Michelle Santana – Foxfire Dobermans|Breeders’ Voice on Pure Dog Talk

Breeders’ Voice: Michelle Santana – Foxfire Dobermans

Michelle Santana of Foxfire Dobermans has been voted Breeder of the Year by her peers and Working Group Breeder of the Year by the American Kennel Club. She has a lifetime devoted to her beloved breed, focused on a style of dog that she has permanently emblazoned on her mind’s eye.

Foxfire has produced national specialty winners, best in show winners and top ranked dogs. Her puppies have earned titles in a wide range of performance competitions as well.

Past president and deeply active in her parent club, Michelle was honored with the 2015 Doberman Pinscher Club of America APEX Legacy award: “For making a lasting, positive impression on the Breed, improving public awareness and perception of the Breed, and through service to the Breed community The Doberman Pinscher Club of America herby grants Michelle Santana of Foxfire Dobermans the APEX award GOLD level as an outstanding Breeder.”

You can listen to Michelle’s Pure Dog Talk interview, episode 58, in which she talks about working with a cropped and docked breed in today’s hypersensitive, Animal Rights driven environment.

Enjoy our conversation with Michelle in the debut of this exciting format, Breeders’ Voice, as PureDogTalk focuses on the very core of our passion for purebred dogs: our breeders. Join us in honoring our Master Breeders as we look to the future through the lens of the past.

Ch Foxfire All That Jazz Lived to 12 and was the Dam of 14 Champions.#1 Doberman/DPCA TT winner 2005AKC Top Producing Dam 2008 & 2009

Breeders’ Voice

BV: You have consistently produced successful dogs.

Let’s talk about breeding a “family” of dogs. Type, style, breeding plans, how you got from point A to point Z….

MS: Well, first we have to recognize what makes a dog(s) successful. It’s MANY elements that come together. Usually encompassing a TEAM of individuals lending their hand at the success of said “Successful” Dog(s). You will often hear me say, “It Takes A Village”… AND It DOES!

1.) Quality of Animal (Obviously)

2.) A TEAM around that animal that consists of an Owner who realizes what they have and has the ability to travel (or let travel) this “Special” dog to be successful! If a Handler is involved, a handler that is an expert at the care and presentation of the Breed exhibited. And the ability to pull together to determine the “path” a dog should take to success! (Judges to show under/Circuits to attend etc.).

BV: How do you produce a “family” of dogs that can reliably be of particular quality, type, style etc..

MS: A VERY long time ago I decided what the “ideal” Doberman would look like in my mind’s eye. It was a visual that brought the Standard Blue Print to life for me. (This could be based on your favorite living (or past) dog at the time). Mine was the Westminster Best In Show Winner, of the day, Ch Royal Tudors Wild As The Wind, “Indy”. She was the epitome of a Doberman to me, as with many. You keep that “visual” tucked close to the vest so you can use it time and again to check in with yourself and guide your destination!

I remember walking up to the Doberman Ring one time- Pomona Memorial Day circuit` when it was at the fairplex under those cement pillars. I saw this black male dog in the classes with Andy Linton and said, “THAT!”. It was just a type I always fall for. A short time later I bred to him, and though he had some success as a Special with Andy, it wasn’t like he was an “Indy”.

But it’s a type I very much still carry close to the vest today. If you just keep your eye on the ball of that “type”/ “style” your breeding plans will take you from A to Z, time and time again even through decades of generations.

BV: What do your most successful pedigrees look like? Why? Are you working with a prepotent sire? A powerful dam line? What is the secret to your success (in general terms) and how did you arrive there?

MS: A little more than two decades ago (1997) I purchased a book called “Born To Win-Breed To Succeed,” authored by Patricia V. Craige (Trotter). I read this book cover to cover and, at least in my mind, I feel it particularly educated me on how to look at pedigrees and move forward from where I was.

I feel Foxfire has always based our breeding program on the Maternal strength of our dams (starting with our foundation bitch that every current Foxfire Dobe traces back to). Having said that, over the years, I think it can be said that Foxfire has equally become dominant for its Stud Dogs’ prepotency as well. Our first real successful sire was Ch Foxfire’s Devils N Demons, WAC (DPCA National Specialty winner from the Veterans class in 1998).

We’ve had a smattering of mildly successful studs since Demon- but the most notable is probably Ch Foxfire All Star who is the sire of 100 champions and a like amount of performance titled kids. Including his two most famous daughters Westminster Working Group Winner and #1 Dobe for numerous years Ch Protocol’s Veni Vidi Vici, ROM “Fifi”.

And Ch Catawba’s Take No Prisoners CD IPO 1- the only Best In Show/DPCA TT/IPO titled Doberman in Breed History.

Both of these Stud dogs have received the Doberman Pinscher Club Of America Highest Award- Legacy GOLD. It is very difficult to achieve as it encompasses Performance and Conformation titled progeny.

Pedigree Pattern

I can’t say I’m stuck on any one “Pedigree Pattern”. Although I’m sure if I laid them all out on a table it probably would look so! <laugh> What I have found myself doing, on several occasions, is “discovering” little known stud dog(s) and liking the “nick,” then following suit to breed multiple bitches to them, as they themselves discover “stud dog success” within our breed.

This has given me an avenue to mix and match these pedigrees for the generations to come.

I like to piece together pedigrees with my “mind’s eye.” I’ve been fortunate to have been around long enough to have personally seen, created, and/or had my hands on most of the dogs that comprise my pedigree of today. So, its just a matter of saying, “this needs that, and that needs this” and away we go. I feel ever so fortunate, that while many are saying, “There isn’t anything to breed to,” all I have to do is look at my stud dogs in the yard, or that I have breeding rights to, and “Pick” what I want!!” I only occasionally breed out to a Stud Dog that catches my eye, for diversity.

BV: Give us some idea of the struggles… Dead ends or pedigrees that didn’t pan out, health/temperament issues that caused a reset of the program and how you handled it, the breeding that looked incredible on paper and was a disaster, like that.

MS: I often ponder to myself if we are “Health Testing” our Breed(s) to imminent extinction?

On the one hand we are super proud that as a Dog Breeding and Showing culture, we promote our Purebred Dogs as being the healthiest colony of dogs in the world.

On the other hand, the current trend is researchers telling Breeders our dogs are “too related” and we need to Diversify the gene pool by monitoring the COI (coefficient) numbers of the pairs we breed together.

There is now DNA testing (via Saliva) to test for Genetic COI vs. the Pedigree (guestimate) COI Breeders’ used to have to rely on before the DNA test was developed that TRULY shows your dogs genetic make-up. And give the ability to breed “less genetically related dogs together”.

I’m not sure how much faith I place in this theory (lowering the COI in a litter will equate to better health/longer longevity). However, I have agreed to participate in the DNA data collecting and analysis (and promotion of the 501c3 Doberman Diversity Project) to see where it takes us.

When I say “Are we “Health Testing” our breed to extinction? The question is brought about by my observation of Breeding trends over the past 36 years since Foxfire produced our first litter back in 1982. And I often wonder if we’re shooting ourselves in the foot because John Q Public certainly doesn’t seem to understand the limitations of “Health Testing” and its relationship to actually breeding dogs.

Recently the propaganda on the internet is that “Dobermans are dying younger, in mass, than they ever did in generations past.” (I don’t personally believe that. But that’s another article!LOL)

However, IF that propaganda proves true, how can that be when we have MORE “Health Tests” to “check off the list” to come to a determination whom to breed your bitch or stud too? Whilst we promote “Health Testing” as the means to longer lived dogs? Could it be that basing breeding decisions heavily on “Health Tests” is causing a further bottle necking of our Gene Pool…..To the point of extinction? Because every health test becomes another reason to cull a population of individuals from a breed. Until the populous of dogs being bred can’t support the genetic viability and diversity of the Breed anymore.

Back when we bred our Foundation bitch the only test any Breeder ever did was OFA Hips. The rest was just finding a stud that made your heart pitter patter! Yet, today, we’re told those generations of “yesteryear” were longer lived. An interesting proposition because Breeders had fewer “Health Tests” at their disposal to match breeding pairs!

Early on after our first litter, a Veterinarian developed and named a Disease and test for said disease called von Willebrand disease (vWD). (Even though, if you speak to many of the old time Breeders they will tell you the “New Disease” was a NON issue manifesting in our Dobermans). It was described as along the line of a hemophilia based disease that could, for those deemed “affected” (those that came back with a “low” Elisa test score), cause prolonged clotting times, and in the most severe cases, uncontrolled bleeding resulting in death from blood loss. The test developed was a blood test that measures the antibodies useful for measuring vWD factor in plasma called the “Elisa” assay test.

All of us Breeders at the time (we are talking 80’s on) submitted tests for our dogs and made Breeding Decisions (often) based on the assessment of this (now deemed) ambiguous antibody testing method. Along came a DNA test for vWD in the early 2000’s and, again, hysteria began over the disease and everyone began flocking to the “Clears” in the Breed, bottle necking our gene pool.

At least the DNA test was a definitive testing method. The “affected” (carry two genes for the disease but that in No Way meaning they would actually be “Clinically Afflicted” with the disease) were pretty much discarded from many Breeding Programs. “Affecteds” were stigmatized by John Q Public and Veterinarians that weren’t familiar with how FEW Dobermans ever really had a “Bleeding Disorder” from vWD. (In fact, many of my longest lived Dobermans were “Affected” according to the new DNA testing method.) The downside of everyone pursuing “Clear” Stud dogs was that, as it played out, many of the Popular “clear” vWD studs ended up dying of a much more serious disease that plagues Dobermans — Heart Disease.

Thus, we Doberman Fanciers traded one less lethal disease for a more lethal disease entrenched in our breed!

Slowly but surely JQP’s demand for “clears” and “carriers” of vWD drove Breeders to limit their consideration of possible mates based on the vWD test status. This left our gene pool severely under utilizing a whole population of individuals because of their “affected” vWD status.

Looking back, I ponder how many long lived, GOOD Dogs, were “culled” from consideration to contribute to the Gene Pool because they were “Scarlet Lettered” by being vWD “Affected”?

Many Breeders’ wouldn’t even consider breeding to an “affected” even if their dog was clear and genetically impossible to produce an “affected”. (Clear to affected would only produce a whole litter of “Carriers”.)

Has the stigma of being “Affected” (even if they weren’t “Clinically Afflicted”) hurt our Breed?

Is the stigma from the results of some of the other contemporary “Health Tests” that are far less deadly than DCM, stigmatizing even more and more dogs, ”culling” them from our Show Line gene pool? There are “New” buzz word “Health Tests” like PDK4 & DCM2 (DNA tests for a couple of gene mutations for Cardio Myopathy which have already proven completely unreliable in predicting manifestation of DCM over-all). Another disease getting a lot of coverage these days is various thyroid diseases “Autoimmune” and/or adult onset “Acquired.”

The AKC Health Foundation states in a release in June 2016;

*Hypothyroidism is one of the most common endocrine disorders in adult dogs; with a majority of cases caused by autoimmune thyroiditis (AIT).

*Identification of elevated TgAA with otherwise normal thyroid hormone concentrations is referred to as ‘subclinical thyroiditis.’

*It is assumed that while dogs with subclinical thyroiditis (remember, NOT expressing the disease) have increased TgAA, the rate of progression to hypothyroidism varies, and *not all dogs with increased TgAA will become hypothyroid*.

MS:

So now Breeders are culling Normal Thyroid dogs from the already devastatingly shrinking gene pool based on a portion of a thryoid test known as TgAA concentration, which research has indicated *May Not* actually ever manifest into low thyroid disease!

Something even as benign, and non life threatening, as a missing tooth (when our DQ isn’t until you reach four missing) will make a dog undesireable to breed to. And most recently internet banter that dogs with pink lower gum lines should be culled from breeding programs (and I am not talking about true Vitiligo where dogs have large splotches of lost pigment in their tan markings), just pink lower gum lines.

Has the hysteria and misunderstanding about how to assimilate “Health Tests” into Practical Application in maintaining a population (Breed) of Purebred dogs brought us to the point of no salvation? Are Breeders relying on “Health Tests” as their sole criteria for matching mates? Without giving due process to the individual evaluation of animals, and the over all longevity, a dog or pedigree represents?

I think so.

I think over the past three decades Breeders have begun breeding “By Numbers” (aka test results, even of tests for “Health Issues” that are not usually terminal to our breed). I think this is having the over all effect of shrinking our gene pool options/bottle necking the entire Breed.

Because every health test becomes another reason to cull a population from the Breed. Until the population of Dogs being bred can’t support the Viability of the Breed anymore.

I see JQP misunderstanding WHY Breeders’ health test. I have numerous conversations with individuals inquiring about the purchase of a Doberman that have a complete lack of understanding that MOST of the Diseases Breeders’ are testing for is for the Assessment of the health of their individual dog(s), NOT as the end all be all prediction of what any one puppy WILL inherit from a parent. The diseases ARE NOT of Dominant inheritance, and with the exception of the DNA vWD test (reliable information), TESTING of most the other diseases is NOT predictive of what will be the long term “Health” any one dog produces in their progeny!

It just means when a disease crops up an owner can (possibly) extend longevity through proper treatment!

Only Mother Nature wields the fickle finger of destiny for an individual’s “roll of the dice” in regards to long term genetic health. NO “Health testing” will guarantee “Longevity.” Breeders are NOT Super Human Individuals that control Mother Nature.

5 Comments

Pamela ROSLINGTON-Robertson
on February 12, 2018 at 7:48 pm

Superb discussion! Michelle speaks with such great knowledge and a sincere heart.
We have personally experienced through owning, raising and helping, 20+ years, Michelle’s dedication to this extremely special and elegant breed. Foxfire is the BEST.
Please, more discussions from Michelle. Knowledge and heart together is an educational gem for us all.

Great Read, Great information from an experienced and educated Master Breeder. I fear John Q. Public has scrutinized us in all breeds. Michelle has given us a wonderful prospective from lasting the test of time and not wavering her program/protocols to the waves of hysteria. And ultimately for slipping us her secret ingredient, breeding for TYPE. #iBulldogges

Once again another good topic you’ve come up with here and I know the amount of work needed for good new ideas. I also have a dog reltaed blog and feel we could be a suitable fit to write each other a guest post. Why not have a look at one of my newest dog articles here- <a href="[Link deleted]doberman pics and get in touch if you agree! Thanks

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December 11, 2017 by 11outfox123 from New Zealand

I love these podcasts!! Even though I have been involved in breeding and showing for many years, I can not believe how much I have learnt from Laura and her guests. We live in NZ, and these podcasts make us feel not so far away from the rest of the dog world, to have this kind of information shared is remarkable.
Allison Foley is my fave Laura guest and as a result listening to her, we have purchased several of the Leading Edge Dog Show Acadamy lessons and boy! they are good!
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I must admit, I've been very selfish about this podcast... my most recent obsession.. I wanted to ingest all of it before everyone else. Currently on episode 130 ? Laura Reeves is so engaging, informative and sincere it's hard not to get choked up when she does. The passion just pours out of her and her interviewees. She's everything I want to be for my #OEBCommunity ... She touches on health, education, wellness, giving back, SHOWS and the history of our beloved animals, animal rights and PUR RIGHTS TO HAVE & BREED our babies ?

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I'm addicted. I love the shoptalk, and also the humor and friendliness.

Great Resource

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What a great resource for a novice handler and breeder. Informative and very supportive! What a great way to promote purebred dogs, and support thoughtful breeding and confirmation (among other dog activities) in an unbiased and modern way. Kudos to Laura.

Best dog podcast EVER!

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Thank you so much for all the info you share! I love this podcast and can’t wait to hear new episodes ?

All the love for Pure Dog Talk!

October 17, 2017 by LovesPoodles from United States

Love listening to Laura while I walk, groom or drive to shows. Showing my first dog right now and it’s helping so much! Love Pure Dog Talk!

A podcast just for dog people

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Love you Laura! I listen to this one as soon as an ep is posted. Great topics.

Informative History for oldtimers and new people

September 13, 2017 by Jason Hkm from United States

Each interview gives great insight into our sport. The deatil of history and how the sport is progressing should be heard by everyone involved in our sport. Well worth the time!!

Learning and relearning

September 11, 2017 by Going for a Spin from United States

These podcasts have information that I may have stored somewhere, but the succinct, timely and well detailed reminders are welcome! AND I'm learning so much new information to be a better owner, handler and trainer.

Maltese Breeder

September 11, 2017 by LynCachia from Australia

Excellent content on every subject with valuable information that all worldwide authorities could adopt.
Unbiased, and practical knowledge.

Awesome podcast!

August 11, 2017 by whatsappwiththis from United States

Fascinating information I haven't found anywhere else! Thanks so much!

Awesome resource for owner handlers!!!

June 30, 2017 by FMJ88 from United States

A must, if you show your own dogs!

Great!

June 30, 2017 by Machborzoi from United States

I love the variety of topics and inclusion of top names all aspects of dog sports/breeding. Can't recommend this podcast enough to the purebred dog community!

Great Podcast

June 18, 2017 by MRenLew from United States

My first one was 81. I will now have to go listen to the others.

Just what I was looking for!

June 9, 2017 by Khailee from United States

Well produced, interesting, informative. Awesome!

Long Overdue

June 2, 2017 by KCoonhound from United States

Such a wonderful service to the fancy! People have said for years that it's sad to lose the wisdom and insights of the "great ones" of the sport. Thanks to Laura, these personal interviews will go on to inspire breeders and exhibitors of the future. I wish that the ones who are lost to us had had this avenue to share their knowledge in their own words.

My favorite podcast

May 14, 2017 by diggindog from United States

Great information in compact, concise episodes in an array of interesting topics. I've learned a ton of helpful hints. Highly recommended.

Great podcast about dogs

April 28, 2017 by NevadaExplorer from United States

I am just getting started into the dog show scene. Every podcast answers question and/or makes me aware of things I should know.

An amazing resource!

April 13, 2017 by wynnypi from United States

I enjoy the wide range of topics discussed on this podcast. I am slowly working up the courage to start showing my dog in conformation and it is a direct result of listening. This podcast breaks down many different aspects of dog sports but also discusses topics like whelping a litter, search and rescue, and up and coming new dog sports. Keep up the good work! Definitely one of my favorites!

An outstanding podcast!

April 3, 2017 by ConorIRE from United States

This podcast is superb. It's very well done and filled wtih useful, insightful and entertaining information for any and all interested in purebred dogs and the activities that surround them. For passionate newbies (like me) and long term ethusiasts there is a lot to love here! I'm excited to hear more.

So informative!

March 23, 2017 by alaskaguy from United States

I have listened to just about every Pure Dog Talk podcast that I could find and learned something from every episode. Laura Reeves is an engaging host and her guests are among the best in the dog world. Laura's questions sometimes get a little long winded but they elicit informative responses. I wish there were more past episodes to download. Keep up the great work.

Many

March 15, 2017 by Gun Dogs of Navarino from United States

I REALLY enjoy Laura Reeves podcast! They are super for listening to while driving to a dog show. They are informative, professional, upbeat and often funny. Also enjoy her column in "Best In Show Daily".

Excellent!

March 15, 2017 by DogmomMary from United States

From novice to pro this podcast is for everyone. Interesting topics and people.
The puppy series was great and as I've just taken on the mantle of "specialty coordinator", Betty Anne's could not be more timely.
I LOVE that we get three episodes a week!
Thanks to all, great job.

Great information!

February 17, 2017 by fbdfanatic from United States

Thank you for doing these informative and entertaining podcasts.

Great information

February 12, 2017 by DNaeWilson from United States

I am always looking for resources to better me as a breeder and a breeder-owner-handler. Happy to have found Pure Dog Talk!

Really Great Info!

January 31, 2017 by GrayPaper from United States

This is a great podcast for all dog show people!! Although I am fairly new to the sport of dogs I learn something new with every podcast.

Great Resource

January 28, 2017 by Jana Twotwo from United States

These podcasts give wonderful, up to date information about starting your dog right. It has been a long time since I have had a puppy and now I have the tools to help my dog get it right. Mary and Laura are very knowledgeable and share their knowledge. Super podcasts.

Pure Dog Talk

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Excellent and informative!

Kudos to Pure Dog Talk!

January 27, 2017 by Kelly Rauch from United States

I am so excited to have open access to the latest in education, training and expertise from some of the best in the dog world. Kudos on being a one-stop-shop for all things dog....

Great puppy info!

January 27, 2017 by DRmatopoeia from United States

Really enjoyed "Bomb Proof your Puppy"!
Very pro- nice podcast!

So enjoyable!

January 27, 2017 by Seawitch_Whippets from Canada

I've been a fan since the beginning, and I'm glad to see something catering to our dog world. I've downloaded them all, and listen to the podcasts on long trips to dog shows, or just quick jaunts across town. My only feedback would be for the hosts to remember that not everyone has been in the sport forever, so maybe a little introduction and background to some of the guests would be good.
Otherwise, top notch!

Aspenelk

January 27, 2017 by Aspenelk from United States

Well done, badly needed

Bomb Proofing we all need!

January 27, 2017 by SJR200 from United States

What we all wish we'd known when we got our first puppy. Really invaluable information on socializing the right way!

Fantastic Resource!

January 25, 2017 by Ittybittypilot from United States

Great for dog people of all levels, a great review for anyone, and guidance for those new to dog sports. Thank you for all your hard work!

Very thankful to have found this Podcast!

January 25, 2017 by KJMAJJM from United States

If you are a dog lover you'll want to know about this PODCAST. Professional and experienced guests are asked interesting questions and give expert insight and advice. I'm super excited to have found this Podcast. I can't get enough of it. For those who do not have mentors, or their mentors are not the best communicators, this show is greatly appreciated. I feel like I've found gold at the end of a rainbow. I want more episodes and I want them longer! lol :) Thank you, thank you, thank you for doing this Podcast.

Great advice

January 17, 2017 by Sylvia rutmanis your neice from United States

It is great advice I am gonna use all of your advice for the new puppy's and my other dogs

Essential for ALL dog owners

January 9, 2017 by Crazy4Dobermans from United States

Terrific, honest and fun podcast all about dog shows. Finally, here's someone explaining dog shows in detail without being too "inside baseball". Great discussions whether you're just starting out in dogs or have spent a lifetime handling. EVERY new dog owner should listen and every breeder should share with their puppy owners.

An outstanding resource for purebred dog enthusiasts!

January 6, 2017 by Marcy Burke from United States

BRAVO to Mary Albee and Laura Reeves for creating this amazing podcast! I love that the topics change, so there is something for every purebred dog lover.

New favorite!

December 24, 2016 by Charleehw from United States

I listen to different local Northwest podcasts every day. Dog Talk is my new favorite! My 7 year old daughter who is in 4-H with dogs loves it too and requested that I share it with all the kids. I've shown dogs for 28 years but still found so many helpful pearls. And a great way to reinforce good habits. Keep them coming!

Excellent for New Handlers

December 13, 2016 by McmJen from United States

This podcast is fantastic at explaining the in's and out's of handling your dog. I am new to the sport and love it!

Great resource!

December 4, 2016 by lrmars from United States

This podcast is a great resource for the purebred dog owner!

Improving my Showmanship

December 2, 2016 by Marzdogs from United States

Pure Dog Talk pod cast are very informative and easy to follow. Laura does a great job explaining how to work with your dog to get the most out of them in the show ring. I have only listened to the first 4 so far and I look forward to listening to many more to help improve my showmanship and my dogs performance.

Great info!

December 2, 2016 by Melissa Everett Laggis from United States

Clear and concise information with a friendly tone. As a brand new exhibitor (of Standard Poodles, no less!!), the information presented in these episodes are priceless!

Real-life dog talk

December 2, 2016 by MikeMcCallum from United States

This a a great podcast by long-time dog people: breeder, handler, owner. Laura is a straight shooter and has been in dogs since birth. She has a wealth of experience to share—all you have to do is listen!!

Tips for success

December 2, 2016 by Cool Sue from United States

This is an amazing source of information from professional handlers in the know. So much to learn from the professionals. Wish I had access to this info years ago.