If I kiss my wife, that obviously signifies that I love my wife. There is only one of her, so there can be no confusion.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

No, the picture is just a symbol, and one of many such. You could destroy that picture and I wouldn't much care, because I can always get another.

What if that picture was the only one you had and you couldn't get another?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

So if there were one particular cross that all Christians venerate, you might accuse them of worshipping an idol. But because there are many such crosses, the cross itself is obviously not the thing being worshipped.

So following your analogy, assuming you have only one picture and you are not able to produce another, I can therefore accuse you of worshipping the picture every time you kiss it, because you only have one.

Furthermore, you said that the cross is equivalent to a picture because they are both symbols that represent something else. And that the stone is equivalent to your wife (ie. not a symbol) because they represent themselves. But then you said...

Originally posted by Ron Webb

But I agree, the Black Stone is not shirk. It is just a focus of worship, or at best a symbol of God's presence.

You're clearly contradicting yourself. So if the stone is a symbol (as you suggested above), your whole analogy falls flat on it's face.

Indeed your analogy is very inconsistent. There is no need to over analyse. It's really very simple. Both objects, the stone and the cross are lifeless objects that represent a particular following, and both are being kissed. That's all there is to it.

Muslims look at the stone as a lifeless symbol of the truth, a symbol of hope and a reminder of our Creator (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And that's precisely how the christians look at the cross.

This is very suspensions! It seems that "Ron Webb" has some serious connections here! He lost the argument, didn't respond for 4 days and then just like that the posts are gone! Well well well...

Hey, I'm allowed a short vacation, aren't I?

To be honest, I've forgotten exactly where we left off here, but I don't recall losing the argument. As for the deleted posts, the admins are reporting a glitch in the system that lost ten days worth of messages. Not my doing, I promise you.

What if that picture was the only one you had and you couldn't get another?

Then it would be more valuable to me, but it still wouldn't be an idol.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

So if there were one particular cross that all Christians venerate, you might accuse them of worshipping an idol. But because there are many such crosses, the cross itself is obviously not the thing being worshipped.

So following your analogy, assuming you have only one picture and you are not able to produce another, I can therefore accuse you of worshipping the picture every time you kiss it, because you only have one.

Classic fallacy of affirming the consequent. I said that if it's truly an idol (i.e. truly the object of worship), then it must be unique. I didn't say that if it is unique, then it must be an idol.

(When I said "you might accuse them of worshipping an idol", I meant only that it's possible, i.e. that uniqueness neither proves nor disproves it. I'll admit that I wasn't very clear.)

Furthermore, you said that the cross is equivalent to a picture because they are both symbols that represent something else. And that the stone is equivalent to your wife (ie. not a symbol) because they represent themselves.

Nope. I never said that the stone is not a symbol. I agree that it is just a symbol. If I recall correctly, I was pointing out that just because Muslims kiss it, or just because Christians kiss a cross, doesn't make either the stone of the cross an idol.

Muslims look at the stone as a lifeless symbol of the truth, a symbol of hope and a reminder of our Creator (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And that's precisely how the christians look at the cross.

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