Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.10
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20
Q. In other words, literally true but, as a matter of
reality, a false declaration. Do you agree?
A. Yes, but no attempt had been made to conceal the fact that
I had those glass plates. In Munich, for example, I took
them into the printing room in the basement, showed them
to the staff there, had them properly printed by the staff
there. While I was in Munich I then had two of the
pages -- I am sorry, do I have your attention?
Q. Yes. Sorry.
A. While I was in Munich I had two of pages sent upstairs to
the Institute and asked them: Will you please verify
these pages I have obtained from Moscow. I also
simultaneously sent two pages to the German Federal
archives in Koblenz and asked them to verify the
handwriting as well. So I made not the slightest attempt
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to conceal that I had those plates.
Q. Except from the Russians?
A. Except from Russians.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: What Tatiana's response when you revealed
that you had actually removed them from the archive?
A. I then wrote the declaration, my Lord, saying that
everything that had been removed the archives, using, so
to speak, the passive voice, was back and that nothing was missing.
Q. But was she shocked and horrified? That is what I am
really getting at.
A. No, because, of course, they had allowed my to. They knew
perfectly well they had allowed me to take plates out as
well. So when I gave her that statement which was really
the statement she was asking for, and if you read on, my
Lord -- I am not sure if it is continued -- she then told
me a few minutes later at 2.05 p.m. that they were most
grateful for this, as this was an allegation that had come
from Munich. In other words, my rivals had ratted on me
and had sent a fax to Moscow saying, "He has got some of
the plates".
MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I believe his Lordship may not have
quite got the whole of the picture. One plate was removed
and hidden for overnight?
A. Yes.
Q. Taken overnight and put back. You did not have permission
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for that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have permission to take two plates which were
later replaced?
A. Two and two. They gave us permission to take two and
two,
so we took out four plates with permission.
Q. Yes, they did not give you permission to take plates
back
to England for testing?
A. No.
Q. And Tatiana never knew about the first plate and she
never
knew (because you did not tell her) about the trip
those
plates made to England and back?
A. No.
Q. Right, thank you.
A. But all this, of course, is the subject of a formal
written admission which I made to you in this case
over a
year ago. So we could have spared a lot of this time.
Q. I am grateful.
A. It is not really material in the issue anyway, in my
submission.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, are you aware of serious
concern
in archival circles that you might have significantly
damaged the plates when you had them copied without
archival permission?
A. This is the allegation made in the book. We are not
going
to be able to test that allegation because we will not
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have the chance of -- I have not seen any evidence put
in
to that effect.
Q. I am asking you whether you are aware of any?
A. No, I am not aware of it, my Lord. We now hear that
the
Russian archivists are not going to be called either.
So
it is going to be very difficult to establish the
truth of
that allegation.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see the force of that.
A. But I shall try to lead evidence when my time comes to
the
effect that I have benefited the community of
historians
rather than having disadvantaged them.
MR RAMPTON: My Lord, for the moment at least, until we get
back, if we do, to right-wing extremism perhaps next
week,
that concludes my cross-examination at the moment.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you because it is
something
that went through my mind in fact this morning about
Dresden?
MR RAMPTON: Yes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: The position on Dresden is that there is
quite a lot of material on it.
MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is all in that file.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We really spent, I am probably
wrong
about this, but it seemed to me that we really spent
most
of the time on Tagesbefehl 47. There is a good deal
more
and I just wondered again what the position in
relation to
Professor Evans' other points on Dresden is.
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MR RAMPTON: Well, again, if Mr Irving wishes to challenge
Professor Evans, that no doubt will be flooding back
into
the arena. For my part, again, one has to make
judgments
in a case of this magnitude.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I quite understand.
MR RAMPTON: Or we are going to be here for ever. I am, I
am
afraid, not one of those advocates who takes every
point
under the sun in the hope that something will come
out.
If there are points on Evans' report that I have not
taken, it is because I have made a deliberate decision
not
to.
A. I shall certainly be cross-examining Evans on matters
relating to Dresden and putting documents to him.
MR RAMPTON: Might I enquire, before I sit down, through
your
Lordship of Mr Irving how long he expects that his
cross-examination of Professor Evans might be?
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Evans or Browning?
MR RAMPTON: Evans. Both actually, because I need to
schedule
both of them.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to go back to your other
role?
< (The witness stood down)
MR IRVING: I now wear my other hat and say that, in view
of
the revelation today that the defence are not
proposing to
call Professors Levin and Eatwell, a lot of the
cross-examination that would have fallen on them will
now
fall on Professor Evans, who relied in part on their
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expert reports.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are perfectly entitled to cross-
examine
any of the experts on anything subject to their
entitlement to say, "I have not a clue and I do not
know
about that".
MR IRVING: I can only do that of course if they are
present.
I do not propose to subpoena them because I do not
suppose
that would have much point.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: You cannot do that for all sorts of
reasons
but there is no reason why you should not cross-
examine
Professor Evans about what is said in the other
experts'
reports that I am aware of anyway.
MR IRVING: I can put to Professor Evans the documents that
I would have been putting to Professors Levin or
Eatwell.
It is an unsatisfactory state of affairs but it also
means
inevitably that Professor Evans had better check into
a
hotel for some length of time.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we take them one at a time?
Browning
we have on Monday. His report is quite short, which
is a
virtue.
MR IRVING: Browning has many enemies around the world who
have
been funding me with material with which to challenge
him.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is the challenge going to take?
MR IRVING: Two days for Professor Browning, I think.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is Monday and Tuesday. Then Evans
next?
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MR IRVING: Yes. February 7th we have probably half an
hour or
one hour of Sir John Kegan.
MR RAMPTON: Maybe Mr Irving would like to take Sir John
Kegan
first before we start on Browning?
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would think that is better.
MR IRVING: That would make far more sense.
MR RAMPTON: Browning for two days, which brings us to the
end
of Tuesday, perhaps the beginning of Wednesday. Then
Mr Irving's day or whatever he needs to prepare, which
would be Wednesday.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Start Professor Evans on Thursday.
MR RAMPTON: I would provisionally schedule Professor Evans
for
Thursday. That also has, from Mr Irving's point of
view,
the convenience that he then has three days off if he
is a
bit behind in prep, as some of us sometimes are, to
get
the ball rolling again on the following Monday.
MR IRVING: That is quite right. It sounds admirable.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: What you have not yet answered is the
enquiry
about how long you are likely to cross-examine
Professor
Evans for?
MR IRVING: I shall have to reschedule my thinking on that
because I shall have now to go through my two filing
cabinet drawers full of stuff that I was going to use
against the other two and put it into the Evans slot.
So
it will be, I would say, probably four days.
MR RAMPTON: That is very helpful. That takes us to
Wednesday
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16th, I think. A day off will be the Thursday but, if
I
schedule Dr Longerich for Friday 18th, there is a risk
that he will not be needed because Professor Evans
does
not finish until Thursday.
MR IRVING: Longerich is based in England, is he not?
MR RAMPTON: He is partly based in England and partly in
Munich. If your Lordship would like me to, I will
provisionally schedule him for Friday 18th, subject to
Thursday being a clear day. If it is not, then we can
bring him on Monday of the following week.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is kind of the last in the band
anyway.
MR RAMPTON: He is the most flexible.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is the last too, is he not?
MR RAMPTON: No. There is Professor Funke, the Berlin
political scientist.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We have it mapped out for a
sufficient
period of time to enable plans to be made.
MR RAMPTON: Yes we have.
MR RAMPTON: Yes certainly.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: So what now?
MR RAMPTON: I am bit sterile about ideas because I do not
have
further questions on anything else.
MR IRVING: You are not going to cross-examine on the
Adjutants?
MR RAMPTON: No. I think probably I am not going to.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say probably, it is getting
towards
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the time when it has to be certain.
MR RAMPTON: If I say I am not going to examine on the
Adjutants and then I come back next week and say, Oh,
I would like to cross-examine on the Adjutants, I
foresee
a problem. I prefer to leave it in the air, although
the
air in that particular balloon, if I do not do it now,
is
probably going to be fairly restricted. Can I put it
like
that?
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think that is right really.
MR RAMPTON: I well understand the problem.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know you have had quite a task too.
MR RAMPTON: If I do not take the opportunity now I may
have a
problem, I well understand, in trying to find another
way.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not going to make a ruling one way
or
the other at the moment.
MR RAMPTON: I am grateful for that.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it is a bad thing from
Mr Irving's point of view or, to be honest, from my
point
of view if we have a short day today because I have
fallen
a bit behind, too.
MR RAMPTON: I am not only slightly behind, I am, like
Mr Irving and no doubt your Lordship, quite tired as
well
so I would not at all mind.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, does it not really suit you
quite
well that we should have a short day?
MR IRVING: It does indeed, my Lord. I have a business to run
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and a family to run.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. So what it comes to is 10.30 on
Monday.
MR RAMPTON: I am grateful.
(Adjourned until 10.30 on Monday, 7th February 2000)
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