ExpandCollapse

SPNerContributor

ROME (Reuters) - Pope Francis, in some of the most compassionate words from any pontiff on gays, said they should not be judged or marginalized and should be integrated into society, but he reaffirmed Church teaching that homosexual acts are a sin.

In a broad-ranging 80-minute conversation with journalists on the plane bringing him back from a week-long visit to Brazil, Francis also said the Roman Catholic Church's ban on women priests was definitive, although he would like them to have more leadership roles in administration and pastoral activities.

Francis defended gays from discrimination in what was his first news conference since being elected pontiff in March, but also referred to the Catholic Church's universal Catechism, which says that while homosexual orientation is not sinful homosexual acts are.

"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge him?" the pope said.

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says they should not be marginalized because of this (orientation) but that they must be integrated into society," he said, speaking in Italian.

"The problem is not having this orientation. We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem," he said.

Francis was answering a question about reports of a "gay lobby" in the Vatican.

"You see a lot written about the gay lobby. I still have not seen anyone in the Vatican with an identity card saying they are gay," he joked.

Addressing the issue of women priests, the pope said, "The Church has spoken and says 'no' ... that door is closed." It was the first time he had spoken in public on the subject.

"We cannot limit the role of women in the Church to altar girls or the president of a charity, there must be more ...," he said in answer to a question during a remarkably frank conversation with Vatican journalists.

"But with regards to the ordination of women, the Church has spoken and says no. Pope John Paul said so with a formula that was definitive. That door is closed," he said referring to a document by the late pontiff which said the ban was part of the infallible teaching of the Church.

The Church teaches that it cannot ordain women because Jesus willingly chose only men as his apostles. Advocates of a female priesthood say he was acting according to the customs of his times.

Many in the Church, even those who oppose a female priesthood, say women should be given leadership roles in the Church and the Vatican administration.

Francis arrived back in Rome on Monday after a triumphant week-long tour of Brazil which climaxed with a huge gathering on Rio de Janeiro's famed Copacabana beach for a world Catholic youth festival which organizers estimated to have attracted more than 3 million people.

ExpandCollapse

MentorWriterSPNerContributor

A very appreciable statement. This may bring a new sense of acceptance among the LGBT folk.

Click to expand...

Well, not really.

First and foremost, I must admit that this Pope is doing a lot better than the rigid Pope Benedict. Vatican is a big snake oil sales business as most of the religions because of the obvious reason.

The reason he talked about the gays so openly is because gay marriage is legal both in Argentina,his country of birth (where he opposed it vehemently in the beginning) and also in Brasil. The LGBT community is very well accepted in both societies.

In Fact, the famous American journalist Glenn Greenwald who works for The Guardian of UK now, and with whom Edward Snowden, the NSA leaker got in touch with, lives in Rio de Janeiro with his boyfriend because he can not bring him to the US.

Gays are not marginalized in these countries as Pope Francis claimed, but are fabric of these societies. Carnaval is the largest gay parade in the world for 4 days all around Brasil where people from many countries flock in.

This Pope is not going to do anything for the LGBT because it goes against the Church's teachings. As they say talk is cheap and it does not come with a wafer either.

The Pope said this and many other things like bringing the atheists to the fold etc. etc more loudly to the traditionalists of the Vatican and also to the strong gay lobby there, who many claim forced Pope Benedict to resign.

Co-incidentally, there was a re-run with some additions to a segment on "60 Minutes", a famous CBS news program in the US regarding the Nuns who were talking about birth control and other things while helping the poor.

The Vatican has admonished them many times and now Pope Francis has designated an archbishop to lasso them in. The Vatican is against many American Nuns including Sister Simone, the famous “ Nuns on the Bus” crusader because she was in favour of Obamacare. The Vatican is going after them with total vengeance. If these Nuns do not come into the fold the way The Pope Francis wants them to, they will be banished from The Vatican.

The common verse spat out more often than ever towards the gays by the Christians is Jesus said, “Love the sinner but hate the sin”. The fact is that Jesus never said that. It does not even exist in the Bible.

It is a phony verse which makes no sense but shows piety in a disdainful manner and I have no idea who concocted this verse and claimed Jesus said it, which is a dishonest thing to do for anyone, especially the Christians who have made this as their slogan.

Granted, that Pope Francis is doing a much better PR job with his actions than his predecessors but that does not mean, The Vatican will allow the priests to get married, will have women priests and many other things that need to be reformed which have stopped in time and are contrary to the living today.

All religions are supposed to make us better but in order to do so, they must adapt to the times of today to fulfill the needs of the followers.

ExpandCollapse

1947-2014 (Archived)

To my eye there is a stark reality that the pope from Argentina brings in his message to the congregation assembled in Brazil. And it may be lost on much of Brazil. Argentina and Brazil are very different. I will stop short of generalizing about differences in cultural attitudes toward sexuality and the role of women, including women in the church because these always fall short of truth.

In spite of that, Brazil embodies not only more varieties of cultural expression, including that of LGBT minorities, it also projects a less singular image of itself to the world. When you see Brazil, you see Brazil in high profile with all the facets, the dark and the bright, visible to the eye. Open awareness of one's own diversity also means there will be uncertainty as to how to achieve social justice. One does not even have to seek out South American news to recognize that Brazil is openly aware of that, its naked reality. The strength of acknowledging disparity is that a stronger system evolves.

Brazil makes no pretense of who she is. So I am wondering what the pope thought would come of his efforts there. I place my bets on the traditionalists hailing his views and everyone else taking what they want from it and being creative about the future.

I don't know about Argentina. His message seems to fit better there. As for nuns on the bus, and their continuing vitality in the Roman Church, evolution is the future. Even if one is told to back down, backing down also has consequences in evolutionary terms, i.e., the ability to adapt to challenges of now and the future.

This pope was identified by virtue of the inspiration (Holy Ghost) of the cardinals who elected him, just as all popes have been. The contents of their inspiration sought to consolidate the traditionalism of the previous papacy, hold the line on new forms of religious expression, push-back against inroads of evangelicals in Latin America, and capitalize on the growing numbers of conversions in Africa where the Roman Church has made great headway. The religious sentiments of Africa pose interesting questions; for there converts are more comfortable with patriarchy and obedience to traditional norms of sexuality and the role of women. This pope speaks their language, and they are comfortable with him.

He is the man for the job as the cardinals and/or the Holy Ghost have defined the job. If they are wrong then we shall see.

ExpandCollapse

1947-2014 (Archived)

Also, these threads are a bit alien for me as I don't have a dog in this fight. The question however of how religions need to be serious about evolving in order to survive is obvious in the story. And it is something blithely ignored in many sectors of the panth, in word and deed, and we don't even have a pope.

ExpandCollapse

1947-2014 (Archived)

You know in the movie Camila (produced in Argentina) two lovers, the daughter of a well placed family and a run-away priest plan an escape to Brazil. They are counseled to flee to Brazil to escape the intensely Catholic and oppressively authoritarian regime of General Rosas during the mid-19 century. They delay out of respect for their spiritual mentor. The delay costs them; they are captured and executed in a military prison.

ExpandCollapse

MentorWriterSPNerContributor

You know in the movie Camila (produced in Argentina) two lovers, the daughter of a well placed family and a run-away priest plan an escape to Brazil. They are counseled to flee to Brazil to escape the intensely Catholic and oppressively authoritarian regime of General Rosas during the mid-19 century. They delay out of respect for their spiritual mentor. The delay costs them; they are captured and executed in a military prison.

There is a truth sometimes in fiction.

Click to expand...

Spnadmin ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have watched the movie Camila and it is a beautiful one. If I am not mistaken, it was also nominated for Oscar as a foreign movie. It was filmed in 1984 after the Military rule of General Videla was over with the democratic elections on 10 December 1983 that elected a civilian president, Raúl Alfonsín.

Under General Jorge Rafael Videla thousands of young people had disappeared including 2 priests. In order to get them released, then Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, now known as Pope Francis went to the General's residence to pray. In fact some other priest was supposed to go there but the Cardinal asked him to call in sick so the Cardinal could go himself. He pleaded about the disappearance of the priests after the prayers and they were found on a street with no clothes on the next day. Some Argentine journalists claimed then that Cardinal Jorge had his hands in their disappearance but no one knows the truth.

Brasil had democratic election two years later in 1985. So, Argentina was ahead of the curve as far as democracy is concerned which also changed the mentality against the LGBT in the country along with other things.

One more positive and brave thing Argentina did which Brasil has failed to do up to today is, to convict its Generals and others in the military regime for the tortures and for the desaparecidos. In fact General Videla died in the prison.

The latest military rule in Argentina only lasted from 1976-1983 whereas in Brasil it went on from 1964-1985. The Brasilian military also tortured and made many young ones disappear but no justice has been done till today.

Corruption in Brasil is more prominent and many Senators and Congressman are behind bars because of that but sadly, they pardoned all the Generals and other officers.

In fact, Argentina was the first country in South America to allow the same-sex marriage which passed on July 22, 2010, despite the protests from then Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio who led the campaign against it, saying "children need to have the right to be raised and educated by a father and a mother."

Argentina was once again ahead of the curve than Brasil which allowed civil unions in 2004 but only legalized same-sex marriage with all the benefits as the heterosexual couples this year on May 14, 2013.

So, in this way, Argentina moved much faster for the acceptance of LGBT people than Brasil where it was always tolerated even under the Military rule. Things moved much faster towards true democracy and equality in Argentina than in Brasil.

Now, coming back to the original topic, you are right, this positive step towards the LGBT was meant for the traditionalists in the Vatican as the “Press Conference” took place in the plane during Pope’s return to Rome.

Having said that, we all know that this Genie cannot be put back in the bottle and we all hope the church evolves from here on.

About Us

Our community has been around for many years and pride ourselves on offering unbiased, critical discussion among people of all different backgrounds. We are working every day to make sure our community is one of the best.

Like us on Facebook

Support SPN

The management works very hard to make sure the community is running the best software, best designs, and all the other bells and whistles. We'd really appreciate your support!