AIRportal.hu says that it has received information from an inside source about MA restarting long-haul operations to YYZ and JFK, with plans of expanding its network to LAX and NRT in the future. The website says the MA would lease or buy 2 B763s for UX and would possibly put its idle B762 back into service. AIRportal.hu also stresses that this is a rumor and that MA management as denied any such plan.

MA was recently renationalized after its private sector owners walked away from the debt ridden airline. MA cancelled its long-haul flights to JFK and YYZ 2 years ago because of low loads during the winter and increasing fuel and operational costs.

I think this news is too good to be true. MA is still struggling to be in the black and has made some very aggressive cost-cutting moves including making major labour cuts and reducing its fleet by 12 aircraft. Restarting costly flights now just does't make any economic sense.

However, cancelling the long-haul ops in 2008 was a very controversial move and it stirred up a lot of discussion in Hungary. The BUD-YYZ/JFK flights were a source of national pride for many Hungarians and MA workers. Hungary has new government and it now has complete control over the airline.

OK has recently stopped its scheduled flights to north America and the entire European aviation industry is still recovering from the recession and the affects of the ash cloud.

Is UX looking to get rid of its B763s?

Has anyone heard anything that may substantiate these rumors?

Thanks,

KrisYYZ

Link to Airportal.hu (only in Hungarian but you can use googletranslate)

They suspended flights during the height of the fuel price hike which dramatically increased operational costs thus in turn increased losses.

There isn't really a size able year round market from YYZ in particular for them to reconsider flying to but there is to JFK though for them. With regards to NRT, it would be mostly low yielding 6th freedom transit traffic bound to other EU cities via the BUD hub so really not that lucrative for them to seriously consider.

I would guess that this is really just a rumour inside MA probably from some pilots or from whoever. As much as I would love to see more longhaul routes from BUD, I think it wont happen in the near future.

MA should first of all get back on track. I think they are doing fine with buying the Dash-8-400 and selling all its F-70 CRJ. The 737-6/7/8 are really fitting their needs and are doing a good job.

Furthermore I think that they should cancel the Sukhoi Superjet Order. They ordered 30 (15 options) planes I believe. The whole order was totally politically driven, due to its former russian ownership. I really have my doubts that this program ever will materialize. It seems to have already failed long before any delivery takes place.

Please tell me, which airline accepts something like this. Just imagine Airbus would have told, that the A380 would be indefinitely delayed. That does not show a serious way of trying to sell airplanes.

And anyhow, for what do they need 15-30 planes of a 100-seater. The 737 family can be used more flexible according to the demand. There are some routes who need a bigger plane than the Superjet.

Coming back to long-haul from Budapest.

BUD has 4x weekly JFK (DL) and 3x weekly PEK (HU) as their solely long-haul destination. That says a lot about the demand in BUD. If JFK would be daily, I would believe that there might be more demand.

I think DL also playes a big role in kicking MA out of the JFK market by offering a more superior product in J. MA J-Class was realy outdated.

YYZ and JFK always have been flights to connect Hungarian expats like you with their home country. It is mostly about VFR traffic which is low-yield in most of the cases and in the Hungarian case for sure.

Furthermore buying 3 B767 is just a too small number to operate such a small fleet profitable. We discussed that already 1000x times in this forum, not only concering MA, but also other airlines like OK etc.

My conclusion regarding long-haul in BUD:

Maybe there will be new long-haul routes in the future when the 787 comes online. But I doubt that MA will be the airline who offers them.

I see a market for DXB. I don't think EK would offer this flight, because it would take away yield from its 2x daily VIE-flights. Maybe a 737-700ER/900ER would do that job, like the ANA NRT-India service. Integrating such a plane into MA fleet wouldn't cause to much change.

Maybe DL will add an ATL-flight.

My conclusion about MA future regarding long-haul:

I think right now they should not even think about it. They should get back on track and maybe change to SkyTeam. I don't see a real advantage being in OneWorld. MA codeshares with more SkyTeam members than with OW-Members. Furthermore they offer 3x daily CDG and 4x daily AMS. They should better feed into that alliance.

Furthermore we are still in a big economy crisis and Hungary is one of the most affected countries by the crisis.

To make a long story short: MA and Hungary first of all should get back on track and strenghten more before we should consider new long-haul destinations served by MA.

I believe if Malev further develops its regional operation that Budapest can play a strong role as an Eastern European hub for OneWorld. Connect it with JFK, MIA and ORD, all with oneWorld hubs and three of the largest trans-Atlantic markets to Eastern Europe, and Malev might be able to have a sustainable operation using a more modern and fuel efficient fleet.

I read now on the Airportal.hu Forum that DL might stop BUD and route passengers through their AMS hub. How likely might that be?

AA might jump in if DL stops service. What are your thoughts?

Best Regards

Tom

possible of course but I doubt AA would. They are very cautious and conservative when it comes to new routes. I've flown the route couple times with DL and the flights were packed both times. I've heard too that it might be on the chopping board.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):I believe if Malev further develops its regional operation that Budapest can play a strong role as an Eastern European hub for OneWorld. Connect it with JFK, MIA and ORD, all with oneWorld hubs and three of the largest trans-Atlantic markets to Eastern Europe, and Malev might be able to have a sustainable operation using a more modern and fuel efficient fleet.

I'm also inclined on thinking along those lines. Maybe three US long-haul destinations are too much, but an AA flight to JFK with an extensive codeshare could easily work, especially given AA 's(and OW for that matter) huge hole in Eastern Europe.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 2):I would guess that this is really just a rumour inside MA probably from some pilots or from whoever.

Hi Tommy,

I agree, I've heard soo many rumours in the past about fleet expansion and new routes that this one is probably just another dream.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 2):Furthermore I think that they should cancel the Sukhoi Superjet Order

The SSJ is not the right plane for MA. IMO, the order for Sukhoi's was political. MA was still owned by a Russian millionaire and Sukhoi promised to build a maintenance base at BUD. MA could have ordered planes that have a proven record like the E-175/190 or the CRJ nextgen instead of taking a massive gamble with the SSJ order.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 2):I think right now they should not even think about it. They should get back on track and maybe change to SkyTeam. I don't see a real advantage being in OneWorld. MA codeshares with more SkyTeam members than with OW-Members.

Joining OW made little sense. As you pointed out, MA has a much stronger relationship with SkyTeam members. I really haven't seen any advantage in MA/OW besides the codeshare ops with AA.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 7):I read now on the Airportal.hu Forum that DL might stop BUD and route passengers through their AMS hub. How likely might that be?

I saw that too. That would be devastating news especially when BUD is trying to attract more long-haul routes to this expanding airport. I also read that KL will be taking over the BUD-AMS routes. Do you know if MA will still operate its own metal to AMS or will KL take over all of the AMS flights?

Tommy, it was good hearing from you. Take care buddy.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 4):Well if they have a 767-200 stored, why don't they use it for their Dubai flights? Especially in summer.

That's a good idea. But operating only one 767 wouldn't be very profitable even if it is for a short time with 100% loads. Not to mention that LHB would require a lot of work to make it airborne again. I think it is missing an engine.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):I believe if Malev further develops its regional operation that Budapest can play a strong role as an Eastern European hub for OneWorld. Connect it with JFK, MIA and ORD, all with oneWorld hubs and three of the largest trans-Atlantic markets to Eastern Europe, and Malev might be able to have a sustainable operation using a more modern and fuel efficient fleet.

I agree. I think that, when it comes to Europe, OneWorld is too dependent on BA and London. Heathrow is a great connection point...for western Europe. For anything east of, say, Germany/Switzerland/Italy, there are much better connection points. BUD would serve perfectly for OneWorld customers heading to Poland/Czech Republic/Austria/Slovenia and east/southeast.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 11):Joining OW made little sense. As you pointed out, MA has a much stronger relationship with SkyTeam members. I really haven't seen any advantage in MA/OW besides the codeshare ops with AA.

If MA were to switch to SkyTeam, perhaps this would help improve DL's yield on JFK-BUD-JFK. As well, it will keep DL from axing the route and instead help route performance for DL with MA's help. Perhaps during the winter we'd see this flight go daily if they were to join SkyTeam.

Unfortunately the long-haul routes rumor for MA is yet just that, a rumor. However as someone here before me just said we are just after an election, where a new government has taken unprecedented 2/3 control of the Parliament. It also has to be known that this party was always very critical about the way MA was wasted to Russian gangsters and one of the key points of their program is to restore national pride and restructure wasted Hungarian companies.
However I am not fund of government influence in such sectors as aviation, but for now I do believe that MA needs the protection of the government… if, and only if this period sees the arrival of a management that successfully restructures the airline, and maybe then privatizes it to a reliable group at a real value.
As for the rumors about the Long haul routes, they may be true or false or partially true…
Could be true:
- Both destinations, JFK and YYZ operated on very good loads. The reasoning by the Russian owners of them not being operated with high loads was simply made up, to get acceptance about their decision to stop these routes. Both destinations have a very high Hungarian immigrant population; both are very favorite destination for Hungarians both for tourism and for business. In fact LH, AF, KL, SR earns lots of money on these passengers. The MA route was very popular for connecting passengers from the region too…
-The truth was that the yields were terrible; making the routes loss making and especially as most passengers were connecting passengers who not just got a cheap ticket to JFK, but for the same price had to be carried onwards to their final destination.
-MA now has the right and efficient regional fleet (DH8’s) to pick up connecting passengers from airports like TGM, ZAG, BEG, etc…

Could be false:
-to be honest both destinations are very well served by 1 stop carriers like the mentioned LH, AF, KL, SR, etc…
-MA should now concentrate on restructuring, receiving the right equipment for becoming a regional hub carrier is a good start, but a lot still has to be done.

Could be partially true (to me this looks like the most plausible):
-As someone also mentioned here DL might drop the JFK route, and AA might jump in. Now as MA is a OW carrier after all, and up until now we see absolutely nothing out of this here in BUD (MA and BA for example operate on the London route like 2 separate carriers, they don’t even sell tickets on each other’s flights!)…so MA being OW partner …so MA being OW partner, I think the best receipt for growth would be to build on this. I can very well see a working scenario where AA would start flights from JFK and codeshare with MA, the route would have perfect OW feed at both ends AA feeding from one side and MA from the other. With the new and state of the art terminal coming on-line within a year, the same could very well be happening from the Asian side CX opening up a route from HKG and maybe even JL routing its entire East-European traffic through BUD making use of the MA network.
I never understood the ignorance of OW for the BUD hub and a valuable partner like MA. It seems as if OW would be nothing more than a playground of the BA-AA-IB triumvirate. For example why force-route an OW passenger from HKG to maybe BEG through a very congested LHR hub? While others like Skyteam for example bring their passenger to BEG from ICN through PRG and not force the poor lad to go all the way to CDG!!!
So back on topic, the best and most likely way to build Long haul routes from BUD would be to build on the growth of OW partnerships, offloading congestion at the already congested hub like LHR, and jointly opening up routes with OW carrier feeding them at both ends… what I see very likely and as workable routes are:JFK (with an AA 763…maybe even a 777, JFK bound traffic is huge from the region, especially if AA offers onward connections to all around the US!)HKG (with a CX A340, and could be worked up to larger equipment later)NRT (with JL 772 and later even 773, the Japan-EU market is also very huge, and maybe the troubled JL should focus on offering their east-EU bound passengers a shorter connection than forcing them through LHR or CDG, a non-OW hub by the way!)
With MA crew placed on these flight…
These are much more likely scenarios in my opinion, than MA operating a small and inefficient fleet of 763s and 1 762

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 2):I see a market for DXB. I don't think EK would offer this flight, because it would take away yield from its 2x daily VIE-flights.

EK only has 1X daily 773ER service from VIE, and it is almost certain that after establishing the PRG route, BUD will be next. A survey (within EK) showed last year that passenger numbers from BUD and PRG where almost the same, PRG was chosen because Hungarian passengers have an easier access to an EK service (VIE), and due to BUD being reworked totally this year. As I hear from EK insiders they are expected to open up the BUD route after the new Terminal is finished, because they can easily count on the traffic from ZAG and BEG region that in its self do not warrant a service yet.
…of course being EK, who knows what’s going to be their next move
This would be good news for BUD, but possibly weaken the Asia bound hopes for any OW carrier

To sum everything up, I think MA has every potential to grow, especially if OW pulls its act together and finally start decentralizing from the BA-AA-IB triumvirate. To be honest I think OW would be fabulous with an European strategy focused around 3 superb hubs with LHR being a main hub towards the West, US and Africa; MAD being a mega hub for Latin-American routes and maybe Africa; and BUD focusing on Asia bound traffic… + of course mixing up on some routes to a sensible extent. If only OW and especially BA-IB and AA realize that the globe is not rotating around them only, and all the others are far ahead

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 14):JFK (with an AA 763…maybe even a 777, JFK bound traffic is huge from the region, especially if AA offers onward connections to all around the US!)HKG (with a CX A340, and could be worked up to larger equipment later)NRT (with JL 772 and later even 773, the Japan-EU market is also very huge, and maybe the troubled JL should focus on offering their east-EU bound passengers a shorter connection than forcing them through LHR or CDG, a non-OW hub by the way!)
With MA crew placed on these flight…
These are much more likely scenarios in my opinion, than MA operating a small and inefficient fleet of 763s and 1 762

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 14): they can easily count on the traffic from ZAG and BEG region that in its self do not warrant a service yet.

Zagreb possibly but I don't think that they will draw passengers from Belgrade as Jat Airways has a good deal with Emirates, and actually their flights tend to be quite cheap.
Didn't Malev stop their Zagreb flights?

But isn't Malev in a bad financial shape? Where would they get the funds to lease some new planes and actually open up new routes? Would injecting cash by the government be illegal?

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 17):I am sorry but it sounds like sheer politics.
AirUnion was a decent project.
And collapse of KrasAir - its core airline - affected many reputed airlines in Russia.

No politics there... I have no insight of how AirUnion was set up and run, but I do have deep knowledge about how some from the Hungarian privatization group played out the MA system to a very arrogant business man with a questionable background and a restruction plan that was only nice on parper. People tend to forget that the deal about MA was not only about the operations of MA, but also a VERY profitable maintenance company, Aeroplex.
I will not start to go into details of the whole MA privatization deal, as this is not that thread and we had a thread on it somewhere. Any way to sum it up... Airbridge Zrt. (the Russian winning the bid) kept nothing from what they promised, didn't spend a single cent on MA (however they were committed to invest a LOT), they cheated their employees and sometimes even "forgot" to pay them their salaries, they sold everything that could be moved or sold, and parted out every profitable branch of the MA system... go figure... the whole deal is now under investigation by a committee, and if there is a god in the sky, it will soon become a criminal prosecution that will involve some even from the former government...

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 18):I guess you forgot HEL. Wouldn't that be the perfect hub for OW Asia bound traffic? AY is already well established in that market and a OW member.

You are correct, however I think HEL and BUD could co-exist... especially that I think HEL is not really having an impact on this region.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 15):You are right. But a 2nd flight is planned in the future as the 773ER is always packed according to an interview with the Emirates director of Austria in the AERO International Issue Mai 2010.

Well there is no sign in their system of the second flight yet, and they do have competition from AUA on the route. The VIE flight is perfectly timed for connections both ways with their system, so there is no real timing pressure to put on-line a second flight, and since a very large part of those passengers originate East of Vienna, I think strategically it would be a much better decision to set up a similarly timed flight to BUD (adding that landing fees at BUD are cheaper too, and the new management of BUD has pretty good offers for new carriers with new routes )
…however as this is EK, anything is possible, we could end up having a second flight at VIE and also a startup of a new flight at BUD

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 20):You are correct, however I think HEL and BUD could co-exist... especially that I think HEL is not really having an impact on this region

But why start something new that costs a lot. Why doesn't Malev try to establish itself in the Middle East? They already have a decent coverage of the region, and they could do it with their 737's. I know there is Royal Jordanian there but still...
I remember when I landed from Larnaca there were a lot of Malev's planes sitting on the ground, can't they launch some more Middle Eastern destinations over night? Could Tehran work? That would be interesting?

Quoting ju068 (Reply 21):But why start something new that costs a lot. Why doesn't Malev try to establish itself in the Middle East? They already have a decent coverage of the region, and they could do it with their 737's. I know there is Royal Jordanian there but still...
I remember when I landed from Larnaca there were a lot of Malev's planes sitting on the ground, can't they launch some more Middle Eastern destinations over night? Could Tehran work? That would be interesting?

To some extent we are talking about the same thing, I also suggested to push for utilizing their available equipment and set up a real partnership with other OW carriers, and maybe leave the long-haul flights to them (like the suggested JFK flight on AA equipment, with MA code share). I agree with your suggestion on MA focusing on becoming a real regional hub and filling in for some more East and South-Eastern destinations...but the key here is to get OW to stick their heads out of their butts, focus on using their assets and co-operate wherever possible...not letting everyone into the network is not a bad thing, but not using your members capabilities is a waste of business opportunities... the competition is far ahead of them

boring.. this rumor is going around twice a year since MA closed their long-haul services. the airline posted record loss for the 2009 financial year, 90 million euro. they are about to bankrupt, not to buy/lease any wide-body aircraft.

about the BUD - NYC/YYZ routes:
yes, there is a good demand both in pax and cargo. but there is even bigger competition. MA will never be able to compete against LH, AF, BA, AZ prices, schedules and cabin service on these routes. sure, they tried for a long time but even with full load they made loss.

they could focus on other markets. there is also a huge demand for BUD - Far East routes, less competition.

but for now I only wish a better year for MA...

25 KL808
: I agree that maybe if DL does drop JFK-BUD that AA should step in. Does the 757 have the range to make it all the way to BUD from JFK? On a pax point