C. Peter Wagner was quite forthcoming on many issues in his October 3 Fresh Air interview with Terry Gross. He talked openly about the New Apostolic Reformation's agenda for the movement's apostles to have authority over churches; suggested that Sarah Palin should have been anointed by leadership in private, so that it would not have created such controversy; talked about his work with Ted Haggard and claimed his prophets knew of Haggard's homosexuality in advance; and confirmed that he was present at Rick Perry's prayer event. But Wagner downplayed the meaning of "taking dominion" over society and was dishonest about the movement's well-established demonization of other religions. He even claimed to support religious pluralism.

This is inconsistent with years of Wagner's teaching that other religions and belief systems are demonically controlled, and that those demons must be removed from communities in order to bring about the curing of social ills and to advance the "Kingdom on earth."

Read a full transcript of the interview or link to audio. Following is a comparison of some of Wagner's claims on Fresh Air compared to his previous teaching and media.

During the Fresh Air interview, Terry Gross asked about the movement's agenda for taking "dominion" over the "Seven Mountains." Wagner responded,

"In terms of taking dominion, we don't - we wouldn't want to - we use the word dominion, but we wouldn't want to say that we have dominion as if we're the owners or we're the rulers of, let's say, the arts and entertainment mountain."

Following is Wagner in 2008, speaking about dominion at a NAR conference. Note the use of the phrase "ruling as kings."

"Dominion has to do with control. Dominion has to do with rulership. Dominion has to do with authority and subduing and it relates to society. In other words, what the values are in Heaven need to be made manifest here on earth. Dominion means being the head and not the tail. Dominion means ruling as kings. It says in Revelation Chapter 1:6 that He has made us kings and priests - and check the rest of that verse; it says for dominion. So we are kings for dominion."

Wagner downplayed the movement's demonization of other religions. Terry Gross began the interview by playing the video of Wagner claiming that Japan's economic downturn was due to the control of the nation by the Sun Goddess, which he describes as a powerful demonic principality. He described both Hinduism and Buddhism as part of the "kingdom of darkness." Wagner then extended this explanation of the demonic control of other religions to Nepal, stating,

"An apostle, a friend of mine in Nepal, once told me that every Christian believer in Nepal that he knows of has been delivered from demons, that their former Hindu religion had implanted or the demons had gained access and that in order to become Christian believers, the demons had to be cast out."

But when the conversation turned to the U.S., suddenly Wagner was a supporter of religious pluralism.

"So therefore we would like Muslims to become Christians, but in the meantime, if they're here in America, we don't oppose them. I'm sorry that some radicals speak up strongly against having a mosque in their neighborhood, and I don't think that's patriotism. I think America needs to make room for liberty."

This makes no sense in the context of the movement's virulent statements and spiritual warfare against Islam. Currently the NAR is preparing for TheCall Detroit on 11/11/11, in partnership with Transformation Michigan, the Oak Initiative, and the NAR's state prayer warrior networks. These networks are under the apostolic authority of Apostles Cindy Jacobs and John Benefiel, who are in turn in "apostolic alignment" with Peter Wagner.
Wagner on Fresh Air,

"Well, I must say that both John Benefiel and Cindy Jacobs are very close to me. They're both aligned apostolically with me. So I am part of what they do, and they're part of what I do."

In conference calls with Transformation Michigan, John Benefiel stated emphatically that evil must not be tolerated.

"God expects us to hate what he hates and love what he loves. When we hate the idolatry that's around us and we are determine to spiritually tear down the altars to Baal, tear down those evil high places, it begins to catch on and we begin to win. But the important thing is that we cannot tolerate known evil in our society and not do anything about it."

The evil and idolatry that the movement believes that it must tear down includes freemasonry and Islam.

Demonizing Freemasonry and Islam

Another Transformation Michigan/Oak Initiative conference featured Bill Sudduth, who heads the International Society of Deliverance Ministries that Wagner described in the Fresh Air interview as being founded by him and his wife, Doris.

"Their seven-day-a-week occupation is casting demons out of people. And they have professional expertise in this and they happen to meeting - be meeting right now. My wife is one of them. She's written a whole book called 'How to Cast Out Demons.'

A Transformation Michigan/Oak Initiative conference call with Bill Sudduth in April was part of the ongoing preparations for TheCall Detroit. (Graphic right: Sudduth is currently on a 50-state tour training prayer warriors to fight freemasonry.) In this call, Sudduth describes the reasons why the prayer warriors are attacking freemasonry as part of their spiritual warfare assault on Islam. Sudduth describes the spiritual warfare.

"After the teachings we actually do the prayer of release. There is a prayer of release for freemasonry ... but there's also a prayer of release of Islam and the spirits behind it and we corporately break that as well. And then we do Identificational Repentance and we have three specific categories. We have a government official or state employee of Michigan actually repent for the state's involvement, we have a pastor repent for the churches involvement, and then we have an ex-mason or Eastern Star, someone who was personally involved in masonic repent for the damage it has done to families and then corporately we pray and we just literally pull it down over the state."

Later in the conference call, the head of Transformation Michigan, Rick Warzywak comments on the need for participants to go to the property of the mosques and Sudduth states that it is important to "take the ground" and "claim an area around the mosque." Warzywak responds,

"We go back and occupy and take the land, right?"

Sudduth answers,

Every advance in the kingdom of God is met with resistance, and the problem is the church has not resisted the advance of the ememy. By us physically going to these Masonic lodges like we did, physically going to these mosques like we’re planning and these other altars, if you will, we are advancing the kingdom and pushing back the darkness.

Warzywak and Sudduth are speaking in spiritual warfare terms, but it leaves no doubt that Islam and freemasonry are viewed as demonic and not to be tolerated. Toward the end of the conference call, the head of Transformation Michigan explains that Lou Engle, leader of TheCall, and his team are to arrive 40 days before the event. Sudduth states,

"We are literally dropping in a Delta Force."

He adds,

"We are to be called a house of prayer. When we had our meetings city-hopping across the state with Lou Engle last week, I have seen a phenomenal unity of the body even amongst races, and awareness of the Islamic threat that we have and the importance of praying and lifting up a house of prayer."

The Michigan state prayer leader on the call states,

"We need the harvest of the Muslim people. We can't just sit by and let them continue the on the way they are, worshipping their false god."

Lou Engle, who leads TheCall is also a prophet in the Wagner-initiated Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders and works with Mike Bickle at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. Engle has described the effort to legalize gay marriage in California as releasing,

"a spirit more demonic than Islam."

Not Just Freemasonry and Islam

As previously reported on Talk2action, Wagner and his leading apostles have called for the destruction of items and artifacts of Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, and other religions and belief systems.

In his 2011 book Spiritual Warfare Strategy (an updated version of his book Confronting the Powers), Wagner describes the movement's warfare prayer group in Penang, Malaysia, targeting a statue of the Goddess of Mercy at Kek Lok Si Temple, one of the largest in Malaysia. Wagner writes,

"Some members of our Spiritual Warfare Network in Penang did have eyes to see. In a prayer meeting in their church, they were directed to target their prayers into the center of the island, where the temple and the statue were located. They received a rhema word from God."

Wagner continues, claiming that after their prayers the "idol" had developed a huge crack and that tons of concrete fell to the ground. He adds,

"Subsequent efforts by the temple authorities to repair and rebuild the statue have come to naught. Later in 1993, the statue actually caught on fire and now is an ugly, charred eyesore. The only tourist who have made their way there in years are Christians eager to see with their own eyes the tangible results of warfare prayer agianst the attempted glorification of one of the chief demonic principalities over Malaysia."

(Actually this is a major tourist site and the burned statue has been replaced with a bronze one.)

Wagner dedicated one of his many books, Confronting the Queen of Heaven, to information about fighting a demonic principality which he claims blocks the evangelization of Roman Catholics and Muslims. Following a spiritual warfare excursion in 1997, Wagner quoted the lead prophetess, Ana Mendez.

"Ana points to some world events which occurred within two weeks after the prophetic act at the throne of the Queen of Heaven which she senses have some connection: (1) The nation of Indonesia, the largest Muslim nation in the world, caught on fire and began to burn on that very day; (2) An earthquake destroyed the Basilica of Assisi in Italy, the place where the Pope had called a meeting for the unity of all world religions; (3) Hurricane Paulina destroyed the infamous temple of "Baal-Christ" in Acapulco, Mexico; (4) Princess Diana of England died, representing the crown of England, to whom Mt. Everest was consecrated by Sir Edmund Hillary; and (5) Mother Theresa, one of the most visible advocates of exalting Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix, died in India."

Contrast this with Wagner's answers to Terry Gross in which he claims to "respect all religions."

"Well, we - yes, we respect all religions, but we also respect the freedom of exercising our religion. And part of our religion is called evangelization. It's called presenting Jesus Christ to others and persuading them to become followers of Jesus Christ and walk into the kingdom of God. So - so we'd like to maintain our right in a plural - in religious pluralism of exercising our privilege of winning other people to Christianity."

[10/16/2011: A slight correction and addition was made to the quotes from the Sudduth/Warzywak conference call conversation.]

Even Lance Wallnau, Os Hillman, and Johnny Enlow are trying to backtrack and claim that dominionism is not what it sounds like. But of course this would mean promoting something quite different than what they've been marketing for years, which has been a mandate to "occupy," "take the land," "rule" and "control."

Wagner ended the Fresh Air interview discussing the need for Jews to be converted to Christianity and how Messianic Jews are fulfilling that purpose. Given New Apostolic Reformation's views on Islam, I wonder what role Christian Zionism is playing in the escalating violence of the settlers on the West Bank against the Palestinians.

A number of mosques have been burned and now the violence has spread into Israel.

While C. Peter Wagner told Terry Gross that he "personally would not endorse each one of her statements and especially the statement about the Democratic Party being demonized, any more than the Republican Party is", he in fact has done just that.

Wagner's endorsement is on the back cover of Alice Patterson's 2010 book, "Bridging the Racial and Political Divide", which contains an entire section concerning the alleged "demonic structure" behind the Democratic Party.

Writes Wagner, in his endorsement--which I again emphasize is printed on the back cover of Patterson's book, "This is a penetrating, provoking, and practical book that all who have hope for reforming our society in our times, must read and absorb."

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