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Self-Image and Party Politics

Kevin Coombs/ReutersAre Democrats and Republicans struggling with who they are and what they represent?

In The Conversation, David Brooks and Gail Collins talk between columns every Wednesday.

David Brooks: Bob, what do you think about the state of our political parties? Is it possible for both parties to lose at the same time?

If conservatives won’t accept moderate candidates in the Northeast, then they are sentencing themselves to permanent minority status.

On the one hand, the Republicans are in bad shape politically. Only 20 percent of voters identify themselves as registered members of the party. Meanwhile, the G.O.P. is having some sort of breakdown. Take the House race in New York’s 23rd District. A woman named Dede Scozzafava is the official Republican candidate. Political scientist Boris Shor did some sophisticated analyses of her voting record in the State Legislature, comparing her to legislators across the country. Her voting record puts her almost exactly in the middle of legislators nationwide. That means she’s a moderate, though slightly right of center in the context of New York.

So do the conservative honchos welcome somebody in the middle of the spectrum? No. The entire conservative movement seems to be coming out in favor of the third party candidate. If conservatives won’t accept moderate candidates in the Northeast, then they are sentencing themselves to permanent minority status. It’s insane.

Bob Herbert: I have to say, I’m baffled by what the political parties are doing. The Republicans are behaving like a party with a death wish. They have a golden opportunity to make substantial inroads in Congress next year and set the stage for a possible White House comeback in 2012. But as you point out, a rigid hard-right strategy that undermines G.O.P. candidates who might appeal to moderate and independent voters is exactly the wrong way to proceed. I don’t get it.

You’re exactly right about Dede Scozzafava. She’s a perfectly viable, moderately conservative G.O.P. candidate in upstate New York. But Republican heavyweights like Sarah Palin, Fred Thompson and Tim Pawlenty have ganged up against her because she’s not a right-winger.

The Democrats regained control of Congress by aggressively supporting moderate and even conservative candidates in places where a liberal agenda just wasn’t going to fly. It only made sense. Can the Republican Party really be too blind to see the obvious lessons from that? The Democrats certainly hope so.

David Brooks: The Democrats have their problems too. And if anything, their problems are deeper because they are intellectual, not merely partisan. The Obama administration has sent the country off to the right. The president is creating a counter-realignment.

Far more independents (35 percent) consider themselves conservative than was the case a year ago (only 29 percent).

These findings would be less compelling if they were not linked to conservative shifts on specific issues — but they are, and the Gallup organization enumerates a considerable list. Among them: increasing opposition to government regulation of business and gun ownership; an uneasy feeling about the influence of labor unions; increasing support for immigration restrictions and government promotion of traditional values; and diminished support for strong action on climate change. The percentage of Americans who believe that government is trying to do too much stands at its highest level (57 percent) in many years. Trust in government is near all-time lows, and Americans believe that 50 cents of every federal tax dollar is wasted — the highest level ever.

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that unified Democratic government has sparked a conservative counter-mobilization.

The big challenge for Democrats, I think, is the deficit. I hear about this wherever I go. People are terrified of the dangerous spending levels. Is there a way Democrats can solve the spending problem so that the whole Obama program seems something other than a dangerous binge financed by the Chinese?

Bob Herbert: Obama was swept into office on a wave of change that was driven by the economic distress being felt by millions of American families. People were more than willing to swallow big government deficits if that was the only way to stabilize the economy and relieve their personal economic plight. Well, the economy has been stabilized, more or less, and the president and the Fed deserve credit for fending off a catastrophe. But from the public’s perspective, not nearly enough has been done to improve the economic health of the average American. Voters are being told that the recession is over, but what they see in their daily lives are continuing job losses, an epidemic of foreclosures, families going bankrupt, homelessness rising and so on.

The disenchantment among people who wholeheartedly supported Obama is palpable and growing.

These are issues tailor-made for the Democrats. But the president and his party, rather than making the bread-and-butter issues of the American family their top domestic priority, have focused on reforming the health care system. As important as health care is (and our system is a disgrace), it was not the issue at the top of the agenda for most Americans when Barack Obama was elected president.

The widespread feeling among people I’ve talked to over the past few weeks is that the only ones benefiting from deficits being driven to the moon are the big banks and Wall Street. Folks are not opposed to a health care overhaul, but they’re understandably wary. They fear it will drive the deficits higher and they’re not sure that this big, complicated, very difficult to understand system is the best thing for their families. There is genuine worry about what might happen if the new system — whatever its final contours — turns out to be unaffordable.

The disenchantment I’m hearing from people who wholeheartedly supported Obama, and not just liberals, is palpable and growing. It’s early, but the big changes people were hoping for have not materialized, and voters don’t seem to be in the mood now for initiatives — even necessary ones — that will cost a lot of money. The Democrats were given a very strong political hand when Obama took office, and they have not played it well.

One other point: I think both parties are misreading the public’s mood on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Whatever individual polls might say, most ordinary Americans are fed up with those conflicts and have no stomach for the rising casualties that would accompany an expansion of the fighting in Afghanistan. The conservative trend you mentioned is, I think, a manifestation of the desire to wind down the extraordinary drama of the past several years and begin to focus, in a prudent, common-sense way, on the myriad problems facing us here at home. The Times’s story Wednesday about Hamid Karzai’s brother being on the C.I.A.’s payroll and his alleged involvement in the opium trade was devastating.

I think a lot of other Americans join me in wishing that the people who are elected to represent us would roll up their sleeves and actually try to solve some of the massive problems. That is what I see President Obama trying to do, even Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid are trying to thread several needles simultaneously. I seldom see Republcans do anything other than posture for t.v. One of the main differences between the Obama administration and the Bush/Cheney cabal, is that Obama is trying to respond to the wishes of the American people, while Bush/Cheney simply imposed their own agenda. If people can’t see the truth, we will all suffer. I have no real hope for the future of the world politics and climate, but I really don’t think it’s the Democrats fault. Maybe it’s just built into our DNA. It’s so much easier to be destructive than to be constructive. And it turns out it’s a cinch to be destructive when there is 24/7 media coverage following the most sensational angle.

1. Dede Scozzafava is NOT a moderate. She’s being hit from the RIGHT by both the DEMOCRAT and the CONSERVATIVE in the race. Comments from Hebert and Brooks regarding this woman’s ‘moderation’ really enforces the fact that they are out of touch with the political winds.

2. It is about time we segregate ‘Republican’ from ‘Conservative’. I could care less if the Republicans ever win another election, honest to God. The only thing I care about in ANY candidate is whether they stand for individual liberty and support a efficient and effective government that is strongest at the local level.

3. When can we stop judging legislation on its INTENTIONS and start judging it solely on its RESULTS?!?!? I’m sure all lefties and righties can agree that all Americans should have some sort of Health Insurance, but is creating another enormous entitlement program with no clear cut objectives the correct way to go? Let’s ask two questions: Will it be effective? Is it efficient?

If these two questions are not answered, why are we doing it? Just because Nancy Pelosi says it will be cost-effective is NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

Let’s stop bowing at the alter of the almight Federal government and support candidates that promote INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY!!!!!!!!

I read somwhere that the true Conservatives over the last 50 years were Eisenhower and Clinton.

I’m an “independent” who is worried about both the deficit and climate change, because both speak to the issue of “responsibility”, an issue that used to be considered “conservative.” He who benefits, pays, either the cost of the benefit, or the cost of the cleanup.

I joined the Reform party when Ross anit-deficit Perot ran for President and left after Pat Buchanan became the candidate. Then, pressure on Clinton resulted in surpluses, which could have been used to pay down debts, but was squandered by Bush and the Conservatives.

It’s interesting to hear today’s conservatives suddenly worried about deficit spending, particularly when they refuse to allow a government that gives people the ability to pay taxes to reduce deficits. That is now the big sin, and every form of asking people to take responsbility for their costs and actions is label some form of “taxation.”

I’m ready to pay my share of taxes, and yes, I agree that Democrats try to do too much with government, but I don’t agree that government is inherently evil. Often we need government intervention, but sometimes only a slight amount, and sometimes only temporarily.

“It’s early..the big changes people were hoping for have not materialized…”. Maybe Mr. Herbert and the people he has been talking to need to be constantly reminded that Obama has been in office less than a year, of an initial four-year mandate. This is talk for 2012, not October 2009. The biggest problem Mr. Obama faces, in my view, is the lack of perspective and impatience of segments of the public. Luckily, for the most part (according to majority of credible polls) Obama’s popularity and approval among the populace still remains relatively high, considering the catastrophe on multiple fronts that he inherited. As for health care reform, it was a central part of his domestic platform. He has made the case over and over again (and so has the economic data), that reform is tied to economic growth and improvement in living standards (see recent reports about premiums rising exponentially on small businesses and the effect these costs have on stagnating salaries). Health Care Reform is an economic imperative; it is also politically imperative that the President strike while his iron is still hot, instead of wait for a volatile political environment to settle, possibly around substantial Republican gains in 2010 (I doubt this, but it is a remote possibility), which would make Health Care Reform inviable. So no, Obama is not a magician, but in less than a year in office, he has steered the country away from a catastrophe and is about to enact historic and highly necessary legislation. Mr. Herbert, you are way too negative on the President; just hold your breath a while and save the fire for a few years down the road; if things continue as bad as they are today, then I will be the first to join your bandwagon.

Not bad. The greatest misread here is that it is written by two East Coast, New York liberals who haven’t the slightest understanding of either the republican party, the conservative movement, or more importantly what the “middle” of America wants, needs, or desires.

Leave it to two clueless Lefties to not understand conservatives. The truly conservative candidate will win most elections. Why do you think Lefties running for office hide their Leftist credentials when the normally non-interested start to finally pay attention during an election cycle?

And yes, Brooks is far from being a conservative, though to the people at the Times he apparently looks like Reagan.

For conservatives to do well in the coming elections I offer some advice – don’t move to the middle, don’t cower from Leftist attacks. Stand on principle. Be conservative. Win.

I love how Republicans are saying, “Well, even though no one says they are Republican, they still say they are conservative.” As if that means anything. The Republicans have demonized “liberal” or “progressive” so much, that the term “conservative” is meaningless beyond “citizen”.
Be real. The Republican party has been shanghaied by the far right wing crazies who hate government so much, they will never elect real “governors” again. They will only nominate religious-conservatives with the singular aim to abolish abortion and abolish the separation between church and state. They don’t care if the people they nominate aren’t very smart or qualified. They only care if they agree with their philosophy and will DO as they say.

Therefore, that means that sane moderates who would have been Republican a generation ago, who believe that there a legitimate need for governance, will have no place to go. They will withdraw from government or will (or have been) snatched up by the likes of Rahm Immanual and the Democratic party. Thus, turning the Democratic party has turned into the de facto “conservative party”.

The Democrats long ago abandoned (if they ever really did represent) liberalism in the truest sense when they voted for Bill Clinton. And the party is still smitten with him — even though he perpetuated Reaganomics and Free Market ideals to a tee, and had a had in our current meltdown.

They have become the party of big corporate interests and don’t give a rat’s patoot about the middle class — except at campaign time.

Until progressives WAKE UP and reclaim their spines and form a new party, the Dems are going to be in charge, fellows. I don’t think that’s going to change — until A REALLY BIG financial crash happens. And since Obama and the Dems aren’t doing anything to reform our broken system, maybe that will happen sooner than any of us expect.

How the heck are parents – all of whom have witnessed the degradation of our lives from the drug trade (endless tax dollars to police and prisons, whole areas of our nation unsafe from the influence of drug gangs) supposed to talk to our kids about what it means to be a righteous American when our federal agencies appear to be basically facilitating the heroin trade in Afghanistan?

What is going on in this country? Where have we gone? Who is in charge? This is becoming to appear like a well planned, slow motion train wreck.

The Democrats get my vote for the next 8 years at least!! I’ve realized there really are huge differences between the Democrat and Republican Parties of the United States.

Dems have debates and dissent within their own party.

Personally, I don’t want my kids to be taught “intelligent design” in science classrooms. Maybe if we would’a just let weirdo Republican freaks have their ten commandments on the sidewalk none of this would’a happened….eh?

Also, I don’t think it’s any of my business if someone wants to marry a person of the same sex or opposite sex. Just plain none of my business!!

Personally I don’t think we have to sell the Constitution of the United States out, just so we can torture a few people; and doing it looking for a reason to invade Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, is just plain sick.

An example of what I think the Republican Party has been reduced to: Innuendo, propaganda and mixed with a little filibuster of contentious associations.

If you prefer a government that governs the least that’s exactly what you are going to get. I don’t believe there can be a intelligent debate with toe tapping Republican propagandists hacks. Hacks don’t want to talk, they just want to be mad about something and government is an easy target. During the Bush days, the hacks were mad at Saddam, for the wrong reasons but it didn’t stop them from supporting a two trillion dollar tax payer funded unjust war did it? Republican leaders said, “hey be mad at this”, now they are saying, “hey be mad at this”.

I feel like I have always been an unrepentent liberal, who came of age, adulthood, and now in my 60s, in a Republican and conservative, Gilded Age. On the other hand, I’ve also been irritated and disgusted by some of the idiocy emanating from the liberals. Hate crimes, no matter against which group, must be punished with appropriate strictness and harshness. Our resources must go to the vast majority of people, not the enlightened and educated few. Let the big huge banks and hedge funds do what they will with the money of their compadres. But keep them out of any part of the economy that is relevant to the vast majority of us. Rebuilt our industrial and manufacturing base. Our education system alone and its sorry state demand a sustained investment of major resources. Accountability, accountability, accountability … that becomes the mantra. We must find a way to respect and include all of us in the riches that have been concentrated for way, way, way too long in fewer and fewer hands. My father left the parched lands of the Dust Bowl, fought in the “Great War” and came home, raised a family, joined the Middle “Working” class with union wages and benefits. His grandson, my son, has a college degree and little hope of even achieving, economically, one-half what his grandfather did with an 8th grade education.

Come on Bob, “the Fed deserve credit for fending off a (financial) catastrophe…” Honestly, that was LAST YEAR’S propaganda talk. Fiat money scams has devalued the lives of all working Americans. The Fed virtually facilitated every step of our financial crisis, like a hen watching her egg (for the past thirty five years).

“Political scientist Boris Shor did some sophisticated analyses of her voting record in the State Legislature, comparing her to legislators across the country. Her voting record puts her almost exactly in the middle of legislators nationwide.”

But David – voters don’t do statistical analysis of someone’s voting record to determine where that person fits on some sort of linear scale, so I don’t get your point.

The problem with Scozzafava is, it seems, that she’s done a few things that just seem fundamentally counter to Republican values. (Card check?) The real problem, it seems to me, is a local party that’s so out of touch with the voters that they could put up someone who wouldn’t both appeal to the base and reach a broader audience.

Where I live, in California, we have three putative moderates running for governor. While I’ve heard a bit of muted grumbling about not having a real conservative option, there’s general consensus that we have a great panel to pull a candidate from – in particular, Steve Poizner’s done a good job courting the base from a set of generally moderate positions.

Again, what I see in NY23 is simply a failure of the party’s local candidate “farm club” operation.

Health Care reform is very simple………we are going to have to have death boards……..no, not really……..but the fact is that we spend 35% of our health care dollars on folks in their last 2 years of life…….that spending needs to be a choice of the individual…….not a right supported with taxpayer dollars……we just can’t afford it……..maybe its as simple as Triage at age 80…….that is to say when you hit 80 you are on your own dime for interventions, major surgery etc……65 if you are a smoker………

On the plus side, good people from all areas of the public and government are beginning to ask the right questions as far as bringing a better balance to our society. Universal Health and a public option is a huge concern for working Americans and will prove a boon to small business and the ever growing, age-discriminated, college-educated self-employed.

One of the Republicans only valid critiques of the Democratic party is that it doesn’t have the interests of the middle class at heart.

We know how corrupt and nepotistic the Republicans were over the last eight years, but the problem is that, in order to win the election in our plutocratic political system, Obama had to cozy up with all the very interests he needs to be fighting.

It’s not a matter of people being naturally left or right. People can become conservative after becoming disenchanted with the Democratic party. When Obama came into office, he had a strong mandate. But he was afraid to use it. Perhaps the problem of electing the first black man to office. Maybe Hillary, as the first woman, would have acted similarly deferential. But if Obama had taken the banks to task, showed leadership and enacted real reform, then independents would have seen that, yes, government CAN change things for the better. Unfortunately, the last few months have just stoked many of the applause lines from Republicans – that everything big govt tries to do ends up being so huge, messy and unwieldy, that it ends up making the situation worse.

Historically, this seems to always be the problem with the democrats. They always have to compromise on everything, which leads them to seem weak and ineffectual, which tends to drive people away.

If they would actually take a strong stand on things, fight tooth and nail for them, not be afraid to stand up on national TV and say, “Health Care is a moral right for all Americans, and I will simply not rest, no matter what critics may say, until we pass a medicare-for-all” then people might actually begin to believe in them. But instead, we get the mealy-mouthed, secret backroom deals with industry execs, talking out one side of the mouth because you’re too afraid to tell the American voter the truth, etc., that leads people to turn away from the party.

Bob Herbert,
Please explain what actions of President Obama have stabilized the economy and how. Kindly do not put the banks on that list for two reasons: 1. Bush put that one together and stabilizing banks did help stabilize the economy, and 2. You’ve just complained that banks and wall st. got the benefit but you don’t seem to think that’s helped the economy.

I see the Republican Party in the process of committing national suicide. The 23rd New York district race is the wrong one to pull a metaphor from, but media types without all the facts will do so anyway. I grew up in that district, and the conservatism of North Country residents isn’t really related to Sarah Palin, Dick Cheney and the slavering right wing. The right wing who is working hard to defeat the mainstream Republican candidate is driving voters into the arms of the Democratic candidate, who is very moderate, not at all the flaming liberal type. The Conservative candidate, who I know personally, is an economic conservative, whose support from the right wing results in him painted with their brush.

By excluding people of my stripe, economic conservatives and social (relatively) liberals, the Republicans also exclude independents who look for real thought, and real solutions that address problems. Continuing to do so will result in a spiraling decline in its support, candidates and success.

While I agree with David that the Democrats are doing themselves no favors these days, I think Bob is on to something with his final analysis.

Americans are not so much trending right as they are retreating from globalism in general. This latent wariness reveals itself in skepticism about bailing out multinationals, active military engagements and climate change initiatives. Something about the massive slate of ‘To-Do’ items at home and two years of Obama asking for more and more from a population that feels like it has less and less has worn this country out.

While it’s easy for me to say this, not having lost my job or my home in this recession, I would hope that most Americans can have the patience to let all these policies and programs work before taking to the streets. A $14+ trillion economy cannot turn around on a dime. Give it time to continue its recovery, wait for job gains to trail the recovery (as they always do) and THEN make assessments on the wisdom of how the economy was dealt with.

Furthermore, our national “stomach” for a war should not be a driving factor in our president’s strategic decision-making. We have entrusted government with gathering all the information and making the best decisions on our behalf. Wars are not conducted by referenda, and I would hope that our politicians have the wisdom and the temerity to do what’s right, with a long view, and not what’s popular right now.

Myopia is an illness that plagues our elected officials, and the Fourth Estate only seems to exacerbate the problem these days.

Time to leave Afghanistan……I am a 23 year veteran of the US Army……I can tell you that we always think we can get the job done…..and I am confident that we would…… given enough time and resources……however, we cannot afford to continue pouring blood and treasure into that part of the world …………which is not really a nation as we understand it but a large tribal area……..the next Twin Towers catastrophe is as likely to arise from the Horn of Africa or Indonesia as it is from Afganistan sans a US presence…….so all considered, better to hunker down in fortress America…….and make massive retaliation against nations who do not properly control their own territory our policy………..