Feedback from a top laner: The loss of PD is big for several crit based champs that would much rather have damage reduction and movespeed for dueling than a shield on low HP, think Tryndamere, Yasuo, weird Mundo builds, etc. Not to beat a dead horse but I'm extremely dissapointed that we lost Atma's, and shocked that we're about to lose Shojin too. I kind of understand the reasoning for splitting ER into two "versions", one focused on crit users and the other on bruisers, but I'd much rather see that in addition to Shojin, rather than instead of, as I think they both fill interesting and not contradictory niches.
Regarding the changes from the point of view of ADC, I think they're alright, I like the idea of having core crit items that you then go into additional secondary crit items, but I do think that it might make sense to make the ADC items similar to mage items in that ADCs have a choice of a few (2-3) items that give everything they need, attackspeed + AD + crit, filling the same role as a crit based bork. Stormrazor was supposed to fill that role, but instead of disrupting the existing items Riot tried to shoehorn it in and caused numerous problems.
One commenter mentioned a couple potential builds, but consider the following: Stormrazor gets reworked into a crit version of Botrk, which is what it should have been from the start, giving 25% crit, a small chunk of AD and AS, say 20% AS and 20-30 AD or something, and either no passive or a small passive like you can crit against towers for 125% damage or something. Then from there crit ADCs can go into a situational crit item, PD for defense/more kiting, RFC for more range/energized attacks, Zeal for waveclear, Essence reaver for spellslinging, or straight into IE to help snowball. Then they're able to finish their 3 item core build and go into more situational items like Bloodthirster, QSS, GA, etc.
This method would allow ADCs to choose a core item that provides them everything they need much like mages do, and then go into more situational items, with IE serving a similar niche to Deathcap does for mages, GA acting a lot like Zhonya's, Maw acting like Banshees, Frozen mallet acting like Rylai's. Add other situational items that already exist, and ADC itemization already looks really well rounded with the repurposing of only one item.

When was the last time you played against Morde? Because as someone who plays both I can guarantee that Morde is much more oppressive in a melee matchup. Trynd is quite safe and can be somewhat difficult to play against, but you can beat him with proper macro. Morde on the other hand is an extremely oppressive laner with strong poke, nearly impossible to all in, and beyond that a poorly defined and weak mid game without hard engage or snowballing out of control in the early game.
Tryndamere has much less of a feast or famine playstyle, the main reason why he's strong right now is the same reason bruisers are strong top in general, conqueror and the abundance of true damage. While champions that build tanky got weaker, champs that don't need to got stronger. Once/if the meta shifts he'll fall back into place again, same for champs like Jax.

I actually love this idea, not only would it make it less appealing for every single hybrid champ assassin in the fucking game to rush with literally no alternative, but it would allow on-hit champs like Kog'Maw to make a much better use of it too, plus it would allow for even more interesting build paths due to lifesteal to spellvamp conversion.

:
Potentially. Main concern that might stop that at this point is that they overlap quite a bit with existing items (Spear of Shojin and Sterak's, Atma's and Titanic). Should be making a call on that soon though.
Edit: Update on this after talking with the team is we're currently planning to ship Spear but not Atma's, belief being that Spear's users and context are sufficiently different from Sterak's, but Atma's has too much overlap.

> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-26T16:03:06.587+0000)
>
> Potentially. Main concern that might stop that at this point is that they overlap quite a bit with existing items (Spear of Shojin and Sterak&#x27;s, Atma&#x27;s and Titanic). Should be making a call on that soon though.
>
> Edit: Update on this after talking with the team is we&#x27;re currently planning to ship Spear but not Atma&#x27;s, belief being that Spear&#x27;s users and context are sufficiently different from Sterak&#x27;s, but Atma&#x27;s has too much overlap.
The stated reason for including spear but not Atma's is that Atma's has too much user overlap, specifically with Titanic.
Atma's has four distinct differences, the first is that it gives resitances which are important for a health stacking champion, which is what both items encourage. The second is that it does not give waveclear. The third is that its AD bonus works against towers, which titanic doesn't. The final is that the bonus damage from health granted by Titanic doesn't affect ability damage, only autos.
As a juggernaut splitpush top lane player these differences are really massive for me. I think that titanic does have a place on champions like Shen for example, but there are many places where Atma's could really shine as an alternative. Take for example Illaoi, against tanks Black Cleaver is a superb buy, giving you CDR, damage, and health. Illaoi has more than enough waveclear, and I would argue that she doesn't auto enough to make good use of titanic. Thus Illaoi would like Atma's but not titanic. On the flip side you have a champion like Shen that doesn't have any AD scalings on his abilities, and lacks waveclear, making him a perfect candidate for titanic, but not a great user of Atma's.
The Atma's users don't stop at Illaoi though, champions like Darius, Urgot, Yorick, Nasus, and Aatrox would be great users of Atma's, given most juggernauts generally have better waveclear or don't value it as highly like Nasus or the current iteration of Trundle. As a final note it would allow champions like Sion and Warwick to double down on the AD + Health stacking niche by taking items like Cinderhulk with Titanic and Atma's.
Still not convinced? Let's look at the other item being added, Spear of Shojin. What's looking to be added by Shojin? Teamfighting survivability for relatively high damage squishy fighters or assassins like Xin, Jax, Fiora, Pyke, or Talon. I would argue that we already have an item intended for this purpose, it's called death's dance. The mechanism is slightly different, but the goal is identical, the higher your offenses the harder you get to kill. In addition it even provides CDR too! If any item is redundant it's Shojin, not Atma's, and if Atma's isn't being added for this reason there's definitely no reason to add Shojin. That said I do support both items be added since I enjoy diversity and creativity and I think that providing players with more things to think about and more options is rarely a bad choice.
With all that being said I can understand that there are other reasons for not adding Atma's to the game, but the stated reason of too much overlap is bullshit. I've been following these items since they were put on the PBE several months ago now, since I play top lane I'm a big part of the target audience for both of these items, and I was so sad when they got removed, I consoled myself with the thought that they would be released in the preseason, but now even that is getting taken. I'm not going to sit and watch while they disappear once again. Thanks for reading.
TL;DR: Atma's doesn't have as much overlap with Titanic as Shojin does with Death's Dance and has lots of unique uses and users.

I understand that Riot needs a good direction to go with Mordekaiser, but the problem from the Mordekaiser player's point of view is that we **already have** that direction. Take a look at Malicious Metal's amazing post here:
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lLJWuEu6-one-morde-thread-to-rule-them-all
Mordekaiser mains are almost all in agreement that they want him to be an AP battle mage/juggernaut hybrid with low mobility, high damage, and moderate range, keeping a similar lore as the main bad guy of Runeterra, a force so evil that petty things like the Noxus/Demacia rivalry would be put aside to combat him, a threat on par with the void itself. The reason Mordekaiser mains are so frustrated is because they see the potential of the champion, combined with the fact that he's the most buggy champion in the game, combined with the fact that they've been promised a rework for literally years at this point. Those are the reasons Mordekaiser players are upset. If you look on op.gg right now, Mordekaiser's stats aren't even tracked because he's not played enough, he's the only champion that happens for. The only champion with a lower play rate than him is Ivern, who has other issues, specifically with the meta.

Respect for making this post. You put into words what pretty much every Mordekaiser main knows Mordekaiser could, and should, be.
I started playing Mordekaiser because I got him in ARAM, I built him tank with Warmogs and it was so silly in hindsight, but I fell in love with him, and started playing him in norms. He was my first M7 champion and he's still my highest mastery score champion to date. Unfortunately I've all but stopped playing him in favor of Juggernauts that can splitpush and act independently from the team.
For the past month I've been keeping up with the roadmap, and waiting patiently for it to be released. I was so sure that Mordekaiser would be on it. How could he **not** be? We've been waiting for literal years for this rework, we've been dreaming of what Mordekaiser could be, but the dreams are dying. My biggest fear is that everyone's dreams of what Mordekaiser could be will die, and we'll be left with a forgotten shell. Honestly, with every roadmap that's posted without Morde in it, with every rework that's released, with every post by Rioters saying Mordekaiser will be reworked "soon", I'm losing a little more hope.
I really want to believe that Mordekaiser will be reworked, and that we'll have an incredible event where Mordekaiser invades Noxus to take back the Immortal Bastion, and that the new Mordekaiser will be a 1v5 machine that really feels like a metal titan to play, I don't think we'll ever see that day...

:
As someone who doesn't remember what Enchantment Juggernaut did, I'm thoroughly confused. Can you please provide word for word text on what the item's effect is?
Also with the jungle items, their Icons all look alike, so putting in the symbol for them doesn't help show which one you're actually talking about. Would be nice to have it in text for people to see which is which.

> [{quoted}](name=HalcyonDweller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgrHmoAt,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-03-05T23:05:10.078+0000)
>
> As someone who doesn&#x27;t remember what Enchantment Juggernaut did, I&#x27;m thoroughly confused. Can you please provide word for word text on what the item&#x27;s effect is?
>
> Also with the jungle items, their Icons all look alike, so putting in the symbol for them doesn&#x27;t help show which one you&#x27;re actually talking about. Would be nice to have it in text for people to see which is which.
I actually originally had it in text but then I decided to use the icons because I thought people would be able to hover over them and see what they did, but unfortunately the league boards aren't quite as user friendly as i had hoped... Oh well. I'll put the link to the original Enchantment: Juggernaut in the main post now.

:
I liked your idea quite a lot, and [made a post of my own](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/mpf06Gqt-re-purposing-the-old-spirit-stone-items-and-wriggles-lantern-to-modern-league) that takes the item and puts stats on it so that it might be easier to visualize (along with other old jungle items, but that's not the point.)
I linked your post at the beginning; was something like this sort of what you imagined?

> [{quoted}](name=Pokemonred200,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgrHmoAt,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-03-05T18:25:48.850+0000)
>
> I liked your idea quite a lot, and [made a post of my own](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/mpf06Gqt-re-purposing-the-old-spirit-stone-items-and-wriggles-lantern-to-modern-league) that takes the item and puts stats on it so that it might be easier to visualize (along with other old jungle items, but that&#x27;s not the point.)
>
> I linked your post at the beginning; was something like this sort of what you imagined?
I'm glad you liked my post! Someone else inspired me to make my post so I'm glad I could perpetuate the chain of ideas. I was thinking it would be an enchantment, but bringing back its own unique items would be interesting too. I'll look into it more when I get back home and maybe make a post with some comments about it.

:
>Another common juggernaut stat is tenacity. This makes sense given that a juggernaut's greatest weakness is getting kited, especially by CC, wouldn't you want something that mitigates your greatest weakness to go along with an amplification of your greatest strength?
Nah, there has been a whole post about juggernauts' problems, and tenacity doesn't prevent juggernauts from getting kited and CC-ed like on a pinball machine. This is why [an item like this one](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/pth0PU8J-where-are-items-for-juggernauts) would solve most of such problems.

> [{quoted}](name=The Cane Master,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgrHmoAt,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-03-05T16:25:38.262+0000)
>
> Nah, there has been a whole post about juggernauts&#x27; problems, and tenacity doesn&#x27;t prevent juggernauts from getting kited and CC-ed like on a pinball machine. This is why [an item like this one](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/pth0PU8J-where-are-items-for-juggernauts) would solve most of such problems.
So my item is focused on midgame strength using tenacity, not late game teamfighting. I liked this guy’s idea so much in fact that I linked it at the end of my post and mentioned that it was part of the reason I decided to make this post in the first place. Next time please read the post before trying to shoot down my idea. Thanks! :)

> [{quoted}](name=Numbuh 214,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgrHmoAt,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-03-05T07:27:48.869+0000)
>
> I like the scaling aspect of Cinderhulk, so I&#x27;d hate for it to go away; but I do like this idea as its own enchantment. Maybe the name could be &quot;Titan&quot;?
Yes, I apologize if I didn't make that clear, Cinderhulk would stay, this would be in addition. Juggernaut was the name I was thinking of, but Titan would work as well!

> [{quoted}](name=LyingOnLine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgrHmoAt,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-05T03:19:01.876+0000)
>
> Triforce as a core item just doesn’t work with modern junglers.
Right, but I think it could with this item. Shyvana, Trundle, Udyr, etc all can build Trinity Force with good success, and this item would make them viable.

:
I don't believe a word you say, I have 4 friends that are low plat ADCs and they can't farm, they don't ward although they have a ward trinket for the whole game, they can't group, they can't position themselves and still maintain a 54~58% winrate with ADCs.
Most of the things you say is full of crap and solo laners have way more game knowledge than any ADC mains I know. Do yourself a favor and play TOP or MID for at least 50 games, then you make a follow up thread to this one.
If you do that I'll respect your opinion.

> [{quoted}](name=WiegrafOfValor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yrQFxLlK,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-02-17T15:50:29.866+0000)
>
> I don&#x27;t believe a word you say, I have 4 friends that are low plat ADCs and they can&#x27;t farm, they don&#x27;t ward although they have a ward trinket for the whole game, they can&#x27;t group, they can&#x27;t position themselves and still maintain a 54~58% winrate with ADCs.
>
> Most of the things you say is full of crap and solo laners have way more game knowledge than any ADC mains I know. Do yourself a favor and play TOP or MID for at least 50 games, then you make a follow up thread to this one.
>
> If you do that I&#x27;ll respect your opinion.
Top lane main here, learning ADC because too many people on my clash team play top lane. xD
Anyways, I can confirm OP's point of view, ADC can be very challenging in teamfights. As a top laner it's absolutely infuriating to not be able to 1v1 anyone on the enemy team, to be blown up by any assassin with half a brain, and to have to rely on your support for all of your survivability in teamfights.
Playing as an ADC is a very different experience from top lane. As a top laner I'm used to being able to do everything myself, as an ADC player I can't do anything except follow up on my team's engages, and I can't even do that unless I'm sure nobody can get to me, because if they do, I'm well and truly fucked. As a top laner I can 1v2 on a regular basis, split push all day long and give 0 fucks about my team, and generally rely on my own skill to win the game. This becomes a lot harder as an ADC, when you lack the ability to stay alive against more than the league equivalent of a toothless old man.