If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

How to Become a Bastard for Evil !!!

Okay so we are knee deep in the revelation that Tobi is Obito now so no turning back but for many of us this feels to be a great disappointment at the over seemingly simplicity of one of the seemingly darkest villains in them manga. Aside from the timeline conflicts there may very well be more to the story than we realize and I will explore some of that here but why dont we take look at some of the other villains in them manga and explore their transformation into villainy as a comparison.

Most of the characters that turned evil can be split into 2 camps. Those that had some traumatic life experiences and made an intellectual choice that led to an evil mindset and those who had traumatic life experience followed by periods of suffering that lead to an emotional turn to evil.

The Intellectual choice for Evil: I did it because I wanted to.

These individuals are marked by tragedies in their life which had a dramatic effect on their way of thinking. They became evil not because of rage but out of ideology to try and find greater meaning to life to validate there experiences.

Madara: - We don't know about his childhood but we do know it was a time of constant war that he grew up in thus death and sacrifice where a constant for him. Thus in order to gain greater strength eventually he killed his best friend and obtained the MS along with his brother that allowed him to take control of the the Uchiha clan. With this new power he was able to challenge Hashrima the greatest shinobi of the time. It was around this time he also was able to read more of the Rikudou Tablet left with the Uchiha.
As his eyes failed his brother Izuna sacrificed his eyes which lead to his death and he was able to obtain the EMS but before he could use this new power a Senju Peace treaty was sent which he opposed but the other members of Uchiha clan where tiered of war and wanted peace. Thus he was forced into an uncomfortable peace for the interest of the clan. As he tried to wrestle leadership control of the new village the Uchiha clan refused to back him thus he was force to leave alone. He obtained the Kyuubi and used it to attack but was defeated by Hashrima but not before obtaining a sample of his DNA.

Thus Madara who grew up during a time of constant war, who was betrayed by his own clan believes only in power and making sacrifices to obtain it as that is how he survived for so long. However interestingly enough the fact that the Uchiha betrayed him makes you wonder why he would entrust so much to Obito/Tobi.

Orochimaru: - He lost his parents when he was young and thus grew up an orphan without that parental love. Upon seeing the skin of white snake Sarutobi explained to him that it was symbol of rebirth and that perhaps a sign that he could see his parents again some day. Clearly loosing his parents was a traumatic experience and him being an intellectual tried to find meaning from this tragedy by buring himself in the study of jutsu. Thus jutsu's became an obsession for him and as he grew up during a time of war his mission experience grew and so did his experience with the fragility of life as death is everywhere in a Shinob war. He also joined Danzou's Root which teaches you to kill your emotions to become a more powerful tool. You can see plainly from his offcial mission logs how much war experience he has: Orochimaru has completed 1,468 official missions in total: 16 D-rank, 332 C-rank, 521 B-rank, 491 A-rank, 108 S-rank.

Thus his seeking to find meaning to life through studying jutsu plus his fear of death is what lead him to abandon morality & to become a villain.

Sasori: - His parents died when he was a child so he grew up without the warmth of his parents love but always secretly desired it. His grandma Chiyo raised him and looked after him as best she could but eventually he became a shinobi and went through the Sand villages indoctrination of "killing your emotions to become a weapon" training program. This was probably a relief to Sasori in that he always carried the grief of loosing his parents love and that left a hole in his heart which he tried to stomp out by learning to kill his emotions. However like in many other villages that experimented in this there was backlash in that a shinobi that kills their emotions can also loose something important like their moral center thus his killing the 3rd Kazekage to gain access to his abilities.

So you could say his seeking to conquer his own pain and fear of death to gain meaning from life was his reason for turning evil.

The Emotional Turn to Evil: Rageoholics unite

These guys didnt so much make an intellectual choice as one from strong emotions that stems from long periods of suffering.

Nagato: - This guy is clearly marked with a lot of suffering from early on. His parents where killed violently "trying to protect him" when he was child. His powers awoken and he managed to kill the attacker but all to late. Due to war and he became a war orphan & he spent his time wandering begging for food and almost died from starvation until he ran into Konan & Nagato. The war orphans had no one to rely on but each other thus became like family and struggled to survive by stealing food.
During his early time with Jiraya Yahiko was attacked again something he loved being threatened ad his powers awakened again and killed the attacker allowing him to protect his friend.

Years later during Hanzou's betrayal his most precious friends are at risk and he was "unable to protect Yahiko" thus he died. Thus he uses his most forbidden jutsu and destroys nearly everyone threatening his friends and is able to protect Konan.

Clearly the theme running here is his desire to protect the ones he loves while failing to do so twice and that pain fueling his desire for greater power the power of a god to protect those things. Very Anakin Skywalker like as mentioned years back in my starwars thread.

Gaara: - Clearly he suffered a lot as child his mother died during childbirth and he was born to be the secret weapon of the village. Firstly as Jinchuuriki he got the usual treatment of pariah of the village with the evil stares and the like. Then on top of that his uncle the only close parental figure in his life was forced to lie to him and tell him his mother never loved him and he wanted him to die and killed himself to do so. Then dear o Dad tried to send assassins to test his power which Gaara assumed where attempts to get rid of him because he was an unwanted relic of the village.

So as you can see Gaara's brief turn to evil was from obviously being loathed and hated and thinking no one loved him and thus he wanted to gain power to kill all those who threatened him and his existence.

Sasuke: - He had a normal childhood with a loving brother and 2 parents until that fateful night where the brother he admired and looked up to more than anyone else killed the Uchiha clan and his own parents then tortured him. Sasuke a small child at the time knew nothing about the internal drama of his clan and could hardly make sense of everything that happened to him. The most prevailing question in his mind was why? He wanted to understand why Itachi betrayed him and did such horrific things. After Itachi's death he learns the truth from Tobi and of course he becomes enraged because everything he knew about his clan and his brother turns out to be a lie. Even now with Orochimaru he seeks to uncover the truth behind everything to make his own decision.

Thus Sasuke's goal since the massacre has always been to seek the truth and seek justice.

So where does Obito/Tobi fit in?

Okay so based on his response "I was because you let Rin die" it would seem his reasoning would fall under the emotional category. Most of the guys under that category not only had tragedy but period of great emotional suffering. Clearly Madara is factor here too and I'l get into that.

Was Rin dying the only factor here?:

- I would venture to say no that doesn't seem to be enough reason to hate the world so much but it was defiantly a factor
.

So what was Obito's great suffering?:

- Well we dont know much of what happened during his childhood if he was a war orphan or not is unknown. How he was treated by the other Uchiha members is also unknown maybe he was looked down on as embarrassment to the Uchiha clan?

- The first obvious factor would be his injuries that he suffered from after being crushed by rocks loosing and arm and possibly portions of his body.

- The one thing I can link from both loosing Rin and his bodies damage is that these are both are the result from his own decisions in some way. He entrusted Kakashi to protect Rin with his sharingan and that failed. He sacrificed his own life to protect his friend Kakashi and suffered injuries from it. So he could blame himself for not protecting Rin with his own hands and believing in his own power to protect her rather than leaving it up to someone else.

The Madara connection:

- I have mentioned this before but I defiantly feel there is a direct connection between Madara & Obito and that he may actually be a decedent of Madara or Izuna. Thus Madara is not just a fellow Uchiha he is close family to Obito who for all we know may have been a war orphan of the clan. This may explain why Madara trusts him to some degree....

Madara may have explained his true heritage and that he is descended from greatness and instilled into him a greater sense of purpose and pride he never had.

- Also we know it is possible for Uchiha clan members to share memories through their eye Genjutsu, so its possible Madara gave him a lesson in hatred from his own vast life experiences. I'm speaking Clock work Orange type lessons here. He may have predicted the fact that Rin was going to die because he relied on someone without special power(Kakashi). Thus when Rin died it may have seemed like Madara was a prophet & the gospel and everything that happened was from his own foolishness.

- This still makes it hard to believe Obito could handle all the things that happened that night the Kyuubi attacked but hopefully there is reasonable explanation for that as well. However there is still probably more to it than that. Things we as audience member didn't know anything about that will be revealed.

As much as we hate its simplicity, Obito has confirmed that the *primary* source of his turn towards darkness was Kakashi's failed promise and Rin's death. It seems that he suffered from these almost equally; he spent his whole life revering Kakashi and pining for Rin, and he clearly believed in heroes. He himself wanted to become a Hokage, the one who protects the village.

Notice that Obito doesn't really hate Kakashi, but merely Kakashi's empty promises. What he really hates is the futility of life itself, where there are no fairytale endings, but merely death and failure. His hopes and dreams for himself were taken from him in an instant by a "noble sacrifice" to protect his friends. He passed on what remained to him, his hope for his friends, and in the end that was a failure, too.

I'd compare Obito to a person of religious faith who, upon suffering, questions their religion, asking why a god would allow suffering. Obito's personal suffering merely awakened him to the idea that everyone's life is pointless, full of suffering and ending with failure to change the world in any lasting, positive way.

To me, this seems to make sense, at least compared to the other examples where characters made the "leap" to evil. Sasori and Orochimaru's loss of their parents and obsession with immortality aren't really any more convincing / deep, and neither is Madara's obsession with sacrifice and power. Sasuke just seems completely immature and irrational; his suffering didn't increase after the Uchiha Massacre, and he gained positive influences such as Naruto/Kakashi... it was really just his shame that pushed him back towards living solely for revenge. After that his actions became even more irrational, culminating with his promise to wipe out Konoha despite Itachi continuing to view himself as a loyal member of Konoha, and despite a lifetime of positive experiences with citizens of Konoha.

Obito is looking at the bigger picture, and it makes sense why he disregards the harm caused by his actions: he views it as a necessary step towards creating a perfect world for everyone. He isn't self-obsessed like Orochimaru or Sasori. He isn't driven by personal passions in the same way Sasuke is. He views ending the world of suffering/failure as an improvement, and he intends to give to humanity a world of dreams. Compared to this, Nagato seems far more deluded, and seems to have put far less thought into his "Master Plan" of using terror to create temporary peace.

Madara's influence on Obito is obvious, because he himself seems to have dreamt up the Moon's Eye Plan. However, it doesn't make sense for Madara to actually want the Moon's Eye Plan; he's always hated peace and lived for power. Madara has always been the embodiment of an entire culture of warmongering. I know Madara is the successor to the Elder Brother ideology of power being the key to peace, but I don't see why it makes sense for Madara to hate reality itself, nor even for him to pursue peace. That seems more like Tobi/Obito's way of thinking. Based on what we know about Madara, you'd think his present state is far more to his liking; he's an immortal god with all the power he ever wanted.

I've said this before, but I believe Obito looks down on the current Madara, who is still very "human" compared to Obito. Madara is full of pride and hatred, whereas Obito has moved completely past his concept of "self." Madara targeted Tsunade merely because she was related to Hashirama, whereas Obito ignored Kakashi's existence for a long time, despite Kakashi being the hero who's failure broke Obito's faith.

Admittedly, Obito's apathy towards life would make FAR more sense if he had more time to brood on his suffering and consider what the real source of his discontent was (he concluded it was the imperfection of reality); given the short time frame between his "death" and his re-emergence as Tobi in the Kyuubi attack, it seems impossible that he did all of this philosophizing and preparing. Hopefully the coming flashbacks fill this in; myself, I'm guessing Kishi is adding a few years to our timeline.

I also don't really get Obito's obsession with Sasuke / the Uchiha Clan in general. Perhaps this is Madara's influence speaking through him, but I believe Obito is well beyond caring about legacies of hatred, unless such legacies serve as further evidence that life is hopeless. Perhaps part of Obito enjoys playing the role of the master (even taking on the name Madara), as doing so completes his evolution from "the one who is manipulated" into "the one who manipulates." Perhaps Obito merely views corrupting Sasuke as a necessary part of ripening Sasuke for his role in the Moon's Eye Plan (which we still aren't sure about, because Obito seems fully prepared to initiate the plan without Sasuke). Basically, it's still unclear what the hell Obito was ever doing with Sasuke; his actions since starting the war make sense, but we watched him mess with Sasuke for over 100 chapters, and Kishi has to answer for that now that he's revealed Tobi to be Obito.

One possibility (that I would like to see made explicit!) is that Obito views Sasuke/Naruto as representatives of his younger self. Naruto has total faith in heroes/dreams, and Sasuke is a vulnerable young Uchiha who has experienced suffering and betrayal. Perhaps Obito views the conflict between the two as the conflict between his old and new ideals. Obito is manipulating Sasuke in a way similar to how he himself was manipulated by Madara, and likewise Obito is testing Naruto in many of the same ways he was tested. He tries to make Naruto feel the futility of his dreams, of being entrusted with the dreams of others, and of trying to save his friend from hatred. It's clear that Obito himself was always more similar to Naruto than he is to Sasuke, so I can't wait to pick out more parallels in Obito's development to compare him to Naruto/Sasuke. Obito is basically what Naruto would have become if Naruto, rather than Sasuke, had fallen prey to Obito's manipulation.

Obito's obsession with the Moon's Eye Plan is a classic example of how power corrupts; I'm guessing quite a few people, given the power to do so, would create a Perfect World, despite the fact that it would erase the entire existence of the imperfect reality we currently live in. Of course, Kishi (through Naruto) begs to differ, and offers a far more optimistic view of reality / human nature, but Obito isn't THAT unbelievable.

One statement/phrase has struck me as unexpected that Madara made to Tobi-to. In some estimates, there was about 1 year between The Rockfall that seemingly killed Obito, to the Kyuubi attack. Yet Madara speaks and acts with great familiarity/trust with Obito, more than I would have expected.

There is one statement that has me puzzled:-

Spoiler!

Madra says, "It's you so you must have a plan".

How or why does/did Madara become so confident in Obito's Stratedgy Skills? Obito, up till the time he met Madara, was a rather careless young man who the data books had listed with lower intelligence than Naruto, yet Madara not only entrusts him with everything, but shows much confidence in his Strategic skills.

I can see how Tsukuyomi may have given Obito his knowledge, maybe even his knowledge of how to fight, but Madara's statement suggests Trust in Obito's decision making ability that I don't think Tsukuyomi can give.

I hope Kishi elaborates and gives us really good information on the connections between these two, and also why he chose Obito given that there were other Uchiha alive at this time. I hope he wasn't simply chosen because he was vulnerable to Madara's influence only.

@Rlinfamous,

A lot of Tobi's actions don't strike me as consistent with Obito's Motive for turning bad.

Obito wants to end all conflict, to prevent tragedy/tragedies. Why did he need to Destroy the Uchihas, and why the Anti Senju feelings.

In the world he wants to create with the Moon's eye plan, there will be no Senju/Uchiha. There will be no hatred and no ninjas. He should be neutral toward Danzo since none of this would matter, Yet he himself as Tobi was vengeful.

Another question we'll have to wait for an answer is whether the Moon's eye plan is the same for Madara and Obito? Madara just doesn't seem the peaceful type If the plan does succeed, how is an Immortal Madara going to spend eternity as the Overlord of Earth?

Last edited by paulbee; 09-16-2012 at 09:36 PM.

I am not perfect andI defy you to prove otherwise Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

@Paulbee: It's possible that "I guess you have some plan" could refer not only to Obito's intelligence/manipulative skills (which Madara is obviously quite confident in) but also to Obito's devotion to the Moon's Eye Plan. Madara must know that, whatever Obito's actions/motives are, he would never do anything to jeopardize his grand vision. That's probably why Madara trusts Obito so much; Obito cares more about Madara's vision than Madara himself does.

I also don't really get Obito's obsession with Sasuke / the Uchiha Clan in general.

Me feeling is that the eyes moon plan can only be countered by a Uchiha with the sharingan and more likely the MS. Some members of the Uchiha clan could probably resist the Eye of the Moon and pose a threat if they chose to stop it. That or all those sharingans are necessary to project the Genjutsu over a large area.

Madra says, "It's you so you must have a plan".

Yeah that made me ponder quite a bit as well PB. Its just hard to understand how Obito can develop mentally that much. I mean I know the Sharingan can make learning easier but did he just sit around reading books with the Sharingan as a short cut to developing his mind.

Similar to how Naruto uses mass shadow clones to gain weeks or years of experience in a short amount of time maybe Obito used the Sharingan to read some vast library knowledge and develop his mind through this short cut. I mean the sharingan could be come a incredible learning tool with its ability to record everything.

1) I can see your point, but I must say that when I first read the panel I did get a strong sense of Trust form Madara at Tobi/Obito's ability as a CHESSMASTER.

2) I do hope (reiterate) that Kishi gives sufficient effort to tying it all together

3) One thing that Tobi has going for him is that Madara still needs him and still needs him. It seems Madara wants to be resurrected (again), as a Living being, and not as an Edo. Madara also wants the full Juubi so he can be it's Jinchuuriki.

I wonder if Madara plans to go DEAD again, in order to be properly Resurrected.

I am not perfect andI defy you to prove otherwise Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

If he developed split personalities when he got implanted with Hash/Zetsu DNA, then maybe he's just a crazy mofo like Zetsu. I guess he really fits into both categories unless it's a ruse but in that scenario who was Tobi fooling but the reader?

I have another possibility why Kish made Madara say that he trusts Tobito has a plan. He wanted Tobito to seem like he is a "boss" on his own, not a peon underling but an equal to Madara. Meaning maybe we will see Saskue and Naruto team up and take down Tobito and Madara.

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Hehe here is a funny Idea since Madara is immortal and just an Edo maybe he can use the Rinnegan on his own dead body and bring himself back to life.

Since hes already dead maybe there is no consequence for using that jutsu that killed Nagato.

I've considered that before, but I dismissed the idea reasoning that he has to use his jutsu on a target. And if he could yank his own soul out of the Edo, the Jutsu would probably end there and then, before his soul could enter a new body. However, I don't know for sure what would happen because Kishi writes the Manga and he may change the logic as he pleases as the Artist's prerogative.

If Madara's soul is pulled out of the Edo, and then the Jutsu ends, will he go back into the Edo, will he complete the transfer, or will he end up dead again. Bear in mind that the Edo Rinnegan he is using will probably Crumble when his soul leaves the Edo body.

I am not perfect andI defy you to prove otherwise Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !