This contest is to find some rare answers that are probably known only to the more detail savy CB players. I'm looking for (hopefully) solid explanations that don't leave any room for doubt. Examples are a plus.. If you perform research to find answers feel free to post it. I imagine this information will be helpful and enlightening to many players but I'm doing it to finish the last details of my character strategy I've been working on. The person I deem to have best answered my questions will win 60k, and maybe more if they go above and beyond (donations maybe?). I know its not much but know you're helping more than just me here and this can probably be used to update the wiki which seems to be lacking heavily in melee combat details. Detail, detail, detail is a plus (if possible).

1) Does P2H work as a direct hit chance increase or only as a % of base hit chance? For example if two tanks have even dex yielding a 50% hit chance, does a P2H of +10 give 60% or 55% hit chance for the end result?

2) What are the base hit chances on 1H and 2H weapons. I've seen 1H noted as +50% base hit chance but no solid number for 2H though I've seen talk that there is. Do these base hit chance increases (or decreases if 2H?) work irrespective of P2H? My understanding is that in the example of two tanks with even dexterity and 50% hit chance, using a 1H would up that to 75% and THEN P2h, if any, would be applied. Please let me know if this is correct.

3) Please explain as thoroughly as possible how multi-hits work. Include both the dex-based double hit and what is necessary for further hits.

If you raise your dex so the dex gap is large enough - that is the difference between your dex and your opponent - you will hit double strikes. Then if you raise the PTH of your weapons high enough you will get triple strikes. A PTH of a 100 + will give you a guaranteed extra strike - providing your opponent has no evasion or DBs. Additionally if you are wearing a ToA that is large enough you will gain PTH bonus from it. High enough dex + large PTH on your weapon + ToA bonus will give you at certain times QUAD strikes.

Apart from the notification that there was a 50% change in base chance to hit between 1H and 2H weapons (from the 50% chance tanks had at equal dexteirty) Jon has realsed no ohter information.

I guessed that the base chance to hit had been adjusted when facing an opponent of equal dexterity) to 25% with 2H and 75% with 1H, but Jon said that was inccorect.

It could be 50%/100% or 10%/60%...

It used to be the notion that each single +1 Plus To Hit gave a single percent to land an attack seperate to the two allowed by Dexterity. And that this would 'wrap round' at +50 pth, you have a 50% chance to land a hit seperate to the Dex based ones. At +100 you would automatically land a pth attack every round. +101 would give you an automatic attack and 1% to land a second non dex based attack per round. And so on.

This is now in dispute, with claims that the first +50 pth do not give you any chance of landing a pth based hit seperate to your dex based one.

I'm also very interested in finding the answers to your questions, and will provide more prize money to this contest. :)

If anyone taking part in this contest needs a crash test dummy to test with, I'll be more than willing to help. :)

The mythical Quint in action. That hurts. A lot. Although that's some small damage. I shall have to try without my ToE to see what the action really is..... especially as that is the same damage I was doing with UC........

Actually the above is a perfect example of how to get multiple strikes and shows that 5 strikes may not be possible.

Krang has the biggest ToA in the game - over 2 million in level. I'm not sure what the bonus to PTH is from that but a 400k lvl ToA gives you about 45 PTH bonus. He has over a million in dex, compared to my 20, and the Morg is a +177.

1: PTH = is short for percentage to hit. if they have an even DX they have a ~58% chance to hit towards eachother. when they have a +10 weapon they will get a ~68% chance to hit.

2: nobody except jonathan knows this. but 1 handed weapons used to be ~58%.
also from September 2005 changelog:

+ 1H melee weapons now have a 50% higher base chance-to-hit than 2H weapons
+ (1H base to-hit went up; 2H base to-hit went down)
+ this affects how easy it is to get double hits from DX as well

This means that 2 handed weapons could have a 50% base chance to hit and 1 handed weapons a 75% chance to hit.

3: when you have a sufficient DX advantage, which is some 30%, then you get a double hit for DX.
when you have a high enough PTH, you get a chance at a third, fourth or even fifth strike. these PTHs are +1 to +100, +101 to +200 and +201 to +300.
So at a weapon +50 you get a consistent double hit. (at no DX advantage)

4: This is extremely difficult...

char A has a DX advantage before the DBs come into action.
the ELS has a +50 and a rumored base chance to hit of 50%, this would make a triple hit occur. (2 from DX and 1 extra from +100 PTH).

But the mage has +125 DBs which makes the weapon get -125. The ELS is now -75 in effect which affects the tank's DX based chance to hit.

I have done some fights with Freed's character which has 2 pairs of Displacement Boots at +170 and +115.

I deal double hits, without using my ToA when attacking his first minion, which has the +115 displacement boots and 20 DX. my DX however is much higher than the 100k in your example which is the cause of my double hits. With my ToA equipped, I deal triple hits all the time, so the PTH of my ToA should be around the level that it gives enough chance to get over the threshold, which is between +101 and +150. This means that my ToA gives a PTH of at least 50, but less than 100 (~60 could be right i think)

In your example the Displacement boots have a similar effect which would reduce the opponents attacks to 1 and have a small chance at 2 hits.

The difficulty here is the fact that I don't know if the Displacement Boots also give a defensive DX bonus... I don't think they do but if they would then in your example the tank would have a big chance to even miss the mage.

Roenall was giving some interesting numbers yesterday in chat.. Something related to dex based only reaching up to 166% chance to hit on its own.

Also, can someone with a 1H weapon with +50 P2H (and no toa) find out if its capable of triple hits on a no dex minion without evasion/dbs? That would answer some questions for us related to the additional base hit chance 1Hs get.

By the way, anyone who wants to make donations for the prize in this contest send money to Storage Vault. Whatever money he has (currently 60k) at the end of the contest will go to the winner. I think some battle research is in order here. Perhaps someone can find an opponent with equal dex and no other factors, and then try out both a 1H and 2H weapon with zero P2H and compare the hit rates. I'd say this would best be done with a low level character.

"1: PTH = is short for percentage to hit. if they have an even DX they have a ~58% chance to hit towards eachother. when they have a +10 weapon they will get a ~68% chance to hit."

Unless changed form CB1 to CB2 chance to hit from dexterity and percentage to hit from wepaon plus (or ToA) are speerate.

Dex only allows up to two hits, pth allows unlimited hits, seperate to your dex based ones.

In CB1 Even dex gave you a 50% change to hit on a single attack, a +10 wepaon gave your 10% chance to land another single attack. You don't have 60% to land a single hit, you could land two hits .5 * .1 or 0.05% of the time. :)

With the base cth changed in CB2, no one knows what the base chance to hit is with even dex.

"2: nobody except jonathan knows this. but 1 handed weapons used to be ~58%.
also from September 2005 changelog:

+ 1H melee weapons now have a 50% higher base chance-to-hit than 2H weapons
+ (1H base to-hit went up; 2H base to-hit went down)
+ this affects how easy it is to get double hits from DX as well

This means that 2 handed weapons could have a 50% base chance to hit and 1 handed weapons a 75% chance to hit."

It wasn't 58%. Even Dex gave you a 50% chance to hit. If2 handed weapons are still 50% (which they can't be, as Jon stated the chance went down) 1 handed would then be 100% cth versus even dex.

"3: when you have a sufficient DX advantage, which is some 30%, then you get a double hit for DX.
when you have a high enough PTH, you get a chance at a third, fourth or even fifth strike. these PTHs are +1 to +100, +101 to +200 and +201 to +300.
So at a weapon +50 you get a consistent double hit. (at no DX advantage)"

Dex based chance to hit is seperate to weapon based percentage to hit. Unless this has been an undocumented change.

At 50% Cth and +50 pth you get a 100% of landing one hit. With a 25% chance of landing a double hit.

"The difficulty here is the fact that I don't know if the Displacement Boots also give a defensive DX bonus... I don't think they do but if they would then in your example the tank would have a big chance to even miss the mage."

DBs do not give defensive dexterity. That much Jon has stated. They reduce pth on a point for point basis. If they have any pluses left after reduing pth, they then reduce the dex based chance to hit by 1% per point.

To GL:
At 50% Cth and +50 pth you get a 100% of landing one hit. With a 25% chance of landing a double hit. Can you explain how to calculate chance of a double hit.

To Roenall:
Where did you get that dex only allows a peak 166% and 133% CTH? I'm not sure where that comes from or where the evidence is to support that.

Also if double hits requires 200 pts it wouldn't be possible to achieve double hits with no P2H and dex only (which you can do).

To Anyone:
When achieving double hits, triple hits, etc, are the extra attacks guaranteed to hit or can they still miss? Is it whether that "extra attack" hits/misses that determines whether it shows the extra attacks in the battle log? I don't know if I've ever seen multi-hits miss.

With so many people answering differently its hard to nail down the numbers. I think a great way to get ahold of these answers would be for someone to fight a single no-dex minion character with DBs. For example SNK3R. Fight him with various weapons 1H and 2H with different P2H. Make sure to get several battles/swings worth with each weapon to acquire accurate results. Be sure to note how often you managed multi-hits with each weapon. Try not to use a ToA when doing this (as we don't know exactly how much P2H it gives at any given level).

I have done much further testing. Here's the results I have found. Please feel free to critique them. If you disagree with something please give examples to back yourself up as I'm only using real battle evidence to make these claims..

Double hits (or any multi hits) can only come about when you already have a 100% chance to hit with a first swing. Basically I believe it subtracts the needed dex to give you your first 100% hit chance swing, and then uses the remainder to calculate your double hit chance. However that double hit chance only goes to 60-75% max from dex alone. P2H then comes in and can bump your double hit chance up to 100% and then allow triple hits.

The difference between 1H and 2H seems apparent in two ways. For single hits I got ~57% for 2H and ~77% for 1H. Though not perfect, it does suggest around a 50% increased base chance to hit from 1H. However when you venture passed that into the realm of double hits, 2H seems to cap out around ~60% and 1H caps around ~73% without any P2H. Those numbers aren't exact, but what they DO suggest is that the difference between 1H and 2H is most significant for dex for dex calculations, and only a small bonus exists for 1H in allowing double hits (maybe this is just a raw P2H bonus?).

So I think Roenall has it right in the case of dex based chance to hit being 133-166 (Though my #s suggest its more like 160 and 175 but who knows). Against a minion with no dex, you're looking at somewhere around 130-170 "dex based chance to hit" before P2H. So in my specific example of the +50 ELS we'll say he has 170+50 = 220. 220 - 125 = 95% chance of a single strike, no double attacks possible. The only testing enemy I have available is Edyit's NCB character with 111 dbs versus my BoNe with +40 P2H. The formula above seems to accurately reflect the results I get fighting him.

Roe, eaiest way to test that would be to start two 20 Dex characters, and give one of them a +50 weapon. :)

Nerevas;
"Double hits (or any multi hits) can only come about when you already have a 100% chance to hit with a first swing. Basically I believe it subtracts the needed dex to give you your first 100% hit chance swing, and then uses the remainder to calculate your double hit chance. However that double hit chance only goes to 60-75% max from dex alone. P2H then comes in and can bump your double hit chance up to 100% and then allow triple hits."

How did you test that? I'll agree, if you look at just Dex alone, you won't see any double hits, until you have 100% chance to land a single hit. I tested this a while ago with base dex upwards facing 20 dex opponents.

Cth and pth should be seperate. They way they work might have been an undocumented change, but until we proove that, I'm going to assume this still works like it used to in CB1.

CTH and P2H are calculated separately, but still string together. P2H is in fact calculated as a separate hit, but it follows a set of rules as to what its going to be applied to (a single hit, double hit, etc). That's why a 50% CTH with a +10 P2H weapon does not equal a single 60% chance. The 50% will calculate first, and if its a miss, the 10% will then be calculated, thus because they're done separate its slightly less than a straight 60%. However if the 50% CTH succeeds and you hit, the +10P2H will never give you a double hit. As I understand it, if the dex-only CTH *DOES* succeed in landing a first blow (at 50% CTH for example), the P2H will add straight on to the top for the reason of determining extra hits. In this case 50+10 does not equal 100 and no double hit would be possible. So with this theory, if your dex gives you 50% CTH and you have a +51 P2H weapon, you have a 100% chance of a single attack and a 1% chance of a double attack. I tested this with 20 dex vs. dex dex using a 2h weapon with +40 P2H. I've calculated 2H hit rate at even dex to be roughly 57% so 57+40 = Roughly 97% chance of single hit and no double hits. In about 40 hits I never had one double hit, and never missed a single hit.

This is the "set of rules" P2H follows. Multi hits will never kick in until you have 100% chance to hit with the first hit.

Btw if you want to calculate your chances of hitting with a single blow it goes something like this- in the case of my 20 dex vs. 20 dex with a TH+40 P2H. 57% base CTH and 40% P2H. Take the opposite side "chance to miss" from both values- 43% and 60%, and multiply them. For me it comes out to .258, That is my chance to miss both blows. And thus my chance to land one blow is 74.2%. Quite far away from a straight 97%.

Yes, In the case that dex vs. dex CTH successfully lands a first hit, P2H will be added to the top for calculation of multi-hits.

If you have a huge dex advantage and get 100% first hit, and say 50% chance of a double attack. P2H will be added right ontop. Triple hit will not kick in until double hit chance is raised to 100%. Leftover P2H, if any, becomes chance of triple attack. And so on for quad/quint

To Roenall:
Where did you get that dex only allows a peak 166% and 133% CTH? I'm not sure where that comes from or where the evidence is to support that.

REPLY:

My test as been made 2 week ago, the test were made using a 2K dex tank vs a 20 dex char. With a claymore and a loch.The test had 50 round of battle with each weapon.So i believe that my value are inside 5% margin.It possible that 2H actualy have 137% it would fit inside the 50*0.75

To Anyone:
When achieving double hits, triple hits, etc, are the extra attacks guaranteed to hit or can they still miss? Is it whether that "extra attack" hits/misses that determines whether it shows the extra attacks in the battle log? I don't know if I've ever seen multi-hits miss.

REPLY:

Any left over of chance to hit = a % to get a others hit.So there a certain randomness here.A fail ''roll'' will not show in play by play.

Also if double hits requires 200 pts it wouldn't be possible to achieve double hits with no P2H and dex only (which you can do).

REPLY:

That was for triple hit, assuming VS someone you have 564% CTH then you will score 5 hit then you will have 64% chance to score a 6th hit.That were come from the -100/-200..... for every 100 point that a secure hit the the rest is a potential hit.

So I think Roenall has it right in the case of dex based chance to hit being 133-166 (Though my #s suggest its more like 160 and 175 but who knows). Against a minion with no dex, you're looking at somewhere around 130-170 "dex based chance to hit" before P2H. So in my specific example of the +50 ELS we'll say he has 170+50 = 220. 220 - 125 = 95% chance of a single strike, no double attacks possible. The only testing enemy I have available is Edyit's NCB character with 111 dbs versus my BoNe with +40 P2H. The formula above seems to accurately reflect the results I get fighting him.

REPLY:

Once again ill add that there a magical 5% CTH to hit that is add to your total amount of CTH if value is still positive.I think JON have add a fix 5%.

So if we compare our number we get about the same result on 1H but on 2H weapon our result is too far apart so i think my own result were false on the 2H.The good number is prolly 137.5 +5.

I created a base 20 Dex minion to fight other 20 dex minions. Ten fights each (not a lot I know, but enough to get a rough idea).

First I fought with a +0 Whip and landed 19 out of 30 attacks for a hit rate of 63.33% (close enough to the 66% given for me!)

Next, I equipped a named +31 (so +32 pth) VB. I landed 10/10 hits. With no doubles. This seems to me that pth is added to the dex based cth for any attack. 66% (base dex) + 32% (Weapon pth) =98%. Close enough to my 100% considering my tiny sample size. :) If they were seperate, I should have seen at least one double hit, or at least one miss (on two swings).

Lastly, I equipped a +33 Exe. I landed 10 out of 11 hits for a hit rate of 90.90%. Higher than the expected 66% hit rate (33 from dex + 33 from weapon), but i'll attribute that again to my small sample size. :) I didn't get any notification of swinging twice (even if only for misses).

That being said, Dex still *only* counts towards a possible two attacks, I'm sure dex based cth is capped around 150-160%, leading people to say pth doesn't give extra attacks until +50 or so. If you hit the dex cap and have a +30 (or so weapon) you won't see any tripple hits, but will land second hits more often.

Now, if someone would loan me a +135 (or higher!) 1 handed melee weapon, I'll see if you do actually get triple hits at 20 dex versus 20 dex! :D

Another thing to note, the chance to hit for dex gaps isn't linear, but having 10% more dex than your opponent means they have a 10% less chance to hit you.

Next, I equipped a named +31 (so +32 pth) VB. I landed 10/10 hits. With no doubles. This seems to me that pth is added to the dex based cth for any attack. 66% (base dex) + 32% (Weapon pth) =98%. Close enough to my 100% considering my tiny sample size. :) If they were seperate, I should have seen at least one double hit, or at least one miss (on two swings).

REPLY: Dont forget the magical +5% that come out of nowhere.SO your test here would give 103% but as the value is negative for 2nd hit before the add magical bonus i believe that 2nd would be impossible.

Lastly, I equipped a +33 Exe. I landed 10 out of 11 hits for a hit rate of 90.90%. Higher than the expected 66% hit rate (33 from dex + 33 from weapon), but i'll attribute that again to my small sample size. :) I didn't get any notification of swinging twice (even if only for misses).

REPLY:

Check the post i have made yesterday and add the magical 5%.

Now, if someone would loan me a +135 (or higher!) 1 handed melee weapon, I'll see if you do actually get triple hits at 20 dex versus 20 dex! :D

REPLY:

hmm 200 - (66 +135)= 1% and 6% (add the magical 5%)

I think it would be a very great way to test the magical 5% as you could see a triple hit every 20 round or so vs 1 every 100 rounds.

I don't think the bonus works like that. Jon just said it will help land a second hit, which it does.

If originally, it was 50% (base) capped at 150% (and needing +51 to get a 1% chance of landing a third hit), upping the base chance to 63% and capping it at 163% has helped dex increase the chance of landing a second hit. At 163% you would only need +37 pth to allway land two hits, with +38 giving you 1% chance to land a third hit (Compared to +50/+51pth originally). :)

I suggest that you test this GL yourself you will see that the penality or bonus does not apply on triple hit.

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