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here is great example of how broken our health care system is... to buy a PET scanner (we all should be getting pet scans in a sane med system once every 3 years at least to catch cancer but like so much with usa its all about money or profits for a few

friend of mine works for PET scan company, Dr. refer patients to get scan, max insurance pays is $3,900. But the costs for everything, the building the loan on the PET scan machine, all the employees, the accounting, the taxes, the electricity EVERYTHING costs the company $320 in costs per scan....

THAT IS $3,580 PROFIT FOR EVERY SCAN

if this was inside a universal health care system

then we would not have thieves robbing us

the Dr.s own the PET scan company that they refer patients too... that alone that you have to go waste one day of life to see dr. to get refered to another dr. owned pet scan to spend another 4 hours is an abuse of power

if we are getting all these cancers then we should all be gettting PET scans

for dang $320 we could afford to do it out of pocket almost

this is example of the evil in the health care system

and the dr. group that owns it owns dozens of PET scaners all over state

While I could not agree more that the US Health Care System could use some revamping, I have to disagree with the position that everyone should have a PET scan every 3 years. There is a distinct danger in overusing medical technology. False positive test results would result in untold anguish and unnecessary additional cost in follow ups. One always has to look at the costs and benefits (I'm not really referring to money here) in using technology widely as a screening device. There could be so many other unintended consequences -- people sue over false test results, it happens all the time. Lawsuits are one factor in the high costs of US health care (left out of the costs listed in the per scan cost). That cost actually seems very low to me and I have a hard time believing that insurance companies would allow that large a discrepancy to exist, but I can't refute it with facts -- just my sense of it.

So, yes things need to change, but things are as simple as this thread implies.

great example of how broken our health care system is.if this was inside a universal health care system

then we would not have thieves robbing us

the Dr.s own the PET scan company that they refer patients too... that alone that you have to go waste one day of life to see dr. to get refered to another dr. owned pet scan to spend another 4 hours is an abuse of power

if we are getting all these cancers then we should all be gettting PET scans

this is example of the evil in the health care system

and the dr. group that owns it owns dozens of PET scaners all over state

OH, I get is now, you are a conspiracy theorist.

Logged

I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

These numbers and the entire premise have a few flaws.The tags (Radiopharmaceuticals) injected are harmful. PET for routine screening is not a good idea.

The numbers you quote leave out so many things I can't even begin to get them all. Here are a few.A maintainace contract on the machine is about $200,000 a year.You've left out all the ancillary equipment needed to use the machine. A short list includes PACS, HIS/RIS, the highspeed network needed to support these devices and the hot lab. Next lets add in the cost of maintaining that equipment and the cost of storing all the hard copy films produced by the PET, and the soft copy archives. There's also the cost of film and the laser printer. Even small hospitals spend as much as 1,000,000 per year in film and associated costs.

Next we need to add in costs like malpractice, the 250,000 in student loans the doc has, and referral fees etc. There are also cost of doing business items like registration of radiopharmaceuticals and radiation producing equipment and the administrative costs for these things. The medical physicist that certifies your machine and all the "optional" certifications like ACR and JCHO.

You've also left out the CON (Certificate of Need) that most states require. This wonderful bit of legislation restricts one from purchasing certain equipment with out this certificate. There are significant costs associated with this to include a feasibility study.

You also quote maximum reimbursement not average reimbursement.

Regarding self referral, I am not aware of a single state that allows this, and if you think competing doc's wouldn't turn them in you've lost your mind. The doc's are in competition and usually do not play well together.

Let me see, a PET scanner takes two years to set up at 4.2 million, 1 million just for the upkeep on the scanner per year. Then you have to have the radioactive tracers at what price?? Then you have hazardous material waste to dispose of at what cost? So if you really look at the price it isn't that much. That is with out the techs and the Drs. I don't think they they are making the profit you think they are making.

You're a little over priced Rod. I can install a PET in about a week assuming the facility is completely ready. Maintainance is right at 200,000 for just the PET. Figure double for the newer PET/CT's that do both PET and CT with one device and merge the images.

The CON on the other hand can take a couple years and cost another million.

Grinchhttp://www.ecri.org.uk/ct_pet_tech.htm Here is one for 3 million not counting all the lights and whistles. The specs of the room for the machine. I was stunned to see that in the US there are only 3.5 scanners per 1 million people. Still they are not making a huge profit off of it. I don't think to many small hospitals around could even afford those. Sure we can go to our county hospital and get a CT or an MRI scan done. But usually when they want better scans they send us to one of the University Hospitals.

I stand by the numbers. This is truth including all costs mentioned above.

As a stand alone biz that just does PET scans in volume I stand by my numbers. All those costs you mentioned above were included in the costs that I was reporting. The reason the insurance companies go along is because the original price was for a PET scanner when they cost who know $10 million so now they are way down in price.

The cost of a million dollar PET scanner is paid for by a bank and the Business only pays a monthly mortgage to the bank of say $5,000 a month for the scanner. Then they get a bunch of dr.s to refer biz there and in many cases the Drs are all owners of the the pet scan company. A PET SCANNER IS ONLY A $5,000 a month COST FOR for the BUSINESS.

Regarding harmful effects, ok perhaps every 3 years is too often but i think every 5 or 7 years

Many wealthy people are flying to Thailand to get these for $1200 so there is a fairer price for you.

The numbers were accurate provided by a sharp businessman who works with all the profits from the business.

I didnt create the rip -off which is American health care,

perhaps i am a communist or something but the Drs in cuba work entirely well for $50 per month and that includes surgeons. They do get a nicer house though.

i guess i am sick of the money greed

This is completely unrelated but i was in a Dr.s house in the South, he was a health south radiologist

he had a 40,000 sq ft house

things are completely ridiculouscan no one see this but me

there are 4 hiv aids people who died in S. Carolina while the republicans in that state got richer and richer

there are 15 to 25 aids/hiv people dying per day in USA today now

the disease would have been solved by now if the money wasted in Iraq would have been spent on research

You always know a doctor that is the best in the area of whatever we're talking about. It's either a best friend or you know the best doctor that has worked on whatever topic we're talking about, he happens to either be your best friend or you had a conversation with him on the phone last week. You seem to have phone conversations with the highest doctors in the country, and you always have a friend that know this and that whatever the subject can be.

bimazek, I don't have any idea or does anyone else when you start posting, where you are getting your information. It's fine if you want to say, "That is your opinion." But don't say it's fact when it's not. Our hospital has a new GE scanner and it is owned and operated by the hospital which is a county hospital. No private business owns that equipment. So wherever you are getting your data it's flawed.

One business with one PET scanner. Does 20 PET scans a day 7 days a week, I think that is low. Billing insurance $3,900 per scan. That is $28,470,000 revenue per year from one PET scanner. Yes seventeen years ago when the pet scanner first hit the market and the cost was tens of millions perhaps then the $3,900 per scan price was justified. COSTS If the cost for all services is $2,500,000. This includes all the employees, the accounting, the taxes, the electricity EVERYTHING costs the company $320 in costs per scan! This includes the maintainace contract on the machine about $200,000 a year. this includes all ancillary equipment PACS, HIS/RIS, the highspeed network hot lab. cost of storing all the hard copy films produced by the PET, and the soft copy archives. There's also the cost of film and the laser printer say 1,000,000 per year in film and associated costs, certifications like ACR and JCHO. I think that all these costs could easily fit below the $2,500,000 and maximum $3,500,000.

Which still leaves a $3,500 profit on every scan.

$28,470,000 revenue p 3,500,000 costs

$25,000,000 profit per year

I am sure the first five years after the pet scanner came out the profit margin was much much less, say 25%

Regarding my personally talking to many researchers. I just pick up the phone and call Harvard and Univ or Montreal and the top virologist in the Pacific northwest. In researching articles that I write or other research.

I stand by what is written. There is no way to deny the fact that insurance execs are getting rich, some types of Dr.s are getting rich and HMO execs are getting rich and republicans are getting super rich

and 15 to 25 HIV people are dying a day in usa

and 100 are being newly infected per day in usa

and Dr.s are billing way to much for 5 min. consults so that Kaiser execs or HMO exec can make $5,000,000 per year in bonuses and stock options and salary on top of all the travel.

The exact same pet scan is $1200 all over the world no matter what the currency and those clinics are still making a profit too.

The point is the relentless greed and gouging of prices by med system.

I agree the lawsuits should be shut down to a great degree.

It is never popular to speak the truth.

dont complain to me call some investigative reporter and get them to investigate

Grinchhttp://www.ecri.org.uk/ct_pet_tech.htm Here is one for 3 million not counting all the lights and whistles. The specs of the room for the machine. I was stunned to see that in the US there are only 3.5 scanners per 1 million people. Still they are not making a huge profit off of it. I don't think to many small hospitals around could even afford those. Sure we can go to our county hospital and get a CT or an MRI scan done. But usually when they want better scans they send us to one of the University Hospitals.

3 million is for a PET/CT the ECRI article shows a stand alone for about a million. Pretty close to what I quoted. Don't forget there are usually a few "extras" built into the budget. The budget is what gets reported to organizations like ECRI. I'll check the FDA registration site tomorrow for Scanners per capita 3.5 sounds low. Before I changed jobs in 2005 I personally installed 3 between Jan -Aug. in Northern New England. Off the top of my head I can think of 4 in New Hampshire alone.

Bimazek,

Would you please provide me the name of the site that can do 20 patients in a 24 hour period and do so for under $400 per? I will make enough to retire in two years by simply consulting with facilities like Dana Farber and Dartmouth Hitchcock. I'd also be willing to find investors to open my own facility and charge only $2900 per patient. Any one would be willing to split the difference and make 9 M a year while I pocket the other half or what ever the math equates to using your logic.