Contrary to Deb A's posting, glutamic acid (glutamate) is one of the 20 amino acids making up proteins/enzymes in nature. It is also the most common neurotransmitter in the brain. While glutamate is in MSG, glutamate does not equal MSG. It is not one of the essential amino acids so our bodies do make it from the raw materials of our typical diets (we are glutamate producers)

I am a vegetarian and to Carol H I say that I eat nutritional yeast (yum!) yet I do not make the claim that humans are not meant to eat meat, quite the contrary. I do not eat meat because of the way the vast majority of it leads to horrible environmental impacts. Also, animals deserve the right NOT to suffer at the hands of man which is their typical lot for their entire lives in the industrial food production system.

The terms "MSG" and "Processed Free Glutamic Acid" can be used interchangeably because they`re essentially and functionally equivilant. Sodium has no function in MSG other than to turn it into the salt form commonly known as monosodium glutamate. The only way a smart consumer can avoid it is by knowing the list of ingredients that contain or result in MSG.

If you did some more research, you would find that the FDA actually admits that those whom are sensitive to MSG can equate MSG and Glutamate when it's a component of autolyzed yeast, hydrolized protein etc...

The problem is that A) The FDA doesn't list all of those ingredients that contain or result in MSG. B) Food/beverage labels don't identify or quantify MSG when it's a component of those ingredients.

C) The FDA claims that 2% of the public is sensitive to MSG, but that's based on a study that's outdated from way back in the 1970's which studied its subjects for a duration of only 2 hours, and that limited the amount of symptoms to those of the Chinese Restaurant Syndrome. If you call that study "reliable", then you might as well say that the Pope is Jewish. Even taking that 2% statistic for granted, that implies that 12,000,000 people are sensitive to MSG. Don't they have a right to know when it's in their food/beverages or is 12 million people not enough to require MSG to be properly labeled?

If there's no cover-up of hidden MSG and its harms to the public, then when I mentioned to an employee of a science lab that I have questions about glutamate, why did he reply, "I can't talk to...but thank you very, very, very, very much for asking." before hanging up the phone?

You can either go back to your little bubble and stay a sheep or wake up and smell the cover-up. Regardless of your age, it will take you a lot of open-mindedness, courage and critical thinking to be able to come to any real epiphanies or realizations. However, if you're coming to conclusions so early on and not asking questions, then, to put it to you bluntly, you have a lot of growing up to do.

I am happy to correct or make clearer, what I said about yeast. Yeast, natural yeast, the kind used to make bread, contains approximately 6 to 11% naturally occurring glutamic acid, one of the nonessential amino acids, since our bodies can produce it. Our bodies are meant to be able to handle a certain amount of this form of glutamate. It is in a bound form, which is broken down into its free form so that it can enter the bloodstream and be released by the liver to be used by the brain. Glutamate receptors have more recently been located in many other parts of the body, including the lungs, the breasts, heart and joints. When naturally occurring glutamate is broken down as it should be, slowly and as nature intended, there shouldn't be a problem, unless we are born without the ability to process glutamate correctly. The problem most likely lies in the fact, that today, we are bombared with processed foods that contain several sources of free, processed glutamate, the harmful component of MSG...harmful, because it is a form that needs no digesting, allowing large amounts into the bloodstream immediately, and also because it contains other forms of free glutamate, such a pyro glutamic acid, and D- glutamic acid and carcinogens. The brain has a blood barrier and mechanisms that serve to remove excess glutamate from it. However, it is possible, according to Dr. Blaylock, a neurosurgeon, that this excessive amount of glutamate in our food can compromise this process and literally destroy these mechanisms. Isn't it interesting that Lily Pharma. and other drug companies are developing glutamate blockers to treat Parkinson's, obesity, Alzheimer's, migraine, Autism, and Schizophrenia?BTW, I hear from very ill vegans who find out that MSG and its hidden cousins, and hydrolyzed proteins in their food products and protein drinks, bars, and yeast supplements were causing a lot of pain. We all have our processed glutamate threshold.

I am a vegetarian thinking of turning vegan since it appears most dairy products contain glutamate. Does anyone know of any food sources of vitamin b12 that do not contain glutamate, as it sounds like nutritional yeast is actually bad for you?

Nutritional/brewers yeast is different than yeast extracts. Yeast extracts are known to have high levels of MSG due to processing and are added as flavorings in many processed foods. Nutritional yeast does not have the same processing. The process of producing yeast extract is with enzymes and fermentation of the yeast which breaks down the food into simpler compounds, one of them being MSG. The research Iíve found and people Iíve talked to on MSG and nutritional yeast is summed up just like every other bit of research Iíve done. One camp says yes it contains it and itís bad. Another says it doesnít contain it and itís not bad and the final says that it does contain naturally occurring glutamic acid and that thatís not bad.

You cannot avoid free glutamic acid by cutting out all foods permanently that contain any natural glutamate. A more realistic approach is to start with a diet as low in glutamates as possible (like the test diet) and then add in one new food giving time to notice reactions before adding in another new food. And yes, I would say nutritional yeast is bad for you the same way that bee pollen that isn't inside raw honey is bad for you and citric acid synthesized from corn is bad for you.

This msg toxicity is a disease caused by our modern food practices of extracting and hydrolyzing parts or features of natural food (really unnatural food since most of it comes from GMO corn or soy) and saying it is no worse for you than the original natural food. That just isn't true. Maltodextrin is nothing like heirloom sweet corn. Synthetic vitamin C is nothing like a fresh orange. B12 supplements are nothing like beef liver.

I have to say that a vegetarian lifestyle makes me nervous for this very reason. It has you scouring the planet for acceptable sources of B12 when you could be lightly sauteing a piece of liver every week. http://www.kznhealth.gov.za/nutrition/food6.htm. While it is possible to sustain a human body on plants only, you must use supplements: http://www.vegansociety.com/food/nutrition/b12/. Since Vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin, is only found in food of animal origin, including meat, milk and eggs where do vegans think B12 supplements come from?

As for dairy products, there is some evidence to support the argument that the pasteurization process is what makes dairy bad (look up "oxidized cholesterol"). Raw dairy cannot be equated with commercial pasteurized dairy any more than petro-chemically grown and coated vegetables can be equated with organic homegrown produce. It also stands to reason that heating milk (pasteurization) is what causes "milk" to be high in glutamic acid and not the milk itself. Many people on this board cannot tolerate ultra-pasteurized milk at all but some do well with pasteurized. Most people don't even have the option to try raw dairy since it is illegal in many states and hard to find in others. No one would eat raw dairy from industrial dairy operations and there are very few organic, small scale dairy farms any more.

The very fact that you are posting a question on this forum proves that you are thinking about what you put into your body much more than most Americans do. My advice is do some research before you allow a political philosophy dictate your dietary options and scrutinize every unnatural ingredient that you put into your body.

Besides, it is much more environmentally friendly to support local organic farms that raise heritage livestock breeds (they are saving from extinction by breeding by the way) on pastures and use that composted manure to grow their veggies. Huge agribusinesses use most of the petroleum in this country to create chemical fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides to grow monocultures of genetically modified grains harvested using huge diesel-burning machines requiring us to import most of our food crops from other countries.

One clarification: My children and I all react to pasteurized dairy but not to raw milk. I have never been able to find a glutamate level for raw milk since all of the lists online are referring to pasteurized milk when they say "milk".

In June of 1999 and again in 2000 I had the privilege of meeting one of the true heroes of our recent timeóDr. Russell Blaylock, M.D. Dr. Blaylock is a neuro-surgeon of great respect and a thorough researcher and author. Dr. Blaylock has explored in great depth the relationship of certain types of brain lesions and their cause, and has discovered a clear link to various food additives, which form or contain "free" glutamic acid. These additives, which are used as "flavor enhancers" or "sugar substitutes", include a host of aliases used by the food industry to disguise their true identityóMSG (Monosodium Glutamate). Some of these aliases include "autolyzed yeast", "yeast extract", "yeast nutrient", and "yeast food". Dr. Blaylock published his findings in 1997 in his best-selling book, Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills.

It was after having lunch with Dr. Blaylock in June 2000, that I learned that the "NON-Active Saccharomyces cerevisiae Nutritional Yeast", as used by many vegetarians and found in generous supply in many "super-food" styled green drinks, actually contains "free glutamic acid"óthe same neurotoxic compound as monosodium glutamate (MSG). Nutritional Yeast is classified as an "excitotoxin"óa classification of neurotoxic compounds that over-stimulate the neurotransmitters to death. According to Dr. Blaylock, "Free Glutamic Acid (MSG) literally stimulates neurons to death, causing brain damage to varying degrees." I learned that this MSG is not added to Saccharomyces cerevisiae nutritional yeast, but it occurs as a direct result of its growth and processing. READ MORE: (http://www.daystarbotanicals.com/nutritionalyeast.html).

Deb A., as a nurse you are obviously knowledgeable, and I am sure in your line of work you have had a lot of experience in dealing with sick populations. Unfortunately it seems that you have some personal bias against vegans which has skewed your understanding of certain issues and I would encourage you to consult with a Registered Dietician as to some of your concerns about vegans. People become vegans for many different reasons and may take different approaches to veganism. Meeting the complex protein and b12 requirements are actually quite easy and can be derived from a variety of non-animal supplemental sources (see further below). Unfortunately, as you state some vegans are not as educated in this regard as they should be. However, keep in mind that many are very knowledgeable and work with their doctors and dieticians, to make sure they are getting adequate nutrition, as did my husband and I when we became vegans. There are also many reputable online sources for vegans on the internet, which are managed by RDs, such as http://veganhealth.org/.

Commercial b12 is manufactured from bacterial fermentation, not animal products, so vegans can derive an adequate supply of b12 in their diets from a variety of supplements and enriched food sources. As mentioned by several of the posted comments, many vegans use nutritional yeast as one of their sources of b12, and so many have concerns about the presence of MSG. Unfortunately, as long as there is a lack of more stringent labeling standards it may be impossible to tell whether nutritional yeast products contain MSG as either an additive or by-product of processing. MSG is a potential problem with yeast products, rather than b12 fortifications and supplements. So, my suggestion would be that one might consider simply omitting the nutrional yeast, if there is a great enough concern. Vegans should ideally be consuming b12 from a variety of sources anyway, and should not be relying solely on the nutritional yeast as a source of b12.

MSG is a problem that we all must contend with, and as you state, vegans are not immune. My husband and I try to avoid a lot of processed foods in order to avoid MSG; however, we are aware that we donít live in a perfect world and try to strike a reasonable balance.

hi anon, i really appreciated a lot of what you said in your post & felt there is quite a bit of 'food for thought ... tho i was a bit surprised that bacterial fermentation is no longer considered 'animal sourced' to strict veganism? i would be interested to learn if there are any truly vegetable based sources of b12?

... unfortunately, not everyone can tolerate manufactured supplements made thru industrial fermentation practices- i am one who has reacted badly to every 'fermented' supplement i have ever tried. in the case of b-vites it tends to take awhile, i believe becoz i am chronically low in several so for the first couple months on any b-formula ive tried the benefits definitely outweigh any drawbacks. after that comes the tipping point, however.... and a definite increase in my chronic pain & fatigue, brain fog, signs of other deficiencies (especially mineral) etc. i suspect Leaky Gut and other damage from all the Soy i consumed for 5 of the 10 years i was lacto-ovo veggie. So-called 'Healthy Soy' did to me what wheat does to Coeliacs! now my poor damaged innards have to forever contend with every chemically manufactured food ingredient out there, with Carrageenan and ANYTHING with hidden msg or strongly glutamate producing, or solvent based, among the worst reactions.

i would bet that a lot of people- probly most!- who visit this board for advice are attempting to improve their health with one modified dietary lifestyle or another, be it vegetarian, full vegan, lowcarb, or even paleo. we are all coming from different backgrounds and assorted beliefs, but one critically unifying factor we ALL have in common is a basic dissatisfaction with our personal health issues and a realization that the commercially prepared foods we eat every day are beginning to poison us!

and i would like to contend in DebA's behalf- that while it is apparant something she wrote hit a hot button with you in some way... i have never personally felt that she has any sort of bias against veganism or any other dietary lifestyle. Not in the least! What DebA and many others here are campaigning for is full public awareness of what BigAg (and BigOG too) are putting in the foods we all have to choose from, and for the freedom to continue to choose to purchase clean, untainted food of all kinds.

becoz it really is a dietary minefield out there for all of us- vegan, paleo and everyone in between. anon, i hope you will continue to visit this board, and to feel comfortable posting your thoughts and insights. respectful dissent is essential to open communication, and what you said shows that you are equally concerned about the subject of food safety.

Thanks so much bo'nana. I just read Anon's post and for the life of me, am perplexed. I have no bias against any food style that is healthy and I certainly believe vegan to be one of the best. In fact, Mike and I eat 4 out of 7 meals without meat each week. We eat a diet rich in raw and cooked fruits and vegetables, beans, mushrooms, brown rice, and whole wheat. We do eat a lot of eggs...mostly egg whites. We feel great, and find that the best way for us to lose unwanted weight (think holidays) is to eat less meat than usual. Now that we are in our 60's, we know how important it is to eat less meat and pile on the produce. Need to keep up with all those grandkids! FYI, we are working on the site and discussion board..started with a new picture on the home page...expect a few more updates and changes in the coming months.

P.S. I am not a nurse. Where did that come from? I've been a nurse's aide, and worked in my son's chiro office...have had three years of college with nutrition as one of my majors...eons ago. I don't pretend to be anything but a concerned mom, grandma, and friend. I just care about people and the future of this country. That's it.

Deb, I think you were taking heat from Anon about some things I said in my posts. It's me that thinks that using political views to choose fuel for the human body is perhaps not the most intelligent thing a person can do. I think the body needs what it needs and no amount of wishful thinking will make those needs go away. However, vegan, raw and vegetarian diets are vastly superior to junk food/fast food/processed food type diets if they are made up of home-cooked meals. (Sadly, the two vegetarians that I knew were junk food junkies and I suspect many use the inclusion (or not) of meat products as the only criteria when choosing a meal). I guess I believe we are born omnivores and am decidedly biased toward whole, unadulterated food diets and regard supplements as "guilty until proven innocent" (innocent meaning bioavailable, pure and additive-free). It seems counterintuitive to choose a lifestyle that has a built-in nutritional supplement requirement if you are trying to eat healthy. That being said, my philosophy is to live and let live so I'm not particularly invested in trying to change anyone's mind or analyze the choices others make for themselves. It did strike me as odd that they posted this on a board about avoiding harmful food additives, but whatever.

BTW, nice picture on the front page, Deb. You are the picture of health. Whatever dietary choices you are making, they are obviously working for you...That's what it's REALLY all about anyway, each of us figuring out what works best for our bodies and sticking to it.

tphelps - I found your article very helpful. I appreciate that the sources were reliable and well documented. I think perhaps the easiest bits of information to digest from a laymanís point of view were from the following summary: ď1) MSG, a well-known flavor enhancer, is manufactured by a fermentation process utilizing sugar beet or cane molasses. 2) Red Star Nutritional Yeast is manufactured by a fermentation process utilizing sugar beet or cane molasses. 3) The parent company of Red Star Yeast, Sensient Technologies, is a world leader in the manufacture of "flavor enhancers.Ē

I think it is important to rely on the advice of experts like Dr Russell Blaylock (as also mentioned by Deb A.) who has found that nutritional yeast and other yeast products are a cause for concern with free glutamic acid because of the manufacturing process. The fact that the nutritional yeast manufacturers do not specifically list free glutamic acid on the label is simply reflective of deficiencies in labeling standards. So, I agree with Anon that vegans can use their best judgment and simply omit the nutritional yeast from their diets if there is any lingering doubt. There are so many other healthy sources of b12 supplement or fortified foods which only need to be taken once daily or weekly that there really is no need to rely on nutritional yeast.

boínana and kristy Ė I just have a side note on b12 supplements that I thought you might find interesting. I am familiar with what Anon refers to with b12 manufactured from non-animal sources. I am completing my degree in Human Development this year, so I have had opportunities to research this through my coursework. B12 can be recovered as a by-product of streptomycin and aureomycin antibiotic fermentations, but is more commonly manufactured on a large scale by direct fermentation. In either case the fermentation mediums are not animal sources. The recovery method from antibiotic production uses soy meal and glucose as fermentation mediums and the direct fermentation method uses glucose and corn steep liquor. It is my understanding that the concern for vegans is actually with the binders and additives which can be animal based, although there are a few supplements that use dried liver, rather than bacterial fermentation as the source of b12.

To put it simply, the fermentation process used in manufacturing b12 accomplishes the same thing as an animalís digestive system, which relies on bacterial fermentation to break down food. But it is important to understand that b12 is actually produced by the bacteria Ė not by the animal or by the plants they eat. The animalsí bodies do not produce the b12; it just ends up in their tissues simply because they digest it. Meat eaters can get their b12 by eating the Ďmiddle maní, so to speak, whereas vegans can get their b12 supplement from the same source as animals Ė microorganisms.

ive just been discovering that a major root of my bad skin & hair problems is a serious deficiency in zinc... probly a big contributor to the joint problems, bad hypotension & messed up sleep as well- becoz everything seems to be improving now that im eating a few oysters every day! hooray!

anyway, ive learned that Phytates (ie SOY!! and Wheat, Corn, & other acidic grains) and Too Much Coffee (ie- ooops) are terrible for zinc absorption... and of course it just stands to reason that Carrageenan and other Gums would also prevent absorption becoz of their gut 'coating' effect

...so now reading this i wonder, could Nutritional Yeast be another bad minerals inhibitor too? im trying to research all possible connections so i can hopefully avoid this problem from now on- it really hasnt been fun. mostly exhausting, sometimes even scary...

thing is, ive been off soy for several years, cleaned up my act with msg & glutamate additives last summer, and generally have a very heavy plant based CLEAN diet (w lots of fresh fruit & green salads!). i cant think why i should be having any problems with zinc at all! for the past month ive even gone to an essentially alkali diet-especially no wheat, corn or peanuts, and coffee down to an occasional treat when going out. yet even with various nice improvements from all that, overall my health just keeps creeping downhill in new ways- so what gives?? ive never had so many problems with joints, energy, heart, hair & especially skin as in these past few years!! not even back when i spent my teen years half drunk & more or less stoned out of my mind (diet? lets not even go there- i basically survived highschool on flavored coffees, french fries & lunchroom burritos with a nice side of ketchup packs as a veggie ">*

anyway, the reason i feel like nutritional yeast might have something to do with it is becoz a couple years ago i was using quite a lot of it in an effort to correct some bad B-complex & minerals issues that my unfortunate affair with evil king soy had left me... but out of the frying pan, into the fire yet again- you'd think id learn!- sure enough, within months, hair & tummy troubles were worse than ever, and somewhere in there is when the skin issues started

id never made any sort of connection becoz the new problems have persisted even tho all the *nutritional* yeast went off to the dump over a year ago.... but now, i wonder... what sort of long term damage can this stuff do???

after thinking about it, i realized both my sons have signs of zinc deficiency also- my older son has developed scoliosis and other disturbing cartilage signs that hint at impending marfan (the kind that hits at puberty), and my younger son didnt grow more than a couple inches in two years- but we've been allowing him to indulge in all the eggs he wants for about half a year now and he has sprouted 4". so zinc insufficiency could easily be the common denominator for them too! i'd noticed my older son has less crackling and joint discomfort since he started eating oysters with me- another good sign. my older boy cant do much dairy, so they'd both noshed down gobs of that cheezy yeastglop right along with me!

aaaaarrrrgggghhhh. AGAIN.

...very interesting to me also is the great info you posted, Cordova... as ive had mild ongoing tummy troubles all me life, yet its been ever since using all these so-called 'superfood' supplements and other 'nutritional aids' -yeast, vitamin concentrates, protein powders, etc- that my health has gotten truly and neverendingly awful. it really seems that everything i have ever taken to get 'healthier' has only ever made me sicker in the end- which is why i am totally off supplements for good and forever now, i will find health & recovery without them or not at all. GROWR!! and i really realize from what you said, that the modern industrial fermentation process used is absolutely NOTHING at all like what the ancients used when they arrived at their truly life- & health-giving wonder foods. i wonder just how much of what is more or less mysteriously done & claimed 'safe' by these big production mills in order to obtain the massively fast & high-volume results they get... just how much of all that is behind so many of our more recent epidemic health woes?

mere speculation. snf. no way to investigate a bit of it i suppose forgive my longwinded rant, everyone... im just feeling frustrated. and a little mad.

on the bright side... in the 8 days ive been eating oysters, my eczema has suddenly & rather *miraculously* vanished!! except for some discolored patches, the face in the mirror is actually CLEAR!

thank YOU Creator of the ocean for the gift of oysters- a TRUE superfood.

(altho, i should post one caveat... oysters are actually horrendously high in zinc- wonderful for correcting deficiency, but not a good idea to eat much of on any steady basis. which is why they are- and always have been- considered a special treat, never the main course)

...so now reading this i wonder, could Nutritional Yeast be another bad minerals inhibitor too?

i should be more specific- i meant, for SENSITIVE people? everything ive found online only exclaims on how wonderful yeast is as a source of bvites & minerals- however, i can look back in my own life and recognize a definite correlation between the onset & severity of my deficiency symptoms, and when i was using things like Soy, "protein" powders/"energy" drinks, and "nutritional" yeast. it just seems that for me, every processed supplement "food" has only ever done the exact opposite of what its publicly touted for... and often with long term consequences

bo'nana, I really feel for you and your struggle. I think it can be really overwhelming at times trying to figure out the best approach. It would certainly be easier if the medical field could offer better answers in pin-pointing the issues. I just tend to think that perhaps our world has changed so fast over the past millennium that there are more issues than modern medicine can contend with.

As you seem to indicate, everyone is different and some people are more sensitive to certain foods than others. Many of the symptoms you talk about sound similar to certain auto-immune conditions (which can be genetic). Iím certainly NOT trying to diagnose you, but your comments just made me think about how some persons with auto-immune conditions can already have issues with nutrient absorption and would definitely be more impacted by exposure to substances or foods which could create further damage to an already compromised body.

I know that phytates and oxalates can both act as binding agents in the body and interfere with mineral absorption. Phytates and oxalates are not one in the same and are not always found in the same foods. There is some belief that the presence of phytates and oxalates are actually intended to act as shields to our bodies from absorbing too much of certain minerals, such as iron, which can be deadly at toxic levels. Generally, a varied and well balanced diet offers protection from consuming too much of foods high in these substances. Cooking, fermenting, and soaking can also reduce the levels of phytates and oxalates in foods. Interestingly, yeast (since it is a fermenting agent) actually degrades or destroys phytates. It is more common for doctors to prescribe diets for osteoporosis patients to avoid foods high in oxalates. However, the issue with phytates is not as yet commonly recognized by the medical community.

I am not aware of any information to support the fact that nutritional yeast interferes with nutrient absorption. However, I think it is important to understand that phytates and oxalates are both organic acids, whereas yeast is a fungus that contains enzymes. As a rule, the enzymes found in fermented products are actually found to increase nutrient absorption in the human body. These enzymes are also known as beneficial probiotics. What yeast is known to interfere with is the absorption of drugs known as MAO inhibitors.

thanx for that, cordova... especially the part about autoimmunity. i think you pinned something - besides me, quite a few others in my family also struggle with assorted autoimmune issues, and thinking more about it i know i am not the only one who has had problems with low minerals either. so it seems there could be some uniquely genetic connection there. hm.

everything you said about yeast & phytates & enzymes makes a lot of sense to me too... and yes, i have indeed suspected phytates for some time now, and also had to take enzyme supplements for awhile in order to kick start my messed up digestion again (tho of course after a short while there was another reaction)... hm some more.

this definitely all bears more thought and research... i still cant quite shake the feeling that somehow, there still might be some sort of odd correlation in using nutritional yeast and some of the symptoms that really did get noticeably worse during that time. especially when, if anything, the RedStar yeast *should* have corrected a lot of my issues- since its supposed to be such an amazingly powerpacked nutritional aid, and supposedly so beneficial to exactly the sort of deficiency related issues ive experienced...

i dont do MAOs, so no connection there... but i wonder could it be possible for some sensitive people to experience an opposite, or reverse reaction such as often occurs in the side effects to pharma meds? so much to think more about

I think our clean diet is just short of hitting the mark for the candida diet and I think it may be the missing link. Also, the natural anti-fungals should go quite nicely with the probiotics and other natural anti-inflammatories that we have added to our diet. One of the things that really made the connection for me (in the last week) is learning that Aspergillus (mold) is used in the manufacture of citric acid and HFCS, two of the most common food additives in use today. You can see why corn allergy and mold allergy would both be irritated by corny additives and they go hand in hand with yeast overgrowth. Take a look at this page to see some of the "Industrial Uses" for Aspergillus. Now you can see that it is also used to make digestive enzymes and enzymes for cheesemaking, alcoholic beverages, FLAVOR ENHANCERS, etc. Not to mention that citric acid is the main hidden corn additive in use so everyone ingests lots more than they realize......is it no wonder that mold allergy and candida overgrowth are becoming more and more common.

I am going to start us on the candida diet (corn-free of course) and we'll take the antifungals and see if it helps. I hope this helps someone out there struggling with unresolved issues like fatigue, bloating, sensitivity to chemicals/perfumes, dry skin, too.

you know kristy, the more i look at that possibility the more i think thats got to be it -UGH- sigh. everything im reading about candida and leaky gut matches up too perfectly with what ive been experiencing. the one thing i just dont get, is why would it be getting worse instead of better in the months since ive really cleaned up my diet??

i mean, ive learned so much here, ive discovered numerous sensitivities i didnt realize id been living with... got it all out of the diet... no more msg in any of its hidden forms, no more phosphates, citrates, sulfates/sulfites/-ides/-onates/etc, no more 'nutritional' or torula yeast, 'natural' flavors, fluoridated/silica laced toothpaste, or silicones/-canes/ etc in my shampoo or face paint, etc etc etc... and better off without it! i have practically no palpitations anymore, i dont feel like walking death most of the time- energy not great, but better than in years! hair feeling & looking healthier again, toenails normal :D ... and much less joint pain and crackling, since ive been eating a few oysters every day.

yet, still increasing food/enviro/chem sensitivities causing new issues that ive never dealt with before- especially in the skin dept. so, i know i am weak there with an underlying collagen-vascular disorder, and candida/leaky gut makes perfect sense in explaining why i would have new sensitivities & reactions periodically popping up

the one thing i dont quite understand is why the yeast/gut issues would be persisting & getting worse, instead of gradually healing... probly another underlying mystery issue that has yet to surface, i suppose.

well im with you. since new years ive also been eating lots of turmeric & yogurt, and essentially off yeast/wheat/corn/peanut/flour of any kind and limiting coffee to a cup only when im out... sure enough, the eczema looks a lot better but anytime i make an exception i can expect to see a flareup next morning (for example, nite before last i goofed & ate half a slice of otherwise safe pizza before i thought about the wheat, then yesterday i gave in and indulged in about 4 bites of birthday cake + a few chips with homemade guacamole- today? 2 patches around my mouth are red & scaly all over again- GRR.)

so i guess im going to have to buckle down and really focus on this candida diet to see if it will make the necessary difference! misery loves company... im glad youre going on it too- which antifungals do you plan to take? lets keep each other posted on how it goes, ok?

Your symptoms also seem to match up with thyroid symptoms. It might be something worth looking into. I'm not trying to make my experience everyone else's, but I had some crazy symptoms that could have overlapped with many different conditions, but they all for sure added up with hypothyroid symptoms. A year later, I've been diagnosed with hypothyroidism and my latest blood test shows that I have Hashimoto's....

Getting our "issues" figured out takes time and money but the truth sets us free in the end.

thanx for sharing your thoughts anon- i agree with you, the rewards of persistence are definitely worth the pain & suffering of the search ...so frustrating isnt it tho, when you KNOW there is some still unidentified thing interfering with your journey, and try as you might, it continues to evade...

i really appreciate your suggestion to check my thyroid, and actually that is one of the things the drs ive seen typically like to check for... however when the tests invariably come back with "normal" or maybe just a few subclinical values, they generally prescribe supplements and suggest antidepressants. o dear, everyone in america must suffer from depression (rolling eyes)- and surely theres a pill to make it all better

hashimoto's is no fun. im sorry to hear youve got it- my mom does too, so i know how it is. but i am glad youve been able to finally pin down such a major source of trouble, and wanted to reassure you that a lot of people find their condition responds very well to the added hormones. for some, Armour/natural seems to be best while others feel they respond better to one of the synthetics- so there will likely be a difficult period ahead of trial & error until your body is able to regain balance... but here's to the hope that a year from now will see you as healthy as you were a year ago, before the craziness started

btw, i want to add that Soy is very VERY hard on the thyroid so do be sure to AVOID it like the plague from here on out! also, crucifers & cabbage should be lightly cooked in order to deactivate something in them that suppresses thyroid function- which means things like waldorf salads & coleslaw are going to have to be traded for stirfry and saurkraut (eh, homemade of course)... and for some reason, peanut bothers some Hashi's but not others. my mom does fine with peanut butter sometimes, but right now is going thru a phase where it seems to aggravate her condition. weve never known why that is...

you search last x days - if when you click on the link you get lost, you hit if you hit control F "find on page" - I put in the time of the last post in that lost thread in that box for find -- and then I go back to the Topics page and find that time using "next" - check the date to see if it is right - if so click on that thread / sub board and go from there - sometimes I have to search (ie do next on the new page) for the time a second time or find the NEW icon

Iím not sure where to post this. I have had a very limited diet for a while and seem to have some deficiencies at the moment. Iím not sure what to do. I know that I am extremely sensitive to the toxic effects of msg and I find I react to corn products. I just found out that my ferritin is 6 (my iron storesÖthe range should be 12-150 with most doctors preferring the number to be about 50), my B12 was low enough that the Dr. wanted to give me a B12 shot, My D is low and my Zinc is low. She told me I was borderline hypothyroid. She is a Naturopath as well as an MD and wanted to prescribe me supplements. There were about 5 she wanted to start me on. I looked at the ingredients and balked. Microcyrstalline cellulose, cellulose, gelatin, croscamellose sodium, stearic acid, carrageenan, etc. I called the company and the said there was no corn. I was still concerned about an msg reaction. I donít think I should take the supplements, but donít know how to raise my levels. I tried blackstrap molasses for the Iron, but immediately noticed a reaction. I tried Nutritional yeast flakes for the Bís, but again seemed to notice a reaction. Iím tired all the time because of my Iron levels and the hypothyroid maybe. Any ideas? Also, she gave me a Ultra Flora Plus (she uses Metagenics for all her products), that seemed fairly innocuous, but Iím not sure now. The ingredients are FOS, Lactobacillus acidophilus (milk), Bifidobacterium lactis (milk, soy) and rice maltodextrin. Again, Any help would be appreciated. Thanks everyone!

hi saraB... wow. sounds like you are in quite a quandary... i can relate, its sure tough- how to raise oneself from deficiency-caused illness without triggering new symptoms from chemical sensitivities??? so many things are coming to mind right now, i think i am going to just randomly start firing off thoughts and considerations at you- so please bear with me

...i would have to say that if your sensitivities & reactions are anything like mine, you are probly much better off avoiding all supplements containing the ingredients you listed... which of course really narrows down the list of viable options. but after finally weaning off after years on the supplement treadmill, i do honestly feel that i am better off with the genuine imbalances ive got to deal with, than with all the reactions from the various nasty synthetic ingredients and artificial levels of assorted nutrients i was taking in an effort to regain that elusive thing called health! just too many awful, sometimes long term reactions! plus, i now also kind of instinctively sense that all the unnatural levels of various supplemental nutrients might have caused my system to go even farther out of whack than if i hadnt taken anything at all- i cant prove it in the least, you might just say its a 'gut feeling' . har har.

...like you, i also react negatively to Nutritional Yeast and to Molasses (sulphured or unsulphured at this point). i used both for quite awhile without connecting the increasing symptoms to either, becoz after all arent they both 'foods'... however, i now experience almost immediate reactions to even small amounts of either of them (burning mouth from yeasts and sore tongue/gut pain from molasses). in the past few months ive also begun reacting poorly to wheat & corn, so it is getting trickier to get "enough" B's... interestingly tho, so far im not showing any of my old symptoms of deficiency. could my body be utilizing more efficiently? i dont know- but i think its odd that when i was taking loads of B supplements, i kept having increasing symptoms of B deficiencies, but now even tho my diet is probly marginal, i dont seem to be having those same issues.

...a few years back, i was very very low in Iron- tested not much higher than you- courtesy of several years of heavily soy-based 'healthy' diet. i was exhausted all the time, in the beginning stages of actual anemia, hair was dropping like crazy and very brittle, thyroid tested in the normal range but i had all the symptoms of low thyroid function (again, thank you King Soy!) and so my naturopath immediately put me on Iron supplements. several made me ill. eventually i landed on the herbal liquids by FloraDix (www.florahealth.com) and seemed to tolerate them well... i took their products for over a year, until (even tho still exhausted and now with heart symptoms) another test showed normal levels. i havent gone back on the liquid, so i dont know whether it is genuinely 'safe'... but it did solve the extremely low iron issue.

...if you use any soy at all, you should get off it IMMEDIATELY and avoid it forever- so called 'heart healthy' soy contains powerful phytates and other chemicals which modern processing only concentrates further, and these chemicals actually prevent the body from being able to utilize thyroid hormone, even tho the actual organ will most likely remain perfectly healthy. many non-asians also lack important digestive enzymes for being able to break down soy proteins, the ultimate result for me was a damaged digestive tract similar to what wheat does to coeliacs. when i think of all the protein powders & other soy-based "superfood" poison i pumped into my system over the years, only to grow sicker & more poisoned, i feel so thoroughly duped by the deceit of an industry that i have come to believe must be fully aware of what it is doing to innocent, unknowing people everywhere.

getting off soy has helped immeasurably, even so i dont know if i will ever be truly 'healthy' again... nutritional imbalances seem just a part of life now, a continual balancing act. but over time, especially with all ive learned to avoid since discovering this board, i do feel much better in some important ways: ive discovered that i have nearly NO heart symptoms anymore- as long as i can successfully avoid 'natural flavors'. i have developed, or possibly just unmasked, new food & chem sensitivities- especially in the last few months- but i have better hair, sleep, & more energy than in years. That's saying something!

i do think that many of the lasting problems-maybe all of them- are one way or another gut related, but not all are allergies or hopefully permanently needing to be avoided. wheat, corn, peanut & maple syrup for example- brand new issues just since the holidays. i suspect that my imbalanced gut acids & flora reached some sort of tipping point a few months ago, and im holding on to hope that i may eventually be able to come back away from this place to one that is easier to maintain again.

however, at this time, as long as i do strictly avoid these new things, i really am feeling better than in a long while- a good thing to keep in mind! right now i am mostly eating fresh raw fruit, raw & cooked vegies, lots of beans, meat, eggs, nuts & seeds. RAW honey i seem to handle fine, but not pasteurized (cooked- no enzymes). likewise PURE stevia seems well tolerated, but it took me awhile to connect vague tummy upset to FOS/inulin (a filler) or 'natural flavors' in most of what's available. for now, those seem to be the only two concentrated sweets my system can handle, everything else causes my eczema to flare.

so, a big part of my current problem i think stems from having developed a yeast &/or bacterial overgrowth after having been on antiparasitic herbs for several months... good news is that the kreepy krawlies are gone (ICK!), major drawback is the new gut imbalance i really wish id been prepared for before it happened.

...i think, if you'll look up symptoms of SIBO of Candidiasis, you might be surprised how many match- and it is definitely something to check into with the sort of minerals & Bvite imbalances youve got.

...and finally, some things ive discovered lately REALLY seem to help with my issues are: Turmeric & Cinnamon (i take about a Tbsp a day, mixed in yogurt, + LOTS of water), fresh Ginger, Garlic, Butter, Avocado, plain wholemilk Yogurt (with NO fillers- Deb has a good easy recipe), Herbal Bitters, raw Pumpkin Seeds & Almonds, Almond Butter, Brown Rice, free range meats & poultry & soups made from same, Mushrooms including Shiitake etc, LOADS of fresh Raw Fruits, Salads, raw or lightly cooked Vegies (any so far), i can still do baby potatos and Sweet Potatos, oh and my son & i are both eating Smoked Oysters every day for the zinc- both of us noticed IMMEDIATE improvement in joint pain & crackling, and much better sleep.

well, this was sure a rambling mess but i hope you will be able to glean something helpful... its all about making those crucial connections in order to step forward again! cheers!!

...also forgot to include Raw 'with the Mother' Apple Cider Vinegar on my "feel-good-foods" list... and Traditional Medicinals Lemon Daily Detox herbal tea. i add a splash of the vinegar to each cup of tea, helps immeasurably with tum troubles- probly becoz it stimulates HCl & other stomach secretions, and i seem to be chronically low in both (another big clue to some sort of gut overgrowth)

...and oh my goodness while im at it, i guess i will go ahead and mention to be cautious with Licorice & Slippery Elm which are popular in many herbal teas- i have found i can NOT tolerate them at all, my guess being that they coat the innards (just like Carrageenan) which is extra-unhelpful for someone allready struggling with absorption issues...

Hi Guys, I wanted to first list some safe supplements. I am corn and soy allergic so the search for supplements has been a long one....We tolerate these fine: Thorne Research B complex #12 Carlson D drops Blue Ice fermented cod liver oil customprobiotics.com six strain probiotic Green pastures high vitamin butter oil

That's it. I haven't a clue how to find other supplements that are safe, but I can't tolerate any of the ingredients that were listed in your post. I have learned quite a few tricks about natural supplements, though. Raw liver pills is one of them - it would help with iron and B vit. levels.....http://nourishedmagazine.com.au/blog/articles/nourishing-the-liver

Also, sugar cane is a close relative of corn so it is not uncommon to react to molasses if you are sensitive to corn. Corn oil is often used a de-foaming agent when processing syrups (which is why it is tough to find a safe maple syrup). Anyone with a mold allergy or candida issues should not try to ingest yeast, nutritional or baking. Mold allergy is also linked to Candida overgrowth and multiple food allergies, especially corn and soy. Mold feeds the yeast and so does fungus. In this vein, citric acid, HFCS and distilled vinegars will be particularly tough on the candida patient because they are made from corn using aspergillus mold. Mushrooms and all vinegars except organic ACV should be avoided as well.

Take a look at the candida diet site which has an excellent natural program for fighting candida. We are doing it right now in hopes it will help with our multiple sensitivities (especially perfumes and other scented things that are impossible to avoid in the outside world): http://www.thecandidadiet.com/

it appears they are just Vit D and fractionated coconut oil with varying amounts of Vit D in them - I guess I am just a little paranoid having reacted to 2 different brands of Vitamin D and so am looking at the low dose (400 IU / drop) ones) which are for babies and children

well guys, i bit the bullet & forked over $30 for a 5oz bottle of Carlsons Cod Liver Oil- yikes, the price!!- but well worth it, if it provides one of the missing links for my son & i... i couldnt find the Blue Ice fermented version in my area, but since i havent seen any reactions from Carlson's taurine powder i decided to chance it with their oil (the unflavored version, of course). we just had our first teaspoon dose which is supposed to provide 100% vitD but not crazy amounts of vitA, and they say it is NOT chemically treated so here's hoping for the best... anyway, we didnt think it tasted bad at all, very mild really- not nasty like the fishy stuff i remember from childhood! i took a spoonful of my herbal bitters at the same time and so far havent had any tummy troubles like i get every time ive ever tried Flax or Primrose or any of the other 'Omega3' oils. my son opted to drizzle his onto a piece of garlic bread, while i just sprinkled mine over my salad, along with a little sesame oil for a richer flavour- we both agreed, it was actually quite nice

oh im glad you mentioned that, Deb! i noticed they have a much larger bottle (11oz i think) that is much more cost effective but only in the lemon flavor & i was afraid to chance it- the palpitations i get from the usual "lemon flavor" always hit hours later and sometimes quite strong! but after i run out of this bottle, i might go ahead & try the other one next time

so far so good, ive used the oil 3x so far with no problems at all, and i think i am going to try doubling the dose for a little while to see if that might "jump start" my immune system and get my skin clearing up for good. i hope!

...i have finally FINALLY figured out this particular rash which set in after the perioral dermatitis cleared up more than a month ago- ive been calling it eczema becoz that would seem best connected to the original outbreak... but couldnt figure why, since ive been off most carbs & sugars, it just isnt getting better- it did briefly, but new spots cropped up after only a few days. and new ones have continued to periodically appear, i now have a nice little collection scattered around my mouth, cheekbones & forehead. another new one popped up a week ago across the bridge of my nose and its been redder & flakier than the rest- i looked at it last nite and realized WELL FOR GOODNESS SAKE I KNOW WHAT THAT IS!!! i had it on my leg as a kid!

of all things, my latest skin malady is RINGWORM- aaaaargh (thanx kitteh!) but no one else in my family gets all these wierd skin issues, only me... and i just keep feeling there is some hidden reason (probly dietary) that if i can get it sorted out, it would be so simple to remedy

well, here's hoping. thanks always to all of you for all your great feedback, its always sooo helpful, i really mean it

obtw Deb, if i can ask... what made you decide that you needed to start taking the oil, and how long did you use it before you noticed benefits? what happens now if you stop taking it again? thanx!!

Thanks for the information everyone! I'm "digesting" the info and will try the iron supplement mentioned. Does anyone have experience with hypothyroid? I have been away from all forms of soy after a realized several years ago that I was reacting to it. I basically can only eat fresh fruit and veggies (no onions, garlic, etc.) and have a very hard time finding any supplements I can take. Sometimes I do o.k. with whole herbs and some ayurvedic herbs straight and some supplements that have no fillers, binders, preservatives, etc. I've been very limited for a while. I'm just concerned about the thyroid, b12, iron, d3, DHEA, zinc and I was also low in good bacteria. I don't know how much I should worry. I'm exhausted all the time, jaw pain, headaches, waking up with anxiety, can't sleep soundly, etc. Any ideas would be great. Thanks! Hope everyone is doing well!

hi again saraB... have you been able to look into the Candida/SIBO possibility? most of the nutrients you named as low (Bvites-vitD-iron-zinc), plus low in good bacteria, from everything i am reading that would seem to strongly indicate overgrowth of bad gut flora &/or parasites. and it also seems to be bearing out in my own experiences so far...

i dont think worry would help much, but a heaping handful of good relevant information often gives one the power & ability needed to step forward from a bad place into something better- im rooting for you! hang in there & keep investigating!

hi bo'nana - what are you doing for candida and what is SIBO? I might do a parasite cleanse. It's been a thought I've had for a long time, but I had a comprehensive digestive stool analysis from genova labs and nothing came back on candida or parasites...thanks again!!

ive heard it said that most everyone actually has unwanted kreepy krawlies in our guts, we just dont realize it.... i dont know how anyone can know that for certain, but i do think that any of us with chronic digestive imbalances are undoubtedly at greater risk since HCl, enzymes & the other secretions are our natural protectors against these nasty little hitchhikers.

...i ended up doing a parasite cleanse about 6 months ago, for a demodex/skin mite infestation that was making my rosacea flare up badly... i had no idea what was in store when i started, but sure enough Strange Things did appear in the bowl (more gifts from our vole-hunter kitteh-!) i nearly fainted the first time, i was so shocked =8>P

Cure Zone has LOADS of info and very helpful folks on their parasite board, ive learned a ton from them about a subject i never imagined i would ever need to know! some people there have fought their buggers for years, but apparently i have been one of the lucky ones and managed to kill mine off in the first round- from what ive learned, i am thinking it was a newish infestation, evidently only one or maybe two (one scolex for certain and not certain of a second)

this probly isnt the board to go into greater detail here, but i guarantee CureZone can provide you with more than you ever wanted to know, if you do decide to investigate cleansing. i do want to say a couple more things tho: a) in addition to my Rosacea (separate from the Eczema &/or Ringworm) being almost 90% improved (only a few broken veins now), i also no longer experience the 'flipflopping' in my innards that i had taken for nightly anxiety attacks. b) i believe they are right when they say the buggers have a monthly lunar cycle & there is a best time for starting the cleanse when they are most vulnerable- it is when i began mine & i experienced almost immediate results. but they are also right when they say the discomfort is worse then- my buggers fought back, and fought hard. i experienced pains i havent had since giving birth! c) something i did not realize when i started, is there is a whole protocol that is CRUCIAL to follow, or you will likely make yourself sicker in some ways... for example, i didnt realize i needed to take probiotics the whole while which i am now suspecting might be part of my current problem with Candida & probly SIBO. i also wound up with a bad case of bacterial folliculitis which took nearly 3 months to resolve- i didnt protect meself adequately during die-off, and becoz my skin & internal balance was allready so off-kilter there was a perfect breeding ground for all the bacteria & yeasts the dying monster released. took care of one problem only to give a powerful foothold to another!

let me know if at some point you find you would like to privately discuss this particular issue further i dont want to push you one way or the other, sara, except to say that if it is a thought you have had for a long time... you may want to listen to those instincts, your body just might know something your brain is hating to think about (thats how it was with me!) ive also had the CDSA done, and ive learned that while it is a very informative test it just cant catch everything. kritters have to be in a shedding phase and not "encysted" elsewhere in the body

SIBO stands for small intestine bacterial overgrowth... and it goes by other names which ive forgotten at the moment. there is a Hydrogen Breath Test which is supposed to be very accurate for that. i havent had it done, just decided to self treat based on the fact that ive plenty of risk factors & symptoms alike

it seems like all the antiCandida and antibacterial diets (and antiparasitic) diets are a lot alike, and really not that different from what most of us are allready doing to avoid MSG etc except for being very low in starches & sugars. plus boosting with lots of anti-yuck herbs & foods like yogurt, garlic, cilantro, turmeric, cinnamon, cider vinegar, raw seeds etc... theres a rotation with the killing herbs thats got to be done too, and all that sort of info can be found on boards like CureZone and EarthClinic.

one other thing i want to mention (check this out kristy!) is that i am just finishing my first rotation with Borax therapy (as outlined on EarthClinic) to reduce my body load of fluoride since i react so badly to all the halides and right off noticed immediate changes in my Candida symptoms. for example, ive had a chronic sinus condition that ive suspected for some time as being fungal. on Day2 & 3 my sinuses suddenly decided to release loads of very strange whitish "cottonball" secretions (how luvly)... so i think thats confirmation of yeast colonization there too! plus now on Day6 i have noticed a painful fissure at the edge of a nostril has suddenly begun closing up- HOORAY! ive had that darn sore since October and NOTHING else ive tried made a bit of difference! Borax is strongly antifungal, so i am feeling cautiously optimistic this might be an important key to healing... this time, tho, i am determined to follow protocol EXACTLY to avoid having to start over with any more new issues

gosh i hope i havent been overly graphic in this post- i really want to apologize to anyone i may have offended or grossed out with anything i just wrote. but if there is a chance of something resonating in some way with anyone struggling with similar stubbornly resistant issues, i just cant not share my own (albeit disgusting) discoveries in hopes it might help unlock someone else's awful mysteries too!

kristy, how about you? youve been following an antiCandida protocol yourself right? how are you doing?? would love to have you weigh in with your thoughts and discoveries so far!

I take the fish oil for the A and D vitamins and of course, the Omega 3. As we get older, I think an extra amount of these nutrients are very important. As for the lemon flavoring, I wouldn't want to steer you wrong...hope it's okay for you. In the past, I have added organic peppermint or spearmint oil to plain fish oil. I'm sure there is organic lemon oil available somewhere.

I am going to Earthclinic right now to look into borax therapy. You have really caught my interest with that.

We are slowly but surely working on the candida diet. I am now collecting the antifungals that I will need because we're in the first three weeks of the diet right now. I also need to order probiotics. We eat fermented veggies and do dairy kefir, but I would like some probiotics to take, too.

I've really not seen much difference in myself, but this is very similar to the diet I was already following. The only thing that is driving me crazy is I just crave something crispy and salty (as usual) and can't think of anything legal that will satisfy that craving. I'll keep you guys posted.

Do remember that even though you may be getting a lot of healthy bacteria from the kefir, that milk is extremely high in naturally occurring glutamate. And the fermenting process turns it into free glutamate, the form found in MSG that enters the blood stream immediately, bypassing the need for digestion. That can be said for any food that contains natural glutamate, and that includes a lot of vegetables.

a quick update on borax therapy... im now working on my 2nd rotation, finished the active phase last nite & now have 3 days off so my system can rest... i have to say, borax is definitely doing SOMETHING and it seems like its good. that nasal fissure is completely closed now, and only slightly tender, every day it keeps improving. and my skin is looking a LOT better, i still have eczema but the ones that looked like ringworm disappeared almost overnite. and even the eczema patches look at least 75% improved, no longer red or itchy at all- hooray!! still some flaking but i am also washing my face with a dilute borax solution at night and then massaging with rose hip seed oil in the mornings and everything looks and feels sooooo much better than it had. so i highly recommend to anyone struggling with chronic skin issues, especially if you suspect fungal or yeast involvement at all- at least give this a try!! of ALL the things i have tried over the past year, this is easily the most obviously effective, right off the bat- i am SO impressed! i even get to cover my remaining blemishes again, and no flares from using makeup either- yippee Shiners are definitely lighter too

kristy, have you had a chance to look into it yet? keep me posted if you decide to try!

...i do want to say tho, all this benefit does come with side effects- evidently my personal load of halides must be fairly heavy, becoz ive had pretty significant detox effects every nite. its wierd, i start the day feeling great- well, first getting up is still hard, but now its only taking about an hour to get going instead of most of the morning. id say a 50% improvement- im happy with it! then once my energy kicks in, its been lasting all day which is just really great. in the evenings tho, from about 4:30pm, the ill feeling sets in slight queasiness and a frontal headache with eye pain, sensory overload, & itching that just all gradually gets worse until i cant stand it anymore and go to bed. so i want to say it hasnt all been fun and easy. i was a bit concerned about maybe it being the borax itself, but that doesnt seem to be the case- im not using nearly enough to be toxic. and it fits the symptoms of halide detox to a tee.

here's a link to a page i found really helpful & informative: www.tldp.com/issue/202/Notes_Fluorine.htmespecially the physical description under "general description"- sounds just like me (especially the wierd dark 'zombie' circles!) and the comment at the end that states that the greatest amount of fluoride excretion occurs in the evenings... which would correspond with what i am experiencing, i think

i am looking forward to these next 3 days off to see how things continue to progress, before i continue on to Round3... i am also considering adding a few drops each day of Black Walnut tincture, to replace needed Iodine- hopefully this will help prevent the non-beneficial halides from building back up again!

bo'nana, where are you buying the borax and what is the name of the product? I have to be so careful of contaminants that I would be afraid to try generic borax products, but I really want to try this.

i am just using ordinary 20Mule Team Borax off the laundry shelf- its advertised as being "99.5% pure"... its makers say the missing half percent is "only residuals left over from mining". ...i know- scary- but, it seems like the one most people (including Ted) at EarthClinic are using with no problems and its by far the cheapest ive found. i think im ok with it so far, not having any of my usual side effects anyway. just what i described which i really do think is from halide excretion becoz of how it gets worse at nite and disappears during the day. i would think if it were from something in the borax it would be pretty constant.

ok, ive now finished up Round3 with the Borax & am starting on Round4... and so far so good

Benefits: Much better skin! Eczema almost totally gone, just minor flaking where the worst patch was & no more flares from starchy carbs, hooray... Nasal Fissure has remained completely healed for over a week now... Digestion much much better... much more regular, IBS flares only on the off-days now & everything comes out actually looking, well, Normal (sorry to be gross)... Metabolism seems to have increased some- with all the special foods im attempting to heal my system with, i seem to be taking in 2-300 more calories than before yet no weight gain... i am sleeping more soundly at night and tho mornings still difficult, its not impossible to get going like it was, its at least doable now... this one may or not be related, but the scars from those 3 warts i killed off with ACV awhile back have suddenly faded & close to disappeared, and today i noticed the 'leathery' feel of my heels is much less as well. best of all- all, let me say ALL of my candida symptoms have vanished. WOW! nose, throat, digestion, everything. foods i couldnt consider for the last couple months are no longer causing the trouble, i can have toast again, or ordinary crackers, or even blue corn chips, with no digestive upset or skin reactions- what a relief! ive discovered i can even enjoy a little cow cheese again and thats caused problems for at least a couple years. at this point, the only recent sensitivities that are still troubling me are refined sugars like cane crystals or maple syrup or sweet bakery goodies- still too rich. and i still cant do white or yellow corn, (blue corn is different somehow). not really craving any of that kind of stuff too much anymore tho

Drawbacks/SideEffects: still very overstimulated, jumpy, edgy, easily irritated at nite, usually with a dull frontal headache & eyestrain, light & sound seem too much, the kids drive me nuts with their usual loud childishness from about 6pm on (tho i seem to be having better tolerance in the mornings at least). Drinking lots of water does help. right now, my skin is itching & crawling, it almost feels electrical... something new that only started this round. and i seem to be developing some "halogenoderma" bumps (not pimples, just bumpy areas) on my chin, forehead, & back of my neck/scalp where collar rubs. i remember having these kind of bumps when i was a kid, of course i had no idea what they might have been from back then... i expect it is my body's effort to push the fluoride/bromide out anywhere it can, and of course next to the liver/kidneys, our skin is our greatest avenue of detox. Still having increased issues with short term memory... scaring meself the way i leave the stove or the water running! really hoping that starts to improve soon. Forgetting how to spell things sometimes & making lots of silly mistakes in my writing, so having to be extra careful to edit my goofs. Tongue getting tangled around words quite abit on this round also. Still having increased muscle fatigue & bone pain, especially one spot in my lower back- thats the worst really, the pain keeps catching me off guard & sometimes takes my breath away when i move wrong- but again, its got to be detox becoz i didnt have this problem a month ago. ive read that fluoride concentrates in the spine, so it would make sense that there might be pain associated with getting it 'sucked out'... but im ordering TriSalts based on Debs comments and hoping that replacing calcium might be the solution... calcium carbonate is also said to bind with fluoride & help pass it out of the body in an inert rather than acidic form, so hoping it should help with the other side effects too. ive never done well with calcium in the past, but, i dont think ive ever taken a calcium supplement that wasnt loaded with fillers... so, looking forward to seeing how the TriSalts go

i guess thats it for now gize... will post another update next week how about you, kristy? sara? have either of you begun experimenting with borax yet?

I'm just reading this now. I have never heard of this with the boras...internal? external? I have to read more. Trying to get off long term use of ibuprofen...I think that's done major damage, but i've been in serious pain anytime I try to quit. I've been able to back off from 6-9 a day to 3 or so, but now I might halve them for a bit before I can totally get off them. Researching Iron as I've been having palpitations which I think are from my low ferritin levels...Tx for all the good info. Hope you are doing well!

Hi Bo-Nana, I have been reading through the posts and I am right in alignment with issues that you are all having. I have candida/leaky gut. I am absolutely exhausted every single day and I have extreme chills and hair loss. I am 24 and I am truly tired of living. Before feeling like this starting a year ago, I was the most happy and outgoing person. As well as optimistic. Now I cry every day because I just want to be how I was. I am seeing a naturopath and had a food allergy test. I've eliminated all of my problem foods and eat very basic. I take lots of supplements that are formulated for me by the naturopath. I drink a ton of water. And I feel little to no improvement. I started this about 4 months ago and I feel like giving up. I don't know what to do. I feel like walking death. I am cold to the touch, pale with chills and EXTREMELY tired. What is this Borax treatment. I'm willing to try anything. Thank you so much.

Nina, your supplements are most likely giving you trouble. I once helped a young mother who was taking 50 capsules of supplements a day that her naturopath had prescibed. She was down to eating brown rice and water and was afraid she was beginning to react to them. I told her about all the glutamate present in gelcaps and the fillers, binders and coatings that contain glutamate. She decided to give them up and she felt amazing in a few weeks. She is very healthy today and very vigilant about avoid MSG and its hidden sources. Please look more carefully at any processed foods you may be eating, including ones from health food stores. There is a lot of information here, and at our site at www.msgmyth and in our book.

Obviously whatever program you are on is not working. Keep a diary of what you are eating, drinking and taking and when, and how you are feeling. A pattern should begin to emerge as to what works and what doesn't. Feel free to experiment. Trust how your body feels and reacts. The doctors don't know everything.

hi alyson... many of us on this board can certainly relate to the fear & frustration you express!

i am very sorry that you have been hit so young- but as was also mentioned to margaret in one of her recent posts, the fact that all your symptoms have come on so suddenly is actually a major clue in your sleuthing. Roy offers very good advice: if you havent allready begun keeping a detailed journal, it really is essential to helping you track down your personal poisons and triggers.

and Deb's warning about supplements is soooooo true. ive also experienced the same thing repeatedly, nearly every formula ive ever tried has brought immediate relief only to be followed by a graual decline in health that has frequently left me worse off than if id never started the supplement in the first place!

so-called "super foods" too- SOY for example nearly killed me before i figured out that it was ruining my ability to digest anything- now i am stuck with permanent damage... i always tell anyone i think might listen that modern processed soy is a dangerous poison and should be avoided in any form. if you do a search by author you will find more details in many of my previous posts. and if you also look up "kristy", she has posted a wealth of information on Corn avoidance as she discovered it was the main thing responsible for wreaking havoc with her own family's health.

candida/leaky gut truly complicates things becoz once the gut has been damaged to this level, the confused, poisoned body can start treating virtually any food like another toxin. when i started descending into this state a few months ago, it seemed like every week i began reacting to yet another perfectly ordinary food that id never had trouble with before. ...thankfully, once the gut is able to mend to the point where permeability is no longer a problem, those sensitivities usually do vanish.

but why have you developed candida & leaky gut in the first place?? unraveling that mystery is going to be critical to your healing process- which is why keeping that E.I. Diary is so essential.

to answer your question about Borax, i began using the protocol outlined by Ted on EarthClinic after my own detective work led me to the conclusion that my sudden first-time-ever outbreak of perioral dermatitis/facial eczema had been caused by fluoride poisoning (and again, if you look up my old posts by author, you will find a lot more details about that) a wonderful benefit of following Ted's borax protocol has been the unexpected disappearance of most of my candida/leaky gut symptoms & sensitivities.

but i want to emphasize, that fluoride detox has NOT been fun or easy- some weeks my whole body aches, other weeks i am so overstimulated i am ready to crawl out of my skin. there are a lot of side-effects of having poisonous halides sucked out of your bones & tissues, and you would need to do a lot of investigating before you decide that this is the best route for you in your current condition!

before i moved on to this particular strategy, i had allready: >eliminated Msg/Fga- 6mos to a year prior >eliminated Soy- 2 to 3 years prior, giving my gi tract a chance to more or less recover from many of the imbalances and deficiencies caused by soy >improved digestive function using herbal bitters and probiotics off & on (which may be why i saw such rapid improvement in the most recent round of candida/leaky gut issues) >resolved iron-deficiency anemia & improved b-complex/minerals imbalances >discovered sensitivities to & eliminated Sulphates/Sulphites/Sulphides/Sulphonates (synthetic sulpha anything!) in both foods & personal items (hair care, soap, etc) >"" "" ...Phosphates, Carrageenan, Xanthan Gum, & "natural flavorings"

as you can imagine, this has been a long process of trial & error. some weeks are better than other weeks, & i think for me it is just going to be like that. you are young & strong and stand a very good chance of healing completely- but you need to track down & get rid of the source of your symptoms- your body is reacting as tho it has been poisoned, and personally i think that is a very good way to start looking at it. what is it that is poisoning YOU??

you said you are seeing a naturopath, i have found them to be very sympathetic and a great help in getting a number of tests done to help identify the underlying problems. some issues of course do not show up on any test, but others are readily identifiable- if you are willing and able to pay out of pocket. unfortunately, big pharma & big insurance do not generally approve any testing that will not result in money flowing to their pockets. so there is personal expense involved- but i have to say that in my family's experience, the money we have spent to identify and eliminate things making us ill has been more than worth the freedom of staying off prescription rx that often does nothing but mask the symptoms of the illness.

there have been others, but these 3 i would swear by & have recommended to many people. if you have not had these done, please consider at least discussing them with your naturopath. get off the supplements if you can, most have fillers which are responsible for a lot of reactions, besides confusing your body with artificially elevated nutrient levels which can create new imbalances. go to earth clinic.com & look up everything they have on fluoride/bromide detox, borax remedies, etc... research it carefully before you make any decisions. keep a detailed E.I. Journal & put in it every single thing you can think of- do keep posting your questions & discoveries here. it is why we are all on this board together and do learn to listen to your body, it instinctively knows many things that may or may not be clinically measurable in double-blind studies. yes for a time it will feel like your whole life is revolving around illness & obsessing about why/what/when/where/how etc etc etc... but i promise that in time, if you keep at it faithfully, your light bulb moments will start to come, you will realize that you have discovered much and are a long way from where you were today. and you will discover that you have a lot of encouragement to offer others who are suffering also, becoz of your own experiences and the wisdom gained thru these trials. prayers, blessings- and a great big HUG from me to you!

ok, thats enough to confuse you thoroughly! i really mean it, be sure to read everything you can find before you decide to proceed. i am feeling a lot better in a number of important ways... i am definitely more functional than in a long time. but it hasnt been easy & i suspect there may not be as much latitude for making mistakes as with some remedies. you will have to be your own doctor, unless you can find an ortho-iodo-specialist with a lot of experience (good luck with that). i dont at all feel that i really understand what i am doing except in the very general sense that i am attempting to detoxify one type of poisonous substance by using others that are much more beneficial yet still potentially dangerous. scary thought. but let me know any discoveries you make or questions you have, together i am sure we will have greater wisdom than each on our own

The info. is greatly appreciated. I am currently battling the yeast issue. Had one episode of skin break outs..that's kind of why I sat up and noticed when you mentioned about breaking out. Currently, I trying to fix a reverse T3 issue which shows out as normal thyroid tests but I have all the symptoms of hypothyroidism. I do think the my thyroid is factoring in with my symptoms, I have noticed some of my leaky gut problems disappearing as I get my thyroid more back in line...Can't help but wonder at the cascading effects of MSG poisoning and the myriad of medical conditions brought on by the MSG in our foods.