Someone explain to me why this discussion is had and why you guys only apply 20% human standards to them?

if you look in totality, both are shit dads cause they do no actual childrearing. Neither goku or vegeta take their kids to school , pack lunches, help them with hw, go to PTA meetings, etc. They hang out with them for a bit and then fuck off to train. All the actual PARENTING is done by their wives.

No one is forcing you to engage in this discussion. It's kept civil at the moment so not sure what your complaint is. I will agree that it would be more appropriate for separate another thread in itself, though.

We're applying "human standards" because that's what the series presents. It's even made a gag at this point. Might not be a good one, but a gag nonetheless.

Last edited by mfwlegend3 on Thu May 02, 2019 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Someone explain to me why this discussion is had and why you guys only apply 20% human standards to them?

if you look in totality, both are shit dads cause they do no actual childrearing. Neither goku or vegeta take their kids to school , pack lunches, help them with hw, go to PTA meetings, etc. They hang out with them for a bit and then fuck off to train. All the actual PARENTING is done by their wives.

No one is forcing you to engage in this discussion. It's kept civil at the moment so not sure what your complaint is.

We're applying "human standards" because that's what the series presents. It's even made a gag at this point. Might not be a good one, but a gag nonetheless.

But thats the point, you don't apply full human standards. If you did then there wouldn't be an argument since neither goku or vegeta actually raise their kids, its all done by the mothers. IRL most women wouldn't let their partners get away with the bare minimum like these two.

You can't say goku or vegeta are good dads simply cause they show affection (at times) or have sacrificed their lives for them when day to day stuff (while they are alive) they do NONE of.

it's true, and either way you know exactly what I mean. No need to nitpick.

Not really since Vegeta even in Super has questionable dad moments like him leaving his family for six months that Bulma actually complained about, him not working, and then for the TOP he never mentioned his family until the last few episodes. So saying 'he cares a little more' doesn't really mean much in context.

Vegeta obviously kept them in mind throughout the course of the tournament. A constant reminder wasn't necessary.

He was also willing to stay with Bulma instead of participating while she was in labor. It's only until Whis cut it short that he agreed to go.

He was also willing to go 9 people into the TOP and said that they didn't need teamwork because they have him who was the strongest.

Kanassa wrote:

precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.

Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

The retroactive decision to paint Goku as a negligent father while depicting Vegeta as a borderline saint of parenthood (or at the very least, being turned into one by Bulma) is one of the most annoying things about modern Dragon Ball.

I'm sure more people are going to be upset about what he says about Bardock (how him being more compassionate toward his son ultimately made him better than King Vegeta and Paragus) but at this point, Minus Bardock is here to stay and I'm fine with it. It'll still never be worse than what the video games did to him.

Cheelai and Lemo were his favourites and you can really tell from watching. They're a lot of fun and I hope we see more from them in future.

Goku being a negligent father was present in the original manga too (only toned down by the Z anime), while Vegeta being a good parent was present since the Buu saga & GT. Modern Dragonball didn't start either of these things.

"It'll still never be worse than what the video games did to him."

The video games never butchered nor even changed Bardock's characterization from the 90's original like Minus did. Episode of Bardock was just a spinoff special for Dragonball Heroes, never mean't to see as a canon thing, and yet even their Bardock's personality is the same as the original.

zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

Someone explain to me why this discussion is had and why you guys only apply 20% human standards to them?

if you look in totality, both are shit dads cause they do no actual childrearing. Neither goku or vegeta take their kids to school , pack lunches, help them with hw, go to PTA meetings, etc. They hang out with them for a bit and then fuck off to train. All the actual PARENTING is done by their wives.

Vegeta actually did go to Trunks' soccer game and Goku did go to Gohan's movie despite being bored to tears. That and Trunks is home school, so Vegeta really can't take him to school. That and we honestly never seen Bulma do any of the above either.

In fact, we haven't seen Chi-Chi do most of this list outside of giving homework. We never see Chi-Chi actually helped Gohan with it.

The retroactive decision to paint Goku as a negligent father while depicting Vegeta as a borderline saint of parenthood (or at the very least, being turned into one by Bulma) is one of the most annoying things about modern Dragon Ball.

I'm sure more people are going to be upset about what he says about Bardock (how him being more compassionate toward his son ultimately made him better than King Vegeta and Paragus) but at this point, Minus Bardock is here to stay and I'm fine with it. It'll still never be worse than what the video games did to him.

Cheelai and Lemo were his favourites and you can really tell from watching. They're a lot of fun and I hope we see more from them in future.

Goku being a negligent father was present in the original manga too (only toned down by the Z anime), while Vegeta being a good parent was present since the Buu saga & GT. Modern Dragonball didn't start either of these things.

"It'll still never be worse than what the video games did to him."

The video games never butchered nor even changed Bardock's characterization from the 90's original like Minus did. Episode of Bardock was just a spinoff special for Dragonball Heroes, never mean't to see as a canon thing, and yet even their Bardock's personality is the same as the original.

Actually no. Vegeta in the Buu Saga outright said he has never hugged Trunks or told him how proud he was. He was a better father from the piece of shit he was in the Android/Cell Saga, but even the Buu Saga didn't paint him as a good dad.

Also, EOB Bardock isn't really the same from his original appearance. For one, they toned down him being a remorseless mass murdered. Something Minus never did since the first page is literally Bardock killing people.

Last edited by HeroR on Thu May 02, 2019 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kanassa wrote:

precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.

Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

He was also willing to go 9 people into the TOP and said that they didn't need teamwork because they have him who was the strongest.

And what does this have to do with him being a family guy?

zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

Vegeta obviously kept them in mind throughout the course of the tournament. A constant reminder wasn't necessary.

He was also willing to stay with Bulma instead of participating while she was in labor. It's only until Whis cut it short that he agreed to go.

That's really questionable when he didn't seem to take the stakes of the tournament seriously and didn't even want to bothered to fill in the last slot when someone when Buu dropped out. That and Vegeta spent most of the tournament going 'I'm the best' until Episode 123.

Actually no. Vegeta in the Buu Saga outright said he has never hugged Trunks or told him how proud he was. He was a better father from the piece of shit he was in the Android/Cell Saga, but even the Buu Saga didn't paint him as a good dad.

Also, EOB Bardock isn't really the same from his original appearance. For one, they toned down him being a remorseless mass murdered. Something Minus never did since the first page is literally Bardock killing people.

" Vegeta in the Buu Saga outright said he has never hugged Trunks or told him how proud he was."

Which he still doesn't do in Super. Vegeta was never the touchy-feely type, so that's a weak argument. And you still ignored GT Vegeta.

And you are dead wrong about EoB Bardock. There he never expressed any remorse about anyone he's killed (no "toning down" at all), he immediately goes off the kill Chilled and his soldiers just because they remind him of Freeza (not for any altruistic reasons) and his personality is exactly the same as it was in the 90's movie (which makes sense since its a what-if sequel to it.) He doesn't even think about Goku in the EoB special, whereas in Minus/DBS Broly he shows way more concern than he did in the 90's special.

zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

Which he still doesn't do in Super. Vegeta was never the touchy-feely type. So that's a weak argument.

Even then that's arguable as he couldn't resist cradling Bra.

Its a new-born baby, what do you expect?

zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

Someone explain to me why this discussion is had and why you guys only apply 20% human standards to them?

if you look in totality, both are shit dads cause they do no actual childrearing. Neither goku or vegeta take their kids to school , pack lunches, help them with hw, go to PTA meetings, etc. They hang out with them for a bit and then fuck off to train. All the actual PARENTING is done by their wives.

You’re looking at things from a real life point of view. Why would Goku or Vegeta need to take their kids to school when Goten and Trunks can fly faster than the speed of sound? It’s like youll see Vegeta pulling up in a surburan SUV or something like that

Actually no. Vegeta in the Buu Saga outright said he has never hugged Trunks or told him how proud he was. He was a better father from the piece of shit he was in the Android/Cell Saga, but even the Buu Saga didn't paint him as a good dad.

Also, EOB Bardock isn't really the same from his original appearance. For one, they toned down him being a remorseless mass murdered. Something Minus never did since the first page is literally Bardock killing people.

" Vegeta in the Buu Saga outright said he has never hugged Trunks or told him how proud he was."

Which he still doesn't do in Super. Vegeta was never the touchy-feely type, so that's a weak argument. And you still ignored GT Vegeta.

And you are dead wrong about EoB Bardock. There he never expressed any remorse about anyone he's killed (no "toning down" at all), he immediately goes off the kill Chilled and his soldiers just because they remind him of Freeza (not for any altruistic reasons) and his personality is exactly the same as it was in the 90's movie (which makes sense since its a what-if sequel to it.) He doesn't even think about Goku in the EoB special, whereas in Minus/DBS Broly he shows way more concern than he did in the 90's special.

Because GT is kinda a non-factor. That and he only really showed care for Bra, not so much Trunks.

TV Special and Bardock was noticeably more heroic in EOB than he was in Father of Goku where outside his crew, he was a sack of shit.

Showing some care for your child doesn’t suddenly make you a good or even decent person, or even a good dad. Especially when Minus actually said he hasn’t even seen Goku since birth and his sudden care for him is OOC.

Kanassa wrote:

precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.

Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

And as I said, showed no real care until about his family until 123. Before then, he showed more care towards Cabba and proven he’s the best. If he really had his family or universe in mind, why didn’t he help with the Spirit Bomb?

Kanassa wrote:

precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.

Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

And as I said, showed no real care until about his family until 123. Before then, he showed more care towards Cabba and proven he’s the best. If he really had his family or universe in mind, why didn’t he help with the Spirit Bomb?

Vegeta literally tells Jiren that he fights because he wants to protect his family. It doesn't get more in your face than that. There doesn't need to be a constant reminder that Bulma, Trunks, and now Bra motivate him to ensure U7's victory.

And as I said, showed no real care until about his family until 123. Before then, he showed more care towards Cabba and proven he’s the best. If he really had his family or universe in mind, why didn’t he help with the Spirit Bomb?

Vegeta literally tells Jiren that he fights because he wants to protect his family. It doesn't get more in your face than that. There doesn't need to be a constant reminder that Bulma, Trunks, and now Bra motivate him to ensure U7's victory.

Which is again after 123. I specifically said that up until that moment, he showed really no care for his family and was mostly running on ego. You don't need a constant reminder, but Vegeta sure in hell wasn't acting like someone fighting for his family or universe, especially when he blew off Goku's Spirit Bomb, something freaking Freeza gave energy for.

Kanassa wrote:

precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.

Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

What exactly are you getting at if you don’t feel a consistent reminder is warranted to prove that Vegeta puts his family before his own personal ambitions then? You give off the impression that ultimately it just stems from a personal bias against the character and you’re just grasping at any straws at the moment in an attempt to rationalize what ever point it is you’re trying to make here.

It’s not that hard to comprehend. I don’t know how else you’d like it to be spoon fed for you.

Why did Vegeta refuse to lend Goku his energy? He wanted to defeat Jiren for himself and in conjunction protect what he holds sacred and that being his family. Yes it is also likely that there was some for personal gain in there but from what we have been told and have seen that was minimal in comparison to his feelings for wanting to return to his loved ones again.

And as I said, showed no real care until about his family until 123. Before then, he showed more care towards Cabba and proven he’s the best. If he really had his family or universe in mind, why didn’t he help with the Spirit Bomb?

Vegeta literally tells Jiren that he fights because he wants to protect his family. It doesn't get more in your face than that. There doesn't need to be a constant reminder that Bulma, Trunks, and now Bra motivate him to ensure U7's victory.

Which is again after 123. I specifically said that up until that moment, he showed really no care for his family and was mostly running on ego. You don't need a constant reminder, but Vegeta sure in hell wasn't acting like someone fighting for his family or universe, especially when he blew off Goku's Spirit Bomb, something freaking Freeza gave energy for.

So if a character isn't consistently reminding the audience that he/she cares about their family every episode, they don't really care? That's retarded.

We already knew Vegeta's motivations for joining the ToP before ep.123. You are being delusional for arguing otherwise.

zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.