Oh my, your post really helped me out too. That makes sense about the child being protected after the abuse. I don't know how people survive it when the parent says something dismissive and then treats the person like what happened doesn't matter.

I never thought about it quite in the light of "maladaptive coping techniques". Yes, that is a good piece of insight. He is really having trouble believing the world is not a scary horrible place. We've had some other awful things happen that just totally made the situation worse.

I have a very controlling abusive older brother, whom I thought had made a turn around after our father died Sept 12 2001 (day after the disaster). So when I came back down to this area after being away I thought I would have his support, since he had sworn to treat me well and given me a big hug to cement the treaty. To make a long story short - I didn't have a garage sale on a day that he decided I should, and so he came over to my Mom's and my house and started a yelling tirade. My son had just been reveling in this newfound "father", even calling his Uncle, Dad all by himself (I wasn't there when he did it). Well, my brother yelled at my son very aggressively telling him to get back in his bed and yelling at me to "get in there and take care of him". At that point I gathered up my son and went out for a drive until I could see that my brother had left. The next day, my brother (who is married and has 3 older kids who had been playing with my son and he was in heaven over it) came over, tried to push in the door, then opened it and slammed me out of the way, demanding an apology from me (yes, it really is exactly that crazy and nonsensical). I told him to leave or I would call the police. He yelled at my Mom, told her he wouldn't finish a job he had agreed to do for her - yelling in her face, pointing his finger. I went to the phone to call the police and he had taken off and disappeared. So this was a tremendously devastating blow to my son, he was just completely heartbroken.

Then, we went to my Mom's cousin's for Xmas because my Mom wanted to show her some support since she is married to a man who had recently been arrested for attacking her. (yes, I didn't really want to go). So he began telling my son that he had to toughen up, and demanded that he play with the toys that he got for Xmas only on this one small rug. My son had a hard time with that, never having anything like that been imposed on him before. So, he was coming towards me for some additional feedback while this monster came thundering after him to get back on the carpet and the jerk grabbed him and pulled his hair. We had been there for 4 days, the man has run off all of this cousins other friends and family and he had just run us off too because I told him that's it, we're leaving. He had also yelled at my son for getting excited over some birds outside eating the bird food. So, I packed us up on the spot and drove the 10 hours home. Just GREAT experiences. And that was before I knew about the sexual abuse. So all I can tell him is that Mommy will not allow him to be treated that way, and point out that Mommy got him out of the situation. He also heard me give that man a piece of my mind as we were packing! He said, "now I know why you had to leave so and so (husband)" I said, one more word and I will call the police. I said, "I didn't drive 2200 miles by myself with my son here to take any #$%! off of YOU". But he does have this impression that the world is a terrible place. He has told me he doesn't want to grow up because people who grow up become "killers". I can't point to anyone we know right now who is a male to contradict this! I have had to remind him about doctors we have visited, and tell him that we will meet people who really are good people.

Really rambling on that one! I have been trying to emphasize that I will protect him whatever the cost and that's my job, and that I am one very strong Mommy. Your post gave me more direction on that and I have been doing that since reading it. His nightmares tell me that he is very concerned with feeling safe.

Tonight I told him that he is in control of whether he sees Daddy and whether or not he wants someone else there to make sure Daddy doesn't do anything he doesn't like. I have been trying to praise him as much as I can without being phony, he is too smart to believe flattery. But my Mom has been doing the same too and it seems to be helping also. He had been pretending to be the bad guy all the time, instead of the good guy. It never even occured to me growing up to pretend to be the anti-hero. I always had to be the good one, and I know that I just took it for granted that I was a good person and I am so furious that his father took that self-assurance away, what a hideous crime. He told me he thinks he's bad because of Daddy hurting him - and, it shows in him saying "Daddy hates my bum". My gawd that says it all.

"I wish the same had been done with respect to my own father -who abused me for about 20 years, both verbally and psychologically, and my mother was a willing accomplice." - you know, I think that is just the most horrible thing. I had a friend whom I met when we were both twelve, and over time I came to realize she had been absolutely horribly abused. She really developed some outrageous behavior. It took her a long time to tell me she had been used in child pornography and ritual abuse. She is the daughter of a famous older Hollywood actor, and her mother married the actor's brother and had two more children, both boys, her brothers. That man was a total monster. Her mother had left the creep when he broke her nose and her ribs. Then, before our very eyes when my friend was 16 she remarried this filth! The Mom told me later that she was "horny" and couldn't stand it anymore and that's the real reason she remarried this creep. He is the one that molested my friend, and her brothers. When she told, yep, you guessed it, one of her brothers admitted it the other stood by the old man. It was just such as sick situation it made me feel physically ill to be around the Mom. I was there when this man horribly abused my friend - she left a mirror leaning in the hallway while painting her room and the creep tripped on the mirror and broke it, then dragged my friend upstairs by her long black hair to make her clean it up, and slammed her head into the wall and then threatened to throw her out the upstairs window. I had to get my car keys out of her room and he had shut her door with no knob on it, with wet paint. So we had to pry the door open and I took her to my house that night. What I'm saying is I have seen first hand the heinous, horrible damage this did to my friend. It was just monstrous.

I have some thoughts on the effects of these things too. I think that abuse causes so much emotional damage, and one of the things it does is cause your subconscious to use up lots of it's "RAM" just while you're going about your daily living. So vast human resources are being used up spinning on this problem in the person's life. It's like, until it's resolved your subconscious mind is going to be going all over it, turning it over and over in your mind instead of doing so many positive things it would normally be doing for you- keeping you aware of other danger, huge chunks of intuition do not get processed through there because it is working on this #@$!. So right there it is destroying potential as well as all the other more obvious ways. To be truly creative a person needs to have the most important needs of safety, food, shelter, security met. I think we would be a lot farther in curing cancer if people were not abused and then told they are crazy, not supported and left to deal with it for the rest of their lives.

So, I think yes, unequivocally you would feel more secure, you would believe in yourself more, you would accomplish more and you would sleep at night (this is a severe problem with me as well, starting with when I started realizing that there was some kind of serious problem in the relationship with my ex-h) I think learning to channel all of that stuff into something positive does help, but it takes a lot more energy than just accomplishing and feeling safe in the first place.

I don't want my son's potential drained by grappling with the whys and wherefores of his father's sick behavior. He keeps talking about growing up, getting bigger than his Dad and then going and throwing him in the trash. I am trying to steer him toward building, creating, doing, becoming rather than wasting his time on negatives such as revenge, because you can never teach people like that a lesson anyway. I try to tell him that the thing to do is call the police and get people who's job it is to take care of these things to handle it while he goes his way being happy and building a good life and learning, exploring and being curious.

My son had the C.A.S.T. interview here at our house yesterday morning. The social worker who has been helping us with this came to the house and brought a lady who does nothing but interview children regarding sexual abuse.

My son refused to disclose to her. I gently asked him why he didn't tell her "the secret" and he told me he didn't have enough time, that she "had to leave in three minutes". I find it ludicrous that they think a 5 year old (he just turned 5) would tell someone he's never met about sexual abuse in a half-hours time, when it took him a year to tell his own mother! So she said she would have to write "unfounded".

I called the social worker afterwards and left a message telling her what he said, that he felt rushed and that he had planned on telling her. She hasn't gotten back to me yet, but they gave me the impression that she wouldn't come back out because I asked her if he told me that he wanted to talk to her can he still tell her? She said no, he would have to tell one of the therapists something else again! He hasn't told the play therapist yet, so there is still hope that he will.

I find this just ridiculous, because the day before the interview the first therapist whom both of us were taking turns seeing told me that he had very explicitly told her about the abuse when I had gone out of the room to allow him to talk to her by himself. I had not fully realized that before. I thought he had clammed up and not told her anything, but she said that what happened is he told her very directly and explicitly and THEN clammed up. So she told me not to bring him for a while to take the pressure off of him. So I will just take him to the play therapist and see what happens. He has been having dreams about our house burning down, and one of the things his father said in front of him before we left was that he was going to go and "burn the house down".

Plus, he had played out a scenario with me where he told the character from his book "No More Secrets for Me" named Beth, who is the friend of the girl being molested by her stepfather - his secret. So I pretended to be Beth and he told me the secret. Then I told him, "but remember in the book Maureen (the girl being molested) tells her teacher about it and the teacher says that there are a group of people that help with this kind of thing, that she needed to tell?" I was hoping to reduce his anxiety about the C.A.S.T. interview but now I wish I hadn't said anything. So then he said, okay, Beth, you tell the people my secret and Beth is supposed to say "yes, I will tell for you" and instead I said, but do you think you can tell them with me maybe?" and he flopped down on the bed and refused to move, so I said, "what happened?" and he said, "I died and went up to heaven." So he told me he would rather die than tell the interviewer! That was the night before she came. Then he flip flopped, he would be able to tell, he wouldn't, he would be able to tell. I didn't pressure him, just told him that I hoped he would be able to. So I believe that he really would have told her if he had had more time to get comfortable with her. On top of it, she was pretty, and even though he is five he gets what I call "twitterpated" when he thinks someone is pretty. He got twitterpated over the first therapist and sat there and flirted with her and behaved totally silly for ten minutes before we finally realized he wasn't going to talk about stuff anymore that day. He told me he thinks she's really pretty, and that he "likes her". (thank the great goodness that he already seems to like adult women and I hope it keeps up the rest of his life) So I think that added to his embarrassment about talking about it to her.

I'm trying to get in touch with my attorney, it may be enough to have the police reports from his father trying to choke me when we were up there, to keep him from seeing him without supervision.

But I want them to get him for this! I am furious!

Thanks for listening, if you've read this far. All of your input has been very much appreciated.

Your posts send shivers up my spine. You speak of the play therapists and the fact that your 5-year old had a hard enough time telling YOU, let alone a complete stranger. Yes, first there are the therapists, then the police, then more police, then the court system, then and the defendant’s attorney....ahhhhh! The Illinois Prosecutor would not let a mediator testify, my 9-year old child would have to face his father, an intimidating defense attorney and all the many faces lined up in the court room. In which there were his aunts, uncles, grandparents etc. When the court process was over, I was looking at a devastated, terrified little boy. I am praying you live in a state that is more progressive when it comes to CSA. I have to tell you, all my paperwork, all my notes.. doodles and thoughts that I wrote to myself while I sat in the witness room are packed away in a briefcase. When I came home from court, I dropped it in the garage and my current husband pushed it to the side. That is where it lays... untouched.

That was just criminal court I just spoke of. My ex-husband and I had been divorced for 6 years! The courts told me we had to change the divorce paperwork in regards to child custody and visitation. We had to take the case to family court because DAD still wanted visitation (over my dead body). Needless to say…. his father no longer has parental rights…. After spending thousands of dollars I had to file bankruptcy. And by the way… DAD took a plea, and was charged with Battery. The initial charges were 1st degree Sexual Assault and Sexual Exploitation of a Child. He is not a registered sex offender.

My son, Jordan, is now 16. It took him 7-years to tell me what was going on weekend after weekend. His father would tell him "I" would not believe him. That "I" would think he was lying. And after what seems to have been one of the many very vicious encounters... his father told him "This happens to all children by their parents... it’s just how it is." I am forever haunted by the words spoken by my son the night he disclosed his secret to me. Jordan said.. he kept thinking... my mommy would never hurt me like that. Jordan picked up the phone and begged me to come get him from his fathers house. And that was the last time he was at his fathers house.

Lori….thoughts about yourself... about being a bad mother. YOU didn’t know what was happening... and I totally understand when you say.. “How could he hurt his own child”. I have driven myself crazy thinking all of those things. While I was busy enjoying my free weekends with my new husband, my son was being sodomized by his father.... weekend after weekend.

Please remember it’s not YOUR fault. You could NOT think like the monster that hurt your child. But now you are forced to think … and make a promise to your son.. that his father will NEVER hurt him again. Take charge… don’t let the judicial system intimidate you! I was willing to send my child underground and made the arrangements to do so. What ever it takes Lori….

>>>Oh my, your post really helped me out too. That makes sense about the child being protected after the abuse. I don't know how people survive it when the parent says something dismissive and then treats the person like what happened doesn't matter.

It feels like your brain is litrally blowing itslef outside of your body.. that the REALITY of what happened is so obvious but then someone actually says "I dont know what you are talking about" or "that's not true" is just unbelievable. I literally saw nothing but WHITE in front of me when I heard (and still hear) those (pardon my language) "mind-fuck" insane double-messages.

>>>I never thought about it quite in the light of "maladaptive coping techniques". Yes, that is a good piece of insight. He is really having trouble believing the world is not a scary horrible place.

Just by having ONE parent or ONE adult stick up for him even in light of the insanity of the rest of your family will help. He needs to see you model the proper and appropriate behaviour to react to your brother's intrusions which continue to MASSIVELY overstep boundaries with respect to appropriate behaviour. He may still have unresolved issues with respect to men/male authority figures, but at least you sticking up for him will give him some confidence that he will be able to trust WOMEN and hopefully his ability to have a relationships with women will not be so shattered. When my fiance's abuse happened (outside the family) and he NEVER felt comfortable enough to tell his mother (he thought he'd be shamed or yelled at or blamed) and he's had anger issues with both men and women for his whole life.

Hopefully your son can find some kind of respectable male figure to develop trust in - if there is someone - a friend, etc. who he can develop a relationship with then that will be something.

>>>To make a long story short - I didn't have a garage sale on a day that he decided I should, and so he came over to my Mom's and my house and started a yelling tirade.

Believe you-me, I beleieve every friggin word of this .. sounds like the way my family gets along! I have even had fights with my fiance that have included head-being-slammed-in-door stuff....

It sounds very plausible to me that you were able to put up with/marry someone like your sons' father because you are so used to this type of behaviour.. its tough isnt it... I dated a lot of creeps because dammit I was so used to being treated like crap that I didnt even KNOW there could be anything better!!! And even now its hard when my fiance gets off on one of his tirades.. to actually acknowledge and recognize unacceptable behaviour because I am SO USED to crappy treatment!!! It's like.. days later when I go "hey .. wait a minute!! That was NOT OK!!"

Be very careful to educate yoru son as he gets older that all families are not like his, that what goes on in your family started long before he was born, and that you are DAMN sure that it will STOP at his generation, that he is loved, that he does not have to have a life from NOW ON like the one he has had in the past. Its the only thing that I do to keep myself insane, to make sure that my present and future is NOTHING like the manipulative, abusive and aggressive/violent past that I knew.

>>>His nightmares tell me that he is very concerned with feeling safe.

Yah thats the BIGGY deal for both me and my Fiance. And I have to admit that I"m not doing a good job of FEELING safe lately - last week my dad freaked out on the phone at me a few hours before we were to meet him and my mom for dinner.. I got to the dinner after a spat with my fiance (both of us feel unsafe around my dad and we start sparring) and I literally FROZE at the dinner table.... my dad's body language told me something was up and 5 minutes after getting there and being grilled about this that and the other thing (I was being put under a lot of presure to make some snap decisions about the wedding) I walked out of the restaurant, climbed in my car, locked the doors, and sobbed in my lap for about 45 minutes. I continued with that kind of behaviour with my fiance on Sunday.. he started yelling at me for something or another and I jumped out of the car when it was still moving, scraped the (*&(*& out of my leg, and ran into the house, locking him out. Later on when I let him into the house i wiped out down the stairs, smashing my knee.

I just cant handle right now ANYONE raising their voice to me.. I have given up on my ANGER reaction to what I perceive MIGHT be an abusive situation boiling (the whole "the best defence is a good offence" approach) but I now start to zone out or freak out or just run away (i used to fight, now I'm into "flight") and I still dont know what to do.

So yeah.. if a 35 year old woman can act this weird due to not "feeling safe" then I'm sure a young kid can certainly feel that way.. and that his behaviour will be motivated to ensuring he's "SAFE" for a long time.

>>>Tonight I told him that he is in control of whether he sees Daddy and whether or not he wants someone else there to make sure Daddy doesn't do anything he doesn't like.

That's awesome. I wish more moms (and court systems) would be this way for their kids and put their kids needs FIRST.

>>> It never even occured to me growing up to pretend to be the anti-hero. I always had to be the good one, and I know that I just took it for granted that I was a good person and I am so furious that his father took that self-assurance away, what a hideous crime. He told me he thinks he's bad because of Daddy hurting him - and, it shows in him saying "Daddy hates my bum". My gawd that says it all.

The truth is that Daddy hates HIMSELF.. over time hopefully when your son has had more time to advance and mentally develop he'll start to be able to put things together. But he will always struggle with issues of feeling "safe" - his behaviour will always somehow come out of the need to "control or be controlled".. and you will have to watch out for any maladaptive behaviour. He will have to get "reprogrammed" from the initial shock, which has such a powerful impact on so many things in abused people's brains. The logical deductions after abuse are so weird "this-then-therefore-that" they do have to be deconstructed and repaired.

>>>"I wish the same had been done with respect to my own father -who abused me for about 20 years, both verbally and psychologically, and my mother was a willing accomplice." - you know, I think that is just the most horrible thing.

It was. I try not to let it get me so angry.. my parents WERE where they WERE at the time, they couldnt have been any different. And in their own inept kind of way, I KNOW they love me, but they just relaly dont have a clue how to ACT right!

My mom too was so afraid of my dad, so afraid of losing him, she never stood up for her kids. She too was and in some ways still IS willing to put up with his shit. I refuse to allow him to say the shit that he does to me (he still tells her to fuck off on a regular basis, makes cracks and jokes about her appearance, picks on my brother, etc. he's really just a big "schoolyard bully".) and both my mom and my brother think I'm some kind of insane bitch for telling my dad to STUFF IT but so what. If its a choice between my sanity and their approval, I think I'll pick my sanity. Its hard though to continueally be put into that situation - that I have to stay calm when he's provoking me, to PROVE that its acceptable to say to my dad "ITS NOT ACCEPTABLE FOR YOU TO SAY SUCH AND SUCH TO ME or to talk to me in that threatening tone of voice". I do have to take my family in small doses. Its hard because I feel so lonely and abandoned so often, but what other choice do I have?

>>>It was just such as sick situation it made me feel physically ill to be around the Mom.

I bet the mom was also horribly abused at some point in her life too.. what else could convince her that she didnt deserve any better? Its a big friggin cycle.. it goes around and around and around.. and it takes GENERATIONS to get through it.

I think the only thing that in my situation that has been an acceptable antidote to anger at my family has been PITY. PITY that they still act that way, that they dont demand anything more for themselves and from each other, PITY that they feel they are so "lowly" that they have to act this way and accept this shit. If I feel compassion and pity then I understand them and feel sorry for them instead of being so angry. But it MUST be hard to handle the anger when you still are reminded on a daily basis of what your ex did to your son..

My fiance has done a lot for me in teaching me all about pity/compassion. He said that a lot of the time he feels more PITY for his abuser than ANGER... But mind you that came from YEARS of him going to Buddhist centres, learning all about meditation, anger management the Buddhist way, etc. etc. its the only way to let the overwhelming anger go.. to turn it into PITY.

>>>I have some thoughts on the effects of these things too. I think that abuse causes so much emotional damage, and one of the things it does is cause your subconscious to use up lots of it's "RAM" just while you're going about your daily living. So vast human resources are being used up spinning on this problem in the person's life.

Yes. the Dr. Phil book "self matters" talks about the effects of negative self talk on one's mental energy. Its EXHAUSTING to always have that going in the background and then try to get through your day. I thnk of my fiance and how his SA experience has eaten up so much of his mental energy that he dropped out of high school and has not been able to aspire to a higher calling in his career/professional life - he's been stuck in a low level dead end type job for about 14 years, only because he's not had the mental energy to think about going back to school, to take on new challenges. Its SO tough. I"m thinking with all I've already accomplished in my life I must be some kind of friggin genius to manage this middle-class life that i've got going and still battle with the crap that's going on in my subconscious.. I guess it shows around my belly with the 20 lbs of extra weight.. ugh...

>>>It's like, until it's resolved your subconscious mind is going to be going all over it, turning it over and over in your mind instead of doing so many positive things it would normally be doing for you- keeping you aware of other danger, huge chunks of intuition do not get processed through there because it is working on this #@$!.

Personally what it has affected me most is in my ability to sleep (and some anxiety-eating issues too). I am ok during the day but when it gets dark, and I am getting sleepy, my subconscious takes over and is constantly alert, guarding me from danger. And I am SOO tired. I've barely had a good night's sleep for more than a few days at a time in almost 20 years. I AM concerned about the effects of this, long term, on my health (i.e. heart attacks, cancer, etc.)

>>>So right there it is destroying potential as well as all the other more obvious ways. To be truly creative a person needs to have the most important needs of safety, food, shelter, security met.

Indeed - are you a student of Maslow? (Maslow's hierarchy of needs - significant concept in psychology) - many psychological theorists have LONG described how if someone doesn t have safety, security, shelter, food met FIRST they simply CANNOT go on to higher levels of self-actualization and achievement.

HOwever.. when I sometimes get mired into the "what if"s and think of my and my fiance's lost potential, I feel better when I look at what happened to us as a mirror of Jesus' "parable of the talents" in the Bible. Yes, while I and my fiance had the POTENTIAL to do so much more, but in life we were only handed 1 or 5 gold bars, not 10, that God STILL wants us to do great things with the 1 or 5 bars of gold that we were given, and not sit there and hide it away... that even though I didnt get as much potential as the other guy or girl that I should give up and get stuck in my self pity. There's still a LOT of living to do.. and just because our monetary situation may not be all that it could be because of our past, that our emotional situation can be as good or even better than many others.. that we can be the best people we can be - helpful, happy, healthy.. and we have to keep working to strive for that.

>>>I think we would be a lot farther in curing cancer if people were not abused and then told they are crazy, not supported and left to deal with it for the rest of their lives.

Yes .. I have been told by many people NOT in the know about what was going on in my life that I WAS crazy. And lately the more time I am away from my family and away from people who are abusive and aggressive I realize, that dammit, I am a completely NORMAL, SANE, LOVEABLE, PRODUCTIVE, INTELLIGENT and COMPLETELY CAPABLE person and what was going on for so long was my REACTION to the situation that I was in, and not ME! What a revelation to realize that my insane behaviour was just that! REACTIVE BEHAVIOUR and not who I really was!

That whole "false reactive self" has really set up a really distorted self concept that I've spent the better part of my adult life trying to combat. Now that I see who I REALLY am I actually like her, and am having a lot more fun and feel a lot more free of the demons that I carried within me.

>>>So, I think yes, unequivocally you would feel more secure, you would believe in yourself more, you would accomplish more and you would sleep at night (this is a severe problem with me as well, starting with when I started realizing that there was some kind of serious problem in the relationship with my ex-h)

I hear ya.. I'm back to the sleeping pills

>>>I think learning to channel all of that stuff into something positive does help, but it takes a lot more energy than just accomplishing and feeling safe in the first place.

It does. You really do have to come to some kind of "higher level" of understanding to make sense of abuse and its effects. if you can push through it and find a way to deal with it it DOES make you a much more enlightened and understanding person.

>>>I don't want my son's potential drained by grappling with the whys and wherefores of his father's sick behavior. He keeps talking about growing up, getting bigger than his Dad and then going and throwing him in the trash.

I think part of him will always be angry, and somehow he'll have to come to terms with what happened to him, somehow, sometime, for himself, within himself. HE will have to do some definition of what happened, for himself, when he's ready.

>> I try to tell him that the thing to do is call the police and get people who's job it is to take care of these things to handle it while he goes his way being happy and building a good life and learning, exploring and being curious.

That makes sense about the child being protected after the abuse. I don't know how people survive it when the parent says something dismissive and then treats the person like what happened doesn't matter.

When my abuse started I was a bit reluctant to fully co-operate, but I wasn't in much of a postion to refuse these two boys who were 2 years older than me. I was 11yo.So they used a show of force, and with 3 or 4 more of their associates spent an afternoon beating and raping me.

The headmaster of the boarding school found out waht happened on the same evening - I eventually told him when dragged in front of him suspected of fighting and in posession of the 10 cigarretes they gave me in 'payment'The bastard didn't believe me, he believed them. It was possibly down to the strength in numbers thing when they stuck to whatever story they told him, but a lot of it was ( I'm certain ) down to saving his precious reputation and the 'name' of the shit-hole school!I can remember a phrase he used as though he spoke it only yesterday, and not 40 years ago."Lloyd, you are a persistant liar" and then I was caned for lying, and again for smoking. Six strokes for each offence.

The effect of this betrayal lives with me still, and I'm not doing that badly in my healing.The effect it had until I decided to seek help was enormous. I had NO respect for any kind of authority, I spent most of my adult life arguing and fighting with anyone who dared to excercise authority over me.And the main reason was ( possibly) that I had no role models at all in my most formitive years.

I grew up in a cold family and lived in an isolated spot in the country. They loved me for sure, but didn't know how to show it. My brother is 8 years older, so I had nobody to play with out of school except myself, and no extended family, they live miles away.Boarding school wasn't good either, in those days teaching skills were limited to "fear and loathing" we feared the teachers, they loathed us.

And so it continued through college and my first jobs. I was thrown off courses, sacked from jobs blah blah blah ....

But where do you find suitable role models for your son?Well I think you're doing a super job so far, the things that scare him you stand up against, and tell him why. Kids understand a lot more than we credit them with sometimes and explaining our actions to them as best we can must be good for them.

And what I've found is that the 'better' I get the more my circle of friends changes, and I don't mind admitting that at 51yo I now recognise some of these people as role models, better late than never eh?Maybe you will find this happening as well? I just moved on from many people I knew, I didn't fall out with them or reject them, just moved on because I was changeing my thinking and behaviour. I suppose I became stronger and sought out people more on my wavelength - not deliberately, it just happened.

What you are doing is wonderful, I believe that the cycle of abuse, whichever kind it is, will be broken by you and your supporters because you are making a HUGE effort to learn and change.What more does he need as a role model?

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.Henry David Thoreau

Originally posted by Lloydy: Lori [QUOTE] What you are doing is wonderful, I believe that the cycle of abuse, whichever kind it is, will be broken by you and your supporters because you are making a HUGE effort to learn and change.

My four year old likes to play "anti-hero" too. For Halloween she specifically asked to dress up as something she's afraid of, because then she wouldn't be afraid of it anymore. And I had a young cousin who did the same around this age--he always wanted to play the villain in make-believe games and he would re-enact the scenes from Disney movies where it looked like the bad guy was going to win. I think for some kids it is just a way of bringing larger-than-life fears back to a life-sized level and getting some control over them.

About your brother, that sounds like a terrible situation and I'm sorry that your son had to be heartbroken, losing another "dad" like that. But I don't think it is "too late" for your son to find role models. When we can't find everything we need in one place, sometimes we absorb it in bits and pieces, without really noticing. Something in us seeks it out, and soaks it up, while we're going about our lives. I couldn't name one "female role model" from my childhood, but when I think about how I learned to be a woman I see a collage of faces... most of those women never even knew they were teaching me something.

But I don't think it is "too late" for your son to find role models. When we can't find everything we need in one place, sometimes we absorb it in bits and pieces, without really noticing. Something in us seeks it out, and soaks it up, while we're going about our lives. I couldn't name one "female role model" from my childhood, but when I think about how I learned to be a woman I see a collage of faces... most of those women never even knew they were teaching me something.

Just tonight I've been talking to my wife Linda about just this.We were talking about a young guy I work with ( 32yo ) who's getting married tomorrow, and whether in 20 - 30 years time he'll be talking about me in the way I talk about the old guys I worked with as a young man - the crazy old bastards who unwittingly taught me so much.I got to reminiscing about Jack. He was an ex RAF Sergeant who could talk ducks off the water, he knew absolutely nothing about the job he was doing, as my boss. I thought at the time he was f****g useless, but on reflection the guy was a genius.What got him the job was smooth talking and bullshit, and it carried him through the job perfectly - for the technical stuff he had me.But Jacks wealth of experience and love of life did strike a chord within me, and I grew to like the old reprobate, we had many great drinking sessions and lots of laughs. We cheated on customers, lied and bullshitted our employer, but got away with it.Was he a good role model?

Well he wasn't a classic role model for sure, and the things I learned as a young man in my early 20's weren't always considered lawful, ethical, or even decent at times. But I did learn some smart moves, and some great survival techniques.Did I realise it? did I hell !Would I recommend him, or someone like him as a role model? I won't answer that one

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.Henry David Thoreau

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