Skill = applying vengeance.
Again, i can find reports of tanks with the same amount of veng and ~dmg intake doing +-50k dps from each other.
What's going to happen as veng gets nerfed is that this range will decrease until the point where it won't matter any more.

Skill = applying vengeance.
Again, i can find reports of tanks with the same amount of veng and ~dmg intake doing +-50k dps from each other.
What's going to happen as veng gets nerfed is that this range will decrease until the point where it won't matter any more.

Let's say we cut vengeance contribution to damage in half (there are several ways to approximate this - and by this logic, top end tank DPS will decrease by roughly 50%). That's still a 25k difference. Is this an "insignificant" difference?

Vengeance is only part of the problem, but I do think it needs a nerf on some level (hopefully after I level up my prot pally and get the lich king heroic mount lol) - the other half is that active mitigation is far better then regular mitigation (dodge and parry), to the point where you want to reforge out of dodge/parry gear or not even equip it. Active mitigation is a lot more interesting though then the old model, so I don't see this problem going away.

Let's say we cut vengeance contribution to damage in half (there are several ways to approximate this - and by this logic, top end tank DPS will decrease by roughly 50%). That's still a 25k difference. Is this an "insignificant" difference?

At this point ? Probably not enough for people to care / actually try hard.
If the difference between me mashing 2 buttons (macro + SotR) and having max survivability and actually having a sort of priority system + pressing extra 4 or so buttons for the same dmg intake but a whole 25k dps i don't think a lot of people would even bother pushing dps.

Let's say we cut vengeance contribution to damage in half (there are several ways to approximate this - and by this logic, top end tank DPS will decrease by roughly 50%). That's still a 25k difference. Is this an "insignificant" difference?

Ok, don't take this as an insult or anything, but might I ask for the clarification about what your current raiding mode is?

Because if you're someone who is in current content heroics, you should know what vengeance does.

On topic, I simply don't understand the hate towards vengeance. You're not going to lose your DPS spot over another tank. That's not how vengeance works 'rotating tanks' for max vengeance doesn't work, they will all have a crap stack of vengeance.

The issue isn't vengeance. The issue is solo tanking. Show me a raden where he is not being solotanked. Show me a horridon tank rank who didn't solo tank him. Show me an iron Qon rank without solotanking. These, and other fights are made with the intention of only half uptime of vengeance on any given tank on any given time. If you reduce a tank, your vengeance on the other tank will skyrocket, and you will also gain another DPS.

The vengeance cap is useless, the only boss until now that actually brings you higher than it is raden and animus zerg, nothing else.

Blizzard should just get rid of the extra vengeance from getting crit (I'm abusing this too) and voidzones (same, I abuse it too); why shouldn't you use the tools you've got to work with. Bit really, as far as I've seen they're going to do just that. So far in DoO there are many mechanics that award you no vengeance at all, and they're working on debuffs that can't be removed by HoPs. Those two changes will go a long way to reduce tank damage.

And still, as a tank that's been tanking and raiding since vanilla, MoP made me fell in love even more with tanking, active mitigation was the best thing ever, and working around vengeance is even more fun. (Unless it's the blatantly OP voidzone/sit thing).

Ok, don't take this as an insult or anything, but might I ask for the clarification about what your current raiding mode is?

Because if you're someone who is in current content heroics, you should know what vengeance does.

I'm well aware of what vengeance does, are you?

Enlighten me as to the problem you have with my post's logic rather than trying ask me a completely irrelevant question, please.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 05:00 AM ----------

Originally Posted by celinamuna

At this point ? Probably not enough for people to care / actually try hard.... but a whole 25k dps i don't think a lot of people would even bother pushing dps.

Let me put it this way, I'll ask two questions:

About at what difference (roughly) would you begin to prefer to take a DPS over another? (so for instance, 2 DPS that are 10k apart is probably not a large difference to confidently say 1 is better than another).

What about for tanks? (Again, these numbers don't have to be exact, just ballpark as to what order of magnitude we're looking at).

About at what difference (roughly) would you begin to prefer to take a DPS over another? (so for instance, 2 DPS that are 10k apart is probably not a large difference to confidently say 1 is better than another).

What about for tanks? (Again, these numbers don't have to be exact, just ballpark as to what order of magnitude we're looking at).

This is why warriors are being buffed so heavily for 5.4; their damage wasn't in the same stratosphere as similarly geared paladins and monks, which means if you're going to argue that "bosses are tuned around tank damage" you'd better make sure they're balanced properly.

On topic, I simply don't understand the hate towards vengeance. You're not going to lose your DPS spot over another tank. That's not how vengeance works 'rotating tanks' for max vengeance doesn't work, they will all have a crap stack of vengeance.

The issue isn't vengeance. The issue is solo tanking. Show me a raden where he is not being solotanked. Show me a horridon tank rank who didn't solo tank him. Show me an iron Qon rank without solotanking. These, and other fights are made with the intention of only half uptime of vengeance on any given tank on any given time. If you reduce a tank, your vengeance on the other tank will skyrocket, and you will also gain another DPS.

The vengeance cap is useless, the only boss until now that actually brings you higher than it is raden and animus zerg, nothing else.

Blizzard should just get rid of the extra vengeance from getting crit (I'm abusing this too) and voidzones (same, I abuse it too); why shouldn't you use the tools you've got to work with. Bit really, as far as I've seen they're going to do just that. So far in DoO there are many mechanics that award you no vengeance at all, and they're working on debuffs that can't be removed by HoPs. Those two changes will go a long way to reduce tank damage.

And still, as a tank that's been tanking and raiding since vanilla, MoP made me fell in love even more with tanking, active mitigation was the best thing ever, and working around vengeance is even more fun. (Unless it's the blatantly OP voidzone/sit thing).

You've said it far better than I could.

I've seen a few people in this thread saying to nerf veng and bring back threat as a real mechanic, anyone that thinks that could be in anyway fun for more than a fraction of tanks that happen to be at just the correct gear level relative to the dps, don't have a clue how threat works.

"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

What would some of you who are vehemently defending think of this idea for the next expansion?

Set all active mitigation cooldowns that scale with AP to instead scale with Stam or Str. (Encounters would of course be balanced around NOT having an enormous Word of Glory to throw on yourself all the time)

Change Vengeance to, when you take damage, increase your threat for 10 seconds by one half of the percent of damage you took. It would stack with itself. (Example - you have 100k health and get hit for 30k. You gain a stacking 15% threat boost for 10 seconds. You get some good avoidance and get hit 6 seconds later for 10k. You gain an additional 5% threat, 20% total bonus threat, for next 4 seconds until the 15% fades, leaving you with 5% bonus threat for an additional 6 seconds, or until you take another hit. It sounds a little confusing when I write it out like that, but it makes sense in my head...)

Make threat matter again. With the lower damage, losing aggro to a DPS may actually happen. *gasp horror gasp* Separate the good tanks from the bad with threat. Good tanks know when to use their best threat abilities while having a high vengeance percent. Bad tanks struggle to keep aggro against competitive DPS.

Make active mitigation matter more. With the removal of AP from Vengeance, tanks would have no real reason to want to get hit, giving active mitigation a more important role.

Lastly, throw in some more engaging tanking mechanics other than "Drag boss here at such and such time," or "Tank swap at four stack of X debuff."

These are just some ideas I came up with on the fly (the vengeance / threat is iffy), but what do the staunch defenders of Tanks doing DPS level DPS think of this? It seems most of the Vengeance supporters like doing good damage. They think that the fun part of being a tank is doing good damage. What if the fun part was actually about keeping threat and staying alive, you know...the things a tank is supposed to do?

This sums it up. Worst. Ideas. Ever.

Would be a pain to scale def abilities with stamina.
Tanks shouldnt do less dps by default. A good tank should still be able to beat an average dps..
Why change something that isnt broken, move threat boost to vengance ??
Threat is a horrible boring mechanic and i remember when it did matter, no ty.
You cant give AM a more important role lol, you play dps ?
Sure, give more fun tank encounters, im all for it.

Tanking has never been about threat and stayin alive, its the foundation but extremely little part of it, focus tanking into that and most tank will quit once again (hi cata queues)

This is why warriors are being buffed so heavily for 5.4; their damage wasn't in the same stratosphere as similarly geared paladins and monks, which means if you're going to argue that "bosses are tuned around tank damage" you'd better make sure they're balanced properly.

Until now, they haven't been.

Right, and I don't think anyone can deny that is a complete utter patchwork fix that has no real good mechanics, basically just to tide things over until 6.0 can come out. Because the balance, not just in damage but in survival, is really really off right now.

Expanding on why attempting to make threat challenging is a terrible idea.

Tank A is well geared and is raiding with average geared dps and a hunter + rogue

Tank B is under geared and raiding with well geared dps non of which are hunters/rogues

If you make it challenging for tank A to hold aggro you make it impossible for tank B to keep it without the dps throttling there dmg.
Conversely if you balance threat around it been challenging for tank B it becomes faceroll boring for tank A

And that's without even bringing skill into it which would just magnify the problem, raids with inexperienced tanks are already handicapped and reducing the amount of dmg there dps players can do due to threat won't be fun for anyone.

"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

I literally had to rub my eyes and read that again. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume it's not what you meant to say.

Originally Posted by voidspark

Right, and I don't think anyone can deny that is a complete utter patchwork fix that has no real good mechanics, basically just to tide things over until 6.0 can come out. Because the balance, not just in damage but in survival, is really really off right now.

It depends on how you look at it, I think. Warriors, for example, are great 25-man tanks because their mitigation is extremely good and they'll always have a dedicated healer. The additional Vengeance their damage relies on is also in more plentiful supply. On 10-man, they're completely eclipsed by paladins, monks and DK's because their abysmal self-healing makes them a liability if a group wants to drop to two healers, and their damage is comparatively terrible.

It depends on how you look at it, I think. Warriors, for example, are great 25-man tanks because their mitigation is extremely good and they'll always have a dedicated healer.

Right, I think Blizzard is balancing this in 5.4 (and has done some adjustments), but even in 25m there's many reasons warriors are just plain behind. DPS, raid healing. Tank mitigation is relatively more balanced in 25m, but in 10m other tank specs pretty much do not need a dedicated healer and some even serve as a raid healer themselves.

Overall though, I do think it's not completely bad. At the very least, for a role as important as it is, all tanks are capable of tanking all of the end-tier heroic content in guilds that clear at a fairly reasonable rate.

Gonna take a wild guess here and say the difference is which is better at taking hits and in general, you know, tanking things well. lol

I think maybe you should play a tank class for about a week. Maybe you'll realize that mitigation and avoidance on pretty much every tank is the easiest part of the whole encounter. It's pretty hard to screw up your active mitigation unless you're a new BrM monk or something. Damage is something that provides a challenge and differentiates a good tank from a bad tank.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 04:36 AM ----------

Originally Posted by shise

The problem with tanks (Blood dk mostly) on top of the DPS metter is that... what the hell shall we play a DPS if we can just go as tank and do two jobs at the same time? And for that matter, even 3 as some heal like mad.

DPS= DPS

Tank= tank

Healer=heal.

That's what we all started playing for and that shouldn't change.

Lol. Please tell everyone in your raid to reroll tank instead of DPS, put them all in a raid, and tell me what kind of numbers they pull.

Oh that's right they'll all pull around 50-60k, because vengeance only applies to people taking large amounts of damage. Stacking 25 brewmasters isnt suddenly going to give you 25 people pulling 300k dps. Please understand how a mechanic works before posting crap like this.

I think maybe you should play a tank class for about a week. Maybe you'll realize that mitigation and avoidance on pretty much every tank is the easiest part of the whole encounter. It's pretty hard to screw up your active mitigation unless you're a new BrM monk or something. Damage is something that provides a challenge and differentiates a good tank from a bad tank.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 04:36 AM ----------

Lol. Please tell everyone in your raid to reroll tank instead of DPS, put them all in a raid, and tell me what kind of numbers they pull.

Oh that's right they'll all pull around 50-60k, because vengeance only applies to people taking large amounts of damage. Stacking 25 brewmasters isnt suddenly going to give you 25 people pulling 300k dps. Please understand how a mechanic works before posting crap like this.

It's understandable. Some DPS players can't see over their recount meter, as it takes up most of their screen. They wouldn't know about the mechanics of other roles.

I think maybe you should play a tank class for about a week. Maybe you'll realize that mitigation and avoidance on pretty much every tank is the easiest part of the whole encounter. It's pretty hard to screw up your active mitigation unless you're a new BrM monk or something. Damage is something that provides a challenge and differentiates a good tank from a bad tank.

I'd disagree that the AM part of tanking is trivial.
On Horridon, Tortos, Jikun, Durumu and RaDen it's pretty damn important you get it right at least as a prot pally, not saying it's massively hard just reasonably challenging while doing everything else that's needed.

I definitely agree that tanks doing competitive dps is fun and important though, because if we only needed to worry about our AM our rotations would become much less engaging.

"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett

Right, I think Blizzard is balancing this in 5.4 (and has done some adjustments), but even in 25m there's many reasons warriors are just plain behind. DPS, raid healing. Tank mitigation is relatively more balanced in 25m, but in 10m other tank specs pretty much do not need a dedicated healer and some even serve as a raid healer themselves.

Overall though, I do think it's not completely bad. At the very least, for a role as important as it is, all tanks are capable of tanking all of the end-tier heroic content in guilds that clear at a fairly reasonable rate.

No, I don't mean to be implying that I disagree (in fact, I find myself nodding to most of your posts); and I think that, in general, all tanks are tanking the content. There are, however, a terrible dearth of warriors in 10-man progression, and there really has to be a reason for that.

Originally Posted by Saiyoran

Damage is something that provides a challenge and differentiates a good tank from a bad tank.

See, I dislike generalisations like this because they don't really do the subject justice. I know you're only really saying that equally geared tanks doing roughly the same thing will see the skilled player doing more damage, but this expansion has seen an awful lot of bad behaviour going on; tanks taunting off needlessly for more damage, scumbagging, and different roles in an encounter (or the way a group deals with it) can all contribute.

I, for example, am ranked multiple times despite being very defence-centric and I never scumbag. Ever. I don't even /sit. I'm pretty good is what I'm trying to say. Yet, my Tortos parses all look dreadful because of the way my guild did it - namely, I took the bats but we stop killing them after two thirds of the fight while I just kite them around.

Again, I know you're not saying "good tanks do good damage rofl", I just want to make it clear that you cannot always apply that rationale.

I'd disagree that the AM part of tanking is trivial.
On Horridon, Tortos, Jikun, Durumu and RaDen it's pretty damn important you get it right at least as a prot pally, not saying it's massively hard just reasonably challenging while doing everything else that's needed.

I definitely agree that tanks doing competitive dps is fun and important though, because if we only needed to worry about our AM our rotations would become much less engaging.

The fights that give tanks the highest DPS reward (read: high vengeance) are also the hardest when it comes to active mitigation and staggering tank CD's. (Minus the /sit and void zones which are being removed in 5.4 anyway).

For the most part, I'd say this isn't bad in principle. Nor is vengeance the absolute worst thing in principle, though I still think there should be a reachable cap with Stamina becoming a DPS stat. But when it comes to actual numbers, I don't think Blizzard thought the mechanic through.

---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:45 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Zellviren

tanks taunting off needlessly for more damage, scumbagging...

I understand that it's engaging to have tanks do more DPS while actually tanking, but that's another point that I think we often forget. When you have fights that are meant to be 2 tanked in stuff like LFR, it just encourages a more geared, better, or even just more impatient tank to pull and tank everything and do lots of DPS.

Meanwhile the other tank has 0 vengeance, can't actually be able to hold anything (because even after taunting, with a 200% threat modifier, that avenger's shield is going to instantaneously yank the mob right back from that poor no-DPS-stat warrior). Then you have tanks that chain-taunt on purpose to have more adds for more vengeance.

Obviously this is good for the group, but as for the other tank... well, when one tank is having fun, usually no one else is.

Overscaled vengeance, in all honesty, encourages pretty bad behavior in pug/LFR groups. I can say I wouldn't be so eager to disregard my group if I wasn't basically doing more than double the damage of the DPS and if pulling more mobs than intended resulted in un-healable (for average LFR-geared healers, anyway) damage.