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A while back several people in this forum offered their ideas and tips on how to treat non-primary partners well in poly/open relationships. That led to my recent crowdsourced article on my blog SoloPoly, which has been attracting a fair amount of discussion in the poly/open community:

I'm working on another crowdsourced article and would appreciate input from people in this community.

This time I want to tackle the phenomenon of couple privilege -- what it is, how it affects the poly/open community, whether it's a problem, how people are dealing with it, and how we could deal with it.

I realize this is a touchy topic, since poly/open people hold a wide range of divergent and strong views on this topic. So I won't try to digest it into a tip list (as with my previous article), but rather present one or more articles that describe what's going on with couple privilege in polyamory.

In that initial call for input I laid out my thinking so far -- how I'm defining couple privilege, and some core issues and challenges it entails in poly/open relationships. I then raise several questions I'd like feedback on. These are:

Do you believe couple privilege exists? How would you define it? (Or how would you adjust my proposed definition?)

How have you seen couple privilege manifest in poly/open relationships? (Examples)

Is couple privilege harmful, neutral or beneficial in poly/open relationships, or in the poly/open community? Why or why not?

How would you like to see couple privilege addressed in the poly/open community at large?

If you are part of a primary couple that chooses to handle relationships with additional intimate partners in hierarchical ways that may seem to reinforce couple privilege, what is your rationale or intent for those choices?

If you eschew hierarchy and/or labels in your poly/open relationships, how do you “walk that talk” regarding couple privilege?

If you are a non-primary partner or solo poly/open person, how have you adapted to couple privilege in terms of how you handle relationships and what you’re willing to accommodate?

To respond, please feel free to comment here, or on my blog post, or in a post of your own (send me the link), or e-mail me (aggiesez@hotmail.com)

As with my previous crowdsourcing project, I'm open to input from anyone on this -- but I'm particularly keen on hearing from people who are non-primary partners in ongoing poly/open relationships, since our perspective usually isn't very prominent in discourse about polyamory.

If your respond, I'd appreciate if you’d clarify whether you identify as poly/open (or not), and whether you currently have a primary partner, and whether you currently are in a non-primary relationship. I’m happy to consider input from anyone, but that it crucial context for understanding your perspective.

Once again, I will not identify specific contributors — but as in my prior crowdsourced post on treating non-primary partners well, I will quote from selected responses.

How would you define it? (Or how would you adjust my proposed definition?)

Prioritizing the needs/desires/preferences of the couple over any other partners.

Quote:

How have you seen couple privilege manifest in poly/open relationships? (Examples)

Creation of boundary agreements that largely impact the ability of other partners to ever have similar depth/privilege/rights in relationship with either partner in the couple. Property ownership, decision making regarding vacations, weekends, finances, etc.

Quote:

Is couple privilege harmful, neutral or beneficial in poly/open relationships, or in the poly/open community? Why or why not?

I think it's unrealistic to expect people to negate it without time to move towards the negation of it-
but I think overall it is harmful.

I think that it's MUCH MORE functional to prioritize privilege earned in terms of responsibility put in; not in terms of who came first.

For example: we (husband and I) have an agreement that specifies the amount of responsibility and privilege we expect from a person who is in any given role in our lives. We created the agreement so that we could communicate with one another more simply in terms of what we can expect from metamours regarding responsibility to the FAMILY SITUATION and to our partner as well as what privileges we agree go along with those levels of responsibility.

My boyfriend (who has lived with us for 10 years) has equal privilege regarding financial decisions (we are actually in process of purchasing an additional property in his name so that we can improve his credit-as he's never had a mortgage, major cc or loan).
He has equal say so in terms of safety boundaries (safer sex for example) that pertain to any "new" partners (of which he is not).
He has equal say in regards to where family vacations are planned and when and daily schedules, kids schedules, activities, chores etc.

By our boundary definitions he is in fact an "OSO" and has all the same privileges as a full member of our family.

There has still been "couple-centric issues" in terms of equality because of the fact that we got to poly via he and I cheating (3 years poly now). That has meant he and I regaining trust. One of the steps in that has been prioritizing Dh's need for date time with me as a first. That need gets met prior to scheduling date time with my bf.
However-this is a concession bf and I discussed and agreed to on account of our breach of trust.

On the other hand-if someone new comes into the picture as a potential-the amount of one-on-one time they get is significantly less than either my DH or bf gets with me-based upon our ability to "sneak in private moments" since we live together (we still only reserve one date night a week due to having kid/work/school obligations).
They are limited to one date a week one-on-one-which is the same as we get, but because they don't live with us-they miss the sneak-peak moments.

Once a relationship is established they earn more opportunity to spend time joining in family/social activities in addition to the date time.

As time passes, they can become more integrated and involved in the family and to the extent that they put in-they can "get out" of it.

How would you like to see couple privilege addressed in the poly/open community at large?

I don't know.

Quote:

If you are part of a primary couple that chooses to handle relationships with additional intimate partners in hierarchical ways that may seem to reinforce couple privilege, what is your rationale or intent for those choices?

If you eschew hierarchy and/or labels in your poly/open relationships, how do you “walk that talk” regarding couple privilege?

It's a work in progress. We started with a disaster. I can't say it was even hierarchical-it was just a big clusterfuck.

But-our goal is to address issues as they arise individually and to respect each person in our family as an individual with rights and needs and preferences to be considered by all.
We work (not as a couple-but as a family unit with four parental like people) to prioritize each persons needs without exclusion of anothers. When it becomes impossible due to complete contradictions-we prioritize the kids needs first, then brainstorm the most equitable possible options.
We haven't gotten it fully on board with what we want yet-but we've come a HELL of a long way from where we started.

Do you believe couple privilege exists? How would you define it? (Or how would you adjust my proposed definition?)

Yes. I'd define it as putting the preservation of the couple first and foremost.

Quote:

How have you seen couple privilege manifest in poly/open relationships?

In my situation, as a single woman seeing a married poly man, I see it mainly in the fact that our dates tend to revolve around his wife's plans. I see a lot of ways in which he has put my feelings and what matters to me on an equal or even higher level, which I suspect, reading here, is a little atypical.

However, there's that one major 'couple privilege' of the assumption that the couple will remain together, which tells the secondary from the start that this relationship can only go so far. Yes, a few do eventually move in and become co-primaries, but there are so many reasons why that wouldn't work for most people, that those numbers are very, very small and don't change the likely outcome of this secondary relationship can only go so far.

I have been told repeatedly that "I can't offer you more." (No, I wasn't asking, he says it in apology and in reference to other things.) So right from the start there is the mixed message of, "I really, really like you, I can't wait to see you again, I'd do anything for you...except that...and I can't see you tonight." In short, it can feel like, you're not really all that.

Quote:

Is couple privilege harmful, neutral or beneficial in poly/open relationships, or in the poly/open community? Why or why not?

It's beneficial to the couple for obvious reasons. It's what allows them to believe they have enough security in the marriage to venture out.

For the secondary, it depends on many things: the situation and desires of the particular (secondary) person, and just how much couple privilege we're talking about (only the one rule that they won't break up, or an extensive list of rules and regulations?)

If the secondary has no desire to have this person full time, it's beneficial to know she's 'safe' from this guy suddenly wanting to move in with her.

In most cases, I'd say it's neutral at best, and usually harmful, to the secondary person. I think the reasons are obvious. You've got a third person dictating the terms of your so-called relationship.

Knowing, always, at the back of my mind, that she does ultimately have veto power. In their case, it's more veto over being open at all than over a particular person. But that doesn't change the outcome for me, should she suddenly decide she doesn't want an open marriage any more.

Knowing from the start that I must keep my feelings in check because this relationship (mine and his) has an end point because he's married and intends to stay that way. I have no problem with this and in fact don't want to be the cause of breaking up a marriage, but I also have no intention of falling desperately in love with someone who will ultimately choose to be with me only on his terms.

Keeping my feelings in check means our relationship will never be all it could be.

Quote:

How would you like to see couple privilege addressed in the poly/open community at large?

I don't feel I'm deep enough into the poly/open community to really know how it's viewed over all, or what needs addressing. But perhaps among other things what is needed is the honesty you mention. Honesty requires, in part, admitting that the egalitarian ideal works better as a theory than as a reality.

People need to believe that they can rely on their spouse. I won't even say know because I've seen too many examples, even here, of primary couples breaking up and one person re-marrying their secondary. But in relationships, any relationship, we have a need to believe we can count on someone else to continue being there and playing their role in our lives. We are not islands. We weren't made to be islands.

But it is this very promise to continue being there for one person that limits and often ultimately harms the second person who becomes very emotionally involved.

This is one of the fatal, inherent flaws I see in polyamory.

Quote:

If you are part of a primary couple[/B] that chooses to handle relationships with additional intimate partners in hierarchical ways that may seem to reinforce couple privilege, what is your rationale or intent for those choices?

I'm not part of a primary couple, but my guess is that the ultimate reason is security: feeling they can each trust that the other will ultimately come back home to them.

Quote:

If you are a non-primary partner or solo poly/open person, how have you adapted to couple privilege in terms of how you handle relationships and what you’re willing to accommodate?

I am less emotionally invested in the relationship than my BF is, for my own emotional protection. I enjoy his company very much, but I remind myself not to 'take it too seriously,' not to let myself become emotionally dependent on him, not to start expecting anything from him.

The longer into it I go, however, I find I'm less willing to accept, "Oh, sorry, Baby, I'm married" as an excuse for anything that would smack of telling me her wants and needs would always come ahead of mine.

I have reminded myself often enough that I can walk away from this anytime I don't feel I'm being treated with respect and concern, and I'm quite willing to.

This time I want to tackle the phenomenon of couple privilege -- what it is, how it affects the poly/open community, whether it's a problem, how people are dealing with it, and how we could deal with it.

Hmm, I think your premise is a bit flawed. What or which "poly community" is being affected by this concept of "couple privilege?" I mean, all people who are polyamorous aren't paying for membership in a worldwide club nor confronting the same issues everywhere. Poly is just a structure for managing relationships, not a galvanized movement or community. Sure, there are local groups all over the place, but they are made up of people who all do their own things - can a concept such as "couple privilege" actually influence a diverse bunch of people who make their own choices about their relationships?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AggieSez

. . . I laid out my thinking so far -- how I'm defining couple privilege, and some core issues and challenges it entails in poly/open relationships. I then raise several questions I'd like feedback on.

I practice solo polyamory, and although I won't answer all your questions, I will answer the questions I feel moved to or able to answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AggieSez

Do you believe couple privilege exists?

Nope. There is no polyamorous authority that grants privilege to any particular poly group from on high, so where would such a privilege come from? Certainly there is such an attitude that many couples do have, but... actual privilege? No. It is imaginary. If couples act in a way that indicates a they have a certain privilege over individuals, it is basically because they think that's what they should do, and for whatever reason, they feel it is necessary for their "survival" as a couple. Or it is based on a misguided arrogance which leads them to think that anyone else they get involved with is only there to supplant and enhance what they have, while the individuals' needs are far less important. But the carrying out of such a privilege only happens if the individuals they get involved with also go along with it.

I personally call this attitude "revering The Holy Dyad," and I do find it distasteful. I would not get involved with anyone who operates that way, as I do not recognize the idea that there is any sort of privilege a couple should have. I feel that if people in a couple want additional relationships, they just need to embrace and accept the idea that everything is going to change, and holding onto this kernel of having the couple at the center of their poly universe makes absolutely no sense. Even if you are raising children, I see no reason to keep them in the dark about special people in your lives -- and there are all sort of alternative ways to parent/co-parent. Of course, children must be protected and nurtured, but if you are having multiple relationships for the relating and not just the sex, then why not start thinking of parenting differently (communally) and having your partners be co-parents? Perhaps the notion that a couple in a poly configuration is of utmost importance and must be protected at all costs comes from the swinging community, or springs out of society's preference for the traditions of monogamy. But such privilege only exists if we pay credence to it. I don't, and won't, so I am unaffected by such nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AggieSez

How would you like to see couple privilege addressed in the poly/open community at large?

Again, I ask, what poly/open community???

Quote:

Originally Posted by AggieSez

If you eschew hierarchy and/or labels in your poly/open relationships, how do you “walk that talk” regarding couple privilege?

If you are a non-primary partner or solo poly/open person, how have you adapted to couple privilege in terms of how you handle relationships and what you’re willing to accommodate?

I can answer both these questions with the same response, because I am solo and do not engage in hierarchies myself. Basically, couple privilege, as I stated earlier, is a non-issue for me because I refuse to engage with anyone who believes in such poppycock. And so I don't feel the need to get defensive about my position, either. I have come across partnered poly guys who were interested in me and did have some sort of rules with their primary partner that seemed to invoke a privilege over individuals, but I walk away from that!

My approach to handling it is simple. I have established my own personal boundaries surrounding how I want to be treated in relationships. One of my boundaries is that no metamour will make rules for or dictate how I conduct my relationships. Another boundary I have is that I will not tolerate being treated with disrespect. Both of those boundaries of mine mean that, if I meet and am interested in getting involved with someone who is poly and partnered with someone they consider primary, I ask what rules they have that will affect me. If they tell me things that do not sit right with me and indicate that they see their primary relationship as The Holy Dyad -- such as, for example, their spouse has veto power -- I say, "Thanks but no thanks. Buh-bye!" No matter how attracted I may be to a guy, if a relationship isn't starting out on a level playing field, why would I even want to go there? To struggle for the equanimity that is my right in any relationship? It isn't worth it to me to try and change his views, or to put myself in a position like that hoping it will someday get better. Perhaps that is why I am very cautious about getting into something with someone who is already partnered.

I am not saying that I would not respect a lover's other relationships, nor that I would never accept certain limitations or be able to negotiate on some things, such as amount or frequency of time we can spend together or other such things that naturally make sense when someone is juggling multiple relationships. For example, I had no problem with not contacting with one lover of mine on Sundays because I knew that he and his wife had set aside that day as "their time" -- but he never forbade me from contacting him on Sundays, and sometimes initiated contact with me on those days. I would not contact him because I knew he needed that day to be with her. But if he had set down a decree that I am never allowed to contact him on Sundays, I would have thought, "What the hell? Who do you think you are?" So, because I felt respected and not talked down to, I respected him, and his other relationship, and willingly accommodated what he needed.

I think that, probably, the biggest mistake solo poly folks make is not to establish their own personal set of boundaries for any potential partners/lovers to abide by. It doesn't make sense that a couple's rules or boundaries are the only ones that matter. Whether a solo poly person is considering a romantic liaison with a couple or someone who is part of a couple, instead of thinking that the couple's rules or considerations should take precedence over the solo's, the solo needs to be clear about what they need to feel valued and important to someone, and they should make it plain and clear to the partnered potential(s) what their own boundaries are and that the couple's will not take precedence for them.

[*]Do you believe couple privilege exists? How would you define it? (Or how would you adjust my proposed definition?)

I think your definition works well. I think the "presumption" and "default" parts are particularly important. For myself, I do not see my relationship with my husband as more valid or more important than my relationship with my partner. But I'm well aware of the protections I'm afforded because MC and I chose to get the piece of paper: medical insurance, tax benefits, legalities of property ownership and child custody, etc. That's exactly why we chose to get the piece of paper, since we didn't need it for our own recognition of the commitment we'd made to each other. It saddens and angers me that even when TGIB joins our household he will not be able to be included in the protections the rest of our family will automatically enjoy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AggieSez

[*]How have you seen couple privilege manifest in poly/open relationships? (Examples)

The only other poly person I know in person is pretty much doing the solo poly thing, dating two men who are each dating only her, so except for my own experiences I don't have any examples of couple privilege or lack thereof in poly relationships.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AggieSez

[*]Is couple privilege harmful, neutral or beneficial in poly/open relationships, or in the poly/open community? Why or why not?

Overall I would say harmful due to the lack of thoughtful examination and deliberateness inherent in the proposed definition of couple privilege. If communication is the key to successful poly, assumptions are the downfall of it. Introspection is also part of this, as you can't know where your boundaries are if you don't know what you do and don't want from a relationship.

I'm quite strong-willed and usually argue logically, so from the beginning MC and I discussed not only our boundaries but the reasons behind them. Some boundaries had to do with respecting my husband and the time I spent with him, because I wanted to, not because I was afraid he would leave me if I didn't. And for years I was perfectly okay with the boundary of not sleeping with other people, because I did not want to risk getting pregnant with someone else's child (and I'm really fricking picky anyway. I can only think of 3 people I wanted to sleep with but didn't due to pregnancy risk, and 2 of those I'm just as glad now, looking back, that I didn't!). Once I was done having kids and my pregnancy risk dropped significantly, AND I developed a relationship with TGIB where sleeping together was something we wanted to incorporate into our relationship, the boundary changed. It took some time for MC to get used to the idea, being a new thing and all, so we didn't rush anything, but ultimately we got to a place where everyone was content with the outcome. Because, to me, IF couple privilege exists in my relationships (and I can't prevent all of it), I want it affecting BOTH couples that I'm a part of equally. Of course, even if it were to apply to ALL couples equally, then you get into inequalities with people who are single or in triads or what have you, so it's worth working towards a society where one is not defined by one's relationship status.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AggieSez

[*]If you are part of a primary couple that chooses to handle relationships with additional intimate partners in hierarchical ways that may seem to reinforce couple privilege, what is your rationale or intent for those choices?

TGIB is currently long distance so that affects a lot of our choices at the moment. Also, MC and I have two children while TGIB has three children with his ex. We have all made the choice not to co-parent each other's children beyond what a platonic housemate would do. Our parenting styles are different enough that trying to coordinate the way MC and I want to raise our children with the way TGIB and his ex have agreed to raise their children is not worth the headaches and stress. IF we are ever in a situation where all the kids are living in the same household long-term, then of course compromises will have to be reached, but we aren't there yet. In some ways I see it much like trying to coordinate parenting styles and duties in regards to a step-parent, particularly based on how much time the child spends living with said step-parent.

I'd define it as putting the preservation of the couple first and foremost.

I was talking to TGIB about this bit, and his response was, "Aren't there two couples in our relationship?" and he's right. I know you meant preserving the primary couple first and foremost, but frankly if my relationship has to be "preserved" or "protected" then it's probably time to exit anyway. I'm not going to run out and start doing things to intentionally damage my relationship with my husband, of course, but nor am I going to tiptoe on eggshells and treat it like a fragile piece of glass. If my relationship can't stand up to my choices, it's fucked anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatHappened

In my situation, as a single woman seeing a married poly man, I see it mainly in the fact that our dates tend to revolve around his wife's plans. I see a lot of ways in which he has put my feelings and what matters to me on an equal or even higher level, which I suspect, reading here, is a little atypical.

Does he tend to change plans with you based on plans she makes? Or does she just get on the calendar first since she lives with him? MC has a friend that he meets up with to work on writing, and a lot of times she tries to schedule something only a few days in advance, which doesn't really work for our family schedule. And when he tries to schedule something further in advance, she often doesn't know her schedule well enough to commit. I wonder if, in your case, is that less "couple privilege" and more "live-in partner privilege".

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatHappened

However, there's that one major 'couple privilege' of the assumption that the couple will remain together, which tells the secondary from the start that this relationship can only go so far. Yes, a few do eventually move in and become co-primaries, but there are so many reasons why that wouldn't work for most people, that those numbers are very, very small and don't change the likely outcome of this secondary relationship can only go so far.

While I agree that this does happen a lot, I think your assumption that a co-primary must move in to be considered such speaks again to the "live-in partner privilege" rather than "couple privilege". TGIB and I didn't start this relationship with any sort of "this can only go so far" message, though there was definitely a message of "I have no interest in leaving my husband" which TGIB was perfectly okay with (again, MY choice and decision, not anyone else's assumption). It was more of "we don't know what this is, let's let it play out and figure it out." Originally he had NO desire to live with a partner again, or even be in a committed relationship again. As those desires changed, though, the expectation of what will happen once we all live in the same area changed, from "living nearby" to "living next door" to "living with us".

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatHappened

I have been told repeatedly that "I can't offer you more." (No, I wasn't asking, he says it in apology and in reference to other things.) So right from the start there is the mixed message of, "I really, really like you, I can't wait to see you again, I'd do anything for you...except that...and I can't see you tonight." In short, it can feel like, you're not really all that.

I understand that feeling, and it SUCKS, but again I wonder if it really goes back to couple privilege or something more general like family responsibilities. TGIB is not seeing anyone else at the moment, but he still has tons of responsibilities and commitments to his kids and other family members. He would LIKE to be able to give me more, but it's just not possible given the situation at the moment. Perhaps there's a "family privilege" for those with kids that is similar to "couple privilege". In fact, thinking about it, I can already think of privileges for those with kids AND privileges for those without kids, so I guess it can go either way and the key is to be aware of whichever one applies to you/your loved ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatHappened

It's beneficial to the couple for obvious reasons. It's what allows them to believe they have enough security in the marriage to venture out.

Ouch. That last sentence feels a little derogatory. Hopefully you were speaking to the un-examined assumptions of couple privilege? Because I would venture to say that BECAUSE MC and I have discussed so thoroughly the ways in which we don't desire to adhere to the expectations of couple privilege, but rather do what we feel is best for each of us separately, as well as best for us as a couple (and that applies to me and TGIB as well), THAT is what tells me we're strong enough to navigate whatever comes to pass, whether we're referring to my relationship with TGIB or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatHappened

For the secondary, it depends on many things: the situation and desires of the particular (secondary) person, and just how much couple privilege we're talking about (only the one rule that they won't break up, or an extensive list of rules and regulations?)

Very true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhatHappened

But perhaps among other things what is needed is the honesty you mention. Honesty requires, in part, admitting that the egalitarian ideal works better as a theory than as a reality.

People need to believe that they can rely on their spouse. I won't even say know because I've seen too many examples, even here, of primary couples breaking up and one person re-marrying their secondary. But in relationships, any relationship, we have a need to believe we can count on someone else to continue being there and playing their role in our lives. We are not islands. We weren't made to be islands.

But it is this very promise to continue being there for one person that limits and often ultimately harms the second person who becomes very emotionally involved.

This is one of the fatal, inherent flaws I see in polyamory.

I wonder if this is part of the difference between choosing to be poly because it makes sense and being wired for poly. Is it easier for those "wired" for poly to continue being there for more than one person? I feel I'm there for TGIB as much as I am for MC (except for the long distance thing, but again, that goes back to family responsibilities on both our parts, not romantic entanglements). And I would sure hope that TGIB is very emotionally involved because I sure am, even though I'm also married to and very emotionally involved with MC. This may be the key to "successful" (by whatever definition you choose) poly relationships- are you, as an individual REALLY capable of putting the time, energy, and effort into multiple relationships? Or are you already pretty stretched just trying to handle one? I wonder how many people try to be poly because they like the idea in theory, rather than are cognizant of the real consequences of it, and if those aren't the ones that tend to blow up badly.

I'm not going to run out and start doing things to intentionally damage my relationship with my husband, of course, but nor am I going to tiptoe on eggshells and treat it like a fragile piece of glass. If my relationship can't stand up to my choices, it's fucked anyway.

I've got quite a diverse array of responses on this issue of couple privilege, so I'll have to tackle it in several posts -- including the perspective that it doesn't exist. Thanks for your eloquent thoughts on that perspective!

You wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nycindie

I think that, probably, the biggest mistake solo poly folks make is not to establish their own personal set of boundaries for any potential partners/lovers to abide by. It doesn't make sense that a couple's rules or boundaries are the only ones that matter. Whether a solo poly person is considering a romantic liaison with a couple or someone who is part of a couple, instead of thinking that the couple's rules or considerations should take precedence over the solo's, the solo needs to be clear about what they need to feel valued and important to someone, and they should make it plain and clear to the partnered potential(s) what their own boundaries are and that the couple's will not take precedence for them.

Wow, that is fodder for an entirely separate crowdsourced post. Thanks for the idea! I'll start a separate thread on that later!