#62 - Joe Dumars. “Joe D” is what they called him in Detroit. He and Isiah Thomas formed one of the deadliest backcourts of the late 80’s and early 90’s. He was one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all-time playing some of the games best at big times including Clyde Drexler, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan. He made 5 All-D teams for his efforts. He could also shoot the lights out if need be.

Did anybody even give any reasoning for Joe Dumars. There really isn't a good arguement to put him over Moncrief and Dennis Johnson, two similar players, who played in roughly the same era, and were better than Dumars.

I'm voting for Sidney Moncrief again.

Sidney Moncrief may be the most underrated player of all-time. Moncrief was possibly the greatest man-to-man defender of all-time, better than Bobby Jones, better than Pippen, etc. He wasn't just a one-trick pony though, he was one of the most well rounded guards of all-time. Infact, the Milwaukee Bucks honored his versatility by placing him on a Buck's media guide cover dressed as Superman.

Moncrief had modest scoring averages(22.5 ppg career high), however, he was one of the most effiecient scoring guards of all-time(career ts% of .590) as his ranking of 25th all-time in true shooting percentage shows us. His scoring was even more remarkable considering how poor of an outside shooter he was. He averaged just twelve 3-point field goals a season, but still had five 20ppg seasons.

Moncrief was also a great playmaker, and ran Milwaukee's offense along with Van Lier/Hodges, and to an extent Paul Pressey. His assist averages are also modest, but with so many great playmakers on the floor, and Moncrief being the first scoring option, he wasn't expected to be the main distributor.

Another one of Moncrief's strengths is his rebounding. Possibly the best 6'3 rebounder of all-time, as his career high of 2.8 offensive rebounds, and career high 6.7 total rebounds demonstrate.

Moncrief's main strength was obviously his world class defence. Sidney was only listed at 6'3", and weighed just 180 pounds. However, Moncrief was as quick as hell, and even though he was thin, he was still stronger than many of the players he guarded(also had a 36 inch vert). Those two traits allowed him to keep up with anybody on the floor, just ask Michael Jordan. Here's a quote from MJ about Moncrief's defense...
"When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."
-Michael Jordan
Not only was Moncrief possibly the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, his strength allowed him to bang inside with guys much large than him. A popular myth among Moncrief fans is that the NBA invented the defensive player of the year award so that they could give an award to Moncrief, who was one of the most liked, hardest-working players in the NBA. Looking at his stats, it's a bit of a stretch to put him here, but he had all the intangibles a coach could ask for. Not only was he a terrific defender, but he was a great leader and motivator, and was undisputedly the captain of the 80's Bucks' eams.

Some of Moncrief's NBA achievements include...
2 Time Defensive Player of the Year
5 Time All-NBA team
5 Time All-star
4 Time All-Defensive First Team, 1 2nd team
4th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 7th in MVP voting.

The only knocks on Moncrief is he never won a ring, and he had a short career. Moncrief never won a ring because of Larry Bird and the Celtics eiminating the Bucks time after time. His short career can also be contributed
to a chronic knee injury and a variety of other nagging injuries.

Moncrief was also conspicuously absent from both the NBA's top 50 player's alltime, and slam magazines top 75. However, him not being on the top 50 players was highly debatable, and Moncrief had a much better career than about a third of Slam's list, further showing how underappreciated he is.

Did anybody even give any reasoning for Joe Dumars. There really isn't a good arguement to put him over Moncrief and Dennis Johnson, two similar players, who played in roughly the same era, and were better than Dumars.

I'm voting for Sidney Moncrief again.

Sidney Moncrief may be the most underrated player of all-time. Moncrief was possibly the greatest man-to-man defender of all-time, better than Bobby Jones, better than Pippen, etc. He wasn't just a one-trick pony though, he was one of the most well rounded guards of all-time. Infact, the Milwaukee Bucks honored his versatility by placing him on a Buck's media guide cover dressed as Superman.

Moncrief had modest scoring averages(22.5 ppg career high), however, he was one of the most effiecient scoring guards of all-time(career ts% of .590) as his ranking of 25th all-time in true shooting percentage shows us. His scoring was even more remarkable considering how poor of an outside shooter he was. He averaged just twelve 3-point field goals a season, but still had five 20ppg seasons.

Moncrief was also a great playmaker, and ran Milwaukee's offense along with Van Lier/Hodges, and to an extent Paul Pressey. His assist averages are also modest, but with so many great playmakers on the floor, and Moncrief being the first scoring option, he wasn't expected to be the main distributor.

Another one of Moncrief's strengths is his rebounding. Possibly the best 6'3 rebounder of all-time, as his career high of 2.8 offensive rebounds, and career high 6.7 total rebounds demonstrate.

Moncrief's main strength was obviously his world class defence. Sidney was only listed at 6'3", and weighed just 180 pounds. However, Moncrief was as quick as hell, and even though he was thin, he was still stronger than many of the players he guarded(also had a 36 inch vert). Those two traits allowed him to keep up with anybody on the floor, just ask Michael Jordan. Here's a quote from MJ about Moncrief's defense...
"When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."
-Michael Jordan
Not only was Moncrief possibly the greatest perimeter defender of all-time, his strength allowed him to bang inside with guys much large than him. A popular myth among Moncrief fans is that the NBA invented the defensive player of the year award so that they could give an award to Moncrief, who was one of the most liked, hardest-working players in the NBA. Looking at his stats, it's a bit of a stretch to put him here, but he had all the intangibles a coach could ask for. Not only was he a terrific defender, but he was a great leader and motivator, and was undisputedly the captain of the 80's Bucks' eams.

Some of Moncrief's NBA achievements include...
2 Time Defensive Player of the Year
5 Time All-NBA team
5 Time All-star
4 Time All-Defensive First Team, 1 2nd team
4th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 7th in MVP voting.

The only knocks on Moncrief is he never won a ring, and he had a short career. Moncrief never won a ring because of Larry Bird and the Celtics eiminating the Bucks time after time. His short career can also be contributed
to a chronic knee injury and a variety of other nagging injuries.

Moncrief was also conspicuously absent from both the NBA's top 50 player's alltime, and slam magazines top 75. However, him not being on the top 50 players was highly debatable, and Moncrief had a much better career than about a third of Slam's list, further showing how underappreciated he is.

I'd take both DJ and Sid over Dumars. I think they were just better players then Joe Dumars.

I like this thread, and overall the list has turned out quite nice. But I must moan about something.....

It's a grime ranking Artis Gilmore that low!!!!!, and below e.g. Rovert Parish. Why players who started at ABA are always underrated? On average ABA teams were better than the NBA teams when the leagues merged, ABA WASN'T WEAK!!

Gilmore was a regular season MVP, a finals MVP, 6 time All-first teamer, 4 time all-defensive teamer, 11 time all star (aba and nba combined), all star mvp (ok, that doesnt mean anything), rookie of the year, 3rd all time shot-blocker (nba/aba combined), 5th all time rebounder (combined), 18th all time scorer (combined), all time no 1 FG %, one of the best defenders ever...

And as a college player all time leader in division one RPG.

If he played his whole career in NBA, he would be an all-time top 25 player.

I like this thread, and overall the list has turned out quite nice. But I must moan about something.....

It's a grime ranking Artis Gilmore that low!!!!!, and below e.g. Rovert Parish. Why players who started at ABA are always underrated? On average ABA teams were better than the NBA teams when the leagues merged, ABA WASN'T WEAK!!

Gilmore was a regular season MVP, a finals MVP, 6 time All-first teamer, 4 time all-defensive teamer, 11 time all star (aba and nba combined), all star mvp (ok, that doesnt mean anything), rookie of the year, 3rd all time shot-blocker (nba/aba combined), 5th all time rebounder (combined), 18th all time scorer (combined), all time no 1 FG %, one of the best defenders ever...

And as a college player all time leader in division one RPG.

If he played his whole career in NBA, he would be an all-time top 25 player.

Artis should have been a tad bit higher but I don't know about a top 25 player all-time. It wouls till depend on what team he landed on.