I am curious as I came into a discussion with someone in game about his. How do you -kill- kill a Death knight in RP?

There was someone who told me that they could bleed out, that poisons affect them ect, and continued to say that this was stated in Warcraft 1, 2 and 3. I could however not find any reference to this at all.

So, I am asking you lot who knows more, how DO you kill a death knight lore wise, and please list sources where it is stated?

I have always thought it was severing of head\fire which was the ways to go? And even then they could possibly by resurrected by a good necromancer?

I recently made a DK, and when freeing Koltira from the Scarlet Crusade I noticed that he said he was -bleeding- internally and had several broken bones, this in turn seemed to hurt him (my own perspective though), but certainly limited his strenght, both physical aswell as magical.

You kill kill a death knight like you kill kill anyone. You have to kill the body (standard principles apply with DKs as with all undead. Cutting off the head/fire/holy is typically the best way to do it, yup, though enough 'normal' damage can also do it), and if you want to make sure they can never be resurrected, you have to destroy or otherwise prevent the soul from being recovered.

As for bleeding and such... some undead can bleed (if they haven't been drained), but typically their hearts don't beat and they can't bleed out (and even if they could bleed out, they don't really need the blood... mostly). That being said, undead are driven by unholy energy. Wounds to the body does weaken those animating forces, up to the point of death. So you do not need to just cut off the head... enough physical trauma could kill them. The main problem is that they can -endure- stuff that would be instantly fatal to mortals, even if it still weakens them. To paraphrase DnD rules, they cannot die due to sudden massive damage (I've had Dru survive a ballista bolt impaled through the chest before, though it did prompt me to make a 'death' roll. Non-undead wouldn't even get a roll, a wound like that would be instantly fatal), nor do they typically suffer critical hits (slitting a DK's throat or stabbing them in the heart isn't going to be fatal by itself). You just have to keep beating away at them until they stop moving.

Essentially, with most undead, it's usually not a matter of where you hit, so much as it is a matter of how much you hit. Though cutting off the head is usually a good option, and fire typically causes 'lots of hits' really quickly since the undead is usually quite flammable. Holy energy attacks on the other hand attack the animating forces directly.

As for making sure they can't get raised... if the DK is going with the vampiric runeblade/soulblade idea, this means you'll want to destroy that. That will release the soul into the Spirit Realm, where it will likely face oblivion in time (as seen with Arthas). If they aren't using that type of runeblade, then simply killing them will release the soul (unless they've made an anchor at some point). Powerful necromancers or even divine casters could retrieve the soul and revive them, but, like with most resurrections, the longer they are dead, the less possible it becomes.

"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

Lexgrad wrote:Arthas's fate is not so clear cut, but yes More or less that.

The Sylvanas story shows it from Sylvanas' own perspective, she likewise saw only blackness. So I'm of the assumption that all undead/corrupted souls only find endless nothingness or outright oblivion after death.

"Sylvanas's short story on the official website reveals that after the Lich King's death, she committed suicide and found herself in a void where her soul was being torn apart. Arthas was there, and he had been reduced to the equivalent of a little boy huddling in the corner and crying. Then the val'kyr revived her, forming their bond that comes into play in Silverpine. "

Break the Unholy magic and you break the DK.

Yup. I always make Mana Burns/Mana Drains/Anti-Magic Fields/etc harm Dru, based on that rationale. Undead are animated by unholy magic, so, like you say, break the magic and you break the DK.

"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

Undead: body is preserved in the state of decay, muscles continue functioning and are supple, soul is anchored to the body.

When you kill a ghoul in Plaguewood, you whack it with a spell/hammer and the body breaks apart and in that moment the soul of the Darrowshire warrior within is released. That means that simply breaking the body is enough to break the necromantic magic in Ghoul's case.

How to retro-justify that? Put on your magic goggles and look at a ghoul. You will probably see a complicated weave of magical patterns running through its body, surrounding and affecting the flow of life-energy (chakras) and being the 'necromantic spell' that ressurects it. If you break the ghoul, the magical weave is disrupted as well at at some point stops functioning.

So, how to kill a death knight? Shotgun blow to the head will take care of the body!

1. Blunt weapons are very effective, since they break the bones which reduces strength and impairs DK's mobility. Breaking the spine is equivalent of a K.O blow, since DK is pretty much immobolized (for pure mechanical reasons, nothing about neurology here). Blows to the pelvis and shoulderblades are another favourite. It also is worth noting that a good hammerblow can break bones despite armor. (Unless the DK is wearing the Undentable, shock-absorbing Armor of Magic)

2. Bladed weapons have limited effect. It is suggested in several quests (old Fenris Island, most notably) that some alchemy goes into necromancy. Undead might have an alchemical embalming fluid for blood. See it as machine oil+antifreeze that keeps them from going stiff and/or rotting. So cutting undead will release the fluid, which will (overtime) result in stiffness and rot. Rigor Mortis (stifness) begins 3 hours after death (or fluid leaking out of a limb) and culminates after 12.

3. All damage harms the whole magical pattern of animation as it distrups the flesh/bone to which it is tied. See it as fraying the edges of the carpet. At one pont the whole weave falls apart. So once you do enough damage overall, the undead might just collapse.

4. Break the magic and you break the DK. Already stated.

5. I think skilled alchemists should be able to make DK-poison, some anti-agent to embalming fluid that really mess a DK up if administered.

6. Explosives. Blow them to pieces.

7. Destroy the soul (if you have soulblade). Northrend Landgren chain suggests that a soul *gasp* is destroyable. I really hate it from theological p.o.v, but its true .

Sources, people! I need to know -where- these things are stated. Quests, a wiki, a book, a cinematic?

Opinions and all is great, but I asked for sources to these things

Some say I play my DK too OP, other say I play her perfect, and I am tired of Q.Q'ing, and would like a source I can refer them to, or a source I can learn myself of and correct the way I play.

(I let my char break things, which upon they get immobile, get thrown off balance and react stiffly to impalement. Of course I play on head severing to more or less be death. (It's how I let my former DK die.)

Breaking bones is bad: take a stick, tie a sack to it and lift few apples. Then break the stick in two, tie it together with ducktape and try to lift a few apples. See whthere there is any difference between the number of apples you can lift.

I personally treat ichor as essentially the "magical blood" of an undead creature (same with ectoplasm), and I like emoting it when Dru gets wounded. It's not real blood, but it essentially represents their life force and can be spilled just like blood.

Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain or energy drain. Immune to damage to their physical ability scores (Strength and Agility), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

Not at risk of death from massive damage.

Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect Forsaken. These spells return a destroyed Forsaken to her undead life; the Scourge’s curse makes it virtually impossible to bring a Forsaken back to life as the creature she was before she died. Only wish or miracle can accomplish that.

Forsaken do not breathe, eat or sleep" - World of WarCraft: The Roleplaying Game

The RPG stuff is not canon anymore. However, because the RPG remains one of the best sources for information, I continue to use it unless a specific fact is contradicted by an in-game source, or if the rule of drama dictates that it'd be cooler for the plot/scene to change something around a bit. It's still a good source for inspiration even if not canon.

If you need more sources, you can always go to WoWpedia's search engine and type in 'undead' or something. That's what I always do when people ask me for sources, I don't know this stuff off the top of my head.

Last edited by Drustai on Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total

"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

Ehrm. You can also kill dragons with your bare hand if high enough level, or elementals. I doubt that is a 110% sure thing in rp? Besides, I doubt my DK wanna be fisted. That's sick man! ( Sorry, I could not help it. Blame Feral)

Melnerag wrote:Breaking bones is bad: take a stick, tie a sack to it and lift few apples. Then break the stick in two, tie it together with ducktape and try to lift a few apples. See whthere there is any difference between the number of apples you can lift.

Wll, yes. I emote on if my DK breaks something, then its broken. You bash her arm and it give in and break, then it is just bloody useless there until healed at a later date, and even that I play on as I do my living. It takes days to actually fully mend. (A DoT if you like)

I meant to illustrate the point that you can destroy undead by damaging it enough. Not that you can one-shot them at 90, just decided to say it in a bit more comic way.

Circumstantial Evidence:Several quests (one in Dragonblight) ask you to use special powers given to you by NPCs to kill very powerful undead. That means that other undead do not require special powers and any hero with a sword can kill them.

Ehrm. You can also kill dragons with your bare hand if high enough level, or elementals. I doubt that is a 110% sure thing in rp? Besides, I doubt my DK wanna be fisted. That's sick man! ( Sorry, I could not help it. Blame Feral)

Are you really wanting to imply that death knights are invincible unless they have their head cut off?

Extensive physical damage destroys undead. They are not invincible. Many lore undead are slain without ever removing their heads. Arthas didn't have his head cut off.

"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

Arthas didn't have a heart, either, so I'm not entirely sure where we'd draw the line as to physical damage.

Way I see it, it's easy enough to cut their heads off rather than trying to get through plate armor to scramble intestines and "hope for the best," so why bother with trying to draw the lines as to what, exactly, will kill them?

Just off with their heads or set them on fire, vampire style--minus staking the heart, of course.

Arthas didn't have a heart, either, so I'm not entirely sure where we'd draw the line as to physical damage.

More than 50% of the body is destroyed?

Could work! Can't really picture a DK struggling along with no lower torso. "It's just a flesh wound!"

Incidentally, I personally play it that cutting tendons etc. has the same effect on a DK (basically rendering limbs useless) as on a mortal, although I know others who say believe that a DK is animated by shadow magic, same as raised skeletons with no tendons/muscles at all and thus don't need them. If anyone has info on -that- I'd love to see!

There isn't a line to draw. Far as I'm concerned it's largely a matter of dramatic license. When does it feel most appropriate for the magic animating the corpse to finally break on damage and the whole thing fall to pieces? There's no set limit, no specific location you should target (except for the head). Just, keep hitting it, and eventually it dies. That's all that really matters.

When Dru died (again) last week, it was because it felt appropriate for the amount of damage she was sustaining. Plus she got shot in the head, and as shown in lore by Godfrey killing Sylvanas with one bullet to the head, that's a fatal area even on undead.

Feral / Blackfall wrote:Incidentally, I personally play it that cutting tendons etc. has the same effect on a DK (basically rendering limbs useless) as on a mortal, although I know others who say believe that a DK is animated by shadow magic, same as raised skeletons with no tendons/muscles at all and thus don't need them. If anyone has info on -that- I'd love to see!

Pretty sure there's nothing concrete on that, I've looked before. Abominations are described as being stronger because they have more musculature, so that implies that on fleshy undead at least the muscles/tendons/etc are still at least somewhat important. But then again it could be the spiritual essence of the muscles rather than any actual mechanical effect.

Personally I treat bones and musculature as important for mobility for, as said above, rule of drama. It's more fun to be able to be handicapped.

"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

yeah I would agree mostly with drussy here damage/remove the head and job done.. and preferably with holy embedded weaponry... I would liken holy damage to getting scar tissue on the living.. said damage can be fixed but it will never quite be the same from before it was damaged.. mony herself has used what she learnt of drustai mostly and a few other people here and there and as a result now always carries a few holy blessed rounds with her, a round or two of those puppies to the head of any dk/undead is going to seriously hurt there chances of survival

I play on tendons more or less working, as with bones ect. You break a bone, her arm is useless, you slice the back of her knee and sever the tendon, I play on her leg being useless. She take a arrow to the eye, or to the chest, She survives, but she is not pleased.

The 'Guide to side effects of Reanimation' dictates you can rot quite a lot without dying, as stated with;

"Keep an eye on your rotting. Some is all very well to scare your foes, but an arm falling off mid-stab is just embarrassing."

Drustai wrote:

Are you really wanting to imply that death knights are invincible unless they have their head cut off?

I did not say that. My reply there was more of a silly comment back to Melnerag's response.

I play on my DK being strong. That she can take a lot of damage, but that she -does- need muscles\tendons to function fully. I just don't let her -die- that easy. As in you can render her useless and harmless, but it takes proper damage to kill her. (or decapitation)

Good example is Wülfgnar breaking the arms and legs of my main char DK to render her helpless. It did not kill her, but she could no longer fight back.

How is a neurotoxin going to work if it cannot be absorbed and distributed around the body? If they their cells are dead, the brain and the neurons do not work. Clearly, like with every other part of their body, magic is making it viable enough to function. I don't see any toxin doing anything.

Unless the cells are working magically in some way, a poison is going to do a whole load of bugger all

I'd take the vampire approach - ditch the head, burn it and the rest of the body. Remember kids, they are powerless without their heads! (Which, given what I have just said about the brain, makes little sense. But hey, it's MAGIC!)

Yeah, the only reason I mention neurotoxins -potentially- working are because the neurological system itself seems to still be somewhat necessary.

Electricity is often RPd as still having some effect, and severing the spine will screw a DK, of course. For a neurotoxin to work, though, it'd have to be injected -exactly- where it's required... which, again, begs the question, why not just cut the spine instead *shrug*.

Feral / Blackfall wrote:Yeah, the only reason I mention neurotoxins -potentially- working are because the neurological system itself seems to still be somewhat necessary.

Electricity is often RPd as still having some effect, and severing the spine will screw a DK, of course. For a neurotoxin to work, though, it'd have to be injected -exactly- where it's required... which, again, begs the question, why not just cut the spine instead *shrug*.

So the brain -does- work and control the body? I am seeing inconsistencies here - not your fault more the fault of undead lore. If the heart/muscles are not working, what is the point of the nervous system? If the nerves are required then so must be the muscles, if the muscles are working, they need an oxygen supply, if they need an oxygen supply then the cardiopulmonary system needs to be working. We come full circle. Are they dead or alive? Because they are looking pretty damn alive to me with the logic of undead lore.