back then, you know, they had moved uh, blacks out of Depot Town, because of therailroad tracks there, and they told us put themselves on the hill there, andthey used to call it Hungry Hill. And in fact when my father was going to get apermit to build the house, he took the, uh, blueprints down to City Hall, andthey told him they didn’t care what blacks put on the hill. Build the chimneyout the window if you wanted to. And, uh, this is, uh, similar attitude to backthen, that was.

T. INGRAM: Could you tell me something about your, uh, family history and when,

when did your father, or his father’s father, first come to Ypsilanti, andbring us on up to the present, in terms of a historical type sequence.

certificates of my father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, which I couldonly get a, a death certificate for my great-grandfather, because he wasn’tborn here. He came from Missouri. Now that was my, my father’s father’s father.

3:00father’s father’s father came from Louisiana, now this is where the Mashatt,a lot of people say the Mashatt French-Canadian, but the French comes in fromLouisiana. Uh, it goes back to Louisiana, and, uh, some of my, my aunts told meand, and, different one, they said the Mashatts were never slaves. They were,they come here when Louisiana was French. Come but, when, uh, when mygrandfather got in, uh, Missouri, uh, not my grandfather, my great-, great-,great-grandfather, when the Civil War broke out, he was considered slave, so heran all the way to Canada. Now, he went to Canada and went up in New York, andmarried a white woman.4:00

T. INGRAM: What year do you, do you, do you think?

KEN MASHATT: Oh, this was in the 1700s.

T. INGRAM: 1700s?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah, this, this had to be in the 1700s.

HELEN PALMER: Or the 1600s, great-great-grandfather.

KEN MASHATT: Because it had to be early in the 1700s, because, uh, you know,

back then, I, when I asked about my grand-, my great-, great-grandmother was a,a white woman from New York. And, uh, I said, that only her first name,Charlotte, was on the, uh, certificate, and I asked the lady at the, uh, AnnArbor, I said, “How come you don’t have my great- great- grandmother’slast name on there?” Say, well, back then, if a, a, if a black married awhite, whites would disown ’em, and so they would only put the first name, soyou can’t trace the, her family back.

T. INGRAM: Yeah.

KEN MASHATT: And I said, well, so that’s how they knew that she was white,

5:00because there was no last name given, you know, on the, on the certificate. Nowthis is, this is what she told to me there at the register’s office in AnnArbor, when I went to get these certificates.

born in 1894, and he was the oldest son of Horace Mashatt, which is my6:00grandfather. Now, it—he was bor—my father was born in Ypsilanti and hisfather was born in Ypsilanti. And I imagine there would be approximately 30years’ difference in ages, so he probably, uh, come around mid-1800s.

KEN MASHATT: Well, eight right now, we lost our sister some years back.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: Now, if you want to know, like, I think, uh, I think this needs to

go down in history, as far as Ypsilanti, uh, back in 1971, the uh, first blackAmerican, uh, first black Afro-American festival was given in Ypsilanti which I10:00was the founder of.

T. INGRAM: What I would like to do uh, is, could you provide for me in

discussion, uh, your, uh, view of Ypsilanti as a child, what was black life likeas a child in Ypsilanti, growing up?

KEN MASHATT: Okay.

T. INGRAM: Then I’d like to get your perspective too, Mrs. Palmer. Okay?

so, state your name again, and, and,

KEN MASHATT: All right. Uh, I’m Ken Mashatt, and life for me as a child in

Ypsilanti was, uh, in my early life was I think my most favorite life becauseHarriet Street School uh, was where I attended, and, uh, Mr. Beatty was theprincipal there. And we had a very, uh, uh, good atmosphere of learning at thesame time uh, Ypsilanti as a whole was more racist and prejudiced. Now, Ididn’t understand it as a child, but we lived on dusty roads, we, I was in11:00Ypsi before they got pavement and streetlights, and horses and chickens and cowsand pigs used to run up and down the street, uh, it was a regular country life.

T. INGRAM: What kinds of black leaders were there then, back during that time?

KEN MASHATT: [Laughs]

HELEN PALMER: Don’t tell him, don’t tell him.

KEN MASHATT: I’m not. Um, the black leadership at that time, now, I, I, like

I said, I’m, I’m speaking of when I was eight and five and six

T. INGRAM: I’m talking about life as

KEN MASHATT: Okay, as I graduated up

T. INGRAM: right up

KEN MASHATT: Okay, as I come up, I, uh, I, I, found uh, racism in the school

system because I was told, I was told, uh, right there in Ypsilanti High Schoolthat I could not be an architect, because there was no black architects in thiscountry. And this is when I was coming up. Uh, so there was certain things that12:00they advised black youth certain subjects that the fields weren’t open to’em, opportunities to go into that field at that time wasn’t open to them.Uh, the black leadership then was in my estimation somewhat poor, however, nowlet me, let me straighten that out, however, we, the, the type of, of, black inYpsilanti was, the get along, don’t rock the boat type.

T. INGRAM: Name, name some names, of ministers, preachers, uh,

KEN MASHATT: I can name a few names, uh, uh, Dr. Amos Washington, uh, Dr.

Perry, Dr. Perry was the first black to ever serve as a Board of Educationmember. Uh, Amos Washington, uh, served as first black Housing Commissioner. Uh,13:00we’ve had black leaders throughout uh, Ypsilanti’s the first to have a blackmayor, John Burton, uh, the, the leadership, uh, then, as, as I was coming up,was, like I said, get along. Now, we had some profound leaders, we had anotherman that used to live there in Ypsi who started the uh, black, uh, communistchapter, uh, Herbert Walker. ’Course, they called him a Communist; I don’tknow. Uh, but Ypsilanti is, is—did you know that Ypsilanti is the last pointgoing north on the Underground Railroad?

T. INGRAM: Tell me a little more about the Walker,

KEN MASHATT: Herb Walker?

T. INGRAM: Yeah, in terms of your, your, your feeling that he was a very

KEN MASHATT: Uh, but Herb lives in, in New York now, and he’s, uh, he’s an

15:00engineer, on, on a, well, I don’t know if you want to call it engineer, on theocean liners, he’s, he’s a seaman. And he lives, he lives in, um, he staysin New York when the ship is here but he lives in the islands, he lives down inthe islands now. But he, I think was a, to me, a dynamic leader, I don’t thinkthat black leadership was uh, uh, uh, ready for him at that time, but, uh, hewanted to organize blacks even way back then. But, getting back to my day, youknow, it was a shame that we had people in a leadership position, and I doremember that, that, a lot of times, we wouldn’t have swings andteeter-totters because the, uh, principal uh, would, uh, turn the money back into show how good a manager he was, you know, we had to do without. Now, I’m16:00not telling you hearsay, I’m telling you from what I experienced.

T. INGRAM: Yeah, okay.

KEN MASHATT: Okay?

T. INGRAM: Um, what would you—would you say or would you agree that in

Ypsilanti, in comparison with other places in this area was more liberal in itsfeeling and treatment towards blacks, or, or more conservative, [ ] compare

KEN MASHATT: I, I, I think, no, I think that uh, it-it’s not more liberal, I

think it’s, uh, more, more, now how do you say, uh, covered up, not soextrovert as, uh, introvert. You know, they had a way of covering—ah, andthen, too, I think it-it’s the way uh, you carry yourself. I guess I was bornwith a lot of pride but I, I remember uh, one time, uh, my mother, after myfather died, policeman came to the house, you know, my mother she would open thedoor and feed anybody and let anybody stay there, ’cause, if they was17:00homeless, or in need,

become a widow when she married [Richard Lever] who is my stepfather. Uh, but Iremember this young man was down and out, and she let him come there and stay,and he was a criminal, course she didn’t know that, didn’t nobody else knowthat, and the law came in looking, and, uh, policeman stepped in the house,state policeman, too, and she said, “Will you remove your hat in my house?”He said, “Well, I don’t have to remove my hat, this is part of myuniform.” And I remember that lady taking that broomstick and knocking his hatclean across the living room, and she said, “As long as you live you take yourhat off in my house, or you talk to me on my porch.” And uh, we, we never gotmessed with, when I say messed with, the worst thing I remember and experiencedin my life was when I first found out I was black,18:00

T. INGRAM: And when did you find that out and what impact did it have on you?

KEN MASHATT: Well, I was 19 years old, had just joined the United States Army,

and uh, uh, joined the draft, now they was drafting then, so they drafted us, meand my neighbor went. Well, I come home on leave, on my way back I stopped inuh, Memphis, Tennessee, 2 o’clock in the morning, okay, nothing was open but awhite grill and I was hungry, I was sure enough hungry, and so I

HELEN PALMER: [ ] eat your toes, [ ] hungry

KEN MASHATT: I went to this grill and I said, “Listen, lady,” big old uh,

redhead lady, white lady, I went in, I said, “Can I get a sandwich?” Shesaid, “No, you can’t get a sandwich,” she said, “Get your black ass out19:00of here.” I said, “What’s so wrong?” She said, “Well, we don’t serveniggers here.” Well, that didn’t bother me too much, I said, “Well, look,all I want is something to eat. If you give me a sandwich, I’ll leave.” Soshe called the manager. He come out there and he said, “We don’t serveblacks here, you got to go.” And I said, “well, I’m in a United Statesarmy uniform.” He said, “We going to give you a sandwich, but you have to gooutdoors to eat it.” I’d never been treated like that before.

T. INGRAM: So life for you in Ypsilanti was, uh, was like, uh, you really

wasn’t aware of, uh, of the color?

KEN MASHATT: Right. There, there, there was no color awareness, there, not at

that time. Uh, you, you, at the same time, you knew, uh, you knew you were20:00different, but you don’t know that you were more or less oppressed, until, uh,like I said, when, when things began to happen, then you realize it, you know.But, you see, this is one thing that, that blacks in Ypsilanti and I don’tunderstand all of it, we have a, a, a, a, when I say we ’cause I includemyself, we have a, a poor conception on what we should accept, y’know, when Isay what, when I say what we should accept, what we should accept from societyas being, hey, this is just a part of life and this is the way it is, it’s21:00this man’s world and we just live in it,

T. INGRAM: So you really had no, no, uh, racial conception, uh, race

conception, of, of you being black, versus, you just being treated a certain waybecause you were colored

KEN MASHATT: Right. You see.

T. INGRAM: Okay. Uh, while growing up, what were some of the what were

some of the various kinds of black businesses that you remember?

KEN MASHATT: Oh, I always said that Ypsilanti is going out of the world

ass-backwards, it’s on tape now, so, because when I was coming up, we had ourown drugstore, we had a soda bar, we had a restaurant, we had two restaurants,right there on Harriet Street, Amos Washington had a grocery store, we had abarb—we had barber shops, we had a fish market, we had a pool room, rightthere, right there on Harriet Street.22:00

T. INGRAM: What were some of the names of the various owners of these

businesses? Could you mention some of their names? Like Amos Washington

KEN MASHATT: Well, Amos, uh,

HELEN PALMER: Washington.

KEN MASHATT: Dickie, uh, uh, I don’t know, what’s Dickie’s last name?

HELEN PALMER: Atkins.

KEN MASHATT: Atkins. uh, a pool room

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: And then there was the Bennetts

HELEN PALMER: People don’t know of the Bennetts

KEN MASHATT: [Lorris] Bennett owned the, the pool room

HELEN PALMER: and they had grocery stuff.

KEN MASHATT: there on Monroe and um, and uh, Hamilton, uh, there was a,

HELEN PALMER: There was a restaurant, uh,

KEN MASHATT: Can’t think of who.

HELEN PALMER: Miss Bennett owned the restaurant on Harriet

KEN MASHATT: But I remember when Morgan built the place down there, Lanore

Morgan, uh,

HELEN PALMER: Yeah.

KEN MASHATT: And Glover’s fish market, Glover had a fish market down there

T. INGRAM: What do, what do you see as some of the reasons for many of

these businesses either folding or closing down?

HELEN PALMER: Well, most of them died.

KEN MASHATT: Well, a lot of, a lot of them died, but a lot of them had, there

was no one to take up, take up the action, take up the slack,

T. INGRAM: Take them over, yeah.

KEN MASHATT: and, and then, too, you know, uh, there’s, there’s just,

there’s not that get up and drive in Ypsilanti. Uh, blacks, I always say,blacks are most passive, blacks in Ypsilanti, they’re, they’re more passivethan anybody I know, you’ve got to kill somebody to get a riot started,somebody has to die, or somebody has to burn down something before you can getthe attention of the masses, blacks, to see what is going on, and that’s avery poor way, you know, uh, this is exactly why what happened to the, uh, youth25:00on the move, and uh the, the Black Cultural Festival, now they, they have aHeritage Festival now, and claiming it’s the first, it’s not the first,first festival was given right there in our Parkridge Park

T. INGRAM: What year?

KEN MASHATT: ’71.

T. INGRAM: 1971. In the area of politics, were there many blacks in the

ah, not, well, he’s a realtor more than a politician, uh, but he dealt inpolitics, uh, John Burton, you know, uh, Mrs. Dorsey, and she stands out inpolitics, she’s a real politician more or less, and there’s a lady that hasmore education in one finger than the whole city council got in the last tenyears. Um,

KEN MASHATT: Very—I, I, I think it was, I think it was minimal, the reason

why it was minimal because they didn’t take it to the street, and this is myargument, this, this has been my argument in Ypsilanti, taking it to the people,I remember when we got paved streets, sidewalks and streetlights, there Mrs.Dorsey, and uh, John Burton, Amos Washington and my mother, all of them had wentand petitioned, they had to petition the people in the area to have the citythat put streetlights and sidewalks. Now them four people who were uh, majorleaders as far as getting pavement and streetlights on the South Side of Ypsi,man. All it was was trails. But, uh, what I’m saying is, the, the people thatwere in politics, they, there’s always been I guess in every black community,27:00poor communication, and this is what has hurt the black politician in Ypsi, thisis why, I, I think the, the people are so passive, because when you get somebodyin a position, then you lose contact, and poor communicate, that’s like DoctorClark, he was one of the most outstanding doctors in the area.

T. INGRAM: What was his first name?

HELEN PALMER: Leo Clark, [today]?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

HELEN PALMER: Leo Clark, doctor.

T. INGRAM: He was one of the first black doctors in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: Yes, he was, yes, he was, and one of the best. Not only a black

doctor, he was one of the best doctors.

HELEN PALMER: Period.

KEN MASHATT: Uh, Dr. Bass was a good doctor, and is, uh, he, he worked on us on

many a day,

T. INGRAM: I want to take you back a little bit, uh, could you share with

28:00me any, any discussions or impressions that your, your father, or your, yourfather’s grandfather may have told your father, or what your father may havetold you, about how life was in Ypsilanti when you first came, you know, forblack folk, you know, what was life like for them? You know, uh, yeah, did, didany of them ever, any of the old comments or anything, that filtered down, youknow, in terms of what your father

HELEN PALMER: Well, back in them days, the black man stuck together a little,

because different homes that were built in Ypsilanti, they build them, you know,they had a lot of, uh, masons, in Ypsilanti. Brick masons, and the masons was anorganization, but them guys was together, you was going to build a house,they’d help.

T. INGRAM: Well, the Masons tended to stick together and build homes here,

you mean, for blacks? What would you say?

HELEN PALMER: Yeah…

KEN MASHATT: Well, not only Masons.

HALEN PALMER: Not Masons.

KEN MASHATT: I’ve never been a Mason, but I’ve built at least eleven homes,

or helped build eleven, about eleven or twelve homes, right there on Jefferson.

T. INGRAM: Oh, okay.

KEN MASHATT: Because uh, we, uh, it used to be a time in, uh, in Ypsilanti

where uh, when I was coming up now see my father died when I was three years oldso I don’t know much about, you know, him, uh,

HELEN PALMER: But more or less if a man’s going to do something in Ypsilanti,

the neighbors and everybody would pitch in and help, moreso than they do today.

KEN MASHATT: Oh, they don’t do that today. I’d come home from school and my

mother would have a little something saying, “You go down and help BrotherLordis, and, uh, don’t you get in his way, if he wants you to carry lumber,you carry lumber, if he wants you to mix mortar, you mix mortar, you do whatever30:00he tells you to do.”

HELEN PALMER: My uncle was a licensed carpenter way back then.

T. INGRAM: Who was?

HELEN PALMER: My uncle.

T. INGRAM: Was a carpenter?

HELEN PALMER: Mm-hmm.

T. INGRAM: Here in Ypsilanti?

HELEN PALMER: Mm-hmm.

T. INGRAM: What was his name?

HELEN PALMER: Kersey, Arden.

T. INGRAM: Arden Kersey.

HELEN PALMER: Mm-hmm.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

HELEN PALMER: He built a lot of houses over there. I don’t know too many that

he built on, at this end. Well, most of the, when we moved, when we come outhere, Ken?

KEN MASHATT: I know we came here right after I was, right before I was born,

HELEN PALMER: All right. That’s when we came here. We moved on Jefferson.

T. INGRAM: What year was that?

KEN MASHATT: That was around had to be around ’28 or ’30.

HELEN PALMER: Because there was one, two,

KEN MASHATT: See, I was born in ’39.

HELEN PALMER: on Jefferson, at that end of Jefferson,

KEN MASHATT: Must have been around ’35.

HELEN PALMER: there wasn’t but two black families, in that block, when we

Mashatt, then Carolyn Ann Mashatt, and then Lilian Betty Mashatt, I’m going toput that Betty in, cause everybody call—we always called her Betty, when shedied her name was Lilian, and half the people didn’t know who she was.’Cause we always called her Betty. And then Shirley Mashatt Gray, now, and,what come after Shirley?

HELEN PALMER: Oh, I didn’t put my Palmer on my name, I’ve been a Palmer for

thirty years.

T. INGRAM: If, if we were to look at the, uh, the present today, how do

you view black life in Ypsilanti today, in terms of uh, race relations, in termsof education, in terms of the leadership. Do you see any significant advances onthe part of black leadership in Ypsilanti today as compared to yesterday in thepast? And if, and if so, and if not, why not? You know, share that with us.

KEN MASHATT: Well, that’s um, see, now that’s, see, I think that’s,

that’s a touchy, because, uh, I, first of all, I, I used to get in, uh, I usedto deal in politics a bit and I used to get in the city manag—I mean, uh,county, uh, I was a county youth director from uh, ’71 to ’74, and uh, I36:00dealt in a lot of uh, educational problems, and a lot of uh, different kind ofproblems, and I’ve just refrained from uh, from dealing with those problems.I, I retired more or less and went into private life, I, I, I don’t want todeal with the, with the city. For one thing, I find that, uh, the leadership,

HELEN PALMER: No one stick together.

KEN MASHATT: It’s very, it’s, to me, the leadership in Ypsilanti is the

most—very passive leadership, like I said, uh, we have a lot of people who arepassive, who don’t believe in rocking the boat, uh, who don’t believe in uh,I guess I’ve been more or less a militant, among whatever you want to call us,but, this is the way I see it, uh, as far as changes, I think there’s a lotmore opportunities for blacks, as far, and now, I’m not talking about37:00city-wide, I’m talking about national-wide, okay, because city-wide I don’tthink we have that many opportunities. Uh, you have factories, uh, I’m almostpositive, you have factories in Ypsilanti that you still don’t have blacks in.They’re small shops. But you have quite a few small shops in Ypsilanti thatare still lily-white. Uh, I, I, I, and that’s, you know, I think that, uh, ifblacks are going to live and support the economic system in Ypsilanti then theyshould share in, uh, some of the economic profits as those small-shop factoriesthat have maybe, uh, twenty or twenty-five men working in them at least five,there should be five blacks somewhere in there. Uh, no, I, I don’t see a, agreat change in the uh, as far as the, uh, labor, uh, structure. Educational38:00structure, uh, yes we have a black uh, uh, mayor, and we have a black uh,education uh, council, we have a black principal in our Ypsi High School, butwhat I’m saying is, I guess, uh, we just need a lesson in what blackness is.Uh, because if you, if, I don’t care if, if, if you’re the black uh,prin-principal but if you, if you can’t understand the needs of blacks, thenyou being a black principal don’t mean a hill of beans.

T. INGRAM: Well, how, what do you see the role of black ministers today in

Ypsilanti in terms of what they, what they’ve been doing versus what they didin the past?

KEN MASHATT: Well, in the past, I think black ministers played an important

39:00part in Ypsilanti as far as uni-unity. Uh, I remember, uh, there used to be acommunity chorus made up of Baptist, Methodist, and Holiness churches, and, uh,every fifth Sunday they would go to different churches, so, every Sunday out ofthe month. One Sunday out of the month we would have a community sing, acommunity chorus, it was led by, uh, Olive, uh, Evans, who was an outstandinguh, school teacher and a music director, she was the first black to, uh, to be amusic director over the whole city of Ypsilanti. She uh, organized the communitychorus, made up of different churches, and the black ministers came together atthese musicals, and boy, we used to have a time. [Have] a now, the attitude, Ithink, the atmosphere among black ministers is uh, get it all for yourself.40:00

HELEN PALMER: This is my church, this is my church, you stay in yours.

T. INGRAM: Why do you think that’s so, among the black ministers in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: Well, we’ve become materialists, we’ve become very conscious

of finance, we’ve become uh, conscious of status, uh, how many I can get in mychurch, how much prestige will I have among so many people?

HELEN PALMER: And I drive a Cadillac and you don’t.

KEN MASHATT: I think that’s uh, that’s the role that the, that the,

they’re playing. Uh, I, I think for years uh, they’ve asked the blackministers to come together in a, at the community sing uh, right there at theback festivals and never no cooperation from any of the pastors or ministers.And, uh, I don’t think it’s because of poor organization, I think it’sbecause there’s something there that has separated uh, minister from minister.41:00And, and then to the, the, then to, uh, it’s, it’s not a false uh,at—it’s not a false atmosphere, because there, there has been a lot ofconflict between uh, some of the Baptist churches, there, and, uh, there,there’s been conflict, and I think now that the ministry is, uh, is divided inits, uh, divided in its efforts as far as congregation-wide.

T. INGRAM: As a youth, uh, how, how do you, how do you envision in terms

of were the needs of youth adequately provided for when you were young versus,uh, how do you see the needs of youth being provided today in Ypsilanti, arethey any different or are they better or are they less?

HELEN PALMER: They’re less.

T. INGRAM: What were the kinds of activities and needs? Go ahead, Mrs. Palmer.

HELEN PALMER: Because I think, uh, when I was young, the, if there was a need,

the people and the churches got together. Now, the people and the church don’tget together. Heck, some of the churches don’t even have missionaries anymore.And, and, you know, do things for, for the needy. Uh, a lot of ministers, and Iguess some of them do, they went beyond their church members, they’d come toyour house. You know, if you wasn’t a member, or you didn’t go to church,they’d come visit you. But now, there’s a lot, lot of the ministers, theydon’t visit, only their own flock. Well, if I got it, why, you know, if, if,and, and, way I see it, if I’m already saved and in the church, then, uh, yougo find somebody else to save. That’s the way I feel about it. But they43:00don’t, um, they don’t come to, my opinion, they don’t come to thepeople’s rescue. Like if a lady, there was a time if, if someone died in thefamily all the churches’ ministers would come, they would do what they could,and nowadays, if you don’t belong to the church, uh, understand you even haveto be paid to be buried from a church, to have a thing in the church.

T. INGRAM: How do you per—how, how do you perceive, uh, what did the

churches do for youth back then, you know, when you were young, in terms oftaking care of needs,

HELEN PALMER: But they had a lot of things, well,

T. INGRAM: versus today.

HELEN PALMER: Well, black church had a, they’d take us places, you know, the

church would have church picnics,

KEN MASHATT: Mm. Them was the best parts.

HELEN PALMER: And the churches would get together, sometimes we wouldn’t go

no further than Recreation Park, but there’d be, all, you know, all the churches,44:00

KEN MASHATT: Unity.

HELEN PALMER: We’d get together and have, hey, we’re gonna have church

picnic, well, all the churches would have a picnic, and it would be very wellsupervised, or, ’course, people back in my days, everybody didn’t have carsand buses and stuff like that so, they were limited as far as going differentplaces, but they had get-togethers. One, one park would go over and sing at thischurch, and they don’t do that much anymore. They, I belonged, although thatwasn’t a church organization, that I used to sing with the a cappella choirand that was ev—all the young people from every church. We had a baseballteam, we won state and city championship in Ypsilanti. And, um, what else, wedid a lot of things, uh, we, we had a bike shop, when it was closed, now thesewere the older teenagers, like eighteen, nineteen years old, we all rode bikes45:00and our parents would let us go bike riding, and it would be very well supervised.

T. INGRAM: What kinds of uh, solutions or alternatives do you see, or, or,

or, or think about suggesting that might enhance the com—community life amongblacks in Ypsilanti, in the area of branch, churches, ministerial leadership,education or whatever, you know, what are some of these ideas?

HELEN PALMER: I think people in Ypsilanti have got afraid of each other. Now I

know that sounds a little ridiculous. But when I was a kid, there wasn’tanywhere we couldn’t go at night, when I was a young woman, we could goanywhere, we could walk from Jefferson to anywhere we wanted to go. Through thefield, nobody never bothered us. Now I’m older, I wouldn’t do it now, butnot so many young people, they won’t do it now either.

46:00it’s not only a city-wide thing, it’s a national, uh, it’s a, it’s anational breakdown of, of standards and, and morals, and I often say, that Ihope to God that we never get uh, uh, like the affluent society. There was atime um, that, that blacks had standards that they kept, regardless, you know,of what the, the affluent society said was all right, the blacks had standards.There was a time, when, uh, at Perry School, uh, uh, uh, Harriet School, ateacher had to be a church member.

T. INGRAM: Really?

KEN MASHATT: You see? Oh, yes. Man, teachers were just like preachers.

KEN MASHATT: This was back when I was going there, this was back in the ’40s.

HELEN PALMER: Perry School was white, partially white when I went.

KEN MASHATT: And, uh, I remember, man, we, uh, we had to say, uh, Pledge of

Allegiance to the flag, and the Lord’s Prayer, and we had Scripture reading.And, and, and, and it is no more. There was a time when we um, when we respectedolder people, not, not for well, maybe what they were or who they were but justbecause they were older they were Mrs., or Ms., or Mr. And it’s a breakdown,it’s just a breakdown, that’s all it is, it’s a breakdown, and we’vebecome, uh, we’ve become uh, skeptical,

T. INGRAM: What do you think, what do you, what do you, what do you think

we need to do in order to enhance community life among black folk, whatsuggestions could y—if you were to offer some suggestions for improvement,48:00

KEN MASHATT: If I was to offer suggestions for improvement, I would start with

the church, I would start with the pastor,

HELEN PALMER: start with the

KEN MASHATT: I would start with the deacon more, and then I would carry it to

the street, see.

T. INGRAM: What about the area of race relations, you know,

KEN MASHATT: As, as far as race relations, I feel that, uh, love begins in the

house and then it goes outdoors. I cannot say that I’m going to love that manacross town when I can’t love you. We have to learn to love each other. Whenblacks learn to love blacks, then we were about loving that white man.

HELEN PALMER: I think black people have gotten more skeptical each other than

they do the white man.

KEN MASHATT: See, love begins here, and then it goes over there. But if we

can’t do it here, ain’t no sense in us talking about over there. Racerelations have to begin in the black community, and there has to be a love for49:00the community and for your fellow man before you can go across town talkingabout love.

T. INGRAM: What do you see as some of the some of the changes that might

be needed to get more blacks involved in local politics in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: Well, for one thing, and, and I think this is a, that’s true,

okay, one thing that we need to learn and I would to God that they could have amass meeting, I, I think they could get people out, is to, is for the, the eliteblacks, you have them here in Ypsi,

HELEN PALMER: But they separate themselves.

KEN MASHATT: quit trying to talk above the head of the everyday factory rat.

I’m a factory rat, okay? Don’t talk about it because I can deal with it. Butdon’t, you know, they, they have that look down their nose attitude, blackswho get their position get that look down their nose attitude,50:00

going to do this for the good of everybody, me you, everybody else, all of usgoing to get a piece of the pie, you know, we are going to have to come downlevel, as, as the old folks used to say, deathbed level honesty and say thatthis is what we need, and this is what we need from you, it can be done, yousee, it can be done

HELEN PALMER: But the elites, so-called, the elite blacks of Ypsilanti, as soon

as they get elite, and get that piece of money, they move out.

T. INGRAM: Where do they move to?

HELEN PALMER: Into the white neighborhoods. All of them. There was a time the

schoolteachers lived down the street, and around the corner, and three or fourstreets over, now they, they live in white neighborhoods, [stubborn] andthey’re secluded.

KEN MASHATT: Well, they can move to where they want,

HELEN PALMER: Yes, but they, I’m like, [brother], now they can bring up their

51:00own neighborhoods, they build all these gorgeous houses over in the whitefolks’ neighborhood, build it in their own, just laying over there.

KEN MASHATT: Well,

HELEN PALMER: Course, my mother built this, so,

KEN MASHATT: And it’s secluded,

HELEN PALMER: Well, she wanted to be Miss out-in-the-country

T. INGRAM: Your mother built this house?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

HELEN PALMER: Uh-huh. This where my mother lived.

KEN MASHATT: See, she lived here, then she lived in my house before this. But, uh,

HELEN PALMER: Some of her friends tried to get her to build…

KEN MASHATT: No, I think until the, un—until black people can be made aware

that they’re not going to be embarrassed because they don’t understandterminologies in policy-making, but at the same time, they can have an interestand an input and not be looked down on and saying, well, you don’t understand52:00the situation, well, then if they don’t understand, explain it to them, putit, and put it in words and terms that they can understand, you see what I mean?I, I think there, there’s, there’s a street language that we have to learn,that, that, that blacks have to learn, or come back to, to convey, to communicate.

were the names of important individuals that, that may have influenced yourthinking, or, or helped you, you know, uh, grow and learn, were there anysignificant individuals in your life, as you were coming up, that had a realimpact on your life, like you mentioned James Beatty,

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

T. INGRAM: is one, were there any others, that really had a real impact,

in a positive way?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah, there was a man, I don’t know if he’s living now, but

there was a 6th-grade teacher I had, and he had to me, Dubois Patton,53:00

T. INGRAM: Black?

KEN MASHATT: He’s black.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: And he was a 6th grade teacher, uh, he, he had a great impact on

me. And I think, that, that, that, I don’t know I, I was a devil. You know, I,I was something in the sixth grade. Uh, but this man took time, you know, thisman took time, and, uh, kept us after school, there was about three or four ofus boys, and we always was getting into something, and, but he always had timeto keep us after school, sit down and talk to us, and even go to blows with us,you know, I mean, go to blows, you know, he said okay, and there was four of usone day, and uh, he said, okay, he said, you think I don’t care, he said, youthink that, uh, I’m doing this for me, well, I don’t care what you think, he54:00said, but you fellows are going to be something. And you know, out of the fourof us, really, I think we turned out pretty good. Ain’t none of us been tojail, we got one wh—one is a foreman out at Ford’s, one is a UAW rep, andme, I, before I uh, retired from the ministry, I was a pastor, I pastored fortwelve years. Uh,

T. INGRAM: Are you a minister?

KEN MASHATT: No, not now,

T. INGRAM: Oh, okay.

KEN MASHATT: I, I used to be.

T. INGRAM: At one time you were a minister

KEN MASHATT: Yes, I was a pastor.

T. INGRAM: Where, in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: No, no, never pastored in Ypsi, I pastored in Jackson, Inkster,

and Detroit.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: But, uh, not in Ypsi. Uh, but Dubois Patton, I think he had a big

HELEN PALMER: Her name was Campbell, when you, when I went to school. Miss

Campbell. She used to come to visit, and sit down and talk, and she’d tell youwhat your child needed to study, and what they didn’t, Miss Kersey would dothe same thing, I don’t know if they’re still doing it or not. I don’teven know if she’s still—

KEN MASHATT: She’s retired.

HELEN PALMER: I know she

KEN MASHATT: You know she married Wallie [Won]

HELEN PALMER: Yeah, I know she did.

KEN MASHATT: Don’t put that on tape.

T. INGRAM: [laughs]

KEN MASHAT: But anyway, that’s just old talk.

T. INGRAM: Yeah, yeah, what I’d like to do then is, I’d like to thank

you for allowing the opportunity to interview you but what I’d like to do isthis, is, is have what we discussed today, I’ll have it transcribed, typed onpaper, I’m gonna bring it back here to you all, so you can look at what hasbeen typed, so that you can add or delete, what you feel should be there, so56:00that it would more adequately reflect, okay, what you want. Okay? That’s whatI’ll do.

Partial Transcript:T. INGRAM:…a grant that was funded by the National Endowment for the Humanities to do an oral history on the contributions on the part of black citi—citizens in the development of Ypsilanti. Today we’re in the process of, of interviewing the Mashatt

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

T. INGRAM: family.

KEN MASHATT: Right.

T. INGRAM: And what is your name?

KEN MASHATT: Uh, Ken Mashatt.

Segment Synopsis: The interviewer asks Mr. Mashatt and Mrs. Palmer about the history of the Mashatt family, where the names comes from, when they arrived in Ypsilanti and their grandfather's well-digging business.

Partial Transcript:T. INGRAM: What I would like to do uh, is, could you provide for me in discussion, uh, your, uh, view of Ypsilanti as a child, what was black life like as a child in Ypsilanti, growing up?

KEN MASHATT: Okay.

T. INGRAM: Then I’d like to get your perspective too, Mrs. Palmer. Okay? so, state your name again, and, and,

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Mashatt and Mrs. Palmers are asked about growing up in Ypsilanti in the 1920s and 1930s. Mr. Mashatt talks about his first memories of race and racial prejudice.

Partial Transcript:T. INGRAM: Okay. Uh, while growing up, what were some of the what were some of the various kinds of black businesses that you remember?

KEN MASHATT: Oh, I always said that Ypsilanti is going out of the world ass-backwards, it’s on tape now, so, because when I was coming up, we had our own drugstore, we had a soda bar, we had a restaurant, we had two restaurants, right there on Harriet Street, Amos Washington had a grocery store, we had a barb—we had barber shops, we had a fish market, we had a pool room, right there, right there on Harriet Street.

Segment Synopsis: Mr. Mashatt and Mrs. Palmer give memories of the former Black Harriet St. business district on Ypsilanti's south side of their youth. The give recollections of bars, cafes, pool halls and barbershops among other businesses.

Partial Transcript:T. INGRAM: I want to take you back a little bit, uh, could you share with me any, any discussions or impressions that your, your father, or your, your father’s grandfather may have told your father, or what your father may have told you, about how life was in Ypsilanti when you first came, you know, for black folk, you know, what was life like for them? You know, uh, yeah, did, did any of them ever, any of the old comments or anything, that filtered down, you know, in terms of what your father

HELEN PALMER: Well, back in them days, the black man stuck together a little, because different homes that were built in Ypsilanti, they build them, you know, they had a lot of, uh, masons, in Ypsilanti. Brick masons, and the masons was an organization, but them guys was together, you was going to build a house, they’d help.

Segment Synopsis: Helen Palmer and Ken Mashatt discuss their parents generation and the social solidarity of the community they grew up in. They also discuss inter-racial marriages in Ypsilanti.

Partial Transcript:T. INGRAM: If, if we were to look at the, uh, the present today, how do you view black life in Ypsilanti today, in terms of uh, race relations, in terms of education, in terms of the leadership. Do you see any significant advances on the part of black leadership in Ypsilanti today as compared to yesterday in the past? And if, and if so, and if not, why not? You know, share that with us.

KEN MASHATT: Well, that’s um, see, now that’s, see, I think that’s, that’s a touchy, because, uh, I, first of all, I, I used to get in, uh, I used to deal in politics a bit and I used to get in the city manag—I mean, uh, county, uh, I was a county youth director from uh, ’71 to ’74, and uh, I dealt in a lot of uh, educational problems, and a lot of uh, different kind of problems, and I’ve just refrained from uh, from dealing with those problems. I, I retired more or less and went into private life, I, I, I don’t want to deal with the, with the city. For one thing, I find that, uh, the leadership,

Segment Synopsis: Kenneth Mashatt, a former pastor, gives his views on black leadership in Ypsilanti and the role of the church in leading social life. He discusses community choirs and the banding together of different congregations in his youth.

Partial Transcript:T. INGRAM: What kinds of uh, solutions or alternatives do you see, or, or, or, or think about suggesting that might enhance the com—community life among blacks in Ypsilanti, in the area of branch, churches, ministerial leadership, education or whatever, you know, what are some of these ideas?

HELEN PALMER: I think people in Ypsilanti have got afraid of each other. Now I know that sounds a little ridiculous. But when I was a kid, there wasn’t anywhere we couldn’t go at night, when I was a young woman, we could go anywhere, we could walk from Jefferson to anywhere we wanted to go. Through the field, nobody never bothered us. Now I’m older, I wouldn’t do it now, but not so many young people, they won’t do it now either.

Segment Synopsis: Helen Mashatt Palmer and Kenneth Mashatt discuss what they see as generational differences in the black community as well as social and class divisions. Kenneth laments the growth of what he sees as a growth of materialism and decrease in standards in the Black community.

Partial Transcript:T. INGRAM: Uh, what, could you give me some names of, of, uh, cert—what were the names of important individuals that, that may have influenced your thinking, or, or helped you, you know, uh, grow and learn, were there any significant individuals in your life, as you were coming up, that had a real impact on your life, like you mentioned James Beatty,

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

Segment Synopsis: Helen and Kenneth are asked to give names of influences on their lives growing up in Ypsilanti. They mention teachers and their mother, Helen Mashatt.

The interviews, transcripts, indexes, and photographs contained herein may not be reproduced or altered without the permission of the Ypsilanti District Library and the Ypsilanti Historical Society. Short excerpts may be used for the purposes of promoting the archive or the project, or in scholarly work with appropriate references.