Nation Network 2013 Mock Draft: Day 2

Yesterday we asked readers network-wide to vote their choices for the first 10 slots in this year’s entry draft. The results are in; which teams landed which players?

The Top 10

1. Colorado Avalanche: Seth Jones. There was a strong push by Nathan MacKinnon in what most readers see as a two horse race; in the end the potential franchise defenceman won out.

Advertisement - Continue Reading Below

2. Florida Panthers: Nathan MacKinnon. Florida adds a dynamic centre who likely would have been the first overall pick last summer.

3. Tampa Bay Lightning: Jonathan Drouin. While there are rumours that the Lightning will go off the board a little and take a chance on Valeri Nichushkin, the voters here play it safe, drafting Jonathan Drouin, the final member of the consensus upper-tier in this year’s draft.

4. Nashville Predators: Aleksander Barkov. No surprise here either; the big centre had a stellar season in Finland and will become a cornerstone piece in Nashville.

5. Carolina Hurricanes: Valeri Nichushkin. Nichushkin was the first player to really elicit a range of reaction – some had him ranked first overall; others outside the top-10 entirely. Ultimately he goes to Carolina with the fifth overall pick.

6. Calgary Flames: Sean Monahan. Calgary is expected to take a big centre, and Monahan certainly qualifies. He is an excellent prospect with a wide range of skills and won a three-way race against Lindholm and Nurse.

7. Edmonton Oilers: Elias Lindholm. This was the single-tightest vote on the board, with Lindholm just squeaking past Nurse in voting. Edmonton adds a high-quality centre, but not size, with this pick.

Advertisement - Continue Reading Below

8. Buffalo Sabres: Darnell Nurse. Nurse falls to the eighth spot, narrowly behind Lindholm but ahead of Shinkaruk by a mile. Buffalo adds a massive defenceman who can play the game and brings snarl.

9. New Jersey Devils: Hunter Shinkaruk. New Jersey had a lot of options here and this was by no means unanimous, but Shinkaruk – the smallish WHL winger known for speed and goal-scoring – was the final choice of our readers.

10. Dallas Stars: Rasmus Ristolainen. Ristolainen ranked significantly higher than 10th overall on some charts, and captures the final spot in our top-10, but not easily. He faced significant challenges from a number of players just outside – in particular Nikita Zadorov, Bo Horvat and Max Domi.

Selections 11-20

Unlike yesterday, today there will be no ranking of the players involved; they are presented in alphabetical order. The scouting reports are my own and are intended as summaries of other sources, including TSN, The Hockey News, Hockey Prospectus, Future Considerations as well as others.

Advertisement - Continue Reading Below

Pavel Buchnevich (KHL: 12GP, 1-1-2). Hands and hockey sense stand out as superb, and he certainly has top-six talent in the NHL. His skating gets mixed reviews – Future Considerations loves that part of his game, but Corey Pronman quotes one scout who describes it as only average. The KHL factor is another consideration, as is his lack of bulk. This is a player who could go anywhere in the draft: Corey Pronman has him at 17, while he doesn’t crack the top-100 of The Hockey News.

Andre Burakovsky (SWE2: 43GP, 4-7-11). The 6’1” Burakovsky gets top marks for his vision in the offensive zone and his skating, and he’s seen as a player with a potentially massive offensive upside. His physical game is hit and miss, and his defensive positioning could apparently be improved upon.

Advertisement - Continue Reading Below

Max Domi (OHL: 64GP, 39-48-87). Smallish winger is an “offensive dynamo” and gets pegged by The Hockey News as a power forward despite generally being listed at 5’9” or 5’10” because he plays such a fearless game (he’s also expected to play at 200 pounds or more at the NHL level). His effort level is questioned by some, and Future Considerations says that “self-control and maturity are still a work in progress.”

Adam Erne (QMJHL: 68GP, 28-44-72). The winger is a good skater, he’s strong on the puck, and he has goal-scoring ability. He isn’t seen as a strong offensive player otherwise, and he isn’t a high-end player in any category, but he has a well-rounded skillset. One scout The Hockey News quoted indicated that fitness might be an issue right now, but that he had potential to be even better if he his conditioning improved.

Zachary Fucale (QMJHL: 45-5-3, 0.909 SV%). The less-heralded teammate of Nathan MacKinnon and Jonathan Drouin is still without question the consensus top goalie of the 2013 Draft. He has solid size and is seen as positionally sound and economical rather than flashy. Was a first-team QMJHL all-star.

Frederik Gauthier (QMJHL: 62GP, 22-38-60). A 6’5” centre who skates well for his size, Gautheir gets good grades as a defensive forward and an intelligent player. What he lacks is a willingness to play a tough physical game, and his offence is open to question.

Robert Hagg (SWE Jr.: 28GP, 11-13-24). A 6’2” defenceman who also played 27 games in Sweden’s men’s league (picking up one assist), Hagg is a high-end skater with excellent vision and passing ability, a hard shot and a competent physical game. His own-zone work gets mixed reviews.

Ryan Hartman (OHL: 56GP, 23-37-60). Hartman plays a complete game on right wing: he hits, he scores and he defends. An above average skater, the only things keeping Hartman from going earlier are a combination of a) below average size (5’11”, 180 pounds) for such a physical player and b) questions about how his offensive ceiling is in the NHL.

Bo Horvat (OHL: 67GP, 32-28-60). Horvat’s trending upward since the NHL Numbers consensus rankings because he can do it all. He’s tough, plays a 200-foot game, scores goals and skates, too. The only question is how high is ceiling is offensively.

Morgan Klimchuk (WHL: 72GP, 36-40-76). A good offensive player who puts as much effort in on the backcheck as he does while scoring. Klimchuk is a good skater, can pass and shoot with equal ability and thinks the game well at both ends of the ice. On the downside, the left wing isn’t overly big and doesn’t add much physically.

Curtis Lazar (WHL: 72GP, 38-23-61). Lazar gets high marks for character and defensive play; he’s also seen as good skater and a safe pick. The question is how much offence he will generate in the NHL, because despite strong goal-scoring numbers he is seen by some as a player who lacks the creativity to be a top-six forward in the NHL. Read more at Oilers Nation.

Artturi Lehkonen (FIN: 45GP, 14-16-30). Lehkonen is not only a pure goal-scorer with fantastic numbers, but scouts rave about his hockey sense. He plays either wing, has good vision but is primarily a shooter, and despite being undersized (roughly 5’10”, 155 pounds) he has plenty of grit to his game. Corey Pronman notes he suffered from concussion problems this season.

Anthony Mantha (QMJHL: 67GP, 50-39-89). The 6’4” winger skates well and is a one-shot scorer, but he doesn’t play the physical game scouts would like to see. He’s also at the old end of the draft curve (he missed being eligible for the 2012 Draft by less than a weak) and outside of his shot he’s not seen as overly creative offensively by the consensus.

Samuel Morin (QMJHL: 46GP, 4-12-16). Morin is listed at either 6’6” or 6’7”, depending on the source, and aside from the fact that he’s massive the most remarkable thing about him is that he can skate. His offensive upside gets mixed reviews – the point totals suggest he’ll strictly be a stay-at-home guy in the NHL – and so does his hockey sense, with some praising is defensive game and others questioning his positioning. Plays a physical brand of hockey.

Josh Morrissey (WHL: 70GP, 15-32-47). Size is the issue here – the WHL defenceman is listed at 5’11”, 182 pounds. Otherwise there is a lot to like: he’s smart, he’s an excellent skater, his offensive tools are good and he relishes playing a physical game.

Mirco Muller (WHL: 63GP, 6-25-31). Jumping between scouting reports, I started feeling whiplash – there simply is no consensus on this guy’s ultimate ceiling and there is significant disagreement over how good he is now; some love him, some don’t like him at all. What is known is that he’s a 6’4” defender with at least solid puck skills, good skating, smarts, and the need to bulk up. Some project him as high-end complete defenceman, others say he’ll be steady in his own end but nothing special.

Ryan Pulock (WHL: 61GP, 14-31-45). Nobody doubts his elite shot, and Pulock has a strong puck-moving abilities, too. The trouble is his size and skating both fall into the average range, and there are mixed reports on his defensive play, which seems to be solid but unexceptional.

Kerby Rychel (OHL: 68GP, 40-47-87). A power winger with decent size, good bloodlines (his father is former NHL’er Warren Rychel), a strong physical game and outstanding scoring totals, Rychel is somehow not in the upper tier of the 2013 Draft Class. A big part of the reason is skating: it’s often criticized and seen as only average-ish. Beyond that, he’s more of a meat-and-potatoes generator of offence than overly creative, which has some wondering how high his ceiling is in the NHL.

Shea Theodore (WHL: 71GP, 19-31-50). A 6’2” defenceman who patterns his game after players like Erik Karlsson and Mike Green, Theodore’s skating, passing and shot give him the potential to be an impact NHL defenceman. He is, however, likely some distance away from realizing that potential – he lacks physical strength and his defensive game is a work in progress.

Alexander Wennberg (SWE2: 46GP, 14-18-32). 6’1” forward can play either wing or centre; he skates well, has good offensive tools and hockey sense that makes him both a threat to score and a good defensive forward. He needs to add bulk to his frame.

Nikita Zadorov (OHL: 63GP, 6-19-25). Another big defenceman (6’4”, 200 pounds according to the NHL site; most media outlets list him at 6’5”, 230 pounds), Zadorov is seen as a bit of a project. He’s a dominant physical player and extremely strong, and he fares well enough in other areas – he skates well given his size, makes a reasonable first pass – to be of real interest. The trouble is that while he has a lot of tools they haven’t come together yet; he’s raw defensively and lacks high-end offensive upside. If it all comes together, though, he could be an elite shutdown defender.

Valentin Zykov (QMJHL: 67GP, 40-35-75). A power winger with significant bulk for his age (he’s generally listed at either 6’ or 6’1” but 205+ pounds), Zykov is known for a willingness to go to the net with the puck, win battles along the boards, and backcheck defensively. Given that his skating gets middling marks, he’s essentially the reverse of the traditional Russian stereotype.

The thing that struck me was how reasonable MacTavish’s point about trading down seems after researching the depth picks for this draft. There is going to be quality available midway through round two.

Maybe I should correct myself, after what the Oilers end up doing with the seventh pick, is where I stop caring. I’m fine with trading down, but it either has to upgrade an important position like 2nd line LW or 2nd line C, or we have to get talent outright such as a top pairing D man.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, our first and Gagner for Philly’s first and Couturier. I know Philly is bully on him but I think this benefits both teams greatly. Plus it won’t be such a reach to pick Hovart, Lazar, or Gauthier at Philly’s spot, giving us good depth up the middle for years to come.

I’ve said this before but it bears repeating, Calgary and Edmonton fans have to stop with these trade fantasies that don’t involve actual high-end assets miraculously landing you a high-end asset.

There is nobody so interesting at #7 available that Philly would ever deal Couturier and their 1st for the #7 pick and Gagner. It just isn’t going to happen. No, throwing in Hemsky isn’t going to do it either. No, piling on the Maricin’s, and Arcebello’s isn’t going to change Holmstrom’s mind.

In the case of Edmonton, the only way to move up (or to get Couturier) is to trade one of the big 6 (Hall, Eberle, RNH, Schultz-the-good, Yakupov or Klefbom). Period.

All speculation that anybody will give you anything of superior value for Gagner should just stop. It’s embarassing.

In Calgary’s case the same thing needs to be said for moving up to #4 by moving the other 2 picks, and Cammalleri. Nobody is going to give us a franchise player Cammalleri. No, adding Tanguay (our version of Hemsky) to the deal will not make it better.

That all said, I can see scenarios where either team moves up, if Edmonton flips one of their big 6, or if Calgary puts Baertschi/Brodie and a package of 1sts together, they could indeed move up or make a big trade for an impact young player.

In what world is a rookie of two years who has yet to crack 30 points and a plus rating in the NHL, who plays a third line checking role, and only wins 43.4% of his faceoffs to date, higher value than a six year NHL veteran who is only 24 years old, who has yet to have less than 40 + points in a full season, who can play the wing, who is shorter but listed at the same weight of 191lb, and has the same faceoff win percentage over a longer career?

I know Philly likes Sean and they think he’s the future and whatever, but he has not shown he is going to be that guy with his point totals, plus minus, or face off percentage. So how or why is this guy such superior value for Gagner? Potential? Because he might be better at some point? Pahleese. If you’re a GM and you have a chance to upgrade at the centre position with a proven 6 year 40 + point guy who is also still getting better and better as his points this year showed, and you don’t do it because the rookie you’ve had for two years has been okay, then you would make a terrible GM.

This trade does benefit both teams, especially if Monahan or Nichushkin is available. It’s clear Philly has enough Simmonds and not enough Briers and Girouxs. They need talent and getting the 7th pick plus an upgrade of scoring talent help their team. Plus Gagner gets to play with size which is likely to help his defensive game. And Couturier gets to come here and play a larger role with some skill, which will help his scoring totals.

I myself have some concerns about why someone would think Couturier > Gagner. He has 4 inches and a few pounds on Sam but otherwise Sam kills him in every boxcar there is – including PIM’s – which show that Couturier doesn’t use his size.

I am aware that Couturier does fine in some advanced stats but that doesn’t change the fact he doesn’t score enough and isn’t going to scare anyone.

Couturier literally took on the toughest minutes a center can face and holds his own. Gagner pads his stats against the soft parade and on the powerplay but continually gets worked over by even mediocre opposition 5v5.

It’s not even close. Couturier is bigger, stronger, younger, cheaper and brings more to the table than Gagner.

In fact the whole point of your trade exercise is that he is markedly better than Gagner – or else why would the Flyers be getting back the #7 for their #15?

Gagner is the posterchild for players who produce points that are ’empty calories’, and get killed everywhere else. I’d be surprised if Edmonton could get a 2nd rnd pick for him straight up, let alone a deal that brings in a Couturier.

You realize you’re just saying things right. Bigger, stronger, younger? Are these things reflected at all in the score column? The fact that he’s younger, is that what he brings to the table? Oh sorry I forgot old man Gagner can’t skate with the youngins anymore. As much as I hate arguing with DSF, at least he brings some numbers to back up his argument (albeit cherry picked, but evidence non the less). You are just saying stuff with nothing to back it up.

First of all, he was fourth on his team for facing the toughest competition, whereas Gagner was 5th on the Oilers. So don’t tell me Couturier faced a barrage of the most difficult lines in the universe, while Gagner got nothing but a soft parade. Gagner got his position in competition 2nd line scoring. Likely he would have faced more difficult but I would imagine they weren’t keen on shoving his linemate Yak out against the league’s most difficult.

Second, Couturier didn’t have great line mates, he’s a player that needs skill to be good, not a player that makes those around him better, which fits perfectly in my trade scenario that would have him playing with skill like Yak, and have Gagner going to make those around him a bit better and more dangerous.

Fine if you disagree, but don’t just say he’s this and that, which have no numbers to back them up, all that is opinion. And in this case it’s misinformed opinion because all your points aren’t right.

Couturier faced the TOUGHEST competition among Philly centres…playing with Scott Hartnell on the 3rd line.

He started only 32.5 percent of his shifts in the offensive zone but finished in the offensive zone 44.7 percent of the time.

Gagner started 51.4 percent of his shifts in the offensive zone.

Couturier has a Corsi Rel of +2.1 meaning his team outshot the (tough) opposition while he was on the ice.

Gagner’s Corsi Rel was -4.3, meaning he was consistently outshot by the softer opposition he was playing.

Sam Gagner scored 21 points at evens while Couturier scored 11

Couturier played only 1:29/G on the PP while Gagner played almost twice as much at 2:55.

If you were to take away half of Gagner’s PP time, make him start in the offensive zone only 31 percent of the time AND have him play against the toughest competition, he would wilt like a week old bouquet.

If Couturier had his PP time doubled, got to start in the Ozone more than half the time AND got to play much weaker competition, I expect this would be no contest.

Bottom line is that Couturier who is THREE AND A HALF YEARS YOUNGER than Gagner, is already a much better two way hockey player.

I completely agree. Tanguay, cammi, hemsky and gagner are not valued assests. If boumeester (a first pairing d man) gets u a mid first and 2 no names, what does gagner (small, avg talent second line center on a poor team) get? Where would gagner play in chicago? La? Pitt? Maybe on the 3rd line as a skilled winger.. That’s not worth coutourier and an 11th in the deepest draft since 03. Not even close

I’m gonna go off the board here with number 15 being Connor Hurley..not in who I think will be picked 15th but where he should’ve been when we look back three years from now. Actually I think he could end up being a top ten quality player but I’ll put him at 15 just to be safe..
Very talented, Smart player..youngest in the draft and he’s got a lot of room to fill out..over six feet already but pretty light at around 180.

Ugh, good job putting this together Willis, but honestly after 7, I have a hard time caring.

The thing that struck me was how reasonable MacTavish’s point about trading down seems after researching the depth picks for this draft. There is going to be quality available midway through round two.

I have a hard time caring at 7 if the best we can do is Nurse or Nichushkin. I really hope MacT trades the pick if that’s the case.

I really liked Couturier in 2011 draft. I’ve never wanted a man so bad for so long……

Gotta keep in mind the crap shoot that the draft is. Picking 7th is the 4th or 5th best pick the oil have had in the last 30 years aside from the last 3 1st overalls. The organization needs to select an NHL’er at #7. No matter the position of the player, a top 15 pick needs to add a future roster player. These picks are the difference between having a good team for a year or two and having a perennial playoff contender. Entry level years are so much more important in the salary cap world.

If the rumours are true. I would do gagner for couturier and 11th in heart beat. I’d also do 7th, to T.O for Gardiner and 21st. I’d then try to package up 11 to try to get Hartnell from PHI. He’d be perfect. Conversely, a combo of Hovart/Lazar and Robert Hagg with those picks would be great. That’s bold and it improves both D and C depth now, and in the future. IF those rumours have any weight. Not bad ideas, but i doubt insider info on those ones.

Notice how I said, IF rumors are true, and I really doubt they have actual insider info on these. Some of the sources are out of T.O though, (blogs etc.) for these trades. The only embarrassing thing about that post is the fact that you can barely read well enough to understand it. Of course, you’d do that trade in heart beat, they’re a great deal, FOR US. But if someone outside of Oilersville is dreaming these sorts of things up (unequal of not – which i feel they are as well), for ASSETS that we have, it speaks to some perceptions out there about the types of things we have to work with and the strength that we carry towards getting quality. This is other fans proposing to fleece their own teams for what we have. Its much better than what we’ve heard the past few years, Omark plus for Weber trash, coming from Oil fans. Weber for Omark plus coming from their mouth sounds a lot sweeter.

MacT was a depth centre on the dynasty teams. And he also coached a team that was deep at centre to the SCF 2006. As you see from the Hawks/Bruins game last night, line matching is a heck of a lot easier when you have centres that can win draws. I expect MacT to pound the table hard for centres.

While Nurse projects to be the kind of Nasty Dman I would love to have I think we are far deeper on D prospects then big skilled forwards.

I look at one of Barkov, Nichushkin, Monahan, or even Lindholm as my 7th overall selection. As many have said Coutourier would look good here and so would Gardner. I would be excited by either of those moves.

I sincerely hope it turns out to be not K. Pelss although my heart still goes out to whoever it is and their family. I will offer that I was so shocked about the news of this. If it is Pelss, to his family I offer now my condolences.

Back to the draft, I had MacKinnon going 1st to Colarado with Jones 2nd at Flo, then had Nichushkin going 3rd to TB then Barkov to Nash at 4th. I then put Nurse picked at #5 because of Carolina’s need for defenceman and his being extremely marektable due to his uncle (McNabb)and father being in football.

Drouin 6th goes with Calgary. The reason of Drouin posibly going lower is his size although many in NHL history have succeeded greatly despite size issues.

The Oilers then get Monahan at #7. My other choice, even if Nurse was available would be Lindholm.

Now to continue… I would choose:

Ristolainen at 8th – Buf, Bo Horvat to NJD at #9, Shinkaruk to Dallas at #10, Zadorov to Philly at #11, Pulock to Pho at #12, Domi to Winn at #13, Weinberg to CBJ at #14, Zykov to NYI at #15, Mantha to Buf at #16, Lazar to Ott at #17, Detroit takes Jacob Rose at #18, CBJ takes Fucale at #19, Saan Jose goes for Kerby Rychel at #20….

If MacT is serious about moving out guys like Horcoff and Hemsky what’s to stop Feaster from shipping out Tangs or Cammy?

I mean we can hang on to these guys until we miss the playoffs for a few more years then end up trading them we would get less in return down the road. It doesn’t have to be both guys either. You don’t vets leading the teams in the finals right now.

I hope no one before us snags Monahan before us, some teams may pass up on Barkov because of the Russian issue.

I am hearing Cammy, Backlund and 22nd overall to Buffalo for Myers, Vanak and a 2nd rounder….

Seems pretty good to me… I think it is time to cut ties with Backlund so this trade is good for Calgary…. If not, the Flames should entertain trading Backlund along with a later 1st rounder to move up a few spots…. they might have to sign him first at ‘a home town discount’ but none the less they should cut ties with him.

Vanek is younger and better than Cammalleri, but his contract is worse.

Myers is about the same age (a year older?) than Backlund, both play difficult key positions (C and D), but Myers had a monster rookie season and then has slowly regressed since, while Backlund has been on a steady if slow upwards trajectory. Myers is on a big ticket contract already, while Backlund is still going to be on very affordable deals.

Backlund could be an average or slightly better #2, but if Myers can get his game together he could still be a dominant #1 blueliner. I think the homerun upside is with getting Myers.

Sliding from 22 to the 2nd rnd hurts though.

All in all, I would call it a solid trade for Calgary if it goes through, but also one that would be sure to ignite the fanbase..

You quickly shoot down the Philly/Oiler trade idea, yet this is a good trade to consider, of course it’s a good idea if you’re a flames fan. Sabers would be out of there freaking minds if they did that. I would do that deal in a heart beat if I was the flames…maybe they could fleece somebody for a change

There’s an article about Kristians on EJ right now. It appears confirmed, unfortunately.

“Arturs Vaiders, sports editor for Diena, a leading daily in this Baltic Sea coast nation. “He has died … (under) still unexplained circumstances. Information is that he has drowned and unfortunately this information is confirmed.””

Not big on adding another soft euro to the lineup in two yrs if this kid is even ready by then. Rather have the Paul Bunyan type in Darnell Nurse. What team couldn’t use a Rod Langway type on their back end. I’m sure he’d land somewhere in between that Rod Langway, Chris Pronger type D’man.

Edmonton needs to move up if they’re going to take a centerman, especially with Monahans foot quickness issues. Had enough of these soft over inflated euro types in Lindholm. First rounders are your best shot at elite potential players, not future bottom sixers.

If the Oilers are gonna deal with Philly I would want Brayden Schenn over Couturier due to skating skills…as of today…not in yrs to come. I believe Schenn has more grit and talent than Couturier…Schenn scores more too in the area Gagner does.

Trading Gagner plus the 7th for Couturier and the 11th today won’t change how next season goes…as Gagner did score more than 20 pts to Couturier.

If there was to be a trade…I would then look at now trading Hartikainen, Gernat plus the 7th for Schenn and the 11th (use that for Horvat).

Not sure though that I would even trade cause Horvat will be there at #7 if the Oil dont get Monahan and/or dont want Lindholm. The Oil have great future defencxe prospects…they need centre (two centres chosen in this draft yr plus a top goalie prospect as well)

Philly wants big and tough back…and it’s defence they want to have more so now.

I must agrre the points mad for couturier are very strong versus gagner..after the offnce aspect issue.

Myself?….I would want Couturier for centre now more than gagner.

But Philly wont go for Gagner and #7 for Couturier and #11 alone. Martin Gernat might have to be also thrown into the pot at least from the Oilers.

Based on your two different opinions of the kid from Philly…Couturier is absolutely the guy they would definitely keep with his size vs the Penguins, Rangers, NYI, Washington, Boston, Tampa Bay, etc.

My choice personally… trading with Philly goes for Brayden Schenn. His numbers are very decent as well (vs Couturier/Gagner). I believe he will be better offensively than Couturier as he has better speed to move along with Yakupov and say…Stalberg/or Horton (if picked up thru UFA)

Virtually every rumour in the last two years coming out of Alberta has been that either Schenn-the-better or Couturier were going to be traded here.

I just don’t see it.

To your suggestion DSF that adding a Gernat (or Maricin) will do the trick, I respectfully suggest it wouldn’t. Sam Pollock used to say that the team that got the best player won the trade – and adding on ‘filler’ in an attempt to sweeten the offer won’t do it. In the NHL you can’t trade a dollar for four quarters and think you came out even – you didn’t.

However, if Klefbom were part of the deal you might have something – but this goes back to my contention that if Edmonton wants to make a move they must part with one of their top 6 guys.

Philly is going to dump/move/buyout Briere, and that clears up much of the logjam they have at center (Giroux, Couturier, Schenn, and Briere fighting over the top 3 slots). Unless they get back a stud D-man or a top 4 pick in the draft, I don’t see them moving either Schenn or Couturier.

@BurningSensation
Again, these are hilarious points of argument. Sweet you tube video, have you seen the one where Gagner ties Gretz’s record with an 8 point night?

Nice to here he get no powerplay time, it sounds like his coach really trusts him in offensive situations.

He’s four years younger and has “room to grow”. Man, good thing “room to grow” is such an important stat people look at when determining how good a player currently is. Also nice to hear 24 years old is the mark where you have no more room to grow. That is it for the kid, he’s peaked.

@DSF
I don’t know or care where you’re getting info, but he was fourth on the team in tough competition, so who was ahead of him, no centres? And those are a bunch of hypotheticals all so you can prove that maybe one player is possibly better in an area than the other? That is rock solid.

Finally if you are both trying to tell me that Couturier is a better two way centre than Gagner, you are wasting your breath because that’s WHY I WANT HIM ON THE OILERS! Being great defensively is super duper, and I agree that he is, but he’s not as skilled which is where / why the trade would/ could benefit both teams. We take an offensive dip on a player that all Philly media says needs to play with skill in order to put up points, and they need more skill, not on their third checking line mind you. Stop looking at this as a one for one trade, it is not. Each player has something the other CURRENTLY doesn’t, but something that each team has in spades and needs to switch up to be more balanced. If it’s crazy, fine it’s crazy, sounds like Gags isn’t going anywhere anyway. Moreover, I don’t even like Gags as a player, but I think I’m being pretty realistic with what he brings to the table here. He is by no means a terrible player. In fact he’s a very good player, just not on a team CURRENTLY built the way the Oilers are.

Leaving aside all the other stuff for a moment (because so far none of the hard stats you asked for have been refuted, or even addressed), there is nothing that Gagner brings to the table that Philly needs.

Giroux is their offensive superstar and a lock as their #1 center. Couturier and Schenn bring both offense (Schenn) and defense (especially Couturier). So why would the Flyers want a slow, one-way defensive liability who gets outscored by the bucket at even strength like Gagner?

Then there is their contract situation (Gagner is a fail vs Couturier and his ELC), the fact that Couturier matches up well against the divisions top big pivots as a sophmore (anyt coach to put Gagner out against Malkin in the D-zone would lose his job), and I can see exactly zero reason why Philly would have anything to do with Gagner.

Gagner is on the track to become the next Scott Gomez (minus the decent ppg seasons), so maybe Sather wants him.

27 point record high is not “bringing offence”. You are right though, why would Philly want Gagner, I don’t think they’d let Couturier go for just Gagner. But Gagner and Monahan, or Nichuskinen? Well that’s a different story now isn’t it.

A proven 40+ point guy on your second scoring line is better than any ‘potential’ ceiling. Philly has a very simple problem in that they don’t score enough, i.e. they are lacking skill guys. They have the two way guys in spades. Especially if they picked up another one like Monahan.

So why wouldn’t you want a team with two scoring lines, move Schenn to the shut down role on the third line since Brier is gone.

You are also right that Gagner will cost more, but he’s essentially replacing the offence Brier lost. The guy dipped, whereas Gagner has only gotten stronger in ppg, especially after this season. I’m not sending Gagner out to shut down the Malkins and Crosby’s, I’m sending him out there to chew up the Suters and the Callahans.

You can throw all the opinion at me you want, but the one thing you can’t argue with is Gagner’s consistent point totals, something Philly lacks outside of Giroux. If I want defence I’ll hire a defenceman. But if I want someone to put it in the back of the net, then Gagner’s six year point totals paints a pretty solid picture.

Finally, just like all Philly media points to Couturier needing to play with skill to contribute offensively, so to does Gagner have to play with 2 – way minded guys to be better offensively. You think his defensive numbers might have something to do with playing on a line with Yak and Hemsky? A rookie and one of the worst two way wingers on the Oilers? hmmm.

And why do you think Gagner is slow? He’s quick as hell.

My point is that you have this opinion and view of Gagner that just isn’t true.

“A proven 40+ point guy on your second scoring line is better than any ‘potential’ ceiling”

Seriously? You’d rather have a guy who can’t win face-offs, has the ice tilt the wrong way, mediocre offense (cuz 40 points is pretty ‘meh’, and 5 years of 40 points is VERY ‘meh’), and gets destroyed by talented opponents, than a high end prospect like Mikhail Grigerenko?

As a Flames fan I PRAY that the Oilers sign Gagner long-long-long term and give him a NMC. That would be AWESOME!

They have the same face off percentage! And 6 years of 40 + points is not by any means meh. Now that you say you’re a flames fan it’s alllll making sense. You could use some 40+ point guys. PS, Gagner got more points than anyone on your team last year including Iginla. And lo and behold, he would have been 3rd in scoring on the entire Flyers team, with a better plus minus than any of the top line guys, and a better plus minus than Couturier, who faced only marginally more difficult competition than Gagner did.

Your ideas of what counts in hockey are some of the worst Ive seen posted on this site.

And as I Flames fan, I know you love signing your players long term all with no movement clauses, but Oilers management is a bit smarter than that. And that is so, so sad because our management has been HOOORRRIble for years.

Your opinions and hockey sense, like the team you cheer for, are irrelevant and completely not worth talking about. Good luck at the draft, you’ll need every bit of it not to go off the board and pick another Jankowski.

I will guarantee you that the majority of NHL players get called a “joke” by other NHL players on a daily basis. I will also guarantee they get called a lot worse. Nice call with the handicapped comment. Come on.

Your a Flames fan ! You traded two corner stones for a “trunk full of dong” And the third one is retiring for the same return. This is Oilersnation and there’s a reason no one shops FlamesNation as its embarrassing so STFU !

As an Oilers fan I get a kick out of folks who have their own Nation but don’t have the support. The Nation sites would be a lot cooler if folks supported your own team there. Maybe the Oilers fan would help out your embarrassment of support as it truly does suck … There you have it dude.

The Oilers have been ‘rebuilding’ since they dealt Pronger in 2006, and you finished an entire point ahead of Calgary this year. 7 years of futility and Oilers fans still haven’t spit the bus load of dongs out.

I get it, you’re a rival fan who hates and undervalues Gagner. But really, your case is weak.

They have the same face off percentage

Couturier:43.94%
Gagner: 43.86%

Not that face-off percentages make a big difference. if a player takes 20 face-offs in a game and wins 52% (a good percentage) thats 10.4 wins. If another player takes 20 face-offs and wins 42% (bad) that’s 8.4 wins. Fairly marginal stuff.

Sam Gagner was -6 on a team with goals for/against of -9
Sean Couturier was -8 on a team with goals for/against of -8

For the record Gagner was +5 last season when his team was -27

Gagner pro rates points to 65
Couturier pro rates points to 27

I know Gagner is older than Couturier. I am in fact a big fan of Couturier but it is fairly obvious that he most likely will just be a third line center. Gagner is a good second line center. He’s not the fastest but if you think he’s slow then you aren’t watching or aren’t intelligent. Couturier, by the way has always been known for skating not being one of his strong suits.

It’s just my opinion but I think Gagners days of 40 point seasons are behind him and he will hover in the 55-60 range. I also know that players don’t peak at 24 and I wouldn’t be surprised if he becomes satisfactory at defence.

You are missing all of the key stuff for evaluating players as points and FO% are only going to tell part of the story.

In the 2013 season Gagner’s +/-60On was -1.02, off was -.37. Gagner is costing the Oilers by being on the ice, despite his ’40 pts’. He is getting strong linemates, faces weaker competition, gets cozy zone starts and is getting his head kicked in. The Oilers have even tried hiding him on the wing (where his defensive deficiencies are less glaring), but the stats show Gagner is actually getting worse, not better. A team with a screaming need for a scoring center has determined that whatever Gagner is, he isn’t a good scoring center. If he can’t be a #1 or #2, and he can’t do the checking job of being a #3 or #4, you have run out of spots to put Mr 40pts.

In contrast, Couturier has weak linemates, gets tough zone starts, faces tougher competition, and is driving the play. Couturier has in particular showed that he has the skill-set to check the elite (again, see my previous posting for the link to his complete advanced stat line – including how the elite players like Malkin fare against him)

Factor in that he is younger, cheaper, bigger, and I see no reason why Gagner is even in the conversation as a trade asset for Couturier.

The best thing the Oilers could do is flip Gagner for ANYTHING.

What they will do however is re-sign him to a 4-5 year deal for North of $4.5M a season, making him untradeable, and locking in the mediocrity for another generation.

Having Gagner signed at 4.5M per season for 5 years is the type of scenario that keeps me awake at night. I wasn’t kidding when I wrote earlier that he was an overpay last season. Sam’s value is no better then a 2nd round draft.

Last season he’s playing for the biggest contract of his career and he flat-out stunk most nights. We 18-20M more in his pocket every Oiler fan will despise him by the time his contract expires.

Sam Gagner would fetch a mid first rounder and a good prospect IF he was traded for non-NHL talent. Want to know why I suspect this?

Turris fetched David Rundblad (first rounder) and a second round draft pick

Andrew Cogliano fetched a second round draft pick

Cody Hodgson fetched Zack Kassian. Both former first rounders.

Lots of Gagner hate going on. I would be the first to trade Gagner while his trade value is at its peak. I would take Couturier over Gagner 7 days a week. But to say Gagner would only fetch a second round pick at best is laughable. Gagner is in the same category of the aforementioned players.

To Burning Sensation…I agree that Philly would not trade Schenn or Couturier for Gagner plus the 7th… but I like Schenn better in order for a deal to be discussed.

If there was a trade deal like this, I like both or either kids to be with the Oilers, but in my opinion, Schenn or Couturier do not warrant a trade involving Hall, RNH, Ebs, Yakupov or J. Schultz…period.

I would look at MPS or Harty to be more in line with say Gernat…in a package… but these two young Oilers also do not offer Philly any real upgrade either.

Philly has the centres in depth…with Talbot too…so the Oilers may have to involve Klefbom (which wont be even considered either by the Oil.

Here’s the rub, Philly won’t trade a guy like Couturier (or B.Schenn) without thinking at some level that they are winning the deal. Unless one of the big six is involved there just isn’t a reason for Philly to think that moving out Couturier (or Schenn) has made them any better.

For the Oilers, just about any deal that sends away Gagner will make them better (addition by subtraction, Gagner simply bleeds possession when he is on the ice), but I think they need to set their sites on more realistic returns for him, like a 2nd rnd pick.

The idea that Gagner would get a 2nd round pick in return is laughable. Douglas Murray was traded for two 2nd round draft picks prior to the deadline this year, for comparison.

If the Oilers ever acquired Couturier it would be perfect for them because they would have (hopefully) replaced Horcoff with a future better player. If they acquire Couturier by trading Gagner they have caused a bigger problem by trading a prototypical 2nd line center for a prototypical 3rd line center and would be worse off.

If the argument is that Couturier is bigger and therefore more effective I’m not buying it. Couturier has had considerably less penalty minutes in Junior and the NHL and is absolutely not a physical player.

If the ONLY thing you looked at was their ppg production you might have a case, but there is way more going on than just how many goals and assists they produce.

Couturier has demonstrated (at a precociously young age) that he can responsibly defend the elite (see the post earlier re: Couturier v Malkin).

Gagner has demonstrated that despite getting candy ice-time, excellent linemates and favourable zone starts that he simply can’t do the job.

Couturier was by far the best player on his junior team and was a possible candidate to go 1st overall until he got sick in his draft year (mono if I recall correctly). Gagner’s stats were floated by an excellent Knights team (with among others, Patrick Kane).

If you were a GM and someone offered you a soft, not-fast, skill pivot who couldn’t win draws or post high-end offense, and who bled out possessions, would you be interested at any price?

Gagner is pure poison. His stats make him look like a decent player, but the underlying stats show that he definitely isn’t.