You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.

Welcome Debir.

The bible isn't clear because it has nothing to work with. Except made up stuff. Which is inherently flakey. Especially when you don't have a good editor.

Pick a random group of 1,000 self-identified christians and ask them ten random questions about the bible. I can guarantee that no two of those thousand would give you the same ten answers. That is what makes the religion so believable. Adherents get to customize the crap out of it.

Regardless of our belief in god. We weep for those lost, not because we know they're in a better place, but because they are no longer here with us. Parents cry when their kids go off to get an education and hopefully make something better of themselves, this doesn't mean that the parents believe it's a bad thing to send their kids off. The parents will miss their kids and this is why we weep. Just because we believe they're in a better place doesn't mean we will not miss them. I don't think that all atheists weep because the children are gone to a "worse" place. They weep because they're gone. Just like we do. Regardless of where they are now, they're gone from us here.

Regardless of our belief in god. We weep for those lost, not because we know they're in a better place, but because they are no longer here with us. Parents cry when their kids go off to get an education and hopefully make something better of themselves, this doesn't mean that the parents believe it's a bad thing to send their kids off. The parents will miss their kids and this is why we weep. Just because we believe they're in a better place doesn't mean we will not miss them. I don't think that all atheists weep because the children are gone to a "worse" place. They weep because they're gone. Just like we do. Regardless of where they are now, they're gone from us here.

You know, Kardula, I really tried to take that into account when I went through the process of trying to understand the Christian perspective.

That is why I tried to imagine a scenario in which my beloved daughter was "gone" but was in what she considered a "better place." I imagined her as a young woman whose dream was to be selected to colonize Mars. Gone forever from my life, but happy, fulfilled, accomplished. I would miss her. Sure I would cry when the rocket took off, and perhaps at holidays when she was not with me, and as I wrote, I would resent being cheated out of the milestones in her life that I had anticipated.

But mostly, I would be happy. Proud. I believe that this life is our only life, and there is nothing I want more for my daughter than for her to be happy, accomplished, for her to contribute to the future of the human race, for her to be a good person. And if a one way trip to Mars was the means by which she would be happy, accomplished, contributing and good, I would be thrilled and joyous and happy and proud. Sad for me. Happy for her.

Now if her rocketship exploded a year after take off, and everyone perished, and she never made it to Mars and she never accomplished her dreams, I would be devastated beyond conception.

In both cases, she would be absent from my life. But as someone who loves her more than anything in the world, her absence from my life would only be a small component of my emotions.

But if I were a Christian, and my hopes were not for her accomplishments and joy in this life, but for her entrance into eternal bliss, wouldn't both scenarios (one in which she was living on Mars, and one in which she was dead), wouldn't those two scenarios be both the same? Wouldn't my pain be related only to me, and to the fact that I "miss her" rather than the fact that I love her, and want what is best for her?

Regardless of our belief in god. We weep for those lost, not because we know they're in a better place, but because they are no longer here with us. Parents cry when their kids go off to get an education and hopefully make something better of themselves, this doesn't mean that the parents believe it's a bad thing to send their kids off. The parents will miss their kids and this is why we weep. Just because we believe they're in a better place doesn't mean we will not miss them. I don't think that all atheists weep because the children are gone to a "worse" place. They weep because they're gone. Just like we do. Regardless of where they are now, they're gone from us here.

You know, Kardula, I really tried to take that into account when I went through the process of trying to understand the Christian perspective.

That is why I tried to imagine a scenario in which my beloved daughter was "gone" but was in what she considered a "better place." I imagined her as a young woman whose dream was to be selected to colonize Mars. Gone forever from my life, but happy, fulfilled, accomplished. I would miss her. Sure I would cry when the rocket took off, and perhaps at holidays when she was not with me, and as I wrote, I would resent being cheated out of the milestones in her life that I had anticipated.

But mostly, I would be happy. Proud. I believe that this life is our only life, and there is nothing I want more for my daughter than for her to be happy, accomplished, for her to contribute to the future of the human race, for her to be a good person. And if a one way trip to Mars was the means by which she would be happy, accomplished, contributing and good, I would be thrilled and joyous and happy and proud. Sad for me. Happy for her.

Now if her rocketship exploded a year after take off, and everyone perished, and she never made it to Mars and she never accomplished her dreams, I would be devastated beyond conception.

In both cases, she would be absent from my life. But as someone who loves her more than anything in the world, her absence from my life would only be a small component of my emotions.

But if I were a Christian, and my hopes were not for her accomplishments and joy in this life, but for her entrance into eternal bliss, wouldn't both scenarios (one in which she was living on Mars, and one in which she was dead), wouldn't those two scenarios be both the same? Wouldn't my pain be related only to me, and to the fact that I "miss her" rather than the fact that I love her, and want what is best for her?

I am really thinking about this in an attempt to understand.

What is the justification for empathizing about Christianity?

Logged

Fuck the Bible, you can't even eat in it.

First I told my imaginary friend about Jesus, then I told Jesus about my imaginary friend.

You know, Kardula, I really tried to take that into account when I went through the process of trying to understand the Christian perspective.

That is why I tried to imagine a scenario in which my beloved daughter was "gone" but was in what she considered a "better place." I imagined her as a young woman whose dream was to be selected to colonize Mars. Gone forever from my life, but happy, fulfilled, accomplished. I would miss her. Sure I would cry when the rocket took off, and perhaps at holidays when she was not with me, and as I wrote, I would resent being cheated out of the milestones in her life that I had anticipated.

But mostly, I would be happy. Proud. I believe that this life is our only life, and there is nothing I want more for my daughter than for her to be happy, accomplished, for her to contribute to the future of the human race, for her to be a good person. And if a one way trip to Mars was the means by which she would be happy, accomplished, contributing and good, I would be thrilled and joyous and happy and proud. Sad for me. Happy for her.

Now if her rocketship exploded a year after take off, and everyone perished, and she never made it to Mars and she never accomplished her dreams, I would be devastated beyond conception.

In both cases, she would be absent from my life. But as someone who loves her more than anything in the world, her absence from my life would only be a small component of my emotions.

But if I were a Christian, and my hopes were not for her accomplishments and joy in this life, but for her entrance into eternal bliss, wouldn't both scenarios (one in which she was living on Mars, and one in which she was dead), wouldn't those two scenarios be both the same? Wouldn't my pain be related only to me, and to the fact that I "miss her" rather than the fact that I love her, and want what is best for her?

I am really thinking about this in an attempt to understand.

Many Christians who've lost loved one will take solice in that we believe we will see them again eventually. As your light at the end of the tunnel is knowing your daughter is happy on Mars, ours is knowing we will be reunited with our loved ones someday. We will miss them certainly and it will be worse around the holidays, but knowing that we will see them again will give us some comfort.

@ None - I try to empathize with everyone. As a secular humanist, I try to understand the human condition, and understand what motivates us as individuals and as communities. I try to act in a way that values the lives of other human beings, and understanding those human beings is the first step.

I try to teach my daughter to use empathy for others as her moral compass, in the same way my father taught me to do the same. I don't always succeed. But I try.

Logged

3sigma

How would I feel? Sure, there would be nights that I might privately cry a little bit out of selfishness, perhaps a little resentful about the fact that I did not get to enjoy the parts of my daughter’s life that I felt entitled to enjoy.

I think this could explain why religious believers aren’t happy. They aren’t so much thinking about the departed, but about themselves. Understandably, they can’t bear the thought of never being able to see or speak to their children again, at least for the rest of their own lives.

I don’t think your analogy of your daughter going to Mars quite works because you could reasonably expect not to lose touch with her completely. It is reasonable to expect that you would have audio and video communication with her and, by the time we have a colony on Mars, there may even be holographic telepresence capabilities. You could probably even feel like you were actually at her wedding.

None of that would be the case if she had died instead. That would leave an altogether different void in your life. So, even if religious believers were deliriously happy that their children were “residing with Jesus” (as I’ve seen on some headstones), it would be tempered by the knowledge that they will not see them again in their lifetime.

You would think the bible would be clear on these things, but its not.

It can't be clear, because it has to establish a dichotomy between either heaven or hell, and leave people in the maximum amount of anxiety, so they then try harder to adhere to their peer group's demands. Islam establishes 7 levels of heaven, so you can kid yourself, that if you are moderately good, you can get into the bottom level. Jesus is supposed to be on level 4 or 5 (I forget).

Christianity just has one generic hell, and one generic heaven... unless you are one of the 144,000 virgin males, spoken of in Revelation. This leaves the possibility that if you are 1% badder than someone who just scrapes into heaven, you will burn for eternity, instead of joy for eternity. Christians are generally in denial that this is the case, and cite Paul who espouses being saved by belief, rather than deeds. But, that never washes, since they can't prove whether that works, either.

Although Christians can stomach adults going to hell, because they were 1% badder than someone else, their badly thought-out paradigm falls on its arse, because children can't possibly have been saved, or have done any good deeds. They then need to pretend that God saves people based on predetermination, and other magical principles, not mentioned except in-passing, by Paul - rendering the whole act of Christ, and living, to be nearly pointless.

It was sooo important for God to sacrifice his one begotten son, at a fairly late date in history, so that modern humans could know about it, and try to force people to associate with the brand name Christ™.

In other words, if you believe in hell, the Christian paradigm falls apart, and if you don't believe in hell, the religion can't compete against other religions that have a larger threat. The compromise is to have a religion that doesn't make sense.

Logged

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Thank you jaimehlers. That is an interesting perspective. I still don't understand. Which is why I tried to identify with the emotions by creating the "my daughter is going to colonize Mars and I'll never see her again" scenario, because I thought it would get me closer to understanding. I'd never see her again. I'd miss her, I'd miss the life that I had imagined us having together, with milestones and all, and I'd be a little sad. But mostly proud and happy.

Lori, I know you have a very different set of beliefs. I'd be interested if you would be willing to share.

maybe there is a good reason to not colonize mars...um, we don't need to.sure we can visit but who wants to colonize anything? aren't we done colonizing as a species?

I believe there is evidence the Earth has suffered cataclysmic extinction events in the past, and there is no reason to believe similar events wont reoccur. So we're not done colonizing, whether it be Mars or wherever. If we can, we should, because we literally have all our eggs in one basket.

Devastation at a loss predates religions by thousands of years - it is innate in all of us. So that is why we wail and despair when we lose someone. If religions had been present since the dawn of man we would be happy at a loss.

Logged

People are 'erroneously confident' in their knowledge and underestimate the odds that their information or beliefs will be proved wrong. They tend to seek additional information in ways that confirm what they already believe. Max Bazenman, Harvard University

Devastation at a loss predates religions by thousands of years - it is innate in all of us. So that is why we wail and despair when we lose someone. If religions had been present since the dawn of man we would be happy at a loss.

Very interesting perspective. There is significant evidence that animals also mourn the dead.

I'm sure many have seen the pictures of the murdered children. For me it is heartbreaking, particularly since the little girl with the bright red hair looks just like my daughter at that age and when I see her I see my little girl, now all grown.

As a father, if my young child was at risk of being murdered and it was completely within my power to stop it, yet I chose not to do so, then I would be considered the lowest form of scum.

The mythical Christian god on the other hand gets a pass when it comes to saving his children, actual little children from being brutally murdered. We all know the tired old argument given--that god cannot override a person's free will, and he can't except when all the time he does because so much of prayer involves petitioning god to interfere with a person's free will. Yet Christians are masters of rationalizing and cooking the books to make it come out heads god wins, tales god wins. When all else fails they fall back on the weary old line "it's a mystery".

The mythical Christian god on the other hand gets a pass when it comes to saving his children, actual little children from being brutally murdered. We all know the tired old argument given--that god cannot override a person's free will, and he can't except when all the time he does because so much of prayer involves petitioning god to interfere with a person's free will. Yet Christians are masters of rationalizing and cooking the books to make it come out heads god wins, tales god wins. When all else fails they fall back on the weary old line "it's a mystery".

Pathetic, and sad.

Would it have violated the killer's free will if God just jammed the trigger mechanism?

Logged

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Some of the parents may be having doubts about their children being in heaven. A horrible event can shake someone's faith at least temporarily. Most theists will sit somewhere on a continuum of belief, seldom having complete certainty. And even if they do have certainty they only know a tiny part of the nature of heaven and the nature of God and even the nature of this life, so it is always an incomplete picture.

But all of that is not the reason why they are crying. They are crying because they have lost connection to something (albeit temporarily) very dear to them.

There are some enlightened beings who have seen past the temporary nature of this physical life and do not grieve at the death of loved ones. But that level of understanding is very rare.

Logged

kitten

even if there is something better waiting for us after we die, parents are still allowed to miss their children, and to be upset over that loss, no matter where the child went, be it mars or "heaven". i'm sad when my kids want to go on vacation with their grandparents, i'm not jumping for joy, i'm sad they're not with me. that doesn't make sense?

personally i don't understand the need for crazies to take others with them before they go, aside from a sick form of population control, if they don't want to be here, don't, but no need to involve others who aren't asking to be brought along.

The mythical Christian god on the other hand gets a pass when it comes to saving his children, actual little children from being brutally murdered. We all know the tired old argument given--that god cannot override a person's free will, and he can't except when all the time he does because so much of prayer involves petitioning god to interfere with a person's free will. Yet Christians are masters of rationalizing and cooking the books to make it come out heads god wins, tales god wins. When all else fails they fall back on the weary old line "it's a mystery".

Pathetic, and sad.

Would it have violated the killer's free will if God just jammed the trigger mechanism?

Good point. I guess the excuss that believers will fall back on is, "it's a mystery".

The kicker on all of this is that god knew this tragedy was going to happen before it happened and still the omniscient, omnipotent supreme being chose to do nothing even if it was jamming a trigger mechanism.

As a former Christian I'm amazed at how far Christianity is stretched from Scripture. When I first read this my first thought was why do you think they went to heaven? I know the age of accountability isn't called out in Scripture and its like a whoops after thought. Then you have the apostle Peter's first sermon: "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day . . . For David did not ascend to heaven . . ." (Acts 2:29, 34)

God called this same King David "a man after My own heart," one who would "do all My will" (Acts 13:22). Surely, if anyone had a right to heaven, wouldn't it be a person such as David? Yet Peter tells us God did not carry David off to heaven. The only one who had ascended to heaven, said Peter, was Jesus Christ (Acts 2:29-35).

Also the Gospel of John says: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man [Jesus Christ]" (John 3:13)

Jesus never promised Christians heaven after they died as far as I know. Yes, I know you can create some contradictions to this with other Scripture. The entire Bible is a contradiction after all and that is how we ended up with 30,000 denominations of Christianity. So at best if you buy into heaven these kids wait patiently in the ground till the second coming? Which by the way a very interesting denomination out of that 30,000 says we missed it and it already happened. Supported by Scripture of coarse!