King Kong + Others

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maelstroem 1

maelstroem 1

New to this forum, I have read huge numbers of posts and have found excellent information available, all in one area has made it enjoyable rather than trawling through 1000's internet pages looking for specific info.

I have never kept shrimps ( have kept tropical fish in various types for many years ) before but I am about to , I have all the gear ready to go but am moving house in a few weeks so waiting until then to get stuck in.

I have seen a number of excellent posts on genetics from JayC - I used to keep and show budgies many years ago and the mendel theory bit ties in nicely with the budgie genetics

which I was quite au fait with , budgie genetics and breeding results are quite quantifiable , there are many tables for reference for colour / pattern breeding results.

It seems however with shrimp it seems a little bit hit n miss regarding outcomes ( I may be very wrong here but just seems that way, from reading answers to various questions I have found being asked).It just seems the breeding results from various Xings usually produces a reply with " well it just depends "

Now moving on to the title question / s ..... do King Kong shrimp breed true?

Does black X black always = black - same for red X red and yellow X yellow. Also mixing the colours - I've read somewhere that black is dominant to red but the red can be carried in split form , where does the yellow form stand in this is it recessive to both black and red ?

I have noticed there are various patterns in KK ( extreme - with the tip of the tail white against a solid main colour ) but also some with bands on them, are these actual recognised patterns

or are they just better / worse grades ?

If they are recognised patterns - do the patterns breed true also ?

Which shrimp are required to breed KK's without using a KK as a parent?

Finally slightly off subject 'mischlings' - reverting back to the budgie genetics, all crossings no matter how complex produce a named variety / colour even if it is a very poor version - it has a name.

With mischlings it seems to be just classed as crossbreeds - is this because the young are so diverse in colour pattern and type it is not possible to give it a name or ?

Sorry for not placing this in the correct section but I don't have enough knowledge to know where it would belong lol.

Also appologise for the many Q's within a Question and maybe not set out very tidily.

I have many other questions regarding breeding outcomes etc but will try to keep the posts at a good space between them so as not to bombard and annoy folks.

Thanks

M.

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Zoidburg 124

Zoidburg 124

I can't answer your questions, but I would recommend thinking of it more in terms of hybridizing the many macaw species. The first gen hybrids are all pretty similar in appearance. However, when you get into mutli-gen hybrids, the differences between the hybrids tends to vary more depending on what genetics get passed down to them. You can end up with multi-gen hybrids that look like pure species to the untrained eye, or you could end up with a hybrid that, without a doubt, is a hybrid.

What I do know is that in Caridina, if you have a stable line, there is much less culling/selling/trading of the undesired shrimp than there are in Neocaridina.

Black is indeed dominant to red, but I don't know where yellow fits in there... it could vary/be co-dominant?

jayc 1,610

jayc 1,610

I have only just seen this post @maelstroem. apologies for the lateness.

On 7 July 2018 at 5:27 AM, maelstroem said:

I have seen a number of excellent posts on genetics from JayC - I used to keep and show budgies many years ago and the mendel theory bit ties in nicely with the budgie genetics

^^ Then you already know 10 times more than the average shrimp keeper.

On 7 July 2018 at 5:27 AM, maelstroem said:

King Kong shrimp breed true?

Never guaranteed to breed true. The primary reason is that ... ALL (well maybe 99% that are not wild caught) the shrimp we get in this hobby are hybrids of some type to begin with. The colours you see are not natural. You get a very high percentage if the two parents are KKs, but there are still recessive traits in there that can exhibit itself.

So Black x Black will most likely result in black colouring, since black is a dominant trait.

Red x Red has a lower percentage than black, but still likely to be red. The dominance of the red increases with each generation.

Yellow x yellow has an even lower percentage, as yellow is even more recessive than red. All my experiments with Yellow cherry crossed with any other colour has never yielded another yellow offspring.

If you have Yellows, keep them as pure as possible !

You just don't know how difficult it is to breed yellow again, if you had to start from scratch. So don't loose those genetics.

On 7 July 2018 at 5:27 AM, maelstroem said:

I have noticed there are various patterns in KK ( extreme - with the tip of the tail white against a solid main colour ) but also some with bands on them, are these actual recognised patterns

or are they just better / worse grades ?

If they are recognised patterns - do the patterns breed true also ?

Which shrimp are required to breed KK's without using a KK as a parent?

Questions galore!

KKs with various patterns ... yes these are still called King Kongs. But because there are so many possibilities and variations in patterns, no one has named them yet. Breeding houses will give it a name, so they can sell them. But that does not mean that, that is the accepted name for that variation in pattern. Pattern names can be different from country to country as well.

The common patterns have been given names:

Black extreme - all black.

Panda - black with one or two white stripes.

Shadow Panda - black with one or two blue stripes.

Then you get various grades of Pandas/Shadow Pandas, where you have more white/blue the higher you go from A to S to SS and SSS.

Better or worse? - they are neither better nor worse in grade, just different. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

"If they are recognised patterns - do the patterns breed true also ?" - Patterns are like finger prints. No two are alike.

"Which shrimp are required to breed KK's without using a KK as a parent?" - Getting KKs without KK parents? - I think you need TB x Mischling. Where the mischling is a TB x CBS or TB x CRS.

On 7 July 2018 at 5:27 AM, maelstroem said:

With mischlings it seems to be just classed as crossbreeds - is this because the young are so diverse in colour pattern and type it is not possible to give it a name or ?

mischling literally just means crossbred in German. The term was coined to indicate that it was no longer a pure TB x TB, or CRS x CRS.

You can get a Mischling that looks exactly like a CRS or CBS and be non the wiser.

In order to avoid breeding issues, we use that term to identify hybrids. Nothing worse than trying to breed a Pure Line CRS than a rogue Mischling.

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I'm starting a brand new #neomix tank. I won't be adding or taking out any shrimp, just documenting developments along the way. I'm interested to see if any new variants develop, and what the tendency towards brown is. I'll be sharing updates on my channel if you are interested in following along. Enjoy! #shrimptv

Hey SKFrs,
I'm creating this thread in the hope that it gets a lot of input and brings a serious subject to the forefront of our attention so we can all learn from each other.
In short; I'd like to know what people's processes are for culling weakest and selecting the best shrimps.
I can say honestly when I first kept shrimp I barely culled whatsoever, and that gradually I am culling more and more strictly.. I can think of a few reasons why/how I've been heading in this direction.
Some of these questions might only apply to breeders who have been selecting shrimp for several years while others may be relevant to people newer to shrimps; in any case some of the key points I'd love to get people talking about include - (in no particular order)
What numbers of mature shrimp do you like to keep in a colony?
At what size do you cull males and/or females? What do you do with your culls; do you kill/feed the worst of the worst or give them away or sell them very cheaply?
What do you do with your culls?
Do you partition of your tanks or use breeding boxes to keep your best males and females breeding while your main colony matures?
Do you introduce new genetics and if so how often and would they preferably be males? or females perhaps?
What differences do you think apply when choosing your best males or females for solid neos vs rilis vs different pattern bees vs TB etc etc you get the idea....
Has anyone found any clear proof of what traits males or females are specifically more likely to pass on in different shrimps?

OK That was a lot !!! I hope I haven't put you all by raising so many items of discussion but I hope someone can address at least one of these and get the ball rolling :-)
love n peace
will

Posts

Thank you for the reply.
So I get that I will need to start again with fresh shrimp but can those shrimp go into the existing tank once all of the old colony have been removed? Is there any chance that the ellobiopsidae could harbour in any of the tank elements such as substrate and filter for example and therefore be introduced to the new shrimp?

Since "ellobiopsidae" aka "green fungus" aka "algae" can show up 3 or 6 months later, or even 2 years later, you either need to treat the entire tank and hope you eliminate it or or restart the tank with fresh blood. (new shrimp that are not from imports)

The reddit person's neighbor may have used high VOC paint which is more deadly. (primer typically has high VOC) Unfortunately without more details, it's hard to say. I've had shrimp die because roommate put a food grade bag into the microwave. It was not microwaveable safe. Three weeks later, neighbors bug bombed their place. Both incidents resulted in a massive die off....
chongkt another option maybe is to get an oxydator that creates oxygen *in* the tank, rather than pulling oxygen from the surrounding area.

First off, you want a substrate that buffers the pH down around 6.5 or below.
Second, the RO water or distilled as recommended. If you have soft water, then a cheap RO machine can work, although the replacement cartridges may be the same amount as a new machine. If you have hard water, then I would recommend a more expensive RO unit.
Third, you'll need GH minerals for shrimp. (no KH)
Make sure you have a liquid test kit that measures all water parameters, including GH and KH. A TDS meter with calibration solution is also recommended.
Sponge filters with an air pump can be used for filtration. It's recommended to get the type that suction to the side of the aquarium.