Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Known here as a ‘purity ring’, the freebie paper Metro reported this morning that the Roman Catholic church is hoping they can make waiting to lose one’s cherry till after one is wed trendy in Poland.

The ‘movement’ was launched at the sanctuary of Blessed Karolina Kózka, near Tarnów in southern Poland.

Karolina Kózka was a 16-year-old girl who was murdered in 1898 when she tried to stop a Russian soldier from raping her.

She was beatified by Pope John Paul II 20 years ago and is now considered the patron of teenage chastity.

Inscribed on the Silver Ring Things in the US are verses from the Bible, such as:

"God wants you to be holy, so you should keep clear of all sexual sin. Then each of you will control your body and live in holiness and honor."

So does the church here stand a chance of making chastity trendy?

I would say that it is going to be a tough job

Many web sites have been running polls on whether it is really a rather good idea to hang on till you are married. The results, of course, show a clear majority for doing it before marriage.

And I remember when I first came to Poland and was living in Hotel Sokrates, the place they dump foreign university lecturers and PhD students in Warsaw. One of my fellow inmates was an American woman who had first came over to Poland as part of the Peace Corp. As usual, she was posted to a small town in the middle of nowhere, down south.

Now, my American friend liked to party – she liked the pleasures in life that nature, in its cosmic wisdom, has endowed us with.

I knew nothing of Poles and their attitudes to the pleasures of the flesh. It was a ‘Catholic’ country, after all. Maybe they all did wear chastity belts until the honeymoon?

So I asked the American woman – “You know...when you were in that small village, didn’t you get...you know...”

64 comments:

Thing is...it was alright asking people to remain chaste in the old days - when they were getting married at 15 yrs old etc...but these days many don't marry until they are 28...30....so that is half the adult life ruined.

The percentage of VPB's (visibly pregnant brides) has always been high here. I'll believe this campaign has a chance when I see a long row of brides with flat tummies.

There just isn't any special stigma against pre-marital sex in Poland, especially in the context of a relatively serious relationship. And there hasn't been for a long time. I'm pretty sure this pre-dates the communists so they can't be blamed/congratulated for it.

If anything, I think an unmarried adult (male or female) who's still a virgin past the early 20's is thought to be a little ... off.

Exactly. One of the reasons I wrote that post was because in Britain, I have encountered a misunderstanding of Catholics and their attitude to sex - particularly in mainland Europe. The British project their own puritanism (it's still there lurking in British culture) onto catholics - forgeting that 'pleasures' in all their forms is the basis of life - and not 'work' as in the protestant tradition. That's why prots got in such a panic about masterbation, to be frank. It's 'work' wasted.

Yip, and the creator of our morning cereals, Dr. Harvey J. Kellog, if he was around today would be a big advocate of the Silver Ringy Thingy.

Harvey was a little obsessed with boys masturbating. He solemnly believed that by providing the right nutrition, abnormal sexual desires (including pre-marital sex, homosexuality) would be sufficiently suppressed as to be neutralised.

So the Silver Ringy propagandists are way off the mark. They should be concentrating on handing out free boxes of Cornflakes on the street or consider basing themselves beside the Metro newspaper distributors.

Mainly I think this is just another thing that kids will line up to "join" or participate in and then give it up once the pangs of puberty kick in. I remember when I was a kid they had a "Smoke-Free Generation" campaign, and I was so excited to get my t-shirt, and about 4 years later I was a confirmed smoker. It's just another teen fad, only with morality. I mostly think it's pointless. In this day and age, I think we should be spending more time teaching kids about being as safe as possible. The flood-gates opened with pre-marital sex years ago, and nothing is ever going to shut them. It's time for us to adapt and accept that little Johnny is probably having sex from about 14 years old nowadays. Is that good or bad, I don't know, but hopefully they'll be relatively safe. In this day and age, pregnancy and whatnot is the least of their worries.

As the father of a 10 year old daughter, I think it is a commendable program. Girls are exposed at earlier and earlier ages to hypersexualized propaganda and peer pressure to have sex. This program cannot have anything but positive effects if it delays the advent of sexual activity in teenage girls (and boys frankly). Is the program a failure if girls still eventually have sex? The mocking secularists will say yes. But we parents know better.

This program cannot have anything but positive effects if it delays the advent of sexual activity in teenage girls (and boys frankly).

Do you honestly think that it will have any effects, positive or otherwise?

The best way to get kids to act responcibly is to have good sex education...something they are denied in Poland.

And this is what is so pitiful about the Ring Thing. The catholic church - which has been trying to restrict sex education in schools, denies kids a proper education and then thinks that some gadget is going to work miracles.

I am afraid that instead of being part of the solution, the Church is part of the problem.

Is the Catholic church going to organize a parallel ring campaign for their priests in order to reminds them not to screw the alter boys? Perhaps something with an inscription, does anyone know what’s Latin for “don’t fuck the alter boys”.

"Sex education"? You mean indoctrination about homosexual lifestyles, instruction about how to wear condoms, lists of where to get abortions, and treating STDs without confiding in one's parents? Sure, that'll do wonders for young girls.

As for the parents of mocking secular leftists, their daughters tend to be the slutty tramps who used to give guys oral sex in high school. They were definitely not the kind of girls ever treated by men with respect.

Actually the duaghters of secular leftists go the whole hog ... or not, depending. It's the silver-ring wearing girls who are much more likely to indulge in oral (or anal) under the self-delusion that those aren't 'real' sex. Or much more likely to get married before they're ready emotionally because that's the only 'honest' way to get some.

parents of mocking secular leftists, their daughters tend to be the slutty tramps who used to give guys oral sex in high school. They were definitely not the kind of girls ever treated by men with respect.,

No need to insult me...

And for your information, my parents, while Communists, were quite uptight as far as sex was concerned.

It probably won't be in your video rental place, but it was included as a dvd giveaway a year or two ago with Gala. It shouldn't be too hard to track down second hand.

I enjoyed it much more than I thought I would and reccomend it.

I doubt if it was all that historically accurate but it's a lot of fun, and relevent to this topic - one of the subtexts of the movie was that these abstinent disciples of Kellog were finding their own improvised and offbeat roads toward the sexual fulfillment they were determined to deny themselves (often with no or only partial awareness of what they were doing). The body can only be denied so much....

Anonymous said..”"Sex education"? You mean indoctrination about homosexual lifestyles, instruction about how to wear condoms, lists of where to get abortions, and treating STDs without confiding in one's parents?”

It is difficult to respond to a position in support of ignorance. The most effective way to equip young people with the skills to make their own decisions regarding health and sexuality is through sex education. Free of interference from those guided by mindless superstition.

The Catholic Church takes no responsibility for the human wreckage it generates.

I saw the curriculum of my older son's sex education class. The description is accurate. Children are most assuredly NOT capable of making their own decisions about sexuality. We don't let them drive cars, drink alcohol, or vote until they're 18. Telling girls it's OK to let some layabout boys from the neighborhood have their way with them whilst the parents are away from home is what you get when you tell children that "anything goes so long as it feels good."

And as for the Catholic church's record, I suppose you are describing a large portion of Western civilization as "wreckage." Which speaks more to your motivations and prejudices than to your knowledge.

Your telling us that your son’s curriculum states that it’s ok to have sex when ever you feel like it and with whom ever! I find this rather unusual, what part of the world are you in?

Most sex education classes deal with the clinical facts and stay away from the moral judgements in order to avoid conflict with parents who usually hold a wide range of views on the subject. I should remind you that the majority view in most western countries is in favour of sex education in the school system.

Would you still be troubled, by the teaching of the clinical aspects of sex, birth control and sexual transmitted deceases, if this is done in the absence of any value system. By this I mean they teach the science and mechanics, you and the family deal with imparting the value system.

As for the Catholic Churches record it speaks for itself, certainly its sex education policies have filled a lot of graveyards in Africa.

Actually you may or may not have seen your son’s syllabus...from sex education class....a curriculum is something else....but never mind. Perhaps you should go to school with your son, your education seems incomplete.

Which speaks more to your motivations and prejudices than to your knowledge.

You have no idea what jan’s motives are. If you think is a ‘leftist’ then you should stay around here more often, as Jan is right wing, but secular.

I sometimes wonder whether there is a machine that produces these people’s comments. This is a caricature of an argument.

"Telling girls it's OK to let some layabout boys from the neighborhood have their way with them whilst the parents are away from home is what you get when you tell children that 'anything goes so long as it feels good'"

A couple of points:

1. You seem to be assuming/hoping that teen females have no sexual desires of their own. This is not a cornerstone of wise sexual counselling. "Just say no to boys who want sex" will leave a teenage girl unsure of what to do when _she_ wants (or thinks she wants) sex.

2. For the record, I think "anything goes so long as it feels good" is a horrible philosophy and also horrible and insufficient as a guide to sexual ethics. See? We have more in common than you might think.

BR, I have a very good idea as to his Jan's prejudices when he paints the Catholic Church as a font of superstition.

The remarkable thing about "sex education" as it is taught in most schools (and as I have seen the syllabus and had it described to me by my son) is the total lack of values instruction that goes with it. It's just information given straight out of a left-wing administrator's course guide, with a side helping of "I can't tell you what to do, but if you do, (wink, wink) enjoy yourselves."

And no, I am not against teaching my son how to wear a condom - I am quite comfortable talking about sex, but it comes also with a good dose of instruction (and example) of worthwhile values of respect, chastity, and self-control. As well as some photos of the results of STDs, which are easily available on the internet. Those are probably worth 1000 words of droning from Tata.

And Michael - I am quite well aware of the sex drives of females. In fact I benefit from it at least once per month. (I am a married man, after all. ;-) )

Sorry, I get confused about which 'anonymous' is saying what. It helps if you give yourself a name - Bartonfink - anything, so I can keep track.

I think you are right that something about values - i.e. respect for other people, etc is necessary when talking about sex to young people. And a good knowledge of STDs is apt too.

But what is not OK is for public bodies to prescribe behaviour that is essentially 'private'. This is a distinnction that goes back to Mill etc, and one that not just conservatives but liberals (in the UK especially 'liberals') seem to be forgeting.

The remarkable thing about "sex education" as it is taught in most schools (and as I have seen the syllabus and had it described to me by my son) is the total lack of values instruction that goes with it.

Really? What a remarkable progress!

Back in my day (1990s) what was passing for sex ed consisted mostly of talk about values, with absolutely no discussion of those pesky technicalities. (Heck, the actual mechanism of copulation was not even explained anywhere!...). In cases where technicalities were involved, the information presented was skewed heavily in favor of the Church view of things. For example, discussion of various contraception methods involved a very creative use of statistics to demonstrate that condoms are, in fact, ineffective. (Ironically, we made the teacher cite her data, which pointed to a completely different conclusion. I still don't know if she was bullshitting us or was just plain incompetent).

About the effectiveness of vows. We must remember that in this country children are obliged at the age of 10 or so to take vows to abstain from alcohol and cigarettes until the age of 18. These vows are then routinely broken around the age of 15 or so. So my guess is that these will share a similar fate, except that kids will wear these rings to bullshit their parents into believing that they don't do any of these dirty things...

Yeah, I think we have almost a consensus here that �abstinence� is a little unrealistic. And there is a need to get kids � and I mean 13/14/15 yr olds (not 10!) to feel at ease talking about the subject and feeling free to ask everything and anything about the subject � in school and outside.

Back in my day in London (1970s) I only remember a woman coming in from outside the school � the teachers had taught us what bunny rabbits got up to, but were too embarrassed to go any further - where she drew with some chalk where her ovaries were on her skirt. Bizarre!

Consequently all the kids I knew ended up about 16 yrs old fucking like rabbits � not too surprising that, given their role model was...well...a rabbit.

St. Paul wrote about the inability to keep vows, and observed that while the mind is willing, the flesh is weak. Is the lesson to be drawn from this fundamental human flaw an abandonment of all restraint and an "anything goes" mentality? According to some of our commenters, "yes."

Vows and resolutions, when backed with consistent promotion of decent values, will help many kids from the inevitable vices that lure us all in - drink, smoke, drugs, wanton sex, indolence. The goal is to treat the body as the temple that it surely is.

The mistake you secularists make is to confuse aspirations with reality. Nobody who really knows Christianity ever believes that church is only for holy people. Just the opposite: if we were all holy there would be no need of religion. Churches are for sinners, indeed.

But should you make the vow you know you will not keep? Should you demand the vow that you know will not be kept?

The problem is that kids are being told ex cathedra that booze, drugs and cigarettes are bad, and then they are required to make a vow to abstain from these things. This leads to kids making the vows pro forma, without paying any attention to them. Or worse, with a clear intention to break them anyway. So it has no real effect except for diminishing the meaning of honor for these kids.

"while the mind is willing, the flesh is weak. Is the lesson to be drawn from this fundamental human flaw an abandonment of all restraint and an "anything goes" mentality? According to some of our commenters, "yes."""

Total abstinence and abandoning all restraint is a false (or fools') dichotomy. It's quite possible to believe that one does not have to wait until marriage to have sex and still think that screwing anything that moves (or holds still long enough) is not a good idea.

Now the semi coherent Beatroot lapses into Euro superiority. This is clearly delusional on his part.

Lets see Poles must be dumb are not able to come up with their own ideas. This is quite amusing as the Poles I see each and every day in NYC are quite capable of articulating their own ideas quite well.

If Beatroot wants to see people incapable of intelligent independent thought he need look no further than American far leftist types. These sorts ape the Euro elitist delusions of granduer and parrot the most rabid of anti American cannards.

You claim to be above the ad hominem and then try to add in a slight with my pen name. Try to live up to your delusional Eurocentric amoral myopia and write my pen name correctly.

The comment about American style abstinence is on a par with your rather amoral anti- American rhetoric. There was honestly no need to bring America into the mix at all, save for pandering to your Euroelitist delusions.

The insult is quite earned and deserved in this case. Do you think that Poles are capable of coherent thought? Could it be that some of them came up with this idea on their own free of Americanism.

What does America have to do with local Polish politics?

If you disagree with the policy for whatever reason this is fine. You need to return to planet Earth and ditch the mindless anti- Americanism.

You got caught with your pants down.The simple response was that it was a slip of the pen. I had previously respected your integrity, but it is clear from your behavior both here and at Sonia's you lack courage. When you are over matched you feign ignorance. Sadly you are too articulate so this thinly veiled attempt at confusion doesn't work.

It is quite clear that my case was proven on both counts. A slip of the pen is no big deal. However, it is abundantly clear the stooge from MN is a rabid anti semite and welcomes its most rabid expressions. His blog comment section does often appear identical to those found at Neonazi sites such as Stormfront.

You might have a point if the stooge objected to comments such as those claiming American Jews are traitors or blew up the WTC. However, the repeated silence to the most over the top expressions of anti semitism are apparent.

You often show enough independence to be admirable. However, your cowardice and feigning ignorance are noted. Just the same if these exchanges are a bit much you can avoid them by ditching the above it all game.

It is clear that you do not enjoy it when I return your condescending tones. I merely am more adept at it than you.

I do not see where all this knee-jerk revulsion emanates from. Is an abstenience programm for youngsters...shall we say over optimistic in the extreme? Yes. They will bonk each other like rabbits, as each generation has done from time immemorial. A prgoram such as this does impress on the youg'uns that sex should be properly construed as something more than a physical release (most of the time).

Granted there is a healthy dose of hypocrisy in the program; however, the program does not provide, to my knowledge, an accompanying pill or similar instrument of hormonal castration.

I want my children to enjoy sex (mostly within the context of a serious relationship), but I decidely dont want them to devolve into slags or slappers either.

We have been over this before. You are not the sharpest tool in the shed. In Beatroot's case this feigned ignorance is a guise for a ducking the obvious.

Beatroot.

Obvviously you lack the courage to state the obvious. It would have been simpler to say that perhaps terming a local policy derisively American was dumb.

You really should either mind your business when the genocidal nut from MN cries or articulate your point. The mindless condescending moralilty play bit doesn't work.The comments and content on that site does at times resemble Stormfront or that on KKK sites.

Try to remain on the sidelines when your pal whines. However as the Trostkyite is always bawling and is unmanly this may be difficult.

A male who engages in profligate, indiscriminate and joyless sexual encounters is usually termed either a pimp or male ho, as the kids say and he is held to the same derision as females who conduct themselves in like manner.

Odd that your first inclination is to revive old tired feminist arguments from the 70s when it was obvious I was referring to a generalizing, non-particular example of self-destructive behaviour.

Dont see how your personal remarks are justified or appropriate in any event.

beat, you need to give beakerkin a little of that anti-Americanism he so deeply craves (so he can react against it) observe:

"Beakerkin, be quiet! you simple American cowboy! Your European betters are trying to have a subtle, nuanced conversation on the theme of root causes! Your brash no-nonsense approach is not wanted! Please, some consideration, wreckless New Worlder!"