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View Poll Results: Would you support more restrictions on guns if they had the potential to save lives?

Re: Gun Control

Originally Posted by haymarket

Those claiming to be "Australian" could be almost anything on that list.

As for the point you want me to speak to..... I am not sure what I can say about it. Again, lets please put our cards on the table. I get the distinct and clear impression you are talking about RACE as in skin color particularly in America. I get the clear impression that the message is that good decent god fearing white folks would be doing just well with gun statistics were it not for those degenerate minorities messing it up for everybody.

No, I am not referring to race. I speaking of culture. Race, rarely, restricts one to being part of a particular culture, but can restrict you from being part of a "sub-culture". After all, you do not see many white "African-Americans" but you do see and meet some just plain Americans with black skin pigmentation. I would say that a sub-culture of poverty or economic disparity, not race, is the center of a lot of our violent crime. Race only becomes part of the issue when members of a particular race try to build a sub-culture for specific ethnicities.

Australians can all be part of a mono-culture and still have multiple ethnic origins. A Culture is not necessarily built upon race. The vast majority of Australians, far more than the US, are "white". The British maintained control of Australia much longer than they did the US, more strictly controlled immigration and set the base culture there. Even when immigrants came, they were assimilated into the existing culture.

One cultural distinction between Australia and the US is and has been gun ownership and it's origins. The US revolted against Britain. Australia did not. The US used different laws for gun ownership through out our history than what the British and later the Australians have had. Since the revolution and up to 1903, ownership of personal weapons with military application, were not only allowed, but were mandated as part of our Defense strategy. Neither Britain, nor Australia, ever had that kind of policy. Our revolution and subsequent approach to gun ownership clearly influenced and continues to influence our culture where guns are concerned and our culture diverged from Britain at the time of the Revolution, Australia diverged from Britain, if it really has, much later than the US and did not involve revolution.

Australian gun laws have never actually been the same as the US. Their gun culture is predicated upon the needs of being a frontier settlement while the US gun culture was started and is predicated upon Armed citizens being part of our National Defense.

Also, while also settled by the British, we also were settled by other Europeans seeking freedoms that could not be obtained in the European cultures, chief among them being Religious Freedom. Australia was originally settled by the British using prisoners. While some were sent to the US prior to the revolution, it was not used in the American Colonies to the extent it was used in Australia. New York used to be New Amsterdam until the British took it from the Dutch. We also got some cultural references from the French and the Spanish. Not so in Australia.

Re: Gun Control

Originally Posted by Blackdog

It is an example and it is the same for most large urban centers...

Don't have to, I have the national break down here...

The U.S. Justice Department provides a breakdown of homicides by the race of both the victim and offender. Looking at the data for 2005 (the latest year available), we find that whites committed 48.0% of all murders and blacks committed 51.2% of all murders. However, whites outnumber blacks in the population. In fact, non-Hispanic whites are about 69% of the population and blacks are about 13%. These statistics alone, shows that blacks are 13% of the population, but commit 51.2% of the murders, indicate that blacks commit a seriously disproportionate number of murders." - Black on Black Crime Coalition

Not trying to weasel out of anything. My position on this is one of two things
1- so what? We are all Americans and regardless of white and black we are in this together and we rise and fall as a nation together.
2- so according to you then this is the direct responsibility and problem of degenerate minorities who are ruining America for everbody else and they are so hopeless and beyond civilization atha we should just say "screw the damn dark savages and let them wallow in their own filth"?

I know which position mine is.

Which is yours?

__________________________________________________ _
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Re: Gun Control

OK, I suppose rape and assault make no difference to you. No problem. Yes it worked real well. So in other words rare mass murders are gone but rape and assaults have gotten much worse. Got ya.

Yes they are. I don't see why Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics would need to lie about it.

And upping all other crime... allot. I am not insisting on ****. You can comment in those threads if you like. Got nothing to do with anything here. Nice red herring though.

Just moronic.

A really honest question for you:

If we cannot even agree on what the stats are and which stats we should be looking at- is there any hope for any discussion about those statistics?

__________________________________________________ _
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Re: Gun Control

Originally Posted by haymarket

Not trying to weasel out of anything. My position on this is one of two things
1- so what? We are all Americans and regardless of white and black we are in this together and we rise and fall as a nation together.
2- so according to you then this is the direct responsibility and problem of degenerate minorities who are ruining America for everbody else and they are so hopeless and beyond civilization atha we should just say "screw the damn dark savages and let them wallow in their own filth"?

I know which position mine is.

Which is yours?

OK, you admit that gun crime, or in this case murder in general, is to be addressed nationally. In other words, all laws are federal now? What you, and many leftists, have wanted all along, but were simply too afraid to ask for all at once. The answer to everything by the left is for application of more federal gov't power. "We" are all in this together now. Yes they can!

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

Re: Gun Control

Originally Posted by haymarket

Not trying to weasel out of anything. My position on this is one of two things
1- so what? We are all Americans and regardless of white and black we are in this together and we rise and fall as a nation together.
2- so according to you then this is the direct responsibility and problem of degenerate minorities who are ruining America for everbody else and they are so hopeless and beyond civilization atha we should just say "screw the damn dark savages and let them wallow in their own filth"?

I know which position mine is. Which is yours?

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Originally Posted by haymarket

A really honest question for you:

If we cannot even agree on what the stats are and which stats we should be looking at- is there any hope for any discussion about those statistics?

It is really simple...

They passed a law. It banned semi auto and large caliber guns etc....

In 12 years gun crime has gone down 9%.
Assault and rape have gone up 40% and 20% respectively. Along with most other crime.
There have been no mass shootings. This however did not stop mass killings...

Childers Palace Fire - In June 2000, drifter and con-artist Robert Long started a fire at the Childers Palace backpackers hostel that killed 15 people.
Monash University shooting - In October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang, a student, shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five.

So any questions? Or do you want to make more nonsensical useless requests?

Originally Posted by Absentglare

You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

Re: Gun Control

Originally Posted by haymarket

Not trying to weasel out of anything. My position on this is one of two things
1- so what? We are all Americans and regardless of white and black we are in this together and we rise and fall as a nation together.
2- so according to you then this is the direct responsibility and problem of degenerate minorities who are ruining America for everbody else and they are so hopeless and beyond civilization atha we should just say "screw the damn dark savages and let them wallow in their own filth"?

I know which position mine is.

Which is yours?

My position is that it actually has nothing to do with race. Statics can show that more of one race or another commits a particular type of crime, but does it address different social factors that may affect a greater percentage of one race over another? No.

Welfarism, community, parenting, education, discipline and crime punishment all play a role.

We need to end welfarism. Communities need to support cleaning up their communities. We need to improve our education system. Parents and Schools need to enforce greater discipline. Punishment should be increased in severity and done publicly to discourage more crime. And we need to end this stupid liberal war being raged against religion.

Re: Gun Control

Originally Posted by ttwtt78640

OK, you admit that gun crime, or in this case murder in general, is to be addressed nationally. In other words, all laws are federal now? What you, and many leftists, have wanted all along, but were simply too afraid to ask for all at once. The answer to everything by the left is for application of more federal gov't power. "We" are all in this together now. Yes they can!

Yes, if I could get my wish or snap my fingers I strongly would indeed favor criminal law being national. Yes and no doubt about it. And yes, the causes of it need to be addressed nationally as well.

But I make no such proposal nor do I believe it is possible.

Now your turn to answer my question about which position you identify with

1- so what? We are all Americans and regardless of white and black we are in this together and we rise and fall as a nation together.
2- so according to you then this is the direct responsibility and problem of degenerate minorities who are ruining America for everbody else and they are so hopeless and beyond civilization atha we should just say "screw the damn dark savages and let them wallow in their own filth"?

__________________________________________________ _
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Re: Gun Control

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. ?

It has become obvious that your continual obsession with race and its statistics regarding crime is NOT A STAWMAN but a very important part of how you think about this entire issue.

And the fact is the law in Australia was passed because of a string of mass gun murders and that has stopped after the law. Nothing you have presented changes that reality.

here it is for you - yet again

The results are hard to argue with. According to a Harvard University study, 13 gun massacres (in which four or more people died) occurred in the 18 years before the law was enacted. In the 16 years since there has been none. Zero. The overall firearm homicide rate dropped from 0.43 per 100,000 in the seven years before the law to 0.25 in the seven years after. By 2009, the rate had dropped further, to just 0.1 per 100,000, or one per million.

In the USA, the 2009 firearm homicide rate was 3.3 per 100,000, some 33 times higher than Australia's.

__________________________________________________ _
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

Re: Gun Control

Originally Posted by DVSentinel

My position is that it actually has nothing to do with race. Statics can show that more of one race or another commits a particular type of crime, but does it address different social factors that may affect a greater percentage of one race over another? No.

Welfarism, community, parenting, education, discipline and crime punishment all play a role.

We need to end welfarism. Communities need to support cleaning up their communities. We need to improve our education system. Parents and Schools need to enforce greater discipline. Punishment should be increased in severity and done publicly to discourage more crime. And we need to end this stupid liberal war being raged against religion.

We had no real welfare programs in the Gilden Age of the last half of the 1800's. That did not help poverty. It helped provide one of the worst condidtions for Americans to live under in our history.

I have no idea what the war on religion means.

I agree with you on doing more for our education system.
I agree with you on getting tough on crime and punishment.
I agree with you that parents and communities need to get their act together.

__________________________________________________ _
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers