Not Only Did Paige Patterson Rejoice When a Woman Was Physically Abused By Her Husband, He Refused to Believe 25 Reports of Sexual Abuse by Darrell Gilyard

An abuser isn’t abusive 24/7. They usually demonstrate positive character traits most of the time. That’s what makes the abuse so confusing when it happens, and what makes leaving so much more difficult. Miya Yamanouchi

In June 2009, two rather audacious women, who were writing a blog that no one (except our friends) read, wrote A Call for Paige Patterson’s Resignation From the Ministry. (Please forgive the formatting – old platform and no time to make it look better.) Of course, no one read it and no one really cared. However, we were right in our thinking way back then, and now the world is jumping on board.

Paige Patterson rejoiced that a woman got beat up because her husband came to church. He did not report this incident to the police as far as we can tell.

Over the weekend, Jonathan Merritt picked up on Patterson’s dangerous statements on domestic violence, made at (of course) a Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood conference back in 2000. Note something: Did anyone at that conference jump up and tell him that his thinking was wrong? Of course they didn’t! Remember, the same people who were there way back then are still there now. Now, they love to pretend they are concerned…

The Washington Post is now picking up on this. The comments by seminary leaders should be taken with a grain of salt as I shall prove in this post. They are the ones who supported Patterson and went to ceremonies that honored him by naming buildings after him. So their newfound concern seems a bit smarmy to me. Some of these same folks also support CJ Mahaney. Oh yeah, they are really concerned about abuse….

The reasons why churches cover up sexual abuse and domestic violence are beyond us. The Bible is replete with admonitions to care for the lost and downtrodden. Who is more let down than victims of these crimes? We can only think of one possibility — murder victims. Perhaps it’s fear of lawsuits or disbelief that a minister could do such things. Frankly, there are no excuses.

Let’s start with Patterson’s view on domestic violence. Guess what? We have his own words on this subject, and he’s very proud of himself. This transcript is also available in audio via the internet. It requires a bit of a search because someone, who realized Patterson’s words are damning, attempted to expunge the record. They were uttered before the internet became an important factor in everyday life, so we’re certain Patterson never realized his address an a conference sponsored by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood(CBMW) would become available to the general public. In fact, when we came across his view on domestic violence, we didn’t know anything about CBMW. That’s what alerted us to this organization.

“The Southern Baptist Outpost has an article with an excerpt from audio recordings and transcripts from a conference in 2000, in which Paige Patterson explains the counsel he gave one battered woman.

“I had a woman who was in a church that I served, and she was being subject to some abuse, and I told her, I said, “All right, what I want you to do is, every evening I want you to get down by your bed just as he goes to sleep, get down by the bed, and when you think he’s just about asleep, you just pray and ask God to intervene, not out loud, quietly,” but I said, “You just pray there.” And I said, “Get ready because he may get a little more violent, you know, when he discovers this.” And sure enough, he did. She came to church one morning with both eyes black. And she was angry at me and at God and the world, for that matter. And she said, “I hope you’re happy.” And I said, “Yes ma’am, I am.” And I said, “I’m sorry about that, but I’m very happy.”

“And what she didn’t know when we sat down in church that morning was that her husband had come in and was standing at the back, first time he ever came. And when I gave the invitation that morning, he was the first one down to the front. And his heart was broken, he said, “My wife’s praying for me, and I can’t believe what I did to her.” And he said, “Do you think God can forgive somebody like me?” And he’s a great husband today. And it all came about because she sought God on a regular basis. And remember, when nobody else can help, God can.

And in the meantime, you have to do what you can at home to be submissive in every way that you can and to elevate him. Obviously, if he’s doing that kind of thing he’s got some very deep spiritual problems in his life and you have to pray that God brings into the intersection of his life those people and those events that need to come into his life to arrest him and bring him to his knees.”

Let’s go through his words. Patterson sent a woman home to an abusive husband and rejoiced when she returned to church with two black eyes because her husband came to church. What is wrong with this statement?

He had a moral and legal obligation to report the assault on this poor woman to the police.

He seems to think that the man coming to church means the man will not longer be an abuser. This is a naive and dangerous statement for a man who is supposedly educated. He had no idea, at the time, if that man would abuse again. In fact, statistics would seem to indicate that the husband is at high risk of doing it again.

He appears to push the agenda of the need for a women to be submissive to a man, even when it means she is put in harm’s way.

He does not mention getting this woman to a place of safety, nor does he mention getting her counseling and supportive help.

Here is Patterson’s statement on the Twitter frenzy.

For the past several months, my life and the lives of my family have been subjected to rigorous misrepresentation. Even had I done some hideous wrong of which I am accused, my wife, children, and grandchildren have not and do not deserve such mischaracterization.

For the record, I have never been abusive to any woman. I have never counseled or condoned abuse of any kind. I will never be a party to any position other than that of the defense of any weaker party when subjected to the threat of a stronger party. This certainly includes women and children. Any physical or sexual abuse of anyone should be reported immediately to the appropriate authorities, as I have always done.

I have also said that I have never recommended or prescribed divorce. How could I as a minister of the Gospel? The Bible makes clear the way in which God views divorce. I have on more than one occasion counseled and aided women in leaving an abusive husband. So much is this the case that on an occasion during my New Orleans pastorate, my own life was threatened by an abusive husband because I counseled his wife, and assisted her, in departing their home to seek protection. In short, I have no sympathies at all for cowardly acts of abuse toward women.

Many years ago in West Texas, a woman approached me about the desire of her husband to prevent her attendance in church. He was neither harsh nor physical with her, but she felt abused. I suggested to her that she kneel by the bed at night and pray for him. Because he might hear her prayer, I warned her that he could become angry over this and seek to retaliate. Subsequently, on a Sunday morning, she arrived at church with some evidence of physical abuse. She was very surprised that this had happened. But I had seen her husband come into the church and sit down at the back. I knew that God had changed this man’s heart. What he had done to his wife had brought conviction to his heart. I was happy—not that she had suffered from his anger, but that God had used her to move her husband to conviction of his sin. I knew that she was going to be happy for him also. That morning, he did make his decision for Christ public before the church, and she was ecstatic. They lived happily together from that time on in commitment to Christ. There was no further abuse. In fact, their love for one another and commitment to their home was evident to all. She herself often shared this testimony. For sharing this illustration, especially in the climate of this culture, I was probably unwise. However, my suggestion was never that women should stay in the midst of abuse, hoping their husbands would eventually come to Christ. Rather, I was making the application that God often uses difficult things that happen to us to produce ultimate good. And I will preach that truth until I die.

The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood released a statement regarding abuse with which I agree entirely. I do not believe there is a woman or girl ever associated with me who would allege any abuse on my part. To all who love me and have supported me across the years and to those who have been wounded by these accusations, I express my deepest regret. I do not apologize for my stand for the family and for seeking to mend a marriage through forgiveness rather than divorce. But I do greatly regret that the way I expressed that conviction has brought hurt. I also regret for my own family this deliberate misrepresentation of my position as well as the hatred that lies behind much of it.

We are going to disprove this statement made by Patterson after the following information.

I do not believe there is a woman or girl ever associated with me who would allege any abuse on my part.

CBMW chimed in with their #metoo statement on abuse in March 2018, almost two decades after enjoying Patterson’s talk.

There is no apology for allowing this stuff to be spoken under CBMW’s watch. Again, many of the same folks who were there back then are still there. Why should we believe that they care about abused women?

STATEMENT ON ABUSE
We believe abuse can be defined as any act or failure to act resulting in imminent risk, serious injury, death, physical or emotional or sexual harm, or exploitation of another person.
We condemn all forms of physical, sexual and/or verbal abuse.
We believe that the biblical teaching on relationships between men and women does not support, but condemns abuse (Prov. 12:18; Eph. 5:25-29; Col. 3:18; 1 Tim. 3:3; Titus 1:7-8; 1 Pet. 3:7; 5:3).
We believe that abuse is not only a sin but is also a crime. It is destructive and evil. Abuse is a hallmark of the devil and is in direct opposition to the purposes of God. Abuse must not to be tolerated in the Christian community.
We believe that the local church and Christian ministries have a responsibility to establish safe environments; to execute policies and practices that protect against any form of abuse; to confront abusers and to protect the abused, which includes the responsibility to report abuse to civil authorities.
We believe that church and ministry leaders have a special obligation to report abuse to civil authorities. Moreover, these leaders are responsible for knowing the laws of their state about reporting the suspicion or accusation of child and spousal abuse, and for following those laws in good faith.
We believe that the church must offer tender concern and care for the abused and must help the abused to find hope and healing through the gospel. The church should do all it can to provide ongoing counseling and support for the abused. The wounds of abuse run deep and so patience and mercy are needed over the long-haul as the church cares for the abused.
We believe abusers need to confess their crimes both to civil and church authorities, to repent of their sin, and to trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and forgiveness from their sin.
We believe that by the power of God’s Spirit, the Christian church can be an instrument of God’s love and healing for those involved in abusive relationships and an example of wholeness in a fractured, broken world.
_____________

*Adopted by the CBMW Board of Directors March 12, 2018

TWW sends its profound sympathies to the woman who was abused and then reabused by Patterson’s despicable statement. If she would ever like us to tell her story, we would be more than happy to comply. Our contact information is at the top of our blog.

It gets even worse…

Paige Patterson ignored the reports of 25 women who claimed they were sexually molested or harassed by Darrell Gilyard.

Let’s get back to Patterson’s statement. ”

“I do not believe there is a woman or girl ever associated with me who would allege any abuse on my part.”

We allege that Patterson did contribute to the abuse of women by refusing to report or even hear complaints of sexual abuse. This is reason #2 that we wanted him to step down. Christa Brown, of Stop Baptist Predators, posted this article from the Dallas Morning News. It is a devastating account of Patterson’s refusal to accept report after reports of abuse by young women.

Patterson refused to see the women who complained of Gilyard’s sexually abusive behavior.

Though many of the women who say they were involved with Mr. Gilyard said they feel guilt over their participation, they are angry at church officials who, they said, did little to protect them. One woman who said she had had a long-term affair with Mr. Gilyard said her phone calls requesting a meeting with Dr. Patterson were not returned. “His secretary said unless I had proof, he wouldn’t see me.’ Others recall meetings with church officials at both Victory Baptist and First Baptist churches who drilled them with questions about their emotional stability and their relationships with other men.

In August 2009, we wrote What Is Truth? The Deebs were in shock! We couldn’t believe this stuff was going on in the SBC.

We believe it is highly probable that Paige Patterson knew of Gilyard’s sexual escapades, yet did nothing about his horrendous behavior. Here’s an article from the Dallas Morning News dated July 14, 1991, where Patterson calls for witnesses and proof in order to take action against someone.

“Dr. Patterson said, “I was unwilling to call anyone guilty until I had demonstratable evidence that these allegations were true.’ Dr. Patterson said that according to Scriptures, action cannot be taken against a minister accused of adultery unless there are two or more witnesses. He also asked for any other proof, such as photographs, videotapes or laboratory tests.”

As reported in the Dallas Morning News, Gilyard left Concord Missionary Baptist Church in Dallas in 1987 after about 25 women complained of his “sexual misconduct.” The senior pastor, Rev. E.K. Bailey, “assumed that would be the end of Darrell Gilyard’s bright evangelistic career.” How tragically wrong he was.

At that time, the First Baptist Church of Dallas and Criswell College president Paige Patterson were promoting Gilyard in Southern Baptist churches. He was considered a rising star. Despite the many allegations against Gilyard, First Baptist officials “decided there was not enough evidence” to further investigate Gilyard, and, according to Rev. Bailey, Paige Patterson wrote him “an unkind letter” saying that “he would have come out to my church and solved the problem for me if I had told him first.”

Apparently, 25 accusations weren’t enough for Paige Patterson. In fact, according to the Dallas Morning News, Patterson painted “Gilyard as a victim” and suggested the accusers were motivated by “jealousy, frustration and racism.”

Gilyard would go on to other churches and engage in the same behavior. Thanks to Paige Patterson’s neglect in this matter, more women were abused. Eventually, Gillard was arrested and sent to jail. He was then released and guess what? He was hired by another Baptist church, which proceeded to get his probation terms changed in order to allow this despicable offender to minister to children once again.

Did Patterson originally report this abuse to the police? Not on your life! He is morally responsible for al subsequent molestations by Darrell Gilyard. He should have his head in shame. Instead, he will be enshrined, along with his BFF, Paul Pressler, in a stained glass window at SWBTS’ chapel.

And people wonder why The Deebs get bent out of shape at times? There is much more to write about Patterson, including his firing of Dr Sheri Klouda, which proves that he has little use for women in academia and was willing to cause serious pain to the entire Klouda family.

However, let’s switch topics.

SBC seminaries honors Paige Patterson way beyond the pale.

Sadly, the SBC has a tainted history when it comes to the abuse of women and sexual abuse by pastors and churches. The Deebs knew about this stuff back in 2009 and that is why we have continued to write.

I wonder if any of these seminaries ever thought about the abuse victims? Did any of them protest these awards? Did all of the current swath of SBC seminary leaders and mega pastors attend all of these award ceremonies and slap each other on the back? I know a few who did…

I have a suggestion. I think the SBC should reach out to all of those abused by Darrell Gilyard and offer to pay for their counseling instead of building Paige Patterson a Mcmansion for his retirement.

Not Only Did Paige Patterson Rejoice When a Woman Was Physically Abused By Her Husband, He Refused to Believe 25 Reports of Sexual Abuse by Darrell Gilyard — 439 Comments

From the post: “I have a suggestion. I think the SBC should reach out to all of those abused by Darrell Gilyard and offer to pay for their counseling instead of building Paige Patterson a Mcmansion for his retirement.”

Luke 3:8 & Matthew 3:8: “Therefore produce fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘ We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.”

Zaccheus: repaid 4x what he had unlawfully taken from his victims. Repentance.

None of Da Boys took Patterson seriously when he told that story before the CBMW years ago. I did not take the story seriously when I first read it ten or fifteen years ago. It’s not something that really happened. It’s just the kind of tall tale that Fundamentalist preachers tell to get some amens.

It appeals to the prejudices of the crowd. It tells them that their beliefs are valid despite all evidence to the contrary. They know it’s false but will cheer it because they want it to be true. They want to live in a world that conforms to their Children’s Church simplification of the Bible.

Paige Patterson did not tell a woman to stay and get a second black eye from her husband, and that husband did not get gloriously saved through her obedience and prayer. He made the story up for effect and the audience knew it was made up for effect.

@ JYJames:
Might Patterson pay for the counseling himself? Where is the leverage here? If his preacher buddies do nothing but award and support him, who has any power to make anything happen? The church seems toothless in its current state. Thanks for covering this and not giving up so many years ago when you saw what too many of us did not.

“”Paige Patterson asked me to refrain from speaking to anybody about this. He said unless I came back with two witnesses or proof that something had happened, not to come back.”

“….seminary leaders….. are the ones who supported Patterson and went to ceremonies that honored him by naming buildings after him. So their new found concern seems a bit smarmy to me. Some of these same folks also support CJ Mahaney.”
++++++++++++++++++++++

oh my goodness, what stupidity.

just how many stupidpills are these professional christians taking, anyway?

Patterson’s 2018 statement references not recommending divorce because it’s not Biblical. We’ll come back to that one.

In the 2009 TWW article what I found interesting was the same rationale apparently offered as it related to the Gilyard allegations. From the 2009 article: “‘We were dealing with a man of special gifts and talents,’ Dr. Patterson said. ‘I was unwilling to call anyone guilty until I had demonstrable evidence that these allegations were true.’ Dr. Patterson said that according to Scriptures, action cannot be taken against a minister accused of adultery unless there are two or more witnesses. He also asked for any other proof, such as photographs, videotapes or laboratory tests!”

Thinking Biblically, I don’t believe the institutions which have been financing Patterson’s career during the times of the matters at hand are operating at a pre-Acts 6 organizational structure. Why is that significant? Because these institutions are by and large enmeshed with the state, from their 501(c)3 status to those gold-edged flags in the edifices — which it’s been contended puts them under admiralty law and thus under subjection to the state as the highest authority.

You don’t get to cozy up to the state when it’s convenient for nest-feathering, only to turn solely to Biblical authority — with the church leader(s) as said enforcer — in matters that involve churchgoers who are also subject to local, state, and federal laws and regulations. Where is the acknowledgement from these oft-capricious authoritarians of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, or Romans 13 and Roman citizen Paul’s observing that the civil authorities not bearing the sword in vain?

We can now circle back to Patterson’s 2018 statement referencing not recommending divorce because it’s not Biblical. His spin appears to be a colossal strawman to anyone with common sense, as a woman seeking his advice and guidance not only reported physical abuse but showed credible evidence of it. Unless physical assault is not a crime where he was pastoring (I’m admittedly not up on NeoCal seminary discipline methods), not directing her to the authorities (and perchance acting as a witness to what he’d seen and heard doesn’t ring true as far as being subject to civil authorities and rendering sufficiently unto Caesar. That’s especially if the case if his reported 2009 quote is accurate: “Get ready because he may get a little more violent, you know, when he discovers this.”

Additionally, I don’t see where the “special gifts and talents” of Gilyard or anyone else is supposed to factor into the civil duties of someone acting in authority at an institution enmeshed with the state. (Being affiliated or not with the state via 501c3 etc isn’t the issue, but the high degree of involvement further undercuts the excuse that these actions are bolstered by a truly Biblical approach.) Plus, what’s with all of these lawyers and spokesmen the authoritarians being into the situation? If they’re going to go the two-three witness route and leave it at that before considering involving the state or anyone from the outside, then why not rather be wronged than let it go to that per a proof-texted reading of 1 Cor. 6?

The bottom line is the authoritarians need to be called out when they to have it both ways.

What is this? Take a black eye for the man, woman, and you are a Christian wife? Biblical Manhood and Womanhood?

Their take on gender roles and general approach to psychology is shallow garbage. It can not stand up in the face of real world problems. They love to hear these kinds of fairy tales where women (and men) take abuse from their spouse and it all works out in the end. But on some level they also know the stories are just preacher tales, and it wasses in one ear and out the other.

An outsider would immediately notice the man is recommending a woman to go back and get beat up by an abusive husband, but insiders are focused on the fantasy of the man getting gloriously saved by following just a few simple Bible steps.

just how many stupidpills are these professional christians taking, anyway?

Just a couple, on a daily basis: like ego, for example.

“Leaders are often so concerned about their status or position in an organization, that they actually forget their real job. And the real job of a leader is not about being in charge, it’s about taking care of those in our charge.” – Simon Sinek

Jesus would say, begin with the least of the least, such as widows and orphans, for example. Not the bro’hood.

Are they saying that the congregation or the leaders knew that Patterson’s story was false? That in itself is a travesty and cause for rebuke. Knowingly telling a false story in order to continue a mythical tale of false conversion? There would be vulnerable women listening to that story and possibly put themselves at risk in order to fulfill some wistful but false outcome?
Tragic, Stupid. But Hey, I got a small whuppin as a teenager (17) because Bill Gothard taught the dominance of the father and god forbid that I would lose that umbrella of protection because I was a bit rebellious. Talk about abuse of young women! They hid the shennigans of his brother for years and then Bill himself wildly abused his authority as well-of course he admits no wrong and I believe he is still in ministry. I am getting mad just thinking about it. Thank you BILL, for destroying so many lives and bringing disgrace on the Lord and his Church. And BILL, just remember what consequences King David suffered for bringing disgrace on the Name of Jehovah.

He made the story up for effect and the audience knew it was made up for effect.

I understand your entire comment. I have no idea as to whether any event like that took place, but I do know that this sort of story telling used to be rampant among baptist fundamentalist evangelists. If I could only remember some of the gloriously saved tales I heard long ago. In fact, gloriously saved absurdities were stock in trade at a certain level for people who would come and hold the spring and autumn ‘revivals’.

That said, I personally know of a case in which a notorious drunk and wife abuser did actually get gloriously saved, changed his entire way of life, the whole band wagon. The point of telling this story is what people then said about the situation. There were those who praised the wife for staying even in the face of everything. There were those who did not. And at least one who said they were glad he got saved but it was by then too late for the children who had grown up in that over the years.

So, yes, some people approved of women (and men sometimes) who tolerated abuse ‘to keep the family together for the sake of the children’ so I believe that Patterson joined the crowd who would spew that mess from the pulpit. Other people just did not believe the ‘preacher stories’ but did adhere to the idea that discipleship comes with a price-even though not sure what that might be. And there were others who thought that telling these stories was inexcusable for whatever reason. Mostly in the crowd I ran with we only occasionally showed up at ‘revival’-just enough to be seen a time or two.

RE’s first husband’s father, a baptist preacher/missionary, mentioned to me admiration for a woman’s toleration of abuse if necessary as a means of evangelization. The idea was there but not everybody agreed. The use of preacher stories like this was common. Whether Patterson was just telling a story or whether he actually believed it or whether he was actually involved…could be either way.

It is the idea of tolerating abuse which is the issue for me-not the issue of Patterson and this story and its’ credibility or not. And before somebody denounces me for not believing every word out of some story telling preacher’s mouth, just ask yourself would story telling preachers lie? distort the truth? copy the other guy’s pulpit c**p for effect? exaggerate? play to the audience? You betcha. Would somebody who really did stand up for an accused abuser favorite fellow pulpiteer try to pull some of this *** from the pulpit? You betcha. Was Patterson wrong about saying this? You betcha; big time wrong. Is this a true story? Nah. This is too close to all the other stories. It is a recognizable genre of ole timey conservative baptist pulpiteering. Garbage no less whether true or not.

While I am at it regarding gloriously saved from a life of rascal-ness.

We used to have testimony time in which people were supposed to stand up and testify to their own ‘salvation experience’. This served several purposes. It gave an opportunity for some people to get past their timidity and speak to the church. It did, to some extent, show the power of conversion clearly to the listening audience. But it also gave a platform to some performers.

One result was that those of us who had been born in the church, grown up in the church and who had no enticing and tingling story of sex, drugs or crime to tell ended up as second class christians who maybe were not even saved seeing that we had to shocking story to tell. Meanwhile the ex-whatevers, the such were some of you with the stories to tell were the stars of the show.

I figured it all out, as did a lot of us, really early on. Nobody is ‘saved’ by their story alone. Salvation by drama alone is heresy. Peter, James and John never fell off a horse to ‘get saved’. Miriam of Nazareth did not have a lewd past from which she was gloriously delivered. Sorry about that Miriam, you might have otherwise had a real story to tell.

Okrapod gets what I am saying. The story is most likely false, and the people at the conference understood it was a preacher tale. Almost everyone in a Fundamentalist church has a mind that operates at two levels. One is busy keeping up the act; the other tries to survive life as it really is.

The danger to these stories is you have people who don’t understand that some of it is just an act. If the story is false, there are still young men who have read it in the CBMW journal and some small number of them will take it seriously. If only one takes it seriously it could be life or death for a woman in his church.

Almost everyone in a Fundamentalist church has a mind that operates at two levels. One is busy keeping up the act; the other tries to survive life as it really is.

I love the way you say this. That’s exactly what I was doing until some things broke loose in my life and I only had enough strength to operate on the survival level. It opened my eyes to how fake so much of my life was, which was a really hard pill to swallow.

That said, if you think lying to get someone to convert is ok, that is a classic ends justify the means argument, and I don’t think it has any place in the church. God doesn’t need our lies.

Almost everyone in a Fundamentalist church has a mind that operates at two levels. One is busy keeping up the act; the other tries to survive life as it really is.

Yes, that, and also this.

I see some good things about really taking discipleship seriously. When I contrast my exposure to baptist fundamentalism on the one hand and my time with a church which was basically almost the opposite, for me even fundamentalism is closer to reality. Example: Discipleship really does come with a price, as one will see when we list to Paul recount his personal physical abuses and disasters for the sake of the gospel. Surely we cannot read Paul and ‘admire’ Bonhoeffer and still think that there are no prices to be paid, no difficult roads to travel. It is when we try to manufacture stuff for ourselves that we get off base.

If we condone the toleration of domestic abuse, how is that not similar to the early christians who sought martyrdom to the extent that the church had to forbid them to do that. Every easter the media shows us people who get themselves literally nailed to a cross as a religious act and we disapprove; can we then turn right around and approve if people accept domestic violence as a religious act of endurance. I don’t know why people unnecessarily embrace suffering, but I do see how embracing suffering when it is unavoidable can be the best way to deal with it. I have a stage 4 cancer, and I see a lot of people in the same situation over at the cancer treatment center. It is not something religious, but accepting suffering and seeing that some good can come out of it is just plain common sense, and I see them over there at the center doing that.

The preacher stories are mostly factually hogwash, but the ideas behind the stories are a mixed bag. Sometimes people do get persecuted (Paul) and sometimes endurance is a divine command (Jesus’ comments to the churches in Revelation) and discipleship is not your best life now all the time. Your best choice now, but that is a different way to see it. I think that it is this mix of truth and error that allows error to flourish so easily.

On the other hand, being in the world but not of it requires functioning at more than one level. Being able to function on the job, for example, but living differently at home is not in the same league as what James was saying. I am thinking that James was talking about people who could not get off the fence themselves, not people who were merely coping with the realities of their daily lives.

Example, again from a live example: a man with a long marriage to a wife diagnosed with schizophrenia and who was intermittently hospitalized for it. He saw her as mentally ill to the point of confinement to a locked ward when necessary and also saw her as his wife and the mother of his children and the woman he said that he loved. One woman, two realities. Double-minded? Well, not like James was saying.

Did Patterson write the movie “Warroom”? Sounds like it promoted the same idea. And Warroom might have been as factually-based as Patterson’s story. Pure fiction presented as fact.

Is it common for preachers to tell fictional stories as if they were factual? I’ve discovered that it’s normal to preach someone else’s sermon as if it were your own. These guys have their own set of rules.

I was a student at SEBTS while Patterson was president there (the late ’90s) and he shared/humble-bragged this story from the pulpit in chapel on at least one occasion because I can remember hearing it from his own mouth, and I did not attend the CBMW conference.

Having been around Patterson and his type for many years, I call into question the veracity of the entire story. I would not be at all surprised that Patterson made it up or, if there is a kernal of truth, he greatly exaggerated the events. He was and is a voracious and unrepentant braggart, and I could easily believe: 1. The whole story was fake, 2. The level of abuse was exaggerated, or 3. The husband never actually prayed to receive Christ in a genuine way. There were students at SEBTS who “got saved” in chapel, usually when attendance was high, and I always thought it was more for show than anything else (though I hope I am wrong).

Paige Patterson did not tell a woman to stay and get a second black eye from her husband, and that husband did not get gloriously saved through her obedience and prayer. He made the story up for effect and the audience knew it was made up for effect.

R2 – perhaps we know each other? Regardless, he told this story on many occasions, as I noted in my previous comment. I am well aware of his propensity towards hyperbole (to be charitable) but I can unequivocally state that in SEBTS chapel, the story was not shared ‘for effect’ but as a pattern for submission – I heard it with my own ears, while you read about it 10 years later.

It’s really easy for a man, particularly a man in a position at the top of an authoritarian structure, to lecture others about submission. Also, from the big game hunting pictures, he clearly seems like a guy with a lot of extra cash. Hasn’t he worked in organizations funded by donations his whole life? How in the world can he relate to normal people from his lofty perch paid for by the hard-earned money of good hearted people

Many years ago I belonged to a local church that was known for excellent preaching and a quality, high church boarding on liturgical, worship style. One thing I learned from that experience was that there were people in the church because of the pastor and his preaching and there were people there despite their dislike for the pastor and his preaching. There were also people there due to the style and quality of music and those that were there despite their dislike for the worship style.

There are many good hearted and well meaning people including students, faculty, administration and staff at SWBTS. Some of these are there because of Paige Patterson and some of them are there despite their opinions of him. Please join me in praying for the individuals there and for the future of the institution. Change is imminent as Patterson prepares for retirement. We can pray for that change to be in a positive direction for all concerned.

My vision for the seminary would be that is restored to a strong fiscal position in terms of operational budget, establish strong academics that are reflective of the wider collection of Southern Baptists (including Arminians and Calvinists on faculty), build a diverse theological faculty including minorities and women, and remain on the path of building a strong infrastructure.

Is it common for preachers to tell fictional stories as if they were factual? I’ve discovered that it’s normal to preach someone else’s sermon as if it were your own.

I have done neither.

I also have done neither.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to insult all preachers, pastors, etc. I have several pastor friends, and they would never do this sort of thing either. And they make subtle comments about other local preachers who download their sermon outlines. I’m sure they wouldn’t present a fictional story as if it was factual.

I guess my real question is: Is there something about this Fundamentalist subculture, this social group, that sees it as OK to present a fictional story as if it was fact?

Also, from the big game hunting pictures, he clearly seems like a guy with a lot of extra cash. Hasn’t he worked in organizations funded by donations his whole life? How in the world can he relate to normal people from his lofty perch paid for by the hard-earned money of good hearted people

Here’s my opinion: He can’t relate to normal, good-hearted people, he doesn’t want to try and he doesn’t care.

I wasn’t offended, just adding some balance. The only faculty member I know at SWBTS is Craig Blaising (Exec VP and Provost) and I can not imagine him doing so. He has my prayers, has to be a tough job.

I guess my real question is: Is there something about this Fundamentalist subculture, this social group, that sees it as OK to present a fictional story as if it was fact?

Forgive me for interjecting some words here, but it is something I want people to understand.

Some people believe that a particular story is true, so they think it is fine for it to be told. It encourages people who may be in the same sort of situation.

Some people do not believe the story itself, necessarily, but want such a thing to be true and believe in the message of the story, and will think that after all Jesus told stories which were not true in order to illustrate a point.

Some people think that it is manipulation and therefore wrong to do.

Some people think that it is emotionalism which has it uses if stirring up emotions helps people ‘get saved.’ And may I say that fundamentalists are not remotely the only people to play the emotions card in just lots of kinds of circumstances.

Some people just enjoy being emotionally stirred because it helps them deal with their own lives and stories of abuse, or dying children, or missionary stories of questionable miracles or whatever will do it for them.

Some people think it is silly, but that if it helps other people so what.

It is easy to look at a culture different from one’s own and because one misses the complexities it is easy to believe that there is more ‘group think’ than there is. I used to feel that way about one of the major christian groups in the US until I investigated further and learned more. Perhaps this is one way that people do not understand each other.

Some people do not believe the story itself, necessarily, but want such a thing to be true and believe in the message of the story, and will think that after all Jesus told stories which were not true in order to illustrate a point.

My response would be, there is no problem with fiction that doesn’t claim to have really happened. Fiction contains truth. Look at Jesus’ parables or Lord of the Rings or even Harry Potter. However, in my opinion, telling a story that didn’t happen as something that did to prove your point is dishonest.

Fiction is true if can be lived out successfully in the world. This is why, even if he framed it as a parable, this story is not “true.” I cannot imagine this ever working out like he said, and living this story out would only cause more abuse.

One result was that those of us who had been born in the church, grown up in the church and who had no enticing and tingling story of sex, drugs or crime to tell ended up as second class christians who maybe were not even saved seeing that we had to shocking story to tell. Meanwhile the ex-whatevers, the such were some of you with the stories to tell were the stars of the show.

How else can all those Respectable Church Ladies get their fix of vicarious JUICY JUICY JUICY SIN SIN SIN? Except by Spectacular (and JUICY) Testimonies?

You don’t get to cozy up to the state when it’s convenient for nest-feathering, only to turn solely to Biblical authority — with the church leader(s) as said enforcer — in matters that involve churchgoers who are also subject to local, state, and federal laws and regulations.

“”Paige Patterson asked me to refrain from speaking to anybody about this. He said unless I came back with two witnesses or proof that something had happened, not to come back.”
“….seminary leaders….. are the ones who supported Patterson and went to ceremonies that honored him by naming buildings after him.

Don’t forget the Stained Glass Windows…

So their new found concern seems a bit smarmy to me. Some of these same folks also support CJ Mahaney.”

Here is the hardest part. there are no good guys in this situation including Jonathan Merritt who deceived a church full of people for a big salary. It’s pretty bad when the people outing each other are cut from the same lack of character cloth but looking to score a political win. I have noticed some of these people are totally hands off when it comes to Mohler and CJ.

@ okrapod:
You will be in my prayers. Yes, the unnecessary suffering was promoted by both calvinist and non calvinist at CBMW. Too bad CBMW scrubbed their site from years ago or I could link more of it. It used to be a cash cow.

I looked at Wade Burleson’s list of reasons for Paige Patterson to resign, and one of them hit on one of my other interests…fakes and forgeries.

7. It is possible that the Hebrew parchments purchased by the Pattersons for an unknown sum (e.g. in the millions of dollars) during a time of insitutional financial crisis, fragments that are now on display at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, may actually be fakes.

Also, some might be interested in perusing this list of unprovenanced (as in, they have no proven history) fragments that have been hit the market since 2002. I’d draw your attention to items 13, 16, 25, 26, 37, 44, 54, 55, and 73, all sold to SWBTS.

And then there is the reported cost of these tiny, tiny fragments. Again, I’d direct your attention to item 16, which a family apparently ponied up $500K to buy. (We don’t know the cost of the other 8 fragments, but if you look at the list, it is not inconceivable the amount spent could be in the millions.)

Here is the hardest part. there are no good guys in this situation including Jonathan Merritt who deceived a church full of people for a big salary. It’s pretty bad when the people outing each other are cut from the same lack of character cloth but looking to score a political win. I have noticed some of these people are totally hands off when it comes to Mohler and CJ.

This is why I don’t do movements or church institutions anymore.

I agree.

Hearing multiple false stories in church and hearing the pastor regurgitate tinned sermons was one of the many nails the coffin of my faith.

Mr. Patterson is just one of many clowns in this tax free circus. Really no matter what happens to him, he’ll get a payday.

Did anyone send these media Outlets the video of John Piper teaching that “women should take abuse for a season”? Merritt? Has the video been scrubbed too? Wouldn’t he want to out all of them to the National media?

Piper and Patterson were very much involved in starting CBMW where this teaching comes from. It’s housed at sbts.

Some people believe that a particular story is true, so they think it is fine for it to be told. It encourages people who may be in the same sort of situation.

In other words, any story can contain elements of truth, whether or not the events actually happened. Jesus’ parables are a perfect example. There was a sower who spread seed over 4 different types of ground. To ask what his name was, where he lived and what sort of seed it was and whether he was a real person is to miss the point.

Maybe we’ve gotten too literal in our language, and not literary enough. We’re becoming more digital, where something is either completely true or completely false. Past generations just didn’t think this way.

I’ve developed the belief that most modern “preaching” had developed into a weird form of performance art. The audience just wants an emotional experience. That’s not always a bad thing, of course. But I find very little actual “teaching” in modern churches.

Oh my gosh! When I first looked at this page and saw the photo at the top I thought he was an amazing courageous man to be there rubbing that animal without any fear. I had not read anything on the page; the photo first drew my attention. Then, I kind of skipped the first lines and went right into the article starting with “In June 2009…”. Later it hit me and I went back and looked closer again because it had stuck in my head.

This is what comes to my mind from the Bible as I reflect on this photo and the link to the page describing his hunting trips:

1 John 2 For everything in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–comes not from the Father but from the world.

Jeremiah 9:24 But let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 11:30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.

I don’t see any humility here; only boasting. Personally, I think the animals are the righteous ones for at least when they kill they are doing it to survive; not to show off and boast.

Yes, the unnecessary suffering was promoted by both calvinist and non calvinist at CBMW

I was more thinking about some practices in some medieval monasteries. I was thinking about what one surgeon told me that where he came from some believe that physical suffering is good for people, so why use anesthetic if all you are going to do is drill through a proximal tibia to insert a bar. I was thinking about Mother Teresa and her stance on suffering.

There is a whole theology of suffering including in christianity. The protestants being discussed here in this conversation are amateurs at preaching suffering. Give them time, you reckon?

It is the idea of tolerating abuse which is the issue for me-not the issue of Patterson and this story and its’ credibility or not.

I suspect the story is a lie, or at least a gross exaggeration or conflation. (did someone get counseled to go home and pray? Probably yes. Did someone show up with a black eye? Would not be surprised. Did some husband show up at church claiming he was all better now? Easy to believe. Were these all the same person and was this fairytale happy ending real? No. Not in a million years. It may have happened a time or two here and there but this time, no.)

The issue is what it says and what it says is a dangerous fantasy that women are required to sacrifice, to the point of violence, to the point possibly of death, for their husbands potential salvation. And submit while doing it. As if they are responsible.

True story, false story, this is the story Patterson wants to pretend is real. It is a lie, like his denials this week are a lie.

I was looking at the people around me this morning, volunteering and helping each other out.

The more I think about it, anyone who seeks to be elevated will eventually lose when it comes to following Christ. And guys like Patterson want to be elevated. From his statement about men being elevated in the home to making hideous stained glass windows in a chapel (for Christ) of himself and his friends, he’s no longer following Christ.

So he should be removed from all positions that make him a ministry leader. And that’s true for all men like him that start elevating themselves over others.

But when it first came out my view was that it was a tall tale told to display a big Redemptive God and a very Holy Patterson who had insider understanding. It was also during the Heyday of CBMW of which Patterson was a big supporter along with Mohler, Piper, etc and before social media took off. The only thing Council on biblical manhood and Womanhood cared about in those days was divorce. So every single issue was centered around “no divorce”.

Frankly, I found it self-serving. And no one is accusing Patterson of being an abuser but as someone totally ignorant on the subject. So is Piper, Mohler, Moore, etc, etc.

I honestly see this as a political hit piece meant to recruit women to the other side. But they are exactly the same. I don’t see any good guys in the top-level leadership of the SBC.

@ Lea:
“The issue is what it says and what it says is a dangerous fantasy that women are required to sacrifice, to the point of violence, to the point possibly of death, for their husbands potential salvation. And submit while doing it. As if they are responsible.”

I was perusing the schedule for the SBC meeting in Dallas on June 12-13 and noted that in addition to Patterson giving the convention sermon on the 13th, Ravi Zacharias is speaking on Tuesday night. I have to stop rolling my eyes, they are going to get stuck in the up position.

@ Lea:
“The issue is what it says and what it says is a dangerous fantasy that women are required to sacrifice, to the point of violence, to the point possibly of death, for their husbands potential salvation. And submit while doing it. As if they are responsible.”
Bullies, thugs and cowards love this doctrine.

Mr Paterson’s infamous story, even if true, needed to be set in a much more cautious context. If he were talking about unexpected ways in which the Holy Spirit can work wonders that bring good out of evil, that would be one thing. But it would need significant other examples – for instance, of persecuted believers praying for and doing good to their persecutors, to similar effect.

Plus, a great weakness in the story is the fact that the person emerging with the credit is Paterson himself. It was, we are to believe, his steadfastly preaching the doctrine of patriarchy and female enslavement/subordination, in the face of being slightly unpopular with one person whom he didn’t respect anyway, that paved the way for a glorious move of God. Had it been the wife herself giving the testimony, in which she herself found strength, courage and dignity in the secret place of prayer, emerged from it daily filled with the Holy Spirit and with wisdom, and won a victory she’d always known was hers, it would be more significant.

But she probably wouldn’t be using it as proof that women in general should accept abusive marriages as their God-appointed lot in life.

Plus, a great weakness in the story is the fact that the person emerging with the credit is Paterson himself. It was, we are to believe, his steadfastly preaching the doctrine of patriarchy and female enslavement/subordination, in the face of being slightly unpopular with one person whom he didn’t respect anyway, that paved the way for a glorious move of God.

So, at the time of writing, the second leg of the GiveUsYerMoney Cup semifinal between Genuine Madrid and Bayern Munich is just about to kick off. Genuine Madrid are 2-1 up from the first leg and are as good as in the final already. There, they will play the winners of Roma vs Liverpool, whose semi-final second leg is played tomorrow.

Oh, and we’re going climbing in a minute. They’ve been route-setting at the climbing wall this week, so there should be a couple of new things to try. I’ll let you all know how it goes when we get back.

Of course the story is phony but the sentiments it expresses are vile and should be called out. He presents the story as true; call it out as though it’s true.

When I used to work in a church office, the mail constantly included advertisements for books of stories for preachers to use in case they weren’t creative enough to make up their own. These phony stories do not appeal to me at all. If we’re not speaking truth, what is the point? I admit, church just never made much sense to me. Do the phony stories mean we don’t *really* believe any of it? We’re just playing make-believe?

Jack Hyles was infamous for stories. Google “Jack Hyles’ Favorite Soul Winning Experiences” and you will see a ridiculous list of fantasies he claimed to have lived.

I was just reading twitter responses to this. I don’t like Moore, but good for him.

Although I will never cease to be astounded at the stuff I read from supposed ‘christians’ or ‘pastors’ about how they expect women (and occasionally men) to react in the face of adultery/abuse.

Look at this person: “The difficulty with “abuse” is that, almost certainly, there are other issues in the marriage, some the fault of the wife, but the abuse brings an urgency that prevents other discussion”

This is interesting question, do you ‘buy it’. What does that mean, really?

I think Moore seems to be looking for good PR, and he realizes racial reconciliation is necessary. Maybe he is realizing these former views are unpalatable. That is good, that they are unpalatable.

Does he really *believe*? Did he believe what he taught before. Were you lying then, or are you lying now. When someone is all about promoting themselves, they may have no core beliefs.

I would not *trust* him though, which is I think what you’re saying. The fact that he hasn’t repented of his former beliefs and actions says something here. But I can’t help but be glad that someone is willing to say what EVERYONE should be willing to say, which is that you are not bound in marriage to an abuser. Period.

I would not *trust* him though, which is I think what you’re saying. The fact that he hasn’t repented of his former beliefs and actions says something here. But I can’t help but be glad that someone is willing to say what EVERYONE should be willing to say, which is that you are not bound in marriage to an abuser. Period.

I believe he does not believe what he is saying, whether he is lying or he has no belief. Notice he does he not call for enforcement by asking that Patterson step down and relinquish his SWBTS mansion. Whenever issues like this come out (with the exception of politics), Moore might speak out against ideas, but he never speaks out against the people in the SBC who hold those ideas.

@ ishy:
A clue is they say nothing about what they taught before. The CBMW site was positively Mormon before they scrubbed and rebranded. Nor does he do a media hit on Piper for teaching the same. Hmm. Why? Piper was practically a dean at SBTS. It was a cash cow doctrine for 20 years.

This was a coordinated media hit. Moore and another guy involved have the contacts. Why does WaPo care about Patterson? Slow day?

None of that makes Patterson innocent. I refuse sides because I think both of them are charlatans. And this just shows me how vicious they can be for control and power.

Never forget that Mohler had the power to get his pro Mahaney comments to the Courier scrubbed 2 years later.

@ ishy:
Other people do it for him. It’s already out there. But note these people have never called for Mohler to step down over Mahaney. Hmm. Both sides have made some serious enemies and the top layers of all of it need to be drained.

@ ishy:
A clue is they say nothing about what they taught before. The CBMW site was positively Mormon before they scrubbed and rebranded. Nor does he do a media hit on Piper for teaching the same. Hmm. Why? Piper was practically a dean at SBTS. It was a cash cow doctrine for 20 years.

ESS is still taught at SBTS even though Mohler has said it was discredited and he didn’t believe it. And churches are still being taking over by deceptive means taught to SBTS students training to be pastors.

I haven’t quite figured out Moore’s end game, but Akin has retweeted some of these things, so they are all in it together. And I do believe there is an end game that involves deceiving people until they sign a covenant at a New Calvinist church. Maybe it goes even farther into The Handmaid’s Tale territory, which is why they are positioning themselves in politics. I just know that they currently do not teach in seminaries what they say they believe in social media.

And I do believe there is an end game that involves deceiving people until they sign a covenant at a New Calvinist church.

I don’t care how many ‘covenants’ you sign, they can’t make you stay at a church. What is the **** point? If you keep people out of fear, they are going to bounce the minute they realize the fear is baseless. And that their friends are not their friends.

@ ishy:
I think it’s to get Patterson out and install an African American as President. I have been calling (as a nobody) for Moore to step down and lobby for an African American to fill his position. That would be a real leadership moment if Moore is serious about what he writes and speaks. Model the opposite of what you are accusing others of doing. But he’s all talk. He should put his money where his mouth is.

Well, there was indeed a nice spread of new routes at the climbing wall. The green 6b+ on route 11 was very over-graded, TBH – 6a+ is more like it. However, the orange 6a+ and the 6b with the pancakes on route 10 were both about right. Couple of new jug-hauls and an interesting-looking 6b+ with the fruit pastilles on 9, which I haven’t tried yet, and a yellow awkward-looking one on 12 that could be interesting.

Oh, and Genuine vs Bayern finished 2-2 on the night, giving Genuine a 4-3 win on aggregate. Tomorrow, we attempt to defend a 3-goal lead away in Rome…

That statement is next to useless. Not only because it cites CBMW, whose whole purpose is to push patriarchy on the world, but because it does not address the elephant I the room, which is ending abusive marriages through divorce.

These guys need to spend some seminary money and bring in a board-certified attorney in family law for a day to explain to them, in clear and concise language, why separation is not always an option. I’d also suggest a competent family psychologist to complement the attorney, to explain to these dunderheads that when it gets to abuse, the absolute best thing for the abused parties (and I include children in this) is to GET OUTabd sever the connection.

I can’t tell you how angry I was with a woman on Twitter who tried to pass off the story of Hagar as instructive in how to handle suffering. First, Hagar was property. Her unborn child was property. And it’s the rare woman who has an angel come to her and tell her to go back to an untenable situation. Finally, I resent the idea that women should stay in marriages like this and suffer for God’s glory. I don’t think God is honored by a wife continually being mentally, emotionally or physically abused.

@ ishy:
I think it’s to get Patterson out and install an African American as President. I have been calling (as a nobody) for Moore to step down and lobby for an African American to fill his position. That would be a real leadership moment if Moore is serious about what he writes and speaks. Model the opposite of what you are accusing others of doing. But he’s all talk. He should put his money where his mouth is.

I think the ERLC needs to be eliminated. It was founded on the belief that Southern Baptists need to “interfere” in politics and uphold the Conservative Resurgence (heard Richard Land speak on that). I still think messing in politics is an aim of Moore and friends, though they are much more moderate in their public tone. I don’t think his aim is really reconciliation or any social justice issues; I think that’s just a way to gain traction.

@ ishy:
They are anything but moderate. If one doesn’t agree with their methods one is harshly and unfairly labeled. I totally agree about the ERLC. It should be eliminated immediately. Todd has written some excellent posts on the ERLC on thouarttheman blog..

Is it common for preachers to tell fictional stories as if they were factual? I’ve discovered that it’s normal to preach someone else’s sermon as if it were your own. These guys have their own set of rules.

We went to a workshop on preaching about evangelism a couple months ago thinking there would be advice and ideas and collaboration. Basically we were told how to mimic someone else’s sermon, complete with stage directions. We were also told that if we didn’t have any good stories of our own we could say, “I knew a guy who said, ‘I….'” and we could pass it off as our own. It was really disappointing, and needless to say we haven’t used any of the material.

Somewhere in his statement he said, “I will never be a party to any position other than that of the defense of any weaker party when subjected to the threat of a stronger party.” Somehow the picture of him killing a beautiful cat doesn’t fit.

Their ball, their court, their stained glass windows, their twisted teaching. Play ball in their court, one follows their rules, which are outside of the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Or leave. Freedom both ways.

“… live by the Spirit, and you will never fulfill the desires of the flesh.” Gal. 5:16.

Example: TWW.
– Dee wrote that nine years ago they didn’t know anyone would read their blog. They posted anyway.
– Dee and Deb post with or without a constituency, what they believe to be true.
– Dee and Deb delete inappropriate comments, and are still not seeking to amass a following. They also allow everyone to post, if appropriate, even if folks don’t agree.
– No money involved – except what they invest themselves here in the Kingdom.

Note: Some have noted that they discerned Hybels’ WCC was off and left before the showdown.

It may have already been mentioned but Paige Patterson is no fan of John Calvin. His end game is anything but theology. I do believe he will step down soon. He won’t be at SWBTS if/when Pressler goes to trial.

Just that horrific shot of him with a glorious wild animal he has killed for no reason, except vanity, is really all I need to know about him & his attitude to the world. Thoughtless ‘dominion’ over all, without care for the welfare of the other.

@ ishy:
I think it’s to get Patterson out and install an African American as President. I have been calling (as a nobody) for Moore to step down and lobby for an African American to fill his position. That would be a real leadership moment if Moore is serious about what he writes and speaks. Model the opposite of what you are accusing others of doing. But he’s all talk. He should put his money where his mouth is.

As with everything, it matters who in particular, or it’s not progress. If it’s the guy who going into T4G reportedly accused everyone of a certain race of complicity in MLK’s death (looking to be the opposite of true witness), pass. The push for diversity in recent NeoCal frontiers looks suspiciously to me to expanding the branding of books, church structure, paying people model, etc. with a ready-made populace.

Inclusion for true Kingdom purposes, absolutely. A rebranding with the same authoritarian business model, no thanks.

Just that horrific shot of him with a glorious wild animal he has killed for no reason, except vanity, is really all I need to know about him & his attitude to the world. Thoughtless ‘dominion’ over all, without care for the welfare of the other.

Yes, leopards eat bunnies – humans eat just about everything. You gotta eat. But killing big cats for ‘sport’ is just vanity, and indicative of a man with a very small, um, sense of self-esteem. Or something.

@ Muslin, fka Deana Holmes:
AS a woman who left an abusive “Christian” husband after 3 decades, I think people in these discussions fail to consider how painful, often dangerous, and difficult it is to divorce an abuser. That same man is likely to lie and deceive about finances, smear the woman’s name, alienate the children of any age.

When the church decides to offer support for the abuser, the survivor often wonders how she will survive-spiritually, physically, emotionally, financially, etc. My “favorite” was when a fellow believer (female) chastised me for taking the “easy out” of divorce.

Life is almost unbearable at times while in the marriage. Getting out of it safely can be its own personal hell at a time she is depleted in every way and worried sick about the unknown consequences of a decision she never dreamed she would be making. Then the re-building begins. If you learn to identify abusers as skilled liars you will be more discerning as situations unfold.

And the average SBC pew sitter knows none of this, they throw their 10% into the plate that they’ve been browbeaten to give not realizing part of their money goes to support this circus.
I wonder if they knew they’d do anything about it?

I’ve been a baptist my whole life. I was raised in baptist churches – SBC baptist.
My father verbally, emotionally, and physically abused my mother for 26 years.
The smartest thing my mom ever did was file for divorce.
The best thing my mom ever did for my dad was file for divorce.

My dad changed his behavior when he learned that : 1) My mom can survive just fine without him, and 2) neither me nor my brother will take any cr@p from him.

I think people in these discussions fail to consider how painful, often dangerous, and difficult it is to divorce an abuser. That same man is likely to lie and deceive about finances, smear the woman’s name, alienate the children of any age.

The same man will also threaten the children and grandchildren, and lie about how mean the wife is to him. Believe me, I know.

And the average SBC pew sitter knows none of this, they throw their 10% into the plate that they’ve been browbeaten to give not realizing part of their money goes to support this circus.
I wonder if they knew they’d do anything about it?

K.D. they either do not no or do not care. I am assuming most in the SBC believe the TAKEOVER of the SBC from the “liberals” allows it leaders to do anything without their questioning.

@ okrapod:
I eventually realized that the birth story everyone wants to have is a normal,healthy delivery without drama or trauma. We were wrong to glorify the “big sinners” as a more spectacular path to new life.

“If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.” (John Piper)

“If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.” (John Piper)

Don’t call the church, CALL 911!

Max: Who are the Biblical leaders that support a woman enduring being smacked for one night? They are monsters IMO.

“If it’s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.” (John Piper)

I have wondered for quite a while……….. what would Johnny boy and his cohorts say if the tables were turned? What if the wife was abusing the husband?

Uhmmmmmmm ………
Dear Owen, et al:
If you bring your children to church, see to them yourself, or hire daycare people. If you plan to have fellowship meals, learn to cook and rinse soap bubbles, or hire a catering service. This subhuman derivative (female) is through playing “roles”.

Uhmmmmmmm ………
Dear Owen, et al:
If you bring your children to church, see to them yourself, or hire daycare people. If you plan to have fellowship meals, learn to cook and rinse soap bubbles, or hire a catering service. This subhuman derivative (female) is through playing “roles”.

I wish every woman in churches where they are subjugated would strike until the men repent of treating them like 2nd class citizens.

And the average SBC pew sitter knows none of this, they throw their 10% into the plate that they’ve been browbeaten to give not realizing part of their money goes to support this circus.
I wonder if they knew they’d do anything about it?

The average SBC pew sitter is either uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant. That latter category of SBC membership is the most unsettling – they keep bringing their tithes and offerings to underwrite bad actors in ivory towers!

@ mot:
Scariest part of all that to me is that coming to the church with the matter next is consider the appropriate next step. Good night! To quote Dee. Lots of women can speak to the “help” they found for abuse at JP’s church.

Just that horrific shot of him with a glorious wild animal he has killed for no reason, except vanity, is really all I need to know about him & his attitude to the world. Thoughtless ‘dominion’ over all, without care for the welfare of the other.

It angers me to no end.
In their world, aggression, violence, and domination are virtues.

@ mot:
Scariest part of all that to me is that coming to the church with the matter next is consider the appropriate next step. Good night! To quote Dee. Lots of women can speak to the “help” they found for abuse at JP’s church. Dreading the next TWW reveal but at least we have the comfort of knowing that LEO are involved.

Older women can rightly inform about dealing with domestic violence and child abuse, also using media. Post, publish, picket, youtube, conference, workshop. Topic: Mature relationships. Too many women who teach have not called out these distortions on behalf of their sisters. (Don’t want to call out the big names, but we all know who the cowardly kool-aid ladies are, not wanting to rock the boat. They teach the Bible but skirt around what is really happening with women and children – in the church, no less.)

Thank God for TWW and for your excellent post. Thank God, also, for men like Mike Phillips and Tim Fall. They are relentless in going after spiritual abuse and upholding truth.

According to my former pastor, the elders would ‘allow’ a woman to leave her abusive husband if the abuse was, and I quote, ‘frequent and severe enough’. This was stated during a fellowship meal, at a table with at least two women who had suffered abusive situations, as his pastor full well knew. Apparently I ‘raised my voice’ as I expressed my disagreement – which I wanted the women at the far end of the table to clearly hear over the din of noisy children.

By that time, I already knew I was gone, but this was just one more nail in the coffin. Who do these men think they are, playing with people’s lives as if it is all about keeping their ‘no divorce’ scorecard clean? When I challenged his comment, he defensively scoffed, ‘Well, if it’s that bad, why don’t they just call the police?’ As if this church and this pastor did not repeatedly urge people to come to the elders rather than look to ‘the state’ for help in times of trouble.

And, just for the record, I suppose everyone here realizes how terribly mistranslated many of the scriptures concerning ‘divorce’ are? What is mistranslated, it seems to me deliberately, is the distinction between ‘putting away’ and divorce. If translated consistently, the English would read that Jesus said ‘God hates (unlawful) putting away’ not divorce, which he acknowledged was permissible, but required the appropriate official papers. The Pharisees had apparently abused the practice of ‘putting away’ which was a sort of ‘mercy’ granted to wives who were discovered to have had premarital sex, and, by law, should have been stoned (as Joseph was planning to ‘put away’ Mary, rather than seek her death). The wife could be ‘put away’, acknowledging her shame and not allowing for lawful remarriage. It was not supposed to be the equivalent to modern no-fault divorce, allowing the men to toss off their wives for a new one on a whim. Jesus was saying that these unlawful ‘putting aways’ were unlawful, and that the parties involved were committing adultery by remarrying without officially terminating their first marriage covenant. The law of Moses – written by God – allowed for divorce when the marriage covenant was broken by one or more party, (not adultery, which called for stoning) but required that the woman be given official papers of divorcement, proving that she was not an adulteress and had the legal right to remarry. The Patriarchal church has been lying about divorce from the get go. As much as God hates broken relationships, he – due to the hardness of sinful hearts – does not demand that people remain entombed forever in miserable, dead marriages, and certainly not in abusive ones.

Here is the hardest part. there are no good guys in this situation including Jonathan Merritt who deceived a church full of people for a big salary. It’s pretty bad when the people outing each other are cut from the same lack of character cloth but looking to score a political win. I have noticed some of these people are totally hands off when it comes to Mohler and CJ.
This is why I don’t do movements or church institutions anymore.

We went to a workshop on preaching about evangelism a couple months ago thinking there would be advice and ideas and collaboration. Basically we were told how to mimic someone else’s sermon, complete with stage directions. We were also told that if we didn’t have any good stories of our own we could say, “I knew a guy who said, ‘I….’” and we could pass it off as our own. It was really disappointing, and needless to say we haven’t used any of the material.

A few years ago – I am sorry to say I don’t remember where – Christians and ex-Christians were discussing this issue. It may have been a blog or forum for Ex-Fundamentalist Baptists??

Anyway, the topic came up a time or two on this site that it is actually a practice among some preachers to fabricate facts or entire stories in the pulpit to jazz up their sermons and add some punch.

We went to a workshop on preaching about evangelism a couple months ago thinking there would be advice and ideas and collaboration. Basically we were told how to mimic someone else’s sermon, complete with stage directions.

Another thing that just crossed my mind about this. A couple of years ago, I was either listening to a Chris Rosebrough podcast or this was on one of his sites –
But he has an example or two of one preacher totally copying off another guy’s sermon, complete with using the same props.

The example that sticks in my memory is one where a preacher was illustrating his sermon points by pouring M & M candy (or rocks? or something) into a jar, but the candy or rocks or whatever overflowed and fell out of the jar.

There was another preacher who copied off that one’s sermon, even down to using the jar and candy prop, pouring the stuff into the jar, etc, to make the same point.

@ ishy:
I can see from the URL that Owen Strachan is involved, so should I click that link and read the page?
Owen Strachan is the complementarian tool who actually criticizes toddler boys for wanting to play with dolls or teddy bears.

Here’s one quote of Strachan from the page you linked:

“He is the Father, not the mother, not gender androgynous. He is God the Father.”

But God the Father and Jesus sometimes described themselves in feminine terms, such as comparing themselves to Mother Birds.

Just that horrific shot of him with a glorious wild animal he has killed for no reason, except vanity, is really all I need to know about him & his attitude to the world. Thoughtless ‘dominion’ over all, without care for the welfare of the other.

I don’t like big game hunters. I actually enjoy these types of stories:

Don’t leopards eat bunnies in nature to eat, where as a chubby loser like Patterson can drive down to his local Kroger’s and buy food? Or drive to a Dairy Queen?

Alas, my last post about this subject is sitting in queue, but to summarize it – I hope if Patterson goes on another hunting trip the leopard wins and eats him, as what has happened to a big game hunter who was torn apart by a pride of lions who he was trying to shoot.

I’ve killed roaches for sport. I even fish and deceive fish into thinking they are in for a treat and they get a hook.

If you are going to kill an animal, any animal, it should be as quick and painless and possible, and you should have a good reason fir doing so. Nothing is stopping Patterson from getting his chubby butt in a car and driving to a McDonald’s for a lunch.

He is not going to starve if he doesn’t kill a leopard. Did he eat the leopard he shot? Probably not. He did it for bragging rights or to look cool in front of other men.

Do you kill roaches to brag about it, or look cool in front of others? Probably not. Your analogy is weak.

As roaches are known to multiply quickly if not kept in check and to carry disease, I could maybe see killing roaches.

But a leopard? Leopards are usually solitary hunters. They don’t breed at the same rate as roaches. They’re not known to carry disease at the same rate as insects or bugs such as mosquitoes or roaches.

I’ve lately been re-reading a book about domestic abusers, and it discusses how many abusive husbands become even more abusive and dangerous when/if they discover their partner is going to leave. Some will even stalk their partner after she’s left.

The smartest thing my mom ever did was file for divorce.
The best thing my mom ever did for my dad was file for divorce.
My dad changed his behavior when he learned that : 1) My mom can survive just fine without him, and 2) neither me nor my brother will take any cr@p from him.

One of the things I don’t see from Southern Baptist (or general complementarian) teachings about all these interwoven topics is the husband being held truly accountable for any abuse he is dishing out.

All these churches ever do is tell the wife in question to stay (they tell her divorce is “unbiblical”), and to pray and submit more. Some might allow separation for a time.

But there is nothing there to penalize an abusive husband, no consequences for his behavior. And the abusers know it – their victim is trapped if she follows these teachings.

One result was that those of us who had been born in the church, grown up in the church and who had no enticing and tingling story of sex, drugs or crime to tell ended up as second class christians who maybe were not even saved seeing that we had to shocking story to tell. Meanwhile the ex-whatevers, the such were some of you with the stories to tell were the stars of the show.

Headless Unicorn Guy and I have mentioned this a few times on this blog in years past.

I also think this sort of tendency has the unintended result of making all the other normal Average Joes watching these sexy testimonies assuming since they are not super bad sinners that Jesus is not for them. Jesus is only for strippers, bank robbers, and other extreme cases.

According to my former pastor, the elders would ‘allow’ a woman to leave her abusive husband if the abuse was, and I quote, ‘frequent and severe enough’.

This is contrary to some of the advice I’ve seen by experts on domestic abuse – they say the first time the guy is violent with you (in the advice they give in the dating stages of a relationship), to LEAVE.

The material goes on to define what abuse is, and it’s not always black eyes, broken ribs, etc, but can entail other things. Abuse usually starts slowly, not all at once.

The books and articles I’ve read said almost all abuse starts out with verbal abuse.

This is contrary to some of the advice I’ve seen by experts on domestic abuse – they say the first time the guy is violent with you (in the advice they give in the dating stages of a relationship), to LEAVE.

I mean, the books advise women to leave pronto, immediately, don’t wait for the abuse to escalate until the guy is getting MORE severe, even more violent, and/or it’s happening more often.

The experts say the longer you wait to get out, the worse it is, and it will be more difficult to leave.

The law of Moses – written by God – allowed for divorce when the marriage covenant was broken by one or more party, (not adultery, which called for stoning) but required that the woman be given official papers of divorcement, proving that she was not an adulteress and had the legal right to remarry. The Patriarchal church has been lying about divorce from the get go. As much as God hates broken relationships, he – due to the hardness of sinful hearts – does not demand that people remain entombed forever in miserable, dead marriages, and certainly not in abusive ones.

One of the things I find very strange about a lot of conservative Christians is that they make things – life, marriage, what have you – more difficult under the New Testament than things were under the Old.

And that makes no sense. Jesus corrected the Pharisees on their legalistic behavior, where they upheld the letter of the law but negated the spirit of the law, that sort of thing.

Jesus said his yoke and burden was easy, but that the Pharisees kept wanting to add MORE burdens and rules on to people’s shoulders – and that sounds just like the Christians today who tell wives in abusive marriages that divorce is supposedly not “biblically” permissible for them.

When you’re making divorce and marriage even more difficult today than it was in the Old Testament, as Southern Baptists and other Christians are doing, something is not adding up.

The Patriarchal church has been lying about divorce from the get go. As much as God hates broken relationships, he – due to the hardness of sinful hearts – does not demand that people remain entombed forever in miserable, dead marriages, and certainly not in abusive ones.

Something else I wanted to add about this.

You realize all these Christian men saying divorce is “always” wrong no matter what would revoke that if it were THEM in some kind of marital trouble?

Years ago, pastor Charles Stanley said he believed and pastor who gets divorced should step down from the pulpit.

But when his wife asked him for a divorce (they did get one), he changed his tune. He fought to stay in his pastor role at the big Baptist church he worked at (and they televise their services weekly).

See, once the doctrine they preach hits them personally, these guys change their tune.

These anti- Divorce guys magically turn into, “I was wrong about divorce, divorce is not so wrong or un-biblical after all!” devotees when divorce happens to them.

You’re looking at God’s fully realized plans for humanity, it’s not some gender androgynous human being, it’s Jesus Christ, He’s the second Adam, He’s the very embodiment of what humanity is to be. -Strachan

Hmm…where does that leave women?

Did we fall short of “what humanity is to be” just by our plumbing?

And what about Mary, mother of Christ?

Did she, too, fall short of God’s “fully realized plans for humanity”?

And what about in Heaven? When everything is all sorted out, do we all turn into men?

Unreal. Does it never occur to them that if Christ spent a good deal [all] of his ministry time emphasizing that all people are valuable to God, they might want to follow his lead a bit here?

“He is the Father, not the mother, not gender androgynous. He is God the Father.”

But God the Father and Jesus sometimes described themselves in feminine terms, such as comparing themselves to Mother Birds.

Despite all their big talk about being scholars, the CBMW people never use the original languages. And as we saw from the ESV 2016, they had no problem intentionally mistranslating (considering Strachan’s father-in-law Bruce Ware was one of the people behind that mistranslation).

And the average SBC pew sitter knows none of this, they throw their 10% into the plate that they’ve been browbeaten to give not realizing part of their money goes to support this circus.
I wonder if they knew they’d do anything about it?

The average SBC pew sitter is either uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant. That latter category of SBC membership is the most unsettling – they keep bringing their tithes and offerings to underwrite bad actors in ivory towers!

Willfully ignorant is my bet….and that pretty much sums up ‘Murica today….

The Patriarchal church has been lying about divorce from the get go. As much as God hates broken relationships, he – due to the hardness of sinful hearts – does not demand that people remain entombed forever in miserable, dead marriages, and certainly not in abusive ones.

Something else I wanted to add about this.

You realize all these Christian men saying divorce is “always” wrong no matter what would revoke that if it were THEM in some kind of marital trouble?

Years ago, pastor Charles Stanley said he believed and pastor who gets divorced should step down from the pulpit.

But when his wife asked him for a divorce (they did get one), he changed his tune. He fought to stay in his pastor role at the big Baptist church he worked at (and they televise their services weekly).

See, once the doctrine they preach hits them personally, these guys change their tune.

These anti- Divorce guys magically turn into, “I was wrong about divorce, divorce is not so wrong or un-biblical after all!” devotees when divorce happens to them.

@ Preacher’s Wife:
While I understand the use of “dramatic license” I can tell you how many time, as a practicing scientist/engineer/medical reseracher, I just cringe at what hear going out of the pulpit. The lack of basic scietific understanding is very depressing… And then pew peons jusy go on to repeat it, thinking they are pious…
Sigh… clearly as pointed out here on TWW, many pasters have very little moder understanding of dealing with abuse…. I have found it is extended to most forms of scientific knowledge..

Lea wrote:
I would not *trust* him though, which is I think what you’re saying. The fact that he hasn’t repented of his former beliefs and actions says something here. But I can’t help but be glad that someone is willing to say what EVERYONE should be willing to say, which is that you are not bound in marriage to an abuser. Period.
I believe he does not believe what he is saying, whether he is lying or he has no belief. Notice he does he not call for enforcement by asking that Patterson step down and relinquish his SWBTS mansion. Whenever issues like this come out (with the exception of politics), Moore might speak out against ideas, but he never speaks out against the
people in the SBC who hold those ideas.

They all look like scum to me. I don’t believe Moore. Such slime.
Patterson should have gone after the comment about the 16 year old. The old guy’s a pervert. Any of these so called leaders who don’t call for his resignation are as bad as him. Wade Burleson’s post was very enlightening.

I agree with those who say the story is a fraud. It is screaming of embellishment if not outright lie.
These are the same people (those responsible for CBMW) when Willow Creek and Bill Hybels became so big scoffed that God didn’t need help to save the lost or something like that. What Patterson did with that story is the same thing. Playing with people’s emotions to get a response.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Yup…. that is exactly what I have observed…. some of this comes from extreme use of the “sola scripture” concept. They start with the premise that the only truth one needs starts with/comes out of scripture…

I just got back from son rowing in a competition at Oak Ridge TN… as a older scientist/engineer, I am VERY familiar with the roll of Oak Ridge in the nuclear revolution… profound truths, both good and bad, comes out of the applications of modern physics… and I see no hint of quantum mechanics, general relativity, particle physics, etc…. yet it has impacted all of our lives directly, or indirectly…. in ways we do not even realize….. yet my bet most clergy have very little understanding of any of this…

@ Lydia:
I am here at Ground Zero also. I still get a kick out of the students calling Moore “mini Mo”. They knew what the relationship was and why Moore was there. And being students found a way to express it that tells it all.

One of the things I find very strange about a lot of conservative Christians is that they make things – life, marriage, what have you – more difficult under the New Testament than things were under the Old.

And that makes no sense. Jesus corrected the Pharisees on their legalistic behavior, where they upheld the letter of the law but negated the spirit of the law, that sort of thing.

Jesus said his yoke and burden was easy, but that the Pharisees kept wanting to add MORE burdens and rules on to people’s shoulders – and that sounds just like the Christians today who tell wives in abusive marriages that divorce is supposedly not “biblically” permissible for them.

When you’re making divorce and marriage even more difficult today than it was in the Old Testament, as Southern Baptists and other Christians are doing, something is not adding up.

You’re looking at God’s fully realized plans for humanity, it’s not some gender androgynous human being, it’s Jesus Christ, He’s the second Adam, He’s the very embodiment of what humanity is to be. -Strachan

Hmm…where does that leave women?

Did we fall short of “what humanity is to be” just by our plumbing?

And what about Mary, mother of Christ?

Did she, too, fall short of God’s “fully realized plans for humanity”?

And what about in Heaven? When everything is all sorted out, do we all turn into men?

Unreal. Does it never occur to them that if Christ spent a good deal [all] of his ministry time emphasizing that all people are valuable to God, they might want to follow his lead a bit here?

My gosh.

Jesus is the stumbling block. He was to those who make up rules and doctrines not in the Bible or fairly representative of the Bible 2,000 years ago—and He still is today to their theological progeny.

Have you ever seen arguments about the difference between “sola” and “solo” scriptura? It shows the extremes some people will go to. “Solo Scriptura” is linguistic nonsense. It’s an argument based on ignorance. Much like CBMW arguments.

Oh, goodness, Oak Ridge. I spent two weeks there for a specific continuing ed course when I was pursuing the stamp on the forehead so we could open a little nuclear med lab at a hospital where there was none. It was kind of awesome just being there, and sad that at the time they had to resort to little courses like I was taking where once history had been made.

Okay, enough with the sentimentality.

But yes to your earlier comment. Some of the ridiculous comments from some folks in churchianity about ‘science’ are pathetic. I want to say that those of us who may know just a little something are painfully aware of how little we know; so how is it that those who know basically nothing cannot figure out how little they know.

Churchianity is a chronic degenerative disease which cannot be cured and which, unlike some physical chronic degenerative diseases, apparently cannot even be controlled or even ameliorated.

Jesus still cannot be controlled. There are several ways to manipulate scripture and make head roads in controlling the message. Those in Jesus’ day who tried to either control or manipulate or discredit him are now merely bad examples for other people.

@ okrapod:
Unfortunately, the museum at Oak Ridge has a “tired” look to it….. and they tore down the K25 plant, so the “special” feeling is fading into the past…. to some, I guess that is a good thing..

One of my biggest issues with sermon borrowing is that the preacher is not allowing himself to be affected by the text at all. Reading and studying a new text in depth each week should make a profound impact on the speaker. But if they just borrow ideas and outlines, they are short-changing themselves and eventually their lack of character will catch up with them.

@ okrapod:
“Churchianity is a chronic degenerative disease which cannot be cured and which, unlike some physical chronic degenerative diseases, apparently cannot even be controlled or even ameliorated.”

This is depressing. But at the same time can be a positive when we face it. At least it’s voluntary.

@ okrapod:
Churchianity is a business… which readily embrasses many of the current “best practices” of American capitalism/business…. I have seen the exact same thing at the Big U over the last 30 years…..

There’s a beautiful scene in Les Mis (the book) where the priest steps over a spider and says, “Poor thing, he can’t help that he’s ugly.” We try to save the bugs in our house and put them outside. It wasn’t until after the flood that animals began to fear humans and humans began to eat animals. In the garden Adam names the animals. You don’t name food, you name pets. It makes Adam and Eve’s leather clothing after the fall that much more tragic. Because of sin, creation is broken and leopards eat bunnies. Just like because of sin, patriarchy exists. It’s there and in some situations (such as carnivores) it can’t be helped. But shouldn’t we be working towards New Creation instead of settling into the curse? And no, I’m not a vegetarian. Yes, I get the hypocrisy. Yes, I know Jesus ate fish and lamb.

The way people treat animals and nature, things that are objectively weaker and lesser than humans, will tell you a lot about how they will treat people they perceive as lesser than themselves.

Quoting Patterson:
“who is undergoing genuine physical abuse from her husband, and her husband says she should submit”
“Genuine” abuse? What is “genuine” abuse? And why limit a woman to physical abuse only?

The goal is to minimize, and define abuse down to the tiniest sliver of physical abuse that resulted in major damage or hospitalization so they can ignore the rest and pretend like it’s ‘she accused me of abuse because I left my socks on the floor’, which is a thing I saw on twitter yesterday.

If they get to define abuse, they get to make all the decisions. Which is something like abuse, come to think of it.

@ drstevej:
And your comment on the epistles raises further questions, We do not fully understand what the problems that the epistles were attempting to address… note I say “fully” before some one jumps on me and quotes the verse of Paul going after the man sleeping with his father’s wife..

I want to say that those of us who may know just a little something are painfully aware of how little we know; so how is it that those who know basically nothing cannot figure out how little they know.

This is where I go back to the handy little lesson I got in business school that there is

Basically we were told how to mimic someone else’s sermon, complete with stage directions.

Wow, I know this sort of thing is going on, especially with the ARC-type guys. I just didn’t know it was being encouraged [and taught!] at conferences.

In the secular world, it’s called plagiarism, and it can get you fired from a job or kicked out of school. It’s similar to making up stories and presenting them as fact to illustrate your point and make people follow your advice.

Some of these guys have developed their own code of ethics. The same guys who would preach loudly against situational ethics and moral relativism. And really, these offenses are so minor, compared with other things that Patterson is accused of.

The shot with that magnificent leopard makes me sick. I know some places in Africa actually fence in the animals so the big boys can snare a trophey. If that is how he got that creature its a pity. For the animal. Anyway I was just sitting here thinking of all of the big name Christian teachers who have been called out the past few years for either tolerating abuse or themselves abusing others. Lets see…quite a list. Mahaney, Piper, Savage, Patterson, Hybels, Gothard, that guy from Vision Forum….the list goes on and on by the day The WORLD looks better than these guys. I work with unbelieving men who have more respect for me than these guys do. I have worked for years in the secular world who understand abuse and would not tolerate what these guys do/teach/believe with a few Bible verses tacked on. I just cant take it anymore.

There was an article I read yesterday in Christianity today (maybe) basically saying there is a whole ‘don’t talk bad about people even when they are terrible’ deal going on in SBC, although Patterson is allowed to talk about people. It was ridiculous.

big name Christian teachers who have been called out the past few years for either tolerating abuse or themselves abusing others. Lets see…quite a list. Mahaney, Piper, Savage, Patterson, Hybels, Gothard, that guy from Vision Forum….the list goes on and on by the day

The organized church is full of teachers, but not many preachers (there’s a difference). Lord, we’ve got enough teachers – it’s easy to find one that will tickle your ears. We need preachers of the Gospel (real ones) … and evangelists – those are rare and endangered.

There was an article I read yesterday in Christianity today (maybe) basically saying there is a whole ‘don’t talk bad about people even when they are terrible’ deal going on in SBC, although Patterson is allowed to talk about people. It was ridiculous.

I certainly can not prove it, but I have wondered how many men’s careers in the SBC have been harmed when they dared to criticize Patterson.

There was an article I read yesterday in Christianity today (maybe) basically saying there is a whole ‘don’t talk bad about people even when they are terrible’ deal going on in SBC, although Patterson is allowed to talk about people. It was ridiculous.

TGC talks bad about people outside their little club all the time. Silence on those within the club who do terrible things. There’s a couple others can think of who say horrible stuff about people but lose it when rightly confronted for their bad behavior. Very troubling stuff.

There was an article I read yesterday in Christianity today (maybe) basically saying there is a whole ‘don’t talk bad about people even when they are terrible’ deal going on in SBC

I just read the CT article. While I’m not a fan of Ed Stetzer because of his link to SBC’s New Calvinist movement, he nails it on the head when he says of folks like Patterson: “In the aftermath of the Conservative Resurgence, the SBC made a mistake. We spent more time taking victory laps than really leading. We let our history become mythology. We turned men into heroes, and then we turned our heroes into gods.”

And then we immortalized those icons on stain-glass windows! But we are now finding out they aren’t gods at all – they were human and they sinned (some sinned really bad!). The hall of fame is becoming a hall of shame.

Yep, I agree with Stetzer that Dr. Patterson is done, but just hasn’t quit yet. I join him as he says: “Thank you, Dr. Patterson, for your service … Thank you for thinking first of the SBC as you step into a well-earned retirement.”

As a side-note, TWW’s frequent readers will love this line from the article regarding Patterson’s upcoming appearance at the SBC annual meeting: “If Patterson preaches at the SBC, he will, because of his past work, get a STANDING OVATION.”

Some will get there, Max. Lies take the elevator to get there first. Truth takes the stairs but eventually lands on top and does its job, dissipating the lies. (From Friday to Resurrection Sunday. Jesus won.)

I suspect they are like sharks, they smelled blood in the water with Patterson, and weakness, and see the opportunity to bite.

Just as Patterson and Pressler did when they routed the liberals and moderates from the SBC. You reap what you sow, more than you sow, later than you sow.

As a side-note, look for Mohler to maneuver a hand-picked New Calvinist replacement into Patterson’s place at SWBTS when the big-game hunter retires. Some future shift in SBC theology will then treat Mohler and his lieutenants the same. The beat goes on. The once-great SBC is largely over.

Yeah, that was a tongue-in-cheek thing. Dr. Patterson would do well to bail out before the SBC annual meeting in June. But he is narcissistic enough to show up for one final standing ovation from his admirers.

@ Max:
You think Setzer was thinking about what Mohler did at Southern. Or how he made money from different businesses while he had a full-time job planting failed churches at Lifeway. All of these guys are big frauds who are speaking out now.

Remember Setzer could not even do a funeral of a church member where he pastored. He didn’t do Hospital visits. He was too important and had to spend his precious time working on his sermon. Because as you know their sermon is the most important event of the week.

This is who I think is working with Russell Moore to take down Patterson. He was a protege of Patterson and then went to work for Wade before going to DC. If I remember correctly he was the initiator of the recording. This recording was passed around in the wild west days of the internet.

This is who I think is working with Russell Moore to take down Patterson. He was a protege of Patterson and then went to work for Wade before going to DC. If I remember correctly he was the initiator of the recording. This recording was passed around in the wild west days of the internet.

As a side-note, TWW’s frequent readers will love this line from the article regarding Patterson’s upcoming appearance at the SBC annual meeting: “If Patterson preaches at the SBC, he will, because of his past work, get a STANDING OVATION.”

The shot with that magnificent leopard makes me sick. I know some places in Africa actually fence in the animals so the big boys can snare a trophey. If that is how he got that creature its a pity

It’s called a “canned hunt” or “canned safari”, and violates a major tradition of REAL big-game hunting: The quarry must have a reasonable chance of escape, and the hunter must be in actual danger from the quarry.

I know a couple hunters.
Patterson is NOT Great White Hunter — he’s a WANNA-BE.
And REAL hunters would hold such a Wanna-Be in absolute contempt.

And never mind Leopards — of the five Big Game animals of Africa, the absolute most dangerous is the Cape Buffalo. When Great White Hunter faces down a Cape Buffalo on foot with no “canned hunt” protections, THEN I’ll believe he’s a hunter.

@ mot:
Not sure who Cole works for now. Started with one of the old singing Senators. My guess is DC. It’s all about timing and patterns. Cole has been going after Patterson since old blogosphere days. Baptist blogger. If it’s not pass protected. He goes through phases. Used to have hilarious stuff about Patterson including pics of his deceased dog’s fancy human sized tombstone buried on seminary property. He was the one who dubbed Dorothy, Hyacinth Bucket.

and I see no hint of quantum mechanics, general relativity, particle physics, etc…. yet it has impacted all of our lives directly, or indirectly…. in ways we do not even realize….. yet my bet most clergy have very little understanding of any of this…

Perhaps if a serious effort were made to make this stuff accessible to lay-people, the clergy might sing a different tune.
And no, I am not suggesting dumbed-down versions.
I believe there’s a big difference between accessible and dumbed-down.

i do remember Benjamin Cole at that time, thinking there was potential there for great consequence (of some kind). but that it was for a time in the future while he went ‘incognito’ (so to speak) for a while (working from the outside).

….that was about the time i first encountered the word ‘male headship’, proffered to me as a wonderful thing by pastor of 2nd Church of Dysfunction (along with loaning me the enormous ‘Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood’ for my light reading enjoyment).

“What in the world….”, i thought to myself. so i started digging around trying to find out “what is this weirdness? what parallel universe have i just beamed into?”

I soon found Wade Burleson’s blog, where I learned of the shenanigans perpetrated by the entity known as SBC. Then found TWW not long after.

turns out this parallel universe has been steadily replacing my former reality as this gender role weirdness grows like mold. (did i mix metaphors, there?)

but i’m thankful for those sober enough to push back. unlike so many naive church leaders of all backgrounds so easily taken in.

it really is like a science fiction movie:

1 parallel universe expanding into its counterpart and replacing it with itself, but the true heroes having muscled their way into the hairs-breadth line between the 2, and are pushing with all their might, one hand on each side projecting the force of bulging biceps and triceps like hercules, separating the 2 realities to stop the advance of the invading universe.

So, Roma vs Liverpool kicks off in an hour. This, AWWBA, is the second leg of their GiveUsYerMoney Cup semi-final, with Liverpool 5-2 ahead from the first leg – so, a 3-0 win for Roma would put them through on away goals. In their quarter-final against Barcelona, they lost the first leg (in Barcelona’s Nou Camp stadium) 4-1. And won the home leg 3-0, to go through on away goals.

I’m one of those nervous sports fans who can’t bear to watch when their team is playing a big match. I am therefore removing myself from almost all media until later tonight.

The way people treat animals and nature, things that are objectively weaker and lesser than humans, will tell you a lot about how they will treat people they perceive as lesser than themselves.

Or, as Sirius Black put it:

If you want to know what a man’s like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.

I realise Sirius Black isn’t real; but the sentiment behind the quote goes back a long way. It’s a question of whether [generic] you respect someone whom you have nothing to gain by respecting. One might even say… Whoever can be trusted in a small thing, can also be trusted with much… And by the way, mind and give to people who can’t repay you. (I paraphrase.)

@ Muff Potter:
I do know of some attempts….. in many ways it is a chicken-egg issue… how to convince pew peons and pastors of the importance of science/engineering to both practical aspects and philosophical/ spirital aspects of life. If there is a demand, the system will respond..
I am actually quite upset with the more general lack of appreciation of science, and scientific methods in our society, and demagogs taking advantage of this ignorance… while Deepak Chopra is not a “demogog” he took advantage of this ignorance…. IMHO he really mischaracterized Quantum mechanics…

And this guy is in the highest position with the SBC? I have little confidence in SBC men of influence. Power, control, fame, followings, it all gives them an illusion that they are “serving God.” Self-deceived.

My view is that they already own it all and the eating of each other has begun. You don’t have to go too far back to find many instances of Patterson and these other people in cahoots until somebody got angry about something. All the guys who used to protect Patterson are now dead or just too old or marginalized to matter. Adrian Rogers, Charles Stanley, Pressler, etc. The famous Patterson airport meeting guys listed in Joel Gregory’s book.

I don’t believe in coincidences. And every last one of them needs to remember that we all get old. Maybe someone will pull a Paul Debussman on Mohler. What comes around goes around.

Uhmmmmmmm ………
Dear Owen, et al:
If you bring your children to church, see to them yourself, or hire daycare people. If you plan to have fellowship meals, learn to cook and rinse soap bubbles, or hire a catering service. This subhuman derivative (female) is through playing “roles”.

I wish every woman in churches where they are subjugated would strike until the men repent of treating them like 2nd class citizens.

How are we supposed to take these men seriously any more? Talk about a person we would never have heard of it is wasn’t for his father-in-law. This guy was supposed to be so smart. He came highly recommended by none other than Mark Dever. He didn’t even see the heresy of ESS. He was supposedly brilliant? These guys get paid to think! I guess he still holds on to the nonsense of ESS. In the interview he pushes back against men and women both being made in the image of God. From the ESV (the super duper translation?)
Gen 1:27 “So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.”
Like I say, he appears to be very shallow in his thinking. Or maybe deceptive. I know that isn’t out of the question.
So much of what is taught coming for SBTS is really very shallow and the guys there prove themselves very shallow. None of them could see what a huckster CJ Mahaney really was. Now the whole world sees it and they can’t bring themselves to say what everyone sees.
Moore says submission of women is “a gospel issue”. That is just nonsense. What does it have to do with a man or women being saved? All of them appear to be very shallow in their thinking and not all that bright. They keep up the charade in hopes no one will notice.
The emperor has no close.

Did you do it for no reason but to pose with it to show how very virile & amazingly manly you are? If so, yes 🙂 If you travelled abroad & spent a load of money to do this, double yes. Pat yourself on the Y chromosome.

“He is the Father, not the mother, not gender androgynous. He is God the Father.”

But God the Father and Jesus sometimes described themselves in feminine terms, such as comparing themselves to Mother Birds.

Despite all their big talk about being scholars, the CBMW people never use the original languages. And as we saw from the ESV 2016, they had no problem intentionally mistranslating (considering Strachan’s father-in-law Bruce Ware was one of the people behind that mistranslation).

Well, colour me completely unimpressed. Deliberate cruelty for the sake of feeling superior is just pitiful. There’s enough cruelty & oppression in the world without wilfully adding to it. How does that correspond with the fruit of the Spirit, by the way?

And this guy is in the highest position with the SBC? I have little confidence in SBC men of influence. Power, control, fame, followings, it all gives them an illusion that they are “serving God.” Self-deceived

Remember Setzer could not even do a funeral of a church member where he pastored. He didn’t do Hospital visits. He was too important and had to spend his precious time working on his sermon. Because as you know their sermon is the most important event of the week.

Modus operandi for New Calvinists. But they’ve got plenty of time to tweet their lives away in coffee shops.

I have so many, many things to say, but I don’t even know where to begin – though I think a lot of it speaks for itself, and suffice to say I agree with all the good and profound insight as always that is offered here.

P.S. For those who don’t know as I am a sporadic commenter here and don’t usually give my background when I post: I recently, within the past few years, left the SBC and particularly seminary at SEBTS. I was on an academia track and…well, nope. Had to leave. Couldn’t reconcile and live and operate in their academic and church world anymore.

A lot of my leaving the SBC had to do with my bad personal experiences as a woman in those circles, and the social psych and larger theological and philosophical structures for women that I found and experienced as extremely troubling amd contradictory.

But, I also left for a lot of other theological and ideological personal reasons.

I could write a book about all of it. I’m using pretty much my real name here – except I literally “cutt” off the last part of it. 🙂

The whole thing, the whole culture of it, grosses me out. This is their idea of Christianity? It’s nothing more than a club, and a deeply dysfunctional one at that, where they will not call each other out, publicly or privately, on what ought to be serious matters of conscience.

Nothing to worry about here folks, let’s just forget Grudem’s assurances…”This created order is also best for us, because it comes from an allwise Creator. This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.” (Biblical Foundations for Manhood and Womanhood)

About leopards, I’ll never forget hearing one one night while camping in the Cedarberg mountains in the Western Cape region in South Africa. I woke up and heard what sounded like someone sawing wood – in the middle of the night, in the bush, not too far from my tent. That was the leopard! What a privilege to hear it. They are elusive creatures and on the vulnerable species list. I hope Dr P. leaves them alone in future or decides to leave his gun at home and rather shoot with a camera.

By the way, Nick Bulbeck, the Cedarberg is excellent for climbing, if you ever decide on an African adventure. Amazing rock formations and rock paintings, too.

AND IF: John 4:24-26 KJV – God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

AND IF: the doctrine of the Trinity went to great ends to be sure that the Second Person of the Trinity was declared to be both human and also divine, not some hybrid of the two; pre-existent as not human but rather the Word

How then is God the Father male as a human male is male seeing that God the Father is not human. And if the idea of male is not a sexual/gender definition then what is it?

It is correct that God is not a female; also not a male or a chicken. Only in the humanity of Jesus does one see material being (as opposed to spirit) with the attributes of man; and the counsels have been quite clear that God is not man and man is not God and Jesus was not a hybrid but rather both.

S and W are making it up to suit themselves. One wonders if the object is to make too much of human maleness as compared to divinity or if the object is to not have to deal with the concept of spirit.

That Person who was both God and man (do not miss ‘both’ or ‘and’) said that what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. It is cringe worthy to hear people bypass spirit in a rush to validate flesh.

Humans are in the image of God in spirit, needing to be born of Spirit to renew the original plan and redeem the disaster of separation between God and man. What a pity to overlook that with excessive preoccupation with the human body and its genitals; makes one wonder, frankly, about those who get fixated on this. I want to say to them ‘get your hand out of your pants; you will not find the image of God in your underwear’.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Anything goes as long as Souls(TM) get Saved(TM).
Prioritizing the Great Commission over the Great Commandment. Sigh.

And to Save(TM) Souls(TM) takes your hard-earned dough. “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs.”
On March 28, 2018, Patterson wrote:
“August of 1928, a sad month for Southern Baptists, was the date when it was discovered that Clinton S. Carnes, trusted treasurer of the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, had quietly pilfered $909,161 from the treasury of the Home Mission Board. Southern Baptists were humiliated; the Home Mission Board was virtually bankrupt; missionaries were left without pay; church funds were cut off; and, doubtless, lost people who could not get the message of Christ certainly trooped into hell.”
People (maybe your grandmother) are in hell right now suffering eternal (a very long time) conscious torment– not because a Calvinist god predestined it, nor due to any sin or unbelief of their own, but because a scoundrel absconded with a boatload of cash from the Southern Baptist Convention. Let that thought sink into our minds when we think about what Patterson is teaching future pastors.

Stetzer is trying to isolate Paige Patterson’s words and actions without dealing with the systemic creation and enablement of him, the bigger picture and history of the modern SBC that goes beyond just Patterson.

It’s all so very convenient. And the exact opposite of prophetic, which is what we’re supposed to believe he’s being.

@ Bridget:
Fundamentalist and evangelicals have a obsession with gender and sex……. and it really does predate the sexual “revolution” of the 1960’s…. it is interesting to go back and look at Dantes “Inferno, and the nine rings of hell…. the most inner rings are not sexual, in fact I would argue some of the stuff that TWW reports on would fall into these inner rings…
Now, we can all debate the validity of Dante’s work; however it does show that the focus on specific “sins” can vary over the centuries..

I’ve just totally given up on the SBC. I remember when we believed simple things like salvation upon repentance and accepting Christ, eternal security with lost rewards for those foolish enough to choose a sinful lifestyle, and soul competency. Churches actually were autonomous and you could get your mouth metaphorically washed out with soap calling it a denomination. It was a loose cooperative of individual churches. And we were allowed to use our brains.

Just tried to return to it. Cannot abide not being treated as an adult due to being female. Cannot abide this endless focus on defining and limiting God rather than a life truly walking in relationship with Jesus. Cannot and will not put up with much younger folks (aka the pastor)wanting to judge if we are saved or not, with a persnickety attitude that screams “and I doubt you are” when we have been saved longer than he has been alive. Had that attitude the first day he met us, and we are “poster child” SBC types.

BUT the Church is alive and well. Been welcomed into another equally conservative group, more about a relationship with Jesus than with splitting theological hairs and deciding who is in and out on that basis. Treated like adults without being sidelined for being seniors.

Thank you SBC for what you taught me 50 years ago. Call if you ever return to it.

And just to prove that – my thought and immediate feeling after posting that is “Oh. Shoot. If certain people read here and see I wrote that I might get an email about it that they’re upset I would say such a thing.” Even though I’m not in their world anymore, that immediate social conditioned thought is still there.

Because it is also not socially advantageous in other/non-Patterson SBC circles to be that directly disagreeable with Ed Stetzer.

@ Lea:
Stetzer is trying to isolate Paige Patterson’s words and actions without dealing with the systemic creation and enablement of him, the bigger picture and history of the modern SBC that goes beyond just Patterson.
It’s all so very convenient. And the exact opposite of prophetic, which is what we’re supposed to believe he’s being.

Thank you! So many are using this to virtue signal and rebrand. Where were they in 2007 or so when this recording was discussed as nauseum and making the rounds on different sites but nada from leaders who are now so concerned? No way did those guys like Moore teach divorce ok for abuse! Why NOW does Patterson disgust them and have to be removed? Why does WaPo care about what a redneck baptist elderly Seminary President said 18 years ago?

(Wonder what the new recruiting power grab fad will in 5 years? . Talk about being tossed to and fro)

The flag by my name is very appropriate for this discussion. More than a decade ago we lived for more than two years very close to the commune described here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casalesi_clan. I did not now about the New Calvinists, the SBC intrigues, and the Conservative Resurgence back then. But we were very familiar with the ways of the Camorra – not a fun place to live. When I started to read about New Calvinism a few years ago and saw all the connections it reminded me more of the mob than anything else I could think of. In the area were we lived integrity was not valued. What was valued was keeping quiet. Sound familiar?

@ okrapod:
Bravo. Great comment. Back when I used to debate comp doctrine a lot, that was my go to. As in, what is spiritual equality? (Not outcome) They need the image of God to be flesh oriented or none of it works. It’s a spiritual construct and it doesn’t work with total depravity (inability), either.

“I want to say to them ‘get your hand out of your pants; you will not find the image of God in your underwear’.”

I only know of his name through studying the Conservative Resurgance and SBC history. My dad was born in Huntsville, Tennessee area and moved up to the Midwest with his family as a yoing baby/toddler. You don’t find as many with the name above the Mason Dixon line.

Keep doing the two things that that the SBC forbids: think and speak for yourself. The truth is slowly leaking out. The SBC is only one court case or major news story away from irreversible damage and embarrassment. Stetzer will one day regret kissing up to Patterson and thanking him. You’ll be seen as a genius.

You make the assumption that Paige didn’t completely make up the story about the abused woman whose husband came to Christ. Frankly I think the whole thing is suspicious, and I would not trust Paige to tell the truth.

Because it is also not socially advantageous in other/non-Patterson SBC circles to be that directly disagreeable with Ed Stetzer.

I quoted Patterson in a 4:03PM comment currently in time out. I forgot the link https://swbts.edu/news/releases/open-letter-southern-baptists/
The open letter was ostensibly about Frank Page (not Paige–I suppose this Page was a Southern Baptist leader of the 19th century, since other SBC leaders have utterly forgotten he ever existed). But Patterson also says:
“In more recent time, when the Ashley Madison list of those willing to compromise their marriages went public in 2016, one “prophet” predicted that hundreds of Baptist churches would be pastorless in only a few days.”
Now, the only suspect I saw predict hundreds (at least 400, to be precise) of leaders would resign the following Sunday was Ed Stetzer. (I’ve still not seen Stetzer walk back his prediction.) So I assume the mystery “prophet” Patterson is lambasting is Stetzer, and there’s some animosity between them.

The TGC and CBMW abd others took on David Instone Brewer, Hebrew Scholar, as a heretic because he showed that divorce for neglect is in the OT. Articles written, shame administered, cries of unbiblical! etc.

Now, Russ Moore is claiming the same? Seriously? Maybe we can wait another 5 years to see what else they change in what they teach that people shouldn’t listen to now. Sheesh.

@ Lydia:
Found an article from 2012 where moore mentions ‘legal protections’ but seems to be talking about prison, not divorce.

He does say “We must stand with women against predatory men in all areas of abandonment, divorce, and neglect.” But that sounds like the husband has divorced the wife? He certainly never is clear, which is part of the crazy making advice given to women on this by men who ‘can’t counsel divorce’. Why the h e double hockey sticks not guys???

@ Lea:
Most of it appeared on CBMW which was the repository for all things patriarchal. But the site was scrubbed and rehabbed. It’s even hard to find his Henry Institute paper that is quite a doozy trashing comp as not patriarchal enough and chiding men who ask their wives if they can attend Promise keepers. Don’t ask. Tell her.

These guys are diabolically deceptive but not stupid.

My rule for changing what you taught for years is to publicly state what you taught wrong and why. The reason is because they approached it dogmatically. It was the Gospel. It was “biblical”. Disagreement was unbiblical or heresy along with all their slippery slope declarations.

Most of it appeared on CBMW which was the repository for all things patriarchal. But the site was scrubbed and rehabbed. It’s even hard to find his Henry Institute paper that is quite a doozy trashing comp as not patriarchal enough and chiding men who ask their wives if they can attend Promise keepers. Don’t ask. Tell her.

And just to prove that – my thought and immediate feeling after posting that is “Oh. Shoot. If certain people read here and see I wrote that I might get an email about it that they’re upset I would say such a thing.” Even though I’m not in their world anymore, that immediate social conditioned thought is still there.

It’s not only chickens who peck the Defective to death in the barnyard.

Paige is probably more concerned about the upcoming Pressler trial than anything else right now. I’m sure lots of lawyering taking place right now. Gotta save those two stained glass windows.

Oh yes. Puts Mahaney on backburner. It’s going to be interesting how Mohler, Moore and others reposition themselves as barely part of the CR contingency after milking it for fame and position. Patterson has plenty of lawyer help. He sure used them against other people enough!

@ Lydia:
Lydia you may not be aware that I actually run projects out on my local British streets to help young people – like those in Rotherham, 10 – 18yrs of age- recognise & exit from various forms of grooming, that of Child Sexual Exploitation, of grooming into drug running & into coercive & violent peer relationships. Me & my team are those working to ensure this never happens again. I teach Stay Safe skills to those targeted as particularly vulnerable alongside this. My team are who they ring if scared or in trouble. It was also people in my profession – Youth Work – that first raised this as a problem to the authorities, a good decade before it was actually taken seriously. I can’t over-emphasise how much you are preaching to the converted here :), as well as how seriously this problem is taken in current day Britain. But I’d love to ask for prayer for funding as we are trying to get last year’s projects funded again, & extended into many neighbouring areas.

But I’d also like to note, that whatever point it was you were trying to make about Rotherham, cruelty to children does not excuse cruelty to wildlife. They sadly co-exist, all part of the terrible things people do to other sentient beings. I make absolutely no apologies for caring about both.

As a non inner circle woman I generally felt like an object or abstraction to them. Something to either ignore or project onto. Not an equal. Or as someone to get to know or discover as a unique individual, made in the image of God just as much as them. Not all the men were like that. But that was my norm experience.

This feeds into emotional and intellectual timidity, self-doubt and suppression for women when you are interacting in that world. Moderate to severe impostor syndrome is likely as well. Which wouldn’t just show up in the academic world persay, but in any sphere of the church you are interacting.

There are so many social norms, spoken and unspoken at play, for women. And it gets in the way of Jesus being your true and direct access mediator, and the Holy Spirit your first source of help.

It’s not just the overt statements from Paige Patterson that are the problem. It’s the covert sexism and control for women that can make things confusing and hard to address in their world.

There are a lot of varying degrees of beliefs/in-groups and social hierarchies in the SBC, which is what humanity has always done when they get into groups. It often gets in the way of soul competency, liberty of conscience, and fearless independent thinking.

@ emily honey:
Stay out of that circle. Run from morons who actually believe they are superior to you and won’t treat you as an equal. There’s nothing Christian about all of this junk we see and hear today. Leave the SBC and don’t look back.

There wasn’t anything advantageous in it for them to speak up about it then.

There is so much darkness and dark history in the SBC with women and abuse. This has always been a terriffying problem. Many people, as mentioned, have tried to talk about this culture way before now and were dismissed. So now it’s a problem because it became a national embarrassment? And now it’s being dealt with because so and so male celebrity leader decides it is time to?

The time to deal with it was yesterday, and yesterday, the time to deal with it was the day before that. And so on. No time for politics or positioning or patting backs. And the people to lead the discussion and be at the center are the women who have been victims of this horrible counsel and advice over the years in the SBC.

***

Also, I’m not following Ed. You’re essentially saying that Paige Patterson is a manipulative and intimidating person, which is disqualifying for ministry – let alone for such an influential position as a seminary president.

But we’re supposed to celebrate and commend him as honorable? Which one is it?

Keep doing the two things that that the SBC forbids: think and speak for yourself. The truth is slowly leaking out. The SBC is only one court case or major news story away from irreversible damage and embarrassment.

There is so much darkness and dark history in the SBC with women and abuse. This has always been a terrifying problem. Many people, as mentioned, have tried to talk about this culture way before now and were dismissed.

Oh. By that I mean most women aren’t near the center of power or influence in the SBC, or rather closely connected to the men that are. Whether through her job, position, opportunity, spouse, relationship/friendship, etc. The small number of women in the inner circle tend to have different experiences and priveleges than most of us who operate and live outside it.

* tells abused women to suck it up and submit more
* protects sexual predators
* kills exotic animals for no reason other than to exude macho man image
* major player in takeover through secrecy and scheming
* spends tons of money for stained glass false idols and securing himself a nice retirement home …….

That Person who was both God and man (do not miss ‘both’ or ‘and’) said that what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. It is cringe worthy to hear people bypass spirit in a rush to validate flesh.

Humans are in the image of God in spirit, needing to be born of Spirit to renew the original plan and redeem the disaster of separation between God and man. What a pity to overlook that with excessive preoccupation with the human body and its genitals; makes one wonder, frankly, about those who get fixated on this. I want to say to them ‘get your hand out of your pants; you will not find the image of God in your underwear’.

Wow. On point and razor-sharp.

Some folks live their lives between their jaws (consumption), others between their legs, or between their ears (heady), or lips (words) or hands (if your hand [might, power] causes you to stumble…). In Christ walking in the Spirit, our high calling is loving God, and loving our neighbor as self. Love.

Relegating to a lower class is not “loving neighbor as self.” Patriarchy is the flesh.

I was thinking more in terms of priorities on what is “disgusting and cruel”. Had the human traffic barbarians been trophy fishing actual young girls would have been spared from being human trafficking victims over many years while law enforcement and social services looked the other way to be PC and not “profile” There should be a huge reckoning on what has been allowed to take place for so long to so many girls with heads rolling. But there won’t be because….PC. My position is humans first. Especially children.

Thank you! So many are using this to virtue signal and rebrand. Where were they in 2007 or so when this recording was discussed as nauseum and making the rounds on different sites but nada from leaders who are now so concerned?

WHAT Recording, Comrade?
IT NEVER EXISTED, AND TO REMEMBER IT DID IS DOUBLEPLUSCRIMETHINK!

@ Lydia:
I’m going to be honest Lydia, I’m happy with my priorities. I’ve spent 25 years helping vulnerable & challenging children & young people, & helping animals at the same time. I used to be a Hunt Sab (look it up) & am in my 19th year as a vegetarian. A lot of people in the caring professions for people care for animals too.

The Political Correctness that got in the way in Rotherham is no longer in power there. I also feel that although the term ‘PC’was properly used in that case, it is chucked out in all sorts of ridiculous circumstances, for eg my dislike of trophy hunting is not PC, it is basic human decency. It is used, like lots of Christianese, to shut down discussion & shame people into accepting things that are actually unacceptable.

I also think the implication that unless the right thing is done in one place, children in Rotherham, it somehow means we should hold off doing the right thing in another place where cruelty occurs is ludicrous. I know the Rotherham case has been used in the US to bolster all kinds of erroneous conclusions about culture in the UK, so it’s probably helpful for you to be speaking to someone who deals with the equivalent young people in a different area of the UK, who is mindful of lessons learned. Sadly I have no power to bring charges in the Rotherham area, or I would…the best I can do is ensure no professional around me does the same thing.

It’s even hard to find his Henry Institute paper that is quite a doozy trashing comp as not patriarchal enough and chiding men who ask their wives if they can attend Promise keepers. Don’t ask. Tell her.

This is such a false dichotomy…There is a middle ground where you have a grown up discussion about what you’d like to do and see if it fits into the family schedule. Stuff like this is so irritating.

Cruelty to animals is often a sign that other forms of cruelty exist within a person.

I do not taking hunting as a sign of this, in and of itself. I know many who hunt but they do not torture animals to do so. I don’t like this kind of hunting that Patterson has done, but I’m not sure if it fits on that dark spectrum or not. I think I would need more information.

As a non inner circle woman I generally felt like an object or abstraction to them. Something to either ignore or project onto. Not an equal. Or as someone to get to know or discover as a unique individual, made in the image of God just as much as them. Not all the men were like that. But that was my norm experience.

This is so sad. This is why, although abuse can certainly exist in egalitarian spaces or by men who profess to be so, I will not accept that comp thought is not a part of the problem. Because it reduces women, categorizes them, as ‘other’. And that is never good, historically.emily honey wrote:

This feeds into emotional and intellectual timidity, self-doubt and suppression for women when you are interacting in that world. Moderate to severe impostor syndrome is likely as well.

I have a couple friends, husband and wife, who announce their graduate education as “Master of Divinity from SBTS…before the crazies took over.”

Whether an SBTS graduate is a New Calvinist or not in their theological persuasion, they will be identified as such under the Mohler years (post-1993). SBTS is now commonly referred to as ground-zero for New Calvinism, with many young pastors graduating from there known by their stealth and deception to plant reformed theology in non-Calvinist churches; they will have trouble finding ministry positions when the NC bubble breaks.

And the people to lead the discussion and be at the center are the women who have been victims of this horrible counsel and advice over the years in the SBC.

Yes. 100%

But it wont’ happen in an org where women are not valued. Which is the problem to began with! A circle. SBC needs reform and they need to change their ideas about women and unless/until that happens this will never be fixed.

WHAT Recording, Comrade?
IT NEVER EXISTED, AND TO REMEMBER IT DID IS DOUBLEPLUSCRIMETHINK!

It is crazy making to hear the defenders of Patterson try to pretend that this is ‘taken out of context’ or being misstated/lying about the man. NO. He said it, it’s on tape. You tell them its on tape, and they run away. They can’t deal with the reality of it honestly.

If we condone the toleration of domestic abuse, how is that not similar to the early christians who sought martyrdom to the extent that the church had to forbid them to do that. Every easter the media shows us people who get themselves literally nailed to a cross as a religious act and we disapprove; can we then turn right around and approve if people accept domestic violence as a religious act of endurance. I don’t know why people unnecessarily embrace suffering, but I do see how embracing suffering when it is unavoidable can be the best way to deal with it. I have a stage 4 cancer, and I see a lot of people in the same situation over at the cancer treatment center. It is not something religious, but accepting suffering and seeing that some good can come out of it is just plain common sense, and I see them over there at the center doing that.

I know we have had our differences, but it saddened me to read that you have stage 4 cancer.

@ Law Prof:
This would be a huge portion of my extended family who were, thankfully, out of there by the late 80s. At one time Southern had one of the most well-respected Music Conservatory style programs in the region. Al Mohler got rid of all of it.

They just say they graduated before Mohler took over and ruined the place.

It is crazy making to hear the defenders of Patterson try to pretend that this is ‘taken out of context’ or being misstated/lying about the man. NO. He said it, it’s on tape. You tell them its on tape, and they run away. They can’t deal with the reality of it honestly.

“To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself—that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word—doublethink—involved the use of doublethink.

“The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them… To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.”
— George Orwell, “The Principles of Newspeak”, appendix to Nineteen Eighty-Four

I do see how embracing suffering when it is unavoidable can be the best way to deal with it. I have a stage 4 cancer, and I see a lot of people in the same situation over at the cancer treatment center. It is not something religious, but accepting suffering and seeing that some good can come out of it is just plain common sense, and I see them over there at the center doing that.

I don’t know why people unnecessarily embrace suffering, but I do see how embracing suffering when it is unavoidable can be the best way to deal with it. I have a stage 4 cancer, and I see a lot of people in the same situation over at the cancer treatment center. It is not something religious, but accepting suffering and seeing that some good can come out of it is just plain common sense, and I see them over there at the center doing that.

I thought you were picking a fight over something that many decent people consider an acceptable sport.

There is nothing lovely, just, of good report, or acceptable about trophy hunting.
Nor can it be considered a ‘sport’ when you (generic you) consider the odds and whose favor they’re stacked in.
My opinion?
Decent folks need to recheck their moral compasses if they are still doing it.

Yes, every jot and tittle of the annual SBC Convention will be broadcast live … except the closed door, smoked-filled meetings of the elite who make all the decisions for the denomination, while the thousands of SBC messengers coming from across America think they are.

IRONY. Yesterday we were discussing the ethics of fishing. Then I found out that a dear pastor friend (age 86) was drowned on a fishing trip in the gulf. Please pray they will find his body. For a number of years he worked with Billy Graham.

@ Muff Potter:
We’ll have to agree to disagree and you are more than welcome to think I am immoral. I went deep sea fishing once and was indisposed the whole time. 🙂 But I am not going to put deep sea trophy fishing on par with a pedophile.

But I am not going to put deep sea trophy fishing on par with a pedophile.

And nor has anyone else here, so it’s great we all agree on this.@ drstevej:
I hope they find him, what a terrible thing for his family. One of my Grandmothers drowned on holiday on Antigua & it took quite a while for her body to be found. awful stuff.

We’re talking two different things Lyds.
When I was a kid I fished Lake Michigan for perch, and off the Calif. coast for rock-cod, both are fantastic eating, deep-fried or charcoal grilled!

The pic of Patterson making a trophy of that magnificent cat is immoral and sinful.
I stand on my comment and conviction.
And no, I do not think you’re immoral, quite the contrary, I consider you one of the most moral people I’ve ever encountered online.

Paige Patterson sits on the Board of Trustees at Cedarville University where PP mentee Thomas White is President. PP should be dismissed as a trustee but that most likely will not happen. Many of the Bible faculty at Cedarville hail from SWBS as well. Buyer beware.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And leopards are not only the worst-tempered of the big cats, they’re one of the most likely to go man-eater (and if they do, they become one of the most dangerous man-eaters).
I always heard that Tigers were most likely to be a man-eater. But it’s been a while since I looked at stats..

Tigers may be more likely, but leopards are the most clever and dangerous ones.

My source for this is Jim Corbett’s Man-Eaters of Kumaon, circa 1930s. Corbett was a professional hunter in India from the Twenties to the Forties specializing in man-eater removal.

I’m not sure Jesus was a trophy fisherman tbh, or that those fish went uneaten.

Trophy Hunting/Trophy Fishing is more a recreation of the Rich and Powerful than the poor and powerless. From massive Hunts being “the sport of Kings” (after the real sport of kings, War) to high-priced canned hunts for big $$$$$, it’s a privilege of rank for those with money and leisure.

I am staunchly anti-abortion.
When I read a factual account of a late term abortion, I shook and cried.
I got a little taste of what a Jewish Sonderkommando saw when he* shoveled his own grandkids into a crematorium incinerator at Auschwitz.

For you, not me. I stand by my belief that fishing, or any kind of hunting/harming/killing for any less than necessity isn’t okay. Trophy hunting is not okay. I don’t care who does it or how decent they are in every other way. And it’s okay for me to believe that, & express it.

If Dr Steve doesn’t like it, let him say so, rather than veering off into rants on the kind of abused kids I spend my life listening to & helping out, & the rest.

@ Bridget:
The disgust lecture was specifically to Steve about trophy fishing. A bridge too far.

Going back in the thread it seems he’s the one that egged it on. He shared his pursuits. Beakerj shared her opinion about it. It didn’t seem like a lecture to me. It appeared you were the one that brought up trophy fishing, unless I missed some comments, which is possible . . .

Massive difference between trophy hunting and fishing – the main one being that you eat fish. We eat deer. We eat ducks and turkeys. We eat squirrel (well, not me but somebody). Paige isn’t eating a tiger.

I’m not a vegetarian, although I respect Beakerj’s position on that. But she’s not the one who brought up fishing.

There are more reasons to send some animals on to the next world than merely food reasons. Overpopulation. Epidemic diseases. Destruction of the environment beyond what will sustain the species, individuals turned man killers like we keep seeing from India, predation on domestic species which cannot be otherwise controlled, and there is always David and the bear and the lion. Some of the real biologists who comment here can add to or modify the list.

Predation itself is an integral part of nature as it is, and as difficult as that is for humans to watch none the less there it is. Either God included predation in the original design or else evolutionary change is true, but either way predation is a fact of life. It is not by any means the whole issue, but it is one variable. And yes, I audited a course in population genetics at NCState back in the day and this is where I am coming from. I am not pretending to be any authority, but I did not totally forget everything from that course-that is all.

Man is one of the predators. Sometimes man acts wisely, sometimes he almost exterminates the bison unwisely.

I am not advocating cruelty at all. But there is a time to be born and a time to die-always and everyone and everything.

There are more reasons to send some animals on to the next world than merely food reasons. Overpopulation. Epidemic diseases. Destruction of the environment beyond what will sustain the species, individuals turned man killers like we keep seeing from India, predation on domestic species which cannot be otherwise controlled, and there is always David and the bear and the lion. Some of the real biologists who comment here can add to or modify the list.

I would consider all of that necessity. I just cannot get my head around people finding pleasure in harming or killing animals for other reasons outside of necessity. Same reason I find testing make-up on animals appalling, but just about can see why some medical testing might need to be done.

You’re always such a wise woman 😉 Joking aside, I always value hearing from someone who has done so much at the coal face of human suffering, such a huge education in realism, My Mum was Nurse for 47yrs & was the same way. I pray for you what I prayed for her – that God would give her what was needed to face the medical issues she had with fortitude & endurance, & still find joy in life.

Well, colour me completely unimpressed. Deliberate cruelty for the sake of feeling superior is just pitiful. There’s enough cruelty & oppression in the world without wilfully adding to it. How does that correspond with the fruit of the Spirit, by the way?

Lydia – I didn’t use the word disgusting. These were the strongest words I used after DrSteve decided to bait me with unnecessary instances of practices he & his friends engage in that inherently involve animal suffering, from wounding, to being eaten alive, to living in captivity. And I’m the one who’s ‘OTT’? It’s very strange to me that I seem expected to choose to oppose EITHER animal or human suffering, when actually you can oppose all forms of pointless cruelty, & as Christians I think we should. I find it utterly obscene that Paige Patterson & his ilk spend vast sums of money to go to Africa & kill beautiful creatures for the sake of his ego. And that’s because it is obscene. How many kids could that money have helped?

What if someone here used the words I used after a graphic yet jocular description of casual cruelty to babies or the unborn? Okay then?

In case you didn’t catch it, being not from around here, the thing about a tiger was the mascot at LSU. And I’m pretty sure he has a palatial palace much bigger than a zoo. (so yes, baiting or joking, one)

Also, he’s a rescue tiger. The university says “By providing a home for a tiger that needs one, LSU hopes to raise awareness about the problem of irresponsible breeding and the plight of tigers kept illegally and/or inappropriately in captivity in the U.S. ”

@ Lea:
My dad is a Southern Baptist minister and he has never mistreated women! He would never condone one being abused either. Of course, he preaches in a small country church and is not one of the “elites”. The retirement for SBC pastors sucks and he is having to continue to work. The denomination itself cares nothing about its’ pastors.

@ Lea:
Thanks Lea, being a Brit it meant absolutely nothing whatsoever to me. Consider those comments struck from the record. I applaud the University for their stance & hope he/she lives a fantastic life. I love those films where you see a rescued big cat take their first steps on grass, or their first swim.