Post navigation

The Christian Patriarchy Movement’s Dark Secret of Wife Spanking

* * *

As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing: domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.

* * *

Warning: this is a heavy and disturbing article.

As Doug Phillips and his ship are sinking, his story is causing a ripple of waves of questioning, recalling of incidences, comparing notes, sharing of stories. The Christian Patriarchy Movement has common denominators which can include families who choose to homeschool their children, family-integrated churches, families who practice courtship, large families, etc. But there are differences in practices and interpretations. For example, teachings under one patriarchal leader, what godly fatherhood looks like or what a godly husband looks like in practice may not be the same among patriarchal leaders.

I have a few observations as I’ve been watching from my spiritual abuse blogging seat. We seem to have quite a few Christian Patriarchal leaders heading up their own groups/churches. Many of these leaders may have elders or church governance in place which gives the appearance of legitimate accountability for the church leaders, but as we see in so many spiritual abuse cases, these elders can be “yes-men” who do not challenge the leaders or turn a blind eye to the known abuses. This is what allowed Phillips to have a decade-long affair and continue in his “godly” fatherhood ministry, living in luxury.

* *

But what about other abuses and practices that can go “unnoticed” or out of the public spotlight?

* *

One of these known abuses going on in some Christian Patriarchal circles is wife spanking. The real label is domestic violence which of course is illegal. If the wife does not agree to spanking, it is not Biblical. Husbands do not own their wives and do not have the right to abuse them. Adding the adjective “Biblical” in front of a word like “discipline” does not make it in fact Biblical. Furthermore, when do husbands have the right to discipline their wives?

**

**

As I have reported on abuses within the Homeschool Movement, I have been the recipient of e-mails and subsequent phone calls from people who have shared their concerns about this ongoing problem. A pastor contacted me last year regarding this topic, naming names, groups involved, etc. What he shared with me (people involved and practices) lines up with the comments which will follow.

One of the difficulties of reporting something like this is that I wanted proof that wife spanking is taught before reporting on it. Everyone I’ve asked has said that we’re not going to find much evidence of wife spanking in print. The leaders who promote it are not dummies – they know there would be outrage if this kind of printed material got in the “wrong” hands.

I asked my source when this abuse is taught to men. I was told that wife spanking is sometimes taught at mens’ meetings, heads-of-households meetings, in one-on-one counseling meetings, or sometimes in marital counseling by church leaders or pastors.

Over at Jen’s Gems blog, several commenters have mentioned some of the key names I’ve been hearing/reading. While some will want to focus on the named man in the comments, it is important to look at the entire Christian Patriarchy system that is at work creating these abuses. Doug Phillips was not alone in his method of spiritual tyranny and preventing “godly men” from disclosing the truths they knew. This is going on elsewhere.

We must understand that Christian Patriarchy can easily set up a man to have a free license to abuse his wife. I am very concerned about pastors who teach men that they need to get their wives under control. I overheard my own former pastor say this. How he would propose doing this, I do not know, but the idea of a man using his authority to control could easily be taken to the extreme of wife spanking.

Christian Patriarchy is fertile ground for wife spanking and domestic violence and it’s time to shout the bullhorn on this abuse.

I’ve copied a few key notable comments from Jen’s Gems to note the abuse. The comments were condensed, so feel free to click on the links to go directly to the full comments.

“Let’s get specific here.” Okay, Mykl, I’m game. Are you okay with wife spanking? R.C. Sproul, Jr. is, as anyone who *really* knows him knows. He regularly spanked his wife and he taught the men in his church to spank their wives. He was also abusive of his children, even the babies. He was deep into Gary Ezzo and blanket training. Just listening to his Basement Tapes won’t clue you in to that. You’d have to know him up close and personal, or have friends who are members of his church in Virginia, to figure any of that out.

I get really suspicious of men who jump to defend wife spankers and child abusers like R.C. Sproul, Jr. So are you in to wife spanking yourself? Blanket training?

I wish I could agree. What comes out of R.C. Sproul, Jr every time he opens his mouth is hypocrisy. Same thing with Doug Phillips. Eloquence doesn’t make for integrity, and neither man have an ounce of integrity. R.C. Sproul Jr. spanked is wife, abused his babies, and drinks like a fish. Doug Phillips cheated on his wife for many years. Neither man’s name should ever be mentioned again with anything other than contempt. They are biblically disqualified from teaching again and you are a fool to listen to them.

Mykl you are either a very ignorant man or you are a deliberate promoter of hypocrites and wolves in sheep’s clothing. Hopefully it’s the former. If you have a personal opinion on Patriarchy then some of us might like to hear it. The problem is you just destroyed all your credibility with your ignorant name dropping, so now it will be a hard sell.

Mel, I can confirm Lindt’s comments about RC Sproul Jr and the wife spanking. We were members there years ago and witnessed it in his home. We were there in the early years of St. Peter Presbyterian Church. RC would sometimes invite families to his home for a meal, not so much for the regular folks, but if you were big donors to the church and Highlands Study Center like we were.

Ghirard then discusses a disturbing parenting concept taught in these circles called “blanket training” that Sproul practiced. We pick up the story on the topic of domestic violence as Ghirard shares what happened next at Sproul Jr.’s home:

After supper as we sat in the living room with RC and his children. Denise was cleaning up in the kitchen. RC got up to go in the kitchen. Denise must have done something to make him mad because he angrily told her, “Go to your room”. It sounded just like he was talking to a little child. Denise went to their bedroom and a little later RC went up and we could hear him spanking her. She stayed up there a long time before she came back down. The look on her face told all. She was humiliated and ashamed. It was the most awkward supper we’d ever had in anyone’s home. We didn’t accept anymore invitations from RC after that.

Another commenter asks Ghirard if he confronted Sproul, Jr. about this and Ghirard responded:

Yes, I did at least try and speak with him. Not that night. It was all too shocking at the time. But later after I’d had some time to process. I didn’t get very far. He’s hypersensitive to anything that he thinks is criticism. There was always the threat of church discipline if you ever got out of line. Just asking the wrong sort of question would earn you his ire. He operates a lot like Doug Phillips, if I understand your descriptions of Phillips correctly. You don’t question the cult leader. Not unless you want big trouble.

It makes be sad to say it but I have to agree with you that Denise is better off. She was such a wonderful person and she had such a miserable life married to RC. Many doctors say that a very large percentage of chronic illness is caused by depressed immune systems that are compromised by severe stress, poor diet and lack of exercise. Denise Sproul’s life was tremendously stressful all thanks to RC Jr and he forced the family to eat a horrible diet. I blame Denise’s recurring cancers on him.

I once heard someone say that they were discussing these things with RC Jr. and that he said that if he were to tell his wife to go stand on her head in the corner, and she didn’t, then he would have her put under church discipline.

My immediate response was why wasn’t he put under church discipline for not loving his wife like Christ loved the church?

Seems like that route doesn’t come up with these guys….

******************************************

I have no way of validating the comments above, but am convinced that this is indeed a problem in the Homeschool Movement combined with Christian Patriarchy Movement. Of course when we are part of a movement and don’t see the abuse, we want to say that it doesn’t happen, but it is happening. So what is a godly response to ungodliness?

Exposure!

Women are trapped in homes by their Christian Patriarchal husbands and being told that they are being treated the way God expects godly husbands to treat their wives.

Women are also taught that when there are problems they face and their husbands are negligent, they can turn to their church leaders.

Where is woman to turn when the abuse she is incurring from her husband has been taught by church leaders?

Where is she going to go when she’s been taught to never go outside the church – to police or governmental authorities – for help?

She is virtually held captive in her own home because her husband AND church leaders are abusers.

These women need our prayers and our help. We must expose this mess and put the public spotlight on this travesty. We have voices and must speak up for them.

Comment navigation

Ken isn’t answering the questions I asked him about this time yesterday. Hmmm. . .
Come on Ken. Do you have something to hide? Do you have a vested interest in the abusive, misogynistic, false doctrines and practices you are defending?

I have another question for you. What search terms were you using when you found this site? Was the word spanking one of them? If so, why? Why would you be searching the internet for information on spanking? Not accusing you of anything. Just curious.

I came across this blog quite my accident. I read everything that comes past me. Knowledge of any kind enriches the mind.

I have been married twice and had several girls who lived with me over my short, wicked life. Both my wives divorced me for what I later understood was lack of discipline. Every time they would start a fuss with me out of the blue for no apparent reason I wrote it off as just typical twisted female thinking and got through it like most men.

In both marriages this illogical behavior by my wives escalated throgh the years with both of them blaming me for their lack of happiness in life. Let’s understand this before we continue. No one can MAKE you happy.

I am on my way to my third marriage now and the woman I live with started the same identical pattern. Fuss for no logical reason. Express dissatisfaction in my treatment of her in spite of the fact that I am one of the most easy going, loving men I know. Then one day I thought of something I had read years ago and dismissed. “Women are like children.” I have to admit most men I have met seem to innately understand this.

On that realization I began to think of my previous two marriages and the how the pattern of illogical argument from my wives exactly matched that of a child. So, one day I snached my current wife to be up, threw her across my knee and gave her a spanking to remember. I told her exactly why she was getting the spanking and that should she repeat such behavior to expect the same again.

After she had finished crying she came to me and promised to never repeat the behavior and since that day we have the loving relationship I had always wanted from my previous two marriages.

It occurs to me that women, like children, expect a man to be in control. Women, like children, use these little illogical, emotion based, arguments to test if their man is deserving of their love, and most importantly – respect.

My father was a very wise man. When my second wife brought over the divorce papers for me to sign I was about to refuse. He looked at me and said “Son, you can’t get her back. She has lost respect for you.” Notice he said “respect” not love. Looking back I now know a simple spanking or two would have saved both my marriages.

Assuming you are not a troll, Jack, I will respond to you. No, women are not childlike, spanking your wife is abuse and is against the law, and no, spanking wouldn’t have saved your first two marriages. There are lots of happy, violence-free marriages where the two people respect each other. The common denominator in your three dysfunctional marriages is you.

Wow, Jack! So you’re saying that three women, independently said basically the same things about you, and yet you see the problem as being THEIRS? What does it take to overcome your self-absorbed narcissism? Look in the mirror, you’ll see the cause of your problem.

Howard Curtis, 72, is accused of running a “cult” when he was pastor and leader of the “religion-based-organisation” Coulsdon Christian Fellowship, in Chipstead Valley Road, where he would allegedly spank women and children “to bring them closer to God”.

…. According to Ms Osborne, Curtis’ teachings, under the guise of a mantra called ‘Christian Domestic Discipline’ were “unorthodox” and the church under his leadership was “much more like a cult”.

To find out about this stuff is sickening. Sounds like the same type of stuff women in some countries suffer. R.C, Sproul is sick and perverted. His poor wife. Why didn’t her family step in and rescue her and get her deprogrammed. Why didn’t they get someone to take that jerk out into the woods and give him a “spanking”.

It has been about a year since I’ve posted on this thread, during which time I’ve been back to Southwest Virginia and asked a couple of friends who were at Saint Peter in the late 1990’s. They confirm that RC Jr never taught men in the church to spank their wives. Whoever your two pseudonym sources are, you and they are guilty of libel.

Cynthia Kuhnsman put on all kinds of airs as a pseudo-psychologist, particularly in coining the the term “Botkin Syndrome”, which is also libelous. Decent people do not make such baseless accusations against real living people, certainly not in writing.

Being thrown out of these type of churches is a good thing. Not something to be feared. They can no longer burn you at the stake. Abuse of women in and out of churches is wide spread. I am talking about emotional as well as physical. We are second class in so many ways. It has always been that way. Thank goodness the churches (Catholic, Calvin followers etc.) do not have the power they used to or tied in with the government (state church) or it would be like it used to be and some of us would be hiding in the woods with our families and pets. I am not sure of where we are in God’s timing but I thank him we were born now, not then and here in the USA. There is a false spirit so strong (false religious) in the churches now. It’s not their wonderful words but their actions that give them away and the false spirit they are following. Yes, people follow like sheep. When you are confused and lose your ability to think or lose your God given common sense, you are in trouble. When your actions no longer exhibit the fruits of the Spirit, re-examine yourself.

Carmen – clearly you will accept nothing but a guilty verdict, regardless of the evidence to the contrary. These are my friends, they were there since SPPC was founded. I joined when that church was only four years old, and their testimony confirms my own experience that no such thing was ever taught or practiced there. Julie Ann just loves throwing slime around. I hope that she loses her next libel lawsuit.

Carmen – given that the allegation is that he taught this at MEN’S meetings, men would be the only ones who were witnesses to it. The answer is that it was never taught at men’s meetings, or any other venue. I have good friends who are women married to those men and others. They have never been spanked. This story is pure hocum.

You’re right, Ken. The article is slimy. The idea that a man thinks he gets to discipline his wife is one of the slimiest things I can imagine. The search terms “wife spanking” and “Christian domestic discipline” are the most common searches that bring people to my blog. It is going on. It is being taught. Women are being harmed. I have another personal testimony from a wife that I will be posting soon.

Patriarchy here in the US and around the world treats women as less-thans, as objects for men to use and abuse. Women lose their identities, their personhood. That is indeed slimy.

As far as RC Sproul, Jr. goes – you are mistaken, there were 2 men I quoted in the article and I spoke with a pastor who shared his personal experience, so that’s 3 individuals. I have the pastor’s name, phone number, and e-mail address that I spoke with. This pastor is legit. During our conversation, I was searching online and I found his church online, sermons online, pictures of him, etc. I believe these three individuals because they all share the same details.

Happy Thanksgiving!

PS – I think you mean defamation, not libel. But it won’t work anyway because I believe what I am saying to be true. Someone would have to prove that I am lying intentionally. They can’t because I am not 🙂

While one could make the argument that the Pharisees represented an anomaly in Jewish religions thought, a more likely candidate for comparison might be the Sadducees.

A more relevant example for wife spanking would be the reset in the status of women accompanying collapse of the former Soviet Union. A female Russian journalist working in the United States at the time of the Soviet Union’s disintegration observed the status of women in the United States was equally as precarious as that of their Soviet counterparts.

It is simply somewhere between difficult and impossible to get rid of practices that have survived over time. One reason is that laws, and the regimes that pass them, tend to come and go. Meanwhile, underneath the chaos, people tend to do what they’ve always done.

This seems particularly true when governments try to eradicate longstanding practices with laws. Examples include the early 20th century Prohibition of alcohol in the United States and the late 20th century and early 21st century war on drugs.

While true, the issue under discussion was whether the what people do over time, such as wife spanking, tend to outlast efforts to eradicate it.

And why would people who are supposedly reborn of the spirit revert back to such an unChristian practice such as wife spanking? You say that “conservative men have tradition on their side.” I say those “conservative” men are not following Christ.

“You say that ‘conservative men have tradition on their side.’ I say those ‘conservative’ men are not following Christ.”

This one of those apples and oranges comparisons. Conservatives are not necessarily Christian. Likewise, not all Christians are conservative.

Neither is “wife spanking” specifically condoned nor forbidden by the Bible. It is one of those issues on which the Bible is silent.

Several accepted practices within Christianity have pagan origins. Given the harsh winters in Palestine, Jesus probably wasn’t born on December 25th. Nor is it likely that his birth coincided with with winter solstice. So called Christmas trees can be traced back to Celtic celebrations.

Yet, what Jack offered is known in some Christian circles as testimony. He is, in effect, saying, this is what not spanking my first two wives cost me, and this is what spanking my third wife did for me.

At the same time, the statistical record is clear. The decline of marriages in the United States, coupled with a sharp increases in divorces, coincided with spanking i general, and wife spanking in particular, becoming less acceptable, even criminal.

Was their a direct cause and effect? Probably not. There seldom is a single causality in these things. Yet, at the same time, it is hard to totally rule it out as a potentially contributing factor.

More clear is that, for all their faults, male dominated households of 60 years ago were far more stable than is the case these days. Three quarters of adults were married and the divorce rate was less than three percent!

Withheld,
Not sure what your point is, but I wonder if you’d been able to speak with the women in those ‘male-dominated’ households, what THEIR point of view might have been? I’m also wondering if your comments here are meant to imply that you spank your wife? It certainly seems as it you aren’t particularly bothered by it.

What you are defending is a husband using physical force to control his wife. This is illegal and unscriptural. You cannot say that male-dominated households were more stable simply by looking at divorce rates. It would make logical sense that the divorce rates were down, women feared for their lives and didn’t dare ask for divorce as they should have. Also, there was not adequate safe places for women to go in male-dominated society. You’ve had enough to say here. You may not defend wife spanking as a method to control a wife any more here. It is abuse, plain and simple.

There might have been less divorces in the past but to equate it with male dominated marriages is off. There were no options then. They weren’t necessarily happy marriages. Divorces are easier to get now. I just can’t understand someone not seeing how wrong this spanking thing is. I know there are a lot of damaged women out there that might equate this with caring but there is no excuse for a man to do this or rationalize it. It’s sick and does not belong in the church of Christ. It’s unclean. Jack is a dope but unfortunately I think some of the others that do this are just wicked and vile and have an unclean spirit. ajc Wouldn’t it just be nicer to have a healthy relationship.

“More clear is that, for all their faults, male dominated households of 60 years ago were far more stable than is the case these days. Three quarters of adults were married and the divorce rate was less than three percent!”.

Exhibit A: my parents.

Unbelievers. Married for twenty years from mid seventies. Dad physically and emotionally abused my Mother. She was essentially a door mat. She was given money for food and little else. My Dad spent hundreds per week on alcohol at the local pub. I had my first ‘store bought outfit’ when I was 14. I grew up in one of the most expensive suburbs in Australia yet we lived like paupers because my Dad would not give my Mother money.

She never knew his income.
She had to ask for money.

I grew up walking on eggshells around him. As a result I am highly strung and jump at loud noises. I get physically hot and go red in the face when in large crowds.

This wonderful “male dominant” household ended in sweet divorce when I was 14.

When my grandmother died and my mother grew wealthy overnight.

She couldn’t leave him fast enough and I would have done the exact same!

I did not marry my Father.

I married a non Alpha male. A gentle man who keeps his hands to himself.

I cannot imagine what it would be like to be married to an ‘asshat’ Christian male who wants to ‘dominate’ me. Yuk

Right on. There were less divorces because there were no options. No where to go. Glad you told your story. Can anyone really be stupid or unclean enough to buy into that spanking thing. I am glad you married someone nice. ajc

Withheld – Three quarters of adults were married – How many of those marriages were bad? From what I have seen. there is a good chance a lot of them were unhappy but the women were stuck. No jobs and children to care for. No where to go. No other role. Lifewithporpoise – Your husband have a much older single brother?????? Why have so many people that say they are Christians gotten involved in things that are so unscriptural and perverted. So off. I think it is because they are listening to demons or their flesh. God save us from these people. ajc

Right on Marsha What planet did Jack come from? What happened to him to make him this way and seriously, should we be praying for him. I feel a little bad trashing him but the spanking thing is so off. ajc I am serious about the praying for him thing.

“…you are defending is a husband using physical force to control his wife….”

Actually, I did nothing of the sort. Instead, I pointed out that long standing practices tend to outlast efforts to eradicate them.

Really, are you so sufficiently naive to believe women are happier today than they were in previous generations? If so, might I suggest that you peruse both current and past results from the United States General Social Survey.

I am going to bow out after this comment. When I first found this site, and I do not know or remember how I did, reading it made me feel kind of sick. Because of what it was discussing and because it was one more crazy thing that “religious” people bought into. My question is, where is discernment? Why are these people so deceived as to think this is a good practice. The same reason John Calvin burned people in the past if they did not agree with him? What is it from. Man’s evil heart? Doctrines of demons that are spoken of in the new testament? Same spirits that lead all pagan religions? Why is there such a mix? Some of my most confusing and unattractive experiences have been from pastors and church people. We live in the real world. King David needed God’s help in the real world to make it. Marriage does not necessarily make a person happy. Divorce does not necessarily make a person unhappy. But bottom line, this unclean spanking thing comes from deception or the flesh or both. It is unclean. When you start following these thoughts or man made rules, you are not following the spirit and there is a difference. Porpoise, your mom did not have to use you as a pawn to extract more money. She could have done that for many reasons. No point speculating. But we don’t live in la la land. We live in the real world with a real God, whose real help we need to make it. Some women want a decent marriage. We have an adversary who really dislikes us or wants to screw us up for his own reasons. There is no point going into all this stuff about marriage and divorce, because bottom line is – that practice is wrong, unscriptural and unclean. Most or all religion is garbage. You need to know Christ personally and follow the new way. I remember thinking and asking (no one seemed impressed) why Mrs. Sproul Jr. didn’t confide in or get help from her family? Did she want to protect her marriage for her own personal reasons? Did she buy the goods that they were living the Christian way? Who knows? If you don’t get how much the adversary wants to degrade and hurt women, then just count how many topless bars there are in your town. I don’t mean the women who work there, I mean the women whose husbands or boyfriends stop in there after work. And the magazines etc. We must see this stuff as God sees it. Sin and wrong. The world is under the influence of the Adversary and his cohorts. We must see things as God sees them. ajc

p.s. I don’t think Eric was defending Sproul, I think he was defending himself and the authority of pastors. I think he was seeing himself under some type of scrutiny and might believe in that pastor authority thing (don’t question or touch the pastor) I think he got his feathers ruffled and couldn’t let go. Misplaced (big time) loyalty. Dangerous, really dangerous. ajc I mean DANGEROUS.

Carmen sure, how? But to dear porpoise if I was in love or had what I considered a good marriage and it went south, I believe I would not be quite so happy everybody wants a good life perhaps you are exceedingly blessed ajc

At its core, domestic abuse versus domestic discipline is a battle of the sexes.

Conservative men have tradition on their side.

Liberal women have laws on their side.

That may be true in general terms, but I don’t know if the lines are as clearly drawn as that at all times.

Some women buy into this stuff (specifically, “Christian wife spanking”) and will come to blogs like this to defend it, or defend similar practices or attitudes, that could be considered derogatory or harmful to women.

Withheld said,

LIKELY OUTCOME

In the end, conservative men will probably win because tradition tends to outlast law prohibiting it.

But then you have conservative women such as myself who won’t put up with the percentage of conservative men who defend things such as “wife spanking.”

Withheld said,

It is simply somewhere between difficult and impossible to get rid of practices that have survived over time.

I have never before heard that wife spanking is a common practice among differing cultures over long stretches of time (as in centuries).

Withheld said,

This seems particularly true when governments try to eradicate longstanding practices with laws. Examples include the early 20th century Prohibition of alcohol in the United States and the late 20th century and early 21st century war on drugs.

…. While true, the issue under discussion was whether the what people do over time, such as wife spanking, tend to outlast efforts to eradicate it.

This, by the way is also why, along with organized crime, religion in Russia was able to survive three quarter of a century under the authoritative Bolshevik domination.

That doesn’t mean it’s always pointless to try enacting laws against so-called traditions or particular sins that some consider harmful to people.

I have read that pederasty and pedophilia have been pretty common through history in some cultures, but I don’t take that to mean that the USA (or other nations) should suddenly remove statutory rape and child fondling from being arrestable or jailable offenses.

‘Let’s just remove child rape and child molestation off the law books because some men have, through the ages, diddled children’ doesn’t seem to be a smooth move.
(But I am not sure if that is what you’re arguing or not, but that can be one outcome of your observation, as I read it.)

Withheld said,

Neither is “wife spanking” specifically condoned nor forbidden by the Bible. It is one of those issues on which the Bible is silent.

This one of those apples and oranges comparisons. Conservatives are not necessarily Christian. Likewise, not all Christians are conservative.

Neither is “wife spanking” specifically condoned nor forbidden by the Bible. It is one of those issues on which the Bible is silent.

Yes, but the sexist dilbert men (and their female allies who go along with this) who call themselves Christians (who are conservative) tend to use the Bible to justify wife spanking.

Withheld said,

More clear is that, for all their faults, male dominated households of 60 years ago were far more stable than is the case these days. Three quarters of adults were married and the divorce rate was less than three percent!

What do you consider stable?

A few reasons why marriage is delayed, or not happening today, include, but not limited to issues such as women putting marriage off to finish college, work for several years first, and that a lot of young men are unable to obtain full time, steady work that would allow them to financially support a household and wife.

Withheld said,

As previously stated, my point is that what what people have done over time tends to outlast efforts to eradicate it.

It does not follow that people should then stop trying to eradicate it.

Slavery has existed for centuries across nations and still takes place today, such as young women who are kidnapped and sold into sex slavery rings in the United States.

That it still occurs does not necessarily mean that American citizens, law enforcement, or our legal system should simply shrug their shoulders and give up because it’s inevitable it may happen at times.

Are you arguing that people should stop fighting against, or enacting laws against, practices they consider immoral or harmful? I’m not seeing what your greater point is – or perhaps you don’t have one but you are merely making observations.

Withheld said,

I don’t have to. Couples have started cohabiting instead of marrying. As a result, the divorce rate is down.

Then, too, marriages are simply not taking place. The number of never-married adults has become greater.

Withheld said,

Actually, I did nothing of the sort. Instead, I pointed out that long standing practices tend to outlast efforts to eradicate them.

And the take away from this view is what?

That it’s okay for men to wife spank?

That the Christians on this blog who oppose it should just accept it as a fact of life and stop speaking out against it, or what?

Withheld said,

Really, are you so sufficiently naive to believe women are happier today than they were in previous generations? If so, might I suggest that you peruse both current and past results from the United States General Social Survey.

(and)
…While women in previous generations may have been “stuck” in “bad” marriages, research suggests that having more options made available to them has not necessarily made women happier.

That response (“Really, are you so sufficiently naive to believe women are happier today than they were in previous generations?”), among a few others of yours I’ve seen, was unnecessarily condescending, or it comes across that way.

Anyway….
And the cure for American women’s supposed unhappiness today is to embrace and accept 1950s, old school “male dominance” in marriage (to use one of your phrases), or for the folks on this blog to stop complaining about wife spanking?

You’re saying then that a woman’s only choices in life are between a “sh*t sandwich” or a bowl of snot ice cream. -?

May there not be another, third (or 4th, 5th, etc) alternative? There are only two outcomes for women in your view?

There are some women who get by in life okay in a third or 4th alternative.

Author Bella DePaulo is a never-married woman who is happy being single and living alone. There are women who are lesbians – they are happy to have a romantic partnership with another woman.

There are conservative Christian women married to conservative Christian men who have egalitarian marriages, who are happy in those marriages (Christian author Jory Micah is one such person; she blogs regularly).

I said I wasn’t going to blog anymore. I need to spend more time in reading the word and praying but I am having a delicious lunch of home made French fries and salad and have a few minutes How does the husband decide what deserves spanking? Burned French fries?? Not agreeing with something the husband (and I use that term lightly) says or does??? How do you hold an adult down for a spanking? Why doesn’t that adult just say no way you jerk. Get your kicks some other way. All I can think of is the woman is following religion instead of the spirit and the word. Common. On the 1950’s thing. My parents were married during the 50’s and my dad wasn’t a jerk or pervert. He loved and looked after my mom. I had the best parents in the world. A real family with normal problems (not enough money etc.) I had not even heard of this or knew what a Calvinist was until recently. All in the name of religion. Thank you Father for my mom and dad and family. ajc

P.S. that picture of the man taking off his belt is disturbing. It might be better or make a better contrast to have a picture of a family sitting together at a restaurant for a meal. ajc As poor as we were, my dad took us out to the local steakhouse or base club to eat. Some of my most precious memories. ajc

There are always going to be exceptions. Generalizations tend to be about flow rather than specifics. Where humankind has been is often a good indication of where it is headed.

Historically, dating back to at least the time of the Romans in Western civilization, it wasn’t until the Age of Enlightenment that husbands no longer had absolute laws over their wives. It not until the late 19th century the Maryland passes a law forbidding wife beating. Family courts and relative ease of divorce don’t exist until the early 20th century. Much that was attributable to the Bolsheviks.

The doors to women’s legal liberation from men don’t swing wide open until the 1960s and ’70s. I know, because I watched it happen. I very clearly remember the changes to society following the Sexual Revolution. Since then, and while you may not care for that assessment, women are at war with men. A very good example is the issues in the 2016 presidential race.

When it comes to stability, I like things like absence of egregious concentrations of wealth, collective consensus, little evidence of economic morbidity, low crime, low inflation, low probability of first defaults, minimal extreme factions, minimal fluctuation in output, minimal group grievances devoid of ochlocratical behavior, minimal interventions by external actors, minimal juvenile delinquency, minimal migration within contiguous boundaries for economic survival, political behavior consistent with widely accepted norms, relative equality in education, stable households, and where there is little erosion of legitimate authority.

While the analysis of slavery in the United States is quite accurate, it unfortunately omits what is sometimes known as wage slavery or the working poor. It also neglects what happened to the modern Soviet woman after collapse of the Soviet Union. After women lost that equality status under the Soviet constitution, there developed a thriving network of sex slaves from Odessa to numerous counties. Destinations include the United States.

Women in the United States weren’t encouraged to go to college until after the Soviet Union launched Sputnik. The big lie then was that the Soviets beat the Americans into space because they had women engineers, professors, and scientists. That was only half the story. The other half was that the Soviets literally had a manpower shortage after the Great Patriotic War. They had to fill those vacancies with women! Yet, despite the propaganda, the Soviet’s success in space was largely attributable to one man.

Please feel free to fight for all the laws you wish. At the same time, please remember that laws are, quite literally, paper thin. That was a reality Soviet women, once an exemplar to the world, too for granted until it was swept out from under them without a shot being fired in a revolution.

The point of the above is that progress isn’t linear. It is usually cyclical. As a result, when stretched out over time, it resembles a sine wave oscillating around a central tendency. Historically, that central tendency has been male-dominated institutions with women playing subordinate roles.

When it comes to wife spanking, while you may think it harmful, it might be a personal choice for some women. To put this in perspective, it might be wise to remember that on the other side of the male-female divide there are men very willing and legally able to deny women access to any and all forms of birth control. Each side is pointing a political finger at the other while claiming what they’re doing is immoral.

In other words, while the Religious Left is formulating plans to control control men, The Religious Right is making plans to control women. Right now, Religious Right has more money and has the ear of Congress! Also, five of the nine justices on the Supreme Court are Catholic.

The only reason Republican politicians may not quashed access to birth control thus far is because campaign contributors are making a ton of money off birth control products. In addition to the pill, there may be a male birth control product on the market next year. With the huge profit margins on pharmaceuticals, there are literally millions of dollars per year in profits at stake.

Still, in addition to the war on Planned Parenthood, half a dozen companies and orthodox Christians of various stripes are lined up to fight providing birth control products for women. One Catholic college in particular sees itself as being in the forefront of the fight to save lives of the unborn just like it was in its battle with institutionalized slavery.

Finally, while you are perfectly free to accusing me of being condescending, please remember that I have been called a “moron” and “vile:” in posts on this forum. Yet, I did not respond in kind.

If this is something done under the guise of Christianity then other pastors should call up the pastor that condones this, make an appt. with him and take him to task over it. I think that is scriptural. The people doing this are smearing the gospel. The people involved in this are not exposed to this blog. If there are victims (I don’t mean willing participants), then other Christians should step in and help them even if it is only to picket the churches involved. I think there is more emotional abuse here than actual physical abuse. ajc

O.K. signing off for good. No point of going on and on about this. I now know about this ugly activity that people are engaged in, Shocking and revolting and unsound but unless there are true victims and they are helped, why go on and on. bye ajc

Withheld, you keep talking about a war between men and women and asserting that women are trying to control men. I see no evidence of that at all. Control them how? What in the world are you talking about?

Spurious accusations? You said clearly that women are at war with men in your last post in this thread and that women were trying to control men in another thread. Have you forgotten already?

I am not in denial about the state of current politics. As I have said, I see no signs of women trying to control men, only women wanting equality. I have asked you to provide an example and you either can’t or won’t. You just accuse me of things (making spurious accusations and being paranoid) rather than contribute to a discussion.

That said, I don’t know where he is at with the Lord. He’s just a really nice guy.

Plenty of men spew Bible verses every sentence and yet are the biggest dogs of all.

I got the other type… The guy who is the ‘probably not reaaalllly saved’ one (every church has one) because he never bought the religious tripe. My husband is intelligent (professionally speaking) so he just thinks religion is a good laugh.

But he believes in the Lord and the produce in his life is sweet.

Blessed? Absolutely.

But I’m definitely alone on these issues regarding faith and sorting out ‘Churchianity’.

Regarding Eric and Pastorrrs.

There is no such thing as a full time salaried Pastor with ANY authority in the New Testament.

It’s proof texting gone mad.

Do yourself a huge favour and look up every reference to the word Shepherd from Greek Poimen (translated as pastors ONCE in Ephesians).

It has absolutely nothing to do with a man made ‘office of a bishop/pastor’.

Religion folks.

Ajc, feel free to get my email from JA too if you need a chat offline.

We are all working through the church crap!

Carmen. Don’t know you but I care about you.

Not cheap words.

I’ve seen answer crazy prayers over the years in my life. He is there and He is good.

One can’t say that with any degree of certainty, BTDT, as “Mark” didn’t write his gospel until 40 years after the crucifiction, and any information he might have had as to what Yeshua may or may not have said, would have been multiple-hand, and as such, hardly credible. Sadly, “Matthew” did no better – writing 5+ years after “Mark,” nearly 90% of his entire gospel was copied from “Mark,” in many instances, word for word.

“Three quarters of adults were married and the divorce rate was less than three percent!”

That’s absolutely true – being divorced was looked down upon and divorcees were ostracized. Instead, incompatible couples simply stayed together and remained miserable, while churning out socially maladjusted children.

Not Carmen here, ajc, but I CAN share a little information. The “Devil,” as such, was not found in the Bible until after the Babylonian Captivity of the 500’s BCE. The Jews, living in captivity in Babylon, were freed when the Persians overran Babylon. Over the next 50 years, the Persians (Iranians) also returned them to Israel and aided in rebuilding Jerusalem. In the process of their association with the Persians, the Jews had occasion to learn of their religion, Zoroastrianism, which consisted of a good god, Ahura Mazda, and his evil twin brother, Angra Mainyu. From this point on, Satan, who had been a servant of the Bible’s god – the ‘Ha Sa-tan’ – began taking on more of the characteristics of the Persian Angra Mainyu.

Much of the imagery we currently have for ‘the devil,’ comes not from the Bible, but from Milton’s “Paradise Lost” and Dante’s “Inferno“

In that same vein, on the other side of Israel, in Egypt, much further back in antiquity, two other twin-brother gods ruled Egyptian mythology – Horus (the good twin) and his evil twin brother, Set. Ultimately, Set killed Horus and chopped him into a thousand pieces, but the interesting part is that in ancient Egypt, gods were addressed as ‘Lord’ (that hasn’t changed much) and the Egyptian word for ‘Lord’ was, ‘Ten’. Much as in Spanish and other Mediterranean languages, the adjective followed the Noun, proper or common. ‘Lord Set’ then, would have been ‘Set-Ten’ – I can easily see how the word, ‘Satan’ could have evolved from that.

Much of the Jewish religion, once one studies the sources, borrows heavily from the mythologies of other cultures.

But slavery is thousands of years old, and abolition only a hundred and a half – didn’t you contend that such laws would be shortly overridden? That Conservatism (the art of keeping things the way they never were) would prevail?

And slavery is still with us. Sex trafficking and wage-slavery are rampant. So is much of the American penal system. So is child labor and child marriage. Even migrant labor is can be a form of slavery.