kaiadam you talk about overall healing by a pala or monk, im just talking about BH. Yes paladin selfheal and other tank heal with shield on Tank while not tanken or waiting for stacks to drop is really high, so is monk due to the fact they have absorbs, main problem with paladins if they have to many stuff imo and not do anything. Divine shield maybe a bit RNG too, but the rest for free like you said before. Im our RL and i wanted a paladin or monk( mainly pala due to beeing 10m and loot pov) i know how strong they both are, dont know that much about monks like i know about pala.

just to clarify my point on NV. Before 5.2 the NV heal procced of the Thrash DOT, which it shouldnt have making it very strong on hc fights with adds last tier, cant find the old logs, but the heal was insane. and it would heal the druid aswell. plus each dot tick could heal another target, in 10m 4th boss hc in HoF you could use NV with 1 thrash and i would have almost alone healed the aoe from him. p2 shekzeer. they took that part away casue the thrash dot normally doenst count as singletarget dmg. NV still got buffed and i still use it sometimes. Still i think BH is and was better than NV due to the fact NV is a cd BH not. My favourite in 25m would be that healwave you cast as a monk going straight into the melees, maybe not best suited for tanking if they didnt change any on the cant dodge block parry while casting stuff.

25m druids suck yes they need more cooldowns from healers or the other tanks to survive something that pala monk can easily take care of by themselves

in 10m i think druids are fine, still monks and paladins are better, but then its druid, on par with warrior(skullbanner still better dmg wise). not a big fan of DKs in 10m so far, but still they all do fine.

But the main problem is that our mastery is armour and why is there a ability thats ignores armour while still beeing physical dmg. The whole druid is very strong meleeattacks (and procs from meleesattacks), its like garajai hc for dks, have a friend that play 2 DKs they really hated that boss.

Oh almost forgott i didnt mean the other classes dont have magic cooldowns. Just wanted to point out all tank classes physical dmg mitigation ability that cost rage HP or whatever doenst help with magic dmg.

Little late in responding, real life trumps forum posting every day of the week for me.

There seems to be a little contention concerning Ra-Den on 25man and Guardians. While some numbers are being floated around, suppose we can't get a definitive answer until a Guardian does it (which shouldn't be too long on my end, I'll try to remember this post when I do). Be that as it may, from the numbers I have seen, it'd still be pretty feasible for a Guardian to tank, especially with the Vengeance levels that one would obtain from that encounter. Even with my gear not even close to "BiS" yet, I'm fairly close to the EH needed to take 2 hits comfortably in a row, assuming Arielle's numbers are correct. Also, using those numbers, T&C would be a pretty powerful even at half that strength, assuming one has the RPS to sustain it's use... but reaching that encounter would likely meet that wicket, so it's likely a non-issue.

Sorry, kaiadam, I watched the video from your pally tank's perspective since he had all his numbers up... and for some reason I couldn't get yours to run properly. While we may be nit-picking on Guardians potentially getting 2-shot with not enough EH, you forgot to mention that even your prot paladin was still getting 2-shot (the size of the unmitigated hit on him was pretty massive)... seems like just the nature of the fight, honestly. Be that as it may, the likely strength of a Guardian on that fight will be having a massive EH to deal with some hits getting through. However, I don't want to dwell on this too long since I haven't tanked him yet personally, but your pally's kill video I saw only bolstered my opinion on a Guardian being reasonably able to tank it.

Enough of that, onto other topics of interest! I've had a chance to peruse through some of the idea people have been tossing about for Guardians, and they all seem to revolve around a guaranteed method of mitigating or absorbing damage. While some may be better than others, if we start getting into situations where our EH cannot save us, Guardians will need a guaranteed method of defense that's effective. My only concern would be that Blizz would reduce the efficacy of our current toolbox to allow such a change, and we may or may not like how it is implemented.

If my opinion matters on the subject, I think our mastery is the prime candidate for adjustment, especially since what mastery currently yields is pretty static and mostly ignored when making gear decisions. Don't get me wrong, it's pretty strong in the grand scheme of things, but a bump in our armor gains from going into Bear Form could accomplish the same thing... heck, Blizz could keep the armor gains idea from mastery and just add onto what mastery gives a Guardian druid (we've already had quite a few ideas suggested, take your pick).

There are other areas where they could adjust our survival for the greater good of Guardians. The one I swore they might make (until T&C came out) was either adding a mechanic to allow FR to be an absorb instead of a heal, whether it be from a glyph (who really uses glyph of FR as is anyways?) or some activated mechanic/ability. T&C came pretty close to what I was guessing, but, as we've been suggesting, the nature of the proc is still random albeit decently high... the likely reason to not go the route I was thinking is mostly prot warriors and the homogenization battle. However, I still claim Guardians had absorbs first, so warriors should get in line!

Our main problem is our mastery which is so bad, paladin mastery is just crazy giving them three things at once. More dmgreduction more heal more blockchance. Monks mastery is really strong too.

Prot Paladin mastery adds block, and only more dmg reduction while SoTR is up, no extra healing. Prot pallies don't stack mastery, they stack haste for the extra healing, extra uptime on SoTR through faster Holy Power generation, and extra dps.

And most guardian druids don't stack mastery. They stack crit for normals, and for heroic mode fights that ignore armor, imo they should gem stam and while maintaining reforges into crit. This would make them viable to tank the fights but obviously, does not scale nicely with the dps output that monks/paladin tanks can due to their haste (and to a certain extent for BrM, crit) stacking.

There are other areas where they could adjust our survival for the greater good of Guardians. The one I swore they might make (until T&C came out) was either adding a mechanic to allow FR to be an absorb instead of a heal, whether it be from a glyph (who really uses glyph of FR as is anyways?) or some activated mechanic/ability. T&C came pretty close to what I was guessing, but, as we've been suggesting, the nature of the proc is still random albeit decently high... the likely reason to not go the route I was thinking is mostly prot warriors and the homogenization battle. However, I still claim Guardians had absorbs first, so warriors should get in line!

I believe Guardians did have the first absorb. Personally I wish only tanks had absorbs and not healers but that's another topic. I'm not sure what Blizzard was going for with Tooth & Claw, but it doesn't seem to pass the test as a defensive CD. From these posts it sounds like progression Guardians really need a more reliable CD. I'm not sure how it has worked for Guardians but for most specs if you are taking the problem to Blizzard you just need to present the problem and the evidence. They tend to ignore any solutions that are presented and prefer to come up with their own solution.

Important to note that this is only if you somehow manage to generate and spend 45 HP in 30 seconds - assuming you start with 5 - which I don't think is actually possible even during Lust/Hero.

Doable with HA and a reasonable amount of haste outside of lust/hero, doable with HA and Lust/Hero with room to spare. (With 20% haste (top geared tanks can have closer to 30%+) you're looking at between 0.45 and 0.5 HP/sec if I did my math right, HA triples that to about the required 1.5 HP/second, lust puts you at 1.95 HP/second. All these are ignoring 4pc.

Doable with HA and a reasonable amount of haste outside of lust/hero, doable with HA and Lust/Hero with room to spare. (With 20% haste (top geared tanks can have closer to 30%+) you're looking at between 0.45 and 0.5 HP/sec if I did my math right, HA triples that to about the required 1.5 HP/second, lust puts you at 1.95 HP/second. All these are ignoring 4pc.

It's not consistent though. Sure if you burn a cooldown it's possible. That's like saying I have unlimited Rage for 30 seconds during Incarnation, and therefore basically can't die.

Prot Paladin mastery adds block, and only more dmg reduction while SoTR is up, no extra healing. Prot pallies don't stack mastery, they stack haste for the extra healing, extra uptime on SoTR through faster Holy Power generation, and extra dps.

And most guardian druids don't stack mastery. They stack crit for normals, and for heroic mode fights that ignore armor, imo they should gem stam and while maintaining reforges into crit. This would make them viable to tank the fights but obviously, does not scale nicely with the dps output that monks/paladin tanks can due to their haste (and to a certain extent for BrM, crit) stacking.

Prot paladin mastery adds block, physical dmg reduction to SotR and the same % amount to the buff you get everytime you use SotR that increases your healing by X % stacks up to 5 times if used on yourself. Most paladin tanks that raid heroic have about 14-17% unbuffed. Thats almost a SI from a druid. And it is not ignored by some abilitites, unlike druids where some ignore armour, our 2t15 is like a paladins extra heal part.
Thats the problem druid mastery is good, but since some abilities ignore armour, the stat is totally worthless. Unlike pala, monk, DK masteries. Its not about stacking it, i have about 22% mastery right now, on jikun we tank with a paladin, who can use SotR every rake, which is the same if a druid has his SI up everytime rake hits. WE take less stacks of the dot due to high dodge still it doens matter cause you will never be able to take more than 4 stacks without external cooldown. Our paladin has no problem with them. Ok you will almost never need to tank more than 3, but still 3 with bad rng on dotstacks and you might even die there

Prot paladin mastery adds block, physical dmg reduction to SotR and the same % amount to the buff you get everytime you use SotR that increases your healing by X % stacks up to 5 times if used on yourself. Most paladin tanks that raid heroic have about 14-17% unbuffed. Thats almost a SI from a druid. And it is not ignored by some abilitites, unlike druids where some ignore armour, our 2t15 is like a paladins extra heal part.
Thats the problem druid mastery is good, but since some abilities ignore armour, the stat is totally worthless. Unlike pala, monk, DK masteries. Its not about stacking it, i have about 22% mastery right now, on jikun we tank with a paladin, who can use SotR every rake, which is the same if a druid has his SI up everytime rake hits. WE take less stacks of the dot due to high dodge still it doens matter cause you will never be able to take more than 4 stacks without external cooldown. Our paladin has no problem with them. Ok you will almost never need to tank more than 3, but still 3 with bad rng on dotstacks and you might even die there

I'm glad I read this, I was wondering if I was doing something wrong on that fight. I just recently joined my guild and came in on Jikun and on the first several attempts, we'd get him down to between 30-20% health left and my second rake would kill me every time. Yet our other tank, a Paladin, seemed to have no problem. Ended up with the healers saving their CD's for me and we eventually got him down without me dying every attempt. Was quite embarassing on my part for my first time raiding with them.

Prot paladin mastery adds block, physical dmg reduction to SotR and the same % amount to the buff you get everytime you use SotR that increases your healing by X % stacks up to 5 times if used on yourself. Most paladin tanks that raid heroic have about 14-17% unbuffed. Thats almost a SI from a druid. And it is not ignored by some abilitites, unlike druids where some ignore armour, our 2t15 is like a paladins extra heal part.
Thats the problem druid mastery is good, but since some abilities ignore armour, the stat is totally worthless. Unlike pala, monk, DK masteries. Its not about stacking it, i have about 22% mastery right now, on jikun we tank with a paladin, who can use SotR every rake, which is the same if a druid has his SI up everytime rake hits. WE take less stacks of the dot due to high dodge still it doens matter cause you will never be able to take more than 4 stacks without external cooldown. Our paladin has no problem with them. Ok you will almost never need to tank more than 3, but still 3 with bad rng on dotstacks and you might even die there

You never need to take more than 2, and they're mitigated by armor so the difference between bears and pallies isn't *that* extreme. At worst, you'll take slightly more burst from the rake and need CDs for them earlier, but at 2 stacks and at the pace that they come, there's no difficulty having CDs ready once you've seen the fight. Pallies are going to have more stacks of the DoT, and that stuff can HURT (hits the pally in my hunter's guild harder than the rake sometimes).

I mean, if you want to complain on that fight, go look at our DK going an entire 2 rakes tanking the boss and absorbing EVERYTHING (lol, wut's infected talons?). Can't complain too much though, sure he needs to soak pools to require healing in the first place, but it means I never have to do it .

While I want to quote some of the Ji-kun Talon Rake comments, I'm not quire sure what I actually want to quote!

Regardless, if a Guardian is having an issue with the Talon Rake, it's either an effective health (EH) issue or a cooldown usage issue. First job of a tank is to live, plain and simple, and by increasing one's EH via things like stamina and armor/mastery should take priority if with any combination of cooldowns you cannot consistently live. Yes, rage generation is important, but it serves no purpose if you cannot survive burst damage... a dead bear generates no rage, unless you consider the player behind the bear potentially raging.

The size of Ji-kun's Talon Rake is subjective, depending on raid size and difficulty. From a 25man heroic perspective, as a Guardian I can always take up to 3 Talon Rakes safely (we 2-tank the fight, sometimes DPSers are slower than we like), and in emergencies I've been able to take up to 4 w/o an external CD. My bear doesn't have a shield attached to the fur lining, I just recognized that in order for me to be self-sufficient with respect to Talon Rakes, I needed to increase my HP/armor to where I could take bigger hits. This trickles down into being less reliant or completely independent of external CDs, which I'm certain healers don't mind at all.

I'll give an example of what I can do by increasing my EH on that fight: first Talon Rake I won't use anything (if I'm mostly topped off) or Symbiosis: Bone Armor, second Talon Rake I can use Survival Instincts (glyphed on this fight), third Talon Rake I can use Barkskin + Might of Ursoc. I did mention that I can potentially take a 4th in emergencies w/o external CDs, and it's all about the legendary tanking meta or how high my health is on the first two Talon Rakes. If the legendary tanking meta is up during any of the first 3 Talon Rakes, I won't use that cooldown I normally would since my EH is high enough that the meta proc alone is enough for me to live through two Talon Rakes (albeit not as comfortably as I'd want, but an instant FR after the hit will heal up the huge hit). In most situations, I'll never have to take more than 2 Talon Rakes, and I wouldn't really need all this EH to survive only two easily, gearing completely for RPS... however, I gear for independent survivability, since I like to be safe rather than sorry.

Now I'm not expecting everyone to be able to execute Talon Rake survival as I do, however I'm just giving you insight as to how people can use the tools that they do have to their best ability to perform feats that most people would say is silly. Heck, I didn't think I could survive 4 Talon Rakes in a row until I tried, but the emergency came up and I made it happen. If I didn't have the foresight to increase my EH as high as I did, I definitely wouldn't have survived 4 Talon Rakes (and comfortably surviving a 3rd would likely be semi-tricky since I'd be forced to use more powerful CD's early).

I suppose the message I'm trying to convey is that Guardians may have to make a gearing choice between maximizing RPS and maximizing EH for an encounter. There is no one single way of gearing that fits every Guardian perfectly or every encounter perfectly, it's up to the individual player to find what works.

Since we're back to the Ji'Kun topic, for 10HC I have taken 4 TR with no problems really with no extra Stamina than my gear (pure crit/hit/exp gems/enchants). First two with no CD, though ensuring T&C was up, 3rd with a barkskin and 4th with SI. Pretty sure I had a PW:S for the 2nd and FR right afterwards, for clarification.

Admittedly Guardians fair far worse in 25man (especially HC) but I still feel strong raiding 10s and don't feel like I hold the back in any sense, at all.

So this week we finally got our setup the way we wanted it to be and we did some good progression on jikun and to say this in 10m talon rake isnt really a problem you could easily take 3-4 without external maybe not everytime you tank but still we had one time where i had to take 4 stacks due to our palatank messing up with taunting. I just used full rps build but changed bracers and leg enchant to Stamina, and it wasn really a problem, we didnt even have our discpriest on the main plattform. The first attempts i would say yes it would have been better if i had full EH gear, to learn, but i cant think it is different in 25m, but i doubt you would ever need to tank more than 3 ever on jikun except you fuck up after a the pushback or taunt to earlier to late.

I know this is a bit rng, but still sometime i tanked till i had 3 stacks and only got like 2-3 stacks of the dot. while our paladin, takes alot less dmg from rake but mostly dies to the dot, having a hig dot tick plus third or fourth stack of rake, is far more dangerous than a druid taking more dmg from rake. paladin can get rid of dot stack i know, he didnt have it rdy than.

Having to take more stacks of rake than 3 should only happen if someone fucks up. maybe monks can take up to 6-7 stacks or paladins too, but if they have to its cause the other tank died or fucked up big time.

Like i said befor druids are fine especially in 10m, and they are good in 25m maybe a bit behind the top 2. I still think going for hardcore raiding where setup is everything and you only want the best classes you would almost never take a druid in 25m.

Everything kaiadam writes may be right, but alot of druids just say: "wow he is in a top10 guild and says druids are bad, monks are better. Now i know why i die so often in my raid. its not my fault, its all RNG with dodge." when you look at their logs and they ahve 20% uptime on SD, used T&C once, stuff like that. I personally never saw a good monk tank so far, i raided with some, they are very good but alot of them cant play them but thats another story. that doesnt make the class bad.

Druids are fine, a small change that could make us a bit better against stuff like talon rake (in 25m it hits harder, and its not the only ability of that kind, where druids are a bit behind) still with good Cooldown usage and playing the boss correctly druids can tank every boss on heroic 10m and i quess 25m too. A tank dying on an heroic attempt and a monk beeing able to take 5-7 stacks on jikun and getting the kill is awesome. If you dont have a monk pull the boss again, the other tanks survived this time and you kill it then.