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Shinn, Charles, 1914-1998

SHINN

INTERVIEW: July 23, 1981
INTERVIEWER: Neil Leighton
INTERVIEWEE: Charles Shinn [Flint, Michigan]
SHINN: In the beginning...of course...what do you want, just the
aftermath or the...?
LEIGHTON: What I would like to start with is when did you end up in
Flint? When did you first come to Flint?
SHINN: Well, we...my father worked in Flint during World War I. And then
we went back north. I was born up north. I was born in Antrim County.
And we went back north after World War I. And we...my father was
blacklisted from the sawmill operation in Pellston, largely because of
the mayor of the town, who was Beatrice Churchill's father. His name was
George McRae. He was the mayor of Pellston, and he was superintendent of
the sawmill, a big, handsome, husky man who...they called him King
George. It was thought that his word was law. Most people respected it
as such. Beatrice was the oldest daughter, I believe, in the family.
There were a number of boys who were very athletic. Beatrice was the
oldest daughter and after her mother died when she was in her...oh,
around ten or twelve, I believe, he married the mother's cousin or the
mother's sister. And Beatrice gave the McRae family a rough time; she
was rather a rebel. She married a guy by the name of Clyde Mayo who was
part black. She became the telephone operator and allegedly run sort of
a business in the telephone office. She and another individual who was
from the other extreme, from the people who were supposed to be on the
town, which was a very bad thing at that time, to accept any kind of
public assistance.
LEIGHTON: Right.
SHINN: She and Fern Steiner allegedly had some sort of a business going
there at the telephone...or in the area of the telephone office, one of
the downtown buildings.
LEIGHTON: I know Pellston well, by the way.
SHINN: Oh, you know Pellston.
LEIGHTON: Oh, yes, I do.
SHINN: Well Pellston happens to be my favorite little town. I don't know
why. It's the most out of the way; it's flat, cold in the winter and hot
in the summer.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: And yet it was where I was as a youngster. I lived...from Flint,
my father went to Pellston and got a job in the sawmill there. By the
way, he was a Mennonite minister at one time.
LEIGHTON: Oh, I see.
SHINN: And he always was an ordained minister and remained a minister
until he died. But he was a working minister, which is not uncommon in
the Mennonite church.
LEIGHTON: He didn't...you say he was blacklisted from the saw mill, but
he wasn't blacklisted in Flint at all.
SHINN: He had difficulty getting back into Flint...work in Flint, later
in 1927 as a result of that, in fact.
LEIGHTON: As a result of the...
SHINN: I think partly as a result of that and partly as certain conflicts
that he had found himself in the Mennonite Conference in the church.
There was an individual who had once been a minister. I can't think of
his name; I have been trying and trying a long time. He'd once been a
minister in the Mennonite church and became a...I believe a plant manager
in Buick. There had been a dispute over this man's womanizing and he had
been kicked out of the church and my father happened to be on the
opposite side, very much against him. And it was thought, and this is
surmised, that he had something to do with, a liaison with Pellston and
all of what's making it difficult for my father to get a job here back in
1927. But the reason my father was blacklisted in Pellston was not
because of any union activity or anything. But one Saturday the mill
only worked five hours. And in the afternoon my father started over to my
grandparents’ place, who lived across the tracks. We lived on the east
side up on sand hill and my grandparents lived just a short distance
across the tracks in about the center of Pellston. And he had started
over there. And behind my grandparents was an open area and a path
across, from Indiantown...what we called Indiantown, which was the
northwest corner of the town where there were more Indians than whites
lived. And my father noticed a...some sort of a group in the field in
this path. And they were cheering and having quite a time. And he
walked over there and here was George McRae, who was the constable, the
mayor, the superintendent of the sawmill, taking a supposedly drunken
Indian to jail. They had just a little, small, not more than ten by
eight place they called the jail. And they'd throw drunks in there, and
often they wouldn't build a fire or anything, just lay them in there
overnight and let them out in the morning. But he was taking this little
fellow, who was an Indian, to jail. And he would pick him up and throw
him and kick him and everybody was cheering; this was great sport to be
playing with a drunken Indian. And the Indian was smiling and laughing
and it appeared taking part in the thing. But it was obvious that he was
at a terrible disadvantage and he was being made a fool of. My father,
being a very religious man, a very quiet, sincere sort of an individual.
And he was rather a small man, about five, eight and a half maybe, and
always skinny. And McRae was a husky man, a well built man, a handsome
man, who had...who ruled Pellston completely. His word was law. And
father stepped between McRae and the Indian, and he said, "George, the
next time you strike him you're going to have strike me first." And this
was a serious embarrassment to McRae, whose authority never was
challenged. And so he picked up the Indian and carried him and put him
in jail. And father came home, and I was the only one at home at that
time. Toward evening he came home. I remember it was a bleak fall day.
And father came home and he was all shook up. He told mother what had
happened, and she went into hysterics. She said, "You'll lose your job.
My goodness, the Indian was drunk. Why didn't you mind your own
business?" And we had my grandparents on her side; my grandparents
Williams were living with us. There were five of us children. My
youngest sister wasn't born until the next summer. And so in the course
of the discussion...I was probably eight or nine...I was nine or
ten...probably nine at the time as I recall it. But, anyway, in the
course of the discussion, she had said, "George, you will lose your job;
the family will starve!" WhatI mean this is a stupid thing to do. And
he made the statement then...and I recall it as plain what would happen
today..."I don't care if my family does starve, I'm not going to stand by
and watch a man abused even if he is drunk!" Well, the...this is the one
thing I remember about my father. My father and I never were very close.
I never was close to my father. But this is one thing that I was always
very proud of. Then the thing was dropped and never discussed again in
the family, never mentioned again. But Father the next Monday went back
to the mill and he was given his time and he couldn't get a job around
Pellston. He worked in a gristmill some that winter and he went to
Detroit the next summer and worked in a gas plant in Detroit. And then
when my grandfather died, he had to come back up; my grandfather died in
the spring. Then my youngest sister was born in August; he had to come
back then. And finally he determined that we would have to move out of
Pellston. So they made arrangements to move to Flint. But he'd come
down here looking for a job before he moved, but he hadn't been able to
find one. But his relationship with the church and all, why, they
assured him that he'd get a job. And he came down and the church helped
us through that winter pretty well while he was trying to get a job.
Finally through the intervention of an elder in the church, with this
very individual that we believe was blacklisting him, he finally got a
job in Buick. And this was an interesting part of my introduction to the
class struggle, as far as...
LEIGHTON: Sure.
SHINN: Then father was...while father was very conservative on religious
lines...he was always was pro-union and pro...it was an unusual thing.
And on my mother's side they were rock-ribbed Republicans. In fact, as
my sister was researching the Williams clan, she suspects...Williams is
such a common name it's hard to tie down the different branches...but she
suspects a Williams family in New Jersey that fought on the side of the
Tories in the Revolution were denied their property after the Revolution
and fled for their lives to Canada. And they're very staunch
Republicans, and my grandfather Stokes on my mother's side fought in the
Civil War. All through entire clan, they came from Ontario; they're
still staunch Republicans, most of them. There's a few exceptions. And
they're very religious in a fundamentalist fashion. But that's a little
bit of background as to my...why I react to the situation here as I did.
It had a great deal to do with it I think. My grandfather Shinn was
always a...for the underdog. My grandfather Williams, who was my
favorite grandfather by the way, but always wanted to be identified with
the people that were important.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: He didn't have a lot of money, but he was often a foreman in the
lumber woods and a very jolly person who could tell beautiful stories.
But as I look back, I see that he was politically very conservative. But
anyway, on my father's side it was quite the opposite. They were...and
it's still the same way...it's a long family story. But anyway, back
when we finally...I went through school here to high school. But I
graduated up north. I missed a year as a result of the Depression.
Father finally lost his job and we went back north. And then I was in
the CC's during the early thirties after I graduated from high school in
nineteen...in the CCC's...
LEIGHTON: Yes, Civilian Conservation. When did you graduate from high
school?
SHINN: In the spring of 1934. And I went into the CCC in the fall of
1934. I'd missed a year; I was eighteen when I graduated. I would have
been seventeen if I hadn't missed the year.
LEIGHTON: So you graduated from up north, although you had gone to school
here in Flint.
SHINN: I'd gone to school...both Northern and Central. And I transferred
from Central...come back down to start in Central again, thinking I
wanted to finish my high school in Flint. And I was working for my room
and board and going to high school in Flint. And that got rough, so that
I was ready to go back north and finish school up there, which I did.
Anyway, then into the CC's for a year, with three C's, and then banging
around trying to get jobs. I finally...I worked for a year at the
Pontiac State Hospital. Then I got a job at the Herd Lock Company in the
fall of ‘36. And that...we were locked out there because they had
organized.
LEIGHTON: Was that in Flint?
SHINN: That was in Almont. Herd Lock Company. They moved to Adrian.
They locked the doors one night. Then I came to Flint and because of a
little union experience there and the lock out, I became very interested
in the union here. And my brother was here, by the way. He was working
in Buick (older brother) and he was a very astute student of politics.
At that time he wasn't in any sense identified with any group, but he was
very keen...had a very keen mind. As a matter of fact, I wish he were
living. He would be a better man to interview than me, because he was
very deeply involved in the union struggles here and played an important
role, not a leadership role, although he was a committeeman for a number
of years, chairman of his plant in Buick.
LEIGHTON: Was your father supportive of?
SHINN: Well, my father's always been supportive of struggle.
LEIGHTON: Oh yes.
SHINN: He's always been supportive of any kind of struggle. And this was
a contradiction...in...
LEIGHTON: Yes. But I'm just curious that when push came to shove he
was...
SHINN: In fact, even at the point when I was thrown out of the plant,
why, he was very indignant. And he made the comment, "They wouldn't have
thrown him out." They might not have; but it wouldn't have been because
of his physical struggle, but because of his moral determination. He was
a very self-righteous man. He believed he was right. And he believed he
was right when he was defending the Indian. He believed...he lived a
very, very austere life. In fact, I don't know of any human being that
was more rigid in his own standards. But he didn't project those
standards onto others. He has some very individualistic and definite
philosophies about righteousness. He had a lot of contradictions in his
positions, to me. He was a conservative on one hand and a
very...well...had a very good attitude toward people, nothing in the way
that your fundamentalist...the rigidity with which the
fundamentalist...he never believed in capital punishment. He never
believed in...he was always, always...this is one thing that I got from
my father that I pride...was he was in the Shinn clan. From my
grandfather's side, they almost instinctively befriended the underdog.
Whoever the underdog was they took their position, which, in my opinion,
was usually a good position, a pretty good instinct to follow.
LEIGHTON: They never had any trade-union experience.
SHINN: They never had any trade-union experience that I know of. I've
often wondered if maybe some branch of the Shinn family came from
Wales...in the British Isles. And I've often wondered if maybe they
didn't have mining experience and the like, way back. But I've never
been able to establish it. Because of their strong commitment to the
labor movement, they always took the side of the workers, and usually the
most radical. And father was never pro-Communist in any sense, but being
pro-underdog he had a lot of questions about the people who were the
anti-Communists. And it made him raise questions that often times caused
him to take a position that others would question. But this is just a
little of the background that might indicate why my family has been very
progressive. It's not just me, in fact, others are more consistent in
their position, I think. But, anyway, after being in the CCC's and then
bouncing around and going to work for the Herd Lock Company and having
the experience of being locked out and coming back here and the
organizing of the labor movement is beginning...intensely. My sister has
gone to some classes that Roy Reuther taught. She had gone to a summer
college in Hillsdale where she had run into certain progressive elements
at a college that was being financed, I think, by some government agency
at that time. It could have been the WPA, the Works Progress
Administration; they did a whole number of programs for artists and the
like.
LEIGHTON: Now this was in ’34-‘35?
SHINN: This was in ’34-‘35, yes. This was a radicalizing experience.
And then when the strike came along, we were just automatically on the
side of the workers. I didn't think they had a chance to win against
General Motors. I thought probably it was premature. And there was a
lot of discussion. The people in the Mennonite Church almost one hundred
per cent were opposed to the union. A few exceptions...they were noted
because they were exceptions...
LEIGHTON: Was there a large Mennonite community in Flint, then?
SHINN: It wasn't large, but probably in the membership close to two
hundred total membership.
LEIGHTON: And you were back in Flint from the triple C's.
SHINN: Back in Flint from the C's and from Almont. I'd come back here to
live with my brother; my folks were still living up north, but I lived
here with my brother who was working here.
LEIGHTON: You were hired in Buick, then?
SHINN: I hired in Buick right after the strike in March.
LEIGHTON: Oh, okay, so you weren't working in the plant, that's right.
SHINN: I wasn't in the plant during the time of the strike. And my
brother at Buick finally had to close down. And so my brother and I were
very, very active at the Pengelly Building, picket lines and completely
innocent as to the alignment of forces.
LEIGHTON: Okay, that's what I wanted to get to, because in ‘34...your
brother's already working in Buick, right?
SHINN: Well, in thirty...yes, about that time, yes.
LEIGHTON: And in ‘34 was when they were thinking of having that strike in
Buick. And the A F of L left them just hanging out...
SHINN: Oh yes, this was very much part of our discussions.
LEIGHTON: Yes, I was gonna say it must have made an impression on him.
SHINN: It made a very definite impression. And there were some very,
very spooky times in that period in which...well, at one time they
had...well, you referred to it in...what's his name?
,
LEIGHTON: Keeran.
SHINN: Keeran's book. At one time they had the rumor that the Communists
were going to take over Flint, back in 1933 or ‘34. The police made
sure that if more than three people would stop on any corner in Flint and
talk they would break it up right away. There were all kinds of
vigilante elements organized. There were plainclothes policemen around.
Certain dates the Communists were supposed to take over. It was all part
of a scare program to frighten people from becoming associated with any
progressive or unionizing effort. But then we were very...we got to know
the various leading individuals in the strike on casual terms. And then
after the strike and after I had worked in Buick and there were some very
interesting events that took place during and after the strike...this
period when there were several sit-down strikes. I was involved in
closing down plant 40 shortly after I was in and gotten hired and going
down to a meeting in which supposedly the Martin forces were going to
throw Bob Travis out of it. And so we went down to make sure nobody was
thrown out. It was a big meeting; it was entirely a Travis meeting, it
turned out to be, because the others, once the thing was...but we simply
closed the plant down and went down...which was obviously a violation of
the contract.
LEIGHTON: Sure.
SHINN: But these kind of actions, the sporadic actions, as noted in your
paper, were what built the union. There wouldn't have been a union if
there hadn't been a whole number of...
LEIGHTON: Wildcats.
SHINN: Wildcats.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: The wildcats played a very important role. And the reaction to
the wildcats on the part of many people largely resulted on the part of
progressives from their failure to really know what was going on at the
bottom and in the plants. And from the Martin group and the more
conservative element and their lack of being able to exercise dictatorial
control, it was very...
LEIGHTON: I'm going to get to that because you're right, that's a key
part and it's a part we know very little about. But coming up to the
strike itself, there's several questions that you've raised that come
about as a result of that. One is your brother working at Buick...and
were you working by that time in Flint in ‘35?
SHINN: No, I was working most of the time out of Flint at that time. I
was back in Flint every little bit, but I wasn't closely associated with
Flint.
LEIGHTON: Because it seems to me that in order for progressive people and
so on to play a role they have to have established a pretty good network
of friends and so on, to communicate with them. Did...can you recall
some of the people that you spent time with and spoke with who were
discussing much the same thing as you as unions...any blacks, let's say?
That would have been quite a revolutionary stroke in Flint in the
thirties.
SHINN: Of course in the thirties the blacks were not really a big factor
in the strike. The blacks came to the union after the union was
organized and the CIO nationally and all the way through took a very good
position on the question of racism. I think it's one of the positions
that there was more unity than in any other decisive and important
aspect. And they played a role that was...the CIO in its
entirety...almost, what I mean of course there were exceptions, played a
role in fighting against racism and for the equality of workers that to
this day has a tremendous influence on Genesee County. The Genesee
County Fair is different than any other fair in the whole state.
LEIGHTON: Why is that?
SHINN: They have a lot of blacks involved in the operation of the fair.
The fairs elsewhere have all been stayed in the old, hard, conservative
business, political grip.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: In Genesee County they have to recognize that they can't do that.
They can't get away with it. There are many things about Genesee County
that date from the struggles of the thirties. The Workers' Alliance, of
course prior to the UAW, played a very important role in the organization
and before and after...
LEIGHTON: Yes, were you involved with the Workers' Alliance at all? Do
you know some people that were?
SHINN: I wasn't, I wasn't, but it...I was constantly hearing of it and
the organization of the unemployed councils and the like began, of
course, prior to the strike. And they went on after the strike and the
UAW played a very bad role in disrupting them and trying to take over
their organizations. It was a very unfortunate aspect of development
because this was a very positive organization in Flint. And not near
enough has been dealt with...and I wish...in fact, it won't be long until
it will be very difficult to deal with. But the role of the foreign-born
in Flint was great.
LEIGHTON: What do you know...see that's what we're trying to patch
together. What do you recall?
SHINN: I get this mostly from...see, I married a woman whose parents
were...her mother was Polish, her father was Serbian. He was...they were
both from Europe. He was back in the coalmines in Illinois, came over
here as a fourteen-year-old to pick up gold off the streets of America
and come back and buy land in Yugoslavia. He was a...he got in with
Serbs here. I'm not sure whether he was...he always claimed to be a
Serb. That was a popular nationality with him...he identified with the
Serbs here. But from where he was born...I think he was born in Croatia,
which is the Catholic part. He always identified with the Eastern
Orthodox Church, until he became a real radical and went against all
religion. But he was one of the most wonderful individuals. He was part
of the early organization of the union here. And he did a lot of
distributing of pamphlets, was in jail many times, he was one of the most
unusual men I've ever known in my life. And always just a rank and
filer, but a very intelligent man, a very well-informed man. He couldn't
read and write English, but he was...he always made his own moonshine and
was, oh, a powerful man. He had such tremendous hands. And he was...he
played a role that is completely unrecognized as far as the...and this
was true among many, many of the foreign-born. Goodness sakes, during
the strike they filled their homes with people that come in and supported
the strike from Toledo and elsewhere...people sleeping on the floor.
They played a very important role in furnishing food. And many of them
that turned out to be real conservative later on were very pro-union.
They had had union experience somewhere in Europe or some sort of
training. They knew how to organize and they were...they'd get out
literature and they would face the police. They had a certain courage,
and the experience that made them distinctive. And this Mike, Mike
Radeka, in fact he always had...his family always a little ashamed of him
because of his drinking and the like. But I was very proud of him. And
Joe Devitt knew Mike real well. The role of the foreign born, I think,
in Flint was probably in the early stages, decisive. I think without
them, I don't think we'd ever been able to have won in ‘36 or in ‘37. I
think the strike could not have been successful without their very...they
had a commitment and an experience that was totally lacking here.
LEIGHTON: Isn't there a Radeka, must be your age, that's still alive,
lives in Florida now? Who was up here...I don't know whether he's named
Mike or Steve or something like that?
SHINN: George Radeka.
LEIGHTON: George, that's it.
SHINN: George became very corrupted, not in a vile sense. But
he...George had a lot of experience. You could draw a lot from George.
Have you ever met George?
LEIGHTON: I met him.
SHINN: What kind of a...probably he didn't give you a very good
impression.
LEIGHTON: No, it wasn't that at all.
SHINN: George is a great guy. But George never read, never...and he was
always ashamed of his dad...because of his dad. And his dad was rough on
George. But his family, to this day, are basically loyal to the labor
movement. And the mother was a real rock. She was very...she was almost
puritanical in her reaction to her experiences. And she had a rough
time...large family. And Mike was in and out of jail for various
reasons. He never done anything but what it was based on struggle. But
he did a lot of things that were rather stupid. And you know, we all do.
LEIGHTON: Sure.
SHINN: And especially when you're faced with...well, I remember one time
he was...he didn't come home. And my mother-in-law called up and my wife
kind of half embarrassed like, she says, "I know where he is...he's in
jail." And I said, "Oh, I don't believe so." And she said, "Oh, he's in
jail. When he doesn't come home, he's in jail; that's all there is to
it." And so, I called up the jail and sure enough he was there. I went
down and paid the twenty dollars and oh he was so embarrassed. He says,
"Oh, son-in-law." He had stole a couple pieces of cheese out at
Hamady's. And you know what I mean, he was so...and he got away with
most of his little. And I said to him, I said, "Well, what are you
embarrassed about?" He said, "Well, what will my son-in-laws think?" I
said, "Well, what the hell do you care what they think?" I said, "The
thing that makes me mad is that it was a couple pieces of cheese; what
the hell's the matter with you?" And he was embarrassed and he...but
he'd do these things. And he could deal with the police because he was
foreign-born; he could put on these little acts. And in the plant he
could do it and get information and carry information that was invaluable
because he was a dumb foreigner; he didn't know anything.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: But he was a very smart man. And he used to tell me, "If I had
your education..." what he would do. I said, "If you had my education
you would be just as stupid as I am." But he meant that I could read and
write and express myself in what he considered to be a more clear
fashion. But I thought he...I don't think anybody could express their
thoughts any better than Mike. And I don't think anybody ever had any
better relationship with working people. He did a big job of organizing
during the strike. He had a very good working relationship with the
Parish family, for instance. In fact, he's the one that organized them
into the progressive movement, into the labor movement.
LEIGHTON: Tell me a little bit about that, because the Parish family is
not one that you would normally think of as being progressive...from the
South.
SHINN: No, they came from Alabama; they were not progressive. In fact,
their close relationship in the unemployed struggles and the struggles
for survival during the early days of the Depression, before the union
was what...and they were...oh, they didn't like that old foreigner that
come around and bring them papers and things. They thought he was...but
he just kept coming around and being friendly and finally they developed
a very close family relationship. And Delia used to tell how she
reacted. She wished he would mind his own business. He was just a
“Commune-ist,” she would call it. And the Parish family wasn't the only
family. He developed contacts in the south end that were very broad.
And people respected him because he was a very convincing talker.
LEIGHTON: What would he distribute to them?
SHINN: Oh, he'd distribute union leaflets, the Daily Worker, everything.
Nothing that he thought was right was beyond his...he wasn't afraid to
take a position. And while he was not a member of the Communist Party
ever, he was very pro-Communist, because of his experience in the mines.
And if you've been down through southern Illinois, there's a country with
the mining areas with a rich history of struggle. And we drew very
heavily from southern Illinois here. Men like John McGill. John McGill
was one of the really, really best in...and of course alcohol destroyed
John McGill and destroyed a lot of them. Jimmy Widmark.
LEIGHTON: John McGill is still around.
SHINN: John McGill is a great guy, but John McGill was very seriously
compromised by the drinking habit. And John was a great speaker. He had
a tremendous influence in Buick and throughout the labor movement and
took...generally took a good position. He was not thrown by the anti-
Communist hysteria. Although he was never...he was never a Communist.
And I think for good reasons. I think he knew too much about the
Communists when he came here already, you know, to become... I became a
Communist, and I learned a lot about the Communists...in ‘39. But John
McGill recognized the factional dangers that existed in political
groupings and while nobody can and I think John McGill would recognize
the very important role the Communists played. I think there were
certain very definite deficiencies in their ability to grasp the
situation here. I think too much of it was the leadership from New York
and Detroit, even.
LEIGHTON: I wanted to ask you about that, because you have already
provided me with really something that I hadn't been fully aware of, and
that is people like Mike Radeka going out and just spreading the word,
not necessarily as an agent of a political party.
SHINN: No, no, he wasn't an agent of anything. He was just a man with
strong commitments.
LEIGHTON: Right. And probably there were others doing much the same
thing.
SHINN: Oh, yes, oh, yes. There were a number.
LEIGHTON: I can't imagine the Evanoff's Bakery being a place where you
only discussed flours.
SHINN: No, Mike Evanoff played a very important role in there; and
largely through his parents, the influence of his parents.
LEIGHTON: Sure. But I'm curious about that because one of the things
that has come out of this is, of course, as Keeran's book points out and
I think rightly so, the Communists did play a leading role. They had the
experience.
SHINN: They played a very important role. They sometimes overemphasized
their role, because it was much broader, you know it was a broad
movement, really broad. And the Communists have never really been broad;
they've never been able to, because they never really established that
kind of a base.
LEIGHTON: That's what I wanted to get at...and that is, not just the
Communist Party but something unique. The chemistry begins to change in
Flint, not by an act of God but by a lot of work, like Mike Radeka and
others. Were you around when the United Front or whatever it was called,
the technical term for it, was established in Flint?
SHINN: Yes, I was very aware of that and not so much an active part of it
as a part of the progressive faction in it.
LEIGHTON: How was that put together? These people with very intense
passions put this together.
SHINN: It's amazing. The association of...you didn't mention the
Association of Catholic Trade Unions in your paper. They played a very,
very positive role in early stages.
LEIGHTON: This would have been the O'Rourkes.
SHINN: The O'Rourkes and the Fitzgeralds and the Ryans and the...oh, you
could name any number of them. And this was the main alliance that
finally catapulted Reuther to power...was his alliance with the ACTU.
They became...and I think this was where the Communist Party made some
very serious errors, and the left-wing progressives in general, which
were broader than the Communist Party. But I think that some bad
decisions were made at the time of the Cleveland convention in which
unity was given a distorted idea. Their idea of unity was a mechanical
thing, not real unity.
LEIGHTON: Now the Cleveland convention was in the summer of ‘36.
SHINN: Yes...no, no, thirty...when was the Cleveland convention? It was
probably ‘39, I think, the Cleveland convention, when Mortimer could have
been elected president.
LEIGHTON: You're talking of the UAW convention.
SHINN: UAW, yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay, I'm sorry. That was when R. J. Thomas was elected.
SHINN: The break...well, the Finnish war was another contributor. But
the break...the real factional struggle, when the thing became
bitterly...a bitter struggle between the most progressive elements
that...in which Communists took part...I wouldn't say that Communists
even led...often were developed around these issues of unity. What I
mean, I think that at that time many of the people in the ACTU had a
better concept of unity than people that were members of the Communist
Party. I think Mortimer had a very good concept of it. But I think he
was overruled by somebody, I don't know who. I have no idea. And I
think Travis had a very good working relationship with the ACTU. I
think he recognized their strength. And one thing Travis never did, with
almost all of the leading element, all of the Communist faction, was he
never became paranoid about the Trotskyites. He recognized that some of
them were playing a very disruptive role and he recognized that
nationwide that was characteristic. But he also recognized something
that I insisted on right from the beginning, and I was just a...I was
nobody. But when, back in 1939 or in that time period there was an order
out that any Communist that associated with Trotskyites would be
expelled. And I said, "Shove it." I sympathized with the Trotskyites.
And nobody is going to pick my associates. And I got away with it
because I had a Mennonite self-righteousness. Guys like Harry Abramik
got expelled, who is still around Flint...a Polish guy that knows a lot
about the labor movement. And he's not a good friend of mine. In fact,
for fairly good reasons, he hates me. But if you were to get in touch
with Harry Abramik...
LEIGHTON: How do you spell it?
SHINN: He's a very hard guy to talk to; he's a very abrasive guy.
Abramik, A b r a m i k, I think it is.
LEIGHTON: Okay. (Conversation missing from tape at this point.)
SHINN: Nobody there. So I started back for home; I didn't live far. I
lived within walking distance during the war. And each step I'd take I'd
say "coward." Then I'd turn around and I thought, I'm going back; I
don't want to go but after all I'll go back. So I went back and there
was no one there and I thought this thing is supposed to be getting
started. So I begin to rationalize it and I started to go again. Then I
thought, no, I'll wait awhile. And a guy with white hair with a
briefcase came in all bubbles and friendly and shook hands and told me
who he was, "I'm so-and-so, secretary of the Michigan Council of
Churches, and what is your name?" And I gave him my name. And he said,
"And who do you represent?" And I said, "I represent the Communist Party
of Genesee County." And I thought the guy was going to faint. He turned
completely white; he lost all the red in his lips. He walked around and
fumbled papers for awhile and then finally, like all good professionals,
he got his composure back and it didn't seem to bother him a bit. And
the meeting came along and these other two that apparently were supposed
to come, they were having the same misgivings I had; they didn't want to
go. Because this...we knew the character of it and why we should be sent
there; it didn't make sense to us.
LEIGHTON: What was the formal title?
SHINN: It was Interracial Clinic. They were going to discuss the racial
problems in Detroit and as related to what to do in Flint to prevent this
kind of trauma. Well anyway, the thing come along. Finally a friend
that knew my sister came. She was the wife of a dentist, a black woman.
And I'd met her a couple times. My sister was not at all a Communist;
she didn't want to be identified with anything. She was liberal, but she
didn't want to be identified...she thought the worst thing that ever
happened was that her brothers had gotten mixed up with the Communists.
And she came along and I didn't want to press the fact that I knew her.
I just sat to myself like a good Mennonite, and thought "I'll bear this
thing out and go home." I didn't plan to have any part in it or
anything. But the more I knew the character of the meeting, the less I
wanted to be any way involved in it. Well, anyway, this smart
operator...this secretary of the Council of Churches, happened to be the
chairman of the meeting. I didn't realize he was to be the chairman of
the meeting. He called the meeting to order and by that time there was
twenty-five, thirty maybe more people there. And some of the...a lot of
the ministers, one who was a labor hack by the name of Lindsey, who was
from a Presbyterian church on the east side who was always being
represented as a pro-labor man, and others. I think the plant manager of
AC Spark Plug and some others of...supposed to be of distinction. And
then a black minister who was active in the YMCA came in. And he'd
always cut me down whenever I'd attend the youth council, the NAACP or
anything. He was no fool; he knew who I represented.
LEIGHTON: Yes, sure.
SHINN: And he didn't trust me; he didn't like me. He came, Davis did.
And we proceeded with...or finally the meeting started. And this guy
from the...secretary of the Council of Churches said, "Since many of us
are strange to each other here, I suggest we start from the opposite end
and each one get up and give their name and their organization they
represent." And I thought, "Oh, my God." Here I'm hooked; he's turning
the tables now. I'm not the one that's going to... And some of the
people that I knew were there; Davis was there and he wasn't fooled. But
I knew their attitude. And this woman that knew my sister and several
others; I knew that wouldn't go over very good. But I got up and I said,
"I'm Charles Shinn." Marie Wright turned around and recognized me. She
smiled a big smile because she recognized I was Edith's brother. And
then I said, "I represent the Communist Party of Genesee County." And
you should have seen that smile drop off her face. She just turned back
around; her husband was a dentist, she was a teacher. She just turned
back around and looked completely ahead. And I could see the contempt
coming from...oh, maybe it was imaginary on my part. But I could feel
it, anyway. And so the thing went on and they talked and they talked and
they talked. And there was nothing really to...so finally I thought,
well, maybe I should say something, after all. And I had a tremendous
advantage because of my experience in the Communist Party, experience in
the labor movement and all. And so I made a few comments. Oh, I went to
speak; nobody let me speak, they'd cut me right off. And finally, this
secretary of the Council of Churches who had appeared so befuddled
because I was there, he said, "Just a minute, now just a minute. This
young man had tried to speak two or three times and you always cut him
off. I want to hear what he has to say." So I made my little pitch and
was...I thought it was pretty good. Soon as I got done, Lindsey got up
and he just tore what I'd said to shreds, belittled everything I'd said,
and was playing his role very well, because he didn't want to be... He
was supposed to be a liberal and he didn't want to be associated. And he
wanted to make clear that they'd give him an opportunity to establish his
strong anti-Communist bias. And pretty soon he got real insulting.
Pretty soon the secretary of the Council of Churches said, "John, you're
all wrong. This young man's the only person here tonight that's made any
contribution at all." And I thought, "My God, what's happening?" And he
said, "In fact, I think you should have him on your committee, then maybe
you'd get busy and do something." And I thought, "For goodness sakes,
what's happening here?" And then Harry Abramik spoke up and he told them
what a bunch of hypocrites they were, and he really laced into them...was
very, very vulgar in his speech, but I enjoyed it, because I shared the
same sentiments. So he was more or less ignored. But then they went on
and they talked awhile. And finally, Berry Blassingame, the black guy
who had come, also from the same organization, he said, "I agree with
what the secretary of the Council of Churches said, and I think Mr. Shinn
should be on the committee. And I think action should be taken to see
that he is." He was trying to tie something now...I didn't want to be on
their committee, really. So the Council of Churches...the secretary of
the Council of Churches said, "How 'bout it, John?" (John Linsey was
head of this thing.) He says, "Can you make room for this young man on
your committee?" "Well, I guess so; I don't know why we can't." But I
never heard of it again. But anyway, this Davis who was there...and
after the meeting, Marie Wright came up and told me how much she agreed
with my remarks. And I thanked her. And then other blacks came around
and told me you can't trust these hypocrites; and they identified with
me. And this probably was the thing that kept me from serving on the
committee...was that different blacks came around, professional blacks,
mainly, and congratulated me on the remarks I'd made. And they were not
thrown by this Communist thing. While they didn't want to be identified
with it, they were not thrown by it. And this Davis came around, who had
always hated my guts. And he says, "Hey, Chuck, do you have a ride
home?" He said, "Ride with me." I didn't know him that well, but I
said, "Okay." So no sooner than I got in the car he said, "Do you think
they'll let you serve on that committee?" I said, "I don't know, I don't
know." He went on telling...he was real cynical about the whole thing.
He'd always worked with these groups, worked with the YMCA and all. He
was real cynical; and we had a long, long talk. And the guy was a pretty
decent guy, basically. But the thing he'd thought...and he told me, he
said he'd been in Indiana. And whites always would...these whites that
would take a pro-black position...when push come to shove they'd run for
cover. And he told me he'd admired what I'd said; it took a lot of guts
and he wasn't either pro- or anti-Communist. But he just didn't like
white people; he told me very frankly he didn't like white people, didn't
trust them, worked with them, had to work with them. He got what he
could and "to hell with them!" I appreciated that. But from that time
on, that guy was just as friendly as could be, because he recognized that
I was not just taking a position to take a position, but I was willing to
stand behind my position. And anyway, now, that was an awful long story
that probably doesn't have any relevance at all. But, anyway, that was
just part of the political structure that... And then again, I had the
same experiences later on in different ways in...when I was thrown out of
the shop in 1954, experiences with people that didn't agree at all with
my...what they perceived to be my political beliefs, but were the
staunchest of supporters. And this is characteristic of the working
class, I think, and the labor movement and beyond the labor movement,
even the various elements in the political structure. It's not any
simple, easy to analyze and understand relationship and process that goes
on. But I think we got lost someplace.
LEIGHTON: This helps fill in some of the blanks. One of the things is
the united front. How did the parties get together, since the Communist
Party probably came to Flint in any significance from nineteen...at least
according to Keeran, 1934 on, they have more of a little presence on the
ground than they did prior to that.
SHINN: I think the Communist Party played a very...the key role probably,
in fighting for a united front. This was where they did very well. And
the national leadership as well as the local leadership in which
they...the Socialists...they worked with Norman Thomas, they worked with
very broad elements within and they worked with the ACTU. They
emphasized the point that it wasn't the single issues you had to be
united on, that you could unite on, and not try...you didn't have to
agree with any particular program. You could have strong disagreements
and at the same time work to organize the people, work to organize the
union. And in this, I think that their role was exemplary and I think
they had some very expert leadership in Mortimer, especially, Travis as
well. And all the way through...then Weinstone who came from New York,
who was...
LEIGHTON: When did you first meet Will Weinstone?
SHINN: I really never met Will, but I've heard so much about him that I
feel that I've met him. I've heard about a meeting that they had at
Fosters, that's Lester Foster, the father.
LEIGHTON: Of Howard?
SHINN: Yes, during the strike. And things had gotten pretty...they had a
lot of problems. And the Mortimers and the Weinstones and the
various...they were looked to for leadership. Even John L. Lewis was
very conscious of the experience...of the Communists and these kind of
struggles and their connections. He didn't have any connection with the
foreign-born group, but he knew that he had determined to use the
Communists. And he respected their commitment. And at this meeting at
Fosters...my brother was there.
LEIGHTON: This was before the strike?
SHINN: This was during the strike. This indicates the part of their
united front role. And they were looked to for leadership in this role.
And they showed a lot of ability and a lot of humility in recognizing
that they didn't know the answers. Just because they figured the
Communists should know the answers didn't mean they did. And I remember
this one meeting...or hearing the story of this one meeting at Fosters
where they were running into big problems. And they didn't know what to
do. And at this meeting, while I'm sure that Walter Reuther was never a
member of the Communist Party, I don't think...some people say he was,
and he may have been, may have been given a...but I don't think he ever
was. But anyway, Walter Reuther was at this meeting that Weinstone was
at, at Fosters.
LEIGHTON: Walter, not Roy.
SHINN: Walter, not Roy. And I don't think...I'm sure Travis wasn't
there, none of the...because of the fact of not wanting to be closely
identified with the party. But Weinstone was there and several of the
top brass in the union were there. And they were threshing over some
problem of...and I wish I knew more of the specifics...I knew it at one
time, but I've lost it. Anyway, they finally turned to Weinstone, Bill
Weinstone and said, "Listen, Bill, what are we gonna do?" And he said,
"I don't know the answer, but let's call a meeting of the people in the
shop that are concerned with it. We don't know the answer, but by God
we'll come up with one." And this was the sort of role...it gave the
leadership a different...many, many people in positions of leadership
lose respect for the people. They don't recognize that in a time of
intense struggle that people react with much more wisdom than they're
credited with having. And so they had their meeting and they devised a
strategy; apparently it worked. But this was indicative of the way the
united front worked on that particular level. And the fact that...well,
I attended meetings during the period of the strike when they were trying
to organize people to take positions of leadership in the union.
Nobody... very few people had any confidence that they would be able to
follow the lead of these guys that were real operators. These
organizers, they looked to as being real, almost magicians. But once
they learned that they could, once they learned that this was not any
magic gift, but that they had the ability, many of them became very
arrogant afterwards and became notable leaders. But there was a real
dearth of leadership in which you had to just pick people and tell them,
"Listen, you're the committeeman; you've got this job." And inside of a
month's time they were acting like professionals and making a lot of
mistakes then, that they didn't make in the beginning. But this was
the... Without the united front, without the support of the foreign-born,
without the Communist Party, it's very hard to see how, at that time, the
union could have been organized in Flint.
LEIGHTON: The meetings that you went to...what was the nature of them?
Where were they held?
SHINN: Well, there were meetings at that time...there were still meetings
being held in basements, there were still blacked-out basement windows
because of police spying. There wasn't quite the security in regard to
checking people that attended the meetings when I came that there was
prior. Some of the meetings Travis tells about and all, and I'm sure
they happened because it was still very much in vogue. You know it gets
rather fascinating operating in a clandestine way. Some people continued
to do so after the necessity because they liked the...they got carried
away by the mysteriousness of it.
LEIGHTON: It was good theater. Bob would be the first to tell you that.
SHINN: Oh, Bob's an actor; Bob's a great actor and a great person who was
damaged somewhat by the adulation that was given him. But who in the
hell isn't? I attended many, many meetings when you get scared to death
you're going to be raided by the cops. I never attended a meeting that
was raided. I have been near them and I've been just avoided them, but I
never happened to get into one of those that were broken up by either the
cops or some organized opposition that just came in and created a
disturbance.
LEIGHTON: At these meetings, were the meetings primarily of people from
the various political groups or were they just workers within a plant
or...
SHINN: Primarily workers within the plant, with local leaders, primarily
the local leadership...this was the period of a great upsurge of hitherto
unutilized, untapped talent. You had your Lou Barrities who turned out
to be not much, but was a great parliamentarian. Your John McGill, of
course, John McGill wasn't in those meetings, but your Jimmy Widmarks and
your Howard Fosters and...these people come forward and showed a great
deal of skill and understanding...people that you didn't even realize
they had any education at all. You found out they were very well
informed people. And then as the blacks began to become involved you...
LEIGHTON: I wanted to ask you on that question...do you remember a fellow
from even before the strike, a fellow named Spotts, Jim Spotts?
SHINN: I remember the name, but I can't really place him.
LEIGHTON: I was wondering whether you did.
SHINN: No.
LEIGHTON: You leave because you're laid off at Buick after the strike.
Did you know Henry Clark?
SHINN: I knew Henry Clark. I knew Henry Clark. Henry Clark had a lot of
talent. And there was a Buchanan...what was his first name?
LEIGHTON: It began with a J, I think, wasn't it?
SHINN: I think so; anyway he was a very capable individual who had an
ability to speak with clarity and convince people.
LEIGHTON: Did you go to meetings where these fellows were?
SHINN: Oh, I was at meetings all the time. In fact, I became almost a
meeting addict.
LEIGHTON: Was it rare to find blacks and whites together in a meeting?
SHINN: No, it became more common. But it was a long time before the
white...other than the Communist...would be seen with a black too closely
or take a black to a restaurant or have a black visit their home. In
fact, it became quite easy to determine who the Communists were, because
they were about the only ones that invited blacks to their homes. And
they lived in white neighborhoods usually and in fact this was one of the
criticisms of me in 1954, by the neighbors, was that I had black people
visit my home, which automatically established me as a Communist.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: This has been a very, very difficult issue to deal with here. And
a lot of progress has been made; but there's still a long way to go.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember a fellow named Prince Combs?
SHINN: Oh, yes.
LEIGHTON: Were the meetings held over at his place?
SHINN: I never attended a meeting at his place.
LEIGHTON: He apparently played quite a role in organizing the foundry
workers, along with Henry Clark.
SHINN: Yes, he did. He played an important role.
LEIGHTON: And his wife, as well. I understand his wife is very ill now.
Was there anything else from that period...when you first started? You
must not have worked at Buick very long, did you?
SHINN: The first time it was a very...let's see about actually six
months, I guess, the first time. But it was a very important time for me
because it was the time when the union was just organized, when I began
to get the feel of things, when I saw the power of the union. The power
was almost...oh the power of the working people in Flint for the first
six months after that strike was something you could never really believe
without experiencing.
LEIGHTON: What were some examples of it that you recall most vividly?
SHINN: One example was that the police almost became non-existent. You
didn't even see them. They kept out of sight. They had been so...they
had made so many bad moves and they were so completely...by the working
people...so completely exposed and...what would you call it?
LEIGHTON: Discredited?
SHINN: Discredited, was the word I was looking for; I don't know why I
couldn't find it. They were so discredited that they kept pretty much
out of sight. And at those first six months...and there was unity, there
was a lot of unity, more unity than disunity. Had we had a leadership
that knew how to take advantage of that, there was an opportunity to
really make tremendous strides.
LEIGHTON: What were some of the things that they were trying to do that
you remember?
SHINN: Oh, there was a tremendous organizational move on the part of
every worker--the restaurant workers, the county workers. There was a
big upsurge of organization. There was quite a few...there was a
workers' theater that developed.
LEIGHTON: Oh, who was active in that?
SHINN: I think at that time that Kennedy Turner, who had had some
experience acting some place and several of the...I believe that Jack
Herrlich's wife was active in it. It was quite successful; it wasn't a
big thing, but it was an important development. You know these things
seem so normal and unimportant at the time and then the fact that they
were not reconstructed sooner makes them very vague.
LEIGHTON: What about athletic leagues, that kind of thing. Did the union
tend to take those over, and take them away from the IMA?
SHINN: Yes, the union did. George Radeka played a very important part in
that. They had a union athletic program.
LEIGHTON: Prior to that the IMA had run most of the programs.
SHINN: The IMA had controlled the athletic part quite tightly. And the
union became a serious competitor. I think a lot could be done in
researching the role of Mott in Flint. I think Mott played a much more
dual role than most people realize. For instance, it used to be very
common to go to Steadman’s and see Mott...
LEIGHTON: What was Steadman’s, a cafeteria?
SHINN: That's where we went, to Steadman’s.
LEIGHTON: Oh, okay, I remember.
SHINN: And to see Mott with a group of labor hacks. And I think he liked
to associate with these people, because I think he so overawed them with
his money and power that they didn't sponge on him. You know, workers
have certain...most people...his relationship with professionals was one
whenever they always wanted money. And he was a very tight guy; he wore
his pencils right down until he had to strip them with his fingernails,
and a very interesting individual. But one thing that has to be
recognized, and there's certain positives in Mott's behavior, was that
Mott stayed in Flint. He was the only real billionaire created by
General Motors that stayed here and made this his base. And Mott had
tremendous political savvy, far more than most people realize. He was a
very conservative Republican, but he knew where the real power lay. And
he always took the correct positions publicly, but he always maintained
strong contacts with the blacks. Edgar Holt, my God, is scared to death
of Mott. Yes, his wife worked for Mott. And when the blacks were
demonstrating in front of Smith-Bridgman's when that belonged to Mott,
Edgar Holt almost had convulsions because he didn't want to displease
Mott. And this was because Mott had exerted the power of his position
and his personality on Edgar Holt to the point where Edgar Holt feared
him more than he respected him. But Mott was a powerful character and
Mott probably was completely ruthless. Of course, with his first wife,
they always said he pushed her out of the window. She jumped out of the
window apparently and committed suicide.
LEIGHTON: Well, you've read the little excerpt from Hard Times, Studs
Terkel's book, where Mott wanted to shoot the workers out of the factory.
Frank Murphy was absolutely wrong, he said.
SHINN: Oh, yes. But this...for instance, Mott would be in Steadman’s.
And most of the workers that would take part in this were hacks, most of
them. But there were a few pretty good guys during the period of
unemployment after the strike that became involved in the Mott Foundation
sports program, which took over after the IMA became somewhat
discredited.
LEIGHTON: Okay, now we're on to my favorite topic. This was the
influence of Frank Manley, wasn't it?
SHINN: Frank Manley was Mott's hired hand, yes.
LEIGHTON: And was this the time then when Manley was putting together
this community education planning.
SHINN: Yes, but Mott was very much in charge. You go ahead and ask some
questions; I'm wandering all over.
LEIGHTON: Okay. This question of Mott is fascinating.
SHINN: I don't know as it's important at all, but I think it's been
neglected, maybe not, maybe others have raised it, I don't know.
LEIGHTON: No, they haven't.
SHINN: Course you know his background. He was elected mayor of Flint
1911 or 1912 to stem the Socialist tide.
LEIGHTON: To knock off Menton, who was a Socialist.
SHINN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Well, that's interesting to see, because I think...did that
continue? One of the questions, in case you had run into it, in the
public schools in Flint, and of course this would have been after you had
graduated. Did you notice any increase as the union in this six-month
period got stronger? Was there also a corresponding increase in this so-called
community education program, the Frank Manley program?
SHINN: I'm sure there was.
LEIGHTON: The visibility of Mott in the field of education paralleling...
SHINN: Mott reacted very, very expertly and he had the money to buy the
best equipment and brains to do it and very effectively. He countered
with a program that was not a frontal attack in any sense, but a dual
program that was completely unpolitical, or appeared to be so. It was
very political in its actual content. Mott had an understanding of Flint
that a lot of progressives didn't have and Mott never, never jeopardized
his power base here. And he didn't panic during the bank holiday in 1933
and he didn't panic during the strike situation. He was bitterly anti-
Roosevelt and the New Deal days and he was bitterly anti-union. But he
always maintained a certain perspective of reality that I think indicates
that he has been very effective in countering any great advance of the
labor movement here. And his son in New York may recognize some of these
things, but doesn't know what it was all about.
LEIGHTON: Did you personally ever encounter any of these kind of programs
and things?
SHINN: I didn't myself, but Bill Connolly was active with Mott. He
worked with Mott in the Manley program at the beginning.
LEIGHTON: Bill Connolly?
SHINN: Bill Connolly. He's the father of the William E. Connolly that
authored the book, Pluralism.
LEIGHTON: Yes, I know him.
SHINN: Do you know William E.?
LEIGHTON: Yes, and I know his father; we interviewed him.
SHINN: Oh, you interviewed...
LEIGHTON: Down in Florida.
SHINN: He had an automobile accident which changed his whole personality
back in 1952.
LEIGHTON: That's right.
SHINN: But he was a tremendous individual; he was just seventeen-eighteen
during the strike in Fisher Body. He was quite influenced by the
Trotskyites...in a positive influence in his case, because he
became...and he was one of my strongest supporters during the period I
went through in Fisher Body, a very loyal friend, a tremendous
individual, one of my...a person that I know...like Donnie Smeaton used
to say, that Scotchman, "I know him like I wheeled the ship to make him."
And I know Bill Connolly very well, and he was one of the most
intuitively clever organizers I've ever seen operate. He was able to do
things that...in the sense of knowing how to manipulate and manage people
which...he had a lot of arrogance along with it. But he was a very
clever individual, and basically a real good union man. I don't like
that word basically, I hear it so much. But he was a very fine human
being and a very intelligent guy. He was one of the real, authentic
products of Flint. But I want to tell you more about Bill Connolly. And
I told him this long before he was able to establish, or even thought of
establishing in Flint. But this man was his great-uncle.
LEIGHTON: Oh, my, oh.
SHINN: And his father was a very strong conservative, Bill's was. But
his father went back to Ireland, his father was James' brother, Thomas,
who finally got lost in the movement of the Irish people around. Anyone
that has tried to reconstruct the history of the Connollys, they lost
Thomas. Thomas apparently either came over himself or he sent his family
over during the time of one of the risings, prior to...one of the earlier
risings. Of course, James was executed in 1916. And he was active in
IWW. You probably know more about him than I do. But whatever, this man
was a man that I learned a great deal from. And I had the deepest
respect for him, and still do. I love Bill Connolly. Bill Connolly's a
guy that just almost always, without any intellectual preparation, was on
the right side. He wasn't fooled by the Trotskyites, he wasn't fooled by
the Communists. Of course, the Trotskyites had a lot more connection
with him than the Communists ever did. But he was very independent,
almost probably too much of an individualist for his own good. But he
was a great organizer and he could drive management right up the wall and
he had a lot of courage and a lot of just plain good working-class sense.
I'm sure you interviewed Joe Devitt.
LEIGHTON: Yes, we have to go back and talk to him some more.
SHINN: Were you able to get through? Joe's a very, very reserved guy,
but he knows a lot. I've never been able to draw anywhere near what I
know I could...but I know it exists in Joe. Joe's a good guy. You talk
to him about Mike Radeka. He may dismiss Mike as just nothing important.
But Joe has a much more serious view of things than Bud Simons, and he's
much more apt to be right. Joe is not a frivolous person at all; he's a
fine person. He's one that came from Grand Rapids, along with Simons,
and Walt Moore and...
LEIGHTON: And Jay Green.
SHINN: Yes, Jay Green. And they were very important. But you know,
putting the lid on the protest of the workers in Fisher number 1 changed
the whole character of Fisher number 1 union.
LEIGHTON: I wanted to ask you about that. You say, "Put the lid on." You
mean on the wildcat strike following...?
SHINN: The fifty-seven people that were fired.
LEIGHTON: When was this?
SHINN: That was back in 1937...summer or fall; I think it was late 1937
or early 1938. I'm not...but this was done to stop wildcat strikes.
LEIGHTON: Was it done with the connivance of the UAW or over the top of
it?
SHINN: I think it was done with the connivance of the UAW with
management. And I think the local leadership were involved in it. I
think the Proletarian Party played a somewhat negative role in this in
that they were very much sticklers for the word, for the purity of
theory, for the...a contract's a contract, you got to abide by it. I
never gave a damn about a contract. Bill Connolly never gave a damn
about a contract. Anybody that was ever successful on the bottom level
had to recognize that management had much more in any contract than the
union did, and you only used the contract when it was definitely to your
advantage. And as soon as they can get workers to become book- worms on
contracts and expert legalists, then they become very ineffective.
Because there's so much more there in just drawing from the enthusiasm
and the real problems of the workers and you have to...you know what I
mean, most of the grievances you win in opposition to the contract. You
win because you got the power there, because you can make management pay.
The last time I was penalized here not long ago and they were just
getting too nice to me. And I was feeling like I was being treated...you
know...and I was working with a group of young people on the second
shift. And I felt I was being made to look like some sort of a company
stooge. And in a situation like that, what do you do? What I mean, you
can't bounce on somebody's toe for being nice to you. And if the
problems aren't of a spectacular nature you can't...so you have to,
somehow or other get these people away from you. And I'm not a rude
person. Bill Connolly could have done it without any problem, but it was
a real major problem for me, because I do not like to be uncourteous to
people. And at the same time, I don't like to be made a sucker out of. I
don't like to be used. I was a relief man, it was nineteen...after our
big strike in 1969 and 1971 or 1972 in Fisher Body 2. I was a relief man
and they were doing a lot of things wrong, but management's clever. My
general foreman was a guy that at one time had been my alternate
committeeman when I was a committeeman...a nice guy, but a real bastard,
too. But he was always nice to me; he always treated me good. Well,
anyway, I was looking for an opportunity to really find something in
which I could state a position to get these guys off from being so
friendly and make them act right, because I didn't like their feigned
friendship. I knew it wasn't real and I didn't like it. Well, anyway,
he was experiencing production difficulties and so as a general foreman
he came and he corrected some work that I had had to let go because I
couldn't finish my job with that uncorrected. He corrected it and then
he asked me, "Now Charlie, get this." And I said, "I'm sorry, it's out
of my work area." Well it really wasn't but as far as I was concerned I
thought this was a good time to just make an issue of something. And I
figured I would be penalized and I figured I would lose the penalty. And
I never lost a penalty in my life; and I'd been penalized so many times
you could write a book on it. And I'd always been very careful; my
Mennonite righteousness stood me in good. I was always careful to make
sure that I could be right. Well, anyway, I wanted a penalty and I
thought, well I'm going to play this. I refused to do what he asked me
to do. I just simply said, "I just can't reach it." And this was just
an attempt on my part to show that a lot of things that have to be done
in the way of maintaining organizing in the shop have to be done with a
great deal of just leadership from the very bottom and just playing it
intuitively. You cannot organize anything according to a book; anybody
knows that, not even your classes in school. You have to develop a lot.
And yet there are always a lot of legalists, always a lot of people that
learn the book so well and they're really...they're clever. And they're
very useful. But they also can be a pain in the neck when they begin to
parade their cleverness and their intelligence, which really isn't
intelligence, more or less learning things by heart and applying
something in a very mechanical and unworkable way. But anyway, this guy
insisted that I get it and I just insisted that I just couldn't reach
it...just real quiet, no loud talk, no anything. So I knew I'd be called
to the office because I refused an order. And I didn't refuse an order
and yet I did refuse an order, you know. It was one of these things that
you could play with. And so I got called to the office and here was a
labor relations man that I'd also served on the union committee with
who...and you had a certain special distrust and animosity toward people
who had been active in the union and then became members of management.
And Ken Hayes was there with this labor relations man. So when I went
in...my committeeman was an alcoholic who was very...I didn't have too
much confidence in him; I liked him as a person, but I considered him a
political hack that I didn't have... So I said, "Listen, don't say
anything, just keep your mouth shut. Don't say anything." And so we
went in and so they...the general foreman explained it. He said,
"Charlie was polite, but he just refused to do it." I said, "I'm sorry,
I couldn't reach it." And just kept this petty little line. And they
had to penalize me Thursday night. And I liked a long weekend anyway and
I figured, I'll lose it. But what the hell. Well, anyway, they
penalized me; they sent me home. Here was a bunch of young guys; they
weren't especially union-conscious or anything. I had no idea what this
would do. I had no idea what the repercussions that would occur from it.
I didn't have that idea in mind at all. Well, I went up north and I had
a hell of a good weekend and was feeling damned good, and I no sooner got
back in the plant than a big Indian guy from Alabama, Cherokee Indian,
came over with a big smile on his face...one of the cleverest guys that
you can have in a working situation, because he just had an awful lot of
intuition. He could do things I could no more dare do than try to fly.
But anyway, he came over with a big grin on his face, he said, "By God,
did we give them hell after you left." And he said...he begin to tell
the things they'd done. He had the whole damn department stirred up, you
know...guys that had always gone along with management. And he'd gone
around and said Kenny Ray penalized old Charlie. Let's show him. And
they had to work two hours overtime that night; they got everything all
fouled up. They lost production. Now, this was not sabotage. That's
the first thing management will holler, sabotage. They just didn't do
those extra things that you have to do in any production. They just
simply quit cooperating; and this is the greatest...if people only knew
it...this is the greatest weapon working people have. All you have to do
is not do the extras, just do what you're told.
LEIGHTON: Do it by the book.
SHINN: Just stick by the book, then. That's one time to go by the book.
If you want to foul things up, start going by the book. And this is what
they did. And they had that so fouled up. And the next night they had
it equally fouled up. Once you lose this rhythm, it's the hardest thing
in the world to re-establish it. But it will come back, because people
like to do a good job. And they like to cooperate. It is a game to
begin with and it lasts sometimes much longer than it should and it can't
be controlled by the union, it can't be controlled by management. It's a
little dangerous because of the anarchistic factor in it. But it,
nevertheless, is very effective sometimes. And this is what was
happening back in the time of the...there was all kinds of little...and
they didn't have sufficient experience to go beyond the sit-down strike.
If they had had a little more experience, they could have struggled a
little more effectively without making themselves vulnerable to the
attack by management. But they didn't have the experience then; and they
did the only way they knew. And I'm sure there was tremendous untapped
talent that came into play there that created all kinds of problems for
management. And management knew this; that's part of the reason they
didn't press it any further than they did. Because they knew that
they...they were not fools; they knew people. And they knew that they
had run into something that they needed the union. And they often used
the union to settle a lot of their problems. They were very important.
LEIGHTON: You're right on something, and that's one of the...talking
about particularly the period after the strike of the wildcats. And the
argument has been made, the charge has been made, that the Communist
Party, particularly because of Travis and Krause and others were then
alleged and since probably known to be members. But the Communist Party
was accused as being the primary element in suppressing the work
stoppages, wildcats.
SHINN: They probably were.
LEIGHTON: Oh, I just wondered whether you found that to be the case.
SHINN: This embarrassed the leadership, because they couldn't quite...
Anarchy is dangerous...when it becomes widespread, which was true there.
It became something that they were not ready to cope with and they were
not aware of how inevitable and necessary a certain amount of that
was...that spontaneity in order to develop. You know, I'm absolutely
against anarchy; and yet, I'm for autonomy, I'm for a great deal of
freedom, I'm for...I don't believe in interposing my will on anybody
unless there's a reason. And this created a problem that they were not
prepared to handle. And I think likely that they played a role that made
them look like company stooges in many cases. It's so easy to get into
that bind, especially people who were stupid enough to follow what they
thought to be the Communist Party line.
LEIGHTON: You mentioned the fifty-seven who were fired at Fisher 1 in
this period right after the strike. Were they identified with any
particular faction, or were they just wildcatters?
SHINN: They were primarily just ordinary guys. There may have been an
agent provocateur among them, but there might not have been any. And
this was very unfair, because a lot of these people were in this thing
without...and a lot of them, no doubt, were doing the right thing.
They simply were in a situation where you had to do something and they
did all they knew to do.
LEIGHTON: And yet they weren't getting any leadership or being supported
by the leadership.
SHINN: They weren't getting the leadership; the leadership wasn't there.
They didn't know, and you have to know in order to lead. You have to
know where you're going.
LEIGHTON: So even the Simons, the Devitts, the Greens and so on weren't
able to do it.
SHINN: They weren't able to handle it and they were willing to sacrifice
good workers in order to save what they perceived to be their own image
of being leaders.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: And this...understand, I wasn't there...and certainly...but this
is what I have always surmised to be somewhat the situation, because
after that Fisher Number 1 always had a very tightly controlled union
that didn't have very much enthusiasm for struggle. They've had very,
very few strikes. And you cannot have a union organization if you don't
have periodic strikes. I somewhat agree with Jefferson in that you have
to have these occasional rebellions. Because this is where the workers
learn. In Fisher Number 2, this was one of the most backward groups of
workers in the city.
LEIGHTON: In Fisher 1 or Fisher 2?
SHINN: Fisher 2. One thing that gave them an awful lot of freedom, they
never had any Communists in the union until I came along. They were
militant as hell. And yet they were militant as hell when they
threw me out of the plant, too.
LEIGHTON: Well, when did you go to work in Fisher 2?
SHINN: I went to work in Fisher 2 in 1949 after I left Buick and had gone
into business for myself in a black community, but a very, very important
education in working with black people. Then my wife died and I knocked
around for a year thinking I never wanted to go back to work in the shop.
I got a job in Fisher 2 and I worked there for twenty-five years. I'd
worked in Buick for eight. So this Fisher 2 experience was something
entirely new. And I, in a sense, in the sense that they had never
contended with anybody with a Marxist education, with a serious Marxist
education. And I'm certainly not...I don't consider myself a Marxist.
But I had certain training in this that gave me...well, the concept of
unity was something that they had never worked at seriously. They had
always controlled their factions by the strongest being dominant. And I
was able...in Fisher 2...to work with all factions and never become too
closely aligned with anyone. And I had this training and discipline as a
Mennonite and as a Communist that they come to trust me. And they began
to recognize that this son of a bitch isn't afraid of struggle. And
this...when you're consistently involved in meaningful struggle, you get
support. I've always been quite negative regarding many things. I never
realized the support I would get when I'd be thrown out. I used to come
into that plant when I realized that was shaping up thinking, by God,
some morning I'm going to come in here and I won't have a friend in the
place. I'll be completely by myself. And what surprised me most was not
the violence. What surprised me most was the fact that people that I
least expected supported me.
LEIGHTON: When you went back into Buick in ‘39 and you worked there for
what...eight years, then, from ‘39 to?
SHINN: Approximately, yes, to ‘45. I started in ‘37 and actually I had
around six years seniority. But it was over a period from ‘37 to ‘45,
over an eight-year period. But I didn't have a full eight-year seniority.
LEIGHTON: When you came back, because you had been out of town...because
you had been out of town and then you came back into Flint. And you
encountered this situation where the Communist Party is really locked in
a big struggle, right in the middle of this factionals. And you'd been
kind of out of touch with all of this, would that be correct?
SHINN: This was when I came back was the period in which I joined the
Communist Party.
LEIGHTON: Yes, but what I'm saying, you'd been out of touch with the
struggle in Flint.
SHINN: I'd been fairly well informed because of my brother being here all
the time. I was fairly well informed, but I'd been out. I'd come back
rather fresh; in fact, I would argue with my brother up until I finally
joined the Communist Party myself. I would argue with him; I was very
skeptical. Well, I was conditioned by all various anti-Communists.
LEIGHTON: What made you decide to join?
SHINN: Well, the people I was working with. I hired into a plant that
was unique in ‘39. It was the parts and service plant where we filled
orders, and we had little carts and we could run all over the place and
you could talk to people fairly freely without too much trouble. And it
happened that Casper Kenney and Lou Baraty and Bruce Widmark worked in
that plant. And my brother had the reputation for being a progressive
and they logically convinced me that they were the most dependable and
they were the organization that could function in a most rational manner
during that time. And I think they were; I think they were.
LEIGHTON: Cap Kenney was already in the party then.
SHINN: Cap Kenney was already in. Have you interviewed Cap?
LEIGHTON: I met him. We were planning, and he died. We never got to it;
he was up at Cadillac.
SHINN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: He died last year.
SHINN: Cap was...it's a shame, because Cap was one of the...and Cap was a
Catholic. Cap was one of the most successful Communists in Flint in
working with ordinary people. But he was corrupted by whiskey and
politics and so forth. But he was a great guy.
LEIGHTON: No, we saw him one year at the picnic and he looked to be in
great health. And he apparently went down the hill.
SHINN: Cap used to drink when he was in the shop. He used to drink a
fifth of whiskey a day. I never saw him when he appeared to be drunk in
any way. I remember going over to Cap's place one time after work, and
he had a recreation room in the basement. We went down there and he just
said, "Chuck, how would you like a cup of coffee." I said, "That's
fine." He said, "Better still, how about a shot of good whiskey?" So he
pours this shot of whiskey and tells me how good it is. I never drank a
shot of good whiskey in my life; it's all medicine as far as I'm
concerned. But I did what I thought you were supposed to do with
whiskey. I just picked it up and drank it. And he says, "Oh, no, no,
no, no! Never, never drink good whiskey like that! That's all right for
this cheap stuff if you just want to feel it. Never drink good whiskey
like that! With good whiskey you just touch it to your tongue and let it
just warm you all the way around." And I never forgot; and you know
after that that's the way I drank whiskey and I found out it was much
more warming.
LEIGHTON: Oh, yes, and it's much easier; your system doesn't go into
shock.
SHINN: I'll never forget that. He said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no." And I
thought, "Well what the hell have I done?"
LEIGHTON: But at any rate, when you went back into Buick and you see this
struggle for leadership, not only in the International, with the Martin
faction coming out in the Cleveland convention. But here in Flint, was
the party still exercising any kind of leadership or had it either been
destroyed or had it voluntarily taken itself out and abandoned the work?
SHINN: The party made some very serious sectarian errors. And many of
them were made by the local people. Lou Baraty was very influential in
Buick. And Lou was a stickler for the proper line, would bore you to
death with speeches and resolutions on supporting the Soviet Union, and
gave the party an appearance of being a foreign agent. You know it was
something that all of the...I think everybody but Lou in the party in
Buick recognized the incorrectness of this, but nobody could contend with
Lou Baraty. He was intellectually pure; and he done a lot of reading and
had a tremendous understanding of the political economy in a mechanical
sense. But he obviously was...and this kind of sectarianism, I think,
was probably more pronounced in Buick than any place else. But on the
other hand, we had the tightest organization at Buick of any place. We
had a very tight organization and everybody respected Lou as a person.
But he gave very bad leadership. Jimmy Widmark was a much better
organizer, had a better intellect, and was able to work in the united
front. Whereas Lou isolated us from the united front, tending to...and
we would take positions in the local union that were completely
untenable, that didn't need to be taken. We took good position on
questions of struggle, too, but this was often times secondary to support
for the Soviet Union and one thing and another. It put us at odds with
the New Deal, with Roosevelt. And we were overly zealous about the
righteousness of John L. Lewis, who was not very righteous. And a lot of
very serious mistakes were made at that period in Buick. And I think
they were somewhat in a less way characterizing the local party.
LEIGHTON: Did you have much contact with the groups with party members in
other plants in Flint?
SHINN: Yes, we did.
LEIGHTON: I don't know where the party was other than in Fisher 1.
SHINN: I think that they became very sectarian, partly because of the
attacks, but largely because of their own inability to recognize the
situation as it existed here, and their idolization of the Soviet Union.
LEIGHTON: Did you find that the party began...and I gather, don't let me
put words in your mouth...that it really had an inability to communicate
with guys on the shop floor, was one of the big problems.
SHINN: As such, but we had some great communicators as far as people like
Jimmy Widmark and Bob Doud and, in fact, we had the best--we had the
cream of the crop. And we had good relations with a lot good people too,
like John McGill and Buchanan and we had very good relations with the
black people in the shop because of our position. And because we allowed
the bureaucracy to label us and isolate us.
LEIGHTON: The “bureaucracy,” meaning?
SHINN: The union leadership, the elected leadership who were, to a great
extent, quite opportunistic. And had there been a properly functioning
Communist Party, probably they would have been supporting it, many of
them.
LEIGHTON: Did you find that after the Cleveland convention, and I believe
R. J. Thomas became president then, the fact that Mortimer did not become
president...did the party begin to abandon Flint at all?
SHINN: Mortimer still came around a lot; and Mortimer was very highly
respected. Travis was always highly respected.
LEIGHTON: Well, I meant the party from the national level.
SHINN: They did, they tended to...we saw very little of them around
Flint. They went on to more lucrative fields. And they didn't have
a...they weren't able to...they sort of abandoned it, because the
leadership here was not capable of maintaining a working relationship
with the trade union movement. We became isolated, and it was a very
very difficult time, very difficult.
LEIGHTON: And you saw that isolation coming primarily from the union
bureaucracy, the UAW bureaucracy.
SHINN: Oh, yes, we were never isolated from the people in the plant.
LEIGHTON: No, but the people who were working to isolate you, would you
consider what? The Reuthers...
SHINN: Reuther played a role in it, the Association of Catholic Trade
Unionist played a big role, and they had played a very positive role at
one time. But they...I think we almost invited their opposition, because
of their deep mistrust of the Soviet Union, and our failure to place the
proper emphasis on local issues.
LEIGHTON: And basic local trade union...
SHINN: See, they always were accusing you of placing too much emphasis on
local issues and not enough on the overall issues. Well, if you
don't...there is a balance there. And the ordinary trade unionists, the
ordinary worker, I think, has a tendency to become overly narrow and not
to see the... But when the leadership becomes remote, they fail to
properly evaluate what actually is going on.
LEIGHTON: Do you think that was because they were intellectualized, the
leadership, in terms of running things by the book, as you'd said before.
Only in this case...
SHINN: Probably in the sense that they were based in New York and that
the majority of the membership in New York were professionals...it
probably was true.
LEIGHTON: The thing I want to get to, to finish up maybe, was your own
story, which is basically what happened? You mentioned being thrown out
of the plant. How did you get to that stage? You were obviously
strongly identified, as you mentioned during the war, in the meeting as a
Communist; and then people knew it. And I would guess in the thirties
that was not much of a handicap, but progressively became one as the
scare went along.
SHINN: Well, when I went back into the plant in 1949 the reaction had
already very deeply set in.
LEIGHTON: Well, you left Buick in ‘45. What did you do with the four
years in between?
SHINN: Then I was in business for myself, up on St. John Street, which
was something that I very much enjoyed. And I'm not a businessman and I
recognized that I didn't want to be a businessman. But this was a great
education for me, in working with black people. And I have been
idealistic, in a politic way, and developed some very close black
associates. In fact, Eugene Miller worked with me in the store that I
had up there. His family lived there, very, very fine people. Of
course, Eugene today is a supervisor in Fisher 1.
LEIGHTON: So you went back in ‘49 into Fisher 2.
SHINN: Yes, into Fisher 2. I got hired back in there; they wouldn't hire
me back in Buick. But I got a recommendation.
LEIGHTON: Why wouldn't they hire you in Buick?
SHINN: Because of Communist...and they hired me into Fisher 2 without
fully screening. And once they found out, they done everything they
could to fire me. And I was very, very careful and developed a good work
record. And by the time they got ready to fire me I was pretty solid in
the union and they weren't able to do anything.
LEIGHTON: So, despite the union bureaucracy and everything, you did
manage to get some fairly good support. I know you had mentioned worker
support.
SHINN: Fisher number 1 had never gone through the intense factionalism
involving Communists. This was something that they only saw as a...and I
was no threat; I was not a Communist Party. I was an individual who had
been a Communist in so far as they were concerned. And I established a
good work relationship with the union bureaucracy and I was a very
committed union man. And that was a rough plant to work in; and when
things got rough...
LEIGHTON: What made it so rough?
SHINN: The constant...an assembly plant is a very, very delicate thing.
The whole production has to be constantly increased. And as you
constantly increase production, there's a constant resistance building
up. And management has the problem of affecting this without the
resistance becoming strong enough to disrupt production. And if you have
good union leadership and organization you can cope with it. If you
don't have good leadership, a lot of people get hurt, a lot of people get
fired. If you have sufficiently strong union, people don't get fired.
And people are constantly getting hurt, though. And the hurt is what
organizes the union. This keeps the need for a union there, and
management is the greatest organizer there is and always have been. But
they give you all the tools and it's amazing. And one mistake that
management makes, I think probably you could say is that they always
credit the genius of organizing to individuals. And it's not an
individual thing at all. It's a collective thing. And this was true
during the sit-down. They put down the role of the leaders. But my God,
the role of people like...well, like Howard Foster, who always just
worked on the line, never had any big job in the union. And you
can...there just was no way to estimate the role that was played by just
ordinary people.
LEIGHTON: You mentioned in ‘54...did they finally get you out of the
plant in ‘54?
SHINN: Oh yes, they got me out; they threw me out three times, and beat
me and tore my clothes off and the UAW supported me; they supported me
strong. I had good support in my local union and they had no choice but
to support me. Reuther, in fact, mentioned at the convention in
trying...dismissing the cases of what they called the colonizers...how
staunchly they had supported me. But not because they wanted to; they
did their best to discourage me from going back to work. In fact, I was
called into a room one day when I was out, and a UAW representative from
the regional office said, "Charlie, I don't want this to be discussed,
but General Motors has offered to buy your seniority. Would you be
interested?" And, being a Mennonite and a damned fool, I said, "You go
back and you tell those sons of bitches they don't have enough money to
buy my seniority." And he says, "Well, that's what I was afraid you
would say." And afterwards I thought, boy, you talk brave; you're not
half as brave as you talk. But he went back and he told them that. And
this was something...they normally didn't have this kind of a thing to
contend with, because with money, usually you can buy seniority, at
least. Everyone wants to get out of the shop, or they're supposed to at
some point. Nobody but a damned fool would want to stay. But as a
result...you see the mistake that many of them made was they listened to
the central bureaucracy in both the Communist Party and the union, and
stayed out for two weeks for a cooling-off period. Well, you didn't cool
this kind of a thing off; this was organized and I knew it. And anyone
of any sense knew it.
LEIGHTON: Now who stayed out for two weeks?
SHINN: The others...oh, all of the colonizers, all of the others. I was
the only one that went right back in. I was criticized for it by some
because they said...
LEIGHTON: The colonizers you were referring to were...
SHINN: People who came in from New York.
LEIGHTON: And that was in ‘49.
SHINN: And not only New York, they came in from other places in Michigan.
They came in from colleges in Ohio. This was a very poor move.
LEIGHTON: This was between ‘49 and...
SHINN: This was between ‘49 and ‘51, mostly. Some of them were quite
well established in the plant. They were a great bunch of people in the
main, very good. But they were sacrificed. Not so terrible as far as
the money point of view. Most of them went out and made a lot of money
after they were kicked out by management. They couldn't get jobs in
public institutions but private industry grabbed them up like they were
rare finds, and they were!
LEIGHTON: Why?
SHINN: They were very intelligent people and management recognized this.
And they couldn't do any damage; they'd been exposed and they had to be
good. And they used them. And most of them had college experience. And
even though the UAW didn't recognize it, management recognized right away
that these were people we want. These are people that can make...do
things for us.
LEIGHTON: Because they were innovative, creative, I guess.
SHINN: Yes, some of them made a lot of money afterwards. And some of
them turned...I still have good relations with some of them. And I have
a very...I'm very proud of my relations with some. Some of them are
teachers, some of them...one librarian. Some of them work with the...
LEIGHTON: Did most of them stay in the Flint area?
SHINN: Oh no, most of them went...have scattered all over. They come
back occasionally. I run into them; they call me. This is one thing
they mentioned. I had left the Communist Party because of...not really
because of differences, but because my wife was dead and I had three
small children and I rationalized. And I think directly that...hell, I
don't want to be thrown in jail. And there was a real possibility back
in that McCarthy period. And I just simply kind of just severed my...
LEIGHTON: So you left, what...’51?
SHINN: I left just about the time of ‘51. I wasn't really under the
direct discipline of the Communist Party in ’50, when I was thrown out,
and this stood me in good because I was able to not be interfered with in
the decisions I made. And I could honestly say I wasn't a member of the
Communist Party, while not denying anything in a way. I always said that
I have respect for the Communist Party. But it perhaps was a little
helpful that I could honestly say I was not a member of the Communist
Party.
LEIGHTON: At that time, were you called up in front of any of the...
SHINN: I was called, but I never testified. They didn't call me on the
stand.
LEIGHTON: Was that for what?
SHINN: Clardy? And I was given a subpoena to go to Washington, but it
was finally cancelled.
LEIGHTON: They adjourned the hearing before they got to you.
SHINN: They adjourned before I got there. And I don't think they really
wanted me. I couldn't give them what they wanted. And I was...I
happened to be fairly popular in my own work area. And they didn't care
about contributing to that.
LEIGHTON: And so you basically stayed and worked out until you retired.
And you just retired like a...
SHINN: After the beatings I had...I can say I never had it so good. I
had respect in that plant...oh, there's people to this day that when they
just look at me, they are so full of hate. But in the main, I developed
a very strong and good relationship with people.
LEIGHTON: I was going to ask you...on the beatings...was that...who hired
the thug? I assume that's what it was.
SHINN: Oh, I think...finally the way I really got back in...I had...on
his proposal, I had Max Dean prepare to bring charges against...to sue
General Motors' Kit Clardy and he Flint Journal. And the International
sent a man by the name of Bill...I don't know his name...he was in the
left-wing caucus at one time...and then went with the...he became a vice
president of the UAW, then he went with the AF of L, the old... Anyway,
they sent him up here to tell me, "Who in the hell do you think you are,
suing General Motors?" I wasn't working then. I said, "What the hell?"
"Oh," he said, "You know what they'll do to you? Why, they'll smear
you..." I said, "Listen fellow, they can't smear me; they already
smeared me. They've smeared me as much as they possibly can." "Well, I
guess you're right," he said. "But," he said, "furthermore the UAW
agrees not to go to court on these things." I said, "Hell, I'm not
working; you guys aren't promising me my job." We had a long, long talk
and my head of my bargaining committee, who is Catholic, who is a real
operator...Sam Sammarco, an Italian who had been with the ACTU...I never
really trusted him, but he was capable. Oh, he stuck with me; he was
like a tiger. And he argued with the...what's that guy's name...names
are something that bother me; I can't pick them up. But anyway, he...my
local union gave me tremendous support. In fact, I think they like to
see a guy get the shit kicked out and I think it gives them a...and it's
not bad. What I mean, it's a terrible thing to think of...what I mean,
nobody wants to be involved in mob...but it's not all that fearsome when
you're going through it. When you know, even that you might get killed
at the time, you know, that doesn't... Going back in oftentimes was a
very sick feeling; but the thing itself, you know...
LEIGHTON: How many times were you tossed out?
SHINN: Three.
LEIGHTON: Three. And they just what...just drag you off the shop floor
and throw you out?
SHINN: Well, the first time they dragged me off, threw me out. The
second time they beat the hell out of me and threw me out. And the third
time I was just sort of eased out by management.
LEIGHTON: But each of the three times you feel it was definitely the
corporation.
SHINN: Oh, yes. In fact, we had pretty good information that there was a
real estate outfit that was furnishing the outside impetus. And I think
the Flint Journal, my God, they had a reporter out there to take my
picture.
LEIGHTON: About the time you hit the street.
SHINN: Yes, and I think that they were very deeply involved in it; I
think that there was a conspiracy. I think that's why they put me back
to work so quick when I was going to... And the amazing thing was when I
went back to work there wasn't an incident. Management controlled it. I
told them...I made the point...I wasn't sure that I was right. I said,
"Management threw me out and management can keep me in." And that's the
argument that the union guys used with management. "You guys threw him
out." Well, they didn't like to be...and later on, even, when I had to
move my distance away from management at times, when I had to...I
remember one time in negotiations when they begin to praise me and
belittle the committeeman opposite me. And I said, "Just wait a minute;
I don't need any help from you to do my job. You guys tried to get me
killed and I never forgot it." I said, "Don't go throwing any bouquets
my way."
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: And this is something you could keep. And it worked quite
magically; they turned pale. They never knew how much you might know.
And they'd covered up...they'd done a fair job of covering up. But I
think we had enough information to indicate quite clearly that management
was directly involved, in my case. There might not have been in all the
others. But, well the fact that the beatings took place on company
property was a significant factor. And the fact that these guys...not
one of them were penalized. And they came up to my department to drag me
out of the place. There was foreman that were known to have been
instigators in organizing it. And most of the people who stayed...even
the real finks...apologized to me later on, at one time or another. But
the thing that put me in good there was the fact that I never became
intimidated. I never lessened my union activity and I had a lot of
support. I had no reason to. Other places, I wouldn't criticize anybody
else, because there were times if I had had to go through what Howard
Foster went through, I don't know that I could have taken it. I mean, he
was beaten repeatedly and put in the hospital with broken ribs, outside
of the plant. You know, you don't know what you can take until you...
And it's not a good feeling working all night in the plant and knowing
they're waiting outside with a bunch of vigilantes that are given the
green light by the police to beat the hell out of you.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: I would never fault for one minute the people who left, who just
simply gave up the fight. Without the support of my local union, I don't
know what I would have done. But this is part of the...just a very
incidental part of something that's been going on in every phase of
struggle. And people with less backing, it's happened and been
forgotten. And some of them have just simply been frightened out or been
destroyed or murdered for that matter, possibly. You don't know the
depth of it...because only a small part surfaced. And there was a lot of
luck involved. Events don't unfold the way they're planned to.
LEIGHTON: No, they don't...no they don't.

INTERVIEW: July 23, 1981
INTERVIEWER: Neil Leighton
INTERVIEWEE: Charles Shinn [Flint, Michigan]
SHINN: In the beginning...of course...what do you want, just the
aftermath or the...?
LEIGHTON: What I would like to start with is when did you end up in
Flint? When did you first come to Flint?
SHINN: Well, we...my father worked in Flint during World War I. And then
we went back north. I was born up north. I was born in Antrim County.
And we went back north after World War I. And we...my father was
blacklisted from the sawmill operation in Pellston, largely because of
the mayor of the town, who was Beatrice Churchill's father. His name was
George McRae. He was the mayor of Pellston, and he was superintendent of
the sawmill, a big, handsome, husky man who...they called him King
George. It was thought that his word was law. Most people respected it
as such. Beatrice was the oldest daughter, I believe, in the family.
There were a number of boys who were very athletic. Beatrice was the
oldest daughter and after her mother died when she was in her...oh,
around ten or twelve, I believe, he married the mother's cousin or the
mother's sister. And Beatrice gave the McRae family a rough time; she
was rather a rebel. She married a guy by the name of Clyde Mayo who was
part black. She became the telephone operator and allegedly run sort of
a business in the telephone office. She and another individual who was
from the other extreme, from the people who were supposed to be on the
town, which was a very bad thing at that time, to accept any kind of
public assistance.
LEIGHTON: Right.
SHINN: She and Fern Steiner allegedly had some sort of a business going
there at the telephone...or in the area of the telephone office, one of
the downtown buildings.
LEIGHTON: I know Pellston well, by the way.
SHINN: Oh, you know Pellston.
LEIGHTON: Oh, yes, I do.
SHINN: Well Pellston happens to be my favorite little town. I don't know
why. It's the most out of the way; it's flat, cold in the winter and hot
in the summer.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: And yet it was where I was as a youngster. I lived...from Flint,
my father went to Pellston and got a job in the sawmill there. By the
way, he was a Mennonite minister at one time.
LEIGHTON: Oh, I see.
SHINN: And he always was an ordained minister and remained a minister
until he died. But he was a working minister, which is not uncommon in
the Mennonite church.
LEIGHTON: He didn't...you say he was blacklisted from the saw mill, but
he wasn't blacklisted in Flint at all.
SHINN: He had difficulty getting back into Flint...work in Flint, later
in 1927 as a result of that, in fact.
LEIGHTON: As a result of the...
SHINN: I think partly as a result of that and partly as certain conflicts
that he had found himself in the Mennonite Conference in the church.
There was an individual who had once been a minister. I can't think of
his name; I have been trying and trying a long time. He'd once been a
minister in the Mennonite church and became a...I believe a plant manager
in Buick. There had been a dispute over this man's womanizing and he had
been kicked out of the church and my father happened to be on the
opposite side, very much against him. And it was thought, and this is
surmised, that he had something to do with, a liaison with Pellston and
all of what's making it difficult for my father to get a job here back in
1927. But the reason my father was blacklisted in Pellston was not
because of any union activity or anything. But one Saturday the mill
only worked five hours. And in the afternoon my father started over to my
grandparents’ place, who lived across the tracks. We lived on the east
side up on sand hill and my grandparents lived just a short distance
across the tracks in about the center of Pellston. And he had started
over there. And behind my grandparents was an open area and a path
across, from Indiantown...what we called Indiantown, which was the
northwest corner of the town where there were more Indians than whites
lived. And my father noticed a...some sort of a group in the field in
this path. And they were cheering and having quite a time. And he
walked over there and here was George McRae, who was the constable, the
mayor, the superintendent of the sawmill, taking a supposedly drunken
Indian to jail. They had just a little, small, not more than ten by
eight place they called the jail. And they'd throw drunks in there, and
often they wouldn't build a fire or anything, just lay them in there
overnight and let them out in the morning. But he was taking this little
fellow, who was an Indian, to jail. And he would pick him up and throw
him and kick him and everybody was cheering; this was great sport to be
playing with a drunken Indian. And the Indian was smiling and laughing
and it appeared taking part in the thing. But it was obvious that he was
at a terrible disadvantage and he was being made a fool of. My father,
being a very religious man, a very quiet, sincere sort of an individual.
And he was rather a small man, about five, eight and a half maybe, and
always skinny. And McRae was a husky man, a well built man, a handsome
man, who had...who ruled Pellston completely. His word was law. And
father stepped between McRae and the Indian, and he said, "George, the
next time you strike him you're going to have strike me first." And this
was a serious embarrassment to McRae, whose authority never was
challenged. And so he picked up the Indian and carried him and put him
in jail. And father came home, and I was the only one at home at that
time. Toward evening he came home. I remember it was a bleak fall day.
And father came home and he was all shook up. He told mother what had
happened, and she went into hysterics. She said, "You'll lose your job.
My goodness, the Indian was drunk. Why didn't you mind your own
business?" And we had my grandparents on her side; my grandparents
Williams were living with us. There were five of us children. My
youngest sister wasn't born until the next summer. And so in the course
of the discussion...I was probably eight or nine...I was nine or
ten...probably nine at the time as I recall it. But, anyway, in the
course of the discussion, she had said, "George, you will lose your job;
the family will starve!" WhatI mean this is a stupid thing to do. And
he made the statement then...and I recall it as plain what would happen
today..."I don't care if my family does starve, I'm not going to stand by
and watch a man abused even if he is drunk!" Well, the...this is the one
thing I remember about my father. My father and I never were very close.
I never was close to my father. But this is one thing that I was always
very proud of. Then the thing was dropped and never discussed again in
the family, never mentioned again. But Father the next Monday went back
to the mill and he was given his time and he couldn't get a job around
Pellston. He worked in a gristmill some that winter and he went to
Detroit the next summer and worked in a gas plant in Detroit. And then
when my grandfather died, he had to come back up; my grandfather died in
the spring. Then my youngest sister was born in August; he had to come
back then. And finally he determined that we would have to move out of
Pellston. So they made arrangements to move to Flint. But he'd come
down here looking for a job before he moved, but he hadn't been able to
find one. But his relationship with the church and all, why, they
assured him that he'd get a job. And he came down and the church helped
us through that winter pretty well while he was trying to get a job.
Finally through the intervention of an elder in the church, with this
very individual that we believe was blacklisting him, he finally got a
job in Buick. And this was an interesting part of my introduction to the
class struggle, as far as...
LEIGHTON: Sure.
SHINN: Then father was...while father was very conservative on religious
lines...he was always was pro-union and pro...it was an unusual thing.
And on my mother's side they were rock-ribbed Republicans. In fact, as
my sister was researching the Williams clan, she suspects...Williams is
such a common name it's hard to tie down the different branches...but she
suspects a Williams family in New Jersey that fought on the side of the
Tories in the Revolution were denied their property after the Revolution
and fled for their lives to Canada. And they're very staunch
Republicans, and my grandfather Stokes on my mother's side fought in the
Civil War. All through entire clan, they came from Ontario; they're
still staunch Republicans, most of them. There's a few exceptions. And
they're very religious in a fundamentalist fashion. But that's a little
bit of background as to my...why I react to the situation here as I did.
It had a great deal to do with it I think. My grandfather Shinn was
always a...for the underdog. My grandfather Williams, who was my
favorite grandfather by the way, but always wanted to be identified with
the people that were important.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: He didn't have a lot of money, but he was often a foreman in the
lumber woods and a very jolly person who could tell beautiful stories.
But as I look back, I see that he was politically very conservative. But
anyway, on my father's side it was quite the opposite. They were...and
it's still the same way...it's a long family story. But anyway, back
when we finally...I went through school here to high school. But I
graduated up north. I missed a year as a result of the Depression.
Father finally lost his job and we went back north. And then I was in
the CC's during the early thirties after I graduated from high school in
nineteen...in the CCC's...
LEIGHTON: Yes, Civilian Conservation. When did you graduate from high
school?
SHINN: In the spring of 1934. And I went into the CCC in the fall of
1934. I'd missed a year; I was eighteen when I graduated. I would have
been seventeen if I hadn't missed the year.
LEIGHTON: So you graduated from up north, although you had gone to school
here in Flint.
SHINN: I'd gone to school...both Northern and Central. And I transferred
from Central...come back down to start in Central again, thinking I
wanted to finish my high school in Flint. And I was working for my room
and board and going to high school in Flint. And that got rough, so that
I was ready to go back north and finish school up there, which I did.
Anyway, then into the CC's for a year, with three C's, and then banging
around trying to get jobs. I finally...I worked for a year at the
Pontiac State Hospital. Then I got a job at the Herd Lock Company in the
fall of ‘36. And that...we were locked out there because they had
organized.
LEIGHTON: Was that in Flint?
SHINN: That was in Almont. Herd Lock Company. They moved to Adrian.
They locked the doors one night. Then I came to Flint and because of a
little union experience there and the lock out, I became very interested
in the union here. And my brother was here, by the way. He was working
in Buick (older brother) and he was a very astute student of politics.
At that time he wasn't in any sense identified with any group, but he was
very keen...had a very keen mind. As a matter of fact, I wish he were
living. He would be a better man to interview than me, because he was
very deeply involved in the union struggles here and played an important
role, not a leadership role, although he was a committeeman for a number
of years, chairman of his plant in Buick.
LEIGHTON: Was your father supportive of?
SHINN: Well, my father's always been supportive of struggle.
LEIGHTON: Oh yes.
SHINN: He's always been supportive of any kind of struggle. And this was
a contradiction...in...
LEIGHTON: Yes. But I'm just curious that when push came to shove he
was...
SHINN: In fact, even at the point when I was thrown out of the plant,
why, he was very indignant. And he made the comment, "They wouldn't have
thrown him out." They might not have; but it wouldn't have been because
of his physical struggle, but because of his moral determination. He was
a very self-righteous man. He believed he was right. And he believed he
was right when he was defending the Indian. He believed...he lived a
very, very austere life. In fact, I don't know of any human being that
was more rigid in his own standards. But he didn't project those
standards onto others. He has some very individualistic and definite
philosophies about righteousness. He had a lot of contradictions in his
positions, to me. He was a conservative on one hand and a
very...well...had a very good attitude toward people, nothing in the way
that your fundamentalist...the rigidity with which the
fundamentalist...he never believed in capital punishment. He never
believed in...he was always, always...this is one thing that I got from
my father that I pride...was he was in the Shinn clan. From my
grandfather's side, they almost instinctively befriended the underdog.
Whoever the underdog was they took their position, which, in my opinion,
was usually a good position, a pretty good instinct to follow.
LEIGHTON: They never had any trade-union experience.
SHINN: They never had any trade-union experience that I know of. I've
often wondered if maybe some branch of the Shinn family came from
Wales...in the British Isles. And I've often wondered if maybe they
didn't have mining experience and the like, way back. But I've never
been able to establish it. Because of their strong commitment to the
labor movement, they always took the side of the workers, and usually the
most radical. And father was never pro-Communist in any sense, but being
pro-underdog he had a lot of questions about the people who were the
anti-Communists. And it made him raise questions that often times caused
him to take a position that others would question. But this is just a
little of the background that might indicate why my family has been very
progressive. It's not just me, in fact, others are more consistent in
their position, I think. But, anyway, after being in the CCC's and then
bouncing around and going to work for the Herd Lock Company and having
the experience of being locked out and coming back here and the
organizing of the labor movement is beginning...intensely. My sister has
gone to some classes that Roy Reuther taught. She had gone to a summer
college in Hillsdale where she had run into certain progressive elements
at a college that was being financed, I think, by some government agency
at that time. It could have been the WPA, the Works Progress
Administration; they did a whole number of programs for artists and the
like.
LEIGHTON: Now this was in ’34-‘35?
SHINN: This was in ’34-‘35, yes. This was a radicalizing experience.
And then when the strike came along, we were just automatically on the
side of the workers. I didn't think they had a chance to win against
General Motors. I thought probably it was premature. And there was a
lot of discussion. The people in the Mennonite Church almost one hundred
per cent were opposed to the union. A few exceptions...they were noted
because they were exceptions...
LEIGHTON: Was there a large Mennonite community in Flint, then?
SHINN: It wasn't large, but probably in the membership close to two
hundred total membership.
LEIGHTON: And you were back in Flint from the triple C's.
SHINN: Back in Flint from the C's and from Almont. I'd come back here to
live with my brother; my folks were still living up north, but I lived
here with my brother who was working here.
LEIGHTON: You were hired in Buick, then?
SHINN: I hired in Buick right after the strike in March.
LEIGHTON: Oh, okay, so you weren't working in the plant, that's right.
SHINN: I wasn't in the plant during the time of the strike. And my
brother at Buick finally had to close down. And so my brother and I were
very, very active at the Pengelly Building, picket lines and completely
innocent as to the alignment of forces.
LEIGHTON: Okay, that's what I wanted to get to, because in ‘34...your
brother's already working in Buick, right?
SHINN: Well, in thirty...yes, about that time, yes.
LEIGHTON: And in ‘34 was when they were thinking of having that strike in
Buick. And the A F of L left them just hanging out...
SHINN: Oh yes, this was very much part of our discussions.
LEIGHTON: Yes, I was gonna say it must have made an impression on him.
SHINN: It made a very definite impression. And there were some very,
very spooky times in that period in which...well, at one time they
had...well, you referred to it in...what's his name?
,
LEIGHTON: Keeran.
SHINN: Keeran's book. At one time they had the rumor that the Communists
were going to take over Flint, back in 1933 or ‘34. The police made
sure that if more than three people would stop on any corner in Flint and
talk they would break it up right away. There were all kinds of
vigilante elements organized. There were plainclothes policemen around.
Certain dates the Communists were supposed to take over. It was all part
of a scare program to frighten people from becoming associated with any
progressive or unionizing effort. But then we were very...we got to know
the various leading individuals in the strike on casual terms. And then
after the strike and after I had worked in Buick and there were some very
interesting events that took place during and after the strike...this
period when there were several sit-down strikes. I was involved in
closing down plant 40 shortly after I was in and gotten hired and going
down to a meeting in which supposedly the Martin forces were going to
throw Bob Travis out of it. And so we went down to make sure nobody was
thrown out. It was a big meeting; it was entirely a Travis meeting, it
turned out to be, because the others, once the thing was...but we simply
closed the plant down and went down...which was obviously a violation of
the contract.
LEIGHTON: Sure.
SHINN: But these kind of actions, the sporadic actions, as noted in your
paper, were what built the union. There wouldn't have been a union if
there hadn't been a whole number of...
LEIGHTON: Wildcats.
SHINN: Wildcats.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: The wildcats played a very important role. And the reaction to
the wildcats on the part of many people largely resulted on the part of
progressives from their failure to really know what was going on at the
bottom and in the plants. And from the Martin group and the more
conservative element and their lack of being able to exercise dictatorial
control, it was very...
LEIGHTON: I'm going to get to that because you're right, that's a key
part and it's a part we know very little about. But coming up to the
strike itself, there's several questions that you've raised that come
about as a result of that. One is your brother working at Buick...and
were you working by that time in Flint in ‘35?
SHINN: No, I was working most of the time out of Flint at that time. I
was back in Flint every little bit, but I wasn't closely associated with
Flint.
LEIGHTON: Because it seems to me that in order for progressive people and
so on to play a role they have to have established a pretty good network
of friends and so on, to communicate with them. Did...can you recall
some of the people that you spent time with and spoke with who were
discussing much the same thing as you as unions...any blacks, let's say?
That would have been quite a revolutionary stroke in Flint in the
thirties.
SHINN: Of course in the thirties the blacks were not really a big factor
in the strike. The blacks came to the union after the union was
organized and the CIO nationally and all the way through took a very good
position on the question of racism. I think it's one of the positions
that there was more unity than in any other decisive and important
aspect. And they played a role that was...the CIO in its
entirety...almost, what I mean of course there were exceptions, played a
role in fighting against racism and for the equality of workers that to
this day has a tremendous influence on Genesee County. The Genesee
County Fair is different than any other fair in the whole state.
LEIGHTON: Why is that?
SHINN: They have a lot of blacks involved in the operation of the fair.
The fairs elsewhere have all been stayed in the old, hard, conservative
business, political grip.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: In Genesee County they have to recognize that they can't do that.
They can't get away with it. There are many things about Genesee County
that date from the struggles of the thirties. The Workers' Alliance, of
course prior to the UAW, played a very important role in the organization
and before and after...
LEIGHTON: Yes, were you involved with the Workers' Alliance at all? Do
you know some people that were?
SHINN: I wasn't, I wasn't, but it...I was constantly hearing of it and
the organization of the unemployed councils and the like began, of
course, prior to the strike. And they went on after the strike and the
UAW played a very bad role in disrupting them and trying to take over
their organizations. It was a very unfortunate aspect of development
because this was a very positive organization in Flint. And not near
enough has been dealt with...and I wish...in fact, it won't be long until
it will be very difficult to deal with. But the role of the foreign-born
in Flint was great.
LEIGHTON: What do you know...see that's what we're trying to patch
together. What do you recall?
SHINN: I get this mostly from...see, I married a woman whose parents
were...her mother was Polish, her father was Serbian. He was...they were
both from Europe. He was back in the coalmines in Illinois, came over
here as a fourteen-year-old to pick up gold off the streets of America
and come back and buy land in Yugoslavia. He was a...he got in with
Serbs here. I'm not sure whether he was...he always claimed to be a
Serb. That was a popular nationality with him...he identified with the
Serbs here. But from where he was born...I think he was born in Croatia,
which is the Catholic part. He always identified with the Eastern
Orthodox Church, until he became a real radical and went against all
religion. But he was one of the most wonderful individuals. He was part
of the early organization of the union here. And he did a lot of
distributing of pamphlets, was in jail many times, he was one of the most
unusual men I've ever known in my life. And always just a rank and
filer, but a very intelligent man, a very well-informed man. He couldn't
read and write English, but he was...he always made his own moonshine and
was, oh, a powerful man. He had such tremendous hands. And he was...he
played a role that is completely unrecognized as far as the...and this
was true among many, many of the foreign-born. Goodness sakes, during
the strike they filled their homes with people that come in and supported
the strike from Toledo and elsewhere...people sleeping on the floor.
They played a very important role in furnishing food. And many of them
that turned out to be real conservative later on were very pro-union.
They had had union experience somewhere in Europe or some sort of
training. They knew how to organize and they were...they'd get out
literature and they would face the police. They had a certain courage,
and the experience that made them distinctive. And this Mike, Mike
Radeka, in fact he always had...his family always a little ashamed of him
because of his drinking and the like. But I was very proud of him. And
Joe Devitt knew Mike real well. The role of the foreign born, I think,
in Flint was probably in the early stages, decisive. I think without
them, I don't think we'd ever been able to have won in ‘36 or in ‘37. I
think the strike could not have been successful without their very...they
had a commitment and an experience that was totally lacking here.
LEIGHTON: Isn't there a Radeka, must be your age, that's still alive,
lives in Florida now? Who was up here...I don't know whether he's named
Mike or Steve or something like that?
SHINN: George Radeka.
LEIGHTON: George, that's it.
SHINN: George became very corrupted, not in a vile sense. But
he...George had a lot of experience. You could draw a lot from George.
Have you ever met George?
LEIGHTON: I met him.
SHINN: What kind of a...probably he didn't give you a very good
impression.
LEIGHTON: No, it wasn't that at all.
SHINN: George is a great guy. But George never read, never...and he was
always ashamed of his dad...because of his dad. And his dad was rough on
George. But his family, to this day, are basically loyal to the labor
movement. And the mother was a real rock. She was very...she was almost
puritanical in her reaction to her experiences. And she had a rough
time...large family. And Mike was in and out of jail for various
reasons. He never done anything but what it was based on struggle. But
he did a lot of things that were rather stupid. And you know, we all do.
LEIGHTON: Sure.
SHINN: And especially when you're faced with...well, I remember one time
he was...he didn't come home. And my mother-in-law called up and my wife
kind of half embarrassed like, she says, "I know where he is...he's in
jail." And I said, "Oh, I don't believe so." And she said, "Oh, he's in
jail. When he doesn't come home, he's in jail; that's all there is to
it." And so, I called up the jail and sure enough he was there. I went
down and paid the twenty dollars and oh he was so embarrassed. He says,
"Oh, son-in-law." He had stole a couple pieces of cheese out at
Hamady's. And you know what I mean, he was so...and he got away with
most of his little. And I said to him, I said, "Well, what are you
embarrassed about?" He said, "Well, what will my son-in-laws think?" I
said, "Well, what the hell do you care what they think?" I said, "The
thing that makes me mad is that it was a couple pieces of cheese; what
the hell's the matter with you?" And he was embarrassed and he...but
he'd do these things. And he could deal with the police because he was
foreign-born; he could put on these little acts. And in the plant he
could do it and get information and carry information that was invaluable
because he was a dumb foreigner; he didn't know anything.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: But he was a very smart man. And he used to tell me, "If I had
your education..." what he would do. I said, "If you had my education
you would be just as stupid as I am." But he meant that I could read and
write and express myself in what he considered to be a more clear
fashion. But I thought he...I don't think anybody could express their
thoughts any better than Mike. And I don't think anybody ever had any
better relationship with working people. He did a big job of organizing
during the strike. He had a very good working relationship with the
Parish family, for instance. In fact, he's the one that organized them
into the progressive movement, into the labor movement.
LEIGHTON: Tell me a little bit about that, because the Parish family is
not one that you would normally think of as being progressive...from the
South.
SHINN: No, they came from Alabama; they were not progressive. In fact,
their close relationship in the unemployed struggles and the struggles
for survival during the early days of the Depression, before the union
was what...and they were...oh, they didn't like that old foreigner that
come around and bring them papers and things. They thought he was...but
he just kept coming around and being friendly and finally they developed
a very close family relationship. And Delia used to tell how she
reacted. She wished he would mind his own business. He was just a
“Commune-ist,” she would call it. And the Parish family wasn't the only
family. He developed contacts in the south end that were very broad.
And people respected him because he was a very convincing talker.
LEIGHTON: What would he distribute to them?
SHINN: Oh, he'd distribute union leaflets, the Daily Worker, everything.
Nothing that he thought was right was beyond his...he wasn't afraid to
take a position. And while he was not a member of the Communist Party
ever, he was very pro-Communist, because of his experience in the mines.
And if you've been down through southern Illinois, there's a country with
the mining areas with a rich history of struggle. And we drew very
heavily from southern Illinois here. Men like John McGill. John McGill
was one of the really, really best in...and of course alcohol destroyed
John McGill and destroyed a lot of them. Jimmy Widmark.
LEIGHTON: John McGill is still around.
SHINN: John McGill is a great guy, but John McGill was very seriously
compromised by the drinking habit. And John was a great speaker. He had
a tremendous influence in Buick and throughout the labor movement and
took...generally took a good position. He was not thrown by the anti-
Communist hysteria. Although he was never...he was never a Communist.
And I think for good reasons. I think he knew too much about the
Communists when he came here already, you know, to become... I became a
Communist, and I learned a lot about the Communists...in ‘39. But John
McGill recognized the factional dangers that existed in political
groupings and while nobody can and I think John McGill would recognize
the very important role the Communists played. I think there were
certain very definite deficiencies in their ability to grasp the
situation here. I think too much of it was the leadership from New York
and Detroit, even.
LEIGHTON: I wanted to ask you about that, because you have already
provided me with really something that I hadn't been fully aware of, and
that is people like Mike Radeka going out and just spreading the word,
not necessarily as an agent of a political party.
SHINN: No, no, he wasn't an agent of anything. He was just a man with
strong commitments.
LEIGHTON: Right. And probably there were others doing much the same
thing.
SHINN: Oh, yes, oh, yes. There were a number.
LEIGHTON: I can't imagine the Evanoff's Bakery being a place where you
only discussed flours.
SHINN: No, Mike Evanoff played a very important role in there; and
largely through his parents, the influence of his parents.
LEIGHTON: Sure. But I'm curious about that because one of the things
that has come out of this is, of course, as Keeran's book points out and
I think rightly so, the Communists did play a leading role. They had the
experience.
SHINN: They played a very important role. They sometimes overemphasized
their role, because it was much broader, you know it was a broad
movement, really broad. And the Communists have never really been broad;
they've never been able to, because they never really established that
kind of a base.
LEIGHTON: That's what I wanted to get at...and that is, not just the
Communist Party but something unique. The chemistry begins to change in
Flint, not by an act of God but by a lot of work, like Mike Radeka and
others. Were you around when the United Front or whatever it was called,
the technical term for it, was established in Flint?
SHINN: Yes, I was very aware of that and not so much an active part of it
as a part of the progressive faction in it.
LEIGHTON: How was that put together? These people with very intense
passions put this together.
SHINN: It's amazing. The association of...you didn't mention the
Association of Catholic Trade Unions in your paper. They played a very,
very positive role in early stages.
LEIGHTON: This would have been the O'Rourkes.
SHINN: The O'Rourkes and the Fitzgeralds and the Ryans and the...oh, you
could name any number of them. And this was the main alliance that
finally catapulted Reuther to power...was his alliance with the ACTU.
They became...and I think this was where the Communist Party made some
very serious errors, and the left-wing progressives in general, which
were broader than the Communist Party. But I think that some bad
decisions were made at the time of the Cleveland convention in which
unity was given a distorted idea. Their idea of unity was a mechanical
thing, not real unity.
LEIGHTON: Now the Cleveland convention was in the summer of ‘36.
SHINN: Yes...no, no, thirty...when was the Cleveland convention? It was
probably ‘39, I think, the Cleveland convention, when Mortimer could have
been elected president.
LEIGHTON: You're talking of the UAW convention.
SHINN: UAW, yes.
LEIGHTON: Okay, I'm sorry. That was when R. J. Thomas was elected.
SHINN: The break...well, the Finnish war was another contributor. But
the break...the real factional struggle, when the thing became
bitterly...a bitter struggle between the most progressive elements
that...in which Communists took part...I wouldn't say that Communists
even led...often were developed around these issues of unity. What I
mean, I think that at that time many of the people in the ACTU had a
better concept of unity than people that were members of the Communist
Party. I think Mortimer had a very good concept of it. But I think he
was overruled by somebody, I don't know who. I have no idea. And I
think Travis had a very good working relationship with the ACTU. I
think he recognized their strength. And one thing Travis never did, with
almost all of the leading element, all of the Communist faction, was he
never became paranoid about the Trotskyites. He recognized that some of
them were playing a very disruptive role and he recognized that
nationwide that was characteristic. But he also recognized something
that I insisted on right from the beginning, and I was just a...I was
nobody. But when, back in 1939 or in that time period there was an order
out that any Communist that associated with Trotskyites would be
expelled. And I said, "Shove it." I sympathized with the Trotskyites.
And nobody is going to pick my associates. And I got away with it
because I had a Mennonite self-righteousness. Guys like Harry Abramik
got expelled, who is still around Flint...a Polish guy that knows a lot
about the labor movement. And he's not a good friend of mine. In fact,
for fairly good reasons, he hates me. But if you were to get in touch
with Harry Abramik...
LEIGHTON: How do you spell it?
SHINN: He's a very hard guy to talk to; he's a very abrasive guy.
Abramik, A b r a m i k, I think it is.
LEIGHTON: Okay. (Conversation missing from tape at this point.)
SHINN: Nobody there. So I started back for home; I didn't live far. I
lived within walking distance during the war. And each step I'd take I'd
say "coward." Then I'd turn around and I thought, I'm going back; I
don't want to go but after all I'll go back. So I went back and there
was no one there and I thought this thing is supposed to be getting
started. So I begin to rationalize it and I started to go again. Then I
thought, no, I'll wait awhile. And a guy with white hair with a
briefcase came in all bubbles and friendly and shook hands and told me
who he was, "I'm so-and-so, secretary of the Michigan Council of
Churches, and what is your name?" And I gave him my name. And he said,
"And who do you represent?" And I said, "I represent the Communist Party
of Genesee County." And I thought the guy was going to faint. He turned
completely white; he lost all the red in his lips. He walked around and
fumbled papers for awhile and then finally, like all good professionals,
he got his composure back and it didn't seem to bother him a bit. And
the meeting came along and these other two that apparently were supposed
to come, they were having the same misgivings I had; they didn't want to
go. Because this...we knew the character of it and why we should be sent
there; it didn't make sense to us.
LEIGHTON: What was the formal title?
SHINN: It was Interracial Clinic. They were going to discuss the racial
problems in Detroit and as related to what to do in Flint to prevent this
kind of trauma. Well anyway, the thing come along. Finally a friend
that knew my sister came. She was the wife of a dentist, a black woman.
And I'd met her a couple times. My sister was not at all a Communist;
she didn't want to be identified with anything. She was liberal, but she
didn't want to be identified...she thought the worst thing that ever
happened was that her brothers had gotten mixed up with the Communists.
And she came along and I didn't want to press the fact that I knew her.
I just sat to myself like a good Mennonite, and thought "I'll bear this
thing out and go home." I didn't plan to have any part in it or
anything. But the more I knew the character of the meeting, the less I
wanted to be any way involved in it. Well, anyway, this smart
operator...this secretary of the Council of Churches, happened to be the
chairman of the meeting. I didn't realize he was to be the chairman of
the meeting. He called the meeting to order and by that time there was
twenty-five, thirty maybe more people there. And some of the...a lot of
the ministers, one who was a labor hack by the name of Lindsey, who was
from a Presbyterian church on the east side who was always being
represented as a pro-labor man, and others. I think the plant manager of
AC Spark Plug and some others of...supposed to be of distinction. And
then a black minister who was active in the YMCA came in. And he'd
always cut me down whenever I'd attend the youth council, the NAACP or
anything. He was no fool; he knew who I represented.
LEIGHTON: Yes, sure.
SHINN: And he didn't trust me; he didn't like me. He came, Davis did.
And we proceeded with...or finally the meeting started. And this guy
from the...secretary of the Council of Churches said, "Since many of us
are strange to each other here, I suggest we start from the opposite end
and each one get up and give their name and their organization they
represent." And I thought, "Oh, my God." Here I'm hooked; he's turning
the tables now. I'm not the one that's going to... And some of the
people that I knew were there; Davis was there and he wasn't fooled. But
I knew their attitude. And this woman that knew my sister and several
others; I knew that wouldn't go over very good. But I got up and I said,
"I'm Charles Shinn." Marie Wright turned around and recognized me. She
smiled a big smile because she recognized I was Edith's brother. And
then I said, "I represent the Communist Party of Genesee County." And
you should have seen that smile drop off her face. She just turned back
around; her husband was a dentist, she was a teacher. She just turned
back around and looked completely ahead. And I could see the contempt
coming from...oh, maybe it was imaginary on my part. But I could feel
it, anyway. And so the thing went on and they talked and they talked and
they talked. And there was nothing really to...so finally I thought,
well, maybe I should say something, after all. And I had a tremendous
advantage because of my experience in the Communist Party, experience in
the labor movement and all. And so I made a few comments. Oh, I went to
speak; nobody let me speak, they'd cut me right off. And finally, this
secretary of the Council of Churches who had appeared so befuddled
because I was there, he said, "Just a minute, now just a minute. This
young man had tried to speak two or three times and you always cut him
off. I want to hear what he has to say." So I made my little pitch and
was...I thought it was pretty good. Soon as I got done, Lindsey got up
and he just tore what I'd said to shreds, belittled everything I'd said,
and was playing his role very well, because he didn't want to be... He
was supposed to be a liberal and he didn't want to be associated. And he
wanted to make clear that they'd give him an opportunity to establish his
strong anti-Communist bias. And pretty soon he got real insulting.
Pretty soon the secretary of the Council of Churches said, "John, you're
all wrong. This young man's the only person here tonight that's made any
contribution at all." And I thought, "My God, what's happening?" And he
said, "In fact, I think you should have him on your committee, then maybe
you'd get busy and do something." And I thought, "For goodness sakes,
what's happening here?" And then Harry Abramik spoke up and he told them
what a bunch of hypocrites they were, and he really laced into them...was
very, very vulgar in his speech, but I enjoyed it, because I shared the
same sentiments. So he was more or less ignored. But then they went on
and they talked awhile. And finally, Berry Blassingame, the black guy
who had come, also from the same organization, he said, "I agree with
what the secretary of the Council of Churches said, and I think Mr. Shinn
should be on the committee. And I think action should be taken to see
that he is." He was trying to tie something now...I didn't want to be on
their committee, really. So the Council of Churches...the secretary of
the Council of Churches said, "How 'bout it, John?" (John Linsey was
head of this thing.) He says, "Can you make room for this young man on
your committee?" "Well, I guess so; I don't know why we can't." But I
never heard of it again. But anyway, this Davis who was there...and
after the meeting, Marie Wright came up and told me how much she agreed
with my remarks. And I thanked her. And then other blacks came around
and told me you can't trust these hypocrites; and they identified with
me. And this probably was the thing that kept me from serving on the
committee...was that different blacks came around, professional blacks,
mainly, and congratulated me on the remarks I'd made. And they were not
thrown by this Communist thing. While they didn't want to be identified
with it, they were not thrown by it. And this Davis came around, who had
always hated my guts. And he says, "Hey, Chuck, do you have a ride
home?" He said, "Ride with me." I didn't know him that well, but I
said, "Okay." So no sooner than I got in the car he said, "Do you think
they'll let you serve on that committee?" I said, "I don't know, I don't
know." He went on telling...he was real cynical about the whole thing.
He'd always worked with these groups, worked with the YMCA and all. He
was real cynical; and we had a long, long talk. And the guy was a pretty
decent guy, basically. But the thing he'd thought...and he told me, he
said he'd been in Indiana. And whites always would...these whites that
would take a pro-black position...when push come to shove they'd run for
cover. And he told me he'd admired what I'd said; it took a lot of guts
and he wasn't either pro- or anti-Communist. But he just didn't like
white people; he told me very frankly he didn't like white people, didn't
trust them, worked with them, had to work with them. He got what he
could and "to hell with them!" I appreciated that. But from that time
on, that guy was just as friendly as could be, because he recognized that
I was not just taking a position to take a position, but I was willing to
stand behind my position. And anyway, now, that was an awful long story
that probably doesn't have any relevance at all. But, anyway, that was
just part of the political structure that... And then again, I had the
same experiences later on in different ways in...when I was thrown out of
the shop in 1954, experiences with people that didn't agree at all with
my...what they perceived to be my political beliefs, but were the
staunchest of supporters. And this is characteristic of the working
class, I think, and the labor movement and beyond the labor movement,
even the various elements in the political structure. It's not any
simple, easy to analyze and understand relationship and process that goes
on. But I think we got lost someplace.
LEIGHTON: This helps fill in some of the blanks. One of the things is
the united front. How did the parties get together, since the Communist
Party probably came to Flint in any significance from nineteen...at least
according to Keeran, 1934 on, they have more of a little presence on the
ground than they did prior to that.
SHINN: I think the Communist Party played a very...the key role probably,
in fighting for a united front. This was where they did very well. And
the national leadership as well as the local leadership in which
they...the Socialists...they worked with Norman Thomas, they worked with
very broad elements within and they worked with the ACTU. They
emphasized the point that it wasn't the single issues you had to be
united on, that you could unite on, and not try...you didn't have to
agree with any particular program. You could have strong disagreements
and at the same time work to organize the people, work to organize the
union. And in this, I think that their role was exemplary and I think
they had some very expert leadership in Mortimer, especially, Travis as
well. And all the way through...then Weinstone who came from New York,
who was...
LEIGHTON: When did you first meet Will Weinstone?
SHINN: I really never met Will, but I've heard so much about him that I
feel that I've met him. I've heard about a meeting that they had at
Fosters, that's Lester Foster, the father.
LEIGHTON: Of Howard?
SHINN: Yes, during the strike. And things had gotten pretty...they had a
lot of problems. And the Mortimers and the Weinstones and the
various...they were looked to for leadership. Even John L. Lewis was
very conscious of the experience...of the Communists and these kind of
struggles and their connections. He didn't have any connection with the
foreign-born group, but he knew that he had determined to use the
Communists. And he respected their commitment. And at this meeting at
Fosters...my brother was there.
LEIGHTON: This was before the strike?
SHINN: This was during the strike. This indicates the part of their
united front role. And they were looked to for leadership in this role.
And they showed a lot of ability and a lot of humility in recognizing
that they didn't know the answers. Just because they figured the
Communists should know the answers didn't mean they did. And I remember
this one meeting...or hearing the story of this one meeting at Fosters
where they were running into big problems. And they didn't know what to
do. And at this meeting, while I'm sure that Walter Reuther was never a
member of the Communist Party, I don't think...some people say he was,
and he may have been, may have been given a...but I don't think he ever
was. But anyway, Walter Reuther was at this meeting that Weinstone was
at, at Fosters.
LEIGHTON: Walter, not Roy.
SHINN: Walter, not Roy. And I don't think...I'm sure Travis wasn't
there, none of the...because of the fact of not wanting to be closely
identified with the party. But Weinstone was there and several of the
top brass in the union were there. And they were threshing over some
problem of...and I wish I knew more of the specifics...I knew it at one
time, but I've lost it. Anyway, they finally turned to Weinstone, Bill
Weinstone and said, "Listen, Bill, what are we gonna do?" And he said,
"I don't know the answer, but let's call a meeting of the people in the
shop that are concerned with it. We don't know the answer, but by God
we'll come up with one." And this was the sort of role...it gave the
leadership a different...many, many people in positions of leadership
lose respect for the people. They don't recognize that in a time of
intense struggle that people react with much more wisdom than they're
credited with having. And so they had their meeting and they devised a
strategy; apparently it worked. But this was indicative of the way the
united front worked on that particular level. And the fact that...well,
I attended meetings during the period of the strike when they were trying
to organize people to take positions of leadership in the union.
Nobody... very few people had any confidence that they would be able to
follow the lead of these guys that were real operators. These
organizers, they looked to as being real, almost magicians. But once
they learned that they could, once they learned that this was not any
magic gift, but that they had the ability, many of them became very
arrogant afterwards and became notable leaders. But there was a real
dearth of leadership in which you had to just pick people and tell them,
"Listen, you're the committeeman; you've got this job." And inside of a
month's time they were acting like professionals and making a lot of
mistakes then, that they didn't make in the beginning. But this was
the... Without the united front, without the support of the foreign-born,
without the Communist Party, it's very hard to see how, at that time, the
union could have been organized in Flint.
LEIGHTON: The meetings that you went to...what was the nature of them?
Where were they held?
SHINN: Well, there were meetings at that time...there were still meetings
being held in basements, there were still blacked-out basement windows
because of police spying. There wasn't quite the security in regard to
checking people that attended the meetings when I came that there was
prior. Some of the meetings Travis tells about and all, and I'm sure
they happened because it was still very much in vogue. You know it gets
rather fascinating operating in a clandestine way. Some people continued
to do so after the necessity because they liked the...they got carried
away by the mysteriousness of it.
LEIGHTON: It was good theater. Bob would be the first to tell you that.
SHINN: Oh, Bob's an actor; Bob's a great actor and a great person who was
damaged somewhat by the adulation that was given him. But who in the
hell isn't? I attended many, many meetings when you get scared to death
you're going to be raided by the cops. I never attended a meeting that
was raided. I have been near them and I've been just avoided them, but I
never happened to get into one of those that were broken up by either the
cops or some organized opposition that just came in and created a
disturbance.
LEIGHTON: At these meetings, were the meetings primarily of people from
the various political groups or were they just workers within a plant
or...
SHINN: Primarily workers within the plant, with local leaders, primarily
the local leadership...this was the period of a great upsurge of hitherto
unutilized, untapped talent. You had your Lou Barrities who turned out
to be not much, but was a great parliamentarian. Your John McGill, of
course, John McGill wasn't in those meetings, but your Jimmy Widmarks and
your Howard Fosters and...these people come forward and showed a great
deal of skill and understanding...people that you didn't even realize
they had any education at all. You found out they were very well
informed people. And then as the blacks began to become involved you...
LEIGHTON: I wanted to ask you on that question...do you remember a fellow
from even before the strike, a fellow named Spotts, Jim Spotts?
SHINN: I remember the name, but I can't really place him.
LEIGHTON: I was wondering whether you did.
SHINN: No.
LEIGHTON: You leave because you're laid off at Buick after the strike.
Did you know Henry Clark?
SHINN: I knew Henry Clark. I knew Henry Clark. Henry Clark had a lot of
talent. And there was a Buchanan...what was his first name?
LEIGHTON: It began with a J, I think, wasn't it?
SHINN: I think so; anyway he was a very capable individual who had an
ability to speak with clarity and convince people.
LEIGHTON: Did you go to meetings where these fellows were?
SHINN: Oh, I was at meetings all the time. In fact, I became almost a
meeting addict.
LEIGHTON: Was it rare to find blacks and whites together in a meeting?
SHINN: No, it became more common. But it was a long time before the
white...other than the Communist...would be seen with a black too closely
or take a black to a restaurant or have a black visit their home. In
fact, it became quite easy to determine who the Communists were, because
they were about the only ones that invited blacks to their homes. And
they lived in white neighborhoods usually and in fact this was one of the
criticisms of me in 1954, by the neighbors, was that I had black people
visit my home, which automatically established me as a Communist.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: This has been a very, very difficult issue to deal with here. And
a lot of progress has been made; but there's still a long way to go.
LEIGHTON: Do you remember a fellow named Prince Combs?
SHINN: Oh, yes.
LEIGHTON: Were the meetings held over at his place?
SHINN: I never attended a meeting at his place.
LEIGHTON: He apparently played quite a role in organizing the foundry
workers, along with Henry Clark.
SHINN: Yes, he did. He played an important role.
LEIGHTON: And his wife, as well. I understand his wife is very ill now.
Was there anything else from that period...when you first started? You
must not have worked at Buick very long, did you?
SHINN: The first time it was a very...let's see about actually six
months, I guess, the first time. But it was a very important time for me
because it was the time when the union was just organized, when I began
to get the feel of things, when I saw the power of the union. The power
was almost...oh the power of the working people in Flint for the first
six months after that strike was something you could never really believe
without experiencing.
LEIGHTON: What were some examples of it that you recall most vividly?
SHINN: One example was that the police almost became non-existent. You
didn't even see them. They kept out of sight. They had been so...they
had made so many bad moves and they were so completely...by the working
people...so completely exposed and...what would you call it?
LEIGHTON: Discredited?
SHINN: Discredited, was the word I was looking for; I don't know why I
couldn't find it. They were so discredited that they kept pretty much
out of sight. And at those first six months...and there was unity, there
was a lot of unity, more unity than disunity. Had we had a leadership
that knew how to take advantage of that, there was an opportunity to
really make tremendous strides.
LEIGHTON: What were some of the things that they were trying to do that
you remember?
SHINN: Oh, there was a tremendous organizational move on the part of
every worker--the restaurant workers, the county workers. There was a
big upsurge of organization. There was quite a few...there was a
workers' theater that developed.
LEIGHTON: Oh, who was active in that?
SHINN: I think at that time that Kennedy Turner, who had had some
experience acting some place and several of the...I believe that Jack
Herrlich's wife was active in it. It was quite successful; it wasn't a
big thing, but it was an important development. You know these things
seem so normal and unimportant at the time and then the fact that they
were not reconstructed sooner makes them very vague.
LEIGHTON: What about athletic leagues, that kind of thing. Did the union
tend to take those over, and take them away from the IMA?
SHINN: Yes, the union did. George Radeka played a very important part in
that. They had a union athletic program.
LEIGHTON: Prior to that the IMA had run most of the programs.
SHINN: The IMA had controlled the athletic part quite tightly. And the
union became a serious competitor. I think a lot could be done in
researching the role of Mott in Flint. I think Mott played a much more
dual role than most people realize. For instance, it used to be very
common to go to Steadman’s and see Mott...
LEIGHTON: What was Steadman’s, a cafeteria?
SHINN: That's where we went, to Steadman’s.
LEIGHTON: Oh, okay, I remember.
SHINN: And to see Mott with a group of labor hacks. And I think he liked
to associate with these people, because I think he so overawed them with
his money and power that they didn't sponge on him. You know, workers
have certain...most people...his relationship with professionals was one
whenever they always wanted money. And he was a very tight guy; he wore
his pencils right down until he had to strip them with his fingernails,
and a very interesting individual. But one thing that has to be
recognized, and there's certain positives in Mott's behavior, was that
Mott stayed in Flint. He was the only real billionaire created by
General Motors that stayed here and made this his base. And Mott had
tremendous political savvy, far more than most people realize. He was a
very conservative Republican, but he knew where the real power lay. And
he always took the correct positions publicly, but he always maintained
strong contacts with the blacks. Edgar Holt, my God, is scared to death
of Mott. Yes, his wife worked for Mott. And when the blacks were
demonstrating in front of Smith-Bridgman's when that belonged to Mott,
Edgar Holt almost had convulsions because he didn't want to displease
Mott. And this was because Mott had exerted the power of his position
and his personality on Edgar Holt to the point where Edgar Holt feared
him more than he respected him. But Mott was a powerful character and
Mott probably was completely ruthless. Of course, with his first wife,
they always said he pushed her out of the window. She jumped out of the
window apparently and committed suicide.
LEIGHTON: Well, you've read the little excerpt from Hard Times, Studs
Terkel's book, where Mott wanted to shoot the workers out of the factory.
Frank Murphy was absolutely wrong, he said.
SHINN: Oh, yes. But this...for instance, Mott would be in Steadman’s.
And most of the workers that would take part in this were hacks, most of
them. But there were a few pretty good guys during the period of
unemployment after the strike that became involved in the Mott Foundation
sports program, which took over after the IMA became somewhat
discredited.
LEIGHTON: Okay, now we're on to my favorite topic. This was the
influence of Frank Manley, wasn't it?
SHINN: Frank Manley was Mott's hired hand, yes.
LEIGHTON: And was this the time then when Manley was putting together
this community education planning.
SHINN: Yes, but Mott was very much in charge. You go ahead and ask some
questions; I'm wandering all over.
LEIGHTON: Okay. This question of Mott is fascinating.
SHINN: I don't know as it's important at all, but I think it's been
neglected, maybe not, maybe others have raised it, I don't know.
LEIGHTON: No, they haven't.
SHINN: Course you know his background. He was elected mayor of Flint
1911 or 1912 to stem the Socialist tide.
LEIGHTON: To knock off Menton, who was a Socialist.
SHINN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: Well, that's interesting to see, because I think...did that
continue? One of the questions, in case you had run into it, in the
public schools in Flint, and of course this would have been after you had
graduated. Did you notice any increase as the union in this six-month
period got stronger? Was there also a corresponding increase in this so-called
community education program, the Frank Manley program?
SHINN: I'm sure there was.
LEIGHTON: The visibility of Mott in the field of education paralleling...
SHINN: Mott reacted very, very expertly and he had the money to buy the
best equipment and brains to do it and very effectively. He countered
with a program that was not a frontal attack in any sense, but a dual
program that was completely unpolitical, or appeared to be so. It was
very political in its actual content. Mott had an understanding of Flint
that a lot of progressives didn't have and Mott never, never jeopardized
his power base here. And he didn't panic during the bank holiday in 1933
and he didn't panic during the strike situation. He was bitterly anti-
Roosevelt and the New Deal days and he was bitterly anti-union. But he
always maintained a certain perspective of reality that I think indicates
that he has been very effective in countering any great advance of the
labor movement here. And his son in New York may recognize some of these
things, but doesn't know what it was all about.
LEIGHTON: Did you personally ever encounter any of these kind of programs
and things?
SHINN: I didn't myself, but Bill Connolly was active with Mott. He
worked with Mott in the Manley program at the beginning.
LEIGHTON: Bill Connolly?
SHINN: Bill Connolly. He's the father of the William E. Connolly that
authored the book, Pluralism.
LEIGHTON: Yes, I know him.
SHINN: Do you know William E.?
LEIGHTON: Yes, and I know his father; we interviewed him.
SHINN: Oh, you interviewed...
LEIGHTON: Down in Florida.
SHINN: He had an automobile accident which changed his whole personality
back in 1952.
LEIGHTON: That's right.
SHINN: But he was a tremendous individual; he was just seventeen-eighteen
during the strike in Fisher Body. He was quite influenced by the
Trotskyites...in a positive influence in his case, because he
became...and he was one of my strongest supporters during the period I
went through in Fisher Body, a very loyal friend, a tremendous
individual, one of my...a person that I know...like Donnie Smeaton used
to say, that Scotchman, "I know him like I wheeled the ship to make him."
And I know Bill Connolly very well, and he was one of the most
intuitively clever organizers I've ever seen operate. He was able to do
things that...in the sense of knowing how to manipulate and manage people
which...he had a lot of arrogance along with it. But he was a very
clever individual, and basically a real good union man. I don't like
that word basically, I hear it so much. But he was a very fine human
being and a very intelligent guy. He was one of the real, authentic
products of Flint. But I want to tell you more about Bill Connolly. And
I told him this long before he was able to establish, or even thought of
establishing in Flint. But this man was his great-uncle.
LEIGHTON: Oh, my, oh.
SHINN: And his father was a very strong conservative, Bill's was. But
his father went back to Ireland, his father was James' brother, Thomas,
who finally got lost in the movement of the Irish people around. Anyone
that has tried to reconstruct the history of the Connollys, they lost
Thomas. Thomas apparently either came over himself or he sent his family
over during the time of one of the risings, prior to...one of the earlier
risings. Of course, James was executed in 1916. And he was active in
IWW. You probably know more about him than I do. But whatever, this man
was a man that I learned a great deal from. And I had the deepest
respect for him, and still do. I love Bill Connolly. Bill Connolly's a
guy that just almost always, without any intellectual preparation, was on
the right side. He wasn't fooled by the Trotskyites, he wasn't fooled by
the Communists. Of course, the Trotskyites had a lot more connection
with him than the Communists ever did. But he was very independent,
almost probably too much of an individualist for his own good. But he
was a great organizer and he could drive management right up the wall and
he had a lot of courage and a lot of just plain good working-class sense.
I'm sure you interviewed Joe Devitt.
LEIGHTON: Yes, we have to go back and talk to him some more.
SHINN: Were you able to get through? Joe's a very, very reserved guy,
but he knows a lot. I've never been able to draw anywhere near what I
know I could...but I know it exists in Joe. Joe's a good guy. You talk
to him about Mike Radeka. He may dismiss Mike as just nothing important.
But Joe has a much more serious view of things than Bud Simons, and he's
much more apt to be right. Joe is not a frivolous person at all; he's a
fine person. He's one that came from Grand Rapids, along with Simons,
and Walt Moore and...
LEIGHTON: And Jay Green.
SHINN: Yes, Jay Green. And they were very important. But you know,
putting the lid on the protest of the workers in Fisher number 1 changed
the whole character of Fisher number 1 union.
LEIGHTON: I wanted to ask you about that. You say, "Put the lid on." You
mean on the wildcat strike following...?
SHINN: The fifty-seven people that were fired.
LEIGHTON: When was this?
SHINN: That was back in 1937...summer or fall; I think it was late 1937
or early 1938. I'm not...but this was done to stop wildcat strikes.
LEIGHTON: Was it done with the connivance of the UAW or over the top of
it?
SHINN: I think it was done with the connivance of the UAW with
management. And I think the local leadership were involved in it. I
think the Proletarian Party played a somewhat negative role in this in
that they were very much sticklers for the word, for the purity of
theory, for the...a contract's a contract, you got to abide by it. I
never gave a damn about a contract. Bill Connolly never gave a damn
about a contract. Anybody that was ever successful on the bottom level
had to recognize that management had much more in any contract than the
union did, and you only used the contract when it was definitely to your
advantage. And as soon as they can get workers to become book- worms on
contracts and expert legalists, then they become very ineffective.
Because there's so much more there in just drawing from the enthusiasm
and the real problems of the workers and you have to...you know what I
mean, most of the grievances you win in opposition to the contract. You
win because you got the power there, because you can make management pay.
The last time I was penalized here not long ago and they were just
getting too nice to me. And I was feeling like I was being treated...you
know...and I was working with a group of young people on the second
shift. And I felt I was being made to look like some sort of a company
stooge. And in a situation like that, what do you do? What I mean, you
can't bounce on somebody's toe for being nice to you. And if the
problems aren't of a spectacular nature you can't...so you have to,
somehow or other get these people away from you. And I'm not a rude
person. Bill Connolly could have done it without any problem, but it was
a real major problem for me, because I do not like to be uncourteous to
people. And at the same time, I don't like to be made a sucker out of. I
don't like to be used. I was a relief man, it was nineteen...after our
big strike in 1969 and 1971 or 1972 in Fisher Body 2. I was a relief man
and they were doing a lot of things wrong, but management's clever. My
general foreman was a guy that at one time had been my alternate
committeeman when I was a committeeman...a nice guy, but a real bastard,
too. But he was always nice to me; he always treated me good. Well,
anyway, I was looking for an opportunity to really find something in
which I could state a position to get these guys off from being so
friendly and make them act right, because I didn't like their feigned
friendship. I knew it wasn't real and I didn't like it. Well, anyway,
he was experiencing production difficulties and so as a general foreman
he came and he corrected some work that I had had to let go because I
couldn't finish my job with that uncorrected. He corrected it and then
he asked me, "Now Charlie, get this." And I said, "I'm sorry, it's out
of my work area." Well it really wasn't but as far as I was concerned I
thought this was a good time to just make an issue of something. And I
figured I would be penalized and I figured I would lose the penalty. And
I never lost a penalty in my life; and I'd been penalized so many times
you could write a book on it. And I'd always been very careful; my
Mennonite righteousness stood me in good. I was always careful to make
sure that I could be right. Well, anyway, I wanted a penalty and I
thought, well I'm going to play this. I refused to do what he asked me
to do. I just simply said, "I just can't reach it." And this was just
an attempt on my part to show that a lot of things that have to be done
in the way of maintaining organizing in the shop have to be done with a
great deal of just leadership from the very bottom and just playing it
intuitively. You cannot organize anything according to a book; anybody
knows that, not even your classes in school. You have to develop a lot.
And yet there are always a lot of legalists, always a lot of people that
learn the book so well and they're really...they're clever. And they're
very useful. But they also can be a pain in the neck when they begin to
parade their cleverness and their intelligence, which really isn't
intelligence, more or less learning things by heart and applying
something in a very mechanical and unworkable way. But anyway, this guy
insisted that I get it and I just insisted that I just couldn't reach
it...just real quiet, no loud talk, no anything. So I knew I'd be called
to the office because I refused an order. And I didn't refuse an order
and yet I did refuse an order, you know. It was one of these things that
you could play with. And so I got called to the office and here was a
labor relations man that I'd also served on the union committee with
who...and you had a certain special distrust and animosity toward people
who had been active in the union and then became members of management.
And Ken Hayes was there with this labor relations man. So when I went
in...my committeeman was an alcoholic who was very...I didn't have too
much confidence in him; I liked him as a person, but I considered him a
political hack that I didn't have... So I said, "Listen, don't say
anything, just keep your mouth shut. Don't say anything." And so we
went in and so they...the general foreman explained it. He said,
"Charlie was polite, but he just refused to do it." I said, "I'm sorry,
I couldn't reach it." And just kept this petty little line. And they
had to penalize me Thursday night. And I liked a long weekend anyway and
I figured, I'll lose it. But what the hell. Well, anyway, they
penalized me; they sent me home. Here was a bunch of young guys; they
weren't especially union-conscious or anything. I had no idea what this
would do. I had no idea what the repercussions that would occur from it.
I didn't have that idea in mind at all. Well, I went up north and I had
a hell of a good weekend and was feeling damned good, and I no sooner got
back in the plant than a big Indian guy from Alabama, Cherokee Indian,
came over with a big smile on his face...one of the cleverest guys that
you can have in a working situation, because he just had an awful lot of
intuition. He could do things I could no more dare do than try to fly.
But anyway, he came over with a big grin on his face, he said, "By God,
did we give them hell after you left." And he said...he begin to tell
the things they'd done. He had the whole damn department stirred up, you
know...guys that had always gone along with management. And he'd gone
around and said Kenny Ray penalized old Charlie. Let's show him. And
they had to work two hours overtime that night; they got everything all
fouled up. They lost production. Now, this was not sabotage. That's
the first thing management will holler, sabotage. They just didn't do
those extra things that you have to do in any production. They just
simply quit cooperating; and this is the greatest...if people only knew
it...this is the greatest weapon working people have. All you have to do
is not do the extras, just do what you're told.
LEIGHTON: Do it by the book.
SHINN: Just stick by the book, then. That's one time to go by the book.
If you want to foul things up, start going by the book. And this is what
they did. And they had that so fouled up. And the next night they had
it equally fouled up. Once you lose this rhythm, it's the hardest thing
in the world to re-establish it. But it will come back, because people
like to do a good job. And they like to cooperate. It is a game to
begin with and it lasts sometimes much longer than it should and it can't
be controlled by the union, it can't be controlled by management. It's a
little dangerous because of the anarchistic factor in it. But it,
nevertheless, is very effective sometimes. And this is what was
happening back in the time of the...there was all kinds of little...and
they didn't have sufficient experience to go beyond the sit-down strike.
If they had had a little more experience, they could have struggled a
little more effectively without making themselves vulnerable to the
attack by management. But they didn't have the experience then; and they
did the only way they knew. And I'm sure there was tremendous untapped
talent that came into play there that created all kinds of problems for
management. And management knew this; that's part of the reason they
didn't press it any further than they did. Because they knew that
they...they were not fools; they knew people. And they knew that they
had run into something that they needed the union. And they often used
the union to settle a lot of their problems. They were very important.
LEIGHTON: You're right on something, and that's one of the...talking
about particularly the period after the strike of the wildcats. And the
argument has been made, the charge has been made, that the Communist
Party, particularly because of Travis and Krause and others were then
alleged and since probably known to be members. But the Communist Party
was accused as being the primary element in suppressing the work
stoppages, wildcats.
SHINN: They probably were.
LEIGHTON: Oh, I just wondered whether you found that to be the case.
SHINN: This embarrassed the leadership, because they couldn't quite...
Anarchy is dangerous...when it becomes widespread, which was true there.
It became something that they were not ready to cope with and they were
not aware of how inevitable and necessary a certain amount of that
was...that spontaneity in order to develop. You know, I'm absolutely
against anarchy; and yet, I'm for autonomy, I'm for a great deal of
freedom, I'm for...I don't believe in interposing my will on anybody
unless there's a reason. And this created a problem that they were not
prepared to handle. And I think likely that they played a role that made
them look like company stooges in many cases. It's so easy to get into
that bind, especially people who were stupid enough to follow what they
thought to be the Communist Party line.
LEIGHTON: You mentioned the fifty-seven who were fired at Fisher 1 in
this period right after the strike. Were they identified with any
particular faction, or were they just wildcatters?
SHINN: They were primarily just ordinary guys. There may have been an
agent provocateur among them, but there might not have been any. And
this was very unfair, because a lot of these people were in this thing
without...and a lot of them, no doubt, were doing the right thing.
They simply were in a situation where you had to do something and they
did all they knew to do.
LEIGHTON: And yet they weren't getting any leadership or being supported
by the leadership.
SHINN: They weren't getting the leadership; the leadership wasn't there.
They didn't know, and you have to know in order to lead. You have to
know where you're going.
LEIGHTON: So even the Simons, the Devitts, the Greens and so on weren't
able to do it.
SHINN: They weren't able to handle it and they were willing to sacrifice
good workers in order to save what they perceived to be their own image
of being leaders.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: And this...understand, I wasn't there...and certainly...but this
is what I have always surmised to be somewhat the situation, because
after that Fisher Number 1 always had a very tightly controlled union
that didn't have very much enthusiasm for struggle. They've had very,
very few strikes. And you cannot have a union organization if you don't
have periodic strikes. I somewhat agree with Jefferson in that you have
to have these occasional rebellions. Because this is where the workers
learn. In Fisher Number 2, this was one of the most backward groups of
workers in the city.
LEIGHTON: In Fisher 1 or Fisher 2?
SHINN: Fisher 2. One thing that gave them an awful lot of freedom, they
never had any Communists in the union until I came along. They were
militant as hell. And yet they were militant as hell when they
threw me out of the plant, too.
LEIGHTON: Well, when did you go to work in Fisher 2?
SHINN: I went to work in Fisher 2 in 1949 after I left Buick and had gone
into business for myself in a black community, but a very, very important
education in working with black people. Then my wife died and I knocked
around for a year thinking I never wanted to go back to work in the shop.
I got a job in Fisher 2 and I worked there for twenty-five years. I'd
worked in Buick for eight. So this Fisher 2 experience was something
entirely new. And I, in a sense, in the sense that they had never
contended with anybody with a Marxist education, with a serious Marxist
education. And I'm certainly not...I don't consider myself a Marxist.
But I had certain training in this that gave me...well, the concept of
unity was something that they had never worked at seriously. They had
always controlled their factions by the strongest being dominant. And I
was able...in Fisher 2...to work with all factions and never become too
closely aligned with anyone. And I had this training and discipline as a
Mennonite and as a Communist that they come to trust me. And they began
to recognize that this son of a bitch isn't afraid of struggle. And
this...when you're consistently involved in meaningful struggle, you get
support. I've always been quite negative regarding many things. I never
realized the support I would get when I'd be thrown out. I used to come
into that plant when I realized that was shaping up thinking, by God,
some morning I'm going to come in here and I won't have a friend in the
place. I'll be completely by myself. And what surprised me most was not
the violence. What surprised me most was the fact that people that I
least expected supported me.
LEIGHTON: When you went back into Buick in ‘39 and you worked there for
what...eight years, then, from ‘39 to?
SHINN: Approximately, yes, to ‘45. I started in ‘37 and actually I had
around six years seniority. But it was over a period from ‘37 to ‘45,
over an eight-year period. But I didn't have a full eight-year seniority.
LEIGHTON: When you came back, because you had been out of town...because
you had been out of town and then you came back into Flint. And you
encountered this situation where the Communist Party is really locked in
a big struggle, right in the middle of this factionals. And you'd been
kind of out of touch with all of this, would that be correct?
SHINN: This was when I came back was the period in which I joined the
Communist Party.
LEIGHTON: Yes, but what I'm saying, you'd been out of touch with the
struggle in Flint.
SHINN: I'd been fairly well informed because of my brother being here all
the time. I was fairly well informed, but I'd been out. I'd come back
rather fresh; in fact, I would argue with my brother up until I finally
joined the Communist Party myself. I would argue with him; I was very
skeptical. Well, I was conditioned by all various anti-Communists.
LEIGHTON: What made you decide to join?
SHINN: Well, the people I was working with. I hired into a plant that
was unique in ‘39. It was the parts and service plant where we filled
orders, and we had little carts and we could run all over the place and
you could talk to people fairly freely without too much trouble. And it
happened that Casper Kenney and Lou Baraty and Bruce Widmark worked in
that plant. And my brother had the reputation for being a progressive
and they logically convinced me that they were the most dependable and
they were the organization that could function in a most rational manner
during that time. And I think they were; I think they were.
LEIGHTON: Cap Kenney was already in the party then.
SHINN: Cap Kenney was already in. Have you interviewed Cap?
LEIGHTON: I met him. We were planning, and he died. We never got to it;
he was up at Cadillac.
SHINN: Yes.
LEIGHTON: He died last year.
SHINN: Cap was...it's a shame, because Cap was one of the...and Cap was a
Catholic. Cap was one of the most successful Communists in Flint in
working with ordinary people. But he was corrupted by whiskey and
politics and so forth. But he was a great guy.
LEIGHTON: No, we saw him one year at the picnic and he looked to be in
great health. And he apparently went down the hill.
SHINN: Cap used to drink when he was in the shop. He used to drink a
fifth of whiskey a day. I never saw him when he appeared to be drunk in
any way. I remember going over to Cap's place one time after work, and
he had a recreation room in the basement. We went down there and he just
said, "Chuck, how would you like a cup of coffee." I said, "That's
fine." He said, "Better still, how about a shot of good whiskey?" So he
pours this shot of whiskey and tells me how good it is. I never drank a
shot of good whiskey in my life; it's all medicine as far as I'm
concerned. But I did what I thought you were supposed to do with
whiskey. I just picked it up and drank it. And he says, "Oh, no, no,
no, no! Never, never drink good whiskey like that! That's all right for
this cheap stuff if you just want to feel it. Never drink good whiskey
like that! With good whiskey you just touch it to your tongue and let it
just warm you all the way around." And I never forgot; and you know
after that that's the way I drank whiskey and I found out it was much
more warming.
LEIGHTON: Oh, yes, and it's much easier; your system doesn't go into
shock.
SHINN: I'll never forget that. He said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no." And I
thought, "Well what the hell have I done?"
LEIGHTON: But at any rate, when you went back into Buick and you see this
struggle for leadership, not only in the International, with the Martin
faction coming out in the Cleveland convention. But here in Flint, was
the party still exercising any kind of leadership or had it either been
destroyed or had it voluntarily taken itself out and abandoned the work?
SHINN: The party made some very serious sectarian errors. And many of
them were made by the local people. Lou Baraty was very influential in
Buick. And Lou was a stickler for the proper line, would bore you to
death with speeches and resolutions on supporting the Soviet Union, and
gave the party an appearance of being a foreign agent. You know it was
something that all of the...I think everybody but Lou in the party in
Buick recognized the incorrectness of this, but nobody could contend with
Lou Baraty. He was intellectually pure; and he done a lot of reading and
had a tremendous understanding of the political economy in a mechanical
sense. But he obviously was...and this kind of sectarianism, I think,
was probably more pronounced in Buick than any place else. But on the
other hand, we had the tightest organization at Buick of any place. We
had a very tight organization and everybody respected Lou as a person.
But he gave very bad leadership. Jimmy Widmark was a much better
organizer, had a better intellect, and was able to work in the united
front. Whereas Lou isolated us from the united front, tending to...and
we would take positions in the local union that were completely
untenable, that didn't need to be taken. We took good position on
questions of struggle, too, but this was often times secondary to support
for the Soviet Union and one thing and another. It put us at odds with
the New Deal, with Roosevelt. And we were overly zealous about the
righteousness of John L. Lewis, who was not very righteous. And a lot of
very serious mistakes were made at that period in Buick. And I think
they were somewhat in a less way characterizing the local party.
LEIGHTON: Did you have much contact with the groups with party members in
other plants in Flint?
SHINN: Yes, we did.
LEIGHTON: I don't know where the party was other than in Fisher 1.
SHINN: I think that they became very sectarian, partly because of the
attacks, but largely because of their own inability to recognize the
situation as it existed here, and their idolization of the Soviet Union.
LEIGHTON: Did you find that the party began...and I gather, don't let me
put words in your mouth...that it really had an inability to communicate
with guys on the shop floor, was one of the big problems.
SHINN: As such, but we had some great communicators as far as people like
Jimmy Widmark and Bob Doud and, in fact, we had the best--we had the
cream of the crop. And we had good relations with a lot good people too,
like John McGill and Buchanan and we had very good relations with the
black people in the shop because of our position. And because we allowed
the bureaucracy to label us and isolate us.
LEIGHTON: The “bureaucracy,” meaning?
SHINN: The union leadership, the elected leadership who were, to a great
extent, quite opportunistic. And had there been a properly functioning
Communist Party, probably they would have been supporting it, many of
them.
LEIGHTON: Did you find that after the Cleveland convention, and I believe
R. J. Thomas became president then, the fact that Mortimer did not become
president...did the party begin to abandon Flint at all?
SHINN: Mortimer still came around a lot; and Mortimer was very highly
respected. Travis was always highly respected.
LEIGHTON: Well, I meant the party from the national level.
SHINN: They did, they tended to...we saw very little of them around
Flint. They went on to more lucrative fields. And they didn't have
a...they weren't able to...they sort of abandoned it, because the
leadership here was not capable of maintaining a working relationship
with the trade union movement. We became isolated, and it was a very
very difficult time, very difficult.
LEIGHTON: And you saw that isolation coming primarily from the union
bureaucracy, the UAW bureaucracy.
SHINN: Oh, yes, we were never isolated from the people in the plant.
LEIGHTON: No, but the people who were working to isolate you, would you
consider what? The Reuthers...
SHINN: Reuther played a role in it, the Association of Catholic Trade
Unionist played a big role, and they had played a very positive role at
one time. But they...I think we almost invited their opposition, because
of their deep mistrust of the Soviet Union, and our failure to place the
proper emphasis on local issues.
LEIGHTON: And basic local trade union...
SHINN: See, they always were accusing you of placing too much emphasis on
local issues and not enough on the overall issues. Well, if you
don't...there is a balance there. And the ordinary trade unionists, the
ordinary worker, I think, has a tendency to become overly narrow and not
to see the... But when the leadership becomes remote, they fail to
properly evaluate what actually is going on.
LEIGHTON: Do you think that was because they were intellectualized, the
leadership, in terms of running things by the book, as you'd said before.
Only in this case...
SHINN: Probably in the sense that they were based in New York and that
the majority of the membership in New York were professionals...it
probably was true.
LEIGHTON: The thing I want to get to, to finish up maybe, was your own
story, which is basically what happened? You mentioned being thrown out
of the plant. How did you get to that stage? You were obviously
strongly identified, as you mentioned during the war, in the meeting as a
Communist; and then people knew it. And I would guess in the thirties
that was not much of a handicap, but progressively became one as the
scare went along.
SHINN: Well, when I went back into the plant in 1949 the reaction had
already very deeply set in.
LEIGHTON: Well, you left Buick in ‘45. What did you do with the four
years in between?
SHINN: Then I was in business for myself, up on St. John Street, which
was something that I very much enjoyed. And I'm not a businessman and I
recognized that I didn't want to be a businessman. But this was a great
education for me, in working with black people. And I have been
idealistic, in a politic way, and developed some very close black
associates. In fact, Eugene Miller worked with me in the store that I
had up there. His family lived there, very, very fine people. Of
course, Eugene today is a supervisor in Fisher 1.
LEIGHTON: So you went back in ‘49 into Fisher 2.
SHINN: Yes, into Fisher 2. I got hired back in there; they wouldn't hire
me back in Buick. But I got a recommendation.
LEIGHTON: Why wouldn't they hire you in Buick?
SHINN: Because of Communist...and they hired me into Fisher 2 without
fully screening. And once they found out, they done everything they
could to fire me. And I was very, very careful and developed a good work
record. And by the time they got ready to fire me I was pretty solid in
the union and they weren't able to do anything.
LEIGHTON: So, despite the union bureaucracy and everything, you did
manage to get some fairly good support. I know you had mentioned worker
support.
SHINN: Fisher number 1 had never gone through the intense factionalism
involving Communists. This was something that they only saw as a...and I
was no threat; I was not a Communist Party. I was an individual who had
been a Communist in so far as they were concerned. And I established a
good work relationship with the union bureaucracy and I was a very
committed union man. And that was a rough plant to work in; and when
things got rough...
LEIGHTON: What made it so rough?
SHINN: The constant...an assembly plant is a very, very delicate thing.
The whole production has to be constantly increased. And as you
constantly increase production, there's a constant resistance building
up. And management has the problem of affecting this without the
resistance becoming strong enough to disrupt production. And if you have
good union leadership and organization you can cope with it. If you
don't have good leadership, a lot of people get hurt, a lot of people get
fired. If you have sufficiently strong union, people don't get fired.
And people are constantly getting hurt, though. And the hurt is what
organizes the union. This keeps the need for a union there, and
management is the greatest organizer there is and always have been. But
they give you all the tools and it's amazing. And one mistake that
management makes, I think probably you could say is that they always
credit the genius of organizing to individuals. And it's not an
individual thing at all. It's a collective thing. And this was true
during the sit-down. They put down the role of the leaders. But my God,
the role of people like...well, like Howard Foster, who always just
worked on the line, never had any big job in the union. And you
can...there just was no way to estimate the role that was played by just
ordinary people.
LEIGHTON: You mentioned in ‘54...did they finally get you out of the
plant in ‘54?
SHINN: Oh yes, they got me out; they threw me out three times, and beat
me and tore my clothes off and the UAW supported me; they supported me
strong. I had good support in my local union and they had no choice but
to support me. Reuther, in fact, mentioned at the convention in
trying...dismissing the cases of what they called the colonizers...how
staunchly they had supported me. But not because they wanted to; they
did their best to discourage me from going back to work. In fact, I was
called into a room one day when I was out, and a UAW representative from
the regional office said, "Charlie, I don't want this to be discussed,
but General Motors has offered to buy your seniority. Would you be
interested?" And, being a Mennonite and a damned fool, I said, "You go
back and you tell those sons of bitches they don't have enough money to
buy my seniority." And he says, "Well, that's what I was afraid you
would say." And afterwards I thought, boy, you talk brave; you're not
half as brave as you talk. But he went back and he told them that. And
this was something...they normally didn't have this kind of a thing to
contend with, because with money, usually you can buy seniority, at
least. Everyone wants to get out of the shop, or they're supposed to at
some point. Nobody but a damned fool would want to stay. But as a
result...you see the mistake that many of them made was they listened to
the central bureaucracy in both the Communist Party and the union, and
stayed out for two weeks for a cooling-off period. Well, you didn't cool
this kind of a thing off; this was organized and I knew it. And anyone
of any sense knew it.
LEIGHTON: Now who stayed out for two weeks?
SHINN: The others...oh, all of the colonizers, all of the others. I was
the only one that went right back in. I was criticized for it by some
because they said...
LEIGHTON: The colonizers you were referring to were...
SHINN: People who came in from New York.
LEIGHTON: And that was in ‘49.
SHINN: And not only New York, they came in from other places in Michigan.
They came in from colleges in Ohio. This was a very poor move.
LEIGHTON: This was between ‘49 and...
SHINN: This was between ‘49 and ‘51, mostly. Some of them were quite
well established in the plant. They were a great bunch of people in the
main, very good. But they were sacrificed. Not so terrible as far as
the money point of view. Most of them went out and made a lot of money
after they were kicked out by management. They couldn't get jobs in
public institutions but private industry grabbed them up like they were
rare finds, and they were!
LEIGHTON: Why?
SHINN: They were very intelligent people and management recognized this.
And they couldn't do any damage; they'd been exposed and they had to be
good. And they used them. And most of them had college experience. And
even though the UAW didn't recognize it, management recognized right away
that these were people we want. These are people that can make...do
things for us.
LEIGHTON: Because they were innovative, creative, I guess.
SHINN: Yes, some of them made a lot of money afterwards. And some of
them turned...I still have good relations with some of them. And I have
a very...I'm very proud of my relations with some. Some of them are
teachers, some of them...one librarian. Some of them work with the...
LEIGHTON: Did most of them stay in the Flint area?
SHINN: Oh no, most of them went...have scattered all over. They come
back occasionally. I run into them; they call me. This is one thing
they mentioned. I had left the Communist Party because of...not really
because of differences, but because my wife was dead and I had three
small children and I rationalized. And I think directly that...hell, I
don't want to be thrown in jail. And there was a real possibility back
in that McCarthy period. And I just simply kind of just severed my...
LEIGHTON: So you left, what...’51?
SHINN: I left just about the time of ‘51. I wasn't really under the
direct discipline of the Communist Party in ’50, when I was thrown out,
and this stood me in good because I was able to not be interfered with in
the decisions I made. And I could honestly say I wasn't a member of the
Communist Party, while not denying anything in a way. I always said that
I have respect for the Communist Party. But it perhaps was a little
helpful that I could honestly say I was not a member of the Communist
Party.
LEIGHTON: At that time, were you called up in front of any of the...
SHINN: I was called, but I never testified. They didn't call me on the
stand.
LEIGHTON: Was that for what?
SHINN: Clardy? And I was given a subpoena to go to Washington, but it
was finally cancelled.
LEIGHTON: They adjourned the hearing before they got to you.
SHINN: They adjourned before I got there. And I don't think they really
wanted me. I couldn't give them what they wanted. And I was...I
happened to be fairly popular in my own work area. And they didn't care
about contributing to that.
LEIGHTON: And so you basically stayed and worked out until you retired.
And you just retired like a...
SHINN: After the beatings I had...I can say I never had it so good. I
had respect in that plant...oh, there's people to this day that when they
just look at me, they are so full of hate. But in the main, I developed
a very strong and good relationship with people.
LEIGHTON: I was going to ask you...on the beatings...was that...who hired
the thug? I assume that's what it was.
SHINN: Oh, I think...finally the way I really got back in...I had...on
his proposal, I had Max Dean prepare to bring charges against...to sue
General Motors' Kit Clardy and he Flint Journal. And the International
sent a man by the name of Bill...I don't know his name...he was in the
left-wing caucus at one time...and then went with the...he became a vice
president of the UAW, then he went with the AF of L, the old... Anyway,
they sent him up here to tell me, "Who in the hell do you think you are,
suing General Motors?" I wasn't working then. I said, "What the hell?"
"Oh," he said, "You know what they'll do to you? Why, they'll smear
you..." I said, "Listen fellow, they can't smear me; they already
smeared me. They've smeared me as much as they possibly can." "Well, I
guess you're right," he said. "But," he said, "furthermore the UAW
agrees not to go to court on these things." I said, "Hell, I'm not
working; you guys aren't promising me my job." We had a long, long talk
and my head of my bargaining committee, who is Catholic, who is a real
operator...Sam Sammarco, an Italian who had been with the ACTU...I never
really trusted him, but he was capable. Oh, he stuck with me; he was
like a tiger. And he argued with the...what's that guy's name...names
are something that bother me; I can't pick them up. But anyway, he...my
local union gave me tremendous support. In fact, I think they like to
see a guy get the shit kicked out and I think it gives them a...and it's
not bad. What I mean, it's a terrible thing to think of...what I mean,
nobody wants to be involved in mob...but it's not all that fearsome when
you're going through it. When you know, even that you might get killed
at the time, you know, that doesn't... Going back in oftentimes was a
very sick feeling; but the thing itself, you know...
LEIGHTON: How many times were you tossed out?
SHINN: Three.
LEIGHTON: Three. And they just what...just drag you off the shop floor
and throw you out?
SHINN: Well, the first time they dragged me off, threw me out. The
second time they beat the hell out of me and threw me out. And the third
time I was just sort of eased out by management.
LEIGHTON: But each of the three times you feel it was definitely the
corporation.
SHINN: Oh, yes. In fact, we had pretty good information that there was a
real estate outfit that was furnishing the outside impetus. And I think
the Flint Journal, my God, they had a reporter out there to take my
picture.
LEIGHTON: About the time you hit the street.
SHINN: Yes, and I think that they were very deeply involved in it; I
think that there was a conspiracy. I think that's why they put me back
to work so quick when I was going to... And the amazing thing was when I
went back to work there wasn't an incident. Management controlled it. I
told them...I made the point...I wasn't sure that I was right. I said,
"Management threw me out and management can keep me in." And that's the
argument that the union guys used with management. "You guys threw him
out." Well, they didn't like to be...and later on, even, when I had to
move my distance away from management at times, when I had to...I
remember one time in negotiations when they begin to praise me and
belittle the committeeman opposite me. And I said, "Just wait a minute;
I don't need any help from you to do my job. You guys tried to get me
killed and I never forgot it." I said, "Don't go throwing any bouquets
my way."
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: And this is something you could keep. And it worked quite
magically; they turned pale. They never knew how much you might know.
And they'd covered up...they'd done a fair job of covering up. But I
think we had enough information to indicate quite clearly that management
was directly involved, in my case. There might not have been in all the
others. But, well the fact that the beatings took place on company
property was a significant factor. And the fact that these guys...not
one of them were penalized. And they came up to my department to drag me
out of the place. There was foreman that were known to have been
instigators in organizing it. And most of the people who stayed...even
the real finks...apologized to me later on, at one time or another. But
the thing that put me in good there was the fact that I never became
intimidated. I never lessened my union activity and I had a lot of
support. I had no reason to. Other places, I wouldn't criticize anybody
else, because there were times if I had had to go through what Howard
Foster went through, I don't know that I could have taken it. I mean, he
was beaten repeatedly and put in the hospital with broken ribs, outside
of the plant. You know, you don't know what you can take until you...
And it's not a good feeling working all night in the plant and knowing
they're waiting outside with a bunch of vigilantes that are given the
green light by the police to beat the hell out of you.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SHINN: I would never fault for one minute the people who left, who just
simply gave up the fight. Without the support of my local union, I don't
know what I would have done. But this is part of the...just a very
incidental part of something that's been going on in every phase of
struggle. And people with less backing, it's happened and been
forgotten. And some of them have just simply been frightened out or been
destroyed or murdered for that matter, possibly. You don't know the
depth of it...because only a small part surfaced. And there was a lot of
luck involved. Events don't unfold the way they're planned to.
LEIGHTON: No, they don't...no they don't.