When HALO first came out I managed to create a community in it for my country ran some tourneys etc., it was really fun. We started to fix some prizes and so on. Was really entertaining and real time killer - and kept us entertained, made our own leader boards and such.
...
Oh yea... if there would be ingame replays (just like SC2 ones) it would be... *NERDGASM*

This! Anet really needs to provide tools for community to evolve and.. prosper - and for now, it looks good. Custom tournaments are a great start. Blizz made a huge mistake by not releasing some basic tourney tools available for everyone.

I understand that it is a bit early, but still, I'm wondering what are your thoughts on number of team players? Considering you can define number of players (from 1vs1 to 10vs10) while creating a game, what is your "sweet spot"? Personally I think 4 or max 5 is the best choice for potential tournaments - it's just easier to accommodate smaller teams, matches are faster and that means even more teams can participate.

@Creepjack:
From what Ive seen on vids from PAX... 5v5 looked most balanced and entertaining (3 control spots, 5 players).
The smaller teams the more I expect from game to be fast action paced, with more I find it acceptable to be bit slower (longer battles), but at the same time more entertaining from viewers pov.
Most successful team games I see are: 1v1, 4v4 or 5v5.
However with team size differences there comes map and character power balance issues. My tourney experience (HALO series) was rather easy from balance point of view - same models, same starting weapons and maps being made towards one team size really (4v4, tough some were quite playable for 1v1 and 2v2). When you have 8 classes it can be messy.
Another issue with "big" teams (6+) is that its hard to get enough teams/players to make it look appealing to future sponsors too, not to mention prizes (costly!)

Personally I think 4 or max 5 is the best choice for potential tournaments - it's just easier to accommodate smaller teams, matches are faster and that means even more teams can participate.

Thoughts?

As a long time MMO PvPer (I used to PvP in EverQuest... which was in no way shape or form "balanced," and PvP'd in most every game after that in some capacity) I really like the idea of 5 man teams. Sometimes I feel that when you get to more than 5, especially for the size of a map like Kyhlo, it can become bit of of a cluster cuss. If there are maps that have more than 3 cap points, then I'd consider saying increase the number. Also, it can be pretty difficult to jump into random PvP and try to do any coordination with more than 4 other people in the time it takes for PvP battles to start. Honestly, what I think may even be more fun is 3v3 in a Battle of Kyhlo.

The game needs a replay feature to go back and watch your matches, akin to SC2 and TF2. That alone would make it a better eSport.

I agree with this 100%. While I myself am NOT an eSport player, I do consider myself a huge fan of eSports. Specifically SC2 currently. I don't have the skill to play anywhere near the eSporting level, and I imagine I won't either in GW2, but I do enjoy watching casted matches.

Also, some kind of spectator mode would be incredibly awesome as well. Can't make it to a tourny you want to go to watch? That's cool, just log on in spectator mode. That would allow players, and fans, to track their favorite players.

Last edited by theredviola; 2011-11-05 at 03:12 PM.

"Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

You actually have a replay feature built in in GW1's spectator mode so I'm pretty confident that it will return.
Regarding the viability of GW2 as an e-sport. I don't get why GW wasn't promoted as such at the start or in it's heyday.
There is a channel http://www.youtube.com/user/GWGApok which has some casting regarding the monthly automated tournaments.

What they are doing now is great imo 5v5 feels right on big maps. 8v8 was hard to manage and in GW they tested everything. 1player +3 CP duking it out, 4v4, 8v8(ha) 6v6(ha) and 7+1vs7+1(gvg).

The dynamic playstyle should help aswell especially the dodge function which will set aside good players from bad players really easily (like shieldset in GW) and the more it feels like an FPS the better. COD does great on "domination" play style 4v4 and gw2's 5v5 no healers will lean very close towards it.

(PS: there used to be a clip online where a losing team uses the enviroment to pull out a win sadly I can't find it :'(, it was on Druid's Isle)

I'm just wondering how fast Anet will provide solid platform tools which can be used to "power" bigger events. Still the sole idea of having FPS like server list and ability to create your own games can make it a great tool for even medium to small communities. I can see tournaments popping out everywhere.

Capture points now yield 1 point/2 seconds instead of 1/point every second. Such a minor difference made much closer and more exciting games! Now, a team can't get a major lead just by neutralizing enemy points (not even capturing them).

Kills earn 10 points toward a team score. This may have been present in the Gamescom demo, but with the 1 point/second, a kill only meant the equivalent of a held point for 10 seconds, a very easy feat to accomplish. Now, a kill equals a held point for 20 seconds, which is much more reasonable in the length of encounters in Guild Wars 2 PvP and in the size of the Battle of Khylo map.

The finishing animation has been improved to show a giant spear falling from the sky to impale your foe. It's a lot more visceral than the placeholder stomp, and carries the feeling of /ranking or /zranking a foe in the original Guild Wars.

After watching new PVP videos, those changes seem spot on. Conquest never looked so good. Thoughts?

Now I'm pretty sure Arenanet said this but there is going to be a spectator mode being made into the game as well right ? I could've sworn I read it in an interview but I cannot remember for sure and I do not want to get my hopes up.

Now I'm pretty sure Arenanet said this but there is going to be a spectator mode being made into the game as well right ? I could've sworn I read it in an interview but I cannot remember for sure and I do not want to get my hopes up.

Good I think every game with at least a shred of decent pvp should have a spectator mode as it can do so much to build a community and eventually make the game even more popular.

It's worth noting that quite a few of top players actually quit GW1 when observer mode was first introduced. It did improve the average player's skill level substantially after a while though, which gets me to second con of the observer mode: skill gap between newbies and average players. Observer mode increases it greatly and it became really noticeable in random arenas and lower end of GvG/HoH where a lot of newbies got disgruntled with it.

Other then those two, it was and still is awesome. It's one of those things that WoW for some reasons hasn't yet copied from GW even though it really should imho.

It did improve the average player's skill level substantially after a while though, which gets me to second con of the observer mode: skill gap between newbies and average players. Observer mode increases it greatly and it became really noticeable in random arenas and lower end of GvG/HoH where a lot of newbies got disgruntled with it.

It's better than trying to get into PvP as a freshly dinged 85 two seasons into the expansion with no resilience gear.

-Experience in GW1. GW1 was the first MMO game (even though it wasnt truly an MMO, more like Diablo, but you get the idea) to break in to esports. It was the only one to have a strong competitive backing (including djWheat), and had tournaments with $100,000 prize pools. On top of this, GW1 was a nightmare to balance...and they did it (for the most part). It certainly felt much more balanced than WoW, and definitely helped the team learn more about balancing these types of games. Although spectator mode is not confirmed for launch, it was indeed present in GW1, so there is a high possibility of its return.

-Server browsers. This is huge. FPS players have been complaining forever about how many games now launch with no dedicated servers/server browsers. This is the first time (IIRC) that an MMO will get them. It allows easy to setup skrimages, and builds a community around regulars of that server.

-Tournaments. True tournament play is great for esports. Even if you can't be the best, you can still win a few small tournaments here and there and feel a sense of accomplishment. For those who are very competitive, there is monthly and yearly tournaments that have prize pools. Some tournaments are automated, while some can be player run.

-Small scale PvP. Most MMOs outside of WoW and GW1 have no small scale PvP. GW2 will be the first one in a long time to feature the return of arenas, but in an interesting way. Instead of simply being a box with a few pillars, they play more like a Quake map. Each one has unique terrain to explore, different map dynamics (like trebuchets and dragons), and destructible environments. Is that Necro taking cover behind a wagon? Set it on fire, and burn his cover to ashes!

-Large scale PvP. WvWvW isn't exactly competitive, but it does bring the PvP community closer together. PvP guilds become more important as they work together to take over keeps, and defend them from enemy guilds.

-Combat. Unlike most MMOs, the combat is actually fun to watch. Narrowly dodging away from the hammer swing that would have ended your life is exciting for players and spectators. Cross profession combos allow for improvised tactics that can take people by surprise. The limited skillbar allows teams to plan before the game begins, and in more ways then "Frost Mage/Afflic Lock/Resto Shaman". You need to pick your abilities carefully, like building a deck of cards. This also stops a class from ever being totally useless, as they can just "reshuffle" that deck and play a totally different role.

-No healers. Some of the funnest games in my arena career in WoW was when I played double DPS (Rogue/Lock) and we faced another double DPS. No longer did we stick to the mundane "CC/burst the healer ASAP" strategy, but actually branched out. We had to plan each ability use carefully, as one screw up could mean certain defeat. My only complaint was that the games were way too short, but this is solved by the dedicated healing skill.

-PvP straight from level 1. Want to buy GW2 as an esport game, and aren't interested in the PvE? No problem! Just play the 5 min tutorial, and you can immediately end in to competitive PvP. No long leveling process is stopping you from PvPing.

-Equalized gear. In Starcraft, what do you think people would say if one player's units took 20% less damage, just because they'd be playing longer? They'd say that it wasn't a viable esport. The same should apply to MMOs. Only by equalizing gear and abilities (MMO communism!) can there be a leveling playing field. Only then can skill truly matter.

-PvE and PvP balancing is separate. When you enter a PvP area, your skills change to reflect that. This means that there will never be any stupid nerfs to PvP because of PvE, and vice-versa.

-It's the perfect time. The only really serious, big MMOs that offer competitive PvP are WoW and GW1. Obviously GW2 is going to take GW1's player base, and WoW's PvP players are disgruntled and quitting. You only need to browse the Arenajunkies forum (largest WoW PvP community) to see this. What once once a bustling site of ideas and opinions as become incredibly pessimistic about the game's future. No other MMO in the near future has support for competitive PvP (several are promising it post-launch, but I never trust developers when they say they'll have things post-launch. Dance studio, Rift competitive PvP, etc. Besides, by the time they release it GW2's PvP will be well established).

-Easy to form teams. You sign up as a team just like you would a Starcraft team. You just enter the game with your formed team, and get rated as such. You can join as many teams as you like, so you can play with both your RL friends and your serious team. The guild system is also good here, as you can join a serious PvP guild and a casual, funtime guild.

As you can see, GW2 has a lot going for it. They've stated that when people hear MMO and esports, they should think Guild Wars 2. And I think they're on the right track to accomplishing this.

great post, i agree with what you said. you need to all be same lvl same gear. it's skill that matters, strategy, tactics and knowledge. in higher level play player skill shouldn't be trumped by gear like in wow or winning the class selection screen sweepstakes. all classes should be viable and useful and that's why i'll take gw2 pvp seriously. gonna be fun.

Also, not having healers is great as it forces critical decisions upon players. the players will have to heal themselves which brings in another element. strategy and tactics are enhanced. i think it's great.

well, you could do that but i believe an actual lvl80 would have a little advantage over a freshly side-kicked player.

Pretty sure they don't use the sidekick system for competitive PvP. If you want, you can create a PvP character at max level with the best PvP gear with all skills available etc. for competitive PvP, even if you haven't played the game before.

---------- Post added 2011-11-20 at 10:02 AM ----------

What I would like them to implement is a great "overview" system in games so you have a great idea of everything going on in a game, like an extremely accessible map with indication of actions happening throughout the map (like in MOBA games), as well as different camera angles for spectators of the match as well as a SPECTATOR SYSTEM for all competitive PvP games happening!

Pretty sure they don't use the sidekick system for competitive PvP. If you want, you can create a PvP character at max level with the best PvP gear with all skills available etc. for competitive PvP, even if you haven't played the game before.

Nope, it's not like in GW1.
In GW2 you will be auto leveled to 80 for the duration of a BG.

From what i'v seen PvP in Guild Wars 2 is highly skill based and not who has the better armor. If Arena Net can balance the class's this would be a very viable e-sport. Even in it's Alpha stage I enjoy the heck the out of watching Pvp matches on youtube and continually search for more.

This is the first game in a while that I'm actually excited to see in the E-sport spotlight. The visceral twitch combat is more enjoyable to watch than your average statistical based MMO combat in my opinion.