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Randori feeds kata and kata feeds randori. I have to say that generally I find judo kata boring to watch and do - the pacing is just too slow and the general idea that kata training comes later breaks down the relationship to a more one sided (randori feeds kata) nature.

There were judoka that had their own ideas about this and did things differently (speed and balance) but I personally find the judo kata too stilted to be called elegant.

Well offence and defence can be considered a product of range,. A fighter aircraft is a defensive weapon whereas recon can be considered the eyes of an offensive force. However, the SR-71 is elegance personified - that is just one beautiful/elegant design.

Anyway I think the key word for elegance is simplicity. Minimal movement delivering maximum effect and that pretty much matches the wikipedia definition. I have seen some Aikido demonstrations that had all sorts of extras that destroyed any sense of elegance and some brutally simple moves that were the height of elegance. Strangely (or perhaps not) the most elegant moves I've seen were in unscripted randori whereas human nature being what it is - the concept of elegance was destroyed with the martial flourish in demonstrations. This I think is true in Judo, Karate, name your flavour.

SR-71=WMD and man made = unnatural were my points of contention. I said nothing of offense versus defense. If you posit that using ones senses is an act of offense then we can have another thread to clarify that position.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Contentiousness over semantical differences, and of challenging the American right to state opinions, however controversial, is a total misuse of this Forum.Ignorance is as ignorance does. How inelegant for this worthwhile topic to degenerate so.
The genesis for any WMD has always, and will always be in the mind of the antisocial "genius", who feels vindicated by any means to express his or her contempt for mankind. If a "probe" is invented and utilized to complete delivery of the WMD, isn't it part and parcel of the entire package? Isn't inhumanity and its tragic face of arrogant ignorance what we need to guard against?

Let us all join in helping Jun Akiyama in restoring the face of reason and civility to his wonderful gift.

Contentiousness over semantical differences, and of challenging the American right to state opinions, however controversial, is a total misuse of this Forum.
Let us all join in helping Jun Akiyama in restoring the face of reason and civility to his wonderful gift.

Unreasonable and uncivil? It seems beauty is not the only thing to be found in the eye of the beholder ...

As tax paying citizens we all bear the burden of the actions our military industrial complex manages to perpetrate.

Telephone = WMD. I understand your perspective.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

The genesis for any WMD has always, and will always be in the mind of the antisocial "genius", who feels vindicated by any means to express his or her contempt for mankind.

This rings hollow... do you really mean the greatest scientific minds in the last century creating the atomic bomb were antisocial? Misguided into believing they were doing the "right" thing most certainly... antisocial though? Contempt for mankind?

All things considered, all comments aside.....as I think back over the years I have been around Aikido the one individual who to me represented both grace and elegance in motion is Frank Doran. Upright and straight, moving from place to place with little effort and looking good doing it.........

I don't mind some thread drift, but please make sure that each thread tries to maintain its relevancy to its original intention. Especially if your discussion starts revolving around a topic outside of aikido, please start a new thread for its discussion.

All things considered, all comments aside.....as I think back over the years I have been around Aikido the one individual who to me represented both grace and elegance in motion is Frank Doran. Upright and straight, moving from place to place with little effort and looking good doing it.........

as always
Gary

I had similar thoughts. I was thinking of Ueshiba. He had grace, elegance, speed, effectiveness +++.

Reading the examples cited by Gary and Graham, I am reminded of three examples. Unfortunately, our old computer here no longer can play videos, but I remember two jiyu waza (called freestyle, not sure if the word randori is used in demonstrations by these teachers) in separate clips of Koichi Tohei Sensei and Mitsugi Saotome Sensei --- each when faced by multiple attackers quickly and elegantly just moved through the "pack" and then spun them off, I don't remember the rest, just that first, elegant, direct and effective entering move against which none of the attackers could do anything.
I guess that's the first example of elegant that comes to my mind.

The second is one teacher, Sadateru Arikawa Sensei, who took, what to my mind looked like "extra steps" that I saw in both Irimi Nage and Ikkyo in his regular classes while teaching. In Irimi Nage it seemed to propel the uke quite a bit faster and get him or her just that much more off balance, creating even more of a whirlpool effect even than might be expected with this technique, So the effect of just one or two extra steps, still resulted in .... elegant.... And in Ikkyo, he would , while holding uke's arm stretching uke's body onto the mat, walk with it one or two steps. It seemed very effective yet still elegant with the steps that might at first appear to be "extra"

By the way, for the Endo Sensei fans (not sure of his first name) now there's someone whose Aiikido is obviously elegant.

I've just mentioned specific moments on the videos of Koichi Tohei and Mitsugi Saotome and then remembering Sadateru Arikawa classes that instantly came to mind when I decided to post.

Hope this fits in with the original topic... love this thread and reading all the points of view.

Here are the words of a master of the shakuhachi, a Japanese bamboo flute.

I think it resonates with this topic.

"Geido (the Way of Art)

The secret of the way of art is in wabi and sabi. Like seeing all of life in a single stem of a flower, as a player you put all of life's force into the sound of one note, and this transcends life and death. This is true of any Eastern philosophy and art. Sometimes its called kyo or mu. With the tangible you participate in the intangible. With the visible, you go into the invisible. These are deep and high truths, and hard to understand by lay people. Shakuhachi koten honkyoku is an extreme example of this. So when you live in the rarified world of koten honkyoku where nothing is there, that is where you live limitlessly. Like Bashō, Rikyű, Saigy§, you live in Jakubaku (aloneness).

"Autumn evening, This path, no-one is walking
At the foot of the mountain in Winter,
is there anyone else who is enduring this loneliness?"

Unlike Western culture which analytically tries to express the height of the human spirit (extrovert), Eastern culture looks for the heavenly world in this invisible, hidden arena of wabi and sabi. "Willow is green, flowers are red" That is the essence of creation. "Duck's feet are short, crane's feet are long". We want to cultivate the goodness of Eastern culture and learn the benefits of Western culture. Everything goes back to one-ness.'

In aikido demonstrations, the more advanced the persons executing the techniques and taking the falls are, the more balanced their minds, techniques and bodies become. As their kokyu or breathing becomes united, the artistic beauty of harmony emerges. This beauty is different from the elegant beauty of dancing or gymnastics. I would describe it as a severe beauty, that is, like an autumn frost.
Gozo Shioda Sensei

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats

Form follows function, they say
This applies in architecture
And many other disciplines
Including aikido, I think
In aikido, especially
The difficulty lies in
Creating a simplicity
Balanced by elegance
That permits nage and uke
To flow into form and function
As need and situation arises
Blending the elegantly difficult
Into a creative discipline
Of form, function, and art

Some years ago, I remember sitting, watching someone take his Sandan test. The person to my right described his performance as "Neanderthal Aikido", the shihan to my left described the same movements as "young Chiba Sensei" (who definitely does not perform "Neanderthal Aikido"). Myself, my mouth just hung open watching his movements and wondering how he accomplished some of the things he did and how he moved doing them. As Gary mentioned re Frank Doran Sensei, he just looked good doing it. That, I think, sums it up. As in some other things, we just recognize it when we see it, but different people can look at the same thing and have different perceptions. "Form, function, and art", if the form and fuction are "mastered", then that leaves "art", which can be a very subjective thing indeed, when determining "elegance".

"In aikido demonstrations, the more advanced the persons executing the techniques and taking the falls are, the more balanced their minds, techniques and bodies become. As their kokyu or breathing becomes united, the artistic beauty of harmony emerges. This beauty is different from the elegant beauty of dancing or gymnastics. I would describe it as a severe beauty, that is, like an autumn frost."

Gozo Shioda

One of the things I love most about Japanese culture is the genius for creating succinct, beautifully apt metaphor; simple but perfect.

This is done achieved those who have spent a lifetime refining their art and have managed to condense the essence of what they do, like a great chef reducing a sauce into a highly concentrated stock.

As far as I know, Shioda Sensei was not particularly noted for his eloquence, but that quote is beautiful.