Do not blame God, blame the Christian hypocrites!

I wasn't considering my faith in this, Christ actually said to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's. Religion has
nothing to do with it for one

No, the Kingdom of God has something to do with it - the economy. I'd hate to mention religion here as I'm not in one and I'm explaining where
I'm standing.

Jesus and his disciples said a lot of things about money/wealth/pride of life. Almost all bad, Jesus did not even say one thing good with it, except
for wasting away(not saving) until it's gone!

They do have a relationship with the worldly system. To Jesus, it's hate! To Jesus it has absolutely no value and Jesus said it multiple times, it
drove many of his disciples away!! It is not an emotionless chatter for someone to say the same thing over and over! To God, it is an abomination!

If you believe Jesus and his disciples are saying all those horrible things against the worldly system for nothing, then you are worshiping a
lunatic, don't you think?

But why do MOST Christians still choose to live beyond the basic needs - food, clothing, cheap apartment, cheap-used car, keeping few
possessions, etc...

But instead, choose to spend most their earnings on themselves and friends! They really don't care about the poor!! 10% on tithes won't keep you
away from Hell!!

I know what you mean. I have a preacher who lives right down the hill from me, and he has a nice collection of classic cars, all at the expense of his
congregation, most of whom are dirt poor and can barely afford their tithes every Sunday, we live in a failed coal town. Does he visit sick people?
Not to my knowledge. I don't subscribe to your theory that God allows this or that, plainly the real God would never get involved in the affairs of
humans, to do so would quickly negate free will.

If you believe Jesus and his disciples are saying all those horrible things against the worldly system for nothing, then you are worshiping a lunatic,
don't you think?

The "world" focuses on material wealth and earthly pleasure, not the kingdom to come, they serve mammon, the pursuit of worldly power and wealth.
The early church were socialists, they would sell off all their property and live together in a communal setting and distribute the wealth amoung
eachother equally so that no brother or sister was above another but all would be equal. It was about taking care of eachother, the spiritual family
tied together by a tie that's stronger than blood and steel. It wasn't that the first church didn't have money, they did have money but they shared
what they had with eachother, it was literally a family setting. You can read about this in Acts 5, thats why Ananias and Sapphira were selling off
their property to give to the church but in their greed they lied and tried to withold some for profit after declaring they gave it all and
thats when God struck them dead. It wasn't that they wanted to keep some extra, but that they lied about it instead of telling the truth.

Originally posted by autowrenchI don't subscribe to your theory that God allows this or that, plainly the real God would never get
involved in the affairs of humans, to do so would quickly negate free will.

That is not my belief, maybe similar but to make it clear here it is..

We own nothing! All people, secular or religious. All our resources are God's. I forgot which verse is that in the Bible but....

God is our Master and we are all servants. God has to go someplace to do something so he left all his possessions in our 'care'..

So we use Earth, one of God's possessions and we treat like our own giant playground! We drive all His animals away so we can cut His trees for our
beautiful homes, and mind the Earth for our techy gadgets and cars!!

We also abuse/exploit many of His other servants.

Then God comes back!! May God have mercy on your souls!! But according to the scriptures, not a chance!!

I'm rather confused as to why you're so angry. And you're not really addressing my original point that the cost of labor is determined by the
laborer, not the employer. And the only story from the Bible where Christ directly deals with something remotely in this context is in Matthew
20:1-16. Where He basically says the man who hires someone who agrees to work for a certain price doesn't do that person harm, they agreed to work
for a specific amount of money, that the person had the opportunity to reject the job if it wasn't what he felt the job was worth. Here is Christ's
response to the person who felt they were "underpaid":

" ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to
this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’"

I'm rather confused as to why you're so angry. And you're not really addressing my original point that the cost of labor is determined by the
laborer, not the employer. And the only story from the Bible where Christ directly deals with something remotely in this context is in Matthew
20:1-16. Where He basically says the man who hires someone who agrees to work for a certain price doesn't do that person harm, they agreed to work
for a specific amount of money, that the person had the opportunity to reject the job if it wasn't what he felt the job was worth. Here is Christ's
response to the person who felt they were "underpaid":

" ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to
this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’"

edit on 26-9-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Do you know where that idea works? The land of freelancing. I can, right now, with the resources at my fingertips, find GOBS of work (that I may or
may not be able to do, depending on talent and tools). I find one that I can do, at a price I am willing to do it for, and get to work. Is it steady?
No. Is it work? Yes. Is it consistent? No.

Employment... regular 40 hours (or whatever you can find these days)- not so much. You can ask for, say $10 an hour, and a) the employer will about
laugh in your face, b) Not hire you for bing "overqualified", c) tell you you're getting minimum, and depending how much you like eating and having a
roof over your head- you'll comply... Edited: rarely, one does get lucky. RARELY.

If you were fired tomorrow, and had to find work to keep up with your bills, and all you were going to find was minimum wage jobs- what in the world
gives you the idea you can negotiate for more- in this job market, and with the way employers are now? Your reasoning and opinions make no sense to
those of us who have worked jobs.... Or are you a freelancer, and have lost the concept?

And when there are dozens of people willing to work for LESS, well....
yeah. The employer says: "here's what I'm offering. take it or leave it to the next guy in line."

That's the laborer determining the cost? No, that's the employer taking advantage of people who are so desperate they will "take it", because if
they "leave it", they starve.

Puleez, bro.

Well, all those "next guys in line" are laborers. If no one accepts the terms, the employer must raise the wage. Still the price of labor is
determined by the laborer. An employer, in a free market system, cannot force manpower. If someone is willing to work for that was then the price
for that job is determined at that point. Let's say I'm having a new roof put on and I get an estimate of $15,000 from company X, and a second bid
by company Y for $10,000, is company X justified in getting mad? Let's say I counter offer to company Y for $8,000 and they agree to do it for that
much, is that fair? They could have said "No way, we can't do that job for eight thousand."

If any laborer refuses to do the work then who does it?? Union or not? The price of all labor is determined by the laborer. The only exception
would be slavery, the wage for slave labor is not determined by the laborer.

NuT, have you worked in the trenches? I mean, at the lowest entry level jobs -- like, scraping dishes in a student cafeteria; or, housekeeping at a
hotel?

You really seem to be missing the point here, though your description of "free to accept or decline" seems like what we are supposed to believe we
have going on here. The thing is, we don't. The employer sets the wage, and as long as there is one person willing to take the job at that rate,
they will not hire the person seeking a more fair and adequate wage.

In this world, if you don't have money to exchange for food (or the land to grow your own on), you are going to starve. That makes us slaves.

Heck, it's not even sun-up yet, and here I am probably not making sense. Sorry to derail the thread, ahnggk. Yeah, I agree with you, Capitalism is
anathema to Christianity. Absolutely.

As long as there are UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE who need to eat, the employer sets the wage. That's all there is to it.
If only this were a world where everyone knew they could eat, and were free to explore their own unique talents and interests...
if only.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Heck, it's not even sun-up yet, and here I am probably not making sense. Sorry to derail the thread, ahnggk. Yeah, I agree with you, Capitalism is
anathema to Christianity. Absolutely.

No problem. We cannot ignore the traditional business model - for a true Christian will do everything opposite the traditional business model!

Every work of a true Christian will manifest. They will be the light and the beacon of hope in everything they do even in business.

Today, there are very very few businesses that you can call a beacon of hope. Almost everything including most put up by Christians, follow the
traditional business model - the evil one.

A business following Christian principles will NOT make you rich, not even remotely! even if the product is something so useful, so radical, and so
world changing... For even in the products, the works of the Holy Spirit will manifest. It won't be an ordinary product - unlike any others, but
very radical and beyond the expectations of the world...

...For one thing it can do, it will greatly benefit those who have none - the poor and the lost.

Sorry, but I've been in the secular business for so long, my dad owns one, my relatives has their own, I've co-owned my dad's. Now I disgust every
bit of it! I told my dad, by God's grace it will change!!!

Originally posted by wildtimes
If only this were a world where everyone knew they could eat, and were free to explore their own unique talents and interests...

I agree, it definitely seems like a noble goal. And there is such a world, it just isn't here.

Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and your soul will delight in the richest of fare. (Isaiah 55:1-2 NIV)

Isaiah 55 is commonly held to be about the future formation of the Kingdom of God.

For his part, every "utopia" that man has attempted to create has been an unmitigated disaster.

for a true Christian will do everything opposite the traditional business model!

Again, I agree with you in theory.

I no longer participate in the "business model" except as a thrifty consumer who believes in upcycling/repurposing and making do. I couldn't stand
the hypocrisy, greed, and apathy toward the workers (and even sometimes the clients) I found out there. I refused to do the wrong thing.

I had to leave every job because I couldn't keep my mouth shut about what I saw, and because it made me sick to be expected to be party to it.

I'm not an affiliated "Christian" per se, but I believe in doing the right thing, which I understand is presented as what he taught. So, yes, I
agree with what Jesus Christ is reported to have said about treating others with kindness and disdaining material success....

Anyway, sun is now up, and I've got to go out and play the consumer. Sigh.

For his part, every "utopia" that man has attempted to create has been an unmitigated disaster.

We (mankind) have a talent for creating disasters. Unfortunately.

Because we keep trying to reinvent the wheel, when it's irreparably broken. We have to do SOMETHING ELSE than what we've tried -- with disastrous
results -- heretofore. The thing is, if we can imagine it, theoretically we could accomplish it. It's just getting everyone on board that is the
problem.

Of course I have, when I was growing up all the jobs I had were minimum wage, the hardest was bailing hay for 2¢ a bale. I've also bussed and waited
on tables, and done dishes. I've always had labor jobs. Wages are always controlled by labor Wild, the employer can set the price at whatever he
wants but if that's too low for the market no one will take the job and the employer must raise the wage. When any laborer accepts a wage that's the
price for the job.

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