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Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

Originally Posted by just-blaze

Are you being rhetorical? I'll answer anyways.

Beside the fact you brought up, the fact that there is a decline in hitting over the past five years due to steroid testing (supposedly), and the slightly subjective nature of what constitutes a starter, I think it's a useful tool. Hence......interesting.

No I grabbed that data as it seemed a reasonable relative measure for position re OPS. It's just that depending on how you frame the data and sample some stats vary a lot more than others and as you're noting there are all sorts of factors that can really move the numbers too. Comparing a stat like OPS on players from widely separated eras, which is how this got started is based on a fundamentally flawed assumption: that the basic nature of the game has remained similar enough to make such comparisons. This started by comparing Arod OPS to Yogi's and it had nothing to do with steroids (for a change). As a stat driven sport, MLB has a vested interest in maintaining the illusion the stats can be compared, it's romantic and it's fun, but especially with many of the modern stats, it's revealed to be obviously silly without pages of explanation.

Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

Originally Posted by YogiKnows

sorry I don't recall where I used stats ? No system of law is ever applied equally or fairly. In Alex's case it's not a question of civil rights, it's you're rights as an employee and the rule there forever has been "Don't piss off your boss". In any event Alex may yet get an open and 'fairer hearing'... except he may not want us all to see the evidence, time will tell. I don't think a dying man like Weiner is much concerned with anything but the truth and protecting his Union members, if Alex is treated in a grossly unfair manner, I expect we'll be hearing from them, if not, it means Alex's natural allies don't have the stomach to defend him.

Who pays A-rod for the lost time during the "illegal suspension" MLB? Yankees? No-one?

And do those recovered wages count against the Yankee cap if this goes into next year?

Welcome to the complexities of labor law. The CBA disposes of how the employer/employee relationship works, this is then overlaid with both a large amount of state and federal law. Let's get seriously complicated immediately: The CBA acknowledges the powers of both his direct employers(The Yankees) and the Commissioner. You can read elsewhere about his powers on issues outside the particular PED provisions, and yes, there is a provision that if he uses his absolute authority in a manner the Union finds unreasonable, they can demand the CBA be opened for renegotiation. Above that Alex/Yankee relationship is governed by NY State law as to anything not covered in the CBA, and in a Federal Court they would utilize NY labor law. There could be serious legal arguments over whether some issues are fully covered by the CBA or are open to NYS labor law precedent. You have no idea how easily this can be made complex.

Much of what they will probably charge him under is not open to arbitration. The CBA does not provide for it, NY law does not provide for it. No one has a 'fundamental right' to arbitration unless agreed to by both parties or specifically required by the CBA. The commissioner has some absolute powers and it's less unusual than you think for appeal to go to the same person... you have no appeal most places when the boss fires you.

If Arod manages to overthrow whatever MLB does to him in Federal Court, he will do what everyone else does: he will ask for all legal fees, and compensatory damages, which besides the legal fees could be more than what's remaining on his contract if he shows he was further injured by being deprived of the right to play.

I have never had a spare month to begin to understand the complexities of the cap rules, someone who's an expert on that is needed, and no, no one is ever made whole and perfect again, all courts can usually do is dole out money, on some issues you can get 'equitable relief' (have someone ordered to do something instead of just winning money) but no one could ever give Arod back the years...obviously.

Last edited by YogiKnows; 07-30-13 at 04:59 PM.
Reason: added about cap issue

Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

Originally Posted by YogiKnows

You have no idea how easily this can be made complex.

Oh I do. Believe me I do. And I'm pretty sure Alex and his attorneys are counting on it too.

As for a boss being able to fire "at will" sure that can happen but that's part of the reason unions and CBA exist in the first place. If MLB owners could fire players at will like the "good old days", Alex would be unemployed already.

Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

TAMPA, Fla. -- Alex Rodriguez spent a little over six hours at the Yankees minor league complex in Tampa on Tuesday as he awaits his fate from Major League Baseball. The embattled third-baseman arrived in his black Maybach just after 9 a.m. and eventually made it onto one of the four fields to take batting practice.

Wearing a Charleston RiverDogs cap, he warmed up and then hit for close to a half-hour before taking grounders at third base for about 20 minutes, throwing over to first and then to second. He finished his workout with eight 60-yard sprints and a variety of agility drills.

He left the field without speaking to reporters and stayed inside the complex for close to 2 1/2 hours. He re-emerged a little before 3 p.m., looking grim, and left in the $380,000 vehicle without stopping to speak to the media.

Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper

Oh I do. Believe me I do. And I'm pretty sure Alex and his attorneys are counting on it too.

As for a boss being able to fire "at will" sure that can happen but that's part of the reason unions and CBA exist in the first place. If MLB owners could fire players at will like the "good old days", Alex would be unemployed already.

When you have the law and the facts on your side, the pleadings are usually brief, and to the point. When your case is weak, you attempt to frame it as very complex..you try and 'baffle them with bull...' Alex's lawyers are going to work very hard, make a ton of money and are going to lose badly if he insists on fighting.

Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper

^tuesday, or never. That's cute.

What I don't get is if MLB is going to suspend why don't they just get it over with and announce?

Best guesses:

1. for whatever reason they didn't want all the names and I'm suspecting, others who have already settled to be released so teams can 'game' the situation prior to the trading deadline. If that's NOT the case I wouldn't be suprised if they extended the deadline.

2. They want to release the info on everyone at once and don't want to do so til everyone has had a chance to negotiate, in which case despite all the public posturing, it may be the MLB-Arod negotiations that are holding this up. If they settle you can be 100% sure that was the holdup.

Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

Originally Posted by YogiKnows

Welcome to the complexities of labor law. The CBA disposes of how the employer/employee relationship works, this is then overlaid with both a large amount of state and federal law. Let's get seriously complicated immediately: The CBA acknowledges the powers of both his direct employers(The Yankees) and the Commissioner. You can read elsewhere about his powers on issues outside the particular PED provisions, and yes, there is a provision that if he uses his absolute authority in a manner the Union finds unreasonable, they can demand the CBA be opened for renegotiation. Above that Alex/Yankee relationship is governed by NY State law as to anything not covered in the CBA, and in a Federal Court they would utilize NY labor law. There could be serious legal arguments over whether some issues are fully covered by the CBA or are open to NYS labor law precedent. You have no idea how easily this can be made complex.

Much of what they will probably charge him under is not open to arbitration. The CBA does not provide for it, NY law does not provide for it. No one has a 'fundamental right' to arbitration unless agreed to by both parties or specifically required by the CBA. The commissioner has some absolute powers and it's less unusual than you think for appeal to go to the same person... you have no appeal most places when the boss fires you.

If Arod manages to overthrow whatever MLB does to him in Federal Court, he will do what everyone else does: he will ask for all legal fees, and compensatory damages, which besides the legal fees could be more than what's remaining on his contract if he shows he was further injured by being deprived of the right to play.

I have never had a spare month to begin to understand the complexities of the cap rules, someone who's an expert on that is needed, and no, no one is ever made whole and perfect again, all courts can usually do is dole out money, on some issues you can get 'equitable relief' (have someone ordered to do something instead of just winning money) but no one could ever give Arod back the years...obviously.