Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 26, 2015 5:02:13 GMT -8

Yes it will be a new level, the differences between this and the original version will be a lot.

Anyway, all the problems I can think of are the following:

There are far too many planes, these will be removed.

The banana colored grunts were never used in the main game for a good reason, most likely they're a failed test. I have to replace them with something that's actually a threat, because these can literally do nothing to hurt.

It doesn't matter if it's a secret or not, infinite invincibility is far too good.

What's the point of that toy box early in the level? It serves no purpose and would be better off if it wasn't in the level at all.

These are all the problems I can think of, I will probably find more when I replay the original level and analyze it.

But I need the help from the rest of the community as well, when you guys have time, could you analyze this level? That'd be great. I need to find all the major problems so I can fix them in the remastered version.

Post by BattlezM on Jun 27, 2015 12:30:48 GMT -8

Well, I have at least a idea that could be good while keeping in theme with the level (that being planes dropping 'presents' on gruntz).

Honestly, all those object droppers were the only thing that made the level hard. Remove most of them, and you won't have much left, just some simple "go hit the button" puzzles. Perhaps you're referring to the mega cross of object droppers at the secret, and I'd concur with that.

Here's a fun "did you know": Object droppers deliver their presents on a 7 tile interval. So...this means if you have a grunt on tile 1 trigger the dropper, then a grunt on tile 4 would be safe from having a present dropped on him. This would allow you to hold down a switch safely for a long time, for instance to let a grunt perform a task or such. This makes the task of dealing with lots of droppers more manageable, though I would definitely describe this feature in the description. Also mark out the 'danger' zones with alternate clear tiles.

So you could have a small width level, say at 40 tiles wide, and have 2-3 object droppers scrolling horizontally on a single line. A grunt is put in to distract and protect another grunt that must stay on a switch. A 3rd grunt the performs something the 2nd grunt lets him do, such as navigate through lowered pyramids. Now you've got an interesting puzzle that mixes paying attention to multiple grunts, without having them be super far apart. You can also cascade this idea vertically though the level, making it taller and taller. One section involves pyramids, another involves bridges, perhaps another involves killing enemies and then swapping grunts out to suck up the goo, etc.

I'd say something like 3-4 sub puzzles of this sort would be enough to fill out a 40x60 level.

Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 28, 2015 4:00:02 GMT -8

Here are things I recently found out:

Pros:-The pink swordsguy in the beginning is a great challenge since it is possible to kill him with the gauntlets grunt, can make for some interesting challenge.-There are some plans that give a fair challenge.-The toy guy is an interesting challenge especially when you realize that the terrorist's bomb shouldn't fall on it.-The switches (purple and green) make for a fair challenge.-The thief could be a good challenge if he started stealing immediately I will fix that.-The arrow challenge the great.-The second thief is a great challenge.

Cons:-The thief doesn't steal the moment you get to the welder's kit.-Getting all the WARP letters is far too easy, these are supposed to be a challenge to get.-The toy boxes in the area of the WARP letters have no point.-The magic grunt is no threat and is far too easy to kill.-Far too many planes.-It's almost impossible to get all the coins in the secret area.-Speaking of the secret area there is no damn clue you can go there. I tried going to the spot I thought I originally put it and nothing happened.-No powerup should be eternal, it makes it far too easy, I don't know how to make that challenge with the shield grunts harder, but an invincibility powerup that lasts for eternity is what cheat codes are for, it shouldn't be part of the level.

Now if you'll excuse me I have a room to clean up, I will add the template to the first post later today I promise.

Also, I want more people to point out pros and cons with the level, with all your help, I can make it better. I will even credit the level "The Whole GooRoo's Forum Community" instead of Blaze The Movie Fan when the level comes out.

Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 28, 2015 14:00:20 GMT -8

Alright, the template is here, now it's up to the rest of you to replay the level and see if you can find any more flaws, I already have a few ideas how how to fix the level, but so far I don't know how to fix the eternal invincibility powerup and keep the shield grunts still there. I want to get rid of it entirely since it even makes it too easy if it's just for 2 minutes. Any suggestions?

Post by BattlezM on Jun 28, 2015 14:56:47 GMT -8

I'm not sure what happens for you with the shields, but the main problem with them is that they're smart chasers. Since wing gruntz are considered stronger than a shield, by the time wings warps in to the area, he will be completely ignored. The invincibility power-up is completely irrelevant, it's only useful to go reach the red warp trigger in the corner of the spikes. Even without the power-up, you can save health with the remaining wing power to make it there and back anyway.

Now, even in the event that you made them dumb chasers so that they actually attack wings, they're usually recovering stamina, so you'll barely get hit. I made this change and got hit...3 times. This was just with simple walking forward no matter what. The only challenge would be the boots grunt at the end since you're now under attack by the shields at the very end, I don't think that would be possible at all, actually.

I'd just move a horizontal plane further south and make it a puzzle to get a bomb drop on those last 6 shields you get a safe spot to stand on to kill the boots grunt with.

Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 28, 2015 15:13:23 GMT -8

I'm not sure what happens for you with the shields, but the main problem with them is that they're smart chasers. Since wing gruntz are considered stronger than a shield, by the time wings warps in to the area, he will be completely ignored. The invincibility power-up is completely irrelevant, it's only useful to go reach the red warp trigger in the corner of the spikes. Even without the power-up, you can save health with the remaining wing power to make it there and back anyway.

Now, even in the event that you made them dumb chasers so that they actually attack wings, they're usually recovering stamina, so you'll barely get hit. I made this change and got hit...3 times. This was just with simple walking forward no matter what. The only challenge would be the boots grunt at the end since you're now under attack by the shields at the very end, I don't think that would be possible at all, actually.

I'd just move a horizontal plane further south and make it a puzzle to get a bomb drop on those last 6 shields you get a safe spot to stand on to kill the boots grunt with.

Well I have an idea on having every other one of these a swordsgrunt, but that would be the exact opposite of far too easy, so that won't work.

It will take me months to make this level have balanced challenge, won't it?

Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jun 28, 2015 16:00:42 GMT -8

I wouldn't say it'd take months to redesign, but it certainly won't be a days job.

I will look over it again when I edit the level which I'm currently not. But yes I did look over it, but can't say much as I'm not editing the level right now. I want at least a week to get some suggestions first.

Post by Zu on Jun 28, 2015 18:23:05 GMT -8

- The obvious emptiness problem. Not only is there a lot of unused space between the clouds, but also the clouds themselves are largely devoid of eyecandies or even any tiles other than the tile 001.

- The very beginning is rather clunky. The player's grunt starts already carrying a toy, which he might not notice at first (I know I didn't), but on top of that, the secret area contains two additional toys, one of which is a copy of the gokart that the player's grunt already has, further adding to the confusion - not to mention the fact that you don't even know what the toys ARE before picking them up, simply because they're in toyboxes. Turning those toyboxes into regular InGameIcons and having the gokart lie somewhere nearby rather than be already in the grunt's hands would work a lot better.

- It would be nice if the player started the level already being aware that he has two gruntz at his disposal. Them starting the game right next to each other, but still separated would work a lot better.

- What was the point of all those checkpoints at the beginning? You're handing over tools to the player just so he can activate the switches and lose those tools immediately afterwards. If he at least had an opportunity to use those tools for something before losing them, that would be a lot better.

- When giving the gokart to the sword grunt, he can end up riding over the crumbling bridge and screw the player over... you should just replace it with a regular bridge. Or add an arrow pointing downwards, so that the player can walk through it, but the enemy can't (for some reason, enemy gruntz refuse to walk onto arrows).

- The absolute abundance of planes all over the place. I would generally recommend trying to avoid using them, for one reason: it's very easy not to be aware that a plane flies over a tile your grunt is currently standing on. One moment of not paying attention and you suddenly realize you have one grunt less, and you don't even know when that happened. The fact that one plane flies downwards over the arrows is absolutely brutal, to say nothing about the planes over the coins.

- The Red Warp must be put in a much clearer location.

Besides that, the level has some potential, but you'd achieve the best results if you remade it from scratch, rather than attempt to edit the existing one. It's pretty much the only way to get rid of the empty space and "squeeze" everything together.

Post by SwordGrunt on Jun 30, 2015 8:55:52 GMT -8

Interesting. I need to find my Gruntz CD to check this out, and maybe make a map or two again. If only we had it on Steam, we'd never need a CD

Also just from reading Zu's post, remember that too many ObjectDropperz, or any moving hazard for that matter, can slow the game down quite a bit. This was worst with UFOz, those thingz made the game slow-motion if you had 3+ of them on screen

Post by GooRoo on Jun 30, 2015 12:20:18 GMT -8

Interesting. I need to find my Gruntz CD to check this out, and maybe make a map or two again. If only we had it on Steam, we'd never need a CD

Also just from reading Zu's post, remember that too many ObjectDropperz, or any moving hazard for that matter, can slow the game down quite a bit. This was worst with UFOz, those thingz made the game slow-motion if you had 3+ of them on screen

Object droppers do not seem to take up a lot of CPU time, since they only travel in a straight line, and have no animations (but have voices); Spotlights, Thunder Clouds and UFOs have rotations and/or direction changes, and that takes CPU cycles. Jumping Golf Balls and Trap Doors have both animations and voices and can take many CPU cycles in an area crammed full of them (plus being very distracting!), so should be kept to a minimum.

Post by SwordGrunt on Jun 30, 2015 20:27:08 GMT -8

Interesting. I need to find my Gruntz CD to check this out, and maybe make a map or two again. If only we had it on Steam, we'd never need a CD

Also just from reading Zu's post, remember that too many ObjectDropperz, or any moving hazard for that matter, can slow the game down quite a bit. This was worst with UFOz, those thingz made the game slow-motion if you had 3+ of them on screen

Object droppers do not seem to take up a lot of CPU time, since they only travel in a straight line, and have no animations (but have voices); Spotlights, Thunder Clouds and UFOs have rotations and/or direction changes, and that takes CPU cycles. Jumping Golf Balls and Trap Doors have both animations and voices and can take many CPU cycles in an area crammed full of them (plus being very distracting!), so should be kept to a minimum.

I wasn't sure on the Object Dropper but I distinctively remembered UFOz and Cloudz being punishing to the CPU in large amountz, so I just assumed the former had the same issue. Thankz for the correction. But regardless of CPU usage these can be pretty confusing when too many are used in the same area and I wouldn't recommend that on any level.

Besides that, the level has some potential, but you'd achieve the best results if you remade it from scratch, rather than attempt to edit the existing one. It's pretty much the only way to get rid of the empty space and "squeeze" everything together.

But here is the thing, I'm not just crediting the rest of the community because they can give me tips, I'm also doing it because eventually I will make downloading the level public from my website host. And anybody can just send me the edited version and I will update it.

But that won't happen until there is nothing else on my mind I'm now making a big video on YouTube, and want that one done as soon as possible. Yeah that's the only thing I can address, as for everything else, I will use it to make a better level.

In other news I will be making a let's play of the level for a second time this Tuesday so stay tuned for that.

EDIT: No it's been cancelled since I need to make a serious video today and I can't delay the episode review for too long, but I'll try doing that on Thursday instead.

UPDATE: Well a video where I analyze the level fully is on my YouTube channel now the video is called "Let's Play Gruntz - Happy Birthday" and I'd love to know what the people here think of said video.

The video has a lot of swearing, but it's the only thing about it that wouldn't be considered child friendly everything else about it is totally appropriate.

Post by Blaze The Movie Fan on Jul 15, 2015 6:17:39 GMT -8

I hate double posting but I have an important update.

I'm heading to Boston in less than a week, after I get back home, or in early August, I will update the level and also make it possible for everyone else to update it, since I'm making it accessible publicly on my website server.