I've seen some posts lately about spot burning and frankly I don't know what some guys are thinking. The majority of anglers don't fish for wild trout, most won't go near a remote stream in the summer if they've ever seen what they look like when there's been no rain.

I fish all over the place and seldom run into another angler. Even early in the season I don't see many anglers, the lone exception is opening weekend.

So where is the spot burning? The PAradise? LL? Fishing Creek? I don't think so. On limestone streams surveys show there is very little mortality no matter how much pressure there is on brown trout. With brookies it's only slightly higher.

On freestone streams it's higher but the most threatened streams are the streams that suffer during droughts and floods. Far more fish succumb to natural events than fishing. Get over it, spot burnign is next to non-existent.

It's really about increased foot traffic on streams that are usually without it in many cases.

For example, the spot we fished would see a marked increase in traffic if it were publicized more, to both the detriment of anglers that enjoy fishing it in relative solitude (which I think is critical to doing well there)... as well as the landowners. Add in a lack of parking that won't annoy the landowners, and you've got reason to want something kept on the relative down-low.

There's simply no reason to post about places like that, given their proximity to large populations, and a relative lack of other decent opportunities in the area. PMs or in person? No big deal. It doesn't need to be broadcast IMO. It's well protected by various conservation orgs as well, so it's not like the publicity would bring any good.

Yes Chaz, its about rods onthe water....for instance, if say a certain local wants to go fishin and he shows up at his favortie crik and there is a car at the first pull off, so he drives down to the next and there is another and goes to the next and finally there is no one so he hikes in and starts fishing only to find someone walking downstream toward him.

Spot burning is not about mortality so much as the selfishness of local people who don't want anyone else to fish their streams.

Look at the Lititz Run, Sal spotburned that three years ago with his pictures of big fish and it took til now for the landowners to get the sh7ts of the bait guys creeling the family pets they feed with pellets. Now the landowners are going to make it FFO.....because the Flyfishers C&R and respect the resource....Ironic isn't it. The Flyfishers popularized by posting pictures of huge trout.....so maybe the flyfishers should be banned and let the bait guys fishit....cuz they don't spotburn they burn spots.

On the other hand, Spot burning where creeling is involved could cause cropping of legal sized fish on a small fragile brook trout stream. But likly its the locals doing that too.....not the local selfish folks with their paranoia toward spotburning but the locals who have always cropped off the bigger fish year after year.

So why is it that YOU always seem to alude to these fragile limestone brook trout streams with fish measured in pounds but claim they are too fragile to mention? You know we could change the name from spotburning to giving away selfish secrets......

Posted on: 2010/6/17 23:03

_________________Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?

As Maurice pointed out Chaz your the one with claims to brookie streams in SEPA, several pound brookies across the state yet you feel spot burning isn't an issue. Then post some stream names for once would ya!

Posted on: 2010/6/17 23:29

_________________
Hot and Dangerous if your one of us then roll with us.............

Look at the Lititz Run, Sal spotburned that three years ago with his pictures of big fish and it took til now for the landowners to get the sh7ts of the bait guys creeling the family pets they feed with pellets. Now the landowners are going to make it FFO.....because the Flyfishers C&R and respect the resource....Ironic isn't it. The Flyfishers popularized by posting pictures of huge trout.....so maybe the flyfishers should be banned and let the bait guys fishit....cuz they don't spotburn they burn spots.

Maurice your way off base and traveling outside your local knowledge area. Poaching has been a problem on Lititz Run since about 1996. There has been around 15 or more local newspaper articles on the project and the C&R area (one included a guy holding a 26 inch brown trout), hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on fixing the stream, grass root partnerships from all over working on the stream and tons and tons of volunteers. The stream is on the national showcase of watersheds. But I spot burned it? You give this forum way to much credit and power.

Moreover, if its about rods on the water, its funny that the parking area on Lititz only can fit about 3 cars and I never have a problem parking as of yet.

Also as I posted really not that long ago, most the bigger fish are gone due to a bad flood not too long ago and the fact they mostly STOPPED feeding the fish. Macro life on Lititz Run is really starting to boost. Hatches are returning, cress bugs and scuds are abundant. The 100 percent biological kill is in the past. It is now survival of the fittest and the bigger fish must forage or die. A lot are dying because they just dont know how to feed naturally. Most the fish being poached are the small ones stocked each year for the fly on the run tournament (which has been going on for 3 years). The tournament is highly published in this area. Its no secret and is more likely increasing the poaching more than my posting. Some large fish still remain, including a brown over 30+ inches long. Good luck catching him....hes far from a fool. I actually witnessed that fish try to eat a bird a few weeks ago. Not as many people fish that stream as you think and the ones that dont follow the rules sure didnt show up there because of me.

Like me, dont like me, agree with me or not........Lititz poaching has been going on for over a decade and far before I ever posted about the stream. You may want to blame me......but your just plain wrong and people that frequent the stream know it.

Not sure what started this thread -- but, I think JayL has said things that I believe. Plus, spot burning can cause loss of access. A few years back, a landowner told me that if the name of the creek where he owned land on both sides of the stream had its name put in print again, he would post. Well, it did, and he did. Even k/t icon Chuck Meck acknowledges the detrimental results of k/t in his book Memory Rising. I'm done, or I'll get myself in trouble on this topic -- yet again.

For every one stream that gets posted because of pressure allegedly caused by internet or print exposure, there are three dozen or more that do not get posted but are shared with other anglers. I like the tradeoff, but, like the rest of you, only when my secret stream isn't mentioned in the mix.

Posted on: 2010/6/18 10:27

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"If you see the Buddha in the road, please slow down and see if she is OK." OK?

This is the third "spot burning" post started within the last day or two. I copied my post on one of the others.

Jack, I would be interested in how you respond to the last paragraph.

"My" spot, "your" spot. Huh? You may KNOW the spot, but it's not "YOURS." How about the landowner, the guy that owns it and lives there. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to landowners along a stream who have no problem allowing a few fisherman on their property. But when the place actually becomes a destination spot, and cars are parked all along the property with knocks on the door by fishermen asking permission at all times of day. I know of more than a few places on private property that the landowners have closed because of this.

If the stream is on publicly owned land, and you just have to tell everyone how great Jack's Run in Wideopen Park fishes, and how many big fish you catch there, than go ahead I guess. But if Jack's Run runs through Jack's Property, and he lives there, have a little respect for him, his family and his property and don't advertise and take advantage of his generosity.

I don't own land on the trout stream, but I do own some nice hunting land, and I know about what I speak.

I'll add this. If you fish on privately owned land, you are the guest of the landowner. Before you post the location, go up to the landowner and ask if it would be okay to post the location of their property on the Internet, and see what they say.

If I am on the land by special permission, I would never post the location. I have no right to extend the invitation of the landowner. Then again, if I am on the land because of a general public invitation, then I assume, rightly I believe, that the landowner means his or her invitation to be extended to any angler who wishes to enjoy the resource. In that latter case, I am at liberty to disclose the location and the fact that a general invitation exists.

Posted on: 2010/6/18 11:11

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"If you see the Buddha in the road, please slow down and see if she is OK." OK?

JackM wrote:If I am on the land by special permission, I would never post the location. I have no right to extend the invitation of the landowner. Then again, if I am on the land because of a general public invitation, then I assume, rightly I believe, that the landowner means his or her invitation to be extended to any angler who wishes to enjoy the resource. In that latter case, I am at liberty to disclose the location and the fact that a general invitation exists.

Of course you're at liberty. Nobody's refuting that.

But is it ethical? Does it makes you inconsiderate to post about the location?

I think its a stupid argument that could be attached to so many things we do every day...a back way to work with less traffic that eventually get crowded too, a good restaurant that it used to be easy to get into but now you have to wait a few minutes, a bar that used to be fun but is now so packed its work to get a beer...

The thing is that there are more fly fishermen as well. Heck, according to license sales there are less fishermen overall. Can't go anywhere without seeing some fool slapping a bright orange or green line on the water.

With the internet there are no secrets. You like it when it reveals something unknown that is unjust. (think politicians) But you hate it when it puts a few more fishermen on your favorite stream. Its got an upside and a down side. You have to deal with both.

JackM wrote:If I am on the land by special permission, I would never post the location. I have no right to extend the invitation of the landowner. Then again, if I am on the land because of a general public invitation, then I assume, rightly I believe, that the landowner means his or her invitation to be extended to any angler who wishes to enjoy the resource. In that latter case, I am at liberty to disclose the location and the fact that a general invitation exists.

When does private land have "a general public invitation? You are a guest of the landowner when you park/fish on private land, and to me, a spot that not posted is not a general public invitation, it's a privilege granted by the landowner that can be revoked at any time if it becomes a PITA. I would expect that nearly everyone I know on this site to be respectful of private property, but there are literally thousands of lurkers that I have no idea about.

As I stated, as a landowner (hunting land), I really don't mind a few guys parking and using my land. But when having people on my land is the rule, rather than an exception, and people are knocking at your door all the time to ask permission; it becomes a burden. I've been turned away from spots I've fished for a long time because the landowner just didn't want to be bothered anymore.

LOL.....the days right before deer season is like Halloween for me in my cabin with all the knocks on the door. A real PITA.

Like I said, if you must, post about areas with public access, but I would never post anything about streams running through private land, just out of courtesy for the landowner.

I say to whom? Other anglers that fish that stream? What if they found it through a website are they not being inconsiderate to me by being there?

The entire argument is ridiculous. What if I told someone via PM. Am i being inconsiderate then, to send another angler to a stream? What if I answered 30 PM's on the subject?

Is it inconsiderate to post about Spring Creek all the time? What about inviting people (any and everyone) to the jam? Is that inconsiderate to the anglers that were going to fish Penns during that time?

What about the PFBC ( the ultimate spot burners)? Are they not inconsiderate to put out lists naming every stream in the state with trout (stocked and wild)?

Or is it the other way around.....

Is it inconsiderate to keep good fishing to yourself?

in·con·sid·er·ate audio (nkn-sdr-t) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

1. Thoughtless of others; displaying a lack of consideration. 2. Not well considered or carefully thought out; ill-advised.

Thoughtless to others......well it takes a lot more thought, to want to share joy with people and put a post out there, than keep your mouth shut.

Either way the argument anymore is stupid. I started one thread to say, "hey look the comments about stream X (lord knows I dont want to name it) were way overstated and posting had no effect on the wild fish." And this is what happens. Interesting enough, no one seemed pleased that the fish were ok.

What about the PFBC ( the ultimate spot burners)? Are they not inconsiderate to put out lists naming every stream in the state with trout (stocked and wild)?

If the PFBC gave out 1/10 the info you can find on many of the "spot burns" we see here, I'd consider it a spot burn. They don't do much more than say "hey, in the 6 miles of stream between these two points we put trout in."

I think everyone on this site who's fished our waters for more than a decade and a half will agree that pressure has increased 10 fold on many of the streams. I also think that many of those people could easily find some correlations between increased availablity of "easy" information (like the internet) and increased angler pressure on waters that are publicized on the internet. Yeah, book have done it for decades and magazines moreso in the last couple of decades, but way more people utilize the free internet versus dropping a few bucks on a book and actually reading more than a line or two to get the same info.

Ultimately, the ones that should really be angry are the "Charlie Mecks" and "Dave Wolfes" of the world whose have been made almost obsolete by a bunch of "amatures" tying from their homes. Their books use to be the bible for many of us - I wore out a copy of Meck's book when it came out. I wonder how many are sold these days to people who aren't trying to replace their falling apart, water stained copies.