As you all know Air France is removing the 747 aircraft from its fleet, they were previously removing those from passenger service and replacing them with A380 and 77W equipment, but as discussed on a separate topic AF is considering dismantling its cargo activity, so its looks like soon Air France will have no more 747 at all.
It is obvious that the 747 days at Air France (I'm not talking about KLM, just AF) are numbered. Unless of course they order the 747-8, but I don't think they will.
Anyone at Air France knows when the last 747 will be retired?
When? And on what route?
FLYSSC must know.

As I understand it, the delays in the A380 deliveries forced AF to keep the 747-400s in the fleet through 2014 and they have undergone - or will undergo - cabin refurbishment to keep them "fresh" until then.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):As I understand it, the delays in the A380 deliveries forced AF to keep the 747-400s in the fleet through 2014 and they have undergone - or will undergo - cabin refurbishment to keep them "fresh" until then.

Contrarily to what many people think on this forum, AF is not replacing its 744 by A380 but by 77W with J, W (premium voyageur) and "high density" Y. So I don't think there is any impact of A380 delays on 744 retirement. A380 has 1st class and too much J seats for the current 744 routes (AF744 has no 1st class and about 40 J seats). Regarding cabin refurbishment, I would be very surprised if they invest in a soon-to-be-retired fleet but I may be wrong of course.

Quoting American 767 (Thread starter):It is obvious that the 747 days at Air France (I'm not talking about KLM, just AF) are numbered.

I'm afraid you're right. Even if the jumbo is now far from being the best A/C in AF fleet, I still enjoy the unique experience to fly J in the front section of the lower deck (the nose) or Y on the upper deck. I'll miss this a lot

Quoting goldorak (Reply 2):Contrarily to what many people think on this forum, AF is not replacing its 744 by A380 but by 77W with J, W (premium voyageur) and "high density" Y. So I don't think there is any impact of A380 delays on 744 retirement.

Yes, it is true that AF's remaining 747-400 fleet just has Affaires and Voyageur and AF is taking delivery of 777-300ERs with Affaires, Alizé and Voyageur. However, I seem to recall reading in a thread on this forum that AF was keeping their 744s longer than planned due to late deliveries of A388s.

I don't know how AF is allocating their 77W fleets between long-haul (with F) and regional (without), but perhaps they had to pull forward deliveries of their long-haul 77Ws to make up for the delays in the A388, meaning that deliveries of the regional 77Ws tasked to replace the 744s were pushed back?

It will be a sad day for me when the passenger AF 747s do retire. I remember them fondly when they were a staple at ORD back in the 90s. I was due to fly ORD-CDG back in 98 for the World Cup but unfortunately, the air strike that year prevented that. Nonetheless, I was able to fly on it on the return leg and am glad I got a chance to while she was still in the fleet.

Where are AF sending their 744s nowadays? The only US cities I know are JFK, BOS, and LAX. I see there are only 12 744s left in service; how many did AF operate at their peak?

I was surprised that the switch has not happened yet, but it also has to do with internal factors, primarily unions.

At least AF does not have to fight the 3 vs. 2 in the cockpit the way they did back in the 90s, but there is the matter of retraining and retiring. From the 744, you could go to Airbus if you wanted, or stay with a Boeing. Depending on crew projections/hires and availability, etc.. this can have an impact. Don't laugh. AF-KLM may be a single airline ostensibly, but AF has so-called "social charges" that also affect when to hire new crew and offer early retirement to some captains because it cost a whole lot more. (DLH is also fighting that one regularly with its pilot union).

Two cents on the last flight: It will be advertised, but give it another 5 years, I would say. These birds may be less efficient, but when you stuff'em to go to Martinique (500+ all Y), they bring home enough bacon in one flight instead of a couple of full 77W.

As far as repainting a plane, while it makes sense to save money (and many on this list like to rag on AF's limited cleaning of its fleet), the painting cycle simply follows a full D-check or in some cases earlier. So if some of these planes came up for repainting, and the shops have alsready switched to the new brand, then you will have a few rare birds. 'happened with SR when they phased out their early 747s. HB-IGB was repainted following its D-check. HB-IGA never saw the "new" ('81) livery. Both left in '83 when the new -300s showed up.

AF 747 was supposed to be completely withdrawn from the fleet by 2010/2011, but with all that happened, and with the fuel prices, they will remain alive until 2013/2014.
F-GEXB, and F-GITC (IIRC), are coming back into service! (they were supposed to be the next ones leaving the fleet!)

AF is curretly operating 9 B744 PAX version.
The decision to extend for another two years the fleet of B744 was taken just a few weeks by AF.
A B744 currently in storage will even return back in service soon ...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):I don't know how AF is allocating their 77W fleets between long-haul (with F) and regional (without), but perhaps they had to pull forward deliveries of their long-haul 77Ws to make up for the delays in the A388, meaning that deliveries of the regional 77Ws tasked to replace the 744s were pushed back?

In fact the 77W you mention aren't 'regional' but high-density vs the others that are 'low-density'. Both sub-fleets fly exclusively intercontinental routes, high-density ones go for instance to RUN, PTP, HAV, YUL while high density ones are workhorses on business-oriented destinations such as SIN, HKG, JFK, IAH, NRT etc...

I think the new ones coming are supposed to be a third cabin configuration, with more J seats than the high-density ones (they only have 14 J seats), but still much less than the low-density ones (67J) and no F. At least that's how they were supposed to get configured at one point, but perhaps AF changed their plans.

For reference, i think the 744 has 40 J & 389 Y, including the Y+ seats of the upped deck.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 13):Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I don't know how AF is allocating their 77W fleets between long-haul (with F) and regional (without), but perhaps they had to pull forward deliveries of their long-haul 77Ws to make up for the delays in the A388, meaning that deliveries of the regional 77Ws tasked to replace the 744s were pushed back?

In fact the 77W you mention aren't 'regional' but high-density vs the others that are 'low-density'. Both sub-fleets fly exclusively intercontinental routes, high-density ones go for instance to RUN, PTP, HAV, YUL while high density ones are workhorses on business-oriented destinations such as SIN, HKG, JFK, IAH, NRT etc...

I think the new ones coming are supposed to be a third cabin configuration, with more J seats than the high-density ones (they only have 14 J seats), but still much less than the low-density ones (67J) and no F. At least that's how they were supposed to get configured at one point, but perhaps AF changed their plans.

At the end of this year, Air France will start again to take delivery of additional B7WW. They will receive another configuration for "regular" long haul routes but with no "First Class".They will be configured with 42J / 24W / 315Y.
The first aircraft will be used in January 2011 on the new nonstop CDG-SGN-CDG.

AF will also start to reconfigure 10 of its 25 B772ER with no "First Class". They should start to be used to MIA, SFOBKK.

"AF will also start to reconfigure 10 of its 25 B772ER with no "First Class". They should start to be used to MIA, SFOBKK."
Seems like a big drop in capacity to go from 744 service to MIA to a 772? Wouldn't a higher density 773 be better?

Quoting MIASkies (Reply 15):"AF will also start to reconfigure 10 of its 25 B772ER with no "First Class". They should start to be used to MIA, SFOBKK."
Seems like a big drop in capacity to go from 744 service to MIA to a 772? Wouldn't a higher density 773 be better?

AF will probably use a mix of B772ER / B77W to MIA or maybe add a second flight on certain days

I will miss AF's 744s, especially the upper deck Y class cabin which in my opinion is the best place to fly in Y class of any airline. I've flown Y in the AF upper deck 3 or 4 times in the past couple of years. With the private cabin, about 2 inches more seat pitch than the main deck (34 in. vs 32 in.), 2 flight attendants and 2 lavatories for 60 passengers, and AF's generally above-average Y class meal service (and free Champagne), it's better than many premium Y products. What a contrast from AF's cramped 10-abreast 777s which I will go out of my way to avoid.

[Edited 2010-06-08 15:35:44]

25 hardiwv
: AF B747 are a pain, if they stay longer on the fleet I hope AF could spend some money to upgrade them to NEV3/NEV2. Plus the B77Ws released from A380