A Thought

October 30th, 2013, 21:56

Quite serious, actually. I've sparred in boxing for close to 30 yrs and fenced for almost 25, so I get the sense of competing against someone else. I just never understood it as an online function. I certainly didn't mean assaulting someone, what kind of moron would do that, or even contemplate it? Believe me, at my gym there are usually a few guys that'll step into the ring with anyone, or wrestle/fence.

Originally Posted by Carnifex
Quite serious, actually. I've sparred in boxing for close to 30 yrs and fenced for almost 25, so I get the sense of competing against someone else. I just never understood it as an online function. I certainly didn't mean assaulting someone, what kind of moron would do that, or even contemplate it? Believe me, at my gym there are usually a few guys that'll step into the ring with anyone, or wrestle/fence.

Ahhh, ok, I get it. They're just play-fights that you're into But they're better than, say, a Streetfighter 4 tourny cos you actually get hit? Or is it that you like getting really physical with a strong man in a play-wrestle? Pinning him down with your strong arms, getting your face real close to his butt in some kinda lock?

I'll tell you, shit can get very real playing games. I almost got stabbed by asians playing Streetfighter 2 arcades in the city for kicking some drug dealers ass repeatedly with what he thought was a bullshit combo. Much more dangerous than a friendly spa with the local steroid pumping beefcakes.

I think maybe you just don't pvp cos you suck at games? How's that assault looking now? Bet you wanna pin me down and smell my deodorant, don't ya!

Edit: Hey, I got a good one. Why pvp online? So you don't have to smell peoples fucking feet!

You can't balance two classes by having two players of vastly different skill level compete. Likewise, if the players are not "the best" and therefore don't know how to play their class to its fullest potential you won't get a clear representation of class balance either.

What you want are two players of equal skill who know how to get 100% out of their class and are therefore considered the best.

This is a perfectly reasonable and obvious statement to make. What on earth are you carrying on about!? xD

If reasonable is doing this that cant work, then it is reasonable.

It cant work in video gaming. Video games are played through proxies (avatars)
Such it is hard to determine when players of different classes/avatars… are of equal skill.

Reciprocally, two avatars etc could be balanced but one avatar requiring more skills than another. Therefore imbalance must be introduce in order to make up for the higher skill requirement.

The impossibility to balance a game regardless of the players'skill, that is providing a ruleset hanging on by itself follows.

Playing through avatar adds a layer hard to manage and makes balancing an endless, impossible to fulfill promise.

Balancing toward the best is going to be the norm for any game that comes with a professional scene. Not because the best allows balancing, they do not. But because they are potentially a source of revenues.
What matters in this configuration is that players who are involved in a paid scheme (watching them play makes money) delivers a show that spurs sales.
If for any reason, one avatar set is not supported by a talented pool of players, leading that avatar set to be under-represented in tournament resluts, that could lead to a decrease in sales as potential buyers wanting to play that avatar set are not going to play it. Hence the game must be imbalanced toward that particular avatar set to boost sales.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
If reasonable is doing this that cant work, then it is reasonable.

It cant work in video gaming. Video games are played through proxies (avatars)
Such it is hard to determine when players of different classes/avatars… are of equal skill.

Reciprocally, two avatars etc could be balanced but one avatar requiring more skills than another. Therefore imbalance must be introduce in order to make up for the higher skill requirement.

The impossibility to balance a game regardless of the players'skill, that is providing a ruleset hanging on by itself follows.

Playing through avatar adds a layer hard to manage and makes balancing an endless, impossible to fulfill promise.

Balancing toward the best is going to be the norm for any game that comes with a professional scene. Not because the best allows balancing, they do not. But because they are potentially a source of revenues.
What matters in this configuration is that players who are involved in a paid scheme (watching them play makes money) delivers a show that spurs sales.
If for any reason, one avatar set is not supported by a talented pool of players, leading that avatar set to be under-represented in tournament resluts, that could lead to a decrease in sales as potential buyers wanting to play that avatar set are not going to play it. Hence the game must be imbalanced toward that particular avatar set to boost sales.

You make some good points. Let me see that I understand them properly…

1. It is hard to determine when players are of equal skill.

2. Having to press more buttons to deal the same amount of damage over the same amount of time is deserving of extra damage (the imbalance you speak of) to compensate for the extra keystrokes the player is required to memorise, regardless of DPS?

3. True balance is impossible without mirror match.

4. When you say developers balance "toward" the best you mean in their favour? Making the popular avatars, or avatars used by popular players, overpowered in order to sell more games?

1, 3. I agree. Good balance is very hard, especially with a diverse selection of heroes/skills.
Eg. Starcraft did a great job but the balancing could go on forever without being "perfect". Same with World of warcraft which has very popular PvP.

4. Hearsay? Can you give me an example?
Eg. I don't think World of Warcraft or Starcraft sold many extra copies because of one class being overpowered. The nerf-stick is always looming overhead.

2. I suppose this depends on what utility the extra buttons add to the combo.

eg. One player1 might do 100 damage with 2 spells requiring 6 seconds total time to perform, while player2 does 100 damage with 3 spells over 6 seconds time. Should the player2 do extra damage because he had to use a third spell? How much extra damage? What if the third spell had a utility mechanic, such as a root, slow, snare, stun, etc. In this case surely his damage should be lowered to compensate for the extra time this utility gives him to cast a fourth spell while player1 is disabled?

The beginning of game balancing starts on paper. It's implemented, tested internally and then released to the players. But it is not the new player who discovers imbalance that the developers have overlooked; it's the most experienced, the "best" players. It's not until you have mastered all the classes that you can really compare them accurately. The new player does not understand why he lost beyond that he does not understand the game! Therefore, the best post-release balance discussions will always come from the top players.

I think while a lot of what you say is true it doesn't make what I say any less true but exists happily alongside my points?

edit, PS: I think maybe the miscommunication here is reflexes vs experience as being the "best"… Who is better at football; the star player or the coach? Like, one player is master of FIFA 2014 and the other Football Manager 2014… Who is better at Soccer? Anyway, It's very late. I must sleep. I'll be back later on tomorrow.

Usually, when measuring things, everything else is made equal (this means, by the way, that measurement tools are conceived independently of the quantities they measure)

For video gaming

How to determine players' relative skills? By getting them to play the game.

How to conceive a measurement tool (game) that is proper to measure skills? By getting it played by players of equal skills.

Loop: producing a proper measurement tool, players of equal skills are required. To determine the skills of players, they must be measured by playing the game. Rather to difficult to bypass.

Another problem: video games are also designed to return outcomes as: winner/loser.

By design, there cant be draws. One must win or lose.
Yet the expected returned result for players of equal skills is not either winner or loser but draw.
And the measurement tool does not allow that result to be returned.

My personal view is that from the bottom upwards to the top. Call me a commie if you want to, but I'm always looking at things from the sheep's point of view.

Therefore, I'd rather like to see a game to be balanced so that people can have a good, healthy starter position against others.

In SWTOR, there's a thing called "Expertise" built-in. It's a part of PvP armor, and it both ( ! ) a) reduced the damage taked + b) increases the damage produced. Both at the same time.

This, those who are at the top of this "gear race" are benefiting from both - and this is - in my opinion - an huge drawback for casual gamers.

They have been helped by an measuring system called "Bolster". It takes item stats and pushes them so high that PvE players get an reasonably good starting position - with the pure PvP gear still being much better.

Me, I don't want a) PvP to be dominated by he profesionals alone. I want everyone to have some fun there, not just the elitists.

And that's why I'm positive towards balancing games so that even casuals and thise not being the best of the best stand/have a chance - and won't become cannon fodder.

And b) I just don't want PvP to become eSports. People in the PvP scene there have already expressed that they'd like to have that - but in the end - and this is my biggest gripe here - it creates a "closed circle" of people who are monopolizing a portion of the game just for themselves. Epeen and such. Elitists reassuring each others that they are indeed elitists.

In PvE, there is a similar thing, although I - personally - don't view it as such an massive danger yet : It's the "Progress groups". Those who cry out "First !" when it comes to "content clearing". It's like defloration of game content - and then bragging about it, world-wide. "I have been in that guild that did it."

This is an reputation-thing, too, just like with eSports : Names get known. Everyone bows before the Mighty Master.

And money is spent. Of course, eSports has become a business. Money's going round. LOTS of money.

But basically, this business is not only exploiting something - it's ruining it.
It's as if you had a small path for walking around a near lake, you really love it to walk there, because of the landscape, it's easy and refreshing to walk there …
But you see an increasing numbr of joggers and runners there, doing thir sports training there.
Then, at one point, they - these runners - decide tht this walking path was perfect for them. They decide to make a running course out of it. Maybe for Marathon, maybe for something else, but for sports all in all.
They begin to reshape this walking path. The walking path gets fixed by workers, thy put stone plates on it, or tar to get it into a shape for the runners. So that they can run much better there now.
And then, the number of runners there increases. More and more get there. It becomes louder, too.
And then the animals flee. It gets too much for them. The first cabins selling water, towels and snacks and so on arrive.
Everything is made so that this what once was a nice and cosy walking path becomes a racing arena. At one point, even car racers might learn of this place, and they might even decide that it is a good course for them, too. So the runner's course get's plastered so that it can carry the eight of karts, and later even of racing cars.
It becomes loud when the racing cars go there with their highest speed. The animals have long gone, the water becomes mucky, bown and unhealthy, gas has been flowing into it from leaks. Gas stations have arrived, selling what they are used to sell.
Spectator seats are built up. Someone has had the idea to let spectators watch these cars. There's money in it. Races can become a show. People want to be entertained. There's prozes ahead. Who will be the fastest racer ?

In the end, what once was a nice and cosy walking park has become an racing arena. The water has been drained of sucked off the lake, there are buildings dominating the scenery. Nature has long gone.

The joggers/runners are long gone, they have found themselves another place, staring this vicious circle again.

After a few hundred of years, the racing arena lies broken in ruins. Racing isn't fashionable anymore. People have moved elsewhere. Towards new sorts/forms of sports.

It is raining. The water is splashing down between the defunct building with their broken roofs, the water has been worndown, the outcries of the spectators have long vanished. As does the noise from the racing cars. They're long gone.

The dripply-drop of the falling water forms a small pool. Insects are walking and running around here. A small snail is moving along the border of the pool. A few plants are standing thre. They don't get much light from between the toweing buildings, but enough is enough.

They are growing within the cracks of the tar, the cracks between the stone plates, on the buildings and on the cracking remains of what once was an racing arena.

Over the years, the pool is slowly but steadily growing. Insects are there, and the first birds have arrived to snatch them from the ground, which is now covered by a thin layer of grass which is growing from the cracks all over the place. Snails are feeding from the plants growing everywhere now, and there are noises like howling wind, insects, and birds contribute.

The first small bushes have arrived, grown, and the first small tree is trying to break through an building's stone.

One day, the defunct buildings are torn down. Which creates lots of ittitation among the birds, insects & plants.
But some weird people have remembered that there was once a small lake, they have found it on yellowed maps, and they have decided to give this place a face again.
They are making it green, again.

They put back relatives of those plants and animals that were once at home there. They fill the lake with water again. They pust fishes into it again.

At one point, they dream, someone might perhaps decide to take a walk around this lake, some time in the distant future …

And this time, they have learned.

And this is why I don't like professional eSports. It destroys everything.

—  Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius  and a lot of courage  to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

@ChienAboyeur
Yeah, there's no easy solution. I guess if you want your measurement tool to give you good statistics you just need a lot of sample data. Trends will appear, they can be discussed internally and with experienced players. Good developers are always listening and discerning of what they hear too.
I'm sure there's not point mentioning a draw would be possible if an even number of battles were played, rather than the odd number of rounds standing in fighting games.

@Alrik Fassbauer

What a creative metaphor!

There are always going to be "elitists" in games. Always have been. Every time a new game comes out someone gets to max level in a day or so playing efficiantly and non-stop. That's how they enjoy the game. Everyone plays differently and at their own pace. Someone has to be first.

I don't see how enthusiasts "monopolize" anything? Is the server always full and you can't get in? Do you want a sort of "casual gamers only!" server? I think most mmorpgs have PvP and non-pvp servers, and sometimes Roleplaying ones too.

I think maybe the main problems here are
a) SWTOR is shit
b) MMORPG pvp being dominated by people with more time to farm gear.

and my response to this is
a) So I hear, but I never played it.
b) For sure.

Guildwars 2 is the best example I can think of for fair MMORPG PvP.
In GW2 when you enter the PvP hub you instantly change to max level and can access the best gear, without any price and switch them around as you like. You can even go in there at level 2 and build your fully decked out level 60, so you can start as, say, a warrior, then decide you want to be a ranger and get back into end game PvP in a few minutes! In the Realm VS Realm combat where whole servers fight against whole servers you still use your singleplayer items and skills, but you're scaled up to max level.

—  Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius  and a lot of courage  to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

—  Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius  and a lot of courage  to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

I think that I will quit playing MMOs at one point and go backl to offline single player games - if any are still produced then, that is …

The reason why I find myself drifting more and more away from SWTOR (curiously I never had this feeling in DDO ?) is a thing I call Eliticism.

It's bad.

Some people seemingly solely play SWTOR - and, most likely, other MMOs as well - to get something no-one else is able to get.

And I get literally sick from that.

A part in my is jealousy, I admit it - but the part that really makes me sick of it is the "bragging attitude". They just want to be someone exclusive.

I just don't understand this, because I haven't grown up with such an attitude here in Germanmy. It's totally alien to me. Meyne it is an younger generations thing ?

As a child I have spent a lot of time in my vacations with my grand parents. They had been growing up during WWII and the time after that. What they had told me was simple . Never throw things away you still can use, and, most importantly . Help each other !

After WWI it was a question of helping each other - or die. I think it was the same in most WWII-affected countries within Europe.

I had once had the thought that in the U.S. there never had been a post-WWII time, I mean REALLY with with fully destroyed towns consisting of nothing but rubble and stones ( ! ) and people making food of things no-one would eat today (like wheat made of acorns, for example, or salad made of oak tree leaves, if I remember correctly, and "coffee" made of several local plants).

This thought made me think of that would perhaps be the reason why in the U.S. there had always been such a distaste of communal helping each other, and instead rather focusing "the american dream", and, more importantly, the focus in an rather capitalistic way, too.

Nowadays studies and hard statiatical data reaches our newspapers stating that the amount of millionaires had increased in the last few years - and especially in Germany. The "social gap" is spreading further and further since 10 years ago the so-clled "americanization" of our economy began (paying low wages for being competitive, meanwhile increasing the wages of the bosses 10-25 % in the same time - possibly to be competitive as well ?).

I tend to think nowadays that this Eliticism thing in MMOs is another facet of the same thing : A trend towards being the elite of something in general.

Countries with a lesser Gini Index, I would expect to be lesser signs of Elitticism to be there - in-game and out-game.

The more inequality exists within a country, the more it would be visible in other areas as well. Like the wish to brag around with things no-one else has. Limited Edition Super Deluxe version of Mike Oldfield's album "Crisis", for example, which I'm hunting because I just love his music, but didn't have the money to get it. In me, this creates a feeling of "being locked out".

To lock people out of something might be a sign of this "Eliticism" as well.
It is a sign that the "I, The Ego" is king within a person, and that the thought of helping others is buried far, far away …

I'm not quite sure, yet, how entitlement fits into the scene. It clearly shows signs of an inflated Egho sometimes as well. Especially entitled people tend to say - I have often read remarks in this tone in the SWTOR forums - that they are special special special persons and that therefore they should getsomething no-one else is able to get - so to say as an reward to their entitlement. They pay (as subscribers), that's why they want something no F2P should be allowed to get. Eliticism signs again.
Or, another example, they buy things that were limited to the "Life Day" tiny event during the Christmas Time of 2013. One argued that he had payed millions of in-game currency to get this items from the year before (2012) - and demanded therefore that no-one should be able to get these Life Day limited stuff as well during last year's (2013) Life Day.

Entitled people appear for every major game, it seems. They more and more act as if the developers were at their mercy (see "developer harassment" for more on that) and that because they are potential buyers or have already bought the game they are allowed - through that sum of money ( ! ) they were allowed to do literally ANYTHING with the developpers. The novel "She" by horror novel writer Stephen King comes to mind.

Entitlement and Eliticism might even be the same face of the same coin : An inflated Ego. The "I" society. Or generation.

And that's probably why this behaviour is so alien to me. I grew up wih grandparents who taught me that there was once a gread NEED, and that it was important to SHARE things.

That Greed might be, for the lack of a better word, "good" is something that never came to my mind. I was grown up in a society that was proud, [i9very[/i] proud on their "Soziale Marktwirtschaft", their "social economy".
But this "Soziale Marktwirtschaft" has been - ans many analysts and commentators call it - "americanized" during the last ten years. Nowadays, gree id, for the lack of any better ord, "good" now as well. Maybe even better as just "good". It shows in the increase of the Gini Index.

So, if I will ever quit playing MMOs, then it is because of peoples' Egos.

"I !, I !, I !"! and "Me ! Me ! Me !"

"I want everything, and I want it nao."

And firms catering them, thus making them believe - and thus strengthening this kind of behaviour - that an demanding attitude and Eliticism in itself gets rewarded, as long and if you cry out loud enough.

—  Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius  and a lot of courage  to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

Every MMO community is a disaster. LOL has the worst community currently, raging in that game is over any imaginable extreme. But there is no MMO I've tried where I could say, hey, this community just rocks.

Dunno about SWTOR, but I suggest using an ignore option if it's available.
Especially put on the ignorelist those you call elitists. Usually it's kids who are just trying to cure their complexes by taking a rude or hostile attitude towards everyone.

I'm not sure that's the case though. I think people are people through out the ages, I'm sure general attitudes change, but the medium in which people express themselves has changed since the advent of the Internet. I think the Internet allows for more expansive communication, unfortunately it also allows for anonymous communication also. I think this tends to bring out the worst in people, allowing people to forget or ignore the fact that the people they are interacting with are just as human and have feelings as they themselves do.

Friends and the social aspect… this hasn't happened since the days of Everquest however, due to the craze with making new MMOs grandiose single player theme parks for introverts (and also because I'm scared to grow ties even approaching those that made my addiction to EQ so difficult to get over).

Secondly, I play MMOs to fine tune a character to the utmost degree possible with what's available in that given expansion. This is all the better when players have various options for theory-crafting and aren't spoon-fed 1 or 2 "go-to" builds by the developers.

I've never played an MMO simple for the sake of having something that's OMGZOR RARE! But I think I know the pre-pubescent types of whom you refer.

When I played EQ1, it was to play with the best. Period. Everything was contested, only the top raiders saw the best items, and that's how it should be, imo. Heck, we killed contested mobs not because we needed them but to prevent others from getting into what we considered our zone! To this day I still get /tells and emails about killing the Sleeper in EQ1, and that will most likely stay the highlight of my mmo experience.

In EQ2, I play more for friends and being with a more set group of people. The days of everything being contested are long gone…..any game that tried that now would not survive, I don't think, and in some ways that's a real shame. Then again, I don't miss those contested calls at 3 am, either. =p. Now, everyone gets their own raid instance, they can progress at their own speed/ability, and I guess that's just how the future will be. I will say though that, hands down, I had way more fun in the end with EQ1 back in the day.

Originally Posted by azarhal
From my experience those people are not kids. People are getting more and more greedy and selfish.

Drawing these conclusions from MMO…

The game design is at work. From early days to now, it shows the failure to bring other kinds of design than oriented to domination.
Players act according to the games demand.
When it is about aggression, a civil behaviour is optional and not driven by the context.
In these games, people are civil when you can stomp their faces, they associate mostly to stomp faces more easily.

@Alrik
If you want to continue playing MORPG (without "massive"), are ok with NWN2 and like to have deep roleplaying in a small decent community (~100 players in total, 25-40 simultaneously each evening) , take a look at Hochwaldallianz. I've played there for many years. Other servers like Amdir might be good as well, though I don't know them good enough to judge.

Originally Posted by Carnifex
Heck, we killed contested mobs not because we needed them but to prevent others from getting into what we considered our zone!

This is scratching at the border to what I call "Eliticism" : Not letting others experience what one believes is "his right to have and no-one else". It is like going into an supermarket, buying yourself some sausages - and throwing all other sausages into the dust bin so no-one else will be able to buy them.

This is on the border to what I call "griefing".

Basically there are quite a lot of people out there who do thjings just to prevent others from getting them. Instead of helping them getting them as well. And I regard this very selfish.

Originally Posted by Morrandir
@Alrik
If you want to continue playing MORPG (without "massive"), are ok with NWN2 and like to have deep roleplaying in a small decent community (~100 players in total, 25-40 simultaneously each evening) , take a look at Hochwaldallianz. I've played there for many years. Other servers like Amdir might be good as well, though I don't know them good enough to judge.

Thank you, I've never heard of them.

—  Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius  and a lot of courage  to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)

If SWTOR ever does down … out of business … I'll remember it with these words :

"SWTOR was riddled with a huge faction imbalance - through not only the players, but also by the developers as well."

SWTOR has - in general, it seems - an huge "imperial factzion" inbalance. The Leaderboards are full of imperial names, in the forums people almost exclusively use imperial skill names, even although everything's mirror classes, people write about imperial this and that - but never republic.

This is going on my nerves.

One of the best and most serious discussions in recent times (of which there are only few, and the most intelligent ones rather in the classes, lore, or spoiler sub-forums) in the SWTOR forums also discusses this matter : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=728590

I think it is a good read, because it deals with the question "why do people play evil characters ?" And as a result, why the imperial faction inbalance exists in the first place.

It is also a good read about human psychology.

I participated in that discussion, by the way.

—  Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius  and a lot of courage  to move in the opposite direction. (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)