You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.

This is an example of what I was speaking about when I spoke off offending people. I also said that we should think before we post. Does this type of post have a place here. Would many parents want their young children to be reading this post?

You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.

I believe you use all caps too much, that is my belief.

In any case, music, religion and spirituality go back a long way, tens of thousands of years, long before upstart religions like Christianity. Whether God exists or not, billions of people the world over, throughout history and today, view music as a way of expressing cosmic forces, glorifying God, attaining spiritual peace, etc. At the same time, people use music to sell deodorant and NASCAR shows.

None of this is good or bad - just simply some of the uses to which people put music. Odd-time ratamacues and cymbals felts are important topics, to be sure, but some of us here also want to respectfully discuss the intersection of music, religion and spirituality.

To paraphrase you without the caps: "It is my belief that understanding can be produced when no constraints are placed on respectful discussion."

I just welcomed a new young drummer to this site. I gave him advice on lessons and kit buying. Should I have given him religious advice also? Perhaps I should have told him that God doesn't exist.

This adds to my suspicion that your original post on this thread was somewhat antagonistic. There are rational, respectful and useful ways to discuss the intersection between music, religion and spirituality, for those who are open to those kinds of discussions and wish to go there. If they don't want to go there, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss, is there now?

I think that it is time to end this thread. The point needed to be made and Bernhard and all the posters in this thread have made the point. There is no place on Drummerworld for religious and political statements. I wish to thank Bernhard and all who contributed. I'm going to stop posting to it now and slowly let it fade away. I didn't start this thread to antagonize, as has been suggested. I started this thread because I saw statements on other threads that offended people for their beliefs. I read the rules of this forum and I realised why they were there. That was my reason.

I can entirely respect your distaste for topics like this here on DW now, Bernhard. I am guilty of starting politically-charged threads myself, in the past, and they usually end on a bad note.

I still think things like this can be discussed calmly, rationally, and respectfully but this thread wasn't started with those intentions.

I go back to the polite company comment - we're polite company here and some things just don't belong here, IMHO.

The farther we get from Western music, the more we will stumble into the religious and spiritual aspects of music. From that perspecitve, limiting discussion of religion would limit discussion of music.

For example, there are recognized genres of Christian, Klezmer, Indian, Chinese, Afro-Cuban, Indonesian, Middle Eastern music, etc, that all have strong religious underpinnings. If you had a thread about "Playing in church" or "How to best play 'Shnirele Perle'" (klezmer classic song about the Jewish longing for the messianic age) you could not help but refer to the religious context and there have been such threads around here already. The Chinese concept of chi permeates their music, martial arts, medicine, architecture and religion, among other things.

Having watched the tone of this latest related topic like the last one that got vaporized from view and seeing where this is going yet again time to get back to drummers and drums,cymbals etc.. and send this puppy to never never land once and for all IMO.

I have noted of late that Christianity is being spoken about alot in drumming circles. Modern Drummer is beginning to look like the Christian science monitor. There is even a photo of Thomas Pridgen pointing to religious graffiti. I have no idea why this is happening. I feel the site does not need it. But I see people mentioning their god in posts that have nothing to do with the opening topic. Personally I feel that this is arrogance on the part of the poster who imposes his or her beliefs on others. And it is insulting to those who did not ask for it and who do not share the same beliefs.

Something I have never done here is speak about religion. And I'm a minister. But I wont impose it upon anyone. It does not belong.

(By the way, I don't practice.)

I feel if religious threads are not allowed, the same should be applied to people imposing religious beliefs in individual posts. But how to police it?

This adds to my suspicion that your original post on this thread was somewhat antagonistic. There are rational, respectful and useful ways to discuss the intersection between music, religion and spirituality, for those who are open to those kinds of discussions and wish to go there. If they don't want to go there, then I guess there's nothing more to discuss, is there now?

it is kind of a quandry isn't it? You read guys like Chris Coleman, Brian Blade and the host of drummers for whom their religions background is an important aspect of their drumming because they've come up through the church. In American music, you cannot detach popular music from Pentacostal music (or Hebrew music, or Latin music from Voodoo religions.) The church is where the 'rock' comes from that put the rhythm in Rhythm and Blues. You read the lyrics of all the old blues guys, and all they talk about is "The end."

Lead belly's Ol' Hannah

Why don't you go down, ol' Hannah
Don't you rise no more
If you come up in the mornin'
Bring judgment sure

Stan warned me against discussing certain topics on the internet was just not a good idea. But I didn't believe him. It is a rough ride.

I, too think talking about religion in this forum is pointless and shouldnt be allowed. I mean the only provable fact about Christianity is that hundreds of millions of people believe in it. And talking about it on a drum forum and a couple people discrediting it by saying you cant prove any of it is not going keep people from practicing it. It is hard (really!) to make someone believe differently about a view they have been practicing since they were born

__________________
"Defeat is crowned by Success, Only if you Persist."

I agree 100% Jon. It does seem to me that when there are happening religious or political discussion on one thread, the nastiness starts to leak over to the others.

Yes and this is one of my big concerns Ken that I have noticed when political or religous differences are brought up and people see where each other stands and don't see eye to eye on the subjects and the once happy flow of information on drum related topics till then between certain individual members takes on a different less open tone dividing the membership up.

Keep open discussions of POLITICS and RELIGION off Drummerworld Forum for the sake of our whole online community and for keeping it one.

Ehhhhhhhhh, I dont want to say this, but I will. I remember when the "Christian Drummers Get ALLLLLL the work" thread came out. I said it should be deleted, B. said he wouldnt delete it. No one else said anything, except for things like - (deleted) So look at us now, C'mon friends, I hate seeing any kind of personal "mud-slinging"(you might not see it, but I do) here, but when these things are let to go on... well, here we are,and there we be!

I have absolutely no problem with anyone's religious orientation, but when I see a post that not only suggests, but clearly states "God IS Everywhere", I cant help but be offended, I have no grudge against the poster of this statement, but I happen to feel the way I feel. Blame ME? Sure, if you want to, its cool, I ve been through worse....just know fellow drummers, I am here to gain advice, give what advice I can, and talk about DRUMS!

As already stated, our cyberspace has plenty of stops for those who want to voice their personal opinions on things like- Religion. Politics, Racism, Sexism,....Etc. I m here for one thing- DRUMS, and music as a side dish. So, can we keep it elsewhere and just be cool?

I dont think there should be any type of forum dedicated to religion of any type, no matter what it may consist of.... It will only create more havoc, and attract more argument. Sad as it may be, this is the way the normal "human" works, When one is offended, one will react. When all are insulted, all will insult back..Its the way we work....sucks but true.

I consider every one here a friend in a way, I dont wanna lose a friend. Especially one I ve never met! You may be Satan himself, but as far as I know, you re just a fellow drummer. Is it hurtin me? Nah, I m just glad to have people to talk to that share my interests. And what might that be?.... By the way.... anyone know how to fix a vintage strainer on my '64 Ludwig Supraphonic? OOOORRRR, help me identify this crazy-ass cymbal? How about the specific thread spacing on the lugnuts of an '82 Rogers' bass drum?

I am here to gain advice, give what advice I can, and talk about DRUMS!

You're heck of a nice guy CDR, and I totally appreciate everything you just said. My view personal view on religion is exactly the same as yours - to impose is to insult and to talk of mine is to disrespect yours.

Having said that, where I'm really coming from is DMC's point about the proximity of spirituality to music. Here I would also amend DMC's point and include Western music. Much of the western classical symphonic works were borne of the Church diktats and the belief systems of the time, and jazz's roots, as we know, are in African tribal ritual music.

If we say we are a drum forum, will we stop at drum technique & cymbal felts ? I wonder if we are short changing ourselves?

Billy Ward discussed this at great length on a thread a while back. Practicing drums v/s practicing music, reaching for your inner self and putting it out there in our music - and whether we, as drummers spend enough time doing/thinking of that.

I'm not putting forth a point of view here, but merely spelling out a distinction between " My beliefs are superior to yours" mindset v/s " The spirituality of music".

The latter is intrinsic to what we do on the drums, is my only point.

Maybe it just cant be done on a forum as Jeff, Stan and our resident sage, MFB suggest. Maybe its all just too personal, and shouldn't be discussed on an open forum.

Like I said in my 1st post, if wishes were horses and I had Tony's........spirituality.... I'd be a monkey's jazzy uncle.

For myself, I don't like being told what can't be talked about. Talking about things is okay, right? After all, it's only talking, discussing, the old back-and-forth. Call it debating, call it dialectics, but I don't see why there should be anything to fear or be offended by, considering the vast amount of rubbish that we all get exposed to during to course of any day.
As to the argument that young people view these discussions, I say only this. So what? Are we supposed to provide young people with a sanitized view of what actually happens in life?
Also, I can see that there are some people here, who could well be very fine drummers indeed, who wish to put forward their religious ideas as motivations for their approach to the instrument, and I have no problem with that as long as they're ready for comments or even criticisms that may come from the other side.
It's life, yeah? I'm pretty sure we're all big enough to take it.
Having said that, rules are rules and we're all priviledged to have this site, so we're all in the position of having to respect the guide-lines set down by those who have provided this site for us to use.
Still, it's fun to see just how much you can get away with...

You think you described 'salvation' where others would say you described an acid trip.

And spare us PLEASE with your 'real musicians follow God' stuff, you haven't a single bit of fact to back that up. I find some of the best musicians are non-believers, because they are lead by pure and total freedom, and its MY BELIEF that good art can only be produced with NO CONSTRAINTS placed on it. If religion does anything, it places constraints on people. And that IS FACT.

Your post is a perfect example of why this thread was started in the first place. Congratulations!

First, let me say that religious, political, and other difficult subjects should, in my opinion, be limited on any music forum. However, I do believe that censorship must be avoided. What disturbs me about this thread, no offense to Bob, is that it starts with the concept of "Oh oh, what if we say something that offends ____ ____ (fill in the blanks)" I'm a 71 year-old dude and I've seen this attitude proliferate over my life time. We are sometimes so afraid to say or do something that will offend someone that our freedom of speech has suffered. Granted, religion, politics, and many other subjects are controversial. But if everyone starts thinking "oh, oh, who might be offended?" before they say or do anything; we have a problem. No one on this earth is quaranteed immunity from offending or being offended. No one has the right to put a gag in someone's mouth because they feel offended.

Yes, there are two different Deltadrummers on the forum located in two different parts of the world. You're correct in assuming that I quoted Ken.

Thanks for clearing that up. Just want to be clear who is quoting what and for whatever reasons in doing so.

I'm not interested in taking sides in this debate publically and have been perfectly clear in this thread today a few times with the important reasons I mentioned for the sake and health of the forum in that regard so I don't want to be quoted out of context pushing anyones personal agenda on the subject matter starting the flames going all over again. Understood?

We should all put the to rest and get back to the discussion of other drumming related topics as the forum was intended.

I'm a 71 year-old dude No one has the right to put a gag in someone's mouth because they feel offended.

Anyone that can say they re a 71 yr old dude is welcome to my "party"....While I agree with you about being "silenced" for stating a(n) believe/opinion, I respectfully add that as long as it s not so blatant, and more of an observasion,or personal experience opposed to say something like- :"_ _ _ IS everywhere, and thats all I have to say, and I wont say no more" Then we ll be just fine. Unfortunately, this will happen from time to time, and I think said guy should look outside of his own * box* and think about what they re saying, rather than just sayin it and then dissapearing into the fog, leaving anyone or everyone to decipher what has been said... We re all drummers, and we are all here(i hope) for the same basic reason---DRUMS., I dont even remember exactly where I was aiming this arrow, but it ll come back soon. And the "acid" trip, well it is what it is, how can someone categorize something like this...It is quite an "eye-opener" and can be a literally "life-changing" experience, Believe it or not....

people.. don't see eye to eye on the subjects and the once happy flow of information on drum related topics till then between certain individual members takes on a different less open tone dividing the membership up.

For myself, I don't like being told what can't be talked about. Talking about things is okay, right? After all, it's only talking, discussing, the old back-and-forth. Call it debating, call it dialectics, but I don't see why there should be anything to fear or be offended by, considering the vast amount of rubbish that we all get exposed to during to course of any day.
As to the argument that young people view these discussions, I say only this. So what? Are we supposed to provide young people with a sanitized view of what actually happens in life?
Also, I can see that there are some people here, who could well be very fine drummers indeed, who wish to put forward their religious ideas as motivations for their approach to the instrument, and I have no problem with that as long as they're ready for comments or even criticisms that may come from the other side.
It's life, yeah? I'm pretty sure we're all big enough to take it.
Having said that, rules are rules and we're all priviledged to have this site, so we're all in the position of having to respect the guide-lines set down by those who have provided this site for us to use.
Still, it's fun to see just how much you can get away with...

Well, said. It is a shame that their are certain taboo subjects, and that is a reality of life beyond this forum.

As far as religion and politics, they are so vast a subject to discuss, with so many complications and subtleties; but they often become couched as believer v. non-believer, liberal v conservative. Are most people's belief systems that simplified? I would hope not.

If we talk about Christianity, whose Christianity are we talking about? Catholics, Pentacostals, Unitarians, Jews for Jesus, United Church of Christ? They all have their own belief system, and they do not agree, even about the most fundamental theological concepts.

The on-line forum is a sound bite (word-bite) world. I think that that limits the scope of what it can actually do. But I personally would rather suffer through the perils of free open discussion, than to read through the endless list of favorite albums, favorite tunes or favorite drummers that forum posts on the internet can become.

There are visitors to this forum of all religious backgrounds and beliefs. I have noticed that the main forums on this site are being frequently used to discuss Christian religious topics. I think that the people who are using the main forums for Christian discussions are offending others who don't share the same interest in their threads.

Why are you reading threads that offend you? We all have the ability to choose which threads are pertinent to us. I don't read every DW thread in it's entirety. I scan the topics and determine whether or not a thread is worth my attention. If you choose to read through something that is sensitive to you then you are choosing to be offended.

I think, in the end, that the Christian Drummers Get All The Work thread is the only one that really offended people, be they atheists, of another religion, Christians who disagreed, or Christians who got insulted by other people in that thread. This happened because that thread became a full-blown religious discussion, with nothing about drumming after the first few posts. Not good, and I don't think we should have that again.

With that said, a lot of religious drummers, and it seems that especially Christian drummers, believe that their drumming comes from God, should be used for God, etc. There is no reason to say they can't express that. In a thread about "what motivates you to drum," if the answer is "God," then that person should be allowed to express that. And should have the ability to express that without getting banned, or without having every atheist drummer jump down his throat and call him an idiot.

So I think that purely religious discussions should be banned from here, and those posts that are purely religious, without relating to drumming, should be deleted. That way, when the conversation goes:

Person 1: All this bad stuff has happened lately, I feel like God might be telling me to quit drumming.
Person 2: Nah, stick with it, man, we all have hard times.
Person 3: God doesn't exist, so no.
Person 4: Person 3 is an idiot, and will burn in hell
Person 5: Hey man, no worries, if you love drumming, you'll stay with it.

Person 3 and 4 would have their posts deleted, and be given warnings (which can lead to bannings), but the actual discussion, about what the drummer is feeling, related to drumming, can stay.

This allows for stuff like, "Question about drumming in church," "Here are pics of the new kit at my church," "I play Christian rock," and stuff like that, but leave out, "If you don't know Jesus, you will burn in flames for all eternity, loser," or "If you believe in God you're an idiot and when worms are eating you, you will have wasted your pitiful life, loser."