interesting, I wish we knew more about the targets, guns and loads. It'd also be interesting to see how those scores would look if superimposed on out current ASSRA/ISSA targets. its certain that they sure could shoot well.

Some here still tend to think Offhand was the only true way back in the day of Schuetzen...

If so, "some" are pretty ignorant: in the days of Brockway, Billinghurst, James, Lewis, and all the other great barrel-smiths of the pre-civil war period, rest-shooting (often with scopes) was a common form of competition.

Good example is Jim Luke and his buddy Chuck Bender two of the best offhand Schuetzen shooters. They are both shooting NRA Lever Silhouette now and winning top matches with Lever action Marlin 30/30's that have had very few changes from factory original.

Chuck's 100 shot record still stands and it is a pleasure to stand next to Chuck and Jim shooting Lever Action OH. They never seem to miss

QuestionableMaynardYou were wandering how the scores on the Standard American target relate to the German Ring target we are more familiar with today?The 8 ring on the Standard American is 8 inches in diameter (slightly larger than the 200 yard German Ring target 21 ring), the 9 ring is 5.54 (a little smaller than the 22 ring) and the 10 ring is 3.36 inches (slightly larger than the 24 ring). So I think you can determine in a general way how scores would look superimposed on the 200 German Ring target.All of those targets were fired in 1886-87 so the loads would have been straight black powder. If you click the small images on the link provided by John Louis, a larger image is launched giving more detail such as:The 200 yard 4.5 inch group, 50-shot rest target by Z.E. Leonard used a Maynard .32 cal., 28-inch barrel. The shell held 35 grains of powder; the bullet was patched, and weighed 165 grains. The rifle was cleaned after each shot and fired from rest.The 10-shot 200 yard, 2 1/16 group, also by Leonard was shot with a Maynard round barrel, 32 inches in length, weighing about 6 ½ pounds, .38 cal, 50 grains of American Rifle Cartridge-powder, patched bullet, weighing 330 grains, shot from a rest, and barrel cleaned after each shot. All the other targets were offhand.Hope that helps

« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2017 at 1:36pm by RSW »

Randy WThere are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.

Benchrest shooting is far from being easy but just the opposite and by far the more difficult of the two. You can go out and win offhand matches with a mediocre shooting rifle and mediocre condition reading skills. But there is very little hope of ever winning a bench match while using the same rifle and lacking condition reading skills.The decline in good Offhand Shooters is due mostly to age and the resulting poor health. Back in the 70's everyone in our group shot Offhand and at every match but those days are long gone as are some of those who shot it. The remaining just cannot do it anymore and there are no young bucks getting into the sport to carry that tradition on at our club.

JL,How many times have you tried to shoot OH and if you have, what has been your best score.

Go out and practice OH and come back and tell how easy it is.

The best OH shooters, shoot the best equipment and are also the best in BR. Look at Jim Feren, he is still shooting his 1980's rifle. It off because it a sub standard rifle today but, not far enough to not be competive and still win agg's.

Then look at Garry Millers scores at Spokane (overall winner). Garry is in his 70's and has ALWAYS been good OH & BR. He came from ML and went straight to the top after learning our sport, even shooting a Ruger. He is the only one I know of that has shot 250's with a Ruger. A lot of the good OH shooters are gone, such as Dave Purcel and many are loosing their OH edge, because of age but, OH shooters have a talent beyond BR shooters and excell in BR & OH because of it.

OH = HARD!

BR = easy

Me? I know it's hard, because I've done it. I'm not good at it, I've only shot a handfull of scores, between 200 and 210 in 32 years! Most of my agg wins are because I shot one of those 200+ scores. I keep trying but, I don't practice, because it's HARD and I'm OLD!

Frank I have won my fair share of offhand events being in the top three at our ISSA Regional events from 2005-2007 in CF irons, scope and rimfire and first in CF scope only once in 2007. That was back in the day when we had alot of travelers and some of the best offhand shooters headed to Tommy's match right after our regional events. Most of those were probably just by the luck of trying to do good as I just don't care to shoot it and only did so for the fun of it all just once yearly and I stopped doing so after the 2009 regional. All my persoanl goals set, time spent and then accomplished have always revolved around bench shooting and just simply what I truly enjoy and still do.

Not everyone John D Kelly was to busy making the same rounds and winning the benchrest matches and doing the undone. Pope referred to John as the Dean of benchrest shooting and what he accomplished with his 38-72 Kelly-Pope rightfully so in the early 1900's. There are by far more today that have not equaled his personal accomplishments and very few that yet have.

to each his own. Both have there difficulties and require ability. Both need equipment equal to the game to score well. I have always preferred offhand but that does not mean I don't enjoy the bench. I would hate to see this game go to just bench shooting. Schuetzen was mainly offhand and I hope that we see that last well beyond our time.