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Though some may think that Julliard's standards are a little ridiculous, I hope I am lucky enough to go there, but if I am not able to go there, and this is more than likely because only the best of the best get in, then I do have a question. I was wondering that a non-student could still have access to their library of musical collections and their hall of steinway pianos?

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about Juilliard, except for having been in chamber rehearsals there from time to time.

Well, I didn't know they had a "hall of Steinway pianos," but I would assume you'd have to be a student there to access them.

As for the library collections, many are quite rare and valuable (including some newsworthy additions in just the last few years). It would seem unfair not to allow dedicated musicians and scholars access to them.

Yes, that is what I was wondering. I don't think they actually have a hall of steinway pianos, but they certainly have a collection of around two hundred odd something. I heard that they have very rare music documentaries in their though. I was just wondering because one day I would certainly love the check them out if I can.

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

If they do have a "hall of Steinway pianos", they would be probably be out-of-tune and massively under-regulated.

If you're in NY, the public music library (performing arts) is supposed to be top-notch. Haven't been there, but having been to the Juilliard library once or twice, I imagine the public library can only be better.

If it is Julliard, I am sure at least a hundred of them are in tune if not all of them. If that is a high end college, then I am sure students go to public halls to practice on these Steinway's and it would only make sense to keep them in tune.

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

Just my $0.02,When I went there for a few lessons it was difficult to just get past the security guards unless you are a student with an ID card. Someone in the building has to tell them to let you in (same at MSM). I would highly doubt they would give non-Juilliard people access to their pianos or their library collections. Thats some pricey stuff they've got in there.

I'll bet with the right credentials or even just a supportive letter from a respected musician, you could get access to the library materials. You may have to wear gloves to page through them, though. And you'd better have a convincing reason to want to see them...a narrower focus than "just because they're awesome."

I am making an assumption (perhaps naive) that libraries are proud of the materials entrusted to them and want to see them (respectfully) used. That's a basic tenet of the concept of a library. I remember as a young student thumbing through Charles Ives' manuscripts at Yale University. No problem, but I can no longer remember how I got access.

ChibiSF
Full Member
Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 222
Loc: Long Island, New York

Originally Posted By: TylerNB

Though some may think that Julliard's standards are a little ridiculous, I hope I am lucky enough to go there, but if I am not able to go there, and this is more than likely because only the best of the best get in, then I do have a question. I was wondering that a non-student could still have access to their library of musical collections and their hall of steinway pianos?

A friend of mine is a student there. I'll ask him next time I see him, or whenever he pops up on Facebook chat.

If it is Julliard, I am sure at least a hundred of them are in tune if not all of them. If that is a high end college, then I am sure students go to public halls to practice on these Steinway's and it would only make sense to keep them in tune.

yeah... you'd be surprised. i'm not a student there, only taking some lowly evening division classes, but many of the pianos in the rooms are grossly underregulated. Tuning-wise they're actually not terrible, better than you'd expect from pianos that get played like 10 hours a day.

I didn't go to a music school, but the university I went to, also had mostly steinways in their practice rooms anyway. They're also somewhat out-of-tune and grossly underregulated. The grad school I went to, again a non-music school, had all Steinways. They don't get played much so regulation-wise they're actually not bad.

I imagine Steinways are pretty much par for most colleges. But it's not like they're the be-all and end-alls anyway.

That is Funny WhoDwaldi. It really is. Of course I have a good reason why I would want to view the scores and the other dedicated music works of the Juliard library. I want to learn more than ever and be able to study this stuff up close. And if they have a piano in the library that I can have access to, you can bet your socks that I will be on it.

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

The practice pianos are indeed Steinways, and they are indeed worn out. Juilliard has a staff of dedicated technicians who try to keep up with the needs of the instruments, which are rebuilt every so many years. During peak hours, it can be difficult to get a room. Non-students are not permitted to practice at the school. The library does have a collection of rare manuscripts, which are on rotating display in a glass case. The collection can actually be accessed online at www.juilliardmanuscriptcollection.org. New York Public Library for the Performing Arts is just across the street and is open to the general public.

"Materials circulate only to current Juilliard School students and faculty members. Outside users may make appointments to view materials during business hours (Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.) that are unique to Juilliard's collection."

I want to learn more than ever and be able to study this stuff up close. And if they have a piano in the library that I can have access to, you can bet your socks that I will be on it.

That is an issue with music libraries: why, oh why are there no keyboards to play the scores? And you can't always take materials to a practice room. I read somewhere that the Library of Congress has keyboards and headphones for such study.

I want to learn more than ever and be able to study this stuff up close. And if they have a piano in the library that I can have access to, you can bet your socks that I will be on it.

That is an issue with music libraries: why, oh why are there no keyboards to play the scores?

I believe that The New York Public Performing Arts Library Lingyis cited above has an electronic keyboard in one of the reading rooms for visitors to use to play scores. It is a wonderful library, and is basically located across the street from Juilliard.

As for the library collections, many are quite rare and valuable (including some newsworthy additions in just the last few years). It would seem unfair not to allow dedicated musicians and scholars access to them.

"The Juilliard Manuscript Collection" is available for viewing via the web:

With the purchase of the Fazioli – and even if Juilliard buys the Yamaha as well – Juilliard remains an all-Steinway school, because by that definition, 90 per cent of all instruments owned by the institution must be designed by Steinway. Juilliard owns about 260 Steinways.

stores
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there

Originally Posted By: sophial

Originally Posted By: stores

Juilliard, isn't an all Steinway school any longer, by the way.

From an article in the Globe and Mail:

With the purchase of the Fazioli – and even if Juilliard buys the Yamaha as well – Juilliard remains an all-Steinway school, because by that definition, 90 per cent of all instruments owned by the institution must be designed by Steinway. Juilliard owns about 260 Steinways.

Apparently, ALL doesn't mean ALL to some. Last I checked 90% and ALL do not equate.

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"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

Not at all ridiculous. The audition requirements are set and very democratic: a WTC piece, a complete Classical Era sonata, a substantial Romantic Era piece, two concert etudes, and an impressive piece from a different era than the above (this would typically be a 20th cent. work). It's straightforward: if you can play this repertoire absolutely note perfect and from memory and with plenty of pizzaz, you've got a chance to get in.

Trust me Gyro, if I can develop my talent that well, then you can bet that I will definently go for it. I am sure there are other schools that are still good in the music arts. The thing that does worry me, is that since I am pretty much best at the arts, which is a competitive field, I am afraid I will not get a job in that field.

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

"The School was named for Augustus Juilliard, a wealthy textile merchant whose bequest was used to establish the Juilliard Graduate School in 1924. In 1926, it merged with the Institute for Musical Art to become the Juilliard School of Music. With the additions of a Dance Division in 1951 and Drama Division in 1968, the name was shortened to The Juilliard School." (from their website)

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

You don't need to get into Juilliard in order to find a career in the arts.

And to be blatantly honest, you gotta be pretty damn talented and already playing collegiate material well to get in. There's nothing ridiculous about it. It's just the standard for the environment and learning curve.

Having a job in the arts is more about what kind of job you want and how enterprising you are than where you went to school.

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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

This is true. I practice a lot, but I am in in the ninth grade, and I just started piano last year. Even with a big passion, can I make it into Juilliard or another good music college with that kind of experience?

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

It depends on what kind of experience you make for yourself over the next four years. You could really improve a ton with the right kind of practice and passion, and it sounds like you've got the passion. I'd say go for it - why not? Most people at Juilliard have been playing for many more years, but ultimately it's the skill that matters, not the number of years. And whether you get in or not, or even audition, why not try to be the best that you can be anyway?

I really empathize with you, because I started piano in 6th grade and also had dreams to be a major concert pianist, even though I was relatively late to the game. I certainly had a ton of passion and practiced a lot. I decided in the end not to audition for Juilliard (because I didn't have the right repertoire yet), but ended up going to the University of Michigan instead and got a terrific education. The faculty there is amazing.

Now I'm getting ready for a PhD in musicology, which in the end actually suits me much more than being a concert pianist. I love it and am already making a name for myself. Kreisler's right in that the music business is really a huge field, and there's soooo much you can do with it. When I was in high school, I thought being a concert pianist was the only option, but the experience of being in music school and pursuing my own projects really opened my eyes up to so many new possibilities.

But go for Juilliard to be a concert pianist, if that's what you want - again, what matters is the experience you make for yourself over the next four years, not the fact that you started last year!

This is true. I practice a lot, but I am in in the ninth grade, and I just started piano last year. Even with a big passion, can I make it into Juilliard or another good music college with that kind of experience?

What kind of experience? You have to get some kind of experience before talking about having "that kind" of experience.

As much as I'd like to de-emphasize technique, it's probably about the only thing that's objective and easy to evaluate.

I'm saying this because I went to a concert in which a recent Juilliard grad performed the Rach 2. Technically, I think she hit the vast majority of the notes (except for notably missing a note in the 3rd chord of the piece). But she ignored the orchestra. Aside from almost always coming in early, at one point in the 3rd movement, she must have been about 2 beats ahead of the orchestra, for about 1 minute (!!) as the conductor kept signalling her, and since I sat in first row, I heard him counting out the beat for her... but she was in her own little world. The conductor was very frustrusted and ended up shaking his head...

And her phrasing was... monotonous to put it nicely.

Without a doubt, many of us here on pianoworld can play better than she does (with practice). So I thought, if she could get in, it's probably mostly because of her technique, less so her musicianship.

I suppose it says something about how musicianship is supposed to improved with age if Juilliard was willing to take a chance on her.

On the other hand, 2 teachers I've talked to have mentioned how the quality of piano students, including Juilliard, has been steadily going downhill in the past two decades. So maybe those who got into Juilliard in the 2000s won't get in in the 1960s.

So I guess I'm trying to say that, if you work hard, you do have a chance! In the 1960s, I suppose if you're still working on Fur Elise now, there's none. Today, if you get your technique up, and play more musically than most, you might be that lucky 5% or so.

I wish I have more data points. I know a couple string students at Juilliard and while one of them is top-notch, I'm surprised by the very poor sightreading skill of the other. Don't know any pianists though.

And by the way the top-notch one is thinking of transferring out to a non-conservatory or doing a joint-program. Looks like this person is also top-notch enough to realize the realities of the world.

When I refer to experience, I mean musical experience. You experience new things in music a lot of the time and you usually learn from them, no?

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

stores
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there

Originally Posted By: TylerNB

When I refer to experience, I mean musical experience. You experience new things in music a lot of the time and you usually learn from them, no?

I'm sure Bruce fully understands. What he's asking is WHAT experience (do you have?) and the answer is relatively none. Thus his statement that "You have to get some kind of experience before talking about having "that kind" of experience."

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"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

And by the way the top-notch one is thinking of transferring out to a non-conservatory or doing a joint-program. Looks like this person is also top-notch enough to realize the realities of the world.

My 16-year-old son dreams of going to a conservatory when he graduates from high school. His violin teacher supports this idea, but his youth orchestra conductor no longer advises his students to do this because of the lack of job opportunities for classical musicians today. I am unsure what to tell my son. I'm inclined to tell him to follow his passion. I reason that, if necessary, he can always give violin lessons.

On the other hand, we also know a young woman who just graduated from college with a degree in music who is already going back to school to become a nurse. It's very discouraging, but I hate for my son to give up on his dreams. I hope that Kreisler is right and that having a job in the arts is more about how enterprising you are.

And by the way the top-notch one is thinking of transferring out to a non-conservatory or doing a joint-program. Looks like this person is also top-notch enough to realize the realities of the world.

My 16-year-old son dreams of going to a conservatory when he graduates from high school. His violin teacher supports this idea, but his youth orchestra conductor no longer advises his students to do this because of the lack of job opportunities for classical musicians today

A few months ago, I interviewed for admission to a PhD program in musicology. The first question they asked me (and every other applicant) was: "Given the huge emotional commitment, financial commitment, and educational commitment of pursuing a PhD in music, and given the strong likelihood that, in the end, it might not even get you a job, why would you possibly want to do this to yourself?" It's a hard question!

But as long as communities such as our exist - as long as a Evgeny Kissin can still sell-out Carnegie Hall and come back for 10 curtain calls - there will be jobs for classical musicians. There may not be jobs for all classical musicians, but there will be jobs and demand for some, and that's justification enough for someone who's incredibly passionate about music to pursue this career. Many people never find their passion - they sit in a cubicle, as the cliché goes, and count the minutes until the day is over. To have found a job that you really love doing is such a blessing, that it would seem almost foolish to throw it away in exchange for something boring but lucrative, wouldn't it?

stores
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there

Originally Posted By: Lingyis

Originally Posted By: pianojerome

To have found a job that you really love doing is such a blessing, that it would seem almost foolish to throw it away in exchange for something boring but lucrative, wouldn't it?

Yeah, but what if even the musical job in the end isn't something you love doing? There's no guarantee.

Then why would you be there? If it's not your passion...and I don't mean "ohhhh piano is my passion...I love it soooo much"...I mean you live, eat, breathe, dream, think music and the piano. Your entire life revolves around music and the piano. The appointments you make for the week are scheduled AROUND practice time...not the other way round. It's not a hobby. It's not something where you're sitting around one day and find yourself thinking..."hey, I could maybe make money doing this." It's all-consuming. There is no such thing as boredom (God I hate when I hear "I'm bored with this or that piece)...it's a CONSTANT learning process and the fire TO continue learning isn't one that wavers...ever.

_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

To have found a job that you really love doing is such a blessing, that it would seem almost foolish to throw it away in exchange for something boring but lucrative, wouldn't it?

Yeah, but what if even the musical job in the end isn't something you love doing? There's no guarantee.

Then why would you be there? If it's not your passion...and I don't mean "ohhhh piano is my passion...I love it soooo much"...I mean you live, eat, breathe, dream, think music and the piano. Your entire life revolves around music and the piano. The appointments you make for the week are scheduled AROUND practice time...not the other way round. It's not a hobby. It's not something where you're sitting around one day and find yourself thinking..."hey, I could maybe make money doing this." It's all-consuming. There is no such thing as boredom (God I hate when I hear "I'm bored with this or that piece)...it's a CONSTANT learning process and the fire TO continue learning isn't one that wavers...ever.

Okay, I feel we're going around in a circle.

I'm trying to say what's practical for most people. You're saying passion trumps practical concerns. Which is fine, because in America, it's not like a musician is going to starve to death.

I just don't think it's the proper advice to give to young people, especially when the target is, in my opinion, a minority.

Another thing that would deter me personally from Juilliard is the cut-throat competition there. When I talked to one Juilliard graduate pianist, he said that one of his classmates (who had gotten the one full-ride scholarship that the school gives out per year, and as such was...not liked well) went into a practice room and began to play, only to see his fingers gushing blood because of the razor blades that had been stuck in between the keys...

Another thing that would deter me personally from Juilliard is the cut-throat competition there. When I talked to one Juilliard graduate pianist, he said that one of his classmates (who had gotten the one full-ride scholarship that the school gives out per year, and as such was...not liked well) went into a practice room and began to play, only to see his fingers gushing blood because of the razor blades that had been stuck in between the keys...

Another thing that would deter me personally from Juilliard is the cut-throat competition there. When I talked to one Juilliard graduate pianist, he said that one of his classmates (who had gotten the one full-ride scholarship that the school gives out per year, and as such was...not liked well) went into a practice room and began to play, only to see his fingers gushing blood because of the razor blades that had been stuck in between the keys...

... is that an urban legend?

That story's been around for at least 15 years. I've heard it told so many times in so many different ways by so many different people (none of them with firsthand experience) that I seriously doubt it's true.

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

Pogorelich.
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4581
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow

Originally Posted By: Lingyis

I just don't think it's the proper advice to give to young people, especially when the target is, in my opinion, a minority.

And it's great advice to say something like, "Just get a job that makes money, spend half of your life in an office and hating it". Please. It's not the proper advice to give to young people when you say, "you should do what you love"? How not?

Another thing that would deter me personally from Juilliard is the cut-throat competition there. When I talked to one Juilliard graduate pianist, he said that one of his classmates (who had gotten the one full-ride scholarship that the school gives out per year, and as such was...not liked well) went into a practice room and began to play, only to see his fingers gushing blood because of the razor blades that had been stuck in between the keys...

I have nothing of value to add about Juilliard, as I know next to nothing about the school aside from what I read on this forum, but I thought I'd come out from lurking because the topic of people pursuing a career they love vs. what's practical is always of great interest to me just because of my own recent experiences.

I think that advising young people to major in/pursue "something you love" is not bad advice at all, with the caveat that I think some to many young people go into music figuring they love music, but with no real idea of what being a working music professional is like, and what is involved and required of them. I majored in music because I love music, and ended up hating life because I just didn't have it in me to work that hard and handle the different difficulties of being self-employed and having my job be so time and self consuming. So if an aspiring music major goes in seeing the big picture of the professional music world and recognizes what it will be like, and they're still all about it and wouldn't dream of doing anything else, then yes, those people should pursue what they love. I just don't think it's the right choice for everyone, even some who would say they love music. (And I don't think pursuing something you hate or have little interest in just because it will pay the bills is a good option for anyone, but those certainly aren't the only two options.) Just my 2 cents.

I think that advising young people to major in/pursue "something you love" is not bad advice at all, with the caveat that I think some to many young people go into music figuring they love music, but with no real idea of what being a working music professional is like, and what is involved and required of them.

I just don't think it's the proper advice to give to young people, especially when the target is, in my opinion, a minority.

And it's great advice to say something like, "Just get a job that makes money, spend half of your life in an office and hating it". Please. It's not the proper advice to give to young people when you say, "you should do what you love"? How not?

I didn't say pick something you hate. For instance, in college, I wanted to do string theory, but realizing the dwindling funding for theoretical physicists, ended up doing computational biochemistry instead in grad school. (The fields are more closely related than you'd think)

So that part worked out. But what I wasn't prepared, was how grad school and academia was totally different from what I had in mind. It would have been nice if I had received better advice. But at least all's well that end's well--I grinded out my degree and that part is over with, even if it took me longer than I had in mind, and did quantitative finance afterwards (and again, not as farfetched as you'd think).

I would also recommend people do things that they're interested in--but at the same time, you need to make them aware of the consequences. For me, I'm fortunate my studies were heavily math and computer science related. But in a different field, you might not be so fortunate, and that's what young people should be made aware of.

If you have a gift and music is your overriding passion, then go ahead, by all means--that's I mean by "the targeted minority". Your "competitive advantage" is that much higher. For the rest of us, likely most of us, it's important to explore your interests (as long as it's the US system we're talking about).

Those who are currently in music should realize that you are all quite blessed. I have great admiration for you all. Just keep in mind that many are not necessarily as gifted.

pianoloverus
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Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: Pogorelich

And it's great advice to say something like, "Just get a job that makes money, spend half of your life in an office and hating it". Please. It's not the proper advice to give to young people when you say, "you should do what you love"? How not?

Why these threads pop up every few months to where people say you can only choose "to be in an office hating your job" vs "being a musician and struggling" for the rest of your life?

Guess what, you can have an office job that's very rewarding and you can be a musician that plays concerts and be appreciated by tons of people. Takes a lot of hard work but I think it is a good balance.

stores
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there

Originally Posted By: Kreisler

Originally Posted By: Lingyis

Originally Posted By: survivordan

Another thing that would deter me personally from Juilliard is the cut-throat competition there. When I talked to one Juilliard graduate pianist, he said that one of his classmates (who had gotten the one full-ride scholarship that the school gives out per year, and as such was...not liked well) went into a practice room and began to play, only to see his fingers gushing blood because of the razor blades that had been stuck in between the keys...

... is that an urban legend?

That story's been around for at least 15 years. I've heard it told so many times in so many different ways by so many different people (none of them with firsthand experience) that I seriously doubt it's true.

+1 I've heard this in many variations as well. There's nothing to it...nothing.

_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

Why these threads pop up every few months to where people say you can only choose "to be in an office hating your job" vs "being a musician and struggling" for the rest of your life?

Guess what, you can have an office job that's very rewarding and you can be a musician that plays concerts and be appreciated by tons of people. Takes a lot of hard work but I think it is a good balance.

Absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest that office jobs are all boring -- which is why I called it a "cliché". There are many wonderful jobs outside music.

My point was just that not everyone does find a career that they're passionate about, and as long as one has found such a strong passion for music, it is worthwhile trying to make it one's career. As Kreisler said so well, there are so many jobs in music, not just being a Evgeny Kissin, and often times passionate musicians will find ways to create more or less traditional job opportunities for themselves.

Why these threads pop up every few months to where people say you can only choose "to be in an office hating your job" vs "being a musician and struggling" for the rest of your life?

Guess what, you can have an office job that's very rewarding and you can be a musician that plays concerts and be appreciated by tons of people. Takes a lot of hard work but I think it is a good balance.

Absolutely. I didn't mean to suggest that office jobs are all boring -- which is why I called it a "cliché". There are many wonderful jobs outside music.

My point was just that not everyone does find a career that they're passionate about, and as long as one has found such a strong passion for music, it is worthwhile trying to make it one's career. As Kreisler said so well, there are so many jobs in music, not just being a Evgeny Kissin, and often times passionate musicians will find ways to create more or less traditional job opportunities for themselves.

I think the ugly truth is that, in the US at least, the majority of people do not like their job, and many people really hate their work. But you gotta live...

And don't I remember reading that most non-piano Juilliard students end up in a career not related to music? And the reason it's limited to non-piano is because they don't have the records on the piano students, so it may be true of them, also, but they just don't know.

Well, yes, you guys are all right. And I still have a few years of my life to decide if such a thing is the job for me. But trust me, I am not the kind that can work factory lines or work in a cubicle for the rest of my life. For some people it is sports, and for some, it is art, and for some like me and many others on this site I am sure, it is music. Though, for the younger ones here like myself, like many have said, once we find out the demands of that field, we may not be necessarily interested in it anymore. But the main thing is, we have only one life here on this earth, and we have to make the most of it. Now I go by Christian standards, and if I don't know how many here believe in Christ Jesus, but I personally do, and he made us all unique. He gave us individual personalities and gifts to serve him while on this earth. Now I have always considered myself gifted in the arts such as music and drawing, though over the course of the years, I have geared more toward music than drawing though I do still draw. But I would rather be living a RICH LIFE filled with fulfillment rather than one that just makes me want to jump off a bridge. I practice everyday, and I work toward my goals, so therefore I am competitive in music. I try my best to get better so I can play better and funner things, and so on and so forth. But you know, my mom told me, I have another 3 years of my life to decide what I am going to do for my life. And with God's guidance and the people he set in my life to help guide me, I am sure I can get there.

I know you all aren't trying to discourage me from pursuing a career and music, and I am glad you understand. Yes, it is competitive, and I understand that, my mom stated that up front to me. But she never stopped my brother from pursuing what he was passionate about as a career and she said she won't stop me either.

There is a song by Jon Bon Jovi, I don't know how many of you have heard of him but I am sure a good portion have. He wrote a song called "It's My Life" and some particular lyrics that always seemed to touch me is "it's now or never" and another "I don't want be just a face in the crowd, your gonna hear my voice when I shout it out loud". And that is very inspiring and moving to me.

I believe that God has a plan for me though, and the people that he set before me in my life will guide me on the right path.

I think it would help me if you guys could find me a description of all the careers related to piano. If I had something like that and maybe an idea of what all the career options for a pianist are, then maybe that will give me some insight?

Edited by TylerNB (04/07/1108:12 AM)

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Currently Working On:Chopin Waltz in B Minor (Finished)Rondo Alla Turca - Mozart (Finished) Coming up:Phantom of the Opera?Certainly more Chopin(Valses and Mazurkas, maybe even a Prelude)And yet another Bach piece

I think it would help me if you guys could find me a description of all the careers related to piano. If I had something like that and maybe an idea of what all the career options for a pianist are, then maybe that will give me some insight?

How about a piano tuner? I am not sure if one even needs to finish high school to join a piano tuning school.

A successful piano tuner makes tons of money. Like my piano tuner, he does not take anybody as a customer. He showed me his black list people. He assigns customer number to each of his customer and he assigns specific code for the trouble maker customers so that it will be easy for him to discern them when they call him for an appointment.

None of the excellent piano tuners I have used over the past few years earns "tons of money." I guess, then, by your definition, they are not successful.

They may have chosen not to do more than so many tunings a day, or to charge a relatively low fee to make themselves accessible. But a highly industrious piano tuner who tunes, say five or ten pianos a day at $100 each, for 50 weeks a year, that's quite a bit of money, is it not?

None of the excellent piano tuners I have used over the past few years earns "tons of money." I guess, then, by your definition, they are not successful.

They may have chosen not to do more than so many tunings a day, or to charge a relatively low fee to make themselves accessible. But a highly industrious piano tuner who tunes, say five or ten pianos a day at $100 each, for 50 weeks a year, that's quite a bit of money, is it not?

I don't know where you get the idea that a "good" tuner can tune as many as ten pianos a day, given that all the "good" tuners I have had have never spent less than two hours tuning my piano - which, by the way, is a piano that is in good condition, being tuned three or four times a year.

Even were he to do a good tuning in an hour and a half, even five tunings would take seven and a half hours, and, since no five clients live next door to each other, add in travel time and maybe a few minutes for a lunch break, how much time do you have to spend just to tune five pianos well? I would think that five pianos a day would be a maximum for most conscientious tuners.

I don't think that most piano tuners would have so large a clientele list that they could count on having even a minimum of five pianos to tune daily, every working day of the year. Given a year of 50 weeks, five pianos a day, five days a week and even if all of a given tuner's clients had a tuning twice a year (which most don't), for a tuner to be employed as you suggest, he would have to have over six hundred clients. No tuner I have ever known has had that many clients nor is so solidly booked. Otherwise, when calling for an appointment I'd get a message to the effect that my tuner could come Tuesday afternoon from 2:00 to 3:30 in four month's time.

Since these tuners are, for the most part, self-employed (excepting those who work for dealerships where the dealership take a percentage of their fee), they don't have company medical, dental, eye care benefits, sick leave with pay and retirement plans. If they are funding their own care and maintenance, much of their disposable income goes into that maintenance.

However, I am still very much in doubt about their making "tons of money" tuning as many as ten pianos a day. It just doesn't add up.

I think it would help me if you guys could find me a description of all the careers related to piano. If I had something like that and maybe an idea of what all the career options for a pianist are, then maybe that will give me some insight?

How about a piano tuner? I am not sure if one even needs to finish high school to join a piano tuning school.

I do hope a piano technician comes in here and sets the record straight. I thought you needed to understand at the very least college level Physics to be able to go to piano tech school.

I think it would help me if you guys could find me a description of all the careers related to piano. If I had something like that and maybe an idea of what all the career options for a pianist are, then maybe that will give me some insight?

How about a piano tuner? I am not sure if one even needs to finish high school to join a piano tuning school.

I do hope a piano technician comes in here and sets the record straight. I thought you needed to understand at the very least college level Physics to be able to go to piano tech school.

These are the requirements to get into Piano Tuning School in Chicago.

The applicant must:

have a high school diploma, GED, or home school equivalencyhave full manual dexterity and be able to lift a significant weight (e.g. grand action with keys), and be able to move around with it without aidbe capable of standing at and moving around a piano for many hours at a timehave the full capacity to complete the entire curriculum as depicted, with the goal of achieving a Certificate from CSPT in the required time spanhave a current tetanus shotcomplete an Application process, including the Self-Evaluation, Piano Keyboard Music Assessment, and interviews

None of the excellent piano tuners I have used over the past few years earns "tons of money." I guess, then, by your definition, they are not successful.

They may have chosen not to do more than so many tunings a day, or to charge a relatively low fee to make themselves accessible. But a highly industrious piano tuner who tunes, say five or ten pianos a day at $100 each, for 50 weeks a year, that's quite a bit of money, is it not?

I don't know where you get the idea that a "good" tuner can tune as many as ten pianos a day, given that all the "good" tuners I have had have never spent less than two hours tuning my piano - which, by the way, is a piano that is in good condition, being tuned three or four times a year.

Even were he to do a good tuning in an hour and a half, even five tunings would take seven and a half hours, and, since no five clients live next door to each other, add in travel time and maybe a few minutes for a lunch break, how much time do you have to spend just to tune five pianos well? I would think that five pianos a day would be a maximum for most conscientious tuners.

I don't think that most piano tuners would have so large a clientele list that they could count on having even a minimum of five pianos to tune daily, every working day of the year. Given a year of 50 weeks, five pianos a day, five days a week and even if all of a given tuner's clients had a tuning twice a year (which most don't), for a tuner to be employed as you suggest, he would have to have over six hundred clients. No tuner I have ever known has had that many clients nor is so solidly booked. Otherwise, when calling for an appointment I'd get a message to the effect that my tuner could come Tuesday afternoon from 2:00 to 3:30 in four month's time.

Since these tuners are, for the most part, self-employed (excepting those who work for dealerships where the dealership take a percentage of their fee), they don't have company medical, dental, eye care benefits, sick leave with pay and retirement plans. If they are funding their own care and maintenance, much of their disposable income goes into that maintenance.

However, I am still very much in doubt about their making "tons of money" tuning as many as ten pianos a day. It just doesn't add up.

Making tons of money relatives to only having high school education. If one does not go to college and does not want to work in a cube (boring job), piano tuning is a cleaner job than many other labor jobs (plumbing, car mechanic etc). For people with high school education, there are not so many piano related job that will pay more than tuning piano. I think piano tuning is perfect for people who want to have flexible schedule.

If per tuning is $100, 3 tunings a day, and work 5 days per week. The total income is $100 x 3 x 5 x 4 = $6,000 per month. It means $72K per year. Not bad for a person without college education.

@Bruce, My piano tuner has big list of clients, he even does not take people who he does not like. I have to make appointment like a month in advance. Apparently, the piano tuning market in your area is not as high as in the Chicago area.

Earnings and BenefitsPiano and organ tuners earn a median hourly rate of $13.47, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Earnings are usually higher in urban areas. Benefits for employed tuners and technicians vary according to the size of the business. Benefits may include paid holidays and vacations, health insurance, and pension plans. Those who have their own businesses must provide their own benefits.

Apparently, he does not have too many choices then.He wants a piano related job, but he cannot play piano well so that he cannot teach or play for public. Tuning piano does not pay much (according to the study).....So I do not have any idea what kind of piano related job....selling piano?

Earnings and BenefitsPiano and organ tuners earn a median hourly rate of $13.47, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Earnings are usually higher in urban areas. Benefits for employed tuners and technicians vary according to the size of the business. Benefits may include paid holidays and vacations, health insurance, and pension plans. Those who have their own businesses must provide their own benefits.

I think that information may be out-of-date, although when I go the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics website, I don't find a precise number for piano and organ tuners as a separate category of worker. The closest I find is this aggregate information. The dollars shown are a bit higher, but still not great.

While I do think that it was a really bad insult, I also think it plays important role in this context - I wouldn't say that being a piano tuner is really a music-related job anymore than making test-tubes would make one a chemist. They're involved and vital, but it's not the same.

Of course, one can (and many I know do) do both.

That said, it really would have done some good to have said it with a bit more tact.

Lingyis, as you may have made out from my posts, I'm a grad student at a very decent University. I'm fairly confident (with some hard work of course) that I'll be successful in my field. However, I might enroll myself in a piano technician course sometime after I'm done with my PhD. I would also consider running a piano dealership (though that would be even more into the future). I might have considered these options quite seriously as viable career options even if I didn't have a PhD simply because I love being with pianos. I'm fairly certain that I can make a living from it if I set my mind to it. Attribute this to my being young (enough) with a fairly positive view of the world and the opportunities it has in store for people like me. In fact, if I have a University professor position by then and if I make enough money from this, I might even give up my teaching job. If you look at the faculty list in the piano tuning school that RS linked us to, you will find the profile of a man who after doing an engineering degree went on to become a piano tech. He is now a grad student in Acoustics at Penn State University. People do stuff.. stuff that's interesting and rewarding to them (not necessarily in a monetary sense). Its also almost always these people that come up with ideas and inventions that make a huge difference in human lives.

Let me ask you this: Is being a banker something that's worth striving for in life?

People do stuff.. stuff that's interesting and rewarding to them (not necessarily in a monetary sense). Its also almost always these people that come up with ideas and inventions that make a huge difference in human lives.

I'm not the most articulate person; made even more difficult is that I've gone between being idealistic and practical. But to start painting picture of my "philosophy" (not really wanting to use such a overbearing term), I can reply that:

"If I had put money first, I wouldn't have gone to grad school in the first place. In fact, I despised finance before going to grad school."

I think that helps to fill in some blanks.

When it comes to working in finance--most of us PhDs stilconsider ourselves sell-outs. Working in a bank isn't exactly in our DNA.

The 14 year old you might be giving advice to might be the next Fandrich (either of the bros). Who knows? In any case, who are we to give such advice to these kids anyway? Aspiring to be a piano technician is better than the aspirations that most 14 year olds have. If my 14 year old (when I'm old enough) tells me that he/she wants to be a piano technician, the only advice I'd give him/her would be to strive to be the best they can at it.

The 14 year old you might be giving advice to might be the next Fandrich (either of the bros). Who knows? In any case, who are we to give such advice to these kids anyway? Aspiring to be a piano technician is better than the aspirations that most 14 year olds have. If my 14 year old (when I'm old enough) tells me that he/she wants to be a piano technician, the only advice I'd give him/her would be to strive to be the best they can at it.

I said TUNER, not TECHNICIAN. In fact I had an entire paragraph saying I separate in my mind TUNERS from TECHNICIANS. How about paying some attention?

Well, hopefully it's just a misunderstanding, since, again, in my mind, technicians and tuners are two different things. Growing up, I didn't even know technicians existed--I only had tuners work on my piano. So when I finally had technicians work on my piano, I was quite amazed.

But again, TUNERS--I can see how you can live off of it, but don't see how any sane person would aspire to becoming a TUNER.

Again, TUNER, not TECHNICIAN. I have GREAT RESPECT for technicians.

I can't believe I'm using so many caps.

edit: by "work on my piano" I mean "tune my piano"

edit 2: i should clarify further, that, for the most part, in my mind, and it's becoming clear to me that it's a misconception of mine, that "technicians are strictly better than than tuners" when they appear to be used as synonyms in common parlance.

Well, in any case, but I guess I owe piano tuners+technicians an apology.

To restate: I think it's perfectly okay to consider piano technician as a career path.

I should also add that I am in no small part deeply influenced by a tuner/technician that I met in college. Apparently, he enrolled at MIT, but, according to him, "I loved pianos too much and ended up having to drop out. Now I'm miserable and working as a piano tuner." I don't know if he's a capable technician, I just know he can tune by ear.

As you've noted in your second edit, this has nothing to do with my paying attention. It has to do with a boundary you draw between piano tuners and technicians. In my mind the two are synonymous. Nobody really aspires to only tune pianos, including 14 year olds! So you've gone chasing after a red herring that you've created for yourself. I bet those piano tuners you hired did not want to become piano tuners when they were 14. I bet though that you might find some serious piano rebuilders and technicians who started out pretty early and some who aspired to be piano (re)builders and technicians at a pretty young age.

Yeah, I have no doubt. My current tuner (correct usage now) went to the Franz Listz Academy (whatever that school is) to get his degree and ended up working on Kocsis Zoltan's instrument.

He grew up wanting to become a violin builder actually, so he trained to be adept at both the violin and piano (I don't know how) but his first job at a conservatory happened to be piano related and he's stuck with the piano... even though he says he does have a couple of violins he plays with at home.

He's probably the most knowledgeable tuner I've ever met and I was surprised that he was interested in scientifically analyzing what he can hear. He appears to have self-studied enough physics to do it, but he doesn't have the programming know-how to carry it out. I was thinking of helping him one day but it's a highly non-trivial project.

As you've noted in your second edit, this has nothing to do with my paying attention. It has to do with a boundary you draw between piano tuners and technicians. In my mind the two are synonymous. Nobody really aspires to only tune pianos, including 14 year olds! So you've gone chasing after a red herring that you've created for yourself. I bet those piano tuners you hired did not want to become piano tuners when they were 14. I bet though that you might find some serious piano rebuilders and technicians who started out pretty early and some who aspired to be piano (re)builders and technicians at a pretty young age.

There is a difference between tuners and technicians that the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics recognizes. My understanding is that a technician will do regulation, a tuner won't, for example.

I still don't see the problem with a kid aspiring to only tune pianos (actually, the tuners do a few repairs, like replacing broken strings). There's nothing wrong with it as a profession, and I can imagine some people finding it a good fit.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a piano tuner/technician.I believe Lingyis views the desire to be a piano tuner/technician is not ambitious enough for a 14 year old boy especially for today environment. If it were during the war, people would just take any profession to make money. I think he feels sorry for a 14 year old boy to have such a low expectation.

I know culturally that being a piano tuner is not what Asian parents will be proud off. Being a doctor, an engineer is what parents want their kids to be. Only if kids cannot do anything else in life, they become plumber, piano tuner, taxi driver etc.

Note : Asian parents = parents who have just come from Asia or still in Asia. After several generations in the US, the value may have changed. Don't view Asian as a race, view it as a culture for this discussion.

Okay, if a tuner tunes, a technician regulates... then why be a tuner when you can be a technician? I don't get it.

Being a technician? That's a whole art in itself.

How can anyone bunch the two together, when using the above criteria? Being a technician is so much more complicated.

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Let me clarify: in my mind, aspiring to be a technician is perfectly acceptable. Aspiring to be a tuner, as in one who only tunes with a minimal knowledge of the piano action etc, I don't see what the logic in that is.

I'm NOT saying the professional of tuner/technician in general, ONLY tuners as in those who tune.

And to make things even clearer, I say ASPIRING to be a tuner, one who only tunes. Not switch careers midstream and becoming a tuner.

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I should probably just stop defending my point of view since the hole I'm digging for myself is getting bigger and bigger.

When I was 15 I did my school work experience with a piano tuner. I wanted to spend my time around music and pianos - and tuning sounded pretty cool to me. It was a family business - tuners and technicians, and a Yamaha dealership. I had a wonderful 2 weeks!

So... don't to be too quick to suggest that 14 year olds shouldn't strive toward being a tuner/technician. There is more to life than so-called financial success.

When I was 15 I did my school work experience with a piano tuner. I wanted to spend my time around music and pianos - and tuning sounded pretty cool to me. It was a family business - tuners and technicians, and a Yamaha dealership. I had a wonderful 2 weeks!

So... don't to be too quick to suggest that 14 year olds shouldn't strive toward being a tuner/technician. There is more to life than so-called financial success.

When I was 15 I did my school work experience with a piano tuner. I wanted to spend my time around music and pianos - and tuning sounded pretty cool to me. It was a family business - tuners and technicians, and a Yamaha dealership. I had a wonderful 2 weeks!

So... don't to be too quick to suggest that 14 year olds shouldn't strive toward being a tuner/technician. There is more to life than so-called financial success.

When I was 15 I did my school work experience with a piano tuner. I wanted to spend my time around music and pianos - and tuning sounded pretty cool to me. It was a family business - tuners and technicians, and a Yamaha dealership. I had a wonderful 2 weeks!

So... don't to be too quick to suggest that 14 year olds shouldn't strive toward being a tuner/technician. There is more to life than so-called financial success.

Other than my post about tuners, which, apparently there are definition misunderstandings, I have repeatedly stated my stance.

I feel hypocritical to say "Don't people read everything I write?" because obviously had I read everything from one post to another, I would have caught on that most people don't draw a line between tuners and technicians.

Ultimately, it's my fault for just jumping in and posting a one-liner. I typically don't do that. I'll be kind of content to put this issue to a rest.

If anybody is offended, I apologize. I certainly jumped the gun there.

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On tuning pianos: When I was in grad school, a teacher arranged to have a short course (a morning or so) on tuning harpsichords. Students would register, and tune the one or two harpsichords we have at our school. I was too busy to attend, but a friend went, and he had lots of fun tuning the harpsichords once every little while.

Looking back, I really wish I had gone. Tuning harpsichords is clearly much simpler than tuning pianos, but it would have provided me with great insight.

Okay, if a tuner tunes, a technician regulates... then why be a tuner when you can be a technician? I don't get it.

Because it might be a better fit, which could be for various reasons.

Like what? I can only think of farfetched examples such as:

1) Physical disabilities2) Inability to log long hours3) Financial constraints to enter full time technician school4) Other disabilities which I'm ignorant of

None of which fits the bill with TylerNB as far as we know. Discussions need to be based on reasonable assumptions, and I think I'm trying to base them on reasonable assumptions.

Being a technician pretty much encompasses all the skills of a tuner. Again, using "tuner NOT EQUAL technician" definition.

I have no idea about TylerB, really, but one could speculate that if his school-work is any indication, a piano technician project like regulating a piano might be beyond his attention span.

For the profession in general, being a tuner could be a better fit for a person simply because that is all they want to do for a job, and makes them all the money they care about. Or maybe the extra responsibilities involved in being a technician (technicians have more ways to wreck someone's piano than a tuner does) don't appeal. Or maybe they are little slow and being a technician is more challenge than they are comfortable with. Etc. Etc.

But the real point is simply that you aren't in a position to decide for others, and it sounded a lot to me like you felt like there is something inherently wrong about being an ordinary piano tuner. There isn't. It's a perfectly respectable and useful job, regardless of whether you think people should be more ambitious than want to be one.