On 8/04/2013 Ashfall tuff wrote:>Climbing i believe fosters an interest in N.P.s and bush regen. I recon>there needs to be some allowances made for youngsters learning to climb.>especially if they've been taken out by school or scouts, there may be>a liability/management concern. probably there are not enough climbers>to introduce a group of youngsters to trad climbing. >>In this region you know there's not much surf or snow but we got rock>:)

Hey Ashfall, I've been in contact with a few of the locals up there. Will be up that way with work. Might see you around.

I wouldn't get too bogged down in these crappy ethics debates though. Just remember that ultimately, debolters can undo someone's work alot easier than it can be done in the first place. Keeps things (a bit) honest.

So, be prepared to be able to retreat off a multipitch if you find a shiny anchor missing... or some other critical pre-placed bit of gear.

On 8/04/2013 Ashfall tuff wrote:>Climbing i believe fosters an interest in N.P.s and bush regen. I recon>there needs to be some allowances made for youngsters learning to climb.>especially if they've been taken out by school or scouts, there may be>a liability/management concern. probably there are not enough climbers>to introduce a group of youngsters to trad climbing. >>In this region you know there's not much surf or snow but we got rock>:)
Looking at the issue from a different angle, as a person who got into climbing largely for the adventure, I find it very hard to understand the desire to make everything safe. If a young climber feels that a particular climb is too risky, then let him build his skills on either easier or better protected climbs until he is more confident and competent.

Over the space of four decades I have taken many beginners out. (These were people who had expressed a desire to learn climbing, not scout groups or school groups where the impetus comes from the organisation). In all that time I had no need to place a single bolt and no one has had even a minor injury.

From a personal and slightly selfish point of view, as the first ascentionist of a number of climbs at Kaputar, it saddens me a little to see climbs from which I derived so much enjoyment (and sometimes fear) pacified so that other climbers are deprived of the full experience.

From time to time I have done some silly things on climbs and had some 'near misses' but I wouldn't have it any other way. Risk is part of life and no matter how much modern society strives to eliminate it, there will always be people who seek it out.

Anyway, I hear myself shifting gear from pompous to pontificating. When we climb together in the near future I hope we find that we are not altogether on opposite sides of the argument.

Your rules seem eminently sensible to me and I have made arrangements for a formal submission to the New England Climbers Ethics Committee. Regarding the beer-belly situation… I have a nice little pot and so far no-one on the ethics committee has been a rude enough to comment on it.

I will be in touch with you as soon as I have the Ethics Committee's decision.

the re-bolting at Lindsey looks sound to me, new routes look worthwhile. hangers & bolts glued, prob to ward of the grinder.

I think kap is going to get more popular regardless, prioritising for safety is important there because the damn road is narrow making it hard for an ambulance or rescue vehicle to get there.

To whom it may concern, thankyou for the early development of Kaputar peaks. please dont knock the upkeep of these routes - you can do the f.a. - fine, tho if your still laying claim to these routes... i worry you might be liable

On 15/04/2013 ashfall tuff wrote:>On 15/04/2013 Batey wrote:>>I can't work out if your in favour of retro bolting of routes or what>>Im just trying to be in favour of climbing, 'safe' sells and safe is safe.>although there must be a straightforward way to maintain the heritage of>our recreation

Really though, what is safe? Do you know if the bolts were installed correctly?

Check out this vid;

Now, if you climbed up to a bolt and the hanger was a little loose what would you think?Ahhh, its just a little loose, no sweat, I'll clip it because what could possible go wrong... What if you then pumped out and clipped directly into the bolt for a rest?

Someone once said to me the difference between Trad and Sport was where the responsibility for your personal safety lay. With Trad, you're directly responsible for your own protection while with Sport you're shifting that responsibility to the bolt equipper; and praying they're good! Obviously the belayer plays a large part too:-)

>>but saying the access to emergency services is bad therefore we should>>leave the bolts and replace ones that..........

>>Climbings dangerous. if you dont like the "risk"..........>>i'm concerned we could get banned because some strong climber with no>trad experience has an accident. or that some climbers made themselves>liable for fiddling with the protection.

It could be argued that 'strong' climbers should know their limits... By 'fiddling with protection' do you mean removing bolts? Why can't climbers be prepared to down climb if they get into trouble?

>these may not have been concerns of the 60's,70's 80's but the feeling>is different now i think

On 15/04/2013 ashfall tuff wrote:>Im just trying to be in favour of climbing, 'safe' sells and safe is safe.

No, safe is not safe, as has just been demonstrated in the Blueys by someone getting seriously jacked up seconding a route which Neil had safety-safed so that all the widdle climbers could be safe. This poignant and timely example completely disproves the shit which you are spinning, so please stop spinning it because it's shitting me to tears.

>i'm concerned we could get banned because some strong climber with no>trad experience has an accident. or that some climbers made themselves>liable for fiddling with the protection. >these may not have been concerns of the 60's,70's 80's but the feeling>is different now i think

Dude, you make no sense at all, I can't work out what's going on.

Are you.............................?;
a) two people posting from the same account, one of whom is cool and the other a pussy
b) cool when pissed, but a worrywart when sober (if so, please drink more before posting)
c) Just skipping the whole climbing thing, and moving straight on through to chocky trolling (if so, touche sir)

Like ODH I am puzzled. I thought perhaps the options are:
a) a geologist (not wanting to besmirch friends of mine who seem sensible and are also geologists)
b) Under 28 with a strong sense of self entitlement
c) a troll (and a successful one)
d) stupid (no logic in safety arguments)
e) a fan of Fight club (It is the only book I have ever burned, though could have done the same to some Irving Welsh)
f) all of the above.

On 15/04/2013 ashfall tuff wrote:>thats a very informative clip.>>i hope its common knowledge not to place outward force on bolts like that,

I thought properly placed bolts could take a fair outwards pull. Granted you wouldn't want to do it but they shouldn't 'fall' out by hand, or with minimal yanking like the vid. re the video, it's my understanding that similar bolts, placed in soft stone, will usually loosen with 'cyclic' loading (?). I may have misunderstood though can't find the discussion online. Neil, Mikl, other bolters, am I off base?

>we set gear mostly for downward force making it possible to fall out in>another direction.

??

>Are you arguing for bolting to be carried out by profesionals.

Not at all though I'd prefer numpties, like myself, to lay off bolting anything until they've been climbing long enough to understand just how easy it would be to kill someone by choosing the wrong equipment for the job, as shown in the vid. There's also the element of bolting an aesthetic line that climbs well, far enough away from trad lines to cause no issues:)

>could be true about placing the responsibility on the bolt equiper, and>maybe why their remaining anonymous.

But it shouldn't. A person decides to climb; you make your own choices; you own the responsibility and consequences that come with your decisions. Most bolters I know proudly display their details in guides, either in print or online.

>maybe we should name the route? that could work.... i was thinking; tinker,>taylor

What route are we naming?

>i recon its some1 thats posted on here.

Or the illuminati... :-)

>personally I would climb on these, test 1. i saw some1 take a fall. am>familiar with the brand of hanger, looks like conventional bolting to me.>can take pro too.

as the first ascenionist is not describing these new climbs maybe we should go and tick them, describe them.... anyone up for it??

IMO:
first ascenionists..... IF there intending for others to climb it - they need to give a reasonable description of the route. and if their bolting it the pro should be sound. i think thats pretty common sense. i dont think their responsible for upkeep of the bolts. dont take my word for it as i dont know of a precedent.. and i hope climbing does'nt need that.the rebolting fund and safer cliffs sound like proactive investments for the climbing community.

On 16/04/2013 ashfall tuff wrote:>i think im having a feeling of agreement. the anon. climbs are mentioned>on page 2 i think.>>i edited that post if it makes more sense now

You mean this bit?On 26/01/2013 ChossDog wrote:>Is it unusual that no-one has stuck out their neck on this thread to defend the bolting?

ashfall tuff ~> You seem to be the closest on this thread as you are a Narrabri local.

I found your reference to 60's 70's 80's, back on page two as well, but you have misinterpreted it.
For elaboration read my next comment lower in this post.

>as the first ascenionist is not describing these new climbs maybe we should go and tick them, describe them.... anyone up for it??

>IMO:>first ascenionists..... IF there intending for others to climb it - they need to give a reasonable description of the route. and if their bolting it the pro should be sound. i think thats pretty common sense. i dont think their responsible for upkeep of the bolts. dont take my word for it as i dont know of a precedent.. and i hope climbing does'nt need that.the rebolting fund and safer cliffs sound like proactive investments for the climbing community.

The closest I can decipher from your latest ramblings about FA'ists, describing routes, reclimb and name etc, is that perhaps you have bolted original climbs by mistake* because you did not know they were existing routes.
(*Giving you the benefit of the doubt here).

On 15/04/2013 ashfall tuff wrote:>its big bro you know. >>I've had posts wanting a partner up here... and all i get is a team of>buddy bolt cutters going to drive 5hrs plus to pull the pins... nevermind>going climbing

You must be miffed about not finding people to climb with, yet your posts prompt people to drive 5 hrs to chop bolts there instead of climbing with you.
Have you ever considered how miffed those driving the 5 hrs are, and more importantly why they feel the need to do that?

On another thread on 15/04/2013 ashfall tuff wrote:>there must be a straightforward way to maintain the heritage of our recreation

Yes. There is, and it is really simple. Leave trad and mixed climbs as you find them.

Post edit:
After re-reading all of your posts it seems you also have an interest in the local rescue group. Are you a member? Do they conduct training sessions at Kaputar?

On 15/04/2013 vwills wrote:>Like ODH I am puzzled. I thought perhaps the options are:>a) a geologist (not wanting to besmirch friends of mine who seem sensible>and are also geologists)>b) Under 28 with a strong sense of self entitlement>c) a troll (and a successful one)>d) stupid (no logic in safety arguments)>e) a fan of Fight club (It is the only book I have ever burned, though>could have done the same to some Irving Welsh)>f) all of the above.

I'm also really confused, but I vote for a mixture of B & D. And I agree wholeheartedly with E - one of few examples of crap book, great film.>>In what way are people "liable"for FAs.>>>>

>On 15/04/2013 ashfall tuff wrote:>>I've had posts wanting a partner up here... and all i get is a team of>>buddy bolt cutters going to drive 5hrs plus to pull the pins... nevermind>>going climbing.

Hi IdratherbeclimbingM9

I'm a little confused too. I met ashfall tuff briefly at the Beula Rock Festivus at Easter. He didn't strike me as a 'mad bolter'. As you can see from my previous posts there is quite a lot of 'wriggle room' between his and my positions on bolting. We have spoken on the telephone and I'm planning a trip from Armidale down to Kaputar in the near future to climb with him. Hopefully we can find some middle ground.

I like the idea of an Internet forum for discussion of this sort of topic but all too often the posts seem to create more heat than light. (Sorry about the cliche but it's the best I can do).

On 16/04/2013 Gov Junky wrote:>I'm a little confused too. I met ashfall tuff briefly at the Beula Rock>Festivus at Easter. He didn't strike me as a 'mad bolter'. As you can>see from my previous posts there is quite a lot of 'wriggle room' between>his and my positions on bolting. We have spoken on the telephone and I'm>planning a trip from Armidale down to Kaputar in the near future to climb>with him. Hopefully we can find some middle ground.>>I like the idea of an Internet forum for discussion of this sort of topic>but all too often the posts seem to create more heat than light. (Sorry>about the cliche but it's the best I can do).>>

I am sorry if you think I have made it difficult to negotiate within the wriggle room that you feel is available, but until ashfall tuff becomes a little clearer in his posts about his perception of what has happened at Kaputar, then all we (at a distance), are left with is replying to what we read (conjecture?) on an internet forum, ... and/or direct action*.
(*~> Which by the way for my interest, is the chopping of the retrobolting at Kaputar a foregone conclusion?)

Note: If it isn't clear already from my previous posts on Chockstone, I tend to be more in the 'Dangerouser Cliffs' camp than in the 'Safer Cliffs' camp, though I do see some middle ground in the 'grey areas'...
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