We have fallible brains. But they didn't come from your god or any other. They came from an evolutionary process that wasn't all that worried about the specifics as long as procreation was still possible.

Exactly. You have the answer. We have fallible brains. But weren't created with one. Sin and evolution made them fallible.

I see what you did there. Twisted everything around to try making my words fit your agenda. That was cute. Do you know any other tricks? Can you fetch sticks for jesus?

I shall rephrase it so that you can't possibly twist the words around.

There are no gods of any sort. Our brains evolved, along side our social selves. Our fallibility, if you must use that word, comes from the fact that we humans are neither perfect nor identical. Too, we control far too little of our biology or our environment or our bodies to get it right even if our brains were not fallible. But that fallibility, that shortcoming, is natural, inherent, built in, and absofrickin'lootly natural. No gods were involved with making us or letting us become less than that perfection you think we all should aspire to. Nor were any satan's involved. The reason we're not capable of the perfection you imagine is not sin, but because though our fallible brains are capable of imagining better worlds, better people, better realities, there is nothing in our biology or our social structure available to make it happen. None of those imagined perfect places/situations are attainable. Not only because it is inherent impossible, but too because people (not satan) are involved, and the odds of getting six or seven billion people to agree on anything long enough to get a smile on each and every face is so far below zero I'm not even sure of mathematics has a name for the number.

The religious want to violate each and every law of both physics and society, as they try to redefine what reality should be and then sit around and cry because we haven't attained it. Apparently the more religious a person is, the less they are willing to take the real world into account. So when bad stuff happens, rather than facing the truth, you guys go jerk a fake satan out of the closet, point at him, and say it is all his fault, and of course, also the fault of all who you falsely claim are in the closet with him. And that makes more sense to you than naturally occurring psychopaths and earthquakes and rattlesnakes and disease bearing insects.

The reason you are doomed to failure on this site, the reason you aren't going to be converting anyone here, is because I'm pretty sure none of us are as able as you to set aside the brain cells used for thinking, nor can we active the ones required for living only in a land of fantasy.

The radically religious in the world, be it you or a jew or a muslim or a JW or a mormon, live every moment thinking that if only the rest of the world knew what you did, the planet would suddenly become a wondrous, eden-like place, albeit with great broadband service. Evil would disappear so fast we'd forget what we used to call it, and the biggest problem, at least from the catholic point of view, would be that there would be less need for the clergy because there would be nothing to confess about.

Nope, nothing even close to that is possible, and ironically, one of the more blatant reasons it isn't is because of religion, which divides, subjugates, oppresses, blames, punishes and otherwise makes sure that most of us have a lot of bad days. Yes, there are other ways to muck up the planet as well, so I'm not saying you guys have a monopoly or anything, but you sure don't help the situation by pretending to have all the answers.

Twist my words all you want. That won't make your untrue reality any more accurate. Don't ask me to toss out my reality and join yours, because, um, you're isn't an actual reality. That's why you have to twist my words. Your own convey no useful information.

Yes of course. Actual evidence. Do you know what you are asking for? What are actual evidence when we talk about the best religion?

Well, since the best religion is Mine, and I clearly exist, since I'm interacting with you and everyone else now in a reliable, unambiguous, and verifiable manner, that'd be something you could use for the worst religion ever (yours). Of course, you can't, since you're worshiping a false god, rather than Me.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

And your god's plan was to create us with a fatal flaw that left us unable to tell right from wrong, but still demand that we chose right. Makes as much sense as anything else you've said on this forum.

Why do you think that freedom is a fatal flaw? Care to expand on that in another thread?

And your god's plan was to create us with a fatal flaw that left us unable to tell right from wrong, but still demand that we chose right. Makes as much sense as anything else you've said on this forum.

Why do you think that freedom is a fatal flaw? Care to expand on that in another thread?

why don't you answer the fucking question

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

The worst way to deal with a problem is to think that you have all the answers beforehand. The religious want to face every issue on the planet with their ancient book, and they insist that all the answers are contained there within. The old answers didn't work for starvation, natural disasters, total world domination or even picking the winner of American Ido. Yet those same old self-centered ideals are supposed to guide us towards solving everything from immigration problems (Build bigger fences! Screw 'em if they can't take a little oppression!) to regional conflict (Hell, we hate the jews, but we love 'em too, because they're about to bring on armageddon, so we're behind 'em 100%!).

The bible-toting masses couldn't solve problems 1500 years ago, 1000 years ago, 500 years ago, and yet they insist they can solve our problems now, if only we follow the word of their version of god.

There are ways for humans to work together, but not if all conflicting parties insist they are are right and everyone else is wrong.

Let it go. It hasn't worked. It can't work. Think of new things to try. Get rid of the past. Religion has way too much baggage, and contains precisely no usable advice. Oh, other than that goat thingy where you can get striped goats by mating them in front of striped poles. That works like a charm.

Why do you think that freedom is a fatal flaw? Care to expand on that in another thread?

What freedom is there in being threatened with expulsion from paradise if you fail to appease an all-powerful child by exhibiting a flaw that the child himself created? That'd be like cutting off someone's foot, then telling them they'll be kicked out of their house if they don't manage to keep up with Usain Bolt.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

Yes of course. Actual evidence. Do you know what you are asking for? What are actual evidence when we talk about the best religion?

Well, since the best religion is Mine, and I clearly exist, since I'm interacting with you and everyone else now in a reliable, unambiguous, and verifiable manner, that'd be something you could use for the worst religion ever (yours). Of course, you can't, since you're worshiping a false god, rather than Me.

So basically, in your imagination, the best religion must have a living guru?

So basically, in your imaginationreality, the best religion must have a living guru?

FTFY.Also, is your god not alive in your imagination? Was Jesus not alive in your imagination? Do they both not guide you in your imagination (especially the former) throughout your life? The only difference is that I'm real and interact with people directly.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

Why do you think that freedom is a fatal flaw? Care to expand on that in another thread?

What freedom is there in being threatened with expulsion from paradise if you fail to appease an all-powerful child by exhibiting a flaw that the child himself created? That'd be like cutting off someone's foot, then telling them they'll be kicked out of their house if they don't manage to keep up with Usain Bolt.

PP the answer will and always has been free-will. No matter what their God has either failed at or failed to tell us.... Free-will. Can't save the starving,free-will,natural disaster,free-will,gays,free-will,other faiths,free-will,creating the devil,Free-will,sinning as you please,but still getting into heaven,Jesus AND FREE-WILL..

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Why do you think that freedom is a fatal flaw? Care to expand on that in another thread?

What freedom is there in being threatened with expulsion from paradise if you fail to appease an all-powerful child by exhibiting a flaw that the child himself created? That'd be like cutting off someone's foot, then telling them they'll be kicked out of their house if they don't manage to keep up with Usain Bolt.

So...freedom is NOT a fatal flaw?

answer the fucking question or be reported

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

I understand how it can be difficult to remove the old testament from all discussion since most of the "bad" things happen in it. But Jesus came on earth to correct that mistake people where doing. People lost their trust in the old testament and started a new religion Christianism. This religion was based on Jesus instead of stories of the ancient time.

This is heresy and general garbage.

"But Jesus came on earth to correct that mistake people where doing." Who are these "people"? Romans? Moabites? Samaritans? No... M't:10:5: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:M't:10:6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.M't:10:7: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.Put succinctly, unless you're Jewish, Jesus isn't interested in you.

"People lost their trust in the old testament and started a new religion Christianism." This is deception. 1. Nobody lost their faith in Judaism. 2. Those that Paul converted were for the most part heathens: they had probably never heard of the OT, 3. you know as well as I that the Council of Nicaea included the OT and the NT.

You know as well as I that, until the softening of Christianity in the mid-19th century, the OT had dominance over the NT.

Jesus constantly refers back to the OT. Jesus claims to support the OT. The line of Jesus is supposed to stretch back to Adam.

Lukvance, it is often said that Catholics know nothing of religion.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Why do you think that freedom is a fatal flaw? Care to expand on that in another thread?

What freedom is there in being threatened with expulsion from paradise if you fail to appease an all-powerful child by exhibiting a flaw that the child himself created? That'd be like cutting off someone's foot, then telling them they'll be kicked out of their house if they don't manage to keep up with Usain Bolt.

So...freedom is NOT a fatal flaw?

Lukvance,This post has been reported more than once for dodging. Vox Populi, Vox Dei: it is dodging.

Please stop dodging, answer the question and obey God.

Thank you.

GB Mod

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite. (and we wouldn't have made the wrong choice of not following God advice)

So if we were originally created with this infallible brain that you now claim is impossible, we wouldn't have made the wrong choice - but we did - so clearly we were NOT created with infallible brains.

Oh yes, it would be. Fortunately not one I need to consider since it would only be you expressing YOUR thoughts and feelings. Or do you have some actual evidence?

Yes of course. Actual evidence. Do you know what you are asking for?

Yes. I. Am now asking for the actual evidence you have now clearly gone in record as having that is not your thoughts or feelings.

So present it. For once, stop weaselling and dodging and stand up tall for your god and just go "here is the evidence" without any more bullshit and dodging. You present a very poor advertisement for your god, when you have to weasel very topic so much.

I understand how it can be difficult to remove the old testament from all discussion since most of the "bad" things happen in it. But Jesus came on earth to correct that mistake people where doing. People lost their trust in the old testament and started a new religion Christianism. This religion was based on Jesus instead of stories of the ancient time.

This is heresy and general garbage.

"But Jesus came on earth to correct that mistake people where doing." Who are these "people"? Romans? Moabites? Samaritans? No... M't:10:5: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:M't:10:6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.M't:10:7: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.Put succinctly, unless you're Jewish, Jesus isn't interested in you.

"People lost their trust in the old testament and started a new religion Christianism." This is deception. 1. Nobody lost their faith in Judaism. 2. Those that Paul converted were for the most part heathens: they had probably never heard of the OT, 3. you know as well as I that the Council of Nicaea included the OT and the NT.

You know as well as I that, until the softening of Christianity in the mid-19th century, the OT had dominance over the NT.

Jesus constantly refers back to the OT. Jesus claims to support the OT. The line of Jesus is supposed to stretch back to Adam.

Lukvance, it is often said that Catholics know nothing of religion.

I am not here to debate the truth of the Old or new testament. If it is important for you maybe you could create a new thread or start a debate on that subject then send me the link in mp. I'll gladly participate.

I have noticed that atheists are not the people who say "I am not here to discuss such and such a topic with you." It is the religious people (who supposedly have the answers) who tell us what they will not talk about. Lukvance and Jst have both done this in the past few days.

We are willing to engage on just about any topic, to admit it when we don't know something, to educate ourselves about those things we don't know, and to accept it more or less gracefully when we are shown to be wrong.

Yet, we are the ones who get called closed minded and arrogant.

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

I cannot quite see how your guess works. What is the link between1. "He created us with an infallible brain"and2. "we rejected him (sin)"

There is a reason why we don't have an infallible brain today. As ParkingPlaces formulated it "[out fallible brain]came from an evolutionary process that wasn't all that worried about the specifics as long as procreation was still possible." This evolution was necessary only after we were cast out of heaven. We were cast out of Heaven because of sin. God is a perfect being. There is no reason why someone perfect would create something imperfect. Consequently God created us with a infallible brain but we don't have it anymore because of sin (and evolution)

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If we have an infallible brain, surely (i) we know if there is a god or not. (ii) we can work out his plan (iii) all of us would be equally intelligent.

How could we? You are talking about a infallible brain in the sense that it cannot make mistake based on its knowledge. Isn't it possible that it has not enough knowledge to "work out God's plan"? WE DON'T HAVE AN INFALLIBLE BRAIN ANYMORE. Why do you state "all of us would be equally intelligent"?

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At birth we are all atheists - yet there is a suggestion that our brains are infallible?

I don't believe that we are all atheists at birth. But this is not what I am here to discuss. I don't suggest that we all have an infallible brain.

We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite. (and we wouldn't have made the wrong choice of not following God advice)

So if we were originally created with this infallible brain that you now claim is impossible, we wouldn't have made the wrong choice - but we did - so clearly we were NOT created with infallible brains.

For me, with the sense of right and wrong I give to infallible. We are NOT created with an infallible brain because it would have to be infinite. (and we wouldn't have made the wrong choice of not following God advice)