There are 2 ways to combat circular logic. Both are kind of tricky and require you to think differently. They also determine who's in charge. Sometimes, it is best to go along with the circular logic to "keep the harmony." Striking a correct balance is the key and the hardest part. Too many people get so upset with things being gray, that they never figure the exact shade of gray they should be on.

1. Yes-yes-yes-NO/No-no-no-Yes argument. I've seen Chinese do this with regularity. You build-up a logical case with an easily drawn conclusion and they totally reject the conclusion, or you talk to them about something that shouldn't be done and get the invariable, "Yes, but..." Start using this technique yourself. Western logic is useless against people who act illogically at times and are heavy believers in fate. This technique takes alot of practice and you have to learn your limits as to how far you can go with it.

2. "Wo wang ji le/ wo bu zhi dao, bu hao yi si" This is I forgot/I didn't know, how embarrassing. This is a common tactic for employees. They then meekly give in to what ever verbal scolding, which is surprisingly light, because they don't argue back just stand there with a silent, slightly embarrassed/shocked look on their face. It works like a charm. "Bu hao yi si" is the grease that keeps Chinese society running. It's like saying sorry, but not meaning it and makes everyone happy.

While you're trying these out don't forget about "hao ting." This is incredibly powerful. Literally transaltes as "good to hear." This is why Chinese people lay it on heavy with all the compliments and sweet words. Even if you know it is complete bull$h1t(it normally is), you will be swayed into thinking favorably of them. Please use it in the same token, as it works better when done by "proud arrogant" westerners(the way they see us) to "poor little" Chinese(they way they like to portray themselves when not getting their way).

Two books to read to better arm yourself are
1. "Thick Face, Black Heart" by Chin-Ning Chu
2. "Influence: Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert B. Cialdini

"Broad Generalizations"
Psychology and logic are your greatest advantages. Chinese are great at rote memorization, they can tell you "the what" but not "the why". Do some research into psychology, specifically Chinese psychology. Michael Harris Bond has a few books on it. Watch how Chinese interact and talk to them about it in an offhand manner, not to raise any suspicions. Plan for contingencies, Chinese are constantly doing this. Ni shiang tai duo le/you think to much is a common Chinese phrase/scold. There are other techniques and I'm no pro at all(any?) of them.

Like I said before, practice and technique are very important. Don't get hung up on meanings/set forms, learn to go with the flow and redirect it. Start seeing how other's problems wouldn't be problems for you and think why, but do not tell them! Nobody likes a showoff or someone more successful than them. You have to learn to keep your moth shut and employ "hao ting" to good effect.

I see you've been reading the "Art of War" and the "36 Strategies" or some book with those ideas in them. He's pretty much right about it all. I fully concur with the points written and expresse by "TheyCallMeTrinity."

TheyCallMeTrinity wrote:
"Trust me, eating Tawianese cold, raw, and with your hands can be a life-affirming, wonderful thing - so to speak."

This is so true. Taiwan and Taiwanese have taught me so much about myself and the kind of person I want to be. There are only 2 types of long termers here. Those who go native and those who learn how to play the game.

TheyCallMeTrinity wrote:
"I have come the conclusion that products of the Taiwanese education system cannot compete when their own logic is used against them. We, educated outside of the farce that is the Taiwanese education system - have the benefit of being able to utilize rational thought, intuition, and creative, independent thinking. We adapt very well to situations and can turn tables easier. This is their (dirty, filthy, corrupt) land and their (dirty, filthy, corrupt) rules. The only way to beat them at their own game is to learn how to play it and then subject them to it at ten times the speed."

This is exactly why Asia will never catch up to the west. We learn how to learn, they don't. An fortunately, they refuse to listen to laowai.

This is so true. Taiwan and Taiwanese have taught me so much about myself and the kind of person I want to be. There are only 2 types of long termers here. Those who go native and those who learn how to play the game.[/b][/i]

I wish I could say the same thing. Instead, it has taught me that I can be a person I NEVER wanted to be: cold, ruthless, mean-spirited and delighted at screwing over someone whom I thought would do the same to me.

I am not a long termer in terms of having a future here. I'm only a long-termer in terms of sticking around. If there wasn't global war going on I'd split to Japan sooner with no worries. I've been here a couple of years and will be here until 2005 and then it's off to somewhere more civilized, or if I am lucky enough to save enough money (without working myself to the bone) I'll head back to Japan sooner. I've had my fill of the "civilized savages" here. I don't hate it here nor do I hate the locals, but I TRUST NOTHING here. I am spiteful that they behave like animals to themselves, and never find it surprising we are trated as equals in that respect. Not one person or thing here do I trust. Taiwan taught me that. I'd rather be naive, but such is not in my personality.

This is exactly why Asia will never catch up to the west. We learn how to learn, they don't. An fortunately, they refuse to listen to laowai.

CYA
Okami

I disagree. Despite some of their economic problems, Japan and Hong Kong buck this trend. They are generally civilized places, save the fact that many Hong Kongese will rip each other off with abandon. You can take the Chinese out of China but you can't take the China out of the Chinese. I will, however, agree that ALL ethnically Chinese societies cannot behave themselves unless: a.) Foreign colonizers established a buttload of guidelines for them to follow (England with Hong Kong), forcing them to adapt to ways that actually protect them, or they are ruled with a brutal, iron-hand that deprives them of any freedom because Chinese soical order only shows that Chinese ABUSE freedom by using it to enslave each other, so they must be under a permanent state of "babysitting" ala B.) Singapore. In Singapore, Papa "Lee" and his nannies tell you what you can watch, hear and read and maintain law and order by spoiling the rod and not sparing the "child." It's like most only seem to understand spaking. Sadly, Taiwan - one of the few to have a semblence of a "Democracy" - has proven it cannot behave, nor can it establish any semblence of fair and equal law and order. They only understand being "spanked" (literally or euphamistically). Far too many Taiwanese are uncognisent thieves, liars and are morally unscrupulous - those that defy this stereotype often get the hell outta dodge, post haste.

Why else is it that they want to come to Western Countries that have established order that protects an individual's rights? They simply don't care about each other and are sloths and too lazy to change things, for the most part. Really, most Taiwanese homes are filthy and housewives really DO NOTHING and if they can't do this for themselves, what makes them able to do this with each other? They don't really clean either. Dispicable.

Unlike Korea, where the xenophobia and racism is carried around with pride, here it simply comes from stupidity. Most are not willing participants but naive fools who don't know better.

Taiwan is a nation run by school yard rules. So, I advise folks to make money, make love to the locals, and to get out once you've had your fill. That's what every foreign force did to China and Taiwan anyway....

Probably tucked away in your closet. To quote the late Frank Zappa, "Take the day and walk around/ watch the nazis run your town/ then go home and check yourself/ You think we're singing about someone else but you're plastic people too..."

Not to sound pedantic, but 'hao ting' (like 'hao he' 'hao kan' 'hao chi', etc.) means more like 'the sound is good', as in the actual sound being pleasant to the ears. 'na ting hao le' is more like 'that sounds good' as in the idea is good. Switch the hao and the ting.
But everything else is spot on, for the most part. Having been in China and planning on Taiwan, and being foolish enough to take Mandarin while in college, I can play the Chinese game very well. Chinese culture sucks the idealism and romanticism right out of you. Now I'm one bad mother fucker.

They throw their trash on the ground without even thinking about it. I watched one guy walk out of a convenience store today and casually throw his cigarette package wrapping on the ground, along with the tin foil. I asked him why he did that, pointing to the garbage at his feet and he just shrugged his shoulders and then rode away on his scooter.

Saw the same thing on on Thursday night. Guy buys a note book. Walks out of the store, sits on a bench, unwraps the book and just drops all of the plastic on the ground! I couldn't belive it!

[quote]it has taught me that I can be a person I NEVER wanted to be: cold, ruthless, mean-spirited and delighted at screwing over someone whom I thought would do the same to me. [/quote]

I agree with this quote.

I can't believe how dishonest they can be. I went into work and asked for my January pay. The owner said that she had just got back from Hong Kong and didn't have any money. Bullshit!! I told her I wouldn't teach until I got paid for January. Pay day was on February 6th and I demanded my money. Well, she caughed up the money and I went in to teach. They would rip you off in a heart beat and I definitely don't trust them with money. They almost have to have something hanging over them to make them pay you on time. Very tough and go.

[quote]I've had my fill of the "civilized savages" here. I don't hate it here nor do I hate the locals, but I TRUST NOTHING here. I am spiteful that they behave like animals to themselves, and never find it surprising we are trated as equals in that respect. Not one person or thing here do I trust. Taiwan taught me that. [/quote]

I was walking home tonight and I thought the same thing. I was afraid to walk on the side of the road as the motorcyles were almost hitting me! Scared the crap out of me. If there was ever a chance that I'd be hit and seriously injured or killed by a car - it would be here in Taiwan!

They drive lik Friggin' animals!! Seriously. Just watch them on their bikes weaving in and out of traffic and riding on the sidewalks.

Unbelievable. Animals!!
The aggression is amazing.

They insist on the right of way and do not back down for anything.

It's actually amusing to watch them drive.

[quote]ALL ethnically Chinese societies cannot behave themselves unless: a.) Foreign colonizers established a buttload of guidelines for them to follow (England with Hong Kong), forcing them to adapt to ways that actually protect them, or they are ruled with a brutal, iron-hand that deprives them of any freedom because Chinese soical order only shows that Chinese ABUSE freedom by using it to enslave each other, so they must be under a permanent state of "babysitting" ala B.) Singapore. In Singapore, Papa "Lee" and his nannies tell you what you can watch, hear and read and maintain law and order by spoiling the rod and not sparing the "child." It's like most only seem to understand spaking. Sadly, Taiwan - one of the few to have a semblence of a "Democracy" - has proven it cannot behave, nor can it establish any semblence of fair and equal law and order. They only understand being "spanked" (literally or euphamistically). Far too many Taiwanese are uncognisent thieves, liars and are morally unscrupulous - those that defy this stereotype often get the hell outta dodge, post haste.
[/quote]

Yeah, I agree - They act like children who need to be watched and monitored because they don't know how to act fairly or responsible.

My own students have even admitted this in one of my corporate classes that I teach when we've discussed the political situation in China and Taiwan and how the governments behave.

A good example is the pirating of licensed goods.

China is a huge offender in this respect. But they're seen as an iresponisble child. Not capable of acting responsibly.

Please grow up? Firstly, I'm not spewing racist garbage in a forum that is supposed to be for discussing your job as an English teacher. Find another forum, preferably David Duke's to spread your crap about your perceived inferiority of Chinese societies.

If you don't think what you say is offensive garbage, then print off a copy and show it to your Taiwanese employer. If you have any teeth left (let alone a job) when s/he finishes reading it, then I guess what you say is ok.

A little bit of knowledge is always a dangerous thing. Do you really think that your relatively short amount of time spent in Asia, along with (maybe) a few books read, makes you some kind of expert on Chinese society? In order to have an informed opinion, you would have to have completed an advanced degree in Asian studies or politics as well as having spent a signifigant amount of time (in a role other than that of English teacher) observing Chinese governments up close. I don't think you've done either.

Do you really think your home society is so much better? Take a really close look. There are alot of things the Taiwanese do well. Go to a guetto in a western city if you want to see people living like animals. And where you feel safer at night? The streets of Taipei or the streets of a similarly sized North American city (be honest).

The people who are writing some of the crap in this string don't deserve a tenth of the respect that is probably showered on them by their Taiwanese employers. They don't deserve their too high salaries and they don't deserve the comfortable lifestyle the people of Taiwan have given to them. If you don't like it here, you can always... And the sooner the better!

I try to stay as moderate as possible between the Chinese culture is trash or glorious arguments. A person has to come here and see for themselves how it is. I've seen a lot of broken hearts here and I've seen a lot of people have their eyes opened.

Negatives:
On one hand you see how the Chinese live and how their cities look.
Betelnut, you'll learn, though I like to chew it
The air
Construction standards
Roads especially road repair
Politicians
Racist, just below the surface attitude against anyone foreign

Middle ground:
Enforcement of laws(my Indonesian friend is impressed by how much they obey them, where I am distressed by how much they ignore them. It's a matter of perception)
Employment, (High pay for few hours, but no respect or chance for bettering yourself.)
Cha bu duo attitude(trying to get something done accurately here or get an accurate answer can be infuriating, but can also work to your advantage)

Positives:
You will probably never see such a high concentration of BMWs and Mercedes anywhere except possibly Germany(There is an insane amount of money here)
Women(If you can't get laid here, than you're pathetic)
Money
Laidback life
Low cost of living

Chinese people on the other hand can be a mixed bag. It really depends non their attitudes towards foreigners. Most Chinese don't speak to or know many foreigners. Most of them have this really strange idea of how we live and act due to such ignorance. In much the same way we have a view of them that may not be accurate or true. They have a very different outlook on many things and a different way of living. There is many things you will not like or be appalled by in Taiwan. There will also be a lot of things you like about Taiwan. Depends on the person, but educate yourself, stop talking, start listening, and always keep your eyes open.

I don't think every teacher is going to have exactly the same experience in Taiwan(or any country). I completely believe those of you who say your bosses are sneaky and cheap and whatever.
But I have had a different experience-I have been in Taiwan for a year and a half. I work for a very small school. I really like the owner and I trust her. She has always paid me on time and she usually "rounds up" the total. She gave me a huge bonus for January & has promised another(smaller) one for Feb. When I am sick she covers the class-no questions or guilt trips. It's not perfect-there are some scheduling problems & not all the students are in the right class for their ability. She also pressures me from time to time when the parents put pressure on her(more testing, move through the material quicker, etc.)
I do some work for free-I create a lot of materials(worksheets & flashcards) maintain the English bulliten board, etc. I know she can't afford to pay me for these kinds of things because the school is small. But I don't mind because if I do this stuff it makes the environment & my classes better. And she does "pay me back" in other ways-she helped me out a lot with my apartment problems, helped me to find private students, taught me how to cook some dishes & helped me find vegetarian restaraunts, took care of me when I was in the hospital, and, right now, she is babysitting my daughter.

Cram school owners of Taiwan are a lot like lawyers or used car salesmen back home. I would hate for someone to only meet salesmen in the US and then think that's what I am like just because I come from the same country. If you really think ALL Chinese people are like what you are describing then you just aren't meeting the right people.

I totally agree about the driving thing though-it's terrifying. However, I'm from California where we sometimes shoot each other for traffic violations, so, you know...

Oh, yeah, and the litter. I make a HUGE deal about littering in my classes. Whether it's an adult or kids class, they can always count on a lecture from me whenever the subject comes up. I also heckle people when I see them do it-usually out the car window(the litterer being the one in the car, not me)-but I've yet to get someone to go back and pick it up.

Yes, I live here (Taiwan). Read my user name. I also teach. I get alot of respect but, then, I earn it. It's been said to me that many foreigners become surly, greedy, lazy and develop serious attitude problems after they've been here for a while. I hope I never get that way.

I notice that some people do not want to debate their racist statements that they have made earlier in this string (I think on some level they know they can't be defended).

Still no comment on one of the central points of my last post. Is your society so much better than this one that you can criticize? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Do you really think everyone in the west is corruption-free? Do you think no one rips off others? Do you really think there are no slobs or people who live like animals in western countries? Finally, the issue of street crime. Where is it safer: a large North American city or Taipei?

Yes, these people have a different concept of honesty than westerners. I've had negative experiences (read about my experiences with a Jordan recruiter elsewhere in this forum). I experienced alot of stress and I've lost money. I empathize with others who have, and are having, problems with the different mindset of the people here. Still, there's no excuse for making broad sweeping (racist) statements about all ethnic chinese societies (as if any of us know enough about the topic to make any intelligent comments). On the other hand, I've had very positive experiences, as well. These are what I try to remember. When I think about it, for every negative experience, I can think of several positive ones. I've enjoyed the people here most of all.

There are things these people do very well. Haven't you noticed how few people here are really poor? There is a relative absence of beggars. I come from a relatively small city, yet I see fewer poor people in Taipei than back home. Their national health service is much better than in countries like the US where people go bankrupt from their hospital bills.

A final question to ponder is: how long did it take for democracy to evolve in the west? Hundreds of years, right. Taiwan has been through colonial occupation and the rule of dictator all within one person's lifetime. Democracy is a very recent development here. I think the Taiwanese have come a heck of a way in such a short time.

This is last time I will participate in this string. It's getting tired. I have better things to do with my life here in Taoyuan, TAIWAN (yes I do live here "dude") than to spend it arguing with whiney foreigners who just don't get it. I have one piece of advice though: spend less time griping here and more time out enjoying life here. You'll find you'll have less to complain about.

quote="TaoyuanSteve"]Please grow up? Firstly, I'm not spewing racist garbage in a forum that is supposed to be for discussing your job as an English teacher. Find another forum, preferably David Duke's to spread your crap about your perceived inferiority of Chinese societies.

You are, actually. Secondly, grow up. What I said was not racist. It could be labled ETHNOCENTRIC, but since you've probably been in Taiwan for a month, we'll overlook your covering up, backtracking, or ignoring the very real points I've made.

Quote:

If you don't think what you say is offensive garbage, then print off a copy and show it to your Taiwanese employer. If you have any teeth left (let alone a job) when s/he finishes reading it, then I guess what you say is ok.

You do LIKE to Kow Tow to your boss, don't you? This makes it very clear you've been here what - one week?

Quote:

A little bit of knowledge is always a dangerous thing. Do you really think that your relatively short amount of time spent in Asia, along with (maybe) a few books read, makes you some kind of expert on Chinese society? In order to have an informed opinion, you would have to have completed an advanced degree in Asian studies or politics as well as having spent a signifigant amount of time (in a role other than that of English teacher) observing Chinese governments up close. I don't think you've done either.

And you have? Again, PLEASE grow up. I actually have two degrees, thank you very much: Asian Studies with a concentration on China, and a degree in Film. I speak Mandarin Chinese and grew up speaking Cantonese. I've taught in Korea, Japan, and Taiwan (been here a few years too). Please entertain us with your qualifications?

What dismisses my work as a (damn fine) English teacher and makes any other job a qualification for an "informed" opinion? Please tell, Mr. Arrogant.

Quote:

Do you really think your home society is so much better? Take a really close look. There are alot of things the Taiwanese do well. Go to a guetto in a western city if you want to see people living like animals. And where you feel safer at night? The streets of Taipei or the streets of a similarly sized North American city (be honest).

Plase tell us about "Ghetto" life. Name some "ghettos' youv'e been to. Please. Prove me wrong. I see countless homeless people wandering around Taipei, Hsinchu and Taichung. I see people collecting garbage to make ends meet while fat pigs like you sleep, thinking you are making a difference. I see Taiwanese lie, cheat and steal to make as much money while they can because their government has NEVER provided social security for them. Ask someone who can't afford counselling what happens to them when they go to look for work and the insurance company tells their boss they've been using their "jaing bao" card for emotional therapy. Tell me about the great social welfare system here. I doubt you know much of what you are talking about, do you?

Taiwanese society does little well. What it "does well" it certianly didn't create. It's a nation of copying. Ask any of your adult students that. They'll agree.

You either be dumb, Taiwanese, or new to the island, because you're so sorely mistaken about things. Check back in when you've been here more than a month.

The strum and drang of the broken record of pedestrian rebuttals you offer up tell me more about you than anything else. By the way, this has EVERYTHING to do with teaching here. Maybe you should take your rebel rousing, incindiary posts to a different forum. Disagree: fine, but do not insult me. You do seem to start up trouble on this thread.

Quote:

The people who are writing some of the crap in this string don't deserve a tenth of the respect that is probably showered on them by their Taiwanese employers. They don't deserve their too high salaries and they don't deserve the comfortable lifestyle the people of Taiwan have given to them. If you don't like it here, you can always... And the sooner the better!

Respect? Are you on drugs? This is not a hell-on-earth like South Korea but I've yet to meet an employer I can trust when it comes to being up front with its teachers on changes in curriculum. How DARE you criticize my teaching skills? I've been in this busienss a LOT longer than you, kiddo, and I think it's proven in how I address issues and don't jump to accuastions when I disagree with someone. You have NEWBIE written all over your posts on this thread. When youv'e been around the block and have chalked up the miles I have, then you can start to DISCUSS (Note: not attack) whatever issues you perceive me as having.

I hope you teach better than you liable, because I read a lot of mud slinging and accusations but little to refutiate (intelligently and with as much detail and thought that was put into my EXPERIENCE-based) my points.

If you don't think what you say is offensive garbage, then print off a copy and show it to your Taiwanese employer. If you have any teeth left (let alone a job) when s/he finishes reading it, then I guess what you say is ok.

Since you see it fit to attack the quality of teaching and how employers should treat me - without you even KNOWING me - let's reference your post about the acceptability of dating students - in this forum. Print that out and show your oh-so-wonderful employer and ask them what they think.