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The Kitchen Update

Many thanks for all of the comments about the kitchen, and especially to Susan Serra, who was kind enough to draw several alternative plans.

So far here is what we have addressed:

The Width of the Dining Room

Most readers have been concerned that our dining area will not be wide enough. So Paul and I took a tape measure to our current dining room in New Jersey to get some perspective. And guess what: the proposed 9-foot-wide space looked too tight. We then checked with our advisers — John Agnelli, our builder; Laura Gee, our architect; and Dave Clary, our kitchen designer — to see what they thought, and they, too, thought the space was too narrow. So here are the latest plans that Dave drew up, with the assumption that we have 9’6” of width for the dining room. (John still thinks we should try to get it closer to 10’ if we can.)

What I Like

There is now counter space next to the refrigerator. That means the area can serve as a bar/beverage center, with the wine cooler on the refrigerator wall and the ice maker in the peninsula, but facing the bar. That way, someone who wants a drink won’t have to enter the food-prep space. That will be especially helpful during large gatherings.

The Air Handler Closet

Although many readers are really worried about the air handler closet, Paul and I think it’s going to be fine. It’s about the same depth as the refrigerator (Dave’s drawing is not to scale) and, once we put a refrigerator and cabinets in, I think that wall is going to appear integrated.

We have an air handler in our finished attic space in New Jersey, and the only sound it makes is the gentle whoosh of air being moved.

Still to Address

There is still no place to put the microwave, and the peninsula might need to be a bit shorter so it doesn’t obstruct the work triangle — but we’re getting close.

Don’t want the microwave over the oven? I, personally don’t like that look either, but it would be a place to put it. Something I wish we did when we built our kitchen would have been to put the microwave at waist height so that the kids could reach it. Just a thought…

Of course, I wanted to sink my teeth into the plan. It would have been helpful to have a floor plan, but the detail in these drawings is great.

I want to say that while I may not have designed the kitchen this way, the important thing is that Alison & Paul are happy with it. That’s all that matters.

My intent at this point is just to tweak what has been given, not to redesign the kitchen. I’m guessing that the plan is too far along to reconsider major changes.

That said, I will say again, that I also agree that there is still too little space in the dining area. Much too little. With a table, I had the space being 10’3″ and that was even too small (for the crowds.) I’d consider the bench scenario I brought up. I’ll even say it again…I’m not talking a 2″ cushion. I’m talking a 4-5″ very big, deep, cushion. This makes all the difference. It changes everything.

I’d put another window in between the two windows. I think I saw that they relate to the upper windows, but I do believe it would work aesthetically to add another window in the center of the two “porch” windows.

I still feel, in general, the entire space will feel like a whole lot of kitchen, too much so, in my opinion. I think it will feel confining for more than one person in the C shape. I wish I didn’t have to feel this way, I wish I could say it’s wonderful, perfection! And, if my client wanted this, I would ultimately support them and help them feel thrilled about it (after I attempted to show them other options.) In this format, I am free, as at no other time, to express my true opinion, which is interesting, as it is a subjective thing, after all.

Again, really, all that matters is that you are thrilled with it. If you are, then it will be your version of wonderful. :)

You could see if you could put the microwave where the pantry is. See if you could put a base cabinet below it, then the microwave, then a 24″ deep refrigerator cabinet above the microwave. It’s convenient to the refrigerator, then. I’d rather see that then interrupt the center cabinets.

Wow, I guess I had not realized that there were going to be almost no wall cabinets in the working area of the kitchen. There is so little storage space.

If Alison plans to grow old in this house, all of those lower cabinets should be converted to pullout drawers. They also provide much more usable storage space.

I have a friend whose very large kitchen has no upper cabinets and nothing but drawers below her countertops. She keeps dishes, glasses, everything in the drawers, which were specially designed to hold all of these items.

Just to clarify, in the image where I said to “remove this cabinet,” meaning the wall cabinet to the right of the hood, what I meant was to keep one double door cabinet, the same size as the one to the left of the window. I would envision it separate from the hood, sort of floating on the wall.

Even though one “can” fit in that many wall cabinets in any given area, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Most people use the lowest shelf most frequently, hardly ever using the upper two shelves, yet, these cabinets provide a whole lot of visual volume to the (surrounding) space. Please pay some attention to design, aesthetics, and not solely to putting in as many cabinets as is possible. It’s not meant as criticism, just advice. :)

The thing is, you need to look at the amount and proportion of narrow doors to wider doors in a plan such as this, which is heavy on doors, and if you don’t want to remove cabinetry, at least have it flow. Otherwise, it will look very choppy and confusing and busy. This part is critical.

I bought a new microwave last year and asked a group of people on a message board if there were any newer features they liked. There were several recommendations for buying a Panasonic with what the company calls Inverter Technology. It allows you to cook with a lower amount of power. The old way of decreasing the power just has the oven cycle on and off. This one actually lowers the power. Cooking and defrosting both are much improved. I think GE has this same feature on some models. I would now not buy a microwave without this.

All drawers in the base cabinets. Once you get creaky old knees, you won’t be able to get things out of a traditional base cabinet.

Still suggest pushing the kitchen against the front of the house and let the dining and great room space flow into each other. Then neither is cramped and both can grow/shrink as needed for the event occurring at the moment.

Why aren’t his drawings to scale? How do you know it works?

Take inventory of everything you will store in the kitchen and make sure it all has a home NOW during design. Special drawer pull outs for stand mixer, cookie sheets, glasses, etc. need to be determined now.

They do seem to have a lot of storage (hard to tell with no scale) in the C, it’s just in the lower cabinets/drawers.

Another vote for drawers in the lower cabinets. Stuff in the back of my non-drawer lower cabinets might as well be on Mars.

A few threads ago, kaleberg asked when I graduated. Let’s just say that recently for the first time, someone referred to me as “elderly.” This is like the first time someone called me Ma’m, instead of Miss, in a shop :-(

No, I didn’t realize the Starta building replaced building 20, but would you believe I don’t think I ever set foot in building 20? I hate to see old buildings go, however, esp. buildings with that much history. I live near Quonset now, and I feel bad every time another building from the naval air station days is torn down.

I am trying to envision a couple of high chairs (for the imaginary grandchildren) squeezed into that cramped dining space along with the grandparents, and two sets of parents and maybe a couple of siblings.

It is NOT a pretty picture. There is nowhere to expand the dining table, as there would be if the dining area was adjacent to the great room.

Pamela is so right about all drawers in the lower cabinets. That’s what my architect spec’ed in my kitchen, and I didn’t realize how great it would be until I moved in. About two minutes after I started unpacking, it all became clear. Bowls, utensils and pots are so much easier to access if they’re in drawers, rather than lost in the back of cabinets.

And Susan is so right about paying attention to the appearance of cabinets. Having just a few lines (because everything that can be lined up is lined up) gives a peaceful, coherent feeling. Just putting in different door width and heights, without regard to the total look, would be jangly and higgledy-piggledy. I didn’t realize this when we started the design process for our house, but after a while, when I saw the architects paying so much attention to lining things up, I caught on.

I agree with Pamela (#12). Move the kitchen back to the front of the house. Since the reason for all this sturm und drang was the mismatched window sizes on the first floor, simply size both windows to end at cabinet height. The porch railing will block the view of longer/taller windows, so it shouldn’t make too much different to the overall look of the home from the street.

With the shorter windows, you could come up with a more workable kitchen layout and overall more gracious floor plan.

I’m sorry to say this whole space looks just awful to me. The dining room looks like something you’d get in a cheap, mass-produced house. It makes me feel very claustrophobic. There is only one way in & out of the dining room; people will have to sidle past the chairs and past each other to get to the far end of the table, and will feel trapped once there. I guess it’s possible that people might stay there and talk after they’re done eating, because it’s just too much trouble to get up, but I suspect they will get up to get something, or use the bathroom, and never come back to that space. It has no feeling of coziness to it whatsoever, to my eyes.

And the kitchen doesn’t do a thing for me, either. Three lazy susans seem like a strange use of space – how about angled cabinets with pull-out shelves in one or two of them, instead? Again, the C-shape feels very claustrophobic to me, and inconvenient. I would slide the counter over and turn it into an island, with room to enter and exit on each side.

Although your original design didn’t have much room for the dining table, either, at least it was open on all sides. To me, it makes more sense to have the dining room between the kitchen and the living or family room – that seems like a much more natural progression.

Oh well – obviously your tastes are very different from mine! For anyone else frustrated with this blog, I recommend the Star Tribune blog, From the Ground Up. The family has obviously considered every aspect of their home, and carefully planned to suit their needs, tastes, and values. And it’s really fun to read about their visits to their house as it’s being constructed.

I would add a vote for drawers (or a like mechanism) in lower cabinets for ease of use and cleaning. I have an extremely dated kitchen with some priceless features. My lower cabinets are housed behind traditional doors, but all of the shelves pull out like pantry shelves. Additionally, they are all adjustable so I can change configurations easily and as often as my habits change without impacting the look of the room.

Another vote for drawers on the low cabinets. I have specified drawers under both the oven and the cooktop, plus a few in the island. The rest of the cabinets will have pull-out shelves, which are as accessible as drawers, but allow us to store different kinds of things that are easier to access on a shelf.

I know Robyn likes her European cabinets, but the frames let me do the pull out shelves, so I’m happy with mine.

P & A, While I certainly think going back to Plan A would be best, I do have an experience to share with you. I am just back from a dinner party at a place with a 9.5 feet wide dining s with the kitchen along one side of the dining room – no wall just a counter betwwen kitchen and dining room. It was a thoroughly pleasant space but only because there was space to exit the table at top and bottom. If you look at Susan Serra’s original drawings that is exactly what she drew. You would lose some cupboard space doing this but the overall effect would be well worth it. If you have a generous table width and bigger type chairs there is no way 9.5 feet will do without two exit points – one at each end of the table. For what it is worth, Yours sincerely

One idea–I really liked Susan’s idea of having a bench with deep cushions on two sides of the table, i.e. along the sides of the table facing the external walls. You could make these built-in with cupboards under them for the things you only get out once a year, like Christmas decorations. It still seems croweded but it would at least seem homey.

Oops, In message 20 I meant to point out that there is a huge difference between a narrow dining area and a narrow dining room. If the only thing between the kitchen and the dining area is the counter, once seated, the feeling is airy and nice. Getting to your spot at the table is a bit awkward. Forget about using the kitchen counter as a buffet accessed from the dining area. There is not enough space to walk behind the chairs unless the table is narrow.

Alison seems quite set on the layout for reasons that I do not grasp. In any case, the dining area can work. What I still hate is the fridge placement. I like my work triangle tighter.

I’m going to kick it up a notch. Again, I’m assuming you will not be moving the kitchen.

You (A&P) already know that the dining area is small. The family and the kitchen are the major players, the dining area, equally important, is a minor player…in the plan, such as it is.

Consider built-in seating. Please. Chairs need a lot more room. You have to sacrifice somewhere. If you’re resisting sacrificing cabinetry, then do away with the chairs and put a built-in on that wall. Here’s an idea for the math, and it can be adjusted:

114″ (9’6″) from wall to countertop
-27″ (wow, nice, big, deep built-in, so much room to put pillows at the back, stretch out, etc.)
-36″ (really, a 39″ table, but the table will be situated over the banquette a few inches, so let’s go with 36″ number.)
= 51″ from table to countertop

Even better. And, as Eva noted, in many cases, when the kids come down to Fla in small numbers, you won’t need a chair at either end, allowing good quality room for people to get off the bench at either end.

The built-in – storage/drawers below, and big, huge, cushy cushions, 4-5″ thick (did I say that already?) ;) In this scenario, the built-ins would have to be around 14″ tall, so there is ample space for the cushions above, and then to sink down somewhat, not too much, not too little, to end at around 17″ or there about.

It took me quite awhile to convince another client of this option due to space. I gave up, revisted it, and just showed a drawing to him the other day. He’s very excited and understands that it’s more than a seating spot for dining. It’s a “quality of life” in this situation, able to handle multiple lifestyle activities, relaxing being a big #1 on the list.

OK, one more thing, visualize the following:

1. been at the beach, now, a good type of tired, hanging out/chatting, with feet propped up on the built-in, and A is cooking up a storm.

2. someone’s working/playing at the laptop/chatting…whether feet up, or not, there are options for sitting/reclining

3. two people are sitting, feet up, at opposite ends of the built-in, reading, chatting, whatever

4. totally flexible seating for multiple small kids (expands the possibilities for seating rather than multiple chairs) or any combination of kid/adult, expanding or compressing the seating.

5. again, it’s conducive to lingering, this relaxing type of seating

6. move the table all the way against the bench to create a buffet…much nicer looking with bench seating

One more thing…sure, it’s easy to say, well, that’s what we have the family room for, to hang out, no one’s going to go there to hang out.

I respectfully submit to you, that it’s a VERY good thing to have a flexible floor plan where you can, with multiple areas for multiple types of activities, which will reduce boredom, thus, mixing things up a bit, producing more options for “living” in the space. Flexibility is a great concept to consider when designing one’s home.

To have an equally comfortable (key word) spot in this section is a bonus, and also allows for SEVERAL types of activities to go on in this main floor without people being on top of one another. Flexibility is where it’s at.

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They've found an idyllic tiny town in Florida, they've bought a piece of land and now Paul B. Brown and Alison Davis are setting out to build their dream house. How hard can it be, they wonder, even though they live 1,500 miles away, they've never built a home before and they don't know anything about architects, builders, local zoning laws or financing? On this blog for Great Homes, they recount their successes and failures and will chronicle their adventures to come.