I'd be interested to know what you "Orthodoxen" think about a weekly sabbath and its transference from Jewish Saturday to later Sunday, known as "the Lord's Day". Protestant opinion divides: the majority believe the sabbath was transferred from Saturday to Sunday, others believe that the weekly sabbath was part of God's unique covenant with the Jews and was never imposed upon Gentiles (except insofar as it points to the human need for a weekly day of rest). What do you teach, think and practise (or practice, if you are in the States)?

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

The Sabbath is nonetheless kept as a day of rest, in a symbolic way at least, by refraining from strict fasting or prostrations (with the exception of Saturday of Holy Week). It is also the day on which we commemorate the dead, those who are at rest.

In the Synaxarion reading for either Holy Saturday or Pascha (I forget which), it says the disciples transferred the dignity of the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday, the Lord's Day.

I'm not sure I recall this, Shanghaiski.

From what I have read and been told, the Sabbath was not removed. Rather, Sunday was added, and took the place of primacy among the days of the week that the Sabbath used to hold. As Orthodox11 said, we still hold it as a sacred day even though our primary worship day is Sunday.

A much-cited account from the 4th century historian, Socrates Scholasticus, claims that the churches of Alexandria and Constantinople in that day celebrated the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday regularly. This practice is still the case in many churches today.

My priest told me that he was taught at seminary, "Saturday is still the Sabbath".

« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 04:43:44 PM by NicholasMyra »

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

In the Synaxarion reading for either Holy Saturday or Pascha (I forget which), it says the disciples transferred the dignity of the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday, the Lord's Day.

I'm not sure I recall this, Shanghaiski.

From what I have read and been told, the Sabbath was not removed. Rather, Sunday was added, and took the place of primacy among the days of the week that the Sabbath used to hold. As Orthodox11 said, we still hold it as a sacred day even though our primary worship day is Sunday.

A much-cited account from the 4th century historian, Socrates Scholasticus, claims that the churches of Alexandria and Constantinople in that day celebrated the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday regularly. This practice is still the case in many churches today.

My priest told me that he was taught at seminary, "Saturday is still the Sabbath".

The priest wasn't all that correct, it seems. Saturday is no longer a day of rest from labor. In the monasteries, for example, the monks work on Saturdays, but not on Sundays. However, Saturday is still special as a commemoration of the departed, and a day when liturgy is typically served. It is also a day free of fasting, although not of abstinence. Most typica allow oil and wine on even Holy Saturday, as the prefeast of Pascha.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

2) Where do Orthodox derive the authority for the transference from Saturday to Sunday?

From the Resurrection of Christ. The dignity of the Sabbath was transferred to the Lord's Day, but the Lord's Day did not become a new Sabbath. We abstain from work on the Lord's Day and on feast days in order to be free to devote ourselves to their observance, not because work is forbidden per se. Orthodoxy has never had a tradition of Jewish style Sabbath observance, since this, like the rest of the Law, was fulfilled with the coming of Christ. The Holy Fathers explicitly forbid the observance of Sabbaths by Christians.

The way I've understood it is that the Sabbath remains the Sabbath, the day of rest, and that the Lord's Day (Sunday) is the eighth day, the day of the Resurrection and the coming Kingdom, which surpasses the worldly fullness of the Sabbath and projects us into eternity.

Saturday, however, remains the Sabbath as it is fulfilled in Christ, who rested in the tomb on the Sabbath. Because of this, Saturdays are set apart to remember the departed, particularly those special Sabbaths throughout the liturgical year called "Soul Saturdays."

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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

The way I've understood it is that the Sabbath remains the Sabbath, the day of rest, and that the Lord's Day (Sunday) is the eighth day, the day of the Resurrection and the coming Kingdom, which surpasses the worldly fullness of the Sabbath and projects us into eternity.

Saturday, however, remains the Sabbath as it is fulfilled in Christ, who rested in the tomb on the Sabbath. Because of this, Saturdays are set apart to remember the departed, particularly those special Sabbaths throughout the liturgical year called "Soul Saturdays."

In the Synaxarion reading for either Holy Saturday or Pascha (I forget which), it says the disciples transferred the dignity of the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday, the Lord's Day.

I'm not sure I recall this, Shanghaiski.

From what I have read and been told, the Sabbath was not removed. Rather, Sunday was added, and took the place of primacy among the days of the week that the Sabbath used to hold. As Orthodox11 said, we still hold it as a sacred day even though our primary worship day is Sunday.

A much-cited account from the 4th century historian, Socrates Scholasticus, claims that the churches of Alexandria and Constantinople in that day celebrated the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday regularly. This practice is still the case in many churches today.

My priest told me that he was taught at seminary, "Saturday is still the Sabbath".

The priest wasn't all that correct, it seems. Saturday is no longer a day of rest from labor. In the monasteries, for example, the monks work on Saturdays, but not on Sundays. However, Saturday is still special as a commemoration of the departed, and a day when liturgy is typically served. It is also a day free of fasting, although not of abstinence. Most typica allow oil and wine on even Holy Saturday, as the prefeast of Pascha.

Just because we gentiles don't rest on the sabbath doesn't mean that it ceases to be the Sabbath.

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Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son

...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Just because we gentiles don't rest on the sabbath doesn't mean that it ceases to be the Sabbath.

Indeed. In Greek, Slavic, Romance, Semitic, Caucasian, etc. languages the word for Saturday is simply Savvato, Subbota, Sabado, Sabt, Shabat, Sabati, or some variant thereof. The question "is Saturday still the Sabbath?" is one that makes no sense in most languages.

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We moved our honoring of the Sabbath to Sunday almost 2000 years ago in the Orthodox Church. However, we are not legalistic like the Jews of today, and so we are allowed as Jesus demonstrated to us, to do good on the Sabbath (i.e. Sunday). We honor God by attending the Divine Liturgy, and we dedicate our hearts to him that day. Do we wear shoes and drive car? Yes. Is that disrespecting the Sabbath? We'd argue differently, but again, we don't get our faith from the examples of contemporary Judaism, we follow the Fathers of the Church and the example of our Savior.

Of course, in Ethiopia this was a ricidulously controversial issue for hundreds of years, and there were indeed civil war level divisions between Saturday and Sunday Sabbatarians. Emperor Zara Yacob resolved the conflict by declaring that the Ethiopian Church would honor BOTH days. Initially, there were anti-Jewish laws forbidding even remotely Jewish practices, including Saturday Sabbath observation.

stay blessed,habte selassie

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Of course, in Ethiopia this was a ricidulously controversial issue for hundreds of years, and there were indeed civil war level divisions between Saturday and Sunday Sabbatarians. Emperor Zara Yacob resolved the conflict by declaring that the Ethiopian Church would honor BOTH days. Initially, there were anti-Jewish laws forbidding even remotely Jewish practices, including Saturday Sabbath observation.

Is there any well documented history on the origins and general makeup of the "Saturday Sabbatarians"? Were they also responsible for a more general emphasis on Old Testament Law, adherence to which (abstinence from pork, for example) seems to be unique to the Ethiopic tradition, or do these have independent origins?

I realise many point to Ethiopia's pre-Christian Judaic heritage to explain many of these practices, but since things like established Sabbath observance are of medieval origin, it wouldn't be surprising if many other points could be dated to the same period, perhaps under the influence of the same people.

Of course, in Ethiopia this was a ridiculously controversial issue for hundreds of years, and there were indeed civil war level divisions between Saturday and Sunday Sabbatarians. Emperor Zara Yacob resolved the conflict by declaring that the Ethiopian Church would honor BOTH days. Initially, there were anti-Jewish laws forbidding even remotely Jewish practices, including Saturday Sabbath observation.

Is there any well documented history on the origins and general makeup of the "Saturday Sabbatarians"? Were they also responsible for a more general emphasis on Old Testament Law, adherence to which (abstinence from pork, for example) seems to be unique to the Ethiopic tradition, or do these have independent origins?

I realise many point to Ethiopia's pre-Christian Judaic heritage to explain many of these practices, but since things like established Sabbath observance are of medieval origin, it wouldn't be surprising if many other points could be dated to the same period, perhaps under the influence of the same people.

Yes, this is well documented medieval Ethiopian history. Unfortunately not a lot is available in English at this point. On pages 23-30 of this book Harold Marcus discussed the Sabbatarian crises around the time of Saint Ewostatewos , who is almost the Martin Luther of Ethiopian history his rivalry with Saint Tekle Haimanot during the end of the 13th century. The taboos on pork, the prevalence of circumcision, and other similarly Jewish cultural traits are actually pan-Semitic traits which exist in Ethiopia predating the arrival of any of the Abrahamic faiths. In fact, a lot of the Semitic "pagans" of Ethiopia are also monotheists with pork taboos and circumcision! The historiography is shifting currently from one which previously suggested that Semitic culture was imported into Ethiopia from Arabian peninsula during the Aksumite Empire now to suggest that it is Afro-Asiatic in origin with an emphasis on Africa, and that all of Semitic culture may have in fact originated on the Horn and spread East into Arabia. At this point in the game, its sort of a chicken and egg question, but the evidence increasingly suggests that Ethiopia is the cradle of Semitic culture.

In regards to the Sabbath, it was deeply embedded in Ethiopian culture up until the time of Abba Ewostatewos, and this father simply codified the practice in his own regional monastery. Other political rivals, including monks from the monastery of Abba Tekle Haimanot felt different, but at this time these monks were more closely tied with the Ethiopian Crown, and for political reasons in retaliation to the Jewish civil wars a century previous, the Ethiopian monarchy was increasingly removing Judaic elements from Christianity, and instituting the kinds of segregation laws against Jews which Europe would soon adopt. Around this the Ethiopian Jews found the name "fallasha" which is because they were legally displaced from their traditionally inherited land tenure, and forced into both migration and subservience. Anything "Jewish" was attacked, including the traditional observation in Ethiopia of both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath. Abba Ewostatewos controversy was that he, like some current Protestants, felt from interpreting Scripture that the Fathers had been wrong to move the Sabbath to Sunday. Initially he encouraged his followers ONLY to observe the Saturday Sabbath. In the 1440s Emperor Zara Yacob resolved the regional conflict by instituting a Church canon which said both Saturday and Sunday were the Sabbath and required Divine Liturgy. This rule stood for some time, and in rural Ethiopia to this day there are still many folks who attend Divine Liturgy on both days.

stay blessed,habte selassie

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Thanks for that. Pre-Abrahamic cultural origins for those Old Testament practices among Ethiopians seems like a much more plausable explanation. I know the Ancient Egyptians too avoided eating or sacrificing pigs, so it was presumably the same for the Nubians and others peoples further south.

Thanks for that. Pre-Abrahamic cultural origins for those Old Testament practices among Ethiopians seems like a much more plausable explanation. I know the Ancient Egyptians too avoided eating or sacrificing pigs, so it was presumably the same for the Nubians and others peoples further south.

Yes, in the Western mind all things Semitic seem to be Jewish, but in reality, the Jews are just one of many hundreds of Semitic peoples, who all share many of the same cultural traits. The reality is that Ethiopia very well may not have been "Jewish" before converting to Christianity as many current scholars assert, and as our own church colloquially teaches, but rather that the "pagan" religion of the Aksumites was Semitic in culture and flavor and therefore appeared very Jewish. For example, it is well documented from coins and other inscriptions that the Ethiopian pantheon in Aksum as early as the 3rd century AD was conforming to the widely accepted Roman triumvirate pantheon, with the Ethiopian pre-Christian deities for the Sky, Land, and Sea taking on Hellenistic influences of Zeus, Apollo, and Hermes. Hardly Orthodox Judaism ;')

stay blessed,habte selassie

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Memo to Ethiopians who might see this, behold a good reminder for the validity of the warning of the fathers,' know your history unless.... you know how it ends ' why the painstaking documentation of history and the worth of all the sacrifice in preserving it. As the fathers say, ' be af yale yiresal, betsihuf yale yiweresal/ that which is only in oral tradition will be forgotten, that which is written will be inherited'.

Love End of memo

...... Selam everyone

I only will address the "History" lesson as it relates to the Saint Ewostatewos, that said he was like the protestants even something like Luther who read only the letter, and like Luther who protested against the church in favor of his own ideas etc. etc...

What the Saint: who was as orthodox as they come and as highly grounded in the teachings of the orthodox fathers ,what he has done was to refer to what is on the didache and what was also practiced in Ethiopia before the rise of certain groups. Groups motivated by politics and aided by the Patriarch and king of the time attempted to eliminate the observance of the Saturday Sabbath, that used to be celebrated in a Christian manner which was in keeping with the initial tradition of the church by celebration of the liturgy in the morning. those groups from Dabra libanos monastery aided by the patriarch of the time were to put it mildly wrong. So as they could not defend their view in eliminating the Sabbath by neither scripture nor the teachings of the Church Fathers, they persecuted the Saint and his disciples. let us just say in the end the Truth prevailed in the Church, and he was vindicated and canonized because of his Orthodoxy!

Today we commemorate and venerate our Holy Father Saint Ewostatewos on every month on the 18th , and yearly on the 18th of September in Ethiopian Calendar as one of the great saints of Ethiopia who suffered much for the Orthodox Faith and Holy Tradition.

Today everywhere in Ethiopia wherever the liturgy is daily celebrated, the Saturday and Sunday liturgy is done in the morning and there is no fasting from food and drink on Saturday except for the Holy Saturday when our Lord is entombed and we fast until we see the Light of His Resurrection.

it is not only in rural areas but right in the capital of Ethiopia, in Addis, the Saturday and Sunday Liturgy is in the morning and it is never missed in the City. there are always enough priests and deacons to serve so there is no day that the Divine Liturgy is not celebrated in the city. the rural areas depending on how sparsely populated they are, the liturgy is only on Saturday and Sunday or just Sunday only.

Our Lord came to perfect the Law, keep that in mind.

I will hold my peace regarding the other part of the discussion.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 08:05:17 PM by Hiwot »

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Just because we gentiles don't rest on the sabbath doesn't mean that it ceases to be the Sabbath.

Indeed. In Greek, Slavic, Romance, Semitic, Caucasian, etc. languages the word for Saturday is simply Savvato, Subbota, Sabado, Sabt, Shabat, Sabati, or some variant thereof. The question "is Saturday still the Sabbath?" is one that makes no sense in most languages.

I've give you another: German.

Samstag.

Also referred in primarily the Protestant / Formerly Communist German Speaking World as Sonnabend without the connection to the sabbath.

I only will address the "History" lesson as it relates to the Saint Ewostatewos, that said he was like the protestants even something like Luther who read only the letter, and like Luther who protested against the church in favor of his own ideas etc. etc...

I was not being literal, my mistake for not elaborating. I meant in the sense of being a Saint with good but intentions but a devisive history. I meant absolutely no disrespect to the good Abba Ewostatewos, indeed even Martin Luther had good intentions. . Thank you for the additions

stay blessed,habte selassie

« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 09:19:06 PM by HabteSelassie »

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

In the Synaxarion reading for either Holy Saturday or Pascha (I forget which), it says the disciples transferred the dignity of the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday, the Lord's Day.

I'm not sure I recall this, Shanghaiski.

From what I have read and been told, the Sabbath was not removed. Rather, Sunday was added, and took the place of primacy among the days of the week that the Sabbath used to hold. As Orthodox11 said, we still hold it as a sacred day even though our primary worship day is Sunday.

A much-cited account from the 4th century historian, Socrates Scholasticus, claims that the churches of Alexandria and Constantinople in that day celebrated the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday regularly. This practice is still the case in many churches today.

My priest told me that he was taught at seminary, "Saturday is still the Sabbath".

The priest wasn't all that correct, it seems. Saturday is no longer a day of rest from labor. In the monasteries, for example, the monks work on Saturdays, but not on Sundays. However, Saturday is still special as a commemoration of the departed, and a day when liturgy is typically served. It is also a day free of fasting, although not of abstinence. Most typica allow oil and wine on even Holy Saturday, as the prefeast of Pascha.

Out of curiosity, is there a typica that doesn't allow wine and oil on Holy Saturday?

In the Synaxarion reading for either Holy Saturday or Pascha (I forget which), it says the disciples transferred the dignity of the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday, the Lord's Day.

I'm not sure I recall this, Shanghaiski.

From what I have read and been told, the Sabbath was not removed. Rather, Sunday was added, and took the place of primacy among the days of the week that the Sabbath used to hold. As Orthodox11 said, we still hold it as a sacred day even though our primary worship day is Sunday.

A much-cited account from the 4th century historian, Socrates Scholasticus, claims that the churches of Alexandria and Constantinople in that day celebrated the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday regularly. This practice is still the case in many churches today.

My priest told me that he was taught at seminary, "Saturday is still the Sabbath".

The priest wasn't all that correct, it seems. Saturday is no longer a day of rest from labor. In the monasteries, for example, the monks work on Saturdays, but not on Sundays. However, Saturday is still special as a commemoration of the departed, and a day when liturgy is typically served. It is also a day free of fasting, although not of abstinence. Most typica allow oil and wine on even Holy Saturday, as the prefeast of Pascha.

Out of curiosity, is there a typica that doesn't allow wine and oil on Holy Saturday?

Possibly. Perhaps the rule of more austere monasteries.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

In the Synaxarion reading for either Holy Saturday or Pascha (I forget which), it says the disciples transferred the dignity of the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday, the Lord's Day.

I'm not sure I recall this, Shanghaiski.

From what I have read and been told, the Sabbath was not removed. Rather, Sunday was added, and took the place of primacy among the days of the week that the Sabbath used to hold. As Orthodox11 said, we still hold it as a sacred day even though our primary worship day is Sunday.

A much-cited account from the 4th century historian, Socrates Scholasticus, claims that the churches of Alexandria and Constantinople in that day celebrated the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday regularly. This practice is still the case in many churches today.

My priest told me that he was taught at seminary, "Saturday is still the Sabbath".

The priest wasn't all that correct, it seems. Saturday is no longer a day of rest from labor. In the monasteries, for example, the monks work on Saturdays, but not on Sundays. However, Saturday is still special as a commemoration of the departed, and a day when liturgy is typically served. It is also a day free of fasting, although not of abstinence. Most typica allow oil and wine on even Holy Saturday, as the prefeast of Pascha.

Out of curiosity, is there a typica that doesn't allow wine and oil on Holy Saturday?

Possibly. Perhaps the rule of more austere monasteries.

Oh! Sorry, I thought you knew of one. As understand, one doesn't exist. Wine and oil are always allowed on Saturday - including Great and Holy Saturday.

I've always understood that the Orthodox commemorate, along with the dead, the creation on Saturday the seventh day as Sabbath and the recreation on Sunday as the Kyriake the eighth day. I've read the synaxarion reading about transferring the dignity of the Sabbath to the Kyriake - and wondered, does a transfer of dignity mean that the Sabbath doesn't retain its dignity and it is now shared with the Kyriake?

Oh! Sorry, I thought you knew of one. As understand, one doesn't exist. Wine and oil are always allowed on Saturday - including Great and Holy Saturday.

According to Metropolitan Kallistos' very good overview of the canonical fasting rules in his Lenten Triodion, he states that "On Holy Saturday there is in principle no meal...If, as usually happens now, they return home for a meal, they may use wine but not oil; for on this one Saturday, alone among the Saturdays of the year, olive oil is not permitted." (p.36)

Oh! Sorry, I thought you knew of one. As understand, one doesn't exist. Wine and oil are always allowed on Saturday - including Great and Holy Saturday.

According to Metropolitan Kallistos' very good overview of the canonical fasting rules in his Lenten Triodion, he states that "On Holy Saturday there is in principle no meal...If, as usually happens now, they return home for a meal, they may use wine but not oil; for on this one Saturday, alone among the Saturdays of the year, olive oil is not permitted." (p.36)

OOPS! Your right.. I meant to say only WINE! Yes, as I understand Holy and Great Saturday is the only Saturday where OIL is not permitted. Thank you for the correction!

I'd be interested to know what you "Orthodoxen" think about a weekly sabbath and its transference from Jewish Saturday to later Sunday, known as "the Lord's Day". Protestant opinion divides: the majority believe the sabbath was transferred from Saturday to Sunday, others believe that the weekly sabbath was part of God's unique covenant with the Jews and was never imposed upon Gentiles (except insofar as it points to the human need for a weekly day of rest). What do you teach, think and practise (or practice, if you are in the States)?

In the Synaxarion reading for either Holy Saturday or Pascha (I forget which), it says the disciples transferred the dignity of the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday, the Lord's Day.

I'm not sure I recall this, Shanghaiski.

From what I have read and been told, the Sabbath was not removed. Rather, Sunday was added, and took the place of primacy among the days of the week that the Sabbath used to hold. As Orthodox11 said, we still hold it as a sacred day even though our primary worship day is Sunday.

A much-cited account from the 4th century historian, Socrates Scholasticus, claims that the churches of Alexandria and Constantinople in that day celebrated the Divine Liturgy on both Saturday and Sunday regularly. This practice is still the case in many churches today.

My priest told me that he was taught at seminary, "Saturday is still the Sabbath".

I am in 100% agreement with you.

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

The way I've understood it is that the Sabbath remains the Sabbath, the day of rest, and that the Lord's Day (Sunday) is the eighth day, the day of the Resurrection and the coming Kingdom, which surpasses the worldly fullness of the Sabbath and projects us into eternity.

Saturday, however, remains the Sabbath as it is fulfilled in Christ, who rested in the tomb on the Sabbath. Because of this, Saturdays are set apart to remember the departed, particularly those special Sabbaths throughout the liturgical year called "Soul Saturdays."

I wish we had a "thank you" or a "like" button. I agree 100%ly!

« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 04:33:43 AM by jnorm888 »

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.