toolonglegs wrote:I would run deep dish everyday if I could as well. 50mm is a nice training wheel... wind doesn't bother me. "Train heavy / race light" sounds great... but it makes no difference to your fitness, your training is just slower with the same power output.I would quite like to try the Fulcrum Wind 50's on my CX bike in the mud

If you are building strength / power, doesn't training heavy help this?

If I have a power meter on my bike and go out and hold 350 watts for an hour... does it matter how much the wheels weigh?. If the wheels are 1 kilo or 2 I am still holding the same power output.Yes the light weight wheels will feel lighter when I put them on and I may accelerate quicker and climb quicker... but that isn't making any difference to the amount of power I apply to the pedals.

Sure I get that, if you switch from one bike to another on the same day then power output doesn't change.

But intuitively it would make sense that if you go out and climb hills with heavier wheels (or bricks in your backpack) regularly as part of your training, over time you will get stronger, more powerful, faster.

jimboss wrote:Sure I get that, if you switch from one bike to another on the same day then power output doesn't change.

But intuitively it would make sense that if you go out and climb hills with heavier wheels (or bricks in your backpack) regularly as part of your training, over time you will get stronger, more powerful, faster.

I suppose what TLL is saying is that if you climb a hill on a light bike at 300W and then you climb it with a backpack full of bricks at 300W it's the same training benefit except that you go slower with the bricks. The difference being if you climb slower with the bricks then the hill will take you longer so you'd get some additional benefit from being at that 300W power output for longer. Assuming you're just riding along the flat though and you sustain the same power for the same time you'll just end up going further on the light bike. I don't know though because I tend to go on rides of set distance not set time, so if I were to ride a heavier bike I would work harder over the length of the ride.

jimboss wrote:Sure I get that, if you switch from one bike to another on the same day then power output doesn't change.

But intuitively it would make sense that if you go out and climb hills with heavier wheels (or bricks in your backpack) regularly as part of your training, over time you will get stronger, more powerful, faster.

I suppose what TLL is saying is that if you climb a hill on a light bike at 300W and then you climb it with a backpack full of bricks at 300W it's the same training benefit except that you go slower with the bricks. The difference being if you climb slower with the bricks then the hill will take you longer so you'd get some additional benefit from being at that 300W power output for longer. Assuming you're just riding along the flat though and you sustain the same power for the same time you'll just end up going further on the light bike. I don't know though because I tend to go on rides of set distance not set time, so if I were to ride a heavier bike I would work harder over the length of the ride.

But doesn't that completely discount muscle development from pushing more weight?

jimboss wrote:Sure I get that, if you switch from one bike to another on the same day then power output doesn't change.

But intuitively it would make sense that if you go out and climb hills with heavier wheels (or bricks in your backpack) regularly as part of your training, over time you will get stronger, more powerful, faster.

I suppose what TLL is saying is that if you climb a hill on a light bike at 300W and then you climb it with a backpack full of bricks at 300W it's the same training benefit except that you go slower with the bricks. The difference being if you climb slower with the bricks then the hill will take you longer so you'd get some additional benefit from being at that 300W power output for longer. Assuming you're just riding along the flat though and you sustain the same power for the same time you'll just end up going further on the light bike. I don't know though because I tend to go on rides of set distance not set time, so if I were to ride a heavier bike I would work harder over the length of the ride.

But doesn't that completely discount muscle development from pushing more weight?

I'm afraid you've totally missed the point. If you have a light machine and you put the same power in you just go faster and the energy is absorbed by the wind rather than rotating up the heavy bike.

jimboss wrote:I get that point, I've already acknowledged that. A heavier bike makes you slower as power is fixed in the short term.

I am curious as to why, in regular training, there is 'no benefit' in training heavy in order to build strength/power.

Well, the benefit to training heavy is you save $$$ on the equipment, and it may be more durable. The downside is it takes you longer to get places and you ride a bike that probably doesn't ride so nicely.

The benefit to training light is you get there quicker, and the bike feels nice to ride. The downside is cost, and in some cases durability.

jimboss wrote:I get that point, I've already acknowledged that. A heavier bike makes you slower as power is fixed in the short term.

I am curious as to why, in regular training, there is 'no benefit' in training heavy in order to build strength/power.

There's absolutely no difference to the amount of force you put into the pedals assuming constant power and cadence. That means on a heavy bike compared to a light bike for the same power and cadence your muscles aren't pushing any harder and so they're not going to be getting stronger any faster than on the light bike, you'll just be in a different gear going slower.

Therefore the only way to get stronger is to ride more and ride smarter?

Yeah the way I see it the only way to get stronger is to train longer, harder or smarter. There's huge amounts of research into proper exercise/training programs and constant development that I really have no idea about but from what I understand a good place to start is hours and kilometers ++

Jim, the sum of it all is effectively this - your speed, cadence, gearing, wind resistance, efficiency, everything is irrelevent when you can isolate your power output. Everything else is an adjustment to your power. You will be able to ride longer with less resistance/weight/etc at the same speed than with more resistance/weight, because your power will be lower. If you keep power constant, and are only focussed on power, then you can disregard everything else.

It is wise to train heavy, race light, because you'll do more KMs heavy and wear out your VERY expensive gear if you race on it. If you're happy to spend up, then who cares? LOL