I disagree, I've seen so many people saved by government services. Personally if I could entirely trust the people in the government I would happily
give any money I didn't truly need to support society. I mean after you save a few hundred thousand you're pretty well covered from any major life
changing incident. I don't get the people who are so selfish they think things like tax and welfare are bad. You will get old one day, and you might
need social security to fall back in if your life doesn't go perfectly to plan and you have a nice retirement fund.

The services that libertarians so espouse are vital to the survival of so many people, and it's not necessarily their fault, you think most people on
welfare just straight up don't want to work? It's very cynical. Most people would rather work and pull in $1000 a week instead of $200-250 per week.
As a student myself without my government I would be dead by now, so yes I love big brother, and I'm not afraid to admit it. The government does a
lot of good in my country, it's not perfect and there's always more to be done, but the fact is, our economy was one of the only ones not to go into
recession during the crash - we're doing some things right.

At the same time I despise the goons on TV (tony abott, krudd), I will of course vote labour, but I do not like krudd and gillard. I simply can not
trust a single thing that leaves these peoples mouths. However, I only see the lies in the media when they're pandering to the public to garner
support. Most of the things they say is such obvious polling that I don't know how people are actually persuaded by anything they say around election
time. I just vote for the government that has the most respect for life. I don't care about imaginary deficits and globalization, I don't give a #
about how much tax I pay, as long as I am free to think my thoughts, and as long as I don't call attention to my secret joy in laughing at
racial/sexual stereotypes and generally being pessimistic about the human race, then what does it really matter? I don't #ing care if I don't live
in a McMansion in Hollywood snorting blow out of dirty whore arses. I don't care if I don't have a million bajillion dollars in my bank account to
jerk off to. I don't care if I don't even like any of you #s. Life goes on, and whats important is that it continues to do so.

The libertarian dreams is the completion of the merger of state and corporation that you're all so afraid of. It's when the corporations own
everything, and the government is redundant because the market has conquered it, leaving nothing but you in a constant struggle trying to figure out
what business to buy from, which will scam you, which will assassinate you as soon as you disagree with their practices. They already control your
media, your government, your finance, how can you think you can win the game by giving up the only real avenue you have for making social reforms
against your masters? The only avenue you have to protect your rights you're all so paranoid of losing. If you woke up tomorrow and the government
was gone, that leaves you and your owner, and no one to regulate your interactions. It is martial law, it is a bunch of trained mercs.

Obviously it can also go the other way, the government can buy out business and you could all become slaves to big brother; but in the end it's the
same people that would be doing it too you, except they'd have to go through a much more accessible and public avenue where they will be in the
public eye trying to make changes, where as if the government goes, it'll be in the backroom of some #ty hollywood studio where everything goes down,
without your knowledge.

There is simply no avoiding tyranny if there is no public sphere, if there is no public information and everything is going on without anyone
watching. Most journalists who are getting paid in a libertarian society aren't going to betray their bosses by doing an investigative journalistic
piece on their bosses backdoor trading.

So, I guess I will now go back to being a passive observer, because I know it's a lost cause and America is heading straight for fascism.

Second, each employer is different, most employers typically choose to expand or provide surplus money
To management, not the cogs of the operation. Exactly why there is such a thing as unions, they did not sprout up for fun.

To the comment on employers....

I dont even know where to begin! That line of thinking is about as riddiculous as insisting the world is flat.
Perhaps in the extra large corperations like Walmart you MIGHT have a point but thats it. As far as I have seen, unions have caused more issues and
destroyed more opprotunities than anything else.

Walmart is America's largest employer, it is exactly what I am talking about. America's business culture is no longer concerned about the way the
management earns a buck. It is becoming more common place...

And union memebers used to make up the majority of Americas middle class, I suggest you think about the fact that unions and the middle class have
declined hand in hand. If you wanna talk about economics, there is a direct correlation an causation.

You conservatives are against welfare (unless it benefits farmers or whatever group you associate with), yet, you are also against things like unions
which created Americas middle class in the first place.

From my perspective it is a sad and irresponsible for so many of you to be so unaware and clueless.
American history shows the importance the unions used to play until corporations and te right wing launch a psychological campaign on.

So what we have is a corporate world that is a race to the bottom, economics 101

This is what happens when you focus on only helping out the companies in your country thinking they were going to go and hire people in your country,
when most companies just packed up what they could bought a smaller building and designed more " Programs " to replace people.

When you focus on everything but the people, you run into issues like we have seen, this isn't going to stop. Our next president is going to be more
of the same, to think it will change until we the people do something to change it is the definition of stupidity.

I can attest to this. I have three grown children. If we did not help them out, they would miss a lot of meals. Their wages will not keep up.
Can't save a penny for emergencies. This downscale of living in America has been happening for 20 years. Anyone who works labor and stagnant wages
knows this. The corporations and congress, who suffer nothing for their actions against the working man, will have us believe it is the fault of one
man.

There are people who have worked hard all their lives, paid their taxes and then lost their jobs; no fault of their own. These people deserve
government aid while they get back on their feet. However rewarding people who choose not to work, but rather leach off the government needs to stop.
There is no greater motivation to get a job then starvation. I work a full time job. I make enough to get by, but should make more for what I do. One
thing that really irritates me is that when I buy food I have to pass on the healthy more expensive food and get the crap food. Like putting salt in a
open wound I then watch people in line purchasing carts of healthy food using their food-aid cards. This doesn't make any sense. The government
should create a program for us full time workers where they partially subsidize the cost of healthy food only. The more nutritious food you purchase,
the more of a ‘discount’ you receive. This would save the government tremendous amounts of money in the long run when as a society we are
healthier.

You sound like a Govt crutch peddler. Those people "saved" by Govt I guess are just too dumb to save themselves?

Yeah, more Progressive drivel.

As for your take on Libertarians??? I have yet to see where they stated "no Govt". We are for L-I-M-I-T-E-D Govt.
Anarchists are for no Govt.
Get your Ideal Labels correct before you come back.

Stealing from you? Do you use roads? The roads created by tax money? Do you use public transport,ever? Often subsidized by the government?

Sometimes you can't find a job. It's a fact, and it's going to increasingly become a fact, jobs are disappearing, the only jobs left will be in
science/humanities soon. Robots are going to take over the service industry, and eventually the construction industry. This is something we have to
deal with, and we can't just tell people to find a job if such jobs just don't exist.

You're stepping into a future here, not back to 1950. Most of society will be unemployed soon. And you can pretend everyone could be business owners,
but given the way technology is developing small business will also become redundant in a vast amount of areas. Especially as the technology becomes
cheaper, it's still 20-30 years away, but we can't go backwards in time to the glory days of capitalism as much as you want too.

Sorry, I don't actually subscribe to the Libertarian Journal. I just saw their stance on tax and welfare and assumed that government would actually
have zero point in existing. What would government do in a libertarian society? I guess there's still the city planning aspect left, and uh, well,
talking about things on TV?

I don't get how they're stealing from YOU. You live in a country where you don't starve to death as the main event of life, seriously, stop being a
child. You're stealing our air, you stole that egg from another sperm, you're stealing potentially someone elses job, someone elses woman, etc.
Seriously, a woman would be wasted on someone who can't see beyond their own greed and randian wet dreams. I get that you believe in evolution, but
society wouldn't exist if we all went full-darwin.

I'd kill you and eat you because, why the # not? If I'm stronger than you, I should be allowed to kill you, government oppressin me maaan

For road, taxes are taken from gas tax and such.
For services, property tax.

Money stolen from my paycheck goes less towards the things I use on a daily basis, like roads and such, and more to give to people that "need" my
money.

So, yes. Theft, stealing, stolen, larceny.....Many different words, all defining what the Govt does to me.

As for not knowing? Maybe instead of being ignorant about what Libertarians believe in, why not research it as a whole, instead of relying of
Huffington Post and such to provide you with your basis of info.

I do think your idea of theft is quaint. very retread hippy'ish. But..........your items presented are about as weak as it gets.

If I steal gas from my neighbors car, because after all, gas is expensive and I "can't" pay for it, then I still got o jail for THEFT.

When the Govt steals from MY paycheck, you know, the money that I earned from doing a JOB, in order to give to someone else, that is "compassion".

That is a big steaming pile of crap.

But, as I have always stated here, it is ALWAYS different for Liberals and Progressives, and I don't expect anything less from you.

If the debate must go the route between welfare and the military member.............the military member wins every time. If i need to explain as to
why, then you won't get it.

The fact is still this.......There are more people on Govt handout then there are people working. This is a setting for a collapse and won't fair for
those in need anyways.

The fact is this....the Govt steals from me, to give to someone else. And people like you have no problem with that. Maybe the issue is that not
enough of YOUR money is being taken, for you to care. Or, you enjoy working for free, to cover the tab of someone else, when your own family can use
the money stolen, in a better manner.

And to be naive enough to think that the Govt provides for people out of compassion is funny, but sick as well.

I bet you are the first to get up in arms when Govt puts restrictions on people receiving handouts. Like, drug testing for welfare and such. Yet, have
no problem when the table is turned on me, and the Govt steals from my pocket to give to said people.

I do not determine worth, the market is supposed to. How much money is a greeter generating in revenue? You complain about CEO wages but then say
said companies they work for are making record profits? If a company is generating billions and profit and a CEO makes 35 million, how does that not
make sense? He is paid on his worth. That is capitalism. Should peyton manning and the ball boy be paid similar wages?

The outsourcing of jobs is due to government interference. Low wages for menial earners can partially be blamed at our influx of unskilled labor that
compete with our unskilled for a fraction of the price.

David Neumark, University of California at Irvine economist, explained to the Wall Street Journal that out of 100 major studies on the minimum wage,
85 percent of them “find a negative employment effect on low-skilled workers.”

Its nonsense to somehow think business just eat cost. No business owner does that. Goods do not always costs the same because the worthless
government is always growing, and that requires tax money. These tax increases are not just eaten by the taxed or provider, they are passed on to the
consumer. Small taxes that people are unaware of are passed all the time. These taxes add up and eventually show up in the market in the increased
price of goods.

Walmart and GE are two different companies, walmart has to compete with a highly competitive industry, your buddies at GE do not, the have the
chairman to shut down the competition, thus they do not have to worry about competition. Walmart is also a partner of the chairman so I'm sure hes
giving them tax breaks and helping them.

If the debate must go the route between welfare and the military member.............the military member wins every time. If i need to explain as to
why, then you won't get it.

The fact is still this.......There are more people on Govt handout then there are people working. This is a setting for a collapse and won't fair for
those in need anyways.

Clearly it's a problem that there are so many people who are not working, but I do not think the solution is cutting off people who are unemployed
and cannot find work. Do you think havin half the country hungry or homeless is a good way to quell a collapse??? Now I am not for people who abuse
the system and I am also not for people who use the abuse as a rhetorical tool either.

The fact is this....the Govt steals from me, to give to someone else. And people like you have no problem with that. Maybe the issue is that not
enough of YOUR money is being taken, for you to care. Or, you enjoy working for free, to cover the tab of someone else, when your own family can use
the money stolen, in a better manner. [/quote

My problem is turning my back on my fellow Americans who are out if work, period. I think it is idiotic to think you can solve economic problems by
supporting mass destitution as a solution.

And to be naive enough to think that the Govt provides for people out of compassion is funny, but sick as well.
[/quite]

You are applying your own callous mentality to that, I support such policies and it is out if compassion. You cannot tell me where the hundred million
people will go, because you don't care, this is why makes your position extreme and sociopathic.

I bet you are the first to get up in arms when Govt puts restrictions on people receiving handouts. Like, drug testing for welfare and such.

Wrong, I think drug test are completely fair. As long as they are trying to work, they are fed and not on the streets.

I do not determine worth, the market is supposed to. How much money is a greeter generating in revenue? You complain about CEO wages but then say
said companies they work for are making record profits? If a company is generating billions and profit and a CEO makes 35 million, how does that not
make sense? He is paid on his worth. That is capitalism. Should peyton manning and the ball boy be paid similar wages?

It makes sense in a simian, lord of the flies kind of way.

But at this rate it is unsustainable, in 100 years these people will make more than 100,000 people combined, that does not makes sense because the
majority of people will be be impoverished. It is the direction we are headed, cut from the bottom an give to the top, accelerating each year, it is
the road to economic slavery.

The outsourcing of jobs is due to government interference.

The outsourcing of jobs is due to the fact that China pays their workers $9 a day. Your thinking is so infantile and shallow sorry to say.if you want
to be intellectual, currency and economic equilibrium would mean that the US would have to pay the nearly same wages to US workers to compete. Without
government regulation the US market would have reduce worker wages over 1000% to directly compete. To about $11 a day.

Sounds great

Low wages for menial earners can partially be blamed at our influx of unskilled labor that compete with our unskilled for a fraction of the price.

Every economy has unskilled workers, you are blaming the people who are consistently paid less for more output.
Meanwhile excesses are thrusted to the top, the economic excess is not used to build a middle class or a living wage.

David Neumark, University of California at Irvine economist, explained to the Wall Street Journal that out of 100 major studies on the minimum wage,
85 percent of them “find a negative employment effect on low-skilled workers.”

Walmart and GE are two different companies, walmart has to compete with a highly competitive industry, your buddies at GE do not, the have the
chairman to shut down the competition, thus they do not have to worry about competition. Walmart is also a partner of the chairman so I'm sure hes
giving them tax breaks and

Being Americas biggest employer, Walmart passes off their employees healthcare needs on to the tax payers and re government. They also work tirelessly
to drive wages down, consequently increasing the load on government programs.

Yes, the taxpayer is broken. Corporations don't pay adequate taxes and they are killing the Middle Class taxpayer. So the parasites are killing the
vector. Dumb parasites. BTW by 'parasites' I mean the corporations, or the controllers. By their greed they are destroying the economy. To me,
the only way is to opt out in stages. They will probably try to end-run that, but good luck. I welcome this house of cards going down. It is 'Good
hell'.

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