Mages, ten-man raiding, and other things that are awesome.

Occasionally as a guild leader or “management” member of any group of WoW-folks, you’re faced with some tough decisions. Sometime last year our guild had to grapple with the question of social members – would we have them, and under what circumstances? Should we have them?

Historically, the guild had a few social members. These were invariably people who had once been raiders that were unable to raid for one reason or another. When I first joined there was an assorted group of these, some of them that no one in the guild could remember raiding, but they were still “around.” Some guilds might have almost nothing but social members, or just “members,” but when you’re a focused raiding guild there is usually going to be a necessary division.

Almost all the screenshots I have with guildies are from raids! This one happens to feature our nifty battle standard.

For us, social members have always been a bit of a grey area, sometimes presenting a conundrum. The social members we’ve had have come in three different flavours:

Social With A Side of Raiding (Someday)

Our first two members like this wanted to join although we had no raiding spots. This is one of the biggest difficulties of being a small, “exclusive” kind of guild. Since we focus on ten mans and don’t want to run two simultaneous groups, we have to be very careful of roster bloat. Too many raiders means people are benched too frequently. Not enough will lead to burn-out. I actually famously (and regrettably) turned down a resto druid and her hunter friend because our roster simply didn’t have the room for them. The druid was so determined that our guild was the best fit for her that she farmed up the copper to send me an in-game message asking me to reconsider and reassuring me that they would be happy to just be social until such time as a need arose for them on the roster. Note – this kind of tenacity does have the potential to make a guild reconsider your application. She impressed me – we let them in.

Less than a week later, in a strange twist of fate, we had roster turnover and suddenly needed a healer and a DPS. Because we’d considered the two of them including the merits of their skills as raiders, this was fine. They stepped in seamlessly and are still valuable members to this day. I’m happy it worked out the way it did.

It’s a rare person that’s going to want to join a guild just to warm the bench, though – most people applying to a raiding guild are going to want to raid. If you admit people as socials with intent to raid, you still have to evaluate their personality, gear, logs, experience and knowledge. Recruiting is work, interviewing takes time, and this could be time wasted if the people don’t actually raid with you – or if you decide not to admit them after all the time spent reviewing their application.

Raiders Gone Social

This is liable to be a common category in most guilds, no matter the size. Life has a way of sneaking up on people and bludgeoning them – life changes like children, a move, or a new job can make a formerly convenient raiding schedule impossible. I’ve never seen any need to not keep and value these people – you usually know them from raiding so they are friends, and having more people in the guild keeps things lively. They can still run five-mans with other guildies when they have time, or just chat.

In some cases, these folks may want to raid again at some later date. Once a raider has “stepped down” from the roster we require that they re-apply to join raids. This is for us the only fair way because roster needs may have completely changed. There may not be room for that person, or they may have a different schedule. Re-applying proves that they are serious about raiding again, it can help to answer scheduling questions, and it acts as a tangible sign of commitment. We might even interview if the situation called for it – say, for example, if many guildies didn’t know the person from previously, or if they intended to play a different character.

Because nothing says "friend" like getting your buddy stuck on a Sandbox Tiger, laughing at his distress, and then posting screenshots for all the people on the internet to see.

Just Social, Please

We’ve had poor luck with purely social members who applied that way. After some discussion about this last summer, we did have a few folks (friends of mine) join briefly, but often alts on other servers are played infrequently, and so although they were awesome people (hey guys!) most of the guildies didn’t know who they were. This is a bit awkward for everyone involved, sort of like giving a friend a key to your shared home but not being home when they drop by and let themselves in. With such a small group of people, it can be jarring to have new folks joining and if personalities don’t gel, someone has to go. (Hint: It can’t be one of the raiding members we depend on, and this leads to awkwardness all around). We did decide that we’d take social members on the good recommendation of a current member – so if your good friend wants to join and you’ll vouch for him, then sure, but again it’s provisional. Just as we have a trial period for all raiders, we consider any new member in the same light.

Another really bizarre example of a “just social” member came after a disgruntled former member created an alias for himself, played a different character, and re-applied to the guild…as if he were a completely different person. Honestly, I can’t make this stuff up. I don’t know if we’re too trusting or just plain gullible, but he put on a convincing enough voice for the vent interview that we actually let him in. It wasn’t an easy decision, as several members rightly asked, “If he doesn’t want to raid, I don’t see what he’s really bringing to the guild?” I argued to give him a chance since he seemed nice enough.

Not everyone is going to have the same point of view on this. Personally, I like people. I like to chat with them, and I like the feeling of having a few folks online with the green chat. Others are more practical: we’re a raiding guild. We’re here for raiding, so why would we take people who aren’t going to be raiding? It’s a fair question, and it worked out tremendously badly in this fellow’s case. Eventually the suspicious things he’d said and done added up, and an officer thought to check his IP address on the forums before coming to the realization that he was the same member who had left. He was the last person to apply as a social that we accepted.

Since then, we’ve all been pretty wary about social applications. I actually got an e-mail from a reader (perhaps a former reader) who was going through some difficult times and looking for a guild to be in. I felt terrible to have to tell him that I really wasn’t certain if we were the place for him. As a blogger, if I were running a different sort of guild – I wouldn’t have hesitated, absolutely. As GL of a raiding guild (taking into consideration all of the above) I had to give him a pretty ambivalent answer. I still feel bad about it on a personal level, but as far as my responsibility to my fellow guildies goes – I did what I had to do. I can only hope that he understood, although I never heard back from him and probably lost a reader because of it.

Let’s All Be Friends (And Kill Internet Dragons)

It’s unfortunate, but social applications and members can present a number of problems for a raiding guild. We’re lucky because the social members we do have are great people, very friendly and affable. I feel an obligation towards all of my guildies and I want them to have fun and feel comfortable in the guild, but our primary focus is raiding. We’re a raiding guild, it’s what we do – so it’s easy for social members to feel a bit on the outskirts, and there isn’t very much I can do about it.

Fortunately, with Cataclysm some fairly drastic changes have led to a much better system in this regard. Prior to release, one of our social members took me aside to tell me that he’d been feeling pretty disconnected with the guild. He still liked the people, just that since he wasn’t raiding he naturally felt as if he wasn’t contributing anything to the guild. Since guild experience and guild leveling were implemented, it doesn’t matter whether you’re raiding with a guild or just questing on an alt – everyone’s contributions are equally visible and valuable! This same member went out of his way to kill specific classes/races in PvP so we could earn an achievement and the right to buy the Guild Page, and he reaps the benefits of our leveling just as everyone does. I think it’s pretty great that we can all share in that, and I’ll be writing in greater length soon about guild leveling, guild XP, and how happy I am about them.

Meantime, I still don’t think these changes to the way that guilds work are compelling enough for us to start entertaining social applications apart from close friends of guildies. I’d still like to make sure that all our guild members are happy and feel valued. What is your guild’s policy about social members (if you have one)? Have you ever been a social member in a raiding guild? Did you regret it, or were you happy with the way it worked out?

Comments on: "Social Members, Raiding Guilds" (36)

My guild does it exactly the other way round: Every applicant starts as social member and a test time, where we’ll see if he’s a good fit for the guild or not. We’ve got a lot of social members that way.

After said testing time, if the person is a full guild member, he/she can apply for raider rank for a certain toon (and spec!), which has special requirments regarding gear, punctuality and etc. If you cease to fit those requirements, you’re getting booted from raider rank, but are still a full paid up member of the guild.

Raiders are preferred over social members for guildraids, although social members can tag along if there’s space and they’re good/geared enough.

We usually field one or two raiding teams with rotating setups. Progression is slow, but steady and we usually have a core team that learns and teaches the fights to others.

Works very well for us, but we’re a biggish, not a tightknit guild with lots of (mature) adults. There are some personality clashes, but due the applicant-test-drive they’re kinda rare.

I think it sounds like a perfectly reasonable method, Carina! About how large is your guild, though? We have fourteen active raiders and about sixteen to eighteen members so I suspect we’re really quite small by comparison!

We’ve currently got sixteen individual members in raider-rank, with roughly 10 more shooting for it (but not fullfilling gear requirements yet).

The ammount of guildmembers fluctuates (people leaving the game, people coming back, new applicants – people leaving the guild for others are really rare, though), but currently we usually have between 8 and 16 chars online in the afternoon / evening, just doing whatever they’re doing. There’s always someone you can poke and try to rope into running HC’s or joint fishing adventures, or impromptu old-content-raids.

All in all I think we have around 200-250 toons in our rooster, although some of our members have altitis. *g*

I have been everything from an ultra-casual can’t raid ‘cuse life is beating me up kinda player all the way through to progression raider and officer in a raiding guild type.

I suppose now I am kinda like the old codger… the burned out raider shaking his cane and yelling at all these new goblins and worgen to get off my lawn.

“Back in my day we had to work just to get into dungeons!”

*rummages through an old crate and waves an amulet*

“See there kids, if you look really close you can still see the blood of Drakkasith flowing inside it.”

*wanders off mumbling about new fangled something or other…*

Personally some of my best times as a player were as a social member of a guild several of my RL friends were running progression with.

I got to know the people, and occasionally all the stars lined up and I would spend an evening raiding with them. In between I would run heroics to keep my gear at least kinda up to date, and keep up on how to heal.

Thinking about it from the standpoint of the officer I once was, I like the idea of starting as a social to check for personality conflicts and then promoting from within the guild to a raid status.

Heh. No, I agree! Social to raider can actually be pretty awesome and I think more likely to find a place in our guild (especially if a person happened to be a spec/class we needed). There’s something to be said for being ready to step in on a night when the team might come up short – and with a roster like ours, some nights regrettably it happens. If we received apps like this I think we’d be likely to consider them, but the majority of people looking for a raiding guild (unless they’re already friends with someone in the guild) probably want to raid sooner rather than later and I think that prevents us from getting many.

Well, I guess it depends on the raiding a guild does. Some are more hardcore than others, and some straddle the line between raiding, leveling, and social.

I’m not a guild leader or a guild officer, so I don’t have the answers to those questions. On the Horde guild I’m in, however, all members have the ability to review and chime in on application requests. Since that guild raids but isn’t completely defined as a raiding guild, we look for a good fit both socially as well as in raids.

I’m not going to comment very much on Tom’s guild, since I’m the noob there, but they have a definite raiding structure and tier where you have to earn the raider designation on a regular basis. Beyond those observations, I can’t really say anything else.

Just keep on herding them cats, Vid!

Speaking of herding cats, are you ever going to tell the story of how you ended up as GL?

Hmm, I hadn’t ever thought about it, although I was going to write a related post in February – it will have been one year ago, in February! I’m not sure all of the details are something I’d share publicly, but I’d be happy to tell you sometime one on one if you’ve wondered. (But don’t you have more exciting things to want to talk about? 😉

Since Cataclysm we’re giving it a try having Social members to see how it works out. Being a small 10 man guild it does liven the chat up a bit since we have more people on at any given time and so far the Social members seem happy as well since they have people to chat with and our raiding members have alts and we all can run dungeons together.

Since it’s fairly new for us though I can’t really comment on how it will work out in the long run.

What we’re doing is having everyone, including social members start on a 2 week trial period after becoming a full member (albeit on a social rank). If you want to be a raiding member you can go on to be on the raiding rank, but you have to give notice to the officers. If you want to move from Social to Raider you have to do a 2 week trial for raiding where we bring you and see how you do. After the trial depending on if you did good or not you either stay as Social or you get put on the Raider rank.

But still, this is all new to us so I have to wait and see how it works out 🙂

I’ll be interested to hear the results a few months down the line! It seems like everyone is recruiting nowadays – I worry that if we happened to lose any members we’d find ourselves in a pickle. Having social members who might like to become raiding members might alleviate that. I hope that model works out well for your guild! 🙂

Wish I had more time to comment properly but sat in an internet cafe in Spain and nearly out of time lol. I guess Í´m a raider gone social cos of work and family life commitments, I PvP a lot more often now to fill the void left by being part of the raiding team. One day I hope to be able to raid again – at times it can be frustrating or lonely when your best guild buddies are busy on progression raids and you´re sat cooling your heels in Orgrimmar or waiting for the next BG. But our guild has lots of social members, they´re all entitled to apply for raiding spots if they want to and their gear is up to scratch. I have found though that although we´re a great PvE guild and people join for progression, most stay for the friends they make. Although I could apply to a guild that had raid times better suited around my work and life schedule the truth is I couldn´t contemplate being in any other guild, it just wouldn´t be home.

TYVM for your comment btw Vid – it is always a pleasure to be ablle to watch you draw and I really enjoy the crowd on the chat. I will reply properly on the website when I get time promise XD

Our guild is a social guild with a pair of raids that are not “guild runs”. The raid leaders have control over their rosters, schedules, rules, whatever. That way we have lots of room for raiders, non raiders, pvpers, whoever wants to just be in the guild. It’s awesome; I wish we could get a bit more progression in our raid but I’ve seen progression raiders, and I’ve seen pure social guilds, and where we are now has the best of both worlds.

I think clear expectations are a must, whether you have clearly outlined ranks of membership or not. When things start to fall off the rails is when “social” members want to raid, but don’t want to do the raiding prep that the members do.

I’ve only been in my new guild for 3 months, but one of the things my husband and I like most about it is exactly what Zelmaru said: clear cut expectations.

Our guild accepts both social members and raiders. People apping to be raiders give a detailed application describing themselves and how they play their class to show how knowledgeable they are about their class and spec. This is then followed by an app discussion within the guild to make sure there’s no glaring faults in their play or reputation. For my husband and I, and I assume others as well, this was followed up with a vent interview. Their policy? “We don’t let anyone into our guild that we wouldn’t let into our house–literally.” I love it.

Social applicants, on the other hand, must have a friend within the guild to vouch for them. The guild was formed near launch, so there are a lot of both social members (friends) and former raiders. Admittedly, I don’t always know who everyone is, but because of their policy I quoted above, we all mostly get along. It’s an extremely nice guild environment.

Any people that join our guild need to fit with our principles of altruism and personality. We trial those who join. Some of our members come from friend referrals (in-game or RL) Those come in at a Friend and Family designation. Those who apply on the site and do not know anyone or have played with anyone get the initiate designation. Once we’ve determined they are a good fit, they move to member status. Raider status is allowed (one toon per person) when they are raid read. We are currently working on the second 10 man running on another day.

We have lots of social players due to family and job commitments. These folks sometimes can raid and do, but know those who raid consistently have priority for spots. Social or non raiding players alike all contribute in their own ways now which is very cool. Especially in a group of altaholics. 😀

Our weekly PVP activities are on the rise and I imagine now that many ‘mains’ are geared for raiding, there will be more arena and bg nights, which is great for those who want to play a bit but can’t commit the time to raid.

We actually have a specific non-raiding rank in our guild called “Friends and Family”. We implemented this somewhere back in the early TBC era. And I don’t know if this sounds terrible or not…but the rank is there for our raiders. It’s there so that their friends and family can have the opportunity to play with them, even if they can’t raid together.

All F/F members are told from the start that this is not a raiding position, they should not expect raid invites and if they constantly whine about that fact, they will be removed. In addition to that, they are required to strictly abide by our code of conduct or they will be removed from the guild.

This has actually been a really great thing for our guild. From it we grew as guild into (what I feel is) an amazing community of people on our server. We have over 500 “members” and probably 150+ accounts. We have our progression 25 raiding team – but we also have two seperate 10s raid teams comprised of groups of folks that are RL friends.

Not only do our F/F members contribute to the guild via guild points or whatnot – but they truly enrich the environment of Monolith, which is something that I think is extremely valuable and shouldn’t be overlooked. Sure – person x may not raid with us, but I’ll be damned if they don’t make me laugh at least once a day.

We have also filled many a raiding position on our roster with a F/F member who has interest in raiding – and honestly it’s great. They still have to apply for the raiding position, and will only be offered the position if they are the best applicant, but they have the fact that they are a known factor working for them. We know they fit in, we know how they play, and we know them. Hell – we’ve even had someone from outside of the guild who wanted to apply tell us that he heard a rumor that we only recruit from within our guild (which I quickly dispelled), but the fact that the community knows how much we value every member of our guild – regardless of if they raid – was pretty awesome.

I could probably write pages more about how valuable and fantastic I think our “social” members are, but I’ll stop here. I just want to close by saying that I strongly believe that F/F (“social”) members add tremendous value to a guild – regardless of the size.

All my previous guilds were raiders-only, so the only socials were ex-raiders. Now, in my guild, we started off with the idea that we will take socials, with a caveat: someone to vouch for them. We had a bit of trouble with that (a person who was extremely obnoxious, unlike his friend), but otherwise it’s worked out fine. We even got a few good raiders out of it!

Like you and others have noted, it makes guild chat livelier, there’s more people for heroics and, since most of them are actually burnt-out former hardcore raiders, they make good backups. (For reference, we raid 10-mans, we have about 15 potential raiders now, and we have around 30 people in the guild.)

We have exactly 12 raider spots available in my guild. If a raider steps down, they know they cannot get back in unless there is an opening. I’ve yet to have a former raider try to butt their way back in when there wasn’t an opening (though I did have one come back when a spot was available).

We have a friends and family rank in our guild so related folks can play together and be in the same guild even it they’re not raiding together, and it’s worked out so far.

We generally don’t allow unrelated non-raiders to apply to the guild, to avoid bloating up and having too many people waiting in the wings who want to raid. (As the GM, I want to know who all the people are in the guild. Nobody should be a faceless minion.) To date we only made one exception. He offered to be a bench with no expectation of ever going full-time raiding (his schedule won’t allow it) and he’s actually turned out to be a good fit for us.

Well-put, Hana. I need to know every single person in the guild really well, too – it’s why I enjoy being in a tens focused guild in the first place. If I can’t ask so-and-so how his exam went or know the name of another guildie’s dog, I wouldn’t have the social experience I really want.

I actually am one of those weird social hanger-ons in a friend’s 10-man raiding guild. I joined in a fit of lethargy over my raiding status, and we figured it’d be a good way for me to chat to people as I leveled up. However, I knew within the first couple of weeks that the guild wasn’t going to to work from me because of scheduling issues, yet my alt is still there.

I try not to “bother” the normal group. Currently, she’s pretty much just languishing, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the GL just kicked her because there’s really no point.

While I can understand joining servers to chat with people. joining a guild isn’t a necessary component, and really, have some people ever been in a small 10-man raiding guilds chat? It’s dead a LOT. You won’t be getting some great social experience out of it, honest.

It’s true that our guild chat is certainly not the most active I’ve seen, but I try not to compare it to other guilds I’ve been in (notably, big social RP guilds) because the aims are so different. We’ll banter and make quips back and forth and go quiet for a bit as we focus on whatever we’re doing – or more often, we’ll be on Vent in any case. It’s something we always warn people about when they are applying – the guild might be quieter and less populous than other places they are used to. It’s all about managing expectations. 😀

As one of those social randoms, I want to apologize for any discomfort I contributed to within your ranks! I didn’t realize at the time how much discussion we triggered…my most sincere apologies for being so clueless!

One of the things it seems we can draw from your experiences and those of other readers is, each guild will have to face this question on its own terms. A guild–and perhaps more crucially a raid group within a guild–is a social animal all its own. I’m not sure how you could really make a system for that. I feel your approach of doing what works for your particular group is wisest.

Oh goodness, Lara, you don’t owe anybody any apologies. There wasn’t really much discussion about it at all. It was just something we’d never dealt with before. And yes, the range of responses I’ve gotten is pretty interesting! Everyone has an opinion but any approach has to be tailored to the individual guilds. What works for one big, social guild might not work for another at all.

Given Business Time’s focus (10-man progression) It’s interesting to see that you allow ‘socials’ at all.

Drop Bears (my guild) is a huge (600+ counting alts, 100ish player) guild. We’re mostly a gang who hang together and hate drama. Self appointed raid leaders assemble activities (we have one group that’s actually attempting ‘progression’ which is possible when your bench has > 50 people on it even in a casual guild). 3-5 raids of one kind or another happen a week.
Naturally Drop Bears is perfect haven for socials.

But I’m thinking that BT doesn’t need want socials what it wants is bench raiders.
It seems to me that team should have a few players not on the field but ready to go out when needed. You lucked into this with your Druid/Hunter bench team. But a good coach doesn’t just manage the players on the field they manage the bench.
Maybe that’s too harsh?

No, Roch, it makes a certain amount of sense. We’ve historically shied away from having “bench” players simply because it’s inherently unfair. I know I wouldn’t personally want it – not sure I’d wish it for someone else, too! Obviously for DB it’s different – you guys raid for kicks and are in the guild for social reasons and have so many people to choose from that it’s all good. For us, people start to get antsy if they aren’t scheduled for enough raids. We toyed with the idea of increasing our healer roster from four to five simply to allow for folks not being there but it would mean one healer raids once per week each month, and the healers weren’t too keen on the idea (I certainly couldn’t blame them).

It’s a fine balance! And I guess we really don’t have many social members ultimately – few people bring friends in as socials, although they might encourage them to apply to raid.

Personally, I never saw why having non-raiders in a raiding guild would be frowned upon, assuming they weren’t interfering with raiding or serious Business Time 😉 by spamming gchat or anything during a fight. Even more so now with the benefits that any members brings simply by adding to guild experience!

However, it all comes down to guild comfort. If even one person on a close-knit 10s raiding team is uncomfortable with having socials in the guild, then that’s unquestionably enough reason right there to draw the line and say no. In a guild like yours where the primary focus is raiding, the aims and desires of the raid team have to come first!

Beru’s guild’s method of having a Friends/Family rank that is clearly separate from Raider rank seems like a good idea, especially how F/F members still have to apply like normal to become a raiding member. I can definitely see how having the two mixed could get messy – clearly defining the two ranks is a good idea to avoid such potential drama.

I imagine they’re more of a raiding “ankle warmer,” don’t you? The hooves get in the way. Although Voss did joke once that he could absolutely see Millya making Voss wear “hoof-covers” so she could have quiet while studying, you know – like those things they make you wear over your boots in hospitals and schools sometimes?

Our guild allows non-raiders, but only for exceptional cases really (like raiding veterans retired). I wouldn’t want it any other way, having a large social and nonraiding part in your raid-guild creates a rift between the community imo, no matter how good the intentions are. it’s hard to feel part of a guild when half of them raid together every other night and you don’t.

the other issue we had with nonraiders in the past is them becoming “ghosts” in the guild, whereby hardly anyone knows them and it gets harder and harder to justify that person wearing your guild-tag. so we’re very careful about granting this rank.

Syl, I absolutely know what you mean. I’ve had people ask me, “Who is so-and-so?” about guildies they didn’t even know. I made a concerted effort to get to know all of the people in our guild when I first joined, so oddly I think I knew some folks better than others who had been there longer. I still remember the first time a fellow I’d never raided with before ran a heroic with us and came on Vent! We’d chatted in guild chat before then.

He said in party chat, “Hang on, guys, just eating a chili dog,” and it still cracks me up to this day. I think in a list of foods that are incompatible with instance running, that pretty much takes the cake. He was fun to have around, but disappeared mysteriously a few months ago without a word. I think the “ghosts” is pretty dead-on, even the vanishing in the night part, sadly. 😦

I’ve actually made a point of adding a paragraph to our guild recruitment ad on the realm forums to say that we welcome purely social members as well, because while I’m overall okay with our downsizing to ten-man raiding, it made the guild a lot more quiet and I don’t like that at all.

I’m also biased in favour of social members because I originally started out as a social member myself, getting a guild invite at level 25 purely because I was a friend of a friend. Five years later the friends who originally invited me have all left or stopped playing, but I’m still here, raiding and even in a leadership position.

I do wish we had more people interested in joining us socially, because those who want to be in the guild because they want to be with the people in the guild are more likely to stay loyal than those who “just” want to raid anyway.

That makes sense! I guess it all comes down to what the majority of a guild wants. I personally revel in plenty of gchat and banter, but the folks in our guild tend to be fairly close-knit. That’s okay, and I respect it. It’s all about what’s right for you/your guild, and clearly you were right for your guild all those years ago! 😀

My guild is exactly the opposite. More of a social guild with a raiding problem, really. We have about 400 characters stretching over about 100 active or semi-active accounts, I would say. Almost anyone is welcome to join and hang out, and unless they are a complete dick they can find a home.

I got really, really like with the guild I’m currently in, because it is the most ideal guild I could ever find myself in, both from a goals and from a people respect.
There are at least two rosters for raiding, one for the main characters and one for the alts. However, things are so really so clear-cut as it might seem.
First of all, I happen to be a part of Team 2 with my main, and I’m fully OK with it. I feel no urge to absolutely raid right now, as the content won’t go anywhere as long as I have the right people to enjoy it with.
Also, none of us is under any pressure to gear up fast or to keep a certain pace. We enjoy the game the way we want to, even leveling alts if we feel like it, and when a sufficient number of members ia ready to raid, we do it. We just pug a bit if the need arises. Eventually we will all be at same point since we’re all really on the same page in the end, so it guess that makes us a (rare?) example or a “casually raiding” that actually works. 😉

[…] both the newcomer and their friend. I’m pretty welcoming of social members, really, despite what I wrote about them before – I love having people to chat with in guild, and I think especially in a smaller guild they […]