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Does it matter what proportion of trans-identifying men are violent and aggressive?

Yes, it absolutely does.

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There are enough of them to create a substantial problem

This doesn't tally with what you've said previously. You said you didn't and couldn't know numbers. Now you believe you do have some idea of the numbers. Which is it?

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and it doesn't magically go away just because you're happy that it's not a high percentage.

Everything is a percentage. I'm not prepared to wreck the lives of people who have it hard enough already because ou believe there's a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance that a tans man is going to harrass a woman in a lavatory somewhere.

Now, if you can show that it's a 25% chance or some such, then I'll listen, but you can't. You can't show any numbers at all and I believe you need to if your argument is to have any credibility at all.

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In what way are inoffensive trans-identifying people being restricted from their normal daily activities by a group of lesbians rocking up to Pride with banners that say things like "Lesbian = female homosexual" and "The penis is not a female organ"?

Because, if there's no risk - and you really haven't shown there is - then my default position is 'do what you like'. A man who identifies in all ways as a woman would probably be very uncomfortable being forced to use a men's lavatory. They'd be more comfortable in a ladies. In the absence of any negative consequences - which you haven't shown - let them use the ladies - their life is hard enough as it is. They probably just want to take a ****.

Well, I'm not a man so the invasion of men's spaces is not my primary concern. However I see no reports of aggressive, bullying trans-identifying women intimidating men or threatening or perpetrating violence against men for the crime of not including them in men's groups or activities.

I don't see women on testosterone marching with blue baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire with labels such as "TERM-basher" on them. I don't see any sign of an equivalent problem on the other side of the sex divide. Perhaps I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, show me the evidence this is a thing and I'll reconsider.

I wonder why that is. I'd guess that men simply don't care as much as women do but it's not obvious to me why that is. Maybe they're less afraid, or more accepting, or have different criteria for what makes someone able to join said space, or aren't as entitled to their own "(male) spaces".

Show me a trans-identifying woman who's being violent and aggressive towards men and I'll tell you.

ETA: I probably phrased that badly. There does not appear to be a cohort of trans-identifying women who are being violent and aggressive towards men, and calling gay men transphobic if they say they don't want to have sex with them. So this is a problem pretty much confined to the male of the species.

No it is not, the idiocy spans sex.

I've been labeled a trans phobe and was attempted to be removed physically from a location due to turning down a trans man. Not only that but doing so, not in general but simply for that night (I'm bi, but I was looking for a living penis that night).

It's just the certain type of person who feels entitled to sex. In another world that same guy would have been a neck beard whining about girls all being stuck up.

Are there any actual numbers or anlysis on that page? I can't see anything that would constitute anything more than anecdote.

It's just a whole page of argument by twitter. You can pretty much show anything by cherry picking twitter bolocks.

OK, it should be easy, then, for you to find lots of examples of "TERFs" threatening to kill transgender activists.

Here are some anti-TERFs espousing the same ideology, putting their words into action at Speakers Corner, Hyde Park, London, [2.49]:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I wonder why that is. I'd guess that men simply don't care as much as women do but it's not obvious to me why that is. Maybe they're less afraid, or more accepting, or have different criteria for what makes someone able to join said space, or aren't as entitled to their own "(male) spaces".

Males of any stripe don't have safe spaces,we have places where other males are that may be possibly very male focused but legally cannot be a safe space for males only.

Kinda hard to attack what isn't there, he'll gay bars are full of straight women now. (Not that I mind that, one stop shopping when I'm single, but the gay gents seem annoyed)

This doesn't tally with what you've said previously. You said you didn't and couldn't know numbers. Now you believe you do have some idea of the numbers. Which is it?

Everything is a percentage. I'm not prepared to wreck the lives of people who have it hard enough already because ou believe there's a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance that a tans man is going to harrass a woman in a lavatory somewhere.

Now, if you can show that it's a 25% chance or some such, then I'll listen, but you can't. You can't show any numbers at all and I believe you need to if your argument is to have any credibility at all.

Because, if there's no risk - and you really haven't shown there is - then my default position is 'do what you like'. A man who identifies in all ways as a woman would probably be very uncomfortable being forced to use a men's lavatory. They'd be more comfortable in a ladies. In the absence of any negative consequences - which you haven't shown - let them use the ladies - their life is hard enough as it is. They probably just want to take a ****.

Oh, we're back to "But I just want to pee!" again. Let's not go round that again, because that wasn't what the Pride lesbians were highlighting.

It's not a question of percentages, it's a question of absolute numbers, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the absolute numbers and high profile of the aggressive trans rights bullies are enough to constitute a serious problem. They're everywhere. Contacting venues to have women's meetings cancelled. Shouting and banging outside to drown out the speakers when they fail in that. Joining lesbian groups and insisting that their penises are giant clitorises or lady dicks and they should be accepted by lesbians as potential sex partners. Competing in athletic events against girls and women and generally beating them. Insisting on being allocated a sleeping space in a female dormitory even though they are male-bodied. Demanding to be sent to a woman's prison even though they are male-bodied. Being named "woman of the year" in various contexts, denying an actual woman the award. Getting on to women-only short-lists and being counted as women for the purposes of gender balance. Even (in one case) suing a woman's rape crisis centre because of not being allowed to do face-to-face rape counselling of abused women. And woe betide any uppity woman who tries to speak out against any of this.

You want women just to shut up and budge over and accept all this, because it's not a problem that affects you. Thanks for the support. Not.

__________________"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

OK, it should be easy, then, for you to find lots of examples of "TERFs" threatening to kill transgender activists.

Here are some anti-TERFs espousing the same ideology, putting their words into action at Speakers Corner, Hyde Park, London, [2.49]:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I wonder why that is. I'd guess that men simply don't care as much as women do but it's not obvious to me why that is. Maybe they're less afraid, or more accepting, or have different criteria for what makes someone able to join said space, or aren't as entitled to their own "(male) spaces".

It's pretty obvious from this side of the sex divide. Men seldom feel threatened by women. The opposite, however...

Actually, though, we have evidence from the Man Friday activists that men do feel very uncomfortable when an obvious woman marches into their designated spaces and plonks herself down declaring that she "identifies as a man". It seems, however, that trans-identifying women don't do this. Funny that.

__________________"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Oh, we're back to "But I just want to pee!" again. Let's not go round that again, because that wasn't what the Pride lesbians were highlighting.

It's not a question of percentages, it's a question of absolute numbers, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the absolute numbers and high profile of the aggressive trans rights bullies are enough to constitute a serious problem. They're everywhere. Contacting venues to have women's meetings cancelled. Shouting and banging outside to drown out the speakers when they fail in that. Joining lesbian groups and insisting that their penises are giant clitorises or lady dicks and they should be accepted by lesbians as potential sex partners. Competing in athletic events against girls and women and generally beating them. Insisting on being allocated a sleeping space in a female dormitory even though they are male-bodied. Demanding to be sent to a woman's prison even though they are male-bodied. Being named "woman of the year" in various contexts, denying an actual woman the award. Getting on to women-only short-lists and being counted as women for the purposes of gender balance. Even (in one case) suing a woman's rape crisis centre because of not being allowed to do face-to-face rape counselling of abused women. And woe betide any uppity woman who tries to speak out against any of this.

You want women just to shut up and budge over and accept all this, because it's not a problem that affects you. Thanks for the support. Not.

No need to go over board, it's not because it doesn't affect them, it's because supporting trans folks gets them more applause from the sjw crowd.

It's being selfish not ignorant, give them some credit. They know it's a problem and they picked their side based on what gets them more likes.

OK, it should be easy, then, for you to find lots of examples of "TERFs" threatening to kill transgender activists.

Here are some anti-TERFs espousing the same ideology, putting their words into action at Speakers Corner, Hyde Park, London, [2.49]:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

That could be all of them in the whole world all gathered in one place, whiich would make them a vanishingly small percentage. Or that could be a tiny, tiny portion of the whole.

Do you have any statistics? I'm being inundated with argument by anecdote here. You and Rolfe seem to be the primary standard bearers and you're both so sure it's an issue, but you've both only come with 'feelings' anecdotes and stuff you 'know' without showing how you know it.

Nothing I have seen so far constitutes evidence of a problem beyond a teeny, tiny group of loud idiots. There are a subset of loud idiots in any group, it's the nature of people. You've not shown that it's in any way a problem.

Again, as with all idiot subsets, I would recommend dealing with and prosecuting the subset as and when it's called for. The massive, and as far as I can see, unjustified, brush that you and Rolfe are using - from a position of no statistical information at all, is freaking me out when I'm on a skeptics forum.

It's pretty obvious from this side of the sex divide. Men seldom feel threatened by women. The opposite, however...

Actually, though, we have evidence from the Man Friday activists that men do feel very uncomfortable when an obvious woman marches into their designated spaces and plonks herself down declaring that she "identifies as a man". It seems, however, that trans-identifying women don't do this. Funny that.

Seems they don't according to?

You have good points, right up until things go outside of your realm of experience. Then you seem to fall back on men=****.

Trust me there are plenty of guys like myself who support you in this. If you can avoid metaphorically spitting in my face I'll most certainly have your back. If there is something gueer guys know it's being pushed aside in favor of the sjw flavor of the week. Now that queer women are feeling it, maybe it's time for us to stop fighting over the spotlight and evaluate or methods of promotion and discourse.

Or we could just keep in fighting and letting the straight people decide who is the cutest new victim they support.

__________________- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Oh, we're back to "But I just want to pee!" again. Let's not go round that again, because that wasn't what the Pride lesbians were highlighting.

It's not a question of percentages, it's a question of absolute numbers, and there is no doubt whatsoever that the absolute numbers and high profile of the aggressive trans rights bullies are enough to constitute a serious problem.

Then it won't be too hard for you to show those numbers. From where are you gathering your information? Can I see it? Can I see your maths?

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They're everywhere. Contacting venues to have women's meetings cancelled. Shouting and banging outside to drown out the speakers when they fail in that. Joining lesbian groups and insisting that their penises are giant clitorises or lady dicks and they should be accepted by lesbians as potential sex partners. Competing in athletic events against girls and women and generally beating them. Insisting on being allocated a sleeping space in a female dormitory even though they are male-bodied. Demanding to be sent to a woman's prison even though they are male-bodied. Being named "woman of the year" in various contexts, denying an actual woman the award. Getting on to women-only short-lists and being counted as women for the purposes of gender balance. Even (in one case) suing a woman's rape crisis centre because of not being allowed to do face-to-face rape counselling of abused women. And woe betide any uppity woman who tries to speak out against any of this.

You want women just to shut up and budge over and accept all this, because it's not a problem that affects you. Thanks for the support. Not.

No, I just want you to show there is actually a significant problem to be solved. That's a mighty list you've written above. At the risk of repeating myself, do you have any evidence that it's a statistically significant risk that requires action. Because all I've seen is what you believe and your anecdotes. That's lousy logic. That's not even logic.

That could be all of them in the whole world all gathered in one place, whiich would make them a vanishingly small percentage. Or that could be a tiny, tiny portion of the whole.

Do you have any statistics? I'm being inundated with argument by anecdote here. You and Rolfe seem to be the primary standard bearers and you're both so sure it's an issue, but you've both only come with 'feelings' anecdotes and stuff you 'know' without showing how you know it.

Nothing I have seen so far constitutes evidence of a problem beyond a teeny, tiny group of loud idiots. There are a subset of loud idiots in any group, it's the nature of people. You've not shown that it's in any way a problem.

Again, as with all idiot subsets, I would recommend dealing with and prosecuting the subset as and when it's called for. The massive, and as far as I can see, unjustified, brush that you and Rolfe are using - from a position of no statistical information at all, is freaking me out when I'm on a skeptics forum.

I don't disbelieve the lesbians whose accounts I read about all their meetings being over-run by men insisting that they must be treated as women and their penises as big clitorises or lady dicks. I've seen a lot of relevant activity online supporting the case that there's a sizeable problem.

I've stopped being surprised by the number of men who wade into this telling women that as far as they're concerned it's not a significant problem so women, just budge over and make room for any man who wants to be in your space. It was always thus.

__________________"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Then it won't be too hard for you to show those numbers. From where are you gathering your information? Can I see it? Can I see your maths?

No, I just want you to show there is actually a significant problem to be solved. That's a might list you've written above. At the risk of repeating myself, do you have any evidence that it's a statistically significant risk that requires action. Because all I've seen is what you believe and your anecdotes. That's lousy logic. That's not even logic.

The chances of being in a mass shooting are incredibly small yet we take actions to correct them. In fact there is a massive movement for that right now.

In what way are inoffensive trans-identifying people being restricted from their normal daily activities by a group of lesbians rocking up to Pride with banners that say things like "Lesbian = female homosexual" and "The penis is not a female organ"?

Because said group of lesbians are directly denying - as you are - the personal validity of transwomen and transmen. The very fact that you can't even bring yourself to use those terms, but instead keep saying "trans identifying men/women" is exactly the same denialism.

To the other is about members of the LGBT community being silenced in favor of members that are more media relevant.

Stories about gay people are so last last year, trans is where it is at for gaining sjw points.

There is an argument that the trans lobby case has been taken up by Stonewall because as a gay, lesbian, homosexual lobby organisation they're redundant. They've got everything they wanted in that department, legally speaking. There's nothing left to campaign for as regards legislation and rights.

So what do they do? Disband, and everyone loses their jobs? Contract with death by a thousand cuts as their funding dries up? Or find a new group to be active for?

This is the basis of the lesbians' complaint. That their own organisation is ostracising them and taking the side of the heterosexual men who want into their pants. That was precisely the point being made by their banners. And the organisers tried to have them thrown off the Pride march for carrying these banners. (The men in skirts with the pink baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire labelled "TERF-basher" were absolutely fine though. That was just symbolic, didn't mean anything, not an actual incitement to violence - not like calling a man in a skirt "he", because that's literal violence.)

__________________"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

There does not appear to be a cohort of trans-identifying women who are being violent and aggressive towards men, and calling gay men transphobic if they say they don't want to have sex with them. So this is a problem pretty much confined to the male of the species.

And how many trans-identifying men are being violent and aggressive towards women, and calling lesbians transphobic if they say they don't want to have sex with them?

__________________The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
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Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232Ezekiel 23:20

And yet you and others are content to insist that because you know a few trans-identifying men who are inoffensive, nice people then that characterises the whole group and anyone who's different from that is the aberration.

It works both ways.

Or maybe the rational interpretation is that the anecdotal numbers suggest the ones you're bothered by are really just a noisy minority.

A bit like the noisy minority who decided to crash London Pride and steal the front of the march from the NHS. Never mind, I'm sure we can just pretend that wasn't a ****** and selfish thing to do, and we can pretend next year is the NHS's 70 anniversary all over again, and they can have another go at leading the march, eh?

Because said group of lesbians are directly denying - as you are - the personal validity of transwomen and transmen. The very fact that you can't even bring yourself to use those terms, but instead keep saying "trans identifying men/women" is exactly the same denialism.

Well of course they're pointing out that these people are not women. Because they're not women. This seems to be the basis for your position, that you demand that others should acknowledge something which is outside actual reality.

Well hey, reality called. These people are not women because a man cannot turn into a woman.

__________________"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Or maybe the rational interpretation is that the anecdotal numbers suggest the ones you're bothered by are really just a noisy minority.

A bit like the noisy minority who decided to crash London Pride and steal the front of the march from the NHS. Never mind, I'm sure we can just pretend that wasn't a ****** and selfish thing to do, and we can pretend next year is the NHS's 70 anniversary all over again, and they can have another go at leading the march, eh?

As I understand it, they did not set out to lead the march. They set out to join the march, and the organisers tried to have them ejected. They then lay down in the street either on or under their banners, not sure which. At some point the organisers were made aware that legally they had no power to exclude the women from the march. Their eventual position was the result of this contretemps and not actually intended.

__________________"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

This isn't the debate we need to be having. Questions of how exactly transgender people have to be conceptualized don't change the fact that they aren't a danger to us.

__________________- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

I wonder why that is. I'd guess that men simply don't care as much as women do but it's not obvious to me why that is. Maybe they're less afraid, or more accepting, or have different criteria for what makes someone able to join said space, or aren't as entitled to their own "(male) spaces".

One could be snarky and point out that men have had fifty years of being told they don't have any "male" spaces left that shouldn't be also open to women, and so have got used to not having any anymore.

As I said, I hear many lesbians lamenting that lesbian groups have been universally over-run by such people and that it's impossible to have a women-only group for anything without being accused of transphobia. That suggests it's not just one or two atypical individuals. I discovered recently that someone I've known slightly for about 20 years has a blog railing against lesbians for not being open to having sex with him. I've attended a public meeting to discuss the wider issues, and the speakers and the audience, describing their own personal experiences, certainly convinced me there was a problem.

__________________"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

I don't disbelieve the lesbians whose accounts I read about all their meetings being over-run by men insisting that they must be treated as women and their penises as big clitorises or lady dicks. I've seen a lot of relevant activity online supporting the case that there's a sizeable problem.

And how representative are these lesbians? Most I know are too busy living their lives to be attending the meetings of the over-politicised minority.

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