If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

I got it. I thought it a bit cheezy. A big part of it was a number of scenarios with which you could strongly agree, agree, neither, disagree or strongly disagree. IMO the correct answer to each was "it depends." Lots of square pegs/round hole choices trying to drive things into tidy responses. I did like, however, that nearly every answer included the opportunity to add your own comments. But not the scenarios.

The also asked if you could change one thing about BSA what would it be. I said they should fire everyone on the national advancement team.

1 like

Comment

They sent me the poll also. One of the questions, and I am paraphrasing, was "What do worries do you have about changing the policy?" I answered that the BSA would take the money saved from litigation and add it to their salaries instead of putting the money in real program.

Think they got the hint of what I think of most of National?

My $0.02
Rick

Comment

Comment

When I met and talked with Wayne Brock when he was the ACSE a few years back he struck as a very indecisive man who wanted to please everyone. This mindset has now spread throughout the National staff rendering them virtually unable to make the tough and important decisions rendering themselves totally irrelevant to the scouting program. I vote for the local option in deciding what kind of program you want for your units, within some loose structured guidelines. The only problem is I rather doubt ANYONE at National is even capable of developing such guidelines. So lets return the scouting program back to the local level where it really belongs.

Comment

I copied and saved the scenarios from the COR survey questions if anyone else wants to see them.
They were worded weirdly to me. Like is it acceptable or unacceptable for the troop leader to allow an openly gay and heterosexual boy to tent together.
um, it depends on whether the scouts are choosing their tent mates and agree to this, or if the adults are choosing tent mates. As long as the youth are ok with it, it shouldn't be an issue. it's not like the heterosexual scout will catch the gay from the gay scout.

My suggestion to national is local option, and to provide some suggested policy statements for each side. So if a unit chooses to allow homosexual scouts and leaders,maybe they do want to cover tenting situations or other policies to clarify things. and if a unit chooses to disallow homosexual scouts or leaders, especially if their CO is not one of the churches with that opinion, their policies might need to include xyz to coverall bases.

I don't know, regardless of where this goes things are going to get wonky for the while.

Comment

The survey for this council consisted of only a couple of questions. I hope it was the same one to which others responded. I have to admit...it did seem like BSA is hoping against hope that this corner they've painted themselves into will suddenly turn into green pastures of membership harmony and agreement. It smacks of weak leadership. Or I guess I could be reading into it my own critical view of the leadership.

1 like

Comment

I think my survey was aimed specifically at parents. My scenarios were about a COR exercising their options and gay men as Scoutmasters. As others have noted, it felt pretty lightweight. I'm wondering if BSA doesn't want to gather too much information.

1. The current Boy Scouts of America requirements, stated above, prohibit open homosexuals from being Scouts or adult Scout leaders. To what extent do you support or oppose this requirement? (Scale: Strongly support, Somewhat support, Neutral, Somewhat oppose, Strongly oppose).

Following are some possible scenarios that could happen if the Boy Scouts keeps or changes its policy. Please tell us the degree to which you believe the actions taken in each scenario are acceptable or unacceptable. (Scale: Totally acceptable, Somewhat acceptable, Neutral, Somewhat unacceptable, Totally unacceptable)

ROTATE QUESTIONS 3-8

2. Tom started in the program as a Tiger Cub, and finished every requirement for the Eagle Scout Award at 16 years of age. At his board of review Tom reveals that he is gay. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the review board to deny his Eagle Scout award based on that admission?

3. Bob is 15 years old, and the only openly gay Scout in a Boy Scout troop. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the troop leader to allow Bob to tent with a heterosexual boy on an overnight camping trip?

4. Johnny, a first grade boy, has joined Tiger Cubs with his friends. Johnny’s friends and their parents unanimously nominate Johnny’s mom, who is known by them to be lesbian, to be the den leader. Johnny’s pack is chartered to a church where the doctrine of that faith does not teach that homosexuality is wrong. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for his mother to serve as a den leader for his Cub Scout den?

5. David, a Boy Scout, believes that homosexuality is wrong. His troop is chartered to a church where the doctrine of that faith also teaches that homosexuality is wrong. Steve, an openly gay youth, applies to be a member in the troop and is denied membership. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for this troop to deny Steve membership in their troop?

6. A gay male troop leader, along with another adult leader, is taking a group of boys on a camping trip following the youth protection guidelines of two-deep leadership. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the gay adult leader to take adolescent boys on an overnight camping trip?

7. A troop is chartered by an organization that does not believe homosexuality is wrong and allows gays to be ministers. The youth minister traditionally serves as the Scoutmaster for the troop. The congregation hires a youth minister who is gay. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for this youth minister to serve as the Scoutmaster?

8. After reading the scenarios in the previous question, please answer one question again. The current Boy Scouts of America requirements prohibit open homosexuals from being Scouts or adult Scout leaders. To what extent do you support or oppose this requirement? (Scale: Strongly support, Somewhat support, Neutral, Somewhat oppose, Strongly oppose).

9. Different organizations that charter Boy Scout troops have different positions on the morality of homosexuality. Do you support or oppose allowing charter organizations to follow their own beliefs when selecting Boy Scout members and adult leaders, if that means there will be different standards from one organization to the next. (Scale: Strongly support, Somewhat support, Neutral, Somewhat oppose, Strongly oppose).

10. What is your greatest concern if the policy remains in place and openly gay youth and adults are prohibited from joining Scouting? (Open end)

11. What is your greatest concern if the policy is changed to allow charter organizations to make their own decisions to admit openly gay Scouts and leaders? (Open end)

12. Do you believe the current policy prohibiting open homosexuals from being scouts or adult scout leaders is a core value of Scouting found in the Scout Oath and Law? (Yes or No)

13. If the Boy Scouts of America makes a decision on this policy that disagrees with your own view, will you continue to participate in the Boy Scouts, or will you leave the organization? (I believe I can find a way to continue, I do not believe I can find a way to continue, I have not yet made up my mind)

Comment

I got the survey as well, I think they were not just fishing for the viability of the local option, but were also trying to figure some things out about YPT changes. I didn't think it was that lightweight. I was just expecting a vote on local option vs. current status. I did have the survey set up for scouters though.

Comment

Well, that is a different survey from the one I responded to. That is a short list of 'situational ethics' scenarios and I'm at a loss as to what general principles BSA is supposed to derive from the 'consensus' responses. This is an example of how uncreative and thoughtless a committee can be (I might also mention cowardly). They really hope that the lack of clarity they themselves have within the BSA leadership will somehow become clarified if they just pose the right scenarios so that everyone can see the clear truth the same way. Good luck with that.

1 like

Comment

Yep, many of the National questions are way too open ended and ambiguous. Answers will vary depending on what you think they want to get at. Did the best I could, as it is better than nothing. Still simply think the "local option" is the ONLY answer; but National would need to assure the CO's of support should the PC people choose to sue individual groups. Most CO's would not have the financial ability to fight such a suit, and the Gay agenda supporters know that.

Comment

Question 1: Would you rather membership to be determined at the national level?
Question 2: Would you rather membership to be determined by your unit and CO?
That's simpler and more direct.
The fact that the survey asks all that other stuff seems to indicate that 'they' want to shirk responsibility and 'blame' someone else for the eventual decision under the disguise of trying to gain a deeper understanding of what the membership is thinking. Do you think their survey creates greater clarity for someone? If so, please explain. As Ross Perot says, "I'm all ears".

Comment

Packsaddle, you must be old to be making Ross Perot jokes. And I must be old to understand them.

I applaud them for asking any questions at all. I'd rather see what the parents of scouts say than those that would be just fine with destroying the BSA to win an argument.

I think the clarity comes from forcing people to think about real situations. I doubt most parents understand the relationship between the CO, the unit, and the council, so using scenarios seems like a good idea.

Unfortunately this whole thing has little to do with logic, so there's no point in reasoning about it. You're welcome to toss all of my arguments. I won't be offended.

Comment

MattR, I have great respect for forum members so I take your arguments seriously. You're right, I was even a young campaigner for Barry Goldwater! In comparison, Perot was a comical afterthought, lol, even though I sympathized with his frustration with the Republican party.
But I have seen so many committees, participated in so many retreats and brainstorming workshops and mindless planning sessions that I have a healthy contempt for weak leadership - and that is what seems to be painfully obvious in the high ranks of BSA, at least with respect to this decision. When weak leaders are unable to make a hard decision sometimes they try to run away from it by delaying or holding meetings to gauge opinion and impacts. It is a sign that they either don't have a solid set of principles or else they are afraid to stand up for them. Which of those is a good thing?
IMHO, the survey is a time-wasting tactic in the hope that WE will make the decision so obvious for them that they 'have no choice' as a defense, regardless of how they eventually decide. NJCubscouter has often wished for people to just do the right thing. Weak leaders are afraid of the 'right thing' no matter what that happens to be, if they know they're going to 'take some heat' for it.
I do give them credit, at least, for not creating a new form to fill out. Thanks for that!