New to Trailspace, few questions :)

Just ran across this site last night. Decided to register as I saw a broad range of GREAT replies to several threads on here. Everyone seems so willing to help and share knowledge. So on to my questions :)

I looked at like 20-30 different packs and found this one to best fit my needs. This will be a everyday carry. I plan on using this for my day hike pack as well. A few items that will be in this pack at all times are:

Surefire flash light with a 160 lumens bulb with extra batteries for it.

Jeeses ! Gun, ammo, knives, cellphone and firesteel out on a dayhike, but no warm clothes (like mittens, wool garments and such). Also not a hint about something for orientation, gps, map and compass. Is it really allowed to make an open fire all places in CO? What about LNT? How you heat the water if there are no wood or not allowed to make open fires? What about a burner and some fuel? Maybe not so macho, but useful for some of us.

Jeeses ! Gun, ammo, knives, cellphone and firesteel out on a dayhike, but no warm clothes (like mittens, wool garments and such). Also not a hint about something for orientation, gps, map and compass. Is it really allowed to make an open fire all places in CO? What about LNT? How you heat the water if there are no wood or not allowed to make open fires? What about a burner and some fuel? Maybe not so macho, but useful for some of us.

" This WILL be a revolving list and change as weather changes. This is just a general carry.. The pack is 1800ci so it has some room.

Also just some general advice on what to carry in addition to or a replacement for what I currently have."

Maybe I wasn't clear :) Just a few lines from my OP. Looking for ideas. Its a daily carry/day hiker. So what that means this pack will be with every day everywhere I go. Hence the extra ammo because I do carry EVERYDAY, EVERYWHERE I go, expect places that don't allow CCW ie, court houses etc. When I go to hike this is where I was hoping for the suggestions. In addition to what I have listed. I would just add in the stuff when I hiked and it wasn't to bulky and heavy I would just leave it all in the pack. Nothing macho about having a piece of equipment that can protect people that have no need or desire to hurt a innocent person (you, me, kids etc). Curious if you had read the above posting as well?

"I was looking at a Guydesign 32oz SS as well as a Nalgeen32oz" SS=stainless steel

I was looking at a esbit burner for an alternative (primary) heating source for the water boiling. I WILL start a fire no matter if my life depended on it. I'll pay a fine later if the state deems it necessary to fine me for staying alive. I ordered a fleece jacket which is on back order so that will be included in the kit once it arrives. Looking into a dedicated pair of pants for "4 season" use as well to stuff in the pack. It's not a huge pack, but its not to small either. I don't want to over stuff but at the same point I don't want to miss something that could potentially save my life. Have you seen the movie 127 hours? This is kinda how I want to base my pack from.. Maybe just some "general" stuff to carry. I have a compass and a GPS that will go along with me when I do dayhikes. I am proficient in map reading and general N,S,E,W barring.

Jason, Otto lives in Norway where people do not carry handguns, so that colors his reaction. Most of us don't either. We have had discussions on guns here before, so I will set that aside.

Your list looks more like one someone in the military or a hunter would put together, not one the average backpacker would carry for a day hike, so that is why some of the responses read the way they do. You won't find too many people here spending $400 on a camo daypack that weighs almost 5 pounds either.

You have some of what hikers and backpackers refer to as the "10 essentials" which has expanded to the "14 essentials" on some lists. Use the search box in the upper right hand corner to find articles and threads about the list. Compare it to yours.

For me, I would have a different pack (lighter), not have the gun or the flashlight (headlamp instead and maybe a very tiny LED backup), no Leatherman or big knife (a Swiss Army Knife and ski binding repair tool if I have skis or snowshoes), food, tea or cocoa mix, small cook kit with stove and fuel (canister, or if very cold, liquid fuel), Bic or similar lighter along with a small sparker, extra clothes - rain gear, gloves, hat, insulation (down or fleece jacket, insulated pants) if cold; if snow on the ground - small shovel (Voile), BD Winter Bivy (very light cover, not insulated at all), eyeglasses, small med kit, GPS, map and compass, no phone (usually no signal anyway), water (bottle usually), small amount of duct tape (wrapped around my bottle). That's about it. Obviously for people in the desert or a different time of year, a different list.

Jason, Otto lives in Norway where people do not carry handguns, so that colors his reaction. Most of us don't either. We have had discussions on guns here before, so I will set that aside.

Your list looks more like one someone in the military or a hunter would put together, not one the average backpacker would carry for a day hike, so that is why some of the responses read the way they do. You won't find too many people here spending $400 on a camo daypack that weighs almost 5 pounds either.

You have some of what hikers and backpackers refer to as the "10 essentials" which has expanded to the "14 essentials" on some lists. Use the search box in the upper right hand corner to find articles and threads about the list. Compare it to yours.

For me, I would have a different pack (lighter), not have the gun or the flashlight (headlamp instead and maybe a very tiny LED backup), no Leatherman or big knife (a Swiss Army Knife and ski binding repair tool if I have skis or snowshoes), food, tea or cocoa mix, small cook kit with stove and fuel (canister, or if very cold, liquid fuel), Bic or similar lighter along with a small sparker, extra clothes - rain gear, gloves, hat, insulation (down or fleece jacket, insulated pants) if cold; if snow on the ground - small shovel (Voile), BD Winter Bivy (very light cover, not insulated at all), eyeglasses, small med kit, GPS, map and compass, no phone (usually no signal anyway), water (bottle usually), small amount of duct tape (wrapped around my bottle). That's about it. Obviously for people in the desert or a different time of year, a different list.

Thanks Tom!

Yea I did have the "ten essentials" in mind when putting together the list for my pack. Flashlight for me has to stay, water proof, aircraft aluminum so its lightweight. I am going to get a smaller lighter headlamp for *daily* use. Surefire is simply for back up. I think a leatherman should be on every hikers list.. IMHO. :) The benchmade knife is actually quite small. Clothes I am looking into. I am deff going to search here and see what has been good durable stuff people have had success with. I was looking at a Jetboil with 1 extra canister for longer hikes. I plan on getting a eVent type sheel to go along with my fleece. You have some great ideas for the list.. Stuff I completely overlooked.

I have to agree with Tom on all of his points. I have been backpacking and mountaineering for almost fifty years, and never needed a Leatherman. The only guys I see toting such hardware around are either survivalist types, or gear heads. I have yet to encounter any situation that a very basic pocket knife and posidriver (for ski bindings and ice tools) cannot address. Less weight, less expensive than a leatherman too. Do keep in mind the greater part of this survivalist credo you are emulating is based more on your ability to make do and improvise, rather than acquiring and schlepping around all sorts of heavy duty stuff. Likewise the special forces style day pack is way overkill. Your choice of day pack weighs almost as much as my expedition size Kelty external frame pack. And I have no idea what you intend to shoot, let alone why it would require more ammo than what a standard clip carries. It is just more weight to slow you down IMO, and I am by no means one of those ultra light type guys.

You might consider throwing a couple of Bic butane lighters into your kit. Yea, they don't reek of that survivalist mystique, but they are a lot more convenient that a fire steel, and the mission reliability is built in by carrying several for back up. Instead of chem lights consider a couple of cheap led lamps for the intended purpose, they are brighter, last longer, and have greater versatility. Team them up with those spring steel binder clips available from any office supply store and you have a light you can stick anywhere. Regarding the FastJacket eyewear; toting a pair of $220+ shades into the tulles is an unanticipated cost ready to happen; everyone I know has either lost sunglasses in the back country or broke a pair circumstantial to these activities. There are plenty of quality specs that are more durable and won't cost dearly if gone MIA.

I have other obvious suggestions, too, such as gloves, sun screen, lip balm, TP, cat hole shovel, patches for blistered feet, emergency money, battery jumper cables, Claymore mines, etc. but the list you provided and the notion you intend to carry this stuff EVERYWHERE you go sort of has me at a crossroads; there isn't any such thing as a go anywhere equipment list.

OK now we are talking. It is a sort of ten essentials list that is wanted by JS, very sound.

First I must argee with those that say that there are no general list that is valid in all terrains and seasons. Still a list may be helpful if this is in mind. But also a list of what to do before or under the hike is useful. Here in Norway we have a "mountan code" that relates to how to prepare and behave under a hike. At the bottom there even is a packing list for hut-to-hut hiking multiple days in our mountains.

To americanize this and adopt it to just dayhikes you can omit the sheet sleeping bag (aka bedliner) and instead put in a steripen or similar water purifier (all water in our mountains are drinkable) and a burner of some kind. Warm food and water is essential!

CO is a mounainous state, much in common with Norway, but conditions may be different in some fields. Therefore the 5.th rule "learn from locals" really adopts the code to anywhere in the world. If the majority of hikers in CO carry a gun and ammo, then OK. If not, then this is surely not one of the ten essentials. I see that you are ex military, and they of course solve every problem this way. But you are a civilian now, got to behave civil sometime you know.

I see you are a young man with xxl clothes, hardly the easy to scare type. If most hikers in CO can do without the gun and ammo so should you. If protection from animals is the thing, why not get a signal pen and some flares for that. Weighs mere to nothing, and there even is some shells that make noise (like a grenade exploding). I dare to say that any bear or cougar would think twice then. I have one such pen myself for safety.

Every winter before xmas I buy a new supply of flares and shoot the old ones up on new years eve. Great fun, and ensures that the flares are fresh for the tours next year.

You picked the right the site to ask for help, information and differing opionions.

I took a look at your list of what to take for a day hike a noticed a few things. Mostly I noticed a few things about the comments made about what you have chosen to to take with you in your day pack for day hikes.

I think everything your are taking is just fine for day hikes if you are willing to carry the weight. Many people are into this new movement called UL (Ultra Light). Of cource with that being said, many are not, esp. me.

One of the purposes of carring a loaded day pack is not what you will need for the day. Heck it's a day trip, you might only need a bottle or jug of water and nothing else as your just out for the day right? Wrong. One of the most important aspects of the properly packed day pack is that you take items that allow to adapt for changing conditions as well as you could end up being out for much longer than a day. Colorado is a big state with alot of land and you may take a wrong turn/become immobile and be out for many nights. If you get lost you could be out there for a while. All the items on you list have their intended purpose.

The Leatherman tool, never leave home without it. When I'm one the road I have three: a Super Tool, Wave and a Crunch. When I'm packing I carry the wave. The wave is a good choice as its one of the lighter members of the Leatherman family. I use my Leatherman at least 4+ times a day whether at home, on the road, or packing. One thing I've noticed is that when I have a Leatherman (or any other multi-tool) is that everyone else I'm with wants to use it.

Reagarding your choice of the FAST Pack EDC. I would agree with Tom D who said "You won't find too many people here spending $400 on a camo daypack that weighs almost 5 pounds either." That is mostly true, however a lot of people would spend $200+/- on such a pack. A cursory search show's me that there are two currently on Ebay one, with a bid of $130 and one at a buy it now price of $200. Regarding the weight. A burly pack is burly and worth it's weight to some if it lasts a life time.

Some have suggested that you skip the fire starting steel and just bring a lighter. I say bring both. The way I understand it, fire starting steels take time to learn how to use properly. What better time to practice when on a day hike. If you can't make it work or don't have the time, pull out the lighter. The last time I was at Costco I bought 4 packages of cheapy lighters at a price of $6 for (50 lighters) per package. I usually have one lighter in each of my packs pockets, one in each front pants pocket, and one in each coat pocket. I really hate running out of fire. It also allows me me to give away lighters to people on the trail who don't have fire. It's a wonderful inexpensive gift to other's on trail, as they cost a little over $.008 each. Do not forget the usefulness of firestarter, it can make a bad wet day much warmer and dryer.

Regarding your choice of toting along your Glock 27 with extra ammo. If you decide to pack, that is a good choice being that it is a large caliber compact gun which means it has a limited holding capacity of six shots as it was designed to be a light weight back-up piece for law enforcement. Being that it has a limited six shot mag, I would also carry one or two backups mags. Besides the aspect of having a gun for protection, a gun like that makes a big bang will scare way someing much faster than my voice. As well as being a tool of protection, if you are lost, the sound of a gun shot carries much, much further than a voice. If you are lost and someone is looking for you they are much more likely to hear a .40 cal. gun shot than your voice. Some one up above mentioned using flares. As Colorado is often very, very, very dry even when there is not a burn ban you most certianly do not want to start a forest fire.

I grew up in Colorado and never once used a fuel stove unless there was a no burn ban in effect and usually when there is a burn ban in effect it's to hot for me to hike. As far as LNT (Leave No Trace), that is just not possible and really should be re-named. If you poop in the woods and bury it you are leaving a trace. To call it leave no trace is like sweeping it under the proverbial rug. As most people would be disgusted and unwilling to carry their waste by products (and used toilet paper)out of the back country, we are all leaving our traces (and this includes dog poop which most people don't bother to bury). On a related issue, many now carry a plastic shovel/trowel to dig cat holes. They don't call them the Rocky Mountains for nothing. Here in Washington I have found many instances where it takes way to long to dig a hole with a plactic trowel and in fact a couple of times have not been able to break thru the rocks/roots. If you do decide to carry a trowel for cat holes I would recommend the small screw together metal trowel/shovel. I found my plactic one to be usless and thru it away. A plastic trowel makes sence if you can dig a hole with it but is usless if you cannot.

I would say bring/wear what ever eyewhere you are comfortable with. Try buying your $200 eyewhere for much less on Ebay. I've noticed that if I never wear my expensive suglasses cause I might lose them, I never wear my expensive sunglass as I might loose them. I know that I'm jsut as likely to lose or break them in the backcountry as when not in the backcountry. You might keep you glass on a string to keep them around your neck. I have not lost a pair since I started doing this and I've been wearing the same pair for six years now. I've even had to have the nose pieces replaced twice. I prefer Maui-Jim's myself and usually get them on Ebay for 30-40% on the dollar. Try buying them in the middle of winter and you will score bigger better deals. Bring a backup pair inthe event you do lose or break your glasses.

I would recomend that you bring a small mirror, for signialing as well as a whistle. Carry extra wool clothing that can double as your night time sleeping attire in your bivy. If you have extra room bring extra wool socks, as there's nothing like hiking in two day old swetty socks. "Extra" high energy food is a must.

I would bring what ever you want as long as you have the essentials, what ever you decide is essential. If by chance you have any room left over bring that really cool gear you haven't had the chance to use yet to practice with as day hikes are suppose to be fun. The more weight you have the more excersize you will get and the better you will be able to carry larger loads when required. This of cource flys in the face of the new UL trend and is mearly MHO.

There are other things mention above that I did not touch on as this ones post is now getting quite long. A water purifier is a good idea as mentioned above as are a number of other things.

Oh yea, Colorado is a cool state with much to do. Have lots of fun and exciting times.

I have to agree with Tom on all of his points. I have been backpacking and mountaineering for almost fifty years, and never needed a Leatherman. The only guys I see toting such hardware around are either survivalist types, or gear heads. I have yet to encounter any situation that a very basic pocket knife and posidriver (for ski bindings and ice tools) cannot address. Less weight, less expensive than a leatherman too. Do keep in mind the greater part of this survivalist credo you are emulating is based more on your ability to make do and improvise, rather than acquiring and schlepping around all sorts of heavy duty stuff. Likewise the special forces style day pack is way overkill. Your choice of day pack weighs almost as much as my expedition size Kelty external frame pack. And I have no idea what you intend to shoot, let alone why it would require more ammo than what a standard clip carries. It is just more weight to slow you down IMO, and I am by no means one of those ultra light type guys.

You might consider throwing a couple of Bic butane lighters into your kit. Yea, they don't reek of that survivalist mystique, but they are a lot more convenient that a fire steel, and the mission reliability is built in by carrying several for back up. Instead of chem lights consider a couple of cheap led lamps for the intended purpose, they are brighter, last longer, and have greater versatility. Team them up with those spring steel binder clips available from any office supply store and you have a light you can stick anywhere. Regarding the FastJacket eyewear; toting a pair of $220+ shades into the tulles is an unanticipated cost ready to happen; everyone I know has either lost sunglasses in the back country or broke a pair circumstantial to these activities. There are plenty of quality specs that are more durable and won't cost dearly if gone MIA.

I have other obvious suggestions, too, such as gloves, sun screen, lip balm, TP, cat hole shovel, patches for blistered feet, emergency money, battery jumper cables, Claymore mines, etc. but the list you provided and the notion you intend to carry this stuff EVERYWHERE you go sort of has me at a crossroads; there isn't any such thing as a go anywhere equipment list.

Ed

Why? As I stated IMHO=in my honest opinion, an opinion is just that. Tom did share some GREAT info and I gave credit where do :) As I stated this is an everyday carry. If you are kinda prepared you are never prepared imo. Just a simple saying. Good to have and not need it, then need it and not have it. Again just a saying. I am confused as to why you think my pack is overkill when its a EDC/hiker. It has great durability, it will be tossed around, street, gravel, dirt, mud etc. It will be put through all 4 seasons and used heavily. This is why I chose this style and type of pack. It is not intended for ultra light back packing. But instead heavy daily use. Just cause some of my gear is a *little heavy* doesn't mean I will have hard time carrying it. Generally speaking I have seen many back packers packs weighing in around 15-25lbs ish depending the season and part of the year. I am sure a lot of people going out and have NO issues and make it back to there car. Colorado's weather changes on a whim.

I never intend to shoot anything. It's there in case of an emergency, simple as that. If you were to run across me around town you would have NO idea I was carrying. The bic lighters are a fantastic idea! Again this is why I am here for help and suggestions. Eye ware I always have 2 of. I have an extra set in my vehicle as well as lenses for both. :) Gloves I am going to order special. Its a set that I have used for years and lasted me just as long during a 12-15 month Iraq deployment. Field tested and proven durable. Little on the high end but worth IMO. Few things I will pay a premium for.

Didn't realize I would get such a facetious reply on the later half. I did say a "general carry" There is such thing as a general for every person. It all depends on you as a person does it not? I may like subway, you may not. Does that mean you have to eat cause I do?

OK now we are talking. It is a sort of ten essentials list that is wanted by JS, very sound.

First I must argee with those that say that there are no general list that is valid in all terrains and seasons. Still a list may be helpful if this is in mind. But also a list of what to do before or under the hike is useful. Here in Norway we have a "mountan code" that relates to how to prepare and behave under a hike. At the bottom there even is a packing list for hut-to-hut hiking multiple days in our mountains.

To americanize this and adopt it to just dayhikes you can omit the sheet sleeping bag (aka bedliner) and instead put in a steripen or similar water purifier (all water in our mountains are drinkable) and a burner of some kind. Warm food and water is essential!

CO is a mounainous state, much in common with Norway, but conditions may be different in some fields. Therefore the 5.th rule "learn from locals" really adopts the code to anywhere in the world. If the majority of hikers in CO carry a gun and ammo, then OK. If not, then this is surely not one of the ten essentials. I see that you are ex military, and they of course solve every problem this way. But you are a civilian now, got to behave civil sometime you know.

I see you are a young man with xxl clothes, hardly the easy to scare type. If most hikers in CO can do without the gun and ammo so should you. If protection from animals is the thing, why not get a signal pen and some flares for that. Weighs mere to nothing, and there even is some shells that make noise (like a grenade exploding). I dare to say that any bear or cougar would think twice then. I have one such pen myself for safety.

Every winter before xmas I buy a new supply of flares and shoot the old ones up on new years eve. Great fun, and ensures that the flares are fresh for the tours next year.

I think your "blanket" opinionated statement "I see that you are ex military, and they of course solve every problem this way. But you are a civilian now, got to behave civil sometime you know". It's the way of the military to solve issues with guns.(not always) I am sorry you do not have the option to carry. That is a choice that was taken away from you as a citizen. For you to sit here and make that statement sickens me. "Behave civil" What have I done to prove other wise? If the state of CO deemed me to be unfit to carry a personally own fire arm, then I would not have a concealed carry license. It sounds to me you think I am some type of barbarian cause I carry?

I am average. Not some huge guy nor a small one. Just average. The pens are a great idea, and I think I will add those to the list ty! I was also looking at bear spray as well. Changing those items out once a year is a great idea also! Keep em fresh.

You picked the right the site to ask for help, information and differing opionions.

I took a look at your list of what to take for a day hike a noticed a few things. Mostly I noticed a few things about the comments made about what you have chosen to to take with you in your day pack for day hikes.

I think everything your are taking is just fine for day hikes if you are willing to carry the weight. Many people are into this new movement called UL (Ultra Light). Of cource with that being said, many are not, esp. me.

One of the purposes of carring a loaded day pack is not what you will need for the day. Heck it's a day trip, you might only need a bottle or jug of water and nothing else as your just out for the day right? Wrong. One of the most important aspects of the properly packed day pack is that you take items that allow to adapt for changing conditions as well as you could end up being out for much longer than a day. Colorado is a big state with alot of land and you may take a wrong turn/become immobile and be out for many nights. If you get lost you could be out there for a while. All the items on you list have their intended purpose.

The Leatherman tool, never leave home without it. When I'm one the road I have three: a Super Tool, Wave and a Crunch. When I'm packing I carry the wave. The wave is a good choice as its one of the lighter members of the Leatherman family. I use my Leatherman at least 4+ times a day whether at home, on the road, or packing. One thing I've noticed is that when I have a Leatherman (or any other multi-tool) is that everyone else I'm with wants to use it.

Reagarding your choice of the FAST Pack EDC. I would agree with Tom D who said "You won't find too many people here spending $400 on a camo daypack that weighs almost 5 pounds either." That is mostly true, however a lot of people would spend $200+/- on such a pack. A cursory search show's me that there are two currently on Ebay one, with a bid of $130 and one at a buy it now price of $200. Regarding the weight. A burly pack is burly and worth it's weight to some if it lasts a life time.

Some have suggested that you skip the fire starting steel and just bring a lighter. I say bring both. The way I understand it, fire starting steels take time to learn how to use properly. What better time to practice when on a day hike. If you can't make it work or don't have the time, pull out the lighter. The last time I was at Costco I bought 4 packages of cheapy lighters at a price of $6 for (50 lighters) per package. I usually have one lighter in each of my packs pockets, one in each front pants pocket, and one in each coat pocket. I really hate running out of fire. It also allows me me to give away lighters to people on the trail who don't have fire. It's a wonderful inexpensive gift to other's on trail, as they cost a little over $.008 each. Do not forget the usefulness of firestarter, it can make a bad wet day much warmer and dryer.

Regarding your choice of toting along your Glock 27 with extra ammo. If you decide to pack, that is a good choice being that it is a large caliber compact gun which means it has a limited holding capacity of six shots as it was designed to be a light weight back-up piece for law enforcement. Being that it has a limited six shot mag, I would also carry one or two backups mags. Besides the aspect of having a gun for protection, a gun like that makes a big bang will scare way someing much faster than my voice. As well as being a tool of protection, if you are lost, the sound of a gun shot carries much, much further than a voice. If you are lost and someone is looking for you they are much more likely to hear a .40 cal. gun shot than your voice. Some one up above mentioned using flares. As Colorado is often very, very, very dry even when there is not a burn ban you most certianly do not want to start a forest fire.

I grew up in Colorado and never once used a fuel stove unless there was a no burn ban in effect and usually when there is a burn ban in effect it's to hot for me to hike. As far as LNT (Leave No Trace), that is just not possible and really should be re-named. If you poop in the woods and bury it you are leaving a trace. To call it leave no trace is like sweeping it under the proverbial rug. As most people would be disgusted and unwilling to carry their waste by products (and used toilet paper)out of the back country, we are all leaving our traces (and this includes dog poop which most people don't bother to bury). On a related issue, many now carry a plastic shovel/trowel to dig cat holes. They don't call them the Rocky Mountains for nothing. Here in Washington I have found many instances where it takes way to long to dig a hole with a plactic trowel and in fact a couple of times have not been able to break thru the rocks/roots. If you do decide to carry a trowel for cat holes I would recommend the small screw together metal trowel/shovel. I found my plactic one to be usless and thru it away. A plastic trowel makes sence if you can dig a hole with it but is usless if you cannot.

I would say bring/wear what ever eyewhere you are comfortable with. Try buying your $200 eyewhere for much less on Ebay. I've noticed that if I never wear my expensive suglasses cause I might lose them, I never wear my expensive sunglass as I might loose them. I know that I'm jsut as likely to lose or break them in the backcountry as when not in the backcountry. You might keep you glass on a string to keep them around your neck. I have not lost a pair since I started doing this and I've been wearing the same pair for six years now. I've even had to have the nose pieces replaced twice. I prefer Maui-Jim's myself and usually get them on Ebay for 30-40% on the dollar. Try buying them in the middle of winter and you will score bigger better deals. Bring a backup pair inthe event you do lose or break your glasses.

I would recomend that you bring a small mirror, for signialing as well as a whistle. Carry extra wool clothing that can double as your night time sleeping attire in your bivy. If you have extra room bring extra wool socks, as there's nothing like hiking in two day old swetty socks. "Extra" high energy food is a must.

I would bring what ever you want as long as you have the essentials, what ever you decide is essential. If by chance you have any room left over bring that really cool gear you haven't had the chance to use yet to practice with as day hikes are suppose to be fun. The more weight you have the more excersize you will get and the better you will be able to carry larger loads when required. This of cource flys in the face of the new UL trend and is mearly MHO.

There are other things mention above that I did not touch on as this ones post is now getting quite long. A water purifier is a good idea as mentioned above as are a number of other things.

Oh yea, Colorado is a cool state with much to do. Have lots of fun and exciting times.

apeman,

Ty for the supportive reply! What you said makes complete sense. I am not sure where some of these guys and gals hike, but in CO things can change fast. I got the pack on a great deal. Multi cam was NOT my first choice. I can't say the price I paid cause its kinda a*demo* it that makes sense? I do KNOW that there are other packs out there for cheaper. Ebay was the first place I looked after deciding on what size I wanted. They have a few nice packs and at the time I didn't see any of the TAD design packs on there. I searched my local sports stores, gun stores, and military gear shops. Most that I found were either to small or to big, or just not what I was looking for in a pack. Like I said in an earlier post I have researched close to 30-40 packs. Eberlestock, Kufaru, maxpedition, 5.11 tact, S.O Tech, Blackhawk, Gregory, Keilty, Coleman, to name a few. The list goes on.

I am going to add a pair of ripstop cargo pants, as well as a eVent shell. Fleece is going to be ordered on Monday. TAD design fleece called the "ranger Hoodie" They have a few designs and I am opting for the heavier duty material. Also a great point about having a few lighters. I think this for most of the gear. Obviously we don't want to carry 2 fleece jackets and 2 paris of boots. I think we all have that idea down ;) I am fairly custom to carrying heavier packs for long distances. As I said I am going to look in to the Ebit heater, I think it may be a better option for *gernal* carry. I mean that in the most broadest of terms. I completely forgot about safety whistles also.. Great point. It was in the back of my mind, but with all the replies to my OP I kinda lost track on some of the stuff I wanted to add.

Again I don't mind paying for something that could potentially save mine, or another persons life. Obviously if you are on a budget, which I am. Most would consider a different pack. I have to save for most things I get these days. As do most others I assume. I am going to try and be redundant and practical as I can with the hiking gear. Packing it correctly I think plays into affect as well concerning the weight.I have lots of military type stuff that would be great in a survival situation, but would not be very practical on a day hike.

I have my hands full with find some boots. I think those are going to be one of my tougher challenges. Again thanks for this very supportive reply! This is the type of responses I have been seeing all over this site.

Glad I could help and come up with some suggestions that help you and fit into your plans. I hope also that you understand that all these guys here are trying to help you in regards to the questions you asked. Most of these guys around here have been hiking/backpacking/climbing/insert your semi risky behavior, for many years and have much to share. One of the things that happens here quit often is everything get tilted towards being lighter. That happens because all the new gear is made lighter and lighter, but with that being said it also becomes more of a throw away item. I'm in the process now of figuring out boots myself. But, I'm taking the road less traveled by. If yoiu go to REI you wil find expensive throw away boots. Decent hiking boots that I saw then cost between $150 for really low end boots to 250-$400 for medium boots up to $570 for to of the line hiking/backpacking boots. Their still through away boots. Once the soles are done on the boots "they can be replaced", but the boot itself is worn out enough that is not worth the expence of re-soling the boot. I just bought six pair of the finest leather boots ever made form the late 60's, 70's early 80's for the same price as one pair of new(er) boots of different makes and models. If you want I will help you buy boots and show you how to gear up for 30-40% on the dollar, sometimes even less. Americans are really, really into buying new things at expensive prices. I can show you a different way to have all of the same or similar stuff for 50% or less. I have no problem if you want to buy new, as that is the stuff that I, or somebody like me, will by in the future as a used item at 40% cost or less. Go to gear selections and take a look at the thread "A tale of many Boots". I now have all my boots except maybe the Pivetta 5's that pillow thread is selling as well as I'd like to through in a pair of Fabiano's in the mix. you should go and look at the pillowhtreads Pivetta "5's". If their your size your might check them out. Be aware that Pivetta's run thin (narrrow). If there just a little narrow I've had great success as of late stretching out my own boots. These are boots that if taken care of could last a life time and be resoled 5+ times. I posted that I want them but I'm boot deep in my living room and I think there a little big for me so go check them out and see if they peak your interest. Keep on making the choices your making as your the one who has to carry your gear, but keep on asking advice from all who haunt these threads and forums. Also be aware that the carrying of fire arms in the backcountry is a touchy subject on this site and people will talk of it a little bit, but like many things in this day and age it is polarizing and seems like it can get out of hand. As I'm 100% for firearm rights I'm more than happy to talk to your about it but much or most of it would have to be done via PM'ing each other. Once in a while a good thread comes up about "packing in the backcountry” but the moderators have to watch it very carefully as it appears to be a touchy subject with so many. These guys/gals here collectively have 100's+ years of really good info, life and outdoor experience, ideas, stories, etc. I find that I generally get useful info out of every post regardless of what is said. Some of it can be quite funny as well. And we all do need a good laugh now and again.

Once the soles are done on the boots "they can be replaced", but the boot itself is worn out enough that is not worth the expence of re-soling the boot.

Gotta disagree with ya on that one. I have spoke with quite a few people who are on their 4th and 5th resole on the Scarpa SLs. They say they just can't seem to kill them. Maybe the Littleway stitch helps a bit. Maybe the no gore-tex liners helps.... Then again maybe its the fact that the sherpa leather is 2.8/2.9mm thick... I dunno.

Either way, the boot is built to handle many years of hard use/many resoles. I think alot of the problem is people want gear that doesn't require regular maintenance.

@ Rick-Pittsburgh : I aggree with you that there are a few of the upperend expensive boots that can be resoled but they are few and far between and usaually the very higher priced boots. I just bought $1000 worth of new or close to new Lowas, Pivettas, Zamberlans, Fabianos, Raichles, for 40 cents on the dollar. There are a ton of other old school boots that were avaliable that I passed on for various reasons and could be bought as new old stock for less than $100 a pair. I even saw some Scarpa SLs that were barely used for much less than REI has them for. I know you can't go to REI and get anything near the quality of the boots I just mentioned for $100-. I'm all for poeple buying new. Just as in past years there will be many who buy them and barely use them and I will be there in 5-10 years to pick them up for 30%-40%. Just trying to help people get great gear at great prices. A great many people want to spend lots of money on new gear. That is their choice. I think I have a beter way, IMHO.

Brian, I completely agree with ya. I believe footwear has become more geared to disposable, low maintenance models anymore for the most part.

It sort of goes with the whole tent thing you and I spoke about a bit back. I am with ya on the old school boots. Companies just seem to be more geared towards gore-tex, bright colors, synthetic materials, blah blah blah...

I think you know where I am headed on this one.

Jason, boots are one of the hardest purchases(if not the hardest) you will make as far as gear goes.

Brian, I completely agree with ya. I believe footwear has become more geared to disposable, low maintenance models anymore for the most part.

It sort of goes with the whole tent thing you and I spoke about a bit back. I am with ya on the old school boots. Companies just seem to be more geared towards gore-tex, bright colors, synthetic materials, blah blah blah...

I think you know where I am headed on this one.

Jason, boots are one of the hardest purchases(if not the hardest) you will make as far as gear goes.

I agree 100%. For me boots were/are the hardest piece of outdoor equiptment that I've had nailing down. I am however about to put that one to bed for the last time. Instead of me going to the boot store, I brought the boot store to me. So far it's working but I'm still in the initial stages of testing at this point.

Glad I could help and come up with some suggestions that help you and fit into your plans. I hope also that you understand that all these guys here are trying to help you in regards to the questions you asked. Most of these guys around here have been hiking/backpacking/climbing/insert your semi risky behavior, for many years and have much to share. One of the things that happens here quit often is everything get tilted towards being lighter. That happens because all the new gear is made lighter and lighter, but with that being said it also becomes more of a throw away item. I'm in the process now of figuring out boots myself. But, I'm taking the road less traveled by. If yoiu go to REI you wil find expensive throw away boots. Decent hiking boots that I saw then cost between $150 for really low end boots to 250-$400 for medium boots up to $570 for to of the line hiking/backpacking boots. Their still through away boots. Once the soles are done on the boots "they can be replaced", but the boot itself is worn out enough that is not worth the expence of re-soling the boot. I just bought six pair of the finest leather boots ever made form the late 60's, 70's early 80's for the same price as one pair of new(er) boots of different makes and models. If you want I will help you buy boots and show you how to gear up for 30-40% on the dollar, sometimes even less. Americans are really, really into buying new things at expensive prices. I can show you a different way to have all of the same or similar stuff for 50% or less. I have no problem if you want to buy new, as that is the stuff that I, or somebody like me, will by in the future as a used item at 40% cost or less. Go to gear selections and take a look at the thread "A tale of many Boots". I now have all my boots except maybe the Pivetta 5's that pillow thread is selling as well as I'd like to through in a pair of Fabiano's in the mix. you should go and look at the pillowhtreads Pivetta "5's". If their your size your might check them out. Be aware that Pivetta's run thin (narrrow). If there just a little narrow I've had great success as of late stretching out my own boots. These are boots that if taken care of could last a life time and be resoled 5+ times. I posted that I want them but I'm boot deep in my living room and I think there a little big for me so go check them out and see if they peak your interest. Keep on making the choices your making as your the one who has to carry your gear, but keep on asking advice from all who haunt these threads and forums. Also be aware that the carrying of fire arms in the backcountry is a touchy subject on this site and people will talk of it a little bit, but like many things in this day and age it is polarizing and seems like it can get out of hand. As I'm 100% for firearm rights I'm more than happy to talk to your about it but much or most of it would have to be done via PM'ing each other. Once in a while a good thread comes up about "packing in the backcountry” but the moderators have to watch it very carefully as it appears to be a touchy subject with so many. These guys/gals here collectively have 100's+ years of really good info, life and outdoor experience, ideas, stories, etc. I find that I generally get useful info out of every post regardless of what is said. Some of it can be quite funny as well. And we all do need a good laugh now and again.

I am up for some good reading through PM's.. I love to save! I don't doubt anyone's knowledge here.. Main reason I signed up :) I don't want to share what I think about people and carry laws, and opinions and what not. It's theirs and they can keep it ;) Pretty much anything else I am all ears.

So ya wanna buy boot's. I would say the starting point is figuring out if you want Old School Leather Boots or if you want newer boot's like they sell at REI. Both ways have there perils. Buying at REI is expensive but they let you return anything from the way I understand it. You will have to look at there return policy and talk to others here about if it works, I hear it does. That means if they don't fit you can go back and get different ones, both make and model wise. To get a good pair of new boots today I believe you will be in the starting range of 275+/- and I saw that they go up to $570. Or you can go old school and get some boot's from the 60's/70's/80's. In the past month I've found 20 pairs of boots that I was seriously considering. All were under $100 and some were as low as $35. Three that I got are new old stock. Two have no time outside as far as I can tell the were just worn around the house, and one has some use but even these only have very slight toe wear. Different people like different boots. I find that allot of it depends on the shape of ones foot. Pivettas are narrow, Fabiano's are med, and the Lowas, Raichle's are wide. But I'm finding that I can fit into narrow boots pretty easy by buying a little big and stretching them. First thing I would do is listen to what everybody here has to say. I would go to REI and check out their boots. Allot of the manufactures of olds school boots are making boots to this day. You will find that most dislike Gore-tex in boots. I hate it and will never buy another pair of boots with Gore-tex. They do make ok motorcycle boots as the wind blows on them at high speeds so they don't get quite as hot. What size feet do you have including width. Are your feet the same size. Any wired protrusions or conjoined parts sticking out of your feet making it hard to fit shoes or boot in the past? If your willing to wait a bit you will find cheaper prices in the middle of winter when very few buy outdoor gear. but there pretty cheap now as well. If your wiling to wait you will also find some great prices on new school boots. Sometimes people get new boots and jsut sell them for whatever reason. Allot of the people here can tell you where to get better prices on new school boots as well. Utmost enjoy buying your new boots, it will make it a much more pleasant experience.

So ya wanna buy boot's. I would say the starting point is figuring out if you want Old School Leather Boots or if you want newer boot's like they sell at REI. Both ways have there perils. Buying at REI is expensive but they let you return anything from the way I understand it. You will have to look at there return policy and talk to others here about if it works, I hear it does. That means if they don't fit you can go back and get different ones, both make and model wise. To get a good pair of new boots today I believe you will be in the starting range of 275+/- and I saw that they go up to $570. Or you can go old school and get some boot's from the 60's/70's/80's. In the past month I've found 20 pairs of boots that I was seriously considering. All were under $100 and some were as low as $35. Three that I got are new old stock. Two have no time outside as far as I can tell the were just worn around the house, and one has some use but even these only have very slight toe wear. Different people like different boots. I find that allot of it depends on the shape of ones foot. Pivettas are narrow, Fabiano's are med, and the Lowas, Raichle's are wide. But I'm finding that I can fit into narrow boots pretty easy by buying a little big and stretching them. First thing I would do is listen to what everybody here has to say. I would go to REI and check out their boots. Allot of the manufactures of olds school boots are making boots to this day. You will find that most dislike Gore-tex in boots. I hate it and will never buy another pair of boots with Gore-tex. They do make ok motorcycle boots as the wind blows on them at high speeds so they don't get quite as hot. What size feet do you have including width. Are your feet the same size. Any wired protrusions or conjoined parts sticking out of your feet making it hard to fit shoes or boot in the past? If your willing to wait a bit you will find cheaper prices in the middle of winter when very few buy outdoor gear. but there pretty cheap now as well. If your wiling to wait you will also find some great prices on new school boots. Sometimes people get new boots and jsut sell them for whatever reason. Allot of the people here can tell you where to get better prices on new school boots as well. Utmost enjoy buying your new boots, it will make it a much more pleasant experience.

Great info. I am in need of boots. The military ones I are great for yard work and that's about it. I will need to get fitted I think. I started out in a narrow boot back in 2000. As the years progressed I found myself going to a wide in the military style. I know those are cut different from the civilian counter part so I can't use my size as a comparison. I started in a 7/12 2000, and ended up in a 8W 2009 when I got out. I wear a 10-10 1/2 depending on the shoe maker. So are you can see size will not work :) My foot are fairly "normal" I would think My left is slightly bigger then my right. As my left eye has better vision per say then my right. Yet I am right handed lol. So I will have to go into REI and have them fit me. I would assume I should try the boot on with a thick wool sock? I normal rucked/hiked again in the military boots with, get ready to laugh. Women's nylons. Lots of foot powder, some duct tape and I was good to go for 25 mile hikes. But yea.. These will get some miles on them over most terrains...

If you are going to go in and try some boots on take whatever socks(w/liners if ya use them)you plan on using on the trail as well as aftermarket insoles you plan on using(if you do) with you and use both when trying the footwear on. Stock insoles are ok but you will get better comfort out of a set of Montrails, Superfeet, Sole, etc insoles.

Also try the boots on towards the evening. As you are on your feet throughout the course of the day your feet will swell. This will give ya the best fit to compensate for your feet swelling while on trail.

All of the above factors will dramatically alter the fit of a boot ya thought fit in the store to the point that when you are out on the trail your feet will basically become ground beef.

If you are going to go in and try some boots on take whatever socks(w/liners if ya use them)you plan on using on the trail as well as aftermarket insoles you plan on using(if you do) with you and use both when trying the footwear on. Stock insoles are ok but you will get better comfort out of a set of Montrails, Superfeet, Sole, etc insoles.

Also try the boots on towards the evening. As you are on your feet throughout the course of the day your feet will swell. This will give ya the best fit to compensate for your feet swelling while on trail.

All of the above factors will dramatically alter the fit of a boot ya thought fit in the store to the point that when you are out on the trail your feet will basically become ground beef.

Happy hiking-Rick

Sweet! I wasn't aware of that :D I am used to just pounding the ground in some boots lol. I am going to look at those insoles and bring in some wool socks.. I will have those as a back up and use them on the trail.

I think your "blanket" opinionated statement "I see that you are ex military, and they of course solve every problem this way. But you are a civilian now, got to behave civil sometime you know". It's the way of the military to solve issues with guns.(not always) I am sorry you do not have the option to carry. That is a choice that was taken away from you as a citizen. For you to sit here and make that statement sickens me. "Behave civil" What have I done to prove other wise? If the state of CO deemed me to be unfit to carry a personally own fire arm, then I would not have a concealed carry license. It sounds to me you think I am some type of barbarian cause I carry?

I am average. Not some huge guy nor a small one. Just average. The pens are a great idea, and I think I will add those to the list ty! I was also looking at bear spray as well. Changing those items out once a year is a great idea also! Keep em fresh.

Thanks for the great ideas!

Jason

First I was astonished at your reply, then I looked up in the dictionary and must regret that the word "civil" in english had more meanings than just nonmilitary. I regret that and can assure you that no other meaning than just "behave like a normal nonmilitary" was intended.

But you omitted the main point in my post. I assumed that you were a quite normal person and my point was that if the normal person in CO may do without the gun on a hike, so could you. If you take the gun on the hikes OK for me, but then it is you that has proven to be off the normal average hiker. We were discussing the ten essentials, and argument like "just in case" is not a good one. There are so many things that could be useful, and using the just in case argument would lead to an enourmous pack.

No dont be sorry for me. I could easily get a firearm legally too, and btw I have read that there are more firearms in Norway per person than in US. The vast majority is of course for hunting small and large game. But as I do not hunt I do not need the extra weight of a gun.

There is a such thing as being over prepared. Huh? The Rockies can have volatile weather, but so can the Cascades, Sierras, and White Mountains, so a bunch of us on Trailspace are familiar with mountains that have sudden swings in the weather. The only open bivouac I ever did was a few hundred feet below the Continental Divide, when a tempest suddenly rose out of a cloudless sky while I doing a solo day ski in mid February, between Winter Park and Eldora. My pack was about the size of yours, and contained a kit sufficient to ride out the storm, despite no tent or sleeping bag (tree wells convert to snow caves in a pinch). All of my kit was considered lightweight (not ultra light, I was never an ultra light guy), yet still weighed close to 20 pounds, and filled the pack to capacity. I was in my mid 20s and in far better shape than most people; I was training in preparation for some 6000M+ high altitude mountaineering projects that were in my near future, and was an active Category 1 bicyclist. Despite my conditioning, I was glad I did not have a heavier day pack filled with some of the other heavy items you list, because being prepared in this case meant being able to get my butt off the hill quickly, when the opportunity came, and the additional 8 pounds of kit you carry would have affected my performance. And I am absolutely sure, given your body mass and height, that you would have faired no better, regardless of your conditioning. In any case what I am attempting to convey is there is more to preparation than a kit full of stuff, and in fact too much stuff can be just as much a liability as the lack thereof. As for being prepared, do consider keeping a warm sleeping bag, and some snacks in your truck during the snow season, just in case weather strands you on the highway.

While I made light of the essential items list, I was serious when I stated if one brings things like guns, they have some very specific scenarios in mind, yet if one prepares for scenarios unlikely as getting pulled into gun play, then there are loads of other scenarios one might consider, if for no other reason they are more likely; like carrying an epipen for the hapless suffering anaphylactic shock; a fire extinguisher to aid the commuter with an engine fire; a camera and note pad (useful in many emergencies); duct tape; bailing wire; pry bar, etc. Someone commented on signal flares while another disqualified that item for the fire hazard. On wilderness solos I take a couple of smoke flares; they are much more visible, last longer, and are a minimal fire hazard.

While all this advice by all the experts can be useful, some is amazingly dubious. In California they advise we possess earthquake kits that can tide one over for 72 hours. The core items are food, water, and some tarps for shelter. The problem: this is woefully inadequate; just look at how long it took authorities to respond in New Orleans, Japan, Haiti, and the Indian Ocean basin when they all endured their disasters. If you wait to be rescued, you could be waiting far longer than three days. So rather than the typical contents, my kit contains good walking shoes, sun screen, mountain bikes, only a couple gallons of water, water sterilization pills, phone numbers, money and a credit card, all so my family can get the heck out of Dodge to a distant, relatively unaffected city. (Again note, light equates to fast flight.) My earthquake kit also contains two 8 ton hydraulic jacks to assist rescue extrications of my neighbors. In any case you can’t prepare for every scenario, gear wise, as the above examples make clear

..I never intend to shoot anything. It's there in case of an emergency, simple as that…

As far as the specific comments about including a CC in your daily tote, what is it you anticipate that requires deadly force as an appropriate response? Keep in mind the police resolve most conflicts by talk, escalate to pepper spray if that fails, and then guns only as a last resort. In any case a holstered gun is only effective if you can anticipate trouble, and get the jump; otherwise the bad guys (or bears) have initial control of the situation and already have their guns (or claws) on you before you can respond. And if they don’t have guns, pepper spray should be adequate. BTW at 5’11” and your weight, you are certainly on the big side, and shouldn’t need a gun as an equalizer. I am your height. When I was your age I weighted 165, not 215, and was confident very few individuals could pose a problem for me. I know each generation is larger than the previous, but come on! The average healthy weight @ 5'11" did go up by fifty pounds.

About that heavy duty pack… I have an Outdoor Products day pack I purchased from Gemco, a 1970s forerunner to Sam’s Club. It was cheap - would sell for about $40 today - and constructed from materials typical of most day packs, the only notable feature being a leather bottom. It is still in use and was my daily carry for three decades until 2002, when working from home no longer required a commute. I have carried sixty pound rocks in it for miles (don’t ask, it was a bet). This pack certainly has seen more abuse than most any other day pack will ever see. Trust me, it would suit your needs just fine, as will any decent quality pack. Ah, but in your case will ANY pack be worthy of as a daily carry for life? The problem with stuff that lasts a life time is age degrades its beauty. My pack still hauls ass, but it looks like crap, with all the stains and ground in dirt. No amount of cleaning will restore its beauty. I can’t help but detect a certain nod to style in your gear choices; something tells me the patina of age will compel you to retire any pack long before it is physically worn out. So even if you are skeptical of the recommendations that standard duty equipment is durable enough, consider you may not want that pack as an urban carry when it starts looking its age.

..Didn't realize I would get such a facetious reply…

You asked, so we gave you our comments. Mine happen to be a little salty, crispy fried on the edges. Gotta have fun. And unless you can inspire more silliness from me, Jason, I think I have bored everyone sufficiently at this point with my ramblings.

I think your "blanket" opinionated statement "I see that you are ex military, and they of course solve every problem this way. But you are a civilian now, got to behave civil sometime you know". It's the way of the military to solve issues with guns.(not always) I am sorry you do not have the option to carry. That is a choice that was taken away from you as a citizen. For you to sit here and make that statement sickens me. "Behave civil" What have I done to prove other wise? If the state of CO deemed me to be unfit to carry a personally own fire arm, then I would not have a concealed carry license. It sounds to me you think I am some type of barbarian cause I carry?

I am average. Not some huge guy nor a small one. Just average. The pens are a great idea, and I think I will add those to the list ty! I was also looking at bear spray as well. Changing those items out once a year is a great idea also! Keep em fresh.

Thanks for the great ideas!

Jason

First I was astonished at your reply, then I looked up in the dictionary and must regret that the word "civil" in english had more meanings than just nonmilitary. I regret that and can assure you that no other meaning than just "behave like a normal nonmilitary" was intended.

But you omitted the main point in my post. I assumed that you were a quite normal person and my point was that if the normal person in CO may do without the gun on a hike, so could you. If you take the gun on the hikes OK for me, but then it is you that has proven to be off the normal average hiker. We were discussing the ten essentials, and argument like "just in case" is not a good one. There are so many things that could be useful, and using the just in case argument would lead to an enourmous pack.

No dont be sorry for me. I could easily get a firearm legally too, and btw I have read that there are more firearms in Norway per person than in US. The vast majority is of course for hunting small and large game. But as I do not hunt I do not need the extra weight of a gun.

Simple mistake on both our parts. I am not the average hiker if you have not noticed from a few of my postings and some of the gear I chose ;)

There is a such thing as being over prepared. Huh? The Rockies can have volatile weather, but so can the Cascades, Sierras, and White Mountains, so a bunch of us on Trailspace are familiar with mountains that have sudden swings in the weather. The only open bivouac I ever did was a few hundred feet below the Continental Divide, when a tempest suddenly rose out of a cloudless sky while I doing a solo day ski in mid February, between Winter Park and Eldora. My pack was about the size of yours, and contained a kit sufficient to ride out the storm, despite no tent or sleeping bag (tree wells convert to snow caves in a pinch). All of my kit was considered lightweight (not ultra light, I was never an ultra light guy), yet still weighed close to 20 pounds, and filled the pack to capacity. I was in my mid 20s and in far better shape than most people; I was training in preparation for some 6000M+ high altitude mountaineering projects that were in my near future, and was an active Category 1 bicyclist. Despite my conditioning, I was glad I did not have a heavier day pack filled with some of the other heavy items you list, because being prepared in this case meant being able to get my butt off the hill quickly, when the opportunity came, and the additional 8 pounds of kit you carry would have affected my performance. And I am absolutely sure, given your body mass and height, that you would have faired no better, regardless of your conditioning. In any case what I am attempting to convey is there is more to preparation than a kit full of stuff, and in fact too much stuff can be just as much a liability as the lack thereof. As for being prepared, do consider keeping a warm sleeping bag, and some snacks in your truck during the snow season, just in case weather strands you on the highway.

While I made light of the essential items list, I was serious when I stated if one brings things like guns, they have some very specific scenarios in mind, yet if one prepares for scenarios unlikely as getting pulled into gun play, then there are loads of other scenarios one might consider, if for no other reason they are more likely; like carrying an epipen for the hapless suffering anaphylactic shock; a fire extinguisher to aid the commuter with an engine fire; a camera and note pad (useful in many emergencies); duct tape; bailing wire; pry bar, etc. Someone commented on signal flares while another disqualified that item for the fire hazard. On wilderness solos I take a couple of smoke flares; they are much more visible, last longer, and are a minimal fire hazard.

While all this advice by all the experts can be useful, some is amazingly dubious. In California they advise we possess earthquake kits that can tide one over for 72 hours. The core items are food, water, and some tarps for shelter. The problem: this is woefully inadequate; just look at how long it took authorities to respond in New Orleans, Japan, Haiti, and the Indian Ocean basin when they all endured their disasters. If you wait to be rescued, you could be waiting far longer than three days. So rather than the typical contents, my kit contains good walking shoes, sun screen, mountain bikes, only a couple gallons of water, water sterilization pills, phone numbers, money and a credit card, all so my family can get the heck out of Dodge to a distant, relatively unaffected city. (Again note, light equates to fast flight.) My earthquake kit also contains two 8 ton hydraulic jacks to assist rescue extrications of my neighbors. In any case you can’t prepare for every scenario, gear wise, as the above examples make clear

..I never intend to shoot anything. It's there in case of an emergency, simple as that…

As far as the specific comments about including a CC in your daily tote, what is it you anticipate that requires deadly force as an appropriate response? Keep in mind the police resolve most conflicts by talk, escalate to pepper spray if that fails, and then guns only as a last resort. In any case a holstered gun is only effective if you can anticipate trouble, and get the jump; otherwise the bad guys (or bears) have initial control of the situation and already have their guns (or claws) on you before you can respond. And if they don’t have guns, pepper spray should be adequate. BTW at 5’11” and your weight, you are certainly on the big side, and shouldn’t need a gun as an equalizer. I am your height. When I was your age I weighted 165, not 215, and was confident very few individuals could pose a problem for me. I know each generation is larger than the previous, but come on! The average healthy weight @ 5'11" did go up by fifty pounds.

About that heavy duty pack… I have an Outdoor Products day pack I purchased from Gemco, a 1970s forerunner to Sam’s Club. It was cheap - would sell for about $40 today - and constructed from materials typical of most day packs, the only notable feature being a leather bottom. It is still in use and was my daily carry for three decades until 2002, when working from home no longer required a commute. I have carried sixty pound rocks in it for miles (don’t ask, it was a bet). This pack certainly has seen more abuse than most any other day pack will ever see. Trust me, it would suit your needs just fine, as will any decent quality pack. Ah, but in your case will ANY pack be worthy of as a daily carry for life? The problem with stuff that lasts a life time is age degrades its beauty. My pack still hauls ass, but it looks like crap, with all the stains and ground in dirt. No amount of cleaning will restore its beauty. I can’t help but detect a certain nod to style in your gear choices; something tells me the patina of age will compel you to retire any pack long before it is physically worn out. So even if you are skeptical of the recommendations that standard duty equipment is durable enough, consider you may not want that pack as an urban carry when it starts looking its age.

..Didn't realize I would get such a facetious reply…

You asked, so we gave you our comments. Mine happen to be a little salty, crispy fried on the edges. Gotta have fun. And unless you can inspire more silliness from me, Jason, I think I have bored everyone sufficiently at this point with my ramblings.

Ed

"yet still weighed close to 20 pounds" great point. In total without my boots water and food. I am at 12 pounds. So add those few items in and I think I should be right around 20 pounds. Worn properly it can be easily hiked with all day.

On guns again. I thought we left that can of beans back a block ago. I don't want to stir them but..... Since u opened them i'll take a taste. Going to start off by saying its YOUR opinion. On scenarios that to which involve guns. There are to many to list on here before people would stop reading. I am sure you have heard of stories of people being attacked my bears, mountain lions, etc?? Well it some cases they got lucky cause they had a stick, or some people around to throw rocks, yell and scream etc.. What if you fall, lose your stick, and can't reach flare or bear spray. Only thing that stayed in place was your firearm.. What are you going to to? Obviously make noise if it was a cat. Play dead to best of your ability with a bear. Lets just hope its not a mom with cubs.. Outcome could be a whole lot different. The main 2 things that stay on my body at all times when I have hiked without my current pack are my fire steel, and my CC. That list is being updated to a few more items.

"As far as the specific comments about including a CC in your daily tote, what is it you anticipate that requires deadly force as an appropriate response?" Not sure where you live, and don't really care. I try to stay current on violent news around my area. Although the area I live is mainly really calm, we do have a few "kids" that think they are gangsters and with that mind set comes the back lash of stuff with it. I WILL defend my family, and neighbors if need be against the "stupid". Reason I say stupid is because that's just what they are.

"Keep in mind the police resolve most conflicts by talk, escalate to pepper spray if that fails, and then guns only as a last resort." I wish that was the case most of the time. I am glad you have confidence in your local law enforcement. Do to tax cuts where I live we have less and less on the streets. I am sure you are not aware that about 8 thousand Soldiers and family's moved to my area. I hope that you are familiar with Ft.Hood TX? Pretty violet area. That's what moved to my area. Bank robberies are on the rise, stabbings, had a lady pull a guy with a tow truck and kill the tow truck driver. Just to name a few.

About the pack comment. I did do tons of research as I do with 98% of things I buy today. I try to make my dollar go as far as it can.

I can't hold everyone to the same standard as you when it comes to replies. You have brought a few things to the the table to note. But it sounds to me like since I CC, you won't just leave a constructive reply without the blow back. I didn't give you grief because you choose to use a external frame pack, or that you look old in your pic. I didn't do any of that. I joined this site because every posting and reply I saw was super helpful and very constructive. That being said, if you don't feel you can help because I chose to CC then please find another thread.

"I can’t help but detect a certain nod to style in your gear choices" That clearly states to me you don't or won't support what I carry. Gear, packs etc.. Happy hiking to you my friend.

Just ran across this site last night. Decided to register as I saw a broad range of GREAT replies to several threads on here. Everyone seems so willing to help and share knowledge. So on to my questions :)

I looked at like 20-30 different packs and found this one to best fit my needs. This will be a everyday carry. I plan on using this for my day hike pack as well. A few items that will be in this pack at all times are:

Surefire flash light with a 160 lumens bulb with extra batteries for it.

2-5 chem lights for low light. Will be put on my pack so I can be seen

Glock 27 with extra ammo (open carry is legal in CO, springs and most areas) I do have my CCWP

Samsung Epic 4G touch (sprint)

1L platypus folding bottle

Fleece cap

Oakley FastJacket XL

This WILL be a revolving list and change as weather changes. This is just a general carry.. The pack is 1800ci so it has some room.

I also want to ask if anyone has had experience with this pack or knows someone that has. What there impression and what they think of it.

I need suggestions on a boot that I can change into for trail and possible hard rock hiking situations. We have lots of spots where the ground changes super fast.

Thanks

Jason

Also just some general advice on what to carry in addition to or a replacement for what I currently have.

Dang, I love beating a dead horse once in a while, but it seems here that were stompin all over the dead ponies and making a stinky mess.

Lets take a look at what Jason asked in his original posting. He told us he bought a pack and wondered if we had any experiance with said pack. He was/is not looking for a pack or to buy a pack.

He stated that he was carring a gun in the back country and not if we thought he should be. Other than listing it as a seperate item of interest he listed it as part of his basic carry. As I read his post if find that he is not asking us to change his mind on if he carries a firearm or what we even think about it. It is just one more piece of gear in his everyday carry.

He listed what he was he was going to carry gear wise and that it would be relvolving based on conditions and if we had any more or other suggestions on what he might add to what he was carring.

Lets face it on this one fact and maybe drop it and leave it for another thread that pertains to the carring of firearms in the back country. Fact: many of use have the right(s) to carry a fire arm both in public and in the back country. It's that simple. If each of use don't like it we can buy a piece of property to hike on alone where there are no others that can assert there right under the constitution to carry fire arms. Really it's that simple.

Now, I can't believe I'm the one to say this.............sigh............more sighing.......back on topic,

Jason, What I would recommnd is for you to go to REI/REI like store and try on any and all the boots in the price range that you are looking at. I would take four pairs of wool socks with you. Heavy, med, and a 2 lite pair with yoiu if you have them. I did note whne I was at REI that the had a box of many socks alreay there that you can use to try on boots as well. With all my boots I have to mix and match socks. I usually use a med and lite pair though sometimes I use a heavy and med pair, and somtimes I use two lite pair. Very rairly do I use a heavy and lite pair, but I do. It just depends on the boots. Your sock selection may change as the boots break in as well. I find that when hiking I personally like the two pair system. You should try different boots in differents sizes with different combos of socks. I find the pure wool or 80% wool sock work best. I like the 80% wool sock (also being the thinner) on the inside/against the foot with the thicker 100% wool sock on the outside. Try on as many boots as you can stand. Also find out who works in the shoe/boot department. Arrange to get the boot fitter with the most experiance. Quite often you will get a guy/gal that's been dealing with boots sice the 70's and will have just as much insite on older leather boots as the new boots. If they do have a person that works there but is not presant that day, find out when he/she will be there and come back that day. If they do have such a person in their employment then he/she may well be able to direct you to what old school boots might fit your style of foot along with a vast knowlege of the array of newer boots. When you are done, walk away with out buying anything and think about what boots you liked and what your fitter had to say. Let him/her know that you are not buying today and it will go so much better as they will not be trying to make a quick sale and move on. Explain to him/her that you will be there for a few hours trying on many,many pairs of boots in differt sizes. When you find a boot that you think fits try the size above and the size below in the same boots with differnt sock combos, you might be suprised at what you find. Bring your pack loaded with you to see how the boots feel with the pack on. Granted the boots will not be broken in but if they feel bad right of the bat I would stay away form those boots. 20-30 lbs will make a huge difference even when jsut standing there. You may have to go back a few times to make sure that what ever boots yoiu pick are really the boots you want. Try not to buy on your first trip out. When your done, again walk away and talk to use here at Trailsapce as well as start lookiong on Ebay (once in a while you can ifnd a good deal on boots on Craigslist as well) to see what is avaliable in the boots you like. Again if you want to look at old school leather boots there are many here who have much experiance. I have some boot knowledge but there are some here who have a lot of time, effort, and experiances involving boots. It will mearly come down to what you want, can afford, and like in a boot(s). Remeber also that just because its a good hiking boot it may be to lite for a backpacking boot, along with the flip side, just because it's a great backpaking boot does not mean it will be a great hiking boot as it may be to stiff and heavy for you without a pack. I myself would not touch any of the lower to med end of the boots range, but that is my opinion. I myself would only look at the upper end off the boot range, though with that beings said I know that I can get 4-7 pairs of quality leather boots of yesteryear for the price of one pair of upper end newer hiking boots.

"If you are going to go in and try some boots on take whatever socks(w/liners if ya use them)you plan on using on the trail as well as aftermarket insoles you plan on using(if you do) with you and use both when trying the footwear on. Stock insoles are ok but you will get better comfort out of a set of Montrails, Superfeet, Sole, etc insoles.

Also try the boots on towards the evening. As you are on your feet throughout the course of the day your feet will swell. This will give ya the best fit to compensate for your feet swelling while on trail.

All of the above factors will dramatically alter the fit of a boot ya thought fit in the store to the point that when you are out on the trail your feet will basically become ground beef.

Happy hiking-Rick"

I found this to be very sound advice.

Please let us know about your boot experiance, as I for one, am in the Boot Rut at the moment and have much interest in what all have to say regarding the topic of boots.

Oh yea forgot to mention. A must carry for me, especially when dealing with new boots is mole skin. They don't give that stuff away and the stro and iquite expensive at the strore. I just bought 2 roles of X-Heavy Moleskin 2" X 5 yds MS2X5 extra mole skin for $12.00+$3.50 shipping. Way cheaper than the store. If you have just a little in your pack you may save your feet and/or it's a great gift to those on the side of the trail that are having boot rubbing/chaffing/blister troubles. Here is the link on Ebay of the stuff I got. I have not tried it yet.

Just ran across this site last night. Decided to register as I saw a broad range of GREAT replies to several threads on here. Everyone seems so willing to help and share knowledge. So on to my questions :)

I looked at like 20-30 different packs and found this one to best fit my needs. This will be a everyday carry. I plan on using this for my day hike pack as well. A few items that will be in this pack at all times are:

Surefire flash light with a 160 lumens bulb with extra batteries for it.

2-5 chem lights for low light. Will be put on my pack so I can be seen

Glock 27 with extra ammo (open carry is legal in CO, springs and most areas) I do have my CCWP

Samsung Epic 4G touch (sprint)

1L platypus folding bottle

Fleece cap

Oakley FastJacket XL

This WILL be a revolving list and change as weather changes. This is just a general carry.. The pack is 1800ci so it has some room.

I also want to ask if anyone has had experience with this pack or knows someone that has. What there impression and what they think of it.

I need suggestions on a boot that I can change into for trail and possible hard rock hiking situations. We have lots of spots where the ground changes super fast.

Thanks

Jason

Also just some general advice on what to carry in addition to or a replacement for what I currently have.

Dang, I love beating a dead horse once in a while, but it seems here that were stompin all over the dead ponies and making a stinky mess.

Lets take a look at what Jason asked in his original posting. He told us he bought a pack and wondered if we had any experiance with said pack. He was/is not looking for a pack or to buy a pack.

He stated that he was carring a gun in the back country and not if we thought he should be. Other than listing it as a seperate item of interest he listed it as part of his basic carry. As I read his post if find that he is not asking us to change his mind on if he carries a firearm or what we even think about it. It is just one more piece of gear in his everyday carry.

He listed what he was he was going to carry gear wise and that it would be relvolving based on conditions and if we had any more or other suggestions on what he might add to what he was carring.

Lets face it on this one fact and maybe drop it and leave it for another thread that pertains to the carring of firearms in the back country. Fact: many of use have the right(s) to carry a fire arm both in public and in the back country. It's that simple. If each of use don't like it we can buy a piece of property to hike on alone where there are no others that can assert there right under the constitution to carry fire arms. Really it's that simple.

Now, I can't believe I'm the one to say this.............sigh............more sighing.......back on topic,

^@@ Ty for that!

Jason, What I would recommnd is for you to go to REI/REI like store and try on any and all the boots in the price range that you are looking at. I would take four pairs of wool socks with you. Heavy, med, and a 2 lite pair with yoiu if you have them. I did note whne I was at REI that the had a box of many socks alreay there that you can use to try on boots as well. With all my boots I have to mix and match socks. I usually use a med and lite pair though sometimes I use a heavy and med pair, and somtimes I use two lite pair. Very rairly do I use a heavy and lite pair, but I do. It just depends on the boots. Your sock selection may change as the boots break in as well. I find that when hiking I personally like the two pair system. You should try different boots in differents sizes with different combos of socks. I find the pure wool or 80% wool sock work best. I like the 80% wool sock (also being the thinner) on the inside/against the foot with the thicker 100% wool sock on the outside. Try on as many boots as you can stand. Also find out who works in the shoe/boot department. Arrange to get the boot fitter with the most experiance. Quite often you will get a guy/gal that's been dealing with boots sice the 70's and will have just as much insite on older leather boots as the new boots. If they do have a person that works there but is not presant that day, find out when he/she will be there and come back that day. If they do have such a person in their employment then he/she may well be able to direct you to what old school boots might fit your style of foot along with a vast knowlege of the array of newer boots. When you are done, walk away with out buying anything and think about what boots you liked and what your fitter had to say. Let him/her know that you are not buying today and it will go so much better as they will not be trying to make a quick sale and move on. Explain to him/her that you will be there for a few hours trying on many,many pairs of boots in differt sizes. When you find a boot that you think fits try the size above and the size below in the same boots with differnt sock combos, you might be suprised at what you find. Bring your pack loaded with you to see how the boots feel with the pack on. Granted the boots will not be broken in but if they feel bad right of the bat I would stay away form those boots. 20-30 lbs will make a huge difference even when jsut standing there. You may have to go back a few times to make sure that what ever boots yoiu pick are really the boots you want. Try not to buy on your first trip out. When your done, again walk away and talk to use here at Trailsapce as well as start lookiong on Ebay (once in a while you can ifnd a good deal on boots on Craigslist as well) to see what is avaliable in the boots you like. Again if you want to look at old school leather boots there are many here who have much experiance. I have some boot knowledge but there are some here who have a lot of time, effort, and experiances involving boots. It will mearly come down to what you want, can afford, and like in a boot(s). Remeber also that just because its a good hiking boot it may be to lite for a backpacking boot, along with the flip side, just because it's a great backpaking boot does not mean it will be a great hiking boot as it may be to stiff and heavy for you without a pack. I myself would not touch any of the lower to med end of the boots range, but that is my opinion. I myself would only look at the upper end off the boot range, though with that beings said I know that I can get 4-7 pairs of quality leather boots of yesteryear for the price of one pair of upper end newer hiking boots.

"If you are going to go in and try some boots on take whatever socks(w/liners if ya use them)you plan on using on the trail as well as aftermarket insoles you plan on using(if you do) with you and use both when trying the footwear on. Stock insoles are ok but you will get better comfort out of a set of Montrails, Superfeet, Sole, etc insoles.

Also try the boots on towards the evening. As you are on your feet throughout the course of the day your feet will swell. This will give ya the best fit to compensate for your feet swelling while on trail.

All of the above factors will dramatically alter the fit of a boot ya thought fit in the store to the point that when you are out on the trail your feet will basically become ground beef.

Happy hiking-Rick"

I found this to be very sound advice.

Please let us know about your boot experiance, as I for one, am in the Boot Rut at the moment and have much interest in what all have to say regarding the topic of boots.

Back on topic :)

Rick and you both have solid advice on boots and additional gear to carry and or replace. Taking a few trips is a great idea. I have already tried on 2 pairs of I guess mid-high range. Both had gor-tex in them, with vribram soles. One was a little to norrow for my foot. This will have to be a trek without the wife lol.. I can already hear it (omg why is this taking so long, just get a damn pair already) lol. I have one med pair and a very thing pair of wool socks.. So I will need to get a thick pair. I do think insoles as Rick stated are a great way to go. Why not make them super cunfy while hiking/backpacking? I am going to try and grab everything that I can from what was suggested to me through the varies posts while I am at REI. Time to make a huge list and double check it. I can say this though. I have ONE, just one pair of military style boots that I can say that they are just a wow factor when wearing them. They are a jungle OD green style with some after market soles installed.

@ JasonSauce : Before making any decision on Gore-tex regarding boots, much has been written here at Trailspace. I would recommend doing a search on the suject by doing a search on "Gore-tex boots". I have owned two pair of boots with Gore-tex, both in the middle of the boot price range and will never, never buy any, ever agian. I hate them and they are terriable boots as far as I'm concerened, IMHO. I believe is not only is it unnecessary to use it in boots I feel its a hindrance, nuisance, and down right a mistake to use Gore-tex in boots for a number of important reasons, IMHO. As I said I have two pair and I will not use them for hiking, ever. I will only use them while on my motorcyle as they then do not get quite so hot when blowing in the wind, with that being said, I only use them on cool/cold days even then.

Military boots might just work for you. I use and buy military stuff all the time. It's tough, long lasting and made to take abuse, along with your tax dollars being spent to make really, really quality items. If the military's boots are made like the rest of the gear they use then they would be worth a look. Like buying used, buying military is not often thought of. I just picked up a brand new hooded full length zipper camo Gore-tex armed forces coat/jacket for $7 this summer. It was a score and along with my new $3 PVC rain pants I'm set for the rain for $10. They are not the litest pieces of gear but they work for me. Gore-tex belongs as outer shells in garmets, tents, sleeping bags rather than in shoes, IMHO. When the pants degrade enough I'll only have to ponie up another $3+/-.

@ JasonSauce : Before making any decision on Gore-tex regarding boots, much as been written here at Trailspace. I would recommend doing a search on the suject by doing a search on "Gore-tex boots". I have owned two pair and will never, never buy any agian. I hate them and they are terriable boots as far as I'm concerened, IMHO. I believe is not only is it unnecessary to use it in boots I feel its a hindrance, nuisance, and down right a mistake to use Gore-tex in boots for a number of important reasons, IMHO. As I said I have two pair and I will not use them for hiking, ever. I will only use them while on my motorcyle as they then do not get quite so hot when blowing in the wind, with that being said, I only use them on cool/cold days even then.

Military boots might just work for you. I use and buy military stuff all the time. It's tough, long lasting and made to take abuse, along with your tax dollars being spent to make really, really quality items. If the military's boots are made like the rest of the gear they use then they would be worth a look. Like buying used, buying military is not often thought of. I just picked up a brand new hooded full length zipper camo Gore-tex armed forces coat/jacket for $7 this summer. It was a score and along with my new $3 PVC rain pants I'm set for the rain for $10. They are not the litest pieces of gear but they work for me. Gore-tex belongs as outer shells in garmets, tents, sleeping bags rather than in shoes, IMHO.

I agree. I have never tried to hike, let alone use gortex as a "daily" wear boot. Only pair I do have is a Winter issue with a liner (gor-tex). Vibran soles seem to be the norm for the military style these days. Maybe that is saying something about that sole type (decent)? I mean the one pair I do have *could* work but I know there IS something out there that will better fit my needs (maybe). Just as you said, I need to sit down for a few hours or more with a resident expert in store. I know what works for me on the military side.. Civilian side I am in need of some education ;)

Regarding the Gortex boots. The only time I've heard of poeple not minding the use of gortex in boots is in the cold, cold winter. I've only heard 1-2 people that actully like the fact that their boots have Gore-tex in them. I hope other will weigh in on the subject. A boot with Gortex would be a very dedicated boot for me as I don't hike in the cold cold winter much. I love vibram soles. Almost all the old school leather boots used Vibram soles, I'm guessing 80-90%. The older Vibram soles are much more likely to silp on wet mossy rocks than the newer style of soles. I do not know much at all about the new boots, I know that some of the ones I've seen use Vibram soles but I'm sure that there are other sole manufactures now as well.

If you do not get the answers you want fron this thread and reading other threads on Trailspace and elswhere on the web I would start a brand new boot thread under gear selection that is just about boots and nothing else. As the "can o worms" has been opened on this thread, I think there may be alot of people who will not respond here that would on a pure boot thread.

I believe it is best utilized in a boot that is a combination of leather/synthetic. In this application Gore-tex breathes well.

On an FGL boot it has not worked well for me. The combination of a membrane and a full leather boot just does not breathe for me.

Notice I said "for me." Its about your feet not mine. I typically utilize a full leather boot with no membrane. Currently the Scarpa SL M3(which have Vibram M3 soles.) A boot like this with thick leather(2.8/2.9mm) will keep your feet just as dry as a boot with a membrane and I personally think it will out last a boot with a membrane as well(from prior experience.)

Another good point to the "no-membrane" theory is they dry alot quicker if you submerge them. I don't know if you have sank a boot with a membrane but the drying process can be somewhat extensive.

Like I said previously; if you get a full leather boot and maintain it by taking care of the leather etc it will be just as effective as gore-tex and it will breathe better. Just mho.

I treat my leather footwear with Obenauf's Heavy Duty LP. Best stuff I have used.

Now soles.

I would suggest contacting the boot manufacturer in regards to this. Even with Vibram soles they use different compounds for different applications.

Some boots utilize a harder compound. Now while this type of sole will last for a long time it can be a dangerous act when boulder hopping in a drizzle. Think walking on ice.

Then there is the flipside. Softer compounds grip great on wet rock etc but wear quickly which means you are either exploring your resole options or the purchase of a new pair more frequently.

I have a friend that just bought a pair of Asolo Fugitives. Well the sole is a harder wearing compound and he found out the hard way in a drizzle(face plant.)

Its basically a pick your poison scenario. I would strongly suggest contacting the manufacturers before purchase to find out what would best suit your needs.

Just for the record, Jason, my 20 pound day pack included all sorts of stuff (e.g. crampons, ice axe, shovel, ski binding repair stuff, cold weather apparel, shell garments) any experience winter trekker would list as essential, however, not on your list. I was merely pointing out some items you cite as must carry would add significantly to the weight of my pack, and that a 28 pound pack is 40% heavier and will have a significant impact on speed of travel.

The comments of mine which you take exception to, Jason, are based on statistics. I certainly have my biases about things like guns, but they are not the basis of my statements herein, regarding what one prepares for. There are oodles of mortal distress scenarios many times more probable than bears or thugs, yet they go completely under the radar, as far as the gear you have listed.

My comment on style was not intended to be a jab, Jason, and I apologize if it was taken thusly. Most people usually replace a soiled article rather than have it reflect upon the image they project in an urban setting. I only meant to imply you seem to take pride in yourself and would be as concerned about your appearance as most others in this context.

I have no doubts you do the homework, Jason, and base your decisions on what you think are the best solutions. But as stated, you are on a budget and probably have much to learn. I too have criteria, but likewise must respect the limitations imposed by my financial situation. Over the decades I have learned where I get the most value from dollars spent on camping equipment. I was hoping to share some of this experience. There are enough items in a kit that most of us cannot afford every piece of equipment to be the top shelf item. Furthermore when one balances the imperative for mission critical function against weight or economy, one begins to realize the difference between an item that must be mission critical, versus good enough to cover most situations. You talk about getting boots. I would argue for spending that $400 on boots, instead of a day pack, because it is no big deal to field repair a pack, but almost impossible to fix a broken boot. In fact even a poor fitting but otherwise intact boot is to be avoided at all costs. I hope this observation dispels the notion I have some agenda; I have always used a value proposition to drive my equipment choices, and it is this sentiment that is the basis of my responses.

My reply was not another soapbox speech about guns. Unfortunately everyone dwelling on my comments has let the whole 2ndAmendment debate obscure my message. If Jason had said he carries an emergency life vest (in case of flash floods) or a parachute whenever he files, I would question the basis for those choices too. It is a coincidence a gun is the topical item. It is not what is carried that I focus on; it is the odds of the scenarios arising that justifies its inclusion, versus other more probable and equally vital situations one could prepare for; that and the liabilities that go along with dealing with one more piece of equipment wherever you go. I stated nowhere you should not carry a gun; I only stated that the priority you place on such an item is at odds with the statistical probability of various risks and situations we are likely to encounter. Thus the basis of our differing opinions is perception and preoccupation with specific threats, not the reality that lies outside our doors, and definitely not anything related to gun ownership or cc.

As far as me commenting on your gear choices, Jason, Brian references some passages from your OP, suggesting I was out of line addressing the gun and pack. Perhaps I am; however, the line in that post which solicited my comments was the closing statement:

..Also just some general advice on what to carry in addition to or a replacement for what I currently have.

As I read this statement it is an open invitation to comment on the whole kit and caboodle, including items already procured. I made several suggestions; some were well received. I commented on alternatives to the pack and gun, but these were discounted as being personally critical. May I suggest the difference in these comments has more to do with the eyes reading them than the fingers that keyed them. I provided all comments, based on fifty years of experience of what works and what is mission critical, and my understanding of various statistical probabilities. And all of my comments were in the spirit of the above referenced statement. True, Jason, you didn’t comment on my choice of packs, but then I didn’t solicit anyone to comment on my pack; you did. If you have a problem with folks disagreeing with your choices, Jason, why post such an invite in the first place? I am often blunt and silly, but not a flamer. We obviously disagree, but take comments regarding gear choices personally. So I’ll tell you what: If you don’t give me grief for my old looks and know-it-all attitude, I will pass on commenting about over sensitivity and youthful ignorance:)

Just for the record, Jason, my 20 pound day pack included all sorts of stuff (e.g. crampons, ice axe, shovel, ski binding repair stuff, cold weather apparel, shell garments) any experience winter trekker would list as essential, however, not on your list. I was merely pointing out some items you cite as must carry would add significantly to the weight of my pack, and that a 28 pound pack is 40% heavier and will have a significant impact on speed of travel.

The comments of mine which you take exception to, Jason, are based on statistics. I certainly have my biases about things like guns, but they are not the basis of my statements herein, regarding what one prepares for. There are oodles of mortal distress scenarios many times more probable than bears or thugs, yet they go completely under the radar, as far as the gear you have listed.

My comment on style was not intended to be a jab, Jason, and I apologize if it was taken thusly. Most people usually replace a soiled article rather than have it reflect upon the image they project in an urban setting. I only meant to imply you seem to take pride in yourself and would be as concerned about your appearance as most others in this context.

I have no doubts you do the homework, Jason, and base your decisions on what you think are the best solutions. But as stated, you are on a budget and probably have much to learn. I too have criteria, but likewise must respect the limitations imposed by my financial situation. Over the decades I have learned where I get the most value from dollars spent on camping equipment. I was hoping to share some of this experience. There are enough items in a kit that most of us cannot afford every piece of equipment to be the top shelf item. Furthermore when one balances the imperative for mission critical function against weight or economy, one begins to realize the difference between an item that must be mission critical, versus good enough to cover most situations. You talk about getting boots. I would argue for spending that $400 on boots, instead of a day pack, because it is no big deal to field repair a pack, but almost impossible to fix a broken boot. In fact even a poor fitting but otherwise intact boot is to be avoided at all costs. I hope this observation dispels the notion I have some agenda; I have always used a value proposition to drive my equipment choices, and it is this sentiment that is the basis of my responses.

My reply was not another soapbox speech about guns. Unfortunately everyone dwelling on my comments has let the whole 2ndAmendment debate obscure my message. If Jason had said he carries an emergency life vest (in case of flash floods) or a parachute whenever he files, I would question the basis for those choices too. It is a coincidence a gun is the topical item. It is not what is carried that I focus on; it is the odds of the scenarios arising that justifies its inclusion, versus other more probable and equally vital situations one could prepare for; that and the liabilities that go along with dealing with one more piece of equipment wherever you go. I stated nowhere you should not carry a gun; I only stated that the priority you place on such an item is at odds with the statistical probability of various risks and situations we are likely to encounter. Thus the basis of our differing opinions is perception and preoccupation with specific threats, not the reality that lies outside our doors, and definitely not anything related to gun ownership or cc.

As far as me commenting on your gear choices, Jason, Brian references some passages from your OP, suggesting I was out of line addressing the gun and pack. Perhaps I am; however, the line in that post which solicited my comments was the closing statement:

..Also just some general advice on what to carry in addition to or a replacement for what I currently have.

As I read this statement it is an open invitation to comment on the whole kit and caboodle, including items already procured. I made several suggestions; some were well received. I commented on alternatives to the pack and gun, but these were discounted as being personally critical. May I suggest the difference in these comments has more to do with the eyes reading them than the fingers that keyed them. I provided all comments, based on fifty years of experience of what works and what is mission critical, and my understanding of various statistical probabilities. And all of my comments were in the spirit of the above referenced statement. True, Jason, you didn’t comment on my choice of packs, but then I didn’t solicit anyone to comment on my pack; you did. If you have a problem with folks disagreeing with your choices, Jason, why post such an invite in the first place? I am often blunt and silly, but not a flamer. We obviously disagree, but take comments regarding gear choices personally. So I’ll tell you what: If you don’t give me grief for my old looks and know-it-all attitude, I will pass on commenting about over sensitivity and youthful ignorance:)

Ed

Well said. I gave you credit where do once again. I asked for advice and received. You are correct on the pack and CC part. I should have said these items are staying so please don't comment. On another hand I did say I bought this pack and stated in the another post I felt it best suited my needs. What works for me, may not work for you. This is obvious. I to enjoy being funny but a few comments suggested other wise. Sorry but they did. I thought it was clear that the pack I linked was my pack of choice. I will in the future I will be VERY clear on what items I need help with, and what items I don't. Better yet I just won't include them, but yet talk about them if brought up. You are well spoken so I don't doubt your experience in anyway. I can only use my personal experience on what I know and what I have been trained to deal with in my own way. If a CC is one of them, then that's how it is. I agree there are some things I chose that can be nixt or replaced with lighter cheaper items. I have saved for alot of the things on my list that I posted, and some things were given to me through the appropriate military channels for training, and or deployments. I am budget concision, but I do think 98% of the time you get what you pay. (firm believer)

At the current time I am in no need of ski repair stuff. The snow hasn't hit yet. I also have done zero research on said stuff you are referring to. (ski binding repair stuff). I did make mention of ordering a eVent shell a few times. It may have been over looked on your part do the vast number of replies my thread has received. I also will be ordering a thick fleece to layer with that shell. Also made mention of said fleece :) It is not a style I seek when CC. Many people in CO for that fact OPEN carry which is legal in all counties but 1. I know I have much to learn as I have stated as well. My choices and decisions will change I am sure as I grow older. My preference would not be to carry a external frame pack as it is yours. I prefer internal. :) That's what makes us human. When it comes to day pack items I have survival in mind as well as usability, and some practicality.

I am not the type to just dig in on someone because of a gear choice.(not saying you did, so please don't take it that) I am firm believer that most people have a general idea of what they want, and what they are looking in each item they chose for a pack. I don't question why you carry ski repair stuff. Simple fact is, it may, and sounds like it has proven to very useful for you. If a CC is useful for me, then why debate or question its purpose in my items to carry? I could simple "why do you need ski repair stuff in fall"? I am not to familiar with your geographical surroundings, so I can't comment when, or, if it snows where you are located. I think one would question why you carry that in a desert. But that is besides the point.

" Likewise the special forces style day pack is way overkill. Your choice of day pack weighs almost as much as my expedition size Kelty external frame pack." You did in fact mention what pack you have ;) I have a a brain injury and memory failure which causes me to re read things several times.

"True, Jason, you didn’t comment on my choice of packs, but then I didn’t solicit anyone to comment on my pack; you did." Making mention would solicit IMO. As I "made mention" of the pack I linked to in the OP. I have made no intention on discrediting you with the many years you have under your belt.

If I have to get off of a mountain and I am able to walk. I WILL get off the mountain. If I have to ditch a free leathermen, or chuck some batteries I will. I know people have weight in mind when hiking. I hike alone (most days or evenings). Thus I must have some essentials on hand to make do if I get stuck. As said before this is an EDC pack. Thus will be in my truck, home, school, whatever. So having some of these items are required IMO. I was simply looking for mere suggestions on what could be a little better or what have you. You have given me some great ideas and suggestions and I did thank you for that. I over look things very easily.

I feel very strongly for keeping my pack. As stated in a previous post I got it on a great deal. It would take me 6 months to save for something like if I had to buy outright. I have been saving for a budget of about 500 USD for a pair or even 2 pairs of boots.

Well that about wraps it up I guess. I defiantly will not degrade you as a person or your gear. That is not me. I hope we can exchange hiking stories in the future!

I made no comment on the e-vent shell because I have no experience with that technology, and do not know anyone who owns an e-vent garment. So what do event owners think, comparing e-vent to gortex and other hard shells?

In my opinion fleece garments are more or less the same across brands. Some may have better workmanship, but I have found the fleece degrades through repeated washing quicker than the stitch work holding it together, leaving me to consider garment selection mainly driven by warmth rating and personal style preferences. I would recommend when acquiring these items that whatever shell garments you select that the insulating lining should be removable (if has such lining).

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I hope you don't have to jettison equipment to save your butt. Did that once, me leaving behind several thousand dollars worth of gear. (ouch!) There were five others in our group who also made a similar sacrifice. Littering the mountain with all this stuff felt almost as bad as the monetary loss. We informed local guides of our abandoned camps. suggesting it would be worth their effort to lay claim on our liberated property, weather permitting.

------------

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. The frustration in this case was it took a few posts for all the talking points to get completely fleshed out. But eventually all things were considered, any interpersonal wrinkles ironed out, and best of all with no flaming committed.

I hope none of us will even be in a situation where we end up having our opinions tested, regarding preparing for the unexpected. Jason's bear may end up a statistic, while mine perhaps suffering a more protracted fate, bored to death from me trying to get him to see things my way 8-)

I made no comment on the e-vent shell because I have no experience with that technology, and do not know anyone who owns an e-vent garment. So what do event owners think, comparing e-vent to gortex and other hard shells?

In my opinion fleece garments are more or less the same across brands. Some may have better workmanship, but I have found the fleece degrades through repeated washing quicker than the stitch work holding it together, leaving me to consider garment selection mainly driven by warmth rating and personal style preferences. I would recommend when acquiring these items that whatever shell garments you select that the insulating lining should be removable (if has such lining).

-------------

I hope you don't have to jettison equipment to save your butt. Did that once, me leaving behind several thousand dollars worth of gear. (ouch!) There were five others in our group who also made a similar sacrifice. Littering the mountain with all this stuff felt almost as bad as the monetary loss. We informed local guides of our abandoned camps. suggesting it would be worth their effort to lay claim on our liberated property, weather permitting.

------------

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. The frustration in this case was it took a few posts for all the talking points to get completely fleshed out. But eventually all things were considered, any interpersonal wrinkles ironed out, and best of all with no flaming committed.

I hope none of us will even be in a situation where we end up having our opinions tested, regarding preparing for the unexpected. Jason's bear may end up a statistic, while mine perhaps suffering a more protracted fate, bored to death from me trying to get him to see things my way 8-)

Ed

Well stated Ed. As far as fleece goes I have a MH Windstopper Tech jacket that I love. Pricey but the best fleece I have ever owned; and it has pit zips. I actually bought it large so I could layer under it. Awesome fleece.

I made no comment on the e-vent shell because I have no experience with that technology, and do not know anyone who owns an e-vent garment. So what do event owners think, comparing e-vent to gortex and other hard shells?

In my opinion fleece garments are more or less the same across brands. Some may have better workmanship, but I have found the fleece degrades through repeated washing quicker than the stitch work holding it together, leaving me to consider garment selection mainly driven by warmth rating and personal style preferences. I would recommend when acquiring these items that whatever shell garments you select that the insulating lining should be removable (if has such lining).

-------------

I hope you don't have to jettison equipment to save your butt. Did that once, me leaving behind several thousand dollars worth of gear. (ouch!) There were five others in our group who also made a similar sacrifice. Littering the mountain with all this stuff felt almost as bad as the monetary loss. We informed local guides of our abandoned camps. suggesting it would be worth their effort to lay claim on our liberated property, weather permitting.

------------

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. The frustration in this case was it took a few posts for all the talking points to get completely fleshed out. But eventually all things were considered, any interpersonal wrinkles ironed out, and best of all with no flaming committed.

Yea I didn't want to Troll or flame. Not why I joined. Not a kid also ;)

It can be easy to get sucked in, and flame, for some people. Other's have more discipline.

I hope none of us will even be in a situation where we end up having our opinions tested, regarding preparing for the unexpected. Jason's bear may end up a statistic, while mine perhaps suffering a more protracted fate, bored to death from me trying to get him to see things my way 8-)

Ed

I am not going to going and just shoot a bear ;) I am pretty sure the loud bang would scare him off. Least that are my hopes. But if for some reason ANY dangerous type animal is attacking me, I WILL defend myself.

eVent is supposed to really good.. From what research I have done. I definitely would rather keep my gear, but in the event I have to, I will.

I made no comment on the e-vent shell because I have no experience with that technology, and do not know anyone who owns an e-vent garment. So what do event owners think, comparing e-vent to gortex and other hard shells?

In my opinion fleece garments are more or less the same across brands. Some may have better workmanship, but I have found the fleece degrades through repeated washing quicker than the stitch work holding it together, leaving me to consider garment selection mainly driven by warmth rating and personal style preferences. I would recommend when acquiring these items that whatever shell garments you select that the insulating lining should be removable (if has such lining).

-------------

I hope you don't have to jettison equipment to save your butt. Did that once, me leaving behind several thousand dollars worth of gear. (ouch!) There were five others in our group who also made a similar sacrifice. Littering the mountain with all this stuff felt almost as bad as the monetary loss. We informed local guides of our abandoned camps. suggesting it would be worth their effort to lay claim on our liberated property, weather permitting.

------------

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. The frustration in this case was it took a few posts for all the talking points to get completely fleshed out. But eventually all things were considered, any interpersonal wrinkles ironed out, and best of all with no flaming committed.

I hope none of us will even be in a situation where we end up having our opinions tested, regarding preparing for the unexpected. Jason's bear may end up a statistic, while mine perhaps suffering a more protracted fate, bored to death from me trying to get him to see things my way 8-)

Ed

Well stated Ed. As far as fleece goes I have a MH Windstopper Tech jacket that I love. Pricey but the best fleece I have ever owned; and it has pit zips. I actually bought it large so I could layer under it. Awesome fleece.

I am going to go a little large with the shell as well. Want to put the fleece underneath it. I have been looking into a thin thermal type "ninja" garment. Going to be like a 3 layer system. Thin and light weight. T-shirt, gets cold, "ninja shirt". If it gets colder, well fleece, then shell. It has options. Ninja shirt and shell. T-shirt and fleece. :)

Oversize shell an excellent idea. Size intermediate layer to accommodate underlying layers as well. Insulation is based on trapped air; compressing inner layers compromises that effect. For example: I have a med and a large down sweater, one to fit over the other as layers are added. My shell fits like kid wearing daddy's clothes, but it works.

Oversize shell an excellent idea. Size intermediate layer to accommodate underlying layers as well. Insulation is based on trapped air; compressing inner layers compromises that effect. For example: I have a med and a large down sweater, one to fit over the other as layers are added. My shell fits like kid wearing daddy's clothes, but it works.

Ed

Great info! I will be getting an XXL shell I do believe. L or XL fleece, with a L or XL thermal (ninja) long sleeve shirt. Then just a regular type T-shirt. That would be a SHTF type layering system I think would keep me very warm if it had to.

On a side note. I am going to look at different attachments for my pack. One will be like a *cold weather*, summer, fall, spring etc. Just a thought atm so I can just attach and "go". I made a pocket on the side for a *dedicated* water pocket. Going to have water purification tabs, a pump type filtering system, my platypus 1L folding bottle.

I am late to this discussion, so won't add much (except for one topic). I am coming from the perspective (as you might guess from the OGBO = Old GreyBearded One) of a number of decades of wandering the world, living out of my backpack. To list a few locations, going from Upper Left to Lower Right on the map of North America, Alaska (Brooks Range, Alaska Range including Denali, Katmai, Chugach), BC Coast Range, Canadian and US Rockies (including Colorado and Sangre - that was a week ago, yet again), New England Whites and Greens, Adirondacks, Sierra Nevada, Smokies, Sierra Madre (Mexico), the major Mexican Volcanoes. Plus the Cordillera Blanca (Peru) and Sentinel Range (Antarctica), Alps (Europe), Snowies (Australia), Serengeti (Africa), bla, bla, bla .... Plus being born and bred in the Sonora Desert.

Since I mentioned Colorado, I would suggest the best shop you can go to is Neptune's in Boulder, not far from the CU campus. The folks there are extremely knowledgable and experienced in what you really need for your "day hikes" and longer in Colorado.There is (or used to be) another excellent shop in Boulder that was right across the street from CU. My son told me they moved elsewhere in Boulder a few years ago, though I don't know where. There is also an excellent shop in Ft Collins on the north side of the CSU campus and one in Estes Park. Unfortunately, I don't remember the names of these latter two shops.

You have gotten some good advice in the posts above (but, also some advice that, based on my experience, which has averaged something like 50-100 nights a year in the woods and hills, is less than useful - but I will refrain from offering my personal, heavily biased by experience, commentary). If you go to Neptune's, you will get the real deal on information relevant to your immediate venue. REI and EMS (both of which have shops along the Front Range) are ok, but be aware that an unfortunate number of the clerks in both REI and EMS lack real life experience.

One piece of advice you got above, I will strongly emphasize and expand on - your footgear is THE most important part of your kit. Nothing kills a trip (even a day hike) more completely than ill-fitting footgear. Get thee in haste to a real, experienced, trained boot fitter!! Did I say "trained and experienced"? Something implied, but not said above, is that boot makers (and footgear makers in general) make their foot gear to a particular "last" (this is the standard foot shaped model that is used to design the shoe, boot, trail runner, etc). I have found that certain brands fit me right out of the box, while other equally high quality boots are way off (Scarpa, Lowa, La Sportiva fit me great, Merrill not at all, though my son finds Merrills jsut fine). Someone said above that your feet are different shape from one another (true for everyone, sometimes differing by a full size or more, often differing in width, arch shape, and volume, even for people with "normal" feet). And, heed well the advice to go late in the day (since your feet swell during the day. A good boot fitter will measure not only the length and width of your feet (both of them!!!), but the volume as well. The boot fitter will also be able to make adjustments to compensate for the individual weirdities of your particular feet (to take an extreme, bunions). Neptune has very knowledgable boot fitters.

You also have to consider (and take with you) the whole footwear system - not only the outer shell, but the sock system (yes, system - for distance hiking, you should wear a thin, wicking liner sock plus a light to heavy, depending on the trail and weather, insulating sock) and footbed (the better bootmakers only put a temporary liner in the boot, since experienced outdoor types will use an after-market or custom footbed).

Note that I did not specify a particular type of boot. That will depend on what fits you and works for you on the particular trail you head out on. I often wear trail running shoes for day hikes where I am carrying a light load (20 pounds or less), or approach shoes (especially for when I will go off trail or will do some scrambling). For example, I used my trail runners on Elbert and approach shoes on the easy route up Long's (the climbing routes call for climbing shoes, of course). I used my Lowas (full grain leather, NO gtx or eVent liner) on the 6 day hike up Kilimanjaro. For the Alaska Range, Rainier, etc, I used my Scarpa Invernos (double plastic boots). In Antarctica, I used my La Sportiva Olympus Mons (triple plastic boots with built-in gaiters). When hiking in my growing-up stomping grounds in the Sonora Desert, I use a light-weight, high-top FGL plus a thick gaiter (there are rattlers out there, plus what is worse, cholla).

I won't comment on your initial list except to say that there are at least 5 items I would exchange for items more suitable, in my several decades of experience wandering the hills, for what you say is your intended hiking. Talk to the folks at Neptune's and listen very carefully with a very open mind to what they say. You should also talk to the NPS rangers at RMNP about what they recommend for gear, again with a very open mind.

Ed whome, you asked about eVent. I have several eVent garments - an Integral Designs belay jacket (intended for ice climbing), a shell and bibs from Wild Things, and a shell from Montane. They all breathe significantly better than the Gtx shells and bibs I have (mostly Marmot). I haven't needed to use the pit zips when carrying heavy loads up steep slopes with the Wild Things (the ID belay jacket and Montane shell do not have pit zips, but don't need them). In talking to the Patagonia folks at the OR Show in August, their new wpb developed in conjunction with Gore is supposed to be much improved in breathability. I haven't had a chance to try their shell or bibs (not officially on the market yet, I believe, but the only color is, shall we say, a bit on the loud side). As I said above, I would not get boots with either an eVent or Goretex liner.

I was wondering how well the water shedding surface feature performs when pack straps are compressing the fabric? Also how well do the water shedding feature hold up to wear, such as under shoulder straps when hauling a pack? What the life expectancy of an e-vent garment under such conditions, and how (or if) the garment's functional life can be extended by proper maintenance?

Since my various eVent garments continue to shed water and breathe just fine (after about 5 or 6 years in the case of the ID Belay Jacket and close to that for the Montane), I can't answer the life expectancy question - I haven't reached the end of life nor had to do anything more for maintenance than a once a year washing with Nikwax (in two cases, after a couple of month-long expeditions where I wore the shell and bib on a daily basis, albeit in very cold conditions). I have not yet had the DWR start wetting out on any of my eVent between washings, unlike all the Goretex garments (my now ancient TNF Kichatna shell is the worst, typically needing renewal of the DWR after only a week or so of wearing, which is not even half-way through my typical expeditions). As for the pack question, although in my avatar I am not wearing a shell, you can see the fairly typical expedition conditions for the pack and sled hauling. The gtx shells would typically start wetting out around the pack straps (shoulder and waist), though not leaking, after a week or two. YMMV, of course.

I should mention that Integral Designs was acquired by Rab a bit over a year ago, so the ID label has vanished. Two of my favorite ID products are gone (the Belay Jacket and the VBL/emergency bivy). I somehow lost the VBL/bivy either on last year's Antarctic trek or in Peru, but I did manage to snag one of the 5 or 6 remaining on the market as a replacement (a slightly different design from the original). At 5 ounces and stuffed to fist-sized, that had become one of my 10 essentials.

So is the "carry every day" sort of the man purse? :) If that is the case....carry some lip gloss in this "MURSE".

In all seriousness...you got some good suggestions here but I may have missed lip protecion in there. You need to have that every time on the trail, IMHO. I ahve the steripen and love having it in my bag. I have a small survival kit and a fist aid kit too, but I allways have extra blister stuff in my bag and I always have maps in there too for the two areas I may find myself going to on an everyday basis. If I suddenly want to hike after work I will find myself at Mt Charleston or Red Rock so those two maps are always in my pack and a compass in case phone/gps fail. I like to have some sun glasses tucked in, just in case the ones I bring on my nose break or fall off down a cliff.

Ah, yes. The "10 Essentials" or is it 14? This is possibly THE most misunderstood and misinterpreted mnemonic in the outdoors world. Originally the 10 Essentials list, based on earlier " always carry" lists was compiled by some of the Seattle Mountaineers and included in MFOTH (Mountaineering: Freedom Of The Hills), a great book to have around as a " bible" of the outdoors. A couple problems with the book and the 10 Essentials list, though. First is that it is slanted very much toward the Pacific Northwest. Second is that too many people tend to take the list too literally. The original intention of the list was that it was to be the foundation of your pack for any level of hiking/backpacking/climbing/etc. Many consider it to be a special bag, only to be opened in an emergency, that goes with you, to which you add everything needed for the trip. Of course this means that everything in the 10 Essentials bag is duplicated. And since the original list is PNW oriented, southwestern US people add lots of water, while still having the warm clothes to prevent hypothermia. Which is why some versions have 12 or 14 items.

The moral, of course, is that you have to tailor your foundation list to the territory. Or to quote the musical, "ya gotta know the territory!

Like Bill S. said, I'm kind of late to this party. I've just read through all the posts. I have to say, in some ways, you asked the wrong group of guys. Please don't misunderstand me. I've been on this site for a few years and get a lot out of it, although I don't post a lot. What I mean is, this is mostly a bunch of backpackers. Most of the answers you got made a lot of sense from a backpacking perspective. Even for dayhiking, most backpackers (me included) have a mindset about what to take.

But that wasn't exactly what you were talking about.

For EDC, I have a Maxpedition Jumbo Versipack. If I consider that at pounds per cubic inch, it's too damn heavy. From a backpacker's perspective, that is. If I consider it from a "tactical" perspective (I really dislike the way that word gets over-used, especially by equipment marketers, but I am positive you will know what I mean by it), it is perfect for my needs. I can carry the stuff I want on a daily basis. I can fit a lot of stuff that I might want for differing conditions. It is tough as a Russian dump truck, which is good because it takes some knocks. It is modular, so I can add or subtract pockets as needed. If I put up a list of what I usually carry, some or much of it would make no sense at all if I were thinking of it from a backpacking perspective, but all the sense in the world if you think of the demands that I actually meet on a daily basis.

Part of my load-out philosophy goes like this: You should see the trunk of my car.

The Versipack carries what I always need, and/or need to get back to my vehicle. Once there, I have food and water for a week, shelter, tools, ammo, a long arm or two (depending on the season), a Single Six (because a really good .22 handgun is like the Swiss Army Knife of weaponry,) ham radio gear, a good size first aid kit, and Lord knows what-all else.

Like you, I also have my CCW and carry on a daily basis. For woods bumming or longer backpacking trips, I have different outfits than the one I carry day in-day out. Most people would not bother with a sidearm for backpacking. I make some compromises in what I would prefer to carry, in order to go light, but I take something anyway because -- well, concealed carry is a lifestyle as much as it is a self-defense choice. Going into the woods doesn't really change my risk assessment much. The risk assessment goes like this: I will probably go the rest of my life without needing it; hope so anyway; don't plan to get caught without the option if it ever comes up. That doesn't have much to do with the likelihood of a run-in with predators, two- or four-legged, in the boonies or out. But this isn't an issue I would bring up here. It's not a firearms forum.

And, I think that gets at the heart of the issue. The questions you had would have received a very diifferent reception on the Survival forum over at arf.com. Not more informed, not better, just more to the point of what you are talking about. The responses you got here -- some of which were very much on target BTW -- were great responses for the kind of hiking/camping/trekking mindset that we here are usually all wrapped up in. Kind of like asking a nurse the sort of question you ought to ask a paramedic. She will give you a good, solid, professional, well-thought-out answer, but it will be very different and perhaps not as useful as what the "ambulance driver" (LOL) would give you.

That being said: water purification probably doesn't fit your general purpose. A Steri-pen seems like overkill to me. But it can't hurt to have some Micropur MP1 tablets. Light, small, what the hell. I carry one or two and doubt I will ever use them. In my EDC load-out, that is. On the trail, different story.

Bivy sack and one of those Mylar blankets: yes for the pack I take hunting, no for my EDC pack.

Leatherman: Yes for my hunting pack. For EDC, I belt-carry a SAK Champ. The only thing I ever miss is the larger pliers; the little bitty dudes on the SAK do come in handy sometimes, but usually when I want pliers, I want real pliers. Otherwise, the Champ is perfect, and fits better in my professional environment than the Wave I carry for Scout camping or hunting. Oh, and it has that magnifying glass, which gets used all the time, more than I need pliers anyway.

You have a lot of water capacity. For EDC, it seems like overkill. The Versipack has a pocket for a standard 1 liter bottle. I don't see needing more than that. If I'm going woodsbumming, I take my hunting daypack, which does have a camelback pocket. (Bianchi made it -- great piece of kit.)

Knives: One is none and two is one. Murphy's law, or Clint Smith's version of it anyway. I don't like the blades on the SAK and if I could modify it to remove them I happily would. Dead weight. I have a CRKT Delegate in my front pocket. It is a "gentleman's knife" which doesn't scare the ponies (like I said, I work in a professional environment -- Dr. Bruce, no joke, but LOL anyway) if I get it out to open a box or a letter or something. But there are times when only a real knife will do; one that can handle twisting, prying, batoning, etc. For that I carry a ZT 0301 in my back pocket -- the pocket with the bandanna, not the wallet, too bulky. The Griptilian is a fine knife, and if you are happy with the knives on the Wave -- much better than the ones on the SAK Champ IMO -- then your back-up knife is covered.

Other than that, I've got nothing to add to any of the other good advice you've received.

Yeah, The Complete Walker is a (several) great book (I have several editions and don't remember which is the latest version. However, it is not really the "bible" of the outdoors, due to its concentration on hiking, largely to the exclusion of climbing, skiing, and other outdoor activities. The OP is trekking, which is better covered in MFOTH. Colin wrote the "Encyclopedia Brittanica" of everything walking, with a marvelous narrative and philosophy that you read forever. You can now come to an end since he passed, but there is enough evolution in all the versions that one should read all the editions.

Unless you are a book hoarder like me, the latest revelation of MFOTH is enough (until the 9th edition comes out next year)

I am a civilian....but as a prosecutor, I am law enforcement. I carry. For my protection. Jason. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your service. It is that service that other people spend to state their opinions. Sometimes it is ironic that they use that freedom to minimize the importance of all our freedoms...including the 2nd amendment.

I like the fact that people carry more than what you might need for a day. All too often, you read about people out for the day who do not come back. Injury or getting lost. I venture many that come back had their GPS to get them out of a bind. But if you are going to end up over night for any reason, you need to have been prepared for that. I always carry med kit and emergency kit in case I am, for what ever reason, stranded. It is hot in the desert, but at night can get quite cold. Rain can come and if I don't have rain gear, that can be at the last uncomfortable and at the most preolematic. My father has always said to me "Hope for the best, but plan for the worst." I ahve never had to use the extra stuff I ahve brought...other than the first aid and blister supplies, but they are worth every ounce.

I always pack extra. I have all too many times encountered hikers on the trail that end up not having exactly what they need.

Last trip I was on I ran into a few gentlemen who were on an overnighter and staying at the the 1st shelter site from the sobo th. I was on my last stretch of my trip which I started at the nobo th.

I spoke with them the previous evening as I passed them on the trail at a vista. They told me they were staying at the shelter site and I told them I was headed that way and I would see them there.

Well, I was a little tuckered out and decided to hit the sack after I set camp. All of a sudden I heard a loud "woof" and the sky lit up like it was daylight. Apparently these guys were trying to light a campfire with fuel... alot of it. Luckily I was a good distance away from their camp lol. Last thing I want to do is burn my own tent up let alone someone else do it for me.

So the next moring I was up bright and early because I wanted to get a jump on the trail and get to Ohiopyle because I knew of a few ice cream shops that were awaiting my arrival. :)

One of the gentlemen strolled on over to me and was asking me if the pump broke during the evening. I told him from my experiences on the trail that it would surprise me more if it didn't. He put his head down a bit. I kinda got cued in to the fact that they were relying on the pumps for their only source of water. I then explained to him the meaning of the non-potable sign.

I will not see anyone w/o water on trail so I asked him if he wanted to hit the stream with my filter while I broke camp. Needless to say he happily accepted my offer and off to the stream he went.

Then there was a previous trip where I ran into a few kids who were covering(attempting) 40 miles in 8 hrs wearing nothing but tshirts, blue jeans, tennis shoes, and nothing else. I ended up hooking them up with a spare light, some first aid supplies, a Nalgene bottle, and Aquamira.

Granted some may say don't carry extra anything but I personally don't mind. Being prepared for the unprepared is never a bad thing. As long as they learn a valuable lesson from it of course.

At least not as far as I am concerned...

When getting my pack set-up for a trip I live by the logic "hope for the best and expect the worst and you will never be let down" or the "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it approach." Am I carrying more weight than I should? Maybe... then again maybe not.

Jason, Otto lives in Norwegian where people don't carry handguns, to ensure that colors his reaction. The majority of us don't either. We now have had discussions on guns here before, and so i sets that aside.

Your list looks a lot more like one someone within the military or perhaps a hunter would come up with, not just one the typical backpacker would carry for any day hike, to ensure that is the reason why a few of the reactions read how they do. You will not find so many people here investing $400 on the camo daypack that weighs in at almost 5 pounds either.

You've a number of what walkers and hikers make reference to because the "10 necessities" that has broadened towards the "14 necessities" on some lists. Make use of the search box within the upper right hands corner to locate articles and threads concerning the list. Compare it to yours.

For me personally, I'd possess a different pack (lighter), not have access to the gun or even the torch (headlamp rather and perhaps a really small Brought backup), no Leatherman or large knife (a Swiss Military Knife and ski binding repair tool basically have skis or snowshoes), food, tea or cacao mix, small prepare package with stove and fuel (canister, or maybe cold, liquid fuel), Bic or similar lighter together with a little sparker, extra clothes - rain gear, mitts, hat, insulation (lower or fleece jacket, insulated pants) if cold if snow on the floor - small shovel (Voile), BD Winter Bivy (very light cover, not insulated whatsoever), eyeglasses, small mediterranean package, Gps navigation, map and compass, no phone (usually no signal anyway), water (bottle usually), little bit of duct tape (wrapped around my bottle). That's about this. Clearly for individuals within the desert or perhaps a different season, another list.

Wow, I'm new to this forum but this is not what I thought it was about. If someone legally wants to carry a pistol in the woods they should. But let's not kid ourselves, it won't kill a bear just make it angry, the chance of hitting a mountain lion after the attack has begun is very slim. Handguns are designed to kill people,I'm not anti guns or civil rights but let's be realistic. I own guns and carry one regularly as I'm in a cash business. I don't carry a handgun when I hike. I carry a Henry collapsible survival .22 when going on longer more remote hikes. This is for plinking away at cans as much as anything,but it could be used for small game or to signal for help in a survival situation. I didn't think my first post would be about weapons. Anyway, a item I like to carry everytime I go hiking for one day or a month is a small pack of babywipes. Unlike most wipes they generally contain witch hazel which helps with everything from chafing to soothing a bug bite or any irritated skin. I guess that is my one little bit of advice as most of you have much more hiking experience.

Guns are not one of the things that are talked about very often but when and if we can keep it civil we do. It is my opinion that if we have rights we should, at our discretion be able to use said rights. It is true that a gun will not be a sure answer to a charging bear or a mountain lion. But I do know that a large caliber slug will even up things a bit and I for one hate getting caught with my pants down. I would myself like the option to at least thinking I have a fighting chance if I'm ever in the situation and I'm pretty sure my Leatherman tool won't cut the muster (let alone the mustard) as they say. I have no problem with people carrying a gun in the back country any more than I have a problem with a person carrying a gun in public if they are a responsible person and knows how to handle the weapon that they are in position of. I knew this guy once and they gave him a permit but he always carried so that people knew he was packing as if was part of who he was, he was constantly dropping the thing because of how he carried it. He was/is and idiot when it comes to carrying. But even idiots get permits. When and if I do carry I do my best to not let people know, unless it's pertainate for some reason. If I’m hiking/backpacking with someone I’d like to be informed as it can always be a game changer in how all respond to situations, but that is up to them just as they don‘t have to tell me if they have a cell phone or a gps in there pocket. But when I meet people on the trail it’s none of there business if I’m carrying just as it’s none of their business if I have a camping stove. I find that if one open carry’s people most often seem to change the way they respond to you esp. when they first meet you on the trail. When someone meets me on the trail they should think, huh, here comes another backpacker not, oh crap a guy with a gun. Just as you have your reasons to carry (plinking), others have their's (protection). I respect both sides of the coin with people who choose to not pack and people who chose to pack. If one decides to carry I'm 100% ok as long as they know what they are in possession of and what the consequences are and what their responsibilities are. I told this former friend that kept dropping his gun in the most awkward of situations that I could not hang with him if and when he was carrying, we ended up parting ways. I'm way more afraid of the guy talking on his cell phone, while eating a burger while he's driving a Mack truck than someone who has a gun. Of all the people I’ve know my whole life there have been two where it bothered me. As it seemed to be their right it was my right to remove myself from the situations and I did.. IMHO

I have read most reponses and i have never understood why it matters weither someone else carries a gun if the have thier cc. However i must say that your chioce of firearm isnt what i believe would be the best one. If your worried about bears and such then your glock will just make him mad and eat you, you need 357mag or 44mag. I agree that the extra mags are probably overkill because you wouldnt have time to reload during an attack and its alot of extra weight. the more you hike the more you will decide to cut down on you weight. The glock is a fine gun i have a 26 sub compact but they are very heavy for a backpack and are useful for selfdefense against poeple. i have never had my gun out but i do carry a smith and wesson 360 whitch is a 357mag revolver that weighs only 10.5 ounces its made from titanium. its an expensive gun and many on this site will say iys unnecessary and they would be correct because its never been out. i hike alone and and it helps make me feel safer. I also bought alot of the wrong gear when i first started(too heavy) but thats how we learn by spending too much money. now i have a closet full of backpacking gear that is really nice but too heavy and i bet most of the guys on here have bought the wrong stuff from time to time. When your walking 15-20 miles a day every pound counts . i carry

Naw -- get the Survival Straps....50% of the price goes to Wounded Warrior Project. :)

This is better.

A question, How much of the sale actually gets donated ?

I know you write 50%, but is fully 50% I have a concern as some charities put, for this example, 50% in that direction but need to take out expenses associated first. Sometimes those expenses are ridiculous.

There is a good quiz in today's Wall Street Journal, last section, on charities - which ones do what, how much expense vs distribution, what kinds, etc. I knew that a lot of charities had high expense ratios, but didn't know that a lot have ratios in the 80%+ range. I did know about such organizations as March of Dimes which is over 90%. American Red Cross, on the other hand, spends almost all of its donations on their goals, like disaster relief (2 major fires in San Francisco last night, displacing several hundred people, with AMR finding temporary shelters for them - these folks are fast, and those fires are just a tiny part of what they do).

Hey everyone.. I have been laying low for the past several weeks... I have been reading this thread daily.. I didn't want anyone to think I was gone :D Been dealing with some personal medical issues so I have not been able to get out as much. New years I plan on getting out as often as I use to. Been doing more gear research on my down time.. I think I have a great idea of I would like to carry. Seasonal and daily.

I want to thank everyone for the great suggestions and comments left!

I am still having a hard time choosing boots! lol... I have found a few smaller bags for day hikes. I still plan on using my TAD gear bag for a long daily hiker pack. It has been serving as my school bag for the time being.

My mother is getting me the Maxpedition EDC Pocket Organizer for Christmas. I'm as excited as a schoolgirl about having a way to organize some of the smaller items in my EDC gear. The Versipack is a great daypack, but little things can easily get lost, even in the smaller pockets you still have to scavenge around to find them.

I actually created an account to stick up for you... nice pack, nice weapon. I considered trading my new Granite Gear Special Mission Raid for the TAD, but since I'd already traded once to get the Granite Gear I decided to stay with it. My Kimber is always with me also - for me it's not an option.

Part of the reason I haven't pursued the backpacker media (forums like this, magazines, etc), is because the demographic is typically at the opposite end of the political spectrum of the hunter or military outdoorsman - this thread demonstrates the conflict immediately. This is sad, but I also see a lot of civility and varying posts so that's a good thing.

I will post, and hope to encourage therefore, tolerance of viewpoints different than ours on behalf of those long timers here, and therefore make welcome potential new comers like you and I.

If I see a thread with a new member posting his list and asking for advice (as healthy an attitude as you can have, and flattering to the forum members to boot) and he's attacked for being a believer in carrying a pistol, the status quo will stay the same and people like Jason and I will leave. He didn't come on here saying others are foolish for NOT carrying a pistol for defense, or that buying a pack ligther than 1000 denier nylon means you made the wrong decision for durability...

I would propose rather - and because I sought out this forum for this purpose - that both types of folks can learn from each other. Take what works for you, leave what doesn't, come out ahead as a result...

I'm checking this place out to glean what new information I can from a new group of outdoor enthusiasts.... I hope all outdoor enthusiasts are welcome and respected if they act respectfully.

I'm way late on this thread but reading it reminded me of the movie hurt locker. after all the war action he found himself trying to pick out cereal.... then the scene cut to him joining back up for more war time. Lets face it, most people have a very boring life, Then some get out looking for a change in our daily routines. Problem is, there's not always a killer in the woods, or a mountain lion terrorizing a group of kids. I believe that most of what seems to be negative comments are coming from seasoned vets that know this.

What it boils down to is finding what works for you. Half the battle is getting the items that make you feel comfortable(on a mental level) in what you're doing. I've not posted much on this site but check it daily and found some of the ideas to work for me or at least lead me to ideas that do work.

@bahn - when you ask for opinions you have to expect to get bad and good. most of which here seems to be constructive.

..Part of the reason I haven't pursued the backpacker media (forums like this, magazines, etc), is because the demographic is typically at the opposite end of the political spectrum of the hunter or military outdoorsman - this thread demonstrates the conflict immediately. This is sad, but I also see a lot of civility and varying posts so that's a good thing...

Actually the conflicts within this thread mostly weighed the merits and motives of gear choices, and did not dwell on the morality issues that often permeate this type of discussion elsewhere. When you get around to reading the older threads you will realize many of the long time members of this forum are, or have been, hunters themselves, so most of us have no anti firearm agendas as such. But we do differ whether a gun is the best or even a necessary means for self protection in most back country regions.

You are probably correct to state this isn’t the best venue to muse about hunting in general or fire arms in particular. The reason primarily is guns are a potentially dangerous past time, and one really doesn’t know the level of expertise of the readership. It would be easy confuse the lesser informed or for a self anointed arm chair expert to provide inappropriate advice. Note if you visit the climbing section of this forum there is very little technical advice there, too, pretty much for the same reasons. So yea, we probably are not the best group to seek advice about tactical sports. But we take pride in fostering mutual respect, keeping debates focused on exchanges of ideas, usually avoid politically charged remarks, and otherwise try to self police the urge to give in to our inflammatory personal agendas.

FWIW I found hunters, equestrians, and hikers have much more in common, regarding political agendas, that many other special interests. We are actually pretty closely aligned on the political spectrum, at least in this regard. Serious and avid outdoorsmen of all ilk realize conservation of, and access to the backcountry is fundamental to their pastimes. The shrewd outdoorsman will look for alliances in this objective; my wilderness is definitely big enough for hunters, fishermen, horse riders, and anyone else who respects these resources, and is willing to afford the costs of access and upkeep. It is the non outdoorsman who defines the opposite end of the political spectrum, who is indifferent or opposed to funding these objectives. To that end I think you’ll find Trailspace has a pretty big tent, with room for just about anyone willing to be a steward of the outdoors.

I actually created an account to stick up for you... nice pack, nice weapon. I considered trading my new Granite Gear Special Mission Raid for the TAD, but since I'd already traded once to get the Granite Gear I decided to stay with it. My Kimber is always with me also - for me it's not an option.

Part of the reason I haven't pursued the backpacker media (forums like this, magazines, etc), is because the demographic is typically at the opposite end of the political spectrum of the hunter or military outdoorsman - this thread demonstrates the conflict immediately. This is sad, but I also see a lot of civility and varying posts so that's a good thing.

I will post, and hope to encourage therefore, tolerance of viewpoints different than ours on behalf of those long timers here, and therefore make welcome potential new comers like you and I.

If I see a thread with a new member posting his list and asking for advice (as healthy an attitude as you can have, and flattering to the forum members to boot) and he's attacked for being a believer in carrying a pistol, the status quo will stay the same and people like Jason and I will leave. He didn't come on here saying others are foolish for NOT carrying a pistol for defense, or that buying a pack ligther than 1000 denier nylon means you made the wrong decision for durability...

I would propose rather - and because I sought out this forum for this purpose - that both types of folks can learn from each other. Take what works for you, leave what doesn't, come out ahead as a result...

I'm checking this place out to glean what new information I can from a new group of outdoor enthusiasts.... I hope all outdoor enthusiasts are welcome and respected if they act respectfully.

Bahnstoermer,

Hey man thanks for joining up! Glad to see you like the TAD stuff.. :) Which Kimber do you carry?? I do like some of the feed back I have received on here.. Some folks choose not to carry and that's fine. I just wish they would leave their opinions to themselves when it comes to concealed or open carry. It's my right, and I will exercise it :) There is a vast amount of experience in just this thread alone.. I really like that. I have taken several things away from replies already..

I am going to be adding an addition to my hiking. I am going to most likely be purchasing a BMW F800GS. It's an adventure bike/enduro class basically. I can take it off road where allowed of course. I plan to take that up in to a few remote places to maybe fish or just take some nice slow hikes.. Should be interesting to see how it plays out...

I hope everyone that has replied to this thread is doing well and staying fit... That's it for now.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen... I appreciate the mature responses, and look forward to reading through more threads as mentioned. To try and answer some of the outstanding points...

"Military outdoorsman" - in no way a standardized term or even something I've heard before, I simply grapsed for a way to describe those military service men and women who don't work in logistics behind a desk or service vehicles in a depot - not saying anything negative there - but those who live and work in the field in remote and hostile areas and whose lives can depend on their gear. Naturally, this is another group of people with great experience and who are good to network with, learn from, and generally exchange information with just like this forum for hikers... and to any servicemen/women on here, thank you. Freedom is NOT free!

I agree that outdoors people can usually find common ground on being conservationists and that it's a good tack to take. Though irresponsible exceptions always exist, the majority of hunters and hikers and climbers can agree on that - we can all unite to protect the existence of our wildlife and great national treasures!

I also agree that most opinions expressed here seem constructive and well intentioned, and that's all we can all strive for. Sometimes everyone may not agree, but agreeing isn't the point... rather the point is to share experience and learn from each other, and that doesn't even require difference of opinions to be resolved. In many cases I don't think it should be even a goal...

Anyway, enough on that topic, thanks very much for the welcome and I'm glad this forum is welcoming to all respectful folks.

Jason, thanks for the welcome as well. I carry a 5" TLE RL II Stainless I bought circa 2006. It's a great piece, though I don't ever really use the rail and in hindsight would have gone without it as it's a good bit heavier. It had extractor problems at first (when Kimber had the rash of external extractor problems) but it was replaced with an internal and has been 99.99% since then - not an estimate, actually calculated. There's been only one failure of any kind since 2006 and that was probably factory mag related as I use Nighthawk mags now and have never had that failure repeat so I am satisfied my life is safe with this piece. I knew this had the bad extractor setup when I bought it and used it to get a discount, then Kimber fixed it for free so it worked out! I'd like to get a 4" for carry and convert the 5" to a .460 Roland hunting backup piece, but the guns I like are pricey (just like everything else I like LOL!) so this setup will have to do for the foreseeable future. My circa 2007 TAD Explorer jacket ("Rhinohide" a very durable softshell, DWR treated with PU laminate and a liner) is exactly what I was looking for - water resistant, pretty damn tough, well fitted, and looks great years later. A great all around outdoor and cold weather psuedo-shell. I should have bought their equivalent material alpine pants while they still made them. Oh, the ups and downs of TAD... I really am jealous of your pack, I am just a sucker for super top notch quality and tough as nails durability combined! How do you like it? Is it amazing or really good or good? I'd put my Granite Gear in the "really good" for likely durability, but I wanted the "amazing" fit and finish I imagine the TAD has and it's not there. More just like a good solid pack, but nothing jaw dropping. Its tough buying these things via mail order when you can't see them first.

The adventure bike sounds awesome, I too am a rider though currently it's a sport bike (Ducati 1098). My brother has a BMW 650 dual sport of some flavor, he rode it from Oregon to Virginia last year!

I'd like to move out west and get an off road machine, or maybe an adventure bike, but a move has to actually happen first LOL. If off road I'd probably get a thumper of the 650 single type, maybe the Honda, but for a higher end bike a BMW would be on the list for sure.

1. If a cougar jumps you, it will do it from behind. All you'll feel will be an impact on your back, and a big paw snapping your head back.

2. Bear spray works 90-95% of the time. On bears and cougars and dogs and elk and even people. A gun doesn't.

3. Time required to deploy bear spray is about two or three seconds. I know two hunters who got between a mama grizzly and her cub. Neither one had time to use his rifle.

4. The weight of a can of spray is about 1/2 lb.

Logically, then, the only reason to carry a gun in the mountains is because you expect to run into someone else carrying a gun.

That's pretty sad.

peter1955,

I believe maybe you should read through the WHOLE thread. Feel free to post up something that is more helpful. Depending where you have your spray located, a hand gun (pistol) can be deployed just as fast if not faster. Let me ask you, are you going to buy a sweet little bear spray holder with some fancy release system and not test it before a long hike? I would hope not. Same would apply to a pistol. I urge to practice safety with your bear spray and carry system for it. I do this everyday with my pistol. I am very familiar with how my system works, and very confident I could protect myself and others around me if needed. I don't carry because I "expect" to run into someone else carrying a pistol or rifle. No big deal if they are. It's not breaking any local laws where I live.

Also I wouldn't carry a file while hiking anyway. It is a VERY large piece of equipment I don't feel is needed nor was list anywhere on my items in the OP. I encourage your positive feedback in my thread. As does the community. It's not fair of you to not add something that others can't use or take away from. There has been a TON of great info posted up in this thread. I have thanked each and every person who has provided such great feedback.

This thread was not an argument or debate. It was merely started as a question I had on my gear choices with a few revisions. I have learned A LOT from the replies here in this thread. There is a huge amount of knowledge on this site. Main reason I chose it.

Much of the time it’s my trusty old police trade in Glock 17, in fact it’s on my hip as I type this at work at my desk.

More and more though I’ve taken to openly carrying a cowboy thumbuster in a nice leather gunbelt, open carry being perfectly legal here in Washington state, and I do actually prefer six-shooters.

My wife also carries a gun every single day. There have been times when we have both been very glad we were armed, especially my wife as we live in a remote area and red necks and white trash are not always “kind and helpful” when encountering a young and attractive female alone in the woods, but I’ll not go into that here.

Backpacking I’ll almost always also carry a gun. Not because I fear the animals that live in the woods but just as an extension of my daily carry habits, an expression of my individual sovereignty, and yes, to be able to defend against the lower forms of two legged life one sometimes encounters.

Indeed, I feel far more comfortable in the forest and mountains than I ever do in town, so I have on occasion tried to reduce my pack load and carried a small alloy framed .380 ACP auto ( a Bersa ) in a shoulder holster when hiking long distances on week long trips. I never knew it was there.

I have also gotten a Glock 26, the compact 9mm which in my eye is close to an ideal backpacking and lightweight daily carry gun (Heh, no 9mm vs .40 vs .45 arguments, please! )

I’ve rigged up a nylon cross draw holster that attaches to the hip belt of my backpack, and it also has a single shoulder that goes over the opposite shoulder.

It’s a surprisingly comfortable way to carry a boat anchor backpacking.

I can remember one backpacking trip many moons ago when I was hiking with two young and attractive females ( one who would become my wife in the fullness of time ). We came out of the forest to the banks of a mountain lake where a pile of red necks were car camped and were apparently liquored up pretty good. At the time I got the distinct impression that their reaction to the two scantily clad ( bikini tops, shorts and backpacks ) young females was restrained only by the openly worn .44 magnum at my hip.

And in northern Idaho in general, it is quite common indeed to encounter fellow hikers who are well heeled.

But for daily carry? My firearm stays on my hip where it belongs, always, sometimes concealed and sometimes not, but never packed away in a daypack!

It ain’t much use packed away, you’ll never get to it in time if you do need it.

Inside is my ancient leatherman supertool, in the winter always a small LED headlamp, a compass, chapstick, Bic, book matches, pack of Kleenex, arm brace for my “tennis elbow”, inhaler for my asthma ( getting old sucks, but thankfully I’ve been able to pretty much beat down my asthma with nutritional supplements! ), wallet, checkbook, usually a little misc. paperwork. It is in fact, no more than a Man Purse…

In my pockets resides my basic never-leave-home-without-it-kit, which is no more than a sharp locking pocketknife like the Gerber LST ( one ounce ), a Bic and a small flashlight ( right now an Inova photon knockoff). Lightweight, never-know-you-have-it-in-fact, but to me quite indispensable “first line” ( another survivalist – military type term ) gear. This stuff also stays in my pockets when backpacking.

I don’t carry my leatherman backpacking. To dang heavy and I have no use for it. But it’s close to hand otherwise.

Heh, I liked Brerarnolds first post.

Like him, you should see the back of my car….

In there I carry a pretty good set of gear, tools, stuff to fix flats, extract the car when it gets stuck, a decent first aid kit, yada, yada, and a backpack with a pretty good set of gear already packed, enough so that I can simply walk home from wherever I may be should I have to. Over the years I have indeed needed much of this junk for one thing or another.

One last thing I want to comment upon - Jason, you would be dead wrong in your assumption that the noise of a firearm will scare off a bear -

Once upon a time ( 2001 it was…) my wife and I just got back to our remote coittage in the woods from a four day backpacking trip to discover muddy bear paw prints on the windows of our cottage. We’d been stupid, and left a small amount of trash in the kitchen trash can when we left. A bear had smelled that and been attracted to the cottage.

No matter, we heated up water on our propane stove and my wife got to take the first hot shower, which as we all know feels so very good after a few days hiking.

Me, I went out back to visit the outhouse. Right outside the back door I ran into a big black bear!

Well, naturally I happened to have a shotgun loaded with triple ought buck in my hand at the time. After all, doesn’t everyone have an “outhouse gun”? Besides, I knew there was a bear in the area. Anyway, the bear and I each stood our respective ground, no more than five feet apart and not more than ten feet from my back door, and proceeded to have an argument.

I got mad and yelled at him quite a bit. He was the strong silent type and mostly just stood there and glowered at me threateningly.

So I got even more madder, and discharged that shotgun into the ground right under the bear! I emptied all four rounds in the shotgun, BOOMBOOMBOOMBOOM!

The bear didn’t even bat an eye.

He just started to growl at me, and oh yeah, my gun was empty now…

Long story short, I did chase that bear off that night with more gunfire ( from an AK- 47 no less, it takes allot of noise and flash to drive off a bear! ), but he kept hanging around. One day he encountered my wife alone in the woods and growled at her, and I pretty much decided then that this particular bear might have to die. But I am very reluctant to kill. I like wildlife. I like living “where the wild things roam”. I’m not afraid of bears or mountain lions, both of which I have encountered more than once. If I wanted a boring, safe life, I’d move to town. But this bear was being aggressive, and he was hanging around my homestead.

So, following the advice of a fella I talked to at the state fish and wildlife department, I loaded me shotgun with buck again, but the last round in was a light # 8 load.

This is very fine lead shot, about 2mm in diameter and about 400 to the shotshell. It’s very lightly loaded and used for the smallest of game or clay pigeon targets.

That very night I was preparing for bed, standing around in my underwear brushing my teeth – Do you stare blankly into the bathroom mirror as you brush your teeth or do you wander around and look at things? I’m of the wandering sort, and that’s how I glanced out the window and happened to see the bear in our back yard.

I grabbed up my shotgun and out I ran into the yard in my underwear with the toothbrush firmly clamped in mu mug!

BOOM!

I nailed that bear right in the butt with the load of # 8. ( the bear was about 50 feet away. To close and you can do very serious damage even with # 8, and that was not my intent ).

I racked the shotgun slide instantly as the gun recoiled in my hands, to be ready if the bear charged me.

No worries though, that bear ran away very fast and hard, never to be seen again! I could hear him running away for more than a mile as he crashed through the forest.

If you have never seen a bear run, you simply will not believe how fast and powerful they are.

The shot just barley penetrated his skin and stung him a bit. See, you need to actually hurt a bear to drive it off.

When my one neighbor on this mountain gets a bear in his yard he trees it with his dogs, then calmly shoots it with marbles from a powerful sligshot!

He empties the whole bag of marbles on the stupid bear, then calls the dog off and goes inside, and watches the bear climb down and slink away from a window.

Come to think of it, I can relate a similar bear story where gunfire was totally ineffective.

My wife and I moved up into the forest in 1998. We parked a 16 foot travel trailer and moved in. In our spare time we started building our straw bale cottage.

I’d drive to work in town most weekdays, and the wife would stay home. She dug the foundation for our cottage little by little, all by herself, with a shovel.

I’d get to pickax out the stubborn bits at night after dinner. We lived in that travel trailer for a year and a half, through a winter with 15 feet of snow and subzero temperatures. It was the time of our lives!

Anyway, moving into the forest always involves displacing a certain amount of the local wildlife, and worse, humans are sloppy, stupid creatures.

We had a cat, and this cat lived outside the trailer. He’d sleep on the roof at night, and ( pay attention because this is where we blew it ) we fed the cat outside the trailer as well.

Big mistake. Having a cat attracted the local Bobcats who like to eat housecats, and the cat food attracted the local bears, who love to eat cat food.

One night we had a black bear messing around outside looking for the cat food so up I jumped and in my skivvies ran out with my huge trusty rusty Ruger .44 Magnum Boat Anchor clutched in a fist!

Is it just me, or does every homesteader wind up running around in the forest at night in his underwear brandishing firearms? Seems to happen to me a lot for some reason…

I saw that bear and I let him have it! The mighty .44 magnum roared six times as I sent bullets right over his head, into the dirt right under his legs, and otherwise very close indeed to his person!

The poor little black bear just sat down and looked at me.

His expression said “Hey, all I wanted was a midnight snack! This stuff was just laying around here so I thought I’d help myself!”

I didn’t know what to do – Should I reload my gun and keep shooting? Should I shoot to kill? Should I go and bonk it over the head with a stick?

The heck with it, it’s late, so I shrugged, and simply went inside and back to bed….

We naturally wised up and cleaned up the camp and kept it spotless after that. No garbage, unwashed dishes or cat food at all!

The bear keep hanging around, never showing up when we were there but visiting whenever we turned our backs for even a few minutes.

He ripped a padlocked steel door off a nearby storage shed one day, and found a five gallon pail of lentils.

He tore open the lentils and scattered them everywhere, but didn’t eat any. After that he must have been pretty disgusted with us ( who the heck eats lentils anyway? ) because he stopped visiting.

We took the claw marked and chewed five gallon pail back to the bulk food store where we had gotten it, and they hung it up with a sign to the effect that although these were great pails to store food in they were not actually bear proof…

The lentils he scatted to the winds sprouted, and for a while we had a green lawn.

Here in the eastern woodlands I have yelled at bears and they have indeed run off (they will usually run off as soon as they perceive your presence). There have been a few times where they didn’t and those times were quite unnerving.

Thank you for sharing. In my experience with bears, I have been lucky enough to ward those things off with just sound. A mountain lion I have came into contact with as well, small but pretty aggressive same results. Neither time did I have to deploy my pistol. I never said I carry my pistol in my pack. Case in point you hit the nail on the head. It would be pointless to have it in my pack. I have a very durable hip/leg holster I use when I hike with it. Open carry is the only way I hike. In most cases people here in Colorado Springs have said nothing to me. On a few occasions, I was asked who I was looking for. Reason I bring this up because my pack, M&P look, and my pistol holster M&P look. I guess they thought I was a park ranger or something. Not my intent one bit. I think each person who as came across a bear can share and add something new to their experience.

Again thanks for replying. I hope I don't see a quick response and then nothing more. I like it when people stay active and bring good informative info in here. Not just a here's my story and no longer come back :)

did you say 1800cu.in.?i hope you dont wear underwear,or eat food or need shelter.my god chevy has a crate engine 572 cu.in.you just got a new name"loft"somehow i accumulate 7000cu.in.on a 3day trip,maybe i should call myself "loft",fluffy.

oh,by the way mountain lion is the worst tasting stuff you will ever eat,bar none!i would love to hear from someone that likes the taste of mountain lion,NASTY!

This is the 2nd reference you've made (that I've seen) to eating North America's largest cat. I'm so curious I could bust. Where did you get it, how was it prepared, what would you compare the taste and texture to. Please, oh please elaborate!

Some of my carnivore encounters. And no, in many decades of wandering in the woods and hills on 6 of the 7 continents, I have never carried firearms on any of my backpacking or climbing expeditions. Never needed one, never was in a situation where I wanted one. When I was growing up, we raised much of our food, with the meat often sourced by hunting (in those days, you could get a deer tag on your parents' license as soon as you were big enough to carry the rifle - still have that Winchester). In all of the images, there was nothing between me and the carnivore but air (except for the large boar in the second image, where he was in the thicket)

And a coyote (since people around here are fearing hiking on the trails in the local Open Space Reserves)