Nothing to get for all your efforts is what stops people from either continuing, hence exodus of competitive guilds from game, or starting: newer groups think 'why bother?' when they have nothing to show for their troubles. Newer players think 'why would I get farmed for 15 minutes when we could queue PuG sc, or PvE, or afk in forts?'. Effort vs reward is skewed hugely across the game.

Sure, the fights can be fun, and it's great to just enjoy the PvP - but with no tangible rewards/ranking system to show for it, you eventually get bored of twiddling your thumbs when you could be doing anything else and getting rewarded exponentially more.

Why not simply copy WoW arenas? Have custom titles, gear and/or items locked behind scenarios only. X amount of wins in a scenario will give you access to something that will make you want to grind it out. Normal scenarios could have a normal currency, ranked could have ranked, all would be contributing towards cool things that would make you want to devote more than 20 minutes a day to scenarios, while not mandating that you do them.

So the only thing that stops 6v6 players to play their ranked scenario is the flag in Caledor Woods?

I guess, yes. Some 6mans tend to cap flag fast (on some maps spawn distance to objective is unequal) and then the fight happens at flag and if both teams are similar, then the side with flag wins.
No flag makes fighting without excuses inevitable.

Apart from all the derailing here I'd like to at least leave some comments to the (imho) valid points stated here, namely the creation of a separated environment (be it arena or premade SC without any flag mechanics) and its incentives and rewards.

While my PoV is like 75% PuG, several organized stuff and 1 single 6v6 tournament (sadly, enjoyed it and the training for it a lot) I experienced both being stomped by premades in SCs when solo/duo and vice versa.

For all those who really think it's the systems' problem having organized groups playing against soloers: Wouldn't it be a win-win situation if all those that you see as so bad played in their own environment?
I guess it would, but it's not that easy, foremost because of the population, and apart from that because premade doesn't equal premande necessarily.

From what I hear the few (2?) left 6v6 guilds have problems finding proper playgrounds.
Inbetween are some guild-independent 6-mans roaming and queing from time to time, meeting each other or not.
And let's assume there are those bad elitist that love to stomp PuGs.
(I hope I don't have to set sarcasm tags.)

At least the creation/adjustment of an (rotating) SC for premades is already there, just need to completely remove all flags and guards and the premades looking for competitive play would be good, correct me if I'm wrong.
Why not give them rewards? Well, there may the a few that play for the sake of having real competition, but no rewards at all are not fair if you ask me.
Better rewards, hmm... I would disagree because once more rewards would be locked behind content the majority doesn't want to do.
Same rewards like usual SCs, simple as that, for kills, winning, quest - what's wrong with that?

Give it try.
Two things can happen: Either it attracts more people that are looking for competitive stuff (and I only have to look in our guild and can name some ppl that will be happy about it), or there are really so many bad elitist that will rather keep farming PuGs and nothing will change, but worse than now it can't get (balance- and whine-wise).

2c

We need more ppl into 6v6 scene and not only the usual 2/3 elite premades.
It could be awesome if more ppl would make a premade, starting to play together, improve their own play style and grp sunergies, lots of players will do 6v6 at the same level of skills.

Agreed. Now I'm not representative for the 6v6 scene, but the people I play with gather one day per week (Friday EU evening) and try to get a proper 6-man together, meanwhile queing all or most SCs and when having a group with a proper composition queing also or only for the premade SC.

But for making it happen ppl should take some incentive for join/making premade and go for 6v6, that’s why in my locked post I asked some “ rewards “ for whom wanna partecipate in a pvp way different then wb bs wb, keep siege or fort.

That's what I'm wondering, do the people looking for an appropriate environment even need an incentive in form of rewards? I don't think so, at least not all of them. We don't.
On the other hand there may be some that simply think: "Same rewards for fighting a group that may beat us? Go away!"

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. (Mark Twain)

So the only thing that stops 6v6 players to play their ranked scenario is the flag in Caledor Woods?

I only queu solo and only for PUG scenarios. I like them, so I don't need a reward BiS to play them. In all honesty not even a reward at all. I can't understand what is the point of measure fun in gear and currency, and that is above myself in this thread. I actually think that you enjoy the scenarios and get gear somewhere else like doing an Epic Quest, locking a zone, or a dungeon wing, but that's just me. I would like to have cosmetics in scenario rewards, even in normal ones. And I would still play them even if you only give me half the renown.

I can't also understand why they want a separate scenario pool. In my eyes we are, as PUGs, the ones being segregated into having only 1 scenario to choose from. Cause of the reasons that have been listed previously. Been spawn camped ignoring the scenario objectives to make the rolfstomp longer, instead of shorter if that is not what they want, was not a rare situation when I completely gave up in joining to all scenarios. It's not about killing, cause we as PUG simply stay inside doing nothing till the pain fades away, it's about rolfstomp.

Hope this clarify my point of view, and which points I share with the current situation, and I feel that is general enough to justify the huge drop in scenario pop.

In a completely side note: Maybe increase the pool to 2-3 of the scenarios for PUGs so the scenario queu is no longer empty cause of rolfstomps? Cause is also kind of boring to play over and over the same scenario for weeks, and even people that love scenarios like me get bored.

In an mmo, every aspect in a game should have progression attached to it.

If you're doing something and getting nothing in reward - then you can do that a couple times in week/month, but not more.

If you don't have a sense of progression for doing something for countless hours, even if it's fun, you won't be doing that.

-> that is happening with scenarios currently.

Do you think, that people are wasting 100+ hours in forts because they're "fun", or they're having "epic and engaging fights" out there?
No.
They do that, because they get free currency and 30k rr ticks either by topping the killblow charts, or by hiding behind a tree for an hour, whilst watching some Netflix.

Give people cool stuff in ranked scs territory, with well predesignated 1-2 maps, and you will see a lot more movement on the server, with new groups arising.

In an mmo, every aspect in a game should have progression attached to it.

If you're doing something and getting nothing in reward - then you can do that a couple times in week/month, but not more.

If you don't have a sense of progression for doing something for countless hours, even if it's fun, you won't be doing that.

-> that is happening with scenarios currently.

Do you think, that people are wasting 100+ hours in forts because they're "fun", or they're having "epic and engaging fights" out there?
No.
They do that, because they get free currency and 30k rr ticks either by topping the killblow charts, or by hiding behind a tree for an hour, whilst watching some Netflix.

Give people cool stuff in ranked scs territory, with well predesignated 1-2 maps, and you will see a lot more movement on the server, with new groups arising.

In an mmo, every aspect in a game should have progression attached to it.

If you're doing something and getting nothing in reward - then you can do that a couple times in week/month, but not more.

If you don't have a sense of progression for doing something for countless hours, even if it's fun, you won't be doing that.

-> that is happening with scenarios currently.

Do you think, that people are wasting 100+ hours in forts because they're "fun", or they're having "epic and engaging fights" out there?
No.
They do that, because they get free currency and 30k rr ticks either by topping the killblow charts, or by hiding behind a tree for an hour, whilst watching some Netflix.

Give people cool stuff in ranked scs territory, with well predesignated 1-2 maps, and you will see a lot more movement on the server, with new groups arising.

Well said. It really boils down to whether or not we want to encourage competitive PvP in a PvP game, and whether or not we want to encourage group play in an MMO.

We encourage grouping up for PvE, we encourage regular PvE with carrots. We encourage Fort play with Invader. Let's also encourage smallscale PvP, and make the game one that appeals to all - be they casual or tryhard - or let it deteriorate into carebear AFK simulator.

I'm sorry, but pug play in PvP (because RoR did it right for PvE, I am happy to say) has been tended to far too much, and one need only look back to how PvP used to be to see this. #IfUKnowUKnow

Nothing to get for all your efforts is what stops people from either continuing, hence exodus of competitive guilds from game, or starting: newer groups think 'why bother?' when they have nothing to show for their troubles. Newer players think 'why would I get farmed for 15 minutes when we could queue PuG sc, or PvE, or afk in forts?'. Effort vs reward is skewed hugely across the game.

Sure, the fights can be fun, and it's great to just enjoy the PvP - but with no tangible rewards/ranking system to show for it, you eventually get bored of twiddling your thumbs when you could be doing anything else and getting rewarded exponentially more.

Why not simply copy WoW arenas? Have custom titles, gear and/or items locked behind scenarios only. X amount of wins in a scenario will give you access to something that will make you want to grind it out. Normal scenarios could have a normal currency, ranked could have ranked, all would be contributing towards cool things that would make you want to devote more than 20 minutes a day to scenarios, while not mandating that you do them.

You keep referencing WoW but the major difference here vs there is the population. It won't work here. WoW has a much bigger pool of players to pull from and that is a big factor in not seeing the same teams over and over again.

This game On a good day you see what 900 players logged in maybe 1k. Half of that population is in the lakes. T1 usually has 80-100 or so players. So that leaves between 300-400 players left split between leveling up, doing pve, and SCs. But also we are two factions so you have to divide that by 2 so max you have now 150-200 players on each side doing all those activities. Now you want a seperate premade function with seperate rewards for the handfull of players that will actually partake in this? I just don't see how this will pan out for anyone.

The same crap will happen that happened on live servers with low populations. Once one premade is winning over and over in the que word gets around on the opposite realm and players stop queing for those.

You will get the same nonsense that goes on now when one side gets steam rolled. The side that gets wrecked stops trying we see this in both SCs and RVR. Giving pity medallions or what ever was suggested for this special premade SC will suffer the same fate of players AFking when losing. The SC pops are slow to begin with even if you are a high demand class so fragmenting the population even further will only hurt that even more. Added on top of that it takes a year of losing to get the rewards most will not even bother if one side has a premade that is dominating the scene. On live players used to do this all the time. City instances players would actively go in and out creating new instances just to avoid fighting equal opposition (until it was changed many months later).

What happens when there is only 1 premade queing and you get 0 pops? Because it will happen and I bet there will be a thread about how no one wants to premade and you can't get your rewards. And what happens during the really low population times when max there are 400 or less players on? What then?

This is not about eliteists or pugs or what ever angle one side or the other wants to put on it but about how we just don't have the population to support it. The more options you have the more fragmented the population gets on activities. Now that we have more pve dungeons to do we have even less players in lakes and SCs and as more stuff comes out in the future it will only make it worse.