That movie was released at what must have been a formative moment for me; I can remember being absolutely entranced with Leia, including in her moments of slavery.

The cosplay thing, I dunno. I mean, they are cute to look at and the ones the guy in the video was interviewing seemed like they were mostly having fun and were ok with the attention. But as with earlier discussions of this kind of dressing up, there's something a bit off about how much attention the sexy costumes get and the ways it fits into the overall culture.posted by Forktine at 12:23 PM on November 10, 2012 [3 favorites]

She's no semi-naked Dejah Thoris taking down her oppressors in a knife fight while waiting for her semi-naked boyfriend to come rescue her but the 80's were a conservative era.posted by Kid Charlemagne at 1:18 PM on November 10, 2012 [2 favorites]

But as with earlier discussions of this kind of dressing up, there's something a bit off about how much attention the sexy costumes get and the ways it fits into the overall culture.

I have mixed feelings about Slave Leia. The character is Leia Organa is good and powerful, a princess who doesn't mind getting her hands dirty and is not only comfortable, but use to being in command. She was willing to walk right into Jabba's den to rescue Han. She later straggled the being that enslaved her, with the chain he held her captive with. So there's a lot of symbolism there that I can personally agree with.

Yet there aren't many Endor Leia's are there? That's when she was part of a small strike force critical to the Rebel's success, chased after Stormtroopers by herself (Luke had to catch up with her) and later, though injured, still had her head in the game enough to fool the enemy and attack them when they thought her team was done for.

hey now, that wasn't grease on that fat gangster warlord worm, that was mucous.posted by hippybear at 1:34 PM on November 10, 2012 [3 favorites]

Teddy Bear Commando Leia just don't get the love...posted by Artw at 1:35 PM on November 10, 2012

Come to think of it, when the teddybears capture her they play dress up with her as well, putting her into some kind of hippy peasant dress type deal.posted by Artw at 1:40 PM on November 10, 2012 [3 favorites]

Brandon Blatcher: "Yet there aren't many Endor Leia's are there? That's when she was part of a small strike force critical to the Rebel's success, chased after Stormtroopers by herself (Luke had to catch up with her) and later, though injured, still had her head in the game enough to fool the enemy and attack them when they thought her team was done for."

Which is another facet of the overall problem. A lot of the ewok hate is probably rooted in the "teddy bears? but that's a girls' toy!" knee jerk reaction of young males watching RotJ (especially when said girls toy mops the forest floor with your mean, white-armored action figures).posted by radwolf76 at 1:43 PM on November 10, 2012 [1 favorite]

Not entirely sure I buy Teddybears as an explicitly gendered you in that argument, TBH.posted by Artw at 1:46 PM on November 10, 2012

There are just too many angles from which to look at this to make a blanket statement:

-The "affirming that women can be both nerdy and sexy" angle, and certainly there is a stereotype of nerdy girls - for 'intelligent, bookish, into SF/F fandom' values of nerd, the type of people who are going to attend cons - as being undesirable.

-The "the only way girls can enter my secret all-boys nerd club is by dressing sexy for my pleasure" angle, which is apparent from how many of the women in the video dressed as Slave Leia at the request of their husbands, from the 'booth babes' phenomenon (and the harassment 'booth babes' experience), and as a broader pressure that women con-goers are probably feeling even if it's not as explicit as "hey, wear this costume".

-The "Slave Leia is a figure of triumph" angle vs. the "hey, but Leia is *always* a figure of triumph" angle, as seen in the two blog posts.

-The "walking around at a crowded con all day gets really freaking hot" angle.posted by capricorn at 2:22 PM on November 10, 2012

No, no, no. The Ewok hate came from having seen the Christmas Special and knowing that the Ewoks were supposed to be Chewbacca's people who had been depicted living exactly the same way. It's not that the Ewoks were "girls' toys," it's that they were fucking plush toys instead of characters and it looked very much like the only reason for that was to sell said plush toys.

Of course by this time we had seen the dramatic success of the Star Wars swag market and how thoroughly Lucas exploited it, but the idea that he'd substitute fucking plush toys for the homeworld of a main character was extremely insulting.

Oh, that wasn't the topic, was it?

By ROTJ Lucas was treading old ground with the spaceships and lasers, even if he had better technology. The mostly naked slave girl (even better with ugly alien owner from which to rescue her) was another staple of those pulp SF stories Lucas was realizing so impressively on the silver screen.

It's hard to remember from this world of instant Rule 34 porn delivery and S&M workshops that in 1983 S&M themed images were like little shiny nuggets of wow to be plucked from the media wherever they might be found, and most such nuggets were either brief, fully clothed, played as gags, segued to unsexy violence, and/or in movies you might not want to admit to certain people that you liked. Slave Leia was one of the most provocative S&M images ever incorporated into such a popular movie when ROTJ was released and unlike A Clockwork Orange you could acceptably see it in a theatre with your parents.posted by localroger at 2:48 PM on November 10, 2012 [7 favorites]

Snowsuit Leia FTW

I predict few husbands will be requesting that costume as a sexy surprise. (Though on cold mornings my partner wears something very similar -- the roleplay implications have yet to be discussed.)posted by Forktine at 2:52 PM on November 10, 2012 [1 favorite]

There's so much that's weird about Star Wars. Remember that scene where Leia kisses Luke in Empire? A longer scene was filmed, where Luke and Leia almost kiss romantically, but that was mercifully cut, considering what their relationship turned out to be.

Blaming the Internet for Friends seems unfair.posted by Artw at 5:59 PM on November 10, 2012

Complicated. I just wish we'd had a world where we could have had the series without this scene, and seen what Leia's pop culture image would have been then.posted by Miko at 6:39 PM on November 10, 2012 [2 favorites]

Nobody is talking about the short story in the first link, you guys! It's not really about Slave Leia, only it kind of is, and it's pretty good, and we should be talking about that.posted by KGMoney at 6:58 PM on November 10, 2012 [1 favorite]

The one thing that SL costume lacks is Carrie. There's never been another Leia like her.

All I know is that wookies don't get shirts or pants
mmmm, Rule 34
Rowwarrr!

This past summer, I hosted the 10th anniversary party for LeasMetalBikini.com at my house. Jamin (the owner of the site and crafter of the vast majority of Slave Leia costumes being worn at cons) invited about 20 girls over, and we rented a "sail barge" (giant limo) and visited Gentle Giant and Legacy Effects (Stan Winston's studio)

Certainly there was a lot of "fan service" going on, and the girls all knew the score, but we all had a great time. There were Leias of all different shapes and sizes, and while I can't speak for the girls themselves, I did receive a few reports of feeling "empowered" by the experience. Or at least a thrill at making all heads turn when you enter a room. Maybe that was "wrong" somehow, and the whole thing set the feminist movement back decades, but everyone had fun, and sometimes fun is enough.

As for being "uncreative" or "cliche" among cosplayers, that's certainly an argument that is brought up frequently, and it's not inaccurate. But maybe the Slave Leia costume is the cosplay equivalent of the "little black club dress." Everybody wears them, and they're cliche, but it's considered an essential item in that type of wardrobe.posted by ShutterBun at 7:21 PM on November 10, 2012 [4 favorites]

Maybe that was "wrong" somehow, and the whole thing set the feminist movement back decades

It does explain a lot of the Republican candidate comments in the past few months...posted by hippybear at 7:23 PM on November 10, 2012

Nobody is talking about the short story in the first link, you guys! It's not really about Slave Leia, only it kind of is, and it's pretty good, and we should be talking about that.

There's a whole other post on types of bottle episode I could base on it, but I took the easy way out.posted by Artw at 7:53 PM on November 10, 2012

BREAKING NEWS: Alt-sex nerds discover they MAY JUST LIKE alt-sex in nerd movies. THIS JUST IN: Jared "The Goblin King" may appeal to some women, despite his OVERT AND UNAPOLOGETIC villainy.posted by Slap*Happy at 9:02 PM on November 10, 2012 [3 favorites]

I made this point in an earlier cosplay thread:

Slave-Leia is is the only distinctive+technically challenging costume worn by the only important female character in one of the biggest sci-fi movie franchises in history. I accept that there are many reasons why women cosplay "Slave-Leia", and that many of those reasons are "problematic", but I think this reason is good enough for this nerd girl. There is nothing worse than doing a cosplay that no one recognizes.

And yes, all cosplay is about getting attention. For some reason we don't feel compelled to point that out when we see a bit of, say, Bioshock cosplay.posted by muddgirl at 9:11 PM on November 10, 2012 [2 favorites]

So I run a table-top Star Wars RPG, and had cause to look up the entry for Jabba the Hutt on Wookieepedia. (I should note: I think it's a great setting, but I'm not exactly someone who reveres Star Wars.)

I always thought of the whole "slave Leia" thing as, "Motherfucker messed with my boyfriend, so I choked his ass to death with a chain. [Leia drops the mic and walks out]" I thought that regardless of the obvious cheesecake of it all, it was a great moment of female character empowerment. Leia didn't get rescued, she didn't scream or plead or cry like a damsel in distress... she killed the big bad guy all on her own.

But that Jabba the Hutt entry? Man. The number of times they used the terms "slave" and "master" just creeped me the hell out.posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:25 PM on November 10, 2012 [4 favorites]

I loved the story in the first link. Thanks, Artw! Lightspeed magazine looks like it might be worth checking out - I'm in the market for an SF magazine subscription since Analog's delivery to Europe turned out to be horribly spotty (four issues in twelve actually reached us :-( ).

I'd love to read the other bottle-plots FPP if you end up making it some time.posted by daisyk at 12:14 AM on November 11, 2012

Nothing gets better from having read up on all the details in Wookiepedia.posted by Artw at 6:37 AM on November 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

That first link was a fun read, Artw, thanks. Nice little story about television, writing and Jabba-killing. (Love that in the interview link she mentions she actually did have the job of walking Dustin Hoffman's dog.)posted by mediareport at 8:03 AM on November 11, 2012

lave-Leia is is the only distinctive+technically challenging costume worn by the only important female character in one of the biggest sci-fi movie franchises in history.

I think that's more the problematic part than the Leia in specific part.posted by Miko at 8:08 AM on November 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Slave-Leia is is the only distinctive+technically challenging costume worn by the only important female character in one of the biggest sci-fi movie franchises in history.

I don't know, Googling photos of 'Princess Amidala cosplay' turns up a certain non technically challenging costume as top hits.

People do cosplay as Bounty Hunter Leia.posted by muddgirl at 8:58 AM on November 11, 2012

Ya, they just don't get their picture as plastered all over the internet as the slave costume.

I wonder if there is a con that keeps track of what people come dressed up as. There sure is a risk of a confirmation bias on this issue and I see an awful lot of images of the same few people get posted to boards and not so much a great depth to the number of Slave Leia cosplays.posted by Mitheral at 9:52 AM on November 11, 2012

One is clearly much more popular than the other. So it can't just be about a costume that is distinctive and technically challenging to create or wear. Which is fine, people can choose to dress up however they like. I personally just find the adoration and popularity of the Slave Leia costume odd.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:02 AM on November 11, 2012

Not sure I've ever seen a Bounty Hunter Leia at a Con. Plenty of Slave Leia and Doughnut Head Gown Leia.posted by Artw at 10:06 AM on November 11, 2012

KGmoney, we should all indeed talk more about that story. For one thing, I like thinking of Trevor as an analog to Jabba. But then I like my metaphors obvious like that.posted by happyroach at 10:29 AM on November 11, 2012

I don't really know how I feel about the fact that so many women seem to love dressing up as slave Leia. I also am not so sure about those shorts with words on the butt, and about guys wearing sport jackets with t-shirts. Thankfully, it doesn't really matter how I feel. People can wear whatever the hell they want.posted by koeselitz at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

guys wearing sport jackets with t-shirts

We have Miami Vice to thank for that, actually.posted by hippybear at 10:58 AM on November 11, 2012

Is the Bounty Hunter costume actually "distinctive", though? Isn't Leia impersonating Boushh, so the costume is literally not "distinctive"?

I know I'm being very picky, here, but I do think it's an important point that Leia basically has two outfits: Sexy Slave/Ewok Princess, or desexedcompletely, and that until the late 90s she was the only female representative of the Star Wars movies. It's not surprising to me that some women chose sexy, and that sexy costumes get more attention from the predominantly male fan base. Is this any different from non-fandom?

Nowadays there is a much wider representation of women in sci-fi/fantasy media, and there is a wider representation of female characters in cosplay. And yet it's still hard to find a gallery of cosplaying women that's not labeled 'Sexy'*. That seems like a bigger problem to me.

* (Women of Comicbook Cosplay is a notable exception that features accurate or creative costuming that ranges from explicitely sexy, to feminine, to utilitarian, to gender-bending)posted by muddgirl at 11:14 AM on November 11, 2012

Tanizaki: "Did we see the same movie? Leia's big job at the Battle of Endor was to get lost."

I'm not saying Leia is the "girls toy". I was saying that the walking teddybear plushes that she was interacting with while wearing the rebel commando outfit would have been seen by a girls toy (despite the efforts to butch them up by having them kick stormtrooper ass) and as such, would have made that outfit less liked by association among the young boys watching the film for the first time who would grow up to discuss this franchise to death.

Slap*Happy: "THIS JUST IN: Jared "The Goblin King" may appeal to some women, despite his OVERT AND UNAPOLOGETIC villainy."

Villainy? Is that what they're calling the Goblin King's crotch these days?posted by radwolf76 at 12:10 PM on November 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Is the Bounty Hunter costume actually "distinctive", though? Isn't Leia impersonating Boushh, so the costume is literally not "distinctive"?

We're using distinctive in two different ways. I don't see how anyone could look at the costume and say it was visually interesting, aka distinctive.

Tanizaki: "Did we see the same movie? Leia's big job at the Battle of Endor was to get lost."

Other than chase stormtroopers, kill them, get injured while doing that and then establish diplomatic relations with the native population, who helped them defeat the Empire, you're right.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:31 PM on November 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Isn't Leia impersonating Boushh

Until all the Expanded Universe nonsense, Boushh was the name of the disguise Leia was using in ROTJ. There was no backstory, she wasn't impersonating anyone. That was the name of the identity she assumed to get into Jabba's palace.

It's only through backfill and such via the SW novels that we learn that there ever was a Boushh that existed outside of that particular incident.

It's an interesting backstory and one which works overall, but is pretty much shoehorned in to what was otherwise one of those enigmatic "this is all bigger than is being depicted on the screen" things which made the original Star Wars series so deep and worthwhile.posted by hippybear at 12:38 PM on November 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I know I'm being very picky, here, but I do think it's an important point that Leia basically has two outfits: Sexy Slave/Ewok Princess, or desexed completely,

The "desexed" link goes to photos of her in that white gown which are anything but desexed. George Lucas apparently had some crazy ideas about underwear in outer space, and that thin white dress didn't hide much:

He explained that in space you get weightless, and so your flesh expands. What? But your bra doesn’t, so you get strangled by your bra. That’s why I couldn’t wear a bra in the first Star Wars. George actually came backstage when I did the show in San Francisco and told me that.(cite)

I get that women maybe want to show a little more skin but it's kind of ridiculous to suggest that if you're not wearing a sci-fi bra and panties then you're essentially a nun. That's not how she was portrayed in the movies and even snowsuit Leia has a fair bit of sex appealposted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:09 PM on November 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

The Boushh costume is a lot of work. For the last couple years I've been helping a friend put one together when we both have the spare time. That helmet took forever to get right. It should finally be ready for Norwescon next March.

We also just recently put together the Slave outfit. One weekend to make the boots, sculpt the metal parts and create the wax masters. Another weekend to cast it in aluminum bronze, clean it up, and put it together with the cloth bits. While officially made for her, if you're at Norwescon and see a guy in a metal bikini being led around on a chain by Boushh, say hi.posted by the_artificer at 4:44 PM on November 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Shouldn't you be a wookie?posted by Artw at 5:27 PM on November 11, 2012

Yet there aren't many Endor Leia's are there? That's when she was part of a small strike force critical to the Rebel's success, chased after Stormtroopers by herself (Luke had to catch up with her) and later, though injured, still had her head in the game enough to fool the enemy and attack them when they thought her team was done for.

My daughter decided to be Princess Leia for Halloween the year she was five. I expected she meant white gown/cinnamon buns Leia, but in fact, she meant Endor Leia, with camouflage, speeder helmet, and accompanying blaster. A fun costume to put together.

She's followed a similar pattern ever since. Fourth wave feminism looks like it's going to be pretty neat, you guys.posted by padraigin at 6:18 PM on November 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Is slave leia actually a popular costume? It seems pretty hard to do, not just sewing, and requires showing a lot of skin.posted by smackfu at 6:42 PM on November 11, 2012

No doubt it's popular on image blogs but that could be skewed because of the prurient interest.posted by Mitheral at 7:27 PM on November 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Other than chase stormtroopers, kill them, get injured while doing that and then establish diplomatic relations with the native population, who helped them defeat the Empire, you're right.

"Getting injured" is not an accomplishment. In warfare, one generally attempts to stay uninjured while injuring the opponent. How many stromtroopers does she kill? Two, and only after doing the "I can't believe you shot a girl" tactic from "Dodgeball: A True Underdog Story". She never shoots a stormtrooper that she chased.

I was waiting for someone to claim her "diplomacy" with the Ewoks. She was so good at diplomacy that when the Ewoks bring the rest of the party to the village, they promptly commence to roasting the rebels on a spit and ignore her her pleas translated through C-3PO to leave her friends alone. If Luke hadn't floated C-3PO around the village, they would have all been dinner.

But at least she got her hair did.posted by Tanizaki at 5:17 AM on November 12, 2012

I've never been to a con (*sniff* I have self-respect *sniff) where cosplay was a Thing, but I have seen hepas of photos, and I think Slave Leia is indeed A Thing, and it's probably over-represented.

But, as a kid, I loved Boushh. I had two Leias: Leia Organa (1977/78 version) and Boushh.
When Boushh came along, Leia finally got to do stuff not just be the Death Star nurse.

I think she even married Squid Head at one point.

(Also, I never saw the Ewoks as teddy bears. We loved them. They were us: the powerless against the powerful. It annoys me when people don't see that).posted by Mezentian at 5:25 AM on November 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I don't know who has claimed that. I would disagree and say that in fact, injuries can make one's accomplishments greater. I have only claimed that being injured, in and of itself, is not an accomplishment.

It still is unclear what Leia accomplished on Endor. She shot two stormtroopers. Ok, that's nice. I don't know how that becomes "mops the forest floor".posted by Tanizaki at 11:35 AM on November 12, 2012

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