I love all the chant traditions. I couldn't say I liked one more than the other. Prayer is prayer.

The Russian and Greek chanting traditions are motivated by different philosophies (I won't address intermediate forms such as Romanian). Russian chant is choral and focuses on group cohesion. In contrast, Greek tradition has one or a few chanters chanting at a time, antiphonally, and the skill of the individual chanter is highly prized.

As others have pointed out, there are many variations within each tradition. Even within Greece, there are many specific styles of Byzantine chant which may sound very different, and some of them are more representative of tradition than others. Noteworthy local styles include those of the Patriarchal church, Thessaloniki, the islands, Athens, and Constantinople (the Patriarchal church has a different style from the other churches in the city). Of these, the most authentic are the old chanters of the Great Church of Christ, especially Iakovos Nafpliotis. These are the people whom everyone either imitates or pretends to imitate. Mount Athos tends to have the most heavily Western-influenced style.

Generally, performance groups such as the Greek Byzantine Choir are not good standards for Byzantine chant. Their style is very divergent from oral tradition. Capella Romana definitely has a heavy Western influence (which is NOT bad, but is not representative of authentic Byzantine chant). Vatopedi and Simonopetra Monasteries are also very innovative.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I hear people railing about how Byzantine chant is so much holier than Western church music, and their favorite chant "group" is something like Capella Romana. (Not talking about anyone in particular, but I hear this a lot in real life.) Most of these people balk when they hear the actual sound of Eastern chants.

In short, anything you can buy on Amazon is probably way left of center. Chant is for church, not CD players, so if you're imitating something you got on Amazon, that may be the wrong approach.

I hope I haven't made Podkarpatska's finger-scratching nightmare come true.

You have some good points concerning Angelopoulos' choir and musical style in general, but the research he and his mentor Simon Karas, have done and the the effort they have put into finding and analyzing long lost ancient manuscripts, is overwhelming, I respect them for that:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-_XjnF09TI

You have some good points concerning Angelopoulos' choir and musical style in general, but the research he and his mentor Simon Karas, have done and the the effort they have put into finding and analyzing long lost ancient manuscripts, is overwhelming, I respect them for that:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-_XjnF09TI[/quote]

Well, you're on ground zero, and I live across the pond, so your experience means something to me...I'm stuck working from recordings and books, and a handful of live psaltes (albeit some good ones--no one publicly known, though). I generally avoid historical-theoretical discussions, because I am not familiar enough with the literature. My understanding of the whole thing is that in the first half of the last century, there was a whole gaggle of musicologuists, Greek and European, butting heads over what the True Greek Tradition was, and Karas more or less came out on top. I haven't read his book, so I have no positive or negative criticism of it.

I try to keep things centered around piety and oral tradition rather than manuscripts. The research into medieval Byzantine chant is very interesting, though.

Angelopoulos is a bit of a puzzle. The EBX's interpretations seem to have been gradually getting more extreme since they were founded. I'd have to go back and listen to them more, since I haven't for a while.

Again, I'm talking about contemporary practice here, not theory or history.

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

Those are peasants. Whatever musical theory they learned was through oral transmission, a very localized one, to boot.

Behold the beauty of oral transmission!

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

Those are peasants. Whatever musical theory they learned was through oral transmission, a very localized one, to boot.

Behold the beauty of oral transmission!

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Bokšaj or death!

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

Those are peasants. Whatever musical theory they learned was through oral transmission, a very localized one, to boot.

Behold the beauty of oral transmission!

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Bokšaj or death!

Yes, but are you from Presov or Uzhorod? Stuff like that can split a church you know!

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

Those are peasants. Whatever musical theory they learned was through oral transmission, a very localized one, to boot.

Behold the beauty of oral transmission!

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Bokšaj or death!

Yes, but are you from Presov or Uzhorod? Stuff like that can split a church you know!

Uzhorod, of course. That schismatic Toth sings like a Presovite.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

Those are peasants. Whatever musical theory they learned was through oral transmission, a very localized one, to boot.

Behold the beauty of oral transmission!

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Bokšaj or death!

Yes, but are you from Presov or Uzhorod? Stuff like that can split a church you know!

Uzhorod, of course. That schismatic Toth sings like a Presovite.

If you want to go along with the Magyar poseurs, be my guest!

For what its worth to the rest of you - Schultz and I are having fun playing with the sort of arguments which resulted in many towns having four or five Orthodox and/or Greek Catholic churches back in the day. They would argue this stuff, add much rumor and innuendo till the cows came home or the bars closed with great passion and invective and, not unlike certain blogs today, use the print media of their day to sow division, discord and finally schism. We can laugh today at the passions of our grandfathers, but those involved with current internecine disputes should look to the past and try to figure a way through the thickets which does not involve such nonsense.

You have some good points concerning Angelopoulos' choir and musical style in general, but the research he and his mentor Simon Karas, have done and the the effort they have put into finding and analyzing long lost ancient manuscripts, is overwhelming, I respect them for that:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-_XjnF09TI

Well, you're on ground zero, and I live across the pond, so your experience means something to me...I'm stuck working from recordings and books, and a handful of live psaltes (albeit some good ones--no one publicly known, though). I generally avoid historical-theoretical discussions, because I am not familiar enough with the literature. My understanding of the whole thing is that in the first half of the last century, there was a whole gaggle of musicologuists, Greek and European, butting heads over what the True Greek Tradition was, and Karas more or less came out on top. I haven't read his book, so I have no positive or negative criticism of it.

I try to keep things centered around piety and oral tradition rather than manuscripts. The research into medieval Byzantine chant is very interesting, though.

Angelopoulos is a bit of a puzzle. The EBX's interpretations seem to have been gradually getting more extreme since they were founded. I'd have to go back and listen to them more, since I haven't for a while.

Again, I'm talking about contemporary practice here, not theory or history.[/quote]I agree with you, Angelopoulos has become more of a theoretician in the Byzantine Music lately (to put it bluntly, as one psaltis I know has put it, "his chaning nowadays does not emit insence") but his contribution in a deeper understanding of the neumes who had been forgotten (or pushed aside) by the practical chanters, can't be nullified. The golden rule IMHO is to follow the classic interpretation which has been traditioned ('xcuse my neologism) from generation to generation on one hand, and at the same time to not disregard the fresh (and interesting) air Angelopoulos has brought into the *cough*static and moldy*cough* world of Byzantine Music in Greece. It's good that we can judge Angelopoulos harshly but at the same time we should not forget that before Angelopoulos, the norm was to hear polyphonic "I-presume-it's-authentic-western-music-and-if-it's-not-at-least-I-do-not-yield-to-Turkish-music" virtuosos singing minores. Btw my No1 favourite chanter is Chrysanthos Theosodopoulos (+1988) of Thessaloniki:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4g7I0Z5J5ghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLCYn_DA0yEClose second comes the Master (Charilaos Taliadoros), listen to an 86-year old voice:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf-nvi_uPZohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0eqOR2cnP0

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Could you post some examples of the different variations, if there are any oo youtube? Would be interesting to hear.

I agree with you, Angelopoulos has become more of a theoretician in the Byzantine Music lately (to put it bluntly, as one psaltis I know has put it, "his chaning nowadays does not emit insence") but his contribution in a deeper understanding of the neumes who had been forgotten (or pushed aside) by the practical chanters, can't be nullified. The golden rule IMHO is to follow the classic interpretation which has been traditioned ('xcuse my neologism) from generation to generation on one hand, and at the same time to not disregard the fresh (and interesting) air Angelopoulos has brought into the *cough*static and moldy*cough* world of Byzantine Music in Greece. It's good that we can judge Angelopoulos harshly but at the same time we should not forget that before Angelopoulos, the norm was to hear polyphonic "I-presume-it's-authentic-western-music-and-if-it's-not-at-least-I-do-not-yield-to-Turkish-music" virtuosos singing minores. Btw my No1 favourite chanter is Chrysanthos Theosodopoulos (+1988) of Thessaloniki:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4g7I0Z5J5ghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLCYn_DA0yEClose second comes the Master (Charilaos Taliadoros), listen to an 86-year old voice:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf-nvi_uPZohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0eqOR2cnP0

I should point out that if it weren't for the work of the Karas school, I would probably have never got around to learning neumes, so I am indebted to them. And I agree with you about how silly it is that so many Greek people don't appreciate their own liturgical musical tradition (don't know what the situation is like in Greece--I've never been there). At the same time, I've never bought into the "Westernized music is bad" spiel, which is usually what I hear from Karas/Angelopoulos chanters, although some of our Westernized choir compositions do sound really foofy, like they belong in a Walt Disney movie.

I see you admire the Thessalonikean chanters...that's similar to the tastes of the guys I hang around. Personally, I prefer Nafpliotis, Pringos, and Monk Dositheos as my primary resources. Pringos is sort of a hybrid of Thessalonikean and Patriarchal style.

I should point out that if it weren't for the work of the Karas school, I would probably have never got around to learning neumes, so I am indebted to them. And I agree with you about how silly it is that so many Greek people don't appreciate their own liturgical musical tradition (don't know what the situation is like in Greece--I've never been there). At the same time, I've never bought into the "Westernized music is bad" spiel, which is usually what I hear from Karas/Angelopoulos chanters, although some of our Westernized choir compositions do sound really foofy, like they belong in a Walt Disney movie.

Those who have told you that westernized ecclesiastical choir compositions are bad spiel, should look at the music of Ionian islands; the Ionian islands (i.e. Corfu, Zakynthos, Cephallonia) have developed a polyphonic musical tradition (probably due to their proximity to Italy and at the same time their long distance from Constantinople) which is unique in Greece (and does not remind of Walt Disney cheesy musical style at all):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI3O9lFe0OIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udBeKRKNJU0

I see you admire the Thessalonikean chanters...that's similar to the tastes of the guys I hang around. Personally, I prefer Nafpliotis, Pringos, and Monk Dositheos as my primary resources. Pringos is sort of a hybrid of Thessalonikean and Patriarchal style.

Quite correct, in the authoritative work on Rusyn chant by Bokshaj in the late 1800's/early 1900's, the notation ' Bulharski' may be found scattered among a number of Irmosi and funereal hymns - particularly those of St. John of Damascus. That doesn't mean they match up, note for note, with the Bulgarian, but rather that over centuries they were passed along orally as such and as a result, they developed their own cadences etc...

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

Those are peasants. Whatever musical theory they learned was through oral transmission, a very localized one, to boot.

Behold the beauty of oral transmission!

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Bokšaj or death!

Yes, but are you from Presov or Uzhorod? Stuff like that can split a church you know!

Uzhorod, of course. That schismatic Toth sings like a Presovite.

Yet none have the grace and beauty, not to mention the power of Venice and Gabrieli (who died 400 years ago this year), Monteverdi, and Grande - or the Germans like Preatorius and Schutz.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

Those are peasants. Whatever musical theory they learned was through oral transmission, a very localized one, to boot.

Behold the beauty of oral transmission!

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Bokšaj or death!

Yes, but are you from Presov or Uzhorod? Stuff like that can split a church you know!

Uzhorod, of course. That schismatic Toth sings like a Presovite.

Yet none have the grace and beauty, not to mention the power of Venice and Gabrieli (who died 400 years ago this year), Monteverdi, and Grande - or the Germans like Preatorius and Schutz.

Personally, I am of the mindset that in the ears of our Lord, all praise is good so long as it comes from a pure heart and is offered to Him in the proper frame of mind. While our Orthodox tradition may prefer one form over another, I seriously doubt if the works Punch cites are 'rejected' by Him or somehow found to be 'inferior'. Mozart offered some powerful music as well for these purposes.

Chrysanthos Theosodopoulos reminds me of my father's chanting. Before he was ordained, he was the head chanter at the Bulgarian Exarchate in Constantinople. If I may be bold, while technically both my father and Mr. Theosodopoulos excelled, my father's tone was more mellow and thus more pleasing at least to my soul.

Chrysanthos Theosodopoulos reminds me of my father's chanting. Before he was ordained, he was the head chanter at the Bulgarian Exarchate in Constantinople. If I may be bold, while technically both my father and Mr. Theosodopoulos excelled, my father's tone was more mellow and thus more pleasing at least to my soul.

Carl, we can except that, but only because you are being objective and non-partison

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

Those are peasants. Whatever musical theory they learned was through oral transmission, a very localized one, to boot.

Behold the beauty of oral transmission!

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Bokšaj or death!

Yes, but are you from Presov or Uzhorod? Stuff like that can split a church you know!

Uzhorod, of course. That schismatic Toth sings like a Presovite.

Yet none have the grace and beauty, not to mention the power of Venice and Gabrieli (who died 400 years ago this year), Monteverdi, and Grande - or the Germans like Preatorius and Schutz.

Personally, I am of the mindset that in the ears of our Lord, all praise is good so long as it comes from a pure heart and is offered to Him in the proper frame of mind. While our Orthodox tradition may prefer one form over another, I seriously doubt if the works Punch cites are 'rejected' by Him or somehow found to be 'inferior'. Mozart offered some powerful music as well for these purposes.

Ah, we are of the same mindset. One of the most beautiful Nativities that I ever celebrated was in a Russian Orthodox Church made up of (at the time) a good number of Lutheran converts. After participating in the beautiful Nativity service done in all of its ROCOR fullness, we all retreated to the Church hall where we sang our beloved German Christmas songs, some even in German. I am sure that God did not mind.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying

Russian chant is easier on the American ears, however I have heard some beautiful Byzantine chant when properly done. Sadly I haven't herad much of it done well.

Thomas

I think that some familiarity of the 'ambiance' of Russian sounds may be due to the relative popularity of some Russian music in the pre-war and Cold War eras through the Don Cossack Chorus and later even the Red Army Chorus and some basso profundo types who may have been on American TV in the days of variety shows and Lawrence Welk. Also a fair number of movie sound tracks which were popular, starting back with Dr. Zhivago in the 60's and continuing on to the present used Russian background chants to portray an eastern or Orthodox ambiance. I don't think that Byzantine sounds made a similar inroad, particular since to the untrained ear they do bear a tonal similarity to other mideastern sounds - at least to American ears. This is unfair to Byzantine music. In recent years Bulgarian folk and church music had a niche presence in the US market so perhaps things can change.

Russian chant is easier on the American ears, however I have heard some beautiful Byzantine chant when properly done. Sadly I haven't herad much of it done well.

Thomas

I think that some familiarity of the 'ambiance' of Russian sounds may be due to the relative popularity of some Russian music in the pre-war and Cold War eras through the Don Cossack Chorus and later even the Red Army Chorus and some basso profundo types who may have been on American TV in the days of variety shows and Lawrence Welk. Also a fair number of movie sound tracks which were popular, starting back with Dr. Zhivago in the 60's and continuing on to the present used Russian background chants to portray an eastern or Orthodox ambiance. I don't think that Byzantine sounds made a similar inroad, particular since to the untrained ear they do bear a tonal similarity to other mideastern sounds - at least to American ears. This is unfair to Byzantine music. In recent years Bulgarian folk and church music had a niche presence in the US market so perhaps things can change.

I do not agree with this at all. Western familiarity with Russian music far predates the post Cold War years. There were many Russian composers of classical music in the late 19th and earl 20th Centuries. I remember the 1812 Overture being taught in my music classes in 5th Grade, with the piece being heavily intertwined with the First Tone of Russian Chant. I can remember listening to liturgies from Rachmaninov before I knew what a Divine Liturgy even was, much less the Russian Orthodox Church. And what about Prokofiev? I would say that it would be nearly impossible to have had any music education without coming into contact with Russian composers. And these Russian composers often used elements of their folk and Church music in their compositions. Byzantine music, on the other hand, is uncommon to the Western ear, and often flat out offensive. Although for my part, I have learned to like some of it.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Russian chant is easier on the American ears, however I have heard some beautiful Byzantine chant when properly done. Sadly I haven't herad much of it done well.

Thomas

I think that some familiarity of the 'ambiance' of Russian sounds may be due to the relative popularity of some Russian music in the pre-war and Cold War eras through the Don Cossack Chorus and later even the Red Army Chorus and some basso profundo types who may have been on American TV in the days of variety shows and Lawrence Welk. Also a fair number of movie sound tracks which were popular, starting back with Dr. Zhivago in the 60's and continuing on to the present used Russian background chants to portray an eastern or Orthodox ambiance. I don't think that Byzantine sounds made a similar inroad, particular since to the untrained ear they do bear a tonal similarity to other mideastern sounds - at least to American ears. This is unfair to Byzantine music. In recent years Bulgarian folk and church music had a niche presence in the US market so perhaps things can change.

I do not agree with this at all. Western familiarity with Russian music far predates the post Cold War years. There were many Russian composers of classical music in the late 19th and earl 20th Centuries. I remember the 1812 Overture being taught in my music classes in 5th Grade, with the piece being heavily intertwined with the First Tone of Russian Chant. I can remember listening to liturgies from Rachmaninov before I knew what a Divine Liturgy even was, much less the Russian Orthodox Church. And what about Prokofiev? I would say that it would be nearly impossible to have had any music education without coming into contact with Russian composers. And these Russian composers often used elements of their folk and Church music in their compositions. Byzantine music, on the other hand, is uncommon to the Western ear, and often flat out offensive. Although for my part, I have learned to like some of it.

Quite right, the stuff I referred to fits in with western familiarity with Russian classical composition - my fingers were a bit ahead of my thinking.

The same debate goes on within the Rusyn chant tradition. In the United States, the Greek Catholics have insisted on mandatory compliance with written notations which goes against centuries of oral tradition and which has caused great debate within their churches. The Orthodox who use that chant are not so much locked into the written methodologies, hence more regional differentiation can be observed in our churches. The comment about peasants is quite true as there were no annotated sets of chant available among the varied east European communities until the end of the 19th century.

Bokšaj or death![/quote]

Yes, but are you from Presov or Uzhorod? Stuff like that can split a church you know![/quote]

Uzhorod, of course. That schismatic Toth sings like a Presovite. [/quote]Ah you mean what St. Alexis Toth is singing in heaven with the rest of the saints?

"Who wants to be consistent? The dullard and the doctrinaire, the tedious people who carry out their principles to the bitter end of action, to the reductio ad absurdum of practice. Not I."-Oscar Wilde, The Decay of Lying