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Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Not in the series mythology, since the slug is grouped along with them. Anyway, given that they would have had to work together in the past, when the Sannins were still together, their relationship couldn't have been as mortal enemies. And their enmity towards each other appeared to have come from the same event that Jiraiya and Orochimaru's enmity did.

Aside from Manda, name one other snake that was shown evil. The majority of snakes shown have been mindless fodder. Not only that, but if snakes were automatically evil, then neither Anko nor former Orochimaru would have employed them. After all, don't forget, Orochimaru wasn't always evil. So there's nothing suggesting that the Snake Sage is as evil as you seem to want him to be, especially since he looked pretty laid back from what we saw.

Orochimaru, Kabuto, Anko, and Sasuke's connection to snakes has nothing to do with "evil". Snakes are regularly attributed to "forbidden" knowledge and wisdom, which fits all all four characters, either because they know some sort of information (Orochimaru and Anko) or because they were on a quest to discover some information (Sasuke and Kabuto).

Does ibiki said that he seen orochimaru as a child? And he's not really some sort of human?

I'm not talking about orochimaru, kabuto, sasuke and anko. We're talking about the characteristics of the snakes in this manga. And the fact that kishi just said that the snake sage is the most evil sage. So what's the point in debating this fact?

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Doesn't change that Orochimaru was originally a good person. And we are talking about them, since the original argument was that snake being used by evil people made them evil too. If snakes were evil, then why would Orochimaru originally side with them and why would Anko still use them?

Kishi referred to Kabuto using Sage Mode as the most evil, not snake Sage Mode as a whole.

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Originally Posted by ninjabot

I expect the same thing, but I'd prefer it be explained away via his coming powerup. Unless they say somewhere "Your chakra has grown Sasuke", I'd be okay with that too. It's just Kishimoto tends to prefer being vague.

If Lord Madara could mantain Perfect Susano'o while alive and without Hashirama's cells, I don't doubt that Sasuke will reach that level too by the final battle. I don't think it will be commented on, because otherwise Kishi would make the reader focus on the fact:
did you see Naruto commenting on how the hell Kakashi could divide his chakra in half twice and then use Kamui 3 times ( when, against Sasuke, after 2, at full chakra capacity, couldn't even move) ?
He's vague because its infinitely more easier that way, make characters spam jutsus and then conveniently make them drop to the ground when everything's over.

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Doesn't change that Orochimaru was originally a good person. And we are talking about them, since the original argument was that snake being used by evil people made them evil too. If snakes were evil, then why would Orochimaru originally side with them and why would Anko still use them?

Kishi referred to Kabuto using Sage Mode as the most evil, not snake Sage Mode as a whole.

Actually, you don't understand the reasoning at all. Orochimaru as we know was a cute boy really genius from the start. Did he had snakes in his body when he was a kid? We don't know yet. Now, we see that he is evil, and I think it is because he has the snakes within him ( whether from the start or not). Note that Naruto did not know he had the fox when he was kid, and was having a regular life. Orochimaru could have had the same story - that is he did not know that he had the snakes until they activate someday, and he turn into ab evil guy. Why I am accusing the snakes?

Mythology aside, you should have noticed something from canon material. Juugo's clan power source is the same as where the snakes are. It turns out whenever Juugo get a power up, he becomes a serial killer. Why? Why is Juugo normal and kind in his human form, and then becomes a killer when his power is activated?

My answer is that the power is infused with a murdering intent. THe power from the snake land is a malevolent power, and we have seen even with the sound for, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Kabuto. It is true that Sasuke was able to master the heaven seal, but we noticed that wheneever the seal activated, Sasuke became a cold blood killer. Let me elaborate.

1. When Oro gave the seal to Sasuke freshly and Sasuke did not have control.

Sasuke not having control means that the consciousness that was working came from the seal. The force there was plain evil with a bloody intent, and breaking human bones without any feeling of love. Unlike toads sage mode that give you the feeling and emotions of everyone around you, the snake power draw your focus only on yourself, and give you an arrogant air.

2. Sasuke vs Naruto

Here, Sasuke has started to controll, but not quite yet. You can recall that he treated Naruto worse than before the seal activated. It was pure evil, and this was only a little chakra sealed in him.

These are the evidence that the power of the snake or from Ryuuchidou is infuse with evil, and unless Sasuke has a good intent to defeat the darkness in the power in the same way Naruto defeated his own darkness and the Kyuubi's, Sasuke will dive in darkness. And if you follow this argumentation, you will notice that if Sasuke drop the vengence and destroy his darkness, then he can turn the snake evilness into pure power he can use. If he does not, meaning he will become bent even more on vengeance, then he will be himself filled with hatred and the snake power will feed on that hatred to consume him.

In the case he renounce vengeance, there will be no Naruto vs Sasuke. In the other case, there will be also no Naruto vs Sasuke, but Naruto vs a Sasuke that has lost his own self. Therefore, I keep telling everyone who want Sasuke to fight Naruto that the only way this can happen is the latter - that is Sasuke will be lost in darkness and Naruto will fight to save him. This will be consistent with Kyuubi's warning when he said that Sasuke will live long enough to regret if he were to kill Naruto.

Note: Before you flame on me, read carefully my post. I always think there is no reason for Naruto to fight Sasuke unless Sasuke turn evil and lost his mind. Orochimaru will make this happen.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

If Lord Madara could mantain Perfect Susano'o while alive and without Hashirama's cells, I don't doubt that Sasuke will reach that level too by the final battle. I don't think it will be commented on, because otherwise Kishi would make the reader focus on the fact:

With no offense, we don't know if Madara could use perfect Susanoo. There is no evidence to back this claim. The only time he used it officially was when he had Hashimara's cell along with edo tensei power. Surely Madara said that only Hashimara could stop it. However, this statement cannot be taken has evidence that Madara has used it before.

Also Madara said that if Hashimara were to fight it, it would be necessary to redraw the map of the entire planet. This suggest even that Madara never used it because the greatest damage their fight could do was changing the valley of the end. In addition, when Madara talk about perfect Susanoo, it was more like it was his first time to see it. He said something on the line of "it is said that everyone who has seen this never survive." How could he say that if Hashimara had survive perfect Susanoo. How will he speak in a narrative way.

Finally, unless Kishi show it, there is no evidence that Madara could use the Jutsu he used after his revival except for regular Susanoo, genjutsu etc. A fair analysis would rather assume that only Hashimara's cell allowed him to activate Rinnegan, and fusion with Hashimara's body updgraded his EMS power.

This conclusion is even confirm by Kakshi's comment on Kyuubi upgrading his MS. One of the Zetsu also commented on the fact that Hashimara cell could allow Obito to unlock great power with his eyes.

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Doesn't change that Orochimaru was originally a good person. And we are talking about them, since the original argument was that snake being used by evil people made them evil too. If snakes were evil, then why would Orochimaru originally side with them and why would Anko still use them?

Kishi referred to Kabuto using Sage Mode as the most evil, not snake Sage Mode as a whole.

Orochimaru identifies with the "white snake"(the one he found by his parents graves) as it symbolized rebirth and immortality

"Keep Eating Shit For The Rest Of Your Life " - 愛憎のロクサーヌ- Roxanne of Love and Hate

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Originally Posted by so6pww

Actually, you don't understand the reasoning at all. Orochimaru as we know was a cute boy really genius from the start. Did he had snakes in his body when he was a kid? We don't know yet. Now, we see that he is evil, and I think it is because he has the snakes within him ( whether from the start or not). Note that Naruto did not know he had the fox when he was kid, and was having a regular life. Orochimaru could have had the same story - that is he did not know that he had the snakes until they activate someday, and he turn into ab evil guy.

Orochimaru having snakes in his body? He implanted them on his own. His body is a modified one through his own experiments. He didn't have snakes in his body. It's not related to the summoning contract.

Originally Posted by so6pww

My answer is that the power is infused with a murdering intent. THe power from the snake land is a malevolent power, and we have seen even with the sound for, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Kabuto. It is true that Sasuke was able to master the heaven seal, but we noticed that wheneever the seal activated, Sasuke became a cold blood killer. Let me elaborate.

1. When Oro gave the seal to Sasuke freshly and Sasuke did not have control.

Sasuke not having control means that the consciousness that was working came from the seal. The force there was plain evil with a bloody intent, and breaking human bones without any feeling of love. Unlike toads sage mode that give you the feeling and emotions of everyone around you, the snake power draw your focus only on yourself, and give you an arrogant air.

2. Sasuke vs Naruto

Here, Sasuke has started to controll, but not quite yet. You can recall that he treated Naruto worse than before the seal activated. It was pure evil, and this was only a little chakra sealed in him.

It's the cursed seal. It has got nothing to do with snake affinity. Those who received the cursed seal don't automatically receive such power. Anko and Sasuke are the only two with that affinity, and again, Anko is not evil.

Originally Posted by so6pww

Also Madara said that if Hashimara were to fight it, it would be necessary to redraw the map of the entire planet. This suggest even that Madara never used it because the greatest damage their fight could do was changing the valley of the end. In addition, when Madara talk about perfect Susanoo, it was more like it was his first time to see it. He said something on the line of "it is said that everyone who has seen this never survive." How could he say that if Hashimara had survive perfect Susanoo. How will he speak in a narrative way.

Finally, unless Kishi show it, there is no evidence that Madara could use the Jutsu he used after his revival except for regular Susanoo, genjutsu etc. A fair analysis would rather assume that only Hashimara's cell allowed him to activate Rinnegan, and fusion with Hashimara's body updgraded his EMS power.

They didn't change the valley of the end. They "created" it. There was no valley beforehand.
Anyway, if Madara could speak of it as "It is said that everyone who has seen this never survive", it must be because he used it before. It's likely to assume that he'd also use it when confronting his archrival, if he used it on someone else, too.
Not that this is related to the topic by any means, let's just pass.

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Originally Posted by so6pww

Actually, you don't understand the reasoning at all. Orochimaru as we know was a cute boy really genius from the start. Did he had snakes in his body when he was a kid? We don't know yet. Now, we see that he is evil, and I think it is because he has the snakes within him ( whether from the start or not). Note that Naruto did not know he had the fox when he was kid, and was having a regular life. Orochimaru could have had the same story - that is he did not know that he had the snakes until they activate someday, and he turn into ab evil guy. Why I am accusing the snakes?

First off, Orochimaru doesn't have "snakes in him". He transformed himself into a snake from his experimentation, but that happen well after he had become evil. Secondly, Orochimaru became evil because of his own fear of death.

Originally Posted by so6pww

Mythology aside, you should have noticed something from canon material. Juugo's clan power source is the same as where the snakes are. It turns out whenever Juugo get a power up, he becomes a serial killer. Why? Why is Juugo normal and kind in his human form, and then becomes a killer when his power is activated?

My answer is that the power is infused with a murdering intent. THe power from the snake land is a malevolent power, and we have seen even with the sound for, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Kabuto. It is true that Sasuke was able to master the heaven seal, but we noticed that wheneever the seal activated, Sasuke became a cold blood killer. Let me elaborate.

Except the "power source" that Juugo and his clan absorb is natural energy, same power source as Sage Mode. That's the reason Juugo and his clan went cray, due to constantly absorbing natural energy all the time. Nothing to do with snakes. And Sasuke didn't become a cold-blooded killer til after he had lost the CS and gained MS. He was actually relatively decent before the events at the summit.

Originally Posted by so6pww

1. When Oro gave the seal to Sasuke freshly and Sasuke did not have control.

Sasuke not having control means that the consciousness that was working came from the seal. The force there was plain evil with a bloody intent, and breaking human bones without any feeling of love. Unlike toads sage mode that give you the feeling and emotions of everyone around you, the snake power draw your focus only on yourself, and give you an arrogant air.

There's no "mysterious force". We specifically know the Cursed Seals are the way thy are because they contain a unique enzyme and Orochimaru's chakra within. Anko has the CS and she's not evil...

Originally Posted by so6pww

2. Sasuke vs Naruto

Here, Sasuke has started to controll, but not quite yet. You can recall that he treated Naruto worse than before the seal activated. It was pure evil, and this was only a little chakra sealed in him.

Noooo... Sasuke treated Naruto worst because of his own feelings of inferiority and the fact that not only could he not even touch Itachi, but he got slammed by another three days of tortures afterward. Before the events with Itachi, Sasuke was actually turning into a better person, even with the CS. He was willing to give up on his desire for revenge and had even been willing to give up his own life to ensure that Naruto and Sakura survived.

Originally Posted by so6pww

These are the evidence that the power of the snake or from Ryuuchidou is infuse with evil, and unless Sasuke has a good intent to defeat the darkness in the power in the same way Naruto defeated his own darkness and the Kyuubi's, Sasuke will dive in darkness. And if you follow this argumentation, you will notice that if Sasuke drop the vengence and destroy his darkness, then he can turn the snake evilness into pure power he can use. If he does not, meaning he will become bent even more on vengeance, then he will be himself filled with hatred and the snake power will feed on that hatred to consume him.

In the case he renounce vengeance, there will be no Naruto vs Sasuke. In the other case, there will be also no Naruto vs Sasuke, but Naruto vs a Sasuke that has lost his own self. Therefore, I keep telling everyone who want Sasuke to fight Naruto that the only way this can happen is the latter - that is Sasuke will be lost in darkness and Naruto will fight to save him. This will be consistent with Kyuubi's warning when he said that Sasuke will live long enough to regret if he were to kill Naruto.

Note: Before you flame on me, read carefully my post. I always think there is no reason for Naruto to fight Sasuke unless Sasuke turn evil and lost his mind. Orochimaru will make this happen.

There's no evidence at all. Aside from Sasuke not becoming bad when he gained the CS, and him becoming his worst after it had been long gone, there's still the issue of Anko and Kabuto. Anko holds the CS and isn't evil, while Kabuto was already evil long before he went off to learn Sage Mode.

In addition, Sasuke doesn't have to be evil for him to fight Naruto. Antagonist doesn't always equal evil. All Sasuke needs is a reason to oppose Naruto, and so far, Naruto's defense of those responsible for the massacre is plenty. Given how the Elders were implied as corrupted as Danzo, Sasuke's not gonna be prevented killing them most likely and no one would care, just like with Danzo's death. And the Kyuubi's comment was out of self-preservation, not any sort of mystic foresight. Nor will Orochimaru have any major role anymore, given how late it is in the series.

Originally Posted by number12michael

Orochimaru identifies with the "white snake"(the one he found by his parents graves) as it symbolized rebirth and immortality

That ties in with his own fears of death though, not any sort of inherent evilness.

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

First off, Orochimaru doesn't have "snakes in him". He transformed himself into a snake from his experimentation, but that happen well after he had become evil. Secondly, Orochimaru became evil because of his own fear of death.

Except the "power source" that Juugo and his clan absorb is natural energy, same power source as Sage Mode. That's the reason Juugo and his clan went cray, due to constantly absorbing natural energy all the time. Nothing to do with snakes. And Sasuke didn't become a cold-blooded killer til after he had lost the CS and gained MS. He was actually relatively decent before the events at the summit.

There's no "mysterious force". We specifically know the Cursed Seals are the way thy are because they contain a unique enzyme and Orochimaru's chakra within. Anko has the CS and she's not evil...

Noooo... Sasuke treated Naruto worst because of his own feelings of inferiority and the fact that not only could he not even touch Itachi, but he got slammed by another three days of tortures afterward. Before the events with Itachi, Sasuke was actually turning into a better person, even with the CS. He was willing to give up on his desire for revenge and had even been willing to give up his own life to ensure that Naruto and Sakura survived.

There's no evidence at all. Aside from Sasuke not becoming bad when he gained the CS, and him becoming his worst after it had been long gone, there's still the issue of Anko and Kabuto. Anko holds the CS and isn't evil, while Kabuto was already evil long before he went off to learn Sage Mode.

In addition, Sasuke doesn't have to be evil for him to fight Naruto. Antagonist doesn't always equal evil. All Sasuke needs is a reason to oppose Naruto, and so far, Naruto's defense of those responsible for the massacre is plenty. Given how the Elders were implied as corrupted as Danzo, Sasuke's not gonna be prevented killing them most likely and no one would care, just like with Danzo's death. And the Kyuubi's comment was out of self-preservation, not any sort of mystic foresight. Nor will Orochimaru have any major role anymore, given how late it is in the series.

That ties in with his own fears of death though, not any sort of inherent evilness.

I gave you a very logical reasoning but you seem again not to understand. Here is a simple analogy.

Kyuubi was evil, and Naruto has darkness in him. Whenever Naruto yielded to his own Darkness, Kyuubi grabbed it and did whatever he wanted towards Naruto's enemy. If Naruto could control himself and chose the write thing, Kyuubi's power became couldn't do any arm.

Similarly, I gave you the example of Sasuke in the forest with curse seal. First, notice that the curse seal is based on Juugo ability. Juugo said that those who have curse seal are kind of his clone and this is a canon fact. From that fact, you can connect the power in the curse seal directly to Ryuuchidou. It turn out that this curse seal also contain Orochimaru's chakra, which is a snaky chakra as well.
When Sasuke woke up, he couldn't control the seal. Therefore the power we saw was the power of the seal, and it was evil. From this fact, we establish that the power of Ryuuchidou is evil. It is up to you to accept this logic or not.

Anko can control the power, thus she does not go berserk. Kabuto is tricky because we don't really know, but I think he is also evil. I told you that unless Sasuke can control the power, he will turn dark. The reason is that if he does not control it, the power will drive him same way has Naruto could be driven by Kyuubi.

On the contrary, the toad SM does not affect Naruto's mind. It is a passive power that does not even add any toady effect on Naruto. Naruto remain human being while even Sasuke controlling heaven seal had to become an animal to use it.

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

Snake Sage mode does not gain it's power from Ryuuichidou. Orochimaru simply found out the source of Juugo's clan's ability at Ryuuichidou. When he first learned of Juugo's clan, he didn't know what natural energy was. It wasn't until he went to Ryuuichido that he learned of such a concept and deduced that it was what was transforming Juugo and his clan.

What you're implying would be like, if Lex Luthor didn't know Kryptonite was Superman's weakness, and then he found a random shard of Kryptonite in Alaska. When he uses it against Superman and says "I found out the source of Superman's weakness in Alaska", it doesn't mean his weakness is solely in Alaska, because that's not the sole place where Kryptonite can be found.

It's the exact same scenario here. Orochimaru may have learned of Natural Energy in Ryuuichidou. But he also learned it's Natural Energy that causes Juugo's transformation. That's why Kabuto says Orochimaru found "the source of Juugo's clan's power". Because it's literally the exact place where Orochimaru learned of Natural Energy (which he also learned can be found ANYWHERE).

Stop trying to alter the actual statements in the manga to your liking.

EDIT: In all seriousness, how old are you? And is English your first language?

Re: Orochimaru's Secret Scroll : Ultimate Senjutsu

I gave you a very logical reasoning but you seem again not to understand. Here is a simple analogy.

No, I fully understood what you were attempting to say. The problem was, it was factually wrong.

Originally Posted by so6pww

Kyuubi was evil, and Naruto has darkness in him. Whenever Naruto yielded to his own Darkness, Kyuubi grabbed it and did whatever he wanted towards Naruto's enemy. If Naruto could control himself and chose the write thing, Kyuubi's power became couldn't do any arm.

That's not how it went down. The Kyuubi taking over merely required Naruto to lose control of his emotions. He didn't have to "yield" to the darkness or anything for the Kyuubi to take control. Merely using the Kyuubi's chakra was enough to grant the Kyuubi a foothold, which is why Naruto had to separate the Kyuub's will from it's chakra to prevent that threat.

Originally Posted by so6pww

Similarly, I gave you the example of Sasuke in the forest with curse seal. First, notice that the curse seal is based on Juugo ability. Juugo said that those who have curse seal are kind of his clone and this is a canon fact. From that fact, you can connect the power in the curse seal directly to Ryuuchidou. It turn out that this curse seal also contain Orochimaru's chakra, which is a snaky chakra as well.
When Sasuke woke up, he couldn't control the seal. Therefore the power we saw was the power of the seal, and it was evil. From this fact, we establish that the power of Ryuuchidou is evil. It is up to you to accept this logic or not.

First off, I already pointed out that Sasuke didn't begin to change when he got the Cursed Seal. He didn't change til the events with Itachi. And he didn't become truly evil til long after the CS had been removed. The CS had little to do with Sasuke's change, other then making him more easy for Orochimaru to manipulative. That's canonal facts. Secondly, the CS doesn't gain any power from Ryuuchidou. The CS was based off of Juugo's ability, but it's not the same. It doesn't draw upon external power, but the users own chakra. And it was outright stated to simply weaken the user's will. Third, Sasuke could control the CS seal. He did so in the forest and during the later round.

Anyway, natural energy is not unique to the Ryuuchidou. Considering Juugo and Kabuto were shown fully capable of absorbing natural energy wherever they were, it's clearly not unique to Ryuuchidou.

Originally Posted by so6pww

Anko can control the power, thus she does not go berserk. Kabuto is tricky because we don't really know, but I think he is also evil. I told you that unless Sasuke can control the power, he will turn dark. The reason is that if he does not control it, the power will drive him same way has Naruto could be driven by Kyuubi.

Which shouldn't matter if it automatically evil as you're attempting to argue. Sasuke was shown with considerable more control, therefore by your logic, he would be the same as Anko... There's nothing tricky about it. Kabuto was evil long before gaining Orochimaru's power. And there's nothing to control. Sasuke doesn't even have the CS anymore. Itachi sealed away the CS, Orochimaru, and his White snake abilities.

Originally Posted by so6pww

On the contrary, the toad SM does not affect Naruto's mind. It is a passive power that does not even add any toady effect on Naruto. Naruto remain human being while even Sasuke controlling heaven seal had to become an animal to use it.

Um, no. The CS is nothing like Sage Mode, nor does it draw upon natural energy. CS draws upon the user's own chakra, which is why it was so dangerous.