89 replies so far

I recently finished a hand carved Sign for a cousin… originally planned to be Outside… Located in Paradise, CA… Northern Calif. about 50 miles North of Sacramento, near Chico.

I used a Penetrating Epoxy to really protect Live edges… Followed by a satin marine spar varnish… Looks great!The varnish was done for the extra UV protection as you described.

They have not mounted it outside… are just enjoying it INSIDE in their living room.

I have just informed them… along with your video… In short, my message to them was…“If I were you, I would keep on enjoying it Inside and NOT Outside.”

The crazy thing… I studied hard to be sure I got the Best Exterior finish possible… The Penetrating Epoxy initial treatment WAS, I feel, a good step. Without it, I’m sure some of the edges would not have lasted over the years.

Funny… my very first thought of Finishing it was a few coats of BLO where it could be easily refreshed over the years to make it look again… LOL

Charles thanks for the heads up, this is almost as bad as the wood for humidifier boxes you had to deal with a ways back , down here we deal with it a lot of these issues in Louisiana , i just use cypress as much as i can and tell customers bleach it every now and then but then im also just a small shop
, , those are some great looking chaires do you have a cd or blog on them ,if a politician tell me something im not going to wait for it , :)

Sorry Eddie, I didnt do a video on the,chairs, the client is an arts and craft fan, so we kinda designed one similar to a Morris chair.

BTW Guys I do have to say all the walnut plugs were glued in with Tightbond III , I was scared to death we were going to have to TRY to drill out all those plugs and start over, but none failed Thankfully

We are having the pieces professionally stripped, and its not touching the mold, thus far the bleach, which actually is pool “shock it” mixed super strong, we power washed the pieces first and the mold is under the finish so where there was mold, ( look at the back in the video) , we were able to get it down to basically raw wood, then we bleached the @#$% out of it, then power washed again, to neutralize and then a bath with baking soda, now we are sanding our butts off,then a bath of Borax to kill the mold “roots” . We will let these dry super well and watch for any mold to return.

BTW, power washing wood isnt a real good idea, but this was white oak, and its hard and dense , and while we have alot of grain raising, it was done as a last resort”

That spar finish should not be on the market period.I doubt they’ll change the direction on the label one bit , with all the extra steps you mentioned, no one’s going to buy such product and let’s not forget, the application process is to be repeated yearly, wow.

Distrbd,Man I havent done anything, I still sanding and treating, 30 some odd pieces, its going to take a while. I plan to let these things dry for a month or 2 and watch for any signs of more mold, If so, I start over.

Guys transport from Vermont to here in Va is 4400.00 alone then getting them stripped another 38 to 4k or so, then we have to deal with the mold,and all the sanding and prep for whatever finish we decide to use, and if the mold re-appears, its start over, I have to stand behind my products.

Now I see and understand how involved you are on this issue. At least mine wasn’t a finished product. If it wasn’t for the challenge of figuring this one out, I’m sure it would be cheaper to rebuild all the chairs.

-- Dave, Downers Grove, Il. -------- When you run out of ideas, start building your dreams.

Thank you for sharing your experience; for me, there is nothing worse than a “coating” failure on your project. When this happens most will points fingers- but when this happens to me I know that there is a reason, for the failure. Sure I get angry but sometimes it is my fault but other times theirs. I looked into “white Oak for outdoor furniture” and found this company that makes and sells outdoor white oak furniture, for it may be, of interest to some. https://www.sittineasy.com/ Currently, I am doing a test on Padauk, to prevent UV sun damage, by comparing 3 products on a test board- in 1 months time, one product is starting to “change” the other 2 are holding up (outdoors in AZ western exposure”) I will post a review January 2017. Mr Neil, as a business man to another, thanks for the “heads up” on mold and may I respectfully suggest that you cover them with Zinzer Stain kill, then paint them. You could call them “Charles Neil limited edition Summer chair”. Coatings, coatings and coatings ….

Sorry to see the failure of finish.Back in late seventies when Vans were popular I made running boards, flares, visor, bumper push bar, ladder and roof rack all out out OAK. Use a marine varnish, Looked nice …......first year. I could not keep a finish on it. Sun, water all took their toll. I finally removed them and made metal.Iwas hoping in 40 years there would be a exterior finish for wood that lasts. I guess not yet !Thankyou for making the video, always good to watch.

I submitted a question to system 3 – https://support.systemthree.com/hc/en-us?return_to=%2Fhc%2Fen-us%2Frequests asking about a mold problem-“Charles Neil (if you do not know who he is, then plase disregard my question) is posting that he is fustrated with your product, with no resolution. ( see Lumberjocks forum- ) Q: why would mold form on his “white oak” chairs or any other wood? I had a similar experience with quarter sawn .25 red Oak veneer cabient door panels. Shorthly after coating ,with 4 coats of lacquer- the mold devil’s appeared! As a coating manfacturer can you offer advice to us woodworkers. I will respectfully post your answer if it enlightens fellow woodworkers?—-” Woodworkers this should be an issue about “coatings”

Thanks for the Information Charles, I hate to hear that something like this is happening at your expense. I consider you the finish expert of woodworkers. I had a similar situation with painting a large shop floor. Did everything correct, prepped properly, tested concrete moisture, everything per coating specs. 2 weeks later, paint was coming up. coating manufacture had a reason why it was my fault no matter what.

Folks, thanks so much for all the responses, I sure have alot to look at and consider, I will definitely be doing some more research , I will let you know what I decide to use, but it may be decided with a coin toss,(:

Charles, you have deleted anything that we have attempted to post to the comments section of your YouTube video, so I guess I will post here. I am going to paste the email that I sent you when you asked for feedback on your video so that your fans have some additional context.

——————————————-

Mr. Neil,

Randy has brought me up to speed, and I’ll be your point of contact going forward. I’d like to first recap where we’re at, and how we got here.

In the Fall of 2013, we sent you samples of our new varnish for your professional evaluation of its application characteristics. Your initial impressions were very positive and you requested additional samples – another 12 quarts of product, which we supplied to further your evaluation. You did not specify how you intended to evaluate these additional samples. We did not hear from you again until July, 2016 when you brought the chairs in your video to our attention.

Had you told us that you intended on using the additional samples to finish a large outdoor wood furniture project that would be subjected to sustained, harsh conditions, we would have recommended applying epoxy to the wood first, prior to applying varnish. This is the System Three standard, and you would have received this advice had you spoken with anyone at System Three prior to finishing. We would then have directed you to our Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood brochure, which has been readily available on our website for over 10 years. Furthermore, we would have suggested that you tell your client to put these chairs under cover during the winter to avoid wet freezing and thawing cycles – the proximate cause of the cracking in the varnish which led to the entry of mold and mildew.

There are a number of inaccuracies in your video:

• You claim to have discussed this project with us beforehand. As noted above, you did not do so. • You did not ask about the suitability of our varnish as a standalone finish for outdoor wood in harsh environments. We would not have recommended this as it would have been contrary to our published literature. • The brochure outlining our recommended approach to finishing outdoor wood is not a reaction to your situation. As stated, this has long been the System Three standard, and the brochure has been easily accessible on our website for many years.• The Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood brochure recommends the use of our System Three Clear Coat epoxy. This is a thin epoxy easily brushed on all parts of the wood to prevent moisture cycling. It is not poured on the wood; it is brushed on the wood.

Your project failed because for whatever reason your client did not take proper care of the beautiful chairs you made for him and because you did not follow the guidelines in our brochure, Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood. There would have been no failure otherwise.

Product may have been a little misleading by not clearly stating that you need epoxy undercoating for exterior products??

Charles could have been a little negligent exploring the product completely?? (Apparently a rep was involved and the questions/uses were never addressed)??

Just curious, was the additional 12 quarts supplied to you the product that you used on the chairs?If so, I don’t think that was morally right. Using free sample product, meant for evaluation purposes, on a paying clients job?

-- If anyone would like to see my Portfolio, PM me and I would be glad to send you the link.

Charles is a full blown Finishing expert and when he screws up he admits it. I’ve talked to him a number of times when he said he talked to the company rep with many finishing products, I’m sure he told the rep what he was going to do and the rep didn’t cover all the basis. When he was writing one of his books on finishing what took him so long is that he tested the products he was writing about before he would give details in his book, that took months and months to do.When it comes to outdoor finishes the only way to test them is to put it on something and subject it to harsh conditions the products going to experience. Unless your “Consumer Reports” who can do that? I happen to know Charles paid full blown retail for the product,but even if he hadn’t there’s nothing wrong with using free samples ,the companies that give samples away only do it in expectations of getting some good advertising from well know people in the field that use it.is that morally right or is that bribery ?

Charles is a full blown Finishing expert and when he screws up he admits it. I ve talked to him a number of times when he said he talked to the company rep with many finishing products, I m sure he told the rep what he was going to do and the rep didn t cover all the basis. When he was writing one of his books on finishing what took him so long is that he tested the products he was writing about before he would give details in his book, that took months and months to do.When it comes to outdoor finishes the only way to test them is to put it on something and subject it to harsh conditions the products going to experience. Unless your “Consumer Reports” who can do that? I happen to know Charles paid full blown retail for the product,but even if he hadn t there s nothing wrong with using free samples ,the companies that give samples away only do it in expectations of getting some good advertising from well know people in the field that use it.is that morally right or is that bribery ?

- a1Jim

I’ll wait until Charles can confirm or deny it. You weren’t there so you don’t know. (unless you were there, were you?) I’ll address your comments and my thoughts regarding samples later.

-- If anyone would like to see my Portfolio, PM me and I would be glad to send you the link.

Yes a person can post a review, defame a product and there are posts that demonstrate bad products. This particular post gave his “opinion” or what he believes to be true. Then the company rep steps in and tells a different side to the story. In addition, the company spokesman tells us that he was “censored” on Neil’s you tube channel; he even included the “documentation”? As Jbay stated I will wait for Charles Neil to speak in his own defense. I am a fan of Charles Neil but not as fervent as others who blindly jump to his defense. Mr. Neil without documentation on your part to verify your charges this doesn’t look good for your side. For example, in the video you show a flyer from the company that that you say:”Now they have a brochure…..” The company rep says that this has been available for 10 years. In conclusion: For me this a costly and heartbreaking thing to happen to a woodworker but if I were System3 I would sue you for defamation of my product. My advice do not reply any more “stuff” For there is a saying- “More people are hung with their tongue than rope” If the System3 rep is reading , can you send me 12 quarts of sample to “test”

The original post is his opinion based on his experience with the company. Knowing Charles, I will gladly stand by his side. I believe any company spokesman will convincingly promote their companies position. Many people probably have good luck with their products. The product used in this instance failed. It happens.

Charles Video shows the stuff that he’s made of taking the time and effort to make a video showing others what not to use in certain applications and the problem he had with it, even though he knows there’s always some supposed Charles Neil fan or some troll out there ready to take any manufacturers side or just to play judge and jury against him. many of these types are just jealous of Charles talent. I would guess the biggest and most complicated thing that they may have finished was a bird house. It would have been much easier for Charles just to take his best shot at fixing the problem and never letting anyone know there was a problem.His exposing of the problem may save many others from the same problem and give them an alternative.

Charles Video shows the stuff that he s made of taking the time and effort to make a video showing others what not to use in certain applications and the problem he had with it, even though he knows there s always some supposed Charles Neil fan or some troll out there ready to take any manufacturers side or just to play judge and jury against him. many of these types are just jealous of Charles talent. I would guess the biggest and most complicated thing that they may have finished was a bird house. It would have been much easier for Charles just to take his best shot at fixing the problem and never letting anyone know there was a problem.His exposing of the problem may save many others from the same problem and give them an alternative.- a1Jim

Why is Charles Neil mute since the SYSTEM3 rep posted his side? You are very similar to James Carvel the Demoractic spokesman, defending Hillary’s email cover up. THIS FORUM IS ABOUT HOW TO HELP FELLOW WOODWORKERS! What does your comment offer to a solution on the problem? A: to attack those who openly ask and question Charles Neil. My advice to Charles, keep your mouth shut..

Joe until we find out; “how to stop the mold Devils “ a coating does not fail by happenstance, again there is a reason for product failure. If you read my previous posts, this happened to me- All I want to know is how stop these tragic results, not only for my interest but to others on LumberJocks that read these posts, to learn from “mistakes” without being “censored”! Maybe Stumpy Nubbs can give his opinion for he is back.

What does your comment offer to a solution on the problem? I guess we can be pretty brave and judgmental when we don’t post a photo, real name,location or any information on our home page, should we conclude people like that are wanted some were or have something to hide? Perhaps they are friends with James Carvel ? Ha Ha ha

Maybe so, but why is Charles mute? Again this would be a wise choice. The problem is about “mold” in a woodworkers finished product! I will probally use System3 in future projects, even if they don’t give me 12 quarts of product to test.

There is a time to talk and a time to listen, I am listening.I like to fish, and something I learned along time ago , you do much better if you keep the bait in the water.

First off , we have nothing on our youtube channel from Sys3, and nothing has been blocked, perhaps his response was too large, I have had that happen, we do multiple short comments. I have no clue.

I will respond to all this in the next few days, With full documentation , not an issue.There is a lot of emails to sort thru from numerous folks.

Lets be clear on the 12 qts, after testing the 1 quart, I like it, it went on nice , gave a good look, etc. I called Dick Anderson ( pres or owner , not sure) at sys3, and point blank ask him if this product would work on all this stuff , and sent him pictures, he assured me it would , then offered the 12 qts , for me to use to demo and have people see me using the product. Understand nothing is free, we then bought 24 more qts , I mean take a look guys, 12 qts wasn’t going to touch this. We didn’t have a gauge as to how much ,having never used the product in a large run log work. In the end we had 8 left, I gave 2 to the client, and the rest remained here and i have given that to finishing class students over the years, I think there may be 1 or 2 still in the finishing building. Now think about this, why would sys 3 send me 12 qts of 36.00 per qt to evaluate, I had already done that. But then ask yourself, what would i be using and testing an exterior finish for, ......exterior use maybe , so than with the initial test why was the epoxy not mentioned and provided so the test could be done correctly.

Folks are down A1Jims back , but let me explain , Jim is a long time good friend, and to be blunt he is privileged to more info than you guys have been thus far.

I do agree with Desert, system three needs to sue me, they said if I released the video, they would . of course they said I threatened, them …Didnt happen, I send the video to them private on you tube and told them this was the video, and they could see the mass body of failure. End of storythey responded with

Charles –

Let’s again recap where things stand.

On Friday, September 23rd, you sent us the link to your video and asked for our comments. Yesterday, September 28th, I replied with my thoughts and suggestions. You replied, “Not to worry, I am refilming the Video tomorrow, I’ll make sure your points are addressed.”

After that, you have:

• Again threatened the public release of a new video disparaging our brand and product

• Interfered with our business relationship with Woodcraft Supply

We will await publication of your video if this is the course of action that you decide to pursue. Be advised that after this point you will have given us little option but to turn all communications and material over to our attorney. You may want to consult with your own attorney before publishing additional content.

At this point it is not clear how you’d like to resolve this situation.

Lets be clear on the 12 qts, after testing the 1 quart, I like it, it went on nice , gave a good look, etc. I called Dick Anderson ( pres or owner , not sure) at sys3, and point blank ask him if this product would work on all this stuff , and sent him pictures, he assured me it would , then offered the 12 qts , for me to use to demo and have people see me using the product. Understand nothing is free, we then bought 24 more qts , I mean take a look guys, 12 qts wasn t going to touch this. We didn t have a gauge as to how much ,having never used the product in a large run log work. In the end we had 8 left, I gave 2 to the client, and the rest remained here and i have given that to finishing class students over the years, I think there may be 1 or 2 still in the finishing building. Now think about this, why would sys 3 send me 12 qts of 36.00 per qt to evaluate, I had already done that. But then ask yourself, what would i be using and testing an exterior finish for, ......exterior use maybe , so than with the initial test why was the epoxy not mentioned and provided so the test could be done correctly.

- CharlesNeil

Thanks for your explanation Charles,

”Folks are down A1Jims back”

Sometimes people start stuff instead of minding their own business. I had a simple question I was asking YOU.If you go back and read his comments, he was the one being rude.

-- If anyone would like to see my Portfolio, PM me and I would be glad to send you the link.

We have examined all of the evidence at our disposal along with the video that you produced regarding the mildew issue on the chairs.

The failure comes down to the following factors:

1. Your customer should have brought the furniture indoors or otherwise protected it during the Vermont winter. Freeze/thaw cycles cracked the thin varnish coat and allowed moisture to enter the wood, promoting mildew growth. It is your customer who has caused this problem – not System Three or its products.

2. Despite the negligence of your customer, had you followed the guidelines in our brochure Clear Finishing of Outdoor Wood and applied 2-3 coats of Clear Coat epoxy followed by 2-3 coats of varnish there likely would not be a problem today. This brochure was written by us over ten years ago and has been available through our web site since publication.

3. We supplied you with 12 quarts of varnish as part of a beta testing program for this product. Had you told us what you planned to do with this we would have recommended following the guidelines in the above brochure and likely pointed out that 12 quarts could not possibly provide sufficient protection without the epoxy base.

We bear no responsibility for this problem and so you will receive no compensation from us for it.

Maybe so, but why is Charles mute? Again this would be a wise choice. The problem is about “mold” in a woodworkers finished product! I will probally use System3 in future projects, even if they don t give me 12 quarts of product to test.

Now let me ask you a question if you were me, and you read both of these copies, and had spoken with system three who assure you it would work, would you go looking for a brochure on their website.

Better yet walk in a retail store and pick it up and read the can… nothing whatsoever about epoxy.But supposedly they are changing the label .. thats another story for another day.I have a finishing class in process.

Charles Neil best to you and thank you for your contributations to the industry. In conclusion, for me this post was about a product failure and the relationship between the supplier and customer. I am looking forward to hearing about the outcome of a ruined project. Also, I will recant “I will use System3 products”

Charles, thanks for your video and your followup comments. I always enjoy your posts here on LJs. I think that you summed things up the best when you said at the beginning of the video that your mistake was that you trusted a finish company.
You and Bob Flexner should go have a beer sometime and talk about all the ridiculous claims finish manufacturers make.

I think we have made our point and our case, so as far as i am concerned this discussion is closed until we decide what to use. Thats up to sys3.

I am looking hard at a product called one time, its a penetrarting oil, I also tested this, about 3 years or so ago, I simply brushed it on some not so nice plywood in one of my guys trailer floor, its worn now but the plywood looks great, and no mold or mildew. But still looking at other finishes, . At least with the One Time I have a long term test. Any one else tried it.

It’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback so I won’t.I did see this in there technical data sheet:

NOTES:When used alone, as much as 9-12 coats of varnish arecommonly used to protect marine brightwork. When used over 2-3 coats of System Three SilverTip epoxy resin, as little as 2-3coats will provide superior saltwater and UV-light protection.For health and safety information concerning this product, pleaserefer to the Material Safety Data Sheet for Spar Urethane Varnish.

I can’t imagine having to use 9 – 12 coats.

I’m not going to take sides since it’s a he said she said deal, but it was a pretty big risk to take knowing film finishes don’t hold up well. I wouldn’t even think of using one here in the desert. Won’t see mold but you can guarantee cracking.

Anyway, as a business man, I hate to see anybody have to eat work. I do feel for you. I would hate to have to deal with that.

I’m thinking rebuilding and penetrating oil. Maybe you can get some of the kids to clean up the old ones good enough to paint and resale to recoup a little of the loss.

-- If anyone would like to see my Portfolio, PM me and I would be glad to send you the link.

Jbay In my post I gave my opinion about the video,which I’m entitled to do as much as you if not more,given Charles is a friend of mine.Lets be clear I named no one by name and didn’t even say it was anyone in this thread that Charles had to deal with in the past,so if you took it on yourself that I was referring to you when I talked about trolls then we might know what you think your role on LJs must be.With your post you made assumptions that I was talking about others in this thread, seems a bit like paranoia like to me. I address no post to you until attacked me not the other way around,“(That’s all I wanted to hear before your biggest fan attacked me.)

“Ha Ha ha, very clever Jim! One paragraph you manage to call me/others a troll, jealous, judge and jury and make accusations of taking sides. Your lips are so far up his ass you couldn’t make an independent decision one way or the other. Why don’t you just let Charles handle it. He knows way more about it than you do.“Original comment was to Charles. (not his Chihuahua side kick)”

Many times your “MO” has involved Judging others,playing God ,acting as LJs law enforcement,and never admit one of your ideas could possibly wrong or another person’s idea could possibly be correct . I blocked you some time ago because of these repeated actions on my threads.

Your knowledgeable guy and give some great advice on LJs If your issue with me is that you think when I post I’m saying I’m more knowledgeable or experienced than you ,then Ill admit here and now you’er more experienced than myself and more knowledgeable in a lot of categories.

This is my last post on this thread so if you’re so inclined fire away.Peace!

give me a link to that, i have never seen that before either, but as a 50 year finisher, that much finish is going to crack and fail . you cant do that many “mills” , just saying . Its not a he said she said, what i have posted, I had hoped would be sufficient, oh there is alot more , from not only system three, but others, but I dont want to flame it, or involve others, There is an old cliche , ” make sure your right then go ahead” . Im good to go, and I know folks like a good drama, Im not interested unless forced. not my call.

I personally would prefer to put this to rest, but…..................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next time use a Polyester epoxy. More UV resistant. The most Ideal is pure addition set Silicone acetate. it will stay clear and sealed forever. SiCOOH(3)=O very UV stable because it is the crosslinked product of SiCOOH(2)-OH when exposed to UVlight. So silicone compounds get stronger when exposed to UV light. Military uses it for Naval applications for a while now. It will stick to wood.