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Good evening (or good morning) fellow Aikido practitioners.
I just came home from practise and it was one of those evenings where people were radiating
positive cooperation, the windows were completely damp, and our sensei excelled (like he always do) and showed us a lot of really interesting points about yokomen uchi. It was really nice !

Disclaimer:
Sometimes my practise is compromised by my ability to stay open towards learning, this is offcourse my personal issue and not worth debating here, so I would like to ask what you people think is a good framework for learning and practising Aikido in a positive spirit ? (without diving too deep into personal and psycological themes, I´m talking about the framework, not our individual idiosyncrasies)
(I think this forum is great and very impressive, but I also think people often misunderstand what other people write and forget to ask the approbiate questions before blabbering away ( like I do) and generally people take their own opinions for granted and forget to explain their point of views and often show absolutely no interrest in other peoples ideas..
If you think I sound like a TV minister or Dr Phil, youre right.. maybe I should have been a TV minister..

So what makes for a great learning and teaching invironment you think ?!

Good evening (or good morning) fellow Aikido practitioners.
I just came home from practise and it was one of those evenings where people were radiating
positive cooperation, the windows were completely damp, and our sensei excelled (like he always do) and showed us a lot of really interesting points about yokomen uchi. It was really nice !

Disclaimer:
Sometimes my practise is compromised by my ability to stay open towards learning, this is offcourse my personal issue and not worth debating here, so I would like to ask what you people think is a good framework for learning and practising Aikido in a positive spirit ? (without diving too deep into personal and psycological themes, I´m talking about the framework, not our individual idiosyncrasies)
(I think this forum is great and very impressive, but I also think people often misunderstand what other people write and forget to ask the approbiate questions before blabbering away ( like I do) and generally people take their own opinions for granted and forget to explain their point of views and often show absolutely no interrest in other peoples ideas..
If you think I sound like a TV minister or Dr Phil, youre right.. maybe I should have been a TV minister..

So what makes for a great learning and teaching invironment you think ?!

Cheers
Lars

Dear Lars,
I think an ideal situation is a environment where the students are hungry for knowledge.I also think that ideally any communication should be two way.If a student is uncertain about something he /she in my opinion should be able to express this to the instructor.Instructors need feedback.For me its a two way street, however I do notice a reluctance for some students to say they do not fully grasp
what is being shown.
Another key element is of course the group leader.Ideally he/she should be a competent aikidoka,
and know his/her subject.
A dojo with a few students also makes a difference especially if the students attend class regularly.However work, study, domestic /economic reasons sometimes prevents this from happening.
I look forward to reading other viewpoints on this subject.Cheers, Joe.

I think it depends on what your focus is in your practice. But certainly the framework should be one that encourages proper body posture, structure, and provides feedback for progression. I think having a really, really good instructor is more important than anything else when it come to aikido.

"Your aikido will only improve when your concept of aikido improves"
Kenjiro Yoshigasaki

This are words that have seen me in and out a whole heap of concepts, that I use and discard as my aikido grows.
Look for the frameworks and concepts, use, discard - create
dan

Dear Daniel
I like that qoute but I am a bit uncertain how I should interprete it. Maybe it´s because I feel that the structure and framework for training is allready present, that is not something I created but rather something I should explore and become aware of during regular practise. Is this a prober interpretation you think ?
Thanks
Lars

I think a great teacher is one that is able to give each student the right mix between structure and explanation on one hand and freedom to develop your own technique on the other.

That's what I strive to do when I teach.

Maybe the reason is that I myself have had a very hard time (and still has) when it comes to opening my mind and accepting new ways of doing things. I have always had a tendency to choose a sensei and stick with him as a 'guideline'. Lately I have tried opening up and thereby taking in inputs from other teachers.

The interesting aspect is that this makes me more proned towards developing my own 'style' or interpretation of what Aikido is. I think that is a neccesary step for every aikido-ka to take in their progress, but also that it should be taken once you are ready to do so.

So.. in short.. I believe the best environment for studying aikido is one that encourages you to reflect on aikido but also supports you with structure and guidance for as long as you need it.

Finally making a sincere effort while maintaining a fun and lively atmoshpere is a vital point as well.

I shall try to remember this tomorrow where I am giving a one hour introduction to Aikido in front of 25 7-year olds and just as many parents...

I think it depends on what your focus is in your practice. But certainly the framework should be one that encourages proper body posture, structure, and provides feedback for progression. I think having a really, really good instructor is more important than anything else when it come to aikido.

Hi Kevin,
My focus is on learning more about Aikido, become good at it, understand it´s various techniques better and how they should be applied, body posture, structure (what do you mean by structure ? but also to try to integrate aikido into my everyday behaviour. I practise Aikido because I regard it as budo and selfdefence training, but I also see it as a personal journey where "masakatsu agatsu" is an important concept.

You mention a good teacher is the most important I agree so I also ask myself how Aikido teachers become good.. but thats maybe a different subject for a different thread.

I think a great teacher is one that is able to give each student the right mix between structure and explanation on one hand and freedom to develop your own technique on the other.

That's what I strive to do when I teach.

Hi Jørgen
Wish you the best for your weekend demonstration, must be exciting with so many people

What you say about developing "your own technique", what do you mean by that ?
The reason I ask is because I never felt that the technique is something that I invented or developed but rather it is there for me to aknowledge and understand in relation to Aikido as a "system" or a technical framework for deeper understanding of Aikido concepts. The way I see it technique and philosophy are
two sides of the same coin, the same goes with basic kihon techniques compared to advanced flowing forms.
Does it make sence to you ?

A dojo with a few students also makes a difference especially if the students attend class regularly.However work, study, domestic /economic reasons sometimes prevents this from happening.
I look forward to reading other viewpoints on this subject.Cheers, Joe.

Dear Joe
Thanks for your reply.
In what way do you think a small dojo with "regular customers" are different than a bigger one?
Have a nice weekend
Lars

I think that my reply to one of the other subjects that are currently on the board will explain my point of view further.

Just to elaborate: we are not supposed to 'invent' the techniques rather than we are suppose to assimilate what we pick up from different senseis, training partners, weapons training etc and adjust it to fit our personal circumstances. Our body frame, length of arms and legs, speed and lots of other issues play a vital role.

Instead of making our body fit aikido - I think we should adapt our aikido to fit our bodies and minds. In that way we end up not being carbon copies of our senseis but rather new permutations with unique blends of physical and mental ability combined with unique blends of experience and knowledge.

In my point of view Aikido is not a goal - it's a path. And each and every single one of us will - and should - have unique aikido.

We recently had a DAF training in Odense with three different 'styles' (in lack of a better word) of aikido on the mat for three hours. Where you there? It was very interesting.

Now - if you should happen to go by Fyn some time drop by and let us discuss this further or come to the workshop in june where all DAF dojo's will be gathered. That should be quite interesting

I understand what you are talking about for sure. I think it is a hard discussion to have on the internet without the physical/non-verbal communication that comes from direct hands on.

Down in Stuttgart I am working with an instructor that has a constant stream of beginners and teaches a very basic and fundamental way that essentially communicates sound, but very, very basic structure of ashi taisho, posture, and mechanics. He does a great job of that with beginners I think.

However, there is not much there for me for my own growth, but I am learning from him how to teach beginners as I can really appreciate his methodology.

Vice, for my own practice, I tend to turn to guys like Dan Harden, Toby Threadgill, Marc Abrams, and my dojo back in DC when I can find the time to train with them where it is a whole different focus on movement and alot more subtle. In fact, all of these venues and people are different in their own way and I always take something out of the time spent.

I personally break my time up and concentrate on different aspects of budo/aikido/jiu jitsu, however, I spend most of my time in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu these days as I am making great gains in learning basic movements in jiu jitsu that are fundamental to all martial arts that require a feel, proprioception, or touch for response or decision.

In the future, I see myself tranisitioning to more IS/IT training which is a completely different set of exercises and skills that require letting go of some notions I have learned, and training in very specific ways.

As far as the basic "shomen strike/grab the wrist and throw the guy across the room" style of aikido...while there is a time and place for that, it is not my focus these days and I tend not to desire to spend much time in that right now.

So, hopefully I have conveyed that I believe that there can be many structures or frameworks within budo of aikido that allow us to train and accomplish our goals.

What is key is that we are using the right one for the right job. Hence alot of our discussions, as you know, center around "self defense or fighting". Certainly aikido can have much relevancy for this, but if this is your focus, then you'd have to train in a very specific manner, which many would say are not within the context of aikido.

Personally, I don't subscribe to limitation based on a particular set of rules or dogma...so I have no issues with the various ways of training as long as correct frameworks are used to train for the specific reasons.

Just to elaborate: we are not supposed to 'invent' the techniques rather than we are suppose to assimilate what we pick up from different senseis, training partners, weapons training etc and adjust it to fit our personal circumstances. Our body frame, length of arms and legs, speed and lots of other issues play a vital role.

Instead of making our body fit aikido - I think we should adapt our aikido to fit our bodies and minds. In that way we end up not being carbon copies of our senseis but rather new permutations with unique blends of physical and mental ability combined with unique blends of experience and knowledge.

JJ

Yes, I think it is important to synthesize and adapt what we do based on alot of factors as you mention. In BJJ in order to get your black belt this is essential. We call it "developing your game".

That said, I caution against using it as an excuse to be lazy and not practice things we may not want to. In judo there are many throws I don't like and would never probably use, however, it would not excuse me from being able to teach them or know them. So, we have to keep this in mind. I think that there should be a separation between developing your style and personality within Martial Arts, and mastering the fundamentals of a curriculum.

Disclaimer: Sometimes my practise is compromised by my ability to stay open towards learning, this is offcourse my personal issue and not worth debating here, so I would like to ask what you people think is a good framework for learning and practising Aikido in a positive spirit ? (without diving too deep into personal and psycological themes, I´m talking about the framework, not our individual idiosyncrasies)

IMHO, it is our individual psychological idiosyncracies that creates our learning framework in Aikido and life.

Mind open, I learn.

Mind shut, I don't

Perhaps you disclaimer is the answer to your question? Perhaps its because we dis-claim the opportunity and experience that we fail to learn from it?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!

I understand what you are talking about for sure. I think it is a hard discussion to have on the internet without the physical/non-verbal communication that comes from direct hands on.

Down in Stuttgart I am working with an instructor that has a constant stream of beginners and teaches a very basic and fundamental way that essentially communicates sound, but very, very basic structure of ashi taisho, posture, and mechanics. He does a great job of that with beginners I think.

However, there is not much there for me for my own growth, but I am learning from him how to teach beginners as I can really appreciate his methodology.

Vice, for my own practice, I tend to turn to guys like Dan Harden, Toby Threadgill, Marc Abrams, and my dojo back in DC when I can find the time to train with them where it is a whole different focus on movement and alot more subtle. In fact, all of these venues and people are different in their own way and I always take something out of the time spent.

I personally break my time up and concentrate on different aspects of budo/aikido/jiu jitsu, however, I spend most of my time in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu these days as I am making great gains in learning basic movements in jiu jitsu that are fundamental to all martial arts that require a feel, proprioception, or touch for response or decision.

In the future, I see myself tranisitioning to more IS/IT training which is a completely different set of exercises and skills that require letting go of some notions I have learned, and training in very specific ways.

As far as the basic "shomen strike/grab the wrist and throw the guy across the room" style of aikido...while there is a time and place for that, it is not my focus these days and I tend not to desire to spend much time in that right now.

So, hopefully I have conveyed that I believe that there can be many structures or frameworks within budo of aikido that allow us to train and accomplish our goals.

What is key is that we are using the right one for the right job. Hence alot of our discussions, as you know, center around "self defense or fighting". Certainly aikido can have much relevancy for this, but if this is your focus, then you'd have to train in a very specific manner, which many would say are not within the context of aikido.

Personally, I don't subscribe to limitation based on a particular set of rules or dogma...so I have no issues with the various ways of training as long as correct frameworks are used to train for the specific reasons.

Hi
I appreciate you spent time giving these clear answers.

It´s true that the interpretation of Aikido is generally restricted, but this is not about Aikido, and it is also true that it´s difficult to discuss in an open forum like this.

In my view the "whole package" should be present, at least as a mental framework for everyday practise.. At some point along the path it´s good to experience that Aikido is rooted in budo to fully comprehend the scope of Morihei Ueshiba O´senseis work and the influence of Takeda sensei.. as well as Onisaburo Deguchi.
(I say so knowing I have a long way to go)
I appreciate those senseis who work hard to transmit the roots and the basic curriculum because without that the arts would disintegrate. (this is not only true for Martial Arts but all arts in my view.)

I believe often there is a misunderstanding of concepts. Making sure the curriculum stays intact is not the same as making a carbon copy of O´sensei- this is not possible, but maintaining the connection to the roots is.

But anyway, Aikido is not a free ride.. and I am not quite ready to dive into other arts..
Even I feel other sword traditions would be rewarding to study, like Kashima Shinto Ryu.

I have watched Toby Threadgill and I am also impressed by Yanagi Ryu even I have only watched Don Angier sensei on youtube as well as Threadgill sensei.

Hey Jason, I agree. The only problem with resistance is that it must be controlled and training must be progressive. It does no good, as you know, to practice against resistance without having the correct structure in place.

But, yes, you do have to have resistance. The biggest problem I have is trying to have uke move in a way that is in a tactically correct response. So, for me, I think it is important to learn to be a good uke first, although that is also a catch 22 as in order to be a good uke, you have to have a good nage as well.

so, for me, an instructor that mentors and fosters the correct responses, as you state is most important.

Hey Jason, I agree. The only problem with resistance is that it must be controlled and training must be progressive. It does no good, as you know, to practice against resistance without having the correct structure in place.

But, yes, you do have to have resistance. The biggest problem I have is trying to have uke move in a way that is in a tactically correct response. So, for me, I think it is important to learn to be a good uke first, although that is also a catch 22 as in order to be a good uke, you have to have a good nage as well.

so, for me, an instructor that mentors and fosters the correct responses, as you state is most important.

Hi Kevin,

I feel that the resistance reinforces the need for strong structure. I definitely should have phrased is as progressive resistance though. Once they learn the basic movements it should be a series of ever progressing static resistances followed by more active attempts at reversals, counters, etc. Thanks for the reply.

When I think of a "framework", I think of a series of existing conditions, practices and structures into which the student brings whatever it is they bring to their practice. A good framework is one where a student who brings a sincere effort to learn this thing called aikido in a good faith manner, will make good progress toward their goals -- and where, if their goals are somehow wrongheaded, they'll be exposed to whatever they need to reconsider that. This framework can consist of some pretty ethereal stuff, but it also consists of really pragmatic things like the size and condition of the mat, the number and ability and attitude of the students, how hot or cold it is, etc.

Objective: to learn Aikido as a martial art (there can be many objectives, and each may require a different approach, so for simplicity we need to choose one first)
2nd objective: to be able to apply Aikido in a situation of reasonable averages (I.e. realistically against common level assailants, not some super duper master of kung fu out to rule the world)

Competencies:
1. Requires competency to attack as an attacker of average skill minimum.
This is necessary to experience biofeedback on Aikido being applied against such as an attack from the POV of the attacker itself.
2. Reasonable body flexibility and hardiness to survive the outcome of such an attack in a controlled environment and semi controlled response.
The aikido application would not be waza nor would it be full blown goshin. But since it cannot be a kata based, the eventual position uke will end up in is very hard to predict, thus there will be inherent risks involved which can be minimized if rules of engagement are explained early on and a the space is equipped with protective mats. Rules could be, attack with force and without warning, but as soon as critical areas of uke's body have been addressed by nage and balance is lost such that he is now in an untenable position, he needs to relax and allow himself to be safely positioned into the mat.

That's the first stage as an introducer to Aikido. Classes cannot go on like that. Even Systema with its natural approach to class learning requires more body conditioning and drills rather than uncheorographed sessions for the students to get anywhere.

2nd stage is body conditioning: Aiki taiso and tai sabaki and ukemi. These are body skills designed to create measurable improvements to your physical make up and skills in order to engage in Aikido learning.

3rd stage are kihon waza and genri. Kihon kata and kihon principles will equip students will aikido learning sets in order for them to understand the various languages and interpretations of their Sensei, shihan, peers, sempai and other sensei's. The basics provide them the common ground to communicate between Aikidoka's of different nations so to speak. The babel fish.

4th and onwards. This should begin at shodan typically, where henka, kaeshi, Aiki, an etc are introduced. First by gradual transition from kihon and nagare applications. Then to goshin. Then to anything goes situations.
The process for learning real aikido begins.

Fwiw, those are my thoughts.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.

Objective: to learn Aikido as a martial art (there can be many objectives, and each may require a different approach, so for simplicity we need to choose one first)
2nd objective: to be able to apply Aikido in a situation of reasonable averages (I.e. realistically against common level assailants, not some super duper master of kung fu out to rule the world)

Competencies:
1. Requires competency to attack as an attacker of average skill minimum.
This is necessary to experience biofeedback on Aikido being applied against such as an attack from the POV of the attacker itself.
2. Reasonable body flexibility and hardiness to survive the outcome of such an attack in a controlled environment and semi controlled response.
The aikido application would not be waza nor would it be full blown goshin. But since it cannot be a kata based, the eventual position uke will end up in is very hard to predict, thus there will be inherent risks involved which can be minimized if rules of engagement are explained early on and a the space is equipped with protective mats. Rules could be, attack with force and without warning, but as soon as critical areas of uke's body have been addressed by nage and balance is lost such that he is now in an untenable position, he needs to relax and allow himself to be safely positioned into the mat.

That's the first stage as an introducer to Aikido. Classes cannot go on like that. Even Systema with its natural approach to class learning requires more body conditioning and drills rather than uncheorographed sessions for the students to get anywhere.

2nd stage is body conditioning: Aiki taiso and tai sabaki and ukemi. These are body skills designed to create measurable improvements to your physical make up and skills in order to engage in Aikido learning.

3rd stage are kihon waza and genri. Kihon kata and kihon principles will equip students will aikido learning sets in order for them to understand the various languages and interpretations of their Sensei, shihan, peers, sempai and other sensei's. The basics provide them the common ground to communicate between Aikidoka's of different nations so to speak. The babel fish.

4th and onwards. This should begin at shodan typically, where henka, kaeshi, Aiki, an etc are introduced. First by gradual transition from kihon and nagare applications. Then to goshin. Then to anything goes situations.
The process for learning real aikido begins.

Fwiw, those are my thoughts.

Thanks a lot Ahmad, I really appreciate your very straight forward explanation and I love that things are straight forward because often things can become too complicated if we start with the advanced
principles first and work our way towards the basics.
Peace
Lars

I think that my reply to one of the other subjects that are currently on the board will explain my point of view further.

Just to elaborate: we are not supposed to 'invent' the techniques rather than we are suppose to assimilate what we pick up from different senseis, training partners, weapons training etc and adjust it to fit our personal circumstances. Our body frame, length of arms and legs, speed and lots of other issues play a vital role.

Instead of making our body fit aikido - I think we should adapt our aikido to fit our bodies and minds. In that way we end up not being carbon copies of our senseis but rather new permutations with unique blends of physical and mental ability combined with unique blends of experience and knowledge.

In my point of view Aikido is not a goal - it's a path. And each and every single one of us will - and should - have unique aikido.

We recently had a DAF training in Odense with three different 'styles' (in lack of a better word) of aikido on the mat for three hours. Where you there? It was very interesting.

Now - if you should happen to go by Fyn some time drop by and let us discuss this further or come to the workshop in june where all DAF dojo's will be gathered. That should be quite interesting

See ya!

JJ

I think what you say is true, and I think we all have the need to find our own way of progression, and in some ways mine differs from yours and vice versa.
I find it usefull to discuss the basic approaches to see what the variations are because maybe I can learn something important this way.
I don´t have the time and money right now for many seminars but I did attend the previous DAF
"venskabslejr" and I found it very informative and interresting to try some Nishio style Aikido.
I think in 2003.. I´m not sure exactly I attended a 5 or 6..? day Nishio Easter Aikido seminar in DGI byen, but I was a rookie at that time, only knew some basic oldschool Danish aikido stuff (dating back to Ichimura sensei) and found it difficult to grasp all the different weapons drills in Nishio Aikido.
Unfortunately Nishio sensei wasn´t present at the seminar.. I would have liked to meet him actually.. I have heard that Nishio sensei and Saito sensei had a good connection- Biru waza style..

Dear Daniel
I like that qoute but I am a bit uncertain how I should interprete it. Maybe it´s because I feel that the structure and framework for training is allready present, that is not something I created but rather something I should explore and become aware of during regular practise. Is this a prober interpretation you think ?
Thanks
Lars

Sounds like you are well equipped already for learning, down the track when/if the quote is helpful... use it!