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than for the secretary-- was a guy namedsamcloviswhowas a right wing radio talk show host from iwhat hofs cochairman of his campaign, who had no background in science, much less agricultural science at all. there's a sense either trump himself or people in their orbit actually think the government runs itself or if we neglect it maybe it will all fall apart like we want it to, or shrink like we want it to. it's not clear what. it feels like ineptitude. it feels like no plan rather than plan. >> rose: there was surprising news overseas this week. it wasn't anything that happened on the president's trip. instead it was the royal purge that took place on saturday in the kingdom of saudi arabia. david ignatius is a columnist for "the washington post." he has also covered national security in the middle east for that paper for more than 30 years. >> 32 years old, head strong, bold, very much unlike the traditional saudi, careful leader has set his course on modernization first. he wants to change the kingdom. he wants to allow women to drive. he wants to allow women to attend public

than for the secretary-- was a guy named sam clovis who was a right wing radio talk show host from iwhat hofs cochairman of his campaign, who had no background in science, much less agricultural science at all. there's a sense either trump himself or people in their orbit actually think the government runs itself or if we neglect it maybe it will all fall apart like we want it to, or shrink like we want it to. it's not clear what. it feels like ineptitude. it feels like no plan rather than...

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. what we're seeing with manafort and papadopoulos andsamcloviswhowas a foreign policy advisor but not a guy with a huge amount of expertise in foreign policy, but sornlings what we're seeing is a side effect of the nature of trump's campaign. he could not get the best people in republican politics. he could not get the top shelf foreign policy advisors so ended up with carter page, a guy who claimed to be an oil executive but actually works out of shared office space at trump tower, and papadopoulos who is a guy who falsified his credential on his resume which shows you the actual level of qualification. he's not a heavy hitter but one of the five who the campaign put on its foreign policy committee at an early stage and was clearly empowered to be working on behalf of the campaign in setting his foreign policy and what we'll find out is how much the other trump officials, the senior officials on the campaign knew about his intersections with and conversations with russians. >> stewart: it shown a light that jeff sessions misremembered again. >> yeah, you know, sessions has been t

. what we're seeing with manafort and papadopoulos and sam clovis who was a foreign policy advisor but not a guy with a huge amount of expertise in foreign policy, but sornlings what we're seeing is a side effect of the nature of trump's campaign. he could not get the best people in republican politics. he could not get the top shelf foreign policy advisors so ended up with carter page, a guy who claimed to be an oil executive but actually works out of shared office space at trump tower, and...

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hands full with that investigation. >> and there's been some political fallout.samcloviswhowill been knowledge fluctuated by the president to -- nominated to be chief scientist but was an aide on the campaign and in these documents was seen to be encouraging papadopoulos to continue communicating with the russians. he withdrew his nomination this week. >> he did. he was scheduled for a hearing for his nomination i believe next week and that would have been turned into a whole russia hearing so he wanted to get out of it. more importantly, he didn't have scientific credentials to do the job. he was nominated to be the chief scientist with no scientific background. he will be staying in the administration as a senior white house advisor at the agriculture department. >> what message was the white house sending when they nominated with no scientific experience to be the chief scientist? >> he is a guy from iowa so maybe they figured he knows farm issues and agriculture. but more importantly he was a loyal advisor on the campaign and this is a government and administration that cares a l

hands full with that investigation. >> and there's been some political fallout. sam clovis who will been knowledge fluctuated by the president to -- nominated to be chief scientist but was an aide on the campaign and in these documents was seen to be encouraging papadopoulos to continue communicating with the russians. he withdrew his nomination this week. >> he did. he was scheduled for a hearing for his nomination i believe next week and that would have been turned into a whole...

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the change in greater detail. former trump campaign officialsamclovishaswithdrawn as the nominee for chief scientist at the department of agriculture. he wrote to the president today, saying the political climate "has made it impossible... to receive balanced and fair consideration." clovis faced criticism for a lack of science credentials, and for ties to george papadopoulos. he's admitted lying about contacts with russian intermediaries last year. the president's former campaign chair, paul manafort, attacked the evidence against him today in a probe of russian campaign meddling. his lawyers said the case is "embellished." manafort appeared in federal court in washington with associate rick gates. they face a 12-count indictment including conspiracy and money laundering charges. the president is pressing for the death penalty, for the attacker in tuesday's truck rampage in new york. overnight, and again today, mr. trump tweeted that sayfullo saipov should get the death penalty for killing eight people. but in manhattan, mayor bill de blasio said he does not believe the

the change in greater detail. former trump campaign official sam clovis has withdrawn as the nominee for chief scientist at the department of agriculture. he wrote to the president today, saying the political climate "has made it impossible... to receive balanced and fair consideration." clovis faced criticism for a lack of science credentials, and for ties to george papadopoulos. he's admitted lying about contacts with russian intermediaries last year. the president's former...

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know -- we know mueller's people have been questioning the people in that room.samclovis, whowas papadopoulos' campaign supervisor, was before the grand jury a week ago and had to resign -- pull back from his nomination to be at usda this week as a result of these disclosures. but mueller has some answers about what trump's response is, and i think that's very critical. >> i would just say i think that the march 31st meeting is extremely important, but i think the key to all of this is looking at it from what happened after papadopoulos was informed by this russia-linked professor that the russians had these thousands and thousands of e-mails that they said came from hillary clinton's campaign. when he essentially learned that the russians had dirt and they wanted to give it to the trump campaign. after that you saw a consistent effort by papadopoulos to reach out to high-level members of the trump campaign, apparently not j.d. gordon and jeff sessions because they shot him down but to paul manafort, corey lewandowski, to pitch this trump/russia meeting. why did he want the presi

know -- we know mueller's people have been questioning the people in that room. sam clovis, who was papadopoulos' campaign supervisor, was before the grand jury a week ago and had to resign -- pull back from his nomination to be at usda this week as a result of these disclosures. but mueller has some answers about what trump's response is, and i think that's very critical. >> i would just say i think that the march 31st meeting is extremely important, but i think the key to all of this...

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clinton. and he will tell you that when he communicate that had to his supervisor,samclovis, anotherco-chair of the trump campaign, that mr. clovis suggested that they send someone low level to russia to communicate with the russian government. who did they send? carter page who will testify that he traveled to russia and met and interacted with officials in the russian government. you will also hear that the president's son, donald trump jr., met with a representative of the russian government. she came and she offered dirt on hillary clinton, e-mails on hillary clinton, and you will hear in the same conversation, he told her they would reconsider their sanctions against the russian government. you will also see evidence of messages between him and wikileaks which is connected with the russian government. a foreign intelligence service. all of that evidence taken together will prove that there is a conspiracy to involve the russian government in our election. and i will ask you at the end of the trial to return a verdict of guilty on all counts. >> there you have some argu

clinton. and he will tell you that when he communicate that had to his supervisor, sam clovis, another co-chair of the trump campaign, that mr. clovis suggested that they send someone low level to russia to communicate with the russian government. who did they send? carter page who will testify that he traveled to russia and met and interacted with officials in the russian government. you will also hear that the president's son, donald trump jr., met with a representative of the russian...

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department if you're working for donald trump? the example issamcloviswhodonald trump nominated to be the head of science in the department of agriculture. most people may not even know there's a department of science in the department of agriculturement they spend roughly $3 billion a year making grants to researchers, most of the research is related to climate change, how to grow food or raise livestock in a different climate. this is research that will have a big effect on how we're living in 50 years. if it's done well, it's important. the person who ran this during the obama administration was a woman who spent the better part of a 50-year career as an agricultural scientist and was exquisitely familiar with the job she was given. her whole life had prepared her for it. the guy trump puts in is a right wing radio talk show host who has no science at all in his background, this guy clovis. >> and now has withdrawn his name. >> just withdrew his name. >> if there's this pattern in the administration, the government doesn't do anything, so we can put anybody -- they dump these

department if you're working for donald trump? the example is sam clovis who donald trump nominated to be the head of science in the department of agriculture. most people may not even know there's a department of science in the department of agriculturement they spend roughly $3 billion a year making grants to researchers, most of the research is related to climate change, how to grow food or raise livestock in a different climate. this is research that will have a big effect on how we're...

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last night i was predicting -- it doesn't feel like a prediction, thatsameclovis' nominationprobably withdrawn and probably when the president's plane is somewhere around the pacific. and one of the reasons is that now that we know he's part of the special prosecutor's investigation, now the e-mails are ve vealed in the documents and cooperating with the special prosecutor, one of the things i said is, of course, senator stabnow, the top democrat on the agriculture committee, the staff would be writing questions starting last night about. and so senator stabenow sent this letter to sam clovis today with these questions. one of the questions is a what we assumed it would be last night. it is, it has been reported that you have been contacted and interviewed by the special counsel as part of its investigation. is this true? if so, if so, have you cooperated with these inquiries? how's that for question one of a confirmation hearing? >> if he goes to the hearing, imagine him sitting there getting the follow-up question which is did you receive immunity for your testimony because if he d

last night i was predicting -- it doesn't feel like a prediction, that same clovis' nomination probably withdrawn and probably when the president's plane is somewhere around the pacific. and one of the reasons is that now that we know he's part of the special prosecutor's investigation, now the e-mails are ve vealed in the documents and cooperating with the special prosecutor, one of the things i said is, of course, senator stabnow, the top democrat on the agriculture committee, the staff...

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understandingclovis' interactionswith george papadopoulos whom he supervised. so he is the unnamed supervisor in the documents we saw and told by papadopoulos about the overtures from russians. and his story according to az lawyer, he did not approve any -- for example a trip that papadopoulos was proposing to go to moscow and talk off the record with russians but that is kribl contradicted in an e-mail where he says take the trip if it's feasib feasible. >> ken dilanian, i had so much more to talk about but the social media hearing is heating up. adam schiff is talking right now. let's listen. >> content that is either fear based oran anger based that hel it pick up an audience and go viral. manipulation but also just in terms of the agree to which these algorithms designed to attract our attention and keep our eyes focused on platform for advertising purposes may also have the unintended consequence of widening divisions among our society, polarizing people because what ends up perk latding the top of our feeds tends to be things we were looking for and kamt tour attention to a g

understanding clovis' interactions with george papadopoulos whom he supervised. so he is the unnamed supervisor in the documents we saw and told by papadopoulos about the overtures from russians. and his story according to az lawyer, he did not approve any -- for example a trip that papadopoulos was proposing to go to moscow and talk off the record with russians but that is kribl contradicted in an e-mail where he says take the trip if it's feasib feasible. >> ken dilanian, i had so much...

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advisersamclovishaswithdrawn because he's implicated in this other investigation, but no background in the science. in the regulatory -- in the departments, facts are being ignored. >> you know, i find from a journalism point of view donald trump is a brain-eating disease. he does so many outrageous things on a daily basis. he talked about sam clovis, this guy appointing to head the agriculture department, $3 billion research budget, an iowa talk show host, shows such contempt for science and the department. as a journalist or columnist you think, how can i not write about that, it's so outrageous? if i write about it every week i don't go out and learn all these other things. it's a danger that donald trump is going to suck the brains out so of many reporters and columnists, you spend four years being outraged at him, and you can't even keep track of them. >> i don't want to explode your brain but last night telling the south korean assembly about the woman who won the lpga at -- >> trump course. >> trump course, of course. he's being investigated about some outside grou

adviser sam clovis has withdrawn because he's implicated in this other investigation, but no background in the science. in the regulatory -- in the departments, facts are being ignored. >> you know, i find from a journalism point of view donald trump is a brain-eating disease. he does so many outrageous things on a daily basis. he talked about sam clovis, this guy appointing to head the agriculture department, $3 billion research budget, an iowa talk show host, shows such contempt for...

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grand jury.samclovisisan important actor. earlier when he said he was going to leave behind as he heads for this 12-day, master trip to asia. his top economic adviser gary kohn, he joked and said if taxes don't get done while i'm away, and he wants the house bill to be passed by thanksgiving and he wants these tax cuts to be on his desk by christmas. so the president obviously very focused on taxes right now as he has these private briefings preparing for the asia trip where the focus will be obviously heavy on trade and on north korea, more broadly. white house officials say they do hope this provides him an opportunities to focus on agenda items, on issues where they think he appears strong and where he's most confident on taxes and north korea. ittal lo allows them to ignore on twitter. >> we expect in less than a minute to have that tape of his comments. thank you for sharing that with us, peter. the president likely not able to go forward with that agriculture nominee who is so caught up in this investigation. >> they're adding all kinds of trouble with their nominees across

grand jury. sam clovis is an important actor. earlier when he said he was going to leave behind as he heads for this 12-day, master trip to asia. his top economic adviser gary kohn, he joked and said if taxes don't get done while i'm away, and he wants the house bill to be passed by thanksgiving and he wants these tax cuts to be on his desk by christmas. so the president obviously very focused on taxes right now as he has these private briefings preparing for the asia trip where the focus will...

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job at the department of agriculturesamclovisannouncedhe's withdrawing his name. he confirmed he has no -- not just limited -- no background in hard science or agriculture. the white house said in a statement they respect clovis' decision. a source tells nbc news robert muell mueller's team interviewed him last week. >> and clovis is one of the people whose names have something to do with george papadopoulos. there's that relationship. reporter ken delaney has been doing work on this. what are you hearing about this withdrawal and what does it have to do with? >> does it have to do with free press? >> it was already a controversial nomination. but this is clearly related to the revelation that he figures keenly in the mueller investigation. and this stems from his conversation and his e-mails with george papadopoulos. you know, he was not named in the papadopoulos plea agreement, but quickly his lawyer confirmed that he was the campaign supervisor who said great work to papadopoulos when he was e-mailing him about his contacts with russian officials and a possible meeting between

job at the department of agriculture sam clovis announced he's withdrawing his name. he confirmed he has no -- not just limited -- no background in hard science or agriculture. the white house said in a statement they respect clovis' decision. a source tells nbc news robert muell mueller's team interviewed him last week. >> and clovis is one of the people whose names have something to do with george papadopoulos. there's that relationship. reporter ken delaney has been doing work on...

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namedsamclovis, whowas national co-chair of the trump campaign, chief policy adviser to the trump campaign, sam clovis last week met with robert mueller's investigators. and nbc news reports tonight that sam clovis has also testified to the grand jury in this investigation. so if the trump white house decides they want to keep distancing themselves from people who have turned up in the russia investigation, distancing themselves from sam clovis is going to be particularly difficult, given not only that he was a national co-chair of the campaign but also that they have nominated him to a senior position at the u.s. department of agriculture for which sam clovis is supposed to face senate confirmation next week, which is probably going to be very, very awkward now. joining us is joyce vance, former state attorney for the state of alabama, thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me, rachel. >> so reading this document tonight that was unsealed by the court, this is a representation -- first there's the warrant, then there's the terms of confinement under which gates and manafort

named sam clovis, who was national co-chair of the trump campaign, chief policy adviser to the trump campaign, sam clovis last week met with robert mueller's investigators. and nbc news reports tonight that sam clovis has also testified to the grand jury in this investigation. so if the trump white house decides they want to keep distancing themselves from people who have turned up in the russia investigation, distancing themselves from sam clovis is going to be particularly difficult, given...

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businesses in russia.samclovisaskedcarter page to sign an nda. and a few months later he told sam clovis he was going to moscow. he did not tell him not to go. when he got back, he briefed sam clovis, as well as a number of other officials on the campaign about his trip to russia. >> what you make of carter page? >> you know, carter page is another team member who was eager to use his relationships with the russians to help the trump team. and he even was asking the trump campaign what he should say when he was over there in russia. and just like george papadopoulos, he was trying to arrange a meeting between donald trump and vladimir putin. now this is a theme that we've seen throughout the campaign team. not just papadopoulos. remember, felix seder back in december 2016 is telling michael cohen if we can get donald trump and putin together, we can engineer this and make our boy president there is a theme of trying to get dirt on hillary clinton, trying to connect donald trump and putin. and of course failing to disclose it to anyone. >> there is a reporting today saying there is

businesses in russia. sam clovis asked carter page to sign an nda. and a few months later he told sam clovis he was going to moscow. he did not tell him not to go. when he got back, he briefed sam clovis, as well as a number of other officials on the campaign about his trip to russia. >> what you make of carter page? >> you know, carter page is another team member who was eager to use his relationships with the russians to help the trump team. and he even was asking the trump...

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today is thatsamclovis, whowas the nominee for a top science position which he was arguably not qualified not being a scientist in the ag department, is not going to be up for a hearing. that nomination withdrawn. he's been under quite a shadow because we've reported, kim delanian of our team, reported he is the unnamed supervisor with george papadopoulos. the question would be, what did you know about russian contacts? what did papadopoulos tell you as the supervisor? >> reporter: that's right, andrea, and that is a big part of the reason why this, of course, has been derailed, although i will also say there was a story in the "washington post" this morning, the paper obtaining a letter in which clovis admitted in questions from some of the senators that he didn't have nyack dem i can or scientific credentials at all, and that, of course, this position was as the top scientist at the usda. so a conflue nernce of factors there. we have reported that clovis has spoken to special counsel mueller about all of this russian meddling investigation, and that he is potentially involved.

today is that sam clovis, who was the nominee for a top science position which he was arguably not qualified not being a scientist in the ag department, is not going to be up for a hearing. that nomination withdrawn. he's been under quite a shadow because we've reported, kim delanian of our team, reported he is the unnamed supervisor with george papadopoulos. the question would be, what did you know about russian contacts? what did papadopoulos tell you as the supervisor? >> reporter:...

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some exclusive reporting thatsamclovis, theformer co-chair and policy advisor for the trump campaign was questioned by mueller's team last week, testified before the investigating grand jury. what's his connection to all of this? >> good morning, craig. sam clovis is an iowa politician and a former pentagon official who's playing a senior role in donald trump's campaign. he was supervising george papadopoulos, the man who pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi and is now cooperating. nbc news has learned that clovis was summoned by robert mueller's office for an interview and subsequent grand jury testimony where he was asked about his interactions with papadopoulos. his story, according to a statement by his lawyer to us yesterday is that he did not encourage papadopoulos to make a trip to russia to have an off-the-record meeting with russians. now, that seems to be contradicted by an e-mail that was released in the papadopoulos case where clovis says make the trip if feasible. now, clovis is not mentioned in the e-mail, but we've campaigned that the campaign supervisor referen

some exclusive reporting that sam clovis, the former co-chair and policy advisor for the trump campaign was questioned by mueller's team last week, testified before the investigating grand jury. what's his connection to all of this? >> good morning, craig. sam clovis is an iowa politician and a former pentagon official who's playing a senior role in donald trump's campaign. he was supervising george papadopoulos, the man who pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi and is now cooperating. nbc...

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. he reported tosamclovis. fair?>> i don't. see forsamclovisbiispeak for corey lewandowski. pop pock liss hapadopoulos had e campaign. it he wanted to insert with ideas and thoughts would have done it through the foreign policy team, mr. clovis' team but had no formal wheel so ever. >> how does a low-level guy end up on the same list at general kellogg? >> the question we have to look at. how did he end up in that initial lichte? we know about george papadopoulos, originally hired by the ben carson campaign and came highly recommended from a nonprofit organization in washington, d.c. who vowed for his credibility to the carson campaign. when dr. carson got out of the race he joined our team. how he got to our team from the carson campaign as you know, chuck, there were people who fro the carson campaign joined the trump campaign afterwards and perhaps they brought him. i don't know for sure but he was originally on the carson campaign. >> let me ask you this. if you can't say for sure how this george papadopoulos got in here, isn't it, is it that much of a leak to say, geez

. he reported to sam clovis. fair? >> i don't. see for sam clovis bii speak for corey lewandowski. pop pock liss hapadopoulos had e campaign. it he wanted to insert with ideas and thoughts would have done it through the foreign policy team, mr. clovis' team but had no formal wheel so ever. >> how does a low-level guy end up on the same list at general kellogg? >> the question we have to look at. how did he end up in that initial lichte? we know about george papadopoulos,...

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russian contact that jeff sessions allegedly knew about. >> and campaign co-chairsamclovisbeforehe left. >> by the way, gordon told him, don't do it and he went around to figure out a way to get to russia. >> payment said he told him he could go. he told you in march he did not say page should travel to russia on his own. though he also said he couldn't remember but quote i'm very clear about this, i granted nobody permission to do. that page had not provided the e-mails to the house spell jens committee when he testified on thursday but said that he would. the testimonials contradicted page's earlier comment that he only exchanged greetings with russia's deputy prime minister d dvorkorich in a raft raj of problems, if you remember, shortly after returning, he congratulated members-of-a policy team for their quote excellent work on the ukraine amendment. a reference to the trump campaign decision to intervene, water down a proposed amendment the gop's ukraine platform. page told the committee, he was expre expressing what i feel. >> let's stop right there. david ignacious, despite

russian contact that jeff sessions allegedly knew about. >> and campaign co-chair sam clovis before he left. >> by the way, gordon told him, don't do it and he went around to figure out a way to get to russia. >> payment said he told him he could go. he told you in march he did not say page should travel to russia on his own. though he also said he couldn't remember but quote i'm very clear about this, i granted nobody permission to do. that page had not provided the e-mails...

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nominee for department of agriculturesamcloviswithdrewhis name from consideration after those same court filings revealed it was clovis who was the supervisor who encouraged papadopolous him to make contact. "the washington post" reported clovis, nominated for a job called chief scientist, admitted he has no actual scientific credentials. so that was sort of a tough one too. clove advice isn't the only trump official for whom unsealed filings are causing trouble. members of congress on both sides of the aisle are depending an explanation from the attorney general of the united states. jeff sessions. they're demanding it about the discrepancies between his sworn congressional testimony and the actual events recounted in those filings. sessions appeared before both the senate intelligence and judiciary committees in recent months where he categorically denied any knowledge of contacts between the campaign and russian nationals. >> i have no knowledge of any such conversations by anyone connected to the trump campaign. >> you don't believe that surrogates from the trump campaign had c

nominee for department of agriculture sam clovis withdrew his name from consideration after those same court filings revealed it was clovis who was the supervisor who encouraged papadopolous him to make contact. "the washington post" reported clovis, nominated for a job called chief scientist, admitted he has no actual scientific credentials. so that was sort of a tough one too. clove advice isn't the only trump official for whom unsealed filings are causing trouble. members of...

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, tomorrow night was going to be when the white house revealedthecloviswhitehouse revealed the clovis nomination was withdrawn. >> yeah. >> i will still be here tomorrow night. >> good. >> i will definitely be here tomorrow night. so viewers of the hour of television of course knew this on tuesday. america found out today that, of course, sam clovis will not be having a confirmation hearing to answer questions about the dealings with the special prosecutor. >> the sam clovis story, something about the fact he is a talk radio show host from iowa and makes you think that like maybe this is kind of low level story. he's still a current administration official. he spoke to the grand jury without notifying the white house. he started to speak with mueller's investigators without telling the white house. we have no idea of an immunity agreement with the discussions and brought carter page and george papadopoulos on the trump campaign and oversaw this national security group that involved them that's now posing such difficulty for the attorney general. i mean, sam clovis is listed in

, tomorrow night was going to be when the white house revealed the clovis white house revealed the clovis nomination was withdrawn. >> yeah. >> i will still be here tomorrow night. >> good. >> i will definitely be here tomorrow night. so viewers of the hour of television of course knew this on tuesday. america found out today that, of course, sam clovis will not be having a confirmation hearing to answer questions about the dealings with the special prosecutor. >>...

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. sources tell nbc newssamclovisnowpresident trump's pick to be the agriculture chief scientist met with mueller's team and testified before the vecking going last week. his lawyer would neither confirm or deny his interactions with the mueller team. court documents describe e-mails between george papadopoulos arrested in july after admitting to lying to the fbi in its investigation and in an unnamed camp supervisors t. supervisors responded great work after papadopoulos discussed his interactions with russian, who wanted to arrange a meeting with trump and russian leaders. clovis' lawyer confirmed he was the supervisors but added that clovis never encouraged papadopoulos to pursue improved relations between the united states and russia. yesterday the white house addressed where clovis stands, given this new information. >> is the president still comfortable with him saying clovis serving the administration. >> i'm not aware any change would be necessary at this time. >> clovis who is not a scientist is serving as an unpaid white house adviser to the agriculture department. he awaits a c

. sources tell nbc news sam clovis now president trump's pick to be the agriculture chief scientist met with mueller's team and testified before the vecking going last week. his lawyer would neither confirm or deny his interactions with the mueller team. court documents describe e-mails between george papadopoulos arrested in july after admitting to lying to the fbi in its investigation and in an unnamed camp supervisors t. supervisors responded great work after papadopoulos discussed his...

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all. you look atsamclovisandgeorge papadopoulos, inside the campaign, not talking to trump daily. they were still in the company, they were having all these meetings. what bob mule ever, who is the connection? who knew what? >> history lesson, ehrlichman, mitchell. all those guys went down been nixon went down. >> there is mon a for the and a flynn indictment and more on manafort. >> what do you know about the flynn indictment? squeeze him in the father to protect the son? what are they trying to do to the guy? it was done in the rosenberg case, we will go after the part you love. can you save that part. you can't save yourself so make the deal. >> we see mueller moving in a smart methodical way. that's what you see a seasoned prosecutor like this do. >> he's frightening, anywaif. thank you. we're still tracking, of course, we will going to do throughout virginia that hot governor's race. again, nbc news, this gets kind of dull, characterizing the governor's race, it's too early to call. it's only:30. it's too early. this is "hardball" where the action is. . >> back to "hard ball

all. you look at sam clovis and george papadopoulos, inside the campaign, not talking to trump daily. they were still in the company, they were having all these meetings. what bob mule ever, who is the connection? who knew what? >> history lesson, ehrlichman, mitchell. all those guys went down been nixon went down. >> there is mon a for the and a flynn indictment and more on manafort. >> what do you know about the flynn indictment? squeeze him in the father to protect the...

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getting some positive feedback. great work was one e-mail -- >>fromclovis. letme ask you the exposure, is that what you're watching for? >> i am. the problem is, though, everyone is talking about collusion and what it means, but the problem is what is a crime? you still have be conspiring to do something illegal. conspiring to win an election is not illegal. so you're really looking for some conspiracy to hack the e-mails, to break into the election itself, the election mechanisms in different states. >> perjury is a crime, though, right? >> perjury is crime, false statements is a crime. >> is it possible they've been interviewed and not told the truth? >> it's possible, yes. >>> we're going to squeeze in a quick break. coming up, hours after the attack in new york president trump goes negative against the senior state chuck schumer. so much not wanting to get political in the hours after a national tragedy. and later hardball chris matthews weighs in on the latest of the russia investigation and tells us the most important thing that donald trump could learn from kennedy. "t

getting some positive feedback. great work was one e-mail -- >> from clovis. let me ask you the exposure, is that what you're watching for? >> i am. the problem is, though, everyone is talking about collusion and what it means, but the problem is what is a crime? you still have be conspiring to do something illegal. conspiring to win an election is not illegal. so you're really looking for some conspiracy to hack the e-mails, to break into the election itself, the election...

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meeting between putin and the president. then when you combine that with the factthatclovis, whowas the senior policy person, is encouraging him to go down this route, you certainly have people at the higher levels of the campaign who knew what was going on. and remember, all of this preceded by quite a bit of time before we even knew that there were hacked e-mails, when papadopoulos is saying, yeah, i knew there were thousands of e-mails that they were potentially in the possession of. so their effort to distance themselves both from papadopoulos and also from all of these representations that they made about no one knows anything about russia, trump didn't know anything about russia, he was sitting in that meeting too, so he knew they were trying to make connections with russia. you know, the level of lying here is pretty stunning. and if you don't think clovis and others are going to testify to more of this sort of thing, i think people are deluding themselves. >> well, to that point, we should say the paper that you write for, "the washington post," just breaking this, that papa

meeting between putin and the president. then when you combine that with the fact that clovis, who was the senior policy person, is encouraging him to go down this route, you certainly have people at the higher levels of the campaign who knew what was going on. and remember, all of this preceded by quite a bit of time before we even knew that there were hacked e-mails, when papadopoulos is saying, yeah, i knew there were thousands of e-mails that they were potentially in the possession of. so...

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,samclovisandothers around the table meeting with the candidate in kind of a ram shod way. it wasn't a formal meeting that you would expect out of a presidential campaign and people like carter page and sam clovis were not part of that beating heart of the foreign policy establishment in washington. that's not any excuse. this is a major presidential campaign. at the same time it was evident to me as a reporter that these were people who were operating on their own islands, sometimes in coordination with the campaign, sometimes on their own, and they were not the people you'd really find as a reporter on foreign policy in washington. >> yeah. i just think people forget the genesis of that and how kind of unstructured this campaign always was. carol lee, i don't want you to engage in ramp ant speculation, tempered by knowing you won't anyway, but what else can you gather from even the publicly available moves you've witnessed from the mueller team. in addition, what you may have gathered and been told about where they are? >> well, i think what you've seen is a very method cal,

, sam clovis and others around the table meeting with the candidate in kind of a ram shod way. it wasn't a formal meeting that you would expect out of a presidential campaign and people like carter page and sam clovis were not part of that beating heart of the foreign policy establishment in washington. that's not any excuse. this is a major presidential campaign. at the same time it was evident to me as a reporter that these were people who were operating on their own islands, sometimes in...

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papadopoulos had been offered dirt on hillary clinton and thousands of e-mails. didsamclovis, thecampaign supervisor know who is not going forward as agriculture chief scientist? did jeff sessions, the head of this national security committee know? that's what presumably members of congress are going to ask him. >> ken, stay with us for the rest of the conversation. let me bring in mike lotter, mike pence's press secretary, a post he left in september, just in time. what do you know or are hearing from your former colleagues about the ripple effect that ken dilanian described upon learning that papadopoulos plead guilty to lying to the fbi this summer and has been cooperating with them ever since? >> i was in the white house last night meeting with -- >> let me guess. everyone was really zen. >> i wouldn't describe it as zen. that's not a word i would use. this didn't come up. >> why would it come up if they think people might be wearing a wire. >> there are no concerns like that. this is a -- >> there are no concerns that anyone is wearing a wire? >> this is a 30-year-old kid if you look

papadopoulos had been offered dirt on hillary clinton and thousands of e-mails. did sam clovis, the campaign supervisor know who is not going forward as agriculture chief scientist? did jeff sessions, the head of this national security committee know? that's what presumably members of congress are going to ask him. >> ken, stay with us for the rest of the conversation. let me bring in mike lotter, mike pence's press secretary, a post he left in september, just in time. what do you know...