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There are doubles, and then there are DOUBLES. There are blinds, and then there are BLINDS.

At the Senior level of testing the participants should be challenged by the non-capitalized versions of both. If their dogs were capable of doing Master level tests, they would enter Master.

Why some people would actually set up a poison bird blind at this level is a mystery to me. -Paul

Exactly why I quit running senior so many years ago. All the bells and whistles of a master test are in a senior, why not wait and train to deal with another bird. From a judging perspective I would do everything I can to keep from putting a blind up the middle and running it first. That being said I ran a client dog in a senior some years ago and the judges explained that the blind would be ran last as a separate series. We ran the double, then they moved us around the pond and ran the blind through both fall areas of the previous double. If you don't like the blind being run first between two gun stations, then consider how much worse it could be.....

I have read everyone's post on this an have enjoyed reading everyone of them. This is a great discussion. I run and judge at the Jr and Sr levels. I believe in challenging dogs on setups an want to be a challenging test when I run my dogs. I for one would try my best as a judge NOT to put on this type of test as I agree at this level of dogs it can be to much. BUT IT IS A LEGAL TEST. An UNFAIR TEST BUT LEGAL TEST. An this is why SHALL NOT......... That is why. It doesn't say WILL NOT or CAN NOT. Read in rule book under PLANNING HUNTING SITUATIONS at the bottom of paragraph it states " while keep in mind the fact that retrieves should not normally exceed 100 yards." The key words was SHOULD NOT in that statement. How many test have we all ran at all levels the marks are over 100 yards? They can put them past 100yards because the wording SHOULD NOT. If the rule book read Blinds WILL NOT or CAN NOT be ran between marks in Senior Test it would make the test not legal. We all have thank AKC for this. I had this discussion with Jerry Mann myself an that was the key to the whole thing. Wording of the rules he pointed out. He AGREES with us on not being a fair test but it is legal because they ran the blind first.

Like I said at beginning of this response I DON'T agree with blinds between marks at Senior level. But it was a legal test. I would make note of those judges an try NOT to run under them again. That's best way to deal with it.

Just so everyone know the reason I talk to Jerry Mann on this is because I have ran a Sr test on water that the blind was between the marks. It was more under the arc of one mark that bird landed way out in water an both marks where down wind of blind. Blind was ran first with invite to the marks. I give these judges good credit of take bird scent factory out. There was a 30+ dog field in this test an 20+ dogs passed the test. I was of them an it was for a title. That day I really felt I earned it.

I DID NOT agree with the test but it was LEGAL cause blind was ran first. Plus I don't agree on running blinds before marks at senior level. Most dogs go out on blinds. So they don't even get to do the marks by running blind first. Not big fan at all

Last edited by duckdogs167; 10-16-2013 at 11:02 AM.
Reason: Meant water not was

"Blinds shall not be run after a set of marks have been presented to a dog, but prior to those marks being retrieved"

OR

"Blinds shall not be located between marks"

or some other wording that better specifies the intent of the rule

Exactly right. And the fact that this issue seems to have been run up the flagpole before with no such clarifying change to the rules speaks volumes about what is permissible in an SH test IMHO. Still begs the question as to whether this should be done except as a matter of last resort.

Some of you are going to respond to my post on wording of rule book. I hope that your response is that the wording should be change so it not a GRAY area as I've been told me a time when discussion the rules. Make it clear to us all handlers and judges.

Although I do see your point in regard to context, I do not necessarily agree with the when/where statement.

I will walk between cars (where, but non specific). I will walk between THE cars (where, but specific to some previously mentioned cars).

Words DO have meaning, but they can have several meaning even in a single context.

The rule could be clarified to say:

"Blinds shall not be run after a set of marks have been presented to a dog, but prior to those marks being retrieved"

OR

"Blinds shall not be located between marks"

or some other wording that better specifies the intent of the rule

What sucks though is they DONT say something like that,, and it leaves Huge interpretational opinions open,, and as such, the handler is the one who suffers, cause he doesnt know by reading the rules, what to expect,, OR he just says "screw it" and runs master.

I think most here agree that in TRAINING you TRAIN above the level you are thinking about running. So,, a Senior dog, probably has the training, and talent to run one of these tests, BUT THATS NOT THE POINT! The different levels are for Progression. Maybe as a handelr, you want to guage how solid your dogs work is compared to the Senior written standard. NOT what someones OPINION is about needing to challenge dogs more,, or setting up a Ball buster tests just to proove he can...
I dont believe a Senior test should be a Master minus one mark.

I wish I had a dog , and I wish that dog had a handler that could COMPETE at a higher level (FT) because the more things change,, COMPETITION makes far more sense to me now..

Gooser

It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin DawgHRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.HRCH FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)

My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"