Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

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Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

Discovery did that, except for the vehicle moving part. They had two bodies made and filled with tissue like gel, even put in plaster bones, and made the shot.

I wasn't thinking about making the shots... They could take their time and just make one shot count. I was just curious about whether the body moves forward or backwards when hit from behind at that angle...

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

Right. They went into more depth with it. They were using those high frame per second cameras. (They did multiple shooting tests) They were firing into ballistics gel and showing the gel practically jump backwards. They even talked about the phsyics behind it.

They also did a shooting test where they fired a round into a solid block of wood, then extracted it and showed that even firing into something much more solid than the human body can, and does, leave some bullets in pretty pristine condition.

They really tried to attack the whole thing from a skeptic's POV, instead of just regurgitating all the normal points and telling people to take their word on it.

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

They used the exact same model as the rifle found and they also used the exact same batch of ammunition from 1963.

You're as much of an expert on TV than you are every other topic.

No!!! It was the same rifle but not in the condition that LHO's weapon was in. No shooter has ever been able to make the shots with that weapon. The rifles they used in the simulation were reconditioned. The bolt action was much improved over a run of the mill Carcano..... Yes, they used the same ammunition. It is very difficult to even fire the shots without aiming in the time frame allotted with LHO's rifle. I have been studying the assassination for almost 50 years. I have read almost 50 books on the subject and I have visited the museum in the TSBD and studied their collection of pictures and videotape. I have been all over the assassination scene. I am not a troll and the moderators should, in my opinion, suspend anyone immediately that makes that accusation. I have not posted one thing in this threat that is not accurate and true...... ...

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

Nobody is saying that Oswald was not pretty lucky to have gotten off the shots he did, given his skill level and the equipment. But the numerous recreations show it to be physically plausible.

He didn't have to do it three-times-out-of-four or nine-times-out-of-ten. Just once. Like making a half court buzzer beater, just once.

He was an angry loser who wanted to be famous for something, who hated the president over Cuban policy, and who lucked into the perfect opportunity. When he got the job at the TBSD a few weeks before the assassination, the motorcade route had not been published and it wasn't even clear that the rumors of a JFK visit to Dallas were going to come to fruition.

He won the loser lottery. Kinda sucks from a drama perspective, but that's by far the simplest explanation.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

Nobody is saying that Oswald was not pretty lucky to have gotten off the shots he did, given his skill level and the equipment. But the numerous recreations show it to be physically plausible.

He didn't have to do it three-times-out-of-four or nine-times-out-of-ten. Just once. Like making a half court buzzer beater, just once.

He was an angry loser who wanted to be famous for something, who hated the president over Cuban policy, and who lucked into the perfect opportunity. When he got the job at the TBSD a few weeks before the assassination, the motorcade route had not been published and it wasn't even clear that the rumors of a JFK visit to Dallas were going to come to fruition.

He won the loser lottery. Kinda sucks from a drama perspective, but that's by far the simplest explanation.

LHO was most likely on the CIA payroll and the motorcade may have been moved to take advantate of his being in the TSBD or at least his rifle was there. The recreations show no such thing. Please read carefully, those Carcanos were the same as LHO's weapon but nothing like it because they had been refurbished and the bolt was made to work easier and jam ess often. No one has ever used LHO's actual weapon and duplicated the shooting. In fact, when it was tried, the scope had to be realigned and shims had to be put under it to make it hit any target at all. The iron sights were no zeroed in for the distance that LHO was presumed to be shooting from and the weapon shot high and right of a target at that range. In fact, in FBI tests of that riflle, no one could even work the bolt as fast as LHO would have had to do it even if they just worked it without trying to hit anything. All of what you are saying is just more of the cover-up. Dan Rather has been the biggst liar of all. He told everyone he had seen the Z film and LHO pitched forward violently when hit. He actually lurched back and to his left...... That didn't happen from a shot behind him and to his right...... It was from the shot on the Grassy Knoll that the acoustic evidence proved was the fatal shot.....

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

LHO was most likely on the CIA payroll and the motorcade may have been moved to take advantate of his being in the TSBD or at least his rifle was there. The recreations show no such thing. Please read carefully, those Carcanos were the same as LHO's weapon but nothing like it because they had been refurbished and the bolt was made to work easier and jam ess often. No one has ever used LHO's actual weapon and duplicated the shooting. In fact, when it was tried, the scope had to be realigned and shims had to be put under it to make it hit any target at all. The iron sights were no zeroed in for the distance that LHO was presumed to be shooting from and the weapon shot high and right of a target at that range. In fact, in FBI tests of that riflle, no one could even work the bolt as fast as LHO would have had to do it even if they just worked it without trying to hit anything. All of what you are saying is just more of the cover-up. Dan Rather has been the biggst liar of all. He told everyone he had seen the Z film and LHO pitched forward violently when hit. He actually lurched back and to his left...... That didn't happen from a shot behind him and to his right...... It was from the shot on the Grassy Knoll that the acoustic evidence proved was the fatal shot.....

I was reading the other day that acoustic evidence also indicated a shot fired under an overpass from a man hole area for utilities. I have no idea where it is in ref. to where the shooting occured.

Let me ask though about the gun LHO used. Is it possible that the scope and sight might have been off if he either dropped or threw it after it was shot? I have no idea btw, I'm just curious.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

Nobody is saying that Oswald was not pretty lucky to have gotten off the shots he did, given his skill level and the equipment. But the numerous recreations show it to be physically plausible.

He didn't have to do it three-times-out-of-four or nine-times-out-of-ten. Just once. Like making a half court buzzer beater, just once.

He was an angry loser who wanted to be famous for something, who hated the president over Cuban policy, and who lucked into the perfect opportunity. When he got the job at the TBSD a few weeks before the assassination, the motorcade route had not been published and it wasn't even clear that the rumors of a JFK visit to Dallas were going to come to fruition.

He won the loser lottery. Kinda sucks from a drama perspective, but that's by far the simplest explanation.

I'm inclined to agree with you but I do stay open-minded due to so many unanswered questions, coincidences, and the rush to declare LHO guilty and close the books while obviously leaving a lot of 'hanging chads'.

So that said, playing devil's advocate, if LHO was an angry loser that wanted to be famous for something and hated the president, and got lucky in the loser lottery.... then why didn't he proudly own up to it? Why the famous claim (from his own mouth) that he was "a patsy"? Why not tell the world what he did and why he did it and explain the 'favor' he must've felt he did for either God, country, or the world?

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

I was reading the other day that acoustic evidence also indicated a shot fired under an overpass from a man hole area for utilities. I have no idea where it is in ref. to where the shooting occured.

Let me ask though about the gun LHO used. Is it possible that the scope and sight might have been off if he either dropped or threw it after it was shot? I have no idea btw, I'm just curious.

The accoustic evidence showed three shots from the TSBD and one, the last one, from the Grassy Knoll.

The iron sights were correctely zeroed in for a target at 250 yards. That is the way it was set up when it was built. That is also why using them made a shot go high and to the right. That is probably why LHO missed a shot at a general who was sitting at about 50 feet. Most experts think the scope was never attached correctly and was always that far off. But, who knows what was possible. There was no chain of evidence so everything was handled and mishandled. The picture showing the spent shells standing up right was a joke, the first member of the DPD who came in there picked them up and moved them around. ...

The House Select Committee on Assassination has already determined that there was more than one shooter and there was conspiracy to kill JFK.....

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

The "patsy" remark needs to be taken in context. LHO said it as he was complaining about being put into a police lineup for identification by one of the witnesses to the murder of Officer Tippit. He was claiming it was unfair that he was not being allowed to change his clothes and was in a lineup with neatly dressed men, while he was disshelved, with a bruise on his head from the arrest. So he was complaining about the police making him a patsy, making him stand out from the other guys in the lineup, so that the witness would identify him as Tippit's murderer. He made similar complaints when he was used in other lineups for other witnesses to Tippit's murder. The "patsy" remark was thus not even part of the interrogation related to the JFK assassination, but specifically to Officer Tippit's murder. see 7:50 PM:

There are many clear lies in LHO's statements, such as having never owned a rifle, never mail-ordered a gun (those records were found), claiming that he was arrested for having lived in Russia (Dallas police didn't even know his name until AFTER he was arrested for Tippit's murder), and other things. He was trying to save his hide from the electric chair.

The murder of Officer Tippit is one of the major parts of the story that is hard to work into a logical conspiracy theory, since it happened on a busy street and was witnessed by at least a dozen people. It is crystal clear that Oswald did it, and Tippit was not "in on it" as he had no shady past like Ruby and many others in the story.

Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 02-09-2013 at 08:54 AM.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

I thought some of you might find this exchange from the JFK news group interesting: ...
> Walt, now you're talking. I don't know which is more incredible: getting 2
> out of 3 rigth on a Russian test without undergoing instrution, or getting
> 2 out of 3 shots under the conditions under which they were SUPPOSEDLY
> made.
>

> By the way OIC senior member Craig Roberts was a military sniper and
> Police SWAT officer, and he said that he couldn't have accomplished the
> shooting attributed to Oswald. Really, this whole thing is getting
> ridiculous.
>
>

It goes further. Roberts mentioned that he spoke with Carlos Hathcock
of sniper fame, and they both had tried to duplicate the feat and failed.
Roberts also said after looking around he would have chosen the Grassy
Knoll as his 'hide'.

On top of those facts, the condition of the MC rifle was terrible. The
FBI testers got the rifle soon after the murder and they found they
couldn't use the scope and had to put the rifle into their gunsmith for
shimming so that the scope could be used properly. As well, the bolt
action of the rifle was extremely stiff and had to be worked for minutes
before shooting, and it was so stiff that it would throw off the aim. It
became better after they had worked with it for a while, but the condition
that Oswald of another shooter in the TSBD would not have made the shots
in the same length of time as suggested by the authorities that say.

I would suggest that Oswald was the buyer of the MC rifle, but never
bothered to use it. He was notorious for having a dirty rifle in the
marines and being a bad shot, based on statements by Nelson Delgado,
Oswald's buddy.

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

Dr. Luis Alvarez's explanation of why Kennedy's head moved towards origin of the shot instead of away from it.

Alvarez proved it was counterintuitive physics. Roughly: the movement imparted by the goop pouring out the exit wound created a sort of jet stream that was stronger than that of the tiny hole made by the entrance wound. So the head moved back towards the shooter. Alvarez tested his theory by taking a melon, to represent brain, and wrapping it in fiberglass tape, to represent skull. He shot his melon and, as he predicted, it rocketed right back towards the source of the gunfire.

We wanted to reproduce this experiment ourselves, full action, highspeed camera. So I went with the crew to a gun shop with a firing range. The place was packed with people. More employees than Wal-Mart at xmas and several customers for every salesperson. And this was a Monday afternoon. On weekends there's a line out the door.

I met my instructor, Tony, a silver-haired, tan, 20 year veteran of the police force (where he taught firearms skills). Since retiring from the police, Tony has been teaching marksmanship and gun safety to hobbyists for fifteen years.

He's disgusted and incredulous at the sheer ignorance of anybody who doubts Oswald could have killed Kennedy.

"It was easy shot. Stevie Wonder could have made it," he said and reeled off the exact distances of Oswald's three shots. "I took my gun club out on the desert. We used the exact same make and model of rifle. We set up all the same distances and elevations. Nineteen of the guys hit all three shots, and the other four guys couldn't hit a bull in the *** with a coal shovel. And don't forget, Oswald only hit two out of three."

While the crew set up, Tony took me into another range for some practice. The Mannlicher Carcano rifle was a duplicate of Oswald's, except that it didn't have a telescopic sight; I was holding in my hands, not on a stand, which makes aiming harder. I shot the target smack through the heart three times. "Okay, that's enough practice," said Tony.

I went into the gun safety classroom to don wardrobe and makeup. The classroom walls were covered with diagrams showing how bullets fire and how to ensure safe handling, and with credentials, certificates of appreciation, and awards from police organizations.

Dressed, I was ready to shoot, in both senses. The crew and I set up two melons on stands. The one representing JFK was wrapped in fiberglass tape; the one representing Jackie was wearing a pink pillbox hat. We photographed me loading the gun, then took an "art" shot of me shooting from the point of view of the melon (using blanks, of course). Finally it was time really to shoot the melon.

"This gun shoots a little high, so aim the sights about an inch below where you want it," said Tony. I aimed and squeezed the trigger. A perfect hit. As Alvarez said it would, the melon goop "brain" blew out the front and shot the melon backwards. As an added bonus, the goop knocked off Jackie Melon Kennedy's pillbox hat. I shot again, hit a little off center, but even then, the melon came towards me and the pillbox blew off. I shot one final time. Dead center, melon back at me, the most perfect shot of all. Our director/producer Star Price asked if I wanted to shoot some more. I asked him if he had the shot he needed. He did. So I thanked everybody and left.

It's hard to digest the idea that a pallid loser, Lee Harvey Oswald could annihilate radiant John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the most powerful and glamorous man on the earth. But after talking to Tony and blasting the brains out of a tape-wrapped melon, I'm triply convinced that the Kennedy assassination can be best described like this:

Oswald and Kennedy were men of flesh and blood. One of them pointed a gun at the other and shot.

The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

I have talked to several experience snipers. One of them had over 100 kills in Afganistan. Not one of them had ever shot a man in the head and then had them move violently in the direction of the shop. Some went straight down and others went violently away from the shooter. Many years ago there is a film of a man being executed point blank with a pistol to the side of his head. He did not leap back at the shooter, he went the other way. Perhaps in movies where you see firing squads reinacted those posts the victims are tied to are there to keep them from leaping onto the firing squad when hit??

Re: Do you believe that the assassination of President Kennedy was a conspiracy or lone gunman...

All information below is from Warren Commission testimony of Robert Frazier and
Ronald Simmons, both from the FBI. ...
First the WC questioned Robert Frazier and here's what they got in
part:
"Mr. Frazier. The stock is worn, scratched. The bolt is relatively
smooth, as if it had been operated several times. I cannot actually
say how much use the weapon has had. The barrel is--was not, when we
first got it, in excellent condition. It was, I would say, in fair
condition. In other words, it showed the effects of wear and
corrosion."
Frazier goes on:
"Mr. Mccloy. Was it what you would call pitted, were the lands in good
shape?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; the lands and the grooves were worn, the corners
were worn, and the interior of the surface was roughened from
corrosion or wear.
Mr. Mccloy. Was there metal fouling in the barrel?
Mr. Frazier. I did not examine it for that.
Mr. Mccloy. Could you say roughly how many rounds you think had been
fired since it left the factory, with the condition of the barrel as
you found it?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I could not, because the number of rounds is not
an indication of the condition of the barrel, since if a barrel is
allowed to rust, one round will remove that rust and wear the barrel
to the same extent as 10 or 15 or 50 rounds just fired through a clean
barrel."

So now we have a barrel with 'wear and corrosion'. Lands and
grooves were worn. It's not in good shape so far. Frazier avoids
saying that firing a bullet through it cleaned it out some. Now we
move on to Simmons testifying:

Mr. Eisenberg. Was it reported to you by the persons who ran the
machine-rest tests whether they had any difficulties with sighting the
weapon?
Mr. Simmons. Well, they could not sight the weapon in using the
telescope, and no attempt was made to sight it in using the iron
sight. We did adjust the telescopic sight by the addition of two
shims, one which tended to adjust the azimuth, and one which adjusted
an elevation. The azimuth correction could have been made without the
addition of the shim, but it would have meant that we would have used
all of the adjustment possible, and the shim was a more..."

Hmm. The scope was not functional and they had to have a gunsmith
fix it by using shims. (that comes later). This says that the rifle
couldn't be aimed properly using the scope, meaning that if there was
a shooter in the TSBD, he couldn't have used that weapon to aim at
JFK. Of course, there is the possibility that he used the iron
sights, but I tend to think that wasn't the case in the midst of
shooting at the president, we have to face it...the rifle couldn't be
aimed as per the FBI testers. But there's more from Simmons:

"Mr. Eisenberg. Mr. Simmons, I find there are three shims here. You
mentioned two. Would three be consistent with what you were told?Mr.
Simmons. I was told two. These were put in by a gunsmith in one of our
machine shops-- rather a machinist in one of our machine shops."

Oops! Simmons lets the cat out of the bag. The rifle went to a
gunsmith first before shooting to fix the scope. He tried to change
it from gunsmith to machinist, but it was too late. A gunsmith had a
hold of the rifle before testing and made some adjustments. More on
this later.
---
"Mr. Eisenberg. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly
skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to shoot in the
range of 1.2-mil aiming error?
Mr. Simmons. Obviously considerable experience would have to be in
one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I think also
considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of
effort required to work the bolt.
Mr. Eisenberg. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy?
Mr. Simmons. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt
was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target, whereas
with greater proficiency this might not have occurred."
Oops again. Simmons has said that "considerable experience with
this weapon" would be required to shoot the rifle for the purpose
intended. But he also let out that it took an 'amount of effort' to
work the bolt. He pointed out that the difficult bolt was making the
aiming difficult too. Now bolts in wartime have to work easily or
there will dead soldiers. Frazier earlier said the bolt worked
smoothly, but he must have been talking about after the testers worked
the bolt so much. What condition was this thing in when the testers
got it? Let's see what else Simmons will inadvertently let out:
---
Mr. EISENBERG. How much practice had they had with the weapon, Exhibit
139, before they began firing?
Mr. SIMMONS. They had each attempted the exercise without the use of
ammunition, and had worked the bolt as they tried the exercise. They
had not pulled the trigger during the exercise, however, because we
were a little concerned about breaking the firing pin."

While not firing it while unloaded, they were still having trouble
just working the bolt. Simmons let it out that working the bolt was
hard enough to mess up their aim, meaning the target would have to be
reacquired. A shooter that had the rifle before the testers would
surely have trouble working the bolt, and losing sight of the target
(if the scope had been working). Let's go on:
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us an estimate of how much time they
used in this dry-run practice, each?
Mr. SIMMONS. They used no more than 2 or 3 minutes each.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did they make any comments concerning the weapon?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; there were several comments made particularly with
respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt. As a matter
of fact, Mr. Staley had difficulty in opening the bolt in his first
firing exercise. He thought it was completely up and it was not, and
he had to retrace his steps as he attempted to open the bolt after the
first round.
There was also a comment made about the trigger pull which is
different as far as these firers are concerned. It is in effect a two-
stage operation where the first--in the first stage the trigger is
relatively free, and it suddenly required a greater pull to actually
fire the weapon."
This rifle is turning out to be a dog! They each worked the bolt
for 2-3 minutes practicing. But they were afraid it would break the
firing pin, so they didn't work the trigger. It must have gone to the
gunsmith first, as noted above. Either way, the testers each had 2-3
minutes to work the bolt, so that would help to free it up after the
gunsmith.
All in all, the 'wear and corrosion' that Frazier mentioned seems
to have been much worse than he let on, but Simmons helped us there by
letting so many cats out of the bag. The rifle was not in good
condition so they tried to work the bolt to free it up. If it wasn't
free when they got it, presumably right after the shooter in the TSBD,
then that shooter didn't hit the broad side of a barn from inside it.
The gunsmith had to fix the scope so they could aim it, and after that
they worked it 2-3 minutes each to free it up and to familiarize with
it. Something that Oswald never did as far as we know. His
experience was with semi-automatic rifles, not bolt action.
Either way, the Mannlicher-Carcano wasn't in any condition to be
fired by anyone that day, nor the next at the FBI testers. The list
of problems were: a) the scope was found on the rifle yet the scope
needed work by a gunsmith before the testers could fire it
successfully b) the bolt was so stiff (probably from lack of use for
years) that they had to work it for minutes each for the testers to
test fire it c) the trigger was 2-stage, which they found an extra
difficulty in working with the weapon.

This militates against the MC rifle ever being used before the FBI
got it. It's as if the second hand WW2 rifle was still in the
cosmoline from the war, having been put to rest by the Italian army
and left for years until a buyer came along, probably Oswald.