I.E., while you and I have had our disagreements in the past, I have always respected you for your intelligence, even when it's displaced.

Unfortunately, your previous posts on this topic display your ideological leanings rather than your capacity for logical reasoning or common sense.

The major argument for Obamacare decreasing costs was that young people would be FORCED to do so and increase the insurance pool. Guess what? They aren't, and as most young people do, they don't care. They are invincible. They are the masters of their own destinies. Even though they expect the government to provide everything for them (as long as it doesn't come out of their wallet), they are in store for a rude awakening. The youngsters will take a $90 penalty vs. a $2000 insurance premium. What did anyone with an IQ above single digits expect to happen with the young uninsured?

Furthermore, if the government demands that ALL insurance carry coverage for unnecessary benefits such as free birth control without a co-pay, what would any reasonable person believe would happen to the costs? Increased benefits (whether wanted or not) leads to increased costs. Why can't I have the CHOICE for birth control coverage if I'm infertile, post-menopause, gay, or not involved in sexual relations whatsoever. The government eliminated that CHOICE for me And I'm FORCED to pay for others.

But it gets worse. Obamacare declares that every employer with more than 50 employees must provide Obamacare-approved heath insurance to everyone working more than 30 hours per week, or face a fine. Guess what? Employers are cutting their employee hours to under 30 and refusing to hire if it would push them over the 50 employee threshold. Anyone with an IQ above single digits could see this coming, but I kinda give up on the ideal that America is an exceptional country that can rise above any adversity, as it has done in the past.

Any country that is stupid enough to vote for a communist prick like Obama, doesn't deserve the freedom and liberty they had before his arrival. Mark my words.

_________________

October 13th, 2013, 1:00 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

slybri19 wrote:

Any country that is stupid enough to vote for a communist prick like Obama, doesn't deserve the freedom and liberty they had before his arrival.

As someone with family members born and raised in an actual Communist Country, your repeated claims of 'Socialism' and 'Communism' in today's US Politics rings rather hollow and shows your lack of education as well as your penchant for rhetoric.

slybri19 wrote:

Mark my words.

Which ones? Like how Palin will be the next Pres? or perhaps how Romney will? There have been so many, it's difficult to keep track.

_________________

Quote:

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October 14th, 2013, 11:05 am

The Legend

Team President - Rod Wood

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4972Location: WSU

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

TheRealWags wrote:

slybri19 wrote:

Any country that is stupid enough to vote for a communist prick like Obama, doesn't deserve the freedom and liberty they had before his arrival.

As someone with family members born and raised in an actual Communist Country, your repeated claims of 'Socialism' and 'Communism' in today's US Politics rings rather hollow and shows your lack of education as well as your penchant for rhetoric.

slybri19 wrote:

Mark my words.

Which ones? Like how Palin will be the next Pres? or perhaps how Romney will? There have been so many, it's difficult to keep track.

i think he s talking more about his opinion on obama's politics rather than saying that the United States is currently communist. many very well educated and successful people agree with him.

October 14th, 2013, 5:57 pm

The Legend

Team President - Rod Wood

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4972Location: WSU

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

I.E. wrote:

The Legend wrote:

Quote:

Keep in mind that one of the drivers behind PPACA was to stop HI costs from continuing to escalate. These costs have been rising like crazy for decades - and without controls in place and increased competition that would continue. So the increase from two years ago to last year, or last year to this year... that doesn't tell the whole story. The important part is, can we get these costs under control & get them stabilized going forward.

please share how the ACA decreases the cost to provide health care. without changing that cost the ACA cannot control cost escalation. simply controlling reimbursement (payers) will not change how much it costs to provide the care. if cost to provide the care continues to increase while reimbursement continues to decrease, costs can only be reduced further by rationing to certain groups while letting others pay out of pocket for the best care. how long before the best physicians begin to accept fee for service only? go ahead and visit your nearby Cook County Hospital and share your thoughts with us.

provider network contracting - already exists and is not exclusive to obamacare. you think its good to be restricted to which doctors you can see and think its appropriate to need to start by seeing a PCP to see a specialist and waste time. yippee, anyway this already exists.

case/medical management - not sure what you mean by this and how it applies to obamacare. are you talking about social workers in the hospital, having home health cares, etc? or do you mean by having increased govt overlook of health records - kind of like how an insurance company functions and decides if its going to cover procedures, visit, diagnostics? creates delays, often times refuses care - sorry but id rather have someone who went to medical school decide than someone behind a desk who doesnt understand basic concepts of disease. and what makes you think the govt can do this better than insurance companies already do?

physician/patient relations - this a purely meaningless statement that you listed. makes no sense at all and how is this affected by obamacare. how does obamacare improve physician/patient relations? do you mean bc patient surveys will be used to determine reimbursement? pullleeasse - every doctor wants the patient to feel well treated but do you really need to be best buddies with your surgeon or do you just want him to educate you and do a good job? these surveys are going to be virtually impossible to evaluate. doctors taking care of the sickest patients with the highest likelihood of poor outcomes are at a huge dis-advantage. there is no epidemiologist or statistician who can properly evaluate this.

preventatve medicine - again this already exists. even proven methods like vaccinations for infectious diseases are not protected against complications or more likely coincidental occurences and can result in lawsuits. preventative medicine sounds good but the fact is its not always helpful or even financially viable. it revolves around something called the number needed to treat (or screen) to help save one person. for rare diseases preventative medicine requires you to screen way too many people to help identify disease in very few. depending on the disease waiting longer can mean the disease is identified at a later date but makes no difference in treatment or prognosis. preventative medicine should focus on community education for obesity (diet, exercise), vaccinations, and more common cancerous conditions like breast, colon, prostate. anyway these things already exisit. fine many more people with medicaid will be able to access preventative care most of which already is provided free in there communities at events but unless the costs to treat these people changes most physicians will still reject medicaid patients bc it doesnt cover the expenses the physician has to put in.

economies of scale - does this mean you want less physician groups, have them join up into larger groups and join more hospitals? put all the control in the hands of hospital administrators? eliminate and control what community hospitals do, downsize those hospitals so they just deal with emergencies and create larger regional hospitals for most routine things. guess what patients dont like to travel for there health care, they dont like to park in big hospital parking lots particularly when they get older and its often not convenient for family members, etc that want to go with them when a loved one is sick. regardless this concept goes directly against your idea of "competition." again, its just more restrictions and control similar to provider network contracting. it actually decreases and in some circumstances will eliminate competition. quality drops, patient choice eliminated, satisfaction wont really matter bc there is less choice.

transparency - more govt involvement and restrictions, more fraud period.

Last edited by The Legend on October 15th, 2013, 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

October 14th, 2013, 6:31 pm

njroar

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 3241

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

Not to mention all the real cost saving measures were shot down by the insurance companies. Why? because they deal with the cost.

Competition across state lines. The big companies can place more offices than the competition. Blue Shield can have an office in every state, while the competition can't. Remove the barrier and you cut the administrative costs because Blue shield doesn't need CEO's for every state they're in. Lower their costs and the costs passed on to the patients will go down. When 80% of the costs of healthcare are in the administrative side of the business of it, you'd think they'd start there. Of course not, let's add more!

Tort Reform. This is constantly labeled as restrictive on the patient, but it's only restrictive on the doctors that have to carry million dollar insurance policies to fight the problems with lawsuits. Why would the insurance companies want to reduce their consistent customers? Patients suing doctors doesn't effect the cost of healthcare, except when the doctors and hospitals have to raise prices just to cover their own premiums. Having fair but known tort rewards labeled would lower those premiums which would lower prices. But no, again the insurance companies wrote this bill.

October 14th, 2013, 9:12 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3114

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

There are three ways to get healthcare costs to come down:

1) Do less2) Pay less3) Competition

October 14th, 2013, 11:28 pm

njroar

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 3241

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

The problem with the competition aspect of this is they're forcing everyone into the market, so there's no reason to lower prices. Competition was supposed to lower the rates of cable but the companies just agreed on a middle ground and slowly fought to stay a little lower as they raised rates dramatically every year. Unless they actually start prosecuting the companies for colluding on these rates, there's nothing to compete over.

October 14th, 2013, 11:44 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3114

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

I like the cable company analogy, but for reasons other than what you meant.

See, it isn't really Comcast or DirecTV or Cox or whoever's fault that your bill keeps going up every year. It's actually the content providers, who demand more and more fees for their channels. The cable companies just want to keep their profit margin about the same, but because Disney and Time Warner and AMC and everyone else demands more every year, they have no choice but to raise rates.

You, the consumer, can't really see this. Because you have to buy your channels in a bundle, you don't know that AMC wants to charge you an extra $3 every month. Comcast/DirecTV/Cablevision negotiates on your behalf. If you knew what each channel cost itself, and could pay for it individually, the content providers would have a more difficult time raising rates -- if any channel got too expensive, you'd just cancel it.

Likewise, the same is true for healthcare. You have a relative handful of insurance companies negotiating on your behalf for an enormous bundle of services, and the cost of those services just keeps going up.

October 15th, 2013, 10:53 am

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

The Legend wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

slybri19 wrote:

Any country that is stupid enough to vote for a communist prick like Obama, doesn't deserve the freedom and liberty they had before his arrival.

As someone with family members born and raised in an actual Communist Country, your repeated claims of 'Socialism' and 'Communism' in today's US Politics rings rather hollow and shows your lack of education as well as your penchant for rhetoric.

i think he s talking more about his opinion on obama's politics rather than saying that the United States is currently communist. many very well educated and successful people agree with him.

While that may be, those opinions show ignorance. No matter which way you put it, neither Obama nor 'ObamaCare' are Communist or Socialist in any manner. By using those terms incorrectly, it invalidates any opinion on either subject.

Put it this way, if we're discussing the weather and I tell you the sky is pink & yellow checkerboard w/unicorns for clouds, are you going to take any of my following statements seriously? I highly doubt it.

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

October 15th, 2013, 2:55 pm

njroar

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 25th, 2007, 3:20 amPosts: 3241

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

But it is a socialist program. If it weren't, the failure to purchase wouldn't be in the form of a tax lien. This isn't a free market approach, because in the free market, if you don't like it you can opt out without penalty. The forcing people to pay is a tax, plain and simple. Regardless if for the first time in our nation's history, we're forcing people to pay for something in the private sector. There in now an entire layer of government on top of a free market system that won't work to improve anything. It's only going to bring standards lower.

October 15th, 2013, 4:50 pm

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

njroar wrote:

But it is a socialist program. If it weren't, the failure to purchase wouldn't be in the form of a tax lien. This isn't a free market approach, because in the free market, if you don't like it you can opt out without penalty. The forcing people to pay is a tax, plain and simple. Regardless if for the first time in our nation's history, we're forcing people to pay for something in the private sector. There in now an entire layer of government on top of a free market system that won't work to improve anything. It's only going to bring standards lower.

Are you buying health insurance from a private corporation or from the public government? Now, if it were a single-payer program with the government being the only option, THAT would be Socialism.

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

October 16th, 2013, 9:12 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

TheRealWags wrote:

njroar wrote:

But it is a socialist program. If it weren't, the failure to purchase wouldn't be in the form of a tax lien. This isn't a free market approach, because in the free market, if you don't like it you can opt out without penalty. The forcing people to pay is a tax, plain and simple. Regardless if for the first time in our nation's history, we're forcing people to pay for something in the private sector. There in now an entire layer of government on top of a free market system that won't work to improve anything. It's only going to bring standards lower.

Are you buying health insurance from a private corporation or from the public government? Now, if it were a single-payer program with the government being the only option, THAT would be Socialism.

Is the government currently involved in the heathcare program in the United States? Has the US government passed any form of legislation that forces any entity to have a certain form of health care?

You know that answer. That, my friend, is a form of Socialism.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

October 16th, 2013, 5:56 pm

The Legend

Team President - Rod Wood

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4972Location: WSU

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

TheRealWags wrote:

The Legend wrote:

TheRealWags wrote:

slybri19 wrote:

Any country that is stupid enough to vote for a communist prick like Obama, doesn't deserve the freedom and liberty they had before his arrival.

As someone with family members born and raised in an actual Communist Country, your repeated claims of 'Socialism' and 'Communism' in today's US Politics rings rather hollow and shows your lack of education as well as your penchant for rhetoric.

i think he s talking more about his opinion on obama's politics rather than saying that the United States is currently communist. many very well educated and successful people agree with him.

While that may be, those opinions show ignorance. No matter which way you put it, neither Obama nor 'ObamaCare' are Communist or Socialist in any manner. By using those terms incorrectly, it invalidates any opinion on either subject.

Put it this way, if we're discussing the weather and I tell you the sky is pink & yellow checkerboard w/unicorns for clouds, are you going to take any of my following statements seriously? I highly doubt it.

so if someone has a difft opinion than you - it invalidates that person's opinion? a lot of people think obama's policies are socialist, a short throw from socialism or part of the path towards socialism. its an opinion not a fact. you dont think obama's opinions are representative of socialism but maybe you admit they dont exactly promote capitalism? sly belief's are far right you are somewhere left of the middle, in his perspective from the far right things left of the middle looks socialist. to the person looking from the middle it might not. i

October 16th, 2013, 6:00 pm

I.E.

Walk On

Joined: September 11th, 2010, 10:19 pmPosts: 408

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

The statement that there won't be price competition because everyone is forced to buy is just pure evidence that the writer doesn't really understand the legislation and what is being implemented. The government is not instituting price controls - but the legislation establishes essential health benefits and actuarial value ranges (the metal tiers for all new qualified health plans) that create price transparency. And with price transparency and like products, comes price competition. Econ 101, folks. And that is intended to benefit the consumer.

Sly ... if small businesses have been laying off people because of the rules you mentioned, they're just basically dumb. Those rules were deferred for at least a year, so there can be more analysis about the impacts to small businesses before they are implemented (or enforced).

Legend ... those are all examples of things (and of course most exist already) that are going to drive out costs, because they must accomplish that for health insurance companies to maximize revenues (which they will seek to do, in the capitalistic country that I personally live in - I don't know where all the communist-country dwellers on the site live). Health insurance companies cannot sell products to people outside of geographic areas, or without demonstrating network adequacy. And trust me - the states that are certifying the QHP products are serious about that. I know, because I've witnessed a company having to demonstrate network adequacy and other capabilities that fly in the face of the "scarcity" fear mongering that is going on out there (usually in comparison to single payer countries - which is nothing close to PPACA).

Mitt Romney, when he implemented his virtually identical system with an individual mandate, explained that buying healthcare insurance is about personal responsibility and not being reliant upon the government (because although it can be argued that people should be able to *choose* whether to buy insurance, they cannot *choose* to not become sick or injured). So unless people are in favor of medical and public safety professionals simply letting "save-able" people die right in front of them ... the individual mandate is ABOUT personal responsibility and not defaulting to reliance upon the government. That is (paraphrasing) what Romney said - not my opinion. My opinion about what should be done is based more on moral absolutes and what is right or wrong.

So let's watch our teams wear the pink in October, and appreciate the fact that more women are going to have access to preventative medicine.

October 16th, 2013, 6:29 pm

The Legend

Team President - Rod Wood

Joined: February 11th, 2005, 3:01 pmPosts: 4972Location: WSU

Re: Obamacare is here to stay.

IE and blueskies - for the price of something to actually go down it must cost less to produce that product. nothing in the aca allows that to happen.

for health care to be provided: there must be a building with rent, utilities, medical equipment, maintenance on the site, computers, printers, phones, internet access, etc(how does the aca decrease these costs?)

there must be secretarial staff, medical assistants, answering services, medical records (now being forced to be highly inefficient and expensive electronic medical records)(how does the aca decrease these costs?)

there must be a physician with increasing (unbelievable skyrocketing costs) costs to get through medical school, higher student loan interest rates and decreasing reimbursemen yet increasing liability insurance costs. greduating medical students now are taking on record high levels of debt and lower and lower reimbursements (how does this decrease costs and how does this improve quality of care? going into medicine is becoming less and less desirable and the best people will no longer go into it) where is tort reform? why do you think physicians identifying common problems still order advanced imaging such as CT/MRI to rule out rare, extremely unlikely conditions? smokers, noncompliant patients, etc win frivolous lawsuits more related to there own poor health than related to negiligent care. i guess its okay for this to happen.

diagnostics tests, medicines, medical implants, etc must be provided as well - where are the restrictions on these industries? i guess obama doesnt care if the costs of meds continues to rise, cost of the exact same medical implants and imaging continued to be 5-10x or more higher than places like europe? i guess these companies know that they need to hire lawyers lobby in washington and figure out ways to keep obama off there backs

IE - there is competition for obtaining a provider contract but once a contract is in place all you are left with is the contract and a bunch of restrictions. dont like ur doctor, oops too bad. office too far away, too bad. physician group or hospital secures the contract and then starts to cut there costs by lowering quality, changing/limiting qualifying services, increasing deductibles, etc. once they lock in that contract things change. competition ceases and profit maximizing begins.