April 22, 2011

In Wisconsin, where democracy never ends. We have a thoroughly, continually, annoyingly politically engaged citizenry.

By the way, what's the score now? 4 to 4? 3 to 5? I can't keep track. I hate the recall thing, but if the Dems do it to the Republicans, I find it hard not to support the pushback of Republicans against Dems. But really, I think it's unfair to ordinary citizens, who got their voting work done last November and deserved to be free from elections until those terms end. It's also a waste of money.

The Republicans won power decisively last fall and have been focused more on exercising power than talking to the public about why what they are doing is a good idea. I hope they use this recall opportunity to explain and persuade. It's not just a matter of winning the recall election. Flip it into something very positive. As I've said, I hate this recall movement, but now that it's here, I hope the folks who made it happen come to bitterly regret what they have done.

I hate the recall thing, but if the Dems do it to the Republicans, I find it hard not to support the pushback of Republicans against Dems.

The Republican group out of Utah filed one week befor Democrats did. Not surprisngly they hired out of state canvassers, including a felon, who stole someones bag at Lambeau Field. That, and buying shots for people willing to sign. Pathetic.

(The Crypto Jew)The Republican group out of Utah filed one week befor Democrats did. Not surprisngly they hired out of state canvassers, including a felon, who stole someones bag at Lambeau Field. That, and buying shots for people willing to sign. Pathetic.

Geeeee, Garage we’re just learning from our California peers, in the Democratic party…To make it truly fair we’d have hired ACORN, to dummy up the petitions, pay Minimum Wage, and No Over-time to the “volunteers.”

The Republican group out of Utah filed one week befor Democrats did. Not surprisngly they hired out of state canvassers, including a felon, who stole someones bag at Lambeau Field. That, and buying shots for people willing to sign. Pathetic.

garbage continues to be a spokesman for the politics of vengeance, hatred and thuggery.

In the face of the unprecedented (in WI)flee-bagging, I'd have to say it's not. When an elected official purposely dodges the very job they were voted in to accomplish, I see no reason why the machinery that got them their jobs in the first place can't be used to rebuke them in the strongest way possible.

(The Crypto Jew)I wonder why they are targeting state senators instead of assembly members.

On the GOP side it’s fairly obvious, the Democratic Assembly members didn’t flee the state…….Also, if it’s like my state, the Assembly have 2 years terms, and it sticks in my head that it is a 2 year period BEFORE YOU CAN FILE A RECALL, meaning that by the time you could file a Recall, it would be time for a General Election, any way…hence you really can’t “recall” Assembly members…but that’s just my theory.

What you said, Ann, a "thoroughly, continually, annoyingly politically engaged citizenry." Now my Madison liberal Facebook friends are forwarding messages complaining about how the social media sites are being taken over by fan pages and businesses trying to promote themselves. It's not OK for writers and photographers and game developers, etc., to try to gain visibility, but it is OK to be spammed about what the evil Koch brothers have done this week or how the GAB investigation must be flawed, therefore Go Kloppenburg! Flush a few million more Wisconsin tax dollars down the drain in a recount.

Recalls are a terrible idea in general. It is wrong to recall a politician just because you don't like the way they voted on a particular issue. Work hard to win the next election.

As we've seen, powerful special interest groups such as unions are able to exploit the recall process. Can you imagine what a disaster it would be if we had recalls at the federal level? The president and Congress would be facing recall every single year!

Garage is not the only to notice what the Republicans have done as this comment from the Greenbaypressgazette illustrates: It is interesting that local people are not the ones motivated to go out and collect signatures to recall Senator Hansen even though the Republicans have now resorted to having to pay in order to get signatures. The recall was initiated by a Utah group. The recall committees are using people from out of state to do the leg work of acquiring the necessary signatures. What forces are really at work here?

"MUCH BETTER to have to ride out the full four year term of Gray Davis….."

You can always find scenarios where recalls have served the public good. Gray Davis may have been rightly recalled from office. But my point is that the recall process can be and is currently being badly abused by the unions. Elected officials often have to make decisions that are unpopular in the short term. The threat of recall only makes them less likely to do what's right and more likely to do what is politically expedient. Politicians have done the expedient thing for decades, and look where that's got us.

(The Crypto Jew)The recall committees are using people from out of state to do the leg work of acquiring the necessary signatures. What forces are really at work here?

Geee R-V, MARKET FORCES….it’s not difficult to explain OR understand, UNLESS you are some kind of Conspiratorial Nut….many states allow Recalls or Ballot Initiatives, HOWEVER, the skills necessary in crafting petitions, collecting “valid” signatures, and the sheer manpower involved make it difficult for grass roots groups, usually new to the idea, the PARTICULAR idea, to accomplish their goals.

Nationwide, however, these efforts are on-going 365 days a year…SO folks who have done it successfully, begin to market that “skill set” to those who lack them, but who do want a ballot initiative or recall in their state. You know, just like those with a talent for Chartered Accountancy or Marketing sell their skill sets to those who need them, but don’t have them. It emerged in that despicable Liberal H3ll that is California, where ballot initiatives are big and on-going business…groups realized that they had a talent for the job of drafting valid petitions and getting the signatures, they then began to sell that ability to other grups in need…first in CA and now nationwide.

Funny, when ACORN does it, it’s “Community Organizing” but when a non-Left group does it, it’s “shadowy forces”….sorry R-V, you’re just reaping themore of Uncle Alinski’i and not enjoying it…..

"I'm not seeing the moral equivalence. The move to recall the dems was initiated because they violated their oath, and fled the State to abort the legislative process. The republicans, so it seems, are being recalled as revenge for winning the last election."

I agree with you that the Republican recall efforts are justified because the Senate Democrats tried to undermine the Democratic process. But I think we would be better off if there was no recall process or if it was much more limited. For example, a good way to prevent abuse would be to allow only one recall election per year. The Senate Democrats could be held accountable in the next regular election.

(The Crypto Jew)For example, a good way to prevent abuse would be to allow only one recall election per year. The Senate Democrats could be held accountable in the next regular election.

Why one per year? What do you mean “one per year?” So 50% of your Senate could be seen taking bribes, but you could only recall ONE OF THEM?

Recalls fail because they require you to get a fixed, and usually large, number of registered voters to sign a petition….Recalls may exist in many states, but how many ACTUALLY happen? Not many, because though NARAL or SEIU or Americans for Tax Reform may file petitions CONSTANTLY, a vast majority of them never get filed, because they fail to get the requisite signatures. So the “burden” of recalls, falls on the groups making the effort, not the state….because like baby animals, most NEVER grow to adulthood and actually become an election.

Bottom-Line: most recalls never go anywhere and the idea, is generally, an irrelevancy.

Yes, R-V is worried about “outside agitators” a’stirrn’n up the pot…I give him his new slogan…

“I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say collective bargaining for public employees now, collective bargaining for public employees tomorrow, collective bargaining for public employees forever."

"Bottom-Line: most recalls never go anywhere and the idea, is generally, an irrelevancy."

You may be right that most recalls never go anywhere. I have a feeling that the Democrats will fail to take back the Senate. But the unions can still pull a small victory out of this. These recall efforts are meant to send a message to other states about what could happen if they try to do what Walker did.

If politicians do something illegal, they can still be impeached. What the Senate Democrats did was absolutely wrong, but it was not technically illegal. I certainly hope the voters hold them accountable for it.

Booze for the voters is an American tradition that goes back to colonial times. More recently big city machines have gone straight to cash. "Walking around money" always gets put to good use in Chicago and other cities.

It's the American Way, Garage. What are you, some kind of communist? (Oh, I forgot.)

(The Crypto Jew)These recall efforts are meant to send a message to other states about what could happen if they try to do what Walker did.

Only IF they win, otherwise it’s a net “win” for Walker or Walker-like forces…because the AFL-CIO expends time and more importantly MONEY that could be better used. So if the AFL-CIO/Democrats FAIL in the bulk of their recall efforts, it’s ENCOURAGING to other forces, like Walker, because not only do you execute the Public Policy of your desire, your opponent will waste valuable resources in a futile effort to overturn the effort.

My point is that recalls should not be done over political issues. Only one recall allowed per year would make this more likely(although it wouldn't spare the Governor).

Still, I agree that if the Democrats are going to abuse the recall process, then the Republicans have no choice but to fight back. Recalling the Senate Democrats is justified because they tried to undermine November's election results.

Well Joe it also has to do with the perception of the average voter in Greenbay as this poster notes:I am not a strong supporter of the Dems, but I am so appalled by the endless dirty tactics of the GOP. They are getting as dirty and ugly as Nixon.

The GOP seem dangerously power hungry. This cannot be good for the people of our state.

Yeah, R-V, the Republicans are the dirty ones. Because they voted on Legislation? While the Dems fled the State, abandoned their jobs, battered public monuments, issued death threats and used the basest tactics of fear and hate to inflame their "supporters". Keep rewriting history, it's all you've got.

"I hope the folks who made it happen come to bitterly regret what they have done."

And if those folks win, where will Althouse's bitterness go? Starting at a strong seven (possibly an eight) doesn't leave much upside potential.

We shall see.

P.S.Why can't Althouse just say that she's against these recalls because it may upset her political preferences? Her melodramatic concern that citizens are too busy to vote is silly. Even so, her explanation is bursting w/ the truth, as she can't contain her true worry, that the Rs may lose power.

Hint: It would help Althouse disguise her true partisan motivations if she augmented her logistics based anti-recall argument w/ a call for the government to ban recalls. If that law was really her concern, this solution would be obvious, it would be imperative! Why no anti-law advocation?

I'd say that of the Republicans, Kapanke is the most vulnerable. His district is not very conservative -- I think it went for Kloppenburg. Of course, it all depends on who is running against him. I freely concede Democrats will likely screw things up and put a disciple of All Things Union and lose.

Why can't Althouse just say that she's against these recalls because it may upset her political preferences? Her melodramatic concern that citizens are too busy to vote is silly. Even so, her explanation is bursting w/ the truth, as she can't contain her true worry, that the Rs may lose power.

Bullshit.

The question is: Do you accept the outcome of elections when you don't win?

While the Dems fled the State, abandoned their jobs, battered public monuments, issued death threats and used the basest tactics of fear and hate to inflame their "supporters".

Fair is fair. The Democrat officials didn't batter any monuments or issue death threats, did they? I'm not trying to be overly literal, but if a recount is in the offing and that's what we're arguing about, best to keep it caged in the actual reasons they are facing that recount.

Things like leaving the state, abandoning their constituents and their oaths of office, etc.

"My point is that recalls should not be done over political issues. Only one recall allowed per year would make this more likely"

More likely, there would be exactly one recall election each year. There would be a race to collect petitions to get which race it would be, with the party in power collecting for a recall in their safest seat (which they would hold in the recall election) and the party out of power collecting signatures in the district where they felt they would have the best chance of winning.

There would be no waiting for there to be a real need for a recall (which is the part that is being abused this year). The party in power would be looking to inoculate themselves against any scandals that would be exposed that year, and the party out of power going after their best opportunity before they get locked out by the inoculation.

Is having a politically engaged citizenry actually annoying? I did not know that.

Now, you’re kind of glossing over this, but not engaging the public on what they were doing is pretty much why all of this went down. If they’d have gone through the normal channels and traditions, we’d be way passed this by now.

And finally, regarding is as an opportunity to explain and persuade though we’re on opposite sides of this, this is my hope, as well. Use the recalls to explain, discuss and debate. At its most essential element, this is what the Dems have been asking for, from the start. In that regard, we have won. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t expect the recall number to change much of anything down at the Capitol. If anything does change to our favor, it’s just gravy. Why would there be anything to bitterly regret?

"I am not a strong supporter of the Dems, but I am so appalled by the endless dirty tactics of the GOP. They are getting as dirty and ugly as Nixon.

The GOP seem dangerously power hungry. This cannot be good for the people of our state. "

R-v, I don't have to quote any other poster. I can quote myself.

I am not a strong supporter of the GOP, but I am appalled by the endless dirty tactics of the Democrats. They have gotten worse than they were in the days of Tammany Hall and brought Chicago nationwide.

The Democrats seem dangerously power-hungry. This cannot be good for any state.

With regard to Kapanke, if the recall election is during the summer, then many UW-LaCrosse students won't be around...few thousand potential Dem votes right there. Sure, many will still be at home in the district, but they won't be as influenced by the perpetual 'cause' machine of a UW campus.

My state senator Kapanke(R) has a decent chance of being voted out on the recall.

He's the type of person I think we NEED in legislature...real world work experience, an employee and laster as a job creator. He has been very gracious in the past few months despite death threats and vandalism.

One of the things he has in his favor is that the recall election will likely take place while the state colleges in his district are out for the summer. In a close election, that might be the difference.

He's facing a Democrat, Rep. Jen Schilling, who is perfectly likable and isn't a flamethrower (that might come later as the election gets closer). Besides disagreeing with her policies, I've never trusted someone who has spent there entire working career only as a politician.

Folks read the posts carefully and you will discover that the quotes are from the good citizens of Greenbay, not Madison,and my point is that the Republican approach to the recall efforts there are earning them a negative reputation with the citizens of Greenbay! Somehow your fixation on Madison liberals seems to cloud your judgement.

(The Crypto Jew)Well Joe it also has to do with the perception of the average voter in Greenbay as this poster notes:I am not a strong supporter of the Dems, but I am so appalled by the endless dirty tactics of the GOP. They are getting as dirty and ugly as Nixon.

The GOP seem dangerously power hungry. This cannot be good for the people of our state.

Yeah R-V, I’m sure Pauline Kael would have written the same thing, too…I’m certain the above was written by an “average voter” Mayhap an average voter of YOUR acquaintance, which is to say a very liberal Democrat, but beyond that we’ll see.

I think it would be great if a conservative Republican would file to run in the Democratic primary for the slot against Kapanke in the recall election. Make the Dems spend and get their voters out just to get their favored candidate through the primary. The more time, effort and money they have to spend in the primary, the less they have to spend on the recall election. If they want scorched earth politics, they need to find out that both parties can do that.

You may be right that most recalls never go anywhere. I have a feeling that the Democrats will fail to take back the Senate. But the unions can still pull a small victory out of this. These recall efforts are meant to send a message to other states about what could happen if they try to do what Walker did.

If someone holds a gun to your head, pulls the trigger and misfires, I think the wisest course of action is still to disarm the next guy who tires to put a gun to your head before he gets a chance to pull the trigger.

Meaning: if public employee unions really are so powerful that they can get enough votes to hold a recall election (even if they may have enough votes to actually recall an elected official), then elected officials should push forward with efforts to defund them and eliminate a future threat.

Why, the Evil Koch Brothers, who else? The EKB have focused on Wisconsin, that hub of commerce and dynamo of capitalism to expend money and energy. When you use the words "work" and "forces" in the same sentence it can only mean the EKB.

It's not the people revolting against the Government, it's Government employees revolting against the people.

Then why is Walker's approval rating in the gutter? The fact is he was not elected on union-busting and the people are shocked and revolted by it. Remember WI is the birthplace for public-sector unions and the people there love their unions.

Geeeee, Garage we’re just learning from our California peers, in the Democratic party…To make it truly fair we’d have hired ACORN, to dummy up the petitions, pay Minimum Wage, and No Over-time to the “volunteers.”

We'd also have brought in union members from other states to help (all while getting paid by the union)

First of all, there was the ENRON ride, that stripped California of money for 'fake energy contracts.'

People, in the State of California, got furious at their governor. (A man who thought he had an insider's hot at the democrapic presidential nomination ... in 2000.) Remember that race? GOOD.

Anyway, the recall effort was started with conservative money. And, leading the charge was TOM CAMPBELL, who thought he'd get the republican nod. DIDN'T. Schwartzenegger swooped in from the outside (with the organizational skills of the Kennedy racket.) And, WON.

No, what garbage really is in favor of is Republicans acting like sheep to the slaughter. He really enjoys that. Like an SS man or something. Garbage would easily drop the Zyklon B in if given the chance.

I read regional papers in my state to get a sense of how other folks think and I do not know the folks that I quoted from the comments, but passed them on to give readers on this blog who might want to leave their conservative cells a sense of how some folks in Greenbay are reacting. Shouting my commie cell includes beer drinking ice fishermen on Mendota- you betcha, hey.

If we only allowed one recall election per year..."More likely, there would be exactly one recall election each year. There would be a race to collect petitions to get which race it would be, with the party in power collecting for a recall in their safest seat (which they would hold in the recall election) and the party out of power collecting signatures in the district where they felt they would have the best chance of winning."

I suppose you may be right that this could happen in a highly polarized environment like the one we have now. But it would be less likely to happen when things settle down. But any party that set up a recall election just to insulate their own politicans from being recalled would likely be punished for it in the next election.

Irregardless, it would still accomplish the goal of eliminating recalls over political issues. If you don't like the way someone votes, word harder to win the next election. If a politican breaks the law, they can still be impeached by the legislature.

The Republicans have much more to lose in these recall elections than they have to gain. It would be better if the number of recalls allowed were limited.

We just had an election last November. Let our politicans pursue the agendas they were elected on. We can hold them accountable for the results when they're up for re-election.

Have to agree with you that there are definitely SOME "average folks" outside of Madison that are normally solid Republicans, but are very angry with Walker, et al. due to the union busting business.

My brother is more conservative than I am but he feels (as a public employee) that he is being targeted and punished, while some of his buddies in the private sector bitch and complain (but still seem to buy all sorts of shit that he can't afford).

Then why is Walker's approval rating in the gutter? The fact is he was not elected on union-busting and the people are shocked and revolted by it.

You wouldn't have deduced that from that fraudulent Daily Kos poll, by any chance?

If people really were upset by Walker, why didn't the Klopper win? This was supposed to be a cakewalk for the unions. It wasn't. That it was even close is proof that the world is vastly different outside the Dane County echo-chamber.

Political upheaval is the norm, not the relative tranquility we have enjoyed in the US.

Further, technology has changed society and continues to do so in such dramatic fashions that we may now be to where the 'new normal' is obsolete before we even come to grips with it. What has not changed is human nature.

It looks like some current state reps want to run in the recall elections for the current state sen seats. If the state rep is successful and gains the sen seat, does that then mean another special election to fill the rep seat?

I was lucky to have my wife and 18 year old son in the car when I stumbled upon a recall Bob Wirch "event".Event is too strong of a description. More like an empty lot with a couple of enthusiastic volunteers.

I let my son know that his signature would be a vote against "the MAN".

Dan Kapanke is my state senator. Can someone tell me why it's so important to put the voters through a recall? His term is up next year and he had already pledged to serve only two terms. What will be the cost of this recall election? How much has bee spent already? I haven't seen the numbers, but whatever they are, I think the people doing the recall are showing just how little regard they have for taxpayers. The other night Kapanke had a town hall meeting in Holmen. The day before I got a robocall from the AFL-CIO urging me to attend and let the senator know how much I disliked his vote. A robocall! How cowardly is that? I couldn't even tell them what I thought of their call. And I'm on the do-not-call lists, for pete's sake.

Recall democrats republicans or whatever, but how can you support someone that is not from Wisconsin to determine what is good for your state?And Mormons?Have you ever seen the Book of Mormon? They have totally re-written the Bible.Revelations 22 points them and gives them a share of the curses in Revelation for adding or subtracting anyhting from the Bible, much less re-writing it.You all would be raising cain if Atheists came in your state to determine waht is good for you, but these anti-christs seem good for your purposes?And that's what I don't get?Charles Slakan