Will you take lithium ion battery to save your power ?

All we know lithium ion battery has many advantages compare to other battery, like big capacity, small weight&size, fast charging, long life&cycle use, Environment-friendly, safe and No exploding in fire. Meanwhile, it has one disadvantage: high price.

So will you take li ion battery to save your power ?

I am from a lithium ion battery manufacturer, I want to know your real thinking .

Lithium technology hasn't reached a point of being a supreme method of storage for solar. Price per watt isn't relative to Grid Parity.
1) the price of the batteries are still high. Roughly 75%~90% higher in cost than AGM deep cycle, and the cost isn't relative to the savings in proportionate weight density, while the excuse with manufacturers is that the manufacturing is more meticulous, which I would argue, is simplified compared to the chemical processes of AGM.
2)The term "memory loss" in retrospect to Lithiums is vague, only because there is instability during charging even with the most expensive of charge controllers. Lithiums have a life cycle that hasn't exactly been determined. while the claims are there are 1000's of charges when compared to AGM, there are other deteriorating factors to lithiums. Case in point, companies like Tesla, Honda, Nissan, Toyota. Are looking for alternative Battery solutions such as Nihm, and NiCad, because consumers cannot afford the expense of lithum ION/Phosphate replacements.
3)Charge controllers for lithium ion and Lithium Phosphate are 30% higher in cost than charge controllers for AGM.
4) AGM deep cycles when compared to Lithiums actually have a higher tolerance to heat, which is one of the many factors while even in a state of charge Lithiums are much more sensitive.
5) Lithium Phosphate LiPo4 is probably better for solar and handles a better resistance to deteriorating heat when compared to Lithium Ion.

I build solar generators for one of my LLC's. Customers want the lighter weight battery for its capacity, but aren't willing to spend the additional cost for lithium ion/phosphate charge controllers, or for the cost of the battery. We are probably another 10 years out before the "technology" is perfected, and will become more conservative in cost. At the moment consumers are more concerned with whats called the return on investment, and lithium isn't at the moment the most practical, even when I get quantities of 100ah Lithium phosphate batteries from china at $200 a pop.

At the moment consumers are more concerned with whats called the return on investment, and lithium isn't at the moment the most practical, even when I get quantities of 100ah Lithium phosphate batteries from china at $200 a pop.

Can you be more specific? There are several types of Lithium secondary cells that use phosphate. The particular one which is felt to be most stable and safe at the moment is Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4).

Did you mean to say Lithium Iron Phosphate rather than Lithium ION/Phosphate?

Can you be more specific? There are several types of Lithium secondary cells that use phosphate. The particular one which is felt to be most stable and safe at the moment is Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4).

Did you mean to say Lithium Iron Phosphate rather than Lithium ION/Phosphate?

So the main problem still is the high price can not be accepted by the users.
But the li ion battery price has getting down recently.
For example, a 48V 30AH battery pack , LiFePO4, fatory price is $565.

So the main problem still is the high price can not be accepted by the users.
But the li ion battery price has getting down recently.
For example, a 48V 30AH battery pack , LiFePO4, fatory price is $565.

I beg to differ (4) 12V, AGM deep cycles 35Ah, not 30Ah for $105 a piece, on Amazon, I get them direct from my vendor for $85 each per every bulk of 4 or more I buy. You are talking to relative price of factory direct.
So you claim factory price for a 48V, 30Ah LifePO4 is $565
Amazon Price for (4) 12V~48V, 35Ah batteries $420.00
My direct pricing from my vendor for (4) 12V~(48V 35Ah) batteries $340, my price is still within 80% less markup than the cost of the lithiums so it doesn't make sense for me.

All we know lithium ion battery has many advantages compare to other battery, like

big capacity: Lead acids get pretty big too. Can pickup 2V cells with 3000Ah here.
small weight size: Doesn't matter for many off-gridders because the batteries are stationary
fast charging: Also doesn't matter that much, most RE systems don't have enough charging capacity to even reach the limits of lead acid charging
long life cycle use: debateable. Good lead acids are typically rated at 1500 cycles/80% DoD.

Yes, and that's a big one. It's also the only "disadvantage" standing between me and an Audi R8

From my point of view, I only care about cost per year of a battery technology. Don't really care if it's produced by fairy dust or a unicorn on a treadmill as long as the cost per year over 20 years is reasonable.

I gave about $1200 for 54 2 volt AGM cells. That gives me 2 strings of 1040 AH each @ 48 VDC with 6 cells as spares. They work great! Runs the AC all night and everything else I want to run overnight. I did have to supply enough lead as a 'Core Charge'. The storage is about 112 kwh. I am a believer in used with backups, have done it for years. Works out to less than 1 cent on the dollar. There are options available if one is willing to not follow the herd.

Reasons why LiFePO4 (LFP) exceeds that of standard Lithium Ion according to auto manufacturers. (LFP) and (LTO) are better suited for solar based off safety of charge, life span, and cost.Attachment not found.

Now as far as safety is concerned if ruptured, or short circuit, it could be a catastrophic explosion matched to that of capacitors.

The closing arguement to this case study should be reason enough not to invest, until the costs drop substantially and it becomes safer to use, and the (AGING LIFE SPAN) can increase, which isn't at all associated with the amount of charge cycles. Apparently Lithium has a 4 to 5 year life span in comparison to AGM which can last up to 10 years with under a 80% D.O.D. Failure rate (damage growth) of lithiums are undetermined.Attachment not found.

My limited experience is confined to flooded batteries for Solar and AGM for Backup but I would think with the Lithium's the key advantage would be for RV's and Marine applications when space and weight savings would be appreciated. Plus what are the DOD versus cycle life curves for the various Li batteries discussed above. If you could have a battery pack that you could run to 100% DOD all the time, not worry about getting it back up to 100% again asap you could save on Ah's capacity and Wh's of PV?

My limited experience is confined to flooded batteries for Solar and AGM for Backup but I would think with the Lithium's the key advantage would be for RV's and Marine applications when space and weight savings would be appreciated. Plus what are the DOD versus cycle life curves for the various Li batteries discussed above. If you could have a battery pack that you could run to 100% DOD all the time, not worry about getting it back up to 100% again asap you could save on Ah's capacity and Wh's of PV?

Hi, thanks for your comments, yes, compare to other batteries, li ion has many advantages , but you know its really costly at present, just like the solar energy.
I have to sorry about the 100% DOD, our rate is 85%!, the world standard is around 85%.

I beg to differ (4) 12V, AGM deep cycles 35Ah, not 30Ah for $105 a piece, on Amazon, I get them direct from my vendor for $85 each per every bulk of 4 or more I buy. You are talking to relative price of factory direct.
So you claim factory price for a 48V, 30Ah LifePO4 is $565
Amazon Price for (4) 12V~48V, 35Ah batteries $420.00
My direct pricing from my vendor for (4) 12V~(48V 35Ah) batteries $340, my price is still within 80% less markup than the cost of the lithiums so it doesn't make sense for me.

I have to say that is unfair to compare only price but ignor others. this is unfair to the lithium ion battery ,but you should admit lithium ion battery advantages can not be replaced in some feild, like electric bikes and electric vehicles, for example, Tesla motor, they will never take lead acid battery to supply power for their cars.

I have to say that is unfair to compare only price but ignor others. this is unfair to the lithium ion battery ,but you should admit lithium ion battery advantages can not be replaced in some feild, like electric bikes and electric vehicles, for example, Tesla motor, they will never take lead acid battery to supply power for their cars.

No, lithium batteries tend to have a high discharge rate and a low D.O.D, down to 0 without apparently affecting the electrochemical effect of memory. That's it in a nut shell. Lithium's are volatile to charge, and due to the unrefined manufacturing processes because the technology hasn't reached its peak at this present time the life expectancy of most lithiums, and the conditions of stress and the use of its battery is undetermined (to an actual accountability to age, and warranty). TESLA understands this using lithium batteries and even includes free replacement of the battery in a 4 year period, it essentially comes with the cost of a $80,000 car. TESLA expects over 50% of their batteries to become defective within a 4 year period. So when you break it all down, although lithiums apparently have no memory affect, the process of aging, rupturing between cells, or short circuit between the plates of these cells are likely to occur. So essentially people are over paying for a technology that is continually being researched and developed, so it can be better refined as a product.

Then on the other side of the coin is GM and the Volt batteries. A 16.5 kWh battery which has active thermal management and only uses the middle 10.5Kwh of the capacity. GM has yet to see a battery fail for problems with life expectancy. They warranty the battery for 8 years and 100K miles except in California where the warranty is 10 years 150K miles to meet CARB compliance.

No, lithium batteries tend to have a high discharge rate and a low D.O.D, down to 0 without apparently affecting the electrochemical effect of memory.

As long as you define zero as the cutoff of the battery management system (BMS.) A rechargeable Li battery can continue to deliver current well below that voltage, but the chemical reaction goes irreversible. That extra "reserve" is not counted in the capacity of the battery.
You have a similar cutoff point effect in the definition of the capacity of a lead acid battery, but drawing it down below the cutoff voltage for capacity measurement is not going to have as catastrophic an effect on the FLA battery. NiCd, NiMH and NiFe are even more resistant to damage from over-discharge.

So that's 85% DOD of sticker capacity for Li? If the reliability and longevity issues, you guys talk about, are taken care of then that's more truly useable Ah than any other battery. You could design an offgrid system with significanly higher DOD and thus would need an even smaller battery pack than otherwise already afforded by the higher energy density of Lithium batteries? I suppose once the technology really gets refined things will get interesting. Will PbC 3-4 gen FLA's be upon us by then? I heard about this company on seekingalpha.comhttp://www.axionpower.com/Utility_Grid_Connected_Powerhttp://www.axionpower.com/Technology
Sounds promising while we wait for our friends in China to get those Lithiums running just like we need?

As long as you define zero as the cutoff of the battery management system (BMS.) A rechargeable Li battery can continue to deliver current well below that voltage, but the chemical reaction goes irreversible. That extra "reserve" is not counted in the capacity of the battery.
You have a similar cutoff point effect in the definition of the capacity of a lead acid battery, but drawing it down below the cutoff voltage for capacity measurement is not going to have as catastrophic an effect on the FLA battery. NiCd, NiMH and NiFe are even more resistant to damage from over-discharge.

It's ironic that you say this, only because on a much smaller level of mAh. I work in the construction industry dealing with porter cable and Dewalt 18volt power tools. There is a point in which the tools will not operate. So I test the batteries with my meter which indicate a reckonizable voltage at 16.8 avg between both Dewalt and Porter Cable. However ampers are under .045 and tools won't operate. Now this is based on an average because I can't write all day on the differences between Dewalt and Porter Cable. However based on that average Porter Cable has a much lower amperage at (.0225~.0229). I also have to charge Porter Cables more frequently than dewalts. So now I may figure why Dewalt is "possibly" better. I replace porter cable lithiums at least every 6 to 8 months, while I replace Dewalts every 16 to 20months. Now neither claim what type of ION chemistry is used for their batteries. That's a huge factor, but I will say that either battery are being discharged as low as 98.5% of capacity~1.5%DOD. In the world of power tools there is no such thing as BMS, but I will say for sure no matter the "type" of lithium chemistry used for batteries they all come down to the same price for aging. The Porter Cable Lithium Ions are $80.00, while a Dewalt Lithium costs around $160. The "cost" no matter the lithium chemistry type is all relative to an average.
FYI Porter Cable chargers are not sophisticated and charge both Ni-Cad and Li-Ion and are interchangeable for tools, unlike Dewalt.

In the world of power tools there is no such thing as BMS, but I will say for sure no matter the "type" of lithium chemistry used for batteries they all come down to the same price for aging.

I really think that if you open up the lithium battery pack, you will find at least a minimum level of electronic components there. You need some form of balancing of the series string, which can be a simple as passive diodes and resistors. And either the battery pack itself or the tool needs to have a voltage cutoff to protect that Li battery. That feature is not used or needed when an Li battery is fitted, so it is more likely to be in the battery rather than in the tool. (Unless the tool has a way of telling what kind of battery has been plugged in, of course.)

Your observation that the available current at cutoff is very low also supports that the low voltage cutoff is located inside the battery pack. A current of 45ma is not likely to harm the battery, if only because the tool will not be allowed to keep drawing that current, since it is not working. :-)

I really think that if you open up the lithium battery pack, you will find at least a minimum level of electronic components there. You need some form of balancing of the series string, which can be a simple as passive diodes and resistors. And either the battery pack itself or the tool needs to have a voltage cutoff to protect that Li battery. That feature is not used or needed when an Li battery is fitted, so it is more likely to be in the battery rather than in the tool. (Unless the tool has a way of telling what kind of battery has been plugged in, of course.)

Your observation that the available current at cutoff is very low also supports that the low voltage cutoff is located inside the battery pack. A current of 45ma is not likely to harm the battery, if only because the tool will not be allowed to keep drawing that current, since it is not working. :-)

I don't think Porter Cable uses any type of BMS to their batteries. The Batteries get hot. I mean they get really, really hot, just the same as their Ni-Cad. All I know with Porter Cable in the same manner that the NI-Cad chargers work, there is temperature resistance that will not allow the batteries to accept the charge if the batteries are to hot. Dewalts do not have as many issues with getting hot like the porter cables. The charger light rapidly blinks indicating no charge, until the batteries have met a stable temperature, then the charge cycle can begin. It actually becomes very annoying because I could have 5 porter cable chargers going simultaneously yet nothing will charge until the batteries will cool. This would be interesting to find out whats really inside the lithiums, I have a semi dead lithium that works for about 5 minutes and then cuts out so I'm pretty sure it has alot of cell damage. I wouldn't mind opening it up to see if there is some sort of resistor that works as a choke point, but I suspect with Porter Cable and Dewalt that when I open the cases I will just see a series string of 3.7V rechargeable batteries just as Porter Cable has done with their 1.2V Ni-Cad batteries.

Correction it's .045A we are dealing with mAh not Ah, at .45A the equipment would still be able to operate. I myself get confused with the decimal point placement. The LX batteries are 1.3Ah(1300 mAh), then there is the EX which is 2.6Ah (2600mAh)

Here's a pick of the multi chemistry charger. There is nothing sophisticated about it.Attachment not found.

I wouldn't mind opening it up to see if there is some sort of resistor that works as a choke point, but I suspect with Porter Cable and Dewalt that when I open the cases I will just see a series string of 3.7V rechargeable batteries just as Porter Cable has done with their 1.2V Ni-Cad batteries.

Correction it's .045A we are dealing with mAh not Ah, at .45A the equipment would still be able to operate. I myself get confused with the decimal point placement. The LX batteries are 1.3Ah(1300 mAh), then there is the EX which is 2.6Ah (2600mAh)

Here's a pick of the multi chemistry charger. There is nothing sophisticated about it.

1. I think that you will find some sort of control electronics inside. If nothing else, so called "protection" circuitry is often incorporated at the terminals and under the outer plastic cover of the cells themselves.

2. By my calculations, .045A is equal to 45ma. You will not find a temperature-sensitive resistor or simple series resistor used to limit current, since it does not provide a sharp enough cut off. There may be a thermistor which is used as a sensor in an active circuit though.

3. There is nothing sophisticated on the outside, but that is because they do not want to confuse the user. Have you looked inside? A small microprocessor can put a lot of smarts into a simple looking circuit.

What I believe is going on is due to the internal resistance of the lithium from high discharge it won't allow the battery or tools to operate past that point of reaching its "thermal capacity" after that point everything internally begins to break down. When the batteries are drained they are really hot, so to some degree I believe its more thermal break down that begins to occur that limits it from reaching a point of 0 D.O.D. Not anything to do with BMS

Any way I will crack open one of the chargers, one of the Ni-Cads, and one of the lithiums so we can get a better look at what intenally is going on.

I passed on buying Lithium batteries for my power tools because A). they'd already had a recall due to them burning up and . both the batteries and the required different charger cost a bloody fortune compared to the NiCad version.

Lithium is still not competitive with Lead-acid for stationary RE use.

What I believe is going on is due to the internal resistance of the lithium from high discharge it won't allow the battery or tools to operate past that point of reaching its "thermal capacity" after that point everything internally begins to break down. When the batteries are drained they are really hot, so to some degree I believe its more thermal break down that begins to occur that limits it from reaching a point of 0 D.O.D. Not anything to do with BMS

Any way I will crack open one of the chargers, one of the Ni-Cads, and one of the lithiums so we can get a better look at what intenally is going on.

I'll get on it tomorrow. We will see what is more validating.

I appreciate your efforts!
One thing to keep in mind is that the battery gets very hot during discharge mainly when you are using the tool continuously. There is definitely something that stops the tool when the battery gets too hot, even if it is not yet fully discharged.
My experience, with mainly intermittent use, is that if I do not recharge the battery after each use I will eventually get to the point where the tool stops dead even though the battery is still cold. YMMV.

No, for my money, in off grid power systems, Flooded Lead Acid batteries are miraculous. This 150+ year old technology works amazingly well in storing energy, and enduring thousands of cycles over periods from 7 - 20 years, with little fuss.

Seems to me, that there will always be something on the horizon to wait for, and those who are waiters, may never have much of a system, as there is always more waiting to be done, IMHO.

I passed on buying Lithium batteries for my power tools because A). they'd already had a recall due to them burning up and . both the batteries and the required different charger cost a bloody fortune compared to the NiCad version.

Lithium is still not competitive with Lead-acid for stationary RE use.

Had been looking at B&D Lithium cordless drills for a while after getting disgusted with the short life of some brand name NiCads, and fact that the ones I had at least, (5 different brands) tended to be all but dead when left unused for a month or less, even when fully charged when put away. First one I had was a no name/store brand (CTC) and it lasted and worked well for about 10 years in normal household / hobby use. The next two were high end, Makita, and I was EXTREMELY disappointed in their short battery life. All came with dual batteries, and in both cases, the expensive Makitas batteries failed in just over a year. Extremely disgusted after having the no-name lasting so long. And yes, they were treated the same or better than the original no-name. Seems I was paying for the name.
So when Wal"*Mart had a good price on B&D 12 volt Lithium, decided to give it a try. VERY pleased with the overall performance for such a little drill. 2 days ago CTC had the 20 volt version at an extremely good price, so grabbed one. Again, EXTREMELY pleased with both the power. I would say it's twice the drill as the B&D 18 volt NiCad version. Did some heavy drilling yesterday and unlike the NiCad versions, it held full power throughout the length of the drilling. Beyond that, it's claimed the fully charged battery holds it's power for well over a year, an awesome +.
All that aside, I am indeed concerned about the safety of the batteries and am getting a metal box with metal cover to store them in when not in use, and I do generally put the battery and charger in a deep metal pot if I leave the house while they're on charge.
BTW, the chargers are both Energy Star rated and stay cool, unlike the NiCad chargers which continue to suck power and stay warm even after battery is charged. Beyond that, the LiIon charger won't charge if ambient is below 40F, and the 20 volt unit takes (according to the manual) 5 to 8 hours to charge. PLUS there is this statement: "To maximize the life of the battery pack it is designed to shut off abruptly when the charge is depleted." It's also recommended to recharge after every use, and not to run the battery down if it can be avoided. Quite different than almost needing to really run down the NiCads between charges.
Now to that metal box. Perhaps a small fire rated safe would do the trick. I really don't want to wait until it's too late.