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Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by QuirhidMindless grind and spawncamping? -No thank you.

When you run back n forth from npc to where you are sent on an errand,is that mindless?You bet it is ,even more mindless becuase yo uare doiong absolutely nothing except press the arrow keys for direction.If you think pushing direction keys is fun,you can still do that in a camp.

FFX iis the game that actually evolved,all these other games have taken concepts and just try to eliminate any game design or any effort.You do not get credit for evolving game play by doing less work designing your game.

A really good analogy to game design...

Quests are errands and this is how they operate in most games.

Your mom wants you to go get some milk and a loaf of bread.However gamers are lazy and don't like to think,so MOM is going ahead of you and laying out some bread crumbs for you to follow.

Ok so now you come back that whole time running back,you feel like you have become a MUCH more experienced HOCKEY player,so your stick skills and passing and skating skills all go up,all because you went to go get that loaf of bread and milk.SO upon arrival Mom gives you experience to all hockey skills.

See how ridiculous that is??Well that is exactly what quests are doing.

Game design is actually disrespecting the gamers intelligence and not by a little,by a LOT !.

Both models have less to do with a gamer's intelligence than their endurance. Virtually none of these games are deep enough to engage the intellect through their gameplay alone; it's most often the metagame where we find any real challenge. I don't think the analogy, in any case, comes close to describing what's going on in modern MMOs. The real question to be asked is how progression can be made interesting over the long term. Quests were an answer to widespread dissatisfaction with spawn camping and mob-grinding, now people are looking for the a horizon that lies beyond hubs and NPCs with exclamation points. If I take a look around at some of the newer games, it's obvious that baby steps are being made in that direction.

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I'm fine with quests telling stories but when gameplay is a never ending successive string of them? Too much and before the "you don't have to do them".. Yes, you do if mob xp is garbage which most of the time is the case.

I do like stories both in books and in games but it's this very reason I would like less quests. I am playing MY story rather than following a prewritten one. That to me is more immersive and creates a connection to my avatar. Not the "Human Paladin #27540" feeling that linear quest MMOs give.

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Originally posted by osiriszoran

Yes, logging in for 20 mins to run a dungeon, collect your daily loot quests. then not log back in until a raid time is very RPG. MMOARCADE is the new type of game people are loving which is ok if thats what they want. However, dont hate on true mmorpg vets who see past the shallowness of the wow clones.

"True MMORPG vets" what a load of complete and utter garbage. You are not special. You do not have any more clarity on the subject than anyone else. Your opinion is not any more valid than that of a modern player. You can call yourself a vet, hardcore..whatever else you want and in the end it means nothing. I was around before WoW. I was playing MMORPGs before WoW. You know what that makes me? F*cking old. Not special.

How anyone can call sitting around waiting for a spawn not shallow is beyond me. That is the laziest, most boring game mechanic ever invented. Waiting is not playing..waiting is waiting. I would rather log in for 20 mins to run a dungeon, collect my daily loot quests. Then not log back in until a raid time rather than sit in a chatroom with a bunch of bored people waiting to kill things. I'm sorry that I want to play a game and not trade in my entire life for this epic experience of waiting and talking.

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Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by osiriszoran

Yes, logging in for 20 mins to run a dungeon, collect your daily loot quests. then not log back in until a raid time is very RPG. MMOARCADE is the new type of game people are loving which is ok if thats what they want. However, dont hate on true mmorpg vets who see past the shallowness of the wow clones.

"True MMORPG vets" what a load of complete and utter garbage. You are not special. You do not have any more clarity on the subject than anyone else. Your opinion is not any more valid than that of a modern player. You can call yourself a vet, hardcore..whatever else you want and in the end it means nothing. I was around before WoW. I was playing MMORPGs before WoW. You know what that makes me? F*cking old. Not special.

How anyone can call sitting around waiting for a spawn not shallow is beyond me. That is the laziest, most boring game mechanic ever invented. Waiting is not playing..waiting is waiting. I would rather log in for 20 mins to run a dungeon, collect my daily loot quests. Then not log back in until a raid time rather than sit in a chatroom with a bunch of bored people waiting to kill things. I'm sorry that I want to play a game and not trade in my entire life for this epic experience of waiting and talking.

yes and is exactly why YOU now enjoy MMOARCADE. I also never said mob camping was a fun tactic. I never played EQ or mob camped. I think SWG did this right by making random dynamic spawns which i feel is the way to go. You had to constantly hunt for the spawn you wanted and they would constantly spawn in different locations....making professions like scout/ranger very lucrative for finding the dynamic spawn you wanted.

Also, MMORPGS were NEVER EVER supposed to be about instant gratification. You were supposed to build your character up slowly. Mold them over time at your own pace. MMOARCADE is all about gearing your character up ASAP. Just look at WoW, you can get to max level in a week or two with moderate to high playtime. As soon as you get max level you can be raid ready in a week. INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

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Originally posted by Lonzo

Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

I miss those days...

You were doing the same thing in multiple places. That is still just one way of leveling you are just doing it in different places. Most games launched today have more ways of leveling than EQ had. You couldn't level from pvp, you couldn't level from gathering/crafting, you didn't get xp from exploring new places. You killed stuff, that was it. Don't get me wrong, 90% of what you do now is kill stuff also, but my main point is there was really only 1 way to gain xp in everquest, you could just do it in more places.

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You have no clue what I enjoy. All you know from what I posted is what I do not enjoy. Your assumptions are incredible.

I also never said mob camping was a fun tactic. I never played EQ or mob camped. I think SWG did this right by making random dynamic spawns which i feel is the way to go. You had to constantly hunt for the spawn you wanted and they would constantly spawn in different locations....making professions like scout/ranger very lucrative for finding the dynamic spawn you wanted.

SWG was my first MMO. I was there until the lights went out. That was such a small and insignificant part of what made SWG great. In fact the game would have been just as good with out it.

Also, MMORPGS were NEVER EVER supposed to be about instant gratification. You were supposed to build your character up slowly. Mold them over time at your own pace.

That is what they were supposed to be in YOUR opinion. YOUR vision. No where does it say that is how a mmorpg should be. That is the play style you enjoy. It is obvious that the vast majority of MMO players do not enjoy that or WoW would not have dominated for as long as it has. Why is it so hard for people like you to distinguish what is fact and what is personal preference?

MMOARCADE is all about gearing your character up ASAP. Just look at WoW, you can get to max level in a week or two with moderate to high playtime. As soon as you get max level you can be raid ready in a week. INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

What is your point? That people should not enjoy that style of MMORPG? Yes, they are MMORPGs no matter how many times you try to say MMOARCADE. Get over yourself. Once again you show that elitist attitude that turns people away from your concepts and ideas even if they have merit.

The day that MMORPGs became mainstream so many people had a hard time adjusting. This genre has moved out of some dingy basement in your parents house. It has become a very profitabale, mainstream industry and as long as there is large amounts of money to be made it will not be going back there. You can be bitter and feel that you are somehow better than everyone else or you can adjust. Either way MMORPGs will keep on evolving and changing with or with out you.

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You have no clue what I enjoy. All you know from what I posted is what I do not enjoy. Your assumptions are incredible.

I also never said mob camping was a fun tactic. I never played EQ or mob camped. I think SWG did this right by making random dynamic spawns which i feel is the way to go. You had to constantly hunt for the spawn you wanted and they would constantly spawn in different locations....making professions like scout/ranger very lucrative for finding the dynamic spawn you wanted.

SWG was my first MMO. I was there until the lights went out. That was such a small and insignificant part of what made SWG great. In fact the game would have been just as good with out it.

Also, MMORPGS were NEVER EVER supposed to be about instant gratification. You were supposed to build your character up slowly. Mold them over time at your own pace.

That is what they were supposed to be in YOUR opinion. YOUR vision. No where does it say that is how a mmorpg should be. That is the play style you enjoy. It is obvious that the vast majority of MMO players do not enjoy that or WoW would not have dominated for as long as it has. Why is it so hard for people like you to distinguish what is fact and what is personal preference?

MMOARCADE is all about gearing your character up ASAP. Just look at WoW, you can get to max level in a week or two with moderate to high playtime. As soon as you get max level you can be raid ready in a week. INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

What is your point? That people should not enjoy that style of MMORPG? Yes, they are MMORPGs no matter how many times you try to say MMOARCADE. Get over yourself. Once again you show that elitist attitude that turns people away from your concepts and ideas even if they have merit.

The day that MMORPGs became mainstream so many people had a hard time adjusting. This genre has moved out of some dingy basement in your parents house. It has become a very profitabale, mainstream industry and as long as there is large amounts of money to be made it will not be going back there. You can be bitter and feel that you are somehow better than everyone else or you can adjust. Either way MMORPGs will keep on evolving and changing with or with out you.

Yes as long as there are sheeple and the memememe generation to pander to devs will always have the MMOARCADERs to throw money at them. Its all good. Keep throwing your money at them. Im keeping mine till a dev makes a mmorph worthy of it. Im chill living in the real world and playing single player games i can beat and throw away.

Also, since swg was our first MMORPG then you know it wasnt the style of gameplay that killed it, rather the inexperience of the Devs and not fixing problems quickly or efficiently. People loved the style of gameplay. LOVED IT.

The style can make a comeback. Just no Dev team has tried. They all trying to cash in on the Wow clone money train. #FACT

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Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by Lonzo

Why all these Quest games? With leveling by questing you are limited to just ONE way of leveling. Back in the days with EQ there where leveling groups everywhere in every dungeon and in every zone. It was just good old dungeon crawling. And the few quests seem very important and meaningful....

I miss those days...

You were doing the same thing in multiple places. That is still just one way of leveling you are just doing it in different places. Most games launched today have more ways of leveling than EQ had. You couldn't level from pvp, you couldn't level from gathering/crafting, you didn't get xp from exploring new places. You killed stuff, that was it. Don't get me wrong, 90% of what you do now is kill stuff also, but my main point is there was really only 1 way to gain xp in everquest, you could just do it in more places.

Let's not lie to ourselves. The only viable way to level up in modern MMOs is to grind quests. In old MMOs I could level up through 4 different PvE means. Now there is only one.

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Originally posted by LonzoYou can see with this hot topic how big the demand for EQ1 like games is..

What I don't understand is why there are so many people agressively fighting against oldschool PvE.

I mean, we're fighting FOR that PvE because it doesn't exist in modern MMOs. They already have the kind of gameplay they like in a thousand different WoW clones, are they really that bitter and selfish that they will not allow us to have our style of gameplay?

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when every MMORPG starts to become carbon copies of themselves....level up by questing, pvp in battlegrounds, instanced dungeons/raids, crafting as an afterthought. ZERO attempts at letting players influence the world, and a gear treadmill...eople will start to stop playing them and leave.

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EQ had quests, but they weren't used to lvl. The only quest I can remember being used to get some xp was that orc belt quest. Many quests didn't give xp at all, if you wanted to get xp in EQ you had to kill stuff, period.

I think I did maybe 2 quests from lvl 1 to lvl 40.

It's weird that it's called EverQuest, since people assume it was a quest based game like WoW, no, you couldn't be farther from the truth with that. If you wanted xp you had one choice, kill mobs.

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Originally posted by osiriszoran

Yes as long as there are sheeple and the memememe generation to pander to devs will always have the MMOARCADERs to throw money at them. Its all good. Keep throwing your money at them. Im keeping mine till a dev makes a mmorph worthy of it. Im chill living in the real world and playing single player games i can beat and throw away.

You don't seem to chill to me. You seem like a bitter, insulting, elitist that can't handle the fact that people enjoy the games of today. People will keep paying for games that THEY enjoy. Thats pretty much how the world works. People will pay to have fun.

Also, since swg was our first MMORPG then you know it wasnt the style of gameplay that killed it, rather the inexperience of the Devs and not fixing problems quickly or efficiently. People loved the style of gameplay. LOVED IT.

I loved it. You loved it and about 250k other people loved it. Not a huge success by any stretch of the imagination for an IP as popular as SW. There where many things that brought SWG down. SOE's total incompetence most definitly played a big part in that. Thats for another thread though.

The style can make a comeback.

Pure speculation as to how popular it would be but yes I agree. There is a place for an MMORPG like SWG in this genre. As long as the expectations of the developer were low and they realized it would only be a niche game. That doesn't mean it would not be profitable. It just won't be WoW profitable.

Just no Dev team has tried.

Some developers have tried to incorporate elements similar to those of SWG in to their game and they all failed for various reasons. VG and Fallen Earth are two that come to mind.

They all trying to cash in on the Wow clone money train. #FACT

Yes, most of them are. Chasing that money usually doesn't do them very much good but after they go F2P they seem to be better off than SWG ever was.

I know the game I want is niche. Insulting people that like what todays games offer is pointless. It is not their fault mine is not being made. Saying stupid shit like MMOARCADE accomplishes nothing.

I play all sorts of games. I enjoy a wide variety of playstyles. I play WoW off and on and I can see what it has to offer. I can credit Blizzard for making a great game. Obviously the most popular MMO ever created and what it does it does extremely well. That doesn't mean I like what SWG had to offer any less.

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Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by osiriszoran

Yes as long as there are sheeple and the memememe generation to pander to devs will always have the MMOARCADERs to throw money at them. Its all good. Keep throwing your money at them. Im keeping mine till a dev makes a mmorph worthy of it. Im chill living in the real world and playing single player games i can beat and throw away.

You don't seem to chill to me. You seem like a bitter, insulting, elitist that can't handle the fact that people enjoy the games of today. People will keep paying for games that THEY enjoy. Thats pretty much how the world works. People will pay to have fun.

Also, since swg was our first MMORPG then you know it wasnt the style of gameplay that killed it, rather the inexperience of the Devs and not fixing problems quickly or efficiently. People loved the style of gameplay. LOVED IT.

I loved it. You loved it and about 250k other people loved it. Not a huge success by any stretch of the imagination for an IP as popular as SW. There where many things that brought SWG down. SOE's total incompetence most definitly played a big part in that. Thats for another thread though.

The style can make a comeback.

Pure speculation as to how popular it would be but yes I agree. There is a place for an MMORPG like SWG in this genre. As long as the expectations of the developer were low and they realized it would only be a niche game. That doesn't mean it would not be profitable. It just won't be WoW profitable.

Just no Dev team has tried.

Some developers have tried to incorporate elements similar to those of SWG in to their game and they all failed for various reasons. VG and Fallen Earth are two that come to mind.

They all trying to cash in on the Wow clone money train. #FACT

Yes, most of them are. Chasing that money usually doesn't do them very much good but after they go F2P they seem to be better off than SWG ever was.

I know the game I want is niche. Insulting people that like what todays games offer is pointless. It is not their fault mine is not being made. Saying stupid shit like MMOARCADE accomplishes nothing.

I play all sorts of games. I enjoy a wide variety of playstyles. I play WoW off and on and I can see what it has to offer. I can credit Blizzard for making a great game. Obviously the most popular MMO ever created and what it does it does extremely well. That doesn't mean I like what SWG had to offer any less.

Well if the dev team is not very good then anything they produce will be crap (vanguard/FE). You're also speculating btw by saying if a dev team tried to make an mmo that was basically SWG 2.0 that it would fail or not get wow numbers. I think you're wrong. I think if a dev team took a serious look at what swg did right, what wow did right, and what eq/uo did right, someone could make an amazing mmorpg. The problem is, i dont think any current dev team wants to committ to such a tremendous task. Like i said, most of them just want to pump out a wow clone and try for the cash grab.

SWG didnt die from lack of playerbase. it stll had 100k when it was taken offline. It died from its license being pulled in hopes of making TOR a wow killer.