And here, ladies and gentlemen, is where the real issue is./"dirty camel-jockeys aren't paying their fair share!!!"//doesn't matter if I have a home gym in my garage and couldn't fit a Mini Cooper, much less the Chevy Suburban I have in the garage/snark off

Peki:FTFA: In that case, they should be evaluated and taxed accordingly.

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is where the real issue is./"dirty camel-jockeys aren't paying their fair share!!!"//doesn't matter if I have a home gym in my garage and couldn't fit a Mini Cooper, much less the Chevy Suburban I have in the garage/snark off

vwarb:How about I use the structures on my property in any way I see fit, you "small government" farktards.

How about you move somewhere where there aren't minimal code standards for residential buildings for the incredibly farking obvious goddamned reasons that anyone with half a brain can figure out in half a second, then? I hear Somalia's nice and warm this time of year.

//Seriously, the city is completely, 100% correct in every way on this one. If you want to convert a garage to livable space, you have to essentially actually rebuild it, sorry. The skyrocketing of the fire hazard alone makes just putting in some screen doors and using it as a patio a significant public safety concern, and that's before you get into the risk to actual residents and guests.

//I guess they could pass a law giving the homeowners 100% liability, but, again, one of the biggest concerns is fire, so there's a strong chance the damage would be more than they could pay.

OgreMagi:I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

Race card or not, I hope the garage-porch conversion idea gets a permit process. It seems like an outstanding idea, and a cure for the kind of places where you never see your neighbors, because they drive into the garage at the end of their commute and don't emerge until the next morning.

OgreMagi:I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

It's the muslins that made it a racial thing. I'm still proud of you for sticking it to whitey, though.I'm just surprised that arabs apparently have a "tradition" of living in garages. Must be one of those lost chapters of the Koran.

The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh.

Good thing they don't live in Florida, they'd be taking those away, too.

Bonzo_1116:OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

Race card or not, I hope the garage-porch conversion idea gets a permit process. It seems like an outstanding idea, and a cure for the kind of places where you never see your neighbors, because they drive into the garage at the end of their commute and don't emerge until the next morning.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the garage "patio" conversion. I'm just sick of the cry of racism every time something is different here.

ongbok:OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Perhaps "tradition" was a bad choice of words. As I stated in a follow up, I don't have a problem with using the garage in that way. I'm just tired of the cry of racism for everything. It's not racism. It's building codes.

Your government doesn't want neighbors talking to neighbors. Stay upstairs watching NASCAR or stroking on the porn internet. If you speak w/ people in the neighborhood you'll soon collectively realize you should take it to the streets and burn the mother down. Rich powerful whitey don't want that no sir. Go eat sugar, drink soda, stay indoors sheep.

Some cities will issue a variance for things like this. They should go the permit center and ask if they can have a legal, non-conforming garage conversion. The answer might still be 'no', but it's worth a try.

KrispyKritter:Your government doesn't want neighbors talking to neighbors. Stay upstairs watching NASCAR or stroking on the porn internet. If you speak w/ people in the neighborhood you'll soon collectively realize you should take it to the streets and burn the mother down. Rich powerful whitey don't want that no sir. Go eat sugar, drink soda, stay indoors sheep.

OgreMagi:ongbok: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Perhaps "tradition" was a bad choice of words. As I stated in a follow up, I don't have a problem with using the garage in that way. I'm just tired of the cry of racism for everything. It's not racism. It's building codes.

And I'm sure the city didn't care about this until people started complaining to like minded city council members. And you know why they decided to complain?

So, were any people actually sleeping in any garages? In the article, "Dearborn officials" cite that as a concern, but nowhere in the article does any side claim anyone was actually sleeping in the garage.

Using the garage primarily for socializing in the summer, including cooking on rainy days is pretty standard in the upper midwest. The big midwestern garage is a blessing in winter, but if you're not rich, in the summer it just takes up too much of your space if you don't use it for something.

bindlestiff2600:soa barn which is not designed for human habitation no barn dances?

Permit required, by event, have to be certified by a county inspector for alternate use. Otherwise, no, not legal. If the cert comes back less than the number of attendees, also not legal. Most jurisdictions will send a couple cops to keep an eye on the event too, though usually more for free security at a gathering than actually to count heads.

a car which is not designed for ... etc so if we find someone living in thier car we can put them out?

Yes, living in your car is actually illegal essentially everywhere, unless it's an actual RV. The cops will in fact tell you to GTFO.

camping in backyard now that definetly not designed for

Setting up a tent is legal, but if you start a fire you should be aware of city ordinances and/or county burn bans and so on. This applies to the entire outdoors, not just yards.

If you're living in that tent on a permanent basis, it becomes illegal.

sleep overs does that exceed maximum occupancy?

They can, possibly, yes. Will they? Probably not, the average 2-bedroom apartment is rated for between 40 and 200 people. Yes, there are official numbers issued by the (usually fire) inspector following construction or during the last sale. Yes, even if you live in a private house you inherited from your parents. Might as well learn them at some point, your realtor should have them on file if nothing else.

//Oh, no, people are expected to have basic knowledge of simple, commonplace elements of the law like "where people are allowed to live"? Oh, what farking horror.

OgreMagi:Bonzo_1116: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

Race card or not, I hope the garage-porch conversion idea gets a permit process. It seems like an outstanding idea, and a cure for the kind of places where you never see your neighbors, because they drive into the garage at the end of their commute and don't emerge until the next morning.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the garage "patio" conversion. I'm just sick of the cry of racism every time something is different here.

Just wait a couple of years when some of the Middle Eastern families sell the converted houses...the idea will get to other groups, these guys are getting targeted because they thought of it first. It just feels like racism but it's really more a coincidence.

But I do wonder how many mancaves with couches, a homebuilt wet bar with kegerator and a TV get flagged. It seems like the only real innovation here is the screen door mounted just inside the main garage door.

Jim_Callahan: vwarb: How about I use the structures on my property in any way I see fit, you "small government" farktards.

How about you move somewhere where there aren't minimal code standards for residential buildings for the incredibly farking obvious goddamned reasons that anyone with half a brain can figure out in half a second, then? I hear Somalia's nice and warm this time of year.

Why is the choice always between whatever regulation some government body is proposing/enforcing, and Somalia? It's almost like there's no possible sensible compromise between the two.

People have been using their garages for "living space" for decades - the thing these people did wrong was putting a screen door on the front, thereby making it obvious. Extremes aside (people bunk-bedding their kids out there or something - i dunno), the nanny-state just wants its share of tax revenue.

Jim_Callahan:vwarb: How about I use the structures on my property in any way I see fit, you "small government" farktards.

How about you move somewhere where there aren't minimal code standards for residential buildings for the incredibly farking obvious goddamned reasons that anyone with half a brain can figure out in half a second, then? I hear Somalia's nice and warm this time of year.

//Seriously, the city is completely, 100% correct in every way on this one. If you want to convert a garage to livable space, you have to essentially actually rebuild it, sorry. The skyrocketing of the fire hazard alone makes just putting in some screen doors and using it as a patio a significant public safety concern, and that's before you get into the risk to actual residents and guests.

//I guess they could pass a law giving the homeowners 100% liability, but, again, one of the biggest concerns is fire, so there's a strong chance the damage would be more than they could pay.

So...You're saying that sitting on an old sofa watching TV is a bigger fire hazard than using a metal grinder 5' from a vehicle with 10+ gallons of gasoline in its tank? I don't know what's in your garage but mine's got about half a dozen quarts of oil, a gas powered lawn mower, gas powered brush mower, a couple 5 gallon cans of gas (for said mowers), and two vehicles with 11+ gallon gas tanks. Plus a whole range of power tools with lithium-ion batteries. And a metal grinder. I don't see how replacing all of that stuff with a sofa and a TV increases the fire risk. Seems like it would be significantly decreased.

"The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

Jim_Callahan:vwarb: How about I use the structures on my property in any way I see fit, you "small government" farktards.

How about you move somewhere where there aren't minimal code standards for residential buildings for the incredibly farking obvious goddamned reasons that anyone with half a brain can figure out in half a second, then? I hear Somalia's nice and warm this time of year.

//Seriously, the city is completely, 100% correct in every way on this one. If you want to convert a garage to livable space, you have to essentially actually rebuild it, sorry. The skyrocketing of the fire hazard alone makes just putting in some screen doors and using it as a patio a significant public safety concern, and that's before you get into the risk to actual residents and guests.

//I guess they could pass a law giving the homeowners 100% liability, but, again, one of the biggest concerns is fire, so there's a strong chance the damage would be more than they could pay.

I don't think sliding doors makes a garage "livable space;" nor does a couch and a table used occasionally, or even tile instead of bare concrete. It's just a place to hang out for a while. A bed, a toilet, a shower, a stove... now we're talking "livable space."

All the hubbub is just fear of unknown change. A reasonable ordinance will be worked out.

OgreMagi:Race card or not, I hope the garage-porch conversion idea gets a permit process. It seems like an outstanding idea, and a cure for the kind of places where you never see your neighbors, because they drive into the garage at the end of their commute and don't emerge until the next morning.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the garage "patio" conversion. I'm just sick of the cry of racism every time something is different here.

In this case its not different here, tho. I'm white as shiate, in born and raised in a white as shiate neighborhood in the upper midwest, and people use their garages as patio space all summer long with no problem from anyone. I have no idea if this case is an anti-arab issue or not from one article, but its not irrational for that to be at least a hypothesis.worth testing.

Priapetic:"The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

BarkingUnicorn:Priapetic: "The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

A lot of people think cultures other than their own are worthless to learn about.

ghostfacekillahrabbit:OgreMagi: Race card or not, I hope the garage-porch conversion idea gets a permit process. It seems like an outstanding idea, and a cure for the kind of places where you never see your neighbors, because they drive into the garage at the end of their commute and don't emerge until the next morning.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the garage "patio" conversion. I'm just sick of the cry of racism every time something is different here.

In this case its not different here, tho. I'm white as shiate, in born and raised in a white as shiate neighborhood in the upper midwest, and people use their garages as patio space all summer long with no problem from anyone. I have no idea if this case is an anti-arab issue or not from one article, but its not irrational for that to be at least a hypothesis.worth testing.

-OR- it could be that they could remove the sliding glass doors so a car could be parked inside, and remove any illegal wiring and plumbing, and the problem will be solved.

In the nicest neighborhood around here, where the McMansions run around $450k, everyone hangs out in their garage with the door open, watching football and grilling on the front slab. They all wave at each other and talk about the game. Halloween there is epic. These are all middle class folks, mostly wasps, with a HOA. Generally, the rule is that you can't cook in there or have anyone sleeping in there. But of course they're safe to be in. You park there, do laundry in there, work on cars or build projects... I don't care for the "racist card" when it's uncalled for, but this really just sounds like a bunch of snooty jerks that don't like Arabs in TFA.

AverageAmericanGuy:BarkingUnicorn: Priapetic: "The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

A lot of people think cultures other than their own are worthless to learn about.

Well, if we're going to speculate about Priapetic's thoughts, I'll go with "It's racist." But maybe he'll prove us both wrong, or cruelly leave us on tenterhooks.

KrispyKritter:Your government doesn't want neighbors talking to neighbors. Stay upstairs watching NASCAR or stroking on the porn internet. If you speak w/ people in the neighborhood you'll soon collectively realize you should take it to the streets and burn the mother down. Rich powerful whitey don't want that no sir. Go eat sugar, drink soda, stay indoors sheep.

BarkingUnicorn:AverageAmericanGuy: BarkingUnicorn: Priapetic: "The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

A lot of people think cultures other than their own are worthless to learn about.

Well, if we're going to speculate about Priapetic's thoughts, I'll go with "It's racist." But maybe he'll prove us both wrong, or cruelly leave us on tenterhooks.

I'm not going to label anyone racist based on a post on the internet. But the lack of interest in other countries is a very common trait among the low-bred.

Moonfisher:In the nicest neighborhood around here, where the McMansions run around $450k, everyone hangs out in their garage with the door open, watching football and grilling on the front slab. They all wave at each other and talk about the game. Halloween there is epic. These are all middle class folks, mostly wasps, with a HOA. Generally, the rule is that you can't cook in there or have anyone sleeping in there. But of course they're safe to be in. You park there, do laundry in there, work on cars or build projects... I don't care for the "racist card" when it's uncalled for, but this really just sounds like a bunch of snooty jerks that don't like Arabs in TFA.

The simplest answer is that sliding doors on a garage "don't look right" and so someone from the city must be called to check it out. No racism required, just non-discriminatory fear of change.

AverageAmericanGuy:BarkingUnicorn: AverageAmericanGuy: BarkingUnicorn: Priapetic: "The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

A lot of people think cultures other than their own are worthless to learn about.

Well, if we're going to speculate about Priapetic's thoughts, I'll go with "It's racist." But maybe he'll prove us both wrong, or cruelly leave us on tenterhooks.

I'm not going to label anyone racist based on a post on the internet. But the lack of interest in other countries is a very common trait among the low-bred.

BarkingUnicorn:AverageAmericanGuy: BarkingUnicorn: AverageAmericanGuy: BarkingUnicorn: Priapetic: "The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

A lot of people think cultures other than their own are worthless to learn about.

Well, if we're going to speculate about Priapetic's thoughts, I'll go with "It's racist." But maybe he'll prove us both wrong, or cruelly leave us on tenterhooks.

I'm not going to label anyone racist based on a post on the internet. But the lack of interest in other countries is a very common trait among the low-bred.

I live in upstate NY. Seventy miles north and west of New York City. A refrigerator, a stereo system, cable television are standard in the garage. The grill sits just outside the garage door.. God Bless America.

BarkingUnicorn:Moonfisher: In the nicest neighborhood around here, where the McMansions run around $450k, everyone hangs out in their garage with the door open, watching football and grilling on the front slab. They all wave at each other and talk about the game. Halloween there is epic. These are all middle class folks, mostly wasps, with a HOA. Generally, the rule is that you can't cook in there or have anyone sleeping in there. But of course they're safe to be in. You park there, do laundry in there, work on cars or build projects... I don't care for the "racist card" when it's uncalled for, but this really just sounds like a bunch of snooty jerks that don't like Arabs in TFA.

The simplest answer is that sliding doors on a garage "don't look right" and so someone from the city must be called to check it out. No racism required, just non-discriminatory fear of change.

I doubt it's an issue of aesthetics. I'll bet the building code or municipal code or zoning ordinance require that garages be maintained in a condition which allows a car to be parked inside.

BarkingUnicorn:Priapetic: "The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

Tile, if you do it yourself, can be way cheaper than floor paint. Plus, it's easier to clean a finished floor.

fusillade762:KrispyKritter: Your government doesn't want neighbors talking to neighbors. Stay upstairs watching NASCAR or stroking on the porn internet. If you speak w/ people in the neighborhood you'll soon collectively realize you should take it to the streets and burn the mother down. Rich powerful whitey don't want that no sir. Go eat sugar, drink soda, stay indoors sheep.

Notabunny:I doubt it's an issue of aesthetics. I'll bet the building code or municipal code or zoning ordinance require that garages be maintained in a condition which allows a car to be parked inside.

Again, FTFA: Both even fashioned ramps that allow vehicles to get over the door frames and into the garage.

What we have here is a problem in multi-variant propositional calculus. I propose a meeting of the world's finest philosophical minds to ponder this issue, to produce a solution completed validated by the powers of metaphysics and epistemology, when it can be passed upward though the ranks of the American legal system, and at which point it can be completely ignored by the SCOTUS; it's final decision instead based on bias, arbitrary political leanings, and neo-religious dogma. USA! USA!

Notabunny:BarkingUnicorn: Moonfisher: In the nicest neighborhood around here, where the McMansions run around $450k, everyone hangs out in their garage with the door open, watching football and grilling on the front slab. They all wave at each other and talk about the game. Halloween there is epic. These are all middle class folks, mostly wasps, with a HOA. Generally, the rule is that you can't cook in there or have anyone sleeping in there. But of course they're safe to be in. You park there, do laundry in there, work on cars or build projects... I don't care for the "racist card" when it's uncalled for, but this really just sounds like a bunch of snooty jerks that don't like Arabs in TFA.

The simplest answer is that sliding doors on a garage "don't look right" and so someone from the city must be called to check it out. No racism required, just non-discriminatory fear of change.

I doubt it's an issue of aesthetics. I'll bet the building code or municipal code or zoning ordinance require that garages be maintained in a condition which allows a car to be parked inside.

Garages are made to hold cars that produce all sorts of nice toxic exhaust fumes that get into the walls and woodwork. They also tend to have gas-powered appliances like furnaces and hot water heaters which turn on intermittently and require a good bit of oxygen in the air. Both conditions make the room unsuitable for living quarters.

cyberspacedout:Notabunny: BarkingUnicorn: Moonfisher: In the nicest neighborhood around here, where the McMansions run around $450k, everyone hangs out in their garage with the door open, watching football and grilling on the front slab. They all wave at each other and talk about the game. Halloween there is epic. These are all middle class folks, mostly wasps, with a HOA. Generally, the rule is that you can't cook in there or have anyone sleeping in there. But of course they're safe to be in. You park there, do laundry in there, work on cars or build projects... I don't care for the "racist card" when it's uncalled for, but this really just sounds like a bunch of snooty jerks that don't like Arabs in TFA.

The simplest answer is that sliding doors on a garage "don't look right" and so someone from the city must be called to check it out. No racism required, just non-discriminatory fear of change.

I doubt it's an issue of aesthetics. I'll bet the building code or municipal code or zoning ordinance require that garages be maintained in a condition which allows a car to be parked inside.

Garages are made to hold cars that produce all sorts of nice toxic exhaust fumes that get into the walls and woodwork. They also tend to have gas-powered appliances like furnaces and hot water heaters which turn on intermittently and require a good bit of oxygen in the air. Both conditions make the room unsuitable for living quarters.

Pokey.Clyde:Notabunny: I doubt it's an issue of aesthetics. I'll bet the building code or municipal code or zoning ordinance require that garages be maintained in a condition which allows a car to be parked inside.

Again, FTFA: Both even fashioned ramps that allow vehicles to get over the door frames and into the garage.

Notabunny:Pokey.Clyde: Notabunny: I doubt it's an issue of aesthetics. I'll bet the building code or municipal code or zoning ordinance require that garages be maintained in a condition which allows a car to be parked inside.

Again, FTFA: Both even fashioned ramps that allow vehicles to get over the door frames and into the garage.

BarkingUnicorn:AverageAmericanGuy:A lot of people think cultures other than their own are worthless to learn about.

Well, if we're going to speculate about Priapetic's thoughts, I'll go with "It's racist." But maybe he'll prove us both wrong, or cruelly leave us on tenterhooks.

I think it's best to assume he's planning a genocide right now against the mud races. I can't see anything else in those words of his. Hope he doesn't have a cooking show because I'm writing an e-mail to Wolf Blitzer right now.

OgreMagi:ongbok: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Perhaps "tradition" was a bad choice of words. As I stated in a follow up, I don't have a problem with using the garage in that way. I'm just tired of the cry of racism for everything. It's not racism. It's building codes.

It's not "building codes," though. It's...maybe not racism, but something. If people have a problem with other people hanging out in garages with their friends and they're going to say it's "building codes"--then they need to come by my upper-middle-class white-on-white neighborhood and see all the people who have converted their garages into man-caves or TV rooms or pool rooms (I mean billiards rooms) or places for the kids to hang out so they don't drive the parents nuts in the summer...and then explain why teh Mooslims doing the same is suddenly such a health risk/building code violation/whatever but when the WASP neighbors did it it was no biggie.

Gyrfalcon:OgreMagi: ongbok: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Perhaps "tradition" was a bad choice of words. As I stated in a follow up, I don't have a problem with using the garage in that way. I'm just tired of the cry of racism for everything. It's not racism. It's building codes.

It's not "building codes," though. It's...maybe not racism, but something. If people have a problem with other people hanging out in garages with their friends and they're going to say it's "building codes"--then they need to come by my upper-middle-class white-on-white neighborhood and see all the people who have converted their garages into man-caves or TV rooms or pool rooms (I mean billiards rooms) or places for the kids to hang out so they don't drive the parents nuts in the summer...and then explain why teh Mooslims doing the same is suddenly such a health risk/building code violation/whatever but when the WASP neighbors did it it was no biggie.

It is building codes. That's what the inspector who issued the stop work order is enforcing.

Its amazing what you can and can not do to your own house with out permission from the govt, in this case it seems they are better off going after the roads and parking laws to force change I would think

Notabunny:In addition to the whole habitable space issue, Dearborn's zoning ordinance says, "An area designated as required off-street parking shall not be changed to any other use unless equal facilities are provided elsewhere in accordance with the provisions of this ordinance." (Article 4.00 A3 and B2)

If i am reading that correctly they cant change parking unless they provide a new spots?

ghostfacekillahrabbit:So, were any people actually sleeping in any garages? In the article, "Dearborn officials" cite that as a concern, but nowhere in the article does any side claim anyone was actually sleeping in the garage.

Using the garage primarily for socializing in the summer, including cooking on rainy days is pretty standard in the upper midwest. The big midwestern garage is a blessing in winter, but if you're not rich, in the summer it just takes up too much of your space if you don't use it for something.

Around here any work done on a house without a permit can be disastrous if there is a call made to your insurance company. Basically any fires with non permit work done in the house gives the insurance company the ability to not pay out. Biggest concern with that is if you buy a place where there has happened. When I bought my place there was title insurance I got which more or less nullifies any prior work and if there is any found that could fall into it and work needs to be done it will be covered.

Other big issue I could see is it would probably decrease your resale value when you try to sell since you basically limit who will buy your house. Personally I wouldn't I need a garage to store my grinder and welder which annoys the crap out of my neighbors :)/actually no one has complained and I try to be respectful of time when doing it.

Gyrfalcon:OgreMagi: ongbok: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Perhaps "tradition" was a bad choice of words. As I stated in a follow up, I don't have a problem with using the garage in that way. I'm just tired of the cry of racism for everything. It's not racism. It's building codes.

It's not "building codes," though. It's...maybe not racism, but something. If people have a problem with other people hanging out in garages with their friends and they're going to say it's "building codes"--then they need to come by my upper-middle-class white-on-white neighborhood and see all the people who have converted their garages into man-caves or TV rooms or pool rooms (I mean billiards rooms) or places for the kids to hang out so they don't drive the parents nuts in the summer...and then explain why teh Mooslims doing the same is suddenly such a health risk/building code violation/whatever but when the WASP neighbors did it it was no biggie.

I think the word we are looking for is bigotry. As many up thread have noted, lots of folks do stuff non-car related in the part of their house noted to be the garage. The things they do may be sitting around the old busted couch, watching TV and popping a cold one or two, which sounds a lot like what the immigrants are doing. The problem is it doesn't look the same to the bigots, so it must be stopped. And when you don't have right on your side, cry government.

The other fear is that if it is not stopped, eventually, there will be extended family members moving in, and living in the garage because it is still nicer than whatever hellhole they moved away from. Then, someone leaves a candle going, or a unventilated heat source, a fire breaks out,and a bunch of people die. Most of us do not look at our garages and think, "this is a palace, and we are safe from bandits." But, I would be willing to bet a lot of immigrants do.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather the government was less intrusive in our lives, not more intrusive, and the only way that's going to happen is if we say no to further intrusion even if it doesn't impact us directly. Yes, I do consider the govt. telling us what we can or can't do on our own property when it doesn't hurt anyone else.

"Errigo doesn't think having a spare refrigerator in the garage is a problem, but he doesn't want the structures to become crash pads or places where meals are prepared. In that case, they should be evaluated and taxed.."

WHAT. DA. fark.Why tax them. Where did that come from? Sadly, in the it will come down to a use redefinition for tax purposes.

If she would have simply put one of those standing red toolboxes with drawers in the corner, the city would have got it. Instead of simply refinishing the floor, putting put tin signs, a fridge, maybe a small wet bar, a sofa and a flat screen with a toolbox in the corner she would have gotten away with it.

Instead she has to repurpose it for something exotic instead of changing the spark plugs and having a beer, and she leave it open for the world to see with funny doors facing the street.

Now garages in Dearborn will be like basements and if make them a part of your home, expect to pay more in taxes.

Errigo doesn't think having a spare refrigerator in the garage is a problem, but he doesn't want the structures to become crash pads or places where meals are prepared. In that case, they should be evaluated and taxed accordingly.

ongbok:OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Well as long as you ignore the problems of more crowded street parking, peopel using areas not up to code as living spaces, and avoiding taxes on those living spaces.

My neighbors across the street are constantly sitting in their garage to smoke so I'm getting a kick out of these replies...

Seriously though, while it's kinda creepy to be watched 90% of the time when I go out to my front yard I'm not gonna complain to the county council about it. Even if they did just put up what equates to a XXXL "Magic Mesh"./still creeps the wife and I out

I'm all in favor of letting people use their structures in whatever reasonable way they want, but...

Now, city officials are looking at changing an ordinance on garage use, arguing that as people get a little too comfortable hanging out in the garage, more cars are clogging side streets.

...this is a legitimate nuisance, especially when it's time to plow or clean the streets. Instead of trying to dig out the private behaviors that are leading to the public problem, though, it would probably be better to pass ordinances that target the abuse of on-street parking directly rather than ordinances that try to control what people are doing in the garage.

We have similar problems with student rentals in our city, and, yeah, it can be a mess when some inconsiderate assholes have three or four cars parked up your two-lane side street. You get a two or three houses on the same block with that problem, and next thing you know, traffic is slowing down to wiggle through and people in households with two cars but one spot in the garage are parking blocks away from their own homes.

This is a common problem. My sister and her husband bought a house that it turned out had an "illegally" converted garage. They found out it was "illegal" when they were checking on paperwork and/or reduction in taxes for converting it back from living space to a garage.

I guess people dont know about Dearborn and that there are a crap ton of arabs there. If they thought they were being discriminated against they could always just vote the people doing it out of office. They do make up around 43% of the population of the city.

Mentalpatient87:But GUYS! A fire might break out and those poor people would be trapped in the part of the house with the biggest,easiest to open doors!

Not weighing in on whether people starting a fire is a valid concern or not, but it's not about those poor people who started the fire escaping, it's about neighbors whose homes will be set on fire if it spreads and firefighters who might be injured or killed putting out a fire that might not have started if the space had been up to code.

Go look at a map, or even just out the window in the picture in the article. These people aren't out in the sticks with a quarter mile to the next structure. If some jag sets his garage on fire, his neighbor is going to need new siding, at the very least.

freewill:Mentalpatient87: But GUYS! A fire might break out and those poor people would be trapped in the part of the house with the biggest,easiest to open doors!

Not weighing in on whether people starting a fire is a valid concern or not, but it's not about those poor people who started the fire escaping, it's about neighbors whose homes will be set on fire if it spreads and firefighters who might be injured or killed putting out a fire that might not have started if the space had been up to code.

Go look at a map, or even just out the window in the picture in the article. These people aren't out in the sticks with a quarter mile to the next structure. If some jag sets his garage on fire, his neighbor is going to need new siding, at the very least.

How is that different than if the other end of the house caught fire? "They wouldn't be in the garage, possibly causing fires" is the kind of hypothetical, worry wart bullshiat that usually gets dismissed around here.

ghostfacekillahrabbit:So, were any people actually sleeping in any garages? In the article, "Dearborn officials" cite that as a concern, but nowhere in the article does any side claim anyone was actually sleeping in the garage.

Using the garage primarily for socializing in the summer, including cooking on rainy days is pretty standard in the upper midwest. The big midwestern garage is a blessing in winter, but if you're not rich, in the summer it just takes up too much of your space if you don't use it for something.

People down here in NC convert their garages into extra bedrooms/dens all the time. There are several in my neighborhood in fact. Sure they've got to put in extra insulation in the walls and some more wiring for outlets, take out the garage door and frame up the opening, but so what? It's a fairly inexpensive way to add a big room onto your house if you don't mind losing the storage space and parking your car in the weather. Sounds like Detroit is just upset that they aren't getting their "cut" in the way of taxes for people using a non-living space for living purposes.

liam76:ongbok: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Well as long as you ignore the problems of more crowded street parking, peopel using areas not up to code as living spaces, and avoiding taxes on those living spaces.

Well then what about the people that keep so much junk in their garages that they can't park their cars there? Are they not contributing to the "parking problem" on the street? I bet that is causing more parking on the street than people using their garages as a hang out place. As far as the living space issue, nowhere in the article do they say anybody was using it to sleep in, they were just using it as a place to hang out in. And if the tax issues was such a big deal the city would offer them a solution to remedy that, which they aren't.

Lots of folks around here hang out in the garage OR barn. I know folks that have kitchens and bathrooms in their barns. Nice, LEGAL kitchens and bathrooms, not dumps. It's quite common, all over the country.

Peki:FTFA: In that case, they should be evaluated and taxed accordingly.

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is where the real issue is./"dirty camel-jockeys aren't paying their fair share!!!"//doesn't matter if I have a home gym in my garage and couldn't fit a Mini Cooper, much less the Chevy Suburban I have in the garage/snark off

Mentalpatient87:How is that different than if the other end of the house caught fire? "They wouldn't be in the garage, possibly causing fires" is the kind of hypothetical, worry wart bullshiat that usually gets dismissed around here.

I don't know how else to explain this to you. The city is arguing that the building codes for garages are inferior to the building codes for living spaces, which is why they won't write permits for this. That's how it's different: they're arguing that a fire in the garage is more likely to burn the house, not to mention the damn neighborhood, down, and that sitting in there six hours a day smoking hookahs makes it a whole lot more likely to happen. Smoking and cooking are quite possibly the two most prominent causes of house fires, and there's a different between doing that in a part of the home that was built to anticipate that risk instead of slapping a sliding door on the farking garage and doing it in there.

Now, I could point out that somebody welding in his garage next to a cabinet full of flammable chemicals also makes that a lot more likely to happen, and I don't see the city going apeshiat about that. (Maybe they do, I don't know.) However, pretending like you're completely mystified by their concern is ridiculous.

ongbok:Well then what about the people that keep so much junk in their garages that they can't park their cars there? Are they not contributing to the "parking problem" on the street? I bet that is causing more parking on the street than people using their garages as a hang out place.

Totally, and that's why a sane response to that problem would be to design and enforce some sensible on-street parking rules to go after this directly and let everybody deal with it as they like.

Separately, I don't really care what they're doing with the garage and I don't see why anybody else should, either, as long as it's up to code. I only glossed over the article and it didn't seem too clear on exactly what's going on here (conflicting claims), but I got the impression that the city feels it just isn't up to code, or else they'd be more than happy to write a permit for the conversion and collect new tax revenue on the improvement accordingly.

Pokey.Clyde:Notabunny: Meh. If you want to convert your garage into living space, get the permits and inspections. Ta-da!

FTFA: They say the structures aren't meant to be living spaces, so building permits can't be issued to convert them.

You were saying?

The reality says the would be permit issuers are just lazy and don't want another hassle so just put a blanket ban on any conversion. Look around the world guys, you can convert damn near anything into a safe, habitable structure.

It must be about race because every white person does the same thing and no one ever get's in trouble!!!

I'd like to think we can give the city SOME benefit of the doubt here if for no other reason than to play devil's advocate. Maybe the enforcement issue came up because of some bigoted neighbor or some such, but we're talking about structural changes to an existing building. Everyone up thread is talking about how this good ole boy network is immune to code enforcement... but that's just not the case. Moving a bunch of crap into your garage is one thing, but when you start adding design elements that make it "look" like a habitable space you're going to raise red flags.

When someone sues the city because their poor little such and such got roasted alive in a converted garage, the city can only take the "we just didn't know" excuse so far. A good lawyer is going to point out the fancy sliding doors on the place and say the city should have known and da da da.

Try replacing the your garage door with a sliding glass door and see how far you get. Sure, you might get away with it for a while until someone actually notifies code enforcement. Around here, the first thing anyone is going to think is "illegal apartment rental".

Pull any mention of ethnicity out of this article and it becomes such a non-story it wouldn't event have printed.

ongbok:liam76: ongbok: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Well as long as you ignore the problems of more crowded street parking, peopel using areas not up to code as living spaces, and avoiding taxes on those living spaces.

Well then what about the people that keep so much junk in their garages that they can't park their cars there? Are they not contributing to the "parking problem" on the street? I bet that is causing more parking on the street than people using their garages as a hang out place. As far as the living space issue, nowhere in the article do they say anybody was using it to sleep in, they were just using it as a place to hang out in. And if the tax issues was such a big deal the city would offer them a solution to remedy that, which they aren't.

They may be contributing just as much to the parking problem, but there is no way to know without inspecting garages. Also people don't find about somebody elses trash filled garage and say, hey that is neat, lets do that. So now we have a problem where we can actually see ti fromt he street and it is spreading.

I said "living space" not "sleeping" space. FTA,They migrated over time to the garage as an extension of the living place, and here comes the complaint from people who don't have that as part of their tradition," said Nabeel Abraham, a Dearborn resident

ongbok:And if the tax issues was such a big deal the city would offer them a solution to remedy that, which they aren't

They have a solution. Rebuild it up to code. Although I am pretty sure the official is full of shiat by saying they can't be re-purposed simply by inspection. All the recent houses I have seen built in the bowels of MD where I live have garages that they market as finishable (maybe it is a local thing, or just readjusting for man caves).

Mentalpatient87:But GUYS! A fire might break out and those poor people would be trapped in the part of the house with the biggest,easiest to open doors!

/freedom

except that in the article, they took down the garage door (which, BTW, is not an acceptable means of egress) and replaced it (doing the work without a permit) with a sliding glass door (which is also not an acceptable means of egress).

This article isnt about "hanging out" in the garage, it's about improperly using a non-habitable space.

The first issue, as the article brought up, is that it creates a parking issue. When a developer is given permission to build, often, that developer is asked to provide X number of off-street parking space. And this takes that away.

Second, while this might be used as a living room now, what if in a few years they decide to just use it as a bedroom, or a rental suite? Now you have a zoning issue as well, and more people on the property than intended. This strains the blocks infrastructure (sewer, power, etc) as it as more users on it than intended.

I remember when I lived in Bolingbrook, my neighborhood had an ordinance stating that You had to park you car in the garage if there was a space. You couldn't use your garage as a storage area and park your car on the driveway or street. At the time, I thought it was a little on the draconian side. However, I have since moved to a neighborhood in Cedar Park where the roads are essentially choked down to one lane due to everyone parking their cars on the street. Out here, the garage is apparently glorified storage.

So, if a neighborhood decides it wants to pass an ordinance like this to keep their streets functional, I have no problem with it.

liam76:ongbok: liam76: ongbok: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

What tradition are you talking about? Hanging out on your property having a good time? You see this type of stuff all of the time. A group of people will complain when they see another group that they don't approve of having a good time in a manner that they don't approve of, even if that group isn't causing any problems.

Well as long as you ignore the problems of more crowded street parking, peopel using areas not up to code as living spaces, and avoiding taxes on those living spaces.

Well then what about the people that keep so much junk in their garages that they can't park their cars there? Are they not contributing to the "parking problem" on the street? I bet that is causing more parking on the street than people using their garages as a hang out place. As far as the living space issue, nowhere in the article do they say anybody was using it to sleep in, they were just using it as a place to hang out in. And if the tax issues was such a big deal the city would offer them a solution to remedy that, which they aren't.

They may be contributing just as much to the parking problem, but there is no way to know without inspecting garages. Also people don't find about somebody elses trash filled garage and say, hey that is neat, lets do that. So now we have a problem where we can actually see ti fromt he street and it is spreading.

I said "living space" not "sleeping" space. FTA,They migrated over time to the garage as an extension of the living place, and here comes the complaint from people who don't have that as part of their tradition," said Nabeel Abraham, a Dearborn residentongbok: And if the tax issues was such a big deal the city would offer them a solution to remedy that, which they aren't

They have a solution. Rebuild it up to code. Although I am pretty sure the official is full of shiat b ...

You didn't read the article did you? If you did you would have seen this.

They say the structures aren't meant to be living spaces, so building permits can't be issued to convert them.

That is why I said if the tax issue was such a big deal, they would have created a process to issue permits to convert them.

liam76:If you ever plan on having it insured I would look into local building codes and the inspection process.

Yeah. Its actually going to be a "project barn". It is starting out as a pole barn with a gambrel roof for storage space and concrete (and plumbed and electricity ran to it). After that, I am going to attempt to learn framing walls and putting up drywall for the clean project room (I wanted a separate room for delicate machines and computer away from the dusty dirty garage) and the lounge. I have some carpenter friends who I can squeeze information out of, and get it inspected along the way.

Plus, I can get my children involved in the process, and give them some practical skills.

Wow. This is one time I expected Fark to be on the brown folks side, but I guess I should know better. Brown people are always bad here and everything brown folks do is suspect or just pain unnatural. Geesh.

Seriously - I'm sure plenty of Farkers have converted a garage into their man/cave and I'm pretty sure very few got a building permit to do it. It just happens over time. So what these folks are using it as an unofficial rumpus room.

Hermione_Granger:Seriously - I'm sure plenty of Farkers have converted a garage into their man/cave and I'm pretty sure very few got a building permit to do it. It just happens over time. So what these folks are using it as an unofficial rumpus room.

Big effing deal.

As somebody else said above, it's one thing when you do this secretly, but if you take your garage door off and put a sliding glass door on, the code inspector is probably going to farking notice that and ask about it.

ongbok:You didn't read the article did you? If you did you would have seen this.

Why did you think I said I thought the city official was full of shiat, if not to counter that line?

ongbok:That is why I said if the tax issue was such a big deal, they would have created a process to issue permits to convert them

There is a process, rebuild them. However if it is as I suspect the city official was talking out of their ass and all they need to do is redo the electrical wiriing throw up some insulation, and put in two fire exits.

Wow. TFA sets raises the bar on hyperbole. Just dripping with it. I am okay with making folks get their goddamn cars off the street if they have a home with a driveway there. Otherwise, it is their goddamned garage. Naturalization was given up on about 23 years ago. Same with all of you "ooh look a cute ranch" that bought some re-gentrified WW2 shoebox house with a poorly laid out driveway so you park on the street and cause congestion. Hope all of your sideview mirrors "fall off". Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 times but folks figure it out. You can't underestimate the level of care when they are directly affected. Not the same level of care that asking them like a nice person or even notes that explain the problem of parking your car at a 4way stop. A 250 deductible will, apparently. My weekly rant about on street parking and being considerate is done.

It's the muslins that made it a racial thing. I'm still proud of you for sticking it to whitey, though.I'm just surprised that arabs apparently have a "tradition" of living in garages. Must be one of those lost chapters of the Koran.

They have a strong social tradition that nuclear families and SFRs don't really accommodate very well. And yes, there are parts of the Koran that dictate socializing. Each meal that breaks the fast each day during Ramadan, and the final feast at the end, are each supposed to be taken in community, with other Muslims, not just by yourself. That's part of Ramadan.

/Non-Muslim white girl here, just educated//thinks it's more about the money than the race card anyway

freewill:I don't know how else to explain this to you. The city is arguing that the building codes for garages are inferior to the building codes for living spaces, which is why they won't write permits for this. That's how it's different: they're arguing that a fire in the garage is more likely to burn the house, not to mention the damn neighborhood, down, and that sitting in there six hours a day smoking hookahs makes it a whole lot more likely to happen.

Well, it's a good thing those normal people in the white neighborhoods with restrictive HOAs prevent people from putting anything in their garages which could possibly catch fire.

Wouldn't want anything flammable in the garage since it's such a fire hazard.

I'm with other people here. I have power tools and gasoline in my garage. I defy someone to explain how a water pipe is more hazardous than that.

I suppose I'm late to the party, but doesn't Dearborn follow the general Detroit-area model of detached garages behind the house? If so, there would typically be plenty of driveway parking to avoid street parking issues - but if there is a street parking issue it should be dealt with as such.

Parking aside, I can see two arguments against allowing garages as social settings - using the garage as a habitation (sleeping there) and using it for open-flame cooking (grilling). Unless these people are doing so, leave them alone. Sliding doors, tables and chairs, even TVs don't affect anyone except those who live there.

Gotta love Fark; this thread is largely lambasting those dirty immigrants for thinking they can sit around in their garages smoking, and praising gummint for using those code rules to keep people from smoking in their garages; meanwhile, there's a story on the front page about companies cracking down on employee smoking, and Farkers are losing their frickin' minds.

This seems like an odd thing to get worked up about. People aren't very neighborly in a lot of places, and front porches and improvised garage hangouts seem like a good way to meet your neighbors.

I know growing up some folks down the block would convert their garage into a kind of sun room (when it wasn't the brutal winter when you needed your garage for parking) and it did kind of serve as an impromptu gathering place for the neighborhood kids.

theMightyRegeya:Gotta love Fark; this thread is largely lambasting those dirty immigrants for thinking they can sit around in their garages smoking, and praising gummint for using those code rules to keep people from smoking in their garages; meanwhile, there's a story on the front page about companies cracking down on employee smoking, and Farkers are losing their frickin' minds.

Actually, it is more in support of communities deciding that there's potential code and public safety concerns with people living in spaces that arent designed for it and that cars which should be parked in the garages are choking off the streets

The "Dirty immigrants" part is added by racist assholes like yourself.

theMightyRegeya:Well, it's a good thing those normal people in the white neighborhoods with restrictive HOAs prevent people from putting anything in their garages which could possibly catch fire.

It's a good thing I didn't mention that in the very next sentence, too, right?

Seriously, though, while garage fires are not uncommon, smoking-related fires are a fark of a lot more common. How many cars have you seen burst into flames in a garage? The chemicals you keep in your garage will ordinarily need something to get them going, and your hookah, well, that could be just perfect, as could introducing a heater into what would otherwise not be a climate-controlled space.

Regardless, if it's not up to code, it's not up to code. Rejecting a permit application for it should be a non-controversy, and it has nothing to do with a restrictive HOA or what's "normal". (The parking issue is a separate but completely valid one.)

OgreMagi:Bonzo_1116: OgreMagi: I'm getting tired of people pulling out that racist card every time some old world tradition collides with our modern world.

Race card or not, I hope the garage-porch conversion idea gets a permit process. It seems like an outstanding idea, and a cure for the kind of places where you never see your neighbors, because they drive into the garage at the end of their commute and don't emerge until the next morning.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the garage "patio" conversion. I'm just sick of the cry of racism every time something is different here.

FTA:"I think it's a class, ethnic reaction."

I don't see a single mention of the term "racism" in the article, in fact the only person obsessing about race is yourself.

ghostfacekillahrabbit:So, were any people actually sleeping in any garages? In the article, "Dearborn officials" cite that as a concern, but nowhere in the article does any side claim anyone was actually sleeping in the garage.

Using the garage primarily for socializing in the summer, including cooking on rainy days is pretty standard in the upper midwest. The big midwestern garage is a blessing in winter, but if you're not rich, in the summer it just takes up too much of your space if you don't use it for something.

I have no problem with using the garage as a hang out, but the concern here is those people who have cars and don't use their garages for that, instead leaving their cars outside while using their garages for other purposes.

AverageAmericanGuy:BarkingUnicorn: Priapetic: "The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

A lot of people think cultures other than their own are worthless to learn about.

Done in one.

I think the city has lost it on this. So what if they are socializing in their garage? Big deal! Hell, I wouldn't mind hanging out with them. I wish the weather was cool enough for me to do that here in Austin. Hell, this makes me wonder how the city handles garage sales...

BarkingUnicorn:Priapetic: "The garages are a continuation of marathon socializing sessions that started many years ago in their home countries under shady trees, often accompanied by coffee and a water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh. "

What's your problem with interesting bit of cultural background? It gives me a good mental picture of what the garage gatherings are like. I was wondering why anyone would tile the floor of a garage and put sliding doors on it. "Marathon socializing" makes sense.

No problem with their culture. But I expect the majority of people described in the article who are socializing aren't using a "water pipe, known as a hookah or argileh". How about we just say they're from a very social culture and leave it at that? If the majority of the people described in the aricle ARE firing up the water pipe, then fine, it adds clarity to the situation. Or if the majority of people in their original culture do gather around a water pipe, again, fine. But I suspect that's not the case, and the resulting mental picture the writer is giving you is not consistent with the cultural reality. In other words, a stereotype.

freewill:LemSkroob: a sliding glass door (which is also not an acceptable means of egress).

Wait, really?

Yes. Most building codes state that only swinging doors are considered acceptable on a path of egress. The reason being that you want doors that are to be used in an emergency to be of the most common type, so that during a panicked situation, people don't have any delay. Sliding glass doors also usually have a lower track along the bottom, which can be a trip hazard. Again, not something you want in the way during a quick escape.

For public buildings, the rules are even tighter. they can only swing out (can't swing in, can't be a slider, roll-up door, or a revolving door, etc.), have to have panic hardware, are not lockable from the inside, height and width, and they even specify the amount of force that is required to open the door.

For residential doors, like in this case, they care about quantity and type, but less so on things like swing direction (since the # of occupants is lower, and won't cause a "traffic jam" when trying to pull it open).

Peki:Peki: FTFA: In that case, they should be evaluated and taxed accordingly.

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is where the real issue is./"dirty camel-jockeys aren't paying their fair share!!!"//doesn't matter if I have a home gym in my garage and couldn't fit a Mini Cooper, much less the Chevy Suburban I have in the garage/snark off

That was supposed to read driveway.

Really? Next to my house, the most valuable items I own are vehicles. I'm absolutely going to park them in the garage instead of leaving them outside in the elements.

freewill:and there's a different between doing that in a part of the home that was built to anticipate that risk instead of slapping a sliding door on the farking garage and doing it in there.

So a kitchen or a living room will somehow be less on fire than the garage? I understand that this is how the codes are written. I'm well aware that people interpret the situation that way. I'm arguing that's it's a load of busybody bullshiat. If you see people hanging out in their garage or even going so far as to modify their house a bit and the first thing you start thinking and/or wailing about is "they're gonna burn down the WORLD!" you need to pull the stick out of your ass and mind your own business.

Mentalpatient87:So a kitchen or a living room will somehow be less on fire than the garage? I understand that this is how the codes are written. I'm well aware that people interpret the situation that way. I'm arguing that's it's a load of busybody bullshiat. If you see people hanging out in their garage or even going so far as to modify their house a bit and the first thing you start thinking and/or wailing about is "they're gonna burn down the WORLD!"

The other day, a rookie cop accidentally shot a loved one's house. In the front of the house, where she was sitting. He pretty much had to break every core rule of firearm safety to do it the way he did it. When you see somebody mishandling a firearm, your first thought isn't "HE'S GOING TO KILL EVERYBODY", but if you can't admit that an innocent person is eventually going to die needlessly if we let all the individual cases of people ignoring those simple and well-considered rules slide, you're being profoundly dishonest.

Likewise, that's not even close to the first thing I'd think about any isolated case of some dude smoking hookahs in his garage, but if you let people use garages as living spaces across the city, it's going to happen eventually. Most people will never have their house burn down, but the purpose of the relevant portions of building cods is to make it less deadly for everybody involved if they do. Fires that spread to other structures are a valid concern, and one goal is to reduce the occurrence of those fires in the first place.

As for the kitchen or living room being "less on fire", no, they'll be equally on fire, but if they're up to code, they'll be less likely to catch on fire in the first place, easier to escape from, and properly designed so that there's hopefully nothing in place that will make the situation more dangerous than it has to be.

The bottom line is that if their use of the space was up to code, all they had to do was go get a permit for the conversion and have it properly inspected. Instead, when some rocket surgeon does leave his falafel on the hot plate too long and manage to ignite whatever chemicals they're still storing in the garage, everybody else is disproportionately subsidizing the cost of hospitalizing the firefighter injured trying to keep it from burning down the neighbors' house because they weren't paying their taxes on the improvement in the first place. Then there's the poor asshole who buys the house and finds out an addition was unlawful, and if he wants to do anything to it, he may have to go back and fix all their shiat and even take them to court to get it straightened out.

The people reporting it may be busybodies, but the people they're reporting are straight up in the wrong. There's no quiet nobility in ignoring the building code. They aren't hiding Anne Frank from the Nazis in that garage. They're just too lazy and cheap to do the job properly, and they got caught. The violin, it is so tiny.

freewill:Mentalpatient87: So a kitchen or a living room will somehow be less on fire than the garage? I understand that this is how the codes are written. I'm well aware that people interpret the situation that way. I'm arguing that's it's a load of busybody bullshiat. If you see people hanging out in their garage or even going so far as to modify their house a bit and the first thing you start thinking and/or wailing about is "they're gonna burn down the WORLD!"

The other day, a rookie cop accidentally shot a loved one's house. In the front of the house, where she was sitting. He pretty much had to break every core rule of firearm safety to do it the way he did it. When you see somebody mishandling a firearm, your first thought isn't "HE'S GOING TO KILL EVERYBODY", but if you can't admit that an innocent person is eventually going to die needlessly if we let all the individual cases of people ignoring those simple and well-considered rules slide, you're being profoundly dishonest.

Likewise, that's not even close to the first thing I'd think about any isolated case of some dude smoking hookahs in his garage, but if you let people use garages as living spaces across the city, it's going to happen eventually. Most people will never have their house burn down, but the purpose of the relevant portions of building cods is to make it less deadly for everybody involved if they do. Fires that spread to other structures are a valid concern, and one goal is to reduce the occurrence of those fires in the first place.

As for the kitchen or living room being "less on fire", no, they'll be equally on fire, but if they're up to code, they'll be less likely to catch on fire in the first place, easier to escape from, and properly designed so that there's hopefully nothing in place that will make the situation more dangerous than it has to be.

The bottom line is that if their use of the space was up to code, all they had to do was go get a permit for the conversion and have it properly in ...

I didn't care either way (except they are bringing down their neighbors property values)... until I read this part.

Now, city officials are looking at changing an ordinance on garage use, arguing that as people get a little too comfortable hanging out in the garage, more cars are clogging side streets.

Seriously, screw this. If there aren't painted lines on the road separating out spaces with parking meters attached to them... Why the hell does anyone else have to pay taxes for you to have a place to park your car?

I know some places were built a long time ago with the intent of street parking, but seriously... fark that.

There are roads in Houston which are clogged *entirely* because of A-holes and their businesses which can't be bothered to pay for a parking lot and instead have their customers park in the street and then walk across where ever they feel like (you know, instead of at a cross walk) and expect *you* to avoid their drunken asses.

I'd love to see a city get the balls to tell everyone that you either park on your property, or you get towed. No more free rides... Roads are for driving, not parking.

KrispyKritter:Your government doesn't want neighbors talking to neighbors. Stay upstairs watching NASCAR or stroking on the porn internet. If you speak w/ people in the neighborhood you'll soon collectively realize you should take it to the streets and burn the mother down. Rich powerful whitey don't want that no sir. Go eat sugar, drink soda, stay indoors sheep.

what a deeck thing to say! i know a lot of NASCAR loving rednecks who do the same thing to avoid smoking up thier houses. they havent done the sliding door thing,but it's not uncommon for the smokers and anyone who wants to hang with them to retire to the garage with the door open and just smoke and drink to their heart's content. and you do realize the the government in detroit isnt exactly caucasian,dont you?

DVDave:Really? Next to my house, the most valuable items I own are vehicles. I'm absolutely going to park them in the garage instead of leaving them outside in the elements.

My computer costs more than my car. That's the point. There's no reason to spend that much on a vehicle (for daily driving, anyway), and you'll save a shiat ton of money if you maintain your car well as opposed to swapping it out every five years. Bonus if you know how to fix/diagnose it yourself and you get something pre-1994.