after more scuff marks on the ceiling, now I understand why the elbow has to be on the shoulder line at the trophy position.

now the motion feels like a piece of cake.... just a trophy and a turn that automatically achieves the ESR position.

this is exciting... tennis is a lot of fun when you serve big!

also showed the motion to a friend of mine and he 1-hopped a serve for the first time in his life lol.

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There you go. Now you are making sense. I had no idea what you are talking about with the pancake talk, but get that elbow away from the body and in line with the shoulders and you're on the right track to a big serve.

Hitting a big serve isn't necessarily about a bigger motion - watch Roddick. It is about getting into the proper position and then getting the chain flowing. It is interesting to hit bigger out of trophy than people with a huge looping windup because despite all the movement they aren't getting into the proper power positions. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with a bigger windup, just that the form still needs to be there during the crucial power phases of the serve.

having been a victim of this misconception, and having how realized what a real serve should feel like -

i think the 'back scratch' concept is likely the biggest power leak in amateurs.

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That's why most people use the term racket drop rather than "back scratch" these days.

Racket drop is still meaningful because if you look at some of these "help with my serve" threads, you'll see players who don't let the racket drop. It is sort of amazing. the racket head with these players will never drop or lag behind the hand much and they'll just go from trophy to slapping the ball without developing racket head speed.

That's why most people use the term racket drop rather than "back scratch" these days.

Racket drop is still meaningful because if you look at some of these "help with my serve" threads, you'll see players who don't let the racket drop. It is sort of amazing. the racket head with these players will never drop or lag behind the hand much and they'll just go from trophy to slapping the ball without developing racket head speed.

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I see your point.

imo the name 'drop' is not that much better than 'scratch'... as usually when we think 'drop'.... it's a vertical drop in daily life sense.

just saying the drop is the result of a rotation move (ESR + supination).

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the racquet drops because the arm and wrist is LOOSE and the body goes up. you shouldn't be doing that stuff intentionally a la Toly. if you're doing it intentionally then you will have a weak serve. or at least much weaker than if done correctly.

the racquet drops because the arm and wrist is LOOSE and the body goes up. you shouldn't be doing that stuff intentionally a la Toly. if you're doing it intentionally then you will have a weak serve. or at least much weaker than if done correctly.

Toly is a poster here. He advocates not using pronation in a serve and using intentional supination in the windup etc etc...

loose loose loose. everything is loose and relaxed. like a fh. like just about all motions in all sports at a high level. correct setup before moving forward will dictate all the proper movements. with exceptions for the extremes like a twist or kick or extreme top on a fh etc

Even the term "drop" could confuse someone who thinks they need to force the racket into that position.

When I'm teaching, I use the term "lag." I tell my students to relax enough to allow the hand and racket to lag. I do see some beginners try to force the racket down into the drop.

This is when LeeD's talk about throwing comes into play. Someone who throws a ball well allows the arm to externally rotate from the shoulder and let the hand lag. They are not trying to force the external rotation but allow it to happen as the body and elbow drive forward.

Allowing it to happen makes a big difference. This is why some of the biggest serves I've ever hit seem relatively "relaxed" in terms of muscular tension.

ok... another question with the 'drop'.... does this imply that the lowest point that the racket tip reaches, is the end of the back swing?

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Define "backswing."

During a high level serve. The racket drops or "lags" as the legs drive the shoulders and elbows up. So the "drop" is actually happening while the rear shoulder is moving up and the elbow is moving forward.

In my mind, the "drop" is actually a lagging part of the forward motion of the swing, so it occurs AFTER the backswing. In other words, the hand is already driving toward the target during the "drop." As you've mentioned, that's why the term "drop" may be sort of misleading and why I often use the term "lag."

Again, the terminology isn't that important. I prefer to shoot video and then show people what they are doing wrong.

after numerous shadow swings in the living room and bunch of scuff marks on the ceiling for the past couple months, finally found my serve... MY serve.

foot line perpendicular to the baseline, chest to the right post at ready position.

tossing arm straight into the court.. hitting hand continental grip with V right on top of bevel 1.... racket shaft about 45 degrees to the forearm....abbreviated motion to the trophy, with the racket face already addressing the contact point...

racket drop doesn't feel like a drop, more like a counterclockwise rotation... aka external shoulder rotation

laid back wrist on the swing up... lean on the ball and wack the felt off it....well it doesn't feel like a swing up, more like a clockwise rotation. aka ISR

flats hitting 1-2 ft on the back fence.... 45 degree weather with slight head wind.

spin serve, same motion with slight grip change, feels very secure as well.

ball toss is quite low.

so effing easy, zero wasted motion.

with some more work i should be able to put some legs and more core into it, and find better locations to make it a little monster.

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What high speed video camera might you be buying or borrowing to see what is really going on with your new serving motions? Check any golfer friends as golfers have many more high speed video cameras than any other group.

But it is obvious you need some lessons. Or some help on court from someone who can actually play and teach tennis.

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no worries.

on lessons -

1. it would ruin all the fun of figuring out stuff; I have figured out pretty much everything... tennis is not easy, but not rocket science either for the analytic mind.

2. a few people i know have taken lessons and they aint getting any better... matter of fact they improved more from the tips I gave them than from the lessons.

3. this is quite similar to going to a doctor - in many cases, a person who can actually think maybe better off figuring it on his own than going to a doctor.... personal experience I had a few injuries in the past that ended better as a result of NOT taking the doctor's advice..... and I have seen plenty of instances of such on other people.... it all depends.

3. this is quite similar to going to a doctor - in many cases, a person who can actually think maybe better off figuring it on his own than going to a doctor.... personal experience I had a few injuries in the past that ended better as a result of NOT taking the doctor's advice..... and I have seen plenty of instances of such on other people.... it all depends.

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If you break your leg, I recommend that
you not try to reset it yourself...

Intense pain in kidneys or gall bladder
area? Same thing. Go see a doc.

you have this imaginary windshield... it is behind you at the top of the back swing... it is slightly open, and the racket face is on the windshield.... now you wipe it while pushing the windshield forward at the same time... when you finish the shot, the racket face is still flat on the windshield.

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Here's dozu teaching how to hit the slice backhand:

dozu said:

Imagine your upper arm/forearm/racket being 1 big wiper unit... your arm would be the wiper arm, the racket being the wiper blade.... the shoulder would be axis, and your back muscle (while stretched when you turn back), being the motor that powers the wiper unit.

now here is a ball, coming at you like a bug that lands on the windshield, so your wiper unit will go from high to low, from 11 oclock to 4 oclock, to wipe that bug....

Here are the keys -

1) the wiper blade is always on the windshield, so the racket angle is always constant

2) into impact, the wrist and elbow should be locked, so you have a solid wiper arm, instead of a broken one.

3) this is the KEY part why 95% of slices pop up - the car is NOT parked static! the car (therefore the windshield) is moving 15-20mph forward! this is what makes the stringbed bit the ball and create penetration on the slice.