4Real,Think about some basic facts of C-14:1. It is created high above the troposphere in conditions highly dependent upon solar flux.2. It is found in a ratio of about 1 part to 1 million of C-12 in living organisms.3. After 5 half-lives, or about 30,000 alleged years, there is too little C-14 in any sample to reliably count.4. There is no way whatsoever to correlate radiocarbon to "known" times before about 5000 BP; only by assumption of perpetuous equilibrium conditions can C-14 be called upon for dates before that time.5. If, as I mentioned earlier, there was a time before the recent earth-changing catastrophe when the transport of C-14 from the upper atmosphere to the biosphere was blocked by [greenhouse] atmospheric conditions, as is suggested by all fossil data, then any materials from around, during or before that atmospheric structure-changing catastrophe would contain only minute amounts if any of C-14, causing all such materials to be dated with an incorrectly "old" age.

Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Hi Webo, If I might add, if the same folks insisting on the reliability of C14 are to be believed there was once a firm belief in the "reducing atmosphere" and is currently a consensus that CO² has fluctuated enough to drive warming and cooling of the same atmosphere. In addition to cosmic radiation (from my view pretty much ions at varying rates of speed) the sea levels and sea temperatures impact profoundly on the amount of CO² in the atmosphere. To believe this had or has no effect on the ratio of C14 is at best an assumption, and likely an erroneous one. There are too many assumptions. To accept any of them as fact is bad enough but to accept all of them is a colossal leap of faith. I suppose I could go on typing but I think I am already overboard.

I noticed that this forum isn't as active as some of the others are. This is surprising, since much of what Old School or Traditional science says, and the public says after them, like parrots, is based on the time-scales, on the dates, that they assign to objects or events, from the micro to the macro, and on to the galactic. Therefore, the unreliability and inherent limitations of radiocarbon dating, or radiochronology as it is sometimes called, are critically important. Every scientist should be concerned about them. So, here is some more of the work that the late Alfred De Grazia, Prof. Emeritus from Univ. of Chicago, did that discusses this subject: (Please note that all the small flaws in the text positions or alignments are in the original. I might prepare a corrected copy as time allows.)1Figure (Table) 6DISPUTED EXPLANATIONS OF THE TESTS OF TIME__________________________________________________________________________________________Test Idea of the Test Evolutionary Quantavolutionary(mostly of absolute time) Explanation ExplanationI. Earth Surface Features1. Gross forms and Estimate of age, based on Convection-currents from All forms can be quicklyRelations theory and presupposi- hot mantle, snow and created under high-energytions, of lakes, cratering, rain, and erosion define conditions.diastrophism, continental features over long times.displacement, etc.2. Rock (or fossils) Judgements of freshness, Appearances are deceptive; The “eye,” feeling, and tasteappearance looseness, etc. gradual erosion and can distinguish age oftencementation3. Superposition of strata Over-layers younger than Accepted and basic Accepted and basicunder-layers, barring intrusions,displacement24. Sedimentation of Rate of deposit, based on Generally, present rates are Revolutions have generallymaterials observation and / or sup- typical of past rates intruded with exponentialpositions of past rates rates5. Erosion of materials Rate of deposit, based on Generally, present rates are Revolutions have generallyobservation and/or sup- typical of past rates intruded with exponentialpositions of past rates rates6. Salt deposits Same as I-1 plus I-4 Gradual evaporation of Dumping of hot waters orstranded salt waters sudden burial7. Metal deposits Same as I.1 Old magmatic extrusions Catastrophic column fallout orfrom below cosmic dumping.8. Caves, stalagmites Present rate of growth, re- Water filtration through Thermal and electrical hitrocalculatedlimestone, etc., long-term energy digging and carving9. Metamorphic Rock Past heat and pressure rate; Gradual heating and non- Quasi-explosive and/or electricalterminated + I.1-2 castrophic forming trical heating10. Magnetism of Rocks Magnetometer registers last Infrequent reversals now be- Successive reversals amidmelt (a) Magnetic N ori- lieved in with great effects moving surfaces shortensentation and (b) intensity time11. Fluid pressures (gas, oil, Pressure, quantity, rate, exit Entombed fluids finally Continued pressure meanswater) time = retrocalculation break through late entrapment312. Conglomeration Same as I.1-4-5 Waters and air aggregate Great forces from long distdifferentmaterial ances agglomerate materialII. Biological Indicator1. Birth and Extinction of Elapsed time for species to Occurs slowly by II.5-6-7 Occurs by radiation and cataspeciesdevelop, ramify, and be- and individually with slow strophe. “Missing links”come extinct ecological change every where2. Fossil (includes bones, See I.3 Orderly succession of Orderly short-time specie sucpollen,etc.) species from primitive to cession; sometimes devolusuperpositionmodern tion, cross-zoning and confusedidentification of assemblages3. Fossil zoning Ecological life niches oc- Ladder of long-time succes- Disastrous cross-currents transcupiedand abandoned, sion of life niches port and superimpose difchangedand overlaid ferent fossil beds. Vs. I-34. Fossil succession Superposed beds carry Evolution promotes young, Many exceptions, assumptions,younger, more developed developed fossils to higher anomalies, mixturesspecies rocks5. Adaptation time Time elapsed for accommo- New species take long Prompt adaptation occurs withdating to new surround- breeding for their heavy mutation; many vaingsvarious life niches cated niches46. Selection time Time estimates for prolifera- Requires long time Rapid diffusion commontion of species vs.competition7. Mutation time Time between successful With enough time, enough Radiation and ecological dismutationsplus prolifera- successful mutation for asters bunch changes; youngtion for species develop- evolutionary branching species abruptly succeeded.ment “Missing links” rare8. Tree-ring (dendro- Seasons mark solar years on Uniformity of recent past Major gaps and variations inchronology) logs back 5,000 years if evident, earth motions rings; possible substitutematched constant cause of rings9. Fossil appearance Youth and age of outcrop Experts cannot tell age by Experts can see that depositsor exposed fossils and visual examination believed old are really youngbones expertly guessed10. Coral reefs Measure growth; relate to Coral columns of 105 years Coral rate varies with mineyearsby present rate found. Also many fossil rals, heat. Can grow incorals before shallows of rising waters.11. Character of Variety, numbers, ambiance, Views assemblages as acci- Views for cause, dimenslonsassemblages and cause of death dents or repeated incidents of catastrophe, extinction512. Fossil fuel formations Time required to form coal Organic sediments, long- Bull-dozing, deep burial of(coal, oil) and oil term, special conditions heated biosphere and somecosmic oil falloutIII. Chemo-physical Measures1. Radiocarbon(14C) Decay of 14C to 14N in Accepted and basic, with Atmospheric and decay indeadorganisum occasional minor devia- constancy invalidates preproportionateto time of tions 2,500 B.P.death to 50,000 years2. 40Potassim - 40Argon Decay of 40K to 40A in ig- Can approximate rock age Migration, new infusions ofratio neous rock proportionate back to pre-Cambrian 40A invalidate; anomaliesto last melt, 105 - 109 years3. Uranium238 - Lead206 Decay of 40K to 206Pb in Same as III-2 Migration and decay inconratiominerals (non-sedimentary) stancy of U-Lead chain inmeasuredfrom original validatescrystallization of rock4. Thorium232 - Lead208 Decay of 232Th to 208Pb in Same as III-2 Same as III-3ratio same65. Rubidium87-Strontium87 Decay of 87Rb to 87Sr in Same as III-2 Migration of Rb invalidatesratio minerals with 87Sr mea- completelysured from original rock6. Thermo-Luminescence Loss of luminescence of A promising method not Promising, little applied, stillrocks and ceramics since yet applied and reliable in realm of nuclear uncerlastheating beyond 580ºC tainties7. Uranium fission tracks Etchings of charged particle A promising supplement to Subject to radionic disastersdating collision with micas are III-3 and cosmic-ray erasurescounted and related todecay rate8. Oceanic uranium Elaspsed time for uranium Unmeasurable or incompre- Short time (104) to reach preabundancedating to reach present level hensible sent levels of accumulationgiven known input andoutput9. Radiocarbon non- Rate used for dating implies Anomalous or unverifiable Atmosphere transformed imequilibriummethod of decline of 14C to zero in plying castasrophesdating atmosphere 13,000 years710. Temperature gradients Loss of heat is function of Inner dynamics of bodies Declining heat is function ofof planet known conditions, known unknown; radio-activity; elapsed time and recent cataevent,hence tells elapsed earth fractures are hot strophes; heat is escaping attime plate boundaries fracture boundaries11. Soils chemical analysis Micro-constituents of sedi- Normal fires, air, water de- Volume, mix, context permitments (soil, ash, clay, etc.) posits produce exterme revolutionary period indexshowevents. constituents ing and portrayIV. Astronomical Motions1. Planetary and Satellite Regular measureable orbits Accepted; universal laws re- Orbits are empirical; change-Orbits permit retrocalculations of troactive to solar system able by high energy disancientevents genesis placements2. Rotation of bodies Regular rotation re- Accepted; calcuable to ori- Origin of rotation from olderliable retrocaluclations ginal emplacement of motions; all motions changebody;known regular and able redically, cf. Venusminute changes3. Elecrical fields Periods of heavy Earth dis- Speculations; Earth is low- A developing analysis of(charging) charges exist and correlate charged and always has several period by evidenceto human behavior been of cosmic discharges84. Solar emission Solar winds and radiance Minor durations have occur- Major and minor; patternedinconstancy rates can be retro-corre- red but generally constant electrical behavior occurredlated with major events behavior5. Resonances Planets Venus and Mercury The events are assignable The resonances correspondedachieve periodical posi- but of unknown timing to legendary large-body entionsindicating some countersspecial event.6. Librations; oscillations Gravitation explains and Accepted; all irregularities Fossil motion detectable;of satellites permits retro-calculation explainable by gravitation Moon recently emplacedof Moon’s increasing and motion lawsdistance and Earth’sslower rotation7. Gravitational constancy All retrocalculations practi- Laws are absolute and must The constancy is experienced,cally are measured with be consistent with specula- not absolute; may be in anlaws of gravitation tion “unknown” multi-force field8. Age of universe Retrocalculated in billions Speed of light basic; no Irreleva to most problemsof years by “big bang” short-time teory concei- and highly speculative andstarting assumption vable adaptible9. Meteorite ages Correspond through chemo- Meteorites are solar system Meteori recently explodedphysical measures with and resemble primal Earth and acquire false ages likeage of Earth material III910. Solar cycles Periodicities of sun-spots re- Periodicities vary but pro- Periodicities are reasonable ifflected in natural periods bably not much experienced, but radicalon Earth departures probably overthousands of years11. Star movement “Fixed” stars give perfect Where possible event can Star movements are ancientlyintervals for retrotiming be tied to fixed stars implicated in planetarymovements12. Planet and cometary A position today gives a re- No force disturbs much the Planets and comets have bemovementliable position through the orbits of planets haved changeably in recentages times13. Cf. IV with I, III, V Earth-other planet compari- Each planet has its own in- All planets bear the marks ofsons and correlations of dividual unaffected exis- their experiences with otherevents and causes tence planets14. Succession and beha- Planet-associated divinities Mythological materials are Mythology permits increasinglyviors of divinities are function of time when superstitions, gibberish; un- exact and reliable correlaplanetsactive proven correlations tions; V.1.-210V. Cultural Measures1. Mythological time Sublimated and fantastic Pure fantasy, primitive, Simplified hidden but truesequences and/or indecipherable messages, sometimesdecipherable2. Legendary time Collectively affirmed fixed Same but more intelligible Same but sometimes clear andevents and sequences accurate3. Anniversaries Asserted or evident Random Celebrations or Celebrations of single or psytemporalfixation of based upon eternal recur- chically combined naturalintensive event of typerences eventsIV.-14,V.1 -2 -104. Calendars Pre-historical and Often confused but OK if Rarely confused; reflect difhistoricalsystems of in line with present time ferent times; decipherabletime reckoning5. Mechanical clocks Devices, sundials, shadow Unintelligible if not in keep- Correct “fossils” of differentsticks, and process flows ing with present time time-periodscalibrated to time6. Archaeological loca- Cultural data arranged by Usually human-caused or Often radical changes and hiationand succession 1.3, development stages, normal present forces tuses catastrophically causedand causes of hiatuses117. Timed records. Reports of experiences, suc- Often inept, primitive, con- Usually correct but mistakenlycessive events, or astrology flicting with true time edited or for extinct timeperiods8. Memorial generations. Oral long-time transmission Unreliable; too many breaks Highly disciplined, sometimesplus V.-1, 2, One M.G. and much fantasy valid and reliable= 50 year9. Cycles of Ages. Theories of successive ages Mythical and fantastic; Plots main lines of natural ofchaos and creation superstitious cultural history; fragmentary10. Cross-cultural Synchronization by common Independent invention or Traumatic independent invention co-experience experiences of culture diffusion and coercive diffusionitems of catastrophism

So, again, please bear with some of the misaligned text in the original. Here is that Figure 6 again...

(The website was supposed to have attached the pdf here....)(Ok, found out that the website doesn't allow pdfs to be uploaded. That is kind of an astounding mistake! I wonder how many dozens of other people have been surprised by that stupidity.)

Incredible! Bizarre! The extension .txt (text) is also not allowed. And, to complete the embarrasing stupidity of the site designers, the extension .htm is also not allowed!!

That's like saying, you can eat any food you want to, as long as it is not meat, vegetables, or fruit!

You see, I want Dr. De Grazia's discussion to appear here, so that it will stimulate our discussion, and so that this forum will resume. I won't post the entire chapter, Collapsing Tests Of Time, since it is 79 (pdf) pages long. However, here are a few of the pages about radiochronology. I also want everyone to note, that it is the popular culture that will only pay attention to the new, that says that only novelty is good, not the scholarly or academic culture. This is a very American trait, and we have succeeded in exporting it to most of the world, during the past 50 years. We, though, in the academic, research, and scholarly subcultures, know that the importance of a published, or even unpublished work, is its contents first, not its date of publication. That is why Dr. De Grazia is ignored in the websites, blogs, and forums that are part of the popular culture, the general American culture that comprises 99% of the users of the Web. I also note further that these works by De Grazia, who, when he was young, was a Velikovsky protege, published these works in the 1980s, and that very little has occurred in science or been published since then, which is new, regarding the topics and subjects that he writes about. Most of what is new in those areas, can be found, or links to it found, in this forum! So, and excerpt from that Chapter follows here:Jone Dae

RADIODATINGWilliam Thomson (Lord Kelvin, 1824-1907) estimated in 1899that the Earth might be no older than 24 million years if itsmatter were chemically inert and its heat only the primordialremnant. Other scientists disagreed, opting for longer durationsto accomplish evolutionary processes.How uncertain were the stratigraphic estimates of time thatgeologists relied upon before new radiometric techniques cameinto use a generation ago is revealed in their quick surrender toradiometry: it is common joke that the earth has aged a billionyears per decade for several decades, all owing to new tests oftime by radiochronometry [30].Certain elements, such as potassium-40 and uranium-238, whichare to be found in rocks of the crust of the Earth, especially at ornear surface levels, are radioactive. They are sometimes called“parent elements” insofar as they decay into “daughter”elements by giving up electrons or by other means [31]. Theybegan their decay as soon as they were formed. One calculatestheir life-span by figuring backwards from today’s rate of decayas witnessed in a sample of the element. A rock matrixpresumably will contain the parent element and the daughterelement in proportion to its age, unless it had undergone someexceptional experience. The dozen or so transformations usedfor dating purposes include uranium-238 decaying into lead-206,of potassium-40 decaying into argon-40, and of rubidium-87decaying into strontium-87 [32].None of these methods is useful directly for the period since14,000 B.P. because the decay into daughter elements is tooslow to detect over the short time. However, radiodatingchallenges our model of quantavolution indirectly when itproduces long-term dates where short-term dates are expected.For example if, by potassium-40 argon-40 dating, the ocean floorappears to be 100 to 200 million years old, then it cannot havebeen formed between 13,000 B.P. and 9,000 B.P. Also, whenigneous rocks associated with hominid bones of the Olduvaigorge, dated by the same technique, produce an age of about1.75 million years, then the bones cannot be of the holoceneepoch.Major problems occur with radiodating. One is in the setting of arate of decay and therefore setting a date for “time zero” withina reasonable margin of error. Regarding the “time zero”problem, the radio “clocks” work on vast ages, from one billionto five billion years of age. Adjustments in the so-called decayconstant may move all tested rocks up and down the time scaleby many millions of years. Although such adjustment neverapproach a short-term position, they cause doubts as to whetherthere is in fact a constant rate of decay to be discovered.A second kind of difficulty deals with high-energy events.Radio-chemical methods of determining pre-historic age areextensions of the uniformitarian premise that the chosenchemical elements have remained unchanged in a closed system,save for the decay process, since the clock started to tick. Theyassume that nothing would affect the parent or daughter element,apart from the expected normal decay from one to the other;nothing could tamper with the clock. Recent studies cast doubtupon this theory; high forces can break and enter the clock.The concept of “half-life” is used in radioactive decay timemeasurements. The half-life of an aggregate of an element is thelength of time required for half the atoms of the aggregate todecay into the new element. The half-life of uranium-238 is 4.5billion years, calculated backwards from presents rates of decay.Can the process of decay be so regular [33] ? Decay is thelosing of an electron from an atom that is unstable; it thereforeamounts to a transmutation. The occasion of the decay is a force.The force is another particle from another statistical aggregate.This force is regularly and randomly applied to the “A”aggregate causing a regular rate of loss. Each “A” atom has anequal chance of being hit in the bombardment. Hence whateveraffects the bombarding aggregate will affect the rate of decay of“A”.And all “A’s” may not be identical. Some “A’s” may be “harderto hit,” “resist cleavage,” or “repel the projectiles.” Still, as anaggregate, ”A” might respond uniformly to the force causing istransmutation.Radiation physicist H.C. Dudley [34] has insisted that theequations describing radioactive decay rates were crudelyderived long ago: “Bluntly, they are incorrect; but theynonetheless appear in our latest textbooks...Studies have variedthe decay characteristics of 12 other radionuclides [besides 7Beand 90Nb] with changes in the energy state of the orbitalelectrons; by pressure, temperature, electric and magnetic fields,stress in molecular layers etc.,” citing G. T. Emery.Dudley further asserts that in certain cases, the “decay event Ais causally related to decay event B occurring later, such that thetime distributions of all decay events were no longer trulyrandom, as required by current theory. There appears to be achain type reaction operating...similar to that observed inneutron induced sustained nuclear fission,” here citing chemistsJ. L. Anderson and G. W. Spangler.Dudley asks for the incorporating in decay theory of “the energystate of the entire atom [not just the nucleus] and on parametersof interaction with an energy-rich subquantic medium.”The work of Anderson Spangler and Dudley implies this forrevolutionary primevalogy: decay rates for radioactive elementsare dependent upon high-energy forces in the environment, andmay be varied little or much. Radioactive decay can becompared with chain reactions in nuclear fission. Hence, atcertain points in time, especially when the phenomenon of thecatastrophic tube occurred, time pressures (based on today’sretrojections) would have been instantly and completelydisrupted.RADIATION TURBULENCEWe are conjecturing further, here, that major disturbances in theparent-daughter relationship may occur as a result of radiationstorms and typhonic impact explosions. Lesser and morelocalized in effect, and often inter-connected with radiationstorms are jovian bolts, phaetonic atmospheric penetration,titanic large body encounters, and dense material fall-outs. Theseoperate as follows:Cosmic radiation consists of high-energy particles that bombardthe earth sufficiently at the present time to permit the presence inthe atmosphere of atoms of all chemical elements. Both theparticles striking earth and the transmutations of particles arevaried. When, according to quantavolutionary theory, agemakingand age-breaking episodes occurred, the earth passednear to heavily radiating bodies and was also subjected to heavyradiation storms from a distance. In fact, every change in theearth’s atmosphere lessened or increased the reception ofradiation: the cloud canopies, the lowering or dropping ofcanopies, the rising of exploded vapors, the destruction ofbiospheres and the loss or gain of atmosphere from comets,meteors and planets.In all of this, the parent and daughter elements involved in radioclocks have experienced a turbulent history. No pair of elementscan be granted to have remained locked in their crystallized rockinterior since the beginning of its time. There is no way ofcommencing the history of potassium and argon at the bottom ofthe sea. The bottom formed in a turbulent atmosphere andhydrosphere, first wet, then drowned shallowly. then deeplysubmerged but all the while actively spreading. The waters thatpoured in came directly from the skies, through skies via the seaand earth evaporation, and through runoffs loaded with detritus.Under such circumstances the clocks might be deemed invalid.They were set wrongly to begin with. They have maintained asemblance of agreement of very old ages by first of all havinghad similar recent experiences within their rocks, and throughlaboratory fudging of tests and samples back and forth.Yet even “normal” experience of today’s solar system presents asevere problem. Nitrogen contained in air and in radioactivemineral undergoes a considerable transmutation of isotropicelements. Lead undergoes the same. The cause is neutronpromotedtransmutations. As a result, the decay process ofuranium into lead is paralleled by neutron-to-lead activity. Whenas in certain Katanga and Canadian ore bodies, a neutronpromotedcorrective factor is introduced into the uranium-to-leaddecay process, the daughter element that isowed to uraniumdecay is so reduced as to produce a zero age result [35].This kind of problem is rendered even more difficult undersolarian conditions by problems of selecting and sampling rocks,by the fluxing and painting of the surfaces of rocks where traceelements aggregate, and by the need to transfer (with dubiousvalidity) the findings of a test in one part of the lithosphere toconclusions about tests in other parts.Problems of leaching and fluxing are severe. Rivers carry anestimated average of 6 x 1010 grams per year of uranium downto the oceans. If the lead is left behind in the rocks this escapinguranium is effectively turning back the clock [36]. Parents areleaving their daughters, and the remaining parents are beingcharged with their existence. The amount of uranium in theocean, moreover, is so small (10 to the 17the power grams) as tohave been produced even under non-exponential solarianconditions within about 10 million years. With quantavolutionarytheory, the exponential rate of deposit would eradicate even thistime calculation.Helium in the atmosphere is originated radioactively from theuranium and thorium in the lithosphere and from cosmic raysfrom the galaxy and beyond. Conventional ages of thelithosphere require that 1020 grams of helium should have beenreleased into the atmosphere whereupon some of it wouldescape into outer space. However, the rate of escape is too slowunder solarian conditions to explain why so little helium exists inthe atmosphere. Given the amount of helium present there, it hasbeen calculated that the age of the atmosphere must be only12,000 years [37]. That is, some 12,000 years ago, theatmosphere was reconstituted.Radioactivity was discovered a century ago but time-measuresof radioactivity are largely a post-World War II development.Despite the shortness of its life, changes in the field have beennumerous and radical. Its leaders turn quickly in new directionswhenever problems are encountered, introducing new half-lives,slicing experimental rocks differently, and giving their favor nowto one, and again to another technique.POTASSIUM-ARGON DATINGPotassium-argon dating has become highly favored recently, forreasons too byzantine to develop here. For, the criticisms thatcan be addressed to uranium-lead dating hold also against40K/40A dating. Indeed, argon (one of the “noble gases” whoseexclusiveness or slipperiness gave them their name) is generallyto be suspected of vagrancy. Also, the stability of potassium is inquestion. “Potassium can be made to diverge widely formconventional abundance by countercurrentelectromigration.”[38]Argon-40 will be present in a rock if potassium-40 is present andhas had time to decay. Only igneous, and certain types of oncemeltedmetamorphic rock, can be tested. Sediments cannot. Thehalf-life of 40K is so long (1.3 billion years for half the decay tooccur) that almost no argon-40 is to be found in a young rock,and therefore tests are not yet considered valid for less than100,000 years.Dates produced by related tests are often discordant. Materialtaken from the Salt Lake Crater on Oahu, Hawaii, dated from200 to 3,300 million years [39]; the Moon has been dated asolder than the universe [40]; and 200-year old lavas, that shouldshow zero Argon, produced enough to allow 12 and 20 millionyearold dates at Kilauea, Hawaii [41]. I shall only mention that,under such circumstances, in other cases, the problems of fulland open reporting may become serious in the field ofchronometric science; as in public affairs, there arises atemptation to dismiss, “fudge” or even conceal some of theevidence [42].Argon, like uranium and radioactive trace elements generally,tends to rise to the surface of the Earth. Hence surface rocks(and these include all that have been measured) will be high inargon content. Argon also can be infused into hot rocks from theair and kept there as the rocks cool. This could have happened toEarth if Mars, thought now to be rich in atmospheric argon,encountered Earth 2,700 years ago; the same Martian argon maybe what is making Moon samples, so young in some respects, soold by 40K - 40A dating [43]. The U.S. Venus probe of 1978found astonishing quantities of argon-36 and possibly argon-40in the burning atmosphere.Argon, being “exclusive,” “slippery,” and “noble,” leaks. Itescapes into the atmosphere; it flows horizontally. It prefersrocks of certain types to other rocks. On the Island of Naxos,Greece, Poul Andriessen found side by side metamorphic rockswhich, in tests performed in his Dutch laboratory, produced agesof 5 to 15 million, and of 200 million years (amphiboliteultrabasic rock) [44]. Australian tektites have given 700,000 to860,000 years by the 40K - 40A method in 7 to 20 thousandyear-old strata [45].Funkhauser and Naughton, faced by the Hawaiian incongruities,speculated that excess argon could be held in crystalirregularities and imperfections such as grain boundaries anddislocations in the rocks. This likely theory would appear tothrow the K-A ratio upon the mercy of petrology rather thanchronology.Granted argon is more abundant in rocks nearer the surface, alava flow will erupt melted surface rock first, than lower rock,then still lower rock. This may falsely date a set of lavas,although the law of superposition is correct. As the lawdemands, the strata of lava on top will be younger (and hold lessargon) than the strata below (with more argon); moreover all willbe very old for the reasons given above. As matters stand, itwould be a grave risk for geology to rearrange the phanerozoicscale according to 40K - 40A dating principles.(excerpt from Chapter 3, Collapsing Tests Of Time, from Chaos and Creation)

@Lloyd, Thanks for those links. I'll be taking a look at that today. It is good to see activity on this forum. Like so many of the other forums on this site, this is information that needs to be made available to high school, college, and university students, if not taught to them. And therefore it must be made available to their instructors, as well, or taught to them. I have found only a few other instructors, on campuses other than U. of Chicago, who are teaching De Grazia's Quantavolution. I wonder if there isn't a way for us to re-post these comments on a website, that academic instructors blog on.JD.

@Lloyd, I want to add that, Prof. De Grazia published the first account of scientific creation, that is scientific, shows how humans were created, and employs the information about the effects on life on earth that the EU model describes! Perhaps one of us could mention that to whomever made that "scientific creation" website. If you're curious, his account is in Homo Schizo I, http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavolution/QUANTAVOL/hs1_docs/hs1_1.pdf. BTW you can download those for free, in pdf, text, or HTML formats. (I'm into freedom of information, here as applied to scholarly and academic publications.)JD

Jone, if you'd like to help compile useful data or source links etc on this or similar topics, Charles' site has good places to do that, such as here, http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=4741-4742-7455.4742-7455, where anyone can start a forum on such topics or just post material there, either individually or in group efforts.

Great; thank you for the link, Lloyd. The site doesn't seem very active right now, but we'll see. But I do like to see the activity on the Thunderbolts forums. Of course, you are welcome to post or comment on my already existing blog site, jonedae.wordpress.com . Lot of interesting links for you there.JD

I posted a message where I said I believed C14 dating was cross confirmed by ice cores and tree rings. I take that back now that I have seen the data on the Lost Squadron of the P-38 WWII fighters found under the ice in Greenland. This find falsifies all ice core data, doesn't it? So the claims made that ice cores and tree rings correspond must be wrong.

Now I no longer trust any of these dating methods.

Reader, if you are not aware of the P-38s data just do a Google query like this: p-38 lost squadron ice cores

What we find is that a squadron WWII airplanes were abandoned in Greenland in the 1940s. They have recently been found beneath many thousands of ice layers at about 268 feet depth in the ice. This totally falsifies the theories of ice core dating, which says the planes are thousands of years old.

4Real said: This find falsifies all ice core data, doesn't it? So the claims made that ice cores and tree rings correspond must be wrong. Now I no longer trust any of these dating methods.

It may be possible to get some general time frame agreement among such dating methods, but it's much more complicated than what the science media and major media pretend.

Catastrophists have discussed most dating methods since at least the 1970s, when I first started reading such discussions. Right away, like in Talbott's Pensee' magazine etc, they pointed out that tree ring thicknesses vary considerably even in nearby locations. For example, if a tree grows in a valley, its rings will differ much from one that grows high on a hillside. A drought will cause poor ring growth on the hillside, while the one in the valley will have normal good growth.

It's a bit like finger-printing though. If you get enough microscopic details, you can find correlations among methods that are more reliable. I heard that volcanoes tend to have unique "fingerprints" in the form of element and maybe isotope abundances, which means the percent of each element or isotope found at a location. Volcanic eruptions that span the globe then are likely to be detectable worldwide, wherever that debris has not been eroded away too much. That's like smearing fingerprints. As long as fingerprints aren't smeared or abraded too much, they'll be very reliable. The Santorini volcanic eruption is said to have a fingerprint on land, maybe on seafloors, and also in the ice sheet cores. So those datings may be fairly accurate.

However, it's wrong for conventional science to assume that only one layer of snow was always deposited on the ice sheets each year and that none of the layers melted. Catastrophism finds that during global cataclysms unusually heavy snow on ice sheets, as well as flooding over large areas, and in some places drought, and other disasters likely occurred. This means that much of the ice sheets may have been deposited in very short time periods either once or a number of times.

Since the global cataclysms seem to have ended about 4,500 to 5,000 years ago, dating after that is likely to be more reliable than before that. I heard yesterday that stone henge was C-14 dated to 4,500 years BP and a second nearby wood henge recently found dates to the same time. So those structures apparently were built right after the cataclysms ended, although C-14 dating can be off normally by a few hundred years. In some cases it can be more off.

Conventional science has a habit of Jumping to Conclusions, which is totally unscientific. That's corruption in science that allows that. The more forensic methods etc are adapted, the more accurate dating methods can become. Scott Wolter claims to be a forensic geologist and his findings are shown on a tv show, called America Unearthed, I think. He's finding quite a bit of evidence of Europeans in America long before Columbus. The Great Lakes area was apparently mined for copper by Europeans 3,500 years ago, which produced the Bronze Age. So interesting findings are always coming along.