The Beach Boys were definately ahead of The Beatles when it came to vocal harmonies, and innovative chord progressions.

I actually don't agree with this at all I remember reading Dylan and The Byrds were astounded by The Beatles chords progressions early on and were talking about their music from 1963. No one was forming groups after hearing the Beach Boys in 1963/1964.

As for psychedelic rock even before the onset of psychedelic rock started The Beatles were writing proto-hippie songs "The Word" using sitars "Norwegian Wood" and the album cover on Rubber Soul is pretty much a proto psychedelic album cover. I think the unreleased version of take 2 "Norwegian Wood" is certainly psychedelic. Even if they weren't first they certainly took psychedelic rock further than The Byrds or The Yardbirds.

I know that you already know this, but the Beatles were the first rock band that used intended feed back in record ("I Feel Fine"), sitar (at least in a prominent rock record, "Norwegian Wood"), fuzz bass ("Think For Yourself"), tape loops (piano recorded at half-speed and played at double-speed in "In My Life"), backwards sounds (vocals in "Rain"; guitar in "I'm Only Sleeping"), Sgt. Pepper's was the first rock album where the songs blend into each other with no breaks, etc. Maybe someone did those things before the Beatles and we (or I) don't know, but I guess that the Beatles didn't know too.

The Beatles were probably rock great artists in terms of fusing non-rock sources with pop music. Like it or not "Norwegian Wood" were the first rock band to release a song with sitar probably tamboura and tablas on "Love You To". They were probably first to use feedback on a rock song with "I Feel Fine" and "Space Guitar" by Johnny Guitar Watson does not have any sustain feedback. As for fuzz bass I am sure there were others before The Beatles but the lead use of fuzz bass acting like a lead guitar I can't think of any that predates The Beatles.

The point is The Beatles were able to integrate this things before their peers like The Yardbirds or The Byrds. Heck Roger McGuinn took inspiration from George Harrison use of 12 string jangle sound and it became a mainstay of the Byrds sound. I actually go on and on what The Beatles were the first at doing in terms of the rock sound.

The point is The Beatles were able to integrate this things before their peers like The Yardbirds or The Byrds. Heck Roger McGuinn took inspiration from George Harrison use of 12 string jangle sound and it became a mainstay of the Byrds sound. I actually go on and on what The Beatles were the first at doing in terms of the rock sound.

Of course that the Beatles was a huge influence for the Byrds, but the Byrds also influenced the Beatles in a very important way. For instance, Rubber Soul was the Beatles answer to the Byrds' Mr. Tambourine Man. And the Yardbirds experimented more than anyone with guitar in 1965, Jeff Beck invented heavy rock guitar with them; and I find the sound of the Beatles' "Rain" to be influenced by the Yardbirds' "Shapes Of Things".

I actually don't agree with this at all I remember reading Dylan and The Byrds were astounded by The Beatles chords progressions early on and were talking about their music from 1963. No one was forming groups after hearing the Beach Boys in 1963/1964.

As for psychedelic rock even before the onset of psychedelic rock started The Beatles were writing proto-hippie songs "The Word" using sitars "Norwegian Wood" and the album cover on Rubber Soul is pretty much a proto psychedelic album cover. I think the unreleased version of take 2 "Norwegian Wood" is certainly psychedelic. Even if they weren't first they certainly took psychedelic rock further than The Byrds or The Yardbirds.

The Beatles were probably rock great artists in terms of fusing non-rock sources with pop music. Like it or not "Norwegian Wood" were the first rock band to release a song with sitar probably tamboura and tablas on "Love You To". They were probably first to use feedback on a rock song with "I Feel Fine" and "Space Guitar" by Johnny Guitar Watson does not have any sustain feedback. As for fuzz bass I am sure there were others before The Beatles but the lead use of fuzz bass acting like a lead guitar I can't think of any that predates The Beatles.

The point is The Beatles were able to integrate this things before their peers like The Yardbirds or The Byrds. Heck Roger McGuinn took inspiration from George Harrison use of 12 string jangle sound and it became a mainstay of the Byrds sound. I actually go on and on what The Beatles were the first at doing in terms of the rock sound.

Early versions of The Yardbirds' 'Heart Full of Soul' (6/65) had a sitar part, and The Kinks' 'See My Friends' (7/65) has a distinct feel which replicates an Indian-style drone.The era was one where at any one time a group or artist would forge ahead (sometimes even individuals within the same group - Graham Nash?). The Beatles did it more than most, but were not always the first to do something.

Early versions of The Yardbirds' 'Heart Full of Soul' (6/65) had a sitar part, and The Kinks' 'See My Friends' (7/65) has a distinct feel which replicates an Indian-style drone.The era was one where at any one time a group or artist would forge ahead (sometimes even individuals within the same group - Graham Nash?). The Beatles did it more than most, but were not always the first to do something.

The point is The Beatles were the first rock band to record and release a song that features a sitar. I mean The Beatles were experimenting with fuzz guitar on "She Loves You" but they never released it which would have made them actually ahead of The Rolling Stones and The Yardbirds. The Beatles didn't release the first take of IMO psychedelic "Norwegian Wood" until Anthology and there is a no doubt psychedelic take of "Norwegian Wood" that hasn't been released.

Of course that the Beatles was a huge influence for the Byrds, but the Byrds also influenced the Beatles in a very important way. For instance, Rubber Soul was the Beatles answer to the Byrds' Mr. Tambourine Man. And the Yardbirds experimented more than anyone with guitar in 1965, Jeff Beck invented heavy rock guitar with them; and I find the sound of the Beatles' "Rain" to be influenced by the Yardbirds' "Shapes Of Things".

I never viewed "Rain" as related by the Yardbirds. A better cousin of "Rain" is their own "Ticket To Ride" with it slow droning ringing guitars and off kilter drumming. Doesn't "Ticket To Ride" actually pre-date both "See My Friends" or "Heart Full of Soul"?

The guitar drone on "Rain" is certainly derived from Indian music and that unusual backward vocal fade-out in which both are absent on "Shapes of Things". I love Jeff Beck but he certainly didn't invent heavy metal guitar. We need to go around 1968/1969 for that.

Nothing against The Byrds either but without The Beatles influencing them to form in the first place because they thought folk with rock music would work there would have been no Byrds. I know George Harrison "I Needed Someone" was a Byrds influenced track but I think Rubber Soul is more influenced by Dylan and pot.

You have to remember The Beatles were already going the path of both folk rock and country rock on Beatles for Sale and 12 string jangle pop on both "A Hard Day's Night" and Beatles for Sale before The Byrds Mr. Tambourine Man.

I saw Jeff Beck's There and Back Tour at the Berkeley Greek Theater and he had his electric sitar and his Fender Strat. He played them both for the same song switching back and forth throughout the song! Amazing stuff !

« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 12:45:12 PM by Dcazz »

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It's true that The Beatles were more influencial than The Beach Boys. Partially because they were more popular, obviously. But not just because of that. I think it's also because The Beach Boys were just much harder to imitate. Any competent four piece guitar band should be able to play a decent version of any of the early Beatles songs. But not a whole lot of bands will be able to play a good cover of 'I Get Around', 'In My Room' or 'Surfer Girl', because you'll need to have four good singers with different vocal ranges.

Same goes for the later studio material. If you've got some decent songwriting skills and the budget to hire an orchestra, it shouldn't be too hard to record something that reminds of the 'Sgt. Pepper' album. But when was the last time you've heard a song by anyone else than The Beach Boys that sounded like it could've been a 'Pet Sounds' outtake?

Few band in pop music history inspired more people to start a band than the Sex Pistols did. And not because they were so great, but because a whole lot of people thought, "Wait, I can do that...".

I never viewed "Rain" as related by the Yardbirds. A better cousin of "Rain" is their own "Ticket To Ride" with it slow droning ringing guitars and off kilter drumming. Doesn't "Ticket To Ride" actually pre-date both "See My Friends" or "Heart Full of Soul"?

This discussion would be endless because we'll always find an earlier root of anything. The point that I stated here more than two years ago and I still maintain is that "Shapes Of Things" and "Eight Miles High" were the first straight psychedelic songs, both lyrics and music, and of course that previous influences existed, like everything. The Beatles did the next step with "Tomorrow Never Knows", that was certainly the definitive psychedelic song.

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The guitar drone on "Rain" is certainly derived from Indian music and that unusual backward vocal fade-out in which both are absent on "Shapes of Things". I love Jeff Beck but he certainly didn't invent heavy metal guitar. We need to go around 1968/1969 for that.

I can hear Indian music elements in "Shapes Of Things" as well, if not as prominent as in "Rain". And I didn't talk about heavy metal guitar, just heavy rock guitar. The instrument had never been used like that before, just listen to songs like "You're A Better Man Than I", "Evil Hearted You" or "The Train Kept A-Rollin'". And if we talk about proto-psychedelia, "Still I'm Sad" was released as a B-side in October 1965, when the Beatles started to record Rubber Soul. You can hear eastern influences there too.

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Nothing against The Byrds either but without The Beatles influencing them to form in the first place because they thought folk with rock music would work there would have been no Byrds. I know George Harrison "I Needed Someone" was a Byrds influenced track but I think Rubber Soul is more influenced by Dylan and pot.

You don't need to convince me that the Beatles were a much more important influence for the Byrds than the Byrds for the Beatles, because I totally agree with that, of course. And you don't need to make me see that the Beatles were the most important group in rock history, because I believe that too. But you shouldn't underestimate the important contributions of other bands like the Byrds or the Yardbirds; admiting that they also were a big influence for the Beatles doesn't mean putting the Fab Four down, is just talking about this amazing interaction during the 60's.

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You have to remember The Beatles were already going the path of both folk rock and country rock on Beatles for Sale and 12 string jangle pop on both "A Hard Day's Night" and Beatles for Sale before The Byrds Mr. Tambourine Man.

Yes, but the Byrds did the next step with Mr. Tambourine Man, then the Beatles went further with Rubber Soul, then the Beach Boys answered with Pet Sounds, then we had Sgt. Pepper's, etc.

Have you really listened to the Byrds' Mr. Tambourine Man? It really defined Folk Rock as a genre, if we shouldn't say that they invented it (that would be hard to tell). "If I Needed Someone" is very similar to "The Bells Of Rhymney" (initial riff and harmony vocals), but that was not the unique influence, "Norwegian Wood" is almost "I Knew I'd Want You" with added sitar, "Drive My Car" is a soft rocker with a consecutive guitar-bass-drums intro just like in "It's No Use", the anti-love theme of "You Won't See Me" and "I'm Looking Though You" was already done in "I'll Feel A Whole Lot Better" (Dylan had done that but not in a rock-pop context), etc.

See, Rubber Soul is my very favorite album of all time, but that's exactly why I go back and admire the previous influential work of the Byrds. Don't be afraid of recognizing other bands merits.

By the way, welcome to the forum and thank you for reviving this thread.

It's true that The Beatles were more influencial than The Beach Boys. Partially because they were more popular, obviously. But not just because of that. I think it's also because The Beach Boys were just much harder to imitate. Any competent four piece guitar band should be able to play a decent version of any of the early Beatles songs. But not a whole lot of bands will be able to play a good cover of 'I Get Around', 'In My Room' or 'Surfer Girl', because you'll need to have four good singers with different vocal ranges.

Same goes for the later studio material. If you've got some decent songwriting skills and the budget to hire an orchestra, it shouldn't be too hard to record something that reminds of the 'Sgt. Pepper' album. But when was the last time you've heard a song by anyone else than The Beach Boys that sounded like it could've been a 'Pet Sounds' outtake?

Few band in pop music history inspired more people to start a band than the Sex Pistols did. And not because they were so great, but because a whole lot of people thought, "Wait, I can do that...".

I think The Beatles were more influential than The Beach Boys because they were more innovative and musically more versatile. You have modern electronic artists influenced by tracks like "Tomorrow Never Knows" which is basically a sampled/breakbeat song and "Baby You're A Rich Man", hard rockers with "Helter Skelter, and the proto doom metal of "I Want You She's So Heavy", virtually every power pop band was influenced by The Beatles and probably the same with folk rock and progressive rock band also.

While The Yardbirds may have released an Indian influenced song before The Beatles a song like "Love You To" was certainly a world music type of song that none of their peers were doing at the time of it's release.