I am not degrading him. He's a great type designer. I'm just noting that his designs are not original. Like it says in Pirkei Avot, he's lacking the quality to cite his sources. To me, this is incorrect.

When I spoke to John Hudson about his Adobe Hebrew design, and noted that it was heavily influenced by Hadasa, he spoke openly about the influences.

In great type designs by true masters, it is not degrading to be influenced by predecesors. Only an arrogant person, too full of his or her own talents, can not acknowledge that they were inspired and who that inspiration is.

The history of early British and American type design is based upon this. Why should a talented type design in Israel be different?

>You are agreeing with me that Friedlander didnt create trop and possibly not even nikud. So why are we talking about him?
>I thought that we were speaking about not only taamei mikra but also type design. Hence, the Hadasa divurgance.
>I mentioned a couple of designers that did create trop and you countered me with Hadasa which seems by your own admission to be irrelevant.

I did not bring up Hadasa, you did. But I do love the font.

>No, Hadasa is relevent, as likely more people in the world lrearn Tanach in Hadasa than in Koren. Sorry, Raphael.

Not sure if that is true. The best selling Tanakh in Israel is the Koren Tanakh and all its competitors recognise this which is why they set their tanakhim in Keren. Apart from that, I would say that probably Vilna is the most popular. Yes Artscroll do sell a lot of Tanakhim, but I suspect that people actually learning Tanakh (and not Humash), are probably using Koren because its accuracy of the text which has been widely accepted (yes a little free marketing here :-) )

>No, he's not Jewish. He is Catholic. So was Bomberg, and he made the first Shas. He was priest, too.

Exactly. Dont you think thats a little strange. I mean, nothing against priests and all, but I hardly think Bomberg did Daf Yomi. Not that you have to do daf yomi to typeset a shas, but still, I bet if he did, there would be tens of thousands of Jews who would have appreciated it.

>Did he study teamey mikra? Actually, yes. He knows the laws of leining better than you me and Mr. Koren put together.

Really? how on earth do you know what I know and what Mr Koren knew about leyning? Isnt that just a little presumtious of you? Does he have a doctorate in trop? Was he a gabai in a shul for 10 years? Come on, lets not jump to conclusions here.

>I didn't choose him to create taamim for Hadasa. He "begged" me to do it for free, because he loves Hadasa.

>Also very interesting that Hadasa that was based on an Ashkenazic sefer torah has teamim that was inspired by Sephardic calligraphy. I meeting of the edot!
>I didn't say this, Raphael. Don't make fun of the works of masters, like Friedlander or Hudson. I am sure G-d put them in this world to do what they did, that others couldn't do.
>I said Romm's Vilna is Sephardic, and Koren's is Ashkenazic, even though ironically Lithuania is primarily Ashkenazic, and modern Israel is primarily Sephardic.
>I added that Hudson's Adobe Hebrew is influenced by Sephardic calligraphy, somewhat like Friedlander's Hadasa is rooted in Romm's Vilna, which is also based upon an ancient Sephardic tradition.

>So you are saying Kivun bought their Vilna from Guttman. I thought he was much better than that. You just caused my high regard for him to be lowered. My Vilna is an exact replica of Mr. Romm's based upon an ancient manuscript. Kivun or Guttman's Vilna is just another modern version. And the modern publishers, like Oz V'Hadar. Mr. Romm is likely turning over in his grave.

The Guttman Vilna that came with Dagesh was of course Guttmans. There are other Vilnas out there which Guttman didnt create. I know that Kivun licensed Guttmans Toptype collection. Guttman also sold his fonts to Microsoft. However, if it doesnt say Guttman Vilna and just Vilna, then this isnt Guttmans and perhaps you have a very very old version of Dagesh before they licenced the Toptype library. However, things were a bit of a balagan at Accent/Kivun

I brought up Hadasa, because we were speaking about Koren a"h and your neighbor Narkiss. I reasoned that it we mention great type designers as these two gentlemen, we should also mention an even greater type designer like Friedlander...and that eventually led to Hudson, who was greatly influenced professionally not by Koren not by Narkis but by his true favorie, Friedlander.

If I was Narkiss' neighbor, I would visit him, and suck his brain for everything he knew about fine Hebrew type design.

I dont think that there is any doubt that Henri Friedlander was one of the greatest type designers of our time. I typeset the new Singers Siddur (the Siddur of the UK) in a version of Hadasa (Fontbits) and the fact that Artscroll popularised it with their verison of Hadasa (Masterfont) shows what an amazing typeface it is and only points to the genius of Friedlander.

However, our discussion was about the "correct" positioning of trop. Whether you agree that trop is secondary to nikud (according to the opinion of Koren and Narkiss) or whether you see that nikud and trop to be a unit which can be moved (according to the non-Jewish printers), is a matter of opinion. And of course there are other clever solutions like Harbs. Personally I have always like Korens which I guess is why I accepted a position here recently, but whatever system you follow, we all accept (I hope) that the shva should sit under the foot of the resh and dalet (and not in the middle) and that the trop should not overlap the nikud. This is a programming challenge and this can either be solved by moving the diacritics, either manually or by a script (my system) or by programming the font (ultimately the best, but most expensive way).

Yes in the States. However, in Israel, Koren is by far the most popular typeface based on the number of illegal renditions of it :-)

Seriously Koren is regarding in Israel as being the most accurate and the most beautiful Bible. Academics dont like certain things in it (they prefer Breuer), but the religious establishment loves it which is why in Bnei Brak they will only buy our Tanakh but wont touch our treif siddur (it has the prayer for the state of Israel in it)

>To be an excellant typesetter, you do not need to "do" the subject matter you're typesetting.

I agree, however in the case of Hebrew fonts look at Microsoft. They have a version of Vilna with trop but you cant have trop after a chaf sofi with a kamatz. They built opentype tables which were just wrong because they dont understand how a Bible is typeset (never mind ktiv and kri).

I typeset stuff in Arabic which I dont understand, however, I think I would do a better job if I did since I would then know certain rules like you cant have "and" at the end of a line (or is it at the beginning, I forget), but since I dont recognise the word for "and" in Arabic, I ignore it. I think you will do a better job if you understand better what you do. Perhaps not the end of the world when typesetting instructions for some product in Arabic, but for some products, I think it is important.

Artscroll popularised [Friedlander's Hadasa] with their version of Hadasa (Masterfont)

I don't believe you just said that. I thought ArtScroll it from Guttman; it was orignally on a mini-computer, which I didn't think Tzvika knew to support.

You won't like what I say now. If Masterfont created their version of Hadasa by desecrating the Sabbath, its a mitzvah to burn the results, and to rather use something that did not have Sabbath desecration. That's the halacha.

I could just see it now. A wild bunch of Satmar come from Williamsburg and ArtScroll to the ground. Goodbye, ArtScroll.

However, our discussion was about the "correct" positioning of trop. Whether you agree that trop is secondary to nikud (according to the opinion of Koren and Narkiss) or whether you see that nikud and trop to be a unit which can be moved (according to the non-Jewish printers), is a matter of opinion. And of course there are other clever solutions like Harbs.

This is super fascinating.

It cause me to totally rethink everything. I looked at it before not from that view, but rather from the point of view of design. Now, I have to look at the whole subject this way of subdiving the issues into two approaches, with a third possibility which I assume contains the first two.

the shva should sit under the foot of the resh and dalet (and not in the middle)

Tzvika told me in 1987 or 88 that the shvah or hirik should NOT sit under the bottom tip, so as not to visually confuse the viewer that the letter in question, the reish or dalet, is actually a little, as if no kid ever learned alef bais. And he's making the Koren font.

>It cause me to totally rethink everything. I looked at it before not from that view, but rather from the point of view of design. Now, I have to look at the whole subject this way of subdiving the issues into two approaches, with a third possibility which I assume contains the first two.

Ill let Harbs divulge his system to the world if he so likes. In terms of the Koren system, it assumes that the consonents are primary, the nikud, secondary and the trop, tertiary.

The way that it works is as follows:
1. The nikud is first correctly positioned under the letter.
2. The trop is then correctly positioned with respect to the nikud.

Now, when I say "correctly" that is where the design aspect comes in. For example, how do you position a mercha under the foot of the resh when there is no nikud? And what about the tvir. However, Ill leave that for you to think about.

Then we have to deal with collisions. The Koren system goes as follows:
1. can we nudge the nikud by a small amount to solve the problem. If we can, then great and that is what is done.
2. can we nudge the nikud on the letter and then the nikud on the following letter by a small amount to solve the problem?
3. if we cant do 1. and 2. (ie it would have to be a large amount), then we dont move the nikud at all and we move the trop.
4. sometimes we have to do 1., 2. and 3.

This is a programming challenge and this can either be solved by moving the diacritics, either manually or by a script (my system) or by programming the font (ultimately the best, but most expensive way).

I chose the latter most because my desire is that these fonts should be used to recreate the classic library, preferably in the Romm Vilna design, as in my view there is nothing superior.

>the shva should sit under the foot of the resh and dalet (and not in the middle)
>Tzvika told me in 1987 or 88 that the shvah or hirik should NOT sit under the bottom tip, so as not to visually confuse the viewer that the letter in question, the reish or dalet, is actually a little, as if no kid ever learned alef bais. And he's making the Koren font.

If Zvika told you that then hes wrong wrong wrong.

Zvika drew the Koren font based on the original drawings that we have in the office. He did it according to my and Esther Beers specifications.

He did not, and I have already mentioned this in this thread, program the font. Nor did he decide the correct positioning. This was decided by myself and Esther (well technically it was all decided by Esther since she taught me the system).

Masterfont also has the exclusive licence to sell the Koren font, but again he isnt programming it. Arieh is.

>I chose the latter most because my desire is that these fonts should be used to recreate the classic library, preferably in the Romm Vilna design, as in my view there is nothing superior.

Well so did I for Koren. But many people out there dont have a big budget so they choose the script method which gives the same result but of course means that the positioning is coded into the InDesign file rather than into the font.

HaRav Breuer z"l (check wikipedia for a full article and picture), is widely regarded as the world expert on Tanakh. He was not a fan of Koren to put it mildly.

The Bible editions of Mossad HaRav Kook and Chorev are based on his teaching. There is also a very interesting red Bible which is also based on Breuer but thats a whole other story....

Anyway, although Breuer is accepted by acedemia and the Gush, it hasnt gained full acceptance like Koren did, which is why Koren is bought by everyone from the secular, to the national religous to the charedim.

However, Breuer must not be ignored and our in-house Rav was a student of Breuer.

I agree, however in the case of Hebrew fonts look at Microsoft. They have a version of Vilna with trop but you cant have trop after a chaf sofi with a kamatz. They built opentype tables which were just wrong because they dont understand how a Bible is typeset (never mind ktiv and kri).

I placed nikkud above the baseline, and always placed the taamin below the baseline in chof-sofi and dagesh chof sofi, even though I could not find a precedent. John Hudson then questioned my action by pointing out tthgat there was no tradition to support this decision.

Koren didn't do this, and inconsistantly places the nikkud sometimes abover the baseline, and sometime below the baseline without any rule or logic. My positioning had rhyme and reason. Perhaps I was arrogant in my making a decision, or perhaps G-d agrees with me, and Koren made a blunder.

I never thought of it. I could build it into the font. Plus John has every appearance of anything in a database. So thefont can automatical switch appearance based upon the context or necessity. Do you understand?

I typeset stuff in Arabic which I dont understand, however, I think I would do a better job if I did since I would then know certain rules like you cant have "and" at the end of a line (or is it at the beginning, I forget), but since I dont recognise the word for "and" in Arabic, I ignore it. I think you will do a better job if you understand better what you do. Perhaps not the end of the world when typesetting instructions for some product in Arabic, but for some products, I think it is important.

I agree with you. Sometimes, you're right. :) But I'd take the job anyway, like you did. When I visited Adobe in Palo Alto (remember when, John W.?), I was told by an Adobe manager: "When you have a deadline, you just sh...t the stuff out." :)

>Koren didn't do this, and inconsistantly places the nikkud sometimes abover the baseline,

What? no he doesnt. The nikud is always in the same place below the baseline. He also puts the kamatz and shva on the chaf sofi under the baseline although modern printing always put it higher, but this was done on purpose by him because he believed that this was correct (personally I disagree, but hes dead so I cant argue with him).

> never thought of it. I could build it into the font. Plus John has every appearance of anything in a database. So thefont can automatical switch appearance based upon the context or necessity. Do you understand?

The way that it works is as follows:
1. The nikud is first correctly positioned under the letter.
2. The trop is then correctly positioned with respect to the nikud.

I generally do that, but if things are tight, like under a yuhd vov etc. then I rather arrange things to fit without overlap.

John is working on a way to automatically rearrange nikkud taam and/or meteg in the font.

I think with his database, this can be done automatically whenever a user type a word from Tanach.

In fact, I believe eventually if I had Rabbi Farkash of Yerushalayim in a database, the font would automatically switch shva nas to shva plus the appropriate symbol above, and kometz to komatz gadol etc. and thereby encourage children to learn these important grammatical rules.

Look I dont know what Zvika did in the past nor do I know if his computers date was correct when he created fonts in the past. I only know what he has done for me and I know that he didnt work on Shabbat in the creation of the Koren font. I have follow the principle of assuming that if he did any averos in the past, he has done tshuva now. I think Artscroll must obviously follow the same principle.

Im not sure Im quite so holy as you. I have a problem in shul when davening and following the leyning because of course its all in the Koren font (our shul only allows Koren Chumashim and siddurim) and of course Im there going, oy, the mercha should have been put lower (yes, Im serious).

I know that Mr Koren was famous for his Thursday evening tactic. In Israel Friday isnt a workday and we work Sunday instead. At the end of the day on Thursday, he would collect all the work from every employee and take it home, only to return it on Sunday morning, lest anybody should accidentally come to work on Shabbat and work on the Koren Tanakh. I wonder that happened when they printed Bibles in the past. Probably not.

Anyway, Koren is a shomer shabbat religious company, so dont worry, you dont need to burn our siddurim and chumashim (unless you dont like the mizrachi component).