Skepticism

EVENTS

Not as much fun as it sounds

This is Hazel Jones. She has two vaginas.

She has a condition called Uterus Didelphys. Variations of this condition aren’t uncommon, occurring once in a few thousand births. The reproductive tract develops from paired tubes that fuse prenatally, and sometimes the fusion is incomplete, producing a range of arrangements illustrated below.

Would you believe a pornographer has asked Ms Jones to star in a movie? (Of course you would — that’s exactly what you’d expect.) In this case, it’s stupid as well as insulting and offensive. Women with these kinds of conditions often don’t even know it until puberty or later — there aren’t any obvious external differences, so when she takes off her pants she looks like any other woman, and no, she can’t have sex with two men at once. In didelphys, the vagina is divided in two by an internal septum, nothing more. Sex with a man just means he can bear a little bit to the left or a little bit to the right and penetrate one side or the other. And even there, it’s possible to get surgery to reduce or remove the septum.

The primary problems for the woman are a little confusion during menstruation, with awkwardness in using tampons; and it does constrain the birth canal somewhat, so caesarian deliveries are recommended.

So…no obvious external differences; no special kinky sex; some reproductive difficulties; if the condition is known, somewhat more likely unpleasant interactions with dumbasses, like the porn producer. That’s about it.

Here’s another video about the condition (contains closeups of female genitalia, in a clinical setting).

TV from the U.K., quite a bit more enlightened than U.S. TV. I can’t imagine seeing that on a mainstream channel. They used the word vagina *GASP*. Its those wonderful Puritan ehtics that keep us in ignorance.

I have a friend who has two uteri. She was told that she would never be able to conceive, but surprise!, she did.
Her daughter developed quite normally in one uterus, and then, just to be different, her son developed in the other one a few years later. It’s amazing what the human body can do, despite what the docs tell us.
I happen to have double of something, too. On the right side, I have two perfectly formed ureters going from the kidney to the bladder, instead of the usual one. They both connect to the bladder very close to each other, so if one swells up a bit, it closes the other one off, and I get a heck of a UTI.
So, hurray for we girls who have that certain something extra!

Would you believe a pornographer has asked Ms Jones to star in a movie? […] there aren’t any obvious external differences, so when she takes off her pants she looks like any other woman, and no, she can’t have sex with two men at once.

this is what happens when the word “vagina” is consistently and wrongly used to describe the vulva. won’t someone please think of the poor, confused pornographers?

I’m half way through Dawkin’s “Greatest Show On Earth” so my (very limited) understanding would be that this is just a case of under-development. Is this condition comparable to something like hare lip?

What happened to this blog, PZ? You used to be cool. Now you’re calling porn ‘offensive’? There’s nothing wrong with porn.

This blog would be a lot more interesting if it stuck to biology (or at least a general scientific outlook) and sourced its claims — I’ll second omniz’s request for a source confirming that she was asked to appear in porn.

To be as pedantic as your minions and to follow logic and truthfulness, there are examples of women with one vagina having double and triple penile penetration of the vagina. Unless her condition would ultimately prevent this, you are wrong.

Do you have a link to a story about her being asked to appear in porn?

Cuz it’s, like, completely unbelievable that prurient pornographers would latch on to the Chick With Two Cunts and offer her a porn. I mean, srsly, what does PZ think men are, pigs? That’s totes an extraordinary claim that demands extraordinary evidence.

This blog would be a lot more interesting if it stuck to biology (or at least a general scientific outlook) and sourced its claims — I’ll second omniz’s request for a source confirming that she was asked to appear in porn.

You can go eat broken glass, too.

(I’m sorry to resort to this, but it’s been a long time coming):

WHAT IN BLEEDING FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU MISOGYNIST MEN? HAVE YOU NO GODDAMNED SHAME OR EMPATHY? DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCEPT OF WOMEN AS HUMANS WITH WANTS, DESIRES, EMOTIONS OR AGENCY?

I fucking you hate you male supremacist bastards. I hate your smug self-absorption. I hate your blithe dismissal of anyone who nudges your comfortable little me-me-me-my-cock-me-i’m-objective-me-ur-stupid-me-me-why-u-so-hysterical-me-me-my-peen just one petty degree out of whack.

Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. I look forward to the day you either die off or are so marginalized in polite discourse you’re ashamed to show your ignorant faces.

There is only one double vagina on the chart. The rest are “double uterus” and the only thing those do is an increased chance of twins and making birth a bit complicated (Just C-section the baby out and we can all get on with our lives!) Oh and the penis NEVER goes inside the uterus. No matter how big you think you are you aren’t going there.

It would just mean (as said) that a man would have to bear right or left and the wall can be removed making it a normal vagina although the issue is that the procedure can (and probably will) cause fibrosis which can cause pain for the woman making sexual intercourse a lot more painful since the vaginal walls are extremely elastic and scar tissue is not.

It would actually stop the idea of multiple penis penetration because “two vaginas” doesn’t mean two openings and the logistics of it is just stupid since the men would have to be side by side. Also you wouldn’t get to see this bit in the porno, not unless someone had a speculum…

I mean this is like going “Oh my! This person is left handed, let’s get him/her to star in pornography”. Really? You wouldn’t notice anything really different apart from a sort of weird penetration.

I have Two Vaginas makes people think “two holes”, not “my vagina has a septum”.

What happened to this blog, PZ? You used to be cool.
What happened to your comment quality, obnoxious fuckhead? You used to be…
Wait, who the fuck are you anyway? Why would anyone give two microfucks what you think?

Any number of people have anatomical variations that differ from the norm. To the extent that perhaps the concept of the norm should be re-evaluated.

Many people may pass their entire lives unaware of their third kidney, their blood vessel idiosyncrasies – whatever. A vagina with a septum is in no way remarkable – possibly less so than, say, hypospadias.

Thank you for your explanation, and it makes sense, although “the logistics of it is just stupid since the men would have to be side by side. Also you wouldn’t get to see this bit in the porno, not unless someone had a speculum…” don’t. No, they wouldn’t have to be side by side, and no speculum required. Just stating facts.

What happened to this blog, PZ? You used to be cool. Now you’re calling porn ‘offensive’? There’s nothing wrong with porn.

Read what PZ said again. He said

In this case, it’s stupid as well as insulting and offensive.

He did not say porn was bad, he said:

Women with these kinds of conditions often don’t even know it until puberty or later — there aren’t any obvious external differences, so when she takes off her pants she looks like any other woman, and no, she can’t have sex with two men at once.

In short, she does not look any different, and it is one of the variation in development that can cause issues in other areas.

Avicenna:

There is only one double vagina on the chart.

And it is the only one labeled “Didelphys.” So that makes sense if you read that PZ wrote:

She has a condition called Uterus Didelphys.

I also knew someone with two vaginas. She found out because she has also cervical incompetence. Upon looking at the picture shows that each cervix is small. So neither would be able to bear the weight of a growing baby.

She only found out after losing her first baby (which is why Uterus Didelphys was not initially suspected). His birth at six months could be best described as quick, surprising and very sad. He lived for only a a minute or so. Her next two pregnancies were considered high risk with enforced bed rest, and finally an caesarian section because both vaginas are too small for an almost full term baby.

So, yeah, it is idiotic to think that a genetic variation that makes conception and birth more difficult, plus one that cannot be seen clearly, would be considered “porn worthy.”

Don’t go off the deep end there Toots. I see from the link at the top of the Google search the following:

Hazel Jones appeared on TV earlier this week, where she revealed she was diagnosed with ‘uterus didelphys’ – a condition which means she has two wombs and two cervixes.

I haven’t spent much time looking into the issue, but it seems one might reasonably be a little skeptical about the situation as it would appear that she sought the notoriety she’s found.

Seems rather strange that the woman would go out of her way to tell the world about something that isn’t even all that uncommon, particularly given amblebury’s comments about “anatomical variations” – or maybe she just wanted to really show everyone that she was the “holiest” of the bunch ….

My, my, my. Such language. Why I never …. Or you will do what? Take photos and track me down? I guess free speech is only for one’s friends or fellow travelers.

”… as it would appear that she sought the notoriety she’s found.” And you know her motivations how?

Do try to put brain in gear before putting mouth in motion. I very carefully said that “I haven’t spent much time looking …” and that “it would appear …” Meaning it was my impression, my opinion, based on the few facts I had. And implying, for those able to read between the lines, that I was open to hearing any contrary facts you had in your quiver – which is apparently empty.

The “two vaginas” thing was blatantly an attempt to make porn where two men penetrate a single woman’s seperate and discrete vaginas. Except the guy who was flogging the idea probably didn’t google what that meant.

Don’t be such an ignorant cunt. Or maybe you think all women are, like you, as pure as the driven snow and conceive only by immaculate conception. Since your education has been somewhat remiss I’ll direct you to this portion of the book Generation of Vipers by the American moralist Philip Wylie who has a lengthy diatribe on the phenomenon of “momism” and related pathologies. Just so you won’t have a fainting spell before or while reading it the link was provided by Veronica Abbass – which should make the, no doubt, forthcoming charge of “misogynist” a little less credible.

Fuck off and spew them elsewhere.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Such language really isn’t doing much to change my initial judgement. This is, as far as I know, P.Z. Myers’ blog and he is really the only one who can credibly – and effectively – tell me to do that. Anyone else – and there seems to be a crowd here who seem to think to speak for him on that point – is only blowing smoke.

Oh. Another voice of reason heard from. And I suppose you think “asshole” and “fuck off” is the language of polite company and civil discourse? Or maybe just when it is used by your friends and fellow travelers against others? Who knew that was the way double standards really worked? Learn something new every day ….

This is, as far as I know, P.Z. Myers’ blog and he is really the only one who can credibly – and effectively – tell me to do that. Anyone else – and there seems to be a crowd here who seem to think to speak for him on that point – is only blowing smoke.

PZ is the only person with the power to force you to leave against your will. I suppose, if you are the sort of misogynist who gets some sort of perverse thrill out of being told over and over again that he’s a disgusting worthless piece of trash, then you could choose to remain. Cheaper than hiring a dom, no doubt. It’s up to you. But obviously the culture here isn’t going to be suitable for someone of your particular sensibilities. As for me, when I tell you to fuck off, it’s just my personal preference. I got over trying to hang out with people who didn’t like me just after middle school. What’s the cause of your delayed development?

Oh. Another voice of reason heard from. And I suppose you think “asshole” and “fuck off” is the language of polite company and civil discourse?

Hey, you got it!
Cupcake, this is Pharyngula. We ain’t no polite company, we are the Horde.
Discourse here is so notoriously uncivil that other bloggers use it as an example of what they don’t want on their blog.
Nobody here gives a rat’s ass about profanity.
Sexist, racist, ableist and other discriminatory language, on the other hand, are heavily despised.
So, get used to it or get out.
We’d prefer the latter, don’t forget your porcupine

maybe you think all women are, like you, as pure as the driven snow and conceive only by immaculate conception.

You should demand your money back from whoever claimed he was going to teach you telepathy.

And as far as insults go, “cunt” doesn’t work much on me. After all, I have one, and I happen to know it’s pretty awesome. Unless you weren’t trying to insult me but rather trying to tell me that I’m juicy, funky, flexible, and creative. Which would be true.

We don’t give a fuck about swearing, dumbass. We don’t take kindly to sexist assholes, is all. Fucking idiot.

Though non-sexist assholes are ok then, I take it?

But judge, jury and executioner. Cool. How’s the pay? Would have to be pretty high to justify selling one’s integrity …. Or maybe you’d care to lay out the evidence on the table for the charge.

And, by the way, and in passing as an exposition on the double standard, maybe you could explain how Josh’s diatribe (#21) doesn’t qualify as some rather odious hate-speech and some rather egregious sexism itself. No rush, at your leisure ….

Hey, I was watching “Star Trek” the other day and I noticed that when the security officers apprehend Kirk after he beams aboard the Enterprise, one of the goons calls Kirk, “Cupcake.” Which made me smile and think fondly of the Horde.

Steersman: If you think you’re gonna get away with that cunt bullshit over at Ophelia’s place, you’ve got another think coming.

Late flash here for you Josh: I’m not now at Ophelia’s place; I’m here at PZ’s place. And I’m not trying to get away with anything, just pointing out, making it real simple for you, that people who live in glass houses ….

Don’t mind assholes in general, no, as long as they can admit it and aren’t hateful fucks. As for the rest of your babble, I know most of us wouldn’t give half a fuck about it even if we knew what the fuck you were on about, so continuing to post here would be a waste of your undoubtedly prodigious capability to spew bullshit. You’re just pathetic enough to keep it up, though, I bet.

I got over trying to hang out with people who didn’t like me just after middle school.

What is this? A popularity contest? The Mean Girls [and wannabes]? You take positions on issues only because your friends do or because you actually sincerely believe in them – and have some justification for doing so? Other than wanting to be with the in-crowd that is ….

You take positions on issues only because your friends do or because you actually sincerely believe in them – and have some justification for doing so? Other than wanting to be with the in-crowd that is …

Like I said: that telepathy thing really isn’t working out for you. Yes, I like Pharyngula because “the in-crowd” believes that women are people and should be treated accordingly. That is, with respect and without degrading slurs (and insults related to the content of their character rather than the particular genetic lottery ticket they drew). You clearly don’t. There are plenty of havens for disgusting misogynists on the web. Since you’re here instead of there, and are blatantly trolling, I can only surmise that you have some sort of weird fetish about being told about how terrible of a person you are. Feel free to prove me wrong by fucking off.

figures the mentioning of the words “vagina” and “porn” would attract the pondscum.

Steery, don’t use phrases like “double standards” if you don’t actually know what they mean, it makes you look stupid. FYI, being against slurs but not against swearing is not a “double standard” by any stretch of the imagination.

So, Steersman, do you believe that all men are misogynist assholes (and, by extension, that you are sexist against men)? Or are you going to admit that there was no sexism in Josh’s rant against misogynist assholes, and your trolling complaints about double standards are just so much bullshit?

And, by the way, and in passing as an exposition on the double standard, maybe you could explain how Josh’s diatribe (#21) doesn’t qualify as some rather odious hate-speech and some rather egregious sexism itself. No rush, at your leisure ….

Hmm. I’m a man and I sure as hell didn’t feel targeted by what Josh said @21. Wonder why you did? Oh, right…

Okay, I see we have a MRA in residence. I propose a new game, this time based on the excellent Radio 4 panel game “Just A Minute“.

The MRA has 3 posts to advance their argument in less than a minute(‘s worth of reading) without repetition, hesitation or deviation, otherwise the full fury of the Horde* will descend upon them. There will be a wailing and gnashing of teeth.

No, I don’t. Which is part of the reason for my response to Josh’s diatribe which looked to me liked painting with a very wide brush.

Or are you going to admit that there was no sexism in Josh’s rant against misogynist assholes, and your trolling complaints about double standards are just so much bullshit?

But a good question though. Since I haven’t given a lot of thought to the issue, let’s start with a definition, even if only for my own point of reference:

Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is defined as prejudice or discrimination based on sex; or behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex.

While I’ll concede that misogynists probably deserve the epithet of “assholes” and deserve to be censured, I’m still of the opinion that Josh’s vituperative and intemperate screed – I mean “eat broken glass” and “male supremacist bastards” and “look forward to the day you either die off”; reminds me of what Jessica Ahlquist had to face – suggests a level of hate of men in general – some prejudice and discrimination – that qualifies as sexism, at best. More specifically, the only phrase that Josh quoted that could have conceivably caused his outburst was “I’ll second omniz’s request for a source confirming that she was asked to appear in porn”. Just a little difficult for me to see how that qualifies as being misogynist; maybe the straw that broke the camel’s back but maybe a very questionable and flawed definition of and criteria for misogynism.

And something I would say that is a systemic problem that has bedeviled and crippled and hindered more than a few related discussions in the last six months or a year – and probably far longer. Part of the reason why I made reference to that chapter in Wylie’s book which details, quite reasonably and credibly I think, more than a few cases where women were quite a bit less than the paragons of virtue that many feminists seem to think is true of all women. While that of course doesn’t excuse the worst behaviours of men in response it suggests that not all criticisms of women are going to qualify as misogynism. And if Greta Christina can concede some “accusations of misogyny or sexism were bullshit” then those cases really have to qualify as sexism: prejudice or discrimination based on sex.

“Just in case anyone is interested.” They aren’t. But you knew that you dumb fuck.

And your mother wears army boots.

You really need to come up with some better insults. Or grow up and realize that, as you should have learned in the schoolyard, “sticks and stones may break my bones ….” Or even try coming up with a cogent argument instead of useless ad hominems ….

A double standard is the application of different sets of principles for similar situations, or to different people in the same situation. A double standard may take the form of an instance in which certain concepts (often, for example, a word, phrase, social norm, or rule) are perceived as acceptable to be applied by one group of people, but are considered unacceptable—taboo—when applied by another group.

Looks to me like “cunt” and “fuck off” and “asshole” are all considered profanity. Looks to me like a double standard. Take it up with Wikipedia if you’re not happy about it.

And it’s Steersman. Unless you want me to start trying for some double-entendres or corruptions on your name.

Seems rather strange that the woman would go out of her way to tell the world about something that isn’t even all that uncommon, particularly given amblebury’s comments about “anatomical variations” – or maybe she just wanted to really show everyone that she was the “holiest” of the bunch ….

It may not be that uncommon, but I doubt the British public know much about it. I can only presume that you think that such ignorance is to be preferred.

Steersman, either mature up and use our words, or fade into the bandwidth. About once a month someone like you tries this shit–and it is shit. They lose everytime. Now that you know what will happen, make your decision and live with the consequences.

You really need to come up with some better insults. Or grow up and realize that, as you should have learned in the schoolyard, “sticks and stones may break my bones ….” Or even try coming up with a cogent argument instead of useless ad hominems …

NO. YOU FUCKING IDIOT.

Ad hominem is NOT insults. Here’s an example of ad hominem:
Person X is an atheist. Atheists can’t be trusted, therefore their argument is wrong.

An insult is completely fucking different. You can avoid fallacies and still use insults – it’s not hard. For example:
“No, you moron, an omni-everything god is logically impossible. Refer to the saying “can God create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it?” Fucking idiot.”

That’s not an ad hominem at all, it’s just being insulting while making an argument, which is more than accepted around here, it’s encouraged. Get used to it.

Most definitely not. But that seems to have been all that Josh saw (#21), or rather the request for some corroborating evidence. Maybe sc_175808983f7a7dfae842921a412bde0f (sc_1758 for short) was lazy in not doing a search him/her/self but I hardly think it justified what I consider an over-the-top piece of hate-speech and sexism.

All I did was make that argument which a great many seem to have taken as prima facie evidence of misogynism on my part. Which I have objected to.

My mom has this (bicornuate bicollis) and had 3 kids, though she experienced greater difficulty as they went along. I was the eldest and a c-section which was the easiest, the septum was ruptured with my younger brother which greatly weakened her uterus for my youngest brother so he was born 10 weeks early. My youngest brother was also in the opposite uterus that me and my other brother were in.

She also has one kidney, and said one of her doctors said the condition is often present with the bicornuate uterus.

My family also has auxillory nipples (bits of nipple flesh on the stomach, hard to tell from moles unless you pay close attention). This I have, though my innards are typical.

All I did was make that argument which a great many seem to have taken as prima facie evidence of misogynism on my part. Which I have objected to.

Your objection has been noted and dismissed. The evidence is that you have exhibit signs of misogyny. For example it has been noted you take exception to Ms Jones using her condition to educate others.

For example it has been noted you take exception to Ms Jones using her condition to educate others.

What a fucking joke! How the hell do you manage to read that into any of my statements? There is nothing that I’ve seen that would lead me to conclude that any proffered reason is any better than another.

I haven’t spent much time looking into the issue, but it seems one might reasonably be a little skeptical about the situation as it would appear that she sought the notoriety she’s found.

Seems rather strange that the woman would go out of her way to tell the world about something that isn’t even all that uncommon, particularly given amblebury’s comments about “anatomical variations” – or maybe she just wanted to really show everyone that she was the “holiest” of the bunch ….

1)cunt is a word for vagina
2)a vagina is an inherent attribute of a class of people, namely women
3)cunt is used as offensive slang

thus: a term for an inherent attribute of a class of people is used as offensive slang. you’ve not refuted me in any way, cupcake. the fact that a word for vagina is used as an offensive way to refer to a person is what makes it a slur.

What an asshole, a douchenozzle even. I figured that dogmatic thinking was characteristic only of the religious but now I’m not so sure – strike that; I’m sure it’s not.

Nope, there is no way that the use of the C-word isn’t sexist and demeaning. You have to acknowledge that it is to be rational. That is why nobody has changed our minds, and neither will you. It’s facts, not sophistry.

PZ has already warned you once. If you keep this up, he will ban you. You wouldn’t be the first and you won’t be the last.

Cunt: 3. Offensive slang a mean or obnoxious person

You aren’t seriously going to pretend that the common usage of the phrase is not as derogatory slang for female genitalia, are you? Surely you don’t honestly expect anyone to buy the “I didn’t mean it in its most common usage as a genderd insult, even in a thread related to misogyny” line?

You will have to try a lot harder than that.

Nothing in there that I see that says that it is insulting all of the people who have that attribute. Looks to me like victimhood run amok. Something that many seem to share with Muslims.

Misogynist dogwhistles and racism all in one little paragraph? Why, you are quite a piece of work, aren’t you…?

(I initially couldn’t watch the second video PZ linked because it’s unavailable in the UK (weirdly as it’s a UK vid)…but a little google fu and up it comes, so I watched it. Be aware UK viewers.)

Brave woman! Well, anyone that goes on “Embarrassing Bodies” gets a medal in my book. I was cheered by her visible relief when the consultant gave her the good news that she should be capable of bearing children, subject to the obvious potential problems her condition brings.

Good on her and good luck to her! I hope her courage helps others get the help they need.

Reading this post, I was struck firstly by how broad human experience and physiology can be – I had no idea that a condition like Uterus Didelphys even existed before today.

Unfortunately, I then came across something that is no surprise at all – that some elements of the adult entertainment industry are repugnantly exploitative, and that lots of porn produces are complete and utter insensitive, misogynist arsehats.

And finally, I was reminded once again of an even less surprising phenomenon – that any thread about women or women’s issues will always bring out the angry misogynist morons that seem to lurk around Pharyngula for no other reason than to troll threads like this one.

Ammendium: People have convinced me that a term that is meant to offend by comparing the target with another minority is offensive to that minority. Since I wouldn’t want to offend people I don’t mean I would no longer use it..even against a member of that demographic as a) it is dishonorable taking advantage of such a power imbalance that is outside of the conversation/topic b) it offends people I don’t want it to.

Obviously context is important, idiot, moron, etc no longer have a medical or common usage definition towards a group, nor does Hooligan or Barbarian. Some terms are on the fence for me (bitchy as an adjective but not as a noun) others are flat out (retard, gay, pussy, any ethnic slur).

I don’t feel good or responsible using a past history of injustice to slam an individual.

I have a friend who has two uteri. She was told that she would never be able to conceive, but surprise!, she did.
Her daughter developed quite normally in one uterus, and then, just to be different, her son developed in the other one a few years later.

I have a friend with a bicornate uterus, too. She’s had two children, but both developed in the same uterus. Apparently only one of them is big enough to accommodate a pregnancy, so her prenatal work-ups involved making sure that the embryos had implanted in the “right” uterus.

The above illustrations show everything as fairly symmetrical. Is that an artistic convention, or do these variations usually develop symmetrically?

Diphallia. From work, I can’t view the two videos on the subject that were linked earlier, but there’s the Pfft! article, anyway.

Josh: Great job.

I’m not sad that Steersman got banhammered, but I am a little disappointed that I didn’t get to flame him personally. His recommendation of Phililp Wylie was pretty telling.

His smarmy comments about Ms. Jones’ motivations, I think, can be summed up thusly: Women’s bodies exist only to serve teh menz. They cannot possibly be of health interest, because interest in one’s own health is something taken only by people. Women aren’t people, just fucktoys and broodmares. Certainly, any women watching the BBC program are not the most important viewers. Any scientific importance of Ms. Jones’ condition is far outweighed by her membership in the sex class. So, if she goes on TV to talk about her medical condition, she’s a Slutty McSlutterson who’s asking for rude jokes and porn offers.

Hey, Horde, should we be adding “fellow travelers” to the lexicon alongside “thought police” and “hive mind”?

Indeed, Daisy. Any idiot could surmise from watching the video that the ignorance Ms. Jones had about her condition and its symptoms prevented her from diagnosing it and possibly getting treatment earlier than she did. The obvious motivation for going on the television, then, is to spread awareness so that other women and girls with the same or similar condition can realize sooner what is going on with them.

But that’s what happens with bigotry. It’s lazy thinking and it makes people incredibly stupid. Aside from the hatefulness, it really does handicap one’s perception of reality. As Steersman so aptly demonstrated.

Seriously, everyone read that link. It’s an amazing rundown of the developmental biology of human genitalia, as revealed through intermediate forms, and a discussion of the social factors driving the most common kinds of assignment-at-birth; and if you aren’t interested in any of that, I don’t know why you’re reading this blog. :P

personal insults are not ad hominem arguments–argumentum ad hominem–and are therefore not fallacies of relevance since they make no real argument, but they are ad hominem attacks.

SRSLY? Why would anyone bother with the Latin term if all they meant was just “personal insult”? Sorry, but the most parsimonious interpretation is that when someone uses the term ad hominem, they’re implying a logical fallacy… and in a large majority of the cases we see ’round here, they’re DOIN’ IT RONG!!!

Bill, people often use the term ad hominem to mean not just ad hominem fallacies but also personal insults–and indeed such attacks they are “to the person.” They’re really two different types of ad hominems; one is an an attempt at an argument that is generally considered a falacy, the other is a merely an insulting attack. A parsimonious reading must also take into consideration that the term may mean either one, or both simultaneously.

…people often use the term ad hominem to mean not just ad hominem fallacies but also personal insults…

Yes, and those people are idiots.

We HAVE a word in English that means “insult”. That word is “insult”.

There is NO FUCKING REASON to use “ad hominem” to mean “insult” when a) insult is the correct word to use and b) “ad hominem” has been adopted to refer to a specific thing WHICH IS NOT SYNONYMOUS with “insult”.

Dude, myeck, an insult can be appropriate given a context; there’s such a thing an an intelligent insult. “Ad hominem” specifically refers to an attempt to shut down someone without really engaging them through nonsensical personal attacks. This is often what misandrists do.

There is NO FUCKING REASON to use “ad hominem” to mean “insult” when a) insult is the correct word to use and b) “ad hominem” has been adopted to refer to a specific thing WHICH IS NOT SYNONYMOUS with “insult”.

Of course there is: nerd cred.

It’s two pol sci sophomores quoting Socrates in an argument: nothing of substance is said, but Socrates therefore +1.

Technically, using ad hominem to mean ‘insult’ would be an example of argumentum ad pretentious fuckwittem (my Latin is rusty, not having ever studied it or lived during a time when it was spoken by non-elitists.)

I think what happens when people are using it in the sense of “insult”, it hasn’t really become an accepted and normal usage to them, but is more like they’re trying to emulate a higher-register academic usage, i.e. they’re using the word as a fancy term for “insult” in order to sound more erudite. This can only be determined by analysing the person’s speech in detail, but I think this is often what other people perceive.

there are three more cases (genitive, dative, ablative), which I will disregard here.

sententia: nominativesententiam: accusative (incidentally, final -m was omitted quite soon in Vulgar Latin. Also accusative forms usually form the base forms for the nouns in the modern Romance languages. For instance, “law”: lex, legem -> ley, or “night” nox, noctem -> noche)

In the singular, accusative usually ends in -m, with the exception of neuter nouns whose accusative forms are identical to the nominative. In the plural, accusative usually ends in -s (again with the neuter exception)

Sigh. So, here we have an informative post about a a person who has congenital condition and is willing to publicly discuss it so as to raise awareness (and hopefully help others), and this pipsqueak uses it to drone on (and on) about its delusion about an unrelated matter.

Rip Steakface, personal insults are not ad hominem arguments–argumentum ad hominem–and are therefore not fallacies of relevance since they make no real argument, but they are ad hominem attacks.

“Ad hominem attacks” is a conceit conjured up out of whole cloth by misunderstanding the concept of an argumentum ad hominem. It has no legitimate utility or relevance; it adds nothing to the discussion over calling them “insults” except to attempt to dishonestly bring the “fallacy” connotation derived from the resemblance to “argumentum ad hominem” to bear.

Cuz it’s, like, completely unbelievable that prurient pornographers would latch on to the Chick With Two Cunts and offer her a porn. I mean, srsly, what does PZ think men are, pigs? That’s totes an extraordinary claim that demands extraordinary evidence.

Huh. Wonder why it’s the first goddamned citation on a Google search.

Eat shit you bastard.

Josh: Jesus, man… calm the fuck down. I completely believe she was asked, I just wanted to read the story about it.

The point of this story was NOT that she was offered a role in porn, but that here was an interesting medical condition. And the porn offer is all you see?

PZ: It’s not all I saw… I read the entire website that you linked to. I just wanted to read more about the porn offer too. Thanks for the link, checking it out now!

This blog would be a lot more interesting if it stuck to biology (or at least a general scientific outlook) and sourced its claims — I’ll second omniz’s request for a source confirming that she was asked to appear in porn.

Oh but gee, all these dudes show up to my blog telling me how porn is just pretty pictures of naked ladies, not a show intended to humilate women. I wonder who is right, considering stories like these?

WHAT IN BLEEDING FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU MISOGYNIST MEN? HAVE YOU NO GODDAMNED SHAME OR EMPATHY? DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCEPT OF WOMEN AS HUMANS WITH WANTS, DESIRES, EMOTIONS OR AGENCY?

I am hopeful that this capacity naturally exists in most men, but spending years and years masturbating to orgasm over inequality makes it pretty fucking hard for most dudes to keep a semblance of empathy for women. It is hard for me to think of a better conditioning system than repeated orgasm; the material associated with it is hard for a regular porn viewer to critically examine. And by “regular porn viewer” I mean “90% or more of men”. He must have convinced himself its what women are for.

That is all I saw, men with interesting medical conditions aren’t treated this way (and well I was aware of uterine/vaginal birth abnormalities before). I notice shit like that, things that signify the lower place of women in society. Heck, you don’t even have to have a rare medical condition to be offered a role in humiliation porn. Natalie Suleman (who gave birth to 8 children) was offered increasingly large sums of cash for a porn appearance, during a financially vulnerable situation for her, and very few people thought there was anything wrong with that. This was during all the random hate filled comments apparing on news/gossip sites about her appearance, about how disgusting looking she was from random dudes. It isn’t even about being attractive, it is about being a fuck-toilet, an outlet for the sexual incontinence of angry misogynistic men.

They are so fucked up! Yeah totally, along with all those damn pro-homo anti-mormon gays and those uppity reverse-racist brown people, right? They don’t know their place under their boot so you call it hate when they get (rightly) angry about being treated like shit in a systematic fashion. Fuck you. Fuck you for not understanding the difference.

Hmm, this “matriarchy” troll smells similar to one of the regulars over at Manboobz known as “MRA Lieutenant” who’s been told repeatedly to get off the Internet and seek therapy for his abusive behaviour. (And one of his socks uses the same gravatar.)

So, Steersman got banhammered? Couldn’t happen to a more deserving Dogsberry. He’s got ample prior history on this issue – being asked directly by Ophelia Benson no less than four times in the one thread to drop it, and he still couldn’t do it. What an ass.

Now look here Mr ChasCPeterson… It’s perfectly easy for somebody just to come along here to Pharyngula simply claiming… that they have a bit to spare in the botty department, but the point is Mr. ChasCPeterson, our readers need proof.

I am hopeful that this capacity naturally exists in most men, but spending years and years masturbating to orgasm over inequality makes it pretty fucking hard for most dudes to keep a semblance of empathy for women. It is hard for me to think of a better conditioning system than repeated orgasm; the material associated with it is hard for a regular porn viewer to critically examine. And by “regular porn viewer” I mean “90% or more of men”. He must have convinced himself its what women are for.

I read once that as many as 4% of people have a double kidney (two small ones) on one side or the other, so perhaps kidneys are especially variable. A kidney can also have extra lobe. And we all have natural variations in exactly where veins occur and so on. It’s part of the heritage of being constructed from a growth process rather than a blueprint.