Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:36 pmPosts: 1764Location: Standing on the edge of the crater (like the prophets once said.)

Annon Kaies Zi wrote:

However, like what's been said in this thread, official/canon is what you make it. It seems really easy to consider only Tomino's UC to be canon for Universal Century. Makes things pretty simple, and less contradictory. However, then you're missing a lot of things. So another way to look at it is all animated UC. Then there's tons of novels, manga, games, and whatnot to add as you wish. Each fan must make their own line of canon to match themselves, as corny as that sounds. I pick-and-choose what I consider to be canon with novels and stuff. Some things I think make sense, and others I think are too far fetched or don't fit in tightly enough. But just because I don't consider it canon or whatnot doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it or want to learn about it. Fans don't have to limit themselves to what's canon and what's not. Make your own canon, but don't limit yourself to that.

My feelings exactly. To me, this seems to be the most appropriate way to deal with the situation. There seems to be a lot of confusion among both the western and sometimes even the domestic japanese fanbase as to what happened and didn't in the UC continuity, so I guess following your own version of the timeline may be the best way to sleep well at night.

_________________"I'd show Loni the power my parents gave me if you know what I mean."

Cardi Doorl

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:01 pm

Traitor Villain

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:06 pmPosts: 2340Location: 미합중국 버지니아주 페어팩스군

What I don't understand is that fans of western superhero comics (DC and Marvel and the like) have no problems dealing with a bajillion different continuities throughout the graphic novels, movies, shows, etc., often running concurrently and with messy continuity even within a particular version - yet fans of extensive sci-fi universes (like Gundam and Star Trek) are prone to having trouble accepting this kind of setup Why is one fanbase able to accept this while the other tends to struggle to grasp it?

_________________RPG TRINARY: GaiaDie Anti-brutale Kraft: Cardi Doorl

Make sure to check out the RPG section - We're about to start a new VOTOMS RPG!

Saikuba

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:45 pm

Creepy Bishonen

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:50 pmPosts: 204

Cardi Doorl wrote:

What I don't understand is that fans of western superhero comics (DC and Marvel and the like) have no problems dealing with a bajillion different continuities throughout the graphic novels, movies, shows, etc., often running concurrently and with messy continuity even within a particular version - yet fans of extensive sci-fi universes (like Gundam and Star Trek) are prone to having trouble accepting this kind of setup Why is one fanbase able to accept this while the other tends to struggle to grasp it?

It is probably because there is more of a precedent for that sort of thing in comics (both in the genre and in individual lines), especially since both DC and Marvel make use of the concept of alternate universes.

And even in other franchises fan reaction varies. William Shatner wrote a bunch of Star Trek books which generally aren't considered to be part of the main Star Trek continuity, for instance.

What I don't understand is that fans of western superhero comics (DC and Marvel and the like) have no problems dealing with a bajillion different continuities throughout the graphic novels, movies, shows, etc.

Comics fans have no problem with keeping track of alternate continuities--the Ultimate Marvel universe versus the regular one, for example, or parallel worlds like DC's Earth-One and Earth-Two, or "what-if" scenarios like DC's Elseworlds titles and The Dark Knight Returns, or separate movie and TV versions. But these are more like the alternate universes of Gundam Wing and G Gundam, self-contained worlds that seldom overlap with the mainstream continuity.

When it comes to continuity within the mainstream comics universe, American superhero comics creators and fans alike go totally bonkers. DC Comics, for instance, seems to spend more time nowadays trying to write decades-old stories in and out of continuity than it does telling new stories. At this point DC seems unable to go a couple of weeks without rebooting the universe to change whether or not Wonder Woman was a founding member of the Justice League. I wouldn't look to them as a model of laid-back continuity management.

Two questions. I remember that Aqua GM, originate from "black" M-MSV, is now given "white" status as part of Harmony. Is Sunrise redesign it or simply think it's good enough?

Second, with RGM-79FP GM Striker suppose to be variant of RGM-79F Land Combat GM. Does this mean RGM-79F got "gray" status?

_________________Love hurt, but I won't give up being lolicon.

mutantshark

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:53 am

Cardboard Leo Ace

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:40 pmPosts: 47

On the subject of the original Gundam movie trilogy vs the series - isn't it true that Tomino used the movies as an opportunity to remove some of the more super-robot elements from the story (Gundam hammer, G-armor etc). Does that count for anything? obviously the gap between the movies and the series is much less with MSG than it is with Zeta, but I wonder if Tomino himself imagines the first movies as closer to his personal vision of Mobile Suit Gundam?

_________________Where's the passion, where's the lump in my throat?

Chris

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:20 am

Bald Wizard

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:20 pmPosts: 4740Location: Miami, FL

mutantshark wrote:

On the subject of the original Gundam movie trilogy vs the series - isn't it true that Tomino used the movies as an opportunity to remove some of the more super-robot elements from the story (Gundam hammer, G-armor etc). Does that count for anything? obviously the gap between the movies and the series is much less with MSG than it is with Zeta, but I wonder if Tomino himself imagines the first movies as closer to his personal vision of Mobile Suit Gundam?

I think it was definitely a deliberate decision. Hell, if you look at the novels, he strips it down even more - the only mobile suits the Zeon use are the Zaku and Rick Dom, and as I recall, the only mobile armors are Elmeth and Braw Bro. I think the trilogy might be closer to his original vision, as that is what is most frequently visually referenced in later works. For example, in Char's Counterattack, when they reanimated the scene where Amuro kills Lalah, Sayla is shown in the Core Booster, not G-Fighter. OVAs like 08th MS and IGLOO feature their own versions of the Core Booster, not the G-Fighter.

_________________"What did catch my eye, however, was a podcast named Gundamn!. At first I thought it was a podcast about firearms and [rednecks] discussing their collection, but after looking at the episode titles I was sold." - Xhavalor

PSN: amuromsz006Nintendo Network: mariomsz006

ninjascience

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:09 pm

Mecha Flunky

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:00 pmPosts: 20Location: Portland, Oregon

please forgive me for brining this up late in the topic, especially if I missed someone else mentioning it in my scanning of the thread...

So AoZ seems to be "official" not just because Sunrise was involved in the series, but because a Hazel had a cameo appearance in the third Zeta movie. Sentinel's status seems to be a little shakier, it's only based on a Gaza-E appearance. But then it get's more complicated because AoZ makes reference too (but not any actual appearances of) the S-Gundam. The RX-272 Gundam Mark III "Haphley" is also referenced in AoZ, along with a few other obscure machines.

_________________Advance of Zeta and Meaningless War 0091 at mechascientic

I don't know if that brings all of AoZ into existence really. I'd say the existence of the said unit would be official, but everything else would be bon voyage so to speak. On top of that, most of the AoZ suits are just off the charts in terms of UC normalcy, so I still can't see how they fit in...

So AoZ seems to be "official" not just because Sunrise was involved in the series, but because a Hazel had a cameo appearance in the third Zeta movie.

Yep. That's the same reason MSV and MS-X are considered to have official standing. The Advance of Zeta and Gundam Sentinel cameos are less significant--each consists of a single still image in the background, and they aren't mentioned in Tomino's screenplay--but it seems like these brief glimpses would still elevate their sources above the vast herd of "gray area" spinoff stories. I wouldn't assume that there's some kind of transitive property that allows AoZ and Sentinel to "officialize" other stories referenced in their line art, though.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to figure out the status of things like Gundam Evolve. The new "Gundam Evolve Material" book includes a lot of comments from Sunrise producer Shigeru Horiguchi (who you may remember from the first post in this thread!), but at first glance he seems to avoid laying down a clear ruling on the official status of these episodes, beyond suggesting that we look at the Tomino-written episode 5 as a glimpse of what a "New Translation" of Char's Counterattack might look like. The book's editors also comment that Yasuhiko's character designs for episode 9 give it "a more official feeling" than the previous installments, which suggests that these episodes aren't official by definition. On the whole, in producing Gundam Evolve and Gundam the Ride, it seems like Horiguchi is trying to maintain compatibility with the official animated works rather than adding to them...

-- Mark

ninjascience

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:37 pm

Mecha Flunky

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:00 pmPosts: 20Location: Portland, Oregon

Quote:

I don't know if that brings all of AoZ into existence really. I'd say the existence of the said unit would be official, but everything else would be bon voyage so to speak.

I'd make the argument that AoZ as a whole is official due to the involvement of Sunrise AND the Hazel cameo, but you're right. By the strict definition of the "rule" only the Hazel is official (and it's not even clear from the cameo which Hazel it is).

Quote:

On top of that, most of the AoZ suits are just off the charts in terms of UC normalcy, so I still can't see how they fit in...

I could argue that point, but it would be out of place here so how about here?

_________________Advance of Zeta and Meaningless War 0091 at mechascientic

white, gray, black it's all so confusing sometimes. I tend to like the prequels and side stories because it helps "fresh out" the timelines and give the universal century, future century, after colony, after war, cosmic era and anno domini more sustance, otherwise the anime alone seems too linear. Deciding what's official seems like a fickle business, because what's canon can become uncanon(G-Fighter into CoreBooster or M' Quve dying in Texas Colony).

Take for example G Gundam, the background info of that universe is limited in the anime. 7th Fight was nice because it gave character history on Master Asia and Shuffle Alliance(who in the anime just showed up out of nowhere then sacrificed themselves).

Under the Moonlight, gives Gundam X universe much needed storytelling after the anime was shortened and cancelled.

After Colony stories Episode Zero, G-Unit, Battlefield of Pacifists and Frozen Teardrop helps the universe feel more complete especially FT because it finally gives character and mecha history.

Cloud, is there any reason why you decided to gravedig this thread for no reason after starting a thread about what's canon in Gundam? There was no point in posting here when you could've said the same in the thread you already started.

_________________"What did catch my eye, however, was a podcast named Gundamn!. At first I thought it was a podcast about firearms and [rednecks] discussing their collection, but after looking at the episode titles I was sold." - Xhavalor

So from what I can gather, the only things that are truly canon as we would call it, are the animated shows them selves. The mangas, games, novels, tech books and what naught all belong to various shades of gray (semi canon) to black (not canon). With much of the gray being around due to the item in question being mentioned in show (from what I can tell).

So how exactly dose this affect things like the units specs, time lines and other info?

Though the irony of it, it seems much of the info used on this site is technically of dubious canonicity.

As pointed out repeatedly in this thread, the term "canon" is quite unhelpful. Rather, we should use something like "official", because "canon" implies a measure of internal consistency which the animation utterly lacks, since both TV shows and various compilation movies are considered "true" and "official", even when they have significant divergences.

So, anything animated = "officially sanctioned by Sunrise". Anything else = "unofficial" and therefore...it may be true, or it may not. Thus we end up with the murky waters of individual judgment, and the fans' perennial horse-trading and attempting to make sense of secondary sources which make the differences between Zeta TV and A New Translation seem not worth mentioning.

Deciding what's official seems like a fickle business, because what's canon can become uncanon(G-Fighter into CoreBooster or M' Quve dying in Texas Colony).

Actually, as mentioned in other threads IIRC, BOTH the TV series AND the movies are considered official. Which one you think is MORE official, however, is up to you as either one can fit into the continuity without any problem.

As said, the movies seem more official simply because of the switching to the Core Booster and other series'/OVAs using the same concepts rather than the G Parts, but that did not automatically make the G Parts and M'Quve's death unofficial either, considering we never see M'Quve again after the One Year War either way.

_________________"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet

Finally saw episode 4 of Unicorn, liked seeing all the variations especially since now being animated makes them official and indirectly makes others that didn't appear official. For example the Nemo III appearing means the Nemo II was made, and the GM II Semi-Striker means the GM Striker was made.

I beleve that up to recently sunrise was not administering an proper cannon and would let any one makeing an game or manga make up new ms to fit there story line. The "Harmony of Gundam" project was meant to clean up the mess and provide an list of approved ms and story elements for side stories the Zaku I sniper and gm striker are products of the project.http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/harmony/index.htm

Jeff: No. This simply isn't the case, and I think if you read the actual thread you'll see why. Sunrise never really cared about what people did in games and manga because, according to Sunrise policy, none of that stuff was official anyway. The staff interviews I discussed at the start of this thread were published five years before the "Harmony of Gundam" project, and Sunrise's policy had already been in place for a long time. It's a simple rule, and not hard to understand.

CloudFF7: It does seem like the Z-MSV, ZZ-MSV, and CCA-MSV cameos in Gundam Unicorn are meant to give those spinoff lines the same kind of "official blessing" previously given to the MSV and MS-X series. (Not to mention the Gundam Sentinel and Advance of Zeta cameos in the Zeta movies.) I'm not sure how far this extends to the stuff we don't see on-screen, though. The appearance of the Efreet Schneid indicates that the regular Efreet must officially exist, but does this extend to the Gundam Pixie, which is cited in the interviews as a game creation that Sunrise really hates?

It might be interesting, at some point, to go through the MSV lists and check off the ones that have now been "officialized" via anime cameos. Some of these are direct (like the Zogok, Act Zaku, Guncannon Director, Nemo III, Geara Doga Heavy Arms, Proto Stark Jegan, etc). Some of these are implied (Galbaldy Alpha, Efreet, Nemo II). And some of them still haven't been acknowledged via the anime (Acg, Gigan, Zaku Diver, Re-GZ Custom).