Actually, I liked the enigma. Personally, I like a lot of Vunak's stuff. I had a couple of private lessons with one of his long time students a couple of months ago, and I really liked some of the PFS drills. That being said, I can see how some might not find much merit in some of it. I think (and I'm a noob with PFS, so take it FWIW) Vunak kind of straddles the line between Inosanto's JKDC and SBG. There are less pattern drills, but there are still some there. I guess it just depends on your learning style to some degree. Some of Vunak's stuff is 'dead pattern drills', but the dead stuff does, for me at least, transfers over into more alive work. So, in a sense, it isn't really 'dead' at all, just more 'indirect' of a learning method. Like I say, I dig a lot of it, but that's my learning style--your milage may vary.

--Chris

_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."--Basho

My story is that I'm moving to L.A. soon from Tennessee, and while I never believe in "quick fixes," I would like to start arming myself with some practical knowledge on how to protect myself. Vunak's stuff seems really direct and "street," and I don't want to screw around, because a friend of mine who moved out to L.A. in June was recently mugged in August. I grew up outside of L.A. and two other friends of mine who I grew up with were both mugged at gunpoint out there. That's three people that I know who were mugged in Southern California, and, not to sound egotistical, but I'm a good-looking guy going into the movie biz who kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't want to take any chances, because I know that the threat is real in a major city like L.A. I completely plan to train in JKD once I get out there, but I want to get a head start before I even get there with some things that work.

Quote:Actually, I liked the enigma. Personally, I like a lot of Vunak's stuff. I had a couple of private lessons with one of his long time students a couple of months ago, and I really liked some of the PFS drills. That being said, I can see how some might not find much merit in some of it. I think (and I'm a noob with PFS, so take it FWIW) Vunak kind of straddles the line between Inosanto's JKDC and SBG. There are less pattern drills, but there are still some there. I guess it just depends on your learning style to some degree. Some of Vunak's stuff is 'dead pattern drills', but the dead stuff does, for me at least, transfers over into more alive work. So, in a sense, it isn't really 'dead' at all, just more 'indirect' of a learning method. Like I say, I dig a lot of it, but that's my learning style--your milage may vary.

Quote:Actually, I liked the enigma. Personally, I like a lot of Vunak's stuff. I had a couple of private lessons with one of his long time students a couple of months ago, and I really liked some of the PFS drills.

Like I said, I didn't see a great deal of it, so I should really reserve judgment. I just based my opinion on having trained with Vunak as well as the SBG and CMD groups. Not knocking Vu in any way. The other groups simply resonated with me in a way that the PFS group did not.

Quote:That being said, I can see how some might not find much merit in some of it. I think (and I'm a noob with PFS, so take it FWIW) Vunak kind of straddles the line between Inosanto's JKDC and SBG. There are less pattern drills, but there are still some there. I guess it just depends on your learning style to some degree. Some of Vunak's stuff is 'dead pattern drills', but the dead stuff does, for me at least, transfers over into more alive work.

You know, there is an important quality to the dead stuff to some degree. In the SBG, the "introduction" phase of learning could be loosely (perhaps very loosely) equated to the dead patterns of PFS. It's all there, just done in a different way. As the SBG guys will tell you, the introduction phase is important. After a while though, one rarely has to move back to that stage. Guys can come right in and begin a session at an early level of "Isolation" training (using the "I-Method" approach to coaching).

MartialMack wrote

Quote:John--

Are you saying that he basically overdoes it?

For my tastes, simplicity means more. Depth (as opposed to breadth) means more to me. I would rather know less and be great at that than know a little about a lot. Solid fundamentals, while not flashy or pretty always, mean more to me than anything else. The reason this is so is because I spar frequently. I spar hard regularly. I have learned that having a small base of fundamental skills has done more for me than all of the martial arts techniques I have accumulated over the years have.

I'm not saying that you cannot learn those fundamentals at any PFS group. This will depend on the group. It should be known that even I run a PFS group (certified by Vunak in 2002, although I am not on the current instructors list).

Quote:

And can you recommend something else?

If you are moving to LA, you should not walk, but RUN to Jerry's Wetzel's " Centerline Gym ". He is a former PFS instructor as well as having been with the SBG and now with the CMD group. He also is the creator the "Red Zone" counter knife program. He has also worked with Tony Blauer. The man knows his stuff.

But aside from all of that, Jerry is one of the friendliest, down to earth guys I've ever met involved with this stuff. You should at least email him (tell him John Kogas sent you) or pay him a visit. If not, you'll miss one of the greatest training opportunities that you could EVER have. Particularly in LA. I will be at his place in May/June if you happen to there, attending the trainers clinic.

Quote:

Vunak's stuff seems really direct and "street," and I don't want to screw around, because a friend of mine who moved out to L.A. in June was recently mugged in August. I grew up outside of L.A. and two other friends of mine who I grew up with were both mugged at gunpoint out there. That's three people that I know who were mugged in Southern California, and, not to sound egotistical, but I'm a good-looking guy going into the movie biz who kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't want to take any chances, because I know that the threat is real in a major city like L.A. I completely plan to train in JKD once I get out there, but I want to get a head start before I even get there with some things that work.

If you're good looking and moving to LA, you will probably want to be armed to the teeth. Just kidding. Hey, at least OJ is in prison now. That means there is one less murderer walking around free. The crime rate has fallen off considerably!

Seriously, talk to Jerry W. Tell him exactly what you are looking for. Then realize that he's got ALL of that stuff that you're wanting. Keep in mind that I've done the PFS thing, and you're right, it is 'street', but so is the stuff that we're doing now. If you have any questions about that, ask him and ask me here as well. That's what this place is for.

Quote:For my tastes, simplicity means more. Depth (as opposed to breadth) means more to me. I would rather know less and be great at that than know a little about a lot. Solid fundamentals, while not flashy or pretty always, mean more to me than anything else. The reason this is so is because I spar frequently. I spar hard regularly. I have learned that having a small base of fundamental skills has done more for me than all of the martial arts techniques I have accumulated over the years have.

My instincts have me totally agreeing with this. I've already started to roll my eyes a lot of these techniques that look "pretty" when demonstrated, but are never demonstrated in a sparring or live context.

I'm just such a huge Bruce fan, and I know that keeping it simple and sparring hard was just such a big thing for him. I can't wait to do some real sparring instead of some the Karate stuff I did when I was younger...that also got my ass kicked by a very good little Mexican boxer I went to school with in California. That's what got the wheels turning for me, so I wasn't surprised when I started looking into JKD and learned that Bruce was huge into incorporating boxing concepts into his approach (as I understand it, the Chinatown fight caused him to reevaluate his whole approach as well).

Quote:If you are moving to LA, you should not walk, but RUN to Jerry's Wetzel's " Centerline Gym ". He is a former PFS instructor as well as having been with the SBG and now with the CMD group. He also is the creator the "Red Zone" counter knife program. He has also worked with Tony Blauer. The man knows his stuff.

But aside from all of that, Jerry is one of the friendliest, down to earth guys I've ever met involved with this stuff. You should at least email him (tell him John Kogas sent you) or pay him a visit. If not, you'll miss one of the greatest training opportunities that you could EVER have. Particularly in LA. I will be at his place in May/June if you happen to there, attending the trainers clinic.

Wow, this is some really great info...

The Centerline Gym looks amazing! I will try to contact Jerry immediately, and I'll definitely tell him that John Kogas sent me! I'm also really interested in the CMD stuff as it seems like one of the most logical defense approaches I've ever seen. Like I said a few weeks ago on here, seems like the Keysi guys have incorporated some of it in their stuff (and hey, if it works for Batman...).

Quote:If you're good looking and moving to LA, you will probably want to be armed to the teeth. Just kidding. Hey, at least OJ is in prison now. That means there is one less murderer walking around free. The crime rate has fallen off considerably!

Seriously, talk to Jerry W. Tell him exactly what you are looking for. Then realize that he's got ALL of that stuff that you're wanting. Keep in mind that I've done the PFS thing, and you're right, it is 'street', but so is the stuff that we're doing now. If you have any questions about that, ask him and ask me here as well. That's what this place is for.

Believe me, this thread is a great resource! I appreciate your help, and I definitely hope to meet you this summer. This all seems like a great group to be a part of...

For those who haven' seen it the enigma is a great series. The series is divided in two parts self preservation and self perfection. The first half being Self Preservation which is the complete RAT, Vunaks streamline version of JDK, all the hard hitting stuff, the most brutal techniques in JKD's arsenal. All the eye gouging, biting, headbutts, knees, and elbows. Including how to deal with multiple attackers and defanging the snake.

The second DVD is self perfection; other techniques found in JDK all functional but less brutal. For example in this section he goes over certain locks and submission techniques explaining how they are accidental if not incidental. Here he describes more the his art and his philosophy.

John,

I think you would have found the first part of the series slightly more interesting. Although nothing new to you, he just goes over the RAT in more depth than any of his other videos.

I've been a away for a while but still practicing. The way me and my brother train, we are using the RAT system as a blue print and expanding on it...as we should be.

With the advice of John I've been looking into other systems of delivery. Such as Randy Couture's clinch and his evolution of Greco clinch work into MMA, along with Rodney Kings CM style stand up defensive techniques such as the 3-point shield. Also I'm currently working on incorporating wrestling pummeling into my game, using Eric Paulson's CSW method. Paulson's techniques are a real eye opener, I never new wrestling could be so effective in terms of real combat. Its a lot more than just shooting in for the take downs, i dunno how to describe it, except its like "power judo" not as graceful as Karo Parisian sweeps, throws or flips someone, but very hard hitting non the less.

There was a question earlier about the difference between PFS and SBGI. In my opinion from what i have seen, PFS uses more traditional drills. To help train attributes. Both camps have the exact techniques. PFS is more focused on street, weapons and multiple attacks. While SBGI focuses a lot more on BJJ and competition.

If I were to say the main difference its Thornton's definition of aliveness. He has discarded chi sao, hubud, energy and sensitivity drills, because he feels they lack resistance.

But then again its all progressive. For some people the need to practice something as closely as it is used functionally is important. But there are ways to train using indirect methods. A good example could be using the jump rope. Here u train all sorts of attributes, foot work, balance, coordination, stamina. It may not be alive, but they do increase important attributes.

John I hope your still around, cuz I have some questions to ask. Like how to train with big boned people? ^^.

I cant pull a guard one of my friends he is just to big and my legs are to short. I cant close my guard, and its hard to control him.