If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: Vendor Forums

The responses are great and informative.
Judging from the increase in sales on OxaVap.com the last couple of days, many beekeepers have chosen OAV as a weapon against mites.

_Especially_ given that the thread was started by the seller, and given that the seller (who was moderating the thread at the time) engaged in the discussion (and dismissal) of my concerns for both the overall safety of OA _and_ the lack of safety warnings on his website (buried in a video where no one would know to find them...not in writing anywhere), this is a problem.
Ideally (and I don't know the backend setup/options) my posts would simply be restored.
But you've now helped to boost his sales with a 'discussion' in which the general moderation standards of Beesource were not in place (even with a rather wide margin)...certainly I've been in the position of defending my own work in the face of criticism (both legitimate and illegitimate) often enough. Some of the harshest critique of my book on Beesource was made by Peter Borst who has not read it.
If you give sponsors a pass on critique of their product while allowing them to benefit from the reputation of the good information available on beesource, you 'cheapen the brand'.
It's your brand Barry, I'm all for generating income....but when it gets confused with the content that makes the site valuable, value is lost.

deknow

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Vendor Forums

Originally Posted by deknow

Today, from the thread in question: _Especially_ given that the thread was started by the seller, and given that the seller (who was moderating the thread at the time) engaged in the discussion (and dismissal) of my concerns for both the overall safety of OA _and_ the lack of safety warnings on his website (buried in a video where no one would know to find them...not in writing anywhere)

deknow...Dean, I wish you would make up your mind:
First you state that the written warning on my website was not enough; now you state it's not written there at all ..when it clearly is. You state the warning in the video is "buried" where no one could find .. (clearly YOU found it... do you think YOU are the ONLY one gifted with the ability to look there?)

So yes, I deleted your posts as they held no validity. It appears as if you are still very upset with the critique of your work

Re: Vendor Forums

On the contrary...I know that the critique of my work ('valid' and 'invalid') that has been open to discussion in which I had no power to 'delete' others posts has helped me in my writing, have helped others understand and find things they thought were missing (ask squarepeg), and helped to sell some books.
I don't believe in deleting posts...if you check whatever log there is of my activity, I don't think I've ever deleted one of my own posts.

But regardless, I don't have a record of my own deleted posts. If you be so kind (and honest) as to restore them (and your replies), I'm happy to look back at what I said, and apologize if I've misspoken or been unclear.

I remember when I was into bicycles in the 80's. I used to get Bicycling magazine...but every review for a product that advertised in the magazine was a positive one. I hope this doesn't happen to Beesource.

deknow

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Vendor Forums

Yes, I agree that it is much better to have the seller of a product determine what is 'true' and what is 'false' than it is to have it be open to discussion.

I come to beesource for open discussion. I don't think the power to steer (and delete posts from) a discussion of one's product should be up for sale.

The 'standards' by which my posts were deleted (after you had replied to them) would not have happened anywhere else on Beesource.

I have honest (and well informed) opinions on why OA is problematic from a safety standpoint, why the way the vaporizers are sold contributes to these problems, and how it negatively effects the bees (malphagian tubules, microflora).

I've used vaporized OA and I'm informed on how/why it is used.

I'm not speaking out of ignorannce or out of any personal vendetta against you...these are my legitimate concerns, and the seller of the vaporizer calls them invalid, deletes them, and boosts his sales. I'm very certain that Barry has a vision with more integrity than that.

I'm especially saddened that OA is seen as a 'soft treatment' and preferable (and morally superior) to other more 'industrial' methods...but, as Michael Bush has at least alluded to, soft treatments like organic acids and essential oils are probably more disruptive to the microflora than Coumaphos or Fluvalinate.

In short, I don't like that Barry essentially 'sold you' the right to moderate me about your own product..I don't think that adds value to Beesource.

deknow

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Vendor Forums

Dean,
Your posts were deleted because you thought I should have done more to point out safety on my website. That was not a topic open to discussion. Then you go on to lie in post 21 in this thread that they were not even there at all.

I'm sorry, but I'm through with this "discussion." Rant and post all you like, others can see though you.

Re: Vendor Forums

My posts in this thread and in 'your' thread were all made in good faith and honestly.

I've not found it necessary to delete my own words as you have. I've not found cause to want to delete anyone else's posts (nor have I paid for the privilege).

I've attempted to express my concerns publicly, and I've been polite.

I don't know what else to say...this is Barry's site, and it is up to him to decide how to commercialize it. I'd keep the content (and moderation) decidedly separate from the commercial aspects, but it is his site and his bills that have to get paid.

deknow

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Vendor Forums

Dean,
I can't restore your posts and I would not if I could as they were false just as your post (#21) in this vendor forum. Look back at posts 33, 34 and 38 to get a sense of what you wrote.

You may want to check your facts in the future before you criticize someone....

Unfortunately, we have to take your word for it. As I mentioned in the the thread in question, the fact that you deleted the posts made it appear as though you were attempting to suppress criticism. You replied to me that you deleted the posts not because they contained criticism, but because Dean was being "personal." I'm dubious. It's true that Dean is somewhat fierce in defense of his positions, but I don't remember him engaging in personal attacks or calling names.

In any case, you may have done yourself a disservice in commercial terms. Consider this: if it came out that Amazon was suppressing negative reviews of products they sell, customers would lose faith in their review system. Because of the way Beesource is set up, it appeared that you were suppressing negative reviews of your product. That was a mistake, in my opinion, even if that was not what you were doing.

It might have been smarter, in the business sense, to simply respond to Dean's erroneous facts, with facts of your own, and let the customers decide who is right.

Re: Vendor Forums

Ray,
I guess time will tell. Dean's criticism was not all in regards to the products, but rather that there were no safety warnings on the Oxavap website . When I pointed out to him that the warnings were there and where they were, they were not sufficient for him. So rather than have the thread go round and round on what Dean wanted to see on my website, I deleted both his posts and my responses to them. If I made a mistake, I made a mistake.

Re: Vendor Forums

1. There were many more posts deleted than those described.
2. My _recollection_ is that the warnings were in the audio track of a video titled, 'Vape in Action' or somesuch....nothing that a user of average or above average ability could find if they were looking for safety precautions...not without looking at everything. Contrary to what you said above, I don't think I found it, I think when I asked where it was you said it was in the video.
3. How those selling a product inform their customers and potential customers of the risks, hazards, and legality of using their product has a lot to do with how that product is used, and therefore has a lot to do with the question, "why not use it?".

Originally Posted by snl

Ray,
I guess time will tell. Dean's criticism was not all in regards to the products, but rather that there were no safety warnings on the Oxavap website . When I pointed out to him that the warnings were there and where they were, they were not sufficient for him. So rather than have the thread go round and round on what Dean wanted to see on my website, I deleted both his posts and my responses to them. If I made a mistake, I made a mistake.

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Vendor Forums

Barry, that's fine, I'm willing to generally let things lie as they are are if you are taking steps to fix the underlying issues.
I will admit that I don't much like how I was treated on that thread, and that I like even less how the 'record' looks, with snl being listed as having deleted my posts (even though he is not a moderator), and then to have him mischaracterize the nature of content of the posts that he deleted on this thread.
My posts represented legitimate concerns to a question that he asked. If it is possible to restore my contributions, I think you should do so.

deknow

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Vendor Forums

Things have been generally cleaned up nicely...thanks Barry.

Our county club has had a problem a few times where suppliers offered discounts to members. We (members of the board) would get calls and emails asking us to verify with the vendor that person X was a member.

Our feeling was (and mine is) that there was an implication that we (the club) was working with the supplier if we had a hand in verifying membership status (and we do not share our membership list under any circumstances). We left them to work things out with the vendor directly and kept the club out of it (this has happened more than once).

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...th-Oxalic-Acid
...might be worth considering in this regard. I don't know the legal issues that might or might not be involved. One might note that (as far as I can tell), no one has been willing to openly sell these vaporizers to the public in the US from a US company until now (in 10 years or so no one else has seen the value to be worth the risk...I bought mine 'underground' from an equipment supplier that wouldn't advertise they had them). BS might not want to appear like it is participating in marketing these devices, even if BS is willing to take advertising dollars....again, keeping the advertising and the content separate is important to keep the value of the site...do you really want the PM function to be used in this way? By whom?

deknow

Sometimes the lights all shining on me
Other times I can barely see. -The Grateful Dead

Re: Vendor Forums

Originally Posted by beeman2009

You guys must be mistaken, nothing illegal happening here. We are simply using OA to whiten the inside of the hives as well as the frames. We just can't figure out how to get the bees out when we do it.

Sorry beeman2009, but that doesn't pass the straight face test!

Barry, I miss the days when you sought donations to keep the site going. I imagine it must be an expensive undertaking, but I don't recall ever seeing anything that clearly described what the need was. Were donors seeking moderating privileges?

I'm fairly sure the journals only run ads for products not approved in the US for out of country dealers.

Re: Vendor Forums

rader both of the vendors are located in Canada, although wintersun chemical also has a link to China.

Well, the 909 area code in the Wintersun Chemical ad indicates that is an Orange County, California USA phone number. And from their website:

Wintersun Chemical has been a premier chemical supplier in the United States since 1997. The main office is located in Ontario Southern California with 30,000 square ft office and warehouse space. Wintersun is listed in California Unified Certification Program (CUCP) database of certified DBEs under chemical distributor category.