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Feel free to review my posts in this thread before questioning whether I get the point. This thread is full of opinions, many good, a few cracked, but all have served to let the devs know our concerns.

In the end, they will do what they will do. They will listen, or they won't. They will give in to our demands, offer a compromise we can all deal with, or just continue on with their original plans without change. That is their choice.

And the same goes for each of us. We will continue to play as we will, we will adjust our play style to the new structure, or we will quit and move on to another game. This is our choice.

We can demand that they do things our way, and we will probably alienate them.

We can ask them not to tear apart this world of which we are so fond; maybe they will reconsider.

In the end, they will modify and add to the game as they see fit.

We will play, or not, as we see fit.

I am too tired to rage, even though I fear there may be no game to return to when I graduate.

My guild, my friends, are not limited to DDO. They explore, investigate, invest in, and even create other games.

Also epic destinies need to remain unlocked that were previously unlocked.

Even if they made this the "reward" for capping a destiny, it gives you a reason to take that extra bit from of XP from level 5 at 1,500,000 XP and cap at 1,980,000 XP.

It would mean that everyone who has all of their destines already capped, would have a completely free run across the ED map to spend their ED XP in while levelling to 28.

It would also give people an option on what to do with their ED XP beyond the 1,980,000 XP that they will be spending anyway to cap out a destiny each life so they don't feel that they are completely wasting their time.

EDIT: Should say that this unlock would persist through subsequent TRing too.

Tscheuss has already posted that he's in agreement with the suggestion that Heroic TR will not affect ED XP in any way.

So this just leaves Epic TR as a choice, and this one I have to agree with.

Whatever the cost will be to Epic TR, it'll be a new option with a cost that we know about in advance. And it'll be entirely optional as you can continue to Heroic TR without losing any ED XP.

That is only true if they grandfather all completed EDs as of U20 launch day (or hell, even an arbitrary future date they announce today like July 1 or August 1) as bonded AND paths unlocked by paid ED keys stay unlocked on ETR. Otherwise we did not know about this in advance as you say.

That is only true if they grandfather all completed EDs as of U20 launch day (or hell, even an arbitrary future date they announce today like July 1 or August 1) as bonded AND paths unlocked by paid ED keys stay unlocked on ETR. Otherwise we did not know about this in advance as you say.

Realistically, I can't see them allowing us to insta-bond 11 ED's at once just because we currently have them all capped.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't be in favour of it, it would suit me just fine, but I'm not arguing that they should do this because I don't think it's likely.

If the purpose of Epic TRing was only to let us TR into Iconic classes and it was more about the journey to 28 then maybe this would be viable, as the Epic Destiny journey would be a sideshow, but as a major part of it seems to be to gain a number of ED Past Life Feats, I can't see them granting you 11 in one shot ... on the day it's released. Instant upgrade with 11 Past Life Feats and Epic Completionist? Won't happen.

There's a proposal on the latest DDOCast about bonding and resetting one destiny at a time that I can follow. I'm still not sure if I'm convinced by the idea that you only lose one ED per Epic TR, but I can follow the argument that if you only gain one ED Past Life at a time, then the cost for this should be a single fixed cost. It does have the advantage that if you only lose one ED worth, then people who haven't capped out every ED yet can still bump them along through subsequent Epic TRing rather than losing everything each time, or through subsequent Heroic TRing and not losing anything each time. It also addresses the issue that your total ED Levels would only drop by 5 each time you Epic TR so it does solve the problem with Fate Points not being completely wiped out.

There's a proposal on the latest DDOCast about bonding and resetting one destiny at a time that I can follow. I'm still not sure if I'm convinced by the idea that you only lose one ED per Epic TR, but I can follow the argument that if you only gain one ED Past Life at a time, then the cost for this should be a single fixed cost. It does have the advantage that if you only lose one ED worth, then people who haven't capped out every ED yet can still bump them along through subsequent Epic TRing rather than losing everything each time, or through subsequent Heroic TRing and not losing anything each time. It also addresses the issue that your total ED Levels would only drop by 5 each time you Epic TR so it does solve the problem with Fate Points not being completely wiped out.

Exactly this on the Epic TR end. Someone that's got 0 Epic Destinies maxed would need to Epic TR 11 times to get all their epic destinies bonded. They would get to keep everything they earned if they played the game Turbine's new way. They would never lose ED xp.

All people are asking for is the same path and the same approach to ED xp for existing capped toons as the new players get. They want to be able to Epic TR 11 times to get all their epic destinies bonded. They want to keep everything they've earned playing the game Turbine's new way (as of when they maxed their ED's). They're willing to lose ED xp...but only the ED xp they're working on at the time, not the entire tree.

None of that goes to the main point though - heroic TR'ing shouldn't have anything to do with anything epic. It should completely leave it alone.

Realistically, I can't see them allowing us to insta-bond 11 ED's at once just because we currently have them all capped.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't be in favour of it, it would suit me just fine, but I'm not arguing that they should do this because I don't think it's likely.

If the purpose of Epic TRing was only to let us TR into Iconic classes and it was more about the journey to 28 then maybe this would be viable, as the Epic Destiny journey would be a sideshow, but as a major part of it seems to be to gain a number of ED Past Life Feats, I can't see them granting you 11 in one shot ... on the day it's released. Instant upgrade with 11 Past Life Feats and Epic Completionist? Won't happen.

There's a proposal on the latest DDOCast about bonding and resetting one destiny at a time that I can follow. I'm still not sure if I'm convinced by the idea that you only lose one ED per Epic TR, but I can follow the argument that if you only gain one ED Past Life at a time, then the cost for this should be a single fixed cost. It does have the advantage that if you only lose one ED worth, then people who haven't capped out every ED yet can still bump them along through subsequent Epic TRing rather than losing everything each time, or through subsequent Heroic TRing and not losing anything each time. It also addresses the issue that your total ED Levels would only drop by 5 each time you Epic TR so it does solve the problem with Fate Points not being completely wiped out.

I am just trying to understand why this change? Was there somehting wrong happening with the TR system now? I have to assume it has to do with purchasing more things from the DDO store, but complete re-working a system that is not really broken seems a bit futile and wasteful to me. There are a ton of other things that could use the cycles wasted on this.

These guys speak for NOBODY. They don't speak for the players and they sure as hell don't speak for the developers.

They don't claim to. And I'm not suggesting that they have any influence with Turbine either.

Although Cordovan gave up some of his weekend time a few weeks ago to pop on and have a chat, so we know that he at least watches it and has participated in the past.

Likewise, they don't claim to be experts on the game mechanics either, but they're maybe more representative of the majority of players rather than some of the more hardcore who inhabit the forums.

I find it interesting to hear an opinion that isn't my own and you need to remember that these folks do this live every week. Occasionally they'll come out with the wrong number for something or mis-quote the detail of a Feat or an item, but to me that just make the whole thing more human. And remember this is done live, if you've never done any live broadcasting then you might not appreciate the difference it makes.

They do however manage to speak with a fairly level head and try and offer something constructive which not everyone on the forum manages to do.

Everything I want to say has now been said, sometimes quite well, by other posters here.

Sadly, what I've seen of the DDO Producer/Developer viewpoints expressed in this thread, Cordovan's statement "nothing is written in stone" notwithstanding, indicates there is no give on Epic Destiny loss for Epic and Heroic TR'ing come U20. That system will most likely be implemented come U20. I hope I'm wrong on my viewpoint.

As has been noted, discussion of other aspects of the proposed, and to me probable, new TR system are moot until that point is settled. Some of the ideas presented in this thread would, in my opinion, make very nice additions to an Epic TR system, regardless of how it is implemented.

As has also been expressed quite well by many posters on this thread, the feelings of anger at, betrayal by, and loss of trust in Turbine's management for DDO continue to grow within the player base. Why DDO management appears, to me, to be intent on destroying what was, and still is to a great extent, a most engaging and enjoyable game for my play style is beyond my ability to reason out.

'Nuff said.

Once upon a time, I was part of a team, and we saved some children. What have you done with your life?

Said it before, will say it again, there is nothing fun about a grind.

No more TRs period!

You don't speak for everyone. I quite enjoy TRing, as it currently exists. Getting to replay the varied lower level content is fun. And ever since the awesome Bravery Bonus and ability to open Elite on TRs was introduced, TRing became very fun.

Of course if they really follow through on this screw-people-who-actually-used-their-Epic-Destiny-system Epic TR proposal, I not only won't TR, I won't play anymore, or (and pay attention here, Turbine), PAY anymore.

First of all I want to preface this with the fact that I don't TR, it's a mechanic that I appreciate but personally don't have time for, I much prefer late/endgame play, I usually only roll a new character to play with someone specific or try out some cool sounding build, both of which makes the extra XP required and loss of a capped character too much of a negative for me.

However, I do think the current proposals for changes to the TR system are complete and utter tosh.

Here's my take on what would 'work', having read a lot of counter proposals from players.

True Reincarnation : No Changes.
Iconic Reincarnation : As TR but allows TRing into an Iconic. Due to the fast tracking to 15, could feasibly cost a little more than TR hearts. Iconics grant Past Life: Iconic.
Epic Destiny Reincarnation : Available at 28. Fast tracks next life to 20. Grants an ED past life for the active, XP capped destiny, Does NOT grant a class or Iconic Past Life. Clears all Destiny XP, but importantly: Retains Fate Points and all previous Destiny unlocks. Can Bond 1 ED to not be reset Each life (Must be capped, not the ED that will give you a past life, does not carry over (Bonding a ED for next EDR clears previous bond), in essence is there to provide instant Twists). 1st ED Past Life unlocks Tier 5 Twists in that Destiny, 2nd grants Tier 6 Twists. Potential for 6/6/6 Twist setup given enough grinding (though that would be an insane grind).

Epic Destiny Completionist: Grants the Core Abilities of your Bonded Destiny whilst not in that Destiny.

As a late/endgame player who has ground out some but not all Destinies that Epic Destiny Reincarnation would appeal to me as it would effectively just reset my Destinies while leaving Fate Points untouched, offering a different way of farming Fate Points.

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