What ceasefire? There never was a ceasefire. How could there be a ceasefire? The Palestinians of Gaza have been under brutal occupation for over 40 years. Furthermore, in the last 2 years Gaza has been blockaded on land, on sea, and in the f#####g air!!! Apartheid Israel has allowed nothing in or out---except maybe a trickle of food and medicine, now and then. And for Israeli apartheid apologists who still insist that there was a ceasefire and that Hamas broke it, here's the headline from the Nov. 5, 2008 Guardian:

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen

A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

Since the withdrawal of Israeli terrorist settlers from Gaza in 2005, Israeli apartheid soldiers have frequently raided Gaza.

Qassam Rockets:

What can I say about these crude, fertilizer-based rockets? Even the Israeli Apatheid "Defense" Forces have said that these "weapons" cause more of a psychological scare than a physical threat. Now, if one these Qassams were to land directlly on one's head, ...

Note: In the last 7 years, you can count the number of Israeli dead from Qassam rockets on your fingers! Would you like me to count the number of Palestinians and Lebanese killed by Israeli apartheid soldiers in the last 7 years?

Lebanon 2006 Redux:

You'd think that apartheid Israel would have learned its lesson from its humiliating defeat in Lebanon: You can't bomb a proud people into submission!

I guess not.

Can you imagine a Hezbollah fighter and an Israeli apartheid soldier in one-on-one combat? Neither can I. The Israeli apartheid soldier, after soiling his uniform (paid for by the American taxpayer), would be running like the dickens home (most probably Brooklyn).

The Arab Regimes:

All COWARDS!---Egypt being the most pathetic of all.

President-Elect Obama:

His silence is deafening. Looks like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) got their money's worth. If they can buy a politician, and an American president at that, good for them I say. Maybe the other Washington lobbyist groups can learn a lesson or two from the pro-Israel lobby. Here's the headline from AIPAC's website:

Indeed! The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against the brutal occupation of their homeland. Occupation soldiers and illegal settlers have no rights. A good occupation soldier is a dead occupation soldier. (Excuse the cliche )

One Last Note...

Does the following quote sound racist?

"Once a Jewish state is established, I can come to the Jewish citizens, whom we call American Jews, and say to them 'you are citizens with equal rights, but the national solution for you is elsewhere,'" the Secretary of State was quoted by CNN as saying to students at a New York city high school.

If Condoleeza Rice ever uttered such a horrible statement, she would be rightly called an antisemite. Notwithstanding her direct complicity in American war crimes, Condi (to me and her close friends) never made such a racist statement. However, apartheid Israel's Acting Prime Minister, Foreign Affairs Minister, and Current War Criminal, TZIPI LIVNI, did. Here's the extract from the Dec. 11, 2008 Haaretz.com edition:

Livni: National aspirations of Israel's Arabs can be met by Palestinian homeland

By Haaretz Service and News Agencies

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Thursday that the creation of a Palestinian state would serve as a solution to national aspirations of Israel's Arab citizens.

"Once a Palestinian state is established, I can come to the Palestinian citizens, whom we call Israeli Arabs, and say to them 'you are citizens with equal rights, but the national solution for you is elsewhere,'" Livni was quoted by Army Radio as saying to students at a Tel Aviv high school.

Way to go, Tzipi! If ethnic cleansing first succeeds, try, try---do try---again!

best,

~PeterD

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

Also, as Interaxus noted, it is no laughing matter. Palestinian deaths in Gaza have now surpassed 500. Palestinian wounded number in the thousands. They, the wounded, are the unfortunate ones---unfortunate to survive their initial wounds. The hospitals have no electricity to function properly. Medical supplies are very low. No painkillers. Yeah, the wounded envy the dead. And yet, on CNN and other mainstream American news outlets, viewers are constantly reminded that 4 Israelis have been killed since hostilities started. Here's today's headline from http://www.cnn.com:

Civilians on both sides caught in crossfire

Both sides? The Palestinians are being shot like fish in a barrel.

Have I mentioned already my disgust for the Arab regimes? They---Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, et al---are complicit in the Israeli massacres in Gaza.

best,

PeterD

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

... and when all this mess started I thought it was only a matter of time before he re-appeared.

I rarely posted because I did not, unfortunately, have the leisure to participate here. Now that I've restarted my Homeric studies, I intend to post (some would say "offend" ) more often.

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

You know, the ceasefire---if you can have a ceasefire between the occupier and the occupied!---that was signed in June 2008 was holding even though Israel was not abiding by the ceasefire terms: the lessening of the blockade on the people of Gaza and the cessation of raids into Gaza. Hamas had not fired a single rocket into Israel despite Israeli violations to the agreement. It was only when Israel launched a deadly raid into Gaza (Nov. 2008) that Hamas retaliated with the Qassam rockets. The mainstream press conveniently neglects this important fact. Therefore, Israel not only has the blood of murdered Palestinians on its hands, but the blood of dead Israelis killed by the Qassam rockets---all 4 of them!

Speaking of the mainstream press...

On the Larrry King show the other night, Larry had this clown Alan Dershowitz on to defend the current Israeli war crimes (as if war crimes can ever be defended!). Dershowitz kept railing on and on about how Hamas is to blame for this, that Israel is only defending its citizens, and how any other country would have done the same as Israel. An one point, Dershowitz went off script and mentioned the Israeli occupation. Instead of Larry King seizing on this, he simply snoozed away. He could have asked a no-brainer question like, "Don't you think, Alan, that the turmoil in Gaza is a result of the occupation---41 years of occupation?" No, he didn't. The 105-year-old Larry King just snooooooooozed away.

It's not just CNN. On the front page of The Financial Times there was mention of Israel's advance in the "Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip". Why not just say "Gaza Strip"? Why qualify "Gaza" with "Hamas-controlled"? No kidding Hamas controls Gaza---they are the ELECTED government of Gaza. Nobody ever says, for example, "the Republican-controlled United States entered into trade talks...." No, they have to mention Hamas because Hamas to Anglo-American eyes and ears equals terrorism.

Best,

PeterD

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

That is disputable. According to some fanatics, the end will come when Israel does not exist.

PeterD wrote:You know, the ceasefire---if you can have a ceasefire between the occupier and the occupied!---that was signed in June 2008 was holding even though Israel was not abiding by the ceasefire terms: the lessening of the blockade on the people of Gaza and the cessation of raids into Gaza. Hamas had not fired a single rocket into Israel despite Israeli violations to the agreement. It was only when Israel launched a deadly raid into Gaza (Nov. 2008) that Hamas retaliated with the Qassam rockets.

The agreement gave the right to Israel patrolling the region for not smuggling weapons and all sort of munitions to Gaza. Part of the agreement was also, Palaistinians will not do that. The story is well known. Smuggling weapons and arming the paramilitia, and as long they have enough katushas for the moment, they start launching them. Just to make another show off to the world audience. The old motto is like this "look here, IDF is firing at little kids and innocent people (preferable dead babies, but school boys will do)". I have a question, why are they using mosques as warehouses for munitions? Is the roof of a school better fitted for launching rockets, than the ground?

PeterD wrote:The mainstream press conveniently neglects this important fact. Therefore, Israel not only has the blood of murdered Palestinians on its hands, but the blood of dead Israelis killed by the Qassam rockets---all 4 of them!

Speaking of the mainstream press...

On the Larrry King show the other night, Larry had this clown Alan Dershowitz on to defend the current Israeli war crimes (as if war crimes can ever be defended!). Dershowitz kept railing on and on about how Hamas is to blame for this, that Israel is only defending its citizens, and how any other country would have done the same as Israel. An one point, Dershowitz went off script and mentioned the Israeli occupation. Instead of Larry King seizing on this, he simply snoozed away. He could have asked a no-brainer question like, "Don't you think, Alan, that the turmoil in Gaza is a result of the occupation---41 years of occupation?" No, he didn't. The 105-year-old Larry King just snooooooooozed away.

It's not just CNN. On the front page of The Financial Times there was mention of Israel's advance in the "Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip". Why not just say "Gaza Strip"? Why qualify "Gaza" with "Hamas-controlled"? No kidding Hamas controls Gaza---they are the ELECTED government of Gaza. Nobody ever says, for example, "the Republican-controlled United States entered into trade talks...." No, they have to mention Hamas because Hamas to Anglo-American eyes and ears equals terrorism.

It's not just CNN. On the front page of The Financial Times there was mention of Israel's advance in the "Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip". Why not just say "Gaza Strip"? Why qualify "Gaza" with "Hamas-controlled"? No kidding Hamas controls Gaza---they are the ELECTED government of Gaza. Nobody ever says, for example, "the Republican-controlled United States entered into trade talks...." No, they have to mention Hamas because Hamas to Anglo-American eyes and ears equals terrorism.

The proclamation and only purpose of Hamas is to exterminate Israel. This was even officially written in their charta. That's enough for me to declare them as terrorists. How is it possible to accept Israel to have talks with them. The same happened once with PLO, and they were only recognized the moment they dropped their proclamation. If Israel didn't invade, Hamas and PLO would end in a civil war, creating more deaths (and among the dead bodies, probably we'll find also children).

ThomasGR wrote:That is disputable. According to some fanatics, the end will come when Israel does not exist.

These Palestinian "fanatics" are no more a threat to Israel's existence than Canadians or Mexicans are a threat to the existence of United States. Mexicans simply seek work; Canadians just want to make out with California girls, which explains why there are approx. 2,000,000 Canadian expats living in California!

Anyway, this "end of Israel" is cultivated by Zionists, in Israel and abroad, to justify the brutal military occupation of the Palestinian people, AND, more importantly, as a distraction to avoid a just political settlement to the conflict---that is, a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel, and a solution to the refugee problem.

The agreement gave the right to Israel patrolling the region for not smuggling weapons and all sort of munitions to Gaza. Part of the agreement was also, Palaistinians will not do that. The story is well known. Smuggling weapons and arming the paramilitia, and as long they have enough katushas for the moment, they start launching them. Just to make another show off to the world audience.

No, TG.

The ceasefire agreement, signed between Israel and occupied Gaza and brokered by Egypt, began in June 2008. Under the terms of the ceasefire agreement,...

Gaza would cease all rocket attacks into Israel;

Israel would lessen the 2-year siege on Gaza;

Israel would HALT ALL MILITARY OPERATIONS in Gaza.

Israel's military operation on November 4 that killed several Palestinians was a blatant violation of the ceasefire terms. Up until that point, there were no provocations by Hamas---not one Qassam rockect was fired into apartheid Israel. (Btw, TG, it's "Qassam," not "Katushas." The Katushas were used by Hezbollah when Israel invaded Lebanon in 2006. Remember that war crime? Thousands of Lebanese civilians were either killed or maimed by the Israeli "Defense" Forces.) Your assertion that "the agreement gave the right to Israel [to] patrol the region [to prevent] smuggling weapons and all sort of munitions to Gaza" is simply not true. Besides, Israel has never denied that they violated the ceasefire terms---even the Zionists at CNN have acknowledged that Israel was first to violate the ceasefire.

It is true, though, that the Palestinians HAVE been using tunnels for smuggling. That's because Israel is ALSO IN VIOLATION OF ITS OBLIGATION TO LESSEN THE 2-YEAR SIEGE ON GAZA. This economic strangulation has made life so unbearable for all Palestinians that no kidding there going to resort to "smuggling"---life neccessities like food, medicine, clothing, and, ...

... yes, weapons, too! Lest you have forgotten, an occupied people have the right to defend themselves; occupiers have no rights whatsoever, except maybe to self destruct. Hopefully, the Palestinians smuggled plenty of antitank missiles to blow those Israeli tanks to smithereens. But Zionists need not be alarmed. Unlike Israel, the 4th largest military power in the world, courtesy of the American taxpayer, Palestinians possess no air force, no navy, no tanks, no artillery, and... no nukes.

Furthermore, like the invasion of Lebanon in 2006, so, too, was this invasion planned---down to the last bullet, long before any Qassam rockects were ever fired into Israel. Dan Gillerman, Israel's ambassador to the UN until recently, has admitted as much.

The old motto is like this "look here, IDF is firing at little kids and innocent people (preferable dead babies, but school boys will do)".

You figure the death of 42 people in an Israeli attack at a UN-run school in Gaza a couple of days was also a display?

"Look here, IDF is firing at a UN-run school and innocent people ..."

C'mon, TG. Even a shitty zionist like Thomas Friedman has reported in the past that Israel bombs indiscriminately! You don't recall Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon which caused the death of nearly 18,000 cvilians---almost all "little kids" and "innocent people"?

I have a question, why are they using mosques as warehouses for munitions? Is the roof of a school better fitted for launching rockets, than the ground?

Since when is a UN-run school a warehouse for munitions?

Since when is a girls' dormitory a warehouse for munitions?

Since when are ambulances a warehouse for munitions?

From the International Solodarity Movement (palsolidarity.org), an NGO founded by both Israelis and Palestinians to protest through nonviolent means the occupation of Palestinian land:

In addition to the doctor and medic that the Israeli military murdered on the 31st of December, they have killed four more medics today. One was shot in Jabaliya, one in Al Sheikh Ejleen. Three have just been killed when a missile directly hit their ambulance in the Tal Hawye neighborhood in Gaza City. The medics are constantly in contact with the Red Cross for them to negotiate passage with the Israelis. The Israelis constantly refuse.Sharon Lock (Australia) – International Solidarity Movement

The Israelis dropped a bomb in front of our ambulance to prevent us accessing wounded people. However a donkey cart emerged carrying a wounded family; a mother and father and three teenage brothers. One of the teenagers was attempting to shield the other two with a blanket. They were both horrifically injured, I could see the lungs of one of them. As I assisted the medics to move him off the cart I found my hand inside his body.Alberto Arce (Spain) – International Solidarity Movement

Israel has continued to violate international conventions by attacking medical personnel. They are massacring the people of Gaza. With the swelling number of civilian casualties, Israel must ensure that medical assistance is available. Instead, they are intentionally targeting the medical teams that are meant to be protected by the Geneva Conventions. Israel’s disregard for international law must be confronted by the international community. Vittorio Arrigoni (Italy) – International Solidarity Movement

The proclamation and only purpose of Hamas is to exterminate Israel. This was even officially written in their charta. That's enough for me to declare them as terrorists.

Let me get this straight. Israel kills Palestinians at will, steals their land, steals their resources, humiliates them, and when the Palestinians dare to resist this racist for-Jews-only entity they're called "terrorists." Go figure.

And how exactly is Hamas going to destroy the 4th largest milithary power in the world that also has the steadfast support of the largest military power this planet has ever seen, TG, by lobbing pretzels into Israel?

TG, what Hamas has in their charter is beside the point. What's important is what the Palestinian people want. (Remember: the Palestinian people elected Hamas, the Palestinian people can UNelect Hamas.) And they want to live like human beings, free and proud, in their own state, just like the Israelis, not like caged animals in a zoo as they have been "living" for the last 41 years. The majority of the Palestinian people, as many polls suggest, would accept a two-state solution along the pre-June 1967 borders, including East Jerusalem, with a just solution to the refugee problem. Unfortunately, the United States and Israel have been opposing a viable two-state solution for over 30 years.

How is it possible to [not] accept Israel [and] to have talks with them. The same happened once with PLO, and they were only recognized the moment they dropped their proclamation.

An honest rephrasing of your question would be , "How is it possible for an occupied people to have talks with their occupiers?"

And yet, it is possible. As Chomsky so elegantly put it, "peace talks is between enemies not lovers." Just like the Vietnamese and Americans sat done to conduct peace talks, so, too, can Hamas or any other elected representive of the Palestinian people sit down with the Israeli government. Once both parties sign on their respective dotted lines and its accepted by both the majority of Palestinians and the majority of Israelis, the rest as they say is history.

For the record, Israel has never recognized the Palestinians' right to have a state. Never. Now how do like dem apples, TG?

Thank you for your input, TG.

best,

~PeterD

Last edited by PeterD on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

I am willing to side with Palestinians and give them all the justice, if they were not such stupid people. In another statistic I read that in the last 6 years there were 10 000 Qassam (Katushas or whatever they are called) fired towards Israeli villages, all coming from Gaza. Most of these rockets are just fireworks, not even coming close to the Israeli villages, and less making any damage. So why are they launching them? To provoke the other side, so as the IDF will start killing them. And then, they will show pictures of dead bodies of children. Clever strategy. In my part of this shitty world, in case of a war, we run and give first of all to our offspring secure bomb shelters. This does not happen in Palestine. They command their children to run up and down the streets throwing stones and shouting, while bombs are falling everywhere, and men are hiding in schools and minarets. That's called human shield. It's too easy to denounce this all as Zionist propaganda.

I am serious about this. The motivation behind those useless rockets is too obvious to hold any doubts. The same goes about their stupidity. One may start pitying them and accuse those brutal Hebrews, but on the long run, they won't gain anything other than scratching your head and wondering about their mental health, and if they are worth helping them. Europe spends quite a lot money for financial help and their development (at least Europe did that some years back), and their only concern is how to blow all that money in the air with those useless ridiculous rockets.

In modern Greek, there is a nice proverb: "Σαν την μαϊμού (Palestinians) που πάει να ξεσκίσει την τίγρη (Israel)!". Egoistic frustration and anger is a bad adviser to deal with human lives and play politics.

ThomasGR wrote:In another statistic I read that in the last 6 years there were 10 000 Qassam (Katushas or whatever they are called) fired towards Israeli villages, all coming from Gaza. Most of these rockets are just fireworks, not even coming close to the Israeli villages, and less making any damage. So why are they launching them? To provoke the other side, so as the IDF will start killing them. And then, they will show pictures of dead bodies of children.

Amadeus wrote:You can't really be serious, Thomas. You really think the Palestinians (all of them, not just Hamas) are provoking Israel to get themselves killed and then seek the pity of the world? Sheesh.

ThomasGR wrote:I am serious about this.

παραπάτησες , μεγάλε.

The Israeli military has been pimping this outrageous lie for years.

Think about it, my fellow Greek. If this were the case, then why is the Israeli military barring ALL journalists from entering Gaza? Surely they'd want the whole world to witness such a horrid spectacle by the Palestinians, no?

According to U.N. sources, 257 Palestinian children have been killed and over 1000 wounded since Israel's invasion of Gaza. I doubt very much their parents pushed them into incoming Israeli missiles!

P.S. TG, you made a valid and inciteful point regarding the launching of Qassam rockets into Israel. I'll comment on it in my next post.

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

According to U.N. sources, 257 Palestinian children have been killed and over 1000 wounded since Israel's invasion of Gaza. I doubt very much their parents pushed them into incoming Israeli missiles!

I have no doubts. The first goal of Hamas should be to provide secure bomb shelters to the children and evacuate the area (at least of the children). They do not. Almost every journalist reports this, after they come back at home and their reports are not censored. They push the children to stay outside, where they do not belong. Instead of blowing those ridiculous qassam, better spend all that money by building bomb shelters. Children die, and this is also Hamas' fault. It's not enough to accuse only the Israelis.

My proverb stands also for the Greek Revolution. Had it not been for the Europeans who sided with Greece, for their own motivations and selfish goals and not out of pure love for the Greeks, we would be still throwing stones to the giant Ottoman Empire, whereas the Ottomans would drop bombs with their super-modern F16 on our heads. I don't think one can compare the Greek revolution with Palestine. But in case one can do this, they should better spend their time studying modern history and history of wars, hoping they might learn something, and not blowing themselves by hijacking airplanes.

I have said what is to say, one point remains to highlight.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umlWYGLi ... re=relatedI do only oppose Hamas and their sick strategy to peace. They are pure lunatics, that's all. I object also all the Palestinians who voted those lunatics to govern them. They (the voters) are not innocents, but have their shares to this madness.

ThomasGR wrote:I have said what is to say, one point remains to highlight.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umlWYGLi ... re=relatedI do only oppose Hamas and their sick strategy to peace. They are pure lunatics, that's all. I object also all the Palestinians who voted those lunatics to govern them. They (the voters) are not innocents, but have their shares to this madness.

Wow! I can't believe you posted this link, TG.

Did it occur to you to check the source first? (Sheesh, as Amadeus would say) Palestinian Media Watch (pmw.org) is a pro-Israeli, pro-settlement, pro-occupation, BULLSHIT SITE. Its founder and director is none other than Itamar Marcus---a right wing Israeli settler freak. They don't get any nuttier than him. The English translation you see printed comes "courtesy" of pmw; it is not reliable.

What can I say, TG, other than "πιάστικες κορόιδο". Κρήμας... σε είχα για σοβαρό.

best,

~PeterD

p.s. I haven't forgotten your other points. I'll eventually comment. It's just that your link to the freaky pmw site through me for a loop---a "wtf?" loop.

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

I am wondering all the time if this "Sheesh" is directed towards me, or towards the dirty war in Palestine. I like to think it is the second case.

Whatever, keep in mind that we deal here with a quite different culture where human life don't count that much, and children less. do not surprise if they command their kids to follow closely a freedom fighter, for freedom fighter's protection (knowing the Israelis would hesitate to open fire at them) and for the kids to learn and take lessons how to become a brave martyr. Make a search in the Internet to get plenty of videos from witnesses how they call for the civilians to gather on the top of roofs, to make a fireplace to warm their hands but also for the Israeli DF to become aware of their existence. They (the IDF) might hesitate to drop the bombs. And if despite of all this they do, reporters stand by ready to take pictures and broadcast videos of the Zionist brutality. Among the civilians are plenty of kids ready to become heroes.

Also keep always in mind, this is primarily a propaganda war and not a conventional war, not even like a guerrilla war used to be in past decades, in Viet Nam or South America. Not at all. The real battle field is the internet (and to lesser extent the news in tv and old press). What we write here and in other forums counts to them by far more than deaths of few (or many) babies. That's another culture and they have other values to follow. If you want to save some children's lives, stop falling into their traps. Many babies will thank you.

For my part, the "sheesh" was directed at your simplistic view of things, Thomas. I respect your ideas on other areas of knowledge, but in this case I cannot help but roll my eyes at your assertions that the Palestinians are themselves to blame. You did not bother to make a distinction between Hamas (and nobody here, I presume, cares about Hamas) and the broader population who just wants to live normal lives. They voted for Hamas, sure, but did they vote for the destruction of Israel? I don't think that's the case. Before Israelis pulled out of Gaza, Hamas was very different in terms of how they managed life for the Gazans. They built schools and hospitals... they got things done. This is what, in my view, the Gazans voted for. On the contrary, to say that the broader population is just as blood-thirsty as the Hamas combatants, or to view them as a lowly, stupid race, is plain wrong, and betrays a complete lack of empathy. (Reminds me of how the West viewed those "damn Japs" during World War II.)

I really don't care at this moment if Hamas or Israel started this. Both have been at each others throat for a long time. What I care most about is the suffering of the innocent and defenseless, be they Palestinians or Israelis (though most of the suffering is on the Palestinian side).

I love how it's either/or in this case: The Israelis are 100% to blame for ALL the trouble in the region or the Palestinians are 100% to blame for the same. They are also to be blamed in bulk it seems. Interesting and to keep in mind next time someone says "all Greeks are X" I guess

Another thing I just love is how one wrong justifies another. For some reason I keep having flashes of me in kindergarden and elementary school trying to excuse myself to my mom in a rather whinny voice and she replying with the quite useful (and true) cliches out of the "Handbook for mothers across the globe".

I don't think my views are so much simplistic. They are quite elaborated (I think). Hamas, Palestinians or whatever they like to call their organizations may have all the rights to make wars and free their homeland, as long they fall not on such dirty tricks like human shields and showing pictures of dead babies to applaud to my sympathy or empathy or whatever. Thinks don't work always this way, every person working in the advertisement knows that too well. Mostly, the results are (not surprisingly) negative for the advertisant. Time has come they learn that too. And the voters are not innocent, they new what Hams stands for, aside from news papers, Hamas has the monopoly in broad casting in this region. Search the internet to have a taste yourselves, what they broadcast and what dreams they have for the future in this region. Simplistic view is to denounce all the facts by just shouting "this is Zionist propaganda shame on you (me)". Sheeeshh

No, I do not have a plan of action. This problem between Muslims and Jews is beyond me. So I guess it's up to each person to decide whether he wants to listen to me or not (this is a free world, no?)

IreneY wrote:I love how it's either/or in this case...

If there's one thing I've learned from studying History, is that human actions are complicated, and most of the time they are neither fully right or fully wrong. So I neither subscribe to Bush's "War on Terror" nor to the Islamic extremists' "it's ALL a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy" theories.

ThomasGR wrote:I don't think my views are so much simplistic. They are quite elaborated (I think). Hamas, Palestinians or whatever they like to call their organizations...

What?! Palestinians are not an organization!

...such dirty tricks like human shields and showing pictures of dead babies to applaud to my sympathy or empathy or whatever.

I see, so they show their dead to gain sympathy for... what? Money? If it's so simple, why don't the Western governments and media simply ignore them? Why do they constantly fall into their "trap"? Unless you say that they too are stupid and ignorant?

Simplistic view is to denounce all the facts by just shouting "this is Zionist propaganda shame on you (me)". Sheeeshh

You are right on the money there! (Could we stop using the expression "sheesh", please? It's making me nauseous.)

...such dirty tricks like human shields and showing pictures of dead babies to applaud to my sympathy or empathy or whatever.

I see, so they show their dead to gain sympathy for... what? Money? If it's so simple, why don't the Western governments and media simply ignore them? Why do they constantly fall into their "trap"? Unless you say that they too are stupid and ignorant?

No one is stupid. governments don't fall on this. Aside from verbal condemnations, just to calm their voters and the public opinion (antisemitism has deep roots), they support Israel and curse Hamas. The same goes also for the entire Arab world (Iran is not an Arab country). Even Hezbollah wants to be a good boy, denies every support and tears their fleshes apart swearing that they don't have anything to do with the rockets that are fired in south Lebanon last days. I think, the whole Arab world has empowered Israel to make a short process with Hamas and end this madness. They have learned their lessons, good achievements. The Arabs feel deep gratitude towards Israel, they pray to God Israel will not disappoint them. Newspapers are a different case. Antisemitism is in the rise in Europe, they have to make business as usual. Money? Yes, of course, it's money. Dead bodies, especially dead babies, sell very well. Sudan and its genocide is too far away to make any profitable business, I try to remember how its region is called and failed (Darfur?). Besides, there are no Jews involved. This is outrageous blasphemous (...that no Jews are involved in that genocide). (Simplicity rulez!).

IreneY wrote:Interesting and to keep in mind next time someone says "all Greeks are X" I guess

If you recall my fair textkitten, I did say that Greeks like you were the exception. And if you're half as good looking as you are smart, then you're one kickass superbabe. !

Greece consistently ranks behind most---if not all---developed countries in the maths and sciences. (Do you see any irony there?) On every street corner in Greece there is a φροντιστίριο. Their purpose being not to complement the public education system---as they do in Southeast Asia---but to help Greek students catch up. How embarrassing. Next, the Greek used on the radio and TV is atrocious (don't get me started on the newspapers). Is it any wonder Greeks can't speak proper Greek. Next, if a Greek wants to learn ancient Greek---enough. Listen, I regret saying it, that is, airing Greece's "dirty laundry" (plug your nose) here. I said it because, as a Greek (I have dual Can-Gr citizenship), I give a hoot. That's it. Finished.

Irene wrote:

My, what a beautiful smile you have, Irene.

On topic...

Another thing I just love is how one wrong justifies another.

What "wrong" have the occupied people of Gaza committed upon their occupiers?

edit: typos

Last edited by PeterD on Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

What are you talking about, and what does this have to do with the occupied people of Palestine?

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

annis wrote:Lots of people are have died in this mess, and many more lives have been made quite miserable.

By "lots of people" you obviously meant "Palestinians," right?

Latest news reports have at least 820 Palestinians dead.

Repeat: 820+ Palestinian dead for 4 Israeli dead.

Are you appalled by this as I am?

Do any of you have some plan of action that people not in the halls of power for the Hamas or Israeli governments can practically do? If not, why should the rest of us listen to you?

Actually, the principles for a "plan of action" have been embodied in UN resolution 242 and later UN resolutions calling for full Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza---that is, full withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders---and the creation of a Palestinian state in these territories in exchange for the unconditional recognition of Israel.

That has been the international consensus for decades. It has been accepted by the Palestinian Authority, the Arab league and---yes!---even Hamas. Unfortunately, your country and Israel have always opposed it.

Go to the United Nations website unispal.org (United Nations Information System on the Question of Palestine). Every year---every year!---the General Assembly votes on a resolution on the settlement of the Palestine conflict. Here's an excerpt from the December 1, 2006 vote:

Stressing the need for realization of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, primarily the right to self-determination and the right to their independent State, the Assembly adopted, by a recorded vote of 157 in favour to 7 against (Australia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, United States), with 10 abstentions, an orally amended text on the "peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine," which stressed the need for Israel's withdrawal from the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967.

Every year, William, the vote is basically the same: The United States, Israel, and some Pacific atoll "superpowers", like Nauru, versus the rest of the world.

You see the problem now?

Unless you were playing devil's advocate here, William, I am a bit surprised that you didn't know this. I mean anyone who knows the reason why Hamas was elected to represent the Palestinian people surely must know why there has not been a political settlement all these years.

Epideictic oratory is entertaining and all but when [Palestinians] are dying, after a while it just seems so much self-righteous posturing.

Yes... ThomasGR is quite the entertaining chap.

Last edited by PeterD on Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

ThomasGR wrote:Besides, Hamas does not recognize UN. They all are Zionists, filtrated and penetrated by Jews, pigs and apes.

Please stop fooling around, TG.

Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just.---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

annis wrote:Lots of people are have died in this mess, and many more lives have been made quite miserable.

By "lots of people" you obviously meant "Palestinians," right?

Latest news reports have at least 820 Palestinians dead.

No, I did not mean Palestinians. Nor did I mean just this conflict. I mean what I said — lots of people, people all over the place. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been a festering wound in the region since before I was born (almost 40 years ago, now). Neighboring countries are in constant danger of chaos: Jordan was terrorized by PLO would-be warlords in the 60s; Lebanon, with enough problems of its own, has to contend both with Palestinian organizations but is endlessly interfered with by Iran, generally by way of Syria; Israel lives under constant threat of terrorism or invasion, and its allies become targets, too. The effects of this instability (political, economic, moral) spread out across the world.

Do any of you have some plan of action that people not in the halls of power for the Hamas or Israeli governments can practically do? If not, why should the rest of us listen to you?

Actually, the principles for a "plan of action" have been embodied in UN resolution 242 and later UN resolutions calling for full Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories of the West Bank,

You misunderstand my question. Reciting the wording of a toothless resolution by a slowly dying body with little genuine authority is not a plan of action — just more damn words.

Here's the International Red Cross: http://www.icrc.org/eng — go give them money. They're trying to help the Palestinian civilians being brutalized by this disaster. Find a politician to harass into action (if one can be found who'll listen to someone other than the paymasters). There are plenty organizations in Israel interested in a just peace for themselves and the Palestinians. Find one and find some way to help them.

This disaster has been going on for more than 50 years; the same arguments are churned over for 50 years; the same venting for 50 years. How much longer can all this talking decently go on while people are being brutalized?