Honestly, I hear this idea being thrown around so much. There was even an article on CNN talking about how only idiots believe in religion and that the world would be so much better if nobody believed in G-d.

I find this insulting on two accounts: First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell? Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians? Why not Jews too? We believe in the same thing, (albeit they wrote up a sequel) so why call out Jews on our supposed idiocy in believing in religion? If someone took a break from calling Christianity stupid and started shouting out how stupid Judaism is, people would shout "anti-Semitism!" and rightly so.

I can truly understand why some are mad at religion. It was technically religion that started the Crusades, 9/11, and crucifixion. There are are a lot of religious tribal conflicts which spark violence across the world.

But those are religious extremists. Those who overanalyze scripture will inevitably take it too far. And while it isn't good to follow the rules of scripture and only scripture, religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well. It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times. As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote:
What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians?

I think it probably has something to do with their prevalence and influence in Western society. A lot of people are bitter about the things Christians do or try to do. anti gay marriage movement, anti abortion movement, anti stem cell research movement, trying to have creationism taught in schools, etc.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Christianity or any other religion as a whole, or at least not all religious people. Most of my dad's side of my family is Irish Catholic, and they're all very nice people. And my grandma on my mom's side is a devout baptist and I'm fond of her as well.

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote:
I can truly understand why some are mad at religion. It was technically religion that started the Crusades, 9/11, and crucifixion.

Crucifixion wasn't done for religious purposes. It was done for political reasons. Jesus wasn't even the only person crucified in the Bible, David for example crucified all of Saul's sons so he would be the undisputed leader of Israel (yah the Bible is kind of full of assholes like that, which is part of the reason people argue it's barbaric).

There are are a lot of religious tribal conflicts which spark violence across the world.

I can't think of many tribal religious disputes, it's usually some tribes adopt a branch of a major religion and come into conflict like in Iraq. But in terms of religions exclusive to a tribe they tend to be more or less accepting of other religions or at least not sure what to make of them. They don't tend to put much thought into other religions and since they tend to be polytheistic don't really care if there are other gods since it doesn't contradict their own religion.

But those are religious extremists. Those who overanalyze scripture will inevitably take it too far. And while it isn't good to follow the rules of scripture and only scripture, religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well. It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times. As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

I my opinion religious extremists have a point. Religion has just become so trivial in Western Society that it's not strictly adhered to very often and when it is people are looked at as insane. But logically if religion is the most important thing in your life (which going by what religion is, it should be) then why are people so willing to give up aspects of their religion in order to conform with new developments? For example there are Catholics who don't care what the Pope says and go off and take Birth control pills. This is usually said to deflect prejudice against Catholics when the Pope does something insane. But this misses the point, if you don't care what the Pope says then you're not really a Catholic? There's no reason to be one if you don't care what the Pope says. After all hundreds of years ago you would start your own church if you wanted to do disagree with the pope.

And this becomes the overarching problem, religious moderates try to negate parts of the Bible in Christianity because they're incompatible with modernity. For example you can't have slaves. You're also supposed to love God instead of fearing him. They claim parts of the Bible is metaphor, but this opens up a dangerous Precedent one that the Catholic Church knew would be harmful had it been set, if one part of the Bible is a metaphor, what parts of the Bible are not? What you're essentially doing is trying to have your cake and eat it too (that saying is kind of dumb though), trying to have all the benefits of the religion without any of the costs or the strict obedience. As though your god changed over the years to conform to modern beliefs and values. This is why i think Fundamentalists are standing in the most logical position in terms of religion, they have principles, their religion told them something thousands of years ago and it hasn't changed so why should they change their beliefs and worship?

"If you don't mind smelling like peanut butter for two or three days, peanut butter is darn good shaving cream.
" - Barry Goldwater.

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote:
What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians?

I think it probably has something to do with their prevalence and influence in Western society. A lot of people are bitter about the things Christians do or try to do. anti gay marriage movement, anti abortion movement, anti stem cell research movement, trying to have creationism taught in schools, etc.

This is all of it right here. If Christians could just leave well enough alone and stop trying to use religion to justify laws and policy then people wouldn't have a problem with them like they do now. But do to the fact that American politics is all about pandering to the religious many people resent them because of that.

First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell?

One it true, the other is false.
See the difference?

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians.

No. All religions are stupid. There's regular attacks on all of it.
Ever heard of draw Mohammed day? Or Scientology? Or Mormons?

But those are religious extremists.

Except they aren't.
Go to any country where the religious powers haven't been kicked out, you'll find literally millions of people who have no problems with stoning women to death, abusing kids and being insane violent psychopaths.
All throughout history, your so-called "extremists" have been in power, reprensenting the majority of their religion.

Heck, the majority of Christians in America don't accept the theory of evolution. That's millions of people who are definitely 100% stupid.

Since when did ever that have any bearing on an emotional issue? If you have ever spent time with a girlfriend or wife you would very clearly know that being right doesn't make you right when it comes to emotional issues. Religion is an emotional issue (meaning that religion exists almost entirely within the realm of emotion, not logic).

Except they aren't.

Yes they are.

Go to any country where the religious powers haven't been kicked out, you'll find literally millions of people who have no problems with stoning women to death, abusing kids and being insane violent psychopaths.

And numerous atheists have no problems with executing criminals here either. There are atheist pedophiles as well. There are insanely violent atheists. So, in the end, ALL ATHEISTS ARE EXTREMIST, as per Pox.

All throughout history, your so-called "extremists" have been in power, reprensenting the majority of their religion.

Th extremists are in power precisely because they're extreme. They're willing to do things regular people are not in order to gain and hold power.

Heck, the majority of Christians in America don't accept the theory of evolution. That's millions of people who are definitely 100% stupid.

Those polls have been shown to be skewed. If only 48% of the evangelicals believe the Bible is ultimate truth (and they're far higher than any other Judeo Christian religion), how could more than half believe genesis is the ultimate truth? I'll trust the poll taken by a religious group, who would have no benefit it showing less support for religion, over a secular group who would benefit in showing too much support for religion.

And numerous atheists have no problems with executing criminals here either.

Being an atheist isn't a belief.
You can't compare "being an atheist" with "being religious".

It's like comparing "playing a sport" with "not being in a book club". It doesn't make sense.

An atheist could literally believe or do anything.

But statistically speaking, they are better people in just about every way, if you want to waste your time caring about that.

The real issue is that religion is false. No amount of saying atheists do this or that can change it.

Th extremists are in power precisely because they're extreme. They're willing to do things regular people are not in order to gain and hold power.

What's an extremist? It's someone who is extreme. Outside of the norm. When you're in power and you have millions of people backing you up, you're not an "extremist".

If you read the quran for instance, it says the penalty for leaving the religion is death. It says that. It's not unclear or a mistake.

Why would you think it's extreme to follow that if you're a muslim?

Those polls have been shown to be skewed.

Dude it's like EVERY SINGLE POLL.
You can't find a poll that doesn't say at least a nice 30+% of Americans reject evolution.

Why would you even think religious polls would show MORE acceptance of it? Lol. They're the ones rejecting it in the first place, if they ever polled people, they'd want to show that more Americans agree with them, because that's how they think "If more people are with me, then I must be correct!".

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote:
Honestly, I hear this idea being thrown around so much. There was even an article on CNN talking about how only idiots believe in religion and that the world would be so much better if nobody believed in God.

;;;
Once again the same damn problem ....people completely incapable of grasping the concept , YOU DON"T HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A RELIGIOUS CULT to believe in a higher power , which for this reply lets call it God, ( because its easy to spell )

Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

;;;
I have yet to meet an atheist who has looked down their nose at me, or refused to marry me is another example, because I am not a believer in any organized religious group & refused to join. Yet I have not only personally been exposed to negativity because these so called peaceful people of god take exception to my refusal to accept their religious bullshit.

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians? Why not Jews too?

I have been perfectly happy to call Jews, Muslims, Mormans, Jehova's, Harikirshna's, my own mother on their cultist activities & my disagreement with same.

I can truly understand why some are mad at religion.

I am not even slightly mad at religion , its the lost, mind twisted members of the cults that I take exception to !
I have gone so far as to put Pastafarian on employment documents & that I am a member of the church of the F.S.M. to simply point out how stupid religion is although this isn't just stupid this is more wrongness & IMo screws with society by allowing religious people to discriminate with government sanction !http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/antigay-righ ts-to-stay-20130115-2crma.html

religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well.

;;;; Ah yes ... treating others well , as long as they don't believe in a differnet all powerful invisible unprovable figment of the imagination than we "TRUE BELIEVERS" do.
THen baby all bets are off , & killing them , enslaving them, denying them even 'human status' is fine !

As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

;;;;
Perhaps its not 'stupid' but you know what it really is, its fucking arrogant !
Its the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or put forward that your religious beliefs & your god is & has to be the one & only god !
That no other religious group or no other religion presently in practice or the many ancient ones that are now defunct & only You & your religion has got it right.

And that my friend is Damn Wrong & Nothing that IS WRONG, can every be truely Right ...how can something be right when its flawed & has wrongness in its very makeup ? ? ?

Those who have only the religious opinions of others in their head & worship them. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either-More

At 1/16/13 03:00 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
Once again the same damn problem ....people completely incapable of grasping the concept , YOU DON"T HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A RELIGIOUS CULT to believe in a higher power , which for this reply lets call it God, ( because its easy to spell )

Refer to it as god with a lowercase and it means god as the regular noun, not God as the proper noun.

A larger number, and constantly growing, number of what the anti-religious villify as 'religious' are exactly this. Sure, they go to a church a handful of times a year, but in reality, they practices their beliefs as they wish. The mere indentification with a religion does not make one lock step with the religion, or a suicide bomber as Pox so wishes to believe.

I have yet to meet an atheist who has looked down their nose at me,

fdbs, meet Pox.

Yet I have not only personally been exposed to negativity because these so called peaceful people of god take exception to my refusal to accept their religious bullshit.

Perhaps you need to find new friends. I have met a ton more religious people who couldn't give a third of a shit about what I believe than those who cared, let alone those who acted differently because of it.

Also, have you ever wondered that maybe it isn't the religion that gets them riled up, but rather the general assholery that comes off when an atheist tries to convert a religious person? Think of it this way: don't you hate when a religious person ridicules you for your beliefs? Don't you hate it when they try to get you to go to church? So why do so many atheists think it;s A-OK for an Atheist to dothe exact same thing?

What annoys me about vocal atheists is the massive hypocrisy. They shame religions for shaming religions. They try to convert the religious because the religious try to convert others. They are rude to the religious because the religious are rude to the others. They join a religion in order to be anti-religious. To an outsider (one who is neither religious nor atheist) atheists act exactly like those they abhorr. Yet they somehow think that they have the high road and thus have earned the right to do this.

I have been perfectly happy to call Jews, Muslims, Mormans, Jehova's, Harikirshna's, my own mother on their cultist activities & my disagreement with same.

And this is exactly why you are no different than they are.

;;;; Ah yes ... treating others well , as long as they don't believe in a differnet all powerful invisible unprovable figment of the imagination than we "TRUE BELIEVERS" do.

You're mixing someone being an asshole with someone being religious. Again, I think you need a new set of people around you. Sounds like you're just around a bunch of jerks who use religious to cover the fact that they are morally corrupt.

The huge super majority of religious people I have met treat all with kindness regardless of their religion.

Perhaps the glee you come off telling others their life is wrong and everything they rest their emotions and life upon is not only wrong but stupid; perhaps that is why relgious people treat you poorly. You're trying to catch bees with a knife when we all know it's easier to catch bees with honey. The next relifious person you meet, try not telling them how wrong they are (you know, use simple kindness) and see how nicely they treat you.

Perhaps its not 'stupid' but you know what it really is, its fucking arrogant !

Hello pot, meet mr. Ebony Kettle.

Its the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or put forward that your religious beliefs & your god is & has to be the one & only god !

Fixed to read: It's the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or to put forward that your religious belief in the lack of god has to be the only way a person can live without being a retard.

And that my friend is Damn Wrong & Nothing that IS WRONG, can every be truely Right ...how can something be right when its flawed & has wrongness in its very makeup ? ? ?

Like the whole point of atheism being more religious than the religious? That's wrong? How can ahteism be so right when that is so wrong?

At 1/16/13 03:00 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
Its the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or put forward that your religious beliefs & your god is & has to be the one & only god !

Fixed to read: It's the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or to put forward that your religious belief in the lack of god has to be the only way a person can live without being a retard.

;;;
As usual Camaro you read into it & twist it the best way you know how.
Its all you got pick apart someone else even when you are 150% wrong about all of it.
But you obviously missed the I'm not an atheist or even agnostic.
I do believe in a higher power, I just know fer sure, no religious cult has figured it out .

And that my friend is Damn Wrong & Nothing that IS WRONG, can every be truely Right ...how can something be right when its flawed & has wrongness in its very makeup ? ? ?

Like the whole point of atheism being more religious than the religious? That's wrong? How can ahteism be so right when that is so wrong?

It's as if atheists have never heard of the term "live and let live".

Again & again , you are incapable of grasping &/or you confuse having no religious affilitation meaning then one must be an atheist , how very judgemental of you ... & hopefully the sarcasm on the 'mental' is shining through !

Another thing thats a for sure ...if there is a god, humans don't ever have to worry about it ever paying any attention to any of us here, or to this insignificant dust particle we call a planet !

Those who have only the religious opinions of others in their head & worship them. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either-More

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote:
Honestly, I hear this idea being thrown around so much. There was even an article on CNN talking about how only idiots believe in religion and that the world would be so much better if nobody believed in G-d.

I find this insulting on two accounts: First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell? Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

I'll agree with this. I personally agree with the topic title and while I have my own spiritual beliefs, I don't subscribe to any form of organized religion. More importantly, though, I keep my religious beliefs to myself. Just because I believe a certain way that others don't doesn't make their beliefs necessarily wrong, just necessarily different than mine. This is neither good nor bad, and I endeavor to show my understanding of that premise by not attacking people based on their religion, although I will criticize religious bodies when they act in a way that is contrary to their stated principles.

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians? Why not Jews too? We believe in the same thing, (albeit they wrote up a sequel) so why call out Jews on our supposed idiocy in believing in religion? If someone took a break from calling Christianity stupid and started shouting out how stupid Judaism is, people would shout "anti-Semitism!" and rightly so.

I can truly understand why some are mad at religion. It was technically religion that started the Crusades, 9/11, and crucifixion. There are are a lot of religious tribal conflicts which spark violence across the world.

But those are religious extremists.

I can't speak for other religions, but I know in Christianity there is a verse where God essentially says that if you don't follow the exact letter of his teachings, you are in violation of the pact he made with Adam and thus not deserving of God's grace, which pretty much includes every Christian alive today.

Those who overanalyze scripture will inevitably take it too far. And while it isn't good to follow the rules of scripture and only scripture, religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well. It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times. As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

Well, first off, let's separate out the "basic moralities" argument, because there are dozens of secular systems that feature many of the same moral beliefs that we credit Christianity with. These basic moralities aren't exclusively offered by religion, so the idea we need religion to have these basic moral truths in our society is fallacial.

Now, given the way religion is used in our civilization (worldwide), I would have to argue that religion is stupid in its current context, especially when you have religiously driven governments in conflict with each other with the potential for all-out war developing featuring nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. Religion as it is used in some parts of the planet is not only stupid, it's inherently dangerous as it may be the tool with which we unmake our civilization.

I find this insulting on two accounts: First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell?

The people decrying the evils of religion actually have proof and valid reasoning. The evangelicals make shit up using the Bible or any other outdated traditional belief used for moral reasoning.

Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians?

Because America (upon other western nations) are predominantly Christian. It only makes sense that they are speaking to the major target audience. If they were raised in Muslim countries they would speak against Islam.

Why not Jews too? We believe in the same thing, (albeit they wrote up a sequel) so why call out Jews on our supposed idiocy in believing in religion? If someone took a break from calling Christianity stupid and started shouting out how stupid Judaism is, people would shout "anti-Semitism!" and rightly so.

You are trying to make it sound like "anti-religious zealots" are only targeting Christianity and they don't believe that other religions are stupid as well. Most "anti-religious zealots" speak against religion in general, not just Christianity. Christianity is only an example religion, you could replace Christianity with any other religion and still get the concept of their messages.

I can truly understand why some are mad at religion. It was technically religion that started the Crusades, 9/11, and crucifixion. There are are a lot of religious tribal conflicts which spark violence across the world.

Religion was a factor in the Crusades and all those other things. Even I, a person who is against religion, won't say that it was the thing that started the whole mess, or imply that it was the only thing.

But those are religious extremists. Those who overanalyze scripture will inevitably take it too far.

One can argue that they did not over-analyze scripture, rather modern day Christians (and other religious practitioners) under-analyze scripture and take things more metaphorically. But even then, there are only supposed to be a few extremists from a supposedly benevolent force that guides peoples' liver. However, history has shown us that there have been millions of extremists living far and wide, some being just ordinary people living in farms. One can also argue that it's still religion's fault that people become extremists because religion tells people that they cannot doubt or question scripture, that they should follow the strict word of God. When anyone follows a belief without the slightest appropriate skepticism, whether it be religion or secular ethical codes, they are more likely to become stubborn. Stubborn people using religion zealously will ultimately become extremists and so we can still point to religion as being a factor in all of this.

And while it isn't good to follow the rules of scripture and only scripture,

Why not? If scripture is the inerrant word of God and if there are hundreds upon thousands of ethical codes inscribed for practitioners demonstrating moral values and concerns, why shouldn't anyone just study scripture and that's it? It would only make sense that God already has every ethic planned for us thus making experience and other morals you learn in life redundant. Unless if you're saying that scripture is imperfect, which is a huge flaw in my opinion.

religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well.

Basic moralities? You mean like "hey don't murder people, okay?" You mean morals that could be learned by any sane human being on earth without the assistance of traditional beliefs, ancient stories, archaic moral guidelines, practice of prayer and subordination? Okay, sure. Religion has a few kernels of common sense morality but that doesn't excuse the fact that it preaches age-old lies, fairy tales, unsupported and irrational philosophy, discrimination, and other impractical things that general religion contains.

It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-

First of all, this is a discussion about religion, not the belief in God. Believe it or not, those are two different concepts entirely. You could believe in a God, but reject religion (deism) or not know if a God exists or not and still deride religion. You don't need religion to believe in a God.

Second, no belief is ever rational if it relies on faith and is devoid of any empirical data or proper logical reasoning. If you belief in God because of your "gut feeling" or because it makes you feel happier about your life and mortality, you have stepped out of the realm of logic, since the existence of God cannot be proved. I'm not going to say that you're a bad person for believing in God, but that belief alone basically goes against the very definition of rationality.

all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times.

So what? What does this justify?

As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

You see, "stupid" is not really the appropriate term that should be associated with religion. I would go more for "scam-related" or "unnecessary" but "stupid" should be reserved for the religious extremists you mentioned earlier. Stupidity is more of a human characteristic.

Even the most righteous, logically sound individuals are subject to poor reasoning skills and deluded mindsets.

At 1/16/13 08:48 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
you confuse having no religious affilitation meaning then one must be an atheist , how very judgemental of you

I thought you said were atheist a while. It's more likely I am mixing you up with what others have said because you were exuding the same attitude those people had.

Either way, my point stands. The best way to get religious folk to not look down on you is to leave them alone about their religion. The fact you said you were happy to point out their flaws and the glee I could see in your writing about how they were wrong made me, most likely rightfully so, believe that you were one who loves to confront others about their religion and generally sets a negative tone for such encounters, thus deserving the treatment.

Your response here has yet to dispel that aura you gave off.

Another thing thats a for sure ...if there is a god, humans don't ever have to worry about it ever paying any attention to any of us here, or to this insignificant dust particle we call a planet !

We still have to live here. It may be the lead up to an eternity of whatever afterward, but we still spend the entirety of our lives here, and we should still do our best to ensure that we keep this place as best we can for those around us now and those who come afterward.

At 1/16/13 01:27 PM, Camarohusky wrote:
Religion is an emotional issue (meaning that religion exists almost entirely within the realm of emotion, not logic).

Oh yeah totally. The issue of 'is Jesus the son of God' is a matter of emotion, not facts! Although the statement 'Jesus was born of a virgin' totally sounds like a statement of fact, it is actually just an expression of emotion!

At 1/17/13 07:22 AM, Earfetish wrote:
Oh yeah totally. The issue of 'is Jesus the son of God' is a matter of emotion, not facts! Although the statement 'Jesus was born of a virgin' totally sounds like a statement of fact, it is actually just an expression of emotion!

You don't get it. You just don't.

You're trying to make your crying wife/grilfriend feel better by telling her how to solve her problem. (If you don't understand how this analogy applies you'll never understand why religion exists and why it actually is a good thing.)

Religion is an emotional issue in that religion is meant to fill an emotional need. I know it's hard for some to understand but humans have emotions and those emotions are expressed in a variety of ways and satiated in others.

What a load of horseshit

The only horeshit here is the idea of correctness having any bearing on how religion affects people's lives.

Those who claim to be not religious are sure as hell masters of puffery when it comes to open mindedness...

At 1/17/13 10:08 AM, Camarohusky wrote:
Those who claim to be not religious are sure as hell masters of puffery when it comes to open mindedness...

"While it is good to be open-minded, you don't want to be so open-minded that your brain falls out."
- someone smarter than me

Yes you could say 'your dog has gone to heaven' or 'God cares for you' when your gf is crying, but it is a load of irrelevance and has absolutely no baring on organised religion. I'm not close-minded - I read the New Testament on the toilet. Judas either throws his silver pieces on the floor and hangs himself in Matthew, or he uses them to buy a field and dies while he's ploughing it in Acts. Believing in the NT when it contains internal contradictions is too open-minded, and the statement 'Jesus died for your sins' is (allegedly) a statement of fact and should be treated as such. Saying the argument 'is emotional' is just shutting down debate.

At 1/16/13 08:48 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
you confuse having no religious affilitation meaning then one must be an atheist , how very judgemental of you

Either way, my point stands. The best way to get religious folk to not look down on you is to leave them alone about their religion. The fact you said you were happy to point out their flaws and the glee I could see in your writing about how they were wrong made me, most likely rightfully so, believe that you were one who loves to confront others about their religion and generally sets a negative tone for such encounters, thus deserving the treatment.

;;;;
You couldn't be further from the target if you turned around & looked behind yourself !
;;;
First off I have NEVER not even once, knocked on someones door to talk to them about my religious beliefs. Yet when I lived in the city , I had mormon's & jehova's do that to me many times .
Instead of telling them to piss off or refusing to speak to them or any other rude or ignorant act , I was polite & when they offered to share their views I invited them in & listened to their side & then stated my side.
Secondly I get no glee from any of this, it saddens me too much to be able to find anything in it to be happy about it. My own mother an elder in her church, is/has been taken advantage of & when I have pointed it out over the years. I used to get such a cold shoulder or even worse, now lately my Mum has actually agreed that -quote- "there has been some times where the 'people' in charge sometimes expect to much & put their priorities in front of mine without asking" -unquote
Third my exwife & I were getting married a number of years ago, she wanted a religious ceremony ... my mother certainly did, so did hers. But the minister of my mums church refused to marry us, because I wasn't a practicing member of the United Church of Canada. THat her mother , herself & my mother were, didn't make a difference to this minister (who I had gone to school with & knew for almost 20 years) she wanted me to take "education classes" first.
Ya ...right, like its going to make a difference when all the church I was forced into as a kid didn't do anything but convince me all religions are cults. All religions are flawed.
I got married in a civil ceremony, I would have been happier to have had a voodoo ceremony or even better a Rastafarian ceremony. But I don't even know if there is such a thing available in Nova Scotia ... but for the Rasta's at least the ganja part would have been fun !

THat millions of people waste so much of their lives & all for the so called 'promise of reward' AFTER YER DEAD ....but give us your time, your money, & do as we say & you'll be rewarded in the after life !
I get no glee or any happiness knowing that this is all bullshit.

Finally have you ever bothered to speak to your clergyman/woman & ask them exactly what happens to you in heaven ? They don't have any answers. They don't know anymore about it than youor I or anyone else reading this right now.

They haven't got a clue, about what happens next. All they have is fleece you now & in allowing them to do so NOW .... You'll be rewarded in the afterlife ...that we know nothing about !

And I have absolutely no problem pointing that out at every opportunity .

Those who have only the religious opinions of others in their head & worship them. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either-More

Being an atheist isn't a belief.
You can't compare "being an atheist" with "being religious".

you're so blind you don't even notice. it IS the same thing. a lack of belief is still a belief. I don't believe Santa Claus exists. I believe Santa Claus doesn't exist. same thing. But of course, arrogant fools like yourself like to believe you sit on a pedestal, looking down on the ignorant masses, when in face, you're in the crowd below/ you believe god does not exist, therefore, it IS a belief.

An atheist could literally believe or do anything.

An atheist cannot believe in a deity. , or else he would not be an atheist.

But statistically speaking, they are better people in just about every way, if you want to waste your time caring about that.

If you say so. Keep believing that.

The real issue is that religion is false. No amount of saying atheists do this or that can change it.

you make the claim. now prove it. oh, that's right. you can't. last time you tried, you basically called the other person an idiot for doubting you. something about square pegs and round holes. You have beliefs you can't back up so you have to attack the other person and shout them down, kinda like Bill O'Reilly does pretty often when the other person doesn't just give in to him. about the only thing you got is "you ever see god? no? then you're a moron for believing, now stop believing!"

you're so blind you don't even notice. it IS the same thing. a lack of belief is still a belief.

The distinction between not believing in a thing and believing a thing doesn't exist has been made to you probably dozens of times already over the years and for some reason you willingly refuse to acknowledge it. Or maybe you aren't able to.

Who knows.

An atheist could literally believe or do anything.

An atheist cannot believe in a deity. , or else he would not be an atheist.

The only thing I can think of that religious people do slightly better at is charity.

The real issue is that religion is false. No amount of saying atheists do this or that can change it.

you make the claim. now prove it.

Prove that religion is made up?

Well by your standards of proof, it's impossible, but that's why people call you an idiot. That's why, if you were to be logically consistant, you'd go around saying there's no such thing as horses and that evolution is a fairy tale because we don't have a 5 billion year old movie featuring the lives of every single animal from you all the way back to simple chains of chemicals.

By anyone's rational and reasonable standards for evidence, religious are obviously man-made for multiple reasons I won't waste my time going into now. Suffice to say that you could watch any Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins debate on it and know 20 reasons in one hour.

Firstly, In my timezone it is late at night. so this post is to bookmark the thread until I can continue in the morning.
Secondly, I'm speaking as a practicing Christian

I think the problem is linked to culture, politics and to some degree race. Christianity was adopted in places like America, where Western culture is also predominant. but the conflict comes because this culture is kinda irresponsible (I get that responsibility can be a burden) and self-centred. So they expect others to conform to the laws of Christianity, but not themselves. this is hypocritical and so hated. If many Christians actually practiced/applied core principles of their religion, they would be more productive and less targeted. Principles such as love, forgiveness, reconciliation, etc. but this contradicts mainstream ideas like retaliation or vengeance. What I'm basically saying is that, while Christians may seem too strong-willed for their own good, they are actually too weak/shallow.

At 1/17/13 10:41 AM, Earfetish wrote:
Saying the argument 'is emotional' is just shutting down debate.

Not at all. It's steering the debate in the right direction. Just as you can't solve your wife's emotional problem by trying to fix it, you can;'t understand an emotional connection or need using pure logic. The biggest problem I see here is that people seem to be judging the entire merits of religion on the mythology. You know what I say to that? Fuck the mythology. The mythology only makes up a very small part of the actualy user experience when it comes to religion. Most religious people know that the stories are suspect and better serve as fables. The mythology and dogma almost always takes a back seat to the guidance, community, and fulfilment that religion provides. People don;t join religions because they want to believe fantastic stories. They join religions because they have emotional needs that religion helps fill. Religion provides a community. Religion provides a simple and preset list of morals and rules. Most important of all, religion provides comfort to peoples lives when nothing else can. This is why I defend religion, not because of whether it is correct or not, but because it helps people.

And as was pointed out above, religion is a tool, and it is most often used for good, and only occasionally used for bad. When it is used for bad it is nothing more than a conduit for a pre-existing negative outlook (think violent video games and shootings).

@ dbs
I realize that reading emotion through a screen is difficult, but I feel genuinely sorry for what happened. Y'know humans in general range from well-intentioned to backstabbing maggots and any division of human is no exception, even religion. It's easier to write off humanity as a whole rather than a small target of people. You're probably not gonna like this, but it was mentioned by Theburningliberal in the thread that:
[everyone is] not deserving of God's grace, which pretty much includes every Christian alive today.

this may be why atheism has so much appeal: it presents itself is a fortress that guards you against people. In essence what Cam is saying holds truth in that it placates some emotional need. But it is just another division of people, complete with well-intentioned to backstabbing maggots.

This may be the answer the original poster was looking for. Atheists attack Christians because they feel wronged or hurt and so it is internally justified as retaliation, but externally presented as pointing out a flaw.

@dbs
I feel you deserve an apology so I apologise on behalf of the minister. What he did was wrong and this is what happens when you try to make a religion into a corporation.

The distinction between not believing in a thing and believing a thing doesn't exist has been made to you probably dozens of times already over the years and for some reason you willingly refuse to acknowledge it. Or maybe you aren't able to.

Who knows.

actually, you're the one unable to make a distinction. or for lack of a better term, a lack of distinction. what's the difference between you saying "if you believe in religion, you're retarded!" and "if you don't believe in X religion, this happens!"

nothing. both people effectively shut out everyone else and

An atheist could literally believe or do anything.

An atheist cannot believe in a deity. , or else he would not be an atheist.

The only thing I can think of that religious people do slightly better at is charity.

just imagine all the religious charities going away. that would be bad.

Prove that religion is made up?

Well by your standards of proof, it's impossible,

there you go.

but that's why people call you an idiot.

thats because they have nothing to fall on. If you say the existence of god is very unlikely, i'll give you that much.

That's why, if you were to be logically consistant, you'd go around saying there's no such thing as horses and that evolution is a fairy tale because we don't have a 5 billion year old movie featuring the lives of every single animal from you all the way back to simple chains of chemicals.

I never said I don't believe in evolution. Granted, a lot of people who are religious are stupid... incredibly stupid. but then again a lot of atheists are just as stupid, just in different ways. Being an atheist doesn't make you smart.

By anyone's rational and reasonable standards for evidence, religious are obviously man-made for multiple reasons I won't waste my time going into now. Suffice to say that you could watch any Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins debate on it and know 20 reasons in one hour.

rational and reasonable, perhaps. but humans are not rational, nor are they reasonable beasts. If they were we wouldn't have half the problems we do today.

Just as you can't solve your wife's emotional problem by trying to fix it,

Yeah, and religion can? Oh look a child in Africa is starving to death. Let's get religion to the rescue! Yay, now because of the emotional soothing bond of religion the child is miraculously well-fed and living a fantastic life.

Oh wait. That doesn't happen. You say that "I can't solve my wife's emotional problems" yeah well, are you trying to say religion can? Actually, religion and talking to your wife and telling her to solve the problem go very hand-in-hand. Except telling her how to solve the problem accurately is more effective. You're basically implying that religion solves problems where "telling your wife with logic" fails.

you can;'t understand an emotional connection or need using pure logic.

Yes you can. Anything can be explained through pure logic, it's called deductive reasoning. And last I recall when you use logic and science to understand emotional connections between people it's somewhere along the lines of neurosciences.

What are emotions? Nothing but a vast array of neurological reactions to certain situations designed to keep us mentally stable and physically well (except for the time where it doesn't keep us well).

The biggest problem I see here is that people seem to be judging the entire merits of religion on the mythology.

Then you have seen about 10% of the actual argument.

You know what I say to that? Fuck the mythology.

Oh yeah, fuck mythology. You know, the very things that are supposed to elucidate the so-called good morals to the practitioner. The stories that were supposed to explain unexplainable but now unexplainable occurrences.

The mythology only makes up a very small part of the actualy user experience when it comes to religion.

We're not debating user experience here. We are debating religion and all of its good and evil. The sociological, cultural, and political implications of religion impact far more than simply user experience.

Most religious people know that the stories are suspect and better serve as fables.

But that's not the point we're making. The point we're making is that there are so many heinous morals expounded in these fables and that they should never be part of the experience to begin with. Of course more people realize that these stories are fictional, but the argument here is that they were never useful to begin with and they are further proof that the idea of God that many worship is a narcissistic fiend or that religion is very deceitful.

The mythology and dogma almost always takes a back seat to the guidance, community, and fulfilment that religion provides. People don;t join religions because they want to believe fantastic stories. They join religions because they have emotional needs that religion helps fill.

What kind of guidance, exactly? What kind of guidance does religion give that already couldn't be given without its existence? And you're completely wrong with that last point.

The majority of people do not join religion at all. People are born into them. They are brainwashed and indoctrinated with the values that the religious community expects from them and are forced to partake in religious activity. Eventually, the Stockholm Syndrome sets in and the child believes that they are emotionally secure now with religion, when really all of that community and fulfillment could have been given through secular ways. Now granted, this doesn't happen to every person out there because there are people who join religion because they want a petty crutch to lean on in their desperation. Telling me that people join religion because of its redeeming emotional fulfillment is like trying to tell me that the Roman spectators went into the Colosseum because they enjoyed the view.

Religion provides a community.

So does terrorism. Get enough terrorists who share the same values together and they will treat themselves with the utmost respect and share wholesome pastimes and duties.

So does cultism. Get enough cultists to form around the same cryptic symbol and you have a community as well.

A community has large amounts of people enjoying the same values together. There are atheist communities, there are honor society communities in schools, there are sewing groups for mothers, etc...

The point is you don't need religion to be a part of a larger community. If one cranes their neck the other way, they might spot a community that is all right for them without having to adhere to strict moral codes, lies, stories, dogma, etc...

Religion provides a simple and preset list of morals and rules.

Like stoning a man or woman to death because they committed a petty crime? Like putting more power in men than women? Please tell me one good moral that religion gives that isn't common sense morality that can be learned by humans to form better communities.

Most important of all, religion provides comfort to peoples lives when nothing else can.

When nothing else can? I'm pretty sure there are thousands of things that could comfort you in your time of need. You don't need religion for any of that. But is this right? For people to be lied to and told that everything will be better just for the sake of having them comforted? To warp the realities of other peoples' minds for the sake of making them feel better?

We are better than that. We have cognitive functions that are designed to protect us from bad thoughts. We just need to exercise them instead of deliberately fooling them to feel better, the same way a person would inject drugs into their body to escape reality. But most of all, the number one aspect of this supposed "comfort" is null.

We are not supposed to be comforted. We are supposed to solve our problems or at least try to solve them. We are not supposed to feel better when bad things happen, because no matter how much comfort food you ingest, you're still never going to be the same after what happened. What we should do is take the sadness in and become more immune to its effects the next time something bad happens. Then we should continue our lives normally. All religion is doing is giving a crutch to the people who are so weak and cowardly on the inside when really all they need is more courage and strength to move on. Religion does not give you strength or courage, only pity and feel-good lies.

This is why I defend religion, not because of whether it is correct or not, but because it helps people.

Religion causes more problems, hatred, illogical thought processes, and lies than it ever has helped people. And no, I'm not talking about draconian Islamic nations that most people think of when it comes to corruption and religion. I'm talking about in general: religion has ruined relationships, interrupted scientific progress, substituted a pseudo-hope in the inner mentality of most people, made people subservient spiritual slaves of God, made people do the right things for completely wrong reasons, indoctrinated/brainwashed children from birth to forcibly take part in it (not when they are more mentally mature to make choices for themselves), reduced all sorts of basic freedoms, and all other sorts of unfathomable messes.

And as was pointed out above, religion is a tool, and it is most often used for good

Nope. It is used and always has been used for savage political, cultural, and social reasons and to control the masses into performing certain duties, good or bad. Religion throughout history has been extensively used for non-emotional fulfillment purposes so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Even the most righteous, logically sound individuals are subject to poor reasoning skills and deluded mindsets.

"I do not want religion to go away. I only want religion to be kept at home or in church where it belongs. ItâEUTMs a personal effect, like a toothbrush or a pair of shoes. ItâEUTMs not something to be used or worn by strangers. I want my children to be free not to believe and to know that our schools and our government will make decisions based on what is logical, just and fair-not on what they believe an imaginary God wants."

You're all kind of arguing a red herring here. No sensible atheist would think of blurting out "all religious people are stupid." Such a person doesn't exist. If you want to refute that, show me one and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

"Atheist Extremists," a term that is just grossly misused, don't believe religious people are stupid. They believe they're wrong. There's a difference, and that's about as extreme as it gets. The ACA (relevant, as this article is based in Texas) is not the same thing as the WBC; I don't care how hard you try to compare them.