LFR loot suggestion (detailed)

I have a suggestion. When I was working at BioWare one of the systems we tried throughout several months of testing with SWTOR was an "overall" loot distribution system. A lot of the issues we faced were players not having incentive to stay once they got their loot. It was actually faster progression to kill the first boss, get your token from the boss kill and turn the token in to a vendor in the home city that you could exchange that token for a new upgrade, or to upgrade a already existing loot. This would prevent countless wipes to bosses most PUG groups would never face, and to address a lot of the mechanical issues we faced with our technically challenging boss encounters that still had a lot of issues when the game actually went gold.

One of the systems I suggested at the time made through several phases of development but due to the complexity of our servers and the limitations we faced "at the time" could not implement my suggestion.

What it is, is this: Once a group would defeat a boss, each player would be faced with a 3 option selection. Kind of like “find the ball under one of the three cups”. They would chose the selection and not know the result until the end of the encounter after all bosses are defeated. Once the player would defeat the final boss, the internal tracking system would go through and randomly choose which gear they would receive (my ratio was 3:1) (since the boss' loot table in WoW are much more diverse, that ration might have to decrease the players odds. Especially when taking bonus rolls into consideration.)

How I would suggest this system for World of Warcraft. (Using Terrace of the endless spring as an example) There are 5 bosses that which I estimate a possible 2-3 items per boss each class spec could utilize. So you double the deficit potential to equal a best out of 6 chance, per boss kill, to receive 1 particular item. If a player would use a Coin for bonus roll, these odds would reduce by 1 to a best out of 5 chance, rather than using no coin remaining at best out of 6. The game would track through an internal tracking database per 1/25 slot (25 internal tracking’s each assigned to the random players as they enter. This tracker would follow each boss kill for each player with those odds per boss *6:1, *5:1 if coin is used for a boss)
Then after defeating the final boss, the tracker would review each boss kill and determine if the player would receive an item out of those odds. The player would either receive a cool game themed, "Sorry no loot for you!" message, or "Congratulations, loot for you!" message. The player would then receive the item as they found the result, and then the tracker would move on to the results of the next boss of the encounter and rinse and repeat until all bosses were covered. This was extremely successful with our testers! They loved it since gear would seem to come “all at once” even if there were only 2 items. The fact that you would receive them back to back would seem almost overwhelming compared to the current system.
The issue with this would be a few things: Class roles during each kill. Each player would be able to appropriate a “favorite” spec. (This part was kind of complex in programming) the player would have the ability to assign a preference per boss, before they engaged that boss. Example:
Protectors of the Endless Spring (I already have best possible Retribution gear, so I would prefer to have a better chance at receiving a protection piece for my off spec) So I would change the weighting (this is why there is a best out of three option I mentioned previously, 3 specs)
Prior before pulling protectors I could assign(Protection:3 Retribution: 0 Holy: 0) or (Protection:1 Retribution: 2 Holy: 0) I would have 3 points I could invest into a spec and that would configure the preference/ chance of item I would want for a spec.
Let’s say on Sha, I really want a cool Ret weapon though.. I could put all points into Ret, and have a 3/6 chance to receive that item.. 4/6 chance if I use a coin.
Or if I don’t care, I could simply go 1 point in each spec. This would blanket a option for me, and give the same odds at receive a specific spec upgrade, or have a 1/6 x3 odd of receiving an item for any spec.

The benfit was that players really felt in control of items they would receive, rather than praying they get an item, and praying that the item they do get is specific to their spec. Or be confused if they should have to switch specs per boss to get the item, “messing up the raid composition” or que as a healer for faster que, or whatever crazy things people try in LFR now a days.
This allows people to stay in the spec they “main”, while having a good chance to receive an item they may want for a different spec.
Typically, I find it easier to que as a tank on a fresh toon and since I’m the lowest probability I have a stronger chance at getting tank items since there are maybe 2 tanks out of 25 people. So assuming I now have an awesome prot set, maybe I want to be really effective playing my main spec to ensure better overall raid performance and success. Yet, I also want to really start building a set for a dps or healing spec. Now I can do both by assigning my 3 points to whatever spec I want to “prefer” the loot for. If I want dps, I would put all 3 point into DPS, preventing any gear to be tanking gear or holy gear.
Referencing what I mentioned above, at the end of the encounter I would discover the results of my selections per boss and find out if I receive any loot from those bosses at the conclusion of the encounter. So I could receive all dps items, or specific bosses there were a different item I invested my preference points into.
I was very pleased with the details my loot system provided, but as I mentioned in the beginning of this novel of a suggestion, due to complexities and limitations I can not disclose, we couldn’t make this system implemented into the game. Perhaps World of Warcraft may be able to, I am not sure.

But as I said before, this system I developed was EXTREMELY anticipated. And favored, we had testers that have played every MMO to date, and by far this was one of the features we had not announced that was inclusive to our team that everyone was waiting to see go live. If I can be of any assistance explaining further details I would love too. Also, there are no copyright issues with this system either, since it was scrapped.

Also, to address another possible issue, if a player absolutely had to leave due to IRL issues, the tracker would cut off that particular player and when the player leaves determine if the player received loot on the bosses they assisted in defeating, then mail the item to them. Although the player would receive the loot and technically could just leave, a huge majority of our testing proved players will still stay to see the loot they receive all at once since it was more personal and rewarding than waiting for mail. So this prevented people from just leaving prematurely and allowed them to play their best spec raising the overall chance of success of the raid per boss while also allowing them to receive off spec items that they would prefer to receive, per boss.

I groaned a little inside at first seeing the claim of being a Bioware developer, but unlike almost every single claim made on this board by somebody purporting to work in the business, this is actually a very fascinating post. It really makes me consider that WoW's loot system is way behind a lot of possible interesting alternatives that have different incentive/reward structures.

It's late but...
1) You seem to think currently tanks have better chance of getting loot in lfr?
2) You are not aware of the "select spec you want loot for" option coming in 5.3 already?
3) Terrace of Endless Spring has a 5th hidden boss?

Current loot system is fine. people need to stop expecting to get loot every time they run a raid and expecting to be geared up after a week. If you get to pick and choose your loot and have it all thrown at you in the first week what is even the point of continuing to play? so you can afk in town with your shiney new pixels?

They are adding the option to choose what spec you get loot for on a boss by boss basis as it is so you don't even have to run a specific spec or change spec to get the loot options you want.

Originally Posted by underdogba

I groaned a little inside at first seeing the claim of being a Bioware developer.

Same here. Did a bit of SWTOR raiding on the basic difficulty and thought the loot system was terrible. Given biowares track record I'd be pretty hesitant to take any advice they offered. Personally I think it is far to easy to get loot from raids now, the whole experience has been cheapened.

It's late but...
1) You seem to think currently tanks have better chance of getting loot in lfr?
2) You are not aware of the "select spec you want loot for" option coming in 5.3 already?
3) Terrace of Endless Spring has a 5th hidden boss?

In 5 man dungeons when gearing up a (as I said" FRESH tank, yes you get gear typically faster with near instant ques so it is typically faster to begin a FRESH toon to get geared up and ready for LFR ques.

You are correct, there isn't a 5th boss in LFR. I was considering the unique Protectors elite/ heroic elite consideration available in other countries.
I am also aware of the spec preference, but it is an entirely different loot model when considered programming and actual player implementation and usage.
When ever there is something like that, typically most dev studios try to make those changes subtle, unless completely over hauled VIA expansion. Not the case here, it would be like using a nuclear device to swat a fly. Changes you make during games when they are gold (released for revenue) typically shy away from major changes, and stick with changes that influence the game down the road.

---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 02:45 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Splatter

Current loot system is fine. people need to stop expecting to get loot every time they run a raid and expecting to be geared up after a week. If you get to pick and choose your loot and have it all thrown at you in the first week what is even the point of continuing to play? so you can afk in town with your shiney new pixels?

They are adding the option to choose what spec you get loot for on a boss by boss basis as it is so you don't even have to run a specific spec or change spec to get the loot options you want.

Same here. Did a bit of SWTOR raiding on the basic difficulty and thought the loot system was terrible. Given biowares track record I'd be pretty hesitant to take any advice they offered. Personally I think it is far to easy to get loot from raids now, the whole experience has been cheapened.

When the game was released there was a lot of issues with our Q&A and deadlines that HAD to be met, the community obviously not aware of these things. Unfortunately, our first impression was affected dramtically pending the changes we were already developing for a patch update. The game is actually pretty clean and consice now, but as I said, we lost our first impression which is everythig when working on a game.

Take for instance Mortal Kombat 2011. When I worked at Nether Realm studios, we needed to find a new cutting edge feature no other fighting game had so we could be apart of the new cutting edge, but also have a unique twist specific to Mortal Kombat 2011. This change was the "super", or "special meter" to which players had to option to utilize a combo breaker, wake up attack, or a powerful X-ray to bait your opponent into. Rather than in like other games players build special by simply blocking, wait for a enemy combo to end, and then use your special and win.

With SWTOR, there are so many under appreciated features specific to that particular MMO. the leveling for instance, really enthralled players to learn about there class and the impacts of their choices. But players were disappointed in end game due to the version of the encounters we had to release while we fine tuned a better version simply because of our deadlines. if you played end game raiding, you must have liked the leveling or else you would have quit mid-stride and never reached end game. So the game itself fulfilled its purpose, by drawing in the community with enthralling quests and personal objectives being achieved. So the game itself wasn't and isn't a failure at all, it needed a change. And to compare the release of game to an already perfected MMO model such as World of Warcraft is unfair, do you think Blizzard never had issues to address since the release of the game? they are still making dramatic over hauls to date. Statistically SWTOR is the most consistent MMO game play currently without having issues or balance dilemmas. Although that wasn't the case on relase, it only took 4 months to resolve ALL conflictions. Rather than 4 years like other MMOs.

Why are you even trying to suggest this? I mean, it's lfr. Most people that go in there don't give a **** about having to look up best ways of gearing, let alone having to make weighed decisions.
I know some casual/social people that kill a boss in lfr, they win an item and go "awwww... I already had better", then use a coin and win the same item cursing. Then I look on the loot table for their spec and it's the ONLY item on there for them. None of those people are stupid, they honestly don't give a **** and don't research the best way of gearing up and just take as it comes. Win an item? Oh fun. Don't win? Awww... Oh wait I can use a coin for extra chance! Damn, didn't win anything again. Better luck next boss hopefully!
Same will probably be true with the "chose loot for other spec than currently playing" a lot of people will not know about it for some time (and not care), nor use it to their advantage. Let's say you're a resto shaman with elemental off-spec; a certain boss drops 3 (mail) intellect items for you, and 1 trinket for healers specfic you already have. Smart thing to do would be select elemental for that boss, eliminating the healer trinket to drop again for you. You know what? If you ask me a TON of the lfr people will not even think about this. Even if they'd encounter it, someone points it out to them, they probably won't even be bothered enough next week to remember it. They're not stupid, they really just don't care. And if you ask me there's a lot of players like that. Obviously there's others as well, not denying that, but for the big masses making loot complicated for no reason doesn't seem like a good idea nor do I see a reason for it.

People in lfr care about 2 things in general I think:
1) Not having too much bad luck.
2) They want to gear at a reasonable rate.

Now 2 is decided already by blizzard as to how long they want the tier to last (which makes pretty much any suggestion to gear up faster a lost cause if you ask me), and 1 is being somewhat adressed by having bad luck streak protection in 5.3, which is a feature nobody needs to know specifics about to still notice the benefits of.

I remember at the very start of DS release loot rules were same as in dungeons; hunters being able to roll on strength rings/necks/trinkets, shamans being able to roll on 2h and str pieces, etc. Blizzard quickly adjusted it and made items class-specific, with the reason "LFR goes so fast players don't have much time to see if an item is actually good for them so they just hit need because the next boss is already being pulled; therefor we have made it more clear as to what class should try and get which piece of gear" (cba looking up specific quote but that was the gist of it). And while everyone called the reason bs (which it may have been with regards to what they fixed), their statement still holds on its own imo. LFR is quick content for the big masses and shouldn't require too much input for personal decisions. Having a window pop up with "you won" or "you didn't win" is absolutely perfect for this.

I avoid LFR like the plague. Its a horrible environment. The current looting system only makes it worse. Could go weeks before winning anything then you win something that is useless or you already have. Dumb system is dumb. And it only gets worse the longer you are running it.

You're having a chance at epics with minimal personal investment and time (in comparison to getting comparable epics ANYWHERE ELSE in the game). Why are the ONLY complaints with LFR either 'it's too hard', or 'I am not getting loot'?

The loot system for LFR will change on 2 important aspects in 5.3.....
1. The selection for the spec. Which makes it obsolete for players to use the wrong spec, which has a high impact on the LFR overall performance.
We have people queue as dps, yet they run around in tank gear for the system to give them their offspec item. Just to name one example. The new change will make this as no longer needed. One can use their real spec and gear and perform better.

2. The increased win chance on the charms. The times of using bonus rolls on end without winning anything will be over. At the worst, one wastes only a few rolls, but the win chance increases with each wasted roll, until the win is rather guaranteed.

There needs to be only 1 more feature implemented, and that would be probably the multi-item win. Winning is one thing, but winning the same item 5 times in a row is as much a turn off than not winning anything at all. But then, I at least understand how that won't go away. The loot table of a boss is just that, the loot table. And in Normal and Heroic the items that drop are also always of the same table, and there as well the same item could drop 5 times in a row. No difference.

You're having a chance at epics with minimal personal investment and time (in comparison to getting comparable epics ANYWHERE ELSE in the game). Why are the ONLY complaints with LFR either 'it's too hard', or 'I am not getting loot'?

Doesn't need an increase in drop rates just a stabilizing of how you get stuff. Right now it's random on top of random on top of more random. And it stays random for the entire duration.

Current loot system is fine. people need to stop expecting to get loot every time they run a raid and expecting to be geared up after a week. If you get to pick and choose your loot and have it all thrown at you in the first week what is even the point of continuing to play? so you can afk in town with your shiney new pixels?

I agree, but....

I ran 2 of the 3 wings in LFr last night on my hunter and... gold. Ran 1 wing on my druid. GOld. Overall, I've gotten a few LFR pieces, so I'm fine, but this points up two issues with LFR that I think are not solvable. First, why continue to run LFR if you have no need for the gear? IN a regular raid you go for the fun of playing with friends and to kill new bosses. If you are really good and went 12/12N early on you went to heroic modes which was really your goal. LFR offers neither of those things.

Second, if you go too long without loot, then you'll get discouraged and wonder if LFR is worth the time. After all, the entire thing is only 360vp for the week. I can get the same VP running a daily heroic and a daily scenario (145 per day combined) and, if there are roadblocks like Durumu, much less stress and probably less time.

I think the loot protection in 5.3 will be an interesting development. ON the one hand, near guaranteed loot is actually boring, on the other, no loot for weeks is discouraging. Can they steer a middle course?