" Though, while I am clear about what the psychopath wants from "her", I am less clear about what she wants from him. Initially, she wants that overwhelming recognition and validation of her inner self that he so gloriously mimicks. But what keeps her there when it all turns to the worst kind of invalidation and blindness to her inner self? I think maybe that is where she is stuck inside."

That's where our repetion compulsion comes into play. Continually, over and over, replaying what happened to us and feeling the feelings we had in our childhood. Replaying the drama over and over, just with different people. Replaying those original feelings of rejection, betrayal, violation. Like the little girl who adores her parents, and is constantly rejected by them. Or says why can't they love me for myself. Why do I have to bend to the way they want me to be to feel some sense of love. Or taking on either of our parents role and replaying their dynamics in the family.

Until we realize there is an unconcious script going on,on our part, and try and break the spell. I liken it to a hypnotic suggestion, that we are given as children.

Like a stage hypnotist, who hypnotizes a member of the audience, and says whenever I snap my fingers, you will start flapping your arms like a chicken and when the hidden hypnotist snaps his fingers, we start flapping our wings like a chicken, but don't know why we are doing it.

I agree boys and girls are different in fundamental ways. I don't think this is true in the unembodied spirit. There, I think we are all both male and female. But we are incarnated as one or the other.

Alot of the differences we see have to do with subtle genetic differences, translating into subtle physiological and psychological differences. The differences are made clear by boiling down all men into one set of percentages of traits, and doing the same for women. The traits generally considered "male", and the traits considered "female", manifest cross-genderally, of course. We see interpersonally facile men, and women who cannot meaningfully relate. And we see women who are born mathematicians, and men who are born ballet dancers. But in the coarsest sort of generalization, it can be said that women are relaters (or feelers) and men are thinkers and doers. Or rather "more so" of this or that than the other sex. Generally.

Persistent's continuum could be used, in a very broad (crude) way, to indicate the continuum between male and female. If one thinks of women as more inwardly turned, and men as more outwardly turned. Even physical sexual charactersitics express this principle. A woman's sex points inward. A man's sex points outward. I think a female is at an advantage, in terms of inner development, by virtue of being born female. And so, mothers do have an important task in helping boys to develop inwardly.

I don't want get into weird territory, but according to my beliefs (reincarnation), the cycle is male-female-male-female. I bring this up so as to indicate that I, in no way, see one SOUL as more developed than another, based upon an "accident" of birth. Both male and female characteristics are valuable to the development of every soul.

But, if there are more male psychopaths than female ones, this difference could be part of the explanation.

Even more disturbing to me, in these difficult socio-economic and materialistic times, is the "daycare, after school care, latchkeys, and gangs" status quo. Not to mention the video games and other electronic babysitters, and molders of our children. Electronic "babysitters" not only deliver an often violent, sociopathic message. But electronics are not possessed of a beating human heart. They are cold at the center, even when the message is warm and fuzzy. Children, male or female, cannot develop necessary inner resources without the feeding and tending of a human parent.

I think we are going to see more and more female psychopaths. I think we already are.

I just went through a reread this thread. When I read it the first time it was like it was in a different language for me. When I read it today. . .it all made sense and validated what i have put together relative to my P experience. Thank you.

There are several reason why I think this, the most significant is the CHARISMA factor, its there in most psychopaths. I think it is genetically linked to the condition. I think our ancestors probably clubbed to death the non-charismatic psychopaths before they got a chance to breed.
Charisma is a significant factor in other mental disorders too... its interesting.

Then there is the fact that being treated badly does not produce bad people across the board, it can produce damaged people yes... But bad people psychopaths, I think thats different, there are differences in the brain after all (though I suppose this could be from lack of use of certain area, isnt it more likely that some hormone factors are having an affect here) I think psychopaths are destined to be what they are, maybe the extent they act out can be altered by upbringing, but I wouldnt think by that much (maybe just criminality).

Most kids find something to love, be it a dog or cat or just adopting a friends parents... kids are practically programmes to find love its a survival instinct. (except with the psychopath finding is as far as it goes, there is no returning)

I have a friend who I think might have this, shes a nice person really but very self obsessed and always looks at her life as if it is in a spot light and everything is always great (even when it very definately isnt).

She causes damage more by accident than desugn and gets no pleasure from the damage she causes, but it is gone almost before it is noticed. There is empathy to some extent, but more because she feels she wants to be seen as being understanding, she tires of it quickly.
But I stand by what I say in that she is not bad, she is just cocooned from the outside world.

I have no therories on this condition, if it is genetic or bought on by a desperate need to be self sufficient and protected, I dont know. I real feel it is nothing like the psychopath though.

I have prepared the following information, partly to have for myself, but also to back up my beliefs whenever it becomes appropriate. I wondered whether it might help others to relate the criteria to their own experiences. I believe that there is a high possibility of psychopathology too as there is a definate lack of conscience, but for now I am going on what is more identifiable and also because Psycholopathology is not included in the DSM. All psychopaths are also nacissists so it seemed better for me to concentrate on this.

NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER According to the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual (DSM-IV & DSM-IV-TR)

1) Grandiose sense of self importance……refused to take jobs below perceived abilities. Expected to be accepted as a ‘professional’ without having the personal qualities required, for example, commitment to career choice and well thought out career plan. Was unwilling to put in more than the absolute minimum of time over studies and research and took no interest in networking or joining associations and attending conferences etc. Saw a career as a means to an end ie to gain recognition from others of achievement and perhaps envy. Has never had a clear idea of what he wanted to do. Handled interview rejection extremely badly.

2) Fantasizes over success. Studied the stock market for a few months and was convinced that his superior knowledge would make him rich. (Made unwise investments with large losses) Took a job as a kitchen salesman and was convinced that he would make a fortune (enough to pay off a large secret debt). Had to leave after no sales. Expected to do well in exams by putting in the least amount of effort then cramming at last minute, ignoring the possibility of sickness interfering with his plans.

3) Believes he is special….has disdain full attitude towards those with ‘lesser morals’ or towards those to whom he feels superior in other ways.

4) Requires excessive admiration…is aloof and haughty towards those who do not respond to him with admiration especially if they do not like him. Expresses aggression towards them in private. Has made a violent threat towards someone in private who accused him of a violent act and reacted with extreme anger when informed of the accusation. Reacts to all negative comments from others with anger.

5) Sense of entitlement…. Would not save up for things or do without anything needed, but used credit, running up large debts with no concern about repaying them and responded anger when creditors demanded payments. Expected his feelings to be respected without conferring the same privilege to others i.e. banned stepchildren from mentioning their father and his family, partner from mentioning previous relationships right from the start of the marriage.

6) Interpersonally exploitive…takes advantage of others to achieve own ends. In his quest to receive ‘narcissistic supply’ or good opinion and trust from others especially from his children and step children, rather than working to earn this, he has used manipulation tactics to make himself look good compared with the children’s mother by undermining her parental authority and respect and love from the children by siding with them against her behind their backs, disagreeing with her decisions regarding them and using the emotional stress she was under due to his abusive of her, and her anger towards him, to let the children think that they were in danger of being attacked by her and therefore he was their protection, despite the step children’s good relationship with her before the marriage. Kept step-daughters truancy a secret on these grounds. Isolated family from previous friends and family so that wife and children became more dependent on him and took over roles and duties in the home to achieve the same end. Refused to give children areas of responsibilities and insisted on doing everything himself for them so that they grew up with little confidence in themselves and few managing skills and inability to make good decisions and therefore more open to abuse.

7)Lacks empathy…unwilling to recognise the needs of others. Would not listen to son who was upset for years that his brother was favoured and was treat differently (true) Has never respected needs or feelings of wife and blames her for his lack saying it is due to his resentment of her (imperfect behaviour)

8)Envious…had high expectations of a professional career, being envious of those in society who have been rewarded for their hard work and study, but is unwilling to put in the hard work himself and start lower down the ladder than he expected to be. Is angry and distain full towards those who have inherited riches.

9)Arrogant and haughty…especially towards psychiatrists and GP’s. Behaves dismissively towards them. Says that no-one is to be trusted, and is always defensive and paranoid apart from with children, where he becomes their best pal, easy going and permissive, never telling them what to do or correcting them when needed like other adults. They respond by thinking he is wonderful. Rages when contradicted or confronted by people he considers to be inferior to him (everyone). Has never shown respect or said a good word about anyone. Has never shown any compassion towards others who were suffering apart from animals and young children who he sees as victims like himself. However this concern seems put on and not genuine.

Mmm... I'm not convinced that all Ps are Narcissists (but would be very happy to be directed to the research that will convince me). If you read Hare, I think he has found that a classic P has no desire to be social at all. I thnk this is reflected in the label "Anti-social Personality Disorder" and although I appreciate that the set that represents APD and the set which represents psychopaths do not map onto each other perfectly, at its core psychopaths in common with those with APD are not interested in the slightest in interacting with other people or what other people think about them, other than to get their (frequently depraved) needs met.

Loosely speaking, I believe that Narcissists are only worried that other people think what the N wants them to thing about him/her, and some of them will so pursue the acceptance of their "image" to the point that they are downright abusive, tapping into others to provide the narcisstic supplies (attention, admiration, respect, money, sex, shelter, etc) they need to facilitate the image. Like Narcissius, they are more attached to their image than to any other being, however nymph-like.

It is quite possible that most of the Ps on this board do have a degree of co-mobidity with Narcissism. Yet some of the stories and descriptions of Ps traits recounted on this board I think show that some Ps described here have scant evidence of Narcissistic disturbances.

So until someone shows me something that has been published by a qualified MD, that states explicitly that all Ps are Narcissists, I'm going to continue in my appreciation that there are Ps and there are Ns and that there is frequently co-morbidity between the two disorders.

Q: What exactly is the difference between narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and psychopathy?

A: There is a chance that a person with NPD could answer the question. There is no chance that a psychopath could.

Something I've been thinking about too. The two syndromes do appear on the surface to have a lot in common. Emotional deficit, and inability to empathise (I think) being the underlying common factor.

I agree with your answer. The N is capable of self awareness - they are able to come to the realisation that there is something wrong with themselves, that they are not normal, or at least very different and seek help. The N self submits to therapy. The true P lives in a perpetual delusional state concerning its own nature, and can never see that there is anything wrong with itself. Never self submits to therapy, and when it is forced into therapy will try to hide its true nature by hoodwinking the therapist. Also confusing the issue is the fact that many (all? -dont really know) P exhibit many characteristic indicators of Narcissism.

heres a response from Sam Vaknin, a self aware N, from an older thread, which I think is useful.

-------------------------
Answer by Sam contributed on November 17, 2003, at 09:18am. Last updated on November 17, 2003, at 12:16pm.

Psychopaths or Sociopaths are the old names for antisocial PD. The line between NPD and AsPD is very thin. AsPD may simply be a less inhibited and less grandiose form of NPD.

The important differences between narcissism and the antisocial personality disorder are:

Inability or unwillingness to control impulses (AsPD);

Enhanced lack of empathy on the part of the AsPD;

Inability to form relationships, not even narcissistically twisted relationships, with other humans;

Total disregard for society, its conventions, social cues and social treaties.

As opposed to what Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil - they lack the intention to cause harm. As Millon notes, certain narcissists "incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt." (Millon, Th., Davis, R. - Personality Disorders in Modern Life - John Wiley and Sons, 2000)

Narcissists are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of their fellow humans. Their abuse of others is off-handed and absent-minded, not calculated and premeditated like the psychopath's.----------------------------

the final paragraph sums up the essential difference for me, though I think Sam is wrong about the psychopaths 'inability to form relationships' - or maybe just being somewhat imprecise, and misleading. Inability to form normal human relationships would be better. I.e. those based on honest communication and co-operation, rather than the p-victim bond , which from the Ps point of view is based on dishonest communication (and avoidance of communication) and exploitation.

Thanks for that JustAMan<br><br>I agree that Psychopath's cannot form relationships, which to my mind implies a two way thing. It is a victim/purpetrator bond which is not a relationship I think.<br><br>From what you have said, I must conclude that my husband is a Psychopath with strong n features in his psychology as there is definately evil intention there in the way he has manipulated his sons, not just to be n supply but to lose their love and respect for me.<br><br><br>I do seem to want to believe that Psychopath is an n instead. What difference is there in the recovery of victims in each, does anyone know?<br><br>I am doing really well and have asked my GP for me to see a psychologist for evaluation. My problems are over my sons who are alienated from me and my fears over any future relationship. I do not want to spend my life alone but I am unable to contemplate a sexual relationship as I still feel violated. I wonder of there is a diffeence in the aftermath of both conditions as far as this is concerned?