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So.... games that are made by manufacturers other than GW. Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?

Accusing other manufacturers of uninspiring back ground and miniatures, as though GW are the height of creativity? Do me a favour.

Other manufacturers can't match GW on models and are weeds? GW models are for the most part abhorrent. Their CAD designed stuff is woeful. Other companies aren't weeds, they are the fresh blood that filled the space left by the diseased old rot that was GW.

There may be some people who go back to GW. Their current path is promising and is a relief after over a decade of stagnation, lack of inspiration and mismanagement. I really do hope the 'new' GW is a success and continues to put out good games. But a lot of the 'haters' came to recognise GW for what it was and it'll take quite a bit more to bring them back. I'm not saying it won't happen, but 8th by itself is not going to be the great turn around. It may be the start.

It would help if GW started producing miniatures that were of decent quality, at the moment they simply can't match the good manufacturers out there.

Wow just wow, leaving the obvious troll bait to one side and trying to answer the question in the thread title.

I honestly don't think a good 40k 8th ed will hurt the competition at all. There will probably be a drop off people playing other games as former 40k player dig their old armies out and try the new rules but I suspect that for those who return and enjoy it 40k 8th ed will become one of the many games they play. Variety is the spice of life especially when it comes to hobbies. If anything I could potentially see a strong 40k helping other games as new players want to explore the rest of the hobby. Sure initially that'll probably be AOS and other GW games but eventually they're almost certainly going to be exposed to other manufacturers games and maybe want to give them a try too. As much as many people seem wish it weren't the case a strong GW is good for wargaming as a whole even if in the past GW have wanted nothing to do with the wider hobby. Huge number of gamers get their start in GW games (for me it was 40k 3rd ed) and then move on to other things, a strong GW with lots of customers can only result in more gamers. One final point there are also gamers coming from the likes of pen and paper RPGs and board games who will also want to try wargaming and I'm willing to be that a lot of them are not going to go straight for 40k as their first step into wargaming. Instead they are likely in my mind to look at the likes of X-Wing or the huge number of games that exist these days that blur the lines between RPG, board game and miniature wargame.

As for me I'll take a look at this new 40k but will I play it? Probably not, these days I just don't enjoy having to use huge numbers of individually based minis at 28mm scale (or whatever we're calling GW stuff now). For 28mm I much prefer games of at most 3 or 4 small squads and a couple of support units unless I can multi base or use movement trays to make life easy.

I don't think that 8th is going to do much to hurt other systems at least in the short term,

those that have left 40K down to the gameplay but were still interested in the lore may well come back but they'll probably carry on with their other games too

and their reduced spend on the other games will be balanced by their talking to current GW players about the other games which will get some of them to try it too earlier than they otherwise would have

longer term though if 8th is a big hit and actually manages to do balance and competitive better than they've done for a long while there is going to be a negative effect on other smaller games

GW is still by far the most common entry into the hobby and a significant number of those investigating and then playing other stuff are ex-gw players who have burned out (the rules are too complex, the rules aren't complex enough, not balanced enough, cost etc), and the better the GW game is the slower that burnout will happened

less people giving up on GW (but not the hobby) = fewer new players for other things

those that have left 40K down to the gameplay but were still interested in the lore may well come back but they'll probably carry on with their other games too

and their reduced spend on the other games will be balanced by their talking to current GW players about the other games which will get some of them to try it too earlier than they otherwise would have

longer term though if 8th is a big hit and actually manages to do balance and competitive better than they've done for a long while there is going to be a negative effect on other smaller games

GW is still by far the most common entry into the hobby and a significant number of those investigating and then playing other stuff are ex-gw players who have burned out (the rules are too complex, the rules aren't complex enough, not balanced enough, cost etc), and the better the GW game is the slower that burnout will happened

less people giving up on GW (but not the hobby) = fewer new players for other things

Excellent points.

I think overall the shift will be massively in favor of GW though, as ex-40k players have been "selling" other games for ages now and have pretty much convinced most of the available pool.

With all that's been announced about 8th and the massive change in direction and execution by GW, I wouldn't be surprised if 40K doubles in revenue and active players within a year.

Those have to come from somewhere and it would only make sense that the games previously used as an escape from 40k would end up taking the biggest hit.

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

I think a lot of these "leavers" would remain sceptical and cautious about returning to 40k in the short term, while 8th will have to unfold over time to reveal if it was a good move or merely more of the same.

40k did need another reboot though, but again time will tell if this is the reboot it needed or not.

Gamers that like other systems to 40k wont really be affected imho. Would tou jump ship from WMH or FoW just because GW has released "yet another edition" and hyped it (pretty) well to be fair?
Doubt it.
I'd invest in a brand new system if I had the time and motivation. As it stands 40k suits my needs fairly well but for others who have invested just as much as me in other systems its a non runner to switch.

So. No.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

those that have left 40K down to the gameplay but were still interested in the lore may well come back but they'll probably carry on with their other games too

and their reduced spend on the other games will be balanced by their talking to current GW players about the other games which will get some of them to try it too earlier than they otherwise would have

longer term though if 8th is a big hit and actually manages to do balance and competitive better than they've done for a long while there is going to be a negative effect on other smaller games

GW is still by far the most common entry into the hobby and a significant number of those investigating and then playing other stuff are ex-gw players who have burned out (the rules are too complex, the rules aren't complex enough, not balanced enough, cost etc), and the better the GW game is the slower that burnout will happened

less people giving up on GW (but not the hobby) = fewer new players for other things

I agree with most of the above.

I disagree with the conclusion that there will be fewer players for other things though, especially considering the current trend of simple rule sets. Players do not need to dedicate themselves to a single game, they can have GW and something else.

I think a strong GW is good for the competition.

"What do you want?"
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I'd look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange it for me, Mr. Morden?"
Morden and Vir, In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum

I don't think 8th will change much, because what we've seen so far isn't all that impressive. The impression I have so far is that 8th is still going to be a flawed game, and it just looks amazing when compared to the unplayable mess of 7th. So yeah, 40k will pick up some returning players who really wanted to play 40k and only stopped because 7th was too broken, but nothing we've seen so far suggests that 8th is the kind of must-buy game that is going to attract people who don't already want to play 40k. If you enjoy WM/H then nothing about 8th edition is going to change that, it's a completely different genre of game with completely different fluff/models. Even if you do play some 8th on the side you're still going to keep up with WM/H. Now, a person who grudgingly playes WM/H because they're addicted to miniatures games and have to play something if they aren't playing 40k will come back, but how many people like that actually exist?

And I agree with the comments that GW's models are nothing special. If you like them, great, but that's subjective aesthetic preference. Nothing about them is inherently and objectively superior to the models produced by other companies. So it's absurd to say that everyone truly loves GW's models, and will immediately dump everything else to buy more GW stuff once 8th arrives. In fact, the people with that level of love for GW's models probably never left in the first place, they just kept buying because they love the models that much. GW's biggest losses have come from people who care about the rules, not the models.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if 40K doubles in revenue and active players within a year.

I would. The idea that GW can double its revenue within a year is utter lunacy, and not supported at all by their financial numbers. Doubling 40k's revenue would mean not only reversing GW's entire decline from the past decade or so, but vastly expanding the company beyond its previous peak. Even if you assume that every single 40k player who moved to another game comes back for 8th you still have to recruit a ton of new players, especially since those returning customers likely have established armies and don't need to buy much to resume playing. IOW, doubling their revenue is simply not going to happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 17:39:22

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all

Yeah, you can see how others competitors have very fast accostumed to the GW ways, raising prices to no end and beginning the GW-style greedy downfall of hold. Competition can only be good to customers.

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

I think a resurgent GW spells trouble for middling companies, or those attempting to expand.

Why not the little guys? Well, they tend to be a niche within a niche. For instance, someone I know has been writing background fiction for Wild West Exodus, a game about to enter its second edition. Whilst not a setting I'm especially keen on aesthetically, being an Atherpunk Cowboy setting is a unique selling point - so from there they're doing something incredibly different to GW.

Warmahordes? Well from what I gather online, PP have been irritating their players somewhat, but the game remains distinct to GW aesthetically.

But the middle guys? Gates of Antares could be in for a real scrap if the new 40k delivers its vaunted promises, because both games are sci-fi. 40k there has a distinct edge in that there's gamers out there with armies they've not touched, so can get back into 40k very easily.

As for Specialist Games? That remains to be seen. Bloodbowl appears to selling very well based on how easily stuff has sold out, but that could be misleading, and due to incredibly low stock held. The others are yet to come, so we'll have to wait and see. I'm massively hyped for the return of Adeptus Titanicus, but that's based on nostalgia. If the game is a swing and a miss, they may struggle to get the sales needed to support it, as those Titans may not be especially cheap. And if that struggles, seems possible we might kiss goodbye to a full return for Epic - something which the makers of games in a similar scale breather a sigh of relief.

Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.

How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.

I personally think they're going to see a solid drop around the launch and then a continuous loss of popularity as even the most entrenched 40k haters go back to the miniatures they truly love.

It's less clear that it would affect micro games like x wing though but they're not in the same category imo, that's more BFG.

I think, if 8E turns out *roughly* like they're portraying it, my guess is that 40k will rapidly regain health and return to the #1 spot that it held before the 6E/7E debacle.

That said, I don't think it will ever be the single dominating monolith it used to be, GW has borked up too often for too long and others have established firm footholds in the market with deep followings, while successive editions have shed that old school charm and weirdness the game had. If I were getting into tabletop games today, right now, 40k would not be quite as interesting to me as it was in older editions, the background stuff is thinner in substance and the visuals/art/model displays/etc all feel much less "authentic" and much more staged/marketing/etc and increasingly stylized along the lines of something out of LoL or WoW.

I also don't think you can say games like WMH can't compete on models, they make some excellent models, they're just stylized in a way that doesn't appeal to as many people and they don't make much "big" stuff. WMH, Heavy Gear, Dropzone Commander, Infinity, etc all make some truly excellent models that easily match or exceed much of what GW puts out, they just don't make stuff as *big* as GW does, or do it all in plastic. Plastic has its downsides, it doesn't do certain kinds of detail well (undercuts, fine detail, stuff like flowing robes often have to be exaggerated to look quite right, etc) and, due to such models being done in CAD, very much have a "CG" look to them (compare the old metal GK termi's to the plastic ones for example). GW is the king of plastic and "big", but not necessarily the king of awesome models in general.

But either way, 8E looks, on the whole, to be an improvement. Given that 6E and 7E were such dog turds, I'm not sure exactly *how* much of an improvement, but we'll see. If GW really hits it out of the park with a *reasonably* functional ruleset and *mostly* balanced armies, 40k is going to sell...very well, but I don't think it will ever regain the stranglehold it once had on the market.

X-Wing a micro-game ? the numbers suggest otherwise didn't it knock 40k off the biggest geek game sales volume throne the other year ?

I doubt it'll do much damage to other games, I suspect a lot of players especially the 'returning' spend will be limited to a BRB and Army book, less if they are happy with PDF's for their i-beeps or whatever

I doubt it'll really even dent the smaller skirmish games market as they provide wider range of settings / flavour / dice so people choose to play them over even the (hopefully) damn fine vanilla of 8th

Even WMH is kind of safe as the player base remains fairly chipper despite PP'S best efforts

So basically no, you are wronger than replacing Saturday morning cartoons with cookingcshows

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

Turnip Jedi wrote:X-Wing a micro-game ? the numbers suggest otherwise didn't it knock 40k off the biggest geek game sales volume throne the other year ?

I doubt it'll do much damage to other games, I suspect a lot of players especially the 'returning' spend will be limited to a BRB and Army book, less if they are happy with PDF's for their i-beeps or whatever

I doubt it'll really even dent the smaller skirmish games market as they provide wider range of settings / flavour / dice so people choose to play them over even the (hopefully) damn fine vanilla of 8th

Even WMH is kind of safe as the player base remains fairly chipper despite PP'S best efforts

So basically no, you are wronger than replacing Saturday morning cartoons with cookingcshows

About X-Wing what I meant is that it's closer to a Bloodbowl or other specialist game, with very limited rules, options and game time.
It's clearly making a ton of money, but I don't really put it in the same category as 40K personally.
I don't think it appeals to the same people or ever really competes with 40K.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:Don't think it will hurt other games, but may get some long shelved armies with the dust blown off them

I'd love to see that tbh, there's so many people I'd like to play against who won't touch 40K 6/7e anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 19:42:03

You appear to be saying there is a finite amount of disposable hobby income, which I agree with

You then say a good 8th edition will redirect an amount of this finite money to GW, and away from other companies, it's possible but probably not on the scale you state

You then dismiss a game whose sales are comparable to as is 40k as 'not the same' but clearly it sucks up a fair portion of the same finite hobby money

And obviously YMMV but in my recent experience all the X-Wing players at my gaming club previously played 40k, yes it's a tiny sample but the last local regional held for X-Wing pulled just smidge over 100 players and the local big annual 40k bash pulled mid-40's, again this could be just a local bias, but its telling, also of all of 40k's options, much like a CCG maybe 20% are actual competitive choices, X-Wing also has that issue to a degree but at a guess its nearer to 50%

"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

I think, having had this discussion on multiple occasions before, 40K is essentially Schrodingers wargame, where it simultaneously is exactly the same and completely different from every other game on the market depending on the argument that the 40K fan is trying to champion/defend.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

8th ed will have no effect on the other companies. 40k is a solid game but it wont turn people who arent interested. on the other hand it may bring back a handful from before but it could just as easily drive off all the players who hate AoS. but I have to also point out this is not a win/lose type thing most people I know play more than one system.

You appear to be saying there is a finite amount of disposable hobby income, which I agree with

You then say a good 8th edition will redirect an amount of this finite money to GW, and away from other companies, it's possible but probably not on the scale you state

You then dismiss a game whose sales are comparable to as is 40k as 'not the same' but clearly it sucks up a fair portion of the same finite hobby money

And obviously YMMV but in my recent experience all the X-Wing players at my gaming club previously played 40k, yes it's a tiny sample but the last local regional held for X-Wing pulled just smidge over 100 players and the local big annual 40k bash pulled mid-40's, again this could be just a local bias, but its telling, also of all of 40k's options, much like a CCG maybe 20% are actual competitive choices, X-Wing also has that issue to a degree but at a guess its nearer to 50%

I had no idea 40K players switched to X Wing, but it's interesting considering how vastly different the games are.

As previously mentionned, I'm sure X Wing has major traction, I just don't think moving 5 spaceships over a flat mat is a reasonable comparison with assembling, painting and then moving 100 miniatures across a table with 3D terrain.

But this is definitely interesting since it opens up other niches which might stand to lose from that hypothetical success, including hybrid games like xwing and full on board games even.

Then, to be blunt, you're so hopelessly unaware of the market you've essentially disqualified yourself from being able to have any sort of informed discussion about it.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

morgoth wrote:As previously mentionned, I'm sure X Wing has major traction, I just don't think moving 5 spaceships over a flat mat is a reasonable comparison with assembling, painting and then moving 100 miniatures across a table with 3D terrain.

Then how is WM/H a competitor to 40k? After all, WM/H doesn't involve 100 miniatures or 3d terrain. So clearly the WM/H players are a different market, and 40k's success will have no effect on them.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all

You appear to be saying there is a finite amount of disposable hobby income, which I agree with

You then say a good 8th edition will redirect an amount of this finite money to GW, and away from other companies, it's possible but probably not on the scale you state

You then dismiss a game whose sales are comparable to as is 40k as 'not the same' but clearly it sucks up a fair portion of the same finite hobby money

And obviously YMMV but in my recent experience all the X-Wing players at my gaming club previously played 40k, yes it's a tiny sample but the last local regional held for X-Wing pulled just smidge over 100 players and the local big annual 40k bash pulled mid-40's, again this could be just a local bias, but its telling, also of all of 40k's options, much like a CCG maybe 20% are actual competitive choices, X-Wing also has that issue to a degree but at a guess its nearer to 50%

I had no idea 40K players switched to X Wing, but it's interesting considering how vastly different the games are.

A fair number did, 40k's sales fall correlated pretty well with X-Wing's rise and I know a good number of people that play either both or that switched over.

As previously mentionned, I'm sure X Wing has major traction, I just don't think moving 5 spaceships over a flat mat is a reasonable comparison with assembling, painting and then moving 100 miniatures across a table with 3D terrain.

A lot of them aren't looking for the same exact experience, but rather something they can bring to a table and play with any random person and have a relatively even game involving miniatures, and get through a game in a reasonable amount of time, beyond that everything is details.

The fact that X-Wing was a fraction of the price to get into and easy to start also helped, particularly as a "well 40k kinda sucks right now, this is a cheap diversion, let's check it out while I take a break from 40k".

That said, there may also be something to the idea that X-Wing is something of a diversion for many while they wait for GW to sort their gak out and will return to 40k once it's playable, at least in part.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/13 23:28:20