2 Samuel 16:9,11 - "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head...let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord hath bidden him."

Matthew 7:15 - “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Matthew 24:11 - “…and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”

Tuesday, February 17, 2009

"GO ARGUE WIT DA BOOK, BRUTHA!"

Sunday Mac was in rare form. Its hard to come to grips if what we see on display Sunday after Sunday is spiritual abuse, or if Mac is just doing his dead-level best to be jerk. Maybe its both.

Mac starts off Sunday morning announcing that the church is $100,000 behind budget.

And Mac says the Lord has spoken to him that he and Deb can give more to the church.

So he tells us that he is going to "give a tithe of his tithe", in addition to his tithe.

Now I've heard of people in ministerial leadership positions increasing their giving, or in difficult times decreasing their incomes. For instance, Johnny Hunt last week said that he and his wife DOUBLED the amount they give to the church in these difficult times. The president of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary gave himself a 10% pay cut recently while times are tight. I've heard of Rick Warren and his "reverse tithe", where he KEEPS 10% and gives 90% to the Lord's work. But I ain't heard of a "tithe on a tithe".

Just to clarify, that is one tenth of one tenth, which is 1%. So Mac is increasing his giving 1%. OK, hard to criticize a guy who says he is going to give more, but 1% increase from a guy making as much as Mac and Deb do is hardly something to brag about. Not much leadership shown there by a guy with a very stable job and revenue stream and huge income as compared to the average church member. His 1% increase really falls flat later in his sermon when he refers to his wife's shopping habits as "Congress' greatest weapon" against the recession.

But then Mac goes further, and groups his congregation into three groups: those who are obedient and giving more like him, those who don't know how to trust God with their finances, and those who "argue about tithing". And Mac then does one of his famous screams to intimidate people who argue about tithing:

"...take it [the issue of tithing] up with Jesus. That's what you do. Don't take it up with me. GO TO DA BOOK. GO ARGUE WITH DA BOOK BRUTHER. Don't argue with da preacher."

Then he says..."you shook up enough? Good!" This guy is a bully, plain and simple. His emotion has replaced the Holy Spirit at our church. As though his job is to bother us, or "shake us up". And he's happy about it.

And by the way, Mac has never given a clear explanation of what the Old Testament tithe is and how it fits in with the New Testament principles of giving out of love. Its all out of duty in Mac's eyes, and he is more than happy to ram his legalism down your recalcitrant throat. What about new Christians that don't understand tithing? What about Christians that don't agree that tithing is scriptural, can't he make a sound defense to lovingly convince them and teach them? What about visitors who hear him angrily scream this at his congregation? If I were a visitor and heard the preacher say this to his people, I would be heading for the exits. Spiritual abuse.

What's funny about this is Mac's marketing consultant, Maurilio Amorim, just yesterday posted an article on his blog about "legacy churches"...and how they have not modernized their methods and contexualized their messages to the culture...and how these legacy churches are doomed for failure and will lose the next generation. News flash to Mac: there is absolutely nothing more offensive to people we are trying to reach with the gospel than a fat, balding, wealthy, mega church preacher angrily screaming at people to give 10% of their income out of legalism and an Old Testament scripture and to teach it by screaming "look it up in da book!". That goes over like a lead zeppelin, Mac. What might work is a person who calmly explains and/or teaches the concept, uses scripture to make his point, and acts like a normal person who respects his audience. People can't stand angry arrogance, especially from a wealthy mega church pastor screaming at people to let loose of their money. That advice was free, Mac, and I didn't charge you a $100 an hour church marketing consultant's fee.

But if the trend of being behind budget continues (many churches these days are), get ready for more bullying from Mac. And by the way: if he tithes on the tithe of the tithe, that would be an increase from 11% to 11.1%. And if I calculate correctly, a tithe on the tithe of the tithe of the tithe would be 11.11%.

For other tidbits from Mac's sermon that demonstrate his "jerkness", listen below. You will find it enlightening, and even mildly amusing....and you might even chuckle.

33 comments:

"if he tithes on the tithe of the tithe, that would be an increase from 11% to 11.1%"

That would be 12.1%.

Is it possible, Mac meant double tithing? Is he emulating Hunt? Is so, they must be giving 30% of their income. I remember Debbie mentioning that they gave 15% of their income. Maybe that includes tithing + extra giving. Ok. So maybe they are giving 25% of their income. This is an optimistic assessment. 10% tithe + 5% extra giving + 10% tithe on tithe?

I am assuming he misspoke, because one does not want to mention giving only 1.1% more in tithing.

The Old Testament was written by Jews to Jews and only the JEWS. The gentiles did not get into the blessings of God until the New Testament. So whoever says tithing is for everyone is not reading the book carefully. The gentiles were not allowed into the House of God in the Old Testament!!In the New Testament the gentiles were grafted in by faith which did not include tithing. When Philip reached out through the Holy Spirit he showed the Ethiopian how to be saved and baptized him...no mentioning of the tithe. When Paul was saved on the road to Damascus those that led him to saving grace never mentioned the tithe. When Cornelius was led to Christ by Peter and the others that came with him there was no mention of the tithe. When Stephen reached out to win the Jews to Christ no mention of the tithe. When you get to the book of James you find no mention of the tithe but rather chapter 4 vs 10 "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up". We all can do this regardless of wealth or poverty. Then in vs 11-12 " Speak not evil one of another: brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth; his brother, speaketh evil of the law and judgeth the law; thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another".

When you get to Hebrews you find the great heros of the faith. Again, no mention of the tithe except by the Jew. When you get to the Epistles of John you read over and over again to love one another. That is the new commandment by Jesus Christ. You won't find the word tithe in the New Testament after the book of Luke except in Hewbrews where it dealt with the Jew. Preachers should quit trying to take the church back into the Old Testament, under the law, where it was clearly for the Jew. It was for the Jew...go read it for yourself. The New Testament deals with the commandment of Love...love your neighbor..thats the one living next to you and sitting next to you. It is not that difficult to understand. Read the book of Jude written by the Lord's earthly brother. What did he say? Read the book. He said to have compassion on the lost and save others with fear pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. He lived with Jesus daily for many years. He knew God (Jesus) face to face yet he never mentioned the tithe. Does that teach you anything about what is important to God. Love is the answer. Isn't it odd that in heaven money is not important at all while love abounds. And everyone can eat of the tree of life freely!!!

What BOOK does Da Brutha read from, because tithing is not in my NEW TESTAMENT or OLD TESTAMENT for that matter except in relation to the JEWS!!!!!! I notice that this Brutha spends more than the tithe of his time on mentioning, demanding, gathering and general preoccupation with MONEY. Which leaves very little time for reaching the lost and preaching salvation by JESUS CHRIST!!!!

I read somewhere that Rick Warren gives 90% of his income to charities. He fails to mention that these charities are his!!! He controls these charities that this money sits in. But it certainly makes for great Tax breaks, if you call it a charity. Gotta watch the Bruthas!!!!

...The Bible predicts in the last days these Church Pastors would be OUT OF CONTROL..The state of FBC Jax falls SOLELY on the shoulders of Pope Mac the First..You can take this to the bank;;What drives Pope Mac is internal GREED and AMBITION not Christ Glory..His abusive behavior towards anyone who defies him belies his disqualification as one CALLED BY GOD to lead his people..Mac reminds me of the bullies who with their buddies would torment me and the other kids when I attend junior high school..But as soon as someone stood up to them,or he didn't have HIS posse with him,this bully turned out to be a COWARD!!Remove Pope Mac's from his henchmen and we'll all find out that Mac's nothing but a BULLY and a COWARD at heart!!!!!

Deb's shopping habits and materialism were legendary at First Dallas while I was there. Jusk ask about the running joke during their tenure about her shoe "addiction". Her personal trainer was mentioned during a sermon once. Another time, the incredibly-shrinking space of Mac's corner of the closet was described in a sermon, too.

No eyebrows were ever raised, however, because that type of materialism is encouraged, nay expected, here where money talks. Just all a part of being a worldly Baptist.

My intent with this post is to not persuade people to not tithe, or take up the issue of whether "Old Testament tithing" as taught by most SBC preachers is biblical. We were taught this for decades by the Lindsays and Vines. My intent was to show the abusive manner in which Mac attempts to teach tithing, or should I say NOT teach it but scream it and hang it around people's necks in a bullying fashion.

Many people - including Mac - do respect John MacArthur, and I would recommend people listen to what he says on the matter.

I have heard very intelligent men make a scriptural and logical case that out of love, a Christian should be giving at least 10% (tithe) to the church. Fine. If a preacher is going to teach tithing, then he should teach it and explain it out of scripture and lovingly teach it if that is what he truly understands scripture to teach.

But Mac will not even do that!

He just yells at us, and then tells US to take it up with the book.

So, FBC Jax....do that. Take it up with the book. Its not an easy subject to deal with, so you will need help from respected Christian writers who HAVE taken it to da book. One of them, as I said, is John MacArthur.

I'm just saying, in the absence of Mac teaching us about tithing - apparently he'd rather recite history lessons and cute stories to us - then you must seek out other teachers on the subject because your pastor is not doing it.

He'd rather yell and scream and holler and demean anyone who disagrees with him.

So FBC Jax - take Mac's rebuke as a true challenge.

Take the matter of tithing up with da book.

And you might then wonder how a supposed OT history buff like him could actually teach OT tithing - or maybe the logical answer is he doesn't teach it because he knows it aint in da book - but he doesn't trust God or YOU enough to teach the truth and still meet his budget.

Watchdog, some things are absolutes. Tithing absolutely is an OLD TESTAMENT doctrine, under the law. It absolutely is NOT commanded of the NEW TESTAMENT church. As far as getting help from some Christian Writers, whoever they may be; I do not need to go to another man to find out what I can study for myself in my own bible. Contrary to this pastor's opinion we are not all dummies, who must be led and told, make that demanded to obey them, no matter what false doctrine they bring. Listening to others including some christian writers is how many people get into trouble in the first place. Opinions of writers vary according to what they believe and what they WANT you to believe. Lindsay and Vines taught tithing because THEY were taught tithing. In some preachers like them it was an honest mistake. In others it is a convenient way to force money out of your pocket into theirs. I believe in GIVING to the church if one feels led. But demanded under OT law.....NO. So christian writers don't always know more than we do. They after all are mortals like us, and their writings are subject to error and examination for validity as any other writing. But you can go straight to the perfect source the bible and find out for yourself. You are not stupid.

The first tithe in scripture was Jacon at Bethel in Genesis 28:20 it was to be given out of gratitude. Grace giving calls for us to go beyond the 10 percent of the tithe. Is it really gratitude for a guy to give 2 percent when God has given us everything

I didn't mean to say we must go to others, but that it might be helpful if we do.

You mentioned pastors saying things they want us to believe....

I think this goes to motives. I really believe that Homer Lindsay, Jr. really believed that the bible taught Christians should tithe...he believed it. He did also understand and teach the New Testament principles of giving, out of love and a cheerful heart as the impetus for giving. But Lindsay believed the Word said it and he taught it.

I'm very suspect of Mac's motives. Of course we don't know his motives, but his actions raise suspicions. Does he really believe the OT practice of tithing applies to Christians?

- Being the historical scholar he believes himself to be, then why doesn't he give a clear, biblical, historical explanation of tithing? Why?

- He has a trusted church marketing consultant who taught a session at the PC entitled "How to Raise Money in Difficult Times"....so perhaps Mac views his job as "raising money"....and he uses a marketing and promotions firm to do that.

- So does Mac view his method of teaching OT tithing as the best way to raise revenue? Do him and Maurilio know that since we've been taught it all these years, they should ride that horse? Maybe that's what causes his frustration and anger: "you nimrods listened to the other guys on this tithing issue, but you don't listen to me and want to argue with me over it!"

- Mac once referred to us as "giving units". Does he view us as "units"? When he sees us does he see us with a "benjamin" on our foreheads and he uses a church marketer to gain market share and increase revenue to get us to give more benjamins?

You see, Homer just preached tithing. Lovingly. Vines taught it and explained it - actually gave reasoned explanations from scripture how 10% is the starting point for Christian giving.

But Mac won't do it. He screams it, plays video clips of the other guys telling us about it...and brags how he "tithes on the tithe".

But in love he won't explain it.

Its like a sequel to Mac's book "Why Churches Die" is being written right in front of us.

The reason most people don't know anything about the bible is, they DON"T STUDY IT. Are you going to tell me that people who go through life making very difficult decisons everyday, makeing money, raising families, don't have the brain power to know Gods Word. Of course they do. I am talking about saved people here. People don't study Gods Word because they are LAZY. That's why many christians have no convictions one way or another on Biblical matters. That's why they become victims of some preachers and cults. Here are saved people, perfectly capable of knowing Gods Word and they go to a church where some man with less brain power than they, tells (demands) to be the Bible authority in their lives, and people wonder why they get wrong info. If your preacher is preaching truth then you will know it. 2 Timothy 2:14: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". Key words here are "rightly dividing". People have time to watch TV, shop, go to movies, sports events, etc. You will one day answer to the Lord for why you didn't study HIS word. The word was given to all, not just to preachers to tell us what it says by his interpertation, right or wrong. Many martyrs died so we can have this word down through the ages. At least we can READ it. Then you will know for yourself when you hear false doctrine and false preachers!!!! Don't be spiritually LAZY...STUDY for yourself.

The issue of money has always kept the coals warm in baptist churches.Especially, when it comes to tithing and giving.But when I read the comments made on this blog about the issue of giving and tithing, I see a flawed argument made against the pastor.It's basically being said the pastor is abusive when it comes to his stance on tithing. Many on this blog also say tithing is not required of the New Testament church and that we as Christians are not obligated to tithe. You also say that the glory days are over and FBC Jax is no longer the same as it once was when Homer Lindsay, Jr. and Vines were here. Along with all that, the argument is being made that the good people, the long time members who made the church what it is are being abused by the current pastor.My opinion and observation is simply this:

The people who have been long time members of this church, the ones you say made this church what it is (which is wrong also), who were taught and pastored under the Lindsays and Vines,.....they tithed. Lindsay and Vines preached tithing and the people tithed. And the Lord took that and made our church into what it is.I find it ironic that you think the following: the pastor is abusive when he takes a stance on tithing, tithing is not biblical and church members shouldn't tithe but that you bicker about the glory days vanishing, the same days when people tithed, not gave, and the preachers preached tithing and the church became what it is today.

Tithing is biblical, in the Old and New Testament. There's this flawed argument that says tithing was and is only an Old Testament thing and that since it's an Old Testament thing, we don't have to tithe. Well let me give you something to ponder; God gave Moses the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament but he didn't in the New Testament. Does that mean we're not supposed to follow the Ten Commandments since it's not a New Testament thing. No, it doesn't. Same thing with tithing.

We as Christians are obligated out of obedience to the Lord to return to Him what is his, in other words a tithe. Giving is sacrificial. There's no sacrifice in giving back to the Lord what is really his.Giving is seeker friendly, perhaps even Purpose Driven as some have referred to on this blog.In my opinion, tithing is first and foremost and then we should give.

The point of this post is that Mac is abusive in the manner he angrily yells at people to tithe, and yells at those who might "argue" with him about tithing.

Is that how a pastor, the shepherd of the flock, is to treat those who have questions about tithing?

If Mac believes we should tithe, because it is what he believes the Bible teaches, then should he persuade people by yelling at them? Or should he teach it from the book?

His teaching it is only so far as "its in the book, and if you didn't know it before, YOU KNOW IT NOW." In other words, because I said, you have to believe it. Bullying. Just plain rudeness.

I'm sorry that you have bought into Mac's legalism. Our previous pastors taught us to tithe, but to their credit they mostly gave a balanced view of tithing, looking at the New Testament scriptures on giving - that we give not out of OT legalism and duty, but we give as Christians out of love and cheerful heart because of what Christ has done for us.

Our preachers never beat us up over tithing as Mac does.

And I question whether he actually believes tithing is scritural himself, otherwise I'm sure a history buff like he would love to teach us just how scriptural that practice is for NT believers. It is my personal opinion that Mac teaches it because he believes that is the best method to "maximize revenue"...he knows we have been conditioned by our pastors to tithe...and so that is his tact...and that is why he uses audio and video clips of our previous pastors telling us to tithe. That is why he tells us that Homer, Sr. called out non-tithers and made them stand up (I don't believe Mac when he tells us this, by the way).

The problem, CC, is you have been conditioned by Mac to accept his abusive preaching...it doesn't seem abusive as you're used to it now. Go to another church and hear a loving bible expositor for a few Sundays, and you will see. Yes, you will see. Mac is an abusive preacher.

And CC: please dig deep and give generously. Your church and Mac need you more than ever. They are behind budget, the pastor's conference was WAY below their expectations, and teachers need to be hired, and chillers need to be replaced as summer draws near....so DIG DEEP!

You made my point we are not under the Old Testament Law. We are under GRACE. To solve the question. As Mac says, GO TO THE BOOK. STUDY the bible for yourself. It does NOT teach tithing in the NT. What you are describing are "emotional" reasons for tithing. Thanks.

CC - what other Old Testament laws and rules are we under. As you probably know, there were not just 10 commandments. Their were hundreds! Are we still obligated to follow all of those too? Why or why not? If not all, which ones? Why do you think tithing was not among the 10 commandments? If I am obligated by the OT law, I think I need a list. A legalistic list, I believe is what Mac calls it.

Let me start with this; I do not consider Mac Brunson abusive. I will also take this opportunity to say you can save the "the abused never realize it" or "you're a kool aid drinker" crap because I do not live in Jacksonville and hadn't attended FBCJ for several years before I left. I have watched him many times on TV from both the local affiliate that airs them, as well as the 30 minute program.

However, I would like to throw this out there. Shouldn't you at FBCJ have realized he was this way before he ever came? If you think he is so bad, should you not have raised flags over it then by either not standing or shouting NO when they took their sham of a vote. Seriously, do you not remember him lashing out at FBC Dallas the last week he was there before coming to Jax to preach that sermon? He lashed out at the congregation in Dallas, he lashed out at Jacksonville and the members here all because they had the nerve to talk about the worst kept secret in Jacksonville history...who was replacing Jerry Vines. I really did believe that was out of line. It isn't like him coming as pastor is the equivalent of a government secret or anything. Who cares if the news got out. But based on the article I read, he lashed out at everyone he could think of in both cities.

Brett, tithing is neither Purpose Driven nor Seeker Friendly . Tithing is an example for us in the Church Age. We love our Lord because He first loved us. Out of a loving heart we give tithes and offerings. We give so that souls will be saved. You should know that Warren and Hybells do not stress tithing. They also do not stress soul winning!!!

BB are not the initials for Brett Blakenship, an old frequent flyer of this blog.If you have read the last few blogs the Watchdog has written, and the follow up comments to them, you will discover what BB is. Happy Hunting.

Oh, and Anon, I'll let you discern for yourself how you should obey the Lord according to the Old Testament. I can't hold your hand for you!

I wish someone would start a church for people who want to live under OT Law, and who love to have a preacher yell, scream and abuse them, who doesn't preach Salvation messages or much of anything, especially anything out of the NT. One who demands big bucks for he and family for doing the above. Then people from out of town, who don't know the facts because they ARN'T HERE and DON"T ATTEND HERE, can tell us how we should be so happy to have, bylaws passed we never heard explained or even SAW. They can tell us how happy we should be that we have Calvanist principles running rampant here. Don't worry about preaching to the lost, God will save whom he wants. You know that.... stuff. I love how people expect we should have known how Mac WAS. Well, WE WEREN'T IN HIS CHURCH, just like YOU ARN'T IN OURS. WE HAD OUR PREACHER CHOSEN FOR US. GET IT? A small percentage and I mean small, like the selection committee and a few yes men of this church knew anything about him. Many had only heard him preach ONE time, at a PC in the past. And contrary to opinion, many did NOT know he was the CHOSEN one to come here until about 2 weeks before the announcement. By then it was a DONE DEAL. So before you tell us how things should be or are in OUR church maybe you should be here, or at least live here. Thanks so much for your help.Oh yes, and if you like a preacher who preaches OT law and yells and screams, if you start a church like that then you can attend THAT one. Instead of telling us how we should love turning FBCJ into one like that.

I get google alerts for blogs that talk about tithing sent to my email. It's funny that i came across your blog, considering i'm from Jacksonville as well.

I definitely share your frustration with pastors who use their emotion to push an agenda across without using scripture to digest what we should do in regards to giving. I have a blog that is dedicated to stewardship and tithing, and am frustrated beyond normality at the abuse of the tithing doctrine.

Not only do they force tithing down everyone's throat without backing up with scripture, but they tell you to argue wit da book, as if they actually used to book to make their own case.

Sure, they may spit out Malachi 3, but fail to explain how an OT command migrates into the NT system.

Steward - Amen brother. Like the WD pointed out: Maurilio and Mac are into "raising funds." The only reason the tithe is emphasized in FBC Jax is because of its great history of tithers and generous offerings. Apparently, insisting on the tithe and offerings as obligations "works" better in raising funds than other ideas the A-group uses in churches where people are not gullible tithers.

Its all about what method "raises funds" the best. I am convinced that if believers gave cheerfully, according to NT teaching, they would give much more than 10% and you would never hear preachers talk about the tithe again. Except to those who "only" gave a tithe, or used the OT to limit their giving to 10%. Then you can bet they would be quick to point out that was OT, not NT.

Oh well. However these charlatans can get into your pocket the easiest is what they will do. Tithing used to work at FBC when leaders of integreity called for it. But with Mac, it obviously doesn't work any more. Maybe he will blame the blog for this? IMHO, once he accepted the land gift, he gave up his authority to lead. So although he and his family gained a profit of $307K that day, his ministry has lost millions over the next 3 years. God is not mocked, Mac is reaping what he sowed.

My friend, folks are questioning giving to fund large buildings, staff, high salaries, electric bills, etc. What is the point?

People are leaving these monstrosities in droves all over the US.

God does not need these things to be worshiped. Where in the NT do we see this structure of a wealthy pastor and huge building for church? The Church is a Body of Christ. Not a building.

As things get worse, expect more folks to question why they should fund Mac and a fancy building or take care of their own extended families? Or perhaps send their kids to college? Or help out a single mom instead.

We have been pouring money down big black holes in Christendom for far too long in this country. this economic crisis could be just the thing to show folks what a true church is. It is not that big building with the celebrity pastor who makes 6 figures. It was never meant to look like that.

There is NO command to tithe in the NT. Look for yourself. Jesus paid the temple tax because he KEPT the law perfectly. But look closely at what He told Peter about doing it. Look closly at what He said about the 'Sons being free'. We have NO temple. The veil was torn in two.

The offerings we see in the NT were to help other Christians in need to and carry out the Great Commission. Not to set up Paul, Peter and Apollos in fancy churches with big salaries.

When are folks going to wake up and realize this is not Christianity? It is a business. An evil business of marketing Jesus to be famous and wealthy. And giving to it only makes you part of perpetuating a mockery of true Christianity. No wonder the church is NO threat here and never persecuted. It looks too much like the world.

Study the scriptures so you can see what true Christianity looks like and what a true elder would be like. It is not Mac. You are being taken in by a hirling and a wolf. Matt

Matt:11:39: Brilliant! You said it all and very well. This is exactly what is happening in churches today, and particularly at FBCJ. The world is IN the church and boy is the church paying for it. But if people are stupid or just have no spirtiual discernment, then they get what they ask for. Stupidity breeds abuse. And FBCJ has an abundance of both.

TO Anon 10:39 - That is FLAT-OUT LIE. Warren DOES stress tithing. In fact, you have to sign a contract when you join his church saying you will give 10%. Read his rediculous, heretical books and see. He openly admits it.

Can't remember how long ago he said it but do you remember him (Brunson) stating from the pulpit "...and don't tell me that you're giving your tithe directly to missions, because I don't believe it!"

He chooses not to believe it, but that's his choice. But I think he'd be absolutely shocked as to how many FBC members have been giving monies directly to the needy, whether it is organized overseas missions or local needs.

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About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"