It has been reported in a Venezuelan newspaper that Carlos Carrasco is slated to undergo Tommy John surgery. I hope something got lost in the translation.If true, that's 1 less starter for our 2012 "season of dreams". And 1 less SP for trade bait.

3ProspectsAndaPTBNL wrote:Wow, that's terrible news. He really needed to prove himself next year. I would think a starting pitcher would be added to the offseason check list.

Yea unfortunately Im gonna have to agree. Our top 3 in the rotation are pretty much set in stone, and we have the depth in Tomlin, Huff, Barnes, Gomez, McCallister, Talbot, and maybe Packer sometime next year, but Im not sure we should be taking that chance. We acquired Ubaldo so we could compete the next two years, so I would expect us to look into a 2-3 year deal for a veteran, or a Pavano-like deal just to give us another option. If we don't, that will put a lot of pressure on our bullpen to have a repeat year and create expectations that may be too high for our young starting pitchers to handle.

Id be curious to know if priority number one for the FO has changed from a RH bat to a SP after this injury.

3ProspectsAndaPTBNL wrote:Wow, that's terrible news. He really needed to prove himself next year. I would think a starting pitcher would be added to the offseason check list.

Yea unfortunately Im gonna have to agree. Our top 3 in the rotation are pretty much set in stone, and we have the depth in Tomlin, Huff, Barnes, Gomez, McCallister, Talbot, and maybe Packer sometime next year, but Im not sure we should be taking that chance. We acquired Ubaldo so we could compete the next two years, so I would expect us to look into a 2-3 year deal for a veteran, or a Pavano-like deal just to give us another option. If we don't, that will put a lot of pressure on our bullpen to have a repeat year and create expectations that may be too high for our young starting pitchers to handle.

Id be curious to know if priority number one for the FO has changed from a RH bat to a SP after this injury.

If true, it is sad news indeed for the Indians and a potential MOR/TOR pitcher. He set aside my doubts this year, especially learning that he needs TJ. I seriously doubt the Indians will be looking for any new SPs. You have a top 3 and a solid BOR in Tomlin. Huff and Gomez both have ML experience and have pitched well this year. Rondon is back pitching along with depth options like Barnes and McAllister. I think a number of teams would like to have our pitching depth problems.

That article quotes Hector Rondon a close friend. Carrasco has had 3 strains that's a pretty good indication something is going on with that elbow. Just saying cause for concern with Tomlin going down too.Notes of Carrasco surprise at potential return to throw program last wk sound legit. Carrasco reportedly still experiencing pain.Tribe could sign or acq. A vet SP this offseason just shows can't have enough depth.

indianinkslinger wrote:If true, it is sad news indeed for the Indians and a potential MOR/TOR pitcher. He set aside my doubts this year, especially learning that he needs TJ. I seriously doubt the Indians will be looking for any new SPs. You have a top 3 and a solid BOR in Tomlin. Huff and Gomez both have ML experience and have pitched well this year. Rondon is back pitching along with depth options like Barnes and McAllister. I think a number of teams would like to have our pitching depth problems.

+1 slinger. Surely 1 or 2 of the aformentioned pitchers can perform adequately or better. I also think Hagadone's days as a starter aren't over. Him and Barnes are 2 powerful lefties with high ceilings. I'm more concerned with the lack of offensive depth in the upper levels than pitching, at this point anyway.

@ Chip Davis... Agreed pitching is not a problem for this org. Matt Packer could make his way onto the scene as could Austin Adams. And more follows them with Giovanni Soto, Mike Rayl, and Clayton Cook all giving signs of encouragement. Who knows maybe even DLC will get things strait. It's hard not to like Hagadone...I love his fastball seemed a bit juiced for his debut but hey who can blame him, I'd probably hit the backstop with my first few pitches. He definately could be stretched out over the winter. If Carrasco is down, Rondon could pitch back into shape over the winter and potentially compete for a BOR spot by summer.After that hot June by Carrasco, makes me wonder if he was trying to pitch through the injury in July when his era exploded.With the depth of bullpen arms I don't think it unreasonable to think that the Tribe will pkg a guy or two to get a bat in here. Scoring 2-3 runs a night will only get the Tribe 80 wins again next season. I don't think it's unreasonable to think the Tribe makes a big trade involving an arm like Rafael Perez and some prospects for a bat. Could see a cpl minor veteran additions in FA and possibly a vet. SP.The Tribe does have org. depth at several positions Pitching, MIF, and C all valuable positions.

Assuming Carrasco needs TJ (and being a Clevelander I always assume the worst and I'm usually right), our starting pitching is suddenly looking a little thin. Having lost Pomeranz, White, and Carrasco for next year in the span of a month and getting only Ubaldo back could be a problem, especially with McAllister not exactly looking like a ML option in 2012.

We're counting on some combination of Huff, Gomez, and Barnes to fill those last two spots next year. Kluber has been extremely inconsistent and the guys at AA aren't ready to make the jump to the bigs. If Talbot is healthy, which he never has been for very long, he would be Plan C or D.

I think the offense will be OK if Grady, Choo, Pronk, and Kipnis are all healthy. Brantley will be 100% and we also have Santana, Asdrubal, Chiz, and probably Hannahan, so the bats are there. When we had most of those guys in the lineup at the same time we went 30-15.

If a deal is made it will probably be for another starter, but more likely they'll sign a retread and hope for another Pavano or Millwood.

Bad news for the Indians..CarCar will be missed.. he's still just 24, so, we'll see how he does with his velocity and command sometime near the end of the 2012 season for a call up.. or as a candidate for a starting spot late to start the 2013 season..

Just a quick question.. if anyone knows.. there's been a LOT of discussion regarding the positive results from TJ surgery.. while that's all well and good..

Here's the question.. what are the results of a post 25 year old having TJ versus a pre- 25 year old.. Anyone know?

Don't know about the pre-25 vs post-25 TJ results, but definitely was encouraging seeing Strasburg come back yesterday as strong as he did. He's only what, 15 months younger than Carrasco (granted surgery was a year ago)?

GeronimoSon wrote:Bad news for the Indians..CarCar will be missed.. he's still just 24, so, we'll see how he does with his velocity and command sometime near the end of the 2012 season for a call up.. or as a candidate for a starting spot late to start the 2013 season..

Just a quick question.. if anyone knows.. there's been a LOT of discussion regarding the positive results from TJ surgery.. while that's all well and good..

Here's the question.. what are the results of a post 25 year old having TJ versus a pre- 25 year old.. Anyone know?

with TJ surgery velos usually increase while command is the last thing to return. Having surgery now means he can rehab some in Winter ball and then in ST '13. The biggest concern is if his command is slow in returning does he have an option left for a prolonged AAA assignment?

daingean wrote:with TJ surgery velos usually increase while command is the last thing to return. Having surgery now means he can rehab some in Winter ball and then in ST '13. The biggest concern is if his command is slow in returning does he have an option left for a prolonged AAA assignment?

Yes. Presumably, he'll be on the 40 all of next year, so he won't be using his last option. Look to Hector Rondon here for a timetable. He could be activated in September and put on a 30 day rehab assignment until the season ends, but he won't use that option (and, because of the rule about having to spend at least 20 days for the option to count, he could even be activated a little before that). Then, if the Indians feel that he has to spend some time in AAA getting his command back, they can do that in 2013.

i was wondering if you had any info into the indians looking closer at what their training staff is doing? I know injuries happen, but you have to wonder about how these guys are being trained and conditioned in the offseason and if there are things that are setting their top players up for injury.

Sizemore, hafner, choo, tomlin, carrasco, kipnis, alexander perez, rondon, alex white, brantley. Then you look at the top prospects like de la cruz, alexander perez, adam miller, michael aubrey, and there are more. A small market like the indians can't afford to take these type of hits.

There has to be something wrong with how the indians are being conditioning. We can' t just point to bad luck when we have had these injury problems in pror years as well.

daingean wrote:with TJ surgery velos usually increase while command is the last thing to return. Having surgery now means he can rehab some in Winter ball and then in ST '13. The biggest concern is if his command is slow in returning does he have an option left for a prolonged AAA assignment?

Yes. Presumably, he'll be on the 40 all of next year, so he won't be using his last option. Look to Hector Rondon here for a timetable. He could be activated in September and put on a 30 day rehab assignment until the season ends, but he won't use that option (and, because of the rule about having to spend at least 20 days for the option to count, he could even be activated a little before that). Then, if the Indians feel that he has to spend some time in AAA getting his command back, they can do that in 2013.

Actually, Rondon used an option this year. Was optioned to Columbus in March. A player can't just be in limbo because he is hurt, he still either has to be optioned to the minors or on the Major League DL. That said, because Rondon had less than 90 days of active time, he will quality for a 4th option year. Carrasco next year will likely be on the 60-day DL all year (different from Rondon). The upside is you save Carrasco's option....the downside is you lose a whole year of service time.

daingean wrote:with TJ surgery velos usually increase while command is the last thing to return. Having surgery now means he can rehab some in Winter ball and then in ST '13. The biggest concern is if his command is slow in returning does he have an option left for a prolonged AAA assignment?

Yes. Presumably, he'll be on the 40 all of next year, so he won't be using his last option. Look to Hector Rondon here for a timetable. He could be activated in September and put on a 30 day rehab assignment until the season ends, but he won't use that option (and, because of the rule about having to spend at least 20 days for the option to count, he could even be activated a little before that). Then, if the Indians feel that he has to spend some time in AAA getting his command back, they can do that in 2013.

Actually, Rondon used an option this year. Was optioned to Columbus in March. A player can't just be in limbo because he is hurt, he still either has to be optioned to the minors or on the Major League DL. That said, because Rondon had less than 90 days of active time, he will quality for a 4th option year. Carrasco next year will likely be on the 60-day DL all year (different from Rondon). The upside is you save Carrasco's option....the downside is you lose a whole year of service time.

I meant timetable on injury return time, not as a guide towards his service clock/options used. Seeing as though Rondon was injured and went in for TJ surgery roughly at the same time.

"Carrasco (8-9, 4.62) was on the disabled list twice this year with elbow pain. Head trainer Lonnie Soloff said the injury is probably the result of an incident Carrasco suffered as a teenager in Venezuela.

"Carlos told us he hurt his elbow when he was 14 and didn't throw for six to eight weeks," said Soloff. "That was evidenced by the chronic, or old, changes on the MRI. Then just through repetitive throwing over the years, the ligament is not doing the job it should be doing -- stabilizing the inside of the elbow.""

So that means the top two prospects we got for Cliff Lee both had serious arm problems before being traded to Cleveland. Knapp has had two surgeries and now Carrasco needs a TJ. Great.

In all fairness, there's probably no way the Tribe could have known about Carrasco's elbow issue. He's still young so he has a great chance to come back 100%. Hagadone had TJ and he's throwing well; same with Strasburg as somebody pointed out. If Carrasco's velocity improves he'll he throwing in the high 90s. We can only hope.

At least Marson and Donald are developing into useful, but not impact, players.

Carrasco has pitched with an aching elbow for sometime. He was down previously with the Phillies org. And last yr he missed a few wks prior to his promo to the big club. I'd expect Carrasco returns throwing a bit harder 96-97 once several mths removed. He was hitting 95-96 with a hurt elbow, it's reasonable IMO to think he'll return Stronger.

Having experienced elbow injury myself, I felt the multiple strains for Carrasco were just the writing on the wall. Once Carrasco does get back it'll be interesting to see who fills the gap. The Tribe still has a lot of talented arms all through out the system. Kids like House, Goodnight, Rayl, Blair even Sterling could all be close to knocking on the door in another yr. That's not including guys like Barnes, Adams, McAllister, Packer who are closer.

I have no inside knowledge, but I don't see how you can blame the Indians for the injuries to Carrasco and Knapp. We could get into specifics, but we all need to remember how fragile young pitchers are. Pitching is an unnatural human movement and guys hurt their elbows and shoulders doing it. It's just the way it is.

When the MLB Scouting Bureau posted their videos of draft prospects, I went through and watched a great deal of the tapes on HS arms. I saw a lot of HS arms that projected to be #2 and #3 starters based on talent. There are dozens of them. There are dozens of them every year. I couldn't help but say, "There sure are a lot of these guys, but there's really only a small amount actually in the majors -- most of these guys will fizzle out." A lot of them don't reach the majors b/c their command sucks, or they can never develop good offspeed stuff, but a lot of them go down to major injury. It's just the way it is with pitchers -- you have to expect it to happen. Carrasco, Rondon, Perez -- it's not the Indians' fault -- it's just what happens with pitchers. MLB teams have to be prepared for this stuff. Carrasco will probably be back, just as Rondon will be in 2012 spring training.

You may all have heard the phrase, "There's no such thing as a pitching prospect." This is what that phrase is alluding to.