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Re: AWOL v. CS 17

Originally Posted by Cedric Rhyn

There is a lot of good information in the above but I would point out that the opinion expressed by "our New Zealand friend" is based on having sailed his AWOL alongside a CS17 in very heavy weather, he is probably the only one on the planet other than the skipper of that CS17 who does have that experience. I know that there was a JW Pathfinder there that day as well, and it was not having any problems in handling the conditions either.
It may well be that there was a difference in the experience and skills of the skippers, or the amateur build standards of the three boats involved but the story I heard was pretty clear as to which boats were coping and which was not.

Cedric

One thing I left out of my story about the Small Reach Regatta is that a Pathfinder also took part in the sailing. My smaller cat ketch Lapwing was also faster than the Pathfinder but I left that out intentionally because I don't think that makes any definite conclusions about the abilities of either boat. I am an experienced sailor, familiar with the boat as well as a long time racer and know nothing about the sailor in the Pathfinder or whether he was even trying to go fast. Anecdotal evidence means very little, which is why I discounted the statement from Kiwi land that the CS was having trouble. I know sailors who singlehand a CS 20 in pretty strong wind with no trouble but that is no evidence that the average guy should try that.

I am not trying to start or even continue an argument here. What I am saying is that there is no material here from which a logical argument about the actual heavy weather qualities of these two boats can or should be made.

Re: AWOL v. CS 17

What does "having trouble" even mean?

I just watched the video above where someone pointed out how the CS was 'tippy' and had to laugh. You over sheet any light boat going to windward in a puff and and it will heel right over like that one did. So what? I wwas out sailing yesterday in 12 kts gusting to 20 on my boat, single handed and no reefs I did just the same at least once. I witnessed a heavy keelboat heel way over too. Does that mean it's tippy? What I like about my boat is that I can heel it over to where the decks are awash and it isn't on the ragged edge of stability. There's still plenty of righting moment left even when she's over on her ear, and I find that comforting.

Furthermore, I can sit my ~17 stone bulk on the rail, feet out, and never feel like the boat is going to come over on to my head. It doesn't have quite the primary stability my old Daysailer had, but for boat that weighs less than half, it's pretty impressive.

Re: AWOL v. CS 17

Just wondering if anyone has anything new to add to this comparison... especially since the EC is just coming to a close this year. I started my build and I'm now starting to second guess the choice. Wondering if I shouldn't go with a boat designed to be a little more competitive after having some of the pieces laid out in my shop, thinking now might be the best point to re-think my choice and maybe put this one on the back burner for another purpose.

"Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

Re: AWOL v. CS 17

Re: AWOL v. CS 17

Originally Posted by Mike V.

What boat are you building?

I am building a stretched Welsford Walkabout, and still plan on finishing it. My intention was to eventually have two boats built - one for the EC and another to do some family beach cruising together with the 1st boat. I will still finish the Walkabout. I really like the plans, and the purpose of the boat very much, Mr. Welsford was even kind enough to do a couple revisions for me just for the race, and it may well be the better boat, maybe at some point I will have two for the race. But after doing some reading and watching the race I'm starting to wonder if it will be fast enough. I know the EC (never done it before, just research) isn't all about sailing and speed - it's the average you can do over the full length of the race. Even thou I used to do 24-36 hr adventure racing and the paddling is by far my favorite segment in those races, I was hoping to do the EC more as a sailing race since I used to race Thistles in my forever past. Just wanting to have my daughter or son experience some of that in a new way. I've been waiting for my daughter to get a little older to do the race and she is just about the age she can do it and understand and help along the way - or my wife, her mother will allow her to do it! lol.

We already have a larger sailboat (a Halman 21), just not one for something like the EC or Texas 200. I also already have the plans for the CS17 (#374), the Walkabout and the study plans for the AWOL. I even thought about just selling the Halman since it never gets to the water because of all the softball travel my daughter does and maybe just purchase a Sea Pearl 21 - something a little easier to just day sail. Still trying to decide.

The Walkabout will be easy enough at this point to put on the back burner and finish later and start something else right now. And I really like the AWOL - started to talk to John about the AWOL when talking to him about the Walkabout. I'm now starting to wonder if it shouldn't be the one to build. My biggest concerns is how it would row in that scenario, wondering if it could be changed or made to accommodate a rowing station. In that situation the CS17 is a much better boat - not as much beam. But for some reason I like the looks of the AWOL better - it just looks faster. It also makes me wonder if anyone has any ideas that could be incorporated into a AWOL build to make it more competitive in the EC? Just wondering - I have an indoor softball league going on right now for my daughter so I will be out of the shop mostly for the next 2 months doing very little so this is the time to decide I thought. Otherwise I will probably be going forward with the CS17. The combination of Walkabout and CS17 in the driveway eventually would be an interesting mix I think.

Any thoughts are welcome, thank you.

"Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up.” by Henry David Thoreau

Re: AWOL v. CS 17

Some Core Sound sailors in the EC have added Chutes of one sort or another. CS17s placed high in the race this year, and a CS 20 was third boat overall and 2d monohull. In the EC, at least, the Core Sounds are proven boats. So much of the above seems to be speculation from folks who have been in neither. The OP should try both and make decisions based on that.

Re: AWOL v. CS 17

These are both planing boats but the rigs have different styles. The AWOL is a gennaker boat. To build one of those you have to be up for some of that.

The benefits are you can launch the genny solo (if you've got some experience) to increase your sail area. So in very light airs you can go from 1 to 3 knots, and in moderate air you can get it planing quickly and hold it there. Its fun as well as fast on a broad reach.

So what's the rub?

On a hoist you will roll the jib, bear away to direct downwind, stand with the tiller between your legs, then reach down and pull the bowsprit outhaul and cleat it, then pull the other end and hoist and cleat the genny. Then reach for the genny sheet, steer onto a broad reach and feel it accerate and plane. Then play the genny sheet - let it out untill it starts to curl then pull it back in. Or have a crew to do that while you steer. In higher winds you'll have to concentrate and at times keep the boat under the stick. Her genny isn't massive but now and again you might go in. But you'll be speeding in the teens and have some great sailing days. You will need to make a good job or her rigging and control systems to control the boat. You should be comfortable with light high loaded dyneema, splicing, double ended kicker controls etc and be prepared to purchase top end blocks, cordage and sails.

The Coresound 17 is proven: fast and capable. Construction is also very starightforward. That unstayed rig has numerous advantages. They carry slightly more sail as standard, so might edge away from AWOL in light air, the twin rig will be a gift downwind with no shadowing. With a hoist of a genny in light air AWOL should then pull ahead, and in planing conditions the extra sail area available should make AWOL plane earlier.

But it will be needing of your input: bear in mind that AWOL planing under genny will take some concentration and attentiveness from crew and helm. That is fine over an hour but after several hours it might start to drain a bit solo. Two up, gennaker boats are easily handled though, and the EC would need crew for most people. In light air years, the genny will be still be an asset.

I'd personally build the AWOL as I liked (and miss a bit) gennaker boats but if you want a boat that 'sails itself' with less absolute input required then the Coresound rig will probably be a better match (that's not a bad attribute to have for distance sailing).