So, with the Hybrid you get an extra two mpg in the city, the same mpg on the highway, and a measly 35 more HP to haul around the extra 300lb of weight. Oh, and you get all that for a minor premium of $6,500.

Let's break down the numbers: The owner drives 15,000 miles per year and that's all in the city (best case). Assume that he really saves 2 mile/gallon (no guarantee that'll happen) and that premium unleaded costs $4.50/gallon. That means he would save a whopping $52 dollars a year with this car. Dividing the extra $6,500 cost of the car (not including taxes) he would have to drive the car for 27 years and 405,000 miles to recoup his money. If he drives only 10,000 per year he'd have to drive it 41 years. Yeah, but the price of gas is going up! Sure it is. To recoup $6,500 in the typical 3 year/15,000 mile average ownership time gas would have to go up to $41.65 per gallon.

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?

BMW's hybrid is not that of Toyota's. The purpose of Toyota's hybrid is to save gas at the sacrifice of performance. BMW's hybrid is to improve the performance while still maintain the gas mileage.
Active 3 has better 0-60 than 335.
Totally two different concepts and approaches.
Whether this performance improvement justify the cost is everyone's take.

chasfh commented: February 21, 2013, 1:11 pm

Exactly. A $6,500 premium ensures that you would never get your money's worth out of it.

In order for you to come out even between the two options (hybrid vs. gas) on the lifetime [cost of gas + cost of car], the hybrid would have to average 150 miles per gallon. That would result in a lifetime gas cost of $1,332, which roughly makes up the $6,500 price premium on the car.

As it stands, since the BMW ActiveHybrid 3 averages only 28 MPG, you still need to buy 125 tanksful of gas to get to 50,000 for a lifetime gas cost of $7,242, an overall savings of less than $600.

Yeah--it's definitely a bad deal.

neilsarkar commented: February 21, 2013, 1:18 pm

Almost same figures in the 5-land -- 20/30 for 535i vs 23/30 for AH5. Then you get smaller trunk and cannot option adaptive cruise with AH5. The $3,500 eco credit softens the price shock quite a bit though. I think it's more about making a green statement rather than saving fuel.

They are not selling in droves if my nearest dealer's inventory is an indication:

The hybrid 3 can easily get better mpg's than the epa numbers suggest. Just as both the 335 and 328 can and do.

You guys are also forgetting about the $3500 eco credit.

It's quite possible to get almost $10K off of MSRP on a hybrid 3. This puts the true price of the hybrid at about $1500 or so more than a similarly equipped 335. Many would say that addnl cost is worth the added grunt, newer idrive, and better fuel economy compared to the 335.

So, with the Hybrid you get an extra two mpg in the city, the same mpg on the highway, and a measly 35 more HP to haul around the extra 300lb of weight. Oh, and you get all that for a minor premium of $6,500.

Let's break down the numbers: The owner drives 15,000 miles per year and that's all in the city (best case). Assume that he really saves 2 gallons per mile (no guarantee that'll happen) and that premium unleaded costs $4.50/gallon. That means he would save a whopping $52 dollars a year with this car. Dividing the extra $6,500 cost of the car (not including taxes) he would have to drive the car for 27 years and 405,000 miles to recoup his money. If he drives only 10,000 per year he'd have to drive it 41 years. Yeah, but the price of gas is going up! Sure it is. To recoup $6,500 in the typical 3 year/15,000 mile average ownership time gas would have to go up to $41.65 per gallon.

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?

I'm with you, been asking myself the same question

jacar commented: February 21, 2013, 1:33 pm

Another perspective:
Returning a base 328i and leasing a fully loaded AH3. With incentives, etc. the lease is about $80/month more than paying now and about $40/month more than a 335i.
Currently I pay $60/week=$240/month for gas, getting average of 20mph (a lot of city driving, sitting at stops-my average speed over many months is 22mph).
If the AH3 gets 30mpg I will pay $160/month for gas, saving $80/month.
So for the same total cost of ownership per month, I get a much better car that current and would save $40/month over a new 335i.
Why would I not do this?

smitguy commented: February 21, 2013, 1:48 pm

Doesn't make too much financial sense, but if it allowed me to drive in the NoVa HOV lanes by myself (unlike the Prius, I don't think it's eligible), I would have given it a hard look.

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 1:57 pm

Lots of bad math in this thread.

First, there is an ongoing BMW Eco-credit of $3500 on the AH3. That brings the delta between the AH3 and a 335i to $3000 even. Second, you must consider the fact that the 335i has very limited allocations (especially Munich-builds), and as such are not typically discounted very much. In my experience, dealers are much more willing to negotiate on the AH3, and typically have allocations ready to go. With minimal negotiating skills, you should be able to bring that $3000 delta to $1500.

So... for $1500 what do you get?

New NBT Nav - this will likely change after August, when all F30s get the new Nav

Better mpg, on par with the 328i. I get 27mpg in the city, about 33 on the hwy

MUCH improved A.S.S. It is unnoticeable, vs. the typically obvious restart on the 335i, and especially the 328i

Free options - on my AH3, I got the following as $0 charge options when I ordered in Nov 2012:

Heated Steering Wheel

Speed Limit Info 8TH

Lane Departure Warning

Frontal Collision Warning

**** Now it appears only 8TH is free, check with your dealer****

More power/torque than 335i

What are the downsides? Not sure I've found any, yet. BTW, I got exactly $10K off the sticker price of my AH3. Great car, all around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace14

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?

I feel very much in my right mind The $1500 premium means hardly anything in the grand scheme of things. And I love love love the new Nav! By my "butt dyno", the AH3 feels faster than the 335i. My previous car was a 2012 E92. The AH3 feels just as fast as the M3. It doesn't have the grip like an M3, but it can put down the power, for sure. The electric motor delivers terrific torque.

bluelectron commented: February 21, 2013, 2:40 pm

I just picked up my first BMW, an AH3 with Premium, Tech and Park Distance for $48.5K. The price included the $3500 eco credit and $1000 BMW finance rebate. A similarly equipped 335i after negotiation would cost around $48K. Also, with the current 1.9% financing as opposed to 3.19% for the 335i you end up paying lesser for the AH3 over the lifetime of the load. I did not go with the lease option as I drive 30 miles one way to work. It has been less than 24 hours and I am very happy and excited with the AH3.

Mark K commented: February 21, 2013, 2:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace14

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?

Cuz racecar!

Oh, wrong thread, sorry ....

Cuz HYBRID!

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 2:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluelectron

I just picked up my first BMW, an AH3 with Premium, Tech and Park Distance for $48.5K. The price included the $3500 eco credit and $1000 BMW finance rebate. A similarly equipped 335i after negotiation would cost around $48K. Also, with the current 1.9% financing as opposed to 3.19% for the 335i you end up paying lesser for the AH3 over the lifetime of the load. I did not go with the lease option as I drive 30 miles one way to work. It has been less than 24 hours and I am very happy and excited with the AH3.

Nice. Congrats!

The 1.90% rate is very new! Assume a 5yr $45K note, the interest savings on the AH3 are a solid $1500 right there.

BMW is not dumb, they know how to use incentives to get people into certain models.

chasfh commented: February 21, 2013, 4:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

[*]New NBT Nav - this will likely change after August, when all F30s get the new Nav

Says here that all 3-Series get the NBT as of November 2012 production:

All F30s (not for North America) go the NBT with November 2012 production.

It is assumed NA F30s will get it with the MY2014 switchover in July 2013.

ActiveHybrid 3s have always had the NBT.

chasfh commented: February 21, 2013, 4:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

All F30s (not for North America) go the NBT with November 2012 production.

It is assumed NA F30s will get it with the MY2014 switchover in July 2013.

ActiveHybrid 3s have always had the NBT.

Do you have any link verifying this? Every google I do of it leads me into other BMW forums.

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 4:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chasfh

Do you have any link verifying this? Every google I do of it leads me into other BMW forums.

Verifying which part?

It is very common knowledge that European customers with F30s built after November 1, 2012 (Production Week 45) get the new Navigation. Pictures, forum members' confirmation, etc.

It is also common knowledge that US/Canada members who received PW45+ F30s still have the old Nav.

everettpa1 commented: February 21, 2013, 5:02 pm

Hybrids suck and are stupid. Diesels are the way to go to achieve the performance and fuel savings gain. Yeah let's add 300-400 pounds to a vehicle. That's fun.

Everybody has to have a stupid hybrid in the lineup.

Buy an egg shaped hybrid for maximum fuel efficiency if you don't care about styling or performance. That makes sense. You want max fuel economy go get one.

But buying a luxury car with a Hybrid makes no sense. You get marginal power bumps and marginal fuel savings. You can never justify the price difference on gas savings alone, unless you drive 100K miles a year, or the car is loaded with giveaway money, like this AH3.

No car company would do this if they didn't have to do it. It's nearly as dopey as the Efficient Dynamics crap and ASS (great acronym BTW), and eco pro, and yuck.

BMW is right on the border of annoying with this gas savings nonsense.

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 5:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

Hybrids suck and are stupid. Diesels are the way to go to achieve the performance and fuel savings gain.

I go to Allison Park pretty often, you'll have to remind me which stations sell diesel. Didn't see many last time I checked.

sr5959 commented: February 21, 2013, 5:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

Lots of bad math in this thread.

First, there is an ongoing BMW Eco-credit of $3500 on the AH3. That brings the delta between the AH3 and a 335i to $3000 even. Second, you must consider the fact that the 335i has very limited allocations (especially Munich-builds), and as such are not typically discounted very much. In my experience, dealers are much more willing to negotiate on the AH3, and typically have allocations ready to go. With minimal negotiating skills, you should be able to bring that $3000 delta to $1500.

So... for $1500 what do you get?

New NBT Nav - this will likely change after August, when all F30s get the new Nav

Better mpg, on par with the 328i. I get 27mpg in the city, about 33 on the hwy

MUCH improved A.S.S. It is unnoticeable, vs. the typically obvious restart on the 335i, and especially the 328i

Free options - on my AH3, I got the following as $0 charge options when I ordered in Nov 2012:

Heated Steering Wheel

Speed Limit Info 8TH

Lane Departure Warning

Frontal Collision Warning

**** Now it appears only 8TH is free, check with your dealer****

More power/torque than 335i

What are the downsides? Not sure I've found any, yet. BTW, I got exactly $10K off the sticker price of my AH3. Great car, all around.

I feel very much in my right mind The $1500 premium means hardly anything in the grand scheme of things. And I love love love the new Nav! By my "butt dyno", the AH3 feels faster than the 335i. My previous car was a 2012 E92. The AH3 feels just as fast as the M3. It doesn't have the grip like an M3, but it can put down the power, for sure. The electric motor delivers terrific torque.

These sound like great reasons to go with the AH3, I will definitely look at it in 2 years when my lease is up. One question: is the handling affected much by the extra weight?

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 5:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5959

These sound like great reasons to go with the AH3, I will definitely look at it in 2 years when my lease is up. One question: is the handling affected much by the extra weight?

The extra weight is directly behind the rear axle, and low to the ground. It feels like driving a regular 335i, with a couple pieces of luggage in the trunk, i.e. only a bit noticeable if you are really paying attention. If there is any benefit, it's that the AH3 now has a true 50/50 weight distribution, compared to 52/48 I think for the 335i.

408Racer commented: February 21, 2013, 5:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

The extra weight is directly behind the rear axle, and low to the ground. It feels like driving a regular 335i, with a couple pieces of luggage in the trunk, i.e. only a bit noticeable if you are really paying attention. If there is any benefit, it's that the AH3 now has a true 50/50 weight distribution, compared to 52/48 I think for the 335i.

Not trying to be argumentative as I am truly curious...if it feels like having some luggage in the trunk, when is the extra grunt felt?

sr5959 commented: February 21, 2013, 5:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

The extra weight is directly behind the rear axle, and low to the ground. It feels like driving a regular 335i, with a couple pieces of luggage in the trunk, i.e. only a bit noticeable if you are really paying attention. If there is any benefit, it's that the AH3 now has a true 50/50 weight distribution, compared to 52/48 I think for the 335i.

Thanks Sams, is the trunk smaller due to the batteries and do you still have folding seats?

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 5:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 408Racer

Not trying to be argumentative as I am truly curious...if it feels like having some luggage in the trunk, when is the extra grunt felt?

Well, you've got an extra 35HP/35lb ft of torque on tap, so it feels like it overcomes the weight penalty, to me. The electric motor torque is instantaneous, and there is zero turbo lag because the torque from the electric motor is pulling you while the ICE spins up.

From a performance standpoint, I won't try to argue that the AH3 has some absolute inherent benefit over the 335i. The real benefit to me is when I'm idling, or creeping along in heavy traffic, I'm literally using zero gas. Sometimes I can go half a mile or more, without the motor ever spinning up.

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 5:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5959

Thanks Sams, is the trunk smaller due to the batteries and do you still have folding seats?

Yes, still have regular folding seats. The trunk is not really smaller. The trunk floor is raised about an inch or so from the standard car. But unless you had them side by side you would not notice any difference in the trunk volume.

iamwiz82 commented: February 21, 2013, 5:37 pm

Given the current lease rates and residuals, with the eco credit along with the other incentives on both, a loaded AH3 with an MSRP of $64270 would be $556/mo (rolling in fees) and a 335i in the exact same build would be $57220, or $55/mo. European Delivery for each.

408Racer commented: February 21, 2013, 5:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

Well, you've got an extra 35HP/35lb ft of torque on tap, so it feels like it overcomes the weight penalty, to me. The electric motor torque is instantaneous, and there is zero turbo lag because the torque from the electric motor is pulling you while the ICE spins up.

From a performance standpoint, I won't try to argue that the AH3 has some absolute inherent benefit over the 335i. The real benefit to me is when I'm idling, or creeping along in heavy traffic, I'm literally using zero gas. Sometimes I can go half a mile or more, without the motor ever spinning up.

That sounds delicious! I understand now. Thanks for the explanation.

sr5959 commented: February 21, 2013, 6:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

Yes, still have regular folding seats. The trunk is not really smaller. The trunk floor is raised about an inch or so from the standard car. But unless you had them side by side you would not notice any difference in the trunk volume.

Thank you, I think hybrids/full electrics like Tesla are becoming very interesting now, expecting a lot more progress/choices in this field in 2 years when I change.

Moatsy commented: February 21, 2013, 7:11 pm

Hybrids have along way to go, but with no foreseeable (affordable) battery technology that will allow 300 miles per trip... they seem to be the short term answer.

I drove a Hybrid3 as a loaner for a couple days recently and the electric torque was cool and overall it was fun to drive... would I buy one yet? Only if it was the only 3 available.

bmwesq commented: February 21, 2013, 7:42 pm

OK, so this thread has me pretty convinced on getting an AH3. I currently have on order a loaded 335i Sport, euro delivery, production date mid-march (for an April 2 delivery). I am going to sign purchase order this Saturday and can still make changes. One thing I didn't have was the DHP. I am now convinced that I should add that. Anyhow, back to AH....I was really bummed about not being able to get the new NBT Nav. It was really bothering me. That problem would be solved with AH. Extra HP and torque without sacrificing gas milage is a nice plus. Aluminum accents around the windows (like my old 330i had) also a plus. To be honest, the couple of extra MPG city driving is not a big deal to me, but I will take it. My dealer is looking into whether or not the AH currently comes with any $0 cost extra options as one poster suggested above. Even if there are no freebie options, the cost of the loaded AH is only about $500 more than the loaded 335i IF you factor in the cost savings over the life of a 1.9% loan (compared to 3.19%). Plus, I really think the "hybrid" will be a big selling point (to some future owner) when I go to sell, probably get more than $500 over what a 335i would bring. I have to think about it, but I am pretty convinced this is a no-brainer.

Axxlrod commented: February 21, 2013, 7:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamwiz82

Given the current lease rates and residuals, with the eco credit along with the other incentives on both, a loaded AH3 with an MSRP of $64270 would be $556/mo (rolling in fees) and a 335i in the exact same build would be $57220, or $55/mo. European Delivery for each.

I believe the residual for the AH3 is lower than it is for the non-hybrid 3ers.

Edit: Just checked. Yes, AH3 residuals are 3% lower. Bummer.

tturedraider commented: February 21, 2013, 8:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwesq

OK, so this thread has me pretty convinced on getting an AH3. I currently have on order a loaded 335i Sport, euro delivery, production date mid-march (for an April 2 delivery). I am going to sign purchase order this Saturday and can still make changes. One thing I didn't have was the DHP. I am now convinced that I should add that. Anyhow, back to AH....I was really bummed about not being able to get the new NBT Nav. It was really bothering me. That problem would be solved with AH. Extra HP and torque without sacrificing gas milage is a nice plus. Aluminum accents around the windows (like my old 330i had) also a plus. To be honest, the couple of extra MPG city driving is not a big deal to me, but I will take it. My dealer is looking into whether or not the AH currently comes with any $0 cost extra options as one poster suggested above. Even if there are no freebie options, the cost of the loaded AH is only about $500 more than the loaded 335i IF you factor in the cost savings over the life of a 1.9% loan (compared to 3.19%). Plus, I really think the "hybrid" will be a big selling point (to some future owner) when I go to sell, probably get more than $500 over what a 335i would bring. I have to think about it, but I am pretty convinced this is a no-brainer.

FYI - Pentagon FCU www.penfed.org currently is offering 1.49% for up to 60 months. Even if you need to use BMWFS financing to get certain incentives you could refinance with PenFed at the 1.49%. Anyone can join PenFed.

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 8:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5959

Thank you, I think hybrids/full electrics like Tesla are becoming very interesting now, expecting a lot more progress/choices in this field in 2 years when I change.

I could definitely see myself in a Tesla one day. Maybe when they have a second-gen Model S? Whenever the prices come down, and range goes up a bit, I'm in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwesq

OK, so this thread has me pretty convinced on getting an AH3. I currently have on order a loaded 335i Sport, euro delivery, production date mid-march (for an April 2 delivery). I am going to sign purchase order this Saturday and can still make changes. One thing I didn't have was the DHP. I am now convinced that I should add that. Anyhow, back to AH....I was really bummed about not being able to get the new NBT Nav. It was really bothering me. That problem would be solved with AH. Extra HP and torque without sacrificing gas milage is a nice plus. Aluminum accents around the windows (like my old 330i had) also a plus. To be honest, the couple of extra MPG city driving is not a big deal to me, but I will take it. My dealer is looking into whether or not the AH currently comes with any $0 cost extra options as one poster suggested above. Even if there are no freebie options, the cost of the loaded AH is only about $500 more than the loaded 335i IF you factor in the cost savings over the life of a 1.9% loan (compared to 3.19%). Plus, I really think the "hybrid" will be a big selling point (to some future owner) when I go to sell, probably get more than $500 over what a 335i would bring. I have to think about it, but I am pretty convinced this is a no-brainer.

You definitely better check with your CA. If you already have a pickup date, then they may not have an appropriate production number that will correspond with your existing date.

The $0 options I got were:

5AD Lane Departure Warning w/Forward Collision Warning

8TH Speed Limit Info

248 Heated Steering Wheel

For the first two, you had to get Nav + Driver Assistance package as a pre-requisite.

Also remember, the AH3 is what you make of it. If you put it in Sport mode and floor it all the time, you're gonna get 335i-type mileage. If you go easy on the gas in Eco Pro mode, you'll get 328i-like mileage, i.e. 25-28mpg in the city.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

FYI - Pentagon FCU www.penfed.org currently is offering 1.49% for up to 60 months. Even if you need to use BMWFS financing to get certain incentives you could refinance with PenFed at the 1.49%. Anyone can join PenFed.

This is what I'm doing. A couple more payments and I'll move the rest of my note to PenFed. Already did two cars with them, they are great.

SilverX3 commented: February 21, 2013, 8:37 pm

we call it "jump on the band wagon"

BM make Hybrid cos everyone makes hybrid

some research says no real advantage for hybrid as the cost of procuding batteries and disposing them is more than fuel saving in CO2 term

Mace14 commented: February 21, 2013, 11:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

Lots of bad math in this thread.

First, there is an ongoing BMW Eco-credit of $3500 on the AH3. That brings the delta between the AH3 and a 335i to $3000 even. Second, you must consider the fact that the 335i has very limited allocations (especially Munich-builds), and as such are not typically discounted very much. In my experience, dealers are much more willing to negotiate on the AH3, and typically have allocations ready to go. With minimal negotiating skills, you should be able to bring that $3000 delta to $1500.

So... for $1500 what do you get?

New NBT Nav - this will likely change after August, when all F30s get the new Nav

Better mpg, on par with the 328i. I get 27mpg in the city, about 33 on the hwy

MUCH improved A.S.S. It is unnoticeable, vs. the typically obvious restart on the 335i, and especially the 328i

Free options - on my AH3, I got the following as $0 charge options when I ordered in Nov 2012:

Heated Steering Wheel

Speed Limit Info 8TH

Lane Departure Warning

Frontal Collision Warning

**** Now it appears only 8TH is free, check with your dealer****

More power/torque than 335i

What are the downsides? Not sure I've found any, yet. BTW, I got exactly $10K off the sticker price of my AH3. Great car, all around.

I feel very much in my right mind The $1500 premium means hardly anything in the grand scheme of things. And I love love love the new Nav! By my "butt dyno", the AH3 feels faster than the 335i. My previous car was a 2012 E92. The AH3 feels just as fast as the M3. It doesn't have the grip like an M3, but it can put down the power, for sure. The electric motor delivers terrific torque.

Go back to the basic numbers. BMW builds a car that is heavier, slower, and more complicated than it's own non-hybrid. Your "butt dyno" is wrong. BMW's own site lists 0-60 as 5.2 sec vs 5.1 for the standard 335i. So, that extra 35hp is completely wasted pulling around an overweight 300lb butt which also has the advantage of hurting the handling. This is a car with no demonstrable advantages at all yet BMW tacks on a $6,500 premium. So, why the premium? Does anyone think that an electric motor and batteries cost that much?

Hummm, about those incentives. It's very, very rare for a brand new BMW offering to come out of the blocks with an immediate incentive program. The reason for the incentives is that it's overpriced and selling poorly because the car makes no sense to anyone that really looks at it. Does anyone really believe that BMW gives the incentives because they want to reward Americans for driving fuel efficient vehicles (as BMW claims?) The funny part is that even with all the incentives thrown in you still arrive at $1,500 more for a car that isn't as good as a standard 335i. Also, could it be that those incentives are the reason for the $6,500 premium over the standard 335i? If I overprice a car by $6,500 then discount it $5,000 have I really done you a favor? I can certainly see how $10,000 off of MSRP would be tempting and maybe even worth it even if the car isn't as good but seriously, who discounts a brand new model $10,000 if there isn't a problem? I also got $10,000 off of my 2011 M3 but the car was introduced three years earlier.

For those of you thinking about jumping on this band wagon, do you really want to spend even $1,500 more for a car that isn't as good? Would you pay even money for a car that isn't as good? As I said before, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?

Maybe it's just me but I personally would buy the better car for less money.

SamS commented: February 21, 2013, 11:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace14

Go back to the basic numbers. BMW builds a car that is heavier, slower, and more complicated than it's own non-hybrid. Your "butt dyno" is wrong. BMW's own site lists 0-60 as 5.2 sec vs 5.1 for the standard 335i. So, that extra 35hp is completely wasted pulling around an overweight 300lb butt which also has the advantage of hurting the handling.

LOL. You're really going to argue on an internet forum that for two cars spec'd at .1 second difference 0-60, one is "slower" than the other?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace14

This is a car with no demonstrable advantages at all yet BMW tacks on a $6,500 premium. So, why the premium? Does anyone think that an electric motor and batteries cost that much?

For the current time, the maximum premium over a 335i is $3000. The minimum delta is literally $0, depending on how you finance. Until that changes, you can stop mentioning the $6500, because it simply holds no relevance at this time.

Do I think the batteries and electric motor cost that much of a premium? Absolutely. The R&D alone was certainly millions. Divide that out however you'd like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace14

Hummm, about those incentives. It's very, very rare for a brand new BMW offering to come out of the blocks with an immediate incentive program. The reason for the incentives is that it's overpriced and selling poorly because the car makes no sense to anyone that really looks at it. Does anyone really believe that BMW gives the incentives because they want to reward Americans for driving fuel efficient vehicles (as BMW claims?) The funny part is that even with all the incentives thrown in you still arrive at $1,500 more for a car that isn't as good as a standard 335i. Also, could it be that those incentives are the reason for the $6,500 premium over the standard 335i? If I overprice a car by $6,500 then discount it $5,000 have I really done you a favor? I can certainly see how $10,000 off of MSRP would be tempting and maybe even worth it even if the car isn't as good but seriously, who discounts a brand new model $10,000 if there isn't a problem. I also got $10,000 off of my 2011 M3 but the car was introduced three years earlier.

For those of you thinking about jumping on this band wagon, do you really want to spend even $1,500 more for a car that isn't as good? Would you pay even money for a car that isn't as good? As I said before, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?

Explain to me again this "isn't as good" theory. Let's see... Better/newer navigation, more fuel efficient. Performance argument? Until you want to race me in a stock 335i, I'm gonna call it even. When did you even drive an AH3?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace14

Maybe it's just me but I personally would buy the better car for less money.

You mean like a 2011 E92 M3 for $8K MSRP less than a heavy-ass E93 M3, that's surely "faster" than your car?

ayu910 commented: February 22, 2013, 1:10 am

Very interesting discussion here. In the hybrid community the BMW approach actually is consider as "Power Hybrid". In short, "same fuel, more power". Instant tq delivery doesn't really reflect on paper, it need to be driven to experience the differences.

Some of up coming super cars (BMW i8, Porsche 918, Acura NSX, Lexus LF-C, ect) will be base on similar hybrid platform, so clearly this is the proper direction and BMW is little ahead of everyone by offering "Power Hybrid" in the whole lineup.

tankton commented: February 22, 2013, 1:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayu910

Very interesting discussion here. In the hybrid community the BMW approach actually is consider as "Power Hybrid". In short, "same fuel, more power". Instant tq delivery doesn't really reflect on paper, it need to be driven to experience the differences.

Some of up coming super cars (BMW i8, Porsche 918, Acura NSX, Lexus LF-C, ect) will be base on similar hybrid platform, so clearly this is the proper direction and BMW is little ahead of everyone by offering "Power Hybrid" in the whole lineup.

Well, to be really silly, Honda did try that with one of the older Accords, a few years back. Tack a electric motor to a Honda V6, make it faster, and only slightly more fuel efficient. However, it never sold in any respectable numbers, and was dropped after the 7th generation of Accords (about early-mid 2000s to mid-late 2000s).

Maybe BMW can pull it off, however, Lexus does offer the GSh, which (from what I've read) accounts for a majority of Lexus GS sales in most non-US markets... and it offers similar HP. It's torque is harder to calculate, since it's primary drive and primary electric are regulated by a second electric motor-based planetary CVT. Though it's a much bigger and heavier car than any 3.

ayu910 commented: February 22, 2013, 1:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankton

Well, to be really silly, Honda did try that with one of the older Accords, a few years back. Tack a electric motor to a Honda V6, make it faster, and only slightly more fuel efficient. However, it never sold in any respectable numbers, and was dropped after the 7th generation of Accords (about early-mid 2000s to mid-late 2000s).

Maybe BMW can pull it off, however, Lexus does offer the GSh, which (from what I've read) accounts for a majority of Lexus GS sales in most non-US markets... and it offers similar HP. It's torque is harder to calculate, since it's primary drive and primary electric are regulated by a second electric motor-based planetary CVT. Though it's a much bigger and heavier car than any 3.

The Honda and Lexus mentioned above uses older "Ni-MH" battery technology which has limitation on weight and discharge current. Sorry, no can't do instant tq delivery with those battery. Besides, use of CVT clearly is in the interest of MPG not power so IMO Honda and Lexus with those two cars are not intended to setup as "Power Hybrid" platform.

BMW clearly understand their objective and the more advanced "Li-ion" battery is a must to achieve "Power Hybrid" platform for instant tq delivery due to ability of discharge large current at once.

Mace14 commented: February 22, 2013, 7:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

LOL. You're really going to argue on an internet forum that for two cars spec'd at .1 second difference 0-60, one is "slower" than the other?

Of course. When you're going to argue that 35hp additional hp is a selling point when it's more than wasted by the 300lbs of weight. So, again, what's the point? Why not add 100 hp and 900lbs of weight? It'll be the same speed but weigh even more!

Quote:

For the current time, the maximum premium over a 335i is $3000. The minimum delta is literally $0, depending on how you finance. Until that changes, you can stop mentioning the $6500, because it simply holds no relevance at this time.

OK, I get it, you got a great deal and the tradeoff was worth it to you and, at $10k off you also paid much much less that the great majority. But the simple fact of the matter is that the car makes no sense and that's why they're offering incentives to reduce the delta to zero. My contention is that BMW is simply trading on the "Eco" nonsense and expecting people to pay a premium for a hybrid because everyone just "knows" a hybrid saves gas which, in this case, is as close to being untrue as it can get. You don't think that a .1 sec speed difference matters. I agree, but you should also agree that 2mpg city is pretty close to ridiculous given all the technology and weight especially when the absolute most you're going to see from a gas savings perspective is a puny $50 a year at best.

Quote:

Explain to me again this "isn't as good" theory. Let's see... Better/newer navigation, more fuel efficient. Performance argument? Until you want to race me in a stock 335i, I'm gonna call it even. When did you even drive an AH3?

Easy. The theory is that if one car isn't as good as another it "isn't as good." Updated navigation? That's what you're going with? More fuel efficient? You're dismissing the extra cost of the car but are impressed with at most a $50 savings over a year? As for performance, you're the one that said it was faster, it isn't. I'm the one that's saying you're hauling around 300lb for absolutely no benefit and yes, the extra weight affects handling so yes, given equal drivers you'd lose on a track to a stock 335i. Wanna make a bet as to how many hybrids are being bought for the track? If you're right about the performance advantages there will be a ton (whoops, there's that weight thing again) on the track but I'll be going with just about zero.

Quote:

You mean like a 2011 E92 M3 for $8K MSRP less than a heavy-ass E93 M3, that's surely "faster" than your car?

You mean like a heavy-ass E93 M3 with a convertible top? Thank you, you made my arguement for me. Yes, I have a fat-ass but I at least recognize my car weighs more than the coupe and don't pretend it performs as well (or better) BUT at least I got something in return for the extra weight! I drive about eight months out of the year with my top down in return. Also, I know what that extra 300lbs does to the handling as I've also owned a 335i and driven the M3 Coupe on the track but I made the tradeoff knowing exactly what I was getting, a fundamental change in the driving experience. What this hybrid is is 300lbs of extra weight for a slightly improved nav system and a feel good eco badge. Maybe sometime in the future BMW will figure out how to make a cost and weight effective hybrid that's a better car than it's non-hybrid contemporaries but until then Happy Eco navigating!

SamS commented: February 22, 2013, 7:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mace14

You mean like a heavy-ass E93 M3 with a convertible top? Thank you, you made my arguement for me. I at least recognize my car weighs 300lbs more than the coupe and doesn't perform quite as well BUT at least I got something in return for the extra weight! I drive about eight months out of the year with my top down in return. Also, I know what that extra 300lbs does to the handling as I've also owned a 335i and driven the M3 Coupe on the track but I made the tradeoff knowing exactly what I was getting, a fundamental change in the driving experience. What this hybrid is is 300lbs of extra weight for a slightly improved nav system and a feel good eco badge. Maybe sometime in the future BMW will figure this out how to make a hybrid a better car than it's non-hybrid contemporaries but until then Happy Eco navigating!

So this is what it boils down to: You paid $8K more for a heavier, slower, worse-handling M3. All for the sake of enjoying the top down for 8 months out of the year. I personally did not make that choice (went with E92 M3), but I can respect that is the driving experience you wanted. I certainly wouldn't come around here arguing how foolish (out-of-your-right-mind) you are.

So I pay $1500 more for a heavier, slower(?), worse-handling 335i. All for the sake of taking a short trip using zero gas, enjoying a more advanced iDrive, etc. And I do enjoy my car as much as you enjoy your E93 M3.

You can pay more for a compromised car, that you personally get satisfaction out of, but I cannot? A rhetorical question, but it does seem very strange to me you can start such a thread as this, considering the car you personally drive.

shicobico commented: February 22, 2013, 8:18 am

Uh ooh. Here come the defensive AH owner posts. SMH

shicobico commented: February 22, 2013, 8:19 am

Nothing says BMW performance like a hybrid.

bluelectron commented: February 22, 2013, 9:11 am

Everyone knows that the AH3 is not a track car. Besides if you wanted a track car would you not buy the slower to 60, 335i with MT instead of the one with an AT.

The $3500 so called Eco credit cuts down the difference in base price between the 335i and AH3 to 6.9%. The percent price difference between the 2011 335i and 355d was 6.5%. The combined fuel economies of the 2011 335d and 2013 AH3 are also very close at 29.5 and 29 mpgs respectively. Besides the 355d came with 17" wheels standard, so that slightly higher mpgs is really nothing great. Yes, we can also compare the 0-60 times and so and so forth, but all of that is irrelevant now because the 355d is obsolete.

In conclusion BMW made a non track hybrid car that is very very close in performance to the 355i. They have made an excellent replacement for the 335d in the US market where diesel is not only more expensive but also hard to find. Also, the EPA mileage test is not really valid for the AH3 because of the integration between the GPS and the cars computer. Because of this feature I think BMW should make GPS standard on all AH vehicles.

everettpa1 commented: February 22, 2013, 10:01 am

I would rather ride a horse than drive a stupid Hybrid. Another example of BMW having to build a car that nobody wants. If BMW wasn't forced into this efficient dynamics crap because of the "bandwagon" mindset and CAFE, they would not have a Hybrid in the lineup. You buy a BMW and worry about saving gas. Yeah right, that's what we all care about. Give me a break.

BMW announced a new incentive for the AH3. You get your picture taken with Uncle Barry and his manwife Michelle. Framed too.

bluelectron commented: February 22, 2013, 10:58 am

Quote:

BMW announced a new incentive for the AH3. You get your picture taken with Uncle Barry and his manwife Michelle. Framed too.

Wow! That was the best argument against the AH3 we have seen so far. Can come from only from someone who flunked both Physics 101 and Economics 101. Let me elaborate.

Physics 101: Efficiency is not just about gas mileage, it is about going further and faster. Take a look at motorsport history and you will see that every development in aerodybanics, fuel injection, gear box improvement, etc. do not just give higher top speed and better handling, it also gives better fuel economy. Because the longer you stay out on the track the lesser time you are wasting in the pits refueling.

Economics 101: Almost everyone would agree that the AH3 is better replacement to the 335d. The 335d was never a competitor for the 335i but everyone would agree that the AH3 is very close to the 335i.

chasfh commented: February 22, 2013, 10:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

I would rather ride a horse than drive a stupid Hybrid. Another example of BMW having to build a car that nobody wants. If BMW wasn't forced into this efficient dynamics crap because of the "bandwagon" mindset and CAFE, they would not have a Hybrid in the lineup. You buy a BMW and worry about saving gas. Yeah right, that's what we all care about. Give me a break.

BMW announced a new incentive for the AH3. You get your picture taken with Uncle Barry and his manwife Michelle. Framed too.

Well. This was uncalled for.

everettpa1 commented: February 22, 2013, 11:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluelectron

Wow! That was the best argument against the AH3 we have seen so far. Can come from only from someone who flunked both Physics 101 and Economics 101. Let me elaborate.

Physics 101: Efficiency is not just about gas mileage, it is about going further and faster. Take a look at motorsport history and you will see that every development in aerodybanics, fuel injection, gear box improvement, etc. do not just give higher top speed and better handling, it also gives better fuel economy. Because the longer you stay out on the track the lesser time you are wasting in the pits refueling.

Economics 101: Almost everyone would agree that the AH3 is better replacement to the 335d. The 335d was never a competitor for the 335i but everyone would agree that the AH3 is very close to the 335i.

I wish I knew what you saying here. I think you meant well. Maybe rewrite it and try again.

Hybrids make sense if you buy one that is totally focused on fuel savings and nothing else. Prius etcetera.

But when hybrids try to play in the performance game, they are compromised from the start. Adding weight and adding HP to basically get to the same point. Doesn't make sense. And without these incentives, the price gap is too large to be made up by the marginal MPG savings.

So with the AH you get no better performance, marginal fuel savings, and you pay more. That makes a lot of sense, it really does. I see why you bought it.

bluelectron commented: February 22, 2013, 1:09 pm

No sir, this is where you are wrong. I didn't buy the AH3 because it gives marginally better mileage but because it was less expensive than a similarly equipped 335i. The 1.9% financing as opposed the 3.19% makes a big difference over the period of the loan. You may get better financing but then you lose the $1000 BMW rebate.

There is no question that the car is overpriced without the rebates and credits. That is why I said Nav should be standard in this car. I think BMW were smart to give the eco credit, rebate and lower financing rate on the AH3. They wanted more cars on the street so owners would talk about it and spread the word. Are we not talking about it now. Btw the AH3's final drive ratio has been lengthened to give better gas mileage. If not it would have crushed the 335i or maybe even the M3 in the 0-60 times.

ayu910 commented: February 22, 2013, 1:31 pm

Good point Bluelectron on the AH3 final drive ratio. Just for the record, per 13 AH7 improved 0-60 form 5.5sec(750i) to 4.6sec. Almost 1sec improvmemt is HUGE on a 4800lbs car, not to mention it was done with extra 200lbs of weight.

Imagine moving forword with all the new battery technology is coming up like plastic Li-Ion that can reduce the weight in half, pair that system on a F10 M5 or F30 M3 that can possibly improve 0-60 to the low 3sec or below. AH from performace aspect does have a lot of potential moving forward.

So, with the Hybrid you get an extra two mpg in the city, the same mpg on the highway, and a measly 35 more HP to haul around the extra 300lb of weight. Oh, and you get all that for a minor premium of $6,500.

Let's break down the numbers: The owner drives 15,000 miles per year and that's all in the city (best case). Assume that he really saves 2 mile/gallon (no guarantee that'll happen) and that premium unleaded costs $4.50/gallon. That means he would save a whopping $52 dollars a year with this car. Dividing the extra $6,500 cost of the car (not including taxes) he would have to drive the car for 27 years and 405,000 miles to recoup his money. If he drives only 10,000 per year he'd have to drive it 41 years. Yeah, but the price of gas is going up! Sure it is. To recoup $6,500 in the typical 3 year/15,000 mile average ownership time gas would have to go up to $41.65 per gallon.

Why, for God's sake, would BMW sell this car and, more to the point, why would anyone in their right mind buy it?

Assume gas going up in a logarithmic fashion to $8/gallon in 4 years, and you'll see why...we'll hit $5-6 this summer alone (we're at $4.50 in the northeast and it's not even memorial day yet!)

in fact, the owners get better mpg. i didn't get one because i wanted the PPK.

suneil commented: February 22, 2013, 2:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

I would rather ride a horse than drive a stupid Hybrid. Another example of BMW having to build a car that nobody wants. If BMW wasn't forced into this efficient dynamics crap because of the "bandwagon" mindset and CAFE, they would not have a Hybrid in the lineup. You buy a BMW and worry about saving gas. Yeah right, that's what we all care about. Give me a break.

BMW announced a new incentive for the AH3. You get your picture taken with Uncle Barry and his manwife Michelle. Framed too.

Rage much?
Love these raging republicans on this board...

bmwesq commented: February 22, 2013, 4:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluelectron

The 1.9% financing as opposed the 3.19% makes a big difference over the period of the loan. You may get better financing but then you lose the $1000 BMW rebate.

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you get the 3500 eco-credit, the $1000 lease/finance credit (just like 335i), and as an added incentive you get lower 1.9% financing rate (instead of 3.19 on the 335i). If this is true, then yes, the numbers do begin to make the AH worth considering. Taking way that $1000 finance credit (so that you can get a lower finance rate) would be a deal buster for me on the AH. As has already been discussed, the 1.9% financing is nice, but any top tier credit worthy individual can get a 1.5 -2.0% rate through a bank or credit union.

I am still really wondering if there is a way to get some 0 cost options, as SamS indicated earlier. That would definitly seal the deal for me!

SamS commented: February 22, 2013, 4:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwesq

I am still really wondering if there is a way to get some 0 cost options, as SamS indicated earlier. That would definitly seal the deal for me!

You can see the $0 option for Speed Limit info on the Build Your Own configurator, under Options->Safety Options. You definitely must have Navigation (or Tech Package) as well as Driver Assistance option selected to get this for $0.

You'll have to check with your CA to confirm if both 5AD Lane Departure Warning w/Forward Collision Warning and 248 Heated Steering Wheel still show up as $0 when they do the actual build/order. Those used to show up as $0 on the website configurator, but they dropped off after January 2nd.

Mace14 commented: February 22, 2013, 7:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by suneil

Assume gas going up in a logarithmic fashion to $8/gallon in 4 years, and you'll see why...we'll hit $5-6 this summer alone (we're at $4.50 in the northeast and it's not even memorial day yet!).

Even at $8 a gallon you would still never recoup the additional cost of a hybrid (again, that's based just on BMW's advertised MSRP and mileage numbers). I did look at how high the price would have to go to recoup the cost in a reasonable period of time, that's how I arrived at the $41.65/gallon price. If price right now was $41.65/gal you would just break even after 3 years and 45,000 miles but $41.65 is hardly a realistic proposition in even our worst nightmares. If it ever went that high the economy would be in the worst depression ever seen if only because costs that high would decimate our transportation system and luxury sports cars would be the least of our worries.

letuz commented: February 22, 2013, 8:31 pm

Sounds like MACE is pretty bitter he went with the e93 m3 instead of the e92 or ah3...

If you lease the ah3 (which you should, given the incentives) you'll end up paying about the same as a 335i and you get the fastest, most powerful, and most exclusive production 3 series ever made.

It also has newer tech than the 335i (Nav), and fuel economy on par or better than that of a 328... What's not to like? The 300 lb argument isn't a very good one when you consider the fact that one or two passengers = 300lb.... It's more than offset by the additional horses and instantaneous torque/eboost.

Don't knock this car until you drive it.

SamS commented: February 22, 2013, 9:28 pm

Just so we have some facts to chew on... The EPA says (at current gas prices), you'd save $1000 in fuel costs over 5 years, 335i vs. AH3:

Assume you keep the car 5 years, and you're able to bring the delta between the two cars to $1000, then it's break-even. Gas price goes up, you come out ahead.

Forget the number rationale... maybe some people just like the ability to save 250gal of fuel over the course of their ownership period?

cblandin commented: February 22, 2013, 11:23 pm

As a guy who sold his M5 to buy an electric car (Volt) I can tell you guys the electric driving experience is compelling, and I'm the last guy who I thought would be saying that. Sure, the gas mileage is a perk, but it was the electric drive that won me over.

raphen325i commented: February 23, 2013, 3:40 am

--Market share?
--"Ooooo look at me in my hybrid I'm saving the world, go green!" Yes but do you not realize batteries have a limited lifespan and can be horrendously toxic, not to mention the mountain top mining that needs to go on to acquire such resources ?
It's really not revolutionary, how bout a solar panel roof?

enigma commented: February 23, 2013, 5:24 am

This thread is toxic and full of misinformation.

This takes the cake for having the most amount of misinformation. AH3 is the fastest, most powerful and most exclusive production 3? Really? I won't even get to the rest...

The mods should just close this thread down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fzutel

If you lease the ah3 (which you should, given the incentives) you'll end up paying about the same as a 335i and you get the fastest, most powerful, and most exclusive production 3 series ever made.

It also has newer tech than the 335i (Nav), and fuel economy on par or better than that of a 328... What's not to like? The 300 lb argument isn't a very good one when you consider the fact that one or two passengers = 300lb.... It's more than offset by the additional horses and instantaneous torque/eboost.

Don't knock this car until you drive it.

Kar Don commented: February 23, 2013, 7:22 am

My reason for the AH cars is the incredible lease incentives BMW gives. The other benefit is the start stop system actually is smooth and transparent vs the regular gas cars. Just getting the new nav system on the f30 was worth it alone.

letuz commented: February 23, 2013, 8:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by enigma

This thread is toxic and full of misinformation.

This takes the cake for having the most amount of misinformation. AH3 is the fastest, most powerful and most exclusive production 3? Really? I won't even get to the rest...

The mods should just close this thread down.

It REALLY is though... You must keep in mind that the M3 is considered part of the "m series," check it out on BMWs website and the board breakdown on this forum.

I think it's hard to argue with the exclusivity part: not many people have one! (probably because they are misinformed or haven't driven one- I.e. the pricing argument in light of incentives, etc). The power claim is a shoe in as well, I don't recall any other production 3 series here in the US with more hp/tq (save the 335d with more tq, but less hp) Just about every single professional review (and amateur review from those who own the cars posted on this forum) support the notion that the car accelerates faster than any other production 3, though maybe that point could be argued based on driving conditions/driver skill...

Look, I don't own an ah3- in fact quote the opposite, I am moving from a 550 to an e92 M... but I certainly have an open mind about these things. It's an interesting piece of engineering and should be admired for what it is: an extremely capable road car.

SamS commented: February 23, 2013, 10:02 am

I don't mean this to sound arrogant, but I'm probably the only person in the US who has actually owned both a current M3, as well as an AH3. So, I'm very familiar with the capabilities of both. In any street situation, the AH3 (in Sport Mode + DHP) is just as fast as an M3. The M3 wallops the AH3 in the sound department, as well as being 2+ notches up when it comes to road handling/grip. The trade-off being exactly 14mpg vs. 28mpg.

jacar commented: February 23, 2013, 12:07 pm

"in the sound department"-are you referring to a engine sound, road noise or the stereo system?
My AH3 should arrive this week. In the extended test drive I had of the car before ordering I felt it was the best car I had ever driven (Better in all ways than my 2010 328i).

SamS commented: February 23, 2013, 12:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacar

"in the sound department"-are you referring to a engine sound, road noise or the stereo system?
My AH3 should arrive this week. In the extended test drive I had of the car before ordering I felt it was the best car I had ever driven (Better in all ways than my 2010 328i).

I mean the induction/exhaust noise. The M3 is simply intoxicating. I had the Enhanced Premium Sound in my M3, and have the HK in the AH3. The EPS system in the M3 is better, but not by much.

enigma commented: February 23, 2013, 7:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fzutel

It REALLY is though... You must keep in mind that the M3 is considered part of the "m series," check it out on BMWs website and the board breakdown on this forum.

I think it's hard to argue with the exclusivity part: not many people have one! (probably because they are misinformed or haven't driven one- I.e. the pricing argument in light of incentives, etc). The power claim is a shoe in as well, I don't recall any other production 3 series here in the US with more hp/tq (save the 335d with more tq, but less hp) Just about every single professional review (and amateur review from those who own the cars posted on this forum) support the notion that the car accelerates faster than any other production 3, though maybe that point could be argued based on driving conditions/driver skill...

Look, I don't own an ah3- in fact quote the opposite, I am moving from a 550 to an e92 M... but I certainly have an open mind about these things. It's an interesting piece of engineering and should be admired for what it is: an extremely capable road car.

Umm... forget about the M3. There are a number of 3-series cars will out-accelerate AH3: 335is, 335i.

If you want to argue that exclusive means unpopular, I will give you that much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

I don't mean this to sound arrogant, but I'm probably the only person in the US who has actually owned both a current M3, as well as an AH3. So, I'm very familiar with the capabilities of both. In any street situation, the AH3 (in Sport Mode + DHP) is just as fast as an M3. The M3 wallops the AH3 in the sound department, as well as being 2+ notches up when it comes to road handling/grip. The trade-off being exactly 14mpg vs. 28mpg.

If you are talking about driving legally in public roads, you can say the same thing about 328i. In fact, in certain conditions, the lighter 328i will out-handle 335i (and certainly out-handle AH3). I'll agree to disagree on the merits of DHP as I really don't want to get into an endless argument on its benefits (or lack thereof).

I am glad you found a car that you liked, and I respect your decision. However, my point here is that the thread has become toxic and more about personal attacks (e.g. going after what people drive or political views) than actual merits of the AH3.

CALWATERBOY commented: February 23, 2013, 8:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nepal

BMW's hybrid is not that of Toyota's. The purpose of Toyota's hybrid is to save gas at the sacrifice of performance. BMW's hybrid is to improve the performance while still maintain the gas mileage.Active 3 has better 0-60 than 335.
Totally two different concepts and approaches.
Whether this performance improvement justify the cost is everyone's take.

I did extended test drives of an AH3 and a 335 x drive today. To me, both are great, well built, very fast cars. Personally, I could not feel much difference with: the extra weight in the back of the AH3 or the extra power from the battery (which some say helps mask the turbo engine lag). But what the heck do I know, my daily drive is a Chevy Tahoe and I haven't driven a bimmer since we sold my wife's e90 4 years ago. I am sure there are noticeable differences to someone who is more sensitive to specifac aspects of these cars. I wasn't able to compare the A.S.S, as it was disabled in the x-drive (which is the first thing I will have my dealer do to my car)

I am pretty sure I will go with the non hybrid for a couple of reasons. First, quite frankly, I could care less about the slighly better fuel economy. Dont get me wrong, I like better gas milage, I like saving money, but if I was worried about saving a couple of bucks each week in gas money I would not be purchasing a 300 hp car. Second, I must admit, while I trust that BMW has engeered a quality hybrid vehicle, I am not sure that the Germans excel in this area of technology and I am a bit concerned that this is uncharted territory for BMW. Not that I know a ton about cars, but the hybrid technology seems to add a huge dynamic to this car and I can't help but wonder if the added technology will not just be one more thing that could go wrong with the car. When it came down to it, the main reason why I was leaning toward the AH was the new Nav. After thinking long and hard about it, I realized that my desire to have an updated Nav system was not proper justification to getting an AH3. Plus, I really think I will end up getting x drive. I live in Michigan and that will be a good selling point when I go to sell. Plus, with the x drive I can get 0-60 in 4.8 sec. I don't think that I could deal with getting 0-60 in 5.2 as in the AH3 (just kidding about that one, ha).

SamS commented: February 23, 2013, 9:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by enigma

If you are talking about driving legally in public roads, you can say the same thing about 328i. In fact, in certain conditions, the lighter 328i will out-handle 335i (and certainly out-handle AH3). I'll agree to disagree on the merits of DHP as I really don't want to get into an endless argument on its benefits (or lack thereof).

I am glad you found a car that you liked, and I respect your decision. However, my point here is that the thread has become toxic and more about personal attacks (e.g. going after what people drive or political views) than actual merits of the AH3.

I had a 328i as a loaner for a solid day, and it was not as fast on the streets as a 335i/AH3/M3. Sure, a reasonably spirited car, but not one that makes you say "wow" when you floor it on an open stretch.

Agreed.. personal attacks are uncalled for, and one would hope this thread is more about learning from owners, or potential buyers.

I did extended test drives of an AH3 and a 335 x drive today. To me, both are great, well built, very fast cars. Personally, I could not feel much difference with: the extra weight in the back of the AH3 or the extra power from the battery (which some say helps mask the turbo engine lag). But what the heck do I know, my daily drive is a Chevy Tahoe and I haven't driven a bimmer since we sold my wife's e90 4 years ago. I am sure there are noticeable differences to someone who is more sensitive to specifac aspects of these cars. I wasn't able to compare the A.S.S, as it was disabled in the x-drive (which is the first thing I will have my dealer do to my car)

I am pretty sure I will go with the non hybrid for a couple of reasons. First, quite frankly, I could care less about the slighly better fuel economy. Dont get me wrong, I like better gas milage, I like saving money, but if I was worried about saving a couple of bucks each week in gas money I would not be purchasing a 300 hp car. Second, I must admit, while I trust that BMW has engeered a quality hybrid vehicle, I am not sure that the Germans excel in this area of technology and I am a bit concerned that this is uncharted territory for BMW. Not that I know a ton about cars, but the hybrid technology seems to add a huge dynamic to this car and I can't help but wonder if the added technology will not just be one more thing that could go wrong with the car. When it came down to it, the main reason why I was leaning toward the AH was the new Nav. After thinking long and hard about it, I realized that my desire to have an updated Nav system was not proper justification to getting an AH3. Plus, I really think I will end up getting x drive. I live in Michigan and that will be a good selling point when I go to sell. Plus, with the x drive I can get 0-60 in 4.8 sec. I don't think that I could deal with getting 0-60 in 5.2 as in the AH3 (just kidding about that one, ha).

No doubt, the AH3 is not for everyone, especially if xDrive is something you should reasonably consider. Not an issue here in Texas of course. And you are certainly correct... one is taking a bit of risk investing $50K+ in hybrid technology from a company with relatively little experience. But some people (including myself, a bit) actually enjoy that. Just like the owners of the Volt, Tesla, etc. Being a consumer for cutting edge tech is not for everyone of course. But, someone has to do it... so we can ultimately have kick-ass BMW hybrids in <10 years, that weigh less than traditional cars while delivering more power and better performance.

If you were not the type that bought the very first generation VHS player/HDTV/DVD player, then I can see why the AH3 may not be as appealing as a 335i

EDF30 commented: February 23, 2013, 10:17 pm

I get nothing from that link.

Yep, that website will not save a comparison, if you go to http://www.automobile-catalog.com clic on browse models top right, select BMW and then scroll down you can select various F30 models including AH3 328 AND 335, make sure you select US version steptronic for each model and hit compare then you will see a lot of specs and stats for all three cars.

PS Sams you have exhibited the patience of Job explaining AH3 benefits and features in various threads, I appreciate it. |

thumper_330 commented: February 24, 2013, 12:04 pm

I will say that when my lease is up on my 135i next year, the ActiveHybrid 3 is on my short list and may be one of the few reasons I'll pick a 3 series over a 4 (unless there's an AH4... now that'd be something). I am a natural early adopter though, and the technology and goal of the AH3 actually interests me greatly. It's actually the only 3 series that has caught my attention since the introduction of the F30. While I like them, there's nothing really compelling in the range for me... except the AH3.

I look forward to testing one. As soon as one of my local dealers has one to test!

ayu910 commented: February 25, 2013, 2:19 am

SamS, hats off to you for providing actual AH3 experience and in effort to explain the objective of BMW ActiveHybrid for the Bimmerfest community.

IMO, the word "Hybrid" has been hijacked by Japanese manufacture's for too long and most of consumer's are brainwashed to believe the only valuable intent should be in the interest of MPG. Hybrid is simply an method to store wasted energy in a battery then later can be use as motion assistant if needed. Perhaps BMW should name the AH differently like KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems) which is how Formula 1 reference to a battery assisted system.

SamS commented: February 25, 2013, 8:15 am

Thanks gents.

On paper, and even on test drives, it is difficult to get a grasp on what this car is all about. Personally, I was expecting a bit more ability to "drive on battery", before I actually lived with the car. In other words, before I owned the car, I expected to get up in the morning, jump in the car and cruise a mile down the street without the motor starting at all. This does not happen, mainly because the car is cold and (typically) because the battery is fairly discharged. However, if you have been out driving for a half hour or so, then you can certainly get back into the car and put around on pure battery power at speeds 0-20mph. With aggressive throttle, the ICE will of course kick back on.

If you're reading this thread and already hate the ActiveHybrid cars, then nothing that anyone writes here will convince you that it's anything other than a wasteful, expensive POS.

However, if you're intrigued by the following things, then it's definitely worth a second look:

Appreciate the ability to sit at long lights/lines in the car, without the motor coming on.

Like being able to cruise around at parking lots speeds without ever using a drop of gas.

Hate the normally abrasive F30 integration of A.S.S., but still appreciate the gas-saving potential

Appreciate that the motor seamlessly cuts off when coasting or when you let off the throttle

Enjoy the speed and grunt of the 335i, and also don't mind a bit more weight in the rear to give it true 50/50 weight distribution.

Like getting 328i mpg with 335i performance.

Are interested in the new iDrive integration, and don't want to wait until September 2013 for its appearance on all US F30s.

everettpa1 commented: February 25, 2013, 8:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

Thanks gents.

On paper, and even on test drives, it is difficult to get a grasp on what this car is all about. Personally, I was expecting a bit more ability to "drive on battery", before I actually lived with the car. In other words, before I owned the car, I expected to get up in the morning, jump in the car and cruise a mile down the street without the motor starting at all. This does not happen, mainly because the car is cold and (typically) because the battery is fairly discharged. However, if you have been out driving for a half hour or so, then you can certainly get back into the car and put around on pure battery power at speeds 0-20mph. With aggressive throttle, the ICE will of course kick back on.

If you're reading this thread and already hate the ActiveHybrid cars, then nothing that anyone writes here will convince you that it's anything other than a wasteful, expensive POS.

However, if you're intrigued by the following things, then it's definitely worth a second look:

Appreciate the ability to sit at long lights/lines in the car, without the motor coming on.

Like being able to cruise around at parking lots speeds without ever using a drop of gas.

Hate the normally abrasive F30 integration of A.S.S., but still appreciate the gas-saving potential

Appreciate that the motor seamlessly cuts off when coasting or when you let off the throttle

Enjoy the speed and grunt of the 335i, and also don't mind a bit more weight in the rear to give it true 50/50 weight distribution.

Like getting 328i mpg with 335i performance.

Are interested in the new iDrive integration, and don't want to wait until September 2013 for its appearance on all US F30s.

Those things aren't real important to me. Bottom line is you get a little better gas mileage in a heavier car that without massive incentives is much more expensive and will never cost justify itself. I don't get it but don't want to rain on anybody's parade.

SamS commented: February 25, 2013, 9:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

Those things aren't real important to me. Bottom line is you get a little better gas mileage in a heavier car that without massive incentives is much more expensive and will never cost justify itself. I don't get it but don't want to rain on anybody's parade.

We've already seen several examples where the better financing (1.9% vs. 3.9%) and negotiating take the "cost justify" argument down to literally $0. You guys can pick back up this argument in full force when all the incentives dry up

Personally, I get so annoyed at the A.S.S. on the non-hybrid cars, that I'd pay a few hundred dollars on a normal F30 just to have a smoother (a la AH3) implementation, while still reaping the benefits. I dunno how you guys deal with that rough restart

everettpa1 commented: February 25, 2013, 9:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

We've already seen several examples where the better financing (1.9% vs. 3.9%) and negotiating take the "cost justify" argument down to literally $0. You guys can pick back up this argument in full force when all the incentives dry up

Personally, I get so annoyed at the A.S.S. on the non-hybrid cars, that I'd pay a few hundred dollars on a normal F30 just to have a smoother (a la AH3) implementation, while still reaping the benefits. I dunno how you guys deal with that rough restart

I turn it off every time. This car is like starting up a spaceship. Hit start, then hit mode 3 times to sport +, turn on auto wipers, turn off ASS, turn on heated steering wheel, turn on seat heater. As posted already, I wish ASS, wipers, and mode retain the last setting. Where's the efficient dynamics with all of that?

suneil commented: February 25, 2013, 10:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

I turn it off every time. This car is like starting up a spaceship. Hit start, then hit mode 3 times to sport +, turn on auto wipers, turn off ASS, turn on heated steering wheel, turn on seat heater. As posted already, I wish ASS, wipers, and mode retain the last setting. Where's the efficient dynamics with all of that?

I'm sure you can get that coded....give it a year for coders to sort out.

sunny5280 commented: February 25, 2013, 12:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

I turn it off every time. This car is like starting up a spaceship. Hit start, then hit mode 3 times to sport +, turn on auto wipers, turn off ASS, turn on heated steering wheel, turn on seat heater. As posted already, I wish ASS, wipers, and mode retain the last setting. Where's the efficient dynamics with all of that?

Wasn't there a software update which retained the last setting for ASS? Also, on my E70 X5 and E90 330xi the heated seats retained their last settings for a short period of time to facilititate quick stops. The heated steering wheel does not. I realize that's probably not what you meant but thought I would point it out if you weren't aware.

It's my opinion not having the last settings for wipers, heated seats (long duration), and steering wheel (long duration) is reasonable given the possibility you won't need them the next time you drive. I do think the suspension should retain the last setting and not doing so is a mistake (probably more about fuel economy).

everettpa1 commented: February 25, 2013, 12:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny5280

Wasn't there a software update which retained the last setting for ASS? Also, on my E70 X5 and E90 330xi the heated seats retained their last settings for a short period of time to facilititate quick stops. The heated steering wheel does not. I realize that's probably not what you meant but thought I would point it out if you weren't aware.

It's my opinion not having the last settings for wipers, heated seats (long duration), and steering wheel (long duration) is reasonable given the possibility you won't need them the next time you drive. I do think the suspension should retain the last setting and not doing so is a mistake (probably more about fuel economy).

I would like the MSA to go to sport + all the time (or last setting when turned off), ASS off all the time, and auto wipers turned on all the time.

I agree that I don't want the heat to default. I can turn those on as needed. The car does put the seat and wheel heat back on after a short stop. I like that.

I'm taking the car to the dealer on Wed to get this reprogrammed.

Halfpasthuman commented: February 26, 2013, 10:09 am

Hey SamS, to add to your list of pro's/interests for the Hybrid, what about CO2 emissions? I know it goes hand in hand with mpg, but still, it's a pro. I understand you save 2mpg (theoretical or not), but you mentionned idling in traffic, have you noticed a savings of more than 2 mpg?

I'm a bit of a walking dilemma. I love the idea of being a tree hunger while driving a 300hp sports sedan (or station wagon)...

I wonder if BMW will make an F31 AH3! I'd love to see that!

Thanks for all the info BTW.
HPH

SamS commented: February 26, 2013, 10:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halfpasthuman

Hey SamS, to add to your list of pro's/interests for the Hybrid, what about CO2 emissions? I know it goes hand in hand with mpg, but still, it's a pro. I understand you save 2mpg (theoretical or not), but you mentionned idling in traffic, have you noticed a savings of more than 2 mpg?

I'm a bit of a walking dilemma. I love the idea of being a tree hunger while driving a 300hp sports sedan (or station wagon)...

I wonder if BMW will make an F31 AH3! I'd love to see that!

Thanks for all the info BTW.
HPH

I can appreciate the improved CO2 of the AH3, but I really don't think much about it, compared to other cars. In other words, it's nice I'm not spewing out gasses when cruising slowly or at lights, but there is no tangible benefit, like higher MPG.

The 2mpg (or more) savings is really not theoretical, it's tangible. My car now has 2000 miles on it, and my combined average is 28.3mpg. This is not the over-inflated-iDrive-calculation, this is manual pump calculation. This average does have a serious road trip calculated in it. As such, I expect normal commute MPG to level out in the 25-27mpg range. This is what I see from 328i owners with the N20. 335i owners seem to be in the low-20s for real city driving.

When you're in heavy city traffic, the main MPG savings comes from the fact that the motor is completely off when coasting, stopped, or upon initial acceleration. You're still going to use up serious gas when you are going from 10mph up to 45mph. The hybrid aspect is not helping at all during this acceleration range. And getting from zero-to-45mph speed is what takes the most gas, in any traditional vehicle.

If you're cruising down a street at 20mph steady speed, then likely you'll be on total battery power. But if you need to kick it up to 45mph quickly, then the motor will (seamlessly) come on, and burn up some gas of course.

Halfpasthuman commented: February 26, 2013, 11:09 am

Good info, thanks! So what is your ratio of city/highway on the 2000 miles and the road trip to get to 28.3 mpg avg? Just to get a feel.
With my 323i with a 40/60 split I averaged 8.8L/100 km so 26.7 mpg (hand calculated like you, although the onboard computer was really close, like .2L/100 km...) I drove, most of the time, quite gently. So you're 28.3 mpg avg sounds really good!

I never should have sold my 323i... But at least I can think of getting a AH3 or 335i in a couple of years!

SamS commented: February 26, 2013, 11:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halfpasthuman

Good info, thanks! So what is your ratio of city/highway on the 2000 miles and the road trip to get to 28.3 mpg avg? Just to get a feel.
With my 323i with a 40/60 split I averaged 8.8L/100 km so 26.7 mpg (hand calculated like you, although the onboard computer was really close, like .2L/100 km...) I drove, most of the time, quite gently. So you're 28.3 mpg avg sounds really good!

I never should have sold my 323i... But at least I can think of getting a AH3 or 335i in a couple of years!

Overall, I think the AH3 lives up perfectly to it's EPA rating of 25city/28mixed/33hwy. If you're going to have some "fun" in the city, then 25mpg is what you should expect. If I take it a bit easier, and use Eco Pro, 26-27mpg is going to be more realistic with normal driving.

jdefg2000 commented: February 26, 2013, 11:29 am

My guess is the highway is better mpg. My AH7 does 28mpg when i try to be conservative- a car with a twin turbo v8/17 feet long/weights 5k lbs...so 33 mpg for highway on the AH3 seems low for this car.

SamS commented: February 26, 2013, 11:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdefg2000

My guess is the highway is better mpg. My AH7 does 28mpg when i try to be conservative- a car with a twin turbo v8/17 feet long/weights 5k lbs...so 33 mpg for highway on the AH3 seems low for this car.

Nope, 33mpg for extended highway trips is about right.

One thing you have to keep in mind, the AH3 should perform near-identical to a 335i w/8HP transmission while at highway speeds. The battery is not driving the wheels, and the N55 is not turned off unless you are coasting. In reality, it is difficult to coast for more than a few seconds at a time, while maintaining a constant speed. The AH3 does have a slightly better final drive ratio in the 8HP to improve MPG, but combine that with the coasting benefits, and maybe you can save 1mpg on the highway vs. a traditional 335i. Consider the extra 300lbs you're hauling around in the back, and you can see how it can even be a wash compared to a 335i for hwy mpg.

If you take out all stopping on a traditional trip, and just take a 100 mile run on good highway, then sure you might hit 36-37mpg. But you'll get the same results with a 335i.

Dstrass29 commented: February 26, 2013, 1:43 pm

There has always been a $3500 Eco Credit from BMW on the car that reduces the price that is not on a 335i. When you drive the car, you don't notice the Auto Start/Stop because the car already takes off under electric and the engine lights up as you drive.

rparik01 commented: March 12, 2013, 1:54 pm

"Let's break down the numbers: The owner drives 15,000 miles per year and that's all in the city (best case). Assume that he really saves 2 mile/gallon (no guarantee that'll happen) and that premium unleaded costs $4.50/gallon. That means he would save a whopping $52 dollars a year with this car."

Nobody cared to double check the math? That's 52 GALLONS saved a year or $234. And with that, I'll return to watching the debate.

everettpa1 commented: March 12, 2013, 3:30 pm

AH3 buyer does it for feelings and not reality. Guaranteed every AH3 comes with an Obama sticker on it.

cheikh82 commented: March 12, 2013, 3:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

AH3 buyer does it for feelings and not reality. Guaranteed every AH3 comes with an Obama sticker on it.

Obama stickers are great, got them all over my basement

thegandalf commented: March 12, 2013, 3:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

AH3 buyer does it for feelings and not reality. Guaranteed every AH3 comes with an Obama sticker on it.

All these comments without having even driven the car, make it look like you are just trolling.
I am pretty sure there are plenty of political forums where your comments will be appreciated.

samualcc commented: March 12, 2013, 4:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

Hybrids suck and are stupid. Diesels are the way to go to achieve the performance and fuel savings gain. Yeah let's add 300-400 pounds to a vehicle. That's fun.

Everybody has to have a stupid hybrid in the lineup.

Buy an egg shaped hybrid for maximum fuel efficiency if you don't care about styling or performance. That makes sense. You want max fuel economy go get one.

But buying a luxury car with a Hybrid makes no sense. You get marginal power bumps and marginal fuel savings. You can never justify the price difference on gas savings alone, unless you drive 100K miles a year, or the car is loaded with giveaway money, like this AH3.

No car company would do this if they didn't have to do it. It's nearly as dopey as the Efficient Dynamics crap and ASS (great acronym BTW), and eco pro, and yuck.

BMW is right on the border of annoying with this gas savings nonsense.

Have an agenda much? In a world were we buy 45k+ cars you are making a case that the price premium doesn't make sense? Get outta here! That is complete nonsense and quite frankly it is pretty ignorant to judge peoples motivations for purchasing that particular car. Since when did we get upset because there are MORE options for BMW drivers?

samualcc commented: March 12, 2013, 4:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by everettpa1

AH3 buyer does it for feelings and not reality. Guaranteed every AH3 comes with an Obama sticker on it.