I am fed up with all this nonsense of him not deserving a Formula One ride. Sure enough his father's wealth did fund him throughout his career so far but he has also proven himself to be a talented driver; 2014 he won the Italian F4 championship; 2015 He was Toyota Racing Series champion in New Zealand and i 2016 he won the European F3 Championship, winning over 10 races. He deserves to be where he is in F 1. Give him time.

His problem is not his ability. He is one second per lap slower than Massa who can be counted as a successful driver. This last second he will find somewhere along the road. But this one second difference is what makes today difference between succes and failure.

His problem is that he was put to F1 way to soon. And he was not THAT good, to get the seat on the merit just now. If he spent another 2-3 years in lower series, he would mature on many more levels.

Now, what is his future? He needs a good result very soon. He might loose all his credentials and be forever gone from F1 if he does not improve. And who would give him a chance again, if he goes from failure to failure from one race to another?

On the positive side, the points are just around the corner, and he will surely get them. This will improve his self-confidence and push his a level higher.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Stroll in a way. I think he has been let down by those looking after him. He has been thrown into a competitive seat way to early and he is getting embarrassed. He had the super licence points in the bag for 3 years so he could have done a couple of GP3 seasons and come in for 2019 ready to go.

He's said he has issues int he same corners on the PS4… Reeeally??You have one of the most sophisticated simulators at Williams and you're comparing the real thing to a console?I'd guesstimate the fact he plays on a console might be why he binned it today. Not having the G-Force simulation plays a huge role in how a driver understands a track.Tat bit or road falls away and you need to be easy going into it and then accelerate to create resistance so the rear can allow you to continue to accelerate a bit harder.The one thing I'll say is that he recognized he was coming in wrong very early in the turn and got off it nicely so the impact was quite light. Goes to show how fragile the carbon bits on these cars are. I still think they should be running Ti suspension components, but the fragility of the CF means those parts will give before inflicting damage to the rest of the car.

Now, what is his future? He needs a good result very soon. He might loose all his credentials and be forever gone from F1 if he does not improve. And who would give him a chance again, if he goes from failure to failure from one race to another?

On the positive side, the points are just around the corner, and he will surely get them. This will improve his self-confidence and push his a level higher.

Now, what is his future? He needs a good result very soon. He might loose all his credentials and be forever gone from F1 if he does not improve. And who would give him a chance again, if he goes from failure to failure from one race to another?

On the positive side, the points are just around the corner, and he will surely get them. This will improve his self-confidence and push his a level higher.

What will be considered a good result for Stroll?

Let's say 7th or 8th place. With some luck that he missed, he could get it. Actually, I am sure he will get it. That's some 3-4 positions bellow of what is Massa capable now with his current car.

The only thing you can go by are his results compared to someone in an identical car. He lost a lot of running, but his team mate did not in the same car. He has DNF's his team mate does not in the same car.

The criticism is well founded, in my opinion. Stroll was clearly not ready for Formula 1, and on merit he wouldn't last the season. Harsh, but that's just the way it is. He's nowhere compared to Massa, and Massa himself isn't quick enough to win races without the best car.

I don't feel that, based on current evidence, he would never deserve a F1 drive... but he clearly wasn't ready for it yet. At the very least he could have done with another season in maybe GP3 or F2 before getting actually promoted to F1. He doesn't seem like a hopeless case -- occasionally he does show bursts of speed, which is better than never doing so -- but overall he's been quite off the pace with a few more crashes than one would hope for. Obviously there are people who were ready for F1 at this point in their career, but not terribly many, and it seems Stroll wasn't one of them.

It's perfectly reasonable to criticise his performance at this point, because he hasn't been performing even as well as one would hope for from a rookie, but I would agree that it's not fair to declare him never fit to race in F1 yet. It's hard to say for sure whether he would've earned a race seat on merit in a few years' time, but I wouldn't rule that out. However, being given one so soon may well have done significantly more harm than good for his career, because now he'll have to get up to speed in F1 in a couple of years' time rather than have a chance to work his way up.

I suppose really as it stands I'm more critical of the decision to put him in the Williams seat at this time than I am of his driving. I don't know how much of that was his decision, but he presumably at least had a large say in the matter, and it would've been wiser to wait.

He's out of his depth. His father's wealth may have bought him a competitive advantage in the junior series but now he's at the highest echelon and on a level playing field with everyone else he's being found out.

He is still young though and regardless of other factors you don't win in the lower series without having some degree of talent. He may yet develop into a competent F1 driver in a few years, but I doubt it. Inexperienced but talented young drivers who get thrust into F1 too quickly usually at least show a good turn of speed even if they're lacking in other areas. Stroll on the other hand is over a second slower than Massa at times, which at this level is a shocking margin.

I think if you swapped the Williams and Red Bull drivers over the teams results would swap round accordingly.

This weekend, I don't think so. But at a normal circuit I do think the RBR is only a tenth or two ahead of the Williams on pure car pace alone - the rest is the drivers.

I think their bang equal on average on car pace. I agree this race Williams is behind Red Bull.

I think the Williams has been a terrible car here for the past few years. I do think this was proved in practice that it is pretty bad. Both Stroll and Massa reporting a huge lack of grip. The Williams just doesn't have enough down force to be very competitive here. It is rubbish at slow speed corners and not having any long straits won't help. IMO, if either of them get points in the race, it will be pretty impressive. That is if there were not a load of retirements to help of course.

Williams do seem to be very mixed at what tracks suit the car well. Even though Silverstone has loads of tight corners, the Williams often seems extremely good there in recent years.

Anyway, about Stroll, I do just think he came into F1 too early. Even if his poor form continues, I don't think he shouldn't be given another chance as he may suddenly turn around and start being more like Verstappen was. People seemed to rate Verstappen's first season highly because of what he did considering his age. Yes that may have been impressive but I don't think the season was actually that impressive. He had some very good races, but some really bad ones. Stroll hasn't yet had a good race, but he hasn't had the chance in 3 of them so we should ignore them really. In the actual race themselves, he hasn't been to blame for a retirement yet. Verstappen cost himself 2 races in 2015, possibly more. Nothing has been proved yet that Stroll can't complete every other race this year. I think he will still have several more poor weekends but he will be learning throughout them.

I think if you swapped the Williams and Red Bull drivers over the teams results would swap round accordingly.

This weekend, I don't think so. But at a normal circuit I do think the RBR is only a tenth or two ahead of the Williams on pure car pace alone - the rest is the drivers.

I think their bang equal on average on car pace. I agree this race Williams is behind Red Bull.

I think the Williams has been a terrible car here for the past few years. I do think this was proved in practice that it is pretty bad. Both Stroll and Massa reporting a huge lack of grip. The Williams just doesn't have enough down force to be very competitive here. It is rubbish at slow speed corners and not having any long straits won't help. IMO, if either of them get points in the race, it will be pretty impressive. That is if there were not a load of retirements to help of course.

Williams do seem to be very mixed at what tracks suit the car well. Even though Silverstone has loads of tight corners, the Williams often seems extremely good there in recent years.

Anyway, about Stroll, I do just think he came into F1 too early. Even if his poor form continues, I don't think he shouldn't be given another chance as he may suddenly turn around and start being more like Verstappen was. People seemed to rate Verstappen's first season highly because of what he did considering his age. Yes that may have been impressive but I don't think the season was actually that impressive. He had some very good races, but some really bad ones. Stroll hasn't yet had a good race, but he hasn't had the chance in 3 of them so we should ignore them really. In the actual race themselves, he hasn't been to blame for a retirement yet. Verstappen cost himself 2 races in 2015, possibly more. Nothing has been proved yet that Stroll can't complete every other race this year. I think he will still have several more poor weekends but he will be learning throughout them.

I think that's as much down to the drivers as much as anything. Same as their poor reputation in the wet.

He's out of his depth. His father's wealth may have bought him a competitive advantage in the junior series but now he's at the highest echelon and on a level playing field with everyone else he's being found out.

He is still young though and regardless of other factors you don't win in the lower series without having some degree of talent. He may yet develop into a competent F1 driver in a few years, but I doubt it. Inexperienced but talented young drivers who get thrust into F1 too quickly usually at least show a good turn of speed even if they're lacking in other areas. Stroll on the other hand is over a second slower than Massa at times, which at this level is a shocking margin.

Exactly this, he won in F3 because dad bought the entire damn team to make sure it happened, he is way out of his depth in F1 and shouldn't be there.

He's out of his depth. His father's wealth may have bought him a competitive advantage in the junior series but now he's at the highest echelon and on a level playing field with everyone else he's being found out.

He is still young though and regardless of other factors you don't win in the lower series without having some degree of talent. He may yet develop into a competent F1 driver in a few years, but I doubt it. Inexperienced but talented young drivers who get thrust into F1 too quickly usually at least show a good turn of speed even if they're lacking in other areas. Stroll on the other hand is over a second slower than Massa at times, which at this level is a shocking margin.

Exactly this, he won in F3 because dad bought the entire damn team to make sure it happened, he is way out of his depth in F1 and shouldn't be there.

All this and thankfully the new cars are harder to drive on the limit, if he came into his rookie season say in the last five years or so maybe he would look serviceable.

_________________"There's nothing wrong with the car except that it's on fire".Murray Walker

I am fed up with all this nonsense of him not deserving a Formula One ride. Sure enough his father's wealth did fund him throughout his career so far but he has also proven himself to be a talented driver; 2014 he won the Italian F4 championship; 2015 He was Toyota Racing Series champion in New Zealand and i 2016 he won the European F3 Championship, winning over 10 races. He deserves to be where he is in F 1. Give him time.

In F3 his Father bought him advantages over the competition, he bought the best team in F3 for starters, he had Williams develop parts for his car only, he bought a F3 simulator for him which was kept at the Williams factory for only Stroll to use, this was better than Williams own F1 simulator, plus his teammates were quite generous on the track.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Stroll in a way. I think he has been let down by those looking after him. He has been thrown into a competitive seat way to early and he is getting embarrassed. He had the super licence points in the bag for 3 years so he could have done a couple of GP3 seasons and come in for 2019 ready to go.

There is a reason why Williams really did not want to give up Bottas when Mercedes first indicated they wanted him. There is also a reason why Williams, after they had to let Bottas leave, ensured they put a known quantity in at least one of their cars by unretiring Massa. Lance Stroll's junior career was always suspect and anyone who followed it and read about it knew he had virtually no chance of being competitive at this level. I can understand Williams for wanting to secure that hefty sum they received for Lance's seat, but I think they must have known he wasn't going to perform. So shame on them for putting him in that seat. There are so many more deserving drivers...

Is it time to introduce an age restriction in F1 as it seems that no matter how good your driving may have been in junior formulae as Stroll and Verstappen have shown maturity is important too?

Ironically, I feel that Stroll is far more mature than Verstappen was when he came to F1. Nowhere near as good, but more mature.

I don't feel anything needs to be changed in the rules to keep another Stroll out. Maybe increase the super license requirements to make a driver do at least one season in a top-level feeder series, but that's the only thing I'd change. Based on the face value of his record, he earned a shot in F1.

In F3 his Father bought him advantages over the competition, he bought the best team in F3 for starters, he had Williams develop parts for his car only, he bought a F3 simulator for him which was kept at the Williams factory for only Stroll to use, this was better than Williams own F1 simulator, plus his teammates were quite generous on the track.

Do you have any proof for this? Because I consider it pure hearsay. F3 is a spec series, and there's very little they could have legally done to give him an advantage.

I think that's as much down to the drivers as much as anything. Same as their poor reputation in the wet.

So the drivers are why Williams does well at high speed tracks, poorly at downforce tracks, and doesn't seem to have any grip in the rain?

Not sure I'm buying that one. I think that's just genuine car characteristics at play.

That's not what the post I was replying to said. I replied to a sentence about how the tracks Williams performed well at were quite mixed. I think that is largely due to the inconsistency in the drivers as well as the car.

I think the poor in the wet thing is definitely the drivers as much as the car. We know matter is poor in the wet and Bottas was usually beaten by him.

That's not what the post I was replying to said. I replied to a sentence about how the tracks Williams performed well at were quite mixed. I think that is largely due to the inconsistency in the drivers as well as the car.

I think the poor in the wet thing is definitely the drivers as much as the car. We know matter is poor in the wet and Bottas was usually beaten by him.

Actually, I think Massa being poor in the wet is little more than an urban legend based on a single race at Silverstone 9 years ago, and Bottas was the driver who qualified his Williams 3rd on the grid at a wet session in 2013. Statistically, there's nothing to back up claims of Massa being poor in the wet; he has a much higher percentage of wet wins than dry, and performed similarly against Alonso in both conditions. Bottas has a lot less data points, but presumably during this season we'll get more chances to assess him against the known quantity of Hamilton.

Furthermore, according to this article, Williams themselves believe it is the car and not the drivers, and even went so far as establishing a taskforce to try and fix the problem. I think they would know if it was just lousy driving.

That's not what the post I was replying to said. I replied to a sentence about how the tracks Williams performed well at were quite mixed. I think that is largely due to the inconsistency in the drivers as well as the car.

I think the poor in the wet thing is definitely the drivers as much as the car. We know Massa is poor in the wet and Bottas was usually beaten by him.

Actually, I think Massa being poor in the wet is little more than an urban legend based on a single race at Silverstone 9 years ago, and Bottas was the driver who qualified his Williams 3rd on the grid at a wet session in 2013. Statistically, there's nothing to back up claims of Massa being poor in the wet; he has a much higher percentage of wet wins than dry, and performed similarly against Alonso in both conditions. Bottas has a lot less data points, but presumably during this season we'll get more chances to assess him against the known quantity of Hamilton.

Furthermore, according to this article, Williams themselves believe it is the car and not the drivers, and even went so far as establishing a taskforce to try and fix the problem. I think they would know if it was just lousy driving.

Really?

I can't think of any exceptional wet weather drives from Massa.

The stat you use is pretty flawed. Any driver with a wet weather win, a long career and not a regular winner will have a higher win percentage in the rain. I wouldn't exactly count Spa 08 as a sign of wet weather excellence either.

We have reference points for Bottas. Massa, who he almost always finished behind in the wet.

Has a team ever come out and said "our drivers just weren't good enough"?

The stat you use is pretty flawed. Any driver with a wet weather win, a long career and not a regular winner will have a higher win percentage in the rain. I wouldn't exactly count Spa 08 as a sign of wet weather excellence either.

We have reference points for Bottas. Massa, who he almost always finished behind in the wet.

Has a team ever come out and said "our drivers just weren't good enough"?

Yeah, the very team we're discussing has when they fired Damon Hill for not being good enough to win the title in their excellent car.

I know the wins comparison is pretty cheap, but it doesn't take long to research, unlike pretty much anything else. I'm nowhere near invested enough in the topic to research every wet race Massa or Bottas have ever been involved in and analyze them, so that's where the conversation is going to have to stay, I'm afraid. As for Massa being Bottas' reference point, it's true that Massa beat him more often than not in the wet. That doesn't mean anything without some evidence that Massa is actually a poor wet weather driver, however.

How did Bottas compare to Maldonado in the wet back in 2013? I've been unable to find a list of rain affected races, and I'm not going to take the time to look through them all to figure out which ones were wet. Out of the ones I can remember for sure (Australia, Brazil, Canada and Belgium for qualifying) he out-qualified Maldonado in 3 of the 4. Were there any actual wet races?

The stat you use is pretty flawed. Any driver with a wet weather win, a long career and not a regular winner will have a higher win percentage in the rain. I wouldn't exactly count Spa 08 as a sign of wet weather excellence either.

We have reference points for Bottas. Massa, who he almost always finished behind in the wet.

Has a team ever come out and said "our drivers just weren't good enough"?

Yeah, the very team we're discussing has when they fired Damon Hill for not being good enough to win the title in their excellent car.

I know the wins comparison is pretty cheap, but it doesn't take long to research, unlike pretty much anything else. I'm nowhere near invested enough in the topic to research every wet race Massa or Bottas have ever been involved in and analyze them, so that's where the conversation is going to have to stay, I'm afraid. As for Massa being Bottas' reference point, it's true that Massa beat him more often than not in the wet. That doesn't mean anything without some evidence that Massa is actually a poor wet weather driver, however.

How did Bottas compare to Maldonado in the wet back in 2013? I've been unable to find a list of rain affected races, and I'm not going to take the time to look through them all to figure out which ones were wet. Out of the ones I can remember for sure (Australia, Brazil, Canada and Belgium for qualifying) he out-qualified Maldonado in 3 of the 4. Were there any actual wet races?

No wet races in 2013 unfortunately. I agree that it would take way to much time to analyse Massa's entire career for wet weather racing. I will stick by the comment though that I can't remember a great wet weather drive from Massa and getting regularly beaten by any team mate in the wet generally means you are not a superb wet weather driver.

I think people underestimate the impact a driver has on a perception of a car.

I think if you swapped the Williams and Red Bull drivers over the teams results would swap round accordingly.

This weekend, I don't think so. But at a normal circuit I do think the RBR is only a tenth or two ahead of the Williams on pure car pace alone - the rest is the drivers.

I think their bang equal on average on car pace. I agree this race Williams is behind Red Bull.

I think the Williams has been a terrible car here for the past few years. I do think this was proved in practice that it is pretty bad. Both Stroll and Massa reporting a huge lack of grip. The Williams just doesn't have enough down force to be very competitive here. It is rubbish at slow speed corners and not having any long straits won't help. IMO, if either of them get points in the race, it will be pretty impressive. That is if there were not a load of retirements to help of course.

Williams do seem to be very mixed at what tracks suit the car well. Even though Silverstone has loads of tight corners, the Williams often seems extremely good there in recent years.

Anyway, about Stroll, I do just think he came into F1 too early. Even if his poor form continues, I don't think he shouldn't be given another chance as he may suddenly turn around and start being more like Verstappen was. People seemed to rate Verstappen's first season highly because of what he did considering his age. Yes that may have been impressive but I don't think the season was actually that impressive. He had some very good races, but some really bad ones. Stroll hasn't yet had a good race, but he hasn't had the chance in 3 of them so we should ignore them really. In the actual race themselves, he hasn't been to blame for a retirement yet. Verstappen cost himself 2 races in 2015, possibly more. Nothing has been proved yet that Stroll can't complete every other race this year. I think he will still have several more poor weekends but he will be learning throughout them.

I think that's as much down to the drivers as much as anything. Same as their poor reputation in the wet.

I'm not so sure about this. The Williams team has admitted that they need to work on their cars performance in the wet several times and their car is still a low down force setup that lacks grip so will be poor in the wet again probably. And I do think that Bottas is good at most circuits. He just has one or 2 weaker ones. I think he admitted Australia is one of his weaker tracks. If he performs really well here in Monaco this year, I think his point-less run of Monaco races will be related to how bad the Williams was at this type of circuit rather than than his ability. It is just a fact that on certain tracks when Bottas and Massa were at Williams, both of them would often be doing very well, or well out of the points. I don't think both of them have the same tracks that they are good or poor at. I still think it is mainly the car that made Bottas and Massa look worse than they were a lot of the time on particular tracks. Tracks that suited the car well were tracks like Sochi and the Mexican Grand Prix and some others too where they suddenly seemed to be very strong. Surely all this has to be more related to the car than the drivers? Teams like Ferrari seem to have a car that was decent everywhere in the past 2 years or so. I think that Williams has a car that is clearly made to be very strong at certain tracks as sometimes Williams beat them and others they were well behind.

I'm pretty sure that the Williams won't be a very easy car to drive compared to many others even if it is very strong at times. I don't think it will be the easiest car for Stroll to get along with instantly. Bottas always said that the biggest problem with his car ever since he'd been at Williams was a lack of grip which I think explains why both drivers at Williams were performing worse at slower tight and twisty tracks.

Well deserved criticism for someone who has shown he has not the talent for F1 and he is there due to money.Maldonado was the same but at least he had more speed and more skills than him.He's the Deletraz of 21st century

Well deserved criticism for someone who has shown he has not the talent for F1 and he is there due to money.Maldonado was the same but at least he had more speed and more skills than him.He's the Deletraz of 21st century

I don't know why people are deciding this all already. He could turn out to be like Verstappen or maybe even better but just develops his skills later on. Unlikely, but we just don't know. It is silly to say he doesn't have the talent for F1 after just 5 races. He's only had the chance to complete 2 of them of which he has achieved. Give him more time!

Just out of curiosity, how much is Stroll paying for the seat at Williams? Has to be alot! He'd want to be paying enough to off-set the loss of prize money as Williams drops down the constructors championship.

In F3 his Father bought him advantages over the competition, he bought the best team in F3 for starters, he had Williams develop parts for his car only, he bought a F3 simulator for him which was kept at the Williams factory for only Stroll to use, this was better than Williams own F1 simulator, plus his teammates were quite generous on the track.

Do you have any proof for this? Because I consider it pure hearsay. F3 is a spec series, and there's very little they could have legally done to give him an advantage.

F3 is not entirely a spec series the teams are allowed to develop their own parts including use of wind tunnels for developing aero parts, regarding Stroll, Williams' involvement came to light when he was disqualified for having an illegally fitting suspension component that had been designed by Williams.

The above seems a very balanced view of Stroll and his junior career and there are some mentions of his father putting additional money into the F3 Car etc... but nothing concrete.

We can only really judge him on facts, and the fact is he is significantly slower than his team mate who at the end of last year looked to be done. Right now he is not showing us that he has what it takes to be in F1, and if his performance continues he will cost Williams 5th in the constructors and with the ever improving Renault, and the (slim) possibility that McLaren might finally get it together they could slip as low as 7th.

The above seems a very balanced view of Stroll and his junior career and there are some mentions of his father putting additional money into the F3 Car etc... but nothing concrete.

We can only really judge him on facts, and the fact is he is significantly slower than his team mate who at the end of last year looked to be done. Right now he is not showing us that he has what it takes to be in F1, and if his performance continues he will cost Williams 5th in the constructors and with the ever improving Renault, and the (slim) possibility that McLaren might finally get it together they could slip as low as 7th.

Well deserved criticism for someone who has shown he has not the talent for F1 and he is there due to money.Maldonado was the same but at least he had more speed and more skills than him.He's the Deletraz of 21st century

I don't know why people are deciding this all already. He could turn out to be like Verstappen or maybe even better but just develops his skills later on. Unlikely, but we just don't know. It is silly to say he doesn't have the talent for F1 after just 5 races. He's only had the chance to complete 2 of them of which he has achieved. Give him more time!

How can he turn out like Verstappen when he is already not like him, that's the whole point of being Verstappen, a driver that can hit the ground running and not take years to get better, that's more in the realms of being another Palmer.