Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:06 pmPosts: 6226Location: Everywhere, all at once

Tesseract wrote:

Oven #4 is the one connected to the undrainable mixer.

Ok, that's a tad better than saying the restroom is next to the cafeteria.

I found that the link Tai'lahr provided above has a handy, numbered map of the ovens. Perfect.

Because you will find yourself on the home page of a politcal website when you follow the link, I am compelled to issue this disclaimer: While I support and defend the philosophy of the LoL to challenge authority, I do not subscribe to its method because it withholds the rewards of Lighting the Cavern from the community as a means of demonstration against the DRC. While the DRC may deserve it, I feel we do not. The method I advocate is the one I used and apparent in the chatlog I posted to this thread - unrelenting, tenacious, challenging, polite and respectful dialog directly with the authority responsible for providing us with the information we need. The day after Laxman's visit to UruTapestry, we got a graph. Not great, as I've said, but it's a start. I believe persistence in this positive manner will result in a favorable solution sooner and in better faith than geting to the DRC by thwarting community efforts.

@Tai'lahr: By the time I read the request for oven locations, the OP had already edited his post to provide the necessary information, so it didn't occur to me to expand on that. Sorry. Thanks for the LoL link!

@JWPlatt: I respect your position. However, allow me to bloviate for a bit.

First, "persistance" is really hard to achieve when Laxman's accessibility is limited to a few minutes -- generally less than half an hour -- per month. He can easily ignore what he doesn't want to hear, fend us off for another month with crud like the laughable "pellet analysis" chart or the recent "progress" graph, baffle us with nonsense and logical fallacies (such as the response that you received from him the other day), and generally stonewall until the questions are either forgotten or become moot because the deed is done (as with the GZ calibration). A more active form of protest, such as the method advocated by the LoL, can send the message 24x7, whether the DRC is available to us or not.

Second, the LoL is not really about the lake, as I'm sure you realize. It's about much broader issues of responsibility, accountability, and openness. (OOC, issues of context and feedback.) The long-term rewards to the community of changing the DRC's attitude and behavior are surely worth a small delay in the rewards of lighting the Cavern. We are adults, and we should be able to accept delayed gratification for a cause that is worthy enough. How much would it really hurt us if "many months" became "many months plus one"? Especially if the DRC learned to be more open and provide better feedback for future projects in which they wish to involve us.

The lake isn't even the most significant issue facing us right now. The Bahro war is far more urgent. The DRC has a number of leads that could take us to the knowledge that the D'ni had about the Bahro, perhaps leading to a defense that we could use, but they have not shared this information with us. Nor do they appear to be following these leads themselves. What right does a small group of people have to withhold information that could be crucial to the survival of the entire human race, not to mention the safety of my own tender pink hide? That is criminally irresponsible and monstrously arrogant. In the face of that, becoming petulant about a delay in lighting the lake seems pretty silly, and I think the community is above that.

OOC, it seems Cyan wants us to handle such things IC, making our desires for context and feedback part of the story rather than filing feature tickets. I felt this was a better way myself, which is why I formed the LoL. Nagging the DRC during their appearances is certainly helpful, but I have not encountered any of them in months, so that doesn't seem to be a workable strategy for me. It's also hard to have a real discussion of complex issues during the hurly-burly that accompanies their public appearances. I had hoped that the LoL could tweak the DRC where it hurts and perhaps stimulate them into seeking a good sit-down discussion.

But, doing so requires being able to show Cyan that a significant portion of the community is committed to seeing this happen. If LoL can't gather the support, then Cyan is certainly right to ignore the ploy. Individual nagging is fine, but it takes some kind of organization to demonstrate breadth of support. If the support for these desires actually exists out there, I hope someone can come up with an idea for marshalling it, since LoL's bite at the apple hasn't even nicked the skin.

_________________*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

@Tai'lahr: By the time I read the request for oven locations, the OP had already edited his post to provide the necessary information, so it didn't occur to me to expand on that. Sorry. Thanks for the LoL link!

as if he'd look back up...

JWPlatt wrote:

Hey, I didn't know where to find the LoL. And I still don't know the oven numbers.

see?

JWPlatt wrote:

Tesseract wrote:

Oven #4 is the one connected to the undrainable mixer.

Ok, that's a tad better than saying the restroom is next to the cafeteria.

Sheesh, JW, are you an explorer or not? Go to Er'cana, look around, and experiment! (Funny line, though!)

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 8:06 pmPosts: 6226Location: Everywhere, all at once

Thanks, Brett, for sharing your point of view. I was hoping you would respond. You might find encouragement in that the drop-off of interest (or net lake points) did get their attention or Laxman would not have been out there asking us to do better. One way or another, they should understand the need for useful, intelligent feedback by now, and we need to keep at them to get it.