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I own a Bible and my housekeeper recently found it! In years past I have read the Bible and listened to it on tape. I have also read a lot about how religions evolved, where Christianity came from and the history of Christianity.

John 3:16 is one of the many verses that proves the ridiculousness of the Bible. Isn't that the one that goes "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life" or something like that? What a farce!

The point that causes this verse to fall apart is that God did not give His Son. If we are to believe the doubletalk of the Bible, Jesus (God's Son) is still with God. The Bible says both of Them are eternal. So exactly what is God supposed to have given? If you believe the story, all God did was put his supposed Son through a three-act play.

Act I - Jesus is born of a virgin (copying previous myths) and lives out his life, doing some parlor tricks for a few years but unheralded during most of his life. He never uses His magic and power to do any widespread good. He picks a random person here or there to help. He speaks some parables that have been written before in other religious texts that precede the Christian books.

By the way, walking on water comes from earlier religions where God was the Sun. The Son of God was the reflection of the Sun on water. People in those days did not know about reflections. This "logic" worked for them. Other God figures have had Sons, too. This is built into each religion because everyone know that life does not go on forever. The Son serves as a back-up God. The same metaphor -- Son of God -- was carried into Christianity.

Act II - He is crucified, dead and buried.

Act III - He resurrects, is seen by a few co-conspirators, and then ascents into heaven to be with His Father.

The end result: God has not lost His Son. John 3:16 is a farce. The play is promoted heavily. At first it does poorly. Finally it takes hold thanks to the Romans who want to own a powerful church for their own political reasons. They cleverly pull religion together under their control. From then on Christianity gets mixed reviews and a billion people are still buying it 2,000 years later.

I see (most, if not all) religions as a metaphor for real life.

I am thankful for all the billions of people (these people, collectively, are my Jesus) who have come before me to make my world what it is. Many millions have suffered far more than the purported Jesus suffering (one little crucifixion). They did not give their lives knowingly for me, but that was the effect. They built the base of knowledge and the base of culture that have lead to you and me. It's pretty magnificent.

A few of the billions have been gifted and notable. As intellectuals, mathematicians, writers, scientists, leaders, explorers, teachers, engineers and Sploofus participants, they lived on the leading edge of the human adventure. But the masses were every bit as important as the superstars. We all depend on one another. There could not have been a DaVinci, a Newton, a Darwin, an Einstein, a Bell, an Edison or a Bill Gates without the experiences and infrastructure that their co-inhabitants provided. The superstars needed farmers to grow their food, customers to buy their light bulbs, telephones and software. The interconnections are as amazing as life itself.

As for everlasting life, no one is going to get that, not even YOUR God. The Universe will blink out one of these days. It may be billions of years in the future, but it ain't forever. Long before that, our sun will expand, engulf the earth and explode. In the short term I can have "extended impact" through my daughter, through my grandson and through the people I influence during my life. My body won't live on, and there is no such thing as a soul or spirit, but my influence will be just as valuable to future generations as the influence of past people has been to me. I am part of their God system.

I love this universe. I love my planet. I love all of nature which is connected to my past. I love the people who have sacrificed and learned and invented for me. I love knowledge and literature. Even make believe stuff such as Christianity can be fun when taken in its proper context.

In twenty or so years I will physically die. So what? Every living thing dies. My goal during life is to be as open as possible so I can experience as much as possible of this beautiful planet and universe...and of knowledge itself.

I feel sorry for people who narrow their world with Christianity or some other cult of their choice. But I grant them the freedom to think and do whatever they want, as long as they don't impose on me too much. No, I am not going to reread those Bible verses.

Love,
Bob

PS - I hope this is not considered "offensive content." That is not intended.

I think it's ever-so-slightly disingenuous to call other peoples' cherished beliefs ridiculous and then say you don't mean to offend. Whatever you believe or don't believe, there's no need for this here.

To be fair, we do frequently have people using this space to ask for prayers. And those posting do often refer to their personal beliefs--although not usually at such length! But let's not pretend that some never-breached line has been crossed when it is crossed almost daily.

You can pray for someone in any religion or with none. My problem (and I am not a Christian) is with the stated intention of proving the ridiculousness of someone else's beliefs. Surely that's contrary to the spirit of what we're about here?

Dear Smoke20: You make a good point. I could remove the word "ridiculousness." Maybe there are one or two other inflammatory words, but I think it is clear that the posting was not intended to insult or hurt anyone. I assume you are strong in your beliefs and cannot be hurt by another's intellectual opinion. People proclaim their beliefs on national TV and in every other possible forum every day. They often are very specific in their ridicule or insult toward all who believe differently. The presidential debates are a case in point. Even if one were to omit all the "wrong" words, whenever a person's core beliefs are questioned in the slightest way it feels like an attack. I posted my thoughts to stimulate intellectual exchange and it seems to be happening. Thank you for your comments. Next time I will edit out the harsher words. No offense intended.

No one here has ever ridiculed me for my beliefs or lack of them. I don't talk about it because it IS inflammatory and this is meant to be an island of peace and mutual respect. When people ask me to pray for them, I understand that they are asking for me to care that they are frightened and worried, and to keep good feelings in my heart for them, and I do with all sincerity.

Yes, I know there are offensively pushy Christians who disrespect the beliefs of others and reflect poorly on their fellow believers. The same applies to atheists.

Lots if interesting words there, and lots of thought put into them...but please, do not feel sorry for me. I'll still pray for you even if you don't ask

But I don't ever stand on a podium and preach - I was sad when my favorite cousin died unexpectedly earlier this year knowing that she didn't believe in God...although I always found her particular "bend" odd, a conservative athiest - we always had a wonderful time, she never ridiculed my children, and my son, who was sad that she did not believe in God, played his favorite Casting Crowns song for her one Christmas, and made HIM feel important by telling him how great the song and the words were...so my loving cousin that I miss and I had different views, but I did not call hers ridiculous nor did she say that to me.

Belief is personal - and should never be attacked...we all have reasons for what we believe, and although I was raised as a Christian, I have not always lived that way. MAJOR interventions in my life cause me to believe without wavering, in what I believe.

I love the diversity of all of the people in Sploofus and the fact that the majority of the time, we can all live together peacefully - and as my programming partner says...we all need to be more like a box of crayons - all different colors living peacefully in one box

"I feel sorry for people who narrow their world with Christianity or some other cult of their choice. But I grant them the freedom to think and do whatever they want, as long as they don't impose on me too much."

Thank you Bob for granting me the freedom to think, and do whatever I want, (although I was not aware I needed your permission), and I will not impose too much of my beliefs on you,(at least not 15 paragraphs). Rocco

Cynical observers want to know: Is this point of view actually "A"theist? or would it be considered more "ANTI"theist? Why are you posting a diatribe ridiculing religion in a forum on a site which is primarily secular? Did an evangelizing Christian recently shoot your pa?

there's no such thing as an athiest.. I mean the only true way for there to be an athiest is for the person to not believe in good or evil.. otherwise, you believe in something therefore you can't be an athiest.. I mean, whether a christian calls good "God" or "Christ" or "Jesus" doesn't change the fact that it's good. same with "Satan", "The Devil" or evil..

good and evil exist.. yin/yang, right/wrong, whatever you want to call it.. if you don't believe that good/evil exist then you believe in nothing, not yourself, not anything, because in order to believe in yourself, you have to believe that what you are doing is right, or good..

and if you DON'T believe in good/evil then I really do feal sorry for you, because you are living in some kind of fantasy world where things just happen for the sake of happening, there's no drive behind it, no fate, no destiny, no reason, it just is.. sounds like a world I personally would never want to visit.

Justin

Tue, 25th Sep '07 3:29 PM

Your housekeeper needs a raise!

Over the past 4 years I've somehow managed to not take the bait and get involved in religious or political debate here on Sploofus. But you are clearly far too intelligent to just waste away.

By your interpretation, I am one of the most ridiculous people you'll ever know. Have you ever heard of an individual named John Huss? Man was he ridiculous!

It's just too bad that the Roman church/state had to kill 50 million people and mangle the commandments of God to prove that their God is not the God of the Bible. They've done their job in showing us exactly what Jesus isn't.

Check out the books of Daniel and Revelation, then listen to the following 2 series of MP3s OBJECTIVELY. It's too bad that more Christians don't spend the time to fully understand these 2 books.

I'd love to hear what you have to say if you truly and honestly listen objectively to all of those MP3s, or at least the first 4 or 5 from each series. You seem very intelligent, so I am being completely transparent and honest when I say I really would love to hear what you take away from these audio clips. And, if you do not listen to all or most of them, you won't be able to make an intelligent, educated, founded reply.

Looking forward to hearing back from you in a few weeks:

Love,
Justin (Mr. Sploofus)

P.S. Please thank your housekeeper! If anyone is curious or would like to talk about John Huss, John Wycliffe, the Waldenses, Martin Luther, please message me!

"Is life absurd, without purpose and meaning, or is there a formula beneath the ferment? Is religion merely canonized illusion, morality a mirage, and the only remaining sin, as Nietzsche says, "the sin against the earth"; or does humanity's moral compass have a true North Pole? Is faith a leap into the absurd, or a leap over it? Though for centuries, science, philosophy, and logic have been used to dismantle faith, God, Godel, and Grace turns these hammers and chisels into tools that build a logical, philosophical, and even "scientific" basis for faith. Along the way, the book asks what almost everyone asks: Why does a loving God allow evil? What about the dilemma of death? And how can faith answer a leaping and bounding atheism? And it even asks what not everyone is asking, such as How does Kant's epistemology strengthen faith? What does quantum theory reveal about the limits of reason and special relativity about the limits of sense perception? And why can Kurt Godel's incompleteness theorem be a powerful tool in the hands of believers? Using everything from Beckett to C. S. Lewis, from the Gospels to the poetry of Wallace Stevens, this apologetic unapologetically confronts the hard questions that continually dog Christianity. And though one can never "prove" what needs to be taken on faith, it shows just how reasonable it can be to believe in what goes beyond reason. "

Folks: Man, this was interesting reading! I don't know that I've come to any conclusions because of it, but as Spock would say, "Fascinating". Not that it will lighten anyone's load, but I like to think of myself as an agnostic, thank God! keep the faith...
Whitebn

The real question is "Why did you even post this here?" This hardly seems like the appropriate forum. Whatever my beliefs are, I sure wouldn't plaster them on a trivia game site. It wasn't even in response to anything.

The way I see it...don't start none, won't be none. Maybe Bob wants to start some.

Justin

Tue, 25th Sep '07 5:20 PM

Bigbird,

It truly is a relevant topic that plays a fundamental role in life for many people - whether believers or not. Personally, I'm fascinated by it all. I don't think his intention was to sound so condescending.

I'd rather chat about the science and faith which contrasts Darwinism and creationism as opposed to the latest Friends episode or Britney Spears photo any day.

What I, too, would appreciate however is if it were done without trampling on the heart-felt beliefs of others (which I am also guilty of).

That said - I love the crayon analogy, but perhaps this island is better off without a church or political arena at all!

Well, Justin the thing is Bob did not start this discussion with, for example, a question for friendly debate. He immediately called those of us who believe in God and have a hope for the future beyond death ridiculous and part of a cult. I think that is why people are getting upset. There are better ways to start such a discussion. When I go to someone's door to dicuss God I don't come in like a bull in a china shop and start degrading their beliefs and calling them deluded. I start with a question and try to get a discussion going. And it usually goes well if we don't get the door slammed in our face. His insulting others is only going to repel people not draw them to his thinking. Just my opinion.

I am in CA right now, visiting my new grandson,Caiden Josiah Real, a true gift from God for which I am so thankful. My heart hurts for those who think my world is narrow by knowing Jesus, when, in fact, it is joyous and free and as wide as eternity. I'm sorry if a Christian has hurt any of you in the past "in the name of Jesus". Jesus came, not to condemn the world, but to save it John 3:17 I refuse to be angry at those who say unthoughtful thngs, but will choose to pray for them instead.
I will continue to pray for any sploofuser who asks, and for many of you who don't.
God bless you all,
Leah

The real question is "Why did you even post this here?" This hardly seems like the appropriate forum. Whatever my beliefs are, I sure wouldn't plaster them on a trivia game site. It wasn't even in response to anything.
Thanx Alice!

Seems to me that you esteem men and women who have died and not risen from the dead. That's your deal. When you are dead, you are dead. I would rather have Jesus than the deal of the dead. Thanks for sharing your views. Jesus is the spirit of liberty. He said "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free". The truth is, Jesus died and rose from the dead, and was witnessed by 11 disciples who were in hiding because they didn't think he was going to rise from the dead. They went on to share this truth at the cost of their own lives. What that is known as, in the scientific world, is an observation recorded by blood.

If you want to debate religion I suggest the following: www.beliefnet.com

AMEN! Good post and truth about the Roman Catholic Church (all one has to do is pick up some history books, and in their own literature they freely admit what they have done (changing God's own Commandments, especially with regards to the Sabbath).

Nice comment also about the books of Daniel and Revelation. Our church studies that a lot. You rock, Justin!

If no one ever discussed politics or religion - what would we believe in or argue about????

I personally tend to guage my opponent (& oh yes it is a war on occasion).
There are those that you cannot reason with - it is what it is - the sky is green and the grass is blue and I don't care WHAT the rest of the world says - yeah - I don't mess with those...waste of time.

There are those that sit on the opposite side of the fence, yet recognize the value of different opinions and are open to the possibilities of what genuine trading of information and thoughts can do...you know that thing called progress.

There are those that say "Because my Mom / Dad / ______________ (FIB) said so that's why" - don't really need to comment there....back up what you believe with your own self, not someone else's - don't let someone else tell you how to think!

My son's boyscout leader is a Jewish liberal (actually I'd probably call him more of a socialist) and I'm a Christian conservative (and not ashamed to say it). I don't agree with all people who call themselves what I do. I have very good and interesting converstaions with my son's boy scout leader - and actually we have both learned things from each other - because we have been raised and sought knowledge from a totally different perspective. THAT makes life interesting!

This is a secular site and I do not believe criticising or even talking about religion has any place here, other than quizzes. If you have a need to comment on other's beliefs, I suggest you go to BELIEFNET to air your gripes. There is nothing like politics and religion to stir people's emotions and passions. This is a site for people to relax and unwind, not to feel as if they must defend what they sincerely believe.

Think about this...if everyone in the world made kindness a dogma there would be no need for religion of any kind. That's all it is,kindness, an extremely simple premise but one of the hardest to do. Practice a random act of kindness today and every day. It's amazing how good it can make you feel and to the person on the other end of your kindness. Will Durant said that the only time there will be peace on earth is if we are attacked from outside. In other words, all our fellow creatures would be standing shoulder to shoulder if we should be attacked by an alien world. It is both a hopeful and pathetic prospect.

Geophile, you have a point. Then again, the title of the thread pretty much tells you it's a religious discussion and those that don't want to go there don't have to open it up and read it. I have no problem discussing religion if everyone involved is respectful and tactful and don't start slamming people's beliefs. That is when things turn ugly. We can all be reasonable if we try hard enough.

At the moment i am reading "The Power of Compassion",The Dalai Lama,the key word for me is "Compassion".Regardless of color,race,creed,religion,etc.I also read a lot concerning Chris Floyd who was a reporter for the Moscow Times,having lost his journalistic partner to kidnapping and then sadly execuation.

It was then that he was smuggled out of Irac and thanks to a higher power is now safe at home.I know this sounds a bit "off track" but in the big scheme of things,there is Always a higher power.Chris Floyd is a wonderful journalist but does not hold back so better have a thick skin,lol.Being part MiqKmaug i guess i have a diff. outlook on life,the forest is my church,the animals my fellow friends.Takes all kinds and now that i am done babbling,i will get out of your way,lol.Take care every one.
Karen

Wow - First of all.... I am curious what prompted the 1st post to begin with. It is labeled "a response".

A response to what? Filling us in on who the response is to might open some eyes...

Finally, I have always found that whoever and whatever belief someone has, he almost always believes himself to be morally, intellectually superior to those who believe otherwise. I have also found there are generally 2 types of atheists: Daily Life Atheists - Those people who live their life as if there is no god, really don't think about it, and really don't care.

The second kind seems to fit our Thread creator: Militant Atheists - Those people who make a religion out of NOT believing in God, and are of the position that they should take inordinate amounts of time trying to convince the rest of us to join their religion as well. Clearly our Bob has made being an Atheist a religion and a faith. By Definition, Faith is the belief in things unseen. What a powerful faith to believe that Christianity was just a conspiracy............

Finally, ( really this time) some posts suggest this is not the place for religious discussion. I don't recall any Sploofus rules stating that certain subjects are taboo if they might make someone else uncomfortable.

I support our president, but don't claim "This is no place for political discussion" if someone says he is a crack smokin doofus" I sometimes use quizzes to hint to my political leanings, but, taking my quizzes doesn't make you a conservative, any more than taking Smoke's quizzes makes me a Nascar Fan (speaking of religions).

I say, BRING ON THE UNCOMFORTABLE TOPICS. As long as they don't personally attack, contain language that would get me sent to the principal's office, or support/promote illegal activity, let's argue.

I'm going along with Karen. Duke it out, but just remember...everything is just commentary and opinion. The Ten Commandments were a marvelous gift, even if you don't believe in religion at all. They were given to keep us from hurting ourselves and from hurting others. Sure, we break them from time to time and we usually hurt because of it. Maybe that's the "hell" of it. By listening to what others have to say, we can form our own theology. Sorry is the mind that won't open to hear words that can change lives. I can read the Quoran and be amazed that the Virgin Mary is mentioned more times than in the Christian Bible. I can read the Dalai Lama's philosophy and gain marvelous insights into happiness. And I would rather see a person "born again" than still lying in the gutter with an alcohol problem. Okay, I go now...