I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss. Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy. As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond. I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox. In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith. I mean absolutely no disrespect towards my non-EO friends, but when everyone responds to EO issues, confusion can easily spread, making the replies difficult to discern.

Yes. I think it is only right for a non-Orthodox to identify his religious affiliation, as I have done all along for example. But as far as replying to questions having to do with the Orthodox faith, i think that the way this is framed is too general. Take for example a question on neo-atheism or secularism in western culture or women in the priesthood, or the H1N1 virus and Holy Communion. Now these can all be thought of as questions touching upon teachings and practices in the Orthodox Church, but I don't see why you would want to exclude non-Orthodox from the discussion, especially if they identify themselves as belonging to another Church? On the other hand, if you wanted to have a section of the forum, where non-Orthodox are locked out of the discussion, I suppose that this could be appropriate for a limited number of questions.

I was recently discussing this issue with a few friends and thought I would bring it up for all to discuss. Many times a question or subject will be brought up by an Orthodox Christian that pertains to Eastern Orthodoxy. As this is an open, public forum, many non-Orthodox will naturally feel inclined to respond. I certainly don't want to sound as if I'm advocating for censure, but many times, though the non-Orthodox poster may well be well intentioned, the responses are often not Orthodox. In order to help ensure clarity, I wonder if it would be possible to either A) have all members choose and state their religious affiliation so other posters can discern the validity of the responses or B) ask that all non-Orthodox refrain from replying to questions having to do with the Eastern Orthodox faith. I mean absolutely no disrespect towards my non-EO friends, but when everyone responds to EO issues, confusion can easily spread, making the replies difficult to discern.

Yes. I think it is only right for a non-Orthodox to identify his religious affiliation, as I have done all along for example. But as far as replying to questions having to do with the Orthodox faith, i think that the way this is framed is too general. Take for example a question on neo-atheism or secularism in western culture or women in the priesthood, or the H1N1 virus and Holy Communion. Now these can all be thought of as questions touching upon teachings and practices in the Orthodox Church, but I don't see why you would want to exclude non-Orthodox from the discussion, especially if they identify themselves as belonging to another Church? On the other hand, if you wanted to have a section of the forum, where non-Orthodox are locked out of the discussion, I suppose that this could be appropriate for a limited number of questions.

I think that this might be detrimental to the Orthodox who use this forum though. For example they may be discussing how a certain Orthodox teaching relates to a Catholic teaching and might have a misconception about the Catholic teaching. If this discussion is occurring in the "Orthodox Only" sub forum, the misconception will not be cleared up and the discussion they are having will be less fruitful.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Why, Papist? Last time I checked, this forum was supposed to be a primarily Orthodox forum, therefore, the discussion of Orthodoxy should be paramount. Non-Orthodox should not be excluded from membership, or for having their voice heard, but I agree with GabrieltheCelt that, to avoid confusion, specifying one's religious affiliation should be a requirement of membership. Is doing so such a great hardship or invasion of privacy?

Why, Papist? Last time I checked, this forum was supposed to be a primarily Orthodox forum, therefore, the discussion of Orthodoxy should be paramount. Non-Orthodox should not be excluded from membership, or for having their voice heard, but I agree with GabrieltheCelt that, to avoid confusion, specifying one's religious affiliation should be a requirement of membership. Is doing so such a great hardship or invasion of privacy?

So when discussing the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism you would rather be discussing a what could be a mistaken view of what Catholics believe than to have a Catholic chime in and say, "uh.. that's not actually what Catholics believe"?

« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 08:18:53 PM by Papist »

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

So when discussing the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism you would rather be discussing a what could be a mistaken view of what Catholics believe than to have a Catholic chime in and say, "uh.. that's not actually what Catholics believe"?

Isn't it always easier that way?

Isn't there a forum somewhere, where the non-EO's are only allowed to post in an Inquirer's Corner, or something? They're not allowed to post in any of the other sections, not even to correct a misconception about their faith? What am I thinking of? My memory is all shot. It's one of those forums that gets like two posts a week.

In any event, with a couple of notable and notorious exceptions, I've always welcomed non-OO's to post their thoughts in the threads in the OO section here, as long as they are respectful. I think the other OO's feel the same way. Life would be boring if everyone were an OO.

Why, Papist? Last time I checked, this forum was supposed to be a primarily Orthodox forum, therefore, the discussion of Orthodoxy should be paramount. Non-Orthodox should not be excluded from membership, or for having their voice heard, but I agree with GabrieltheCelt that, to avoid confusion, specifying one's religious affiliation should be a requirement of membership. Is doing so such a great hardship or invasion of privacy?

So when discussing the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism you would rather be discussing a what could be a mistaken view of what Catholics believe than to have a Catholic chime in and say, "uh.. that's not actually what Catholics believe"?

Friend (and I mean that BTW ), that's not what LBK was saying and it sure as heck ain't what I was saying. Take a deep breath and go back to the beginning.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Why, Papist? Last time I checked, this forum was supposed to be a primarily Orthodox forum, therefore, the discussion of Orthodoxy should be paramount. Non-Orthodox should not be excluded from membership, or for having their voice heard, but I agree with GabrieltheCelt that, to avoid confusion, specifying one's religious affiliation should be a requirement of membership. Is doing so such a great hardship or invasion of privacy?

So when discussing the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism you would rather be discussing a what could be a mistaken view of what Catholics believe than to have a Catholic chime in and say, "uh.. that's not actually what Catholics believe"?

Can't speak for others, Papist, but any comments I have made on this forum which go against what your church believes have been to show the Orthodox position which show the error of RC ways, such as my efforts on the "Supremacy of Peter" thread.

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone. I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions. At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with. Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak. As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind). If you want to know something about someone, simply ask. Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

That's because you've put little thought into the matter. Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers. Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

What confusion do you speak of? Our faith is clearly listed under our avatars. I really don't understand what the problem is. Furthermore, just because someone is EO doesn't mean what they say is in line with Church teaching.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

With respect, Handmaiden, many members here do not show their religious affiliation in their sidebar (whether that is Orthodox or otherwise), hence Gabriel's concern that it could lead to confusion when reading their posts.

In my time here, several members have changed their religious affiliation, from non-Orthodox to Orthodox, or vice-versa, often without this change being noted in their sidebar.

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone. I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions. At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with. Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak. As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind). If you want to know something about someone, simply ask. Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

That's because you've put little thought into the matter. Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers. Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

Contempt for you? If I have ever intimated that I have such feelings for you, please forgive me. I have no idea where you got such an idea that I have such strong feelings against you, let alone any real feelings against you at all. Please note that my comment was specifically directed towards your idea ("...such a requirement") and not you directly.

I would also note that it's practically neck and neck in regards to the poll.

I again reiterate that one need only ask another of his or her religious affiliation if one is curious.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 11:35:02 PM by Schultz »

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Once again, friends and brothers and sisters, I'm not trying to limit discussion nor am I 'picking' on anyone. I value everyone's right to express themselves, but on Eastern Orthodox matters, I don't want their views or opinions. At the very least, I want to know who is saying what.

Part of discourse is learning about who you are talking with. Not everyone wants to wear their badges on their sleeve, so to speak. As Fr. George pointed out, there are many, many views within the EO communion on any given topic (the iconography threads on here spring to mind). If you want to know something about someone, simply ask. Honestly, I see such a requirement as you're suggesting as incivility, at best, and sheer laziness, at worst.

That's because you've put little thought into the matter. Perhaps you should put your contempt for me aside, friend, and look at the poll numbers. Most folks agree that this could cut down on confusion.

Contempt for you? If I have ever intimated that I have such feelings for you, please forgive me. I have no idea where you got such an idea that I have such strong feelings against you, let alone any real feelings against you at all. Please note that my comment was specifically directed towards your idea ("...such a requirement") and not you directly.

With respect, Handmaiden, many members here do not show their religious affiliation in their sidebar (whether that is Orthodox or otherwise), hence Gabriel's concern that it could lead to confusion when reading their posts.

In my time here, several members have changed their religious affiliation, from non-Orthodox to Orthodox, or vice-versa, often without this change being noted in their sidebar.

And how would one stop this from happening? How can you FORCE someone to display their religious affiliation?

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Well see, different people are looking at the poll differently. When I look at the poll, I'm adding up the first and second options, and comparing it with the combined third and fourth options. This is because what really matters to me in this poll is how many people want me to butt out of issues having to do with the Orthodox Faith (however that is defined--that's a whole discussion by itself). So I see the numbers as being 27 to 8, with 8 wanting me to keep my trap shut on issues having to do with the Orthodox faith, and 27 people being fine with me chiming in so long as I identify my religious affiliation.

With respect, Handmaiden, many members here do not show their religious affiliation in their sidebar (whether that is Orthodox or otherwise), hence Gabriel's concern that it could lead to confusion when reading their posts.

In my time here, several members have changed their religious affiliation, from non-Orthodox to Orthodox, or vice-versa, often without this change being noted in their sidebar.

And how would one stop this from happening? How can you FORCE someone to display their religious affiliation?

Dear sister, there are many rules one must agree to when one registers for an account. Currently, listing one's religious affiliation is not a requirement, but the Administration has reserved the right for them to amend/add rules as they see fit (see 'catch all' under the 'rules' section.) This is your answer.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 01:50:35 AM by GabrieltheCelt »

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

With respect, Handmaiden, many members here do not show their religious affiliation in their sidebar (whether that is Orthodox or otherwise), hence Gabriel's concern that it could lead to confusion when reading their posts.

In my time here, several members have changed their religious affiliation, from non-Orthodox to Orthodox, or vice-versa, often without this change being noted in their sidebar.

And how would one stop this from happening? How can you FORCE someone to display their religious affiliation?

Dear sister, there are many rules one must agree to when one registers for an account. Currently, listing one's religious affiliation is not a requirement, but the Administration has reserved the right for them to amend/add rules as they see fit (see 'catch all' under the 'rules' section.) This is your answer.

I am in favor of listing your religious affiliation, but how would you check this out? For example, when at CAF there was an Eastern Christianity forum, I think that someone said he belonged to the Catholic Church. But when pressed on this, he said that it was the One, Holy, Apostolic, Orthodox Catholic Church, and by this he meant the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Although option #4 wasn't an option when I created the poll (I asked for it to be included after the fact), this is where I would include myself. I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well). As for 'checking' for validity, I think anyone being dishonest would eventually betray themselves and therefore be subject to receiving a "Warning" that may or may not lead to their being "Banned".

What is the mission of this forum? What is it's purpose, it's Raison d'être? Can anyone tell me please? Anyone can join, even militant atheists who openly mock Christ and His followers. Heck they're even allowed complete access to all of the forums. Why? I'm glad that anyone can participate, but it seems responsible to put certain restrictions on certain demographics. Perhaps now would be a great time for one of our esteemed administrators to emerge from the shadows and provide us with the mission and purpose of orthodoxchristianity.net and then provide us with answers as to whether or not that criteria is being met. If the mission and purpose is to provide Orthodox Christians a safe place to ask questions as well as inquirers to feel at ease to ask and learn about Eastern Orthodoxy, then, compared to monachos.net (who shares the same mission and purpose), the OC.Net has many opportunities for improvement. Some time back the administrators and a few moderators asked for input and opinions on how to improve the OC.Net- consider this whole thread my input.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Yes. You hit the nail right on the head. Unfortunately, I'm so sure that the OCnet measure's up.

I do appreciate your feedback on our forum and as you can see your comments are being considered. I want to always encourage people to let us know how we are doing and offer feedback.

I don't think our forum measures up either but the way I see it, no forum measures up for that matter given that human beings run forums and human beings participate in forums. It's impossible to satisfy everyone and we do our best to provide the most reasonable forum available, and from the feedback I have received over the past five years, even those who complain/comment about the site (which is fine, that's how we measure ourselves) will admit that this site does the best job of providing some sort of balance between a) reasonable free speech and discussion/debate and b) providing a safe haven for Orthodox to express themselves.

The problems I have always noticed are that if one tends towards option a then fundamental Orthodox concepts are challenged and that upsets some people seeking b; and if b is emphasized too much, no discussion occurs and the forum becomes pretty homogenous and boring.

My guiding principle when I set up this site with Robert and Philip was (and is), if the Orthodox Church is the true Church, our position will always win out in a free venue (which is what a "forum" is). Now, when we see someone being consistently anti-Orthodox or who does not seem to be here for discussion or fellowship but is rather a troll, we take action. The problem is, it's hard to establish who fits that category sometimes, especially without attributing motives to others (which is something I personally find extremely vexing when it is done to me and so I try to avoid doing it to others).

On a personal note, and in the vein of the above, I was slightly bothered at your insinuation that GisC's monetary donation (which was extremely modest in comparison to other donors and which occurred in 2005) was in some way responsible for his not being banned. No one owns me or any other member of our team.

I do agree with you that constant anti-Orthodox banter gets old and I don't like it when threads are hijacked repeatedly.

If you would like to help us make this site a better place, I am sure we can find an area for you to contribute. I for one am always looking for assistance in developing and editing content on the front page. We also need help in collecting photographs for posting. If you or anyone else is interested in improving the site, PM me.

Although option #4 wasn't an option when I created the poll (I asked for it to be included after the fact), this is where I would include myself. I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well).

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum. There may be questions that I can answer i.e.; how a certain Christian liturgical practice relates to a Jewish practice. Also, if non-EO's can't post in these forums, how can they ask questions?

I haven't voted in the poll because I don't know which answer best expresses my feelings here. I agree with Tallitot that non-EOs definitely have a place in many of our discussions. They often bring interesting perspectives that can shed light on what we do.

As for not posting in Converts, where then can inquirers ask questions along the lines of "What will happen when I become Orthodox?" "How do I deal with this issue that really bugs me about Orthodoxy?" Adding an "Inquirers Forum" might solve that of course, and limit discussion in Converts to the concerns of those who have actually converted to the Orthodox Church. But then, would we have to exclude cradle Orthodox from that forum ? (BTW, I really despise the cradle vs convert mindset that seems to be so prevalent in many places.)

We really need to avoid too much legalism about who can post where but when the non-EOs post in forums like Faith and Liturgy, it should be to clarify issues, not create debate. There are other forums for that purpose already. Many threads often seem more like debate amongst a handful of posters than a discussion to come to some sort of understanding in keeping with EO faith and practice.

I must say that I really enjoy my participation in OC dot net. I don't post often. I think I see it as an extended coffee hour. My own little mission as much as I truly love it and all who attend simply doesn't provide the same sort of outlet. Because we're scattered all over the Niagara Peninsula, we just don't get together often for this sort of chit-chat that often and should lead to deeper discussions.

Obviously I won't vote in the poll, but as for my opinion, I've always been up front with my religious affiliation, even when I would have been better off personally by not disclosing it.

Perhaps I missed a few things along the way, but until I saw this thread, I was not aware that you had again left the Orthodox Church. I have to confess that I don't always look closely at, or take too seriously, labels that people put near their avatar, unless they are very explicit. Your "panendeism" tag would be a case in point.

But didn't Anastasios answer these questions 2 1/2 years ago when there was a similar thread?

The question of moderating anti-Christian posters is a separate issue altogether; and it was briefly touched upon, though nothing was done about it. Concerning all members identifying their faith affiliation has, thus far, not been addressed.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:19:44 PM by GabrieltheCelt »

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.

I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy. If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO. It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.

I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy. If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO. It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.

Also, if non-EO's can't post in these forums, how can they ask questions?

There are other forums on the OC.Net for you to pose questions and participate in meaningful ways.

As a person who was baptized an Orthodox Christian as an infant (would you like me to scan my baptismal certificate to prove it?) I cannot disagree enough with your statements. I find this entire thread arrogant, rude, and dismissive of the knowledge that the non-EO members bring to the forum.

I for one would be disheartened and disgusted if the changes you are suggesting were implemented.

I've never been confused as to anyone's affiliation here, or where they stand.

Why this is so difficult for you, I have no idea.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

I can only repeat that many of the non-EO posters have studied liturgy and can contribute meaningfully to this forum.

I'm glad that you're here, Tallit, but respectfully, I do not want nor need a Jewish person's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy. If I ask a question re: the DL, I only want an answer from another EO. It's just bad form and very confusing to see non-EO's answering EO specific questions.

Also, if non-EO's can't post in these forums, how can they ask questions?

There are other forums on the OC.Net for you to pose questions and participate in meaningful ways.

As a person who was baptized an Orthodox Christian as an infant (would you like me to scan my baptismal certificate to prove it?) I cannot disagree enough with your statements. I find this entire thread arrogant, rude, and dismissive of the knowledge that the non-EO members bring to the forum.

I for one would be disheartened and disgusted if the changes you are suggesting were implemented.

I've never been confused as to anyone's affiliation here, or where they stand.

Why this is so difficult for you, I have no idea.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. And your snarky comments aside Maureen (are snarky comments rude, arrogant and dismissive in your circle of friends, Maureen?) there are many people who feel it an important issue. If it bothers you so much that there might be other opinions than your own, why do you return to this thread? There are 19 folks who tend to agree with you, but there are also 19 folks who tend to agree with me. Don't we deserve to be heard and answered?

« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:42:49 PM by GabrieltheCelt »

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well).

I'm afraid that you are under the misapprehension that this is specifically an Eastern Orthodox forum. That is not correct. This is simply an Orthodox forum, which does not take an explicit position on whether OO's, or EO's, or both, are Orthodox. The admins, moderators and posters may all have their own beliefs on the matter. However, there is not an official position taken by the board.

OCnet was founded six years ago by two Eastern Catholics (Fr. Anastasios and Robert) and an Oriental Orthodox (Mor Ephrem.) Over time, Mor Ephrem left and Fr. Anastasios and Robert converted to the EO Church. However, the above policy never changed. EO's and OO's are free to post everywhere on the board and to give their opinions equally, as long as they are polite.

If OCnet were to become an EO forum which just tolerated OO "guests," restricting what we could say, how we identified ourselves, or shoved us into some "Inquirer's Corner" ghetto, I have no doubt that OCnet would lose much, if not all, of its OO posters (including myself.) I've seen this happen to other Orthodox forums on the internet.

Of course I don't understand why the other forums felt the need to restrict the OO posters the way they have. I can only imagine that they were somehow threatened by what we have to say. As pointed out above, it can be nice to be able to mischaracterize the beliefs of others without fear of them being able to challenge you about it.

Fr. Anastasios is the sole owner of OCnet now, and I respect him tremendously for allowing such freedom of expression here. I know he is an Old Calendarist EO, and I have no illusions about what his opinion of my Church must be. However, he treats me and the other OO's here with much more courtesy than do many World Orthodox EO's whose patriarchs are on good terms with my catholicos. This, among other things, tells me that Fr. Anastasios is secure in his faith and is not at all threatened by what I or other OO's have to say, even though he doubtlessly disagrees with us. One wonders if the World Orthodox EO's who own the other sites have a faith in their Church as strong as Fr. Anastasios'. The restrictions they put on the OO's makes me believe they don't, but I could be wrong.

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, Gabriel. Can you give me an example of a thread about a specifically EO issue where the OO's have butted in and ruined things?

I and other OO's have stayed out of the many EP vs. MP threads where the EO's here viciously rip into each other's patriarchs. We've stayed out of the threads where the Antiochians have aired their Church's dirtly laundry. We made a point of staying out of this horrible thread about Christology, which had to be put into the private forum:

We could have gotten involved in that one. We could have come in and started playing a game of "Name That Heresy," and could have been very uncharitable toward the EO's participating there. However, we didn't. We chose, rather, to stay out of it and just watch in horror.

And now you want us to stay out of the Convert, Faith, and Liturgy sections. I guess I just want to know why. Is it that we don't have converts, faith, or liturgy? Is what we have to say about those topics completely outside of the Orthodox faith? I noticed that in a recent thread about homosexuality in the Faith section, you asked an Ethiopian poster to state his affiliation:

Was what he had to say there that offensive to our EO members? I'll bet that his opinion in that thread is more in line with traditional EO beliefs on the topic than the opinions expressed by some of our EO posters. Perhaps you think that homosexuality is a purely EO issue and that there are no gay OO's? (OK, my mother would probably tell you there are no gay Armenians, but believe me when I say they exist.)

I guess I just want an example of a thread on an exclusively EO issue where an OO came in and ruined things. If you could provide an example, I think that would help tremendously.

I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well).

I'm afraid that you are under the misapprehension that this is specifically an Eastern Orthodox forum. That is not correct.

Is this correct? OrthodoxChristianity.net is NOT and Eastern Orthodox forum? I'm not so sure you're understanding is correct and here's why I say this-

" Liturgy Discussion of the services of the Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox church, and for comparative purposes, the Roman Catholic liturgies."

Why provide distinction for the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church? I could be wrong, but I'd like to know if the OC.Net is or is not and Eastern Orthodox forum.

Was what he had to say there that offensive to our EO members? I'll bet that his opinion in that thread is more in line with traditional EO beliefs on the topic than the opinions expressed by some of our EO posters. Perhaps you think that homosexuality is a purely EO issue and that there are no gay OO's? (OK, my mother would probably tell you there are no gay Armenians, but believe me when I say they exist.)

I simply wanted to know their background. Easy peasy. And I also asked that they provide background to the links they listed, something the Mods do every time.

I guess I just want an example of a thread on an exclusively EO issue where an OO came in and ruined things. If you could provide an example, I think that would help tremendously.

Why are you assuming responsibility? I never said an OO ruined anything. I've already stated my reasoning for the concern; I refuse to do so over and over and over. Suffice it to say, though, you're taking things waaay too personal.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 10:43:02 PM by GabrieltheCelt »

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Even if I agreed with the apparent thrust of your initiative/poll, it's irrelevant to an internet forum. The administrators could make the 'religious affiliation' field mandatory--but all they can do is make someone fill it out; they can't make them do so honestly. Instituting a policy of required declaration wouldn't have any effect on posters like Papist, GiC, Tallitot, Asteriktos, etc who already completely open about their religious beliefs, and would just someone who started from dishonest motives commit harder to the deception.

That said, I don't see the point. Some of the most unorthodox statements I've seen on this board have come from people who are Orthodox. At what point, after restricting the non-Orthodox from giving answers on certain topics, do we start officially distinguishing between 'Orthodox who have some idea what they are talking about' from 'Orthodox without a clue' and restricting those 'without a clue' from confusing the issue with their unorthodox opinions? And who does the distinguishing? The owner of this board, with all due respect, is an Old Calendrist. To the best of my knowledge, he would be defined as a schismatic by the hierarchs of most EO posters on this board (and definitely so, of course by OO or RC posters). In turn the official position of his Church is that the most of us are schismatic if not outright heterodox (apologies to Fr. Anastasios if I've misstated, I simply don't know where in the range of existing Old Calendrist thought you personally fall).

The number of people who could post in this board would shrink very precipitously.

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great

Although option #4 wasn't an option when I created the poll (I asked for it to be included after the fact), this is where I would include myself. I would like to see all members' religious affiliation listed and kindly ask that all non-EO's refrain from posting in the first three sections of the moderated forums; Convert Issues, Faith Issues and Liturgy (I would like to see the Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics removed from Liturgy and relegated to their own sections (The OO's already have their own section and to be fair, the RC's should be given their own as well). As for 'checking' for validity, I think anyone being dishonest would eventually betray themselves and therefore be subject to receiving a "Warning" that may or may not lead to their being "Banned".

What is the mission of this forum? What is it's purpose, it's Raison d'être? Can anyone tell me please? Anyone can join, even militant atheists who openly mock Christ and His followers. Heck they're even allowed complete access to all of the forums. Why? I'm glad that anyone can participate, but it seems responsible to put certain restrictions on certain demographics. Perhaps now would be a great time for one of our esteemed administrators to emerge from the shadows and provide us with the mission and purpose of orthodoxchristianity.net and then provide us with answers as to whether or not that criteria is being met. If the mission and purpose is to provide Orthodox Christians a safe place to ask questions as well as inquirers to feel at ease to ask and learn about Eastern Orthodoxy, then, compared to monachos.net (who shares the same mission and purpose), the OC.Net has many opportunities for improvement. Some time back the administrators and a few moderators asked for input and opinions on how to improve the OC.Net- consider this whole thread my input.

So you feel non-EO "demographics" shouldn't post in -entire- sections and all their subcategories, and be "relegated"? With special ghetto threads for heretics and apostates, too - ? I really do "get" your frustration, but I don't see how simply listing one's religious membership is going to be reliable way to determine the trustworthiness of their responses. Maybe the junior members are sort of on probation anyway, and most of the old-timers sort of know each other. So anyway, I am EO in terms of membership, this is my classification... but what does this mean, if I also share that I have serious doubts about some Orthodox teachings? I just don't know far this disclosure can or should go. If non-EO can't post in the main sections I'd seriously reconsider belonging to the forum, myself. Not sure I'd be missed, ha-ha.I personally enjoy hearing the perspectives of people who view things differently.

Also, something that might be of some help is if we brought back the option that used to be in our profiles, where you could describe your religious affiliation/journey in some detail. I'm pretty sure that was on this forum before that you could do that in your profile.

Also, something that might be of some help is if we brought back the option that used to be in our profiles, where you could describe your religious affiliation/journey in some detail.

I like that idea. A small blurb (maybe similar in length to what is currently allowed for a signature) in your profile about your beliefs/history.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Gabriel, if you're talking about some kind of new forum policy, I'm not sure why you haven't taken this up privately with Fr. Chris (assuming you haven't) and feel it necessary to try to manipulate him by drumming up a groundswell of posters who all want what you want. If that's what you're doing, then I need to go on record as saying that I don't like your tactics. You have a medium for bringing up general concerns about how this forum is run, and that's the private messaging system. Please use it. (DISCLAIMER: I'm merely speaking my opinions as a member of this forum. I do not intend this advice to be understood as a moderatorial directive.)

Additionally, I have to agree with Schultz that if you really want to know what faith tradition a person represents, all you need to do is ask that person. I'm not going to apologize for saying that I think you're demanding too much of our posters by asking that everyone identify his/her faith tradition up front. I'm also not pleased with your idea that non-EO should refrain from posting altogether on the Convert Issues, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards. I can't speak for the other two boards, but I will speak for Faith Issues by saying that I already monitor non-Orthodox participation quite closely in my section to keep threads focused on discussion of matters pertinent to Orthodox Christian faith (both EO and OO, BTW), so I really don't understand what you're complaining about there. I deem it quite detrimental to discussions on my board, though, to discourage the non-Orthodox from posting there altogether. Papist is right that sometimes Catholics and Protestants and other non-Orthodox need to be allowed to clear up misconceptions that come up in our discussions. I'm not going to shut the door to that.

Overall, I find your requests selfish, demanding, and manipulative. I therefore suggest that you would do well to withdraw them and just adapt to things the way they are.

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 08:42:09 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

Thanks for the kindness, brother. You know, with a few exceptions, so far I've been labeled

And I wasn't even trying. Why, I bet I riled up more folks than GiC after 10 shots into a handle. Can't you just feel the love and charity flowin'? With the exception of hurting some folks' feelings, it's fine by me; usually when a small handful of folks become undone and unreasonably mad, you can bet you're doing something right. I guess the most telling thing about this is 1) people, regardless of who and what they are, will curse you for any reason so you may as well just stop trying to please every body and 2) people can work themselves up into a frenzy for just about anything. I declare, y'all! The least I asked was that, if you haven't already done so, it'd be a swell idea if you'd announce your faith affiliation as a courtesy for everyone else. If you're embarrassed or ashamed of your faith, then by all means: don't tell us. It ain't no big deal, I promise.

PS- Thanks for all those who sent the PM well-wishes!

« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 07:16:14 PM by GabrieltheCelt »

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet. It makes me sad that you don't like me still.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 07:13:53 PM by GabrieltheCelt »

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

Thanks for the kindness, brother. You know, with a few exceptions, so far I've been labeled

And I wasn't even trying. Why, I bet I riled up more folks than GiC after 10 shots into a handle. Can't you just feel the love and charity flowin'? With the exception of hurting some folks' feelings, it's fine by me; usually when a small handful of folks become undone and unreasonably mad, you can bet you're doing something right. I guess the most telling thing about this is 1) people, regardless of who and what they are, will curse you for any reason so you may as well just stop trying to please every body and 2) people can work themselves up into a frenzy for just about anything. I declare, y'all! The least I asked was that, if you haven't already done so, it'd be a swell idea if you'd announce your faith affiliation as a courtesy for everyone else. If you're embarrassed or ashamed of your faith, then by all means: don't tell us. It ain't no big deal, I promise.

PS- Thanks for all those who sent the PM well-wishes!

Once again, I did not label YOU as uncivil or lazy, but your argument. I thought WE cleared that up and "buried the hatchet", so to speak?

Apparently not.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

Thanks for the kindness, brother. You know, with a few exceptions, so far I've been labeled

And I wasn't even trying. Why, I bet I riled up more folks than GiC after 10 shots into a handle. Can't you just feel the love and charity flowin'? With the exception of hurting some folks' feelings, it's fine by me; usually when a small handful of folks become undone and unreasonably mad, you can bet you're doing something right. I guess the most telling thing about this is 1) people, regardless of who and what they are, will curse you for any reason so you may as well just stop trying to please every body and 2) people can work themselves up into a frenzy for just about anything. I declare, y'all! The least I asked was that, if you haven't already done so, it'd be a swell idea if you'd announce your faith affiliation as a courtesy for everyone else. If you're embarrassed or ashamed of your faith, then by all means: don't tell us. It ain't no big deal, I promise.

PS- Thanks for all those who sent the PM well-wishes!

But I've been able to keep folks riled up...even months later after a prolonged absence. You have yet to achieve that level of influence over people's sanity.

We all love each other...and you know it...even if you don't want to admit it!

There is something to be said for a person who is posting to identify their religious persuasion. That opportunity rests with the labels beneath/over their avatar/name.If folks would simply identify their "faith" in that spot, there would be no need for any other disclosure.

You guys are making it much more difficult than need be.

It's simple.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

Thanks for the kindness, brother. You know, with a few exceptions, so far I've been labeled

And I wasn't even trying. Why, I bet I riled up more folks than GiC after 10 shots into a handle. Can't you just feel the love and charity flowin'? With the exception of hurting some folks' feelings, it's fine by me; usually when a small handful of folks become undone and unreasonably mad, you can bet you're doing something right. I guess the most telling thing about this is 1) people, regardless of who and what they are, will curse you for any reason so you may as well just stop trying to please every body and 2) people can work themselves up into a frenzy for just about anything. I declare, y'all! The least I asked was that, if you haven't already done so, it'd be a swell idea if you'd announce your faith affiliation as a courtesy for everyone else. If you're embarrassed or ashamed of your faith, then by all means: don't tell us. It ain't no big deal, I promise.

PS- Thanks for all those who sent the PM well-wishes!

Once again, I did not label YOU as uncivil or lazy, but your argument. I thought WE cleared that up and "buried the hatchet", so to speak?

Apparently not.

Sorry Schultz, I meant to say, "So far I, or my thread, has been labeled...". Now we can be friends again. Maybe one day, if we're able to meet at one of these fabled OC.Net picnics, you and I can enjoy one your zymurology concoctions.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

It should be required to post one’s religious faith. Someone on this forum could be an infiltrate from The Raëlians Nudist Temple of The Holy of Face of L. Ron Hubbard. They could be covertly pushing Purification Rundown for today’s discounted price of only $50,000! That's right, only $50,000! And if you call before midnight tonight, you will receive a bonus: a second Purifs for free! Call 1-800-RLY-BOGUS now!

But wait! The next 100 callers will receive a free, miniature Purifs kit consisting of a bottle of Niacin tablets, an electric heating pad, and a extra-large Fleet enema. Don't wait! Call now!

I certainly don't mind non-EO replying to various topics... But I do think their affiliation needs to be clarified. There is an existing feature for religion/denomination/jurisdiction and I think it is something everyone should have to fill out. This way people will be less likely to read non-EO replies and think that they are EO positions.

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet. It makes me sad that you don't like me still.

Yeah, that hatchet remains buried and is not one of those past dealings I'm talking about here, so I wonder why you have to bring it up of all the possible incidents you could cite. (BTW, you're really not helping your cause by trotting out such unwelcome and disrespectful nicknames as "RePete". Such indecencies only serve to confirm those statements that you're being rude and dismissive.) I'm actually referring to all those times in the past that you've whined about something.

Also note that I've said nothing on this thread about whether I like you or not, so I wonder why you feel the need to assume that I have and take everything I've said so personally. The only thing I've criticized on this thread is your request that people identify their faith traditions (which they're already encouraged to do) and that non-EO not post on the Convert, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards (one of those being the board I moderate).

I really don't think GabrieltheCelt deserved that.Gabriel is asking some questions, and while I think some of them have been answered before (such as "is this an Eastern Orthodox forum?"), he may not be aware of the answers (that it is indeed not an Eastern Orthodox forum). I may not always agree with GabrieltheCelt's position on things (indeed, I disagree with his position on this issue as well), but I think he is a "straight-shooter" (as his current avatar suggests). I don't think he is being selfish, demanding or manipulative, rather he is talking directly from the heart and mind which is just his style, and which I personally find admirable in people. Some people (including I) would call that being "honest" rather than call it being "selfish, demanding, and manipulative".

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past.

Well hell, rePete, I thought we done buried that hatchet. It makes me sad that you don't like me still.

Yeah, that hatchet remains buried and is not one of those past dealings I'm talking about here, so I wonder why you have to bring it up of all the possible incidents you could cite. (BTW, you're really not helping your cause by trotting out such unwelcome and disrespectful nicknames as "RePete". Such indecencies only serve to confirm those statements that you're being rude and dismissive.) I'm actually referring to all those times in the past that you've whined about something.

Also note that I've said nothing on this thread about whether I like you or not, so I wonder why you feel the need to assume that I have and take everything I've said so personally. The only thing I've criticized on this thread is your request that people identify their faith traditions (which they're already encouraged to do) and that non-EO not post on the Convert, Faith Issues, and Liturgy boards (one of those being the board I moderate).

"...based on the dealings I've had with GabrieltheCelt in the past."

Based on the thousands of other posts where other people bring up their concerns, and since the moderators have extended the invitation to voice our concerns, well gosh PtA, I thought I could join y'all's party too. But when you say things like the above, you make me out to be some sort of troublemaker or agitator. I don't know about you, but these kinds of things don't sit well with me and when I feel like someone's knocking on my door, better believe I'm answering. So now it looks like we've got ourselves a choice, sport. We can just agree to disagree and move on or we can draw this out another couple of pages with meaningless back-and-forth. I know the Admins have seen this thread so if they think it's worth pursuing, I guess they'll pursue it.

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying