Papist has said that by virtue of my actions (about which he knows practically NOTHING), I am not living as a good Christian.

I do know something about your actions. You have described them here for us all to read. You have stated that you are living with some one before marriage. This has been rejected as immoral for at least 1900 years of Christian history as immoral. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that in this particular matter you are not living according to the gospel. However, I have no idea what's going on in the rest of your life. In other matters you may be very faithful. I have no idea. But what I do know is what you have posted here.

What is the difference if I say that by virtue of certain actions of his (e.g. praying in a Catholic way), he is not living the Christian faith.

As I said before, I am not offended in the least bit by your opinion on this matter. In fact, I am not even offended that you are experssing this opinion. I just think its wrong.

Where has a council or the fathers condemned pre-marital cohabitation?

The lives of Christians for 1900 has condemned it. Do you believe in some strange analog of Sola Scriptura? How do you say, "Ecumenical Councils Alone" in latin?

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Papist has said that by virtue of my actions (about which he knows practically NOTHING), I am not living as a good Christian. What is the difference if I say that by virtue of certain actions of his (e.g. praying in a Catholic way), he is not living the Christian faith.

No difference.

No you are inferring that from his words. And there is a difference. You are trying to hurt him. He wasn't trying to hurt you.

Big Difference.

I'm not trying to hurt anyone. I am pointing out the fact that based on one ill informed piece of information about me that a stranger (Papist) has discovered on the internet through a 10 line exchange, he has made a comment on the state of my Christian life.

Similarly, it' just as ridiculous for me to comment on the state of his soul based on the same level of information I can gather about him from such a brief exchange (i.e. that he is Catholic).

Ughhh

Again, if you will read my posts I am only commenting on one issue that you have brought up. I am not commenting on the entirety of your faith experience. I continue to reiterate the fact that you may be doing some very Christian things in other areas of your life. I don't know. I just know that the one thing that you revealed here on this thread is immoral and I think you know that. Otherwise, I don't believe that there would be such a high level of defensiveness in your posts. Again, I am not upset about you disagreeing with me in the least bit.

I don't find anything to be immoral about it. It's a great thing.

The fact that you don't find anything immoral about it does not change the fact that it is immoral. Your subjective view point is not the standard of morality. I would be very concerned if I was an Orthodox Christian and I was not living according to traditional Orthodox ethics.

Perhaps I don't believe in a universal, unwavering morality when it comes to incidentals.

Hey, are we still forbidden to see Jewish doctors?

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Papist has said that by virtue of my actions (about which he knows practically NOTHING), I am not living as a good Christian.

I do know something about your actions. You have described them here for us all to read. You have stated that you are living with some one before marriage. This has been rejected as immoral for at least 1900 years of Christian history as immoral. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that in this particular matter you are not living according to the gospel. However, I have no idea what's going on in the rest of your life. In other matters you may be very faithful. I have no idea. But what I do know is what you have posted here.

What is the difference if I say that by virtue of certain actions of his (e.g. praying in a Catholic way), he is not living the Christian faith.

As I said before, I am not offended in the least bit by your opinion on this matter. In fact, I am not even offended that you are experssing this opinion. I just think its wrong.

Where has a council or the fathers condemned pre-marital cohabitation?

The lives of Christians for 1900 has condemned it. Do you believe in some strange analog of Sola Scriptura? How do you say, "Ecumenical Councils Alone" in latin?

I wasn't aware that the "lives of Christians" was a source of authority in Christianity. If it was, it would probably still be OK for the Pope to have concubines, for Christian emperors to slaughter heretics, or for absentee bishops of vacant sees to horde wealth for a job not done.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

I wasn't aware that the "lives of Christians" was a source of authority in Christianity. If it was, it would probably still be OK for the Pope to have concubines, for Christian emperors to slaughter heretics, or for absentee bishops of vacant sees to horde wealth for a job not done.

So because others have fallen, and done improper things, it is OK for you to do whatever you please?

I wasn't aware that the "lives of Christians" was a source of authority in Christianity. If it was, it would probably still be OK for the Pope to have concubines, for Christian emperors to slaughter heretics, or for absentee bishops of vacant sees to horde wealth for a job not done.

So because others have fallen, and done improper things, it is OK for you to do whatever you please?

No. I just wanted Papist to show me where 1900 years of Christianity have condemned pre-marital co-habitation. I'm sure there may be sources out there to support this (Fathers, perhaps? ) , I'd just like to see them for the sake of seeing them.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Because I don't owe you an answer to your obviously baited question. I'm two steps ahead of you in your line of questioning.

No, my love life is not separate from my "regular" life. How can it be? It's something I'm engaged in a good portion of my day. It informs decisions I make about how I behave. It forces me to step out of myself, question myself, and negate myself on a regular basis because I LIVE with this person. Because of it my life is immensely enriched. If you had had this type of experience in a relationship (i.e. a real relationship), you wouldn't ask if it is separate from my "regular" life.

Why be insulting? You are now getting angry, and I can only surmise it is because you know what I'm getting at, and you don't want to face it.

I'm getting angry because I knew you were implying this whole time that there is something is something you believe I should not be doing and that I'm not living up to your idea of a Christian standard. Why beat around the bush with transparent but indirect questions

And now, here it is.

You may be living the Christian faith very well in other matters. However, I think you know that in this particular matter you are not. Why else would you have started this thread in the first place?

He didn't start the thread. It's also not your place to tell people what to do in their bedrooms. It's obvious that secular behavior has entered into Christianity. The reason for this is because the family is structured differently now than in past years/centuries. The excepted norm is to allow relationships to form through acquaintances rather than having a spouses chosen for us by parents or peers. Now that the acceptance of this structure has set in. Children are put into situations where temptations are higher. They aren't mentally suited for that situation because of their lack of understanding. They most certainly will make mistakes because of inexperience and lack of wisdom. Society as a whole is responsible for allowing it. For Christian values to set in again. All of society would first have to be wiped out and reformulated from the Byzantine Roman prospective. That's not perfect either. But it does work.

Hmmm. It seems we are having a big debate about Bogoliubtsy's private life, and he does not like it. Why the need to do that? I think Bogoliubtsy is not Orthodox Christian, maybe not even a Christian in the way we understand it. He is liberal. Let him do whatever he wants.

Papist has said that by virtue of my actions (about which he knows practically NOTHING), I am not living as a good Christian.

I do know something about your actions. You have described them here for us all to read. You have stated that you are living with some one before marriage. This has been rejected as immoral for at least 1900 years of Christian history as immoral. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that in this particular matter you are not living according to the gospel. However, I have no idea what's going on in the rest of your life. In other matters you may be very faithful. I have no idea. But what I do know is what you have posted here.

What is the difference if I say that by virtue of certain actions of his (e.g. praying in a Catholic way), he is not living the Christian faith.

As I said before, I am not offended in the least bit by your opinion on this matter. In fact, I am not even offended that you are experssing this opinion. I just think its wrong.

Where has a council or the fathers condemned pre-marital cohabitation?

The lives of Christians for 1900 has condemned it. Do you believe in some strange analog of Sola Scriptura? How do you say, "Ecumenical Councils Alone" in latin?

I wasn't aware that the "lives of Christians" was a source of authority in Christianity. If it was, it would probably still be OK for the Pope to have concubines, for Christian emperors to slaughter heretics, or for absentee bishops of vacant sees to horde wealth for a job not done.

Your arguements are getting sillier and sillier. You know quite well that such things are unacceptable. You also know quite well that the Chruch, whatever you believe her to be, has always condemned the concept of living together before marriage. By living witnesses I mean those who lived the gospel. Would Sts. Peter, Paul, Iraneaus, Justin Martyr, Cyril, John Crysostom, Augustine,... Serphim of Serov, etc. etc. ect. approve of such living arrangements? If you honestly answer this question you would have to face the reality that what you are doing is not right. If for no other reason, its wrong because you may cause scandal and lead other to believe that fornication is ok. I am not saying that you are fornicating because I simply don't know that. But our weeker bretheren are likely to assume you are because of your living arrangements and might then use it as an excuse for fornication in their own lives. Remember, "It is better to have a millstone tied around your neck...."

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Because I don't owe you an answer to your obviously baited question. I'm two steps ahead of you in your line of questioning.

No, my love life is not separate from my "regular" life. How can it be? It's something I'm engaged in a good portion of my day. It informs decisions I make about how I behave. It forces me to step out of myself, question myself, and negate myself on a regular basis because I LIVE with this person. Because of it my life is immensely enriched. If you had had this type of experience in a relationship (i.e. a real relationship), you wouldn't ask if it is separate from my "regular" life.

Why be insulting? You are now getting angry, and I can only surmise it is because you know what I'm getting at, and you don't want to face it.

I'm getting angry because I knew you were implying this whole time that there is something is something you believe I should not be doing and that I'm not living up to your idea of a Christian standard. Why beat around the bush with transparent but indirect questions

And now, here it is.

You may be living the Christian faith very well in other matters. However, I think you know that in this particular matter you are not. Why else would you have started this thread in the first place?

He didn't start the thread. It's also not your place to tell people what to do in their bedrooms. It's obvious that secular behavior has entered into Christianity. The reason for this is because the family is structured differently now than in past years/centuries. The excepted norm is to allow relationships to form through acquaintances rather than having a spouses chosen for us by parents or peers. Now that the acceptance of this structure has set in. Children are put into situations where temptations are higher. They aren't mentally suited for that situation because of their lack of understanding. They most certainly will make mistakes because of inexperience and lack of wisdom. Society as a whole is responsible for allowing it. For Christian values to set in again. All of society would first have to be wiped out and reformulated from the Byzantine Roman prospective. That's not perfect either. But it does work.

I am not telling him what to do in his bedroom. Read my posts again. There is not one place where I told him what to do. However, he did bring up his immoral living arrangements and if he claims to be a Christian, then, whether he likes it or not, he represents Christianity to the world and I will point that such living arrangements are not in keeping with the Christian faith.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Hmmm. It seems we are having a big debate about Bogoliubtsy's private life, and he does not like it. Why the need to do that? I think Bogoliubtsy is not Orthodox Christian, maybe not even a Christian in the way we understand it. He is liberal. Let him do whatever he wants.

He brought it up. He obviously wanted to talk about it.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I say then, all lovers of the world are called the world. The same have only these three things, lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, vain glory of life. For they lust to eat, drink, cohabit:- St. AugustineSaint Augustine goes on to say that eating and drinking are ok in moderation but never approves of cohabitation.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Hmmm. It seems we are having a big debate about Bogoliubtsy's private life, and he does not like it. Why the need to do that? I think Bogoliubtsy is not Orthodox Christian, maybe not even a Christian in the way we understand it. He is liberal. Let him do whatever he wants.

What does a position on the political spectrum (liberal) have to do with religion?

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Papist has said that by virtue of my actions (about which he knows practically NOTHING), I am not living as a good Christian.

I do know something about your actions. You have described them here for us all to read. You have stated that you are living with some one before marriage. This has been rejected as immoral for at least 1900 years of Christian history as immoral. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that in this particular matter you are not living according to the gospel. However, I have no idea what's going on in the rest of your life. In other matters you may be very faithful. I have no idea. But what I do know is what you have posted here.

What is the difference if I say that by virtue of certain actions of his (e.g. praying in a Catholic way), he is not living the Christian faith.

As I said before, I am not offended in the least bit by your opinion on this matter. In fact, I am not even offended that you are experssing this opinion. I just think its wrong.

Where has a council or the fathers condemned pre-marital cohabitation?

The lives of Christians for 1900 has condemned it. Do you believe in some strange analog of Sola Scriptura? How do you say, "Ecumenical Councils Alone" in latin?

I wasn't aware that the "lives of Christians" was a source of authority in Christianity. If it was, it would probably still be OK for the Pope to have concubines, for Christian emperors to slaughter heretics, or for absentee bishops of vacant sees to horde wealth for a job not done.

Your arguements are getting sillier and sillier. You know quite well that such things are unacceptable. You also know quite well that the Chruch, whatever you believe her to be, has always condemned the concept of living together before marriage. By living witnesses I mean those who lived the gospel. Would Sts. Peter, Paul, Iraneaus, Justin Martyr, Cyril, John Crysostom, Augustine,... Serphim of Serov, etc. etc. ect. approve of such living arrangements? If you honestly answer this question you would have to face the reality that what you are doing is not right. If for no other reason, its wrong because you may cause scandal and lead other to believe that fornication is ok. I am not saying that you are fornicating because I simply don't know that. But our weeker bretheren are likely to assume you are because of your living arrangements and might then use it as an excuse for fornication in their own lives. Remember, "It is better to have a millstone tied around your neck...."

You asked it the council was the supreme authority in the Church, then went on to state that the "lives of Christians" for 1900 years has been the testament to the doctrine that pre-marital cohabitation is wrong. I asked if the "lives of Christians" is now a source of authority.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Because I don't owe you an answer to your obviously baited question. I'm two steps ahead of you in your line of questioning.

No, my love life is not separate from my "regular" life. How can it be? It's something I'm engaged in a good portion of my day. It informs decisions I make about how I behave. It forces me to step out of myself, question myself, and negate myself on a regular basis because I LIVE with this person. Because of it my life is immensely enriched. If you had had this type of experience in a relationship (i.e. a real relationship), you wouldn't ask if it is separate from my "regular" life.

Why be insulting? You are now getting angry, and I can only surmise it is because you know what I'm getting at, and you don't want to face it.

I'm getting angry because I knew you were implying this whole time that there is something is something you believe I should not be doing and that I'm not living up to your idea of a Christian standard. Why beat around the bush with transparent but indirect questions

And now, here it is.

You may be living the Christian faith very well in other matters. However, I think you know that in this particular matter you are not. Why else would you have started this thread in the first place?

He didn't start the thread. It's also not your place to tell people what to do in their bedrooms. It's obvious that secular behavior has entered into Christianity. The reason for this is because the family is structured differently now than in past years/centuries. The excepted norm is to allow relationships to form through acquaintances rather than having a spouses chosen for us by parents or peers. Now that the acceptance of this structure has set in. Children are put into situations where temptations are higher. They aren't mentally suited for that situation because of their lack of understanding. They most certainly will make mistakes because of inexperience and lack of wisdom. Society as a whole is responsible for allowing it. For Christian values to set in again. All of society would first have to be wiped out and reformulated from the Byzantine Roman prospective. That's not perfect either. But it does work.

I am not telling him what to do in his bedroom. Read my posts again. There is not one place where I told him what to do. However, he did bring up his immoral living arrangements and if he claims to be a Christian, then, whether he likes it or not, he represents Christianity to the world and I will point that such living arrangements are not in keeping with the Christian faith.

Most people living in secular countries have premarital sex. Everybody knows it's not christian behavior. At the least one should be engaged, but just because his situation is more open to christian eye's doesn't mean that those that live at home with their parents aren't preforming the same acts. In his situation he should be working at bringing his life into conformity with his beliefs. That is the type of help he needs rather than being told he is dammed.

Hmmm. It seems we are having a big debate about Bogoliubtsy's private life, and he does not like it. Why the need to do that? I think Bogoliubtsy is not Orthodox Christian, maybe not even a Christian in the way we understand it. He is liberal. Let him do whatever he wants.

What does a position on the political spectrum (liberal) have to do with religion?

I think that there is a correlation between those who take liberal political view point and those who deviate from traditional Christian and human/western ethics.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Because I don't owe you an answer to your obviously baited question. I'm two steps ahead of you in your line of questioning.

No, my love life is not separate from my "regular" life. How can it be? It's something I'm engaged in a good portion of my day. It informs decisions I make about how I behave. It forces me to step out of myself, question myself, and negate myself on a regular basis because I LIVE with this person. Because of it my life is immensely enriched. If you had had this type of experience in a relationship (i.e. a real relationship), you wouldn't ask if it is separate from my "regular" life.

Why be insulting? You are now getting angry, and I can only surmise it is because you know what I'm getting at, and you don't want to face it.

I'm getting angry because I knew you were implying this whole time that there is something is something you believe I should not be doing and that I'm not living up to your idea of a Christian standard. Why beat around the bush with transparent but indirect questions

And now, here it is.

You may be living the Christian faith very well in other matters. However, I think you know that in this particular matter you are not. Why else would you have started this thread in the first place?

He didn't start the thread. It's also not your place to tell people what to do in their bedrooms. It's obvious that secular behavior has entered into Christianity. The reason for this is because the family is structured differently now than in past years/centuries. The excepted norm is to allow relationships to form through acquaintances rather than having a spouses chosen for us by parents or peers. Now that the acceptance of this structure has set in. Children are put into situations where temptations are higher. They aren't mentally suited for that situation because of their lack of understanding. They most certainly will make mistakes because of inexperience and lack of wisdom. Society as a whole is responsible for allowing it. For Christian values to set in again. All of society would first have to be wiped out and reformulated from the Byzantine Roman prospective. That's not perfect either. But it does work.

I am not telling him what to do in his bedroom. Read my posts again. There is not one place where I told him what to do. However, he did bring up his immoral living arrangements and if he claims to be a Christian, then, whether he likes it or not, he represents Christianity to the world and I will point that such living arrangements are not in keeping with the Christian faith.

Most people living in secular countries have premarital sex. Everybody knows it's not christian behavior. At the least one should be engaged, but just because his situation is more open to christian eye's doesn't mean that those that live at home with their parents aren't preforming the same acts. In his situation he should be working at bringing his life into conformity with his beliefs. That is the type of help he needs rather than being told he is dammed.

You really like to jump to extreme conclusions, don't you? Did I ever say he was damned? Read back through my posts. I never said any such thing. All I have said was that although he may be acting as a great Christian in other areas of his life, in this one particular area he is not living up to the gospel. That is not damning him. I am just pointing it out because he is describing a particular immoral behavior that he is engaging in as a good thing. Rember what the scriptures say about those who call "evil good and good evil".

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Hmmm. It seems we are having a big debate about Bogoliubtsy's private life, and he does not like it. Why the need to do that? I think Bogoliubtsy is not Orthodox Christian, maybe not even a Christian in the way we understand it. He is liberal. Let him do whatever he wants.

What does a position on the political spectrum (liberal) have to do with religion?

I meant to call you a "liberal believer" rather than a fan of liberalist policies. You are not conservative, are you?

When I was growing up in the former Soviet Union of the 1960-s - 1980-s, living together and not being married was simply unheard of, impossible. It was absolutely impossible, for example, to rent an apartment from the state and to live there with a person of the opposite sex if the officials did not see the marriage license. One could, of course, privately "sublet" a room - but if the authorities found out, it could be a huge scandal fro the person who had the residential permit for this apartment and allowed this "sublet" to happen. Two people of the opposite sexes could not check into a hotel, too, if they were not legally married.

Now it's changed dramatically... Young couples in Ukrainian cities are co-habitating on a mass scale, and it no longer seems to cause any opposition, neither from the state nor from very many parents. Our two nieces, 21 and 24, have already been in these "civic marriages." My mother-in-law (their grandmother), who is socially very concervative, was shocked at first, but then said, "ah well, modern times, everyone's doing it..."

And in Western Europe, it seems, no one is getting married anymore. Lesya and I have friends, former postdoctoral colleagues, from France and the Netherlands, who have lived with their un-wed husband or wife for years and years, have children, are very happy, and have no interest whatsoever to go through a marriage ceremony. (Interestingly, one couple, who are our friends from the Netherlands and who already have a child but are not legally married, are very "Bible-believing" Evangelical Protestants. )

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

You don't even need the authority of the Orthodox Church?

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

You don't even need the authority of the Orthodox Church?

For me this would be like asking if I need the authority of the Orthodox Church to go for a walk right now or buy a cat. I happen to share an apartment with a woman I am going to marry - and that law that is written on our hearts has no qualms about it being this way.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

You don't even need the authority of the Orthodox Church?

For me this would be like asking if I need the authority of the Orthodox Church to go for a walk right now or buy a cat. I happen to share an apartment with a woman I am going to marry - and that law that is written on our hearts has no qualms about it being this way.

You compare ethics to walking a cat? If that's the case, then of course you won't understand christian morality concerning sex.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

On one hand, this thread is uncomfortable to read as it seems like one poster is being ganged-up on. On the other hand, I will say that many of the posts seem justified as the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval.

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

And if he doesn't or should be delayed in so doing? And how long would a delay be seen as permissible before it could be construed as inappropriate behavior for an Orthodox Christian? Gabriel has made a very good observation. I quote: "...the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval."

Personally, I think most of us would have a hard time of it finding an Orthodox bishop to approve this "arrangement".

And if he doesn't or should be delayed in so doing? And how long would a delay be seen as permissible before it could be construed as inappropriate behavior for an Orthodox Christian? Gabriel has made a very good observation. I quote: "...the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval."

Personally, I think most of us would have a hard time of it finding an Orthodox bishop to approve this "arrangement".

On one hand, this thread is uncomfortable to read as it seems like one poster is being ganged-up on. On the other hand, I will say that many of the posts seem justified as the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval.

Fair enough.

I understand that from the Orthodox point of view an arrangement like mine will most likely never be permitted by any kind of official sanction. I also understand that because of the Christian ethic/ideology, there must be disagreement with my arrangement on ethical/moral grounds on an Orthodox forum. However, I do not hold my arrangement up as an example of ideal Christian virtue in an ethically Orthodox context. I have, though, judged my situation in the light of my own experience and have found it to be just fine. The objection here seems to be over a question of authority in one's decision making process. Most posters have opined in some form that the rulings of the Church trump the rulings of my own experience, intellect, and heart, whatever those experiences may be. There is a blanket Orthodox response to my situation, nevermind the details, that it is wrong.

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

You don't even need the authority of the Orthodox Church?

For me this would be like asking if I need the authority of the Orthodox Church to go for a walk right now or buy a cat. I happen to share an apartment with a woman I am going to marry - and that law that is written on our hearts has no qualms about it being this way.

You compare ethics to walking a cat? If that's the case, then of course you won't understand christian morality concerning sex.

I said taking a walk or buying a cat. Who walks a cat?

Anyway, can you define Christian morality concerning sex? There seems to be quite a divergence here between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. Also, why do you b ring up sex?

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

You don't even need the authority of the Orthodox Church?

For me this would be like asking if I need the authority of the Orthodox Church to go for a walk right now or buy a cat. I happen to share an apartment with a woman I am going to marry - and that law that is written on our hearts has no qualms about it being this way.

You compare ethics to walking a cat? If that's the case, then of course you won't understand christian morality concerning sex.

I said taking a walk or buying a cat. Who walks a cat?

Anyway, can you define Christian morality concerning sex? There seems to be quite a divergence here between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. Also, why do you b ring up sex?

Because cohabitating tends towards sex.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

You don't even need the authority of the Orthodox Church?

For me this would be like asking if I need the authority of the Orthodox Church to go for a walk right now or buy a cat. I happen to share an apartment with a woman I am going to marry - and that law that is written on our hearts has no qualms about it being this way.

You compare ethics to walking a cat? If that's the case, then of course you won't understand christian morality concerning sex.

I said taking a walk or buying a cat. Who walks a cat?

Anyway, can you define Christian morality concerning sex? There seems to be quite a divergence here between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. Also, why do you b ring up sex?

Because cohabitating tends towards sex.

Has this been your experience?

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

I'm not arguing that pre-marital cohabitation is good for all at all times. In fact, for many it's probably a horrible idea. However, in my case, at my age, with my life experiences, I feel comfortable living with the woman I plan to marry in two months. My conscience and common sense have allowed me to feel comfortable enough with this to need no other source of authority to evaluate the situation for me.

You don't even need the authority of the Orthodox Church?

For me this would be like asking if I need the authority of the Orthodox Church to go for a walk right now or buy a cat. I happen to share an apartment with a woman I am going to marry - and that law that is written on our hearts has no qualms about it being this way.

You compare ethics to walking a cat? If that's the case, then of course you won't understand christian morality concerning sex.

I said taking a walk or buying a cat. Who walks a cat?

Anyway, can you define Christian morality concerning sex? There seems to be quite a divergence here between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. Also, why do you b ring up sex?

Because cohabitating tends towards sex.

Has this been your experience?

Actually yes. I cohabited with some one several years ago. I knew it was wrong then and I am glad that I am not in that situation now.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 01:38:22 PM by Papist »

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

On one hand, this thread is uncomfortable to read as it seems like one poster is being ganged-up on. On the other hand, I will say that many of the posts seem justified as the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval.

Fair enough.

I understand that from the Orthodox point of view an arrangement like mine will most likely never be permitted by any kind of official sanction. I also understand that because of the Christian ethic/ideology, there must be disagreement with my arrangement on ethical/moral grounds on an Orthodox forum. However, I do not hold my arrangement up as an example of ideal Christian virtue in an ethically Orthodox context. I have, though, judged my situation in the light of my own experience and have found it to be just fine. The objection here seems to be over a question of authority in one's decision making process. Most posters have opined in some form that the rulings of the Church trump the rulings of my own experience, intellect, and heart, whatever those experiences may be. There is a blanket Orthodox response to my situation, nevermind the details, that it is wrong.

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

I'm uncomfortable with the entire thread to be perfectly frank. Like Gabriel, I have this dislike of "ganging up" on someone/anyone. The issue for me is this: why did you make your private situation public knowledge? What could you have possibly gained by this revelation? Surely you must have known beforehand that it would not be well received. What you do in your life is none of my business. It's best done in private and then you must deal with the consequences between you and the Lord... you and the Church... you and your own conscience... you and your fiance but not you and us. When you bring this into the public sphere, you change all the ground rules and it's a given that some of us will respond (and probably not to your liking). The scriptures tell us to avoid all appearance of evil... period. You don't need to know the whens, hows and whys of the Church's condemnation. Now you're simply playing games with us and with yourself. You know as well as everyone here that the Church does not nor will not support your living arrangements so don't be disingenuous. The fact is, the Church is the foundation of the truth and not the individual. Whether or not you are okay with it is irrelevant since you are prone to error. The Church is not so given and therefore as an Orthodox believer you must obey the Church. It's really as simple as that.

But then what about College Dorms and orthodox youth who go to college? Yes colleges are usually a cesspool for bad behavior, but the set-up is the same, and the church does not have any real prohibitions against kids living in college dorms.

While most dorm buildings are co-ed, a 'floor' is usually not and has an RA to help ensure rules are followed. I would think that a student being placed on a co-ed floor could object for religious reasons. At any rate, there will always be loopholes with some being legit and others not so much.

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

On one hand, this thread is uncomfortable to read as it seems like one poster is being ganged-up on. On the other hand, I will say that many of the posts seem justified as the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval.

Fair enough.

I understand that from the Orthodox point of view an arrangement like mine will most likely never be permitted by any kind of official sanction. I also understand that because of the Christian ethic/ideology, there must be disagreement with my arrangement on ethical/moral grounds on an Orthodox forum. However, I do not hold my arrangement up as an example of ideal Christian virtue in an ethically Orthodox context. I have, though, judged my situation in the light of my own experience and have found it to be just fine. The objection here seems to be over a question of authority in one's decision making process. Most posters have opined in some form that the rulings of the Church trump the rulings of my own experience, intellect, and heart, whatever those experiences may be. There is a blanket Orthodox response to my situation, nevermind the details, that it is wrong.

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

I'm uncomfortable with the entire thread to be perfectly frank. Like Gabriel, I have this dislike of "ganging up" on someone/anyone. The issue for me is this: why did you make your private situation public knowledge? What could you have possibly gained by this revelation? Surely you must have known beforehand that it would not be well received. What you do in your life is none of my business. It's best done in private and then you must deal with the consequences between you and the Lord... you and the Church... you and your own conscience... you and your fiance but not you and us. When you bring this into the public sphere, you change all the ground rules and it's a given that some of us will respond (and probably not to your liking). The scriptures tell us to avoid all appearance of evil... period. You don't need to know the whens, hows and whys of the Church's condemnation. Now you're simply playing games with us and with yourself. You know as well as everyone here that the Church does not nor will not support your living arrangements so don't be disingenuous. The fact is, the Church is the foundation of the truth and not the individual. Whether or not you are okay with it is irrelevant since you are prone to error. The Church is not so given and therefore as an Orthodox believer you must obey the Church. It's really as simple as that.

It's "as simple as that" when you discuss the matter in a simple way, disregarding any particulars or nuances in the situation while preferring to answer questions in a rigid framework of GOOD VS BAD.

I would reserve the word "evil" for much more serious situations than mine- like, genocide perhaps.

The OP brought up the issue- I responded with my experience. I apologize if my experience scandalizes you. I'm really not upset or shocked over the responses I've received. I've been around long enough to know that my arrangement is frowned upon. Not a shocker.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

I'm not trying to discourage you from participating in any way and, besides, I don't have the authority to do so. But if you're truly serious about these questions, why not talk them over with your father confessor?

Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

On one hand, this thread is uncomfortable to read as it seems like one poster is being ganged-up on. On the other hand, I will say that many of the posts seem justified as the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval.

Fair enough.

I understand that from the Orthodox point of view an arrangement like mine will most likely never be permitted by any kind of official sanction. I also understand that because of the Christian ethic/ideology, there must be disagreement with my arrangement on ethical/moral grounds on an Orthodox forum. However, I do not hold my arrangement up as an example of ideal Christian virtue in an ethically Orthodox context. I have, though, judged my situation in the light of my own experience and have found it to be just fine. The objection here seems to be over a question of authority in one's decision making process. Most posters have opined in some form that the rulings of the Church trump the rulings of my own experience, intellect, and heart, whatever those experiences may be. There is a blanket Orthodox response to my situation, nevermind the details, that it is wrong.

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

I'm uncomfortable with the entire thread to be perfectly frank. Like Gabriel, I have this dislike of "ganging up" on someone/anyone. The issue for me is this: why did you make your private situation public knowledge? What could you have possibly gained by this revelation? Surely you must have known beforehand that it would not be well received. What you do in your life is none of my business. It's best done in private and then you must deal with the consequences between you and the Lord... you and the Church... you and your own conscience... you and your fiance but not you and us. When you bring this into the public sphere, you change all the ground rules and it's a given that some of us will respond (and probably not to your liking). The scriptures tell us to avoid all appearance of evil... period. You don't need to know the whens, hows and whys of the Church's condemnation. Now you're simply playing games with us and with yourself. You know as well as everyone here that the Church does not nor will not support your living arrangements so don't be disingenuous. The fact is, the Church is the foundation of the truth and not the individual. Whether or not you are okay with it is irrelevant since you are prone to error. The Church is not so given and therefore as an Orthodox believer you must obey the Church. It's really as simple as that.

It's "as simple as that" when you discuss the matter in a simple way, disregarding any particulars or nuances in the situation while preferring to answer questions in a rigid framework of GOOD VS BAD.

I would reserve the word "evil" for much more serious situations than mine- like, genocide perhaps.

The OP brought up the issue- I responded with my experience. I apologize if my experience scandalizes you. I'm really not upset or shocked over the responses I've received. I've been around long enough to know that my arrangement is frowned upon. Not a shocker.

Are you telling me that you done understand simple concepts like good and evil? When applied to ethics and morality, good simply means that which ought be done. Evil is that which ought not be done, or ought to be avoided.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

I'm not trying to discourage you from participating in any way and, besides, I don't have the authority to do so. But if you're truly serious about these questions, why not talk them over with your father confessor?

Perhaps the post of this entire thread.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

On one hand, this thread is uncomfortable to read as it seems like one poster is being ganged-up on. On the other hand, I will say that many of the posts seem justified as the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval.

Fair enough.

I understand that from the Orthodox point of view an arrangement like mine will most likely never be permitted by any kind of official sanction. I also understand that because of the Christian ethic/ideology, there must be disagreement with my arrangement on ethical/moral grounds on an Orthodox forum. However, I do not hold my arrangement up as an example of ideal Christian virtue in an ethically Orthodox context. I have, though, judged my situation in the light of my own experience and have found it to be just fine. The objection here seems to be over a question of authority in one's decision making process. Most posters have opined in some form that the rulings of the Church trump the rulings of my own experience, intellect, and heart, whatever those experiences may be. There is a blanket Orthodox response to my situation, nevermind the details, that it is wrong.

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

I'm uncomfortable with the entire thread to be perfectly frank. Like Gabriel, I have this dislike of "ganging up" on someone/anyone. The issue for me is this: why did you make your private situation public knowledge? What could you have possibly gained by this revelation? Surely you must have known beforehand that it would not be well received. What you do in your life is none of my business. It's best done in private and then you must deal with the consequences between you and the Lord... you and the Church... you and your own conscience... you and your fiance but not you and us. When you bring this into the public sphere, you change all the ground rules and it's a given that some of us will respond (and probably not to your liking). The scriptures tell us to avoid all appearance of evil... period. You don't need to know the whens, hows and whys of the Church's condemnation. Now you're simply playing games with us and with yourself. You know as well as everyone here that the Church does not nor will not support your living arrangements so don't be disingenuous. The fact is, the Church is the foundation of the truth and not the individual. Whether or not you are okay with it is irrelevant since you are prone to error. The Church is not so given and therefore as an Orthodox believer you must obey the Church. It's really as simple as that.

It's "as simple as that" when you discuss the matter in a simple way, disregarding any particulars or nuances in the situation while preferring to answer questions in a rigid framework of GOOD VS BAD.

I would reserve the word "evil" for much more serious situations than mine- like, genocide perhaps.

The OP brought up the issue- I responded with my experience. I apologize if my experience scandalizes you. I'm really not upset or shocked over the responses I've received. I've been around long enough to know that my arrangement is frowned upon. Not a shocker.

Are you telling me that you done understand simple concepts like good and evil? When applied to ethics and morality, good simply means that which ought be done. Evil is that which ought not be done, or ought to be avoided.

Are you telling me you see nothing in the world but GOOD and EVIL? There's a color produced when black and white are mixed. Check it out.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

On one hand, this thread is uncomfortable to read as it seems like one poster is being ganged-up on. On the other hand, I will say that many of the posts seem justified as the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval.

Fair enough.

I understand that from the Orthodox point of view an arrangement like mine will most likely never be permitted by any kind of official sanction. I also understand that because of the Christian ethic/ideology, there must be disagreement with my arrangement on ethical/moral grounds on an Orthodox forum. However, I do not hold my arrangement up as an example of ideal Christian virtue in an ethically Orthodox context. I have, though, judged my situation in the light of my own experience and have found it to be just fine. The objection here seems to be over a question of authority in one's decision making process. Most posters have opined in some form that the rulings of the Church trump the rulings of my own experience, intellect, and heart, whatever those experiences may be. There is a blanket Orthodox response to my situation, nevermind the details, that it is wrong.

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

I'm uncomfortable with the entire thread to be perfectly frank. Like Gabriel, I have this dislike of "ganging up" on someone/anyone. The issue for me is this: why did you make your private situation public knowledge? What could you have possibly gained by this revelation? Surely you must have known beforehand that it would not be well received. What you do in your life is none of my business. It's best done in private and then you must deal with the consequences between you and the Lord... you and the Church... you and your own conscience... you and your fiance but not you and us. When you bring this into the public sphere, you change all the ground rules and it's a given that some of us will respond (and probably not to your liking). The scriptures tell us to avoid all appearance of evil... period. You don't need to know the whens, hows and whys of the Church's condemnation. Now you're simply playing games with us and with yourself. You know as well as everyone here that the Church does not nor will not support your living arrangements so don't be disingenuous. The fact is, the Church is the foundation of the truth and not the individual. Whether or not you are okay with it is irrelevant since you are prone to error. The Church is not so given and therefore as an Orthodox believer you must obey the Church. It's really as simple as that.

It's "as simple as that" when you discuss the matter in a simple way, disregarding any particulars or nuances in the situation while preferring to answer questions in a rigid framework of GOOD VS BAD.

I would reserve the word "evil" for much more serious situations than mine- like, genocide perhaps.

The OP brought up the issue- I responded with my experience. I apologize if my experience scandalizes you. I'm really not upset or shocked over the responses I've received. I've been around long enough to know that my arrangement is frowned upon. Not a shocker.

Are you telling me that you done understand simple concepts like good and evil? When applied to ethics and morality, good simply means that which ought be done. Evil is that which ought not be done, or ought to be avoided.

Are you telling me you see nothing in the world but GOOD and EVIL? There's a color produced when black and white are mixed. Check it out.

Actually yes. Good is all that God has created. Thus it is good to eat in moderation. It is good to procreat in the context of marriage. It is good to learn. Mountains are good. Lions are good. etc. etc. etc. Evil is a deprivation of the good that God has created, lack a hole, so to speak, or the misuse of something good that God has created.As for mixing colors, that has nothing to do with ethics because ethics are not colors. The only I can say is, "yes grey is a color," and, "yes it is good because it was created by God."

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

On one hand, this thread is uncomfortable to read as it seems like one poster is being ganged-up on. On the other hand, I will say that many of the posts seem justified as the individual in question a) did post personal info for the whole world to read (and thus comment on) and b) his particular situation does seem to be (given the reasons he's given us) outside the boundaries of permission. Again, it's not our business what anyone does in their bedroom, but if we're going to post it online and then present it as no big deal, it must and will be met with strong disagreement. Otherwise, it could be seen as a tacit approval.

Fair enough.

I understand that from the Orthodox point of view an arrangement like mine will most likely never be permitted by any kind of official sanction. I also understand that because of the Christian ethic/ideology, there must be disagreement with my arrangement on ethical/moral grounds on an Orthodox forum. However, I do not hold my arrangement up as an example of ideal Christian virtue in an ethically Orthodox context. I have, though, judged my situation in the light of my own experience and have found it to be just fine. The objection here seems to be over a question of authority in one's decision making process. Most posters have opined in some form that the rulings of the Church trump the rulings of my own experience, intellect, and heart, whatever those experiences may be. There is a blanket Orthodox response to my situation, nevermind the details, that it is wrong.

I'd like to know though- when, how, and why has/does the Church condemn living together before marriage?

I'm uncomfortable with the entire thread to be perfectly frank. Like Gabriel, I have this dislike of "ganging up" on someone/anyone. The issue for me is this: why did you make your private situation public knowledge? What could you have possibly gained by this revelation? Surely you must have known beforehand that it would not be well received. What you do in your life is none of my business. It's best done in private and then you must deal with the consequences between you and the Lord... you and the Church... you and your own conscience... you and your fiance but not you and us. When you bring this into the public sphere, you change all the ground rules and it's a given that some of us will respond (and probably not to your liking). The scriptures tell us to avoid all appearance of evil... period. You don't need to know the whens, hows and whys of the Church's condemnation. Now you're simply playing games with us and with yourself. You know as well as everyone here that the Church does not nor will not support your living arrangements so don't be disingenuous. The fact is, the Church is the foundation of the truth and not the individual. Whether or not you are okay with it is irrelevant since you are prone to error. The Church is not so given and therefore as an Orthodox believer you must obey the Church. It's really as simple as that.

It's "as simple as that" when you discuss the matter in a simple way, disregarding any particulars or nuances in the situation while preferring to answer questions in a rigid framework of GOOD VS BAD.

I would reserve the word "evil" for much more serious situations than mine- like, genocide perhaps.

The OP brought up the issue- I responded with my experience. I apologize if my experience scandalizes you. I'm really not upset or shocked over the responses I've received. I've been around long enough to know that my arrangement is frowned upon. Not a shocker.

Are you telling me that you done understand simple concepts like good and evil? When applied to ethics and morality, good simply means that which ought be done. Evil is that which ought not be done, or ought to be avoided.

Are you telling me you see nothing in the world but GOOD and EVIL? There's a color produced when black and white are mixed. Check it out.

Actually yes. Good is all that God has created. Thus it is good to eat in moderation. It is good to procreat in the context of marriage. It is good to learn. Mountains are good. Lions are good. etc. etc. etc. Evil is a deprivation of the good that God has created, lack a hole, so to speak, or the misuse of something good that God has created.As for mixing colors, that has nothing to do with ethics because ethics are not colors. The only I can say is, "yes grey is a color," and, "yes it is good because it was created by God."

I thought scholasticism was dead.

So, so far I've learned from a number of posters that I'm engaged in EVIL and propagating evil, that I am not Christian, that my experiences are bunk because the Church trumps experience to the contrary of Church teaching, and that I am a horrible example for anyone reading this forum because it might give them the wrong idea about Orthodoxy.

Aren't there bigger battles to fight? I've seen more vehemence toward my living arrangement on this forum than towards the situation in Darfur.

Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Co-habitating before marriage does not increase the likelihood of a successful marriage, in fact it has been proven to increase divorce rates.http://www.leaderu.com/critical/cohabitation-socio.htmlAnd living together with the intent to eventually wed generally leads to the wedding date being moved over and over if you get married at all. My brother has been "meaning to" wed his girlfriend for about 7 years. Two kids later they still haven't wed. Now the reason is that she can't be on public assistance if they get married

Bogoliubtsy gave an honest answer, and inadvertently posted too much information.

Now, let's not gang up on him, because he's getting all defensive and this is getting nobody anywhere fast.

He's not evil. He is, however, living in "sin". This sin he alone has to deal with. It's up to him and God to work this out. Nowhere is Bogoliubtsy stating that this is NOT a sin, just that he realizes what he is doing and that's that.

We all have our sins to deal with...and a sin is a sin, no matter how large or small....and yes, Bogoliubtsy, it IS a sin. Remember, when Christ told those who are without sin to cast the first stone? This was aimed at the woman which was caught having unmarried "relations". When he turned to her he told her that her SINS were forgiven, and that she should sin no more. Therefore, it is a sin. However, God may forgive all. I would confess this sin before starting anew with a happy married life.

As for the rest....I can hear many stones dropping.....

So, we will pray for our brother Bogoliubtsy, and for all of us sinners, that God should forgive us all, our many sins....and may He grant Bogoliubtsy a happy, joyous life together with his lovely bride, in two months time!

Lord have mercy on us all!

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria