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Run a super thick oil on the track and congratulations. You now have less oil flowing over the surface of your bearings at the same oil pressure as an oil that is thinner and flows more freely over the surface.

Even in race conditions. Running a thinner is will provide better results. More hp. Easier spinning assembly. Low temps due to decreased friction and better bearing life because the continual flow keeps the additives that get distributed to the bearing surface flowing in and out to place new molecules of zddp. Moly. Or whateverelse your oil has in it as anti wear agents, on the surface.

You complained before about having oil like water at the end of arace. Well if you used a good synthetic oil (group iii, ester or pao) you wouldn't have that issue because synthetics all but eliminate the thinning that occurs with mineral based oils (dino oil. Whatever you want to call it).

You can sit here and preach all day about ehatever you want. But in the end. Using the proper weight oil for the right application is what its about.

Too thin means not enough pressure and not enough oil flow, only a certain amount of oil can be spread out onto the surface of the bearings. And contrary to what you said about 2jz having similar clearances to another engine... true if it was a brand new motor... but 2jz and everything else wear over time. And if the wear is too great the available room for oil to enter bearings becomes larger. Meaning less pressure with the same oil thickness.

So having to choose the right thickness comes at testing for your own car to find out what grade oil it takes to keep the car satisfied. Without going too high (like his 20 50 grade) which will obviously give you high pressures. But at the high price of restricted flow and reaching a maximum circulation of oil at a far lower rpm. Which in cars like these that rev high whenracing. Having good oil flow at high rpms is essential.

In the end having something in your car that has a weight of 0w20 or 5w30 is all up to you. But I woul never run something that has more than 10w as the startip weight. You are only asking for trouble at that point because having something even as thin as 5w will cause startip wear. Which will cause more grief than 6 hours of pure driving on that 1 startup.

After you can choose the right weight for the car based on your conditions (where you live. What you use it for. How long you drive it every day. What temps it reaches. How worn is the engine) then you can find out which manufacturer provides you with the right oil.

Lots of oils are good. Some are better. Some are not so good.

And example is an oil meant for racing . Pure racing oils that actual race teams use have little to no detergents in them because they are meant to be changed every race. Run that in your normal car for a year and your looking at a lot of buildup.

Off the shelf motor oils will have low levels of zddp and other antiwear agents as a result of the epa wanting to keep catalytic converters from going to hell from the additives in the oil. As a result its hard to buy an oil with higher levels of antiwear agents in them from the local store.
And these antiwear agents in the additives will provide far more bearing protection and lubrication than trying to go nuts over buying a super thick oil with the mentality that thicker means more slick.

I could write more but there's too much info out there for everyone to read and learn.

Cliffs. Adrenaline needs to read up and stop using 20w50 because its "better"

Your tuner is smart. ..just change the dam oil every 1500 miles that's all...you can run any dam name brand oil but the most important part is getting your car tuned properly and changing your oil every 1500-2000 miles...Turbo cars will definitely use up oil. .so check periodically. ..simple enough

Care to explain boostin? Because from a technical standpoint a car high performance car with a turbocharger is going to generate much higher heat in the oil. And is going to put far more stress on the bearings requiring a much higher shear quality to it.

I would love to hear your tuners opinion on why he claims using a regular oil is better.

Oils. Regular. Are designed to be run for 3 to 5000 miles. The additives in them don't last much longer and the oil itself will breakdown and be useless because of the thinning that happes over time due to breakdown when combustion gasses. Soot. Gas from blowby. Everything gets in the oil.

Synthetics are packed full of additives that will last so much longer that its ridiculous. The synthetic oil resists the same breakdown that occurs with regular oils. So changing them so early on ispointless. You'll be throwing out good oil. The synthetic just does not break down in the same conditions that a regular does. Not only that but high heat conditions that a turbocharger will throw at oil will be dealt with far better with a synthetic as opposed to a regular oil.

I have even heard people claim they change their oil based on how it looks, yet the oil may be black but that doesn't mean its bad. Oil has properties to it to take all of the foreign contaminants like soot. That will turn the oil black, and suspend it so it doesn't group up and clog things up. Its meant to turn black as it cleans and protects the engine.

Furthermore. Changing your oil too soon is an expensive habbit. You may feel god at changing at 1500 miles. But you have no idea how much additives are left in the oil (getting an oil analysisdone will tell you for sure). The additives that are active in an oil are what give the added protection. Some oils that require changes at high mileage . Ie. 25k or 1 year. Have additives that won't be active until the pressure and heat from prolonged use activate them, tossing an oil out that hasn't even had its
additives activated yet through normal use just puts you back at square one with increased wear.

Using a regular oil is good enough though. Chnaged regularly at the oil manufacturers discretion and you can find the macimum potential by doing oil analysis on it wen you change it. You may find that your regular oil lasts you more than 4000 miles on your driving patterns and you have been changing it at 1500.

Just remember that there are different oils for different uses... I wouldn't recommend anyone who only puts 300 miles a year on their car to use a dino oil. Its going to break down super quick due to lack of heat to burn off contaminants present in the oil. Not to mention that the life of the oil just sitting in a cold engines is less than oil being used (regular)

Need more info? Just ask. Or research. But I can tell you for a fact that a regular oil won't be better than a good synthetic in a high horsepower turbocharged car. Your tuner is high

edit sorry for bad grammar, stupid punctuation or anything else that seems weird, wrote that stuff while i was at work last night on my phone.

i'd just like to reiterate for people that changing oil at intervals sooner than necessary is worse than changing out at the right time. whether its a mileage, or a time frame for the kind of use it has seen.

EDIT: i would also like to state for everyone so no one gets confused from adrenlines post. he claims that using a thicker oil for higher hp. a thicker oil does not promote a better shear quality which is what he is claiming. that comes from the oil makeup and what additives are present in it.

you can find that some oils will take 500,000 psi before they are squeezed away from the bearing surface, and others of the same exact weight will get squeezed out at the same pressure but will have far less bearing wear because of the additives present that lay down a protective "barrier" on the bearing preventing wear. ie, zddp, moly, and whatnot. thickness has nothing to do with shear strength

and ryeno was technically right about choosing the thinnest oil that still keeps your oil pressure at the right level, but didn't really get into depth about the rest of the equation, because oil flow is just a small part of having a good oil and choosing the right weight and type.

EDIT: i would also like to state for everyone so no one gets confused from adrenlines post. he claims that using a thicker oil for higher hp. a thicker oil does not promote a better shear quality which is what he is claiming. that comes from the oil makeup and what additives are present in it.

You're mis-using terms as well as providing inaccurate statements at the same time. Shear is much more appropriately used as a quality term over a period of time meant to operate under a given set of stresses and heat ranges. You cannot compare the shear quality of a 10-30 oil to a 15-40/15-50/20-50 or w/e. That's apples to oranges. A shear quality is something you need to look at after the proper weight has been decided. You're not using the right information here Kracin, once again you're doing like others do and just posting up general information and terms w/o applying it to our specifics.

An oil's weight range is DIRECTLY correlated to the viscosity (specifically cSt) it will be at, given X temperatures. The cSt rating we're needing is ~17+ at 212*F (100*C) which is the standard testing temperature on just about every motor oil sold. Our motors run ~240*F and up. I say 17 b/c that is the number I have come up with, from my research, and the clearances I run on the motors I build, which are nothing special or super secret. Straight off the bat, 100%, this eliminates damn near every oil under 30 weight for our motors, especially for people that actually DRIVE them.. An oil with a viscosity of ~10/11 (cSt) or so is what you would have with a something close to a 5-30 weight. That, just isn't gonna cut it. You're honestly gonna sit there and tell me that start up is as detrimental to our motors as ripping through the gears under full load with tons of heat at 8500 RPM when oil is going to be working it's hardest? Are you seriuos right now? You guys HAVE to keep in mind here 99% of the general information you guys are reading is for the average person and a daily driven vehicle. Not, a 800+ hp turbocharged highly modified engine.

Other than determining your own cSt number you prefer, everything I have posted is 100% factual information that cannot be disputed, and put into practical, useful terms. It is applied to our motors, with our clearance, given the assumption that you don't drive it like a pussy and it was built correctly. I think I'll end on this one.

You're mis-using terms as well as providing inaccurate statements at the same time. Shear is much more appropriately used as a quality term over a period of time meant to operate under a given set of stresses and heat ranges. You cannot compare the shear quality of a 10-30 oil to a 15-40/15-50/20-50 or w/e. That's apples to oranges. A shear quality is something you need to look at after the proper weight has been decided. You're not using the right information here Kracin, once again you're doing like others do and just posting up general information and terms w/o applying it to our specifics.

An oil's weight range is DIRECTLY correlated to the viscosity (specifically cSt) it will be at, given X temperatures. The cSt rating we're needing is ~17+ at 212*F (100*C) which is the standard testing temperature on just about every motor oil sold. Our motors run ~240*F and up. I say 17 b/c that is the number I have come up with, from my research, and the clearances I run on the motors I build, which are nothing special or super secret. Straight off the bat, 100%, this eliminates damn near every oil under 30 weight for our motors, especially for people that actually DRIVE them.. An oil with a viscosity of ~10/11 (cSt) or so is what you would have with a something close to a 5-30 weight. That, just isn't gonna cut it. You're honestly gonna sit there and tell me that start up is as detrimental to our motors as ripping through the gears under full load with tons of heat at 8500 RPM when oil is going to be working it's hardest? Are you seriuos right now? You guys HAVE to keep in mind here 99% of the general information you guys are reading is for the average person and a daily driven vehicle. Not, a 800+ hp turbocharged highly modified engine.

Other than determining your own cSt number you prefer, everything I have posted is 100% factual information that cannot be disputed, and put into practical, useful terms. It is applied to our motors, with our clearance, given the assumption that you don't drive it like a pussy and it was built correctly. I think I'll end on this one.

-Jon

you are ending nothing, you are not even talking about the same qualities in the oil. you are speaking purely on viscosity, and the viscosity has hardly anything at all to do with the lubrication properties, and the protection it offers. it may help some in terms of keeping the proper weight of oil flowing through when we are talking about a regular oil that shears down. but when talking about a good synthetic, running a 20 50 in a car that needs something like 5 20 or 5 30 is just overkill for the applications.

Shear stability is a measure of the amount of viscosity an oil may lose during operation. or in other words, when the oil is under pressure and in danger of being squeezed out between the bearing surface, under pressure it will lose some viscosity if it shears, and synthetics resist shearing much much better than regular. after that point its up to the additives to take care of the beraings. oils that have large amounts of VII are oils that will shear easily, and synethetics contain barely any VII which is why they resist shearing

and no, the information being read is not for a daily driven street vehicle but for high performance vehicles.

i think you are absolutely full of shit, just spouting off numbers about the centistoke of the oil when in reality once you hit higher operating temperatures the difference between the 30 weight and 50 weight comes down to barely anything.

the real damage is being done up until you hit those ideal operating temps where the cooling system is keeping up with the heat of the oil.

the oil is tested at 212 deg, true, and 300 some degrees as well, but the cst rating will drop so far from the high levels that it makes the higher weight oil basically the same as the lower weight oil at the same operating temperatures, the differences are when the oil is getting up to that temperature.

sure you can spout off some numbers, but you don't understand what it means to say what rating "we are needing", you still aren't taking into account that every engine might need something different based on the prior use and wear on it up until high operating temps.

and when the motor is being ripped on at 8500 rpm, and your oil is working its hardest, the thinner oil will operate THE EXACT SAME as a thicker oil becaues at the high temps the cst rating drops to juts a 1-2 point difference, which is ridiculously insignificant, it comes down to the additives and anti wear agents, shear qualities, and barrier qualities of the oils to protect the bearings when comparing two different weight oils.

Okay, I think I personally am going to either try the Rotella T6, the AMSOIL Signature Series 100% Synthetic 10W-30, or the AMSOIL AMO 10W-40 Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil. For the mods I have listed below, any opinions on my best choice?

I do want to add that I currently have an oil loss issue the I can't trace at this point. My current guesses are the turbo seals, the valve stem seals, or worst case the piston rings, but I just haven't had the time or money lately to track down the issue. Due to the oil loss that I had been seeing, I have been using the Mobil 1 15w50 to attempt to slow the oil loss, but in the end my oil pressures stay that much higher and I would like to lower them for normal driving.

Okay, I think I personally am going to either try the Rotella T6, the AMSOIL Signature Series 100% Synthetic 10W-30, or the AMSOIL AMO 10W-40 Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil. For the mods I have listed below, any opinions on my best choice?

I do want to add that I currently have an oil loss issue the I can't trace at this point. My current guesses are the turbo seals, the valve stem seals, or worst case the piston rings, but I just haven't had the time or money lately to track down the issue. Due to the oil loss that I had been seeing, I have been using the Mobil 1 15w50 to attempt to slow the oil loss, but in the end my oil pressures stay that much higher and I would like to lower them for normal driving.

those are fine choices as long as you are monitoring your pressures and temps.

i would check things in this order, valve stem seals, turbo seals, valve seats (can run a good engine cleaner like bg44k to try and correct it if the stem seals and turbo seals are both good) and piston rings should be the very last thing to go that would cause oil consumption by burning.

after seeing several 'motor oil' discussions lately, i decided to inquire directly with Amsoil, as i have been considering trying an Amsoil product next. their response to my inquiry left a little to be desired, but i thought i'd share it basically as another data point to use for guidance.

here is the correspondence:

"hi, am wondering if you could answer a few questions regarding Amsoil product recommendations. i own a 1994 toyota supra turbo that is highly modified and making close 1000hp at the wheels. the engine is fully built with all forged internals, and is running on E85. car is a weekend fair weather car, and will see less than 5000mi annually. i am currently using Brad Penn motor oil, and am interested in trying Amsoil. i'm wondering:

1. which Amsoil motor oil would you recommend for best protection (i am not concerned with emissions or street legality)?

2. how often would you recommend oil changes?

3. many in my online car community discuss which motor oil to use. some recommend using commercial or "diesel" oil certified CI4 Plus - what do you think about this recommendation? any additional info you wish to volunteer is appreciated.

and keep in mind, supra enthusiasts are generally a bit obsessive, and are not afraid of spending a little extra for "the best" parts/materials for their hobby. your guidance could earn new customers!

thank you sincerely!
craig"

response:

"Craig,

Thank you for taking the time to contact AMSOIL with your questions. Sorry for the delayed reply to your email.

The best oil for this application would be our Dominator 10W-30 Racing Oil (product code RD30). The AMSOIL RD30 is fortified with a very high amount of ZDDP antiwear additives for maximum protection. It also is very shear stable and resistant to thermal breakdown. As far as drain intervals are concerned, we recommend following the manufacturer recommended drain interval.

Some engine builders have recommended using a diesel rated engine oil, mostly due to the fact that it has a higher amount of the antiwear additives, but the RD30 actually has a higher amount than oils meeting the API CI-4+ specification.

Government cannot give anything to anybody that it doesn't first take from somebody else. Whenever somebody receives something without working for it, somebody else has to work for it without receiving. The worst thing that can happen to a nation is for half of the people to get the idea they don't have to work because somebody else will work for them, and the other half to get the idea that it does no good to work because they don't get to enjoy the fruits of their labor.- Adrian Rogers

i wouldn't really talk to the amsoil dealers directly.... if they give advice that will void manufacturer warranty information, or advice that goes against their own product, they could be liable for damages that happen. that is the same way it happens with shops if you ask them what oil they put in cars.... its always dealer stock oil.

i'm also not impressed with the way amsoil sells their products, through a pyramid scheme of sorts involving recruiting new sales people to increase your profits and sell more product.

fortunately its actually a good product with lots of third party testing, but just like any other oil company they will always steer you towards manufacturer shit and warranty safe instructions

even if valvoline sells you redline, and the redline product itself says to change the oil at 8000 miles..... and your manufacturer says to change it at 4000... redline will say to change it at 4000, because thats what the manufacturer wants... they don't care, you change it sooner, they make money.

after seeing several 'motor oil' discussions lately, i decided to inquire directly with Amsoil, as i have been considering trying an Amsoil product next. their response to my inquiry left a little to be desired, but i thought i'd share it basically as another data point to use for guidance.

here is the correspondence:

"hi, am wondering if you could answer a few questions regarding Amsoil product recommendations. i own a 1994 toyota supra turbo that is highly modified and making close 1000hp at the wheels. the engine is fully built with all forged internals, and is running on E85. car is a weekend fair weather car, and will see less than 5000mi annually. i am currently using Brad Penn motor oil, and am interested in trying Amsoil. i'm wondering:

1. which Amsoil motor oil would you recommend for best protection (i am not concerned with emissions or street legality)?

2. how often would you recommend oil changes?

3. many in my online car community discuss which motor oil to use. some recommend using commercial or "diesel" oil certified CI4 Plus - what do you think about this recommendation? any additional info you wish to volunteer is appreciated.

and keep in mind, supra enthusiasts are generally a bit obsessive, and are not afraid of spending a little extra for "the best" parts/materials for their hobby. your guidance could earn new customers!

thank you sincerely!
craig"

response:

"Craig,

Thank you for taking the time to contact AMSOIL with your questions. Sorry for the delayed reply to your email.

The best oil for this application would be our Dominator 10W-30 Racing Oil (product code RD30). The AMSOIL RD30 is fortified with a very high amount of ZDDP antiwear additives for maximum protection. It also is very shear stable and resistant to thermal breakdown. As far as drain intervals are concerned, we recommend following the manufacturer recommended drain interval.

Some engine builders have recommended using a diesel rated engine oil, mostly due to the fact that it has a higher amount of the antiwear additives, but the RD30 actually has a higher amount than oils meeting the API CI-4+ specification.

i wouldn't really talk to the amsoil dealers directly.... if they give advice that will void manufacturer warranty information, or advice that goes against their own product, they could be liable for damages that happen. that is the same way it happens with shops if you ask them what oil they put in cars.... its always dealer stock oil.

i'm also not impressed with the way amsoil sells their products, through a pyramid scheme of sorts involving recruiting new sales people to increase your profits and sell more product.

fortunately its actually a good product with lots of third party testing, but just like any other oil company they will always steer you towards manufacturer shit and warranty safe instructions

even if valvoline sells you redline, and the redline product itself says to change the oil at 8000 miles..... and your manufacturer says to change it at 4000... redline will say to change it at 4000, because thats what the manufacturer wants... they don't care, you change it sooner, they make money.

the real data is in testing the oil yourself.

thanks for the email though craig

yeah, my pleasure... agree with your other points too.

Originally Posted by runs11's

is there a reason why you want to change from brad penn??

Originally Posted by Kracin

probably just a ploy to get information out of them.

lol, no ploy. no 'real' reason i'm interested in switching. i'm as confused as anyone regarding any potential benefit of one oil vs another; and like Ian mentioned, Amsoil's products seem to perform well in 3rd party testing. so i've been thinking of trying an Amsoil product for a while; having said that, however, it appears that my 1000 mile stock bottom end has developed rod nock. i'm not intending to imply that is related to the oil; just a convenient time to switch maybe, as i have a stroker motor going in here in a couple weeks.

I seriously doubt most people here have a 800hp car that they are driven constantly at (6000 - ) 8500rpm

Originally Posted by Kracin

you are ending nothing, you are not even talking about the same qualities in the oil. you are speaking purely on viscosity, and the viscosity has hardly anything at all to do with the lubrication properties, and the protection it offers. it may help some in terms of keeping the proper weight of oil flowing through when we are talking about a regular oil that shears down. but when talking about a good synthetic, running a 20 50 in a car that needs something like 5 20 or 5 30 is just overkill for the applications.

Shear stability is a measure of the amount of viscosity an oil may lose during operation. or in other words, when the oil is under pressure and in danger of being squeezed out between the bearing surface, under pressure it will lose some viscosity if it shears, and synthetics resist shearing much much better than regular. after that point its up to the additives to take care of the beraings. oils that have large amounts of VII are oils that will shear easily, and synethetics contain barely any VII which is why they resist shearing

and no, the information being read is not for a daily driven street vehicle but for high performance vehicles.

i think you are absolutely full of shit, just spouting off numbers about the centistoke of the oil when in reality once you hit higher operating temperatures the difference between the 30 weight and 50 weight comes down to barely anything.

the real damage is being done up until you hit those ideal operating temps where the cooling system is keeping up with the heat of the oil.

the oil is tested at 212 deg, true, and 300 some degrees as well, but the cst rating will drop so far from the high levels that it makes the higher weight oil basically the same as the lower weight oil at the same operating temperatures, the differences are when the oil is getting up to that temperature.

sure you can spout off some numbers, but you don't understand what it means to say what rating "we are needing", you still aren't taking into account that every engine might need something different based on the prior use and wear on it up until high operating temps.

and when the motor is being ripped on at 8500 rpm, and your oil is working its hardest, the thinner oil will operate THE EXACT SAME as a thicker oil becaues at the high temps the cst rating drops to juts a 1-2 point difference, which is ridiculously insignificant, it comes down to the additives and anti wear agents, shear qualities, and barrier qualities of the oils to protect the bearings when comparing two different weight oils.

to add on

at around 150C (i.e. high heat) a 30 weight oil is going to be around 3-4 cst, a 40 weight oil becomes 4-5 cst, so marginal that it will barely make a measurable difference. What does matter at that point is sheer ability, the more unstable an oil is, the more wear you get.

Basically you can see that the normal op temp range are all really close to each other, it's the cold start (well hell that's not even "real" cold start unless you live in death valley) that has the most variance.

it depends on how you run the vehicle. weekend warrior or track vehicle + okay with a long ass warm-up period than go ahead and use a 40 or 50 weight. But for most people who actually put miles on and hit a few seconds of single turbo boost on the highway the added protection doesn't outweigh the cold startup protection you loose.

agm you make me laugh! I think aside from how Amsoil sells its oil, they do continually up date and improve there oil because they are a smaller company and are an innovative leader in the market. Like the AMSOIL Sr. Technical Service Representative said, a thin oil with ZDDP will do the trick, Just like Kracin and Craig have been saying. I have a boat with twin 454 that run for long periods of time (2 to 4 hours) around 4000rpm's with flat tappets and it requires the same oil application as the AMSOIL rep mentioned for the 1000 plus hp Supra. As mentioned before though 90 percent of the Supra community really only needs a PAO or Ester based Synthetic 5-30W oil.

I seen bunch of articles on how Mobile one change their formula, and is no longer true synthetic. In any case, you should not run 15k miles on a turbo car w/o oil change.

dont spread bad info.

after 8k miles on 5w-30 i had an oil analysis done that showed 0% breakdown and more than 4,000 miles of additives remaining in the oil. the only thing that would require the oil to be changed was how hard i was running the car for the entire 8k miles, showing slightly higher than average wear particles in the oil, which is normal for engines that are run much harder than average (which is much harder than a lot of friends who drive their supras for comparison).

what info do you have that says a good synethetic with proper additives and high levels of zddp cannot run 15k miles? none. gtfo

just that if this is better then the regular mobil 1 i would go this route for the hell of it because its 30 bucks for 5 quarts at walmart LOL

if you run a synethetic oil and you don't frequently track your car every other weekend, then you are throwing money out the window by changing every 2k miles on a quality synthetic. and possibly doing more harm than good as a good broken in synethetic oil will release more and better additives to keep bearing life up, as opposed to a fresh oil as additives are released through heat and pressure on the oil over time.

your choice to do whatever, but just like i tell everyone else. don't believe anyones word for it, go read some truthful articles on oils