Are Nice Guys sociopaths?

A reader alerted me to this post on a very interesting blog I haven’t written about before. Regular readers of Man Boobz may find some of these, er, arguments to be a bit familiar:

Our culture is absolutely fucked up. Girls and women hold all control of sex. … [F]rom the first interest in girls, we’re expected to pursue them, and they’re expected to reject us. …

I’m a perfectly healthy man. I’m stronger than a lot of other men, more intelligent, more competent, I think I’m reasonably good looking, and I’m very well endowed. None of that matters though. Somehow, women go for men that fail on a comparison on multiple accounts. …

There are things like rejecting a woman, or pretending to be uninterested that make her even more interested. … Women subconsciously measure a man’s performance in bed by his dancing and posturing. If only they knew how fucking stupid and wrong they are.

I don’t know what happened with me. I’ve always had a strong sex drive, but I got fucked over socially. I wasn’t even “in” in the reject crowd. All girls rejected me, and most rejects rejected me. People made fun of me, laughed at me, picked on me, and all the girls that I lusted after were either repulsed by me, or didn’t know who I was. Even the girls that were “friends” with me, wouldn’t have sex with me. Meanwhile, they went around whoring themselves out to whatever man played this fucking dumb-ass social flirting game. They [crude sexual remarks redacted —DF] like the dirty little whores they are. I’ve been available my whole life, but the only person that ever chose me as a mate were paid prostitutes, and my wife, who is emotionally and mentally fucked up beyond comprehension.

On the surface, this reads like almost every “nice guy” lament I’ve ever seen on the internet. Oh, it’s a bit more bitter than most, but this “nice guy” hits all the right notes: like the Holocuast-trivializing “nice guy” we looked at last Sunday, he complains that women get to actually choose whom to have sex with; like the “nice guy” Redditor we looked at Monday, he still holds a grudge against former crushes who chose to go out with (and have sex with) guys who weren’t him.

The difference? For one thing, this new guy is a bit more self-aware than most “nice guys,” in that he doesn’t actually describe himself as “nice.” For another, he is (or at least claims to be) a sociopath. As might have been immediately apparent had I quoted these comments, which immediately follow what I quoted from him above:

This is the reason I don’t care about people. Why the fuck should I? Everybody [wears] a mask. I want to rape and murder people, and I pretend I’m “normal.” Normal people wear a mask where they pretend they’re friendly and honest; whereas, they’re really deceptive, insecure, and emotionally hostile.

This posting comes from Sociopathworld, a fascinating blog written by a sociopath who is basically trying to explain to non-sociopaths how people like him or her think, to clear up misconceptions about them, and to help sociopaths themselves deal better with their disorder. (The author of the blog didn’t write the comments above; they were sent in by a reader.)

For those not intimately familiar with abnormal psych, “sociopathy” (often used synonymously with the term “psychopathy”) is a term commonly used to describe what is known clinically as Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). The blogger at SociopathWorld quotes a journal article that gives this useful capsule description of psychopaths as people

characterised by an absence of empathy and poor impulse control, with a total lack of conscience. … They tend to be egocentric, callous, manipulative, deceptive, superficial, irresponsible and parasitic, even predatory.

So are “nice guys” a bunch of sociopaths? Well, no. They may be egocentric – like the “nice guy” on Tumblr who compared his lack of dates to the Holocaust. They may lack empathy – like the “nice guy” Redditor who couldn’t feel sympathy for a female “friend” who had been raped. They may be manipulative – hoping that by being excessively “nice” and doing favors for women they will earn themselves some sex.

But they lack, among other things, the impulsiveness and routine deceitfulness that tend to characterize real sociopaths. Sociopaths can be deceptively charming, but very few people would ever describe them as nice. (Indeed, if anything, it’s pickup artists that act the most like real sociopaths; indeed, I’ve heard “game” described before, I think accurately, as an attempt to get guys to think and act more like charming, conscienceless sociopaths.)

So why do “nice guy” laments make them sound so much like sociopaths? I think their egocentricity and their almost total lack of empathy are key. “Nice guys” get crushes on a lot of girls and women, but these crushes often seem to have nothing to do with the objects of these intense feelings: the “nice guys” have whipped up a romantic and sexual drama in their own head, and simply projected it onto some convenient romantic object . The “nice guy” Redditor was once obsessed with his female “friend” – but when she was raped he did not react as a true friend would, with sympathy and sadness. He responded with a callous “she had it coming.”

Combine this lack of empathy with a sense of wounded entitlement – I DESERVE a cute girlfriend! – and you have a recipe for a pretty noxious stew.

“Nice guys” may not literally be sociopaths. But sometimes they think and act in some pretty sociopathic ways.

He also does not mention the mostly likely way an artificial womb could be made; a womb from a cadaver or patient kept alive via a life-support system. We can do this with other organs (like the heart) for a few hours, it is much easier to improve on this technology than try to build a womb via tissue engineering.

You can also strip down a “natural” organ like a heart into a scaffold, and then rebuild it with donor cells… at least in rats. :p So something like that would also probably make more sense than trying to build a uterus entirely from the ground up. See the rat heart here:

“You can also strip down a “natural” organ like a heart into a scaffold, and then rebuild it with donor cells… at least in rats. :p So something like that would also probably make more sense than trying to build a uterus entirely from the ground up.”

One of the often mentioned characteristics of sociopath’s is their “promiscuity”–usually a few lines after glib, superficially charming….

Isn’t one of the determining characteristics of “Nice Guys” their inability to get sex?

As far as Sociopathworld…. interesting site but I wouldn’t take things left by readers there super serious. There is a checklist by Dr. Robert Hare to measure sociopathy–wouldn’t just go by what someone seeking attention on the internet is saying to determine a diagnosis….

If you want to read some of the aftermath stories of those unfortunate enough to get involved with sociopath’s go to lovefraud.com…..

Anyways, this just seems to be one more example of your twisted worldview where you try to putt one group of people you don’t like next to another group generally reviled by society….

…….

Interestingly enough, you called sociopathy a disorder, it is considered a pathology by some but there are those who think there are evolutionary benefits and it is another mode of being….

In the book On Killing, David Grossman postulated that sociopath’s make great soldiers during wartime as they have little reluctance to kill and don’t seem to suffer from PTSD or shellshock….

I have also heard people mention that (yes, I know he is a fictional character) Dr. House may be a sociopath but his lack of empathy allows him to see clearly and also bend rules and ethics to get things done-perhaps benevolent sociopathy…..

Stonerwithaboner, Nice Guys(tm) are closeted sociopath. Real sociopath/psychopath (like Ted Bundy) are handsome guys that have no problems attracting victims – and that’s why they are promiscuous. Nice Guys(tm) have asperger or are social retard, they cannot attract anyone. But they have the same opinion about women that sociopath/psychopath have.

I didn’t say that Aspergers are sociopath, I said that most Nice Guys(TM) have Asperger and therefore are not very handsome so they cannot be sociopath like Ted Bundy, they can only fantasize online about being sociopath.

I’m going to just say that while I stood quiet while we said narcissism, and sociopathy, Asperger’s is where I have to draw the line. This is, by far, the most popular internet armchair diagnosis. It is almost certainly inaccurate. Cite a serious claim that self identified NIce Guy status correlates to Asperger’s, or drop it. You don’t need a disorder to be an entitled douchebag, and no disorder is the most parsimonious case in general.

I didn’t say that Aspergers are sociopath, I said that most Nice Guys(TM) have Asperger and therefore are not very handsome so they cannot be sociopath like Ted Bundy, they can only fantasize online about being sociopath.

I… think that literally every part of this is wrong:

1) Most Nice Guys don’t have Asperger’s (and the reverse is true as well.)
2) Asperger’s has nothing to do with physical attractiveness…
3) …and neither does sociopathy.
4) Nice Guys/ guys with Asperger’s don’t all fantasize about being sociopaths.

Stoner, did you actually read my post? I didn’t claim that “nice guys” are sociopaths; indeed I specifically said they weren’t. I noted that some specific things about a posting by a sociopath reminded me of things I’ve seen “nice guys” say. (And by “nice guys,” I’m referring to a specific sort of guy who thinks he’s nice, but really isn’t, in part because he seems to have no empathy for the women he fixates on.) I could explain more, or you could jsut go back and read what I actually wrote.

And I’m most definitely NOT mocking people with social difficulties for having social difficulties. I’ve had social difficulties; practically everyone I know has dealt with them. Including women, of course.

I am mocking (or at least criticizing) guys with social difficulties who turn around and blame women for it all, getting angry that women actually — gasp! — get to choose who they go out with. Or feeling sort of glad an old crush got raped because she “had it coming.”

If a guy has social difficulties, and instead of turning into a misogynist creep, actually develops empathy for others with the same difficulties, that’s fantastic. It’s the awkward dudes who turn into hateful misogynist creeps I’m not so fond of.

Dude, I’ve been over this in other threads. I have Asperger’s. I can’t control that. What I can control is whether or not I’m a total knob to other people. When you say that, you are assuming that we can’t control our actions, or learn, or be ethical, which is very insulting.

Personality disorders like NPD aren’t caused by organic dysfunction as far as scientists can tell, so it’s not strange to cite them. When it comes to personality disorders, which are determined by and diagnosed based entirely on behavior, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. Whether the symptoms are clinical or subclinical is another matter…

People with anti-social personality disorder are perfectly capable of using empathy “selectively”, afaik. Empathy and sympathy are different; someone can empathize with someone without sympathizing enough to care about their welfare.

I think people get the wrong idea if they try to look at symptom checklists online and interpret them very narrowly applying them without any clinical experience. Which is why it’s better if laypeople refrain from playing diagnosticians.

I also read the post at Sociopathworld where many on the thread questioned whether the post was written by an actual sociopath or someone merely seeking attention. As I mentioned above, someone could easily claim to be a sociopath just as someone could easily go to a PUA forum and claim to have 100+ sex partners-doesn’t mean that either are authentic…..

“And I’m most definitely NOT mocking people with social difficulties for having social difficulties. I’ve had social difficulties; practically everyone I know has dealt with them. Including women, of course. ”

Maybe you didn’t specifically mock someone but No More Mr. Niceguy’s comments about Aspergers seemed to do so and there has been blowback in the thread–hence the bullying comment…..

“I am mocking (or at least criticizing) guys with social difficulties who turn around and blame women for it all, getting angry that women actually — gasp! — get to choose who they go out with. Or feeling sort of glad an old crush got raped because she “had it coming.”

Thanks for the clarification. I believe that you and Amanda Marcotte need to be much more clear when you describe “Nice Gus TM” as you may be trying to portray a “Shallow Hal” character and your readers, or at least I was seeing more of a “Forty Year Old Virgin” character. The view I get is that the “Forty Year Old Virgin” character doesn’t necessarily deserve tons of pity but it is extremely unfair to treat him with scorn…..

And I’m most definitely NOT mocking people with social difficulties for having social difficulties. I’ve had social difficulties; practically everyone I know has dealt with them. Including women, of course.

If everyone you know has had social difficulties, then by definition your definition of social difficulties is wrong or too broad. It’s pretty obvious stoner is talking about being in the bottom 5% of social skills or awkwardness, not the occasional glitches we all run into from time to time.

I was in that 5% in my teens and early twenties and I was constantly mocked, bullied and treated like crap by women. I was called and labeled a “probable pervert”, a “creep” etc without saying or doing anything except daring be different, quiet and socially awkward. Sometimes by women I’ve never even communicated with (just being in the same group or room or class)

Not only was I treated like crap by women, but I was told it was my fault for “daring to be a creep”. They then took perfectly neutral actions of mine and labeled them “creepy” and blamed it on me.

Funny, by my mid-twenties I worked through my social anxiety and I was no longer labeled creepy. All of a sudden I became “cool”. But I was the same guy saying and doing the exact same things.

Funny how when I was shy women bullied me, mocked me, ridiculed me for the same things that after the shyness were no longer a problem.

Often I see examples of people here saying “Oh, I know a shy guy, and no women do that to him”. But whenever I see that in real life, the guy they’re talking about is almost always only “mildly shy”, not actual social anxiety level shy.

You will find out that it’s very common that shy people are often mistakenly labeled arrogant or jerks. The shy girl will for example sit in the corner quiet or be very inexpressive when someone talks to her. Instead of assuming that she’s quiet, many people will label her a “bitch” – and not realize she’s actually shy! Same thing happens with shy guys. They’re assumed to be “jerks” or lack empathy, instead of realizing they’re too anxious to display it.

Nice Guys are like sociopaths in that they share a distinguishing trait; lack of empathy for others. Like sociopaths, the lack of empathy often makes it hard for them to see women as people, equals, or individuals. That’s why they are so creepy to many women. But sociopaths feel no empathy for anyone, and Nice guys only feel empathy for other men.

Sociopaths are people who are born with no ability for empathy but display and fake empathy really well.

NiceGuys (from my casual observance) tend to be shy guys who due to their shyness have a problem showing empathy.

I’m not expert on nice guysTM, but here’s what I seem to see as a cycle to how they develop:

=> Shy guy has no ability to show empathy due to anxiety

=> Women treat him like crap because they think he’s a jerk (they misread his non-display of empathy as him having no empathy or being a jerk)

=> From his perspective he’s constantly “treated like crap by women” for no good reason. Eventually he develops the belief that all women hate him.

=> He develops resentment back towards women. In his mind it’s payback due women having had no empathy for him.

I think that’s the main difference. Most of these guys are not born having no empathy. In their experience they develop non-empathy after having had non shown to them.

What these guys don’t realize is that it’s one big misunderstanding. The only reason the women treated him badly is because he came off as a “jerk” because of social anxiety. The women weren’t being mean first. The women (in their mind) were being “mean back to him”.

Alex, that post by a ‘Nice Guy’ who was glad that his old crush got raped is by no means the first or only example we have of ‘Nice Guys’ having less-than-0 empathy. You’re desperately flailing to protect yourself; if you weren’t a misogynist jackass when you were awkward, we aren’t talking about you. Stop making it about you.

=> Shy guy has no ability to show empathy due to anxiety

This is crap. I have anxiety attacks and am shy, and have no problem displaying empathy to friends, or people I know personally. I’m not necessarily good at consoling people, but I can at least display that I feel for them.

=> He develops resentment back towards women. In his mind it’s payback due women having had no empathy for him.

And he’s stupid, because there is no crime that justifies treating women as non-human, part of an alien hive mind.

I’m beginning to have serious doubts about the existence of sociopathy. The difference between a labeled “sociopath” and an ordinary person is that “sociopaths” are OPEN about having self-interests and the willingness to pursue them at other expense; whereas *normal* people conceal it in order to make themselves look good and evade detection when they choose to act this way. Plenty of desirable males have no empathy for women and treat em as disposable objects, and yet women just keep coming back for more. People are selfish and self-interested, and what I see is that those who are fortunate enough to be high status have a sense of entitlement. I know how much you, manboobz, and your feminist cohorts wish men you see as low status would just “know their place and stop being so uppity”, but they don’t. So DEAL WITH IT.

I used to be a nice guy, and whine about how “women like jerks”………..UNTIL I discovered the way to deal with women is instead of trying to *beat* those bad boys that women love, I joined ’em! It’s amazing how women secretly love to be treated like sh*t. Perhaps this makes me a sociopath(i.e., a BAD person)in the eyes of politically correct feminists and their sycophant manginas, but believe me, everyone one of us is selfish and self-interested and pursuing self interest at others expense is often the only way to get ahead. Those who claim otherwise are just lying spoiled brats who feel entitled to what they didn’t earn and use moral superiority as a status game. What counts in this life is being successful, not how you get there.

Perhaps BRO-MAGNON is anonymous’s alter ego! *LOL* But in all honesty the person behind those comments is 100% correct. It really IS everyone for him/her-self in this world, and nobody is entitled to anything. If you want something you don’t have or that doesn’t fall in your lap, it is up to you to figure out how to get it. It’s worth noting that freedom and equality almost never can coexist with each other. In our society people are free to chose their mates, as a result some people get more choices than others and there are always those who never get ANY choice(let alone chosen by anyone). When you have to compete with others, things like “morals” are often an obstacle. Life is full of compromises and I think you’ll find that those who start out on the bottom and do make it to the top have had to compromise any morals or decency they had to get their. Maybe poor folk from the ghetto are also *sociopaths* since they often have to turn to crime involving victims in order to escape poverty.

I would consider myself a guy. I don’t think that women are stupid, mean, or crazy. Though, I’m sure there are horrible women and horrible men, but I think that you’re picking on what you perceive as a nice guy. I don’t know or care if I’m a nice guy or not, I’m not upset that you wrote this, but honestly you lumping all of these people into one category it’s not really about nice guys it’s more about you. You are just as wrong as this guy work you copied and pasted, because you think you have the power decide who is good and who is evil, because essentially sociopath means evil to people now days it isn’t a disorder that harms society, it’s everyone we don’t like. I don’t want to fight with anyone about this, I just think that words are harmful and you shouldn’t spew hatred.

Jack: First of all, we can and do judge people based on what they do. And you did just that in your comment.

And second, a sociopath isn’t “everyone we don’t like”, it’s everyone who utterly lacks empathy and is so completely focused on his or her own needs, that he has nothing but contempt for the very idea that you shouldn’t, you know, gratuitously hurt other people. Self-described “nice guys” who whine about the unfairness of women actually having the power to refuse to have sex with them, and about women being ungrateful bitches who won’t spread their legs in exchange for not being called names, fit that profile to a t.

I hope you understand the difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy(tm). Hint: if he speaks very often of how he’s such a nice guy and always complain that can’t get enough sex partners or keep a girlfriend despite that, he’s probably not the first.

Wow! Great discussion! Guilty of being a man without women ( not gay, just sexless). Do
not really know about Asperger’s Syndrome, but admit to NEVER having had a female friend (is that term an oxymoron?) , or ever having a conversation with a woman outside
of a business setting.Loaded with sincere, caring buddies who would love to see me
“expand my horizons” ,as they care about my welfare, but all I see coming is a very large
headache if I ever venture in that direction.Can carry on a lively conversation in a
number of languages and would never hurt anyone. Just found a peace that comes with
knowing that the dating, social scene looks just terrible, and that I am very fortunate to
stay out of it. Community awards come my way and I see myself as a very reasonable person, just not tuned in to this apparent “role-playing”. I have to grudge against those
who do play and am happy to share the triumphs of others, when invited.
I guess that I am a “nice guy” who bla,es no one and has enjoyed a very full life, but
without women.

I agree with stonerwithaboner completely. His replies were pretty generous and thoughtful. Not a lot of people would share their knowledge and “constructive” criticism to strangers especially on the comments section of a blog. He most definitely threw pearls before swine.

I am a girl, not that this should matter. But I’d like to add that to compare nice guys to sociopaths in any context, even in loose analogy, is pretty disingenuous. sociopaths are smooth and slick.

I know this, my brother is dating one. She will plot and scheme. No anxiety, No remorse, and most importantly, no stress. She has slept with numerous friends of mine including my guitarist who was also a sociopath. He would pose as a music promoter and jack thousands of dollars from local rappers/ dubstep Dj’s and bands. He also sold a metric shiton of fake drugs to highschoolers.

Hate is not a lack of empathy. Don’t get me twisted. Hate may be a salient, albeit rotten, type of human bond, but its a connection none the less. Lack of empathy is apathy. Its an essentially blank slate, marred by instinct and periodic moments of wrath and boredom.

“Nice guys” live their lives in fear and insecurity. Any “boastfulness” they have or misogyny they spout are cries of a wounded and disgustingly pathetic animal. If nice guys really didn’t care, they’d be happy in their stress and care free mind. They do care, but they are so out of touch with reality and humanity that their souls have become rotten. Someone should put them out of their misery really.
Another thing that separates sociopaths with nice guys is a lack of fear.
Please don’t compare an injured rat to a snake.

Of course your loyal readers will probably try to bash this. You and(again your readers) may back pedal and say that you can brazenly compare two or three different demographics on the basis of their toxicity. But, you can’t just look at the results. Well…I suppose you don’t have to. But if you want to be enlightened about men and women and act as an authority on such subjects, you have the responsibility understand the underlying concepts that motivate human beings rather than add your own form of poison.

A sociopath doesn’t whine. People whine when they don’t get what they want. Its pathetic and its hopeless. A winner can’t be a loser, at least not in this universe. Please try again. as a writer and an online personality I think you should make it your mission to be Logical and nonsensical with your articles while still remaining passionate.

You are passionate about your blog, i can see that. But their is more to crusades than passion. Which brings me to what vibe I am feeling the most.
you sound very well intentioned but misinformed. This is perfectly fine. But when you bash, or allow other people to bash, people more educated than you who are only trying to help you and your publication; its a bad look.

I know this, my brother is dating one. She will plot and scheme. No anxiety, No remorse, and most importantly, no stress. She has slept with numerous friends of mine including my guitarist who was also a sociopath. He would pose as a music promoter and jack thousands of dollars from local rappers/ dubstep Dj’s and bands. He also sold a metric shiton of fake drugs to highschoolers.

Armchair diagnoses are really fucking useless. It sounds like both these folks are shitty people — or at least, the guitarist is. Your brother’s girlfriend is too if was sleeping with all those people in violation of the boundaries she and your brother have placed on their relationship, not just… sleeping with lots of people. If it’s the latter, nice slut shaming too! But anyway, there is nothing substantial indicating that either of them is a sociopath, rather than a shitty neurotypical person.

I used to be a Nice Guy. Most people still seem to say I’m a decent person, the one thing that’s really changed is that now I don’t feel as if I’m owed a relationship because of it. I figure, if I want to find happiness, I should find it on my own, and if a relationship happens, then great, and if not, then oh well. I’d rather have a happy single life and have friends of the opposite sex than continually get myself down by actively pursuing a relationship in such a way that ends up consuming my very identity.

Sorry for necroing David, but posts like those of Anonymous, Bro Magnon, and Monsieur Sans Nom, really make me nervous and upset, on how they are full of Nihilism and dog eat dog mentality, they are the reasons for all the wars and injustice and sanction playing by those unwritten rules as the only way to survive, and maybe one believes them, just to be cool and buck “political correct” (it’s sad that now people see being an asshole as rebellious), because you know, too good to be true, life is suffering and unconvenient truth, if you don’t agree you are reasoning with feelings and such drivel.

No, here’s the truth. This “nice guy/ douchebag” concept isn’t real. Here’s another shocker, girls don’t like being physically beat/ cheated on. Oh and here’s another one girls like nice guys. The problem is that a guy who has a hard time “talking to girls” will start labeling himself and identifying as one of these nice guys or betas, when in reality there’s nothing wrong with him and he’s actually probably a decent guy to be so critical on himself. But if it makes you feel better about yourself go ahead and be a terrible person.

We Hunted the Mammoth tracks and mocks the white male rage underlying the rise of Trump and Trumpism. This blog is NOT a safe space; given the subject matter -- misogyny and hate -- there's really no way it could be.