I can't argue with a fear about how the person will feel. The drive to convert should be a fire from within. If the person feels slighted that the establishment s/he wishes to join has a specific standard then there is nothing anyone can do.

As to the issue of the Israeli rabbinate and its acceptance of American conversions, I can't speak. The political quabble here is not a matter of religion but about human pettiness. To lay it at the feet of Jewish law is to miss the specifics of the current issue.

The fact is that there are different standards for Reform and Orthodox conversions. But the issue is not one of "nullifying belief" anymore than telling someone who has lived in America for years and knows the constitution that he isn't American until he passes the citizenship test no matter how much he thinks of himself as an American, and no matter how much more he knows than a born American.

Your concluding paragraph shows some real anger and vitriol. That is unnecessary.

The truth of the matter is that Orthodox Judaism is no different from fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam, and the sooner people wake up and sweep these hateful and oppressive ideologies into the trash where they belong the better off we will all be.

Pettiness, turf battles, economics, control issues, egos, what group is free of them?

Just to be clear, I was not saying that anyone here was. I was only reaffirming what ffb said about the problems having more to do with individual pettiness than Jewish law and tradition. There are people in the Orthodox community that are susceptible to these flaws, and they make the news; other streams have them as well.

As far as you being insulted, that was unintended. I do believe, however, that you are judging the entire stream by the few whose pettiness makes the news and not by a personal experience with an orthodox community.

The truth of the matter is that Orthodox Judaism is no different from fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam, and the sooner people wake up and sweep these hateful and oppressive ideologies into the trash where they belong the better off we will all be.

mm....

At this point I don't know what we mean by "Orthodox" any more.

Its a free country, so if people want to be fundamentalists gey gensunterheit. They can believe whatever they want and live however they want but Ill be damned if they can tell ME how to live and believe. So as long as they don't interfere with the law and my rights, I don't care about them one way or the other.

BUT fundamentalists aren't happy with running their own lives and the lives of their own free willl self chosen congregations. They have to stick their noses in other peoples lives, telling people who they can and cant marry and telling women what they can and cant do with their own bodies and so forth.

I have no real issue with orthodox Jews here in the US. I don't bother them and they don't bother me. But Israel is a different matter.

I haven't been to Israel in 20 years, and honestly I have no desire to go there again until they get their act together and establish real separation between synagogue and state. You would think they'd learn from history -- from Jewish history -- that religion and government don't ever mix well.

Oh well. None of this matters in the long run and there's no sense getting worked up over it. :(

The truth of the matter is that Orthodox Judaism is no different from fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam, and the sooner people wake up and sweep these hateful and oppressive ideologies into the trash where they belong the better off we will all be.

How many of you out there agree with this kind of talk? Do you all agree that Orthodox Judaism is no different from fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam, and that Orthodox Jews follow oppressive ideologies and should be swept into the trash where they belong and that we would all be better off?

And you expect polite repartee to such hate speech? What Jews talk about entire Jewish communities with such hate?

Pettiness, turf battles, economics, control issues, egos, what group is free of them?

Just to be clear, I was not saying that anyone here was. I was only reaffirming what ffb said about the problems having more to do with individual pettiness than Jewish law and tradition. There are people in the Orthodox community that are susceptible to these flaws, and they make the news; other streams have them as well.

As far as you being insulted, that was unintended. I do believe, however, that you are judging the entire stream by the few whose pettiness makes the news and not by a personal experience with an orthodox community.

I didn't say I haven't had any personal experience with an Orthodox community. I grew up in what I guess you could call an "Orthodox" community. I just dont have experience with my local O community NOW, for very deliberate reasons. Like the role of women, the priority of religious law and "tradition" vs ethics, and the way other Jews and other religious were/are viewed.

If you really weren't trying to be insulting, then I accept your apology and retract the dentist comment.

Out of curiosity where do you stand on the topic of other "streams." Do you think Reform/Conservative etc. are just as valid and authentic as Orthodox or are they different?

How many of you out there agree with this kind of talk? Do you all agree that Orthodox Judaism is no different from fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam, and that Orthodox Jews follow oppressive ideologies and should be swept into the trash where they belong and that we would all be better off?

And you expect polite repartee to such hate speech? What Jews talk about entire Jewish communities with such hate?

As for what Jews talk about entire Jewish communities with such "hate", here's just a few: Shlomo Amar, Mordechai Eliyahu, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, David Klinghoffer, Chaim Dovid Zwiebel.

And honestly, what is the "hate speech?" I didn't say a thing about "Jews." I only talked about ideologies. You're the one who consistently makes this an issue of persons rather than ideas.

And if you deny that Orthodox Judaism forces people to accept dictated social roles that relegate women to the sidelines of public life solely on their sex, promotes itself as the sole true and authentic way of belief and life, and encourages its adherents to support violent and dangerous political positions regarding the Middle East, then I can see how you might not agree that the three abrahamic fundamentalisms are cut from the same cloth. Which would make it really ironic for you to claim that other people are out of touch with reality.

Finally, I'm not a Jew. Never was and never will be. I'm just a goy and a sheygetz. Like the good people at Chabad teach, I don't have a real soul like Jews, just an animal soul, so what do you expect? :) :) :)