My purpose here is as Jesus said to Pilate: "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth."(John 18:37)

Mod Note-

jaareshiah, I am sorry you find yourself so deeply caught up in an apostate organization that is deceiving and being deceived. You seem like a nice person, and hopefully you'll see that the risen Yeshua Messiah alone is our Savior - Him, having died on the cross/tree/stake for our sins, His blood alone atones, salvation is by faith in Him alone, through the free gift of grace.

In the meantime, please be very aware this is a forum that is focused on the discussion of the Ultimate Reconciliation of all to our Savior Yeshua Messiah. Many various topics are allowed, but no one is allowed to just post religious "talking points" from any particular group or denomination, especially when not even vaguely related to an interactive discussion of UR.

Please keep any further posts interactive and having an UR point, whether refuting, agreeing, or just wondering - rather than continuing to lay out point by point systematic theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization.

Yes, Jesus will deliver. Some now according to His plan, the rest later - according to His plan.

Every JW I've ever known was a sincere, kind person. However, as Paul said about the Jewish religion - and I believe it's true for all - we can have a zeal for God without the proper knowledge (Jesus crucified, risen again, Savior of the world).

Some seek to undermine the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses.(2 Corinthians 11:13) Rather than simply use the Bible as the basis for true teachings, they concentrate on trying to discredit the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, as if Jehovah's Witnesses were wholly dependent on it for support. But this is not so.

For the best part of a century, the Witnesses used primarily the King James Version, the Roman Catholic Douay Version, or whatever versions were available in their language, to learn the truth about Jehovah and his purposes. And they used these older versions in proclaiming the truth about the condition of the dead, the relationship between God and his Son, and why only a little flock go to heaven.

I don't know for certain when (1920's? 1940's?) the JW's purchased the plates for a handi-size edition of The American Standard Bible, 1901, as well as the right to print it, from the Nat'l Council of Churches of Christ. (This was on the agreement that no changes would be introduced into the text, as the NCC held the copy-right.) That was what was primarily used by the JW's for several decades, until their own NWT was released in the 60's. Its use was primarily because the 1901 ASV has Jehovah thousands of times where the KJV uses LORD. It is highly praised for superior accuracy by almost any original language scholar everywhere, regardless of affiliation. To the best of my knowledge it is still available for purchase at an extremely modest price from the Watchtower publishers. Maybe 5 years ago, when I last checked, it was only $5. Sometime in the 70's I bought a bunch at $2 ea. and rebound some of them in leather for those needing a good Bible.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 09:48:04 AM by reFORMer »

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Yes, Jesus will deliver. Some now according to His plan, the rest later - according to His plan.

Every JW I've ever known was a sincere, kind person. However, as Paul said about the Jewish religion - and I believe it's true for all - we can have a zeal for God without the proper knowledge (Jesus crucified, risen again, Savior of the world).

Blessings. :)

Now I really like that!

Logged

Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

jaareshiah

My purpose here is as Jesus said to Pilate: "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth."(John 18:37)

Mod Note-

jaareshiah, I am sorry you find yourself so deeply caught up in an apostate organization that is deceiving and being deceived. You seem like a nice person, and hopefully you'll see that the risen Yeshua Messiah alone is our Savior - Him, having died on the cross/tree/stake for our sins, His blood alone atones, salvation is by faith in Him alone, through the free gift of grace.

In the meantime, please be very aware this is a forum that is focused on the discussion of the Ultimate Reconciliation of all to our Savior Yeshua Messiah. Many various topics are allowed, but no one is allowed to just post religious "talking points" from any particular group or denomination, especially when not even vaguely related to an interactive discussion of UR.

Please keep any further posts interactive and having an UR point, whether refuting, agreeing, or just wondering - rather than continuing to lay out point by point systematic theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization.

Thank you, and we wish you well. Moderators.

Then, please tell deda2daworld to then keep his comments concerning Jehovah's Witnesses to himself. Otherwise, this will require a rebuttal. "What is good for the goose is good for the gander".

The LIE must be refuted not the organization or person who holds on to the lie.Whether it's Mormonism, Satanism, Watch Tower or Mythology.If we apply the truth to the Lie the lie will disappear it doesn't matter how or why the lie came to be believed .

Jaareshiah,One more time. This is a forum for the discussion of ideas and questions relating to the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind to God through the shed, atoning blood sacrifice of Jesus. If you want to learn, ask questions or simply read posts. If you don't want to learn, refrain from maling "instructional posts" concerning the watchtower belief system. Since you believe watchtower doctrine and will be disfellowshipped if you differ in your doctrinal belief, it may be better for you to stay in the watchtower cocoon and stay on watchtower website forums. In other words, discuss any aspect of ultimate reconciliation or even eternal torment or don't post at all.

Logged

"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Any further discussion needs to be on focus as ded indicates - not massive, repeated cut and pastes from a doctrinal book, attempting to teach a specific institutional organization's doctrine. DISCUSSION. UR RELATED.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 10:16:12 PM by jabcat »

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Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Heb. 12:2

jaareshiah

Jaareshiah,One more time. This is a forum for the discussion of ideas and questions relating to the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind to God through the shed, atoning blood sacrifice of Jesus. If you want to learn, ask questions or simply read posts. If you don't want to learn, refrain from maling "instructional posts" concerning the watchtower belief system. Since you believe watchtower doctrine and will be disfellowshipped if you differ in your doctrinal belief, it may be better for you to stay in the watchtower cocoon and stay on watchtower website forums. In other words, discuss any aspect of ultimate reconciliation or even eternal torment or don't post at all.

I will stay on-topic, and request that you also stay on-topic, not generating cndemnation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In presenting my posts, these are not "cut and pastes" (jabcat's comment) but information that I have given great thought to, utilizing the Bible, just as Jesus did. And as Jesus told Pilate (John 18:37), I will not stop from presenting accurate Scriptural information, for the sake of those who are really searching for what is true, willing to reason on the Bible, rather than allow orthodox "Christianity" to dictate what they should believe.

All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Thank you. By the way, most of us here are not a part of orthodox Christianity but believe a doctrine of ultimate reconciliation for all mankind rather than eternal condemnation for most. Most "mainstream" churches do not believe this and do not advocate it.

Logged

"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I will stay on-topic, and request that you also stay on-topic, not generating cndemnation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In presenting my posts, these are not "cut and pastes" (jabcat's comment) but information that I have given great thought to, utilizing the Bible, just as Jesus did. And as Jesus told Pilate (John 18:37), I will not stop from presenting accurate Scriptural information, for the sake of those who are really searching for what is true, willing to reason on the Bible, rather than allow orthodox "Christianity" to dictate what they should believe.

All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Jahreeshiah, the assumption that you already have , and are here to teach, "the truth", runs contrary to the purpose of this board, which is a "discussion forum".

It is not a problem that you are a Jehovah's Witness. It only becomes a problem if you persist in taking the position of a "teacher", as opposed to simply one who is here to share your point of view and listen in turn to the views of others. I read some interesting points in your posts, and I have read some things that I think are off the wall- and there are some folks on here that would say the same thing of me :o).

I have been a believer for 33 years. In that time I have studied the doctrinal positions of all the major sects and denominations and I am generally familiar with all of them. You are Jehovah's Witness, obviously you believe the systematic theology of that organization. That is OK for you- but you cannot promote it here. This not because you are a Jehovah's Witness- it is about understanding why this blog exists and whether or not you can function as a part of a diverse community of believers that are here to discuss "the restoration of all things".

I suggest you read the following verses, consider them, and respond to them.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. "But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' (Act 3:13-23)

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col 1:13-20)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. (Eph 1:8-12)

All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Following the living Jesus manifesting His presence to us is a different order of things than cooking up a stew of various Bible verses. Even if our knowledge of Holy Writ is accurate for as little as we can embrace, Jesus making Himself known to us through His indwelling Spirit is something in another dimension than The Book.

The only way anyone can follow in Jesus footsteps is for Jesus to to walk with us in person. So much about why He died and was resurrected is to give us open access to the presence of God. The Spirit of that radiant glory by which we perceive Him is how we are changed into the same image, out of one level of splendor into another greater splendor. Yet, how little time we spend waiting and soaking in His presence.

Perhaps the greatest gift I've been given is hunger: the hunger to know God and a hunger to understand His Word. We've been indoctrinated, but void of a transforming experience of God. When God showed up it was as if even my best was empty and worthless. Not knowing about Him, but knowing Him is the only thing of any value and my lack of Him had been overlooked. All my previous knowledge and experiences of Him turned to ashes. My present perception of God's manifesting Himself to me was so impoverished I could barely breathe for grief. Nothing else matters in contrast to knowing Him.

"Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit." 2 Corinthians 318, (Concordant Literal)

"...to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death, if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead." Philippians 310-11, (Concordant Literal)

« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 06:01:17 AM by reFORMer »

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I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

By faith even Sarah herself, when she was unable to have children, received power to conceive offspring, even though she was past the age, since she[f] considered that the One who had promised was faithful. 12 Therefore from one man—in fact, from one as good as dead—came offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven and as innumerable as the grains of sand by the seashore.13 These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth. 14 Now those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they were thinking about where they came from, they would have had an opportunity to return. 16 But they now desire a better place—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Following the living Jesus manifesting His presence to us is a different order of things than cooking up a stew of various Bible verses. Even if our knowledge of scripture is accurate for as little as we can embrace of Holy Writ, Jesus making Himself known to us through His indwelling Spirit is something in another dimension than The Book.

The only way anyone can follow in Jesus footsteps is for Jesus to to walk with us in person. So much about why He died and was resurrected is to give us open access to the presence of God. The Spirit of that radiant glory by which we perceive Him is how we are changed into the same image, out of one level of splendor into another greater splendor. Yet, how little time we spend waiting and soaking in His presence.

Perhaps the greatest gift I've been given is hunger: the hunger to know God and a hunger to understand His Word. We've been indoctrinated, but void of a transforming experience of God. When God showed up it was as if even my best was empty and worthless. Not knowing about Him, but knowing Him is the only thing of any value and it had been overlooked. All my previous knowledge and experiences of Him turned to ashes. My present perception of God's manifesting Himself to me was so impoverished I could barely breathe for grief. Nothing else matters in contrast to knowing Him.

"Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit." 2 Corinthians 318, (Concordant Literal)

"...to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death, if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead." Philippians 310-11, (Concordant Literal)

I will stay on-topic, and request that you also stay on-topic, not generating cndemnation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In presenting my posts, these are not "cut and pastes" (jabcat's comment) but information that I have given great thought to, utilizing the Bible, just as Jesus did. And as Jesus told Pilate (John 18:37), I will not stop from presenting accurate Scriptural information, for the sake of those who are really searching for what is true, willing to reason on the Bible, rather than allow orthodox "Christianity" to dictate what they should believe.

All I am doing is following in Jesus "footsteps" who (1 Pet 2:21), despite opposition from the Jewish religious leaders, continued making known "the good news of the kingdom" (Matt 24:14), explaining various aspects of it as well what is required to gain entrance into it.

Jahreeshiah, the assumption that you already have , and are here to teach, "the truth", runs contrary to the purpose of this board, which is a "discussion forum".

It is not a problem that you are a Jehovah's Witness. It only becomes a problem if you persist in taking the position of a "teacher", as opposed to simply one who is here to share your point of view and listen in turn to the views of others. I read some interesting points in your posts, and I have read some things that I think are off the wall- and there are some folks on here that would say the same thing of me :o).

I have been a believer for 33 years. In that time I have studied the doctrinal positions of all the major sects and denominations and I am generally familiar with all of them. You are Jehovah's Witness, obviously you believe the systematic theology of that organization. That is OK for you- but you cannot promote it here. This not because you are a Jehovah's Witness- it is about understanding why this blog exists and whether or not you can function as a part of a diverse community of believers that are here to discuss "the restoration of all things".

I suggest you read the following verses, consider them, and respond to them.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. "But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' (Act 3:13-23)

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col 1:13-20)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. (Eph 1:8-12)

Anyone who qualifies as a Christian is one who has followed closely in Jesus "footsteps".(1 Pet 2:21) These seek to explain the Bible as Jesus did as well as discuss it. Otherwise, they are not genuine Christians, but counterfeit ones. At John 1, the apostle John wrote that "because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him."(John 1:17, 18)

Furthermore, the apostle Matthew wrote of Jesus after having finished the Sermon on the Mount: "Now when Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes."(Matt 7:28, 29) The scribes did not effectively teach anyone, but Jesus did. He spoke for God and backed up his teaching with the authority of God's Word. (John 7:16) Jesus' statements were clear, his exhortations persuasive, and his arguments irrefutable. His words got to the heart of issues as well as to the hearts of his listeners.

By the way, what is a person to "promote" on this forum ? A personal belief that encompasses thousands of different ideologies or in actuality to dispense what the Bible really teaches ? No person who calls themselves a Christian can just throw out on this forum any "sort of words". Otherwise, what they are saying has no basis as "truth". Truth is not at odds with itself, so there is only one "truth"; as the apostle Paul said "one faith".(Eph 4:5) Jesus did not just "talk", but everything he said effectively taught others about our heavenly Father, Jehovah God.

I have hope that some will be willing to "discuss" the Bible, gaining insight into "the mind of Jehovah" through "the mind of Christ".(1 Cor 2:16) And should this not be the purpose of every genuine Christian, to learn about our Creator, Jehovah God and his Son, Jesus Christ ?(John 17:3)

the apostle Matthew wrote of Jesus after having finished the Sermon on the Mount: "Now when Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes."(Matt 7:28, 29) The scribes did not effectively teach anyone, but Jesus did. He spoke for God and backed up his teaching with the authority of God's Word. (John 7:16) Jesus' statements were clear, his exhortations persuasive, and his arguments irrefutable. His words got to the heart of issues as well as to the hearts of his listeners.

Yes Jaresiah I understand your dilemma what has been written on your heart is not what your scribes have written in the book.

We all support you, as you find the courage to listen to your heart and not what man teaches you . All of us here at one time or an other, has had to ignore the man teaching and listen to the spirit of God confirm what we already new in our hearts.

Anyone who qualifies as a Christian is one who has followed closely in Jesus "footsteps".(1 Pet 2:21) These seek to explain the Bible as Jesus did as well as discuss it. Otherwise, they are not genuine Christians, but counterfeit ones.

Jaareshiah, I have a question, but I'll go first by letting you know where I am; I believe some of what you share, other things I disagree with. One is, I don't believe our Father's name is Jehovah. I believe that has been shown to be a corruption. Although I think it's important, I don't believe that in and of itself is a "do-or-die" point, as most of us also use "Jesus", which is also not literally accurate. My position is, He knows what's in our heart and in Whom we have believed - the PERSON of Yeshua Meshiach. Accuracy is good as He leads, but if we "accidentally" or by habit call Him a name which the language He has given us has taught us, I don't believe He holds that against us one way or another, as in "uh-oh, you got my name wrong, you're doomed".

Another thing, although a true believer will follow in Jesus' footsteps, that's not what the scriptures say makes one spiritually reborn, which Jesus said must occur before one can enter the kingdom. I believe the scriptures teach that is not by the Law, or not by works, not by effort to do good deeds, including what we may imagine as "following in Jesus' footsteps". Following Him is an act of obedience as the indwelling Holy Spirit empowers us to do so, after we're spiritually reborn and infilled. Salvation is through the gift of grace through faith in Yeshua and His finished work on the cross. That happens when the Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for the Savior and gives us faith and strength to believe on His name as our Savior.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me."

Rom 10:9-10 ... If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

So my question. Do you believe one must believe Jesus came and died as the sacrifice for our sins, that He rose again, and that it's through belief on Him and Him alone by which we are saved? If so, great. If not, where do you differ? Thanks.