Transcript: John McCain

ABC NEWS, THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS INTERVIEW WITH SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: Thanks very much for having us here.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Thanks for having me, and thanks for
coming to Arizona and one of the most beautiful spots on earth.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, it certainly is, you know. I see all your
favorite places: your ranch and now the Grand Canyon. And I'm thinking
of the words of Wallace Stegner, the western historian, who said that
creating these national parks is probably the best thing you've ever done.

MCCAIN: I agree. One of the great conservationists and
environmentalists in our history, oddly enough, was a Republican, Teddy
Roosevelt. He was the first person at this lodge to write in to the
guest book when the Seltzer-Wial (ph) Lodge was built, back I think,
around 1912, something like that. And it's a beautiful, beautiful
statement he made. He said, "Preserve this. Don't mar it for future
generations."

And he built -- he had a lot to do with our park system and our national
monuments.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I want to talk a lot more about that in a little bit,
but let's begin with you just got back from Afghanistan. Earlier this
spring, President Obama announced 17,000 more troops and a mission to
really take the fight to the Taliban. From what you saw, is it working?

MCCAIN: They're taking the fight to the Taliban. It's a very tough
fight. They're going into areas that the Taliban have controlled for
long periods of time, in the south. Casualties are up, as we had
unfortunately predicted. But they are taking the fight to them. Our
military is incredibly good.

But the conditions are -- we went there, it's 110 degrees, flowing sand
and these young people are out there, men and women, and doing an
incredible job.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And do we have enough troops now, from what you saw?

MCCAIN: We don't. General McChrystal is going to make some
recommendations. I'm not happy with what he's going to do, because it's
been published. It will be high-risk, medium risk, low risk. Whenever
you do that, they always pick the medium risk. I think that he ought to
do what General Petraeus did, and that's decide on exactly the number he
needs and then we debate it, and the president makes the ultimate decision.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I'm going to stop you there, though, because I know you
were concerned a few weeks ago. Bob Woodward went to Afghanistan with
General Jones and wrote a story where it seemed as if General Jones was
sending a message to the commanders not to send back a request for more
troops.

Are you convinced that General McChrystal is completely free to make the
best recommendation?

MCCAIN: I think there are great pressures on General McChrystal to
reduce those estimates. But I have great confidence.

STEPHANOPOULOS: From the president?

MCCAIN: No. I don't think it's necessarily from the president. I
think it's from the people around him and others and that I think don't
want to see a significant increase in our troops presence there.

But I have confidence that he will make his most honest and best
recommendations. I just wish it wasn't this three choices, because they
always choose the middle one. We need to know exactly what resources he
needs.

STEPHANOPOULOS: How do you answer the argument, though, of others who
say that adding more troops now to Afghanistan is a fool's errand in
nation-building? That we can achieve the goal of denying a safe haven
to al Qaeda by letting the Afghan government take the lead and taking
them out with drones when necessary?

MCCAIN: Well, I say with respect, and I understand that argument, but
that was the same argument under Rumsfeld and Casey that didn't work. I
think the fundamental to success of a counterinsurgency is to clear and
hold and secure an environment for people so that the political and
economic progress can be made.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's a 40-year effort, isn't it?

MCCAIN: I think within a year to 18 months you could start to see
progress. It's very hard. It's very tough. We're facing a very
determined enemy that will stand and fight in some instances that are
very adaptable, and obviously with safe havens in Pakistan.

But as the president described it in the campaign, this is a good war
and one that we have to win. And I think he'll hold to that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: We're seeing now that the American public is turning
against the war.

MCCAIN: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The majority now say that it's not worth fighting. Two
to one, they don't want more troops. The clock is ticking both with the
public and Congress. You say 12 to 18 months. What do we need to see
in 12 to 18 months to make sure the public and the Congress stay behind
this war?

MCCAIN: I think you need to see a reversal of these very alarming and
disturbing trends on attacks, casualties, areas of the country that the
Taliban has increased control of. In other words, you need to see all
of those things reversed and on a significant downward slope. And I
think we can do that in the year to 18 months.

STEPHANOPOULOS: If not, should we leave?

MCCAIN: Pardon me?

STEPHANOPOULOS: If not, should we leave?

MCCAIN: I think we have to make decisions as the situation calls for,
but we always have to remember that we cannot allow Afghanistan to
return to a base for terrorist attacks on the United States and our
allies. That's why we went in in the first place.

STEPHANOPOULOS: There's a concern that there may be a turning back in
Iraq as well, a huge flare-up of violence this week. Did we leave the
cities too soon?

MCCAIN: I think you could argue that we may have left a bit too soon,
but I think it was important in General Odierno's eyes to give them what
they wanted. I think there's probably going to be a need for greater
American cooperation particularly as far as some of our technology is
concerned.

STEPHANOPOULOS: To go back in?

MCCAIN: Not to go back in, but to assist. For example, after these
bombings, Americans have gone in to help, you know, with the damage, et
cetera. But overall, this is an uptick but one which I think can return
to steady progress. We've made an agreement. We're going to have to
stick to it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Leaving by 2011.

MCCAIN: And, you know, again, it's like, it's definitional because I
think we're going to have to train the Iraqi air force for example and
do some of that. But as far as active combat involvement is concerned,
I think we're going to be out of there. I think that's the commitment
that we've made.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Would we be fighting these two wars any differently if
you were president now?

MCCAIN: Not now, but it's very obvious that for at least three years we
conducted the war in Iraq in the wrong fashion. And we paid a very
heavy price in American blood and treasure. And we developed a strategy
that worked. That strategy is adopted to the different conditions in
Afghanistan.

And what has emerged, George, which I think we haven't appreciated maybe
as much as we should, is that we have a group of leaders, both at the
officer and non-commission officer level that is unbelievably good.

I ran into a Colonel in Iraq that was there for his sixth tour, his
sixth tour of duty, because he wanted to be back there. I mean, it's
amazing.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's a huge strain on so many families.

MCCAIN: It's put tremendous strain on families. It has caused
tragedies and loss that grieves us and brings tears to our eyes, but
they have succeeded and they are so good. They are incredibly good
professional skilled and they believe in what they're doing

STEPHANOPOULOS: And you believe that President Obama is giving those
troops the support they need?

MCCAIN: I think the decision on resources which is coming up will
determine that. I know that President Obama made those statements about
how important this conflict was during the campaign and I do have
confidence that he'll make the right decisions.

STEPHANOPOULOS: One more foreign policy question. You were in Libya
last week with Colonel Gaddafi. You tweeted and said it was an
interesting meeting at his ranch with an interesting man, yet we see
today the Lockerbie bomber returns to a hero's welcome. Did you talk to
the Colonel about that?

MCCAIN: Yes, we said that we thought it would be a grave mistake to
give this individual a hero's welcome and I think most Americans condemn
this decision of the Scottish judiciary to let him loose.

I would point out that Colonel Gaddafi and his regime, which is very
dictatorial and totalitarian in every way and very cruel, did reverse
their position on weapons of mass destruction. Now there's still
further steps that need to be taken, but he's basically agreed to
dismantle his nuclear efforts.

If Ahmadinejad did that tomorrow, I'd be glad to sit down and talk with
Ahmadinejad. So he has at least reversed the path that they were on,
which was that they were going to acquire nuclear weapons.

STEPHANOPOULOS: While you were gone, the health care debate has erupted
here at home. This week President Obama placed the blame for the
gridlock on health care squarely on your party.

Here's what he said exactly, he said, "Early on a decision was made by
the Republican leadership that said look, let's not give them a victory
and maybe we can have a replay of 1993-94 when Clinton came in. He
failed on health care and then we won the midterm election and we got
the majority." Is that what's going on here?

MCCAIN: No, I hope not. It may be with some but I don't think so with
the majority of the Republican Party. I look at this as an opportunity
right now. The president's numbers are falling about their – American's
confidence in his ability to address this issue and how he's addressing it.

Now wouldn't it be a good idea for us Republicans and Democrats to sit
down with the president. The president has not come forward with a plan
of his own, as you know. He's got plans in the House and the Senate,
but not from the administration.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He met with a group of bipartisan negotiators on Senate
Finance Committee.

MCCAIN: But the now the time I think is to come with the leadership and
with others, at least try to sit down and see. There's so many areas
that we are in agreement on. All of us agree that health care costs are
out of control and we have to bring them under control.

So maybe it would be a good idea for us to sit down and after
consultation and agreement, the president could say here's the health
care plan that I want passed through the Congress. At least we ought to
try it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you think start fresh?

MCCAIN: Well, at least sit down – well through this debate, at least we
know what we agree on. We know we need more competition. We know we
need more accessibility. We know we've got to provide an opportunity
for every American to acquire health insurance.

We know that there are many things that we are in …

STEPHANOPOULOS: Would you agree to the kind of insurance reforms the
president's talking about? That you can't be denied health insurance
for a pre-existing condition, you can't lose it if you get sick?

MCCAIN: You can't be denied it and certainly if you have it, you
shouldn't have to lose it. but under the president's plan, you would
have to lose it in my view because of the government option. I believe
that one of the fundamentals for any agreement would be that the
president abandon the government option that may be hard …

STEPHANOPOULOS: No pun intended.

MCCAIN: … yes, excuse me, the public option. I think he'd have to
abandon the public option and that I think is what a lot of Americans
now are concerned about.

STEPHANOPOULOS: If he does you're willing to sit down and talk about
insurance reforms and agree to that?

MCCAIN: I think that Republicans are more than agreeable to sit down
and talk about various reforms. And by the way, one of them is to jump
this deal that they made with pharma, which is terrible that the
pharmaceutical companies have made a deal, which basically protects
their profits.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The president also says that the debate has been
infected by falsehoods. And probably the most notorious one is the one
made by your former running mate, Sarah Palin, who said that his bill
would encourage death panels that would encourage euthanasia. He called
that an extraordinary lie and he is right about that, isn't he?

MCCAIN: Well, I think that what we are talking about here is do – are
we going to have groups that actually advise people as these decisions
are made later in life and …

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's not in the bill.

MCCAIN: But – it's been taken out, but the way that it was written made
it a little bit ambiguous. And another thing …

STEPHANOPOULOS: I don't think that's correct, Senator. The bill, all
it said was that, if a patient wanted to have a Medicare consultation
about end-of-life issues, they could have it at their request and the
doctor would get reimbursed for it, no panel …

MCCAIN: There was a provision in the bill that talks about a board that
would decide the most effective measures to provide health care for
people, OK? Now, we had amendments, we republican have said that in no
way would that affect the decisions that the patients would make and
their families. That was rejected by the Democrats and the health
committee.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But that's not a death panel.

MCCAIN: So what does – what does that lead to? Doesn't that lead to a
possibility, at least opens the door to a possibility of rationing and
decisions made such are made in other countries?

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, every single independent group that looked at it
said it just wasn't true.

MCCAIN: Well, then why did the Democrats turn down our amendments that
clarified that none of the decisions that would be made by this board
would in any way affect depriving of needed treatments for patients? I
don't know why they did that then.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you think Sarah Palin was right?

MCCAIN: Look, I don't think they were called death panels, don't get me
wrong. I don't think – but on the best treatment procedures part of the
bill, it does open it up to decisions being made as far – that should be
left – those choices left to the patient and the individual. That's
what I think is pretty clear, which was a different section of the bill.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You worked, have worked a lot with Senator Kennedy, on
legislation in other matters. How much of a difference has it made that
he hasn't been part of this debate?

MCCAIN: Huge, huge difference. No person in that institution is
indispensable, but Ted Kennedy comes as close to being indispensable as
any individual I've ever known in the Senate because he had a unique way
of sitting down with the parties at a table and making the right
concessions, which really are the essence of successful negotiations.

So it's huge that he's absent, not only because of my personal affection
for him, but because I think the health care reform might be in a very
different place today.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You talked about working with the president now on
health care. On election night you promised to work with the president,
called on all your supporters to work with the president for the good of
the country.

Yet I was struck – this week Congressional Quarterly came out with a
study of your voting record and it said your voting record this year is
the most partisan of your entire Senate career.

MCCAIN: Well, I think it's probably been some of the issues. I did
work with the president on reform of defense weapons acquisition. I've
worked with him on other defense issues. I have supported him on Iraq
and Afghanistan. I have – on a number of other national security
issues, we have worked together and there are other areas where we have
simply disagreed.

STEPHANOPOULOS: On just about every major domestic issue and
Guantanamo, even though you say it should be closed, you've been quite
critical of the president.

MCCAIN: Well, let just say, on spending in the stimulus, I think the
major reason why the administration is having difficulty today is
because of the out-of-control, unheard of deficit that we're running,
which then gives people pause about another trillion dollars that would
have to be spent to reform health care in America.

On Guantanamo, I share the same goal, but I wouldn't – again, they have
not had an overall policy developed which should have come first, and
that, I think, has caused some difficulties.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So you think you've walked the walk on bipartisanship?
I talked to people in the administration and they say wait a second,
John McCain even voted against Secretary Sebelius for Health and Human
Services Secretary, Justice Sotamayor.

MCCAIN: Well, all I can say is that I used my best judgment. I
consider myself the loyal opposition and that is loyal to the president
where I can be and in opposition where we have fundamental
disagreements. And I look forward to working with the president on a
number of issues and I will continue to try to do so.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me bring one of them, you just talked about the
deficit. You just learned today the administration's saying that over
the next 10 years the deficit will be $2 trillion higher than they
thought, $9 trillion.

I spoke with Secretary – Treasury Secretary Geithner just a couple of
weeks ago. And he pledged that this administration would do whatever it
takes to get that deficit down over the long run including new revenues.
Can you make that same pledge?

MCCAIN: No. First we have to send a message to the American people
that we're serious. The earmark and pork barrel spending you know and
when we've talked about earmarks, only a few million dollars, only a few …

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's a tiny fraction of the budget, (INAUDIBLE).

MCCAIN: It's a tiny fraction, but it's a signal of how serious we are.
And when you say it's a tiny fraction, remember every time we add one
of those projects, it becomes a permanent part of the budget.

So it has a cumulative effect. Look, there was 9,000 of them in the
omnibus bill, I mean 9,000 and all of them became a permanent part of
the budget. So we've got to show the American people we're serious
about tightening our belts.

Then in my view, we have to look at entitlement reform. And we all know
that Social Security and Medicare are going broke. And we have to sit
down together and do that or maybe have a same thing like a BRAC
Commission, commission of most respected Americans come out with a
recommendation to reform Social Security and Medicare and it's an up or
down vote in Congress.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The president has said he's open to that kind of a
commission as well but even – and I think you would agree that former
Fed Chair Alan Greenspan is no slouch on the deficit, has credibility on
the deficit. He also said there's no way you're going to solve this
problem over the long run without new revenues, probably a value added
tax.

MCCAIN: Well first of all think with value added tax is a regressive
tax and it's a European model, which I don't think has been successful.
Second of all, should we go to the American people and say hey, we're
going to have to have new revenues when we're spending several million
dollars on a pork barrel project that we have corruption? We have
absolute corruption that people go to jail on?

Can't we reform that first? Can we go to the American people with clean
hands before we ask them to make further sacrifice? And second of all,
as principle, I think the worst thing we do in bad economic times is
raise taxes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Not right now, but over the long run you're not going
to solve a $9 trillion gap without revenues are you?

MCCAIN: I think you can reform Medicare and Social Security and not
have to do that if you truly reform it. Look at what eats up a greater
and greater percent of the federal budget, the Social Security and
Medicare.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You've also pledged to help – to work with the
president on preserving our national parks. You're here with Secretary
Salazar. And one of the things you're having a hearing on this weekend
is the threat of climate change to our national parks.

I was in Glacier National Park a couple years ago with Governor
Schweitzer. You talked about the problem there. Glaciers just
evaporating, could be completely gone by 2025, 2035. What's the threat
here?

MCCAIN: I think the threat is serious here. We've seen increased
temperatures, which has had impact on the wildlife, on the flora and
fauna, on the Colorado River itself, which we are seeing less and less of.

We are in serious drought conditions, our parks have very fragile
ecology here and, frankly, when you're in this driest area anyway, then
they're even more fragile.

So I think that part of the impact of climate change on our national
parks is – well, you know, they're going to have to change the name of
Glacier National Park because the glaciers are going away.

STEPHANOPOULOS: In the past, you've been supportive of legislation to
deal with greenhouse gas emissions, cap and trade. What about the
current legislation that's coming out of the House now, moving to the
Senate? They've met a lot of your objections about not giving away the
allowances. Is this something that you can support?

MCCAIN: Well, to support a 1,400 page piece of legislation to start
with is always difficult for me, but I believe that the only way we're
going to truly reduce greenhouse gas emissions effectively is through
nuclear power.

We have got to build 100 nuclear power plants in the next 20 years. We
can do that. Right now, the administration's position is against
storage and they're against recycling of spent nuclear fuel. I can't
support a genuine reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, unless nuclear
power is a key part of it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But you've been for it in past.

MCCAIN: I've been for – and nuclear – assuming that nuclear power would
be a key part of it. I mean, you can't get there from here. The only
country that's really making its Kyoto goals is France, where 80 percent
of their electricity is generated by nuclear power.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But you'd be willing to go along with cap and trade, if
it were part of a comprehensive deal that included more …

MCCAIN: Well, that would have to be part of it. And second of all, in
any 1,400 page piece of legislation, you put in a lot of special deals
for a lot of special interests. We know what happened there. The
bazaar was open in the House of Representatives, so obviously I would
have to want to do away with a whole lot of that.

But I think climate change is real and I would be glad to sit down and
try to work, as I have in the past, across the aisle on this issue.
Senator Lieberman is great on this issue…

STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Kerry is putting a group together as well; have
you been part of that?

MCCAIN: I have not yet, no.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I'm seeing all these condors fly around the camera
while we've been talking. Are you going to make time for a hike while
you're out here?

MCCAIN: We're going to hike later on. And these condors, former
Secretary of Interior Bruce Babbitt had a big role to play as you know
and many of our viewers may not, they had disappeared. They took a
group of them into captivity and then released them here in Arizona and
now they're doing pretty well.

We've still got a problem with copper – with lead pellets. As you know,
they eat dead things and when they ingest lead pellets it is harmful to
them, so we want everybody to use copper pellets. I'm sure you were
interested in that item of trivia.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, thank you for sharing it and thank you for
bringing us here. It's a magnificent place.

MCCAIN: Thanks for having me on, George. It's very interesting times.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Thank you.

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