Quite. Brewtan B is NOT low oxygen brewing. I definitely notice a far bigger jump in beer quality with low oxygen brewing than I did with Brewtan B. I'm all stainless now too though, so I've been considering not even using the Brewtan. But I have it, so I might as well...

But back on topic, I would like to get my hands on sinamar. Is it something that needs to be used FRESH like liquid malt extract? It's sad that 1% has such an effect. But I guess it'll make me find new ways to brew and create recipes. I was going to do a Marzen that is about 11 SRM tomorrow, but I maybe just cut the roast malt coloring addition altogether and make it about 7 SRM for a lighter variation, just for kicks. Maybe I don't even need roast malt. The only dark beers I really brew that I don't want too much roastiness in are black IPA and occasionally schwarzbier (rarely).

This would definitely be a time to revisit throwing roasted malts in at the end of the mash. Might complicate full volume pH measurements though, bring the pH down further, than the already mashed pH of 5.2...

Yes, I'm finding that as little as 1% roasted malts have a huge effect. I have an altbier that is about 11 SRM on tap that used around 1% carafa III and the roast character is quite apparent to me. The same was true with my last Vienna lager that used around 1% for coloring and was about 10 SRM. Never had it be so apparent before low oxygen. My black IPA, which is 7% midnight wheat, is super coffee/chocolate, more than usual; it's definitely overpowering the hops that are usually much more pronounced.

My new Cleopatra APA, my first stab at low oxygen brewing, at 3 weeks. Yeah, the foam is killer. The only haze is from dry hopping. But there's a lot going on at once - I preboiled the water, used 50ppm SMB, but also (per the recently posted Bamforth paper) used a late addition of Brewtan (gallotannin) and PVPP (actually used the Brewbrite mixture of Polyclar and whirlfloc). So I undoubtedly broke the rules by changing multiple variables at once. Thing is, the beer is fantastic and there are justifications for all those changes. So I'm going forward with this as my MO.

Interestingly, this is my house APA recipe, brewed it many times, and the color is slightly but noticeably lighter, giving more credence to the low oxygen brewers reported results of lighter colored beers. Aside from that, yes, the malt quality is very fresh and well defined. It has IT. As a footnote, the Cleopatra hops are very nice - first hops I've bought from Ted Hausotter. Citrusy, tropical/mango, slight pine, slight spiciness. Best APA I've ever made, period. I'm sold.

Yeah, that looks nice and it's hard to argue with your findings. One thing you mentioned that I have noticed since making some changes in my own system is slightly more pale beers. Some "gold lagers" that I have made have come out very, very pale. I had one on tap and even my 16-year-old son who generally doesn't notice what I'm drinking said, "Wow, dad... that's a light one. It's like apple cider or something". Beers that used to be dark(ish) are now more of an amber color. Not sure specifically what is doing that but it's been consistent along with the smoothness, softness and silkiness of the beers. Cheers.

My new Cleopatra APA, my first stab at low oxygen brewing, at 3 weeks. Yeah, the foam is killer. The only haze is from dry hopping. But there's a lot going on at once - I preboiled the water, used 50ppm SMB, but also (per the recently posted Bamforth paper) used a late addition of Brewtan (gallotannin) and PVPP (actually used the Brewbrite mixture of Polyclar and whirlfloc). So I undoubtedly broke the rules by changing multiple variables at once. Thing is, the beer is fantastic and there are justifications for all those changes. So I'm going forward with this as my MO.

Interestingly, this is my house APA recipe, brewed it many times, and the color is slightly but noticeably lighter, giving more credence to the low oxygen brewers reported results of lighter colored beers. Aside from that, yes, the malt quality is very fresh and well defined. It has IT. As a footnote, the Cleopatra hops are very nice - first hops I've bought from Ted Hausotter. Citrusy, tropical/mango, slight pine, slight spiciness. Best APA I've ever made, period. I'm sold.

Great to hear (read), Jon! I've definitely noticed a difference, in my black IPA especially and some beers that I've used 1% debittered black or dehusked carafa III for coloring; low oxygen really brings out the minuscule amount of roast malt character...yeah I can taste it quite clearly at 1%. And in my black IPA, the midnight wheat is WAY more chocolately and coffee-y than usual...going to need to find a substitute for my dark beers that I don't want that much roast character. Sinamar I hear is good, but maybe for now I'll play with scaling back the amount of roast malt.

Another - Of the low O2 brewers with SS chillers, how much is sulfur a problem in your beers? I ask as some copper contact (ie., copper chiller) is known to reduce sulfur levels.

0- Sulfur is more yeast and its post hot side driven(fermentation). Some yeast can handle it, some can't. Thats why we speak of dialing in process, and lowering dosage. IF you still need the high dosage it may be wise to start cutting with ascorbic, and meta.

Makes me confident to buy a SS IC. Thanks for your help.

Maybe look into 1/2" tubing, which is pricier, but the chill times are much longer if you go from 1/2" copper to 3/8" SS.

You really have to get Beck's in the can. It doesn't seem to be available everywhere unfortunately. I am VERY close to being 100% done with bottles at this point. There are VERY few exceptions, of course.

Oh yeah! I've been drinking Becks lately, it's about the freshest beer, German-style, we can get here and made here. I decided to give it a try one day when I saw a local bar had it in cans for cheap.

Just wanted to post that I picked up a fresh 12 pack of "Made is USA" Becks before the weekend and although it was good, I don't think it really had much "IT". I was mostly surprised by the lack of light skunking. I am actually most surprised how similar my NGP is to it. Especially since my NGP was really a anti-lager of sorts: Dry yeast/warm ferment/american grain&hops/grain to glass in 14 days... Honestly was hoping for quite the different experience where it would really fire me up for LO, but not so. That said, my recollection of Bittburger is that it had IT in spades...

In cans? It has IT to me, not as much as Bitburger, but definitely has some of IT. And I've only seen it in 4 packs of cans.

The alternative, of course, is to start from distilled or RO, and then you'll never see this weird coloration, except perhaps for the pink color reported by some. I wonder if this might be just from impurities in the Brewtan itself, which seems it may be made from sumac fruit, which is red. Now I'm pretty far out on a limb, but I do wonder.

Maybe it's the Brewtan reacting with O2? But yeah, I see it in almost every beer, the weird pink color. I figured it was normal.

I told my local homebrew shop owner about Brewtan B and that Denny said it should be available for whole sale around the first of the year. I hope you're right Denny! I really want the homebrew shop to get it in stock.

It's probably more accurate to say it won't be before the first of the year. Other than that, it's out of my hands.

Well I just hope it's sooner than later...don't know why it has to take so long, there's obviously a demand for it.

The alternative, of course, is to start from distilled or RO, and then you'll never see this weird coloration, except perhaps for the pink color reported by some. I wonder if this might be just from impurities in the Brewtan itself, which seems it may be made from sumac fruit, which is red. Now I'm pretty far out on a limb, but I do wonder.

Maybe it's the Brewtan reacting with O2? But yeah, I see it in almost every beer, the weird pink color. I figured it was normal.

I told my local homebrew shop owner about Brewtan B and that Denny said it should be available for whole sale around the first of the year. I hope you're right Denny! I really want the homebrew shop to get it in stock.