I don't think you've exhausted it...or you'd be dead. I can say this, as another suicide survivor. Perhaps, someone else wouldnt feel bold enough to say it? As many pills as I took, I should be dead, but I'm not. Neither are you....

painBody wrote:Why is wallowing a bad thing ? / Can you learn from your pain and still wallow in it at the same time ?

For me, wallowing in suffering is an escape from what's really going on, a refusal to see and deal with the big picture.

Surrendering to pain is, for me, very different than wallowing in it. How bout for you?

EDIT: Everything I wrote below the dashed line is a bit off-topic. So, let me address the main point first.

I disagree that wallowing is an escape. Simply allowing yourself to feel the pain is not an escape, according to me. In other words, if the pain is so severe that it incapacitates you (emotionally/psychologically), I don't see that as wallowing ... for the same reason that sitting in a wheelchair after being paralyzed is not wallowing ... it is a natural consequence/function of some event + your level of adaptability (physical, emotional, or otherwise). If the pain is too much and you just can't cope, that doesn't mean you're wallowing.

Wallowing, like "insecurity" (one of my faves) is just a bullshit label/judgment imposed upon the sincere who are honest about what is going on, by those who don't have the guts to admit the same. And, sometimes both of those exist within the same person. We are too damn hard on ourselves and on each other !

I think that one of the worst afflictions/pandemics the human race has had to endure, and this is particularly true in recent/modern times, is our assumption that because we are technologically advanced "modern" superhumans, we must have the ability to "fix" whatever goes wrong in our lives. No !

We sent men to the moon, we blew up a city with the press of a button, but that doesn't mean we can do it all, and the problem is that we think we do. Ovarian cancer ? No problem, let's come up with a drug for that. People wanna find sex partners on airplanes ? No problem, let's write an app for that. We're superhuman, right ? Know-it-all's ?

Sometimes, the shit is just too much to bear ! Why can't we just fucking admit it ?!!! And, that is not going to change no matter how many drugs or machines or apps we invent, or which galaxy we're able to send people to. And, thank God for that ! Because, if that changes, this species will have become unofficially extinct.

-------------------------------------

Interesting.

For me, it is all a big cocktail - wallowing, learning, surrendering, etc - states that are not distinguishable from one another for the simple reason I mentioned earlier. (That is to say, I know it is that way for everyone - we cannot just wallow or just learn or just surrender. We are constantly stuck somewhere between those 3 states. But, most fail to see it.)

In any field where one works with machines, machine behavior becomes clearly distinguishable from human behavior in that, while machines can only work with discrete states, humans are entirely different - we can only work with continuums/spectrums. Ironically, I learned a lot about human behavior while working with machines. It is just not possible for us to be only wallowing one day, then only learning from pain the next We might express it that way for clarity to the target audience, but the way we express/describe it (i.e. in terms of discrete states) is not the way we actually experience it.

Now, for the sake of "practical purposes" (as ET puts it), we need to communicate in terms of discrete states. On a poll, you can only put down that you are either a Republican or Democrat, Hindu, Muslim, whatever. It is far harder to express your true identity/opinion, because it lies on a continuum; it's not a discrete data point. Of course, we need to express ourselves this way; otherwise, chaos would quickly ensue. But, let's not mistake the description of an experience for the experience itself.

Of course, this means I'm also saying that, if anyone thinks that, once Eckhart (or anyone else) reached his state of "enlightenment", he has never, for a second, lost his presence and regressed into unconsciousness, they're quite gullible, in my opinion. I've met quite a few people who seem to believe that spiritual teachers are like computer servers - dwelling eternally in presence, producing a rhythmic hum like that of the AC current that powers machines No, that doesn't fool me. And, I don't have to be a psychologist to know why. I just pay attention to what happens and make up my own mind about it.

Put another way, in a sense, we are almost always "ambivalent".

Sorry for the tangential distraction, but, getting back on point, why is it bad to wallow in unhappiness, when it is perfectly acceptable to wallow in joy or happiness or "presence" or any other state ? (This was the subject of another recent thread of mine) If a person is wallowing in pain, obviously that must necessarily be a valid part of the human experience (because the person wallowing is human). So, how can it be invalid ? Why is wallowing in pain invalidated ? Why are the unhappy shunned ? Why is a perfectly normal part of the human experience treated like a malicious virus ?

Because the majority like to pretend that they never experience that part of the human experience. So, the few that are sincere and admit that they do, are automatically hurled outside the social perimeter.

Whenever someone tells me, "You're feeling sorry for yourself.", I instinctively respond with, "So fucking what ? If I don't, who will ? You ?"

painBody wrote:That I am forced to be here against my will, like I'm in prison.

If a person wants out, he/she should be given it, no questions asked .. at least for a lump sum.

Even if that were true, what about that makes you unhappy? There are lots of people that are here like you, and for that matter even in actual prison, yet they are not necessarily unhappy about it. They find ways to get by without so much suffering. What about it makes you unhappy? (sips coffee.)

WW

Coz I don't believe in "getting by".

Since you brought up prison ... remember the line from Shawshank Redemption ? "Get busy living, or get busy dying." That's what I believe in.

I've tried both those options. And, I'm unhappy that this world makes the 2nd option much too difficult, when the 1st option has been exhausted.

It seems you are avoiding the question. I asked what makes you unhappy and you give me you "don't believe in getting by". What has that to do with unhappyness? What are you really unhappy about? More coffee?

Webwanderer wrote:It seems you are avoiding the question. I asked what makes you unhappy and you give me you "don't believe in getting by". What has that to do with unhappyness? What are you really unhappy about? More coffee?

...This has reminded me of something that happened to me last year. I went to a diner alone for lunch and while I waited for my food a much older man stopped at my table while I was reading something on my phone.

He said, you're just like the rest of them...what a shame. I said, excuse me? He said, you have your nose in that phone and don't even notice your surroundings. I said, I've noticed my surroundings. There's nothing going on, so Im reading on my phone. Me reading on my phone is like you reading the newspaper, right? He said, whatever ...and walked away.

Maybe he has felt this disconnect also... He probably hates cell phones, ect, but why he'd lashed out at me, when I was by myself? That I don't get, since there wasn't anyone for me to interact with....

> pB: ... why is it bad to wallow in unhappiness, when it is perfectly acceptable to wallow in joy or happiness or "presence" or any other state ?

As I see it wallowing in ANY state invites suffering, because wallowing is a *grasping* at something: unhappiness, joy, whatever. To minimize suffering, minimize grasping/aversion.

Now of course you could say: "Why shouldn't I suffer? Suffering is, after all, a huge and beautiful part of the human condition." If that's how you feel, then yes, by all means: wallow, grasp, cocoon, avert, do whatever you want to do, in that moment, without regard to what might be "spiritually correct." I did this for quite a while, still do it from time to time: Take the path of least resistance, think/do whatever my body-mind wants me to do. Afaic there's a lot to be said for living this way ... though it can take a toll on people whose lives intersect with yours.

Webwanderer wrote:It seems you are avoiding the question. I asked what makes you unhappy and you give me you "don't believe in getting by". What has that to do with unhappyness? What are you really unhappy about? More coffee?

Let's make a goal. Let's be as accurate as we can and not resort so much to broad brush accusations.

"The world has become... so inhuman." "Everyone's plugged in... arrogant..." (etc) You just said everyone in the world has become inhuman, and everyone in the world is obsessed, stupid and arrogant.

First that can't possible be true of 'everyone'. Are you including me, yourself, the people on this forum, little children, everyone???

Second, and more importantly, why does that make you unhappy? You're pointing to actions of people you don't even know, nor could you possibly understand their motivation, and saying it makes you unhappy. Why is that? What is some stranger on a trains' connection to you? And by including virtually everyone in your statement of frustration, are you limiting your possibilities to find oasis' of relationships?

All I can do is provoke.I become spiteful.

Are you honestly saying 'all you can do'? You go to everyone you see and become spiteful and provoke them? You said earlier that 'everyone' is doing something you don't like. Is this really true? What is really true?

Webwanderer wrote:It seems you are avoiding the question. I asked what makes you unhappy and you give me you "don't believe in getting by". What has that to do with unhappyness? What are you really unhappy about? More coffee?

Let's make a goal. Let's be as accurate as we can and not resort so much to broad brush accusations.

"The world has become... so inhuman." "Everyone's plugged in... arrogant..." (etc) You just said everyone in the world has become inhuman, and everyone in the world is obsessed, stupid and arrogant.

First that can't possible be true of 'everyone'. Are you including me, yourself, the people on this forum, little children, everyone???

Second, and more importantly, why does that make you unhappy? You're pointing to actions of people you don't even know, nor could you possibly understand their motivation, and saying it makes you unhappy. Why is that? What is some stranger on a trains' connection to you? And by including virtually everyone in your statement of frustration, are you limiting your possibilities to find oasis' of relationships?

All I can do is provoke.I become spiteful.

Are you honestly saying 'all you can do'? You go to everyone you see and become spiteful and provoke them? You said earlier that 'everyone' is doing something you don't like. Is this really true? What is really true?

WW

I appreciate what you have to say, WW, but I'm not interested in playing devil's advocate.

I'm quite sure you understand what I'm trying to say. We both know that language is never exact, much less does it have to be, to be able to point to or convey a message.

If your goal is to debunk every word, you win, because I don't have the energy or motivation to play that game.

dijmart wrote:...This has reminded me of something that happened to me last year. I went to a diner alone for lunch and while I waited for my food a much older man stopped at my table while I was reading something on my phone.

He said, you're just like the rest of them...what a shame. I said, excuse me? He said, you have your nose in that phone and don't even notice your surroundings. I said, I've noticed my surroundings. There's nothing going on, so Im reading on my phone. Me reading on my phone is like you reading the newspaper, right? He said, whatever ...and walked away.

Maybe he has felt this disconnect also... He probably hates cell phones, ect, but why he'd lashed out at me, when I was by myself? That I don't get, since there wasn't anyone for me to interact with....

Ok, carry on....

I think his problem was a generation gap and fear of the unknown. Same reason why large predators like tigers and bears are afraid of humans - not because we're stronger (LOL, we're clearly not), but because they're afraid of the unknown. But, once they chase down a human and get a taste of our flesh, it's a different story.

I'm talking about something quite different - the realization of how technology is really just amplifying human madness, with a thorough knowledge of that technology - an understanding of what it's capable of, including the good along with the bad.

Saying cell phones are crap having never used one, is one thing. Saying cell phones are amplifying human madness, having worked with, used, and developed apps for them, is another.

I appreciate what you have to say, WW, but I'm not interested in playing devil's advocate.

I'm quite sure you understand what I'm trying to say. We both know that language is never exact, much less does it have to be, to be able to point to or convey a message.

If your goal is to debunk every word, you win, because I don't have the energy or motivation to play that game.

Where is the devil's advocate in my comments?You have to know that being so general is simply a way to avoid the core issues. And my goal is not to debunk anything. I'm just a guy in the coffee shop asking questions to understand the real concerns. You have yet to state what is really bothering you. I'm not sure you actually know living on the surface as you are. It is there however. If you actually want to uncover it, I'm happy to help. If you just want to complain about your life as you perceive it, I'll respect that and move on.