The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 67

On December 01 2018 10:50 ZeKk84 wrote:Hey guys. been off from the scene a year. Just wonder how's adept/phoenix comb is still playable against terran? Haven't found anything recent whence I googled it.

mehwidows mines just burn everything walks

also marauders now become way more effective dealing with adepts and light units due to the reverted single damage.

In current state the game is really similiar to hots imhoYou can't take anymore a fast third, because you need resources to buy units that trade bad vs tier 1 terran units, and you need to rush asap T3 units (colossus, distruptors. storms) to simple survive in the mid game.

Hey guys. In PvP I'm opening 2 gate expo into Stargate. How do I defend against a proxy 4 gate all in. Alternatively, what time should I be scouting the enemy natural for an expand?

"If your opponent is doing a lot of tricky stuff and doing a lot of damage you can often win by simply focusing on your macro. Most of the time when they are doing that stuff to you they are messing up their own macro back home." - Axslav

On December 17 2018 13:50 Savko wrote:Hey guys. In PvP I'm opening 2 gate expo into Stargate. How do I defend against a proxy 4 gate all in. Alternatively, what time should I be scouting the enemy natural for an expand?

IMO, 4 gate is easier to defend with a robo than with a stargate, but you would go voids (must micro to keep alive) and shield batteries along with stalkers, or sentry FF on ramp to fight half the army at a time if you didn't expand or half to cancel your expo.

Expanding is a weird subject in PvP. Best recommendation is to check to see if they make their third (28) pylon on the low-ground at natural, this is first hint that they will be expanding. This will usually be made right before their first set of gateway units pop out of their 2 gate. Problem is, most 1 base all-ins STILL make that pylon there to fake the expo, so be diligent with your scouting to confirm it gets placed down. You can confirm with either a second probe scout (will most likely get killed by their first units), adept shade if you opened adepts, or the hallucination scout from opening sentry/stalker (this is currently the most standard/common opener).

If youre having issues in PvP, best recommendation is to check out the build of the week archive on the allthingsprotoss subreddit, Gemini does an excellent job detailing write-ups for all build types in all matchups.

Let us know if you have any questions, im sure someone will take a look at this forum in less than a week.

Hi, so I see a lot of discussion around PvP in the new patch that "SG is the only viable way to go". I do like SG and have been doing SG openings this ladder, however, if the opponent opens with a a bunch of stalkers (4+ at each mineral line) and either robo or blink, I can't seem to be able to make the Phoenixes do something. How should I punish this "bad openner" from the opponent? We are talking 3700 MMR on EU.

On December 25 2018 01:07 AshenCZ wrote:Hi, so I see a lot of discussion around PvP in the new patch that "SG is the only viable way to go". I do like SG and have been doing SG openings this ladder, however, if the opponent opens with a a bunch of stalkers (4+ at each mineral line) and either robo or blink, I can't seem to be able to make the Phoenixes do something. How should I punish this "bad openner" from the opponent? We are talking 3700 MMR on EU.

SG is not about doing damage early game. Definitely not with phoenixes. If you open double oracle (which may be risky though) you should do damage for sure, but phoenixes are meant to take complete map control and safely transition to the mid-lategame with a great advantage against robo-openings. They go for 4-5 stalkers in the mineral line? That's what you want from them, you just safely transition to robo yourself and from then you got an option to go either classic zealot/immortal or disruptor. Both is good because your opponent gonna have problems with expanding (need to defend 3 mineral lines) and cant harrass you, cant leave his base, cant do shit. Use phoenixes to poke his mineral lines to keep him pinned. A good window to do damage (that is not even needed to succeed) is when he is expanding to 3rd base, or even in mid/late game when he looses focus and move out on the map. Another great thing about phoenixes is that you counter his attempts to go disruptors that are really strong again (after the patch), while you are free to go for them yourself.

My solution to this double stargate phoenix trend has just been to immortal/stalker/sentry all-in quickly off two bases with a proxy pylon in case they snipe my warp prism, before the phoenix count can get high enough to be a threat. If they've already spent the gas on two stargates and a few phoenixes, they're going to be lacking in other areas. They won't have enough phoenixes to actually kill everything, and their ground army will be too weak to deal with immortals and stalkers. If they instead go for my probes when I attack, I target their pylons, probes and nexuses, and force a basetrade. At worst, it's usually a draw unless they somehow manage to get enough units out to take out my entire base. And no, I have no issue with forcing someone willingly going for one of the most boring compositions in the game to wait out for draw conditions.

I absolutely refuse to play this mass phoenix versus mass phoenix stuff. I tried it for a few games. It's not fun and seems to often come down to who got luckier with an engagement. I'd rather it be the old 4gate versus 4gate PvP than this stuff. At least that was fun and the games didn't take forever. This phoenix stuff reminds me of WoL mass roach versus mass roach ZvZ.

On December 25 2018 01:07 AshenCZ wrote:Hi, so I see a lot of discussion around PvP in the new patch that "SG is the only viable way to go". I do like SG and have been doing SG openings this ladder, however, if the opponent opens with a a bunch of stalkers (4+ at each mineral line) and either robo or blink, I can't seem to be able to make the Phoenixes do something. How should I punish this "bad openner" from the opponent? We are talking 3700 MMR on EU.

SG is not about doing damage early game. Definitely not with phoenixes. If you open double oracle (which may be risky though) you should do damage for sure, but phoenixes are meant to take complete map control and safely transition to the mid-lategame with a great advantage against robo-openings. They go for 4-5 stalkers in the mineral line? That's what you want from them, you just safely transition to robo yourself and from then you got an option to go either classic zealot/immortal or disruptor. Both is good because your opponent gonna have problems with expanding (need to defend 3 mineral lines) and cant harrass you, cant leave his base, cant do shit. Use phoenixes to poke his mineral lines to keep him pinned. A good window to do damage (that is not even needed to succeed) is when he is expanding to 3rd base, or even in mid/late game when he looses focus and move out on the map. Another great thing about phoenixes is that you counter his attempts to go disruptors that are really strong again (after the patch), while you are free to go for them yourself.

Thank you for the detaield post! How many phoenixes is too many at that point? If I do see a Robo/Council and no SG, should I stop at around 4, or go nuts to like 6?

On December 25 2018 04:36 Ben... wrote:My solution to this double stargate phoenix trend has just been to immortal/stalker/sentry all-in quickly off two bases with a proxy pylon in case they snipe my warp prism, before the phoenix count can get high enough to be a threat. If they've already spent the gas on two stargates and a few phoenixes, they're going to be lacking in other areas. They won't have enough phoenixes to actually kill everything, and their ground army will be too weak to deal with immortals and stalkers. If they instead go for my probes when I attack, I target their pylons, probes and nexuses, and force a basetrade. At worst, it's usually a draw unless they somehow manage to get enough units out to take out my entire base. And no, I have no issue with forcing someone willingly going for one of the most boring compositions in the game to wait out for draw conditions.

I absolutely refuse to play this mass phoenix versus mass phoenix stuff. I tried it for a few games. It's not fun and seems to often come down to who got luckier with an engagement. I'd rather it be the old 4gate versus 4gate PvP than this stuff. At least that was fun and the games didn't take forever. This phoenix stuff reminds me of WoL mass roach versus mass roach ZvZ.

Well... 2 SG is not standard and you definitely can counter it if you scout in time. Not sure about robo plays though, any kind of blink all-in should do better tbh. The real problem comes with standard SG openings, because they can't be really punished in any reliable way.

On December 25 2018 01:07 AshenCZ wrote:Hi, so I see a lot of discussion around PvP in the new patch that "SG is the only viable way to go". I do like SG and have been doing SG openings this ladder, however, if the opponent opens with a a bunch of stalkers (4+ at each mineral line) and either robo or blink, I can't seem to be able to make the Phoenixes do something. How should I punish this "bad openner" from the opponent? We are talking 3700 MMR on EU.

SG is not about doing damage early game. Definitely not with phoenixes. If you open double oracle (which may be risky though) you should do damage for sure, but phoenixes are meant to take complete map control and safely transition to the mid-lategame with a great advantage against robo-openings. They go for 4-5 stalkers in the mineral line? That's what you want from them, you just safely transition to robo yourself and from then you got an option to go either classic zealot/immortal or disruptor. Both is good because your opponent gonna have problems with expanding (need to defend 3 mineral lines) and cant harrass you, cant leave his base, cant do shit. Use phoenixes to poke his mineral lines to keep him pinned. A good window to do damage (that is not even needed to succeed) is when he is expanding to 3rd base, or even in mid/late game when he looses focus and move out on the map. Another great thing about phoenixes is that you counter his attempts to go disruptors that are really strong again (after the patch), while you are free to go for them yourself.

Thank you for the detaield post! How many phoenixes is too many at that point? If I do see a Robo/Council and no SG, should I stop at around 4, or go nuts to like 6?

Pretty much what Probe said, anything between 4 and 6 is a healthy number.

p.s. Overall yes, PvP is in a terrible state after the patch. With sentry buff, you are pretty much safe against everything if you go SG. It was already meta for the previous year, now it's just out of hand. Noone ever goes DTs cause they are so easy to scout with sentry. So my guess is that they should actually revert the mana cost since it didn't impact pvz or pvt in any positive way. Or do something about SG units. Like adding an armour tag to both oracle and phoenix... sounds bad, i know.

On December 25 2018 08:46 AusProbe wrote:The idea if you are opening stalker sentry is your hallucination will see their tech, and if they aren't going sg, you open double oracle.

But if you do get stuck going Phoenix, 6 is the max number, 4-5 is common, 3 is minimum.

AusProbe is right in what he said , but I would also like to add that if you see a twilight with your initial halucination you should get imortals out as fast as possible. And you should stop at 4 phoenixes in this specific case.

High quality noob friendly stream available at https://www.twitch.tv/gmlight

Btw, i dunno why does everyone chrono a zealot? It's just wasted 100 minerals. You never ever make use of zealot early in PvT. And it delays your probe production. Just relax, realize he is putting himself behind, and chrono a stalker. Yes, you would have you nexi a bit later, but zealot, seriously, is a complete overreaction. Same applies to proxy barracks. Zealot just puts you behind. Forget about it.

Meh.. I really doubt sending any core unit to his natural would make any difference or delay his cc whatsoever. Especially when his reaper is about to hop in your main. The truth is you don't need to react to ebay blocks in any way at all, because it doesnt put terran ahead.

Don't forget an earlier third pylon so you don't get supply blocked on 31.

So you are saying, I should take my third as my natural? ... Nah, thank you!

Man, delaying your natural is not something you need to worry about. The difference between a 21 and a 26 nexi is minimal (in eco). Just chrono probes like crazy and don't get supply blocked. You can test it yourself in a custom game. It's literally 100 minerals difference in a long run. But building a zealot doubles it, that's true.

Meh.. I really doubt sending any core unit to his natural would make any difference or delay his cc whatsoever. Especially when his reaper is about to hop in your main.

Tell that to zest who rush core to get his first adept into the terran face almost every single game.The e-bay delay the cc even further = more time to kill the vcs building it (assuming the cc is low ground but you should be able to scout that with your probe)

Yeah, im gonna say that chrono zealot is 100% correct in case of proxy reaper, and is also correct in case of Ebay block. The cyber unit across the map is also USUALLY very good, unless you open sentry first, adept shade gives you good scouting info and can delay CC, and adept into stalker with chrono can let you send the adept across immediately and still have the stalker to defend the reaper.Especially on these new maps that let you wall out the reaper, its fantastic.

And theres a pretty noticeable difference between 20 cyber before 20 nexus, theres gonna be a MUCH more noticeable difference between 20 and 26 nexus. I wouldn't go for a 21 nexus at any point, theres no reason not to be as optimal as possible.