I spoke with the ATF directly last month and discussed this. Their response was that modifying a 50+ year old firearm to SBR/SBS removes it's C&R status and is manufacturing a "new" firearm.

Correct, it removes the C&R status as far as the feds are concerned. The feds do not care if a shotgun is C&R, not C&R, or built as an SBS from the start. They only want your $200. An SBS is not illegal on the federal level.

__________________"If Jesus had a gun he would be alive today"-Homer Simpson

Correct, it removes the C&R status as far as the feds are concerned. The feds do not care if a shotgun is C&R, not C&R, or built as an SBS from the start. They only want your $200. An SBS is not illegal on the federal level.

Either way, they have been denying these requests from CA for a few years now.

ATF does take the state of origin into consideration and won't approve requests from states where it may conflict with federal law.

And for CA...
BATFE NFA Branch will not approve a Form 1/4 for a SBR/SBS, unless the applicant has a valid Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS from the CA DOJ BOF.

BATFE NFA Branch will approve a Form 4 for a C&R SBR/C&R SBS because a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS is not required.
Making a C&R rifle/C&R shotgun into a SBR/SBS, makes it a "modern" SBR/SBS and requires a Dangerous Weapons Permit.

__________________

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

And for CA...
BATFE NFA Branch will not approve a Form 1/4 for a SBR/SBS, unless the applicant has a valid Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS from the CA DOJ BOF.

BATFE NFA Branch will approve a Form 4 for a C&R SBR/C&R SBS because a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS is not required.
Making a C&R rifle/C&R shotgun into a SBR/SBS, makes it a "modern" SBR/SBS and requires a Dangerous Weapons Permit.

If I can take my C&R shotgun with an interchangeable 24" barrel and change it out for an 18" barrel it is still C&R right?

__________________"If Jesus had a gun he would be alive today"-Homer Simpson

If I can take my C&R shotgun with an interchangeable 24" barrel and change it out for an 18" barrel it is still C&R right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quiet

And for CA...
BATFE NFA Branch will not approve a Form 1/4 for a SBR/SBS, unless the applicant has a valid Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS from the CA DOJ BOF.

BATFE NFA Branch will approve a Form 4 for a C&R SBR/C&R SBS because a Dangerous Weapons Permit for a SBR/SBS is not required.
Making a C&R rifle/C&R shotgun into a SBR/SBS, makes it a "modern" SBR/SBS and requires a Dangerous Weapons Permit.

Do you happen to know under what authority the ATF cites in denying a California Form 1 without a Dangerous Weapons Permit? I thought they used to grant Form 1's despite CA law?

The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 CFR § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

__________________"If Jesus had a gun he would be alive today"-Homer Simpson

ke6guj, what are your thoughts on paying for an NFA item only from a bank account setup in the name of the trust? There seems to be some split on other NFA forums I've been poking around on. Check coming from NFA Trust v personal credit card, etc.

__________________
You think you know, but you have no idea.

The information posted here is not legal advice. If you seek legal advice hire an attorney who is familiar with all the facts of your case.

Has anyone ever run across a C&R SBS for sale? I constantly search the online auction sites and short of a Marble Game Getter, I never see them for sale. I'd really like an Ithaca Auto-Burglar (AOW) or an 870 SBS, but those seem to be vaporware. I guess they probably don't come up for sale in Internet auctions too often. Probably have to scour brick and mortar auction houses.

__________________
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ke6guj, what are your thoughts on paying for an NFA item only from a bank account setup in the name of the trust? There seems to be some split on other NFA forums I've been poking around on. Check coming from NFA Trust v personal credit card, etc.

I personally have never heard of any issues with someone using personal funds instead of trust funds to pay for an NFA item or the payment to BATFE. That said, I can only assume that there is a good reason that the NFA lawyers prefer that you use trust funds.

the ATF ruling says that it applies to .mil firearms (note that that ruling was in 1985 when many .mil firearms weren't 50-years old yet and were being imported as curios, not at relics). ATF has taken the position that it applies to domestic C&Rs as well and just send back your Form 1 saying that you need a DW permit for a modern SBx.

If you want a newly-modified C&R SBx bad, I guess you could sue ATF to approve your Form 1. That will probably be the only way to get this fixed.

the ATF ruling says that it applies to .mil firearms (note that that ruling was in 1985 when many .mil firearms weren't 50-years old yet and were being imported as curios, not at relics). ATF has taken the position that it applies to domestic C&Rs as well and just send back your Form 1 saying that you need a DW permit for a modern SBx.

If you want a newly-modified C&R SBx bad, I guess you could sue ATF to approve your Form 1. That will probably be the only way to get this fixed.

I'll kick in $20 to get someone going on the lawsuit thing. Won't be me thats for sure.

No more C&R SBS's will be made until they change their mind. Regardless of what some read/interpret the law as who aren't inking up my next tax stamp.

the ATF ruling says that it applies to .mil firearms (note that that ruling was in 1985 when many .mil firearms weren't 50-years old yet and were being imported as curios, not at relics). ATF has taken the position that it applies to domestic C&Rs as well and just send back your Form 1 saying that you need a DW permit for a modern SBx.

If you want a newly-modified C&R SBx bad, I guess you could sue ATF to approve your Form 1. That will probably be the only way to get this fixed.

Taking a position and following the law are two different things.

__________________"If Jesus had a gun he would be alive today"-Homer Simpson

Guess what... Let's get the party started. I will have a few C&R NFA 870s, 37s, 12s, and possibly some other models in the very near future. Knowing that I have this shipment coming, I am more willing to let go of the 870 SBS that I have in stock. These were not easy to get, but finally we have them coming! I will post in the commercial section.

Guess what... Let's get the party started. I will have a few C&R NFA 870s, 37s, 12s, and possibly some other models in the very near future. Knowing that I have this shipment coming, I am more willing to let go of the 870 SBS that I have in stock. These were not easy to get, but finally we have them coming! I will post in the commercial section.