IRC Meetups/2005/September/September14RawLog

[17:02] <photomatt> okay, <meetup>
[17:03] <photomatt> we've got a full plate today :)
[17:03] <photomatt> I suppose I'll start with the redesign progress
[17:03] <photomatt> and feedback
[17:03] <photomatt> here are the latest mockups
[17:03] <photomatt> http://projects.iammattthomas.com/wordpress/050912[17:03] <photomatt> if you click through it goes through different variations
[17:04] <photomatt> of links and justification
[17:04] <photomatt> so digest and share your thoughts :)
[17:04] * Joins: davidchait
[17:04] <coffee2code> what happened here: http://projects.iammattthomas.com/wordpress/050912/5.html[17:05] <coffee2code> ah, nevermind
[17:05] <skeltoac> photomatt: The knifing effect is gone :)
[17:06] <ringmaster> I think that the informality of left-justification more suits the project.
[17:06] <geoffrey> i like 4, except drop the underlines from the links and make them bold
[17:06] <geoffrey> I prefer it being fully justified
[17:07] <coffee2code> i like 4, w/ the underlines and no bold :)
[17:07] <mdawaffe> 3
[17:08] <mdawaffe> are we even going to find a plurality here? :)
[17:09] <skeltoac> If there were a left-justified, underlined and non-bold links version, it would be my choice
[17:09] <skeltoac> er, left-aligned. Not justified. :)
[17:09] <mindamp> fully justified is a def. a must
[17:10] <photomatt> okay, here's a second version with a few tweaks
[17:10] <photomatt> http://projects.iammattthomas.com/wordpress/050912b/[17:10] <skeltoac> Justification of narrow columns hurts readability imo.
[17:10] <photomatt> justified, not bold, underlines, and the funny header is gone
[17:11] <photomatt> I think it's getting very close to what the final will look like
[17:11] <geoffrey> the header needs some colour...
[17:11] <photomatt> the next step is to start mocking up what other pages will look like
[17:11] <photomatt> forums, codex, blog, download, etc
[17:11] <trevorturk> can i suggest that Themes and Plugins get their own pages, instead of being under the Extend heading...? i don't know if this is the right time...
[17:11] <geoffrey> I'm not sure what colour, but, it needs some colour
[17:12] <trevorturk> i also agree that the header needs a little color
[17:12] <ringmaster> I wasn't crazy about the original color choices, but I miss something darker at the top of the second. The blue links are much nicer.
[17:12] <coffee2code> I'm still for 4. I like the way the logo sits on 4 as opposed to the alt version, as well as liking the color (or some color)
[17:12] <photomatt> we're trying to evoke an old-time print feel
[17:13] <ringmaster> Put "10cents" at the top. :)
[17:14] <geoffrey> :)
[17:14] <trevorturk> i agree with coffee2code about the logo sitting better in v4
[17:14] * Parts: geoffrey
[17:14] <skeltoac> The list bullets are great! Very original but very simple.
[17:14] * Joins: geoffrey
[17:15] <tunicwriter> No offense, old-time print feel is great... but this is ... The internet... and most people won't care what you are trying for if it's devoid of color and some sort of... energy >_>
[17:15] <mdawaffe> i like the colored links - old time print + new fangled medium
[17:16] <geoffrey> it's the header being white that makes it feel lipeless
[17:16] * Joins: relle
[17:16] <geoffrey> *lifeless
[17:16] <photomatt> ringmaster: I would never raise the price!
[17:16] <mdawaffe> (that's a hyphen, not a minus)
[17:17] <photomatt> alright, any more feedback before we move to the next topic?
[17:17] <ringmaster> photomatt: D'oh! "Take One!"
[17:17] <photomatt> mdawaffe: changes to forums?
[17:17] <mdawaffe> nothing to report
[17:18] <Podz> topic deletion is broke
[17:18] <Podz> or it was last time i tried
[17:18] <mdawaffe> i think thats fixed in the code
[17:19] <photomatt> okay I'll upgrade to the latest in a few minutes
[17:20] <photomatt> next up is a message from lorelle
[17:21] <photomatt> " Thanks again for cleaning up Codex and Forum searches - but need links to Codex on results page"
[17:21] <relle> also, I just did a search for "includes" in the codex and a bunch of trac stuff came up as an answer.
[17:21] <relle> I thought trac was removed from the results
[17:22] <photomatt> not currently
[17:22] <photomatt> should it be?
[17:22] <mdawaffe> yes
[17:22] <relle> I thought it was discussed at the last meeting to remove it.
[17:23] <mdawaffe> no user will care about trac
[17:23] <photomatt> okay it's gone
[17:23] <relle> and we need a link back to the codex.
[17:23] <relle> I have not gotten the search results I needed and then searched a few more times and then had to back up to get back to the codex. Not intuitive.
[17:24] <photomatt> does the back button work?
[17:24] <relle> yes, but I backup through 4-6 pages
[17:24] <photomatt> the deeper issue is the codex should be what you get when you click "docs"
[17:24] <photomatt> which should be addressed in the redesign
[17:25] <tunicwriter> You shouldn't have to press back, that's counter-intuitive for someone that just went through pages of a search or multiple searches.
[17:25] <relle> I think that docs link in the redesign should go to the codex.
[17:25] <relle> But for now, any way to just add a link for the search results page? Probably not, but it's worth asking.
[17:27] <photomatt> a back to codex link wouldn't make sense in some contexts
[17:27] <photomatt> and also it would need to save what page you were actually on in the codex
[17:27] <photomatt> to be useful
[17:28] <geoffrey> what I think is needed for the search is some way of searching *only* the forums, *only* the codex, etc.
[17:28] <photomatt> possibly
[17:29] <Podz> that would be very nice
[17:29] <photomatt> it'd be nice to have some sort of tabs to let you drill down
[17:29] <photomatt> I'll give it some thought
[17:29] <photomatt> next up: " Holes in Codex Documentation - needs a kick start - ideas?"
[17:30] <relle> sorry
[17:30] <relle> electricity is not steady here yet.
[17:31] * Quits: geoffrey
[17:31] <photomatt> relle: you're on, holes in documentation
[17:31] <ringmaster> Darn moths.
[17:32] <relle> I hope the power holds for the wifi.
[17:32] <relle> we need some kind of promo event to kick up documentation and hole filling in the Codex.
[17:32] <relle> In fact, we need some kind of major event to pull everyone together again for the fall.
[17:32] <relle> Is there anything in the works and how can Codex be a part of it?
[17:33] <tunicwriter> The race to one million could be an event... just... throwing that out there...
[17:34] <photomatt> relle_: maybe a dev blog post?
[17:34] <ringmaster> Dare I ask how to find the holes?
[17:34] <relle> that would help docs, but we need some jazz. something fun, something exciting.
[17:34] * Parts: davidchait
[17:35] <tunicwriter> ringmaster: There was wp-docs thread on it
[17:35] <relle> ringmaster: I emailed a list of possible holes in the docs mailing list.
[17:35] <tunicwriter> ringmaster: http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-docs/2005-September/000943.html[17:35] <Podz> holes include MCincubus' hooks list
[17:36] <relle> half written docs, and functions are also in there.
[17:36] <ringmaster> I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that dev docs shouldn't be in the Codex at all.
[17:36] <relle> If there was some exciting event coming up, then we can use that to spur on enthusiasm for the docs.
[17:36] <trevorturk> i like having dev docs in the codex!
[17:36] <relle> ringmaster: a lot of people really like them there and want more.
[17:37] <relle> Certainly not everything but the stuff that helps with plugins and stuff are good.
[17:38] <relle> photomatt: is there any big event other than 1.6 coming up?
[17:41] * Quits: mindamp ("Leaving"?)
[17:43] <photomatt> relle: not really, 1.6 and the redesign
[17:43] <relle> we need something.
[17:44] <photomatt> sorry for the delay, someone came in my office
[17:44] * Quits: relle (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)?)
[17:44] <photomatt> skeltoac: want to talk about " User system, specifically adding users from outside users.php" ?
[17:44] <skeltoac> I just wanted to /briefly/ ask if anyone besides myself has a need for a function wp_add_user() and what considerations people have about this.
[17:44] <skeltoac> Importers sometimes need to add users to accommodate multi-author blogs.
[17:45] <ringmaster> skeltoac: Can't you just include capabilities.php and use the cap classes?
[17:45] <photomatt> skeltoac: I believe rboren added some functions to that effect last night
[17:45] <mdawaffe> skeltoac: http://trac.wordpress.org/changeset/2872 ?
[17:45] <photomatt> he's been cleaning up the MT import
[17:45] <rboren> http://trac.wordpress.org/changeset/2872[17:45] <photomatt> wordpress: we fix your problems before you have them.
[17:46] <skeltoac> photomatt: Yeah, it's always the nightly of the day I hit the problem, somebody else commits a change :-D
[17:46] <rboren> If you need more API, lemme know.
[17:46] <skeltoac> I'll check it. Thanks, Ryan.
[17:46] <rboren> Goal: no queries in the importers.
[17:46] <photomatt> sometimes it's spooky how the WP community can have the same idea at the same time in different places
[17:47] <skeltoac> Exactly!
[17:47] <ringmaster> Mmm. Pretty code.
[17:47] <rboren> Getting better.
[17:47] <rboren> Got to delete lots of stuff. Always fun.
[17:47] <skeltoac> That ends my topic. Thanks all.
[17:47] <photomatt> once the importers are done, we can start the final push to 1.6
[17:47] <photomatt> bug fixing the wysiwyg and polishing things
[17:48] <trevorturk> :)
[17:48] <coffee2code> is there a rough ETA on that?
[17:48] <rboren> More people helping == faster :-)
[17:48] <Podz> photomatt:: please no surprises at all in whatever default. none. at all.
[17:48] <rboren> Adopt an importer.
[17:48] <photomatt> Tuesday
[17:48] <photomatt> I'm not say which Tuesday, but it'll be a Tuesday
[17:48] <relle> this or last.
[17:48] <photomatt> Podz: could you clarify?
[17:48] <relle> ah.
[17:48] <rboren> But that's taco night. How about Wednesday.
[17:48] <Podz> default theme.
[17:48] <ringmaster> Mmm. Tacos.
[17:48] <photomatt> rboren: tacos at my place
[17:49] <mdawaffe> It IS taco night!
[17:49] <trevorturk> can i ask quickly if you guys know anything about tinymce and safari?
[17:49] <photomatt> mdawaffe: come on up
[17:49] <coffee2code> Taco release party!
[17:49] <relle> I like Wednesday - keeps volunteers in the house all weekend.
[17:49] <rboren> And beer? Tacos require beer.
[17:49] <Podz> in fact, lose the current default and go with one with decent css :)
[17:49] <mdawaffe> photomatt: booyah
[17:49] <trevorturk> Podz, do a lot of people use the defauly?
[17:49] <photomatt> okay, since it's been put on the floor
[17:49] <trevorturk> *default
[17:49] <relle> trevorturk: yes
[17:49] <photomatt> podz is suggestion we ditch kubrick
[17:49] <photomatt> *suggesting
[17:49] <ringmaster> Yes, please kill the default theme.
[17:49] <Podz> trevorturk:: dozens try, post to the forums in despair
[17:50] <trevorturk> really???
[17:50] <relle> Y-E-S
[17:50] <Podz> classic, clean, no-funk css
[17:50] <trevorturk> wow - i would have thought most people picked a different theme
[17:50] <Podz> thats what we need
[17:50] <relle> It's great but it has screwed up all the themes that base themselves on it. the questions plague.
[17:50] <trevorturk> is k2 doing anything for you folks?
[17:50] <Podz> trevorturk:: its the one they try playing with
[17:50] <mdawaffe> it is fairly complicated
[17:50] <photomatt> Podz: I'm more inclined to improve what we have rather than tossing out everything and starting over YET again
[17:50] <trevorturk> yeah, i guess you're right
[17:50] <stevecooley> k2's nice
[17:51] <relle> I think default could be cleaned up to look basically the same but have none of the troublesome features - and then have a different full version as an option
[17:51] <trevorturk> i haven't looked at it too closely, but i noticed that there have been some commits related it it... http://boren.nu/archives/2005/08/30/commit-this/[17:51] <trevorturk> possibly related to it
[17:52] <Podz> photomatt:: 1.6 (and my cash says it's not that number) will be a big step forward. You really want the 1.5 theme associated with it "Hey - it looks just the same!" they will say. Drop it all. Go with good solid code.
[17:52] <relle> totally agree.
[17:52] <photomatt> Podz: good solid code and the visual look are completely different
[17:52] <Podz> new code ? new look :)
[17:52] <relle> It's a good theme but way too complicated and advanced for the typical want to mess with it person.
[17:52] <trevorturk> i don't think there is anything wrong with going with a new theme, just keep the old one available with all of the other nice themes that are available
[17:52] <photomatt> also, it may be hard for us to believe, but I still get compliments on WP's default theme
[17:52] <photomatt> to people outside the community it's pretty nice
[17:52] <photomatt> we've just all seen it a million times
[17:53] <ringmaster> As would be any of the the themes in Extend.
[17:53] <relle> It's fine, it's just full of massive trouble for full version users.
[17:53] <skeltoac> True. It's not bad to have a thumbprint like Kubrick. It would just be nice to clean up the code.
[17:53] <rboren> It's not a tweaker
[17:53] <trevorturk> i'd suggest NOT messing with the CSS of the existing kubrick, if you change, change to something else
[17:53] <relle> The new presentation screen will make things easier to choose.
[17:53] <rboren> It's not a tweaker's theme, it's a default theme.
[17:53] <trevorturk> otherwise people will get confused
[17:53] <Podz> basic users come to us for help. Either way, please don't spring a surprise on them - because that gets us too :)
[17:54] <photomatt> okay, well in my mind not surprising them is not changing it
[17:54] <photomatt> can you suggest people build off classic rather than default?
[17:54] <relle> Then I vote for cleaning it up and letting it look the same. It is totally bulked with unnessary stuff. A cleaned up code will look the same.
[17:54] <relle> As a compromise.
[17:54] <ringmaster> As if anyone who tries to tweak goes to the forum to ask what they should tweak before they dive into the code.
[17:54] <trevorturk> relle, wouldn't people get confused as to which theme they had?
[17:55] <relle> It's the new version of the theme ;-)
[17:55] <Podz> I would - but it's too late by then. I just didn't want a change on WP2.0 launch :)
[17:55] <trevorturk> i mean, having kubrick, kubrick with clean css, and k2 seems a little crazy to me
[17:55] <photomatt> one thing I would note about changing the code, one thing about the default is that it's very well browser tested
[17:55] <photomatt> so any changes would need to be similarly tested
[17:55] <skeltoac> I've done some work on a functions.php to make Kubrick moddable through an admin screen. Header image and color first, maybe more later.
[17:55] <photomatt> but I'm completely open to patches that clean up code, in the default theme or otherwise
[17:55] <photomatt> so bring them on
[17:56] <photomatt> however it is not productive just to diss it without being constructive
[17:56] <rboren> Show us the code.
[17:56] <relle> My biggest complaint is the massive useless tabs at the end of sentences and other clean up issues - not necessarily cleaning the code,
[17:56] <relle> Though I would like to see the >> arrows changed as that causes a lot of problems.
[17:57] <photomatt> so, too much indentation
[17:57] <relle> It doesn't cross browsers well and is a hack.
[17:57] <photomatt> what about the arrows?
[17:57] <Podz> matt - I meant that if you decided to slide a new theme in, that is great for a launch. It's crap for support though. It's like the h2 list tag being slid in - causes loads of posts which is needless
[17:57] <photomatt> Podz: well right now there are no plans for a new theme
[17:57] <photomatt> in 1.6789
[17:57] <Podz> :D
[17:57] <Podz> 2
[17:57] <relle> photomatt: tabs at the END of code and sentence lines. I cleared out over 40 of those in one template.
[17:57] <relle> That kind of cleanup.
[17:58] <photomatt> relle: gotcha
[17:58] <Podz> run it through the optimiser ?
[17:58] <relle> please!
[17:58] <photomatt> I'll look if I can clean up some default whitespace later
[17:58] <rboren> Easily done with a script or code purtifier tool.
[17:58] <Podz> flumpcakes
[17:58] <photomatt> I am a code purtifier :)
[17:58] <relle> and get rid of the hacks in the sidebar with the arrows as bullets.
[17:59] <ringmaster> relle: Ok, so basically redesign the theme, then?
[17:59] <relle> And there needs to be a better "help" file in the CSS header that explains about the header and use of graphics for color background. Totally unusual use.
[17:59] <ringmaster> :)
[17:59] <relle> no.
[17:59] <trevorturk> why spend the time on this theme that people are probably sick of by now?
[17:59] <relle> >> can be replaced with graphic arrows. ;-)
[17:59] <stevecooley> That'll teach you designers for using fancy things
[17:59] <ringmaster> ...fancy things that scale in ems.
[18:00] <Podz> trevorturk:: because another few tens of thousands will download it, and we like a quiet forum :)
[18:00] <relle> amen
[18:00] <rboren> You'll never have a quiet forum.
[18:00] <rboren> Unless we just stop right now.
[18:00] <Podz> well ..... close to :)
[18:00] <photomatt> ESR has also said he hates all wordpress themes
[18:01] <trevorturk> who is ESR?
[18:01] <Podz> who is esr ?
[18:01] <ringmaster> ESR is a smelly ass.
[18:01] <trevorturk> jinx!
[18:01] <mdawaffe> content: "\00BB \0020"; - that really seems the right way to do it to me
[18:01] <ringmaster> He lives near here.
[18:01] <photomatt> mdawaffe: that's actually correct per CSS spec
[18:01] <rboren> Eric Raymond
[18:01] <photomatt> generated content
[18:01] <mdawaffe> yeah
[18:02] <tunicwriter> They're called right-arrow quotes, btw.
[18:02] <mdawaffe> that's why I like it :)
[18:02] <rboren> http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=214[18:03] <rboren> For you Kubrick haters.
[18:03] <trevorturk> what's this guy TALKING about???
[18:04] <photomatt> haha, moving on
[18:04] <photomatt> Podz: " Volunteers needed to help Codex quarterly PDF's. Status."
[18:04] <Podz> I can't disagree that much ..
[18:04] <Podz> ! me ?
[18:05] <Podz> Who wrote that for me then ....eh ?
[18:05] <Podz> I have one volunteer - I hope
[18:05] <Podz> thats it
[18:05] <relle> I'm doing my best to get the docs ready so they will go into the saved file as best as they can for the "moment".
[18:05] <Podz> I've been too busy on other stuff to redo the whole pdf thing and unless help does happen it will wither and die
[18:06] <relle> I'll be tearing into them probably next week. After the pressure of the storm is down a little more.
[18:07] <Podz> okay ... moving on :)
[18:07] <Podz> 7 - Ringmaster ?
[18:07] <ringmaster> I have two concerns in regard to licensing of Codex.
[18:07] <ringmaster> The first is whether there is a requirement in the license to include copyright information with any derivative works.
[18:07] <ringmaster> The second is how the use of the GPL license would require derivative works to distribute their "source", especially if that source is printed material.
[18:07] <ringmaster> I'm not opposed to GPL, but I think it's ambiguous on these points, even if the intent is clear.
[18:08] <ringmaster> I'm of the opinion that we either: Clarify our use of the GPL for licensing the use, modification, and distribution of Codex...
[18:08] <ringmaster> OR, preferably, we choose a modern license that is better compatible with documentation, such as something from Creative Commons or even the GFDL.
[18:08] <photomatt> okay the background for using the GPL is
[18:08] <ringmaster> Your thoughts?
[18:08] <photomatt> is that we understood that if we used CC or GFDL we couldn't take text from the codex and put it in WP
[18:08] <photomatt> because the GPL and GFDL are incompatible
[18:09] <photomatt> so it seemed cleaner to keep it under the same license
[18:09] <mdawaffe> can we release it under both?
[18:09] <photomatt> I actually don't care what the license is, as long as the intent is "we can use this in WP" and "it's open source"
[18:10] <photomatt> if we want to quad-license it, I'm fine with that
[18:10] <trevorturk> i feel like leaving it as GPL should be fine - who's going to sue wordpress?
[18:10] * mdawaffe knocks wood
[18:11] <ringmaster> I think that most contributors are interested in seeing their works remain free, even after they hit paper presses.
[18:11] * relle shutters
[18:11] <stevecooley> well, you do have some for-profit companies starting to build apps around wordpress
[18:11] <relle> free is good. Abused is coming our way.
[18:11] <photomatt> why is relle taking pictures?
[18:11] <relle> huh?
[18:11] <skeltoac> heh
[18:11] <trevorturk> hissssss
[18:11] <rboren> Bad pun.
[18:11] <relle> bad
[18:11] <photomatt> sorry :)
[18:11] <skeltoac> next time, shudder :)
[18:11] <trevorturk> all i'm saying is keep is simple, everybody gets the gist of GPL, i think
[18:12] <ringmaster> I would be more interested in what happens when it comes time for WordPress to protect its interests.
[18:12] <ringmaster> In this case, the GPL doesn't seem clear for documentation.
[18:12] <photomatt> I don't see how documentation could be abused, it's intent is to help people use WordPress
[18:12] <Podz> true - who can WP sue ? No-one
[18:12] <photomatt> people redistributing the documentation doesn't make WP less easy to use
[18:13] <trevorturk> what is the worry regarding the codex license? i mean, what could happen that would be bad, that one could prevent by using a different license?
[18:13] <Podz> matt - can I sell your code ?
[18:13] <ringmaster> Sure, but redistribution via print makes it difficult to reincorporate any useful additions, for example.
[18:13] <photomatt> Podz: yes, and people do
[18:13] <relle> threats keep coming up that someone can just take the whole codex and publilsh it under their name or just "because they can".
[18:14] <Podz> thats it ^
[18:14] <photomatt> someone can do the same with wordpress
[18:14] <rboren> What's wrong with that?
[18:14] <stevecooley> books are dead anyway
[18:14] <skeltoac> And if it's worth the cost of publishing it, there's no harm.
[18:14] <trevorturk> yeah, i don't see why you would care
[18:14] <stevecooley> for technical documentation, anyway
[18:14] <ringmaster> And that would be fine, except with print its more difficult to get the changes that were made in the "source" format that GPL requires.
[18:14] <photomatt> someone linked the other day to someone charging > $100 for WordPress MU
[18:14] <rboren> Include CD.
[18:14] <Podz> because the people that are worried are the ones who have put in all the work ?
[18:14] <rboren> With Codex on it.
[18:14] <skeltoac> The only harm is if they falsify the content, making the forums explode with people confused by the book.
[18:15] <trevorturk> include a link!
[18:15] <rboren> That's some some pubs do.
[18:15] <trevorturk> you have to leave the copyright info, right?
[18:15] <ringmaster> Shouldn't the CD also include the changes made to the original?
[18:15] <rboren> Sure.
[18:15] <trevorturk> so, they leave attribution, and then they can get the source online, no?
[18:15] <photomatt> frankly if someone decided to just publish the codex and sell it they'd be like the people charging money for WP, pretty stupid
[18:16] <photomatt> they wouldn't be worth working with
[18:16] <photomatt> same for anyone who spits in the face of the community that has created everything
[18:16] <rboren> If the publisher set it up in TeX, they could include the TeX sources on a CD.
[18:17] <rboren> That's been done with the Linux Documentation Project stuff many times.
[18:17] <photomatt> I think we should just accept that it'll probably happen at some point, and it'll piss everyone off but not really make a difference
[18:17] <ringmaster> That's fine, as long as the license requires that such a thing is provided with the printed work. And GPL is inadequate for this requirement.
[18:17] <photomatt> and at the same time *encourage* legit book publishers to write about and contribute to WP
[18:18] <relle> I think there must be a way to keep the open source "free" element while having some kind of protection so at least photomatt or the docs team has to give permission for use. Some middle ground instead of an open to stealing invitation.
[18:18] <rboren> The license gives permission.
[18:18] <rboren> Not specific people.
[18:18] <rboren> Nice people will ask though.
[18:18] <photomatt> relle: at the end of the day, that's not open source
[18:18] <stevecooley> well ok then
[18:20] <ringmaster> Ok, so bottom line, a lot of folks have put a lot of work into it. If we find a way to work the license so Codex can be used in WP, will it be applied?
[18:21] <ringmaster> ...and, obviously, remain open-source.
[18:22] <photomatt> I think we'd all be open to that
[18:22] <rboren> Relicensing is a major pain in the ass though.
[18:22] <photomatt> but it sounds like some of the licensing fears wouldn't be addressed by another open source license
[18:23] <rboren> Open source means a loss of control. Gotta deal with that.
[18:23] <rboren> It's a feature.
[18:23] <mdawaffe> OS 4EVAR
[18:24] <photomatt> man, rboren is such a hippie ;)
[18:24] <Podz> in that case
[18:24] <rboren> Peace, love, puff puff give.
[18:24] <rboren> Anyway...
[18:24] <ringmaster> Well, I'm optimistic in the idea that it's an *option*, even if it proves impossible to implement.
[18:24] <Podz> make the warnings on codex about what and how peoples work could be used huge. Stick it in their Welcome. Make it known to them - it's their work, their time. that is only fair
[18:25] <Podz> make it worst case
[18:25] <rboren> Yep.
[18:25] <rboren> Just link to the GPL FAQ.
[18:25] <Podz> you may know - they do not
[18:25] <Podz> NO - real words
[18:26] <Podz> the gpl faq is not easy to read. we need easy, plain, straightforward stuff
[18:26] <rboren> We're talking law. That's about as easy as it gets.
[18:26] * Joins: geeksmakemehot
[18:26] <Podz> and the gpl covers lots of things - every other wp codex with a licence i have seen has some sort of docs gpl
[18:26] <stevecooley> for a coder, haha... law _is_ code
[18:26] <mdawaffe> Do people expect to retain complete control on content they push on a foreign site?
[18:27] <ringmaster> Just out of curiosity, where do we redistribute Codex in WP?
[18:27] <Podz> mdawaffe:: are they told ? explicitly ?
[18:27] <ringmaster> mdawaffe: No, but they expect the license that they contribute under to be maintained.
[18:28] <Podz> there is also nothing yet anywhere open about forum contributions. That is very much needed
[18:29] <Podz> ?
[18:30] <mdawaffe> Podz: what about blog comments? Do you comment on sites w/o exp copyright noitces?
[18:30] <Podz> You wanted docs. All we are askig is that they are properly looked after.
[18:30] <mdawaffe> ringmaster: v true
[18:30] <Podz> mdawaffe:: a forum post could be taken and put into codex by someone else. It has happened. That needs telling too - after all, isn;t this about being open ?
[18:31] <Podz> this makes me wonder just how much Codex _really_ is valued.
[18:32] <mdawaffe> fair enough - just not something i personally worry about much
[18:32] <trevorturk> i value the codex VERY much
[18:32] <trevorturk> i use it all the time
[18:32] <mdawaffe> shite - highly vanued by me!
[18:32] <rboren> It's GPL. Just like the code.
[18:33] <photomatt> Podz: I wouldn't expect the Codex contributors to value their work any less than core WP developers do
[18:33] <Podz> hang on ...
[18:33] <Podz> Code writers are usually savvy people. We are asking ANYONE to help in codex. That is a key difference
[18:34] <Podz> anyway - isn't there an agenda ?
[18:35] <photomatt> yes, relle has the next item, but she dropped off
[18:35] <photomatt> we can put that back when/if she comes back
[18:35] <photomatt> next is a question: "How is wordpress.com going?"
[18:35] <photomatt> I don't know who added that, but it's going pretty well
[18:36] <photomatt> any specific questions? anyone still need an invite?
[18:36] <trevorturk> i'd like one!
[18:36] <rboren> Show the server porn.
[18:36] <photomatt> PM me your name and email
[18:36] <ringmaster> Can a get a pack to hand out at the next Philly blogger meetup?
[18:36] <photomatt> ringmaster: sure
[18:36] <ringmaster> Sweet. :)
[18:36] <geeksmakemehot> I tried to give you one owen ;)
[18:37] <ringmaster> I know, but not for me. This is for the local Blogspot users.
[18:38] <tunicwriter> I need an invite! :o
[18:38] <trevorturk> question - what's the goal of wordpress.com?
[18:38] <trevorturk> to make it easier to have a site powered by wordpress?
[18:38] <photomatt> the idea is
[18:38] <ringmaster> Domination of the universe, I think.
[18:38] <photomatt> I think WordPress is pretty swell
[18:39] <photomatt> I'd love to expand it to a wider audience
[18:39] <photomatt> and I also think development will accelerate because of wp.com
[18:39] <trevorturk> thus, server porn :)
[18:39] <trevorturk> so, it'll be like wordpress hosting?
[18:39] <photomatt> no, really aimed at a much more basic level
[18:40] <photomatt> wordpress hosting would include more customizibility, email, that sort of thing
[18:43] <stevecooley> hello?
[18:43] <mdawaffe> photomatt: when are you aiming for more users?
[18:43] <stevecooley> k
[18:43] <mdawaffe> 10,000+
[18:43] <photomatt> mdawaffe: not until things are more finished
[18:44] <mdawaffe> code? servers?
[18:44] <photomatt> both!
[18:44] <mdawaffe> :)
[18:45] <photomatt> also still figuring out where exactly it fits
[18:45] <photomatt> feedback is always welcome
[18:46] <photomatt> okay, final item: "WRC theme viewer update" stevecooley you're on
[18:46] <stevecooley> Alphaoide and myself have been working on the "other" theme browser
[18:46] <stevecooley> he's been working on the front end, i've been working on the back end
[18:47] <stevecooley> this is my first plugin, which isn't quite ready for display, but
[18:47] <stevecooley> it's been a lot of fun to learn about the plugin API
[18:47] <stevecooley> the codex has been a lifesaver for me
[18:47] <stevecooley> you can check out what Joshua's been up to here:
[18:47] <stevecooley> http://alphaoide.com/dump/[18:47] <stevecooley> it's hooked up to live data yet, but we're getting closer
[18:48] <stevecooley> Shadow's been doing a lot of the legwork on the laborious stuff like screenshots, too
[18:48] <photomatt> nice!
[18:48] <stevecooley> and helping me undo what i do to the server
[18:48] <trevorturk> that looks amazing
[18:48] <photomatt> one note
[18:48] <photomatt> in 1.6 there's a screenshot addition to themes
[18:48] <mdawaffe> ooh... pretty
[18:49] <stevecooley> ah
[18:49] <photomatt> in that it looks for screenshot.* in the theme directory and shows that on the admin if it's there
[18:49] <stevecooley> ah, ok
[18:49] <photomatt> so while you're making screenshots, you may want to add them to the theme itself
[18:49] <stevecooley> will that be in get_theme_data() ?
[18:49] <photomatt> espcially since the ones I make always look bad
[18:49] <photomatt> I think so
[18:49] <stevecooley> ok.
[18:50] <photomatt> is this going to go on themes.wordpress.net?
[18:50] <trevorturk> can i suggest that the screenshots be the same size as in the wp interface? 300x225
[18:50] <stevecooley> I'm really thankful for the documentation on the Codex. I don't think I'd be able to get my head around this as quickly as I am without all the great starter code
[18:50] <stevecooley> photomatt: yeah, themes.wordpress.net
[18:51] <photomatt> awesome :)
[18:51] <ringmaster> Did you get the pack of screenshots I made from the old theme viewer?
[18:51] <stevecooley> trevorturk: that's a good idea, I'll pass that along to Shadow
[18:51] <mdawaffe> stevecooley: http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2005-August/002266.html[18:51] <stevecooley> Ringmaster: I don't know, those would be helpful, probably
[18:52] <mdawaffe> 420x315 so says the email
[18:52] <stevecooley> mdawaffe: thank you
[18:52] <ringmaster> http://asymptomatic.net/temp/wrc_tv_thumbs.zip[18:53] <stevecooley> alphaoide has some code that looks similar to the spec you have laid out there in his code
[18:53] <stevecooley> re: screenshot.*
[18:54] <stevecooley> anyway, I just wanted to give an update since I feel like the stuff I've been working on is starting to really get some traction
[18:54] <stevecooley> Shadow and Alphaoide have been making great progress too
[18:54] <stevecooley> so, thank you for checking it out
[18:54] <trevorturk> looks great
[18:55] <stevecooley> ringmaster, ty for the screenshots
[18:56] <ringmaster> Sure. No problem. Just sititng around. :)
[18:56] <stevecooley> wow, that's a lot of files
[18:57] <ringmaster> No kidding.
[18:57] <stevecooley> I can probably write a script to put these in the right places
[18:57] <ringmaster> I "nicenamed" all the files.
[18:57] <mdawaffe> anything else?
[18:57] <stevecooley> ok, I'll chat with shadow about this..
[18:58] <stevecooley> not from me
[19:00] <photomatt> cool, let's wrap it up then
[19:00] <Podz> I have but I'll table it for next week as it's a revisit to earlier and it's late
[19:00] <photomatt> </meetup>