Wednesday, June 5, 2013

[gita-talk] Re: Belief in Existence of God, but not Idol Worship. How to guide ?

Pranam. I have a question which I wish to share with you frankly so that I could be guided accordingly to follow.

My both grandsons, aged 21 and 18 years believe in the existence of God but do not believe in 'idol worship' in temples or in home! We tell them to worship the Lord in the morning and evening in our home and apply 'vibuthi' in the forehead and do pray by reciting some prayer! On compulsion they obey and do it. They don't believe in rituals too. Their father is no more who died in an accident when they were very young. Her mother and we(grandparents) are supporting them. One is in the final year of Engineering and the other has just completed of one year of Law at Cochin. Can we be guided in this respect and oblige to enlighten them!

With our pranams,

Balus

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Shree Hari Baluji, We have posted your query. However, as per the guidelines of this forum, kindly commit to responding to this thread, which will help us bringing it to a closure. thank you, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Dear Sirs,

Nobody "worships" idols. We worship god; idols are just mediums. That is one of the ways of experiencing god.

We cannot enjoy a sweet by merely talking about it. We must have that in our mouth to enable us to understand and feel the sweetness. That is, any experience can be validated only if it is accessible to at least one of our senses. Here in the case of idols, we experience god in the form of an idol through our eyes, one of our senses - that is the sensory perception of god.Direct experience of god is impossible without first establishing a "goal post" in our minds.

Muslims also pray with an idol in their minds and that is the Kaaba. They turn to the East recall the picture of Kaaba in their minds and to that they pray. It is wrong to say that they don't worship idols they do; but they don't replicate the Kaaba, possibly to retain the importance of the original. They picture the Kaaba every time they pray. Every mosque has also quotations from the Koran. Thus they they connect to god through sensory perceptions only. During mohurum , they carry the shape of a mosque in a procession. Christians pray to the idols of Jesus or Mary or the Cross - (a form of idol only). The Greeks in the ancient days "idolised" gods of beauty , rain , war,and so on and prayed to them.

When Muslims and Christians killed or condemned the idolators, it was only because they wanted others to pray their way and believe in their gods; that's all.

Anything that exists must occupy space. And anything that occupies space must have a shape at a given point in time. God cannot be an exception to this scientific compulsion. Since he has not revealed his looks to any one, picture him the way you choose and pray.

K.A.Krishna Rao

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Hindu idol worship is a beautiful method of worship, it's benefits transcends all other world methods to the spiritual aspirant. Now for the academically minded it would seem pointless. For the bigot of non-idolatry it is vile because their mind is thus prejudiced. For the sage it is irrelevant. To me it's a beautiful thing. The Church Alter is an idol. The Kaaba is an idol. Humans can't think formlessness. They merely say it academically. Be honest to yourself. Anil Bhanot

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Parampita Parmatma - the father of all we souls, is Nirakaar. He needs no rituals & idol worship. He is Gyaan Saagar, our Father, our Teacher, our Sad-guru. The only commitment he needs from us children is love for Him & promise of & adherence to Purity. This is the surest way to get connected to Him, our source of everything good, sweet & positive.Â

Best wishes. Om Shanti.

Sanjay Jhunjhunwala

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Dear Sri Balu I believe the answer lies like "Air is every where but we still need a fan to feel it. Like God is every where but we need idol temple to feel his presence. Kamal

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dont force anything, ten men can take a pond to a horse but no man can make it drink, such things should be taught at tender age of 8, tell them the importance with love, thay are grown up god bless you swamiji - SWAMI KRISHNANANDA

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Hari Om

There is nothing in this world which can not be called IDOL. Gita defines every Jeeva / Creature to be idol also, what to talk of inert objects. All sentient and inert bodies are idols only including currency notes. In Sanatan Dharma there is no idol worship. We worship Paramatma situate in idols. The top most principle of Sanatan Dharma is VASUDEV SARVAM ( All is God) ! If God only exists and nothing else exists,... then where is objection if somebody worships his God in an idol?

Worshipping God through an idol form is highly beneficial to humanity. It strengthens your belief and can be said to be the first step as you get initiated in spirituality thereby. People do not understand this and find a way to criticise our religion and beliefs . Worshipping God in an idol is a perfect method and there is nothing wrong in the same.

There is no Jeeva on this planet who does not do Idol worship.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Harry Desai >> However to reject or oppose Image worship is Aasuri characteristics and not Daivi characteristics in Kaliyuga.

Dear Harry Desai,

It is very strong statement to label grandsons of Balus as having aasuri characteristics. We should not pass judgment on others and Gita does not teach us to do so.

Most probably, they are rejecting blind faith of Balus or the sectarian outlook of God. The principle behind idol worship is presence of God in everyone and everywhere. Since God is all-pervading, He is in idol also. Since we can't see God everywhere, we start with idol with the goal to see God in all.

Many idol worshipers stay at the low level of seeing God in just image. That kind of worship is considered as futile as mentioned in Bhagavatam 3.29.21 to 3.29.27. When new generation sees people worshiping idols and at the same time, leading life of cheating, cruelty, non-giving, non-helping etc, then they can sense of hypocrisy. They reject the hypocrisy of idol worshipers and not idol worship. Therefore, it is very important that the devotees lead exemplary life of service, charitableness, compassion, loving and caring attitude. People develop faith on truth and dharma when they see such people.

Regards, Murari Das

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Dear Balus,

Image worship and rituals are important, but it is only one of the many ways to reach Nirvana or Moksha. However to reject or oppose Image worship is Aasuri characteristics and not Daivi characteristics in Kaliyuga. So you should explain them the stories of Ravana, Hiranyakashyapa etc. to explain that to worship only one god and oppose other will ultimately lead one to ashtray, unless one had done lots of Punya in past life, so if they are sure they have done lot of punya in previous life they should accept Image worship.

If they want further understanding tell them about concept of Dvita-Advita, which causes confusion[ Moha] even among Rushis & Maharshis.

Image worship is also accepted by Buddhists, since Buddha is the only incarnation of Bhagvan Vishnu in Kaliyuga until now , people of Arya Dharma [Hinduism] should keep with Image worship. Judaism, Islam, Christianity and Arya Samaj oppose Image worship and they outnumber people of Arya paths; Arya Dharma[ Hinduism] & Arya Marg[ Buddhism], which is natural as this is Kaliyuga. But Kaliyuga has one advantage over other yugas; One has to do lot less meditation, puja etc. to get Moksha.

Harry Desai

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dear brother,loves please let me know what type of God you want them to believe. first you should know that they are the children born and brought up in the world full of logic and reason. so you have select the method that clears their doubts and other quieries. then only they will accept the God that you want them to believe. ckkaul.

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Please do not impose your belives on your grand children let them reason it out for themselves thay are adults

arun sharma

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Sir it depends on our attitude,as to whether we perceive Divinity in the idol, or the idol as Divinity.

Denis khan

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Dear Balus nand other Sadaks, Namaskar! Read with interest debate whether or not Balus grand children should accept Idol worship or not! My following personal discussion with one Muslim mechanic of Jorhat Assam would probably soilve thre riddle question Balus has put:

the Muslim mechanic was busy repairing my scooter. Suddenly he exclaimed with a shout: One thing of ours (Hindhus) was not clear to him! I asked what happened what was that tell me! He told a sculptor makes a Murti and then how come that very Murti becomes the God of that sculptor. He went on say this was very much ridiculous!!! For a moment I too was mum dumb and felt what he told is very much correct!! Suddenly as if it came direct from Parmeshwer himself I said then tell what should have been done otherwise. He said what is to be done!!! Just remember Allah and always bow to him!! I asked him how could we bow!!! I asked have you seen HIM??.....No, Has your father?...No, His father? ...No.....anybody till now.?....probably No!!! I immediately said till you get the real Allah before me, I would continue to manage with Murti, artificial one!

The point is Idol worship is for beginners on path of spirituality. Nothing can be wrong, when there is no duality, Vasudeva Sarvam!

Kuldeep K. Kaul

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Pranam

Let them explore themselves through good books of Swami Vivekananda. Let them learn the translation of Mantras. That can infuse in them a mental attitude towards worship also. It may take some time. BUT THEY SHOULD BE IN company of cultured people.

M K Muju ----------------------------------------------------------

People who believe in god but not idol worship are only half rational. Just ask them whether they have their photographs in their pass-port, pan-card, voder ID card and driving licence. Now these pictures in government documents are not these people themselves but help in identifying them. Same is the story about national flag. No body says tri-colour is India but every one respects it as much as the country itself because it represents the country. Idol worship is the same rational. Nobody says it is god but just the symbol same way the person is represented by photograph in his pass-port.

Even Christians and muslims who talk endlessly against idol worship have idols of cross (symbol) around their neck or posters of Kaaba in their drawing rooms.

Once one Christian missionary from England told Vivekananda that Hindus are fools to consider idol as god when it is only a stone. Vivekananda did not reply but only spat on the photograph of Queen of England. English Christian missionary was very furious and said you have insulted our Queen. On this Vivekanda asked "Why ? I spat only on the piece of paper ! Is the piece of paper Queen of England ? If not, why he thought I insulted the queen ? Christian missionary got the message !

In Hinduism idol or image worship is just initiation into the belief in a Supreme Power from which all creations emerged, exist and merge back. It can be compared to initiating into learning by starting with the alphabets and slowly progressing as a master of the subject. There has to be a beginning for everything. One cannot join a race without following the basic principles. The question "Why follow the principles when I am ready to partake in the race?" is immature and thereby one fails to be a good athlete. When one systematically progresses in his study of scriptures, he/she will understand how significant or insignificant the idol/image worship was. In Sanatana Dharma in its highest form there is no name, form, attributes etc. But to realize this there is a long way to go by studying the scriptures carefully with attention interest and sincerity. As an youngster I too was of the mind-set of your grandsons, but before accepting or rejecting the concept I took the pain of understanding the principles underlying idol/image worship because even great Saints like Adi Shankaracharya, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Swami Vivekananda, Swami Chinmayananda, Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi etc. have not talked against idol/image worship and in their teachings encouraged sadhaks to start with idol worship. Moreover, idol/image worship is like the lower rung of the ladder without which we cannot hope to reach higher level in our spiritual quest. Read "Kindle Life" written by Swamiji Chinmayananda, even an atheist will not have another say in the matter. Mohan Nair

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Namste

What every one said on the question is true, But can we convince these boys on all the points touched. The impacr of the explanation comes from the source from which it came.. Therefore I suggest that let your grand children visit once sri Ramanasramam and read life and Talks with Maharshi.

Ramana Sarma

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If someone believes in the existence of God?Almighty/Creator, that is a great characteristic in itself. It does not matter if they do not believe in 'idol' worship or rituals. The fact that they do not object to or argue against your worshippin idle or your practicing rituals is also a great quality. We should not worry. But you owe an explanation to them: you need to tell them that you worship God with an idol or deity in front because it helps ypu conceptualise God much moreeasily andrelate to Him. But there are Santana Dharma/ Hindi Dharma scriptures where one can meditate upon or worship the Formless / Nirakar God. You can also tell them that the rituals have become habit for you from childhood days and you feel better psychologically practicing them along with Mantras. About Mantras, you can translate them into English and give them copies so that they understand what youare saying to God through the Mantras. They will feel better if they see you explain what you do rather than pleading them to follow you. Basudeb Sen

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Dear Sadhak, We do not worship idol or image, but the ideal that they represent. When you look at the photo of your near and dear ones, you do not think of the material with which the photo is made but to the memory of those whom you love or respect. Similarly, each name, form and attributes given to different deities should be remembered when you stand in prayer before the idol or image. In fact, these idols and images are just tools to help you to train your mind to absorb in concentration and thereafter fly higher in spirituality which is beyond name, form, attributes etc. Mohan Nair

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dear Gita Group members Spiritualism is different and need not be confused with idol worship or religious mindedness. A person may be spiritual but not necessarily religious/idol worshiper. thanks and regards G K Agrawal

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Rituals (idol worship specially) when forced on growing young children, often result in strengthening their anti-ritual mentality. Please follow the principle : Example is better than Precepts. Humbly, Saadhaka

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Balus,

They don't need to do idol worship. God resides in everyone and everywhere. Therefore, they can worship God who is in us. How is that done?

Treat people around with love, respect, care and service attitude. See the presence of God and have sense gratitude, respect and reverence. This is more powerful than just worshiping idols.

Please read these Srimad Bhagavatam statements carefully --

SB 3.29.21: I am present in every living entity as the Supersoul. If someone neglects or disregards that Supersoul everywhere and engages himself in the worship of the Deity in the temple, that is simply imitation.

SB 3.29.22: One who worships the Deity of Godhead in the temples but does not know that the Supreme Lord, as Paramàtmà, is situated in every living entity's heart, must be in ignorance and is compared to one who offers oblations into ashes.

SB 3.29.23: One who offers Me respect but is envious of the bodies of others and is therefore a separatist never attains peace of mind, because of his inimical behavior towards other living entities.

SB 3.29.24: My dear Mother, even if he worships with proper rituals and paraphernalia, a person who is ignorant of My presence in all living entities never pleases Me by the worship of My Deities in the temple.

SB 3.29.25: Performing his prescribed duties, one should worship the Deity of the Supreme Personality of Godhead until one realizes My presence in his own heart and in the hearts of other living entities as well.

SB 3.29.26: As the blazing fire of death, I cause great fear to whoever makes the least discrimination between himself and other living entities because of a differential outlook.

SB 3.29.27: Therefore, through charitable gifts and attention, as well as through friendly behavior and by viewing all to be alike, one should propitiate Me, who abide in all creatures as their very Self.

Hopefully, these statements of Bhagavatam clarify your doubt. They don't need to worship idols. Lets them be kind and loving person who has sense of gratitude towards God.

Regards, Murari Das

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Why is idol worship or vibhuti or rituals that important ? You as grandparents have given them good values and that is all that matters. Unless, as grandparents you are not sure of the values. Let them bloom and become individuals in their own right. Hopefully, they will both make you and their Mom very proud some day.

Kalpana Jaggi

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Hari Om Balus,

Since my kids were 3-4 years old, we do prayers. We chant mantras in sankrits for 1-2 mins and do prayer in mother tongue for 1-2 mins. This takes total 5 mins. We try to do it at least once a day and most of times twice a day - morning and evening. Sometimes, kids don't want to do it. I remind them that they are showing gratitude towards God for giving them everything. I had asthma and many times, I just wanted breathe. At least, they can breathe properly. They have so many things in life to be thankful of.

They don't need to do these prayers to idols. They can do them to God within them. God within us hears whenever we talk. Listening to God is sometimes called inspiration from within. Developing the sense of presence of God in our life is great support which helps us to be strong and steady in the life and also, be happy and optimistic. Help them develop inner understanding of God instead of focusing on rituals or idols.

Regards, Murari Das

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To see God, you have to be there. So, you is all.You and what you are observing, experiencing is a singular process and not that God is an object separate from you. Now to realise God, Truth-'Why' you want to realize, the motive behind realisation contains the key and not any answer. Any answer will satisfy the intellect only. God is essentially used as an explanation, a device to cover up pain and uncertainty. If the comfort of this explanation is not there, see what you find out? What is being conveyed is that if you just do not depend upon what is referred as God, you are one with yourself, one with pain and uncertainty you are facing. All pain and uncertainty is psychological discomfort, if it is not immediate physical danger. You can always see rest here and now. Here you have a brush with Truth, the Original energy. You may authentically know âwhat God meansâ.

To experience pain (any uneasiness) and uncertainty is normal. There is nothing to feel comfortable about future now. This can just be made clear to the children not as an assertion or application but through daily interactions. Children will sense freedom to create, to find 'what is True'. Y V Chawla

-------------------------------------------------------- No 'Event' in this Cosmos can happen without a 'Cause' and without the involvement of some amount of some kind of 'Energy'

Since this cosmos is an event, there must be a cause for its creation. The cause of Creation of this Cosmos was a fundamentally correct concept by the Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs)They named this Cause as God, Ishwar and the like.

This concept is abstract in nature. To give it a physical form, the idols were created. Worship is nothing by meditation

Gee Waman ----------------------------------------------------------

A simple suggestion. They are grown adult about whom we are talking. Let them try to sense their heart-bits along with the cosmic sound "AuM" and they themselves will understand what is what. No question of thrusting any pre-conceived ideas let them understand themselves. Only thing to be followed is time and place of the seat of course direction of orientation is an added advantage.

Barin Chatterjee

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One should ask themselves first, does one understand what are all those practices about. If he is confused, so will children be. Your narrative in terms of prayer and worship and God is christian narrative so they will think like christians. One cannot blame a child if he talks when he learns. What word in Samskrutam implies idol worship. What is the word for worship in Samskrutam? If you do not have a word, then you translations may be wrong and teh imagery you are building must be wrong too. Ravindra Koul -------------------------------------------

Idol worship is not necessary, search on Arshabodha, understanding G without faith lectures in English have your grandsons listen to it. Let me know how it works out