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Cutman: I mostly agree with your sentiments about the next Mac Pro. Even if hardware-wise it's a total winner, the cost compared to a good Threadripper system will be pure pain. I do think they'll have a base model under the iMac Pro cost (much of which is derived from the 5K screen and VEGA GPU) but it won't matter as this next update I plan to update my screen as well. Time for the 7+ year old Eizo to take a dirt nap.

Szalam: I know the old multi-threading in AE was a kludge but my understanding from all their blogs posts and comments over the last few years was, they removed the kludge from CC 2014 with the intent of making some big under-the-hood changes that could not be accomplished in just one or two cycles, and in the meantime would randomly add some GPU-acclerated filters and features — which they've done as you point out. But I believe the overarching strategy was to properly remake the multi-threading so that real-time previewing and other stuff people want would be possible without heavy reliance on cache disks etc. That said I'm not on their beta program and they don't talk much these days so I have no idea what they're planning next.

Given that the kludge was removed in CC2014 and we're coming up on CC2018 my operating assumption is that there's a decent chance we will finally have a fully rebuilt "engine" under the hood this release. I think that's what they've been working towards but I could be off my rocker. But yeah I know some of their features use AMD cards. Similar to Photoshop and other apps it's a "one off / here and there" approach. When I say "AMD friendly" I mean the bulk of the filters / effects / etc real-time previewing with the use of said cards — either through OpenCL, GL, or whatever else they're cooking. :)

I know some of their features use AMD cards. Similar to Photoshop and other apps it's a "one off / here and there" approach. When I say "AMD friendly" I mean the bulk of the filters / effects / etc real-time previewing with the use of said cards — either through OpenCL, GL, or whatever else they're cooking. :)

Otherwise Nvidia will be the logical choice, threadripper or not.

The vast majority of their effects/filters don't use any card at all! AE still uses the GPU for very little. The good news is that all the native effects that are GPU accelerated work on both NVIDIA and AMD cards. (Except for the ray-traced renderer, but that's considered obsolete.)

Now, I'm not suggesting that you should get an AMD card. I would still want CUDA if I were you. I was just pointing out that the AE team has done a pretty good job lately of being GPU-brand-agnostic.

11 hours ago, Zmotive said:

...Given that the kludge was removed in CC2014 and we're coming up on CC2018 my operating assumption is that there's a decent chance we will finally have a fully rebuilt "engine" under the hood this release....

Pardon me, but I must make a correction: the "kludge" was still present in CC 2014. It was removed in CC 2015. So adjust your assumptions forward a year. :)

Also, keep in mind that the buggy-ness of CC 2015 seemed to put a damper on development as they went into bug-smashing mode for a few releases. So I'd adjust expectations forward another year or two for that!

I'm in quite a few forums, subreddits, and the MDA Slack. What I've heard from the AE team in those places does not seem to indicate the next release will have any big change to the renderer.

When will the next release be announced so all of us can know for sure? Well, Adobe didn't announce anything at SIGGRAPH (but they did present a pretty cool tech paper: https://www.fxguide.com/featured/adobe-technical-paper-genius/). Last year, they announced updates to the video apps at IBC. So, if they do the same this year, the announcement is about a month away. If not, maybe they'll announce at Adobe MAX. If not at MAX, who knows?

In fairness to the AE team, I should point out that some of the newer features they've put out are multithreaded (like, for example, the Camera Shake Deblur), so it's not like they're not working on stuff.

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The vast majority of their effects/filters don't use any card at all! AE still uses the GPU for very little....

Pardon me, but I must make a correction: the "kludge" was still present in CC 2014. It was removed in CC 2015. So adjust your assumptions forward a year. :)

Also, keep in mind that the buggy-ness of CC 2015 seemed to put a damper on development as they went into bug-smashing mode for a few releases...

To the first point, that's what I was driving at. It's not a GPU-friendly app right now. Though I get most of the stuff this IS in there, works with AMD or Nvidia (they've even got a couple Metal-accelerated items in there I believe).

To the second point you're right. Sorry. 2014 was the last time it had the kludge.

To the third point that sounds a lot like an excuse for lack of innovation in some areas. They shouldn't need multiple releases for "bug smashing mode", but I do understand that for any type of overhaul to the previewing engine and threading capabilities *would* take multiple releases. So yeah I guess adjust my expectations forward.

I don't have any claim that big things are coming this year, just saying there's a reasonable chance there might be given the time that has past, and that if it is a more substantial performance release, it's worth paying attention to whether any of it is AMD-focused as part of one's hardware buying equation for the next year.

...(they've even got a couple Metal-accelerated items in there I believe)...

You believe correctly - except that it's not a couple. All of the GPU-accelerated effects in AE on Mac OS use Metal or OpenCL (your choice). Last time I checked, the OpenCL worked faster, but they said they're working on improving Metal performance.

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Metal 2 should bring good things. I think it filled in some of the shader gaps and other stuff that kept it from being a full-fledged kit. Not that AE is using shaders much. Just glad to see Adobe chose to be an early adopter. I had my doubts given how Apple jumps from API to API in this arena. That said I wish they'd open up their beta program a little more. From what I can tell it's by far the most selective / smallest beta group. Been testing Adobe's stuff for well over 10 years, alphas and betas but that's a tough nut to crack. I think you pretty much need to be someone well connected or well known in the industry and it's a young man's industry (unfortunately for me). : )

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Metal 2 should bring good things. I think it filled in some of the shader gaps and other stuff that kept it from being a full-fledged kit. Not that AE is using shaders much. Just glad to see Adobe chose to be an early adopter. I had my doubts given how Apple jumps from API to API in this arena. That said I wish they'd open up their beta program a little more. From what I can tell it's by far the most selective / smallest beta group. Been testing Adobe's stuff for well over 10 years, alphas and betas but that's a tough nut to crack. I think you pretty much need to be someone well connected or well known in the industry and it's a young man's industry (unfortunately for me). : )

With a bit of luck Apple will keep interested in Metal and it will be _the_ APIs developers have to use from this point forward. I wonder if MAXON have started plans to adopt Metal, Vulkan or DX12 low level APIs for future C4Ds as the world moves slowly away from OpenGL? The core rewrite would be the right time for getting plans in order I would think.

I've always been amazed that AE was adopted as the de facto standard as it's just a horrid experience to use and feels dated when compared Apple's Motion which smokes it's for realtime performance. I've done many a job in Motion that I simply could not have done in AE.

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Yep it would be nice to have Metal as a long-standing widely adopted standard on Mac going forward.

As to any API becoming *the* standard or being adopted by specific apps, a lot depends on timing. In theory MAXON's core re-write is the "right time" but in practice the core of any app comprises of many "modules" for lack of a better word, some of which would need to be specifically written with Metal in mind some wouldn't. So it would depend on when MAXON was working on those things and if Metal was available and sufficiently robust for their purposes at that particular time.

As for Motion I think their UI concept has always been better than AEs but the depth and strength of the available effects was not as good (at least not when I tried it which I think was version 1.5 or something). As with a lot of Apple software, I see Motion as a big missed opportunity. AFAIK it's not actively developed any longer / just patched and given minor updates from time to time?

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Yep it would be nice to have Metal as a long-standing widely adopted standard on Mac going forward.

As to any API becoming *the* standard or being adopted by specific apps, a lot depends on timing. In theory MAXON's core re-write is the "right time" but in practice the core of any app comprises of many "modules" for lack of a better word, some of which would need to be specifically written with Metal in mind some wouldn't. So it would depend on when MAXON was working on those things and if Metal was available and sufficiently robust for their purposes at that particular time.

As for Motion I think their UI concept has always been better than AEs but the depth and strength of the available effects was not as good (at least not when I tried it which I think was version 1.5 or something). As with a lot of Apple software, I see Motion as a big missed opportunity. AFAIK it's not actively developed any longer / just patched and given minor updates from time to time?

Motion is the effects engine that underpins FCPX so it's not a missed opportunity more a repurposed opportunity. Motion's main purpose now is to custom build effects, transitions and templates for FCPX so the users can setup highly tailored content for clients which are installed in FCPX's effects browser. It makes keeping client Titles and Lower Thirds all organised and updated a breeze.

I had to produce well over a hundred VJ loops based on a record label's album art for a live world tour launch, I was given 3 days to do it. The album covers were black and white OpArt and it was my job to recreate them as animations, Motion's realtime playback performance, behavioural animation and lightening fast exports allowed me to blitz this job and produce some really nice content that looked great being projected. I hate being dumped hospital passes like this with no time to think but I got the job done to my satisfaction. I didn't get much thanks though, c'est la vie...

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Interesting. I didn't know Apple had at some put decided to put Motion "under the hood" of FCPX. Shows you how long it's been since i looked at it.

Glad people are still getting some mileage out of the tech. I figured it had become another Shake. Although I think maybe they incorporated some of that too (way back).

I guess the Motion Devs are busily updating their code to Metal 2, from Metal and previously OpenCL... Change is great, right?

Motion is in the Appstore for the bargain price of about £50, it has a great keyer and the behavioural animation system can really allow some complex generative graphics to be developed incredibly quickly. Even if you're an AE user for the money Motion is an excellent helper App that adds to the toolbox of tricks.

There was an recent Apple patent published that indicates Apple have developed their own planar tracker that can cope very well with obscuring objects so the Motion development continues. The Pro Apps team have hired Wes Plate of Automatic Duck workflow and exchange plugin developers and Tim Dashwood a VR Tools developer so the combined FCPX/Motion eco system looks strong for the immediate future.