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Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

Mike,

Makes sense to me!

Kent

Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:17:46 -0800, "David Rothgery"
><drothgery@alum.wpi.edu> wrote:
>
>>It's more that
>>- VB6 lacked certain basic features necessary to the .NET framework (single
>>inheritence, exception handling, etc.), so the language had to be changed,
>
>Yeah? So obviously Microsoft went completely the wrong way about it!
>
>Consider what they could have done.
>
>1. Concentrate on their Java killer, .Net, and get it to market pronto
>with the one language C#.
>
>2. Announce at the launch of .Net that their exciting new platform and
>development system for nifty web services - the thing of the future
>(okay, so I wear a different hat occasionally, so shoot me) - would
>include C# out of the box and that they were working on introducing
>other languages on an ongoing basis.
>
>3. While .Net was bedding down amongst the C# community, produce one
>or more interim versions of VB6, e.g. 6.5, 7.0, 7.5, with each version
>steadily moving more towards the .Net paradigm internally (outwardly
>maintaining full compatibility with previous classic VB versions as
>per usual).
>
>4. After, say, two years, by which time the new .Net would have been
>seen to succeed and may by now have enjoyed wide acceptance, they
>could have announced VB.Net with as near as dammit full compatibility
>with VB7.5. Result? VB programmers would have not seen anything like
>such an insurmountable problem in moving over to .Net, because they
>would have largely seen the migration as just more of the same kind of
>upgrade that they had entertained since VB1.
>
>MM

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

Keep repeating that each time you go to your self help group Mike.
james

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> reasons. And let's face it, VB.Net appears to be very much a backwater
> nowadays. People only ever seem to be talking about Java (or
> Websphere).
>
> MM

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:27:21 -0600, "james" <jjames700@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>Keep repeating that each time you go to your self help group Mike.

Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
itself, let alone VB.Net?

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

I guess that depends on where you live. Here in the North Texas area,
VB.NET usage is growing. A good example is the continued growth of the Fort
Worth DOTNET User's Group. When I first attended the user's group meeting
last September, we only had about 20 members. Last month's meeting had over
50 people attending and the majority of them use VB.NET. ( poll taken that
evening) And the others used a mix of VB.NET and C#.
The majority of the members represent some of the largest businesses in the
North Texas area. And also some major national companies.
Everyone is excited about the potential of using VB.NET in developing
in-house applications and ASP.NET apps. All of those companies represented
are currently deploying and using applications developed with VB.NET.
That number (50) is only a drop in the bucket of the number of developers
that work at the companies they work for , that use VB.NET on a daily basis.
So, from what I have been seeing and hearing (from other developers), VB.NET
usage is going up more and more.
And more of those companies are dropping the use of VB6 (other than to
maintain old apps developed in VB6), and migrating over to VB.NET.
You should look around where you live and see if there is a User's Group
in your area.
You might just find out where the BUZZ is !!
james

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4u2l6v0qu03uthvlhof5dpqvel82abcrek@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:27:21 -0600, "james" <jjames700@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Keep repeating that each time you go to your self help group Mike.
>
> Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
> VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
> doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
> itself, let alone VB.Net?
>
> MM

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:44:56 -0600, "james" <jjames700@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>I guess that depends on where you live. Here in the North Texas area,
>VB.NET usage is growing. A good example is the continued growth of the Fort
>Worth DOTNET User's Group. When I first attended the user's group meeting
>last September, we only had about 20 members. Last month's meeting had over
>50 people attending and the majority of them use VB.NET. ( poll taken that
>evening) And the others used a mix of VB.NET and C#.
>The majority of the members represent some of the largest businesses in the
>North Texas area. And also some major national companies.
>Everyone is excited about the potential of using VB.NET in developing
>in-house applications and ASP.NET apps. All of those companies represented
>are currently deploying and using applications developed with VB.NET.
>That number (50) is only a drop in the bucket of the number of developers
>that work at the companies they work for , that use VB.NET on a daily basis.
>So, from what I have been seeing and hearing (from other developers), VB.NET
>usage is going up more and more.
>And more of those companies are dropping the use of VB6 (other than to
>maintain old apps developed in VB6), and migrating over to VB.NET.
> You should look around where you live and see if there is a User's Group
>in your area.
>You might just find out where the BUZZ is !!

So the membership went up from 20 to 50 in six months, bravo! By the
way, it's hardly surprising that people are dropping VB like crazy
because they'd be crazy to use a product that has been officially
discontinued. When I speak of "buzz" I mean the kind that emanated
from every computer mag and much ordinary non-computing media as well,
as VeeBee was seen to be ubiquitous, profitable, accessible and
flexible to millions, by millions, for millions - and for millions of
bucks to be made, too.

Of course, it's your right to redefine the meaning of buzz, should you
so wish. But like I said earlier, believing something doesn't make it
true.

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

"Mike Mitchell" <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > So the membership
went up from 20 to 50 in six months, bravo! By the
> way, it's hardly surprising that people are dropping VB like crazy
> because they'd be crazy to use a product that has been officially
> discontinued. When I speak of "buzz" I mean the kind that emanated
> from every computer mag and much ordinary non-computing media as well,
> as VeeBee was seen to be ubiquitous, profitable, accessible and
> flexible to millions, by millions, for millions - and for millions of
> bucks to be made, too.
>
> Of course, it's your right to redefine the meaning of buzz, should you
> so wish. But like I said earlier, believing something doesn't make it
> true.
>
> MM
Yes, the membership has grown that much in 6 months. It may not seem like a
lot to you but, it is a sign of increasing acceptance. And as I said, those
50 people represent a lot more programmers than just those 50 people. Not
everyone in their respective companies can or want to be involved in a
user's group. Not everyone in any endevor belongs to a club or user's
group.
I understand what you were saying about"buzz". And your right, VB.NET
has not gotten the same coverage as VB itself did when it was first
introduced. The main reason for that is because it is evolutionary, not
revolutionary, like VB was when it was first introduced.
It (VB.NET) is looked upon as just another RAD tool. Not in the same light
as when VB was first introduced. Before VB, there wasn't anything like it
out there. That is why there was all the "buzz". VB.NET is just another,
improved version of VB. And once you get used to using it, you can see that
it is just as easy to use and much more powerful than it's predecessors.
Which is an Evolution of the Visual Basic language. Not like with Visual
Basic, which was a Revolutionary change from Quick Basic. Just the
addition of Drag & Drop Windows Forms design, was Revolutionary. Not to
mention all the additional language enhancements. And there were a lot of
things removed from the Basic Language in Visual Basic that was in Quick
Basic, just because they were not needed or relivant to Visual Basic and the
Windows enviroment.
It is just a continued change to allow Visual Basic programmers the chance
to develop applications that work well in newer versions of Windows. And
provide their users the latest features in their applications.
I think the next Revolutionary Programming Language will be the one that
allows Voice activated programming. Like the Star Trek movies. Just tell
the computer what function you want it to preform and it does it.
Well, enough of this. Have fun Mike, and rant on!! I get a laugh out of
your rants. Especially since they are just reruns of your early rants from
years ago. You have just updated them to Visual Basic.NET.
james

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:21:51 -0600, "james" <jjames700@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>Well, enough of this. Have fun Mike, and rant on!! I get a laugh out of
>your rants. Especially since they are just reruns of your early rants from
>years ago. You have just updated them to Visual Basic.NET.

Sex is just a rerun from the previous Friday, yet we still look
forward to Fridays!

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
>itself, let alone VB.Net?

Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

Hi Kent,

Then how do you explain all the industry awards .NET has won, all coverage
by all the programming magazines, all the coverage by non-programing magazines,
the hundreds of .NET websites, the standing-room only attendence for all
the .NET events, all the companies that are switching to .NET, etc.?

/Pat
----------------
Show me the XML.
----------------

"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
>
>Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
>>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
>>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
>>itself, let alone VB.Net?
>
>Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
>VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
>dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.
>
>You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.
>

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

Very easily. People are curious, it's in their nature. Industry awards are
bought and sold all of the time. Just because someone produces a solid development
tool does not mean it will get industry acceptance. Though .Net developers
will clearly use VS.Net. Lets not forget there is not much comeptition in
the area of .Net IDEs right now.

How do you explain the lack of adoption of .Net? VB.Net in particular.
Why are there so few opportunites for VB.Net developers. There may be plenty
of developers interested in .Net, but developer interest alone does not create
jobs.

Why has there not been a mass exodous of existing enterprise solutions if
.Net is so great? .Net has not give enterprise developers sufficent reason
to depart from their existing toolset. Most of the developers moving to
.Net are Microsoft developers who simply do not have a choice or a say in
the matter.

It seems that just about every pro .Net post you list comes from the Microsoft
website where you would expect to find pro .Net propaganda. I've read in
a couple trades like CRN that Microsoft is strong arming a lot of it's partners
to get on board with .Net. I think there is a lot of desparation right now
on the part of Microsoft and it's supporters.

So there you have it.

Kent

"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
>
>Hi Kent,
>
>Then how do you explain all the industry awards .NET has won, all coverage
>by all the programming magazines, all the coverage by non-programing magazines,
>the hundreds of .NET websites, the standing-room only attendence for all
>the .NET events, all the companies that are switching to .NET, etc.?
>
>/Pat
>----------------
>Show me the XML.
>----------------
>
>"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
>>
>>Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
>>>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
>>>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
>>>itself, let alone VB.Net?
>>
>>Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
>>VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
>>dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.
>>
>>You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.
>>
>

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
>
>Very easily. People are curious, it's in their nature.
True. I got curious when I saw the Pet Shop results.

> Industry awards are
>bought and sold all of the time.
So you say all the awards are fake?
> Just because someone produces a solid development
>tool does not mean it will get industry acceptance. Though .Net developers
>will clearly use VS.Net. Lets not forget there is not much comeptition
in
>the area of .Net IDEs right now.
VS has never had much competition.

>How do you explain the lack of adoption of .Net? VB.Net in particular.
What lack of adoption. Your assertion doesn't make it true.

>Why are there so few opportunites for VB.Net developers. There may be plenty
>of developers interested in .Net, but developer interest alone does not
create
>jobs.

>Why has there not been a mass exodous of existing enterprise solutions if
>.Net is so great? .Net has not give enterprise developers sufficent reason
>to depart from their existing toolset. Most of the developers moving to
>.Net are Microsoft developers who simply do not have a choice or a say in
>the matter.
I think they have plenty of say, and they're moving as fast as possible.
>It seems that just about every pro .Net post you list comes from the Microsoft
>website where you would expect to find pro .Net propaganda. I've read in
>a couple trades like CRN that Microsoft is strong arming a lot of it's partners
>to get on board with .Net.
Post the links.
>I think there is a lot of desparation right now
>on the part of Microsoft and it's supporters.
Your presence here suggests that there is more desparation among Java developers.
>So there you have it.
>
>Kent
>
>"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hi Kent,
>>
>>Then how do you explain all the industry awards .NET has won, all coverage
>>by all the programming magazines, all the coverage by non-programing magazines,
>>the hundreds of .NET websites, the standing-room only attendence for all
>>the .NET events, all the companies that are switching to .NET, etc.?
>>
>>/Pat
>>----------------
>>Show me the XML.
>>----------------
>>
>>"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
>>>>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
>>>>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
>>>>itself, let alone VB.Net?
>>>
>>>Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
>>>VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
>>>dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.
>>>
>>>You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.
>>>
>>
>

Re: Microsoft's C++ bigotry

Hi Kent,

I'm not sure where you live, but here in the US, the adoption of .NET is
widespread and growing. Hundreds of companies are using it, such as mine.

I have a have quite a few friends and family members in the industry and
half of them have already made the switch. For example, I know one consultant
in particular who is doing a VB.NET project for one of the largest retail
stores in the world. I know another who's company flew her down to Florida
just 4 days ago because the client couldn't find any experienced .NET developers
in the area.

When I attended the .NET launch event, it was standing room only. Not one
single seat was available. I even know Java programmers who are desperately
scrambling to learn .NET because they're having trouble finding jobs.

Your statement that the buzz is only from MS websites and magazines is ridiculous.
You should try visiting eweek.com, news.com, ZDNET.com, or computerworld.com.
These are non-MS websites and almost every single day, at least one of them
has some news or article about .NET. The buzz is everywhere. The next time
you're at the news stand, go pick up the March 25th issue of PC Magazine
and turn to article on page 74. There's yet another success story of yet
another company adopting .NET. If you don't think .NET is taking off, I can
only assume you don't get out much.

/Pat
----------------
Show me the XML.
----------------

"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
>
>How do you explain the lack of adoption of .Net?
> VB.Net in particular.
>Why are there so few opportunites for VB.Net developers. There may be plenty
>of developers interested in .Net, but developer interest alone does not
create
>jobs.
>
>Why has there not been a mass exodous of existing enterprise solutions if
>.Net is so great? .Net has not give enterprise developers sufficent reason
>to depart from their existing toolset. Most of the developers moving to
>.Net are Microsoft developers who simply do not have a choice or a say in
>the matter.
>
>It seems that just about every pro .Net post you list comes from the Microsoft
>website where you would expect to find pro .Net propaganda. I've read in
>a couple trades like CRN that Microsoft is strong arming a lot of it's partners
>to get on board with .Net. I think there is a lot of desparation right
now
>on the part of Microsoft and it's supporters.
>
>So there you have it.
>
>Kent
>
>"Patrick Troughton" <Patrick@Troughton.com> wrote:
>>
>>Hi Kent,
>>
>>Then how do you explain all the industry awards .NET has won, all coverage
>>by all the programming magazines, all the coverage by non-programing magazines,
>>the hundreds of .NET websites, the standing-room only attendence for all
>>the .NET events, all the companies that are switching to .NET, etc.?
>>
>>/Pat
>>----------------
>>Show me the XML.
>>----------------
>>
>>"Kent" <kp@kp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>Mike Mitchell <kylix_is@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Well, sure, you can *say* that, but where is the buzz surrounding
>>>>VB.Net? I just don't see it. I mean, you can believe something, but it
>>>>doesn't make it true! Where, in fact, is the buzz surrounding .Net
>>>>itself, let alone VB.Net?
>>>
>>>Apparently marketing no longer makes for good technology. Have you seen
>>>VS magazine as of late? You would think that with all of the advertising
>>>dollars they collect, they could provide some solid content.
>>>
>>>You're right the buzz around .Net is hardly even a dull hum.
>>>
>>
>

On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:26:31 +0000, Mike Mitchell wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:48:18 -0000, "John Butler"
> <nospamjrbutler@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>You don't see your hypocrisy?
>
> I refuse to accept there was any. In 1997 no VB programmers would have
> had even a minuscule inkling of the changes which would befall them
> within just a few years, although VB.Net was probably (Project Cool?)
> already on the drawing board by then. We used VBXs if we wanted
> additional, third-party controls. Suddenly, however, they were passť,
> and were replaced with OCXs, which were themselves renamed to ActiveX.
> At that time, within the parameters of change we were comfortable
> with, such arbitrary and costly changes seemed tremendously
> significant. And when I see significant changes for their own sake, I
> write about 'em! It's what I do!

All of us who were commercially developing at this time were inconvenienced
by the move from VBX to OCX, but the increase in reliability and
flexibility of our development system that this brought about made it all
worthwhile.
The fact that you clearly never had to develop your own VBX or OCX
components shows that you are not qualified (and were not back when you
commented) to make any valid judgements on this issue.
The OCX interface allowed us to make reliable, flexible, self-documenting
components. The VBX interface was a complete bodge, and it was almost
impossible to develop reliable addons.
My only complaint about the introduction of OCX was that third parties
stopped all development (and bug fixes) on their VBX components while they
worked on their new OCXs.
> However, what we are now faced with is several orders of magnitude
> more different than ever any of the changes we had thrust on us back
> then. Who would have guessed what would await us VB programmers in
> 2002? Who could have predicted the huge outcry (well, I did a couple
> of years ago, but that's another story)?
>
> But I see that you obtain some sense of absolution for VB.Net by
> referring to what I wrote six years ago, and since VB.Net needs all
> the support it can get if it is to stay afloat, I'm magnanimous enough
> to allow you to capitalise on anything else I might have written
> before now.

I'm not sure what this 'sense of absolution' tosh is, but I see a clear
lack of ability to adapt when I read the same complaints from you six years
later but with a different product name
Perhaps you should consider a career in dry-stone-wall building,
grave-digging, or somesuch situation that does not change over decades or
centuries.

On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:18:34 +0000, Mike Mitchell wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:23:05 +1100, Jason Sobell iGadget
> <igadget_@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Perhaps you should consider a career in dry-stone-wall building,
>>grave-digging, or somesuch situation that does not change over decades or
>>centuries.
>
> Well, of course, I have a choice, but many do not. Many are being
> forced into such allegedly mundane jobs as the IT industry implodes in
> upon itself, since the job scene is now dire on both sides of the
> pond. Like I said earlier this month, computing has become boring for
> most people. The frisson has gone out of it and people are just fed up
> with the hype, the viruses, the instability, and the cost. Computing
> is starting to go the way of CB radio, still followed, I'm told, by
> truckers in grease-stained T-shirts, but outside that niche hardly
> figures at all on most people's horizons. The one thing capitalism has
> to do to survive is to keep on selling, and if they cannot sell
> computers or the idea of computers to the general public, they have to
> look around for something else to sell instead. My local branch of a
> UK-wide consumer electronics chain was again almost empty yesterday
> (Saturday). The chain had a poor Christmas in terms of sales. But a
> few doors down, the local camera shop was knee-deep in punters. In
> fact, I have tried twice recently to stay in the queue long enough to
> get some information, but had to leave because they were so busy. (Of
> course, this begs the question why they don't employ more staff, but
> that's another question.)
>
> MM