If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Swordfish Commercial Permit Concept

As expected HMS sent AP members a copy of the GC proposal today to review before next weeks meetings. It covers all the potential aspects of a new permit.

What's disturbing about this proposal is that it appears the driving factor is to give less fortunate fisherman an opportunity to enter the fishery due to current limited access permits being expensive. Could there be any better way to fck fisherman with historical financial investment other than making their permits worthless. This is why the US can not get fisherman to invest in a fishery that is experiencing increased harvest and market price.

In an attempt to "mitigate" losses to current permit holders, the proposal is to limit a new permit to between 0-6 fish per trip, thus allowing current commercial fisherman a harvest advantage. One has to wonder if they look at their own logbook data and the fact that buoy and commercial daytime vessel's harvest less than 6 fish per trip.

funny part is there is a catch to this.. you have to have the talent of knowing how to fish, you have to get your happy ass outta bed ( a lot of time on the water! ) , you have to buy the gear, deal with weather.. ice your fish.. wow the list of how to or what you have to do is long and then you deal with ( weather messing with your gear again..) and finding a lucky rabbits foot and people who will buy your catch where you can pay for fuel.. I think there is a bunch more to it that most will never see till they get one..

Add in a Florida Products License in order to be able to sell, and since Swords are a restricted species the Products License will come with an income requirement but forgetting that it is still a really rotten proposal for the exact reasons Vinny wrote. REAL commercial fishermen have spent so much money and now will have additional competition from weekend wannabees that simply want to sell fish to offset recreational trip costs not to mention commercial out of state boats that will be wintering down here. This is not going to be good. Harry

You still need to tell me why a boat would spend over $1000 traveling to Florida from the Carolinas to catch Swords. Not exactly worth it when the weather sucks 9 out of 10 days. I don't think its a matter of out of state guys, but a matter of in state guys. Like it or not its not going to be Carolina boys or New England guys catching your fish, its going to be your friends/neighbors.

To be honest I dont know this issue very well so go easy on me, but isnt the intent of the proposal to increase the reported sword landings so the US doenst lose share to foreign countries?
Or is there more to it than that?

A) I would rather see the quota stay in the law abiding United States, rather than it going to a Med. Nation with less strict regulations.

B) Its not going to be a big rush from northern boats to come down here, it is going to be fellow fishermen from the state of FLorida.

C) Its a healthy stock, why are Gen Cat fishermen declined the right to catch them?? Rec boats can go out every trip and potentially take 4 fish. THere are many more rec boats than comm boats. Its not a "wholesale" kill, like many believe.

Ask yourself, would you rather the US quota be given to less regulated nations??? This will also give managers a better assessment of what is caught.

I want to know this what makes the swordfish a recreational fisherman's?? Is this country not founded upon equality?? If they open it up to GC then they probably will not allow GC to use buoy gear, thus keeping buoy permits in value. Its a stock in better shape than the BFT, but is more restricted. That makes no sense. If the Gen cat hasn't wiped out the BFT, its not going to wipe out swords. Compare these two fishes biology and you tell me which one should be more restricted.

To be honest I dont know this issue very well so go easy on me, but isnt the intent of the proposal to increase the reported sword landings so the US doenst lose share to foreign countries?
Or is there more to it than that?

yes... that's seems to be the intent Ed. But with every action, there will be a reaction and in this case, it means the American Commercial fisherman will loose.

Yellowfin,
If you already have a commercially registered boat sitting at the dock in the Carolinas, or better on a trailer somewhere up the coast, and the cost of a GC permit and Florida Products License is minimal why would you think it NOT worth the expense at give Florida Daytime Swordfishing a try? Yes, we will have more local boats becoming "commercial fishermen" but we are definitely going to see out of states boats in this area. The guys that paid 30K for permits will now see more fish in the local markets and thus lower prices. If that is not competition, and harmful to them, I don't know what is. Harry

Is it really worth it for them to spend $1000 in fuel to get down here from North Carolina, and $3000 to get up to Massachusetts from here for June 1st??? Thats $4000 in fuel, never-mind ice, bait, tackle, wiring boats for electrics, dockage, etc.. Do the math out that is not financially worth it. Many of the giant boats from the north east are also charter boats. Why come down here when you could run charters out of NC and do extremely well bluefin tuna fishing. Look at the canyon runner as an example. Staying up there they can get $1500+ a day when running charters. So why would those boats come down here to fish swords?? Think about the shear logistics. They would be better off staying in NC and fishing the other side of the Gulf Stream for yellowfin tuna.

Harry do you want the US quota to be given away??? I don't. I would like to see it stay in the US. Look at the video of hundreds of baby swords dead. I don't want more of that. Its sickening.

Burt,
Texas - what a great idea. Might be problematic. The Desoto Canyon, where I believe they were fishing, has some strict commercial regulations. I know for certain there is an area in the Canyon closed to Longlines and Buoys and am not certain about day dropping and selling swordfish fish at all. I know there is a small fleet of small boats out of the Tarpon Springs area that LL swords but the section of water they can fish in is very small. I'm sure there is a reason the Booby Trap does not have some kind of permit that would have made those fish available to be sold.

Yellowfin,
NO - I do not want to see the quota being given away but fish from the Straits is not going to fill it. Do you have any idea how many swords are discarded in the NE during the course of YFT fishing because they can only retain an "incidental" catch under their permits. It means like a single incidental swordfish for a boat load of YFT. Why can't those fish be retained and added to the catch to close the shortfall in filling our quota? I saw what over fishing did to this area years ago and can easily see it happening again.

Have you looked at some of the huge fish being caught lately and how small the boats are that caught them. Trailering a small center console down from - well from anywhere - would easily be offset by one decent fish going to market. 300# core - $5-$6 per pound, if not more at certain times of the year - not saying it's easy or a way to make a fast buck but we don't need more boats grinding it out on a 20 mile stretch of water day in and day out.

I don't know the last time you have been out there during the day, or how often you go, but in just the last 6 months there has been a pronounced increase in the number of boats sword fishing. Throw in a GC permit and watch what happens. When you see it happen then your attitude will change. Do the guys who spent 30K for a permit get any consideration at all? Harry

A GC permit may be the perfect fit for Texas and the rest of the Gulf as well as the Mid-Atlantic and NE, but there is not a single person who currently fishes in South Florida that can say we need more pressure on swordfish here.

Vin,
You are both 100% correct as well as 100% wrong. Correct in that if you know ANYTHING you realize we do not need a single boat more than we have out there now.
If you have no knowledge of what overfishing did before you can think it is a great idea and say so. What I am saying is people can say anything they want. understanding the issues and saying the right thing is another story. Just the fact that this issue is probably going to occur we already know there are people in the NMFS that are clueless. As you can see from some of the comments on the forum there are others that also don't undertand how fragile this small body of water that we fish in is and think it's a great idea.

I still want to know how they can trample the guys that paid high $$ for their right to sell swordfish by allowing cheap competition into the market that will lower prices to the entire fleet. That part seems to be the biggest "no brainer" of them all. Harry

Harry you realize they are taking all those things into account. I called a woman working with the team proposing the idea today. Call them yourself!!

Like it or not if we don't catch our quota someone else is going to. I would like the quota to stay in US possession where we have strong regs. It should be opened up to the gen cat in the right circumstances.

Why not Texas?

The fishing there is awesome, It somewhat reminds me of the resurgence here in South Florida. Hard to believe , but it was only about 10 years ago when a very small group of guys-Casey Hunt, Tim Maddox , and Eddie Wheeler rediscovered the sword bite was back on in South Florida.

The word got out and that was the genesis of the Sword Club. Next thing you knew was 3 guys started commercial fishing with "hand gear". Now there are at least 47!

Yellowfin,
If you don't understand the problem then as the saying goes you are probably in some way part of it. Other locations have vast areas where they can catch the fish. We have this small lane running parallel to the coast, and not even far offshore, so if you can't visualize what is going to happen then you have blinders on. Vinny said it so simply "no one fishing here can say we need more local pressure on the swordfish".

Just curious - who was the woman working on the team proposing the idea that you spoke to? What do you expect they are going to say to you - "sorry we are going to screw the guys that paid big $$ for their permits as well as screw up your delicate balance"? Get real!

There is not a delicate balance. The fish are rebuilt.
By them limiting the number of entrants in the southern region it will keep the value of the permits high, while opening up the fishery in other geographic regions to catch the remaining quota we did not catch last year. They are looking to set up regional management plans. Similar to the SEFMC, and NEFMC having their own plans, licenses, etc.
We need to get the fact out of our heads that this will destroy the Florida fishery because it is not going to. How else would you like to catch the remaining US quota Harry??? Its not going to just pop out of the sky and land of boats. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand... If we continue to not catch our quota it can and will be given away.

My ears are open give me an idea that will work?? Theres very few boats in the NE fishing the canyons exclusively. Almost every gen cat is fishing for BFT. The few boats that fish the canyons will not catch the remaining quota.

I said before the straits are small, look at my post before in a different thread of this. I said before limit the geographical region in which they can open up the fishery.

Ways i see the remaining quota caught.
-- Open the gen cat in the North, limit its use down here
-- Increase the harpoon quota/give out more licenses
-- Get more buoy guys to the North, but do not allow them to fish in the straits of Florida. Make it so they can only fish in the northern region. This would keep the price of permits in the south high.

Let's see what they come up with and if the Straits get any consideration for their uniqueness. I'd guess you are young and did not witness what over fishing in this area did in the past.

When they assess that the stock is "rebuilt" I would assume they base that on the total landings for the Atlantic Coast - correct? This might just sound so simple but if the stocks are in fact rebuilt why can't an adjustment in regulations for other, less sensitive areas, be made so those areas can help fill the quota? All I hear from the NE - where the BFT/YFT fishermen are pushing this GC permit issue is how many swords they have to release because they are not permitted to retain them as by-catch when targeting tuna. What's up with that? Those could be already dead fish that are being thrown back due to regulations. Let them fix that first before they open the Straits to more pressure. Harry

Without a doubt, South Florida will get special consideration in regard to catch limits within a General Category permit. The people at HMS understand that there are fisherman who have made substancial financial investment in the industry and they are applying a lot of thought to protect them.

Before everyone gets unglued either way with this proposal consider that 74% of our swordfish base quota without carry-overs from previous years is currently being caught. Any increase in harvest whether it be by increased effort or CPUE (better fishing) may have us scrambling to reduce catches in the future.

Recently ICCAT approved reducing the 29"CK swordfish length measurement to 25". NMFS is expected to pass the rule this summer. This does not mean that the swordfish size limit has decreased, it only makes the CK length comparable to the 47' lower jaw to fork of tail measurement. At the recent HMS AP meeting we were presented with a graph that indicated the amount of fish that fell between the 29" CK and 25" CK size frame that are currently being discarded. These are fish that in the past would have for the most part exceeded the 33 pound core limit that NMFS removed as a method to determine minimum size. Basically, that short fat 50 pound fish with a lower jaw measurement of 46'', will now be legal as long as it is over 25''CK. Not only will this allow for more fish to be retained, it may have a substancial impact on the frequency of buoy vessel trips since this size fish is a large part of the South Florida fishery reducing the risk of going backwards financially on slow nights.

As I said that rule will be published this summer and a GC rule if approved is looking more like the summer of 2013. That give HMS a year to look at the data to determine if any increase in harvest is necessary in regard to retaining the US ICCAT quota.

Thanks guys for a very interesting read. I'm a firm believer in regional regulations not a one size fits all regulations that are the norm now. There
are regional and temporal variability that needs to be better accounted for in
fishery regulations. Not an easy job because of the large amount of uncertainty
in the science, but a necessary job. cheers, O

The goal of scientists is to maximize what we know of the real world by using the mathematical world to optimize the information from the observed world.

Without a doubt, South Florida will get special consideration in regard to catch limits within a General Category permit. The people at HMS understand that there are fisherman who have made substancial financial investment in the industry and they are applying a lot of thought to protect them.

Before everyone gets unglued either way with this proposal consider that 74% of our swordfish base quota without carry-overs from previous years is currently being caught. Any increase in harvest whether it be by increased effort or CPUE (better fishing) may have us scrambling to reduce catches in the future.

Recently ICCAT approved reducing the 29"CK swordfish length measurement to 25". NMFS is expected to pass the rule this summer. This does not mean that the swordfish size limit has decreased, it only makes the CK length comparable to the 47' lower jaw to fork of tail measurement. At the recent HMS AP meeting we were presented with a graph that indicated the amount of fish that fell between the 29" CK and 25" CK size frame that are currently being discarded. These are fish that in the past would have for the most part exceeded the 33 pound core limit that NMFS removed as a method to determine minimum size. Basically, that short fat 50 pound fish with a lower jaw measurement of 46'', will now be legal as long as it is over 25''CK. Not only will this allow for more fish to be retained, it may have a substancial impact on the frequency of buoy vessel trips since this size fish is a large part of the South Florida fishery reducing the risk of going backwards financially on slow nights.

As I said that rule will be published this summer and a GC rule if approved is looking more like the summer of 2013. That give HMS a year to look at the data to determine if any increase in harvest is necessary in regard to retaining the US ICCAT quota.