Tadao Ando Interview: 20 Minutes with a Master

I can easily point to Tadao Ando's work as one of my earliest sources of inspiration, pulling me toward a life embedded in architecture. The powerful simplicity of his forms has always seemed to me, to represent an understanding far greater than that of the built environment alone. A few weeks ago, we had a rare opportunity to meet and talk with the master, thanks to a generous offer from Cal Poly Pomona and Axel Schmitzberger, during Ando's brief visit to Los Angeles to collect his 2012 Richard Neutra Award. So, Orhan, Alex, Kaori and I headed out to Neutra's VDL House in Silver Lake, on a chilly afternoon in late March, for a brief, yet memorable, chat.

Orhan AyyüceI met you 25 years ago at Morphosis' office while you were visiting LA doing lectures. I'd like to ask you about the changes you've noticed in Los Angeles since that time.

Tadao AndoThe first time I came to LA was in 1975. Since then the world has moved very quickly. The environment has changed so much as well. The mentality, or thinking, of the architects here has not changed much compared to the rate of environmental change.

OACan you describe this more? The architects of that period believed they were doing groundbreaking work. Do you still think this is true?

TAWhat I see, as opposed to the 1950's, when we look at the case study houses, part of the California architecture was the promise of a new lifestyle. The architecture was trying to accommodate, or relate, to this new lifestyle for that generation. This seems to have gradually changed to a search for form for expression by itself. Now, I see more architecture that relates to the business of architecture. In this sense, it seems like the focus of trying to define what living in our time should be like, is not as strong as it used to be back in the '50's.

OAIn the 50's the economic conditions were completely different. We are in a completely different era. We have a very definite difference between income levels, so there's some kind of political nervousness, and architects can no longer separate themselves from the nervousness so they have to respond to social issues in addition to architectural or urban issues. So, I was wondering if you have any thoughts about the architect's role of being a social leader in changing the environment or what they can do at the urban scale.

TAFor me, going back to what we were talking about before, it's a problem not unique to Los Angeles. It's a problem we all share regarding natural resources and the environment. Not too long ago, we were a planet of 3 billion people. Now we have 7.7 billion people. We'll quickly have 10 billion. Because of that, it's very difficult to not always think about how to use the resources available to us. In the sense of the gap you mentioned, it leads to something we need need to address, whether you're rich or poor. As a design profession, we need to make it very clear what our position is, in the global situation that we're facing. How do we intelligently address the problem that faces everyone, about material resources? And how do we lead society to think that it is something we have to address, rather than just following the business driven goals of each project? It's important that within each of our work that we think about how we use materials, and how energy can be used in a way that it creates a meaningful message for people that live in the building. How the importance of the environment can be perceived by the experience of the architecture.

The way that architects think about their work is still the same. There's no change or shift in focus in the way architects address available resources and energy use. It's important for young architects to begin thinking about this.

OAAre you doing any work, in your own office, that embodies the principals you just talked about?

TAFor me, what I'm trying to do, is try to make people think about these issues. I'm not in a position to tell people what to do. I want people to realize the potential and the problem. For example, in my work, whether it is an art museum or other type of project, I try to put nature as the focus of the message. As a person looks at a space I design, they may question their own existence as it relates to the space, but they are still looking at the architecture in relationship to the natural context.

I look at art - whether it's art, music, film, architecture - as a way to look for inspiration. To make a thing about other things. So, in that same way, I try to make people think about other things in my own work. For example, on the flight here, I was watching the movie "Iron Lady" starring Meryl Streep, portraying Margaret Thatcher in her later years. I was watching Meryl Streep, as an actress - an artist portraying a role - but at the same time, I was thinking about the life and decisions of Margaret Thatcher. In a similar way, in my own work, I try to embed a message that the users can take away with them and use in their own way.

Another example is when I was in Malibu this morning, at my construction site, there was a group of sea lions, and this made me realize that I was not alone in this environment. They are using this same environment.

Paul PetruniaThe business of architecture is in a state of crisis right now. There are many young architects and students that are questioning their role because it is so difficult to find work. Do you have any advice for young architects that are struggling to find new ways to apply their architectural skills and experience?

TAFor me, I think architecture is one of the best professions for society. How many careers can you find that can combine structure and composition of space; while working with specialists in may different fields to create a work of architecture. These skills don't limit themselves to just buildings. We have learned to coordinate and collaborate with many different people to create great things. There are few other professions that rely on one person to coordinate these types of important projects for society. The architect's skills are beneficial to society in so many ways, and that leads us to think about how our creative, managerial and coordination skills can be applied to other fields.

We don't work in a vacuum. We compose, put everything together, while working with a lot of people. There is a lot of excitement and inspiration that comes from interacting and working with so many people. We need to be able to use this practice in a way that extends the profession of architecture into other areas. There are always times of recession and hardship, so we need to understand this greater skill that architecture provides us.

And for me, personally, the hope and the dream is not something you can receive from someone. It's important to start from within. You can't wait for something to happen. This is the approach I've always taken. Look at me - I'm doing well... I didn't study architecture in school. I didn't graduate from university. I started with a big disadvantage.

OASo you're not going back to boxing?

(laughs all around)

TAI'm still boxing!

OAI was watching a documentary online about you on the internet. It was in Japanese, so I couldn't understand a word. There was a scene in the video showing you with a megaphone in your hand, speaking to about 200 hundred workers at a construction site. This scene made me very emotional. I could see that you have a talent for connecting with people.

TAAs we all know, you can't make architecture by yourself. An architect needs to make everyone take ownership for the work. To be successful, you need to ensure that every carpenter, plumber, and so on, in every project, is doing their own project. Every time I go to the construction site, I try to take a photograph of every worker. It's a symbol that we're all working together with a shared goal. It's very important for me that everyone feels that way.

Related Archinect Profiles

About the Authors

Paul Petrunia is the founder and director of Archinect, a (mostly) online publication/resource founded in 1997 to establish a more connected community of architects, students, designers and fans of the designed environment. Outside of managing his growing team of writers, editors, designers and ...

Orhan Ayyüce is a long time contributor to Archinect as a senior editor and writes about architecture, urbanism, people, politics, arts, and culture. His featured articles, interviews, news posts, and instigations are frequently published here. He is a licensed architect in ...

156 Comments

The first thing that struck me - and I have not finished reading the interview yet, is this; "Now, I see more architecture that relates to the business of architecture. In this sense, it seems like the focus of trying to define what living in our time should be like, is not as strong as it used to be back in the '50's."

"We don't work in a vacuum. We compose, put everything together, while working with a lot of people. There is a lot of excitement and inspiration that comes from interacting and working with so many people. We need to be able to use this practice in a way that extends the profession of architecture into other areas. There are always times of recession and hardship, so we need to understand this greater skill that architecture provides us.

And for me, personally, the hope and the dream is not something you can receive from someone. It's important to start from within. You can't wait for something to happen. This is the approach I've always taken. Look at me - I'm doing well... I didn't study architecture in school. I didn't graduate from university. I started with a big disadvantage."

As we all know, you can't make architecture by yourself. An architect needs to make everyone take ownership for the work. To be successful, you need to ensure that every carpenter, plumber, and so on, in every project, is doing their own project. Every time I go to the construction site, I try to take a photograph of every worker. It's a symbol that we're all working together with a shared goal. It's very important for me that everyone feels that way.

short and sweet--thanks for sharing! Ando has been a tremendous influence and inspiration for me when thinking about pure space, form and landscape working in harmony.

I sometimes imagine that millions of years from now when another intelligent species excavates the earth they find the ruins of Louis Kahn's and Tadao Ando's buildings, and maybe they'll think we had some grace and weren't just accidents waiting to happen...

"Look at me - I'm doing well... I didn't study architecture in school. I didn't graduate from university. I started with a big disadvantage."

Didn't complete any degree, didn't graduate from any university, but, he gets to call himself an architect?

I'm not knocking Mr. Ando, heck, I admire the guy! But I'm being denied to compete with him and with other architects by being denied to take the A.R.E..

Something is very wrong here. The PA State Architect Registration Board is denying me eligibility to sit for the test. They are circumventing my ability to compete against other architects by denying me the taking of the test. Why have a test if a group of my competition is permitted to prevent me from Becoming competition?

Isn't the test the determining action for me to prove that I am fit to practice?

Right now in PA I am permitted to provide services for all residential projects, many other states as well. With my experience I could provide other services to potential clients, but, in being denied to take the A.R.E., I am not permitted to compete.

This sounds like a violation of my right to Fair Trade and Competition.

Mr. Ando, if you are permitted to call yourself an architect, but you have no formal degree, no graduation, no A.R.E. completion, then am I no permitted to do the same? You are a Pritzker Prize winner, - no degree, no graduation, no IDP, no A.R.E and you think You had a big disadvantage?!

Dude, I don't care what his nationality is. I Live in a "Free" country, it's called U.S.A.. If he is permitted to call himself an architect in this country and win the Pritzker then I should be allowed to take the A.R.E. and compete against him and every other architect.

I'm actually headed out tomorrow to visit the Sterling Clark Museum in Williamstown, Massachusetts. Ando has been working on a master plan and the construction of two major projects on campus of the Museum. I'm looking forward to the day away from the office. Along with the Ando projects I will have a viewing of the Van Gogh Summer Exhibit.

Will May....I did have the good fortune of apprenticing into the Profession. Sat for the Exams, passed the exams when NCARB wasn't such a powerful organization. I'm Licensed in two States.

See, the thing is, I admire Mr. Ando and his accomplishments. He is living proof that architecture IS something that isn't learned strictly in the vacuum of a classroom in a school. To really learn architecture one needs on the job or more pointed, in the office experience.

I taught architecture - design & drafting, for 10 years. That activity gave me the incredible opportunity to work with contractors, vendors, engineers AND architects that almost no other experience provided. That was after spending a number of years AS a draftsman in engineering firms. I had the greatest possible education working in a very diverse setting that no studio could possibly match.

Consider this, a "5" year program is 10 semesters. Put them back to back and you only actually have 3 years and 4 months. Not every student gets work in a firm as an intern. And the number of hours I actually WORKED in an office As a drafter WITH engineers AND architects is again unlike any program can match.

Then consider, I have completed IDP when it was a minimum of 5,600 hours. That has been diluted to less than 3,800 hours. My overall time in the profession actually IN offices AND teaching is 38 YEARS!

For a group of people who are my competitors to be able to deny me eligibility to sit for the test is highly unethical in light of someone like Mr. Ando. AND though he was NEVER a member of the AIA, Frank Lloyd Wright was voted to be the greatest architect of the 20th century in a survey of AIA members in 1992. Another "architect" who NEVER completed any formal degree and Never took any A.R.E.. Both of these men in my lifetime!

I do not argue with taking the test, on the contrary, I believe that anyone and everyone should be permitted to sit for the test. Architecture is a Fine Art afterall, not a course of study in any engineering program. I'd be willing to bet that Most architects don't do structural or civil or electrical or piping or ANY of the engineering that goes into a building. I know a few who won't do residential mep OR structural, that's for engineers.

I AM an advocate of architecture. I'm NOT an advocate of architects being in control of who can take the test or control who can complete IDP. That is ethically wrong. I look at the number of people coming out of a 5 year degree and can't find a job. They are forced to take the A.R.E even though they are not prepared or they leave the profession altogether. When you look at Mr. Ando and how he became an architect who actually won the Pritzker, that is absolute proof that a degree from a 5 year program is NOT necessary, not in Europe or any other country. Sadly, my competition is able to prevent me from taking the test, that is absolutely wrong.

Yes I am familiar with that too. After all, what is a stamp? Basically it indicates that if there is a problem, there is someone willing to take responsibility for the problem. Ok, I'm good with that. I trust the training I have received with the numerous architects that were defacto my professors and mentors. This is why I WANT to take the test. Taking any test. the A.R.E. included , validates the education and training one receives in the performance of an activity.

But for a group of people to deny me ( and maybe others ) to take the test, who, if I pass said test, will be my competition, something is wrong with that. If I take the test and pass, I become immediate competition. How is it possible for one firm or group to control who their competition is? Why is it legal for my competition to prevent me from taking the last step in becoming legal competition?

How can the State, any State, permit one service provider, be it a group or one person, to control and prevent another service provider from becoming licensed and therefore becoming competition? Would it be legal for Google to get set up with the State, any State government, create a "board" and be able to tell a potential competitor that the competitor can't take a test that could determine the fitness of the competitor thus rendering the competition to be null, essentially eliminating the competition.

On the flip side, what if the "Board" were to find it beneficial to have an individual be found to be eligible, and sit for the test, if the person passes the test, that person is deemed fit to practice. If on the other hand that person doesn't pass the test, what then? If the "Board" makes the rules, can they overlook the rules when it benefits them?

I find it troubling that the State government is giving my competition the ability to deny me from taking the A.R.E. test and thus eliminating me from becoming competition. Something is wrong here.

Tadao Ando is acting as Design Architect for 152 Elizabeth Street in NYC. Local Architect-of-record is Gabellini Shepard Associates. Ando doesn't need to be registered in the US as long as he uses a local architect-of-record. He can call himself an architect in interviews with very little danger of being accused of misrepresenting himself as long as when he actually works on a building project he partners with someone who is registered. The Pritzker has nothing to do with it, at all.

Will, no one is stopping you from being a designer. Just partner in some form with someone who is registered and get busy designing non-exempt buildings. You can win a Pritzker without being registered in the US.

You say you completed IDP but still aren't eligible for the test. Specifically why?

Aug 31, 15 10:38 pm

Will May,

Do projects in Sweden or Finland or do a project in American Samoa where state licensing laws don't apply or have jurisdiction.

You are an architect by definition of the word in a dictionary. You just can't represent yourself as one in PA until licensed there because they have a law there. Try getting licensed in another state and do reciprocity back into PA.

Maybe we can talk about your situation and brainstorm a few ways to get through the requirements.

PA rules and laws may change in time. Among changes can even be at NCARB level that will make your life easier at the end of the day. IF PA accepts NCARB's BEA even after streamlining it or whatever it transforms into, provide you meet the standards NCARB has so they will issue a "blue cover" copy of your NCARB record.

Wait how can anyone call themselves an architect when they are not an architect? You are either a licensed architect, or you aren't?

I'm am being denied to take the A.R.E.. "Partner in some form"? I would love to partner with someone. But that doesn't help me. I am being denied to become competition because I am not being permitted to take the test. I can't use the title of architect in any form or hold myself out to anyone.

Are you saying that a person can call themselves an architect as long as when he actually works on a project he has to "partner" with a licensed architect?

So, as long as I never do any actual work, I can call myself an architect, is that your position?

Yes I have actually completed the IDP when it required 5,600 hours. That is documented.

The PA Board says I don't meet the minimum requirements. Unfortunately, I can't find any firms that will hire me. And, when I do actually get hired, the Board simply says that what I do is "akin to a drafter" and they simply deny my hours and my experience.

Under PA State Licensure Law, residential projects are exempt. So, using the experience and training of 30+ years I provide my clients with CD's that meet local building codes for building permits. I have personally prepared cd's that are generally equal to those prepared by licensed architects in my region.

A builder provided me with a single family drawing set that cost him nearly triple from an architect I know compared to what I routinely charge. It was a one sheet drawing with plans, elevations, typical wall section and some details. The builder was billed nearly 160 hours. What I saw, I typically provide between 40 to 60 hours. I even create a 3D model of the finished project and "walk" my clients thru the model. He was shocked!

And the kicker, the architect who allegedly produced the drawings ( he didn't do any of the production ) is on the PA Architects Registration Board - my competition.

You are wrong when you say that no one is stopping me from being a designer. Denying me to take the A.R.E IS denying me the ability to compete on equal footing as an Architect.

But hey, if I can call myself an architect BEFORE doing any actual work and then call myself a designer to THEN do the work, I'm ok with that.

Aug 31, 15 11:02 pm

I just looked, you still might be able to get licensed without a degree.

Will May,

Just meeting the 3740 hours is not enough. You need to meet the 3 years duration rule.

Show documentation of completing that. This means, document 2080 hours x 3 which equals 6240 hours of work to be on the safe side of meeting 3 years of FULL-TIME work. If possible, document 6500 to 7000 hours of acceptable experience to meet the IDP experience requirements just to have a safety margin. If you don't have an NAAB accredited degree, you may need additional work hours.

What degree do you have?

If you don't have a degree... you will need 3 years = 6240 work hours (and completion of IDP training hours) and up to 6 years (I don't know if they have some credit for existing education... do check and confirm whether or not that is applicable).

Worst case.... they don't give any years off for pre-professional degrees in architecture or other education:

12,480 works hours under an architect + 6240 work hours completing IDP. IDP requires at least so many hours in Experience Setting A. This is in ADDITION to the 12,480 work hours you must document.

TOTAL: 18,720 hours of work. Of which 14,340 hours is under a licensed Architect / NCARB Experience Setting A. If you meet or exceed this AND the total 18,720 hours then you should be allowed to take the exam.

Do you meet this? If so, you should be good.

I would probably recommend that you fulfill your state's internal experience based alternate path. You have to meet ALL the experience requirement before beginning ARE. This is normal and standard for experience based alternate path to licensure.

Otherwise, get an NAAB accredited architecture degree and have at least 6,240 work hours (completing ALL of IDP requirements).

Aug 31, 15 11:12 pm

Will May,

I'll be very clear. Architectural licensing that you are familiar with in the United States is state based licensing. Every state's legal authority ends at the state border. All the states in the United States requires licensing. However, there are territories of the United States that is not governed by ANY state law and some do not have licensing requirement. The federal government does not have any architectural licensing laws on the U.S. Code.

When you are practicing in foreign countries, you are working on entirely different set of laws. There are some countries that do not regulate the practice of architecture or the architect title. If you do projects located in those countries, you can use the Architect title on the plans. Some countries are a lot like the U.S. before be began the architect licensing laws in the 1890s and first half of the 20th century... although they do have building code regulations defining the standards for construction.

Aug 31, 15 11:19 pm

The licensing laws of Pennsylvania or any of the states pertains to commercial activity associated with marketing to clients in the state and projects within the states. If however, your project is located in another country or in a U.S. Territory that doesn't impose architectural licensing, and your marketing effort is in those places, you are outside the legal scope of authority of the architectural licensing boards of any U.S. State.

I DO projects, the Board simply ignores them. They simply, categorically, say, no.

My competition, protected by the State, gets to make the rules and stop competition.

I DO architecture, plain and simple. I enlist my clients as THE designers of Their projects. I assist them in the creation of the space THEY want. Together, client and me, looks at the function of the space and defines the scope of the space. I provide oversight on codes that are incorporated in the design THEY want. Then, I do the technical cad production. We get building code review, make changes, if any to satisfy building officials, get a building permit, obtain bids, award project and build - sometimes an addition, new home, deck, garage or pool house. To me, I do what the architects I have worked with over my 24 years in the profession. I know some architects use Revit, or Archicad, or AutoCAD or Chief Architect of draw by hand. Regardless of How the cd's are produced, architecture IS performed.

So if anyone in Sweden or Finland or American Samoa needs drawings, for their project, Please, feel free to contact me. I'll use the examples of nearly a dozen architects who I produced the CD's for and apply those concepts to their projects.

As a Vocational Educator, I took 13 years worth of drawings I produced and created a book for my students to use a "template" for a set of cd's they could apply to any project. A library of sorts that they could pick and choose applicable details for similar projects. My students produced cd's that my Craft Advisory Board reviewed. Various engineers and a few architects I worked with prior to becoming an instructor, had a pool of people for their offices for ten years!

Architecture really is Form, Function and all manner of Detail for a space. Getting owners, be it individual or public, to define the space is up to them. I'm just the facilitator to document the project for construction. Not any different to any other person who does this work.

Ando once punched a contractor for getting out of line, you are correct Will, don't be letting Balkins jack an Ando thread.

17 year old Ando the boxer

“Boxing is a combat sport in which you rely only on yourself. In the months preceding a bout, you dedicate yourself to training body and mind through practice and fasting. It is a draconian sport on which you gamble your life, embracing both solitude and glory.

My experiences as a boxer, the intensity of leaping into the ring, the loneliness of having to fight utterly by oneself, relying on no one, became my creative touchstone.” - Tadao Ando

Sep 1, 15 3:02 am

Will May, didn't you make it about you?

Calm down and think this out without getting bombastic and ballistic. If anyone here knows your pain, I am probably one of a handful who does.

Lets use that energy constructively. Perhaps, it is better to direct this to a separate discussion thread.

AIA has nothing whatsoever to do with regulating licensure. The people telling you no may be AIA members, but their membership in AIA is totally unrelated to their authority to allow you to sit for the exam.

Mr. May, I've seen a number of different versions of your resume online over the years, and your laments on various online forums. One of the issues is that you've had many, many more jobs than you tend to list on any one version of your resume. It's difficult to see how so very many situations, many of which are extremely short-term (a few months or a few weeks) could possibly give you the equivalent of several years of full time experience with progressive responsibilities, regardless of what it adds up to in hours.

Your job history is also a continuum, with small amounts of definitely-architecture-related experience (jobs in architecture firms), much larger amounts of rather tangentially related experience (jobs drafting details for a window company, selling real-estate, teaching AutoCAD), and some fairly large blocks of time spent in jobs not related at all (rounding up shopping carts at Giant Eagle.)

You've been beating your head against a wall about this for over 15 years now - maybe longer, that's just what I've seen on various sites - and Pennsylvania still doesn't want to budge (yes, they still have on the books the option to allow the "experience route" on a case-by-case basis at the board's discretion, but the board never does let anyone through that way anymore.)

Move to another state, get a degree, or pick a different career.

Sep 1, 15 5:09 pm

A lot of those are probably contract drafting jobs. It would be independent contracting work. Some states in-state experience requirement aside from NCARB's IDP is limited to bona fide employment experience not independent contractor experience. Therefore, they might not accept them. However, Will May, you indicated experience that your past employers are not verifying. The licensing board requires a third-party validation from your past employers because they need to validate the nature of the experience. The W-2 record only indicates how many hours you worked. Hell man, you could have been employed as a contract janitor or something.

The policy is NOT to trust the applicant for their own word because in the past, some applicants flat out and bold face lied. This is why they need to know the nature of the work experience validated by a third party familiar with your work involvement. Especially from your supervisor.

Pennsylvania will allow someone to go through the experience path because it is statutory. They are required by law to allow that path to licensure to continue. They will conduct the practice similar to other states like Arizona, Washington, California and others. EVERY one of them will be requesting a validation from those employers. This is substantiate your claim. Why would a past employer not validate your work experience, Will May? Is there a problem with your experience claim?

They will allow experience path because they have to or that is ground for lawsuit. They have to maintain in their administrative rules the policy for experience based path requirement. No licensing board may pick and choose what statutes of the licensing law to enforce. They must enforce all of it at all times.

Again, every person is a case by case. Some require more closer look because it is less conventional.

Section 8. Examination and qualification of applicants.

(a) Any individual of good character, who is a legal resident of Pennsylvania or who is in the employ of or under the direct supervision of an architect licensed with the board and who maintains a practice in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania under a permanent Pennsylvania business address may apply for a certificate under this act.

(b) Each applicant for a certificate shall submit evidence satisfactory to the board that the applicant holds a professional degree in architecture from an accredited school and has obtained at least three years' practical experience in the employ of or under the direct supervision of a registered architect or as part of the applicant's academic training. In lieu of a professional degree in architecture, the board may accept evidence of at least six years' practical experience obtained in the employ of or under the direct supervision of a registered architect which may include academic training. The board may require that applicants who do not hold a professional degree in architecture must first pass a qualifying examination before being admitted to the licensing examination described in subsection (c). The board may at its discretion adopt as its standards for minimum education and experience, the current guidelines on education, training and experience equivalents adopted by the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards.

(c) Each applicant for licensing who satisfies subsections (a) and (b) shall submit to a licensing examination. The examination shall cover such technical and professional subjects and shall be graded on such basis as the board shall by regulation prescribe. The board may at its discretion adopt the examination and recommended grading procedures adopted by the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards.

(d) The board may require applicants under this section and section 9 to appear for a personal interview.

Basically, 6 years of experience in lieu of the 5 year degree plus 3 years experience resulting in completing the required IDP training hours to be completed for a total of 9 years. It is basically like it is in Washington state.

The option is there but all the requirements needs to be verified experience.

I think the hang up is either in not completing all of IDP training hours or the office education/training credit is not thoroughly validated by the employers. Get them all verified. How to do that, consult the licensing board in PA.

This sounds more like Will May's former employers f---ing him by not going through the work of submitting verification or there is contest to the details of Will May's experience with former employers and the former employers.

Big question that will likely arise is what exactly was his role. Do they qualify? Was he actually under supervision by an architect? The details may seem to be arising out of that.

Will May, can your ascertain exactly what experience report (which employer and employment) are they having issue with? There is probably a conflict in details. Former employer not recalling your roles and responsibilities as you do? They aren't just going to take your word.... you're the applicant. Remember what I said about the policy of trusting the applicant... DON'T TRUST THE APPLICANT. They tend to lie because they are desperate. This is why they want validation from a third party such as former employers. Only when both parties agree will they accept the experience.

I think you need to look at your former employers.

Hypothetical Example: Working as a real estate agent for 3 years and only doing maybe 3 months worth of design work is still maybe at most 3 months of potentially qualifiable experience.

Pennsylvania hasn't let anybody through by the experience route in years. All of those clauses in what you quoted state that the board "may" allow it - not must. It also states that they "may" elect to use the current education requirements as the threshold - which is what they're doing. The don't have the qualifying pre-test in place anymore - I don't think that has existed in more than 30 years.

The jobs I'm referring to weren't contract drafting jobs - they were various full time employee situations in architecture firms and building product companies. There's a long hire-and-fire history here, with a lot of stints on unemployment. It's a flaw of the current iteration of IDP that it doesn't require longer term, steady employment situations. This is what happened when they removed the 10-week full time or 6-month half-time requirements - it lets people cobble together years of experience out of positions so brief that they barely had time to learn their coworkers' names, let alone develop any real experience base.

The problem is one of job protection that licensed architects are able to exploit. My work is not all that different than the architects I once worked with. After being involved with every aspect of architectural projects, I am able to do just about anything residentially and many things commercially.

All I'm asking to do is take the same test that my competition is permitted to take to become licensed.

NCARB is lowering, not raising the IDP criteria. That of itself is an indication that a great number of people are not either able to get work in the profession after racking up a $100,000 or more student loan or can't find steady work. So, on one hand NCARB is lowering requirements for graduates but denying me and probably others from taking the test. Essentially, my direct competition is protected while I am being denied to become licensed.

The nature of the profession IS Hire & Fire. Most firms can't run sustained work activities. My own resume is a testament to that. One firm I worked with went from 13 people to 2 people in a 3 year period. In 36 months, I was the first to be let go. Eleven other people either left on their own, knowing their time was limited so they left before they got let go or they were told on a Friday afternoon at 3 pm their were no longer needed.

There is a ton of work that I could get IF I was able to get my license. But the general public has been told that unlicensed designers are not knowledgeable. Heck, if you are an architect saying that, it must be true! Right?!

In the last 6 years I have produced 99 projects, some under direct supervision of licensed architects, some on my own. I know what I can and can't do. I have no reservations that I could partner with a more experienced architect in a "joint-venture" and produce just about anything short of 10 stories. I can set up office networks, establish CAD Standards and create CAD libraries. I can design just about anything, within reason and produce cd's with minimal assistance. The problem I have is finding a partner that can sustain a work flow. That and the Board denying me eligibility to sit for the A.R.E..

If you just want to take the test, just transfer your record to a state that allows the experience-only route, and take the test. You don't have to be a resident of the state, or work in the state, and you don't have to take the test in the state - you can test at your local testing center.

look Will, I'll stamp it, whatever, I might as well make some money on this racket ;)

Sep 1, 15 11:13 pm

kjdt,

I don't think they officially restricting the experience based path otherwise, why would they even have that option in their application forms? I think that they just make it harder and deliberately do so. There could just be a limited number of people even bothering to get licensed by experience. It could be just that. Many are probably some sort of combination education/experience. Very few are totally with no degrees. It wasn't very long ago that NCARB made it possible for people to complete IDP without having an architecture degree.

Therefore, when the licensing board required IDP before people could be admitted into IDP without a degree effectively made licensure by experience path impossible to be completed or very difficult. When NCARB changed their policy on IDP enrollment date and all came into effect, we were in a recession. Therefore, more people are probably trickling on on that avenue. Lets see in the years to come.

They are still allowing one to go through the experience path. They simply elected to not require a pre-test.

They are, however, still administering the path to licensure. It is even in the form that is still available. The difference is they take more scrutiny in the experience and nature of the experience.

If Will May was to precisely explain which work experience or places of employ they are not accepting then that can be a place to look at and discern why they aren't counting the experience as acceptable.

I bet it more has to do with the former employer not approving / validating the experience.

Sep 2, 15 2:00 am

kjdt:

"The jobs I'm referring to weren't contract drafting jobs - they were various full time employee situations in architecture firms and building product companies. There's a long hire-and-fire history here, with a lot of stints on unemployment. It's a flaw of the current iteration of IDP that it doesn't require longer term, steady employment situations. This is what happened when they removed the 10-week full time or 6-month half-time requirements - it lets people cobble together years of experience out of positions so brief that they barely had time to learn their coworkers' names, let alone develop any real experience base."

I don't see anything explicitly or necessarily indicating full-time employee situations at an architecture firm. It maybe because you saw a version of the resume that I don't recall seeing. If you complain about the long hire and fire history, it might be because it isn't necessarily hire and fire but project duration contract employment. This is norm. Sure there is also the hire and fire or lay off. The problem is architecture business is seasonal like the construction business in many places because that is the norm of how projects happens in many places.

Why are we having the hire and fire problem? Too many Architects don't know how to conduct a business to keep workers working year round. Why? I think there is a lot of arguments that can be debated from all sorts of angles.

Richard, as I said already, I have seen many versions of Mr. May's resume. His current resume leaves out the vast majority of his employers, particularly in architecture firms. I've also seen his posts over the years on several different forums. He has repeatedly related stories of having been fired from architecture firm positions - this is not simply an issue of project-duration situations.

As for Pennsylvania's "experience route" option - it's not really an option. The board doesn't let anyone through that way, and hasn't in many years. Yes, the form exists, and yes it's an option in the regulations - however the regulations also give the board the option to use NCARB's current experience and education requirements as the threshold - and that's what they have been doing for at least the last 15 years. If you don't believe me, look through the people licensed during that period and find even one that got through without an architecture degree.

I can confirm that nobody gets through Pennsylvania licensing this way. It may have been a viable option once upon a time, but it isn't now. One of my partners tried for years - he has over 25 years of full time experience in architecture, was originally trained as a drafter in the military, has thoroughly documented all of his experience including all supervisor sign-offs, successfully completed IDP, and fulfilled all other requirements. He is now licensed in two other states, but PA would not allow him to test when he tried to pursue initial licensing there about 5 years ago, and they will not grant him reciprocity now.