Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Lois - Again your defense of Poetsch for winning the gold medal is so strong. It makes me wonder why?

You mentioned Sports Illustrated for not saying anything wrong with it as some sort of proof. Yet, you say nothing about Scott Hamilton's remarks about how it was fixed - especially in the figures competition. It's so easy and always was easy to play hanky panky with the figures. So a news magazine knows more than an Olympic gold medalist for you.

From my viewing of the competition, Ms Poetsch was nothing more than imposter. And that alone leads me to believe that the fix was based on Hamilton's story about Cousins (whom you apparently think the world of).

But you don't have to fret. The competition is over. Your Poetsch got the gold as did Mr. Cousins. But there is nothing wrong with others believing that it should not have been. Hanky panky in figure skating is not a new concept.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Joe,

Wow, you certainly have a strong and strange reaction to my attempts to provide some facts to counter the Fratianne/Carroll PR spin. You also have me completely baffled by something. You keep on referring to Scott Hamilton as if I ought to know what you're talking about when you go on in a way that sounds like you think he's backing Fratianne's conspiracy claims and had some sort of story about Robin Cousins not deserving the gold, neither of which I can recall ever seeing in print or hearing on TV. Now, I certainly don't claim a comprehensive knowledge of everything ever published on the 1980 singles, but I'm not aware of Scott Hamilton ever taking a position on either event. If you can explain and provide a reference to your claims, please do, because right now you're not making any sense to me. I'm not even sure what you're claiming.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Lois - Again your defense of Poetsch for winning the gold medal is so strong. It makes me wonder why? [/quote]
Because I happen to value truth and abhor lies and revisionist history, for one thing, and because most of the skating fans and media now have no memories or knowledge of what actually happened in 1980, and will believe whatever Fratianne says without question, unless someone speaks out and corrects her or provides more details on what actually happened. Most people online don't have the information to do so, such as the skating magazine coverage of the time, with placements. I do.

Fratianne and Carroll have a global media audience, with magazines and magazines and TV programs at times carrying one-sided distortions and outright lies from them alone, with no fact-checking by the "journalists" involved, or balance to the stories. They have a history of making unsubstantiated, slanderous criminal charges. If you doubt the seriousness of their allegations, look at what happened in 2002 in SLC, in what was clearly a genuine scandal with very *different* circumstances from 1980? What is wrong with a few highly ineffective posts online to provide more information both on what really happened (number and nationality of judges, placements, past history of figures, etc.) and the fact that there are plenty of knowledgeable skating people who disagree with Fratianne & Carroll's opinion-stated-as-fact that she should have won?

Also, I never claim that it is a "fact" that Anett should have won. Skating is a subjective sport, and there will always be disagreements over results, for all sorts of reasons. Some of those have been posted here by others. We can agree to disagree, but there's no point in arguing about taste. I can see Lake Placid as a close competition where you can make an argument for either Anett or Linda winning, for a variety of reasons, the same as for the Battle of the Brians or men in '92 or the ladies Olympic finals in 1984, 1994, 1998, and 2002, among others. I have no problem with someone else thinking that the results should have been different, though you seem to have issues with this.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You mentioned Sports Illustrated for not saying anything wrong with it as some sort of proof. Yet, you say nothing about Scott Hamilton's remarks about how it was fixed - especially in the figures competition. It's so easy and always was easy to play hanky panky with the figures. So a news magazine knows more than an Olympic gold medalist for you.[/quote]

Again, I have no idea what the Hamilton stuff is about. He wasn't doing commentary in 1980. I mentioned Sports Illustrated and the 1980 skating magazines, and should have included Olympic gold medallist Dick Button's TV commentary, as examples of the contrast between the 1980 results, where Anett's win was treated by the media as reasonable and not scandalous, and the overwhelming outrage and scandal that instantaneously and spontaneously arose the minute the pairs results were announced in 2002. Fratianne and Carroll have tried to claim that the reactions and situations were the same, which was decidedly not the case.

As far as figures are concerned, there's no question that they have been misused by judges throughout skating history. However, as I pointed out, Fratianne's results in figures in 1980 were completely consistent both with those over a 4 year period during which she twice won Worlds and with skating magazine comments on the figures skills of the skaters involved. The judging could have been bad, neither of us is in a position to know, AFAIK, but I give Linda zero credibility based on her past history, so I would need to see support of her claims from neutral and knowledgeable observers. Anyway, the skating magazine coverage at the time didn't agree with Linda's story.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>From my viewing of the competition, Ms Poetsch was nothing more than imposter. And that alone leads me to believe that the fix was based on Hamilton's story about Cousins [/quote]

You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone who disagrees with you. If your mystery Hamilton reference is to Frank Carroll's idiotic men/ladies conspiracy theory, which I would really rather not get into here, that one can definitely be debunked as pure sour-grapes hogwash if you look at the facts of the judges in the two events and their placements. Lots of national bias at the Olympics, as always (including from the American judges), but a two-event conspiracy definitely doesn't hold up.

I don't think that there was a conspiracy in the ladies event, but unlike the men/ladies garbage the ladies-only one is impossible to prove or disprove unless there really was a conspiracy and someone involved confesses, or other solid evidence is found. And, playing devil's advocate, even if there were a conspiracy it's also still possible that the results turned out correctly anyway, as, for example, may have happened in dance in 2002, where IMHO Anissina & Peizerat deserved the gold regardless of whether the Russian mobster tried judge-tampering on their behalf.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But you don't have to fret. The competition is over. Your Poetsch got the gold as did Mr. Cousins. [/quote]

She's not "my" Poetzsch, any more than Fratianne is "yours," unless you're a relative or Frank Carroll. As I've said before, Anett was never one of my favorite skaters, I merely thought that she was better than Fratianne. In 1980, Denise was my favorite by a mile, followed by Lisa-Marie, and maybe Emi Watanabe on a good day. We didn't see as many skaters on TV then, but Poetzsch was somewhere back in the pack for me.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Hanky panky in figure skating is not a new concept.[/quote]

I agree. It goes back at least to Sonja Henie's day. I've seen a number of blatant examples of various sorts over the years, as well as situations where the outcome was close and debateable but I don't think that illegal conspiracies were involved, just genuine differences of opinion, such as ladies in Nagano or men in Lillehammer. But conspiracy is a very serious charge, and I have strong reasons to doubt the credibility of Fratianne and Carroll where Lake Placid is concerned. Because people know that crooked judging can and does happen, it's all too easy to use it as a convenient excuse for a loss.

I should point out that I *never* start these Fratianne threads, I only respond to them to bring in contradictory information that would otherwise be unknown to all the readers who didn't see or don't remember the details of Lake Placid and would otherwise be in no position to judge for themselves what happened. After all, Carlo Fassi is no longer here to defend himself. Why do you think that only one side should be told? No one would be happier than I if the Fratianne/Carroll whining threads disappeared forever, but I'm not optimistic.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

In 1980 Olympics both Pötsch and Hoffmann from East-Germany were very strong contenders for the gold medal. Why would East-Germany make a deal for Pötsch to win and Hoffmann to lose in a situation where there were such big chances for them both to win the gold? That kind of deal sounds very unlikely to me. And as Lois posts above the win for Pötsch was 7-2, not even close for Fratianne to win.

As far as I remember our Finnish commentators did not find anything wrong with the results in either men´s or ladies´ competition in 1980 Olympics. LOL, on the other hand maybe they would have, if a Finnish skater had lost the gold...

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Glad to read you are not a Poetsch fan and I will confirm I am not a Fratianne fan. That said, I draw your attention to Scott Hamilton who did speak of this 'conspiracy' in his book or in an interview. I really don't know but it was spoken about in forums. Hopefully someone comes to my rescue.

Getting away with fixes in figure skating goes back to Henie's day too. There was talk about Henie's dad paying a lot out for one of those gold medals. Maybe. I dunno.

But since 2002 the conspiracy theories have gained validity. We must watch this. The Sport is in trouble. Except for the devotees of figure skating, it's popularity is now very questionable, imo.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

In response to Jaana, not only did Fratianne lose 2-7, but Robin Cousins won 6-3 in the closest Olympic finish under that scoring system, a result which would have been virtually impossible to rig because of the math alone, not to mention the fact that there were only TWO countries with judges on both the men's and ladies panels, and NEITHER of them voted in a conspiracy-theory fashion--the East German judges voted for Anett and Jan Hoffman and the US judge for Linda and Jan Hoffman.

Joe, I checked Hamilton's book last night before replying to you, and according to the index the references to both Linda and Robin do not include a word about whatever it is you think he said. Maybe he said somethinng somewhere that I've never heard and no one else has ever brought up, but there's nothing in his book, Landing It.

And I'm sure that the fix was in for Sonja Henie and in 2002. But I also think that Fratianne and Carroll have opportunistically exploited a genuine scandal for their own purposes, without facts to back them up.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

To me, the saddest part is that, from all reports, Linda Fratianni allowed the controversy over the 1980 gold medal to rankle in her heart for decades, poisoning her spirit. I hope that's wrong, but both she and Frank Carroll have given that impression.

Of course it is a bitter blow when you think that you have won the game on the playing field, only to have it taken away by the referree. But holding a grudge only hurts you, not the person that you have a beef with. Never mind Sonja Henie and Ulrich Salchow, fixed judging has been part and parcel of the Olympic Games ever since the Emperor Nero won the gold medal for singing, despite having to place armed guards all around the stadium to prevent the audience from attempting to escape the horrible racket by climbing the fences.

Look at all the times that an Olympic boxer has just beaten his opponent to a pulp, only to have the judge (perhaps from an unfriendly country) give the prize to the other guy. That's the nature of judged sports; that's the nature of an international competition in which each country strives to outdo the others in medal counts and displays of patriotic furvor.

All top skaters have lost competitions that they thought they should have won, and, if they are honest, have won competitions that maybe they should have lost. As David Pelletier said, in the midst of the 2002 pairs controversy:

"If I didn’t want this to happen to me, I would have gone downhill on skis."

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

I recall reading Elizabeth Manley's autobiography, "Thumbs Up!"
in which she described the scoring of the school figures at the 1988 World Figure Skating Championships. Liz stated that Katarina Witt, who had just won her second Olympic gold medal, had completely missed the loop of her final figure and that she, Witt, had "completely blown that figure". To Liz's surprise and dismay, the judges awarded Witt first place in the school figures - the first time Witt had ever won the figures at Worlds. Liz said, "Guess it shows that you can't easily defeat a defending champion."

I do not recall reading the "Sports Illustrated" coverage of the 1980 Winter Olympics, but I certainly do recall that there was a lot of angst in the US over Fratianne's second-place finish.
I was attending a performance of Ice Capades in Philadelphia the day after the women's long program - the day the US hockey team played for the gold medal - and we were shaking our heads and commiserating over Linda's loss. When we walked into the arena, a huge television screen broadcast the US hockey team celebrating, as they had just won the Olympic gold medal. Everybody stood up and cheered. :D

I also recall Annet Poetszch's "cowboy" exhibition number that she skated to in the 1978 season, when she won the first of her two World titles. I thought it was a cute number; however Dick Button made a little crack about how curious it was to see an East German skate to cowboy music. Well, why not?

Annet gave a very nice television interview just prior to the 1980 Olympics. She had won the European title, and part of her long program was shown. The commentator remarked,
"Annet, you showed a lot more artistry in this program than I've seen from you in previous seasons." Annet thanked the commentator and said she had worked very hard to develop and improve her artistry and that she wanted her skating to be appealing to the American audience she would be skating before in Lake Placid. She was down-to-earth, intelligent, and seemed like a very nice young woman.

After the Olympics, Annet spoke of the pressures on her going into the long program, as East Germany's final chance for a gold medal. Jan Hoffman had won the silver behind Robin Cousins, but the GDR wanted a gold medal in figure skating.
Her coach, Mrs. Mueller, told her at the boards, just before she took to the ice for her long program -- "You must be strong. You must land all of your jumps. You must win."
No pressure, right?!!

While I appreciated Linda Fratianne's talent, however robotic it was, I also recall reading an article Frank Carroll wrote assessing his opinion of Linda's chances in Lake Placid. He wrote, in essence, that Linda was at a crossroads - she would either develop some artistry to go along with her jumping ability, or she would remain essentially a technical skater with limited artistic skills. It was pretty blunt, actually.
He wrote that he loved her dearly, and he thought the artistry would come, but it never really did.

As I wrote previously, in my opinion, the women won the right medals in Lake Placid. Had Linda Fratianne skated a fantastic long program, it might have been a different story. She skated competently, but not brilliantly, and that probably cost her the gold medal -- biased judging or no biased judging.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

First of all, I have to correct a mistake that I made in my last post about how clearly false the Carroll/Fratianne conspiracy theory involving a men-for-ladies trade was. It's been a while since this annoying subject last reared its ugly head, and I posted without checking, but the evidence against Carroll's claims about the singles judges is even stronger, because there were four countries with judges on both mens and ladies panels, not two, and in ALL FOUR cases the way the judges voted does not match Carroll's conspiracy theory. Both East and West Germany voted for the German skaters, Jan Hoffman and Anett, the Japanese judge went for Robin and Linda, and the US judge went for Jan and Linda (and displayed the most blatant national bias in the men's event by being the only one of the nine judges to place Robin 3rd, behind Charlie Tickner, who was a good skater but blew both the short and long in Lake Placid--the US judge just happened to be a personal friend of Charlie's, too, according to an article).

Anyway, of the 4 possible ways those 4 judge pairs could have voted, random chance would have predicted that one would have done what Carroll's conspiracy theory claimed (Robin and Anett), yet in actual fact *not a single one* of the judge pairs did that, which is not the only reason that conspiracy theory of Carroll's is pure garbage, but I'll leave the subject there. It's been done to death before--newsgroup google "debunking Frank Carroll" if you're interested.

What's sad for me, though, is that Carroll has been getting away with fooling people with blatant lies like the men-ladies one for years, and as a result Joe ends up being inclined to believe something that is definitely untrue (men/ladies conspiracy) because he didn't like Anett's win and doesn't know enough about the Olympic judging details to see through Carroll's men-ladies lies. It's a very nasty, slanderous tactic on Carroll's part. I don't know what he and Linda used to be like pre-'80, but, as Mathman astutely describes it, their bitterness and hatred for nearly a quarter of a century now has really poisoned their spirits. I do think that if Linda had been told after the Olympics that it was close, but that's subjective sport and you have to get over it and move on, she would have been far happier and would have been able to handle her loss in a dignified way that earns public respect, as Brian Orser did in Calgary and Kwan did in Nagano, and Lisa-Marie Allen, who was robbed of one or two US titles by pro-Linda judging bias, has done.

Instead, Linda's family and coach drilled into her for decades that she'd been robbed, so she whines and accuses and sometimes lies whenever she's interviewed. It's tragic both for them and for the damage they do to the reputation of others--and to the reputation of skating, for that matter, since at least some of their claims are bogus, and the public already has a negative enough view of skating politics from the genuine scandals.

Joe, I'm glad to hear that you aren't a big Linda fan either, you're just one of the anti-Anett group. It's funny, because in all the times that this horrid subject has popped up online, there are always a number of people who say that they didn't think Linda deserved the gold and the results were correct, and usually at least one who disagrees strongly with that, but when you ask them to elaborate, in every case that I can recall it turned out that they felt so strongly *not* because they had loved Linda's skating and thought she was as superb as she and Carroll claim she was, but because they had really hated seeing Anett's performances win gold. There usually ends up being a consensus that the ladies in 1980 were a mediocre group, Denise excepted, and the differences in opinion lie in whether the fans think Linda or Anett skated worse, not who they think was a wonderful, deserving Olympic champion. Basically, I'd say that 1980 was a "default gold" year for the women, and wouldn't have been an "unforgettable stunning triumph" year even if the results had been reversed.

Joe, I'd definitely have remembered the sort of remarks that you attribute to Hamilton if I'd read or heard them. I've never seen him say anything about Robin not deserving Olympic gold, and would be amazed if he did say that, based on his other comments. I don't have any idea what he thinks of Anett-Linda, as I can't recall ever seeing anything on the subject from him. Anyway, if you do find anything, post your source, but it's not in the index of Landing It. His book comments there are about things like Virginia Fratianne's expensive clothes making Hamilton's mother feel self-conscious and out of place, or going out for pizza and a movie with Robin and a group of skaters in Lake Placid.

Bonnie, I remember the Katarina Witt '88 World figure fiasco too. Witt always had a reputation for being terrible at figures and being held up by the judges, and others besides Manley commented on how unfair the '88 Worlds figures were. But things like that also affected some unknown skaters. I think Gary Beacom threw a fit and kicked the boards and withdrew at a Worlds where the judges apparently undermarked his figures, since he wasn't one of the famous top-ranked skaters. Still, you also saw non-medallists like Jean-Christophe Simond winning figures regularly, then dropping off the podium due to their weak free skating.

As far as public reaction to Linda's '80 loss was concerned, it think it depended on where you were, and random luck. I didn't hear a single complaint about the results, but I also wasn't at an arena to see an ice show the next day, and you were in another part of the US, I believe. So we have different perceptions of the general public reaction, but the media reports that I saw at the time were definitely not outraged, nor did ABC's people react the way the US and international press (justifiably) did in SLC. Years later, I did find some '80 newspaper coverage from other cities where the writer had interviewed Fratianne and/or Carroll and had their early-stage whining, but that wasn't in my local paper. Again, random luck as to your impression vs mine. Sports Illustrated was one non-outraged national publication that I assumed at the time to be indicative of the national reaction, rightly or wrongly. Of course, if the internet had existed then, it would have been a whole different ball game.

Interesting Carroll quotes about Fratianne--I don't recall seeing anything from him before where he admitted that she didn't have artistry, and I would be curious to see the actual article. I do blame some of my dislike of Linda's skating on Carroll, as he was the one who gave her strong background music that she was so clearly ignoring and skating against. Something more generic and easily ignored would have helped conceal her lack of musicality, rather than emphasizing it. I always assumed that he was just totally unmusical/unartistic himself and didn't realize the problem, but if he actually recognized her problems and didn't try to disguise or correct them, that's poor coaching, IMHO.

About Anett's cowboy number, I think that's quite an eastern European interest (maybe western European too). I've seen an article about large numbers of Germans who do really elaborate costumed conventions and get-togethers re-enacting what they think of as the US Wild West, and Slutskaya did her western exhibition last season, among others.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Lois - You are so strong on this with an incredible reading matter to back you up. It's not for me to say you are wrong. Your posts are absolutely passionate on this Fratianne/Poetsch thing.

I saw the LP, Fratianne did win that and in my opinion Poetsch's marks were way too high. Regardless of the conspiracy theories or not, I can not change that opinion. It's just me.

Aside from cheating judges, my biggest drawback on a particular skater is the lack of basics and in particular edges. Ms Poetsch sadly lacked in this area. Ms Bielman was way ahead of both when it came to edging. (btw, I am an <em>enfant terrible</em> when it comes to Ms Lipinski and edges.)

As to Robin, I was happy to read he got the gold but I did not see the competition.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Joe, I have no problem with your low opinion of Anett's long program, or actually with Linda being somewhat ahead of Anett in the long, though it was Denise who won the long. Those are just differences of opinion, and defensible ones. I'm not asking you to change your opinion on who should have won. I thought that Fratianne's artistic marks were always way too high, but she did skate better than Anett technically in the long. Some of it comes down to what you value in skating (edges or musicality, spins or jumps, complete package vs quads, whatever). But figures were part of the game then, for better or worse.

There's just a lot of Carroll/Fratianne history that people who didn't see the two competitions won't fully appreciate. For instance, have you ever seen Jan Hoffman skate? If you didn't like Anett's skating, I can't begin to guess how much you would have loathed Jan's (I understand he's a nice guy, though). Talk about stiff and wooden. Robin had great edges, if you've seen him skate, though I'm a big spin fan, which is one reason Denise was my favorite woman at that time (now it's Nathalie Krieg). Anyway, while the women's gold was somewhat controversial, the men's was less so, I think fans who saw the men's event would agree. Aside from Frank Carroll's agenda, I can't think of any "Jan Hoffman was robbed" thread or article, as there seems to be a strong consensus for the men that the best skater won, yet a lot of people who've blindly believed Carroll and didn't see that men's competition, like you, now think the men's gold might have been or is tainted *solely* because of Carroll's lies trying to link ladies and men's results. That's very unfair and nasty.

And there's the matter of making false criminal accusations against Carlo Fassi and the judges that Carroll didn't agree with--that's not a minor matter, truly. Have you ever been involved in a criminal case? I have (as plaintiff, not defendent). Even if there was criminal activity in the ladies event, the singles-swapping charges are dead wrong. Skating has more than enough genuine problems that should be exposed instead of distracting people and wasting time and energy with phony ones.

As I've said before, it's not the legitimate differences of opinion stuff that bothers me with Lake Placid, it's deliberate lies and manipulation of the media and of people who didn't see the competition and can't judge it for themselves (as you can with the ladies long, but not the men, for instance) to make criminal charges against people who, in some cases, can no longer defend themselves. That, to me, is a truth and justice issue, not a taste issue, which I wouldn't spend time on. For instance, the greatest Olympic rip-off for my personal taste was Paul Wylie losing to Victor Petrenko in Albertville, but I stay out of threads on that topic.

Anyway, I've tried to make it clear that I have no objection at all to your opinions on the ladies results. Peace?

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Joe, I did see the men's long program at Lake Placid, on television of course, and I can tell you that, in my opinion, at least, the judges (again) awarded the right medals to the right skaters. Robin Cousins' long program had one minor error on one triple jump, but otherwise it was excellent - deep edges, very musical, flashy, strong choregraphy, etc. He was the best that night, and he deserved to win the gold medal.

Jan Hoffman skated a competent program (there's that word again - "competent"), but it was not particularly inspiring. I recall reading a newspaper writeup of the men's long program that equated Hoffman's choregraphy to an "expertly spinning wood tree". Ouch! But the analogy was precise - there wasn't much in the way of artistry in his skating, just jump, jump, jump. His silver medal was well deserved, but he did not deserve the gold medal that night.

Charlie Tickner made mistakes in both his short and long programs but was able to hang on to win the bronze medal. He was awarded nothing higher than he deserved, frankly.

David Santee skating to "Rocky", finished fourth. He skated well, as did Scott Hamilton, who finished fifth. Incidentally, the same article described Hamilton as an "exuberant puppy on the ice". Ouch, again!

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Thanks guys. I understand you both. If I were auditioning for an ice show, I would definitely hire Denise and Santee. Although I never saw Hoffmann skate, I can imagine from the reviews. Was never keen on Hamilton and Tickner. As for Poetsch, sorry, but she's at the top of my top ten Worst. It must have been a ho hum Oly all round for figure skating.

Re: Linda Fratianne Update

Gee whiz, guys. It's startling to me that this 23 year old controversy can still arouse such passion and indignation. If <em>we</em> get so het up over it, no wonder the principals -- the people who actually have some stake in the matter -- can't let it go.

When Michelle Kwan came up with silver in Nagano, Frank Carroll took her aside and told her (so I have read) that many well-meaning fans would now be telling her that she had been robbed, etc., etc. Don't listen to them, they will just poison you, he said. You finished second because you held something back on a night when Tara let it all go. That's all. No conspiracy, nothing to whine about. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.

If this is true -- it was widely reported at the time -- maybe it shows a growth in wisdom on the part of Carroll in the intervening years since 1980.

Frank Carroll's attitude

Mathman, I remember reading that Carroll quote too, and thinking that it made it sound like he had changed his attitude 180 degrees and developed some healthy perspective and maturity and wasn't going to do to Michelle what he did to Linda. Unfortunately, right before or around the time that this quote came out, there were several of the very worst of the bitter, whining, lying Carroll and Fratianne interviews hitting the skating magazines and a few newspapers, right after Carlo Fassi's death in '97, and since '98 Carroll's kept up his '80 whining to the media, especially during the 2002 SLC opportunism. So I can't consider his newly mature-sounding public quotes on Michelle to be sincere or indicative of a genuine change of attitude on his part, sadly. But I don't think that Carroll did the sort of unfortunate mind job on Michelle after her loss that he did on Linda.