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I do have a question about my hand position. I mentioned this in another thread and received helpful answers but varied. My problem is this...when I play, my 5th finger sticks straight up. Actually, it's not only when I play. It seems to be a habit I formed while doing any number of things like typing, drinking out of a cup (not kidding ), and more. It happens on both hands and I don't feel any tension although it's probably there. Some responses I've received have said not to worry about it and others say I should try to fix it. Are there exercises I can do to correct this? Everything I've tried so far has failed.

Although I'm not real crazy about the *smallness* of my hands (can reach an octave) I'm actually glad I don't have long "spider fingers" because I think it's *so* easy for those who have them to fall into the habit of having straight/bent backward fingers.

I like the idea of an effort-free way of getting a basic hand shape, and the idea of efficiency and how he relates this to the keyboard. At the same time I have some questions and observations.

Some time back I learned a new instrument and after a year I learned things from the Internet. A lot of the advice was good, but I understood it too literally and didn't know that things vary according to other things going on. If the same thing is given by a teacher, then he'll observe and have you adjust things. Sometimes I understood but wasn't doing what was in the book or video, but didn't know it - and sometimes I only thought I understood. I got into some problems even when the stuff was good, AND I gained from it.

This leads to questions (clarification) for Mr. Estrin: I get what you are saying about this way of forming the hand bringing you into an efficient area of the keyboard, and why that is efficient. But I might also get the idea that we restrict ourselves to having the hands in that area when playing anything. I'm thinking that you intend this more like a home base and a general starting point - is this right?

At this moment I am learning to move in and out of the black key area according to the music I am playing, and have been encouraged to watch good pianists. So this idea of staying in one area really struck me. Then when I watched you play, Mr. Estrin, I saw that this region of the keyboard looked like your home base, but that you moved freely in and out (I watched the left hand, and other videos). So this made me think that you are giving a first home base which is a good place to be generally, and some first good principals. But NOT to stay only in that area no matter what. Is that correct?

I really appreciate all the comments on the video. There will be more videos coming soon on a wide range of topics including memorization, sightreading and more. What I showed in this video is an approach to the keyboard that offers the most relaxed position requiring minimal effort to maintain. It also places the fingers where they can easily reach black and white keys with equal ease. However, this is an ideal to strive for. Watching some of the greatest pianos of all time, like Vladimir Horowitz, you will see interesting deviations on these ideals. If you don't sense tension as in the raised 5th finger, it may not be a problem. If you would like to try achieving a more perfect hand position, try slow practice. This gives you an opportunity to study your hands and work on being over the keys so your fingers have the minimal distance and effort in playing. You can work on hand position with your music as well as with scales and arpeggios.

This leads to questions (clarification) for Mr. Estrin: I get what you are saying about this way of forming the hand bringing you into an efficient area of the keyboard, and why that is efficient. But I might also get the idea that we restrict ourselves to having the hands in that area when playing anything. I'm thinking that you intend this more like a home base and a general starting point - is this right?

At this moment I am learning to move in and out of the black key area according to the music I am playing, and have been encouraged to watch good pianists. So this idea of staying in one area really struck me. Then when I watched you play, Mr. Estrin, I saw that this region of the keyboard looked like your home base, but that you moved freely in and out (I watched the left hand, and other videos). So this made me think that you are giving a first home base which is a good place to be generally, and some first good principals. But NOT to stay only in that area no matter what. Is that correct?

I'd say categorically - YES! Like many things this is something of an ideal which you strive to return to; but if you were to try to play everything like that you would fail.

My teacher keeps talking to me about the various touché (she's not French but uses that word) to use when playing different passages. Sometimes you will need more rounded fingers, sometimes flatter ones. As you note you'll need to adjust your handshape as you move into and out of the black keys. And, of course, stretches will cause adjustments too.

It does make me laugh a little bit when people talk about no longer playing as if there is a ball in your hand and similar things which must have gone out of style 30 years ago ... unless there are some really bad teachers out there!

I'm not sure my question was understood. I was not talking about the shape of the hand but the region of the keyboard. The video talks about not moving into the black key area but rather always staying in the white key area in front.

What the video talks about, keystring, is keeping the fingers at or near that part of the keyboard where the black and white keys meet as a default position. Bob did touch, very lightly, on it in his repsonse:

Originally Posted by bobestrin

It also places the fingers where they can easily reach black and white keys with equal ease. However, this is an ideal to strive for.

This parallels the 'minimum movement principle' in guitar playing and keeping the index fingers on the embossed keys (F and J) when touch typing. From this position the fingers can readily be curled for a Bach type touch, lengthened for a Liszt type touch and reach black keys and white keys with equal facility. It also places the fingers in the best position for knowing where they are on the keyboard from touching the adjacent black keys and feeling the B/C and E/F gaps.

I think I finally got the video they way it was intended. I was thrown by "to keep the hand at the point...." as advice to keep the hands at that line in front of the black keys. But now I understand that Bob is saying that having this shape to the hand ALLOWS you to be in this area of the keyboard from where you can reach both white and black keys with ease. So if your hand is spread with flat fingers for those kinds of passages, then the fact that the pinky is short placing it near the edge, and the middle finger is long, would force you to move in and out excessively because you * could not * easily reach all keys with all fingers with those flat fingers. So it is not an instruction to have the hand there, but that for many passages, this shape of the hand makes it possible to have this home position.

As I wrote, when I started my first instrument I followed some on-line things and things in books which I understood wrongly and this created mischief. For that reason I'm very careful about how I understand things.

There is another interesting thing about this video. That is, when Bob demonstrates how to get this hand shape, the down motion is at the wrist which is what we want to feel at the piano. Not so long ago, having learned self-taught as a child, I didn't have that. I only got that recently. Two weeks ago, if I had tried to do what the video says, I would have either braced my fingers insanely making them stiff, of I would have collapsed at the knuckles as I would try to pull the hand down - because I didn't have that feeling in the wrist. I would have thought I was doing what the video says. When I first tried what the demo shows, I was doing both of those things because they're my old habit. It felt "bad" because now I know what "good" feels like. Shirley had mentioned the wrist, so I noticed the wrist - and then I got something that looked good and also felt good. At that point it actually became something to help me get that new thing in the wrist.

I think Bob addresses something very important because people are caught between the old "as if holding a ball" which is "out" because it often leads to stiff rigidity, and a "like your hand hangs at your side" which is sort of nowhere. So this gives us the shape but with a good feel to it (if we can reach it the right way) and also a *reason". Now I feel that I have actually understood that video.

LOVED the video! I am so grateful for this- really really needed to know all that- been having the wrong hand position for ages!I find Robert very engaging and interesting to learn from- many many thanks to him! I look forward to more.

Hi, Robert. Thank you for the informative video. If you are thinking of other videos to produce, I would like to make a recommendation - could you explain the circle of 5ths to adults possibly who are learning theory? I know this is a far cry from hand position but theory questions are more difficult for me to grasp as an adult than when I was a kid.