We've talked about that article before on here. Someone at Chattanooga wanted some information to get out there. That said I dont think the southern conference expanding is what they want (its not mentioned in the article). The article brings up many points about problems with the socon. It is full of small private schools with little to no fan bases.

Thought UTC decided, in the not to distant past, to turn down an OVC invite? And, why would the Sun Belt offer them an invite? Plus, why would the SoCon expand at this time? Besides, with the Power Five gaining more and more autonomy, along with the money, from the rest — there could be another big shake up within in the next ten years. People have tossed around on here for some time now the idea of a geographical regional universities conference that would include ETSU and UTC. There are a bunch of such institutions out there in a rather compact region here in the south that potentially could make up a new and attractive conference. As for ETSU (and UTC), the SoCon, even with its flaws, makes sense while watching and waiting for the next reordering of college athletics. Side note. App State, as all on here know, jumped to the Sun Belt. But, for a number of reasons, from academics to rivalries, that move still looks strange and weird — unless they’re raking in the money now, especially from their new bowl appearances (that few outside their supporters notice, and certainly don’t attend or watch on the tube)

UTC:
Men's basketball-last in the SoCon
Football-7th place of 9 teams (only one game ahead of ETSU)
Baseball-doesn't field a team
Softball-4th out of 7 teams
Men's Tennis, next to last in conference
Women's Tennis, 4th of 7 teams,
etc.

Exactly what does UTC bring to the table for another conference? I'll answer my own question. Not much.

The timing doesn't appear to be right for them to be making threats. After they rebuild, maybe.

Its not just about wins and losses. They have the facilities to get an invite to the Sunbelt or CUSA.
Their football stadium has the capacity for 20,000 fans and according to NCAA Bylaws in order to be FBS DI you have to maintain an attendance or paid tickets of 15,000 fans every other year.

Not having a baseball team hurts them.

That attendance minimum is never enforced and you know it. If it were, nearly half the MAC would be back in FCS. UTC wouldn't meet it, either, because they're right back to where they were before Huesman got there and could be that way for a while.

UTC would need to add $10M a year to its athletic budget to be a competitive spender in the Sun Belt, and that's on top of adding baseball to their current offerings (or dropping wrestling and adding baseball in its place). That's simply not feasible in the current climate of mid-major athletics unless they get a mega-donor who's looking to offload a bunch of cash before he/she croaks. I also wonder if political pressure from other University of Tennessee system institutions (specifically the one up I-75) wouldn't put the kibosh on FBS aspirations at Chattanooga.

A lot of people are going to be really disappointed when the realignment circus they're expecting in the wake of the Big 12's GOR expiring in 2025 doesn't go the way they expect it to and schools like us and UTC don't get raptured up to FBS by the Sun Belt and C-USA.

(05-02-2018 09:59 AM)brock20 Wrote: We've talked about that article before on here. Someone at Chattanooga wanted some information to get out there. That said I dont think the southern conference expanding is what they want (its not mentioned in the article). The article brings up many points about problems with the socon. It is full of small private schools with little to no fan bases.

Thought UTC decided, in the not to distant past, to turn down an OVC invite? And, why would the Sun Belt offer them an invite? Plus, why would the SoCon expand at this time? Besides, with the Power Five gaining more and more autonomy, along with the money, from the rest — there could be another big shake up within in the next ten years. People have tossed around on here for some time now the idea of a geographical regional universities conference that would include ETSU and UTC. There are a bunch of such institutions out there in a rather compact region here in the south that potentially could make up a new and attractive conference. As for ETSU (and UTC), the SoCon, even with its flaws, makes sense while watching and waiting for the next reordering of college athletics. Side note. App State, as all on here know, jumped to the Sun Belt. But, for a number of reasons, from academics to rivalries, that move still looks strange and weird — unless they’re raking in the money now, especially from their new bowl appearances (that few outside their supporters notice, and certainly don’t attend or watch on the tube)

UTC:
Men's basketball-last in the SoCon
Football-7th place of 9 teams (only one game ahead of ETSU)
Baseball-doesn't field a team
Softball-4th out of 7 teams
Men's Tennis, next to last in conference
Women's Tennis, 4th of 7 teams,
etc.

Exactly what does UTC bring to the table for another conference? I'll answer my own question. Not much.

The timing doesn't appear to be right for them to be making threats. After they rebuild, maybe.

Its not just about wins and losses. They have the facilities to get an invite to the Sunbelt or CUSA.
Their football stadium has the capacity for 20,000 fans and according to NCAA Bylaws in order to be FBS DI you have to maintain an attendance or paid tickets of 15,000 fans every other year.

Not having a baseball team hurts them.

That attendance minimum is never enforced and you know it. If it were, nearly half the MAC would be back in FCS. UTC wouldn't meet it, either, because they're right back to where they were before Huesman got there and could be that way for a while.

UTC would need to add $10M a year to its athletic budget to be a competitive spender in the Sun Belt, and that's on top of adding baseball to their current offerings (or dropping wrestling and adding baseball in its place). That's simply not feasible in the current climate of mid-major athletics unless they get a mega-donor who's looking to offload a bunch of cash before he/she croaks. I also wonder if political pressure from other University of Tennessee system institutions (specifically the one up I-75) wouldn't put the kibosh on FBS aspirations at Chattanooga.

A lot of people are going to be really disappointed when the realignment circus they're expecting in the wake of the Big 12's GOR expiring in 2025 doesn't go the way they expect it to and schools like us and UTC don't get raptured up to FBS by the Sun Belt and C-USA.

And, on the other hand, it could be that certain schools now classified as FBS could end up on a “operating in too much red” situation as they face some harsh realities — especially if the Power Five start keeping more and more of the $$$$.

Good info, thanks. JMU will likely end up in CUSA. But, as the gap continues to widen within FBS with the Power Five distancing themselves from the others, this whole NCAA DI football classification scheme becomes more and more absurd. In all honesty, there’s the elite Power Five and the others no matter what they call themselves. That’s the way it’s always been and is not likely to change, even as these individual institutions in the Power Five conferences preach inclusivenes, diversity, et al.

(05-03-2018 10:29 AM)maddvector Wrote: The Big 12 will eventually expand by 2 teams. The rumors are 4 AAC schools and 1 independent in the running for the 2 slots.
The AAC will then grab schools from the SunBelt and/or CUSA.
UCT has the facilities for either of these two conferences. ETSU would have to upgrade its football stadium.

As long as Texas and Oklahoma are there the B12 will stay the B10, which is the current membership right now. Here is whats going to happen:

The GOR (Gang Of Rights) all ends in 2023 for all conferences. By 2021 or 2022 Texas and Oklahoma will finally announce they are taking off to the PAC whatever. And they will take Oklahoma State and most likely Kansas with them. If not Kansas then the B10 which now stands at 13 will take them to get to an even 14.

This will leave the "Little Six" in KState, Iowa State, Baylor, TCU, Texas Tech and West Virginia. They will in turn take 4-6 members of the AACk in Memphis, Cincinnati, The Florida Twins the U_Fs, SMU and Houston, big surprise UConn gets left out again. If they decide to only take 4 then SMU and on of the Florida Twins gets left out. Which now makes the "Little Six" and their new friends not a Power Conference.

That then leaves Tulane, ECU, Tulsa, Temple, UConn and Navy (Football) twisting in the wind, you need 8 for a conference. This will then make most of CUSA East (at least 4 teams) along with Southern Miss and LA Tech a decision. Do they take off to join the six leftovers or let them fend for their selves.

If four from CUSA East (say Marshall, MTSU, WKU and one of the other Florida Twins, the F_Us) go with say Southern Miss and LA Tech to the new reformed AACk then that leaves One of the Florida Twins, Charlotte and ODU in the east and UTSA, Rice, UTEP, UAB and North Texas.

There have been rumblings for 5 or so years now on each off season that UTEP is headed to the MWC, at this time along with Rice or UTSA it might just happen.

That would mean then that Rice/UTSA, UAB, North Texas, ODU, Charlotte and one of the Florida Twins will raid the Sun Belt and probably take something like this: Appy State, GA Southern, ULL, Arkansas State and South Alabama.

That would leave Troy, GA State, ULM and Texas State. What happens then is a total mystery but I could see ULM doing the samething Idaho done and tuck their tails and go to the Southland, GA State, Texas State and Troy may try and stay IA Indy but that's a hard trick to pull if you don't have money.

After this shake up I could see things settle down for a long period. But this will all start with Texas an Oklahoma which probably should have happened in 2012 and just get it over with.

(05-07-2018 01:11 AM)HerdZoned Wrote: he GOR (Gang Of Rights) all ends in 2023 for all conferences. By 2021 or 2022 Texas and Oklahoma will finally announce they are taking off to the PAC whatever. And they will take Oklahoma State and most likely Kansas with them. If not Kansas then the B10 which now stands at 13 will take them to get to an even 14.

The reason Texas and OU didn't go leave the Big 12 for a new conference and the reason the Big 12 lost the likes of Texas AM, Missouri, Colorado, & Nebraska is the the Longhorn and Sooner Networks. If they join a new conference they will not be able to keep their ESPN Networks which payed each them $300 million!

The only way they leave the Big 12 is if ESPN doesn't renew their contracts...

(05-07-2018 01:11 AM)HerdZoned Wrote: he GOR (Gang Of Rights) all ends in 2023 for all conferences. By 2021 or 2022 Texas and Oklahoma will finally announce they are taking off to the PAC whatever. And they will take Oklahoma State and most likely Kansas with them. If not Kansas then the B10 which now stands at 13 will take them to get to an even 14.

The reason Texas and OU didn't go leave the Big 12 for a new conference and the reason the Big 12 lost the likes of Texas AM, Missouri, Colorado, & Nebraska is the the Longhorn and Sooner Networks. If they join a new conference they will not be able to keep their ESPN Networks which payed each them $300 million!

The only way they leave the Big 12 is if ESPN doesn't renew their contracts...

Oh no. How could money be driving this bus, especially the Power Five Bus? These institutions are the bastions of wealth redistribution, full inclusiveness, diversity, et al ideologies. How in the world do they allow their athletic departments to horde more and more of the college athletics wealth? I am so disappointed in them??.

(05-07-2018 01:11 AM)HerdZoned Wrote: he GOR (Gang Of Rights) all ends in 2023 for all conferences. By 2021 or 2022 Texas and Oklahoma will finally announce they are taking off to the PAC whatever. And they will take Oklahoma State and most likely Kansas with them. If not Kansas then the B10 which now stands at 13 will take them to get to an even 14.

The reason Texas and OU didn't go leave the Big 12 for a new conference and the reason the Big 12 lost the likes of Texas AM, Missouri, Colorado, & Nebraska is the the Longhorn and Sooner Networks. If they join a new conference they will not be able to keep their ESPN Networks which payed each them $300 million!

The only way they leave the Big 12 is if ESPN doesn't renew their contracts...

Oh no. How could money be driving this bus, especially the Power Five Bus? These institutions are the bastions of wealth redistribution, full inclusiveness, diversity, et al ideologies. How in the world do they allow their athletic departments to horde more and more of the college athletics wealth? I am so disappointed in them??.

They're all about redistributing wealth unless it’s THEIR wealth you’re talking about

(05-07-2018 01:11 AM)HerdZoned Wrote: he GOR (Gang Of Rights) all ends in 2023 for all conferences. By 2021 or 2022 Texas and Oklahoma will finally announce they are taking off to the PAC whatever. And they will take Oklahoma State and most likely Kansas with them. If not Kansas then the B10 which now stands at 13 will take them to get to an even 14.

The reason Texas and OU didn't go leave the Big 12 for a new conference and the reason the Big 12 lost the likes of Texas AM, Missouri, Colorado, & Nebraska is the the Longhorn and Sooner Networks. If they join a new conference they will not be able to keep their ESPN Networks which payed each them $300 million!

The only way they leave the Big 12 is if ESPN doesn't renew their contracts...

Oh no. How could money be driving this bus, especially the Power Five Bus? These institutions are the bastions of wealth redistribution, full inclusiveness, diversity, et al ideologies. How in the world do they allow their athletic departments to horde more and more of the college athletics wealth? I am so disappointed in them??.

They're all about redistributing wealth unless it’s THEIR wealth you’re talking about

Saw this bumper sticker: SOCIALISM IS A GOOD IDEA UNTIL THE OTHER MAN’S MONEY RUNS OUT.

(05-07-2018 01:11 AM)HerdZoned Wrote: he GOR (Gang Of Rights) all ends in 2023 for all conferences. By 2021 or 2022 Texas and Oklahoma will finally announce they are taking off to the PAC whatever. And they will take Oklahoma State and most likely Kansas with them. If not Kansas then the B10 which now stands at 13 will take them to get to an even 14.

The reason Texas and OU didn't go leave the Big 12 for a new conference and the reason the Big 12 lost the likes of Texas AM, Missouri, Colorado, & Nebraska is the the Longhorn and Sooner Networks. If they join a new conference they will not be able to keep their ESPN Networks which payed each them $300 million!

The only way they leave the Big 12 is if ESPN doesn't renew their contracts...

I understand the reasoning for not moving in 2012. I think they both could make more money by moving. And well since the BCS started in 1996 the higher ups in most conferences have always wanted just 4 not 6. They got it down to 5 in 2012, it still needs to be cut by one conference and right now the most ustable power conference is the B12.

ESPN is hemorrhaging subscribers left and right and the number of new subscribers to the ESPN+ that just launched two weeks ago are well under the number ESPN was projecting. I'm surprised Disney hasn't tried to sell it again.

The wave of the future anyway will be streaming for everyone. I predict in 10 years almost if not all conferences will have a streaming service that is streamlined like ESPN3/watchESPN. That coupled with most of the new millennials not caring about sports or even TV (3 out of every 5 on there own do not have cable, they either stream Netflix/Roku/Sling/Hulu or have nothing at all).

I doubt ESPN goes away for a long time but just like "World Wide of Sports" on ABC (1961-1998) it to will have its demise one day.

Unless its a good G5/IAA/DII game on ESPN I haven't watched them regularly since 2006. Ive watched exactly 10 mins of College Game Day since then too. I watched 10 mins from 10:14 to 10:24 in 2014 when they run a piece on Marshall QB Rakeem Cato.

(05-09-2018 12:50 PM)HerdZoned Wrote: I understand the reasoning for not moving in 2012. I think they both could make more money by moving. And well since the BCS started in 1996 the higher ups in most conferences have always wanted just 4 not 6. They got it down to 5 in 2012, it still needs to be cut by one conference and right now the most ustable power conference is the B12.

ESPN is hemorrhaging subscribers left and right and the number of new subscribers to the ESPN+ that just launched two weeks ago are well under the number ESPN was projecting. I'm surprised Disney hasn't tried to sell it again.

The wave of the future anyway will be streaming for everyone. I predict in 10 years almost if not all conferences will have a streaming service that is streamlined like ESPN3/watchESPN. That coupled with most of the new millennials not caring about sports or even TV (3 out of every 5 on there own do not have cable, they either stream Netflix/Roku/Sling/Hulu or have nothing at all).

I doubt ESPN goes away for a long time but just like "World Wide of Sports" on ABC (1961-1998) it to will have its demise one day.

Unless its a good G5/IAA/DII game on ESPN I haven't watched them regularly since 2006. Ive watched exactly 10 mins of College Game Day since then too. I watched 10 mins from 10:14 to 10:24 in 2014 when they run a piece on Marshall QB Rakeem Cato.

I agree with this. I believe the higher ups and network people want to get to 4 conferences and those teams only play each other. The networks want an Oklahoma vs Michigan type game every week.

So with that, where do you think this leaves the group of 5? My opinion is that they need to realize what is coming and band together with the FCS schools and realign based on geography and forget about "TV Markets" because those are coming to an end. The higher ups are never going to let a G5 team in the playoff.

(05-09-2018 12:50 PM)HerdZoned Wrote: I understand the reasoning for not moving in 2012. I think they both could make more money by moving. And well since the BCS started in 1996 the higher ups in most conferences have always wanted just 4 not 6. They got it down to 5 in 2012, it still needs to be cut by one conference and right now the most ustable power conference is the B12.

ESPN is hemorrhaging subscribers left and right and the number of new subscribers to the ESPN+ that just launched two weeks ago are well under the number ESPN was projecting. I'm surprised Disney hasn't tried to sell it again.

The wave of the future anyway will be streaming for everyone. I predict in 10 years almost if not all conferences will have a streaming service that is streamlined like ESPN3/watchESPN. That coupled with most of the new millennials not caring about sports or even TV (3 out of every 5 on there own do not have cable, they either stream Netflix/Roku/Sling/Hulu or have nothing at all).

I doubt ESPN goes away for a long time but just like "World Wide of Sports" on ABC (1961-1998) it to will have its demise one day.

Unless its a good G5/IAA/DII game on ESPN I haven't watched them regularly since 2006. Ive watched exactly 10 mins of College Game Day since then too. I watched 10 mins from 10:14 to 10:24 in 2014 when they run a piece on Marshall QB Rakeem Cato.

I agree with this. I believe the higher ups and network people want to get to 4 conferences and those teams only play each other. The networks want an Oklahoma vs Michigan type game every week.

So with that, where do you think this leaves the group of 5? My opinion is that they need to realize what is coming and band together with the FCS schools and realign based on geography and forget about "TV Markets" because those are coming to an end. The higher ups are never going to let a G5 team in the playoff.

As far as P5 only playing P5 I think for most universities they know that's unrealistic. There are only 8-12 schools that could do that consistently. No way UNC/NC State, Wahington/Washington State, Northwestern, Vandy and almost anyone else could ever sustain that. Heck even after the B10 banned IAA games Purdue and others have signed contracts with IAA schools.

Here's an idea that will never happen, those 8-12 schools can form a conference of their own and only play each other.

I also don't see the G5 banding together with IAA schools and regionalizing. There is no way you will ever see Marshall play another football game in Cullowhee NC or Greenville SC. And you won't see MTSU/WKU playing in Clarksville TN (Austin Peay).

I think one day long long way off and probably after I'm dead, I'm 46 so hopefully I'm still far from the grave I think there will be a reshuffling of most G5 conferences. But I don't see that happening in the imed future.

As for ETSU I think you would have been better off when you brought football back in the OVC. I think you may have had a chance to pull UTC with you at the time. At least ETSU would have been with like minded public universities and not stuck with the privates in the SoCon. Also they have never traveled well. In the 18 years Marshall was in the SoCon the biggest crowd Furman ever brought to Huntington was around 45-50.

(05-10-2018 12:32 PM)HerdZoned Wrote: As for ETSU I think you would have been better off when you brought football back in the OVC. I think you may have had a chance to pull UTC with you at the time. At least ETSU would have been with like minded public universities and not stuck with the privates in the SoCon. Also they have never traveled well. In the 18 years Marshall was in the SoCon the biggest crowd Furman ever brought to Huntington was around 45-50.

I am starting to lean that way more. At the time I think most fans liked the idea of being back in the SoCon because of what it once was and honestly just glad to get anywhere other than the Asun. The socon is now basically a conference full of small private schools. The OVC with us and Chatt looks like it makes for a better fit.

(05-10-2018 12:32 PM)HerdZoned Wrote: As for ETSU I think you would have been better off when you brought football back in the OVC. I think you may have had a chance to pull UTC with you at the time. At least ETSU would have been with like minded public universities and not stuck with the privates in the SoCon. Also they have never traveled well. In the 18 years Marshall was in the SoCon the biggest crowd Furman ever brought to Huntington was around 45-50.

I am starting to lean that way more. At the time I think most fans liked the idea of being back in the SoCon because of what it once was and honestly just glad to get anywhere other than the Asun. The socon is now basically a conference full of small private schools. The OVC with us and Chatt looks like it makes for a better fit.

Remember, ETSU, Belmont, and Lipscomb were poised to join the OVC a few years ago, but the idiots in charge decided to stay after Belmont assured us that they would stay in the ASUN. Fast forward a couple of years, and Belmont was gone.

(05-10-2018 08:58 PM)Efan Wrote: Not taking the time to look up stats, but I think the SoCon blows the socks off the OVC in basketball. Overall, closer schools, arguably a notch better in football too, I prefer the SoCon.

The last couple of years the SoCon has been better than the OVC. But remember the Atlantic Sun was better than the SoCon when we were there. Before we moved, the SoCon and OVC were essentially the same with the OVC being a little better. If us and UTC went to the OVC, it would be a crushing blow to the SoCon and significantly improve the OVC.

Both 1 bid basketball leagues with no chance for an at large no matter what. OVC has better television exposure and I like their teams and leadership much better than the SoCon. I thought it was an obvious choice for us to move to the OVC when we left the Atlantic Sun, but I think Scott Carter and the old donors like the SoCon better.

(05-10-2018 05:19 PM)ETSUfan1 Wrote: Remember, ETSU, Belmont, and Lipscomb were poised to join the OVC a few years ago, but the idiots in charge decided to stay after Belmont assured us that they would stay in the ASUN. Fast forward a couple of years, and Belmont was gone.

(05-10-2018 08:58 PM)Efan Wrote: Not taking the time to look up stats, but I think the SoCon blows the socks off the OVC in basketball. Overall, closer schools, arguably a notch better in football too, I prefer the SoCon.

At this juncture— yes, the SoCon. This “small privates” argument is not that big of a deal anymore. There are some very good privates in the SoCon. I believe that ETSU fans are more in tune with playing Furman, Wofford, etc., plus UTC, Western, UNCG than anybody in the current OVC, including Belmont. Is it possible to jack the SoCon up a notch or two? As for ETSU, there’s little justification to aspire for the Sun Belt, for example — with relation to the money involved. No matter where ETSU is, as all know, the bottom line is WINNING to keep them interested and coming. The ideal outcome down the road would be a compact regional universities conference, obviously. But, until then, what realistic choice does ETSU have except the SoCon?

(05-10-2018 08:58 PM)Efan Wrote: Not taking the time to look up stats, but I think the SoCon blows the socks off the OVC in basketball. Overall, closer schools, arguably a notch better in football too, I prefer the SoCon.

At this juncture— yes, the SoCon. This “small privates” argument is not that big of a deal anymore. There are some very good privates in the SoCon. I believe that ETSU fans are more in tune with playing Furman, Wofford, etc., plus UTC, Western, UNCG than anybody in the current OVC, including Belmont. Is it possible to jack the SoCon up a notch or two? As for ETSU, there’s little justification to aspire for the Sun Belt, for example — with relation to the money involved. No matter where ETSU is, as all know, the bottom line is WINNING to keep them interested and coming. The ideal outcome down the road would be a compact regional universities conference, obviously. But, until then, what realistic choice does ETSU have except the SoCon?

The Socon started to have a better RPI than the OVC right at the time we got back in. As etsubuc said, if us and UTC left for the OVC then the RPI's probably flip flop.

I think ETSU's best course of action is to stay in the socon right now. Thats not to say its perfect. We are playing a lot of schools who dont have very many fans.

It comes down to this: who do you see being ETSU's peers in the future; App State/Marshall/MTSU or Wofford/Mercer/Furman?