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Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza (Read 517318 times)

the dough softened up after the 24 hours with 3 hours on the counter prior to baking. The dough was actually ok tasting, crisp and thin bottom. However, the crust was hard and didn't have any of the nice air pockets as noted in your pictures. the crust was dense and crisp. I will try the other recipe and also increase the volume. I will also try using a scale to measure as well.

Made my first attempt at a Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza tonight. I went with the recipe on post 31. Last night I mixed the dough (volume measured) and was surprised how hard the dough was. Not expecting much, I let it sit overnight and was quite surprised to see it had softened up and was very easy to work with. I spread it out on 14 inch perforated pan (the pan had a lip about a quarter inch high). Put on the toppings and it was ready for the oven.

I had the oven at 500 for about a half hour. I then baked the pizza for 7 minutes in the pan, on top of a pizza stone. It came out looking pretty good. Sliced it up and noticed it didn't look quite right. On taste I could tell it was a little doughy and the crust didn't have the quality air pockets I see on a lot of pizza's posted here.

I am guessing that the dough just didn't get baked enough? Any recommendations would be great. My plans for the next bake will be to measure by weight, and bake the pie directly on top of the stone. I will just use the pan to stretch it out.

Either way, I really enjoyed the process. This site has been great, and I am glad I came across it.

As I see it, there were perhaps a couple of things that led to the results you achieved. First, is the use of volume measurements. The above post was written almost nine years ago, at a time where I did not fully appreciate how volume measurements could produce widely varying results depending on how people measured out the flour volumetrically. So, you will be wise to use the weight measurements next time for the flour and water.

Second, it is usually not a good idea to try to bake a NY style pizza in a pan. The classic NY style is baked in a deck oven on a stone. I have tried baking the NY style pizza in a cutter pan and also on a dark anodized perforated disk but was unable to get results that were good enough for me to continue my experiments with those carriers. I think a good part of the problem with using carriers like pans and disks is that the carriers have to get up to the right temperature before the pizzas can start to bake. As a result, you get sub-par oven spring and a fairly flat and dense rim without an airy character. You might also end up with some undercooked dough. So, using a preheated pizza stone is the right way to go. You didn't indicate what brand or type of flour you used but a hydration value of 62% should work well with most bread flours and high-gluten flours. If you are using all-purpose flour, then you might lower the hydration value to 60%. Most professional pizza operators who specialize in the NY style tend to use high-gluten flours but arguably a better choice is a flour with a protein content of around 13%. If you can't find such a flour, the King Arthur bread flour is a decent choice.

In your case, once you have gained experience with your dough making, you might then consider lowering the thickness factor. If you get to that point and need help, let me know and I will show you how to make the adjustment.

Thanks for the reply. Like you said, my next one will be right on top of the pizza stone and I will be measuring by weight. As for the flour I used, it was Hodgson Mill high protein - high gluten. To be honest, when you start getting into hydration rate and all that, I tend to get a little lost. Any links that break down the math on that?

Again, thanks for the advice. I am hoping to have a re-do early this week.

Once you understand the rudiments of baker's percents, then you will be equipped to use the dough calculating tools on the forum. There are several, as you will note at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html, but the one that I use most of the time is the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The value of these tools is that they allow you to change recipes at will (of course, they have to be workable changes) and not have to do all of the calculations of ingredients made necessary by the changes. You can also use the tools to accommodate large numbers of dough balls, and their dough weights, for any size pizza. If you'd like, I can show you a typical use of the tools based on the size of pizza you want to make (which can't be larger than your stone), whether you prefer a thin or thicker crust, etc.

For background purposes, you might also read the thread starting at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. Although that post and succeeding ones are in the context of a stand mixer rather than a food processor, you should still be able to get a pretty good feel for how a basic NY style pizza can be made in a home setting using a pizza stone.

Thanks Peter, I will look through that today, since Congress let me have a few days off. :-)

Second run went a little over cooked, getting closer. Need to get a quality peel, tried using a cookie sheet and the dough stuck to the pan and wouldn't come off. Had to cook on the pan for about 4 minutes until I could get it to slide off. Still tasted good.

Third try worked out better. Great taste and, to me, looked the part. Not at all that knowledgeable of NY style pizza. I folded a slice to eat and the crust was a little hard on the outside. Not really sure if that would be accurate for the style. It was crisp on the outside, but a little chewy on the inside. Thoughts?

Either way, my daughter (9 year old), loved it and that is no small feat.

Second attempt, with 6 pizzas this time. Same dough (but I didn't cover them well enough and had bits of dried "skin" I had to work through).

Watched a few videoes on how to shape dough and managed to get rounder pizzas this time around. I am not doing the—in my opinion—wildly exaggerated crust ends of a NY pizza, but do separate out the rim while shaping it. The pizzas came out with a thinner overall crust than last time; eminently foldable little things.

While visiting friends recently in Massachusetts, I offered to make a couple of NY style pizzas. Since the Tom L. recipe for NY style dough has become etched in my brain and is now firmly a part of my DNA, I decided to use that recipe. Along with the memorized recipe, I had brought my 16-inch pizza screen (in order to be able to make 16-inch pizzas), and my calculator. My friends have a Braun variable speed food processor, a peel, and a pizza stone, but not much more. Since I had brought no flours with me, and since my friends had neither high-gluten flour or bread flour, I decided to experiment with vital wheat gluten (VWG). I was fortunate enough to find both King Arthur bread flour and the Arrowhead brand of VWG in a local Wild Oats market. Doing a little bit of math, I was able to determine how much VWG to add to the KA bread flour to equal the protein content of the KA Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour (more on this below). With a little bit of luck, the dough and the pizzas turned out fine, and before I could take photos, the pizzas were history. I thought enough of the results, however, to repeat the experiment when I returned home to Texas--and, this time, to take a few photos. I think the value of the experiment is to demonstrate that a good NY style pizza based on Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe can be made when a high-gluten flour is not available. If either bread flour or all-purpose flour is available, along with VWG, the protein content of the basic flour used can be increased using the VWG.

For the most recent experiment, I decided on a 16-inch, thin pizza, using a hydration level of 63% and 0.25% IDY for the dough (and a thickness factor of 0.10). Using the basic formula (stated elsewhere in this thread) to calculate the needed dough ball weight, I calculated that I would need a dough ball weight of around 20 ounces. Using the baker's percents for Tom L.'s recipe, I calculated that the amount of KA bread flour I would need would be 12.10 ounces (the remaining ingredients and quantities are listed below).

To increase the protein content of the KA bread flour to approximate the protein level of the KA Sir Lancelot flour, I undertook the following steps. First, I determined the difference in protein content between the KA Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour and the KA bread flour. KA says that the protein content of its KASL flour is 14.2%, and 12.7% for its bread flour. This gives us a difference of 1.5%, which has to be made up by the use of VWG. Tom L. and others tell us that for each 1% of VWG (by weight of flour) that is added to another flour, the protein content of that other flour will be increased by 0.6%. So, for a differential of 1.5% in our specific case, this means that the amount of VWG to add to the KA bread flour (by weight of flour) should be 2.5% (1.5/0.6 = 2.5). Taking 2.5% of 12.10 ounces of KA bread flour gives us about 0.30 ounces of VWG to add. Arrowhead says that 1 T. of its VWG weighs 9 grams. Doing some simple gram-to-ounces conversions tells us that 0.30 ounces of VWG (about 8.5 grams) comes to about 1 T. We're almost home, but not quite yet. Because the addition of the VWG increases the weight of the flour to which it is added, Tom L. tells us that we should increase the amount of water called for in the recipe by an amount equal to 1 1/2 times the VWG. In this case, that added water came to 0.45 oz., or about 1 T. To avoid pilling/lumping, the VWG is added directly to the flour and stirred into it.

To make the dough, I used my basic Cuisinart food processor with the plastic blade attached. The water temperature was adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. For this experiment, this meant a water temperature (calculated) of 42 degrees F. The processing of the dough was as previously described in this thread for a food processor, so I will not describe it here in detail. The finished dough temperature was 83 degrees F and the dough ball weight was 20.55 ounces. As will be noted, the added VWG and water increased the dough ball weight by a fraction of an ounce. As an alternative approach, I could have reduced the amount of KA bread flour by an amount equal to the VWG added (their weights are about equal), and dispensed with the added tablespoon of water, and this would have produced a dough ball slightly closer to the calculated weight. This is an approach that has been advocated by Giotto elsewhere at this site. However, I chose instead to follow the recommendations of Tom. L. with respect to VWG for his recipe.

The finished dough was refrigerated for about 24 hours, and brought out to room temperature for about 1/2 hour before shaping. The dough was an extremely good dough--easy to toss, stretch and form. It had good extensibility, elasticity and smoothness. After the dough was shaped, it was dressed in a simple pepperoni style and baked for about 7 minutes on the 16-inch pizza screen at a temperature of around 475 degrees F and finished for a final 2 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at 475 degrees F. The finished pizza had the typical characteristics of a NY style pizza. However, I can't say that it was identical to one made using the KASL high-gluten flour. As between the two, I prefer a pizza dough made using the KASL flour. This is not to diminish the pizza made with the KA bread flour supplemented by the VWG. The dough was exceptional--one of the best I have made--and it produced a good pizza. And, since high-gluten flour is virtually unavailable at the retail level, one can still make a decent pizza if bread flour (or even all-purpose flour) and VWG are available. (VWG is available in most large supermarkets and specialty food stores; the Arrowhead brand typically sells for about $3 for a 10 ounce package and is often sold in the bulk bins at places like Whole Foods and Wild Oats).

A photo of the finished pizza is shown below. Note the presence of the bubbling. I had intentionally shaped the dough earlier than usual to see if I would experience that effect. I happen to like bubbles, but for those who don't I recommend that the dough be allowed to sit at room temperature for 1-2 hours before shaping. A slice photo follows this posting.

Peter

Hi,

I'd like to make a dough based on this process, but, as is the case with many non-commercial process, I need to adjust it based on what I have available.

I have Hodgson Mill VWG, which, based on their nutrition facts, has a slightly higher amount of protein/gram than the Arrowhead used here, though I know that companies frequently tend to round their nutrition facts. So it may be the same protein content. I think it is best to start out using the same measurements, and adjust based on the results. Is this a good approach here? (BTW, I do not have a scale).

Also, I have a standard KitchenAid Mixer. Pete used a water temp of 42F when using a food processor. Do I need to go up or down on the water temp to get the 80-85F dough ball temp?

Finally - is a food processor or a mixer better for making the dough? Could somone explain to me the pros/cons of each?

I have Hodgson Mill VWG, which, based on their nutrition facts, has a slightly higher amount of protein/gram than the Arrowhead used here, though I know that companies frequently tend to round their nutrition facts. So it may be the same protein content. I think it is best to start out using the same measurements, and adjust based on the results. Is this a good approach here? (BTW, I do not have a scale).

Also, I have a standard KitchenAid Mixer. Pete used a water temp of 42F when using a food processor. Do I need to go up or down on the water temp to get the 80-85F dough ball temp?

Finally - is a food processor or a mixer better for making the dough? Could someone explain to me the pros/cons of each?

WarEagle09,

The best way to determine how much vital wheat gluten (VWG) to use, whatever the brand, is to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. For example, if you have KABF and the Hodgson Mill VWG and you would like to raise the protein content of the KABF from 12.7% to 14.2%, and the amount of the KABF you have is 12.04 ounces (about 2 3/4 cups), the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator says that you should use 0.3351 ounces of the Hodgson Mill VWG. Since you don't have a scale, you would have to use the conversion factor for converting a weight of the Hodgson Mill VWG to a volume measurement. In this case, the conversion factor is 0.1058201. This yields 0.3351/0.1058201 = 3.17 teaspoons of the Hodgson Mill VWG, or about 3 1/8 teaspoons. Before adding this amount of VWG to the flour, you should first remove 3 1/8 teaspoons of the KABF. That way, the weight of the KABF and VWG combined will remain about the same as the original flour weight (12.04 ounces in our example).

If you do not have a food processor, and plan to use your stand mixer, you will want to increase the water temperature. That is because the heat from friction is considerably higher with the food processor than the stand mixer because of the food processor's higher speed. The water temperature in your case will be a function of the friction factor for your stand mixer, the room temperature and the flour temperature, and the type of dough and the dough batch size. There are ways of calculating the water temperature that will yield a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, but it is usually easier to just experiment with water temperatures to find what temperature works best in your case. For example, in the summer, you might use around 65 degrees F and increase it in the winter to something closer to 90 degrees F. Each case and each environment is different so some experimentation is required. And you don't have to be precise. Being off a few degrees on one side or the other of the desired finished dough temperature will not be the end of the world. For an interesting take on this subject, you might read the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg143632.html#msg143632.

I've tried some different pizza dough formulations and baking techniques, though very few compared to many posters here. For something I know works right for me every time, which may be helpful to newbies, here is my basic Lehmann recipe for 2 pizzas of approximately 13" diameter. I don't have a mixer. I have a pizza stone, a wooden peel and a pizza screen (the screen is helpful, but not required). Oh, and perhaps the most useful gadget of all: a food scale.

Cold "yeast" pizza dough fermentations strike me as essentially the same thing as "no knead" bread, with which I've had great success, though I use a sourdough starter for that. It isn't necessary to work the dough very much by hand. Time does the job.

I weigh out 480g flour in one bowl. 300g water in another. I add the yeast to the water and stir. Add salt to the flour. Pour about half the flour into the water and stir with a fork. Cover and let rest for 10-20 minutes. Then add the oil and mix well using a fork. Work in the remaining flour. When it comes together briefly knead. Gluten development isn't important here, as that will happen in the fridge; just thoroughly mix. If the flour stiffens too much while kneading, cover and let it rest a little while and then continue kneading. Divide into 2 portions, place in lightly oiled plastic bowls. Cover and refrigerate for 2-3 days.

Set bowls out on counter roughly 2 hours before bake time.

I use just shy of 8 ounces of cheese per pizza. So far, I prefer a combination of mozzarella and provalone. I still haven't measured how much sauce I use, though I should.

I bake in my old gas oven on a stone preheated at 550ish for an hour on the bottom rack for about 4:45, then move up to a screen on the top rack for another couple minutes to finish the top. I almost always have mushrooms and other moist toppings that benefit from the extended cooking/drying time. I intend to experiment with partially drying mushrooms in a dehydrator. Pre-cooking doesn't provide what I like.

When the first pizza is done I set it (along with the screen) on top of the stove burners to vent/rest while I make the next pizza. I move the pizza to a pan or baking sheet lined with paper towels when I need to use the screen for the next pizza.

I have only limited experience baking in other ovens, and as most know, ovens are a big YMMV factor. Quite some time ago when my oven was on the blink I used a newer oven across the street. That was fun. Make up a pizza and run it over to the oven. Same stone. However, this newer oven topped out at only 500 on the dial. Pizzas weren't nearly as good as baked at 550 in mine. Just not quite enough heat.

I'd love to try Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza recipe. Can someone convert/reduce the amount of ingredients so that the dough makes about three 14-inch pizzas?

GarlicLover,

I know you are in Germany but can you tell us what kinds of flours you have available to you to attempt the Lehmann NY style dough recipe? For your information, a NY style dough in general benefits from a flour with a protein content of from about 12.7% to around 14.2%, and preferably bromated. However, I can understand that you will not be able to locate a source of bromated flour in Germany.

I also understand that you do not currently have a pizza stone but are using a perforated disk or a cutter pan. Do you intend to buy a pizza stone? I further understand that you do not currently have a scale. Do you intend to buy one or are you also asking for a version specified by volume measurements.

Also, are you after a thin crust version of the NY style, and what fermentation period are you after?

It might be possible to come up with a dough formulation for you to try but we won't know for sure until you can provide information to guide us.

I'm new to the forum, but I've been reading it for a while. I only recently bought a scale, which helped my pizzamaking a lot, but my attempts at homemade starters never really panned out. Below are a couple of my first lehmann dough attempts. The first one was a same-day dough (man's gotta eat) of around 59% hydration using IDY only. Second was a similar hydration, but I let that one cold-ferment for 3 days. Predictably, the second one was much tastier. I think it sat in the refrigerator a little too long though because when I was laying out the dough a massive bubble formed in it that I had to pop. I sifted the flour twice and used rest periods when mixing. Both of them were around 5 minute bakes at just over 500 degrees. Left the stone on the bottom rack. I need to work on drying the cheese when using fresh mozzarella. Still, slowly making progress thanks to all the info on this site.

I used ingredients per Peter's reply # 68 on this thread with the exception of the VWG.

I hand kneaded the dough, oiled lightly and refrigerated for 24Hrs. I then removed and let the dough come to room temp (65F) for 2 hours. I hand tossed the dough to approximately fit a 16" perforated pizza pan. Dough seemed exceptionally easy to work with and I was able to get almost paper thin. Covered with sauce, shredded whole milk mozz. (Sargento), pepperoni (Hormel)and fresh basil. I thought I had this one nailed but dough ended up quite hard and didn't have the air pockets I was expecting. It also shrunk in diameter about and inch during the baking process. Baked on middle rack of preheated oven at 475F for 10 mins, then turned on broiler at 500F for 5 mins.

The mistakes I know I made were; 1) Using volume as opposed to weight measurements2) Baking on pizza pan vs. stone

Once I find my pizza stone I will attempt again using weight measurements and maybe longer cold ferment times.