That is actually very good advice and it is the way that I set my
fees. So let me do some simple arithmetic to expand on this idea. For
the following assume that all significant materials are paid for by
the customer (you might pay for incidentals like wood screws, glue and
so on our of your own pocket - these things aren't that costly and are
shared amongst multiple jobs as a flat expense).

Let's start by saying you set a target to turnover 20K per year
(chosen as it is a round figure and makes the maths easier - you might
want higher or lower). Out of that figure must come your personal
reward (salary) and business costs (tools, equipment, sundry expenses,
travel costs, etc).

To some extent the gross turnover figure will depend upon which area
of the country you work in, what your personal commitments are
(mortgage etc), and other incidentals - for example do you have to run
a vehicle in order to operate the business, or is this all done on
home turf?

Take into account personal and bank holidays, sickness, training,
unexpected absence - let's be generous in the holiday/sickness
allocation and suggest you work 40 weeks a year (12 weeks holiday and
other unproductive time where you aren't contributing money to the
business). So that's 500 quid per working week - or 100 pounds per day
- or 12.5 pounds per hour.

You have to build into this a margin because it's probably not likely
you'll be working your full 40 hours per week, every week, because the
customers just aren't there queued up at the door. Here it gets a bit
trickier because you are plucking numbers out of the air. If you can
only find work for 30 hours per week then you'd have to charge 16.66
pounds per hour. If 20 hours then 25 pounds per hour.

During the early days of the new business it is quite likely that most
of your time will be spent marketing and drumming up business, so you
have to be prepared to bung in a float to get the business off the
ground - this is a loan that the company can pay back as the income
comes in. That isn't likely to be an insignificant amount of money
either, because during those first few months you've still got to eat
and the mortgage company will expect their usual fees. When I started
up I stuck a wet finger in the air and did a business plan (you
usually have to do that when opening a business bank account anyway).
As it happens my bung to the company was very inaccurate and I needed
to supply quite a bit more - but the income to the company over the
period is not very far off my original prediction - I'm happy with
that situation because at the outset I did not have a concrete idea of
what the necessary expenses would be, and as the business started to
take off I bought tools and equipment I hadn't planned for originally.

As a general handyman I didn't start out with all the tools I needed,
they've been purchased as and when needed for a particular job, and
looking back there have been several jobs where I'm well out of
pocket. But next time I undertake a similar job I won't have to buy
that tool again, so over time it will have been a worthwhile
investment.

Please apply a generous amount of "ish" to the above figures. It's all
guestimates and approximations. The idea is to figure out what level
of income is absolutely necessary before it must be considered a
complete waste of your time.

I recommend drawing a simple graph month on month, showing income and
expenditure. In the initial few months it will go pretty negative,
thereafter it had better start climbing up and to the right. At some
point in the future of the business (maybe 6 to 12 months from
startup) you need to cross the threshold of the company trading
profitably. I really wouldn't expect that to happen in the first 6
months - but it really does depend on the industry and whether you've
got customers waiting to pay you.

PoP

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"PoP" wrote
| Paul Mc Cann wrote:
| >First you want to establish what you want to earn per week. Then add
| >on overheads, phones, electric, motor vehicle costs, tool purchase and
| >maintainence , bookies, publican, bit on the side etc.
| That is actually very good advice and it is the way that I set my
| fees. ....When I started
| up I stuck a wet finger in the air and did a business plan (you
| usually have to do that when opening a business bank account anyway).
| I recommend drawing a simple graph month on month, showing income and
| expenditure. In the initial few months it will go pretty negative,
| thereafter it had better start climbing up and to the right. At some
| point in the future of the business (maybe 6 to 12 months from
| startup) you need to cross the threshold of the company trading
| profitably. I really wouldn't expect that to happen in the first 6
| months - but it really does depend on the industry and whether you've
| got customers waiting to pay you.

All very good advice. One major thing which has to be factored in is cash
flow, payment schedule and debt recovery.

If doing jobs for householders then payment is likely to be fairly prompt as
you can demand it at the time, although you have to take a risk on bounced
cheques and/or credit card disputes. If you can get your materials on 28-day
trade account, then you have a positive cash flow.

If however the jobs are for businesses then invoicing is required (this will
take up clerical time which is time spent not earning) and it's quite common
for many businesses to pay invoices at the end of the month after the month
in which the invoice is received, you have a 6-8 week delay or more. And
some will never pay; Bad Debts Ritten Off (BDRO) goes under expenses in the
accounts. Meanwhile you have to pay bills to suppliers or you can't get
materials and the phone gets cut off.

More businesses fail because of cash flow than because of unprofitability or
lack of work. And if you are reliant on one or two major clients, the
collapse of one can bring you down.

"Owain" <> wrote in message
news:...
> "PoP" wrote
> | Paul Mc Cann wrote:
> | >First you want to establish what you want to earn per week. Then add
> | >on overheads, phones, electric, motor vehicle costs, tool purchase and
> | >maintainence , bookies, publican, bit on the side etc.
> | That is actually very good advice and it is the way that I set my
> | fees. ....When I started
> | up I stuck a wet finger in the air and did a business plan (you
> | usually have to do that when opening a business bank account anyway).
> | I recommend drawing a simple graph month on month, showing income and
> | expenditure. In the initial few months it will go pretty negative,
> | thereafter it had better start climbing up and to the right. At some
> | point in the future of the business (maybe 6 to 12 months from
> | startup) you need to cross the threshold of the company trading
> | profitably. I really wouldn't expect that to happen in the first 6
> | months - but it really does depend on the industry and whether you've
> | got customers waiting to pay you.
>
> All very good advice. One major thing which has to be factored in is cash
> flow, payment schedule and debt recovery.
>
> If doing jobs for householders then payment is likely to be fairly prompt as
> you can demand it at the time, although you have to take a risk on bounced
> cheques and/or credit card disputes.

??????
It is rare that I can engage a small trader who will accept a cheque. The
possibility that one of them will have Credit card facilities is most unlikely.

tim

> If you can get your materials on 28-day
> trade account, then you have a positive cash flow.
>
> If however the jobs are for businesses then invoicing is required (this will
> take up clerical time which is time spent not earning) and it's quite common
> for many businesses to pay invoices at the end of the month after the month
> in which the invoice is received, you have a 6-8 week delay or more. And
> some will never pay; Bad Debts Ritten Off (BDRO) goes under expenses in the
> accounts. Meanwhile you have to pay bills to suppliers or you can't get
> materials and the phone gets cut off.
>
> More businesses fail because of cash flow than because of unprofitability or
> lack of work. And if you are reliant on one or two major clients, the
> collapse of one can bring you down.
>
> Owain
>
>

"Michael McNeil" <> wrote in message
news:...
> "The Natural Philosopher" <> wrote in message
> news:
> > > Because im starting up and want help with my prices
> > 150 a day.
> It sounds like he wants to get some site work in before he goes on his
> own.
>
> The major difference with doing work on finished property is that
> everything gets in the way, there is always a seconday problem like poor
> lighting and botched jobs from the previous incumbents that cause
> problems.
>
> The quality of the stuff they want fitted and the temperatures you have
> to work in all cause difficulties. Then there are the endless cups of
> teas and (in my case especially) beautiful but overdemanding lonely
> young women.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:19:46 +0100, "tim"
<> wrote:
>It is rare that I can engage a small trader who will accept a cheque. The
>possibility that one of them will have Credit card facilities is most unlikely.

I take cheques (preferred as then there's no issue with the Inland
Revenue who can trace the transaction if they really want to waste
their time on a wild goose chase) or cash (which gets banked into the
company bank account 100% of the time). But not credit cards.

PoP

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On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:27:55 +0000 (UTC), "Michael McNeil"
<> wrote:
>The quality of the stuff they want fitted and the temperatures you have
>to work in all cause difficulties. Then there are the endless cups of
>teas and (in my case especially) beautiful but overdemanding lonely
>young women.

Fortunately that's not a problem I've had to deal with, though I did
have one lady (single) say "it's just like rent-a-hubby". To which my
instant response was "I don't offer all services".

If I got the come-on from a customer I'd pack up and leave regardless
of where I was with the job. Not worth the trouble.

PoP

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"tim" wrote
| > If doing jobs for householders then payment is likely to be fairly
| > prompt as you can demand it at the time, although you have to take
| > a risk on bounced cheques and/or credit card disputes.
| ??????
| It is rare that I can engage a small trader who will accept a cheque.
| The possibility that one of them will have Credit card facilities
| is most unlikely.

Presumably because they are not willing to take that risk. However 'cash
only' always seems synonymous to 'fly-by-night' and 'tax fraud' to me. Also
I find the practice of frog-marching Grandma to the cashpoint too redolent
of double-glazing salesmen desperate to get a signature and deposit off a
punter.

Getting a mobile credit card terminal might be worthwhile if one is aiming
at a rather more 'upmarket' clientele who put everything on plastic.

In message <>, Owain
<> writes
>"tim" wrote
>| > If doing jobs for householders then payment is likely to be fairly
>| > prompt as you can demand it at the time, although you have to take
>| > a risk on bounced cheques and/or credit card disputes.
>| ??????
>| It is rare that I can engage a small trader who will accept a cheque.
>| The possibility that one of them will have Credit card facilities
>| is most unlikely.
>
>Presumably because they are not willing to take that risk. However 'cash
>only' always seems synonymous to 'fly-by-night' and 'tax fraud' to me. Also
>I find the practice of frog-marching Grandma to the cashpoint too redolent
>of double-glazing salesmen desperate to get a signature and deposit off a
>punter.
>
>Getting a mobile credit card terminal might be worthwhile if one is aiming
>at a rather more 'upmarket' clientele who put everything on plastic.
>

I think I get charged 1.7% for a visa transaction and £20 / month for
the terminal. What it would cost just for a mechanical swipe machine I
don't know, but it's such a convenient way of getting paid, and people
tend to have cards to hand as opposed to cash and they don't even
remember where their cheque book is.

Now that I'm converted, I think it's more a mental barrier than anything
else
--
geoff

On 22 Dec 2003 14:12:30 GMT, ojunk (take away nojunk)
wrote:
>Doesn't the quality & standard of workmanship come into fruition when assessing
>what to charge customers, I personally wouldn't do anything unless it was on a
>price, exception maybe external work in winter. Very interesting comment about
>the credit card, how do you look into such a thing? Incidently which area are
>you in??

Re external work. I just bought myself a quilted set of overalls from
an army & navy surplus store, and they make working outside much less
of a challenge. I'd recommend them to anyone who might be confronted
by working in low temperatures.

PoP

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In message <>, take away
nojunk <> writes
>Doesn't the quality & standard of workmanship come into fruition when assessing
>what to charge customers, I personally wouldn't do anything unless it was on a
>price, exception maybe external work in winter. Very interesting comment about
>the credit card, how do you look into such a thing? Incidently which area are
>you in??

Who are you talking to ?

While snipping is to be commended, removing all references to what
you're talking about makes it a bit difficult to fathom
--
geoff

I thought you were saying you came home early and found your wife with
someone she had invited in to do some work.....

But then I saw what you meant...!

PoP

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In message <>, PoP
<> writes
>On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:47:12 +0000, mark <>
>wrote:
>
>>I actually found my wife like this over a decade ago.......
>>Of course it's all different now.
>
>I had to re-read your message a couple of times before I twigged.....
>
>I thought you were saying you came home early and found your wife with
>someone she had invited in to do some work.....
>
>But then I saw what you meant...!
>
LOL!

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:49:37 +0000, mark <>
wrote:
>She has assured me that such a thing would never happen......

Yes, but most people I know are able to resist absolutely anything,
except temptation

PoP

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