I have had my MK3 for about 9 months now and it sounds wonderful!!! Though I have nothing to compare it with except when I had the Rachel for a bit. The catch phrase "The last amp you'll ever want!" may not hold true with the MK3 since the MK4 is supposedly 20-30% better??? Maybe it is but I like the MK3 and not prepared to pay for upgrades, new tubes and shipping charges. I want to improve what I already own. I know, if you are an audiophile or just obsessed, you'll thirst for the last bit of % improvement at any cost. Oh well.

RJR. You can definitely improve on the MkIII in many ways...but you are starting good with what you have. At the same time, everything matters with this potentially very revealing amp...everything...room, feet, cables, tubes, speaker placement and on and on....Can you explain how you would like your sound to change...what would make a better sound to you?

Thanks and that is a great Q. When I first heard my MK3 paired with Omen Def, the sound was flat, dull and, actually, sounded horrible. I was frustrated and couldn't believe it. But I found out that all recordings on CD's (I rip to Flac) are not created equal. For example, Peter Gabriel So sounds great and Us is just dull and flat. Other recordings sound great while others flat. I upgraded my speaker cables and that made a bit of difference.

I listen primarily to Rock; 70's thru 90's. I am trying to get a very good signature sound for Rock music and make so-so recordings sound better and good recordings sound great. I realize there are many variables involved and I can tube roll and tube roll and tube roll... I am trying to maximize my effort and keep costs to an acceptable minimum. I just think tube rolling can get me to that place faster.

So what are the tubes you are using? And where are your Torii controls...impedance switch, bias switch, treble and bass knobs.

Also, each system is going to have different characteristics depending on all the stuff involved. And then, even if you put the same exact system in different rooms, it will sound different, the rooms emphasizing or cutting different frequency areas depending on room modes and reflection patterns.

So more specific descriptors would help. Do you feel like the sound has a generally correct balance of bass, mid, highs, or if not...what's up. Does it feel overly clarified in any area, or overly muddy. Would you like brighter or darker/warmer midrange sound? Is the bass right... could it be tighter, looser, deeper....Is the midrange right or is it dark or bright, hard or soft... These sorts of descriptors...

RJR, you can definitely improve the sound with a different power cable than stock. Steve's power cables are very good. I've tried a lot of different power cables on my Mk III and they all add something.

I would also suggest considering having the capacitors changed to the Jupiter Beeswax. A very significant difference for the better for rock and any musical genre. I was expecting an improvement but the improvement was deeper than I expected when I had my Torii modded to these caps.

As for OB3. . .they are worth a shot. Before I got the Jupiter caps put in, I really only liked OA3 in this machine. But lately I've been listening to some OB3s and enjoy the change. I'm in a different room now with different needs and though I don't see myself ever using OC3 or OD3, I'm very happy with the RCA coke bottle shaped OB3s I have in now.

Please don't get me wrong, I am sure the new changes in the Torii sound great and may be better the old one, however, I do wonder if (please don't get upset anybody) if part of the reason for changing the Torii is to separate it from the Rachel amp in the Decware line up. In other words, some clever marketing which is not a bad thing. Now a new tube set amplifier rounds out the mix offered. It seems as it will be presented as more of a KT66 amp that can also run El34, but won't sound as good as the KT66. Worthy of upgrading from Torii III? Not for me. The Torii, is the last amp I would ever want!

That makes me ever more curious now to try the Gold Lion KT77 (the bias is supposed to be the same as the el34) in the Torii III and also the more expensive Psvane EL34PH. I am waiting till winter, when I listen much more. A couple on the forum swear the Kt88 sounds better then the El34 in the Torri (can't find it now) but the bias won't be as close and even despite not using the CCE mod.

That said, its hard to beat the sweet midrange of the El34. If anyone should try the Gold Lion KT77, it should be you Lon ;) as they say it provides more bass. However, it is also more linear, which to me means less mid range emphasis which I like.

Nice observations OC. Does have a unique slot in the lineup if the new tubes are emphasized. And it doesn't have meters. I still see neither the need for nor the appeal of meters on these amps.

To be honest I'm greatly in love with the sound of the JJ 6CA7 cryo'd tubes and not inclined to try any other tubes at this point. My new room gives me a different tonal balance and I no longer seek more bass. I'm like you, the Torii Mk III is the last amp for me at least for the near future, and I'm not going for a Mk IV. And staying with what I'm using right now.

Interesting thoughts, though I am not altogether sure the theory holds up (but it could). After all, before the Torii Monos there were only two power tube types for the whole lineup. And the Torii MkII came out of the original Torii, and the MkIII was a refinement of the MkII.

Interestingly for the MkIV, the Monos and Mystery amps had become part of Steve's language...but the MkIV is clearly that...the next iteration of the Torii following the MkIII.

From my conversations with Steve the KT66 just emerged as a tube he was liking a lot in the MkIV as he was refining/testing/voicing. And as he went further with it, the more he seemed to feel good about it. He had done a lot of power tube play with the Mystery amp if I recall, and I bet this is what opened that tube exploration creative door wide as he got closer to finishing the MkIV. And that the EL34 works really well (it was the Torii design basis), and that the KT66 gave such a different and very compelling sound...the two amps for one is a a sweet thing.

Makes me wonder further about the KT77 in the MkIII too OC. I also agree with you both that the MkIII is so good that there is no real reason to go further for me...Luckily, I need another amp, something I have wanted for a few years now, and I am glad it will be the MKIV.

I hope you get up the nerve to try the other tubes OC! I did use the Gold Lion KT77s in the Rachel I had for a while...I think they took a loooonngg time to burn in, and I think they were very articulate and solid if I recall. Dimm memories.

RJR,

My questions are in hopes of steering you in the direction you want to go most efficiently. There are thousands of dollars of legitimate improvements you could make (power treatment, room treatment, cables, preamp, caps, vibration control, tubes, and on), but you clearly want the most for the least toward a more satisfying sound.

No doubt we can help steer you better with a better idea of what needs changing. There are so many ways to adjust the Torii!

Hi all, Just a brief note about my observations on my torii III V-Caps. I believe the amp has matured enough to comment. I have always used the treble control WOT(wide open throttle) from the get go and had to keep the bass control at approx 10-11 O'clock or bomminess would bare its ugly head. However, now after 9 months of use, the bass control is now WOT and the mids have opened up even further without the boom. Admittedly, my Gran Veenas do not like feedback so maybe I shouldn't be suprised. The other major change I had made 4-5 months ago as per Steve's suggestion was to abandon the input 6N1P's and replaced them with a cryod pair of Ron Sheldon's Philips JAN 6922 / 6DJ8. Not top of the line but these now allow the EL34s to be driven to full power(which I need because we are only 90 db efficient) without the input tube distorting and therefore causing EL 34 distortion befor it would clip. Is it possible that the much more efficient speaker systems never heard this as the 6N1P would never be driven hard enough to distort? Regards, Dave H

Glad that the amp has bloomed for you and allowed you to really enjoy the sound!

I have been using 6N1Ps from Ron Sheldon for some time and love them. Every time I try a 6922 in I just don't like the sound as well, and I don't seem to need any more power. But I know others really like the 6922 in these amps and I'm glad you have discovered a pair that lets you utilize all the power the Torii can dish out!

My particular Torii MkIII has distorted with 6N1Ps at too low a volume for me from the get go. This is with MG944s (94dB) and HR-1s (93dB). Luckily I prefer the sound of a number of other NOS 6DJ8s, 7DJ8s, and 6922s. I definitely can drive my Torii much louder with any of these...louder than I can handle.

I don't have much to relate, it's been some time since I did some comparisons. I'd say the 6 and 7 were a bit leaner and drier. The 6922s I have used were generally more generous in the bass, but with a tizzier treble? It's been a while. I decided years ago that I really prefer the 6N1P type in my Mk IIIs and I have just stuck with those in my Mk II and my Mk IIIs. Just a better fit for my system than 6DJ8, 7DJ8 (I've only heard one pair of these I think) and 6922.

Thanks for the reply Lon, Respectfully commenting, I have zero tizziness in the treble that I hear with my GV's, both pots WOT. Wondering if its possible that it could be originating up stream? Maybe my ears have a different frequency response tolerance than others and I know we are all different in our perception of the delivered product. My insecurity tells me that maybe the more efficient product is the one to pursue. BTW, I would enjoy meeting you all at next years Decfest as this year is full of complications for me. Thank you as I enjoy the dialog. Dave H

Well, I'm very sensitive to treble grain, and I've had my ears tested every year and I still have a surprising amount of high frequency hearing. I love the treble cut circuit on Decware amps, I need them, and it's mainly because of room. In my Dad's room I don't need treble reduction. I really don't believe that it's upstream from other components.

My tizzy treble comment was in regards to 6922 having a bit of it in comparison with 6DJ8.

Anyway, glad you like what you like but 6922 and 6Dj8 just have never done it for me in comparison to the 6N1P tubes. Luckily I don't need the power boost the others would give the Mk III.

As for Decfest, I've never been and probably won't be going any time soon. Til this year I lived too far away and all my vacation times were visiting family or in-laws and not going to audio fests. And now that I'm close I am in a situation, looking after my parents, where I can't even be gone a whole day, let alone a weekend. And that's not going to change soon.

Thanks Lon for the sincere reply. I now will purchase a pair of 6DJ8's and will look forward towards the education. I have read many of your posts and trust your experienced ear. Always fun to look beyond.

I appreciate all the posts. I went to a Ham Fest, a couple of weeks ago, here in Virginia Beach and found a guy selling tubes. I finally touched base with him the other day and he is a bit of an audiophile. He has power cables, tubes and various items that I will be able to try to see if I can get a different sonic signature. It is an excellent opportunity for me to tube roll without the expense of buying-and-trying.

I still feel that many of my flac recordings from the CD's I owned were just engineered poorly. I know that DSD is around the corner as the new digital format, but it is still in its infancy and albums are approximately $25.

I do have a question, though. When I try a quad of EL34's or similar tube, do they have to be matched within 10% or does the amp take over and adjust itself?

I would get quads as matched as possible myself, though 10 percent may be just fine. I'm not an expert on this aspect by any means.

My mother's parents used to live in Youngstown. In Ohio I mostly lived in Burton, Ohio, in Geauga County, out in the country, where my Dad had the church on the town square for 27 years. He retired to Bay Village, west of Cleveland and that's where my parents are living now.

Having the MK3 and Zu Omen Defs and listening now for about a year or so, I always wondered what I can do to improve/tweak the sound. All of you have helped, yet I needed an independent perspective and I recently got one. I also talked to Steve and he essentially said that I have made some good improvements, but tube rolling is the next evolution more so than upgrading the MK3 to MK4.

I bumped into a gentlemen at a Ham Fest that has tube amps and vinyl and serious about music. He listens to Jazz via vinyl and is also a musician.

He came over the other day to help me roll some tubes. We rolled Amperex JAN6922, RCA 5U4GB black plates and 0B3 (yes these purple glowing tubes are just cool). The sound stage immediately improved. I played music that he recognizes, like Nora Jones. He could not BELIEVE the sound. He kept using the terms, tight, 3D and WOW!!! He said that he was hearing sounds, that he never heard, emanating from the MK3. He couldn't wait to get home to see if he could duplicate the sound on his rig. I believe he may just sell some of his stuff and buy Decware??? He was that impressed with the MK3.

We will get together again and do some more tube rolling. He has some Mullard KT88 (actually made in England in the 60's if my memory serves me correctly) that we will try. But he has other output and input tubes to try too.

Awesome RJR! I'm listening to some jazz vinyl right now on my system and the Torri Mk III and the ZP3 and the CSP2+ are translating what comes off my Rega RP3 so wonderfully right now that there's not one digital thing I can put on in any format and play through the system that will top this sound. I can see why your fellow music lover was bowled over by your system's sound.

I had originally thought this weekend I would move the new Torii Mk III I received in July from the second system and put it down here in the main system, it has over 1500 hours on it now. But. . . I just don't want to move my seasoned Mk III out. This has been such an amazing amp and the Beeswax caps really influenced its sound favorably. The sound quality this system achieves really amazes me sometimes. I imagine a much younger self just reveling in the system he dreamed of having one day. We are so lucky to have this window into the sound thanks to Steve and Bob and all the Decware family.

Please keep us posted about how your system develops through tube-rolling.