Originally posted by 2cent
I thought he had been captured by iraqi extremists and let go the first time, but it was the iraqi police that captured him. Why did they capture an
american anyway? I thought that if he an been set free and still continued to stay in iraq looking for contract work, he must be greedy.

Don't be too hard on yourself. We live and learn on this site.

I can only speak for myself when I say the only truly greedy people are the ones that have everything already, but still want more. Nick Berg did not
strike me as that type. He looked like a young man with true entrepenurial spirit, trying to make a better life for his family.

As to why this man was detained originally, I haven't heard much yet and what I have heard is contradictory.

WAKE UP! This is what our enemy would have in store for each and every one of us. YES, THIS MEANS YOU. I find it shameful that it takes acts
like this to make people realize the mentality we're fighting.

WAKE UP! All the cries for impeachment of Bush, resignation of Rumsfeld, and withdrawl from Iraq are exactly what they want to hear as a result of
these actions. After all, it worked like a charm in Spain. Even if, God forbid, all of this were to come to pass, you know what? They would
still hate us, and become even further emboldened to attack us. This divisiveness and cowardice are unbecoming of any American, liberal
or conservative. I have no doubt our founding fathers are presently rolling in their respective graves.

WAKE UP! Where's all the people that questioned the Zacarwi (sp?)-Al Qaeda connection to Iraq? Surprise! Looks like you were wrong the whole
time.

WAKE UP! Let's be realistic, folks. There are certainly other, less dangerous ways to make money in this world. I'm quite certain there are radio
towers in peaceful countries that needed servicing just the same. The man wanted to help, and for his kindness he was repaid with an agonizing death
at the hands of these animals who want to be thought of as 'civilized'.

WAKE UP! Where were this man's rights as a prisoner? Where is all the moral outrage so generously outpoured for the 'poor Iraqi prisoners'? Was
it all used up on them? Is there none left? These savages were standing there, with assault rifles. Had they posessed even the faintest vestige of
human decency, they could have merely shot him, quickly. That's war, that's expected. Instead they chose to hack him up with the middle eastern
equivalent of a butter knife. Is this the culture that we need to be so mindful and respectful of?

Now that you're all awake, take a few seconds to contemplate the fact that if the war on terrorism is lost, this is what the future holds for each
and every one of us--from the youngest child to the oldest grandparent. That's right, your family. Do not let this war, or the actions of
our enemy divide us into petty squabbling factions as has become so commonplace in the world today. We must stand together against terrorism, else we
all become victims.

Originally posted by Q
WAKE UP! This is what our enemy would have in store for each and every one of us.

Can you please define your version of the enemy?

WAKE UP! All the cries for impeachment of Bush, resignation of Rumsfeld, and withdrawl from Iraq are exactly what they want to hear as a result of
these actions.

* The longstanding issues of blatant criminality of the Bush administration are what leads to this assessment, not the actions of extreme
terrorists.

WAKE UP! Al Qaeda connection to Iraq?

* 'Freedom fighters' and lowlives including terrorists from many backwaters and holes have heeded a call to join in resistance of the occupation in
Iraq. The US is also a location with terrorist cells. What specifically is the connection, that shows the State endorses this? The state in Iraq is a
provisional coalition authority with an American heading it - is that what you mean?

WAKE UP! The man wanted to help, and for his kindness he was repaid with an agonizing death at the hands of these animals who want to be thought of
as 'civilized'.

* It seems to me that his detention and movements after release, and his being a Jewish American, contributed to his macabre demise. Probably the
murderers don't care much for labels of civilised or uncivilised.

WAKE UP! Where were this man's rights as a prisoner? Where is all the moral outrage so generously outpoured for the 'poor Iraqi prisoners'? Was
it all used up on them? Is there none left? Is this the culture that we need to be so mindful and respectful of?

* The symbolism is that it is a halal killing, that the human being being slaughtered is no different than an animal fit to be eaten, abhorrent though
that is. How this event may be used is also cause for outrage.

Now that you're all awake, take a few seconds to contemplate the fact that if the war on terrorism is lost, this is what the future holds for each
and every one of us--from the youngest child to the oldest grandparent.

* I disagree with that entirely. The "war" on terrorism is already lost, it was lost from the start. You cannot win a war against an abstract noun.
If you are a hateful people and you define your enemy as someone definable that you hate, you have a better chance. Is that what you are? This is just
a war of hate and greed. But time for another strategy, perhaps.

I really find it somewhat funny that someone from France would lecture Americans on war....

Let me say this, what these vile men did to this American was completely wrong on so many levels. What we need to do is stop being a panzy military
and start kickin some serious a$$.

I suppose we should have just turned the other cheeck when the towers fell on 9/11, right? Why wouldn't France support America when it came to
removing Saddam without force? Why did France campaign other nations to vote against us in the UN vote? Why, because you guys were hiding something
and we found out. You were receiving oil in exchange for arms and information for years.

Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive had he not been detained by U.S.
officials in Iraq without being charged and without access to a lawyer.

Nick Berg, a small telecommunications business owner, spoke to his parents on March 24 and told them he would return home on March 30. But Berg was
detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24. He was turned over to U.S. officials and detained for 13 days.

His father, Michael, said his son wasn't allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer.

FBI agents visited Berg's parents in West Chester on March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity. On April 5, the
Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was
released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated.

Michael Berg said he blamed the U.S. government for creating circumstances that led to his son's death. He said if his son hadn't been detained for
so long, he might have been able to leave the country before the violence worsened.

Most of people prisonners in US prisons in Iraq even dont know what they have done, or what they are accused to.

Now, it's you, the savages, the barbarians, the torturers...

You should better let Saddam to power !

Nans, you are the most whacked out woman I've ever known. Did you know that the prisoners in that prison are the worst of the worst over there?
They know what they are there for. Your statement is untrue.

We are barbarians? Gee, our president is appalled, the idiot apologized to the Arab world! You know the Arab world, the ones who have commited how
many atrocities against us the last few decades; how many times has any Arab leader apologized? Well, I suppose they really can't when they
sponsor the terror, and I guess they dare not when their people back the violence. And you call us the barbarians? Back off, you don't think before
you type, you just spread your propaganda.

While I'm at it, I don't want to hear any Frenchman tell me a thing about Vietnam!

Sorry, I didn't see my above stated thoughts had already been covered. I was just getting a little sick to teh stomach, reading the same old America
is Bad stuff from Nans and curme, and responded before I saw there was a dozen pages already.

"And your right Jedi...just where is that liberal, anti-war, anti-Bush condemnation at this?"

right here.

We killed people.
So now they are killing us.

This act is no more shocking than the totalitarian indiscriminate carpet bombing of Baghdad.

I'm sorry you don't like to see Americans getting their heads chopped off. I don't like it either, but frankly I can't understand anyone's
outrage.

You went to war. People get killed in wars. Civilians get shot in wars. Prisoners are murdered and tortured in wars. Hospitals full of sick children
get accidentally blown up in wars. Your sons, daughters and friends come home in coffins shrouded in the stars and stripes in wars. Kids and pregnant
women get shot in the head by your own side in wars. In wars your own side often blows up its own people. People make mistakes that cost lives in
wars. Countries get destroyed in wars, and reprisal attacks happen for hundreds of years after wars are "over" Presidents lie during wars, some of
your Good and true soldiers turn out to be racist a-holes in wars, Company's use wars to make profits out of the blood of the fallen, and people get
their heads chopped off on television in wars.

There's no point expressing outrage at any of this. Its what you get if you go to war.

If you don't like any of those things, maybe you should consider alternatives to war.

Originally posted by ImAlreadyPsycho
So far that is the only story I have seen about this incident. If true, it is extremely sick. I say we pull our troops and let those (censored)
psychotic (censored) kill each other without our help.

That's such a ridiculus generalisation. Just because a few sick extreme islamics execute a western guy doesn't mean every Iraqi deserves to be
abandoned to death and suffering. Its just like saying all american soldiers are sick abusers of prisioners, where in fact it is a tiny minority.

I'm sorry you don't like to see Americans getting their heads chopped off. I don't like it either, but frankly I can't understand anyone's
outrage.

There's no point expressing outrage at any of this. Its what you get if you go to war.

If you don't like any of those things, maybe you should consider alternatives to war.

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Simon]

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by Simon]

OK, just so I understand you completely...

Following your line of reasoning, there is absolutely no reason to express outrage for the /abuse/mistreatment/torture of the Iraqi prisoners at the
hands of the Americans in the Abu Ghraib prison. What happened there is OK with you.

Correct? After all, that is what war is all about, according to you, correct?

Yes. That is what war is about. If they came up with a new sort of war that allowed you to force other country's to behave as you want them to which
DIDN'T involve killing torturing raping burning blowing up mutilating humiliating and killing the enemy then I'd sign up for it in an instant.

Unfortunately we're stuck with what we've got, and all the things in my original post happen when you have a war.

If you are outraged by these things then you should consider removing your support for the war and pushing the government to look for alternatives.

You cannot support this war unless you are ok with the fact that these things will happen.

al Qaeda. al Sadr and his followers. The "freedom fighters" that are destroying the good works of our troops, and destroying the Iraqi people's
future by setting the oil pipelines on fire.

* The longstanding issues of blatant criminality of the Bush administration are what leads to this assessment, not the actions of extreme
terrorists.

So if there were no actions by extreme terrorists, and Iraq was being rebuilt successfully, the outrage and outcry would be the same as it is
today?

by Q:
WAKE UP! Al Qaeda connection to Iraq?

* 'Freedom fighters' and lowlives including terrorists from many backwaters and holes have heeded a call to join in resistance of the occupation in
Iraq. The US is also a location with terrorist cells. What specifically is the connection, that shows the State endorses this? The state in Iraq is a
provisional coalition authority with an American heading it - is that what you mean?

Not entirely. al Qaeda was there before the CPA, and sanctioned by Hussein. How about:

1. The ricin-handling training camps in NE IRAQ
2. The amputation-surgery performed on the leg of the upper-level al Qaeda operative, from injuries he suffered in Afghanistan. Surgery was
performed in a Baghdad hospital
3. The downtown office occupied by al Qaeda, for "communications".

* It seems to me that his detention and movements after release, and his being a Jewish American, contributed to his macabre demise. Probably the
murderers don't care much for labels of civilised or uncivilised.

Thank you. Before that pearl of wisdom, I was searching unsuccessfully for a valid reason for his beheading.

* I disagree with that entirely. The "war" on terrorism is already lost, it was lost from the start. You cannot win a war against an abstract
noun.

You're right. It makes much more sense to strictly define your enemy in this war. Otherwise, when another group, such as Native Americans, or
Chinese, or Canadians (sarcasm on, here) decides to blow up the Lincoln Tunnel, then you have to come up with another abstract noun to define them. Or
two. Or three. And who wants to go through all that paperwork?

Bzzzzzz wrong there Thomas. According to the Red Cross, up to 90% of the prisoners were wrongly imprisoned. Even in barbaric situations there is still
the onus on the US to act in a morally superior manner.

"'90 percent of the captives are caught by mistake,' reads the report and stats that systematic tortures are more than what is already known. "
www.zaman.org...

The failure of the Americans to live up to their own professed higher moral ground, is what is shocking, not to mention the stupidity of filming it
and then publicising it.

Now taking that moral high ground then showing that it was all a fake, especially as they KNEW about it long ago, and that worse has been committed,
put the US as partly responsible for the reactions of the Iraqi's today (not that I am trying to defend the barbaric act of today)

Its the Amerian incompetence and poor planning that is losing the peace, after winning the war.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Nans, you are the most whacked out woman I've ever known. Did you know that the prisoners in that prison are the worst of the worst over there?
They know what they are there for. Your statement is untrue.

If you are outraged by these things then you should consider removing your support for the war and pushing the government to look for alternatives.

You cannot support this war unless you are ok with the fact that these things will happen.

First of all, I must have misunderstood you; I thought that you were outraged at the treatment of the Abu Ghraib prisoners, and that the GWB
administration was at fault.

I am not outraged with any of it. I realize that this is what happens in war. The lack of outrage by the world community for this, after their loud
outrage at the prison happenings, I find mildly amusing and wildly hypocritical. Is what you meant by alternatives? Diplomacy and working with the
world community?

I am outraged by War.
I don't believe it is a good thing in any situation what so ever and believe that a society that can find no alternative to killing its own kind is
one which I don't really want to be associated with.

What happens in war does not astonish, shock or outrage me because the act is fundamentally outrageous. If I saw footage of UK officers using babies
as silencers it would not shock me. I would just think "oh yes, there’s that war thing I loathe so much"

As to alternatives to war There are plenty. The easiest is of course submission. You may think the idea of submitting to the enemy’s demands is
outrageous but that’s what we are asking Al Quaeda to do, so we shouldn't really be shocked that they're not going for it.

Personally I would like to see a more long term plan to redistribute wealth between countries. I think that would be a good place to start in the
removal of "wars" from this planet.

The US Government let Nick Berg be killed.....he was a US prisoner, after all. (Notice the Orange standard issue jump suit for all prisoners he's
wearing in the photo ).
It's starting to piece together that maybe the militants in the photo were US.
I'm starting a thread on it now,

, but here's something that that "evil media" is not reporting: On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in
federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military in Iraq.

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