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Tim Cook’s condemnation of a federal court order compelling Apple to write custom software that can bypass its own security restrictions has royally honked off the Department of Justice, which filed a motion today to compel Apple’s immediate cooperation in the case. Apple had previously asked for (and been granted) an additional three days to consider its response, which is now due by February 26.

The Department of Justice’s new filing pulls absolutely no punches, as shown below.

The document later states:

Based on Apple’s public statement and other statements by Apple, Apple’s current refusal to comply with the Court’s Order, despite the technical feasibility of doing so, instead appears to be based on its concern for its business model and public brand marketing strategy..

Apple’s public statement make it clear that Apple will not comply with the Court’s Order. The government does not seek to deny Apple’s its right to be heard, and expects these issues to be fully briefed before the Court; however, the urgency of this investigation requires this motion now that Apple has made its intention not to comply patently clear.

In other words: Because Apple will appeal the district court ruling and almost certainly ask that ruling to be suspended pending litigation, the DOJ wants to force Apple to comply immediately and settle the question at a later date.

Apple can challenge the All Writs Act used to compel its testimony in several ways but will almost certainly rest its case by arguing that the support the government wants is not, in fact, a minor issue. The DOJ and FBI have argued that it’s basically trivial for Apple to create a system that would unlock just one device while bypassing the security protections meant to secure the product from tampering. Apple has argued that creating such software is burdensome, and pointed out that while it has cooperated with the government in the past, it did so with devices running iOS 7 or below. Beginning with iOS 8, Apple began fully encrypting the product.

The Donald (or his campaign manager) weighs in

Earlier today, Donald Trump called for a boycott of Apple products until the company turns over the information on the San Bernardino devices. What’s somewhat more amusing is that Donald Trump’s campaign manager was sending out tweets on an iPhone at exactly the same time.

Kudos to 9to5Mac for the catch on this one. Trump later sent the following tweet, “clarifying” the situation and vowing to only use Samsung devices from this point forward.

Unconfirmed rumors from ExtremeTech’s armada of Korean spies suggest that Trump and Samsung are actually collaborating on a future Galaxy device that will channel Trump’s restraint and thoughtful demeanor with Samsung’s beloved TouchWiz UI.

Tagged In

Oh no, trump wont use an iphone. I hope someone steals his phone and leaks everything on it lol

jack324

His password is probably just “TRUMP”.

Mikael Murstam

or WALL

Michael K

Normal people didn’t care about encryption until the NSA took advantage of their power, now companies have met people’s demands for private comms, so the government created this problem in the first place

e92m3

Nothing about ios8 changes the concept of ‘private comms’.
They weren’t private then and they aren’t now. This is just about the device itself.

ncgmac

The problem here is that Apple, and the government, have conflated the concept of privacy rights with the very real issue of a terrorist’s iPhone that likely has actionable intel encrypted within.

While I think the government has every right to the data on the terrorist phone (especially since they have gone through all the legal hoops to get it) if it is such a “trivial” thing why isn’t someone on the government dime designing the hack? I’m not sure what is more worrisome here. The fact that Apple refuses to take the phone, crack into it, and hand the government back that data, or the fact that the U.S. Government no longer has anyone talented enough on its payroll to do it themselves.

On the subject of ironic humor, it’s sort of funny that an administration that focuses on the benefit of “government” has to go to the private sector for help with its job. Too bad it’s national security.

Natan

It’s a very good thing that the government can’t hack into the device. If they could then somebody in china definitely could, so I’m glad the phones are secure enough. And the problem with apple designing such software is that once the software is created it’s like opening Pandora’s box, every device is now vulnerable. It’s the exact same as a backdoor. Something will be leaked or stolen and then we’re all screwed.

Ian Skinner

good job with the bi partisan reporting.. with the amount of libtard sniveling about trump this saftey circle hipster writer must hail from the EU ..

Joel Hruska

Southwest Indiana, actually. Then Kentucky, then rural Western New York, which, contrary to stereotypes about New York CITY, is quite conservative.

I’m currently in Buffalo for logistical reasons.

Try again.

Ian Skinner

SO your just a libtard douche, forwarding your own political agenda. Using Apples desire to make hay, ( with the weak minded likes of you and the tinfoil hat brigade), with a known terrorists phone then obey the court order they’ve obeyed 70 times in the past. Yes Aplle is awesome, lets ignore the deaths of American’s and potentially let others involved with them get away or worse wander off to commit more terror since their cell phones will be well protected in the future.. “But hey, lets not talk about that, lets put down the Reps and Trump.. cause I’m a Dem.. “

jdwii

Maybe if for once reps and trump stuck up for encryption and stop thinking the government can just look into whatever they want people would support them. You act like people just love to hate a certain group of people for no reason.

I’ll never support a party that doesn’t even support encryption or peoples privacy. Not only that but when trump says he used samsung phones and iphones means he has no idea what the hell he is talking about, same when he said we should ask bill gates to lock down the internet like bill gates even has the ability or ever had the ability to do so.

Reminds me of some idiots who called into geek squad saying they want to talk to bill gates about their PC.

If you do not understand technology or science or any other subject for that matter you shouldn’t be considered even important within those fields of study. Its quite obvious that many on the right and that includes trump likes to speak about things they have no credentials in.

It’s like when Jim Inhofe brought a snowball into the senate to prove climate change is wrong guess what he was from the right to!

Joel Hruska

If you can’t handle a mild joke about a public person without flinging insults, accusations, and throwing a temper tantrum, you’re going to have a hard time being taken seriously here.

I absolutely support your write to vote for any candidate you wish. Vote Trump. Vote Clinton. Vote Cruz or Kasich or Rubio. Vote for Sanders or for your dog, it’s all the same to me. But don’t expect to be taken seriously if your knee-jerk response to a mild tease is OMG BIAS.

I have already written multiple stories on the topic of why Apple should fight this order. Since they are linked above I’ll recommend you read them if you want answers.

jdwii

Joel do not bother supporting people like that! Any support from a party that does not support privacy isn’t worth a penny of your time, let alone trolls who bring snowballs into a senate expecting us to treat their party.

OMGWTFAIL

You don’t have a right to privacy when there is a warrant / court order. You also wouldn’t have an expectation of privacy after going on a killing spree. Not sure that the Bill of Rights even applies in this case as these can be treated as war crimes.

jdwii

This isn’t really just about that one persons rights its about everyones if they do unlock the phone or create a backdoor it makes it possible for every encrypted iphone don’t you understand that? This can be a major security risk you act like only the FBI will have these tools when even bad hackers can use them.

Some even claim it can’t be done allthough i don’t agree.

OMGWTFAIL

Or in your case, support anarchy. How do YOU expect to be taken seriously when you advocate for a company to not comply with the law? The procedure for obtaining a warrant was followed in compliance with the 4th amendment. There is no expectation of privacy on this device. It is owned by the county.

Joel Hruska

How fortunate that Apple’s refusal to decrypt the device has nothing to do with the 4th Amendment. If you want to throw accusations about what I do and don’t support, familiarize yourself with the facts of the case first.

OMGWTFAIL

Pfft. Maybe you haven’t read the 4th amendment? Very familiar with the facts. Seems like you aren’t familiar with the constitution. Allowing the government access to this device will have no effect on your rights. The county owns the device, not the terrorist, and they have given consent.

Joel Hruska

You seem to think this is about ownership. I’m not sure why.

Apple has not argued that it can’t be required to bypass the device because of the Fourth Amendment. No one is asserting a Fourth Amendment right here.

Courts use three factors to determine if the All Writs Act can be applied in a case:

1). Is the company sufficiently attatched to / involved in the case?

2). Is the company’s help *necessary* to resolve a problem or gain information?

3). Does compelling the company to give its assistance place an undue burden on the company?

Apple is arguing #3. Specifically, that unlocking the device in this fashion will constitute an undue burden. More details here:

However much Apple might be standing up for user privacy *indirectly*, their direct legal argument to the court has nothing to do with the 4th Amendment and everything to do with whether or not creating software of this sort is an undue burden.

If you don’t believe me, search the various court filings in this case for yourself. You’ll find no mention of the 4th Amendment and no assertion of 4th Amendment rights on behalf of the San Bernardino killer.

OMGWTFAIL

3) A ridiculous argument to anyone who understands the software development life cycle. Software is already written.

Ian Skinner

I’ll avoid your hipster millennial crap. When you’ve spent time serving your country in a combat role and seen what terrorists can do first hand. I suspect your over privileged ass might hopefully see the light.

Joel Hruska

1). I’m not a hipster.
2). I’m not a millennial.
3). So you think if I’d seen combat first-hand I’d… what? Avoid mild jokes?

Oh, wait. Wait wait wait. I’m supposed to fall over myself approving of the wholesale destruction of civil liberties because TERRORISM. I get it now.

Maybe if the United States stopped funding third-world dictators, launching wars in other nations, and picking sides when both dictators and religious fundamentalists who want to replace them go to war, we wouldn’t *have* to worry quite so much about whether or not terrorists wanted to kill US.

The United States laid the groundwork for ISIS when we invaded Iraq and destabilized the entire region. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and our subsequent support for the mujahideen laid the groundwork for the Taliban, and we helped create ISIS when we took down Saddam Hussein. 15 years after 9/11, we spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives, and we’re *still* cleaning up the mess from a war we never should’ve launched to start with.

OMGWTFAIL

“Wholesale destruction of civil liberties”

This is the county’s phone. There is a warrant. There is probable cause. There is no expectation of privacy on the device.

Andre Messado

Dude you just do not get it do you? Apple can’t just unlock the phone. They don’t have the software to do it because they never made it. This is was the first thing Apple mentioned when they discussed this issue. What the DOJ & FBI are asking Apple to do is make the software to crack the encryption. This would be very hard and time consuming for one. But it would put every one who had an iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch, iPad at risk because if the software got leaked or the FBI got hacked, the key to every one of those devices is now in bad hands.

The other point is that Apple knows the Apple ID was changed when it got into the hands of the FBI. They know someone had access to the phone and did something to it while the phone was confiscated. They’ve also offered many different solutions to get the data off that don’t require breaking the encryption.

Essentially it looks like the FBI is trying to get this software because it wants it. And as bad as it may sound they may be using the event to get this software. And it would take Apple a while to write it. You realize software contains millions of lines of code right?

Marc GP

And more paranoia, you Americans are amazing.

Apple servers can already be hacked and anyone that gets the iOS source code will perfectly be able to build that customization for themselves, it’s trivial.

Apple refusing to obey the law doesn’t protect anyone’s privacy, they just protect that murderer and his collaborators (one of them in the County itself, because he changed the phone’s account).

Apple should be offering to run the brute force attack themselves, so the “backdoor” never leaves Apple and they can use it only for court ordered decryptions. All the rest is just paranoia.

IKROWNI

Paranoia would have prevented all this terrorist shit to begin with. Its the shit bags like you that want to give freedom for security. How about since your so against the constitution and want government running your life to every single matter you should just move to Russia or elsewhere.

Marc GP

Don’t Feed the Troll.

IKROWNI

Dude if you would like to have a say in ANYTHING to do with this country maybe you should be living here first. Stop acting like you have any idea WTF you are talking about. So go stick your nose up your queens ass and leave the debate about legalities in america be left to the Americans.

EDIT: Also i love how i commented to your reply and then you commented back to my new reply with

“dont feed the troll”

Talking about yourself in 3rd person.

Marc GP

My first reply wasn’t to you. And I certainly don’t reply to messages that starts with calling me “shit bag”.

If your first message to me is to call me that then you certainly have not the slightest interest in having a serious conversation, and that haves a name.

IKROWNI

You do realize that we have the CIA actually stealing information from senators on trial right now right? You do realize that snowden released proven information about our entire nation being snooped on by the NSA right? You do realize we had the IRS tampering with peoples taxes depending on what political affiliation they had right? You do realize that the secretary of state has been caught in over 2 dozen conspiracies right? You do realize that the war we are in was caused by us right? You do realize that our government was caught red handed giving weapons to cartel members right? You do realize we staged a fight in the battle of tonkin to start the vietnam war right? You do realize that the big banks get a slap on the wrist for dumping our economy right?

Now go do your homework and come back and tell me more about how people are just “PARANOID” that the government might overstep its bounds. Cause i could take this list a looooooot farther if you please.

OMGWTFAIL

Wrong, they aren’t asking apple to break the encryption.

danny96

The company that wants to control everything hasnt installed a backdoor? You dont know apple. They want free advertising like nsa and fbi cant break their phone. Since when apple cares about the world? What have they done for the world?.google wants to give access to internet to every corner of the planet and apple wants to sells you the same stuff only thinner .just read about people changing macbook screens every 6 months and tell me about premium quality. no wonder most apple followers are minors or gold digging blondes with half baked brains

Joel Hruska

Apple is arguing that building a new, compromised version of its operating system for the purpose of unlocking this device is highly burdensome and therefore illegal.

It is not refusing to do so on 4th Amendment grounds.

OMGWTFAIL

It wouldn’t be new. How do you think they brute force test the encryption algorithm? There has to be a version of software with auto-wipe already disabled. There are plenty of test versions of iOS that aren’t in circulation.

Also, I understand that Apple’s refusal is not based on the 4th amendment. It is not based in law at all.

IKROWNI

^THIS, All of THIS.

End religion and war for a peaceful world to live in

spoffle

Do you want to maybe try again in English?

Rawr

One side majority likes the 4th amendment while the other the 2nd. Sorta balances out the way I see it. Swim with the sharks with either gun totting maniacs or the privacy of would be terrorists. Either or both ends will have people dead sooner or later. Don’t you just love America?

IKROWNI

So because i carry a gun in the event of a bad guy doing something illegal in front of me and endangering the lives of my family i’m a maniac? And because im also against the government having their way with anything they want im for terrorism? Boy you have fallen way to far to ever be saved from the shit you stir.

Marc GP

Yes, by european standards you are a maniac and you would be arrested on site, we don’t like gunmen on our streets.

Long live the Wild West. Allow guns at the University of Texas, guns and hormonal teenagers, what could possibly go wrong ?.

IKROWNI

and what about knives, baseball bats, machetes, etc, etc.

To bad nobody was armed in the Paris event right? Nobody was allowed to have guns but the bad guys certainly had them didn’t they? An entire auditorium full of people stripped of what they needed to fight back, certainly very sad.

Marc GP

No, you can’t walk our streets with knives, machetes, … either. You will also be arrested on sight.

Works pretty well for us, in my country we have less violent kills in a full year for the whole country that you have in a single day on a medium-sized American city alone.

If you enjoy so much killing yourselves, be my guest. But leave your guns at home when visiting, they are not welcome in Europe.

IKROWNI

I’d rather just not visit if i’m not allowed to have means to protect myself. I would much rather have means to protect me and my family than just stand there like an asshole with his thumb up his ass begging for the other guy not to shoot me. Since he’s the only one with a gun ya know.

Bri

I think you need to brush up on American history and the constitution.

Rawr

Actually I don’t care for either. I have no views on either either. Just making an observation when parties fight over it. If you carry a gun to protect your loved ones, good for you. If you like your privacy then keep it going. What others do is not my business nor do I care. I’m talking about the crazies here and you seem like a reasonable person.

IKROWNI

That’s all anyone wants. To be left alone and not have to deal with other peoples shit. At least that’s how I feel about it. And I don’t just carry a gun to help myself and my family I would use it just as much for anyone else in trouble that needs it.

dns7950

I honestly feel so sorry for you.. It must be so difficult for you, going through life with such a severe mental disability.. Don’t worry, once Bernie Sanders is elected, there will be better health care and social programs, that could get you the help that you clearly need. Maybe you will even have the chance to get an education, so you don’t have to keep making a fool of yourself on the internet! In the meantime, keep ranting, raving and insulting people who don’t agree with your insane conspiracies. I’m sure it’s not your fault, we won’t blame you for being so paranoid and delusional. We could all use a good laugh anyways!

OMGWTFAIL

LOL Bernie Sanders… not a chance he wins in a general after 8 years of Obama. Not likely for Hillary either after such a disastrous presidency.

Joel Hruska

The GOP can’t seem to find a candidate that can win a general election. Trump commands a plurality, not a majority of votes. Cruz and Rubio, the generally preferred alternates, have yet to demonstrate sustained performance.

There are two ways to view this. One is that the GOP will rally behind any eventual candidate no matter what. Another is that Trump, who truly is anathema to a significant chunk of the GOP base, would rather not vote or vote Dem than elect him. Pundits have and will continue to argue both sides of this.

A third possibility is that Trump goes independent and fractures the GOP, handing the election to the Democrats.

No matter how you slice it or who you support, there are reasons to be concerned about what’s happening within the Republican Party. No candidate has yet demonstrated an ability to consolidate the vote, and the candidates themselves are vowing to drag the process out as long as possible. If Trump wins SC with a plurality of the vote but not a majority, it will only drag things out further.

OMGWTFAIL

Trump will easily win the nomination. Cruz is a bit too much of a bible-thumper. Rubio is too inexperienced and the rest are just too far behind. The Dems are in the tank for Hillary. She has all but a handful of superdelegates. Independents will go to Trump in this scenario. Even with all his negatives, Hillary’s are higher. Her email fiasco, Benghazi, Goldman Sachs speeches, etc. will sink her.

IKROWNI

so wait, rubio, an elected senator is too inexperienced for president but the reality tv star with 0 political background is experienced enough? Gotcha makes perfect sense now. We just need a wall right? A big wall that will make everything better.

Your gonna be in some serious shit when trump decides idiots are getting kicked over to the other side of the wall as well arent you?

OMGWTFAIL

Senators create law, they don’t run anything. Trump’s executive experience far outmatches Rubio’s. Saying that Trump has zero political background is insane. Where have you been the last 3 decades? He’s given more money to political candidates than most, wined and dined them, etc. He knows how to get things done. He’s the only candidate not taking political contributions from lobbyists. Get your head out of the sand.

IKROWNI

Oh boy your right we should elect the guy that’s been buying politicians for his own agenda for 3 decades. What could ever go wrong with that plan?

OMGWTFAIL

Please. The kids will be left to run the company. We have checks and balances.

Bri

Yes, because we have so much better health care now when there are still millions uncovered and the middle class is suffering due to increased rates.

Aerobat

It seems like only two years ago that the government and states were all up in arms demanding that Apple make its phones and devices more secure to make them less tempting for thieves. That was of course another election year.

So now that Apple HAS made the phones more difficult to hack and repurpose OR steal people’s data, the same government agencies want them to give them a backdoor into the devices so THEY can hack them and steal date (Ostensibly with a warrant). Of course once that secret ‘Backdoor’ gets into the hands of a SINGLE disgruntled government employee it will hit the black / gray market and become a ‘Front Door’. Are these agencies really that stupid or are they just always trying to frame their own security failures as somebody else’s fault.

I would love to see the FBI get the data off of that phone that they really need (If it’s actually there) but I think anyone with much technical acumen knows the FBI already has that capability. They just want an excuse to get a backdoor into everyone’s devices. While that brings with it some serious constitutional privacy concerns, the thing I worry about most is the fact that the FBI and other agencies can not secure that backdoor access method and keep it out of the hands of criminals.

Of course they will then just blame it on Apple and demand they make their devices more secure …

The government agencies simply can not be trusted to safeguard the tools we buy them.
Let them hack the individual devices the old fashioned way … With Skills and a valid Warrant!

Marc GP

Then Apple should offer alternatives, like getting the phone, running over it the customized version of iOS themselves, and returning it un-encrypted to the police.

But refusing to obey a judicial order and collaborate on a legitimate criminal investigation will lead them to be prosecuted on 14 cases of collaboration in murder. They are protecting an assassin and preventing to possibly discover who helped him and may be preparing new attacks. Apple is not above the law.

Diego

Thats his work phone. there is nothing on it.

Marc GP

You don’t know that. The judge has all the information in this case and thinks that there is vital information in that phone, so preventing to reach it you are covering 14 murders.

If Apple is so worried about creating a backdoor, then they only have to offer an alternative, like not give the customized software to the FBI but to run it themselves over that phone and returning it un-encrypted.

They have many options to satisfy legal warrants on legitimate criminal investigations while ensuring the privacy of their law-abiding costumers, but they have chosen to protect a murderer and all his collaborators that are still out there planning new attacks.

jack324

Do you really think that such a tool could possibly be kept from the US government? Do you even live in the US? The NSA or the CIA will get their hands on it one way or another. There is no justice to be served by forcing Apple to compromise the security and privacy of all it’s users.

And there is another side of this you probably haven’t considered. If Apple is forced to create a tool that can circumvent its own security, then this will be used a legal precedent to force other companies into making similar tools.

This whole situation is akin to the blatantly ignorant nonsense about “saving the children” and “keeping the children safe” that was slapt on any point of view that anyone wanted to make morally wrong to object against. This time it’s just another rehash of “do x or else the terrorists win” bs that’s been applied to way too much these days.

The bottom line is that the government is trying to establish a precedent by which they can force backdoors down corporations throats without having to see if the voters will put up with it. We are allowing the government to breakdown a massive privacy protection for the possibility that there might, just might be some information that may or may not be useful in catching some terrorists. And again nobody has asked the people of the united states if we are OK with this.

No one stands to gain anything from this save the government. They are the only ones to benefit from such a backdoor, and as such they can’t be allowed to make the decision for us, they’re own greed makes them the worst people to have access to such a tool.

Forcing Apple to do this will not bring back the dead. It won’t help to punish the culprits who are also dead. You may choose to side with the government on this, but I choose to side with Apple and to uphold the privacy of my fellow citizens.

And believe me I hate Apple with a passion, so supporting them on anything is a bitter meal indeed.

Marc GP

No, I don’t live in the US and I’m not paranoiac either.

How is gonna get this tool the government if Apple doesn’t give it to them ?. if Apple just un-encrypts the phone and give it back to them ?. This is what Apple should be proposing instead of believing that they can create their own law.

Apple is not going to win this case because, as you say, this case creates a precedent. And the judicial system can’t allow a precedent where a company willingly protect assassins, Apple deserves to be prosecuted for 14 cases of covering murder if they keep blocking this legitimate criminal investigation.

Forcing Apple to do this will allow to know who helped the assassins and punish their collaborators, maybe preventing new murders from these collaborators.

There is a huge difference between un-encrypting information under legal warrant on a legitimate criminal investigation and indiscriminately spying the whole population, breaking our rights to privacy. Confusing both is just paranoia.

IKROWNI

So if Apple doesn’t already own the software to make this happen, why should it be their responsibility to create it? Why doesn’t the government create it instead? Shouldn’t it be their job? They want it, its not yet made, they should create it.

I remember the good old days of police type work where the detective would go and try to do the work themselves and catch the bad guy. Now its about forcing whoever to do whatever they want. You don’t see the police just picking people up off the street and telling them they have to go stop a bank robber do you?

jack324

IKROWNI, its a rare day when I agree with you but this is one of them. It is the governments job and firmly within their capabilities to figure out a way into that phone on their own. There is simply another agenda running in the background, some power hungry politician has found a way to force backdoors in our devices that that they can’t get passed in Congress.

IKROWNI

Hell I hate Apple products with a passion and would love to see the company go under. But not like this, this isn’t right in the slightest bit. If they can force a company to work for them WTF is the difference between this and slavery? Last time i checked forcing someone to work for you against their will was slavery.

Definition of a slave:
a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person

And from what all the politicians voted for “corporations are people too”

“As a matter of interpretation of the word “person” in the Fourteenth Amendment, U.S. courts have extended constitutional protections to corporations.”

jack324

It’s not paranoia my friend, its knowledge drawn from first hand experience of living under this government. It’s called “if the citizens don’t know we did it, we can’t get in trouble” government mentality. All they have to do is break in at night, or hack in covertly and steal what they want. Will they get accused? Probably, but they can always deny it and we would have little recourse to do anything about it.

If you don’t live here then I have little respect for your opinions on the matter. A lot of Europeans like to complain about how the US sticks its nose in our neighbors business. Why don’t you show us how to Be a good European neighbor and keep your nose out of what is clearly an internal matter.

Marc GP

Got it, let the americans live their paranoia in peace.

By the way, you are forbidden to comment on the rest of the world events. You know, fair is fair.

IKROWNI

You fail to realize that we already don’t give a fuck about the events in the rest of the world. Our government just enjoys keeping your stupid ass in check.

Bri

No, I don’t live in the US…

And that pretty much sums it up…

OMGWTFAIL

You don’t have a right to privacy when there is a court order or a warrant. You can already be ordered to unlock a safe. Also, after you commit war crimes you don’t get the protection of the Bill of Rights. There may be actionable intelligence on that device that could stop a future attack.

Andre Messado

You don’t understand technology Marc. If you put a different iOS on it you erase the fucking phone.

The data is ENCRYPTED. Apple never made the software to decrypt it so they can’t do it.

Holly shit is everyone on the internet fucking stupid or is it just the republicans?

Marc GP

I’m hardly a republican, you can consider European socialists at the very other end of the political spectrum. And I understand computers pretty well, thank you very much.

Nobody asked for a decrypting algorithm, the judge ordered a customized iOS removing the data deleting after ten attempts and the programmed time lapses between attempts, so they can run a brute force attack.

Good point in that OS and data reside in the same Flash memory and you can’t replace the OS without removing also its data. But that’s just an excuse, and you know it.

The solution is obvious: don’t replace the OS, just remove that chip and solder it on a board running the customized version of iOS, so you don’t run the OS from the memory you intend to decrypt.

It can perfectly be done and Apple doesn’t even need to give a backdoor to the government, they can run it themselves. They just don’t want to do it and create a precedent.

For your paranoia against the evil all-mighty government you are looking for every excuse you can find to protect an assassin and all its still hidden collaborators, blocking a criminal investigation with all the legal and judicial guarantees.

IKROWNI

do you honestly think that the government are the only ones capable of running a brute force on an item that doesn’t lock after so many tries?

FFS man i can do that myself. So if i can do it so can literally just about everyone else. You can actually just type it in on google how to bruteforce, read a single article on the subject and now you have access.

Bruce Stewart

Is Apple the only phone that the FBI can’t access or are all phones the same? If Apple is the lone holdout then where’s the big problem with the other brands being hacked by all the worlds cyber criminals?? It seems that Blackberry was the one everyone thought was the most secure at one time and couldn’t be hacked by governments. I don’t remember any fuss over Blackberries being too secure. help me out here, I don’t understand all that’s going on here.

Bri

A court order cannot compel you to invent a new way to hack your phone. particularly when doing so would have extensive repercussions for your sales markets and public image.

ionhand

I believe software is art, a form of expression. Why do you believe government can force someone/people to create a work of art?

Marc GP

The Court is not asking Apple to create anything, they are asking them to remove two lines of their code and recompile iOS (the line calling to wipe memory after ten login attempts, and the line calling to set a delay after every login attempt, so the FBI can run a brute force attack on that device).

No creativity and no art involved here.

IKROWNI

So now that John McAfee has came out stating that he will crack open this one phone for the FBI so that we don’t need to go through all this bullshit. Why wont the FBI take him up on it? They had the iCloud password changed so that they could force Apple into a corner. They don’t give 2 shits about this one phone they just want a method to have access to all of the phones at their own leisure. When you have one of the top notch security people int he world offering to crack it in only 3 weeks time or less if it was that damn important i’m pretty sure that would take him up on it. Seems like your the one being paranoid now, and the weird thing is that your paranoid that the government wont get to invade everyones privacy more than it already does.

So now whats your excuse?

Maybe watch this video and get to know whats really going on instead of jumping on the bandwagon of idiots ready to give it all up for little in return.

I’m not looking for excuses, I know perfectly well that the judges and the police are looking for the precedent, and I’m perfectly fine with it because I also want this precedent set, I want the judges and the police being able to investigate crime under judicial guarantees (through search warrants).

M S i N Lund

JFC!
Greg Stillson for president?

Shit-kicking Americans will be the death of all of us.

Bluetooth

Apple suggested that the FBI take the iPhone 5C, plug it into a wall, connect it to a known Wi-Fi network and leave it overnight. The FBI took the phone to the San Bernardino County Health Department, where Farook worked prior to the December 2, 2015 attack.

When that attempt did not work, Apple was mystified, but soon found out that the Apple ID account password had been changed shortly after the phone was in the custody of law enforcement, possibly by someone from the county health department. With no way to enter the new password on the locked phone, even attempting an auto-backup was impossible. Had this iCloud auto-backup method actually functioned, Apple would have been easily able to assist the FBI with its investigation.

Who needs any remaining shred of privacy if you’ve got nothing to hide, right?..

If we were really living in a democracy, the people would get to vote on whether or not they want constant privacy invasion in every aspect of their lives.. I don’t know what system we are living under for sure, but it sure as hell isn’t democracy..

OMGWTFAIL

In the USA we live in a democratic republic, not a democracy.

IKROWNI

Right we’re just trying to enforce democracy in foreign lands not our own.

Kevin Moore

I always find it funny when I see conservatives defending this sort of logic and liberals rallying against it. Conservative is really only conservative in three aspects anymore national defense, business interests and Christian liberty. Conservatives are supposed to be the ones who want government out of their business but now because they are afraid of terrorists they want to allow the government to compel s business to build software that compromises the security of everyone who uses and iPhone and disparages the security of American tech globally. There are still moderate conservatives out there but people like Trump, those neo-conservatives, those pseudo-conservatives, those stand ins for authoritarian, tyrannical politics, overshadow the moderates and are changing the balance of political values.

OMGWTFAIL

The phone wasn’t owned by the terrorist. It is company property of his former employer. You don’t have a right to privacy in that case, and the former employer literally owns all the info on the device. Apple should unlock it in this case.

Joel Hruska

Apple is arguing that this compromises security on all devices and rhat the ownership argument is irrelevant.

OMGWTFAIL

Fortunately ownership is not irrelevant to the law.

IKROWNI

Exactly it should be the owner of the phones responsibility to unlock the device. In this case that is the person who handed the phone over to the terrorist not Apple.Apple no longer owns the phone it was sold.

OMGWTFAIL

Lol

Mike_Acker

the solution is simple: tell the {} cops to FedEx their “subject devices” to Cupertino. Include a check and a copy of the search warrant .

It doesn’t matter how big the lock is; if you make a door, it will be picked, and the information will be published. I’m not for allowing terrorists to get into my phone, are you, Mr Trump?

OMGWTFAIL

The phone wasn’t owned by the terrorist, it is owned by his former employer. You don’t have a right to privacy on a device you don’t own. Any info on the device is owned by the employer and they have granted permission to retrieve the data. Also, if you commit war crimes you don’t get to hide behind the bill of rights. Apple wrote the software – of course they can get into the device whether they claim it publicly or not. Looks like you’re the moron.

“The phone wasn’t owned by the terrorist, it is owned by his former employer. You don’t have a right to privacy on a device you don’t own. Any info on the device is owned by the employer and they have granted permission to retrieve the data. “

By breaking their own encryption, Apple breaks the encryption to every iPhone encrypted by the same means and sets a precedence for the future of caving to any demands to break encryption.

“Also, if you commit war crimes you don’t get to hide behind the bill of rights.”

I do not claim the bill of rights for these criminals and assert that they, by being killed by local LEOs, received their just reward. This isn’t about these people, it’s about an abuse of power and disregard for the fourth amendment of law abiding Americans that I am concerned about.

“Apple wrote the software – of course they can get into the device whether they claim it publicly or not.”

You obviously have no clue how encryption works. Just like you can’t go after the FSF for GPL-licensed PGP-encrypted software-generated data, you can’t attack Apple for whatever encryption scheme they used.

“Looks like you’re the moron”
I don’t really need to respond to that.

OMGWTFAIL

Not sure you are following this closely enough. Apple is not going to break its encryption algorithm. They will instead write code to stop the auto-wiping feature. If that code got out somehow, they could easily issue a software patch.

There is already precedent for this. If you have a locked safe you can be ordered to open it or face jail time. The 4th amendment doesn’t protect when there is a warrant / court order. There is probable cause in this case (obviously).

Yes for a safe, but there is a court case were by a judge has said that a person couldn’t be forced to give up the password to their phone to unlock it on the grounds that it was the prosecutions job to obtain information to prove guilt, and that forcing the defendant to turn over his password violated his 5th amendment rights. Or something to that effect. I’m looking for a link in Google now to back that up and will update this when I find it.

Marc GP

Not the same, the judge is not asking the suspect the give up his password (it would be quite difficult considering he’s death).

The prosecution is obtaining this information, and they have demanded the cooperation of Apple, as they can demand the cooperation of a bank to open their vaults under court order. It’s exactly the same.

jack324

I thought you agreed to keep your nose out of it? And yet here you are commenting again on an issue you have no stake in. As to your comment, I care little about what you think US courts can and cannot do.

Mind your own countries business.

Marc GP

Don’t be hypocritical, I remember you commenting on other countries affairs.

If you don’t mind your own country business don’t demand it to the rest us.

jack324

So I did, but there’s two key differences between that subject and this one.

1) the discussion was about the technical details pretaining to North Korea’s ability to make nukes small enough to fit in artillery shells. This has nothing to do with the rights of the citizens of North Korea. Here we are discussing the rights of the citizens of the united states in regards to how this court order could effect their ability to live lawful private lives without the government having the ability to take a peak whenever it deams it nessary in order to “protect the interests of the united states”. You are not a citizen of the united states, therefore your rights are not at risk as result of this situation. Thus your opinions on the matter are moot, and for most US citizens, unwanted.

2) North Korea has repeatedly threatened the US with its nukes and missiles etc and therefore made the issue of North Korea having nukes and what kind our business.

If your going to use comments that I have made in the past as proof of something, make sure they actually prove what your claiming. Otherwise you start looking foolish.

Marc GP

So you are now making exceptions, you are entitled to comment on technical matters happening in North Korea but we are not allowed to comment on judicial affairs happening in the US.

What are the rules ?, can I comment on American cuisine or is that matter also forbidden for European citizens ?.

This case is creating a precedent that will affect me almost as much as will affect you.

For someone so worried about American liberties you are tremendously eager to censor the free speech of the rest of the world (that shouldn’t surprise anybody seeing that your country has become the supposed world leader of Freedom at the same time that you have been populating the entire world with fascist military dictatorships at your orders).

IKROWNI

Does this case actually pertain to your country in any way whatsoever? No not at all the findings in the court will have no consequence on your country.

When a crazy leader of a 3rd world country is testing out nukes that have the capabilities to bring great harm to our country then yes it has consequences for our country and involves us.

Marc GP

Backdoors on every encrypted device would have consequences for my country and that involves me.

IKROWNI

No its not because apple sold that vault to someone else. Someone else changed the pin number. You cant ask “bank of america” to go open a vault at “Wachovia bank” can you? Apple is not the owner of the phone anymore go ask the person who legally owns the phone (vault) to open it. What makes him saying no i cant do that any better than apple saying no we cant do that. Neither party has the keys to open it. This is no more than a power grab. What just because Apple is a successful business they should be forced to do the work? I say force the owner of the phone to begin learning encryption breaking techniques just like apple has to do if they are made to do this. Event though its not their phone.

Marc GP

Because nobody has those keys any more, and Apple is the only one that can open it.

You don’t want this phone open ?, you don’t want to know who helped him ?, you don’t want to know what other murders are preparing his collaborators ?.

Apple is the more indicated to make it happen. Encryptions are harder and harder to break every year, we don’t really break a code any more, we find flaws in the system and we take advantage of them. But every time they are less flaws, and soon enough only the manufacturer will have the ability to break a system.

Apple don’t need to learn a thing about cryptology to satisfy the court order, just remove two lines of their OS code and recompile it.

So you want computers and the Internet to be a safe haven for all kind of criminals ?, to never be able to investigate them no matter how much indices we have about them ?, no matter how horrid the crimes they have done ?.

Your paranoia against the evil government is becoming suicidal. An unjustified fear is moving you to allow complete immunity to all kind of criminals.

Fortunately the decision is not yours. Even if Apple wins this case (which they will hardly do) new legislations will be written. I can very much assure that in Europe Apple (and everyone else) will be forced to add backdoors to be used only under legal warrants or the will be forced to leave our market. The only question is if the US will be first at that or will follow us.

But this is going to happen, there is no way we are leaving our judicial systems without the means to legally investigate crimes. So you should save your energies to the real battle, to ensure that the result system cannot be abused by a government or a corporation to indiscriminately spy the whole population.

IKROWNI

“You don’t want this phone open ?, you don’t want to know who helped him ?, you don’t want to know what other murders are preparing his collaborators ?.”

Yes it would be great to have the information on this phone in the hands of our government. But not at the expense of bending any company at their will to do as they please. That’s why we have the departments that are paid to make this stuff happen. WTF do we even have any of these three letter agencies for if they cant do the job they are assigned? We put billions and billions of dollars into these agencies and it all boils down to assigning corporations to do the job for them. Like I said where is the NSA in all of this? You wanna know whats on the phone why not go ask the division whos job it is to spy on every phone in america? They already have the information right? Why do we need to throw more millions at forcing a company to go against everyone else’s interests? For you? An outsider looking in? We have been dealing with corruption from our government for decades.

Dont worry buddy it’s only a matter of time before our country invades you for whatever bullshit they can come up with. And WTF are you gonna do about it then? Sit there and say “give them more power, they need more power”. It might take a loooong time since your country isn’t worth shitand not a high priority right now but it will come around eventually. Then you can tell me about how im just being paranoid.

“So you want computers and the Internet to be a safe haven for all kind of criminals ?, to never be able to investigate them no matter how much indices we have about them ?, no matter how horrid the crimes they have done ?.”

Seriously, come on man there aren’t too many terrorists running around on the normal web. They use things like TOR created by the united states. But i guess even with all the “security” we sacrficed for and you sacrificed to get the NSA and GCHQ monitoring your every detail of your life it still doesn’t do much of shit. Did these places help in Benghazi? 9/11? Paris? San Bernardino? Oklahoma City? Any of the school shootings? Can you answer yes to anything that these agencies have ever helped in hindering terrorist threats? Just 1????????? Name ONE!!!!!!

They are going to get their crooked will done and apple will remove the reset from failures on the devices and watch wont be a fucking thing on the phone. Just more privacy GONE for more “security”

I hope you do stop allowing companies to sell products. Hopefully the entire world moves on while you guys start receding back into the stone age. The only devices a person like you deserves is multiple cameras constantly watching your every move at all times, everywhere you go.

Marc GP

And you still keep confusing the legitimate breaking of concrete devices under judicial guarantees with an imaginary indiscriminate spying by an evil government (as if I was defending that).

Your paranoia is beyond hope.

OMGWTFAIL

The terrorist doesn’t own the phone.

IKROWNI

Your right his boss own the phone, lets demand he learn encryption breaking techniques and create the software to get into it. Your okay with them forcing apple to do this why not make the actual owner do it. It is his property after all not apples.

OMGWTFAIL

Crazy

IKROWNI

“Also, if you commit war crimes you don’t get to hide behind the bill of rights.”

Tell that to the united states government. The bush family says hello BTW

OMGWTFAIL

Not a Bush supporter, but say hi to the ayatollah for me.

duece9s

dont give fbi the backdoor tool, but unlock the phone for them. its not fucking rocket science . #terroristprivacymatters

Joel Hruska

Right. So the government will just ask Apple to unlock all devices. This does nothing to change the status quo.

OMGWTFAIL

They can already make you unlock your safe, car, house, etc. If there is probable cause and there is a warrant, you don’t get to hide your contraband.

Andre Messado

You don’t have to unlock your phone for anyone one. Havn’t you ever heard “you have the right to remain silent..”? It’s not just something cops say when they arrest you, it’s a right you have as an American citizen. You can also “Plead the fifth” in court as that is your American right as well.

OMGWTFAIL

You can’t “plead the fifth” when it comes to contraband.

jack324

You can choose not to relay information verbally or by writing it under the fifth. Inputting a password is writing it, therefore protected by the fifth amendment.

Marc GP

Nobody is asking the suspect to write a password.

The court is ordering Apple to break the encryption as they can also order a bank to open a vault they house.

No “fifths” can be applied here with a dead suspect.

IKROWNI

the bank is owned by the person who owns the bank why would they force a company that doesnt own the property to open it?

Well bank of america(San Bernardino) needs to open this vault(phone)

okay lets go force chase bank(apple) to open it for us instead of bank of america

that makes sense.

OMGWTFAIL

no, wrong

IKROWNI

proof?

Andre Messado

You really don’t understand technology. It’s not rocket science? Do you even know what goes behind making an encryption? Especially a good one?

Glenn

Strong encryption doesn’t mean anything if your password is “pwd”. The government just wants a tool to be able to use some brute force techniques. The OS prevents such techniques with password guess limits. So a new OS would work?

OMGWTFAIL

Trump is right. Apple is really just being stupid here. The phone isn’t even owned by the terrorist, (who is dead by the way) it is owned by his former employer. You have no expectation of privacy on a device that you don’t own. The company gave permission to the government to get the data from the device. Also, once you commit war crimes you are not subject to the bill of rights.

IKROWNI

“The company gave permission to the government to get the data from the device.”

Your exactly right on this, the government can now start working on a way to get the data back, but they should do it without forcing a company to work on it for them. Apple is not a government entity and should not be forced to work with the government or comply. Apple has no stakes into the investigation.

OMGWTFAIL

That’s your opinion, of course, and not based in any actual legal precedence. The government can already force you to open your safe, safety deposit box, etc. In this case the suspect is dead – so we call in a locksmith – in this case it happens to be Apple.

IKROWNI

okay lets use your analogy

I lock myself out of my car. I call a locksmith. I start being a rude dick to him. I tell him to open the box or else. And the locksmith leaves and doesn’t do shit for me. Now what authority do i have to use as leverage to make this locksmith come back and unlock my car? I guess i could put a gun to his head like the government is doing to apple and make him do it that way but that’s kind of illegal though isn’t it. Just because i don’t have the skill set to pick my own lock doesn’t mean i should have the right to force the locksmith to do so.

Marc GP

You are not a court legitimately investigating a criminal case.

There is a court order, it doesn’t matter how nice they are or they are not with the locksmith, Apple has to obey that order, is the law. Do you only pay your taxes when the public servant that attends you is especially nice ?.

IKROWNI

There are also laws preventing slavery. By enforcing this new law they are stepping over a previous law. They cannot force Apple to work for them. It is slavery and it is illegal.

Marc GP

I’m pretty sure the word slaves only applies to human beings and not corporations. Try another concept.

IKROWNI

“As a matter of interpretation of the word “person” in the Fourteenth Amendment, U.S. courts have extended constitutional protections to corporations.”

No your wrong again.

Why are you so adamant to want our government to have even more spying access to your country as well? You do realize this will affect your country in a negative way as well right?

Tell me again how many terrorists has your government been able to stop with all of its snooping? Did Paris go down very well? As i remember they were even using common default messaging apps on regular open lines that were supposedly being monitored for the activity. All that freedom and privacy you gave up and for what?

Look at us. We’re not a bit better though. We have TSA groping, molesting, and harming people in horrific ways and we have managed to stop how many terrorists with these methods? We have the largest spy organization in the entire world with data centers that are just insane that have stopped zero terrorist attacks as said by high ranking military officials. Our generals are even admitting that our government is going insane with this shit. We are buying tanks our military doesn’t want. We have standard police that look like members of the seals walking our streets. We have super invasive spying on a national, nay, worldwide scale that probably surpasses the amount spent by Europe, Russia, and China yearly for all military type spending.

Its pure fucking insanity to think you want more of it. You cant get enough of the shit. We need more military budget, less schools. We need more/better spying, less health services. We need bigger and more prisons, and less medical exploration. We need drugs passed by the FDA quicker and with less regulation, and less rehabilitation. Your crazy!

Marc GP

Because we are not talking about indiscriminately spying the whole population here. We are talking to allow the police to do their work in legitimate criminal investigations with every judicial guarantee.

I’m just not paranoid. If the NSA wants this tool they just have to hack the servers of Apple and build it themselves, it would be trivial. But I insist, this case is not about that, is about how to allow legitimate investigations.

I refuse to protect assassins just for the paranoia against the evil all-mighty government.

IKROWNI

I never said not to allow the FBI to do their jobs. Let them do it. Here is exactly how it works.

Terrorist gets shot

FBI seizes phone

FBI turns phone over to their tech department to work on decrypting the phone.

There you have it the FBI doing their jobs. Forcing someone to work for you on the other hand is the FBI turning a corporation into a slave. Or you could look at it as blackmail. Do this for us or we do this to you.
Next it will be TV manufacturers that they are saying to install cameras and microphones into every TV and give full access to them. Not sure why i even used that analogy since you probably just jizzed all over yourself at the thought of giving them that much control right?

Marc GP

The FBI can’t do that job, only Apple has the means to do it.

And you are falling into the paranoia again. This is a very different thing that forcing TV companies to give them full access to every TV camera on the country.

Although under court order, yes, they could be ordered to do so for a concrete TV on a criminal investigation. And I’m very fine with that. The police needs to have the means to legally investigate crime.

You keep confusing the legitimate investigation under judicial guarantees and the indiscriminate spying of the whole population. Those are two very different things.

IKROWNI

So you would honestly be okay with the government installing a camera in every room across america to have full access to what everyone is doing at all times? You’re crazy.

Dude you look like a terrorist.

Marc GP

No, we haven’t said that.

We have said that if you have a TV with camera (they already are several of them for videoconferences) or a XBox One with Kinnect, …, then on a criminal investigation a judge could decide that they are enough evidences incriminating you to order to grab those video and audio streams. Exactly the same way he can already order to grab your phone conversations.

And Microsoft, Sony, … will have to comply and grab the video and audio streams for which the police has warrants.

It’s not different from what we already have with phone calls. Again the police needs the means to legally investigate crime, and we can’t confuse that with indiscriminately spying the whole population. That’s paranoia, and we can’t be run by paranoia.

IKROWNI

But thats not how it works you numb skull. You really haven’t heard about how the NSA works have you? They dont wait for a court order and a warrant to collect your phone data they just do it all the time around the clock. And hopefully they wont do what they have usually done and use this information in nefarious ways.

Did you honestly think all this backlash from the people about the NSA spying was because they were doing it only under court orders? To singled out individuals? No man its literally every person that owns a phone that has all the data they have ever ran through that phone collected and stored in a database. The IRS has a huge database of personal info for every single person in america as well. It was just abused for political gains.

Like i said all of these privacy invasions have done virtually no good at all in helping prevent or take care of terrorism at all. Top ranking generals have stated its a huge waste and just an invasion of privacy.

You have still yet to answer how well GCHQ did to protect the citizens of Paris that gave their privacy and freedom for security. Lets see we took all the guns of the citizens, then we allowed a packed auditorium to be filled with multiple terrorists during a time where security was at its highest alerts. Gave the people literally 0 chance because of our asinine laws making it illegal to protect yourself. Then you gave up all that freedom and privacy to the GCHQ to monitor telephone/internet data of everyone in your country and the terrorists casually talked about the event that they would take part in over texts through normal default messaging apps on their phones. NO VPN was used, NO IP obfuscation, NO TOR, NO encryption, NO nothing. Just casually plotted out the event on completely unsecure lines with default messaging apps. I guess my point here is to keep throwing billions at the place and get 0 results back as always. That should make a difference. Whats the definition of insanity again?

Marc GP

And we are not talking about the NSA here (the NSA could already get into that phone if they wanted), we are talking about allowing police and judges a legal way to get into encrypted information on legitimate criminal investigations with every judicial guarantee.

We haven’t give up our freedom and privacy for security in Europe. Do you think we are defenceless hippies ?, I did a obligatory year of military service, and my father teach me to shot when I was just 8 years old (he was a hunter and I grew up around rifles, hunts and shot contests, I got my own rifle when I was 15). We have guns, we just have them locked and heavily regulated, as they should be, so they never get into the streets and I have never had to face a weapon (not even a knife) in my whole life. But if you can demonstrate that your family is endangered, you can perfectly get a license for a self-defence gun.

It’s our choice, and our system works. I encourage you to compare the violent kills rate per year of my whole country (Spain) with the violent kills rate in a single day of just a medium-sized american city.

The Islamic terrorism is just a temporary accident and won’t change our minds as the basque terrorism didn’t change it in the eighties when they killed a thousand persons in our streets.

IKROWNI

“the NSA could already get into that phone if they wanted”

So your saying a government entity wants to attain something hidden in a phone. A government entity has the capabilities of getting this information from a phone (pretty much their sole purpose for existing). But the government should force a company that has nothing to do with it to create a method into the phone instead.
That makes perfect sense cause i just know sooo many locksmith companies that know how to break into a certain safe but instead call another company to do the job for them.

“We haven’t give up our freedom and privacy for security in Europe.”

GCHQ exists over there right? That means you have given up some of your privacy with promise of security through cellphone metadata. That promise has not worked for you in the slightest. Is the GCHQ numbers any better than the NSA’s? Have they at least caught 1 terrorist using this new power you gave them?

“Do you think we are defenceless hippies ?”

Lets see, your law abiding citizens are not allowed to carry any form of protection while the bad guys are allowed to. defenseless? Yes! hippies? No! Hippies usually promote peace, you seem to be for the opposite.

“I did a obligatory year of military service, and my father teach me to shot when I was just 8 years old (he was a hunter and I grew up around rifles, hunts and shot contests, I got my own rifle when I was 15)”

Maybe a few years of school and daddy teaching you proper grammar would have helped out a little more than military services.

“We have guns, we just have them locked and heavily regulated, as they should be, so they never get into the streets and I have never had to face a weapon (not even a knife) in my whole life.

How does this help you if your walking down the street? “Wait here Mr. Badguy ill be right back i just gotta run home and get my gun to protect myself.”

“But if you can demonstrate that your family is endangered, you can perfectly get a license for a self-defence gun.”

WTF. So lets get this straight here. In order to be legally allowed to defend yourself or your family you first have to be threatened, then you have to go apply for the right to protect yourself against that 1 threat. How many bad guys will wait around for you to finish this process?

“I encourage you to compare the violent kills rate per year of my whole country (Spain) with the violent kills rate in a single day of just a medium-sized american city.”

California is the absolute strictest state on gun laws in the united states with most places not allowing CCW or open carry in any circumstances.

California is the state that has the closest amount of people living in it as spain.
California had 38.8 million people living in it in 2014, Spain had 46.7 million in 2014.
California In 2012, the state reported 160,944 violent crimes.
California had 1,220 gun crimes reported in 2011

There is also data that PROVES that police use guns illegally 5-10x more often than conceal carry permit holders.

Looooook at the data. Almost half of the gun deaths in america are suicide not homicides. You think taking a gun from a suicidal person will stop them from attaining their goal? We have a huuuuuge drug problem in America. And its not the illegal drugs that are the biggest problem. It’s the drugs that are aired on commercials all day long and given out like candy from doctors who make tons of money from prescribing the drugs. We have more deaths from accidental overdoses on prescription drugs in america than we do gun deaths annually. But we cant talk about that can we its the guns, we gotta take the guns.https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates

Do your police officers carry weapons in spain? If guns are illegal to carry in spain why would your cops carry them? Nothing to worry about right? Well unless a bad person already has one illegally. So you give permission to police to protect their lives and their families lives but you lost that right, just gave it away.

Do you honestly believe that if you gave everyone in Spain a gun to carry around that they will all just turn crazed and start shooting each other? Normal average joes that have never committed a crime will all of a sudden feel compelled to start murdering people simply because they have a gun?

Marc GP

So your saying a government entity wants to attain something hidden in a phone. A government entity has the capabilities of getting this information from a phone (pretty much their sole purpose for existing). But the government should force a company that has nothing to do with it to create a method into the phone instead.

The NSA can most probably get this information, but they will hardly be able to get it “legally”. They will steal the source code of Apple in order to customize the iOS and run the brute force attack. That would be more than enough for the defendants to get any prove there invalidated.

GCHQ exists over there right?

This is a British organization. Doesn’t affect France, Germany, Spain, … This is the choice of the UK population (they are quite peculiar over there).

Maybe a few years of school and daddy teaching you proper grammar would have helped out a little more than military services.

Do you realize that English is not my first language ?, not even my second or my third language either ?. At school I did learn the three official languages of Catalonia: Catalan, Spanish and French, and my grammar is quite good with all of them, thank you very much. English is only the fourth of the five languages that I speak fluently.

Do you really intend to teach me a lesson in linguistics ?.

How does this help you if your walking down the street? “Wait here Mr. Badguy ill be right back i just gotta run home and get my gun to protect myself.”

WTF. So lets get this straight here. In order to be legally allowed to defend yourself or your family you first have to be threatened, then you have to go apply for the right to protect yourself against that 1 threat. How many bad guys will wait around for you to finish this process?

That’s correct, if there is not a known bad guy after you there is no way you are gonna get a license for a gun in Spain.

California is the absolute strictest state on gun laws in the united states with most places not allowing CCW or open carry in any circumstances.

California is the state that has the closest amount of people living in it as spain.
California had 38.8 million people living in it in 2014, Spain had 46.7 million in 2014.
California In 2012, the state reported 160,944 violent crimes.
California had 1,220 gun crimes reported in 2011

Now tell me something. How in the fuck can you say stricter gun laws prevents violent crimes when the strictest state in the united states has triple the gun violence of any other state?

Because the gun control in California is a joke and their streets have plenty of them.

Now take a really effective gun control, like Spain. We have one of the lowest crime rate of the entire world, below 1 homicide per 100.000 of population. There just are not guns in our streets, not for self-defence and not for crime either. And that means only 364 murders in 2012 for the whole country, the proportion of guns involved were a low single digit of that number.

No guns around means that a drunken brawl will just finish with a swollen eye and a night sleeping at the local police station.

Answer me a question, who has much more probabilities to get his family killed, you with your all-mighty gun against all evil, or me in a country with no guns at all ?. Doesn’t matter what you think, the statistics are quite clear.

“Because the gun control in California is a joke and their streets have plenty of them.”

No the gun control there is very strict as apposed to anywhere else in the united states. The reason it has such a high fatality rate for gun violence is because bad people have the guns.Your idea is to take all the guns from the good people and how do you get the bad ones to get rid of theirs? We have more of an issue with the police shooting innocent unarmed people than we do of bad guys killing innocent people.

Well there is the difference, we have a whole shit load of bad guys walking around with guns here. The police are too fucking scared to mess with the gangs. So instead they go shoot children, and get away with it because that Nintendo Wii controller the 10 year old had looked like a gun. We lock away potheads by the thousands, while prescription pills are killing more people than the guns here. We slap DUI offenders with traffic citations and force them to go to 2 day rehabilitation schools to learn the dangers of drinking and driving. You can literally walk up to a DCF officer and tell them you have a huuuuge addiction to prescription medicines and that your high as a kite while your talking to him he will simply say “So?” you get caught with a simple seed of marijuana and your off to prison. Private prisons make tons of money this way. But yea take my legally owned gun that i will use for protection only and let all the bad guys go on a fucking murder spree with no one willing to attempt to stop it.

We cant find the simple criminals here on our own streets but somehow if we just keep giving up privacy and rights eventually we might find one and it will all have been worth it. Were only into what around 23 years of the internet age and still trying to find that one single terrorist after all of this money and privacy given away? 23 years, hundreds of billions invested, 0 gains. Lets give em more!

“This is a British organization. Doesn’t affect France, Germany, Spain, … This is the choice of the UK population (they are quite peculiar over there).”

This wasnt the choice of the people. It was the choice of the government over there doing as they please, taking a cue from the good ole red white and blue.

OMGWTFAIL

Call another locksmith…

IKROWNI

That’s right, they should call another locksmith. Maybe one that’s actually on the governments payroll instead of forcing a company that is not employed by the government to create stuff for them. Nice to see your finally coming around and making some sense. At least now you’re starting to understand that the government shouldn’t be allowed to bully a corporation to bend to its will and create something that isn’t their job to create.

OMGWTFAIL

In your hypothetical, you could call another locksmith. In this case, Apple is the only one with the software, which was already written for testing of the encryption algorithm they use. They don’t have to do anything but sign the code and install it on the phone. Why is Apple protecting the supposed rights (which were voided when he committed war crimes) of a mass murderer? We are not asking Apple to even let the device leave Apple’s headquarters. This is literally the worst PR move they have ever made. Won’t be buying from them again.

IKROWNI

I never have and never will buy an apple device but i can see this is nothing more than a power grab by the government as usual. Your just to thick to understand that.

You have no proof that apple has any tools that can be used to open this device. It would be dumb for them to even keep anything of the sort laying around. For what? Someone to eventually leak it or steal it somehow or be bullied into it like is happening now.

And how would software that tests the encryption help anyways? The encryption is meant to be unbeatable. If apple can beat it then its beatable. Therefore apple is not the only ones that can beat it. If they used software to make sure it cant be beaten then that software was not capable of beating it. GET IT!?

OMGWTFAIL

They can apply a test version of their OS used for specifically security testing.

OMGWTFAIL

I don’t agree with you at all.

Chris Daly

Why are they targeting just Apple? Does Android not have similar functionality?

Yes, but Apple makes the biggest political statement of all tech companies. In addition, I would wager to bet that Android’s encryption is already broken; Apple makes their money by selling hardware for several times its actual value while Google makes its money by selling what amounts to “you” as a product. You can’t mine that data if it’s all encrypted.

Chris Daly

Nothing you said makes any sense.

IKROWNI

Apple devices with a certain OS come encrypted from the get go, Android devices on the other hand you have to enable the encryption yourself. I think android actually just started making all devices with marshmallow encrypted by default as well i’m not 100% sure on that though.

magnuslu

Breaking News!
Apple has just announced the iBank! In order to protect its customers, including dead or suspected terrorists, it has announced that it will not share any transaction details with law enforcement even if were asked to do so. “Customers have the right to keep data away from prying eyes” , says Apple in a statement. All financial data will be encrypted and will only be accessible by its customers with a valid password. When asked whether they would abide with any exceptions Apple stressed that “If we were to get the data for any customer, it would be immediately possible for any crook anywhere in the world to gain access to any law abiding citizen’s sensitive information. That goes against our corporate values”. We have reached out to bank executives from other banks and they expressed astonishment that Apple would bring such innovative services to the market and stated that they will launch similar products, unless Apple has sought a patent for it, of course.

No, this is more like the bank being forced to create a code that can unlock any valut on the planet and handing it out to LEOs all over the country. Can’t possibly go wrong, can it?

magnuslu

Do you seriously believe that Apple has not been testing brute force attacks on its encryption algorithm on the iPhone bypassing the commercial number of retries? They most certainly already have the software to comply! This is nothing but a marketing ploy.

Why can’t Apple just do this on a case by case basis? It seems from what I am getting here is that once Apple creates some unlock tool to unlock the phone, the government is just going to want to unlock all phones for reason I am not sure of. Why can’t they just unlock the phone, copy the needed files pertaining to the investigation on to another phone and just give that one to the FBI? Again, case by case. Maybe erase/destroy the tool thereafter? Seems that once the tool is created, all of a sudden the government wants it.

Bluetooth

Because the defence has to be able to get copy of the software and method the evidence is optained to verify it’s validity. Once out you dont think spies will get hold of it.

IKROWNI

All it would take is someone at the top to have this on a private server at home and boom its everywhere. Not like this hasn’t happened before right?

Marc GP

As can also leak the source code of iOS. It will only take a few hours to remove a couple of lines and compile that customized version that allows a brute force attack.

Apple having this tool (which I’m certain they already have running in their labs) doesn’t suppose any increment of risk. If someone hacks Apple Servers they can already get the information to very easily build this tool themselves.

IKROWNI

Why would apple even burden themselves with having software to decrypt it? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Lets take our time to write out the code that we don’t ever want to even use or have control of? If they just didn’t burden themselves to write the software to decrypt them then they should have no legal obligation to comply with shit. Its the same way as how a VPN that keeps no logs doesn’t have to comply with shit cause they don’t have anything to comply with. Its not there, not available. The government wants it built then they should have to do it themselves. Its not apples job to build things for the government they are not employees of the government.

Like i keep telling you there is no reason why apple would want to waste time and money building this decrypting software that would only ever be used against apple. It just makes no sense, if anyone ever got a hold of it that would be it for them as far as security goes. Why would they ever even build it for themselves.

Marc GP

If Apple wants to do business on a country they have to obey the laws of that country.

And that includes cooperating with the police when a judge orders a warrant for a legitimate criminal investigation.

Apple is not above the law.

You confuse the legitimate decryption of a device on a criminal investigation under judicial guarantees with the indiscriminate spying of law-abiding citizens. We are only talking about the first case here.

IKROWNI

I understand they have a warrant. But what is the warrant for? If apple doesn’t have anything to give then WTF are they suppose to do about it? A warrant doesn’t state that a company now has to perform work for the government. It just entitles the government to take what they need for an investigation. If there isn’t something already there then there isn’t anything for apple to help with.

Do you perhaps own a 20lb bar of gold that you keep in a safe?

If so and the government has a warrant they can force you to turn that gold over to them for evidence.

If not then what the fuck are you going to do? Can they make you head down to the stream with your panning gear and get to work making it for them?

You are wrong, a warrant can force a bank to break a vault and let them access to its content. So a warrant can also force Apple to break a device and let them access to its content.

It’s exactly the same.

But don’t worry, you don’t have to take my word. Lets just wait a few months and see. Because this is going to go to Court and we all know what the Court will decide, right ?.

It doesn’t look very well for Apple.

IKROWNI

In this example Apple is the bank and the FBI wants apple to have something they want on the inside that was never created.

Apple is giving the FBI the full tour of the bank, but there is nothing in it. They want apple to make something be in it. How can you get a warrant for an item that doesn’t exist?

Doesn’t a warrant have to state what the warrant is for? It can’t just say “This warrant is good for 1 free imaginary software” Offer valid 2/2016 – 5/2016

Marc GP

The warrant is simply for the data contained in the flash memory of the phone of the suspect investigated.

Of course this data exists.

IKROWNI

Ok and the key to get it does not exist.

Guess its time to get out the whip eh?

Marc GP

The key to open a vault could not exist either, the criminal could have destroyed it or refuse to give it up. The bank anyway will break the vault to allow access to its content.

IKROWNI

In this particular issue the phone is not owned by apple so it should not be expected of apple to open it for them. Make the owner of the company that owns the phone open it its his property.

Instead of thinking of this as a huge corporation and the FBI think about this for a second as an average citizen and the police.

You go on craigslist and advertise that you are selling a safe made out of 3′ of the hardest material known that has a 4 pin combination lock on it that locks out after 3 attempts.

You meet up with me and i purchase the safe from you.

I get home with the open safe and reach in and set my new pin number that you have no idea what it is.

All of a sudden the police knock on my door with a warrant for the safe and its contents.

I go to pull my cellphone out to call my lawyer and a cop shoots me thinking i went for a gun.

Now court time comes up and the judge orders the police to go to your home and get the pin number.

But you don’t know the pin number, i changed it before they shot me remember?

Open the safe Mr. Guillot. It is your responsibility to open this safe. Don’t tell us you don’t have the pin and that you don’t have the tools to unlock it we don’t care create one. You sold it you have to have a way into it right?

You cant break in without damaging the contents completely. It will take you years to guess the correct pin number which you don’t have. Come on how do you go about this?

jack324

This is exactly the case. Nobody has the key. And even if Apple is able to create a way to recover the data from a locked iPhone, it would be incredibly damaging for their business to do so. This is where undue burden comes into play. If Apple is forced to try to make the tool they will run into one of two scenarios;

1) they figure out a way, but now their promise for the past two years that each and every phone running iOS 8 and above is uncrackable is shot to hell. Everyone knows that apples devices have been broken, and a large percentage of potential customers will never buy an iPhone again. This has the potential to cost Apple billions of dollars in sales alone.

2) they fail at making the tool, and are now at the mercy of the courts to decide whether Apple made a true and honest effort to solve an impossible problem or if it has intentionally failed. And with our court judges being horribly out of touch with the current state of technological progress, they’re probably not going to believe Apple when they say it simply cannot be done. Add to this the loss of sales from people who view collaboration with the government in this way to be the same as working to help undermine the rights of the citizens and Apple still loses money.

The only way for Apple to not take a huge blow from this court order is if the order is lifted entirely.

What Marc fails to understand is that the data cannot be read if the encryption is strong enough. Anything over 256 bit encryption is pretty much impossible to break unless the algorithm used to encrypt the data has a workable flaw. I don’t think Apple would make the mistake of allowing a flaw in its encryption algorithm. Therefore Apple is being asked to do the impossible and will be punished if it can’t.

LanceHarmstrong

I don’t get it. Why doesn’t the FBI just give the phone to their slightly darker skinned computer guy who can hack into it? It’s in all the TV shows!

Bluetooth

And the skinny guy is really an FSB agent

Kojen Ku

Suspend u.s. sales of apple products and levy $1 million a day on Apple retro back to the day of the receipt of court order. No one single company or individual can be above the law and the national security.

IKROWNI

Fuck off terrorist we know you just want the software so you can steal it from an unsecure server to spy on us as well.

jack324

Sure if the stakes were that high, but they’re not. Its a little info that may not even exist, and even if it does probably won’t be worth anything anymore. There is no justice here, only power hungry politicians using the loss of 14 good people as moral grounds to create a legal precedent for the backdoors they couldn’t get passed in Congress.

ncgmac

Not really true. The laws already exists, therefore they have passed Congress. The court order to Apple is based on these existing laws(in regards to the data on the phone.) which is why there is a lot of argument about what Apple is doing. Look at it this way, if you decided to ignore a court order odds are the only thing about it in the news would be your arrest. The real question is can the government compel a private person/company to provide them free service whenever they demand it. There is no legal question that the government has the right to the phone data, just how it goes about retrieving it.

IKROWNI

Forcing apple to do this would be slavery. Doesn’t matter how you look at it. They are trying to force someone to do something against their will.

John Cressman

The lack of understanding on all technology issues by ANY of the candidates is STAGGERING given that our society is now completely and irrevocably dependent on technology.

I guess it’s possible that the politicians are creating their sound bites based off the majority of the people not understanding the technology either, or the fact that the FBI bungled things by trying to change the iCloud password.

Who knows… but it would be nice to see the leader of our country with more technology knowledge than your average off the street person…

Glenn

If this is just about bypassing a password guess limit then I don’t see why Apple couldn’t keep the “special” OS locked in a closet and use the FBI’s brute force algorithm in house and deliver them the data when completed. I’m guessing the FBI would rather not share their password technology? Irony.

John Montemarano

The Paris attacks were assisted with the use of PlayStation Network using PS4s. I think people should boycott PS4s and start buying XboxOnes instead. Plus XboxOne has more and better exclusives than PS4.

RandomMonkey

After reading the mass of comments below, I have to agree, this whole thing is just a ploy, I mean think about it, the entire ROM is encrypted, there is more than likely a plaintext version of the passwords hash, even then, a encrypted version, what is stopping them from learning or just asking apple to specifications / structure of the rom, provide them the key to decrypt the hash and then just bruteforce it.

Seriously bruteforcing is shit easy to just do, why has the nsa not just took a break from spying to just unlock the phone, they have enough computing power to probably cycle through 2^256/512 hashes within seconds, costly but they have the tech to do it. this is clearly about making a new precedent to which all companies comply with a public view. Im not american, but this is my point of view for sharing :)

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