The Orb - a new DS9 podcast

Loved your conversation about Quark today. He really was a fascinating character, and while he was Mischivous in the early going (And watching up through If Wishes were Horses, you can really see how much toned down he was in the later episodes) he developed so much over the years. I think one thing that struck me was his bravery, which you guys mentioned with Shadows and Symbols and Siege of AR-558, but there were other times he showed qualities that made him much more than your typical ferengi which I'm surprised you didn't mention. The two Grilka episodes, House of Quark and Looking for Par 'mach in all the Wrong places were really great Quark episodes. Also, you guys mentioned he got a conscience after Bar Association, but I think the change happened a lot more after the episode Business as usual, where he was getting into the Weapon Selling business.

Also, in regards to your last point, the Ferengi episodes are really mis-judged in my opinion. Yeah they were a little on the dumb side, but that was how they were written. They were also written with a subtle seriousness and becomes all the more clear when you rewatch the series. The best example of this was the Second Season's (Here I go with my love for Season 2 again ) Rules of Acquisition. Here we see the start of the Farengi woman movement, and we have a love story that ends tragically because of the rules at the time. This sets the stage for Quark's mother and eventual love with Zek (And I was amused you guys called him Zeke, like e"zek"iel). I do agree though, it's been a long time since I've seen Profit and Lace. On this rewatch I'm going to try to not skip episodes, even though Valient and Profit and Lace are my least favorite two episode stretch of the series.

Remember when I said that this podcast will give me new insights as I do a rewatch? Well, I think today's episode of The Orb is the best example of why I say that. I was wondering how you were going to talk about Jadzia because she wasn't the "most" developed character on the show, and you guys gave me new insights on yeah, she really was.

Listening to your show, I really wonder if we weren't supposed to learn more about the person who became Dax, but more about Dax itself, with some hints about the host. We do learn that Jadzia is very fun, smart, and I would say sassy. However, the stuff you guys brought up makes me think I need to look harder at dax, kind of how she acts, what she does, and how she does do things from her previous hosts. It literally is Jadzia being the sum of her parts, and yeah I did noticed sometimes how she would hold her hands behind her back. Heck, I just watched The Circle Trilogy, and the scene where they get the small fighter to fly was all Tobin Dax, played in Jadzia's body.

I always hear people say the writers didn't know how to write Dax, yet listening to your show about you guys talking about how her past lives really helped Jadzia grow and develop, I have to wonder if that was the writers intent. When we got to Ezri, it was back to writing about the person, because the question was how does a person who is not ready to be joined adapt to her new environment. With Jadzia, it was really how do her past lifetimes help her shape her own, again, the literal sense of being the sum of past lives/experiences.

I used to think Jadzia was one of my favorite characters on the show, Then I saw a lot of backlash against her on this forum for a few years (it's calmed down somewhat lately) and while she was still a great character, I probably ranked her too high. Now, I think she was, as was the whole idea of Dax, a worthy character to Trek lore. Again, like you said, it was a great idea for a sci fi concept, even if they should have fleshed it out better.

I mentioned last week after watching Homecoming, The Circle and Siege that my all time favorite Jadzia Dax scene was any scene with her and Kira in the ship, flying over and through Bajor, and I really wish that friendship between the two would have stayed that strong. Did Kira come to Dax for advice? Yeah. But in terms of the whole friends thing, it really didn't work once we got to that stupid princess scene in Way of the Warrior.

tomalak301: I am so glad to here our discussion of Jadzia helped. I honestly feel that there is so much more to her than people give her credit for. It is subtle though and so you have to be paying attention. Terry did a great job of bringing all of these facets of her to light and making it seamless. All around, one of my favorite characters

Just finished the Jadzia show, and I think you're right that the character is unfairly maligned. I have often been one of those who considered her one of the least developed characters on the show, but you did help me to see how there's more to her than people realise. It's just that her character development is not as obvious as people like Odo or Kira.

A couple of extra angles to discuss that you didn't have chance to get to. 1: her relationship with Quark. She's one of the few people on the station to accept him just as he is without trying to insult him or Ferengi culture in general. It's interesting that she has such affinity for both Klingons and Ferengi, even though those two cultures have generally been portrayed as diametric opposites. While Kira and Sisko and Odo and everyone else always rag on him and complain and never take him seriously, Jadzia just gets along with him. I think that speaks to her experience with all kinds of people over 300 years, and finding something to love in all of it. You're also right that she has a positive effect on him in ways he probably doesn't even realize - the thing that makes him most understand that he's crossed the line in "Business as Usual" is when even Jadzia is annoyed with him, when she's accepted everything else he's ever done.

And 2: I think Jadzia - or possibly just the concept of the Trill in general - allowed Star Trek to make its most varied exploration of sexuality. Not just in terms of the Lenara relationship, but also when you look at who is the "space stud" of the cast. TOS has ladies' man Kirk. TNG had ladies' man Riker. But DS9's most sexually active character is Dax - at least until she settles down with Worf. And the fact that she's a woman in that role is more quietly revolutionary than I think she gets credit for. I don't think anyone doubts that for the first four years or so she's a very sexually active woman - Captain Boday, the wrestler guy, hell she even asked Morn out - but never once is she "slut-shamed" for that. She's just the "space stud" of the show, same as Kirk or Riker... and she's a woman.

And I think that's not necessarily restricted to men. The fact that she was willing to build a life with Lenara means that obviously she would have been open to having sex with her at some point. Ezri may have been joking when she said "I don't think there's anyone on DS9 who wasn't her lover," but there's a kernel of truth in that - she didn't discriminate. The host body may be hard-wired with a certain sexual orientation, but since the symbiont provides access to memories of sexual encounters regardless of gender, it would inevitably lead to a certain fluidity of sexuality. And Jadzia as a character provides an opportunity to look at that in a way no other Star Trek character does.

lvsxy808: that is a good point about her being a very open character and not be slammed for being open sexually. I had not thought about that before. She really does give us the opportunity to look at how the past affects us and how motivations of who we use to be, after we have grown, can still have a huge impact on us. Jadzia is fun and I am really glad that they gave us a character like that. Who wouldn't want her as a friend or lover?

I don't have much to say about the Kira show that hasn't already been said (And it was an awesome podcast again) but I'm glad you guys highlighted Battle Lines. People tend to write off the first season as the season DS9 just finding it's groove and it really didn't get good until Season 3 (Which is also wrong) but there were some quality episodes in Season 1 that lead to the beginning of Kira's development, and I consider Battle Lines to be one of the more important Kira episodes in the series. It laid the groundwork for her journey, and when she finally let's go, Visitor did a great job expressing that emotion.

I don't have much to say about the Kira show that hasn't already been said (And it was an awesome podcast again) but I'm glad you guys highlighted Battle Lines. People tend to write off the first season as the season DS9 just finding it's groove and it really didn't get good until Season 3 (Which is also wrong) but there were some quality episodes in Season 1 that lead to the beginning of Kira's development, and I consider Battle Lines to be one of the more important Kira episodes in the series. It laid the groundwork for her journey, and when she finally let's go, Visitor did a great job expressing that emotion.

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I agree with you, although uneven, a lot of the themes and motifs from the first season are carried out through the entire series in character arcs and in the overall mythology of DS9.

Agreed. I think "Battle Lines" might be the most important Kira episode.

Not the best, mind you, but the one most necessary for her character development. And given the emotional intensity it required, for an early-first-season episode, it manages to be remarkably not-cheesy.

Agreed. I think "Battle Lines" might be the most important Kira episode.

Not the best, mind you, but the one most necessary for her character development. And given the emotional intensity it required, for an early-first-season episode, it manages to be remarkably not-cheesy.

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I think that it is because Nana is a fantastic actress and really proved from the beginning that she understood this character