alpha wrote:Ajaan Sumedho gives "pointing out" instructions every time but he doesnt give Direct Transmission of his state in an experiantial way.So the question is if he can impart his state to those who listen to him.Pointing out instructions are not enough.

Sorry to jump in like this.

Pointing-out instruction and direct introduction are exactly the same thing. The Guru never "impart his state" in the students, they recognize their own natural state. Nothing is really transmitted.

/magnus

The way i understand it is that Direct Transmission is based on the principle of the mirror.The Guru who transmits acts as a secondary cause through which we discover our own state.Through the physical guru we discover our reflected guru and the inseparability of this reflection with our own condition.

If you want, there is nothing transmitted or imparted, but his presence and knowledge in front of our mind mirror is indispensable.

For me , pointing out instructions are the the oral commentary a master gives on the knowledge related to our real condition and Direct Transmission is the method where our state is unmistakeably and directly introduced via pleasure, emptiness or clarity.

Luke wrote:I have been practicing Vajrayana for about five years: 2 years with one lama and then 3 years with another lama I had a stronger connection with. I had some good experiences with both groups and I learned a lot, but somehow my heart is no longer in my Vajrayana practice. I don't practice ngondro anymore: not because I find it "boring"--no, I find ngondro to be as interesting as any other tantric meditation--but simply because my heart is no longer in it.

I like my lama, but I don't have unshakeable faith in him. I like some Tibetan things, but I am not as fascinated by Tibetan culture as many other Tibetan Buddhists are. I have no interest in going to empowerments anymore (although I'm happy to have received the ones I did receive in the past).

I am beginning to think that the more direct style of Zen might be a better fit for my personality.

Have any of you tried Vajrayana, but then decided that it wasn't for you?

I left Vajrayana a little while now and I have grown as I had to deeper and deeper.Feelings have great truth value, mine was clear that I have done what was needed in these teachings.

I don't mean these as a pill to swallow, but as another perspective --of one of the great Dzogchen masters of our age, an incarnation of Longchenpa-- to consider in your search.

Here are a couple relevant excerpts that may be of interest:

Even though a root circumstance such as a seed exists, in order for its potential to become enlivened, it is necessary to depend on the contributing circumstances of fertilizer, warmth, water, and light. By depending on positive contributing circumstances such as listening to the Buddha’s teachings and praying to the Triple Gems, the root circumstance of Buddha-nature is revealed. Because mind is continuous, it is better to choose good habits that create positive contributing circumstances rather than to choose bad habits. That’s what practicing means.

Can you give up the belief in your own limited mind without the help of the guru?If dualistic mind exists, how can it be given up? Unless one practices and meditates with a guide to enlightenment in a proper way, there is no method to give it up.

How can one give up one’s limited mind by oneself? Giving up dualistic mind is not like throwing away garbage, or as easy as just saying it from your lips. Even if you say it from your lips, since it is there, your grasping mind is not going to give it up.. Since dualistic mind has existed for countless lives, beings obviously have not had any power to give it up. That is why grasping mind exists, which continuously causes suffering.

If the guru is given up as a positive object, one cannot be liberated because one creates countless negative phenomena, which one then has no way to change toward positive phenomena. Logically, without being introduced to one’s Buddha-nature by sublime teachers and depending on their guidance, Buddha-nature cannot blossom.

Many Westerners ask why it is necessary to depend on a guide to enlightenment and to accumulate merit, since one’s own mind already has Buddha-nature. They think that they can recognize their Buddha-nature themselves and do not need to depend on a guru or teacher, but this is a misinterpretation. They don’t recognize that they are continuously remaining in ignorance, and that this idea will keep them closed in the dullness of darkness rather than let them open to light.

Is this resistance to surrender particular to our modern and scientific times?Some modern people have this reluctance and resistance. Even though they don’t surrender in a spiritual way, they continuously surrender to their own wrong points of view, which prevents their enlightenment and interferes with even this life’s positive energy. As everyone knows, science is not always positive.

How many lives were lost from nuclear weapons, and how much energy was lost that could have gone toward the development of countries instead of their destruction? It is unnecessary to believe in developing only in a scientific way. It is also unnecessary to be against the idea of a spiritual path, because those who follow a spiritual path and develop spiritual qualities can help to create peace in the world.

Spiritual surrender is beneficial both materially and immaterially, at temporary and ultimate levels. There is a very big difference between the benefit of surrendering only to a reverse point of view and surrendering to sublime beings.

It is a mistake to think, as some people do, that there is more freedom if they surrender only to a nonspiritual point of view for their entire lives. This only makes them more and more bound, because there is no method to reach actual freedom. If one surrenders at a spiritual level as in ancient times, it always releases one from being bound.

In the West these days, though they have good intentions, parents’ main advice to children is:” You must be strong. You must have self-esteem. You must not lose your hold on yourself. You must stand on your own feet. Don’t depend on others.” Even at a worldly level, people naturally surrender to others, although they may think of themselves as self-sufficient.

If someone thinks he doesn’t depend on others, he is like a sick person who thinks he doesn’t have to go to a doctor because he can cure himself with poison, or like a poor person who says he doesn’t have to depend on richer people even though he has an empty wallet. Schoolteachers teach that being strong means not relying on others and being independent.

These are nihilist teachings that create the habit of being afraid of spiritual surrender to the Buddha or to the teacher because of being afraid of losing one’s self to God, or the Buddha, or the teacher, or any sublime being—but what self? Modern people are afraid of losing their own ordinary egos. What else do they have to lose but that?

When they refer to books and say, “See, we have our own Buddha-nature so we don’t have to depend on anyone else,” this is not proof of their realization. It is nihilist fear. Relying on someone else makes them think they are losing their identity, which is just their ordinary ego.

But the problem with preserving ordinary ego is that it makes people feel more and more fear and frustration. Because they don’t believe in anything, they do not have any method to purify this fear and frustration. That’s why it is so dangerous to make the misinterpretation that nothing needs to be done to recognize Buddha-nature, since it keeps people in the position of not knowing how to release themselves from suffering through developing the skillful means of spiritual methods that encourage its recognition.

Many people in the West now advocate depending on the collective wisdom of the sangha more, and diminishing the role of the teacher.Westerners always like to create something new, whether or not it is beneficial. Doubt and cynicism are deep nihilist habits. Some people are hastily attracted to this kind of idea from their habit to revolt.

These people have a distorted idea of freedom, just as some people do who always think the government is suppressing them. they feel more comfortable being with normal, casual friends, girlfriends or boyfriends, instead of having to respect and worship a teacher. But this does not have anything to do with a pure spiritual level, including the intention to give up the ego in order to attain enlightenment.

Actually, whoever has this resistance habit or power-struggle habit is forgetting that a girlfriend can revolt against her boyfriend or a boyfriend can revolt against his girlfriend. Even members of a sangha who try to depend on their collective non-wisdom can be uncomfortable with each other directly or indirectly because of their own habit of negative reactions to others and being against others.

If they react negatively to teachers through reading and hearing that they should always respect them, it is sure that they will have collective negativity among themselves over the same issues of power, ego, and rebellion. Although they turn to a sangha, it does not mean their negative reactions to others are finished.

As everyone knows from the news, sometimes a girlfriend or wife has killed her boyfriend or husband, or a boyfriend or husband has killed his girlfriend or wife. Whoever has the habit of negative reaction, opposition, paranoia, and fear will not be able to release it by turning against teachers, even if they talk about the collective wisdom of the sangha. Because of their self-righteous egos, these people don’t want to respect teachers and gurus.

This attitude is endorsed by a society that has taught them not to respect others above themselves, but they must know that this is a sign of their fear. Their fear of losing themselves through respecting and worshiping a teacher means they don’t have a strong spiritual level of awareness.

And:

"There have been negative experiences with teachers of all the Buddhist traditions, which have created doubt and cynicism. Doubt and cynicism are deep nihilist habits. They are not wonderful signs. Of course, I have heard stories many times about Westerners who have turned against and discarded their teachers, even though they have already taken refuge in them until they attain enlightenment, just as though they were squeezing out some toothpaste and then were throwing away the tube. They are foolish to think they have finished using the teacher and so can recant what they said they believed, because the spiritual qualities of a wisdom teacher are not like toothpaste and are not going to finish.

It is true that there is doubt and cynicism due to negative experiences, but that does not mean that these negative experiences come from a teacher or that a teacher is a false teacher. Whoever sees a wisdom teacher with doubt and cynicism through the distortion of his own personal negativity is a nihilist and does not have a spiritual view.

According to Buddhist tradition, one must introspect about whatever one sees in order to purify negative conception and increase positive phenomena to attain enlightenment. Whatever arises within one’s own mind, one has to look at one’s own mind and practice to diminish one’s own negativity rather than trying to diminish the role of the teacher.

That is spiritual. Whatever seems to be caused from outside of themselves is just a reflection of their own minds. these Westerners think that all that is negative or positive is only caused from outside of themselves. they materialize and externalize their experiences, never understanding the connection between outer and inner phenomena or interdependent phenomena, looking for explanations only from objects through extreme nihilist habit instead of from the subjective experience of their own minds.

That is why there is a problem for Westerners following actual Buddhist tradition. Because Westerners are often occupied with the habit of extroversion, they think spiritual qualities are supposed to be shown obviously and can only appear in particular aspects that fit their preconceptions.

Therefore everything is misjudged through lack of introspection and meditation, and they do not see the teacher as pure or dharma as pure due to projections of their own impure habit. This self-distorted perspective makes it difficult for them to increase spiritual qualities through the development of pure phenomena that can connect to actual wisdom.

"

I should also probably listen to my lama's audio teachings again to see if anything new resonates with me before I call it quits with him. This seems reasonable to me at least.

Yes, and of course at least discuss this with him directly. If he is an authentic guide he will respond exactly as needed.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

alpha wrote:Ajaan Sumedho gives "pointing out" instructions every time but he doesnt give Direct Transmission of his state in an experiantial way.So the question is if he can impart his state to those who listen to him.Pointing out instructions are not enough.

Sorry to jump in like this.

Pointing-out instruction and direct introduction are exactly the same thing. The Guru never "impart his state" in the students, they recognize their own natural state. Nothing is really transmitted.

/magnus

The way i understand it is that Direct Transmission is based on the principle of the mirror.The Guru who transmits acts as a secondary cause through which we discover our own state.Through the physical guru we discover our reflected guru and the inseparability of this reflection with our own condition.

If you want, there is nothing transmitted or imparted, but his presence and knowledge in front of our mind mirror is indispensable.

For me , pointing out instructions are the the oral commentary a master gives on the knowledge related to our real condition and Direct Transmission is the method where our state is unmistakeably and directly introduced via pleasure, emptiness or clarity.

Well, it isn't like that. There is no difference between pointing-out and direct introduction. Using a sandal, a visualization, a word, a sensation or whatever is all the same in being a method to cut through mind to the nature of mind (or the natural state in Dzogchen).

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

heart wrote:Well, it isn't like that. There is no difference between pointing-out and direct introduction. Using a sandal, a visualization, a word, a sensation or whatever is all the same in being a method to cut through mind to the nature of mind (or the natural state in Dzogchen).

/magnus

In that case one needn't attend or make and effort to attend the direct transmission CNNr gives, for example, 3 times a year since by your reasoning whatever he teaches is all the same considering what Malcolm once said that whenever CNNR teaches he always gives pointing out instructions.Therefore just attending a nonspecific webcast with rinpoche one would receive pointing out and direct transmission in the same time.

I need to get more clarification on this aspect since one is specifically advised that apart from attending webcasts one should make an effort to receive one of the 3 direct transmissions given throughout the year.

heart wrote:Well, it isn't like that. There is no difference between pointing-out and direct introduction. Using a sandal, a visualization, a word, a sensation or whatever is all the same in being a method to cut through mind to the nature of mind (or the natural state in Dzogchen).

/magnus

In that case one needn't attend or make and effort to attend the direct transmission CNNr gives, for example, 3 times a year since by your reasoning whatever he teaches is all the same considering what Malcolm once said that whenever CNNR teaches he always gives pointing out instructions.Therefore just attending a nonspecific webcast with rinpoche one would receive pointing out and direct transmission in the same time.

I need to get more clarification on this aspect since one is specifically advised that apart from attending webcasts one should make an effort to receive one of the 3 direct transmissions given throughout the year.

Once you recognized your natural state your natural trust and confidence in your Guru make all the teachings he give becomes instructions on how to recognize the natural state, decide on it and gain confidence in self-liberation. After all this is the ultimate meaning of Dharma. If you still have some doubts about the natural state it even more important to attend every possibility to get direct introduction/pointing-out whenever it happens, during teaching or in a more formal way.

Sorry for highjacking this thread!

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

alpha wrote:I need to get more clarification on this aspect since one is specifically advised that apart from attending webcasts one should make an effort to receive one of the 3 direct transmissions given throughout the year.

This is the first time I've heard of this. And it's a bit ironic for me since I always give the opposite advice haha. Really those three are a kind of remnants from the time before webcasts. Not some kind of different transmission.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.- Shabkar

I agree with Greg (That's twice today!) looking over your posts it is obvious, to any semi serious practitioner, that you don't have a clue about Vajrayana generally and Dzogchen specifically.

Don't get me wrong, I know you think you do, that's not disputed, but to anyone who has received teachings and sincerely practiced under an authentic teacher in an authentic lineage, it is as plain as the nose on your face that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The truth of the matter is you are a fantasist, which can be harmless at first, but when it gets to the point where you are dispensing advice on Trekcho and freely commenting about how profound your experience of Togal is, then I'm sorry, but my bullshit-o-meter goes into overdrive.

To anyone who has received teachings and practiced such things, it is obvious that there is no real substance to your experiences...they are not convincing. Wake up and let go of all this fantastical nonsense.

I am sure I will receive either no reply or some comment about how I only understand from an Intellectual or theoretical sense, and how I don't see things from your 'experiential PoV'...or some other such drivel. Save it.

Salomon wrote:I left Vajrayana a little while now and I have grown as I had to deeper and deeper.Feelings have great truth value, mine was clear that I have done what was needed in these teachings.

You were never "in" the Vajrayana.

I think so lol, I wasn't sure of this "Vajrayana", I may be confused with something else. Can you give me a definition of it?It was quite a long time now that I forgot words of Buddhism.

Unless you mean something else negative.

Comment for above: It was all experiential to me, Dzogchen I knew it from the depth of insights and knowledge available and I learnt from the presence of Teachers too.

Just wanting to say something. Dzogchen and Padmasambhava have a deeper respect from me now, I come to see something valuable through meditation that I recognized in my previous experience with them. I know now that the Rainbow Body is the ultimate achievement through the physical but not the deepest us.

Salomon wrote:Just wanting to say something. Dzogchen and Padmasambhava have a deeper respect from me now, I come to see something valuable through meditation that I recognized in my previous experience with them. I know now that the Rainbow Body is the ultimate achievement through the physical but not the deepest us.

Ohhh....dear god....Eventually , eventually...

I thought it would never happen.What did dzogchen and padamsambava do that they eventually managed to earn your respect?

Salomon wrote:Just wanting to say something. Dzogchen and Padmasambhava have a deeper respect from me now, I come to see something valuable through meditation that I recognized in my previous experience with them. I know now that the Rainbow Body is the ultimate achievement through the physical but not the deepest us.

Ohhh....dear god....Eventually , eventually...

I thought it would never happen.What did dzogchen and padamsambava do that they eventually managed to earn your respect?

They already got my respect before but I have found much deeper insights from one or two guy, I don't know if I can mention them.So I began to forget Dzogchen and Padmasambhava but it was not his fault, it is because we haven't him here able to share his deepness and amazing meditativeness from what I feel when I focus on him. We have not Teachers and maybe clear writting for us to appreciate Padmasambhava realizations as it deserves it.

I knew that he wasn't common but because of this of what I said then I just forgot him and focused on those able to bring me deeper.

It has been only when I went beyond those able to give me deeper insights that I had some valuable realizations related to Rainbow Body and Padmasambhava accomplishment through pictures, visible and understandable for sensitive people.

Yes for me, the two guys who gave precious insights and realizations to Garab Dorje and Padmasambhava are those in whom I feel great respect because I sense that they have come to where they are through natural meditation, it has not been only "choosen one" where it is more about being gifted than earning through naturalness meditation which is quite different but bring you to higher capacity of self-sufficientness.

Salomon wrote:I think so lol, I wasn't sure of this "Vajrayana", I may be confused with something else. Can you give me a definition of it?It was quite a long time now that I forgot words of Buddhism.

You have a (Vajrayana) guru, they give you a (Vajrayana) practice and then you leave the guru and stop doing the practice. In Vajrayana, out of Vajrayana.

That's pretty clear isn't it?

Oh I see where you want to lead your definition of Vajrayana. This is a stupid definition my friend, wherever this is coming from because whatever Truth is, you don't need anyone or any requirement to find it my friend if you are still a friend until this point.

I have known the essence of Dzogchen or Vajrayana, that I am not sure or too lazy to find out your understanding of this word, from the depth of my experience that I have found completely resonating with this teaching. Then I could refine this realization with further accomplishment through the Presence of Chogyal and his son mainly.

So whatever Chogyal and his son has realized fundamentally without any power trip realization that doesn't go the point and without the subtle power techniques that may bring you to Rainbow Body or nearer through special knowledge, I realized it. I don't care about specific power, they don't bring you to the ultimate, they are just there for children to have fun.

Dzogchen has been brought to me naturally through the discovery of the Heart. I may even say that I have far more experienced Vajrayana than you have been. You think receiving transmission and practice from a Guru will make you an experiencer of Vajrayana? It is only the beginning, only accomplishment and realization will make you begin to be part of it. Transmission takes a long time and openness, Practice is not necessary but useful.

Salomon wrote:I think so lol, I wasn't sure of this "Vajrayana", I may be confused with something else. Can you give me a definition of it?It was quite a long time now that I forgot words of Buddhism.

You have a (Vajrayana) guru, they give you a (Vajrayana) practice and then you leave the guru and stop doing the practice. In Vajrayana, out of Vajrayana.

That's pretty clear isn't it?

Oh I see where you want to lead your definition of Vajrayana. This is a stupid definition my friend, wherever this is coming from because whatever Truth is, you don't need anyone or any requirement to find it my friend if you are still a friend until this point.

I have known the essence of Dzogchen or Vajrayana, that I am not sure or too lazy to find out your understanding of this word, from the depth of my experience that I have found completely resonating with this teaching. Then I could refine this realization with further accomplishment through the Presence of Chogyal and his son mainly.

So whatever Chogyal and his son has realized fundamentally without any power trip realization that doesn't go the point and without the subtle power techniques that may bring you to Rainbow Body or nearer through special knowledge, I realized it. I don't care about specific power, they don't bring you to the ultimate, they are just there for children to have fun.

Dzogchen has been brought to me naturally through the discovery of the Heart. I may even say that I have far more experienced Vajrayana than you have been. You think receiving transmission and practice from a Guru will make you an experiencer of Vajrayana? It is only the beginning, only accomplishment and realization will make you begin to be part of it. Transmission takes a long time and openness, Practice is not necessary but useful.

This is utter gibberish.... It means nothing, it has no substance, or basis in your actual experience. You are fooling no one. I actually thought you were a fantasist, but I am beginning to think you are just a liar.

You know nothing whatsoever about Dzogchen, one needs only to read over your many nonsense filled posts to see this... You call it Dzogchen, but really it's just your concepts and delusion. No one agrees with you, yet you still maintain your bs. So it's just you who gets it? You are experiencing signs of rainbow body after a week of sitting on your arse fantasising?! Do us all a favour and have a day off... No one buys it... And if you do you need serious help.

It's like a child trying to convince adults they have super powers... With the child believing they are convincing them but really to the grown ups it is obviously a fantasy.