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So it appears Hirashima (and by implication Madara) was/is leagues above even Tobirama. Wonder how he got so strong.

Not necessarily (though I tend to agree). Tobirama still ignored Hashirama and set out to War, the only thing that stopped him was Orochimaru. The only true indicator that Hashirama was "above" Tobirama was the fact that Hashirama seemingly broke free of Orochimaru's control (whether that means just mind or mind and body is unknown), and it is possible that was only accomplished because Orochimaru is in a Hashirama cloned body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shay

What is up with Oro lately? He better not start being a "goodie". Freak better have something up his sleeve!

Truthfully, Orochimaru's end goals never had anything to do with the destruction of countries or even really people (though he certainly was not adverse to killing or using death when he needed). Even his attack on Konoha was more an unfilled sense of vengeance (as he said, a whim).

I wonder if he realized he doesn't need Sasuke anymore after somehow finding out (probably through Kabuto) about Tobi's Uchiha eye stash. He's just trying to get Sasuke to go away so he can get himself a Rinnegan without worry (since he just accomplished step 1: get Hashirama cells).

I wonder if he realized he doesn't need Sasuke anymore after somehow finding out (probably through Kabuto) about Tobi's Uchiha eye stash. He's just trying to get Sasuke to go away so he can get himself a Rinnegan without worry (since he just accomplished step 1: get Hashirama cells).

not sure the process is that linear. madara had to take his brothers eyes then get senju dna...nagato made use of rinnegan that was already existed...i think orochimaru now having senju dna would actually need to take sasuke eyes. EMS seems to be a part of the progression.

after wanting the to see the shodai vs madara fight for so long, im currently not interested in the details. this flashback showed us extra panels (including the first rasengan...wood catches the bijuudama and strikes susanoo) and right now im satisfied since i know the outcome of that particular matchup. hashi didnt say lets begin at the original sage so im a lil disappointed but im hoping what is revealed is something along the lines of the senju and uchiha not being born into the world but created, like the bijou were...

A largely uneventful chapter though with some cool moments nonetheless. I'm sure this would read better in trade, but week to week the stalling is a bit irritating.

I'm thinking we won't really be starting from the VOTE battle, but perhaps from the start of the conflict with more details on behalf of Hashirama that may enlighten how he viewed things.

I'm not quite sure what Sasuke wants out of this particular bit though. I guess knowing what about the village inspired such loyalty in his brother. But it is getting a bit irritating and I hope he just makes up his mind once and for all.

I'm waiting for Minato to throw in that a masked Uchiha was behind the attack as that would give more incentive for Sasuke to go against Obito and Madara.

Orochimaru is confusing me though. It's mainly that he hasn't been too much of a jerk these last few chapters. It's just sort of weird having him be the reasonable one with pointing out Tobirama's mistakes.

__________________

By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, if you want to test a man's character give him power." - Abraham Lincoln

Even though nothing happened I still learned a lot from this chapter.
1) during Oro's first attack, Hashirama and Tobirama were not at there full strength. Which was probably why Saratobi was about to fight both of them on equal footing.
2) Tobirama intimidated everyone by just lifting a finger.
3) Somehow Minato didn't know Naruto current situation even though a bit of his chakra is embedded in the seal. Does that mean he doesnt know about Pain's attack or Jiraiya's death? From last chapter it seems he has no knowledge of anything since his death. This is implied (by me) when the 1st asked him if the village was stable and he said he didn't know despite him telling Naruto that he saw everything through his eyes. So are there two Minatos? The chakra and knowledge from a dead person does not return like a shadow clone?
4) Senju DNA apparently can beat Senju DNA making it the cure all of all plot devices. Tobirama Senju the one who developed the Edo Tensei in the first place AND has pure Senju DNA can't break out of a ET? Kind of bad writing IMO but needed in order to keep the kages in place.
5) this realization came a bit late but how did Oro break out of Itachi's seal? Does this mean Nageto could be ET'd as well? Oro is really turning into the series' premiere seal break in the last few appearances. It seems like there is nothing you can do kill or trap him now.

5) this realization came a bit late but how did Oro break out of Itachi's seal? Does this mean Nageto could be ET'd as well? Oro is really turning into the series' premiere seal break in the last few appearances. It seems like there is nothing you can do kill or trap him now.

i think what Itachi sealed was a part of Orochimaru's Life inside sasuke, that freed him of the curse seal, as we have seen that sasuke resurrected Orochimaru from Anko's curse seal, i think now that he is out, she is also freed from the curse seal,
but i agree it's like almost impossible to trap him or kill him for good,

where is all this support for sasuke by orochimaru is coming from, such a role doesn't suit him much,i hope there is more to this about him.
Tobirama's display of chakra was very cool, i'd like to see him in a fight as he is the hokage who's least action has been shown till now

Even though nothing happened I still learned a lot from this chapter.
1) during Oro's first attack, Hashirama and Tobirama were not at there full strength. Which was probably why Saratobi was about to fight both of them on equal footing.
2) Tobirama intimidated everyone by just lifting a finger.
3) Somehow Minato didn't know Naruto current situation even though a bit of his chakra is embedded in the seal. Does that mean he doesnt know about Pain's attack or Jiraiya's death? From last chapter it seems he has no knowledge of anything since his death. This is implied (by me) when the 1st asked him if the village was stable and he said he didn't know despite him telling Naruto that he saw everything through his eyes. So are there two Minatos? The chakra and knowledge from a dead person does not return like a shadow clone?
4) Senju DNA apparently can beat Senju DNA making it the cure all of all plot devices. Tobirama Senju the one who developed the Edo Tensei in the first place AND has pure Senju DNA can't break out of a ET? Kind of bad writing IMO but needed in order to keep the kages in place.
5) this realization came a bit late but how did Oro break out of Itachi's seal? Does this mean Nageto could be ET'd as well? Oro is really turning into the series' premiere seal break in the last few appearances. It seems like there is nothing you can do kill or trap him now.

3)the chakra embedded in naruto from minato was used up during their encounter when naruto fought pain. minato was aware of mostly everything that happened (including jiraiyas death) up until he tightened up the seal for the last time. hes is unaware of all event thereafter...

5)while there are not two minatos, in theory there are/were more than Oro...

Meh, nothing seriously happened in this chapter. The last chapter ended with Sasuke asking what a shinobi was, and this chapter ended with Hashirama starting the story.

Tobirama created the jutsu, so im puzzled on how he doesn't know the weakness to it. And how does Tobirama not have Hashirama's cells, they're both brothers, and both senju. It doesn't make sense that Hashirama can break out of Oro's control because of his own cells but not Tobirama.

I really liked this chapter, but I can also see why so many people didn't like it. the question posed last chapter may not have been answered, but that doesn't mean nothing happened. hashirama is actually acting a lot like obito which i find interesting. basically, he's a jokester unless he needs to be serious. he is indeed the strongest hokage it seems. and he cant be fully trusted if he's acting all the time. i dont mean to make it sound like hashirama is bad, but i don't have the same trust for him as i do for hiruzen or minato. it makes sense that the senju cant be completely good or else the uchiha and sasuke would have no hope of redemption.

i'm surprised that tobirama couldnt break out. perhaps he has another trick up his sleeve. he certainly would know about the madara loop hole where he can negate the technique the moment it is released and stay in this world. i'm guessing he also knows another way to escape. that or hashirama could just break free whenever apparently. a bit OP in that regard since madara couldn't do the same

Tobirama created the jutsu, so im puzzled on how he doesn't know the weakness to it.

Didn't 't the weakness Madara exploited only occur when the summoner tries to dismiss the zombie? Otherwise, why was Madara's soul starting to be sucked out for for him to reverse the effects at the last moment?

Whatever the case, Tobirama did attempt to break free, but Orochimaru prevented him from even attempting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

And how does Tobirama not have Hashirama's cells, they're both brothers, and both senju.

Maybe they only have one shared parent (if not they seem to greatly prefer different grandparents)? Siblings are never genetically exact (I think they share 50% autosomal DNA), so there is no way of knowing how Tobirama and Hashirama's genes would act when compared. Why Hashirama's genes matter at all for Tobirama is a better question than what their differences are.

At last the old question of why were the 1st and 2nd so weak in the rooftop battle was officially answered. I didn't expect the kages to fight Madara since it would be lame if Sasuke suddenly decided to help the alliance even if indirectly, but Kishimoto made a clever trick of having the 1st break free so he can help the alliance independently of Sasuke's will. Of course here i'm assuming that if the 1st has his free will nobody can stop him, neither Orochimaru nor EMS-Sasuke, and also that he will tell Orochi to let the other 3 kages go with him otherwise he will kill him. And of course Orochi would agree since he doesn't want to be trapped in eternal tsukiyomi either. Funny thing how Sasuke will help the alliance again (as he did when killing Deidara or destroying Orochimaru's organization) despite he wants to do the opposite

My guess is that the 1st hokage will explain to Sasuke that before the village system the chaos that was caused by the super-human powers of ninja who were free to kill and conquer as their abilities allowed them has caused a huge hatred of average people towards ninja and everybody born with such abilities. A flashback to Haku's story where anyone discovered with special ablities was hated and killed would nicely connect to the beginning of the story. It was never properly explained why there was such a huge hatred towards such ablities, and if it was global or just part of Haku's story. The hokage would then explain that his dream was to create a ninja system that would create order by having villages controlling these ninja and thus prevent individual ninja and clans from abusing average people. But that would also mean that those who became ninja were subject to very strict rules, and the unfortunate side effect of that was that village leaders would often think of their subordinates as merely "tools", as it was explained in the very beginning of the manga by Kakashi. This would also explain why are the feudal lords allowed to rule, because to stop hatred the ninja villages restrained themseves. And the most important outcome of the dream would be that people would not hate and be scared of ninjas. But of course many things went wrong, that's why we have the main hero who will fix things

The 1st is still the only one who could use Mokuton so clearly that's the key here. Even if they're brothers from the same parents doesn't mean their DNA is the same.

It looks like the 2nd broke free of Orochimaru's initial control (you could see the 3rd getting frozen while the 2nd still continued) but Orochimaru stepped it up another level which only the 1st was able to ignore.

3)the chakra embedded in naruto from minato was used up during their encounter when naruto fought pain. minato was aware of mostly everything that happened (including jiraiyas death) up until he tightened up the seal for the last time. hes is unaware of all event thereafter...

5)while there are not two minatos, in theory there are/were more than Oro...

If the Minato in the last few chapters knew about Pain's attack then why didn't he say so when Hashirama asked? Th correct response, if what you say is true, would be "not really, so guy named Pain destroyed the village last I checked. But my son kicked his ass".
But it seems like he has no idea of anything since sealing Kurama.

I'm not exactly sure WHAT happens when you seal part of your chakra someplace. Some parts of the story seems to imply that it acts kind of like a second you, other parts imply that all the different parts of you are connected to eachother somehow and share information.

At last the old question of why were the 1st and 2nd so weak in the rooftop battle was officially answered.

this was answered a while ago by kabuto when talking to edo-deidara. tobirama just elaborated a little

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

The 1st is still the only one who could use Mokuton so clearly that's the key here. Even if they're brothers from the same parents doesn't mean their DNA is the same.

i still dont get or like the idea of the senju... if mokuton wasn't their clan's power (which it seems not to be) then what was so special about them? what is their power exactly? why were they on equal footing with the uchiha who had all the sharingan techniques at their disposal? and of course, what the hell happened to them? how is only hashirama's granddaughter left and why doesnt she (a direct descendant) at least have mokuton? none of it makes sense. hopefully some of it gets answered, but no matter what it's going to be a bit lame of an explanation. lamer than love/loss creating the sharingan chakra

Meh, nothing seriously happened in this chapter. The last chapter ended with Sasuke asking what a shinobi was, and this chapter ended with Hashirama starting the story.

Tobirama created the jutsu, so im puzzled on how he doesn't know the weakness to it. And how does Tobirama not have Hashirama's cells, they're both brothers, and both senju. It doesn't make sense that Hashirama can break out of Oro's control because of his own cells but not Tobirama.

There's something unique about the first Hokage's cells that grant him abilities that only he possesses. Even Tsunade a direct descendant of Hashirama doesn't have his unique abilities. So we know that merely being a close relative, even a descendant doesn't grant you Hashirama's abilities. There's something about his body that grants him the ability to do Wood Element jutsu and all this other stuff that is related to his unique genes but not a heritable trait. The Ninja who have Hashirama's DNA spliced in to them such as Yamato, Danzou, Zetsu, Obito and Madara have these traits but not relatives such as other Senju as far as we know.

That means that Hashirama didn't get these abilities from his parents, otherwise Tobirama should have them too. It's not an advanced bloodline trait. Maybe he signed some type of contract with forest spirits or something that make it so his unique body cells have special life force energy which gives him influence over plants, control of Bijuu etc.

I'm not exactly sure WHAT happens when you seal part of your chakra someplace. Some parts of the story seems to imply that it acts kind of like a second you, other parts imply that all the different parts of you are connected to eachother somehow and share information.

Which kind of contradicts eachother I guess.

I'm thinking it might be like Kage-bunshin (something made from chakra). Once it disappears, you gain all of its knowledge.