’s obvious that ‘Lefty’s brain and heart lobotomy was completely successful! He doesn’t know if he’s on 1st, 2nd or 3rd! (actually, he’s in left field - waaaaaaaaaaaay out in left field - where all the ‘Lefty’s belong!)

“Robert aka Abu the Kiffiyeh, [of BIFPAT] the borderline retarded, arab, troll, ran out of material about 3 months ago. All he has left is to try to steal my material.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lefty=ephraim/pesach…why would I want to steal your zionist “Hasbara” propaganda garbage. That is a paranoid & sick idiot’s statement. I would NEVER even touch it with a 100 foot pole. Your sick zionist racism is totally yours…all of it…belongs to you. I do NOT want any part of it.

You deserve all the humanity rewards, credits & recognitions. You are truly a hardcore bi-polar zionist. Your posts are a reflection of your racism, hatred and your sick mental state.

Why don’t you take off that damn brutal IDF uniform off…just for the sake of the children!

Is it possible for you to show B’tSelem’s, the Israeli information center on Human Rights in the occupied territories, fatalities figures/numbers from September 2000 to present for both people?

At least B’TSelem provides the figures/statistics for both people, Israelis & Palestinians.

That is a BRILLIANT observation! You have either (1) been reading my website ( http://novalight.org - PROPHECIES) or (2) been reading Alan Hart’s book: “Zionism: The Greatest Enemy of the Jews”. Congrats!

Once Zionists have fomented enough anti-Semitism to force all the Jews in America and the rest of the world to move to Israel, their job will all but done. There will remain only the final holocaust to conclude their grand design.

I have read the article and some of the comments posted, I just want to say that I agree with Sgt 100%. I am Persian, and an American citizen. I have to give the Israelis a lot of credit; they have really got us from all angles (media, government, finance). I love what America claims to stands for. But that is really a myth these days. The problem is that Americans are too stupid or distracted to care. They just want it simple like in a comic book. So the media feeds them this horseshit and they eat it up without questioning why we support Israel so much. As long as the Muslim world is portrayed as an alien culture, which we have nothing in common with (as the media has so effectively accomplished) then the stage is for Americans to accept our blind allegiance to Israel. To say all this I feel like I have to give a disclaimer that I do not hate any race or religion. I feel like I have to say this because the Israel influence has made it taboo if not a crime to say anything bad about Israel policies by equating them with anti-Semitism. This is a great article and anyone who doesn’t think it is correct is either a Jewish/Israeli nationalist or just ignorant to what is going on. This article is not a far-flung conspiracy theory; it is simply what is happening right now in the world.

Robert, you are out of your fucking mind. Your conspiracy theories have rotted your brain and left you a paranoid lunatic. I have NO idea who Lefty or lilmamzer are—I just know enough Yiddish to know what mamzer means. I dont know where they are or anything about them. In fact, Leftys posting of EVERY Israeli killed by terrorists is like your postings…Mostly I skip over them.———————————————————————-

“Each time you make such an absurd and slanderous assertion I have another piece of evidence that you are truly anti-semitic, committed to the total destruction of Israel and dont give a shit if 5.5 million Israelis are slaughtered. Since ANYONE who disagrees with you MUST be part of some sort of demonic conspiracy, you think EXACTLY as fascists the world over think.”

———————————————————

ITW…I sure would like for you to show me where from all my posts/comments on truthdig that I am, as per your statement, “truly anti-semitic, committed to the total destruction of Israel and don’t give a shit if 5.5 million Israelis are slaughtered”

There you go ITW, here is your chance to tell the truth. Please show/provide for me that I made such statements. Where & when did I posted such statements/comments?

If you are going to quote me, please quote me word by word and ITW, come back with your response and confirmation to the exact above…ASAP.

You can’t have a ‘reasonable’ discussion with ‘Lefty’. You could have a more reasonable discussion with A. Sharon than with ‘Lefty’. Can you imagine an entire country filled with ‘Lefty’s? The Palestinians don’t have to imagine it! They pray for deliverance from ‘Lefty’s all the time.

What should we do with all the ‘Lefty’s in America? Send them to Israel, of course! (and you thought I was going to say “extraordinarily rendition” him to Egypt, right?) Of course, Gitmo will soon have a few empty cages!

People like you will have one big SURPRISE coming to you when you find out there are no Arab trolls (in the same way you have Jewish trolls). Most Arabs have a hard time with English and certainly carrying on an educated conversation in English because they don’t know the language well enough—what this means to you is that you can tell them apart right away.

Many people on these boards responding to people like you are Americans. Yep, and many of us are awakening to the issues. It will indeed be a NASTY, NASTY surprise.

Also, just because we disagree with YOUR ideas does not make us Islamists, arabs, filthy pigs, assholes, terrorists or whatever else you like to call us. But it does give us a good idea of what you think of your fellow human being, namely the arabs.

Lastly, I was wondering if you could Fast Forward your list of Israelis killed by Arabs to 2007.

all i meant to say was that “lefty” must be an arab troll whose continuous and insane postings have no other result than to discredit zionism. a responsible zionist would do no such thing.

it’s funny that, as the word about israel’s murderous policies in palestine spreads, its defenders get more and more “crazy.”

dershowitz is one example but “lefty” is another, and, in his case, it borders on outright lunacy. i can’t imagine his contibtutions doing any good at all for his “cause.” and calling himself “lefty” also discredits the left in america.

it’s like their world is coming apart. fun to watch, actually. “no meaning where none intended”, lefty.

“Robert, you are out of your fucking mind. Your conspiracy theories have rotted your brain and left you a paranoid lunatic. I have NO idea who Lefty or lilmamzer are—I just know enough Yiddish to know what mamzer means. I dont know where they are or anything about them. In fact, Leftys posting of EVERY Israeli killed by terrorists is like your postings…Mostly I skip over them.”———————————————————————-
Lefty,

At least you sound like a human being in this post instead of a propaganda-braying megaphone. As I have said before, I believe both you and Robert are who you say you are, American citizens as I am. I don’t know if you have gotten any special training in propaganda techniques or read the Hasbara document. I take you at your word on this. Please, I only ask you to moderate the number of your posts and make some effort to engage the rest of us as human beings, rather than try to shout everybody down.

If it helps any, I think we agree that the process of brainwashing young children that takes place in fundamentalist Muslim schools is horrifying.

my very own 2 cents…
Lefty. THere are NO innocents’in Israel. Period. Every person residing there will, for eternity, not be accepted nor safe from harm. In short, get out or be hated. What part of these facts can’t you grasp? Your “bias” is obvious. If I/they don’t want you, and yours, to live next to them, you shouldn’t. At least not, if you expect no problems in your life. But, that’s a decision left up to you, isn’t it? Get one thing straight…they don’t WANT YOU THERE !!You can provide all the reasons (mostly religious) why you are there, but that doesn’t change the resistance to it, it ONLY strenghthens it. My point is a very simple one. Very simple. WE/the U.S. of A. shouldn’t be giving one penny of aid to your cause. Mother Nature, in her infinite wisdom, has made your encrouchment in Palestine “UNVIABLE”. That means that, no matter how many gov’t's (some offered, other bought), support you & your cause(s), Mother Nature says “NO WAY”!! Advice? Pull back, consolidate, and negotiate your survival as a country. Accept that you’re not welcome and “negotiate” your country’s survival. We/USA shouldn’t go into the “red” supporting your useless folly. We, as a country, need to sever all ties to your “experiment” that you call a country. You need, if indeed you are viable, to stand on your own two legs, like a growing child, and we need to let you guys “walk” on your own. We/U.S.A. are not supposed to be a religious gov’t. We are “supposed” to be non religious, as our Constitution demands. We/the U.S.A. needs to force “AIPAC” to declare themselves as a “foreign” lobbying organization, and thereby be forced to adhere to that classification(by law).
But, Lefty, please continue your “unbiased fact(s) and opinion(s). You appear, through them, to be a real A-Hole !!

Robert, you are welcome. There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind this Lefty is a Jew, American, Israeli or both, as many of them are in fact dual nationals. But their allegiance usually stays with Israel.—————————————————————————
Quite right. That’s the way it is. Thanks for your very valuable contribution. I have Lefty figured for an American citizen, not Israeli, but as far as he is concerned, it is clear that his allegiance to Israel, that is Zionism, far outweighs any allegience to the United States. And this situation is unfortuately producing the worst kind of blowback against Jews in this country. But the most perverse thing is that the Zionists like it that way, because according to their calculations, it just means that all American Jews will have to move to Israel. Lefty will hang around braying his hate-filled crap until the rest are gone to Israel and completely under the control of the Zionists.

Wow, that is really impressive. Lefty is sure following the scriptof that Hasbra documentto the letter. And yes, it sure is annoying to those of us interested in serious political discussion. And yes, these propaganda tools are exactly the same as those recommended and practiced by Hitler, as lucidly set forth in Mein Kampf. The Zionists will keep right on braying this stuff through every media outlet available, so the volume will drown out the voices of reason, which, like Hitler, they hope and believe will always be a small minority unable to stop the totalitarian drive to power.

Lefty’s comments are spam. I wouldn’t mind some of it, but that’s the trouble with spam - there’s no end to it. It is making communication difficult, even with more reasonable Zionists like ITW or possibly uh clem, who has also complained about Lefty. We can set our email filters to prevent spam from getting to us, but we can’t do that in this public forum. That is the responsibility of the forum moderators. Perhaps it is time for those of us who have had to endure Lefty for months on the many threads where these issues are being discussed to get together and talk with the Truthdig moderators to see if we can improve this situation, which does hurt Truthdig by deteriorating the quality of the discussion.

1st Sgt, I would add to your these people are not our friends and most assuredly not our ally, that any nation which practices apartheid is also most assuredly not a democracy.
=================================================
I agree completely Ernest. Thanks for pointing that out. Not sure how you feel about Jimmy Carter, but did you read his book…“Palestine, Peace not apartheid”?

I thought it was well written and a gave a great background on the subject of middle east peace.

1Sgt…thanks for the link to Hasbara Techniques Handbook. I was just looking over the content of the handbook and I can see that lefty=ephraim/pesach, this thread fanatical zionist, has been utilizing the Hasbara techniques for quite sometime.

I always felt that lefty was a fanatic zionist. He stated that he is not Jewish or an Israeli. I think that he is an atheist/agnostic (btw, he has a right to his beliefs status); therefore, he can say than he is NOT Jewish when he is asked if he is or not.
=================================================

Robert, you are welcome. There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind this “Lefty” is a Jew, American, Israeli or “both”, as many of them are in fact “dual nationals”. But their allegiance usually stays with Israel.

Thanks so much for all of this information on the manual, and the highly advanced methods of propaganda and superiority training. I continue to learn more and more everyday, and it all falls right into place; filling in a lot of the blanks. Its takes a long time for a fundamentally trusting individual to acutally wrap ones mind around this sort of mentality.

Still it explains much, if not all.

===============================================
Cyrena, Robert and anyone else finding the hasbara information interesting/valuable…you’re most welcome.

Cyrena I must tell you I completely agree with your statement: “Its takes a long time for a fundamentally trusting individual to acutally wrap ones mind around this sort of mentality.”

I, for a long, long time would not believe it when people tried to explain the very intricate relationship we Americans have with Israel. The many discrepancies in our foreign policy, the enormous economic and military aid we have been giving them, the relationship our US military has with the IDF and much, much more.

When I actually read and got myself better informed on these issues I started to realize these people really are not our friends and for sure not an “ally”, as some people like to say.

In all of this discussion I should add you really have various extremes of people with respect to this subject and when you start discussing the issues on the internet with people you will see it’s sometimes hard to carry a conversation because of them. You first have the neo nazis, then the Christian Zionists, the Jewish Zionists, the naive Jews, the extremist Islamists, moderate muslims, plenty of “bubba’s”, and then some real patriots, which I like to include myself in that category.

I served my country for 24 years in the US military and I hate to see our country become what it has. I think we Americans have lost our democracy. As hard as it is to say it. I must admit it. Fundamentally nothing will change in 2008 when the democrats fully come to power.

That is because the Israeli Lobby has practically every US politician in their pocket.

Have you ever wondered why everyone of them makes a pilgrimage to Israel? Why not Burkina Faso, heck, why don’t they all go to Niger?

We need FREEDOM here again. REAL FREEDOM. Not indenture for Israel.

Pretty much the entire Arab world identifies us with Israel.

WHY?

Why must the worlds entire population of 6.6 BILLION people live in TERROR because 15 million Jews worldwide can’t make peace with the Arabs from whom they took land by force or deception.

To Robert., the 1Sgt, Cyrena & Tony Wicher: Consider the following from Hasbra:

(1) “The person who sets the agenda will usually win the debate…Uncritical audiences believe something if they hear it first and hear it often…Being proactive…can force Palestinian activists to struggle to make themselves heard.”

(2) “The aim of the Israel activist point scorer is to try to make as many comments that are positive about Israel as possible…Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyse [sic.] what they hear….Central to point scoring is the ability to disguise point scoring by giving the impression of genuine debate…Point scoring needs to be focused….Only two or three points have a chance of ‘sticking.”

Hasbra provides a specific example of a “point” to be scored: “Israel is defending itself against terrorists.” This is the single, simplistic “point” of the now 32 successive posts by Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach.

This idea of latching on to a few simplistic “points” and then hammering on them over-and-over again did not originate with Hasbra. Consider the following:

“All effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand….Propaganda had to be continuous and unvarying in its message. It should never admit a glimmer of doubt in its own claims, or concede the tiniest element of right in the claims of the other side.”— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf.

If I were one of the Hasbra propaganda instructors, however, I would have to give Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach a failing grade, for he did not take into account Hasbra’s warning, “Point scoring can irritate audiences who are genuinely committed seriously about their views or a subject.”

‘I think that lefty/ephraim, ill-lie-mamzer and inherit the wind are no strangers to each other. There is a possibility that they work together, received/attended the same Hasbara course(s) and/or training. One can tell that they like to hank around the same threads, sometimes they just spread out as a deceptive technique.”

Robert, you are out of your fucking mind. Your conspiracy theories have rotted your brain and left you a paranoid lunatic. I have NO idea who Lefty or lilmamzer are—I just know enough Yiddish to know what “mamzer” means. I don’t know where they are or anything about them. In fact, Lefty’s posting of EVERY Israeli killed by terrorists is like your postings…Mostly I skip over them.

I have never been to Israel, have never knowingly been in contact with any government or private organization based in Israel that’s involved in politics. The ONLY organization I have ANY contact with in Israel is the one that makes Dolphin brand robotic pool cleaners! Maybe you think that’s subversive, but I think that’s your own cognitive dissonance. I don’t speak Hebrew and I am a committed Agnostic who was never Bar Mitzvah’d.

The fact that I VEHEMENTLY disagree with you and challenge your absurd, inane and totally propagandistic “evidence” is no valid reason to assume I therefore MUST be part of some zionist “conspiracy”. I simply follow the Ayn Rand rule that contradictions do not exist. When you find one, check your premise and your logic.

Each time you make such an absurd and slanderous assertion I have another piece of evidence that you are truly anti-semitic, committed to the total destruction of Israel and don’t give a shit if 5.5 million Israelis are slaughtered. Since ANYONE who disagrees with you MUST be part of some sort of demonic conspiracy, you think EXACTLY as fascists the world over think.

You get your “evidence” from Palestinian propaganda websites, who are TOTALLY sympathetic to the neo-nazis and the holocaust denial bastards.

THAT is the best you can do when you aren’t eating up bandwidth quoting articles in full length from unreliable sources?

Seeing “conspiracies” everywhere is a sign of deep trouble. Get help for your own sake.

1Sgt…thanks for the link to “Hasbara ‘Techniques’ Handbook”. I was just looking over the content of the handbook and I can see that “lefty=ephraim/pesach”, this thread fanatical zionist, has been utilizing the “Hasbara” techniques for quite sometime.

Lefty=ephraim/pesach…most probably has attended a seminar/quick course in “Hasbara Techniques” in the last 2 weeks or so. He was almost totally absent from truthdig’s threads during that time.

I always felt that “lefty” was a fanatic zionist. He stated that he is not Jewish or an Israeli. I think that he is an atheist/agnostic (btw, he has a right to his beliefs status); therefore, he can say than he is NOT Jewish when he is asked if he is or not.

Lefty/ephraim is a hardcore US zionist; he received his brainwashing and much of his racist zionist ideologies…right here in these United States.

I think that lefty/ephraim, ill-lie-mamzer and ‘inherit the wind’ are no strangers to each other. There is a possibility that they work together, received/attended the same “Hasbara” course(s) and/or training. One can tell that they like to hank around the same threads, sometimes they just spread out as a deceptive technique.

These 3 zionists are on a mission of deception, plant doubts, character assassinations, propaganda, changing the topics, sidetrack the main issues, promote and defend zionism and Israel’s racism/apartheid systems in the most aggressive ways.

They are Israel zionism’s foaming guard dogs. Notice that other human life is not important to zionists. ONLY Jewish lives are most important.

They believe that Jewish blood is “SUPERIOR” to other people’s blood.

One can see that “lefty/ephraim” mental state is deteriorating daily. He exhibits paranoia/ schizophrenia and other disorders.

I just wonder if this lefty/ephraim can be trusted with anything. He maybe a teacher, or works in some government agency. Can you imagine what he might do to an Arab American family and their children? His hatred and racism are out of control!

These guys keep flashing those common “anti-semitic” flags at any criticism of Israel and its nazi zionism. But notice they can criticize Arabs, Palestinians, Moslems, Christians…etc…to them that is perfectly OK. Isn’t that a form of “anti-semitism”?

Can we start flashing flags back at them too!

Anyway, just wanted to shine a small light at who these guys are or who they may be. They are under lots of peer pressure to keep they zionist propaganda going. They are getting desperate and often hysterical.

1Sgt…keep those great links coming. The more we expose this sick & racist zionism, the more likely that truthdig’s readers, commenters and visitors will have a good chance to see the true colors of Nazi Zionism and its fanatic followers.

Thanks so much for all of this information on the “manual”, and the highly advanced methods of propaganda and “superiority training”. I continue to learn more and more everyday, and it all falls right into place; filling in a lot of the blanks. It’s takes a long time for a fundamentally trusting individual to acutally wrap one’s mind around this sort of mentality.

Im curious as well, about the legitimate Zionism. Its difficult for me to reconcile those concepts.

Ill wait for the answer on that.

*************************

Meantime, LEFTY just what the hell is your problem? You sound like youve been on some kind of tweaking bender. STAY AWAY from that stuff!!! If its not that, then you are on a very bad end of a manic cycle, and you need to just check yourself in, or get somebody to do it for you. But STOP with all of this ranting. Im serious. Cut this shit out.

“i just figured it out: lefty is a phony. he is actually an arab terrorist with access to the web whose main purpose, judging by the sheer amount of crap he posts, is to discredit legitimate zionism.”————————————————————————-
Uh, clem…

Please explain what “legitimate Zionism” is. I say there is no legitimate Zionism, except in a religious sense that is completely different from and in fact diametrically opposite to the secular Jewish netionaism that we know as Zionism. So give us your concept of “legitimate Zionism”, and let’s see how well it holds up under analysis.