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Actually, I am pretty sure that is the late Fumio Toyoda, who was my instructor's instructor way back when. His picture was replaced with someone else's in later editions, probably because he left Tohei and started his own organization.

For the function of fascia ( including tendons and ligaments) and transmission of energy through the fascia watch this video, etc

Not quite. For example cut one rubber band and watch what happens to the tensegrity structure ... if ones arm is severed do the legs fall off? Not quite.

Also, note that the paper referenced speaks to signaling pathways (still not solidly established) and nothing about load bearing. Granted fascia does bear loads (like holding ones organs in place, etc) but in primarily static modes. I would be more open to entertain ideas about how fluids acting incompressibly transmit force but it leaves one to wonder what is the 'pipe' and take note of the required properties of said 'pipe' when under pressure.

Not to derail the thread but if fascia is held up as a component of aiki it requires much firmer evidence.

Perhaps we should delay the 'how' of aiki until the 'what' of aiki is settled a bit more -particularly if one wishes the list the functions of fascia amongst the hows.

Last edited by Rob Watson : 04-09-2010 at 08:31 PM.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Not quite. For example cut one rubber band and watch what happens to the tensegrity structure ... if ones arm is severed do the legs fall off? Not quite.

Also, note that the paper referenced speaks to signaling pathways (still not solidly established) and nothing about load bearing. Granted fascia does bear loads (like holding ones organs in place, etc) but in primarily static modes. I would be more open to entertain ideas about how fluids acting incompressibly transmit force but it leaves one to wonder what is the 'pipe' and take note of the required properties of said 'pipe' when under pressure.

Not to derail the thread but if fascia is held up as a component of aiki it requires much firmer evidence.

Perhaps we should delay the 'how' of aiki until the 'what' of aiki is settled a bit more -particularly if one wishes the list the functions of fascia amongst the hows.

One of the things I've watched for many years is how the legends and theories have grown unchecked. The whole "fascia" thing has developed a life of its own, once the term "fascia" made its way into the jargon back in the mid-1990's (and yeah, I've listened to various people swear that they came into it based on their own brilliant understanding). My suggestion is that people stop theorizing about how "fascia" plays a role in these things until they get a better idea. These posts are archived, after all.

The schematics and freeze-dried photos of fascia have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation. Fascia having its own motile functions has very little to do with it, also. Instead of theorizing because there's a keyboard handy, maybe it's better to spend some time finding info and practicing.

Cutting to the chase... most of the fascia discussions are simply off-center, as Rob is gently trying to point out.

At the moment, there is some discussion on QiJin about the advantages of these skills and how they give an advantage in martial-arts.... but now some people are beginning to see that if they show everyone how to do these things, the advantage can disappear. If nothing else, there are levels of these skills and by showing them beyond a basic level (e.g., on video) someone moderately knowledgeable may learn a trick that they didn't know before.

What is this? 1656 Japan?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

And for those who blindly insist that aiki = internal strength = structure, not the slightest shred of proof that Ueshiba ever considered this to be aiki.

--------------------------

Except the whole jo trick thing, and the push test with Tenryu. Some people may insist, and you're free to disagree, but they are hardly insisting blindly.

As well as the many references to how Shioda and others trained with push-testing and breath training, and the push tests mentioned in the fighting spirit of Japan with an aiki-jujutsu teacher and the use of center. You could also lump in solo training, breath training with questions of push testing and still come up with an interesting list of suspects!!
As far as fascia being involved in the training and just what came into who's jargon and when is concerned it is worth noting: Mochizuki's mention of it in an AJ interview, Richard Kim (student of Yoshida Kotaro Daito ryu and Yanagi ryu) discussion of breath training in an interview (I believe from the early 80's) and the results it had on the skin and bone thickening among adepts. It was highlighted by a story he told of one of his training partners having his arm broken and the doc's noting the thickness of the bone, I didn't care about the story as much as I found these interviews and references "cross checks" for other sources mentioning the same things. Case in point; I found Mochizuki's comments and his calling fascia, "long muscle" in the written AJ's from the early nineties particularly interesting, since I first heard the term used by a Japanese Daito ryu shihan. He was discussing breath and the effects it had on "long muscle" and then being corrected by an American physical therapist who told him the proper term was fascia. There was a reference to breath training and fascia as well in a book on DR published in Europe. There was another reference somewhere -I think it was in Takeda Tokimune's in-house circulars in the late seventies for students in reference to aiki-in-yo ho and how it effected the tissue in connecting the arms and legs to center.
So here we see references to skin, bones, and fascia from different teachers...all connected to who and what art? Since they were discussing it in interviews in the 80s (late in their careers after they were famous) -how long had they been training it? And in that time and place is it another coincidence that they were also known for unusual power?

I also found Sagawa's decision to bring up and then deny breath-training note worthy, if not fascinating, as I know he taught breath-power as a specific training to at least one teacher.

Again, all these references are by whom? Should we consider it coincidence that the Japanese teachers who were mentioning it and discussing it were oddly enough men well known for unusual skills and unusual power? Is that worth our attention?
It seems odd to insist the knowledge of this stuff is everywhere in Asia- then not acknowledge the various sources of it being discussed and taught by....Asian teachers!
The one interesting and overriding factor in all of this, is that when we trace the routes of aiki back to the greats in the art- why do we run into these stories of solo training, push-testing and breath power?
And why it seems that over-and-over, these men were just like us. Among their peers -only one would listen as hundreds of others got lost in waza.The more things change.....
Dan

It is my understanding that O Sensei's use of the term 'Aiki' stemmed from his Omoto Kyo experiences; i.e. a mystical concept that suggests some kind of union or coming together of oneself with the universe. It is interesting to attempt to define 'Aiki' from a martial viewpoint, but it is also worth considering that the Founder himself might have defined it primarily from a religious or spiritual viewpoint.

It is my understanding that O Sensei's use of the term 'Aiki' stemmed from his Omoto Kyo experiences; i.e. a mystical concept that suggests some kind of union or coming together of oneself with the universe. It is interesting to attempt to define 'Aiki' from a martial viewpoint, but it is also worth considering that the Founder himself might have defined it primarily from a religious or spiritual viewpoint.

That would be at odds; not only with his many quotes about martial use- including many comments about his atemi being deadly- but also from his actions; including going to judo dojos and dislocating someone's hip with an atemi, and his training of military people-including ultra right wing types. Were his message meant to be purely spiritual he would never have lived his entire life in...martial arts! You would also never have known his name in the first place. It was his martial prowess that gave him fame, and not his spiritual beliefs, which none of his students ever claimed to truly understand.
I think all the spiritual jargon was greatly misunderstood and among some people in Aikido it is become something of a new age, animistic, add your own quasy-spiritual belief, add-on at your pleasure, type deal that it never really was meant to be in the first place.

Perhaps we should delay the 'how' of aiki until the 'what' of aiki is settled a bit more -particularly if one wishes the list the functions of fascia amongst the hows.

The understanding of how something works leads to better insight to what something is. The using of archaic words from a culture most of us have no idea about and definitions that have morphed over centuries of use is not helpful nor is the use of individual personal definitions. Using medical knowledge of how the body works provides a common base to define the term "Aiki".

A word is worth a word, a picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a million words and actually experience is priceless.

So on a medium where actually experience is not possible why not use that which is closest to actually experience, video?

Why wouldn't those who know the most be willing to post video explaining what they know.

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

At the moment, there is some discussion on QiJin about the advantages of these skills and how they give an advantage in martial-arts.... but now some people are beginning to see that if they show everyone how to do these things, the advantage can disappear.....

Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:

That being said, I'm not opposed to anyone I've worked with discussing basics, etc., in an attempt to delineate a viable definition of "aiki". I think it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Why are you opposed to anyone you have not worked with trying to discussing basics?

One of the things I've watched for many years is how the legends and theories have grown unchecked. The whole "fascia" thing has developed a life of its own, once the term "fascia" made its way into the jargon back in the mid-1990's (and yeah, I've listened to various people swear that they came into it based on their own brilliant understanding). My suggestion is that people stop theorizing about how "fascia" plays a role in these things until they get a better idea. These posts are archived, after all.

The schematics and freeze-dried photos of fascia have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation. Fascia having its own motile functions has very little to do with it, also. Instead of theorizing because there's a keyboard handy, maybe it's better to spend some time finding info and practicing.

Cutting to the chase... most of the fascia discussions are simply off-center, as Rob is gently trying to point out.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Wow, did not expect my fascia comment to explode into such a detailed conversation. My point was simply that fascia is a component that helps distribute the load and not that it was the lone bearer of it, and I do not think that a single energy 'pipe' is established in it. How all that works is well above my pay grade

My network analogy was simply an attempt to show that incoming energy does not have to be channeled in a single linear manner - maybe it was not such a good analogy for aiki after

My network analogy was simply an attempt to show that incoming energy does not have to be channeled in a single linear manner - maybe it was not such a good analogy for aiki after

It is a good analogy.
The fascia is a network of connective tissue that involves all parts of the body. Modern medical research shows the body uses this network as a means of distributing incoming and outgoing energy, stresses and loads throughout the body. It also shows that it is a mechanical communications network and possibly a electrical communications network that supplements the nervous system.

As a sailor, I can relate to the points in this video - and I m sure there are similar points in aiki, just not sure how to express it all though.

Greg

Does understanding how the sails and stays work using the incoming energy of the wind and distributing it throughout the sailboat causing the boat to move through the water (outgoing energy) make you a better sailor?

The vast Universe!
The Way of Aiki to become
The light of all mankind
Opening all the world.

Put the active principle (yo) into the right hand
Turn the left into the passive (in)
And so guide the adversary.

With "Eiiii" cut him down!
That enemy that lurks within
Instruct him with "yah"
Guide him with "Toh".

Pour your spirit and heart
Into daily technical training
To approach the many through a single principle
This is "The Way of the Fighting Man".

Always and always
Pour yourself into technical training
To face the multitude as if it were one
Is the Way of the Shugo-sha.

First master the techniques of Aiki
The way of the Gods
Then no enemy will ever attack.

Though we may honor it
We can never praise enough
The godly technique of the Way of Aiki
The godly technique of the small gate.

The purification techniques (misogi-waza)
I have learned from God and Revelation
Aiki is built by the god(s).

Masakatsu and Agatsu
By Aiki with the spirit of the Godly Parent
Save and invigorate
Your own body and soul.

The Way of the Gods!
Give in to the life of the Universe of
Heaven and Earth
Thus draw nearer and nearer
To a spirit who serves the Godhead.

The Way of our Gods!
The clear and those red and white
The Way of Aiki is one of the divine techniques
To which only a narrow gate does lead.

Mobilize all (your) powers through Aiki
Build a beautiful world
And a secure peace

Even the most powerful human being
has a limited sphere of strength.
Draw him outside of that sphere
and into your own, and his strength will dissipate.

"You must realize this!
Aiki cannot be captured with the brush
Nor can it be expressed with the mouth
And so it is that one must proceed
to realization."

Blend with (ki-musubi) the
Universe of Heaven and Earth (tenchi)
Stand in the center (of all)
In your heart take up the stance
Of "The Way of the Mountain Echo." (Yamabiko)

Blend the ki within the self (ki-musubi)
Stand erect in the very center
Polish the spirit
mind (kokoro)
"The Way of the Mountain Echo".

In the self-mind standing always
In the very center of it I do live
The stance (kamae) of Love is
"The Way of the Mountain Echo.

Aiki!
The root of the power of love
A love that must grow ever broader.

This world is built up
Of living-life (iki-inochi) of the breath of life (iki-inichi) and the
saving power of the Universal (iki-inochi)
All spinning and flourishing
The jewel-like Aiki of the Spirit (tama-no-aiki).

Left and Right
Cut or parry
Discard all thought of them
The human spirit must rush instantly in!

Aiki!
A way so difficult to analyse
(But one needs only to) follow
The natural rotations of the
Heavens.

Aiki is the power of harmony between all things
Polish it ceaselessly
You people of the Way.

The honored techniques of Ki
May manifest the spirit of the Great Snake
Or that of Bees
To make such spirits (tama) appear
Is the Way of Takemusu.

The precious techniques of Ki!
They, the spirits (tama) does subdue and pacify
IN these techniques of misogi purification
Please direct us, Oh gods of Heaven and Earth!

In these teachings listen most
To the rhythm of the strike and thrust
To train in the basics (omote)
Is to practice the very secrets of the art.

Q: Did O Sensei ever define Aiki clearer than he did in his doka?

and; as per this thread; At some point descriptions of a thing, and or it's properties, methods or connections are a workable 'definition', are they not? I was puzzling at that prior comment.

I think all the spiritual jargon was greatly misunderstood and among some people in Aikido it is become something of a new age, animistic, add your own quasi-spiritual belief, add-on at your pleasure, type deal that it never really was meant to be in the first place.
Dan

i like the network analogy. take it a bit further, when you touch another person, you establish a network link between your network cloud with the other person network cloud, so now the information can flow both way through the connection. so depends on how good you are, you can reach into the other person network and manipulate the information (read energy flow).

Are we talking about aiki, or really kinky sex?
Sorry. joke... but it is a clever analogy. or...after thinking.... is it...an analogy?
I mean, aren't we ultimately networked atoms, molecules, cells, electrical and chemical energy, nerves, organs, software/body patterns?. I can definitely see how the esoteric terms/phrases/philosophies stuff starts to creep in here when you try to talk about *everything*. The network thing is a neat idea, guys. thanks.

Well, no, but people in some arts actually compete in martial arts tournaments, etc., and while it's not as life-threatening in a tournament as it was in feudal Japan, you still don't want to rush out and give away all your knowledge/skills if they're giving you an advantage, right? I.e., there's nothing wrong with people being careful not to give away their knowledge and skills to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who demands it.

Besides, a lot of Aikido people are in this I.S. pickle simply because Ueshiba didn't teach the skills openly... and he's not from 1656 Japan.

Or would you rather use an explanation that the ki of the boat pushes against the ki of the air to overcome the ki of the earth to move the boat? Thus we have aiki.
David

I know you are being tongue-in-cheek, but I think about it this way (yes thats' M 2 C):
the words and thoughts come to us through time, from a different place, social context, and way of thinking of...almost everything. it is a different way of mapping -the same physical things- to descriptions/view of how and why it works. I do not think there are always one-to-one correspondences of concepts from the world-view of one to the other. Isn't there that saying; "Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet."