Quote: Yet no one has specifically pointed out which move in Naihanchi or any other kata is a groundfighting technique and what technique it is?

There are already so many varying techniques of every move, now some of them are armbars, double leg takedowns, sprawls, and ofcourse, the guard.

Why the need for justification for the crosstraining? Why not just train what it is?

I don't see BJJ folks claiming deadly skin ripping kata that came from rolling on the ground.

Brian, if you read my posts I did refer to specific techniques/positions in kata. For example, the "stacked hands" in Naihanchi had grappling application. On the ground it is a keylock. As far as the guard goes, the closed guard is basically a bunch of hot garbage when it comes to karate's fighting philosophy. So, again, where the Brazilians have many names for many different techniques, the okinawans have principles of movement and fighting. If someone is attacking you on the ground it is wise to get you hips/legs in between them and your head/body. You can call this an open guard I guess, however, you should always be working to get to your feet. There is not much guard "play" if any in karate. Now, if you catch an arm on the way up, you might as well break it. If you stack your hands around an arm then rip the guy's shoulder out as you are getting up. These are the lesson of okinawan karate. Again, I think that there is confusion as far as terms go. No art has a monopoly on techniques. A punch is a punch and a keylock is a keylock. I believe someone who believes that they are so different standing and on the ground doesn't know that much about grappling. I will go so far as to say that ALL standing submission techniques with the exception of a guillotine choke and small joint manipulations(wrist included), require a bringing a legit opponent to the ground. Therefore, if karate has any effective joint locks to arms, shoulders, legs, or chokes then they were designed for use on the ground. Okinawan karate's strength is the adaptability of the kata technique. The techniques come from kata and the skill to apply them comes from wrestling as it relates to fighting. In fact, I will go one step further. I say that training straight BJJ if you want to learn to fight is no good. It will just get you knocked out in the 21st Century. If you really want to learn to fight you should just do that. If you roll use strikes as well. If you strike use wrestling as well. Its all fighting and it should be trained as one, its just that simple. In fact, that is one of the reasons I started BJJ and left after 2 months. What they were training would get you knocked out against a legit opponent. That's why if I need to brush up on my kumite I go to MMA open mats. In fact, I remeber when so many people even questioned any grappling at all in karate, standing or otherwise. Why not just say that karate is simply kicking, punching, and blocking nothing more nothing less. Just as people have FINALLY excepted some of the grappling found in the art, will they except the rest of it. Maybe, maybe not.

I don't doubt a word of either "The Essence..." or "Tales...". I mean the "Tales" part of the title tells you what those are. They both parallel pretty much what I've learned from various sensei and personal research over the last 25+ years of Shorin Ryu training.

Tegumi/wrestling is mentioned in Funakoshi's "Karate-Do: My Way of Life". That book was written in the first third of the 20th Century. Reading is fundamental. There is a short chapter dedicated to the salience of being a good grappler (in order to be a better toudi practitioner) which was a given before the 2nd WW. He states that wrestling in Okinawan Sumo matches as a youngster helped his (and I surmise) other's karate training. From this I gathered that there woud be no need for a tegumi interpretation in kata training. If you were already adept at grappling why would the karate lessons deviate from their true intent as a self-preservation art? Tegumi is a combat sport not a true MA.

There are many so-called experts of note on these sites and in print. Many have become rich because of their business acumen and not so much for their karate I.Q.. Take their words with a grain of salt. I have a feeling that Mr. McCarthy is not of that ilk. He is obviously trying his best to get his interpretation of karate right. He is seeking after having a solid foundation. For example you can see the influence of his stint in Shooto in his partner drills. The majority of the others out there don't have an original clue and in fact use sites like this to get money making ideas.

My last shinshii (Ron Lindsey) is by far the best and most able to truly apply his karate in a real-time, real world way (at least from my experience). He seeks no glory or riches. He tries to slowly spread what he has realized in different ways. The quality of his BBs vary, because the individual and their experience, body and mind account for a lot in any pursuit. I would say that his kata and training are adapted to the student. When I began training in the Philippines over 2 decades ago we were taught many wicked throws, breakfalls, standing locks, chokes on the ground, escapes and sprawls. Prolonged groundfighting was seen as a no-no.

I took a 13 years hiatus until I found Sensei Lindsey, which was out in the booneys like 2 hours away. Everything before that was sub-par even the Okinawan karate dojo (Matsubayashi under S.Nagamine then Ota- sorry Med!) in my area. When I switched from Matsubayashi to Matsumura Seito we learned more chokes, kyusho, locks and pins. We learned how to fight in seiza, kneeling and some ground counters. Again strict, drawn out rolling is seen as stupid and dangerous for the street. I agree. Proof of this is the fact that Gracie-Torrance has recently announced that they will not be participating in tourneys. If you have the money or connection to the family you are encouraged to sign up for privates vs. group training. Certain people are taught Gracie S.D which is the aspect of GJJ that G.M. Helio always wanted perpetuated. There is some rolling but a lot includes strikes, kicks, disarms and quick submissions. This is the original intent of GJJ, but very few ever learned it or thought that it was worth knowing. Stupid, arrogant and short-sighted IMHO...

So what I'm saying is that good karate teaches one all ranges with standing on your own two as the favorable position, as we'll as history, kobudo/kobujutsu critical thinking and respect for those who give it and especially to any potential adversary.

I don't know if people really read what I write, but there are some Okinawan Shinshii, Kobayashi's Matsuda comes to mind, who do teach groundfighting. He was a Judo champ and even has grappling kata as part of the curriculum. In jiyu kumite the fights often start standing and end up on the ground where one winds up trying to submit the other. He has been teaching like this even before 1991.

I trained for a few years with Lindsey Shinshii and was graded to nidan. That usually means squat, but I do feel that the Okinawan karate I've learned has served me well in many physical and mental endeavors. Those many sell-outs who received their foundation in karate then claimed it was useless are just stupid ingrates, learned under a hack or three, were substandard or just plain can't and never will be able to fight when it really counts. I won't mention names. You superficial, ignorant, punk-arse dolts know who you are.

I've always felt that what I gleaned from my awesome experience in Ryukyuan Sui-di can definitely hurt someone. Like many more before me I was a Sport Billy type whose background included the combat sports of Boxing and kickboxing. I started in Judo and have done some BJJ. Many decent karate guys had foundations in similar sports and arts. We are not ignorant fools who live in this Mr. Miyagi fantasy about what good karate is.

So my opinion is if you know how to judge what is good or not, you can think of good karate training as a very valuable life tool. Like most things the proof is in the pudding, and most of the pudding available to the masses is mud. That's not stylistic superiority that is the way of our world.

Most karate is good for a distraction, mediocre physical fitness and for period piece lovers; like Revolutionary War reenactors going through some pale semblance of the motions of war, but there ain't no real bullets or self-preservation aspect to it at all.

BTW Mr. McCarthy- was Richard Kim really an Okinawan Shorinji Ryu practitioner or did he do his own brand of Japanese Karate? Did you ever try and learn under strong Shorin Ryu guys like Yuichi Kuda or Fusei Kise (in his prime)? Did you ever train in the Kyan related systems, Kobayashi, Okinawan Kenpo, Uechi Ryu or seek out living masters like Hohan Soken? If not why? Thanks for your input. Oh yeah, Ed is just a mudansha. Forgive him for his brashness and "inquisitive" nature. When you get no true answers for your questions from your dojo or training then you might be prone to question everything you don't know. Especially if you don't like to (re)search for yourself!

Bryan Cyr, Nidan, Kokusai Shuri Te Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai

Edited by Unyu (09/14/0703:10 AM)

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Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

Thanks for the personal attacks. Once again proving your points thru discrediting the questioner...I'm sure nobody'll see right thru that. If you want to get into discrediting each other in a constructive way Cyr-san, you can start by posting a video of yourself doing something. anything. we don't disagree on anything crutial to the discussion and I'm being respectful, yet the mere questioning is prompting attacks on me?

Quote:Prolonged groundfighting was seen as a no-no.

in my experience, it wasn't so much a 'no-no', it was more of "if you want to learn the groundfighting range, then crosstrain with Jujitsu or Judo". the implication being: karate didn't have groundfighting passed down from the founders, but some likely had ground-range experience in one way or another. since everyone here is in agreement tegumi died out, then we can assume their (adult) groundfighting experience came from somewhere else: ie crosstraining.

Quote:We learned how to fight in seiza, kneeling and some ground counters. Again strict, drawn out rolling is seen as stupid and dangerous for the street.

same here. not to mention grappling in general has always been taught in Goju - it was that trait in goju which made it unpopular and unsuited for point-sparring. (someone who was into point-sparring at the time once told me: goju has too many clashes. lol) ...and that was in the 70's/early 80's. It was/is also the assumption when interpreting kata today. (always been my asumption anyway - thats based on the fact Goju kata is standing on 2 points of contact with the floor and often very close-in grappling and clinch range fighting).

Quote:So what I'm saying is that good karate teaches one all ranges with standing on your own two as the favorable position

absolutely. Incidently, I believe MMAs for self-defense teaches the same....but they probably learned all the blending of ranges and groundfighting from your teachers?

back in the 70's early 80's, we used to do 'ne waza' drills similar to this (first drill of the video only):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjumGcLXS0Q&mode=related&search=defense from the ground type drills. thats not groundfighting either.(btw, look at that first series of drills, defending from the ground against a standing opponent - then compare that to a Monkey-style kung-fu form )

Will research this as well.I love these arguments, they reveal many things.Ed,Please keep positive arguments going. The stuff they turn upis great. Thanks ED.

Then,To all you experienced guys having this discussion.Firstly this is a great thread because you are making it that way.But you are not the only ones reading and trying to follow this thread.Many others also do.We learn by what you intellectuals are saying and discussing.With out arguments there would be no proving or disproving there fore no need to research therefore we wouldnt learn.

So do us all a favour and as Jim says keep it clean and not to personal otherwise it would be a shame for this discussion to end.

Hi Jim.Im Not trying to take over Jim I know you do your job in a great way.Its just the personal attacks play havoc with my concentration and the amount of information these guys are posting takes some absorbing.Im still trying to keep up with the discussion.Fuzzy head syndrome.

Quote:From this I gathered that there woud be no need for a tegumi interpretation in kata training. If you were already adept at grappling why would the karate lessons deviate from their true intent as a self-preservation art?

That is my understanding as well. I had something snide to say to medulanet's view of everyone else's confusion and/or apparent inability to read, but meh. I'll shut up per Jim's request.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin