Buddhism back in the day was a very revolutionary philosophy, destroying the notions of caste, by allowing all within regardless of birth status and also gender by allowing women as well as men to become spiritual adherants of the sorts of formal order.

Those were unheard of 2500 years ago, those concepts of equality in India.In a lesser time and peoples certainly it would have resulted in violent repression of the worst sort anyone group advocating for such notions of equality.

Has Buddhism lost this revolutionary aspect over the years with abscription of various governments and the established order.Has buddhism instead now become to stand for exclusion, pursue the spiritual with no involvement in the politic or social, protect the established order instead.

Was buddhism in its inception all about those two issues or was it about a bit standing against a established order, a solid way of thinking as opposed to a expansive way of thinking. If that be so..has it lost some of this aspect? Or not?

If about those two issues surely that has been in some manner accomplished in the west but to what extent and is is necessary for buddhists to work for issues of social justice and equality, as those are our core values as reflected by the decisions the buddha made 2500 years ago....or not? Is it not necessary for buddhists to work at these things? The life example just to those two issues and they considered by some to be accomplished. Political thinking not to extend to other things. Why take on caste back in the day could not have the spiritual message be evolved within the constraints of caste?Or not was caste absolutely convulting to the message of buddhism?

So that and to this.....have any participated in any fashion in this stab a financial equality?the occupy movement now spread globably a bit.

Is it necessary we participate in such things or is it considered totally irrelevent to our spiritual aspect?

Here is a link from the right wing on the issue, specifically Occupy Oakland. It seems where ever repressive things are done to the movement is where it grows most quickly...

Or pehaps one believes such things are equal, are then things equal and such movements then being wrongly aimed?Aimed out as opposed to in, is that the thing?

Relatedly but aside....Wikileaks has had to basically shut down production as the banks that they utilize refuse to allow useage of their apparatus to fund contributions. Wiikileaks was implicated in large part in tunesia the initiation of the initial arab spring uprisings as the government their was found to be covertly doing things that the populace did not want of a political sort. That coupled with a specific governmental actiona and suicide, largly started the spark of that thing.That thing now a bit is this thing...occupy wall street.Are banks totally capitalistic institutions that may pick and choose who they allow to utilize their apparatuses or are they by necessity social institutions?Perhaps that is a aside question. But banking seems core to this issue.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Here in Colorado, we voted to allow the growing and selling of marijuana for medicinal purposes. This led to an explosion of dispensary businesses throughout the state. These businesses are 100% legal, but they are finding it difficult to find banks to work with them. Some of these businesses are knocking down hundreds of thousands of dollars per week and banks won't take their money. They cite federal laws that still criminalize marijuana as the reason for refusing business, but this is complete and utter BS. In the real world those banks can do whatever they want without any fear of what the feds do. Any business that can bring in 6 figures a week, legally, is a serious enterprise:one that should be taken seriously. But these banks seem to think that they don't have to do business in this state for whatever discriminatory reasons they choose. MMJ could help turn the economy of this state around but, of course, the frikkin banks don't want that apparently.

Curiously that was one of the substantial reasons for the end to prohibition back in the day...the jobs the liquor industry provided and the tax revenue it would provide.

Coincidentally I know a person who tried not to long ago to secure funding for a farm of sorts for this purpose...needless to say the banks turned him down. In colorado.The Obama adminstratiion has apparently did a about face and now consideres the same view as the past adminstration to not respect the state laws in this thing but to continue with the antiquated federal look at this. ONe more about face of many.

Are banks receiving monies from us the people in the bailout thusly necessary to follow our edicts, specifically free speech as reflected in our democracy and thus mandated to allow all groups to receive contributions through their apparatuses regardless of political viewpoint. In this specific wikileaks is anarchaic in politic view.

Goldman apparently has withdrawn funding for a local credit union in NYC that serves as a basis of funding for the occupy movement on wall street.It appears political is also the rational for this action by the investment bank goldman sacks. But goldman did receive billions in the bailout.Is not the issue thusly related?

goldman also hold what are called naked swaps on greek debt...redeemable if the greek bonds fail.hard to tell exactly how much they own as this market is not regulated mostly and not tranparant(swaps) but it may be about 17 or so percent.It is to golmans benefit thusly to see greek fail financially.

Is goldman the new theistic satan... acting as such presently in this environment. A strong case may be made for that. Their prior CEO and a governor of NJ in the US was just implicated in a vast trading scheme berift with inpriority that resulted in the bankruptcy just this past week of a major commodity trading house. He also was implicated in goldmans role in subprime back in the day 08 His actions as goldmans CEO back in 99 set the tone for the future, the derulgaion of Credit derivitives and his input in the clinton adminstration allowed the monster to be born(you couldn't make this stuff up it so strange and related) ...as was bushes secretary of the treasury Paulson also a goldman CEO and similiarily implicit in that thing fo subprime.Goldman packaged subprime mortgages had them rated as prime sold them to unsuspecting investors then bought naked swaps on those same assets.Naked swaps pay off with the failure of the debt. YOu do not have to own the debt to buy the swaps just think they may fail.They bought them, they packaged them, they knew they would failThey now hold greek naked swap debt issues. and who knows how much of spain and italian debt as well in naked swaps?

Here is a link of MF global who just went bankrupt.....CEO Corazine(ex governor of NJ) was closely involved in the clinton adminstration when they were discussing the issue of nonregulation of Credit derivitives(the thing that caused/allowed subprime to exist). A early indicator of this was the failure of a hedge fund who goldman and Corazine bailed out at the clintons request apparently in the 90's..RElatedly (perhaps) MF global was a major handler of treasury securities.The instrument the present Obama adminstration is doing everything under the sun to sell more of...? Corazine was a major democratic party mover and shaker before he lost reelection as governor.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Global

Most peoples eyes will just glaze over....this stuff is a bit hard to follow. Fact it is though no conspiracy theory.

I

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Namskai Norbu was employed by the Sikkam government back in the day to my understanding. Late fifties when at the time of the tibetan invasion of china he could not return. Sikkam , was a monarchy with theoratic undertones. To my dim recollection unregulated immigration of Nepalese led to it becoming pretty much a Nepalese type state.They voted overwhelmingly consequent to that to leave there independent state and become a state of india....70's I think.Sikkam was a independent state for quite a while but considered a tibetan type state chogyal. Fighting repeatedly incursion from Buhtan and from nepal.With unrestricted immigration of nepalese it lost its tibetan type rule of monarchy and became a democracy. So I could easily see a tibetan in this place seeing democracy as a bit unproductive. It worked to nepalese control of this place not tibetan as indian state.Part of nepal...I'd guess India would not allow such a thing,without war so it was a vote to become state of india. But tibetan by government it previously was and hence buddhist in majority. By prior democratic input a motion to become part of india failed, but that was before the nepalese large majority in Sikkam had occured, the demographic shitt, from tibet and other composite,part nepalese..... to vast vast nepalese majority.

So as a playerin these great events of state which affected him and his peoples so greatly, (nepalese are largly hindu which is the vast majority religion presently not Buddhism in Sikkam, I would not necessarily state this person great religious figure and leader is a unbiased person in regard to such things of the politic. Nor that his comments may be relevent to modern democracies as his fundemental underpinnings as employ of the state of Sikham and prior to that his grounding in Tibet were both not democracies, but monarchy and theocracy of a sort without the fundamental need of democracies to include common peoples of all sorts in issues and decision making and the necessity thusly for education upon these issues.

LIke presupposeing by the buddha stateing no mention of democracy or democratic necessity such as education to issues may be claimed by some to be a mode of action presently. When back in that day such did not exist in any form in that place so such was basically not spoken about. So such may be a reach by my take.Norbu did also not come from such environment. Great religious teacher however he be.Dzochen I'd guess he would be of greatest authority..politics I'd say maybe not the best.

Ultimately religious peoples to my opiniion of course must dsiregard all other conventional things to pursue enlightenment.Most of us however are not of that sort. Some may contend that those of us that suffer karma and may be expected to for quite a few llifetimes to come must not disregard responsibility such as one has of personal sort in a democracy to be educated vote and do such things as responsibility of the civic.

So I would say...yes close to enlightenment all you study is the religious, say a monk nun lama or some such..disregard all these things.Commoner householder perhaps who has religious focus but has other things, do only disregard such things as your government reflective of you and your actions may do heinous things as per democracies, and thusly you accumulate by your inattention to your responsibility negative effects . That is my opinion.

REad the history of Sikkam...tell me if I lie. Here is a link to its history...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_SikkimPolitics and political view in this part of the world is extreamly complex and long term are the views,not yesterday as perhaps is the western forgotton all that proceeds....as americans forget they did(continue to do) to the indian the same exact thing china did to the tibetan.

DEmocracy as used by the nepalese to end a monarchy of tibetan influence may tend to push tibetan lamas view of the politic in such manners a certain way.....no offense to the master nor their great teachings....this is politics not religion.

Last edited by ronnewmexico on Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

The Karmapa are very involved in this thing as well as the other link attests...this stuff is all political. Though they reference theocracies.

As a aside Bhutan itself had a similiarity. Bhutanese were becoming a minority in their own country. During the 90's to preserve their unique buddhist culture they round up and forceibly expelled many of the nonethnic bhutanese. This was called by some in the human rights community, a genocide of sorts.Others favoring the Bhutanese would say it was all that could be done to retain its culture and buddhist influence. A homogenesis perhaps of buddhist and hindu influence but with buddhism as predominate as reflecting population composite.

Advocates of one world one government would by this thinking be working at the behest of large countries over small.Strikeingly one world proponants in the US are often the same advocates of tibet for tibetans not chinese.I agree personally with the view of retention of culture and identity and thusly against one world/government view.Considering the Bhutanese action totally justified considering the circumstance. AS earlier on was the Tibetan view a validly defended one.

Warfare in SRi Lanka with Buddhists SRi lankans against Tamils who were some native but some imported from india not unrelated to this issue.Hindu tamils of india wanted a tamil homeland to call their own...in sri lanka. Though there was a historical presence of Tamils in SriLanka they were never close to a majority. Unrestricted immigration to the north of the island with establishment of a tamil state would soon have native sri lankan southerners a minority within their own country.....so thats is why that fight was so brutal and ugly. To Sri Lankan buddhists it was a fight for their very survival as a country. To Hindu tamils it was a chance for their own homeland establishment. Which is why india was so involved, tamils are mainly in india.

Eyes all glaze over...it's so much easier to believe the various propogandas offered by the various groups,it is so much easier to take sides and feel good about oneself right or left, then look at the real issues. They can be so complex.

No guests none to read these things, if large one governemnts be or only a few governments, no small and unique...buddhist will not be amongst them tolerated perhaps but no uniqueness to develope....it is so sad for buddhism this particular ignorance.And thusly all their ignorance of the politic...they are so at risk. No country of ownership toleration but also eventually homogenization and dilution. And will it survive this large country land of domination....I'd guess not. Ironic by refuseing to participate or know of things in that ignorance is caused the destruction of that thing considered seperate.

Seems so different now things so easy comparatiively to that world to come billions upon billions fighting to feed their own in a world that can not longer do so sickened by environmental sickness of the greatest kind.Bodhiccitta we care for....do any actually care to see others may actually know of this thing of buddhism so they may escape in the future world....or do we expect the buddhas only to favor this thing, and we just care for our personal fate or those of those we now know.So knowing politic not so important. None to read it.....I no buddhist have no stake, but it is still sad.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Apparently the general strike in Oakland was a bit of a success, Little reported perhaps..... demonstrators stateing 100,00 or so participating.Media and police stateing in the tens of thousands.

One economist states Obama is at the economic summit in Cannes to protect the american banks interests in insurance of the greek debt.MF global being involved largly with this issue. They are bankrupt kaput gone but other bank in america aparently have very large interest on the debt, enought it is thought to throw the US back into recession if things go not their way.

American banking favoring greatly the terms of the bailout greek people against it but both greek majority parites favoring it apparently....so perhaps as in the US no outlet for their disfavor.

A reset of the debt to level able to be paid by the greeks as happened in argentina around 1002 seems most logical.But this is not wanted by american economic interests and generally the EU.It took argentina quite a while to break the will of the debt/bond holders...this to me seems similiar.And they were in much worse personal financial straights due to the austerity methods so the people were much more inclined to call for political change.

No referendum in greece(parliment vote apparently).....now we have consensus is the rumor. American corporate news state.......the Greek PM is a great great negotiator...yesterday he was hated. No obstruction to the deal credit default swaps will not be incited by the terms apparently.

Eyes glaze over....

though it be the crux of issues that may result in gross constriction of resources consequent to this thing of debt and credit eventually....none see the implication. So when such happens they not following it will be quite surprised....and suddenly they will all be great experts....now it is not so important.

but crisis again will come this thing will only wait. Warning bell sounded none are there to hear it. Economic is the political, political is the thing of genocide and war as tool for the economic, full circle religion oft as not the tool of those that be to extend control of those that may be affected....not all of course but oft as not. And not Buddhism most typically but can be used as well that for political economic purpose. So religion is not exempt from the politic.For those few seeking enlightenment perhaps, most...not at all.For those that need first to eat then to the spiritual....economy politic and the rest..is of significance.If you need to eat first then to the spiritual and think you may ignore....you are quite mistaken...

Market now to fly....my bets on yesterday...to fly. Soon to sell soon to sell

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

The message today is very clear, at least for a large part of those who are still able to think on their own ...

The financial planet with (capitalist) speculation has created the situation in Greece (but in Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, USA, ...), those speculators, because of the laws they have helped to instituate, lobbying pressure and the support of puppets governments "they" have elected, do not pay one penny of taxe ... the peoples have to effort and to pay the heavy bill (and with a smile). When they protest, police, army is there to contain them. And when a gov.'s responsible says we gonna ask them, they just say "no !!!, it's a scandal, when we decise it has to be respected (special Sarko's one), and so on" ... never ask the peoples, they are ignorant!

So now, everybody can clearly see that we are living in dictatures, much more dangerous than previous ones (puppets Hitler, Stalin and co.) because at that time we could resist, and much more vicious because they call it democracy.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

There is always a debate in the americas and it is a republic not a democracy..The reason why the debate opinion differs on this but my opinion is not remote nor singular...

Alexander Hamilton and them that favored a strong republic as opposed to a strong democracy ala Tom Jefferson...as they took the common folk to be easily very easily influenced by those of strong view and opiniion regardless of the verasity of those opinions.

The history of america speaks of that of nothing else...studied closely as from the other side, the peoples side....it is always oppression and surpression...with the common folk like as not the rubber stamp upon these things. Very rarely will the common folk be found to be doing the right thing or holding the progressive view.Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, Spanish american war, wars of native surpressions(with no name they are so shameful), and on and on...all very much favored until it became clear at times in some of them the right thing to do was the only option....mostly.

The common folk....so easily manipulated (they want only to watch dancing with the stars, stuff their bellies and believe in their nobility),till the power goes out or the bill needs paying..they then look around and wonder why...usually to find(go figure), more lies...their inattention to things being self not other imposed. Such is the common folk...then and now...I personally side with Hamiliton.The people generally mostly...they suck, about as much as their rulers.

"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.

Sönam wrote:The message today is very clear, at least for a large part of those who are still able to think on their own ...

The financial planet with (capitalist) speculation has created the situation in Greece (but in Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, USA, ...), those speculators, because of the laws they have helped to instituate, lobbying pressure and the support of puppets governments "they" have elected, do not pay one penny of taxe ... the peoples have to effort and to pay the heavy bill (and with a smile). When they protest, police, army is there to contain them. And when a gov.'s responsible says we gonna ask them, they just say "no !!!, it's a scandal, when we decise it has to be respected (special Sarko's one), and so on" ... never ask the peoples, they are ignorant!

So now, everybody can clearly see that we are living in dictatures, much more dangerous than previous ones (puppets Hitler, Stalin and co.) because at that time we could resist, and much more vicious because they call it democracy.

Sönam

I think I'd rather live in an IMF-neoliberal regime than a Stalinist or Nazi one. So I don't agree that we are living in a more dangerous situation.

But nonetheless, the comparison is not as far fetched as it may seem. There is something ruthlessly totalitarian about the epoch we live in ~ one of the great paradoxes of free market economics is that its fundamental political premise is protecting the freedom of individuals to choose.

And yet, in reality, individuals are only allowed to choose one thing! If they choose something else, coercive force is deployed swiftly to make it clear that such choices are not acceptable.

I always knew this theoretically, but now I have good empirical evidence for this, having watched Melbourne's Occupy movement get ruthlessly and violently shut down by the state.

75 or so good natured and peaceful citizens calling for a more egalitarian distribution of income: 400 riot police come in to destroy them.

In this sense, neoliberalism is profoundly totalitarian. It does not tolerate dissent, and is brazen in its contempt for anything genuinely democratic.

goldman sachs getting their "appointed" not elected euro ducks in a row..

ROME (AP) — Economist Mario Monti [i]accepted the monumental task Sunday of trying to form a new government that can rescue Italy from financial ruin, expressing confidence that the nation can beat the crisis if its people pull together.

His selection came a day after Silvio Berlusconi reluctantly resigned as premier, bowing out after world markets pummeled Italy's borrowing ability, reflecting a loss of faith in the 75-year-old media mogul's leadership. Berlusconi quit after the Italian parliament approved new reform measures demanded by the European Union and central bank "officials" — but even those are not considered enough to right Italy's ailing economy.

"There is an emergency, but we can overcome it with a common effort," Monti told the nation, shortly after Italy's president formally asked him to see if he can muster enough political support to lead the country out of one of its most trying hours since World War II.[/i]

problem, reaction, solution...

hegelian dialectic.

Last edited by Heruka on Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mario Monti holds a degree in economics and management from Bocconi University, Milan. He completed graduate studies at Yale University,[2] where he studied under James Tobin, the Nobel prize-winning economist.[3]

He taught economics at the University of Turin (1970-85) before moving to the Bocconi University, of which he has been rector (1989-1994) and then president (since 1994). His research has helped to create the Klein-Monti model, aimed at describing the behaviour of banks operating under monopoly circumstances.

Monti is a Praesidium member of Friends of Europe, a leading European think tank, was the first chairman of Bruegel, a European think tank founded in 2005, and he is European Chairman of the Trilateral Commission, a think tank founded in 1973 by David Rockefeller.[4] He is also a leading member of the Bilderberg Group.[5]

Monti is an international adviser to Goldman Sachs and The Coca-Cola Company.[6]

Papademos was born in Athens but his parents were from the town of Desfina in Phocis.[2] Papademos attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, gaining a degree in physics in 1970, a masters degree in electrical engineering in 1972, and a doctorate in economics, in 1978.

He taught economics at Columbia University from 1975 until 1984, and then at the University of Athens from 1988 to 1993.[3]

He has served as Senior Economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston in 1980. He joined the Bank of Greece in 1985 as Chief Economist, rising to Deputy Governor in 1993 and Governor in 1994. During his time as Governor of the national bank, Papademos was involved in Greece's transition from the drachma to the euro as its national currency.[4]

After leaving the Bank of Greece in 2002, Papademos became the Vice President to Jean-Claude Trichet at the European Central Bank from 2002 to 2010. In 2010 he left that position to serve as an advisor to Prime Minister George Papandreou.[4]