RE: the Bible and homosexuality. I'm a Pagan and don't believe the Bible's particularly special. However, one of my Christian pals has looked into the NT passages regarding homosexuality, particularly Romans 1, and found something very interesting. Homosexuality is being condemned there as a Pagan practice, because it was being done in the context of rituals to other Gods in Pagan temples. So to him, as long as you aren't practicing in the context of worshipping, say, Hera by enjoying your partner, the Bible doesn't condemn your action.

But I'm sure people could argue with this if they wanted to.

Mystique: "How would you like to come see some really awful black velvet paintings of bullfighters?"
Wolverine: "What, no etchings?"
Mystique: "Just bullfighters...that's all they have on my motel room wall."
--Wolverine #51, "The Crunch Conundrum"

"Scott, everybody knows J-P would slap us all silly and make us little French speaking clones of him if he could." -- Bobby Drake

Yes... I am okay physically since the accident, but I am quite angry about the other person's stupidity. People should look where they are going. Fortunately, my Buick is this 30 year old restoration project that weighs 4,000 pounds and the rear bumper is made of thick chrome plated steel. The Toyota really took it on the nose good. I was glad to see that my Buick can still fight back after all these years on the road! That will teach people to mess around with my car. The other person has got probably $1,000 + in damages, and I think mine is gonna be like $200??? Anyway...

That seems right that in X3 the scene where Bobby tells his parents that he is a mutant is symbolic of what people go through when they explain things to their parents. It might not just be about gay kids, though. It might also fit how kids feel when they say they don't want to really go to Law School, they want to be a musician or an artist. Or they may bring home a girlfriend who is black and the parents have bad feelings about that.

And, also... Yes, I definitely agree that we, as mortal human beings, should not condemn gay people. There are good gay people and bad gay people, just like there are good straight people and bad straight people. The person who mentions that "sodomy" in the Bible was really about rape may have been correct, since I read somewhere that the enemies of the ancient Hebrews used to attack the Hebrews and if they won the battle, the would round up all the men and molest them, so the Hebrew men, naturally, strongly resented that and outlawed it & etc. When you look at the Bible, it might be helpful to consider the historical context and society it was written in. Many things in the Bible are particular to the ancient society it comes from. For instance, they sacrificed animals in those days. Do we do that now? No! (Well... people who practice Santeria do... but that's not our discussion.)

*** In the books & in the movie Kurt does not get angry at God for making him the way he is. And in the movie he says he "pities people" because they only see what's on the outside instead of looking at the whole person. Do we think that maybe he doesn't blame God for making him a mutant, but instead sees this whole "appearance thing" as a people-problem rather than a problem with his looks? In other words that it reflects on how shallow people are. Do we think that perhaps he might feel that God may even use him to teach people a lesson in compassion and tolerance? Opinions... ?

Just for the record, I am so loving following, and occasionally contributing to, this discussion. It's so rare to be able to actually *discuss* any kind of religious issue rationally and non-combatively in the real world. It tends to be too personal for people and can sometimes become vindictive.

This is great, to see people with differing viewpoints actually discussing them and maintaining respect for differing viewpoints. Agree to disagree and have a ball debating the details. It's fun. Boy do I miss that from college.

Yeah, I agree with you on that one. It also helps that we're writing this all down too. I'm not very good when it comes to talking with people. I tend to stutter, get angry, and people don't take me seriously because I have a bubbly attitude towards things so that when I am serious and talking, they never hear me. When I write about this with you guys...I can actually express myself and get my meaning across better! thanks you guys

"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania

Yeah... This is an awesome discussion. And I am so proud of you guys, discussing this stuff without hurling mud at each other! I go to other online communities and try and start something up like this and somebody jumps in and has to be a jerk and start stuff up with people... ! But not you guys! You've all been so good! Why can't the rest of the world be Nightcrawler Fans? Just think... if everyone in the world was a Nightcrawler Fan, like us, there would be no wars, no terrorism, no trouble in Northern Ireland, no trouble in the Middle East, no calling America the Great Satan, and everyone would get along and be happy and read comic books and not cause any trouble... !

"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania

Originally posted by BamfChyck
Im not here to clobber you, dear. I dont agree with you,

thats fine, i know even people with the same faith and beliefs will always dissagree.
but there doesnt have to be any love lost between us all.

by BamfChyk:
I dont think its in the bible that gays are going to hell. I believe that the verses that are used to support that arguement have been distorted and misused to the extent that they are no longer true to their original meaning, literally or otherwise.

i know, some do interpret it however they want to (and add things that arent even in it)but doesnt it make sense that if God were in charge of overseeing what goes into his word, that he would make sure that the people would be true to what he wanted it to say?

by Bamfchyk:
I dont think it says homosexuality is a sin, either. I could go over this verse by verse, if you want.

Ive got very strong discernment. It is currently my strongest spiritual gift, and since I was a little girl, Jesus has led me to fight the homophobic misuse of the bible. This is an issue very close to me, and I just weep when I hear people spewing such hate in Christs name.

but didnt you see in the 2nd part of my post where i said "no i dont hate homosexual people and no God doesnt hate homosexual people either"?
i work with a homosexual man and i love him, he is a wonderful person.

by Salinea:
People like that have made me lose my faith

(im sorry, i know you werent referring to me here )
but i am so very sorry to hear that!
i so hope i havent made it worse by what i said. if so i am extremely sorry!

by Northstars Love:
Angel, you need to understand that all people are different. And that includes gay people. There are many within the gay community that are very strong believers in God and Christ. Are we to assume that whatever they do to profess their faith will mean zip when they die? Did Christ not say that it is through faith that we are saved?

yes that is true Northstar.
what i know (and i know many will think im crazy, & just plain hard headed) is that homosexuality is a sin (and homosexual people sin). just like any other sin (no better, no worse) and it is because of our sins that separate us from God in the first place.
now i know that when we are saved he takes away those sins & separates us from them (like he says "farther than the east is from the west"). we are not all perfect and when we are saved we are still not perfect (we still sin) but God does still forgive us of those sins we make.
so to your statement about the homosexual community in the church not going to hell. i do not know if they will or will not.
all i know is when Jesus saves us from our sins. we are saved forever unless we turn from him and say "no i dont want to have anything to do with you anymore" (which is not to say that that person will indeed go to hell, you never know if the person will come back to the Lord in the future).

by Northstars Love:
Im a firm believer that my salvation comes from Christs death on Calvary.

Amen! and thats the only place it comes from, bro!

by Northstars Love:
And that he rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. I do not believe that a church or minister has the authority to say who is and who isnt going to Heaven. That judgement is left up to God. And to God alone.

yes ,but actually it is our decision if we are going to heaven( to accept Christs death as payment for our sins- that is the only way to heaven). He also said he will not reject any who come to him.

by Northstars Love:
It is a personal relationship between Christ and myself. Not any church. Not any other person.

Man is inherently corrupt and sinful according to the Christian faith. I cannot trust in man to save me. That includes ministers, priests and rabbis. They are sinfull just as you and I. That is why I put my trust and faith in Christ to save me from my sins. And it is he that gives the strength to endure the hateful ridicule and condemnation from my other brothers and sisters in Christ because of who I am.

but i did not say that I hated anyone.
and i am so sorry for them doing that to you!
i guess when people see something wrong some feel that "tough love is the awnser" and they say very mean things to try to make them see what they are doing is wrong. but they themselves dont realize that they are doing the same wrong only in a different way.
(and i know many here will call me a hypocrite for saying that- but in my original post i didnt really state my position very well, im sorry).

by Northstars Love:
I dont hate or wish ill will to those that hate or disagree with me. Only pray that God enlightens them to understand the plight of their gay brothers and sisters. We have a common goal Angel and that is to help others to Christ. Let us work together to achieve this goal instead of making it pull us apart because of our temporary earthly differences.

im glad you dont hate them.
and, yes you are right, our one goal is to show Jesuss love and redemption for the world through ourselves. we shouldnt let our dissagreements dampen that (i think God wouldnt be pleased with us doing that either).
*gives hug to Northstar*
please understand, i dont hate anyone here.
youre all fellow nighty lovers, how on earth could i ever hate you guys?

by Bamf Bunny:
Angel of the Night, Ive deleted your post because I believe it goes beyond the respect called for in the rules. Religion is a topic where it will not be possible for everyone to agree, but flat-out declaring that anyone is going to hell is not acceptable here.

Originally posted by BamfChyck
As far as all the queers going to hell--its Gods idea of redemption here that counts. Not mine, not yours. And ultimately, its His redemption that will affect us all.

ok, i know in the end i hurt alot of peoples feelings and angered many more but it was never my intention.
what i said i said because i believe some are going to hell (hey I was going to hell before Jesus saved me! ). but i never meant it to be like i was saying, "convert or die sinners!".
somebody a long time ago had guts , told me the truth and showed me how my sins could be forgiven. maybe i didnt say it the right way or something (probably) but… i guess, for my only defense i just wish to say that i wanted to tell the truth.

and also for the record, my post was not directed to the person that i was quoteing from, (she happened to say something and i had a view on it. thats all) also my comment was not directed toward any members of this forum.
l cannot point a finger at anyone and say who is going to hell because firstly it would be wrong of me, secondly because i do not know their relationship with God (now or in the future) and thirdly because i am not God.

but i do formaly appologize for hurting anyones feelings.

wait...I missed the whole Gay thing? Who said that? I gonna beats them up! no no, I kid, but I probably would have slapped them upside the head if we were talking face to face. Its the way I am sorry ^ ^.

I think that we as free thinking people have to try to discover god or whatever spiritually runs this world ourselves. I've been Jewish all my life yet I have not found through the many years of attending jewish camp and going to shabbat services anything within the religion that really inspires me to be a better person (even if it says I should be I can't connect with it- if you know what I mean). Instead, I try to look within myself and discover through my own experience of what is right or wrong. And that's not just because I don't believe in Jesus, because basically I think the messages of these religions are the same. I want to create my own spiritual path and not rely on what others tell me is the right way. And that's what I feel Judiasm tries to do, it limits your horizons. It's fading away and that makes me sad because they are my people, but it cannot keep up with the times (the case with the Orthodox and Conservitive sects). I hope nobody takes offence to this, I just want people to look into themselves before looking to any organized path.

I want to create my own spiritual path and not rely on what others tell me is the right way. And that's what I feel Judiasm tries to do, it limits your horizons

The quote above sounds to me like what people often want to do, create a god in their image, approach him on their terms. If you believe in a God as the creator of the universe, I really don't think I, for one, would feel comfortable approaching Him in this manner. It is a very presumptive attitude.

I have been staying away from this thread because religion is a personal and sensitive subject for most people. Also being a Christian, my Lord said there is one way to get to God and that is through Him. This makes some people very angry and defensive, and often we are called intolerant and hateful because of it. But that is to be expected and Jesus warned us it would happen.

If you really study religions, as I have, they are not all the same. Some ideas are almost diametrically opposed. To say that all religions lead to God does not make sense to me. I want a God that is above myself, not flawed like humans, a God whose truths stand the test of time.

What never ceases to amaze me is that the God that has the power to create the universe would still care about ME. But he does, and regardless of our failings or our inadequacies (and I have many, to be sure), He still loves us. This is the message of Christianity that I cling to: That while we are flawed and ALL of us are sinners, he sent one spotless lamb, fully man and fully God to take our punishment. It is our choice to accept this free gift or reject it and that is the clincher. Anything else is really moot point, not how you worship, or your sexual orientation, or your political party or anything else. And at the end of time as we know it, it will be God who judges, not us.

The commands of God boil down to this: Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself.

I hope this has not offended anyone. You are all entitled to your own opinions, but I am feeling very reflective at the moment and I needed to share this.

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream." Mark Twain

I have to agree with that on some kind of level. I mean, I don't want a God who makes mistakes like people, that would stink!

I think Nightcrawler said it best in I think it was issue 419 when he was talking to Father Whitley, and how he was asking where his God was, the one who's benevolent and isn't careless and capricious.

"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania

I've noticed that if you look in your holy texts, whether that's the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'ran, or whatever, you'll find justification for whatever point of view you already espouse.

For example, in the Bible it is stated quite clearly that "I am the light and the life: you will only see the Father through me." But, if you look further on, you'll see a point where Christ talks about speaking with those who have departed, berating some and praising others.

Many asked "Hey, hold on! We've never seen you before! When did we treat you so well?" And His response? "As you treated the least of my bretheren, so you treated me." How many people from different faiths would recognize Christ as Himself if he showed up on their doorstep? Especially those who have never even *heard* of Christianity, yet still do well and with good works for the sake of good, as opposed to wanting something in return?

To me, this suggests that it is very possible to get to heaven, no matter your religion, because if you lead good lives, helping your fellows without thought of something in return, you have worshipped Him whether you know it or not.

Of course, that's just my take on things... but seeing as our Parish Priest, Father Leo, was one who espoused just this P.O.V. in one of his sermons, I'd have to think it isn't as heretical a notion as some might believe....

Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into the intake of a jet engine.....

"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania

Originally posted by Lauren
Actually, if anyone here as ever read the Narnia books, Aslan actually says that around the ending when he talks to someone who served Tash which is the Satan of that place.

Basically, he says if you do good in Tash's name, you serve him and if you do evil in the name of Aslan you serve Tash.

You know, one of these days, I have got to read the Chronicles of Narnia. I've heard so much about them, and know the basic premise, but I've never actually read them. And it's a seminal fantasy series, like LOTR.

I'd have to wonder... if anything like this could have influenced Kurt in his past....

Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into the intake of a jet engine.....

Last Battle Tash worshipper? Went to "heaven"? Emeth. His name was Emeth. Book geek here!

C.S. was VERY sexist. "Wars are ugly when women fight"? Ugh.

As for believing X or Y will go to hell...you can believe that all you like, as long as you can understand that I disagree with you and believe there is no such thing as hell anywhere but in the minds of vengeful human beings.

Mystique: "How would you like to come see some really awful black velvet paintings of bullfighters?"
Wolverine: "What, no etchings?"
Mystique: "Just bullfighters...that's all they have on my motel room wall."
--Wolverine #51, "The Crunch Conundrum"

"Scott, everybody knows J-P would slap us all silly and make us little French speaking clones of him if he could." -- Bobby Drake

I've been of the opinion that Hell was someplace we placed ourselves in, by deliberately distancing ourselves from all that was good. If we place ourselves in Hell, it stands to reason that we create it for ourselves.

My only real problem with the idea of Satan isn't his existance, but his power level. Evil being the selfish, paranoid thing that it is, you just know he's gotta spend all his time watching his subordinates, to make sure they don't screw him like he's screwed them. It'd be such a logistic nightmare that he'd have very little time for screwing up the rest of us.....

Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into the intake of a jet engine.....

The first point I'd like to address is that people "following their own spiritual path" is different from "creating god in their own image". I very much dissagree with this statement. I know some people who belive in the same god as I, and see him as infallable, but don't go to church or ever preach their faith. Instead they go and do volunteer work, they're getting intouch with god in their own way. They don't recreate God, they just interprate what their mission in life, and path to him much differently from other people.

Secondly, If Satan had enough persuasion, and enough of a following to even try to challenge God in the first place (even though he lost and was exiled to hell) He probably has enough power to not worry about the people he's tricked or missguided. I just think that Satan gets more power every time someone doesn't belive that he's real. Anyone who can corrupted as much as he does, exists and has power. (in my opinion of course). I hate to quote movies but "the greatest trick the devil ever did was convincing the world he didn't exist."

oh, and lastly, I was only joking about wanting to throwdown over calling comics silly. I just spend so much time defending them every day practicly. They're not just kids stuff.

I also, appologize if i've missinterpreted any of the things I was replying to. Don't get mad please.

"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania

How can a created being boot out an all- knowing, all-powerful God of the universe out of Heaven?

He can't.

But God decided if Lucifer wanted his own kingdom, why not cast him down into an abyss with a third of Heaven's angels that followed him.

I would like to think it would have gone like this:

God -"There you go Morning Star. Your own kingdom to reign. The master of the underworld.

Lucifer- "Thanks. Kind of dark down here. Could I get a light?"

God- "You should have thought of that before you tried to take over my throne. Not to mention influencing a third of the angels to join you. You are now eternally out of my presence, and the brilliant infinite light that had bathed you for eons has been replaced with total darkness...."

Lucifer-"Ya. Ya. Save the epilogue. Can I get a light down here?"

God-"I'll do better than that. How about some fire and brimstone?"

Lucifer-"Well, it would smell horribly. I don't think I'd like that too much.

God- "At this point Lucifer, you really don't have a choice."

Lucifer-:yell......

Lucifer created his own Hell. So now he has to live with it. To be so arrogant into thinking he could take out God. Talk about not being the brightest crayon in the box!

"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania

"No, you see I'm blind in my right eye now... So boring. You know what really makes me pissy? Grunge, Heroine chic, and dying are over. I so hate being behind the curve. Tourism's up." Brett(Alan Cumming) from Urbania

To get just a wee bit off-topic, I've always said that the big difference between men and women is this:

When men get into a physical fight, people turn to watch. When women get into a physical fight, people turn away.

Women are far more likely to have a screaming match than a punching contest. Our weapon of choice, by and large, tends more towards words. That's one of the reasons we were forbidden to go into politics in times past: we were too good at it

Really, think about it. When little boys are claiming that "my dad can beat up your dad" as a taunt, little girls are backbiting with "Well, Judy really doesn't like you, but don't tell her I said it, 'cause she'll say she likes you, but she really doesn't...." Men physically dominate, while women emotionally manipulate.

Which comes down to this: if it's gotten so bad that we're actually punching each other, it's gotten baaaaad. I'm talkin' primal, irrational, animalistic, turn off the brain, screamin' and clawin' baaaaad.

Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into the intake of a jet engine.....