This isn't a thread saying "we could have had an oasis and now we have a desert," it's saying that we could have easily had a best case scenario, idk why things went wrong, and now we are faced with plan B which is decently worse but can still be pretty good, and now we have to vote on it.

Realistic best case scenario before anyone transferred anywhere:

In this best case scenario, everyone realized that for 11 seasons (or at least in recent seasons), the most competitive hub has been on a coast, which can screw people across the country. This has split up the best Qs and teams since players don't like Qing with high latency into people with low latency. Split hubs vs one hub has meant relatively stiffled competition, Q times and player improvement. Everyone realized that to avoid doing this for a 12th season in a row, the hub should be central, and the hub should be voted on ahead of time on AJ BEFORE ANYONE XFERS, and then we spread the word. Illidan Horde in S9 was the closest thing to a central hub we have seen and people loved it, and even then it was split 50/50 with Tich Alliance. What could have happened for us in S12 was a central server that was like if S9 Tich and Illidan combined on Illidan (or another central server) that season, effectively creating the most fair, most competitive, best Qs NA could get. Not 50% BG9, 50% Rampage, it could have been 100% Rampage (and it will never be 100% west or east for obvious reasons).

What I understand about what actually happened (anyone with details please hook me up):

Out of ignorance, selfishness, carelessness, and/or impatience, team forge transfers to a coast AGAIN without a discussion, without consideration, without a poll to decide ahead of time. 12 straight seasons of not having a 100% hub. Top MMR teams from Tich will now sit in a 8 minute 3v3 queue into random teams while a top MMR team from central or east BGs do the same instead of Qing into each other on a central BG.

How we can deal with the shitty hand that team forge has dealt us:

Realizing that not everyone will go west even though reckful-christ and team forge is there, we now have to agree on where the eastern hub will be. It might as well stay KT since there are still a ton of good players there, and it can be the east's equivilant of Tich. Everyone Qing in NA will have good latency to either LA or NYC. Also, I am just leveling a shadowpriest on Tich. I can probably have the 100% good Qs like I was talking about since I'll have a toon on both hubs. The 100% hub would have been the best case scenario, but plan B here of having Tich and KT is still pretty good... atleast it's not three hubs...................

Stuff that I don't know yet. HELP:

Can anyone in team forge tell me if they understood that for 11 straight seasons we have not had a 100% hub because it has been on a coast? Even if BG9 was big during the MLG days, that's only because MLG and sponsors were interested in WoW, meaning that it does not have to be BG9 now, and that BG9's history means nothing now. Does team forge realize that it is a mistake to not have it voted on on AJ, and have the word spread AHEAD OF TIME before people xfer to their new server? Did they not realize that even if they go west and alot of people will follow, a considerable amount of top players will not follow, which fucks over competitive Qs?

Stuff Snutz has said so far, which is all the reasoning and response to criticism I have to go off (there's been no real rebuttal to anything):

"i'm eastcoast and I ping 80, the server wasn't my decision i didn't care nonetheless I just like everyone to be on one server"

- Tich will be about half of the real PvP community on one server. A central server WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN everyone on one server.

"lol i'm not ashamed of sitting on my nightfall team when I had other alts I could have played on, I was on tichondrius for a long time and when the competition moved I followed. I ended up on KT and becoming the rank 1 team did I not? If i didn't care I wouldnt have came at all, Illidan horde was my first pick until I realized how bad queue times would have been (reason I transfered off Blackrock to begin with)"

- I actually don't know what Snutz is saying here. He gets criticized for team sitting which stifles competition and Qs and is basically nailed because it's true, and tries to justify team sitting/whatever he did. Then he says something about Illidan like he wanted the hub to be central, then doesn't say anything about why there was the leap to Tich, which skipped over the picking any of another central server that wasn't overpop. That leap is really annoying since I don't know why it happened.

"the jump is not 30-200, its 30-100"

- He is saying that it won't be as bad as some people may make it seem. Personally, I am east coast and my ping to Tich is fine. That's not the point for me though. The point is that this was all handled poorly. Maybe some people that won't go to Tich are actually saying that the difference in ping is too much for them to play with, idk. It's annoying that people say "the latency won't be that bad for you even if you're east, stop bitching and xfer here." It doesn't matter, the fact is that people won't xfer there for that reason. You should have realized that ahead of time and gone central, the mistake is already made, you've split things in half again.

"Tichondrius Horde is still the server and will be the server where the competition will take place, like it's always been."

- I don't like this at all. This is so dismissive and just ignores all the discussion, questions, and rebuttals to points made about having a west coast hub.

If I am wrong about something here or I am looking for answers and you have them, then please tell me in a reasonable and constructive way.

If I was right about anything, then don't change the subject or justify anything. Acknowledge it, or admit that you were wrong or that you fucked up, and move on if that's the case. I am wrong all the time. Like Jah said, I am just trying to play WoW, and 100% Qs is the best way to do that.

So in the coming days, the poll in this thread will zero in where the 2nd hub should be (in a broader area if it ends up being central, and it looks like it'll be central horde atm). I think that a few days before arena starts, I will make a 2nd poll. If this current poll ends up resulting in Central Horde being the most popular, the new poll's choices will be decided based on these criteria:

- Central

- Popular (not overpopulated, to avoid log in Q)

- PvP (not RP, no one wants to get banned for RP rules)

- Close horde/ally ratios for the option of competitive world PvP (a current skew toward ally would help, since this server's horde is about to get bolstered)

I will use http://wow.realmpop.com/us.html and http://www.wowwiki.c...t_by_datacenter for this. Right now, the four best choices could be Stormreaver, Bleeding Hollow, Mannoroth, and Magtheridon. I need a discussion as to if those 4 choices for the upcoming poll would be OK with people since it looks like people want Central Horde. I based them on the criteria above, say if you don't like those criteria. If you haven't voted in the current one yet and you're going to not play on Tich, do it.

After all that, then we will have to decide on a guild situation, too.

Ok the reason west coast people wont consider going to central and some east wont consider going central is because no matter what happens a player on a far coast (like California) gets over a 100 ping due to long distance from the datacenter or a bad connection - whatever. Most of the time melee do not like playing on over 100 ping (I wouldn't).

West coast players think central = Chicago data center and they think they will lag according to some people.

Illidan is hosted in Chicago and highly benefits east coast in terms of ping.

Or not give a fuck where the server is, go to whatever server you want to play ona nd your friends are there and just have fun and stop crying. I have a feeling you're just upset that YOU! didn't get to choose the server everyone goes to, as if you feel you deserved to have the right in choosing where everyone went and you feel betrayed that no one gave a shit about your thoughts. Grow up, play where you want to play and have fun. Stop crying nerd.

I understand your issue with them not letting the community as a whole decide on the server or battlegroup of chosing, however it does seem to be a trend to make Bg-9 the main bg.

Personally I find that west coast pleases the majority of players overall as a whole and gives the best MS on average for eastern/central/west and australians to play all under 1 bg this gives ques the ability to go around the clock.

(I play on tich, so I do show bias but I also am from east coast) - I find that the only thing that MS hurts me with is Meld timing, lag in elwynn and being able to kick mass dispels (unless pre-kicked), it does affect gameplay slightly, but overall it is what is required if you are to want a hub which is deemed "central" and actually is central to the pvp playerbase (this includes Australians and the like).

Also the majority of the oceanic servers are on bg9, and the bg seemed to be the most active (imo)when it came to actual ladder movement as of last season.

-Imo leave KT as alliance and go to Emerald Dream/Illy for Horde if MS is a big issue, if you are to create a Plan-B ofc but in reality why do that to yourself and the community as a whole.

Or not give a fuck where the server is, go to whatever server you want to play ona nd your friends are there and just have fun and stop crying. I have a feeling you're just upset that YOU! didn't get to choose the server everyone goes to, as if you feel you deserved to have the right in choosing where everyone went and you feel betrayed that no one gave a shit about your thoughts. Grow up, play where you want to play and have fun. Stop crying nerd.

Wait, what? Not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of your post, but West obviously didn't "win". That poll wasn't very good because it only included 1 West server and a bunch of Central ones. If you add up all of the Central votes they come out on top.

The original poll should have just been a choice between the two datacenters, with another poll following it up based on the results. Probably wouldn't actually change anything though.