Off healing really that big a deal?

Post by Lordplatypus

Really? Yes i know mages can pretty much instaheal with evocation at a caliber that makes hybrids look sad, but that's GC's favorite class and has been OP since day 1.

The problem here is that as every single time, it's a thinly veiled Ret nerf, Retladins have been putting up with the worst nerfs in the entire game, such as removing last word, making WoG a spamfest, forcing every other off healer to be OP, and thus then blank nerf then with ret.

Post by Neffi

Really? Yes i know mages can pretty much instaheal with evocation at a caliber that makes hybrids look sad

Are you expecting such an obvious hyperbole to be taken seriously? Or do you just have no idea how this heal happens?

Evocation baseline = 2 minute cooldown. Most of the heal happens over a long duration, making it easy to mitigate nearly all of the heal by interrupts or CCs. Not to mention a 2 minute cooldown is nothing abnormal for a defensive spell.

Evocation with Invocation = 10 second cooldown, but the heal only happens after a full successful cast so the mage gets no heal at all unless he's allows to freecast the full 6 seconds and complete it without getting interrupted.

If you're allowing any casting class to freecast without attempting to interrupt them, you deserve to get totally smashed. Complaining about one of the riskiest situations of freecasting in the game is just ridiculous.

but that's GC's favorite class and has been OP since day 1.

Ignoring that mages have had more than their share of issues, this is just the same thing people wanted to say about Kalgan and warriors for a while in BC. Then warriors were suddenly not so great at PvP and people totally forgot Kalgan and supposed favoritism.

If you seriously think a develop favors a class that strongly, it doesn't say much about somebody who continues to play a game they feel is so morally objectionable. Why haven't you quit?

Or better yet, go roll a mage and play a few games in their shoes. It's easy to call a class OP when you have no idea what it's like to play that class.

I propose the real problem is very easy to see. You're not so good at PvP. So in between getting blown up by mages (among everyone else) you read the forum and hear complaints about how X is a little too strong. Whining compounds whining and we get people like you blaming the developers for your own shortcomings.

The problem here is that as every single time, it's a thinly veiled Ret nerf, Retladins have been putting up with the worst nerfs in the entire game, such as removing last word, making WoG a spamfest, forcing every other off healer to be OP, and thus then blank nerf then with ret.

Mages have low passive defense. Paladins have high passive defense. Mages rely on control and CCs to stay alive. Comparing a mage's heal which is either at worst high-cooldown medium-risk and at best low-cooldown very-high-risk, to the state of paladins who are designed from exactly the opposite defensive side of the spectrum is useless. The classes are totally non-comparative.

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For a game that has just seen a new expansion which brought new gameplay and fundamental changes to class mechanics, I'm baffled that people are surprised that things are a little out-of-whack the first patch.

Calm your &*!@#ing. If you feel so strongly that this game is such a travesty, quit. The 10-million-strong playerbase won't miss you. But maybe you should take the hint from the millions of other players who continue to play despite a few quirks that your overblown complaining is totally out of proportion with reality.

Post by Lordplatypus

Another hyperdefensive mage, how suprising.

Evocation/Invoke lasts for 6 seconds, long enough to get it off while your oppoent is sheeped, or just can't interupt because said interupt is on cooldown since it was used on either sheep or frost nuke or some other abomination of a spell.

2: The only class that has ever truly dominated and/or been atleast Top tier throughout the game was mage, was mage ever non-viable for DPS? Unlike hunters, mages have no problems between specs, having either pyro or arcane be broken top of the meter, while frost dominates Pvp.

Mages have medium defense, great escaping/mobility absurdly high control Medium-high sustained and ungodly nuke. Paladin has High defense, no Mobility other than run fast, near nonexistant control that relies on already having uptime or needs to be talented to have a respectable cooldown and range and sacrfices their other control to get it. Medium sustained and medium-high burst.

See the so just comparing it to one class, i've produced a fact.

Want more?

Post by superfuntime

lol at this guy ... really go play a mage and see if its easy to land a 6 sec evo , people expect you to try to heal yourself whit that if you get low hp ... it's common sense , this spell is only usefull if you either hide or cc the ennemy , not only cc are breakable , do you use your hand of freedom ? or bubble ? or any stun interupt at all ? then there should be no problem for you to stop a mage from casting , you know i understand how you can get the feeling of getting nerfed just as i get the feeling of getting nerfed when i see that my mage will have -1 sec of deep freeze (making it close to useless unless you use the glyph) frost bomb taking 1 more sec to blow up (giving a little more time for those dispeller out there) and they give us a new glyph that purposly nerf us (it make our bomb and ice lance n stuff hit only aoe in 5 yard instead of 10 for polymorph i guess) so .... yeah i dont see much god mode here considering mage are suppose to be paper tiger , glass canon in other word , and again , you say mage break dps meter in pve , well there some good dps out there and there some less good , i hold around 65k dps as frost mage and my friend was doing 45k before i told him how i play and still then he still do 10k less dps than me ... because i guess i have more experience . you can't go around calling a class op just because your having trouble dealing whit them ... here a very good example of this : once i had a holy paly , in cata time , everytime i was doing 2vs2 arena and i saw the ennemy team had a priest i just left without even trying , why ? cause of mana burn and priest incredible ability to survive if well used , in the end of cata priest was in almost any arena team ,is that op ? well one of my frost dk friend was telling me that when he was timing his ability right , priest was nothing for him , this game wasnt really meant for pvp (even blizzard say it , they also said pvp was the biggest mistake they made because no one is ever happy and its stupidly hard to balance ) so tbh im happy that after a lot of time this game finnaly achiv some kind of pvp balance , maybe would you like to go back in the time people only had to roll blood dk and almost solo entire bg by themself ? i sure dont , how about those rogue that if you let them land first hit you could do nothing but die . i just remembered one funny thing , i was doing dailys and im on a pvp server , i had almost no pvp gear since at first after mop came out i was focusing on clearing faction , then some paly was getting attacked by a shammy and a hunter on my side , so i tell myself : hey why not make an easy 9 honor by helping them , well the paly kited us and ended up beating the 3 of us , ok i had no pvp gear but still ... paly kinda felt op to me after this fight , is paly a op class ? no more than other class , just learn to play it correctly and don't expect to faceroll everything . one thing i learned from this game is when a class is said op everyone switch to that class , just like i seem to see a looooot of warrior these day , just like there was a stupid amount of priest in the end of cata , then explain this : why i dont see mage everywhere ? the reason may be this : when you play one you don't feel op unless you have skill , that can be said whit any class . so stop your crying because your getting nerfed (who isnt ? lets be honest , blizzard spend more time nerfing people than fixing bugs) and instead try to learn way to improve yourself

Post by superfuntime

oh and btw you should try arcane these day , may be kind of fun i guess if you can find 1 fight you dont have to move once , and fire is not for everyone , i hate it and don't play it , it rely too much on luck , losing heating up proc piss me off (yes if you have a fireball casted or living bomb explode but you get no critc out of it and it happen the split second before you hit inferno blast you just end up wasting a inferno blast) so i play frost , i always liked frost since first time i played my mage because it make sense to me , you get ice lance well you have it till the timer hit 0 , and you get decend survivability by kitting in pvp whit a little burst if the planets align correctly lol . i used to like arcane in cata because i could burn down dungeon boss , again timing my stuff correctly , not just blindly hitting one button like brainless drooling kids like saying , but now i hate arcane , it became like a long boring channeling because you cant move or your dps will go down faster than..... than a 25 cent ho .

Post by superfuntime

oh yeah almost forgot , if mage are really blizzard favorite class , then why a class that exist since day 1 still can't blink correectly ? i dont see other class having trouble whit their speed buff , but use a blink when there the most little tiny bump on the ground and either it cut your blink , cancel your blink (appear where you casted) or even worst : blink you backward ! ( yep , dont believe me ? ask any mage to blink on elegon platform ) and its not like blink was a usefull omg i need to gtfo button right ? its the same whit frozen orb and fire orb before it , you just cant cast it if the ground is not perfectly flat or you waste it . so tell me : why blizzard is keeping such old and obvious flaw on his favorite class ?

Post by Lordplatypus

oh yeah almost forgot , if mage are really blizzard favorite class , then why a class that exist since day 1 still can't blink correectly ?

Blink can break just about everything, the teleportation was just tacked on to give it a supposed use.Frost orb i don't even know about, but that still won't make up for A: Your all defending mage, while obivously playing it, and B: Mages have been overpowered too long and you won't say so.

Priest

Sheep

Post by Neffi

Another hyperdefensive mage, how suprising.

I'm a rogue and feral druid. I play mage occasionally here and there (mostly on friends' accounts) but have never had my own top-level mage. I just know the game well. I've been PvPing for over 7 years now.

Evocation/Invoke lasts for 6 seconds, long enough to get it off while your oppoent is sheeped, or just can't interupt because said interupt is on cooldown since it was used on either sheep or frost nuke or some other abomination of a spell.

Lots of other things can be done during CC. That's the point of control. Every single class has crowd control, and a way of "fixing" the battle within its time limits. During a CC Rogues can Premed->Recup->Vanish; any hybrid can hard-heal; warlocks can micromanage health between drains and pet; and even everyone has bandages. That's the point of crowd control, and everyone has it.

That's also why you too have crowd control. And that's why you have a trinket (and from the sound of it you're not timing the use of that trinket properly). And that's why you have other ways besides hard-interrupts to interrupt a spell (CCs, silences).

Not to mention you're promoting a logical fallacy that being able to sheep and then Evocation is an unfair heal, since Polymorph also heals you.

The only class that has ever truly dominated and/or been atleast Top tier throughout the game was mage, was mage ever non-viable for DPS? Unlike hunters, mages have no problems between specs, having either pyro or arcane be broken top of the meter, while frost dominates Pvp.

So I'm guessing you joined during Cataclysm when mages finally got a decent talent setup? Because before that, mages have historically been one of the most problematic PvP classes. They've had a long history of harsh times because of nonexistent defense. It wasn't until Cataclysm that mages were really competitive in PvP.

...

Mages are control-happy and always have been. During the days when mages could not compete in PvP whatsoever, it was still the case. Therefore it does not follow that their control is dominating.

Medium-high sustained and ungodly nuke.

This however is one key issue right now. Their burst setup is just quirky enough that they have an unfair advantage right now. The developers realize this, and nerfs are being put in place (for 5.1) to cancel precisely the type of chain burst that you've probably been the victim of.

Paladin has High defense, no Mobility other than run fast, near nonexistant control that relies on already having uptime or needs to be talented to have a respectable cooldown and range and sacrfices their other control to get it.

If you feel paladins are in a bad place right now, the correct way to approach this matter would be providing constructive feedback as to what's wrong with paladins and how it can be fixed. But you did not do that. Instead, you complained about a class that is by definition your hard-counter: a kiting control freak. Mages are supposed to have an edge over paladins. It's a simple rock-paper-scissor setup that has been working well for over 7 years now.

See the so just comparing it to one class, i've produced a fact.

This really makes me cringe. Let me get technical here. A fact is an event or a property that has been directly observed. Eg, it's a fact that the sky is blue. It's a fact that evolution occurs. It's a fact that the sun is white. It's a fact that Abe Lincoln was assassinated.

What you've presented is an inference, which is totally different from a fact. Also, you're cherry-picking precisely the information which fits your case and ignoring everything else about the game itself, making your presentation, in fact a conjecture.

Want more?

Not really. I suggest you:

Play the game for more than one PvP season.

Get a better grip on the nature of rock-paper-scissor dynamics in WoW's PvP.

Get a better grip on the dynamics of macro- and micro-roles that classes are designed around.

Come to the realization that you're not an expert at WoW.

Come to the obvious realization that WoW is going to be imbalanced immediately following an overhaul of fundamental mechanics, and that balance takes time to achieve.

Pass freshman-year English class and understand semantics and context before trying to argue with an authoritative tone.

Post by Lordplatypus

If you feel paladins are in a bad place right now, the correct way to approach this matter would be providing constructive feedback as to what's wrong with paladins and how it can be fixed. But you did not do that. Instead, you complained about a class that is by definition your hard-counter: a kiting control freak. Mages are supposed to have an edge over paladins. It's a simple rock-paper-scissor setup that has been working well for over 7 years now.

The rock paper scissors line again huh? There is no scissors just melee classes (Rock) and cloth classes (Paper). Period.

I'd like to be able to do something that closes the gap better, and while PoJ has been buffed, it's either PoJ or Long arm now, Back then just about every paladin had both. Two HoF is nice. However using WoG for dps means sacrficing the most useful healing spec ability for off-healing, Eternal flame. hence still need uptime.

So I'm guessing you joined during Cataclysm when mages finally got a decent talent setup? Because before that, mages have historically been one of the most problematic PvP classes. They've had a long history of harsh times because of nonexistent defense. It wasn't until Cataclysm that mages were really competitive in PvP.

Nonexistant defense is exactly what mage defense SHOULD be. If a paladin, warrior or death knight manages to close in and disable you, you should by all means be dead meat, but now with resil, mages can last longer, and i've been getting to suggesting that plate should have increased resil, mail stay as is, leather stay as is, and cloth resil be nerfed.

Not to mention you're promoting a logical fallacy that being able to sheep and then Evocation is an unfair heal, since Polymorph also heals you.

Most melee classes can heal just fine, so a 50/50 deal is rather broken when only one half of the deal gets to call when, has the only damage dealing capacity and so on.

Mages are control-happy and always have been. During the days when mages could not compete in PvP whatsoever, it was still the case. Therefore it does not follow that their control is dominating.

Control is a concept that dominates pvp, a class that specializes in control is henceforth OP.

Post by jefflovealex

Mages have excessive control elements to make up for the fact, if ice barrier goes down and they have no iceblock, they can and are 5 hitted by any burst class.If you're playing a retadin against mages and losing , with the us hand of freedom, pvp trinket and bubble, you're doing something seriously wrong.

Post by bearmug

2: The only class that has ever truly dominated and/or been atleast Top tier throughout the game was mage

You haven't played WoW for long, right?

Post by Neffi

You haven't played WoW for long, right?

Come to think of it, every single class has had a period where they totally dominated in PvP. Likewise every single class has had a period where they were totally noncompetitive. Precisely the sentiments the OP is portraying here can and have repurposed for every other class at some point.

Post by Dilbo

Mages drop fast without their shield...which means that you will want someone who can dispel their buffs with you if your class cannot. If you cannot dispel their shields yourself, you are going to find that they are difficult to kill quickly enough before they kill you.

I play as an enhancement shaman and I have purge glyphed to remove 2 buffs per GCD. I absolutely wreck mages of any spec, moreso now than I did in cata, since frost mages can no longer root with CoC.

If you're running RBGs or 3s, don't underestimate the value of having a skilled enhancement shaman on your team. Their ability to deliver respectable sustained and burst damage combined with relentless dispelling spells doom for most caster classes.

With all the class homogenization going on it's surprising that enh. shaman has such effective team synergy - but at the same time it's disappointing that many people aren't even aware of it.

Post by Lordplatypus

Mages have excessive control elements to make up for the fact, if ice barrier goes down and they have no iceblock, they can and are 5 hitted by any burst class.If you're playing a retadin against mages and losing , with the us hand of freedom, pvp trinket and bubble, you're doing something seriously wrong.

They drop as fast as a feather and theres literally now way to stay on them long enough.

With all the class homogenization going on it's surprising that enh. shaman has such effective team synergy - but at the same time it's disappointing that many people aren't even aware of it.

Each class still brings alot to the table, and i love it whenever one of those mages has their OP shields taken off, OPEN SEASON BOYS! GET YOUR PAINSTICKS!

Come to think of it, every single class has had a period where they totally dominated in PvP. Likewise every single class has had a period where they were totally noncompetitive. Precisely the sentiments the OP is portraying here can and have repurposed for every other class at some point.

Lets take a look here

Warrior-MmmmnopePaladin-Bad GlitchHunter-Instakills with no weakenss, seems legit.Rogue-Mechanics weren't set up right in WoW at that timeMage-GOD MODEDeath Knight-When it's a gimmick class, it's OP, sorta extra pressure to buy expac no?Lock-DEATHCOIL GOD MODEMonk-Not sure yet but touch of death is rather blatant in being OPPriest-uhhhh when? heals are always OP but that can't be put on priestsShaman-Again, when? Other than Wunderstorm that isDruid-Excessive bleeds and freespeed, add in being a tank with the same spec, obivous fixed in mists for the most part, but the harder to interupt heals are still an issue.

Post by cloudp

Come to think of it, every single class has had a period where they totally dominated in PvP. Likewise every single class has had a period where they were totally noncompetitive. Precisely the sentiments the OP is portraying here can and have repurposed for every other class at some point.

Lets take a look here

Warrior-Mmmmnope

Season 4 Resto+Warrior.Season 8 Dispellcleave (Warrior with 2 healers, still able to dish enough damage to be viable in 3v3).

That means they were overpowered during Season 5... once again, proving his point, not denying it.

Lock-DEATHCOIL GOD MODE

Warlocks found a sweet season in Season 2 (or 1?) where DoTs ignored resillience. Affliction/Shadow was terrifying. As during TBC they were hard countered very heavilly by Rogues (A lot of this was on Will of the Forsaken's old form), I'm not sure there was a period they were considered ultra OP.

Monk-Not sure yet but touch of death is rather blatant in being OP

Too soon to tell, I agree there.

Priest-uhhhh when? heals are always OP but that can't be put on priests

Priests, outside AfflicShadow in season 2, were very powerful or very weak, but I don't recall an exact SUPER OP season for them either.

Shaman-Again, when? Other than Wunderstorm that is

Beastcleave, season 6.

Druid-Excessive bleeds and freespeed, add in being a tank with the same spec, obivous fixed in mists for the most part, but the harder to interupt heals are still an issue.

Season 4 Trees being close to unkillable.

And my knowledge is fairilly limited. I was out of the loop for Cataclysm's entire seasons, and I started playing with Season 3 well going underway, and stopped for seasons 6 and 7. I have only superficial knowledge of the seasons I did not play. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable would be able to pinpoint an OP season for almost any spec.

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