@superguy1591: Yeah grandpa Jay who casually reacts in nanoseconds and physically went toe to toe with Black Adam and was overwhelming him.Also the ability to speed steal like Jay did to Superman and Black Adam.Thor isn't beating Jay

@superguy1591: Yeah grandpa Jay who casually reacts in nanoseconds and physically went toe to toe with Black Adam and was overwhelming him.Also the ability to speed steal like Jay did to Superman and Black Adam.Thor isn't beating Jay

Apoc solos you can't speed steal someone who has total control of their own molecules and is a better energy manipulator

Why can't you speed steal someone who has control over their own molecules?

edit: To explain, Amazo, who had Martian Manhunter's abilities -- including the one that, you know, allows him control over his own molecules and thus unfettered regeneration + shapeshifting -- was speed stolen by Wally just fine.

Not that I'm saying Jay wins, I'm just wondering where you got the distinction that people who can control their own molecules are immune to having their kinetic energy stolen. Beyond Martian Manhunter, other speedsters who have had their speed stolen all control their molecules as a base set to their powers.

Thor has tagged opponents that are FTL before. His reflexes don't follow the laws of physics apparently, so Jay's speed is irrelevant.

I'm done hearing you out. This is a terrible argument. Speed is not irrelevant against Thor and it has been shown literally dozens of times. Thor hasn't fought someone who was fighting him at FTL speeds in decades.

@dredeuced: It doesn't matter how long it has been, it still happened. Unless it was retcon, it counts,

I'm not even sure Classic Thor has outright battled someone at FTL speeds, but let's assume you're right. It's still inconsistent with Thor's modern feats. Thor is much, much more consistently shown to be much slower in combat speed. Let's take a quote from the rules thread:

What Can You Use?

Like most things in the fight, the following may vary depending on what the thread creator chooses to allow. Despite, or maybe because of, how much debate there’s been on this area (check old threads in the Battle Forum) this section is rather small. What I have here is what I think most people agree on.

Things that aren’t canon are not used in battles unless otherwise stated by the creator of the thread. For things that are canon, an understanding of the character as a whole helps determine what they can do in fights. For example, one time feats, crossover feats, powers/abilities that haven’t been used in a long time (but haven’t been specifically removed) are not to be dismissed out of hand, but they should be weighed against regular appearances and displays of abilities. Don’t just use a character’s best showings to determine what they can do, and don’t just use their worst showings to limit them.

---

Weigh Thor's combat speed from a couple of ages old classic scans that, while not technically retconned, certainly contradict his ability in the modern day. Weigh them against the dozens, nay, hundreds of times Thor has been depicted slower in the last 20-30 years and tell me "it still counts." Weight it against the fact that high ranking Marvel editors have stated Thor isn't particularly fast when it comes to combat, despite his ability to travel vast distances quickly. Sure, it counts, but it counts less than hundreds of other showings. Thor can't fight at FTL speeds. He more consistently struggles with street levelers, speedwise.

@comicsrulebutdbzdoes2: What? People who react in nanoseconds are at least 1,000 times faster than a user who has reacted in microseconds, especially since Thor has contradicted that showing with his more modern showings of having street leveler speed

@comicsrulebutdbzdoes2: ...Microseconds are faster than nanoseconds? Then that must mean that Iron Fist reacts faster than Wally West and Zoom 0o0! Good golly! Iron Fist reacts faster than Superman! I never knew... Iron Fist reacts faster than Silver Surfer!...smh

@jbourne_32: You realize that Jay was able to phase and draw blood from Adam and leave almost completely helpless until Adam resorted to a thunderclap to stop Jay? Especially since Jay is insanely faster than Thor? And that Jay can take his speed like he did Clark and Teth,2 people, especially Superman, who are way faster than Thor?