Consoles are as much a service as they are a product, says Phil Spencer.

"We're committed to Xbox One in the long run," says Microsoft's corporate VP, Phil Spencer to the Guardian, and that includes Kinect, which Spencer describes as "critical." The Xbone ecosystem just wouldn't be the same without it, and in a separate interview with CVG, Phil Harrison says much the same: "Xbox One is Kinect. They are not separate systems." The biggest developers around have been playing with the Kinect for a while, Spencer argues, and now the independent crowd will get a shot at it too. An "explosion of creativity," Spencer hopes, will be the result. But Microsoft will only benefit from that creativity if everyone understands what's on offer, which means the Kinect has to remain part of the package. If developers started to think that the Kinect wasn't a consistent part of the platform, the creativity tap would turn off.

Harrison describes his relationship with the Xbox One in slightly mystical terms. "It makes you think about your relationship with technology in a slightly different way," he says. "It's personal. It makes you think, I wish more devices would do this." But for Spencer the Kinect, and all things Xbox One, is firmly tied in to the overall vision, which is focused on the digital ecosystem that Microsoft has been trying to propagate since day one. "Consoles today are as much a service as they are an individual purchase," says Spencer. "Our commitment through Xbox Live and updating the software and keeping the games coming is a long-term service commitment." That's why the whole check-in-once-a-day bit existed in the first place and why, Spencer says, "those advantages will be coming, some at launch and some later."

Spencer does believe in listening to customer feedback, which is why Microsoft now uses what he describes as "physical DRM" - the disc - as well as digital DRM. But Spencer's clear on one thing: Microsoft wants to create the digital ecosystem that was announced at launch, and which will be coming to all customers eventually. So those of you who wanted to see the next generation console you thought Microsoft was selling will see it eventually. Just not right away.

alj:Translation. We will make it look like we have removed all the bullc**p but we will just screw you over after you have spent your money in essence "deal with it".

Yep, it will be do a 180 because people aint going to give us the money like we hoped, but later when we have their money then we will do another 180. It will a 360 Xbone, the bone you dogs didnt want but you getting it anyway, deal with it.

In short they mean to add all that DRM and digital rubbish back in later, the same way they took it out for now.

"Consoles today are as much a service as they are an individual purchase," says Spencer.

No. They are not.

My PC is not a service. My cellular phone is not a service. These are hardware, like consoles. Steam is a service, as is Xbox Live, and patches can be considered a service if you're determined to be a twit about it, but to say that the Xbox itself is a service is patently false.

If you want to make the Xbox a service, I suspect you will see a very sharp decline in business. If you do it after the fact, as seems to be the undertone here, I suspect you will also see litigation.

I would love to see him tap dance around when I tell him in person "it's not the same because not all games will need it, and you should be proving to us that this vision of yours is worth investing in".

Man you people are stupid. Sorry, I don't know any other way to put that. I truly do feel sorry to have to say that.

Hardware is part of a service, they coexist and enhance one another. What MS was trying to do with the new XBOX was push that even further, sadly, most people were too stupid and narrow minded to see that. EVERYONE assumes Company X is trying to screw them. "This feature is a clear money grab and a big FU to the consumer". Nonsense.

There is NO logic in intentionally pissing off your customer base. When a company has to backtrack, it is generally a matter of misreading the market, and by market I mean the WHOLE market, not a bunch of fanboy nerds. YOUR opinions don't mean crap. MS's primary market is family entertainment for that very reason. Relying on gamers and fanboys for revenue is about as smart as making movies based on board games that haven't been relevant in 25 years.

XBOX One is designed for voice, motion and traditional control. Kinect is part of the system, just like Sony's controllers and peripherals.

shirkbot:"Consoles today are as much a service as they are an individual purchase," says Spencer.

No. They are not.

My PC is not a service. My cellular phone is not a service. These are hardware, like consoles. Steam is a service, as is Xbox Live, and patches can be considered a service if you're determined to be a twit about it, but to say that the Xbox itself is a service is patently false.

If you want to make the Xbox a service, I suspect you will see a very sharp decline in business. If you do it after the fact, as seems to be the undertone here, I suspect you will also see litigation.

Yeah, actually they are. Those things are part of the services the connect you to. In the case of XBOX, it is not intended to exists as a stand alone device. Regardless of what people think it SHOULD do. The intention, which most people are too "torches and pitchforks" to grasp, was to create an entertainment hub that was an enhancement of something they already do VERY well.

I am so sick of seeing people with no clue talking about MS like, the XBOX one and the associated media content is not going to make MS money.

The idea that a good, functioning digital distribution service could accompany my hardware purchase is a delightful one. The idea that I don't own anything but the box and all that 'service' content belongs to me about as much as a rental, I want no part of it. I find it hard to swallow the idea of a service that is obviously geared more to help the product seller over the product consumer. This isn't a service made for me, it is a service made for publishers and advertisers.

Well, technically it kinda is, actually. Unless you can use your phone perfectly fine without a payment plan, of course...

I agree with most of what else you said, but that bit stuck out to me.

OT: So, it's very ambiguous, but it sounds like they are indeed planning on reimplementing the DRM some time after launch? It's something I've been wary about, and why I was planning on waiting a year or two to look into getting an Xbox One at best.

I really wish Microsoft would just give a straight answer for once instead of dancing around the issue and playing all coy. If you want my business, don't try to distract me with smoke and mirrors, give me a direct response; If you put in DRM, I won't be giving you my money. If you don't put in DRM on your console, and have an adequate number of unique and interesting games on your platform, I will. Simple as. Until you clarify that, though, you won't be getting any money from me regardless.

shirkbot:My PC is not a service. My cellular phone is not a service. These are hardware, like consoles.

They might be hardware but you need licensed software to use them, i.e a service. Both Windows and Mac is a service. On cellphones you need multiple services to even use basic stuff, network plans with carriers and OS licenses with the manufacturer and the multitude of third party apps on all kinds of platforms.

spartandude:They're the same thing.... so why do they have different names and if they are part of the system how come i now dont have to plug the kinect in to male the xbox one work?.... oh right PR bullshit

Are you sure you don't have to? ^^As far as I understood it there is only the option to turn of the Kinect while it its plugged in. Have I missed some news?

On a diffent note, see thay haven't changed one bit! :DAll that stuff you disliked and was removed may be implimented later ^^

theApoc:Man you people are stupid. Sorry, I don't know any other way to put that. I truly do feel sorry to have to say that.

Hardware is part of a service, they coexist and enhance one another. What MS was trying to do with the new XBOX was push that even further, sadly, most people were too stupid and narrow minded to see that. EVERYONE assumes Company X is trying to screw them. "This feature is a clear money grab and a big FU to the consumer". Nonsense.

There is NO logic in intentionally pissing off your customer base. When a company has to backtrack, it is generally a matter of misreading the market, and by market I mean the WHOLE market, not a bunch of fanboy nerds. YOUR opinions don't mean crap. MS's primary market is family entertainment for that very reason. Relying on gamers and fanboys for revenue is about as smart as making movies based on board games that haven't been relevant in 25 years.

XBOX One is designed for voice, motion and traditional control. Kinect is part of the system, just like Sony's controllers and peripherals.

Yeah, actually they are. Those things are part of the services the connect you to. In the case of XBOX, it is not intended to exists as a stand alone device. Regardless of what people think it SHOULD do. The intention, which most people are too "torches and pitchforks" to grasp, was to create an entertainment hub that was an enhancement of something they already do VERY well.

I am so sick of seeing people with no clue talking about MS like, the XBOX one and the associated media content is not going to make MS money.

It is well understood what MS was going for, and no, we are not 'too stupid' to grasp what was going on. It has been going on for a long time, to the detriment of the consumer, and is well recognized when it rears its ugly head. Our opinions absolutely DO mean crap, and the whole backtracking you're on about is the best example of this we've seen since Sony decided to inject spyware into music tracks.

If you think there is no logic in making decisions that annoy consumer bases, you've not studied industry habits very much at all. A great many industries do lots of things that they know will annoy their users, but it becomes a risk/reward scenario. What MS miscalculated was consumer's ability to discern BS when they smelled it and was likely relying on age-old consumer apathy toward the obvious negative implications of the ecosystem they were building.

People weren't up in arms about this whole thing, all 'torches and pitchforks' for no reason. And, in case you've missed it. Relying on the wallets of fanboys and nerds has made a bunch of companies a ton of money. Ask Marvel how that Avengers franchise is doing. There are more fanboys and nerds than there have ever been, and their voice has a much greater impact than you want to give credit.

You know what, on the Xbox One and Kinect thing, I see that as a plus. Means that we might actually get some decent games for it this time, as opposed to pretty much fuck all before. And as I've said before, if anyone is going to help with that it's the indies that MS are now (hopefully anyway) going to be better with than before.

Yeah, actually they are. Those things are part of the services the connect you to. In the case of XBOX, it is not intended to exists as a stand alone device. Regardless of what people think it SHOULD do. The intention, which most people are too "torches and pitchforks" to grasp, was to create an entertainment hub that was an enhancement of something they already do VERY well.

I am so sick of seeing people with no clue talking about MS like, the XBOX one and the associated media content is not going to make MS money.

Original consoles were never services, and very few consumers actually want their entire console to become a service that doesn't continue to work without keeping a paid contract with Microsoft. Mainly because games (which are supposed to be the whole point of this device) don't have to be a service. There are many games which are singleplayer only, many which do not require an internet connection to play, but Microsoft through their policies and vision for the Xbox One want to remove this utterly.

That is what Microsoft wants, not what most of the consumer base wants. And when your new product in an established line doesn't give the consumer what they want there is going to be fallout.

People have already invested a considerable amount of time and money into Microsoft's previous consoles and are major fans of the exclusive games to those consoles. They are now being sold a console with a pile of extra stuff on it that they never asked for, which increases the consoles price by $100, reduces it's potential power due to having the Kinect, and TV extras constantly running in the background, only uses Microsoft branded peripherals, the main UI screen has been designed "with advertising in mind.", and hides a lot of it's features behind a subscription fee.

Many people don't want to pay a subscription fee for a console, they don't want it turned into a "service" that they don't own. They simply want to play their videogames on their console, and unfortunately the Xbox One has not been designed for that.

At the end of the day the console was supposed to be designed for the consumers. When you look at the disconnect between what the Xbox One delivers and what gamers wanted, that hasn't happened.

Well, the Kinect part I can't really care about. It might actually mean they'll make first party games that will use it decently, though I'm doubting to see many third party games utilizing it.

Now as for them saying about the console they announced at launch going to appear some day. If they make it some sort of update that is optional or something, like you can choose to do this, deal with the DRM, but get the other things as well, or just stick to using disc based games or games tired forever to a single account from online purchases, it it's at all like that, then I won't mind it. They'll give people the choice but won't make the DRM necessary to run Xbone games. However, if it's some forced update that makes all the people that ever bought an Xbone forced into the DRM and damn near always on situation, then they'll see both a drop in pre-orders, and a high increase of Xbones being pawned off or sold to Gamestop. And then, even though people will say "oh, but they still got the money from those consoles" they'll see a sharp decrease in games sales, which is where their actual money from all this comes from.

spartandude:They're the same thing.... so why do they have different names and if they are part of the system how come i now dont have to plug the kinect in to male the xbox one work?.... oh right PR bullshit

Are you sure you don't have to? ^^As far as I understood it there is only the option to turn of the Kinect while it its plugged in. Have I missed some news?

On a diffent note, see thay haven't changed one bit! :DAll that stuff you disliked and was removed may be implimented later ^^

There was an article a few days ago where a Microsoft drone said the Kinect no longer needed to be plugged in to use the system, you would be able to play but some features would vanish in to the aether.

Which is weird because in this article calls it 'critical' which is an odd thing to say about something that apparently isn't necessary for functioning gameplay. But of course the kinect is the only remaining part of 'THE XBONE EXPERIENCE' since 'THE INFINITE POWER OF THE CLOUD' sort of went away.

I'm very excited to see what Microsoft does with the new Kinect on the Xbone. Hate the current piece of crap Kinect but with the new one attached on all consoles and some clever developers out there I think we will get some cool stuff from it.

spartandude:They're the same thing.... so why do they have different names and if they are part of the system how come i now dont have to plug the kinect in to male the xbox one work?.... oh right PR bullshit

Are you sure you don't have to? ^^As far as I understood it there is only the option to turn of the Kinect while it its plugged in. Have I missed some news?

On a diffent note, see thay haven't changed one bit! :DAll that stuff you disliked and was removed may be implimented later ^^

i think it was about last week the came out and said they were taking the Kinect requirement away... however we still dont know how many games will have some sort of non optional (and still useless) kinect gimmick in them

"You know all that shit we did to make people happy in the past couple of weeks? Assume all that's gonna go away over time, we'll just try to sneak it in."

All along this backtracking, there's been some crazies here and there claiming, "they're just saying this to get you to buy the system then they're going to do whatever they want!" I blew those people off as being a bit too paranoid. But they pretty much laid it all out there, that's true.

It's funny, I kept this thought in the back of my mind, "hey, maybe eventually, I'll get an xbone, if it turns out to be good after they back off of all the crap." Now, I guess I'll just abandon that idea.

spartandude:They're the same thing.... so why do they have different names and if they are part of the system how come i now dont have to plug the kinect in to male the xbox one work?.... oh right PR bullshit

Are you sure you don't have to? ^^As far as I understood it there is only the option to turn of the Kinect while it its plugged in. Have I missed some news?

On a diffent note, see thay haven't changed one bit! :DAll that stuff you disliked and was removed may be implimented later ^^

i think it was about last week the came out and said they were taking the Kinect requirement away... however we still dont know how many games will have some sort of non optional (and still useless) kinect gimmick in them

It is very simple. The kinect does not have to be plugged in..... But when you start ANY game or app I bet it makes you plug the fucker in, "to get the full experience". The idea will be that eventually you will get tired of disconnecting it and just leave it connected, then they will still have the spycam in your home, and they can get the kickback from the NSA.

"We made the more complicated and expensive system to develop for, and we are charging users $100 more so we can experiment with all sorts of crazy DRM and data collection. If we yell 'THE CLOUD' loud enough, people will forget our specs are worse than the PS4."