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Hey everybody,

We would love to hear your feedback and any suggestions you may have for our new VWVortex store.

Let us know if there is a color option you would like added or a particular merchandise item you would like to see in the store. Have you had a chance to buy an item from our store? Then we want to hear what you think about the merchandise you bought.

If you would like to provide feedback/suggestions please post in here in the Store Feedback forum.

Update for any interested UK Eos owners who still have leak issues. My Eos (delivered 13 January) still has an occasional drip onto the interior sill as I described in an earlier post. It seems to be completely random - heavy rain can leave it bone dry but then after a wash the drip can appear.
The car has been to the nearest dealer with an Eos trained technician and "recall 61A8" was apparently carried out, the car was water tested (not sure how) and declared to be leak free.
When the drip re-appeared a few days ago I e-mailed the salesman with a copy of Michael's post attached. I have been contacted by the Service Manager who advised that they believed that the dealer who carried out the previous work had lubricated some of the seals (no mention was made of the VW lubricant so it may or may not have been that which was used but I would hope so). He said the special lubricant was on back order (ie out of stock) as there was none in the UK at the moment(!) and it would arrive in 7 to 10 days. When it arrives, the car will be booked in and they (the supplying dealer) will carry out a full lubrication.
I will update you all as to the results as soon as I can. I sincerely hope they do the work as thoroughly as Michael and his dealership and achieve the same results!!
Peter

Re: (pjgraham86)

Hi Peter:
Thanks for sharing your experience. The techs at my VW dealership (VW Richmond Hill, north of Toronto, Canada) have now lubricated two Eos, and it seems it takes about 25 to 30 minutes to do a really thorough job and get every single seal on the car. That does not count the time required to wash the car first, or to let it air-dry with the roof down and the trunk lid open, prior to applying the lubricant.
They have three more unsold Eos in inventory, and have set aside two bottles of the special lubricant as 'dedicated' to those vehicles. They made the policy decision that they would lubricate all seals on the day of delivery, not as part of the PDI process, because sometimes there can be a fair amount of time between when the PDI is carried out (and the car then put in the showroom) and the time someone actually buys and takes delivery of it.
Michael

Re: (PanEuropean)

Michael, its been said before, but you have the sort of dealership that makes one want to drive up there for service!

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean &raquo;

They made the policy decision that they would lubricate all seals on the day of delivery, not as part of the PDI process, because sometimes there can be a fair amount of time between when the PDI is carried out (and the car then put in the showroom) and the time someone actually buys and takes delivery of it.

Although, if the seals are already aging and drying in transport, and on the lots in the rain and getting washed by the dealership, why wouldn't the dealer want the seals to look and act their best for potential customers too?
Especially if rain might get into the car and make it musty, or have water there when you show it off , you would want the seals to be good before then.
Although I certainly admire the people at that dealership as well as yourself! I feel that with your presentation of the seal lubrication experience (& $50 worth of oil) I will be able to restore the seals in this car to supple, water-resistant SEALS.
Maybe I should try them on my other seals too.
I can see that your dealership wants to give a clear base-timeline for when the service was done, and that is very commendable. But unless the factory starts to do it themselves as they are shipped out (not a bad idea), then the dealers need to do it when they get the cars, especially if the vehicles are going to be outside in the elements.
William

Re: (kghia)

William:
It doesn't really make a lot of sense to apply lubricant to the seals before putting the car in the showroom. First of all, the roof works just fine on a new car that has never been driven. Second, the cars are shipped from the factory with a protective adhesive sheet material (Rapgard) stuck all over the car, even if a seal was physically missing, water would not get inside. Normally, the dealer does not remove this material until the car is brought inside the showroom - in other words, vehicles that have arrived and are simply being kept in inventory are usually left in the storage compound with the Rapgard (and all the other protective shipping coverings) still in place. Lastly, the lubricant is greasy when it is first applied, and people would get it all over their hands (and all over the paint and upholstery of the new car) if it was applied to the car and the car was then put in an indoor showroom for display.
The whole point of lubricating the seals on the day of delivery is to ensure that everything is all set to go when the customer takes delivery of the car. The same concept applies to other components of the car, for example, the battery is always charged on day of delivery, because it is assumed that it will have depleted somewhat during shipping. It's pointless to charge it prior to day of delivery unless the car doesn't start. Tire pressures are always checked on day of delivery, other fluid levels are always checked on day of delivery, etc. All of these tasks are need to be repeated periodically throughout the life of the vehicle, thus it only makes sense to ensure that the "clock is set to zero", so to speak, on the day that the customer takes delivery. This strategy ensures the highest possible level of customer satisfaction.
I suppose that if VW starts to get complaints from prospective customers (showroom visitors) that roof seals are leaking on cars that are on display in the indoor showrooms, they will take a second look at things and perhaps revisit the issue. But I have not heard of any complaints such as this yet.
About your suggestion that the factory pre-lubricate seals - listen, I know you are very keen about cars, but I honestly don't think either one of us is qualified to start telling the factory how to build cars. Let's just stick to things that we know, in other words, things that we have personal experience with.
MichaelPS: Before you raise an objection about "the lubricant is greasy", let me answer it for you. The lubricant is going to stay greasy as long as the car is kept indoors. As soon as you take it outside, drive it around, get some dust on it, wash it once or twice, etc. the surface greasiness will go away.

Re: (PanEuropean)

Non-VW Krylox option: GMPartsDirect $42.44 (shipped for 1 oz). Took 14 days from order date but the applicator is nice. It has an applicator tip (felt with a push stopper). Granted some will be lost in the felt, but it applied nicely and evenly.
Two cars (EOS and G6 panoramic sunroof, which also rattled!) and still 1/3 left.

Re: (PanEuropean)

Hi Michael,
Sorry, but I have to agree that William has a valid point on this one.
I agree that while the car is in "storage" there would be no advantage to applying lubricant to the seals.
But once a car is PDI'd it is generally ready for presentation and demonstration to potential buyers. By lubricating the seals during PDI the dealership would eliminate the possibility of any seal pinching that could occur during a demo of the roof operation. (and lets be realistic, on the Eos there is a good possibility the roof could be demo'ed many times)
If the car sits on the lot long enough to require an additional application of lubricant before delivery to the customer, then so be it.
It has been stated on this forum many times that on a $30-$50K car (depending on region), a $100 dollar maintenance expenditure is no big deal to protect the investment.
I think it would be a common sense decision for a dealership to lubricate the seals at PDI to protect their investment, and to promote brand integrity. If required, an additional application of lubricant prior to delivery would be good customer service.
Kevin

Re: (just4fun)

Hi Kevin:
Maybe a good 'compromise in the middle' might be to inspect the function of the seals (roof opening and closing cycles) at the time of PDI, and if no problems (pinches) are found, wait until delivery day to apply the lubricant, but if any pinches are found, to apply the lubricant right away to get rid of the pinches.
The primary problem associated with applying the lubricant to a car that will be put in an indoor showroom is that it will retain a bit of a 'greasy' finish as long as the car remains indoors, in a warm and 'clean air' environment, and it is not washed. This means that the lubricant is going to wind up everywhere else - on the paint, on the interior, on the customers, etc.
Michael

Re: (WolfsburgerMitFries)

As someone waiting (somewhat patiently) for my Eos, I have been following this tread with a lot of interest.
WolfsburgerMitFries's point brings up a question: I wonder is other coupe-cabriolet vehicles experience similar issues with their roofs? I think the Krytox is a good work-around solution, but the engineer in me wonders if this is a design issue, rather than a maintenance one. It would be interesting if anyone knows how the Volvo C70, Mercedes SLK, and even the Euro CCs do in terms of leakage.
In other words, are the seals a generic issue with coupe-cabriolets, or particular to the Eos?

Re: (bbwinterpeg)

Hi Robert, welcome to the forum,
I can't speak specifically to seals and leaks on other drop top designs by other manufactures, however when I contacted the Canadian Krytox distributor he told me it was a common occurance to get calls from individuals looking for Krytox in small quantity packaging for use on their retractable hard tops.
Whether this is to prevent leaks or squeaks or both I'm not certain, but it is an indication that lubricating seals on other brands of retractables is fairly common.
My curiosity is getting the better of me; your handle bbwinterpeg, are you from Manitoba at some point in time??
Kevin

Re: (PanEuropean)

As a good Canadian, I can always agree to taking a stand firmly on the fence.
Having worked with both the grease and liquid forms of the product I am confident that if the lubricant is properly "massaged" into, and absorbed by the seals, unwanted transfer to other surfaces should be minimal.
Those that have followed my posts know that I treated the weatherstripping on my van with the Krytox grease. The weatherstripping around the doors is where you would be most apt to rub against them and transfer lubricant to your clothing or skin. We have not experienced this difficulty.
I did have some liquid lubricant smeared on the paint on the Eos after applying the lubricant, but this was from my hands where I leaned on the car or opened a door, etc. I have washed and toweled down the car a couple times since, and have not noticed any smearing.
A successful sales person would take advantage of the opportunity to show a prospective buyer what a properly maintained seal looks and feels like and would extol the virtues of how properly maintained, soft supple, seals will keep the car warm, snug, and dry for many years.
At any rate we've beat this one around long enough, in my humble opinion, the sooner the lubricant is applied the seals the better, and after that regular applications as required is the ticket.
Kevin

Re: (just4fun)

I too was wondering that same thing about other drop tops. I can't speak to hard top convertibles, my wife has has many regular drop-tops. Never don the gasket rejuvinate thing. My wife's current car is a 2002 MR-2 spyder, After reading, I specidically looked at the seals around the top. They are as soft and supple as the day I bought the car.
I like the EOS very much and find it very appealing. Also looking at several other hard top convertible's like the MB SLK. The thought of "oiling" the gaskets every 6 months is a strike against the EOS. But maybe the other's problems just arn't as well documented?
SOS

Re: (big_sos)

Hi Sean:
I suspect that the roof seals on the newer 'convertible hardtops' (Mercedes, Volvo, Volkswagen) are made of a newer design seal material than the roof seals on your 2002 vehicle, and this is why they all require periodic lubrication with the special lubricant to perform at their best.
Michael

Re: (big_sos)

The thought of "oiling" the gaskets every 6 months is a strike against the EOS. But maybe the other's problems just arn't as well documented?
SOS

I would strongly encourage everyone who is following this issue to NOT interpret the weatherstrip maintenance with Krytox as some sort of design deficiency or under engineering. That sentiment should probably be added to the 1st/key post. All retractible hardtops are going to need (and would benefit from) this maintenence regimen, the owners may just not know it yet.
The intent in my original question above (maybe 5 posts) was more about wondering if other forums get into the excruciating level of detail that we have. There's now 2 massive threads with piles of information about something that in reality, is pretty simple.
I'm sure all discussion forums for owners of retractable hardtops are eventually going to come to the same level of collective consciousness regarding seal maintenence that we have, regardless of who makes the car. I just feel that by the nature of the Vortex being largest automotive community on the internet, we have gotten ahead of the curve in our examination of this issue.

Re: (WolfsburgerMitFries)

I don't know that I see this weatherstrip issue as a design defect. I just look at it as normal maintenence. All cars have features which have pro's and con's. Some people want them and some people don't.
I still know people who hate electric windows. Their theory is they will break and need to be fixed, where if they only had a crank, they would be fine. I could go on with this list forever.
Convertible tops are one of the areas that require some special attention. I remember when they used to have plastic rear-windows which would get all foggy after a couple of years. And you'd need to shell out $$$ for a new one. Well, that was life if you wanted a drop-top.
I think the convertible hard top is one of those things (along with perhaps the panoramic roofs) that need a little extra attention. You've got to make sure it's maintained properly. It's like changing the oil. The enjoyment you get is a full hard top that converts to a top-down, fun convertible. You just have to weigh the trade-offs.
Some will buy a honda civic sedan with cloth seats and call it a day. I (and I know my wife) prefer somthing more exciting. And the EOS certainly fits that description.
Thanks to everyone in this forum for documenting this procedure. In the end, I know it will make a lot of EOS users much happier customers.

Re: (big_sos)

I still know people who hate electric windows. Their theory is they will break and need to be fixed, where if they only had a crank, they would be fine. I could go on with this list forever.
Convertible tops are one of the areas that require some special attention. I remember when they used to have plastic rear-windows which would get all foggy after a couple of years. And you'd need to shell out $$$ for a new one. Well, that was life if you wanted a drop-top.

yes, I'd take those analogies, but you need to think about what you would say if the electric window broke on the first month (or sooner).
What if the plastic rear window fogged up slowly to opaque by the end of a month or two?
I had to replace the top on my VW 181, and it was fogged like that. My 1976 VW 181.
Even though it is not listed as a regular maintenance item with a schedule, I feel perfectly fine treating it on a schedule(although not replacing the top). I just think that schedule should begin ____ unitsafter ownership.
Have any of you changed your transmission oil yet? It needs to last 80k miles, make sure it starts off good.
We need to get gubbygirl in her for a comment. Leaks led to her top begin serviced and I think replaced. I wouldn't want to think of that as a maintenance item.
BTW, on that electric window theory-- that was me too! A salesman was trying to sell me a used VW Westy camper from a group 1989, 1990, 1990, and "I said what about when the electric window winder breaks?" He told me (and you could feel) that there was the end of the shaft, that the handcrank fits on, right behind the cloth on the door panel. You could just poke it open and fit the external parts on if you wished. Or you would get the electrics fixed. I didn't end up buying it, but I thought that was a great design.
William

Re: (big_sos)

There was a time many many years ago when vehicle maintenance by the owner was an expected part of vehicle ownership. Many people actually took enjoyment from the maintenance activity, and pride in having a well-maintained vehicle.
That population of car owners is decreasing. It's nowhere near the majority of owners (although it's probably a majority of participants here).
Walk up to your nearest Toyota or Volkswagen dealer and talk to the couple buying a new vehicle. Ask them what they expect to do to maintain the vehicle. A shocking number will respond only with following the maintenance schedule in the manaul (and some will argue even that isn't entirely needed). Some will remember to wash their vehicle at the local 3-minute automatic pressure wash, and hopefully a few will remember to check the air pressure in their tires (although even that is becoming less "necessary" with TPMS). Checking fluids? Nah - the car will tell the driver when something is wrong. Actually working on the vehicle? Never - someone else does that.
Along comes a hardtop convertible. Apparently, regular, "frequent" maintenance will be required, and it's not something that the local oil lube shop will do for $25. Heck, the materials alone might be $30! This might be something the owner would actually have to do themselves!!! Shocking for a new vehicle.
The alternative will be people ignoring this basic maintenance, hearing squeaks and getting wet, and establishing a generation of people who believe hardtop convertibles aren't "reliable" or aren't "quality vehicles". Since the vehicle is under warranty, expensive repairs may be required where simple maintenance was needed, and I'm sure there will be arguments about responsibility.
I don't yet understand how frequently this seal maintenance will be required, nor who will be doing this work, nor how much it will cost, nor how often a lack of seal maintenance will lead to problems. Without that understanding I cannot speculate on the significance of this issue. I do think that hardtop manufacturers need to get ahead of this by quickly understanding the potential for customer dissatisfaction and the requirements for maintenance, then communicating with everyone (salesmen to set expectations, service departments to provide appropriate service, engineers to update maintenance schedules, trade press to evangelize the need for maintenance and the ease of doing it) to set expectations for hardtop seal maintenance.
One thing I think I can predict - selling a VW Eos in North America to owners who aren't expecting to buy a $100 bottle of lubricant and spend an hour rubbing oil into seals, is a sure-fire way to annoy a large segment of Eos owners. The expectations of owners are very different today than they were even a few years ago.

Re: (big_sos)

I don't know that I see this weatherstrip issue as a design defect. I just look at it as normal maintenence...Convertible tops are one of the areas that require some special attention.

I agree that convertibles require extra maintenance, but I'm not quite ready to give VW a pass on this one yet. If we were just talking about wind noise and rattles, then I'd say sure, you just have to maintain the seals. But the fact that a number of people are reporting water leaks worries me.
A convertible shouldn't be designed so that it requires perfect seals to keep water out, like a watertight container. It should use a system more like the shingles, flashing and gutters on a house roof, so that water is naturally guided away from the interior. This way, as the car loosens up over time, it still won't leak.
It's quite possible this is the case with the Eos, and there is just some issue that needs to be fixed with the cars that leaked. Certainly most of the design appears to follow these principles.
However, while I haven't had a chance to do a close examination of the Eos seals since Michael's posting, I have seen one thing that concerns me in the photos (see below). That rolled seal is designed to act as a secondary seal, and also to act like a gutter, and guide water out the sides; that's good. So why is there a gap in it over the A pillar? I can't help but notice this is where a number of people have reported leaks. If that opening will allow water that gets through the initial seal to drain into the interior, I would consider that a design flaw, even if lubricating the seal can keep water from getting through it in the first place.
There have been some reports from the UK that leaking seals were replaced with a new type, though it wasn't clear if that might have been confusion on the part of the service advisors. Michael said these photos are of an early car, so I wonder if VW might have changed this in more recent production.

Re: (neweosowner)

I don't yet understand how frequently this seal maintenance will be required, nor who will be doing this work, nor how much it will cost, nor how often a lack of seal maintenance will lead to problems. Without that understanding I cannot speculate on the significance of this issue.

I don't think that VW knows either, although apparently they are starting to learn in some places.
The fact is, the owner's manual only vaguely mentions treatment and a part #, and add to that that dealerships are adding different markups to an expensive product. If the owner's manual even gave a treatment interval...Plus, they took the owner's manual out of plastic AFTER the sale was completed, and put it in the car. The treatment was never mentioned at any time, and not mentioned on VW.com for sure.
I really don't mind doing treatments-- I just feel the car should be ready until next treatment date when you get it new. That is how other fluids and greases etc. work. I was even prepared to bring mine in for a 500mile "break-in fluids" change, but the dealer said it wasn't needed.
William
PS. I have bought a small bottle of Krytox from 1stVWparts.com, and a big bottle from another vendor from other threads on Krytox. Will come next week.

Re: (flubber)

...I have seen one thing that concerns me in the photos (see below). That rolled seal is designed to act as a secondary seal, and also to act like a gutter, and guide water out the sides; that's good. So why is there a gap in it over the A pillar? I can't help but notice this is where a number of people have reported leaks. If that opening will allow water that gets through the initial seal to drain into the interior, I would consider that a design flaw...

Hi Joe:
I noticed that small opening in the front seal, but I don't have any pictures available of the forward edge of the roof panel that fits into the opening, so I can't speculate about why it is there.
I do know that Webasto - the vendor that supplies the roof - has been in the roof business for an awful long time. They have supplied the majority of sliding glass sunroofs (conventional sunroofs) to VW for the past 15 years, so, they are not beginners. I am going to guess that the gap you identify is there for a very specific purpose, and Webasto knows what that purpose is, even if we don't. In other words, I doubt if it is an oversight or a compromise.
Michael

Re: (neweosowner)

The expectations of owners are very different today than they were even a few years ago.

A very well articulated post Arylnn, and it very much mirrors my opinion on seal maintenance.
The majority of auto owners these days expect to hand over their keys to the service dept at scheduled periods, have the vehicle serviced and/or repaired as required, and perform (practically) flawlessly.
I think it is imperative that VW add roof seal maintenance to the scheduled maintenance on the Eos to ensure the vehicle does not develop a reputation of a "leaky bucket".
I agree with you that the enthusiasts here on the forum represent a small percentage of overall Eos owners. Most are probably out driving their cars right now, blissfully unaware of "seal maintenance" and the like.
If VW would add roof seal maintenance to the routine maintenance schedule on the Eos, these folks can continue their blissfull existence, with little or no worries.
Kevin

Re: (PanEuropean)

I do know that Webasto - the vendor that supplies the roof - has been in the roof business for an awful long time. They have supplied the majority of sliding glass sunroofs (conventional sunroofs) to VW for the past 15 years, so, they are not beginners.

Agreed; I believe they are the #1 sunroof maker in the world. They've also had several years to work on this design (since the Oasys Vision in 2002). And VW rightly brags of how much testing they did. All of that helps to inspire confidence.
But I'd still like to understand the mechanics of how it's possible for it to leak. And if it relies only on the integrity of the seals, I think there are better ways, even if only used as a backup to the seals. What can I say? I'm an engineer; I like to know how things work, and I like to make them work better.

Re: (flubber)

But I'd still like to understand the mechanics of how it's possible for it to leak.

As near I can figure out, there are two possible causes for roof leaks.95% of the time, leaks occur because the seals have become dry and lost their pliability. Lubricating them with the special lubricant solves this problem.5% of the time, a mechanical adjustment is needed to ensure that the windows properly position themselves (x, y, and z axis) against the seal that the upper edge of the window touches. There are alignment marks silk-screened onto the glass to make this easy to verify.
I'm not including 'one off' snags, such as a damaged seal, in this analysis. There have not been enough reports of one-off events to be significant.
Michael