While driving through the western US looking for electrical effects on the rocks i noticed sand dunes on the floor of Death Valley. Just beyond the dunes were mountains that seemed to share the same shape. While driving south the mountains continued to remind me of the dunes. They also had what appeared to be water lines at their base that was equal on both sides of the valley. This pattern repeated itself with every turn. Even the mountains of Joshua Tree National Park which are made of Granite seemed to have the same shape. This didn't make sense because everyone knows Granite is igneous and not the product of dunning. When traveling North to the Yakima area of Washington state the mountains of Basalt had the same distinctive shape. They all had what i refer to as ridge lines. While trying to learn about dunes i was directed to the Northern Mexican desert South of Yuma AZ. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 7&t=h&z=13 Sometimes i see the ridges, sometimes i see valleys. I've run across very bright people who never see the ridges. It seems to help if you zoom out and then back in if your having trouble. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 7&t=h&z=13 This view has mountains next to the dunes that repeat the same shapes.When i looked at the Sierra Madre of California the ridge lines seemed to look like the slip faces of the dunes in Mexico.http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 4&t=p&z=12Then came The Namib Dunes with the same slip face patterns http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 8&t=h&z=14 If you can see the ridges they look much like the ridges of the Rockies SW of Denver. http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 4&t=p&z=12Just East of the above mountain i met a Smelter who tried to remove Gold, and Silver from Ore using Plasma and accidentally produced Granite, Schist, Basalt and all the types of rock found on the planet. He is re-doing the experiments and i'm semi-patiently waiting for the results. It's my contention that the mountains were created during the events described by Dr. Velikovsky during the encounter with Venus. The Plague of Darkness consisted of dust, sand, gravel, and rocks that lasted for up to nine days with hurricane force winds from the West. For three of these days the darkness caused by air borne particulates was complete. During and after this event the sun changed it's motion at least four times. Each change would create a flood of biblical proportion causing valleys and basins to flood. The effects of these floods caused the dust and dirt to be carried away and be evenly spread. Existing river systems would prevent accumulation so the dune/mountains would be interrupted and continue on the other side of the river. The river would easily flush away the air borne material. Preventing a canyon of Granite is much easier than eroding it. The Black Canyon of the Gunnison is over two thousand feet of solid Granite and Quartz. This would be the path of greatest resistance. After the canyon was formed by the dunning process an electrical surge [River of Fire]traveled through the river system and converted the wet ore into Granite.It doesn't matter when this event took place or even if it was Mars and not Venus. The point is, the consistent observations from every corner of the world describe events that would produce what is described. If the descriptions are correct what is proposed would be the natural result. The only thing that limits the size of dunes is the amount of sand and the intensity and duration of the wind. In this instance both were plentiful.When visiting the Grand Canyon there is a chart showing the layering. There are layers of underwater sediment and layers of dune. Flood, followed by dune, followed by flood and so on. http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/ge ... _layer.htmThis may have been rapid. That seems to be a start for this subject. If anyone has any questions please let me know.michael steinbacher

Last edited by davesmith_au on Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Changed subject line from "dunning" to "duning" after author realized a spell-check issue. Wherever "dunning" is used in the following posts, please supplant it with "duning" - DS.

I Ching #49 The ImageFire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTIONThus the superior manSets the calender in orderAnd makes the seasons clear

* Is "dunning" a normal word? Or do you mean "duning", or "dune-making"?* Many or most Velikovsky followers don't agree with a lot of his material. Your description of hurricane-force winds and floods forming mountain ranges and rigid dune fields is no longer given much credit any longer, because electrical forces seem to be largely responsible. The Great Flood seems to be true and may explain some of the layering of Earth's strata, but electrical forces seem to be mostly responsible. Both may have occurred at the same time, but much earlier than Velikovsky thought, probably 4500 years ago or so. Electrical forces common during close encounters with large bodies pulverize and remove rock from a body's surface to form trenches, craters, etc. Such rock powder often gets deposited electrically, often in layers, to form dunes, rock strata etc. You can find a lot of discussion of such things on this forum and in the TPODs. See also http://kronia.com/thoth.html.

Modern geology needs “sudden” narratives for mountain building—more in line with the legends of mountains appearing on what had been, before a time of “commotion,” a plain. (See, for example, pp. 419-425 in Flare Star by Dwardu Cardona.) --- Strata would not accumulate in horizontal beds and then be folded and eroded into mountains over millions of years. Instead, strata would be deposited or formed in place as we see them over centuries or decades—or maybe days. In an Electric Universe, the process could be analogous to electrostatic painting. It could be a scaled-up version of sand dune formation: the role of electricity in constructing dunes is only beginning to be investigated. --- It would be good to find some maverick geologist who can run an electric current through a pile of sand and turn it into granite and basalt, especially without melting it. It would be good to find an artist whose creative eye can visualize ridges of mountains deposited like sand dunes from a global hurricane of dust and debris. It would be good to find a plasma physicist who can describe electric currents snaking over and through the Earth during episodes of planetary instability.

The Namib desert also reveals thousands of square kilometers that are covered by hardened ridges that are covered by a thin veneer of sand. Instead of being dunes, per se, they are actually solidified stone that look as if a violent wind blew across molten magma, setting the ripples in place. --- One place where such hardened waves are found is Antarctica. Stone ripples are there, but even more anomalous snow dunes can also be seen. In 1997, the Canadian Radarsat satellite photographed gigantic megadunes 100 kilometers long, with separations of two kilometers between crests. --- ... Antarctica is the world's driest desert and the ice packs on at less than a half inch per year, so if wind and minute ice crystals are causing the snow dunes to form, no one can see it happening. Indeed, a comparison of images from the 1960s with more recent radar scans demonstrates that they have not changed shape or moved out of position for nearly 40 years.

The lack of movement and the hardness of the dunes (and the ripples) suggests that they were solidified and have remained in place since they were initially formed. In other words, they were glassified and fused together into immobile structures while retaining the appearance of loosely piled sand. Cathode sputtering and subsequent electrical deposition of the finely divided material onto oppositely charged regions across the surface could explain the ersatz dunes. --- There is also the fractal-like reduction in scale when considering ripples and dunes. Even small dune "tendrils" have smaller ripples. Dune crests like those in Rabe crater can be 200 meters high, while the tendrils are no more than ten centimeters but with the same morphology. What aeolian process can account for this progressive fractal reduction in scale? In electrical terms this is no anomaly since plasma discharges are scalar across many orders of magnitude.

Thanks for your reply Lloyd. My spell check says dunning is correct, not duning.The Tpod by Mel that you mention has my photograph. I've been working with Mel for some time and he has presented my work on another forum. Without electricity nothing i think about dunning would be possible. Most of the material was excavated from the surface of Venus. Some of the material was excavated from the surface of the Earth. And some would be Volcanic. If there was a plague of darkness around the world caused by particulate matter with hurricane force winds from the West and latter the East, it would cause dunes on dry land. If flooding occurred episodically there would be layers of underwater sediment interspersed. That's what i find in the field. Something then would be needed to convert this to rock externally. The river of fire [super charged expanded aurora] or interplanetary thunderbolts might be the agent. I'm as EU as they come, but if there is a simple uncomplicated explanation that fits the rocks in the field why not have an open mind. I know the group has become comfortable with the Grand Canyon being excavated electrically. I think there was a canyon first and it was zapped into rock and further enlarged while being converted to rock. The effects are actually greater to the south around Boulder Dam where there is much more Granite and Basalt. Only the bottom of the Grand Canyon has Granite and Schist where the current was more confined than the higher areas.When these events took place is not important, although i'm still comfortable with Dr. V. Some of the river systems could have started as Licthenberg Patterns on a smooth Earth. The process causes areas to rise making the areas that don't rise likely places for drainage giving birth to river systems. The raised areas would be the seeds for mountain building through dunning..http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl= ... 91&t=p&z=9So yes, lots of electricity, no problem.The main stream explanation for these formations is really a piece of work. Amazingly complicated. I think we're on the same team Llioyd. If the events in WiC described by eyewitnesses ever happened then what i propose would be inevitable, i think.This was not a dry dunning event. In addition to the oceans and inland seas being dumped East, West and Poleward, there were rivers, lakes and oceans that were boiling causing fresh water to fall as precipitation prolonging the floods and effecting the process.

I Ching #49 The ImageFire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTIONThus the superior manSets the calender in orderAnd makes the seasons clear

Concerning the Namib Dunes, there does seem to be a skeleton of mountains underlying the 3100 square mile dune field.http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 7&t=h&z=13The mountains seem to be laid out in a pattern consistent with duning. If you look at the tops of the ridges you'll see what seems to be rock sticking through.http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 5&t=h&z=16I propose the dunes came first, were converted to rock mountains, and then re-covered by sand which has not been exposed to electrical discharge. The rock of the mountains is supposed to be Sandstone, but i'd bet there is plenty of metamorphic rock. There would be no way to explain this unless the whole place was lowered a few miles and covered with earth to explain the secondary heating. That would be quite a trick. Can't wait to make the trip.

I Ching #49 The ImageFire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTIONThus the superior manSets the calender in orderAnd makes the seasons clear

Lloyd wrote:* Many or most Velikovsky followers don't agree with a lot of his material. Your description of hurricane-force winds and floods forming mountain ranges and rigid dune fields is no longer given much credit any longer, because electrical forces seem to be largely responsible.

Actually, what the EU theory proposes is that "wind" is at its heart an electrical force, and so a perfectly appropriate term to use in describing the formation of dunes. By implication, because electricity is scalable, so is wind. Though I don't know about "infinitely" scalable. Particle size, moisture content, and any number of other variables could weigh-in on limiting scalability there.

I can see the mechanism Michael S. describes working for the areas he's mentioned. A comet-tail of plasma, or river of fire, may have cruised through certain parts of the world and dumped material in huge amounts, simultaneously electrically turning them to stone. On the other hand, I can't see this theory working with the Himalayas, which in certain areas have heavily re-crystallized sea-salt deposits at their tops. But I try to keep an open mind.

Hello Kapriel: I think the eyewitness accounts can explain the salt and sea fossils found on Everest. Around the world the Sun was seen to stand still. This would open a can of worms. With the equator traveling at 1000 miles in a hour and the oceans being liquid the result would be mountain topping waves. The water, creatures, and a good portion of the bottom would inundate the continents. Today it would be the Pacific flowing over the western coast of the Americas. If it were a case of the Sun rising in the West, The Atlantic would overflow the East Coast. That doesn't explain the Himalayas because there aren't oceans directly East and West of the mountains. Maybe the East, West reversal would be sever enough, but there are other options. The closest approach of Venus caused tides that seemed to reach the sky during the passage at the Red Sea. After an electrical discharge between the two bodies, the tides returned, swamping even the mountains. I'm not sure the mountain forming process was completed and the current exterior exposed during this event. What ever left the salt and fossils must have occurred after the end of the deposition process, because they are on the surface. If the Earth stopped rotating and the Sun stood still, the centrifugal force causing the equatorial bulge would be removed. The diameter of the earth is 26.5 miles larger at the equator. That's both earth and water. That would mean a release of water towards the poles. Someone good at math might be able to quantify what that would produce. Any of the three options could leave shells and salt in the heights.Everything i mention comes directly from 'Worlds in Collision'. Mostly in the section concerning Venus. When i traveled to the western deserts looking for the evidence of electrical activity, i had forgotten most of the details of WiC. I noticed the pattern of dunes/mountains and couldn't imagine what could have caused this. When i re-read Worlds i was amazed. It was now clear that much of the talk of fire flowing like a river, or pouring down from the sky was plasma. Maybe Plasmoid, maybe Aurora, i don't know. But the description of mountains appearing after a time of darkness [dust, sand, gravel, rocks and boulders] are worldwide. I'm glad i wasn't looking for Velikovsky effects in Geology. Sometimes it's better to have a memory that sucks.Concerning the wind, a reversal of rotation would also cause wind beyond our experience. Both East and West depending on the Sunrise position. Also, it appears Hurricanes are electrical, so increased electrical activity would enhance the appearance of Hurricanes.michael

I Ching #49 The ImageFire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTIONThus the superior manSets the calender in orderAnd makes the seasons clear

* Glad to know of your collaboration with Mel. Are you a geologist? If so, it would be nice to know how to decide what formations are caused by floods. I read about the L.A. tarpits showing evidence of a flood. I'm also interested in finding out where to find a 3D map of Earth's sedimentary rock strata and formations, or data that would make such a map possible.* Yous should read http://kronia.com/thoth.html to help catch up on some of the progress made by Velikovsky supporters since his time. Cardona and Talbott have a lot of material there that I think improve a lot on Velikovsky. He apparently wasn't very good with mythology. He did discuss electrical forces, which I think inspired Juergens to do a lot of his work. Thornhill then followed after Juergens shortly after Juergens started writing.* On the matter of the Himalayas etc, I have a thread called Breakthrough on How Continents Divided at http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1462. It discusses a lot of ideas from http://www.newgeology.us. The idea is similar to continental drift, except that, instead of a supercontinent dividing into pieces over hundreds of millions of years, it was an impact, which I say was an electrical impact, that broke up the supercontinent and sent the pieces moving in all directions at over a hundred miles per hour, sliding on the nearly frictionless Moho plasma layer under the continents and oceans. Smaller mountain ranges formed nearer the impact point as friction was being overcome and higher mountains formed farther away from the impact as velocity was reduced enough for friction to take hold again. The Himalayas would then have built up as India smashed into Asia, similar to what continental drift claims, except that it happened in a day or so.* Here's my understanding of what Cardona et al have concluded so far, based on mythology and other sciences.1. Earth was a distant satellite of Saturn and they were far from the solar system. - Thornhill in Thoth ezine2. Saturn was the pole star, large in the sky, and it flared up like a nova periodically, probably every few millennia, usually. A plasma column holding a large amount of water connected Earth's north pole to Saturn. - Cardona3. Ten or twenty thousand or so years ago, the ancients lived on a planet Earth that was warm and had no mountains or oceans, just plains, hills and shallow seas. - Ashton or Wescott in Kronos magazine4. After the last flare-up of Saturn maybe 5 thousand years ago, Mars and Venus became visible. Venus began as a comet that circled Saturn, then it settled in front of Saturn, looking like an eye, while Mars moved between Venus and Earth, looking very large when close to Earth and very small on the face of Venus, when near Venus. The 3 planets were all red or maroon initially; Saturn and Venus changed color later. - Cardona5. About 4500 years ago Saturn and Jupiter clashed. An impact on Earth caused the supercontinent to break up and mountains and oceans to form. The polar column dispersed and much of the water it held fell to Earth at the north pole and spread out over the planet as the Great Flood. Earth flipped over, leaving Jupiter as the pole star in place of Saturn. - Cardona partly in Kronos magazine and me in the above-mentioned thread6. About 4300 years ago Jupiter, or Io, Jupiter's nearest large moon, discharged with Earth, causing the destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah, with burning sulfur, common on Io. Jupiter and Earth then moved to their present orbits. - Cardona in Kronos magazine7. Saturn, Venus and Mars may have moved to their present orbits before or after Jupiter and Earth moved to theirs. Earth acquired the Moon during the period between 4500 and 4300 years ago. - My estimate based on Cardona* No events involving the planets are likely to have occurred since Abraham's time about 4300 years ago.* High winds are likely to have been present during the chaotic phase between 43 and 45 hundred years ago, but seem unlikely to have had much effect in formation of sedimentary rock. Electrical forces that pulverized rock and deposited it in thin layers as described in my first post in this thread above, quoting from several TPODs, seems to be the primary cause of the formation of dunes. It's even possible that much sedimentary rock containing fossils was formed by electrical deposition. Many fossils may have been formed when animals and plants were buried during electrical deposition. Think of animals alive or dead being in their normal habitat on Earth and then a layer of dust covering them up and hardening by electrical means. Then more layers falling etc.* It'll be nice to find out how to determine which layers were laid down by flooding and which by electrical deposition.* What do yous think about all this?

Hello again Lloyd: I should have mentioned that i read Thoth while it was being published. Was lucky enough to read the second article in 1997. Went back to read the first article and waited with expectation for the rest. Read most of it at least twice because i'm slow. Also read everything Wal wrote twice. I even asked Steve Smith what to look for on my travels. He told me to read the Tpods which i had already done. I told Dave Talbott before i started my search i didn't think i'd find anything, but he encouraged me to try. I refer to myself as a fake Geologist. Zero training, But when i need to know something i stop by BLM and bug the local Gov. Geologist. After asking for the main stream story, i share my ideas. Most of the geologists start to vibrate. One dude with a masters in geology had read Hannes Alfven out of curiosity. He doesn't work in academia because nothing he sees in the field matches what he was taught in school. I left a copy of Wal, and Dave's "Electric Universe"" and a copy of WiC. When he finishes i hope to have an ally. Google allows me to answer specific questions when they arise. I'm slowly learning about rock.Concerning your question about flooding, everything was effected by flooding. As they told me at the Great Sand Dune National Monument, water prevents duning. That's why the waterline is so obvious. When you see a flat desert it means that area was submerged until after the last duning event. As you travel out of the valley and go up hill there appear small dunes. That suggests drying before the dust and sand was exhausted. I'm in Vegas and the process in very obvious here. Flooding is able to remove sediment extremely well. But once the sediment is converted to rock the process slows down dramatically. CJ asked me to photograph a flood that happened South of Austin, TX. A dam overflowed and carved a 3 mile long canyon in a day. The material was sediment, not rock.

Because of the extensive flooding while the water was teaming with sediment, many areas were filled with soft sediment. As the water level dropped the material was removed by the flood conditions[think Canyon Lands, and Monument Valley]. Once the River of Fire zapped the dirt into rock the erosion is minimized. In areas where the dunes are submerged in between the duning process the ridge lines are smoothed by underwater deposition. The mountain that surrounds the Grand Canyon is a good example. The ridge lines are filled in. The sediment is affected by gravity even though it's underwater. I struggled with this for months. The river itself will fill in with sediment when submerged, but when the flood recedes, the sediment is swept away, as long as there isn't a zap.Fake geologist, michael

I Ching #49 The ImageFire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTIONThus the superior manSets the calender in orderAnd makes the seasons clear

Concerning the Saturian break-up, i'm still comfortable with Dr. V. But the agent and timing are not the point. I'm concentrating on the observations of the eyewitnesses. Whether Io, Mars, Venus, Saturn, or Jupiter. 3500 years or 5000 don't make a lot of difference. So much of Dr. V is cross referenced i have a hard time abandoning him. Ipwur confirms the Old Testament, Akhnaton and Oedipus seem to confirm a lot of the timing. So many of his predictions have been validated. I had the pleasure to visit the Dr. a couple of times. Elisheva made sandwiches and played the violin. The Dr. answered my questions in a kind manner. I guess i'm prejudiced. Maybe if Dwardu plays the violin for me i'll abandon Dr. V.Dwardu claims to have not covered the events covered in WiC yet, i think. I might be wrong about this.michael

I Ching #49 The ImageFire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTIONThus the superior manSets the calender in orderAnd makes the seasons clear

Hi Michael.* Do you have any photos from your trip? Do you disagree with the geologic cross-section on this site http://geoscience.unlv.edu/pub/rowland/Virtual/review.html? It suggests that Frenchmen Mtn along with some Lake Mead mountains, shown below, are broken and leaning parts of the Colorado plateau. It doesn't look like a sand dune that moved 50 miles across a plain. Here's a satellite view of the mountain: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 9&t=p&z=13 - and here's the geologic cross-section:* If you've read everything by Thornhill et al, why do you disagree with their view that electrical forces primarily created dunes? It takes a long time for wind and weather to break up rock into small grains of sand and blow them around. Megalightning could do it on a large scale in minutes or hours. And what would solidify dunes into solid rock, if not electrical heating etc? If dunes were buried under a deep layer of sediment, the ridges of the dunes would be smashed flat before the dunes would have time to solidify and the bottom of the overlying sediment would likely at least partly solidify as well. The dunes surely wouldn't have sharp ridge-tops. If the sediment covering sandy dunes arrived by flowing, the flowing would surely destroy the soft dunes before enough sediment could arrive to solidify them.* Here's what Mel said in a TPOD last summer at http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2009/arch09/090727geological.htm.[quote]Plasma is electromagnetically active, and the forces can exceed the strength of mechanical forces such as gravity by trillions of orders of magnitude. ... Strata can be deposited in days or hours instead of centuries or millennia—and the layers need not be horizontal. Craters and canyons can be excavated in similarly short periods, and the debris can be lifted into space or pulverized, sorted, and deposited elsewhere. --- Native tribes in North America, for example, relate that the Cascades now occupy what had been a grassy plain. Were those mountains electrically deposited during the catastrophe that ended the Pleistocene Ice Age? Their present altitude is dated to that epoch. Were they deposited as dust and fused into rock, in similarity with electrical painting technology? Was the process similar to the formation of sand dunes? No experiments have been conducted to determine if electric mechanisms play a part in dune dynamics, despite the discovery of large electric fields in dust devils./quote]

Hello again Lloyd: I guess i didn't make myself clear. Everything about the duning i speak of was electrical and catastrophic. It wasn't a slow process. It was an electrical process that converted the dust and sand into rock. It was electricity that removed the material from Venus and Earth [Sputtering]. The main stream geologists agree that much of the Sandstone mountains are dunes [ Siltstone, Mudstone, and Limestone happen under water]. Sandstone is from duning or a beach. Most of the time it seems to be dunes and not ancient beaches. In order to explain the transformation to rock, mainstream geologists need to have miles of new material cover the dune. Heat from the pressure changes the particles into rock. Then instead of continued accumulation, the process reverses and the material conveniently erodes away. I completely disagree with this fairy tale. It's the River of Fire that does the conversion.I can't tell you how uncomfortable i am disagreeing with Wal. I can't imagine anyone sharper on the planet. He is a hero. My only disagreement is concerning the Grand Canyon. I feel the river came first. It was the low point in a drainage system. That is where a river would flow. Then came the dust, and sand. The river prevented accumulation. The sand seems to have blown in from the NW. When the growing mountain reached the river it stopped accumulating. But sand flew across the abyss and started accumulating on the other side. So you have a river with a mountain of sand on each side. Then an electrical event traveled through the river system and passed through the mountain making rock. Dunes hold water making them great conductors. If you go to the Sand Dune National Monument and dig down one foot you hit water. The sand is saturated. The Rangers claim it's 180,000 years old. I don't agree, but it doesn't move or change. Wal and many in the group believe the mountain surronding the Grand Canyon was there first, and then a discharge excavated the canyon. If the mountain came first there would be a river traveling around it to the SE, I think the discharge would have followed that river and not gone through a less conductive mountain. And if it did go through the mountain, i can't imagine such a smooth excavation. There should be lakes and waterfalls, instead of a nice steady decline. I starred at google maps for months before i came up with the dune crap, trying to understand the excavation through the mountain if there wasn't a river there to start with. Then came Death Valley and my path into dune obsession.If you read the link about the electrical nature of duning because of the process of saltation you understand that normal sand dune formation is electrical. But if the material had been removed from Venus when it was a comet, electrically interacting with the Sun, then the sand could have an additional charge making the process even faster. Also, when the speed of the wind is fast enough the saltation process stops because the sand becomes suspended and stops bouncing. That could mean lots of sand flying suspended over the oceans until it reaches land. Look at the continents. The West coasts have mountains. Even many islands have mountains in the shape of dunes on the west coast. The entire process must have been fairly quick because the flooding could not have lasted that long. The deserts would drain. When deserts are billiard table flat it means the sand accumulation had ended before the area dried up. I could be wrong about the Grand Canyon. It's not a deal breaker. It's just that every other canyon seems to say water prevented accumulation, so why would the Grand Canyon be different.Yours, EU michael

I Ching #49 The ImageFire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTIONThus the superior manSets the calender in orderAnd makes the seasons clear

Sorry, i didn't see the top of your post with Frenchmen mountain. I don't claim it's a dune that moved 50 miles. I maintain it's a dune that accumulated where it is. Geologists who claim it lifted up 50 degrees on the West claim that it moved 50 miles to the west. They are forced into this position because the sediment under the mountain doesn't match the sediment in the mountain. You have to go 50 miles East to find similar stratification.I have photographs of everything. I don't know how to post images on the forum. michael

I Ching #49 The ImageFire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTIONThus the superior manSets the calender in orderAnd makes the seasons clear