Lebanon News and World News Live from Beirut

Palestinian Statehood and the UN Vote

That the ongoing tragedy of the Palestinian dispossession in 1948 is still in limbo speaks volumes about the depth of the injustice that the Palestinian people have been subjected to by the whole world community. The iniquity bestowed on the Palestinians is practically unparalleled but they have come to accept the state of Israel, the power that has usurped their land, their homes, and their humanity provided they would not be prevented from establishing their own nation on the land that was taken by Israel during the 1967 war.

The sudden shock of the dispossession led to the adoption of a few unproductive policies in the hope that their acts would win back what has been taken away from them by force, their land and their right to self determination. Many have argued over the past 65 years that the Palestinians have often been their best enemies when they followed policies that guarantee negative sensational press coverage but nothing else. These wrong and misguided means are best described as Pyrrhic victories. Whether it was exploding the airliners in the Jordanian dessert, massacring the Israeli athletes in the Olympic village in Germany or throwing overboard the body of Leon Klinghoffer from the Achille Lauro the Palestinian guerrillas failed to win converts to their cause.

Eventually the Palestinian leadership agreed to renounce its claim to the whole of Palestine and to accept to live side by side with the Israeli state that has not stopped its continued incursions into the West Bank by building more settlements and by expanding the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem by continuing the acts of dispossession and disinheritance of the Palestinians. Yet the Palestinian Authority under the leadership of President Abbas and PM Fayad offers nothing but continued support for the two state solutions that the Israeli government has honored through lip service only. Their latest move is to seek recognition of a Palestinian state from both the General assembly and the Security Council of the United Nations.

It is clear that most countries in the world, with very few exceptions will vote at the General Assembly in favour of this resolution. It will pass overwhelmingly. But a General Assembly vote does not carry as much heft as one in the Security Council, and this is the rub. The US government has all but guaranteed that it will veto the Security Council resolution later on this month. Since this expected Palestinian request and US response are a practical certainty then one must ask what the potential outcome from this line of action is. One thing for certain is that the US veto will expose the US one more time as duplicitous and hypocritical as far as the Arab Israeli question is concerned. The fallout from such a vote will hurt not only the US but also all its potential allies in the region. Unfortunately, the realities of American presidential elections dictate that Mr. Obama will forget all his promises to change the world and will veto the resolution at the Security Council. Make no mistake about it, Secretary Clinton and the White House will use Orwellian language to tell us that they vetoed the resolution because of their commitment to a two state solution. If any one takes these explanations seriously then they make great prospects for those who want to sell land in New Orleans ‘ ninth ward.

But why should a setback for the US, as significant as it might be, be considered more than a moral victory at best for the Palestinian people. In a sense such a moral victory could be construed as an empty one if not quite a Pyrrhic victory. The attempt to embarrass the US on such a large scale will undoubtedly lead to efforts by the Congress to reduce US financial aid to the Palestinian Authority at a time when its budget coffers are empty. But that in itself is not a major development. The real danger from this vote is that the intransigence of the current Israeli government will only increase and the possibilities of any progress diminished appreciably. The world media will spend a day or two maybe even a week covering this story and interviewing the Palestinian officials who will be celebrating their new status at the general assembly but as time goes on other stories, political and economic will come to dominate the news cycle. By then the Palestinians would be exactly in the same position that they are in right now and possibly they will be facing larger challenges.

Usually the argument to do the right thing wins easily. But in this case, I am afraid that the potential consequences of this act more than nullify its purely moral gains for the Palestinian people. If an act is to be judged ultimately by its consequences then the PA has nothing to gain from this line of action. Maybe what the PA should consider, rather seriously, is a declaration that they no longer want a two state solution but instead they want to demand that they become citizens of the state that has occupied them for the past 44 years. If their demands are not met then the PA will launch major civil disobedience campaigns all across Israel. Maybe it is time that the Israeli political establishment should be made to realize the consequences of its acts.

some truths mixed with a bunch of bullshit, a good article makes not. a total disregard to the fact that jews in the area have the right to govern themselves and not be second class citizens to savage arabs. the author of this article either knows nothing of the history of the region or is just another brainwashed donkey who buys into the whole Jews are taking our land bullshit.
Jews bought up land and won defensive battles that netted them some land from their invaders(the arabs) who outnumbered them 100 to 1 at the least. want to be fair? how about being honest for a change.
what if the christians of lebanon united and decided they wanted to govern themselves in a “christian” state? dont they have the right to do so? and then what if they wanted to invite whoever they wanted to come share their “christian” state with them? is that not their right too? how many muslim states are there? and one jewish state is a problem?
this author is just another douchebag who thinks only muslims have the right to govern and the rest must live as second class citizens.

arabism and muslim expansionism is the real problem, not Israel nor christians of lebanon nor the copts nor the iraqi christians etc….

Ghassan Karam

7akibalash,
No one has the right to create a state by eliminating its rightfull inhabitants, not the Lebanese Christians, not the Jews, not anyone. Please next time try to refrain from using disrespectful language.

7akibalash

“elimininating its rightfull inhabitants” care to elaborate on this one? arabs do live in Israel incase you didnt know, those who left werent allowed to return, get your facts straight atleast, no one eliminated them.

furthermore, when the arabs attacked the Jews to push them into the sea, every jewish town they came across they destroyed and killed and kicked out its inhabitants untill the jews were able to mount their counter offensive on the barbaric arabs who invaded them, and what do you know, they were successfull and they repelled the arab forces, meanwhile the arabs were losing bad and started using propoganda to scare the inhabitants into fighting along their side which backfired and ended up with more refugees cause no one wanted to be raped by the advancing jewish army(this was the propoganda, they told people that jews were going from house to house raping and slaughtering, which was a load of crap and denied by the survivers themselves)
so when you throw words around like “eliminating”, you come across as someone who has been brainwashed by arab propoganda, it’s that simple.
also dont forget that Jews have lived in that area for thousands of years, so when you say things like “rightfull inhabitants” who do you mean?

Patience2

There were lots of people there before the Jews were ‘evicted’ from Egypt. They(the Jews) said ‘God’ gave them the land and that they might kill anyone on the land(if need be) and that then it would be theirs! Might that work for anyone??

master09

When you put the facts to people, they don,t answer, as he did with me. But like you say when from the age of 6 months you are taught to hate someone, be the Jews or who ever it might be, than your thinking is never to find the truth but, my teacher or my father or my mufti told me so that must be true.

master09

When you put the facts to people, they don,t answer, as he did with me. But like you say when from the age of 6 months you are taught to hate someone, be the Jews or who ever it might be, than your thinking is never to find the truth but, my teacher or my father or my mufti told me so that must be true.

5thDrawer

I’m certain MOST people wouldn’t want Hezzys or Hamas anywhere CLOSE to handling their ‘security’ in the UN.
Get real, people.
Bad enough now with the ones put in charge of deciding ‘Women’s Rights’ in the world … see Ethiopia as an example – more babies and less food. Please get a handle on the bigger picture … what face does a ‘country’ represent to humanity after all, when allowed to ‘join’ a theoretically august body of nations hoping to better human experience on earth?
It MUST be more than something about the property …

Anonymous

some truths mixed with a bunch of bullshit, a good article makes not. a total disregard to the fact that jews in the area have the right to govern themselves and not be second class citizens to savage arabs. the author of this article either knows nothing of the history of the region or is just another brainwashed donkey who buys into the whole Jews are taking our land bullshit.
Jews bought up land and won defensive battles that netted them some land from their invaders(the arabs) who outnumbered them 100 to 1 at the least. want to be fair? how about being honest for a change.
what if the christians of lebanon united and decided they wanted to govern themselves in a “christian” state? dont they have the right to do so? and then what if they wanted to invite whoever they wanted to come share their “christian” state with them? is that not their right too? how many muslim states are there? and one jewish state is a problem?
this author is just another douchebag who thinks only muslims have the right to govern and the rest must live as second class citizens.

arabism and muslim expansionism is the real problem, not Israel nor christians of lebanon nor the copts nor the iraqi christians etc….

7akibalash,
No one has the right to create a state by eliminating its rightfull inhabitants, not the Lebanese Christians, not the Jews, not anyone. Please next time try to refrain from using disrespectful language.

Anonymous

“elimininating its rightfull inhabitants” care to elaborate on this one? arabs do live in Israel incase you didnt know, those who left werent allowed to return, get your facts straight atleast, no one eliminated them.

furthermore, when the arabs attacked the Jews to push them into the sea, every jewish town they came across they destroyed and killed and kicked out its inhabitants untill the jews were able to mount counter offensive on the barbaric arabs who invaded them, and what do you know, they were successfull and they repelled the arab forces, meanwhile the arabs were losing bad and started using propoganda to scare the inhabitants into fighting along their side which backfired and ended up with more refugees cause no one wanted to be raped by the advancing jewish army(this was the propoganda, they told people that jews were going from house to house raping and slaughtering, which was a load of crap and denied by the survivers themselves)
so when you throw words around like “eliminating”, you come across as someone who has been brainwashed by arab propoganda, it’s that simple.
also dont forget that Jews have lived in that area for thousands of years, so when you say things like “rightfull inhabitants” who do you mean?

Anonymous

There were lots of people there before the Jews were ‘evicted’ from Egypt. They(the Jews) said ‘God’ gave them the land and that they might kill anyone on the land(if need be) and that then it would be theirs! Might that work for anyone??

Anonymous

When you put the facts to people, they don,t answer, as he did with me. But like you say when from the age of 6 months you are taught to hate someone, be the Jews or who ever it might be, than your thinking is never to find the truth but, my teacher or my father or my mufti told me so that must be true.

Anonymous

“elimininating its rightfull inhabitants” care to elaborate on this one? arabs do live in Israel incase you didnt know, those who left werent allowed to return, get your facts straight atleast, no one eliminated them.

furthermore, when the arabs attacked the Jews to push them into the sea, every jewish town they came across they destroyed and killed and kicked out its inhabitants untill the jews were able to mount counter offensive on the barbaric arabs who invaded them, and what do you know, they were successfull and they repelled the arab forces, meanwhile the arabs were losing bad and started using propoganda to scare the inhabitants into fighting along their side which backfired and ended up with more refugees cause no one wanted to be raped by the advancing jewish army(this was the propoganda, they told people that jews were going from house to house raping and slaughtering, which was a load of crap and denied by the survivers themselves)
so when you throw words around like “eliminating”, you come across as someone who has been brainwashed by arab propoganda, it’s that simple.
also dont forget that Jews have lived in that area for thousands of years, so when you say things like “rightfull inhabitants” who do you mean?

Anonymous

“elimininating its rightfull inhabitants” care to elaborate on this one? arabs do live in Israel incase you didnt know, those who left werent allowed to return, get your facts straight atleast, no one eliminated them.

furthermore, when the arabs attacked the Jews to push them into the sea, every jewish town they came across they destroyed and killed and kicked out its inhabitants untill the jews were able to mount counter offensive on the barbaric arabs who invaded them, and what do you know, they were successfull and they repelled the arab forces, meanwhile the arabs were losing bad and started using propoganda to scare the inhabitants into fighting along their side which backfired and ended up with more refugees cause no one wanted to be raped by the advancing jewish army(this was the propoganda, they told people that jews were going from house to house raping and slaughtering, which was a load of crap and denied by the survivers themselves)
so when you throw words around like “eliminating”, you come across as someone who has been brainwashed by arab propoganda, it’s that simple.
also dont forget that Jews have lived in that area for thousands of years, so when you say things like “rightfull inhabitants” who do you mean?

Anonymous

I’m certain MOST people wouldn’t want Hezzys or Hamas anywhere CLOSE to handling their ‘security’ in the UN.
Get real, people.
Bad enough now with the ones put in charge of deciding ‘Women’s Rights’ in the world … see Ethiopia as an example – more babies and less food. Please get a handle on the bigger picture … what face does a ‘country’ represent to humanity after all, when allowed to ‘join’ a theoretically august body of nations hoping to better human experience on earth?
It MUST be more than something about the property …

Patience2

Seems like when Jews become embedded in any society, trouble is sure to follow. Ask any Roman.

Hebrew also disappeared(became a dead language), only to be resurrected in recent times(probably following the messiah’s example).

Anonymous

Ah yes … Jesus probably did speak Hebrew … but I’m not sure He cared so much about the language, as the message. 🙂

Adam Yonatan Ben Yoel

As I have said, it will not rid you of them. It will give them an easier
place to get weapons for the camps in Lebanon, from which they will
shoot us and our stupid defense establishment will hit you back.

As I have said, it will not rid you of them. It will give them an easier
place to get weapons for the camps in Lebanon, from which they will
shoot us and our stupid defense establishment will hit you back.

Sebouh80

Mr.Karam, “I tip my hat” for this great article.

In retrospect, the Palestinian tragedy reminds me of the Armenian sufferings during and after the genocide of 1915.
After the armistice of 1918, Armenians in general were convinced with President Wilson’s grand humanitarian vision which called for freedom and liberty and the right of self determination for all state subjects, but the problem was that the Armenians at that time were in a very desperate situation which totally depended it’s fate on the victors of World War 1.
Shortly afterwords the imperialist powers became somewhat determined that these wretched Armenians were nothing more than a liability to them and decided to abandon their grandiose vision just like the Palestinians today.
Finally, I still think that even if President Obama adopted a different course of action concerning the Palestinian question then be rest assured his efforts would have been torpedoed by the vested interet groups inside congress or the senate. We should always remind ourselves that America’s foreign policy is driven through the spectacle of narrow geopolitical and commercial interests.

Ghassan Karam

Sebouh,
“Faith Misplaced” is a great book that deals specifically with misplaced faith and trust that Arabs placed on the promises of President Wilson. The book is by a Lebanese historian, Ussama Makdisi, and its a great read. I think that you will enjoy it if you have not already read it.

5thDrawer

Well, for sure the ‘west’ never quite understood the ‘east’ … and basically still doesn’t, but for other reasons these days.
All the mistakes of the past are real mistakes … and accurate histories record them … but if someone is trying to correct them now, using the past as other than a reference for attempting a better future becomes a ‘present’ mistake too.
If no-one lays out a ‘now-and-in-future’ concept which can address an equality position for everyone to agree on, then there can never be one anyway … but dragging up history to confront and affront all the time only stops any new concept cold. And it seems to me that ‘Faith’ has not only been misplaced by now, it has been totally lost.

Maybe publishing the basic ‘Constitution’ of the new country ‘Palestine’ would be good for reviewers here ….

5thDrawer

Sebouh80; Ghassan; et al …. A short story about ‘concepts’ … and bigger pictures of reality.
I once had the pleasure of talking to an ordinary citizen of France, at one of those times when ‘the people’ celebrated the invasion dates of their country by western Allied Armies. The man was old enough to remember 2 ‘world’ wars and still young enough to give his appreciable thoughts on what they meant – to him, and to his country. I had already been amazed to see a couple of large cemeteries of the soldiers who died there – properties now of those countries of the invading forces – which are well maintained by French school children, who it seems learn their history properly.
We talked over a glass of wine which he insisted on buying because his mood was so jubilant for the day and what it represented. He was happy to talk about his life to a stranger. I asked about this ‘custom’ of remembrance of such hard times and the cemeteries. His answer surprised me, was fairly short, and yet filled with a lifetime of meaning. He said:
‘They are the people who conquered France – TWICE … and then gave it back to us – gave it back to the French.’

master09

The Armenians they were driven into a waste land to die.
The Arab Palestinians were told by the Arabs to leave West bank,Gaza and other places so Egypt, Syria and Jordan can xterminate the Jews. The Jews never touched these so called Arab Palestinians who by the way most lived on the west of the river which is now Jordan but was part of Palestine ,so why not take that part of Palestine back for the people.

master09

The Armenians they were driven into a waste land to die.
The Arab Palestinians were told by the Arabs to leave West bank,Gaza and other places so Egypt, Syria and Jordan can xterminate the Jews. The Jews never touched these so called Arab Palestinians who by the way most lived on the west of the river which is now Jordan but was part of Palestine ,so why not take that part of Palestine back for the people.

Anonymous

Mr.Karam, “I tip my hat” for this great article.

In retrospect, the Palestinian tragedy reminds me of the Armenian sufferings during and after the genocide of 1915.
After the armistice of 1918, Armenians in general were convinced with President Wilson’s grand humanitarian vision which called for freedom and liberty and the right of self determination for all state subjects, but the problem was that the Armenians at that time were in a very desperate situation which totally depended it’s fate on the victors of World War 1.
Shortly afterwords the imperialist powers became somewhat determined that these wretched Armenians were nothing more than a liability to them and decided to abandon their grandiose vision just like the Palestinians today.
Finally, I still think that even if President Obama adopted a different course of action concerning the Palestinian question then be rest assured his efforts would have been torpedoed by the vested interet groups inside congress or the senate. We should always remind ourselves that America’s foreign policy is driven through the spectacle of narrow geopolitical and commercial interests.

Sebouh,
“Faith Misplaced” is a great book that deals specifically with misplaced faith and trust that Arabs placed on the promises of President Wilson. The book is by a Lebanese historian, Ussama Makdisi, and its a great read. I think that you will enjoy it if you have not already read it.

Anonymous

Well, for sure the ‘west’ never quite understood the ‘east’ … and basically still doesn’t, but for other reasons these days.
All the mistakes of the past are real mistakes … and accurate histories record them … but if someone is trying to correct them now, using the past as other than a reference for attempting a better future becomes a ‘present’ mistake too.
If no-one lays out a ‘now-and-in-future’ concept which can address an equality position for everyone to agree on, then there can never be one anyway … but dragging up history to confront and affront all the time only stops any new concept cold. And it seems to me that ‘Faith’ has not only been misplaced by now, it has been totally lost.

Maybe publishing the basic ‘Constitution’ of the new country ‘Palestine’ would be good for reviewers here ….

Anonymous

Sebouh80; Ghassan; et al …. A short story about ‘concepts’ … and bigger pictures of reality.
I once had the pleasure of talking to an ordinary citizen of France, at one of those times when ‘the people’ celebrated the invasion dates of their country by western Allied Armies. The man was old enough to remember 2 ‘world’ wars and still young enough to give his appreciable thoughts on what they meant – to him, and to his country. I had already been amazed to see a couple of large cemeteries of the soldiers who died there – properties now of those countries of the invading forces – which are well maintained by French school children, who it seems learn their history properly.
We talked over a glass of wine which he insisted on buying because his mood was so jubilant for the day and what it represented. He was happy to talk about his life to a stranger. I asked about this ‘custom’ of remembrance of such hard times and the cemeteries. His answer surprised me, was fairly short, and yet filled with a lifetime of meaning. He said:
‘They are the people who conquered France – TWICE … and then gave it back to us – gave it back to the French.’

Anonymous

The Armenians they were driven into a waste land to die.
The Arab Palestinians were told by the Arabs to leave West bank,Gaza and other places so Egypt, Syria and Jordan can xterminate the Jews. The Jews never touched these so called Arab Palestinians who by the way most lived on the west of the river which is now Jordan but was part of Palestine ,so why not take that part of Palestine back for the people.

PROPHET.T

Ghassan,

With a nonexistent peace process, and a clear unwillingness of the united states to pressure the Israelis to adhere to the two state solution as the spirit of the peace process had intended, Palestinians have little to lose by forcing a vote at the UN.
An embarrassment to the united states will, as you pointed out, will expose the double standard of the white house and congress which ,while supporting a two state solution, have done almost nothing to achieve the intended goal.
An expected veto by the US and an anticipated vote by the general assembly will be a moral victory for Palestinians; they have nothing else to loose.
The Israelis secured a UN vote in 1948 based on morality as much as history. This would be the first time since the Israeli Palestinian conflicts which Palestinians would use similar or same reasoning as Israelis for their natural rights for independent state. Israel and the united states can resist so much, but sooner or later the united states ,who supposedly champions the idea of human rights and democracy , would have to either pressure the Israelis to negotiate with good faith, or unilaterally support an independent Palestinian state based on 76 border lines.
Moving the issue of state hood to the UN security council is a reminder to president Obama of his well-remembered speech at Cairo university, shortly after his election when He said: “Israel’s right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s.”
The US ,as a powerful nation, can afford such embarrassment, but I believe Obama can use it against the Israelis to tell them that the Palestinian rights for a state is a fact (I put it on hold for you) waiting to happen, and they better agree to it now before it is too late.
As for your fear of congress’ reaction to this embarrassment by reducing financial aid to the Palestinian authority, such reaction can only expose the united states even further ,and is not likely to happen. I personally wish it would, so that Palestinians understand that their desire to be independent cannot be tied up to, or blackmailed by financial aids to the Palestinian authority.

Ghassan Karam

Prophet.t,
I understand the logic of each point that you make and I do not deny any of them. As you might imagine I did not arrive at my conclusion casually. I assure you that I have been thinking about this matter for sometime and finally I decided that the Palestinians have nothing to gain from this confrontation at this time but they have something to lose. In that calculus the risk overweighs the rewards and risk averter will shun this action.
I also think , seriously, that the Palestinians should ask the Israelis that they want to become full Israeli citizens .If that does not get the Israelis to reevaluate their position then nothing would.

PROPHET.T

I truly wish that Palestinians would consider your idea of asking Israel for full citizenship. Israel would then reevaluate it s position ,if not, most Israeli Jews would relocate to Europe or america, if all Palestinians became full Israelis citizen.

5thDrawer

After 3 generations in camps, where are the ones asking for Syrian, Jordanian, or Lebanese citizenship?

Ghassan Karam

5thdrawer,
I have written on this subject many times. The Arab record in dealing with the Palestinians is nothing to be proud of. But that is a different topic.

master09

Did Isreal not offer more than one time to give the Palestinians up to 93% of west bank and the answer was always NO.
1937- British gave 96% of westbank Amin al Husseini said NO
1947 UN offered 50% of Isreal again they said NO
1967 well when the PLO charter Article 15 says .. ‘ the liquidation of the Zionist presensce in Palestine” and rockets going over every day, the take over. REmember the PLO was found in June1964 while the west bank was in Arab hands WHY?..

After this the Arabs said NO to peace with Isreal NO to recognition of Isreal NO to NEGOTIATION with Isreal….
1993 OSLO Occord and still the PLO said NO
1993 1998 rockets kept going over and over
Proposed in the Fall of 2000 following the collapse of the Camp David talks, The Clinton Parameters included a plan on which the Palestinian State was to include 94-96% of the West Bank. again NO
2008 100% land swap but NO.

So if one side always says we want the destruction of the Jewish state how can you come up with a solution?

Cheers

Ghassan Karam

master09,
It was very difficult for the Palestinians to accept losing half of their land only on the basis that a group of UN countries said so. But as you well now when the Palestinian were in a total rejection state of mind Israel was for partition but when later on the Palestinians changed the charter of the PLO and accepted the state of Israel the Israelis started have cold feet. Isn’t it ironic that both sides appear to have switched positions. The Palestinians are for a two stae solution but Israel wants to have it all. the camp david proposal gave the Palestinians a country that looks like swiss cheese. It was full of Israeli settlements and practically no sovereignty.
I truly believe that at the moment the real obstacle to peace are not the Palestinians but the israeliswho are defying international law and creating conditions that are gnawing at the Jewish soul.

master, i agree palestinans have made many mistakes in the past and i am no fan of the militant pit bulls.

without hope you have nothing and lets face it so many decades of horrible living conditions and mental anguish take its toll on anybody.

i really feel for the civilians and wish that they had better representation that should have stopped the crapping and started wiping long ago.

i know it is a complicated cluster but if yasser,,, i mean no sir arafat would have made a deal and settled the issues 15 years ago… world contributions could have turned their wasteland into a tourist wonderland for the world to visit.

everyone living there would not give a dam about the past and would enjoy their life for a change, i dont see why they could not out do dubai if you give them hope and pride of a place to call their own.
as long as they have nothing.
they have nothing to lose
i have to agree with ghassan,sebouh and prophet that insult will be added to injury as the us caters to israel just as hamas caters to iran

master, i agree palestinans have made many mistakes in the past and i am no fan of the militant pit bulls.

without hope you have nothing and lets face it so many decades of horrible living conditions and mental anguish take its toll on anybody.

i really feel for the civilians and wish that they had better representation that should have stopped the crapping and started wiping long ago.

i know it is a complicated cluster but if yasser,,, i mean no sir arafat would have made a deal and settled the issues 15 years ago… world contributions could have turned their wasteland into a tourist wonderland for the world to visit.

everyone living there would not give a dam about the past and would enjoy their life for a change, i dont see why they could not out do dubai if you give them hope and pride of a place to call their own.
as long as they have nothing.
they have nothing to lose
i have to agree with ghassan,sebouh and prophet that insult will be added to injury as the us caters to israel just as hamas caters to iran

abusamir

I say history in not on Israel’s side; If smart will grab what is asked by Palestinians of it and not wait for the future to decide its future ( be it 20-50 yrs.) and mass self destruction that can strip Israel from current existence!

master09

Ghassan
You say >>>> I truly believe that at the moment the real obstacle to peace are not the Palestinians but the israelis who are defying international law and creating conditions that are gnawing at the Jewish soul.

I would like to make this point if your neighbour has been for the last 70 years wanting to destroy your family sending rocks over your fence and the policy is NO to peace with you NO to recognition of you NO to NEGOTIATION with you…. what would you do sit back and let them take over your world. I think we both know the answer Isreal has been sitting and talking but what ever option they come up with the aswer has always been NO with no compromise, it is what the PLO want or NOTHING, how does that work.
If I don’t get what I want Im walking out, instead of sitting and trying to come up with other option, I start firing rockets over the fence.
Correct me if Im wrong but that is what I have seen time after time.

Yes Isreal is also trying to come up with what they want but is’ t that what any group or country would do, so yes not just Isreal but also the Palestinians want tooo much both are making problems so we can not point the finger at one group, yes. It takes two to come up with an answer for the people not just thier own political agenda. NO Arab country gives a crap about the Palestinian people not one. the world gives $325 million in aid while the Arabs give a massive $3.25 million and not a single job to the Palestinians.
The Arabs don’t care about the people this is nothing but an agenda for the destruction of the JEWISH state simple. .
The Arabs who left Isreal left on thier own two feet with the advice of the Arab leaders no one killed them.

PROPHET.T

Ghassan,

With a nonexistent peace process, and the unwillingness of the united states to pressure the Israelis to adhere to the two state solution and to the intended spirit of the peace process, Palestinians have little to lose by forcing a vote at the UN.
An embarrassment to the united states will, as you pointed out, will expose the double standard of the white house and congress which ,while supporting a two state solution, have done almost nothing to achieve the intended goal.
An expected veto by the US and an anticipated vote by the general assembly will be a moral victory for Palestinians; they have nothing else to loose.
The Israelis secured a UN vote in 1948 based on morality as much as history. This would be the first time since the Israeli Palestinian conflicts which Palestinians would use similar or same reasoning as Israelis for their natural rights for independent state. Israel and the united states can resist so much, but sooner or later the united states ,who supposedly champions the idea of human rights and democracy , would have to either pressure the Israelis to negotiate with good faith, or unilaterally support an independent Palestinian state based on 76 border lines.
Moving the issue of state hood to the UN security council is a reminder to president Obama of his well-remembered speech at Cairo university, shortly after his election when He said: “Israel’s right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine’s.”
The US ,as a powerful nation, can afford such embarrassment, but I believe they can use it against the Israelis to tell them that the Palestinian rights for a state is a fact waiting to happen, and the better agree to it now before it is too late.
As for your fear of congress’ reaction to this embarrassment by reducing financial aid to the Palestinian authority, such reaction can only expose the united states even further ,and is not likely to happen. I personally wish it would, so that Palestinians understand that their desire to be independent cannot be tied up to, or blackmailed by financial aids to the Palestinian authority.

Prophet.t,
I understand the logic of each point that you make and I do not deny any of them. As you might imagine I did not arrive at my conclusion casually. I assure you that I have been thinking about this matter for sometime and finally I decided that the Palestinians have nothing to gain from this confrontation at this time but they have something to lose. In that calculus the risk overweighs the rewards and risk averter will shun this action.
I also think , seriously, that the Palestinians should ask the Israelis that they want to become full Israeli citizens .If that does not get the Israelis to reevaluate their position then nothing would.

PROPHET.T

I truly wish that Palestinians would consider your idea of asking Israel for full citizenship. Israel would then reevaluate it s position ,if not, most Israeli Jews would relocate to Europe or america, if all Palestinians became full Israelis citizen.

Anonymous

After 3 generations in camps, where are the ones asking for Syrian, Jordanian, or Lebanese citizenship?

5thdrawer,
I have written on this subject many times. The Arab record in dealing with the Palestinians is nothing to be proud of. But that is a different topic.

Anonymous

Did Isreal not offer more than one time to give the Palestinians up to 93% of west bank and the answer was always NO.
1937- British gave 96% of westbank Amin al Husseini said NO
1947 UN offered 50% of Isreal again they said NO
1967 well when the PLO charter Article 15 says .. ‘ the liquidation of the Zionist presensce in Palestine” and rockets going over every day, the take over. REmember the PLO was found in June1964 while the west bank was in Arab hands WHY?..

After this the Arabs said NO to peace with Isreal NO to recognition of Isreal NO to NEGOTIATION with Isreal….
1993 OSLO Occord and still the PLO said NO
1993 1998 rockets kept going over and over
Proposed in the Fall of 2000 following the collapse of the Camp David talks, The Clinton Parameters included a plan on which the Palestinian State was to include 94-96% of the West Bank. again NO
2008 100% land swap but NO.

So if one side always says we want the destruction of the Jewish state how can you come up with a solution?

master09,
It was very difficult for the Palestinians to accept losing half of their land only on the basis that a group of UN countries said so. But as you well now when the Palestinian were in a total rejection state of mind Israel was for partition but when later on the Palestinians changed the charter of the PLO and accepted the state of Israel the Israelis started have cold feet. Isn’t it ironic that both sides appear to have switched positions. The Palestinians are for a two stae solution but Israel wants to have it all. the camp david proposal gave the Palestinians a country that looks like swiss cheese. It was full of Israeli settlements and practically no sovereignty.
I truly believe that at the moment the real obstacle to peace are not the Palestinians but the israeliswho are defying international law and creating conditions that are gnawing at the Jewish soul.

master, i agree palestinans have made many mistakes in the past and i am no fan of the militant pit bulls.

without hope you have nothing and lets face it so many decades of horrible living conditions and mental anguish take its toll on anybody.

i really feel for the civilians and wish that they had better representation that should have stopped the crapping and started wiping long ago.

i know it is a complicated cluster but if yasser,,, i mean no sir arafat would have made a deal and settled the issues 15 years ago world contributions could have turned their wasteland into a tourist wonderland for the world to visit.

everyone living there would not give a dam about the past and would enjoy their life for a change, i dont see why they could not out do dubai if you give them hope and pride of a place to call their own.
as long as they have nothing.
they have nothing to lose
i have to agree with ghassan,sebouh and prophet that insult will be added to injury as the us caters to israel just as hamas caters to iran

Anonymous

I say history in not on Israel’s side; If smart will grab what is asked by Palestinians of it and not wait for the future to decide its future ( be it 20-50 yrs.) and mass self destruction that can strip Israel from current existence!

Anonymous

Ghassan
You say >>>> I truly believe that at the moment the real obstacle to peace are not the Palestinians but the israelis who are defying international law and creating conditions that are gnawing at the Jewish soul.

I would like to make this point if your neighbour has been for the last 70 years wanting to destroy your family sending rocks over your fence and the policy is NO to peace with you NO to recognition of you NO to NEGOTIATION with you…. what would you do sit back and let them take over your world. I think we both know the answer Isreal has been sitting and talking but what ever option they come up with the aswer has always been NO with no compromise, it is what the PLO want or NOTHING, how does that work.
If I don’t get what I want Im walking out, instead of sitting and trying to come up with other option, I start firing rockets over the fence.
Correct me if Im wrong but that is what I have seen time after time.
Yes Isreal is also trying to come up with what they want but is’ t that what any group or country would do, so yes not just Isreal but also the Palestinians want tooo much both are making problems so we can not point the finger at one group, yes. It takes two to come up with an answer for the people not just thier own political agenda. NO Arab country gives a crap about the Palestinian people not one. the world gives $325 million in aid while the Arabs give a massive $3.25 million and not a single job to the Palestinians. The Arabs don’t care about the people this is nothing but an agenda for the destruction of the JEWISH state simple. .

Anonymous

Ghassan
You say >>>> I truly believe that at the moment the real obstacle to peace are not the Palestinians but the israelis who are defying international law and creating conditions that are gnawing at the Jewish soul.

I would like to make this point if your neighbour has been for the last 70 years wanting to destroy your family sending rocks over your fence and the policy is NO to peace with you NO to recognition of you NO to NEGOTIATION with you…. what would you do sit back and let them take over your world. I think we both know the answer Isreal has been sitting and talking but what ever option they come up with the aswer has always been NO with no compromise, it is what the PLO want or NOTHING, how does that work.
If I don’t get what I want Im walking out, instead of sitting and trying to come up with other option, I start firing rockets over the fence.
Correct me if Im wrong but that is what I have seen time after time.
Yes Isreal is also trying to come up with what they want but is’ t that what any group or country would do, so yes not just Isreal but also the Palestinians want tooo much both are making problems so we can not point the finger at one group, yes. It takes two to come up with an answer for the people not just thier own political agenda. NO Arab country gives a crap about the Palestinian people not one. the world gives $325 million in aid while the Arabs give a massive $3.25 million and not a single job to the Palestinians. The Arabs don’t care about the people this is nothing but an agenda for the destruction of the JEWISH state simple. .

Darw101

I do agree with the premise of this article that the palestinians have done more damage to their cause than israelis have and as a result have suffered the consequences. The divisions among rival palestinian factions (PLO vs. HAMAS) have also underscored that fact and gave Israel a great deal of flexibility in negotiations and has emphased a lack of palestinian credibility.

Anonymous

I do agree with the premise of this article that the palestinians have done more damage to their cause than israelis have and as a result have suffered the consequences. The divisions among rival palestinian factions (PLO vs. HAMAS) have also underscored that fact and gave Israel a great deal of flexibility in negotiations and has emphased a lack of palestinian credibility.

5thDrawer

I wonder if anyone told President Abbas and PM Fayad exactly how much it costs annually to be a member of the UN?

Anonymous

I wonder if anyone told President Abbas and PM Fayad exactly how much it costs annually to be a member of the UN?