Peki:factoryconnection: Peki: You can make the same correlation with legalized abortion. Surprise! When there are fewer poor people, crime tends to go down.

It does for the US, but the abortion thing doesn't play out the same way in other countries, but all countries have had and then banned leaded gas and the correlation holds true.

I don't think any other country had legalized abortion to the extent the US had. In most other countries where it's legal, I think it's restricted to health of the mother and rape/incest. Feel free to prove me wrong.

That is his point, that your abortion comment has nothing to do with lead.

derekdoubleut:I'm all for locking up violent offenders who are a danger to society. However, I do not like the idea of the prisoners having to fork over $$ to pay for the privilege of being locked up. IMO, this is like paying a court fee to be found not-guilty for a B.S. ticket. I realize the analogy is not quite on the same level, but it the best I could come up with at this moment.If society wants these laws and prisons, let society pay for them through taxes.

Well, look at other situations and you'll notice that charging the guilty money to complete their punishment isn't unique to prisoners. I used to install breathalyzers into the cars of those who were arrested for drunk driving (not convicted, just arrested). The company that I worked for charged up to $150 for an install, up to $75/month for the state mandated calibration and $45 for the device to be removed (even if you removed it yourself you were still charged the $45 removal fee). Add to that the monthly probation officer visit that our clients had to make for the length of the probation at $75 per P.O. visit and you realize that probation is paying for the honor of letting the state monitor what you do with the threat of "step out of line once and you're probation gets revoked". And in the case of those arrested for DUI, not paying the $75/month to the P.O. can result in arrest, not paying the breathalyzer company or even missing an appointment can result in your car not starting and arrest (the state would assume that you did something wrong and are avoiding your monthly calibration, or you did something to your device). Not to mention the classes that have to be attended and the community service (and I have no idea if the classes are free or not).

Now, people will read that and say "Yeah, but those are drunk drivers, they could have..." and then relay horror stories about killed children and lives shattered. And yes, I will agree that such a thing is possible as a drunk driver. But the above is true for someone arrested for a 0.12 or a 0.081. A mother farking 0.08 shouldn't be an arrest, but that's more of another thread kind of thing. But either way it's paying money to continue to be punished for your crime and being told to pay or return to jail.

Smackledorfer:Peki: factoryconnection: Peki: You can make the same correlation with legalized abortion. Surprise! When there are fewer poor people, crime tends to go down.

It does for the US, but the abortion thing doesn't play out the same way in other countries, but all countries have had and then banned leaded gas and the correlation holds true.

I don't think any other country had legalized abortion to the extent the US had. In most other countries where it's legal, I think it's restricted to health of the mother and rape/incest. Feel free to prove me wrong.

That is his point, that your abortion comment has nothing to do with lead.

On a side note, why is it so hard to believe that lead is bad?

It isn't, I know lead is bad.I was just pointing out another possible explanation, is all.

Peki:dsmith42: Droog8912: factoryconnection:There's a very strong correlation with the rise and fall of violent crime on a time-delayed basis with the introduction and later banning of lead in gasoline in societies worldwide. Lead exposure in children damages development of the pre-frontal cortex, which is important for making rational decisions in emotional situations. For those with the right brain chemistry, that damage basically turns off their "morality" switch and leads to ape-sh*t crazy behavior in adolescence and young adulthood.

This match-up has been studied among countries that had different times for introduction and removal of leaded gas from society, and it has a very strong correlation.

Interesting theory. Do you happen to know the name of the study?

Mother Jones article going into more detail about the data

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasol in e

Study from 2000 cited in article (pdf file) showing 90% correlation for 23 year lag in lead exposure in the USA

You can make the same correlation with legalized abortion. Surprise! When there are fewer poor people, crime tends to go down.

From the NBER summary,

"From 1992 to 2002, violent crime dropped 34 percent. Reyes estimates that declining lead exposure was responsible for a 56 percent decrease in this time period, legalized abortion for another 29 percent decrease, while other factors combined to produce a 23 percent decrease. The remaining 74 percent increase, a sustained rise of about 3 to 5 percent annually, remains unexplained. "

Peki:factoryconnection: Peki: You can make the same correlation with legalized abortion. Surprise! When there are fewer poor people, crime tends to go down.

It does for the US, but the abortion thing doesn't play out the same way in other countries, but all countries have had and then banned leaded gas and the correlation holds true.

I don't think any other country had legalized abortion to the extent the US had. In most other countries where it's legal, I think it's restricted to health of the mother and rape/incest. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I believe abortion is legal in most industrialized nations. The USA is far more conservative than most of europe, except ireland.

It's very common in japan, and it's extremely common in several Asian nations for sex selective purposes, especially china. In korea, there's almost no out of wedlock births. If you get pregnant out of wedlock, you are expected to abort.

obamadidcoke:Okay, people who are convicted of misdemeanors can pay $155 a night to stay in a particular jail. This means that a businessman who is convicted of DWI can pay to avoid being in an overcrowded unsafe jail with poor people, while a poor laborer who is jailed over non-payment of a vehicle registration ticket gets thrown into what is basically a violent out of control hellhole.

So, a guy who risks the lives of people around him gets safety and a guy who can't afford car registration gets danger.

o'really:uber humper: Maul555: Lucky LaRue: Yes, you read that right: Rich people have their own jails.

so farked up...

And think, it's in the most liberal part of the country.

Uh, ya... Not true.

I'm sure Vermont or some other NE area can claim that title.

You've never been to San Francisco. Fremont is a little more conservative, but not by much. Other Alemeda county cities include Berkley and Oakland - in one of those you will be shot for being a republican the other you would be stabbed (guns evil). There is nowhere on Earth more left wing than Berkley -- I can't call them liberal, they are hard lefties.

As much as the so-called libs should be against this, they allow it in their back yard.

uber humper:o'really: uber humper: Maul555: Lucky LaRue: Yes, you read that right: Rich people have their own jails.

so farked up...

And think, it's in the most liberal part of the country.

Uh, ya... Not true.

I'm sure Vermont or some other NE area can claim that title.

You've never been to San Francisco. Fremont is a little more conservative, but not by much. Other Alemeda county cities include Berkley and Oakland - in one of those you will be shot for being a republican the other you would be stabbed (guns evil). There is nowhere on Earth more left wing than Berkley -- I can't call them liberal, they are hard lefties.

As much as the so-called libs should be against this, they allow it in their back yard.

Correction, I see you're in San Jose. You know Alameda county then. Vermont, yea they wear tweed and elbow patches, but they don't protest like the Bay Area folk.

uber humper:uber humper: o'really: uber humper: Maul555: Lucky LaRue: Yes, you read that right: Rich people have their own jails.

so farked up...

And think, it's in the most liberal part of the country.

Uh, ya... Not true.

I'm sure Vermont or some other NE area can claim that title.

You've never been to San Francisco. Fremont is a little more conservative, but not by much. Other Alemeda county cities include Berkley and Oakland - in one of those you will be shot for being a republican the other you would be stabbed (guns evil). There is nowhere on Earth more left wing than Berkley -- I can't call them liberal, they are hard lefties.

As much as the so-called libs should be against this, they allow it in their back yard.

Correction, I see you're in San Jose. You know Alameda county then. Vermont, yea they wear tweed and elbow patches, but they don't protest like the Bay Area folk.

I had to look it up. Alameda county isn't in the top 20 most liberal counties. But some other bay area counties are up there, so i forgive you...

o'really:obamadidcoke: Okay, people who are convicted of misdemeanors can pay $155 a night to stay in a particular jail. This means that a businessman who is convicted of DWI can pay to avoid being in an overcrowded unsafe jail with poor people, while a poor laborer who is jailed over non-payment of a vehicle registration ticket gets thrown into what is basically a violent out of control hellhole.

So, a guy who risks the lives of people around him gets safety and a guy who can't afford car registration gets danger.