Wednesday, November 7, 2012

So, regardless of how the vote went, the result of this election was, sadly, going to be...

...a destruction of our Constitutional rights.

But, it's done and over. Now, we sit back and watch our country crumble. Don't agree it will? Why not? Think Here's the time for some good, even heated, discussion about it all and it not be on Facebook. I know I can't be the only one holding back there in order to keep a little peace with family and friends. :-) So, who is happy about Obama winning? Why? Who isn't? Why? Did anything pass in your state that you agree or disagree with and want to discuss? Go for it. And please, check all your damn political correctness at the door, grab some balls to strap on and just let it out. what better place than here?

198
comments:

Sonic
said...

New electoral system. Past time. One citizen, one vote.

My constitutional rights are a little beat up, but not because of the election. That's been going on for 50+ years.

I'm happy with several outcomes from last night. Gay marriage in new places; legal pot in some places; the first openly gay woman in the Senate; rape apologists out; Obama! I have reservations about him, but I'm optimistic too. I think he holds a vision of what we could be, even though we're so far from that. Romney's vision had more to do with illusion, and his bank accounts (here and overseas). It was interesting listening to the GOP pundits last night; they were united in their realization that the GOP is affected by evolution as surely as any of us. Adapt or die.

My state failed to pass a more relaxed marijuana law, which was probably a poorly written law anyway. We'll try it again and do better.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around Recreational Marijuana being legalized in my state. I see the pros and cons, but as a parent, it makes my gut clench. On the homefront, it has led to long discussions with my teen. Will be interesting to see what impact it has in reality.

My state successfully staved off an attempt to limit marriage and to require voter i.d. by making each item a constitutional amendment. Previously they tried to pass laws doing the same things, which failed. I agree, in part because the constitution (even though we are talking about the state constitution) is not a place to limit rights, but a place to preserve rights.

Would you folks who think the country is going to hell in a hand basket/not what it was (should be?) be willing to be more specific? I'm 61, and I am more optimistic about the future than I've been for a long time. I'm always surprised when people feel so strongly so far in the other direction. What's hurting you so much? I ask sincerely, I'd like to understand.

"I'm happy with several outcomes from last night. Gay marriage in new places; legal pot in some places; the first openly gay woman in the Senate; rape apologists out; Obama!"

I was right with you until "Obama", although, as I have said, if someone forced me to pick between him and Romney, I'd have picked Obama simply because I sort of have an idea of what I'd be getting based on past experience. I find that slightly less scary than the unknown, I suppose.

"I have reservations about him, but I'm optimistic too. I think he holds a vision of what we could be, even though we're so far from that."

Hmmm. Well, maybe. I will say, I think his intent is good and I know a few are shocked to hear me say that and maybe a more apt assessment is that compared to Romney, I think Obama's intent is better. His ideas, though, are impossible to work and I truly do not get the fact he is a bigger war-monger than Bush and I really didn't think that would be possible.

"Romney's vision had more to do with illusion, and his bank accounts (here and overseas). It was interesting listening to the GOP pundits last night; they were united in their realization that the GOP is affected by evolution as surely as any of us. Adapt or die."

The Republicans have had a hard wake-up call here, but one they sorely needed if Romney was the choice they truly felt best. Because really? *Romney?

"My state failed to pass a more relaxed marijuana law, which was probably a poorly written law anyway. We'll try it again and do better."

Shit, Florida doesn't even try at this stuff. We voted on a ton of amendments to our state constitution, the mot radical of which was to allow government funding for abortion. I voted no, which actually was to allow funding because that's how Florida rocks the ballot phrasing, and most everyone I knew was stunned I voted to allow government funding for anything. :-D Weirdly, it passed, too. If you look at how Florida voted on the amendments, it was straight NOs. *sighs*

" I see the pros and cons, but as a parent, it makes my gut clench."

I do get that, Kaytie, but in the end, the harsh reality is that if kids want to smoke pot, they're going to. It's easily available, cheap and still illegal if they're under 21 in your state.

"I agree, in part because the constitution (even though we are talking about the state constitution) is not a place to limit rights, but a place to preserve rights."

You're exactly right, imo, and kudos to your state for passing these. I admit, it still makes me sad that things like marriage, which should be a civil right, even have to be voted on so these wins are somewhat bittersweet. The idea that I have to hope my fellow citizens give me the right to legally marry whoever I want is still degrading, no matter how you look at it but it's still something. I'd surely take it, if Florida ever offered it.

"But the last two mornings I have wept as I woke up. I am 54. The America I grew up in is going, going, gone."

It is, yes...I'll be 50 this year but I find some of the changes to be good ones. Which ones are you referring to that have caused you to weep?

"Would you folks who think the country is going to hell in a hand basket/not what it was (should be?) be willing to be more specific?"

Lordy, Sonic, I just don't know where to start. I guess the place best is speak of government regulation and interference, the newest of which is Obamacare. And then, this warmongering in the Middle east...gah. Racial issues are once again rearing their ugly heads and in multiple directions. Don't get me wrong...in no way do I think a Romney win would have helped but Obama is leading down a very ugly path and I can't quite figure out what his end goal is. I have a suspicion and it's remote but possible...if I'm right, I might feel better about him despite the hardships it will cause but once again, I'd probably be in the minority. But taking one thing only...Obamacare...it will be the downfall of our already shaky economic system.

I think that this was the election that may change things. I sincerely hope that people will stop being so afraid of third and fourth party candidates. It DOES NOT have to be a Republican or a Democrat and quite frankly I am done with both!!! Nobody seems to get that they tell the same lies. The are the same but it is a school yard brawl where you have to be on one side or the other and that is the only choice you have.

Oregon did not pass the pot measure and that makes me sad. I would so much rather see weed be decriminalized then to keep seeing jail space and tax dollars hard at work keeping otherwise productive people locked up while real criminals are free on the streets.

Romney scared the shit out of me. I wont lie he had too many ideas and views that made my butthole pucker at the idea of him in control of my constitution. I would rather have Obama and know more of what to expect then someone ass far off as Romney was. The republicans really really should have picked Ron Paul if they had wanted to win.

Lisa I dont think Obamacare will be the downfall....I do however think if we dont do something about US companies sending jobs over seas we are through. There needs to be some sort of tax or levy or something done on those companies to make they not want to send our jobs overseas.

And with that this lazy freeloader who wants everything for nothing has to go to work :)

There's talk here in Oregon of trying to to get something through the legislature next year re marijuana legalization. I really don't see the problem: it'll be regulated exactly the way alcohol is now, and it would bring loads of money into the state coffers, which we desperately need. There's also talk about working toward gay marriage approval too, after our neighbors' success this week.

Romney scared the shit out of me too, largely because he's proved over and over again that he's capable of making really poor choices, and because he wants so badly to put us all in the time machine and zip back to the 1950s. The only part of his personality that shows up consistently is his devotion to his bottom line.

I like the way you put it, Shannon: the election that changes things. It's certainly the election that shows how much things have changed already; it would be great if we embraced that and moved forward. I also think you're right about the third party thing. For me, it's about changing the electoral process altogether; it's past time, and it would open the door to a much more diverse spectrum of political philosophy. That can only be good.

Sonic, what I mean about going to hell in a hand basket is the economy. It sucks and will continue to suck for years to come. There is no magic cure. I don't think Obama is capable of jump starting the economy at all.

The only good thing out of Obamacare: no lifetime insurance caps.

I would have voted for Ron Paul in a heartbeat.

I like what Shannon said about the US companies sending the jobs overseas and those companies being levied/taxed/whatever. Before Americans would not have wanted to work a lot of those jobs but now...I bet there would be long lines of people waiting to make less than minimum wage because their unemployment has run out. Shit, at this point in my life I'd shake the farts out of sheets to earn a dollar.

I've always been fairly frugal but I'm a little tire of trying to stretch one chicken over the course of 3-4 days, ya know.

Sandy, I wish I could agree that Americans would be willing to do the work that they never were willing to do. I live in a farming community and we have our share of unemployed Americans that deem themselves above the menial tasks of farm labor. The result? Many of the farmers around here hire migrant seasonal workers, most of whom are undocumented. And most of them are hired for much less than a wage agreeable to many Americans.

The farmers love it because they really couldn't afford to pay more for the hired help. Not without jacking the prices of the goods they sell.

It's not a simple solution though...because undocumented, illegals SHOULDN'T be allowed to come here and take jobs. But...Americans aren't taking them either. And here's where I get all controversial. Our own, darn entitled attitude is what's killing this country. Why won't Americans take those jobs? Because they feel as though those jobs are "below" them. Because they feel entitled to a better job. Americans feel "entitled" to handouts, healthcare, houses, cars, etc etc etc.

I believe in working for what you have. I'm all for supporting those who CAN'T work, or who have some kind of sudden emergency issue. I'm not, however, for supporting those who make no effort in this life.

AWAGN, I totally get what you are saying. On my street alone are 4 houses that are in foreclosure. All of them were lost because they lost their jobs and could not continue to pay for the mortgage, basic needs, etc. Unemployment ran out, savings ran out. I was close with one of the families. They both would have work ANY job just to put food on the table.

I also agree with that sense of entitlement. I would definitely at this point in my life take on any menial job. Would I like it, probably not. Some money is better than no money.

Sorry, Lisa, I've been a lurker for a while but was only moved to post after the election. I think my sadness has to do with so many things that people have mentioned above. Most of all though, is we are letting our individual rights be whittled away a little bit at a time and nobody seems to care, or they think it's a GOOD thing. (!) I don't know. It's all such a mess. I honestly think I would have been just as sad if the election had gone the other way.

IMO it's a case of the response being way over-the-top in relation to the thing they think they're protesting. It's also a bit ironic: if I'm reading right, most of the states who are gathering signatures depend heavily on federal dollars for a variety of what some people call "entitlements". Those would go away if their state(s) secede. Good luck with that.

A more productive response: get busy working to change the things you think are wrong.

I do. Have you ever really considered the cost? Not that it matters since we're already overdrawn and people don't seem to realize that's what "deficit" means. That wasn't aimed at you, Shannon, by the way. Well, asking if you've considered what it would actually cost was and in addition, have you considered the trickle-down effects?

"I do however think if we dont do something about US companies sending jobs over seas we are through. There needs to be some sort of tax or levy or something done on those companies to make they not want to send our jobs overseas."

Oh, bullshit. Don't punish companies for trying to be as profitable as they can be. Instead, offer them tax breaks to stay and eliminate the minimum wage.

"And with that this lazy freeloader who wants everything for nothing has to go to work :)"

You know some people will think you're lying or, alternately, you're working at trying to get your husband out of prison. ;-)

"I really don't see the problem: it'll be regulated exactly the way alcohol is now, and it would bring loads of money into the state coffers, which we desperately need."

Exactly! It's such a silly argument and I'm still astonished daily over silly little fact like medical marijuana being bad but Oxycontin is allowed. Really? REALLY?

"There's also talk about working toward gay marriage approval too, after our neighbors' success this week."

This? Always makes me happy but for one thing...it's a civil right and as such, should never even have to be granted by other people. It should just *be.

"I don't think Obama is capable of jump starting the economy at all."

No, he's proven that. If nothing else, you can't jumpstart an economy and warmonger at the same time.

"The only good thing out of Obamacare: no lifetime insurance caps."

This is not good, though. It will cause insurance companies to raise rates sky high and even fold. It is also going to raise malpractice rates on doctors.

"I would have voted for Ron Paul in a heartbeat."

Did y'all hear his retirement speech today?

"Before Americans would not have wanted to work a lot of those jobs but now...I bet there would be long lines of people waiting to make less than minimum wage because their unemployment has run out. Shit, at this point in my life I'd shake the farts out of sheets to earn a dollar."

As would I but I really believe we are in the minority. I live in an agricultural area...ever see citrus marked "Indian River Fruit"? I can see (and gah, *smell) that damn river. Groves are still hiring migrant workers, despite our economy being one of the worst in the nation, because local, white people simply won't do the work.

Exactly! Y'all are seeing my liberal side at work tonight, to a degree, but I'm all for opening the borders and anyone who can come in and work, not be a drain on society? Should be welcome. The one thing I will add is the whole deal about becoming an automatic citizen just by being born here? Needs to be changed.

"I'm all for supporting those who CAN'T work, or who have some kind of sudden emergency issue. I'm not, however, for supporting those who make no effort in this life."

Again, I agree. I get that things happen but if you get money (in any form) from taxpayers, you should have to give something by way of a service back, in return. Now, if you're a quadriplegic or are severely mentally retarded or something and have no family, I get that might not be possible but I'm speaking in general terms.

"Sorry for the typos, I'm having arthritis issues in my arm and hand. Some times typing is difficult."

I'm sorry, Sandy. That sucks worse than people sometimes realize.

"Most of all though, is we are letting our individual rights be whittled away a little bit at a time and nobody seems to care, or they think it's a GOOD thing. (!)"

Trust me, I know. It honestly hurts, doesn't it, once you realize what is happening? I know I probably drive my FB friends nuts but I just want people I care about to *see this.

"I don't know. It's all such a mess. I honestly think I would have been just as sad if the election had gone the other way."

Absolutely...it was going to be the same no matter which of these two won. I think of my dad and uncles who fought in WWII and who enlisted, weren't even drafted, and it really does make me cry for them. They'd feel what they did was such a wasted effort if they were still alive.

"So what does everyone think about Texas (and a few other states) sending requests to secede to the Obama administration?"

It's a wasted effort. First off, it's not the *states doing it, which I'd take far more seriously and support, but rather, private individuals within the states. While it sends an interesting message, until the actual *states do it, it's just another form of protest that will go nowhere and that will allow the government to collect more names to violate the privacy of. I passed. Not to mention, let's take Louisiana as an example...let's say the are allowed to secede. And then, let's go with your thought...another Katrina blows through and more levees break. Who the hell will they whine to then? What about all the people on welfare? what are they going to do? Not that I care, particularly, but posing the question.

"A more productive response: get busy working to change the things you think are wrong"

Yep, and speaking out about them...as well as speaking out about what you feel is right.

Related, only not, have y'all read or heard what Israel is doing to the Palestinians? Bastards. How long do you think it'll be before we insert ourselves into that mess, too? I hate Israel. I make no apologies for it.

I'm not about to point fingers at the typos of others. ;-) Sandy, you're right, we are, at least indirectly, already involved. Mark my words...wait...we're going to have a draft start soon. We're going to see signs happen slowly that it's coming, things like a step-up of recruiting and requests for info from high schools.

That started happening in city schools here since 2001, recruitment in high schools, boys and girls.There was talk of drafting up to age 26. Recruiters called my kid and told me I had no right to screen the calls. I said kid was a minor and I had every right.Glad mine grew out of that age, and sorry for anyone who has to go involuntarily. I don't think I'd have survived going to war if I were drafted after h.s.

What the hell is this world coming to! Texas will be it's own country. Wondering if international calling charges will apply there?

Twinkies...the sun will still rise and set if Hostess shuts down. We (those of us that pay taxes, otherwise known as "taxpayers") will pay for the 18,000 who lost their jobs because they felt the need to strike for pennies.

"...doesn't carry a purse .... Lisa will have to check my coat pockets for linty mints."

It's not a trenchcoat, is it? Are you dressed under that thing?

This whole secession thing is fascinating me...it's not even like the actual *states are doing it, it's private individuals within the states, but I find the response to it all just, well, fascinating. People are damn fed up. And poorly informed. The whole Twinkie is beautiful, though...what a massive, well-publicized "fuck you!" to unions and the bullshit they are causing. They were warned repeatedly what would happen if they struck and they felt so all-powerful, they didn't believe it. It does my heart good, but I only wish Hostess could have fired the strikers first, to make getting unemployment harder for them. Sandy's right, now we're going to be stuck with them hanging off the taxpayer teats. I'm mad when I say "teats", too. :-P

What's going on with Walmart?

The guy who owns all the Denny's restaurants in Florida is cutting everyone he can back to under 30 hours *and tacking a 5% surcharge onto all bills, all spelled out clearly, to cover the cost of providing health insurance to his full timers. He says he has to and when asked if he doesn't worry it will cause customers to not come in, he simply said it didn't, he'd close up if he had to. *This is where the government has sorely underestimated the mindset of business, particularly small business...they *will act on principle, even if it means going out of business. You can only push so far and they will close the doors and walk away. It's going to get very ugly.

Lisa, I've been on my soapbox all stinking day. The Twinkie thing has me pissed off to no end. I haven't been very political up until now.

I'm just so sick of all this entitlement crap. More, more, more...sick of it.

"*This is where the government has sorely underestimated the mindset of business, particularly small business...they *will act on principle, even if it means going out of business. You can only push so far and they will close the doors and walk away. It's going to get very ugly."

Walmart...the workers have started walking off the j.o.b. because they will have to start work at 8pm on Thanksgiving. Black Friday is now on Thursday. I understand that it a holiday. My kids and I spent many a holiday with out the husband being home because he had to work them. Get over it. You have a JOB. Why on earth would you do anything that may cause you to lose said JOB.

It's not a necessary Job, though Sandy. It's forcing people to come in to work on a day where people are supposed to be home, giving thanks (to whomever they give thanks to) and spending time with family. The whole, "opening early on Thanksgiving" smacks of corporate greed.

As for Unions...man, I sit on the fence with this one. I regret that there is still a need for them, and will continue to be a need for them, as long as Corporate America operates on a principle of greed. Unfortunately, now what you have is greed on BOTH sides...no longer are Union employees fighting for what's fair and right. They are fighting for more more more (in many cases).

In the case of Hostess...it was a ridiculous move, going on strike, knowing that the company had ALREADY filed for bankruptcy (if I understand this correctly). Why in the world would you go on strike, seeking more money, when the company you work for is clearly already having difficulty paying its bills?

I agree with the corporate greed, however disagree with it's not a necessary job. I'm hoping I'm just reading the not a necessary job part wrong.

It is just plain stupid to do anything to put your job on the line these day. This is what I have a problem with. The Walmart workers are already starting to walk off the job. I'm tired of paying for people's stupid. We now have to pay for 18,000 stupid and probably more if the Walmart dudes walk.

:looks down: Well it might be a trench coat. it has a belt. Hmmm. Think it's my bathrobe. I'm disgusting. And sick. And disgusting. And hungry for Hostess cupcakes and banana flips. No one is talking about the banana flips and I'm pretty ticked about that. I might secede from the human race. Or charge a 5% surcharge. Yeah, that's it, I'll charge a surcharge :-P

"Lisa, I've been on my soapbox all stinking day. The Twinkie thing has me pissed off to no end. I haven't been very political up until now."

It usually takes a single, simple thing to set a person off. Welcome to my world. ;-)

"Walmart...the workers have started walking off the j.o.b. because they will have to start work at 8pm on Thanksgiving. Black Friday is now on Thursday. I understand that it a holiday. My kids and I spent many a holiday with out the husband being home because he had to work them. Get over it. You have a JOB. Why on earth would you do anything that may cause you to lose said JOB."

Oh, for fuck's sake. Seriously? I knew Target workers were talking this shit but I thought Walmart workers would be a bit less...well, picky. Shit, I'll do it. Fire one of them at my local store and give me their job.

"It's not a necessary Job, though Sandy. It's forcing people to come in to work on a day where people are supposed to be home, giving thanks (to whomever they give thanks to) and spending time with family. The whole, "opening early on Thanksgiving" smacks of corporate greed."

That's what corporations are *supposed to do...be greedy. It's the whole point. to bad people forget that and want them to have emotions or something. "Supposed to" by who's rules? Because it's an American tradition to celebrate landing on someone else's land and setting up shop? Have your dinner earlier or later, then...single parents do it all the damn time in split custody, as to many families who have members who are wanted by both sides of the family. We aren't having Thanksgiving dinner on the exact day here this year since Jake won't be home yet and it's no big deal...it's not the day that matters, it's who you're with and the spirit of it. Place thanks on the fact you have a job and respect it, do as it asks. That's the best tribute you can give the day.

"Why in the world would you go on strike, seeking more money, when the company you work for is clearly already having difficulty paying its bills?"

Because unions have been made to feel invincible and all-powerful. This was a good wake-up call.

Lisa, I just told the husband an hour ago that if the Walmart folks start walking, I'm going to fill out an application. Hell I might just get a jumpstart on that one. Maybe Target too since it's 5 minutes from the house.

Yes, actually sick. sheeeeesh that sounded bad when I read back :-))The banana might have been bad stuff, though I was just a kid so wayyyyy back then it might have actually been real food, and tasted good. So I'd never heard until today that Twinkies were originally banana-cream-filled, but during WWII took out the banana. Probably that's why banana flips were born - a twinkie-like cake in a circle, folded in half, with banana cream in the middle. Yum. So is anyone gonna secede with me? It sounds like a good time, dontcha think?

Sandy, that is not a bad idea at all. I'd love to get hired on at my favorite Walmart and tomorrow might be the time to put that application in! Target, too, you're right. Not a bad idea at all, thanks!

*blech* I hate banana-flavored anything.

What, exactly are we going to secede from? The US? Don't get me wrong, I love a good protest move, but I need more details before I agree.

String, even when I was a kid in the 60's, there was this spray on cleaner they used maybe once or twice a week and it smells exactly like fake bananas. I nearly gagged up breakfast on those days, I hated that smell so much.

So, veering offtopic a bit, do we have any Anonymous fans in this place besides me?

I thought we could just get a secession movement going, and then decide what we're seceding from :-DWe didn't have no fancy cleaners in my ghetto school, thank goodness. Do you remember that pink crap they threw on the floor if someone up-chucked?Who/what is this Anonymous you wonder if we are fans of?

"I thought we could just get a secession movement going, and then decide what we're seceding from :-D"

Oh, okay, I'm good with that!

"We didn't have no fancy cleaners in my ghetto school, thank goodness. Do you remember that pink crap they threw on the floor if someone up-chucked?"

They used that on the bus but used sawdust at school. Our principal had sort of a hippie-environmentalist streak in him. He did play great music for us for our morning announcements, though. Desiderata, If I Had A Hammer, Abraham, Martin and John...ah, memories. :-)

"Who/what is this Anonymous you wonder if we are fans of?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_%28group%29 They've taken on Israel, as of last night, just as they warned they would.

Also, if anyone else cares, this link is a live feed of Tel Aviv on the left and Gaza on the right. Sad, sad stuff there last night. http://www.ustream.tv/occupiedair#utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=10016873&utm_medium=social

My school didn't have an intercom, just an old-fashioned phone system with a circular receiver and a box on the wall the teacher spoke into. The teacher could only call the office. The office could call any one room at a time. Yes, I grew up in the 1870s :-D

In high school we had an intercom though. There were morning messages. And whenever there were shots fired, we could laugh at the poor old lady with the shaky voice on the intercom telling us to be calm.

" And whenever there were shots fired, we could laugh at the poor old lady with the shaky voice on the intercom telling us to be calm."

Boy, when the modern world reached y'all, it reached you fast and hard, didn't it? ;-)

So, if no one minds, can we talk about MWOP for a sec? I am so damn bothered by that new opening post they have up. It's obvious Anja's hand is very limited over there now, as I don't believe she'd have ever posted that on the front page. I'm sure the person who wrote it intended well, but it's her *opinion. Since when do posters' opinions get front page billing on MWOP? And for as offended as she is over what Jennifer is doing, I am equally offended by what she does. She can call herself an "aid worker" all day long and I'm certain she does provide some type of "aid" in order to call herself that, but she is, first and foremost, a missionary, which is clear when she speaks of doing "mission work." It takes *such a degree of audacity, of arrogance, to be a missionary as, by their very entrance into a country, they are telling the people of said country their beliefs are not right, not good enough, and God has chosen you to come save the day! Well, and their souls. Seriously, the hypocrisy and judgement of this post on the front page of MWOP is both amusing and disgusting...what a shame.

Yah, sure, Lisa, but you know, between the Viet Nam war, women's rights, civil rights, abortion legalization, etc. etc., we kinda knew the world was changing. When I was in jr high, most high school girls got engaged. When I was in h.s. most went to college.

Taking my own little trip down memory lane now :-))I remember reading about Kennedy sending "advisors" to Nam, in my Weekly Reader, and running home at lunch to tell my mother Kennedy had been shot.I remember my school being set afire mid-winter before MLK was assassinated, and walking with no coat or boots until my father found me and picked me up. I remember my father and many others patrolling the halls the following fall, and being told that the buses outside were only for white kids. I walked home instead. I'm sure my father would have like to kill me :-D and that he was also proud of me. I remember when women teachers were first allowed to wear slacks. And that girls were finally allowed to wear culottes.I remember staying awake while babysitting, to keep track of whether Bobby Kennedy was still alive. And falling asleep and waking to find out he'd died. And that the parents were *still not home.

Lisa, I have to say your comment about MWOP gave me pause. I read and liked the comment on MWOP and agreed with it, but never really thought about the religious slant, which is really odd given how secular I tend to be. I think the tone of the comment wasn't really meant to be religious, so I didn't read it that way. I personally know missionaries who are educated and trained professionals on the mission field (pilots, surgeons, etc), and they're very non-invasive about their religious beliefs, so I don't even think of them as missionaries. However I also know other missionaries who have no reason to be on the mission field except to "save" people, and those are the mission workers I take issue with. For this reason I read the MWOP comment as coming from someone who has experience making non-religious contributions, and I think her observations about Jennifer are correct, whether or not you toss religion into the picture. If you add religion, it makes Jennifer look even worse, in my opinion.

Does all that even make sense? My migraine-y head is not helping with coherence tonight :)

Whatever. To the states wanting to succeed. Yawn. The individuauls clamoring for this are beating their chests and have failed history (if they ever took it).

Sorry. I have no sympathy with whiners in a job that require working holidays. I have been required to work various and most holidays all of my career. Goes with the job. I am not without empathy, though. To those that are asked or required to work holidays, my advise to them is be flexible, make a special day for you and your families, it is not without significance. Be a leader and not a follower. Grace, Honor and Thankfullness are within each of you - it is not a matter of an appointed day.

"For this reason I read the MWOP comment as coming from someone who has experience making non-religious contributions, and I think her observations about Jennifer are correct, whether or not you toss religion into the picture. If you add religion, it makes Jennifer look even worse, in my opinion."

Ann, I get what you mean here and you could be right...I could be overly sensitive, I suppose. That said ,I just don't agree...for me, that comment reads as incredibly self-righteous and judgmental. Look, I get what aid workers do and I get that many are Christian, but this woman is a missionary, first and foremost, and to a non-Christian, that's very clear. She sings her own praises subtly but quite clearly in the post. And please don't think I have issues with Christian missionaries and am judging her based on that. For example, I've read kissesfromkatie.blogspot.com for a very long time now and am in completely in awe of this young woman and what she does. She is a true *Christian missionary, imo. But compare her attitude to that of the woman whose opinion is posted on the front page of MWOP and I think you'll see the difference.

"Does all that even make sense? My migraine-y head is not helping with coherence tonight :)"

Are you feeling better?

"Any more update on Rhys/lia? More lurker on here & mwop but been around since ohih & continue to wonder where that is going..."

I know nothing else...they appear to have just dropped out of sight. That makes me sad, too, but it's nothing any of us can change.

LMAO I was at work this morning to deal with them :) It got really good when people started complaining because they had to wait for their fabric to be cut and it had been hours....arent lines why they go out anyway? Six people can only do much when they are up against dozens of people who all want dozens of different fabrics each.

String, the all chocolate Swiss Cake Rolls aren't *so sweet. Are they? In all honesty, I've had maybe 4 Swiss Cake rolls in my life so I'm grasping here.

Kaytie, I have stayed in the house due to being sick over the holiday (booooo!) but I got some good Black Friday sales at Walmart on stuff for myself. Gifts for me...yay! If I think I'm not contagious tomorrow, I am going to Macy's to use a gift card I have on new purses for me and my mom. Cyber Monday is coming up and I'm looking forward to that!

So, catching up on JM, is anyone else really bothered by her dad's lack of dis-avowment to her activities in Africa? I really never thought her dad was any kind of scammer until this trip, but fully recognizing that not everyone in Africa lives in poverty and that she may well have been giving trials of her Xyng products to wealthy locals, that isn't the impression she gave at all. But, even regardless of that, to go on what she stated was a mission trip and to give any mention at *all of Xyng was beyond ugly and wrong. Had I ever done that and my dad was in her dad's place, he'd have chastised me publicly, and fast. The fact her father has not tells me she is a product of how she was raised and her dad is the same kind of opportunist she is. That whole family is feeling like a trashy, scammy bit of work to me. Apples not falling far from the trees and all that.

What Lisa said. :nods: Yep. I remember a couple of years ago having a wake-up moment and realizing that her family does nothing because they approve, either totally, or on some level. She seems like the kind of person who was always told how special she was, and she believed it.

I should blame it on you, String! In reality, I think I got it from someone at Publix. I went the day before Thanksgiving and people shopping there were just disgusting, coughing and hacking and snuffling. Had a bad feeling I'd wind up sick.

I've tried to cut JM's folks some slack because they really can't control what their grown child does but lately I just keep thinking of how my own folks would have reacted with so much and it's impossible for me to think they aren't as bad now. My folks would have been so ashamed if I'd gone on the trip she just did while owing so much money, even if every penny had been paid for me, and they'd have told people that. I think you're probably right, String, that they raised her to be that way...and apparently their church isn't bothered by any of it.

To me, JM acts like someone who could never get her parents' attention, so she acts out like a three year old, or an adolescent. Except she's 35. On her father's FB page, several reports on the "mission" trip made Not A Single Mention of the fact that his daughter accompanied him. Narcissism begets narcissism.

I'm guessing they are now as they've always been: very detached from her, very little emotional interaction. They may be embarrassed or disappointed in her situation, but are so distant they won't say anything for or against. No matter what she does she can't get them to notice her. I actually feel sorry for her a little.

Sonic, your impression is definitely different than mine. I think he doesn't discuss her because he doesn't want the MWOP people all over him, exposing shit he wants to keep hidden about her and them. Maybe it's shame, I hope it's shame, that keeps him from mentioning her but I still know my folks, in their place would address it and disavow it. Not *me, just my actions. The fact he doesn't says something to me. I think he lays low about her to cover and protect his own ass.

So now she's talking about Australia. My mind, it boggles. The picture of the lady in church made my heart twist, though...who does this? Who takes a picture of someone in church, what should be a fairly private moment, even though you're in a group? A Mountain Dew in her hand doesn't mean she's bored or being disrespectful. It could mean nothing more than she's a caffeine addict and needed something to get her through a long service without a headache. Or maybe she's diabetic and thought drinking a soft drink was more respectful than eating in church. Who knows? I just know that photo was so wrong, so damn disrespectful, and once again, I don't understand why her folks aren't speaking up so as to distance themselves from it. You know, if they're actually better than this.

that's it, right there...rude American tourist. The church picture just got me. I don't care if the lady fell asleep right afterward...maybe she was up all night with worry or something and being in church relaxed her and she slept. It's still a personal time for people and you just don't take pictures there unless it's a wedding or baptism or something and you have permission.

And now she's whining about how hard it was as a "single mom." Damn, she's back on my last nerve lately.

Exactly why is it that so many believe it is our governments duty and obligation to support Israel at all costs? Politically what is it that Israel has done for the US? Is it more of a religion based notion that we have to do this or truly political?

I am sorry but I get so sick and tired of seeing posts and articles about how we need to support them 100% no matter if they are right or wrong. Apparently Obama doesnt do everything that people want him to do in supporting Israel and I just wonder if anyone has any answers or input about this stuff.

Sorry it always seems I do drive-bys and vanish...so busy these days, and am just finishing up two weeks of vacation--the LONGEST paid vacation I have EVER had. I have enjoyed it. I have read copious amounts of whatever I wanted to read. And I have enjoyed my friends' and family's company.

But it's back to work Monday.

**sigh**

And I just wanted to say...I love the cadence of the phrase "linty mints."

I hope all are well. I'd like to try to join in the conversation. I enjoy the diversity here.

I am new to this site. Is this an anti mckmama site? I think it is... but not extreme bullying like MWOP. I think they go way overboard. I'm just curious. If a poster disagrees with a comment will they be bullied and belittled and basically - told to go to hell? I read a few comments that were EXTREMELY exaggerated. Just curious.

I can totally appreciate an awesome discussion. I do not agree with comments that are posted that are extremely exaggerated and not true. I'm trying to figure out this site. It appears to be friendly. But some comments are extremely exaggerated

I kinda like StringOfRandomLetters. But I have no clue what that means. I would like to share my name on this site but I worry that I will be scorned if I make a comment that somebody dissagrees with. Thats why I've been asking if this site bullies

Sorry, I went MIA again and didn't think there would be many comments. My apologies! As son as I catch up, I'll go check for spam.

"Exactly why is it that so many believe it is our governments duty and obligation to support Israel at all costs? Politically what is it that Israel has done for the US? Is it more of a religion based notion that we have to do this or truly political?"

Here's where I lose friends. They've done jackshit for us and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. At least, they've done no more than any small nation who wants our military might has done. They build drones there and sell them to us so we can bomb Muslims...I guess it depends on your perspective as to whether is a positive or negative, though. Mostly, it comes down to the Rothschilds and our banking industry. The Jews own us. I'm not saying that as an ugly statement, just a factual one. The US is Israel's hired hit man because of the Rothschilds and honestly, I've rather see us stand firm on principle and go under, then rebuild, than be owned by anyone. But that's why, I think.

"I hope all are well. I'd like to try to join in the conversation. I enjoy the diversity here."

Robin, Hell must still be frozen over *grins* because I'm always, seriously, happy to see you pop in here. :-)

"Is this an anti mckmama site?"

Welcome to Daisy and newp, it's not an anti-anything site. It's just a place to talk about whatever comes up. Sometimes, it might be about Jennifer and it might be negative...or it might be positive and criticizing MWOP. Who knows? In the next breath, as you can see, it may be about politics or something else. Jump in, speak your mind but make sure your big people drawers are on since we're all grownups here and next to nothing is off-limits. :-) If something was said about here that you feel wasn't true, defend yourself. You are beyond welcome to do so!

"Sorry,Does this site jump all over a poster if they have a different opinion?"

Maybe. Is your opinion ignorant? Everyone can speak their minds, freely, and with no censoring but for the minor rules off to the right. That means you might not like what you read and if you're a dumbass, you may get some backlash. Keep in mind, it's the internet...if it's too uncomfortable for you to read, click the X and you're out of here. Problem solved. :-) But, overall, we're the most opened-minded and still strong-minded, relatively polite bunch you'll find, I think. We don't tend to dwell on petty shit but if you think disagreeing with you is bullying, then you might find us to be bullies. You know, should we disagree with you.

Oh wow Lisa! Your response was very harsh. I am a dumb ass at times. I am "ignorant" at times. Thank you for your brutal honesty. I will go away-you answered my question regarding - if someone has a different opinion will the poster be bullied on this site. You definitely proved your point. I will go away. You sound like you are a very unhappy person. I wish you the best!

Alrighty, no spam but for one thing trying to send us to their weight loss product site. Um, no...deleted.

For anyone new peeking in here, I sort of, very loosely, moderate this site. "Loosely" being the key word here, since it's quiet and we all tend to act in a fairly adult-ish manner. I don't babysit grownups. The only real rules are these: "...no spamming shit and no posting personal addresses, phone numbers or other similar info." I realize that can be a gray area and I pretty much make a decision based on what other sites such as MWOP, GOMI and The Fraud Files have already posted. I don't like making those decisions, though...it pisses me off, so just be a grownup. It's not hard and most people do it around here. Topics that don't involved individuals like JM are beyond good, preferred even. Politics, religion, family issues, rants, etc.? Go for it!

That all said, I'm going to close up my bag of jalapeno cheddar Combos and go to bed. 'Night.

"Oh wow Lisa! Your response was very harsh. I am a dumb ass at times. I am "ignorant" at times. Thank you for your brutal honesty. I will go away-you answered my question regarding - if someone has a different opinion will the poster be bullied on this site. You definitely proved your point. I will go away. You sound like you are a very unhappy person. I wish you the best!"

Lol...if that's what you got from my comment, then yes, this probably isn't a good place for you. My response was, imo, far from harsh and we are *all dumbasses and ignorant from time to time, myself included. But around here, if we post our dumbassed-ness and ignorance, we better expect to be called on it since it's open game. If that's harsh to you, maybe the internet, in general, isn't a good place for you to be becasue we are far from harsh...kisy honest. I don't know and don't much care, though, I suppose. But hey, look at it this way...you're all anonymous. Try it out and run like hell, X-ing off tabs as you go, if you don't like what you hear, you know? Problem solved. You'll know you tried and know what your limitations are. :-)

My take is...if you have to ask, maybe you should just slowly back out of the room...

My dumbass grandson's baby-mama moved out of the apartment she and the grandson shared with my son, and promptly married this dude she'd only known for three weeks. Dude is a convicted felon on probation for the next 10 years for armed robbery. Dumbass baby-mama has now quit her job, taken grandson out of pre-k, stays at home and, I learned just the other day, is now pregnant.

Did I mention she's a dumbass?

And I'm pissed. Grandson cries when he has to go home. He spent the night with me the other night (his 5th b-day was yesterday) and cried when I told him his mom was coming to get him. When she called the first day he was here with me, I asked him if he wanted to talk to her, and he said no. Yet when my son called a bit later, I couldn't get the phone to him fast enough.

Sorry, Robin. I can't imagine, I'd be frantic to get that little guy away from that situation. Not that there's much you can do but be there for him. :(

Israel... I don't know much about the Rothschilds and banking and so on; I do know that we're on the wrong side of this thing. I always thought of this as an example of money replacing integrity: directly or indirectly, it's paying the US to be a Friend of Israel, so we've been supporting them for decades no matter what dreadful things they do.

I got the serious giggles reading the above Battle of the Anons; for a moment I thought we were hearing a conversation between Gollum and his dark side. :D

ROFLMAO That was awesome. Seriously if what Lisa said was harsh and she is a bully because she was up front honest then DAMN Anon I dont think you should be on the internet.

I mean a yes or no answer for such a vague question isnt going to happen. We all have opinions and we are going to share them....if it is considered bullying to disagree or have a different opinion then I say welcome to the human race.

Robin I would love to see something good happen for your grandson. It really doesnt sound like little guy is very happy at all with being home.

Ahhh, a kindred soul in typos. :-)Robin, is there any way your son would or could try to get custody of your grandson? At the very least, he needs to insist on starting the boy in counseling, I think, even if he has to get a court order for it. This has to break your heart, having to send that poor baby back into that mess.

" I always thought of this as an example of money replacing integrity: directly or indirectly, it's paying the US to be a Friend of Israel, so we've been supporting them for decades no matter what dreadful things they do."

Exactly. I could not agree more with this, although I think the word "blackmailing" may be more appropriate that "paying". Palestine being recognized by the UN the other day was a major thing and I was so pleased for that. It's a small step, but nonetheless a step, in the right direction. Have you ever tried getting a straight and logical answer out of people who support Israel when you ask them "why?" It's fascinating, actually.

And I was not harsh. :-P Shannon knows that since she, sadly, has been the recipient of my harshness in the past. So has Robin. I've really, really worked on watching my words and not typing what comes out of my head without a few filters first, so I'm sort of insulted to have been called harsh.

Robin - Glad you had a wonderful vacation and please do not be shocked, but I am glad you are posting here. Very sorry to hear about your grandson's situation - I would be over the edge worried and frustrated in that situation.

Anon - Each of us here, at one time or another, have expressed ideas, opinions that have been called out, discussed or outright challenged. I know I sure have put out a statement, been called out or someone is thoughtul enough to state an opposing view that leads me to think very hard on what I have said. There have been drivebys that have been very harsh and frankly vulgar - but you just have to shrug, know who you are and take it for what it is.

I don't read MWOP, could care less about all the Mck stuff. I wish her well and all the kids the best. That's just how I roll. With that said, if you feel maligned and have something to say for your *opposing opinions, it would be interesting to hear your side.

Lisa - Israel is a product of thousands of years of collective guilt. It is also a strategic toehold for the US in the Middle East. I am taking your questions very seriously, thought about it a lot, and that is my boiled down opinion.

String - please don't go anon. While everyone has that right to be anon, I am being very, very selfish. The back and forth anons and trying to figure out who said what gives me a headche. (Maybe my Lleggs bandana is too tight - hee!)

I hate it when Kaytie wears my pantyhose on her head. It's always damp when she gives it back.

"There have been drivebys that have been very harsh and frankly vulgar - but you just have to shrug, know who you are and take it for what it is."

That's it right there. Be secure in yourself, who and what you are, and it ought not bother you.

" It is also a strategic toehold for the US in the Middle East."

Now, how do you figure this when we have military bases all the hell over the Middle East? See? http://antiwar.com/blog/2011/12/06/u-s-military-bases-in-the-middle-east/Don't make me have to come over there and set you straight. Or something.

Ahhh, I see, thanks for explaining. :-) So we took the land from the Palestinians and established Israel for the Jews due to guilt? Okay, I can see that. I also think it has a lot to do with the fairly common Protestant (and others?) view that the Jews are the chosen people of God and therefore, our predominantly Protestant government officials decided to hedge their bets with God. Do you think that is possible?

Lisa, Jake (my son Jake) plans to file for custody soon, sometime this month. He's already been in touch with the Child Services folks. It won't be easy being a full-time single parent, but his heart is breaking over this whole situation.

Robin, is there a custody/parenting plan or order in place? If not, that might help; if he has his son for a visit he wouldn't be violating anything to just keep him one day and file for full custody. He could time it so that he had some kind of temporary order in hand, have her served while the boy's with him. He'd have to have everything in place first, and move quickly. Wonder if the Child Services folks would be supportive?

I have a good friend who did something similar with her grandson -- she has since adopted him, which is best for all concerned. He was about 3 then; he's 13 now, and happy, funny, sociable, a very normal adolescent. It could have been so much worse. Whatever happens, you're all in my prayers.

I appreciate and respect your comment Kaytie. I realize I am thin skinned and take things way too personal. I do enjoy reading this site. I am kinda new and so far I haven't read any posts about ugly feet or a child's gums, etc... - I will continue to check in but probably won't post much. I do enjoy this site!

Lisa - my opinion, and that is just what it is, on your question to me re: Israel, is that, Protestants and Catholics also look(ed) at areas within Israel as their Holy Lands. Saying this from the history of the Crusades. I think it is part of the Christian psyche to keep a hold on that land. Maybe that was also an impetus for the 1940's set up of Israel and the predominant culture of America's politicos to continue in their support of Israel? I truly do not know the hard facts - just putting some thought and guesses out there.

Does anyone here remember Lynn or was it Vanessa? Redgrave giving her pro PLO speech at the Oscars. I was a young kid at the time and I remember my parents being shocked. Still sticks with me.

Anon - join in. The more the merrier as to opinions and commentary, imo. No guarantees that someone might not throw out a comment about gingivitis or fungal foot, though ::shudder::

Robin, you can help your Jake, though, yes? It'll be hard for him but not as hard as this ongoing worry has to be. I wish him all the luck in the world. I'll be honest, after having been through a custody mess, I'm not sure they'll do anything but order her to attend parenting classes, if that, but he can't give up...he will have to just keep on fighting because he (and you) will at least need the peace in your hearts that you did all you could.

Margo, I agree about Lia and haven't heard anything, although I'm also no longer in touch with Rhys. I feel as you do...I see no legal reason we can't hear how Lia is doing in general terms, unless Rhys has been ordered to not discuss her online at all. But even in that case, she could say *that, so we knew. I don't get it...it's sad.

Kaytie, I believe you're right about the Christian religious bond with the land that is now Israel, yes. At least I believe that's also a serious factor. It doesn't make it right, imo, but it makes sense. And yes, I remember whichever Redgrave it was giving that speech and I remember my dad hating Yasser Arafat, although he really couldn't give a good reason why. I always liked Arafat. It made for interesting conversations. ;-) My dad, though, in his later years, changed his mind about a lot of things, including the Palestinians. He never did like Arafat, though.

Tiny brush of history. I was in London staying near the New Scotland Yard when Arafat visited with the PM for the first time. Amazing the amount of security (not that I saw anything) but just being close by to that event left quite an impression.

Kaytie, I have not read that and know you've recommended it before. I always forget to look for it, but just made a note on my phone so maybe I can remember next time I'm at the library. Were you able to see Arafat himself?

Jill, I'm going to hold out hope you have the first baby born in the New Year! :-) Do you have a name picked out yet? You don't have to share it if you don't want to (although I'd love to know!) but I'm just curious if you do or if you're going to see who she looks like.

Snort:Hey y’all! MockMama is back from my many worldly jaunts. “Mockmama, you’ve been away on jaunts?” Yep, I sure have and can’t wait to tell you all about what I saw, learned, and taught.

I already told y’all that my company, the company that I act like I’m CEO of, sent me and the sperm bag over to Dubai, which is a city in the United Arby’s Emirates. Dang I love those curly fries. Anyway me, the sperm bag, and our great, great team of team people stayed for several days. We ate from chocolate towerfalls, used bidets, sat in the pool, and did photo-ops in the sand. Poor Sperm Bag. In some photos he looked absolutely rode hard and hung up wet, but it other photos (where I wasn’t) he looked happy! He needs some wonder pills for his moods, eh?

After everyone left Dubai (including Sperm Bag), I was set to join my Daddy in Africa for mission work. I hardly ever cuss, except for when I do, but for fucks sake Africa is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo last season. I thought about it and wondered, “Where can I make the greatest missionary impact?” That’s right bitches! Mama went to Pakistan! Packed my bags and knapsacks with many foods and documents with my bible and passport to boot. I was on a one woman mission to bring peace and drugs to the Pakis and the Stannis. My first stop was Islamabad where I was welcomed to be sure. The village elder slaughtered a chicken, and set it down in front of me. It must have warmed their hearts that I ate the whole thing, and with chicken fat and feathers on my face I turned to the elder and told him from the bottom of my sports bra, “Gracias, my friend in Christ.” The next day I gathered all the woman and taught them about chia seeds, hemp hearts, peanut butter, and homemade Lara bars. I’m sure the info-session would have gone over better if I had actually brought supplies instead of Polaroids, but you get my drift. Before I left I painted them a mural on a bomb shelter. It is so strengthening to do Christ’s work. After a wonderful time in Islamabad I caught the 9:30 camel to Karachi and had a fun time there too. They even taught me how to shoot a gun. I taught them how to make chains out of Juicy Fruit wrappers.

After a long long trip home spanning many time zones I am home in the frozen tundra with Sperm Bag, and the little ones. I wanted to go to bed alone because I’m jet and camel lagged, but nooooooooooooo, the kids insisted on snuggling with me.

Christmas is approaching, and my company is running a too-good-to-be-true special for our awesome faux-natural pills! If you don’t lost 15 pounds by Christmas Eve (guaranteed!!!!!) then we will send you a FREE Christmas Honey-Glazed ham. Email me at dotdotdot[dot]dot@gmail[dot]com.

*waves at an old friend of mine* I hope everyone will welcome a newcomer, even if she stays anonymous or makes up a fake name. She's new to the whole MckMama thing and sucked in, but good for other conversation, too!

I have to tell you, I can't get past Snort on a personal level to find her amusing. Now, maybe that's small-minded of me and I do understand how some people would but there are certain people in the who just rub me so wrong, who I feel are so reprehensible in their actions, that I just cannot get past it. All I can think of when I read her shit is, "Who in the *hell are you to judge or make fun anyone else...ever?"

Well, I'm not so sure about that re Snort. I find her funny sometimes, over the top others. Kinda like real life. Also, yes, she did some really reprehensible things and also filed bankruptcy (with much less than $750K debt load, but still) -- and she is the first to (1) own up to it and take full responsibility, and (2) change her ways, make amends, do whatever is necessary. Plus, during the bankruptcy process, if I'm not mistaken, she at no time assumed she was smarter than the trustee and the system and tried to lie/cheat/finesse her way out. She still doesn't, whereas...

I guess my point: lots of people have made major life mistakes. Lots of people have filed bankruptcy. A few twisted souls continue their journey as though nothing had happened; indeed, lie and cheat prodigiously to reinforce that fairy tale in their own minds and the minds of those around them. Big difference in my book.

Also, to address this "let them suffer!" hyperbole, which I've heard lots of other places. It's not like a health-care person in this situation steals the drugs out of a sick person's hand. Nurses, doctors, etc. who have this kind of drug problem have access to the cabinets, etc., where narcotics are stored. Still a problem, still wrong for many reasons. Let's just dial back the drama a teeny bit; the situation's bad enough without that.

Sonic, I respect your thoughts and feelings. Strong narcotics are closely monitored and accessed with a key and signed out by the Dr or RN. No hard feelings. I have issues with someone judging another person when they seriously screwed up also. She didn't share her drug addiction until someone that knows her "outed" her

"I guess my point: lots of people have made major life mistakes. Lots of people have filed bankruptcy."

It is still stealing from others. They took goods and services without paying for them and whether they intended to pay for them or not is irrelevant.

Also it doesn't matter whether Snort shared or someone outed her, imo. It *is stealing drugs from patients who needed them, as they is not an unlimited supply of drugs to go around and the drugs in that locked cabinet were intended for patient use. We also have no clue at *all whether people really went without due to her theft or not. Let's not whitewash something with minor technicalities here, but let's go with your theory...if you gave me your ATM card so I could get cash out to pay your bills while you were gone somewhere and I also took cash out for myself even though you'd made it clear to me I was to not do any such thing, is that any less of a theft just because I did, at least, keep your bills paid?

I forgot to add up there that no, we do not know she made them suffer without their drugs, so it's not a bit fair to say that. But, as I said, we also don't know she didn't; however, it's best to not assume and accuse on this as we really do not know anyone suffered as a result.

I will stop posting about snort. I respect your comments. She has skeletons in her closet -it bothers me when she constantly judges someone - when she has issues as well. I am NOT defending Mckmama. I have issues with snort trashing another person when she has serious issues as well. She is OBSESSED with trashing Mckmama? Why? I don't like Mckmama either - but... why are people obsessed with her? elle

Elle, you don't have to stop discussing her; I was just pointing out that what we know to be fact is bad enough without attributing something to her we don't know to be true. That's all. :-) And I sort of get the "obsession" with JM, as I go through spells of finding her just fascinating, even now. What I don't get, and what I suspect you actually are saying here, is the day in and day out nit-picking people do, right? It just doesn't matter what she does, there's going to be a bunch who find fault with it.

Oh wow!This is Marlene I just read this comment about me. My husband passed away 1 1/2 years ago suddenly. I do have 3 children. I never ever would beg for pity. Especially on a hate site. Why was i targeted? I do not know Barb? Or Tina? What is a mole? You do not know me or anything about me. My husband passed away 10 years ago? I do not know Lisa either. What do you want to accomplish Ms Annonomous? Anonymous said...

Lisa:It's a lady named Marlene, who used to post about her husbands death as if it were the same week, but apparently it was like 10 years ago or something? I don't remember the other user names she had. I'm not sure if her name is really Marlene. I wouldn't exactly call her a mole, she reads on MWOP and then posts screenshots on BWOP. Anyone can do that. She was always a bit loopy, and would have these long, drawn out sob stories and beg for attention. It's a bit strange to beg for attention on a snark site. This whole Barb/Marlene/Tina saga just gets creepier by the minute Julia September 12, 201

The problem I and many others (including Snort, I think) have with JM is not the bankruptcy per se; plenty of people have gone through that. It's the fact that even know, with all the public record info that's out there, she continues to lie and pretend nothing ever happened. She's dancing along the edge of fraud and misrepresentation with the Xyng thing too. I don't care how much she really weights; I don't care what she feeds her kids. I hate liars and cheats.

The obsession piece of it is not unusual online, I think. Weird and warped, to be sure; just not all that different from a lot of other internet psychoses. Hard to figure how what kind of shoes or haircuts or pets they have matters to anyone.

Not excusing Snort -- as she herself would say, her behavior sucked. No excuses.

The thing about JMck is that a person starts reading her thinking she's for real: an attached parent (I don't personally care if it's "attachment parenting" or not, as long as she's connecting to them on more than a feed/eat/sleep level), healthy foods, another baby :-) oh sweet!!!, fun experiences, etc., etc.

Then you see one inconsistency. No big thing; we all have them. Then something bigger. After a while, you see that her entire blog life is fiction. That would be fine, if she just said so, at least when asked. But no. Anyone who questions is a "hater". But you just want to understand, so you keep reading. You see more and more and more inconsistencies, and at the end stage, maybe you leave. Or maybe you hang around for the final train wreck, and *then leave. Your choice; as long as she has an online presence, *she is putting her life out there where she knows full well it will be scrutinized.

Would I go email her business contacts and tell them about her? Heck no. Would I write vulgar comments on her site, or any other site? No, not my style. Do I think she's pretty despicable? Oh yeah, I do. "Hater"? ::Shrugs::

And I don't know how the evolution happens from her side. But I would hazard a guess that for a while it's been at this stage: They like me, they really like me? Okay, as long as I can use them in some way to further my own interests. Haters? Okay, as long as I can use them in some way to further my own interests. I don't think that it bothers her one way or another on the superficial level on which she has currently chosen to live her life. I *do think it has eaten at her soul to a dangerous level.

I think about that evolution thing too, String. How did she get here from where she was? Early pictures of her with her oldest babies, or even in college years before any of this, show a happy, peaceful, even sweet-looking young woman with a light in her eyes. Maybe all the attention she got from her blog, which exploded when they found out Stellan was ill in utero and she started writing about it -- maybe all that intensity pushed a button in her weakness. Hard to say how anyone would respond to that kind of craziness.

I always see these things as object lessons: what turned her? what warps any of us away from the good souls we start with? How can we stay conscious about our spirits and choose wisely? Looking at JM's life from way outside, I'm thinking she's rejected any kind of self-awareness or introspection; she doesn't question or examine herself at all, or she would be sick with shame and eager to change her life. Soul-eaten for sure.

I know, Sonic. Some place blame on her family; I don't know because I don't see their interactions. Could it be that her son being so ill traumatized her "safety zone"? Her happy little family had to face an adversity. Bad things *do happen to good people; this much I know for certain. As I see it, when you have a trauma handed to you, do what you have to do. If you are like me, you would first whine and complain and get mad, and then suck it up and make lemonade. It really can make a person stronger :-)

Definitely, especially the whining part for me. And then you don't start trying to take the world for everything you can get to fill that hole in your belly. You have some Powdermilk Biscuits and get up and do what must be done. :)

These MLMs are tricky. As I understand it she gets paid based on her monthly business volume (at least that's what Amway used to call it): the amount of product she/her group orders. If she is, as many suspect, buying loads of it to sell later (or give away, or whatever), then her totals would look good and qualify her for $10K/month, but doesn't really reflect how much she's selling. A very shaky way to make a living; it's a house of cards.

Not even close. You seem to lack reading comprehension. I'm sorry...can we help?

" It's the fact that even know, with all the public record info that's out there, she continues to lie and pretend nothing ever happened." and also from Sonic: "I don't care how much she really weights; I don't care what she feeds her kids. I hate liars and cheats."

Agreed completely...and then to still owe all those people and to be spending as she is? Um, no. However, Snort still dumped her debts on others, too, which makes her, at the very least, a cheat.

"Would I go email her business contacts and tell them about her? Heck no. Would I write vulgar comments on her site, or any other site? No, not my style. Do I think she's pretty despicable? Oh yeah, I do. "Hater"? ::Shrugs::"

And this is where I'm at. Although, I freely admit I appreciate that some on MWOP have reported her to the IRS. On that, I'd have done the same and make no apologies for it, but it appears it's already been done. But the personal stuff? Whatever...not my business.

"Early pictures of her with her oldest babies, or even in college years before any of this, show a happy, peaceful, even sweet-looking young woman with a light in her eyes."

I agree and suspect she was just that...somewhat spoiled, but sweet. I think money and "fame" went to her head and you know, I'm willing to admit that, had I been in her place, I can't swear I'd have not changed, too. If one feels a little insecure, has low self-esteem, the attention she got during Stellan's rough patch and after would have been hard to not let go to one's head, imo.

"Powdermilk Biscuits"Ooooohm, clue! ;-)

Elle, I suspect, as Sonic explained, she may not actually be making nearly that much a month, gross. And this can't and won't last forever, which I think (hope) she realizes.

So if we talk about jen jen it makes us a MWOP satellite? I mean really are you concerned about that? I am pretty sure Jen makes up maybe 1% of total topic that has ever been on Daisy. Personally I think BWOP is certainly more MWOP like then Daisy has ever been.

I'd like to say for the record that if anybody is looking for a pot to stir please come by my house. I'm trying to make a boatload of jelly for presents and there's a lot of spoon work to be done. Thanks in advance.

So apparently Oregon has joined in with the ranks of a couple of freaking idiots going into crowded places and shooting as many as they can before being shot. Seriously I do not get that kind of stuff. Maybe you want to die. Maybe people really piss you off. Fine and good sometimes people have those feelings but somehow something should click in a person's head that just killing random people is not what should be done.

String I wish they would too. I mean there has to be something that could be found to be some kind of warning sign. You know something more then bullied, depressed, loner, etc etc. I mean I was kind of all of those things when I was younger but I never even so much as even thought of going out and killing people.

You know what I think it is? My generation and older, we were raised that we weren't anything special in the world. We're just another person, most of us will never be more than middle class, certainly not wealthy, probably not working at jobs we like but rather, because it paid the bills. The younger generations want it all, want it now and want to be famous doing it...when it doesn't happen, when they realize they are not the center of the universe, some of them can't cope and feel like isn't worth living. They try to take people out with them as their last attempt to be famous. I could be wrong, but I think it's something along those lines...

Margaritas all around! We can make virgin ones for Jill and for Julia, if she drops in. Anyone else pregnant?

I often do wonder if that is a lot of what it is. I honestly think that for the general rule kids in the late 80's and very very early 90's may have been the last brought up to know that sometimes life sucks ass. My kids have had issues, as all do, but I have always worked to make sure that if it was their doing it is their job to fix it and that it happened because they did something wrong. They didnt get everything they wanted, or even a fraction of what they wanted, but they never needed for anything. Now a days we see a lot of Dudley Dursley syndrome I like to think of it. More, bigger, better, and NOW. They think they are somehow exempt from fault for anything because now we see so often that as parents we arent supposed to do anything to 'diminish' their spirit. Well believe me my mom diminished my spirit plenty of times as I did with my own children.

"They think they are somehow exempt from fault for anything because now we see so often that as parents we arent supposed to do anything to 'diminish' their spirit."

Yep, yep, yep...definitely this, too. Not that I am a great parent, but I raised Jake more the way I was and not how most of his friends were raised. It makes me feel good to see how little he is content with, although I do think he might have taken it to such an extreme that he lacks some ambition. Well, that's not even right, I guess...he's just willing to live in poverty to do what he loves, as opposed to living better by sucking it up and doing something that pays better. I suppose that means I raised a dreamer, but at least I have no fear of him killing anyone or doing mean things for money.

LOL I hear ya on dodging the genetic odds. I am so damn proud of my kids. There may have been a time with my son I was worried what the outcome would be but now I know for sure he is going to be OK. With my daughter I never worried so much about her as I always knew she would do well....she has greatly surpassed any expectations I had about her.

It really is awesome hahahaha. You know as several friends around here know...there was a good bit of time that I was genuinely worried about that becoming a reality. Never even for doing actual bad stuff...just for being a total dumbass.

My infamous FB posters have struck again. Posting a pic with college students for Obama and then a big old thing about how Obama cut Pell Grants by 33%. Seriously I dont think people ever actually check anything before jumping on bandwagons.....perhaps this is a big problem with today's society.

I didnt even put any partisan on my search just typed in 'who cut pell grants'....Paul Ryan's name came up a whole lot. The Republican house passed it and it was sitting in the Senate for a long time. It was actually proposed last year as part of the budget cuts.

What gets me even more is that none of these people can explain what the magical line is between welfare, social security, and now pell grants....is it not all the same freaking thing???

ADHD is good around here...yes, of course it's all the same thing. They're all welfare/entitlement programs and I'll grant you that some are less offensive than others but this isn't rocket science. If you get something from the federal government that equals more than you've paid in and that not just anyone can make use of upon request, you've got yourself a welfare program.

That all said, there *is this: "On December 23, 2011, President Obama signed into law the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2012 (Public Law 112-74). This new federal law states that the amount of Federal Pell Grant funds a student may receive over his or her LIFETIME will be reduced to the duration of a student's eligibility from 18 semesters (or its equivalent) to 12 semesters (or its equivalent). This new law applies to ALL Federal Pell Grant eligible students effective with the 2012-2013 award year beginning July 1, 2012. (DCL-GEN-12-01)"

See that is what I really dont get. I mean most republicans posting on this topic are pissed that this has happened........how can they be pissed about this? Wasnt one of the big things this last election year about how college was not a right and the govt shouldnt be paying for it?

Well, one would have thought but Republicans were all over the damn place, from what I could tell. The fact is, Obama could overturn Obamacare and some Republicans would bitch about it, just because he did it. The fact is, college is not a right, should never be a right and if you want to go, pay for it or get yourself a scholarship. I wish he'd cut Pell grants entirely.

Lisa youre so right. This is what happens when people just follow blindly. I have to stop arguing with them because they are raising my blood pressure. No individual research...just bandwagon jumping. I mean hell I hated Bush but would actually look into stuff before just spreading bullshit.

I live across the county from the mall where the shooting was last night. Horrifying. If the news is reporting things accurately the kid had a semi-auto of some kind, spraying bullets hither and yon. Hard to believe only two people were killed. It must have been mayhem.

I also wish somebody could come up with a reasonable-sounding idea about why these things are happening so much. The only one I've heard that makes even a little sense is: we're approaching, or even have begun, a time a great change and shifting, a sort of spiritual evolutionary jump. Change makes a LOT of people really crazy, even if they're not totally aware of what's happening. That, and maybe the hard times we're going through, is enough to tip marginally-sane people over the edge.

Seems like this past election season has really highlighted that bandwagon first/think later phenomenon. Scary and frustrating. I've spent a LOT less time this past year talking politics than I usually do. Too many people foaming at the mouth.

I raised my son very differently from how I was raised in most ways. I was taught that hard work and integrity are important, no matter how difficult; I was also taught that appearances are more valuable than reality, which I consciously turned away from when my son was coming up. He's had a LOT of things stacked against him, but he's grown up into a kind, open-minded, strong, decent man and a wonderful father. Don't know how he did it; he didn't have that kind of fatherhood modeled for him as a kid, but somehow he figured it out. I'm very proud of him.

Shannon, that's one of the nicest things anyone has said about me in a long time...thank you, sincerely. And I truly appreciate the fact you didn't just blow me off because I was outside of your comfort zone, but took the time and stop and listen to what I was saying and think about it and then be able to explain why you still disagree, when you do.

" If the news is reporting things accurately the kid had a semi-auto of some kind, spraying bullets hither and yon. Hard to believe only two people were killed."

They say he stole the weapon and he only killed two because it jammed on him. Who knows why...God? Luck? Just a fluke? All I know about people like his is that either his parents missed a big step in teaching him about how very wrong it is to take a human life except in self-defense, or, alternately, he was a young man with a terrible mental illness. Either way, I always feel bad for the families of these shooters, too, since I have to believe they did the best they could to raise their child and they, too, have suffered the same loss as their son's victims' families, plus they have the shame and horror on top of it all. Sonic, I really think kids today feel like failures in many ways and I do think (I'm about to sound like an old fart, so be warned) that things like violent video games and movies have contributed by desensitizing kids to death. Hell, they've desensitized *me to it all. As a result, I think kids with issues of any sort can cross that line into doing what this young man did without it really even seeming real to them.

Your son, Sonic, sounds like a wonderful young man with a good heart. I think, perhaps, you're selling yourself short.

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