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Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza (Read 524510 times)

I took your advice and made the next batch as two 12" pizzas, made sure they slid on the peel at every stage, and they were so good, if my stomach was big enough, I could have eaten 10 of them !!!

I did use some of the Grande East Coast blend that I had frozen since my last "debacle," and it did perform & taste just fine. I like to use my FoodSaver vacuum, and for things like flour, shredded cheese, etc., I either use the old 6-8 Quart polycarbonite plastic FoodSaver (Talia) containers, or just use 1 or 2 qt. Ball widemouth jars and the Foodsaver widemouth attachment to get a nice vacuum seal...so maybe that helped preserve the flavor.

My kitchen oven has a max measured heat of 500°F, so I decided in the interim, to splurge on Willard's 2Stone grill for my 36,000 BTU Weber Spirit E-310 gas grill. I measured a 710°F temp after 15-20 mins, just off the stone using my Fluke 179 DMM temp probe. Lucky for me it measures up to 750°F (400°C). It was very well cooked in about 5-6 mins; some charring for character at about 7 mins.

with hand mixing. It was a delicious pizza and came out really well once I got the correct flower. But it was a little overly crispy. It didn't burn, but it didn't bend like most NY pizza I've seen. Is this due to the fact that it is only 12''? (the size of my pizza stone, so can't get around that) or are there any techniques to make it a bit chewier instead of crisp on the bottom? Thanks!

I've been following this great forum for about a year now, learning and focusing mainly on the Pizzarium thread.I think the pizza resulting from that kind of workflow has become my abnsolute favourite but recently I've started thinking "ok you've been baking this stuff like crazy for a year now, let's try something new!".The second pizza type which caught my interest was the NY style, which seemed viable for my electric oven.So after reading up a bit, yesterday I've decided to give this pizza style a try and I wanted to share the results with you.I have to admit that I was quite worried because I'm used to a strong rising with the usual pizza I make and this dough hadn't risen a lot at all, so I thought it was going to the trash but luckily it was not the case. Anyway since I didn't want to waste any ingredients I topped it very lightly with some basic tomato sauce and some fresh caciotta, adding some capers and anchovies once out of the oven.I would have liked it more browned but maybe it's because I don't have a pizza stone. Or should I cook it more (I cooked it for 10 minutes at 480F).For a first try I think it was quite good actually! Very different from my usual pies, more pizza-like (less bready).

The dough was a little too much elastic (while spreading it out), any suggestion about how to counter that?

My plan of attack to improve upon my Mexican all-purpose Lehmann NY style dough was fourfold. I would use a basic Lehmann dough recipe (in this case, for a 12-inch test pizza) but (1) I would use all-purpose flour (Mexican), (2) a lower hydration level, (3) vital wheat gluten, and (4) dried dairy whey. I have written before on using vital wheat gluten to increase the protein content of bread flour, and I have written before on using dairy whey to improve the coloration of crusts based on using Italian 00 flours, which tend naturally to be quite light in color. But, until the most recent experiment, I had not before used either vital wheat gluten or dairy whey with all-purpose flour in a Lehmann dough recipe. I will hasten to point out that neither is original with me. Both vital wheat gluten and dairy whey are used from time to time by professional pizza operators to achieve the unique qualities offered by these ingredients. The finished crust will not absolutely mimic one based on using a high-gluten flour, but the crust will be denser, chewier and crunchier than a crust based only on all-purpose flour and with a more pronounced degree of coloration. Both vital wheat gluten and dried dairy whey are relatively inexpensive ingredients and fairly widely available (I found both at Whole Foods).

The recipe I created to perform the most recent experiment was as follows (together with baker’s percents):

It will be noted that the above formulation does not reflect the use of vital wheat gluten. For those who are interested in these sorts of things, in order to make the all-purpose flour behave more like high-gluten flour from a protein standpoint (once enhanced with the vital wheat gluten), it is necessary to first determine the difference in protein content between the two flours. Using 14.2% as the benchmark for the high-gluten flour (the protein level of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour), I subtracted the protein content of the all-purpose flour, 11.5%, from 14.2%. This yielded a difference of 2.7%. Each 1% of vital wheat gluten, by weight of flour, added to the all-purpose flour increases the protein content by 0.6%. In our case, the percent of vital wheat gluten that is required to be added to the all-purpose flour is equal to 2.7 divided by 0.6 (4.5%) times the weight of flour in the above recipe (7.15 oz.), or about 0.32 oz. Using the conversion data on the package of vital wheat gluten, this translates to a bit more than 1 tablespoon of vital wheat gluten. Because the vital wheat gluten is dry, it is also necessary to compensate for this by increasing the amount of water in the recipe by 1.5 times the weight of the vital wheat gluten added. This is about 1 tablespoon. For all intents and purposes, it will be sufficient to just add about a tablespoon or more of vital wheat gluten for a 12-inch size pizza and increase it proportionately for larger sizes. Likewise with the dairy whey. Absolute precision is not necessary. What is especially nice for me is that the vital wheat gluten and dairy whey are lightweight and only small amounts are necessary. This means I can easily bring these ingredients with me to Mexico on future trips.

The dough was prepared in a straightforward manner. The salt was dissolved in the water (at about 74 degrees F), and the flour, yeast, vital wheat gluten and dairy whey were combined and gradually added to the water/salt mixture and mixed at speed 1 of my KitchenAid mixer, for about 2 minutes. The oil was then added and kneaded into the dough, and the kneading continued for about another 6-7 minutes at speed 2. After about 30 seconds of final hand kneading and shaping, the finished dough ball was coated lightly with oil and placed in the refrigerator in a covered container. The finished dough weight was 12.40 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 80 degrees F. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 26 hours, following which it was brought to room temperature for about 2 hours in preparation for shaping. The dough handled extremely well, with a nice balance between extensibility (stretchiness) and elasticity (springback). I attribute the good handing qualities of the dough to the addition of the dairy whey. This is a quality I previously noted and reported on when I used dairy whey in experiments with the Italian Caputo 00 flour.

Once the dough was stretched out to 12 inches, it was placed on a 12-inch pizza screen and dressed in a standard pepperoni style. The pizza was baked on the lowest oven rack position of the oven, which had been preheated for about 10 minutes at 500-550 degrees F. No pizza stone was used at all. The total bake time was about 8 minutes. The photos below show the finished product.

The pizza was very good, and one that, after many prior unsuccessful attempts, am prepared to recommend to those who wish to try out a Lehmann dough recipe but do not have access to high-gluten flour. The crust was chewy, crunchy, yet it was light in texture with a nice crumb structure with holes of random sizes. The crust was also considerably darker than those I made in Mexico. There’s no doubt in my mind that the vital wheat gluten and the dairy whey were responsible for the improvements. I don’t want to suggest that the results will be indistinguishable from a crust made with high-gluten flour. What I am prepared to say is that the pizza will be considerably better than one using only all-purpose flour—in just about all respects--to the point where many may not notice the difference. I also hope that fellow member jeancarlo, who recently opened a pizzeria in El Grullo, Mexico will read this post and test out the above recipe (if he can locate supplies of vital wheat gluten and dairy whey) to see if it is suitable for Mexicans craving a NY style pizza.

I made two pies from the dough recipe Peter created back on page 2 reply 31 of this thread. Fantastic!

My only dough ingredient substitution was the flour. I used the Smart & Final store brand of high gluten flour LaRomanella. I'm sure it would be even better with a good flour like KASL or similar high gluten. I think I just changed my mind about NY Style tonight...or should I say Peter and Tom Lehman changed my mind?

Today I made another pizza based on Tom L.'s New York style dough recipe, but with three major departures from my prior experiments with the recipe. Before getting to the changes, I will first mention that I "designed" the dough to produce a 14-inch pizza. The ingredients and percentages for making the dough were exactly as I detailed in the example I gave in the previous post. For recapitulation purposes, the recipe I followed was as follows:

The first departure I made from my prior efforts was to use the Giusto High Performer flour, a high-protein flour with about 14% protein + or - 0.05% (according to the spec sheet). I had intended to use the KA Sir Lancelot flour but the decision to use the Giusto flour was made for me when I discovered that I had just about run out of the KASL.

The second departure from my prior efforts was to use an autolyse. Technically, an autolyse is a period of rest for a dough that is made by combining flour, water and yeast (if the rest period is short)--and no salt. The salt is left out because it is hygroscopic (it absorbs water) and interferes with the process of hydration (absorption of water) by the starch and gluten in the flour and also impairs action of the yeast, as is well known. The net effect is that during the autolyse the dough has a chance to recover from the stress of the initial kneading, making the dough easier to handle and shape and resulting in a more porous interior. It also cuts down on the mixing times and, consequently, minimizes oxidation of the dough, which has the effect of mixing out color and flavor (according to Peter Reinhart, it destroys vitamins such as beta carotene.) The use of autolyse is an old baker's trick and is not as common with pizza dough as it is with bread dough, but I have used it many times before, and I note that others on this forum, including Giotto, have also used it before or a variation of it. (Peter Reinhart also uses a variation in his NY style pizza dough recipe.)

The third departure was to use a food processor for all the mixing and kneading, using a 14-cup Cuisinart processor fitted with a plastic blade. One of the problems with kneading a small amount of dough in a stand mixer is that it is difficult to get the mixer to do a thorough job of kneading without stopping the machine from time to time to reorient the dough relative to the paddle or dough hook or to do some hand kneading to expedite the kneading process. The food processor does not have this problem. However, the food processor has the problem of contributing considerably more frictional heat to the dough than a stand mixer--as much as 30 degrees F as compared with about 3-5 degrees F for a home stand mixer operated at low to medium speed. In my case, this meant having to use cold water to compensate for the fricitional heat of the food processor to achieve a finished dough temperature of aroung 80-85 degrees F as called for in Tom L.'s recipe. Based on the temperatures that prevailed at my place today, this meant having to use a water temperature of 46 degrees F.

To prepare the dough in the food processor, I first combined the flour and IDY in the bowl of the processor. Using the pulse feature, I then added the water to the bowl of the processor and pulsed the machine until all of the flour had been taken up by the dough. I then covered the bowl for 10 minutes, as an autolyse. After the 10 minutes had passed, I examined the dough and took its temperature. The dough was very soft and malleable and had a temperature of about 78 degrees F. I then added the oil and kneaded that into the dough, again using the pulse feature. This was followed by adding the salt and pulsing that into the dough also. This was followed by running the machine at full speed ("on") for about 20 seconds. Although I didn't perform a windowpane test, the dough was smooth and silky with no tears on the outer skin. The finished dough temperature was 83 degrees F. So, as you can see, it doesn't take much to run up the dough temperature in a food processor, even when the plastic blade is used. It takes far less than a minute. But, so long as you can minimize buildup of heat in the dough, as by using the pulse feature as much as possible, you will get a dough that is as good as, if not better, than what you will get in a stand mixer for the same amount of dough.

Once the dough was prepared, I lightly coated it with olive oil, put it into a metal cookie tin with the cover on loosely (in order to allow the dough to dry out a bit), and placed the tin in the refrigeraror. An hour later, I removed the dough from the tin (its temperature had dropped from 83 degrees F to 64 degrees F by this time), placed the dough within a plastic bread bag and returned it to the cookie tin. I tightly secured the cover to the tin, and placed the tin back into the refrigerator. Exactly 24 hours later, I removed the dough from the refrigerator (the dough was at a temperature of 56 degrees F), and brought it out to room temperature in preparation for shaping, dressing and baking. About 1 1/2 hours later, I started to shape the dough. It was softer and less dense than the dough I have been making with the KASL flour, but it was equally extensible and handled easily. I shaped it into a 14-inch round on a peel, dressed it, and baked it for about 7 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated for 1 hour at 500-550 degrees F.

Having tired of pepperoni pizzas, I dressed today's pizza with a mixture of 6-in-1 and San Marzano tomatoes, sliced mushrooms sauteed in butter, pre-cooked sweet Italian sausage (removed from its casing), sweet diced red peppers, shredded Fontina cheese, provolone cheese, fresh oregano, dried sage, a small amount of fresh rosemary, and olive oil. The crust of the finished pizza was properly browned and exemplary of the classical NY style pizza. It was softer, however, than the crusts made using the KASL and lacking an autolyse. Whether the differences were attributable to the autolyse or the different flour will have to await another day when I have had a chance to repeat the recipe again with the KASL flour I normally use. But I couldn't complain about today's pizza. With a glass of red wine, it hit the spot. The photo below, and in the next post, depict today's pizza.

Question for Peter...Why is smooth, no tears in the dough texture better? Does mixing longer make for a smoother dough? I did have tears in the above effort and it made a great crust. But I did roll it out.

Question for Peter...Why is smooth, no tears in the dough texture better? Does mixing longer make for a smoother dough? I did have tears in the above effort and it made a great crust. But I did roll it out.

Chuck,

You shouldn't have had to roll out the dough. By any chance, did you re-knead, re-ball or otherwise rework the dough ball prior to trying to open it up to form a skin? If so, that would have caused the dough ball to become elastic and hard to open. Sometime letting the dough ball or partially opened skin rest can solve that problem but it can take hours sometimes for that to happen and, in some cases, the dough ball or skin never completely regains its original form.

While the dough ball coming out of the mixer doesn't have to be absolutely smooth (for a dough that is to be cold fermented, a cottage cheese like surface is normally acceptable) but you don't want the skin to have tears or rips or holes, or even thins spots, since they can cause sauce and cheese to migrate to the damaged areas and result in the skin or dressed pizza sticking to the peel, or to a pizza screen or disk if used, or even to the baking surface, such as a pizza stone. It is possible to both underknead or overknead dough and, in both cases, you can end up with rips or tears in the skin when opening the dough ball. Ideally, you want the dough to be slightly underkneaded if it is to be cold fermented. If you did not rework the dough ball prior to opening it up to form the skin, the dough ball may have not have fermented long enough. Also, while there are exceptions, you normally don't want to try to open a dough ball that is cold right out of the refrigerator. The dough ball should temper for about an hour and a half at room temperature before using to make a pizza.

I think I may not have mixed as long as you did. Would under mixing (kneading) make for tears in the dough ball surface? I noticed this right away when moving the dough from the Kitchen Aid stand mixer to a bowl. I couldn't form a ball that didn't have a tear look in the surface.

Is it possible that under kneading allowed me to get a nice airy crust even though I rolled it?

Here's the one the kids made. Not pretty, but it was a hit and you can see the big bubbles that formed during the bake. This particular ball of dough got handled much more than I'm sure is ideal. First I tried to hand knead it out, then my wife and the kids took a try at it, then it got re-balled and rolled out by the kids. After all that it still was light and airy as you can see in the picture.

I think I may not have mixed as long as you did. Would under mixing (kneading) make for tears in the dough ball surface? I noticed this right away when moving the dough from the Kitchen Aid stand mixer to a bowl. I couldn't form a ball that didn't have a tear look in the surface.

Is it possible that under kneading allowed me to get a nice airy crust even though I rolled it?

Chuck,

I used a food processor, which usually does a better job than a stand mixer for small amounts of dough. I didn't think to ask if you used the weight measurements or the volume measurements for the flour and water. If you used volume measurements, it is possible that the hydration wasn't quite right, and the KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook (if that is what you have) perhaps couldn't achieve the desired end results under those circumstances. But if you ended up with slight underkneading, that and the relatively high hydration would help explain the open and airy crumb.

The problems you experienced should disappear with practice and experience, and especially if you use a decent digital scale to weigh the heavier ingredients like the flour and water. You can use the volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients. For better accuracy, you might also want to become familiar with the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. That tool will make life a lot easier for you once you learn how to use it.

Peter,Yes, I used a good quality digital baking scale for the flour and water measurements. The salt and oil were volume measured.

I was a little surprised by the seemingly large amount of salt during the mixing and it was evident to the feel in the hand forming of the ball prior to ferment. But the crust was not overly salty. I did go with nearly the upper end of the salt content.

As to quantity of dough, I doubled the recipe you posted to make two pies. I can see what you mean about small quantities of dough in the stand mixer. Even the doubled recipe was relatively small.

I'm definitely trying this recipe again and try to improve it. But it was excellent even with my beginner skills.

Would under mixing (kneading) make for tears in the dough ball surface? I noticed this right away when moving the dough from the Kitchen Aid stand mixer to a bowl. I couldn't form a ball that didn't have a tear look in the surface.

If I'm reading this correctly, you didn't allow the dough to rest before you tried to ball it? Give the dough 10 minutes to rest after kneading, and then try to ball it. I have a feeling you'll be quite surprised.

I made another couple batches of dough tonight. This time, I mixed it much more thoroughly. It definitely came out smoother and without tears in the surface.

The first batch was a doubled recipe to make two 14" pies vs Peter's quantities, following the ingredients he specified except that I used a high gluten Smart & Final store brand flour "LaRomanella" which the bag info would calculate to a 13.33%. Water temp was 100F. Finished dough temp was 85F

The second batch was made the same as the first except that I used Firestone DBA beer instead of water. I zapped the beer to get the temp to around 95F. Finished dough temp was 87F.

I'm fermenting at around mid 50F's by using a couple cold packs in an ice chest.

so i tried the dough on page 3 in my bread machine( let it run for 15 minutes and used a slightly colder water). I normally make pizza doughs, but this one came it really hard. It feels like there is not enough water. I put it in the fridge last night and checking it in the morning, it hasn't changed much.

When you guys are making this dough, would you say that it is a much stiffer dough? I used Gold Medal better for bread flour too. This is my first time trying to make a NY style dough. Normally the dough's i make end up poofing and its really soft and airy.

Also, one last thing, can anyone post pictures of their dough ball right after mixing and maybe after 24 hours in the fridge? I'd like to compare. Even better would be a quick you tub video showing the dough after mixing and maybe pressing a thumb into it to see the texture.

Since you are new to the NY style, you might want to read the series of posts starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 . That thread discusses a NY style dough made in a stand mixer but you will be able to see photos of what a typical dough ball looks like at different stages. As you can see from the photos, the dough should not be stiff. However, I might have a better idea as to what happened in your case once you tell me how you measured out the flour and water.

I might add that it is fairly common not to see much of a rise in the Lehmann NY style dough after a day of cold fermentation. Often the dough rises but is not evident to the naked eye. The reason for the slow rise is due mainly to the small amount of yeast used. But once the dough ball is removed from the refrigerator and allowed to temper at room temperature for about 1 1/2-2 hours, you should start to see the dough noticeably increase in volume.

Since you are new to the NY style, you might want to read the series of posts starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 . That thread discusses a NY style dough made in a stand mixer but you will be able to see photos of what a typical dough ball looks like at different stages. As you can see from the photos, the dough should not be stiff. However, I might have a better idea as to what happened in your case once you tell me how you measured out the flour and water.

I might add that it is fairly common not to see much of a rise in the Lehmann NY style dough after a day of cold fermentation. Often the dough rises but is not evident to the naked eye. The reason for the slow rise is due mainly to the small amount of yeast used. But once the dough ball is removed from the refrigerator and allowed to temper at room temperature for about 1 1/2-2 hours, you should start to see the dough noticeably increase in volume.

Peter

hi peter!

i used the volume and not weight. I do have a scale which i may try for next time. the dough just feels so firm. I watched a few different videos and trying to figure it out. Thanks for the help. I am going home soon and it does look like it rose a little.

It is quite possible that the volume measurements were at fault, since there can be so many variations from one person to another in how they measure out things volumetrically, although in retrospect I think that I would have increased the hydration value, as I did in the the later version discussed below.

Back in 2004, when Reply 51 was posted, to help members who did not have scales, I would post volume measurements, among the most important of which were the flour and water. I would go into my kitchen and, using my scale and measuring cups and spoons, I would try to convert the weights of flour and water to volumes. This was time consuming and not one of my favorite things to do, but I did it since I wanted people to have a chance at succeeding with the recipes. Eventually, one of the forum members, November, whom I believe to be from an alien planet of higher intelligence who was somehow stranded on our planet until the mother ship would be able to return to take him back home again, gently told me that my conversions were not quite correct. Rather that arguing with him, I took his comments as though it was a reprieve by the warden while I was on death's row. He gave me an excuse not to have to go back in my kitchen to do conversions again. But rather than just dismiss the matter, November came up with a tool to do conversions. I helped him by doing literally hundreds of weighings of different brands of flours using different sizes of measuring cups, and he created the algorithm and populated the database with my measurements and some of his own. What came out of that exercise is the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. That is the tool that I would have used back in 2004 had it then been available.

The post that you might want to look at for the later version of the recipe you used is at Reply 260 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113. Whether that post will help you is hard to say, because there are so many different types and brands of bread makers, but I believe that what I discussed in Reply 260 should be more useful than what I posted in 2004. You will note that the recipe posted in Reply 260 is for an 18" pizza with a thickness factor of 0.10. Most people who are experts on the NY style would suggest a lower thickness factor, maybe around 0.075-0.08. That makes it more challenging to open up a dough ball to 18" so I will leave it to you to decide how adventurous you would like to be. However, if you choose to make a smaller pizza, I suggest that you use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to crank out all of the numbers. If you need help with this, let me know.