Not really. I was merely stating more lives could have been saved if it wasn't for Jainas twisted mentality.

She sacrifices her own father, who has seen the true color of the Horde, the color of blood, just for the sake of peace, a revelation which proved to be delusional. But of course, she prioritized her love for Thrall over her father. Her betrayal in Undercity was already mentioned. Then everything went down to hell.

Everything went to hell in wrathgate, BEFORE undercity.

Also you probably jumped an expansion, because if Varian succeeded in killing thrall (which is still for debate) there wouldn't be an Azeroth now, Deathwing would have won. Every character would be death, so no! You are completely wrong. Jaina did the absolutely right thing at the point. It was Thrall's Horde not Garrosh's.

Originally Posted by Oradraffe

MoP is not happening i can promise that.

Originally Posted by Tric619

Been playing since week 1 and still believe Mop is the next expac? >.>

Originally Posted by Feyrzhuk

MoP will never be a WoW expansion. Feel free to flame and ridicule me should I be proven wrong.

Except all of those are either leaders or relevant members of the comunity, Fanlyr is a no one flying the banner of the Sunreavers while operating in favour of Garrosh.

Which makes the point even more profound.

Originally Posted by Nindoriel

And that's supposed to tell me what?

That that particular individual didn't give an airbourne intercourse about the image or reputation of his supposed faction while operating on the behest of someone else. Let us judge Alliance based on Arthas. Let us judge night elves based on Staghelm. Let us slaughter Ironforge because Moira was Thassarian's concubine when Dark Irons were still worshipping Ragnaros. Let us punish groups for individual's sins.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

That that particular individual didn't give an airbourne intercourse about the image or reputation of his supposed faction while operating on the behest of someone else. Let us judge Alliance based on Arthas. Let us judge night elves based on Staghelm. Let us slaughter Ironforge because Moira was Thassarian's concubine when Dark Irons were still worshipping Ragnaros. Let us punish groups for individual's sins.

Moira and Thassarian, did I miss something? Is that Dwarf getting jiggy with a Death Knight?

The Sunreavers betrayed them twice. It would be stupid to give them the chance to do it a third time. They should've been kicked out the first time.

Isn't this just common sense though? It was a covert, non-combat espionage mission, in and out through one guy's portal. Just how many could have possibly known about it? What possible reason would Fanlyr have to involve any more than the absolute minimum (the three or four shield mages we see) of Sunreaver stooges stupid enough to risk their neutrality for Garrosh?

You make it sound like Fanlyr was running around Dalaran telling everyone about this super secret mission that he'd been tasked with. Assuming he's not retarded (which, to be fair, after seeing his piss poor cleaning up skills, may be a generous assumption), barely anyone would have had knowledge of the mission.

Low-key espionage missions given to you by the head of state aren't exactly things one goes blabbing around town.

I've just rewatched the video and you can see Sunreaver mages holding up the shield around Fan'lyr, so it's definitely Sunreavers, not just one Sunreaver. And the quest text says "Furthermore the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde with this operation." He's not just saying that he risks their neutrality.

Actually Thrall was chosen because he was Metzen's favorite character. I believe a lot of other characters could also control the Dragon Soul.

Nope. Thrall is the strongest Shaman on Azeroth by far, when he wasn't even all into shaman mode it was pretty much shown that he was still powerful as hell(see Battle for undercity and WC3). He has always been built up as a powerful shaman. Now that he can tap into the power of the Azeroth's Earth fully at will he almost rivals an Aspect in power I'd say. To be able to pull the essence of Khazgoroth from the Earth of Azeroth straight into the Dragon Soul is an amazing feat that the Aspects themselves could not accomplish without Deathwing. They needed Thrall for it. Even Malfurion(who is thousands of years old) is impressed by his power, I think you underestimate it. Also to communicate with the Earth on that level you need to be a shaman, no other class could of done it. Druids are nature and balance as a whole, mages are arcane...etc. Thrall was the only person for the job, it's the entire basis for him leaving the horde in the first place that led to all this conflict with Garrosh, Jaina and Varian. If some other shaman could of done it, Thrall would of stayed as Warchief.

As for the the main topic here, this thread was a really good read for me. Lots of good discussion on the ethics of war, and who the 'innocents' really are. I can't really add anything that hasn't been said but I am of the opinion that both sides are at fault here. I see an Alliance faction who struggles to hang on to their code of honor and decency in a time of war and are slowly becoming the thing they swear to fight. Like how many times has the Horde backstabbed them now or at least appeared to? It's hard to maintain such a positive outlook and be trusting when your apparent ally seems to take every opportunity to kill you and chase you out of land ancestrally yours. On the other hand I see a horde faction struggling with what happens when a impulsive xenophobic tyrant takes over. Any Atrocity that the Horde has committed has been because of Garrosh, he is the reason, yet the horde itself must pay with innocent lives. Like Lor'themar pretty much said, Garrosh is buying things with Horde blood with no plan. He did all that stuff to get the bell, and caused so much conflict, for what? So Ishi could die and a child who was no threat, breaks his bones? It's madness!

Blizzard has done an excellent job of showing how atrocity simply breeds more atrocity and is viewed as such by either side, regardless of affiliation. Theramore was an atrocity no matter what side you look at it from, as was the purge of Dalaran. In both cases innocent people suffered while the guilty parties or the main targets for the most part remained unscathed.

Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2013-01-22 at 01:34 AM.

The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?"-Children of Dune

Indeed, especially considering Lor'Themar Theron was genuinely angry when he knew what had happened, blaming not only Jaina but Garrosh (therefore including his lapdog, Fanlyr) aswell for the tragic events. Doesn't make much sense to have Silvermoon Mages, unless they went there on their own, without authority from the Regent Lord.

EDIT: Good post, Duncanîdaho.

Last edited by Gaelden; 2013-01-22 at 01:30 AM.

It ain’t wise to poke a warrior so much, sonny. We just might poke ya back.

That was a joke about relatives. Also, not only that kind of thing (Sunreaver betrayal) happened twice. Kel'thuzad and Arthas worked in a pair... good image for the Alliance.

I understand Jaina might be too blind to understand what happened, but Et tu, Brute? It's clearly stated in the lore that the Sunreavers (sent by the Kirin Tor) willingly wanted to help Theramore, but Thalen tricked everyone into weakening the northern gate, instead of strenghtening it, playing the role of the Garrosh instead of the Sunreavers.

What happened in Dalaran was pretty much the same all over again.

It ain’t wise to poke a warrior so much, sonny. We just might poke ya back.

I understand Jaina might be too blind to understand what happened, but Et tu, Brute? It's clearly stated in the lore that the Sunreavers (sent by the Kirin Tor) willingly wanted to help Theramore, but Thalen tricked everyone into weakening the northern gate, instead of strenghtening it, playing the role of the Garrosh instead of the Sunreavers.

What happened in Dalaran was pretty much the same all over again.

She's not a brute. I condone what she did but it is understandable why she did it. It also isn't the worst thing in the world she has done. Think of it this way "TWICE" Sunreavers have screwed her over and cost lives. How would you feel?

Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

She's not a brute. I condone what she did but it is understandable why she did it. It also isn't the worst thing in the world she has done. Think of it this way "TWICE" Sunreavers have screwed her over and cost lives. How would you feel?

Like an idiot, that's for sure. But to drown Dalaran in blood... was a bit of overreacting (females...). Besides, she's really an idiot if Garrosh - that oafish-looking brute - is the only one playing the spy game (that kind of reminds me of Letho from Witcher 2). In her city. If this goes on, she'll awaken one day with Rise of the Horde in her bed.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

Like an idiot, that's for sure. But to drown Dalaran in blood... was a bit of overreacting (females...). Besides, she's really an idiot if Garrosh - that oafish-looking brute - is the only one playing the spy game (that kind of reminds me of Letho from Witcher 2). In her city. If this goes on, she'll awaken one day with Rise of the Horde in her bed.

Uhhh no you are once again being too harsh. She didn't drown Dalaran in blood. That's a big sensationalizing there. And what does overreacting have anything to do with females. I don't suggest making thinly veiled attack on females in threads.

Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

Uhhh no you are once again being too harsh. She didn't drown Dalaran in blood. That's a big sensationalizing there. And what does overreacting have anything to do with females. I don't suggest making thinly veiled attack on females in threads.

Meh, it's only fair to be mildly shauvinistiс these days, just to balance things out. Well, I dunno, slaughtering half a district isn't a small deal to me, especially considering that the whole city is very small.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

That was a joke about relatives. Also, not only that kind of thing (Sunreaver betrayal) happened twice. Kel'thuzad and Arthas worked in a pair... good image for the Alliance.

Why do Kel and Arthas have anything to do with it. I mean we're not here to prove that Blood Elves are evil. We don't need to show that there are also evil humans. This is just about whether the Sunreavers can be trusted and how they honor their membership in the Kirin Tor. Since it really seems to look like it was only Fanlyr who was involved, we're only talking about 2 individuals out of the Sunreavers and I can feel why the whole of them feels unfairly treated. But you still have to consider Jaina had no way of knowing how many of them were involved in the retrieving of the Bell. All she knew was that she was betrayed twice. She had to do what's best for her people.

Why do Kel and Arthas have anything to do with it. I mean we're not here to prove that Blood Elves are evil. We don't need to show that there are also evil humans. This is just about whether the Sunreavers can be trusted and how they honor their membership in the Kirin Tor. Since it really seems to look like it was only Fanlyr who was involved, we're only talking about 2 individuals out of the Sunreavers and I can feel why the whole of them feels unfairly treated. But you still have to consider Jaina had no way of knowing how many of them were involved in the retrieving of the Bell. All she knew was that she was betrayed twice. She had to do what's best for her people.

That bitch! I wonder why she didn't slaughter mankind when she learned of Arthas' betrayal, just in case there were other Scourge initiates among them. It's all about the race in the end.

"A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

Meh, it's only fair to be mildly shauvinistiс these days, just to balance things out. Well, I dunno, slaughtering half a district isn't a small deal to me, especially considering that the whole city is very small.