Officials have not said exactly how many people have been shot or the extent of their injuries. Memorial Hermann Hospital said Life Flight was being sent to the college to pick up at least one patient.

Deputy constables said they have at least one person detained, but have not said if that person is a suspected shooter.

The two victims, we’re told, have suffered multiple gunshot wounds, but were conscious when they arrived at hospitals. Both have been taken into surgery. Medical crews could be seen tending to at least three victims outside buildings on campus. It’s not yet clear how they may have been injured.

Emergency responders are focused in the area around the campus library and cafeteria. Some students could be seen running from the building. There is no official word on the shooter, but officers are searching a wooded area to the north side of campus, apparently looking for a suspect.

At least two students have told Eyewitness News they heard five shots. One girl said sounded as if they occurred outside, in an area between the library and the cafeteria. Other students say they heard gunshots when they were in cafeteria.

Think I need a shower now. Went to check on the Freepers and the conspiracy juice is flowing. Did you know that Democrats are willing to kill multiple people and then commit suicide just to help Obama pass gun control measures?

Re: “students with training and a c.c. could stop this stuff” - are there no guns in Texas?

demigod (38434)
duh, yeah. and it’s against the law to take one on campus.

Nylund (10915)
And as a Texan professor, I hope it stays that way. I say that as a gun owner who spends quite a bit of time at the range. I don’t want to look out into a class and see handguns peaking out from under coats wondering who is “good” and who is “bad.” Right now, it’s pretty easy, I see a gun, the cops take you away. I also really fear a shootout with “good” students and crazy student shooters and what would happen when SWAT showed up. My guess is, anyone holding a gun may fall victim to “shoot em all and let God sort it out,” mentality by the police.

Oh this shit again. I wonder how many of these shooters are feeling spurned on by all the crazy gun paranoia rhetoric coming from the gun lobby these days

Maybe but if anything I think the increased press coverage on the issue (and these incidents) may inspire some copycats. I don’t know if there’s been much of an uptick in shootings or just the press coverage. If you google “shooting” at random times you’ll notice that most of the shootings (mostly in urban, poor areas) still continue regularly with virtually no media coverage but even a minor shooting in a rich area, a college, or a red state gets lots of hype.
Even the gunshow accidents this past weekend happen fairly regularly (about one or two a month) but the increased press coverage lately is different.

“Marxists, Socialists, Liberals and Establishment Republicans will likely find that life in our community is incompatible with their existing ideology and preferred lifestyles,” the project’s website states.

Per the project’s Patriot Agreement, which every would-be resident of the community must agree with in writing, an armed citizenry and a trained militia will also be important parts of life at The Citadel. All residents over 13 must be proficient with both rifle and pistol, and each household will have to provide one “able-bodied Patriot” for once-a-month militia training and support. (In its branding and literature, The Citadel refers often to the idea of the three percent or “the III,” an allusion to the idea that only three percent of the Colonial population participated in the Revolutionary War, a statistic the Anti-Defamation League has called “not particularly accurate.”) Every “able-bodied Patriot of age” within the Citadel will also be required to maintain one AR-15 style semi-automatic rifle, five magazines, and 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

Those who agree to abide by the Patriot Agreement, and want to move to The Citadel, won’t be buying property. Instead, The Citadel will lease property to its residents (the website features a handy Citadel Housing Cost Calculator), with a range of lot sizes and customizable home exteriors available, and the option of living inside or outside the city walls.

KHOU had an interview with an eyewitness to the shooting. From her statement, two students in class got into an argument with each other, who were both armed. One of them shot the other, as well as at least one bystander, one of whom might have been the professor in the classroom.

“Marxists, Socialists, Liberals and Establishment Republicans will likely find that life in our community is incompatible with their existing ideology and preferred lifestyles,” the project’s website states.

KHOU had an interview with an eyewitness to the shooting. From her statement, two students in class got into an argument with each other, who were both armed. One of them shot the other, as well as at least one bystander, one of whom might have been the professor in the classroom.

KHOU had an interview with an eyewitness to the shooting. From her statement, two students in class got into an argument with each other, who were both armed. One of them shot the other, as well as at least one bystander, one of whom might have been the professor in the classroom.

KHOU had an interview with an eyewitness to the shooting. From her statement, two students in class got into an argument with each other, who were both armed. One of them shot the other, as well as at least one bystander, one of whom might have been the professor in the classroom.

Maybe but if anything I think the increased press coverage on the issue (and these incidents) may inspire some copycats. I don’t know if there’s been much of an uptick in shootings or just the press coverage. If you google “shooting” at random times you’ll notice that most of the shootings (mostly in urban, poor areas) still continue regularly with virtually no media coverage but even a minor shooting in a rich area, a college, or a red state gets lots of hype.
Even the gunshow accidents this past weekend happen fairly regularly (about one or two a month) but the increased press coverage lately is different.

KHOU had an interview with an eyewitness to the shooting. From her statement, two students in class got into an argument with each other, who were both armed. One of them shot the other, as well as at least one bystander, one of whom might have been the professor in the classroom.

I told them never to bring up ‘emics’ vs ‘etics’ in Anthro 300 classes.

Maybe but if anything I think the increased press coverage on the issue (and these incidents) may inspire some copycats. I don’t know if there’s been much of an uptick in shootings or just the press coverage. If you google “shooting” at random times you’ll notice that most of the shootings (mostly in urban, poor areas) still continue regularly with virtually no media coverage but even a minor shooting in a rich area, a college, or a red state gets lots of hype.
Even the gunshow accidents this past weekend happen fairly regularly (about one or two a month) but the increased press coverage lately is different.

Call me crazy, but arguing that there’s “too little” coverage of everyday shootings and “too much” of random shootings both converge to make the argument that there’s a very real problem with gun violence in this nation and calls to the media to look away from the problem are avoidance rather than solutions.

KHOU had an interview with an eyewitness to the shooting. From her statement, two students in class got into an argument with each other, who were both armed. One of them shot the other, as well as at least one bystander, one of whom might have been the professor in the classroom.

Call me crazy, but arguing that there’s “too little” coverage of everyday shootings and “too much” of random shootings both converge to make the argument that there’s a very real problem with gun violence in this nation and calls to the media to look away from the problem are avoidance rather than solutions.

There certainly is news coverage of (non-mass shooting) gun violence but it usually appears in local media, not national.

KHOU had an interview with an eyewitness to the shooting. From her statement, two students in class got into an argument with each other, who were both armed. One of them shot the other, as well as at least one bystander, one of whom might have been the professor in the classroom.

Call me crazy, but arguing that there’s “too little” coverage of everyday shootings and “too much” of random shootings both converge to make the argument that there’s a very real problem with gun violence in this nation and calls to the media to look away from the problem are avoidance rather than solutions.

I agree but I think it’s important to realize that the increased press coverage of selected shootings doesn’t represent the reality of the situation. They are motivated by ratings and creating hype, not by a serious discussion of gun violence. Even as I was typing this the newscasters mentioned Sandy Hook even though this shooting (so far) looks completely unrelated on almost every level.

That’s a step in the right direction, but NYS faces a $1.35b deficit, and has to deal with rebuilding from #Sandy and addressing serious infrastructure needs. The money has to come from somewhere - whether it’s adjusting the $135b budget priorities, tax increases (though it will probably be fees and other revenue raisers as opposed to broad tax hikes), and not on spending reductions.

Call me crazy, but arguing that there’s “too little” coverage of everyday shootings and “too much” of random shootings both converge to make the argument that there’s a very real problem with gun violence in this nation and calls to the media to look away from the problem are avoidance rather than solutions.

They don’t have an issues problem. They have a demographics and media coverage issue. (repeat as necessary)
//

I agree but I think it’s important to realize that the increased press coverage of selected shootings doesn’t represent the reality of the situation. They are motivated by ratings and creating hype, not by a serious discussion of gun violence. Even as I was typing this the newscasters mentioned Sandy Hook even though this shooting (so far) looks completely unrelated on almost every level.

I have to respectfully disagree, I think the increased media coverage has stripped the thin veneer that has kept reports of such violence limited to the local level for years. That gun violence is an “urban” problem, with all the dark connotations that word carries, and that the problem is something that should be addressed by cracking down on a certain set of people rather than addressing the prevalence of guns in this nation.

Well, by “polite”, the NRA means “a society where libruls are discreet about what they say, and respectful towards gun-totin’ real Americans. No more high-falutin liberal talk!” If you start to think about the NRA’s dream of a “polite society”, it’s pretty chilling. An “intimidated society” is more like it. Apparently, some people really would prefer this.

I have to respectfully disagree, I think the increased media coverage has stripped the thin veneer that has kept reports of such violence limited to the local level for years. That gun violence is an “urban” problem, with all the dark connotations that word carries, and that the problem is something that should be addressed by cracking down on a certain set of people rather than addressing the prevalence of guns in this nation.

It induces the viewer to look for local answers to a nationwide problem. This is rarely a helpful search.

Well, by “polite”, the NRA means “a society where libruls are discreet about what they say, and respectful towards gun-totin’ real Americans. No more high-falutin liberal talk!” If you start to think about the NRA’s dream of a “polite society”, it’s pretty chilling. An “intimidated society” is more like it. Apparently, some people really would prefer this.

We employ both commissioned police officers, who have the same powers and abilities as any other police officer, as well as non-commissioned security guards. Our security guards are civilian employees that support the police department by providing extra eyes and ears, and who deal with non-police calls for service, allowing the police officers to concentrate on proactive patrol of the campuses. Police officers wear blue shirts and have badges and shoulder emblems that say “police”. Security guards wear white shirts and do not have badges. Their shoulder emblem and their photo ID cards say “Guard”. Police officers carry department-approved handguns, whereas security guards are unarmed.

On today’s “Faith and Freedom” radio broadcast, Matt Barber marked the 40th anniversary of Roe v Wade by declaring that AIDS activists ought to be anti-choice because “there is probably a really good chance that whoever it was that was going to find the cure for AIDS … that that person has already been slaughtered in the womb”:

“When he lists all these denominations and atheists and Buddhists and Muslims it’s like we’re all equal, of equal proportion, and we are not,” Rios said, once again revealing that the AFA does indeed believe that people who do not subscribe to its version of Christianity are inferior and minority rights should be dictated by the whims of the majority.

Federer agreed and said it was part of Obama’s “intentional denigration of the contributions of Judeo-Christian faith in America’s history” and went on to say that “Obama’s been using the bully pulpit to advance Islam.”

Later, Rios mourned that African-American Christians support Obama even though he is working to “usher in a time of godlessness” and is “radically transforming this country” by including an openly gay poet and a gay band contingent in inaugural festivities. She naturally ended by doubting Obama’s Christian faith and patriotism: “Something is terribly wrong and it’s terribly wrong to see this man swear allegiance to the country on the bibles of men who went before him who were men who understood faith and who God was.”

Maybe but if anything I think the increased press coverage on the issue (and these incidents) may inspire some copycats. I don’t know if there’s been much of an uptick in shootings or just the press coverage. If you google “shooting” at random times you’ll notice that most of the shootings (mostly in urban, poor areas) still continue regularly with virtually no media coverage but even a minor shooting in a rich area, a college, or a red state gets lots of hype.
Even the gunshow accidents this past weekend happen fairly regularly (about one or two a month) but the increased press coverage lately is different.

A 5-year-old girl chats up classmates while waiting for the bus after school. The topic: Playing with a Hello Kitty “bubble gun” that, with the flick of a finger, blows bubbles everywhere.

“I’ll shoot you, you shoot me, and we’ll all play together,” the kindergartner says.

The next day, that remark — which was made innocently, according to the lawyer for the girl’s family, who related the story — landed the young central Pennsylvanian child in the principal’s office.

Soon after, she was sent home after being issued a 10-day suspension for a “terroristic threat,” as indicated on the suspension form signed by Mount Carmel Area Elementary School Principal Susan Nestico. That and other documents were provided to CNN by Robin Ficker, the lawyer representing the girl and her mother.

This happens a lot. Very incompetent and insecure people get edgy and overreact for fear of being accused of not reacting enough…

Exactly. School decides kid was “just playing,” takes no action, kid comes to school next day with gun and shoots half a classroom. Now school is liable for not taking action when “warning signs” were present.

There’s lettering on the back of one of those persons jackets CAn’t make it out but could be campus police or security talking to each other

The guy “taking cover” looks to be wearing similar (or the same) clothing to the other two: uniform blue pants and shirt and military style boots. Considering this is a community college, they may be fire fighter/EMS/police trainees.

Using the term “terrorist threat,” is way over the top, a 5 yr old doesn’t even know what a “terroristic threat,” is.

I don’t know, actually. Kid says “my mommy has a gun at home” to other kid in bus line? Other kid tells her parents, parents freak out? There have definitely been incidents of small kids getting hold of their folks’ guns.

Obviously the language is boilerplate, but if that’s how the incident gets reported, how is the school meant to determine what the situation is, absent any other facts?

Fair enough. I just don’t see why this girl should have been suspended.

I know nothing about the case, but maybe the other kid freaked out when the girl told her she was going to shoot her?

I’ve just been through the whole “no, the world isn’t going to end in December” with an otherwise very bright and grounded 8 year-old.

To be honest, the only reason this is news is because (of course, this is America) the parents are suing the school. Just go and see the principal, talk it over, two day suspension, whatever. But no, get the fucking vultures involved.

BTW, for those following the Israeli elections, it looks like Kadima is done. They didn’t reach the threshold for a seat. Sharon’s experiment ends with a whimper.

The big winner? Yair Lapid’s Yesh Atid. Looks like he’s going to manage a caucus of 19 seats. Second largest in Knesset behind Bibi’s Likud block with 31.

With all the other parties, it looks like things are split and Bibi will get opportunity to form new government. He should be able to get to 61 with the usual suspects. I’d be very surprised if he tries to get Lapid to join - workable if they intend to act on the Tal Law.

BTW, for those following the Israeli elections, it looks like Kadima is done. They didn’t reach the threshold for a seat. Sharon’s experiment ends with a whimper.

The big winner? Yair Lapid’s Yesh Atid. Looks like he’s going to manage a caucus of 19 seats. Second largest in Knesset behind Bibi’s Likud block with 31.

With all the other parties, it looks like things are split and Bibi will get opportunity to form new government. He should be able to get to 61 with the usual suspects. I’d be very surprised if he tries to get Lapid to join - workable if they intend to act on the Tal Law.

I haven’t the foggiest clue what you think you just said. As far as I can tell the words are meaningless.

I’ve lost count of the number of parents I’ve run into over the years who don’t care what their kid does at school until the school suspends them. Then they’re raising hell over what right the school has to suspend their kid over something “simple.”

Of course they do. School administrations deliberately choose ridiculous “zero-tolerance” policies precisely so that they won’t have to take responsibility for using their own judgment. Then it escalates to the point where they’re getting law enforcement involved for things like dress code violations and 5 year olds talking about Hello Kitty bubble guns. Once this mentality mixes with NRA-sanctioned armed guards on high school campuses, it’ll eventually come to pass that a fist fight will be answered with gunfire from a school employee, and then the usual gang of idiots will say two things:

1. ‘Nobody could have foreseen this’, and
2. ‘Well they wouldn’t have been shot by the principal if they hadn’t been doing anything wrong!’

I know nothing about the case, but maybe the other kid freaked out when the girl told her she was going to shoot her?

I’ve just been through the whole “no, the world isn’t going to end in December” with an otherwise very bright and grounded 8 year-old.

To be honest, the only reason this is news is because (of course, this is America) the parents are suing the school. Just go and see the principal, talk it over, two day suspension, whatever. But no, get the fucking vultures involved.

All good points. But yeah talking it over would have been the more productive thing then running to the lawyers.

Of course they do. School administrations deliberately choose ridiculous “zero-tolerance” policies precisely so that they won’t have to take responsibility for using their own judgment. Then it escalates to the point where they’re getting law enforcement involved for things like dress code violations and 5 year olds talking about Hello Kitty bubble guns. Once this mentality mixes with NRA-sanctioned armed guards on high school campuses, it’ll eventually come to pass that a fist fight will be answered with gunfire from a school employee, and then the usual gang of idiots will say two things:

1. ‘Nobody could have foreseen this’, and
2. ‘Well they wouldn’t have been shot by the principal if they hadn’t been doing anything wrong!’

Fine, then pass laws to absolve them of liability when they use their judgment and it leads to a shooting anyway. You want them to use their “judgment,” knowing that if they make a bad call, the lawyers will be suing their asses for millions.

I’ve lost count of the number of parents I’ve run into over the years who don’t care what their kid does at school until the school suspends them. Then they’re raising hell over what right the school has to suspend their kid over something “simple.”

Might be the type of “parents” you interact with because the parents I interact with, who I have lost count of, DO care what their kids do at school and they DON’T get suspended.

I’ve lost count of the number of parents I’ve run into over the years who don’t care what their kid does at school until the school suspends them. Then they’re raising hell over what right the school has to suspend their kid over something “simple.”

Agree with you here especially when it comes to something like bullying. Too often we see parents dismiss their children’s bullying as “just kids being kids and the other kid should just man up.”

Fine, then pass laws to absolve them of liability when they use their judgment and it leads to a shooting anyway. You want them to use their “judgment,” knowing that if they make a bad call, the lawyers will be suing their asses for millions.

I work for a higher education institution. We have to do dumb “zero tolerance” things all the time, because if you don’t you’re looking at an enormous lawsuit when some rich kid, and his caffeine-crazed C-level parents, get it into their heads that your “case-by-case” system led to Bobby not getting a fair shake.

That’s the world we live in. Parents who get the lawyers involved for every little thing are just the other side of the “zero tolerance” game.

Rep. James Lankford (R-OK), the fifth-ranking House Republican, laid the blame for gun violence at the feet of an unusual suspect: the children of “welfare moms” who commit fraud.

In a meeting with constituents earlier this month in Oklahoma City, a woman asked the GOP congressman what he was doing to combat all the children who were committing gun violence because they were high on psychotropic drugs. Lankford replied that he “agree[s] with that” and then went on to blame Social Security disability fraud for the rash of gun violence around the country. “Quite frankly some of the overmedication of kids are because welfare moms want to get additional benefits,”

I’m saying that the schools should “suck it up” and take the risk of having good governance and rules. It’s a risk? Live with the risk, learn to manage the risk without compromising the way you treat children. Or lobby the parents, or lobby the government.

I’m saying that the schools should “suck it up” and take the risk of having good governance and rules. It’s a risk? Live with the risk, learn to manage the risk without compromising the way you treat children. Or lobby the parents, or lobby the government.

Your current solution isn’t acceptable.

Why isn’t it acceptable? Because you’re not the one facing multi-million dollar lawsuits?

First, those who choose to place their same-sex attraction at the center of their identity are “treated like anyone else under the law.” They are perfectly free to participate in the sexually complementary institution of marriage. They choose not to. They are not asking to be treated equally. They are demanding to be treated specially. They want the unilateral right to jettison the central defining feature of marriage (i.e. sexual complementarity) — something, by the way, that polygamists, polyamorists, “minor-attracted persons,” and sibling-lovers are not permitted to do.

I thought the central feature of marriage was sharing your life with the person you love.

It’s entirely possible the parents did try other things before calling an attorney. Sometimes that’s the ONLY thing an administrator will take the time to respond to.

As my son’s special education advocate, navigating the school system for 13 yrs,(spending as much time in an actual school building as many school employees) I can tell you that there’s a lot wrong with zero tolerance, let alone all the other issues that exist in today’s system. You’d be amazed the priorities admins have that have NOTHING to do with education.

I’m saying that the schools should “suck it up” and take the risk of having good governance and rules. It’s a risk? Live with the risk, learn to manage the risk without compromising the way you treat children. Or lobby the parents, or lobby the government.

Your current solution isn’t acceptable.

“Learn to manage the risk?” What do you think zero-tolerance policies are for? They’re for managing risk in a way that has been deemed appropriate.

My current solution is very acceptable to the regents of my institution, BTW, because they’re the ones who approve it.

Obviously in an ideal world we would have sane gun laws and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

It’s not acceptable to tell 7 year olds to “suck it up” for your incompetent rules.

Grow up. The kid was eventually going to be suspended for two days, after having it explained to her that it’s not OK to joke about shooting people. Big deal, except that obviously it’s time for the lawyers to cash in.

If the principal at my school told me my kid would be suspended for two days because of some dumb rule, I would most likely “suck it up” because that’s the cost of living in society and having people educate your kids for a pretty unimpressive wage packet.

Again, in a country with sane gun laws, this wouldn’t be a problem. But we don’t live in that country, we live in America, where every so often a five year old kills another five year old with the home protection device.

EVERY decision made in the face of cowardly fear of lawsuits was an over-the-top draconian mistake. EVERY one of the compromised what a school should be

I agree, but the problem(s) lie not with the schools, but with those parents that (as TP originally stated) any time little “Johnny” or “Mary” got disciplined the parent would be running off to the family lawyer looking for ,,,, (fill in the blank)

Hence, blanket “zero tolerance” rules came into effect so the schools can now say “sorry Mrs J, but ,,,,”

I meant “manage risk” by things like:
1) buying insurance
2) educating the parents as to how policies work so that they won’t sue
3) paying money to keep lawyers on retainer

you know, the things you can do to manage the risk without turning the school into a Kafkaesk nightmare.

bwa-hahahahaha. Oh, dear, let me wipe the tears from my eyes.

Schools buy insurance. it is already expensive. it would be more expensive to manage this. Perhaps you’ve noticed that people have this thing against paying taxes.

Educating the parents… oh, great goo, how I wish. Every school I know sends home its policies with the students (see student handbook). They’re invited to an opening session where the rules are discussed. If the parents won’t read and won’t come, how do you intend to educate them?

Retain attorneys - they do, already. See insurance.

Do the schools overdo it? yes. But there are multiple reasons they go the zero-tolerance, and an awful lot of them amount to “best we can do with the restrictions and funding we’ve got.”

Oh yes. My school district, which is currently debating whether to keep libraries open for half days only or for three full days a week, should totally hire some hotshot lawyers so that they can then spend some extra time debating each minor disciplinary case before reaching a sensitive and balanced decision.

Or, people could accept that sometimes you get a slightly bum deal.

Two day suspension! It’s not exactly the end of the world. And you get to explain to kids that it’s never OK to shoot someone, even if it’s for pretend.

“We as social conservatives do not agree with the president’s attempt to link the modern homosexual movement with the women’s rights movement or the civil rights movement for African Americans,” Sprigg insisted. “The irony is that homosexuals already have all the same civil rights as anyone else.”

He continued: “But the fact that all people are created equal as individuals does not mean that all sexual behavior is equal or that personal relationships have an equal value to society at large, that serve the same public interests.”

It’s the dark side of American libertarianism/exceptionalism. Because people feel that they should always get a “fair deal” (by which they mean no-one else should be getting a deal that could possibly be interpreted as being better than theirs), institutions have to basically come up with iron laws, no exceptions, for everything. Because otherwise you get sued. As is happening in this case.

I’m exaggerating (a little) but having lived in Europe as well, it’s quite striking that people there, although they’ll grumble to friends and colleagues if they feel they’re not getting their fair shake, will be much more accepting and less likely to lodge formal complaints. As a consequence, institutions generally have more latitude to make case-by-case judgements on situations as they arise.

Oh yes. My school district, which is currently debating whether to keep libraries open for half days only or for three full days a week

yes we need to fund schools a lot better. I feel for you.

Or, people could accept that sometimes you get a slightly bum deal.

You’re still defending a cowardly lack of decision that actually posed no risk. That school made itself a laughing stock to its students and to us. And by extension they made YOUR school a laughing stock, and they made YOU a laughing stock.

These things make it impossible for students to have any respect for you or your school or take your word for anything. You lose your credibility and you can’t get it back with everyone.

Two day suspension! It’s not exactly the end of the world. And you get to explain to kids that it’s never OK to shoot someone, even if it’s for pretend.

And that’s SO stupid. Never OK to shoot bubbles? God, you take all of the fun out of life. You’re teaching kids to be assholes.

And you’ll lose the respect of even 7 year olds if they’re intelligent enough. And some of the rest of them will learn to be dogmatic assholes like you which is a lot worse.

Legislation to allow gay and lesbian couples to marry in Rhode Island is heading to a debate and vote in the state House of Representatives.

A House committee voted unanimously Tuesday to forward the legislation to the full House, which is expected to consider it on Thursday.

Advocates for same-sex marriage say they expect the bill to pass the House but they’re less confident about its chances in the Senate. Same-sex marriage legislation has been introduced in Rhode Island for years, but has never made it a vote in either legislative chamber.

Two years ago, lawmakers approved civil unions for same-sex couples after it became apparent gay marriage would not pass the Senate.

Nine states and Washington, D.C., allow same-sex marriage. Rhode Island is the only New England state without same-sex marriage.

How about if our schools taught by example that the adult world can work, can be reasonable. How about if we teach children that adults can be competent. Imagine if our schools just did what works the best.

Chaffee will sign that into law. If I recall correctly, he was the first prominent Republican to come out in favor of gay marriage even before Cheney did. Anyhow, totally expect their to be a lot of noise opposition to this given that RI is heavily Catholic but this will pass and life will go on and we won’t turn into a nation without morals.

How about if our schools taught by example that the adult world can work, can be reasonable. How about if we teach children that adults can be competent. Imagine if our schools just did what works the best.

We (my institution) tried that, in a pretty famous case.

We got taken to court and lost. Because of the lawyers, and people’s unwillingness to accept that our reasonable decisions were, in fact, reasonable.

should totally hire some hotshot lawyers so that they can then spend some extra time debating each minor disciplinary case before reaching a sensitive and balanced decision.

I’ve had dealings with school systems from Massachusetts to New Hampshire to Maine to North Carolina to Georgia and each and every one of them have lawyers on staff (either the citys or counts school admin offices)

It’s the dark side of American libertarianism/exceptionalism. Because people feel that they should always get a “fair deal” (by which they mean no-one else should be getting a deal that could possibly be interpreted as being better than theirs), institutions have to basically come up with iron laws, no exceptions, for everything. Because otherwise you get sued. As is happening in this case.

I’m exaggerating (a little) but having lived in Europe as well, it’s quite striking that people there, although they’ll grumble to friends and colleagues if they feel they’re not getting their fair shake, will be much more accepting and less likely to lodge formal complaints. As a consequence, institutions generally have more latitude to make case-by-case judgements on situations as they arise.

I grew up in Canada. Canadians don’t get angry the way Americans do.

Americans seem a bit… nuts.

In Canada we switched from the British version of the Imperial system to the Metric system when I was a child. No big snags.

There’s not much to tell. We came up with a way of making certain administrative decisions that would affect some students differently than others, on a case-by-case basis. Very thoughtfully implemented.

So, inevitably, we got taken to court by Bobby McRich, because it was so very unfair to him.

Thus, henceforth, nice simple rules that require no thinking about how to implement them.

There’s not much to tell. We came up with a way of making certain administrative decisions that would affect some students differently than others, on a case-by-case basis. Very thoughtfully implemented.

So, inevitably, we got taken to court by Bobby McRich, because it was so very unfair to him.

Thus, henceforth, nice simple rules that require no thinking about how to implement them.

Speaking of which, I have to go and implement some of said rules now. Laters all.

You should at least tell us what sort of decisions or give us a real name instead of “McRich” so we can look it up ourselves.

I’m not keen to give you the exact ref because it will very obviously reveal where I work*. Suffice to say if you worked in higher ed (or were generally interested in higher ed issues) you would by now know to 90% certainty what I’m talking about.

How about if our schools taught by example that the adult world can work, can be reasonable. How about if we teach children that adults can be competent. Imagine if our schools just did what works the best.

Look at it this way, dude. You want the schools protecting students rights to free expression and other stuff right up to the line. The problem with doing that is, by taking things up to the line, you are going to get a certain number of court cases ruled against you. Until we budget for that, asking our schools to do that is silly.

We have a lot of people who do not understand what rules are supposed to do, they just memorize the letter of them them and then set out to apply them wherever they find it useful towards promoting their careers.

This poor little girl with her bubble gun most likely got caught up in one of those situations.

To the extent that tax payers and the politicians pandering to them short changed the schools they represent our culture’s irresponsibility.

To the extent that our government should have made school costs less elastic and NOT allowed important elements like this be thrown out to save money, they represent our cowardice and bureaucratic incompetence.

They shouldn’t have the budget for it. The last thing we need to spend more money on in schools is insurance.

How about, like, teachers?

Uhm they should have the money to do the best job they can without being messed with by nuts. If that requires lawyers then that requires lawyers. Just because more teachers are needed too doesn’t mean that the former isn’t also needed.

Uhm they should have the money to do the best job they can without being messed with by nuts. If that requires lawyers then that requires lawyers. Just because more teachers are needed too doesn’t mean that the former isn’t also needed.

It sounds like your solution is similar to the NRA’s, except that instead of an armed guard in every classroom, you want a lawyer in every classroom.

Uhm they should have the money to do the best job they can without being messed with by nuts. If that requires lawyers then that requires lawyers. Just because more teachers are needed too doesn’t mean that the former isn’t also needed.

Adult conversations require an understanding of prioritization and the unlikelihood of getting everything one desires.

Exactly. School decides kid was “just playing,” takes no action, kid comes to school next day with gun and shoots half a classroom. Now school is liable for not taking action when “warning signs” were present.

The reason you have zero tolerance policies is because you have learned that you cannot trust people in positions of authority to be able to effectively reason and exercise what one would call good judgement. So, you remove as much discretion as you can and force them to follow policy. It backfires sometimes because even a well written rule will be wrongly applied at times.

As opposed to your version of things which is pretty much rainbows, unicorns, and pots of gold. You’re pretty much asking for an entire system to be changed, including gobs of money going to the schools for something that doesn’t actually pertain to what the school is supposed to be doing, which is teach.

Okay buddy. Count the number of posts you’ve made on this, look at your all-caps, and look at how often you’re appealing to principle and ideals and being moralistic, and how often the people responding to you are talking about pragmatic reality.

What would happen if a 7 year old joked about a stink bomb in line at the airport?

It gets child and accompanying adults pulled into some small rooms for intimate discussions with law enforcement. Because daddy and mommy (or uncle or whomever) may have just told little Susie it’s a stink bomb, a practical joke, when it’s actually a bit more than that.

You seem like a nice guy but you get really hung up on not being able to back down, like your whole “Islam is inherently more dangerous than Christanity because they have to take it literally!” screed, which not even learning that that was an argument from Robert Spencer and the other lunatics would dissuade you from. I believe you still hold onto that amusing position.

Nobody’s excusing the system. People are excusing choices that are made within the context of the system, where all choices are bad because the real solution is exterior to the system— it involves more funding, or reforming the way we deal with lawsuits and schools, or mass societal change.

Nobody’s excusing the system. People are excusing choices that are made within the context of the system, where all choices are bad because the real solution is exterior to the system— it involves more funding, or reforming the way we deal with lawsuits and schools, or mass societal change.

I agree they get pulled out of line. But I think if the authorities were convinced during the questioning that little Johnny was really talking about a stink bomb he’d get a lecture and sent on his way. Little Suzie in this case still gets a 2 day suspension for bubble gun talk.

Nobody’s excusing the system. People are excusing choices that are made within the context of the system, where all choices are bad because the real solution is exterior to the system— it involves more funding, or reforming the way we deal with lawsuits and schools, or mass societal change.

Funny thing, I listed lots of those external solutions to be met with derision.

A bad system is a bad system. And it’s the fault of everyone down the line for letting it get that bad.

Funny thing, I listed lots of those external solutions to be met with derision.

No, you weren’t. You were met with derision for thinking that because those would be solutions, that means that the way that teachers and administrators act now should change.

A bad system is a bad system. And it’s the fault of everyone down the line for letting it get that bad.

What does whose fault it is have to do with anything? You’re making an argument that zero-tolerance policies are causative. They are reinforcing, I’d agree, but they’re not causative, they came about because of lawsuits and societal pressure. Instead of arguing against the zero-tolerance policies as though they’re the cause, correctly recognize them as a symptom.

By the way, when you say you’re going to leave, actually leave, or it makes you look silly. Or at least make a reasonably good joke about how you’re sticking around.

I agree they get pulled out of line. But I think if the authorities were convinced during the questioning that little Johnny was really talking about a stink bomb he’d get a lecture and sent on his way. Little Suzie in this case still gets a 2 day suspension for bubble gun talk.

You’re comparing apples and oranges, though. TSA policies aren’t the same as school policies.

(Also, we don’t know the full story, only what the parents’ lawyer has told media.)

Stabby, if anything, your little rant here is an excellent demonstration of why zero-tolerance rules exist in the first place. Instead of accepting that this kid was getting the same treatment as everyone else, you’re railing away that the school is wrong and they should change the rules to accommodate this one little girl. You even agree with the parents suing the school for not willing to back down.

Congratulations, you’ve rather nicely demonstrated just how unreasonable people can be when someone else disciplines their child.

Naw, I just always feel that way about Obdicut’s attitude. And people pull nasty bullshit that’s outside the channel of the argument I respond in kind. The reality is that he was rude first, he just didn’t use swear words.

And I don’t intend to talk to him more, except when a point is at stake. Him I don’t care about, the point I do.

You’re just pretending you don’t see that “same as everyone else” does not equal reasonable, good or competent.

and you’re pretending so that you can make a personal taunt. Are you sure you’re mature enough to teach kids?

I’m not pretending anything and I don’t teach. I’m a realist and what I realistically see is when a school can be sued for every judgment call it makes, then avoiding judgment calls is the only realistic option. Saying “Well, just put a lot of money aside for stupid parents” is not a realistic option.

A) We’re going to tax to the level where we can afford that expenditure

B) The rights of children are important to us (our society really, at the moment, is fucking terrible on children’s rights)

C) We can find and hire enough competent administrators to make extremely tricky choices when it comes to stuff like free-expression vs. classroom learning and maintaining discipline on a case-by-case basis.

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