In my opinion is the Seattle Mariners. They can greatly impact how the spending this winter goes. They are a team that can go 2 ways: balls to the wall with reckless abandon and strive for a top level 2009 or the more likely direction complete rebuilding. Players on their roster that could and some argue need to be traded: Raul Ibanez, Adrian Beltre, Yuniesky Betancourt, Jose Lopez, Kenji Johjima, Jarrod Washburn, JJ Putz and finally Ichiro. In many ways the best option for Seattle is to trade off any talent of value and rebuild.

JermaineDye05

10-09-2008, 07:14 PM

In my opinion is the Seattle Mariners. They can greatly impact how the spending this winter goes. They are a team that can go 2 ways: balls to the wall with reckless abandon and strive for a top level 2009 or the more likely direction complete rebuilding. Players on their roster that could and some argue need to be traded: Raul Ibanez, Adrian Beltre, Yuniesky Betancourt, Jose Lopez, Kenji Johjima, Jarrod Washburn, JJ Putz and finally Ichiro. In many ways the best option for Seattle is to trade off any talent of value and rebuild.

Agreed, so if Kenny is unable to acquire Figgins he should make a push for Beltre to fill the hole at 3B. I think the only position we can really get Figgins to start regularly is 3B, I really don't think he should be starting center field regularly.

Craig Grebeck

10-09-2008, 07:15 PM

In my opinion is the Seattle Mariners. They can greatly impact how the spending this winter goes. They are a team that can go 2 ways: balls to the wall with reckless abandon and strive for a top level 2009 or the more likely direction complete rebuilding. Players on their roster that could and some argue need to be traded: Raul Ibanez, Adrian Beltre, Yuniesky Betancourt, Jose Lopez, Kenji Johjima, Jarrod Washburn, JJ Putz and finally Ichiro. In many ways the best option for Seattle is to trade off any talent of value and rebuild.
Ibanez is a free agent.

...and we have enough corner outfielders. He hits the **** out of the ball but is 36 and can't play a lick of defense.

getonbckthr

10-09-2008, 07:19 PM

Ibanez is a free agent.

...and we have enough corner outfielders. He hits the **** out of the ball but is 36 and can't play a lick of defense.
Ahhh forgot about Ibanez. I didn't suggest the Sox go after him it was more of a general statement. In a perfect world Kenny finds a way to get good value by trading Dye then combine what we got for Dye with our 3 best prospects for Ichiro. How likely is that to happen........way under 1%.

Craig Grebeck

10-09-2008, 07:34 PM

Ahhh forgot about Ibanez. I didn't suggest the Sox go after him it was more of a general statement. In a perfect world Kenny finds a way to get good value by trading Dye then combine what we got for Dye with our 3 best prospects for Ichiro. How likely is that to happen........way under 1%.
I'm not really sure that's a perfect world scenario. This team desperately (well, not desperately, but badly) needs some youth outside the pitching staff.

thomas35forever

10-09-2008, 07:57 PM

Ibanez is a free agent.

...and we have enough corner outfielders. He hits the **** out of the ball but is 36 and can't play a lick of defense.
He'd fit right in! Another aging slugger for us to complain about!

getonbckthr

10-09-2008, 07:59 PM

I'm not really sure that's a perfect world scenario. This team desperately (well, not desperately, but badly) needs some youth outside the pitching staff.
Ya but if we could get 2-3 solid prospects for Dye and combine them with a Poreda, Fields and ______ it would be worth it. Especially considering our rotation is young and very cheap losing Poreda may not be that big of a deal.

Craig Grebeck

10-09-2008, 08:07 PM

Ya but if we could get 2-3 solid prospects for Dye and combine them with a Poreda, Fields and ______ it would be worth it. Especially considering our rotation is young and very cheap losing Poreda may not be that big of a deal.
No, it wouldn't be worth it. There'd be massively better options for us.

turners56

10-09-2008, 08:09 PM

He'd fit right in! Another aging slugger for us to complain about!

Ibanez is more of a pure hitter than a slugger.

SoxSpeed22

10-09-2008, 08:10 PM

Hank Steinbrenner will be out for vengeance after this year. But it also depends on if Cashman is still around.

TheOldRoman

10-09-2008, 08:21 PM

I'm not really sure that's a perfect world scenario. This team desperately (well, not desperately, but badly) needs some youth outside the pitching staff.Not only that, but Ichiro has 4 years/$80 million left on his contract. If the Mariners decided to trade him (and they never will), they won't eat any of it. You can get a lot more for $20 million a year than a 35-38 year old lead-off hitter. His average was down 41 points, OBP down 35 points, and slugging down 45 points from 2007. I am not saying he is over the hill already, but he is nearing that time. He won't be as fast when he is 38. I want no part of Ichiro right now.

Lip Man 1

10-09-2008, 08:23 PM

Cashman was re-upped for three years recently.

Lip

Rockabilly

10-09-2008, 08:34 PM

I think KW will be making a lot of changes this off season..

I am going to predict we will start the season with 8 new players on the roster

LoveYourSuit

10-09-2008, 09:28 PM

If I am worried about the Mariners in anyway .... I might not watch baseball next year. :rolleyes:

DumpJerry

10-09-2008, 10:09 PM

The Mariners will trade Ichiro the same day you cut off your right arm. With a rusty saw With salt water pouring into the fresh wound.

Frater Perdurabo

10-09-2008, 10:13 PM

salt water pouring into the fresh wound.

How about salty rubbing alcohol?

DumpJerry

10-09-2008, 10:18 PM

How about salty rubbing alcohol?
Yeah, that, too.

Followed by driving cross country with a car full of Cub fans after the Cubs yet again sweep the Pirates (woo hoo!)......

Optipessimism

10-09-2008, 10:59 PM

I think KW will be making a lot of changes this off season..

I am going to predict we will start the season with 8 new players on the roster
That's not all that bold of a prediction.

I'm thinking Cabrera, Griffey, Crede, Horacio Ramirez, Day, Logan, Broadway, Fields, Javy, and a slugger are all gone at bare minimum, and that is 10. I'd say to expect 13-15 new members of this roster. Kenny is going to overhaul this thing.

I'm thinking Cabrera, Griffey, Crede, Horacio Ramirez, Day, Logan, Broadway, Fields, Javy, and a slugger are all gone at bare minimum, and that is 10. I'd say to expect 13-15 new members of this roster. Kenny is going to overhaul this thing.
Which is not at all necessary, and certainly not happening. Can you please explain to me where all these guys are going? Logan, Broadway, and Fields are all under team control and in pre-arbitration. Javy is an innings eater at his lowest value ever.

For the record, I'm sure he meant 8 off the 25 man, not 40.

drewcifer

10-09-2008, 11:41 PM

I don't understand this thread. Most important team this offseason....

What?

Mariners?

Why?

To us?

I vote Sox. Is there voting?

What is this all about?

JermaineDye05

10-09-2008, 11:58 PM

I don't understand this thread. Most important team this offseason....

What?

Mariners?

Why?

To us?

I vote Sox. Is there voting?

What is this all about?

I think in regards to the trading market this offseason, lot's of teams will be looking at the Mariners. I could see Bedard being traded maybe in spring training if he shows he's healthy and can still pitch well.

drewcifer

10-10-2008, 12:01 AM

I think in regards to the trading market this offseason, lot's of teams will be looking at the Mariners. I could see Bedard being traded maybe in spring training if he shows he's healthy and can still pitch well.

Thanks. So the concensus is that the Mariners are expected to firesale despite spending $, having good talent, being perenially profitable, but having bad years in a 4 team division?

I vote no to that expectation. They aren't the Marlins.

Nellie_Fox

10-10-2008, 12:12 AM

The Mariners will trade Ichiro the same day you cut off your right arm. With a rusty saw With salt water pouring into the fresh wound.Sounds like a plot for "Saw 6."

BadBobbyJenks

10-10-2008, 12:41 AM

Sounds like a plot for "Saw 6."

Hello Nellie Fox, I want to play a game. All of your life you have rooted for your precious White Sox. You have sat back idly as a fan hoping your GM would land a big fish like Ichiro Suzuki, but you could not do anything to help reel him in. Until now. In this room is a rusty hack saw soaking in a bowl of salt water. Lose your arm and lose Dewayne Wise. Ichiro is just arm's length away. You have 5 minutes to choose, Win or Lose, the choice is yours...
:gulp:

JermaineDye05

10-10-2008, 12:42 AM

Sounds like a plot for "Saw 6."

A little off topic but I couldn't resist

http://valuesatplay.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/saw-iv.jpg

"Hello Cub fans, I'd like to play a game. For hundreds of years you've sat there while other teams reach championship glory. There's a slow acting poison coursing through your systems which only I have the antidote for. Will you do whatever it takes to see the Cubs win the world series? Win or die trying make your choice. The Sox fans did...."

:cool:

getonbckthr

10-10-2008, 01:12 PM

Thanks. So the concensus is that the Mariners are expected to firesale despite spending $, having good talent, being perenially profitable, but having bad years in a 4 team division?

I vote no to that expectation. They aren't the Marlins.
Owner said the new GM will have a severely slashed payroll.

Optipessimism

10-11-2008, 09:35 AM

Which is not at all necessary, and certainly not happening. Can you please explain to me where all these guys are going? Logan, Broadway, and Fields are all under team control and in pre-arbitration. Javy is an innings eater at his lowest value ever.

For the record, I'm sure he meant 8 off the 25 man, not 40.
I doubt Logan will be back after Ozzie's comments. Usually once a player has his manhood questioned by his manager he's done, and the fact that Logan went home instead of staying with the team through the playoffs doesn't help anything.

Broadway and Fields I think are gone too, even though you're right, the Sox don't have to get rid of them. I think Fields is gone because I expect the Sox to go with better defense at 3B, and I don't see them sending him to Charlotte to start the season. Broadway should be a trade candidate because he's out of the picture here and he doesn't have much if anything to prove in the minors. He got a cup of coffee in Charlotte in '06 and spent the last two years in Charlotte as well. He'll be 26 next year and his window is closing fast. I think Kenny deals him partly as a favor, and partly because he's not good enough to make the team in any capacity.

Javy is an innings eater, and even though his value is lower than last year I would definitely not say he's at his lowest value ever. I actually think Javy's value over this offseason is going to be higher than it was when we acquired him, and AZ got Chris Young in that deal.

Javy has $11.5 million per year owed to him for the next two years. When the Sox first acquired him, Javy was actually making more money than that, had come off a bad in year the National League - not a bad year in an AL hitter's park - and most importantly the free agent pitching market wasn't as crazy as it is now. When an injury risk, all-or-nothing starter like AJ Burnett is expected to get $15 million per year over 4 years, Javy's health, shorter commitment, and better pricetag looks terrific. Both the Mets and Braves want veteran pitching and have the pieces to trade, Javy wants to be closer to Puerto Rico if he's dealt, and the Sox would want to send him to the NL if they deal him. To me that sounds like a match made in heaven. By dealing Javy the Sox could pick up another young pitcher, prospects, and then sign a cheaper reclamation 5th starter project like Freddy Garcia if they'd like to. I have total confidence Kenny can find a 12-16, 4.67 ERA 4th/5th starter somewhere for the league minimum, and I'll gladly take the salary relief to apply to other areas in the process. The only difficult part would be replacing Javy's 200 innings, but if Richard can hold down the LR spot that shouldn't be a problem.

Craig Grebeck

10-11-2008, 09:57 AM

I doubt Logan will be back after Ozzie's comments. Usually once a player has his manhood questioned by his manager he's done, and the fact that Logan went home instead of staying with the team through the playoffs doesn't help anything.

Broadway and Fields I think are gone too, even though you're right, the Sox don't have to get rid of them. I think Fields is gone because I expect the Sox to go with better defense at 3B, and I don't see them sending him to Charlotte to start the season. Broadway should be a trade candidate because he's out of the picture here and he doesn't have much if anything to prove in the minors. He got a cup of coffee in Charlotte in '06 and spent the last two years in Charlotte as well. He'll be 26 next year and his window is closing fast. I think Kenny deals him partly as a favor, and partly because he's not good enough to make the team in any capacity.

Javy is an innings eater, and even though his value is lower than last year I would definitely not say he's at his lowest value ever. I actually think Javy's value over this offseason is going to be higher than it was when we acquired him, and AZ got Chris Young in that deal.

^Yeah, I mentioned that. I said as long as we could get a young guy making the minimum to put up that kind of sub-.500 record and ERA we could find ways to make up for the loss of innings pitched. Assuming we have a capable long reliever for a full year in 2009, adding 20-30 innings to the pen shouldn't result in catastrophe. Trading Javy could make us younger and better in the future, and dropping that $11.5 million could get us some more help in the present.

Craig Grebeck

10-11-2008, 10:08 AM

^Yeah, I mentioned that. I said as long as we could get a young guy making the minimum to put up that kind of sub-.500 record and ERA we could find ways to make up for the loss of innings pitched. Assuming we have a capable long reliever for a full year in 2009, adding 20-30 innings to the pen shouldn't result in catastrophe. Trading Javy could make us younger and better in the future, and dropping that $11.5 million could get us some more help in the present.
Not really. We can win next season. Don't punt when you have a known commodity in Javy. I'd rather stick with a proven workhorse who is one of the best in the league at staying healthy.

Sox4ever77

10-11-2008, 11:38 AM

Why aren't the Yankees the most important team? They have something like $90 mill coming off the books. They have a ton of money to spend and a lot of needs.

Lukin13

10-11-2008, 12:04 PM

I don't understand this thread. Most important team this offseason....

What?

Mariners?

Why?

To us?

I vote Sox. Is there voting?

What is this all about?

Personally, I think it is an excellent thread.

What Seattle ends up doing will be very interesting.

I hope they are sellers VVVVV

AzureJazzMan

10-11-2008, 01:22 PM

Ya but if we could get 2-3 solid prospects for Dye and combine them with a Poreda, Fields and Swisher it would be worth it. Especially considering our rotation is young and very cheap losing Poreda may not be that big of a deal.

What we give up to them fills a bunch of the holes they have. ..again I would think, that it should at least be considered.
So then Beltre walks and Ichiro is owed ****bags of money for the foreseeable future. Good idea.

AzureJazzMan

10-11-2008, 01:31 PM

So then Beltre walks and Ichiro is owed ****bags of money for the foreseeable future. Good idea.

Yes...It's money...Money that they would have to spend. The improvement to our overall look and fundamental play would definitely be worth it.

And so what if Beltre walks...We do have Beckham coming up, and would get a couple of draft picks to boot.

Craig Grebeck

10-11-2008, 01:34 PM

Yes...It's money...Money that they would have to spend. The improvement to our overall look and fundamental play would definitely be worth it.

And so what if Beltre walks...We do have Beckham coming up, and would get a couple of draft picks to boot.
For one thing, the M's would never, ever do that deal. But, neither should we.

Ichiro is only going to get worse from now forward.

AzureJazzMan

10-11-2008, 01:41 PM

For one thing, the M's would never, ever do that deal. But, neither should we.

Ichiro is only going to get worse from now forward.

And Paulie is going to get even better? :scratch:

You're right, there is no guarantee that the M's would do it, I would think that it is something that they certainly would consider.

What we give up to them fills a bunch of the holes they have. ..again I would think, that it should at least be considered.

It also causes us to have even more holes at 1B, the rotation, and bullpen

Craig Grebeck

10-11-2008, 01:57 PM

And Paulie is going to get even better? :scratch:

You're right, there is no guarantee that the M's would do it, I would think that it is something that they certainly would consider.
Enlighten me as to why, please. They want to get younger, not older.

AzureJazzMan

10-11-2008, 03:40 PM

Enlighten me as to why, please. They want to get younger, not older.

I am not sure if you are speaking about the Mariners or the White Sox

The Mariners would be getting younger with Poreda, Logan, Fields...etc

AzureJazzMan

10-11-2008, 03:46 PM

It also causes us to have even more holes at 1B, the rotation, and bullpen

At 1B would be Dye, they can bring in an innings eater pitcher via FA (there are several out there to choose from) to fill Javy's hole, and do you honestly think that Ozzie wants Boone on this team anymore?

Craig Grebeck

10-11-2008, 04:08 PM

At 1B would be Dye, they can bring in an innings eater pitcher via FA (there are several out there to choose from) to fill Javy's hole, and do you honestly think that Ozzie wants Boone on this team anymore?
How many innings eaters are there?

Any of them could at least match a 12-16 record with an ERA of 4.67
Garland is declining every season and I doubt he'd post those numbers. Dempster is a fluke who started consistently for the first time in years this season. Lowe is a Boras client. Perez hasn't thrown 200 -- threw 194 this season but that is a rarity for him. Wolf?! He who has been an injury concern FOREVER and had a decent bounce-back in the NL? Penny -- who threw 94 innings this season and was terrible throughout is a reliable innings eater? Burnett is usually an injury concern and also ain't coming. Lackey will be picked up.

Yes, tons and tons of innings eaters available. Do you have a list that isn't a joke?

AzureJazzMan

10-12-2008, 03:24 PM

Garland is declining every season and I doubt he'd post those numbers. Dempster is a fluke who started consistently for the first time in years this season. Lowe is a Boras client. Perez hasn't thrown 200 -- threw 194 this season but that is a rarity for him. Wolf?! He who has been an injury concern FOREVER and had a decent bounce-back in the NL? Penny -- who threw 94 innings this season and was terrible throughout is a reliable innings eater? Burnett is usually an injury concern and also ain't coming. Lackey will be picked up.

Yes, tons and tons of innings eaters available. Do you have a list that isn't a joke?

LOL...so and so is a fluke...so and so is declining...Hey, you didn't cover Braden Looper in your reply/op-ed piece.

The truth is, there are options out there. I would think that you would be happy about that. I know that I would be happy if we were able to rid ourselves of Vasquez and his pants pissing, lack of spine mentality in big game situations.

So, to me, any of the ones I mentioned would be a solid replacement.

But, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

munchman33

10-12-2008, 03:50 PM

LOL...so and so is a fluke...so and so is declining...Hey, you didn't cover Braden Looper in your reply/op-ed piece.

The truth is, there are options out there. I would think that you would be happy about that. I know that I would be happy if we were able to rid ourselves of Vasquez and his pants pissing, lack of spine mentality in big game situations.

So, to me, any of the ones I mentioned would be a solid replacement.

But, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Not to mention, Vasquez isn't declining?

There are cheaper options than Vasquez for his production. There are similarly priced options to Vasquez for his production. And there are higher priced options to Vasquez for his production. There also any number of BETTER options than Vasquez. Regardless, THERE ARE OPTIONS.

Javy isn't some "special player." Javy isn't irreplacable. The mere notion that a guy who lost 16 games with an ERA of near five while making tens of millions of dollars is anywhere close to the best option is insulting to the intelligence of the reader.

35th and Shields

10-12-2008, 11:49 PM

At 1B would be Dye, they can bring in an innings eater pitcher via FA (there are several out there to choose from) to fill Javy's hole, and do you honestly think that Ozzie wants Boone on this team anymore?

and what makes you think dye can play first base?

AzureJazzMan

10-13-2008, 01:30 AM

and what makes you think dye can play first base?

Perhaps you don't remember, but Dye, actually played 1st base for us in a game in 2005 without error, and looked good doing it.

Due to his defensive skills (which are solid)...I haven't seen any reason as to why he couldn't do it full time.

chaerulez

10-13-2008, 09:23 AM

Seattle will never trade Ichrio by choice. Only if he pulled a TO and kept demanding it would that happen.

35th and Shields

10-13-2008, 01:06 PM

Perhaps you don't remember, but Dye, actually played 1st base for us in a game in 2005 without error, and looked good doing it.

Due to his defensive skills (which are solid)...I haven't seen any reason as to why he couldn't do it full time.

He also played SS in a game without an error. I wouldn't pencil him at first when we've only seen him there one game. If he could play a good first base we would have seen him there more then just once.

AzureJazzMan

10-13-2008, 02:27 PM

He also played SS in a game without an error. I wouldn't pencil him at first when we've only seen him there one game. If he could play a good first base we would have seen him there more then just once.

You asked me, what makes me think Dye could play 1st base...I answered

As to why he wasn't there more often, did you think that because we had Konerko, Thome, and now Swisher all in that position.

It would stand to reason, that if Konerko, and Swisher were gone, that they would give him more of a look in that position. He has the hands and defensive acumen to do it, and do it effectively.

35th and Shields

10-13-2008, 06:49 PM

You asked me, what makes me think Dye could play 1st base...I answered

As to why he wasn't there more often, did you think that because we had Konerko, Thome, and now Swisher all in that position.

It would stand to reason, that if Konerko, and Swisher were gone, that they would give him more of a look in that position. He has the hands and defensive acumen to do it, and do it effectively.

I know you answered the question. I was responding to your answer by saying that just because he's played one game there doesn't mean he can do it for a whole season. It's an interesting idea but there is absolutely zero chance dye will be be at first base. If he is behind in the depth chart to thome at first, he's obviously not that good either.

Bill Naharodny

10-13-2008, 07:15 PM

Not to mention, Vasquez isn't declining?

There are cheaper options than Vasquez for his production. There are similarly priced options to Vasquez for his production. And there are higher priced options to Vasquez for his production. There also any number of BETTER options than Vasquez. Regardless, THERE ARE OPTIONS.

Javy isn't some "special player." Javy isn't irreplacable. The mere notion that a guy who lost 16 games with an ERA of near five while making tens of millions of dollars is anywhere close to the best option is insulting to the intelligence of the reader.

After his repeated failures in pressure situations, I think we're at the breaking point with Javy as a member of the White Sox: I seriously question whether his teammates respect him.

Innings-eater, workhorse or anything else -- if you've reached that point, your continued presence on the team becomes counterproductive.

I think Kenny Williams knows this. Kenny's all about grinding, the idea of digging deep and putting pressure on your opponent. By that definition, Javier Vazquez is the "ungrinder."

So I think Williams will deal him if he can. He won't give Vazquez away. But some of the earlier posts in this thread -- some from those who like Javy and some from those who don't -- demonstrate that the guy has value.