Re: Nikon 'Picture Controls' - help wanted

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens <> said:
:
: > Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: > incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
: > form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
: > brightness, saturation, hue etc.
: >
: > Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: > variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: > create, edit and save presets of their own.
:
: Yup!
:
: > I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: > really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: > reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: > correct?
: >
: > 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
: > the camera.
:
: Correct.
:
: > 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: > creates JPG or TIFF images.
:
: JPG only
:
: > 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
: > by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
:
: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG

That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does it. A
Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one that you
select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW mode you
can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a suitably
aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you selected.
The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor with a
lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in principle,
apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the style that
was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied. Canon's
own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing capability
and applies style changes to RAW images only.

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On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:03:25 -0900, (Floyd L. Davidson)
wrote:
: Robert Coe <> wrote:
: >On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
: ><savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
: >: On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens <> said:
: >:
: >: > Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
: >: > incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
: >: > form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
: >: > brightness, saturation, hue etc.
: >: >
: >: > Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
: >: > variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
: >: > create, edit and save presets of their own.
: >:
: >: Yup!
: >:
: >: > I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
: >: > really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
: >: > reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
: >: > correct?
: >: >
: >: > 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
: >: > the camera.
: >:
: >: Correct.
: >:
: >: > 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
: >: > creates JPG or TIFF images.
: >:
: >: JPG only
:
: And TIFF also.

If you say so. I wasn't presuming to quibble over the factual accuracy of the
Duck's comments. He's a Nikon user, and I'm not.

: >: > 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
: >: > by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
: >:
: >: Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG
:
: That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
: shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
: the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
: camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
: settins are saved as Exif data.
:
: >That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does it.
:
: Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
: exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
: generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
: Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
: selected option.

I don't doubt the truth of that observation, but I guess I do question its
relevance. We're discussing the Nikon "picture controls" feature and its Canon
counterpart. White balance, at least in the Canon world, is something
altogether different, with a range of values that don't overlap those in
picture styles in any material way. I'd be surprised if that weren't true in
the Nikon world as well.

: >A Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one that
: >you select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
: >mode you
:
: But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
: the RAW file.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "applied to". I could live with
"saved along side of", but I think it's a distinction without a difference.

: >can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a suitably
: >aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you selected.
:
: True, because the settings actually are applied to a
: camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
: available option).
:
: >The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor with a
: >lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in principle,
: >apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the style that
: >was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.
:
: That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
: generating the JPEG is not trivial.

Which is why I save RAW files instead of converted JPEGs.

: >Canon's own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
: >capability and applies style changes to RAW images only.
:
: Same as all others...
:
: Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
: are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
: amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
: example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
: literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.

True if you're talking about JPEGs, but not if you're talking about RAW. In a
Canon RAW image sharpening is applied non-destructively and is only
hypothetically set in the camera. I think the camera keeps track of the level
of sharpening you've selected, but sharpening is applied only in the editor.
Same with noise reduction.

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On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
> Robert Coe <> wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> : On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens <> said:
>> :
>> : > Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
>> : > incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take the
>> : > form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening, contrast,
>> : > brightness, saturation, hue etc.
>> : >
>> : > Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
>> : > variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
>> : > create, edit and save presets of their own.
>> :
>> : Yup!
>> :
>> : > I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
>> : > really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
>> : > reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
>> : > correct?
>> : >
>> : > 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW image in
>> : > the camera.
>> :
>> : Correct.
>> :
>> : > 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
>> : > creates JPG or TIFF images.
>> :
>> : JPG only
>
> And TIFF also.
>
>> : > 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be used
>> : > by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
>> :
>> : Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG
>
> That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
> shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
> the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
> camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
> settins are saved as Exif data.
>
>> That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does it. A
>
> Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
> exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
> generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
> Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
> selected option.
>
>> Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one that you
>> select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW mode you
>
> But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
> the RAW file.
>
>> can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a suitably
>> aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you selected.
>
> True, because the settings actually are applied to a
> camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
> available option).
>
>> The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor with a
>> lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in principle,
>> apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the style that
>> was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.
>
> That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
> generating the JPEG is not trivial.
>
>> Canon's
>> own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing capability
>> and applies style changes to RAW images only.
>
> Same as all others...
>
> Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
> are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
> amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
> example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
> literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.
>

Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
and found it really slows down the frame rate.

On 11/17/2012 8:35 AM, PeterN wrote:
> On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>> Robert Coe <> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> : On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens <>
>>> said:
>>> :
>>> : > Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
>>> : > incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take
>>> the
>>> : > form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening,
>>> contrast,
>>> : > brightness, saturation, hue etc.
>>> : >
>>> : > Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
>>> : > variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
>>> : > create, edit and save presets of their own.
>>> :
>>> : Yup!
>>> :
>>> : > I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that nobody
>>> : > really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
>>> : > reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
>>> : > correct?
>>> : >
>>> : > 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW
>>> image in
>>> : > the camera.
>>> :
>>> : Correct.
>>> :
>>> : > 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
>>> : > creates JPG or TIFF images.
>>> :
>>> : JPG only
>>
>> And TIFF also.
>>
>>> : > 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be
>>> used
>>> : > by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
>>> :
>>> : Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG
>>
>> That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
>> shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
>> the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
>> camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
>> settins are saved as Exif data.
>>
>>> That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does
>>> it. A
>>
>> Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
>> exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
>> generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
>> Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
>> selected option.
>>
>>> Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one
>>> that you
>>> select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
>>> mode you
>>
>> But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
>> the RAW file.
>>
>>> can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a
>>> suitably
>>> aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you
>>> selected.
>>
>> True, because the settings actually are applied to a
>> camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
>> available option).
>>
>>> The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor
>>> with a
>>> lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in
>>> principle,
>>> apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the
>>> style that
>>> was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.
>>
>> That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
>> generating the JPEG is not trivial.
>>
>>> Canon's
>>> own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
>>> capability
>>> and applies style changes to RAW images only.
>>
>> Same as all others...
>>
>> Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
>> are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
>> amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
>> example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
>> literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.
>>
>
> Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
> and found it really slows down the frame rate.
>

"Floyd L. Davidson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> PeterN <> wrote:
>>On 11/17/2012 8:35 AM, PeterN wrote:
>>> On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>>>> Robert Coe <> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
>>>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>> : On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens <>
>>>>> said:
>>>>> :
>>>>> : > Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
>>>>> : > incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take
>>>>> the
>>>>> : > form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening,
>>>>> contrast,
>>>>> : > brightness, saturation, hue etc.
>>>>> : >
>>>>> : > Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
>>>>> : > variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
>>>>> : > create, edit and save presets of their own.
>>>>> :
>>>>> : Yup!
>>>>> :
>>>>> : > I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that
>>>>> nobody
>>>>> : > really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
>>>>> : > reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
>>>>> : > correct?
>>>>> : >
>>>>> : > 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW
>>>>> image in
>>>>> : > the camera.
>>>>> :
>>>>> : Correct.
>>>>> :
>>>>> : > 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
>>>>> : > creates JPG or TIFF images.
>>>>> :
>>>>> : JPG only
>>>>
>>>> And TIFF also.
>>>>
>>>>> : > 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be
>>>>> used
>>>>> : > by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
>>>>> :
>>>>> : Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG
>>>>
>>>> That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
>>>> shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
>>>> the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
>>>> camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
>>>> settins are saved as Exif data.
>>>>
>>>>> That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does
>>>>> it. A
>>>>
>>>> Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
>>>> exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
>>>> generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
>>>> Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
>>>> selected option.
>>>>
>>>>> Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one
>>>>> that you
>>>>> select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
>>>>> mode you
>>>>
>>>> But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
>>>> the RAW file.
>>>>
>>>>> can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a
>>>>> suitably
>>>>> aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you
>>>>> selected.
>>>>
>>>> True, because the settings actually are applied to a
>>>> camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
>>>> available option).
>>>>
>>>>> The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor
>>>>> with a
>>>>> lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in
>>>>> principle,
>>>>> apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the
>>>>> style that
>>>>> was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.
>>>>
>>>> That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
>>>> generating the JPEG is not trivial.
>>>>
>>>>> Canon's
>>>>> own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
>>>>> capability
>>>>> and applies style changes to RAW images only.
>>>>
>>>> Same as all others...
>>>>
>>>> Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
>>>> are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
>>>> amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
>>>> example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
>>>> literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
>>> and found it really slows down the frame rate.
>>>
>>
>>I meant D800,
>
> I pretty much always set that to OFF, which isn't really off as such.
> OFF restricts it to ISO 1600 and above though, and is a Lower-Than-Low
> amount.
>
> I'm not a bit surprised if it slows things down! Those 45-50Mb data
> files take a lot of processing to do anything to them.
>
> --
> Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Thanks for your response. Clearly I will have to change my shooting style.
I was playing with the long exposure NR, while bracketing for HDR. The wait
for processing was interminable.
The in camera NR does a pretty good job, much better than in Camera Raw.
I will play with various NR programs and see which works best for me.

Peter <> wrote:
> "Floyd L. Davidson" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>> PeterN <> wrote:
>>>On 11/17/2012 8:35 AM, PeterN wrote:
>>>> On 11/16/2012 1:03 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
>>>>> Robert Coe <> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:34:14 -0800, Savageduck
>>>>>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>> : On 2012-11-15 19:00:18 -0800, Eric Stevens <>
>>>>>> said:
>>>>>> :
>>>>>> : > Starting at about the time of the D300 Nikon many Nikon cameras
>>>>>> : > incorporate what Nikon refer to as 'Picture Controls'. These take
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> : > form of presets for variables for such things as sharpening,
>>>>>> contrast,
>>>>>> : > brightness, saturation, hue etc.
>>>>>> : >
>>>>>> : > Not only do Nikon provide various preset combinations of these
>>>>>> : > variables (Standard, Neutral, Vivid etc) but the user is able to
>>>>>> : > create, edit and save presets of their own.
>>>>>> :
>>>>>> : Yup!
>>>>>> :
>>>>>> : > I have now found myself in a discussion where I suspect that
>>>>>> nobody
>>>>>> : > really knows the full truth of the situation. Manuals and various
>>>>>> : > reference books have proved far from helpful. Is the following
>>>>>> : > correct?
>>>>>> : >
>>>>>> : > 1. Picture Control has no effect on the formation of the RAW
>>>>>> image in
>>>>>> : > the camera.
>>>>>> :
>>>>>> : Correct.
>>>>>> :
>>>>>> : > 2. Picture Control is taken into account and used when the camera
>>>>>> : > creates JPG or TIFF images.
>>>>>> :
>>>>>> : JPG only
>>>>>
>>>>> And TIFF also.
>>>>>
>>>>>> : > 3. Picture Control settings are saved with RAW images and may be
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> : > by suitably aware software when loading RAW images for editing.
>>>>>> :
>>>>>> : Only if you are shooting RAW+JPEG
>>>>>
>>>>> That is not actually true, as they are saved even when
>>>>> shooting only NEF. Even then a JPEG is generated using
>>>>> the Picture Controls for use as a preview image on the
>>>>> camera's LCD. It is embedded in the NEF file. The
>>>>> settins are saved as Exif data.
>>>>>
>>>>>> That surprises me, because it's so different from the way Canon does
>>>>>> it. A
>>>>>
>>>>> Canon does it exactly the same as Nikon, with one small
>>>>> exception. Canon saves data for Auto White Balance
>>>>> generated by the camera regardless of the WB setting.
>>>>> Nikon saves the Auto WB settings only if Auto WB is the
>>>>> selected option.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Canon "picture style", either the default (called "Standard") or one
>>>>>> that you
>>>>>> select or create, is applied to all images, even in RAW mode. In RAW
>>>>>> mode you
>>>>>
>>>>> But it is never applied to the raw sensor data saved in
>>>>> the RAW file.
>>>>>
>>>>>> can substitute any other picture style in post-processing with a
>>>>>> suitably
>>>>>> aware photo editor; in JPEG you're (I think) stuck with whatever you
>>>>>> selected.
>>>>>
>>>>> True, because the settings actually are applied to a
>>>>> camera generated RGB image (JPEG or TIFF if that is an
>>>>> available option).
>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason I'm not sure about that last point is that a photo editor
>>>>>> with a
>>>>>> lot of JPEG editing capability (like Photoshop) could, at least in
>>>>>> principle,
>>>>>> apply substitute styles to a JPEG image, assuming it understood the
>>>>>> style that
>>>>>> was used in-camera and no destructive compression had been applied.
>>>>>
>>>>> That ain't gonna happen! Undoing what was done in
>>>>> generating the JPEG is not trivial.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Canon's
>>>>>> own editor, Digital Photo Professional, has minimal JPEG editing
>>>>>> capability
>>>>>> and applies style changes to RAW images only.
>>>>>
>>>>> Same as all others...
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that editors cannot change the same parameters that
>>>>> are set in the camera. But the editor cannot undo the
>>>>> amount of sharpening and then use a new value, as an
>>>>> example. That is difficult with regular "sharpen" and
>>>>> literally impossible if Unsharp Mask has been used.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you use in camera noise reduction on your E800? I was playing with in
>>>> and found it really slows down the frame rate.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I meant D800,
>>
>> I pretty much always set that to OFF, which isn't really off as such.
>> OFF restricts it to ISO 1600 and above though, and is a Lower-Than-Low
>> amount.
>>
>> I'm not a bit surprised if it slows things down! Those 45-50Mb data
>> files take a lot of processing to do anything to them.
>>
>> --
>> Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
>> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

> Thanks for your response. Clearly I will have to change my shooting style.
> I was playing with the long exposure NR, while bracketing for HDR. The wait
> for processing was interminable.
> The in camera NR does a pretty good job, much better than in Camera Raw.
> I will play with various NR programs and see which works best for me.

In-camera long exposure noise reduction does good noise reduction
things for long exposures that you can't do in post-processing. But
it's only active if the exposures are long enough, and if so the extra
time isn't processing, it's taking a dark exposure of the same length
in order to subtract long exposure noise inequalities.

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