Gee.. where have I last seen a hug doping scandal? Oh yeah... the Dubin inquiry. And years later nothing has really changed. Well.. Charlie died.

Originally Posted by osokolo

i am glad you know you are smart. that is also a good reason to feel good. your statements about media/internet war - are confusing and contradictory with previous statement. What media war? publishing the facts is the best way to find the truth.

In reality we have no real truths. All we have is books, statements from cyclists, and of course statements from the USADA. If you want to talk facts then show me the actual results of the test the USADA innuendoed about in regards to Lance. So far all it has become he said they said whith the court of public opinion playing judge, jury, and executioner.

Originally Posted by osokolo

but they had to if they wanted to succeed and put food on their family dining tables. sad but true

No one put a gun to their heads. And let's face reality.. these riders aren't trying to get out of slums. Like all the rest of us they have it pretty good already no matter what route they choose. Compared to say a Ethiopian runner who is is actually trying to get out of the slums.

this is about organized cheating in sports... it is about perfectly organized doping scheme that is scary... they were changing their blood in the bus or hotel room in totally unsterile conditions with a bunch of people around them making sure that nothing leaks out...

if your stomach is not turning just thinking about it - and all you can say is "who cares" then i can only shake my head in disbelief... the fact that Lance sued people for libel, and won multimillion lawsuits yet he knew he was cheating and those people were right - is outright sick... the past must be defeated and young kids should see that cheating doesn't pay...

i can't believe anyone can say - who cares... we all should care... Lance was a hero to millions - defeated cancer and then dominated the sport for so long... now he is hero no more. he shattered many dreams... it is really sad...

for that reason - USADA has done a great job... they were David vs the Goliath - organized doping criminals... one of only few examples where justice wins, despite less money and power... maybe there is hope after all...

Oggie, this situation is not unlike CEO/CFO club, the Saints' bounty scandal or the bloods or the crips dealing on the corner. US Postal was their gang.

This was cycling. Everyone was doping, many got caught. Lance never failed a drug test. The big, bad USADA inimidate the guys who didn't have a nest egg and threaten to strip away their livelihood. Not unlike the police trying to "flip" minor dealers to get to the real money makers threatening them with jail, not seeing their kids, etc. The embarassing thing is all of these grown men snitched on their brother. Shame on them. That absence of character is probably why they were domestiques, not stars of their sport. Lance is a BOSS.

Lance IS a hero to many. He beat a horrible hand he was dealt - brain, ball and lung cancer - and rebuilt himself into a machine after that. Adversity made him stronger, like it does to most.

As for Hincapie, Barry and the rest of the the goofs, and i do not throw that term around lightly, may you find some loyalty to something in your life. Because now you are snitches, bottom feeders, clinging tenuously to minute fragments of your manhood. Its ironic, that Lance is the one with no testicles...

"I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

He did fail drug tests. Found ways to have them covered up or ignored, with the complicity of the UCI.

Originally Posted by Biggie

The big, bad USADA inimidate the guys who didn't have a nest egg and threaten to strip away their livelihood. Not unlike the police trying to "flip" minor dealers to get to the real money makers threatening them with jail, not seeing their kids, etc

Poor comparison. The group of riders who testified are all multi-millionarires whose personal net worth and resources dwarf USADA's! Hincapie alone is reported to have a net worth of approximately $40 million dollars. Sure, all of them less successful than Lance, but certainly not plebians by any stretch of the imagination.

All we have is books, statements from cyclists, and of course statements from the USADA. If you want to talk facts then show me the actual results of the test the USADA innuendoed about in regards to Lance.

...and the financial trail, and the longitudinal blood profiling (yes, this is a "test") altogether making up a huge compilation of evidence that not-so-coincidentally all fits together and corroborates the rest. You haven't actually read the report, have you? Or at least read any detailed summaries of the contents?

With your latest addition below, I'm so convinced now that you're just trying to wind us up that I tried to give you +rep (but failed in doing so since it seems I've already repped you for something else recently).

Originally Posted by Biggie

I don't think so. He stuck to his guns. The old mantra, "No confession, no case".

It is actually sad how this army of insignificant people will fail to dent Lance's legacy of triumph. It is very fitting that he rode underneath the Arc de Triomphe, as Boss, seven times.

Cycling had a problem. God willing, it seems to be busted up. Some got caught, some didn't.

Regardless, Lance is still a Champion. Always will be.

I hope Tyler Hamilton's sad fragment of a life yields him enough money to feed his dog. Sad to see an animal suffer at the hands of a rat.

However, sadly, I believe this to be political. If Lance was one of Barrack's rapper/moviestar/rockstar supporters, he wouldn't be going through this now. The US of America has pissed away plenty of money since galloping into Viet Nam. They don't need to be wasting the USADA's cash now.

If Lance wasn't Republican. If Lance hadn't dared to ride his bike with a fallen President, who had dug his own grave. If Lance hadn't been a large financial contributor to a political party that seems borderline insane, he wouldn't be in the headlines right now.

If Lance was like Jay-Z or Eddie Vedder and had chosen a different political affiliation, he would be kicking back, sucking on an Olsen.

Let me think hard about this...

Lance's legacy paraphrased:

Great young American cyclist. Dealt a crappy, almost always fatal hand - The lung, noggen and ball cancer. Comes back leaner, faster, stronger.

Wins the World's greatest race, against an even playing field, year after year, for what seemed like my entire adult life.

My Dad had cancer. The tumour he had is still, 40 years later, wrapped around his spine. That dead piece of cancer strangled my Father's spine for so long that now he can't walk. But for years, he walked funny, skated even worse, but still coached me and half of the other hockey player's in St. John's. Barely being able to safely traverse a sheet of ice didn't keep him from parenting, or volunteering. He is a Champion too. Lance gave all of cancer's Champions a face, The Headlines, the attention they deserve.

Cancer is personal. And it is bad. It is like cockroaches, or mice, or any plague. But it is in our bodies. It comes after, and sometimes takes, the ones we love. Our parents. Our children.

Travis Tygart. You are charged with the wreckless pursuit of our hero. Our inspiration. You Obama flunky, close your eyes for a minute, pretend Lance is Beyonce, and leave him alone. You are a Democrat hitman. And you are charged with waging a war against Lance that cannot be won.

Good luck.

"I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

You have this backwards. Before the USADA investigation into USPS, there was the U.S. Department of Justice federal investigation into same, but for criminal charges of fraud, money laundering, racketeering, and similar. The case was ordered close (apparently much to the surprise of the investigators who thought they had it nailed) without explanation by Democratic political appointee Andre Birotte, a U.S. Attorney. The conspiracy theorist in you might have some fun with a bit of web research on this topic.

BTW, sorry to hear about your father. Like most people I have had family experience with cancer - several times - in some cases with horrible outcomes that many others have either experienced themselves or with people close to them. However, I don't choose to tie their experiences with Armstrong in anything more than a fleeting way. I'd judge their qualities as people to be far superior to Armstrong, just not as famous or wealthy.

Originally Posted by Biggie

Circlip, in the hopes of more + (POSITIVE) rep, I'm gonna keep going.

My Wife calls me a conspiracy theorist. Please keep that in mind.

Also, I do not like Republicans.

However, sadly, I believe this to be political. If Lance was one of Barrack's rapper/moviestar/rockstar supporters, he wouldn't be going through this now. The US of America has pissed away plenty of money since galloping into Viet Nam. They don't need to be wasting the USADA's cash now.

If Lance wasn't Republican. If Lance hadn't dared to ride his bike with a fallen President, who had dug his own grave. If Lance hadn't been a large financial contributor to a political party that seems borderline insane, he wouldn't be in the headlines right now.

If Lance was like Jay-Z or Eddie Vedder and had chosen a different political affiliation, he would be kicking back, sucking on an Olsen.

Let me think hard about this...

Lance's legacy paraphrased:

Great young American cyclist. Dealt a crappy, almost always fatal hand - The lung, noggen and ball cancer. Comes back leaner, faster, stronger.

Wins the World's greatest race, against an even playing field, year after year, for what seemed like my entire adult life.

My Dad had cancer. The tumour he had is still, 40 years later, wrapped around his spine. That dead piece of cancer strangled my Father's spine for so long that now he can't walk. But for years, he walked funny, skated even worse, but still coached me and half of the other hockey player's in St. John's. Barely being able to safely traverse a sheet of ice didn't keep him from parenting, or volunteering. He is a Champion too. Lance gave all of cancer's Champions a face, The Headlines, the attention they deserve.

Cancer is personal. And it is bad. It is like cockroaches, or mice, or any plague. But it is in our bodies. It comes after, and sometimes takes, the ones we love. Our parents. Our children.

Travis Tygart. You are charged with the wreckless pursuit of our hero. Our inspiration. You Obama flunky, close your eyes for a minute, pretend Lance is Beyonce, and leave him alone. You are a Democrat hitman. And you are charged with waging a war against Lance that cannot be won.

BTW, sorry to hear about your father. Like most people I have had family experience with cancer - several times - in some cases with horrible outcomes that many others have either experienced themselves or with people close to them. However, I don't choose to tie their experiences with Armstrong in anything more than a fleeting way. I'd judge their qualities as people to be far superior to Armstrong, just not as famous or wealthy.

Lance is the banner many cancer survivors wave. I think he is an excellent leader for the brotherhood of survivors. He gave them an image of toughness and resilience.

He has his brotherhood of survivors and his brotherhood of teammates. Lance rolled over on nobody.

I judge his spirit, his character and his libido - all indomitable!

Lance cannot quit this war, it ended years ago, after the time any reasonable investigation would take. He stood by his image of survivor, and "if I can do it you can too!", until the sublime started.

The only investigations that go for decades are for war criminals. Rightfully so.

"I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

Lance is the banner many cancer survivors wave. I think he is an excellent leader for the brotherhood of survivors. He gave them an image of toughness and resilience.

He has his brotherhood of survivors and his brotherhood of teammates. Lance rolled over on nobody.

I judge his spirit, his character and his libido - all indomitable!

Lance cannot quit this war, it ended years ago, after the time any reasonable investigation would take. He stood by his image of survivor, and "if I can do it you can too!", until the sublime started.

The only investigations that go for decades are for war criminals. Rightfully so.

I second the sentiment to your father's situation. Sounds like he's much more of a leader than Lance was and ever will be. I struggle to share or understand your take on this guy. I think it's great what he did for cancer in terms of the publicity, research, money raised, or whatever. However, all of that was done propped up on his fraudulent abilities. If this guy was just a nobody rider in the peleton with no exposure, his Fraudstrong foundation wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

I won't get started on what a genuine pr!ck this guy has a reputation of being. I don't call that a leader. His cancer victory is the largest in his life, and is very inspiring. Unfortunately, his ability to exploit his foundation largely on a career with results aided by doping is another issue. That's what makes him anything but a hero to me.

I agree, let him keep his victories. The field was level at that time. That's why his legacy versus what he did in terms of strictly cycling ability are two totally separate issues. I don't know how he can really ever be considered a hero anymore.

A bad day on the bike is better than a good day doing anything else...

every cancer story is a sad story

however, Lance does not get any of my sympathy, nor is my hero anymore. Not because he doped. we all make mistakes. it is human nature.

he is not my hero because he did not have big enough BALL to stand up and say - yes i did. everyone else did and i was not strong enough to resist.

instead, he was running everyone who stood on his way into the ground...

sorry, his tragedy can not be an excuse for what he did. brotherhood of teammates - who were teammates only if they played his game, and if they didn't, he made them hasbeens. did you read any of the emails - part of the evidence? did you not see what he did to Simeoni who stood up against doping?

if those stricken by cancer need heroes - look no further than Terry Fox. He is a true hero.

Biggie - as Circlip said - you had it tragically backwards... but if that floats your boat - we can only agree to disagree...

Originally Posted by Biggie

Lance is the banner many cancer survivors wave. I think he is an excellent leader for the brotherhood of survivors. He gave them an image of toughness and resilience.

He has his brotherhood of survivors and his brotherhood of teammates. Lance rolled over on nobody.

I judge his spirit, his character and his libido - all indomitable!

Lance cannot quit this war, it ended years ago, after the time any reasonable investigation would take. He stood by his image of survivor, and "if I can do it you can too!", until the sublime started.

The only investigations that go for decades are for war criminals. Rightfully so.

Clearly,the entire upper echelon of cyclists in that era were dopers. Jeez, Barry never even rode in the Tour and he was doping??? Who should have those seven Tours? The French amateur champions?

Well, we did have the recent Ontario doping incident.

And on that note.... as per a discussion with Circlip earlier. And is the bigger problem that needs to be addressed.

How many racers on here are aware that most Canadian coaches have next to zilch for education on this subject? I myself have taken 3 different courses for 3 sports. And I can tell you right now there was not even a hint of a discussion. This year I was shocked to discover that up until this fall it was only the national team coach who was required to have any education on doping. Only this year has it become a requirement at the uni level. Basically a Level 3 coach and only because a football team got found out. Over 20 years after the Dubin inquiry and we have nothing to date. But we sure have the whole coaches/staff sleeping with athletes covered.

Isn't the Cycling Ontario AGM coming up soon? Ask the question what the anti doping program is? Ask what requirements of coaches in this area are?

Reality is cycling isn't a team sport where it's easier to control coaching as well as what else goes on. It's pretty easy to have a level 1 or 2 coaching a national team level racer. Because in individual sport it's easier for coaches to stay under the radar then a huge team operation. The athlete trains here flies out to race, then comes back to train, and consult with their coach. No one cares what level as long as results are being produced.

Isn't the Cycling Ontario AGM coming up soon? Ask the question what the anti doping program is?

At an AGM in another province (guess which) a couple of years ago, where the president of the board of the directors of the CCA was also in attendance, as a new business item I asked for a summary of the anti-doping stance and activities of both organizations.

There were descriptions of testing programs, and also of (a small number of) positive tests proving that anti-doping programs were in place and were working. That is better than nothing, but I did find more apathy toward the topic in general than I was hoping for, with sentiment that doping is happening mostly at the pro tour level (not local) which they have little control over, and not a priority compared to all the other things on their plates. That may be true, but to me it was mostly buck passing to CCES, and unwillingness to acknowledge it a critical issue in the promotion of the sport (increasing sponsorship, etc.) when exercising their rights as a voting member of the UCI along with all the other UCI member nations.

Look where we are now. The optics of the competitive side of the sport are very poor within the general populace.

The embarassing thing is all of these grown men snitched on their brother. Shame on them. That absence of character is probably why they were domestiques, not stars of their sport. Lance is a BOSS.

he was not their brother - obviously. he was nobody's brother. it was all about him. those that were in the way or standing up to him - were annihilated or chased out of the sport by him literally. if he was their brother - USPS cheating scheme would never have been broken... it all started for a mundane reason - when Landis started to talk - after USPS did not want to give him a contract... then it easily snowballed - because Lance was a prick and a first class a-hole. i hope you read all the evidence and emails so that you can confirm it for yourself. don't trust me.

if after reading all the stuff that USADA published you still think Lance is a hero - we've got nothing to talk about then...

Lance IS a hero to many. He beat a horrible hand he was dealt - brain, ball and lung cancer - and rebuilt himself into a machine after that. Adversity made him stronger, like it does to most.

Lance had an opportunity to become immortal, much like Terry Fox. he threw his morality away. he cheated his way to the top. he is a false hero. others that cheated were caught and punished. so should be he. more importantly because he was the undisputed ring leader, as evidenced when he chased down Simeoni - just to prove that nothing happens in the peloton without Lance's seal of approval... i am sure many wanted to see him go down - and it eventually happened...

As for Hincapie, Barry and the rest of the the goofs, and i do not throw that term around lightly, may you find some loyalty to something in your life. Because now you are snitches, bottom feeders, clinging tenuously to minute fragments of your manhood.

loyalty as in criminal organizations? should we praise drug dealers for not snitching on their bosses? geez Biggie... loyalty and manhood have many angles obviously. i am a bit surprised that you are glorifying the wrong one - in my opinion. loyalty to the wrong cause is not for praise. it is a shame. manhood is exercised when one fights against immoral and wrong things... not when one is covering up something dirty, dishonest and immoral. how can you misplace these two opposite types of loyalty?

Its ironic, that Lance is the one with no testicles...

you can't be more right. literally - no testicles... well, dodge this Lance...

Look where we are now. The optics of the competitive side of the sport are very poor within the general populace.

At least half of that is how road cycling is shown to North America by the media here. When it comes to endurance sport other then the Olympics only other time we see road cycling is the Tour. So all people see is a small number of high performance cyclist's doing something that seems so abnormal to them. You never see a 2 hour December NBC sports show covering a Grandfondo. So all these doping incidents further their view.

Now if you look at the Ironman which thanks to NBC has a whole different perception. Unlike the 80's you see less pro level racing and more everyman. Then they show all the regular people who are doing it... the Hoyts, Sarah Renertson, Rudy, Lisa Bentley racing the world's best with MS, Marc Herreman's, and the list is endless. And of course the Denizens of The Dark those who no matter what just won't quit to get to the pier by midnight.

And despite Nina Kraft and Kelli Guest to name a few getting caught doping. People see that there is more to it. Now imagine the change of perception if a 2 hour broadcast of a Grandfondo was like that. Not only pro's but you see guy's like Phil Chew doing it and other everyman. Show Chansen pulling his son around the course. Gaurantee you that public perception will change because they that there is more then just the tour and the Olympics.

Edit,

I should also point out that one other factor in this. The drafting rulesand non World Cup pros breaking them and of course Draft Gate 1998 to most are a minor infraction compared to PED taking in most other sports.

This reply is mostly addressing Oggie's, however it is a clarification of my perspective.

Again, I need to say that I am a cyclist. I love bicycling and value the enjoyment it brings and the positive potential it offers people and the environment.

However, I am not a cyclist like Oggie. I will admit, hockey is now, and probably always has been, # 1 in my life. Secondly, I have two young kids that I try to raise. Third, as I'm married I spend a heck of a lot of time trying to talk my Wife into virtue removing activities. Lastly, I am a cycling advocate.

So my first point: I don't know much about Lance's personal life. He was a good story, I was a fan, and I love his swagger with the ladies. I thought he was a good Tour Champion, he respected the TdF traditions, which was good for a brash young American. If he failed as a teammate, I don't know much about that. I wonder how Pete Rose's teammates feel about him?

Second, I will give Oggie Terry Fox trumps Lance. Terry Fox ran a marathon every gosh darn day! My biggest regret in life is not being at the War Memorial in St. John's the day he started his Marathon of hope. I know many school aged kids went. However, Terry wanted, and his wish is still respected, no corporate cash. I feel this slowed his financial impact and Lance's Livestrong has made a crap load of cash for cancer research and survivors.

Third, I think loyalty is always an admirable trait. People choose values and make value judgements in life I would not necessarily make. I know, as a child and teenager, in an economically poor neighbourhood I had many friend up to shananigans. I would never have rolled over on anybody I respected, and considered a friend. If they had been disrespecting, or bullying me, they would not have got that respect from me. I felt, and still do, that we pay police (very, very well) for catching crooks.

The obvious example here is Anakin Skywalker. Obviously. He was weak in the head, was seduced by power, went on to kill thousands of people and Ewoks. Howerver, when it came down to it he couldn't not love his Son.

Somehow, I think honour and loyalty, is a trait learned very young. My worry is that traitors will always be traitors. Can you unlearn that characteristic?

A scumbag in a Harry Rosen suit, is still a scumbag. You see honour and weasels on any given night in the NHL. There are scoundrels everywhere and good people too.

To use economic terminology from a long time ago. Perhaps Lance was a Godsend on a macro level, on a micro level not so much...

"I love being on a bike. It helps me feel free. I get it from my dad", by Guillaume Blanchet

Doping is a lot like speeding, there's obviously a combination of risk/reward balancing and arrogance about not being caught involved. But like speeding, when you're captured on photo radar there's only so many technical arguments you can try before you just have to pay the fine (or surrender your license).

I think I heard on the CBC news today that even if the UCI tried to give the win to the first non doper in those years that it's all the way down to something like 22nd place.

If they could, I would say go for it. However, they can't because of statute of limitations in the WADA code and various local legal systems that are relevant to this case. In this Armstrong case, USADA also gave reasons and supporting legal precedent explaining why the SOL could be extended back for their case and sanction to encompass all of his TdF wins, rather than only 2004/2005 which were the only years within the standard 8 year SOL.

Two other (former) TdF winners have also been stripped of their titles, in the years since Armstrong won his last in 2005. Winners of the Vuelta and Giro have also been stripped. I'm glad Armstrong is no longer immune, and will have his titles stripped in the same way.

Originally Posted by Biggie

LOL.

The "Big Mig" also had positive tests destroyed. I wonder when he will be persecuted for decades and stripped of his Tours and Giros?

If they could, I would say go for it. However, they can't because of statute of limitations in the WADA code and various local legal systems that are relevant to this case. In this Armstrong case, USADA also gave reasons and supporting legal precedent explaining why the SOL could be extended back for their case and sanction to encompass all of his TdF wins, rather than only 2004/2005 which were the only years within the standard 8 year SOL.

The legal theory isn't that the SOL was extended - rather the act of conspiring to dope was a continuous act commencing in 1998 and continuting through to 2010 (or thereabouts) and the SOL only started as of the time the conspiracy ended. In my view, this is a sound legal theory. The UCI were ***** in their written response saying WADA should appeal - either that or legal subtleties are completely lost on them. Maybe that's why they think (allegedly) accepting bribe money is just a good way to sponsor their ongoing activities.

Happy though that justice is finally being done. Next up: we look into getting new leadership for the UCI. Dick Pound for President.

The legal theory isn't that the SOL was extended - rather the act of conspiring to dope was a continuous act commencing in 1998 and continuting through to 2010 (or thereabouts) and the SOL only started as of the time the conspiracy ended.

I defer to your more proper legal explanation in place of my layperson's version - thanks.

Originally Posted by smarty

The UCI were ***** in their written response saying WADA should appeal - either that or legal subtleties are completely lost on them. Maybe that's why they think (allegedly) accepting bribe money is just a good way to sponsor their ongoing activities.

Happy though that justice is finally being done. Next up: we look into getting new leadership for the UCI.

McQuaid's statement left no stones unturned in trying to shift the responsibility from the UCI to every other party involved. I found it to be quite pathetic.

Originally Posted by smarty

Dick Pound for President.

I'm not sure if I'd go for Dick Pound as UCI president (could do a lot worse, but could probably also do better), but he was certainly on the mark - in a very outspoken way - during his tenure as head of WADA on all the Armstrong issues. He was vilified at the time for it by the Armstrong PR machine that was running on all cylinders, influencing public opinion on the matter quite effectively.

i'll tell you - this is going to be hard on him. but he took a gamble on this one and lost... he could have done much better had he owned up to his cheat...

he looked much less arrogant on TV yesterday, when he said "i've been better, but i've been much worse..."

Yeah? I thought he sounded like a bad politician, a scripted speech, which, I suppose it was, as he was giving a rally/pep talk to those riding. Still it struck me as a missed opportunity to say something of substance, in front of a supportive crowd, understanding that whatever he said, would have been replayed around the world.

I think they should hire an ex-doper as the next President. David Millar for prez!

Bad idea as to me your promoting from within. It would appear as business as usual. Best to go seek someone younger with fresh ideas who has no connection to the UCI.

But the reality is while this all looks good it will really do very little to improve the public perception of road racing. But that would require trying to get the media to show it in a different light.