Pages

Right up front, I want to say that I have always said that these rankings mean nothing, as they are unscientific and ancedotal. I don't believe these numbers are necessarily accurate; to be honest, January to March's ratings were not what I expected.

WotC at 1st, Paizo at 2nd, all rankings at the exact same place as last quarter. What surprises me is that there was next to nothing released in that quarter: Fortune Cards and Gamma World: Legion of Gold. Some reasons are given: " ... D&D's coterie of one-game stores (meaning only D&D is sold there), relative strength in the book channel, and organized play allowing it to still hold a lead over-all. That helps D&D overcome the stronger Pathfinder product schedule, which is swinging the balance in favor of the Paizo line in more stores that carry both." www.icv2.com/articles/news/20174.html

Top 5 Roleplaying Games – Q1 2011

Title

Publisher

1

Dungeons & Dragons

Wizards of the Coast

2

Pathfinder

Paizo Publishing

3

Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch

Fantasy Flight Games

4

Dragon Age

Green Ronin Publishing

5

Mutants and Masterminds, inc. DC

Green Ronin Publishing

Thoughts? Can we stop caring about Icv2 (even if there is another tie)?

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

Warhammer 3e RPG is a very fun game. However it is also not very popular over here at all. I own most of the books for it and have yet to be able to run a proper campaign because no one wants to give it a shot. They prefer PF or 4e and are afraid to move away from that.

The RPG industry has become a very large pool, but only a few large fish. The vast majority are one-product pufferfish that look really impressive in initial sales but no sustainable market. WotC is the biggest fish in the pool (and likely always will be), and athfinder has done a very good job of maintaining second place.

Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:

Three Basic Rules (p 11)

Power Types and Usage (p 54)

Skills (p178-179)

Feats (p 192)

Rest and Recovery (p 263)

All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)

A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.

2011 Q11st-D&D (WotC); 2nd-Pathfinder (Paizo); 3rd-Rogue Trader (FFG); 4th-Dragon Age (Green Ronin); 5th Mutants & Masterminds (FFG)"And in RPGs, WotC’s Dungeons & Dragons and Paizo’s Pathfinder continue to duke it out, with D&D's coterie of one-game stores, relative strength in the book channel, and organized play allowing it to still hold a lead over-all. That helps D&D overcome the stronger Pathfinder product schedule, which is swinging the balance in favor of the Paizo line in more stores that carry both."

Here's my analysis based on the scant data I see.

Pathfinder had a huge initial boost when the game was initially released at the end of 2009. The Core Books sold very well, and since D&D didn't have any core books out, its sales slumped, but the success of venues like D&D Encounters and the fact that it could be in more stores because it had a better distribution network, kept it in first. The nadir for D&D was Q3 2010 when Paizo released its Advanced Guide series, and D&D had relatively little (Psionic Power was the big release).

Since then, D&D has regained its position, though Pathfinder is firlmly in control of the second spot. Pathfinder's sales are concentrated in a few stores, while D&D's are spread out among many more stores. So it's not surprising that Pathfinder might tie or exceed D&D sales in specific stores yet not outsell D&D overall. Moreover, D&D has turned to a more relaxed release rate, about every other month, rather than one per month. D&D seems to be shifting to a tortoise approach to Paizo's hare.

My guess is that unless Paizo can come up with another product that generates as much excitement as its corebooks or the Advanced Guides, that Q3 2010 will be seen as both an aberration and as the high point of Pathfinder's popularity. If Pathfinder can come up with another product like that, then Pathfinder could conceivably top D&D again in a quarter.

Other analysis:What the hell happened to White Wolf Game Studios?! It disappeared off the map at the end of 2009. From 1996-2002, White Wolf Game Studios was the game company that was challenging Wizards for top spot in RPGs. It used to brag a 25% market share for years, with highs near 40%, which would have been close to tying D&D at the time. Looks like CCP has killed what was once a RPG powerhouse.

I wonder what would happen if you combined the numbers for Fantasy Flight Games. They have two games in the top 5 every quarter.

For the foreseeable future, I see 1st place belonging to Wizards, 2nd to Paizo, and 3rd to Fantasy Flight Games, with smaller groups like FASA, Green Ronin and the ocassional upstart popping onto the last spot.

What the hell happened to World of Darkness?! It disappeared off the map at the end of 2009. From 1996-2002, White Wolf Game Studios was the game company that was challenging Wizards for top spot in RPGs. It used to brag a 25% market share for years, with highs near 40%, which would have been close to tying D&D at the time. Looks like CCP has killed what was once a RPG powerhouse.

From what I heard, mismanaged on the same scale as TSR: too many competing products too close to one another; vampire, werewolf, mage, changeling, geist, hunter, mummy, angels, trinity, aberrant, scion, and so on...

What the hell happened to White Wolf Game Studios?! It disappeared off the map at the end of 2009. From 1996-2002, White Wolf Game Studios was the game company that was challenging Wizards for top spot in RPGs. It used to brag a 25% market share for years, with highs near 40%, which would have been close to tying D&D at the time. Looks like CCP has killed what was once a RPG powerhouse.

Shortly after CCP took them over, they have gone heavily to a PDF and print-on-demand schedule. Many of the first run core books are still available in print because the first print runs were to large, and they are not sold out yet. For the New World of Darkness, they published too much too fast and really have nothing left to do (in particular with the new Werewolf). Exalted 2nd Edition (and by relation, Scion) have a clunky system for iniatiave and way, way too much stuff that didn't get caught by the editor (as in, people complain about D&D errata, well, for Exalted the errata is 3 times as large, for just the one core book.)

They are still putting out books for WoD, but much slower. About one per 3 months. They are getting ready to roll out an anniversary edition of Vampire: The Masquerade and they have recently redone the website (so it no longer sucks). CCP is pushing the development of a MMORPG based on the Old World of Darkness (focusing on Vampire, I'd gather, to take advantage of the Twi-Hards) and taking the current WoD to a more digital format.

So, they are not dead, not at all. If they are tracking sales ranks by in-store dead tree book sales, they would not show up much since 2009, cause after that they took to selling PDFs via DriveThru RPG and apparently doing quite well that way (much to Wizards chagrin, I'm sure). Many of the books this last 2 years have in fact been PDF only, with a print-on-demand option.

No one wins in the Edition Wars. The whole hobby loses.
Wizards did not lose me as a DDI subscriber with the Online CB, they lost me long before that. And I have let my Herald Level GM Status lapse after 8 years. Wizards lack of support and the Edition Wars Trolls that are poorly moderated just managed to take all the fun out of public events.
~~ KT

I don't know that the ranks are based only on in-store. They interviewed retailers. Presumably, that could include Drive Thru RPG and other on-line retailers. ICv2 isn't a blogger -- it's an industry magazine for the hobby industry, which the industry seems to think is fairly reliable. They also track toy sales, much of which occurs through online retailers, so I imagine the data they gather includes online sales.

I don't know that the ranks are based only on in-store. They interviewed retailers. Presumably, that could include Drive Thru RPG and other on-line retailers. ICv2 isn't a blogger -- it's an industry magazine for the hobby industry, which the industry seems to think is fairly reliable. They also track toy sales, much of which occurs through online retailers, so I imagine the data they gather includes online sales.

Your link doesn't state that WWGS is doing quite well with online sales. Do you have evidence that ICv2 is undercounting online sales or that WWGS is doing quite well that way?

They stated in a thread on their website forums that the online-only sales they generate via DriveThru RPG is not counted by most industry surveys and that they are making a profit on them. They did not say how much profit, ot what specific surveys. Much like Wizards, they keep mum on specific details (and I'd expect them to).

I can't find the thread right now, and have to head to class, so I'll try and find it when I get back and edit this post with a link.

No one wins in the Edition Wars. The whole hobby loses.
Wizards did not lose me as a DDI subscriber with the Online CB, they lost me long before that. And I have let my Herald Level GM Status lapse after 8 years. Wizards lack of support and the Edition Wars Trolls that are poorly moderated just managed to take all the fun out of public events.
~~ KT

Interesting. Paizo seems to be gaining market shares. Distribution looks like the nerve of the war.

I wonder if store owners will switch brand since Paizo has more products, thus stores can make more money out of them.

I agree that it's a battle of WotC's greater-market-penetration vs. Paizo's greater-product-depth. WotC wins when more stores and new players get into RPGs, since D&D is usually the first RPG people get into. Paizo wins when players invest deeply into their line, buying not just Ultimate Magic, but Golarian's Guide to Gnomes as well. In short, Paizo's success comes from selling a lot of different products to a smaller audience, whereas WotC sells a lot of copies of a few product to a larger audience. Ultimately, which business plan comes out on top may determine the direction of RPGs for the future.

One of the reasons I think these rankings aren't meaningful is because of the on-line sales. WotC has DDI, which collects all the crunch of the books together, which cuts into book sales. Paizo is a book/game/mini seller, who not only makes the Pathfinder line, but also sells it directly to the consumer on a subscription package with discounted prices.

Both business models certainly hose the Brick and Mortar Store, but as the article mentioned, WotC has made some effort to support the FLGS with the Encounters Program and the early release policy for Premier stores.

So, to answer your question, I think there's potential to recreate the d20 boom with the large library of Paizo products. However, beyond the universal worry of any businessman ("Will my customers purchase it?"), there's the worry that they'll buy the Core books, go on-line and discover the sweet subscription rates, and watch Paizo.com lure away hardcore buy-everything customers away from their store.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

FWIW I remember (though have no source) for an interview with a high end muck-i-muck at CCP/WW. The gist of the statements made were that PnP RP is dead, that it's a lumbering dinosaur, and all it's good for are the IP's to create cash cow computerized MMORPG's that peopl will beat to death with their credit cards.

That's paraphrased of course. I know it sounds like I'm adding judgement, but the person (wish I could remember the guys name) really was very doom and gloom.

so I think that WW has chosen to slumpf off. It's self directed changes in strategic focus. We'll see how well it works out for them.

I imagine that Majestic Moose plays a more "A team" type game than most of us. By that I mean he allows his players to make tanks out of a backyard playground set since the players have more "fun" that way.

When I and my friends sit down we want a game of heroic fantasy. Rare is the moment when I have cried out in a video game or RPG "that's unrealistic." (Unless there is no jump button. Seriously makes me mad, single handedly ruined the N64 zelda series for me, but that's a digression of a digression.)
I mean, we play games with the force in galaxies far, far away, with supernatural horrors, dragons and demi-gods, alternate cosmologies, etc.
Reality and it's effects hold little sway to what makes a Heroic fantasy game fun IMO.
Just repeat after me:
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake.
You are not how much you've spent on WotC products.
You are not whatever RPG you play.
You are one of tens of thousands of people that spend money on a hobby.
You will not always get what you want

Well... over the last few months, I've bought a few WoD books and PDFs. Can't remember when I bought BESM d20, or Slayers d20... And I'll probably buy the Pathfinder book(s) purely because that way I don't have to keep borrowing somebody else's.At the moment, I doubt I'll be buying any more 4e books. I have all I need or want. Well, until somebody starts a 4e game near me that has people in it that I want to play rpgs with.Until then... I don't really care what WotC does. I certainly don't care about sales figures. I'll play what I like regardless of how popular it is. And I'll play what the people I like to play rpgs with do. Sorry to be, perhaps, negative, but DMing Encounters last week was a truly horrible experience.

Number fluctuate but I think DDI has around 50K member which implies a revenue stream of around 3.5 million per year. Alot of WoD players I know tend to use old books as well. It would be like a large chunk (most?) D&D players sticking with 2nd ed. I have only been to one gamestore (comics actually) in the last 3 years and it was full of 4th ed and Pathfinder stuff.

The new WoD, that's what. We used to have an enthusiastic WoD community here, but no one liked the new WoD.

Except WWGS remained in the top five RPGs until the 4th quarter of 2009. The New World of Darkness was released arond 2006. So even with the NWoD, WWGS could achieve the top 5. Something happened in 2009.

3e was the most popular edition of D&D. And the core books continue to sell well use on Amazon. There's little surprise that a game that's essentially a reprint with errata would do well. And there's probably a large overlap of players and customers of both companies.

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available:

Sorry to be, perhaps, negative, but DMing Encounters last week was a truly horrible experience.

Please, elaborate.

The folks in the shop lumbered me with people who just didn't want to play. They didn't listen, and were generally disruptive. They were Yugioh players and to be honest, they gave every impression that that's what they wanted to be doing. I tried to get them interested. I really did.Oh, and they rolled really badly. As in they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. From the inside. Killing them would have been easy. And boring for all of us.The one good thing is that I didn't have to pay for the evening session as a result.

I've heard that locally as well. Is that Warhammer game hard to buy? One of them sold out very fast IIRC and is hard to find.

I don't know. I didn't have any trouble buying it myself, but then I live in a major megapolis with many gaming stores. Still, I bought most of it (I own every WFRPG 3e product published except for the players guide and DM guide, as those guides are little more than compilations of the information present in card format placed into book format) via amazon. In fact, I only bought the core box and omens of war from a physically existing store. It is an expensive game to buy. The core box costs about 100$ on its own. But, in my opinion, it is well worth the price. It has quickly become my favorite RPG. It is surprisingly amazing, and its rules as written do an awesome job at fostering a narrative heavy game; something that might not be what many people expect due to its rich composition of gamey pieces. In actual play, those gamey pieces serve primarily to speed up play and prep time (at the cost of making the game a slow one to set up and clean up after). In fact, I can only think of one negative thing to say about the game--FFG really needs to hire better editors. Still, there are no print errors so terrible that they make it impossible to understand what the game is trying to say, and the game overall has much less errata than 4e, so its not that big of a deal.

The folks in the shop lumbered me with people who just didn't want to play. They didn't listen, and were generally disruptive. They were Yugioh players and to be honest, they gave every impression that that's what they wanted to be doing. I tried to get them interested. I really did.Oh, and they rolled really badly. As in they couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. From the inside. Killing them would have been easy. And boring for all of us.The one good thing is that I didn't have to pay for the evening session as a result.

The folks in the shop lumbered me with people who just didn't want to play.

Huh?

The one good thing is that I didn't have to pay for the evening session as a result.

and OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!

For all the times you might have been sour about 4E before, I forgive you. I had no idea that the above was part of your gaming environment.

Not only does the shop where you play shanghai people into playing so they can keep their premiere store status, but they charge you for the "privelege" of running the event FOR THEM?!?! (and, I must assume, if this the case, that they also charge the players to participate?)

Find a new store, I beg of you. Roleplay in some place that is not a toxic environment where they beat you over the head with the fact that they don't care about you any further than your wallet extends (while I understand that game stores are a business, most make some pretense that they like and appreciate their customers and the volunteers who run games for them).

I love WFRP, but like a few others have mentioned on this thread I have a hard time getting people to want to play it. When they released Signs of Faith I tried to get it from one of the local stores (I usually Amazon everything) and was told that they don't carry that product line, it's a product that has a select few customers who will generally special order it through the store if they want it. They said they'd had a problem with it sitting on the shelf when they ordered more than that.

Now, that's completely anectdotal. But when it's combined with my own experience, that I can't find anyone who wants to even take it for a test drive, I think it just might be true. Maybe it's a game system more for collectors than actual players? I certainly have every RPG book FFG has ever produced. I know there are people who actually play the game, I'm just, unfortunately, not one of them despite owning all the product line.

Yea. RPGs only work when you like the group you play with. Any RPG, no matter how good it is, will only be as fun as your group allows it to be.

Luckily I seem to have stumbled into a good gaming environment. I have access to a number of people who like RPGs, and are more than willing to try different games. Of the four other people in my group, only two had ever tried WFRPG 3e before, and they had only played a single quest. However, everyone was interested in giving it a run, and I am having a massive amount of fun running it for them.

What all this anecdotal evidence means, I have no idea. WFRPG 3e was in the top 5 best sellers list from 2009 to Q3 2010 with the exception of Q3 2009. That is 5 quarters of the last 8 quarters in which it sold in 2nd (only once) or 3rd (more commonly) place. Someone out there has to be buying and playing it... but then, there are many times in my life when I have found it difficult to find anyone playing RPGs in my area at all, so its always hard to find a group for a specific game other than the top seller (D&D).

Perhaps try and find a Pathfinder or 4e D&D group online, and then, after some time playing with them and getting to know them, when it feels like a few of the players might be getting a little burnt out on 4e D&D, suggest Warhammer? That is how I ended up with a group to play WFRPG 3e with.

No one wins in the Edition Wars. The whole hobby loses.
Wizards did not lose me as a DDI subscriber with the Online CB, they lost me long before that. And I have let my Herald Level GM Status lapse after 8 years. Wizards lack of support and the Edition Wars Trolls that are poorly moderated just managed to take all the fun out of public events.
~~ KT

For all the times you might have been sour about 4E before, I forgive you. I had no idea that the above was part of your gaming environment.

Not only does the shop where you play shanghai people into playing so they can keep their premiere store status, but they charge you for the "privelege" of running the event FOR THEM?!?! (and, I must assume, if this the case, that they also charge the players to participate?)

It's not quite that bad. I didn't have to pay to run it, indeed, I made it clear that if I did I wouldn't.They recently changed the way things work - until last month you could pay so much a month and stuff was free, or pay for everything separately. It was a good deal. Now... But yes, you do have to pay to play Encounters.The fact is that, where I am, Encounters has been dying on its arse since Dark Sun. There have been weeks where, if there were two players plus the DM - that was a good week. There have been weeks where it hasn't happened. I got fed up of playing in it. And as the guy who'd been running it wanted to play for once, I agreed to swap with him.For me, the evening session is the one that matters because it's with my friends. That too I'd have to pay for if I didn't run Encounters. The problem is finding somewhere else. If we could do that... The only other option would be to do what we do with WoD and have it in someone's house, because there isn't another local game shop.It's a pity because it used to be... better.

Is it really that odd to pay for space - whether directly or indirectly (by buying products in the shop)? Space does cost money, and so do the people overseeing the shop. I know my local FLAG is seriously considering not allowing RPGs to be played anymore in his shop, since 90% of the players buy their books on-line (if at all) and he can use the space much better for card games like Magic since they at least always spend money when they are gaming.

I have no objection to paying for space. I'm a little... less than happy about the cost going up, but hey, everything's going up. I bought all my 4e books from there. I bought my WoD book from there - I would have bought my VtR book from there but they didn't have it. I buy my manga from there - when they can get it in. The amount of stuff I'm waiting for... And it seems a bit random as to what I'm waiting for too. (They got vols 1 to 3 of Gunsmith Cats Burst, but not 4. They got 5, but what's the point in getting it without volume 4?)Edit: I just remembered speaking to the lass who runs the place about five months ago and she was wondering why all the RPGers had drifted away...

I am just very pleased that Paizo is keeping pace with Wizards. Competition will generally spur a company to do better. Ryan Dancey's dream of not having D&D in the hands of one company is in full bloom!

I am just very pleased that Paizo is keeping pace with Wizards. Competition will generally spur a company to do better. Ryan Dancey's dream of not having D&D in the hands of one company is in full bloom!

We don't know that. WotC could be outselling Paizo 10-1 and Paizo could still be in second place. Rankings without specific numbers don't say a lot.

I am just very pleased that Paizo is keeping pace with Wizards. Competition will generally spur a company to do better. Ryan Dancey's dream of not having D&D in the hands of one company is in full bloom!

We don't know that. WotC could be outselling Paizo 10-1 and Paizo could still be in second place. Rankings without specific numbers don't say a lot.

They where tied a few quaters ago, so that's not true.

However, we don't know how many people do "Rule compendium + DDI". So WoTC can still be pretty far ahead.

List of no-action attacks.Dynamic vs Static BonusesPhalanx tactics and buildsCrivens! A Pictsies GuideGood
Powers to intentionally miss withMr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticedWay's to fire around cornersCrits: what their really worthRetroactive bonus vs Static bonus.Runepriest handbook & discussion threadHoly Symbols to hang around your neckWays to Gain or Downgrade ActionsList of bonuses to saving throwsThe Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.