Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.

Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Man raises demon in church. Is this a crime?

A WITCH who plans to open an occult centre in Cambridge says he has conjured up a demon - in the city's Catholic Church.

Magus Lynius Shadee says the demon could possess parishioners and drive them to suicide.

He claims to have instructed the evil spirit to "dwell" in the famous church to "cleanse it".

The occultist, who calls himself the King of All Witches, says he let loose the entity to prey on worshippers at the Church of Our Lady and the English Martyrs in Hills Road.

Fr Dick Healey has branded the occultist "twisted" and plans to report him to the police for practising witchcraft in a church.

He said: "He should be reported to the police. It's as if someone came into your home and performed some sort of magic trick without your permission.

"He's obviously a bit twisted to perform witchcraft in a church.

"We will not be performing an exorcism, but I will consider reporting him to the police."

Mr Shadee, a Frenchman with an occult centre in Normandy, claims to have made the "incantation" to evoke the demon on a visit to the city to look for a site for his occult centre, which he plans to open on December 24.

He said: "It's an element, a hunter that will attach itself to an individual, then try to take the person, either send them insane and make them depressed, and the worst is to cause them to take their physical life.

"I did not speak to the priest, just performed a visual ritual format, an incantation, to bring in an element to dwell within the building.

"When I perform, unless it's within the confines of a ritual room, most of my work is on my own with associates observing."

Fr David Paul, of St Laurence's Roman Catholic Church in Milton Road, fears the occultist's move into the city is to target university students, as the News reported.

Now the witch hopes to "convert" the priest.

He said: "I will have to visit Mr David Paul's church and perform a ritual for him - perhaps he will be converted."

Police said a potential crime under the Public Order Act could have been committed if anyone was in the church at the time of the ritual and was alarmed or distressed by it.

I've bolded the parts of the article that seem pertinent, but I recommend, of course, reading the entire thing. I am not a lawyer. I am also an apathetic agnostic.

Firstly, I want to talk about the Public Order Act. Section 5 states:

(1) A person is guilty of an offence [of harassment, alarm, or distress] if he:

(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.

The information in the article supports this - summarily, that there has only been a breach of the Act if the behaviour was witnessed by someone else, and the Magus himself says that he performed the ritual in private. However, this act could easily cause mass distress in the churchgoers, many of whom firmly believe that this is possible. I think it's telling that Father Healey has chosen not to perform an exorcism.

Regardless of personal belief in the occult or religion or whatever, surely this should fall under the Public Order Act? If it falls under another statute then please enlighten me, but it irks me a little that the police are essentially ignoring the fact that to a lot of people, this is a very real threat, and instead treating it as an issue of public disorder rather than anything else.

I realise my thoughts might be a little scattered on this, but if anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them.

Willeth on October 2009

@vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!

It's like someone walking into a bar and screaming hatred at all the regulars. Yes, a crime was committed, and hopefully this poor fellow gets the help he needs.

I more or less agree, this is a matter of harassment.

I agree, but the Public Order Act specifically states that someone has to be offended at the time for it to be harassment or distress, even in cases of intentional harassment. If no-one was present in the church at the time of the ritual, it's still harassment, but is it covered under law and can this man be punished?

If someone's life is based around God and religion, then demons are as much a part of that as anything else, and this can (and will) cause genuine distress. No, I don't believe they exist either. That doesn't mean that the people that do deserve to be scared of their place of worship.

@vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!

I can't decide which is more hilarious, that this guy actually thinks he's conjured a demon that will drive people to suicide, or that the priest responded in a manner aside from "We're just happy to hear that Mr. Magus finally left his mother's basement."

From the sounds of it, their going off of what he said he did in the church which gives me the impression that that no one was around to A) be offended or B) even prove that he did the magic other than taking his wrod for it.

However, if no one was actually at the church, is it possible that this might fall under some form of breaking and entering?

Also... seriously, not doing an exorcism of any sort but the police can solve this? "It's okay God, this is a bit out of your reach. The police have got this one." I think whether demons exist is irrelivent seeing as it is part of the christian belief that demon's at least at one point existed on earth and no where does it say they still don't.

It's like someone walking into a bar and screaming hatred at all the regulars. Yes, a crime was committed, and hopefully this poor fellow gets the help he needs.

I more or less agree, this is a matter of harassment.

I agree, but the Public Order Act specifically states that someone has to be offended at the time for it to be harassment or distress, even in cases of intentional harassment. If no-one was present in the church at the time of the ritual, it's still harassment, but is it covered under law and can this man be punished?

If someone's life is based around God and religion, then demons are as much a part of that as anything else, and this can (and will) cause genuine distress. No, I don't believe they exist either. That doesn't mean that the people that do deserve to be scared of their place of worship.

Devil's Advocate (heh): Are you saying that this witch shouldn't be allowed to practice his religion for fear of insulting/scaring the Christians? I mean, he claims he's trying to convert the priest and cleanse the church.

My religion sees all other religions as threats to my soul. So, if a Christians includes me in their prayers, whether to bless or damn me, does that constitute harassment?

I can't decide which is more hilarious, that this guy actually thinks he's conjured a demon that will drive people to suicide, or that the priest responded in a manner aside from "We're just happy to hear that Mr. Magus finally left his mother's basement."

This would have been a much better response on all fronts, IMO.

You reassure your flock that there's no demon in the church, because this guy's knowledge of the occult is the sum of a D&D 3rd Edition ruleset, Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter, and Stephanie Meyer novels, and you humiliate the fucktard who did it.

If someone's life is based around God and religion, then demons are as much a part of that as anything else, and this can (and will) cause genuine distress. No, I don't believe they exist either. That doesn't mean that the people that do deserve to be scared of their place of worship.

You're right, they should arrest this man.

But I think they could also go further... I can't imagine anything that would cause genuine distress more than, I don't know, telling people that they'll burn in hell for all eternity if they don't do as they're told. So they should arrest the priest while they're at it, it's only fair!

Or maybe a secular government should keep its grubby nose out of religious affairs, and vice versa. We'd all be better off for it.

It all comes down to a case by case basis. If the Christian did so but without telling you, then this would not infringe on your religious rights. If they told you so without the knowledge of your religion, chances are at least it would be with best intentions and again most likely not infringe in your religious rights due to intent.

However, if a Christian prayed for you and came up to you to inform you of this while telling you their prayers would cleanse your soul of your "false religion" that would be very close to if not harrasment, IMO.

If they came into your place of worship and performed a religious ceremony (are there any Christian ceremonies to bring in a holy being other than possibly baptism?) without your consent then this would be most definitely harrasment. In this article, replace Witch and Christian with any form of religion or belief and it should be treated the same, ideally. Realistically, I doubt it would.

If someone's life is based around God and religion, then demons are as much a part of that as anything else, and this can (and will) cause genuine distress. No, I don't believe they exist either. That doesn't mean that the people that do deserve to be scared of their place of worship.

You're right, they should arrest this man.

But I think they could also go further... I can't imagine anything that would cause genuine distress more than, I don't know, telling people that they'll burn in hell for all eternity if they don't do as they're told. So they should arrest the priest while they're at it, it's only fair!

Or maybe a secular government should keep it's grubby nose out of religious affairs, and vice versa. We'd all be better off for it.

See, thats the difference here. It would only cause distress to tell someone that they will burn in hell forever if they actually believe in hell. If they believe in hell and are scared of the prospect of spending eternity there then chances are they already are trying to stay out of hell. This means they aren't going to be who this preacher, or most preachers for that matter, are going to be targeting with hellfire and brimstone sermons.

It's like someone walking into a bar and screaming hatred at all the regulars. Yes, a crime was committed, and hopefully this poor fellow gets the help he needs.

I more or less agree, this is a matter of harassment.

I agree, but the Public Order Act specifically states that someone has to be offended at the time for it to be harassment or distress, even in cases of intentional harassment. If no-one was present in the church at the time of the ritual, it's still harassment, but is it covered under law and can this man be punished?

If someone's life is based around God and religion, then demons are as much a part of that as anything else, and this can (and will) cause genuine distress. No, I don't believe they exist either. That doesn't mean that the people that do deserve to be scared of their place of worship.

Devil's Advocate (heh): Are you saying that this witch shouldn't be allowed to practice his religion for fear of insulting/scaring the Christians? I mean, he claims he's trying to convert the priest and cleanse the church.

My religion sees all other religions as threats to my soul. So, if a Christians includes me in their prayers, whether to bless or damn me, does that constitute harassment?

Discuss.

Interesting. I'd agree, if it weren't for the fact that the 'entity' has been summoned for the express purpose of killing people. Even under the veil of religion, that's not cool.

And yes, I have a lot of Christian friends, and I've been told on numerous occasions that I'm being prayed for. Last week I was told that one friend's entire family was praying that I would become a Christian. My instant reaction was to be slightly offended, if I'm honest, but it was quickly put aside.

@vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!

Also maybe in his religion his demons trump church barriers because they use a new rulebook.

Well, sort of. This guy is saying if you believe in God a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. Preachers say if you don't believe in god a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. The difference is the preacher is warning you, while Magus is threatening you. Sort of. Or something.

Also maybe in his religion his demons trump church barriers because they use a new rulebook.

Well, sort of. This guy is saying if you believe in God a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. Preachers say if you don't believe in god a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. The difference is the preacher is warning you, while Magus is threatening you. Sort of. Or something.

This. It's the intent behind it that bothers me.

@vgreminders - Don't miss out on timed events in gaming!@gamefacts - Totally and utterly true gaming facts on the regular!

Also maybe in his religion his demons trump church barriers because they use a new rulebook.

Well, sort of. This guy is saying if you believe in God a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. Preachers say if you don't believe in god a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. The difference is the preacher is warning you, while Magus is threatening you. Sort of. Or something.

Also maybe in his religion his demons trump church barriers because they use a new rulebook.

Well, sort of. This guy is saying if you believe in God a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. Preachers say if you don't believe in god a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. The difference is the preacher is warning you, while Magus is threatening you. Sort of. Or something.

Wouldn't it be the preachers saying if you don't believe in God, the demons will make your afterlife complete shit? If you don't believe, then there is no afterlife.

There's also the issue of actual recognized religions by government law and cults (religions not officially recognized).

Also maybe in his religion his demons trump church barriers because they use a new rulebook.

Well, sort of. This guy is saying if you believe in God a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. Preachers say if you don't believe in god a demon will make you depressed until you kill yourself. The difference is the preacher is warning you, while Magus is threatening you. Sort of. Or something.

It's fairly often a direct threat of lightning bolts.

I've dealt with this shit a LOT.

Yeah, but the preacher isn't the one conjuring up the lightning bolts and threatening you with them.

Also maybe in his religion his demons trump church barriers because they use a new rulebook.

Maybe said Hellfire Preachers should be prosecuted too?

How about no one's prosecuted because people are allowed to say silly things

To a point.

I'm rabidly pro free speech and even I recognize there are legitimate limits on its application.

Condemning people with hellfire and lightning from the sky isn't quite on the same level as yelling "BOMB!" in a movie theater.

The issue is freedom of speech colliding with freedom of religion (or no religion). And in that clash, I prefer the latter. I try not to occupy my time with trying to convert people, like any of you, and I wish others of my faith would behave in the same manner.

Now, I could get into how there are people who automatically judge people of faith without getting to know them. "Oh you're a believer? You're not worth my time." And there are people who are non-believers who harass just like the hellfire preachers do, or they do it in stealth. In Portland, there's a series of vandalism cases going on recently against churches and pro-life centers get hit sometimes too (which I associate by proxy somewhat).

Edit - tl;dr - people need to learn how to leave each other the fuck alone.

It all comes down to a case by case basis. If the Christian did so but without telling you, then this would not infringe on your religious rights. If they told you so without the knowledge of your religion, chances are at least it would be with best intentions and again most likely not infringe in your religious rights due to intent.

But my religion doesn't take into account the motives of the person who is damning me to super-hell. I'll still be deepfried in demonic transfat for all of eternity. This is very distressing. I feel distressed. Someone should be punished for making me distressed.

However, if a Christian prayed for you and came up to you to inform you of this while telling you their prayers would cleanse your soul of your "false religion" that would be very close to if not harrasment, IMO.

If they came into your place of worship and performed a religious ceremony (are there any Christian ceremonies to bring in a holy being other than possibly baptism?) without your consent then this would be most definitely harrasment. In this article, replace Witch and Christian with any form of religion or belief and it should be treated the same, ideally. Realistically, I doubt it would.

The above seems fair but absolutely unworkable.

If the US is to have a freedom of religion, people should be allowed to actually practice that religion, even if that involves trying to convert people to their cause, so long as it does not turn into stalkerish behavior or becoming a public nuisance.