much of American history has been characterized by a struggle between two historical factions among the American elite

For most of our history, American economics, culture and politics have been dominated by a New England-based Yankee aristocracy that was rooted in Puritan communitarian values, educated at the Ivies and marinated in an ethic of noblesse oblige (the conviction that those who possess wealth and power are morally bound to use it for the betterment of society). While they've done their share of damage to the notion of democracy in the name of profit (as all financial elites inevitably do), this group has, for the most part, tempered its predatory instincts with a code that valued mass education and human rights; held up public service as both a duty and an honor; and imbued them with the belief that once you made your nut, you had a moral duty to do something positive with it for the betterment of mankind. Your own legacy depended on this.

other great historical American nobility -- the plantation aristocracy of the lowland South, which has been notable throughout its 400-year history for its utter lack of civic interest, its hostility to the very ideas of democracy and human rights, its love of hierarchy, its fear of technology and progress, its reliance on brutality and violence to maintain “order,” and its outright celebration of inequality as an order divinely ordained by God.

the elites of the Deep South are descended mainly from the owners of sugar, rum and cotton plantations from Barbados -- the younger sons of the British nobility who'd farmed up the Caribbean islands, and then came ashore to the southern coasts seeking more land. Woodward described the culture they created in the crescent stretching from Charleston, SC around to New Orleans this way:

It was a near-carbon copy of the West Indian slave state these Barbadians had left behind, a place notorious even then for its inhumanity....From the outset, Deep Southern culture was based on radical disparities in wealth and power, with a tiny elite commanding total obedience and enforcing it with state-sponsored terror. Its expansionist ambitions would put it on a collision course with its Yankee rivals, triggering military, social, and political conflicts that continue to plague the United States to this day.

these elites have always feared and opposed universal literacy, public schools and libraries, and a free press. (Lind adds that they have historically been profoundly anti-technology as well, far preferring solutions that involve finding more serfs and throwing them at a problem whenever possible. Why buy a bulldozer when 150 convicts on a chain gang can grade your road instead?) Unlike the Puritan elites, who wore their wealth modestly and dedicated themselves to the common good, Southern elites sank their money into ostentatious homes and clothing and the pursuit of pleasure -- including lavish parties, games of fortune, predatory sexual conquests, and blood sports involving ritualized animal abuse spectacles.

bedub1 wrote:New England-based Yankee aristocracy that was rooted in Puritan communitarian values, educated at the Ivies and marinated in an ethic of noblesse oblige

bedub1 wrote:the plantation aristocracy of the lowland South,

I'm offended.

I was born in New Jersey and educated in Pennsylvania (not from New England or the south).I am Catholic, not Puritan or any other "newer" Christian sect.I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.I've never seen a real-life plantation.

Aristocratic mind-bending Southern plantation New England Northern Enslaver Types of the 4th Dimensions have developed the means for intergalactic space travel and will probe your children. These intergalactic gropers must be stopped!

thegreekdog wrote:I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.

What does this mean? Not "the New England type"? Ivy League is Ivy League.

(Kudos to you BTW.)

There is a distinct difference in tenor between Harvard/Yale/Dartmouth/Brown and Princeton/Cornell/Penn/Columbia. Although Princeton appears to be trying to get into the former group and Brown is sort of in its own group.

thegreekdog wrote:I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.

What does this mean? Not "the New England type"? Ivy League is Ivy League.

(Kudos to you BTW.)

There is a distinct difference in tenor between Harvard/Yale/Dartmouth/Brown and Princeton/Cornell/Penn/Columbia. Although Princeton appears to be trying to get into the former group and Brown is sort of in its own group.

And I just realized those two sentences make me sound like a jackass.

Really? Why?

You're just classifying particular objects into groups. If talking about certain intellectual circles makes you a jackass, then... Yeah, I don't get it. I guess you think some may think that doing this is... too high-brow or pretentious? It isn't, so... ?

thegreekdog wrote:I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.

What does this mean? Not "the New England type"? Ivy League is Ivy League.

(Kudos to you BTW.)

There is a distinct difference in tenor between Harvard/Yale/Dartmouth/Brown and Princeton/Cornell/Penn/Columbia. Although Princeton appears to be trying to get into the former group and Brown is sort of in its own group.

And I just realized those two sentences make me sound like a jackass.

Really? Why?

You're just classifying particular objects into groups. If talking about certain intellectual circles makes you a jackass, then... Yeah, I don't get it. I guess you think some may think that doing this is... too high-brow or pretentious? It isn't, so... ?

Sound to others like a jackass. I don't sound like a jackass to myself.

thegreekdog wrote:I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.

What does this mean? Not "the New England type"? Ivy League is Ivy League.

(Kudos to you BTW.)

There is a distinct difference in tenor between Harvard/Yale/Dartmouth/Brown and Princeton/Cornell/Penn/Columbia. Although Princeton appears to be trying to get into the former group and Brown is sort of in its own group.

And I just realized those two sentences make me sound like a jackass.

Really? Why?

You're just classifying particular objects into groups. If talking about certain intellectual circles makes you a jackass, then... Yeah, I don't get it. I guess you think some may think that doing this is... too high-brow or pretentious? It isn't, so... ?

Sound to others like a jackass. I don't sound like a jackass to myself.

Would you cheer up if jones and I drowned a bag of kittens and sent you the film and some postcards? ("Wish you were here," and all that.)

thegreekdog wrote:I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.

What does this mean? Not "the New England type"? Ivy League is Ivy League.

(Kudos to you BTW.)

There is a distinct difference in tenor between Harvard/Yale/Dartmouth/Brown and Princeton/Cornell/Penn/Columbia. Although Princeton appears to be trying to get into the former group and Brown is sort of in its own group.

And I just realized those two sentences make me sound like a jackass.

difference in tenor???

What do you mean? They select students based on their singing ability?

thegreekdog wrote:I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.

What does this mean? Not "the New England type"? Ivy League is Ivy League.

(Kudos to you BTW.)

There is a distinct difference in tenor between Harvard/Yale/Dartmouth/Brown and Princeton/Cornell/Penn/Columbia. Although Princeton appears to be trying to get into the former group and Brown is sort of in its own group.

And I just realized those two sentences make me sound like a jackass.

Really? Why?

You're just classifying particular objects into groups. If talking about certain intellectual circles makes you a jackass, then... Yeah, I don't get it. I guess you think some may think that doing this is... too high-brow or pretentious? It isn't, so... ?

He doesn't sound like a jackass.

That said... the Ivy League is pretty small group to begin with... finding additional micro-distinctions to seperate the Ivy League into three subgroups seems a bit silly to me.

Then again I didn't attend any of those schools... so I'm guessing the distinctions appear quite real to them...... in their ivy towers that is... to us peons on the ground we can't tell the difference.

thegreekdog wrote:I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.

What does this mean? Not "the New England type"? Ivy League is Ivy League.

(Kudos to you BTW.)

There is a distinct difference in tenor between Harvard/Yale/Dartmouth/Brown and Princeton/Cornell/Penn/Columbia. Although Princeton appears to be trying to get into the former group and Brown is sort of in its own group.

And I just realized those two sentences make me sound like a jackass.

difference in tenor???

What do you mean? They select students based on their singing ability?

Harvard/Yale/Dartmouth/Brown and to a lesser extent Princeton are more WASP-y, typically New England type schools.

Penn, Columbia, Cornell are less WASP-y (with some exceptions), and are not New Englandy (Penn and Columbia due to their locations and emphasis on business, Cornell due to its emphasis on science and engineering over liberal arts).

bedub1 wrote:New England-based Yankee aristocracy that was rooted in Puritan communitarian values, educated at the Ivies and marinated in an ethic of noblesse oblige

bedub1 wrote:the plantation aristocracy of the lowland South,

I'm offended.

I was born in New Jersey and educated in Pennsylvania (not from New England or the south).I am Catholic, not Puritan or any other "newer" Christian sect.I was educated at an Ivy League institution... but... well, not really the New England type.I've never seen a real-life plantation.

WEAK SAUCE!

So you feel you are among the political elite?

Seriously, are you just forgetting the whole hoopla over a Roman Catholic being elected when Kennedy came into office?

Even just looking at the past 50 years, most of the elected leaders.. never mind the folks behind the elected, do pretty much fit that mold.