Carry Enough Gun

This is a discussion on Carry Enough Gun within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; About a year ago, I decided to get a HCP and carry concealed. At that time I started to carry with the Glock G22 and ...

About a year ago, I decided to get a HCP and carry concealed. At that time I started to carry with the Glock G22 and S&W L-frame .357 I owned. Long story short--gun stayed home most of the time because I couldn't dress to conceal it. (I am a little guy gun ends up about as big as I am, or so it appears.) I sold G22 and put up L-Frame, invested in S&W J-frames (640 and 642) and carry EDC now. I also walked into a G23, which I bought primarily because I had the money to spare and the owner needed cash to feed kids after our local factory moved to Mexico. I have since purchased holsters for it and may carry it too, after I put a few hundred more rounds through it and feel comfortable with reliability. If I really had my druthers, I'd rather carry a Barrett .50 cal, but that isn't really practical, so .38 Spcl will do for now. I practice a lot and I feel confident at 10 yards and under. If they are further away than that I probably shouldn't be firing anyway, I hang out in crowds! I have learned in 65 years to stay in the middle of the herd!

I'm having a little bit of trouble with this story. There was a feeble attempt at a robbery, but no offer of deadly force, and the friend responded by brandishing a firearm. He didn't say "stop, stay away" in his command voice first, or make any attempt to dissuade any approach verbally. He pulled his gun out for the purpose of intimidation, and was successful at that; it was probably also a crime, and may be assault with a deadly weapon. And he can't plead self-defense because he wasn't attacked.

Next time, those three guys will have guns with them.

I think that guy needs to take the NRA "Personal Protection Outside the Home" course. And he'd better keep his mouth shut about what happened, except when talking to his attorney.

I think people ought to be really really circumspect about pulling out guns, and if they pull them out they'd better go bang. Just pulling one out and not doing anything with it can get you shot.

Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.

i shoot the best w/my 239sig it is very accurate even at 25yrds. w/an extra mag i have 8+1 in my gun and 8 more in another mag for 17 rounds of 9mm federal hst.
if i go on a long trip through areas i don't know i carry my XD service .40cal w/extra mag for a total of 25 rounds
i dont care for pocket pistols at all myself.

if i ever have to draw my gun on anyone im sure i would wish i had my AK-47 instead no matter what the odds were anyway.

You can only use weapon if you are in fear of deadly force. (in house break-in Castle Doctrine prevails, you can assume deadly threat) ( Outside they must show weapon or state they are going to kill you. (a) better have witnesses (b) kill, not beat up.

If you draw, it is because you need to stop them, so FIRE. Otherwise you are brandishing.

If money is involved, give it to them. If that doesn't work go to plan "B", which may involve weapon. (a) never keep large sums of money in wallet. (b) don't keep DL or HCP in wallet. In TN you can't shoot a thief if he isn't threatening to kill you or cripple you.

I know all of this sounds pretty weak kneed, but TN law is very specific as to when you are entitled to draw weapon. You are not an LEO and prevention of crime is an LEO function. You are armed to protect the lives (not property) of yourself and family. Warning the thief that you are armed is not legal grounds to fire.

There are other states with more liberal laws as to use and showing of gun, but here in TN you better be careful.

In this case he couldn't get all of them and survivors would have outnumbered him as witnesses at his trial. The argument that they outnumbered him (a provision for use of deadly force) would have been negated by their testimony, as they would have state they hadn't threatened him. Our liberal press would have tried and convicted him on the air before it even got to trial.

I guess it depends on your locale. Maybe a good move there, but not a good move here.

What does "enough gun mean"? All in all handguns have poor "stopping" power meaning that often they fail to eventually kill people. If you manage to hit your target you will hopefully cause a break in action where you can retreat. That is what it is designed to do, not carry out a long protracted battle. It is a shovel to dig you out of a hole so you can look around and decide what your next move is. The gun cannot fight without you.

Caliber and blade length are poor substitutes for mindset and training.

When I was growing up I heard many guys say, "Get a big looking gun, ... a little gun may enrage somebody!"

I dunno on this one, but after watching many, many bar fights, domestic disputes, and a lot of other crap over the years - all I can say presenting the weapon with the correct attitude, and stance, no matter who you are, it can and will - make a difference.

Here is an example from a little lady in Hamilton, Ohio. who
told the guy who busted down here door and said,
"That he was going to kill her."

She said,
"It may be little, and you may kill me, but you'll be known as the only guy in prison "WITH NO NUTS!" cause that is where I am going to shoot you sir!!!"

That is exactly why I have practiced for several yrs carrying my g23. It stays concealed and I forget its there because I do it on a regular basis. Every time i would cary my BUG as a primary I felt "naked" and like my defnse shields were down. I carry it and no BUG becaus ei dont have one right now. But a BUG is that a "backup" to ANOTHER gun. And a Mouse gun is that litle and weak. Yes he came out okay but I totally understand him thinking he needs to possibly needs to "carry more gun."

...and remember there is something still to be said for walk softly and carry a BIG stick.

The point was made that it stopped a robbery. Out west where you can shoot somebody just because you don't like them that might work. Here in TN and in most Eastern states, you absolutely cannot use deadly force (draw a weapon) to protect property, regardless of numbers of assailants. Stopping a robbery isn't grounds for use of a firearm nor is a large number of assailants unless you can pretty much prove in court that they intended to kill you. If they weren't armed and no witness on your side is present to say they heard multiple threats from all of them to kill you, you are pretty much going to be guilty of manslaughter or at least assault with a deadly weapon. Now the judge may be understanding and send you for 5 years instead of 20 but you will almost assuredly go to jail. Eastern judges don't like vigilantes. The old saw that they have to prove the other guys weren't going to hurt you doesn't cut it. That goes along with the innocent until proven guilty , it isn't reality. The minute you are arrested, you are one guilty SOB and you have to prove your innocence. Those who don't believe that need to sit on a few juries.

This just proves that situational awareness is as important to CCWer as it is to the unarmed guy.

Not all threats can be neutralized with your weapon. A gun isn't to keep you from being beat up or robbed. It is to keep you from being killed. It doesn't protect you from all harmdoing.

Common sense and situational awareness are meant to keep you from being robbed or beat up. Don't park in the dark or too far away from store entrance. Don't walk down or too close to dark alleys. Stay away from Bars and loud clubs. Don't try testng your manhood by deliberately doing stupid things.

The point was made that it stopped a robbery. Out west where you can shoot somebody just because you don't like them that might work. Here in TN and in most Eastern states, you absolutely cannot use deadly force (draw a weapon) to protect property, regardless of numbers of assailants. Stopping a robbery isn't grounds for use of a firearm nor is a large number of assailants unless you can pretty much prove in court that they intended to kill you. If they weren't armed and no witness on your side is present to say they heard multiple threats from all of them to kill you, you are pretty much going to be guilty of manslaughter or at least assault with a deadly weapon. Now the judge may be understanding and send you for 5 years instead of 20 but you will almost assuredly go to jail. Eastern judges don't like vigilantes. The old saw that they have to prove the other guys weren't going to hurt you doesn't cut it. That goes along with the innocent until proven guilty , it isn't reality. The minute you are arrested, you are one guilty SOB and you have to prove your innocence. Those who don't believe that need to sit on a few juries.

This just proves that situational awareness is as important to CCWer as it is to the unarmed guy.

Not all threats can be neutralized with your weapon. A gun isn't to keep you from being beat up or robbed. It is to keep you from being killed. It doesn't protect you from all harmdoing.

Common sense and situational awareness are meant to keep you from being robbed or beat up. Don't park in the dark or too far away from store entrance. Don't walk down or too close to dark alleys. Stay away from Bars and loud clubs. Don't try testng your manhood by deliberately doing stupid things.

Use your head to keep you from having to use your gun.

So, while you are being beaten, at what point do you come to the conclusion that they are going to kill you?? After both arms are broken, do you then decide they are going to kill you, but now both arms do not work, lets say they get you on the ground, now start kicking you, do you know if they intend only to bruise you up a little, or will the next steel toed boot land to the side of your head??? When you finally come to the conclusion the beating will leave you for dead, do you have enough left in you to stop it now. They ask you for your money, give it to them---probably the best, but hands on, do you really know their intent. Don't forget when they are checking over your about to be room temperature body, and find your CCW, now who's going to get a taste of that????

For me if I am alone, I will run, I can, and maybe they won't chase, but if the chase is on, now my tactics change big time.

Put your reply through my prepaid legal service blog. You may have hit on, for you at least, the "trigger" for use of deadly force. If you throw them the money and then run, robbery is out as intent and a chase gives you reasonable fear for your life. Now you have grounds for use of your weapon.

Legal beagles say once you attempt to leave the "arena" and they pursue or block you, you are no longer a party in the fight and you are in a deadly force situation. If you stay and join "fight" by arguing or threatening them you are a participating party and can no longer use your weapon. Keep your mouth shut and try to retreat. Drawing weapon as a threat is not good step, keep weapon concealed until you are in position where you are going to have to fire. Basically attempt to leave first and then play it by ear after that.

Original post was directed at stopping a robbery not a physical assault. Robbery situation says throw them the money. If he/they move toward you after that you are in a felony assault situation, but again only draw weapon with intent to fire. I have been a victim of a robbery, in Chicago in a building parking lot. I gave up wallet and perp left. (Couldn't CCW in Chicago!). Lesson learned. Carry big money, Drivers License ,HCP and large credit cards separate from wallet. Carry $50.00 or less in wallet and only small limit credit cards that are on Card Guard (Phone call and they are immediately useless). Robbery isn't a big issue! If robbery doesn't satisfy them, Condition Red-Black imminent..

It is all very, very complicated. If I have to do it, I hope the SOB has a knife or gun and it is an easy decision!

I can assure you we're just as civilized and sophisticated as our fellow citizens in the south and east. We don't shoot people just because we don't like them. We actually have to obey the law, too.

Back 150 years or so, we could kill a man just 'cause he needed killin', but we've pretty much discontinued that practice now...

I apologize for the generalization. It just seems from so many previous posts that Westerners could fire for a lot more reasons than we can.

In Tennessee, the only clear cut time we can draw and/or fire is when we are in actual fear of our life or the life of a family member. The weapon cannot be drawn as an intimidation factor (this can become AWDW) nor to protect any property (your wallet included). Helping others is so wrapped up in legal jargon that it may or may not be a viable reason to use weapon depending on situation. Most LEOs in TN believe it to mean that you make the 911 call and back out of situation, and as my legal service reads the law that seems to be the most reasonable case.

After reading the laws myself, I really believe this was done, not to prevent legal entanglements, but to keep private citizens out of public gunfights where it is actually a LEO matter.

Tennessee does have one of the best "Castle Doctrine" laws however, and a private citizen in his home is given great leeway to protect his family in their abode or even a motel if traveling.

I think Tennessee lawmakers are pretty gun-wise and realize that, if a gun is fired, somebody is going to die. based on that, they wrote the laws so a gun can only be drawn when there is sufficient justification to kill. It removes the confrontive mindset and replaces it with the combat mindset. As a retired Marine, I find the TN laws refreshingly clear and I can live with them as the Rules of Engagement.

I shouldn't have made the generalization about the West because I don't really know your laws and I don't know how many of those posts were bravado and fiction, not law based. Again I apologize to Westerners in general.