So, it’s time for a rant or two . . .

I rarely comment about reviews I receive for my books because reviews are generally one person’s opinion. I can take the bad reviews with the good, and while I don’t like to get a bad review, I just suck it up and repeat what Stephanie Laurens said at the Orange County Romance Writers meeting a couple years ago: “They’re just having a bad reading day.”

There are a few things that irritate me about reviews, however–good and bad. The first and foremost is spoilers. I’ve had good reviews where the reader obviously loved the book and wants to talk about it with everyone (I love people like that!) Except they get a little carried away and share a bit too much in a public forum. Or the bad reviews where the readers wants to prove what an idiot the author is by telling the world who the bad guy is and why it was “so obvious” from the beginning and listing every major turning point in the book. The only review I asked Amazon to remove was where the reviewer did this and more–not only identifying the killer, but also revealing that one of the main characters died at the midpoint of the book.

I’ve had more than one bad review, but a recent comment on Amazon related to ORIGINAL SIN had me scratching my head.

“This book seems to have taken bits and pieces from the show Supernatural and was made into a book.”

I had to think about that for a long time, because I am a fan of SUPERNATURAL–a huge fan. I’ve seen nearly every episode twice. I’m also a fan of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER and the old classics FRIDAY THE 13th THE SERIES and THE TWILIGHT ZONE.

I started OS in the summer of 2003, though I called it THE COVEN at the time. I knew the basic premise, the heroine (Moira), but had no idea who the hero would be, other than a tormented ex-seminarian. I didn’t know Rafe Cooper or his backstory or how my hero would come to the scene. I originally planned on having the hero be the brother of a missing girl (Lily) but it didn’t work out, and Lily didn’t stay missing for long in the final draft. I had over 100 pages drafted when I sold THE PREY and put this story idea on the back burner. SUPERNATURAL aired in September of 2005. I didn’t watch it until the DVD came out the following year, then I was addicted. My daughters originally discovered the series but I was on a tight deadline before the release of my first book.

I wrote the proposal for OS in early 2007 and gave it to my agent. She wanted to hold off a bit because we wanted to build me in romantic suspense first, and I agreed. The proposal outlined a seven book series (I use the term “outline” very loosely–the proposal was only three pages) and listed the main characters and the premise: the seven deadly sins released from Hell as incarnate demons. Believe me, when the Season Three opener of SUPERNATURAL aired in September of 2007 called “The Magnificent Seven” — yes, about the Seven Deadly Sins as demons — I nearly flipped. My daughters will tell you that I stomped around the room declaring that I had the idea first!

But as we all know, it’s not the idea but the execution that matters, and the episode was nothing like my idea.

Whenever we write, especially when we write stories that by necessity have a lot of research put into them, there are bound to be similarities between other works of creative art–unless it’s a completely made-up world not relying on human facts and theories.

I have dozens of books on criminal psychology, true crime, forensics, serial killers, weaponry, crime scene investigations, and the like. Dozens. I’ve read parts of all of them, and all of some of them. There are certain truths in criminal investigations that I use–and most other crime writers use as well to varying degrees. I like forensics and psychology, so I tend to write more detail about those subjects. Medical stuff? Not so much. In fact, most of my errors have been when I take my characters to the hospital, so I try to skip those parts now 🙂 No one has accused me of copying from CSI or CRIMINAL MINDS. And did anyone else notice the similarities between the CM episode “Outfoxed” as a compilation of both THE RED DRAGON (where Harris’s killer targets families who he gets to know through home movies his company develops) and SILENCE OF THE LAMBS (where Harris uses a convicted killer to help the FBI find the active killer–and both incarcerated murderers want to see the photographs of the victims.) Still a good episode. They made it their own with their own twists and motive for the killer.

So I was thinking, why SUPERNATURAL? Is it because it’s fantasy/supernatural/horror? That by definition it’s not real and thus I must have copied?

Truth be told, I have more books on witchcraft, religion, black magic, spells, exorcisms, and mythology than I do on crime and forensics. I immersed myself in these books for the year before I really started writing OS. I wanted to get a feeling of all the possible directions, but ultimately I gravitated toward books and ideas that supported my vision and my characters. I read more about the dark arts and exorcisms and speaking in tongues and Jewish fairy tales.

Would it surprise you that virtually every single episode of SUPERNATURAL has some written lore about it? When Sam talks about, “Lore says A,B,C” he’s taking that pretty much directly from the show’s research books. Funny thing–I have many of those same books! In the SUPERNATURAL companion guides they dissect each episode and talk about the lore that went behind it–Eric Kripke, the show’s creator, was adamant that there needed to be a grounding in the mythology, so wanted “proof” of a lore — which means research.

None of us came up with the idea that Holy Water was like poison to demons, or that salt protects against evil spirits, or that a devil’s trap (or spirit trap) can protect both a magician or trap a demon. Those ideas have been around for hundreds of years. Salt, in fact, as a protection pre-dates Christ. Every major world religion has a devil-like figure and theories related to demons or evil spirits. None of this is new, not to SUPERNATURAL or to me. There’s one SUPERNATURAL episode (the scarecrow) that is so much like an episode in FRIDAY about a scarecrow that I nearly laughed. But they were still different enough because in television, characters are the voice. They make the show unique, just like a writer’s writing voice plus characters make a book unique.

So the bad review didn’t bother me specifically because I wonder how well-read the commenter is on matters of the supernatural. Because if you read just a little, you quickly learn that it’s all been discussed before.

There have been a few things that have popped up in the show that have me banging my head because those concepts are in my books, but honestly? They no more took the ideas from me than I took the ideas from them. We all took them from the lore out there–and created our own stories from it. There are some things that, if you’re trying to stick with ideas that have been written about historically or theoretically, have become “facts” and when you’re writing a real-world paranormal story, you need to stick to the basic common understanding. No suspending the laws of physics — unless you find a good spell for it.

Rant Number Two . . .

Since this post has gone on a bit longer than I planned, Rant Two will be posted at Murderati on Sunday. It relates to the so-called NYT ethicist who stated that if you buy a hardcover book, while it’s illegal to download a pirated copy of the book, it’s not unethical. My response? If that’s the case, they he should go tell people that if they buy a ticket to a movie, they have every right to illegally download a pirated copy of the movie.

So my question to you: what are some other movies or books that explore very similar ideas–and what do you think about it? If we’re all drawing from the same pool of facts and mythology, what makes the final creative product unique? The author’s voice or director’s vision on screen? The characters? The tone? The rhythm? The little plot twists and turns? When do you get frustrated by similarities and when do they not bug out–or maybe, make the book even more enjoyable?

31 comments on “So, it’s time for a rant or two . . .”

Oh, please! (Not you, Allison, but these “readers”) I think people’s idea of “originality” is extremely overrated, and the general mind of people that a book is only good if they can’t “guess who the killer is” or because it’s original, really need to rethink their concept of good and original.

Movies, books, tv shows are always doing these same things, among themselves and each other. I’ll take Criminal Minds as you mentioned before. Heck, half of the episodes in that show are similar to some movie. There’s this one (great, by the way) episode, with a horror house, where people are tortured and need to complete “tasks” and repent their sins in order to survive. Saw, much?? Still, a great episode.

And shows among themselves? If you watch all three CSIs, NCIS, BONES, CASTLE and all these things, believe, they’re always doing “the same thing”. I can name at least three episodes of CASTLE and BONES with the same idea, and CASTLE is only in its second season. In fact, there’s this one idea, the one that people make a pact and kill for someone else, so they wouldn’t be connected to the victim, was explicitly mentioned on the show that it was just like a movie. (STRANGERS IN A TRAIN? I’m not sure the name). Basically, people meet, end up sharing they want someone dead, make a “You kill mine, I kill yours pact” and voilÃ¡, no connection to the victim. There’s also the one with people being murdered as in their books, both Brennan’s and Castle’s. And, of course, the ones with the guys with the double families. And each episode has been completely different, different views of the same basic outline, different focuses.

In NCIS, Dinozzo compares their cases to movies ALL the flippin’ time.

And, in the end, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who pulled the trigger and if you found out in the first two pages of the book. Recently, I was reading a book and I knew the killer in the first chapter. Many books, the killer’s explicitly shown, gaining their own lovely point of view. Not to mention I skip to the end of the books all the time. I simply don’t care about the outcome (unless it’s extremely depressing and everyone dies). It’s the way you tell the story, it’s that quirky funny line or the one who gives you the chills.

Besides, it’s all been done in the Bible anyway. There’s everything there 🙂

And, you said, “the reader obviously loved the book and wants to talk about it with everyone (I love people like that!)”

You’re absolutely right, Barbie. STRANGERS ON A TRAIN was originally a book by Patricia Highsmith, then a movie based on her book, and then the idea was used by many authors. Mariah Stewart, a fantastic writer, used the theme in her DEAD trilogy where three men in jail who had a chance meeting agreed to swap murders. The prologue of each of the books was the exact same scene from a different killer’s POV. Great stuff. One of the IN DEATH books by JD Robb uses this theme, with her own unique twists. Thanks for reminding me of that!

Oh, and L&O — they take stories “ripped from the headlines” and other people do the same thing.

You said it, Allison. Most paranormal is rooted in myth somewhere – so there are bound to be similarities. I’ve never watched Supernatural, but I’m betting OS is different enough that most people can tell you’re just using the same lore. By that commenter’s logic, all vampire novels are ripping off Bram Stoker. Feh.

Excellent point. Who wrote the first vampire hero? That was original, I don’t know that vampires have been portrayed as good guys before. Now? Hundreds. And people like the variety because they are mostly DIFFERENT.

I love talking about books. Isn’t it great when you have a friend and can talk about a book, make her tongue watering to get soo curious that she is reading it too and afterward you still can talk about it? I love that, discussing books. But yes, before the other one is reading it, you shouldn’t share too much informations. It’s boring when you get told how the story’s ending. Hate that. Then I really don’t need to read it, the surprising effect is gone.
Well, about similar tv series: Isn’t every vampire show the same? Like Buffy (and I like Buffy alot!), she was just there to knock out the bad guys plus Angel and Buffy wants to jump in bed together but what a sad thing it isn’t a good idea because then he is going to kill her. Twilight the same. Every vampire tv show is the same. But okay, in the story it’s all about romance isn’t it?
Women need romance and love beside crime and death (in tv or in a book), or? I do, just even a little it needs to be in a good book.
I love it when the heroine is strong and fighting for the right and the hero.
I think the guys who are making the show Criminal Minds or other shows don’t know what they could do different so they’re copying from others. It’s everywhere the same on tv and because of this I prefer to read books. When I’m watching tv, then it’s Disney Channel with my girls. God, I how I love watching Hannah Montana…. She’s funny and surprising me every time, no copy of another show. Or the Wizards of Waverly place. I like Disney Channel.
But more of course, I love reading your books, think you’re doing a great job with your research. My, that reminds me of that cute hottie at the morgue in Sacramento, how was his name? Phelan? My he was cute… See, that’s fun researching isn’t it? But I guess think to know how hard it is to write a book. And if any other stupid guy is typing at Amazon that you are copying the story from any tv show, just kiss his ass. You don’t need that. You are a great author!!

My morgue guy fictionally is Phineas Ward, but I did sort of take his basic looks from the real morgue guy Phelan. I was just so intrigued by him (there’s a picture of him in the RT magazine that has my picture as the cover–July 09, I think.) But if I ever write a book about Phineas Ward, his personality won’t be the same. Just the tattoo 🙂

I’d have to say that it only bugs me when it becomes transparent. If something strikes me as being just like something else, then I lose interest. I don’t mean particular elements of plot or character. I usually gloss that kind of thing over. Maybe as a writer I expect similarities to appear in things. Kind of hard to avoid really since you can’t be aware of everything out there within the story type you are writing. Some readers obviously expect genuinely unique stories each and every time. Not going to happen in my opinion. Ever. I think I’d have to challenge anyone to find a story that didn’t have some kind of similarity to another story somewhere at some point in time. We get our ideas from other stories. They don’t come out of thin air. We take a certain element from something and build it up with our own creative process. We hope someone else hasn’t taken a similar road. What else can you do but try to take the road less travelled as much as possible?

I used to gnash my teeth when I’d see similarities to my manuscripts in other books, especially when I knew I’d written mine without having read the others. But if there’s a good twist, I can enjoy books that are ‘the same but different’.

There’s only one author whose work seemed to be entirely lifted from another where I simply stopped reading her.

With the few paranormal I read, I think it’s good to see similarities in the ‘rules’ because it makes the world seem more real.

The thing that drives me craziest in movies is when they take a story (like Troy, for example) and then change it so much, the only thing it has in common with the original story is the characters names. I mean, if you are going to write a new story loosely based on characters someone else wrote about first, then do the right thing and make up your own names. Sheesh!

You’re so right! Especially when you’re dealing with a well known story that has certain facts that shouldn’t be changed. If you’re writing about Zeus, for example, you know who his wife and kids were–you might be able to write a hidden baby story, but you’d need to make sure you had that baby’s half-siblings right!

A worried writer friend recently told me about a book she had outlined, which shared a few key plot details with a new release. In talking it through we came to the same conclusion you describe, above…that the points of intersection between the book would be superficial, and what would distinguish them would be the way the characters developed within the structure, which was a far, far more important element of either book.

This reminds me of a project both my kids did in kindergarden. They were given a balsa-wood cutout of a gingbread child, and access to tubs of found objects and glue, and told to make a sort of self-portrait. Despite sharing the same raw materials, each portrait was wildly, wildly different.

(I’ll never forget the look of horror on the other mom-helper the day she spotted Junior’s. “Whose do you suppose *that* is?” she asked in hushed tones…who can say why Junior glued all that stuff on her little person until you couldn’t even see the shape beneath? But I was proud, and I told her so…)

If all 10 of us here at MSW started with the same premise and even similar character backstories (such as: murder mystery where the hero has a father in prison and the heroine is the cop who put him there) we would end up with 10 wildly different stories.

Allison, been there, done that! Had someone accuse me of copying Evanovich, or being a poor imitation. The irony of that is that when my mom read Evanovich, she called me and said, “Wow! This woman writes like you do.” We just have similar voices. It happens.

And I had the dog first. But never mind…

I have finally learned to not read certain reviews. It took me a long time, but when there’s nothing in the review that can help me as an author, then I stop. Spending the emotional energy on something I can’t control is counter productive.

And oh yeah, I’ve had that “Hey! They stole my idea” moments. But like everyone said, there really are no new ideas 🙂

Not going to get started on my paranormal series–it was a LONG process of building that world from research, logic (logic is vital) ) and imagination.

Jen, when I found out JR Ward had a Seven Deadly Sins series, I nearly flipped–and her first book came out before mine. Banging head. I sold the series in Spring 2008, but had the idea five years before! Grrr. But that’s life, right? Totally different books and ideas.

My voice is similar to Mariah Stewart, I’ve been told. In fact, Marti and I had developed, completely separate and not knowing what the other was doing, the same premise for killing victims (suffocation with plastic.) The two books were totally different.

Speaking of logic in the paranormal, I have to make sure that my world is theoretically possible (if you believe in demons.) And I needed a logical explanation for the victims who died. I came up with something that I ran by a doctor and it’s plausible, so that works for me (part of this comes out in CARNAL SIN at the morgue!)

When TWISTER came out, Steven Spielberg was sued for copyright infringement by someone else who’d shown his production company their copy of a tornado script. What amused me at the time was that I had read three separate scripts from friends/acquaintances who lived in different parts of the country who had all written tornado scripts — and had so many similarities to TWISTER, including the same names of some of the main characters, that it was just bizarre. It happens, it’s weird, but I know that none of them had access to Spielberg (or vice versa), so it was just a part of the zeitgeist going on at that time.

Friends of mine judge the Nicholl contest (for screenplays, run by the folks who run the Academy Awards), and every year, they will have a crop of scripts on the same subject, with the same themes, with bizarre similarities. One year it will be the reincarnation of Jesus from a molecule of blood from the shroud of Turan, the next year it will be vampires, and so on.

I think, as a culture, we seriously underestimate how much we all see in common–how global culture has become, and how much story structure influences our choices. (Because you’ve got to have conflicts and you’ve got to have goals, and those conflicts and goals have to fit the premise, which narrows down the choices considerably.)

It’s way more common than we’d like to think. Which is why writers shouldn’t worry about people copying a brilliant story idea–it’s the execution that matters and it’s the execution that’s going to make it stand out and sell.

So well said! I’ve heard the same from editors, that they see an influx of manuscripts on a subject they hadn’t seen before or recently. Like say time travel to the same time period. Or a slew of evil fey stories. Eerie.

Hi Allison
Great post. Really great because I think at the heart of it, most of us worry about being accused of ripping something off.
Funny thing about this comment, though, is that it COMPLETELY shows the gal’s ignorance about religion, supernatural and actual research. You CANNOT write a book involving anything on witches, demons or angels that has even a modest bit of research without being accused of taking it from somewhere, unless you make everything up and even then, you’ll probably come up with something similar to someone else’s idea.
Plus, for those of us who follow you over on Murderati, we’ve seen that you’ve openly admitted to being a fan of the show. You had that great blog that talked about seeing your idea on the TV. It happens. But sleep easy knowing that people who do actual research know that you’re going to have similarities with other works out there. People who look at a TV show and think its original just watch too much TV.
There truly is nothing new under the sun.

There are a lot of movies, books and tv shows that have similiar ideas and plots but they have to! There are only so many different ways to present something! There are so many books and shows now that they have run out of different ideas.

as my friend Poppy would say, shrug. i know that comes across as rude and indifferent, and while i don’t mean to seem rude, i am indifferent to reviews, good ones and bad ones. it’s someone’s opinion and we are all entitled. my first historical, Master of Surrender, was given an F- on some site because in the reviewer’s opinion I had ripped off Kathleen Woodiwiss’s The Wolf and the Dove and done a very poor job of it. Whatev. I wrote the book I wanted to write, if it’s similar or in someone’s eyes a rip off, here’s a tissue to blow your nose after you cry a river.

there will always be similarities. and there will always be someone to point it out.

Sorry, Allison, late to the party, but I loved this post. You know I love me some Supernatural 🙂

There are only so many ideas, and when you base something on accepted mythology, you’re screwed 1) if you “change” something, people don’t think you’ve done your research 2) if you stick with the tried and true…people claim you ripped it off.

So you are doing exactly what you set out to do — writing the book/series YOU want.

It’s so frustrating when that happens! A similar comment was made on my book SITUATION OUT OF CONTROL and the Stallone movie Cliff Hanger. True, they were both set on snowy slopes. True, they both had bad guys. But I had never even heard of the movie when I wrote the book. The way I figure it, great minds think alike!

OMG, that is one of my pet peeves. I recently got a review on my newest release, where the reviewer said that she was disappointed that I had “clearly” borrowed from Twilight.

Huh? I have NEVER read a Stephenie Meyer book, had not even seen Twilight until last month. And the first book in my series was in production before Twilight even hit the shelves.

Related to that, I dislike when reviewers assign motivation to an author. “The author was trying to cram as much sex into the book as possible,” or “The author is trying to do what Linda Howard does with her secondary characters,” or whatever.

Really? You KNOW what I was trying to do? *deep breath*

Whew. Okay, now that I’ve vented, I feel better! LOL Great post, Allison!

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Bio:

Allison Brennan

Allison Brennan is a New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of nearly three dozen romantic thrillers and mysteries, including the Lucy Kincaid series and the Max Revere series. She lives in Northern California with her husband, five children, and assorted pets.