This is a pleasant little article. (http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakingnews/article_2121177.shtml)

Comments?

onesuiteworld

11-10-2005, 05:12 PM

hes sick

the administration is terrifying

it will be the downfall of our world standing

and the 9 senators who voted for torture out t be tortured

dmdbmb

11-10-2005, 05:54 PM

Never a surprise coming from the whitehouse, whether it be democrats or republicans....But I firmly disagree with DC's proposition!

swedishphish

11-10-2005, 06:21 PM

the government makes me angry... a lot

CrazyEazy

11-10-2005, 06:37 PM

well coming from a strong military background my view on the subject is the people the cia have held and are doing these inhumane things to are not your every day soccer dad and soccer mom... saftey for our country has counted on these things happening... No matter republican or democratic its the way of black opps. i dont see them just sitting aside and treating us nice and they dont either.. Thats just my PEACE....

onesuiteworld

11-11-2005, 10:39 AM

well coming from a strong military background my view on the subject is the people the cia have held and are doing these inhumane things to are not your every day soccer dad and soccer mom... saftey for our country has counted on these things happening... No matter republican or democratic its the way of black opps. i dont see them just sitting aside and treating us nice and they dont either.. Thats just my PEACE....

if i understand you correctly, and you are in favor of such acts, have you also heard the overwhelming ineffectiveness of such acts? it is an unrealistic situation to have a suspect in custody who is the sole person to stop an event from occuring (i love the show 24, but its unrealistic). it is an inhumane practice that violates the geneva convention. by doing it, we are basically giving the middle finger to the world, showing that we will not play by the rules that govern all other soverign nations. thats just one liberals point of view

theponderousman

11-11-2005, 01:18 PM

if i understand you correctly, and you are in favor of such acts, have you also heard the overwhelming ineffectiveness of such acts? it is an unrealistic situation to have a suspect in custody who is the sole person to stop an event from occuring (i love the show 24, but its unrealistic). it is an inhumane practice that violates the geneva convention. by doing it, we are basically giving the middle finger to the world, showing that we will not play by the rules that govern all other soverign nations. thats just one liberals point of view

Actually, I'm not jumping into this discussion until later this weekend maybe...BUT...

I actually haven't heard about the overwhelming ineffectiveness of such acts, although I'm sure there's people on both sides of the extreme isles that have proof for and against it....I just haven't seen much of it yet, but I'd be up for reading anything if you have a link or something I could check out?

Then you (not you as in you, but you as in 'the people') have the quandry of 'well....nothing too major has happened in the US since 9-11, and it's because we've held 'prisoners' and 'interrogated' them....so that justifies the use right?' I'm not necessarily agreeing with that thought process, but it's an interesting idea to retain.

Then of course you can ALSO retain the thought that maybe nothing's been PLANNED since 9-11, and those being 'interrogated' are just giving info to stop the 'interrogation'.

Which brings me back to the question, what came first, the chicken or the egg? :)

CrazyEazy

11-11-2005, 03:31 PM

if i understand you correctly, and you are in favor of such acts, have you also heard the overwhelming ineffectiveness of such acts? it is an unrealistic situation to have a suspect in custody who is the sole person to stop an event from occuring (i love the show 24, but its unrealistic). it is an inhumane practice that violates the geneva convention. by doing it, we are basically giving the middle finger to the world, showing that we will not play by the rules that govern all other soverign nations. thats just one liberals point of view

yes you heard me correctly.....This is really nothing new that these things have been happening... its been going on as long as there has been war... Your right 1 person can not stop all this stuff and I don't seriously think any country gives a rats ass about the geneva convention, " It's more like Guidelines anyways" something for people to cry wolf. There is no other way to beat these people... its a Holy War we are in it wether we like it or not.... But my opinion is one sided because i am in a military family that strongly believes in "At Any Cost"... Thats just my view.. and i respect anyone elses that differs.

onesuiteworld

11-11-2005, 05:28 PM

yes you heard me correctly.....This is really nothing new that these things have been happening... its been going on as long as there has been war... Your right 1 person can not stop all this stuff and I don't seriously think any country gives a rats ass about the geneva convention, " It's more like Guidelines anyways" something for people to cry wolf. There is no other way to beat these people... its a Holy War we are in it wether we like it or not.... But my opinion is one sided because i am in a military family that strongly believes in "At Any Cost"... Thats just my view.. and i respect anyone elses that differs.

just two quick points

I don't seriously think any country gives a rats ass about the geneva convention

what democratic countries that were present at the geneva convention use these techniques?

its a Holy War

not completly. while some of anti american sentiment, and acts against america, are in the name of god, we are hated for many other reasons.

i mean fuck, we put the koran in the toilet. if there is a better example of a holier than thou attitude, please, tell me.

theponderousman

11-11-2005, 10:05 PM

what democratic countries that were present at the geneva convention use these techniques?

not completly. while some of anti american sentiment, and acts against america, are in the name of god, we are hated for many other reasons.

i mean fuck, we put the koran in the toilet. if there is a better example of a holier than thou attitude, please, tell me.

If anyone thinks that it's just the U.S. that may use torturing techniques in interrigating prisoners to obtain information about saving that country's CIVILLIAN lives, then you are SADLY mistaken and should go back to Niave University. Please, it happens ANYWHERE in the world and it's NOT just military or governments that do it. There's no doubt that police and law enforcement do it. Does it make it right? NOPE! Should those people face the courts should they get caught? YEP! Does it make it right that the methods used may have saved a little girl's life, or saved a city from a bomb attack? Depends on who you ask by the way it looks like it these days, and that's PROBABLY not going to change unfortunately.

Oh, and as for the Koran in the toilet comment. yeah, it shouldn't have happened, but ya know what!? Watching the head of an American contracter or soldier DISPLAYED ON TELEVISION FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO SEE being chopped off while being called infidels, may....JUST MAY be a good example of the 'holier than thou attitude' you're asking about. Don't forget that there were FEW Muslim outcries when THAT happened, but you have a Koran thrown down the toilet (by PRISONERS AS WELL), and it's time to call for a Jihad (Holy war mind you).

The hyprocrisy of those crying foul sickens me, and I'm sorry I got a bit testy in this posting, but I'm tired from hearing the same comments on a worldly level, yet they forget about the POSITIVE STUFF that happens. I love the discussions here though, really I do! :)

Christian

theponderousman

11-11-2005, 10:10 PM

I didn't want to post this info in my previous post cause I was babbling on way too much :)

BUT...there are people in this world that are suited for certain kinds of jobs and probably do them to the best of their abilities. Soldiers, politicans (ok, bad example there), accountants (maybe another bad example), teachers, you name it and there's a place for them. And yes, there's a place for the psycho idiots that can live with themselves if they were to torture someone...and unfortunately there are times when these people are called into action to save lives.

I'm the first in line to say that it's sad that we live in a time when these people are needed in SOME fashion or another. I could never do it, I could never tell someone to do it, and I hope to God, Allah, and Dave himself that we're able to live in a peaceful world in our lifetimes.

Christian

LibbyAnn

11-12-2005, 07:16 AM

If anyone thinks that it's just the U.S. that may use torturing techniques in interrigating prisoners to obtain information about saving that country's CIVILLIAN lives, then you are SADLY mistaken and should go back to Niave University. Please, it happens ANYWHERE in the world and it's NOT just military or governments that do it. There's no doubt that police and law enforcement do it. Does it make it right? NOPE! Should those people face the courts should they get caught? YEP! Does it make it right that the methods used may have saved a little girl's life, or saved a city from a bomb attack? Depends on who you ask by the way it looks like it these days, and that's PROBABLY not going to change unfortunately.

Oh, and as for the Koran in the toilet comment. yeah, it shouldn't have happened, but ya know what!? Watching the head of an American contracter or soldier DISPLAYED ON TELEVISION FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO SEE being chopped off while being called infidels, may....JUST MAY be a good example of the 'holier than thou attitude' you're asking about. Don't forget that there were FEW Muslim outcries when THAT happened, but you have a Koran thrown down the toilet (by PRISONERS AS WELL), and it's time to call for a Jihad (Holy war mind you).

The hyprocrisy of those crying foul sickens me, and I'm sorry I got a bit testy in this posting, but I'm tired from hearing the same comments on a worldly level, yet they forget about the POSITIVE STUFF that happens. I love the discussions here though, really I do! :)

Christian

Well said.

onesuiteworld

11-12-2005, 07:38 AM

If anyone thinks that it's just the U.S. that may use torturing techniques in interrigating prisoners to obtain information about saving that country's CIVILLIAN lives, then you are SADLY mistaken and should go back to Niave University. Please, it happens ANYWHERE in the world and it's NOT just military or governments that do it. There's no doubt that police and law enforcement do it. Does it make it right? NOPE! Should those people face the courts should they get caught? YEP! Does it make it right that the methods used may have saved a little girl's life, or saved a city from a bomb attack? Depends on who you ask by the way it looks like it these days, and that's PROBABLY not going to change unfortunately.

Oh, and as for the Koran in the toilet comment. yeah, it shouldn't have happened, but ya know what!? Watching the head of an American contracter or soldier DISPLAYED ON TELEVISION FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO SEE being chopped off while being called infidels, may....JUST MAY be a good example of the 'holier than thou attitude' you're asking about. Don't forget that there were FEW Muslim outcries when THAT happened, but you have a Koran thrown down the toilet (by PRISONERS AS WELL), and it's time to call for a Jihad (Holy war mind you).

The hyprocrisy of those crying foul sickens me, and I'm sorry I got a bit testy in this posting, but I'm tired from hearing the same comments on a worldly level, yet they forget about the POSITIVE STUFF that happens. I love the discussions here though, really I do! :)

Christian

as for the whole decapitating of americans, that is obviously wrong, but the difference is that it was a few rougue people acting outside the authority of the government. but when you get an abu ghrab situation, where a standing military unit is using harsh interrogation techniques, both unwarrented and to no avail, you have a problem.

what has been grosely overlooked in this discussion is that basic human rights that are violated. yes, it is done in other parts of the world, but as a superpower, THE SUPERPOWER, we must a) set a precident and b) learn to respect other nations/our agreements with other nations.

and i believe that the only people who should be attending this naive university are those who listen to and believe what the government tell us.

and i too love these discussions. :boings:

theponderousman

11-12-2005, 02:21 PM

as for the whole decapitating of americans, that is obviously wrong, but the difference is that it was a few rougue people acting outside the authority of the government. but when you get an abu ghrab situation, where a standing military unit is using harsh interrogation techniques, both unwarrented and to no avail, you have a problem.

what has been grosely overlooked in this discussion is that basic human rights that are violated. yes, it is done in other parts of the world, but as a superpower, THE SUPERPOWER, we must a) set a precident and b) learn to respect other nations/our agreements with other nations.

and i believe that the only people who should be attending this naive university are those who listen to and believe what the government tell us.

and i too love these discussions. :boings:

I agree with your thought that as we're the only main superpower that we should set the bar as to not violating human rights. Unfortunately though, we live in a time of hatred and aggression towards the US (this was there BEFORE Bush was in office, let's not blame just him although he's definitely fuled the fire), and steps have to be taken to insure less lives are lost, not only American lives. Does that include torture? That's not for me to decide and thank god for that because I could never sleep with myself if I had to make that decision.

And although you bring up a decent argument about the beheaders acting alone without government influence (although former Batthe party members have been captured around these previous torture sites), what you've posted makes it sound as if OUR administration OK'd the use of torture at Abu Gharib? I don't believe that's been the case and those that were a part of that weren't necessarily acting alone, but it's also been proven to be an isolated event. Yet again though, the world unites more against that than they did against the beheadings!?!?!? That's bullshit if you ask me.

And, although there's no evidence for or against this next statement (hey at least I can admit it right?? :) ), there's no way for any civillian, or really ANYONE except a few people, that would ever tell us if any information was received of the interrigation of the prisoners there. It sounds like an excuse I know, but we'll never know the full extent of what torture, interrigation or politely asking prisoners will gain us. And if I'm living in a safer world right now and less lives are lost because of it...who am I to judge? Let god, allah or whoever judge those that commit those disgusting acts.

theponderousman

11-12-2005, 02:24 PM

and i believe that the only people who should be attending this naive university are those who listen to and believe what the government tell us.

and i too love these discussions. :boings:

I couldn't agree with you more here, BUT, I wouldn't stop at just the government....media, professors with agendas, friends that are too passionate.....do the research yourself (not you you, but everyone) and believe what you want to believe. And as long as you have an EDUCATED stance on it and know as many sides to things as possible and don't become to entangled to not see other people's points of views to STRENGTHEN your own knowledge...the world's a much better place because of it.

Good talking with ya :biggrin:

Christian

dmdbmb

11-12-2005, 04:03 PM

Lets remember that the original idea of this thread was about DC asking the Senate to openly allow torturing. Yes our military tortures people....But should we have legislation that openly says yes lets torture these little fucks and tell everyone we are going to! I think it a horrible idea! Basically that means it gives our government the power to torture anyone as long as long as the CIA is involved....So basically all they would have to do is make a phone call and tada: Approved torture! Forget that!

CrazyEazy

11-13-2005, 07:46 AM

Lets remember that the original idea of this thread was about DC asking the Senate to openly allow torturing. Yes our military tortures people....But should we have legislation that openly says yes lets torture these little fucks and tell everyone we are going to! I think it a horrible idea! Basically that means it gives our government the power to torture anyone as long as long as the CIA is involved....So basically all they would have to do is make a phone call and tada: Approved torture! Fuck that!

i agree... openly admitting it and then doing it will be death to our agents for sure. Either way no matter what happens there still we be torture and at the same time Delta Force is ammune to any legal actions they take.. they can kill torture blow up, steal anything they want and they are ammune (in the united states) from legal actions.. even if senate says no it will still happen we all know this...Better tio let senate shoot cheney down... its a bad thought it will happen but it will at least not make us openly look like terrorists... i mean thats basicaly what they do to us.... openly shoot, kill ,torture you know.