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You're right about that. What sounds cool when recording or when sitting around your house doesn't translate into a catchy thing when songs are being screened in volume like this. I am pretty much opposed to "atmospheric" sounds (except in very, very special cases). If you're writing a train song -- leave the recorded train whistle out. Do it on guitar, harp or fiddle!

I love the sound of rain -- I just don't need it on a song about finding your love in the rain. Also the "telephone" or scratchy am radio voice was really, really popular in the one genre I have completed.

Right on both counts Danny-O'....But after hearing it on dozens and dozens and of submissions they make my teeth hurt and do nothing to draw me into the song.

Oh, and as for "Riders", the storm sounds weren't just tossed in there. If you listen closely during the song, when Jim sings "Riders on the storm", those words are actually spoken/whispered & mixed in with what sounds like only thunder echoing the words in the background...Way Kewl.

Midnite

Originally Posted by DannyM

How about Pink Floyd'sMoney? Didn't that open with cash register sounds?Didn't The Doors ' Riders on the Storm open with rain and thunder?

THINK there was an Oldie, "Listen to The Rhythm of The Falling Rain" that opened with Rain S.E.s (KNOW it Closed with 'em) that was overall Very Pleasant. Forgot who sang on it. Toy Piano sound was also Very Catchy. (Think "Mexican Radio" opened with a bitta Broadcast S.E. too?)(W.O.L.D...as well?)

And....Traffic S.E.s on Intro to "Expressway..to Your Heart" seemed to set the mood Well...way-back-when...

Can't recall many New Ones that were all-that-catchy, tho...I'll admit.

If you guys are sick of it, imagine doing this your entire career like A&R people do or for the last 10 years like many of us here at JPF have done. I've heard every type of bad intro, musicial and otherwise, you can imagine. And the learning point is that I truly believe that everyone who does it thinks they are the first to have thought of it or that it's really going to set their song apart from others. It doesn't.

Also keep this in mind. We eliminated the bottom 60% of entries already. So if you're frustrated by any of what is left, imagine sorting through the stuff that was eliminated. It was a whole different level of examples of what not to do.

Brian, I would like to officially not volunteer to help with that bottom 60% in the future. That's gotta hurt.

Oh, & Stanny-Boy..."Rhythm of the rain" was a hit for the Cascades(too cute, eh?)and later for Gary Lewis and the Playboys.

Midnite

Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney

Also keep this in mind. We eliminated the bottom 60% of entries already. So if you're frustrated by any of what is left, imagine sorting through the stuff that was eliminated. It was a whole different level of examples of what not to do.

I really like using sound effects sometimes (if you're bored enough to click on my link below, I use them on "Andy's Hair" and "Texas Surf Monsters"). BUT...if you OPEN with a sound effect and then that's it, then it had better be a great one that remains relevant somehow throughout the song...but that's rarely the case. Usually it just means "hey check it out, I opened with the sound of real rain...can you believe it?"

It works perfectly for "Riders on the Storm" and "Money". But in both cases, the sound is integrated into the song. The storm sounds return in "Riders"...and the cash register is used as an instrument along with the music in "Money".

I can imagine the problem as far as the J.P.F. song contestsSubmissions,In general it has worked on some big hits but amateurs should avoid it, Why not scrub your intro (music only) altogether and have a sung intro to your song for instance" The Loveliness of Paris is somehow sadly gay "Et-ceterare I Left My Heart In San Francisco".

I did this on a recent song and it’s been snapped up by “Universal Music”

I may be the discordant note but I love sound fx and even in intros it's true that intros are way too important sometimes to squander it with an effect, and I mix often film music and songs themselves, thus great part of my creepy atmosphere is created by a bed of fx and creepy sounds. I've used for example fx in the intros of women of ireland tragedy, but if you go and facing the dream closing credits so i should say if it's a mistake LOL I do it often, but I intend to repeat it

You do a style and genre of music that uses atmosphere as an instrument and it's an important part. That can't be said about Country music or even Pop music where it just gets in the way.

There are always a few stellar examples where something can work when it rarely ever works otherwise. Just because a song from nearly 40 years ago used a rain sound effect to good success, doesn't mean that using rain at the start of a song for 30 seconds makes it a good song too. In some cases it simply makes a bad song even more intolerable. = )

Your stuff is all about mood and ethereal sounds. Your visual show supports that as well. It's expected in that case and you'd miss it if it wasn't there. But for most other styles/types/genres of music, it just doesn't work very often and just because once every couple generations a song pulls it off, it hardly suggests it's a good thing to do.

Here's my gripe, though not that serious. Along with sound effects, I get a little irked at recorded count ups to a song, distorted vocals (someone trying to sound like Tom Waits, Steve Earl, John Prine etc.). I don't find that original. Some songs sound fine instrumentally but the vocal sounds out of place. The intro sounds good, than when that odd voice comes in I look for the "complete" button.

That's a matter of taste. Any trick or technique is only as good as the artist wielding it. Some do it well, some don't. You can't automatically discount someone who uses a technique that someone else also used. If you did, then pretty much ALL music is guilty of stealing from someone that came before them. Only 1 person did each thing the first time. You mentioned Tom, Steve and John.. that means that even if one of them invented what you're describing, the other 2 are guilty of stealing it. So why say it's okay for them, but not for someone else? That's an unfair double standard. All music technique and style is stolen/borrowed/copied from someone else. You have to judge each piece on it's own merit to be fair.

I don't discount anything. That's why I said that it's not a serious gripe. It is as you said Brian, it's a matter of taste. I never was impressed with people who distort their voices for effect(Joe Cocker being an exception, but I don't think he can sing any other way). The three people that I mentioned have original vocal styles and I enjoy all of them, but a few of the entries are obvious imitations in my ears. They sound so much like these guys that you would think that is who it is. I do listen to all of the songs on the album and have actually flagged other songs on the same album that I liked.Tom, Steve and john are each unique, but they don't sing in the same voice that they speak in. They have three different styles.I hope you didn't get my "I look for the complete button" comment wrong. I meant something completely different. I was talking about when a vocal sounds so out of place with the rest of the song that I can't flag it, I have to move on.

Actually you don't have to justify what you like or don't like. That's why we tell people to pick what moves THEM. This is simply a discussion external of your personal picks.

I get bored myself by sound effects etc. When I first started gettings lots of music from JPF member, that wasn't the case. I thought more often that it was cool. But then I started listening to 100's.. then 1000's... the 10,000's... etc.. and my opinion changed from experience. And I think artists could learn from that reality. What seems cool to themselves, or even their friends who may have little exposure to music, may seem like an obvious rip off to someone with a wider perspective. And that can harm them. On the other hand, if they are able to do something really amazing with that sound effect or approach, perhaps they'll be the best that ever did it. Being the first rarely means being the best. And things that have been done many times before CAN be improved on. If they couldn't, then music would long ago have been dead.

I love sound effects! I think they can be used to great effect to enhance the music. A great example is how Bjork used the sound of the train for the rhythm of I've Seen It All. Or how about the thunder cracks in When The Rain Begins To Fall?

I also quite frequently use sound effects in my own music. Up To You, for example, has a bunch of sci-fi noises at the start and a kind of twirl sound to accentuate the line "traveled back in time" in the second verse.

Of course, just like any other instrument the crux is in how you use it.

This is a very good topic. In going through as many of these JPF submissions, I have found one of the absolutely most irritating things are those sound effects openings. I think it was cool in the days of 70's and 80's arena rock. Loved the cannons going off on "Those About to Rock." or the bells in "Hell's Bells' Loved watching Boston and Queen as the house lights dimmed and the music started blowing your head off. It was great live. But now we have so much more imput going on in our every day lives, computers, Intenet, television, radio, movies, sporting events, and when I am into songs, I want to hear the body of the song, get the message across and move on. Then I can decide whether to play it again or not. I would really suggest people drop those sound effects especially if they are trying to pitch songs from any perspective or in the case of booking acts or the like, it woudl be hit them with the song and get them hooked first. Sound effects for me only move me in a certain way. Away from the song.

I wouldn't quite agree with Marc (and remember, I am not an industry professional). I think sound effects should be used only very sparingly, and only when the song absolutely requires it. Otherwise, you're cheapening the impact--and if it gets cheap enough, there's no point in doing it.

Since anything I write is going to end up being performed live, I eschew sound effects altogether, because they can't be replicated on stage. (There are exceptions. Our harmonica player actually found and bought a South American percussion instrument that imitates a bullfrog, for use in "The Frog Next Door." It's called--surprise!--a "ribbit.")

well as i said before I don't think there's any rule or any law, and i guess it all depends on the song self. In my case my show is a bit of storytelling and it's atmospheric itself, so we do enhance with effects to bring the mood, drawn lady, watery synths, equalization effects... that kind of stuff. And about the stage we enhance the effects with accoustic effects for example, whistling on flute for winds, or spinning a windband or digeridoos, actually it's funny. Guess it wouldn't work maybe for some genres but it works really well on others. I guess in some songs they could be annoying and drive attention away, but yet again we must see if they go along with the concept of the song self and how it works specifically in the track in question. We have all sorts of accoustic things to enchance the fx then on stage, you can use from synths, to theremins, to rare percussion staff. recommendation. have you heard of "WATERPHONES" , it's an instrument that's used in soundtracks, make the weirdest coolest sounds ever

Sound Fx are just another tool in the armoury of a song producer. They can be used to great effect as per "riders" or be completely naff and OTT as per many pop songs. There are many examples of both. Naff CHEESY rap or RnB records often start with a scratchy track or a phony phone call. Then of course there is the 1812 overture.

I'm now building an "artificial wind" effect with double ocarinas, windbands and aeolian harps (leavning strings to the wind self) conceptually is fun! LOL. shame on me I cannot help it!

Oh Priscilla...You SOOO BAAADDDD...:-)....But Brian is right, the sound effects are such a vital part of your music that I don't even think of them in the same category as the ones added to the beginning of songs because someone got it in their head that it would be an original way to make a mediocre song better.

Your music is ethereal from beginning to end, the way that it should be....Oh, and please keep us updated about your potential show in Baltimore.

This it is all a very subjective subject and understand the context. I am coming from a perspective of pitching a song or singer to an industry professional for certain things, as in booking, contests or in conjunction with many other songs as in the JPF contest. In the context of a singer's album or live show,as I said, I have very much enjoyed sound effects as in the shows I mentioned beforehand.

I continue to remember some other great Pop Tunes with SE Tracks (that I think were Openers:) Pink Floyd using a bevy of Clocks, ticking & striking-away..(Title Forgotten)...& anyone else remember Martin Denny's "Yellow Bird" (Think..was the title..) an Instrumental, Bracketed-&-well-laced with Bird Calls. Michael Jackson's "Thriller" CD had several Songs opened-well with SE's..best I can barely-recollect.

Think "Leader of the Pack"..'60's Hit..opened (& certainly closed) with Motorcycle SE's. Jimi Hendrix "Foxy Lady" opened with a truly GRABBER S.E. that sorta reminds my Subconscious of a Blend of a Gigantic Train/Bus coming to a Stop..(right inside your head.) (Done by Jimi's Guitar, giving Credit Where Due!)

Catchiest S.E. I can still remember: The kinda CLICK-CHINGS on the original "Tainted Love/Where Did Our Love Go?" percussion track (by I forget who). The S.E. was created, I understand, by recording a metallic surface (like a Screwdriver) whacking against some cables that held up a Radio Transmission Tower.

Who needs a Synth when ya got a Good Screwdriver Handy, eh? ;-)>

&..there's that Baby Cryin' on the way in on Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely"...that Hooked Us from the Get-Go.

Catchiest S.E. I can still remember: The kinda CLICK-CHINGS on the original "Tainted Love/Where Did Our Love Go?" percussion track (by I forget who). The S.E. was created, I understand, by recording a metallic surface (like a Screwdriver) whacking against some cables that held up a Radio Transmission Tower.

Who needs a Synth when ya got a Good Screwdriver Handy, eh? ;-)>

Ol' Stan

Stan Ol' Boy, those cables are called "guy wires"(don't ask me why)...And banging on them with a hammer is exactly what George Lucas did to get one of the sound effects in Star Wars. Can't remember if it was a gun, or the sound that two light sabers make when they hit each other...Pretty high tech stuff.

But I'll repeat, even though effects have been used successfully on occasion, when you're judging thousands of songs, by the time you've heard the same sounds a dozen times, then the only affect the effect has, is to make ya wanna scream "Step away from the gadgets and get to the music already!!!!"

My favorite band A-ha use sound effects mostly in their recording. The classic is Crying in the Rain they revive the songs from the 60 by Everly Brothers. They used thunder storm and rain effects

Another is the Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel la la lie.... Pooosh!!! La lala la lalalie lalalaie and so on.

Sometimes when Im producing our published songs I try to emulate one of the sounds using electric guitar especially if the lyrics or the story pertains to a certain place where this particular sounds exist.

My co writer Stan also love to use sound effects too. When im reading his lyrics in the lyric board if he feels he likes to put sound effects in the song he will write it like "ka ching" "vroooom!!!"

If you hear a lot of intro during screening make sure the long intro is the main hook for that song. For me if they use the intro as the hook I tick them. Sometimes long intro can move me.

But poorly done intro like sounds like a loop i turn it down.

If they using sound effects just for fun of it and you cannot associate it to the songs click next.

I think I'm kind of on the other side of the fence from a lot of you with this. I say screw it. If I like the sound of an effect, I'll lay into it for 15 seconds with nothing else going on, haha. Of course, I also have never had to screen a ton of recordings, and I may not be approaching things from a very commercially-smart perspective.

You should get involved in our screening process now and in the future. Being aware of these types of issues can be very helpful to your continuing education on what works and what doesn't.

Brian

Hi Brian, I like your name. And I love the community going on here. I would be interested in the screening process. Is there a link to someplace where I can read about it? ... how it works and everything... sorry, I'm still really green here and soaking stuff up.

Hmmm. This is a good one. i thing a tune has to stand on it's own as a vocal/acoustic version with soul--then filled in first. If theres nothing to build on, there's nothing there to begin with--effects cant help--just paint on an ugly house. Trick is not to over-do a good thing. There are good instances of sound effects that ADD, but they are rare and not the norm.

I also want to add that some fx can be used as basic instruments, turning to be percussive and even a leading instrument. I don't think there's any rule about it, as I said, if you integrate it cleverly within the theme. I come from film-music, so the use of waterphones and other fx is very very usual, and almost the law and not the exception. In terms of the standard pop-rock hit I should not say as it's not my field.