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Topic: Prophecy (Read 273450 times)

Ok, it's late and I'm tired, so I prolly shoudn't even go here, but you are always saying, ww, that the Jews don't believe in Hell. They believe in some type of corrective phase that doesn't last longer than one year. Obviously this would come out of what is called by Jesus, 'traditions of men,' because I don't see anything resembling that in the OT. However, if they did believe such a thing, why would they perceive a need for a Savior who dies for their sins at all? They might have understood the suffering servant in a totally different way, therefore.

But, you can see the importance of knowing all the prophecies by heart, even if you don't understand them.

Often that's not true. Even the opposite. When people don't understand they just start to invent their own explanations. It quicly becomes such a mess a less learned, but very honest, seeker drowns in a swamp of fantasies.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Ok, it's late and I'm tired, so I prolly shoudn't even go here, but you are always saying, ww, that the Jews don't believe in Hell. They believe in some type of corrective phase that doesn't last longer than one year.

Yes, that's what I've read on Jewish (orthodox) websites. But likely there are Jewish sects that have a different view.

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Obviously this would come out of what is called by Jesus, 'traditions of men,' because I don't see anything resembling that in the OT.

Assuming you are refering to the 12 months....I think the OT is far from complete. Example, the whole life of Adam is described in a few verses. That however doesn't mean Adam didn't pass on knowledge that never was written down by Moses. But yes I too have wondered where the 12 months come from. Plus more detailed statements about 3 months. I never found an explanation. Maybe I should just write a Rabbi. The only guess I can make is that it's related to the harvests. Or by reading Hebrew in a 'special way'.

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However, if they did believe such a thing, why would they perceive a need for a Savior who dies for their sins at all? They might have understood the suffering servant in a totally different way, therefore.

Depends greatly on when they believe those 12 months take place. The moment they die? Or after the servant/warrior arrived?

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

We see the ships of chittim are already in place, warships from 25 countries in the Strait of Hormuz.

There are border skirmishes now between Turkey and Syria, which could trigger the NATO alliance at any time.

But, who is the king of the north?

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

Daniel referred to the Antichrist as "the leader who will come, the little horn, the beast and the stern faced king."

In Daniel 11, he also referred to the Antichrist as the king of the North. The king of the North and the land of the North is what Jeremiah called the territory of the Assyria and Babylon. The Assyrian Empire was conquered by the Babylonians in 626 B.C. Both the Assyrian capital of Asshur and the Babylonian capital of Babylon were located in present day Iraq, see map below.

These empires essentially comprised the same territory which included present day Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

In Ezekiel 38 and 39 the Antichrist's two campaigns against Israel are interwoven in the prophecy. Included are details of the Antichrist and his armies coming against Israel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. The prophecy also describes the Antichrist and his armies coming against Jerusalem at the end of the age.

Ezekiel refers to the Antichrist as Gog, the chief prince, from the land of Magog. The ancient land of Magog included some of the territory represented by present day Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajan, and Russia near the Black Sea.

Isaiah referred to the Antichrist as the Assyrian and the king of Assyria. One of Isaiah's several prophecies on the topic tells how Israel will at first rely on the Assyrian until he beats them with the club. But, then finally they will turn to the Holy One of Israel. This description depicts the last 7 years of the Time of the End when the Antichrist will be Israel's protector (first 3.5 years) until he attempts to wipe them out in the Great Tribulation (last 3.5 years).

Isaiah's prophecy also says that a remnant of Israel will turn to Yahweh and be saved from the Antichrist. When Isaiah refers to the Antichrist as the Assyrian, he is indicating from where the Antichrist will come. Ancient Assyria included territories represented by present day Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran.

Jesus, John and Paul spoke about the Antichrist. Jesus called the Antichrist 'the abomination that causes desolation.' Paul called the Antichrist 'the man of lawlessness' and 'the lawless one.' However, neither Jesus nor Paul indicated from where the Antichrist would come.

In Revelation 13, John said that the Antichrist and his kingdom would be like a lion, a leopard and a bear. Daniel used these likenesses for the Babylonian, Media-Persian and Greek Empires.

The Bible again and again indicates that the Antichrist will come from the Middle East.

With biblical prophecy consistently pointing to the Middle East as the origin of the Antichrist, why do some people believe that the Antichrist will come from a revived Roman Empire like the European Common Market?

This deception is from a sentence in Daniel 9:26 which says, "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary."

One subject of Daniel 9:26 above, is "the people", the other is "the ruler who will come".

The people will be of the same people as the ruler who will come. This means the people and the ruler will be of the same national origin. If the people are Greek then the leader in question will be Greek. So, when we know the national origin of the people we will also know the national origin of the leader.

Part of this prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish sanctuary. According Josephus, the people that destroyed the sanctuary were predominately Syrian.

Some people have incorrectly assumed that, because it was a Roman army, the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary were Romans. However, it was customary for Rome to conscript soldiers from territories they had conquered. In this campaign the Roman troops were predominately Syrians.

Therefore, the ruler who will come will be of Syrian origin. Syria, at that time, included some of the territory of present day Syria, Lebanon and Turkey.

The ruler who will come is the Antichrist which is confirmed in Daniel 9:27. Daniel identifies the ruler who will come this way.

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him"

Therefore, Daniel is indicating in this prophecy that the Antichrist will come from the Middle East.

But as the US contemplates administering drone strikes and raids, it may harm relations with Libya.

Strikes against the suspected attackers would require the US military to enter Libyan territory against the wishes of the national government. While Libyan Prime Minister Mustafa Abu Shagur called the assault on the US consulate "a cowardly, criminal and terrorist attack," he said extremists in the country were a small minority that does "not number more than 100 or 150." The prime minister expressed his opposition to having any foreign troops on Libyan soil.

"We will not accept anyone entering inside Libya," he said. "That would infringe on sovereignty and we will refuse."

there are many anti-christs....many members of the one body..just as we are many members and one...

many false prophets in the false prophet..many men as beasts in the beast.

I know my christian orthodox syrian doctor is devasted...and having great sorrow over the tribulation

his family in Syria is expierencing..pray for him and them....christians first received the name

christian in Antioch in Syria.....also Rachael and Leah were from Syria

What makes this more complicated and troubling, it appears that the attack on Turkey from Syria might have been caused by the rebels who are fighting the Syrian army. Why would Syria lob rockets across the Turkish border out of the blue? But, rebels looking to weaken Syria would have a motive--to involve Syria in a wider war. And, guess who is supplying those rebels with arms?

But, you can see the importance of knowing all the prophecies by heart, even if you don't understand them.

Often that's not true. Even the opposite. When people don't understand they just start to invent their own explanations. It quicly becomes such a mess a less learned, but very honest, seeker drowns in a swamp of fantasies.

I think the mass drowning stared in 1999-2000.We were even bombarded from secular radio that the world.was going to end or there was going be something catastrophic.The main stream American Church was leading the way.They missed, there dates were off (luckily most church goers don'tknow there bibles or there would be a lot of prophesiers getting stoned right now.)

The secular have moved on to different dangerous scenarios as they thinkwill titillate there audience.The prophesiers of the new group of end timers are just as wrong as theOLD group.

And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

It is not a strong exploit to cut and paste any kind of bad stuff you find on the internet.

I would be more convinced (if I wasn't listening to the spirit )If some one posted articles that didn't fit there end times scenarios.Posted them and explained why (Even Though) this article doesn't support my view,explain why they still believe in there end time scenarios.

Come gather 'round peopleWherever you roamAnd admit that the watersAround you have grownAnd accept it that soonYou'll be drenched to the boneIf your time to youIs worth savin'Then you better start swimmin'Or you'll sink like a stoneFor the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and criticsWho prophesy with your penAnd keep your eyes wideThe chance won't come againAnd don't speak too soonFor the wheel's still in spinAnd there's no tellin' whoThat it's namin'For the loser nowWill be later to winFor the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawnAnd, The curse it is castThe slow one nowWill later be fastAs the present nowWill later be pastThe order isRapidly fadin'And the first one nowWill later be lastFor the times they are a-changin'.

But why is that the great falling away? Why not for example when Augustine's ET doctrine started I think the great falling away that is described could be a transition to another religion altogether, especially one where Jesus is not the Son of God but a minor prophet who will kill Jews and Christians when he returns.

As opposed, to another sect, denomination, or flavor of Christianity that some would consider heresy, like Protestant vs Roman Catholic.

My understanding of "the great falling away" is that it is what happened as this "religion" that had no temples, no priests, and no objects of veneration (that is, "worship) for over 300 years was replaced with what Jesus called gentile authority, its bureaucracy, basilicas (or, temples,) a priesthood paid for with money that financed other religious of the Roman Empire, and objects for worship. This alternative to every member participation as the family of God was very soon killing those experiencing spiritual revivals and those who possessed copies of scripture in their own languages. This was poised in the world claiming itself to be the one and only "Church," the true and only Christianity. Without "it," more precisely, without "them," those who were in an intimate relationship with the institution with titles of blasphemy, without them, they say, there is no salvation.

What is "the great apostasy" (which is another way to translate, "the great falling away,") if this continuing abomination with her daughters is not? Don't misunderstand me. I'm not referring to the many saints of God who are part of those people in Mystical Babylon. Somehow they need to hear, "Come out of her, my beloved." What do you think was ruling to bring about "the dark ages?" Some say that period can be viewed in a positive light and that it was secular historians, antagonistic to religion and God, who provided the label "dark" ages as a slander. That discussion, one way or another, doesn't derail my assertion that we see a great falling away, a great apostasy early on in a Christian history mostly written by the minions of that apostasy.

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Paul knows the details but he doesn't know when it will happen. He is talking about two events here, the appearance of a man on the world scene who is the Antichrist, the same man spoken about in the book of Daniel, and the return of the Lord Jesus. He tells us that this man will not be known to the world until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. Then the world will know who he is because of his vile deeds that are no longer held back. And, only after he has been revealed to the world will Jesus return. So, he is giving us an order of events. But, the very first thing that must happen is a major apostasy among men.

Paul tells us things must happen in this order.

The order Paul gives of these events:

1)men turn away from the most high God2)Holy Spirit taken out of the way3)Antichrist is released to do his evil deeds4)He will do fake miracles and wonders5)everyone will be fooled except the elect6)Jesus returns7)Antichrist destroyed

Brothers and sisters, we want to ask you something. It has to do with the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. It concerns the time when we will go to be with him.

2 What if you receive a prophecy, report or letter that is supposed to have come from us? What if it says that the day of the Lord has already come? If it does, we ask you not to become easily upset or alarmed.

3 Don't let anyone trick you in any way. That day will not come until people rise up against God. It will not come until the man of sin appears. He is a marked man. He is sentenced to be destroyed. 4 He will oppose everything that is called God. He will oppose everything that is worshiped. He will give himself power over everything. He will set himself up in God's temple. He will announce that he himself is God.

5 Don't you remember? When I was with you, I used to tell you those things.

6 Now you know what is holding the man of sin back. He is held back so that he can make his appearance at the right time. 7 The secret power of sin is already at work. But the one who now holds that power back will keep doing it until he is taken out of the way.

8 Then the man of sin will appear. The Lord Jesus will overthrow him with the breath of his mouth. The glorious brightness of Jesus' coming will destroy the man of sin.

9 The coming of the man of sin will be Satan's work. His work will be seen in all kinds of fake miracles, signs and wonders. 10 It will be seen in every kind of evil that fools people who are dying. They are dying because they refuse to love the truth. The truth would save them.

11 So God will fool them completely. Then they will believe the lie. 12 Many will not believe the truth. They will take pleasure in evil. They will be judged.

For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

and by our gathering together unto him,

And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

He shall speak words against the Most High

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;I will make myself like the Most High.'

This is certainly no quotation of scripture; and, though I've heard that since childhood, it is one of the most foolish "interpretations" of scripture I've encountered. The passage used for such a puerile idea can be translated, "until he be revealed from the midst," if I have remembered it properly. Regardless, there is no removal of God. Not ever!

The purpose of our participation in this kind of discussion is so that we both learn and unlearn things. It has been said that the greater part of wisdom is in what to unlearn. We are supposed to discard those things that turn us out of the way of truth. It is such a thorn to me that so many people seem so stubbornly attached to a wrongheaded "cartoon Christianity" that they heard growing up or early in their life as a believer. I was there before I knew the Lord and for a while after. As things began to change for me I couldn't understand how people who stayed there for years have the same Bible as I did, unless it is that they don't read it; but, surprise! surprise!, some of them do read it. What makes us so stiffnecked? I know that so much of what I used to believe has been revised. I knew the person of the Lord somewhat when I believed the dipsinsationalist's line; but I didn't stay there. I sought earnestly to have more of God and to better understand His written Word.

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:

And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations."

But the angel said to me, "Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and ithe man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

He shall speak words against the Most High,

and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,

and shall think to change the times and the law;

and they shall be given into his hand

for a time, times, and half a time.

And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.

Or possibly: (Gen 6:3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

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1 Timothy 2:3-4 ...God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved...John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Daniel 8:24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

Daniel 11:13 For the king of the North will muster another army, larger than the first; and after several years, he will advance with a huge army fully equipped.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

In Ezekiel 38 and 39 the Antichrist's two campaigns against Israel are interwoven in the prophecy. Included are details of the Antichrist and his armies coming against Israel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. The prophecy also describes the Antichrist and his armies coming against Jerusalem at the end of the age.

Ezekiel refers to the Antichrist as Gog, the chief prince, from the land of Magog. The ancient land of Magog included some of the territory represented by present day Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbajan, and Russia near the Black Sea.

No, none of this is found in the timeline of prophecy. Ezekiel does not refer to Antichrist as Gog, as the chief prince from the land of Magog. Nowhere in all of prophecy is AntiChrist ever referred to as a "prince", that is only inferred by yourself. The Bible describes exactly who this "Chief Prince of Meshech & Tubal" is.

I could go on & quote you at least eight different NT references for "prince" but I'll just give you the references instead & let you look them up: They are found in Matt 9:34, 12:24, Mk 3:22, Joh 12:31,14:30, 16:11, Eph 2:2, Rev 1:5.None of these references are used in conjunction with the so-called Antichrist, only as a direct reference to Satan himself, never ever Antichrist.

You are still failing to comprehend the timeline of prophecy with regard to the invasion of Israel by Gog & Magog led by the Chief prince of Meshech & Tubal in Ezek 38-39. It occurs at the end of the Millenium, not just before the beginning of it. Just read Rev 20: 7-8, this is not complicated Molly, and the invasion is done by one described as a "prince" not an Antichrist who has already been dead for over a thousand years.

Where have you ever seen a Biblical reference that Antichrist is the same individual as the Chief Prince of Meshech & Tubal? You should be able to see that if the two individuals are separated by one thousand years of human history, that they can't possibly be the same individuals.