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A look at the pic DMan attached made me chuckle. Note the four lockers.Remember the lively debate we had about how many lockers and how many long slings to bring on a climb as the leader?If what is shown indeed becomes common/best practice, DMan's answer of 4 lockers is right on the money!

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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

I never munter, maybe because 98% of my climbing is on doubles. I didn't see where Will mentioned that clipping the anchor as a first piece also doubles the load on that piece IF your system works as intended. The fall past /turn around is a real issue.

In real life I have rarely set up a belay later to be totally surprised there is no jesus piece to protect the belayer. Most of the time you should be able to see the problem coming. Using some rope to get lower off the anchor is OK, assuming a fool proof anchor and enough rope.

On the dike I have belayed off screws down and off to the side of the tat anchor by the rock traverse, and use that gear as protection.

On any unknown ice climb, the leader of the prior pitch can make a belay anchor, clip through it, move up and place a good screw, clip that, lower or climb back to stance and bring 2nd up, using that high screw as a re-direct, problem solved unless your partner is miffed you protected his pitch a bit.

I still do Sleeping Beauty the old school way, in two pitches, 'cause I like the semi hanging belay at the base of tha great white face and crack. Nowadays though, I lead the first pitch, clip through the anchor, move up, place good gear, clip one rope through that and step down. Same idea as ice screw above.

Barring any other solutions and faced with an FF2, I pull up about 25 feet of rope and either tie a loose figure eight on a bight, or a clove, and clip it to myself, at least that way if things go haywire, it keeps the fall to 25 feet. I have never had any problem removing the knot when the time came, but your results may differ.

Tom, of course you are right.. this nonsense about "how " to belay is just that

I love how opinionated climbers are. I think the munter + clove-hitch = the two coolest most versatile knots ever... you can safely climb almost every thing with just these two hitches and 1 or 2 knots... They do things that people drop $100 for (Gri-Gri) or $30 for a PAS.... not saying PAS & GriGri don’t have their place, but you should know, and understand, these two basic knots before getting your first GriGri... (I guess if you are 100% sport climber maybe not)

Personally, I am not sure if mallery is more or less scary with weed!He hates being short-roped I can tell you for sure.

DMan, here's one; if you were to use the Fixed Point belay system, what device would you put in there and how would you orient it? You had mentioned you have never belayed a leader with a Munter. Would you use a Munter with the FP?

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"You have to decide to do a flag, where you can broke your vertebrae or a barn door depending of your pro" - the poster formerly known as Champ

DLottmann

Personally, I am not sure if mallery is more or less scary with weed!He hates being short-roped I can tell you for sure.

DMan, here's one; if you were to use the Fixed Point belay system, what device would you put in there and how would you orient it? You had mentioned you have never belayed a leader with a Munter. Would you use a Munter with the FP?

Is the FPBS what Will was showing in that video? Sorry, I watched it really late at night... it it was I would think the Gri-Gri would work pretty sweet, if care was taken to make sure nothing could prevent it from camming...

I wouldn’t use a munter as I don’t think I could get comfortable trying to keep the brake/load strands parelled to prevent the rope twisting that can happen when they are not...

Whoa! Tomcat sighting. Hi, Tom!(now I've got to watch the vid and see what all the fuss is about.)

I love the Munter, find its braking power more than sufficient, and never would use it for belaying the LEADER as I can barely pay enough attention to make an ATC/Reverso work smoothly. Brilliant for bring up a second, particularly if there's gonna be lots of up and down through the cruxy bits.However, I also like to climb on halfs, so it's often a moot point.

I still do Sleeping Beauty the old school way, in two pitches, 'cause I like the semi hanging belay at the base of tha great white face and crack. Nowadays though, I lead the first pitch, clip through the anchor, move up, place good gear, clip one rope through that and step down. Same idea as ice screw above.

I *think* what luke is saying is depending on which side the leader falls, he rotates his body to that side to keep the belay device oriented in the correct direction. "Hang on left foot" means he pivots on the left foot and rotates the rest of his body to the right. At least that's how I read it.

You understand it correctly, probably had to do it on a climb yourself. Thank you Danf

The discussion about the kind of device that sneoh talk is discuss in the fifth edition of mountaineering and present the theory a lot better than what we can have actually.

The discussion of the video is: Do you want a shorter fall with a pro at the belay and the risk to broke the belay or a longer fall with more chance to keep the belay safe?

In the introduction of the article Will gad said: "Whenever I use a “safety” system I ask what that system is supposed to do, and how well it will do what I want it to do, and what the limitations are."

Will Gad talk about the belay and using a sling as a first piece on the upper protection of the belay. Not knowing the forces generate on the belay in the case of a factor two fall and saying that it is out topic is not knowing what that system is supposed to do and it is poor understanding of how well it will do.

It is basic knowledge, in mountaineering freedom of the hill, to know what happen in the case of a fall and how the protection interact together. I admit that it is more important in trad to know all that theory because some anchor is made with stopper of different size. As we are in the section of trad, I think that the thread of all was Hijack. The hand grip with a munter hitch is not very important and many good climber decide that they prefer a device with more control. But at first you have to know what his the hand grip!!!

I love how opinionated climbers are. I think the munter + clove-hitch = the two coolest most versatile knots ever... you can safely climb almost every thing with just these two hitches and 1 or 2 knots...

No arguments there! Two very important knots, easy to tie, and versatile in their applications. If you really want to start controversy over knots and hitches, you'd have to bring up the EDK and double bowline.

not saying PAS & GriGri don’t have their place, but you should know, and understand, these two basic knots before getting your first GriGri... (I guess if you are 100% sport climber maybe not)

Forgive me for going a little off the topic of the thread, but whenever someone mentions the PAS, I get all frothy. I think the place for the PAS is at the store, on the shelf, unsold. :-) I like the GriGri, since it keeps my hands from getting exhausted while folks work a route (the best and only real feature of this device, IMO, is that it saves fatigue). But the PAS? Good lord. The epitome of an unneeded gadget. Ugh. Even a 100% sport climber has better options than this heavy piece of junk!

DLottmann

If you really want to start controversy over knots and hitches, you'd have to bring up the EDK and double bowline.

... Even a 100% sport climber has better options than this heavy piece of junk (GriGri)!

LOL, I though we all agreed the EDK is awesome now...

Yup, that double bowline as a tie in still sucks...

Since I am not a sport climber what are some of the better options to the PAS? I would never own one, but I could see it being helpful in a place like Rumney to clean your anchor before moving on... Way expensive for such a specialized item that does nothing else well and definitely shouldn’t be with you for long trad climbs IMO...

Since I am not a sport climber what are some of the better options to the PAS? I would never own one, but I could see it being helpful in a place like Rumney to clean your anchor before moving on... Way expensive for such a specialized item that does nothing else well and definitely shouldn’t be with you for long trad climbs IMO...

When possible, clipping in with the rope itself is my preference. And you're right: that's not always reasonable on 1 pitch sport routes.

If I'm going to carry a specialty piece of gear to clean anchors, I prefer a dynamic lanyard. I have one of these and like it a lot: http://www.mec.ca/product/5015-866/beal-dynaconnexion/ It weighs about the same as a PAS and won't break your back if you do something dangerous like climb above your anchor and slip off. Beal also makes one that has a Y shape that is more ideal for clipping in to two-bolt anchors.

It's not perfect: it's still expensive and specialized, and probably has no place in your pack on a long trad climb or anywhere where the rope itself works better.

And yes, you're right that calling the PAS a heavy piece of junk is unfair when I usually have a GriGri in my pack and the alternative weighs about the same. But, you know, it's an easy out and I took it!