Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider
registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

I absolutely loathe dogs of any and all kinds. I'd have demanded to get another seat well away from the vile animal long before any such "incident" could occur. From my, admittedly cursory, perusal of the story the victim of the savaging doesn't seem to have asked to be moved. I wonder if he did and it was refused.

A couple friends of mine raise puppies for Canine Companions for Independence. They do the initial training for the dogs which may later be trained to me assistance animals, hearing dogs or the like.. Not emotional support animals. They do see the issue, and the problem behind the false certificates. It hurts genuine dogs, and the people that need them. However, how do you determine what is legit, and what is.. a fake cape and note?

Extremely reasonable as long as airlines/airports are required to provide assistance to those who need it while their service animal is unavailable, and as long as there is a system in place to quickly return the animal upon arrival. There shouldn't be any significant need for the animal in the cabin of an airplane.

__________________"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

Extremely reasonable as long as airlines/airports are required to provide assistance to those who need it while their service animal is unavailable, and as long as there is a system in place to quickly return the animal upon arrival. There shouldn't be any significant need for the animal in the cabin of an airplane.

Surely some blind people might like to be able to walk around once they get where they're going?

"....The peacock is reportedly called Dexter, a rescue pet of Brooklyn-based artist Ventiko who documents the animal's life on social media.....

If Ventriko also wants to document the peacock's flight, I'd have no objections putting him in a crate alongside the peacock in the hold as well.

__________________"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

Surely some blind people might like to be able to walk around once they get where they're going?

Originally Posted by 3point14

It hadn't actually occurred to me that the animal could travel in the hold with the non-service animals.

It occurred to me while I was typing the post to which you initially replied.

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

Extremely reasonable as long as airlines/airports are required to provide assistance to those who need it while their service animal is unavailable, and as long as there is a system in place to quickly return the animal upon arrival. There shouldn't be any significant need for the animal in the cabin of an airplane.

Extremely reasonable as long as airlines/airports are required to provide assistance to those who need it while their service animal is unavailable, and as long as there is a system in place to quickly return the animal upon arrival. There shouldn't be any significant need for the animal in the cabin of an airplane.

Most airlines have this system or something very similar. My wife uses a wheeled walker. She walks with it all the way down the boarding ramp to the plane door. She then hands it to a baggage handler who takes it down the adjacent stairs to the tarmac and loads it onto the plane. At the destination we then wait at the plane door while it is retrieved and she then uses it to walk up the exit ramp. The wait for retrieval is usually 2 or 3 minutes as the airlines appear to make this a priority.

__________________Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

It occurred to me while I was typing the post to which you initially replied.

"Extremely reasonable as long as airlines/airports are required to provide assistance to those who need it while their service animal is unavailable, and as long as there is a system in place to quickly return the animal upon arrival. There shouldn't be any significant need for the animal in the cabin of an airplane. "

I agree, but with reservations. Blind people with guide dogs have their dog with them constantly. I imagine, if I were blind, having the dog with me at all times would be a comfort.

Oh, and another thought that blows it all out of the water - if there is an issue and there needs to be emergency disembarkation does the visually impaired person need their dog to be able to safely exit the plane?

I agree, but with reservations. Blind people with guide dogs have their dog with them constantly. I imagine, if I were blind, having the dog with me at all times would be a comfort.

Oh, and another thought that blows it all out of the water - if there is an issue and there needs to be emergency disembarkation does the visually impaired person need their dog to be able to safely exit the plane?

I agree, but with reservations. Blind people with guide dogs have their dog with them constantly. I imagine, if I were blind, having the dog with me at all times would be a comfort.

Oh, and another thought that blows it all out of the water - if there is an issue and there needs to be emergency disembarkation does the visually impaired person need their dog to be able to safely exit the plane?

These are legitimate concerns.

I imagine guide dogs are well trained to deal with public transportation. A guide dog on a plane should be quite as comfortable as it would be on a bus. Much more so than a "companion animal".

In a real emergency a dog in the cargo hold may not be able to be retrieved at all. The priority would obviously be the human passengers. I also wonder how guide dog training deals with emergencies where there may be a lot of panicked people in a confined area. Do they have training for this, or would they be subject to confusion in such an unexpected and unusual situation?

__________________Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

Yes. Getting a dog from the plane to a crate in the hold, and vice-versa, is a pretty long process. I think precious few people would object to genuine service dogs being in the cabin.

It shouldn't have to be. Every time I fly, I see people who for whatever reason choose to check their bag planeside rather than at the ticket counter. When the flight lands, these people receive their bags right there in the jetway, before even getting to the terminal itself. At most they have to wait a few minutes while the handlers bring all of that particular class of luggage to the jetway.

I see no logistical reason why service animals can't be similarly prioritized and immediately reunited with their owners at the ends of flights.

Most airlines have this system or something very similar. My wife uses a wheeled walker. She walks with it all the way down the boarding ramp to the plane door. She then hands it to a baggage handler who takes it down the adjacent stairs to the tarmac and loads it onto the plane. At the destination we then wait at the plane door while it is retrieved and she then uses it to walk up the exit ramp. The wait for retrieval is usually 2 or 3 minutes as the airlines appear to make this a priority.

My wife uses exactly the same system, except it's never available on arrival. There's always a wheelchair or electric buggy to get her to the luggage carousel where her walker appears. But then our only flights are international and maybe that makes a difference?

Still, dealing with a guide dog isn't quite the same as dealing with a rollator. My money says the guide dog should be in the cabin, not least because a period of time where the dog is separated from its owner, and stashed in a crate in pretty stressful conditions, isn't really conducive to the dog being fit to do its job within minutes of landing?

__________________"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

It can't be that hard to allow properly accredited guide dogs on a plane.

__________________Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

My wife uses exactly the same system, except it's never available on arrival. There's always a wheelchair or electric buggy to get her to the luggage carousel where her walker appears. But then our only flights are international and maybe that makes a difference?

All our recent flights have been Canada - USA. Quite likely other countries will do things differently.

Originally Posted by GlennB

Still, dealing with a guide dog isn't quite the same as dealing with a rollator. My money says the guide dog should be in the cabin, not least because a period of time where the dog is separated from its owner, and stashed in a crate in pretty stressful conditions, isn't really conducive to the dog being fit to do its job within minutes of landing?

I agree completely.

__________________Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

It shouldn't have to be. Every time I fly, I see people who for whatever reason choose to check their bag planeside rather than at the ticket counter. When the flight lands, these people receive their bags right there in the jetway, before even getting to the terminal itself. At most they have to wait a few minutes while the handlers bring all of that particular class of luggage to the jetway.

I see no logistical reason why service animals can't be similarly prioritized and immediately reunited with their owners at the ends of flights.

What airline do you fly on? Whenever I do a plan side baggage check, the bags always end up on the baggage carousel in the terminal.

Since the airlines require "hefty" passengers to purchase a second seat, why did not this man have a seat for his animal? A fifty lb animal in your lap for hours? Call the ASPCA, that's cruel.

Because since expecting someone to pay for the seat would be out of the question the airline would be forced to swallow that lost revenue.

And given recent incidents yeah, let's overbook a flight and have the cell phone cameras rolling when some guy gets drug off the plan in handcuffs because he got bumped for somebody's emotional support beluga. That will end well.

__________________"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

Hobart says the changes were in the works long before Sunday's peacock incident, as United has seen a 75 percent year-over-year increase in the number of customers bringing emotional support animals onboard. The airline also has experienced a significant increase in onboard incidents involving these animals, including biting, aggression, urination, defecation, allergic reactions, conflict and other disruptions.

These are the changes for United:

Quote:

Under the changes, passengers traveling with emotional support animals will be required to notify the airline's Accessibility Desk at least 48 hours in advance, and they'll also need to provide a letter signed by a mental health professional indicating the passenger's need to travel with an emotional support animal.

In addition, "the customer must provide confirmation that the animal has been trained to behave properly in a public setting and acknowledge responsibility for the animal's behavior," according to a statement from the airline.

Quote:

United's action follows similar policy changes announced Jan. 19 at Delta Airlines, which says it carries about 700 service or support animals daily — nearly 250,000 annually. In a statement, Delta said, "Customers have attempted to fly with comfort turkeys, gliding possums known as sugar gliders, snakes, spiders and more."

Both airlines point to the Transportation Department inaction on calls to implement clearer and more stringent guidelines on service and comfort animals as the reason for their own policy changes, which will go into effect March 1.

This is from Delta's website:

Quote:

In compliance with the Air Carrier Access Act, Delta provides in-cabin travel for service and support animals without charge. The guidelines, effective March 1, require that all customers traveling with a service or support animal show proof of health or vaccinations 48 hours in advance. In addition to the current requirement of a letter prepared and signed by a doctor or licensed mental health professional, those with psychiatric service animals and emotional support animals will also need to provide a signed document confirming that their animal can behave to prevent untrained, sometimes aggressive household pets from traveling without a kennel in the cabin. These measures are intended to help ensure that those customers traveling with a trained service or support animal will no longer be at risk of untrained pets attacking their working animal, as has previously been reported.

It just comes down to a lot of people being ******** and abusing a policy that has the best of intentions. Personally, I would be mortified to lie and say my pet was a support animal just to save a bit of money. Some people,are just dicks.

Well, on airplanes, anyway. Although not extremely skilled in the art, peacocks are not considered flightless birds. They can flutter up into the air sufficiently enough to escape a predator's attack. They just won't get served a pretzel snack while aloft.

Bad info from Spirit Air led me to flush pet hamster down airport toilet, student says

Originally Posted by Miami Herald

Before Belen Aldecosea flew home from from college to South Florida, she twice called Spirit Airlines to ensure she could bring along a special guest: Pebbles, her pet dwarf hamster. No problem, the airline told her.

But when Aldecosea arrived at the Baltimore airport, Spirit refused to allow the tiny animal on the flight.

With her only friends hours away at campus, Aldecosea was stuck. She says an airline representative suggested flushing Pebbles down an airport toilet, a step that Spirit denies. Panicked and needing to return home promptly to deal with a medical issue, Aldecosea unsuccessfully tried renting a car and agonized for hours before doing the unthinkable.

Sure- it is very plausible to me that someone whose emotional support animal was so crucial to her that she needed to travel with it, that it was central to her psychological well being, would just flush the animal down the toilet when an airline refused to fly it.

I hope my wife doesn't view me the same way the next time there is some glitch with me boarding a plane.

She claims that an employee told her she should flush the hamster down a toilet. While that's possible (some people are really dumb), I can't help but suspect she's lying.

For the nothing it's worth, here's how I would imagine the conversation going down if the employee had any sense at all:

Employee: We can't let you on the plane with your hamster.
<snipped argument about emotional support>
Hamster Fan: Then what am I supposed to do with him?
Employee: That's up to you, but you can't get on the plane with your pet.
Hamster Fan: <flush> Okay, I'm ready to board. Sue...I mean see you later!

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if she bought the hamster specifically to set up this exact situation.

I very recently took 4 airline flights and there was a "support dog" in three. Not one appeared to me to be specially trained. They were reasonably non-aggressive animals but as far as I could tell "emotional support" meant simply that the owners enjoy having the dog with them, and by invoking "emotional support" they got to fly the dog for free. One animal was a good 40 pounds and rode on the owner's lap in the middle seat. Lovely for the flanking passengers I am sure.

This just doesn't seem to be working out well doing it the way we have been doing it up to now...

I am not certain if I mean this sarcastically or not, but why am I not be able to announce that my wife is my emotional support animal and fly her for free? Being with my wife does provide a tremendous benefit to me emotionally, generally calms me (if we don't argue about something trivial), and I find her to be a key psychological support for me in many different ways. Okay- put her in a cute vest and it's half price for the two of us!

To be fair, some (including me) would be perfectly happy having a nice dog - even if it's someone else's - flopping halfway onto their lap during a plane ride. It would definitely keep me calm.

Of course, the problems arise when the dog isn't nice or just can't handle the flight, which is why I'm in favor of a no non-humans policy in the airplane cabin.

Or simply the flanking passengers don't like it (whatever the behavior of the dog) and yet they have been committed to it by the actions of their fellow passenger.

Don't get me wrong- I love dogs. But I like to make the decisions as to my interactions with them on my own. Also I am particularly easily irritated on plane flights- sharing my personal space with a strange human next to me is problem enough. The strange human plus a strange dog- worse. The strange dog alone? Probably better!

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.