well, i agree there. Sun is already licensed to use Jive, and you should have no problem using it here.while this board is better than the other one for inserting code, Jive would be better for this and other things.But, imho, the forum discussion is of no use. we already changed, while there seemed to be more people for Jive than for other BBS, we got this. IMHO, we have more important things than creating an other sterile debate on forums.

1. I would have no problems porting this to java / jsp. I would be eager to do it.

1a. Could someone please list the issues you have with Jive or I would be pleased to find some reasonable specs to program to. or when you get some specs could you please email it to stephenjava @ yahoo.com I'm pretty sure some other guys would like to get in on this as well.

2. I strongly believe it does damage to the java initiative for a Sun sponsored site to run something other than a java based bulletin board. For me this issue is very clear and it's never too late to change the board.

1) This is site was created to promote and support the use of Java in professional games, not web development in general. (Chris can clarify the mission statement over my blurb)

2) Sun can indepedantly promote any technology they want in regards to web developement AND games, and they have.

3) Sun is NOT Java. I think you mean that this forum software is a disgrace to Java not Sun.

An independant Java gaming group/site might really want to use Java only technologies whereever possible (i.e. the forums) if there goals were to promote Java in general as well. This site is SEMI-independant

Can you really give a "Strong(tm)" arguement for this forum to be in Java? I tried because I would like to see it too... (maybe if the site hosted some Java games so that having the lastest Java installed would be required in your browser...)

well, if i were a dumb ass person that had to get an eye on the possibility to create games using Java apis, and saw that the bbs was using perl, i think i would think ()"well, if they don't use their technology for 'simple' web stuff, why would i use it for my high tech needs? Go back playing with your applets, kids..."<rant>Something you have to understand is that the more you give elements for people to beat you, the more they will use them. We have strong tools and technologies. Let's show them, or we'll perish because of ignorance of those that won't look more than the surface ( and these are the most guys we'll ever have to count on to be successful ) Microsoft understood that. They do tons of little things for their tools, lots of those that are not so useful but please their users and are immediatly attractive, and they take care to carefully hide their problems. Not that we need to do the same, but we need to SHOW things, instead of saying that they are there. Few people will take time to look by themselves. If you don't understand that, you are dead.This is the problem with Java, that does not have a eye candy showcase. Most will not see what's the difference between C, .net and Java, or even VB. We have demos coded by coders, and they seem to be for coders. JAWS has ridiculous demos that play against itself, while it should have beautiful games and applications. If we want to be succesfful in promoting java for gaming or apps or web, we need to target USERS and not CODERS. Coders don't buy, users do. Biggest problem of Java is that it does not have what microsoft has: a central entity that handles marketing, demos and coders. Once we get games, we'll get gamers and companies will follow. Until a first step of high quality is done, we'll still be waiting...Jeff, sorry for being a bit aggressive, but i see the lack of f1racing and FPS demos as this first step. You have the solution to make things go forward. Don't take time to change the forums and the board. takes thoses demos out, and let the name spread !!! This is more important than anything else. And if you have problems, talk about them, we're here to help, and there will certainly be people, me included, that will be more than happy to do anything for you.</rant>

1) This is site was created to promote and support the use of Java in professional games, not web development in general. (Chris can clarify the mission statement over my blurb)

My answer: Why would I risk studying java for games when you won't even run the forum and web site on java technology. If java is too cumbersome or unreliable (which is the message you unknowingly send) to use for a web site then why would I want - take the path less traveled and hope to make the next generation of games with java.

A talk with any marketing expert will reveal exactly the same thing.

The reason for confusion is because there are a bunch of technologist making the decision and not marketing professionals.

Running this forum and website on anything other than java sends the wrong message. And puts the effort even further behind. Microsoft would never dare sell C# or .NET without running their web site on the same product. That's because they have marketing consultation.

And if you don't provide downloadable high quality games people will inevitably think you are lying about the potential to use java for games.

I know shawn mentioned something about making his games available. i see it no where. not good at all --- As a result of all these messages, programming games in java requires a whole lot more faith than religion . (which i actually do believe in the 2nd coming and all that ) But you guys make it clear i should not believe in java.

I would like to encourage you guys to do the right thing and when that is done I hope you can remove this embarrassing thread.

And if you don't provide downloadable high quality games people will inevitably think you are lying about the potential to use java for games.

This is what f1game and fps are actually doing, imho. An avi is not a proof, and talks about demos on a booth are no more proof. Sorry, but in this world of vapourware and lying marketers, all we have to do to protect us agains intox is to contest what we don't have in our hands. That's what i do.

You don't need a million dollar research to figure this one out. there needs to be a consistent message.

and please stop palming off these videos as well.Perhaps you can palm it off for 1 year but 2 ? now people are going to start getting very angry.

If phony balony java game videos are continually palmed off going into the year ( 2003 ) I'm 100% sure the masses will start to call the javagaming community on it.

If you used JNI just fess up NOW that they were. Perhaps you can specify the model for using JNI and provide a little engine for it. We wouldn't mind. I would gladly forgive if I finally had a realistic model in my hand to work with. so just fess up if that's the reason why. It would be the source of a few jokes for about a month but then everyone would focus on the productivity games.

But with me personally, I'm not going to be very very annoyed to see any movies. For me it will be a palm off and an insult.

lets try to send a consistent message with this web site. We're promoting java period

Whereas I'm not so happy that the site isn't actually running on Java (which I know gives a bad impression from Java's main sponsors) I'm just rather relieved that the torture of the old forums is gone.

As for all the vapourware, hm, yes, it's getting long in the tooth and decidedly suspicious (licensing issues my arse, there's something fishy going on), but it's also getting off topic

I am about 10 months into studying Java and I've reached the point of trying to answer the "I try to run Java HelloWorldApp and it says it can't find 'main'" kind of questions, which I get on the email address listed on my website since I have a decently cool applet there.

I have written up a basic resources list with links that include this site for people like me who are trying to get started. I honestly don't know why it appears to spontaneously happen so much from people who I don't think have been exposed to the java performance/real world debates, but I almost always get next questions about whether after 10 months I think Java can compete because 'everyone' says it is too slow. This is evidence that the collective unconcious really exits -- the perception of Java's ineffectuality is speeping throught the internet, and it could be that the small things like this forum's underlying technology reinforce that.

I am really thrilled that the forum is up, and I don't really care that much whether it is implemented in perl or Java, but I do understand with the points being made in this thread about the possible consequences, as they are confirmed in my personal experience. I am hoping to reduce and eventually eliminate my dependence on expensive MS software (at least until I am not so poor ) and Sun is my only hope for stabilizing the opensource platform-independent movement (I've switched to Openoffice and Eclipse and I hope I don't have to revert).

The question is -- is Sun paying anyone to deal with this? The answer seems uncertain based on what I've been reading. The next question would be, if they aren't, would they allow a small group of community members to gain some administrative control over this site? That may be the most efficient way that it can become more effective as a tool for education about Java's potential. That seems to be the only way to deal with these problems, as I get the impression that both Jeff and Chris are maxed out with their current obligations... and as we have seen so many times already on the web, a group of qualified volunteers (with some oversight from the paid Sun staffers, perhaps) can do a lot to make things happen.

edited for understandability (and still not quite there in some places)

Personally, I don't really care much about this board not being java. It really doesn't make me run to M$ or .NET...(Doesn't everybody know microsoft.com doesn't run on M$ for the most part as well??).OTOH, I never had a problem withold the forum software in the first place but I got a bit concerned when the rest of the site got removed, with the 'neglected' statement on the front page just sitting there for months and all... Now, months later, the site is still in the same state (forum only) with the only difference that it looks a bit better.I still have hopes though that this site may go in the right direction again...

What I am also concerned about is that F1-racer demo which more and more seems like vapourware ('a little issue with the installer' ... ) and that almost every 'fast high quality java3d game' that people talk about only exists in the form of a very hard to find low quality mpg or screenshots that got removed from java-gaming.org.Not very convincing to the public to say the least.Even if all that great stuff will see the public that needs to see it, it may already becoming to show age.

I've taken the example of some posters from this site and started to send people to the Cosm website as an example of the Java potential. If they get a demo up there eventually, that may be the best thing.Arachnae could work, but there isn't a very user-friendly way of getting that running (the Web Start isn't working for me, and installing GL4Java can be a bear).

First off - I appreciate the fact that these forums exist and the community surrounding it provides an astoundingly high signal to noise ratio. To me the actual software is next to irrelevant as long as it serves it's purpose. (This is java-gaming.org, not javaforums.org)

As for the use of PHP, I can understand. The most competitive players in web forum software market are still PHP based. Jive is pretty good, especially for largescale communities, but their pricing structure is aimed at the highend. The price/performance ratio of the various forums still points at the PHP apps.. some of the open source ones are quite good now too.

It's about the the best tool for the job.

(an aside in response to MS using it's own tools- MS still uses BSD servers for Hotmail)

As for the use of PHP, I can understand. The most competitive players in web forum software market are still PHP based. Jive is pretty good, especially for largescale communities, but their pricing structure is aimed at the highend. The price/performance ratio of the various forums still points at the PHP apps.. some of the open source ones are quite good now too.

It's about the the best tool for the job.

The fear I think is that the same kind of rational exists regarding Java game development. The most competitive players in the game development market are C and C++. Java is pretty good, but it lacks support and getting anything up and running is going to take more time because there is a smaller community behind it. :-/ Without good resources, Java isn't the best tool for the job for game dev. either.

I think several posters have indicated that Jive's pricing structure would not be a factor? This hasn't been confirmed though AFAIK.

I agree that this forum should better be implemented in java but i do understand that this basically limits the choice to JIVE (albeit it wasn't too expensive the last time i checked it out). If JIVE isn't an option for whatever reasons then the air is getting thin. Another problem with promoting java for forums and similar applications is, that no one has it. Try to find a provider that offers JSP/Servlet-support at a reasonable price. I haven't found any. Everyone and his mother supports PHP and CGI, some even offer ASP...but JSP?

Oh, and i agree on the demos. People have to see what is possible with java and these demos should be decently looking...not just tech demos made by coders for coders. The user is not interested in feature X and Y but it has to look good and play fine. The feedback i'm getting about my site (http://www.jpct.net) often includes phrases like "i never thought that this is possible in java"...and some of these people have used java in their daily work for years. That is a fundamental problem. These people would never consider to use java for anything else then server-side application development (and maybe some swing-applications) until you show them that it's possible.

ok, "me too".. I think it would be best if the forums were done with Java. But I also see web forums and Gamiong as so completely different that I do not think the "wrong" message is quite as strong a message as others seem to think it is.

This is free forum software that works - why not use it? We know that Jive works too, but it isn't free.. Hey the message I'm getting is that people are making money with Java but not PHP

The more important thing IMHO is examples of Java games including the Grand Prix demo, Cosm, etc.. These sort of technology demonstrations are what will convince people that Java will work for games, forum software written in Java goes nowhere in proving that point.

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