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I feel responsible because I didn't address it the first time. I invited someone back to the class knowing what happened. I doubt anyone will accuse me of being the bad guy here but I still feel like I brought this ont he class (with help) which is why I feel so strongly abount correcting the situation.

[...]

Why is she continuing? I don't know. By her nature shes shy. She has a jerk of a coworker she deals with but refuses to confront him. I guess some people just hate confrontation and drama. If I had to guess why she continues in class she loves aikido and for the time being the pros outweight the cons. She's hoping it will go away.

This is a really nice post!

First, Tom28, everyone will happily jump in and tell you and your friend how you are not to blame. Regardless of the truth of the statement, perhaps particularly from a legal standpoint, you still have an internal conflict or two that you have to see. So may your friend, and so may your instructor. Secondly, you said, "I don't know." You follow with an "if I had to guess," but you're open to fact that you may not know. Keeping that sense of doubt keeps your mind clear of the assumptions and guesses that may cloud the issue.

You were off-balanced by the situation and your own part in creating it. You lost your center, but you're regaining it. Once you're centered---once you've identified the different thoughts and feelings that have complicated any response and you see the for what they are---you'll see the situation clearly and you'll be free to act without regret.

Tom28, from all we discussed I can't really see that she is being a victim. More like at worse at this point she is being mildly annoyed by a Sensei who is trying to pick up on her like a bad 70's movie. If an instructor of a martial art or exercise class says or does something that truly offends me I leave the class A.S.A.P. and don't come back. No matter how much I like the activity. If I am victimized I don't stay to be further victimize. Even if she is shy, being shy doesn't mean you can't stop going to the class.

Therefore, really this isn't a women being victimized by a evil sexist sensei. I don't think the energy should be on that issue. I have a feeling the women isn't as weak, helpless, shy, down-truly and vulnerable oppressed1950's house wife screaming for help as some see her. That is an injustice when a situation is turned into some things more then it is. It is a cry wolf situation. That is my concern. I am about keeping the situation in perspective. Women today our very different from those oppressed stereotypes of the housewives, Brontes, and Dickensons of yore.

There is nothing like stirring up a mob into a hysteria out for blood.

If you join a Aikido class and pay around $90.00 a class, and you are going to have an interpersonal relationship with a teacher; where you have one on one personal attention like that of a personal trainer, etc. you're not going to stay with it if you don't get along with that person. Essentially, you fire them, that is your right and choice. They don't hire you, you hire them. Shy or not, firing them is as easy as not coming back. This applies to everyone in that dojo.

Will this situation being discussed on the net of the sensei picking up on a second women will stop the sensei's behavior, will it embarrass him, or get him to change? No. At worse he will be disliked more by people who already dislike him, and those who are easily persuaded who read the thread will dislike him too. But, none of those people are or will be his students. And that is the whole point.

Now if he starts hitting on a minor that is a whole different story.

Ya know, it is funny how many of the same people in the Clint George thread where quick not to convict him of his crime of molesting a child. Yet there are people here who read a about a situation with an adult women discribed as being harrassed by her sensei condemning him to the gallows. There are many similarities in both situations where people shouldn't be quick to convict, but they are very quick to convict based on almost nothing but a third party account. Clint George was well known and once respected in the Aikido community, his actions against a child was a crime, yet many people had his back. Maybe fame has it's privileges. The crime this sensei is guilty of is no being famous.

I think the difference is that this is an anonymous post about a situation with no names attached. If "Tom28" had named the parties involved, you are right that more circumspection would be called for. Since this is essentially an abstract situation that we all understand is from one person's point of view, it's a little different...

For my part, participation is this thread is not about fueling the OP with my dislike of the situation, but trying to offer advice to someone, i.e. "if I were seeing it like you're seeing it..."

He sounds like a very dense individual or someone who just does not care. This would be, in the eyes of almost any judge, a clear-cut case of sexual harassment. It is also assault to touch some one in an inappropriate manner. Students should not expect to be fondled or groped in a learning environment whether they are paying for the class or not. What would O'Sensei's response to this in his dojo?

I think the difference is that this is an anonymous post about a situation with no names attached. ... an abstract situation that we all understand is from one person's point of view, it's a little different...

Jeremy to speak to what you said first, it really isn't an abstract because it is about real people in a real situation. Tom28, the woman and the sensei and the dojo aren't fictional characters to illustrate something. Being anonymous here isn't going to prevent the dojo or the sensei who Tom28 is, or the woman. It simply means it makes it harder to people to sue if it is anonymous.

As I established, the sensei is a real person and he isn't anonymous to everyone. One poster calls for similar harassment laws in the dojo you see in the work place, and clearly despises him. Another post who makes it know how much the sensei is despised by the poster uses him as the poster child to say all men are pigs. Simply to name a few posters who posted assuming the worst of the sensei. Where is the love?

And it is respected that you give advice, but to whom? Has anyone given advice to the sensei? Because we assume automatically from a narrow, limited, and simple snap judgement perspective she is a victim and he is the victimizer. All based on a third person account. Tom28 is the one that people (some have) should be addressing. But the focus of this thread isn't his issue, but rather looking at the woman as a victim and the sensei as a sexist pig victimizer. The latter shouldn't even be the focus, but it is because people make snap judgements base on what they read with little examination.

If the sensei in question was a well known shihan or someone like Clint George (his Aikido background), people would be going to bat for the unnamed sensei, the same people who are attacking him now. Am no Aikido historian, but wasn't there a well known popular sensei who did hit on all the women and people allowed it to happen by turn a blind eye because he was a famous teacher?

The mindset of people who permit a famous sensei to get away with one thing, and where a lesser known sensei whose actions are from a third party POV can jump to conclusions and hang a person on the net instantly. The latter a big concern with the discussion on Clint George to maintain the innocent until proven guilt. But that is of little concern with an unknown sensei described by a third party in an anonymous thread where it is strongly assumed and played out that the women is the victim and the man is the monster. Being in this forum gives the same people who where concerned about Clint George being accused and an opportunity for a field day of assumptions and twisting of this sensei being a monster victimizing women horribly, a crime against all women where he should be locked up and the key thrown away. Where a mob frenzy can be pitched up to a fever level and this sensei can be an example to all men as he is crucified on the net. Maybe that is the importance of having all of it being anonymous.

The world has never yet seen a truly great and virtuous nation because in the degradation of woman the very fountains of life are poisoned at their source. ~Lucretia Mott
Some how this is what I have been trying to say.
Mary

So Mary, does that mean it's ok to condemn a man because it is based on a third party's POV? It isn't the reason why there are courts and trials?

Oh yea, but I forgot this sensei is to be used as an example of the degradation and the lack of rights of women some 128 year ago (Mott died in 1880 at 87 years old).

Mary just to update you, society has moved on, and drastically has changed since the 1800's. Women not only are allowed to vote but hold high political and corporate offices. We no longer have a slave trade. Our president-elect well has forefathers who where slaves.
Times have changed since 1800's and even since 1960. But what hasn't changed is assumptions and character assassination.

I could have a gay male sensei who comes on to me in the same way as Tom28 has described here, and I found it just as offensive, and discriminating as you do in the Tom28 case. With my reaction against it being the same way as yours in the Tom28 case, as well. Having the same drive for justice for all men not to be degraded sexually by a gay man, as you do for women, I would be condemned and shamed as a homophobic. Does Mott's quote include me, or just you. Please don't consider me a male chauvinist sexist pig because I am not going to assassinate a man's character based on his approach to women in 2008, or diminish the worth of a woman's character (as being a helpless victim who needs to be saved) because a third party's view point. The issue is about Tom28, and not about anything else.

If the sensei in question was a well known shihan or someone like Clint George (his Aikido background), people would be going to bat for the unnamed sensei, the same people who are attacking him now.

Get thee to thine nearest Logic class.

As pointed out, you have twice committed the logical fallacy of False Analogy.

When you attempt to compare this case with the Clint George case. The two incidents may have similarities, but the point at which you compare them, they are significantly different. EVERYONE who read the thread on Clint George knew the name and perhaps reputation of the accused teacher. Very few, if any, who have read this thread know the name or reputation of the accused teacher. And since your argument hinges on the fact that famous and respected teachers are given a little slack, you have no argument in this case.

Moreover, there are clearly differences between your analogy of a gay teacher making a pass at you and what Tom28 describes. Indeed, the condition of women in our society has improved, but rarely are men oggled, whistled at, or seen as sex objects as women often are. Likewise, for men, gray hair is distinguished and wrinkles add character. Our society may have changed significantly, but on the whole, men still have a good deal compared to women.

One poster calls for similar harassment laws in the dojo you see in the work place...

Can you point out a reason or two why what constitutes acceptable behavior regarding sexual harassment should be less rigorous in an Aikido dojo than in the workplace?

By the way Buck, from what I have read of the posts in this thread Tom28's description of events is being accepted as accurate axiomatically in order to facilitate a discussion of the specific behavior being described. The fact that real people may or may not be involved is irrelevant.

What I find most troubling however is your contention that because times have supposedly changed (we'll ignore the treatment of women in the middle east just to keep the playing field level), that it's somehow ok for someone in a position of authority to single out a person of a specific gender and treat her/him with less respect than they would the rest of the group. Using the fact that the person so treated is always free to leave the group to justify the behavior and basically ignore the one instituting the behavior is twisting the logic at best.

There's another side to situations such as this. I was involved in a situation (mentioned in another thread in this forum) regarding something which caused me to be ex-communicated from my old club, leaving me with no choice but to start out on my own.

To cut a long story short, an instructor was arrested at my old club for harassment / stalking of another student and they (the club) wanted to brush it under the carpet and refused to speak to me about it (I was perhaps one of about 4 people that were aware of the situation). They were happy for this instructor to still teach adults and children -- and let me make this point clear -- he admitted the charges -- this is not a case of innocent until proven guilty and the case was serious enough for a custodial sentence to be a very real possibility. I had witnessed the stalking first-hand but did not actually realise it was as serious as it was until the Police became involved and entered his house. I was called off the mat one night and told to go and speak to the head of the dojo... I walked out of the dojo that night. There was some attempt at resolution but to be honest, I was told I in no uncertain terms that I would have to apologise for my actions -- the only action I undertook, apart from walking out of the club that night, was to inform the governing body of the situation for which I received personal thanks for approaching them and doing the right thing (they put it to the club that this person should not be allowed to remain teaching or training). I was later allowed back to train without apologising however when I had a meeting with the dojo head and all appeared to be okay for us both to move forward I also mentioned I felt I had to start my own club but still wanted to remain a member or visitor of her club to maintain links with my friends. This was all okay until I got wind of a meeting called in hushed terms about me! I returned home on the day of the meeting to find a hand delivered letter stating I was not welcome to train there any longer and to not darken their door again. In the meeting people were told that should they wish to come and train with me they would have to leave. Thankfully some of the people did leave and did come along to help me out. We refer to them all as ‘the others' now and laugh about it but I came very close to turning away from aikido forever over this.

So, that's the short version! I guess I'm trying to say that doing the right thing can have serious repercussions on all concerned and to this day, no one from my old club is allowed to train with me.

Would I do the same if I had to go through this again or could take time back? Yes.

By the way Buck, from what I have read of the posts in this thread Tom28's description of events is being accepted as accurate axiomatically in order to facilitate a discussion of the specific behavior being described. The fact that real people may or may not be involved is irrelevant.

... something goes awry here ...

Quote:

What I find most troubling however is your contention that because times have supposedly changed (we'll ignore the treatment of women in the middle east just to keep the playing field level), that it's somehow ok for someone in a position of authority to single out a person of a specific gender and treat her/him with less respect than they would the rest of the group. Using the fact that the person so treated is always free to leave the group to justify the behavior and basically ignore the one instituting the behavior is twisting the logic at best.

Perhaps we should treat Buck's assertion as axiomatic, presume that he sees the issue clearly, and not challenge him. Does he not deserve that respect?

Perhaps we should treat Mary's assertion as axiomatic, presume that she sees the issue clearly, and not challenge her. Does she not deserve that respect?

Ron R., I am not going to debate you over your opinion, that would be silly. I will however call your opinion into question if you are making snap judgements, or attacking a person's character based on anything but first hand facts, and experiences. There is alt of assumptions being made about this woman, and her sensei. More heavily damaging I feel is toward the woman who has not addressed this discussion. Why make her out to be an insecure, helpless, female ripe for victimization when we don't know if that is true or not. Is that fair to her? Or our we just making her out to be something she isn't just to push our own views or agenda. Or dislike of someone we may or may not know.

If this sensei has committed a crime, he could be arrested and go to court for it. If this sensei hasn't committed a crime and the description of his behavior is offensive to some here then he hasn't committed a crime. Do we put everyone in jail who offends us? No we don't, some would like that- their really a little nuts. Rather we put them in the worse light possible in the public eye, attacking their character, say the right things to get people worked up into a wild hysteria - mob mentality carrying pitch forks and a hangman's noose- for the court of public opinion. Is this how societies works?

As I said before, you're not hired by a dojo. You hire the dojo, and for any reason you can fire that dojo and stop going. Not every dojo fits everyone. And there isn't one dojo in the world. And if the dojo has criminal activity in it and you are victimized by it, who in the hell would stay around when that happens, who enjoys being victimized over and over again, I don't think anyone. Even if you are uncomfortable or offended you may not want to stay depending on the level. Again you are not married to the sensei or the members/dojo. The dojo doesn't rule your life, or control your life or livelihood. It is a recreational activity, not a job where you are paid, the sensei isn't your boss, you pay for the class with your hard earned money. You can leave anytime for any reason. That gives you the power, both men and women alike. The sex of a person has nothing to do with it, as they both have equal power to equally exercise it in the manner they want. It is both their right equally.

Got to get back to work, gotta meet with the boss, being a top exec. she expect people not to be late.

Perhaps we should treat Buck's assertion as axiomatic, presume that he sees the issue clearly, and not challenge him. Does he not deserve that respect?

Perhaps we should treat Mary's assertion as axiomatic, presume that she sees the issue clearly, and not challenge her. Does she not deserve that respect?

Twisting the logic at best?

[Offered with respect.]

Joe -

Tom28, being the only person presently posting on this thread who actually witnessed the incident(s), has provided a framework for discussion. His description of the events comprises the framework. If we're going to have any discussion regarding the (Buck please note) behavior being described and its consequences then we must do so within the framework as presented. Tom28's original post is kind of a meta-post in that it is the seed from which the discussion grows. It follows, therefore, that all posts subsequent to the original post are not part of the set of axioms, do not have to accepted at face value and questioning of or rejecting of does not constitute any actual or implied lack of respect for the poster.

It follows, therefore, that all posts subsequent to the original post are not part of the set of axioms, do not have to accepted at face value and questioning of or rejecting of does not constitute any actual or implied lack of respect for the poster.

As a mathematician, I'm burdened by the definition of "axiom" and am tempted to challenge what may be false conclusions based upon it

But, it's simpler and more effective to say that while I believe I understand what you are saying, but I do not agree with it. I would hope that in this environment, just like on the mats, we can challenge one another's assumptions as well as the conclusions safely.

Without aligning or not aligning with Buck's argument, I will say we seem to have the following in common: We are both citing Tom28's perception of the events as an integral piece of the puzzle. Buck seems to begin at that point and argue that we cannot draw reasonable conclusions based upon one man's uncorroborated account of events. I am more or less doing the same, perhaps going a little further asking both Tom28 and as well as discussion participants to first check one's assumptions and one's perceptions to see if they are unobstructed.

Let's suppose I start a thread:

Quote:

Joe McParland wrote:

Ron is a fool. What should I do?

PS: Please don't post if you disagree with me.

I certainly hope someone would say:

Quote:

Reasonable Person wrote:

Hey, Joe- I don't know Ron, but do you mind if I ask some questions about why you think he is?

and that I wouldn't respond:

Quote:

Joe McParland wrote:

Hey! That's not relevant! I said he's a fool!!! Get back on topic or get off the thread!!!

where "Please don't post if you disagree with me" isn't automatically promoted to an axiom. After all, if we do take Tom28's statements as clear-sighted, indisputable facts, then we must also accept this assessment of his instructor's character---(summarizing) he's a good guy who just gets a little silly around the women---and strike anyone's challenge of that point. That is, the instructor is not harassing anyone, victimizing anyone, or doing anything that commentators have brought to the table. If you have stated, or have thought to have stated, to Tom28 something similar to "How can you be blind to it!" then you have violated his framework.

When people are honest with regard to what they really know, what they think they know, and especially with what they do not know, a lot of fog clears up and you can determine how to act.

I'm guilty of carrying a banner here, too, by the way. Mine isn't women's rights, men's rights, victim's rights, or even victimizer's rights or the like. Mine says, "See clearly." Call it a meta-banner. I try to look at things like this clearly and I do often fail, but with practice (aikido and others) I believe I'm improving. By the way, I try to participate making sure I am seeing clearly without carrying the "See clearly" banner itself, but sometimes fail there, too.

Tom28 said, "My sensei IS a good guy. He's not a bully in my opinion at all. He's jut one of those guys who at inappropriate around women and doesn't realize what he's saying is too much/too far. Some guys just turn into different people near women, we all work with guys like that.

My goal is to create a balanced training environment where everyone is happy, enjoying their training and lastly attracting new students for me to learn from. His actions are alienating half the population and pissing off the other half. Know what I mean?"

As we see the real issue isn't about women being treated poorly in the middle east by men. Or that all male sensei's are sexist criminals victimizing all their women that walk through their dojos that this sensei is suppose to represent.

The true issue is Tom28 want to create a dojo where everyone is happy, and new students are attracted. Where the sensei's isn't pissing people off with his behavior, despite him being a good guy except his preferred manner with trying to pick up a couple women in the dojo. So really, whose dojo is it? Tom28's or the sensei.

Good question here is does Tom28 who had to stop going to the dojo for a while because he was busy has the right to take over another person's dojo, and change it to what he feels it should be? And not by a women who is being victimized by a sensei where others on the net condemning him as a predatory male sexist animal. Thus, harassment laws should be in place to protect a helpless women (not girl) from all males who are thus monster sexist predators because he doesn't say the right thing to the right woman. Because all women are oppressed and helpless and are without any of their rights, and need others to rush to their aid. This should bother you that is the real issue being buried in favor of this situation twisted into a flagship that attacks and condemns all men. It bothers me, on many levels.

I think it's time for you to look for another school. Honestly tell your instructor why you are leaving. And honestly tell your friend that you have warned her enough, and that you can do no more for her. She's an adult, and responsible for her choice. Wish her luck, and leave.

This has been a very educational thread.
Personally I don't like being called a girl..I am 51. I have 3 offspring. My girl days are done...actually a crone is more accurate.
When I used to teach self-defense it was interesting to hear men's perspectives and women perspectives about the same things. Some men excuse inappropiate behavior.
Joe ...zenish or not...I don't see why you need to be mean.

umm...what where the women's excuses back then? When I was a part of a women's self defense class the interest was low and not many women where interested. It was headed by a women and flopped. Not because of the quality of the class or the instructor, but because of lack of participation. When polled many women didn't feel the need or have the interest in the activity. If you offered women two things for free a self defense class or a free classes to the currently hottest gym exercise class for women like Zumba or Pliates, what do you think most women would choose? What do you think most women would choose a free all women Aikido class or a Pliates class (of course a male or two in it)?

I think we really need to move on to the issues of does a unhappy student has the right to change the dojo if he or she is unhappy with the sensei and how the sensei runs things. Can students mutany?

Mary, you have my absolute apologies if I was mean. Although I do try to ensure that anything I say here---which may happen in the spirit of deep irimi with atemi and kiai---is in the spirit of mutual respect, I'm not above error. As I noted to you privately earlier in this thread, if you ever have a doubt regarding my meaning or intent, please let me know and I will be happy to explain.

I think we really need to move on to the issues of does a unhappy student have the right to change the dojo if he or she is unhappy with the sensei and how the sensei runs things. Can students mutiny?

That is an interesting question, and one that probably deserves its own thread. How accountable is a teacher to that teacher's students and their perception of the sensei's teaching methods and personality?

And assumptions about sex and gender of teachers and students would also be a really interesting thread - it's something I think about often, not because I've seen victims or monsters or pitchfork-waving peasants; rather, because I think that I have seen signs of both female and male aikidoka sometimes discounting the value of a female teacher's aikido, or being more reluctant to work with a female rather than male aikidoka of unknown skill at a seminar.

While these two themes certainly inform the discussion of the main topic of this thread (more than I had thought at the beginning!), I'm not sure that they are the main points. From my reading, anyway, it seems like the main questions are: how can one gauge the impropriety of an instructor's behaviour; with whom does the responsibility for addressing this behaviour lie and how should it be done; how much and in what ways is it okay for one student to interpose themselves in another student's problems with a dojo, dojocho, or instructor, and finally, I guess, when do you leave a dojo where you feel uncomfortable if there is no alternative place to practise?

Those other threads would be good, too, though.... maybe I'll start one...

My goal is to create a balanced training environment where everyone is happy, enjoying their training and lastly attracting new students for me to learn from. His actions are alienating half the population and pissing off the other half. Know what I mean?"

From reading what Tom28 said, to me it says that Tom28 is unhappy with one aspect of his sensei's behavior. Therefore, Tom28's goal is to change the dojo into what he feels is best. For me, I see that this is the real issue and what to focus on in the thread, does Tom28 (or anyone) have the right to achieve his goal for the dojo? I was being funny using the word mutiny, guess I should have used a smiley..opps.

Sorry for the confusion. I am glad though something positive did come from it.

From reading what Tom28 said, to me it says that Tom28 is unhappy with one aspect of his sensei's behavior. Therefore, Tom28's goal is to change the dojo into what he feels is best. For me, I see that this is the real issue and what to focus on in the thread, does Tom28 (or anyone) have the right to achieve his goal for the dojo?...

I see what you mean...that's a weird issue. On one hand it could be something (to use egregious examples) like "OMG I hate all that bowing and Japanese language", and we'd probably all agree that the member trying to change the dojo is way out of line. But on the other hand it could be something like "wow that's the third time this year year sensei broke someone's arm because they weren't being responsive enough uke", and most of us might think that that sort of thing should change. So much behaviour is not so obvious though, and, as you rightly point out, may or may not be in the eye of the beholder.

I think that a member of even so starkly hierarchical an organization as a dojo has a right to agitate for a change that they feel strongly about. What if, for example, your sensei is Japanese, and makes it clear that he expects the female students to keep the dojo tidy and launder his gi. I would feel comfortable confronting him about that. I wouldn't be weird about it, or leave in a huff right away, but if he were unable to change his attitude about that I would leave eventually after trying to change the dojo.

To return to Tom28's problem, if he truly believes (and it's certainly his duty to be certain and not to jump to hasty conclusions) that the instructor is acting outside of the boundaries of good behaviour, I would support his right to try to change the culture of the dojo. If he is totally wrong about the situation, he'll leave and nothing will change. If not, then maybe others will agree with him and the dojo will try to change (or split, like John Burn's situation).

Good question here is does Tom28 who had to stop going to the dojo for a while because he was busy has the right to take over another person's dojo, and change it to what he feels it should be? And not by a women who is being victimized by a sensei where others on the net condemning him as a predatory male sexist animal. Thus, harassment laws should be in place to protect a helpless women (not girl) from all males who are thus monster sexist predators because he doesn't say the right thing to the right woman. Because all women are oppressed and helpless and are without any of their rights, and need others to rush to their aid. This should bother you that is the real issue being buried in favor of this situation twisted into a flagship that attacks and condemns all men. It bothers me, on many levels.

Philip,

Sometimes a shovel is a shovel. He acts rudely towards women, it happens. Probably a lot.
The less number of students the school has the less number of people I can train with and learn Aikido from.
If something happens and a school gets shut down I stop training Aikido.
That's selfish of me but it's one of the reasons I'm sticking my nose into it.
As I mentioned in other posts I also feel guilty for not stopping it when it happened to my other friend, I feel bad that other students are subjected to it and I feel bad my friend is now in that position.

I don't think I want to take over the dojo. Do I want the dojo to be the best possible place it can be? Of course.

And regardless of where it happens harassment is wrong. If someone was being harassed on here by a Mod say and I found out about it would I get involved and do what I can to stop it? (even if it's just informing another mod) Yes I would. I'm not trying to take over the forum- when you see something that's wrong however you fix it. That's all.

Sidebar. I take it you are Mary have a disagreement stemming from another thread?