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The weird thing is I have NO feelings about this group of players. I don't know what to make of it. It doesn't get me excited, and it doesn't make me less excited. We added good players to our team, but we also don't have some of those great veterans anymore. It's weird. Forget about Amar'e and Tyson's injuries, what about Melo and J.R.'s??????!!!!! Those are the younger guys. Shumpert is gonna be nasty on both ends this up-coming season, could be just what the Knicks need to get over the biggest obstacles.

Rj I feel like thats the proper stance. I mean us optimists have reason to be optimistic and the same can be said for the pessimists. Too many factors to really know, the bargs experiment can turn us to a legit contender best case as well as shump heading in all star territory. But what if melo goes down, jr not like he was last year. Shump not developing. Too many factors but I think that the bargs project is gonna be a big success, probably more then anyone on this forum and shump will develop more.

Metro after reading a few other responses to other posters on here I see that we just disagree on what our player's defensive grades are.

As you see our front court:
Metta = B
Chandler = C
Stat = F
Barg = D

How I see it:
Metta = B
Martin = B
Chandler = B (I agree he isn't the defender he use to be but I dont believe he has dropped off THAT much...He just needs to be healthy)
Stat = C- (Opposite of Barg.... Horrible 1 on 1 but better helper)
Bard = D (I gotta take your word on that since I haven't watched him extensively)

Same players, different grades so I have a different vision of what we are capable of. Don't think we'll find middle ground here just agree to disagree.

If anything I do agree that our front court is the weakest part of the team but not the weakest of the entire league... Leave the final roster spot and pick up another defensive body as the season goes along and we should be set. Not much minutes to go around anyway at that point.

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Not sure if you missed some guys the past 3 seasons, but Amare is definitely an F. He can't guard the pick and roll, which is a big reason why Miami will always be our superior, they have Chris Bosh who's excellent at coming to the 3point line and defending the pick and roll effectively.

Amare one on one is flat footed and slow going backwards. He's a top 5 worst big man in the league, legit bottom 5. Even a 3pt specialist Ryan Anderson provides more effectiveness at the PF position defensively than Stat.

Chandler is a C because

Tyson was ranked 16th amongst centers in defense(points allowed in the paint, team ppg allowed, overall defense) in the 2012-13 season.
Tyson got gradually worse when the playoffs started. He got obliterated by Roy Hibbert and exposed as a weak fragile and soft center who has his limitations. Chandler's best asset right now is his height.

I don't know why fans excuse Chandler of this season and still think he's DPOY leveled. I disagree with that. Age isn't in his favor, he's been in the NBA since he was 17 and he's 32 now. That's a lot of mileage and it'll be hard for Chandler to avoid the decline of his prime, which is where he is now.

Anyone who thinks Chandler is a good defender now is delusional. He was average in the regular season and terrible in the playoffs. He did nothing in 2012-13 to earn a B grade except your personal feelings on him.

Originally Posted by MSGhobo247

Metro after reading a few other responses to other posters on here I see that we just disagree on what our player's defensive grades are.

As you see our front court:
Metta = B
Chandler = C
Stat = F
Barg = D

How I see it:
Metta = B
Martin = B
Chandler = B (I agree he isn't the defender he use to be but I dont believe he has dropped off THAT much...He just needs to be healthy)
Stat = C- (Opposite of Barg.... Horrible 1 on 1 but better helper)
Bard = D (I gotta take your word on that since I haven't watched him extensively)

Same players, different grades so I have a different vision of what we are capable of. Don't think we'll find middle ground here just agree to disagree.

If anything I do agree that our front court is the weakest part of the team but not the weakest of the entire league... Leave the final roster spot and pick up another defensive body as the season goes along and we should be set. Not much minutes to go around anyway at that point.

World Peace isn't the defender he was. He's B level.
Chandler isn't the defender he was. He's C level
Martin plays defense, but is only 6"8/6"9 and can't patrol the paint to the level we need him to, plus he'll only be playing 20 minutes a game at most so his impact will be partial.

Amare is an F level defender
Bargnani is an D level defender (man to man post defense is actually okay, but his help defense is weak)

Knicks have the worst interior defense in the East. You naming what Ron Artest and Chandler did a couple of years ago is totally pointless.

How do we know that Anthony won't be playing the 4 this year? Until we get a confirmation from Woodson, I don't want to hear that crap. Woodson loves Melo at the 4 and doesn't adjust the roster to Melo as a SF. Please go ahead and do yourself a favor and present information that shows Mike Woodson favors big ball.

Your punk ass ain't leaving no where...lol I can call bluff on bets in a heartbeat, don't try to fool me.

Metro .... Chill, ur first post was valid to stir up members to respond twice to this thread.
Their response was to push Metro's emotional button for their anger at Beno's comment. It worked.

Beno's comment was indirectly aimed at Woodson, Melo, and JR (only) .. it was a simular comment that Marcus Camby made on the Denver Nuggets after being swept 0-4 in the first-round in the 2007-8 postseason games by Lakers. The aftermath of Camby's comment in 2007-8 got Camby traded to the low-low LA Clippers 2 months later, for nothing in return.
Camby avg 15 rebounds, and 2.5 blocks in that series.

this is Beno's quote:
"What it takes is just to be a team and to definitely have good players," Udrih said. "There has to be chemistry and everything has to be right. That's how it was in San Antonio basically. Tim Duncan didn't care who scored the most points. He's a Hall of Famer, but he was more about the team. He just wanted us to win. Sometimes he scored 30, and the next day he scored 10, but he still was very, very productive in rebounding.

"Everybody has to work for each other, especially on the defensive end. I think we have enough scorers on our team now, but we definitely got to step up and basically defend first and then rebound the ball."

The highlight last statement is what the Knicks lack the moment Melo join the Knicks team.
The 2010-11 (Amare) Knicks started the season winning off of team-defense & team rebounding, they lacked scoring-power from the SG position. It was like Amare came to the Knicks bringing HC Gentry system. We receive an above average in team-D and team-Reb from Mosgov/Turiaf/Amare/W.Chandler/Gallo/Fields/Walker/Douglas/Felton to have a 29-26 record team before the Melo trade.

Beno Udrih is 31 yrs old with 9 yrs in the NBA, having 7 yrs in the Western Conference playing against oponents Melo & JR on the Denver Nuggets. Beno have 3 yrs exp of being the backup PG of the NBA number #1 best strategic HC Pop in the bussiness, Beno received two Championship Rings knocking off the Melo Denver Nuggets twice in the first round 4-1, in 2005 & 2007. The Melo Denver Nuggets had no team-chemistry, no team-defense, and no team-rebounding in both of their series vs the San Antonio Spurs.

The most important thing about Beno's comment on winning a Title .. is how will HC Woodson react at giving Beno playingtime this upcoming season for mentioning three major things the Knicks were poor at last season?
How will Melo react to Beno's statement of MVP Duncan's 30 point game, then 10 point game to keep the team Gellin to get a winning chemistry? and last but not least how will JR.smith react to Beno's comment on team-defense?

Metro .... When the HC focus all his attention on Team-Defense, and strong cumminication on the defensive-end here are the top-winning Knicks-players .. Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin, Amare, Tyler, Meta, Shump, Pablo, and Beno.
When the HC only focus on a halfcourt-setting of ISO-ISO offense, then everything in ur first post is true...

Metro .... Chill, ur first post was valid to stir up members to respond twice to this thread.
Their response was to push Metro's emotional button for their anger at Beno's comment. It worked.

Beno's comment was indirectly aimed at Woodson, Melo, and JR (only) .. it was a simular comment that Marcus Camby made on the Denver Nuggets after being swept 0-4 in the first-round in the 2007-8 postseason games by Lakers. The aftermath of Camby's comment in 2007-8 got Camby traded to the low-low LA Clippers 2 months later, for nothing in return.
Camby avg 15 rebounds, and 2.5 blocks in that series.

The highlight last statement is what the Knicks lack the moment Melo join the Knicks team.
The 2010-11 (Amare) Knicks started the season winning off of team-defense & team rebounding, they lacked scoring-power from the SG position. It was like Amare came to the Knicks bringing HC Gentry system. We receive an above average in team-D and team-Reb from Mosgov/Turiaf/Amare/W.Chandler/Gallo/Fields/Walker/Douglas/Felton to have a 29-26 record team before the Melo trade.

Beno Udrih is 31 yrs old with 9 yrs in the NBA, having 7 yrs in the Western Conference playing against oponents Melo & JR on the Denver Nuggets. Beno have 3 yrs exp of being the backup PG of the NBA number #1 best strategic HC Pop in the bussiness, Beno received two Championship Rings knocking off the Melo Denver Nuggets twice in the first round 4-1, in 2005 & 2007. The Melo Denver Nuggets had no team-chemistry, no team-defense, and no team-rebounding in both of their series vs the San Antonio Spurs.

The most important thing about Beno's comment on winning a Title .. is how will HC Woodson react at giving Beno playingtime this upcoming season for mentioning three major things the Knicks were poor at last season?
How will Melo react to Beno's statement of MVP Duncan's 30 point game, then 10 point game to keep the team Gellin to get a winning chemistry? and last but not least how will JR.smith react to Beno's comment on team-defense?

Metro .... When the HC focus all his attention on Team-Defense, and strong cumminication on the defensive-end here are the top-winning Knicks-players .. Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin, Amare, Tyler, Meta, Shump, Pablo, and Beno.
When the HC only focus on a halfcourt-setting of ISO-ISO offense, then everything in ur first post is true...

I see yall starting to cling to each other. That what happens when most people on the forum posts are starting to oppose yall. You need allies to help with the same argument when its a losing one. I can dig it.

Beno Udrih is 31 yrs old with 9 yrs in the NBA, having 7 yrs in the Western Conference playing against oponents Melo & JR on the Denver Nuggets. Beno have 3 yrs exp of being the backup PG of the NBA number #1 best strategic HC Pop in the bussiness, Beno received two Championship Rings knocking off the Melo Denver Nuggets twice in the first round 4-1, in 2005 & 2007. The Melo Denver Nuggets had no team-chemistry, no team-defense, and no team-rebounding in both of their series vs the San Antonio Spurs.

Metro .... When the HC focus all his attention on Team-Defense, and strong cumminication on the defensive-end here are the top-winning Knicks-players .. Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin, Amare, Tyler, Meta, Shump, Pablo, and Beno.
When the HC only focus on a halfcourt-setting of ISO-ISO offense, then everything in ur first post is true...

Karl's Nuggets was alot better than GSW

ESPN predicted Nuggets in 5 max in 6 and again lost in 1st round to GSW which could also go to Oakland with 2-0 to Spurs.

Knicks ISO problem is just proper IQ shooting not dribbling and making fastbreaks

> what if Beno will surpass all PG in Knicks roster ? he is not worse than felton

Then he will play.

All this focus on who starts is misplaced anyway. Woodson has already shown that he is willing to have a starter play 5 minutes and a bench player 30 minutes. He has already shown a willingness to play anyone and to sit anyone, including Melo. Our depth is a strength when you have a coach like that.

i like this move right here for one main reason, Beno will be able to play heavy minutes which means that unlike last year where they had to manage 2 older pg's minutes (and eventually run one down after Felton got injured). If Felton suffers any injuries again Beno can take the minute load and the knicks shouldn't have to run Prigioni down during the regular season.

Forget about Bobby Brown, forget about other broken old players, and definitely forget about Delonte West. If the Knicks can somehow pull off this sign out of there asses, it will be the biggest steal for the Knicks this off season. This guy could play, a great role player and is desperately needed for the Knicks. We are all seeing he Knicks almost not change at all this season which is okay except okay sucks. The Knicks need help and with Udrih we don't have to worry about the back court. The front court is an issue but at least we will look somewhat better. I'm sure you are aware of his game and what he can bring to the Knicks offense and he has a decent defensive game as well.

Yes, it was based on ur thread, but more on Felton being our starting-PG.
Pablo only have one year experience on the many NBA PG, and NBA Headcoaches. Pablo showed his best dominating skills on offense/defesne lastseason when we moved him to combo-guard.
Beno is a decent defensive PG that may gell well with Shump in the backcourt. But u cant forget the Kings got PG-Toney Douglas defense to replace Beno. Or that Felton best season in the NBA as a PG had tandem up with PG-Toney Douglas relentless defense in the backcourt for 24 minutes per game.

Felton average 35 minutes of playingtime as a starter on the Bobcats since his rookie season, and never enhance his skill-level higher within 5 seasons as a Bobcats.
We were suppose to sign a PG that will challenge Felton's PG skills for minutes in each 48 minute game. Which Jennings or Nate Robinson were the best PG option on the market to tandem in the backcourt with Shump or Pablo.
This way we didnt have to resign JR.smith unless it was a sign and trade with a team under the cap.

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Originally Posted by Kiyaman

Yes, it was based on ur thread, but more on Felton being our starting-PG.
Pablo only have one year experience on the many NBA PG, and NBA Headcoaches. Pablo showed his best dominating skills on offense/defesne lastseason when we moved him to combo-guard.
Beno is a decent defensive PG that may gell well with Shump in the backcourt. But u cant forget the Kings got PG-Toney Douglas defense to replace Beno. Or that Felton best season in the NBA as a PG had tandem up with PG-Toney Douglas relentless defense in the backcourt for 24 minutes per game.

Felton average 35 minutes of playingtime as a starter on the Bobcats since his rookie season, and never enhance his skill-level higher within 5 seasons as a Bobcats.
We were suppose to sign a PG that will challenge Felton's PG skills for minutes in each 48 minute game. Which Jennings or Nate Robinson were the best PG option on the market to tandem in the backcourt with Shump or Pablo.
This way we didnt have to resign JR.smith unless it was a sign and trade with a team under the cap.

and now because of this decision by the Knicks, we will stay mediocre at the PG position.

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Originally Posted by knicksince 93

I see yall starting to cling to each other. That what happens when most people on the forum posts are starting to oppose yall. You need allies to help with the same argument when its a losing one. I can dig it.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

You never had an argument to begin with and who was losing anything? None of my points were rebutted.
You're showing a lot of envy and patheticness.
Allies? Kiyaman and I use to post on a Knicks forum before joining this one.

[edited for insults]

Originally Posted by Kiyaman

Metro .... Chill, ur first post was valid to stir up members to respond twice to this thread.
Their response was to push Metro's emotional button for their anger at Beno's comment. It worked.

Beno's comment was indirectly aimed at Woodson, Melo, and JR (only) .. it was a simular comment that Marcus Camby made on the Denver Nuggets after being swept 0-4 in the first-round in the 2007-8 postseason games by Lakers. The aftermath of Camby's comment in 2007-8 got Camby traded to the low-low LA Clippers 2 months later, for nothing in return.
Camby avg 15 rebounds, and 2.5 blocks in that series.

The highlight last statement is what the Knicks lack the moment Melo join the Knicks team.
The 2010-11 (Amare) Knicks started the season winning off of team-defense & team rebounding, they lacked scoring-power from the SG position. It was like Amare came to the Knicks bringing HC Gentry system. We receive an above average in team-D and team-Reb from Mosgov/Turiaf/Amare/W.Chandler/Gallo/Fields/Walker/Douglas/Felton to have a 29-26 record team before the Melo trade.

Beno Udrih is 31 yrs old with 9 yrs in the NBA, having 7 yrs in the Western Conference playing against oponents Melo & JR on the Denver Nuggets. Beno have 3 yrs exp of being the backup PG of the NBA number #1 best strategic HC Pop in the bussiness, Beno received two Championship Rings knocking off the Melo Denver Nuggets twice in the first round 4-1, in 2005 & 2007. The Melo Denver Nuggets had no team-chemistry, no team-defense, and no team-rebounding in both of their series vs the San Antonio Spurs.

The most important thing about Beno's comment on winning a Title .. is how will HC Woodson react at giving Beno playingtime this upcoming season for mentioning three major things the Knicks were poor at last season?
How will Melo react to Beno's statement of MVP Duncan's 30 point game, then 10 point game to keep the team Gellin to get a winning chemistry? and last but not least how will JR.smith react to Beno's comment on team-defense?

Metro .... When the HC focus all his attention on Team-Defense, and strong cumminication on the defensive-end here are the top-winning Knicks-players .. Tyson Chandler, Kenyon Martin, Amare, Tyler, Meta, Shump, Pablo, and Beno.
When the HC only focus on a halfcourt-setting of ISO-ISO offense, then everything in ur first post is true...

Beno is may be majorly concerned with the potential of this team not moving the ball enough, iso play and lack of interior defense and lack perimeter defenders like Felton, Smith, Hardaway Jr. and CJ Leslie. (I hate to bring up rookies, but these guys were lazy defenders in college and rookies tend to be bad defenders their first season unless your name is Iman Shumpert)

The MWP signing for the Knicks was the best thing to happen, offensively he's streaky and efficient (great, just what we need) BUT he's still a defensive specialist. Not the same defender he use to be (maybe because he lacked motivation? was like a child in LA having fun and enjoying Cali life).

Our interior defense still poses no threat and I believe the Knicks will get punished for that. Our best shot blocker is Kenyon Martin and he's 6"9 and really at the last season or 2nd to last season of his career. We'll be asking A LOT from him to hold down our defense.

metro, can you slow it down with the personal insults? let's just keep the talk civil.

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