There's a question I have for people who believe that humans are not affecting Earth's climate. This has nothing to do with their arguments surrounding the reason why Earth's climate is changing. Scientists who believe in the existence of man-made global warming make up a clear cut majority. Is it even possible that an entire field is being paid off by an industry that has practically just left the womb? If this is not the case, then what is? Are they all stupid and gullible?

Prior to World War II, there were peer reviewed scientific studies, widely accepted by the scientific community at the time, that black brains were unsuited to the rigors and control required to control an aircraft in combat situations.

Most of us would call that absurd, and rightly so, but it was the common opinion of scientists at the time.

I suspect they feel that the common opinion today is as wrong as that common opinion was then.

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I have a feeling people who deny man-made global warming (including scientists) are doing so because people don't like to believe in bad news. If there's a way out, a way to deny the bad news and believe it's all right and we can't do anything about what's happening, people are going to jump on it.

Metanih wrote:If you deny man-made global warming, then you are simply doing it for idiocy, or greed. There is no other options, as even if it wasn't true, then there is no harm in trying to prevent it.

Several trillions of dollars of harm, if we're looking for complete carbon neutrality. The possible cost of the modern economy.

Not that mind you the consequences of not acting aren't higher, sustainability should be our aim though, not stopping global warming, at this point, even if we could stop it, the actions required of us are far beyond our actual capabilities, with the science available today. Miracles may happen, so long as the science is focused that way, but actual requirements are so drastic very few could realistically implement them.

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Metanih wrote:If you deny man-made global warming, then you are simply doing it for idiocy, or greed. There is no other options, as even if it wasn't true, then there is no harm in trying to prevent it.

Several trillions of dollars of harm, if we're looking for complete carbon neutrality. The possible cost of the modern economy.

Not that mind you the consequences of not acting aren't higher, sustainability should be our aim though, not stopping global warming, at this point, even if we could stop it, the actions required of us are far beyond our actual capabilities, with the science available today. Miracles may happen, so long as the science is focused that way, but actual requirements are so drastic very few could realistically implement them.

So money (even in the triliions) suddenly becomes more important than the entire population (human and animal) of Earth?

There are a great many people who make a great deal of money by the way things are. They don't want to possibly loose that. They employ "spin doctors" to stave of possible changes.

Luckily; people in other nations are addressing it. The US will continue it's growing trend of catching up.

* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

Galloism wrote:Prior to World War II, there were peer reviewed scientific studies, widely accepted by the scientific community at the time, that black brains were unsuited to the rigors and control required to control an aircraft in combat situations.

Most of us would call that absurd, and rightly so, but it was the common opinion of scientists at the time.

Speak for your bloody self.

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There are a great many people who make a great deal of money by the way things are. They don't want to possibly loose that. They employ "spin doctors" to stave of possible changes.

Luckily; people in other nations are addressing it. The US will continue it's growing trend of catching up.

You have done a great job of posting what I believe in a way I didn't think of. I think all that's quoted above is true. It's like a cigar company using doctors to tell people cigar's aren't unhealthy.

Last edited by New Heathera on Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Galloism wrote:Prior to World War II, there were peer reviewed scientific studies, widely accepted by the scientific community at the time, that black brains were unsuited to the rigors and control required to control an aircraft in combat situations.

Most of us would call that absurd, and rightly so, but it was the common opinion of scientists at the time.

Speak for your bloody self.

Well, I did say "most".

I would say that, given there are a number of black combat pilots, they must be clearly capable.

However, this is not the topic of this thread.

Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.

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The Merchant Republics wrote:Several trillions of dollars of harm, if we're looking for complete carbon neutrality. The possible cost of the modern economy.

Not that mind you the consequences of not acting aren't higher, sustainability should be our aim though, not stopping global warming, at this point, even if we could stop it, the actions required of us are far beyond our actual capabilities, with the science available today. Miracles may happen, so long as the science is focused that way, but actual requirements are so drastic very few could realistically implement them.

So money (even in the triliions) suddenly becomes more important than the entire population (human and animal) of Earth?

Money sustains the entire human population of the Earth. When I speak of "trillions of dollars of harm" I don't mean, us all collectively putting $10 dollars into the save the world fund. I'm talking about production dollars. As in, billions of dollars that once were spent on many things not just luxuries but indeed necessities will have to be spent instead on saving the earth.

For us Westerners, this is easy, and in the West, the targets for global warming reduction are achievable in a real sense, the cost would be mostly to our luxuries and only for a short time. However for the developing world, the sort of things that sustainability requires will mean that the less not more of the world's poor will have access to electricity, motor vehicles, regular food supplies, cheap and affordable commercial goods.

Unfortunately if only the rich developed world reaches our targets, the world will still be boiled by the poor developing nations. They can't realistically implement Kyoto, they can't realistically stop their emmissions without high, very high human cost.

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We are the premiere of civilization, the beacon of liberty, the font of prosperity and the ever illuminating light of culture in this hellish universe. In short: Elitist Wicked Cultured Free Market Anarchists living in a Diesel-Deco World.

You make questionable claims and other scientists will jump all over you.

* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

Galloism wrote:Prior to World War II, there were peer reviewed scientific studies, widely accepted by the scientific community at the time, that black brains were unsuited to the rigors and control required to control an aircraft in combat situations.

Most of us would call that absurd, and rightly so, but it was the common opinion of scientists at the time.

It's not really a question of whether or not we're contributing to climate change; it's a question of how much. The simple physics of emissions and the greenhouse effect say that we are undoubtedly doing so, and the amount of emissions we are giving off as a species is very high even in comparison to other events deniers like to say, such as volcanoes and wild megafauna, neither of which give off the same amount we do. We are additionally depriving the world of organisms that control the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. I draw my own lines.

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I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

Aersoldorf wrote:I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

Meh. He makes for good fluff reading on a plane trip.

Is it the usual where he starts spinning a yarn and then it feels like he gets bored with it and rushes to finish the story?

Last edited by The Black Forrest on Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

Aersoldorf wrote:I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.

“I believe that it was really due to Lorenzo that I am alive today; and not so much for his material aid, as for his having constantly reminded me by his presence, by his natural and plain manner of being good, that there still existed a just world outside our own, something and someone still pure and whole, not corrupt, not savage, extraneous to hatred and terror; something difficult to define, a remote possibility of good, but for which it was worth surviving…But Lorenzo was a man; his humanity was pure and uncontaminated, he was outside this world of negation. Thanks to Lorenzo, I managed not to forget that I myself was a man.”

Aersoldorf wrote:I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.

Oh I don't know. Andromeda strain was ok.

* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

Trotskylvania wrote:Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.

Oh I don't know. Andromeda strain was ok.

Clearly he needs to stick to fiction and avoid all allegory.

“I believe that it was really due to Lorenzo that I am alive today; and not so much for his material aid, as for his having constantly reminded me by his presence, by his natural and plain manner of being good, that there still existed a just world outside our own, something and someone still pure and whole, not corrupt, not savage, extraneous to hatred and terror; something difficult to define, a remote possibility of good, but for which it was worth surviving…But Lorenzo was a man; his humanity was pure and uncontaminated, he was outside this world of negation. Thanks to Lorenzo, I managed not to forget that I myself was a man.”

Aersoldorf wrote:I highly recommend State of Fear by Michael Crichton. He explains the many problems surrounding the issue and points out problems surrounding the measurements and explains why scientists have a vested interest in producing data that supports global warming even if it isn't really happening

Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.

Gore is an oaf. Global warming is not happening/effected by man. No amount of socialist taxing schemes + hypnotizing in schools is going to change that.

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Like I said he is good fluff for long plane trips. Congo, sphere, jurassic park, eaters of the dead, twister, a few others. Something to read once and toss......

* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

Trotskylvania wrote:Crichton is a hack, and global warming is happening. No amount of conspiracy theory bullshit is going to change that.

Gore is an oaf. Global warming is not happening/effected by man. No amount of socialist taxing schemes + hypnotizing in schools is going to change that.

No one mentioned Al Gore until you brought him up bucko. Gore's oafishness has no bearing on the discussion, as he's a celebrity, not a scientist. The real scientists who study weather and climate have amassed mountains of data that point to one conclusion: climate change is happening and we're driving it. The only thing left is a discussion of how to proceed to mitigate the damage.

“I believe that it was really due to Lorenzo that I am alive today; and not so much for his material aid, as for his having constantly reminded me by his presence, by his natural and plain manner of being good, that there still existed a just world outside our own, something and someone still pure and whole, not corrupt, not savage, extraneous to hatred and terror; something difficult to define, a remote possibility of good, but for which it was worth surviving…But Lorenzo was a man; his humanity was pure and uncontaminated, he was outside this world of negation. Thanks to Lorenzo, I managed not to forget that I myself was a man.”