I propose a solution. We have government healthcare (though flawed) but we send them to private hospitals and then tell the insurance agencies to duke it out with the government. We need the government to go one step further and create government hospitals where employees are on government salary so that it is ensured that they get paid fairly. Then the private hospitals have the right to refuse service to those who Cannot pay.

Thoughts?

The government hospitals would only look to cut costs and get through as many patients as cheaply as possible. Most of Europe has universal healthcare where the physicians are government employees and they don't make nearly as much money as their American counterparts.

Under your proposed system, the best doctors and surgeons would stay in private hospitals and make a ton of bank while everybody else (the lowly GPs, for example) would get shoved into a government hospital where their pay wouldn't be any better.

It sounds like your dad chose the wrong subspecialty in medicine to go into. Sucks for him and your family, but them's the breaks. Also, the vast majority surgeons make quite a bit of money (300k+ per year). You say your family is struggling, but do you know how much your dad makes? Or how much it costs to keep your family in the lifestyle it's accustomed to?

Ask your GP how much they make after expenses. They aren't poor, but they certainly aren't rich. I'd say they are underpaid for the amount of school they have to go through and pay for.

Just for the record. Are va hospitals good? I thought they were on the low end. I have no experience with them though. I may be spoiled by my hospitals though.

I never heard of even a remotely good experience from VA hospitals. I have never had an experience, but I only went once and it was everything I figured it would be. I eventually left and just hoped my ankle wasn't broken. I will NEVER set foot in a VA hospital, even if I think I'm dying.

People constantly complain at how much the government sucks, how lazy they're workers are, how overpaid they are, ect. But for some reason we're completely okay with this same government running hospitals and attempting to actually take care of individuals?

__________________In your haste to save the world, take care you don't destroy it.

Ask your GP how much they make after expenses. They aren't poor, but they certainly aren't rich. I'd say they are underpaid for the amount of school they have to go through and pay for.

Just for the record. Are va hospitals good? I thought they were on the low end. I have no experience with them though. I may be spoiled by my hospitals though.

With a median over $180k per year, even with expensive you're doing well.

My dad and grandfather have had pretty good experiences with the VA.

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"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"

He makes a point. Va hospitals get **** funding, and are overburdened... it is even more of a travesty when you consider the care of servicemen (and women) is a specific enumerated power.

If they can't do what they are charged with, why let them make their own rules etc etc etc

One type of government ran hospital being ran poorly has little to say about the ability for any government hospital to be ran well. This is essentially saying "well we tried to build an airplane and it didn't work, so therefore all airplanes don't work".

You know what they say, "If at first you don't succeed, quit."

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“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads

The issue is they are specifically tasked with this and they can't get it right. What evidence is there to support they will get something they aren't specifically tasked with (leaving alone the argument that they shouldn't be doing it at all)?

__________________--- UNDRPRVLGD Goggle Straps n stuff ---If this be treason, make the most of it.-Patrick HenryI'm a damn veteran, I've got more rights and privileges than you do.MQ2 rebuild kits, MP4 ram rebuilds, general 'cocker techingWill soon be making super slick mid/half block bolts

Last edited by barrel roll : 02-11-2013 at 05:53 PM.
Reason: and I quit :D

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“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads

With a median over $180k per year, even with expensive you're doing well.

My dad and grandfather have had pretty good experiences with the VA.

The specialists make that, but the GPs don't do that we'll. i consider them the average doctor. after insurance etc they told me they barely clear 100. That's why there's a shortage of GPs.

Some of the private hospitals are crappy too, so I really don't know how the va compares to the average private. I've had great experiences with even ghetto hospitals in my area. The billing process and insurance... That's another story.

So, if it is possible for a VA hospital to be run well (which after Umami's post, it seems they are considering), then can't we assume that it is possible for the government to run other hospitals well (like the ones proposed in the OP).

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“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads

The specialists make that, but the GPs don't do that we'll. i consider them the average doctor. after insurance etc they told me they barely clear 100. That's why there's a shortage of GPs.

Some of the private hospitals are crappy too, so I really don't know how the va compares to the average private. I've had great experiences with even ghetto hospitals in my area. The billing process and insurance... That's another story.

BLS disagrees.

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"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"

If it is possible for a VA hospital to be run well, then can't we assume that it is possible for the government to run other hospitals well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrel roll

That is quite a big "if".

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“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads

My point is very clear. One instance of poorly run government hospitals =/= the impossibility of a functional government run hospital. Would you like to see the formal logic of the mistake?

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“There are only two kinds of people, those who accept dogmas and know it, and those who accept dogmas and don’t know it.” – G. K. Chesterton - The Mercy of Mr. Arnold Bennett, Fancies vs. Fads

That's because there's such a big range. I know an anesthesiologist that makes 350k in Indiana. Plastic surgeons make a ton. Surgeons in general make a killing. That's why I said specialists do well. However GPs don't and a there's a shortage because of it. I'm just going by what I see and what I've been told. Definately not worth the amount of schooling and loans required. Certainly wouldn't make me want to go into the field. Doctors don't have the lobby power that insurance and drug companies do. They'll get the shaft in the healthcare restructuring. They certainly did when bean counting MBAs touting the cost savings of managed care took over. The government won't be any different.

So, Umami, would you say that overburdened is synonymous with poorly run? That's what I was getting at with my first post.

That's because there's such a big range. I know an anesthesiologist that makes 350k in Indiana. Plastic surgeons make a ton. Surgeons in general make a killing. That's why I said specialists do well. However GPs don't and a there's a shortage because of it. I'm just going by what I see and what I've been told. Definately not worth the amount of schooling and loans required. Certainly wouldn't make me want to go into the field. Doctors don't have the lobby power that insurance and drug companies do. They'll get the shaft in the healthcare restructuring. They certainly did when bean counting MBAs touting the cost savings of managed care took over. The government won't be any different.

So, Umami, would you say that overburdened is synonymous with poorly run? That's what I was getting at with my first post.

Compare apples to apples. We're talking about a surgeon here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsgnado1996

yes, but If my father didn't take patients that couldn't pay, my family would be broke. 70 percent of his surgeries do not pay out. Guys, I'd like some feedback on the hospital idea rather than nitpicking the details, if you wouldn't mind. All I know is that when I told my dad this he said "That would be awesome."

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"Originally posted by visualx: hey everyone, look at me. i call people poor though i make absolutely nothing; brag about my job as an intern or some ****; hate on people for not being fat like me; and absolutely never have any idea what i'm talking about, though i always have a ****ing righteous indignation with everything i say! aren't i ****ing amazing?! do you all like me yet?! oh, you know that hate is just a guise! good thing i have a ****ing amazing life! now let me go **** my fat girlfriend and cry myself to sleep"

For someone who's father is a physician, you don't understand disease processes. One does not simply acquire MS from stress, at least it's not known.

Sounds like an emotional appeal and I'm not biting. Doctors are notoriously overworked but certainly not underpaid unless there's extenuating circumstances that you're not revealing.

That's an inappropriate accusation to make, sir. I know MS is not directly caused by stress, Heck, my Dad Is suffering from it, you try to tell me I don't know what it is? Ridiculous. It is widely accepted that stress can be a major contributing factor to the development of MS. It was not an emotional appeal, just emphasizing how overworked he is.