Ultimately, though, it is the community of electrical engineers and computer scientists that will judge whether embedded mining technology solves their problems. Towards that end, our team of PhDs in EE from MIT, Stanford, and CMU has built not just a chip, but a full technology stack around the chip — including reference devices, datasheets, a cloud backend, and software protocols. And we have already engaged with a wide variety of early access partners across the industry, from small startups to multibillion dollar hardware companies.

Ultimately, though, it is the community of electrical engineers and computer scientists that will judge whether embedded mining technology solves their problems. Towards that end, our team of PhDs in EE from MIT, Stanford, and CMU has built not just a chip, but a full technology stack around the chip — including reference devices, datasheets, a cloud backend, and software protocols. And we have already engaged with a wide variety of early access partners across the industry, from small startups to multibillion dollar hardware companies.

“21's chip and architecture represent an important next step in securing the future of the public, synchronized global ledger that is the blockchain. We believe that massively distributed embedded mining is the bitcoin that Satoshi intended — decentralized and globally accessible. We’ve known the team since the inception of the company, and we are confident that they can achieve this goal!”— Jim Robinson IV, Co-Founder and Managing Partner, RRE Ventures

OK, so I'm genuinely curious to understand in what ways you think Monero as money is superior to Bitcoin as money.

To me the six properties of money are:

...

Uniform - Each unit is valued the same - Check, Bitcoin is perfectly uniform (same/better than gold)

...

sorry my english is bad, thats why i only want to talk about the properties of money since i thougth a lot about it. i agree with all points except this one.

Gold is uniform because you can melt it down if needed and no one will ever recognize it again. with bitcoin this is not possible. for now its uniform, but for how long, if its not fungible?

the 6th property of money is fungibility, not uniformity, since fungibility inculdes uniformity allready, but means a lot more in the end

to me, Bitcoin is fungible when you think in terms of UTXO's.

which half of 1BTC is tainted from joining 0.5BTC taint with 0.5BTC pure from 2 UTXO's? when you then split that 1BTC into two 0.5BTC payments, are they both uniformly tainted or is there a discrete 0.5BTC that is tainted? how do you distinguish?

yes, an address can be tainted if identified with a drug dealer. but that's not the same as UTXO's, which is where the real action is.

OK, so I'm genuinely curious to understand in what ways you think Monero as money is superior to Bitcoin as money.

To me the six properties of money are:

...

Uniform - Each unit is valued the same - Check, Bitcoin is perfectly uniform (same/better than gold)

...

sorry my english is bad, thats why i only want to talk about the properties of money since i thougth a lot about it. i agree with all points except this one.

Gold is uniform because you can melt it down if needed and no one will ever recognize it again. with bitcoin this is not possible. for now its uniform, but for how long, if its not fungible?

the 6th property of money is fungibility, not uniformity, since fungibility inculdes uniformity allready, but means a lot more in the end

Well I've always seen it as fungibility derives from uniformity, if something is perfectly uniform, then it will be fungible as well.

The worry being expressed here is that colored coins will force bitcoin to lose fungibility, but the thing to remember is the bitcoin network will not discriminate and continue to process white/black coins with no regard for whatever government rules are imposed on people. In that manner Bitcoin will always remain perfectly fungible in it's natural state. Fungibility might only be lost in how it is used, but people can ignore gov rules and use it however they want.

It is not clear how uniformity/fungibility is any different from Bitcoin.

Most likely if an entity (company, government, individual, ect) decided to censor bitcoin transactions based on tx history, then that entity would not accept a currency like XMR at all because tx history cannot be completely known. In this sense, XMR could be LESS FUNGIBLE than bitcoin, or at least less accepted as fungibility may be the wrong term to use in that case.

Counterfeit: made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive: merriam-webster

It is not clear how uniformity/fungibility is any different from Bitcoin.

Most likely if an entity (company, government, individual, ect) decided to censor bitcoin transactions based on tx history, then that entity would not accept a currency like XMR at all because tx history cannot be completely known. In this sense, XMR could be LESS FUNGIBLE than bitcoin, or at least less accepted as fungibility may be the wrong term to use in that case.

In that case you still can't differentiate units, which is the premise of fungibility. It would simply be outlawed.

It is not clear how uniformity/fungibility is any different from Bitcoin.

Most likely if an entity (company, government, individual, ect) decided to censor bitcoin transactions based on tx history, then that entity would not accept a currency like XMR at all because tx history cannot be completely known. In this sense, XMR could be LESS FUNGIBLE than bitcoin, or at least less accepted as fungibility may be the wrong term to use in that case.

In that case you still can't differentiate units, which is the premise of fungibility. It would simply be outlawed.

As I said, fungibility may be the wrong term, but the outcome would be similar to non-fungibility (actually worse) because the currency would be banned completely.

Counterfeit: made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive: merriam-webster

Monero is...what Bitcoin was promised to be (but is not, and likely cannot be) - private cash, and nothing more.

What was Bitcoin "promised to be"? How does the Bitcoin of today not fulfil the description from the Satoshi white paper? Bitcoin is more useful than Monero because it does not force privacy upon its users. It gives its users the freedom to choose their privacy requirements. Cryddit (Ray Dillinger) made a series of insightful posts beginning here arguing against all but niche adoption of strong-privacy coins.

Furthermore, even if you assume that protocol-enforced privacy is a positive (which I don't), the trade-offs made to get that privacy have real costs. But we won't fully know what these costs are until something like Monero is trading at a much higher market cap and transaction volume.

That being said, I like Monero because (a) it had a fair launch, and (b) it offers something unique. I would love to see it overtake Dash (Darkcoin) and then Litecoin. But I think best-case scenario for Monero is a few % of the bitcoin market cap.

There is a "viewkey" in Monero that allows people to track your transactions... so I wouldn't say that Monero "forces" privacy on its users. (Maybe I'm splitting hairs though).

seems to me that at the very least we will see companies like Qualcomm opening their own mining pools at which all these devices will be pointed. this would be fantastic in further decentralizing mining in terms of increasing pool choices. especially here in the US. and if Qualcomm opens a pool, others are sure to follow. like Whirlpool, GE, Subzero, etc.

Divisible - Can be split into any useful amount without losing value - Check, Bitcoin is as divisible as needed (easier to do than gold)

Uniform - Each unit is valued the same - Check, Bitcoin is perfectly uniform (same/better than gold)

Durable - Will not degrade over time - Check, Bitcoin private keys are perfectly durable (better than gold)

Accepted - Widely used and valued by the population - Not yet, Bitcoin misses here for now (gold is better)

Bitcoin has always been interesting to me because it beats gold handily in 1) Portability, 2) Scarcity and to a lesser extent 3) Divisibility and 4) Uniformity. Bitcoin still loses in Acceptability but that is to be expected for 6 year old currency vs a 5000 year old one. This one follows the other 5.

In what manner is Monero better along these dimensions?

+1 - monero transaction is 5-10 times bigger - this snake oil salesmen (shitcoin proponents) absolutely have no clue what is bitcoin as "programmable money" with SC.

I kind of suspect that a lot of people don't really grok the spin off idea. I think there would be a lot of value to a dumb proof-of-concept altcoin that spun off the Bitcoin ledger (with some trivial changes like a confirmation rate of 5 minutes). It would be really interesting to see people's reactions to it... first the usual disdain, and then perhaps a kind of curiosity once they realize that they "automatically" have a chunk of this new coin. Anyway, it would help spread the concept, which is what I think would be the most valuable.

It is not clear how uniformity/fungibility is any different from Bitcoin.

Most likely if an entity (company, government, individual, ect) decided to censor bitcoin transactions based on tx history, then that entity would not accept a currency like XMR at all because tx history cannot be completely known. In this sense, XMR could be LESS FUNGIBLE than bitcoin, or at least less accepted as fungibility may be the wrong term to use in that case.

In that case you still can't differentiate units, which is the premise of fungibility. It would simply be outlawed.

Which puts Monero in the exact same position as Bitcoin then. Bitcoin would have certain transaction types outlawed and Monero would be entirely outlawed. Yet both Monero and Bitcoin would still function and processed the outlawed transactions for people who choose to ignore the (illegal) rules.

And so both maintain fungibility through the exact same mechanism, which is people ignoring governments. This is why I'll maintain privacy is a matter of usage, but is not a property of money.

Which puts Monero in the exact same position as Bitcoin then. Bitcoin would have certain transaction types outlawed and Monero would be entirely outlawed. Yet both Monero and Bitcoin would still function and processed the outlawed transactions for people who choose to ignore the (illegal) rules.

And so both maintain fungibility through the exact same mechanism, which is people ignoring governments. This is why I'll maintain privacy is a matter of usage, but is not a property of money.

I dont think anyone said money needs to be private to be money, Monero is a private form of electronic money from blockchain perspective, Bitcoin is not truly one because all separating anyone from tracing you is them not knowing you own the addresses, create one single exit or entry point with KYC and your entire history of transactions is compromised and you'll never know whos watching and why, think credit card, thats is what Bitcoin is more like, Monero on other hand is setup so that traceability of funds is limited within the scope of a certain organization or government, basically a database of view keys, Bitcoin was setup to be traceable by anyone including their doge. Monero also has better mining algo to difficult ASICS and can SCALE.

Which puts Monero in the exact same position as Bitcoin then. Bitcoin would have certain transaction types outlawed and Monero would be entirely outlawed. Yet both Monero and Bitcoin would still function and processed the outlawed transactions for people who choose to ignore the (illegal) rules.

And so both maintain fungibility through the exact same mechanism, which is people ignoring governments. This is why I'll maintain privacy is a matter of usage, but is not a property of money.

I dont think anyone said money needs to be private to be money, Monero is a private form of electronic money from blockchain perspective, Bitcoin is not truly one because all separating anyone from tracing you is them not knowing you own the addresses, create one single exit or entry point with KYC and your entire history of transactions is compromised and you'll never know whos watching and why, think credit card, thats is what Bitcoin is more like, Monero on other hand is setup so that traceability of funds is limited within the scope of a certain organization or government, basically a database of view keys, Bitcoin was setup to be traceable by anyone including their doge. Monero also has better mining algo to difficult ASICS and can SCALE.

Not debating any of that, agree that Monero is more private.

Am debating what are the innate properties that constitute money. For the reasons stated in prior posts I do not consider privacy to be applicable to what makes good or bad money and do not see that as a factor towards driving adoption. The subset of people who need privacy can use both in a manner that achieves it. Regarding "better mining algo", again this is not a property of money I think people who are resorting to these types of arguments to convince themselves that altcoin x is better are kidding themselves.

On the six properties I care about Monero is either the same or worse than Bitcoin. Explain to me how Monero is better on any of those six properties, otherwise you don't have a solid argument that it is better.

Very valuable work coming from Andrew Miller (@socrate1024): a way to test bitcoin at scale using shadow (1) and a custom made shadow multi-thread plugin. Applying this framework they even found out a novel denial-of-service attack against the Bitcoin software.

Am debating what are the innate properties that constitute money. For the reasons stated in prior posts I do not consider privacy to be applicable to what makes good or bad money and do not see that as a factor towards driving adoption. The subset of people who need privacy can use both in a manner that achieves it. Regarding "better mining algo", again this is not a property of money I think people who are resorting to these types of arguments to convince themselves that altcoin x is better are kidding themselves. On the six properties I care about Monero is either the same or worse than Bitcoin.

I can convince myself of whatever I want, including that Bitcoin as money sucks is a NWO tracking tool waiting to happen.

BTW would you use a metal as money that has only 3 or 4 large groups mining 80% of all deposits of it or one that has better qualities of money and can be found in your backyard yet as rare as the first one.