My wife bought an Elantra limited and I'm impressed with the car. Not only is she averaging 40+ mpg, the car's fit and finish in my opinion is on par if not better than Jetta. The car is spacious for a compact car and it even has heated rear seats. Her touch screen Nav is good but the thing I stumbled on to last Sunday was a sports page on her nav which displays real time NFL scores. Sunday drives will never be the same! It also has a stock market page, weather page with live doppler and news page. Really cool stuff for a $23k car.

I agree my friend just got 1 and its gorgeous. 23k is nice too..

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"Speed never killed anyone its very important to get that straight, Speed has never killed a soul. Suddenly becoming stationary thats what gets people." - Jeremy Clarkson

This was true ten years ago, but take a look at the Velostar, or the Genesis coupe. I'd say that the Koreans have advanced their game a heck of a lot further over the last decade than the Germans, who collectively have taken a step back. Even with the recent price slashing at VW/Audi, I'd say that a similarly priced Korean car offers significantly higher quality materials and dare I say, engineering.

When Lexus and Infiniti launched, MB and BMW took forever to respond, it seems that VW might not make the same mistake with Hyundai/Kia.

I can tell you for 100% Professional fact that no Korean car is engineered better then a german car. What everyone is so impressed by is a precieved quality and a bunch of electronic gizmos at a low cost. A rattle has so little to do with a cars level of engineering. Take a Hyundai Equus completely apart and examine exactly how it is built and the materials it is built from and it becomes very clear why it is able to be sold for such a cheap price. It is shit. Not even on par with a VW Golf, let alone a Lexus LS, or 7 series as Hyundai wants you to believe. I say give it 10 years, people will see what kind of cars the South Koreans really produce.

^^^
Just to be clear, I am not talking about something as trivial as a soft touch dash chrome on a radio knob. I am talking real engineering. Things like the quality of the steel used for the outer body panels. How is everything is bonded together? What are the inner structures made from and how are they designed?

Most people don't give a thought to this, but that is true engineering and thats how I look at a car to determine if I feel it is " well engineered ".

Hate to tell you but BMW isn't the hottest on that list either and a brand they own is at the very bottom of the list.

Never said BMW is reliable. To have something even less reliable than a BMW is a joke..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamster12011

^^^
Just to be clear, I am not talking about something as trivial as a soft touch dash chrome on a radio knob. I am talking real engineering. Things like the quality of the steel used for the outer body panels. How is everything is bonded together? What are the inner structures made from and how are they designed?

Most people don't give a thought to this, but that is true engineering and thats how I look at a car to determine if I feel it is " well engineered ".

I feel safer in any German car over a Korean mess anyday.

Do you think we are still in the 80s?

All cars that are imported into the US has to meet federal safety standards and regulations. Ironically, Hyundai and Kia safety rating is basically all 5 out of 5.

Kia and Hyundai also has better body and interior dependability, feature and accessory dependability, and also power train dependability where Hyundai averaged 4 out of 5, Kia 3 out of 5, and VW 2 out of 5..

German engineering?

Quote:

Body and Interior Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems in the vehicle exteriors, seats and vehicle interiors categories, such as seat belt issues, wind noise, water leaks, poor interior fit/finish, paint imperfection and squeaks/rattles.

Quote:

Feature and Accessory Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems in the features, controls and displays; audio, entertainment and navigation; and HVAC (heating, ventilation and air conditioning) categories, such as issues with windshield wipers, navigation systems, rear-seat entertainment systems, heaters, air conditioners, stereo systems, sunroof controls and trip computers.

Quote:

Powertrain Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems with the engine or transmission as well as problems that affect the driving experience (i.e., vehicle/brakes pull, abnormal noises or vibrations) only.

So you are using third party information to try and get your point across. That is fine. I work with the auto manufacturers first hand everyday at my job and have access to almost any technical data I request from them. I have taken Hyundai's manufacturer training as well as VW's and Hyundai and Kia are not even close when it comes to the things I mentioned in my previous post. Do you even understand things like tensile strength and what the difference is between HSS, UHSS and HSLA body panels? If you do, then I will listen to your statements more seriously.

Also, I would rethink your need to depend on companies like JD Power or Consumer Reports for your data. They have been very wrong about many vehicles in the past. Consumer Reports listed the Lexus GX460 as a "DO NOT BUY" due to something as tiny as as traction control issue that could be updated with nothing more then a software reprogram.
That vehicle is one of the best SUV's you can buy.

I can tell you for 100% Professional fact that no Korean car is engineered better then a german car. What everyone is so impressed by is a precieved quality and a bunch of electronic gizmos at a low cost. A rattle has so little to do with a cars level of engineering. Take a Hyundai Equus completely apart and examine exactly how it is built and the materials it is built from and it becomes very clear why it is able to be sold for such a cheap price. It is shit. Not even on par with a VW Golf, let alone a Lexus LS, or 7 series as Hyundai wants you to believe. I say give it 10 years, people will see what kind of cars the South Koreans really produce.

I may not have the technical background but I am in the industry and I can tell you, Hyundai/Kia has alot of manufacturers scrambling to keep up with the recent surge that the South Koreans have displayed. I'm an exterior designer for VW/Audi Group and just recently, we've been acknowledging and extensively looking into what the South Koreans have been doing. Until a couple of years ago, the 2 brands were rarely if ever mentioned in reviews and discussions. Now, they're listed as one of the leading competitors whenever we design a VW. If they produce such shit cars, how can they afford to provide such an extensive warranty? Wouldn't they be out of business, like tomorrow??? And in ten years, I think their product will be unbelievable. If they can progress the way they have recently, I feel that they'll surpass quite a few of the manufacturers that are mentioned in this thread. By no means am I trying to claim that a Hyundai is engineered better than a VW but you have to consider the fact that they haven't been in the business nearly as long as VW. Having said that, the accelerated progress of the South Koreans is undeniable.
And with the Equus, Hyundai actually takes quite a hit in price. It's a vehicle that they produced to gauge the response for such an upscale offering from a brand such as Hyundai. If you actually have taken an Equus completely apart and you can state for a fact that it's shit, then I have nothing to say but i highly doubt it's the crap that you claim it to be. Hyundai will be launching a luxury brand in the near future and I'm quite sure that the quality will be very, very good.
Even though I design for a German company(and love it!), I'm actually very proud of what South Koreans are producing nowadays.

I may not have the technical background but I am in the industry and I can tell you, Hyundai/Kia has alot of manufacturers scrambling to keep up with the recent surge that the South Koreans have displayed. I'm an exterior designer for VW/Audi Group and just recently, we've been acknowledging and extensively looking into what the South Koreans have been doing. Until a couple of years ago, the 2 brands were rarely if ever mentioned in reviews and discussions. Now, they're listed as one of the leading competitors whenever we design a VW. If they produce such shit cars, how can they afford to provide such an extensive warranty? Wouldn't they be out of business, like tomorrow??? And in ten years, I think their product will be unbelievable. If they can progress the way they have recently, I feel that they'll surpass quite a few of the manufacturers that are mentioned in this thread. By no means am I trying to claim that a Hyundai is engineered better than a VW but you have to consider the fact that they haven't been in the business nearly as long as VW. Having said that, the accelerated progress of the South Koreans is undeniable.
And with the Equus, Hyundai actually takes quite a hit in price. It's a vehicle that they produced to gauge the response for such an upscale offering from a brand such as Hyundai. If you actually have taken an Equus completely apart and you can state for a fact that it's shit, then I have nothing to say but i highly doubt it's the crap that you claim it to be. Hyundai will be launching a luxury brand in the near future and I'm quite sure that the quality will be very, very good.
Even though I design for a German company(and love it!), I'm actually very proud of what South Koreans are producing nowadays.

I take your points very seriously. Compared to a Buick or an infiniti, the Equus is a great car. However when the president of Hyundai came out and said here is the new Equus, it is just as good as the S-Class, LS, A8, and 7 Series..... I had my doubts. I have seen an Equus completely taken apart and have studied it's build and repair processes for the collision repair industry as that is what my job involves. It is no-where close to any of those cars. I am sorry, but it just isn't. It is no more advanced in it's construction then an Accent. When you look at the so called rivals, there are massive differences between a 3-series and a 7 series and a Lexus IS and a LS. I would have no problems with it if the weren't trying to market it as an S-class rival because it is misleading.

In the end, my dislike for Hyundai comes from the way they market their cars. I remember when the new Sonata came out, they ran a commercial stating that it had better paint quality then a Mercedes CLS. That caption was dropped after about 2 weeks after airing because it was false advertising. They were stating that their car had less "Orange Peel" then the Mercedes. This is not a sign of better paint quality. Considering that Mercedes uses a PPG Ceramic Clear coat on their cars which is extremely durable and will retain it's gloss much longer then a regular water based clear coat, the Mercedes actually has the better paint quality. I notice they still run that ad every now and then, but the caption is nowhere to be seen.Aslo BMW offers a 12 year rust warranty on their cars. That is the best in the industry. Hyundai offers 5 years tops. So your warranty comment lacks ground as even Chrysler offered a lifetime warranty on their cars a few years back and you can't tell me that they build the best cars out there.

I take your points very seriously. Compared to a Buick or an infiniti, the Equus is a great car. However when the president of Hyundai came out and said here is the new Equus, it is just as good as the S-Class, LS, A8, and 7 Series..... I had my doubts. I have seen an Equus completely taken apart and have studied it's build and repair processes for the collision repair industry as that is what my job involves. It is no-where close to any of those cars. I am sorry, but it just isn't. It is no more advanced in it's construction then an Accent. When you look at the so called rivals, there are massive differences between a 3-series and a 7 series and a Lexus IS and a LS. I would have no problems with it if the weren't trying to market it as an S-class rival because it is misleading.

In the end, my dislike for Hyundai comes from the way they market their cars. I remember when the new Sonata came out, they ran a commercial stating that it had better paint quality then a Mercedes CLS. That caption was dropped after about 2 weeks after airing because it was false advertising. They were stating that their car had less "Orange Peel" then the Mercedes. This is not a sign of better paint quality. Considering that Mercedes uses a PPG Ceramic Clear coat on their cars which is extremely durable and will retain it's gloss much longer then a regular water based clear coat, the Mercedes actually has the better paint quality. I notice they still run that ad every now and then, but the caption is nowhere to be seen.Aslo BMW offers a 12 year rust warranty on their cars. That is the best in the industry. Hyundai offers 5 years tops. So your warranty comment lacks ground as even Chrysler offered a lifetime warranty on their cars a few years back and you can't tell me that they build the best cars out there.

I thought you work in the auto industry?

Hyundai:

Quote:

7-YEAR / UNLIMITED MILES ANTI-PERFORATION WARRANTY

Covers perforation (rust hole through the body panel from inside to outside) corrosion of original Hyundai body sheet metal due to defects in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance.

So you are using third party information to try and get your point across. That is fine. I work with the auto manufacturers first hand everyday at my job and have access to almost any technical data I request from them. I have taken Hyundai's manufacturer training as well as VW's and Hyundai and Kia are not even close when it comes to the things I mentioned in my previous post. Do you even understand things like tensile strength and what the difference is between HSS, UHSS and HSLA body panels? If you do, then I will listen to your statements more seriously.

Also, I would rethink your need to depend on companies like JD Power or Consumer Reports for your data. They have been very wrong about many vehicles in the past. Consumer Reports listed the Lexus GX460 as a "DO NOT BUY" due to something as tiny as as traction control issue that could be updated with nothing more then a software reprogram.
That vehicle is one of the best SUV's you can buy.

I am using solid concrete evidence such as actual crash test conducted by IIHS. Why don't you show us some concrete evidence to prove your points? I can talk out of my ass too if I want to..

By the way, the GX460 is on the "do not buy list" because it has a high risk of rollover.

Old people and fleets buy Lincolns, they don't hear or report problems like rattles.

Porsches and Jags are not only cars so their owners don't spend every day in them. Plus, Porsches are pretty well prepped before you pick them up (I can not speak for Jag).

Look at the a-holes who buy BMWs, its amazing that they are not on the bottom of the list

I agree, I think this list is quite a bit out of order. Different owners definitely report more and if you take a look at the demographic of these different makes, it makes sense that some are more reported than others.

This is why reliability ratings should be taken with a grain of salt, I think the traditional groups - Toyota (minus a small stretch with the Camrys), Lexus, Infiniti, Honda and Acura should always be towards the top. The reason is that I see most of these cars on the road still running well from back in the day, my personal experience also agrees. My VW was the absolute worst, followed by my Jeep, followed by a Chrysler, followed by BMW while my Toyotas, Lexuses and Mazdas have been top notch, then let's not even bring in maintenance costs or god forbid if anything were to break.

So you are using third party information to try and get your point across. That is fine. I work with the auto manufacturers first hand everyday at my job and have access to almost any technical data I request from them. I have taken Hyundai's manufacturer training as well as VW's and Hyundai and Kia are not even close when it comes to the things I mentioned in my previous post. Do you even understand things like tensile strength and what the difference is between HSS, UHSS and HSLA body panels? If you do, then I will listen to your statements more seriously.

Also, I would rethink your need to depend on companies like JD Power or Consumer Reports for your data. They have been very wrong about many vehicles in the past. Consumer Reports listed the Lexus GX460 as a "DO NOT BUY" due to something as tiny as as traction control issue that could be updated with nothing more then a software reprogram.
That vehicle is one of the best SUV's you can buy.

hmm, I wasn't aware car manufacturers were using uhss in body PANELS. In any case, the unibody of hte genesis (from which the equus is derrived), is made from uhss.

Furthermore, the torsional rigidity of the genesis is higher than that of the F10 5, jaguar xf, infiniti M, lexus gs, etc. The only car that has a higher rigidity is the W212 E class. The genesis also has one of the most structurally sound roofs in its class, I think iihs conducted this test. The genesis and equus were chosen as best picks in their respective classes. I'm not sure that's something you can thumb your nose at.

Hyundai is the only car manufacturer that products its own steel, lowering production costs. Granted, other luxo barges do have better quality plastics, leather, etc, but it's not too far ahead of the higher end hyundais (this is coming from someone who owns and owned a slew of german and korean cars).

May I ask what the "hyundai manufactering training" entailed? I'm curious as hyundai only produces certain models here in north america. The genesis and equus are produced in ulsan, rok. I don't know how much exposure you got regarding the buiding process of those cars.

Also, how is it you were able to get this info? Details of the manufacturing process are largely considered proprietary and/or confidential (try approaching the security guards at the west point, ga Kia, or the montgomery, al hyundai plants with a camera).