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Monday, August 22, 2011

Tiahuanaco and Puma Punku

I had to knock out all the
pictures in this post in order to actually read the text.The pictures are the main reason to go to
this site so I suggest reading the text here first and then linking to the
original post to enjoy and understand the pictures better.

It is clear that the site is
hugely destroyed by heavy earthquake activity and from the record alone, it has
been often contaminated with more recent carbon sources.It will take extreme care and substantial
excavation to get a secure carbon date and that has not happened for the Great
Pyramid either.

Podnansky’s efforts arrived at a
celestial date that is fifteen thousand years ago.Much as I would love to give that credence,
it is still speculative as are all such work ups.Five thousand years ago we had a astronomically
sophisticated society that was able to lay out the Great Pyramid and Stonehenge that was still plausibly informed by even
older records that understood the thirty degree shift of the crust some 13,900
years ago.That simple combination would
allow aligning structure to preserve per shift alignments.

What is significant is the
fifteen thousand year alignment that is unreasonably common all over.Been part of a global religion than arose
with the Atlantean sea borne society that operated from 3000 BC to 1159 BC and
built all the suspect structures solves the issue nicely.

As long as I do not have to go
back much further than 3000 BC we have mountains of evidence of bustling and
changing societies, all plausibly influenced by Atlantean society.

The Alta Plana was a prime source
of both copper and tin ores and that was the core of the then unique Atlantean
economy.The advanced megalithic
technology blend is all part of the cultural complex we are seeing here and in
the Mediterranean.

In general, I have so far found
no reason to reach further back anywhere in time anywhere around the globe.The aptly named Atlantean cultural complex
arose on top of a megalithic stone culture and was driven by a emergent global metal
economy operated through palace factories.It altered every culture it touched by supplying desirable metal trade
goods likely in exchange for slaves and other goods.

Even the gold mines in South Africa
best fit this regime.

It all collapsed in 1159 BC with
the destructive Hekla Eruption which may well have been part of a much larger
break along the mid Atlantic ridge.It
is clear that something bad happened that we would struggle with today.

This article is important because
of the sheer wealth of megalithic rock shaping pictured.Ignore comments on the shaping itself.It was all done the hard way.One callused blow at a time.

Over the past couple of years quite a few members have asked me to do a thread
on Tiahuanaco {Tiwanaku} I've resisted the
idea up till now for a few reasons. I didn't want to simply write a rehash of
the same tired stories, old pictures, references and the ever popular {Aliens
Did It!} excuse. So, I'll attempt to bring a fresh new perspective on this ancient
controversial pre-Colombian Megalithic site.

For the record and to be completely up front: We will not be discussing or
hypothesizes about Tiahuanaco being
constructed by refugees of Atlantis, or Ancient Space Aliens

Sometimes fact is stranger & more
mysterious than fiction

Let us begin...

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The above two images are fairly drastic in
both appearance and context. The upper one is from 1903 when the first real
"Modern" exploration of the area occurred. I said exploration not
excavation. There is a difference IMHO. A realarchaeological excavation
attempts to not only reveal but to put the site in question in it's proper
historical context.

The major issues with Tiahuanaco {Tiwanaku}
and the other closely located and related site of Pumapunku
(Puma Punka) is the age and it's history. So, the big question, just
how old are they? This is an interesting question with no easy answer. Before I
get into the controversy over that aspect let us begin with what the prevailing
paradigm of modern Academia has to say about the site...

The area around Tiahuanaco may have been
inhabited as early as 1500 BC as a small agriculturally-based village. Most
research, though, is based around the Tiwanaku IV and V periods between AD 300
and AD 1000, during which Tiwanaku grew significantly in power. During the time
period between 300 BC and AD 300 Tiwanaku is thought to have been a moral and
cosmological center to which many people made pilgrimages. The ideas of
cosmological prestige are the precursors to Tiwanaku's powerful empire.

Yadda Yadda, Blah Blah Blah...

I'm trying not to use Wikipedia as a source as often as I have in the past but
in this case I've checked out their referenced links and they check out as far
as Modern Academia's Paradigm is concerned. The issue I have with the
"official" story is the time-line and suppositions with which they
use to support it. There has been C-14 dating. 29 such testing of the area if
I'm not mistaken. All coming back with a fairly recent dating of around A.D.
400 to 1200. However, the site had been known for thousands of years to the
indigenous peoples. Now when discussing those people one group in particular
always enters into the topic.

The Inca people began as a tribe of the Killke culture in the Cuzco area around the 12th century AD. Under
the leadership of Manco Cápac, they formed the small city-state of Cuzco (Quechua Qosqo).
The first step in the expansion of the Inca Empire was the defeat of the Hanan
Chankas...

OK

Here we go...

So we know of the Incas and their impressive history and accomplishments from
what the Spanish as well as the physical archeological evidence
tells us. Here in lies where the controversy begins IMO. When the Spanish were
in the New world conquering {Hence the Spanish name of Conquistador} were
looking for and looting peoples and sites of Gold. The story goes as the
Spanish were gallivanting about the countryside searching for treasure they
came across Tiahuanaco. When confronted
with such a site they stopped and asked the Incas if they had built it. The
Incas laughed and said no. They explained that it was from before their
time.

I want to stop here and discuss an often quoted fallacy. At this point it is
widely believed that the Spanish systematically destroyed the site in search of
treasure and to destroy an obviously "Pagen" site. It is widely
accepted they used many of the smaller blocks from the site to build a church
nearby. Now I've read several references that supports this supposed event,
while simultaneously I've also read quite a few other versions and references
that tell us a completely different story. The site/sites in question were
first recorded in written history by Spanish conquistador and self-acclaimed
"first chronicler of the Indies" Pedro Cieza de León. Leon stumbled upon the remains of
Tiwanaku in 1549. It's at this point we need to stop and think long and hard
about the age of the site.

It was already a wreck with massive exquisitely carved megalithic stones
tossed about like some gigantic Lego blocks that had been tossed about and
strewn all over the area by an angry giant. With huge multi-ton carved stones
and slabs strewn about Helter Skelter. The Spanish may have dug around and
possibly moved some of the massive stone slabs and
blocks about but nothing on the scale of the destruction they are often given
credit for. Now the Incas knew of the site as being Ancient even by their
standards. So herein lies the first of many issues with the dating of the site.
So just how old is the site?

What I've found while tooling around online and my local library are many
inconsistencies regarding that question. It is a controversial subject for many
reasons. First off it isn't just the hard to piece together Prehistorical
record but even the post-Colombian/Spanish era is also a bit confusing as
well.

OK.

So the sites in question were ancient by Inca standards, and they used
it for ceremonies because they believed the site to be sacred in doing so
possibly contaminating the site. {Archeologically speaking} Then the Spanish
came along and molested the site further in their search for gold. I want to
take a moment here and give a comparative history of the other recently found
culture civilizations in the area. Caral Supe...

When we stop and look at a comparative time-line between the ancient Egyptians
and the Ancient South American peoples we can find several dramatic parallels.
According to accepted Egyptology Snefru was the first king of the 4th dynasty
(2613 - 2589 BC). He ruled for an estimated 24 years. Now in that very short
period of time he is credited with the construction of not just one but three
pyramids!

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Snefru is credited with building the step pyramid at
Maidum, the Red and Bent Pyramids at Dahshur.

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His son Khufu is the one who built the Great pyramid followed by his
son Kefre who built the second largest pyramid at Giza. Now we are to believe that the Pharaohs
went from building a much lessor quality step pyramid to building a perfect one
in only 45 years?

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Meanwhile, over in Peru
at Caral Supe we find a similar styled and quality construction and or supposed
development in this part of the world. That's supposedly about as far as they
got with no further development and then faded away. Yet, they were just as
active and were Ancient Egypt's
contemporaries..

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Which also included ancient megalithic standing stones.

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Of course, there is no direct connection between Caral Supe and Tiahuanaco. There doesn't appear to be any continuity.
However it might be helpful if we look at the bigger picture of the region. Peru and
bordering countries all seem to be blessed with many ancient sites. Remember,
during the period in question there were no artificial imaginary lines drawn on
a modern day map.

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Now unlike Egypt which was
able to maintain power and control even between upper and lower Egypt.
The area in question does show signs of massive upheaval. It appears that these
ancient people faced a massive cataclysmic destruction of their civilization
and the survivors were forced to begin again. Posnansky thought the Ancient
Bolivian Tiahuanacans were flooded out. Hence the amount of drastic destruction
of their ancient monuments.

Prof. Posnansky summed up his 50 year study in a 4 volume work entitled
Tiahuanaco, The cradle of American Man first published in 1945. He explains his
theories, which are rooted in archeoastronomy, as follows. Since Earth is
tilted on its axis in respect to the plane of the solar system, the resulting
angle is known as the "obliqueness of the ecliptic" (one should not
confuse this with another astronomical phenomenon known as
"Precession", as critics of Posnansky have done). If viewed from the
earth, the planets of our solar system travel across the sky in a line called
the plane of the ecliptic.

At present our earth is tilted at an angle to of 23 degrees and 27 minutes, but
this angle is not constant. The angle oscillates slowly between 22 degrees and
1 minute miminum to an extreme of 24 degrees and 5 minutes. A complete cycle
takes roughly 41,000 years to complete. The alignment of the Kalasasaya temple
depicts a tilt of the earth's axis amounting to 23 degrees, 8 minutes, 48
seconds, which according to astronomers, indicates a date of 15,000 B.C.

Between 1927 and 1930 Prof. Posnansky's conclusions were studied intensively by
a number of authorities. Dr. Hans Ludendorff (Director of the Astronomical
Observatory of Potsdam), Friedrich Becker of the
Specula Vaticana, Prof. Arnold Kohlschutter (astronomer at BonnUniversity),
and Rolf Müller (astronomer of the Institute
of Astrophysics at Potsdam) verified the accuracy of Posnansky's
calculations and vouched for the reliability of his conclusions.

What exactly was Arthur Posnansky looking at? When we turn back the clock and
view the site from his perspective it appears to be a much older megalithic
site. To me it resembled the great standing stones of Europe/UK.

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Now I'm not saying that I agree with the extreme age he came up with. However,
if we look at how the site originally appeared to him and then compare it to
the modern era misrepresentation it's obvious that in the last two hundred
years or so there have been massive amounts of work in it's badly done
excavation, exploration and down right contamination of the site. For this
reason any C-14 dating should be called into question. The site has been picked
at and gone over, gone over and picked at since before the Incas. Not to
mention the Spaniards, then much later when the Bolivian Government attempted
an ill-advised reconstruction attempt all based on pretty much their
imagination as the photos in this thread shows.

Now some of the earliest images we have are from 1877. They show an area in
massive disarray obviously much more than what the Spaniards could have
accomplished. I highly doubt the Spaniards would have dragged massive blocks
and slabs half way up hills and into ravines while looking for gold just for
the hell of it!

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Now for those of us who are more familiar with the site will recognize many of
these resting places for the massive slabs/stones. Many of those massive &
exquisitely carved blocks/slabs still lay where they were back in 1877

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The following two images are some of my favorites. The first is from 1908 the
second is modern times.

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Notice the huge multi-ton block on the hill behind this now famous
statue? We are to believe the Spaniards tore the place apart looking for Gold
and dragged these huge blocks and slabs half way up a hill for no better reason
than to simply reposition them in their searches..

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The argument about it's date seems to be still a matter of interest to many. If
we again look back to 1908 and the following decades worth of horribly
conducted excavations in the area we can immediate tell the site has been
contaminated.

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Now here is another fairly well known statue from the site. Notice something?
No temple complex surrounding
it. As a matter of fact I don't see a single sign of other blocks surrounding
him, Yet in the modern era it is placed and surrounded by what was perceived as
how the site originally looked. All based on what? Also, when the following
images were taken C-14 dating wasn't around yet. So the site IMHO was again
contaminated.

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I wonder if the original placement of the statues and standing stones and
blocks had some sort of astrological alignments? Apparently we will never
know..

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It doesn't take somebody with an engineering degree to see the
contradiction between the modern misrepresentation of how it is believed the
site once looked and the quality of the stones from the still half buried ones.
Here are a few modern images. If you look closely you will spot the original
megalithic standing stones mixed in with the much lower quality blocks from
what I believe to be form a much more recent period.

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Now compare the above travesty to the other nearby site of Puma Punku. In one
location we have what originally looked like a vary ancient megalithic Stonehenge type astronomically aligned site. Then there
appears to be an intermediate period of rough cut stones and construction
followed by expertly cut and engineered gigantic multi-ton blocks and
slabs.

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I'm not sure of the age of the site as per Posnansky and I also call into
question Academia's findings as well. Is it possible that what we are seeing is
the remnants of an ancient peoples who struggled to recover from a massive
environmental, geological upheaval which floundered and eventually made it
resulting in who we know of as the Incas?

Side note. Many of the ceramic/pottery found in the area over the locations
vast history often show races which are not considered endogenous to the
continent. I have another thread in the works about the Olmec of Central America in the works which goes into this
controversial possibility of a prehistoric connection. Stay tuned

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Controversy: Does this carving remind you of Easter
Island?

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Now I know for a fact that many members here at ATS believe in an Ancient Alien
Scenario when discussing the site. This cannot be avoided. I'm still on the
fence. I'll accept Modern Academia's belief in the simple head binding
technique that over the early developmental years of a persons life from that
period would create such oddly misshapen head scenario {For now}

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But....

What happens when a very young child's skeleton is found with an already fully
formed and perfect elongated skull?

There are others (Egyptians included) that used cement to form concrete several
centuries before Christ, and the earliest suspected use of cement to make
concrete was from around 6500 B.C. with the stone-age Syrians.

Either they had their own technology they used (not like ours but something of
their own they figured out and not in the sense of lasers and such, most like
energy and stuff like that), they got some help from ET or we just truly don't
give our ancestors any credit.

We seem to be pretty adaptable and can make all kinds of things with our hands
and our minds. Why couldn't they have done the same thing, even if it is
something we don't understand. I often wonder what they would think of a
building like the EmpireStateBuilding....

When I was in Italy and went
to Pompeii, it
was nothing like I thought and it was 2000 yrs old. I was really impressed at
their building and how they layed everything out. It was beautiful! The houses
that would be considered mansions and manor there were amazing, so much color
and many of the murals on the walls were still there. I tend to think if we
want something we will make it

You need to watch this Video it has great information. If I dont get this video
to work someone please embed for me

6Yet another blockbuster OP. I
had thought the same thing about the duality of the layers, just as I observed
in Macchu Picchu. One can look at it and see 2 different types of architecture
at both sites. I always figured it was a newer civilization that was built upon
what had long been there. As you know, PumaPunku is just as much a
headscratcher as Tiahuanaco. If they were
supposed 'sea ports' then why build seaports over 10 miles from the shore? It
was said that pumapunku showed signs of excavation towards the lake, possibly
because it had retreated from the dock. But that anomoly is also common with
the great causeways of Egypt.
Why build a causeway 8 miles from the Nile? As
with both accounts, the mystery lies within a fabric of other questions.

7In regards to the skulls, one must
check cranial capacity. Even though you reshape a skull it will not affect the
volume. It will be in the volume in which one can decide if these skulls are
off world. Also a DNA check would be even more conclusive. Check out the star
child skull. Lloyd Pye has gotten enough DNA sequencing to establish it as
being off planet.

I assumed he didn't dwell on this because it is in fact not true (again, facts
are appreciated, Slayer.)

The vast majority of stones shown in pics in this thread (and present at both
sites) are Red Sandstone.

There is no Diorite there.

The hard stone present at the site is Andesite.

Diorite, Andesite and Granite are all pretty much the same stone, with slight
differences in formation.

You don't need a harder stone to shape a stone.

Slayer: As an aside,
your comments about "contamination" leading to faulty C14 dates is
outrageously impossible. But no matter.

Also - Posnanski's dating method involved him assuming the positions
of certain structures that were no longer there. That might be okay for a
ballpark figure, but as you yourself noted, the archaeoastronomy used was by
nature extremely succeptible to large errors if the "alignments" were
only a degree or two off (which can easily happen if the structure you're
"aligning" with isn't actually there anymore!)

Another site has been located next to Lake Titicaca
that dates to the same period, BTW.

Harte

9Thanks
for posting about Puma Punku and Tiahuanaco,
When I see those places I cannot believe that they where made 300 AD, I just
can't. The age of those places give the impression of 10,000 to 15,000 years.
In fact this time would be close to the time of that neolithic dig happening
now over in Turkey
at Göbekli Tepe. Where they dated that the massive stone carvings where done
11,500 BC, when we shouldn't have been able to do that according to mainstream
archeologists and anthropologists. In fact we weren't even to have animal
husbandry at that point. I think the reason why the remains of Puma Punku and Tiahuanaco and the other places in the area weren't
completely buried was it's location and the environment. It's at such a high
altitude that Trees don't grow up there in fact what grows is shrubs and
stunted grasses. No how did the Amira indians (who didn't have writing at the
time they said they built them) move these blocks and carved them. I say that
some type of upheaval back around this time threw this and other civilizations
back into their stone age and the survivors had to figure out how to rebuild
again.

Also that is the first time I have ever seen clay figurines and the well done
carvings of faces (and that still gets me thinking, if they where able to carve
to such a degree these facial features why keep the big monuments looking like
some type of mechanical construct. Blocky and devoid of any type of
recognizable human visage). Those faces I don't know if you are aware look
closely like they are more asianic and like the Olmecs look more negro. Also
slayer are you sending out email or notices when you put out a thread anymore,
if not no problem I will just look for your threads in my friend area. And
another thing I remember almost two years ago on one of these threads about the
Inca's and Mayan's that one person commented that in their legend that they
talked about the "walking trees". I've been trying to find out about
this off and on.

10It's
known that the first Natives to South America came from Australia. The Americas appear
to be, quite literally, the dusty corner of the world where everything lost
ends up. Native Americans share genetic information from both Australian
natives, Asians, and Caucasians. And quite a number of cultures in mid-america
look too similar to not be from India.
Of course, how they got there is nobody's knowledge.

1 comment:

francois clermont
said...

you should consider aliens construction with much much more advanced technology for rock cutting and carving specially at Puma Punku and Cusco too many precision near perfection cutting and glassing of stone surfaces , base of many building constructed by megalithic block cut and adjusted mean all block are perfectly square and all surface are parallel and extremely flat , without denying all Inca work with more manageable smaller rock all other rock cutting was done by interstellar civilization with means to cut and transport any size of rock , and adjust them perfectly .

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