Hey there, thanks for the messages. I understood completely with you about the reporting of the buses and I'm really glad you handled it that way. We should keep the message that I sent you on record, it does show how far ahead we were and also that we are more responsible than others who might just have started whipping things up, which I think the pros would expect us to do. I don't quite remember the sequence but know that I was completely inclined to disbelieve the information myself as well, I think at one point I scrubbed it out and put 'or a car'. About the adminship, it would be nice to be nominated some time and to be able to block people if necessary but I think I need to get to know some more about the place and know more people before I could take on all the wider responsibilities, plus I don't like being rejected :) ClareWhite 09:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I've started a discussion on the atercooler which relates to the discussion on the mainpage. Could you take a look: I think you have a better handle on it than I do and it will have a big effect on the Portal development. I think... ClareWhite 08:55, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind offer, don't mind your forgetting, eh, anyway every moving can be restored on MediaWiki ;-) I accept your offer gratefully, and hope there will be no necessary we repeat a same talk on another project. --Aphaia 10:51, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Can I create Quaker as a sub-category for Religion? If I can, I might have a pilot Portal in the making what with two major Quaker events coming up in the next month... ClareWhite 11:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh right, um, just start putting category:Quaker on the articles. For the portal bit, you could use a DynamicPageList. When I set one up, I go to Rwanda, edit the page, copy the code, paste the text into a new page (eg "Quakers"?), then change where it says category=Rwanda to whatever I want, then save it. Dan100 (Talk) 11:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

...and am I right about Develop/Publish just referring to articles on the main page or does it need to go on everything? ie if I was to categorise something as Quaker would it just go on that page? ClareWhite 11:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

For that bit the "local idea" I've been blathering on about for the last week or two might come in handy. Part of my idea is to have a {{publish local}}, and include a category=publishlocal in the DPLs of "local" portals. That way really localised stories would go in the right place, but not on the Main Page. Mind you, I've been doing a good job of talking myself out of that recently, saying that all news deserves being presented on an equal footing on the Main Page... Dan100 (Talk) 11:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Really though it depends on what's in the DynamicPageList. If it just says (eg) category=Quaker, everything with category:Quaker on it will appear there. However, if it also has category=published in it, then only articles with both category:Quaker and category:published will appear. My idea above was basically a way to be able "publish" "local" stuff on Portals, but not have them appear on the Main Page. It's up to you what you put in... Dan100 (Talk) 11:38, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, Dan. I'm sorry you felt that the piece fell short of the wikinews NPOV policy, which of course I support. I note your additions to the opening paragraphs, and I'm pleased that Wikinews is running this story. I do, however, feel that your use of the term "bias" is an exaggeration. I feel that I stated the relevant facts fairly and proportionately and I thought it might help if I outlined my reasoning on this issue.

Although a nominal "agreement" was made between the RPA and CNC, it's clear that RPA had no choice but to accept it. It therefore seems quite accurate to say, as I did, that the CNC took the station of the air.

I think that there's an issue of consistency here, and a danger of "unwitting bias" against countries like Burundi. Imagine if our own government decided to block Wikinews for two days, or take Radio 3 off the air (having originally tried to ban the media outlet indefinitely) on the basis that they believed some news coverage to have been biased. And imagine if this formed part of a consistent pattern where people linked to the outlet had been beaten up, arrested without charge and in some cases killed. I think that we'd say, as the CPJ and Reporters Sans Frontieres have often done in the case of RPA versus the Burundian government, that this was a clear violation of international norms on press freedom.

Banning a major radio station for any period of time is an extreme measure for any government to take. That for me is the real story here, and I've merely tried to report it as I would had it happened in my own country. If "bias", real or imagined, was a legitimate reason for applying such a ban then I'd venture to suggest that half of the British media and most of the internet would be facing a ban!

Best regards,

Richard Wilson

Thanks for getting back to me Richard. (Perhaps you'd like to make an account?) It's not unprecedented for a European country to take a station off-air - France recently shut a TV station down (with justification) (we have an article about it somewhere). I'm not saying that makes it right for the CNC to have done what they did, just that it's not unprecedented.

We also can't say what we think happened, even if it's "clear". If we have someone from RPA on record as saying that, then we can quote them. Otherwise we need to stick to what we really know - which included the reasoning the CNC had presented, both for the recent ban and the older one. That's only fair to them, quite apart from it being demanded by the NPOV. As you can see, I then also added more of the RPA's views to maintain a neutral PoV.

Saying the story was "biased" was probably harsh, and I apologize for that, but it did need tweaking a bit. I also apologize for my tone on your talk page, which was uncalled for. Dan100 (Talk) 15:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

==Burundi story, part II

Apology accepted! Interesting comparison with France. I wasn't aware of the TV station ban there. The wikinews article I've just found says that this was a TV station accused of antisemitism. Obviously there are instances where countries can legitimately ban media but I'd maintain that they would still be extreme cases - ie. incitement to racial hatred/violence. RPA was not accused of either of those things. Ironically, their raison d'etre has been to defuse racial hatred and violence; until recently they were one of the few institutions in Burundi where Hutu and Tutsis worked together on a more or less equal footing.

The wider context to the RPA story is that the incumbent government, a transitional regime which still contains elements of the military dictatorship who ruled Burundi from 1993, has just faced the polls for the first time and been heavily defeated. But there's now this "waiting period" until early/mid August where the defeated FRODEBU government stumbles on before handing over power to the victorious FDD opposition. I'm guessing that that this slightly unusual delay is due to the unstable nature of Burundi's recent history - no-one wants to rush things too quickly and end up with another coup. But it creates a situation where a defeated (and some would say, embittered) government still has its hands on the levers of power. A number of commentators believe that President Ndayizeye is "getting back" while he can at those he blames for his electoral defeat. Regardless of Ndayizeye's bias claims, everyone I know with connections to Burundi has been saying for over a year that the FDD would win those elections hands down. The current government really is very unpopular. I think that the only person who was shocked by the result (such is the way of the world?) was Ndayizeye himself.

I'm sorry that this second article turned into a bit of an argy-bargy between us. My concern here really is not to appropriate others' work for myself. It's more that I've met some of the people affected by this case and want to do what I can to raise awareness of what's going on. Rcameronw

Current expolsion incidents reported here in U.S. note that it comes two-weeks to the day behind the July 7 bombings. Uncertain myself of proper UK wording to note that, but I believe that context should be added, ie:

Two-weeks to the day after the London July 7 tube and bus bombings, three tube stations in have been evacuated after 'incidents'. Emergency services have been called to Warren Street, Oval and Shepherd's Bush stations.

If "execution" is too strong a word; ok..but why delete the article...in development for heavens sake? Where is it now so I can fix it? And please Dan, I know if you wanted to be writing for Indymedia you'd be there already, so I'd never suggest it to you caus eI know you're not stupid. Paulrevere2005 22:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Because, as you well know Paul, "execute" is a highly emotive term and totally unjustified here. NPOV is non-negotiable. The title was irredeemable PoV so it could not be redirected, and there was nothing in your article that wasn't in the existing one. Deletion was the only option, really. Dan100 (Talk) 22:25, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi, bud. Thanks for not banning me again. I think this needs to go to the community...the way you are using admin deletion powers. Paulrevere2005 12:30, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

That's your opinion. However the policies of a neutral point of view and citing sources are non-negotiable. Dan100 (Talk) 13:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Dan, just a "heads-up". That deflective approach doesn't work with the new people here. If someone says; "Dan, you just abused your administrative power"..it no longer works to respond; "I think your POV is showing..shape up or leave the project"; and thereby shift the focus away from your infractions.

That may have worked awhile back, but not with these new guys..they're too smart for that type of sophmorish deflection. Paulrevere2005 19:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Paul, this is the last time I going to say this, NPOV is a Foundation policy. It is not optional. If the "new guys" don't like it, and they try and break it here on Wikinews, we'll simply be shut down. Dan100 (Talk) 22:12, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

These are the examples I could find by skimming through my contributions. I seem to remember even more instances, if I run across them I'll link to them. --RossKoepkeTalk 20:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

No problem Dan, we do all make mistakes, but this wasn't one you need to worry about. You did ask me to please send them to you, and in this situation, it's perfectly fine for the burden of proof to be on me. --RossKoepkeTalk 23:12, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Dan, why did you revert all of my page moves into the Portal namespace? The move was approved by the community, and the namespace was made on the 21st. Your revert moves were not approved nor discussed. -- NGerda 06:59, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Didn't realize I did that? Apologies. I actually thought someone had removed the section on "delete request nonsense". It takes so long for new edits to fully work their way through the water cooler system.You know what I mean? Paulrevere2005 23:02, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I figured it was an accident :-) Dan100 (Talk) 23:07, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I take it you took action on the comment I left on the admin page the other day re: London Artists Release Video etc...? I just wanted to discuss it a little further really. I'm assuming you agreed with my assessment of the article, do you think that I dealt with it in the best way or are there other channels I could follow to tackle this kind of thing?--Garysjp 11:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi I added a source to the The Mysterious disease kills 19 in China's Sichuan province that has a higher death count of 31. So the title of the current article is inaccurate the other sources are from 3 days ago. Is the best path to create a new article or move the existing article onto a new page?

Also should details that can change rapidly be used in a title?

Sorry for not replying sooner, the thing that is supposed to tell me when someone has left a message... didn't.

I'd suggest simply renaming the article as it was only published a few hours ago. Dan100 (Talk) 11:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing that, I got confused. Still, nice system! Would you be able to generisise the Quaker workspace so it can be moved onto any portal? Then all of them can have a workspace instead of a bureau ClareWhite 11:25, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

TBH, I'm not sure what's going on with this new portally thing. It all seems a bit confused - is it supposed to be a it's own little page, or is it part of the larger Wikinews whole? Dan100 (Talk) 11:31, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

In case you hadn't seen it, thought you might like to know that the Sunday Times ran a piece (31 July) on non-standard weaponary used by British "firearms police", citing it as evidence of military involvement. I have added a further note to the talk page on your report of the west London raids and arrests. Would be interested to hear any further comments or observations you may have.

Dan, why did you revert all of my page moves into the Portal namespace? The move was approved by the community, and the namespace was made on the 21st. Your revert moves were not approved nor discussed. -- NGerda 06:59, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Didn't realize I did that? Apologies. I actually thought someone had removed the section on "delete request nonsense". It takes so long for new edits to fully work their way through the water cooler system.You know what I mean? Paulrevere2005 23:02, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I figured it was an accident :-) Dan100 (Talk) 23:07, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I take it you took action on the comment I left on the admin page the other day re: London Artists Release Video etc...? I just wanted to discuss it a little further really. I'm assuming you agreed with my assessment of the article, do you think that I dealt with it in the best way or are there other channels I could follow to tackle this kind of thing?--Garysjp 11:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi I added a source to the The Mysterious disease kills 19 in China's Sichuan province that has a higher death count of 31. So the title of the current article is inaccurate the other sources are from 3 days ago. Is the best path to create a new article or move the existing article onto a new page?

Also should details that can change rapidly be used in a title?

Sorry for not replying sooner, the thing that is supposed to tell me when someone has left a message... didn't.

I'd suggest simply renaming the article as it was only published a few hours ago. Dan100 (Talk) 11:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing that, I got confused. Still, nice system! Would you be able to generisise the Quaker workspace so it can be moved onto any portal? Then all of them can have a workspace instead of a bureau ClareWhite 11:25, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

TBH, I'm not sure what's going on with this new portally thing. It all seems a bit confused - is it supposed to be a it's own little page, or is it part of the larger Wikinews whole? Dan100 (Talk) 11:31, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

In case you hadn't seen it, thought you might like to know that the Sunday Times ran a piece (31 July) on non-standard weaponary used by British "firearms police", citing it as evidence of military involvement. I have added a further note to the talk page on your report of the west London raids and arrests. Would be interested to hear any further comments or observations you may have.

Hello! I'm back. Quakers aren't up for much reporting it seems, but i'll keep trying... Were you at the IRC chat? The note on meta just says the portal discussion was 'indecisive', do you know more? ClareWhite 10:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Hello :-). I didn't really participate in the IRC but the discussion was exactly that really - 'indecisive'. I think it's just a question of "let's see how things go". Dan100 (Talk) 10:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Dan, obviously I know little about IRC but I remember you saying you thought it was better if Wikinews stuff be handled on wikinews. Is that concept now outdated? Should we continue to try to keep discussion here or should I start getting on IRC out of necessity..especially considering the "breqaking news" reference? Paulrevere2005 13:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I was really against the IRC discussion being held, made that clear to everyone involved, and basically abstained from the discussion itself. I don't believe any "decisions" were made, and if they were they won't get anywhere - there's too many editors on Wikinews who don't access IRC for anything discussed there to be binding.

I think the only place for site-wide discussions in the Water cooler. Dan100 (Talk) 13:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

. Though honestly I think it was either a vandal trying to DOS my page or some sort of logging error/data corruption. Maybe there's a link to it out there somewhere though. ----RossKoepkeTalk 20:54, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Dan. Never one myself to be the old dog that con't learn new tricks, I do have to resist confusion. Your effort using a 'template' for the Lead stories is understandable, at least to myself, and hopefully to other Wikinewsies as well, and greatly simplifies the task. A hell of an improvement, thx.

I believe the 'News brief' effort stuff was to force work towards supporting WNN reports. If that effort is a natural outgrowth of WN, then so be it. Personally I find it a major distraction to those editors that could otherwise be otherwise contributing more in writing. But what do I know, afterall, I am an old dog :) Maybe this broadcast, podcast, verbal stuff is a wave that will wash more contributors up on WN's shores. Hoping so -Edbrown05 15:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Dan100! I know, my reasons to want them to be deleted are hard to understand. It's just that I feel bad (really bad) to have uploaded them because they in my view come from Meta or Commons, and the content there is GFDL, unlike the content here. So I suggest to delete the templates. Hope you understand. Best Regards, Mg22 15:08, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

p.s:I would be happy about an answer. Mg22 18:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, we want to use them, so unless someone sues us, they're staying... Dan100 (Talk) 07:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I think, the problem is, that I would be respnsible if someone would like to sue someone. Best regards, Mg22 10:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I like the Latest news feed, but I don't like the fact that it shows a rather unsightly blogspot page and I have to click a link _before_ the page that I want to view comes up. Maybe the WLN feed and pages can be moved off Blogspot and the template changed to a PHP script that redirects to the appropriate page? --Spe88 17:41, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

A temporary solution _can_ be gained by simply moving the WLN blog to a PHP webhost, and adjusting the template accordingly to redirect to the WN page. --Spe88 11:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I took the initiative of writing an automatically generated RSS feed. The Wikinews article should load directly into your feed reader rather than just a link. Since it is automatic, the newest articles should always be syndicated. --Goober99 05:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Dan100, I'm here to ask you once again to stop personally attacking people. It does nothing to move us forward, and quite frankly is mean spirited and hurts feelings. Saying2 "who the f are you?", "you just don't get this, do you?", "I'm tired of arguing with teenagers who can't manage anything more than 'I'm right/you're wrong'", and "our editor base would be a lot larger if it wasn't for petty agenda-pushers who bring nothing useful to the site" is wrong and against the rules. I am asking you nicely and giving you a chance to change before I have to block you. Respect, NGerda 20:05, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Nick, it is not up to you to block other sysops, and certainly not in cases which concern you personally.--Eloquence 21:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

These cases concern other Wikinewsies as well, and who is to police the police then? -- NGerda 21:40, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Thing is Nick, I'm just stating how things are. This is a news service. If you're not here to write news, you should leave. Dan100 (Talk) 01:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Dan, I have written a lot of news, so have you, and I am also trying to work on an easier and more effecient newswriting enviornment for other people to write news. Many people also want a better writing enviornment. So I do not appeciate your comments that if I'm not here to write news I should leave. Regards, NGerda 02:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Nick and Dan, you've both been my friends since I got here and it's sad to see you fight or engage in time-consuming edit conflicts - you're both doing an awful lot for Wikinews and I know you've both got its best interests at heart. I've just written a suggestion on the watercooler which hopefully will take us forward on the portal debate. Both of you might find that waiting a little longer for consensus or advice from the rest of the community will take away the personal element, rather than going for each other on assorted talk pages. If you want me to be involved in any mediation, i'd be happy to be, otherwise I just hope you can keep talking :) ClareWhite 10:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

someone did something on the 12th (I think) that has led to the SpecialDevelop stories coming up in the main workspace, but they have gone from the Quaker page. I've had a fiddle but can't make it work. I saw something that I think might be linked when I was watching recent changes - I think that coincides because my developing Quaker stories are listed on the 12th when they were created much earlier - somebody put all non-published articles into develop, but I can't find where it was now. Any ideas? ClareWhite 11:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for being late getting onto this... I'll take a look! Dan100 (Talk) 14:47, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Had I? It's very confusing. What did you think of what i've put on the watercooler? Not that much, obviously :) I do think it looks neater all coming out of portal space, couldn't you come round to it if all the redirects are right? ClareWhite 15:29, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I am unable to understand the objection. is it really confusing? if it was "vandalwatcher" would that be a problem? isn't this all rather childish.. "would not a rose still be a rose?" should I do it because the group wants me to? would you change yours because the group wanted you to? I really,trully like it and was happy when i thought to use it.It's not like it was a casual thing;I thought about it a lot. It is also a problem for me that the first mention of it as a problem came after some edit arguments with the same admin. who insisted I change it when he had no right to do so. If the majority wants me to and anyone can explain to me in a rational fashion why its a problem, I will relunctantly oblige. NPOV 11:24, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the majority certainly want you to change it.

As for a reason - your current name suggests that you are associating yourself with the NPOV policy. Anyone reading the history of a page you edited would see this "NPOV" on it, and could assume that it has something to do with the NPOV. This is confusing. Dan100 (Talk) 11:57, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Ahem... i think the briefs are to do with WNN :) Any idea where I can get a pic of a violin? The feature template doesn't seem happy... ClareWhite 15:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Are they? I'm totally out touch these days... I know someone edited the developing template a while back asking for people to make them for no apparent purpose, and then people dutifully did, lol. Anyway, I'm sure there must be a pic of a violin on the commons, I'll have a look Dan100 (Talk) 15:08, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll know now not to bother searching for images on Wikinews... So, are you sold on portals yet, or not? :D ClareWhite 15:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

There's no reason why "non-time dependent" stories can't sit in developing stories along with everything else. I also can't understand the point of the "evergreen" thing - if such a story isn't "ready to be developed by the community", then what's it doing on the wiki? Dan100 (Talk) 17:17, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Yes there is - they will will be nominated for deletion and/or speedy deleted if they remain (abandoned) on the developing stories page. -- Davodd | Talk 21:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Dan and thanks for the welcome note. To be honest I'm unlikely to start an account here - I shouldn't really have been fiddling with stories at all, as I am an ex-Wikipedian doing cold turkey, and I really shouldn't get back into all this stuff, tempting though it is. But I just came to it as a news source, then one little click ... gah! I should probably go away now ... thanks and best wishes from a Grumpy Old Git. 138.37.199.199 07:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to include a link to the Stlye Guide in the first message they receive introducing them to the site. Theshibboleth 15:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Interesting idea. There used to be one, but I seem to remember taking it out because there's already a lot of links in it, and also you can generally grasp the style of the site just from reading existing articles. I think it's a bit much to ask new contributors to read such a long document - I know I've never read all of it... Dan100 (Talk) 17:03, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I used Feed Burner, because it is the easiest way I know to keep track of stats. If anyone knows of a package or script I could install on my own server that would keep track of the same (or most of) the stats that Feed Burner does, I wouldn't mind just using my server. Actually, if I could eventually just run it on my server that would be preferable. I'll give you fair warning, the URL above might change with future updates of the script. I'm thinking of eventually making the script generate a static XML file of the feed periodically--lighten the load on both my server and Wikinews'. If you use http://www.swingthesickle.com/wikinewsrss/feed, it will never change. Currently it redirects to feed burner, but if I eventually host the feed entirely myself, it will redirect to the feed on my server. --Goober99 18:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I just had a chance to take a cursory glance at the script after reading your comment about the "disappearing story." It seems that Wikinews is sending my script a cached page...but just some of the time. I'm sure there are still a lot of kinks that need to be worked out of the script. I will try to work out kinks as they present themselves within the next few days. As to your other questions, I'll prepare a detailed description of how the Wiki News Syndicator works and post it as soon as possible. Until then, you can always take a peek at the source code yourself. --Goober99 18:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Hehe, I did have a look earlier but couldn't quite figure it out :-) Dan100 (Talk) 18:41, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Here is a detailed description of how Wiki News Syndicator works. It should answer most of your questions. For instance, since the RSS feed is created on-the-fly each time, articles that have been deleted from Wikinews will not be included the next time the RSS feed is requested. Now if your feed reader happened to request the feed before that article was deleted, it may keep a link to that article.

I changed the URL I was using to include &action=purge, and I'm still getting sent cached pages by Wikinews. I'm not sure if it is something I'm doing wrong or not. I'll keep fiddling with it, and I'm sure I'll find a work around. -- Goober99 22:00, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed the URL back to a vanilla link (sans purge parameter) to the Digests. I'm now mirroring the Digest page on my server and parsing my mirror. It seems to solve my cache problem. There should be no more "disapperaring articles." If you see any, please let me know. -- Goober99 01:06, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. I deleted the extra comments. Classes start tomorrow, but if I'm not too swamped, I'll try to take a look at the caching problem. I have a script on my server that does retrieve the Wikinews page every hour, but Wikinews keeps sending it a cached page. It is problem some sort of mechanism to keep it from getting swamped by bots. Right now I'm periodically copying the newest page over to my server manually, but I still let the script parse it for links. I'm sure it probably has something to do with HTTP Headers. If I can figure out the header that will tell Wikinews to give me a new page instead of a cached page, it should work smoothly. -- Goober99 23:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

We basically try to hide our category lists on Wikinews as they're useless - news does not list itself A-Z! So instead we use our topic/region pages, which use m:DynamicPageLists to list articles by time. Dan100 (Talk) 09:49, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. I agree the news articles do not list A-Z. This does not apply for subcategories, but I presume that of not important. Personally I am intererested in categories and linking these to other projects (interwiki links or sisterproject). I will try and explore other ways. HenkvD 09:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Just remember - this is a news service, not an encyclopedia :-). We do many things differently to Wikipedia here. Dan100 (Talk) 09:59, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

I fully agree, but that does not mean the sisterprojects could not complement each other. HenkvD 10:04, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, but something that work on WP don't work here. This is one. Dan100 (Talk) 10:19, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Dan, what are you up to now? Are you creating an alernative to portals? ClareWhite 10:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I tried very hard to solve this myself, but I failed. We should have a category like 'Local only' which makes more sense than Neighborhood (and doesn't grate on our English sensibilities) but when I try and put the bit in to knock it out of developing stories it all goes blank. Why? I'm only copying the other notcategory bits and putting in another sensible sounding category. It's not bloody fair, Dan. And as for your sneaky portal-avoidance strategy, well it seems to be working doesn't it? Sleeping dogs indeed. Pff. ClareWhite 16:11, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I think a local only category is a great idea. It blanks the developing stories list beacuse we are at the limit of notcategorys. To use it all stories taged with Neighborhood would need to be replaced with the new category. Also sorry about misspelling Neighbourhood :). If I had noticed sooner I would have fixed it before I used it. It is fine by me if you would like to make it be spelled with the u it needs. :)--Cspurrier 03:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Morning! I've managed to do it now thanks to Cspurrier and we can now use Local only instead of neighborhood. Huzah! ClareWhite 09:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

What's up? Anything new going on the the good 'ol United Kingdom? Listening to some cool music? Buena Vista Social Club is pretty cool. That's what I'm listening to. ;-) So, I'm here to have a chill conversation with you, the cool British masta' of the Wikinews domain, about this chill Portal namespace. As it turns out, Ilya Haykinson decided to support the Portal namespace. So, I come to you as a fellow hardcore Wikinewsie, and ask politely for your approval or neutrality on this issue. If you agree to not revert, I plan on implementing the changes as soon as you say it's ok. We've been fighting over this for too long, and I'd really like to be buds with you, ya' know? :) Great! So, I'll see you around!

No. There is still simply no good reason for doing it, and plenty of reasons not to. For example: any newly-created "portals" won't be searched when a user enters a place name in the search box and hits enter. Dan100 (Talk) 17:30, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

The search capabilities can easily be changed to include the portal namespace. Please consider this. :) -- NGerda 17:34, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Then get them changed before you try to move namespaces, and break this! You've probably noticed my test pages go through, which prove my point Dan100 (Talk) 17:39, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

There won't be anything to search until we move the pages over. -- NGerda 17:45, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I have added the portal namespace to the list of default search namespaces. However, this will only affect "Search", and not "Go". "Go" does an exact title match, so if you want that to work, you have to create redirects. There are very good reasons to have these kinds of portals in a namespace of their own, which I have enumerated repeatedly. The most important is that we can create custom portals for many, many different regions and topics without cluttering up the article namespace.--Eloquence 17:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Define "cluttering". As you know, I'm very pragmatic. I tend to see things only in black and white, and only do stuff for good reasons. "Cluttering"... fails that standard. The "excluding from DPLs etc" argument was solved by category:portal.

And as you say, "Go" - which is what happens when you hit enter, as most people do - will not find these pages. That's not good. Dan100 (Talk) 18:10, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

The article count works by namespace and doesn't count redirects. If we create hundreds or even thousands of these portals (e.g. one for every city above a certain population threshold), it becomes pretty useless without additional calculation. Special:Newpages, our real-time RSS feed, lists articles from the main namespace. Special:Allpages, Special:Recentchanges, Special:Contributions also all allow filtering by namespace, and more namespace functionality is on the way.

Articles and portals are fundamentally different type of page -- that's exactly what namespaces are for. As for "Go", I'm not convinced this is really something many people do, but we can create redirects for many or all portals.--Eloquence 18:36, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

How has the number of articles even been a measure of how good a news service is? It's simply not a useful statistic. Plus the there's the fact that, out of our thousands of pagse, only a handful actually are "portals".

Regards the Special pages filtering - how is that useful? How does that justify all the downsides?

And are you honestly saying people never type, for example, Africa in the search box to quickly get to pages? Or to search for places they're interested in? And how are people supposed to know to create redirects to overcome this when people they make new region or topic pages (which they do)? Why make things harder?Dan100 (Talk) 18:46, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I am unable to understand the objection. is it really confusing? if it was "vandalwatcher" would that be a problem? isn't this all rather childish.. "would not a rose still be a rose?" should I do it because the group wants me to? would you change yours because the group wanted you to? I really,trully like it and was happy when i thought to use it.It's not like it was a casual thing;I thought about it a lot. It is also a problem for me that the first mention of it as a problem came after some edit arguments with the same admin. who insisted I change it when he had no right to do so. If the majority wants me to and anyone can explain to me in a rational fashion why its a problem, I will relunctantly oblige. NPOV 11:24, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the majority certainly want you to change it.

As for a reason - your current name suggests that you are associating yourself with the NPOV policy. Anyone reading the history of a page you edited would see this "NPOV" on it, and could assume that it has something to do with the NPOV. This is confusing. Dan100 (Talk) 11:57, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Ahem... i think the briefs are to do with WNN :) Any idea where I can get a pic of a violin? The feature template doesn't seem happy... ClareWhite 15:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Are they? I'm totally out touch these days... I know someone edited the developing template a while back asking for people to make them for no apparent purpose, and then people dutifully did, lol. Anyway, I'm sure there must be a pic of a violin on the commons, I'll have a look Dan100 (Talk) 15:08, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll know now not to bother searching for images on Wikinews... So, are you sold on portals yet, or not? :D ClareWhite 15:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

There's no reason why "non-time dependent" stories can't sit in developing stories along with everything else. I also can't understand the point of the "evergreen" thing - if such a story isn't "ready to be developed by the community", then what's it doing on the wiki? Dan100 (Talk) 17:17, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Yes there is - they will will be nominated for deletion and/or speedy deleted if they remain (abandoned) on the developing stories page. -- Davodd | Talk 21:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Dan and thanks for the welcome note. To be honest I'm unlikely to start an account here - I shouldn't really have been fiddling with stories at all, as I am an ex-Wikipedian doing cold turkey, and I really shouldn't get back into all this stuff, tempting though it is. But I just came to it as a news source, then one little click ... gah! I should probably go away now ... thanks and best wishes from a Grumpy Old Git. 138.37.199.199 07:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

...yep. Thanks for the quick intro. I have yet to get one on WP after a few weeks, and it took you less than a day -- I'm impressed. I appreciate someone staying on top of things like that to keep Wiki projects rolling. Deadsalmon 01:31, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to include a link to the Stlye Guide in the first message they receive introducing them to the site. Theshibboleth 15:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Interesting idea. There used to be one, but I seem to remember taking it out because there's already a lot of links in it, and also you can generally grasp the style of the site just from reading existing articles. I think it's a bit much to ask new contributors to read such a long document - I know I've never read all of it... Dan100 (Talk) 17:03, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I used Feed Burner, because it is the easiest way I know to keep track of stats. If anyone knows of a package or script I could install on my own server that would keep track of the same (or most of) the stats that Feed Burner does, I wouldn't mind just using my server. Actually, if I could eventually just run it on my server that would be preferable. I'll give you fair warning, the URL above might change with future updates of the script. I'm thinking of eventually making the script generate a static XML file of the feed periodically--lighten the load on both my server and Wikinews'. If you use http://www.swingthesickle.com/wikinewsrss/feed, it will never change. Currently it redirects to feed burner, but if I eventually host the feed entirely myself, it will redirect to the feed on my server. --Goober99 18:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I just had a chance to take a cursory glance at the script after reading your comment about the "disappearing story." It seems that Wikinews is sending my script a cached page...but just some of the time. I'm sure there are still a lot of kinks that need to be worked out of the script. I will try to work out kinks as they present themselves within the next few days. As to your other questions, I'll prepare a detailed description of how the Wiki News Syndicator works and post it as soon as possible. Until then, you can always take a peek at the source code yourself. --Goober99 18:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Hehe, I did have a look earlier but couldn't quite figure it out :-) Dan100 (Talk) 18:41, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Here is a detailed description of how Wiki News Syndicator works. It should answer most of your questions. For instance, since the RSS feed is created on-the-fly each time, articles that have been deleted from Wikinews will not be included the next time the RSS feed is requested. Now if your feed reader happened to request the feed before that article was deleted, it may keep a link to that article.

I changed the URL I was using to include &action=purge, and I'm still getting sent cached pages by Wikinews. I'm not sure if it is something I'm doing wrong or not. I'll keep fiddling with it, and I'm sure I'll find a work around. -- Goober99 22:00, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I changed the URL back to a vanilla link (sans purge parameter) to the Digests. I'm now mirroring the Digest page on my server and parsing my mirror. It seems to solve my cache problem. There should be no more "disapperaring articles." If you see any, please let me know. -- Goober99 01:06, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. I deleted the extra comments. Classes start tomorrow, but if I'm not too swamped, I'll try to take a look at the caching problem. I have a script on my server that does retrieve the Wikinews page every hour, but Wikinews keeps sending it a cached page. It is problem some sort of mechanism to keep it from getting swamped by bots. Right now I'm periodically copying the newest page over to my server manually, but I still let the script parse it for links. I'm sure it probably has something to do with HTTP Headers. If I can figure out the header that will tell Wikinews to give me a new page instead of a cached page, it should work smoothly. -- Goober99 23:30, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

We basically try to hide our category lists on Wikinews as they're useless - news does not list itself A-Z! So instead we use our topic/region pages, which use m:DynamicPageLists to list articles by time. Dan100 (Talk) 09:49, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. I agree the news articles do not list A-Z. This does not apply for subcategories, but I presume that of not important. Personally I am intererested in categories and linking these to other projects (interwiki links or sisterproject). I will try and explore other ways. HenkvD 09:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Just remember - this is a news service, not an encyclopedia :-). We do many things differently to Wikipedia here. Dan100 (Talk) 09:59, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

I fully agree, but that does not mean the sisterprojects could not complement each other. HenkvD 10:04, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, but something that work on WP don't work here. This is one. Dan100 (Talk) 10:19, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Dan, what are you up to now? Are you creating an alernative to portals? ClareWhite 10:18, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I tried very hard to solve this myself, but I failed. We should have a category like 'Local only' which makes more sense than Neighborhood (and doesn't grate on our English sensibilities) but when I try and put the bit in to knock it out of developing stories it all goes blank. Why? I'm only copying the other notcategory bits and putting in another sensible sounding category. It's not bloody fair, Dan. And as for your sneaky portal-avoidance strategy, well it seems to be working doesn't it? Sleeping dogs indeed. Pff. ClareWhite 16:11, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I think a local only category is a great idea. It blanks the developing stories list beacuse we are at the limit of notcategorys. To use it all stories taged with Neighborhood would need to be replaced with the new category. Also sorry about misspelling Neighbourhood :). If I had noticed sooner I would have fixed it before I used it. It is fine by me if you would like to make it be spelled with the u it needs. :)--Cspurrier 03:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Morning! I've managed to do it now thanks to Cspurrier and we can now use Local only instead of neighborhood. Huzah! ClareWhite 09:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

What's up? Anything new going on the the good 'ol United Kingdom? Listening to some cool music? Buena Vista Social Club is pretty cool. That's what I'm listening to. ;-) So, I'm here to have a chill conversation with you, the cool British masta' of the Wikinews domain, about this chill Portal namespace. As it turns out, Ilya Haykinson decided to support the Portal namespace. So, I come to you as a fellow hardcore Wikinewsie, and ask politely for your approval or neutrality on this issue. If you agree to not revert, I plan on implementing the changes as soon as you say it's ok. We've been fighting over this for too long, and I'd really like to be buds with you, ya' know? :) Great! So, I'll see you around!

No. There is still simply no good reason for doing it, and plenty of reasons not to. For example: any newly-created "portals" won't be searched when a user enters a place name in the search box and hits enter. Dan100 (Talk) 17:30, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

The search capabilities can easily be changed to include the portal namespace. Please consider this. :) -- NGerda 17:34, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Then get them changed before you try to move namespaces, and break this! You've probably noticed my test pages go through, which prove my point Dan100 (Talk) 17:39, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

There won't be anything to search until we move the pages over. -- NGerda 17:45, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I have added the portal namespace to the list of default search namespaces. However, this will only affect "Search", and not "Go". "Go" does an exact title match, so if you want that to work, you have to create redirects. There are very good reasons to have these kinds of portals in a namespace of their own, which I have enumerated repeatedly. The most important is that we can create custom portals for many, many different regions and topics without cluttering up the article namespace.--Eloquence 17:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Define "cluttering". As you know, I'm very pragmatic. I tend to see things only in black and white, and only do stuff for good reasons. "Cluttering"... fails that standard. The "excluding from DPLs etc" argument was solved by category:portal.

And as you say, "Go" - which is what happens when you hit enter, as most people do - will not find these pages. That's not good. Dan100 (Talk) 18:10, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

The article count works by namespace and doesn't count redirects. If we create hundreds or even thousands of these portals (e.g. one for every city above a certain population threshold), it becomes pretty useless without additional calculation. Special:Newpages, our real-time RSS feed, lists articles from the main namespace. Special:Allpages, Special:Recentchanges, Special:Contributions also all allow filtering by namespace, and more namespace functionality is on the way.

Articles and portals are fundamentally different type of page -- that's exactly what namespaces are for. As for "Go", I'm not convinced this is really something many people do, but we can create redirects for many or all portals.--Eloquence 18:36, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

How has the number of articles even been a measure of how good a news service is? It's simply not a useful statistic. Plus the there's the fact that, out of our thousands of pagse, only a handful actually are "portals".

Regards the Special pages filtering - how is that useful? How does that justify all the downsides?

And are you honestly saying people never type, for example, Africa in the search box to quickly get to pages? Or to search for places they're interested in? And how are people supposed to know to create redirects to overcome this when people they make new region or topic pages (which they do)? Why make things harder?Dan100 (Talk) 18:46, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

The number of articles is the most frequently cited number for any Wikimedia project. It's used in press releases, interproject comparisons, interlanguage comparisons, time comparisons, and so on. It is used to calculate and predict growth rates and can be related to other metrics such as the number of active or registered users, of pageviews, and so on. As such, it is a number of high importance with many dependencies. Yes, there are currently not enough portals to make a substantial difference in terms of the overall article count, but the whole idea is to create these portals.

As for your argument about the "Go" button: If the "Go" button fails to match a title, then it will conduct a full-text search (when that search is enabled). This will show a title match for the portals, which are now added to the list of default namespaces, as well as a list of all articles which contain the word, which is probably more likely to be what the user wants (users treat search boxes like search boxes, not like command-line navigation utilities).

Is special page filtering useful? I would certainly say so. It is very desirable to just be able to see recent changes to articles in particular, especially if these portals will be actively edited by people who choose to look after them, filling up Special:Recentchanges with design changes and the like. In the midst of a major event, being able to focus just on the news by filtering out everything else is desirable. Looking at a user's contributions and being able to say, and count, how much work they have done on articles is also useful.

How namespaces are displayed is already customizable to some extent using CSS, and will be more customizable in the future. There's no particular reason a portal needs to look "strange", and it is in fact the very namespace distinction that makes it possible for us to systematically alter the appearance of pages based on their classification. Categories are not useful for this purpose because a page can be in multiple categories, but only ever in a single namespace.--Eloquence 19:43, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm an import from Wikipedia... and I've had some experience with Wikisource, so Wikinews is quite a surprise. I noticed a lot of different modifications to the software to aid newswriting. I checked Help and I couldn't find anything, so I was wondering: what exactly feature-wise is different about Wikinews (the timeline feature looks pretty cool...) Ambush Commander 03:22, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Reverting images - I saw directions but was not able to follow them[edit]

Re: space-shuttle replaced by a picture of "hitler". I did get to some sort of 'history of the image' page, where I saw that the image had been reverted and then re-vandalised. I couldnt figure out how to re-revert, so I just made the note. (newbie) Got in chat. A nice person said I needed to be logged in to Commons to revert. I created a Commons login, and that was correct. I updated the instructions on reverting images in Commons to note that requirement.

I'm requesting that this or something like it becomes a standard Wiki header template. It warns the reader that they may not understand what they are about to read, and thus gives them the option not to waste their time reading it. It serves the same purpose as the header on the "Science News" or "Cooking" pages do in big newspapers. Some people don't want to read science, and some don't want to read cooking. It is worded in that vanilla way to avoid giving offense. Perhaps you can suggest a better wording.

This came about because an IP# editor wrote "confusing text" on the earlier article that others completely understood. I looked over the article carefully, and concluded that it was the scientific matter that was confusing, not the text. If it is labeled "science" most people will understand that it is intended to be heavy reading.

As for why write it as science news, it was clear to me that the central issues in the L'Équipe doping claim were likely to be sports nationalism masquerading as science. The success of such a masquerade depends on the fog of non-scientific reporting, of which there is more than enough already.

Have you ever seen a mainstream news article have such a disclaimer? We're supposed to be better than them. Please, I know it can be quite difficult and time consuming, but try and write articles so that anyone can understand them as easily as possible, and that such disclaimers are unnecessary. Wikinews aims to be inclusionary, not exclusionary. Dan100 (Talk) 14:55, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

It's also rather patronising, to be honest! Dan100 (Talk) 14:57, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your time in considering the idea.Milomedes 15:49, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Andrewbot only runs when I ask it to, not continuously. I set it to fix double redirects at a rate of one per 15 seconds. At that rate, it usually takes a few hours to finish. I run it when a lot of double redirects start to build up. Andrew pmk 04:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Hello! You've been quiet recently, sucked into Wikimedia politics by the looks of the list (and I thought WN was time consuming!). Anyway, if you get the chance i'd be very pleased if you'd pitch into my developing skills portfolio project, see if you think it's useful, what could be changed n all that before I try unleashing it on the watercooler. It's still a bit rough, not much editing time, but the bones of it are thereClareWhite 16:19, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I feel like a prick right now. I deleted the feed from my home page. Next time you make a community contribution, make sure the community can contribute to it. -68.232.153.54 02:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Many thanks for your email response to my Wikinews questionnaire (and the post on my blog) - great to get your views on how and where Wikinews is going.

I must admit I'm a little surprised at how strongly you've positioned yourself against the idea of discussion and debate of the news. This seems to be what helps other news sites build a strong sense of community, so are you sure that by discouraging discussion you're not pushing away potential participants ? (Even mainstream news media sites like BBC News Online are now experimenting with some limited user commentary functions, after all.)

There also seems to be a real sense of competition with the Wikipedia. Are there any plans to turn this into a more cooperative approach, in one way or another - such as featuring Wikinews headlines on the Wikipedia front page, or having brief news snippets in Wikinews which highlight relevant Wikipedia material ?

(I've also posted this as a comment on my blog and sent it via email, so if you want to respond please do so wherever you feel it is most appropriate.)

Hi Dan100! I just noticed you have deleted the Babel templates I uploaded. Now, I want to say a few words about it. I know, my reasons to want them be deleted were incomprehensible, but you fulfilled my request anyway. So: Thank you!

Regards, Mg22 17:35, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

p.s: Please pardon my late reply, but I haven't paid attention on that subject a few days.

Good day Dan100! You deleted the Babel templates I uploaded forgetting one- Template:User en- (I think it's my fault because I didn't request speedy deletion for this template) I know this is the most used one, but could you be so kind and delete it, too? If you want me to, I can request speedy deletion for it.

Hello. You can vote for or against Amgine becoming an administrator of Wiktionary here:[2]. See ya', 66.139.76.153 17:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You may want to know that, as your vote was not forthcoming on en.wiktionary, Neutralizer has added your vote for you there. Just thought you might want to be aware. - Amgine | talken.WN 06:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Dan,fyi, the vote edit Amgine refers to above was clearly made by someone named Gyre. Neutralizer 20:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm unsure as to whom it does actually belong to, however I can vouch for Neutralizer's claims that Gyre has forged votes on a consensus poll before (against Amgine on this site). Does seem very likely that it may be a repeat attack. --MrMiscellanious – Happy Hanukkah – 01:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

No, Mrsmisc, I have erred (heavily) but I have never forged someone's vote. So, your voucher is worthless. As to the purpose of my visit here, in my aforementioned edit, Dan100, I saw the vote, & in the "no-admin" vote space; I did number it, but I noted, distinctly, (was the first to do so!) that the signature was suspect: "added # for counting of "Dan", but don't know, his signature is poor...". & for the record, I'm wrong for even adding the "#". I understand. I'm sorry. Grye 07:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

You forged Cartman02au's vote. That is undisputable at this point. Your username here will be blocked, as you are bypassing the block that has previously been put on you. Cartman02au never voted for the support of that de-admin, nor did he ever make those statements. We do not tolerate forging votes or comments here. --MrMiscellanious – Happy Hanukkah – 17:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks to me like Neutralizer was quoting me in his "oppose" vote, but formatted it badly. Grye then, probably innocently, added a # in front of it thinking it was a vote, but was missing a standard bit of vote formatting. So I don't think there was much/any "foul play" intended here. User:Dan100 (Talk) 09:53, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

A spill-over from wikton..(lift it)..narily just when I thought Dan100 was dead, wiped out by definitions. Ah, all is right. -Edbrown05 10:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I shall absoluement try my best to produce a NewsBrief every other day, since it might be quite important. As long as I can mention that I'm reading the news; of course, I'm a believer of attribution and you can see why.

Hope there are podcast listeners subscribed to us soon! Phil-hong 05:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I just recently read the discussion page on Audio Wikinews. Yikes. There was a complaint about the "annoying voice" and bad quality recordings that have been posted onto Audio Wikinews: News Briefs.

Which brings me to this question: Is my voice okay? I want to give an effort to revive the News Briefs as a voice that's likable so I'm not wasting anyone's or my time. Phil-hong 07:43, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I will produce at least three newsbriefs on the weekdays and four newsbriefs on the weekends, two on Saturday and two on Sunday. Once again, thank you! Phil-hong 00:52, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

The News Briefs circulation, is as of today, is 56. In the past, we've had as many as 87, and as low as 1. I believe we could greatly increase this as we have a more stable release pattern (as we seem to be getting now, thanks to Phil-hong). I'm still looking for a way that we could use MP3, as that would dramatically increase our circulation. --MrMiscellanious (talk) – 18:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking for someone to take a look at this discussion on my talk page, and comment on whether or not I'm getting my point across. It is heading towards a dispute, and I am sure you have seen the other actions of this user elsewhere on the wiki that have - in the past - been characterised as a "pattern of disruption". You will note in the above-linked discussion he's challenged me to get someone else to review it. Since the circumstances were provoked by an interpretation of the Anglo-centric section in WN:NPOV that you'd contributed to, would you care to do so? --Brian McNeil / talk 22:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)