See All Open Sight: Part 6

In the 9 years I’ve been writing this blog, I don’t think this has ever happened before. Last Friday, I wrote about my failure to get the See All Open Sight to work on the Beeman P1 pistol. I tried for 2 straight days to get it sighted in and nothing worked.

That was Friday’s report. Well, I went out to the rifle range on Friday, and my shooting buddy Otho met me there. He had one of his SKS rifles that had a scope mounted on it (on a Weaver base), and it was his plan to test the See All sight. Okay, I thought. Couldn’t hurt.

It didn’t hurt at all! After he shot the scoped rifle at 100 yards for the record, he removed the scope and installed the See All Open Sight. It took several shots to get it on paper at 50 yards, but then he shot a 5-shot group that measures 1.636 inches between centers! You may not be familiar with the accuracy of the SKS, but while it’s an extremely reliable rifle that almost never fails to operate, it’s only fair as far as accuracy is concerned. It’s a good battle rifle — but it’s certainly not a target rifle. Some individual rifles are more accurate than others, and this one happens to be Otho’s best one; but a sub-2-inch group at 50 yards from an SKS is worth talking about. And he did it with the See All Open Sight!

When we saw this 50-yard 5-shot group, we knew the See All sight worked! For an SKS, this is a great group.

When he was finished, we had to walk down to see the target because the cold wind was blowing so hard and our eyes were tearing so much that he couldn’t see but one of the shots through his spotting scope. I was looking through binoculars and could see even less. When I saw the target close up, I asked him to shoot 10 more shots for me at 50 yards.

Otho’s eyes
The reason I asked Otho to test the See All sight in the first place is because he has been battling failing eyes for several years. He can no longer use open sights like he once did, so scoped guns are about all he can shoot. The See All sight makes up for that and allows him to shoot like he used to 30 years ago. That’s what the See All Open Sight is about — a sight that lets shooters mount an open sight on a gun that doesn’t have one, or to use an open sight that can be seen with poor eyesight.

Wolf ammo
I guess I should also have told you that he did this with Wolf ammo, which isn’t the most accurate by far. Wolf is steel-cased with a mild steel-jacketed bullet. They’re reliable and aren’t corrosive, but there are several brands that will outshoot it.

Otho was able to see the See All sight reticle clearly enough to shoot just as good as when the SKS was scoped!

This SKS has a Weaver base attached to the left side of the receiver. The See All sight is clamped to it.

He then shot a 10-shot group at 50 yards with the SKS and the See All sight. This time he put 10 into 3.215 inches. While that’s a lot closer to what most SKS rifles normally do at 50 yards, I would like to point out that Otho was able to do it without using a scope. That’s significant because he couldn’t see the open sights on the rifle on this day.

This is a good 10-shot group for an SKS at 50 yards. The rifle was shooting Wolf ammo (the dark empty case), which doesn’t group as well as some other brands.

He commented that the See All sight was very fast to acquire. As breezy and cold as the day was, that was significant by itself. I was also shooting an open-sighted rifle that I’ll report on in a few days, and I was unable to see my front sight until I put on my glasses to cut the wind.

100 yards
Now, Otho shifted to the 100-yard targets, where a few minutes earlier he’d shot a 10-shot group with the scoped rifle. That netted him 9 shots on paper in a group that measures approximately 5-3/8 inches between centers. The 10th shot wandered off the paper.

With the See All sight, he put 9 shots into approximately 5.50 inches. Three of these shots wandered off the paper, but we found the holes clearly on the backer board, just above the target paper. He measured the 9 shots with his pocket knife, which measures 5.50 inches when open. There was a tenth shot on the paper, but it landed about 3.50 inches below the other 9 shots. We know this 10-shot group really measures 9 inches at 100 yards; but since we don’t know where the tenth shot from the scoped rifle landed, there’s no way to make a direct comparison. Nine shots to 9 shots is the best comparison we can make.

With the scoped rifle, 9 of 10 bullets hit the paper at 100 yards. This group measures 5-3/8 inches between centers.

With the See All Open Sight at 100 yards, Otho was able to put 9 shots into 5.50 inches, c-t-c with the SKS. Six of those 9 are on this paper, and the other 3 landed on the backer just above the target. The tenth shot down below does open the group by a lot; but since the tenth shot from the scoped rifle was not found, we can’t make a comparison.

Otho’s assessment
After seeing the 100-yard group, Otho said he thinks the See All Open Sight is perfect for hunting. While it’s not as good for target shooting, it’s fast to acquire a target — especially one that’s running. He’s decided to leave the See All sight on his SKS instead of the scope, and he plans to hunt with it.

My evaluation
I’m so glad this happened because I was beginning to lose confidence. But Otho showed us the sight is good and works as intended.

I have an M1 Carbine that’s chambered in 5.7mm Johnson Spitfire, and it currently has a Weaver base with a scope, as well. I also have a Remington 788 with a Weaver base. I think for my next test of the sight, I’ll load up some ammo and try one of those 2 rifles with a scope and with the See All at 50 yards. They should work the same as Otho’s SKS.

So, don’t despair. There’s at least one more test of this sight coming. For now, however, I have to say the See All Open Sight does what it’s advertised to do.

52 thoughts on “See All Open Sight: Part 6”

Here is something from the last comment that I made on part 5 before knowing about these results.

“And remember this all started out with a new product find at the SHOT show that was thought to be able to help somebody with poor eye sight. The thought was that somebody could shoot again with a sight that resembled a open sight that would come stock/factory on the gun. Not peep sights or aperture sights or red dot sights or scopes.

Some stock/factory sights are precise sights. But then compare them to a scope. I think the See All Sight does allow a person to shoot open sight and it can be just as accurate as a conventional open notch rear/post front sight. Maybe that should be the next test to see if the 2 types of sights compare in performance. And how often do you shoot a open sight out to 100 yards anyway.

Well and BB says hes got some kind of good results to show from his last time out with the sight. We only got a few more hours now to wait and see what he found.”

And for the record I tryed my See All Sight on a few different guns this weekend.

It was good on my semi-auto .22 cal.rimfire rifle plinking out to 60 yards. That was the farthest distance I could shoot these guns at when I tested the sight this weekend. The 22 reminded me alot of how I shot it when I was a kid. Open sight. But now I could be on the target even quicker than with the open sights.

And I did put it on a Stoeger x20s in .177 cal. I just threw it on the x20 after it was on the rimfire gun. I shot it at the 50 yards that I usually sight a gun in at. It did not hit the target. I didn’t even know where it hit. I shot again and saw the leaves above and behind the target jump. The dog gone gun shot high. I was so happy that I went in and told the kids and my wife. My oldest daughter knew why I was happy. She knew I was having a fit to get the sight to adjust my POI (point of impact) up. I went back out and adjusted the sight down and shot the heck out of the gun while we were BBQing. Me and my daughter.

And for some reason I shot this break barrel spring gun better than I have probably ever shot one. Don’t know exactly why. Maybe the gun, maybe I’m a little better, or maybe the sight helped also. I’m just going to say for my purpose to shoot a form of open sight again makes me happy with my eye sight. I do have to use glasses all the time. Even when I shoot. So whatever way the rest of the tests go it will be interested to see. But I know what the sight has done for me.

Score!
Went to the parts store on a job today. While the customer paid for his parts I went across the street the ‘tractor parts store’ to see if I could find another source for pellets. They had a Daisy display where I discovered Winchester Round Nose .177,(no weight, no head size) 2 tins left. I grabbed both of them and took them to the front counter. I explained that I would be buying the one tin so I could open & inspect them, if I liked what I saw I would buy the other one also. They looked like H&N FTT! when I got them home they hit low by about 1.5 inches low but tight. after 2 adjustments I printed the prettiest 1/4″, 5 shot group @ 10M! Long range testing starts tomorrow. Got the weight off PA 9.8 gr, the Airmaster loves ’em!
Does anyone know for sure who manufactures this pellet? At $4.99 for 500, this pellet is a sleeper and I will be buying more and testing in my other .177 cals!
If you haven’t tried them, pay no mind to the picture because that’s not what’s inside, just try ’em.

Hello BB and Fellow Airgunners
I suppose I was expecting some tighter groups then you have shown us, after you mentioned your friend Otho would have something special to show us using the SeeAll sight. Firstly, I don’t shoot fire arms, and I have no idea how capable an SKS is at 50, or 100 yards. I will take your word that the groups shown were good for this type of gun, and that Otho hasn’t shot with open sights for a while. These groups may even prove adequate for large game hunting with an appropriate caliber at 50 yards. As far as I have read and seen, the SeeAll would not be adequate for the type of air gun shooting I enjoy. I enjoy shooting such things as small plastic vitamin bottles, and reactive targets from 15-25 meters, with the occasional starling or magpie for added variety. Maybe with practice, I might come to like this sight, but at $100.00, I can find no reason for giving it a try. As far as I am aware, the SeeAll sight wasn’t designed with air guns in mind. I see its primary purpose as fast target accusation with a semi automatic rifle or pistol. That way you would have a few quick follow up shots should the first not hit the mark. Not a good situation for a spring powered single shot pellet gun.
All this being said, I am glad these devises are being developed and I am happy you see fit to put in the time to test them for our benefit. Who knows, maybe in the future the company will be able to tweak this sight so it will perform in a break barrel air gun should they see fit.
Titus

From day one I thought these sights are awesome, but I hesitate from buying them from the lack of mounting option on a Turkish Webley Tomahawk/ Longbow. I think the See All sights should go a little further and do the leg work for air gunners to make specific mount adapters for air guns that don’t have open sights. I can see that these sights have better use on (firearm)battle rifles to improve over the factory sights.

To BB,
The See All Saga continues…and I apologize for being slow to say something painfully obvious, but I didn’t think of it either. While staring at my still-newish ProSport leaning in the corner of my office, I realized when I had bought it earlier I had also included the BKL adjustable scope mount. This is the one-piece mount that comes in two pieces and designed to counter barrel-droop. My thinking at the time was to be able to keep scope adjustments near the middle sweet-spot without needing major internal scope movements. Having no fewer than 6 clamping screws and thusly not needing a scope-stop was an attractive additional feature.
So far, all has worked perfectly and I continue to highly recommend the mount.
So the apology I owe you comes from not realizing earlier that this mount may be the answer to the See All having so much difficulty just getting pellets onto the paper. You might check your review on this mount of July 11, 2011. I can easily see some objections one might have, notably making a simple sight solution complicated, but at least one could begin plunking pellets into the same time zone.

This is what happens upon waking at 3AM, taking it into ones head to dash off an Email with a great idea, accidentally delete one paragraph and go back to sleep. Sorry about that. The missing part had to do with the anti-droop feature in the mount and finding a way to incorporate that with the See All. Forget I said anything, it would have been too complicated anyway.
David

Should I retire from shooting on a high note 😉
Yesterday was the first ‘spring’ day we’ve enjoyed in Edmonton, with temps above freezing for the first time in two weeks.
Headed to the range with the Savage .22WMR.
A close to a dozen 5 shot groups…all around the average 1.25-1.5″ at 100m (110yds).
Had 5 shots left for the last group.
Put them all in a ‘hole’ that measured a true 3/8″ ctc (measuring the very outside of the group was just under 1/2″.
I was so glad I had no more ammo left…because I got to avoid the frustration of a 1.5″ followup group.
Don’t know if I’ll ever do that again…

I should say the daily topics are not showing up. But under it the link is there for the blog so I could of connected that way. Its like a section is missing and I tryed the home page a couple of times. Acts like that spot of the page doesnt want to load. Weird.

Reb. I like the Winchester round nose (domed) as well. They weigh in at 9.8 gr and are available at Walmart and Pyramyd. Very economical. I like them for slowing the velocity of my break barrel rifle in the backyard.

you seem to be the resident expert on the Talon on the blog (after BB, of course) and I have a question for you. Since my troubles with my Talon SS missing o rings and bad valve seals, I’m a bit paranoid now whether I’m missing any other o rings. So my question to you is, is there supposed to be an o ring at the breech where the pellet is inserted that is then covered by the top hat?

The sliding breech has two 0-rings. One is near the front, and is always in contact with the barrel . The other is at the rear, and slides over the barrel when cocking, but slides over the tophat when the breech is closed.

its – the Democratik Peoples Republik of New Jersey – a name I have chosen to (1) show others the draconian state of affairs as respects firearm ownership in this State and (2) differentiate me from other “Fred’s” on the blog. 🙂

So No Joysey can pretty much make any laws or regulations it pleases no matter constitutional or not because it’s its own republic? That stinks. Have you all heard of Georgias rally of the states to take our country back from the fat-cats? And so it begins!!

TT – thank you very much. I thought there should be one there as the rifle has been on the loud side since I re-assembled it. Gotta go, troops massing on the border waiting to invade. Oh, wait. It’s just Governor Christie and his louts fending off the lame stream media from seeing what else he screwed up.

I got hold of some silicone grease once that was bad news for the breech O-rings . It was some plumbing o- ring stuff.
In warm weather, the breech slid like it was on ball bearings, but it did not have to be very cool before the stuff got stiffer than frozen molasses. Caused the breech to chatter. Bad stuff. Drove the gun nuts.

Hey guys, got a late start today gunfun1, and Sal cleaning pellets really aren’t worth the money considering one can easily push patches through a break barrel and if you don’t use at least 2 or 3 you run the risk of damaging the piston, basically dry firing the gun. I’ve never found a need for them, though I’ve been tempted to pick some up a number of times. Im not surprised the see-all works good on the sks, it seems to have been designed for exactly such a gun. And how old is Othos SKS ? It looks to be 70s? Still waiting for my adapter, smartpost is not worth 8 bucks, I’ll be paying the extra 3 or 4 bucks for faster shipping. I am not patient enough for smartpost. My wife ordered some earings the day after me and paid 3 dollars for shipping and got her order in 2 days.

And I forgot to mention her earings are (supposedly) made to order glow in the dark leopard print plugs? Yes, we are tattooed freaks, but my point is they made them and shipped them and she received the order in a total of 3 days with 3 dollars shipping!(and that was waived with a coupon!) B.B. can we get pyramyd to ease up on shipping?

Need your opinion, please. I have had two b.b. pistols that now will no longer hold Co2. They both were purchased within a year. They are the Tanfoglio Witness (brown grips) and the Makarov (non-blow back).
I have been leaving them charged with a good Co2 cartridge in them, in between shooting sessions. I do, always use the drop of Pelgun oil when changing Co2 cartridges. Would it be better for them if I remove the Co2 cartridge and therefore remove pressure on the seals after I shoot them?

I used to think it was best to leave all CO2 guns charged, but a number of my newer guns will lose their gas over the term of a month. That seems to be the way they are designed. So I guess you can store them empty — because they will empty themselves anyhow.

It was mentioned a while back that automatic transmission fluid could be used to get a CO2 gun to seal. Well, I tried it today on a Crosman 180 that I couldn’t get to seal with pelgun oil. I used Dextron III fluid (Pennzoil). I dipped the CO2 cylinder in the fluid to the base of the neck. It took two applications but after three hours it is still holding. It might be just a quick fix but it looks good so far. The gun is shooting strong.

Mike, My 150 I used the Bars Stop Leak on as mentioned in BB’s blog a few months ago is still holding as well. The O-rings I left submerged in the stuff still haven’t dissolved or gotten squishy either.

I’m pleased to hear of the success, BB! However, despite what you said in Part 5, I still think the sight could be modified to perform more to my liking:

” the reticle is actually on film — shrunk to the size where the point of the triangle is 0.0002 inches across. That’s two ten-thousandths of an inch, or 0.00508 millimeters! This in in the realm of optics — not mechanical things. So, don’t try to modify the sight.”

I’ll guess there’s at least a couple thou of target-obscuring plastic above the 2/10ths wide tip of the triangle. If the chunk of translucent plastic can be removed from the sight frame, there’s no reason why most of that extra plastic could not be milled away, as far as I can see. To be cautious, the last few tenths could be removed by stroking the plastic on the face of a file. Actually, the entire job could probably be done with careful use of a file.

Similarly, I don’t see why the distracting trade dress below the reticle could not be milled away completely.

As I understand it, See All is seriously considering removing their name from the reticle. As far as the material above the reticle, it doesn’t seem to cause much of a problem when the sight is the right distance from your eye.

That’s more great news, B.B.! I really want to try one of these sights myself. I’ve read about the trademark being a distraction elsewhere and I read about Otho’s complaint of the space above the triangle here. Granted, I’ve not shot the sight yet but I can easily anticipate my less than complete satisfaction with a purchase, due to these two issues. In fact, I’m certain that the trademark will bug me, because my objection is partly founded in aesthetics. If they remove the trademark, I’ll buy a sight and then judge whether or not the space above the reticle is significant. 🙂

Just curious as to the status of any further test. It really intrigued me. My 92FS won’t accept it, but maybe a future air rifle / air pistol with the right rail. From what I scanned from the reports, the test moved to actual rifle applications. A list of air pistol and air rifles that accept this would be a nice. Just curios. Great web site with a wealth of info. that would take a life time to absorb. Keep at the great work!!!