"Again, do you have sources that disprove the central idea of the quotes??????"

So you are basing your opinion of democracies on a cobbled together, misattributed quote?

Like I said, a mile wide and and inch deep.

As to the truth of the statement, the Roman Republic lasted 500 years, 2 1/2 times the "lifecycle."

Other than that, there is not a whole lot of history, because the democratic form of government did not become widespread until the late 18th century. So we really haven't had enough time, for the most part, to test the 200 year question...

Fullerton CA

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"After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing"

TBR and Fun don't want to discuss the meat of it.

Pittsburgh PA

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"The quote itself seems to come from two different sources. "

Did I say differently???? The two quotes together are commonly know as 'The Life cycle of a Democracy'. I'm well aware of the history of both. I'm sure, just like Obama's BC, that somebody in 1951 made up the source. If you read what little exists today of his works, it's very plausible that the quote is his.

Again, do you have sources that disprove the central idea of the quotes??????

Pittsburgh PA

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"But I do know that unions rarely (if ever) back down. They dig in and don't budge. They take and take and take but never want to concede or give back."

You're kidding right? Just about every union in existence has taken concessions. Auto workers, the airline industries, manufacturing. The only ones I see that don't are teachers.

Pittsburgh PA

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"As I see it, the biggest problems with unions is they limit what you can make. :-)"

Absolutely not true. Contracted negotiated wages between a company and a union are the minimum a company can pay, not the maximum. Some contracts even have an incentive clause. There were people in my company, including myself who, at some point, made more then the negotiated wage. Again it all comes down to the company. they are the ones who can reward or choose to step on their employees for the sake of the almighty dollar.

Cape Coral FL

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Cplo:

Consessions are taking a small loss, not halting everything in less than a decade. 48,000 to the low 20k wages. Cutting or eliminating benefits, ect. The union workers already did this and like most every union worker knows, once you allow the employers to keep crying poverty, they will never stop crying poverty while they rake in the money.

This is why the personal incomes if managment ought to be open to the unions during the negotiations. This way you can say legitly that you are being placed into the poor house... Anything less is simply you (managment) trying to pull the wool over the unions eyes.

So now we all get to pay into these people's unemployment. Personally I believe that given the mentality if the employers these days and the spiteful actions from employers like popa john, that unemployment should be perminate until a job of equal pay/benefits is obtained for the worker.

If we want to keep fostering greedy employers, than we should suffer for this environment we encourage.

Hazle Township PA

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"Well, the first paragraph of the OP is generally attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler. He studied Greece and Rome as well as others. "

The quote has been attributed to at least a half dozen authors, including Arnold Toynbee, Alexander Tyler, Lord Thomas Macaulay, Benjamin Disraeli, Alexis de Tocqueville, and Lord Woodhouselee.

And a search finds the first instance of this appearing in print as 1951.

The quote itself seems to come from two different sources.

But it is in keeping with the rest of your beliefs. A mile wide and an inch deep...

Fullerton CA

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"In an ideal world, the workers would care about the company as much as their paychecks and the bosses would care about the employees as much as they care about the company."

Unfortunately that "ideal world" is not going to happen. There will always be disgruntled employees no matter how well they are treated, but I honestly believe it starts with the company. Basic human nature says that if you are treated with respect you will return that respect. I worked for only one company and over the years had three different bosses. Of the three there was only one I would have gone through hell and high water for. That is not to say I hated the other two, but they simply did not have the ability to command respect the one had.

Cape Coral FL

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"But the bottom line is that the company was on the ropes and needed help. I know they were asking the union to take pretty big cuts, especially when it came to pensions."

From what I understand concessions were made during the previous contract negotiations and still nothing improved as management continued bad business policies. I understand a lot of people will be out of work, but it was their vote. They were the ones working under the company's conditions not you or I. Sometimes not working at all is better then being humiliated and that seems to be the case here.

Cape Coral FL

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But if your place of employment has a union and you aren't part if it, your plight is worthless.

Really? 18500 workers lost their job because 5000 workers werent willing to sacrifice for a couple of years so that everyone could stay employed? That is greed.