This is a discussion on Pre-flop all-ins? within the online poker forums, in the Learning Poker section; I have been playing online now for 2 years and I am still not sure when best to push my chips in when I get

Pre-flop all-ins?

I have been playing online now for 2 years and I am still not sure when best to push my chips in when I get QQ or KK? I have no problem with AA....but I just hate getting all my chips in After an A hits the flop....then again I love making my move before the other guy! I guess my question is....how do you play these cards ....push early or slow-play ...hoping no Ace hits the flop..and trap your oppenent?

#2

5th January 2010, 3:29 PM

ethon [354]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: PLO8

Bet enough preflop to get Ace-rag out of the hand. If youre first to act on the flop and there's an ace on the board, you still should cbet it and see where you're at in the hand. If the villain moves over top, it's probably a pretty safe fold. Don't get too caught up in your PP unless you still have some pretty good chances of improving.

#3

5th January 2010, 3:31 PM

tpb221 [2,095]

Online Poker at: poker stars

Game: holdem

What are you playing-ring games or tourneys/sng. Need more info to help.

#4

5th January 2010, 3:32 PM

leon818 [84]

Poker at: none

I guess it really depends on how the oppenent bet. I would say never push allin unless 100% sure that you got the biggest hand.

#5

5th January 2010, 3:48 PM

Roger1960 [567]

Online Poker at: BO, BCP,

Game: holdem,omaha

It makes a big difference how many chips you have, what the blinds are, when in the tourney it is. A lot of players won't fold A rag, so betting to try to get them to fold an A is futile.
As a rule I bet 3X the BB, when I have AA, KK I will go 4or5X the BB, depending on position and if someone bets before me. You want to bet kind of big to chase the 22's out, I ran into someone calling 5X the BB with 88, I had KK an 8 hit the flop, good thing for me an A hit the flop also or I would have lost a lot of chips. If the A didn't hit, I was going to go all in. I had almost half my stack in, since an A hit, I folded to build my stack up again.

#6

5th January 2010, 6:33 PM

salim271 [1,678]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

re: Poker & Pre-flop all-ins?

Originally Posted by Roger1960

It makes a big difference how many chips you have, what the blinds are, when in the tourney it is. A lot of players won't fold A rag, so betting to try to get them to fold an A is futile.
As a rule I bet 3X the BB, when I have AA, KK I will go 4or5X the BB, depending on position and if someone bets before me. You want to bet kind of big to chase the 22's out, I ran into someone calling 5X the BB with 88, I had KK an 8 hit the flop, good thing for me an A hit the flop also or I would have lost a lot of chips. If the A didn't hit, I was going to go all in. I had almost half my stack in, since an A hit, I folded to build my stack up again.

I dont think a bet that wont scare an 88 out will scare a 22 out, if you flop a set of 222 you'll be just as assured that you can beat AA or KK as if you have a set of 888. Set over set is just too rare to worry about, more likely you have a cold deck if that happens.

Playing KK and QQ is hard, they're premium starting hands but too many flops can destroy almost all their value in the hand. If we always knew when our opponent has an ace in their hand, and theres an ace on the board, there would be no question, you would fold KK in a second, you know your beat. What keeps you playing with that ace on the board is that you dont know if you're beat, and grasping at straws and hoping you arent.

Playing against someone who will call you down with A-rag is hard, but playing with someone who called you down with AQ/33 is easy on a board like A73. On the flop simply cbet, if your opponent comes out with a raise with that ace on the board congrats, you've just been outpaired/setted on the flop. If they fold then you would probably not have got any action on the turn or river unless they hit big, which you don't want them to do anyways.

If they call your bet on the flop, you have a problem. Either they're slowplaying a monster, or unsure if they have the best hand (they have A-rag) and want to see a showdown by just calling. Here you have to know your opponents. If you know your opponent is tight, give it up, they probably have a monster and are trying to extract maximum value, if they are loose, its possible they called your cbet with nothing or something like K7 (middle pair on the example flop) or they have A-rag. In my opinion if you check the turn, K7 will check behind, and A-rag will do the same or might bet (If they bet, I would most likely fold because at the levels i play at, players dont know how to outplay someone and steal.) If checked to the river you could try and check again, but K7 would probably even bet out if you do, so you could try to just minimize your loss again by setting up how much they have to call/raise. If they raise, you know you're beat, if they call you showdown and if you lose, you paid a price but it could have been as small as 1/5 of your stack in a tournament, instead of your whole stack pushing on the flop and hoping no one had an ace. If they call and you win, the final bet was a value bet. If they fold, well, you had the best hand all along.

In the end, you dont gain as much as if you pushed on the flop, got called by weak ace/strong ace/trips and you suckout on the river and hit your third king or queen. But if you play it right, you wont lose as much if you're behind.

This is just the way i go about it when I'm not sure about how well off my big pocket pairs like KK and QQ are, it may not be the best format but its served me pretty well, and I've gotten out of a few losing situations with it.

#7

5th January 2010, 8:20 PM

Weregoat [665]

Game: Hold'Em

Originally Posted by leon818

I guess it really depends on how the oppenent bet. I would say never push allin unless 100% sure that you got the biggest hand.

From a cash game standpoint:
You push all in when you are either the favorite to win or not the favorite to win and you want your opponent to fold the hand.

If I have KdQk on a board that reads JdTc4d, I have no problem shoving. However that's not always the best play. The object is to win the most money, not win the most pots. And if I'm at 400 BBs, and the villian is at 400 BBs, and the pot has 8 BBs in it, this is an incorrect play. I should bet, and hope he has AJ or two lesser diamonds. If I get reraised I'll pop him again, until he either calls or all my money's in the pot.

Back to answer the question of the OP, you have KK. You never go all-in unless it's a pot appropriate bet, or you're short stacked. (Short stack shoves tend to get a plethora of callers - either out of sympathy or what . . . but . . . ) definitely raise here. If you get reraised by a very tight player, (like, 12% of hands, raises with 9%, or you haven't seen them play a hand since you got to the table, etc), then you might be behind. Sometimes this guy wakes up with AKs and is drawing to three outs.

If an A comes and somebody represents it, based on your/their stack sizes, you have to decide if you want to believe him or not.

Never be afraid to get your money in preflop with KK. There's only one hand that beats you, and a lot more that are behind.

Unless you can put a player on AA, you are right to raise preflop - and the raise preflop will be an excellent way to find out if you are beat.

KK is going to run into AA from time to time. You pretty much have to pay them off if both of you play your hand right or you get some clairvoyant urge to call instead or reraise preflop. And even then, they have to make a set before you're sure you're hand's not best.

#8

5th January 2010, 8:53 PM

blackmax [163]

Poker at: fulltilt

Game: Holdem omaha

In truth it just depends on the flow of the game...Personally i would not go all in preflop with QQ unless i was way ahead in chips.

#9

5th January 2010, 9:18 PM

Weregoat [665]

Game: Hold'Em

Originally Posted by blackmax

In truth it just depends on the flow of the game...Personally i would not go all in preflop with QQ unless i was way ahead in chips.

Try way behind?

#10

5th January 2010, 9:26 PM

Kasanova King [798]

Poker at: UB

Game: NLHE,Omaha

Depends on the table & who your opponents are. Never fold KK in a cash game pre-flop no matter who your opponents are, and never, ever try to slow play KK - if the blinds is all you get b/c everyone folded to your pre-flop raise, so be it, winning a bb is better than losing your entire stack b/c someone limps in with A- rag and hits an ace on the flop - I've seen that happen many of times.

QQ are a little trickier - for some reason I always seem to play them right - get a lot of money in pre-flop and some donk calls with K-8 off and spikes a K on the turn - lol. They really depend on who your opponent is, type of raises pre-flop, etc but you should play them very aggressively pre-flop and depending on who the villain is, it's usually pretty safe to shove with them pre-flop too.
'

#11

5th January 2010, 10:52 PM

theupperhand [23]

Online Poker at: fulltilt

Game: holdem

you cant play K's Q's or A's the same way every time you half to mix it up a little

#12

5th January 2010, 10:58 PM

dan [128]

Poker at: PS FT

Game: holdem oma

re: Poker & Pre-flop all-ins?

what game are you playing why all in? are you a short stacker?

#13

5th January 2010, 11:09 PM

Weregoat [665]

Game: Hold'Em

Dan has joined the thread! Wooo!

#14

5th January 2010, 11:58 PM

peacebrother [121]

Poker at: stars,ub,ft

Game: nlhe

all in pre flop is just dumb, unless you are the caller and someone shoves on your aa or kk.

Do not be scared to see the flop 3x the blind is good if your beat lay em down , they flop trips and snap you off just part of a long term game.

don't get $$$ signs in your mind when you get AA KK QQ just play and try to maximize the hand.

win big loose small

#15

6th January 2010, 2:31 AM

Sumun [142]

Online Poker at: FTP

Game: Holdem

Originally Posted by salim271

I dont think a bet that wont scare an 88 out will scare a 22 out, if you flop a set of 222 you'll be just as assured that you can beat AA or KK as if you have a set of 888. Set over set is just too rare to worry about, more likely you have a cold deck if that happens.

Playing KK and QQ is hard, they're premium starting hands but too many flops can destroy almost all their value in the hand. If we always knew when our opponent has an ace in their hand, and theres an ace on the board, there would be no question, you would fold KK in a second, you know your beat. What keeps you playing with that ace on the board is that you dont know if you're beat, and grasping at straws and hoping you arent.

Playing against someone who will call you down with A-rag is hard, but playing with someone who called you down with AQ/33 is easy on a board like A73. On the flop simply cbet, if your opponent comes out with a raise with that ace on the board congrats, you've just been outpaired/setted on the flop. If they fold then you would probably not have got any action on the turn or river unless they hit big, which you don't want them to do anyways.

If they call your bet on the flop, you have a problem. Either they're slowplaying a monster, or unsure if they have the best hand (they have A-rag) and want to see a showdown by just calling. Here you have to know your opponents. If you know your opponent is tight, give it up, they probably have a monster and are trying to extract maximum value, if they are loose, its possible they called your cbet with nothing or something like K7 (middle pair on the example flop) or they have A-rag. In my opinion if you check the turn, K7 will check behind, and A-rag will do the same or might bet (If they bet, I would most likely fold because at the levels i play at, players dont know how to outplay someone and steal.) If checked to the river you could try and check again, but K7 would probably even bet out if you do, so you could try to just minimize your loss again by setting up how much they have to call/raise. If they raise, you know you're beat, if they call you showdown and if you lose, you paid a price but it could have been as small as 1/5 of your stack in a tournament, instead of your whole stack pushing on the flop and hoping no one had an ace. If they call and you win, the final bet was a value bet. If they fold, well, you had the best hand all along.

In the end, you dont gain as much as if you pushed on the flop, got called by weak ace/strong ace/trips and you suckout on the river and hit your third king or queen. But if you play it right, you wont lose as much if you're behind.

This is just the way i go about it when I'm not sure about how well off my big pocket pairs like KK and QQ are, it may not be the best format but its served me pretty well, and I've gotten out of a few losing situations with it.

thats interesting info, ill keep it in mind when playing those pp

sometimes im just agressive and others i flat call waiting for a good flop to play it all, or fold if its not good

#16

6th January 2010, 2:37 AM

rcrocketman [142]

Poker at: full tilt

Game: holdem

I never go all in on the pre flop ill bet 3 to 5 times the antie because AA OR KK is still only a pair

#17

2nd February 2010, 9:24 PM

Poker Orifice [17,377]

Game: NLHE

Originally Posted by ethon

Bet enough preflop to get Ace-rag out of the hand. If youre first to act on the flop and there's an ace on the board, you still should cbet it and see where you're at in the hand. If the villain moves over top, it's probably a pretty safe fold. Don't get too caught up in your PP unless you still have some pretty good chances of improving.

THis will work against weak players but really I think it's ill-advised if you're playing decent players... reason being you've just turned your hand into a bluff (villain could have a weaker hand then your's but raises your bet, representing an Ace... getting you to fold the best hand). I believe this is a better spot to check/call (or it might get checked back to you), then giving you an oppurtunity to pick off a bluff if villain bets the turn.

agree about the first part though.... bet out enough pre to get Ax hands to fold.

As far as late level pl,ay goes, & whether or not you're shoving over with QQ,.. it depends on alot of things aside from just what your own two cards are. Generally if my stack is less than 22bb's (<< but again... 'that' is even dependent on alot of things.. ie. if avg. stack size is real shallow due to players all playing too tight as blinds go up)... I"m going to get it in over any raiser... or any raiser & flatcaller... QQ is getting it allin.

#18

4th February 2010, 10:06 PM

worditst [130]

Poker at: Full Tilt Po

Game: Hold Em

re: Poker & Pre-flop all-ins?

I'll try to get my money all-in with KK or AA no matter what pre-flop. I honestly don't know how to play QQ.. 2 hands that beat me and one hand that is on par with me (AKs)

#19

5th February 2010, 12:12 AM

steak vegita [151]

Online Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem

with QQ, KK, or AA or Ak i would just bet enough that you know no bad hands are going to stay in. If you see a good flop then let them make the mistake of going all in and take em out.

#20

5th February 2010, 4:19 AM

dwolfg [582]

Poker at: full tilt

Game: omaha

Like many have said, it depends on the game situation, but for the most part playing them aggressively is the way to go. If you are the preflop aggressor, then an a or k comes on the flop you can still represent the a or k. Playing passively and trying to trap with one pair can lead to a disaster later in the hand when, on a a73 flop, the turn brings a 6 and the person trying to catch a big flop earlier with 76 suited catches two pair or 45 suited completes the straight.

#21

5th February 2010, 6:08 PM

Pafkata [192]

Online Poker at: FullTilt

Game: NL Holdem

You can read this:

http://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/

It's perfect strategy for cases when you have KK/QQ and there's an Ace on the board.

It's actually very simple:

1. We have KK
2. Ace hits the board

- we are either way ahead if opponent does not have A/set/two pair
- we are behind if he has A,set or two pair

3. We don't cbet to limit our losses if we are behind
4. We expect villain to bet as a bluff with middle/bottom pair or a draw
5. We never call a big raise , because we are probably behind, but always call small bets. Watch out for completed draws !
6. In the end, we are winning more when we are ahead and losing the same amount when behind

Moreover, we can hit our set on turn or river, while we don't see those cards when we get re-raised on the flop.

#22

6th February 2010, 1:21 AM

swrittenb [244]

Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: FLH, NLH

Originally Posted by Weregoat

Never be afraid to get your money in preflop with KK. There's only one hand that beats you, and a lot more that are behind.

I agree in many cases, but in general, the most probable hand you're going to successfully get all the money in against is AA, or AT+, in which case you'll steam a good deal of the time.

#23

6th February 2010, 5:34 PM

Exit141RTe1 [1,151]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

I tried it just a few minutes ago. Allin with AA. Got a caller with pocket nines. You will never guess what the river card was............

I think I will go post on the Attitude threat.

#24

9th February 2010, 6:06 AM

worditst [130]

Poker at: Full Tilt Po

Game: Hold Em

re: Poker & Pre-flop all-ins?

Originally Posted by Exit141RTe1

I tried it just a few minutes ago. Allin with AA. Got a caller with pocket nines. You will never guess what the river card was............

Slow play for me to be avoided. Check or call pre flop and flop A or K pretty much makes my Qs real scary, unless I'm willing to bet-call-raise to the river on the off-chance I hit my set. Of course, I can still be ok but will often have to pay more than I want to to find out im bad. Better 3-5 bb pre, depending on table. I used to all-in AA, KK, AK suit pre flop, but at the micro stakes I play, I've been called by the donkiest hands you can think of and lost..... Somehow a 2-7 os will fold to a 5bb easier than an all in..... go figure...lol Trouble is, u never know when the 33 or K5os will call your 3-5bb either, (I am speaking about my stakes) hopefully u have a read on your opponents.

#26

9th February 2010, 4:56 PM

zjohnzzz [619]

Poker at: intertops

Game: omaha h/l

stack size,position, blind size, and texture of table just too name a few factors

#27

9th February 2010, 6:15 PM

adsthepro123 [92]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Game: Holdem

kk

it all depend on the situation you are in, if you are short stacked and the blinds are high then stick your chips in the middle. You could easily come up against a hand like a q a k or a j but you could also be dominating them if they have a hand like QQ JJ 10 10 99 etc.
you have to get your money in the middle.
However if you are deep stacked in a tournament then slowplay them, see a cheapish flop and then decide how strong your opponent is and whether you think you are ahead.
adsthepro