One thing I will have to change is none of his at-will powers can be used as a basic melee attack, so for Attacks of Opportunity he will miss constantly due to the low strength score, unless I switch out his feats to take the feat that would let me use his constitution score instead.

Yeah, there's a reason why Melee Training (use whatever stat you want for basic melee attacks) and Versatile Expertise (choose a weapon group and an implement type/group and gain +1 to hit per tier) are such often taken feats. And according to the WotC forums, why DMs often give them out for free (not that I'm suggesting such a thing here) - they're practically required feats for a lot of builds due to at times odd game design. Melee Training especially. There's a lot of Defender classes that will never use Strength.

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One thing I will have to change is none of his at-will powers can be used as a basic melee attack, so for Attacks of Opportunity he will miss constantly due to the low strength score, unless I switch out his feats to take the feat that would let me use his constitution score instead.

Yeah, there's a reason why Melee Training (use whatever stat you want for basic melee attacks) and Versatile Expertise (choose a weapon group and an implement type/group and gain +1 to hit per tier) are such often taken feats. And according to the WotC forums, why DMs often give them out for free (not that I'm suggesting such a thing here) - they're practically required feats for a lot of builds due to at times odd game design. Melee Training especially. There's a lot of Defender classes that will never use Strength.

Yeah, it is odd. Some classes actually have at-will powers that can be used as basic attacks, such as the Paladin. When they design a class whose core attributes are Constitution, Charisma and Wisdom, one would think they would take this into consideration. Oh well.

I am now at odds with which race to choose. I am taking a long look at going Dwarf, but then I also really like the idea of a changeling even tho his stats are not optimal for a Battlemind, he has interesting roleplaying potential. Some races just don't lend themselves well to roleplaying for me. Heck for versatility, I am even thinking about going human.

Oh! I just remembered: Doopri and kadnod have both said they're available every other Wednesday, but we haven't figured out if they're the same Wednesdays. Which dates in, say, July are you two free?

Quote from: Arkon on June 24, 2010, 11:57:30 AM

I will dig a bit more into the Battlemind class and see if I can't tweak the build a bit. My main concern is trying to learn the new mechanics that psionics entails.

When I was considering a Shardmind Telekinetic Psion, I saw psionic Power Points as a way to turn At-Will abilities into Encounter ones. Two PP per battle means you can boost two different powers or unleash one particularly strong attack, making them increasingly versatile as they gain levels, but thinking of them as Encounter powers helps bring them in line with the other classes.

I don't know if Battleminds are different. Monks are. They get regular Encounter powers like everybody else, but their At-Will powers can double as both movement and attack skills which allows them to flip out like amphetamine-crazed punch monkeys in every round. They need lots of support, though: they don't wear any real armor and their "Flurry of Blows" barrage requires enemies to take a swing at them.

Quote from: Lockdown on June 23, 2010, 09:25:33 PM

Arkon - Play the Battlemind! I also would love to hear how the psionics work out in 4e. And if you guys do aar's - I can at least read all about it.

(of course, not being a Halfling will gimp you beyond belief, as we ALL know halflings are the best race for every class in the entire game... but other than that - you should have tons of fun!)

You know, if we're playing biweekly, that means Lockdown would only have to miss one or two sessions before his schedule clears up in early August.

Rangrim - Dwarven Resilient Battlemind - His AoOs are gonna be weak to start with until level 2 when I can take another feat, but by taking Dwarven Weapon Training out of the gates, it gives me a high enough proficiency to buy and use a Craghammer, which is 1d10, Brutal(2) so it will never do less than 3 damage when it hits. He has the Dwarven Outcast background as he was shunned by his clan because they did not comprehend his psionic power and thought him to be insane.

Alain - Half-Elf Quick Battlemind - Will also have weak AoOs, is a former merchant who abused his psionic powers to improve his business, has decided to move on after authorities started to become suspicious from the numerous reports of customers not remembering why they bought what they did and assumed magic was behind it. His focus is more on being able to quickly move into the fray by use of his Speed of Thought ability which allows him to move up to 8 squares when rolling initiative.

Rangrim sounds like he's a tank you don't want to piss off. That's one heck of a starter weapon. But Alain being able to get directly into combat to begin with sounds just nasty. My only worry is that he might get in the way of my Wizard's powers (see below).

And I bring you Jett, a Genasi Stormsoul Wizard. He used to work as a guard for the Stone Crows, and stepped down when the calls went out that Heroes were needed. He's used to the easy life as a street/hut defender (or at least as easy as guard duty can be) and isn't exactly prepared for the true outside world.

And I finally got the chance to look over a few character builds posted already.

AA - your math is right, short of Intimidate. Should be 0 instead of 1. I'm also assuming you're going to be using a spear weapon instead of your fists (because of your Feat choice), right? While I know very little about the Monk, my quick check makes it seem like they work best bare-fisted. So I could be completely wrong here. Finally, you get 2 At-Will, 1 Encounter, and 1 Daily power at level. And the Encounter power Iron Mind doesn't show up in the latest registered version of the Character Creator.

Beyond that, it looks like a class that moves into combat, deals quite a lot of point blank damage, and then moves on before he can be hit back. Great concept, and looks like lots of fun.

Arnir - looks good, but I have a thought for you - since your riders for your powers are all Charisma based, it might be worth dropping your Strength by 2 so you can put in another point of Charisma. Either that or drop your Dex down by 2 and put it into Cha, because nobody has heard of a weakling Dwarf before.

Also, looking at your Daily choice, while it seems to be a good power (making an enemy roll twice to attack and forcing them to take the lower result is brilliant from a healer standpoint), Moment of Glory looks amazingly good if you sustain it. The Close Blast 5 combined with knocking targets away and off their feet is good enough (as it keeps them from doing much next round). Resist 5 sustained is just icing after that.

All in all, looks like some great allies to have around. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but reading through this thread it looks like we have 2 Strikers (AA and Doopri - Monk and Rogue as of last check), a Defender (Arkon - Battlemind), a Leader (Arnir - Cleric), and a Controller (myself - Wizard). Seems like a decently rounded group.

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In this case, Charisma is the primary stat (because it modifies your chances of hitting and damage), and Wisdom would be the 'rider' (as it's optional stat (you never use it for any attack rolls) and only modifies secondary effects). The secondary effect doesn't require a high stat, but it's nice to have. Odds are it won't be anywhere near as high as your primary stat though.

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Well, I think I am gonna go with Rangrim. I tried building 5 or 6 other race combinations and none of them were jumping out at me like Rangrim was. I will just have to use my feat at level two to get the ability to use a different stat for melee basic attacks.

Works for me! I'll update the original post with the proposed time....

Quote from: Destructor on June 25, 2010, 02:09:46 AM

And I finally got the chance to look over a few character builds posted already.

AA - your math is right, short of Intimidate. Should be 0 instead of 1.

Oops! Yes, you're right. I got all the other Charisma-based skills right except that one.

Quote from: Destructor on June 25, 2010, 02:09:46 AM

I'm also assuming you're going to be using a spear weapon instead of your fists (because of your Feat choice), right? While I know very little about the Monk, my quick check makes it seem like they work best bare-fisted.

Based on Page 63 of PHB 3, Monk unarmed strikes are off-hand attacks which can be made so long as they have one hand free. Spears are listed as "Versatile" weapons which allow them to be wielded one hand, so I believe that will allow me to use a spear for my "Five Storms" area attack, gaining the advantage of the longer reach granted by "Pointed Step Style" when it triggers "Centered Flurry of Blows," and otherwise make unarmed strikes for all my melee touch attacks.

If I'm misreading -- or wasting a feat that won't ever be used after a few levels -- I'd love more feedback! I'd much rather rejigger my abilities now than realize I've made some grave mistakes when I hit level 4....

Quote from: Destructor on June 25, 2010, 02:09:46 AM

Finally, you get 2 At-Will, 1 Encounter, and 1 Daily power at level. And the Encounter power Iron Mind doesn't show up in the latest registered version of the Character Creator.

Sorry for the confusion: I listed my Class Feature ("Centered Flurry of Blows") and my Racial Feature ("Iron Mind") as At-Will and Encounter powers because that's how they're used. For clarity, my chosen two At-Wills are "Dancing Cobra" and "Five Storms," and my one Encounter ability is "Drunken Monkey."

"Iron Mind" is listed on Page 8 of PHB 3:

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Iron Mind -- Githzerai Racial PowerUnder the brunt of an attack, you use the power of your mind to fortify yourself against harm.

Encounter - Immediate Interrupt - Personal

Trigger: You are hit by an attack.

Effect: You gain a +2 bonus to all defenses until the end of your next turn.

Okay, I updated the original post with the start date, put in links to the character stats everyone's been posting, and fixed the error in my Intimidate skill. You guys can edit your original messages if anything changes, or if you post a new character sheet, I'll just update the links.

In this case, Charisma is the primary stat (because it modifies your chances of hitting and damage), and Wisdom would be the 'rider' (as it's optional stat (you never use it for any attack rolls) and only modifies secondary effects). The secondary effect doesn't require a high stat, but it's nice to have. Odds are it won't be anywhere near as high as your primary stat though.

Okay, I wanted to check because with my original build, I didn't think that any of the riders used charisma. I thought they were all wisdom based. I'll check later when I'm back in the hacienda.

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Autistic Angel - sorry about the power messups there. And I was even using the CC at the time and didn't notice that. Whoops.

And I'd never think of using a spear with one hand (as you'd get a lot more leverage with two) but that wouldn't be the first oddity one could find with the rules as written. I know I read once on the WotC forums that there's a PP or Epic power that allows you to wield and use all two handed ranged weapons with one hand. How does that work with a bow?

Long story short - I do think that'll work. Note to self - stay away from you in melee.

Arnir - I think I'm right anyway as far as the riders go. Keep in mind that I haven't exactly looked at Cleric powers further down the line, so I could be completely wrong as far as what riders you might use later on.

FYI - now the creator is saying that you're overloaded/slowed with just what you have now (check the Shop - Equipment screen). I guess Strength does have its uses. Sorry.

Also, that looks like a great healing/prevention build.

Arkon - sounds good. I look forward to seeing this in action.

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Thanks for casting votes so quickly, folks. Seems like Empire! is in the lead, so lets go with that. I'll start fleshing out the setting and will hopefully have something a bit more detailed posted by the weekend.

As promised, I wrote up a bit more on the game setting. It's definitely not necessary to read it all if you're not interested. The short version is you're all in a small tribe of bandit/refugees called the Stone Crows and your entire civilization was all beat to crap by a group of rampaging dragons that up and vanished about a decade ago.

For centuries, your homeland was the mightiest empire in the known world. Ruled by a great council of ancient dragons, the nation of Osradin knew no match in learning or military might. Its arcane academies uncovered the secrets of the universe while its mighty dragonborn armies defended the country from threats from outside and within. Although foreigners often grumbled that the people of Osradin were no more than pampered slaves, toiling for the benefit of their cold-blooded masters, no one else enjoyed the levels of peace, safety and prosperity that were commonplace in Osradin for generations.

That all changed 22 years ago. In the beginning, the decisions of Osradin’s draconic rulers took a cruel and capricious turn. Heards of livestock were slaughtered at random, then entire villages were relocated to inhospitable locales, and finally hundreds of seemingly loyal citizens were executed by dragonfire as enemies of the state. No explanations were given for these draconian orders and fear flourished across the land. Thousands of refugees began to flee to the barbaric nations of the North, now terrified of the leaders who had cared for them for generations. Some dragonborn generals began to speak of revolution, while others claimed the odd behavior of their masters was simply a test of loyalty. Civil war quickly spread throughout the land. The damage it caused to the fields and farmlands caused a horrible plague. It was thought that nearly a third of Osradins had died by sword, disease, famine or flame. Things only got worse from there.

After a year of madness, the dragon-kings of Osradin began to rampage as one, turning on civilians and soldiers alike. This dragonflight spared no city or village. Neither loyalist nor rebel was shown any mercy. Any citizen who attempted to communicate with their former rulers met with irrefutable, and often fatal, failure. Rumors began to spread that the nations of the North would try to intervene, but the dragons soon turned their sights on those lands as well. For a decade, the mad, unconquerable dragonflight raged throughout the world, annihilating any vestige of civilization in their path.

Then one day, it simply ended.

After ten years of rampant destruction, the sun took on an eerie blue hue. The shattered nation of Osradin knew an unceasing blue daylight for over a week. The sun then finally set, returning to normal the next morn. No dragon has been seen since. Some claim the dragonflight was finally defeated by the tiefling tyrants of Rakkima, others that it was removed to the heavens by the draconic gods Bahamut and Tiamat. Whatever the truth behind their disappearance, the vanishing of the dragons finally allowed the few surviving people of Osradin to emerge from the shadows.

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It’s been over a decade since the dragonflight disappeared. The survivors of Osradin have been reduced to a rabble of squabbling tribes. Many tribes were founded by the remnants of Osradin’s once mighty dragonborn armies, but others were cobbled together bands of fleeing refugees. Your tribe falls into the latter group. When the dragonflight began, your people fled the city of Tiam-Krey to a series of nearby hills. There you encountered a group of infamous Golaith bandits. The leader of these rogues, the notorious Kavak the Quick, realized that the complete collapse of civilization made banditry a decidedly less profitable endeavor. He welcomed the refugees, hoping their divergent skill sets would help his own survival. He guided your people through a network of hidden passages in the hills and mountains, successfully fleeing from the dragonflight whenever they appeared. Over the years, the line between bandit and refugee slowly blurred, until finally your tribe, the Stone Crows, was all that remained.

Since the dragons vanished, Kavak has had some success in providing for the welfare of the tribe. Initial attempts to resettle in the burned out remnants of Tiam-Krey failed spectacularly, as the packs of ghouls that now call it home forced your tribe to flee. Instead you’ve remained a nomadic presence in the area, staying in the hills in the summer, leading your flocks of hearty black sheep south in the winter, and clashing with other tribes year round. Life has not been simple. Your enemies are fierce and numerous. Still, after years on the run, your people have finally found a small measure of peace and security.

(non-player) Persons of note:

Spoiler for Hiden:

Kavak the Quick: The one-eyed leader of your tribe is unusually crafty for a goliath. Although he never backs down from a challenge, he knows that discretion and stealth are often the better part of valor. Many an enemy tribe expecting a head-on confrontation with the Stone Crows have found themselves alone on the battlefield, returning home to find both their herds and their coffers dangerously diminished. Old age has begun to take its toll on Kavak’s body, but not his devious mind, and he remains feared, if not always respected, by the leaders of the other tribes in the area.

Kavouri: Kavak’s teenage daughter gave the tribe its name when she was just a child. As the tribe fled from a massive horde of ghouls surging out of Tiam-Krey , her father was pulled down by the rampaging cannibals. Kavouri turned, screamed at the monsters and flew into the fray. Many who witnessed this claimed a massive flock of impossibly large crows appeared out of the fog and struck alongside her, allowing other members of the tribe time to pull Kavak to safety. Others claim the ghouls were simply startled to see a screaming eight-year-old girl charge at them with a morningstar. Either way, Kovouri has shown a strange connection to the goddess known as the Raven Queen ever since that day. Her unsettling, divine powers have served the Stone Crows well.

“Thunder” John Farmer: Although human, John Farmer stands taller than many of the goliaths in the tribe. Always at the front of any battle, John’s years on the run from the dragonflight transformed him from gentle farmboy to deadly berserker. It is assumed by many that he will be the next leader of the Crows, although some whisper his brash ways would make him an unsuitable leader.

Misa: This small dragonborn tinker joined the Crows only three years ago. She claims to have fled from abuse at the Five Fangs tribe, but if they want her back, they certainly haven’t said anything. Inqusitive and handy, Misa seldom joins the rest of the Crows on raids, but is always on hand to fix up weapons and other gear the tribe so relies on. She has also shown some skill with alchemy, but complains that she could do much more if only she was supplied with a proper laboratory.

Other local tribes:

Spoiler for Hiden:

Five Fangs: The Five Fangs are the remnants of the Fifth Cohort of the old Osradin army. These dragonborn are known as cruel to the weak, but honorable in their negotiations. Although they have agreed not to raid Crow encampments, they have challenged your tribe to open battle over hunting and grazing rights several times over the years. Although Kavak is usually able to avoid open conflict through a combination of diplomacy and deception, battles have been fought and the Fangs have proven victorious just as often as not.

Grey Mist: Another tribe that started out as a group of refugees fleeing Tiam-Krey, the Grey Mist were under the protection of a powerful illusionist known as Arjahn the Grey for years. Although Arjahn was slain in the last days of the dragonflight, many of the Mists share his talent for illusion. They generally avoid open conflict with other tribes and have been known to trade venison and hides with the Crows.

Rivermen: The Rivermen have fallen on hard times. This human tribe was quite prosperous, but settled too close to Tiam-Krey. During an eclipse, a massive horde of ghouls raided their settlement, slaying or capturing about half of their people. The Five Fangs followed up with a raid of their own, ravaging the Rivermen even further. This troubled tribe have since followed the Bahum River south, hoping to find luck further away from the city. Rumor has it they’re thinking about joining forces with a powerful new tribe in the south.

The Ghouls of Tiam-Krey: While not technically a tribe, the ravening hordes of Tiam-Krey are ever hungry. They fear to be out of their ruined home during they daylight, but show no mercy once the sun descends. At one point, it was easy to keep beyond the range of these cannibals. However, in recent years they’ve deployed a wide variety of undead mounts, allowing them to reap their deadly harvest over much greater distances.

edit - I'm still trying to decide on the software I want to use, but I'm leaning towards Maptool + Iplay4e to keep track of character info. I'll try to have a final decision on this in a few days.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 12:24:41 AM by kadnod »

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edit - I'm still trying to decide on the software I want to use, but I'm leaning towards Maptool + Iplay4e to keep track of character info. I'll try to have a final decision on this in a few days.

FYI - as mentioned elsewhere, we did have serious lag and updating issues with Maptool by the time we ended every week. Why we switched to Fantasy Grounds. However, if you're just using Maptool to move tokens around and visualize line of sight (we were using it for full dice rolls with modifiers via macros, HP tracking, the works), I'm guessing it'll work a lot better.

Now, I don't know of the full capabilities of iPlay4e, but a quick glance (from a link somebody tossed around back on the first page somewhere) shows it's quite powerful. I'm assuming you'll have all our characters loaded up and do the dice rolls from your end (and we'll all have our own versions to look at as it offers a direct link to the Compendium for power listings as such)?

If so, I think this will work quite well and be tons of fun.

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The leader of these rogues, the notorious Kavak the Quick, realized that the complete collapse of civilization made banditry a decidedly less profitable endeavor.

LOL

And I have to say, that after reading through your history and such, I really like your level of detail and storytelling prowess. And we haven't even started.

I'll make some slight adjustments on my listed bio and overall character info in the upcoming days to go more in line with what you have listed.

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FYI - as mentioned elsewhere, we did have serious lag and updating issues with Maptool by the time we ended every week. Why we switched to Fantasy Grounds. However, if you're just using Maptool to move tokens around and visualize line of sight (we were using it for full dice rolls with modifiers via macros, HP tracking, the works), I'm guessing it'll work a lot better.

Yes, that's pretty much what I'm leaning towards right now. If it turns out to be a lag fest or we run into other weird tech issues, I'll definitely give FG another look.

Quote

Now, I don't know of the full capabilities of iPlay4e, but a quick glance (from a link somebody tossed around back on the first page somewhere) shows it's quite powerful. I'm assuming you'll have all our characters loaded up and do the dice rolls from your end (and we'll all have our own versions to look at as it offers a direct link to the Compendium for power listings as such)?

That's right, too. If anyone with the Character Builder and a Gmail account wants to load up their own characters, I've already set up a campaign entry. Here it is. Just PM me with your gmail address and I'll give you access to add PCs to the campaign.

Anybody without the CB or a Gmail account, don't sweat it. I'll add your PC into the system myself once we get closer to playday.

Quote

And I have to say, that after reading through your history and such, I really like your level of detail and storytelling prowess. And we haven't even started. .

Thanks!

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Question: I am working with the un-updated version of the character generator. I think it's like a demo version. Am I stuck with that version unless I pay for an Insider subscription?

I believe so. I think you could get a one month sub, download an update for the CB (and pick up the monster builder + whatever Dungeon or Dragon articles you might want), then cancel the subscritpion, but I haven't tried it myself.

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Question: I am working with the un-updated version of the character generator. I think it's like a demo version. Am I stuck with that version unless I pay for an Insider subscription?

I believe so. I think you could get a one month sub, download an update for the CB (and pick up the monster builder + whatever Dungeon or Dragon articles you might want), then cancel the subscritpion, but I haven't tried it myself.

Confirmed in both parts. All you need to do is pay for one month and you'll get the fully updated CB (which never goes bad - you just won't get further monthly updates), be able to download all the art (if you're into that), all the Dragon and Dungeon magazines (same), and be able to grab and update anything you want to. At least until the end of your sub.

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Thanks to Arkon, I now have an updated character builder. Thanks, buddy!

Another question for you subscribers: Does the subscription you pay for give you access to an "online version" of all the books? Just curious.

Not exactly. Between the character builder and rules compendium, DDI subscribers have access to nearly all the rules from all the books. You don't get actual electronic copies of the books, though. So, no monster descriptions, setting descriptions or other "fluff" type stuff without the books.

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i should have my character up soon (next few days! sorry ive been lazy!). ill give some of the background stuff a look then too. and yup, i saw the 7/7 start date that works fine for me - 8pm est ya?also maptool seems to be fine now. i think one of the problems (and this started happening A LOT in some of the LFR games i played using it) is that those "uber" tokens people would make, running extremely complicated token / macro systems and multiple libraries, just devoured resources. so kadnod i dont know how much you looked into using things like library tokens or the preconstructed "token systems" but id stay away from them.