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"I was going to dissect the rest of your post point by point, but since you seem to be making the same point again and again, I'm not sure it would add any value. For the record, we're talking about environmentalism in the context of global warming, not WMD, Iraq, OBL, or any other such thing. I have no idea how you got there or what parallel you're trying to draw, but it's some of the most poorly crafted straw men I've yet encountered - and I've been on the Internets a little while now, so that's saying something."

Point is that where some were OK surrendering liberty for security others seem to be ok surrendering liberty for ecology... And both with weak if any base..

I saw bah to both constructs...

If a man is mistakenly arrested and executed for a murder he did not commit but he would have otherwise raped someone the next night is that a good thing? Its a complex question and it is logically the equivalent of saying 'if the Government increased power, taxed the poor, and hurt the economy in a recession on faulty info' but the air is cleaner is it a good thing.

Don't piss and moan because you did not like the comparison I took something you did not like (iraq) to shine a light on something you were ignoring and that is reduction of liberty on lies/bad information is never OK just because of some ancillary nice effects

"Even if global warming is a purely natural phenomenon, even if it didn't exist at all and this was all just a natural fluctuation, the idea of global warming has been very good for us as a whole."

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Lies don't breed good they only breed lies...

-Even if we did not find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, even if they did not exist at all and it was just poor intelligence, the Iraq War action has been very good for us as a whole.-

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"It's encouraged an ecological awareness, and an understanding that our actions do have an impact on the world around us beyond the immediate."

Lies have to justify the horrible incursions on liberty and truth that take place in their name

-Saddam Hussein was a dictator who had to be removed and now he is, understanding that Iraq is on the cusp of becoming a freer nation will impact the whole middle east and the world around us beyond the immediate-

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"This is progress that we need to make regardless of whether it's attributed to global warming, global cooling, global purpling, or the smell of some guy's socks in Kansas."

Lies eventually seek to justify themselves with a 'ends justify the means' philosophy

-The progress that needs to be made in dictatorships and theocracies regardless of weather it's attributed to weapons of mass destruction, national interest, foreign trade, or even oil-

-We are in Iraq we have to commit to leaving only when things are stable, we just cant say to ourselves well we were wrong no WMD lets put together a timetable for out.-

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"I've long been suspicious that mankind would be able to have this sort of effect in this amount of time for reasons which are too long to go into here, but I nonetheless support the progress that the moniker of global warming promotes.Even if our reasons turn out to be wrong wrong, the result is right."

Lairs seek to glorify themselves in their lie

-Even though we did not catch OBL, even though there were no WMD I nonetheless support taking the fight to the terrorist-

"There are many reasons to migrate from fossil fuels, the most compelling being that they're going to run out very soon."

Yes and No

Oil is past peak but there is enough Coal in nations like the US and China to go ahead using fossil fuels for some time. Still I agree that there are many reasons I would say the most compelling is independence and an ability to stay away from getting entangled in foreign affairs.

"The changing climate is also a worry (which we wouldn't want to encourage to change faster than it already is),"

Except for several years its been cooling. The problem with global warming/climate change is that when you look at a macro level (thousands of years) we are not experiencing anything out of the ordinary when you look at the micro, one hundred or so, the sky is falling. When you hand a politician the stick that say 'we have to do this or we are all going to die' they will abuse it for their own power. This was true with Iraq and 9-11 and it is true for Health care, and its true for climate change.

While Al Gore and other's use their carbon indulgences to consume more power than an average 20 American households the house is passing cap and trade that will disproportionately hurt the poor in a recession and in the process expand government power over the individule. 'Global warming' by which the left means anthropogenic global warming allows them to act with an urgency that breaks common sense and government accountability.

"but it's not the only reason, and the money spent on migrating to alternative energy sources certainly wouldn't be wasted."

And you know this how? it could very well be wasted! That's not to say the endeavor would not be worth the attempt anyway but when you say it can't fail you will (1) throw good money after bad like the attempted second stimulus, or (2) lie about success like saying even though unemployment is now over 10 percent nationally that you have 'saved' jobs when you promised you plan would keep unemployment under 8.

"Americans were free to elect FDR four times; and the legislatures of the United States are free to change the Constitution to allow future voters to do so. It is not treason to advocate that this be done."

But it is treason to advocate an unconstitutional method to do so. Maybe some folks wanted Bush to have a third term (there have to be a hand full of crackpots out there). If Bush said 'I'm going to hold a referendum to change the constitution on an up or down vote' that would be treason. If the supreme court told him no and he went ahead anyway that would be treason. If he fired a general for not helping him and would not reinstate despite a court order that would be treason.

Honduras just dodged another tin pot dictator and they did it with no violence save ejecting the would be king from the nation.

http://www.slate.com/id/1007531/"News reports say that President Clinton's brother, Roger, is considering invoking his Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination when he is called to testify before the New York grand jury investigating Bill Clinton's pardons."

FireStormZ (1315639) writes "Michigan's John Conyers (D) is sponsoring this "Fair Copyright in Research Works Act" and not surprisingly when Discover Magazine did a bit of research into where Conyers was getting his campaign contributions, it turned out that he is getting 4 times more contributions from scientific journal publishers than anyone else in Congress. Why is that significant? Read on, McDuff...

Conyers' "The Fair Copyright in Research Works Act" will make it illegal for government agencies like the NIH and other scientists (such as those at universities that take federal money) to put scientific research online for the public to access for free. And guess where Conyers wants to force all research papers to be put? That's right, in journals published by scientific journal publishers. You know, the same ones that gave 4 times more campaign cash to Conyers than they do to everyone else?"