I always thought they were too north for the SEC. Big 10 could use a bball addition to Michigan (one of the rare football & basketball powers) and Indiana.

And we've already established that parts of Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois are considered "southern" in culture, as well as Louisville being the "southernmost northern city". Kentucky is intertwined with the north almost as much as it is the south. And Lexington is pretty far north in the state. I always thought of Kentucky as a crossroads state moreso than really belonging to a specific region. West Va. and Va. are that way as well.

If you look at the map of where Lexington is, it's totally isolated in the SEC region. It's pretty level in latitude with Louisville and St. Louis. True it represents a state close to the heart of the region, but the school is pretty far away.

Now put it with Big Ten. Columbus and Bloomington are very close. Champaign and West Lafayette are not too far either. Even the Michigan cities are reasonable distance. The biggest stretch is Minnesota, which is far from most eastern Big 10 schools. But Gainesville and Baton Rouge aren't exactly neighbors to them either.

I'm not going to do this, but if one were to average the distances between U of Kentucky and Big 10 schools, and compare it to the distance average of SEC schools, the Big 10 would likely be lower.

Good topical point. However, in any conference, there will be schools at the outer limits; be it Northern Illinois in the MAC, UTEP in C-USA, South Florida in the NBE, BC in the ACC, TCU in the MWC, or for that matter, Penn State in the Big 10 (sure, PA borders Ohio), and Colorado in the Big 12.

Take the SEC. Look where Fayetteville, Arkansas is located. Arkansas borders, Tennessee and Mississippi to its east, and Louisiana to its south. But the school is in the northwest corner of the state. Certainly, many could argue they should be in the Big 12, playing neighbors such as Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Missouri, and their old Southwest Conference rivals Texas and Texas A&M.
Certainly Florida schools, by geography, will not be centralized conference members. In Florida, the SEC has 1, the ACC 2, the NBE 1, C-USA 1, and the revised SunBelt 2.
South Carolina is another SEC member that is on the outer limits of the conference. However, they have always played Georgia, and Tennessee and Florida are reasonably close. Of course Clemson, GT, and the four NC ACC schools are close also. But South Carolina, a charter ACC member, left the ACC decades ago. They will not switch from the SEC for another ACC invite. The SEC has a "Carolinas" footprint, and I doubt they would want to relinquish it now. When the SEC last expanded, markets, TV sets, etc. were important, but not talked about as much as it is today; and the $$$ factor has grown.
Kentucky is one of those schools that will not be central. Schools such as the ACC's North Carolina four; and the SEC's Auburn, Alabama, and Mississippi State, are going have the advantages of being central; at least in terms of travel compared to some of their brethern. However, being central can have its difficulty. For example, look at who Mississippi State has to recruit against: Alabama is almost just across the border, Ole Miss is close, Memphis is close, Tennesee to the north, LSU to the south; then there are Auburn and Southern Miss. Mississippi is a pretty rural state.

<<South Carolina is another SEC member that is on the outer limits of the conference. However, they have always played Georgia, and Tennessee and Florida are reasonably close. >>

Are you sure you aren't confusing Clemson with South Carolina? Georgia has had a very heated rivalry with Clemson (which is closer to Athens than any school but GT), but I don't remember a lot of South Carolina games prior to the SEC expansion. Did UGA play both frequently prior to the 90s?

Clemson is indeed close to Athens and used to play Georgia more frequently. South Carolina is further away in miles, but conference wise, within reason. Georgia used to play Clemson and South Carolina both.
As far as I can remember, but I don't have the records before me, Georgia has been a regular on South Carolina's schedule. This included when South Carolina was in the ACC. South Carolina does not win in fb very often against Georgia, but they always have played for decades back, and as long as I remember.

When the SEC expanded, it did curtail Georgia scheduling Clemson as frequently, though they have played in some recent years. That is a rivalry that is missed. But Georgia has a lot of intense rivals.

When SC withdrew from the ACC, all the ACC teams (except Clemson) pretty much stopped playing SC in bb.
However, with the exception of Wake Forest and Maryland, SC continued playing other ACC teams in fb, though not all every year. Ironically, it was the scholarship, SAT criteria of the ACC, at the time, as it relates to football that was an issue. Then, South Carolina bb was a major power. Leaving the ACC, not long afterwards, hurt SC in bb.

South Carolina lost some natural and intense rivalries. NC State was a big one. UNC should be a natural. But separate conferences, limited OOC games, etc. has changed all that.

South Carolina played Georgia Tech regularly while both were independent.

With regard to Georgia Tech and Clemson, Bobby Dodd and Frank Howard once had this crazy deal whereby all their games for a huge stretch of time (including the 60s, maybe early 70s) were played in Atlanta. Guess who had the big advantage there?

With regard to Georgia Tech and Clemson, Bobby Dodd and Frank Howard once had this crazy deal whereby all their games for a huge stretch of time (including the 60s, maybe early 70s) were played in Atlanta. Guess who had the big advantage there?

That's not all that surprising. Pitt and Penn State used to play all their games in Pittsburgh. The stadium in Pittsburgh was much bigger than the one at PSU at the time. It also helped with recruiting.

This is also one of the reasons that some PSU fans are clammoring for a 2 for 1 deal with Pitt (if Pitt ever makes it back on the schedule) to make the series 'even' in terms of home games.

Things do change. Clemson now draws much better than GT. And in the 50s for almost 10 years, Texas A&M played all their games with Rice in Houston at Rice Stadium. Now A&M won't play Rice and Texas plays Rice most years 2 in Austin for 1 in Houston. The game draws 80k in Austin and 40-50k in Houston.

Syracuse and the B10.The private school thing is a problem with the B10.Syracuse is not up to a Northwestern academically.Also while Syracuse is an AAU school ,all B10 schools are clealy superior.The city of Syracuse is in bad economic shape,there is not a base to expand the carrier dome for 10's of millions.Iowa,Wisconsin,Minnesota,Illinois want a western school like Iowa State or Missouri,they do not want a travel partner for Pa St.

Syracuse and the B10.The private school thing is a problem with the B10.Syracuse is not up to a Northwestern academically.Also while Syracuse is an AAU school ,all B10 schools are clealy superior.The city of Syracuse is in bad economic shape,there is not a base to expand the carrier dome for 10's of millions.Iowa,Wisconsin,Minnesota,Illinois want a western school like Iowa State or Missouri,they do not want a travel partner for Pa St.

Syracuse doesn't have the academic reputation of Northwestern or Michigan, but its just a step down from those schools, and ahead of MSU, OSU, Indiana. Missouri doesn't have the academic reputation of Syracuse. The city may be in bad economic shape, but Syracuse University makes up for it with its ties to the East Coast.

How you split is why I thought (and the Big 10 did in the mid 90s) a western team like Missouri made sense. However, when ND looked like they were going to accept I saw a post on a Big 10 board from someone who appeared to know what he was talking about saying it would be a north/south split:
North
Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota (3 big rivals), Michigan, Michigan St., Ohio St. (3 more big rivals)
South
Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Northwestern, Penn St., Notre Dame.

this is my preferred allignment as well, and rivalry saturday would work best with this allignment, with the possible exception of Michigan State having to schedule probably Iowa for rivalry Saturday (but then both ARE the most "aggie-oriented" schools in the B10, lol...

8-)

ps..., for those sensitive to such things, Kentucky is culturally a southern state. Heck even the southern counties of Illinois and Indiana have a discernable southern accent. MidWest really stops at the Ohio River culturally... Also, BigTen already has northern Kentucky media market, why would it need the small size of the Lexington market....

Last edited by javaman on Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thanks for your exhaustive knowledge of this topic, Metropiltan! Very interesting.

I guess I had this impression from the number of Iowa people I know and talk to (I am in a church that seems to have a lot of Iowa transplants, and historically in my area, Iowa and MSU were always the second choices of people applying to BigTen University grad programs).

One of my classmates from college days however got his law degree from Iowa (as a second choice--he was not admitted to Michigan), and is now a very very high-powered attorney in Houston, very successful. So the law degree from Iowa is indeed a very potent one.

Well, someone is not going to have the ideal rivalry on rivalry Saturday it seems under any BigTen scenario.
Based on the info you provide, perhaps MSU should play Wisconsin on rivalry Saturday, and Minnesota could play Iowa?

Last edited by javaman on Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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