I read an article this week headlined: "The latest Kaby Lake, Zen chips will support only Windows 10." It claimed Intel and AMD's new processors are "officially supported only by Microsoft’s Windows 10." This can't be true? What about Linux?
Journalists, right? The short answer is Intel's Kaby Lake aka its seventh-generation …

Re: @ Jonathan 27

Another monopoly move from MS that ends up shooting them solidly in the foot.

I have zero interest in Win10 at this time and forcing me to go with 10 on a purchase of Zen will simply result in my not buying Zen. My Win 7 games PC is working just fine thank you very much. As soon as my Steam library is supported on Linux, then I'll drop Win 7 forever.

$10 says Intel backs up the bus and supports Windows 7 after MSFT can't get any companies to pay a bunch of cash for $0 in value add to move to Windows 10.

Also, who cares? Outside of Redmond's bubble, the entire world is moving towards lightweight end user devices (PC or otherwise... the whole cloud story). For instance, Google is releasing just killer business class PCs right now running Chrome OS on Intel m core processor. m core basically trades unnecessary compute power that 99% of users will never touch (the i core series) for better battery life. That is a good trade off for 99% of people. Compute intensive apps should run on a server. I have the new HP Chromebook 13 and so Intel and Microsoft can go right ahead and do whatever they want with the i series.... Funny that MSFT thinks this is really going to scare people into buying Windows 10. "You are not going to be able to get the i core!" So what, giant PC chips were cool in the 90s, not so important since the internet came around. You can easily run any PC app under the sun on an m series chip... you can likely get the job done on an ARM chip.

Nonsense. Chrome, by design, will always be more secure than Windows. Chrome requires far less management (if you are an IT admin, you can manage a fleet of thousands and all the data access on Chome from a single counsel... as they are running all critical services on the server, where critical services belong). It isn't as good as Windows for business, it is much better.... Also, throw in that it is a free OS with Google support. If you are a large business, that is millions a year in savings. Thick client is from the 90s, as is paying for OSs.

Re: Farming out compute intensive processes?

Re: Farming out compute intensive processes?

"Are we back in the days of Mainframes now, or just terminal servers and thin clients? How long until security and bandwidth concerns push us back onto only using machines we actually control?!"

What? Security concerns? Mainframes are far more secure than PCs or a PC architecture. It isn't even close. I believe the IBM mainframe has not yet been hacked (50 something years since introduction). Just think about it. What is more secure? One incredibly well guarded server, purpose built for maximum security... or a thousands PCs being left on the table at Starbucks or floating around the office? Say nothing about the superiority of IBM z/OS (or Unix derivative) OSs to Windows.... The whole cloud security concern doesn't make much sense either. Who is likely going to do a better job? Google or AWS with an army of top notch security engineers, huge amounts of cash to spend on security, and every incentive to ensure their customers data is never hacked, or whoever the local business happens to hire for their security position?

What can you really do with a PC that is not connected to the internet? You can create a spreadsheet offline (which you can do with Chromebook as well)... Not much otherwise. Play a game I suppose. It is really a solution in search of a problem for most people though. Most people always have internet access... if they don't have WiFi, they are looking at their phones... not their offline PC.

@fandom

...will drop support... There. FIFY.

It's not happened yet, and when it does, mainstream Linux distro's will remain supported in i386 for several years to come, because they will keep the older kernels in their LTS repositories for quite a while (Ubuntu will drop support first in 18.10)

I estimate that I'll have retired all my i386 boxes way before Ubuntu 18.04 drops out of support in 2022 or 2023.

Re: @fandom

Forgive the naive question, but my recollection from the days of 386s and 486s is that the main hurdle to running Linux back then in a 386 or 486 system was RAM. The typical 386 system did not have enough RAM to properly run Linux. So has Linux become slimmer in the ensuing quarter-century?

Foundations used to solicit the donation of old computers. I was considering such a donation and asked the obvious question. It turned out that the desktop box I was considering to donate was not powerful enough to donate to them. Then I did a double take, because the most powerful computer in the house also was not powerful enough to donate! This is part of the "naive" in my question.

486 support will take longer to disappear, because there's still a fair bit of embedded kit using 486 processors. Anything above a Core processor is usable for modern productivity tasks (i.e word processing), although it'll probably chug for the most advert heavy webpages.

However, 486 support only applies to the base OS. A number of packages have assumed at least SSE (P3), and browsers have started enforcing SSE2 (P4). For text only, very slow systems are still manageable. Many X utilities seem to assume Qt these days and I suspect a pentium 4 is the minimum usable platform, I tried with slower and it was a bad idea.

Windows is much more strict with later releases, and running some apps, particularly games, is sometimes tricky. No Man's Sky shipped requiring SSE4.1, which is included in Intel chips from 2007 or later, but not in Phenom 2 chips, the last of which was released in 2011.. That got fixed rapidly.

386, 486, good grief! Why on Earth are you keeping that junk? Let me guess...you keep using the same toothbrush until the last scraggly tuft falls out.

Because you find various perfectly servicable industrial machines that have an integrated controller with early 3/486 cpus in them. Nothing wrong with the machine, but you can't update the software any more, and you can't change the controlling machine because it uses some weird proprietary hardware so what to do? If you can put Linux on it chances are you can hack together some working control code, which is a damn sight easier than trying to work out how to get a modern PC to talk to whatever the hell it is.

They are dropping x86 support, as oposed to 386 support. That means 32-bit versions will no longer be actively developed / supported going forward.

That means no Linux for 32-bit Atom chips or older hardware. As most Intel processors today are 64-bit, there is less and less need to support 32-bit, although that means that 32-bit processors will be restricted to older distributions with LTS support.

As for Windows, it doesn't say that it can't / won't run on older versions, just that if there are problems, you are on your own and will have to solve any compatibility or stability problems yourself.

The biggest problem here is that the "support" for new processors means adding new features and drivers to Windows 7 and 8.x. Windows 7 is in extended support, which means that it only gets security updates. As new features are not security, there are no resources available to implement them.

If you are a large corporate, buying thousands of PCs with Kaby Lake, then you can probably pay for MS to write the relevant drivers, as a private individual that isn't realistic.

Re: Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

@Annon.

You're talking out of your hole.

There is nothing that stops you using win7 in a VM, You cant use the same Licence for the host and the VM.. but if your setting up the VM to get round not being able to run win7 as the host OS this hardly seems to be an issue.

The solution to the problem would seem to be to use win10/linux as the host and windows7 in the VM... whether the performance impact of running in a VM makes it worth it is another matter... probably better just to buy an older generation of CPU.

Re: Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

Would that still work?

Don't VMs access the CPU (essentially) directly anyway?

i.e. If your host is a 3rd gen i7, then your VM also see's a 3rd gen i7. All the 'user' can usually do is manage things like how many cores are available to the VM, not what type of CPU the VM gets to see.

Therefore wouldn't trying to run Win 7 in a VM, on a host that was running on a new CPU, still have the same compatibility issue?

Genuine question. As my experience with various VM environments (desktop, not server), don't allow you to change the 'type' of CPU available to the VM, they always see whatever the host has installed.

Re: Another option (if you really want to stick with Windows)...

I realise this is old, but Google got me here....

The answer is yes and no... With modern virtualisation, the guest does basically directly talk to the CPU. But decent virtualisation software does let you limit what CPU is announced to the guest, which usually helps with stuff getting upset with newer cpus.

KVM/Qemu lets you set the CPU type, and I've had instances where I've had to do that. Not sure if it blocks invalid calls and such, but makes he OS think it's on a 486 or whatever you choose.

That said... The main trouble seems to be driver support. Virtual video card, USB, netowkr, etc solves that problem.

Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

"I could see this as a good opportunity to strip all of this crap out to have a pure 64bit CPU."

Then you could replace it with a totally different architecture anyway, since you'd need 64bit software as well. Most software is still 32-bit in whole or partially. The 32-bit subsystem in Windows can be disabled but most software will just stop working / won't install.

Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

I'm willing to bet Apple is getting pretty close to dropping the 32 bit ISA from the iPhone/iPad SoC. It is only needed now to run apps that haven't been recompiled since before iOS 7 was released and universal apps could be built. Seen in the light of Apple's recent announcement that they will soon start housecleaning apps that haven't been updated in a long time (they haven't specified how long) makes me think that in either fall 2018 with the A11 & iOS 11 or definitely by fall 2019 with the A12 and iOS 12 Apple will:

3) drop non-universal apps from the app store (i.e. those that haven't been built with the new tools that came out with iOS 7 back in June 2012)

The apps still on your phone that are 32 bit only could still be run, as it is easy to emulate the 32 bit ISA using a 64 bit CPU (Apple did much the same thing for its various transitions in the Mac world) but they'd be gone from the App Store, so if you deleted them off your phone you wouldn't be able to re-download them.

Doing this would have a lot of benefits for Apple in reducing the effort involved in designing and (especially) testing new versions of iOS and new SoCs, since all the 32 bit stuff simply goes away.

Re: Opportunity to get rid of 32bit silicon?

> I could see this as a good opportunity to strip all of this crap out to have a pure 64bit CPU.

That won't work, since MS has royally messed up 32-bit/64-bit portability/compatibility, on these days on Windows, a rare application is actually 64-bit.

It was funny to see the 32-bit vs 64-bit compatibility development on Windows and Linux having orthogonally different problems: former was botched by the supposed "backward compatibility", later was delayed by inability of most applications to cope with two/more sets of different system libraries/interfaces. Linux obviously eventually fixed the problems. But on Windows it is still the same: the popular recommendation is to develop exclusively 32-bit applications, and simply forget about the 64-bit.

Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

Re: Unless you are Really Big Biz this...

svchost.exe exists for both very tenous lazy developer reasons and to simultansously ensure that it's nearly impossible to adequately secure a system by controlling what has access to what network resource.

Re: Bloat

Re: Bloat

What you forget is that the only real value of Windows over any other OS is exactly that bloat - the ability to run 'legacy' applications from 10 and 20 years ago.

Windows is simply not special in any other way. It's not as flexible, or secure, or manageable as Linux. If I didn't care about running my old Win32 software, I'd be 100% on Linux by tomorrow morning. And so would everyone else.

Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

MS has caused me as much exasperation and frustration as the next user, but I have to suggest that at least part of the decline in PC sales is that older PCs are still fit for purpose.

My five year old Core 2 Duo w/ 4GB RAM is still happy to do 3D CAD work, as well as office and video tasks... for sure, a newer and faster machine will complete ray trace renders quicker, but that itself isn't reason for me to go out and drop £1,000 on a new PC.

MS have clearly made some infuriating and bewildering decisions over the decades, so you don't need to exaggerate!

Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

d3vy:"Get a grip."

It's clearly an exaggeration to say it's all Microsoft's fault. What is certainly true, though, is that Microsoft has failed to give anyone a reason to want a newer PC. Windows 10 doesn't let you do anything that you can't on Windows XP.

But what's truly ironic is that in attempting to force everyone onto a single version of Windows, Microsoft has smeared out the number of versions even further. Windows 10 has failed to accelerate the decline of Windows XP. Windows 7 - by most benchmarks - remains the most popular OS in the world. Windows 8.x is declining, but not so much that it can be ignored any time soon. Even Windows Phone was not fully replaced by Windows 10, further splitting a mobile market that was already minuscule to begin with.

Altering the hardware will worsen this situation still further. We'll see a continued demand for older CPU generations, as well as a growth of fixes and hacks to support older versions of Windows on newer chips. Because it's the continuity that people are addicted to, not Windows as such. And newer versions of Windows fail to offer any advantage that would compensate for a reduction in that continuity.

Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

"They are consumer devices not computing devices." - I hate Smartphones because they ought not to be better than the PC but they are. Yes a PC has a big screen and proper keyboard and mouse so ought to be better. However it's not. In Windows 7 Microsoft did have a go at using accelerated graphics hardware to improve the experience but this was a gimmick. Then Microsoft abandoned graphical effects with the Metro interface. Compare this to how a smartphone user can effortlessly scroll through photos smoothly and enlarge and rotate instantly.

No, Microsoft let the PC down. Almost as if the desire was to kill it.

Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

Everyone who disagrees with this is wrong. THE prime reason for the public to refresh their PC was for new game support. Microsoft sent everything to console. They even took halo away. Then they dropped two turds, 8.x and 10. "Duh..What happened? No body is buying PC's?" Everyone bought phones and consoles you idiot. Since nobody bothered to innovate for an 8 core processor, a modern phone does everything your PC can do, just as fast. Who wants a PC? I should have a half-nude Cortana AI at this point. But instead I've got a phone interface on my PC that is not as convenient as a touch screen phone in my lap with a bag of popcorn. So yes. Microsoft killed the PC.

Re: Microsoft continues to destroy the PC

"THE prime reason for the public to refresh their PC was for new game support."

Citation needed.

Presumably you're a gamer. I have news for you: many people have not the slightest interest in playing computer games. They do use computers for other stuff, all of which worked better on new hardware during the decades when performance was improving but not reached "good enough". Now they're not going to replace stuff which is good enough and for many phones, tablets and chromebooks are also good enough. And even during those years when PCs were selling well most users neither needed nor bought whatever was then the top end stuff that hardcore gamers bought.

Not just these

The difficulty occurs with any xhci controller, not just these. It gets tricky if the install is done from a usb3.x port. As long as you have a USB2 port you are fine. I'm writing this on a lappy with sandy bridge and a renesas xhci usb3 controller on one port. I can't install win 7 through that either. Thin lappy with a single USB3 port and nowt else = bad idea. That's all they'll offer then. Corporate grade e.g Dell Latitude will be OK. Consumer? Just be grateful and shut it.

Re: Not just these @AdamK

"The difficulty occurs with any xhci controller, not just these. It gets tricky if the install is done from a usb3.x port."

I concur.

We're using a tried and tested Fedora installation and it can't be installed on any Skylake systems either from USB DVD or memory stick, since the installation can't find the source packages! The reason is exactly the same as with Windows 7 - no xHCI support in kernel.

Like 'Steve Davies 3' wrote, there is a mountain of difference between not working and not supported - even with many businesses since not very many will ever invoke a support request from MS or computer vendor.

Slow, carefully planned suicide?

If I read this right, you can run anything you like on this generation of chips, EXCEPT for all Windows versions before Win 10. This is a good strategy for defending your consumer base? Really? Seeing that Win 10 seems to screw up everything it comes into contact with, and that every "Windows" release (update) from now on will be essentially a beta at best - faults to be identified first by users?

I have not used anything made by Microsoft for several years now, so I can be quite detached as I observe their decline. But it is still disturbing watching a once great company determined to turn themselves into a toxic brand. Why?

Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

Really, he wasn't singling them out? This paragraph comes across as crass, then:

Seeing that Win 10 seems to screw up everything it comes into contact with, and that every "Windows" release (update) from now on will be essentially a beta at best - faults to be identified first by users?

Seems to be the case with Linux, OSX, Android and iOS as well. If this is standard industry practice, why point at Microsoft?

FWIW, I didn't have problems with upgrading to 10. Not on my phone, not on my wife's archaic netbook, not on my desktop, and not on the corporate laptop. I can understand user frustration, but other than some specialized corner cases, most of them should have no problems with Windows 10. And overblowing specialized uses to cover the entire market is silly.

Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

Seems to be the case with Linux, OSX, Android and iOS as well. If this is standard industry practice, why point at Microsoft?

The difference is simply that all the others actually test their patches etc before they send them out. Sure, sometimes there's a problem, something gets missed, but that's relatively rare.

With Windows 10 it's every few weeks that hardware gets killed (eg recently web cams (though I think they did people a favour there!), or settings get wiped, software that MS doesn't like (sorry, "does not reccommend") gets removed on a whim (sorry, "to help protect you from yourself because you didn't really want to run that expensive top-of-the-line program when our nasty utter shite rubbish does almost the same job, except it only lacks 90% of the functionality)

FWIW, I didn't have problems with upgrading to 10. Not on my phone, not on my wife's archaic netbook, not on my desktop, and not on the corporate laptop. I can understand user frustration, but other than some specialized corner cases, most of them should have no problems with Windows 10. And overblowing specialized uses to cover the entire market is silly.

Yes. All those people from home users to enterprise level, from grans who barely know where the power switch is to long-term computer professionals are wrong because you got it right. Did you ever stop to think that with the numbers given, perhaps you are a "specialized corner cases" and the others - the ones who have all the problems with WinX, are the norm?

Or perhaps M$ are paying you to believe that. Or drugging you. Or something. Can they actually pay you enough?

(hey M$, I'm out of a job atm. How'd ya like to have a hard-core Linux geek suddenly start singing WinX's praise? Give me a call will ya? I come cheap, you should be able to buy me for oh, maybe 50,000/wk to speak good of your shit)

Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

"Seems to be the case with Linux, OSX, Android and iOS as well. If this is standard industry practice, why point at Microsoft?"

I can't speak for the rest - and as they are tied to H/W vendors in some degree there could well be other shenanigans in place there - the thing about Linux is that there are distros which range from bleeding edge to conservative. Nobody is forced onto any particular one. Users who want to be beta testers will choose the former, those, like me, who just want to get stuff done will be on the latter. The Microsoft strategy seems to be that if you're a not able to pay for enterprise licensing (and that includes SMBs and professionals) you're a beta tester for those who are.

Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

"Isn't that a bit harsh? Linux, OSX, Android and iOS are hardly bug-free" - no there are bugs in Windows 10 that should have been detected and fixed just days into it's release if not before. I had to go online and read up a procedure to make Outlook work on Windows 10.

The customer just wanted a PC which they could do web and email and word processing. They were not hooked on Outlook as they are just as happy with Gmail. They like Word and Excel but I expect they would be OK with Libra Office.

An Apple PC would have done them OK and they have used them in the past. Their till is Windows based but I think it's Windows 7.

The people who build tills are not wedded to Windows, it's just what they happen to use. Since they hook the tills up to the e-commerce website these people know Linux and web already. I can see the PC till being replaced by a device that's just a web terminal.

Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

"But it is still disturbing watching a once great company determined to turn themselves into a toxic brand. Why?"

I think the idea is to get out of the OS business and for MS to become strictly a cloud services company. I see Windows evolving into nothing more than a frontend for their cloud services, thin-client style, for the enterprise sector, with home users cut loose completely. This is the only thing that really makes sense in light of their unprecedented hostility toward their own home customers, not just in terms of the aggressive upgrade push, but also in terms of the forced upgrades that install themselves whenever they want, the spying that can't be turned completely off, the ads that can't be disabled, the automatic app downloads that can't be stopped, the group policies that no longer work, all that stuff. Enterprise customers have been immune to all of this; it's the home customers that get the worst of it.

Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

Too right.

Just met with the 4th and 5th Windows 7 users I know who've been hijacked by Win10 and left with laptops that now don't fully work -- in this case non-functioning optical drive and sluggish performance.

Problem, these are Japanese girls in London who personally imported Toshiba domestic market models (for the Japanese keyboard).

Couldn't face spending hours tearing my hair out on machines 5 years old -- with the serious complication that the home website would be in a language I don't understand.

Helpfully, an IPad bought in UK has on-screen keyboard in software so supports all major languages.

Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

I upgraded my wife's netbook (an Acer with AMD C-50 APU) to Windows 10. It was previously running Windows 7 starter and I upgraded RAM to 4 GB and replaced the drive with an SSD, but 7 felt sluggish, but I couldn't do anything about it, it just took a long time, but according to Task Manager, nothing took up too much resources.

I upgraded it to Windows 10, it still felt sluggish.

I could bash Microsoft, but I decided to check what caused it and found that Windows Defender defaulted to scan the drive on certain activities, such as connecting to a network. A couple of clicks later, I rescheduled Defender scan to once nightly, and performance went up, way up.

Non-functioning optical drive? In what sense? Didn't it work at all (doubtful), or didn't it play DVDs? In the latter case, install VLC, Microsoft decided to remove DVD support from Windows 10 (it was only ever present in 7 and 8, as other releases, including XP, didn't support DVD playback without 3rd party tools), since most new laptops are sold without optical drives and since free solutions are frequently better than proprietary. If it didn't work at all, it's probably a hardware fault, since SATA drives are totally generic. Either way, maybe a few clicks away from installing a driver from Toshiba.

To be honest, I don't sympathize with these girls. They imported their laptop from abroad and they seriously can't expect locals who don't know the language to be able to support them if they run into any issues.

And frankly, there are at least a few solutions for them if they were using a laptop with a UK or US keyboard layout (from the most lazy to the least):

1. Buy a set of keycaps for Japanese, and switch Windows language to Japanese (Windows 10 doesn't limit this to Ultimate editions).

2. Switch Windows to Japanese, but make your own keycaps. You'll need a printer, a sheet of printable stickers, scissors, invisible/magic/whatever tape (not ordinary scotch) and a free afternoon.

3. Switch Windows to Japanese and learn to touch type.

Optionally, you can leave Windows in English and install just the Japanese IME. Buying or making own keycaps is optional. For the more ambitious, download MS KLC and use it to make your own keyboard layout to have multiple language support without switching to Japanese.

Re: Slow, carefully planned suicide?

> 1. Buy a set of keycaps for Japanese, and switch Windows language to

> Japanese (Windows 10 doesn't limit this to Ultimate editions).

> 2. Switch Windows to Japanese, but make your own keycaps. You'll need

> a printer, a sheet of printable stickers, scissors, invisible/magic/whatever

> tape (not ordinary scotch) and a free afternoon.

> 3. Switch Windows to Japanese and learn to touch type.

It doesn't work that way. You can use IME, but real Japanese Windows requires a Japanese keyboard. And Japanese keyboards are not like US/UK keyboards due to Japanese keyboards having three extra keys to toggle between kanji/hiragana/katakana glyphs and the western alphabet that are not found in US/UK keyboards (in fact, US keyboards cannot stand in for a UK keyboard, a UK keyboard has two backslash keys- one which switch into a set of symbols, which US ones lack).

Re: Does this mean...

Yes, years ago I made a slipstream disk for XP with SATA drivers, as the SATA drivers don't come on floppies (and you can't swap the CD / DVD). In the olden days the SCSI RAID controller drivers came on floppies, so you could add the driver at install.

If there are drivers that work on windows version < 10, someone will figure out how to install.

Re: Does this mean...

I still have a Blue-ray writer on my computer, so I could just burn the Iso of windows 8 onto a disk and then install from that, or i could use Universal usb installer to make a bootable copy of windows 8.1 onto a usb stick, would that not sort the problem?

Saying all of that the drivers still need to be produced for the new chipsets once the Os is up and running.

This news have got me thinking now, I will looking at updating, I have a an AMd 8350 machine at the moment and been waiting for the new zen and also looking at Intel, but if MS is going to dictate what OS I can use, then I will stay with what I have got. My motherboard is dying, so what ever I do I need to do it in the near future.

Fewer bugs, fewer problems

Re: Fewer bugs, fewer problems

"less code, fewer bugs, fewer problems for everyone" {W.T.F?}

yeah, having less code in their code base means they can LAY OFF MORE STAFF, like the way they canned all of their Q.A. people prior to Win-10-nic's release, so that they could use the general public as their "beta test" for all of the forced windows updates, and "save money".

it's all about M-shaft wanting to keep their cash on hand [in non-US banks] so their stock value doesn't crater.

(they've stopped with shooting their own feet. they're up past the kneecaps already, heading for the groin)

You can install Win7 on a Kaby Lake CPU/mobo by using NTLite to slipstream the Intel USB drivers. Also handy for adding default configuration for our site; such as NTP, WSUS and default accounts. Have also started doing this for Win10 as well, but that's to mainly remove the crud.

Windows 10

Funny how Win7 update is basically broke too, Microshafts plan to force us to use Win10 and the hardware manufacturers, going along with it to sell units. Linux is starting to look appealing as it has nearly everything Windows has for a business, just game support lacking for the consumer and the day when game developers strat looking at Linux for real will be the death knell for Microshaft !

Easy fix for Windows Update stalling on Win7

I've had a few goes at making Windows Update work on a Windows 7 SP1 fresh install in the last year or so and always got there eventually (starting from the MS DVD of Win 7 Pro 64 SP1) but it's been very tedious, very hit and miss. But all that is fixed for now.

Some kind contributor on here (pschonaut) suggested that the essentials are simply a fresh SP1 install plus manually downloaded and installed copies of

KB3050265

KB3102810

And indeed it seems to do the trick for me, remarkably quickly and with remarkably little hassle.

Once installed, obviously ensure the update selection is "important updates only" (optional updates are not welcome) and off you go. It just works.

Thank you pschonaut.

If any kind people out there want to ensure this info is propagated across stackexchange and the blogiverse etc (ideally after checking that it works for you too, and also reducing the Win10 usage figures even further), that would be very much appreaciated (in userland if not in Redmond).

Can you spell lawsuit?

This has restrictive practice written all over it and is likely to backfire in a completely unnecessary way on Microsoft and Intel and AMD.

When purchase an operating system you obtain it with statutory rights and not with just the bollocks they put in the (generally) invalid EULA. This includes being able to run the OS on any hardware that meets the minimum specification.

Now, it might be okay for MS to disable certain functionality if hardware support is required that wasn't available at the time (encryption springs to mind but there are other examples). However, fiddling around with synthetic limitations like this is about the best thing MS can do to annoy its enterprise customers. While some of them will play along, others will go with different hardware. Or, and this really ought to scare Microsoft, bring forward BYOD / other platform plans.

And class action lawsuits by individuals shouldn't be ruled out either and they could be big, not just financially but also in the amount of information they might have to turn over in the discovery phase.

There is an easy way out for Microsoft: concentrate on fixing Windows 10 so that people will really want to use it and keep the free "upgrade" open. Shitting on your customers' doorstep is not going to get them to love you.

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

Wow, not all that bright.

Whilst I'm not a fan of this 'plan', it's more an unintended consequence of someone finally (finally!) deciding it's time to stop dragging legacy shit around for a free ride. UEFI has been out long enough but we still seem to have options to run legacy BIOS. xHCI has been out long enough but we still seem to drag around the legacy *HCI interfaces to support 'native not USB3' ports.

For Microsoft, this is a no-brainer. If they say it's supported, but you need the *right* installer then you have far too much of the population with the wrong media stirring up a storm over their lack of understanding. If they say it's not supported, people stay on Windows 10 and get over themselves or move on to Linux. Still cheaper to lose a few from the fence than it is to staff the support desks for the onslaught of the morons.

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

"When purchase an operating system you obtain it with statutory rights ... This includes being able to run the OS on any hardware that meets the minimum specification."

Does it fuck, Besides, MS are clearly saying that the minimum specification is now intel Kaby or its AMD equivalent. What they are in essence doing is also applying a MAXIMUM specification for anything below windows 10... Its skylake or lower. This is not unusual as you wouldnt expect to be able to install mac os9 on current hardware... you wouldnt expect to install Fedora1 on the most recent hardware without some issues.

"And class action lawsuits by individuals shouldn't be ruled out" - Do you know what a class action suit is? I dont think you do.

What I suspect is going to happen is that things wont have actually changed that much - new install media wont be released but there will be ways of installing older OSs on the hardware, even something as crude as using a skylake to do the install and swapping the CPU out would likely work (I accept that this is not ideal but as an example it will likely be possible).

I know a lot of people don't like windows 10 but I really don't see the issue, windows 8 and 8.1 were almost universally hated as was vista so that leaves you with XP or windows 7 as options... is windows 7 really that much better than win 10 that it justifies the amount of gnashing of teeth that is currently going on? I don't think so,

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

People seem wed to the idea that Microsoft alternates good and bad releases, starting with Windows 95 (bad), followed by OSR2 (good), 98, 98 OSR2, Me, XP (conveniently forgetting that 2000 was better, even if it didn't have all that eye candy), Vista, 7 and it becomes a blur afterwards.

It was easy to hate 8, and 8.1 didn't help out much. I guess Windows 10 was overhyped, people were expecting it to be the new XP. It kind of is (it runs faster than 7 or 8), but overblown reports of failures (frequently at users' own fault) allowed haters to pile hate on it.

Now, a year ago I thought Windows 10 was shit based on all the articles I read. I was using Linux wherever I could, including on my work PC, until I was told in no uncertain terms that I have to switch to officially supported Windows. While I wasn't happy about it and I wanted to make life at corporate IT support as hard as I could and maybe try to claw back to Linux, I also came to Windows with an open mind and decided to give it a chance.

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

it is shit based on me having it on a laptop... I had Win 8 on my desktop and it was a NIGHTMARE... Win 10 on my laptop is even worse... I have lost work because not every app has AutoSave and Restore... Especially SQL where I do a LOT of work...

They have hosed my machine several tmes with these untested Beta updates they force on you... Dear Satya,WHY THE FUCK DID YOU FIRE ALL THE TESTERS.. ? I had already QUIT your fiefdom crap with non-technical people designing features...

If a person needs help turning their machine on they should not be able to dictate to KERNEL developers...

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

People seem wed to the idea that Microsoft alternates good and bad releases,

Depending on how you view 8.1, they broke that - 8 utter shit, 8.1 shit (but maybe the "good" one because it was supposedly better than 8), and 10 being worse still, and continuously bad with forced updates that so often break stuff. On and there's 10 A&E, breaking even more stuff badly. So really for the last 3 (4 counting A&E) they've just release shit apon shit. Like a diaretic drunkard.

but overblown reports of failures (frequently at users' own fault) allowed haters to pile hate on it.

Really? So those people who have their machines break after forced updates (including the recent one that broke powershell and the remedy instructions from MS - "use POWERSHELL to uninstall the update that broke powershell coz we are to busy fixing other fuckups to get on to it just now") are somehow at fault, even though the updates are FORCED and they cannot do anything to stop it, maybe not even delay it? Maybe it's their fault for expecting their hardware to keep working? Or expecting to be able to use their machines for stuff they want? Expecting to let a long job complete without a random reboot? Expecting to be able to play a game without the machine rebooting? Maybe they're at fault for expecting settings to remain as they want them? Or for expecting to turn their machines on and find the same software it had yesterday?

Just what of these is the users fault? What of the great many reported breakages is the users fault?

And just how much are you being paid by MS to spout this drivel?

(You might accuse me of being paid by "Linux" to say what I say - and you'd be right, I am. I am paid in having my machine work, without issue unless I screw something up or hardware fails. I'm paid in having it do what I tell it to, without changing just because I did an update. I'm paid in not having to worry about updates breaking it. And I am paid in being able to keep my sanity and integrity).

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

I know a lot of people don't like windows 10 but I really don't see the issue,

Then I suspect you don't work professionally with computers. Microsoft's policy may well annoy business companies so much that they look for alternatives, or look even harder if they do already. The telemetry and sloppy update process are real blockers here. Any hint of a different deal for business users is only going to be bad PR for "normal" users.

As for lawsuits: there is ample case law for this kind of restrictive practice and as a result I don't see them following through.

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

Maybe they should make Windows 10 not blow beta chunks all over everything.. They broke my laptop several times with updates... And the HORRID high contrast UI makes my head hurt.. I'm a developer so I'm using a PC for most of my waking hours and my productivity sucked on Win 8.1...

I RDP into my Win 10 laptop and Win7 looks like the newer UI... Windows 10 looks like the let their grade school kids design it... After pumping them for of Adderrall...

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

Greatest respect etc, but quite a few people on here seem to be forgetting that people in the real world don't choose to buy Windows. People in the real world choose to buy a PC/laptop etc, and MS's sweetheart deals with the major system vendors and major retailers ensure that it's a lot easier to buy a consumer box with Windows than it is to buy one without Windows.

End users are no longer important MS customers (at least wrt OS sales). System builders are the OS customers that matter, and it's been that way for years.

Re: Can you spell lawsuit?

"End users are no longer important MS customers (at least wrt OS sales). System builders are the OS customers that matter, and it's been that way for years."

But system builders don't build systems for the purpose of hoarding them in warehouses - at least they don't intend to. So if MS's antics put potential end users off buying their product they're going to let MS know about it at some stage. Alternatively they might build more chromebooks, or maybe something else. I wonder what Fuschia is going to be aimed at...

Re: @Marty McFly

"If the product is free, then YOU are the product."

Big fail there. Windows 10 is not free, it was free to upgrade from Win7/8 for a year. I'm also using Firefox and several other free software and I don't consider myself as the product. (well, with Chrome you could argue otherwise and with Apple software on Windows you're actually a tool...)

Which PC operating systems cost money these days? None except Windows. Does Linux/BSD/OSX/Android/ChromeOS make you the product? (well, some of them might)

Android, Chrome, Google, OSX, iOS, et al, is all about selling YOU to someone else, too, and people will happily line up and spend a lot of money on these. Microsoft just joined the fray, and let me add, they joined it really late in the game.

A question

Re: A question @PaulR

Hard to say since Kaby Lake is not out quite yet.

This is likely the "not supported so may or may not work" scenario. A Kaby Lake computer may also have some fancy brand new devices for which the manufacturer hasn't bothered to create Windows 7 compatible drivers - but probably you can at least install Win7 as long as you modify the installation media to include USB 3 and NVMe drivers.

DR-DOSJA VU?

I smell a fake incompatibility code in the silicone. But this time the defendant is colluding with the perpetrator. So no lawsuits here.

With all the chicanery history coming form MS, I cannot help to think that they paid Intel and AMD to insert code to check for all other windowses and return an error. It's not beyond them.

Just like it's not beyond them to reveal a nasty W7 vulnerability on January 15 2020. Sorry all you Window's only folks, you need to buy a shinny new PC. Microsoft will then have arrived at Apple's nirvana.

Re: DR-DOSJA VU?

Microsoft would probably like to avoid a repeat of Windows XP, a.k.a., the OS that forgot to die. Chatter about vulnerabilities is contrived, but as the programmers that wrote it retire and die, and The Kids want their own toys, even Microsoft has to make choices.

Unless you have legacy applications that require an older OS, this only stings for a moment. Adapt and overcome or look around for a more static line of work; this one gets cleared out every few years whether we like it or not.

Maybe I am misreading things but I slipstreamed the xHCI drivers into Windows 7 with the WindowsImageTool supplied by Gigabyte. Installed just nice on the USB 3.0 port. There was a USB 2.0 port but kept getting the same error message and no installation. Can't find the error image I had taken but so can't provide the wording but this was a new ASUS motherboard and i5 CPU.

I had a problem when trying to reinstall Windows on a laptop that only had USB 3.0 ports. None of them were accepted (the USB stick failed to boot on any of them). It seemed like UEFI limitation.

Luckily, I had USB 2.0 ports on the docking station and it booted without a hitch from them.

What I haven't tried is disabling USB 3.0 in UEFI setup. I suppose this has to be a potential solution, but it only occurred to me after I have already installed the OS, and I also haven't tried a USB 3.0 stick in a USB 3.0 port.

It failed to boot live Linux USB sticks as well, though, not just Windows.

Yup

Same problem here. Some older machines had USB 2 and USB 3.0 ports for this reason so the manufacturers could indeed load the OS or at least a bootloader rather than ship dozens of different HDDs they can simply send out a generic 1TB drive and instructions.

Its actually possible to download an image for some better manufacturers simply by providing proof of purchase and warranty.

The newer ones are a pain, as many boards also ship with no IDE controllers.

Interesting factoid, I've had some success booting OtherOS (tm) by replacing the BIOS chip with a new one pre-burned with both the Windows key and an older firmware on 44 pin TQFP.

Worked for me, the replacement chip not only un-bricked the machine but enabled full support for booting external devices again.

Disable the UEFI!!

Re: Disable the UEFI!!

I actually tried disabling UEFI and secure boot. The OS still failed to boot. I fiddled with other settings, and it finally booted. The Windows 10 corporate image installer told me it needs secure boot to be enabled for the installation to proceed.

I tried to get the laptop to boot that stick (on the USB 3 port) with the same settings again later (I thought I could maybe trick the installer or that there may be some advanced options), but it failed, and I couldn't get it to boot again until switching to the USB 2.0 port.

Re: Disable the UEFI!! FOR WIN7!!

er, win10 is designed for using UEFI... If win 10 install/ whatever will not start, it may be corrupt... go back to the company and get them to fix it if you DID want win10..

if you want Win 7, check your chipset - if it is skylake or newer, then it needs drivers even for USB2! (the BIOS will read it, but after that it passes control to the chipset and fails..) put all your drivers on an optical disc, works for me..

Re: Disable the UEFI!! FOR WIN7!!

Not to be crass, but I already said I was able to boot that USB stick without any problems -- people here suggested to try with legacy boot enabled and secure boot disabled, which I did out of frustration during the process.

I didn't make any changes to the USB stick -- it wasn't corrupted (well, other than having Windows on it ;-) ), the same stick failed to boot every time, and it was a eureka moment when I thought I could try in one of the USB 2.0 ports in the docking station, at which point it ran as if there were no problems with it at all.

My i7 laptop will quite happily boot DOS from a USB floppy

so if the processor itself is incompatible, as opposed to nobody's going to release drivers for some of the motherboard devices, this smacks of them deliberately screwing with us. (And not just us but potentially a lot of enterprise customers.)

An argument lost

I work primarily on a Mac and have done since 1985. I still have to use a Windows computer for certain tasks since many very specialized applications and some mainstream CAD programs are only available to run under Windows. I also use Linux for embedded work.

One of the arguments that I hear about using Apple hardware is that it's not upgradeable but it seems like a new socket comes out once a month for PC architecture CPU's making processor upgrades on PC's impossible. Now the CPU's are going to be slaves to a version of Windows.

I'm going to need to add a few PC's to backup inventory so I can keep using W7. I can't afford to spend another £7500 to upgrade applications to W10 and I find the UI to be a PIA. Maybe when W12 rolls out it will be usable again. Every time M$ tries to reinvent the OS, they fall flat on their face. I don't think that they understand how much money it costs to retrain an office full of staff and to deal with bugs slowing things down for the first 6 months after a major release.

Virtualize

Just run the older version of Windows on top of KVM. Problem solved. Considering many new Intel chips come with an IGP you can pass a cheap gpu through. Of course with any luck Virgil3d will mature and one can use that instead.

Re: I could be wrong but...

"Or should I not be reading techstuff after midnight on a Saturday"

Your problem is that because it contains techy words you think it was written by a fellow tech who should be expected to think logically. It was written by a PR person who probably gets stuck at "think" and for whom "logically" is far beyond reach.

Will, I don't know, was Win10 biggest success for MS, and not Win7? Will MS doing this because they found them selves loosing what they planned for -> that everyone will upgrade to Win10 (AND stay) so they can get access to more personal data and sell them but they found that so many people reverted back to Win7 or 8.1 or never upgraded (Compare to market)! So they ended loosing by selling Win10 for free and now what they can do? Simply 2 new CPU are coming and so many people want the upgrade so we will force Only Win10 can enjoy these CPU's.

I personally wanted to upgrade for 2 reasons (Gaming & Processing Data), but seems either as I refused to be forced to upgrade to Win10:

1- Will keep what I have for gaming and and build new PC (Linux for sure) with new CPU.

2- Or just upgrade to Skylake and enjoy it for both gaming and processing data!

With Windoze being on a subscription, and I assume that the annual renewal of that subscription will cost money, and chips being locked down to the latest version of Windoze, the PC industry will have its dream come true - corporations and individuals will have to upgrade both hardware and software every three years or so. That will put a tremendous financial burden on both industrial customer and individuals. I also assume that if the subscription is not done, the old operating system will just shut down.

I have a confession

Still using XP. And 7. And Windows 98 (because it won't run anything else, cough industrial PC /cough)

Its a problem but if you glue the USB ports and only ever use pressed disks, basic security is fine.

It has antivirus and the ability to restore the OS if things go south.

Backup system: internal BIOS is password protected and can't be changed because I took the CMOS battery out to ensure no data retention.

Sure malware can mess with it but it fails in the "no longer boots" safe mode.

One sure fire way to ensure you never get 0wn3d is to use a really old PC and only use it with a bootable media burned to CD which in the event of a drive issue nukes and paves itself then reloads from the backup which is a <10 minute job.

All the user data is stored on write once read many (WORM) drive which writes the raw files directly to Flash then updates the file table to lock the sectors permanently.

about windows 7

I have a sickness where I seem to must have the fastest CPU that a manufacturer makes. I went with the AM4 socket this time and bought a Ryzen CPU. Then I tried installing windows 7 ultimate and of course, it would not happen..This cramming of Win 10 down my throat made me angry. But I went ahead and bought the win 10 OS just to get my computer back up and running. But I am going to go to the internet and look for an AM3 system to run for now. I will set this damned win 10 system off to the side for a while. Companies who try to monopolize a market can go straight to the unemployment line as far as I am concerned. I think I am cured of my sickness now that I see what is going on.