Please show an example where Serena mentally crumbled in 2004? I agree with you that she wasn't at her toughest in that final, but you can't say she crumbled mentally to the same degree she did in 2011. 2004 was more of a case of having a bad day at the office than anything else.

She didn't crumble mentally at all..just because she yelled come on too early doesn't mean she wasn't there mentally. She still managed to break Stosur and get ahead..but just like in '04, her opponent was too good.

As I have said, Sharapova lost the vast majority of those finals, besides against Radwanska where she played poorly, because she was beaten by better players. She lost a lot of those finals because she wasn't good enough to win, not to do with mental toughness.

So she either loses because the other players are better, the one time she played 'poorly'...and otherwise ALL her wins are because of mental strength. Who's this guy?!

Never read this much non-sense. What kind of logic is this? Miami final was a prime instance to show that Maria ain't no mental giant. Everytime it became 5-6 and Maria had to serve to stay in the set/match, she crumbled..but then you say, she played poorly?!

While I think there is the "Serena is best at everything" mentality displayed by a select group of Serena fans, I also think it's more to do with the fact they are completely unwilling to give Maria any credit in any department. No one is saying Sharapova is a better player than Serena, yet some of the comments are quite startling in terms of how anti-Sharapova they are. They would have you thinking that she is a complete non-entity, not the #2 player in the world.

Maria is MANY things, but she ISN'T mentally stronger than Serena. No chance in hell.

It didn't help her in '04 either..it is what it is. Serena always has this history: she reaches a big final in her comeback but is unable to win them..she needs a year to get that mental side back.

That happened in '04, that happened in '10. If you're gonna pin '10 u.s. open to lack of mental toughness, then the same can be said about '04. But that of course doesn't fit in your theory.. No, in '04 got outplayed and in '10 Serena crumbled, huh?! Please...

Please show an example where Serena mentally crumbled in 2004? I agree with you that she wasn't at her toughest in that final, but you can't say she crumbled mentally to the same degree she did in 2011. 2004 was more of a case of having a bad day at the office than anything else.

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So what? The only thing she could've done to convince you that she was at her mentally toughest was rallying and winning the match. So why didn't you hope for this outcome for '04 Wimbledon?! There was even MORE all over the place...

This comment doesn't make any sense and you are just arguing for the sake of it, I've explained multiple times why I believe what I believe but you just repeat yourself over and over again.

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It's just foolish..that you're arguing that a player who went 3-6 in finals this year, didn't even win a single set in those finals she lost..is the toughest player mentally of the whole tour.

As I have said, Sharapova lost the vast majority of those finals, besides against Radwanska where she played poorly, because she was beaten by better players. She lost a lot of those finals because she wasn't good enough to win, not to do with mental toughness.

Martha can make as much noise as she wants against the lesser ranked players, but when it comes to playing the top players at the biggest stages this year, she has flopped more often than not. If it wasn't for Sara errani and brainless na, she would only have her stuttgart title to show for the season as even Radwanska made her bend over at one of the world's biggest arenas.

Serena on the other hand can struggle and barely scrape by against the lower ranked players but raises her game precisely when she needs to and has the confidence and mental strength to know and execute this against the best players at the biggest stages. That's mental strength.

As I said, if you are going to bring up a sparse few losses that she suffered not even few months into her comeback from a life threatening condition, then what about the horde of losses that Sharapova suffered for two and a half years (and still is, but now at the hands of top players) after her 5 minute surgery.

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You can't just dismiss Maria's shoulder surgery, it was a career threatening injury. I wouldn't dream of saying Serena's foot injury was a "minor problem" or her having blood clots as "a small illness". It's quite tasteless really.

It will be interesting to see how much longer people can keep going saying the same thing over and over again. I propose that we all just admit that Serena has the best serve, the best return, the best forehand, the best backhand, the best movement, the best defence, the best volleys, the best drop shots, the best overheads, that she's mentally the strongest, that Maria is a mental midget and that Serena had a great season while Maria had a lousy one. Some of that isn't so far from the truth anyway, and as for the rest of it - nobody is going to change anybody else's mind at this point (or even just seriously consider what the other side has to say).

While I think there is the "Serena is best at everything" mentality displayed by a select group of Serena fans, I also think it's more to do with the fact they are completely unwilling to give Maria any credit in any department. No one is saying Sharapova is a better player than Serena, yet some of the comments are quite startling in terms of how anti-Sharapova they are. They would have you thinking that she is a complete non-entity, not the #2 player in the world.

What part of "I think that both are very tough mentally" didn't you understand? But I think we've come to the point where we're just arguing to be arguing, so let me put an end to this (at least to my part in it) by saying that you are right and I am wrong. If not we'll continue to walk around in circles forever.

In your reply you said that at firt, then you added that Serena's success didn't have much to do with mental strength, but that she was the better player. Like the one excludes the other.

But you're right, let's end it..a topic that we'll never see eye to eye on.

Okay, I understand your point..then we can stop with the myth that Nadal is mentally tough, that Graf was mentally tough, etc..as well too, no?!

If you're just better than your competition, then why stress out the mental aspect?! And does that mean that Sharapova is some scrub or something?!

What part of "I think that both are very tough mentally" didn't you understand? But I think we've come to the point where we're just arguing to be arguing, so let me put an end to this (at least to my part in it) by saying that you are right and I am wrong. If not we'll continue to walk around in circles forever.

And no, she could have lost to Maria and Vika in the beginning of the season and I would have said different things.
There is no shame losing to these two especially since they've both dominated the early season (Vika the HC and Maria the clay court) but here Serena lost to far lesser opponents.
She wasn't even good to compete against them.

What are you talking about? so Serena wasn't in her process of coming back? You forgot the pulmonary embolism so quickly?!

Serena injured her ankle in Australia.so I'm convinced that contributed to her loss there.
Loss at RG, stuff happens.

Anyways your discussion is ridiculous. Maria after the 'shoulder'..how many years did we get to hear about that? Now Serena had a rusty half year after her ankle injury and you wanna act like she was at full strength in those losses?!

Bitter? I always considered myself if anything a rather modest poster actually. I thought it was fairly obvious that mine was a tongue in cheek post though...

But ok, about the mental strenght thing that seems to fascinate everyone. I think that both are very tough mentally. But in my opinion Serena's superiority has little to do with her being mentally stronger than Sharapova. She's just the better player. In order to be able to really compare their mental strenght both would have to be equal as players and than we could see who would come out on top because of what's between their ears. Sure going h2h Serena's mentally stronger because she has such a lobsided record against Maria in her favor. She must almost literally feel at this point that she just can't lose against her. But Maria is now in the position that Serena would be in if there ever would be someone who would just be better than Serena. Would we be saying that Serena is mentally weaker than that someone if Serena would lose four, five, six or more times in a row to her, or would we be saying that she's just the better player?

Okay, I understand your point..then we can stop with the myth that Nadal is mentally tough, that Graf was mentally tough, etc..as well too, no?!

If you're just better than your competition, then why stress out the mental aspect?! And does that mean that Sharapova is some scrub or something?!

The circumstances were the same...both through the process of comebacks. Maria got her three years to get it out of her system, so why you jump on Serena for what was basically a bad half year?

We'll see how it goes, next year..but so you putting serena in a no-win scenario. If she starts losing to Azarenka and sharapova, then she can't beat the top players..if she loses to scrubs, then it's she isn't consistent.

No the circumstances weren't the very same you must be kidding me.

And no, she could have lost to Maria and Vika in the beginning of the season and I would have said different things.
There is no shame losing to these two especially since they've both dominated the early season (Vika the HC and Maria the clay court) but here Serena lost to far lesser opponents.
She wasn't even good to compete against them.

Who even talked about mental weakling it's not because some people put Sharapova above her that suddenly Serena must be considered weak or sth.

And no we're not going down this route since it happened 3 years aback.
At this point I think it's just fair to admit that Serena is gonna have more WTF losses than Maria.
Take a look by yourself, her 4 losses this year happened to be against slumping players except maybe Kerber.

But she is still undefeated against the very best, this is weird this is why I don't really know where to rank Serena's mental strength she is a giant sometimes( since Wimbledon she really is) and other times she is just very low.

The circumstances were the same...both through the process of comebacks. Maria got her three years to get it out of her system, so why you jump on Serena for what was basically a bad half year?

We'll see how it goes, next year..but so you putting serena in a no-win scenario. If she starts losing to Azarenka and sharapova, then she can't beat the top players..if she loses to scrubs, then it's she isn't consistent.

Bitterness doesn't suit you, my friend. So now it's the Serena-fans who are the delusional ones?!
Of your list..we claim best serve and mental strength. The rest Serena's at least top 5 at some, not top 5 at the others. But please stop with tired song that Serena-fans claim that she's the best at everything.

Only makes you come over as bitter...and to my knowledge Caroline Wozniacki doesn't have any bitter fans.

Bitter? I always considered myself if anything a rather modest poster actually. I thought it was fairly obvious that mine was a tongue in cheek post though...

But ok, about the mental strenght thing that seems to fascinate everyone. I think that both are very tough mentally. But in my opinion Serena's superiority has little to do with her being mentally stronger than Sharapova. She's just the better player. In order to be able to really compare their mental strenght both would have to be equal as players and than we could see who would come out on top because of what's between their ears. Sure going h2h Serena's mentally stronger because she has such a lobsided record against Maria in her favor. She must almost literally feel at this point that she just can't lose against her. But Maria is now in the position that Serena would be in if there ever would be someone who would just be better than Serena. Would we be saying that Serena is mentally weaker than that someone if Serena would lose four, five, six or more times in a row to her, or would we be saying that she's just the better player?

So, two early losses..clearly related to her ankle injury and the other: her first loss in 1r ever is all it takes for declaring Serena a mental weakling?

Okay..now we don't wanna go down the route with Masha who was going like years without even advancing past 4r at any of the non-RG majors, do we?!

Who even talked about mental weakling it's not because some people put Sharapova above her that suddenly Serena must be considered weak or sth.

And no we're not going down this route since it happened 3 years aback.
At this point I think it's just fair to admit that Serena is gonna have more WTF losses than Maria.
Take a look by yourself, her 4 losses this year happened to be against slumping players except maybe Kerber.

But she is still undefeated against the very best, this is weird this is why I don't really know where to rank Serena's mental strength she is a giant sometimes( since Wimbledon she really is) and other times she is just very low.

Fact is that this year Serena lost in a first round of a major for the very first time in her career, she had some freaky losses beginning to this one and the one over Makarova.
I don't necessarily agree to say that Maria is tougher than her mentally but I can understand other people POV.

I also remember a commentator saying that week in week out Maria was the toughest competitor out there.

I am not relying in ifs, should've , could've and would've but on what has already happened and facts

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Yes you are.

Fact is that this year Serena lost in a first round of a major for the very first time in her career, she had some freaky losses beginning to this one and the one over Makarova.
I don't necessarily agree to say that Maria is tougher than her mentally but I can understand other people POV.

I also remember a commentator saying that week in week out Maria was the toughest competitor out there.

It will be interesting to see how much longer people can keep going saying the same thing over and over again. I propose that we all just admit that Serena has the best serve, the best return, the best forehand, the best backhand, the best movement, the best defence, the best volleys, the best drop shots, the best overheads, that she's mentally the strongest, that Maria is a mental midget and that Serena had a great season while Maria had a lousy one. Some of that isn't so far from the truth anyway, and as for the rest of it - nobody is going to change anybody else's mind at this point (or even just seriously consider what the other side has to say).

Bitterness doesn't suit you, my friend. So now it's the Serena-fans who are the delusional ones?!
Of your list..we claim best serve and mental strength. The rest Serena's at least top 5 at some, not top 5 at the others. But please stop with tired song that Serena-fans claim that she's the best at everything.

Only makes you come over as bitter...and to my knowledge Caroline Wozniacki doesn't have any bitter fans.

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