In this section

Wednesday, March 21.

The House proceeded to the hearing of the cause of Newark,
touching the sending of Burgesses to serve in Parliament; and
Counsel being called in, Mr Savile's Petition was read, and the
Counsel heard.

[Debate.]

Serjeant Crooke.] During Session of Parliament, and
the Parliament sitting, 'tis most plain that Letters Patent, for creating Boroughs power to send Members
to represent them in Parliament, have been granted;
and most of the Members of the House serve for Boroughs, as much by Creation by Charter, as Prescription, and Letters Patent may restrain the manner of
Election. If that be granted, that the interest is
wholly in the King, he may create pro bono publico,
by "ordinamus in the Charter, without "concedimus,"
and Burgesses are thought a benefit to the Nation—In
the multitude of Counsellors there is safety. 'Tis objected
"That in this Charter they have no voices in the Election of Burgesses, who, nevertheless, pay wages to
them for their service in Parliament." In all Charters,
where the Election is restrained to the Mayor and Common Council, yet all the body of that Corporation pay
wages tho' they have no Votes in Election—Being better for Parliament-men, when to the whole body, if the
case will bear it—The first Letters Patent were "to the
generality"—Where the Charter and words of the
Grant will possibly bear it. The King has power to
do it to the Mayor and Council. He argues not the
convenience or inconvenience of it, but must take it
as it is. Before the case of Duncannon in Ireland,
Lord Hobart was of opinion, that where the Grant
was "et burgenses," it was restrained—A Charter is a
flower of the Crown, and the King's undoubted right,
and if restrained to the Mayor and Council, time out
of mind, and by prescription, it supposes a Grant of
such a power. The next objection is, "Granting this
Charter during Session of Parliament." As for the inconvenience of that, he submits it, the House increased
in number by new Boroughs, and revival of old—
You have a great trust, and how many may be brought
in by new Letters Patent? Law of Parliament is
Paucis nota, multis ignota, ab omnibus quærenda. 'Tis
Law by itself. If this of granting Charters has been
done, who can dispute the King's right in doing it?
He moves for a Committee to enquire into the King's
right, &c. and the inconvenience of granting these
Charters, sedente Parliamento.

Sir Thomas Meres.] The Question is, "Whether the
King can make a Borough by Patent, to send Members, &c. the Parliament sitting;" and, if he can,
"Whether this Patent will be made a good Patent"
—They, it seems, have agreed particulars without
doors, but here, in our judgment, all England is concerned. Formerly it was clear, but now it is not clear,
as the Serjeant says. He would only go to that point,
whether durante Parliamento, the King can grant such
a Charter? Had it ever been done, you would have
seen the use and practice of it. No man can show
such a Patent overthrown, because it cannot be showed
that there was ever such a Patent granted. He would,
rather than debate the Charter, come to quiet the matter, as Chester and Liverpool, who had that Privilege
by Act of Parliament.

Mr Powle.] If he rightly observes the case, it branches itself into many Questions— Whether it be a
good Patent? He observes that the Counsel, whom
you have heard at the Bar, came hither to pursue the
interest of their Clients, not the interest of the Public, and it looks to him like a private bargain—And
they omit the great points of the Charter, and insist
on that of their Clients only. If the power be indefinite, in the Crown, what great inconveniences might
follow! We may put the case, that the King has a
mind to alter Religion, without altering the constitution of this House. Whether Boroughs sending fifty
Papists, might not be predominant. Unless it be a
clear Right, in point of inconvenience it is not to be
admitted. Out of compassion to himself, he moves
that the Long Robe would speak to it—There are several Precedents. 'Tis a rule of Law that the King
cannot impose a Charge upon a Borough: Now whether this be in the nature of a Charge, or whether
this be in the nature of a liberty or franchise, the King
cannot grant it. That it is a Charge, in its own nature, is visible—The Corporation is charged in point
of Wages—A great burden to bear themselves, whereas, otherwise, they should bear but a proportion with
the Country. Another thing, but somewhat obsolete.
11 H. IV. Fitzherbert 15 No. 9—Handford, ChiefJustice—all Boroughs paid tenths—Those besides fifteenths. Now this is disused. But the people have
Privileges; but of its own nature it is a Charge—Corruptions and abuses do not alter the nature of the
Law. R. II. chap. 4, latter end—Power by Sheriffs
Writs—All Boroughs, bound, of old time, to come
to Parliament—Which shows that it is a service. Another Precedent of a pretty rare nature—Parliament
Roll. 42 Ed. III. Membran. 8. Torrington in Devon.
"That to send Burgesses, &c. onerari non debeant."
There is an Onus, and a discharge 1 Char. I. Prynne's
Register of Writs, fol. 1181. 1 March 1628. Weobly
and Milbourn Port had discontinued, a long time, sending Burgesses to Parliament. It was Resolved, That it
was a service, and so not lost by disuse; which a
Franchife might—Now, Burgesses in this House—
18 K. James, the case of Pomfret, and 21 of King
James, the case of Weobly—He will grant that many sit
here by Charter, but would enquire whether by reviver, and not new creation since the 18th of K. James.
Never any created but this—Determined—And no
more Charters than granted—Whether for the interest
of the Kingdom to have more granted, leaves that to
consideration. 20 H. VI. Plymouth sent Burgesses first
—And then after that sent none till 27 H. 8. chap. 25.
Calais was a Borough, and sent anciently to Parliament.
The practice has been never to alter the constitution
of this House, but by Act of Parliament. 7 E. 6, the
Charter was granted for Maidstone. It was then resolved to be referred to Serjeant Morgan, to see whether
the King might grant a Charter for Burgesses of Parliament, and in the mean time, the Burgesses were to
forbear to sit. In Queen Eliz. several Boroughs—
But since the 18th of K. James, resolution of Parliament
put a stop to them. But he thinks an incurable flaw in
this Charter, its being without consent and knowledge—
The Election is confined to a few of the town, and all to
bear the charge of the Burgesses. Qui sentit commodum, sentire debet &c onus. This so far vitiates the Charter, that you may throw it out without any farther
Question.

Mr Waller.] The Borough of Bewdley was erected
in King James's time: Mr Selden grumbled at it. The
Universities, in his time, sent Burgesses, by K. James's
Grant, who was a Mæcenas to all learning. The
townsmen had Burgesses before, the scholars afterwards
by this Grant. To question this power of the King
here, is to question all our sitting here; but he would not
have the King put any imposition—A great many more
Boroughs were put out when he was here—A great
many Borough-towns, formerly of good credit, grew
poor, and were dismissed their attendance here. Cornwall had more than Yorkshire, because of the House
of Lancaster. 'Tis said, "There is not time to do it,
the Parliament sitting." He never heard before that
the Parliament sitting could hinder the Prerogative.
The King has had this Parliament sixteen years. He
knows not how the Prerogative has been suspended
sixteen years. A multitude here is our help—Our desire is to proportion things equally—'Tis a great advantage to us that these things are done, when we are
sitting, that the thing may be thoroughly enquired into. Abusus juris non tollit jus. Patents have been
granted for the few Electors, and sometimes for the
many, and we have judged it the same way. You
have a Bill to regulate Elections, but as for this present
Charter, 'tis de jure, and then speak right—There is
an injustice, a canker, will eat out all. Therefore
would have the power of granting justified.

Serjeant Maynard.] The Question is, Whether the
King has power to grant a Patent for Burgesses, &c.
If the King at any time may do it, he knows no difference in the time, the Parliament sitting or not sitting—The King has power—Never knew it confuted,
but that the King may make Corporations, and grant
them Privileges of sending Burgesses, &c. But that is
not the point. He finds persons elected, and the incorporated complain of it. He will declare his duty
to his King and Country—He will declare how the
Law is. The case is stated by Powle, Whether this
Grant be a franchise or a burden. It is the King's
power to incorporate, and in the King's power likewise to limit the Privileges—And all this, under favour, with consent of the place. Anciently, Taxes
were by hydes of land, afterwards by subsidies. The
Boroughs paid Taxes by tenths, the Counties by fifteenths. The Boroughs a third part more than the
Counties—What consequences, if not consent—Whether a burden, or no, they must pay a third more
than the County, otherwise ought to pay. If then
here be no Petition from the Borough, there is no
Question of it, and against 100 years practice—Two
inconveniences will follow, if they have a Charter, &c.
imposed without consent: First, They will be put to
greater charges than the Law will allow of; and, secondly, They will have no consent to what is done in
Parliament. But now, if the Charter be for a Corporation, the King may grant it as large as he pleases,
and the King is not bound to little or great numbers;
he may grant it to eight, twelve, or twenty, if he
pleases—They give no man implicit or explicit consent
to it. This Question is not of Prerogative. It is out
of the Question, whether the King may do it, or not—
Chester, Calais, and Wales come not to this purpose—It is
no consequence, because they were empowered by Act of
Parliament to send Burgesses, that the King cannot do
it without. But this case is of a Corporation drawn
into another way of Government, without their own
consent. When they accept it, they agree to it, but
upon execution of it, they dislike it; and from thence
is the Question, whether it be good, or no. Whether
inconvenient or convenient, is not the Question, if the
King have right. But we may petition that the number may not be increased.

Mr Sacheverell.] Whether this be a good Patent,
and whether by this Charter the King may do it, is
the Question—You cannot resolve till you know whether Gentlemen concerned in the Country Towns, Cotlington, Bladerton, and Winthorp, are not barely drawn
into Wages for Burgesses, and but part of the Corporation have the benefit of the Charter, and all are subject to the Jurisdiction of the Corporation, and Copyholders summoned to the Corporation Court. He
thinks it not a good Patent, because it creates new services, which cannot be granted. The Question is,
Whether the King can grant such a Charter. As for
markets and fairs, and tolls in all Law-Books, Nisi sit ad
aliquod damnum, is a Clause in the Grant. Therefore he
tenders the Petition of the three towns, Newark being
gone off.

Mr Secretary Williamson.] He will trouble you but
with a few words. The King's power of granting
Charters, with Clause of sending Burgesses to Parliament, upon the Debate wears off; for it would shake
many Boroughs in England. All Boroughs by prescription had their first commencement from the Crown,
by Letters Patent, or Charter. He hears it said,
"This is not to be granted by Patent, because it is a
charge upon the people for Wages." But though
there be Wages, yet looking to the division of their
Taxes, and the service in Parliament, is for their good,
and will bear the name of a Franchise. As to the
granting this Patent in Parliament time, 'tis said, there
may be surprize. If the King have power, why, in
Session of Parliament must it be suspended? What
reasonable Law can be urged, why not in Session of
Parliament, as well as in interval of Parliament?
The King's Prerogative is the same, and he knows
not, he confesses, the reason. The same objection may
be made in the House of Lords, as to the calling the
Boroughs by Writ. Bewdley was created a Borough,
and had a Patent for sending Burgesses, the Parliament sitting. There is no Precedent against it in Common or Statute Law, for it is backed by Precedents.
The Vills that are incorporated require some consideration, but if you meddle only with the Members that
are to sit for the Corporation, their Right cannot be
barred. He finds a complaint of this Corporation before these Vills mentioned—In Lord Dorset's case, an
independent Clause in a Grant may be repealed, and
the Patent yet stand good—Of a charitable use—The
greater part of the Grantees may void it by Law,
and not be bound—But all this while this destroys not
the Corporation—Why should the House concern
themselves in particular mens complaint? Serjeant
Maynard agreed it to be the King's Prerogative, and
agreed during Parliament; and if the Villages are not
bound by what you do, why should they hinder the Election? That being not the Question before you,
the Vills may defend their right at Law, and the Parliament-men stand good.

Sir Thomas Meres.] The majority of the inhabitants
of Newark are as much as they can be in a form (fn. 1),
and tell us the inhabitants of the town find themselves
grieved, and this Charter gives them not at all the benefit of the King's favour. The Counsel have not
mentioned this; it may be not for the particular interest of their Clients, but that is the fair ground of
the Petition of the townsmen.

Sir Francis Winnington.] He thinks he speaks with
great authority, when he cites that of this House.
The Patent you have voted good—This is not construed (the Writ, &c.) immediate to him directed.

Sir John Trevor.] The Patent directs Burgum nostrum;
Major &c. Aldermanni, &c. and they might have made
a good return of that Writ, and as good as if directed
to the Sheriff—But upon legal exposition—Good return Breve nostrum—His politic capacity—The Sheriffs
mandate is Breve nostrum—Either if the Sheriff or
Mayor return, in both cases it is good, and when it
appears, it is the King's pleasure to chuse and return.
The essential part is a Writ to the Sheriff, and a
precept thereupon, is the Election, and the Return—A
fair Return and Election—He would put the Question
upon Mr Savile's Return.

Sir Nicholas Carew.] He is glad to hear the best
strength of this Patent is our Vote, though against several Laws.

The Question being put, That, by virtue of the Charter granted
to the town of Newark, the town of Newark hath a right to
send Burgesses to serve in Parliament; it was resolved in the
Affirmative, 125 to 73.

The Question being put, That Mr Savile and Sir Paul Neale
are duly returned to serve in this present Parliament for the
town of Newark; it passed in the Negative, 103 to 102. And
a new Writ was ordered to be made out.

[March 22, 23, and 24, Omitted.]

Monday, March 26, 1677:

On the Motion for a farther Address to the King to
enter into a speedy and strict Alliance with the Confederates.

Sir William Hickman.] It is the danger of our very
being, if Flanders should be lost; which was the first
inducement of our Address. We need make no scruple of a War, in that case, if occasion be; and he
would have a Committee appointed to draw up a farther Address.

Sir Robert Thomas.] The way you are upon is to
prevent more men going out of Ireland, to the French
King's service. And the way you are upon is to prevent a general Peace, and a Committee to draw up
an Address to the King to prevent it, is the way to
do it, and moves it.

Sir John Trevor.] You have already addressed the
King to strengthen his Alliances, and the King answers, "He will take all possible care for the preservation of Flanders, that can consist with the Peace and
Safety of the Nation." We put out "the Netherlands," and put in "Flanders" to our Address to the
King. He thinks the preservation of "the Netherlands"
is of as great consequence as "Flanders." 'Tis the
King's Prerogative to make Peace or War. 'Tis he
that makes it, and he that breaks it. The Disciples
came to our Saviour, in the ship, and said, "Lord save
us, or we perish;" and we can say no more to the King.
The King of France is as great a Monarch as any in the
world, and he entered into strict Alliance with the
Dutch, and made it good, and we repaid it with our
Alliance with him against them.—For Preservation of
ourselves, would move "to preserve the Netherlands,"
and would have a Committee to draw up an Address,
to give the King assurance of farther Aids and Supplies (in case a War should be the consequence) for
the Preservation of Flanders.

Sir Thomas Clarges.] It seems to him, as if we were
about to save the Netherlands by nothing but talking.
Flanders was in danger before the Triple Alliance
was made, and that caused the King of France to go
back with his Army. But now our fears are of such
insinuation from those near the King, that by their
insinuations the King's good Intentions are intercepted.
In Scotland, men were levied by the King's Messengers, and put into the King's Prisons. The King's
name was abused in it. All the public Ministers of
foreign Princes avow that there is nothing between
France and Holland for a separate Peace, but the giving
back Maestricht, and a Treaty of Commerce, and how near
that may be, both being tired out by so long a Wa,
you may imagine the consequence. And if the Dutch
have strict Alliances with France, they will be masters at
Sea totally. Flanders is assaulted by the King of
France, because he succeeded not in Germany. St Omers
and Cambray are taken, and when there is such a terror amongst men, no man can tell the consequence.
17,000 men went to relieve Valenciennes, and yet it was
over-run (fn. 2). He seconds the Motion for a Committee.

Sir John Reresby.] He would not trouble the King
with a second Address; but moves that we may vote
to stand by the King and assist him in such a War as
may happen by the Address you have made him, and
that the Privy Counsellors of the House may acquaint
the King with it.

Col. Birch.] He is almost afraid to speak in this
matter. He looks on it as almost your all. Whatever the King's thoughts were on the first Address we
made, he sees not how his thoughts can alter on a
second. It is equal to him whether "Flanders," or
"the Netherlands," be in the Address. The Mischief
is, if France should make a Peace, 'twill ruin our Nation, and if so, whether is it time now to prevent it?
We made an Address to the King, some few days since,
but the noise of Axes and Hammers in building Ships,
giving and no more, men running out of Ireland and
Scotland—That is the case. Till the King and People
understand one another, all we do is to no purpose—
And there is nothing so like to unite us, as this of
securing the Netherlands. But he would not pay for
any thing, nor offer for it, till it were done—But
would give any assurance to attain our end—He
would see this Alliance made; it cannot be hid in a
corner—And then, upon signification thereof to the
Parliament, we may address to assist and aid the King
in it to the utmost—The Question is, whether this
was sufficiently couched in the former Address. In
that Answer you were told "That the King would do
for the preservation of Flanders what should consist
with the Peace of the Kingdom." The word is good;
and if we say so, we may have an Answer with effect—
We are by this second Address still doubting that we
are not at quiet; and this is plain dealing. Perhaps
we have provoked the Allies by suffering men to
go over to the French, and who can we expect help
from, if the French make Peace, and fall upon us?
Now is the time, and never but now, to stir in this
matter, and he would have a Committee to draw up
an Address to the King, &c.

Sir John Ernly.] He concurs with all that think
Flanders too considerable to be in the French hands.
You are told, "that timing an action is the life of it,
and now is the consideration of it, &c." We have an
Alliance defensive with the Dutch, but if we enter
into stricter Alliances with them, he would know what
Gentlemen would have unless a Declaration of War
with France, and that is positive—He will let you
see the condition you are in for War. You must
double the expence of the Navy—The King allows
the Navy 400,000l. a year, and that cannot do
it; keeping Ships wind and weather tight is the
most that can be done with that sum. If we have
time and money, the Ships are in good conditition. The Question is, whether you will give France
300,000 l. to go to War with him, for your Straits
trade will amount to as much. He has 40 Ships of
War in the Mediterranean, and if we enter into a present Alliance with the Dutch, and an immediate War
ensue thereupon, pray God the Dutch give us not the
slip, and leave us—And when you are in an actual
War, and they slip the Collar, and get the Trade from
you, he would have you consider of it. As for seeing
your Alliances first, (as has been said) before we pay
or offer any thing to support them, that very day
you enter into a War, a Vote of this House will not
set out a Fleet. When you are better informed, you
will do as wise men. But till then, would not be too
forward or hasty to go into this matter.

Sir Thomas Littleton.] Here have been several Motions made. The first was for "a second Address to
be made to the King," and then for "farther encouragement, by assisting him in case a War should be the
consequence of our Address—" To that he will apply himself. We sent our last Address up to the Lords
for their concurrence, and they raised a query, and
had reason to do so. Those Addresses to King James
concerning the Palctinate were much of the same nature. But this was so short a one for so great a matter, that it put the Lords to a stand. The King answers, "He will take such care as will consist with
the Peace of the Kingdom," That is, by way of Peace
he will do what he can, but not by War. But if we
make this Address more ample, as 'tis now proposed,
the King has the whole matter before him, and may
give you occasion to declare yourselves accordingly.
If this be not so home as formerly we have done, we
put the King on many difficulties—Because he has not
assurance of Money, he cannot treat like other Princes;
but with the assurance of this House, that difficulty is
taken away, and he is as good as another Prince. In
case there be a general Peace, how miserable should
we be ! But what Fleet have the Dutch? The French
are not omnipotent. They have their hands full by
Land and Sea. Has the French King Money to do
all things in the World? Have the Dutch a Fleet in
the Mediterranean? The King of France can do no more
than he can, though he can do a great deal more than
we could wish. In the Straits the Dutch are forced to
have convoys. But the French Ships cannot go a
privateering. They are determined to carry Ships into
Sicily, and are guards, and cannot run out at Merchant-men a privateering. Wethen are not in suchimminent danger, as is apprehended. We are afraid of the
danger that if Holland should close with France—But
there is nothing, in his apprehension, but a tergiversation of this Parliament that will do it. He fears it
not this summer, but before next winter, we may find
it to our cost—He is apprehensive of his extraordinary
zeal against France; and would not be cool now—
Here is no intention to entrap Gentlemen into Money
by this Address, but this will give reputation; a jewel
that cannot be bought too dear. He would do as
others have done—No less occasion is offered us, and
hopes we shall do it on this great occasion. He hears
that great men, in the Lords House, are for it, and
he likes them the better for it—We may give them
now this handle, and leave it with them, and he will
not be short in his Assistance, if the King will please
to do it, &c.

Mr Secretary Williamson.] He agrees entirely in the
end of the Address you propose, to save Flanders from
falling into the hands of the French, as a thing necessary to the safety of England. He will tie himself
only to the necessity of reinforcing this by way of
Address to the King—He understands your meaning
fully. By the preservation of "the Spanish Netherlands" and "Flanders," the King means the same
thing, and the King answers your desire of Alliances
"as much as possibly may consist with the Peace of the
Kingdom." Some think that the word "Peace" needs
an explanation. He thinks it not at all necessary.
The King thinks you will submit to all hazards and
costs that you shall put him to by this Address, and that
he may enter into such an Alliance as may not break
the Peace of the Nation. It cannot be the meaning of
any Gentleman for the King to break into a War tomorrow. Not that 'tis an unadvisable counsel, or impossible to be put into execution. For the French, in the
first place, will then be Masters of our Plantations,
having Ships there, and we none. That Alliance you
advise, cannot be thought out of the King's care,
but your applying so earnestly about it may keep him
from better conditions in the making it. How many
several parts, arms, legs, and fingers, have the Alliances! And will you suffer yourselves to be Guarantees for all these Alliances now entered into, and
you no way concerned? Will men, to prevent a future
evil, put themselves out of a present good? You
mean not, he is sure, such an Alliance as all the help
to support it must come from you, and nothing from
them. Would you come in Pro quotâ et pro ratâ of
support with the interest and alliances of persons of
cross byasses in interest? But suppose you lay aside
interest, will you depend upon their quota's? Your
Lucrum cessans? No Nation can enter into this War
now, that will be three years old. If you will not
enter into their quota, then you enter upon your own
power barely. What then is your strength to be
alone? Thirty Ships more. Then what is meant by
"stricter Alliances," that you would enter into, he
knows not. He thinks the King's Answer to your
Address as full as may be; and should you go again
to him, he could give you no farther Answer.

Mr Powle.] Is of opinion that a farther Address
should be made to the King for securing Flanders
from the French conquest, &c." He conceives that the
King's Answer is not so full as you can wish. He
will not except at the distinction between "the
Spanish Netherlands" and "Flanders," it being the
common way of speech for either—Our meaning, by
our Address, was the reduction of the French power to
an equality with their neighbours, and to that you have
no Answer. He thought it was the opinion of the
House, that if it could not be done by Peace, or
Treaty, then by a War. He knows not but this
deficiency of the King's Answer may be from a desire of farther assurances from us to stand by him, in
what we desire. If these three towns (fn. 3) be got from
the Spaniards, Flanders cannot subsist without your
arms, or some body's else. But it sticks with him
that the King does not understand the desires of the
Nation, and that we have contributed to the French
greatness more than any other Nation; as by selling
him Dunkirk, to let the French into our bowels, and
our War with Holland gave him occasion to enter into
the bowels of the Dutch. It has been said, "that France
never broke that League," but he is sure we helped
him to over-run the provinces—We have sent France
supply of Scotch, Irish, and English Regiments, and when
the officers come back to recruit, they are very well
received here, and 'tis evident that this Alliance with
France is much befriended by some near the King.
'Tis answered, " by this we enjoy Peace, and have the
benefit of Trade, and the conveniences of that Kingdom." He likes not a state of neutrality which has
always been fatal, and made such at last a prey to the
Conqueror. France is too great to be defended from
that power. 'Tis said " the Navy is not in a present
state for War." If so, he is sorry for it. It was an
unfortunate accident, our Prorogation for fifteen
months, and in that time the Navy was put into no
condition to enter into a War with France, if occasion
was. He moves that we may therefore let the King
know our desires, " that he would turn his thoughts
that way, and that Counsels may be changed, and
that Money would be given, if such Counsellors may
not have the management of it." We have done it,
and there is no harm to express it now plainly to the King.

Mr Vaughan.] Your Address is answered by the
King, but whether your ends are answered, or not,
it being too short, the King is no way obliged to
surmise what your meaning is by it. He is sorry to
hear to-day what lately was represented to us to the
contrary, viz. "That we have not an ordinary guard of
Ships abroad." If opposition be the case, you must assist
the Alliances with pay for it, and it must be done by
other men. All persons abroad do not understand the
obligation between the King of England and his Subjects. Therefore he is for keeping the words of "stricter
Alliances" in the Address.

Sir Henry Capel.] What have we made the first Address for? Supposes, to incline the Confederates to continue the War, and maintain it. When we have great
Ships, and Stores, then is a time for us to talk of
War. And our policy is to gain time, under the
shelter of War, to build our Ships—And under the
shelter of a War with Holland, France grew great upon
us. It is said, "That in the Address there are words
that import War." He agrees to it, and you must stand
by it—Consider, have you strengthened the King for
it, in your Address? He believes the King's Answer
comes not up to our Address.—And if ever we spoke
the sense of the Nation, 'tis in this matter, and those
that are not come up to that opinion, he hopes, in
time will. The sense of the Nation is of weight. Was
there not a time when the Nation was governed by an
Army? But when once the Nation was enlivened with
a handful of loyal persons, it was never at ease, till
it came hither, and expressed their sense, and brought
the King home. An Army is nothing to the sense
of the Nation, let who will espouse it. Let the King
and People be right in this matter, and if his Ministers will promote it, they deserve a reward for it.
Let us see the Treaties, and then this body can never
go against their own interest—And moves for a Committee to draw up the Address.

Sir Henry Ford.] This may be necessary hereafter;
but he knows not the necessity of putting the King
upon a farther Answer hastily. He would consider the
nature of the thing—'Tis not possible so suddenly—Are
all Ambassadors here to give Answer? Are all Plenipotentiaries? He believes that the King is of your
mind, but would wait a little—Rather vote "That if
not, we will assist him with our utmost."

Sir Thomas Lee.] He thinks farther assurances no
ground—But by this Address of "stricter Alliances,"
it may be with France, and [we may be] bound up by
that—So he protests he cannot tell how to give his
Vote.

Mr Garroway.] May it not consist with other
Leagues we are in for the King to lend Money to the
Confederates? To do that with a little sum, which we
cannot do with three times so much? If you can, drive
things so as to save your own flesh, and make use of
theirs—He knows not how this may be done without breach of Treaties. Queen Elizabeth did some
such thing before she broke first with the Spaniards—
But he has changed his opinion, and begins to be of
the mind of those Gentlemen, to come roundly to
the King to show him, if he be not satisfied with our
Address, that if War be seriously entered into, he
need not doubt but we will stand by him as long as
the War lasts. But he is against a Vote of "Lives
and Fortunes:" That cost us 2,500,000l. and put us
upon all the fatal runs that were in the consequence of
it. Whenever that War is entered into, he would
engage only from six months to six months. We must
be allowed to talk freely of this, and he wishes no
Papist may have a hand in it; nor those who have
counselled the raising men for the French service. If
you will put the Question "for any assurance that the
House will not forsake the King in it," he will give
his Vote for it.

Sir John Ernly.] He sees Gentlemen not now for
a new Address, but a declaration of the former.

The Question proposed was, That a farther Address be made
to his Majesty, to give him an assurance, that if, in pursuance of
the Address presented to his Majesty from both Houses, his
Majesty shall find himself necessitated to enter into a War, this
House will fully aid his Majesty from time to time, and assist
him in that War.

Mr Sacheverell.] Is against this Question, from those
arguments for it. He looks on this Address as taken
for granted that we should run the way of our own
ruin; therefore he will take the more liberty to speak
to it. He takes this Question to be an approbation
of the King's last Answer; but what sticks with him is
another point. You were told "That the King was
satisfied in general, that you would assist him; if War
should be the consequence of this Address, he is not
in a condition to enter into it—The Alliances would
produce War—" He is of opinion that what Alliances
you make, or may make, you rush into no War. He
can never be satisfied that the Country is satisfied,
whilst men are raised whilst you sit here. Common
Fame says that Ammunition, and Artillery, and Horse
are gone into France; the Arms marked with the
Tower mark;— known here, and ought to be sacred.
He thinks you safe, when the sum of Money is in
your own hands, and not in those that tell you, you
can neither make such Alliances, nor a War, and yet
send Ammunition to the French.—Declare downright
War, and he will go along with them.

Mr Secretary Williamson.] He thinks Gentlemen are
not resolved that this shall be a War. Not one word
is answered—If the King enter into a War, we resolve
to assist him. Has it yet been answered the quota
of our proportion? Will you rely upon the success of
what the Confederates do, to what you will do? Is
it advisable that England should leave the success of
their great interest on every little interest of Germany,
to make it equal to the fate England runs in an endless
War? And you have all interruption of Commerce,
and hazard the Plantations, and they have nothing
to recompense you but hopes of their helping you to
get Flanders from the French again—And can you think
that they who have truckled with these and have been
for them all this time, will stick to you that came to
their assistance at the latter end of the day? He speaks
now but as a Commoner—The scheme was from another man, not his own—If you enter into a War, would
not the next hour be a Peace? Therefore you, in doing
one thing, would have that which will cost you nothing—Do another thing.

Sir Eliab Harvey.] We are told "that France will
take our Plantations from us, should we enter into a
War;" but will not that fear be always upon us? They
do it already. Never was a better time than now to break
with France; for in the end of summer France will
make a Peace, and then we shall be much more unfit
for War than now—He is for War.

Mr Powle.] Moves that a Committee may be appointed to form the Address upon the Debate of the
House.

1st Question, Whether an Address shall be made to the
King?

2d Question, If, in pursuance of this Address, &c. the
King shall be constrained to enter into a War, that we will
aid and assist him in the prosecution of that War.

Both passed in the Affirmative, and a Committee was appointed
to draw up the Address.

The Speaker.] In this you cannot refer to the former
Address, because the Lords joined in it. This relating to Money, the Commons make it only.

Col. Birch.] He something doubts the matter now—
He would be sure to have it.

Footnotes

2. The King of France was then
making one of his early Campaigns
in Flanders, and had taken Valenciennes by storm about ten days before this Debate, where he in person entered the breach to put a stop
to the sury of the Soldiers, and by
this exploit gave Sir William Temple
occasion to say "That he had surmounted the very force of the seasons."
Afterwards "dividing his Army
in two, be with the one besieged
Camhray, while the other, commanded by his brother, besieged
St Omers. The Prince of Orange
looking on St Omers as more important than Cambray, went thither, and ventured a battle too
rashly [at Mont cassel.] On that
defeat St Omers did immediately
capitulate, as Cambray did some
days after. These things happening during this Session of Parliament, made great impression on
all people's minds." Burnet.