"I think people are being shockingly polite with you, Saint Iaint, for how you have been acting on these forums."

Oh? How have I been "acting"?

Extremely condescending.

I'm sorry if I came off that way... that really was not my intention.

Can you accept my sincere apology now?

Yeah, sure.

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I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

You've converted to reject the Saviour of the World? You've chosen to become anti-Christ?!?

Have you started to study the Talmud yet? May God help you Tallitot!

Quote from: Nebelpfade

"I was born, baptised and confirmed a Roman Catholic. I then spent some time exploring various Christian Churches (mainly Orthodoxy and Anglicanism), other faiths, etc, all the while flirting with Agnosticism. Spent 2-3 years as an Orthodox Catechumen (after exploring it for some time), then arrived in the warm bosom of Atheism/Humanism."

WHAT?!?

No offense - but...

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'"- Psalms 14:1, 53:1

Dear Saint Iaint,

Welcome to OC.net.

As others have indicated, your reaction to Tallitot and Nebelpfade's belief system is a bit on the rude side. Since you are the "new kid in the town," you may not realize that these veterans of OC.net have been around a long time, and have gone through a process to arrive where they are today spiritually speaking. Those of us who have been on these forums for a while are aware of this, and respect their choices, and still covet their input on threads.

Since you are in the process of converting to Orthodoxy, you should be understanding of what it is like to go on a Spiritual Journey, and end up in a place you didn't expect to be. While your journey has lead to you to the Orthodox Church, their respective journeys have led them away from the Church.

While as Orthodox Christians we may disagree with them, we still love, respect, and pray for them.

Furthermore, I think now that you will have the opportunity to experience parish life in the Orthodox Church, I believe you will see that we are not quick to judge anyone, for we do not know how God works. It is a mystery. So we pray for them, and leave the rest in God's hands.

I pray you enjoy the rest of your time here on OC.net.

God bless,

Maureen

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

You've converted to reject the Saviour of the World? You've chosen to become anti-Christ?!?

Have you started to study the Talmud yet? May God help you Tallitot!

Quote from: Nebelpfade

"I was born, baptised and confirmed a Roman Catholic. I then spent some time exploring various Christian Churches (mainly Orthodoxy and Anglicanism), other faiths, etc, all the while flirting with Agnosticism. Spent 2-3 years as an Orthodox Catechumen (after exploring it for some time), then arrived in the warm bosom of Atheism/Humanism."

WHAT?!?

No offense - but...

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'"- Psalms 14:1, 53:1

Dear Saint Iaint,

Welcome to OC.net.

As others have indicated, your reaction to Tallitot and Nebelpfade's belief system is a bit on the rude side.

Yes, welcome to O.C. Net, where proclaiming the Truth is considered rude.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Yes, welcome to O.C. Net, where proclaiming the Truth is considered rude.

<snicker> Nice.

OK, so S.I. came across pretty bluntly, yes. And that won't make any friends or influence people. Sure.

And, even though I've said since I came here (Man! Six years ago?!), it's not what you say as much as it is how you say it...y'all do have to admit, we do a lot of pussyfooting around the truth in the name of "not judging." So there's definitely a call for a believer to tell former believers that, yeah, they should still be believers, and that it troubles us (or it should!) that they no longer are.

So, welcome, S.I. Thanks for calling it like you see it. Maybe a tone adjustment? (At this point, folks are going, "Well, look who thinks he's still a mod!" )

As for me...former Baptist, turned Bapti-costal, now Orthodox for almost a decade.

I'm not sure what I should reply. I have not left the Evangelical Lutheran Church officially yet as I don't want to be churchless in between, but I don't believe in it. Currently I believe that i have finally found the true original church in orthodoxy, but have not even started catechumen classes as they won't starte until september, and no one can yet be sure where this path leads me. So, I'm somewhere between "used to be protestant" and "still am".

My family was never religious, we only went to church once a year at christmas and that started because I wanted to go. (I was always the little christian in our family, I also used to read the bible a lot as kid. My parents never did. )

And, even though I've said since I came here (Man! Six years ago?!), it's not what you say as much as it is how you say it... [...] So there's definitely a call for a believer to tell former believers that, yeah, they should still be believers, and that it troubles us (or it should!) that they no longer are.

I think these two parts sum up what most are saying. Since my 'apostasy' I've received various private messages and comments directed at me. They varied from well-wishes coupled with genuine concern, to open curiosity about my journey and beliefs, to blatant arrogance and minor hostility. We non-Orthodox, and especially non-Christians, are well aware that you will follow and express what you believe 'the Truth' to be, and I doubt any would object to occurring on an Orthodox forum . It is just like most things in life though, some do so with tact and prefer a discussion, while others just like to talk at you.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

I'm not sure what I should reply. I have not left the Evangelical Lutheran Church officially yet as I don't want to be churchless in between, but I don't believe in it. Currently I believe that i have finally found the true original church in orthodoxy, but have not even started catechumen classes as they won't starte until september, and no one can yet be sure where this path leads me. So, I'm somewhere between "used to be protestant" and "still am".

My family was never religious, we only went to church once a year at christmas and that started because I wanted to go. (I was always the little christian in our family, I also used to read the bible a lot as kid. My parents never did. )

Welcome to the forum!

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

I was baptized Lutheran. However, I don't believe I ever gave up Protestantism, because it means a protest against the Catholic church, and there are many shades of Protestantism. But this depends on how you define Protestantism. I accept the Church's writings as a very important authority, and I am not aware that any brand of Protestantism that accepts any of the church's writings as a very important authority outside the Bible.

But many people criticize others as not understanding the Bible, which to me translates as having other sources of authority besides Scripture itself.

Baptized Roman Catholic, raised pretty much secular (with a belief in God and Jesus though), became born again at 19, found Orthodoxy in my mid 20's, and am still here! Though I went from a "super Orthodox convert" to someone who now at least tries to admit he doesn't know everything, and in fact never will.

I was born, baptised and confirmed a Roman Catholic. I then spent some time exploring various Christian Churches (mainly Orthodoxy and Anglicanism), other faiths, etc, all the while flirting with Agnosticism. Spent 2-3 years as an Orthodox Catechumen (after exploring it for some time), then arrived in the warm bosom of Atheism/Humanism.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like you hear of your journey as well. Feel free to PM me. If not, that's fine too. But as they say about curiousity....well good thing I'm not a cat.

I was baptized Lutheran. However, I don't believe I ever gave up Protestantism, because it means a protest against the Catholic church, and there are many shades of Protestantism. But this depends on how you define Protestantism. I accept the Church's writings as a very important authority, and I am not aware that any brand of Protestantism that accepts any of the church's writings as a very important authority outside the Bible.

But many people criticize others as not understanding the Bible, which to me translates as having other sources of authority besides Scripture itself.

ME: I might consider myself Protestant. BUT I accept the early church's interpretations to be a VERY IMPORTANT authority and I don't know any Protestant branch that does.

YOU: BUT many Protestants argue about scripture's meanings, so they accept another source outside the BibleME: BUT do they use the early church's teachings as an authority when doing so?

I was baptized Lutheran. However, I don't believe I ever gave up Protestantism, because it means a protest against the Catholic church, and there are many shades of Protestantism. But this depends on how you define Protestantism. I accept the Church's writings as a very important authority, and I am not aware that any brand of Protestantism that accepts any of the church's writings as a very important authority outside the Bible.

But many people criticize others as not understanding the Bible, which to me translates as having other sources of authority besides Scripture itself.

ME: I might consider myself Protestant. BUT I accept the early church's interpretations to be a VERY IMPORTANT authority and I don't know any Protestant branch that does.

YOU: BUT many Protestants argue about scripture's meanings, so they accept another source outside the BibleME: BUT do they use the early church's teachings as an authority when doing so?

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like you hear of your journey as well. Feel free to PM me. If not, that's fine too. But as they say about curiousity....well good thing I'm not a cat.

When I have some spare time I'll definitely write something up.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

"While as Orthodox Christians we may disagree with them, we still love, respect, and pray for them."

I feel if you really loved them - you would tell them they are making a huge mistake! What greater love is there than concern for someone's immortal soul? Would you rather if I politely allowed you to die... or 'rudely' saved your life?

"My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God."- I John 3:18-21

Quote

"So we pray for them, and leave the rest in God's hands."

Hmmm. Well I agree we should pray that everyone to come to salvation in Christ - but aren't we also called first to be witnesses to the truth?

Paul said to those who rejected the Gospel:

"Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God."- Acts 20:26-27

Truth is paramount... If you see someone walking off a cliff on purpose - you tell them they're crazy & you try to stop them. Life is more important than niceties!

Joshua

See? Punch gets it! Thanks Punch!

Glad to have found this place...

Quote from: DavidBryan

"So, welcome, S.I. Thanks for calling it like you see it. Maybe a tone adjustment?"

Thanks to you as well! I will try (and I have been trying) to tone it down a notch... I have always been too blunt.

Nice to hear from you!

Quote from: Maj

"I have not left the Evangelical Lutheran Church officially yet as I don't want to be churchless in between, but I don't believe in it."

At the risk of offending someone else... I think once your belief becomes truly & fully Orthodox - you will know that the 'Evangelical Lutheran church' is in fact no Church at all! As long as you're outside of the Orthodox Church - you're already 'churchless'.

If I were you - I would attend the Orthodox Church. Even if you can't receive the Eucharist right away or start your Catechism, at least you can worship in truth. If you really believe you've found the true Church (you have)... then you should become a part of that community immediately.

Quote from: Robert W.

"Saint Iaint, is there some special reason why you want to know this? Please tell us."

Just had a hunch... Wanted to verify it. I think some people here are still harboring some level of Protestant 'baggage'.

I have already spent alot of time on an Evangelical website arguing and trying to witness for Orthodoxy. They tend to be very fond of the Zionist entity occupying Palestine and the so-called 'Jews'.

Some I would even go so far as to say - literally worship the Zionists!

I count myself lucky in that while I still have alot to learn... at least I don't have much to 'unlearn'.

Thanks again to everyone for relaying your stories here... and please - Take no offense!

Logged

Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

I would like to remind all of you that at the top of the Convert Issues Forum Listing is an area that you may post your conversion story if you wish. It is often edifying to converts and inquirers to be able to see the common points of how someone came into the Orthodox Church.

I feel if you really loved them - you would tell them they are making a huge mistake! What greater love is there than concern for someone's immortal soul? Would you rather if I politely allowed you to die... or 'rudely' saved your life?

Exactly how do you expect to "rudely" save a non Christian's life to begin with? Do you not realize that many reject Christianity precisely because of all the bible/church father/canon thumping about burning in hell if you don't pass God's cosmic theology exam?

Then you have the other group of non Christians who genuinely just do not believe. They aren't rebelling against anything they just don't believe in the Christian message. Exactly how is threatening them with everlasting torture and torment going to convince them of the truth of Christ's message? (when in fact they A.) may believe another faith, or B.) may not believe in hell at all)

Quote

Hmmm. Well I agree we should pray that everyone to come to salvation in Christ - but aren't we also called first to be witnesses to the truth?

It's all in HOW one witnesses to that truth. Everyone is in a different place on their spiritual path. To assume every single person on the planet will come to Christ by the exact same method of witnessing is frankly not Christian at all. Jesus used many different methods to reach many different people. We should do the same, and realize that most people in our day and age just do not respond to the whole fire insurance version of Christianity. And in the end, is that even a good reason to become a Christian? To follow Christ just out of fear that one might go to hell if they don't? With that reckoning should we follow the religion that has the worst version of hell and join that faith, just in case we're wrong?

Quote

At the risk of offending someone else... I think once your belief becomes truly & fully Orthodox - you will know that the 'Evangelical Lutheran church' is in fact no Church at all! As long as you're outside of the Orthodox Church - you're already 'churchless'.

truly and fully Orthodox? But which Orthodox? OO? EO? Which EO? New Calendar, Old Calendar? What of the rare Old Calendar Eastern Orthodox, who believes that only their branch of Russian Orthodoxy is "truly Orthodox" while the Greek Old Calendar Churches are slightly less Orthodox than everyone else? Such people do exist.

As far as the ELCA not being a "real" Church? Who told you this? Only God can know such things. Did God call you on your cell phone and tell you this?

I'm not trying to argue with you exactly. I know what it is that you are trying to say. But the way you say it does come off as a bit harsh. Even though I realize you're not meaning it to come off like that.

In the end, it has been my understanding that the Orthodox teaching is that we know where the Church is, but we do NOT know where it is not. So if this is true, we cannot possibly say the ELCA is not "any church at all", because that is just beyond any sort of human knowledge. Besides telling millions of Christians that they in fact are not part of a "real" Church, and may not be Christians at all is just not the best way of witnessing to people.

Put in more personal terms, I did not become a Christian because someone threatened me with hell, or because they bible thumped and tried to sell me cosmic fire insurance, I became a Christian because people showed me love and respect for who I was as a person. I became Orthodox not because I feared going to hell if I did not become Orthodox, but I became Orthodox because I was searching for truth, and because I believed it was the true Church. I have remained Orthodox, despite my own personal doubts, skepticisms, and other problems, NOT because someone told me if I leave I'll be tortured for all eternity if I leave, (in fact it is that line of reasoning that causes me more doubts than just about anything) but because of the Truth within the Church that still touches my inner being. Often this truth is revealed through the LOVE of others. That is my personal experience anyways. My experience is not everyone's experience. But that's the point I'm trying to make. Not everyone, responds to the methods that might have worked for you. Not to put down what does work for you, but Orthodox spirituality I don't believe is one size fits all. Which is part of it's beauty IMO.

Anyways, not trying to argue, just giving my POV. I hope there is no hard feelings.

" At the risk of offending someone else... I think once your belief becomes truly & fully Orthodox - you will know that the 'Evangelical Lutheran church' is in fact no Church at all! As long as you're outside of the Orthodox Church - you're already 'churchless'.

If I were you - I would attend the Orthodox Church. Even if you can't receive the Eucharist right away or start your Catechism, at least you can worship in truth. If you really believe you've found the true Church (you have)... then you should become a part of that community immediately. "

Sorry, I was quite unclear there.

I do not attend any services at the Lutheran church, I'm just a member on paper, and I'm already starting to get involved at the orthodox church.

I also agree that the Lutheran church is not a Church, I just don't want switch my papers from one registry to another in between. It will make my move to the orthodox church smoother. At the risk of boring people reading this; over here, we are all (citizens and aliens alike) registered to a registry; Lutheran, Orthodox, German parish, Olaus Petri parish or everyone else. To move from Lutheran to orthodox, I need to fill out one form for the orthodox parish, no need to seperately leave the Lutheran church. If I would leave now, I would have to seperately register as an orthodox, when I join.

I also want to identify myself as a chistian in between. There is so much anti-christian sentiment everywhere, that this is important to me.

Quote from: Saint Iaint

" I have already spent alot of time on an Evangelical website arguing and trying to witness for Orthodoxy. They tend to be very fond of the Zionist entity occupying Palestine and the so-called 'Jews'.

Some I would even go so far as to say - literally worship the Zionists!

I count myself lucky in that while I still have alot to learn... at least I don't have much to 'unlearn'. "

You have to bring this up everywhere it seems. Stuff like this makes me think that you are just a troll, as you cannot let it go. I'm sorry, that you feel so badly against jews and israelis. Yes, they do deny Jesus as the lord, but so do the other 5 billion people in this world who are not christians.

"Exactly how do you expect to "rudely" save a non Christian's life to begin with? Do you not realize that many reject Christianity precisely because of all the bible/church father/canon thumping about burning in hell if you don't pass God's cosmic theology exam?"

You've noted that I put the word 'rudely' in quotes... I did that because I don't feel I have been rude. At all. The truth is not rude.

I don't save anyone. The Church does. Jesus Christ does through His Church - through the Holy Spirit... through His Body and His Blood. If I can somehow help to bring someone into communion with Him and His Church... their life will be saved.

I never said anything to anyone about going to hell. Salvation does not come through a "cosmic theology exam"... Salvation comes through sincere repentance, faith in the Christ Jesus, Baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit in Chrismation, and the in partaking of Christ's Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

There are definitely no hard feelings - but I'd rather not get into the rest of your post here. PM me if you wish. I will say this in closing... Your statement that we know where the Church is - but we don't know where it isn't is contradictory. There is ONE Church... and there is likewise only ONE truth.

Quote from: Maj

"You have to bring this up everywhere it seems. Stuff like this makes me think that you are just a troll, as you cannot let it go. I'm sorry, that you feel so badly against jews and israelis. Yes, they do deny Jesus as the lord, but so do the other 5 billion people in this world who are not Christians."

And... you prove my point for me!

All I have to do is mention 'Jews' - and I get jumped on! All I said there was that Protestants (or - I'm learning - also some former Protestants) seem to be overly, inexpicably fond of them... that some virtually worship them. I never said one negative thing about 'Jews' in that post!

But here you are calling me a "troll"... What is it with this "troll" garbage?!?

How can I be a "troll" on a poll/thread that I started?!? What - are you saying I'm trying to derail my own thread? Why are people so damned sensitive about 'Jews'? People have no problem calling Muslims down to the lowest... but just mention the word 'Jew' and everyone's up-in-arms!

This despite the fact that the Muslim Qu'aran shows great respect for Jesus AND His Mother (whose virgin birth they also affirm)... compared to the 'Jewish' Talmud which says that Jesus was a bastard; a sorcerer Who performed magic with His penis, and by cutting His flesh - and that He is currently in hell, in a vat of boiling excrement, and that His Holy Mother the Theotokos was a whore who bore Jesus after having had sex with a Roman soldier!!

It's one thing not to accept Christ as the Son of God - not to know Him... but it's a whole 'nother level to viciously, unapologetically blaspheme Him, His Mother and the Holy Spirit! You say:

Quote

"There is so much anti-Christian sentiment everywhere,"

Yes... and where do you think it comes from Maj? Hint: six (6) companies own 96% of all the world's media. Can you guess who own/controls those six companies? Who hates Jesus more than anyone else?

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Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

I am temporarily locking this topic for a cooling off time,as it is no longer falling within the parameters for the Convert Issues Forum purpose. Monday I will determine if it is to remain closed, split, or reopened.

The cooling period of 4 days is now complete. I would like to remind you once again that the Convert Issues Forum is where an inquirer may ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum. We try to provide an understanding of the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. WE try to keep our answers direct and simple with sources if possible,

For those who are converts, this forum should be a safe place to discuss issues that arise after one converts in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. If this topic strays from the guidelines of our Forum Purpose, I will have to close the topic or split it. Please avoid name calling or slander of other faith groups when on this forum. Thank you for your Christian love that you show to each other on the Convert Issues Forum.

The cooling period of 4 days is now complete. I would like to remind you once again that the Convert Issues Forum is where an inquirer may ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum. We try to provide an understanding of the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. WE try to keep our answers direct and simple with sources if possible,

For those who are converts, this forum should be a safe place to discuss issues that arise after one converts in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. If this topic strays from the guidelines of our Forum Purpose, I will have to close the topic or split it. Please avoid name calling or slander of other faith groups when on this forum. Thank you for your Christian love that you show to each other on the Convert Issues Forum.

In Christ,ThomasConvert Issues Forum Moderator

Thank-you Thomas...

Truth be told, I never thought there would be any discussion here. All people really needed to do was vote (if they wished)... and specify - if they were 'other' - what that 'other' had been.

As you have said Thomas, this is not the right thread for polemical discussion.