Traumatized Clementine.....

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Clem is not that same innocent little 8 year old girl we all love(d) and felt like keeping her safe and by our side at all times. Sh… moree has been through so much shit and has grown into someone who is capable of surviving the zombie apocalypse. While I do like the old Clem more than the new Clem, it only makes that with everything she has seen, she has turned more bitter, a lot more mature, and can be sassy at times. Remember what Chuck said, if you treat her like a little girl, then she'll die a little girl.

in the apocalypse she has had to grow up early to deal with the problems and survive - that's the cold hard truth. If she stayed innocent and over-protected like Sarah and maybe Duck, she would have died early on or be forced to depend heavily on others. She did that with Lee at times - he saved her a bunch and taught her some survival lessons - but when he and Omid died Christa wasn't able to care for her in the way that they would have. Also, her dejection may be because she has had to lose her sweet optimism because she now knows there is little hope of any end to the apocalypse. I think it's more of her depression and coming to terms with the fact that there is so little hope, which is such a change for her when she was full of it during the first season. I think, when things get better and she starts building real friendships with others we will see her happier side that all know and love

I did. And I was happy to sacrifice Lee for Clem Clem. Clem originally killed my Lee, but then I learned that she makes a choice on her own, taking inspiration from your choices if you let time run out. So I went back and she ran. I would've written her in the opposite way that she was written. Depressed and scared before the time skip. Normal afterwards.

On a bit of a tangent here but did you enjoy the first season of the game?
I assume you found Clementine in Season 1 quite endearing, how was the ending of the game for you and how would you have written a 'grown up', 'seasoned' Clementine?

I think you can compare the psychological effects of being in a zombie apocalypse as being in a war.
Ofcourse Clementine is sufferi… moreng from something, as an result of everything that has happend.
Posttraumatic stress disorder,
Dissociation,
Depression..
etc etc

This. The choices you get given are indications of the options the character is considering. For example Wyatt will always at least sound reluctant about saving the cop no matter what dialogue we chose, and will only go out there if he loses the game of chance. Wyatt also abandons the cop once Eddie drives away: Eddie stays end gets caught by Nate. This gives you a clue as to the kind of people Wyatt and Eddie are. If Eddie leaves Wyatt behind, he goes back into the fog to look for Wyatt and gets caught by Nate anyway (talking about the ending slides here).

Also, Lee usually always has a darker aggressive option, a thoughtful/kind option, and a straightforward option: these are aspects of his personality, and we merely determine which of these surface with the most dominance.

By the same token, Clementine almost always has a negative/sad/pleading/downer option, a kind/heroic option, and a pragmatic/manipulative/emotional stonewall option. Because Clementine doesn't like to manipulate people she likes, usually the pragmatic options dwindle when she is talking to someone like Christa or Omid, or later, Luke, but resurfaces later when dealing with people like Rebecca or Nick, or if she is desperate, weaker characters (psychologically) like Alvin and Sarah.

I prefer the Telltale method of storytelling where we guide a character that is developed by the story, but we aren't the character themselves, so we can't completely determine how they act or how they are changed by the world and people around them.

This. The choices you get given are indications of the options the character is considering. For example Wyatt will always at least … moresound reluctant about saving the cop no matter what dialogue we chose, and will only go out there if he loses the game of chance. Wyatt also abandons the cop once Eddie drives away: Eddie stays end gets caught by Nate. This gives you a clue as to the kind of people Wyatt and Eddie are. If Eddie leaves Wyatt behind, he goes back into the fog to look for Wyatt and gets caught by Nate anyway (talking about the ending slides here).
Also, Lee usually always has a darker aggressive option, a thoughtful/kind option, and a straightforward option: these are aspects of his personality, and we merely determine which of these surface with the most dominance.
By the same token, Clementine almost always has a negative/sad/pleading/downer option, a kind/heroic option, and a pragmatic/manipulative/emotional… [view original content]

I think there's a difference between being traumatized and adapting to your surroundings. In my opinion, it's attitude, confidence, … moreand self-control that make that difference.
Based on how my Clem acted in S2E1, I'd say she's not traumatized in the least. She remembers her tragedies without being owned by them, reacts to new situations in a practical way, and acknowledges how messed-up the world is without losing herself to despair. If anything, she's unrealistically tough and centered for an 11-year-old after all she's been though.
I'd say Becca from 400 Days is legitimately experiencing trauma. From the way she talks it's clear that she's lost hope and been dulled to the remaining good things TWD's world has to offer. Clem doesn't seem to dwell on the good or the bad, instead focusing on her survival - though she can still trust and cooperates with others while showing reasonable sadness over what she's lost while sho… [view original content]

I'm pretty sure (this nightmare is fueled by season 4's slide) that Sarah will go irretrievably Catatonic when Carlos dies, and Clementine will have to kill a now psychopathically amoral (as in like Winston amoral for example, EG just doesn't care about killing people for their stuff) Becca in self defense. Like Duck, Katjaa, and Doug/Carley, these will be the massive mid point deaths that rock your psyche and set you up for the finale. Basically the way these kids react, and how they are destroyed mentally by the apocalypse acts as an excellent foil for Clementine. I think we will get chances to try to prepare Sarah beforehand throughout season 2, but it will always be interrupted by Carlos (who will be naturally pissed at you), so she ends up with not enough mental fortitude to handle his death. We will get chances to try to save Becca, or play along for Clems own safety when we are in her now morally fucked up little group, but naturally it will be just not enough, and Clem shall feel she has failed both of them, and witnessed two more kids (Duck...) destroyed by the apocalypse.

I'm not saying Becca isn't justified in behaving the way she does. The zombie apocalypse is obviously rough, and I'd expect more kid… mores who are dealing with it to be traumatized than not.
Everybody deals with stress and tragedy in that environment. Clem was shut out of group politics more than once in E1, suffered loss, and witnessed her fair share of horrible things. What makes the difference is remaining strong and not letting it change you for the worse, like turning to nihilism like Becca seems to be doing.
I don't rule out the possibility that Becca will be over her trauma if/when we see her again. Maybe after the events of 400 days she'll find inner strength like Clementine. But for now, from what I've seen of her, she's in a bad place. She's trying to harden herself against everything she deals with, but in a destructive way.

That's due to a Lack of opportunity. We get that voice back a bit when Clem talks to Sam. That voice only comes out when she has something to be happy about.

Have you considered the possibility that most of the time she IS a desensitised survivor? Her life doesn't give her many opportunities to let her guard down and act like a kid again. And when she does...well...

Telltale did say they plan on giving Clementine (and Melissa) more chances to explore her childhood, especially in episode 2. Also, there are some awesome parts in episode 1 of season 2 where Clem can call people out on swearing, can't wait for more of those. (Clem: "It would be bad if your wife knew we talked.." Alvin "Motherfuc-" Clementine interrupting, half menacing voice half innocent voice "Swear".

Post Omid, Christa became cold, an emotional stonewall, and pragmatic. Clementine survived with Christa (who felt that Clementine was responsible for Omid's death) for 16 months, and witnessed A baby die! because of Omid's absence (which Clem feels responsible for, and can tell how Christa feels even if Christa tries to hide it). Most of all Clementine had to deal with the guilt over her being indirectly responsible for Ben, Kenny, and Omid's deaths because she went with the stranger. She had to deal with this guilt and grief on her own because Christa was stonewalling her.

It's hardly surprising that after you spend a year and a half with a cold and hardened Christa that you become pretty cold and hardened yourself.

I did. And I was happy to sacrifice Lee for Clem Clem. Clem originally killed my Lee, but then I learned that she makes a choice on … moreher own, taking inspiration from your choices if you let time run out. So I went back and she ran. I would've written her in the opposite way that she was written. Depressed and scared before the time skip. Normal afterwards.

Keyword, "almost." Protagonists in the realm of realistic fiction thrive off of the existence in real life of heroic willpower (EG pain resistance), luck, and performing acts of heroism or desperation that are "almost" too bad ass to be possible.

Also, Christa made sure Clementine was pretty prepared after Omid's death. Based on Clem's personality after the 16 month skip it sounds like Christa and the apocalyptic world put Clementine through a hellish training regime.

"Omid was gonna teach-"(implying history teaching) "I know what Omid said. You need to learn how to keep this fire going, it's getting colder, and if you don't know how to do this...well..." Later, pre-suturing: "...Just like Christa taught me...".

“I’ve heard it said that the Holocaust has no survivors, that even those who managed to remain technically alive were so irreparably damaged, that their spirit, their soul, the person that they were supposed to be, was gone forever. I’d like to think that’s not true. But if it is, then no one on Earth survived this war.” - taken from the World War Z book.

I think you can compare the psychological effects of being in a zombie apocalypse as being in a war.
Ofcourse Clementine is sufferi… moreng from something, as an result of everything that has happend.
Posttraumatic stress disorder,
Dissociation,
Depression..
etc etc

She has a lot of pain and guilt inside her and no one to talk to about it.

"Sometimes people end up dying because of me..."

Her time spent with Christa wasn't exactly pleasurable. When it cuts to 16 months later we see Clementine having to beg Christa to break the ice between them for a moment, and when Christa does finally talk, she's passive-agressive and pessimistic towards Clem. That gives you an idea of how their relashionship went during their time together.

I'm sure Christa's cold attitude and overall cynicism brushed off on her a bit. She was raised by her for nearly two years, after all.

It's just that Telltale rushed that time skip so much that people end up forgetting about Christa's influence on her.

She is still the same person you know.... anyways, i miss her childlike innocence, but I'm glad she's more capable of surviving now. Most importantly, just because she is not an innocent character doesn't mean she is a bad person. You can still choose to make a lot of similar decisions as Clem would make in season 1.

If Clem wasn't the PC, the "desensitized survivor" approach would be understandable. But since I'm now officially in control of Clem, shouldn't I have the option of playing her as something besides a desensitized survivor? In a story where almost EVERYONE is a paranoid savage, I'd like to at least have the choice of portraying the protagonist as the sole likeable character.

That's due to a Lack of opportunity. We get that voice back a bit when Clem talks to Sam. That voice only comes out when she has som… moreething to be happy about.
Have you considered the possibility that most of the time she IS a desensitised survivor? Her life doesn't give her many opportunities to let her guard down and act like a kid again. And when she does...well...
Telltale did say they plan on giving Clementine (and Melissa) more chances to explore her childhood, especially in episode 2. Also, there are some awesome parts in episode 1 of season 2 where Clem can call people out on swearing, can't wait for more of those. (Clem: "It would be bad if your wife knew we talked.." Alvin "Motherfuc-" Clementine interrupting, half menacing voice half innocent voice "Swear".

She is clearly dejected/depressed if you just take a moment to observe her expression and body language. You don't even have to hea… morer her voice to realize it. I would imagine that Lee's death alone caused a great change in her personality. Omid's death and Christa's probable bitterness toward her following his death would have sent her even further into depression. Her potential manipulation and stoicism is simply a bi-product of the situation she is in. She isn't exactly becoming a sociopath, but there does seem to be some disassociation.
I think that Telltale is doing a good job with her, but it would be nice to see her form bonds that would help lessen her depression. Of course, this would only make it worse when these people are inevitably killed off.

But don't you think that she'd be the slightest bit depressed after Lee's death? Even so, she could still show some fucking emotion. She only shows an emotion other than villainous hatred once after Omid's death. When accepting Nick's apology.

Post Omid, Christa became cold, an emotional stonewall, and pragmatic. Clementine survived with Christa (who felt that Clementine wa… mores responsible for Omid's death) for 16 months, and witnessed A baby die! because of Omid's absence (which Clem feels responsible for, and can tell how Christa feels even if Christa tries to hide it). Most of all Clementine had to deal with the guilt over her being indirectly responsible for Ben, Kenny, and Omid's deaths because she went with the stranger. She had to deal with this guilt and grief on her own because Christa was stonewalling her.
It's hardly surprising that after you spend a year and a half with a cold and hardened Christa that you become pretty cold and hardened yourself.

Traumatized Clementine is far better than naive stupid girl like Sarah in MY opinion. I think it is kind of good thing that she saw meatlocker happening and saw her dead parents and other nasty stuff. I know it is super bad for her mental healt but i think she should see that there is not much hope in this world, only tiny bits and pieces here and there. My Lee helped Kenny in the meatlocker and i killed Danny mostly cause she needs to see these things to survive, fuck mercy and screw sympathetic to bad guys. Stuff will happen it is not fair but its the way it is.

She is depressed their is no doubt about that. Even in the opening conversations in season 2 you can see that Lee's death is still on her mind. It didn't help when the accident in the bathroom happened and how cold and bitter Christa most likely acted towards her afterwards. But Clementine is a smart girl. That means even though she saw all the bad things, she learned from them. They definely affected her, but she still understood them. She learned what it took to survive by observation and of course Lee. In my play through, in the last conversation she said "It is like Larry, isn't it? I know you did it to protect me." She knows what it takes to live but it is clearly a very big trouble on her. I think that she understands that she isn't strong or big and mean, so she finds other ways to get what she needs to survive. Even though you can tell that she doesn't like blackmailing someone because their is usually a option that Clem back out.