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Sentences (#35)

Genuinely thinking Donald will save us all will get you kicked from the HRx and NRx Sith Lord club houses, yet tacit support for his whirlwind of chaos should be very much expected by us at this late hour.

That would be true, even without the private portfolios of popcorn stock. (Note.)

ADDED: Astounding media BS (from George Stephanopoulos). Trump does OK, I guess. What he should have said, when asked where Obama was born, and whether he is a Muslim, in the opinion of XS is this:

“How the Hell am I supposed to know about Obama’s place of birth, or his faith? I don’t know, you don’t know, nobody knows except for Obama and a few others. The only thing you know is what you’re supposed to believe. I know that too. So you want me to lie, and say I know that Obama was born in the USA and reveres Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior? That’s the lie you’re demanding here? Because, you know clearly, it would be a lie. Neither of us knows anything substantial about the guy, except from the fiasco he’s made of his executive position. Frankly, George, I’m sick of this dishonest kissing-the-ring bullshit. Most Americans are sick of it. It’s over. That’s what my poll numbers should be telling you. So I have to say George, buddy, with the very greatest respect, that you and all the other lying Cathedral monkeys are toast. Improve your people skills, and after the collapse I’ll try to find you a service position in a casino somewhere.”

Ideally this blatantly discredits democracy and reveals that the elite’s faith in it only goes as far as it advances their interests. Like HRC and the media somehow steal the election, despite majority supporting Trump.

“…blatantly discredits democracy…” to whom? If the outer party ceases to believe in the magic of democracy (rather than double down), they are replaced by a new outer party. The grass roots have no power, even for secession. The NRx pro HTC position is based on fantasy or nihilism. Her election as a catalyst of anything positive relies on magic; a national revelation is not a naturally occurring event for Gnon.

A Trump election is optimal, but not because he has any shot at leading a restoration. The best NRx can get is a cathedral reaction to Trump. Having to cede even ceremonial powers to someone clearly outside their tribe could push brittle millennial cathedralists to secede, and dissolution is the only good outcome.

I learned my lesson last time, but could you explain the path this would take vs. HTC accelerating its dissolution? I’m not seeing the path for acceleration right now. Power seems to be pooling in cathedral centers between mergers and acquisitions, universalist salfi virulence, et.c

Exactly. We need people naturally predisposed to right wing thinking to feel totally unrepresented and helpless at the hands of a corrupt system. Only then can they be radicalized, or at least be primed to accept a future right authoritarianism.

“A Trump election victory would prolong the survival of the Cathedral by at least a decade.”

Maybe. But here’s something I wonder: if the Establishment is losing its mind over Trump now, just how crazy would they get if he actually became President?

Also, could his victory open the door for other similar politicians? Would ten guys in Congress who all acted like Trump actually accelerate things because the Cathedral would go even more bat shit crazy?

Grotesque Body Reply:January 8th, 2016 at 5:47 am

@Puzzle Privateer,

It depends on whether one locates the source of progressivism in the beliefs of a particular set of individuals, or in the structure of democratic politics. If we’re still going with the Dark Enlightenment line that ‘democracy IS doom’ that would suggest the latter.

vxxc2014 Reply:January 8th, 2016 at 9:07 pm

No Trump doesn’t save the Cathedral. That is mere assertion. The underlying premise seems to be it’s either the Cathedral or The End of The World. The Cathedral’s survival outlook is grim if Trump didn’t exist and he can hardly help them if he wants to…

I can understand this believing the Berlin Wall of their time on earth lasts forever just as we thought the Cold War and the Iron Curtain were either eternal or could only fall with the End of The World in nuclear holocaust.

But Dr. Land and the older crowd – you remember the Fall of the Wall and the fall of the Warsaw Pact and USSR. I certainly do.

Who then could have dreamed we’d be having arguments on the wisdom of Westerners supporting a Right Wing Orthodox* Russian Tsar?

*Apparently Putin while Christian isn’t Orthodox. However he understands his position as defender of the Orthodox.

No the Cathedral isn’t forever anymore than the USSR, British Empire or even long lived Rome were forever. The Cathedral is The New Deal and WW2/Cold War. It’s 83 years old on March 1st.

No – one’s lifetime isn’t all of History.

admin Reply:January 9th, 2016 at 2:00 am

“No Trump doesn’t save the Cathedral. That is mere assertion.” —
(1) Trump wins
(2a) His authoritarian-theatrical social democracy proves no less dysfunctional than expected (by anyone with a clue), and, to conservatives, Bush-level radically disappointing.
(2b) Cathedral left-ratchet institutionalized one-way gridlock mechanics, in any case, turns his decisions into noise
(2c) Plus the West continues its accelerating collapse around his ears, which he has no real idea how to stop, so a grotesquely failed Presidency is the default
(3) Pendulum swings back, open clown posse communist maniac wins the next one, or perhaps the one after that, “We tried the right-wing option, and it failed!”
It’s not rocket-science. That’s how democracy works.

Grotesque Body Reply:January 8th, 2016 at 11:29 pm

@vxxc

It’s one thing to assert that a particular regime will end, as all contingent things must. It’s quite another to interpret how it’s going to die.

Grotesque Body Reply:January 9th, 2016 at 6:09 am

@admin

In a conversation with a lawyer friend recently, he claimed that ‘we already tried rejecting democracy in the 1930s and that gave us the Holocaust, so we’re stuck with it now,’ the implication being that Nazis and juggalo Stalinists are the only alternative to demopolitics. Nobody should underestimate the pull this argument exerts over mainstream liberals/cuckservatives.

vxxc2014 Reply:January 9th, 2016 at 8:08 pm

Admin,

Why bother fighting or arguing against the Cathedral at all then?

Cuz Nihilism will save us?

If I want nihilism I’ll sign with ISIS. They got that shit wired.

Of course that dynamic already present in these pages…that ISIS will defeat the Cathedral.

Why the fuck should we accept that? We should do our own dirty work, or at least secure our patch of the world.

We don’t know how much Trump is asking for 150% to get 100% or if he’s in “I win, you lose” mode. If he actually went after birthright citizenship and deported everyone under that widened rule, you’re looking at a 10-20% reduction in population.

We don’t know yet who will fill his cabinet. They could be Outer Party or they could be reformers.

We don’t know if a machine will rise around Trump. Let’s say he’s getting significant black support, could he get black Republicans elected in black districts? Will he intervene in primaries to elect right-wing candidates? The House could be radically altered.

Will Hillary get indicted? This is a non-zero probability.

We don’t know if Trump will run with a radical House or triangulate.There’s a good chance House Republicans will have a blank slate with Trump if he sees his real enemies as the media. Republican radicals could steer him into fights that he will then win. The more radical the policy, the harder Trump can spike the football off the media’s faces.

watched the hit piece on palin, game change last night. I sort of know her she was raised in the little idaho town where i have my fort the women like her and they are all like her run the towns while the men log and build things. these are good people they seem dumb to us but they are not just completely disconected, even now most people have dial up internet and poor tv reception they are not hard wired to the matrix.if trump wins its the price the left pays for destroying palin. it doesnt matter that she was clueless about so many things she would have ruled better than obama because she loves an america im sympathetic to while he hates america whites christians males etc hes exactly what the rush limbaughs say he is a terrorist sympathizer black radical. and while not suggesting the illuminatti exactly its clear this faggot didnt wake up one morning and find the balls to run for president he was found and made president.
yeah its better if trump wins, even if he he cant save us anything that buys some time helps. we are in an existential race the cathedral is not collapsing ever please show me your evidence this can ever happen. and the demographic collapse of western civilization is immanent, i suppose you can count that as a collapse but what good is that collapse its after we are gone or too few to recover. Besides buying time simply by slowing down the invasion etc he shows the proles there is hope and he continues to demonstrate the lie that the gop is conservative, he will of course demonstrate he is not conservative but both sharpen the idea of what conservative is.
The other thing is the whole MM “democracy is the problem stupid” is really misconstrued by most of you maybe by yarvin too. Ok minority and women voting is a problem but they got the vote by the root cause they didnt vote themselves suffrage. The problem is not the lower class half of white men its not the unwashed proles as you constantly imply with the “populist” meme, its the educated upper classes that are RACE, GENDER,CIVILIZATION TRAITORS theres no other words for it and this has nothing to do with democracy they started this shit under monarchies and have continued it under every other form of govt. democracy is the symptom not cause. The cathedral didnt need a collapse to seize power post monarchy they simply needed a clever propaganda interpretation of enlightenment, it may be that has to go or be modified. but the war is for hearts and minds not turf. NRX ought to be able to excell at this but is focused on teh collapse youre waiting on Gnodot he aint coming but as the same guy said they are electing a new people.
What the cathedral has kindly demonstrated is that you can impose almost any beliefs upon people if you control the media academic complex. so seize them stop worrying about the means and hoping for collapse plan on how to pwn a populist revolt and restore order.

Perhaps Bryan Caplan(!) could provide some foundational help on this phenomenon with his “Myth of the Rational Voter”.

In most of the West, the democratic vote mostly lacks content anyway. Individual votes have zero power in the first place. Look around yourself and imagine everyone you can see flipping their vote to the other choice. There will be no difference in the general election. The choices on which we vote are carefully clustered at the median voter (which may or may not be a bad thing). The actual judgements and decisions are then mostly made by unelected bureaucrats on which we do not vote.

it’s interesting how Caplan, who could be considered a liberal, pretty much wrote the anti-democracy manifesto around the same time as Moldbug began his blog in 2007. They both see the flaws of democracy.

Caplan and the liberal libertarians tend to be stronger on moral and legal egalitarianism as prerequisites for Utopia (rather than political or property egalitarianism), and thus are willing to reject – reluctantly or excitedly, depending on the Edge Factor – democracy in favor of capitalism. The Social Darwinist and Survivalist libertarians may share these tendencies, but also tend to have different arguments (many of which are on NRx). To be honest, though, I thought Friedman’s critique of political epistemology and bias in his obscure TELOS-style hobbyist magazine (Critical Review, I think). Caplan and Public Choice tend to take rather tendentious views of ‘rationality’ and public perception of reality. They are projecting their own intelligence onto people even as they’re calling them derps.

vxxc2014 Reply:January 8th, 2016 at 9:13 pm

Mike,

Evidence the Cathedral isn’t forever: Berlin Wall.

BTW the entire social democracy part along with our precious elites would have collapsed in 2008 if they hadn’t created $30 Trillion out of thin Air and that was just in the USA for 2009-2011 period. Now they didn’t save social democracy they saved themselves.

Mike – please consider my fellow Mick THINK POSITIVE. They are the ones who bought time, we weathered it fine without them. Mind you without them the entire Financial mess – a 100% elite operation – wouldn’t have happened.

I’m still not on board with this acceleration strategy. What I think has to happen is that the USA (and the West in general) need to rebuild their “moral capital”.

So what does it take to rebuild Western civilization’s moral capital?

Theory A: People accumulate moral capital by spending time in the School of Hard Knocks, being above some pain threshold over an extended period of time. The slogan for this is, “Good judgment is the result of experience. Experience is the result of bad judgment.”

Theory B: Moral capital is something that lives in certain old wise people and institutions, and once lost, it can only be rebuilt from scratch by new institutions, which are most likely built from the top down. Good judgment is the result of intact, healthy institutions that pass on their habits to people who mostly have no idea why they do things certain ways.

If Theory A is correct, levels of good judgment oscillate like a pendulum, and it makes sense to try to slow things down to damp the oscillations. If Theory B is correct, then it might make sense to want to crash the system while there are still people alive who remember the old ways.

“They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good.”

You seem to confuse moral capital with the absence of a need for moral capital.

I don’t know what you mean by “legitimate leadership”. It sounds a bit circular, like the old joke that the secret of how to brew good beer is to hire a good brewmaster. If the voters choose bad politicians, the way to teach them to choose better politicians is to get them to choose better politicians?

If you’re trying to call for a restoration of monarchy, your point would be a good deal clearer if you would actually use the word, “monarchy”, somewhere in your writing.

‘Your “skin in the game” and “accountability” sound like you’re calling for a better formal constitution.’

If you put words in people’s mouths rather than contend with what they’re actually saying, you’ll be apt to systematically misinterpret their arguments and make irrelevant objections, which is what you’ve done here.

Skin in the game isn’t formal at all, it’s evolutionary. The form of the constitution has no necessary relation to whether a decision maker has shares in the gains and bears the costs of decisions they make. See, for example, the rape of the Constitution under current iteration of WashCorp. What’s written on a piece of paper is nowhere near as significant as the broader selection/adaptational system. Are you Jewish? It’s common for Jews to emphasise the letter of the law over its spirit.

“You seem to confuse moral capital with the absence of a need for moral capital.”

No. Skin in the game selects for good leaders and selects against bad leaders. It’s not at all the trivial claim that ‘you need good leaders to have good governance’ as you’re misconstruing me here.

I don’t use the word ‘monarchy’ because monarchy doesn’t entail skin in the game. See: Thailand, the Georgians, the Hanovers, the Bourbons, the late Romanovs etc. Acknowledging the rapacity of the French Revolution doesn’t automatically entail that Louis XVI’s reign wasn’t extremely sclerotic and dysfunctional, with little of the decay of the society/economy actually felt by the rulers. One could even argue that the measure of when a monarchy is in need of reform/replacement is when it no longer has skin in the game and therefore is no longer able to exert good governance. Vlad Dracul: skin in the game. Nicholas II: no skin in the game.

I essentially agree with admin that monarchism in NRx often amounts to feathery hat LARPing (unless you can construe monarchy in a way where skin in the game is built into it.)

michael Reply:January 8th, 2016 at 1:58 pm

americans have an abundance of morality its just misguided.mostly its simply mis emphasized and decontextualized. even many leftist values would be ok toned down 20 fold. Thats not to say the process can simply be reversed.the damage is so great and now several generations never knowing anything else only a complete authoritarian takeover will work. subversives publicly executed etc. the choice is whether to wait for a hitler or do the work ourselves. they are not going to collapse any collapse like events will only be opportunities for them.

This part of NRx is openly and admittedly given up on humanity. Which due credit has never been concealed.

I don’t know if you remember the 70’s/80s but there were plenty of educated non-communists who looked at the USSR and said our only choice is to accept our decline and hopefully Finlandization status. Yes Finlandization is a term you can google from that time.

The Accelerationists strategy is bastardizing extreme left wing nihilism and making it right wing NRx.

Basically it says chaos and collapse our best hope and anything that advances chaos and collapse is to the good. Some of us disagree.

I hang around for the honest conversation and the old fashioned conviction that when it’s not theory but action most people won’t do the wrong thing and some – enough – will do the right. Seen it happen.

Not only is the Cathedral chaos it isn’t even entropy. It’s enforced chaos. Humans have been spontaneously creating order forever among themselves. It’s natural. This level of dysfunction and chaos takes enormous expense and manpower to sustain.

Seriously? The Jigs are a weekends work in any particular area. They’re COWARDS or at least the bad ones are…they RUN. That’s the huge dysgenic menace and plenty of blacks would love to see that overdue house cleaning happen.

I mention this for all the still trembling recovering progressives. Hang in there, if you stick with manliness you’ll become a man.

@VXXC: “The Accelerationists strategy is bastardizing extreme left wing nihilism and making it right wing NRx.”

I’m reminded of a Larry Niven story called “The Deadlier Weapon”. The protagonist threatens to crash his car, playing “Chicken” with a hijacker. I also recall a driver’s safety film where a driver wearing a seat belt crashes her car to disable a hijacker who is not. The latter story is actually the more appropriate analogy. My problem is that I don’t see the mechanics of a political analogy for a differentially survivable car crash.

Richard Fernandez has written about the idea that a crash of some sort is coming, and we don’t know how it’s going to play out, but some things are going to survive the crash, and it’s important which things survive. That’s all perfectly reasonable, but I don’t see the logic that takes me to accelerationism from there.

I’m looking for an explanation for why someone thinks that a crash happening sooner, and being more violent, increases the attractiveness of the likely outcome. The best I’ve been able to come up with is “Theory B”. Theory B isn’t obviously insane, but it isn’t self-evidently true, either.

I’m still leaning towards Herman Kahn’s “muddlin’ through” approach. Wait until you’re close enough to a problem to be able to see it clearly before you try to solve it, and try not to wear ideological blinders when you do.

Herman Kahn should have paid attention to Kissinger’s demonstration that this doesn’t work at all.

vxxc2014 Reply:January 9th, 2016 at 8:26 pm

We’ll muddle through.

We’ll be muddling through blood but we’ll muddle through.

We don’t need ideology just decent common sense.

Acclerationism + transhumanism = XS. Frank is correct.

frank Reply:January 9th, 2016 at 5:01 pm

>The Accelerationists strategy is bastardizing extreme left wing nihilism and making it right wing NRx.

No. Plan XS is the consistent position if you assume the premise “only morality is civilization”. You want to save the white race because it is the only race competent enough to further/maintain civilization. You might of course have other emotional reasons but I don’t care about them. NRx writ large shouldn’t care about emotional reasons. Moldbugian reaction is devoid of emotional language because it’s obfuscation. Anyway, so the rational part of the HRx argument is as follows:

> only morality is civilization
> white race = only race capable of civilization
> it’s a moral good to be WN

This might have been the only consistent position in say 1933. But we have new teleo-evolutionary time preference options now. You want to have inter-generational time preference, but XS says “why side with the monkeys when you can side with civilization itself?” So XS’ argument is as follows:

> only morality is civilization
> the essence of civilization is intelligenesis through incremental suppression of time preference
> it’s a moral good to ditch the stupid and side with intelligence

Most of the apes are inherently stupid (including most of the whites) and although intelligence has been thus far contingent on apes, it is at the same time shackled by the monkey business. And so plan XS bets that a cataclysm under incompetent left leadership will force the intelligence generating contingence of the apes to defect and cooperate with what they’re creating. The more thorough the discrediting of the anti-civilization, the higher the chances of a defection happening. XS is the T-Rex rooting for the Chicxulub asteroid, betting that it will unshackle the intelligenic process from T-Rex business.

Frank I’ve been in the Prisoner’s Dilemma. In real life Frank with blood drying on me. Grilled by CID.

Yep. True War Story.

There were no defections. None. Not from a pool of 2 but a pool of dozens. Quite the opposite.

Frank the only answer to the Prisoner’s dilemma is to keep Honor and not rat. Or defect as it’s so gently put. By the way I think the more exposure to the real world the Prisoner’s dilemma gets the better. Everyone needs to understand it – because that’s the theory our elites actually operate and rule on…the prisoners dilemma.

Frank what’s really happening is you are correctly explaining a sociopaths game – but do you really have the nerve to see it through?

Now wake up. There is no trans humanist solution that exists, what exists are men.

You can’t build on betrayal. Or defend on it. Men won’t side with anyone mentioning defection as a strategy.

frank Reply:January 10th, 2016 at 6:20 am

@vxxc2014

I agree with your prisoners’ dilemma point. You can’t rule a group of slaves that outnumber you hundred to one without employing divide&conquer.

> Frank what’s really happening is you are correctly explaining a sociopaths game – but do you really have the nerve to see it through?

Gnon is sociopathic to the core. Let me tell you a plan that’s not sociopathic: progressive utopia. Admin once said in a previous post that all we offer is Eternal Hell, and that’s the best anyone can do if one wants to pass Gnon’s laughing test. Do I have the nerve to see it through? We, at the dark side, all have battled our moral terror to varying extents. Plan vxxc would probably morally terrorize everyone to the left of you, which is to say at least 99.99% of the population.

> Now wake up. There is no trans humanist solution that exists, what exists are men.

I’m not sure transhumanism is the right word to describe it. I don’t expect humans to be part of what’s escaping–maybe only in the short term. Devising a plan for what’s here and now is admirable, but not including realistic future projections in it, not so much. Petaflops per second performance at the cost of $1000 is coming within the next 10 years. It is not a fantasy. It is happening. Which means thinking machines roughly as intelligent as us will be here within 15 years. Make your plans without taking this into consideration at your own peril.

> Men won’t side with anyone mentioning defection as a strategy.

Some will and some won’t. There is implicit defection in every teleological end. You wan’t progressives to defect to your side. Plan XS wants humans to defect to civilization’s side.

PS. I’m not totally convinced, at any rate, that plan Trumpenfuhrer is incompatible with plan XS. It rather seems to me that escape of capitalism is irrevocable at this point.

I’ve always underestimated both human stupidity and human cunning.
If there is a revolution , it will be driven by the same subconscious motivators that formed our current society.
Only the environment will be perceived to have changed radically.