What's In a (Utah) Name?

by Cari Bilyeu Clark

When my husband and I moved from Utah to the Washington, D.C. area seventeen years ago, we knew nothing of the inadvertent legacy we carried from our four years in Utah. Shortly after we arrived in our new home, we saw a television commercial for a local grocery store chain. The spokeswoman's name was the unusual "Odonna." "She's gotta be from Utah," I said to my husband. "That's a Utah name if I ever heard one."

We eventually learned that Odonna was, indeed, Utah born and bred.

It dawned on us that many names we'd heard during our college careers, and found only mildly remarkable, were indeed unique to the Utah Mormon culture. Thus began our quest to define what makes some names singularly Utahn, and what sets them apart from ethnic names with roots in other cultures, such as Juanita or Shoshanna; or African-American names such as Tawanda and Shaquille; or the newly common, soap-operaesque handles such as Skylar, Tiffany, Raven, and Adrienne. There's a difference, and it's not just the obviously Mormon scriptural names like Mahonri or Nephi or Moroni. Often identifying a Utah name is a gut feeling akin to Justice Potter Stewart's definition of pornography: you know it when you see it.

The quintessential Utah name often has a French-sounding prefix such as Le-, La-, Ne-, or Va-. Often names appear to have genesis in the combined names of the parents--Veradeane or GlenDora, for example. Related is the practice of feminizing the father's name--as in Vonda (dad is Vaughan) or Danetta. Others, such as Snell or Houser, appear to be surnames called into service as first names.

Related is the curious tendency, more common in Utah than elsewhere, for men (women do not seem to do this) to use the first initial, then the full middle name as the given name, such as L. Flake Roberts, who ran for office in Utah County when we lived there. (Come on, you've noticed this habit among the general authorities of the LDS church!) Besides puzzling over why someone would want to be known as "Flake," it makes one wonder just what the "L" stands for.

[Hmmmm. Where have we heard about that before? --A.J.]

So my husband and I entertained ourselves by collecting the often bizarre names we found in Utah publications (including the obituaries, which indicates that this is not a recent fad) and of Utah natives we met. We compiled a list and shared it with our friends, who often as not had a few more to add. We really hit a bonanza when one woman shared our observations with her mother, who worked at a Utah bank and had access to lots of names. She started her own list and began sending the names to us. (My personal favorite, LaNondus, came from this source.) Another friend told us of a set of sisters, all of whose names began with "Ja."

Once my husband had Internet access, he collected more names and corresponded with another couple who amused themselves the same way. They made cleverly categorized lists: "The ward choir director's daughters: LaVoice, Choral, Audia."

It makes you wonder what some parents were thinking when, for instance, they named their baby girl Lanae (la-nay)--and she unfortunately ended up with a big nose (le nez [la-nay] in French means "the nose"). Or the girl named M'Lu--are clever wags endlessly asking her to skip to it? And how the heck do people with apostrophes in their names fill out computerized forms? There's no apostrophe space. The guy I really pity, though, is the one saddled with the unfortunate moniker, Rube.

Of course, parents cannot predict what new interpretations the marketplace will bring to the names they lovingly bestow on their offspring. I once worked at a company which had dealings with a woman named LaPriel (pronounced la-prell). When I told my former roommate about this inexplicable first name, she sardonically replied, "What's her sister's name--LaTegrin?"

With the generally larger-than-average family, often saddled with the very ordinary surnames Smith, Johnson, or Young, it's not surprising that many Utah parents look for unique given names for their children. When you throw in the reverence for family and ancestors forwarded by the LDS Church, it seems inevitable that someone would end up with LaEarl, KDell, Arnolene or Hariella.

Some names, though, seem to defy description--if not pronunciation. While pride of place may have spawned Utahna, how did somebody come up with Wealtha? And while Lloydine's genesis seems plausible, how on earth were Printha or Noy coined? And I have no idea what constitutes the correct pronunciation for Kairle or Tawhnye. (I suspect they may be wildly creative spellings of Carol and Tonya.)

Perhaps the following list (by no means comprehensive) will amuse you. Perhaps it will offend you. Perhaps you will find your name, or the name of a relative, on it. Or perhaps you will be so enchanted by a particular name that you'll want to bestow it upon one of your own offspring. If that is your plan, first do this: go to the back door, fling it open and yell the name at the top of your lungs six or eight times, because that's how it's going to be heard for the next eighteen years. And remember, when little Wynante (boy or girl, you choose) grows up, you'll have to live with the consequences.

In a class of their own (In fact, I'm not sure I believe these but we asked for details and a confirmation and got convincing replies, so here they are): NaLa'DeLuhRay, Phakelikaydenicia, Zaragrunudgeyon ("Zarg," for short), Jennyfivetina, Tiarrhea, Nudity, VulvaMae, DaLinda LaDale, Tugdick, Saunsceneyouray, and, yes... Clitoris.

["Well, it sounded pretty when the doctor said it, and my wife Placenta likes it."]

Most "Chri$tian$" such as yourself IGNORE most of the scriptures, picking and choosing those they will embrace, and putting aside the great majority because they are "too hard" to live and "too hard" to understand.

As you know, and will lie through your teeth to deny, our prophets and apostles are NOTHING like the "princes of the Church" in Roman Catholicism. They are not "career Chri$tian$" like the blood-suckers that I have known all my life, growing up in the South.

In all cases, they are men with jobs and families, who have taken out of their own time and that of their precious families, the time needed to administer the Lord's church.

Make no mistake about it: This is the TRUE CHURCH on the Earth, beside which all others are mere pale imitations, having a form of godliness but DENYING the power thereof.

Our prophets and our apostles are some of the most profoundly wise men ever put on this planet.

You might take the time to read some of their words, which are freely available HERE. There you will read nothing but the words of life and salvation, and the wisdom contained in those words will forever silence and confound the likes of you who battle against God and His Christ, which is what you are about every time you post here.

Make no mistake: To the extent you realize the evil you perpetrate, you WILL pay the uttermost farthing.

Open your eyes man.. these LDS prophets get plenty of "perks" ..lots more than a pathetic Christian Pastor 's salary....

What an odd comparison: A minister with a prophet.

Why don't you try some HONEST discussion for a change? It'd be refreshing.

Why don't you compare an LDS Bishop with someone like Ed Young, "pastor" of that great whited sepulchre, Houston Second Baptist?

That'd be FAR more appropriate.

Oh, and Bishops aren't "bivocational." They give of their time and talents, without so much as a farthing in payment, to administer the needs of their congregations. And they do so without having to attend these silly Chri$tian "seminaries" and such as that.

"A single glimpse beyond the veil reveals more of heaven and its laws than all the sermons of uninspired preachers combined." --Elder Bruce R. McConkie, "The Mortal Messiah: From Bethlehem to Calvary," 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979-1981], 1: 370.

KJV Luke 18:10-14 10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Pres. Hinckley uses the private aircraft of Jon Huntsman, CEO of Huntsman Corp. and a member of the Church.

The Church's penury with respect to its daily operations is famous. These aren't cushy jobs with "perks." The income the Church derives from tithing and other sources including business holdings goes directly to operating expenses, with little wasted on frippery.

Swallowing the Chri$tian lie means ignoring SOME things Christ wrote in favor of others. ~ Illbay

Speaking of lies, why don't you tell me about your "Father and your God Adam". I do so enjoy a good fairy tale and you Mormons can really spin a good whopper from Kolob.

And FWIW, those who profess Christ AND seek to keep His commandments, including the dictum to "be perfect" (meaning as perfect as we are able to be given our level of knowledge) are able to have eternal life, which is life EXACTLY LIKE our Father has. ~ Illbay, who secret desire is to "be like the Most High"

Weren't you listening to me: "I have already been perfected forever." I already have eternal life; I have already been given a verdict and shall not come into judgment. Right now, I reign with the risen King in the midst of His enemies.

Why do you look afar off for what is already at hand? It is because you are blinded by your self-centered desires. You need to repent and climb out of your wallowing in Satan's vomit. Seek first the kingdom of God and all His righteousness. Quit looking for salvation in all the wrong places.

In that case, the LDS knowledge does not discard faith, but realizes that faith is NOTHING (that is, "dead," as James states) without the effort to obey the commandments. ~ Illbay

Illbay, Illbay, Illbay, I see that you are boasting in your works based salvation. Unfortunately, when my Lord returns, He will not be impressed with your works. You will receive your just wages for your works unless you repent. You shall be put into the prison of the Lake of Fire and you shall never be released until you pay the very last mite. Unfortunately, as you will have transgressed against a Person of infinite worth, your debt will be of infinite magnitude. You will watch me and all the saints enjoy the pleasures of God for ever and ever while you burn. Repent while there is still time.

The LORD has stored up His wisdom for those of us who are upright. It is hidden in Christ, whom I have right now.

Because wisdom has entered my heart I have the understanding that keeps me from the way of evil. Mormonism is a way of evil. Why can you not see this? It is because you do not have His wisdom as you have just confessed. Please repent before you become a blood stain on the Lord's garment. Buy the Truth and sell it not!

Woody.

"He who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." ~ 1 Co 2:15

You missed the point the places I been to growing up had an outline of the Lord. I was looking for Jesus Christ and he did have his own Church. Not the Church of St Steven or Peter. But Jesus House of Worship!

I read about it in the Bible is the path I was looking for!

Matt.7 13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 ¶ Beware of *false prophets, which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. (*Do as I say crowd,not as I do)

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. *Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?(*distort truth, slopful, don't keep the Lord commandments)

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; *but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.(* Ignores keeping the Lord commandments)

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a *corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.(* mock and continue to use "The Ends Justify The Means!")

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore *by their fruits ye shall know them.

***

(Gal.522 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another

***

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(because though one say they believe really did not enter into the Striaght and Narrow gate! You all were having a free for all, with the various parts of the Lords doctrine, that is why there are over ten of thousands CHINOS- Chirsitian In Name Only!

24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

( a few years back there was a tornado in SLC and it torn many building to pieces, they have a video of the SL Temple inside was a wedding taking place out side was the tornado swriling all around the House of the Lord and nothing was harmed!

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having *authority, and not as the scribes.(at that time Jesus gave his authority to Peter until the preisthood was again from the earth an in the Latter Days when the priesthood was restored he gave the authority to Joseph Smith in this last and final dispensation!

I found all of the thing the Bible spoke about the Straight and Narrow path in

"The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints!"

I had enough so call of worship that -

"Do as I say, not as I do!" Who say they can't even "Keep The Lords Commandments" for in your minds it is impossible, or unable ot discern the Holy Spirit! for they lack faith. You folks have the weakest Spiritual Muscle of Faith I have ever witness!

You're wrong there. President Hinckley will take a chartered jet. When he was invited to the White House after 9/11 in 2001 for that meeting with President Bush with leaders from other faiths, Jon Huntsman used HIS own private jet to fly President Hinckley back to Washington DC. I know where President Hinckley lives, yes, it is very nice, but nothing outlandishly lavish. My brother worked on the plans of the building he lives in, and has been in the apartment. President Hinckley has his own den, with furniture there that he built with his own hands when he and his wife were first married. My brother said that there was this old ratty couch and a small fridge in the den also. Most of the leaders of the LDS church do not have money, and do receive, if necessary, some money to live. But they are frugal, because they know it is the Lord's money and they will be held accountable for how they spend it. I know this firsthand. I know how hard they work and how much they sacrifice for the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are no hidden perks.

418
posted on 01/30/2003 11:25:03 AM PST
by Utah Girl
(Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)

As you know, and will lie through your teeth to deny, our prophets and apostles are NOTHING like the "princes of the Church" in Roman Catholicism. They are not "career Chri$tian$" like the blood-suckers that I have known all my life, growing up in the South.

Naw I am not trembling Bill...Your pope prophet is a god to you..not to me..

Most Christian Ministers have jobs and families and do not have church jets to fly around in and they are not looking to a harem in heaven to meet their Celestial eternal sexual fantasy needs..They are looking to worshipping the one TRUE God...

Pres. Hinckley uses the private aircraft of Jon Huntsman, CEO of Huntsman Corp. and a member of the Church.

LOL so of course you too have access to that jet as a good and faithful mormon...orrrrrrrrrrrr could it be that it is a PERK??

The income the Church derives from tithing and other sources including business holdings goes directly to operating expenses, with little wasted on frippery.

LOL "other business holdings".Purchased with your tithe and managed for FREE right? Or could it be they PAY a management team? And who is on that PAID management team?. Any family of the pope..err I mean prophet? Your church is a business and if you do not think the men at the top benefit from all this wealth and power you are foolish..

Your"full time "leaders do not eat for free ..or drive a car for free..

UC one of the things that Mormons are taught to distain is a "paid clergy" What that means for most churches is far less than your church president..

The last church I attended the "preacher" was a post man and took no salary..the church before that the full time pastor had a wife and 5 daughters and a grand salary of $25,000 a year..He left a job that paid him over $100,000 to come to the ministry..he was available 24/7 to his people

Most Christian Pastors work a full time job and their wives work..they get a token salary ..(Pastor Jerry that posts here is a bi vocational pastor )

They do not have people to do work on their homes or have jets to fly on or the money to charter a plane...UC any of us can go out of our way not to look wealthy..but it is my guess that your President is not starving..does he have a full time job? Where does his income come from..or may only the wealthy aspire to be a prophet and president..is is a position that a poor guy could never hold?

I have no problem with paying a Pastor..as the bible tells us a "workman is worthy of his hire"...

Most of the outlandish wealth you see (other then the charlatons) Was self generated by books or tapes ..not paid for by tithes

UC one of the things that Mormons are taught to distain is a "paid clergy" What that means for most churches is far less than your church president.

Since you have NO IDEA what you're talking about...NONE!...I think you ought to get off this schtick. You just sound mean and ugly.

ONE MINISTER of one of the Chri$tian megachurches in the Houston area makes many times the allowance Pres. Hinckley gets for living expenses.

Billy Graham and his entourage consume a hundred times more in one year than do all the LDS general authorities put together, in terms of expenses for their lavish theatrical productions they call "crusades."

You and your "Chri$tian" ilk are hypocrites of the worst stripe, and you WILL pay for it one day, if you do not repent.

ONE MINISTER of one of the Chri$tian megachurches in the Houston area makes many times the allowance Pres. Hinckley gets for living expenses.

Ohhhh he does not get a "salary", he gets an "allowance"...so what is included in the 'living allowance' ? Housing"?Utilities? Auto? (all belonging to the church and not taxable? Unlike the income of the pastor of the mega church..)..How much walking around spending money does he get? (More than the $25,000 that the pastor with the 5 kids gets?)

Bill changing the name from salary to "allowance" does not make him "unpaid clergy"....It just means that none of you REALLY know his income..or his wifes or kids that work for the church..

Billy Graham and his entourage consume a hundred times more in one year than do all the LDS general authorities put together, in terms of expenses for their lavish theatrical productions they call "crusades."

I hold no brief for Billy Graham..but much of his PERSONAL income is from books and soforth..and if we want to talk about lavish hey the temple in Salt lake ain't bad..and as far as productions go I have seen your choir..it is pot ..kettle ....black....

The "lavish stuff" the Church has are income CONSUMING. They are for the edification of the world--yes, even an ingrate such as yourself.

The Church donates time, resources, supplies and manpower to worthy causes the world over, including Catholic Charities and many Protestant initiatives.

Again, you're trying to impute evil where there is none. You'd best turn your attention closer to home; somewhere another Robert Tilton, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker or Benny Hinn is ripping off thousands of people in the false name of God.

I think we are alot smarter than you think ..if it looks like a Duck and it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck..you my man have a paid clergy..

BTW I have no problem with that..I believe it is scripitual ..if you guys want him to be a paulper or live like a king it is your dime...just do not think we are so stupid to believe he lives on nothing..my guess is that "allowance " when all the perks are added in is quite handsome ..I have seen his suits (or are they on an expense account? )

Does anyone in your church have the total compensation package or is it a secret?

The LDS Church boasts of not having a paid clergy. Many of them believe that when a man receives a salary from a particular group it compromises his integrity. Even though their leaders on the local level receive no pay for their services, this is not true of their top leadership. President Gordon B. Hinckley stated: "What of the Mormon clergy? ...There is no paid or professional ministry. Thirty-nine general officers and the presidents of missions are given living allowances."

Encyclopedia of Mormonism

"Because the Church has no professional clergy, it is administered at every level through LAY PARTICIPATION AND LEADERSHIP, and officials other than the General Authorities contribute their time and talents without remuneration. ...Because the General Authorities are obliged to leave their regular employment for full-time Church service, they receive a modest living allowance provided from income on Church investments."

Since the Mormon Church concedes the right to pay those who serve in a full-time capacity we are left to wonder why they have such strong objections to ministers receiving a "modest living allowance." The claim is made that these funds do not come from tithing but from business investments. Why this should make a difference is not explained. Any money given to or earned by the church should be considered as equally sacred.

The president is also supplied with a home. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, Aug. 27, 1994, p. E1, the president of the LDS Church lives in a "downtown condominium, the official residence of church presidents." In the Salt Lake Tribune, Dec. 8, 1988, we read "The $1.2 million condominium at 40 N. State that is home to the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be exempt from property taxes, Salt Lake County commissioners ruled Tuesday."

Also, the LDS Church maintains a general missionary fund. Many missionaries come from either poor countries or their families are not able to contribute to their mission.

"Missionary support is primarily a family responsibility... However, members are also encouraged to contribute to assist those missionaries who have insufficient finances." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism,)

Since some LDS missionaries receive support from a general fund why object to missionaries in other churches receiving funds from their church?

Even though Mission Presidents (men who oversee the missionaries in various geographical locations) resign from their secular jobs during their three years of church service, they still receive financial help. In the Encyclopedia of Mormonism we read:

"The calling [to be a Mission President] is not a regular remunerative position,...The family involved gives of its time and energies without salary, though there is a modest allowance for living expenses." (p. 914)

Again we are left to wonder at the Mormon distinction between "living expenses" and "salary."

Another puzzling aspect of Mormonism is that there is no accounting to the membership of church funds. They are never informed as to the amount of the "modest living allowance" given to their top leaders. In the Wall Street Journal, Nov. 9, 1983, the salary given to a Seventy (second tier of LDS General Authorities, lower than an Apostle) was reported to be $40,000. Obviously, with inflation this salary would be much higher today. If housing is factored in (as in the case of the president of the church) the salary would be quite substantial. When George P. Lee, former Seventy, was terminated in 1989, the LDS Church immediately confiscated his church credit card (Salt Lake Tribune, Sept. 10, 1989). We are left to wonder about what other benefits go with "full-time Church service." For more information on LDS wealth see Mormon America: The Power and the Promise, by Richard and Joan Ostling.

In Christian churches the financial statement is a matter of public record. There is no guesswork as to the amount a church pays its minister.

1. living allowances
2. living expenses
3. How many church credit cards are out there?
4. How come no accounting of church funds? What's being hidden?

We received my churches finacial statements in our mailboxes at church Sunday. Everything was laid out. And if I had any questions I could walk up to any Elder or the Treasurer and that man would have answered any questions I have.

Each year we have an annual budget meeting. I've been to many a meeting where everything was discussed and questions were answered. Then the budget was voted on.

The ONLY people who are paid in the LDS church are the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the Area presidents (who oversee the mission presidents, etc), some of the seventies (I think the First Quorum, I will have to find out to be factual.) That is probably 100- people (the figure may be low), who run a church of 11 million. The bishops, stake presidents, regional presidents, and ALL callings in the church are not paid, we are volunteers. That includes cleaning the churches weekly (no janitors), cleaning the temples (pretty much volunteer, except for the yearly cleaning when the temple is closed and repairs are made, carpets cleaned, etc.) I know for a fact that those who are called to the general presidencies (such as Primary, Young Women, and Relief Society) are not paid. As to the reason the few leaders are paid, is because they devote their time to the Lord and to running a worldwide church. Like Illbay said a few posts ago, there is no extra frippery for these men. They are very aware that they will be held accountable on how they have spent their money.

One personal note. When my father was called as a mission president, he had just retired. He was given a certain amount of money for his duties, and there was a home provided for he and my mother to live in (known as the mission president's home.) My dad had a budget for gasoline when he went on the mission's business to visit the missionaries he was in charge of to see how they were doing. When we went down to visit my parents in Chile, any family or sightseeing trips he and my mom took were paid for out of their own pockets. Oh, and a car was provided for the mission president. My father was very aware of the money angle, as were the other mission presidents, and are very careful to spend the money appropriately that is provided by the church.

And believe you me, most of us LDS people do not aspire to become an apostle or whatever. There might be a few, but there isn't a system where one works his way up the hierarchy of the church. We are called of the Lord to serve him and to serve others in our wards, stakes, etc.

And you are comparing apples to oranges. A pastor in your church is comparable to a bishop in my ward (oversees about 400 people, depending on the location.) The bishop is not paid in our church. You are comparing your pastor who has one congregation to a prophet, or apostles, or an area president who are over many wards and stakes.

I know that President Hinckley came from very humble circumstances. President Monson was raised by a widowed mother. Elder Russell Nelson was a heart surgeon. Elder Dallin H Oaks was a lawyer. Elder Boyd K Packer worked for the Church Educational System (like my dad did,the salary was nothing to shout about at all.) Men and women are called from all walks of life, it is their worthiness and willingness to serve the Lord with all their hearts, might, mind, and souls that determines their callings in the LDS church. Not their social status or how much money they are worth.

444
posted on 01/30/2003 4:15:51 PM PST
by Utah Girl
(Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)

Please stop impugning the integrity of our church leaders. We do NOT have a paid clergy. But I think you think you have found something that gets our goat, so you will keep harping on this issue. I trust the leaders of my church, and no matter how you want to smear them, and turn one of us against another by insinuating that some get allowances and live high on the hog, and others don't, you are far from the truth.

445
posted on 01/30/2003 4:19:23 PM PST
by Utah Girl
(Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on his way!!!)

Each LDS should file this, for future Reference! For offensive souls keep bring up the same questions everytime a new book rearranges the truth to spin it in a new mode to see if it will fly! and when *BD sets in, they repeating themselves!

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