"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

It appears that she pleaded guilty to "administering a poison with intent to procure miscarriage of pregnancy". It is highly likely that the sentencing judge was constrained by a statutory maximum penalty, especially given his Honour's comments as to the gravity of the crime -- "[lying] between manslaughter and murder".

Some sense at last, now we need to get them to do the same for all pregnancies...

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

The scenario you describe is pretty far from the OP. Perhaps you can say what you think of the case of Sarah Louise Catt before interrogating others with a hypothetical situation.

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"A riddle or the cricket's cryIs to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

The scenario you describe is pretty far from the OP. Perhaps you can say what you think of the case of Sarah Louise Catt before interrogating others with a hypothetical situation.

I'm not talking about Sarah Catt, but to the few people in this thread who stated that they wish they would do this to all people who get abortions.

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

A grown woman has pleaded guilty to the crime of administering a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage of pregnancy. The sentencing judge characterised her crime as somewhere between manslaughter and murder.

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

Lest I be accused of dodging your questions, here are my answers:

(1) Not burden my daughter with the guilt that belongs to a murderess by aiding/abetting the killing of her child.

(2) The answer is no different to (1).

(3) Certainly.

What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

I have a 9 year old son during the whole time his mother was pregnant with him I contemplated how to go abort terminating the pregnancy illegally, when I cheated on his mother I got other women pregnant and even paid for an abortion I am deserving of a prison cell even more then this women. I only exist as a free man because of the steadfast love and compassion of Christ for sinners. I can only beg God to do the same for her.

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

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(3) Certainly.

I'd feel bad for your children. If I had a daughter and she had been through the same thing, and some religious nuts were trying to outlaw her from getting an abortion, my response to them would be F#@$ You! and I would let her decide if she wants one or not.

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What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

No, but rather incompassionate, invasive and harsh.

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I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

I am deeply perturbed by the lack of compassion among the pro-life crowd.

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

A grown woman has pleaded guilty to the crime of administering a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage of pregnancy. The sentencing judge characterised her crime as somewhere between manslaughter and murder.

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

Lest I be accused of dodging your questions, here are my answers:

(1) Not burden my daughter with the guilt that belongs to a murderess by aiding/abetting the killing of her child.

(2) The answer is no different to (1).

(3) Certainly.

What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

Well said. How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

I still would not kill my grandchild. Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

A human being created in the image and likeness of God is not an "undesirable thing" to be removed as if it was a cancerous tumour.

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I'd feel bad for your children. If I had a daughter and she had been through the same thing, and some religious nuts were trying to outlaw her from getting an abortion, my response to them would be F#@$ You! and I would let her decide if she wants one or not.

If these religious nuts were without understanding or compassion, as is often the case unfortunately, then yes, you'd be right in cursing them out. However, rather than encouraging your daughter to murder the innocent child, every bit as much a victim of the hideous crime as your daughter, the Christian response would be to do everything in your power to help her get through it. Raising the child as your own if need be, or finding a childless couple willing to adopt.

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No, but rather incompassionate, invasive and harsh.

Encouraging your daughter to kill her own child, the psychological effects of which she would have to live with for the rest of her life, is not necessarily a more compassionate or loving response.

...Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?

I do not know, but I would. I honestly do not see why we shouldn't make moral concessions for abortion, seeing that we've made moral concessions for other things in the past. Hell, even God sanctioned abortion by sentencing fornicators to stoning.

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do?

I would explain to her that with the use of sexuality comes responsibility, and since she is not ready to handle it herself (see: having sex and getting pregnant in the first place), the decision whether or not to keep the child is not hers, but that of her parents (who also, hypothetically of course, will be locking her up in the basement until she can't remember what a boy looks like!). Her child will be born, by the grace of God, and we will go from there as far as figuring out what to do with the baby. (Raise it, adoption, etc.; It's hard to know what to hypothetically do with a hypothetical baby, a hypothetical oversexed and confused child, and a hypothetical wife, plus all the other hypothetical family who conceivably have their own advice and help to give.)

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And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Just as it was not her fault that these terrible things happened to her, we do not want to compound the tragedy with even more tragedy by killing a baby. The answer is ultimately the same as for the first question, despite the radically different circumstances.

As Akimori has written, there is no other opinion that is acceptable in Christianity. All this stuff about "burdening her for 9 months" is bunk. You know what's a real burden for the rest of your life? Knowing that there would be a child out there, born of your flesh, a perfect and holy blessing of God (even if conceived in very unholy circumstances), who is not walking upon this earth as s/he should be so that you wouldn't be "burdened" for 9 months of your life. 9 months is a relatively short measurement of time, not a life in toto. A baby is a life. The two are not comparable.

A human being created in the image and likeness of God is not an "undesirable thing" to be removed as if it was a cancerous tumour.

Yet we still do precisely that during war and with capital punishment. The point being that as sad as it is, sometimes we have to do these things because we live in a fallen world. We have to adapt given the lousy circumstances God has allowed us to endure. In fact, He is the one to blame for all of this, but that is a different story.

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If these religious nuts were without understanding or compassion, as is often the case unfortunately, then yes, you'd be right in cursing them out. However, rather than encouraging your daughter to murder the innocent child, every bit as much a victim of the hideous crime as your daughter, the Christian response would be to do everything in your power to help her get through it. Raising the child as your own if need be, or finding a childless couple willing to adopt.

I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all. I know firsthand how difficult it is to have a child as a teenager because my mother got pregnant with me at fifteen.

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Encouraging your daughter to kill her own child, a psychological effects of which she would have to live with for the rest of her life, is not necessarily a more compassionate or loving response.

I never said I would encourage her to have an abortion, but allow her to have one in the end if she really decided upon it. You may be right about the psychological affects that come along with abortion, but then again, I'm sure there are also psychological affects that come along with her having to endure pregnancy at such a young age and then risk her life giving birth. I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth. And I would condemn anyone who would.

...Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?

I do not know, but I would. I honestly do not see why we shouldn't make moral concessions for abortion, seeing that we've made moral concessions for other things in the past. Hell, even God sanctioned abortion by sentencing fornicators to stoning.

As Orthodox Christians I don't think we can make moral concessions against loving the unborn child enough to at least let the child be adopted into another family even if we can't accept this innocent victim into our own family due to the hurt of the circumstances involved in its conception.

I never said I would encourage her to have an abortion, but allow her to have one in the end if she really decided upon it.

Since when is a 13-year-old prepared or entrusted to make such a decision? Even forgetting the fact that they're not (mentally) prepared to be in physical/sexual relationships in the first place, they certainly aren't prepared to make decisions regarding the lives of other people. And that's what a baby is: A person. Not a "thing", regardless of what you, who is also not prepared mentally or in any other way to be deciding such things, think about what you'd do to your hypothetical daughter in a given situation.

Yet we still do precisely that during war and with capital punishment.

An unborn child is innocent, a criminal facing capital punishment is not. War is a terrible crime, but even then it's a matter of killing or being killed. You taking one life to save another, or perhaps thousands of others. Abortion, unless the mother is sure to die if the pregnancy goes ahead (which is quite a different situation), does not prevent the death of any other person.

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I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all.

If your daughter was as young as 13, as suggested in your example, there is no way you as a responsible parent would allow her to make such a decision on her own, especially in a state of extreme emotional distress.

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I know firsthand how difficult it is to have a child as a teenager because my mother got pregnant with me at fifteen.

May God bless her for chosing to spare your life and bring you into the world despite the obvious difficulties it would entail.

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I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth.

If there was a high probability that your daughter would die during labour, that's another question.

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

your tired and laughable appeal to emotion

Its an American tradition. Would you deny Americans their right to tradition? You surely must be a Hitler-worshipping plantation owner.

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What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

lol, yep, that's probably coming next.

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I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

What are you going on about? How can you be Orthodox and a pro-abort? I assume your priest taught you basic Orthodox Christian moral theology and the commandments.

I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all.

In the eyes of the law, a 13-year-old does not have the judgment to drive, vote, live on their own, or have sex. (Heck, in some states a crisis pregnancy center is required to notify police if a 13-year-old comes in pregnant, regardless of the circumstances.)

If a teenager does not possess the judgment to do these things, she certainly doesn't have the judgment to decide whether she's going to take her child's life.

Call it coldhearted, but the right of an innocent child to exist trumps the any right the mother has to comfort.

As for the OP, I'm glad there is some sense of lawfulness in today's world. Murder is murder.

James, perhaps you are unaware that a pregnancy is considered full term at any point beyond 36 week. This "something undesirable" she removed is not a clump of cells or a weird, blobby-looking alien. This is a full term, viable baby. This woman has already been "burdened" for 9 months- labor could come at any second of any day at this point. This was senseless. And your "raped 13 year old daughter" scenario has absolutely nothing to do with the case in the OP. I suspect you know this, as I know you are an intelligent person.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Why would you deny life to an innocent child within her?

The girl can be supported through the pregnancy, given love and counseling, justice can be sought, and the baby can be given to a good family.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

James, perhaps you are unaware that a pregnancy is considered full term at any point beyond 36 week. This "something undesirable" she removed is not a clump of cells or a weird, blobby-looking alien. This is a full term, viable baby.

Yeah, this is not the case of aborting a first-trimester fetus. The difference between a 39-week pregnancy and a newborn is location.

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

Yes, but when you believe in God you understand things differently. I say this as a father of three daughters. I would never under any circumstances counsel one of my daughters to have an abortion. All life is in God's hands and is not ours to take. I pray that my daughters would never have to be in such a position as you describe, but if something bad happened to them, an abortion on top of that would only become a greater burden upon their soul, and I too would then have my soul burdened as an accomplice to murder.

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Would you really want your 13 year old daughter to be complicit in murder? Why add the trauma of killing her own baby, to the trauma she has already suffered as the result of rape?

Oh, and btw, the VAST majority of abortions are not performed for the sake of rape/incest/life of the mother. The vast majority are performed as back up birth control.

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You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Would you really want your 13 year old daughter to be complicit in murder? Why add the trauma of killing her own baby, to the trauma she has already suffered as the result of rape?

Oh, and btw, the VAST majority of abortions are not performed for the sake of rape/incest/life of the mother. The vast majority are performed as back up birth control.

And to prevent the horrible shame and societal scandal over unwed pregnancies...oh wait.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?