NFM Speedrunning

well it's still pretty shit to have to click several times before getting to write a post. i think there should be a place to get instant feedback considering ip has stated many times over the forums should not be used for IMs.

i went ahead and made a discord: https://discord.gg/5kQNPSe

if you could add it to the main post thatd be cool.

I just keep the topic open and refresh when a notification pops up, fairly quick. Nevertheless, Updated

Also, the rule you're referring to is and it's not referring to high-quality back-and-forth discussion, just meaningless "chatter" usually 5 words or less.

well it's still pretty shit to have to click several times before getting to write a post. i think there should be a place to get instant feedback considering ip has stated many times over the forums should not be used for IMs.

i went ahead and made a discord: https://discord.gg/5kQNPSe

if you could add it to the main post thatd be cool.

I just keep the topic open and refresh when a notification pops up, fairly quick. Nevertheless, Updated

Also, the rule you're referring to is and it's not referring to high-quality back-and-forth discussion, just meaningless "chatter" usually 5 words or less.

i don't think what we're doing necessarily counts as 'high-quality' but i think it's up to you

well it's still pretty shit to have to click several times before getting to write a post. i think there should be a place to get instant feedback considering ip has stated many times over the forums should not be used for IMs.

i went ahead and made a discord: https://discord.gg/5kQNPSe

if you could add it to the main post thatd be cool.

I just keep the topic open and refresh when a notification pops up, fairly quick. Nevertheless, Updated

Also, the rule you're referring to is and it's not referring to high-quality back-and-forth discussion, just meaningless "chatter" usually 5 words or less.

i don't think what we're doing necessarily counts as 'high-quality' but i think it's up to you

side note: mr. Q beat your WR you can't just let that slide pal

Letting it slide is exactly what I've been doing... Little does he know his record is but an illusion.

rafa1231518Young OwnerNumber of posts : 362

Age : 48Join Date : 2013-02-10

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 09 May 2017, 4:00 am

i've been working on a framerate/speedup-independent recording tool for nfmm (and potentially the nfm1 wrapper if i can get it right), any suggestions other than the obvious?

edit: as it turns out making fast and reliable screen recording software is harder than i expected

i've been working on a framerate/speedup-independent recording tool for nfmm (and potentially the nfm1 wrapper if i can get it right), any suggestions other than the obvious?

edit: as it turns out making fast and reliable screen recording software is harder than i expected

For the recorder itself or for the client as a whole?

Yes.

For the recorder, perhaps an option to save replays from games into some sort of vault which likely only NFM can read.

For the client as a whole, perhaps greater customization ability. If it's unhackable, the ability to hack it within the confines of the client would help immensely. IE,

Ability to change car color.

Ability to choose which CPUs are in a stage (obviously this would be separate from runs -- I'm talking some sort of sandbox mode). The ability to choose the AIs one plays against would be phenomenal training for actual runs. Also opens the door to even more obscure run challenges, like all-monstaa game runs, F7 survival, etc.

Invincible cars reflecting damage, so that games can go on forever but you can still "waste," just without the opponent ever truly dying. Damage could be reflected in percentage exceeding far beyond 100 at times, or maybe in talleys/lives (ie, once the car gets to 200%, two talleys are marked down). Useful for grinding.

True sandbox mode; the ability to pause the game and actually edit on the fly. Reposition the cars, angle them, change their damage, laps, speed, even momentum, direction etc. That sounds a bit too ambitious to me though, I can't imagine the difficulty of such a hack. Would be incredibly useful for setting up complex positions and playing them, testing techniques or observed phenomena and pretty much setting up an NFM-physics laboratory.

Ability to adjust cars' stats on the game itself. For example I could lower the grip of R1 to practice a track, then greatly heighten it and try the track again. Good for adapting to the sudden grip changes from F7 to R1, I know it trips people up on speedruns. Of course we wouldn't want people editing stats and then speedrunning, so perhaps an actual speedrun option in-game which forces usage of default stats for that given playthrough of NFM would be necessary. An easier workaround could be the absence or presence of a special, small, unobtrusive symbol in a corner of the NFM window, depending on whether or not any stats have been edited.

Of course I am just listing some things that I could fathom, where both the limits of NFM's code and your proficiency in Java isn't accounted for.

Ability to choose which CPUs are in a stage (obviously this would be separate from runs -- I'm talking some sort of sandbox mode). The ability to choose the AIs one plays against would be phenomenal training for actual runs. Also opens the door to even more obscure run challenges, like all-monstaa game runs, F7 survival, etc.

Invincible cars reflecting damage, so that games can go on forever but you can still "waste," just without the opponent ever truly dying. Damage could be reflected in percentage exceeding far beyond 100 at times, or maybe in talleys/lives (ie, once the car gets to 200%, two talleys are marked down). Useful for grinding.

True sandbox mode; the ability to pause the game and actually edit on the fly. Reposition the cars, angle them, change their damage, laps, speed, even momentum, direction etc. That sounds a bit too ambitious to me though, I can't imagine the difficulty of such a hack. Would be incredibly useful for setting up complex positions and playing them, testing techniques or observed phenomena and pretty much setting up an NFM-physics laboratory.

that sounds like it would be really fucking boring and tedious to make, so no

I think it's good to keep it public in case someone wants to join. After all, you scared off SheppardKillerYT so now it's just me and Qazedt running. Interested to see if one of the competitive racers joins and how they fare.

I'm still doing a few runs now and then, mostly for fun/practice. I'm busy with school and shit right now but in like a months time once I'm finished, I'll be fully active and hopefully recording some runs.

A discord group would be nice, people can always post on here and ask to be added.

Also I notice NFM2 is not getting much Speedrunning love. Is that because you guys find it's just too long to complete a satisfactory run? In some ways I actually prefer NFM2 to NFM1, so that may be what I focus on running in the future.

Also I notice NFM2 is not getting much Speedrunning love. Is that because you guys find it's just too long to complete a satisfactory run? In some ways I actually prefer NFM2 to NFM1, so that may be what I focus on running in the future.

Yeah, it's a good bit longer so speedruns are harder to repeat on it. That really isn't my reason for not running it though -- I still think the NFM1 time is far from reaching a plateau.

SheppardkillerYTAmateurNumber of posts : 53

Age : 17Join Date : 2017-04-12

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 09 May 2017, 6:43 pm

Well, I gave up running the game for now but now you added those challenge categories I will check those out. I been sick since Friday and I still have some of the effects but it's not as bad but I been focusing on Counter-Strike and other titles I normally play besides NFM. My last day of school is apparently June 8th, so, I have less than a month of school and I'll be fucking out of it for the next 3 months to finally do a shit ton more than what I wanted to do since school is fucking me hard on gaming a lot longer. I will do NFM Speedrunning if I feel like it but it doesn't mean I'm really done... my laptop though is still fucked so AB might be dead for me and no I don't do autohotkeys for keybinds if that's what one of you was gonna suggest. The no spacebar presses one seems very tedious to do but then again there's the perfect ramp executions that're there as alternatives to gain power in the run itself so we'll see where that goes.

rafa1231518Young OwnerNumber of posts : 362

Age : 48Join Date : 2013-02-10

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 09 May 2017, 10:17 pm

is it possible to beat the game using a different car every time, save for the last stage? that could be a cool challenge

Well, guess it's just me and Qaze then. You know, if you feel like it's hard to improve it's probably your route itself that needs to change. I wouldn't sweat the little mistakes.

Last edited by SinfulBliss on Wed 10 May 2017, 1:19 am; edited 2 times in total

rafa1231518Young OwnerNumber of posts : 362

Age : 48Join Date : 2013-02-10

Subject: Re: NFM Speedrunning Tue 09 May 2017, 11:24 pm

here's a 240p extremely low bitrate video showing off the development progress on the client.

i've done a lot of work on the backend: the two lines at the top of the screen are the checksum which is encrypted. if cheats are detected it won't show up. it's also written to a file called securityFile.txt, so you just upload that to pastebin, link to it in a run and i (since i'm the only one who has the private key) will decrypt and verify it.

there's also three timers, which follow the new rules (but dont end properly yet)

here's a 240p extremely low bitrate video showing off the development progress on the client.

i've done a lot of work on the backend: the two lines at the top of the screen are the checksum which is encrypted. if cheats are detected it won't show up. it's also written to a file called securityFile.txt, so you just upload that to pastebin, link to it in a run and i (since i'm the only one who has the private key) will decrypt and verify it.

there's also three timers, which follow the new rules (but dont end properly yet)

Wait, didn't you tell me a visual marker proving someone isn't hacking can just be thwarted by a video editing software?

IE - Play legit, screenie the checksum, play with a hacked client, record, edit on the checksum.

Also, is it going to stay for the whole run? Might affect visibility a bit. Will make me feel like a l33t h4x0r using it thought.

Wait, didn't you tell me a visual marker proving someone isn't hacking can just be thwarted by a video editing software?

yes, that's why i made the checksum have distinct but absoultely defined, non-random colors so it's easy to identify but hard to fake because the colors would be wrong, or the font, or the position etc. it's still not the 'unhackable dream' but it's very bulletproof.

eh you get used to itmaybe i'll change the position or something, we'll figure it out when i release it proper

side note again i've been polishing up the backend and fixed some crippling bugs in the client, also i removed some debugging code so it should run faster now.i also made the stage select show which cars appear in a race. it's not cheating because its no different from pulling up a google docs chart with a list of which cars appear in which race basically.i also fixed the car select glitch. however this means taht the runs on my client might be a few millis faster than runs on the real client. if this is a problem to anyone, i can add an artificial timer, so do tell me if that's a concern.

yes otherwise you could just record part of it legit and splice the other half with hacked footage!

What if instead of showing the checksum when the user didn't hack, you only showed it when there were hacks? They couldn't splice shit then, because there'd be a large checksum text on their entire hacked run.

Or perhaps simply locking the ability to speedrun while hacks are detected. Allow the player to do everything else, just not speedrun.

i also fixed the car select glitch. however this means taht the runs on my client might be a few millis faster than runs on the real client. if this is a problem to anyone, i can add an artificial timer, so do tell me if that's a concern.

No big deal right now because speedruns are usually 10-20 seconds apart (barring the current #1 and #2, but they won't be so close for long .

Aren't the cars that appear in a race just all the cars you have unlocked, plus the boss?

unless it's stage 1/stage 2 and you've completed the game up to El King (the formation for those two seems to stay), or unless it's any other stage you've already completed (then the cars are random) or unless you've picked a car that was gonna appear (then it starts working its way backwards), also the spots are all randomized except for the boss car, etc etc etc

so yeah its an advantage but all of the rules are effectively fixed (save for the RNG) so you could just as easily write them down in an excel sheet.

No big deal right now because speedruns are usually 10-20 seconds apart (barring the current #1 and #2, but they won't be so close for long .

coolio

side note: i've started doing pacifist runs and i'm convinced it's possible as long as you RNG abuse to balance out the weaker cars in a race

heres my strategy atm:stage 1-2: formula 7 since it's the weakest car. of course picking F7 makes nimi appear but picking, say, tornado shark makes f7 appear so it's the least of two evilsstage 3-4: max revenge since it's the strongest car it's gonna be picking up scraps from Lead Oxidestage 5: i haven't beat this one yet but it's probably either max revenge (since he's still fairly fast at this point) or f7 (since all the cars are at a pretty strong point it might be best to just try and win as fast as you can)

unless it's stage 1/stage 2 and you've completed the game up to El King (the formation for those two seems to stay), or unless it's any other stage you've already completed (then the cars are random) or unless you've picked a car that was gonna appear (then it starts working its way backwards), also the spots are all randomized except for the boss car, etc etc etc

so yeah its an advantage but all of the rules are effectively fixed (save for the RNG) so you could just as easily write them down in an excel sheet.

You made it show the 4 cars that the RNG actually chose, or you just made it show all the available cars that the game can put in?

side note: i've started doing pacifist runs and i'm convinced it's possible as long as you RNG abuse to balance out the weaker cars in a race

heres my strategy atm:stage 1-2: formula 7 since it's the weakest car. of course picking F7 makes nimi appear but picking, say, tornado shark makes f7 appear so it's the least of two evilsstage 3-4: max revenge since it's the strongest car it's gonna be picking up scraps from Lead Oxidestage 5: i haven't beat this one yet but it's probably either max revenge (since he's still fairly fast at this point) or f7 (since all the cars are at a pretty strong point it might be best to just try and win as fast as you can)

That's unique -- the strategy actually revolves around who you prevent the AI from throwing in. Well, I still don't see how Stage 11 is going to be beaten, but I guess that'll be tested.

You made it show the 4 cars that the RNG actually chose, or you just made it show all the available cars that the game can put in?

the ones it actually chose, that's why i commented about it being cheaty! of course the results are only meaningfully random if you've actually beaten the stage (otherwise it's just the well defined rules, the only randomness being which car goes in which slot) so if that's such a big issue i can disable it then and sort the results alphabetically everywhere else but that just sounds like a silly change to me. or i could disable it altogether but youd need to present a damn good argument for that.

the ones it actually chose, that's why i commented about it being cheaty! of course the results are only meaningfully random if you've actually beaten the stage (otherwise it's just the well defined rules, the only randomness being which car goes in which slot) so if that's such a big issue i can disable it then and sort the results alphabetically everywhere else but that just sounds like a silly change to me. or i could disable it altogether but youd need to present a damn good argument for that.

If it shows the ones the RNG actually chose, does that mean they can change the cars they'll play against by simply scrolling to another stage and then scrolling back? Also it must be random -- I can play Stage 1, without having beaten it 5 separate times and it's likely I will get different cars 5 times. Sometimes I might get Nimi, sometimes LVC, who knows. It's more or less random which ones you get.

It only becomes a bit of an unfair advantage if they can change their roll of cars significantly faster than someone without the client. But we still haven't really clarified whether or not this client will become mandatory for running.

Obviously we need a way to stop hackers but it will also make speedrunning slightly less accessible to the general public (some people won't go to the trouble, if you can even call it that, of downloading another client for running).

Also it must be random -- I can play Stage 1, without having beaten it 5 separate times and it's likely I will get different cars 5 times.

did you pick a different car? of course then there will be different AI because the game won't want 2 same cars in a race.if you haven't beat the stage then it's always the same 4 last unlocked cars + 1 locked boss car; if one of the cars is the same as yours it keeps going for the previous cars until it fidns one that hasn't been chosen yet.

It only becomes a bit of an unfair advantage if they can change their roll of cars significantly faster than someone without the client.

as i said, there's no point 'changing' the cars because unless you're doing a non-NG run it's gonna be the same few cars - it's only displayed to be informative, so if you pick a car that would be on the grid on a stage you know what car replaces the car you pick on the grid.

Obviously we need a way to stop hackers but it will also make speedrunning slightly less accessible to the general public (some people won't go to the trouble, if you can even call it that, of downloading another client for running).

i never intended on it really becoming mandatory, it's just an extra layer of 'i am not cheating' on top of the existing game because obviously you could just use opennfmm and fuck with the values and claim you're playing real nfmm.it's probably a shot in the foot for me to say this, but the people who won't be arsed to download the client are the people who probably don't pose a threat.who knows. it's our job to keep the runs legit, isn't it? i'm sure you can cheat in Undertale runs as well, for example.