oragami_itto wrote:There is a difference between raising internally and raising externally, here. The t'i chin is the internal raising, the sort of floatiness that comes from the severed root, which is a prerequisite condition for the external raising, i.e. losing contact with the ground. Neither is necessarily part of t'i fang, because you can absorb and release without severing the root which would cause more of the force to go into the opponent versus moving their body.

That is your definition. Not the definition in the Thirteen Treatises. When one absorbs/neutralizes, one can uproot, attract into emptiness, join and/or alternate pushing and pulling to sever the root of the opponent.

T'i fang includes uprooting using t'i chin (uprooting strength). Translations of t'i fang in the classics includes uprooting/sever root.

Thirteen Treatises:

Benjamin P. Lo (Translator) wrote:. . . As shown here when the force comes directly from the front and without deviating to the sides or up or down, we no longer talk about turning left or right or cycling up or down as the way to yield. We talk only about receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strongattack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen, which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang.

The Tai Chi Book: Refining and Enjoying a Lifetime of Practice (1998):

The t’i fang is a method of controlling the opponent’s balance and of finetuning that control so that, on the final push, the opponent is exactly in unstableequilibrium (minimum force).

The Essence of T'ai Chi Ch'uan: The Literary Tradition (1993):

Benjamin P. Lo (Translator) wrote:T’I Fang: To uproot and discharge ones opponent. It is the culmination of all the other techniques of push hands. The opponent must be moved without distortion and both feet must leave the ground and return together.

After reviewing some texts, I’ve discovered that I was wrong about there being no compound, “fangjin.” One conspicuous occurrence is in Chen Weiming’s Taijiquan Da Wen (Answers to Questions about Taijiquan). You can find it in the Lo/Smith translation, pp. 37-38 for reference, but it leaves out some of the original wording that I find revealing. Here’s how I render it:

Q: “What is meant by tijin (lifting jin)?” A: “When adhering to the opponent’s arm, if he uses force to turn it upward, I then follow its upward motion, causing his heels to lift up. This is called tijin.”Q: “What is meant by fangjin (releasing jin)?” A: When the opponent’s heels lift up and his body becomes unstable, [i] then follow the direction of his leaning tendency (qing1 ce4) and release him (fang). Thus with but little exertion of strength (hao bu feili), he will stumble away a good distance (die chu bi yuan). This is called fangjin. In the taijiquan treatises it says, ‘Store energy (xu jin) as though drawing a bow. Issue energy (fa jin) as though releasing an arrow (fang jian).’ When the opponent has been lifted up, my jin is already stored. [I then] follow his direction, sinking soundly, loosening completely, then let him go (qu) as though releasing an arrow. Sunzi says: ‘Strategic advantage (shi) is like a drawn crossbow and timing is like releasing the trigger (fa ji).’ This is precisely the meaning.”

Chen evidently uses the word fang more or less synonymously with fa. Note that Chen clearly implies that the lifting (ti) is prerequisite to releasing (fang), hence the the term, “tifang” often used to refer to the action of breaking the opponent’s root and launching them.

As I’ve noted, I’ve never seen the compound “tifang” in any classical documents, but Li Yiyu uses the terms “ti” and “fang” separately in the the third section of his “Five Key Words,” with a similar implication of one being a prerequisite for the other. Chen Weiming, incidently, integrates some of Li’s wording from that section into his own commentary on “The Mental Elucidation of the Thirteen Postures.”

Take care,Louis

Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

marvin8 wrote:That is your definition. Not the definition in the Thirteen Treatises. When one absorbs/neutralizes, one can uproot, attract into emptiness, join and/or alternate T'i fang includes uprooting using t'i chin.

And there is the key, when performing t'i-fang one CAN involve t'i chin if you want to be polite and not hurt your partner. If you are fighting and want to damage then, then you may not want to break root, maybe you just want to break wrist. In which case t'i-fang without t'i chin at the point if contact. You can see this in Sifu Adam's video when he goes to the one timing method. Sometimes the student is uprooted, sometimes he simply falls in place.

My original question remains unanswered though.

No matter what you call it, can you do what is being demonstrated in the hwa and fa video? What experience do you have with it?

Last edited by oragami_itto on Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."-Yang Cheng Fu

charles wrote:Having read the Treatise, I watched Mr. Mizner's video two more times. The first time, I watched and listened to what he had to say. I find no fault in what he said or in his approach, particularly. He appears to have skills but I find it impossible to gauge his skill level when the partner has such ridiculous exaggerated responses. What he has shown, if working with a cooperative partner, as he is, isn't particularly difficult to do.

I don't see the responses as "exagerrated" per se. Though they are highlighted via the method. You can see him instruct the student to use good full body connection in order to make sure the body is acting as a unit, not just an isolated limb. If the limb is isolated on contact then all of the movement occurs in one of the joints, not along the whole "ground path". This quality is what makes it uprooting versus just hurting a limb. The classic way of training receiving energy is more explicit and relies less on the pusher doing it right, I admit. You may or may not be familiar with it. But yes, the partner is "giving it" to him, not resisting, not countering the neutralization, not attempting to save himself in any way.

In live non-cooperative push hands, there are two similar looking situations.

Let's say you're joined up and then the partner puts hand on the middle of your chest and pushes on the obvious centerline which they think should be an easy offbalancing.

In one, you root the incoming push and they push themselves away. Root against root, yours is stronger so you win.

The second, you catch the incoming force, route it to the ground and back, and deliver it back to them, possibly with a little or a lot of your own force added.

Point being they may look very similar externally, but there is a huge difference in the feeling inside the body.

It can occur at any point of contact, though. The training situation shown here is just, in my opinion, a way to practice with training wheels to understand and nurture the feeling.

Next then would be full combat and delivering the same jin through a block/deflect/parry or a direct blow.

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

The second repeat watching I watched the students behind him. Largely, they were not neutralizing, instead, just copying the choreography.

It's hard to get it right sometimes. They're learning. Background students are not the main focus of instructional material, generally speaking.

Thank you for your reply.

"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."-Yang Cheng Fu

amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science

No matter what you call it, can you do what is being demonstrated in the hwa and fa video? What experience do you have with it?

I've only been pushed mysteriously. Do not know how to hwa then fa or hwa/fa simultaneously.

If anyone here can do that, please teach it to me.

amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science

Bao wrote:Yeah, I’ve watched it. He used speed and a whole lot of strength and shoveling. But I am not an expert on shoveling wrestling, so maybe some one else with more experience on competition push hands and similar might be better to judge the quality of the player.

The first correction that my teacher made on me when we met is "stop pushing people away, they will just come back harder". End it right there if possible.The second is to get out of push hand mode and learn how to apply.The third is to throw away everything that isn't a valid understanding. They will only mislead and confuse you as they are mostly in conflict with the original.Spend the money and learn the correct applications, Not third party moves,understandings or opinions.Does what I just wrote fit these video's? What if every damn thing is wrong and only a few people even know it?

Last edited by willie on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

After taking the time to read through this I concede that treatise seven is very poorly worded.

marvin8 wrote:

marvin8 wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:There is a difference between raising internally and raising externally, here. The t'i chin is the internal raising, the sort of floatiness that comes from the severed root, which is a prerequisite condition for the external raising, i.e. losing contact with the ground. Neither is necessarily part of t'i fang, because you can absorb and release without severing the root which would cause more of the force to go into the opponent versus moving their body.

That is your definition. Not the definition in the Thirteen Treatises. When one absorbs/neutralizes, one can uproot, attract into emptiness, join and/or alternate pushing and pulling to sever the root of the opponent.

T'i fang includes uprooting using t'i chin (uprooting strength). Translations of t'i fang in the classics includes uprooting/sever root.

Thirteen Treatises:

Benjamin P. Lo (Translator) wrote:. . . As shown here when the force comes directly from the front and without deviating to the sides or up or down, we no longer talk about turning left or right or cycling up or down as the way to yield. We talk only about receiving the attack. In T' ai Chi Ch'uan, we use the opponent's strongattack against him - which is what the Book oj Changes describes as K'an, the trigram of "the Abyss" and the hexagram of danger. This is the primary reason to use the term "T'ai Chi" to name this martial art, for it means to cause the attacking force to dissolve in emptiness. When the opponent realizes that he has failed, his only option is to withdraw and try to escape. During the opponent's withdrawal of his attacking force, my abdomen, which has absorbed and stored the force of his attack, uses this power to attack his retreat. This response is what the Classics refer to as t'i-fang.

The Tai Chi Book: Refining and Enjoying a Lifetime of Practice (1998):

The t’i fang is a method of controlling the opponent’s balance and of finetuning that control so that, on the final push, the opponent is exactly in unstableequilibrium (minimum force).

The Essence of T'ai Chi Ch'uan: The Literary Tradition (1993):

Benjamin P. Lo (Translator) wrote:T’I Fang: To uproot and discharge ones opponent. It is the culmination of all the other techniques of push hands. The opponent must be moved without distortion and both feet must leave the ground and return together.

After reviewing some texts, I’ve discovered that I was wrong about there being no compound, “fangjin.” One conspicuous occurrence is in Chen Weiming’s Taijiquan Da Wen (Answers to Questions about Taijiquan). You can find it in the Lo/Smith translation, pp. 37-38 for reference, but it leaves out some of the original wording that I find revealing. Here’s how I render it:

Q: “What is meant by tijin (lifting jin)?” A: “When adhering to the opponent’s arm, if he uses force to turn it upward, I then follow its upward motion, causing his heels to lift up. This is called tijin.”Q: “What is meant by fangjin (releasing jin)?” A: When the opponent’s heels lift up and his body becomes unstable, [i] then follow the direction of his leaning tendency (qing1 ce4) and release him (fang). Thus with but little exertion of strength (hao bu feili), he will stumble away a good distance (die chu bi yuan). This is called fangjin. In the taijiquan treatises it says, ‘Store energy (xu jin) as though drawing a bow. Issue energy (fa jin) as though releasing an arrow (fang jian).’ When the opponent has been lifted up, my jin is already stored. [I then] follow his direction, sinking soundly, loosening completely, then let him go (qu) as though releasing an arrow. Sunzi says: ‘Strategic advantage (shi) is like a drawn crossbow and timing is like releasing the trigger (fa ji).’ This is precisely the meaning.”

Chen evidently uses the word fang more or less synonymously with fa. Note that Chen clearly implies that the lifting (ti) is prerequisite to releasing (fang), hence the the term, “tifang” often used to refer to the action of breaking the opponent’s root and launching them.

As I’ve noted, I’ve never seen the compound “tifang” in any classical documents, but Li Yiyu uses the terms “ti” and “fang” separately in the the third section of his “Five Key Words,” with a similar implication of one being a prerequisite for the other. Chen Weiming, incidently, integrates some of Li’s wording from that section into his own commentary on “The Mental Elucidation of the Thirteen Postures.”

Take care,Louis

"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."-Yang Cheng Fu

oragami_itto wrote:After taking the time to read through this I concede that treatise seven is very poorly worded.

I agree.

oragami_itto wrote:And there is the key, when performing t'i-fang one CAN involve t'i chin if you want to be polite and not hurt your partner. . . . In which case t'i-fang without t'i chin at the point if contact. You can see this in Sifu Adam's video when he goes to the one timing method. Sometimes the student is uprooted, sometimes he simply falls in place.

Stuart Alve Olson wrote:Rising Energy T’i Jin “Rising is referred to as, rising to draw up. In T’ai Chi Ch’uan this energy has one purpose, to adhere. You use your energy to draw up an opponent in order to uproot him, which causes him to lean off his center of balance. He stumbles over and his posture is destroyed. This is certainly easier if I originally make myself heavy and then rise up and become light. It will be quite difficult on the other hand if I am incapable of applying this skillful method. This skillful method is to take advantage of an opponent during the time he is unawares. Move forward with advance step and using the energy of the waist and legs, rise upward and adhere. This will cause the opponent to be caught unawares, to be defective, and to lean off his center of balance.”

Yang Chengfu, Recorded by Chen Weiming, translation by Lee Fife wrote:One of the results of failing to sink the shoulders and drop the elbows is the inability to fang (discharge) the opponent. Fang is a skill closely related to fajin or releasing j in (power). Fajin describes a skill that is present in many arts, both internal and external. Per personal instruction, taijiquan’s fajin ideally contains the skill of t i-fang, lifting and releasing, rather than simply being a sudden issuing of power. The opponent is lifted, losing connection with ground and the opponent’s own power, and then easily “released” as you issue your own power. As a result, the opponent is either thrown far or receives the release directly into his body.

In the Taijiquan Classics, the Mental Elucidation of the Thirteen Postures describes therelationship between fajin and fang saying發勁如放箭Fajin is like releasing ( fang) an arrow

Aqui wrote:Alright,with all the speculation about Adam Mizner's material I thought I post a video showing Adam's top student Andy Mack doing free Push Hands with German Judoka Herbert Arndt.

Now I know that people will start with "Herbert Arndt has no skill..." but Herbert Arndt is a German National Judo Champion, European Judo Champion and won third place in the Judo World Championship starting in the 100+ kg division.

I am really curious how you guys here rate Andy's performance!!!

Best Aqui

While it's always nice to see a Taiji practitioner training with someone outside of their own school, I personally don't think this particular match accomplished much in terms of proving the effectiveness of his art against others. In fact, I'd say it wasn't fair at all in terms of the format of the exchange. All we are seeing here is a Judo guy being dragged way outside of his comfort zone by going against a Taiji guy under free-step PH rules. (Just imagine what it'd be like if the Taiji guy had to put on a Judo jacket and grapple with the Judo guy under Judo rules!)

I'd be much more interested in seeing what happens when grabbing as well as attacking the lower body (e.g., sweeps, trips, takedowns) are allowed.

Last edited by C.J.W. on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Aqui wrote:Alright,with all the speculation about Adam Mizner's material I thought I post a video showing Adam's top student Andy Mack doing free Push Hands with German Judoka Herbert Arndt.

Now I know that people will start with "Herbert Arndt has no skill..." but Herbert Arndt is a German National Judo Champion, European Judo Champion and won third place in the Judo World Championship starting in the 100+ kg division.

I am really curious how you guys here rate Andy's performance!!!

Best Aqui

While it's always nice to see a Taiji practitioner training with someone outside of their own school, I personally don't think this particular match accomplished much in terms of proving the effectiveness of his art against others. In fact, I'd say it wasn't fair at all in terms of the format of the exchange. All we are seeing here is a Judo guy being dragged way outside of his comfort zone by going against a Taiji guy under free-step PH rules. (Just imagine what it'd be like if the Taiji guy had to put on a Judo jacket and grapple with the Judo guy under Judo rules!)

I'd be much more interested in seeing what happens when grabbing and attacking the lower body are allowed.

IJF banned all leg grabbing techniques in 2013.

Grappler KingdomPublished on Feb 6, 2018

2013 was the year when all leg grabbing techniques were banned. IJF wanted to make Judo more attractive, but in this change of rules a lot of beautiful techniques were lost. Take a look at compilation of spectacular techniques that are possibly lost form competitive Judo forever: