We must start to learn how to ignore. We are only feeding power to the Ignorant. Our aggravation, annoyance, and anger are what these people want. Quit responding And posting to them. Boredom will soon set in they will grow weak and start to slowly crawl away. We can sit back and laugh at the old posts, sbm.org website, the foolishness of a few people that will not be taken seriously by anybody. The people of the Black Rock Desert Love us, I know this... some depend on us.

Like the ranter at the port o let

"If it's shit put it in the toilet, if it's trash take it home, I want to be here if you don't Don't bring your shity trash to our playa".

Thanks!

Knothing is seperate. Everything is One.
Illusion blinds us. Understanding is enlightenment.
James

enthropic wrote:We must start to learn how to ignore. We are only feeding power to the Ignorant. Our aggravation, annoyance, and anger are what these people want. Quit responding And posting to them. Boredom will soon set in they will grow weak and start to slowly crawl away. We can sit back and laugh at the old posts, sbm.org website, the foolishness of a few people that will not be taken seriously by anybody. The people of the Black Rock Desert Love us, I know this... some depend on us.

Like the ranter at the port o let

"If it's shit put it in the toilet, if it's trash take it home, I want to be here if you don't Don't bring your shity trash to our playa".

Thanks!

Is there a possibillity of a further decription of :

"If it's shit put it in the toilet, if it's trash take it home, I want to be here if you don't Don't bring your shity trash to our playa".

I think it would make things more concrete, descreet and more of a descriptive understanding.

You don't understand? maby I could have been more clear. All that I have seen on the boards lately is trash and crap. We all know what it is I'm referring to. I dont distinguish between the eplaya and the real thing. There is a place for shit and trash. and its not on this site.

Now we can egg on, try to make our points, argue, and clown. Yet we are only inviting more filth and pestulace.

Most of us know how the troll game works, and yeah, we're feeding the troll. But I give this one credit, he does have some kernels of truth in his postings to work with unlike some of the other trolls that have circulated through here. In particular he hit one of my gripes this year which was the excessive trash along 447 from Gerlach to I-80. I don't think the ORG should be forced to clean it up, but I feel there's a need for more awareness of the problem and how it doesn't exactly boost local support for BM which is critical to the event's survival.

In any event most of us are working with those kernels of truth and trying to overlook some of the more annoying posting habits that have been along for the ride. As for the frog pond debate when I take the STOP argument and factor in Badger's info, I really feel it's much ado about nothing. If others want to get pulled into that debate so be it. But I won't hesitate to say it's overkill to talk about VOC / particulate emissions from the water tankers. That's outside the scope of most environmentalists that will be working on BM issues and requires a state level approach to control it in conjunction with the EPA. So I consider that discussion to be DOA.

In any event I always have hope that behavior some feel is outlandish can be moderated through community involvement and feedback. It's been proven that banishment doesn't work, a look at the current state of America's prison system will demonstrate that fact. It takes engagement, rehabilitation, and a desire to change the core behaviors to effect changes vs. just pushing someone outside. I know there are entire websites out there devoted to the art of trolling and I am flying in the face of their advice. But....I hold out hope that this person or persons with their radical views can be made part of the community. And so instead of lashing out and using a range of expletives to express my frustration with some of his points, I'm taking the engagement approach. I hope others do the same or a mix of the two approaches. And above all else I hope they visit the site and at least give it a critical look. You might not agree with him and consider him a threat to the event you love. But it's always good to know what the opposition is up to. For that reason alone he's worth a few minutes of time.

i have thousands of pages of docuemnts(FOIA request from BLM) from every group that has been at blackrock before burning man came to town and they all (well 90%) hate burning man.
what it does to the enviroment
how it degrades the lake bed (pliya serpents) one day I suspect a land sailor will get seriosuly hurt or killed becuase of them.

etc.... i can go on for days

yeah maybe the shops owners in gerlach and empirelike yah. but the rest of them? what do they get out of it.
the rich get richer (top 5%)

Enough. Even the best argument doesn't justify cross posting to so many different threads. I sent the admins a request to consolidate the threads into one place, preferably located in General Discussion. We'll see if that can be done.

As for the FOIA documents, instead of posting that you have them, how about getting them on the website so they can support your arguments? I want to see what you are talking about. Back up your claims. Or since I'm from Missouri, SHOW ME.

so soon some answers will be givenfrom scanned emails from BLM and BMORG people

Tancorix wrote:Enough. Even the best argument doesn't justify cross posting to so many different threads. I sent the admins a request to consolidate the threads into one place, preferably located in General Discussion. We'll see if that can be done.

As for the FOIA documents, instead of posting that you have them, how about getting them on the website so they can support your arguments? I want to see what you are talking about. Back up your claims. Or since I'm from Missouri, SHOW ME.

http://www.stopburningman.org has been updated with a half dozen scans of internal BLM memos, as well as the content of a letter from 2 ecologists who, in 2000, were calling for the same kind of environmental review that we are proposing. Their letter is backed up with numerous scientific publications and citations (all there for you to go look up and see for yourself).

Also of note are contradictions about the validity of the cleanup standard (in summer 2003 it was admitted to be arbitrary) in a 2001 memo by the originator of the standard. It was said to be scientific (odd?) and yet likely in need of review. It was suggested, by the originator, that the site might not actually be clean when cleanliness is based on the transect standard.

There is another good memo debunking a good chunk of PR spin that Marian Goodell gave the press in an interview for ReasonOnline (link is at the site) -- the debunking is from a BLM internal memo to the author of the article.

So you and your cohorts, puppets, friends, or whatever have made your point a couple of dozen times now. We, as Burners, aren't environmentally perfect and neither is the LLC. We will all try to do better. So how about just going away now. Your self-rightousnous makes me want to puke.

que.f.o. wrote:So you and your cohorts, puppets, friends, or whatever have made your point a couple of dozen times now. We, as Burners, aren't environmentally perfect and neither is the LLC. We will all try to do better. So how about just going away now. Your self-rightousnous makes me want to puke.

How about we *not* go away instead? I thought some of the Burning Man ideals were sharing & being open with one another? How does saying "just go away, puppet. We're not perfect, we just don't care." really fit into all of that?

If anyone is being self-righteous, it's the people that have said they consider the playa to be a total wasteland and they should be able to do as they please with it.
We're just asking that BMORG be held accountable for damages. I don't see anything "self-righteous" about that at all.

Let's drive a wedge between the environmentalists and the progressive community!

It's not so much about driving a wedge between anything. It's more about challenging those who'd throw stones disguised as fact, proof and record. None of which has been even remotely presented with any credibility as far as I can tell.

Even more infuriating is the smug, self-righteous way that our band of newly out of the woodwork 'activists' so readily, so flippantly suggest how things might be done differently/better or not at all. Yet, in all their yammerings I've yet to read anything that even remotely suggests that they've ever volunteered to be part of the effort for which they so adamantly seemed to be opposed. I mean, have any of them ever...

1) volunteered to stay post-event to contribute to the cleanup?

1a) dragged their asses up the the playa 3, 4, 5 weekends in a row to walk the line picking up MOOP?

2) volunteered during the event (Earth Guardians in particular)?

2) gotten involved with any public comment involving the Project and the BLM during ANY of the very public input process such as the ones they've had in Sacramento, Reno, Sparks, Gerlach over the past several years?

3) suggested using public comment, town hall meetings, private e-mail, etc. participation or otherwise voiced their concerns other than slapping up a lame web site as a platform to hurl their misinformation?

4) provided alternative remedies to the problems they believe exist?

<crickets chirping...>

Why is it that more often than not that the people who'd criticize so vociferously often seem to be the same ones who, at the end of the day, never seem to put their monies where their mouths are or, more impotantly, walk the fucking walk.

Let's drive a wedge between the environmentalists and the progressive community!

It's not so much about driving a wedge between anything. It's more about challenging those who'd throw stones disguised as fact, proof and record. None of which has been even remotely presented with any credibility as far as I can tell.

Even more infuriating is the smug, self-righteous way that our band of newly out of the woodwork 'activists' so readily, so flippantly suggest how things might be done differently/better or not at all. Yet, in all their yammerings I've yet to read anything that even remotely suggests that they've ever volunteered to be part of the effort for which they so adamantly seemed to be opposed. I mean, have any of them ever...

1) volunteered to stay post-event to contribute to the cleanup?

why would we? we didn't go the event.its BMORG resonsiblity and agreement with BLM that they willlean up their mess. Plus we live 200-300 miles away and have jobs.

1a) dragged their asses up the the playa 3, 4, 5 weekends in a row to walk the line picking up MOOP?

Well we have been partof BLM wlaks to check on event cleanup.

2) volunteered during the event (Earth Guardians in particular)?

Umm we dont attend the evnt so we can't jsut go in can we?

2) gotten involved with any public comment involving the Project and the BLM during ANY of the very public input process such as the ones they've had in Sacramento, Reno, Sparks, Gerlach over the past several years?

Umm yes!!!!!yes!! many times in fact we were one of only 3 public comments on the BLM public commentperiod in June.

3) suggested using public comment, town hall meetings, private e-mail, etc. participation or otherwise voiced their concerns other than slapping up a lame web site as a platform to hurl their misinformation?

Why is it that more often than not that the people who'd criticize so vociferously often seem to be the same ones who, at the end of the day, never seem to put their monies where their mouths are or, more impotantly, walk the fucking walk.

just so you know, I was'nt trying to start any fires. I was gone along time and should have done some research on what the eplaya was up to but by the time I kinda caught up, this thread was already getting started.

so what's the deal? are there gonna be any new solutions and inovative ideas?

I'm totally into the solar panel thing and have been reading on this board of some other new ideas

how to's......building a stage and all.

I also offered to go up and help with the moop thing last year but did not have a ride.

To all the stopburningman people, sock puppets, and/or multiple personalities:

The insane number of threads this whole discussion is happening on seems both detrimental to the board and the topic itself, with all the cross-postings, redundant questions, etc. If you are actually concerned about the environmental impact of the event and not just trying to fuck with our community, please pick one thread to carry on the discussion, or start a single new one, and let's proceed from there. Any post aside from saying "Let's go to this thread" will look suspiciously troll-like, I am thinking.

To everyone else on the board, I respectfully ask that you don't post on any more of these threads until a single one is chosen. I'm sorry about the multiple cross postings and if this seems high-handed. I suppose I could have asked the moderators to intervene, but you know...radical self-reliance and all that.

"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes

Isotopia wrote:2) gotten involved with any public comment involving the Project and the BLM during ANY of the very public input process such as the ones they've had in Sacramento, Reno, Sparks, Gerlach over the past several years?

I wondered about that too. When you consider that the there was almost two years for them to input comments on the BLM Land Management Plan EIS (not EA as one of them said--just how savvy are they?) for the Black Rock Desert and that now, 3 months after the period has closed they go on the warpath, I gotta wonder. Or did they not manage to impress anyone, and this is the source of thier conviction that BLM is on the take. I'll have to look at the comments. . .

allanon2 wrote:i have thousands of pages...one day I suspect a land sailor will get seriosuly hurt or killed becuase of them.

Why do you care so damn much? Even if BM harms the environment more than we all think, why don't you focus your <<<seemingly endless, endless>>> crusade against Burning Man? Why the fuck would you be asking for 1000s of pages of FOIA documents just to prove that BM damages the <<<boohoo, big fucking deal>>> oh so delicate playa? Why don't you put your HUGE amount of research and energy and tens of thousands of words towards a more worthy environmental cause and

LEAVE this board to the people who want to use it for something else? For example, use your 1000s of FOIA pages to write an op ed piece about how the Bush administration's policies are chipping away at environmental protection all across the country??

Wait, wait, I know why!!! YOU'RE A LAND SAILOR!!! <<<one day I suspect a land sailor will get seriosuly hurt or killed becuase of them.>>> Isn't that an inherently dangerous sport?? Do you wear a helmet? Don't you find the speed and risk thrilling at all? Isn't the adrenaline rush why you do it??