Big improvements have been made in KOffice 1.3 with respect to
interoperability with other office file formats. It is now for
example possible to import as well as export OpenOffice.org
documents. Also new is the ability to import PDF files into KWord
and make changes to the document. Support for Microsoft document
formats has improved as well.

I think it would be nice to have something like KDE Graphic Suite or KStudio. A collection of programs for graphic work like KOffice. With
- vector programm
- pixel programm
- a autotrace.sf.net frontend
- a SANE frontend
- a gphoto frontend
- an image viewer
- image organizer

Would be great if the PyQT and PyKDE bindings would go into the KDE standard-distribution. Then a lot more people (like me) would be able to contribute code to the KDE-project, something like an image-organizer would profit from a lot of input of different people.

Yup. Keramik is definitely an interesting and unique style, but I find Plastik easier on the eyes for everyday usage. Thin Keramik also looks interesting but I haven't taken the time to install it and try it out. Plastik comes with KDE now so it takes no effort to switch.

I was going to rebuttle this, but then I did went and checked out all of the screenshots. The applications themselves are fine, but they are quite inconcistant in widget theme, widget color(s), icon set and window manager theme. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to re-generate them using the latest release and KDE 3.2 :) Are the files in the screenshots located cvs (if not, why not :)? Might there even be a way to automate the capture of screenshots?

I agree. I think I only saw one screenshot that used the current default KDE theme. The crappy quick 5 second PNG picture, KDE RULEZ, Wazzzzaaaauupp!!!, poorly laid out spreadsheets/photos/etc needs to go and visually appealing content needs to replace it. Screenshots with a huge number of toolbars needs to be reduce to the essentials (simplicity).

An office suite should show consistency across the applications .. these screenshots do not show that.

A new release announcement should show off new features visually .. I'm hard pressed to see them in these shots (ie alpha channel images in KPresenter).

How does KDE-Enterprise ever expect to be successful with this level of official PR material? For as talented as the KDE developers are, they need equally as talented PR/Marketing people that can take all that is so great about KDE and get users and non-users truly excited about it.

> well maybe they need more PR/Marketing people. Ever thought of that :)

Hold on a second there Fab... this is a pretty revolutionairy thought. The point of the conversation is about what *other* people should do... you're getting uncomfortably close to suggesting that our large and productive number of contributing critics should take on the mantle of (shudder) performer on this great stage. Great googly moogly man! Do you realize the terrible commitment and risk here? I think you should stop making such controversial veiled suggestions... before you upset some critics and they don't show up for work tomorrow... especially if their busy helping a project. For shame!

No, that is what people expect of an office suite when they want to bash GNOME office.

I have used Office suites quite extensively, and can state with reasonable authority that most people do not use the intergration features of an Office suite. In fact, they use them as they used them 10 years ago. As standalone apps. People rarely use the features that are constantly hailed as the next big thing. If they really did, people would not even talk about KOffice when talking about good office suites. Because it offers nothing. The last time I tried Koffice, or kspread to be specific, I could not vlookup, hlookup, lookup or a bunch of other VERY IMPORTANT functions. How they heck do you use a spreadhseet without being able to lookup. It is a bunch cells, and looking up is the most basic thing I do with a spreadsheet. Now Gnumeric, there is a spreadsheet. Better than oocalc and some people rate it higher than Excel in some ways. Intergration can come later, I am sure its not too difficult. The infrastructure is all there. The problem is that many of these GNOME office apps are also meant to be cross platform anyway, and they were all developed by people to scratch an itch as it were.

Abiword is very good at what it does, and is developing logically forward. I think integration is good, but I rate a complete coverage of Excel functions far higher than integration any day.

But don't forget the aim of Koffice. From the start, to make an integrated suite
for quality compositions.

And with frame based KWord, integrating sheets etc from KSpread is great.
Especially for making desktop publishing swift.
This is partly why this project is so cool.

And also, that few users actually use a feature doesn't mean that they don't need that feature. It might just mean that it's not obvious how to use it. Usability. If there is an easy way to use eg integration, users could just as quickly start using it saying "Hey, great feature!".

KOffice is lacking a lot of features -- to the point that I can't see why it has a version number > 0.5.

However, since with KParts, integration should be the major feature of KOffice. This should have been developed first.

Now as it stands, version 1.3 lacks both features and real integration.

Where do we go from here? I think that the integration is the most important issue. However spreadsheet functions seem like an independent development track which could be implemented without affecting the main development path.

I think we're really going to have to get our heads together and come up with some ways to fund KOffice more and push it forwards. There is some stuff in here that is not in Open Office, and Kivio in partiular, looks marvellous. You can't tell me that stuff like Kivio and Kugar are not going to useful to businesses.

Quite frankly, with the time, resources and manpower available, KOffice is a huge advertisement for the development power of Qt and KDE.

I'd really love to. I just have all my time and funding wrapped up in Quanta. However it's also a great advertisement, and unlike office products is aimed at a less mature moving target. So it can more easily out pace windows market leaders. I wish I had resources for both, but never understimate how many web developers there are on the web. ;-)

Yes, we need to design first and code second -- rather than the other way around.

Specifically about Krita: Should this be an application suitable for artists, or should it just contain the basic paint functions needed to make office presentation slides and for desktop publishing?

Karbon14 & Krita: I think that these should be unified into a single application -- if they remain separate applications and they have the features which I want, they will have a lot of redundant code.

Killer application: I realize that KOffice was assembled from several applications, but I do not understand why it is structured as separate applications since they are not really applications but rathere KParts. It would be much better to have it structured as a single application with a single file format like gobeProductive. This doesn't have to be an either/or question; it would be possible to develop that type of interface in addition to the current separate application interface.

After about five years of development, I don't think it's a good idea to stop development on Krita and go back to the design stage... I think it's an amazingly bad idea, in fact. If you want to design a paint app from the ground up, fine, please do. And if you want to base it on the KOffice libs, nobody will stop you. And when you're done and it's better than Krita, I won't oppose swapping your app into KOffice, and Krita out -- no problem.

Meanwhile, I'll just quietly (or rather, not quietly, but that's because I'm a verbose kind of person) go on hacking Krita in my amateur way, first trying to implement what's needed most to do simple pixel-mangling, learning how this entire graphics wheeze works, and then going on to make it the application I feel is still missing from the entire OSS/Free Software portfolio. Rather than the app you feel is missing. Can't help that, the chemise being closer than the trousers.

(By now Krita now supports the layer effect thingy -- a bit limited, but that's just because I haven't implemented fancy composition operators like 'bumpmap' yet (or rather, haven't ported them from GraphicsMagick yet), and a Krita image can now consist of layers of different image types -- a grayscale layer over a CMYK is now entirely possible. Still no eraser too, though.)

I think that you confuse the application which your are developing -- which IIUC will be a great application -- with the question of what should be included in KOffice.

Should KOffice include a paint application that will ultimately be a larger application than The GIMP? While such an application will be a nice addition to the list of KDE applications, I simply do not think that it belongs in KOffice. A possible solution to this would be to have a light version included with KOffice and the larger application be a stand alone application.

Why would we set some size restraints on what may be included in KOffice? If it's useful to people I don't see any problems including it.
You do talk a lot considering the amount of work you're doing...

> Why would we set some size restraints on what may be included in KOffice?

Because it is an *office* application, not an artists painting application.

> If it's useful to people I don't see any problems including it.

It it is too complicated -- like The GIMP -- it won't meet the needs of those users that normally use an office suite. My perception of the needs of office users might not be correct, but I think that it is a reasonable position.

> You do talk a lot considering the amount of work you're doing.

I fail to see your point. I think that we could use several more people to think about things and discuss their thoughts.

Don't worry -- it's just one of James' favourite hobby horses. His flogging the beast now and then does no harm -- after all it's not talk that determines what happens, and I see very little danger of the powers that be (if they be, which I sometimes doubt) deciding to evict Krita for being too capable. For being too immature, incomplete and so on after five years of development, yes. But not for being too capable. Not on your nelly.

For the point of combining a vector app with a bitmap app you realy dont have to, when speaking of Krita and Karbon. You only have to connect the dots :-). Both apps use KOffice libs, eg they are kparts and they have layers. Then the only ting needed is to have the apps accept a layer wich is an kpart.

As I don't have a clue of the code involved perhaps I'm talking nonsens :-)