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Last Wednesday the Financial Times ran a piece indicating that Tesla was now formally setting its sights on Europe. This is the first of what will be an increasing effort on our part to build the Tesla brand on the European continent with the anticipation of delivering cars to customers starting in the middle of 2009.

The idea that Tesla would expand internationally is nothing new – that has been our intention all along. There are many reasons why Europe is a very attractive market, outlined below. The thing that is new here is the timing of our expansion plans.

While issues of global warming and sustainability have become part of the mainstream progressive thinking in the United States in the past couple of years, Europeans have been passionate about them for a while now.

This is evidenced in part by high gas prices (due to gas taxes) and vehicle registration fees that have been established in many European countries to drive consumers to greener transportation alternatives such as public transport and alternative fuel vehicle technologies.

An enviable consequence of this is a very robust rail system and a thriving market for small displacement, high efficiency vehicles. About half of the passenger cars in Europe are diesels, with the latest models sporting similar MPG ratings to the best hybrid alternatives such as the Prius. The goals that have been set for CO2 emissions for auto manufacturers in Europe are more aggressive than even the recently strengthened CAFE standards in the US.

Related to these efforts to drive consumers to green alternatives are significant tax preferences for EVs in certain countries, such as Norway, where a similar vehicle to the Tesla Roadster powered by an internal combustion engine would carry a 100% registration tax, whereas the Tesla owner will pay no registration tax.

Last, but certainly not least, is the exchange rate between the Dollar and the Euro (or Pound Sterling). Over the last two years, the value of the dollar has fallen significantly against that of the Euro and Pound (see this chart). This simultaneously puts pressure on US pricing and makes Euro sales more attractive. Remember that a sizable portion of our car parts and labor are paid in Euros or Pounds.

Back to the timing of this effort - under prior rules and regulations, homologating a new car for sale across Europe would have been complex and resource intensive. Recently, the situation changed for the better - new rules will be introduced in April 2009 that simplify the homologation of Electric Vehicles across the EU, including special provisions for low volume manufacturers. This simplifies the effort for Tesla Motors to introduce the Tesla Roadster into Europe as a special limited edition in 2009, ahead of our original schedule.

This special limited edition will sell for 99,000 Euros for a fully loaded car, to be delivered in 2009 shortly after the rule change takes effect. Similar to our early customers in the US, Europeans who reserve the car early will receive a special edition version of the world’s best high-performance electric vehicle. For details on reserving this special edition Roadster contact Tesla at eurosales@teslamotors.com or call +1 650-413-6200.

Part of the plan for Europe is to establish company-owned sales and service facilities. We haven’t yet made any final decisions on exactly where Tesla will be located but will communicate these plans as they develop. Integrating all aspects of the customer experience with Tesla is an important part of our strategy in both the US and globally.

Our first planned event in Europe will be at the Top Marques Monaco from April 24-27. I will be there personally, along with several other Teslans from the San Carlos and Hethel, UK office. I encourage Tesla fans and potential customers in Europe to join us there to take a close look at the cars, introduce yourselves, and pick up an information packet on the 2009 European reservation process.

In addition to Monaco, we are currently planning to exhibit with a key vendor at the Paris Auto Show in October. We will of course be participating in additional venues in Europe, and will be expanding our marketing plans over the next months. If you are a member of the European press or want to discuss marketing opportunities in Europe please drop me an email at siry@teslamotors.com. If you are European Tesla fan, help us spread the word by asking your local news and magazine to check out Tesla.

Since we launched the Tesla Roadster in the US, there has been extraordinary interest from European customers and media. Now that we are in production, we are excited to offer this groundbreaking car to Europeans who want to be the first on the continent to drive a car with extraordinary performance, beautiful styling, and zero emissions.

Meanwhile, production continues apace and we are preparing for the opening of the Los Angeles and Menlo Park stores and the delivery of cars to customers. Things here are, to say the least, very busy.

Does this alter any of the plans or schedule for White Star production in the US?

Joseph

6:11pm | Apr 8, 2008

"This special limited edition will sell for 99,000 Euros for a fully loaded car"

You said there's no registration tax, but does this include any other special taxes? ( I know nothing about Europe :) )

Mark Tebbutt

6:22pm | Apr 8, 2008

Hi was just wondering if Tesla could confirm or deny that the inital European Tesla Roadsters will not be offered in right hand drive form to the UK market.?

Initial Roadsters in the UK will be left hand drive -ed.

Sindre Berg

9:28pm | Apr 8, 2008

Congratulations on moving up the European schedule.
I was wondering if the quoted price of 99 000 Euro is including the VAT rate of the country you will be selling in or if you add the VAT rate on top of that?
I might add that at 26th of april there will be a greencar exhibit in downtown Oslo. Source: http://www.zero.no/transport/elbil/klimabil-2008/ (unfortunately in Norwegian only, contact me and I'll translate into understandable English).

Here in Oz, a car on 'gas" is one running LPG. Perhaps "fuel tax" is a more sensible term, with the Tesla Roadster hopefully attracting a fuel tax = €0

Petrol, Diesel, LPG and Electric...nice to have options :-)

Raymond Michiels

10:05pm | Apr 8, 2008

"This special limited edition will sell for 99,000 Euros for a fully loaded car".

I wonder if Tesla knows that EU sticker prices always include applicable taxes (such as VAT of 19% or more)...

Since tax and registration varies by country we are quoting a price excluding VAT and other taxes -ed.

Darin Ladd

10:57pm | Apr 8, 2008

I have to admit, my first reaction is "keep your eye on the ball."

electrogeek

12:03am | Apr 9, 2008

YESSSS!!! this is wonderful news! :)
although i believe 99k€ is waaay to expensive. but europeans are not stupid - so why should we buy a car for like 66k$ MORE, than it is in the US?
we will rather import one from the US on our own costs then! ;)

Have you looked at US prices for Porsches in comparison to Euro prices? - ed.

Jacob Riis

1:17am | Apr 9, 2008

I can inform you that cars in Denmark are heavily taxed. There is a purchase tax buying a new car of 105 % for the first ~15.000 $ You pay 180 % taxes for the amount exceeding this limit.

_Electric does not have a tax like that._

Dong Energy and Project Better Place have decided to launch their electric cars in Denmark. Should be good for the infrastructure...

More than 20% of electricity comes from windmills. During a windy night we produce so much electricity that we have to sell it to our neighbors for very little money. Smarter to recharge the cars...

in 2009 there will be a UN climate conference in Copenhagen.

Denmark is a small and rich country, perfect for testing out a new market.

It sounds like all the stars have aligned for the folks over in Europe. They always get so lucky when it comes to the kinds of cars made available to them. It's probably going to blow their mind that they're getting something AFTER the folks in America for once!

surely I had bought the Tesla roaster for 90.000 USD
never for 99.000 euros !

Jason M. Hendler

8:03am | Apr 9, 2008

Excellent move. How compatible is the US vehicle to standards in various European nations? Obviously many nations use 220V / 50 cycle power, so the converters would be different, but are there any other regulatory hurdles?

Björn Nilsson

10:12am | Apr 9, 2008

YAY! And here i was, HOPING for a euro-launch sometime 2012-ish :-) I have emailed the top newspapers in Sweden. It´s way overdue that Tesla gets some serious media coverage over here. Hopefully (although im sad to say not likely) the Swedish auto press wakes up and stops gabbering on about ethanol vs diesel soon.

Matej

10:51am | Apr 9, 2008

Excellent move, indeed.
I just still consider an electric car for 100k€ way too expensive. I mean, for an average european. Average european does not need 4sec acceleration and carbon fiber body, they need an affordable electric car.
It feels sad to me that this world-saving technology is spreading so slowly. I wish that you, or whoever else would make affordable EVs, so that most people really would be able to get them, and that would really change the world.
I know, you had to start somewhere. Maybe you just wanted to show the world that such a great car can be electricity powered, and you are doing this job very well. But I really hope that there will be some affordable electric car on the market soon.
Maybe Th!nk is the way to go...

Fshhead

11:05am | Apr 9, 2008

I recently saw an article saying the Roadster will be sold in Europe. This is great news except that we are still awaiting the completion of P2. So it’s been around three weeks since production started. Seems I remember hearing it would take four weeks. Any news on how close P2 is to final assembly? Really hoping to see some videos on it soon!!!!

George

11:05am | Apr 9, 2008

Hmm.. 99.000 EUR without taxes seems a bit too much considering a fully loaded US version is 105.000 USD = aprox 67.000 EUR and also "sizable portion of our car parts and labor are paid in Euros or Pounds". Can you give us some insight on this price increase ? Is this price higher to support initial investments in EU, and if this is the case can you tell us if the price will be reduced after the investments are covered and in how much time do you expect this to happen ?

Thanks,
George

Rich

6:26pm | Apr 9, 2008

Eric has a good question.

Does the move to release the roadster in Europe delay the planed production of the White Star line?

CM

9:56pm | Apr 9, 2008

" Obviously many nations use 220V / 50 cycle power, so the converters would be different, "

Tesla licensed the Reductive Charging technology from AC Propulstion. Reductive charging uses the circuitry of the motor inverter to regulate and adjust the voltage for charging, and it can run on a range of voltages from 100 up to 250 volts or so, and a range of frequencies including 60 Hz and 50 Hz. Theoretically, it could even run on DC, but finding 220 volt DC is really rare! So, except for the plugs, no modification is needed for European power.

The Roadster doesn't need a separate charge controller, and that saves a bit of cash.

The Reductive charger can also act as a "grid tie" inverter, feeding power from the batteries back to the grid, though Tesla Motors did not implement that function in the Roadster - standards for V2G have not been set yet. . It is possible some future Tesla model could even act as a portable emergency AC power supply!

Isaac Ladson

10:23pm | Apr 9, 2008

I would like to suggest that TMC give serious consideration to joining other car manufacturers in producing BEVs or BEV components for project "Better Place," which currently includes Israel and Denmark. The latest information on this project indicates other countries will be joining before the end of 2008, as will several additional manufacturers.

As many know this project has as it's major goal to free these countries from middle-east oil within ten years by implementing country wide BEVs and solar powered power stations. It is interesting to note that the project will provide an electrical receptacle any place there is a parking place through out the whole country. and, as I have suggested before, the batteries are rented separate from the car.

A recent study, conducted by Deutsche Bank, concluded that project "Better Place" is feasible not only for smaller countries, but also for larger countries like Germany and the United States.

This is all fine and dandy but what about actualy delivering already payed cars to costumers?

It’s 10th April, almost a month after “Tesla Motors Begins Regular Production of 2008 Tesla Roadster” and Martin Eberhard is still waiting for his car.
I'd say his one should be the one you made three weeks ago or is it?

Douglas

2:46am | Apr 10, 2008

I love the look of your car and would love to see one. I am curious if you are looking at Asia for marketing? I live in Korea and I believe that it is a perfect country for marketing your product. Korea is locked by water on three sides and North Korea on the other, so a 220 mile limit is not a huge problem. On top of that 48% of the population live in the Seoul metropolitan area, and gas prices are high…. Seems like a perfect marriage.

I have live in Korea for 18 years now and the pace of expansion is amazing, their ability to field new technologies in the fields of cell phones and the internet is aided by a high density population that has a desire for the latest and greatest….

If you ever come to Korea please let me know.

Malcolm Wilson

4:33am | Apr 10, 2008

Excellent news!

You have GOT to get this car on Top Gear :)

kert

5:32am | Apr 10, 2008

For everyone griping about the high price tag, keep the pressure on your local Mitsu and Subaru dealers to get the MiEV and R1e delivered sooner rather than later. I just did that for my local Mitsu guys, and actually got a reply from their sales director. They said that left-hand drive version will be there sometime 2010, IF they see demand and the pricing is right.

Congrats to your decision to sell the car also in Europe. I believe it will have a good chance to be successful. May I suggest to clarify the price details as soon as possible regarding the VAT as this can have alter the price tag significantly. Good luck anyway!

Dave

5:53am | Apr 10, 2008

What about safety? Let's see some crash test data. Impact with SUV's. I love TESLA's concepts, design, ethos and apreciate the team's hard work. It would be a shame to loose credibility due to the lack of crash testing.

Peter J Hedge

8:09am | Apr 10, 2008

So let me see if I have this right.

The Roadster will be buit in the UK then shipped to the US (west coast) where the battery and finshing touches will be installed/completed

Then it will re-cross the US and Atlantic to Europe where it will be sold.

No wonder it will cost the Europeans so much more.

Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC

Kevin Harney

11:07am | Apr 10, 2008

Dave,

The Roadster has passed all of the crash tests in the US.

Nubo

12:01pm | Apr 10, 2008

Well, congratulations to Europe now you can share the in the production run ( 000,000,001 served) :)

Well, I don't mean to be nasty, it just seems a bit premature. Otoh, maybe it's a sign that the ramp-up is succeeding!!

Good move, I had guessed that it would be 2 years before marketing to Europe. Surely it should be easy to make a right-hand drive version.
Dave: see http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=61 about crash testing.

Steve

2:25pm | Apr 10, 2008

Nubo, as the wise man said, even the longest journey begins with a single step.

Mark

5:32pm | Apr 10, 2008

I am thrilled that the roadster is heading to Europe! I am routing for Tesla Motors to suceed big. As I see it, generating substantial revenue through sales of an approved product like the Roadster will fund the White Star going from a sheet of paper (CAD/CAM on your computer is likely more accurate for the nit-pickers) to a product you can sell.

Like many other folks who post to this website, I dearly want to know about the deliveries of these awesome cars to the people who have dug deep and have already bought and paid for their cars. GO TESLA GO!

Chesterbutton

6:09pm | Apr 10, 2008

All of this Tesla stuff dazzles me to the point that I wish for one. HOWEVER The price undazzles me, and I would have to wait for the price to come down. Too bad we couldn't revive Henry Ford. He knew how to build cheap cars!

mark w.

6:37pm | Apr 10, 2008

Along the way, you should also consider Mexico. I know that US cars get sold there with no problem (I live in Arizona near the border). Mexico City would be where I would start, big city with some big economic gains.

Andrew Kelsey

5:16am | Apr 11, 2008

Like many others who have followed Tesla's progress for some time I'm delighted to see that you're going to make the car available in Europe. However, like many above I am annoyed that you're taking the opportunity to raise prices by about 50%. I know you have a huge investment to recoup and maybe your potential buyers can afford to help you do this but, even if I had the money, which I don't, it would really rankle to be paying so much more than American buyers. Grey import looks like being the way to go. There's so much to save that it will be worth taking the trouble. As RHD isn't available anyway, conversion to UK standards shouldn't be a major obstacle.

Peter Hedge queried whether the cars would really be crossing the Atlantic twice. I'm sure it would make much more sense to send the batteries to Lotus and I'd be really surprised if that isn't what you intend, but you have to sell some at the inflated price first!

David

7:08am | Apr 11, 2008

As a couple of people have said above, and as I have posted elsewhere, it's bad enough that the car is to be released at €99,000 (already a 60% increase on the US price) - but now we are told we have to add VAT to this as well?!?

Great - that means the Roadster will be just short of **double** the price of in the US. No wonder you are marketing it first in Monaco.

I'm with George on this - please elaborate on how this price increase is justified. I was rationalising the story in the FT by thinking the €99k already included higher European taxes, but now we learn VAT is on top. This seems difficult to justify for a car that is substantially built in Hethel at Lotus.

Can you say if the cars will also be crossing the Atlantic twice during their construction, or will the drive train be shipped to the UK for integration?

Also, concerning price I'm not sure what the fuss is about. All high-end sports cars are way more expensive in Europe...so what? If you compared the cost to purchase and register a high performance ICE roadster in both places, I think you'd find a similar disparity. Simply comparing the transatlantic prices doesn't really mean anything, and certainly isn't (and shouldn't be) the basis for Tesla's pricing choices. Their pricing is based on competing in each market effectively. Viewed from this perspective, it looks like the Roadster is very competitively priced in Europe, particularly in those countries with large tax benefits for EVs. Put another way, consider what cars you could get in the US (including taxes) for the price-after-taxes of the Roadster...and then consider the same question in a European country. Note that if Jacob's numbers for Denmark taxes are right then a normal ICE car that costs €50,000 will cost €128,750 after tax, probably in the ballpark of the Roadster's after-tax price. So it sounds to me like the Roadster is a lot more attractive relative to the competition there than here. That doesn't even begin to consider the difference in ICE operating costs in the two markets. Also note that the price of the US Roadster will be higher for 2009 as well.

On the other hand, the few people who have mentioned grey market importing may be on to something. What are the costs associated with that? Does one have to pay duty of some kind, and how much? Of course the shipping has its own costs as well. Considering the big price disparities in other cars, you'd think we would have heard of this going on a lot if it didn't cost much to do. I'm guessing it won't be a big issue, but I don't know much about it.

Paul

11:53am | Apr 11, 2008

Absolutely great initiative to have a look at Europe! On average, distances driven here are shorter thus an electric car will make even more sense than in the US. Indeed focus on emissions and fuel economy is more intense over here than ever and will continue. Please note that taxes (often several on top and progressive) are much higher than in the US, making the pricing excl. VAT of the mentioned level looking pretty fearsome. Nevertheless, the electric automotive age has to start at some point and the sooner the better!!!

Rich: I'm assuming the lack of a response likely means the answer is yes, White Star production will be delayed, and they're not sure how much it will affect it yet. Just my opinion though, I have no proof to back it.

Pete

2:29pm | Apr 11, 2008

Dpes anyone else find it strange that they announced production start and a month later have not produced a single vehicle? Was the press release premature or are there other unknown problems on the assembly line? My understanding was they would be doing at least 1 a week at the start and ramp up from there.

Rich & Eric: The Roadster took what, about 6 years to bring from concept to production. The WhiteStar is even more ambitious because the Roadster uses as many Lotus parts as possible and the WhiteStar is an all new undertaking. I would be surprised if their target date does't slip. But that said I don't believe that any issues with the Roadster should be the cause of any delay of the WhiteStar. Certainly not any decisions about marketing and even engineering is not likely. The solution to Tesla's transmission problems was to put the water-cooled motor in the Roadster that they had already designed for the WhiteStar. So this didn't slow down WhiteStar, but infact has necessitated speeding up this particular part to get it into production sooner than originally planned. Tesla has said they will have a blog on the WhiteStar soon, but right now they want to keep the interest on the product they have for sale now, not what is still at least two years in the future.

Mirko Dudas

10:44pm | Apr 11, 2008

After being critisized concerning the european Tesla pricing the ed. asked: "Have you looked at US prices for Porsches in comparison to Euro prices?". Yes, we did. The standard Porsche 911 Carrera is around 46 % more expensive in Germany than in the US. The Tesla will be 77% more expensive. Why don't you give them a call to ask them how they did it?

This is great news! I would recommend the Swiss market as a favorable european test market since Switzerland is a very rich country, and with four different official national languages (among them are Italian, French and German), it represents at least as many different european consumer mentalities in one small country. The Geneva auto show, an internationally renowend auto show taking place in the French speaking part of Switzerland, would be an ideal venue to introduce and promote the Tesla Roadster. The annual show takes place in March and attracts visitors from all over Europe.

Additional advantages of the Swiss test market are the low sales tax of only 7,6 % and the many tax exemptions for low emmission vehicles.

(Another interesting idea would be to present the Tesla Roadster at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology ETH in Zurich which is one of the world's leading technical universities.)

FAY

1:58am | Apr 12, 2008

Hi there! Great news that Tesla 's joining Europe. But to be Honest, it's not because the US Dollar rate is low that the price should be so high! Why do we have to pay a difference of 39000 euros (52000 Dollars) ???? I'm sure that customers we'll be glad like me but check your price again and add the VTA. See ya...

Tim Sutton, Switzerland

2:36am | Apr 12, 2008

A great decision Tesla, especially considering the dollar rates and how we are all screaming for the Tesla over here !!
Only 800 in the first year in the US??!! You will sell 5,000 in Europe, no problem at all.....
Price-wise now though, you have just locked horns with the bigboys in the highend performance roadster market....JAG XKR, 911, SLKAMG, V8VANTAGE....
However performance-wise, tax-wise, desireability-wise and Co2 emissions-wise, you have no competitors at all and so it's understandable to put on a premium price while you have a unique and premium product....I suppose we were all dreaming of a 70.000 Euro fully loaded price tag when we saw $105.000 in the USA...(OANDA.com - 12th April '08 USD$105,000 = 66,486.4 Euro)

Tesla would then also only be up against the BMW330, SLK, 350Z, S2000, BOXTER and S4 lot....

hang on a minute...wouldn't that mean that EVERYONE would buy a Tesla.... :o)

Tim Sutton, Switzerland

3:13am | Apr 12, 2008

P.S. Anyone want to buy a 350Z ?

Ian

5:05am | Apr 12, 2008

This may be a year too late for the UK market. The Lightening GT which is just about to launch looks a better spec on paper and with nansafe power source can recharge to full capacity in 10 minutes with 250 mile range and its right hand drive. Much as I like the Tesla its just been too long coming and other technologies are catching up very fast. With a 90000 price tag I'm heading for a Lightening.

G.V.

6:12am | Apr 12, 2008

I love you. I've been waiting for this news just SO damn long.
I don't know yet how to get my hands on the 100k, but I will.
You made my day!

Hugo

8:33am | Apr 12, 2008

GREAT NEWS - I'm Tesla fan from day one! I'm from Portugal and looking forward to place my order!! I want a test drive!

Hugo

8:35am | Apr 12, 2008

Please put price tag for Europe as US or under and you will wave huge quantity sales!!!

Bjørn Johansen

9:07am | Apr 12, 2008

Here in Norway, the only added tax is a refundable (when the car is condemned) of about $150.

I was hoping to get one, but the 60% rice on the price tag was way to stiff for me to handle. If you could have matched the US price, I'll guess you could have sold 3-500 cars a year here. Now I guess you'll do around 100.

Rudi

11:58am | Apr 12, 2008

99.0000 Euro in Europe, $ 98000 in the US. Why does Tesla charge a 50% premium to the Europeans? At the current exchange rate $98000 is 62.500 Euro, add 50% to this price and you get 99.000 Euro.
I'd order one right know, but only for an honest price, US price = Europe price.

James Anderson Merritt

12:01pm | Apr 12, 2008

# Ian wrote on April 12th, 2008 at 6:05 am

# The Lightening GT which is just about to launch looks
# a better spec on paper and with nansafe power source can
# recharge to full capacity in 10 minutes with 250 mile range

Is there anywhere online, where I can learn how this feat is accomplished -- especially whether early customers will be able to do it immediately, or how long they will have to wait before suitable fast-charge facilities are available?

Alexander

12:54pm | Apr 12, 2008

At the US price, I'd immediately order a Tesla for Switzerland although I'd use it in summer only. At 100k€ I'd rather add a little bit more and go for a beautiful old-fashioned 4-wheel drive 911 for all-year use. Have a look at your pricing, please!

Ian: The Lightning is nothing more than a Mustang with a new fiberglass skin. It is by no means in the same catagory as an exotic sports car. If i read their promo right that price is with the original Mustang engine, and the PML Flightlink electric version is much more expensive. Go buy your over-priced Mustang, it is no competition to Tesla. Lightnings are not production, they are a convesion done only after the order is received.

Hunter

4:08pm | Apr 12, 2008

Mirko Dudas, where are you getting that 77% figure? I asked google how much €99,000 was in dollars and got $156,647.70; even using the 2008 US price of $98,000 gives an increase of 59.8%, nowhere near your number. But of course comparing two different years' prices is grossly unfair. Using Tesla's estimated 2009 US price of $109,000 instead gives us a difference of 43.7%, which is just a hair lower than the Porsche price difference you cite.

So, like I said...everybody put the calculators down; nothing to see here.

Darryl Siry

9:32pm | Apr 12, 2008

Hmmm...seems like a lot of apples/oranges comparisons going on about the pricing of the special edition Roadster announcement. Maybe I'll do a blog on it. For now - here is the short version:

This is a special edition car for Europeans who want to be the first to own a very unique and exclusive car. The pricing is for the special edition of 250 cars for 2009. Pricing for the car when we do a full, higher volume run in Europe later on is not yet declared. So I think all comparisons are apples to oranges, but for those who still want to do the math and compare US and Euro pricing, you should consider the following:

99K Euro is for a fully loaded car, so don't compare it to US 98K Dollars, which is the 2008 US base price. Similarly, 99K Euro is for a 2009 car, not a 2008 car. We estimate the base price of the 2009 Tesla Roadster in the US to be 109K USD. Fully loaded with all factory options the 2009 Tesla Roadster will be closer to $120K USD. You might ask why the price of the Tesla Roadster is going up for 2009 and the reasons are similar to the reasons we are accelerating our European sales plans - the cost basis of our car is going up because much of it is in Euros and Pounds.

Pricing between US cars and European sports cars is not simply a matter of multiplying the exchange rate by the US price. A variety of factors affect pricing strategy between countries. The most relevant comparison is to use a benchmark that you can compare in each country. We often use the Porsche 911 Carrera S as a benchmark (that is not to say we try to match the the price, but it is a good point of comparison for a variety of reasons mostly related to the type of customer who purchases it)

If you are going to compare the Euro price including VAT, consider the sales tax and other taxes in the US. In California it is 8.5% and then you pay a vehicle licensing fee but I am not sure what that is off the top of my head. You also generally pay a gas guzzler tax for a high end sports car which obviously doesn't apply to the Roadster.

Finally, pricing a special edition car must take into account all of these things but ultimately it is a matter of supply and demand. The Roadster will always be an exclusive and relatively expensive proposition. We have plans for offering cars at lower price points and at higher volume levels but those cars won't be on the market for another few years yet.

milos

12:56am | Apr 13, 2008

re the lightning - sounds good at first - till you read about it .. it comes in more than one version, EITHER a fast one OR a long range one so you cannot get the 0-60 4 secs AND 200 miles plus range like you can with the tesla roadster- it's either or.

Peter J Hedge

6:56am | Apr 13, 2008

Re: It’s a start

Okay so maybe it won’t be a rival to the Roadster but I do believe my city’s decision to allow electric cars is a step in the right direction.

My only concern (apart from whether or not the URL link below will work) is that with a top speed of 40 kph (25 mph), they will create major congestion especially when the inevitable happens and some driver decides to take to the highway.

An interesting note is that the vehicles do not need to be “crash tested” or have air bags. For that reason alone I think I will wait a while before trading in my Volvo.

PS Thanks Darryl for the costing clarification. It's much better to have an explanation than trying to read beween the lines.

Hunter

1:46pm | Apr 13, 2008

Darryl, that's a great post; thanks for the details. I didn't realize the special edition was fully loaded. That makes for about a 30% price difference across the pond, which seems downright generous to me, even without considering the limited edition premium. Speaking of which, my only concern now is that 250 cars might be too few...seems like there should be tons of demand over there for this thing. Anyway, good luck!

BTW, where's that whitestar blog?

Andrew Kelsey

1:53am | Apr 14, 2008

Darryl, whichever way you slice it a higher price equals lower sales. If I were your marketing or sales department I would pay a lot of attention to the Norwegian guy writing above who was very interested at the US price but isn't going to be a customer at the 'special edition' price. I guess you're just using the 'special edition' to test the water and you'll set the real price according to the reaction you get. At current production rates you might as well price them at half a milion!

Talking of which, is there any news of the Founder's Edition car P2 that is due to be delivered to your founder?

Andrew - you have to look at volume relative to your production capacity and your gross margins. In the US we could probably sell 10,000 roadsters at $50,000 but we can't make that many and we would lose a bundle on every one. So the ultimate goal is not simply unit sales. As a startup you also have to look hard at fixed cost absorption since your overhead is very large relative to your sales at the early stages of growth. We are setting prices to build a healthy and successful business balancing all of these considerations. If you read my previous post, a fully loaded 2009 car in the US will be about $120,000. I don't think there will be a very large incentive for gray market imports. Regarding Martin's car, we'll let him now as soon as it's ready for delivery and he can let you know if he wants. We are taking great car with the early cars to ensure quality. - Darryl

Andrew Kelsey

2:08am | Apr 14, 2008

###Hunter said: On the other hand, the few people who have mentioned grey market importing may be on to something. What are the costs associated with that? Does one have to pay duty of some kind, and how much? Of course the shipping has its own costs as well. Considering the big price disparities in other cars, you’d think we would have heard of this going on a lot if it didn’t cost much to do. I’m guessing it won’t be a big issue, but I don’t know much about it.

I don't know the details either but it's obvious that the bigger the price disparity from the US to Europe the bigger the incentive is to do this. The grey importers, who are pretty professional and have been doing this for a long time with other cars, will see a large price disparity as a great opportunity to cash in. If Tesla are too greedy with their pricing they'll simply put somebody else in business buying the cars in the US and shipping them in. I don't see how Tesla could prevent this happening unless they think they can get their customers to sign an agreement not to sell the car on. Can't see that idea flying in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave!

Jens

2:55am | Apr 14, 2008

I am so glad to hear! The Roadster is my ideal car, and I knew that I wanted one, so much that I was investigating the possibility of doing private import from the US. I promised myself to never again spend any big money on a car with the antique combustion engine. I know where to spend it.. This is great news. /Jens, Sweden.

I tried to put myself on the 2009 list but Tesla cars will not yet be available in Europe for some time.
So, as I will be in San Francisco from June 15 till June 20, I would like to know if it is possible to visit your facilities at that occasion? Thank you.
Here in Flanders (Belgium) tax policy for cars is difficult to explain. Taxes will stay high because based upon horsepower.
Zero CO2 emmision though is a popular issue.

Keith Hearn

9:26am | Apr 14, 2008

Regarding grey market imports of Teslas, you might want to check the warranty. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Teslas sold in the US can only get warranty service in the US. While you could get a grey market ICE car repaired anywhere, where would you take a Tesla if something goes wrong, other than a Tesla service center? And as much as I'd like to believe that Teslas will be 100% reliable, realistically, they are a brand new technology and there are almost certain to be glitches. Do you want to have to ship your car back to the US to get a firmware upgrade to fix a bug that keeps your car from charging on even numbered Tuesdays?

Keith

James Anderson Merritt

10:06am | Apr 14, 2008

# milos wrote on April 13th, 2008 at 1:56 am

# re the lightning - sounds good at first - till you read about it .. it comes in more than one version,
# EITHER a fast one OR a long range one so you cannot get the 0-60 4 secs AND 200 miles plus
# range like you can with the tesla roadster- it’s either or.

Also, at the Lightning website, the company is pretty vague about how the "10 minute recharge" will be accomplished. The most prominent statement is that you can simply plug your Lightning into your home's "power point" to recharge, but they don't talk about how long this will take, and of course several of us have worked through the physics in these threads to show that the typical household electrical system will not support quick-charge at a rate that is commensurate with fully charging a sportscar with circa 200 mile autonomy from "empty" in as few as 10 minutes. The website also speaks of a more capable charging unit that some Lightning owners might wish to install, and that will become more commonplace "with the interest in electric powered vehicles increasing significantly." But again, any installation that would be suitable at a residence or small business for recharging quickly from mains would still be inadequate to the task of transferring energy at the 10-minute-per-recharge rate. This would mean adding 20+ miles of additional autonomy per minute, when the fastest commonly available chargers today may recharge at around 2 additional miles per minute. To charge must faster than 2 miles per minute -- not to mention 10x that rate! -- you need an "installation" on the order of a small power substation, as well as serious couplings, cabling, and personnel who are trained to deal safely with extremely high voltages and currents. The Lightning website gives no indication that a breakthrough has been achieved, which will enable Joe Citizen to "pump his own" at a 20-min per recharge rate anytime soon.

When something such as quick-charge, which is seemingly so important to the purchaser, is covered in so vague, even misleading a way in a company's official literature, that raises red flags for me. About which other aspects of the vehicle are they being not entirely forthcoming? The thing I have most appreciated about the Tesla site is that, for the most part, they have allowed and participated in fairly honest and transparent examinations of aspects of their vehicle and business operation that weren't always advantageous or flattering for them. I hope this openness continues.

JG

11:26am | Apr 14, 2008

It's a start! Even when I just see it as a kind of refinance of the exploding costs. Even Airbus got that problem nowadays. A worst case scenario with continuously falling US$ might just put the whole production to Europe. Cheers!

JG

11:36am | Apr 14, 2008

Sorry, maybe not a production move to Europe at all but instead a 7.5 million dollar fund raising for the development of further cars. 250 times 20.000 (which is roughly the difference of price in US and Europe) gives me around 5 million Euros, i.e. 7.5 million dollars. The next car's development should soon continue.

Hunter

7:07pm | Apr 14, 2008

Andrew Kelsey, you say "I don’t know the details either but it’s obvious that the bigger the price disparity from the US to Europe the bigger the incentive is to do this."

Sure, of course. But my point was that this is only true in a specific range of price differences...between infinity and the total cost of the importation. If the price difference between the two markets is small enough (or the costs/taxes on importing large enough), then the costs of importation will make the imports more expensive than the local offerings and there will be zero incentive to import. And we have to include everything in that calculation...not only the shipping and taxes, but also what the lack of warranty is worth, additional risk and the "trouble" involved to the buyer, and a fair-market profit for the importer. If all these costs together add up to ~$35,000 or more, there's no incentive for grey market Roadsters. If the cost is less than that, I agree, the lower it is the more grey-market Roadsters we should expect.

Obviously from Darryl's post this is a possibility that has already been considered at Tesla. Some folks act like they think Tesla never considered it when setting the pricing...

Hunter

7:28pm | Apr 14, 2008

Concerning the lightning, haven't you people seen vaporware EV's before? Boy, this thing sounds great! Fantastic specs, and for just £15.000 you can reserve one for 2009 delivery! Awesome!

...except that they've only built one mule. Which puts them where Tesla was say 2 years ago (minus a boatload of financing). 2009 delivery? I'd say 2012 if ever. Anybody want even odds on that?

OK, so great, the Lightning will be competition for Tesla in 2012. At three times the price. And not in an open-top car. But you can recharge it in...wait....errr...as fast as your electrical circuit can handle! Which in darn few situations is any faster than the Roadster. So...did I miss something, or does this thing not have anything at all on Tesla?

Show me a third-of-a-megawatt home hookup, and I'll consider 10-minute charging realistic.

I really wish you held some sentimental Value to putting a "Tesla Plant" or Dealer/Service Center in Former Yugoslavia where it belongs; where Nikolas Tesla came from. It would be a very Cheap opportunity, as labor costs are extremely low, entry into the EU is inevitable, or has happened already, and, their economy should be offered some stimulus for using their most Famed inventor's name.

I love the car, and agree totally with your decision to come abroad. I will get you on the news here soon. Look for a Macedonian News agent contacting you soon!

I bet we can get the car price down to 65,000 Euros if you took My advice.

I bet we'd see a lot of cars for that price as well!

Think about it,

Marty Morawski
VP
JM i MM Consulting

Leon

1:41am | Apr 15, 2008

Interesting to read all these postings. I am living in Germany and well, its great to see that that there is finally a full electric vehicle with more performance than a hairdryer available, however like most people in Germany, I don't have that much cash lying around. Its a far cry from replacing existing technology, especially from price and availability point of view, but at least its a start, and now, if asked about my dream car, the Tesla roadster is now top of my list... now if I could only win the lotto!

A stationary bank of capacitors, flywheels or high-power batteries installed at home, there you go. Yes its going to cost extra.

Jason M. Hendler

4:43am | Apr 15, 2008

Ben Weiss,

Great find on the lawsuit between Tesla and Fisker. Considering that Fisker is partnered with Quantum Tech, a Tier 1 supplier to the automotive industry, and a leader in alternative fuel propulsion systems, I seriously doubt that Tesla could prove Fisker lifted anything new or unique from Tesla. It is sad when a company has to resort to litigation to compete in the marketplace. Bottom line is, Fisker has a vehicle with appeal to a much larger chunk of the marketplace, because they opted for adding a range extender long before Tesla did, and now Tesla is trying to play catch up.

Peter J Hedge

4:49am | Apr 15, 2008

Thanks Ben for that illuminating link. It answers a lot of whitestar-type questions

I know "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". . . but this is taking it a bit too far.

As you so aptly put it: "Yikes!"

Peter J Hedge
Victoria, BC

Kevin Harney

5:37am | Apr 15, 2008

Ben,

That is a real shame because I thought that the Karma was a really good looking car. I had hopes that the Whitestar would be similar and now those are dashed. Well hopefully it will be on to bigger and better things and I will like the new design. This explains the long silence on the Whitestar. Perhaps now that the mess is out in the open we will see more info on the Whitestar soon.

Hunter

7:18am | Apr 15, 2008

Jason, it seems like no matter what the story is you're always going to be around to whine and moan about it using completely false information.

So, let's see...when did Fisker opt for a range extender? You say it was "long before Tesla did" but I see nothing at all to support that; not only had Tesla announced its RE intentions prior to the Karma unveiling, but according to this suit it was after Fisker had done design work for Tesla on an RE vehicle. Which brings me to "Fisker has a vehicle with appeal to a much larger chunk of the marketplace." No, it doesn't. It has no vehicle at all. We haven't even seen a working prototype yet (last I heard they expected to have the first running version in late 2008...so I guess they are planning to go from mule to production in just one year?), and they just got their first serious round of funding 3 months ago. And even if they did have, it's supposed to be $80,000 for a car with specs that sound a lot like Whitestar...how does that appeal to more of the market? Even if it comes out on time, it will be after Whitestar's details and price are out and a waiting list is up; how many folks do you think are going to want to spend 50% more for the first effort of a company with no EV experience just to get it a few months before Whitestar? Maybe they'll be lining up to get in on the solar-on-the-car-roof gimmick. Yeah.

But all that is just gearing up for the main whine of your post, this business of "It is sad when a company has to resort to litigation to compete in the marketplace." What a bunch of fish. I think it's sad when a company has to resort to piracy to produce a product. Sure, if Tesla was just some patent-pusher shop that never built anything, I could understand a bit of bemoaning their litigiousness. But they aren't; they're a real company with real products who paid a design firm nearly a million bucks to work on a car for them, and then watched that firm take the money and take the design back home to build a competing product. Apparently along with some parts of the design which they didn't even produce. You really think you wouldn't sue someone who took your million for contract work and then used the product of that work in competition with you? You think GM wouldn't be all over a firm that did this? Fisker is not "competing in the marketplace"...it's cheating in the marketplace. Which is what litigation is for.

That said, I do hope that a reasonable settlement can be made which includes the licensing of Tesla's IP; after all, two luxury plugins are better than one.

Mark Hanson

7:30am | Apr 15, 2008

Thank you Ben for posting that link.
It does answer a number of questions about the lack of updates about the White Star.
Shame we had to read about it in the press and there has been no mention here. I think it would have calmed a lot of people.
So after a month, is the second production vehicle done yet?? (please please, pretty please say yes;))

Hunter

7:31am | Apr 15, 2008

Kert, I didn't say "tell me how a third-of-a-megawatt home hookup could theoretically be built." I said, "show me [one]." Then we can start talking about how it costs half as much as the car and doesn't do anything worthwhile. After all, it's at your house...so you can charge up in 10 minutes if you're already home, but since you're back home it's very likely that you're going to be there for a few hours anyhow. Sure, maybe a few people go out on sales drives all morning, come home for lunch, and then head back out....but for the driving patterns of the other 99% of us, this doesn't help. It would help if these fast chargers were all over the place, but then you're back to needing the full wattage from the grid, unless you want to only offer one ten-minute charge every few hours. Which is hard to visualize in a gas-station setting. Of course it also wouldn't be economically viable (since more than 95% of people would be charging at home anyway) but that's a different story.

So, like I said, fast-charging isn't here. Show me a real, commercial (no, John Wayland's lead-acid dragster dump charger doesn't count either) effort at a complete fast charging system (cars and chargers) and I'll change my mind. Until then, companies like Lightning and Phoenix who claim these incredible recharge times are being very deceitful.

Jason M. Hendler

9:33am | Apr 15, 2008

Hunter,

First of all, Tesla has shipped only one vehicle, which was probably just a late prototype sent down the chute to see if it gets stuck. Given the 3 months since Tesla shipped anything, they are obviously re-re-re-redesigning the vehicle and waiting until all their inventory is perfect before starting their build. In short, P1 is Pfinal.

Fisker has partnered with a company that produces end to end alternative propulsion systems, and has been a Tier 1 supplier for years, so neither Fisker nor Quantum cares what Tesla is doing. Further, Fisker has already taken orders for "several hundred" Karma's, as Tesla hasn't offered pre-orders for a 4 door sedan with range extender.

Your time table is off, because I know Fisker was first to announce their range extended vehicle. Whitestar was ALWAYS going to be a 100% BEV until GM announced their E-REV, and Tesla was forced to offer a RE option.

Robert

10:38am | Apr 15, 2008

How many Roadsters are they making each since go live?

Andrew Kelsey

11:21am | Apr 15, 2008

Darryl, thanks for coming back on my post. I take your point on pricing and of course I want Tesla to succeed and be here for the long term, so I realise you have to make a profit and reward your investors. It's just that, at first glance, it seems like a whole lot more money for the same car. I'll stop trying to second guess you but, let's face it, these blogs are an invitation to do exactly that.

Very pleased to see you refer to Martin's car as 'Martin's car'. Of course he'll be the first to know when it's ready and I'm sure he'll spread the word in his own way.

Yuriy Pendalchuk

4:52am | Apr 16, 2008

Dear Mr. Siry, these are just great news that coincide with plans of our company to start cooperation with Tesla Motors in Europe. The first moment we learnt about the Tesla Roadster we wanted to go in for this. Like Tesla team we share your opinion that driving is exhilarating and driving an electric car gives thrilling sensations and much enjoyment to its owner, not a mere necessity of moving from point A to B. It was our old cherished dream to deal with premium quality car sales and now that Tesla has announced its plans to expand to Europe we feel even more enthusiastic about it. We hope our business experience and thorough knowledge of the market will be useful to your company. We are interested in cooperation with Tesla Motors and will be glad to start negotiations with you. Thanks and really very sincere congratulations!

Hunter

8:17am | Apr 16, 2008

Jason, sorry, but you simply saying "I know Fisker was first" isn't enough evidence for me. I went and looked for news and announcements on the Karma, and there isn't a single shred of anything before January of 2008. Not only was there plenty of rumbling from Tesla about an REEV Whitestar before then, but it's an undisputed fact that before that time Fisker had a contract with Tesla for design work on an REEV. So, let's see...Fisker was doing design work on Tesla's REEV before they came up with the Karma, but you still claim that you "know" that Fisker came up with the idea first. Where do you get this stuff?

Also, get off this magical Quantum Tech partnership. The fact they have a partner in no way precludes them from having taken valuable trade secrets from Tesla. We don't know what's in the car at all, and for you to assume (with no evidence whatsoever) that means everything is kosher is more than a bit foolish. Particularly when there's a suit claiming otherwise.

Furthermore, this all ignores the other, bigger part of the suit. You are focused only on the misappropriation of trade secrets...but Tesla is also alleging fraud and breach of contract. This is going to be an easier sell. What it basically boils down to is this: if you hire a subcontractor for design work and they take the money, that work is yours, not theirs. They don't get to turn around and produce a competing product with that design using your seed money. If they do, you get to sue them. There is nothing wrong with litigation when you have legitimately been wronged in business. And like I said, if you don't think GM would be hammering someone who did this to them, you are sorely mistaken.

Finally, let me respond to your now-perennial whine concerning the pace of production. Pfinal? Seriously? What, you think the cars Tesla says are in progress and will be delivered in a couple weeks are all a big hoax? This is absurd. Before production started you focused your moaning on "it'll never start," and now you say it hasn't "really" started because there's only been one delivery. I'm guessing once the deliveries start you'll be whining that it's not "real" until drivetrain 1.5, and when that happens you'll find some other excuse to say Tesla is all a bunch of liars and cheats. You're wrong, and unless you actually have something to back this crap up, it's just about libelous. Moreover, I thought it was just downright hilarious that you managed to spew all that venom about Tesla "producing one car" and then follow in the very next paragraph with blind praise for Fisker's operation, which hasn't even produced a single prototype but claims they'll be in full production next year. But I guess that's about par for you on this board...you're the "anyone but Tesla" poster.

Kevin Harney

10:54am | Apr 16, 2008

Maybe if you had not waited so long to unveil the Whitestar, Fisker could not have stolen it from you and unveiled it first :( Please tell me that the article was wrong in saying that Elon was re-designing it himself rather than a new professional designer.

Hunter

10:56am | Apr 16, 2008

Well, shoot. Sorry, my first search was apparently not too thorough. I have found the September announcement of the partnership with Quantum and the October "teaser" (read: CG) photos for the Karma. My bad. However, September is still 4 months after the story broke that Fisker was designing Whitestar. And at least one of the news stories about the suit says Tesla hired Fisker in 2006.

Hunter

12:52pm | Apr 16, 2008

Kevin, I couldn't agree more. I'm sure he's exaggerating, and there are real pros working on the design with him overseeing them...but still, the quote looks bad. And it's in the NYT, so there's going to be some folks reading it.

Martin changes his mind and decides that perhaps, now that GM and Fisker are pursuing range extended vehicles, then perhaps Tesla should too. It is not wishful thinking on my part, it is mere observation of various company's positions of vehicle platforms over the time that I've followed their efforts.

As for fraud / sabotage, Fisker couldn't make a sub-standard design if he tried. The Karma is very similar to old Jaguars and even older svelte racing vehicles from the 50's and 60's. If Fisker had to design a 100% BEV, it might well have been oddly proportioned, due to a large battery pack, but a hybrid vehicle has a lot more flexibility due to a small battery pack, small hp engine / generator.

Hansen

1:13pm | Apr 16, 2008

Just checked the prizetag of the cheapest Porsche Boxster in Denmark incl. VAT = just below 125.000 Euro. Since the VAT on the Tesla would be 25% that also costs just below 125.000 Euro. Now, if you drive approx. 20.000 km/year (12.500 miles), keeping the Boxster running incl. VAT sums up to 5.000 Euro. One Giga-Watt costs about 70 Euro in Denmark, it should be interesting to get the running costs calculated on the Tesla Darryl?
Oh, and the Boxster uses 6 sec. for the 0 to 60 mph.

Hansen

1:17pm | Apr 16, 2008

Shoot, found it myself. Costs for keeping the Tesla running for a year: 500-600 Euros. Thats when using 110 Wh/km

Hansen

1:34pm | Apr 16, 2008

Sorry, but I have to write this. I read somewhere on your website, that a gallon of gas costs about 3$. Just to compare gasprizes - in Denmark we pay roughly 8,5$ per gallon incl. VAT for unleaded 92 octane gasolin. No wonder why Tesla can see the economical benefits for an EV in Europe.

Thomas J.

5:01pm | Apr 16, 2008

Hansen,

Also consider what the price of a tune up is for a Porsche. Or a replacement clutch if you do a lot of those 6 second 0-60 runs. The Tesla has no sparkplugs, oil changes, clutches, air filters, etc. It will eventually need new batteries, and they won't be cheap, but that's a good ways down the road.

Hunter

7:04pm | Apr 16, 2008

Jason, somehow the articles you cite rarely say what you claim. Martin's early blog did not dismiss the Volt concept at all, but only noted that batteries will need massively higher cycle lives for REEV's to work. Also, neither of those articles mentions Fisker at all.

But this aspect of the discussion (who was first to say they intended to build an REEV) is actually totally irrelevant. After all, neither Fisker nor Tesla had IP related specifically to REEV technology. The design of the coachwork is mostly (if not completely...your suggestion that battery placement could have made the car oddly proportioned is utter hogwash, as the battery can go wherever they want) independent of the drivetrain characteristics. And the electric drivetrain is the same whether a car is a BEV or REEV. So really, any IP Fisker misappropriated would have been BEV technology (or data, let's not forget the value of the proprietary testing and concept validation Tesla performed) that also applies to an REEV. And if they were giving Tesla a hobbled version of the Karma design and saving the best work from Tesla's dime for themselves then that's bad faith regardless of what's under the hood of either vehicle...it's a contract for coachwork, not a whole car.

So, try to make the whole discussion about a murky timeline if you want, but that detail doesn't even matter to any of the material points of the case. Bottom line is that if Tesla has a Fisker Whitestar design that looks like a slightly uglier Karma and a contract that was even halfway thoughtfully written, there's a pretty solid cause of action there. If they can come up with specific (and helpful) proprietary information they gave Fisker they have another. Any documentation they could produce that showed their REEV plans predating the Karma would just be icing on the cake. From the sound of the filing, they intend to do all that...but of course they always promise the moon in these initial complaints. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

What is the current US 2008 production/delivery total expected to be? Still ~800? Will the EU sales eat into the 2009+ stock available in the US?

Peter Greis

10:16pm | Apr 16, 2008

Mr. Siry - I can appreciate that an over-the-pond operation will incur some startup costs, but +59% ? Just for reference - it cost me $2,500 to get my [used] Pathfinder from Boston to Zurich in 1999 (door to door). At these prices let me buy a Roadster in the US and arrange shipping myself.

Also, as a benchmark, diesel here is $7.44 a gallon. For ~100K USD I am interested; at 160K (plus 7.6% VAT) it's a bit steep. But please do let us know when you get to Switzerland.

regards

P

Jason M. Hendler

6:33am | Apr 17, 2008

Hunter,

It isn't the location of the batteries that differentiate a REEV and a BEV, it is the quantity / size / weight of the batteries that determines distribution. The REEV has 1/5 - 1/3 the batteries of a BEV, and therefore, that bulk is more easily stashed. In the Chevy Volt, the batteries are under the back seats and on the floor between the two back seats, which is why a 5th person can't sit between the two people in the back seat. In the Tesla Roadster, there is no back seat at all, as the giant battery pack fills in that entire volume. If Fisker had to locate a BEV's mass / volume of batteries throughout a sedan, you would end up with a very odd looking vehicle.

Thomas J.

6:50am | Apr 17, 2008

Peter, the thought of driving a Roadster through the Swiss Alps is highly intoxicating! I've been there on ski trips three times now, and hope to go back again when (if) the dollar regains some worth. You have a beautiful country! With a Tesla, you'll even be allowed to drive in Zermatt, where no gas burners are allowed. I bet those mountains will really klll the battery range though.

Hunter

9:08am | Apr 17, 2008

Jason, sorry, still hogwash. The engine, accessories and gas tank offer plenty of space for the additional batteries, and even if they didn't, the fact that it's thousands of cells makes the form factor nearly infinitely flexible...the whole floorboard could have an inch of batteries under it if necessary, and nobody would be the wiser.

Hunter

10:32am | Apr 17, 2008

Peter Greis, take a look at the comments above to see how your comparison isn't quite right. You are probably comparing the 2008 US base price to the 2009 fully-loaded (and special edition) EU price. If you compare the fully-loaded estimated 2009 US price, you'll see the difference is about 30%, not 60%. Still a significant increase, but with the currency rates the way they are few goods do keep parity across the Atlantic. In particular this difference is a lot less than that of many other sports cars.

Jason M. Hendler

5:09pm | Apr 17, 2008

Hunter,

Hogwash to you. You are forgetting the cooling management system that must surround each cell, so if you spread it out, then you have to have much more cooling fluid travelling through longer tracks of piping, etc. You would also have to have longer wires, etc. We are talking 3X to 5X more batteries with liquid cooling - you aren't going to conveniently, efficiently spread that all out without a penalty in weight and cost.

Darin Ladd

7:40pm | Apr 17, 2008

Jason--

Did you consider putting 1/2 the batteries in the back of the vehicle, then putting another 1/2 somewhere like the engine compartment in the front of the vehicle? I'd say that, although you might have two (separate) fluid reservoirs for coolant (same overall volume of coolant required, eh?), the overall weight would only increase by the weight of an additional pump. Yes, you would have to string a wire down the middle to connect the two . . . (or would you? How about all-wheel drive? For those of us in areas of the country where there is still snow on the ground, something like a 4 x 4 White Star could absolutely kill the Subaru market. I know, I know . . . this would require another engine in the front (another 100 lbs of weight or so), and probably other items I am unaware of . . . .

On another note, I think Hunter has a point. I thought the point of these Blogs was to toss out constructive (or wacky) ideas on a subject we all seem to care about. If one's only comments are always negative, and of a personal nature, it starts to detract from the conversation.

From now on, let's try to stay on topic, shall we?

Jason M. Hendler

6:13am | Apr 18, 2008

Darin Ladd,

Yes, I did consider the impact of spreading the weight of the vehicle to the very front and very back, as opposed to putting it in the middle of the vehicle, as in the Tesla Roadster. If you try to make a quick turn on wet pavement, your vehicle will spin round and round like a figure skater. Ever wonder why the EV designs you see have the tires at the extreme front edge and back edge of the vehicle? It is for that very reason.

Thomas J

9:29am | Apr 18, 2008

It is called the moment of inertia. The farther a mass is from the axis of rotation, the more work it takes to rotate the object. A vehicle with the mass centered, such as a mid-engine or mid-battery car, will rotate easier, and tend to oversteer, which may be tolerated somewhat in a sports car. Placing the mass of the batteries farther from the center will make the car understeer, which is a much more appropriate handling characteristic for a sedan than oversteer. I believe this is quite the opposite of what was previously described here.

The physics of autos is fascinating, but how does this all fit into selling electric Roadsters in Europe?

Thomas J: You got it backwards. You want lower rotational inertia for easier handeling, so mass should be in the center. Easier rotation is better, not worse. Oversteer and Understeer are mostly a function of weight distribution, at the front (understeer) or at the back (oversteer). Even a car with high rotational inertia by having mass at both ends can have neutral steering.

Well, I don't think placing the weight at both extremes will make a car "spin round and round like a figure skater". That sounds more likely to occur with the weight in the middle, even more so if it was concentrated in the rear. I still remember those early Corvairs. You could get really unstable with those, without trying to hard. Later they moved the engine up to just before the rear wheels, and it was much better, but by then too many people were convinced they were unsafe.

If I were designing a BEV sedan, I would be inclined to separate the ESS in two, with the fore being bigger than the aft unit. With the motor being relatively light, I would place it in the rear, near the driven wheels. It complicates things by having two ESS units, but it's too much weight to place at either end, and you can't really mount it in the middle like you can with a two-seater sports car. For the REEV version, I would then replace either the front or rear ESS with the ICE and generator. It depends on what sort of electric range you are going for. If it's minimal, then put the ICE in the front, otherwise, put it in the back.

There is always the possibliity of placing the batteries in the floor, and that might work for a car that doesn't have to carry too many batteries, like a hybrid, and that doesn't need an extensive battery cooling system. Even then, it could work well for an SUV type of vehicle, like the RAV4-EV.

Darin Ladd

10:54pm | Apr 18, 2008

Gentlemen--

Thank you; however, please note that I did not say "to the very front and very back," and do not think that notion lends charity to my post.

Perhaps I should clarify: place a battery pack in the front and another one in the back, but place both of them as near to the center of mass as possible. Say, like, in front of the firewall and behind/under the back seat. Obviously, this represents a compromise from the purest possible solution: a homogeneous sphere of batteries located exactly at the center of mass in all three axes; but how much can we compromise from perfection to make a vehicle look "right" and drive "right?" Clearly, a full engineering analysis is required before putting any vehicle on the road, and that analysis would include a test to see whether this weight distribution leads to any undesireable effects. I must remind everyone, however, that the comparison here is existing ICE vehicles that in some cases achieve perfect 50-50 weight distribution, but not by placing the combustion engine in the center of a car in the shape of a perfect sphere!

Again, the intended point of this comment was to address the assertion that a pure BEV sedan would have to look somehow "odd." I reject this notion on its face, and simply offer one of which must be numerous suggestions to counter that notion.

And why address the issue of whether or not our European friends (and family members) would want a pure BEV versus a hybrid of any sort? I am not qualified to comment (I speak only for myself in saying I do not wish to drive a hybrid of any sort on principle alone), but I suspect that some of our kind European Blog participants might want to weigh-in on the subject.

G.V.

2:11am | Apr 19, 2008

About the design of the Fisker Karma, I honestly think it sucks.

I do hope that the Whitestar doesn't look anything like that. For some strange reason, designers seem to think that 'Green' Vehicles do either have to look like boxes on wheels or as if they were taken out of some lame science-fiction-movie.

Although in my personal opinion, the design of the Tesla Roadster is not quite the cherry on the cake, it's still easily rocks away everything else on the EV / hybrid market, so I honestly hope that the Whitestar will follow the Roadsters footsteps.

Jason M. Hendler

10:06am | Apr 19, 2008

GV,

As a point of reference, name a vehicle that has the styling that you would want to see for the Whitestar.

Jason M. Hendler

12:05pm | Apr 19, 2008

Thomas J / Roy,

I think I see the disconnect. In abstract physics, a body whose mass is distributed far from the center of rotation would require more torque to spin it, than one whose mass is distributed near the center of rotation. For vehicle dynamics, if a car is traveling in a straight line, then suddenly tries to turn, the mass extending beyond the rear wheels creates a rotational moment (torque) on the vehicle that must be countered by the traction of the wheels, which are closer to the center of rotation - this is bad for vehicle handling / stability.

The Chevy Volt will have it's battery pack under the back seat and on the floor between the passengers. This allows vehicle designers to do whatever they need to make the vehicle aerodynamic, stable and stylish. Same with the Fisker. A 100% BEV, with a 200 mile battery pack with coolant, will have a much harder time achieving all three of these parameters.

Whatever the WS looks like, I'd sure like to hear something about when it's going to be built. There is going to need to be alot of effort to get a factory setup -regardless of the design. The plant in Albuquerque is so far one YEAR behind.
Any update on that - 2010, 2011, 2012...????

OzoneLevel

3:10am | Apr 20, 2008

#
Jason M. Hendler wrote on April 19th, 2008 at 11:06 am

GV,

As a point of reference, name a vehicle that has the styling that you would want to see for the Whitestar.

Easy, any BMW 5 series...

G.V.

2:27pm | Apr 20, 2008

"As a point of reference, name a vehicle that has the styling that you would want to see for the Whitestar."

This is a difficult question.

I could, for example, tell you that I liked the styling of the old Ford Focus hatchback (the first generation), but then again, this would be rather pointless since I have no clue about the rough specifications of the Whitestar chassis and thus which body would fit on it.

I mean, I am not even certain if I understand what Tesla - respectively the U.S. - comprehend when saying 'sedan'. I guess this term is only used for, well, 'larger' cars with regular trunks?

I actually have some limited experience in Industrial design, so I tend to be picky, especially if I am that much excited about a product like I am about the Whitestar.

Darin Ladd

10:54pm | Apr 20, 2008

I would like to see something like the 99 VW Passat (or the wagon, for that matter). It had a very "glassy" look on the top half of the car, and used more circular lines--a nice balance between fluid and angular. I was in Europe then and, amongst the well-to-do, that was a hot ticket item.

Regarding the Fisker vs. Volt vs. pure BEV: there may be a weight/balance trade-off that favors the hybrids over the short-term, but I would venture a guess that it would be in the region of indifference for many consumers--especially considering the HUGE implications. What would you rather drive: a vehicle with very few moving parts, or one with basically two engines? It seems like there is a groundswell of support for hybrids, but I am not sure I could convince myself to make that compromise.

Kevin Harney

5:26am | Apr 21, 2008

GV,

In the US, and I think around the rest of the world, a Sedan is a 4 door car that has door pilars between the doors. It has nothing to do with size or trunk space. You can have a large sedan or a small sporty one. And it can have a large trunk or a very small one. If it is a 4 door or a 2 door with no pilars it is called a coupe. Typically a coupe will have 2 doors but can have 4.

Jason M. Hendler

5:27am | Apr 21, 2008

GV,

OK, so you think the Fisker Karma is ugly, but would hope to see the Ford Focus body on the Whitestar instead ....

G.V.

10:44am | Apr 21, 2008

"In the US, and I think around the rest of the world, a Sedan is a 4 door car that has door pilars between the doors. It has nothing to do with size or trunk space."

I see. It is probably excactly what we call a 'limousine' here, then.

"OK, so you think the Fisker Karma is ugly, but would hope to see the Ford Focus body on the Whitestar instead …."

So where exactly did I write that?

Well, perhaps I'll do some scribbles for a quick reference what styling I would imagine. I would definately keep the design close to the Roadster.

G.V.

12:15pm | Apr 21, 2008

Here it is. Don't expect anything professional though, since I was just made a short sketch of what came to my mind. Besides that, things like mass distribution or room requirements for the battery weren't considered.
In the light of the lawsuit, I took the size and shape of the Fisker Karma as a rough base model.
'http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whitescribldc9.jpg
'
Because of the poor quality of the sketch, the dimensions are of course not apparent. I would reduce the size of the front part of the car while making the trunk part a little longer in comparison to the Karma.
I would use a modified, broader, less sporty-agressive looking variant of the Roadster trunk for the Whitestar, removing the small spoiler, as seen in the picture.
I couldn't come up with a new headlight design, so I just drew those of the Roadster. I would, however, definately use another design for the Whitestar (I'm just too lazy to come up with one right now), to make the car more different from the other. The engine hood should roughly resemble to perhaps a new BMW, although with a slight gradient, and a smooth transition to the rather flat front window.
Although solar panels on the roof are pretty cool, we've all heard that the money is better spent in 'regular' ones on housetops; so I would integrate a large 'panorama' front window instead.

Hunter

6:15pm | Apr 21, 2008

Wow, GV, way to ante up in the face of harassment and put your pen where your mouth is! I have to say I think it's pretty good. I agree that the headlights need redone, and I would make the windows taller (which is to say doorsills lower) the nose shorter and move the wheels farther to the corners, but I like the general look. I wonder about hatchbacks...they don't seem to be prevalent in the market WS seems pointed at, but I don't know why. Never had one myself...you sure seem keen on them, why? I am totally into what you're saying on the panorama windshield...cars with great visibility really have a better driving experience. Ask anybody who drives a convertible...the difference with the top up/down is usually night and day.

(I do have to give quick props to Jason for the Focus jab; I laughed out loud, and that *was* what it sounded like you were saying.)

Robert;
I understood your German, but won't attempt to answer that way.

The first EU Roadsters are special, with everything.

Regular Roadsters will be less, probably about US price + 20% (my guess).

Keith Hearn

6:58pm | Apr 21, 2008

G.V.,

Nice sketch. I like it. Might be a little cramped for headroom in the back seat, but that seems to be par for the course now days. I'm sure some details could be improved, but for a rough draft, it's got good lines. Good job.

Keith

Kevin Harney

7:28pm | Apr 21, 2008

GV,

I have to say that is a pretty good sketch. And if that is a Limosine there then yes a sedan here is a limosine there. Here in the US a Limosine is a much longer car that usually seats 6-10 + people. Length is usually about 15-30 feet or 5-10 meters as you say over there :) Usually used for special occassions like weddings, large business meetings, formal dances and large parties. Funny how the same cars have different names throughout the world.

Kevin Harney

7:31pm | Apr 21, 2008

GV,

It just occurred to me that what you drew looks like a Nissan Maxima here in the US.

Darin Ladd

8:00pm | Apr 21, 2008

GV--

Not bad!!! Not what I had in mind originally--then again, I can't draw.

I agree with Hunter, the hatchback makes it stand out. Though I did not like the first version, the redesigned BMW 6 might serve as a model for comparison.

I think we think of a sedan as a little larger than what you have drawn but close. That is what we would call a sedan but a small one. Typical foriegn cars that we think of as a sedan are like the BMW 545 or 745, Mercedes 500S, or Audi A6 or A8. What I would really like to see the Whitestar look like is a hardtop convertible. I am thinking a cross between the BMW 545 a VW Eos and a Fisker Karma. Can you sketch something like that out !?!?!?!

James Anderson Merritt

9:08pm | Apr 21, 2008

Nice sketch, GV. I would seriously consider driving an EV that looked like your picture.

So Tesla - can you come up with anything better that GV did ?!?!?!?! Let's see it :)

Kevin Harney

5:34am | Apr 22, 2008

Are we ever going to see a P2 ? It has been "in production" for over a month now. Do you have an expected completion date ? How quickly will the ramp up to P3 begin ? Are you actually working on more than 1 car at a time yet ? PLEASE post something we are all looking forward to the good news :)

G.V.

5:45am | Apr 22, 2008

Whew, I'm surprised about all that positive feedback. Thank you, everyone.
I don't want my rather harsh words about the Karma to be misunderstood (perhaps I was also biased against the car company because I read of that design-stealing-stuff just before I posted my message :) ), but this car reminds me a bit of haute couture: it's kinda cool when you look at it, but you wouldn't want your wife to wear it. At least, that's my impression... it's a bit too 'spacy' for my taste.

_________

"I agree that the headlights need redone, and I would make the windows taller (which is to say doorsills lower) the nose shorter and move the wheels farther to the corners"

I agree, I also don't like long 'noses' with cars, but as I said, I took the Karma as 'blueprint', which has a pretty long one. Heh, jokes about stealing Tesla's design and the long noses of wooden dolls come to my mind.

"I wonder about hatchbacks…they don’t seem to be prevalent in the market WS seems pointed at, but I don’t know why. Never had one myself…you sure seem keen on them, why?"

I don't really know, but I guess that it's safe to say that for some reason Europeans prefer more 'compact' cars; and even tough the difference between 'normal' and hatchback cars isn't too big, the visual effect is that hatchbacks look much smaller.

"And if that is a Limosine there then yes a sedan here is a limosine there. Here in the US a Limosine is a much longer car that usually seats 6-10 + people."

Yep, I know these cars, although they are a pretty rare sight where I live. Unfortunately, like in this case, the German language is partially pretty retarded, using the same term for multiple things.

"I am thinking a cross between the BMW 545 a VW Eos and a Fisker Karma. Can you sketch something like that out !?!?!?!"

I fear I can't make a sketch on that base, but perhaps I can give it a try if you give me a closer explanation how you would want to mix up the different styles.

Kevin Harney

7:02am | Apr 22, 2008

Sure GV. TM doesnt seem to be suppling us with any art work so why not you !!! You seem pretty good at it :) I am thinking the size of a BMW 545 with a convertible hardtop like the VW Eos and a little bit of extraodiinary styling from the Karma but not over the top like the Karma is but more in line with what you drew based off the Roadster. LOL does that make it clear as mud hehehehehe. Also I liked all of Hunters changes except I am not really keen on the hatchback idea. Not opposed to it just not my favorite thing. Maybe the lines of a hatchback but not actually being one. Kinda like a Lexus sedan. How is that for a starting point ?

Jason M. Hendler

7:18am | Apr 22, 2008

GV,

How did you edit your post to remove the Ford Focus statement, as Hunter and I both recall it being there? No matter, as I now understand your tastes and see why the Fisker Karma is not for you. I personally love most everything Fisker has designed, and consider him the best car designer ever. He seems to get the form of the most classic / iconic vehicles every built - the old Jaguars and the gull-wing Mercedes - outstanding. For me, Maserati and Lamborghini took a wrong turn, looking more like stealth fighters instead of vehicles. Too bad they didn't go the way of the Saline SR7:

It's curvey design has 40% less drag than other vehicles against which it races, while creating a greater than 1G downforce on the vehicle - absolutely amazing.

Your sketch is good, nothing like the Ford Focus - I like long hoods and "panoramic windshields". Perhaps your headlights can be the enclosed triple spotlight approach many automakers are moving towards.

Nubo

8:56am | Apr 22, 2008

Given that we're in the lull between P1 and P2, this blog about selling cars in Europe is getting rather stale. High time for some news regarding actual production status. I hope Europe gets all the roadsters they can, but I can't wait to see an "ordinary" customer get their keys.

G.V.

9:47am | Apr 22, 2008

"How did you edit your post to remove the Ford Focus statement, as Hunter and I both recall it being there?"
Um, I didn't edit anything. The only statement I made about a Focus, that I "liked the styling", is still there. I haven't written anything besides that.

"He seems to get the form of the most classic / iconic vehicles every built - the old Jaguars and the gull-wing Mercedes - outstanding. For me, Maserati and Lamborghini took a wrong turn, looking more like stealth fighters instead of vehicles. Too bad they didn’t go the way of the Saline SR7:"
Ah, I see.
You're right, our tastes are probably pretty contrary. I, for example, like the new Lamborghini designs of cars such as the Gallardo or the Murcielago very much, because I prefer clear, sharp and strong lines. This is pretty much the exact opposite of the curvy design of the Karma, respectively many classic vehicles.

Kevin,
I guess that I could try a sketch with that. Unfortunately, I'm pretty busy right now, but I'll see if I can come up with something when I have some freetime on my hands (or the next time I need an excuse for not working :) )

I am not sure if all you guys folow oil closely but, things are getting REALLY ugly!!!! Two more pipelines were sabotaged in Nigeria along with the attack on the Japanese oil tanker & they are now hinting at possible $5 a gallon gas. NOW is the time that these cars NEED to be hitting the roads & getting major publicity to show people that our current situation is NOT hopeless & there IS a way out of this mess.
Soooo, I have tried to be patient but,

WHERE IS P2???????? It's been a month!!!!!

Jason M. Hendler

11:52am | Apr 22, 2008

GV,

Too true, checked out photos of the Gallardo and Murcielago, and find them completely formless - no curves, no louvres, nothing. The Saline SR7 has better 0-60 and 1/4 mile times without sacrificing the curves and achieving higher downforce numbers. That's why Saline is owning LaMans.

I would like to see what Tesla can achieve in a range extender design, being more flexible in component placement. They have the Roadster covering the optimal 100% BEV design, so they should go for a serial hybrid sedan.

James Anderson Merritt

1:01pm | Apr 22, 2008

Isn't "sedan" in the US the same as "saloon" elsewhere? Here in the States, of course, "saloon" conjures images of places you shouldn't be and things you shouldn't do before getting in the car to drive home...

It's odd. Fisker is a body shop with a reputation, but some of the plans and quotes sound almost as if they were coming from ZAP, especially the deal about putting speakers on the outside of the Karma to broadcast synthesized engine sound. The reputation and show-floor model of the Karma makes Fisker seem serious, but those other comments make them seem facetious, or at least not completely "plugged in" to reality.

It reminds me of the early days of personal computers, when even the "reputable" players engaged in shameless hype and weren't above taking orders for vaporware and snake oil.

Is Tesla's lawsuit an implicit declaration that Whitestar will be delayed on account of Fisker's alleged chicanery?

On the other hand, if Whitestar is delayed too long, it may be possible to fit it with better batteries or even the long-rumored eestor ultracapacitor energy pack, so as to allow for pure BEV operation. I'm not very interested in buying another gasoline car, to be frank, even if it only uses that fuel intermittently or on long trips.

Peter Greis

9:54pm | Apr 22, 2008

OK - I will accept the counter arguments to my first statement. Then let me rephrase - when can order a "not fully loaded" Roadster in Europe ? (Perhaps waiting would be better - the dollar might be even cheaper....)

Hunter

6:36am | Apr 23, 2008

James Merrit, I agree completely; Fisker is claiming some really gimmicky stuff that doesn't inspire confidence. The one that gets me is the solar roof...we've talked round and round that possibility here, and any way you slice it on-car panels just don't produce enough energy to matter. Anyone serious in this industry would already know that, so either Fisker has no clue what they are doing or they're just saying this as a marketing gimmick. Either way adding such useless expense is bad for customers and bad for EV penetration. Same for the external speakers.

I also noted this gem in the article: "The four-seater can travel 50 miles on a single battery charge. When the battery empties, the car automatically activates a one-gallon fuel engine that generates enough electricity to power the car a further 450 miles." Huh? What is "a one-gallon fuel engine" anyway? Surely that's not the displacement...that'd be one heck of a big powerplant for this application. And it can't be the tank capacity, unless either the 450 mile range is bogus or the energy content of gasoline dramatically increased last night while I slept. So, what gives?

In short, the more I read about the Karma, the less real it seems. I'm beginning to be a bit surprised Tesla bothered to sue them.

G.V.

6:42am | Apr 23, 2008

Well, I've taken myself some time I basically don't have and gave it a try.
It is a more serious attempt for a concept, since I spent a little more time to come op with a different design, so the car wouldn't look just like a bloated roadster, but still resemble to the roadster's styling.
_____________
As requested by Kevin, I came up with a car with hardtop. I don't know if I it looks Karma-esque, but given that I don't like the Karma's styling, I probably failed with that :)
_____________http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7902/whitescribjk1.jpg

_____________

I tried to come up with a stylish, yet not too extravagant exterior design. I don't know which price range the Whitestar is aimed at, however I had in mind a car which looks expensive yet still affordable... like a fully loaded BMW with a strong engine, for example.

I used taillights which resemble close to those of the roadster, since I think that the taillights and the whole trunk area are the most characteristic thing about Tesla's car.
I am not happy about the way the engine hood looks, I actually had in mind some soft curves, while it looks pretty wavy on the picture. I guess next time I'll have to make a clay model, lol.
I haven't spent too much time thinking about the front lights, since I feel it's difficult to come up with something fitting when you actually don't know the exact angle of the front, so I just picked the first idea I had. I believe that I've seen a similar design on some cars on the road, but I can't tell for sure - I really haven't been too interested about car designs in the past.
_____________

For those of you who like it coloured, I added a (very) sloppy paintjob.
The result can be seen here:

Two questions:
1) Will you after -sale service/pick-up cars for service for cars running in Norway
2) Will you service cars imported from the US in the same way (as cars sold directly in Europe/Norway)?

Kevin Harney

7:57am | Apr 23, 2008

Thanks GV. You da best !!! I am blocked from those images here @ work but I look forward to getting home to see them.

Kevin Harney

8:03am | Apr 23, 2008

Hunter,

That begs the question if that "one Gallon" can deliver a "enough power to travel 450 miles" then why not put a 5 gallon tank on the same car and travel all day !!!!! How totally bogus is that !!!! UNBELIEVABLE LOL Obviously absolutely no basis in reality and people are actually putting deposits on those cars !?!?!?!? I guess a sucker IS born every minute :)

G.V.

8:58am | Apr 23, 2008

"The one that gets me is the solar roof [...] Anyone serious in this industry would already know that, so either Fisker has no clue what they are doing or they’re just saying this as a marketing gimmick."

I think it's the latter. Besides the fact that solar panels on a cartop don't pay off, many people like the idea. Heck, even I do.
It's an easy marketing strategy to simply give the customers what they want, no matter how stupid it may seem. I mean, I guess we all know those people driving fast cars with max speeds twice as high as they will ever dare to drive, the people who believe they need full-fledged off-roaders even though they would never drive even on dirt roads, and so on.

Regarding the articles that I've read about the Fisker Karma - someone, perhaps Henrich himself, made the mistake of describing a scenario in which an operator of a serial hybrid would only have to buy one gallon of fuel in an entire year. It was a terrible gaffe - while such a scenario exists, it is more likely that a user would either use no fuel at all, or a few tank-fulls for long trips. Regardless, every journalist who has read his scenario has completely misinterpreted it, which has led to such blatantly false statements as "one gallon fuel engine".

Max

10:08am | Apr 23, 2008

Congratulations on the European expansion!

I'm looking forward to Tesla being a global brand. My dad will be very exited about hearing the news of being able to buy a Tesla Roadster in Europe.

It's amazing. Not only has Detroit got the motivation to develop and manufacture the Volt from Tesla Motors, now also Detroit follows Tesla Motors on his move to the european market. I'm glad, that I will see more american quality products around here in europe, thanks to Tesla Motors!

Felix

Kevin Harney

1:32pm | Apr 23, 2008

still waiting on P2 and news on the Whitestar :)

Kevin Harney

1:44pm | Apr 23, 2008

GV,

Those drawings are the best Whitesatr we have seen yet..... OH wait it is the ONLY Whitestar we have seen yet !!!! Seriously - good drawings and lots of quality time spent on them - thanks :) You are missing the 2 back doors LOL to make it a sedan :) But I like the way you did the tail lights to blend well with the Raodster. I like to hood lines and the rounded tail/ trunk lines. Love the license plate and especially keen on the fabulous paint job LOL :)

Hunter

2:08pm | Apr 23, 2008

G.V., there's a comment on that story claiming that the "generating fan" thing was a mistake and that the fan was actually part of the air conditioning system. I sure hope so...while "designers aren't engineers" I would certainly hope that a company of Mitsubishi's size would at least have an engineer or two *look* at the concept cars before they put them on display. Anyway, yeah, they're using the solartop gimmick as well, but I think it's a hair more forgivable in a concept with no production intent. There have been a long line of MiEVs, and I don't think the one they are planning on actually shipping has PV on board. I don't mind dumb showoff features at the auto show, but I'd rather not see them in places where they could actually impact my wallet.

That "one gallon of gas" thing has me thinking. Normally every season when I start mowing the lawn again I have to replace the gas in the tank to get my mower to run. I wonder whether gas going bad might become a serious issue for plug-in hybrid drivers with regular short daily drives. It also seems like there are other things about the ICE that might prefer not to have the engine sit without running for long periods. Anyone have ideas about this? Think the ICE will fire up for a few minutes every month or two even if it's not needed? That still doesn't handle the bad gas thing...even with fuel stabilizer you can't go forever. Are there any strategies to deal with that?

Hey Tesla, how about a new blog? Surely something's going on over there...

G.V.

12:45am | Apr 24, 2008

"You are missing the 2 back doors LOL to make it a sedan :)"

Really? Sigh, I guess 'limousine' and 'sedan' don't describe the exact same design, then... since what we call limousine might as well have only 2 doors...

__________

"G.V., there’s a comment on that story claiming that the “generating fan” thing was a mistake and that the fan was actually part of the air conditioning system."

I see what you mean, I've read this comment too, now.
However, every press release about this car I've seen mentioned the fan thing as a energy generating source...

Kevin Harney

8:02am | Apr 24, 2008

GV,

In your defense a sedan has door pilars and a hardtop convertible would not have door pilars so technically it would be a 4 door coupe :) I love the drawings none the less a I can see 4 doors on mine :) LOL Thanks for taking the time to draw that out !! You da best .

The NASA Launch Services contracts are multiple awards to multiple launch service providers. Twice per year, there is an opportunity for existing and emerging domestic launch service providers to submit proposals if their vehicles meet the minimum contract requirements.

The contract is an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract where NASA may order launch services through June 30, 2010, for launches to occur through December 2012. Under the NASA Launch Services IDIQ contracts, the potential total contract value is between $20,000 and $1 billion, depending on the number of missions awarded.

The contract seeks a launch capability for payloads weighing 551 pounds or heavier into a circular orbit of 124 miles at an orbital inclination of 28.5 degrees. Payloads would be launched to support three NASA mission directorates: Science, Space Operations and Exploration Systems.

Because an IDIQ contract has been awarded to SpaceX, it can compete for NASA missions using the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 launch vehicles as specified by the NASA Launch Services contract process.

NASA's Launch Services Program at Kennedy Space Center is responsible for program management. This award to SpaceX adds to the stable of launch vehicles available to NASA under previously awarded contracts. The original request for proposal was issued in 1999.

---

Receiving the NASA Launch Services contract for the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 is a significant endorsement of SpaceX's products and of our plans for the future. In addition to the fourteen missions we've sold thus far, gaining NLS approval constitutes further validation of SpaceX's technology, and opens the doors for the wide variety of NASA spacecraft to fly aboard our launch vehicles. We look forward to working with NASA to send their payloads to Earth orbit, Geostationary orbit, the Moon, Mars and beyond.

--Elon--

RonalD Q

7:30pm | Apr 24, 2008

I am waiting on P2!!!

CM

10:39pm | Apr 24, 2008

I liked the drawings by G.V., buth there are several different ways Tesla might go for the Wihtestar project. They might draw inspiration from the flowing concepts Mazda has been showing, or use a short nose design similar to the Honda FCX Clarity or Toyota Prius. They might even go all out to reduce drag, and end up with something like a streched 4 dor version of the EV1, or even a 4 wheel version of the Aptera!

There has been some concern about fuel going bad in a plug-in hybrid. There are 3 things that make gasoline go bad:
1. Evaporation of the lighter components, leaving the heavier "stickier" portions behind.
2. Contamination by moisture or dust.
3. Slow oxidation.
Toyota solved all 3 problems in the Prius by using a flexible "bladder" in the fuel tank to keep outside air from reaching the fuel, and blocking evaporation of the fuel A similar technique should work for PHEVs, even if the gas engine isn't used for months or even years.

Jim Mapes

1:53am | Apr 25, 2008

Seems the debate has turned to what Whitestar might look like. Realistically when I think of a 5 passenger sports sedan - Camaro, Mustang, Challenger & Barracuda come to mind along with a few others. Taking some body concepts into account to fit form to function, the fastback design of the early 70's Mustangs puts some more cubic space inside perhaps for more battery capacity. Seems range on the larger heavier car will be an issue. A coupel hundred pounds more ESS might improve the figure somewhat. Though I've also noted the steadily climbing estimated price also which started @ $50k and is now approaching @ $80k. The price may set the vehicle out of the market niche it really needs to be in ($40-60k). Any higher than that and it probalby still in the exotic class.

mark

3:18am | Apr 25, 2008

I thought that there was a Japanese car out a decade ago with a small solar panel on the roof that ran a cabin vent fan on hot sunny days to help keep the cabin of the car from baking. It was around the time when keypad locks on the door were on some cars. Neither idea seems to have gained much traction.

Thanks for the post. No one has told us that the pipeline for a production car is 6 weeks. That was the information that I have been looking for all along. Along with now that the pipeline has "started" at what rate do cars flow through. Do they start a new one every day or every hour or every week ?!?!?!?! I am sure that TM does not want to over promise and under deliver and if that is the case then I would hope that they could at least WAY under promise and give us a time frame that would be reasonable. That is all I want.

Jim,

You said :

Realistically when I think of a 5 passenger sports sedan - Camaro, Mustang, Challenger & Barracuda come to mind along with a few others

These are not the cars I think of at all. First of all most of them are not sedans. Most are 2 door coupes. I am thinking more in the lines of BMW 535 or 545 and a Mercedes 320 or 500. A luxury sedan. Not an old muscle coupe.

Kevin Harney

8:14am | Apr 25, 2008

Mark,

They make little solar fans now that you roll up in the window. No need for a huge solar roof any more for that.

Kevin Harney

8:19am | Apr 25, 2008

Brian,

Besides the fact that we have not gotten that information, Monday the 28th is 6 weeks so I am not being all that unreasonable am I ?!?!?!?!?! 2-3 days early.

Scott Davis

12:57pm | Apr 25, 2008

what if a wind turbine was atached to this car to recharge the batteries while it ran?

Mark Hanson

1:21pm | Apr 25, 2008

The added energy provided to the batteries would be less than the additional energy required to overcome the additional air drag.

Pete

2:37pm | Apr 25, 2008

To add to that even in cases where energy was not used (going down hills) the regenerative braking system is much more efficient at converting that energy into electricty.

About the only useful case for a car mounted turbine for generation would be if you regularly parked in a very windy area but for small scale generation you are better off with a solar panel roof like the aptera. I suspect when thin film providers mature this will become more economical and much more common. The main energy savings of such systems are to reduce interior temps while parked close to ambient so the HVAC needs are correspondingly decreased when the car is started. I mean you are saving much more energy than the amount of enerfy it takes to run a low voltage exhaust fan.

Jason M. Hendler

4:09pm | Apr 25, 2008

If they didn't have several pics, I wouldn't have believed it - a motor unicycle:

Siry: Your Monaco ad quotes C&D about fastest 30 to 70 mph time. Do Tesla a favor and delete that. That C&D test is unrealistic and meaningless and you will only have to explain to everyone how the "fastest" gets beaten by dozens of cars. If you over hype a product, people are only dissapointed when they find out the facts.

pxtol

8:25pm | Apr 26, 2008

Does anyone know if the transmission problem is even close to being fixed yet? If not then perhaps Tesla should lower the bar a little. I don't think people will mind. I just want the car to be mass produced, even if it can't give you 0-60mph in 4 seconds. Anybody else have any thoughts?

Sindre Berg

8:12am | Apr 27, 2008

pxtol: The transmission problem is fixed, as in they know what they need to do. They will use the Whitestar solution and a beefed up PEM module to get enough performance without an actual transmission. Just a "direct" connection from the engine to the wheels. The problem is with implementing better cooling on the engine, swapping out parts of the PEM and such on a design that was supposedly locked down, the Roadster design. I beleive anything less than 4 secs accel to 100 means they move down from supercar to fast sportscar and that creates a whole new set of problems. This is the Halo car which needs to be fast as well as just a fast sportscar they are priced too high. For $70-80 000 they could probably drop the accel a bit but not when they are pushing $100 000, at least not in the US, and especially not after they've announced the better specs.

Looks like I originally saw an article on the second prototype. Lots of things are interesting here...particularly the things that separate this from the e-unis I linked to. I think most notable is the second gyro, which seems to manipulate the suspension during turning (which I guess is only possible when you have two wheels to work with) and I suppose must make it easier to ride since you don't have to adjust your forward/back position to turn. Also neat that he flew down to CA to visit Trevor Blackwell for help on the programming. Looks like two gyros is a lot trickier.

Sindre: Just being pickey, Direct connection from motor to differential. Not directly to the wheels. I agree on all other points. :)

MaxDZ8

12:23am | Apr 28, 2008

Uh, 2009, this is getting faster than I predicted.
Wonderful.

So, this initial "special edition" will be at 99k€. That would put it off my list such I believe it's just horrible to go over the magic 6-digit limit (and I've just burnt bit to get a whole container of PV).
I have high hopes for the "production" vehicles.

Pete;
Yeah, what these auto-wind-power-generator types don't get is that you want to let the wind and air slip by the car with as little disturbance and turbulence and drag as possible, not increase all those by running the air thru a high-resistance gizmo. Or: you can't eat your aerodynamics and have them, too! ;)

It's too bad there isn't a youtube video of the Uno Motorcycle in action, as photos, as stunning as they are, simply don't do it justice. It's like the Tesla Roadster, which looks way more impressive in the TV specials than in any static photo.

You know, Loren, you just made me realize: if an airplane had ZERO drag and turbulence it couldn't fly! Controlled and shaped vortices on the trailing upper edge of the wing produce a pressure drop that results in lift. :D OTOH, a plane fuselage with zero drag would be OK, and a rocket has no use for turbulence at all. And a fast light car needs down-force, hence spoilers.

Mark Hanson

10:40am | Apr 28, 2008

Thank you Loren, that made for quite the funny picture in my mind=)

Jason M. Hendler

11:38am | Apr 28, 2008

Brian H,

Speaking of downforce, the Saleen SR7 has a downforce greater than 1G, why having 40% less drag than its rivals.

Brian H: Actually it is a common misconception that the pressure drop generates lift to enable flight. The primary principle of lift from fixed wing flight is diplacing air downward. A wing can fly so long as the angle of attack directs sufficient air downward to lift its weight.

MaxDZ8;
Just curious; what are the registration taxes where you are? How much would an ICE vehicle's sticker price have to be for the base + taxes to total 99k€?

CM

7:58pm | Apr 28, 2008

Pete: Actually, the aerodynamics of a wing is even more complex than that. Not only do you have the air under the wing forced downward, but the air above the wing is dragged downwards as well, thanks to the low pressure caused by the Bernoulli principle. Ultimately, the lift force upwards is a reaction to the mass of air moving downwards, both below and above the wing, in true Newtonian fashion. It isn't Newton Vs. Bernoulli, it's Newton AND Bernoulli working together!

Applying that to creating a downforce for cars, you'd want the car shaped something like an upside-down wing. It is important to smooth the underside, where approx. 1/3 of the drag is produced, and have the underside smoothly sloping upward from mid-point to the rear. For an illustration, look at a side view of the Aptera car.

Yes, I knew that, but it's 6 of one, half-dozen of the other in a sense: pressure difference generates directed force.

But biologic flight seems somewhat different. Small birds and bugs swim through a viscous medium, prominently using a figure-8 kind of wing motion. Even large birds use their flight / pinion feathers like sensitive fingers manipulating local forces. Most upforce is thus produced on the upstroke, and most of the downstroke force directs air rearward, for foward motion. Fascinating stuff.

Erik A. Brandstadmoen

4:39am | May 6, 2008

Att: Sindre Berg,

In Norway electric cars are VAT excempt (and no other taxes either), so you needn't bother with VAT for Norway (which makes importing electric cars from abroad very lucrative in Norway).

Ben

10:56am | May 6, 2008

Looking at the design by GV (the two door with no roof), does anyone else think it looks remarkably like a just-before-the-turn-of-the-century Renault Megane cabriolet (the models before Renault switched to the hideous back-end that they have now)?

Also, I have actually considered what it would take to do an electric conversion on my car, but I lack the expertise myself and can't find a reputable company here in Germany that would do it for me that I would trust.

John Sandtorv

11:49am | May 8, 2008

Sales in Europe

Somewhat surprised I notice the price for promoted cars in Europe is in Euro instead of US$. Today the exchange rate is approx. 1.55, this makes the car approx. US$ 55 000) more expensive than the "US price". I'm willing to pay US$ 100 000 for this car, but there is no way I'll strech all the way to US$ 155 000... sad, but true.

In holland we were always in a disadvantage because out goverment adds an additional tax on the purchase and operation of a motor vehicle. This meant that cars in the Netherlands were always more expensive then abroad. importing was not an option cause they would still charge you the added tax. But because the dutch goverment as always wanted to be the best in class, introduced a new law saying none of these taxed would apply to cars that had zoro emmision. (aka electric and hydrogen) Now they actually anticipated that there would be zero to none of these cars on the market let alone be popular anought to even notice the decrease in tax income. But Tesla caught them offguard. And now we have an electric carm Free of BPM, and also Free of road taxes. This means on the downside that 99000,- euro is rediculously high considering I could import a new on from the US and "fly it in" for less.... And above all... The car is manufactured in Europe now why do we pay more... ???

Yes the idea of spreading more inward in Europe is very good! I know Tesla for a while and I am not sure that in Baltics many have heard of it, but I think it is just a matter of time, during my studies I came across some technologies as such, but still the old combustion rules the world also in here eventhough tehcnology is as old as the world. Anyway we welcome Tesla spreading, please think aslo about the Baltic states, since it is a very good "jump" point for such not easy markets as Russia, Ukrain etc.

Tom

6:56am | Jul 10, 2008

Happy to get one of your Tesla cars soon in Switzerland. Great product - Congratulations!

Roger Farmer

2:29pm | Dec 5, 2008

I have little doubt that EV's are the way forward. I much admire what you have achieved. While I recognise that you have considerable developement costs, a price of Euros 99,000 has no relevance to the vast majority of motoring public.

You need to be producing at the very least 1000 per week, or preferably twice that number to get your unit component costs down to where you can have some impact in the marketplace.
By impact I mean being able to sell a vehicle at around Euros 7000. Having spent some 30 years in component sourcing I am sure that it can be done, while remaining profitable to yourselves.

Put yourselves in the position of a buying public who buy a donkey every five years for very little. Along comes Enzo Ferrari offering salvation at Euros 100,000 a shot. Great for the people who already drive in guilded carriages but of no relevance to the donkey owners. There are more donkey owners than guilded carriage owners. If you are serious about having any real enviromental impact,then it is the donkey owners to whom you must be viable.

While GM, Ford , and Chrysler are asking 35 billion to keep their antedeluvian products afloat, I am sure you could persuade Obama that the entry price to real impact on the market place is much less. They are asking for heart transplants on aging cadavers at great cost, you could be asking for support for a whole new industry. It would also have positive employment potential, where as their request is for life support for a dinasour. From where I sit it is a no brainer.

I will follow your project with great interest and wish you every success.