"matt 24:29-30 is the tribulation rapture! This is NOT israel's gathered together!"

You are contradicting the following scriptures:

Isaiah11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

27:2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.

27:3 I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.

27:4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.

27:5 Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.

27:6 He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

27:7 Hath he smitten him, as he smote those that smote him? or is he slain according to the slaughter of them that are slain by him?

27:8 In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.

27:9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.

27:10 Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof.

27:11 When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, and set them on fire: for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will shew them no favour.

27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Matthew24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Your error is this: Matthew 24 is all about Israel living in the land during the coming 70th week decreed .... not the Lord's church

The above scriptures alone stand against your post-tribulation view .... and the gathering is not a resurrection of anyone .... it is the Lord's gathering of the mortal Israelite survivors of the tribulation who will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom on the earth

He will then gather the survivors of the tribulation of the nations and those who are found believing will also enter His millennial kingdom upon the earth [Matthew 25:31-46]

If you cannot understand this truth from the scriptures it is because you don't want to

So you think these Israelite survivors of the tribulation enter the kingdom...........how? Are they raptured with the rest of the church? Are you saying that the gathering of the elect spoken of by Jesus in matthew 24 is not the rapture/resurrection? Because if you are, you are preaching a false gospel. I don't know where you get your information, but the reason God warned in the Book of Revelation to not add or take away from the words in the book are to protect the truth so it would not be changed by ignorant men, who will lead many away from the truth. That is why the bible says, let not many of you be teachers, because there is a stricker judgment. If we would just listen. If anyone is not in the truth even unknowingly and leading others in error, and away from the truth, there is judgment for this. That is supposed to put a respect in man towards the things of God, to make sure their words are not in error. No one is respecting God, or in other words, no one has the fear of God.

First of all, there is no 7 years of tribulation. There will be great tribulation but the 70th week of Daniel chapter 9 was already fulfilled by our Messiah Jesus, except the reference to the future prince to come who will destroy the sanctuary, which is God's chosen one's/the two witnesses, who will give their testimony. They are that sanctuary not made with hands. Jesus always spoke in a way that you had to look deeper to see the meaning of His words. This is one example. The sanctuary He speaks of is not a literal building. There are many references to this sanctuary being His chosen, elect, sons of God that will be revealed. Also, when Jesus told Niccodemus that He must be born again to see the Kingdom of God, He didn't mean literally being born from a womb. This is the heart of God throughout the scriptures. God is the author of what is revealed, not man. We are to let revelation come to us by His spirit in this way, not we figure it out literally. And it must not be delivered by a deceiving spirit. That is why God gives the message to His chosen Apostles, prophets, teachers, preachers, because He will equip them with spiritual gifts to protect them from any deception. God did it this way on purpose. That is why He spoke in parrables. It keeps the ones who are not hearing by the spirit from understanding. But now we are in the end days and everyone has their own interpretation. These interpretations come from "Man", not God. This is the spirit of Antichrist....."Man" replacing God. No one is seeking to hear God's revelation. Everyone is putting "Man's" revelation in place of God's. Many are making up stories that they think make sense with some scripture, but it does not line up with all scripture and with the heart of God in those scriptures as a whole. There is only one Rapture, which God calls the Resurrection at the end of the age. This first resurrection is for all living and dead elect/chosen, only, to rule and reign with Christ. Only those who are in the truth are worthy to rule and reign. This is a high position in God's kingdom, and it is not just handed over to any Tom, Dick, and Harry. And speaking of the word rapture, man came up with the word Rapture, it's not in the bible. We, man, have changed the truth by all these things that we make up and then build a whole prophetic interpretation upon, and it is in error. God must be the author of the interpretation, and He said it will be revealed to His chosen prophets, not every Tom, Dick, and Harry. Everyone thinks they have the mystery solved and they are not respecting God and not listening to His word. You should be looking for that prophet and hear the truth, and then know the truth. If men would seek and wait for God to show it to them before they hastily come up with their own interpretations. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, he will not change and lower himself to man, we must line up with Him or we miss it and miss out, and will be knocking at the door and He will say, "I never knew you".

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raggthyme

"If men would seek and wait for God to show it to them before they hastily come up with their own interpretations. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, he will not change and lower himself to man, we must line up with Him or we miss it and miss out, and will be knocking at the door and He will say, "I never knew you".

Why does Jesus say, "I never knew you"? Not because people have improper eschatological interpretations.

The context of this is Matthew 5-7, the context is "these sayings of mine" (everything He just finished teaching in the Sermon on the Mount)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven... I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock..."

I understand Jesus to mean that those who hear and do as their Lord commanded are the saved, they know Him and He knows them. Those who hear and do not are those to whom Jesus says, "I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I cannot find proper "end times" understanding in this context. Our Lord teaches that the fruit of those who are saved is faith- filled obedience to the commandments of God in Christ.

Does it mean chosen for salvation?...chosen to be a special people?...chosen to give the Gospel message?

chosen for what specifically?

It means chosen as the 5 wise virgins, and chosen to go in the first resurrection to the marriage supper of the lamb, to rule and reign with Christ. The others, will resurrect 1,000 years later, and those who are found in the book of life at the great white throne judgment will also be in heaven, and remember, when we die, we sleep in the grave and we are not aware of time going by. We die and then our next conscious moment is with the Lord. So, as long as you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus and have repented of sin, then you will be in the book of life and go to heaven whether it be in the first or second resurrection. The first being for the chosen. Many are called but few are chosen. Those chosen, make themselves worthy, pick up their cross and follow Christ at any cost, even at the loss of family, jobs, your life if asked of by God in the calling. following the resurrected saints in the first resurrection.

Read Matt 10

24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.

25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household?

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27 What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

But God is so gracious that even if you receive one of His chosen and receive that truth, you will receive the same reward as them.

I believe some of this elect group that will be living at the last 3 1/2 year period just before Christ comes, they will be doing great exploits as in the days of Moses as the "Two Witnesses", not just two, but many. They will be annointed by God and given power to do great exploits on the earth, and they, many will be martyred, as in Revelation 11.

Then after the resurrection, all the elect and chosen saints from past up til the "Two Witnesses", will become "One" with Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb, they will have their new body just like Christ, will be given their positions/rewards as kings, priest, and judges, and come back with Christ to rule and reign on the earth. One of the mysteries of marriage that the Apostle Paul talks about is the becoming "One" in marriage. Well, this is what takes place with the elect at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

This is that mystery

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.The elect are seeds of God sown in corruption but raised incorruptible. They are put through extremem circumstances and trials and fire in life to make them worthy for these rewards. Shown in 1Corinthians 15

41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.I hope this answers the questions. Because God is a spirit, it is hard to just put a short & simple answer.

"If men would seek and wait for God to show it to them before they hastily come up with their own interpretations. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, he will not change and lower himself to man, we must line up with Him or we miss it and miss out, and will be knocking at the door and He will say, "I never knew you".

Why does Jesus say, "I never knew you"? Not because people have improper eschatological interpretations.

The context of this is Matthew 5-7, the context is "these sayings of mine" (everything He just finished teaching in the Sermon on the Mount)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven... I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these saying of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock..."

I understand Jesus to mean that those who hear and do as their Lord commanded are the saved, they know Him and He knows them. Those who hear and do not are those to whom Jesus says, "I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I cannot find proper "end times" understanding in this context. Our Lord teaches that the fruit of those who are saved is faith- filled obedience to the commandments of God in Christ.

I do agree with all that you have written here. I meant that the door will be shut to the first resurrection. Thank you.

Godlovejoy

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raggthyme

I apologize for misunderstanding you. I guess I have read one too many condemning statements on this forum against fellow believers with regards to differing ET interpretations. I keep thinking how Jesus Christ said,

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Jesus makes it simple. He makes himself known to the one who humbles himself before God to do His will. As you said, the one who "picks up their cross and follows Christ at any cost." This is the one who overcomes the world, the flesh and the devil. Not the one with "all knowledge" and no love. We will all know soon enough what God meant when He said this or that. But the things that are crucial for salvation He made unambiguous and we have fellowship with one another based on these.

I apologize for misunderstanding you. I guess I have read one too many condemning statements on this forum against fellow believers with regards to differing ET interpretations. I keep thinking how Jesus Christ said,

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Jesus makes it simple. He makes himself known to the one who humbles himself before God to do His will. As you said, the one who "picks up their cross and follows Christ at any cost." This is the one who overcomes the world, the flesh and the devil. Not the one with "all knowledge" and no love. We will all know soon enough what God meant when He said this or that. But the things that are crucial for salvation He made unambiguous and we have fellowship with one another based on these.

Godlovjoy: "It means chosen as the 5 wise virgins, and chosen to go in the first resurrection to the marriage supper of the lamb, to rule and reign with Christ. The others, will resurrect 1,000 years later, and those who are found in the book of life at the great white throne judgment will also be in heaven, and remember, when we die, we sleep in the grave and we are not aware of time going by. We die and then our next conscious moment is with the Lord. So, as long as you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus and have repented of sin, then you will be in the book of life and go to heaven whether it be in the first or second resurrection. The first being for the chosen. Many are called but few are chosen. Those chosen, make themselves worthy, pick up their cross and follow Christ at any cost, even at the loss of family, jobs, your life if asked of by God in the calling. following the resurrected saints in the first resurrection. "

Would you tie your theory here in with Acts 2:41? Were the 3000 at Pentecost "saved" or not?

The text dose not indicate that the 3000 were "chosen" anymore that the 5000 in Jerusalem noting Acts 4:4. The requirement was to FIRST hear the Word. Second, a decision was to be made.

Peter said to those at Pentecost, "hearken to my words" (Acts 2:14). They that heard based their decision upon his message to "repent and be baptized everyone of you inthe name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). I believe you would call this "Unambiguous."

What are the written requirements for receiving remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit? Read anything in the text about "closing your eyes, saying a pious prayer and askingJesus into your heart"? Anything about a "Holy Ghost experience"?

The preaching of the Word is to be efficacious, not transcendental.It does not take a degree in theology to miss what is written in Acts, chapters 2 and 4.It takes professional help!

Godlovjoy: "It means chosen as the 5 wise virgins, and chosen to go in the first resurrection to the marriage supper of the lamb, to rule and reign with Christ. The others, will resurrect 1,000 years later, and those who are found in the book of life at the great white throne judgment will also be in heaven, and remember, when we die, we sleep in the grave and we are not aware of time going by. We die and then our next conscious moment is with the Lord. So, as long as you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus and have repented of sin, then you will be in the book of life and go to heaven whether it be in the first or second resurrection. The first being for the chosen. Many are called but few are chosen. Those chosen, make themselves worthy, pick up their cross and follow Christ at any cost, even at the loss of family, jobs, your life if asked of by God in the calling. following the resurrected saints in the first resurrection. "

Would you tie your theory here in with Acts 2:41? Were the 3000 at Pentecost "saved" or not?

The text dose not indicate that the 3000 were "chosen" anymore that the 5000 in Jerusalem noting Acts 4:4. The requirement was to FIRST hear the Word. Second, a decision was to be made.

Peter said to those at Pentecost, "hearken to my words" (Acts 2:14). They that heard based their decision upon his message to "repent and be baptized everyone of you inthe name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). I believe you would call this "Unambiguous."

What are the written requirements for receiving remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit? Read anything in the text about "closing your eyes, saying a pious prayer and askingJesus into your heart"? Anything about a "Holy Ghost experience"?

The preaching of the Word is to be efficacious, not transcendental.It does not take a degree in theology to miss what is written in Acts, chapters 2 and 4.It takes professional help!

Pointmade:Yes, this was the former rain of the Holy spirit and the latter rain will be on the "Two Witnesses" that will do great exploits like the ones in Acts. But you ask about salvation. I am not speaking about salvation, but taking a look at the chosen or elect of God as is the topic of this thread. It is only God who chooses His elect. The apostle Paul speaks of running the race in a way so as to not be disqualified. And Jesus plainly says that many are called but few are chosen. I see "Called" as picked out or chosen from all the believers. I am not saying that you are not saved if you are not called. Here in Romans 8, these were called out of many brethren(believer's)

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The 5 wise virgins were picked out among the 10 virgins who were waiting for Christ. They also were all believer's.

Christ is IsraelEXODUS 4:22 The Lord said "Israel is my son..my first born.."

The promises made to Israel..are to Christ......The Israelite who followed God/Christ....were the chosen...they had a job to do..and they did it..

Today...under the New Covenant made between God and Man...both Israelite and Gentile...all races...Those who follow Christ are heirs to the promises made to Abraham..THEY ARE THE CHOSEN ONES..THEY ARE NOW THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM..

GALATIANS 3 makes this quite clear..

COLOSSIANS 3:12 tells us that WE...THE CHRISTIANS ARE THE CHOSEN OF GOD..under the new covenant..

The promised land is not in a desert in Palestine..but it is THE NEW JERUSALEM THAT COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

all scripture points to a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH....not this place..this place is not our home..remember?

For God to be a part of building a Temple in Jerusalem in order for men to sacrifice goats for sin...would make Christs suffering on the cross of no effect...It cannot be scriptural for a Temple to be built in Israel..that is of God...

It is a fleshly Temple...THE TEMPLE OF GOD IS WITHIN THOSE WHO BELIEVE..UNDER THE NEW COVENANT WITH GOD...

I CORINTHIANS 3:16...Know ye not that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD?? thats the New Temple...its a spiritual one..not an earthly one..

You will be able to see..that the GREAT FALLING AWAY..THAT WILL FOOL EVEN GODS ELECT..has already happened..and its the LEFT BEHIND teachings taht are the heresy mentioned in the Bible..

THE HARLOT..is Gods bride...in false doctrine...

Jesus told us that the Anti Christ would come through the Christian church..

STEVE WOHLBERG is one of the most excellent teachers on the bible I have seen so far...please go to his site...and learn the tuth of what the Bible says..

I never would wrap myself around all that hysteria taught in Left Behind..God does things in order...A Rapture..leaving planes with no pilots...cars with no drivers..families with parents missing..just is not something God would do.

HOW MANY NEWBIE CHRISTIAN CONVERTS WERE LOST BECAUSE OF THE SCAREY TEACHINGS IN THE LEFT BEHIND SERIEDS? those not grounded in Godly things would not want to be Christian..and suffer all that was said in those teachings..

THE LEFT BEHIND Eschatology teachings..are born in the Catholic Church by the Jesuits of which many were Jews...Most that Left Behind stuff is all Pro Jew Pro Israel...Its obvious whats going on there..Im thinking of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion...FLESHLY JEWS..NOT SPIRITUAL JEWS...that were left behind when Christ came..Its a corruption of the Christian church...This is the HARLOT OF BABYLON...the fallling away from truth..the Anti Christ spirit..

MATTHEW 24 is about the separation of the Tares from the Wheat...the Evil ones being taken off the planet...at THE SEVENTH TRUMP OF GOD...THE ONLY RETURN OF CHRIST in the Bible is at the SEVENTH TRUMP.....Matthew 24 is all about evil people...nothing is mentioned in that chapter of Gods people..

The bible teaches us that Christ will not return..UNTIL THERE IS A GREAT FALLING AWAY FROM THE TRUTH...FOOLING EVEN THE VERY ELECT..

Perhaps that time has come.. Perhaps that time is now....and Christ is coming soon..

IT WILL BE AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH..

Genesis 6 : 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually..

Matthew 24:3Luke 17:27It will be as in the days of Noah..people will be eating ...drinking..marrying and giving in marriage...(building)..then the end will come.

Jesus will come as a thief in the night...those who do not know him...will be caught by surprise..as were the people in the days of Noah..

Colossians 3:12...YOU ARE THE CHOSEN OF GOD...holy and dearly loved. (Christians...followers of Christ..Children of Israel..)

Christians are the Israelites of the New Covenant and have become the descendents of Abraham and are heirs to the promises made to Abraham....According to scripture..GALATIANS 3...Hebrews...and in other places..