This is not a sermon, but an answer to a question that needs a spiritual answer.

God is Spirit. Usually when one gets a limb amputated, it is because that limb has become life threatening. So the miracle is to remove it and the body becomes healed or is no longer threatened with death from a diseased limb. The bible says And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

God could have said he would grow these limbs back, but he said to cut them off. In the natural, he wants us to cut off sin that is in our lives. Amputees are his angels that remind us that we need to cut off sin in our lives. God desires that we prosper and be in health even as our soul prospers. Amputees are left with limbs that are alive and non life threatening. It is the will of God to cut off sin and this just symbolizes in the natural world a spiritual principle. You say why did God cause these people to suffer? Their reward is in heaven. He did not cause them to suffer, but he did not say he would grow limbs back, he said he would cut them off. It is his will and God can do anything he pleases. There is more to it than this earthly life as we know it. Jesus gave more than a limb, he gave his life so that we may be saved and forgiven for our sins.

For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. This says there everyone will be tested with fire. We do not live in this world without being tested. We all have burdens to bear. Some people have limbs cut off, others have other burdens. But this explains that the amputee’s fire is having a limb cut off. Symbolizing how we are cut off from God when we sin. That is why he won’t “heal” (I presume you mean grow the limb back). I hope this explains it to you. Bottom line is God wants us to be cut off from sin.

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Passage 2 Corinthians 10:4:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

According to you, every amputee in the world is an object lesson about sin. Hmm. Don't you think an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God could have come up with a much less cruel and sadistic way to teach a lesson? Your explanation is absurd, and is clearly grasping at straws. Oh the rationalization of the theist. This one takes the cake.

I think I said God can take what and not God always takes. Stop trying to make by writing what you want it to say. Instead read and understand. This means he can take if he desires not, but he doesn't always desire.

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Passage 2 Corinthians 10:4:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

I think I said God can take what and not God always takes. Stop trying to make by writing what you want it to say. Instead read and understand. This means he can take if he desires not, but he doesn't always desire.

With amputees he never desires. That is the question. And your answer that it is to teach an object lesson about sin is sick and twisted.

Usually when one gets a limb amputated, it is because that limb has become life threatening. So the miracle is to remove it and the body becomes healed or is no longer threatened with death from a diseased limb.

Amputation can occur from an accident. That has nothing to do with disease, and the analogy ends.

Unless, of course, god uses the limb to set the analogy of sin. Then the good limb is injured, say in a car accident, and has to be amputated. This is the analogy of separating us from sin?

This is, quite possibly, one of the most inane bits of reasoning I have ever run across.

Here is the correct interpretation of why god does not regrow limbs. god is imaginary, and therefore, cannot affect anything in the universe. Only when the answer to prayer has an ambiguous outcome, like the spontaneous healing of cancer, does the prayer seem to be answered. Even though, when answered, the answer is within the statistical realm of normal healing, given the treatment. For example, the five-year survival rate for a diagnosis of stage 4 malignant, metastatic melanoma is about 6%; and it's the same for those who pray and are prayed for, and for those who do not pray and are not prayed for.

When the answer to a prayer is unambiguous, such that any sane person can see and verify the outcome, then the answer to the prayer is always no. Thus, failure to ever head an amputated limb.

This means he can take if he desires not, but he doesn't always desire.

You're right. Correction on my part, he desires all amputees, and basically anybody that never gets healing, to suffer. If he desired for them to not suffer, he would have healed them.

God answers prayer. God does not desire anyone to suffer and never did I say that. I know it is hard to understand, but when you become a believer, it will be clearer. Sometimes people are not healed, they just die in the natural. It doesn't mean that they weren't healed. If they are believers they will have eternal life and will never suffer again. If they are non believer...Oh well. Now even though some people do not choose God, he desires that everyone chooses him. But he gave us free will so it is up to us what we choose.

So are you saying that there should be no suffering in the world? I agree with you on that, but this is not the final stop we have to always remember, that there is a world where there is no more suffering...it's a place called heaven.

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Passage 2 Corinthians 10:4:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

God answers prayer. God does not desire anyone to suffer and never did I say that. I know it is hard to understand, but when you become a believer, it will be clearer. Sometimes people are not healed, they just die in the natural. It doesn't mean that they weren't healed. If they are believers they will have eternal life and will never suffer again. If they are non believer...Oh well. Now even though some people do not choose God, he desires that everyone chooses him. But he gave us free will so it is up to us what we choose.

So are you saying that there should be no suffering in the world? I agree with you on that, but this is not the final stop we have to always remember, that there is a world where there is no more suffering...it's a place called heaven.

So only believers can "understand"? You fail on this one big time. Many of us on this forum were believers at one time, and it's because of things like this that we are not believers any more. You don't really understand yourself. You're just making up rationalizations for your god. Rationalizations that make him sound like a sadistic creep, I might add.

God answers prayer. God does not desire anyone to suffer and never did I say that. I know it is hard to understand, but when you become a believer, it will be clearer. Sometimes people are not healed, they just die in the natural. It doesn't mean that they weren't healed. If they are believers they will have eternal life and will never suffer again. If they are non believer...Oh well. Now even though some people do not choose God, he desires that everyone chooses him. But he gave us free will so it is up to us what we choose.

So are you saying that there should be no suffering in the world? I agree with you on that, but this is not the final stop we have to always remember, that there is a world where there is no more suffering...it's a place called heaven.

Either god wants them to suffer or he doesn't, there really is no third option. Perhaps he's indifferent to human suffering? If he wanted them to suffer, they'd suffer, which is basically what is going on right now. If he didn't want them to suffer, they wouldn't, which is what is not happening, as no amputees have been healed. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

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"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " - Martin Luther King Jr.

"He wants us to stop sinning- to stop hurting each other. And one of the ways we do that is by coming to Jesus and eating His flesh and drinking His blood"-theist

Peter Kreeft discusses this issue in his treatment of Pascal’s Pens?es: “He [God] gives exactly the right amount of light. If he gave less, even the righteous would be unable to find him, and their will would be thwarted. If he gave more, even the wicked would find him, against their will. Thus he respects and fulfills the will of all.”

Peter Kreeft discusses this issue in his treatment of Pascal’s Pens?es: “He [God] gives exactly the right amount of light. If he gave less, even the righteous would be unable to find him, and their will would be thwarted. If he gave more, even the wicked would find him, against their will. Thus he respects and fulfills the will of all.”

Once the righteous have found the light they lose free will.

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So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence. --Bertrand Russell

Then you say that the righteous loose morals when they do find 'the light', as that requires autonomy.

How does someone loose free will if they find God?If I suddenly found God and understood religion - I admit, I don't - does that mean that suddenly I would have no power to turn around and say "I believe what God allows to go on on Earth is awful" and stop worshipping?

This is the equivalent of saying once you know how a computer works you can't turn it off.

see what you guys think of this quotePeter Kreeft discusses this issue in his treatment of Pascal’s Pens?es: “He [God] gives exactly the right amount of light. If he gave less, even the righteous would be unable to find him, and their will would be thwarted. If he gave more, even the wicked would find him, against their will. Thus he respects and fulfills the will of all.”

About as much as I think of this quote:

"There once was a prophet named Dave, Who kept a dead whore in a cave.She was minus one t*t, and she smelled like shit, But think of the money he saved!"

Don't you think an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God could have come up with a much less cruel and sadistic way to teach a lesson? Your explanation is absurd, and is clearly grasping at straws. Oh the rationalization of the theist. This one takes the cake.

But this implies God specifically chooses to inflict pain upon people, whereas one propertie of God is benevolence.Forget the idea God 'performs miracles' in hospitals, you got that from some statistical data about what doctors think. For God to be benevolent it means he can't decide upon whom to inflict evil, as this would be a contradiction, so therefore evil must be random. Therefore the fact amputees don't spontaneously re-grow limbs isn't because it's "not Gods will" etc, its because you had a bit of bad luck and fell victim to the random selection of evil.

But this implies God specifically chooses to inflict pain upon people, whereas one propertie of God is benevolence.Forget the idea God 'performs miracles' in hospitals, you got that from some statistical data about what doctors think. For God to be benevolent it means he can't decide upon whom to inflict evil, as this would be a contradiction, so therefore evil must be random. Therefore the fact amputees don't spontaneously re-grow limbs isn't because it's "not Gods will" etc, its because you had a bit of bad luck and fell victim to the random selection of evil.

You can't have it both ways, Anontro. Either God is omnibenevolent or he allows amputees to exist unhealed. Both cannot be true. Since amputees exist unhealed, an omnibenevolent God does not exist.

If I suddenly found God and understood religion - I admit, I don't - does that mean that suddenly I would have no power to turn around and say "I believe what God allows to go on on Earth is awful" and stop worshipping?

This is the equivalent of saying once you know how a computer works you can't turn it off.

According to the quote, God is giving enough evidence to allow the righteous to know that he is real and exists, but not enough evidence that the wicked would also have this knowledge.

Once the righteous have found that evidence, then they know that God exists, so why would they then deny that he exists later? This is basically the same argument that Christians make all the time when they say that if God performed a bonafied miracle today that it would rob us of our free will, because who's going to deny God when they have 100% certainty that he exists.

Honestly, though, I think both arguments fail.

Oh, and here's one other thing:

Quote

Thus he respects and fulfills the will of all

I've got all of these theists telling me it's all about GOD'S will, not human's will. God only answers prayer if it is IN HIS WILL or God considers everything OUTSIDE OF HIS WILL to be sin, yadda, yadda. They carry on about God's will all the time and how everything revolves around God's will. As a matter of fact, the very idea that you can go to hell for not doing GOD'S will is proof positive that God doesn't give a hoot about my will. He only RESPECTS his OWN will, when it gets down to brass tacks.

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So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence. --Bertrand Russell

Usually when one gets a limb amputated, it is because that limb has become life threatening. So the miracle is to remove it and the body becomes healed or is no longer threatened with death from a diseased limb

So what about those people who lose an arm or leg in a car accident. IMO the one who is most severely injured in a car accident is usually the one who didn't cause the accident. So why not take the limb from the guy who messed up?

Hmm, here is something I've been thinking about for the last couple of days: Why can our liver regenerate, but our arms and legs can't. I mean 'god' did give our bodies the technology to regenerate, so why not our limbs?

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"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

You whole body can regenerate. If you are saved when you die (and we do agree that everyone is going to die), you will receive a glorified body, which is a perfect body free of any disease or problems and you will live in eternity. To be saved you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he was raised from the dead and now lives in heaven with the Father praying for us. Your body will not regenerate if you are not saved. That's the way it is.

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Passage 2 Corinthians 10:4:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

You whole body can regenerate. If you are saved when you die (and we do agree that everyone is going to die), you will receive a glorified body, which is a perfect body free of any disease or problems and you will live in eternity. To be saved you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he was raised from the dead and now lives in heaven with the Father praying for us. Your body will not regenerate if you are not saved. That's the way it is.

Oh, so you are going with the "amputees get their reward in heaven" line.

So how do you explain how God supposedly performs all these miracles for humans, like healing all manner of ailments, yet conspicuously doesn't heal amputees?

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So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence. --Bertrand Russell

You are mistaken. Amputees are healed. For if they would not have had the limb cut off, it would have killed them. If the limb was cut off in an accident, the wound left unattended would have killed the person. So there is healing. Not limbs growing back and I have already explained why that happens.

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Passage 2 Corinthians 10:4:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

You are mistaken. Amputees are healed. For if they would not have had the limb cut off, it would have killed them. If the limb was cut off in an accident, the wound left unattended would have killed the person. So there is healing. Not limbs growing back and I have already explained why that happens.

Give me your address, and I'll come over with a healing hacksaw.

BTW, your comment is an insane version of the Yes, No, and Wait argument;

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI[/youtube]

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Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons. --Michael Shermer

The history of religion is a long attempt to reconcile old custom with new reason, to find a sound theory for an absurd practice. --Sir James George Frazer

Even though you don't believe in God, he loves you anyway. At some point in your life you will need something from God. When you are ready, he will be there waiting for you. I know it is hard to understand the truth, but that doesn't change the fact that it is true.

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Passage 2 Corinthians 10:4:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Even though you don't believe in God, he loves you anyway. At some point in your life you will need something from God. When you are ready, he will be there waiting for you. I know it is hard to understand the truth, but that doesn't change the fact that it is true.

He loves you but he's going to throw you in hell for eternity?

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"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. " - Martin Luther King Jr.

"He wants us to stop sinning- to stop hurting each other. And one of the ways we do that is by coming to Jesus and eating His flesh and drinking His blood"-theist