Saturday, June 10, 2017

I'm sure by now we're all aware of the mood music which appears (I only say appears) intended to prepare the ground for an announcement by Nicola Sturgeon over the coming days that might water down or reverse the commitment to an independence referendum at the end of the Brexit process. As that announcement has not yet been made, though, we appear to be in a period of "speak now or forever hold your peace", so that's what I'm going to do. Personally, I believe it would be a historic error for the SNP to turn its back on a referendum during the period of the current Holyrood parliament. Here are the reasons -

1) You can't march people to the top of the hill, march them straight back down again, and expect that not to have consequences. It's only three months since Nicola Sturgeon announced a firm plan for an independence referendum, and indeed launched a fundraising drive which if memory serves me right collected a six-figure sum. We were told that the mandate for a referendum had already been secured, and that winning a majority of Scottish seats at the general election (30 or more) would reinforce that mandate even further. That was duly achieved on Thursday. If the whole thing is now shelved for no easily defensible reason, many people who contributed (either financially, or by registering their support on the website, or even by voting SNP on Thursday) will feel betrayed. Not everyone, by any means - others will always trust the leadership to make decisions that eventually get Scotland to the intended destination. But a great many will turn their backs on the SNP, and either give up on the independence movement altogether, or seek an alternative party/organisation (however fringe) that retains the commitment to a referendum within the intended timescale. They'll think to themselves : "if we can't trust the SNP to stick to their principles when they win an election, how can we trust them to see it through when the going really gets tough?" It's all very well clinging to the dubious hope that ditching a referendum might stop scaring the horses in rural Aberdeenshire, but if you lose a fair bit of your most passionate support base in the process, it's doubtful whether that constitutes progress.

2) It would be democratically indefensible to capitulate to the argument that the Scottish Tories "won" this election on a pledge to stop a referendum, and that the SNP "lost" the election on the pledge to hold a referendum. I'm sure I don't need to reiterate the numbers, but the SNP won roughly 60% of the seats in Scotland, and the Tories took fewer than one-quarter. What I would have expected the leadership to say is something along the lines of : "We've suffered some very painful losses tonight and ended up with a mandate that is smaller than the huge one we secured in 2015, but nevertheless it is still a very, very clear mandate. In many ways it's a more valuable mandate than our previous one because it was hard-won in the full public knowledge that we were planning a referendum. It must now be fully respected." Instead, they gave a degree of comfort to the argument of the Tories and other unionist parties that Scotland was somehow voting against a referendum by not giving the SNP a big enough majority - effectively arguing that anti-referendum votes and seats carry far more weight than pro-independence votes and seats. That attitude voluntarily surrenders the victory won and converts it into a defeat. Again, I can't think of a quicker way of alienating your core support than to tell them that even if they vote for a manifesto in good faith and help deliver a thumping win, it still counts for absolutely nothing.

I'm also very troubled that Nicola Sturgeon reportedly agreed that there was some "force" to the argument that unionist parties had outpolled the SNP on the popular vote. It is completely unrealistic to expect a single party to routinely receive 50% of the vote - it very rarely happens in any established democracy (South Africa being an obvious exception). In Westminster elections, Scotland effectively reverts to being a four-party system in which three parties are anti-independence and only one is pro-independence. It's obvious that in most cases the most popular party will be outpolled by the combined votes for the other three - that's completely normal.

3) The problem in this election campaign has been wrongly diagnosed. What seems to be behind the talk of a change in policy is the discovery that some people on the doorstep were 'scunnered' by the plan for another referendum. But that's to fall into the Ed Miliband trap of thinking that just removing policies that annoy certain people will somehow help you win more votes. You actually have to give people something positive to vote for - or, if you're Ruth Davidson, give them a really scary bogey-man to vote against. After the disappointing result in the local elections, I suggested that the SNP needed to urgently fire up the pro-independence vote in the same way that the Tories (and to a lesser extent Labour and the Lib Dems) had already fired up the anti-independence vote. There was no point in playing it safe - the genie was out of the bottle, the election was going to be dominated by the constitution whether we liked it or not, so we might as well make a virtue out of necessity. Instead, the opposite was done, and we ended up with a campaign that struck me as being remarkably similar to the campaign in 2005 that won only six seats - lots of talk of "strong voices standing up for Scotland", but no convincing explanation of what that would actually achieve in concrete terms. One of the few times I found myself nodding along to a BBC attack line against the SNP was when Glenn Campbell asked Nicola Sturgeon what a large SNP contingent at Westminster could possibly achieve in a parliament with a large Tory majority, given their relative powerlessness in a parliament over the last couple of years that had a small Tory majority. Her response was to point to examples of the influence they've had - which almost seemed to be saying "vote SNP for more of the same at Westminster". That was scarcely likely to inspire anyone.

2015 was an unusual case because everyone thought they knew that the SNP were going to hold the balance of power, so it wasn't implausible to talk about making a real difference at Westminster. But this time, ironically, hardly anyone believed we were heading for a hung parliament, so the "strong voices" pitch was never likely to resonate.

4) Ditching the referendum will not actually make the "referendum problem" go away. If anyone thinks Ruth Davidson is ever going to stop running on the "stop a referendum" line, they are deluding themselves. You could see it as soon as Nicola Sturgeon said she would "reflect" on the election result - Davidson immediately said that wasn't enough, and that the referendum had to be taken off the table completely. If it actually is taken off the table completely, Davidson will then say that still isn't enough, because until the SNP drop their support for independence altogether, that means they are still secretly planning to hold a referendum, and people have to vote Tory to stop the secret plans for a referendum. This will literally never end. You can't beat Davidson by appeasing her. It just won't work.

5) Abandoning the referendum would be a betrayal of EU citizens who have put their faith in the SNP and the wider Yes movement to preserve their current status in Scotland. Holding an indyref at the end of the Brexit process is first and foremost not a strategic call, it's a moral imperative. It's the only way to give the people of Scotland (whatever their country of origin) an opportunity to retain their right to free movement and remain within the single market. That basic principle has not changed in the slightest. For all the wild talk about how the loss of the Tory majority might lead to a watering down of the plans for Hard Brexit, the simple fact is that both the Conservatives and the Labour party are opposed to the continuation of free movement, so remaining within the single market as part of the UK still appears to be a complete non-starter.

6) If the SNP put independence on the backburner specifically to concentrate on the "day-job" (again, framing it in that way is a capitulation to the Tories' attack lines), they're putting all their eggs in the basket of being viewed as more competent than their opponents for an indefinite period. That would seem to be wildly optimistic given what we know about the inevitable changing of the seasons in politics. If by 2021 Scottish Labour get their act together and put forward a radical Corbynite manifesto for Holyrood, and if the Tories are still banging on about "stopping Nicola Sturgeon's secret plans for a referendum", and if the SNP have parked their USP and are instead pitching for votes as the most competent managers after fourteen years in office, that would strike me as an obvious recipe for a unionist majority to be elected. It wouldn't necessarily lead to Davidson or Dugdale as First Minister, but the Sturgeon government would be dramatically weakened. The SNP would then presumably go off and "reflect" on the setback - and perhaps reach precisely the wrong conclusions all over again.

209 comments:

I would be one of those others.I joined the party purely for Independence. I became a councillor -the actual definition of a thankless job - for Independence. Christ, I even stood up in front of a packed Orange Lodge and argued with their great high poobah that the union was destroying Scotland and what we needed was Independence.So if this watering-down is the actual shit, I'm outta here...

The voting fatigue argument is a self fulfilling prophecy though. Asking people to go to a voting station once every year or so is hardly asking for much. It is as mundane as going to a dentist, for a GP appointment at the local health centre. Why do we act like such crybabies over asking people to vote once in a year or so?

Doesn't matter what the politically active say, voter fatigue simply does not apply to us but activist fatigue sure as hell does. Time for at least the semblance of a break guys and gals, let's be real.

We also don't have a bottomless money pit of legally dubious 'black'funding to rely on. Nor would we want one since sooner or later that dodgy cashflow is going to get traced and then we'll see the BritNats panic.

There is some merit to the idea that it's simple association because the Brexit referendum has caused nothing but utter chaos ever since. You could reflect that in a change of tone and phrasing. It wouldn't change that much though since it's the BritNats who are going to keep banging on relentlessly about the next Indyref since it wins them votes and gets them kudos and huge coverage from the westminster bubble and unionist media every single time.

They won't stop banging on about it for now BUT there is unquestionably going to come a time when, far from being another Brexit like referendum, the next Indyref it is going to take an altogether different appearance in an ever increasing number of the scottish public's mind.

When the Brexit catastrophe start to implode with full force you will find Dugdale and Davidson far less voluable and chatty about the next Indyref as it will have transformed from an inconvenience to a lifeboat in a great many waverers minds.

I've only & always voted SNP in every election since I was old enough to vote but initially only because they were campaigning for independence. Now I'm quite happy to vote for them due to their competence & policies in government as well but, first & always foremost, is their support for independence. If they water that down at all I'm gone.

I've been saying for a while now that the SNP appear to be too concerned with being the government of Scotland rather than securing an independent Scotland to govern. I would accept this approach during a Holyrood campaign but at Westminster their only purpose should be to secure independence & not some airy fairy "speak up for Scotland" bollocks.

Surely this would be a huge mistake. So many people, including me, joined the SNP as a result of the referendum result in 2014. I want what they were promising then, they have to find that fight again and get on with it. No more My Nice Guy, come out and state that it is happening and explain the reasons why. The country is in the shitter because of the tories, how many reasons do you need?

Absolutely agree. The SNP won office on a mandate of another indyref2 if Brexit was to occur. They won Westminster and Council elections and just recently the surprise election by Theresa May. (Now 7 elections in a row in fact.) The Scottish Parliament has already voted on an indyref. The Scottish people must be given a choice when the Brexit deal is known.

I don't think this will happen for the exact reasons you put forward. I'm certain a lot of the noise is just that - noise. I can't count the number of times "sources" have claimed that Nicola will "definitely" kick a referendum into the long grass over the years. This is no different.

Having said that, I can't agree with this enough:

After the disappointing result in the local elections, I suggested that the SNP needed to urgently fire up the pro-independence vote in the same way that the Tories (and to a lesser extent Labour and the Lib Dems) had already fired up the anti-independence vote. There was no point in playing it safe - the genie was out of the bottle, the election was going to be dominated by the constitution whether we liked it or not, so we might as well make a virtue out of necessity.

The "don't frighten the horses" approach doesn't work in a climate where the horses are already terrified. We need to be strong and inspiring in the way we used to be.

Also, this "the only people obsessed with independence are the Unionist parties" meme needs to die a death. If I'm pro-independence, how am I supposed to be galvanised to support a party *whose entire existence is about independence* that they're NOT "obsessed"?

I expect the Greens to be obsessed about the environment. I expect Labour to be obsessed with labour. I expect the Tories to be obsessed with wealth. And I expect the SNP to be obsessed with independence. It should not be controversial to say otherwise!

I just can't see them taking the IndyRef off the table. They just can't - even if when it comes around it looks as though we will lose again. I have been a member for many years, but I would certainly, and with regret, leave the party. It WOULD be the ultimate betrayal. Which is why I can't see it happening.

Glade you said it, I know a lot of people might disagree with me on this but the referendum sernaro is a problem, back when the SNP got it's fist majority in the Scottish Parliament l assumed that was it, unilateral independence is the way for me but you would need a different party for that, and it would be only worth doing at a Scottish Parliament level, the thing is you would have to have a definite format a plan of action like the 1945 government, things like a currency. We just had 50 MPs, in the 70s that was the mandate for independence, the gradualists have squandered the last decade it feels.

Agree with this. There is a mandate for another referendum in this Holyrood term. But the EU / EEA issue needs to be treated separately - as another question or separate vote where it doesn't split indy support.

It was inevitable that seats would be lost in rural areas, and Corbyn policies were always likely to attract back some of the traditional labour vote. Naively in my opinion, as it's still better to have SNP MPs holding the balance of power at Westminster. Voting for Labour policies on demand, yet with the ability to promote Scottish interests or push for more powers.. Not just get whipped into line. But that's a more complicated message to get across easily.

From what I can see, not defending independence failed to inspire many YES voters from 2014 to come out and vote on a rainy day. 37% is poor.We even heard SNP politicians say... "It's the Tories obsessed with independence. Not us". Almost as if they were embarrassed by it.

At the very least, the principle of a second referendum should have been robustly defended. Even No voters can respect it is a credible option in completely different circumstances. Imo, We needed a hard hitting, attacking campaign accusing arrogant May of treating Scotland like a colony.

Removing the option of another democratic referendum hands the Tories the ability to screw Scotland completely in any Brexit deal, even removing powers from Holyrood.

I agree . It would be a mistake of epic proportions not to seek to proceed with an Independence Referendum.It is the raison d'etre of the SNP . It is still supported by approximately 50% of the Scottish public -the job is build support-not run away. If they are daft enough to back off -the SNP will soon have a new leader .

Reverse policy on Indy and an Indy ref, absolutely not,. I'll be outta here and even "join" commonspace, perish the thought! *though their commentary on the election was good on TV

But put it on the backburner till, say, after the summer recess, absolutely, and Sturgeon should stand up in Holyrood and say that she's not even going to answer questions on it or give an opinion till after August. That'll take the pressure off.

If the SNP ever actually abandoned Indy as a policy, they'd get about the same number of votes as the Loony Left Pary - or the guys with the funny outifts in Maidenhead.

Agree with James. Also, in my view, it was a big error having Nicola at the debates rather than Angus. (I know he was at 1) There would have been some initial squawking about it, but a couple of good performances by Angus would have shut them up.

He would have had a much better chance of moving the debate onto GE issues, e.g. by using his WM attack lines on May and, where relevant, on Corbyn and Murray.

He would have attached Mundell, and by proxy Davidson, on the cash he wanted to withhold.

And much more besides, including the reveal of Kezia supporting Indyref2 just after Brexit. (Nicola told me in confidence .... I don't normally break confidencies but .... Fill in the blanks)

Perhaps the problem with the 125k membership is that they - we - are treated as leaflet fodder with no opinions, no other ways we can help out. You either leaflet with a leaflet perhaps you think is rubbish, or you don't. And meetings are all about who is going to leaflet what run. They're boring, and nothing to do with Indy.

But one thing you find out is that the branches aren;t even listend to by the ivory tower, they are just treated as candidate fodder. The SNP has become too much a party for returning politicians, not a party for discussion and ideas.

And yes, the leadership doesn;t even bother acknowledging emails with idea, let alone giving them consideration and a reply. I just gave up completely, and it was only a handful of emails, I didn't pester them.

Even Branch resolutions for conferences are ignoed. The SNP ahs become very much top-down, and that is the opposite of what was its strength, a strength that encouraged full involvement.

The only reason I stay a member is to keep the numbers up and "frankly", I doubt I'll bother in September.

I'm struggling to post here. When I hit publish its vanishing. Having to do it twice.

I remember when I was at a Paul Kavanagh talk he said the SNP had taken over the Yes movement. I suggested that it was the other way round. But on reflection he is kind of right. We seem to be content to defer to the leadership of an old party because they know best. But do they?

All you out there reading who are in that 100k cohort, can you please do more than just send in your subs. Get along to the branch meetings this month and assert yourselves. We are not in this just to get SNP old guards and party apparatchiks cushy jobs. We joined because we love our country and we want to change it.

Now stop being passive, get in there. Get out there too. Get out and canvass for independence. Get out there and march. Get out there and put leaflets through letterboxes. Print your own. Get out there and knock doors.

What the SNP offers is access - however dodgy - to the media. It has an organisational structure. It has experience in telephone campaigns, marking up electoral registers, advertising, active campaigning. What we have is the undying love of our country.

So don't just sit there. Get involved. We are 100k They were 25k. Ffs assert the primacy of why you joined. We want Independence. We are 80% of the members. Don't just dream, make it happen.

We are not in this just to get SNP old guards and party apparatchiks cushy jobs.

That's telling them comrade. What about the workers! Exploited by the unfeeling elites and robber barons like Salmond and Mhairi Black into working unpaid for hour after hour delivering leaflets and chapping doors with barely a bowl of porridge as their reward. Filthy Neoliberal capitalist pigdogs.

No it really won't, the only way to take the pressure off is to have an actual fecking strategy and to start showing progress in areas like Education. Pinching Tory lite policies ain't going to cut it.

Mel, you are correct on that horse shit policy. God knows what got into NS's head there. Blairite bullshit. Time for real land reform and a serious think about an investment bank, I am sure there are other policy areas we can be much more imaginative in as well.

Well, I guess it's a fact that without a referendum you can't win independence, unless you fancy a coup or a minority UDI. So if you do want to get independence, you're gonna have to have a referendum at some point.

On the other hand...In 2014 we had a referendumIn 2015 we had a General ElectionIn 2016 we had another referendumIn 2017 we've had another General Election

And it's pretty likely that within 12 months we'll have yet ANOTHER General Election. And possibly even a Referendum on the final Brexit deal after that.

A certain section of the population have election fatigue, and they're starting to get annoyed with people constantly dragging them back into one campaign after another. You've all seen the vox pops with various members of the public on the TV about this.

This will make it a harder job. It's not particularly fair, but it's a fact. I do wonder if it played against Theresa May slightly as well, there was definitely an undercurrent of 'We don't need another vote, she's just doing this to get what she wants'.

The SNP should stick with the original plan for a referendum after Brexit takes place because only a deluded fool could imagine that leaving or rather more appropriately being thrown out of the EU will be anything other than a disaster particularly given the shambolic government now in office and propped up by sectarian unionists.Voters in Scotland will then see quite clearly that only independence can save Scotland from a ruinous and extremely hard Brexit.

Westminster is about to face the reality of brexit The tories are hanging by an orange thread. The so-called united kingdom is about as stable as a jelly with Parkinsons – and it’s going to get worse. The election was a reset to a more realistic situation in Scotland concerning Westminster MPs. Now, more than ever, is time to push forward the independence agenda. I’d love to see SNPMPs refusing to give the English oath when the Westminster parliament resumes.

Lots of random not-always-connected thoughts occur to me at the moment.

(1) Although on one hand I want to see the job finished with killing off the Conservative government, given how many seats the SNP narrowly held (4 of which with less than 100 majority plus other narrow wins) in a way I'm not sure I really want another UK GE any time soon, as there may be more SNP losses.

(2) I'd like to see a new indy poll to see if "Yes" is still sitting around 45% or thereabouts. Cross referenced with who voted who in the 2017 GE, how many independence supporters ran to Labour because (perhaps understandably on a high level without working through the full tactical voting implications) they thought a vote for Labour was more relevant/useful on the national level? What vote transfer did the SNP get from the Greens? Or has a chunk of indy support just melted away recently?

(3) My guess is that May, even a weakened, propped up May, (or indeed her replacement if/when it happens) is definitely not going to agree to a Section 30 order now (and I wonder if the DUP confidence and supply would be forthcoming if May did agree to a Section 30 anyway). She didn't really actually say no before, she just stalled and avoided the answer, because at that point there was the double whammy of the SNP being very strong (stronger than the official Labour opposition in many ways) and the indy polls being relatively close (and fear of backlash if she did say no). Without the election she probably wouldn't have been able to stall it forever. After the Scottish Parliament Easter recess Nicola Sturgeon was going to set out her next steps (e.g. reported in the news 15 Apr). Obviously we never found out what those steps were, because May announced the snap GE a few days later. I'm not sure we're ever going to find out now (or if it even matters), but I'm still really curious to know what those steps would have been.

However post-GE the SNP have lost too many seats for the narrative of that pressure to really continue. Yes, they still got a majority of the seats etc. but although losing 4 or 5 seats could have been laughed off in the context of a near perfect score in 2015, the 21 losses just makes it too easy to say no, I'm afraid. The mandate is there to ask, sure, but the political reality being the last result being the one that counts, I can see the UK government feeling that there's enough wiggle room now to simply refuse. I'd love that not to be the case, as an SNP and Yes voter desperate for indyref2, but I can't pretend to myself that election result in and of itself keeps the pressure heavily on. The pressure is still there to some extent, but it's been slackened a bit.

So the Scottish Parliament vote might be moot anyway. We'd be back to "so what's the alternative/next move?" from above. And what are those options? Is anyone confident that a snap Holyrood election would go very well for the SNP at the moment in terms of at least maintaining the same number of seats as currently? If the polls genuinely still showed indy near 45% then the "wildcat" referendum might be a goer, but that's the strategy of an emboldened SNP pre-GE, not a slightly chastened one post-GE. Keep? the head down and waiting to see if either Brexit goes disastrously and public opinion moves again, or if the new Tory government falls and then trying to leverage influence with a Corbyn minority government, or if there's another GE and prepping for it differently. But it'd hard to see at the moment how the SNPcan take the initiative, rather than react on the back foot.

Overall, feeling a bit despondent to be honest. Hoping that others can see a better way through it all than I can!

Whatever calculation the Tories might make, there are risks attached to a flat refusal. One of the many advantages of the SNP maintaining their current position is that it gives May the chance to overplay her hand.

By the way, as far as a snap Holyrood election to double as an independence mandate is concerned, I'm not necessarily advocating that, but as the campaign would be so radically different from the one we just had, it would be foolish to jump to any conclusions about how it would play out. For starters, Yes supporters who voted for Corbyn on Thursday would be presented with a much starker choice.

zero chance of a snap Holyrood poll.The DUP deal is inherently unstable, we are heading for another GE, the one more labour heave argument will be compelling for many.The argument now is for a strategy and campaign offer for that GE, otherwise, Indyref2 will be something my grandchildren will be campaigning for,

"Whatever calculation the Tories might make, there are risks attached to a flat refusal."

I don't disagree, I just think those risks may suddenly look a lot more manageable than they did a couple of months ago.

For what it's worth, I think the FM should continue to press the case for an independence referendum and agree that rolling back from that position in any way would be disastrous. But I don't expect there to be much joy that way, so what's the alternative, and if there are alternatives, do we believe the SNP will feel bold enough to take them now?

"By the way, as far as a snap Holyrood election to double as an independence mandate is concerned, I'm not necessarily advocating that, but as the campaign would be so radically different"

I'd like to think it would be radically different. But the GE campaign in Scotland continually boiled down to "no second indyref" and attacking the SNP on devolved matters, so in many respects I'm not convinced it would actually be that different.

I certainly struggle to see how the SNP would increase its seats, which would mean, a bit like May, winning the election (in the sense you still form the government) whilst simultaneously weakening your hand (fewer seats/lead).

Even if it does happen, I wasn't suggesting it was going to be next week. But what the Survation poll does show is that it's very unlikely a Tory minority government is going to risk another snap election unless they're literally forced into it. That means the deal with the DUP would have to completely fail, because the Tories and the DUP between them do have the numbers to spin this out for years - possibly even the full five-year term, depending on how many by-election defeats there are.

This is the perfect time to make a big deal out of the fact that the Scottish Government is now triple-mandated for Indyref#02 - 2xGE + 1xCouncil (yes yes, I know that the councils don't really count, but Kez and Ruth and the other one were most insistent that they should). So, make a big deal about being triple-mandated, but also be relentlessly specific about the dates for both Brexit and the Indy vote. It doesn't matter that the Scottish Government has no control over the dates. It forces the other sides (UK and EU) into confirming/correcting and puts some pressure back onto them. There'll be a bit less wriggle room to make it up as they go along. Plus it gives the Scottish Government the opportunity to fiendishly hound Theresa over not knowing what day it is.

Whilst I understand people may be reluctant to have another "vote" if we are to believe SNP indyref2 is required due to Brexit being so damaging for Scotland that it wasn't right for a politician to decide to accept it or not. What's changed ?

Either Nicola was using Brexit as an excuse, as claimed by the unionist parties, or she is prepared to allow Brexit to be foisted on Scotland to further the independence cause. Either option would, for me, be unacceptable. She had cast the die and must now run with it.

I joined on 19 Sept 2014 brokenhearted for my kids' future and my EU husband's potential rights if there was a Brexit referendum, but I will leave if this catastrophic mistake is made, and I will leave not just brokenhearted for an opportunity missed but angry for a colossal misjudgment.

I've supported independence ever since I can remember and I remember when we had NO MP,s and was there when we got one.I've been a member for a number of years now,although I joined and moved house and forgot to renew membership for a few years but still voted SNP never voted any other party but remembered eventually and did renew that was a good number of years ago though I cant give up my dream and my hopes and will never forget my "subs" again.

Having listened to the DUP leader on the radio yesterday extolling the virtues of the Union for all, I suspect that one of the demands from the DUP to the Tories will have been to promise not to "grant" Scotland another independence referendum. This would be easy for May to agree to, though it will be kept secret for decades, if ever made known.

The unionists in Northern Ireland are afraid of Scottish independence because of the crushing of the very concept of a United Kingdom that would entail.

Maybe a such a deal between the Tories and the DUP would be made to refuse a Section 30 order for an independence referendum. However I would imagine that such a refusal would drive independence support up and up.

Theresa May - as has been shown with her snap GE failure - has been known to make crazy decisions though.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

I have never in my life joined a political party. But if Sturgeon rows back from IndyRef2 I will join either the Greens or RISE AND put myself forward for election and argue myself blue that the SNP are the WRONG vehicle to achieve independence with.

I did my campaigning last time with RIC. I and others noted how our contribution, we delivered the estates, was airbrushed out of the SNP's potted history of the referendum. Last time I do any favours for the official Yes campaign like last time too if we eventually do go again, too late and out of the EU, hoping for re-entry (all the arguments from last time being reheated).

IF a pre-Brexit referendum with Europe going all 'come hither' and being supportive and holding the door open for us doesn't attract I don't know what will. Last time we had Barrosso batting for Westminster and utterly refusing to talk to us. This time they are talking and being very, very nice to us. We are WANTED. It would frankly be very, very fucking rude not to try.

Agree with most of that muscleguy, but to say RIC delivered the estates is a bit of a stretch....on the day not enough of the estates turned out. Look at turnout in the estate areas, they are so downtrodden and apathetic they couldn't vote for change.

Unless there are defined and attainable benefits of independence laid out that people would believe in and wish to aspire to its just "Jam tomorrow" like any tuppence haepenny unionist promise.Tell people the purpose and benefits of independence and give an outline of Scotland's potential instead of fending off MSM and UK Establishment bile all the time.Go back to JFK in May 1961 to get the general idea of giving a nation purpose.Let this disastrous election for the Tories kick start the SNP out of their drift and comfort zone or they will be dancing to a flute band next.

Certainly, the SNP should not drop the idea of indyref2, but we can restate the commitment to indy without gifting the unionists talk of plans for a referendum. We know that 'a week is along time on politics' and there is going to be ample scope over many weeks for WM government to look incompetent and foolish. We wait until we have something to act on re Brexit,

The Nat sis need to come into the real world and stop their 1984 attitude of stifling any discussion and critisism. Look how well Labour did inspite of the attacks from the Nat sis and right wing media. Your fash ex leader Kim Jung was sussed by the punters.

I'm about as confused about GWC2 as GWC2 is about stuff generally - complaining about a right-wing media yet spouting extreme right-wing language, and all the while supporting Labour, for heavens sake. That's a lot of conflicting signals to be coming out of one fellow. I can only hope that his confusion doesn't extend to his orientation (whatever it may actually be I'm picturing a hairy man in a bunny rabbit onesie hopping round Asda looking for other hairy men in onesies, for some reason). Because if so he could be in for a rough ride with the anti-gay DUP onboard, perhaps literally. They'll batter his ring like a fritter. Although he might like it. Who knows.

i think that ur missing the fact 16 n 17yr olds never got to vote in this election,neither did eu nationals,also it was a westminster election which is usually a toss up between labour n tory so i reckon a fair chunk of would be indy supporters voted for labour for 2 reasons,they liked corbyns manifesto & also they really thought that labour could win an overall majority (or have a rainbow coalition if torys never got enough seats). y iss nobody mentioning these points??

The SNP must continue to pursue independence and with renewed vigour. To do otherwise not only betrays the membership, it also poses the question 'what is the point of the SNP?'. I do think, however, that we need to take the question of Europe out of the equation. We've kind of trapped ourselves by aiming to resolve the question of independence before the UK Brexits, with the ambition that we (Scotland) remain in Europe without having to reapply. The reality is that it would be almost impossible to achieve this. So, much better to accept that we are out of Europe (for now) and decide on Independence at a time that it will be obvious that remaining tied to a UK that has gone down the Brexit tubes is a poor option. Then we can build the independence case on gaining access to the single market via EFTA which, by then, will clearly be a better option than Brexit Britain.

While agreeing with everything that James has said, unless I have misread his post he has missed the single most important point about GE17 and indyref#2, which is this:

The vote took place in the Scottish Parliament, was won, and has the force of democratic legitimacy. The GE result - good, bad or indifferent for the SNP, or anyone else - has feck-all to do with it.

Anyone who wants to campaign against independence has the right to do so. But anyone who campaigns against an independence referendum is denying the legitimacy of the vote and the authority of the Scottish Parliament.

The Unionists lost that vote and then campaigned against it - seeking to undermine the authority of the institution /in which they sit/. I found and find this breathtaking. You can't lose that vote and then say, 'No, sorry, doesn't count. Since we haven't won in the Scottish Parliament, we'll fight the same issue again elsewhere in a context where it doesn't belong.'

The fallacy of this argument was screamingly obvious and should have been firmly quashed by anyone interested in maintaining civil society, regardless of their political beliefs.

James makes perfectly sound points from the point of view of - I don't know what you'd call it. Expectations, campaigning, tasting the air, gauging our chances, ground fighting. So do many of the posters here. But the fundamental issue of reasserting the authority of Parliament - really, of democracy itself - is what's at stake here.

* * *

To run in some ways counter to everything I've just said, it's clear that normal is oot the windae. Tory-Labour collusion in Scotland but fierce competition in England; devolved issues being the sole topics of Westminster election debates; a rabidly anti-SNP media, heedless of any good the party does in government; the sheer insanity of calling an election in the first place, with precious time ticking away before Brexit...

In the midst of all this, the SNP tried to stand above it all, be the voice of reason, partly out of principle and partly out of necessity (the planning for indyref#2 is still in the works). It didn't work.

There is no normal, there are no rules, and there is no honour. Fine. They want to make it a gutter fight?

If an independence referendum at end of the brexit process, is taken off the table by snp, then I will no longer be prepared to spend any more days getting drenched knocking on doors to help secure an snp victory, in any future elections.

It would be a slap in the face for snp activists to run scared and as James says stregthen Ruth Davidson.

We would be a laughing stock in Europe if we backed off on indyref2 now. There is massive amounts of goodwill and sympathy for Scotland's plight. All that will melt away and it will be a cold day in hell before the SNP or Scottish independence are ever taken seriously again in Europe. Not to mention what it would do to independence support within Scotland.

Sturgeon herself would be calling time on her own career and the balloon that is Ruth Davidson would be inflated to mythical proportions by out masters at the BBC.

Sturgeon came flying out of the blocks in the aftermath of the Brexit vote, and it looked like we had a dynamic, visionary leader of the independence movement who had seized the historic opportunity. But much of that momentum has been squandered by timidity and equivocation.

ShezJune's comment is apposite:

"Anyone who campaigns against an independence referendum is denying the legitimacy of the vote and the authority of the Scottish Parliament."

That and the 'triple-mandate' is the arguement. It cannot be denied, so keep hammering it home. Set the agenda rather than let it be set for you.

The SNP are justifiably proud of their record in government. All things considered they have done remarkably well. But they now have to more agressively assert that things will go backwards without independence.

It is time for a complete re-think of the way the SNP tackle the media. They constantly allow the BBC/Davidson show to have it all their own way. As James mentioned, they have to creatively turn the tables on these debates, rather than reacting to their attacks. Disrupt the BBC parallel universe rather than collaborate with it and legitimise it.

There is more than a hint of the cringe about how Sturgeon and some of the other SNP seniors handle the media. They need to take a leaf out of Salmond's book. Independence cannot be won by stealth.

I agree. Basically, we have to put up or shut up. I'm Yes first and an SNP member second. I joined around 8 years ago because I thought we finally stood a chance and that the SNP was the vehicle for that. Let's fight an honest battle!

I can agree with James on this we won the indref2 choice if you think it straight,the Unionist parties put the question and fought the election on the basis that nobody wanted another referendum well they lost. The arithmetic is simple,35 from 59 = 24 and thus 35 is the winning amount,the people want no NEED a second referendum that is what was voted for for the sake of the people we must fight on.

The SNP got their referendum mandate last year. This week's result changes nothing in that regard. It would be an astonishing act of cowardice to drop the idea of a referendum on the basis that the Tories have become a single-issue party in Scotland and then lost the election.

The SNP have to make it plain and clear, that The Scottish National Party is a party for Independence and that is their first and foremost position and that they will always seek to achieve Independence and that once in a life time doesn't come into it. Its time to be honest that's how we will win support for Independence. The unionist party are now making it loud and clear that they are parties for Scotland to remain in the UK, there should not be in the back of anyone mind will there be another referendum, if you vote SNP that's what to expect and it also quashes the Idea of anyone posing the question of another referendum its clear that's what voting the SNP means.

Why is the good Rev talking about direct SNP -> ruthdavidsonfatnaziparty transfers of votes in his analysis of the election?

Turnout was down compared to the post referendum bounce in 2015. Sectarian bigot turnout was up. Fraudulent postal votes were up. Votes by dead people, holiday home owners, children of retired english far right pricks, army personnel. All up.

Turnout by Yes voters was down.

The actual switch by real voters moving from SNP to the Ruth is a fat Nazi bitch party was tiny.

But every media outlet, including some that are supposed to be on, "our," side are flogging the lie for all they're worth. Fake news and state propaganda. Must be nice to live in an actual democracy and not a terrorist state.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

For the people who are saying this is all media bollocks we have quotes from people like Margo Biagi, ex SNP MSP, saying that the SNP should drop an independence referendum. It is out in the open now. It is fantasy to suggest that James and others have made this up. The SNP have made major errors in the last two main elections. Any momentum from the referendum and 2015 has now been lost, and some in the party want to take away our only protection from Brexit. Sturgeon and company must stop trying to do it all, give elected reps and members a real say in policy, and build up the party infrastructure in terms of policy making and development. Completely sick of this top down shit. Media/PR has gone to shit since Kevin Pringle left as well. No media rebuttal unit, no think tank either, despite it being glaringly obvious of their need.

From the outset I viewed the Holyrood independence vote as a contingency against a hard Brexit. The only thing that has changed since that vote is May's crash and burn and suddenly a lot more nuanced talk of what Brexit is from Davidson, Mundell, Davis and of course the DUP who want a soft border.

Last week's vote has a massive impact on Westminster and a lot of the Tory austerity policies may well be dead in the water too. The DUP are to the extreme right on social conservatism but pretty much the centre on economic conservatism.

The SNP and Green position should remain unchanged. Argue for remaining in the single market and retain the indy vote as Scotland's escape shuttle. It isn't actually on the table at the moment but it is on the sideboard awaiting delivery to the table should that course be required and that is where it should stay until we see the colour of Brexit and where the UK is heading. In the meantime there will be 4 years of SNP government to come. The opposition might want to consider that it is they that are not keeping an eye on the day job not the SNP.

The handful of rape-cause Ruth's bigot MPs won't make any real difference to politics in scotland other than to embarrass the whole country almost as much as your own 'leader' in westminster and tory party are doing right now.

Haven't you noticed the tories are a pathetic laughing stock yet again?

Turn on a TV, open a paper, switch on the internet. Everyone is either laughing at or completely repulsed by their total and complete incompetence.

We came back from the first Indyref stronger than ever and we'll comeback from this the same way. You can't stop the inevitable and Independence is inevitable.

The age Demographics are crystal clear.

Time is on our side and always has been.

Your long years of humiliating prostration at westminster's feet have been for nothing. tory brexit will eat you up and spit you out and you will have nobody to blame but yourself.

Actually, those Scottish Tories have considerably more power than the Westminster SNP.Theresa May needs those Scottish Tories every singe time she has a vote, or she loses. She simply cannot afford to alienate them.

If the SNP vote against, it does nothing. The Tories and DUP have a majority regardless. But if the Scots Tories choose to withdraw support? Oh dearie me.

The SNP slogan was 'Stronger for Scotland', yet by complete accident it's the Scots Tories who have the strongest hand in Westminster. Funny old world.

It is called democracy ya mug something you Nat sis have yet to grasp.You got 36.9% of the vote. 63.1%. Voted for the Unioist parties. It was good to see Salmond, Tasmina and the thing from Rutherglen getting the order of the boot. Did like Nicholson seemed a decent sensible pragmatic bloke.

you tories lost an ye lost big even hereIn fitba if ye win 10-1 last season an ye win 6-2 the next ye still humped them like we humped you tories

wee toryboy like you prolly disny know about fitba thocricket maer your style a take it? or dae ye jist like shovin an orange in yer mooth and takin a guid hidin like maist o they public school toryboys an MPs doon the parly? could well be mair your style fae aw yer greetin and gurnin

means any big chunk of MPs has powerno just the tory splittersshe has to put stuff on the table for everybody and no do nothing controversial or yer out and get all the blame for being utter crap and blamed for yet another daft election nobody wants

if she canny do it another tory arsecandle will pop up for a shot

ye'll be dangling powerless an strugglin in office and the rest will only cut the string when they're a' good and ready an when brexit has done it's worsebrexit clock's tickin and the longer it takes the worse it gets for everybody..yerselves the most

Corbyn's no jumpin in feet first an takin a' the blame for brexit fecks sake man..he's no totally gagahe'll wait and keep you tories danglin for years while the biggest damage is done and the panic gets crazy

Your on a hidin tae nothin and the public's no gonnae give two hoots whit tory they blame cause they'll blame them a'

even blamin your wee sleekit tory boss in scotlandaye..she'll get it just like the rest of the tories

busy takin the piss out the London dafties she istellin them she hates the WATP mob and the DUP bam squadaye hen..right ye are..yer own councillors are in the ludge

Rock and a hard place for Sturgeon. Continue with indy obsession and run the SNP into the ground. Abandon indy and lose momentum and pro indy voters - same result.

Also, Scottish Tories now have the UK government over a barrel due to the parliamentary arithmetic. If Theresa May or her successor issue a section 30 order, Ruth Davidson's MPs can collapse the government.

who's this bumfluff badger? does it seriously no ken they're still a' tories or is it jist a wee bit saft in the melon?

Tessy should put ye in the foreign office wi the rest a' the chinless wonders an jokerstotally readio rentalyer up to yer neck in the broon stuff ya daftie an yer cooncillors are singin about being up to their knees in blood

are ye gonnae put wee ruthie up fer the marches noo cos her new pals in the DUP are gonnae bend her ower a barrel if she so much as waves at them the wrong wayDUP aren'y that keen on wee ruthie's preferences in case yer new to the pals o' the paramilitaries mob

disn'y matter if she squeaks aboot it in public

she'll dea whit she's telt fae London and she'll vote the way she's teltalways has an always willshe didn't want any o' that autonomy stuff murdo was bangin oan aboot an noo she'll pay for that

Some are dafter than others,we won with 35 seats so logic should tell you O O logic maybe that is lost on you,but the unionist parties made it about indyref2 here and they lost we won for indyref2 unless even the simple arithmetic has you beat as well.

Also, if Sturgeon is to abandon indyref2 she will have to resign. You can't go hell for leather at something, have it backfire on you spectacularly, then go "whoopsies, my bad - we'll just forget the whole thing then". Her credibility will be gone.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

To be fair the current cabinet and current PM are going full-on Trump because they think the Cameroons are even bigger cowards than the Blairites. For the moment they are indeed correct.

DUP Davidson won't be sitting on any tanks any time soon for a start. Even if the BBC posed her on a Highland Cow eating a tin of shortbread while playing the bagpipes she'll have a wee bit of a problem with her base and her DUP chums if she goes anywhere near a saltire without a massive union jack to hide behind at the same time. The tories 'looking after scotlands best interests' will become as big a political cross to bear for DUP Davidson as 'we're all in this together' was for Cameron and Osborne. Count on it.

Nor will anyone take DUP Davidson seriously if she keeps trying to pretend she isn't a tory while most of the tory party are going to keep desperately pleading she come down south to 'save them from mummy Theresa.

She either makes a move to cement some kind of leadership chance down the line or she gets stuck with her orangemen councillors dutifully obeying orders while knowing that the tory vote in scotland was just maxed out and it won't get any better than this for her. Brexit is of course also barrelling towards her like a freight train.

The tory black hole of incompetence will swallow everyone and everything it touches. There won't be any rational deals. There won't be any competently managed Brexit. There will only be making it past tomorrow without the entire house of cards crumbling and making every tory in the country the fall guy for Cameron and mummy Theresa's Galactic levels of incompetence.

The speed the public will turn on them will make even Clegg look like an amiable much loved political figure in retrospect. And it's already starting.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

To be fair the current cabinet and current PM are going full-on Trump because they think the Cameroons are even bigger cowards than the Blairites. For the moment they are indeed correct.

DUP Davidson won't be sitting on any tanks any time soon for a start. Even if the BBC posed her on a Highland Cow eating a tin of shortbread while playing the bagpipes she'll have a wee bit of a problem with her base and her DUP chums if she goes anywhere near a saltire without a massive union jack to hide behind at the same time. The tories 'looking after scotlands best interests' will become as big a political cross to bear for DUP Davidson as 'we're all in this together' was for Cameron and Osborne. Count on it.

Nor will anyone take DUP Davidson seriously if she keeps trying to pretend she isn't a tory while most of the tory party are going to keep desperately pleading she come down south to 'save them from mummy Theresa.

She either makes a move to cement some kind of leadership chance down the line or she gets stuck with her orangemen councillors dutifully obeying orders while knowing that the tory vote in scotland was just maxed out and it won't get any better than this for her. Brexit is of course also barrelling towards her like a freight train.

The tory black hole of incompetence will swallow everyone and everything it touches. There won't be any rational deals. There won't be any competently managed Brexit. There will only be making it past tomorrow without the entire house of cards crumbling and making every tory in the country the fall guy for Cameron and mummy Theresa's Galactic levels of incompetence.

The speed the public will turn on them will make even Clegg look like an amiable much loved political figure in retrospect. And it's already starting.

Butt-hurt toryboys like you need to engage their brain before whining like a twat. The statement comes from analysing the voting evidence whereas your inane dribbling appears to come from having your head stuck up Theresa May and Trump's arse.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-great-stalemate/

"So in short: despite their seat gains, there’s no Labour surge in Scotland, no Lib Dem revival, and the Tories have probably just about hit their maximum but still only won a fifth of seats and just scraped into second place in vote share."

But of course having the most incompetent tory 'government' in modern politics spraying the public with their own sh*t as they meltdown in westminster is BOUND to change those voting prospects for the better, isn't it?

James. You write eloquently and, as ever , argue your case with great skill but one comment is I am afraid smuggled in and quite wrong.

You write: For all the wild talk about how the loss of the Tory majority might lead to a watering down of the plans for Hard Brexit, the simple fact is that both the Conservatives and the Labour party are opposed to the continuation of free movement, so remaining within the single market as part of the UK still appears to be a complete non-starter.

This is not a simple fact, indeed it is not a fact at all nor is it wild talk. Indeed every news bulletin casts further doubt upon it Everywhere you look hard Brexit is under huge pressure. 'No deal' is now off the table entirely. There is no way either the Scottish Tories or the DUP would wear it. The DUP could never stomach a hard border and are making this clear right now. The DUP leader and Ruth Davidson have already spoken out against a hard Brexit. Meanwhile the cabinet are making much the same case in return for their support. 'A complete non-starter'? You sound like Toby Young.

I am in fact very surprised to hear you deploy exactly the same argument as the extreme right wing of the Conservative party, namely how freedom of movement is not an option because it is in the manifestoes. Sorry lots of clauses are in the manfiestoes which are now in major doubt, triple lock, 'no deal is better than a bad deal' etc. And though Labour has paid lip service to the ending of freedom of movement (in Corbyn's case reluctantly) they always had the get out clause that economics must come first. It seemed pretty clear that the merest fig leaf from the EU would allow Labour to keep freedom of movement and quite right too. Most of their supporters want it.

So, though the Tory headbangers keep telling us that this hard Brexit is set in stone, it quite obviously is not And you shouldn't be joining their argument and calling the alternative view 'wild talk' no matter how much it helps your case.

You're being a touch slippery with language there. What I said was a non-starter was very specifically the prospect of staying in the single market. The evidence to support that view is overwhelming - watch Corbyn's interview on Marr, for example, in which there was no hint of the flexibility or reluctance you're suggesting.

A 'compromise' well short of staying in the single market may have been made more likely by this result, but that isn't enough.

How? There's no Scottish Conservative Party whip at Westminster, and if Ruth put her posturing into action by trying to impose one, she'd quickly learn a hard truth about where the allegiances of "her" MPs truly lie.

"It’s important to note that this wasn’t a reciprocal deal. We can’t find any seats where the Tory vote fell to the benefit of the Lib Dems. In all the seats the latter gained – East Dunbartonshire, Edinburgh West, and Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross – the Tory vote increased by several thousand, and in two the Lib Dem vote went down.

Lib Dem voters simply sacrificed themselves en masse for the Tories, while getting absolutely nothing (that we can find) in return. In just seven seats 53,000 Lib Dem votes (more than 50%) vanished from the 2015 tally while the Tories added 64,000."

I think you will find Nicola comes out with the opposite of what is being suggested here. I suspect she will call a referendum, when and how. Reclaim the narrative of Independence back from Ruth Davidson, and simply say, ' 'No more confusion, the referendum is now happening, i have an elected mandate to honour and the majority who voted to remain in Europe to represent. Heres your platform Ruth to argue your case against it, get on with it'. Stepping away from that commitment will simply be political suicide, there is is no other logical alternative now.

"the vast sums of money that were spent putting in Tory and Lib Dem candidates in SNP held seats needs to be flagged up. In unionist target seats we were faced by deluges of Tory or Lib Dem leaflets (not both) POSTED to every household.

The Lib Dems in particular have no money and virtually no members in Scotland but I received thirteen – yes thirteen – Lib Dem leaflets through the post and this was seen across the constituency. If this was the same in the other target seats – and I hear similar stories – there’s been a postal expenditure of over £100,000 in some of them. What we just faced was an expensive, London-funded campaign against Scotland."

https://wingsoverscotland.com/from-the-ground/

Always report electoral irregularities if they happen in your area because they are NOT above the Law.

If the unionists get away with what they did detailed above then we won't just be facing it yet again very soon - if the tories coalition of incompetence implodes - but for every single election after and the next Indyref.

There must be a robust response to these continued attempts to ignore the Law and buy election results or they will just keep doing it.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

You fash called it all wrong. You ignored the democratic wish of the Scottish people who voted to stay in the Union. You treated them like lepers. The Scottish Unionists now know you scum have a pathological hatred towards them just like Sinn Fein IRA hate the Irish loyalist community. You thought it was going to be easy. But as Jerry I have never been a member of the IRA said, we are not going away. Get it right up ye Nat si scum. Up yer kilts.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

Incredible that the Cameroons have now replaced the Blairites as THE most spineless, gutless and cowardly faction in politics.

All 'Mummy' Theresa's little public schoolboys gave her 3 standing ovations and promised they'd be very good boys indeed today as long she didn't leave them. Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray!

ROFL

Dear christ, the complete lack of dignity and self-respect those repulsive tory worms have. Screaming blue murder to the press about her then running whimpering to hide under 'Mummy' Theresa's skirt when it became abundantly clear every single one of them were just as incompetent and clueless about what to do next as she was.

Still, we now have an utterly incompetent Zombie PM surrounded by chinless wonder wimps too terrified to move against her and too scared to go to the electorate to look forward to.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

Aye well I can go on all night, so nat si present your evidence or withdraw your comment. I have given you a fair opportunity to present your evidence. You are lying and you know it. Also I have never pretended to be Labour so present your evidence on that!

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

The troll "GWC2" calls scottish people "jocks", made death threats on this blog while posing as a Yes supporter, advocates arming Leave campaigners, arbitrary deportations and public mutilations, claimed Jo Cox's husband was a fascist, uses racial, homophobic and ethnic slurs, pretends to be Labour (badly) while espousing far-right racist hate-speech, praises Theresa May and the tories and displays a perverted poisonous obsession with Scotland's First Minister.

Incredible that the Cameroons have now replaced the Blairites as THE most spineless, gutless and cowardly faction in politics.

All 'Mummy' Theresa's little public schoolboys gave her 3 standing ovations and promised they'd be very good boys indeed today as long she didn't leave them. Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray!

ROFL

Dear christ, the complete lack of dignity and self-respect those repulsive tory worms have. Screaming blue murder to the press about her then running whimpering to hide under 'Mummy' Theresa's skirt when it became abundantly clear every single one of them were just as incompetent and clueless about what to do next as she was.

Still, we now have an utterly incompetent Zombie PM surrounded by chinless wonder wimps too terrified to move against her and too scared to go to the electorate to look forward to.

It's looking like a delayed and soft brexit folks. Add to that the SNP's less than stellar performance last week and it's not looking good for Scottish independence.

There are reports tonight that Tory and Labour MPs are locked in talks over delivering a soft brexit. Will SNP MPs be involved in those talks? If they are then indyref2 becomes even more untenable.

"Cameron will have a few tricks up his sleeve to deploy in the last few days to put it in the back of the net for remain" - well, he didn't, but maybe the British people have done just that, late in extra time, sort of.....

It always amazes me how this country always seems to land on its feet. God's will?