How to Win an Argument with a Narcissist, Part Two

In Part One, I explained why it’s impossible to win an argument with a narcissist, borderline or psychopath if you engage with them on their level (i.e., an irrational, petulant, belligerent, emotional reasoning, self-absorbed, poo flinging toddler). So how do you really win an argument with a narcissist?

Don’t argue. Don’t trade insults, no matter how tempting. Don’t JADE: justify, argue, defend or explain yourself. Don’t hurl psychiatric labels at them. Don’t send them links to Shrink4Men or CrazyBusters. Don’t try to give them a taste of their own medicine. And don’t try to out-narcissist a narcissist or out-borderline a borderline or out-psychopath a psychopath. If you aren’t personality disordered yourself, you simply cannot out-crazy Crazy. You could try, but it will require you to operate outside of your integrity and then you have to live with that.

In order to win an argument with a narcissist you must first redefine what winning means.

What winning doesn’t mean:

Getting an apology. You might get a non-apology like, “I’m sorry you feel that way,” or “I’m sorry if I offended you.” Variations of these statements don’t reflect remorse. They’re blame shifting non-apologies by which the narcissist is saying you are the one with the problem. The problem is that you’re having an emotional response to the narcissist’s or borderline’s abuse. You should really get some help for that — eye roll. Another blame-shifting non-apology is, “I’m sorry, BUT here’s why it’s really your fault . . .”

Other common non-apologies include blame-spreading, “We both did things that were wrong.” Okay. Try asking the narcissist what she or he did that was wrong. They might be able to parrot back some of your complaints, maybe. Or they’ll hem and haw and get angry all over again because they don’t actually think they did anything wrong. If the narcissist can parrot back what she or he did that was hurtful to you like cheating, lying, assaulting you, etc., then ask the narcissist why it was wrong. Warning: You may want to don some safety equipment before doing so. Odds are the narcissist can’t explain why their behavior was wrong. Even if they know their actions were wrong and hurtful, they often feel justified due to their entitlement and lack of empathy.

Admission of defeat. As discussed in Part One, narcissists et al engage in historical revisionism and whitewashing. They Photoshop their lives just like they Photoshop their Facebook selfies. Losses are retold as victories. When they publicly humiliate themselves by behaving like angry emotional toddlers, they accuse their targets of abusing them or treating them unfairly, or what’s known as DARVO (Deny, Attack and Reverse Victim and Offender).

My narcissistic ex used to say, “I always win.” In reality, no, he didn’t. He had huge public failures. He tripped over his own personality deficits more times than I can count. Over the course of our 7 year relationship there was never a time he didn’t have at least two attorneys on retainer, sometimes more. He was the defendant in several well-deserved civil lawsuits from which he had to lie and buy his way out. But in his narcissist reality distortion bubble, he “won” even when it was clear to objective observers that he had lost and lost spectacularly.

Public recognition of the narcissist’s asshattery. Narcissists, borderlines and psychopaths often conduct smear campaigns against their exes (or current spouses or partners once the Devaluation stage of the relationship has begun). Some people are going to believe Bobby Borderline’s or Nancy Narcissist’s lies, especially their minions, enablers and apologists. It’s one of the hard realities of ending a relationship with someone like that. Set the record straight with the people who matter most to you and let the narcissist remain king or queen of their flying monkey squadron.

Emotionally detaching so that nothing the narcissist does affects you. The narcissist marries your replacement with whom he or she cheated on you? Pffft. You know the hell that awaits your successor, that is if they’re not in hell already. The narcissist or borderline bombs Facebook like a 13-year old girl with “I’ve never been happier” posts with her or his newest soulmate? Pffft. You know it’s all bullshit because narcissists aren’t capable of true happiness, peace and well-being. Sure, they’ll get a temporary high from self-medicating themselves with their newest victim (just like she or he did with you), but it won’t last. The relationship may last for years, but you know very well that the love bombing or idealization stage won’t.

The narcissist is badmouthing you and spreading lies about you? Not caring about a smear campaign is often the toughest act of detachment, but it can be done. Another hard reality of saying goodbye to a narcissist or borderline is that there’s usually collateral loss. You’ll likely lose other relationships — family, mutual friends or even your own friends and family depending upon how manipulative the narcissist is and how gullible and dysfunctional your family and friends are. It will probably sting at first, but ultimately it’s good riddance. Anyone who maintains a friendship with the narcissist may eventually become a weak link in your personal firewall.

Eliminating or greatly reducing the narcissist’s presence in your life. This is the real win. Think of it as moving far, far away from a radioactive waste dump. If a narcissist throws a tantrum in the forest and no one’s there to hear it do they make a sound? Probably, but it doesn’t matter if you’re not in earshot. They can seethe, hate and scheme, but once you detach and disengage who cares?

To summarize:

For Crazy, winning means she or he has the ability to hurt you . . . It means they have the ability to intrude upon and disrupt your life, to cause you social harm, to cause you financial harm and to cause you legal harm. Winning for Crazy means she or he gets to destroy or take away things and people they think are important to you . . . Your pain brings him or her pleasure . . .

The win for you is removing Crazy and his or her minions from your life as best you can and nurturing and cherishing what is good in your life. The win is reducing Crazy’s ability to screw with you to the tiniest, infinitesimal speck of insignificance in your life. (Say Goodbye to Crazy, 2015)

Getting away from the narcissist and not looking back is how you win. Ultimately, you beat a narcissist, borderline or psychopath by ignoring them and living a good life. Make a safe exit plan, work on your boundaries, go No or Low (if there are minor children) contact and you before you know it you’ll be ready to take that victory lap.

Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD provides individual services to help individuals work through their relationship issues via telephone or Skype, particularly men and women trying to break free of abusive relationships, coping with the stress of abusive relationships or healing from abusive relationships. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Services page for professional inquiries.

Comments

Wow. I figured a lot of this out just by realizing there is nothing you can do to win any argument, or make your crazy ex understand your point of view. I disengaged, but didn’t let her walk all over me like before. I at least stood up for myself when it was necessary, unlike I did in our marriage. I had to pick and choose my battles.
Case in point, I had to threaten with filing a contempt of court if she didn’t let me have my children on my weekend. She justified in her own mind why she wanted to keep them. Only when the threat of court action did she relent. She never spoke of it after she relented, or said she was wrong, or apologized.
So, I didn’t argue, I just said this is what will happen if you don’t let me have my children on my weekend. No raised voices or discussions. Just follow through with what you say, be consistent, firm and fair.
As can be expected she has been poisoning my children against me. She quizzes them when they get back to her place about everything, absolutely everything. A battle I can’t win, I just have fun with them when I have them.
Thanks for confirming what I’ve been practicing already, Dr. T!

I gotta say, these last two articles, really address the problem. The last one is what i learned the hard way. wasted years trying to figure out what the heck was happening. I find that shrinks and doctors well never tell the NPD or BPD person (in my experience) the truth. They just “manage them”. They have told me (in a private conversation), but they will never tell her. From earlier Say Goodbye to Crazy videos…”how do you treat a BPD?” “you don’t”. I see that now. Interesting how they work. (Not how it is here of course).

Such a helpful article, thank you!
My ex husband is exactly this…and maybe more.
I have so many questions but the one that I really need to ask is, how do I help my adult children deal with their narcissistic parent? They’re having trouble.

I think the best way you can help your children to deal is to let them know that their Dad has limited capacity and his nastiness has nothing to do with them. They’ll eventually come to the realization that limiting interactions with him is their option, and not to feel guilty about it.

Having just arrived at the same conclusions as the article does about planning an exit strategy, my only question would be:

How in the world could a senior with a low Social Security income *and* the inability to work even part-time because of physical disabilities plan an exit strategy when that income is so low that he/she couldn’t even afford to pay for the cheapest of rental options these days — renting a bedroom in a house with cooking/bathroom/laundry privileges?

Other than 1.) staying with the abusive spouse and sucking it up or 2.) relocating to a lower rental cost area or even to another State to be able to rent a bedroom in the worst of houses or neighborhoods, do any other strategies come to mind?

Hi! If divorced or separated by death, by the time your spouse would reach a certain age, I think 60, you are entitled to receive SS from your previous spouse without affecting their SS income. This would increase your income. You might have a lot more options than you realize. I would talk to a financial advisor, lawyer, or councilor of some kind. Maybe all three. Look into reduced or free services for seniors on disability. Don’t discount your options before you’ve looked into them. And obviously, don’t tell your abusive spouse about it. Better to duck out before they have opportunities to scheme against you. Find friends that can support you! Join online meet-ups. Build relationships totally separate from the abusive one you are in. Abusive relationships create coedependance and isolation. Break the isolation and you’ll be amazed at how people will be supportive and guide you to resources and opportunities that you didn’t know existed. You may even meet someone you could temporarily rent at low cost during your transition when you get there. Also know that you are entitled to equity through assets gained over the 31 years of marriage. The lawyer can obviously help you with that. Set small goals towards gaining information and breaking isolation. It’s a huge step, just start there. In time you’ll learn more and it will get easier.
As an adult child of a narcissist, if you were my parent, I would wish you freedom. I’m so greatful my mother and stepmother found theirs and that I have too. Remember not to blame yourself, don’t engage or try to problem solve, feed into her need of praise enough to get a break. Sounds like you’re reaching out already, which is good! Hope this helps!!!

It is good to hear that I’m not crazy, I’m not the only one that is living with the devil.

Right now I am doubting If I should go back an live this hell again, my ex and I were separated for 4 months and our kids started to act mad at me over nothing, I thought that was normal but then I found out that my mother in law was the one that started everything, my ex husband is a puppet but also a narc, he is now trying to get back with me.

Don’t do it! Trust me, it doesn’t end up well. It is even more difficult to escape once you have already done it. They get wise and become even more controlling. Offer to work with him for the kids benefits and see how he behaves. if he shows his fangs you will know you made the right decision.