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I've been looking at some pre owned uprights, and i'm wondering, what are some brands that i should definelty stay away from??And also, some cheap priced pianos really stunned me.Such as, alot of Baldwins, Pearls And River, Kimball, Young Chang, and so i was wondering, what brands should i definetlly avoid, I'm looking for a piano that would sound good playing pop, like Yiruma's music, and that can last me at LEAST 8-10 years.

Hi musicxfreakk, welcome to the forum. I think any of the brands you mentioned should last you 8-10 years. (That's assuming you meant "Pearl River", not Pearls and River ).

Rather than specific brands, the factors I would look for in shopping for a used upright are:

1.) Age. Here, the younger the better, and I would try to buy something no more than 10-15 years old.

2.) Height. Avoid spinets (pianos shorter than 42" or so). Technicians hate to work on them, and they won't sound as nice as a taller console or studio. The one exception is if you can find a Baldwin acrosonic spinet, which are generally regarded as pretty good spinets. But also avoid the extremely tall uprights, as they tend to be very old (80-100 years old) and usually not good for musical purposes.

3.) Gray market pianos. These are Asian pianos originally sold in Japan and then imported into the U.S. These can be good pianos (and good deals), but there can be pitfalls in shopping for them. Having them inspected by a technician prior to agreeing to purchase is essential. Search the archives for "gray market" or "grey market" for more info.

Originally posted by musicxfreakk: the only reason i buying a used one is because of my budget, i dont think i'll be able to get a person to check it specifically.-.- [/b]

Sorry, I think our latest posts crossed in siber space. A tech might not cost as much as you think. A visit on your own will rule out a lot of used instruments that are not worthy of carrying home. If you absolutely can't hire a tech, consider asking your piano teacher of church pianist if they would go with you.

In my own experience these folks were very happy to help out. In many instances they have shopped for pianos in the past..... Perhaps they could offer some insight into the pitfalls of the instrument before you.

If money is an issue.... You certainly can't afford to spend your hard earned dollars on junk ---- there is plenty of that for sale under the words: USED PIANO.

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You can own a Chickering, Christifori, or Steinway, but if you can't play it.... It is just a piece of eye candy.

yes, i know to actually get the best cheapest instrument i can get, i have to go and see it myself, but i cant get a ride, considering my uncle is a butthead so im on my own.I saw many cheap chickerings as well.So far, people recommended kawais,yamahas, acrosonic, and chickerings. alrighty.also, if i get a digital, which one should i get that will last me for 3-5 years at least?as in, it's realistic and good enough to last 3-5 years.thankyou=DD

Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist. That would be fine for most people for the first few years.

A used Yamaha P22 school piano is the first real piano anyone should consider paying real money for. This is the secret of the piano industry. Rick Jones cannot keep them in stock. Used P22s come up periodically on craigslist for around $2000. I saw one as low as $1000, but it did not last long.

used vertical pianos older than say 20 years old, should be ignored, a higher end digital offers more value, better action and sound in most cases for a better price point. Unless you are looking at name brands, that in their heyday(sp?) were expensive....and have been kept up.

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Kenny BlankenshipSelling anything anyone will buy as the "Walmartizisation of the industry continues. (Still making a fair living and still having clients like me)

Samick, Young Chang, Suzuki (really, don't go there!), and Mason and Risch (I've played several of the last and notice they have problems on a consistent basis.) And Casios for digital piano, or any digital piano with a detachable pedal for that matter.)

Originally posted by ThreeBees: Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist. That would be fine for most people for the first few years.

A used Yamaha P22 school piano is the first real piano anyone should consider paying real money for. This is the secret of the piano industry. Rick Jones cannot keep them in stock. Used P22s come up periodically on craigslist for around $2000. I saw one as low as $1000, but it did not last long. [/b]

With all due respect, have you looked at pianos in the last 20 years? All of those brands are real piano companies other than Gulbransen and should be acceptable pianos for 20-30 years or more. None of these are noise makers. What an insult to the entire Koean piano business.

I've come across a lot of shitty great name pianos and some real surprises among those who were *not*

One particular Young Chang grand comes to mind: when the Korean customer for a new Estonia offered it to us, I almost declined. She had brought it along form Korea and wanted to replace it as it was 10 years "old" to her - too old for her ethnical view of things....

Little did I know this particular piano to almost rival one of our own Sauters when it arrived here.....

If your budget is really that limited, I would recommend a digital. Perhaps a Casio PX series or Yamaha P series. The Casio would likely cost less. Either will last several years. No tuning needed (saves more money - which you could put toward a future acoustic piano). I have a Casio. It has a decent feeling action, but it sounds like crud (to me, anyway.) The Yamaha sounds a bit better, but it is also more money.

If you do decide to go with the acoustic, then you really need to pay a tech to check it out for you first. With used pianos, it really is more about individual instruments and how they've been maintained over the years than about brands. Find one you like at a price you can afford. If the tech says it's okay, then buy it.

Originally posted by ThreeBees: Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist. That would be fine for most people for the first few years.

A used Yamaha P22 school piano is the first real piano anyone should consider paying real money for. This is the secret of the piano industry. Rick Jones cannot keep them in stock. Used P22s come up periodically on craigslist for around $2000. I saw one as low as $1000, but it did not last long. [/b]

Thank you for repeating my post Mr. Treibitz. The more times it is drummed into the piano consumers head the better piano they will get. So you have me insulting the Korean race. Nice twist.

But it is not just me who has this opinion. Larry Fine in the 1994 issue completely trashes Young Chang and Samick as junk and lauds Yamaha as "superb, virtually perfect, rather spectacular" as I have quoted in another thread.

But here is a better question for you Mr. Treibitz. Instead of talking up the junk brands, why don't you just sell the good ones? By your signature you carry every inferior brand new but only carry the quality brands use. Why don't you just become a dealer of the good brands and then you would not be insulted by criticism of the sub-standard inferior stuff.

But here is a better question for you Mr. Treibitz. Instead of talking up the junk brands, why don't you just sell the good ones? By your signature you carry every inferior brand new but only carry the quality brands use. Why don't you just become a dealer of the good brands and then you would not be insulted by criticism of the sub-standard inferior stuff. [/b]

ThreeBees,

Since some of your posts state opinions formed by checking out pianos at Rick Jones Piano, you might want to ask Rick the same question. Rick sells boatloads of ancient Yamahas and Kawais. He references his blowout prices on those 20 to 30-year-old pianos by comparing them to the MSRP of the nearest new equivalent (even though he doesn't sell them). Pretty cheesy, don't you think?

Among Rick Jones' new piano offerings are the Royale, the August Hoffman, and the May-Berlin. All are from China. Two of the three are store stencils. Why doesn't Rick sell new Yamaha and Kawai pianos instead of that "inferior" stuff? Probably you should ask him.

Glenn Treibetz sells lines at a lot of different pricepoints. Some may be better than others, but none of them are junk. If Glenn wanted to bother with the likes of you, he could easily defend his brands and his business. But why should he bother with a loud-mouthed immature individual who wishes to shout out what he has garnered from the 1994 Larry Fine book and from hanging out at Rick Jones Piano? I can't think of a reason. Can You?

The owner of this site would like the content of this forum to be of a quality that members would be willing to pay a fee for if help is needed for its upkeep. Unfortunately, people like you who insult anyone here who owns any piano other than those specified in his personal mantra can tear down the good work that a lot of members accomplish here. That's a shame.

I visited a former church a few months ago for a homecoming service and they had purchased a new Young Chang 5 foot baby grand since I was there last; it sounded surprisingly good. After the service, while they were having dinner, I slipped back to the sanctuary and tried it out. It was a very nice sounding and playing piano. About as far from junk as the east is from the west.

Take care,

Rick

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Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

Originally posted by ThreeBees: Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist. That would be fine for most people for the first few years.

[/b]

Hmmm... I'm curious as to the context of that. Are you basing those brand reviews on opinion or fact?

I tried the Pearl River and the fit 'n finish didn't work for me, but it was purely opinion: if I wanted to spend 4 grand on a 5-7 small grand, it's probably worth the cash.

Y-C I won't respond to, since my Pramberger P185 was manufactured by Young Chang. I'd put the RedPiano up against a same size (6-1) Kawai. It's an Awesome instrument that we won't see the likes of again. (and two years of butt-time on the bench means I can probably speak from fact on the quality of the piano.)

Back to basics musicxfreakk what I would say to do on a low budget is go and see and play several pianos you see on craigslist until you know you've seen several you don't like and several you do like. Also look at some stores, where you can play pianos right next to each other.

Then, hire a tech to see one or two that you like the most. Don't worry about age of the piano. Some ten year old pianos are played heavily and some seventy year old pianos have been kept in good shape and in a good climate. I think Texas is a good climate for pianos.

I have to admit that I have bought three pianos without having an independent tech looking at them. I think I have been lucky, since I've been happy with them all. I would recommend doing that only if looking at something in the sub-1000 dollar range, just because there's not all that much to lose in that range as long as the piano sounds and feels good when you look at it on your own. Above 1000 dollars I would have a tech look at it.

It's also possible to just learn a little about pianos on your own for free so that if you can't afford hiring a tech then you at least know of some big potholes to avoid. You can check out the soundboard for example and what shape the hammers are in, and you can be more aware of how a loose old action feels when you push the keys from side to side. This won't guarantee you avoid all problems but it may be a step above taking a church pianist along with you to look.

Another thing is, assuming you can tell whether a piano is in tune or not, to ask when the last time they tuned it was. If it was within the last two years and it sounds badly out of tune that's a bad sign. If it's badly out of tune at all, actually, it's a bad sign, but if it's a bit out of tune but is a relatively new piano then it's a good bet that the pins are still tight and will hold a tuning.

Also avoid pianos that people have been storing in garages, unless it has been there only a short amount of time.

Acrosonics are good and they have nice tone. Some people including myself really like the tone of older Baldwins like Acrosonics and Baldwin Hamiltons. The later Hamiltons had inferior tone compared to those of the '50s and earlier, IMO.

Originally posted by CozyWriter:Hmmm... I'm curious as to the context of that. Are you basing those brand reviews on opinion or fact?

It seems you do not know who Larry Fine is. If you look to the right of this post you might see an add for his book on the Piano World site.

And since you will not take the time to figure out who he is and read his book I will retype it for you here.

Larry Fine is the author of "The Piano Book" which has rated piano brands for more than the past 20 year and is the only such book available.

In the 1994 edition Larry Fine completely trashed Samick and Young Chang as junk and lauded Yamaha as "superb, virtually perfect, rather spectacular."

Larry Fine on Samick: "Samick entered the US market in the late 1970s ... These first pianos reacted very poorly to the climatic extremes of North America ... with wooden parts warping, cracking and binding. Many of them had to be sent back to Korea. Throughout most of the 1980s Samick pianos were very erratic in quality. Many were plagued with problems, requiring hours of repair and adjustment by the dealer. ... Although most technicians who were interviewed at that time condemned these pianos, some who were given latitude in servicing them and who were very experienced with them said they could be made into satisfactory instruments."

So unless you pay big bucks to rebuild the Samick junk its worthless.

Larry Fine on Young Chang: "The first Young Chang pianos to enter this country (US) in 1978, fell apart, as did all other Asian pianos before them, due to inadequate seasoning of the wood for our climatic extremes. Many of these pianos were sent back to Korea. Throughout the 1980s, Young Changs continually improved and by mid-decade, some technicians considered them to be satisfactory for casual or less serious use. However, the quality control was still quite inconsistent and some pianos had problems required a great deal of repair and adjustment by the dealer. ... improvement continues, but perhaps at a slower rate. ..."

And it goes on like that for several paragraphs, I am too lazy to type it all. In other words, Larry Fine says as of 1994 Young Changs and Samick are JUNK JUNK JUNK.

Larry Fine on Yamaha: "Yamaha has always had a reputation for superb quality control and virtually perfect preparation of the pianos in the factory. This is still essentially so, but with just a little less finesse than before, particularly in the American-make instruments. ... Technicians are enthusiastic about servicing Yamaha verticals, especially the uprights, which are considered rather spectacular pianos. ... "

If Young Chang and Samick finally learned to make proper pianos they did so in less than the last 15 years when Yamaha has been making the finest pianos for more that 100 years.

Here's some quotes about Samick."Quality control in Samick's Korean and Indonesian factory has been steadily improved, especially in the last few years, and the Indonesian products is said to be almost as good as the Korean. Many large-scale issue have been addressed and engineers are now working on smaller refinements.""Samick's upper-level pianos - K&C Millennium series, JP Pramberger, and Wm. Knabe - have met with a very positive response from technicians as to their musical design and performance, exceeding comparably priced pianos from Japan in that regard.""With good dealer prep, I recommend Samick-made pianos for average use."

Here's about Young Chang."The Platinum Edition and Albert Weber pianos have greater musical potential and respond well to expert voicing."

I cannot deny the fact that in the annual supplement, there's quality control issue addressed to the Koreans but that can't make one to rule out the Koreans as a choice.I can't deny as well that the Japanese (Yamaha and Kawai) are impressive pianos and they receive positive comments from Larry Fine.

And, IMHO, there should be a reason that YC is chosen by Steinway to build Essex.Other than that, we have to know about the connection of Mr. Pramberger's team with the Koreans.

Despite being regarded as subjective and something we should not care for, YC and Samick both have pianos at the same Tier with Yamaha C. But, as other would say, take the Tier system as a reference only, don't be serious about it.

Well, I hope I didn't quote too much from his book, but that can serve as an reference anyway. So, it's up to you to believe wise words from 1994 or 2008.

As Korean citizen and as a Young Chang owner, I am seriously offended by all of your past comments.[/b]

I doubt that ThreeBees' comments were intended to offend Koreans. Rather, he's pointing to the informed opinions of a respected author on the subject (Larry Fine).

ThreeBees says (referring to Larry Fine) that 1990's (and older) pianos from Korea had serious problems. Since the OP is considering a used piano, he might be well advised to stay away from those pianos.

The story might be very different for newer 2000's Korean pianos.

I would add that if the OP is looking for a used piano, he should DEFINITELY enlist the help of a piano tech to evaluate the piano. Even the best-name used pianos can be junk. Heavy use and lack of care/maintenance can ruin a piano, so the buyer had better beware. You need a piano tech to evaluate any used piano ... before buying.

I doubt that ThreeBees' comments were intended to offend Koreans. Rather, he's pointing to the informed opinions of a respected author on the subject (Larry Fine).[/b]

Horiwinkle,

You are correct. ThreeBees is not intending to offend Koreans. He/She is intending to offend everyone. Here is a collection of ThreeBees' comments during his/her short stay here.

Quote:

you might as well go with Yamaha the 100 year titan than with the 10 year gamble. Most people do not have the time or ability to figure that out.

Yamaha is the only piano anyone should every buy.

I repeat. Yamaha is the only piano anyone should ever buy.

The more times it is drummed into the piano consumers head the better piano they will get.

Yamaha has been making the finest pianos for more that 100 years.

Since Kawai is found in university practice rooms it could be considered. But after spending a day in Rick Jones piano shop and playing all the Yamaha and Kawai pianos he had there, I came to the concluded the Kawai does not sound as good. Therefore, I do not recommend it.

Do not buy Samick, Young-Chang, Pearl River, Gulbransen. These are furniture with a noise maker inside. Your are better off with a free piano off of craigslist.

I owned a Schafer & Sons upright piano for 15 year. They are made by Young Chang (Larry Fine 1994) and are therefore trash.

The dealer's advice on Piano World does not seem particularly useful in most cases.

But here is a better question for you Mr. Treibitz. Instead of talking up the junk brands, why don't you just sell the good ones? By your signature you carry every inferior brand new.

Let each person be the judge of his/her intelligence, intent, and attitudes toward other members.