We are talking about a Zampaktou that blocks out all senses. I will have to say it'll take no less than a century to unravel such a mystery.

So Ichi can't be called a genius because he didn't do anything like that?

October 17, 2012, 09:55 AM

Duniak

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Quote:

Originally Posted by shahdan

It doesn't matter what your version of genius is. You can't go against English language. Henceforth, your version of genius is only a misuse of the word.

- Your interpretation of characters based on incorrect usage of words speaks volumes. If you don't have a decent command over the language, it'll be much better if you didn't discuss topics that require you to use extensive, stretchy sentences, and complex analysis. It will obviously be beyond your ability. This is not disrespect, just blunt take on your poor logic, and calling others 'a wall of bricks' yet refusing to face up to the facts that you are unable to grasp things due to language barrier.

- I never asked for your opinions, nor do I care about them. I apologize for thinking you had some sort of reason in your head and maturity to discuss things in a civil manner. I hate bothersome people, case in point.

Oh, so it doesn't matter what word "genius" means to me? Your definition of genius doesn't intrest me as well. I can say I know geniuses, people who are smarter than everyone you possibly know. People, who can't be described in words, because it's hard to call them humans, not computers. Aizen is just intelligent sociopath, and you're just another Aizen fanboy, who thinks he's smarter than person he's discussing with and wanting to show how superior you are. (you are not)
The fact you use english better doesn't intrest me as well. I'm sure I can use French, German and Polish better than you. Using fact, that english is my 3rd language against me is childish and shows how immature in discussion you actually are. Knowledge of language has nothing to do with it. If I had known english better, maybe you would have understood what I wanted to say (or not, you're ignorant brat who needs to show his superiorty in internet).

Good day to you, and thank you for that discussion. At least now I know I should improve my english.

October 17, 2012, 01:52 PM

shahdan

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0Xellos

So Ichi can't be called a genius because he didn't do anything like that?

If this will blow over into an argument, then let's stop here. But regardless, yes, he hasn't shown much impressive feats for me to declare him a genius. And Gin obviously wanted Ichigo as a back up plan if he failed, he didn't look serious at all.

October 18, 2012, 11:01 AM

0Xellos

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Quote:

Originally Posted by shahdan

If this will blow over into an argument, then let's stop here. But regardless, yes, he hasn't shown much impressive feats for me to declare him a genius. And Gin obviously wanted Ichigo as a back up plan if he failed, he didn't look serious at all.

Nah, no need to.
You don't see Ichi as a genius because he didn't do anything as impressive as certain other chars. That is true, he didn't.
I, on the other hand, see smaller achievements, but in a very short time. That short time makes him a genius for me, not the overall achievements, because my definition of genius is mainly by speed of growth.
The way I see it, those 2 views are not comparable - both are correct in its own right. I could at most have Cookie monster use its MS on you :D

Don't forget to not say something you might regret later while arguing with someone. Keep it civil.

October 18, 2012, 01:29 PM

shahdan

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0Xellos

Nah, no need to.
You don't see Ichi as a genius because he didn't do anything as impressive as certain other chars. That is true, he didn't.
I, on the other hand, see smaller achievements, but in a very short time. That short time makes him a genius for me, not the overall achievements, because my definition of genius is mainly by speed of growth.
The way I see it, those 2 views are not comparable - both are correct in its own right. I could at most have Cookie monster use its MS on you :D

I respect your opinion. I on the other hand have a different take on the word 'genius' and go by the classic definition; the innate ability to absorb more knowledge and apply it effectively. Ichigo doesn't fall into this category for me, only Aizen and Gin do.

Don't forget to not say something you might regret later while arguing with someone. Keep it civil.

I hope this warning was not directed at me, because I kept the discussion civil to the very end.

It's not directed at anybody in particular, that's what PMs are for ^^ - Darj

October 18, 2012, 05:05 PM

NoOneInParticular

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

I'd say that by that definition, Ichigo is a genius, but only in certain skills. It's been stated a few times that he was picking up sword fighting skills with great speed. Also, Urahara's device allowed him to achieve bankai, but that was only because he had already reached the point where he was able to physically manifest Zangetsu in the outside world, in his fight with Kenpachi. He's also demonstrated an ability to pick up on his opponent's tactics mid-battle. He did this against Renji, when he worked out that Zabimaru could only extend 3 times in a row (he was proven wrong, but still), and more notably when he figured out Gin's bankai, despite Gin's attempt to misdirect his attention. In other areas, he's certainly lacking. Like Renji, I don't think Ichigo will ever be a Kido practitioner.

I've started wondering about Aizen, though. I disagreed with the notion that having Kyoka Suigetsu somehow meant he wasn't one, he just looked like one, but the thing is we don't know how he ended up so powerful. He might have been born that strong, or he might have spent centuries working up to that level. Ichigo suggests it was the former, but he doesn't really know. But if Aizen was born able to do all of this, then can he still be called a genius, having never had to learn? Or does that in fact make him a genius? Hmmm.

Anyway, I will concede that as others have mentioned, he had an intimate knowledge of his enemies' tactics and protocol, so it was relatively easy for him to predict what SS would do and act accordingly. Still, he qualifies as an able tactician and manipulator. He's undeniably intelligent, what with his numerous scientific developments. He's also shown that he's capable of quick deduction, as demonstrated with how he handled Shinji's shikai ability.

October 20, 2012, 02:11 PM

shahdan

Re: Natural Talents and Genius Concept in Bleach

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular

I'd say that by that definition, Ichigo is a genius, but only in certain skills. It's been stated a few times that he was picking up sword fighting skills with great speed. Also, Urahara's device allowed him to achieve bankai, but that was only because he had already reached the point where he was able to physically manifest Zangetsu in the outside world, in his fight with Kenpachi. He's also demonstrated an ability to pick up on his opponent's tactics mid-battle. He did this against Renji, when he worked out that Zabimaru could only extend 3 times in a row (he was proven wrong, but still), and more notably when he figured out Gin's bankai, despite Gin's attempt to misdirect his attention. In other areas, he's certainly lacking. Like Renji, I don't think Ichigo will ever be a Kido practitioner.

I've started wondering about Aizen, though. I disagreed with the notion that having Kyoka Suigetsu somehow meant he wasn't one, he just looked like one, but the thing is we don't know how he ended up so powerful. He might have been born that strong, or he might have spent centuries working up to that level. Ichigo suggests it was the former, but he doesn't really know. But if Aizen was born able to do all of this, then can he still be called a genius, having never had to learn? Or does that in fact make him a genius? Hmmm.

Anyway, I will concede that as others have mentioned, he had an intimate knowledge of his enemies' tactics and protocol, so it was relatively easy for him to predict what SS would do and act accordingly. Still, he qualifies as an able tactician and manipulator. He's undeniably intelligent, what with his numerous scientific developments. He's also shown that he's capable of quick deduction, as demonstrated with how he handled Shinji's shikai ability.

Your last point about Shinji's Zampaktou elaborates even more on what I have been trying to say. Aizen deduced it in a mere minute or two. Even though it was absolutely impossible to figure it out as the entire thing worked in reverse for the vision.

December 17, 2012, 03:40 AM

Hakuteiken

Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

Quote:

Originally Posted by notBowen

I don't know if it was explicit but in Renji's conversation with Ikkaku he labeled Ikkaku as being the only VC with a bankai and one presumes that if Kaien had achieved bankai Aaroniero would have utilized it.

Also during Turn Back the Pendulum Kaien wasn't even yet a VC so it's doubtful he would have achieved bankai in such a short timespan.

It maybe about third seats, since Ikkaku isn't a VC, though.
But probably Aaroniero would have access to it, you are right.

By looking at the respective periods, it is plausible indeed. Byakuya became a captain around 49 years ago and Renji wasn't even a VC at that point. He had just recently joined the Gotei 13, I guess, like Rukia or even later than her, since Rukia's graduation was setup by the Kuchiki family. He achieved the Bankai in less than 50 years, without being a genius.

110 years ago, Kaien was referred to as a genius and he was 13th Squad's VC by the time Rukia joined Gotei 13, which means the amount of time passed between is around 61 years or so. So, in my opinion, for Kaien to achieve Bankai in such a period of time should be at least within possibilities, even if he didn't quite achieve it.

Um, now that you mention it, it confused me a bit, for sure.
Then, it's not a total disintegration. Probably that possessing Hollow absorbed his Zanpakuto's spirit, as well. It now makes sense that Kaien apparently didn't have a Bankai.

Though I don't like it when a genius was unable to achieve Bankai in so much time.
110 years ago, Byakuya was a teenager kid and around 50 years ago, he was promoted. In about 60 years of training, he achieved Bankai and he wasn't considered to be a genius, since Gin was the successor genius to Kaien.
I don't like this, hm.

December 17, 2012, 07:17 AM

0Xellos

Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

Kaien losing his zan isn't that much of a deal, especially considering shikai can be repaired. As long as Aaroniero had access to Kaien's reiatsu, he could recreate the sword with all the powers it had (and no reason to think Kaien had bankai, he was too young for that even as a genius).

December 17, 2012, 07:28 AM

Hakuteiken

Re: Bleach 520 Discussion / 521 Predictions

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0Xellos

Kaien losing his zan isn't that much of a deal, especially considering shikai can be repaired. As long as Aaroniero had access to Kaien's reiatsu, he could recreate the sword with all the powers it had (and no reason to think Kaien had bankai, he was too young for that even as a genius).

I can agree more or less about the recreation of the zanpakuto, but he wasn't really that young when he died. He was at least around the age Renji achieved Bankai or a bit older than that. It may still be considered a young age for one to achieve Bankai, but not shocking.
As I said, it was around that age that Byakuya already achieved the Bankai (because he was promoted already), so, it's not something unprecedented.