Ye because comparing it to old bosses from 2006 that was bugged for like 89 days and got killed the same day as blizzard fixed it, locked behind long gear checks or gates is cool. Anyone here that listened to the podcast with slootbag (Midwinter) and Sco (Method) would know how they talked about Lei Shen being the hardest boss up to 5.2 encounter wise, that is being able to be killed without needing to farm gear for like 5 weeks to match the gearcheck. How many days a boss lasted 5 years ago has nothing to do with how hard the boss was.

I've heard it from the best raiders in the world that NO bosses compare to Heroic Lich King and Heroic Ragnaros. That list is irrelevant when the raiders who were in the world top 10 for most if not all of the bosses say this.

Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang

"I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"

Ok, a harder but more accurate list would be, the guild that got WF on these bosses, how many attempts did it take them? If it took 50 days but they got it in only 4 attempts (not that that's realistic but you get my point), then that means something different than a boss that only took 25 days, but 8 tries.

I've only raided since DS so I can't comment on ever. But I'd say he's definitely the hardest normal mode boss I've fought definitely harder than some of the heroic bosses from tier 15. How that will translate to heroic I don't know. I'll tell you in about 3 or 4 months or maybe next expansion :P

Not even remotely accurate. Yes, gear design was a bit shoddy back then but it was what it was. Taking into account gear stating is part of the difficulty of raiding. Also, I can tell you for a fact player skill has changed very little over time. The only difference is the tools the players to have are more refined now, which ultimately makes raiding easier in my opinion.

#1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
#2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
#6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
#7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
#13 Lady Vashj <Coilfang Matron> - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
#14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
#22 tied Sapphiron - 8 days from Four Horsemen dying. 2nd September 2006

It's worth noting that of your list, these ones weren't 'hard'. Which kinda defeats the purpose of your "HAS TO BE ON THIS LIST" thing.

Hell, 1,2,6, and 13 were BUGGED and unkillable at release...

Leo and Saph required a large amount of resist, but wasn't hard.(I believe Leo was bugged as well...T5 was pretty darn buggy looking back)

And ofc the hardest thing about 4h was getting 4 warrior tanks with 4pc...

Originally Posted by Darion

Not even remotely accurate. Yes, gear design was a bit shoddy back then but it was what it was. Taking into account gear stating is part of the difficulty of raiding. Also, I can tell you for a fact player skill has changed very little over time. The only difference is the tools the players to have are more refined now, which ultimately makes raiding easier in my opinion.

Watch a Nef kill, or C'thun, then go back and watch a heroic siegecrafter kill.
The skill is very, very much improved.

Sorry I cant bother with trying to argue about a boss being hard mesured on how many days it did take to kill it /facepalm

Forum people are funny. I'm not *arguing* anything. I remembered a list, found it, and linked it. There is no other list like it that I am aware of or was able to find.

That was posted in answer to the OP:

Originally Posted by Caesar

Please discuss. I'm curious as to how Garrosh ranks as it is taking some time for the top guilds to down him.

We don't have any reports from a group of people with the diverse raiding experience required to accurately respond to the question because - duh - difficulty is subjective. Some guilds will struggle more on one boss than another.

No *argument* to it. Anything else in there was my opinion...which I'm entitled to, just like you.

I hate these threads because it's just a bunch of people who never raided in in Vanilla/TBC yelling about bosses being so much harder now. Honestly if you think four horsemen, Gothik, C'thun and others were easy, you clearly don't know what you're talking about

I hate these threads because it's just a bunch of people who never raided in in Vanilla/TBC yelling about bosses being so much harder now. Honestly if you think four horsemen, Gothik, C'thun and others were easy, you clearly don't know what you're talking about

People aren't saying they were easy, they are saying recent bosses, e.g. Lich King, Ragnaros were just harder.

Re:

Watch a Nef kill, or C'thun, then go back and watch a heroic siegecrafter kill.
The skill is very, very much improved.

Well, to put it simply, as I stated above the tools players have in Raiding now have improved drastically. Saying that just because people have more refined tools to deal with more complex mechanics makes them better raiders is rather presumptuous. It's kind of like saying that because a four year old today has better tools to do stuff with that he's smarter than a Renaissance Historian, Philosopher or Scientist. In many cases, some of the modern Heroic Raiders are still the same people who were pulling World firsts back in WoTLK and they've simply switched Guilds.

You have to remember that back in Vanilla, you could not get nearly as many attempts on bosses as you can now. The guilds these days are getting hundreds of attempts on some bosses. No way you could have consumables and stuff available to do that back in vanilla.

Also, the devs are much MUCH better at designing things now and making them challenging, yet doable. think about this, would Garrosh be ´better´ if the devs doubled his health? Nah, it would just be a trainwreck. Back then the devs were pretty off the mark as far as expected dps and stuff like that, so they more often then not just had too many hps for the boss and we called them ´harder´..

I'll admit that I haven't played in vanilla and bc, but as far as I have heard (from an objective point of view) the quoted paragraph is true.

I've only raided since DS so I can't comment on ever. But I'd say he's definitely the hardest normal mode boss I've fought definitely harder than some of the heroic bosses from tier 15. How that will translate to heroic I don't know. I'll tell you in about 3 or 4 months or maybe next expansion :P

Garrosh normal was really quite tough for a normal endboss yeah. However perhaps it only feels that way because of how easy the first bosses in SoO were for us overgeared raiders.

that list only includes final bosses i think it could be argued that Heroic Spine of deathwing was one of the harder bosses

Not really no.
Spine of DW was unkillable before they did like two nerfs/hotfixes. Then it required insane class stacking and resto shammies in order to beat the gear check. And all this took only 6 days.

Don't get me wrong; HC spine was very hard compared to the rest of DS. In the end of the tier the difficulty was keeping the fucking raid alive. This wasn't easy at all.

I believe that the proper measure for this sort of thing isn't time till defeat. Most raiders count wipes which seems to be a far more accurate and fair way to measure boss difficulty among cutting edge raiding.

Now, about the average raider being better, its true. People, overall, are more informed and better prepared for raiding and this isn't just because people decided this for them. Blizzard has made it a point to better inform people about mechanics, introduces things on trash and now has a journal in game to let you know what things were. Plus the fan sites do an amazing job at informing strats and giving tips and showing videos of kills. All that together will give a rise to win rates and throws the hole "raids use to be harder" speech off.

Truth is, heroic raiding today IS some of the hardest that's ever been. If you don't believe that, go ask one of those guys on the world 1st race. They've been at it non stop for 2 weeks now and still haven't finished some of the fights.