Sunday, August 27, 2017

Holy shit, Mike Enoch went off on VD on their podcast from yesterday. I came here expecting a response. Your move, Vox.

I'll pass, thanks. Mike has a right to say whatever he thinks of me. And I'm not interested in his opinion, least of all concerning a subject I know superlatively well. I see no need to listen to his criticism much less respond to it.

RD informed us that "the TRS guys were quite unhappy that you pointed out Spencer isn't of the Right."

In their latest podcast, TDS185 (which is paywalled), they spent from 1h:27m - 1h:44m railing against you (and Cernovich), as they feel betrayed. They talk about how they respected your work, but that they believe you've turned on them since the unfortunate events in Charlottesville.

I can't help but kind of like those guys. They're funny, and they have a lot of energy and have reached a lot of people. But Mike Enoch simply refuses to accept that their cock-up in Charlottesville provided a pretext for the current wave of literal iconoclasm and grave desecration. And they really don't have a firm intellectual understanding of actual National Socialism and why it's defunct.

At the same time, they say they've accepted your advice that Nazi flags and so forth are bad optics, and must be avoided. But they don't credit you with it.

The truth is what it is. This sort of "Jenny, did you hear what Billy said about Suzy" drama is of zero interest to me. I don't know what they said. I don't care what they said. I'm not attempting to curry favor with them or with anyone.

I've never been a movement guy. I don't play particularly well with others, in part because I simply try to do what I think is right at the time. I don't worry at all about what X is going to think about my opinion of Y. I stand by my friends, not because I agree with them or I believe their ideology to be flawless, but because they are my friends. That may not be enough for you, but it's enough for me.

Also, I would point out that I have been the object of considerably more criticism than I have meted out. I'm not offering that as an excuse or a reason because it is neither; the criticism was merited regardless of the source. But I do think it suffices to dismiss the idea that I have betrayed anyone.

They fucked up. In a historical sense. they need to admit this. Life is now infinitely harder for anyone on the right. Leaders who mess up that bad need to step aside.

But Nazis never learn. They don't. Big rallies wont work for us right now. You cant control who comes or what they are going to do. But they want more. Nazi symbols are poison. But they want more.

They need to go back to doing what they did best..trolling on the internet. They accomplished more doing that than their pointless and needlessly inflammatory rallies. Remember..you need to win the culture first.

Leave the rallies to the more mainstream right, and when the leftwing lunatics attack them it will be a propaganda victory. But they wont learn. They are either 1) stupid or 2) controlled opposition. Either way they are an impediment.

"the JEWISH Jason Kessler planned the UNITE THE RIGHT "NAZI" Rally in a TRUMP hotel. How did a jew who worked for CNN, supported Occupy Wall street, Obama & Hillary in 2016 manage to convert to Nazism? Must have been around too many jew women. "

Leave the rallies to the more mainstream right, and when the leftwing lunatics attack them it will be a propaganda victory

Even when antifa attacks fellow antifa NAZIs get blamed.http://www.dailywire.com/news/20089/oops-antifa-beats-hell-out-fellow-protester-they-amanda-prestigiacomo

They are butt-hurt because Vox, a guy they look up to had the audacity to criticize them. Lest we forget - that's what the left does...follow an identity or an ideologue regardless of their actions or who they are. They demonize Trump for his p***y comments yet give Clinton a pass for literally cramming a cigar into a woman who was his subordinate...because identity. Wipe your tears, listen to the criticism and let it make you a better person.

Vox is a cuck who talks AltRight and manufactures controversy in order to shill kosher books.

Yes, of course, he's both a Nazi AND a shill for Jews. And he "manufactures controversy" by not going to Charlottesville and making an ass of himself like the swastika panties brigade. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

The altreich refuse to learn. They cock up everything they touch short of trolling which they Excell at. Being, at base, leftists they constantly make the same mistake democrats do: overreach. The second people stop spitting on them they think it means they are Alexander come again.

I stopped listening to TRS when the whole doxxing affair peaked. I had election fatigue and I saw the writing on the wall when it was revealed that Mike Enoch's wife is Jewish. Not that I particularly care one way or another, I don't think he's a plant or anything like that.

But the histrionics surrounding the Jews inhibits the TRS people from seeing that our mission is to mitigate or reverse the decline in quality among our people. If you ask these guys what to do they inevitably spiral down to "we have to raise awareness about the Jews". It's a shame, the TRS guys are witty and clever and funny, but I guess that's not enough to escape from the gravity well of White Nationalism one point oh.

If it took them this long to understand that Nazi symbols are distasteful to 99% of Americans, they've got a long way to go yet.

I think many white male gen Xers have an elevated perspective because this was the option presented to/forced upon them. In my case, early on it seemed the Boomers were crowding our space and inhibiting full entry to the career path. So we scramble and in doing so are presented with a set of challenges different from the safe middle class.

So people who adapt Nazi thinking seem to me to be people who have the LUXURY of doing this. People I respect don't go waving guns around in the air, allegorically-speaking.

I'm not sure what raising awareness (whining) about the Jews is supposed to accomplish. First of all, if Jewish clannishness is really a problem for us, merely redpilling everyone on identity politics and tribalism (the way the world works) should make it obvious and neutralize it.

But somehow finding and deporting the liberal Jews in DC and Hollywood would barely slow down the self destruction of America.

Plus, all Vox has done is start about a purge of Leftists from the "Right". Being Anti-Commie doesn't put you on the Right. It just means you hate Commies more. Everyone that isn't a Commie hates them as well. Welcome to the rest of the world!

"They fucked up. In a historical sense. they need to admit this. Life is now infinitely harder for anyone on the right. Leaders who mess up that bad need to step aside."

C'mon guys, if we just keep our heads down we can delay the inevitable. And theyll leave us alone for a while until they finish considating power, but hopefully we will be dead by then anyway.

I get it, but cant agree.

"But Nazis never learn. They don't. Big rallies wont work for us right now. You cant control who comes or what they are going to do."

Theyll never be able to control who comes so youre basically saying there will never be a good time to hold rallies.

Id agree about the nazi imagery, except the media obsessively focused on the handful of actual nazi wannabes, and in one report on al jazeera they spent the entire report showing footage from an unrelated klan rally. In other words, the media was going to show nazi/kkk images in their reports even if tbey had to take them out of context from a hollywood movie. The real right will never be permitted to assemble, with or without swastikas, without the media making the association for the viewer.

Also, dont put it past the left to send someone with a nazi flag to help the media.

Spencer and the government-infiltrated neo-Nazis helped to poison the idea of the Alt-Right for the general public. They fell straight into a trap.

Not understanding nuance and subtlety, these fools allowed their biggest and most flamboyant morons to represent the Right Wing as a whole. And now, even Christian websites are getting iced out.

Spencer and Kessler have provided just the right punctuation for the next highly aggressive phase against the Right. And now? We get to have conditions that are pretty much identical to those troubled months before the Civil War. Sure, this moment in history was coming. But it would have been nice to have more time. But that's all fucked up now, and we're in the more intense phase.

Maybe Spencer should have another neo-Nazi rally. Perhaps this time in Times Square. You know, to show our solidarity.

Spencer and the government-infiltrated neo-Nazis helped to poison the idea of the Alt-Right for the general public.

Life is now infinitely harder for anyone on the right. Leaders who mess up that bad need to step aside.

Really? The general public is still asleep. Once we get further into the Greater Depression they will wake up and make a choice for one side or the other and Nazi nitwits won't be a deciding factor one way or another. Don't start making the message "we aren't Nazi's". Ignore them.

True believers never learn. They care more about ideological purity then they do victory which makes them eat their own young so to speak and therefore they achieve nothing.

Victory is it's own mortality. If the truth and ideological purity mattered they left wouldn't have been winning damn near every round for 150 plus years. Now they are opting for ideological purity and are starting to come apart at the seems.

Sadly what passes for the right here in the West can't unite because its own fetish for abstaric purity vs seeking concrete victories

There was no reason to "unite" because it was functionally a federated empire until the 70s. The federated part rapidly went away starting in the 90s. A lot of people went most of their lives without ever really dealing with the Feds until very recently. Mind you, it also helped that the government wasn't actually trying to destroy you. That started to change a while ago, but it was fairly localized.

All I keep coming back to is the Brown shirt types feel betrayed. When it is clear what they demand be defended by others is not the free speech aspect of wearing the swastika, but the wearing of it as a marker of group identity. Thats a demand to get in line, and that's a goose stepping line most are not willing to join. It reminds me of a passive aggressive hippy chick i knew back in the 80's.

Every time I decide to give these types a fair hearing what comes across strongest is their insistence that if you are truly a Nationalist, the socialist aspect of it is inseparable from it. For how can you be a Nationalist without the State doing all it can to benefit the people of the Nation, the people being the Nation. That way lies Equality. That way lies ruin & tyranny. And that is why they are on the left, not the right

VoxThe truth is what it is. This sort of "Jenny, did you hear what Billy said about Suzy" drama is of zero interest to me. I don't know what they said. I don't care what they said. I'm not attempting to curry favor with them or with anyone.

This.Nobody understands a Sigma except another Sigma. That doesn't mean Sigmas always agree, but they do "get" each another.

"Spencer and Kessler have provided just the right punctuation for the next highly aggressive phase against the Right. And now? We get to have conditions that are pretty much identical to those troubled months before the Civil War"

It was going to happen anyway, and soon. The left wont win on an even playing field and this was started before the rally. Sure the rally gave a pretext to shutdown daily stormer anf storm front, but i assume you arent talking about them?

"Sure, this moment in history was coming. But it would have been nice to have more time"

Okay, but why? Because its scary? The longer it takes, the more the left consolidates power. I dont see how thats good for you. Avoid the scary, but perhaps easier struggle now or just out it off a few years and make it more difficult. Sounds like youre being a bit high time preference tbh.

Imo, if you guys are going to "fight" the left you need it to happen sooner rather than later. Even if its horrifying.

National socialism (which Spencer is not, ask /pol/) may or may not be right wing (whatever, it's an autistic argument to have), Spencer may or may not be right wing (he's something the left uniformly hates, anyway). But *a lot* of guys who are right wing, guys like TRS, like Spencer, and *a lot more* guys who are right wing like TRS. Alienating them is bad for morale, whatever disagreements we might have with them.

(Side note: is it me or are captchas getting increasingly bizarre and difficult? That would be an interesting way to suppress speech...)

@Laramie Hirsch: I disagree. I believe The Left will lose. The danger is that the oligarchs will 'join' The Right and help us get to a nice comfortable 1950's situation from which they can take another run at our destruction. After all, who doesn't 'Like Ike'.

If they remain stupidly attached to The Left, it will be their undoing.

C'mon guys, if we just keep our heads down we can delay the inevitable. And theyll leave us alone for a while until they finish considating power, but hopefully we will be dead by then anyway.

I get it, but cant agree.

Theyll never be able to control who comes so youre basically saying there will never be a good time to hold rallies.

Id agree about the nazi imagery, except the media obsessively focused on the handful of actual nazi wannabes, and in one report on al jazeera they spent the entire report showing footage from an unrelated klan rally. In other words, the media was going to show nazi/kkk images in their reports even if tbey had to take them out of context from a hollywood movie. The real right will never be permitted to assemble, with or without swastikas, without the media making the association for the viewer.

Also, dont put it past the left to send someone with a nazi flag to help the media.

Think in terms of insurgency. When insurgents suffer a major loss, they go to ground for a while and rebuild. Once the heat dies down, they begin operations again.

We are insurgents. We need to think like insurgents and act like insurgents.

Mass rallies held by radicals are going to bring enormous opposition at this point, and this will naturally attract extremists, brawlers and provocateurs. We dont need that. We need to be prepared to defend our own, but we dont want to needlessly provoke.

The rules of public engagement favour the left. Thier abuses will be excused Our wont. What the alt-right needs to do is hold carefully planned flashmob rallies and disruption events with a fairly small group of selected people. These events should be designed for consumption on social media. No nazi shit. No anti-jew/muslim/whatever. Those turn people off. They should emphasize the positive and try to incorporate elements of humour and pranksterism. Imagine crashing a feminist speaker and pelting her with baby carrots (I dont carrot all about your outrage!) or maybe lettuce (lettuce have free speech!). Imagine disrupting a white privilege conference with bullhorns chanting "Anti-white! Anti-White!" while writing down the license plates of the attendees.

Leave the planned rallies and outreach to the mainstream MAGA right. They can draw a bigger and better crowd of people. The alt-right needs to focus on what it does best...troll.

Also, dont put it past the left to send someone with a nazi flag to help the media.

On TRS they talked about how people were talking about the guy w/ the (brand new) flag that nobody knew, asking who he was with and saying "we should get him out of there" but right wing virtue signaling won out so no one booted him.

As someone pointed out on gab: they managed to dox an Uno's pizza employee from Vermont, kinda funny they haven't doxxed the *one* guy who actually might have been a real nazi.

But Mike Enoch simply refuses to accept that their cock-up in Charlottesville provided a pretext for the current wave of literal iconoclasm and grave desecration.

If so, that's pretty dumb, so just as well that I've never read him. You can argue that Charlottesville didn't cause any of this, that the Left was eventually going to shut down free speech and come after civilizational icons like statues, because that's what the Left does. You could argue that it's a good thing because it clarified the battle lines and triggered the Left into showing its hand. You could even argue that it will end up being a positive thing in the long run.

But if you claim the Left isn't using Charlottesville as a pretext for all this, you're lying or not paying attention. Do they think the SJWs at Google and other tech companies suddenly decided they'd like to suppress right-wingers? No, they always wanted to and were doing it in little sneaky ways, but Nazis are the pretext for charging ahead with it openly. Leftists and black groups have been complaining about those statues for decades and occasionally convincing politicians to take one down, but Nazis became the excuse to go whole-hog after them. Nazis are their justification for redefining some types of speech as violence so you can attack people for them. Nazis are their excuse for everything they're doing, based on some images from Charlotttesville.

Denying that because you don't want to change your marketing plan is stubborn and stupid.

People are being red-pilled by reality. Reality doesn't need self-appointed leaders. The Alt-Right is inevitable. Trying to sell it is with rallies counter-productive.

LES, you're correct. SJWs and AntiFa are so absurd, they are doing themselves constant damage, with both Civic nationalist types and even some full normies.

* Attacking prayer meetings as Nazis* Eating there own as AntiFa guy gets attacked as a Nazi because Polo shirt. Ha!

Both of the above have been highlighted on civic national sites, and the constant "eating their own" themes will not stop, as that is exactly where Identity Politics has to go. These are noticed by everyone.

I hope you're correct and that the Right wins. But...I see so many parallels to the two civil wars fought on this continent. If history is any kind of a teacher and predictor, then we really aren't in a good spot. But hey, I say we keep trying.

I do disagree with Vox on one thing. The whole Alt-Tech thing is great. But not having rallies and not fighting for social spaces on the internet? The whole "Just let California have it's own country" mindset? This is all retreat. It's all rubbish.

The Left has been making us eat their shit for years. They've forced their way into our social spaces for decades. Why do we keep retreating? Why place our hope in Alt-Tech? Why state "oh, rallies aren't our thing. It's just not economical"? We should be forcing the Left to look at us, and putting ourselves in their faces. We should fight to win the social space.

This was one of the earliest lessons I thought that Gamergate had taught us. I had learned about Gamergate from Vox. But this idea of giving up the social spaces, even in liberal territory...it just seems like we're quitting.

Casey wrote:On the laptop I'm using the instructions for the captchas are cut off of the screen, but I can usually complete them successfully by selecting the blocks which have a common theme.In the past, I've been able to scroll with the arrow keys when this happened.

How long do your think the independent country of California would actually survive? Once the water supply from the rest of the continent is cut off and they have to pay their own bills you'll be looking at Greece writ large without an EU to bail them out.

> I'm sure that God was also on the side of Christians who were fed to lions in ancient Rome.

And where are those Christians now? Where are those who fed them to the lions? Winning in this life isn't everything.

The Daily Shoah was a fun listen for most of 2016, but starting around Heilgate in November Enoch started constantly beefing with other right wing figures for daring to suggest that Nazi shenanigans were not helping the cause (while also whining constantly about people "punching right"). After his doxing/firing/divorce early this year he decided to go full-blown David Duke white nationalist, and now he's just a ranting, angry bore. It's a shame. TBH I strong suspect his story is going to end with him in jail like Cantwell, as he seems to have very poor judgment about who to surround himself with and the degree of risk associated with public WN activism.

I give a lot of credit to VD for making an effort to avoid the gay alt right drama and stick to his own business. Please keep it up.

Casey wrote:On the laptop I'm using the instructions for the captchas are cut off of the screen, but I can usually complete them successfully by selecting the blocks which have a common theme.If you click outside the CAPTCHA box, it will close, and when you open it again it will have a saner size within the comment area's iframe.

Looking Glass wrote:Plus, all Vox has done is start about a purge of Leftists from the "Right".Vox Day: National Socialism is neither white nor right-wing nor a good policy. [historical examples and quotes from primary sources omitted]

Greg Johnson: Well, if you redefine nationalism, and socialism, and National Socialism, and especially right-wing (and you should), then modern National Socialists should be considered to be more right-wing than you. And therefore you're trying to Buckley us.

1337kestrel wrote:I'm not sure what raising awareness (whining) about the Jews is supposed to accomplish. First of all, if Jewish clannishness is really a problem for us, merely redpilling everyone on identity politics and tribalism (the way the world works) should make it obvious and neutralize it.To quote Brian Niemeier, “Every time someone goes digging into the decline of a once thriving aspect of Western culture, the first shovelful always turns up Commies.” ( http://www.castaliahouse.com/star-wars-stole-pulp/#comment-221684 )

And for being less than 2% of the population, Jews are rather over-represented among those Commies. That's why merely pointing out that a person is Jewish is considered anti-Semitic nowadays.

Yes, well, antifa are closer to being nazis than the people they're attacking, so I can't fault the MSM on saying that antifa victims are victims of nazis.

"Mike Enoch...

sorry.

Never heard of her."

No no no. You've got it all wrong.

Mike (((Enoch))).

"So you don't play nice in the sand box. Whatever."

Some people are less interested in transient sand sculpture. Politeness has little to do with it.

"Id agree about the nazi imagery, except the media obsessively focused on the handful of actual nazi wannabes,"

Clearly you guys are constitutionally incapable of comprehending that just because someone says you do/did something it doesn't mean you should do it. Excommunicate the handful. They have to go back. Get it? Got it? Done.

"Once we get further into the Greater Depression they will wake up and make a choice for one side or the other and Nazi nitwits won't be a deciding factor one way or another. Don't start making the message "we aren't Nazi's". Ignore them."

It's going to happen. No one denies this. However, the fact that it's going to happen doesn't mean it should happen as us cruising diagonally into a body of water at mach 22. If we can make that transition smooth and painless, we probably should. If, on the other hand, we make it as painful as possible, no one is going to want to join us, even if they have to, and consequently they WILL BE LESS EFFECTIVE even having done so (which fewer will do).

We do ignore the MSM. We can't ignore the normies on the sidelines physically watching the Nazi LARP though. What do? Exile the infantile, developmentally retarded Nazi LARPers who aren't even on our side to begin with.

"What transpires between now and the time Antifa gets introduced to the Cannibal's pot will have little bearing on how it all plays out."

You couldn't possibly be more wrong. Again, that it's GOING to happen does not necessitate HOW it's going to happen.

"True believers never learn. They care more about ideological purity then they do victory which makes them eat their own young so to speak and therefore they achieve nothing."

For a lasting victory, "concrete victories" MUST be based on concrete purity, in this case, Truth. If you build your victories on stupid, false shit, they won't last, hence why you think that victory itself is death. You think it's death because you're doing it wrong.

"During the Revolution, the Left attacked the Right.

In both instances, the leftist oligarchs won and conquered an indifferent and ignorant populace who was unprepared for their manipulations."

You either don't know what you're talking about, or you're looking at an arbitrarily (and meaninglessly) large span of time. OR you're not talking about the American revolution. Just because "leftist oligarchs" got some power eventually, it doesn't mean they actually fought or won the war.

It just means that some of them survived the war, or that they naturally re-emerge from the general populace under the correct conditions (decadence). I'm inclined toward option two.

Last night I was watching a black guy who tried to host a patriot prayer rally in SF exasperatedly explain to the national media from an undisclosed location that he was not a "White Supremest" and that antifa violence and irresponsible reporting had forced him to not hold his rally in SF. The optics were amazing.

Hail-gate turned out to not matter all that much. Maybe c-ville will turn out to be a bad thing in the long run. It certainly caused a lot of negative stuff in the immediate aftermath. However I can imagine lots of ways it could turn out helping a lot: the right getting more tech savvy, alt-tech developing more quickly, normies getting red-pilled, the red-pilled getting radicalized, if it coming out that nazi-flag guy was a plant, etc.

I hope you're correct and that the Right wins. But...I see so many parallels to the two civil wars fought on this continent. If history is any kind of a teacher and predictor, then we really aren't in a good spot. But hey, I say we keep trying.

I do disagree with Vox on one thing. The whole Alt-Tech thing is great. But not having rallies and not fighting for social spaces on the internet? The whole "Just let California have it's own country" mindset? This is all retreat. It's all rubbish.

The Left has been making us eat their shit for years. They've forced their way into our social spaces for decades. Why do we keep retreating? Why place our hope in Alt-Tech? Why state "oh, rallies aren't our thing. It's just not economical"? We should be forcing the Left to look at us, and putting ourselves in their faces. We should fight to win the social space.

This was one of the earliest lessons I thought that Gamergate had taught us. I had learned about Gamergate from Vox. But this idea of giving up the social spaces, even in liberal territory...it just seems like we're quitting.

Where you see the Globalists advancing, I see fear and desperation everywhere, and not just from the Left Globalists, but also from the "conservatives."

I see fragmentation of the Globalist Left exploding, as they all start looking out for their own Identities. I see world-wide globalist money and influence drying up and the bad foundations starting to topple. Tons of Globalist money poured into candidates who will lose. Feminist lawsuits against converged companies, and so forth.

The market share of the MSM is smaller and smaller, and the True Believers who root for the MSM is much smaller yet. The True Believers do not believe the MSM, so much as they are fans, who do not need to believe anything, just rooting for the propaganda.

All this blame the Nazis stuff is a red herring. Yesterday a prayer rally organized by 4 minorities was shut down because Nazi white supremacist. We have growing evidense that most of the Nazi parafinalia was paid protestors.

The problem isn't that someone has a Nazi flag, they'll make sure that's always the case. The problem is we care. The problem is we haven't come up with a set of our own symbols. The problem is we allow them to blame the group for the actions of one or twoand turn on each other

The deep state is desperate to make sure we don't take this movement from virtual to meat space. That's why trolls keep showing up to tell us to not do rallies and they keep putting so much pressure on us over these issues.

The key isn't to hide in our dwindling online communities, but to be smarter about our meat space actions to make it harder for them to coopt and shut us down.

"We on the Right will purge the catastrophically stupid Leftists from our ranks."

The edgy Nazi stuff is Internet domain only. The fact that the f***ing idiots couldn't get that is a sign they're dangerously incompetent. If they're going to do that crap, go full #AnimeRight and start talking about Rightwing Loli Death Squads. At least we then know you're in on the joke.

Second, the Nazis... LOST. Hitler was too god-damn stupid & methed up to run a functioning economy & country. I also have no f***ing desire to see farm slave labor of Americans again. If people actually studied the Nazi Economic System, they'd get a right education on what pillaging your own people looks like.

But, I'll grant this. Those were some stylish threads on the officers. To the point the Japanese will love to use the styling in a lot of things.

As to Cville, it was a trap. All of the leadership either was: Fooled, Played or Paid. Everyone organizing it should never run anything of any importance for the next decade. And there's a reason why everyone generally ignores the Fringe: they're almost all clearly incompetent. That's why they're liabilities. That's how they get played by the Organized Power Structure. That's why "stop trying to help" is the kindest delivery of the advice they need to receive. Also, Civil Rights lawsuits against Cville, the Mayor, State of VA & Governor. The fact they aren't already filed is a sad testament to the utter lack of planning.

@73. Gary, "The problem isn't that someone has a Nazi flag, they'll make sure that's always the case. The problem is we care."

That's half of the problem. The other half is that we genuinely have people that both think that Nazis are a good idea, and that they're on our side. Don't try pretend those people don't exist, because they do, and there are an annoyingly large number of them.

"The problem is we haven't come up with a set of our own symbols."

I'd agree with this. We need to either come up with new ones or heavily popularize the old ones, such as "Don't tread on me."

"The problem is we allow them to blame the group for the actions of one or twoand turn on each other"

No. We can't "turn on" people who were never on our side to begin with. They're naive seditionists lurking in the weeds at best, and optic-mutilating intentional plants at worst.

In addition, just because someone says you do something doesn't mean you should. What part of this is hard to understand?

Azure, the Nazis at cville looked to be mostly if not all paid agitators. This constant harping on Nazis is a distraction. They will always be there, it worked.

Our failure from the president down to the meek commentator is that we virtue signalled over nazi rather than do as Obama did for BLM. Not all rightists are like that. Fringe actions of a few don't represent the movement. And whatever our equivalent of hands up don't shoot would be.

We have truth on our side, they didn't. Yet their response to Ferguson was much more effective.

If a Japanese, a black, a Mexican and a woman trying to pray in public can be successfully shut down by being labeled Nazi white supremacists then nothing you do or say to the contrary will protect your online or offline gathering place. Antinazi virtue signalling won't work. Nothing short of joining their death cult will work too quiet their slander.

@83. Gary, "Azure, the Nazis at cville looked to be mostly if not all paid agitators. This constant harping on Nazis is a distraction. They will always be there, it worked."

You'd have a point.

If we didn't actually have people who want to do these things who weren't paid agitators. We do, and we have a noticeable amount of them. I was arguing with at least two of them, on this site the other day, and they were fairly long-timers here.

"We have truth on our side, they didn't. Yet their response to Ferguson was much more effective."

It was effective because, even if the ones at Charlottesville were paid agitators, we legitimately have quite a few people who think they are of the right and also think that those things are a good idea, or at least not harmful.

Their response was effective because they weren't entirely wrong. It worked BECAUSE we actually have these idiots stealthing (and not-so-stealthing) among us.

TL;DR: You're either blind and wrong or an intentional liar and wrong, and it doesn't matter which.

The MPC and TRS forms have been bantzing back and forth for a while now, tough to say who "started it" as both are groups of people. I will say: TRS also launched huge public beefs with Cerno, Milo, Gavin McInnes, Greg Johnson, Jack Posobiec, PJW, and a ton of others I could name. MPC has a TRS thread and a Spencer thread but otherwise seems to have very little interest in all these slapfights.

More to the point: MPC agrees with VD that Cville was a poorly-planned disaster, Enoch and Spencer are fools who should not be running anything, optics do matter (and don't try to say "it was just one shill who brought a Nazi flag", they had DAVID DUKE there as a special VIP guest, that's how idiotic the Cville people were), and the right needs to save the edgy stuff for anonymous online trolling, while sticking to broadly popular nationalist/populist/patriotism themes in public events (yes the antifa will still show, but they'll look hysterical and obnoxious by comparison). I know which side I come down on in that debate.

Clearly if we have people that are actually either LARPing that way, or are defending LARPing that way, we do in fact care.

"If a Japanese, a black, a Mexican and a woman trying to pray in public can be successfully shut down by being labeled Nazi white supremacists then nothing you do or say to the contrary will protect your online or offline gathering place."

What part of "just because someone says you do something doesn't mean you SHOULD actually be doing it." are you mentally incapable of comprehending?

What part of "We're not dancing for the media, but we DO and SHOULD dance for the (actual)normies" are you not getting?

@92. Aeoli Pera, "I mean, how much does your culture have to suck to lose a culture war with communists? The entire Anglosphere from America to England to Australia, losing over and over and over and over...."

I couldn't agree more. The side more in line with the truth (and reality) wins. That we're currently losing ground not only to the Communists, but to the Moslems as well, speaks volumes about how decadent and deceived we are.

A recurring (and bizarre) theme in the comments and on social media is that if the Left (neolibs and SJWs) hate you, you must be on the Right.

That's retarded. Most people on the right hate spergy lolbertarians and think ancaps are annoying, but that doesn't mean they aren't at least nominally on the right.

The acceptance of white identity politics is not categorically a left- or right-wing belief. It's simply realpolitik, and whichever side happens to be able to market itself better to white Europeans and Americans in any given election will win. That used to be Democrats in the FDR days.

Personality-wise, leftists tend to have low conscientiousness and high agreeableness and openness. What does that mean? They come up with a lot of dumb ideas, don't think before they act, and expect everyone else around them to just accept them as they are. Sounds a lot like our Nazi-larping friends who are flabbergasted that we might not want them around. You simply can't run right-wing software on left-wing hardware.

Anyway, for what it's worth (precisely one data point), I'm a regular reader of Infogalactic News and this blog, and occasionally Castalia House books. I don't agree with about a third of what Vox says, but still recognize its value as either a rhetorical lesson or an incentive to think harder about some idea. By contrast, I've rarely if ever found anything from Spencer or Enoch to be anything but pseudo-intellectual nonsense. It's mildly entertaining trash, like a more modern Jerry Springer.

I don't consider any of the remaining WN 1.0 hacks to be intellectuals, like Vox or Sailer or Buchanan, nor particularly gifted communicators like Cernovich or Molyneux or even the miscellaneous writers at Social Matter. They Fake Right is a huge operational risk, has very little else to offer to the Alt-Lite and alt-Right, and should really stick to what they're best at: internet trolling.

Rallies are for sock puppets!The Left didn't take over every institution in the country with rallies - they took over total control of our 'pubic' education system and it took them 100 years.Antonio Gramsci's dream came through - not by political rallies.Here is the brutal fact as I try to explain to me 'conservative' friends - concentrating on politics to change the country is akin to shoveling manure - while the Left feeds the beast of education. And yet they keep sending their kids to be fed by disciples of Antonio.The Government/Religion/Politics/Culture merry-go-round is ALL a product of 'whoever controls the schools - controls the culture and the country'.Scanning the many comments here only reminds me of the work that lies ahead - until we face that fundamental and brutal fact - we are shoveling manure, folks!

That's half of the problem. The other half is that we genuinely have people that both think that Nazis are a good idea, and that they're on our side. Don't try pretend those people don't exist, because they do, and there are an annoyingly large number of them.

Not accurate. There are very, very few people who even understand what Nazis are or what they stood for. Putting aside the Soros/Antifa literal false-flags (which took place in bother Charlottesville and at Spencer's own NPI conference in DC during the inauguration), even the folks who honestly wave the flags - who seem to want to own the Nazi brand - do so mainly in order to trigger the enemy.

They have created their own counter-myth about Nazis based on a mirror image of the one broadcast by (((gaslight media))), edumacayshun, etc. Hitler's regime killed more whites than it did Jews, and most of the whites killed were Nationalists who didn't want to be ruled over by the crazy Teutonic supremacist empire. About the only self-identified Nazi here is Grinder, and even he seems to embrace the label in the mistaken belief that the Nazis were the only group ever to stand up to the globalist cartel. On a certain level that's true but only because Hitler et al wanted to replace the extant cartel (Jew/Anglo) with one of their own - a notion which Spencer appears to share.

Spencer deserves the attacks. He has repeatedly played into the hands if the (((gaslight media))). His own view is essentially globalist - though he seems to embrace a kind of Northern hemisphere globalism which is based at least in a large part on the notions put forth by Aleksandr Dugin. Most of the Alt-reich folks - being Americans - can't wrap their brains around this as they're viewing everything in the white/non-white lens they took from (((gaslight media))).

No I don't think vd is a troll.He is right about rallies. We need to start doing flash mob rallies in friendly jurisdictions to build up ourskill set and optics before going back into liberal strongholds.

But what we can't do is stick to online only and not do rallies period.

If you are Nazi (real or ironic). If you are obsessed with the 'Jewish Question'. If you believe 'White Nationalism' is or can be a thing.

You are at best foolish, for fighting on the enemies terms, or you are deliberately trying to sabotage the Alt-Right. Whichever you are, you are damaging our cause you are not helping.

I understand being emotionally attached to something. I have always thought of myself as a Southern Nationalist, but I think I will have to abandon that, at least for now, as well.

We must be American Nationalist(besides what's more American than The South).

As for symbols. That's easy. The Stars and Stripes. Pictures like 'Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima'. Washington crossing the Delaware. VJ Day, The Kiss. Almost any picture of Americans in the 1950's.

Remember, we don't care what our enemies say, they will call us Nazi's anyway. We want to remind Americans of who they are and what they've lost. We want them to want those things badly enough that they will join us and fight for them.

To African-Americans, Jews, Latin-Americans, I say join with us. Support American Nationalism even though you may never be considered ethnically American. While we reject the idea of 'Magic Dirt' or 'Civic Nationalism', we will not forget our friends or our enemies.

I was arguing with Sharrukin and Koanic the other day. They played catty and tried to move goalposts ceaselessly, but they supported Spencer. I've seen Grinder comment maybe twice? Sharukin and Koanic are basically regulars. We didn't really get into it (though they tried red-herring/rabbit-trail/move the goalposts), but the online Nazi RP is potentially more harmful than the LARP, because the Normies are online, and they can actually come and see the RP for themselves, even the ones who distrust the MSM.

"Not accurate. There are very, very few people who even understand what Nazis are or what they stood for."

Irrelevant. Whether they know what they're doing or not doesn't matter. They WANT to act like Nazis, and they DO try to look like Nazis, and we DO have ones who aren't plants. In addition, the (actual) Normies think they look like Nazis, and the (actual) Normies don't like Nazis.

In addition, actual Nazis were legitimately evil. You can't argue it from dialectic, and the rhetoric failure of it has been programmed into the Normie for upward of seventy years.

TL;DR: Your cutoff is Spencer. We have a sizeable contingent of people who support Spencer. Your argument is invalid.

I can't believe this is so difficult for some people. It doesn't matter what the media calls us, it matters how we portray ourselves to the fence-sitters who are gravitating toward the Alt Right. We don't need to argue that the media is lying, we just show the public who we really are. Enough people distrust the media for the message to get out.

Fortunately, despite the PR failure that Charlottesville became, the left is intent on making itself look even more ridiculous than the Nazi larpers by labeling American flag-waving babies as white supremacists.

"I've never been a movement guy. I don't play particularly well with others, in part because I simply try to do what I think is right at the time."

It is admirable for a man to do what he thinks is right regardless of what the herd thinks he should do. I applaud that.

However, I do believe that those on what we loosely call "the right" need to form alliances and to have allies. Hell, I bet not more than 5 percent of Americans could even give a coherent definition of what it means to be of "the right".

We certainly need to educate the "normal people" and perhaps even deprogram a college kid or three. The problem is that the educational establishment, the media, Hollywood, the State, much of the Church, and so much else is against us.

In other words, we need to build a coalition. No, not compromise any principles, but have allies.

You're arguing against us eliminating Nazi LARP or online RP (regardless of whether or not they know much about actual Nazis) and/or noticing it's a problem.

You're wrong.

@ZhukovG and Casey,

IMO, white nationalism can be a thing.

Realistically, it WILL be a thing unless language or religion preclude it.

There are two or three lines along which people historically organize in hard times and times of chaos. Those lines are looks and religion, with (maybe, my hypothesis) language also playing a role.

If Christians don't succeed in pulling more strongly, skin and appearance WILL.

The word "Nationalism/Nationalist" is already either very close to public acceptance, or accepted.

I'd argue that the word "White" will lose its stigmatism in the next handful of years, and if/when it does, white nationalism may end up happening if the cults/religions don't pull it apart at the seams. I'm not arguing for Nazis or "white supremacy". I don't have to.

Vox is a cuck who talks AltRight and manufactures controversy in order to shill kosher books.

Your rhetoric is weak.

Then get the fuck out and run away like Vox did if your such a fraidy cat.

Your rhetoric is even weaker. Considering that I was smart and perceptive enough to run away 20 years ago, you'd think my advice would be superior to those who recognized the problem last year.

On TRS they talked about how people were talking about the guy w/ the (brand new) flag that nobody knew, asking who he was with and saying "we should get him out of there" but right wing virtue signaling won out so no one booted him.

And that should serve as a conclusively convincing micro-example of the foolishness of not policing your own side.

@markstoval: Yes we need allies. But those whose behavior damages our cause are not our allies. We want Alt-Lite folks to become Alt-Right. We want those seduced by Nazi apologia to abandon their error and become Alt-Right as well.

"The left thinks they are winning. That's why they are ove reaching by censoring the net, attacking statues of unions generals, Lincoln, Jefferson, Christ etc and censoring centrist prayer rallies."

The left is winning. 'Over-reach' is a relative measure; when desperate actions provoke a strong current of popular push-back, you can call that an over-reach. The cultural/censorship attack efforts trotted out over the last few weeks are just the left taking advantage of the ample new room to maneuver in the public space thanks to the massive own-goal in Charlottesville. Maybe they push forward too hard in certain areas, but even with a bit of a retreat baked in the lines are still pushed forward post-Charlottesville.

"Those are the things we should be talking and memming about. Not some insult behind a paywall somewhere. This is all a big distraction in service to a week old media narrative."

See above. Who is listening/reading/reacting to those meme's? There's a distinct, sad, white-culture mirror of 'We Wuz Kangs' to parts of the alt-right. No, larping in a Nazi outfit and furiously posting on /pol/ won't bring about some magical nationalist revival. The effective contributions of 'memes' is helping to socialize a wedge between the overall middle-class and the Deep State narrative machine. Small bits of humor, insight, and reasoning that take hold against the dominate, social-shaming messaging of the Deep State Media. Charlottesville, which will be immortalized in movies/TV specials/countless media pieces over the next few years, is a counter-wedge for the left. What everyday working Joe or Jill wants to be branded a Nazi and hounded from work or friends? The Deep State machine cares very little about a small group of alt-right bloggers arguing about white glory. Again, that's sad 'We Wuz Kangs' self-contained fuckery. They care a lot about messaging that is effective in getting the middle class to challenge the Narrative. Any serious 'thinker/doer' from an alt-right perspective should always be asking is what they are doing helpful to that end, or hurtful.

@117. VD, "Considering that I was smart and perceptive enough to run away 20 years ago, you'd think my advice would be superior to those who recognized the problem last year."

Indeed.

I would like to know though, did you leave because it wasn't worthwhile/efficient fighting here/now, because you have family you prioritize protecting, because you felt called away, or because you just weren't invested here?

No I'm saying this endless virtue signalling gains us nothing and is distracting us from taking advantage of the lefts present overreach.

If we waved a magic wand and made every Nazi disappear they would still call us Nazi for not hating ourselves and then manufacture a new Nazi if necessary to prove it.

We won't win by virtue signalling about Nazis. We win by showing them calling a black a Nazi for wanting to pray in public. By showing them wanting to destroy white statues and statues of Christ. By showing them censoring the net. By showing them calling pictures of cute white girls Nazi.

Those obsessed with the Jews, or who want to blame the Jews for everything, are just looking for a way to blame their own weakness and failures on another.

They are the same as a black who thinks that whitey is holding him down and blames whitey for his own failures or even for his own crimes.

Nothing will ever be achieved by blaming the Jews. Our own people are sick - we need to fix our own people and stop worrying about the Jews. If our own people were healthy then we wouldn't need to look around for people to blame. It makes us appear weak, and not just appear weak but it is a true sign of weakness, immorality and sickness.

TL;DR: Your cutoff is Spencer. We have a sizeable contingent of people who support Spencer. Your argument is invalid.

That's unfortunate if so. Spencer is either completely incompetent, a Fed, or a Duginist globalist seeking to control the direction for other reasons. As someone asked above, in what way would a deep-state plant behave any differently than Spencer? If Spencer is not an actual enemy, he should go back to his think-tank (he already has one, it's called the National Policy Institute) and write esoteric papers.

I like Jews. I am opposed to antisemitism and reject holocaust denial.

However, I detest Socialists, Communists, and Globalists. I believe these ideologies, and the people who insist on clinging to them, should be so thoroughly purged from American society that a century from now schoolchildren will think of them in the same terms as leprechauns and unicorns.

Now let's apply this same thinking to 'White Nationalism'. What will, realistically, be the skin color of an ethnic American? Then, why not just say American Nationalist?

This post is in reaction to a statement behind a pay wall few are seeing. Virtue signalling. Nothing is gained other than to distract from more useful matters.

Nazi larpers didn't fck anyone over at cville. For all I can tell the only Nazis were bussed in by the left. The damage was caused by the moderates and right buying into the false narrative instead of attacking the true cause if violence: the altleft.

@SirGroggy: With respect, I would say that many of those seduced by Nazi apologia have very good reasons to be angry. But their anger has been misdirected, likely by our enemies, at a target that plays into our enemies' hands.

Our real enemy is the Globalist and that is where we must redirect their fully justified rage.

Nothing will ever be achieved by blaming the Jews. Our own people are sick - we need to fix our own people and stop worrying about the Jews. If our own people were healthy then we wouldn't need to look around for people to blame. It makes us appear weak, and not just appear weak but it is a true sign of weakness, immorality and sickness.

This is true. Jews would not be nearly as successful as they have been in destroying the civilization were it not for the sickness described. They had lots of help from the inside to achiever their genocidal objectives. The Synagogue of Satan, being a hatchery of Diabolical Narcissists even greater than a dysgenic system like Islam, naturally credits this to its own shining brilliance. Going back to Charlottesville, how is it that folks like (((Kessler))), (((Enoch))), etc. end up in charge of an event ostensibly devoted to preventing Marxists in charge of the city there from taking down a statue of Robert E. Lee and turning it into such a mess?

@131. ZhukovG, "Now let's apply this same thinking to 'White Nationalism'. What will, realistically, be the skin color of an ethnic American? Then, why not just say American Nationalist?"

Now, first I need you to realize I was not stating my own preferences in the matter. I was stating what I think likely to occur.

As to what will be the skin color, that depends on several factors.

#1: Can religion hold the different skin colors together long enough for the majority to be mixed?

A: It's not working so far. We're this close to a resonating explosion as a country, and Christians do not appear to be stepping up nearly fast enough.

#2: Are they really ethnic Americans?

A: I'd argue that a very large proportion, most (if not all) of the people of varying shades of black, brown and yellow DO NOT and WILL NOT behave as the white Americans can and do. There's a tiny proportion that can and do, but... assimilation will mean that they'll be virtually as white as you or me in about 3-4 generations if they successfully assimilate with the mass. Unfortunately we don't have 3-4 generations. Probably a lot of Asians will assimilate (but they're a tiny minority). Probably most of the others won't/can't.

#3: We really, REALLY need to ramp up the "Fake American" rhetoric if we want "American Nationalist" to be effective. We've got tons of traitorous sh**stains we need to get rid of (realistically) if we want to win under that (seditionist/traitor-attractive) token.

A: In addition, calling the vast majority of these people "American" is buying into the Left's narrative. I'm not saying that a tiny fraction of them wouldn't fit, but a tiny fraction cannot fix all the rest.

IMO the USA is going to Balkanize violently into two or more different countries. One of those lines is probably going to be two feet from my house if we Balkanize into more than two.

I'd be inclined to agree. I'm NOT in any way shape or form talking about anything to do with swastikas or Roman salutes though. You don't need any of that irrelevant and deleterious garbage for it.

The main barrier to my agreement is that while statistically, the USA is majority Caucasian and majority Nationalist (whether they realize it or not), a massive section of them think that all the other colors of the rainbow can integrate successfully and without harm.

In other words, I'd say they "should" be the normies but do not appear to be. Brainwashing takes time to recover from.

@139. Gary Eden, coming up with new symbology such as building around the crusader cross?

I've got a hard on for that. I'd be inclined to think that the only people who would object would be the Atheists (who are broadly culturally Christian whether they like it or not, and therefore will inevitably bow) and the Moslems (who will convert, leave, or die, because it's what they intend to do to us if we don't beat them at it).

I would like to know though, did you leave because it wasn't worthwhile/efficient fighting here/now, because you have family you prioritize protecting, because you felt called away, or because you just weren't invested here?

1. I realized I didn't want to raise my children in what I saw as the coming environment.2. Numerous people said, not unreasonably, "if you don't like it here you should just leave".3. I saw my Dad spend 12 years and millions of dollars in a totally wasted political/media effort to save people from themselves.4. I wanted to learn Italian and read Eco in the original language.

I made my choice and went my own way 20 years ago. There is no going back and there is nothing to discuss.

It's really not. "Don't be a Nazi, don't associate with Nazis or let them piggyback off your efforts, and otherwise ignore the media when they call you Nazis." Not hard at all. When people act like they just can't grasp something that simple, it's hard to take them as genuine.

And when people show up after a week of discussing this and bring up the same points that were made at the beginning ("but they'll call you Nazis anyway!"), that has to be ordinary rudeness -- get up to speed on your own time -- or repeated attempts to reframe the conversation to where they want it. Don't care which.

@147. Gary Eden, "the US flag is harder for the media to "associate with white supremacists" without alienating normies."

Agreed. The main problem with the US flag is all the people trying to use it to "Normalize Aliens".

Ideally if we could combine both... too bad certain game companies have such a hard on for doing that already and portraying it as negative/cultish. I hope they go down in napalm, so that maybe we can do that.

@Azure Amaranthine: I think we both agree that whatever is defined as 'Ethnic American' in the future is going to be genetic descendants of some group of European nations. In other words, White. So you could reasonably argue, why not call it White Nationalism and be done with it.

I am just saying that 'American Nationalism' is better rhetoric than 'White Nationalism'.

I agree that the majority of Black, Brown and Yellow will not be willing to ally with Whites. But, pushing American Nationalism is less likely to cause a knee jerk negative reaction than saying White Nationalism.

IMO, American Nationalism unites. White Nationalism divides.

On the subject of dividing. I agree that the USA will likely break up. I cannot however, over stress the importance of having our part of the New America be as large as possible. Particularly with an eye toward international recognition as the legitimate successor state to the USA and also for facilitating our seizure of the US nuclear arsenal.

Strange, I haven't seen any sign that he's not, at least for me. Of course, it may just be that the first part of Bismark's quote is correct: "God has a special providence for fools, drunkards, and the United States of America." Let's all hope the last part is too.

> And to answer the obvious rebuttal, you don't get to claim that historical cycles are divine providence.

Trump is not solely a result of a historical cycle. That isn't due for another 20 years or so, perhaps more. The response of the left to his election may move things up some though.

> If we didn't actually have people who want to do these things who weren't paid agitators.

The left has supporters of Stalin and Mao, and people who argue the current chaos in Venezuela is a good thing. It has organizations who have actually killed cops (BLM). It doesn't seem to hurt them any.

Are the Nazi larpers idiots? Yes, but you will always have idiots.

When I saw the list of people who were going to be in Charlottesville I knew I wanted nothing to do with it. That doesn't mean I'm going to denounce them for the violence started by our opposition.

> Listen 1488ers, if you follow one of those guys, you are following either an enemy agent, or a useful fool being controlled by an enemy agent.

Absolutely. And they should be called that. But that's not saying that the violence at Charlottesville was their fault. The violence started when the left bussed in the leftist protesters.

When the left disavows Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, BLM, and Antifa; I'll worry about disavowing the self styled Nazis. Not before. Does that mean I'm going to listen to or follow them? No.

@Gary Eden: I would be among the first to say, "The First Crusade did nothing Wrong!". However, as Vince Lombardi said, "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing".

We need to use Rhetoric and symbols that trigger positive 'emotional' reactions in those we wish to befriend and negative reactions in those we wish to destroy. The closer those things are to living memory, the better.

As I am sure you know, Tea Party didn't fail because of 'Old Glory', but that is a big subject in itself.

Not sure if the American flag is such a potent symbol anymore. The antifa burn it routinely on camera and apparently nobody cares.

A more fruitful approach than furious denunciations and disavowals and retreating to the internet is to provide something better. From what I can tell, it seems best to leave the statues of the South to the authorities, so I'd recommend organizing Pro-Trump or Anti-Immigration marches instead. No alien political content, yet something I believe nearly all people here would support.

But that's not saying that the violence at Charlottesville was their fault. The violence started when the left bussed in the leftist protesters.

The point is though James, that the left bused in both sides of the fracas. The Anifa and the Nazi LARPers are quite possibly street theater being orchestrated by globalists and Fake Americans.

The left has adopted hoaxing as a tactic. Blacks burning crosses on their own lawns, Jews painting swastikas on their own doors, women given themselves black eyes...

All I'm saying is that anyone who really believes in the 14 probably shouldn't be following anyone who has anything to do with the 88, because there's an excellent chance the 88 is meant to undermine the 14.

Not sure if the American flag is such a potent symbol anymore. The antifa burn it routinely on camera and apparently nobody cares.

Plenty of normal middle-Americans still care, but you have to show it to them, because the MSM won't. Most of them had never heard of Antifa before the president forced it into the light with his "on all sides" comment. It's actually an eye-opening moment for them when they learn this group has been rioting and attacking people (and animals) for a while now and the MSM didn't think it was newsworthy.

You said it best. The alt Reich don't understand that, as Paul Kersey said, "All we have to do is survive." I was in CH talking about how based our children are and really they have no choice but to be. Yes there is a limit to white superiority but it's not as though once we tip 49% that we're suddenly too weak to win. A 35% white nation can crush a 65% equatorial one even if the technologies are equal.

I guess one thing to clarify is the point that "the Nazis lost, hence anything Nazi is bad". One could also say the British Empire lost, the Romans lost, the Vikings lost, etc. Everyone in history has lost at some point. So to clarify, what this blog is advocating is that Socialism is the problem. What Hitler did to achieve power should be viewed as POTENTIALLY instructive. The SA eventually controlled the cultural high ground in Germany in a fight against communists. They did this by controlling meat space in beer halls after 14 years of inter militia warfare. They did this by fighting when the police couldn't interfere, or being too large for the police to control. They did this through jury nullification, marches, propaganda and intimidation. Hitler tossed the socialist 33 point program early on, so critiquing it is disingenuous.Since the swastika offputs normies, it is ineffective. However, the fashy haircut is highly effective. Chad culture is effective. The confederate flag is extremely triggering and effective for southerners. The boomers on this blog would listen to the Alc Right Rises and hear a bunch of kids getting drunk on whiskey in plastic bottles, calling each other nigga, and think "these morons have no future. They need more Mises/Clausewitz". If you take the average white kid coming out of public school and offer them NatSoc or boomer history lessons, they're taking NatSoc every time. Successful white identity politics might not include a moral component. Successful non-white identity politics certainly don't.

If everyone had showed up at Cville with American flags only and had been attacked by antifa waving red and black flags the images would resonate regardless of other factors.

But the people organising the rally actually thought it was a good idea to invite David Duke. And despite being poison a guy was able to walk around with a swastika flag and another with a Hitler quote T-shirt.

A large chunk of the people at the rally were clearly sympathetic to Nazism.

You can't spin that for normies.

When the media lies and calls people Nazis it discredits the media. The fucking "Don't punch right" morons just helped rehabilitate them.

For crying out loud a huge percentage of Americans actually agree with the right about the statue issue. It takes monumental stupidity to screw up a slam dunk this easy.

But one constant on the right persists: You can always count on nazis and other jew obsessives to screw things up for the white people they're supposedly trying to save.

And another thing: would Bannon and Gorka have even been forced out of the white house if Cville had never happened?

Just how big was this own goal?

And don't even get me started on the lack of a legal case against the authorities or the constant "it's not fair" whinging about the police.

Spencer whining like my two year old at the police lines "but we're the ones on your side" was cringeworthy in the extreme.

I finally understand. It's not that leftists don't have a moral sphere of loyalty; it's that they don't have *personal* loyalty. They're collectivists, loyal to the warren and the warren alone.

I resisted the notion that collectivism vs. individualism defined left vs. right, and I stubbornly insist that it's still wrong; but now I see that isn't just because it's too simplistic.

Collectivism and individualism are both of the left, while personal loyalty is of the right. So if all the mind-boggling complexity of the human social experience must be collapsed into a single political dimension, it's actually anarcho-tyranny vs. subsidiarity.

Which is consistent with the notion that we're fighting endlessly mutable skinsuits for Babelism.

@174, That makes a lot of sense. Subsidiarity requires a hierarchy of things to be loyal to. Collectivism and individualism both reject that, for different reasons. Collectivism says there is only one loyalty, to the collective (generally represented by the state). Individualism says the only loyalty is to the self, and other loyalties flow from that and are simply a matter of personal choice. The Right believes in responsibilities and loyalties corresponding to hierarchies like the one in the family and the one between man and God, so neither collectivism nor individualism can fit with that.

One problem with so many of these people is that they have no real grounding in the Western tradition. It's not entirely their fault, since they grew up disprivileged and miseducated. But as a consequence, they have no real understanding of history, or of strategy, much of which comes from a study of history. That's why Vox is so often right and they're wrong - he's read Thucydides and Clausewitz, and he's not only read Lind and Van Creveld, he's their friggin publisher. He understands strategy and tactics, whereas the planners of Unite the Right obviously did not.

I still don't know what they hoped to accomplish. Even if they had not been bothered by the authorities or the left, all they would have gotten would have been some nice videos of crowds shouting "You will not replace us" or whatever. One good meme circulating on the interwebs can have more power than that, and is far less costly to produce. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose, and they lost, bigly.

Definitions and placing things in their proper categories does matter. It's probably a wasted effort trying to convince most people, but if you don't understand the true nature of things you make mistakes.

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