ROME: Sacra Liturgia Conference – Day 4

The days begins. We are about to have a talk by Msgr. Newton of the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, for former Anglicans. He is reading a paper for Msgr. Andrew Burnham.

Newton is explaining that, while they are formally part of the Roman Rite, they preserve Anglican liturgical patrimony. He says that many of those who belong to the UK Ordinariate have tended to be liturgically faithful (even high) and close to the Roman Rite. We are told that there is work being done in Rome right now on various rites for the Ordinariate by an interdicasterial group Anglicanae traditiones. He used the image of a fragment of a vase being glued back into the larger original source.

Just heard a new version of a term: Anglo-papalist. “Papalist”… great word.

The paper quotes László Dobszay about the Catholic liturgical law allowing substitution of “another apt song” as being like “anthrax in the envelope”. I think we all know that results have varied. On the other hand, in the Anglican tradition, since the 19th c. Tractarians and others tried to bring some medieval hymns and Catholic ideas back into Anglican worship. So, in the Anglican tradition hymn singing “added value”. That hasn’t recently been in the case in some Catholic worship.

Learned a new term “Prayerbook Catholic”.

Second Vatican Council affected Anglican worship as well.

Newton (Burnham) talks about what from the Anglican tradition could enrich the Roman Missal. There is also some interest in the Sarum Use (suppressed in the 16th c.). Antiquarian? It didn’t seem to match the needs of Anglicans in UK or in N America and Australia (for whom it was too foreign.

What I wonder what from the Roman Tradition might enrich the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite?

25 Responses to ROME: Sacra Liturgia Conference – Day 4

Dear Fr Z, I don’t believe that the Sarum rite was ever suppressed. The Recusants had developed an ultra-montanist stance and voluntarily chose the Sarum rite. I believe that when the English hierarchy was being reestablished Rome is supposed to have asked them if they would like to use the Sarum Rite but they chose the Tridentine.

Something that we could happily take from the c19 Tractarians is the wealth of English versions of the Office Hymns, many in translations by JM Neale. They can be found in The English Hymnal and its derivatives.
Surely recusancy pre-dates ultra-montanism – the followers of latter would not have chosen the Sarum Rite.

As a Catholic in the U.S. Ordinariate, I followed your comments this morning on Msgr. Burnham’s paper with especially keen interest. I look forward to reading the paper when it becomes available.

There is indeed interest in Sarum out here. But contra Jeff, I think the question with Sarum is not so much whether it was suppressed (it seems fairly clear that it wasn’t), but whether it has lapsed from desuetude. I think that was the reasoning as to why Fr. Finnegan was urged to cease celebrations of Sarum back in the late 90’s. But much has changed at Ecclesia Dei and CDW since those days…

The effects of this conference may be very limited if the news CNA is reporting is correct. According to them, Cardinal Llovera is likely to become the Archbishop of Madrid, Spain. With his spot at the Congregation for Diving Worship open, Pope Francis is likely to appoint Piero Marini as new head of CDW. He was Papal Master of Ceremonies under JPII and was Annibale Bugnini’s personal secretary in the 1970’s.

If this move happens, it tells us much about Francis’ style. He’s already talked about an emancipated formation and a Mass without superstructures. If he brings in Marini rather than someone who is already a Cardinal like Ranjith or Burke, then I think it’s clear Francis is a man of the 1970’s when it comes to the Liturgy. I think we essentially knew that, but a move like this would go a long way towards confirming it.

Absolutely, Sid. I was shocked as an Ex-Anglican to see him do that. “Shock and Awe” indeed. To me it felt that Benedict not only understood us, but also that he understood me personally. After so many years of being told that I was ‘backwards’ and ‘out of step’ that’s what convinced me that I was truly ‘home’.

Sadly, the article states clearly CDW likely to be headed by Piero Marini, the former personal secretary of Annibale Bugnini.

Maybe Father Zuhlsdorf can assuage our fears and concerns, but Marini earned criticism as JPII’s master of Papal Ceremonies for his “unique” style. I think the reform of the reform, such as it was, would be shelved.

If the rumors are true and Piero Marini does head the CDW, here’s a piece on him written by John Allen. In it, Marini came out in favor of same sex civil unions. Given this information, I hope the rumors are not correct.

I knew it wasn’t Guido, but I was hoping (and joking). It is all speculation right now. +Piero’ Marini’s appointment would, it seems to me, appear to be a direct repudiation of a major thrust of Pope Benedict’s Papacy. I think it would not be tacky to do this. Perhaps a more neutral person who symbolized less ideological onesidedness could be chosen. I don’t expect Burke or Ranjith. But perhaps a middle ground? Pray people. If +PM were appointed, I would really struggle with the sin of despair.

When will people stop jumping for joy and moaning in despair over rumors?

Seriously, folks, learn some moderation. I love you, but some people in the Catholic Internet community never learn. If every rumor and whisper we’ve heard from the Vatican had turned out to be true, we’d have had eighty popes since 1979, and everybody would be going to the Assyrian Rite in Aramaic while dancing buck naked.

Steven I too will really Struggle with the sin of depair…..if P.Marini is appointed…

You know, right, that the sin of despair refers to despair of God’s mercy? I think whatever’s going through your mind right now surely can’t be that. Let’s hope it’s just unwarranted pessimism. By the way, your expression “fabricating the N.O.” is very apt!

Guys and gals, I think this rumor first emerged in Riposte catholique—not quite two months ago. Surely, if it really had legs we would have heard a lot more before now in the Anglophone press. You know how the Latin media love their rumors, not, of course, that they love them so much that they’d actually fabricate (thanks, HighMass) any.

More seriously, all that’s been going on lately in the Church and in the country has made me feel an unholy anger against not a few perps (two especially) and I’ve thought, “Oh, if only I had thirty seconds with that person, preferably in front of a large audience of his (or her) admirers…” Carissime beate Hieronyme, defendito me a memet ipso!

ANIMADVERSOR….you are correct about the depair of God’s Mercy, Dear Lord Please Forgive…..

Do be honest and not go on and on……re: bugnini…..and his fabrication of the N.O. I recall the first Masses said in ( Latin/English(1964/1965) in fact I still have the yellow response cards we were given to make it “easier to follow/respond….

If one can speculate whatB. John XXIII had in mind re: Liturgy, (after what I have read be it right or wrong) one can say it was B JOHN XXIII’S intention to make some adjustments to the Mass of 1962, i.e. readings and Gospel in the vernacular….the parts that were sung Kyrie, Gloria, etc. remained in Latin…..who knows???? Also read C. Ottaviani’s letter to Paul VI Sept. 1969…..it mentions many abuses that would happen if the N.O. was implimented…..sorry I got off the subject ….P. Marini and Clan just make me want to speak out more and more…..

You are all correct of course. The sin of despair is to not trust in the greatness of God’s mercy. I used the term inaccurately. I am also guilty of giving in to the internet rumor mill.

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