So lately I have been told by multiple people, inclunding my sister and my mom, that " I don´t have a life " or " I´m not living life ".

Off course my life seems a little unorthodox or uneventful , in comparison to the average worker bee / consumer. I don´t go out to bars or date, I don´t spend a fortune on 5 star luxury vacations to South Africa or Cuba like the rest of my family members does, These days I just live a very quiet life .

Why is it that in the year 2018 , you´re considered insane unless you run around like a chicken with it´s head cut off, rushing from one dopamine fix to the next.

I´m fully aware that in many people´s eyes I´m not contrubuting to the advancement of the species, by not financially supporting a women and some offspring, thus having to be shamed back into place. Unlike women, who get applauded for being strong and independent. ( but enough about feminism and double standards . I wouldn´t want to upset the WHITE KNIGHTS on this forum )

So what actually constitutes a LIFE LIVED ?

Has anyone else on this forum dealt with shaming and insult like this. And why is it that the most hurtful words always come from family members.

If I did, I wouldn’t remember because I don’t generally care. Also varies by country/culture. By default, you’re choosing a less orthodox path by committing to ERE. If it’s the first unorthodox decision you’ve made, maybe the backlash and criticism and hurtful words sting a bit more.

I think a lot of default responses will be re-criticizing the choices of those criticizing you. Along the lines of, “Oh so you don’t want to be 1 medical bill away from homelessness like them?” But just live and let live. Do what makes you happy.

Otherwise, if you find some ring of truth to what they say, then maybe do a little more introspection (?) and make sure your life choices and intentions/desires are as aligned as you think.

if someone is on the path to ERE , it is rather obvious that that person isn´t living an unexamined life, and according to Plato living a life worth living

In a conversation with my parents , they revelead that they didn´t want to retire before 70 , even though they could easily retire early today in their late 40s. According to them , what else should one do with one´s time.
- protestant work ethic and law of jante at it´s finest.

Then again, they believe in god and the whole after life thing, which of course makes this life only a rehearsal.

I find being smart enough to earn good amount of money (and being smart too just manage them well for the next 30 years) much more difficult than any other task from "ERE real life RPG".

(OK, it's tricky, because somebody can say that "Stahlmann, so you don't need so much money if you can accept Spartans' way of life". The answer is: There's some aspects of consumerism I want to enjoy and... on some income level it isn't about having big house in suburbia or exotic vacations 2x per year).

There are somewhere people who you can connect based on your interests. You aren't obliged to spend time with current peers.

I´m fully aware that in many people´s eyes I´m not contrubuting to the advancement of the species, by not financially supporting a women and some offspring, thus having to be shamed back into place. Unlike women, who get applauded for being strong and independent. ( but enough about feminism and double standards . I wouldn´t want to upset the WHITE KNIGHTS on this forum )

Well, I was and I'm and I'll be contrarian, but I found out that... This isn't the way you deliver such messages. If we want present it with fancy lingo: I'd say that being red/black-pilled NPC is still... being NPC.

Last edited by Stahlmann on Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

A life lived is one where you spend your energy securing the future of your grand-children. The fact that the culture blames men who don't wan't to support the system, and praise women who do things that will prevent them from having grand children should lead you to some conclusions about how you are seen by the culture-setters and how you should care about fitting in.
Fortunately, women have a very strong instinct. Women in your familly are woried because youre not on a path to have babies. They wrongly think that a career and consumerism is the best way. But they are right in that you not having baby, is akin to you dying. Think about what kind of father you would like to be (even if you don't see model of fatherhood you find attractive around you), and become a man that could be this kind of father. Then you might attract a sane women.
MGTOW(like you seem to do) is a kind of suicide, so of course your mother and sister will worry about you. You understood that following societie's excpectations sucks. Next step if finding new expectations for the future of your children, and working toward providing it. Maybe only explain your sister that you don't think that a degenerate (don't call it that way, describe specificly) lifestyle will allow you to find any worthy partner, and that you are looking for independance to be able to set your own standard. She might become supportive, and she might rise her expectations for men as well.
Women are not evil, they are just even more afraid than us about not fitting in. Alone, you die, if you are getting away from mainstream, your mom will worry if she doesn't see you fitting in something else. ERE is a great tool to create this something else.
Look up thulean perspective for some inspiration.

Thegreatvoid, how about you live your own life, and stop listening to the complaints of your family? They can complain all they want, you're the one who makes all the decisions. PS. I hope you already have a vasectomy, if not I would first save up for that for even more freedom in the future. Because you are not the person who should be stuck with accidental kids and the alimony requirements that come with that.

Has anyone else on this forum dealt with shaming and insult like this. And why is it that the most hurtful words always come from family members.

Yes, I used to have a blog ...

But family has always been nice except that one time when a family member found my blog and informed me that anticonsumerism was unamerican among other things. I think it's because IRL I keep a low profile about all this ERE stuff. All family members are Wheaton level 0-2 with an average of 0.5. There's generally always a way to explain our behavior in that framework. When asked how I make a living, I just say I live off my savings; I don't talk about investment income or financial independence. I almost always have multiple reasons for doing something, so I just pick the one that they would be most comfortable with. E.g. if they're greenies, I say it's to be more sustainable. If they're young or not into hoarding, I say it's minimalism, and so on.

PS: I do think it has helped significantly that we own a house now. We also make no secret of the fact that we don't have a mortgage on it. That does send some "establishment" signals in that obviously we're not struggling. We're just quirky

Why is it that in the year 2018 , you´re considered insane unless you run around like a chicken with it´s head cut off, rushing from one dopamine fix to the next.

You could check out the book, “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking” by Susan Cain. I am reading it right now and it may provide you with some insights into introversion (which it sounds like you are) in a culture that values extroversion explicitly. There is also a brief chapter on the development of the Culture of Personality (extroversion or fake extroversion) in the early 1900s onwards. I’m reading it as an extrovert striving to grow my inner introvert mainly because in a conversation with DW (an introvert) about our son (and his distant future) where I was like, “well I’d always recommend he just go network in order to find a job instead of necessarily spending 4 years on a degree” and she was like, “…..What if he isn’t like you?”

For some reason that was what propelled me to learn more about introversion so I can relate better to all people, including ‘closet introverts’. Because, I like running around like a chicken with my head cut-off, I find with a bit of planning that’s where I get my flow from (to use a nice buzzword). Just because you think it’s stupid, doesn’t mean it always is, nor does it mean it isn’t a previously planned for head cut-off run.

On the flip side, I do not recommend shaming people into ERE either. Shame is useful as an authority (I use it in teaching sometimes to get people to shut-up while I am lecturing), but in an equal relationship I find it harmful in the long run even though it makes you feel superior in the moment.

Active cognition with environment towards acquisition of enough resources to maintain your structural boundaries and then further acquisition of resources towards replication of information found within your boundaries within other independently boundaried structures. Since you lack the ability to split in half while maintaining structural boundary, generally sexually reproduction or creative meme work or exploration of new realms for cognition would be socially recognized options.

IOW, just tell everyone that you are writing a novel or building a boat.

Well, I've certainly been teased (mostly) or criticized (only by candidates for Mrs iDave v2.0) but nothing that I'd call shaming. Usually I just agree with them (from their perspective it is true enough, I suppose) and keep a wry smile (internal) to myself. What constitutes a life lived? About anything. What constitutes a life well-lived? That's a difficult question that really only you can answer for yourself. IMO it certainly does not require adherence to any particular cultural norms. Just decide what you want for yourself and make your best effort to achieve it. And don't worry if people criticize you for doing that. Either they honestly don't "get it" or they feel a twinge of guilt/shame themselves because they know your approach is smart, but are just not strong enough to do it themselves.

Just decide what you want for yourself and make your best effort to achieve it. And don't worry if people criticize you for doing that. Either they honestly don't "get it" or they feel a twinge of guilt/shame themselves because they know your approach is smart, but are just not strong enough to do it themselves.

When I have received such shaming, it has been from a specific group of people. They can be somewhat relentless about enforcing social norms, and I think it comes down to the fact the same was done to them. It is annoying, but also sort of laughable. Recently I was told I can afford to buy new clothes when I decided to learn how to repair a tear, but honestly, what can they really do to me? The only time this behaviour worries me is when I observe it from a potential partner.

Ok -- I'm going to be honest. Please bear with me and hear me out. I see a lot of myself in your comments so I also recognize my own counter-productive defense mechanisms.

My first reaction is that you seem to be assuming that the motivations of others commenting on your lifestyle are negative while you haven't provided evidence that they are. There's a good chance they love you and want the best for you and what you're experiencing is a 2-way communication issue compounded by very different personal frameworks. It's also entirely possible (and normal) that you're just not very good at accepting and navigating constructive criticism. Now that's not to say that they're necessarily right, but reacting by speaking dismissively of women and religion and referring to your own family as talking to aliens is IMO a sign that you're isolating yourself behind some sort of defensive wall that really has nothing to do with ERE. So set aside the retirement or austerity angle for a moment and think more about how you relate to other people. Most important is to give others the benefit of the doubt. Think of their questions and comments from their perspective under the assumption that they genuinely care about you even if they don't understand you, and you probably won't feel so attacked.

When I was getting close to FI (but not there yet), I remember a few times when outside comments about my lifestyle or perceived work ethic really set me off with an immediate, involuntary negative response. I also remember stressing way too much about how to message my life to others once I hit FI, with lots of screw-ups on my part. The thing is, once I truly internalized the mindset of living your own life and just being happy and confident with who you are, those comments now roll off of me like water and I have no problem smiling and sharing my unique perspective in terms they can appreciate. Rather than immediately feeling defensive, I can clearly communicate what I do that makes me happy and it has nothing to do with working, not working, spending, or not spending.

Once you get to that point, I suspect you'll find that your conversations with others will go a lot more smoothly. For example, my mom no longer asks if I'm ok, as she can see full well from my words and actions that I'm just fine. In fact, now she prefers to talk about how nice it is to pay off debt.

Last edited by Tyler9000 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Life is finite. As a mental exercise think of yourself as an old man with only a few years of life left. What experiences or things would you have done to live a full life by YOUR standards? Time is unrelenting and doesn't care about things left undone. I'll leave you with some quotes from Seneca...

“You live as if you were destined to live forever, no thought of your frailty ever enters your head, of how much time has already gone by you take no heed. You squander time as if you drew from a full and abundant supply, though all the while that day which you bestow on some person or thing is perhaps your last.”

“And so there is no reason for you to think that any man has lived long because he has grey hairs or wrinkles, he has not lived long – he has existed long. For what if you should think that man had had a long voyage who had been caught by a fierce storm as soon as he left harbour, and, swept hither and thither by a succession of winds that raged from different quarters, had been driven in a circle around the same course? Not much voyaging did he have, but much tossing about.”

“It is not that we have so little time but that we lose so much. ... The life we receive is not short but we make it so; we are not ill provided but use what we have wastefully.”

“Life is long, if you know how to use it.”

“The greatest obstacle to living is expectancy, which hangs upon tomorrow and loses today. You are arranging what lies in Fortune’s control, and abandoning what lies in yours. What are you looking at? To what goal are you straining? The whole future lies in uncertainty: live immediately.”

Thank-you for your post Campitor and the collection of impactful quotes it contained. Has me thinking I need to wrap up this Saturday afternoon that I've come into work and go out and enjoy my weekend!

Aside from my parents teasing me a little, I've felt no such experience.
The first reason is our life looks fairly normal and one has to look very closely to understand what we're doing:
Aside from the very few that do know how much money I make (close family and my three closest friends), if you surveyed people that know me and asked them to guess how much I make, I bet most would guess too low
We have a normal looking apartment, only it's smaller
We have a nice car, but it is paid for by my employer and we don't own a second one
Etc etc
We are closer to MMM than ERE in my household, so it's easier to look "normal"

The second reason is that I've always took the teasing as positive recommendations / suggestions.
Around age 24-25 I realized my parents are: 1 smart people and 2 they love me unequivocally and only want the best for me
Same for my closest friends.
So we disagree at times but I always pay attention to what they say and take it constructively, even if I disagree.

As to other people, I have always given around zero effs about their opinion