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[Track time: 0:47:19]
CARVER LIVING NEWSPAPER PROJECT: ORAL HISTORY
Interview with Barksdale W. Haggins and Irving Haggins
By Lucy Anne Lucas, Carver resident and Trina Davis, VCU student Date: December 12, 1999
The interviewers' questions are bolded. Ms. Lucas, the community member interviewer, is identified as AL. She commented as well as questioned. Her comments are also bolded.
Barksdale, can you give me your name? Barksdale Haggins
And you were born? 1932 at 814 Norton Street
And what school did you go to? Elba
And where was that?
That's in Marshall Street between Hancock and Goshen
Okay, what church did you attend here? Ebenezer.
Okay, how long did you live on Norton Street? From my birth until I was 9, in 1957, so from 32 to 57.
How many was there in your family? 4 Boys
What's your occupation? Religious store proprietor
Since you say you're married, what's your wife's name? Joyce
And do you have any children? One boy, he's 41
What does he do?
He works for the housing opportunities committee
What kind of music do you like to listen to?
Religious music, like Richard Smallwood and Grifton Tabernacle
What's your favorite school subject?
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English. I graduated from Armstrong in 1950. Then I went to Virginia State in 1951. Then I went into the army from that time until 1956, and then I went into this business that I'm in.
Let's see, I lived at 814 Norton Street with my brothers and my mother and father and I started taking newspapers when I was 12 years old. I had a partner who was Gilbert Lucas, we used to call him G-wood, and every day he would meet me right on time, and later on we started carrying morning papers, so every morning around 5 o'clock he would come in the house, just walk on in the door, come on upstairs where I was sleeping and nudge me, and say "It's time to go". How he could find me was amazing, of all of us that was in that bedroom, how he could walk right up to my bed and nudge me and tell me "Its time to go". Every morning right on time at 5 we would go up to take these morning papers until we stopped. I guess I was sixteen years old around then.
And for recreation we used to play football in the street during that period of time and hand ball on the wall at the corner grocery store, and that was our main source of recreation. Every evening after school and half of Saturday. And on Sundays, quite naturally, just about everybody would be at church. And my younger brother Irving he will tell you the rest of it.
Thank you. Irving?.
(I) My name is Irving Haggins. And I was born 814 Norton Street in 1934, and I went to Elba School, located down between Hancock and Goshen Street, and I started school in 1940. And across the street from Elba School is T&E Laundry, I remember that well. I'm trying to think. From Elba School I went to Moore School, and I went there for about a year, and then from
Moore School I went to Armstrong School, from where I graduated in 1954. And I'm married and I have two children, and I live now in the Varina area in the eastern part of Richmond. (Barksdale asks) How old were we Irving when we owned the billy goat?
(I) I was nine and I think you were eleven. (B) And we put the billy goat in the wagon.
(I) And then we got these ponies, I was about ten then, and you were 12, and we terrorized the neighborhood with animals.
(AL adds) Not always with billy goats, you had chickens too, remember? (I) Yeah, we had chickens. We had a real farm.
(AL) And you had one old rooster that used to come up in our backyard. That rooster used to run right up in the back of the house.
(B) Yeah, every morning, right on time. We had corn out there. It was a real farm in a small area in the city. But what was embarassing, though, was when the goat used to get loose. It would go into people's gardens and munch on their gardens. It was very embarrassing.
(I) I said we used to terrorize the neighborhood. This went on for like ten years.
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(AL) Didn't when year you all had a celebrity come down your house to ride that pony? What was his name?
(I) Sugar Child Robinson came to our house. This would be in 1946. We had a great time. He was one of these children who was very reserved, and they had keep him away from a lot of people, so he had a real great time coming down here.
(AL) I remember him riding that pony down the sidewalk. And what were them pony names? Merrily and Ginger?
(I) Yeah, Merrily stayed up in the Union Yards after he got older and after Ginger died. And we got older. And so therefore it was just one of those things that happened later on.
(AL) And when we lived on Norton Street, we had nice trees, right?
(I) That's right. We had nice trees, and people had nice yards, and there was a stream on around there, and people owned there own property. And people had respect for other people's property.
(B) How many people can you name that used to live around there?
(I) I can name a lot of people. I don't know if you got enough time for this. I remember Georgia, who used to live on Catherine Street, and her husband Mr. Singleton, and I remember Robinson, Mander Robinson.
(AL) Mander lived next door to James house. Yes, James and Viola. And then Viola got married.
(I) And Viola used to live up in Norton street. #808.
(AL) Yeah, right next door to Miss Hester's.
(I) How about Mr. Ruckle? What relation was he?
(AL) My uncle.
(I) What was he, your mother's brother?
(AL) No, he was married to my daddy's sister. Maidy Ruckle.
(I) He used to work up at the lumber yard. Up on the Boulevard. I forgot the name of that lumber yard.
(miscellaneous chatter about he location of the lumber yard)
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(I) How about Miss Eva and Miss Williams? Miss Williams used to teach school and her sister Eva. They lived next door to us. There was Miss Davis on the other side. Miss Davis used to live next door to you.
(AL) She was a witch. She was about my height but she weighed far less than I do.
(I) Miss Ainsley used to live across the hall, and under her was Mr. Hubbard, I can't remember his wife's name, and across the hall from them was James Jr. and Mary Thomas, and then there was the Goodmans who lived up there. Ann Goodman and her sister.
(AL) Wasn't it Laney? I ran into her about a month ago. She's back in Richmond. She went to Florida for a while, but she's back now. She's as tall as basis is, and twice as big.
(I) Oh no. And remember that lady who had all them dogs? Miss Nellie. Do you remember her? (AL) Yes I do.
(I) I thought you'd be too young to remember her. She used to smoke all them Domino cigarettes. She'd sit up on the porch and smoke Domino cigarettes, and send us to the store to get her more cigarettes. You couldn't do that today. We used to wait for her every day so we could get her nickel or dime every day, cause she used to pay a nickel or dime for somebody to go get her cigarettes, a pack of cigarettes. And she had all those dogs.
(AL) She used to sell them. She used to be a dog seller.
(I) Did she? I know she used to have spitz. Little white spitz. And next door to her was the Hermans. Boy did they have an immaculate home. Linwood and Jessie Ray. And Mr. Hughes used to have the lawn out there. Do you remember he used to block off Norton Street and have a party?
(AL) Yeah, a block party.
(I) Yeah, he'd block off Leigh Street to Clay Street. He'd block it off.
(AL) I can remember one time they had a race, and somebody was carrying me into the house.
(I) I thought you'd be too young to remember that. I remember Miss Smith. Do you remember Miss Smith? She lived right there on the corner. She was related to a wealthy Randolph.
(AL) Really? I didn't know that. But I know Miss Louise bought Miss Smith's house. And she moved over there. And she stayed there a long time, until late in the 50s, maybe longer than that, because we moved up on Clay Street in the 60s, and she was still there. And then I think she sold the house and moved when Jimmy went into the service.
(I) Is that right?
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(AL) Yes. And she went up to the west end. Then Junior bought another house in the west end. And then she's over in a high rise in Southside. Then Junior sold the house and moved down in Varina. He has a wife now, and a little boy about 12.
(I) Is that right? Remember when that dry goods store used to be at Norton and Leigh and we used to dress the windows up for Christmas? Ooh that was fun. Elmer's dry goods store. An owner by the name of Harley. And Grossman was on the other corner. And he had a son by the name of Gilbert. And the people would go in Grossman's store and drink, and after they got drunk, then the Black Mariah, they used to call it Black Mariah, would come up there and pick them up and take them downtown. And the man who used to stand on the back of the Black Mariah, Billy on the back, he'd stand on the platform in the back going down to Smith and Marshall. And then coming out from behind Grossman's store there was Mrs. Shelton. Remember Miss Shelton? She had dogs too. Mr. And Mrs. Shelton. Remember them? Right on the corner of two alleys. Miss Shelton, then Miss Ward, then the Barretts, then Mr. Wilkinson, then Miss Pearl. Pearl, what was her last name? Bailey. She was Chuck and Edith's mother. She was down on the corner of Calpert and Norton. . And then Mary who lived there, Mary Ellis, she lived with Miss Wilkinson. I was thinking about the other Mary, she had a daughter named, no she had two daughters, Edna and?
(AL) Edna and Barbara Jean. They were some kin to Miss Edith too. (I) That's right.
(AL) Miss Pearl was a grandmother I believe. I should remember that because she used to dress the chickens for Mr. Simms.
(I) She sure did.
(AL) Who was that? James Fillmore.
(I) Roland Walker used to work there too, remember? And before that it was Jake . And before that it was, let me, what was his name, he had a sister who was a nurse who used to live down on Clay Street. You remember, Charles Anderson. He used to have a sister named...
(AL) Ethyl Ann. They used to live next to Sam's Store.
(I) Sam's Delicatessen store. And then there was Charlie Perrin, who lived up there on Clay Street. Norton and Clay. And Miss Banks. She used to teach over at Armstrong.
(AL) Where did she live?
(I) She lived over next to Roland Walker, in the 1200 block. She used to teach at Armstrong. Every morning she'd come around that corner with her granddaughter, she used to take her to school, and her husband owned a filling station on Street, an Amoco Station. Then there was Lonnie Gorham, Mr. Gorham, he graduated from Armstrong in 1945. Then next door to him
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was Mr. Tinsley. His mother used to make aprons for his wife. And on the opposite corner was Mrs. Paintner. And they had a sign named Charlie Pine. They used to give ice out at the corner with a wagon. And we used to go up there to get coal for the heater when the coal car would come. And if you got to close a man would run you away "Get away from there boy. Leave that coal alone." That coal would come off of that conveyor. Remember that? Into the hopper car. And the coal that would fall off the conveyor we used to go up there and get.
(AL) Nowadays up there it seems like everything has changed.
(I) They built that building up there at Tomlin Street. Used to be a field up there. With fruit trees. There was a house up there too One house. Mr. Abbott.
(AL) I never knew who Mr. Abbott was, but I knew that was where he lived. Remember the time the horse fell in the woodhouse? Remember that horse came up the alley, right up on top of the wood house and went right down in there? They had to take a crane and get him out of there.
(I) Is that right?
(AL) Yeah. I don't know whose horse it was or where it came from. But anyway, I know that was a big thing. They want to know now, what up there has changed and what you think has caused the change.
(I) Well, at what used to be the RF&P, there was a warehouse up there, and that now is VCU's gymnasium, and across the street from there was a plumbing supply place, and further down was Richmond ice company. All that's changed now, I don't know exactly what that is now. The economy brings about change. Everything now you got buttons for. You got your refrigerators. The economy. When World War II came that's when the change came about. When the economy stayed down all of us were able to live better and do much better. During that time we were very poor and we didn't know how poor we were.
(B) The whole city has changed. This move from the city to the counties, this flight from the cities to the counties now, has really hurt the cities, because all the department stores have moved now and gone out of business. They had a trestle that led from Richmond Glass Company. You could go upstairs in Richmond Glass Company and catch the street car. And that street car would take you across the trestle over to Brook Road. Out Brook Road all the way to Ashland.
(AL) Now, in order to get to Ashland you've got to drive. (I) Well you can go by train.
(AL) And I'll tell you another thing. They run a lot of people out of the neighborhood when they brought in the turnpike. Because the turnpike went through the west end, through this side, through the north side. Every which way. A lot of people who owned their houses lost them.
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(I) It split the Black community right in two.
(B) When we were little they used to call them drugstores, but they don't call them drugstores anymore. They call them pharmacies now. We used to carry drugs when we were kids, drugs from the drugstore. We called our prescriptions drugs. Other changes have come about because of economics.
(AL) They want to know something on here about how segregation changed the neighborhood. What kind of segregation did we have growing up?
(B) Well, we had on the corners these Jewish stores. Grocery stores. And they had children. And they couldn't go to our schools. They had to bus them or take them by car to whatever school they went to, elementary schools. Of course we played with them. They didn't have anybody else to play with, so they had to play with us. I can remember many a day I'd go on down to Grossman's store and eat dinner with Gilbert and his grandmother. It was one of those things where the kids didn't have anybody else to play with.
(AL) And segregation was never a part of it.
(B) We didn't think a whole lot about segregation because we lived with it, and it just didn't bother us that much until later. These type of things never occurred to you. And then later on, when the fight for integration started, it was because of the job situation, we wanted better jobs, we wanted better housing, we wanted to be able to go where we want to go for entertainment, we wanted to be able to go to restaurants and eat like other people instead of being second class citizens. So that's what brought about his integration. And when that came about, then a lot of Black businesses folded, because the Black people went into the White neighborhoods to restaurants and to different kinds of food and entertainment and everything else, so naturally it just changed everything. As far as our way of living is concerned.
(AL) I think that's really what it was. This man wants to know how we've seen the role of women change in the community over the years. How about the role of men? Pretty much the same, isn't it?
(I) Well, you got better jobs. Everything changed. You had money that you didn't use to have. You could live better. You could move about. Money changes everything. Always did and always will.
(AL) Can you tell one story that captures the life in Carver from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s.
(I) That changed the face of Carver?
(AL) That's what they said. Oh, "Captures" the life.
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(I) Well, I can remember back in the early 40s, remember Rachel Jackson and all the Jackson sister and the Elba school children got up and sang "We want a George Washington Carver school" They used to sing that all the time to the superintendent of the schools. And all those white people would be around and we would have to sing it to let everyone know we wanted better schooling because that school we were in didn't even have indoor restrooms. No cafeteria, no auditorium, and a library about as big as my living room. So we wanted better living facilities and better schooling for the longest kind of time we used to sing "We want a George Washington Carver school". So they finally got it in 1950, wasn't it?
(AL) I don't know what year it was, I know it was the year when I went into the 7th grade, because we marched from Elba into Carver.
(I) Then it had to be 1951 or somewhere around there that we finally got that Carver school. And that's when the whole area came to be known as the Carver area.. Because before then they called it Central Richmond, and then later on come to find out it used to be known as Sheep Hill. I don't know where they got that from, they used to drive sheep or cattle from down 17th Street up Leigh Street to the stockyard. So it was cattle used to be going up and down Leigh Street, and they used to call it Sheep Hill, but that was something that came later in life that I learned about it. Because I didn't know that. And I never saw cattle being driven up there.
(AL) They tell us, where we live now, right there in the back alley there used to be a spring which means that every time it rains the alley sinks. In the 1400 block of Clay Street. The spring used to be right through there somewhere.
(I) And they had another spring down there on Harrison Street, because we used to go down there and go down these steps and get water down there. We sure did. Right there at Harrison and Catherine Streets. And right up the street there were a lot of springs up there in there. That's why they put the brewery in there. Richbrau. And they use spring water to make the beer. There's a number of springs in there. You walk around smelling all that stuff and didn't know why we were drunk. They were brewing mash. Brewing beer.
(AL) They brewed the beer on one side and train on the other.
(I) And right across the street from that was there power house. That thing made more noise...It would hum all day. All day long that thing would make noise. They got those big dynamos in there, and those things are throwing out power. Were you born during World War II when they used to have those air raids?
(AL) I can remember Mr. Castor.
(I) Yeah, Castor. On Clay Street. He had a horn. He'd go around there raising cain. (AL) He had that white helmet on.
(I) I didn't think you'd remember that.
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(AL) We could see him from our porch.
(I) He'd come in and tell you "Turn those lights out".
(AL) Turn out the lights. Well, I guess this about sums this one up.. I don't have any more questions.
(T. Davis) I have a question. What was the significance of the George Washington Carver song? What did Carver do that made you want to sing about his school?
(I) The significance? The significance was to let the superintendent of schools know and all these other people around who had the power to get a school for Blacks, you know, an elementary school because we didn't have any facilities, so we'd sing this song to them and just try to hand it to them over and over that we want a George Washington Carver school, elementary school.
(TD) But why use that name instead of Booker T. Washington?
(I) Because we already had a Booker T. Washington Junior High.. But we wanted an elementary school, and George Washington Carver was a Black scientist. And we just wanted an elementary school named after him, which we finally got in 1951.
(TD)So was Armstrong the only Black high school?
(I) Armstrong was the only Black high school until 1940, when they built Maggie Walker school, and then they had two Black high schools.
(TD) And how did that affect the community? Having two Black high schools?
(I) Oh, that was a great thing because there was a big rivalry between Armstrong and Walker schools. That was the biggest thing in Richmond during the Thanksgiving weekend. That drew more people than all the white colleges and all the white high schools in the whole area. Because that was a classic. And it went on until they changed the schools back in, what was it? 1960 or 1968 or something like that, when they incorporated the high schools like Marshall, Walker and Armstrong and Kennedy or something. They eventually closed Maggie Walker school, which ended the classics we used to have. But that was the biggest event in Richmond every year, bigger than anything else.
(TD) And did that bring a lot of business to the Carver neighborhood?
(I) It brought a lot of business, yes, to the Black neighborhood. All the Black neighborhoods, not just the Carver area, like Northside and east end and everywhere else. To all the Black neighborhoods it brought business. Like I said, after integration, all of this just changed.
(TD) What about some of the movements, the civil rights movement, how did that affect the neighborhood?
(AL)Was there any meetings in the neighborhood? What went on?
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(I) Well, the only meetings that I knew about were up at Virginia Union, and that was to sit down at the lunch counters. They were only going to let certain people do it — I wanted to do it, but they claimed I was too hotheaded. Because somebody spits on me, I'm going to war. You had to be trained how to handle the situation like this, because you're going to be called names and spit on, and everything else, so those were the reasons. The only place I know of that they had those types of meetings was at Virginia Union.
(AL) I have a question. What kind of role did Reverend Hancock play in this stuff? You know, he was a Virginia Union professor, right?
(I) I went to Moore Street Church, so I don't have any idea. I never heard of him doing anything as far as I'm concerned.
(AL) Why I ask though is because they had a thing in the paper about him not too long ago. A whole page on him during black history month. A lot of stuff in there that I never knew about him. We living in the neighborhood never knew the stuff we knew about him. It should have been known in and around the neighborhood. I was a member of the church, but we didn't get the information either.
(I) You would think that they would at least have mentioned what he was doing. They didn't mention meetings or anything else going on at that particular time.
(TD)Before 195 was built, how far did the Carver community extend? (I) The Carver community extended down to Brook Avenue, didn't it Bark?
(B) But it wasn't known then as the Carver community. It didn't get that name until after the school was built. So therefore it wasn't known as the Carver community, it was just a part of Jackson Ward, Central Richmond.
(AL) That's the way I always understood it.
(B) See there were some streets back there that they did away with once they built those homes back there. What did they call those houses back there?
(AL) Hartshorn homes
(B) There were some streets back there between Moore Street, there was a little street called Shorten Norton, which was a continuation of the street that we used to live on. After you crossed Leigh Street you couldn't go straight through, you'd have to go down to Harrison or either up to Kinney and come around to get to this street, which was only one block, and they called it Shorten Norton. Then there was another street between Moore Street and Leigh Street, it was Williams Street.
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(I) That street was done away with. There used to be a stable along there down off of Leigh Street also. All those things were done away with once this change came about. The turnpike took that stable. And the laundry also. There was a laundry down there. It was on Brook Road. There was a coal yard. And a Frank Knott scrap-iron place, but they're still there.
(AL) And across from that now they have the police horses.
(I) They have a stable down there that houses the police horses. That was just a little piece that was left after they cut the highway through.
(AL) And they couldn't actually put anything there.
(B) There was talk, I don't know how true it was but it must be true, that Frank Knott told them, when they were building that 95, that there was supposed to be a ramp on Belvidere Street down in 95 North, so if you were traveling south on Chamberlayne you could get on this ramp and go north on 95. And Frank Knott told them you're not coming through here with that ramp, and they built a fence all around Frank Knott's place, so you can't get on 95 North if you are coming down Chamberlayne unless you go around several blocks and are traveling north on Chamberlayne to get on 95. That's another thing that money will do. Yes indeed.
(TD)Do you remember any tragic stories that affected the community that left the community in a standstill? For example the book I read Coming of Age by Ann Moody, where she said somebody's whole house was burned by the Klan, and the family was in it, and how that changed her outlook on the civil rights movement. Do you remember any stories such as that?
(I) I don't know of any stories such as that, but people are just devastated when houses are burning down.
(TD)Or any incidents similar, not just houses burning down.
(I) Any tragic incidents you're talking about. I can't recall any myself. I think we're blessed that we can't recall any.
(TD)And the last question, with this being so close to Christmas, how was the Christmas in the neighborhood?
(I) Now we were children then. And Christmas is always great when you're a child. We were kind of a close neighborhood, and whenever Christmas day came, people would go to each others houses, you know the kids did, to see what kind of toys the others got and that sort thing. I guess that happens in all communities. But we always had great Christmases. I can't even remember a bad Christmas ever.
(AL) I got one more question I want to ask you. Do you remember that train you had sitting up there?
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(B) I still have it. Yep. And we didn't have any key to our door. We just walked in and out. We never had a key to our door, our house was never locked. Anybody could just walk in and out the door.
(AL) They had a lot of trains and a lot of track. That train track would fill this room, wouldn't it?
(B) Well about half this room. I kept adding to the table.
(AL) That was one of the main things I remembered about your house. (B) See we used to have a lot of fun.
(AL) Well that old street is all boarded up now. I think there's one house still, where Miss Davis used to live.
(B) I don't know if anybody is even living there.
(AL) That's the only house on that side of the street that anybody is living in. (B) And Herndons. I don't know who is living in Herndons house.
(AL) She's on committee with me. Ms. Johnson. She's a retired teacher. (B) I'm glad somebody lives there.
(AL) She said she was retired from somewhere around here, but I don't remember her, I really don't remember her.
(B) Whereabouts did she live?
(AL) I thought she said on Hancock Street. Now I didn't remember but Hancock Street really isn't that long. I don't remember her.
(I) I used to live on Hancock Street and I didn't know a lot people there. I just knew the people in that block.
(AL) She said she kind of grew up on Hancock Street. But I don't remember her. She just retired last year.
(more miscellaneous chatter about the woman's appearance)
(B) I never thought I would be afraid to get out of my car and walk up and down the street I was born and raised on.. One time I got out of my car and I walked up Catherine Street, around to the back of my house, and I don't know where these hoodlums came from, I think they came from out of the woodwork, I was surrounded by a bunch of hoodlums, and they were asking me all
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kinds of questions, I told them I was born and raised in this house. I don't remember what they were asking me, all kinds of crazy stuff, but I never did anything like that again. Because that whole area has just changed.
(AL) They keep asking us what we want to see in the neighborhood in the next ten years or so, and I keep telling them put houses back up there, put people back there. Decent people, you know. And one's that live a decent life. They can restore those apartments or they can put them in housing. Just so they make it inhabitable. So that you can have some decent
people down there so that once again it can look like a neighborhood. I would love to see that.
(B) But there are some steps. You have to go up one set of steps, then another set of steps, then another set of steps. You'll have a five-story building before you're done, I mean way up in the air.
(AL) I'm telling you, the breezes are nice in the summer time.
(I) Remember all those steps you had to go up? So you're not from Richmond. (TD)I'm from Richmond. I was raised in Gilpin Court.
(B) I remember when they built Gilpin Court. It was nice. It was 1945. Ooh, you talk about lovely. (Everybody is talking here at once, and it is impossible to discern distinct lines.) People were clamoring to get in.
(I) Gilpin Court was built during the war, wasn't it? And right after the war it was opened. That was a tragedy when that house blew up. It was gas. Because they had gas refrigerators and everything was gas. I don't' know what happened, but it blew up.
(AL) Did anybody get hurt?
(I) I don't think anybody got hurt.
(AL) But it made people think twice about moving into the projects. And at that time we didn't call them projects, they were called Courts. And they actually were sort of like courts.
(I) And they were nice. You didn't have incidents like you got now. All these courts are like that today.
(B) I think its still nice today. But people put this perception, this stigma, on it. But its just as nice today as any other neighborhood. Just because one or two individuals, you got rotten eggs in a dozen eggs. It's not bad, but its just a fact. The drug situation made all the neighborhoods change everywhere. I don't care where it is. You got people like that in Windsor farms. Only thing, they come in our area and buy it, then they go back to their area, and they put the stigma on our area.
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(I) They've always had drugs. We just never had the money to get them. You take these rich white people, they have cocaine sniffing in their house and at meetings and places. They always had drugs, we just didn't know anything about it. We couldn't afford anything like that. It was a luxury. But that was funny, during those times you had bootlegging. They used to run around the block on Saturday night. The police couldn't catch them, they just kept laughing at each other. Circling the block. It was like kids out there playing. We used to have to run up on the porch. I imagine they'd be doing like 40 miles per hour. But it seemed fast to us.
(B) It was fast, because they'd be going around the corners.
(AL) Do you all remember when they used to come crossing over the streets and the car would come bouncing up onto the sidewalk and they'd be chasing. We'd be upstairs and we could see it.
(B) Remember Emmett? He used to drive that ice truck? He'd come around the corner on two wheels in an ice truck..
(I) Dickie Boy had an ice wagon. And he thought he was a cowboy. He had on a cowboy hat and two ice picks. Like holsters. Like he had two guns. Nickel a piece of ice.
(B) And then they built Gilpin Court and people didn't need iceboxes. That was really fantastic. And then they had the black drugstore. They don't have them any more. Doctor Chaney's. They had Doctor Jackson's down at Goshen and Leigh. They had Doctor somebody down at Brook Avenue and Leigh. They had three black drug stores. But now they only have one. Their gone now. All the competition now. Walgreens, Rite Aid and Eckerds. All the competition now.
(AL) And drugstores selling everything but drugs.
(B) Yeah a lot of everything. And another thing they've done is no more service stations. They used to have, you drive in your car, and the people would come out and check your tires, check your battery, your water, your oil, they don't do that stuff anymore. They don't even put your gas in. Nowadays they don't do anything like that. You got to pump your own gas and do anything. Do you have any more questions?
(TD)No.
(B) Well I certainly appreciate this.
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Part of a series of interviews conducted as part of a Carver-VCU Partnership project documenting the history of the Carver neighborhood in Richmond, Virginia.

Topics Covered

In this interview, brothers Barksdale W. Haggins and Irving Haggins reminisce about their early years growing up in the Carver neighborhood of Richmond, Va. The Haggins brothers discuss their childhoods in Carver; including recollections of friends, neighbors, schools and events. They also reflect on changes to the neighborhood and the city of Richmond and the effects of segregation and integration.

[Track time: 0:47:19]
CARVER LIVING NEWSPAPER PROJECT: ORAL HISTORY
Interview with Barksdale W. Haggins and Irving Haggins
By Lucy Anne Lucas, Carver resident and Trina Davis, VCU student Date: December 12, 1999
The interviewers' questions are bolded. Ms. Lucas, the community member interviewer, is identified as AL. She commented as well as questioned. Her comments are also bolded.
Barksdale, can you give me your name? Barksdale Haggins
And you were born? 1932 at 814 Norton Street
And what school did you go to? Elba
And where was that?
That's in Marshall Street between Hancock and Goshen
Okay, what church did you attend here? Ebenezer.
Okay, how long did you live on Norton Street? From my birth until I was 9, in 1957, so from 32 to 57.
How many was there in your family? 4 Boys
What's your occupation? Religious store proprietor
Since you say you're married, what's your wife's name? Joyce
And do you have any children? One boy, he's 41
What does he do?
He works for the housing opportunities committee
What kind of music do you like to listen to?
Religious music, like Richard Smallwood and Grifton Tabernacle
What's your favorite school subject?
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English. I graduated from Armstrong in 1950. Then I went to Virginia State in 1951. Then I went into the army from that time until 1956, and then I went into this business that I'm in.
Let's see, I lived at 814 Norton Street with my brothers and my mother and father and I started taking newspapers when I was 12 years old. I had a partner who was Gilbert Lucas, we used to call him G-wood, and every day he would meet me right on time, and later on we started carrying morning papers, so every morning around 5 o'clock he would come in the house, just walk on in the door, come on upstairs where I was sleeping and nudge me, and say "It's time to go". How he could find me was amazing, of all of us that was in that bedroom, how he could walk right up to my bed and nudge me and tell me "Its time to go". Every morning right on time at 5 we would go up to take these morning papers until we stopped. I guess I was sixteen years old around then.
And for recreation we used to play football in the street during that period of time and hand ball on the wall at the corner grocery store, and that was our main source of recreation. Every evening after school and half of Saturday. And on Sundays, quite naturally, just about everybody would be at church. And my younger brother Irving he will tell you the rest of it.
Thank you. Irving?.
(I) My name is Irving Haggins. And I was born 814 Norton Street in 1934, and I went to Elba School, located down between Hancock and Goshen Street, and I started school in 1940. And across the street from Elba School is T&E Laundry, I remember that well. I'm trying to think. From Elba School I went to Moore School, and I went there for about a year, and then from
Moore School I went to Armstrong School, from where I graduated in 1954. And I'm married and I have two children, and I live now in the Varina area in the eastern part of Richmond. (Barksdale asks) How old were we Irving when we owned the billy goat?
(I) I was nine and I think you were eleven. (B) And we put the billy goat in the wagon.
(I) And then we got these ponies, I was about ten then, and you were 12, and we terrorized the neighborhood with animals.
(AL adds) Not always with billy goats, you had chickens too, remember? (I) Yeah, we had chickens. We had a real farm.
(AL) And you had one old rooster that used to come up in our backyard. That rooster used to run right up in the back of the house.
(B) Yeah, every morning, right on time. We had corn out there. It was a real farm in a small area in the city. But what was embarassing, though, was when the goat used to get loose. It would go into people's gardens and munch on their gardens. It was very embarrassing.
(I) I said we used to terrorize the neighborhood. This went on for like ten years.
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(AL) Didn't when year you all had a celebrity come down your house to ride that pony? What was his name?
(I) Sugar Child Robinson came to our house. This would be in 1946. We had a great time. He was one of these children who was very reserved, and they had keep him away from a lot of people, so he had a real great time coming down here.
(AL) I remember him riding that pony down the sidewalk. And what were them pony names? Merrily and Ginger?
(I) Yeah, Merrily stayed up in the Union Yards after he got older and after Ginger died. And we got older. And so therefore it was just one of those things that happened later on.
(AL) And when we lived on Norton Street, we had nice trees, right?
(I) That's right. We had nice trees, and people had nice yards, and there was a stream on around there, and people owned there own property. And people had respect for other people's property.
(B) How many people can you name that used to live around there?
(I) I can name a lot of people. I don't know if you got enough time for this. I remember Georgia, who used to live on Catherine Street, and her husband Mr. Singleton, and I remember Robinson, Mander Robinson.
(AL) Mander lived next door to James house. Yes, James and Viola. And then Viola got married.
(I) And Viola used to live up in Norton street. #808.
(AL) Yeah, right next door to Miss Hester's.
(I) How about Mr. Ruckle? What relation was he?
(AL) My uncle.
(I) What was he, your mother's brother?
(AL) No, he was married to my daddy's sister. Maidy Ruckle.
(I) He used to work up at the lumber yard. Up on the Boulevard. I forgot the name of that lumber yard.
(miscellaneous chatter about he location of the lumber yard)
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(I) How about Miss Eva and Miss Williams? Miss Williams used to teach school and her sister Eva. They lived next door to us. There was Miss Davis on the other side. Miss Davis used to live next door to you.
(AL) She was a witch. She was about my height but she weighed far less than I do.
(I) Miss Ainsley used to live across the hall, and under her was Mr. Hubbard, I can't remember his wife's name, and across the hall from them was James Jr. and Mary Thomas, and then there was the Goodmans who lived up there. Ann Goodman and her sister.
(AL) Wasn't it Laney? I ran into her about a month ago. She's back in Richmond. She went to Florida for a while, but she's back now. She's as tall as basis is, and twice as big.
(I) Oh no. And remember that lady who had all them dogs? Miss Nellie. Do you remember her? (AL) Yes I do.
(I) I thought you'd be too young to remember her. She used to smoke all them Domino cigarettes. She'd sit up on the porch and smoke Domino cigarettes, and send us to the store to get her more cigarettes. You couldn't do that today. We used to wait for her every day so we could get her nickel or dime every day, cause she used to pay a nickel or dime for somebody to go get her cigarettes, a pack of cigarettes. And she had all those dogs.
(AL) She used to sell them. She used to be a dog seller.
(I) Did she? I know she used to have spitz. Little white spitz. And next door to her was the Hermans. Boy did they have an immaculate home. Linwood and Jessie Ray. And Mr. Hughes used to have the lawn out there. Do you remember he used to block off Norton Street and have a party?
(AL) Yeah, a block party.
(I) Yeah, he'd block off Leigh Street to Clay Street. He'd block it off.
(AL) I can remember one time they had a race, and somebody was carrying me into the house.
(I) I thought you'd be too young to remember that. I remember Miss Smith. Do you remember Miss Smith? She lived right there on the corner. She was related to a wealthy Randolph.
(AL) Really? I didn't know that. But I know Miss Louise bought Miss Smith's house. And she moved over there. And she stayed there a long time, until late in the 50s, maybe longer than that, because we moved up on Clay Street in the 60s, and she was still there. And then I think she sold the house and moved when Jimmy went into the service.
(I) Is that right?
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(AL) Yes. And she went up to the west end. Then Junior bought another house in the west end. And then she's over in a high rise in Southside. Then Junior sold the house and moved down in Varina. He has a wife now, and a little boy about 12.
(I) Is that right? Remember when that dry goods store used to be at Norton and Leigh and we used to dress the windows up for Christmas? Ooh that was fun. Elmer's dry goods store. An owner by the name of Harley. And Grossman was on the other corner. And he had a son by the name of Gilbert. And the people would go in Grossman's store and drink, and after they got drunk, then the Black Mariah, they used to call it Black Mariah, would come up there and pick them up and take them downtown. And the man who used to stand on the back of the Black Mariah, Billy on the back, he'd stand on the platform in the back going down to Smith and Marshall. And then coming out from behind Grossman's store there was Mrs. Shelton. Remember Miss Shelton? She had dogs too. Mr. And Mrs. Shelton. Remember them? Right on the corner of two alleys. Miss Shelton, then Miss Ward, then the Barretts, then Mr. Wilkinson, then Miss Pearl. Pearl, what was her last name? Bailey. She was Chuck and Edith's mother. She was down on the corner of Calpert and Norton. . And then Mary who lived there, Mary Ellis, she lived with Miss Wilkinson. I was thinking about the other Mary, she had a daughter named, no she had two daughters, Edna and?
(AL) Edna and Barbara Jean. They were some kin to Miss Edith too. (I) That's right.
(AL) Miss Pearl was a grandmother I believe. I should remember that because she used to dress the chickens for Mr. Simms.
(I) She sure did.
(AL) Who was that? James Fillmore.
(I) Roland Walker used to work there too, remember? And before that it was Jake . And before that it was, let me, what was his name, he had a sister who was a nurse who used to live down on Clay Street. You remember, Charles Anderson. He used to have a sister named...
(AL) Ethyl Ann. They used to live next to Sam's Store.
(I) Sam's Delicatessen store. And then there was Charlie Perrin, who lived up there on Clay Street. Norton and Clay. And Miss Banks. She used to teach over at Armstrong.
(AL) Where did she live?
(I) She lived over next to Roland Walker, in the 1200 block. She used to teach at Armstrong. Every morning she'd come around that corner with her granddaughter, she used to take her to school, and her husband owned a filling station on Street, an Amoco Station. Then there was Lonnie Gorham, Mr. Gorham, he graduated from Armstrong in 1945. Then next door to him
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was Mr. Tinsley. His mother used to make aprons for his wife. And on the opposite corner was Mrs. Paintner. And they had a sign named Charlie Pine. They used to give ice out at the corner with a wagon. And we used to go up there to get coal for the heater when the coal car would come. And if you got to close a man would run you away "Get away from there boy. Leave that coal alone." That coal would come off of that conveyor. Remember that? Into the hopper car. And the coal that would fall off the conveyor we used to go up there and get.
(AL) Nowadays up there it seems like everything has changed.
(I) They built that building up there at Tomlin Street. Used to be a field up there. With fruit trees. There was a house up there too One house. Mr. Abbott.
(AL) I never knew who Mr. Abbott was, but I knew that was where he lived. Remember the time the horse fell in the woodhouse? Remember that horse came up the alley, right up on top of the wood house and went right down in there? They had to take a crane and get him out of there.
(I) Is that right?
(AL) Yeah. I don't know whose horse it was or where it came from. But anyway, I know that was a big thing. They want to know now, what up there has changed and what you think has caused the change.
(I) Well, at what used to be the RF&P, there was a warehouse up there, and that now is VCU's gymnasium, and across the street from there was a plumbing supply place, and further down was Richmond ice company. All that's changed now, I don't know exactly what that is now. The economy brings about change. Everything now you got buttons for. You got your refrigerators. The economy. When World War II came that's when the change came about. When the economy stayed down all of us were able to live better and do much better. During that time we were very poor and we didn't know how poor we were.
(B) The whole city has changed. This move from the city to the counties, this flight from the cities to the counties now, has really hurt the cities, because all the department stores have moved now and gone out of business. They had a trestle that led from Richmond Glass Company. You could go upstairs in Richmond Glass Company and catch the street car. And that street car would take you across the trestle over to Brook Road. Out Brook Road all the way to Ashland.
(AL) Now, in order to get to Ashland you've got to drive. (I) Well you can go by train.
(AL) And I'll tell you another thing. They run a lot of people out of the neighborhood when they brought in the turnpike. Because the turnpike went through the west end, through this side, through the north side. Every which way. A lot of people who owned their houses lost them.
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(I) It split the Black community right in two.
(B) When we were little they used to call them drugstores, but they don't call them drugstores anymore. They call them pharmacies now. We used to carry drugs when we were kids, drugs from the drugstore. We called our prescriptions drugs. Other changes have come about because of economics.
(AL) They want to know something on here about how segregation changed the neighborhood. What kind of segregation did we have growing up?
(B) Well, we had on the corners these Jewish stores. Grocery stores. And they had children. And they couldn't go to our schools. They had to bus them or take them by car to whatever school they went to, elementary schools. Of course we played with them. They didn't have anybody else to play with, so they had to play with us. I can remember many a day I'd go on down to Grossman's store and eat dinner with Gilbert and his grandmother. It was one of those things where the kids didn't have anybody else to play with.
(AL) And segregation was never a part of it.
(B) We didn't think a whole lot about segregation because we lived with it, and it just didn't bother us that much until later. These type of things never occurred to you. And then later on, when the fight for integration started, it was because of the job situation, we wanted better jobs, we wanted better housing, we wanted to be able to go where we want to go for entertainment, we wanted to be able to go to restaurants and eat like other people instead of being second class citizens. So that's what brought about his integration. And when that came about, then a lot of Black businesses folded, because the Black people went into the White neighborhoods to restaurants and to different kinds of food and entertainment and everything else, so naturally it just changed everything. As far as our way of living is concerned.
(AL) I think that's really what it was. This man wants to know how we've seen the role of women change in the community over the years. How about the role of men? Pretty much the same, isn't it?
(I) Well, you got better jobs. Everything changed. You had money that you didn't use to have. You could live better. You could move about. Money changes everything. Always did and always will.
(AL) Can you tell one story that captures the life in Carver from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s.
(I) That changed the face of Carver?
(AL) That's what they said. Oh, "Captures" the life.
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(I) Well, I can remember back in the early 40s, remember Rachel Jackson and all the Jackson sister and the Elba school children got up and sang "We want a George Washington Carver school" They used to sing that all the time to the superintendent of the schools. And all those white people would be around and we would have to sing it to let everyone know we wanted better schooling because that school we were in didn't even have indoor restrooms. No cafeteria, no auditorium, and a library about as big as my living room. So we wanted better living facilities and better schooling for the longest kind of time we used to sing "We want a George Washington Carver school". So they finally got it in 1950, wasn't it?
(AL) I don't know what year it was, I know it was the year when I went into the 7th grade, because we marched from Elba into Carver.
(I) Then it had to be 1951 or somewhere around there that we finally got that Carver school. And that's when the whole area came to be known as the Carver area.. Because before then they called it Central Richmond, and then later on come to find out it used to be known as Sheep Hill. I don't know where they got that from, they used to drive sheep or cattle from down 17th Street up Leigh Street to the stockyard. So it was cattle used to be going up and down Leigh Street, and they used to call it Sheep Hill, but that was something that came later in life that I learned about it. Because I didn't know that. And I never saw cattle being driven up there.
(AL) They tell us, where we live now, right there in the back alley there used to be a spring which means that every time it rains the alley sinks. In the 1400 block of Clay Street. The spring used to be right through there somewhere.
(I) And they had another spring down there on Harrison Street, because we used to go down there and go down these steps and get water down there. We sure did. Right there at Harrison and Catherine Streets. And right up the street there were a lot of springs up there in there. That's why they put the brewery in there. Richbrau. And they use spring water to make the beer. There's a number of springs in there. You walk around smelling all that stuff and didn't know why we were drunk. They were brewing mash. Brewing beer.
(AL) They brewed the beer on one side and train on the other.
(I) And right across the street from that was there power house. That thing made more noise...It would hum all day. All day long that thing would make noise. They got those big dynamos in there, and those things are throwing out power. Were you born during World War II when they used to have those air raids?
(AL) I can remember Mr. Castor.
(I) Yeah, Castor. On Clay Street. He had a horn. He'd go around there raising cain. (AL) He had that white helmet on.
(I) I didn't think you'd remember that.
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(AL) We could see him from our porch.
(I) He'd come in and tell you "Turn those lights out".
(AL) Turn out the lights. Well, I guess this about sums this one up.. I don't have any more questions.
(T. Davis) I have a question. What was the significance of the George Washington Carver song? What did Carver do that made you want to sing about his school?
(I) The significance? The significance was to let the superintendent of schools know and all these other people around who had the power to get a school for Blacks, you know, an elementary school because we didn't have any facilities, so we'd sing this song to them and just try to hand it to them over and over that we want a George Washington Carver school, elementary school.
(TD) But why use that name instead of Booker T. Washington?
(I) Because we already had a Booker T. Washington Junior High.. But we wanted an elementary school, and George Washington Carver was a Black scientist. And we just wanted an elementary school named after him, which we finally got in 1951.
(TD)So was Armstrong the only Black high school?
(I) Armstrong was the only Black high school until 1940, when they built Maggie Walker school, and then they had two Black high schools.
(TD) And how did that affect the community? Having two Black high schools?
(I) Oh, that was a great thing because there was a big rivalry between Armstrong and Walker schools. That was the biggest thing in Richmond during the Thanksgiving weekend. That drew more people than all the white colleges and all the white high schools in the whole area. Because that was a classic. And it went on until they changed the schools back in, what was it? 1960 or 1968 or something like that, when they incorporated the high schools like Marshall, Walker and Armstrong and Kennedy or something. They eventually closed Maggie Walker school, which ended the classics we used to have. But that was the biggest event in Richmond every year, bigger than anything else.
(TD) And did that bring a lot of business to the Carver neighborhood?
(I) It brought a lot of business, yes, to the Black neighborhood. All the Black neighborhoods, not just the Carver area, like Northside and east end and everywhere else. To all the Black neighborhoods it brought business. Like I said, after integration, all of this just changed.
(TD) What about some of the movements, the civil rights movement, how did that affect the neighborhood?
(AL)Was there any meetings in the neighborhood? What went on?
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(I) Well, the only meetings that I knew about were up at Virginia Union, and that was to sit down at the lunch counters. They were only going to let certain people do it — I wanted to do it, but they claimed I was too hotheaded. Because somebody spits on me, I'm going to war. You had to be trained how to handle the situation like this, because you're going to be called names and spit on, and everything else, so those were the reasons. The only place I know of that they had those types of meetings was at Virginia Union.
(AL) I have a question. What kind of role did Reverend Hancock play in this stuff? You know, he was a Virginia Union professor, right?
(I) I went to Moore Street Church, so I don't have any idea. I never heard of him doing anything as far as I'm concerned.
(AL) Why I ask though is because they had a thing in the paper about him not too long ago. A whole page on him during black history month. A lot of stuff in there that I never knew about him. We living in the neighborhood never knew the stuff we knew about him. It should have been known in and around the neighborhood. I was a member of the church, but we didn't get the information either.
(I) You would think that they would at least have mentioned what he was doing. They didn't mention meetings or anything else going on at that particular time.
(TD)Before 195 was built, how far did the Carver community extend? (I) The Carver community extended down to Brook Avenue, didn't it Bark?
(B) But it wasn't known then as the Carver community. It didn't get that name until after the school was built. So therefore it wasn't known as the Carver community, it was just a part of Jackson Ward, Central Richmond.
(AL) That's the way I always understood it.
(B) See there were some streets back there that they did away with once they built those homes back there. What did they call those houses back there?
(AL) Hartshorn homes
(B) There were some streets back there between Moore Street, there was a little street called Shorten Norton, which was a continuation of the street that we used to live on. After you crossed Leigh Street you couldn't go straight through, you'd have to go down to Harrison or either up to Kinney and come around to get to this street, which was only one block, and they called it Shorten Norton. Then there was another street between Moore Street and Leigh Street, it was Williams Street.
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(I) That street was done away with. There used to be a stable along there down off of Leigh Street also. All those things were done away with once this change came about. The turnpike took that stable. And the laundry also. There was a laundry down there. It was on Brook Road. There was a coal yard. And a Frank Knott scrap-iron place, but they're still there.
(AL) And across from that now they have the police horses.
(I) They have a stable down there that houses the police horses. That was just a little piece that was left after they cut the highway through.
(AL) And they couldn't actually put anything there.
(B) There was talk, I don't know how true it was but it must be true, that Frank Knott told them, when they were building that 95, that there was supposed to be a ramp on Belvidere Street down in 95 North, so if you were traveling south on Chamberlayne you could get on this ramp and go north on 95. And Frank Knott told them you're not coming through here with that ramp, and they built a fence all around Frank Knott's place, so you can't get on 95 North if you are coming down Chamberlayne unless you go around several blocks and are traveling north on Chamberlayne to get on 95. That's another thing that money will do. Yes indeed.
(TD)Do you remember any tragic stories that affected the community that left the community in a standstill? For example the book I read Coming of Age by Ann Moody, where she said somebody's whole house was burned by the Klan, and the family was in it, and how that changed her outlook on the civil rights movement. Do you remember any stories such as that?
(I) I don't know of any stories such as that, but people are just devastated when houses are burning down.
(TD)Or any incidents similar, not just houses burning down.
(I) Any tragic incidents you're talking about. I can't recall any myself. I think we're blessed that we can't recall any.
(TD)And the last question, with this being so close to Christmas, how was the Christmas in the neighborhood?
(I) Now we were children then. And Christmas is always great when you're a child. We were kind of a close neighborhood, and whenever Christmas day came, people would go to each others houses, you know the kids did, to see what kind of toys the others got and that sort thing. I guess that happens in all communities. But we always had great Christmases. I can't even remember a bad Christmas ever.
(AL) I got one more question I want to ask you. Do you remember that train you had sitting up there?
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(B) I still have it. Yep. And we didn't have any key to our door. We just walked in and out. We never had a key to our door, our house was never locked. Anybody could just walk in and out the door.
(AL) They had a lot of trains and a lot of track. That train track would fill this room, wouldn't it?
(B) Well about half this room. I kept adding to the table.
(AL) That was one of the main things I remembered about your house. (B) See we used to have a lot of fun.
(AL) Well that old street is all boarded up now. I think there's one house still, where Miss Davis used to live.
(B) I don't know if anybody is even living there.
(AL) That's the only house on that side of the street that anybody is living in. (B) And Herndons. I don't know who is living in Herndons house.
(AL) She's on committee with me. Ms. Johnson. She's a retired teacher. (B) I'm glad somebody lives there.
(AL) She said she was retired from somewhere around here, but I don't remember her, I really don't remember her.
(B) Whereabouts did she live?
(AL) I thought she said on Hancock Street. Now I didn't remember but Hancock Street really isn't that long. I don't remember her.
(I) I used to live on Hancock Street and I didn't know a lot people there. I just knew the people in that block.
(AL) She said she kind of grew up on Hancock Street. But I don't remember her. She just retired last year.
(more miscellaneous chatter about the woman's appearance)
(B) I never thought I would be afraid to get out of my car and walk up and down the street I was born and raised on.. One time I got out of my car and I walked up Catherine Street, around to the back of my house, and I don't know where these hoodlums came from, I think they came from out of the woodwork, I was surrounded by a bunch of hoodlums, and they were asking me all
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kinds of questions, I told them I was born and raised in this house. I don't remember what they were asking me, all kinds of crazy stuff, but I never did anything like that again. Because that whole area has just changed.
(AL) They keep asking us what we want to see in the neighborhood in the next ten years or so, and I keep telling them put houses back up there, put people back there. Decent people, you know. And one's that live a decent life. They can restore those apartments or they can put them in housing. Just so they make it inhabitable. So that you can have some decent
people down there so that once again it can look like a neighborhood. I would love to see that.
(B) But there are some steps. You have to go up one set of steps, then another set of steps, then another set of steps. You'll have a five-story building before you're done, I mean way up in the air.
(AL) I'm telling you, the breezes are nice in the summer time.
(I) Remember all those steps you had to go up? So you're not from Richmond. (TD)I'm from Richmond. I was raised in Gilpin Court.
(B) I remember when they built Gilpin Court. It was nice. It was 1945. Ooh, you talk about lovely. (Everybody is talking here at once, and it is impossible to discern distinct lines.) People were clamoring to get in.
(I) Gilpin Court was built during the war, wasn't it? And right after the war it was opened. That was a tragedy when that house blew up. It was gas. Because they had gas refrigerators and everything was gas. I don't' know what happened, but it blew up.
(AL) Did anybody get hurt?
(I) I don't think anybody got hurt.
(AL) But it made people think twice about moving into the projects. And at that time we didn't call them projects, they were called Courts. And they actually were sort of like courts.
(I) And they were nice. You didn't have incidents like you got now. All these courts are like that today.
(B) I think its still nice today. But people put this perception, this stigma, on it. But its just as nice today as any other neighborhood. Just because one or two individuals, you got rotten eggs in a dozen eggs. It's not bad, but its just a fact. The drug situation made all the neighborhoods change everywhere. I don't care where it is. You got people like that in Windsor farms. Only thing, they come in our area and buy it, then they go back to their area, and they put the stigma on our area.
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(I) They've always had drugs. We just never had the money to get them. You take these rich white people, they have cocaine sniffing in their house and at meetings and places. They always had drugs, we just didn't know anything about it. We couldn't afford anything like that. It was a luxury. But that was funny, during those times you had bootlegging. They used to run around the block on Saturday night. The police couldn't catch them, they just kept laughing at each other. Circling the block. It was like kids out there playing. We used to have to run up on the porch. I imagine they'd be doing like 40 miles per hour. But it seemed fast to us.
(B) It was fast, because they'd be going around the corners.
(AL) Do you all remember when they used to come crossing over the streets and the car would come bouncing up onto the sidewalk and they'd be chasing. We'd be upstairs and we could see it.
(B) Remember Emmett? He used to drive that ice truck? He'd come around the corner on two wheels in an ice truck..
(I) Dickie Boy had an ice wagon. And he thought he was a cowboy. He had on a cowboy hat and two ice picks. Like holsters. Like he had two guns. Nickel a piece of ice.
(B) And then they built Gilpin Court and people didn't need iceboxes. That was really fantastic. And then they had the black drugstore. They don't have them any more. Doctor Chaney's. They had Doctor Jackson's down at Goshen and Leigh. They had Doctor somebody down at Brook Avenue and Leigh. They had three black drug stores. But now they only have one. Their gone now. All the competition now. Walgreens, Rite Aid and Eckerds. All the competition now.
(AL) And drugstores selling everything but drugs.
(B) Yeah a lot of everything. And another thing they've done is no more service stations. They used to have, you drive in your car, and the people would come out and check your tires, check your battery, your water, your oil, they don't do that stuff anymore. They don't even put your gas in. Nowadays they don't do anything like that. You got to pump your own gas and do anything. Do you have any more questions?
(TD)No.
(B) Well I certainly appreciate this.
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