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Just e-browsing at present. The Music Hall MMF-5.1 and the Rega P3-24 are both to my liking, but are high dollar tables for someone who lost their very well kept lp collection??

You raise a very good point, actually. I know some may disagree with me, but if most of your LP collection is going to be pulled together from second hand sources, I'd argue that it's very easy to quickly hit the point of diminishing returns by investing in a high-end table. You have to assume that at least 1/2 of what you're going to purchase will have been played on substandard equipment with extreme tracking forces, poorly maintained and/or cheap styli, etc. Purchasing an extremely detailed setup to play less-than-optimal source material may actually wind up being counterproductive.

So, if you plan on re-building your collection from vintage stores, etc., then I'd recommend sticking with a decent vintage deck and upgrading the cartridge (or minimally the stylus) as a good starting point. On the other hand, if you plan on purchasing new vinyl (180 gram new pressings / reissues, etc.) then getting a highly-capable new table is well worth the investment.

Another factor to consider is the availability of deep diving styli that cartridges like my Dynavector have. The shape is supposed to go deeper into the grove than any previously used cheaper stylus/cart did, playing virgin groves in worn records. Within reason, of course.

I agree that throwing cash at playing vinyl is a slippery slope. New vinyl is expensive and vintage disks were often a crapshoot with bad presses interspersed with good.

Really nice 180 gram reissues tend to be very limited editions. Once out of print, prices climb even further. Not a game for the faint of heart or the thin of wallet.

Tables, I use a P5 and it is very nice. I have not heard the P3 but it must be good. Regas work very well indeed and cost much less than the pretty boutique brands. The P9 is as good as it gets and I have paid less for cars, but the competition costs more like a house than a car.

Clark

Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears

Turntables

Doing a little research on turntables and I have come across two brands that do look nice. Rega and Music Hall, anyone knows if these two are real performers? thanks. ...

Both makes you mention are essentially no more than planks of wood with the motor components and arm bolted on. They offer little if any isolation from the environment until ( music Hall ) the model 5.1 which decouples the motor on one board from the playing chassis.
Granted the Rega Arm has become something of an industry standard , IMHO it is a pity that Rega did not apply the same ingenuity and work some magic on the player.
For my money a nice s/h Thorens will stand you in good stead without breaking the bank , and those do have proper isolating systems designed in.
They do require some initial care in setting up though as do all of these types eg Linn Ariston Systemdek Oracle etc.
I do not know what kind of $$$$$ you have in mind but should be able to get a clean TD 160 or 165 up and running for $ 500 or less.
There are accessory arm mounting boards for all kinds of arms including the Rega. The weak spot for Thorens was always the arms , a complex topic that I will not expand on at the moment.
If you want to go a little more upscale you will not go wrong with a used Linn LP12. Kind of the D130 of the turntable world , pretty bombproof , good sound and will last more or less forever. Classic looks too. Based on the original Thorens floating chassis design.
In the continental US if you can find a clean Oracle Alexandria that would be you in heaven. No idea of the current going rate for those.

I can add some hopefully helpful info here as I have been into vinyl since the mid 70's and never really stopped listening. I took a more serious angle about 4 years ago and now have a pretty nice setup (Yamaha PX2, Audio Technica OC9 MC, Pro-Ject Tube Box II MC Preamp, McIntosh C220 tube Preamp).

On the turntable front, I can offer a few suggestions that won't break the bank and will offer very good results. Remember you're buying used here and some of these are getting on 30 years old now. It's reasonable to expect a $150 service bill at some point for a good lube/belts if you are not going to do the maint yourself.

AR - the "XD" from the 80's is a very, very good turntable for the money. It's similar to the LP12 in concept. Expect to pay $200-300.

Harman Kardon - another decent LP12 clone is the T60/T65. Should be $200 or under.

Yamaha - they made several excellent tables. The linear PX2 and PX3 are unbelievable values. Parts are scarce but the belts are still available and this is all you will likely need. If the optical sensors go you can still use the table manually (as I have been doing for 3 years now). The PF800 is another excellent but more conventional table. The PX's are $300-500 and the PF $400-600.

Linn LP12 - the "standard" high-end table. Starts in the $600 range if you're lucky and goes up from here as the mods get applied.

Now, on the subject of records I can say with 100% certainty there are *plenty* of good records out there. I have been buying both new records from a local store as well as lots (groups) of records on ebay. I would say that only about 10% of the 300 or so records I've bought on ebay in the past year (avg $1/record) are truly junk. Most sellers toss out the garbage and only sell what it worth saving. Others have pointed out that if you invest in a really good cartridge, it will have a smaller stylus which gets "deeper" in the grooves than the cheap ones which means you are getting down past the damage and into the "fresh" part of the groove. Once you decide on a table, head over to needledoctor.com and be amazed at the selection of brand new cartridges that are available.

New 180 gram records are becoming more numerous by the day and average about $20. Search "180 lp" on ebay or head to musicdirect.com. This isn't a passing fad - they are coming back strong.

Bottom line advice:

1) Getting a really good table is arguably more imporant than the cartridge. A good table will allow any cartridge to perform at its best. A mediocre table will never allow you to hear what even a mid-line cartridge can do. Good suspension/isolation is critical if you want to listen loud.

All interesting observations and comments, thanks. Do all MC cartriages require a phono preamp before the system preamp? I have a Crown Straight Line Two (w/o owners manual) and it seems to have screwdriver adjusted pots at the phono inputs?? For now I am leaning towards the Music Hall MMF-5.1, decent table and arm? isolation and suspension? Would this table respond well to either magnetic or coil type cartriages? I have favored vinyl as a source at a time when my cd deck could not compete with my turntable sonically. That being said it wasn't probably a fair match up due to my cd deck being a few rungs down the food chain when compared to the turntable. Do todays cd decks rival top flight turntables? thanks for your replies And for the thoughtful vintage tt recommendations, they no doubt, once brought up to specs would be good performers.

Music Hall

As I mentioned and as you can see from the pic , the top plate of the plinth is isolated from the bottom by sorbothane rubber bushes however the lid seems to be mounted to the top plate and since the lid is a very distinct resonator it will transmit albeit small resonances directly to the arm.
The Rega suffers from this dreadfully.
I checked the price of these and it seems to be almost $1000. You can do much better.
PS I have worked at one time or another for Linn , Ariston , Source.
I did a similar budget design for Ariston that had the motor and the lid plus the rubbery feet on the top plate but the audio components were all mounted
on the lower plate ie bearing and platter , arm plate / arm , and that whole assembly was isolated by a very lossy rubber compound.
It was under £200 at the time

Awwww, c'mon - you don't really want to start that war here do you? Digital vs. analog? You could fill up an entire forum with what's been written on that subject alone.

FWIW, my short answer is without a doubt. The problem is that many "audiophiles" still to this day seem all too happy to shell out insane cash on an exotic looking, TOTL turntable, but are strangely unwilling to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a CD player. It's probably a result of the initial marketing buzz around digital that indicated that the most entry level CD player would outshine your turntable (absolutely not true, of course) that got people thinking that the cheapest CD player would suffice, and no benefit could be yielded from a higher quality component (also absolutely not true.)

I'm still a fan of vinyl, and there are those occasions when everything comes together absolutely perfectly and the result is purely musical, but IMHO well-done digital can outshine it far more often than not. In short, if I were re-building a system and music collection from scratch (as I understand you are) I'd put far more focus and cash on obtaining the best CD player I could, and an analog setup would honestly be a secondary consideration.

They offer little if any isolation from the environment until ( music Hall ) the model 5.1 which decouples the motor on one board from the playing chassis.
For my money a nice s/h Thorens will stand you in good stead without breaking the bank , and those do have proper isolating systems designed in.
They do require some initial care in setting up though as do all of these types eg Linn Ariston Systemdek Oracle etc.
I do not know what kind of $$$$$ you have in mind but should be able to get a clean TD 160 or 165 up and running for $ 500 or less..

Earlier in this thread I had recommended the Thorens TD -160/5 , but later deleted as it seemed to be falling on deaf ears...
Mac is prolly the most TT experienced user here and his recommendations usually carry a lot of weight with me..

The Pioneer Pl-530 that I bought (despite Macs concerns) has the double suspended system for isolation and is truly a bargain if you are looking for an automatic ....are you looking for manual or auto ? dont recall reading which you want or even BD vs. DD ?

the PL-530

Double float system: The PL-530 Has a standard wood press board plinth base . And a steel sub- chassis. The tone arm connects to the subchassis. The subchassis is suspended from the plinth, along with the tone arm. All vibrations are absorbed twice, before they have a chance to spoil the record's tonal quality.

[quote=SEAWOLF97;254401]Earlier in this thread I had recommended the Thorens TD -160/5 , but later deleted as it seemed to be falling on deaf ears...
Seawolf, All the recommendations are useful and I do appreciate them all. Since I cannot afford to buy a turntable at this time, they are all in play. Just trying to get some info from those who are knowledgeable and don't mind sharing. I would prefer a manual arm first, semi second, etc. Don't know alot about Thorens, so I'll be doing a bit of research, to become more familiar.

Turntable is in excellent condition. It was a part of an estate sale of a friend of mine. Beautiful hardwood and glass case and cover. I think its walnut.
It was a working turntable when boxed up. I only removed it from the box to clean it and photograph it. I would keep it but I am not an audio buff, and my
DVD's work fine to my undiscerning ear. I do believe from my research that this is a very desirable turntable to collectors and those who dig vinyl sound.
I just don't hear that well anymore.