Just a place to dump summaries of discussions on Discord, so that they aren't lost in the rush. To start with, overview of a lengthy discussion from earlier today/yesterday which lacked lead devs to weigh in on:

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Three Breton subcultures - Galenish (Elven-Influenced, Magic-Focused), Norvulki (Imperial-Influenced, Stealth-Focused), and Koeglin (Nord-Influenced, Combat-Focused). As all are still Breton, obviously they all make use of magic, but each have their leanings. Names are WIP, but Galenish is from the PE1.

Norvulki are Imperial-influenced despite being mostly along the Hammerfell border because it's where the Alessian Doctorines caught on in the First Era.

Koeglin are combat-leaning because they're mostly coastal (lots of physicality to sailing) and because many of their enemies (Nords, Orcs) are magic-resistant.

The combat/magic/stealth divide, while perhaps a bit arbitrary, gives the cutural distinction a bit of metatextual weight through the game mechanics that keeps them memorable.

High Rock has many, many Knightly Orders, and it'd be more than a little impractical to make all of them joinable. By reducing joinable ones to 6-12 with an even divide among subcultures/playstyles, you emphasize the variety while keeping content managable.

This is easy enough to justify because most small-town knightly orders have a lot of family history together and are basically private clubs, unwelcoming to outsiders. Larger orders from bigger cities are a bit more welcoming to new blood.

Possible Joinable Orders:
The Knights of the Dragon
The Knights of the Rose
The Order of the Heart
The Knights of the Storm
The Order of the Keep
The Witch Knights of Jehanna

Witch-Knights should be endemic to Breton culture as, aside from just being a cool phrase, its a distinct idea that gives the province something emblematic if its themes. They should be the "mid-point of wierdness," something too strange for the bigger, more modern cities, but not quite the true depths of eldritch strangeness of, say, the Reachmen. Common enough in smaller knightly orders of the back country where the old ways of doing things are more embraced. The Witch-Knights of Jehanna being the only large order bold enough to refer to themselves as such openly in 'polite society,' probably at least in part to sound scary to outsiders.
"Just the phrase "witch knight" conjures imagery simultaneously dignified and wild. And not in an elfy way. More in a kind of intimidating way, like a castle in some spooky woods."

"Actually, the more I think about it, the more High Rock feels in my head like the way Lovecraft saw New England. Everything is old and historied and you feel like there's something just beneath the surface that leaves a permanent feeling of unease."
"That's a GREAT way of handling High Rock."

Breton culture is highly occult, so like Cyrodiil it's likely a highly varied hodgepodge of cults and covens including Aedric, Daedric, and odder things like the Cult of the Worm, without too much focus on any one following, except perhaps the popularity of Magnus.

My Betony island plan. Small island, half of land fall into sea during warp of the west. Due to erosion, coast for a long time slowely falls into sea, but during warp there was really huge seastorm that broke a lot land with two fishman villages.
Currently what remain is under control of Daggerfall kingdom. There some old sentinel fort ruins, old direnni ruins on north. In direnni ruins player may find map that show that long ago betony was much bigger and had connection with mainland.
Main and now only town is Whitefort - new breton stronghold, some breton houses around. There also docks and lighthouse. Daggerfall has agreement with empire that island may serve as regular port for imperial ships and imperial navi ships and boats can stay here for free. There also low taxes so trade ships often visit this island for barter.

This will be a brief summary of the discord conversations in the HR section from roughly 6/12/17 - 6/16/17 EST

6/12/17

There was a conversation focused on the horsemen of the Bjoulsae greater region and their origins, culture and tents. There were many compared cultures referenced including the Cossacks, Scythians and Celtic horsemen of Gaul. It was also a popular concept that these horsemen are of very pure Nedic decent, out of reach of the Direnni during their reign in the inlands of Hammerfell and then pushed into High Rock by the invading Ra Gada. Wagon-Tents were discussed, inspired by the Scythian, but this concept was somewhat reject by Roerich, quote: "I think a camp made of wagon tents would look terrible tbh. Would remind you more of gypsies than celts. I cant see it working from an exterior designer POV"

A small detour for the discussion of the High Rock pantheon was taken, where I proposed the main temple locations of the Aedric pantheon in the major cities. This was fixed to include the other Breton Pantheon gods as well as the Orsimer Pantheon. The locations can be found and discussed under: 'HR_High_Rock_Discussion/Temple_Orders'.

This sparked a discussion about the Orsimer, their pantheon and their relation with the Direnni. The main question was if the Orsimer would be allowed on Baelfiera in order to worship the shine of Trinimac there. I thought it would be best if there was an element of unwelcomeness or even exclusion towards the Orsimer by the Mer population there do to the idea of Altmer purity but as a whole most people on the discord seemed to think the DIrenni would see this as an opportunity. There was also a debate one whether the Orsimer in Orsimium would be allowed to worship outside of the NEW Orsimer pantheon. Many people seemed to think it would be ok for Orsimer to worship the Nine Divines and to include other gods in the Orsimer Pantheon other than Trinimac/Orc heroes but ThomasRuz referred to the 'Orcish_Pantheon_V3.docx' as the WIP concept for Orsimer beliefs. Many people seem to think the Gortwog would have no concern for these ways, however, and in his quest to Imperialize the Orcs and push for Trinimac worship. This conversation probably needs to be properly resolved when further discussing the Orc's pantheon in more detail.

There was a short conversation about the Direnni Tower and what is in it. The consensus seems to be that the LARGE majority of the public areas of the Tower are in a exterior shell around the original tower which is its core. The throne room would be part of the original tower. There was mention of whether or not the tower should house the dead and this should be discussed further.

6/13/17

Nothing of significance happened on this day on the HR channel of Discord.

6/14/17

Most of Tuesday's conversation was pretty laid back and not very focused until the conversation about city sizes came up. I recommended Wayrest be larger and sited Anvil's size as an indication of 4 cells being too small (in reference to the current ThomasRuz map at the time [see 'HR_High_Rock_Discussion/Map_Discussion']) The consensus, however, was that realistically a large city could be a bad thing for the province and there was very little area to work with and a small city made to FEEL big would be just as effective. ThomasRuz made his newest (as of now) map's Wayrest 9 cells to indicate that it was a larger city than most in High Rock even if it will end up smaller than that after city planning is done.

There was talk of Gen Tem village, a cut village from TES:II that was tied to alot of Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood members. Most members in the discussion seemed to like the idea of adding the village and there were many ideas about where it would be or how it would work. To prominent ones was the idea of the village not appearing to the player unless they reached certain early milestones in the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood questlines (probably being introduced to the village's existence or being challenged to find it). The other popular idea was that the village would be underground along a river. Either way, the concept of a place to higher free lance or member assassins and thieves was receptive. R-Zero quote: "In the village, you can often spy masked nobles with their bodyguards".

Also R-Zero commented on adding the shadowkey settlements to the Bjoulsae/Dragonfields regions.

There was a small discussion about Ykalon being refereed to as 'burned down' during the Warp. This would reduce the amount of towns in that area while also adding a cool area for players to explore. Ykalon would be reclaimed by the swamp, full of spriggans and the undead remains of the order of the cup.

There was a discussion about the 6 full length questline Knight Orders I proposed under 'HR_High_Rock_Discussion/Knight_Orders'. Everyone seemed to like the concepts and there wasn't alot added to them during the discussion. ThomasRuz questioned whether the Order of the Heart should wear heavy armor if they were in crypts alot and it was decided that the heavy armor was more of a traditional hold over from back when the order didnt actually have to deal with shadow magic, when in the crypts many members wore much lighter equipment. Concept art and armor types were added to the original forum post through edits.

Mercenaries were touched upon while discussing the knights, favorites including Landskecht-esc Bjoulsae mercenaries as well as Genoese-esc Crossbowmen in Ravennia. Mercenary talk also led to a talk about the cut factions of the Mercenary Guild and Scenarist's Guild in TES:II. Both have decent lore for them and alot of potential. The Scenarist's Guild is located in the Dragontail mountains which would not be in HR427's territory but the idea of a questline involving the two rivals which never came to be in TES:II was popular. It should be noted the Mercanary Guild is said to have great influence over the Mage's guild in TES:II and is likely being fronted by an unknown force.

There was a conversation between just ThomasRuz and myself on Daedric Summonings in High Rock. In TES:II, there was only 1 day out of the year that you can summon a specific Daedra and only with the help of the Mage's Guild or a Witch Coven. We thought it would be a good idea to return to this idea but expand on how many ways you can achieve a summoning. I'll be making a forum post on that soon.

Roerich askes where King Dead Wolf-Deer will be placed in High Rock and ThomasRuz recommended Malekna Forest and if not there than maybe Gedalan.

6/15/17

There was a brief discussion on the locations of shadowkey. R-Zero added some of them to his map and decided to move them alittle more east toward Skyrim.

There was a decent conversation about the High Rock names that were inherited from TES:I and TES:II. Most of these names are not very creative (made through a basic random name generator) and are some what unappealing two part names (examples : Norvulk Hills, Dulain Falls, Raven Spring). It was put forward that these names should either be translated into Breton (see Stone Forest to Balmora for example of it in Morrowind) or it should be reduced to a one word name. This conversation did not have a resolution and should be explored again.

It was discussed that the colors of Haefingar and Jehanna should contrast eachother for a nice visual way of showing the conflict. The current concept of the Haefingar colors are harsh pure dark red, blue and purple with a wolf as the emblem. Colors that would contrast this well and fit our image of Jehanna would be muted earth tones with a deer emblem.

There was an idea about the Quill circus moving from city to city on a script but it was considered far to much work and much to clunky to be feasibly executed. We would see need to decide what city they are located in.

We had a brief conversation about Anticlere and Flyte. It was reestablished in the Discord after some confusion that WAYREST as in control of the city and not DAGGERFALL. Anticlere is one of the only cities from TES:II that is said to have a King so it is pretty clear that it was a kingdom before. The city was ruled by Lord Auberon Flyte during TES:II and it is likely he is dead from old age by TES:III. There was a discussion about Lady Flyte and Daggerfall possibly trying to front her claim to the throne to stick it to Wayrest but nothing concrete.

Orsinium was talked about for a short time. The regions of Dragontail Mountains and Mournoth are to be confirmed as Orsinium territory. I made a comment about the fact that the Orsinium territory was not connected and maybe that's the reason they cant get a Provence status but this was rebuked as undermining the attitude of the racism towards orcs. This discussion went into Friday and morphed into a discussion about the city of Orsinium itself and orc architecture.

6/16/17

There was a discussion about the two different map versions the project is currently working off of, R-Zero's and ThomasRuz's. Though the consensus was that the project would eventually make a hybrid map of the two in the future, details about the current layouts was debated. Deciding the density of the settlements was discussed, using the wild country backwater of Vvardenfell as an example of settlements which were very close together but felt far apart. There as a lot of discussion on settlement placements and priorities, including moving Wayrest up river to make room on the west coast of the Illiac for important land marks and also the fact that settlements in the Skeffington woods were probably the most damaged in the warp. See the 'map discussions' part of the High Rock forum for the different versions and how they have physically changed. Grimtry Garden/Gothway Garden was mentioned as a possible village for Daggerfall lands because of a reference in a book as well as its importance in the TES:II as the most come 'first town'.

There was a short discussion on the discord about the fishermen of HR vs the fishermen of the Niben. It was decided that the HR fishers favored multi-man larger boats vs Niben with its small single man boats. Up at Northpoint and Farrun, Scandinavian influences would be a little bit prevalent and the hooker/whaling industry would be booming.

There was a discussion of non-settlement locations of importance from most important to least. Though the discussion was derailed, some of the locations were discussed and put down. They include:
Ada-Mantia, Crypt of Hearts, Castle Shedungent, Castle Lugwych, Castle Necromonghan, "Kintyra's Ruins", Woodborne Hall, Mines of Khuras, The Masoleum of Darkivaron, Privateer's Hold, The Ruins of Old Orsinium, Castle Wightmoor.

There was a brief discussion on the ruins of Orsinium and where they should be located. It was decided that Nova Orsinium would be really close and possible built on some of the old ruins but there would be some physical evidence of the original. Though the surface elements were completely destroyed, there could possibly be deep tunnels and rooms safe from the siege which could be accessed through caves.

Roerich came up with a mock up of the city of Jehanna, using current PT assets that somewhat resembled the city. http://imgur.com/a/HI6vR There was a discussion about the Direnni ruins of the castle and it was decided IDEALLY there might be a Breton-esc variation of the Direnni buildings for Evermore. Thatched roof buildings would make up the rest of the city. http://imgur.com/a/1iMwL
There was also mention of the idea of the gladitorial team of Jehanna back in TES:I concepts, “the Iceblades” could be referenced towards as either a bandit/raider group or a Nord house in Jehanna.

This is when ThomasRuz made a new discord channel about maps and the conversation died.

There was a long discussion about Jehanna's Witchknight questline. The concept up until this point was that the Witchknights would get back Jehanna through the help of Evermore and in the process become their vassal. The big hole in this concept, however, is that there is really nothing we could think of that we could give Thian to justify him giving up the city to Evermore. Thus, the concept was scrapped and the idea moved to the questline being about reuniting and strengthening the order for preparation against Haefingar. There were a lot of crazy concepts put out and two of the discord's favorite included involving King Dead Wolfdeer in some way (perhaps as a wealth of old magic information) and renaming the Gehenoth from TES Travels: Dawnstar to the Jehenoth and connecting it to the Witchknights. How exactly they made a Jehenoth is unclear at this concept time, whether it be through a somewhat beta Wild Hunt or something else. The connections seem solid at this time (King Dead WolfDeer, Witchknights, Y'ffre, Jehenoth all seem to click). R-Zero summed up the idenity of the Witchknights with this quote: "how far are you willing to go to get your homeland back".

There was a very short discussion on the prospect of a main quest in HR and it was decided that there were no plans to make one any time soon. The idea of an over arching narrative formed through multiple court plays and events sounded more in the spirit of the region.

There was a short discussion about Northpoint and the prospect of glowing rocks along the shore. Although this idea did not seem very popular, the idea of Witchstorms was. As of now, however, custom weather is close to impossible in the vanilla engine and would need to be implemented in a future version of OpenMW.

Last edited by Miraclestone on Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:29 am, edited 7 times in total.

There was discussion about Orsinium.
We said that Nova Orsinium would be a metal fortress built into the side of the tallest cliffs. We said that it would overlook the ruins of old Orsinium which would be in the narrow valley below. The fortress would be like a Petra of metal in the mountains, and it would have networks of tunnels inside of it. The metal of the fortress would have zig zag patterns and the visages of orcs on it. There would be slight Aldmer, Chimer, Nord, and Breton influences, but mostly it would be the Orcs own style. There would also be a great mine underneath the city with an abundance of metals.

There was a discussion over Haefingar's rule on Jehanna and what the best way of handling the situation was. Roerich put out the idea that the city would have fields inside the walls and would be mostly made of bland earth tones. This idea was expanded upon with the idea of the contrast between the city colors of the two forces, having the mute lighter earth tones of Jehanna vs the harsh dark pure colors of red, purple and blue Haefingar might have. There was a small discussion about the Witch-Knight's questline and a possible conclusion. It was conceived that the questline will end with Evermore using diplomatic means to free Jehanna but as a vassal to them. This will leave the player with a bitter sweet realization that the fall of Jehanna was inevitable

Discussion today was mostly about Dawnstar, relating to its relationship with Jehenna through the Gehenoth/Jehennoth. Some speculation as to when precisely the game Dawnstar took place, theories ranging from after the events of Morrowind to some time during the First Era under the Reman Dynasty. Ultimate conclusion was to leave it vague, hinting that the Jehennoth created by the Witch-Knights in their storyline isn't necessarily the first of its kind.

Discussion drifted over to the Ice Tribes and their identity. After passing theories relating them to Rieklings and a discussion as to the origins of the various beastmen of Tamriel, it was ultimately decided that the Ice Tribes would be in fact human - specifically an ancient, degenerate offshoot of Bretons living in glaciers. They are capable of working alongside creatures such as trolls and the Jehennoth, and deliberately present themselves as folkloric boogeymen (such as Falmer) to frighten their enemies, painting themselves in (possibly alchemically treated) woad to further sell the mystique.

King Dead Wolf-Deer was briefly discussed, and it was agreed that as a Wild Hunt mer-monster and one of the oldest beings on Tamriel, he would likely have demigod-tier power on par with the Tribunal.

Artifacts for the knightly orders were discussed, such as the Totem of the Witch-King for Jehenna (with lesser totems carried by all Witch-Knights, possibly growing in power with rank), court masks for the Knights of the Rose (plus the flaming sword Thorn) and a magical furnace that restores/fortifies magicka for the Storm Knights.

There was continued discussion about the Ice Tribe, Dawnstar and the 'Jehenoth'. It was brought up the the Governer of Dawnstar had an Imperial sounding name, Cyril Vinticae, which does not support the idea of the Governer being a title appointed by Thian of Haefingar. This just throw more confusion into the whole timeline of the events of Dawnstar. It was decided that the Jehenoth of Dawnstar wasn't the first and wouldnt be the last.

We further discussed the Ice Tribes to try and tie them to Jehanna in some way. The Ice Tribes would have some crazy wild magic and the secrets to creating a Jehenoth. There were plenty of ideas of their origins, straight up bretons from Jehanna, degenerate humans who had once lived near Jehanna, Rieklings, Atmora natives and Falmer. The ideas of lowering their oxygen intake to true blue or cold resistant blue woad paint came up. There wasn't a very good conclusion to this conversation and would need to be continued later.

There was a conversation about King Dead Wolf-Deer and the Witch Knights. It wasn't clear what KDWD's role would be for the WKs, whether he would be a voice of prophetical wisdom or a dead end due to his violent aggressive disposition. I for one would maybe include the idea of needing to calm KDWD as part of the quest. There was also a bit on the WK's ending again, debating whether there should a less extremist ending for the PC to choose. It was decided that the PC would be allowed to disband the knights at this, there weakest point, to avoid them achieving their dark and despite plans. ThomasRuz also commented that it would be a fun idea to reinitialize the Dark Brotherhood script to spawn Witchknights whenever you try to sleep if you disband them.

The discussion on the Ice Tribes was revisited again, involving lead devs Roerich and Infragis. There was an effort from ShotN to pass the Ice Tribes off as generic snow enemies and/or Rieklings. They would have gotten there from primitive seafaring. Roerich also wanted to make it clear the Ice Tribes dont really work well in concept from what we know about the Dawnstar region in ShotN. The Jehenoth doesn't need to be very connected with what he called “generic rpg monsters from a mobile game'. There was also the idea that there could be a human model rigged up to a goblin animation skeleton to get an interesting result.

Roerich wanted to discussion the Druadach range in the provinces mods. The Reach should be a land of rolling hills and mesas, flat and fertile enough for good farming. The range should be little and simply just higher lands than the valley areas of the east and west Reach. The article on UESP should not be followed for the Druadachs.

Infragis wanted to touch on the Imperial presence in other provinces and wanting to see more direct control (Governors and Legion Forts) like in Morrowind. Though the Human lands are likely to be much less of a concern for the Empire in maintenance, recent events in the third era would support the idea of there being Imperial officials trying to secure power in HR and Skyrim. It was also stated that Dawnstar was a Remen dynasty stronghold and should show that in some way.

There was the idea that the player could be given or made a town/city at the end of some possible large HR questlines. This idea does seem to appeal in concept since HR is all about ruling and political moves so being a lord with lands and peasants would be appropriate. There was discussion about the player becoming a regent as well. This is some uneasiness about the implementation of these.

There was a conversation about armor and what kinds would be found in HR. Drawing inspiration from the TES:II was difficult due to the lack of creativity in the designs and the low resolution. It was decided the guards would wear mostly mail with very little plate and have tabards of the city colors for sure. Having a generic base armor set with different helmets like what morrowind did with their guards would be a good way of distinguishing them from one another. Some armor ideas included kettle helmets for the Ravennia mercenaries and court robes for Wayrest mages. It was discussed whether the knight orders would have a connection with the guard and decided that they would not in most cities.

AGAIN the conversation returned to the Ice Tribe where it was proposed that they are a race called the Riek and the Riekling are just that race with island dwarfism. They would be described as icecavemen and the Nord would not have made a distinction between them and the Falmer.

We discussed the Daedric princes and daedric summoning. It was proposed that the player would be able to summon lesser daedra for services, advice, bartering and small quests. There might be rules which the player needs to interact through in order to safely work with the daedra. There was also discussion about the Daedric Princes having a hidden disposition tied to their relationship with the player but this might be best done through crossproject.

6/19/17

I made a mock up of Evermore city after being inspired by Roerich's attempt at Jehanna. The plan was to make a Colorful Direnni Inspired High Fantasy setting fit for wizards. The classic gravity defying wizard tower design would be implemented as the main tower of the Palace, where the order of the tower's HQ is. Thomas point to the Witcher 3's city of Blood and Wine as an example of the possible depth of colors. There was also a comment on how the cities shouldnt be very planned out and less organized. I also proposed that the look of the Aachen Imperial Cathedral would be a good look for the city of Camlorn.

There was discussion about where the project might start working. The split was between those who wanted to do something more distinctive somewhere in HR to grab the attention of users and those who wanted to start in the West Reach due to the large amount of assets already available for there. Either way the project wont be starting any time soon and there will be time to debate this further.

There was a discussion about how the idea of Lovecraft could fit in HR. HR is fairly high fantasy and doesn't mix well with many of the themes of Lovecraft. Elements of light Lovecraft can be used to help explore some of HR's darker and stranger elements, using his tone and style to elaborate on these wild parts of HR. “High Rock is a province with layers. You have the urban cities that try to be kosher and civil to gain favor with the Empire/eachother and then you have the rural areas where the weird traditions and rites come to light. THEN you go even deeper into the wilderness and start to understand the true nature of High Rock, a place of wild magics and dark secrets. Lovecraft has similar themes of a world right below the mundane one, just a few layers deeper."

There was discussion about the Direnni in High Rock. R-Zero was concerned that the “former direnni fortress” angle of our settlements those far could be quickly over played. The only city that the lore says was a Direnni settlement at one point for sure is Daggerfall and I proposed the vault of the castle would still be Direnni. The current Jehanna concept involves a palace made from Direnni ruins. Evermore will not be a former Direnni fortress but will be very Direnni inspired. It is important that this angle not be a pattern. The Direnni are said to be the most prevalent in the Western Reach and around the coasts of the Illiac Bay. The other parts of HR (save White Haven and the Crypt of Hearts) should have very little to no Direnni ruins to avoid the concept being over used.

There was yet again another Ice Tribe discussion continue the idea of the Ice Tribes being a root race for the Riekling called the Rieks. This idea was challenged with issues of the origins of the Ice Tribes and the importance of defining the Ice Tribes. The idea of Rieks was expanded to include the idea of “blue orcs”. Infragris reminded us that it is classic TES style to give many different contradictory ideas about the origins of things and to commit to one is not necessary.

There was a short discussion on the Direnni again and the differences between them and the Altmer. Though the Direnni never officially left the Altmer behind, they are very distinct culturally at this point even if they stayed relatively the same racially. The Direnni are opportunists who are very involved in the politics of humans where as many of the Altmer pretend humans dont exist. The Direnni are very adaptive and will use any situation to their advantage where as the Altmer of summerset isles are very conservative and culturally stubborn.

There was a short discussion about what kind of creatures should be present in HR dungeons. After confirming that Harpies were in HR dungeons in TES:II, it was proposed that it might be better just to have them have some nests in some of the higher altitudes. Giant spiders were discussed too, where they would either be black widow or tarantulas (or BOTH!). R-Zero came up with the idea that there could be molts of spiders all around their dungeons to try and make the player unsure which were real and which were just shells.

There was a discussion about the Underking's agents and the Talos Heresy. After a lot of discussion it was concluded that the a number of the agents after the events of TES:II will still be trying to continue their aint Imperial work and will be trying to provoke a religious movement in Alcaire based off of the Heresy. A successful movement would mean HR likely taring itself apart once again. The agents would be less organized and untouchable without the leadership of the Underking and the PC could possible be able to stop them but the idea of the heresy movement being inevitable should be clear. R-Zero wanted to include the idea of Marukhati influences being part of the Heresy. I wanted to include a dungeon near Bhoriane on that southern point wide peninsula called the “Tomb of Lost Kings” which would be the crypt of a dynasty of Witch-Kings and also hinting that it was the lair of the Underking during TES:II.

The conversation turned the to religious orders of HR. Though I had planned on a centralized order, it seemed like a more popular idea to have separate autonomous temples for each god in the pantheon. This would lead to each have their own quest hub and story. There was talk about the idea of 'main' temples being uncharacteristic to how religions work and this was changed to 'biggest' temple to better convey the purpose of the temples. Y'ffre will only have one actual temple in Jehanna, the rest being woodland shrine across HR (mostly in Malekna Forest and the Western Reach). There was a proposed questline involving the temple of Kynareth trying to convert Y'ffre followers in the North-East to her during the weakened state the temple is in due to the Haefingar occupation of Jehanna. It has been decided that the religious knight orders will need be given quest affiliated faction treatment and will be merged with their corrosponding religious order to try and reduce the risk of spreading thin.

There was another brief discussion about the Ice Tribes with no real improvement on the ideas we already had.

There was an in depth discussion about the druids and earthbones. The idea is that druid magic would try to tap into the earthbones through rituals to try and achieve a desired result. As R-zero put it "occult science". Infragris has some issues with the idea, wanting to avoid the idea that the earthbones are anima in anyway and to focus on the idea that they are the laws of nature/nirn. The idea that Druid magic is not really tangible and is more abstract/unclear seemed to be a popular opinion. This discussion should be expanded on further when we talk about religions in more depth.

Some of the more popular ideas were 'valley of kings from egypt' (centuries of tombs from different dynasties and cultures all in the same place) and 'necrom of the west' (much like necrom in Morrowind, this would be a place of mourning and respect. Generations of the most important people in HR are buried here). One of the difficulties in the current concept is the style mixing or very inventive custom set required to make it.

6/21/17

Melchior Dahrk linked three separate 'r/teslore' posts that had to do with High Rock lore. Non are canon but there could be useful inspiration found in the ideas for HR religions:

There was a lengthy discussion about centaurs and how they should be portrayed. There was agreement that there should be several different types of centaurs spread across the provinces based on where their homeland was. A centaur from Hammerfell might have the body of a zebra, while one from Valenwood might have the body of a stag.

We said that centaurs should have a connection to the Earthbones, which are the laws of nature, and that this would determine their type, which would still be based on their homeland. We said that it would be important not to personify the Earthbones, and to leave their nature mysterious and ambiguous.

We said that the centaurs should be more beast-like than human and should be capable warriors. They would not want to fight in any war of men or elves, and wouldn't care about petty politics. They would only fight for good reasons, like the defense of their homelands.

There was a conversation about the Crypt of hearts and its possible architecture. The idea if it would be a 'valley of kings' like area with crypts from different eras and cultures. Whether this means a new tile set that combines elements of Nede, Breton, Nord and Direnni OR just using the sets already made for those three isn't clear yet. A skull is a popular concept for the crypt which is displayed above the door in the Arena art for it.
Here is concept art drawn by members of 427 that day for the crypt: http://imgur.com/a/XB9L8http://imgur.com/a/J3Fryhttp://imgur.com/a/saVyL
There were some new ideas for the crypt, including a castle for the Order of the Heart above the crypt as well as the crypt being a well that sinks into the earth. Infragris recommended the skull be stylized and not realistic in design.

Halbe had an idea about a cult which worshiped dragons. They would get tattooed with scales, use fire magic and use gliders to fly around. He described it as dragon worship with celtic and eldritch elements mixed in.

There was an overview on some of the 'monster' races of HR. The Dragonlings would not be dragons and would instead be either pseudodragon homunculi created by the Direnni in an attempt at making a real dragon or a metaphysical world theme which perpetuates the form of dragons. Either way it was decided they would not speak Dragonkin despite that being the case in TES:II

Spriggan, Nymphs and Lamia were discussed too. It was decided that Spriggan would stay the same and that Nymphs would become water spirits. Lamia would be sea sirens.

The Numidium was discussed and what would have become of it. The idea of multiple Numidum 'corpses' around the Illiac was an appealing proposal, highlighting the importance of the Warp and what occurred with the multiple realities.

There was talk about Giants and how they operate. Giants outside of TES:V lore are said to have armor and possibly strongholds. They would be fairly intelligent for a 'savage' race. They would be fairly unimaginative when it comes to religion/spirituality, taking the forces of nature and spirits around them literally and referring to them bluntly. The Giants that are aware of the 'civilized' gods would also refer to them in a child like understanding "Kyne is Sky, Magne is Sun, Yeffer is forest"

We discuessed the difference between the Reachmen and the Backwater Bretons of HR. Here is the summary I wrote in the discord "K so we got it down? Backwater bretons live in better houses made from stonework and lighter thatching. They were muted faded colored tunics and rags. They dont have tattoos and use normal Breton (non-reachmen) faces. They are shyer about their traditions and beliefs despite also being entrenched in witchcraft/druid (non-othordox) practices. They are more welcoming of strangers though are usually very fearful (unlike the reachmen who are aggressive and usually ask the PC to leave)."

We reaffirmed the idea of witchcraft and druidism being impolite in conversations and public but very wide spread. Shrines will be located in dark corners and alleys and no one will talk about them. There will be cultural subtleties that make the difference between "public traditional witchcraft, private traditional witchcraft, private creepy witchcraft, taboo secret witchcraft and witchcraft the Bretons dont even want to acknowledge exist.

We talked about the idea of learning languages of other 'savage' races. Many people felt this would be unimmersive and others felt it would be sloppy. It was decided this was a topic best left to the far off quest design phase of the project

We briefly talked about Mannimarco and the cult of worms. It was decided that there would be two different versions of the necromancer "The King of Worms" and "The God of Worms". The king would be left on Nirn and probably would abandon the cult of worms to find a different path to god hood. The Cult would probably be splintered into minor cults, many worshiping the God of Worms while other maybe even are in contact with the Slouds. It was even conceived that they may want to work with Gortwog in protecting his new kingdom.

The Lariats and Dynasties of HR were discussed. Wayrest was decided to be ruled by Septims while Shornhelm would have Lariats. After much debate, I posted this summary on the discord of the history of the Lariats and Septims of HR "Uriel was the half brother of Pelagius Septim III's son who was the last of the main line for septims. Despite being a bastard and a Lariat, he was given Wayrest after being adopted by the Septims (becoming a legal Septim). He then inherited the Imperial Throne when his half brother died without an heir. He lost his claim to Wayrest which was given to other Septims (maybe by him). He had a son, Andorak, only had claim to the Imperial Throne and when his father died he was voted out by the Counsel who wanted a closer related heir by blood. He was left with nothing and felt cheated, starting a succession war. After a long war, the Imperial gave him Shornhelm as consolation in peace."

Spiders were discussed. R-Zero worried about having a dungeon type with only a spider as an enemy would be boring. The group conceived of many Dark Souls inspired enemies to help diversify the spiders. These includes web mummies, humanoid spider shaped corpses where are primarily made of spiders which dissipate when they are killed (including a lame version that SPAWNS large spider mobs as enemies when it dies). The lanky webspinning widow grouping spiders will be in HR and the furry GIANT bulky nonweb/nongroup spiders will be in Hammerfell.

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There was a discussion about the architecture of High Rock, especially Daggerfall. Zadroter and I discussed how Daggerfall might look like; I favored a darker/grimmer take on Daggerfall while he favored a Brighter more affluent version. Here are some pictures posted on the discord.

We had another conversation about the culture groups of HR. The suggestion was that the meta-Breton culture needed to be split up to help diversify the province and make it easier to explore different themes. R-Zero put in the concept of 3 cultures. The Normen would be the celtic heavy, isolationist, claymore wielding, xenophobic culture which is located in the Worthgarians and to the North of them. The Bretonnians would be the urbanized, cosmopolitan, shy about traditions and roots and are mostly settled to the West of the Worthgarians. The Easterners are the people who are very mobile, often remote but very trade heavy who live to the East of the Worthgarians. Here is the most up to date map of his culture concept. http://imgur.com/a/DRVg7

We next covered a small point about the in game book http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Rear_Guard and about when in the timeline this occurred. The book cites a law written on 3E 246 so it has to be after that point. R-Zero wanted to know if it would be ok for the book's story to happen during the Bend'r Mahk? Though it was not conclusive whether that would be the case, the town of Cascabel may be added to the HR map somewhere near Farrun.

We had a short conversation about the alliance/political landscape of HR as of TES:III. The popular opinion was that there were only 5 Breton Kingdoms left in power after the Warp from citing http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Etiquette_With_Rulers, excluding Shornhelm which may have been referenced as sovereign in previous TLDR. This would leave the United Kingdoms of Daggerfall and Camlorn, the Alliance of Wayrest and Orsinium, the Kingdom of Evermore and its Vassel Farrun, Haafingar's occupation of Jehanna and finally Northpoint. It was suggested that Shornhelm be included within Northpoint's clay in some way.

The Direnni were discussed, mostly surrounding their tower and Mistress Medora Direnni from TES:II. It is assumed that Medora Direnni, the master sorceress of Direnni Tower, is the leader of the modern Direnni. R-Zero suggested the title Mistress Castellan Medora Direnni because it sounded cool. It was established that Medora was banished from Daggerfall during the events of TES:II so it is suggested the ties between the Direnni and Daggerfall have faded. The Direnni Tower was talked about, including suggestions for a 100 floor tower and references to the Jills (female Dragons) in the basement of the tower. It was reaffirmed that the suggestion that the Direnni Tower was built physically around Ada-Mantia as the structure's core. Ada-Mantia would be off limits save the throne room and the Direnni Tower would largely not be. Drakevarg suggested that the Direnni tower could look like Burj Khalifa in Dubai: http://www.burjkhalifa.ae/en/Images/Bur ... -85702.jpg

Last edited by Miraclestone on Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

There was a lengthy discussion on dungeon types for HR. After discussing the dungeon types of TES:II, which mostly revolve around the occupants of the dungeon rather than the tileset like in TES:III, multiple dungeon sets were conceived. The suggestion at the time of this conversation was to create an interior and exterior set for 'Breton crypt, Hedge Wizard Tower, Breton Castle with ruin assets as well as cultural variants, Coven, Extending Direnni Ruins, Caves with region variants' as well was exterior only assets for 'Harpy Nests, Giant Strongholds, Druid Sites'. The dungeon occupants from TES:II were suggested for these different dungeon types.

There was a discussion on the Giant strongholds. As before there was a consensus that Palisades were a good way to go but some also wanted there to be stonework involved. Drakevarg linked this picture as a possible look http://www.viewzone.com/bigpicture/bp121611T.gif but some found it too nordic. Making the rocks less smooth and square was suggested to help distinguish them from the nord style along with including bones. It couldn't be decided what bones could be used, however, since some felt that Mammoths and Whales should not be common in HR. There was a suggestion that the Mammoths could be found in a flat valley in the Worthgarians which is under the Giant's controls.

We rediscussed the in game book the Rear Guard as well as the settlement Cascabel with the participation of Roerich for ShotN. Roerich confirmed that Cascabel already exists as a settlement for ShotN past the skyrim border and features many of the attributes described in the book (bosmer count, apple groves). It was debated whether the book should be taken 1-1 though because there are minor inconsistencies. The greater argument was whether or not books that are ambiguous whether they are fictional or not should be used as 100% lore points. This discussion may need to be revisited due to a lack of resolution.

Thomas and R-Zero discussed the characters of TES:II/High Rock. Most of this discussion was lore searching and confirmation, finding descriptions for the characters and if they had any character development after TES:II. It was suggested that Nulfaga should be revisited whether through the Order of the Heart or maybe Daggerfall. Mynisera was confirmed to be possibly still alive after false information as sourced from UESP. She would be 74 years old in HR427. It was suggested that ambassadors from Baelfiera be present in most every court in HR.

Gwylim was discussed after concept art of other pocket realms were linked into the channel. Floating rocks were not a popular take on Gwylim. Some suggested not even making an exterior for it, having it be completely indoors interiors. It was discussed whether Daedra were involved in creating the pocket realm but this was also an unpopular suggestion. Infragris described it as “It has folded in on itself in such a way that its physical location is completely trivial. To ask "where is gwylim" is a nonsense question, like "where is blue". ”. R-Zero pointed towards http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Liminal_Bridges and http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Itermerel%27s_Notes as possible examples of magical things that can be done with Gwylim.

6/26/17

There was another very long discussion on the Centaurs. Alot of this was review of the previous discussion for those who were not present. A brief discussion on the Old Ways was included which went over what they were and how it was connected to the Centaur. It was suggested that the old ways is a form of elder mysticism which is used to manipulate the earthbones. Where the Psijics have to use meditation and highly trained mental control in order to use this type of mysticism safely, the Centaurs do this instinctually which makes them the “true followers of the old ways”. It was suggested that they don't see a difference between the living and the dead. It isn't exactly clear how this connects with the concept of them being tied with the earthbones and how they would view their ancestors. R-Zero expressed concern for the idea of their form being tied to their homeland, saying is is too close to the Khajiit cycle and pointing towards P:C's Minotaur as possible inspiration on how to do the Centaurs. R-Zero would later say that having the Centaurs be in a flux state of shapeshifting of form based on where would be another way of expressing the variant idea. On a side note it was suggested that the druids might be tapping into this same type of earthbone manipulation too but instead of using mental means they achieve this through rituals.

How much the centaurs would change based on their location was a big point in this discussion. What part the creature would be different was of concern for R-zero who said they feared a puzzle piece style centaur. Drakevarg expressed his interest into saying the variants be completely different based on their location, having little in common but their 4 legged lower body as well as a human upper body. R-zero wanted there to be a lot of similarities, only have small changes like fur cooler be present while horns, hooves, tails and most other things stayed the same from variant to variant. It was decided that this would need to be solved with a larger group than 3. There was a short discussion of what armor and technology they had. It was suggested that they had Neolithic tech level at best due to their portrayal in TES:II

The backstory of the centaurs was discussed and how it was relevant and should be handled. With the theories made on the 24rd of June still the most pervasive discussed, it was questioned how it would appear in game. R-zero worried it would be tacked on and distracting, robbing the player of the change to imagine the origins of the centaur. It was suggested that the be one of the ingame theories and that there would be multiple explanations ingame about the origins of the centaur. As I suggested, there could be a book written by an Imperial scholar and another one written by a Bosmer ranger who contradict each other, both of which would be different from the Centaur's own theories. The ambiguity of the nature of the origin is within TES's style so it should be encouraged with most HR427 created lore. Drakevarg wanted to make it clear though that the drastic variants should still be an example ingame that the centaur have a very unique situation which eludes to the original earthbone connections suggested.

There was a discussion about the damn Numidium caused during the Warp. After quoting many different in game accounts of what the Numidium could do and the after effect of the warp, R-Zero stated they thought the amount represented at this time (skeffington wood) would not be enough. R-Zero also cited a possible inspiration from WW1, the Zone Rouge in france which isolated and prohibited areas of France near the border where the war had been the hardest. Roerich expressed that he enjoyed the concept of warped areas in HR, “including poisonous glow rocks, desolate areas and witchy medieval kingdoms”. It was suggested that empire and blades would try to keep people out of these areas but the secrecy is slipping. R-Zero throw out the idea of the jills trying to repair the wounds made by the Numidium. Thomas had the idea of spectral knights, npcs that disappear and reappear with warped memories. Roerich further this by suggesting you could have small repeatable quests for npcs stuck in a moment in time, unable to remember the last time you did the quest for them. The term 'time wounds' from TES:V was used to express some manner of issues the Warp would have caused.

Members on the discord posted some concept arts for inspiration of different areas in HR:

There was a short discussion about the need for 3d modelers in the PT/TR community. Though the attitude for this conversation would rather jovial it speak a need for this talent to be developed.

6/28/17

The alliances and powers of HR were discussed, especially the relationship between Northpoint and Shornhelm. Shornhelm seems to be in a tough spot after the war and by 3E 433 seems to have been absorbed by Northpoint, but in way was debated. Thomas and I discussed this, Thomas suggesting an Allience while I suggested a federation fronted by Northpoint. Citing R-Zero breton culture concept for HR, I said that the federation could be a Normen attempt at stabilizing a land for them against the growing powers in HR. Thomas and I also talked about Shornhelm's lands failing them, losing a lot of it to the Warp and Orsinium and now possibily having issues feeding their people. Thomas suggested that Camlorn may have raided the farms and blamed the orcs.

We discussed R-Zero's cultures for a small time after questions arose over it. Zadroter stated be believes cultural variety would help HR while R-Zero quoted PE1 that the Bretons are all very alike and are divided not by race but by rule. Many people echoed R-Zero's position that the PE1 should be followed and that the Reachmen, Orcs and Horsemen will serve as the cultural shock centers of HR.

6/29/17

Roerich pointed out that the name for Malekna forest did not fit HR in his opinion, lacking the 'gaelic' ring as he put it. He suggested that Malekna might be changed to Malecnar instead. R-Zero admitted that since the region was taken from TES:II as an unplaced region, it could have easily been in Hammerfell. It was discussed whether it should be moved to the Hammerfell designs Infragris has been working on but the conclusion seems to be that dropping the k for a c would be fine for HR. Thomas wanted to make sure that Malecna Forest would be a misty place.

I proposed a list of changes to some of the settlement names in High Rock to help improve quality and immersion. After a long discussion we identified the following changes as a good base for conceptualizing what settlement changes need to change in the future.

There was discussion on whether Orsinium would have renamed the settlements they captured after conquering them. The concensus seemed to be that the discord group thought it would be out of character, aimless and counterproductive for Gortwog to rename the places he conquered. The last suggestion for this discussion was that Markwasten Moor and Portdun Creek would be renamed (either to Altmeri like Orsinium or Orcish) but Worthgaria, Norvulk and Windkeep would stay.

The famous english names for many of the well known settlement were discussed on the grounds of translation. Though everyone seemed to agree that Daggerfall and Wayrest should be used by the vast majority of the ingame NPCs and books, the other cities were debated. It was suggested that the 'Tamrielic/English' names SHOULD be the vastly more popular name used but there should still be translated names sprinkled here and there for some of these settlements. Either the original name was lost or has fallen out of use but still remembered. Some members of the discord did not agree, however, citing the numerous sources that point towards the english names are the original names of the settlements. Here is the proposal I wrote up for the process of renaming settlements

SpoilerShow

K so my proposal : 1) Rename the town on Baelfiera (upvale) to Altmeri or maybe use Thomas' name 2) Rename the Spring towns in Western Reach to Reachmen versions 3) Drop some of the two word names to one word names 4) Anything refered to in lore or that has a connection to Tamriel as a whole or is new has an english name (the breton ones are either forgotten or rarely use) 5) Anything left over that is plain english can be messed around a bit to make it less generic 6) Rename the Orsinium captured settlements 7) ??? 8) Profit

R-Zero posted a map from Redguard that showed four locations in High Rock: Orbas, Carn Prae, Gelders Tot and Grims Dyke. Thomas remarked that the second and third sound like druid places while the first sounds like a magical place. They debated on the settlement Carn Prae and settled on it possibly being a remote Camlornian village which follows druidaic traditions. They also debated about the settlement name Grim Dyke. It was suggested that Black Waste could be renamed to Grim Dyke but this was not settled on. As a side note R-Zero suggested that his three cultures could all be influenced by the traditions of old in different ways.

Thomas mentioned that the Peryiton, a book in TR that is centered around a different view on the Daedra, has been added to Tamriel_Data and should be used in HR427

R-Zero reviewed yesterday's discussion on Shornhelm and discussed a possible lack of land trade due to the larger HR kingdoms cracking down piracy. This could be an additional issue for Shornhelm which would play into its theme and plot.

R-Zero linked cut content from TES:II that randomly generated the Underking's crypt somewhere in the game space and claimed that King Cameron drove him from it. I linked a passage from the Daggerfall Chronicles which says he has a crypt in High Rock.

7/1/17

Charger24 started a conversation about Heraldry. He wanted to make some for the knight orders and sent some concepts for what they might look like. I'm going to make a forum post for his works so far.

R-Zero linked a passage from the ingame TES book The_Sage which refers to Shornhelm being in/near the Kurallian Mountains. It was suggested that the Kurallian mountains are just a range within the Wrothgarian Mountains region.

7/2/17

The Beyond Skyrim Project got in contact with PT and TR. While the major devs of both projects discussed exchanging assets and ideas, HR427 mulled over some of the information BS Illiac Bay had on High Rock. This is the link to their current concepts. https://www.darkcreations.org/forums/fo ... e-primers/

There was a discussion about what inspirations from TES:II should be followed for HR427. While I proposed that taking the very basic layouts of Daggerfall and Wayrest in TES:II as inspiration and using their Palaces in TES:II as an base for what the cities could look like would be a good way of using a canon source for city planning. Some were concerned that the way TES:II handled settlements was too uninspired and would be a bad direction while other liked the idea of implementing more modern takes on classic TES:II locations.

There was discussion over concept art. While it is confirmed that any sort of concept art would be good, Thomas discussed his ideas for assets for the Creag Coastline. Whalebone items and fishing shacks in particular would be useful for that region.

7/3/17

I linked a passage from The_Madness_of_Pelagius which mentioned that he died on the Isle of Betony in a cell in a Temple of Kynareth in 3E 153. This would mean the temple acted as an asylum, there was a temple there at one point and who ever controlled the island was trust by the Empire to an extent.

Thomas wanted to express his want for the region of Gedalan to be very snowy. He described it as Everwinter inspired and cited the snowfall TES:II theme as another inspiration. Others disagreed with this, however, stating that the issue is that the location does not support that level of snow and snow is really more of a Skyrim thing. Glacier Crawl, Snowline and the Wrothgarians were all cited as spots where snow would be better placed. Both R-Zero and I agreed a north scotland look would be a better fit. R-Zero and Roerich suggested that small thawing snowpiles and frozen puddles could be really nice in Gedalan while I suggested frosty grass and trees instead of piles.

Thomas and I reviewed the Orsimer and their religion again. It was agreed that while the Gortwog would tolerate the existence of Imperial Cult worshiping Orcs, it would be a very small minority would be shunned and ridiculed. Thomas suggested there could be a plot in Orsinium where an Orc tries to open a Nine Divines Church. It was suggested that the majority of the Orsimer who did lean towards Imperial and Breton influences would settle in Wayrest Ghettos. Thomas also reviewed some of the city descriptions I made under the High Rock forum section Breton Regions and Settlements.

Thomas posted the below concept art on the discord. He suggested that these be used as fishing shacks in the Craeg Coast region. They would be made of beachwood and built on elevated terp to keep it safe from flooding. It was also suggested that boats and half boats be used as roofs, protected against leaking by tar. Roerich was concerned that having the huts be too close to the coast would be impractical since the occupants would either need to move or rebuild the house. It was suggested that they would be minimal enough for this to be realistic and would move inland when the storms become too great. It was suggested the fishermen to live in gaps in the rocky cliffs along the coast, living there because it is too difficult to get there regularly.

There was a brief discussion linked to that of the shacks based on the Craeg Coast. Thomas wanted the beaches to be covered by white broken washout wood and logs. He described the cliffs to be only meters from water and full of spikey jagged rocks. Roerich commented that the cliffs could be right up to the water and there could be coves/small bays that have the beaches. They concluded that it would make sense for the fishermen and beachcombers to use these coves for their homes.

I proposed the possible eventual addition of medivel style timber fortifications done in the same style as the manors for the poorer nobles to use. It was suggested that they could be used for the vast nobility of Wayrest since there would defidently be poor nobles there.

Zadroter linked art that could be an influence for Daggerfall. It was discussed what cities in High Rock would represent the southern European influences with Daggerfall and Northpoint representing the Northern ones already. Anticlere, Tulune, Wayrest and many other cities would fill that role in concept. It was discussed whether Camlorn would fill the Northern role or the Southern role. Geologically it would make sense for Camlorn to follow the Northern style if Daggerfall is but the current concept and history of the city would lead one to picture something more 'Romantic'. A mix might serve best.

I suggested that there should be Sea Stacks in Gedalan near Northpoint. Thomas and I thought about how the docks would work for Northpoint with such large cliffs. It was conceived that a possible massive half artificial cove could be constructed underneath the city to house the boats. Most of the city would be a decent amount away from the cliff to avoid wave erosian dropping them into the water every hundred or so years.

Thomas and I goofed a bit with the semi-serious idea of longboats with the wooden heads of dragons on the front. I suggested that these Northpoint ships could be called Dragonboats and would spit fire from the front like the Fireships from AOE:2. Thomas keyed the name Dragoneers for the name of these seafarers.

I suggested that there could be more tragic events in the history of some of the less developed cities in High Rock after reading Beyond Skyrim:Illiac Bay's Camlorn history. The Discord came up with plenty of examples of events that already happened in the timeline but we did not explore the topic beyond that.
7/12/17

I suggested that there be large magical academies in some of the major cities that are bound under the mage's guild. This was not further discussed until the next day.

7/13/17

R-Zero suggested that we implement a chalk sign system for adventures and dungeon crawlers in High Rock. The Province is said to have a extra high amount of adventures so it would make sense for them to communicate to eachother through chalk markings in dungeons.

R-Zero and Thomas discussed my magical academies idea in length. Though the idea of the magical academies predating the rule of the mage's guild was liked at first, in game lore sources like the origin of the mage's guild suggested that the idea of an institute of magical learning was not a thing before the guild. Gwylim was decided not to be included in this, however, since it is a scholarly institute first and formost. The idea of mage academies and the mage's guild in High Rock falling apart but in what way was debated. I suggested that the academies were geologically politicized and had connections with their cities making it hard for the Mage's Guild not to be torn apart by the kingdom politics. R-Zero wanted to bring it back to the subfaction concepts of TES:II where different groups within the guild had rivalries with eachother and it wasn't about geography/nationalism but instead about professions/philosophies.

There was a large discussion about the Gwylim professors and how they might act. There was a push for the professors to represent their respective fields in a eccentric and insane manner. Thomas threw out some ideas of how the professors would act: The Mysticism professor would be abstract (when you dont understand something he will say “You'll understand later”), The Destruction Professor would be full on crazy (others in the discord debated this as not fitting, saying it would be better to make him mellow or have a power complex), the Alteration Professor would be uptight, the Illusion professor would be a paranoid mess (understanding that everything in your life can be faked can do that to someone), Conjuration would have a thousand-yard state, the Alchemy teacher would be more down to earth (would hide when magical calamities occur in the university but would still not be surprised).

We reviewed the Scenarist Guild and the Mercenary Guild, both cut content from TES:II. There isn't a lot to go on and the Scenarist Guild is actually in the Dragontail mountains, Hammerfell (not our content) but it is still important to keep them in mind. R-Zero suggested the Mercenary guild could be the Mercenary Mages in the Mage's Guild since they are connected but I debated that that was lost opportunity. The Order of the Lamp and some of the other Mage's Guild subfactions were discussed. The Order of the Lamp was suggested to be unjoinable but still represented like the religious knight orders. It was suggested we wait until a good draft of the Mage's guild plot was created before culling any subfactions.

7/14/17

R-Zero made some shield nifs with vanilla textures. These could be good assets for PT and TR in general but I am sure they would fit nice in HR!

Infragris made very good points on subjects from the last TLDR in the spoiler below

SpoilerShow

About the Orcs and the Imperial Cult: while I'm not opposed to the ostracism/ridicule angle per se, it's not very original, pretty much a retread of the Morrowind situation. It might be more interesting to show the IC as having more influence through Orcish Legion troopers who have returned from service and adopted Imperial customs, or through Gortwog himself who might look to appease Imperial institutions to get his province status and factual independence. In general, the orcs have always been described as a people who easily adopt other's customs and culture, not so much cultural fundamentalists. The universalist message o the IC might also appeal to orcs who want to step out of their cultural ostracism and become real citizens (after all, official citizenship has been the goal of the orcs since the days of Tiber)
There's also the suggested difference between urban orsinium orcs, rural stronghold orcs, and true loners to keep in mind.
About Mages Guild "academies": not a bad idea per se, but would mean a lot more work to make every mages guild into a complex with more fleshed out NPCs. It would emphasize the importance of magic to the bretons, though. While the Mages Guild was the first real guild/academy in the south, magic might have been tought before in exclusive witch school, study cabals etc. which later got incorporated into the guild - mages guild historians might not have found them important enough to discredit their pioneer position. The book Palla gives a view on the workings of a Mages Guild in Mir Corrup which functions much like an academy: might be of interest

R-Zero brought up the idea of drawn carriages (rickshaws) that could be in one or more large Breton cities. They would serve as an in-city transportation system like Vivec's boats. I commented that I could see them possibly being in Wayrest. Many said that they thought it was more of west asian thing. It was commented that they would fit better in Morrowind and goblin driven ones could be in Summerset Isles. Thomas suggested that the Goblin rickshaws could maybe be in Orsinium but R-Zero disagreed.

Thomas liked the idea of joining a Goblin Tribe and revolting in Orsinium. R-Zero suggested that it might be better to have the PC lobby for rights for Goblins instead. Roerich remarked that he believed that the Orcs have enough of a focus on those aspects and no one would be lobbying for goblin rights when Orsimer rights arent supported.

7/18/17

Charger24 linked the old TES:III Empire mod as a reference to their Wayrest city. http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods ... D100&pUp=1
The style was debated and Zadroter remarked on its Quadratish layout and weird out of place assets making it in his opinion out of date. Texafornian said he liked the idea of the high density which is created artificially with the canals.

Iskuss brought up a concept they had for floating undead sentries:http://imgur.com/a/stnks
They would be corpses that are full of a chemical that makes them lighter than air. Necromancers would use them to watch out for enemies and attack from the air. The others on the discord enjoyed the concept but had a hard time seeing it work piratically.

7/19/17

These floating undead reminded R-Zero of Final Fantasy's zombie whales.

7/20/17

I proposed an idea of teleportation pads being installed into Evermore's inner city rather than a gate. The poor would live outside the inner city and would be blacklisted from using the pads. R-Zero and Roerich had issues with the idea, claiming it was too impractical and unrealistic. I conceded that the idea was a bit too extreme but would still like to see it implemented to a smaller level. It was suggested that the city be magically protected by a barrier instead of using the tele pad idea. ThomasRuz stated that since this is HR we could use runes to great effect. R-Zero suggested that the city be divided into the poor on the ground level and the nobles in the towers. I suggested that some of the ground level be home to the upper class and to avoid the tower idea because of it being to close to the Telvanni Model.

We discussed the difference between the Telvanni and Evermore. I suggested that while the Telvanni are divided isolationists Evermore are centeralized expansionists. Roerich wanted to remind me that the Telvanni are very expansionist too with their land grabs and velothi tower squatting. I amended my previous statement to distinguish between the Telvanni's physical expansionism and Evermore's potential political expansionism.

I summed up a design philosophy for Evermore in the below spoiler:

SpoilerShow

I think these should be the design features and goals for Evermore. Have it be a city of wizards while not feeling like a generic wizard city (dalaran for example of what to try to avoid from Warcraft), have the city have a distinct gap between the noblety/wizards and the commoners without making it an unrealistic gap, have the city portray direnni/high fantasy asthetics while still feeling like it fits in High Rock/TES as a whole

AJ asked whether there would be floating buildings in HR. R-Zero and I both thought it was too high fantasy for TES. Trey303 stated he thought if anywhere in TES would have floating buildings it would be HR since the Bretons are masters of Alteration and Mysticism. Texiforian reminded us of the potential for floating objects in the scars of the Warp where Numidium wounded the land which ThomasRuz agreed to.

Further elaboration on the Witch Knights and one of the artifacts associated with them; the totem of the Witch King.

The totem of the Witch King is an ivory totem(probably fashioned out of whalebone, since the area is famous for making objects out of the material), and is/was in possession of the Jehannan Royal Family(Depending on how we want to feature the artifact in the questline). The totem itself is still regarded to be the ruler of Jehanna, so instead of ancestor worship, it is ancestor monarchy.

The totem in question will hold the essence of the last Witch-King to rule Jehanna. The totem whispers to the one that wields it. Crafting the soul of the last Witch-King into a totem probably required a very complicated and ingenious burial ritual (something that hasn’t been discussed yet).

The totem as an in-game item would either be a wearable; the totem would be suspended on a bead necklace, or an inventory item, that gives the power if the item is in the player’s inventory. It’s also good to note that the totem roughly resembles the Amulet of Kings and A’tor(King trapped in the sword in TES: Redguard), and even the Heart of Lorkhan in some respects, but that they all operate a little differently.

Now we go deeper into the lore that involves the totem, the Witch Knights, Witch-Kings and Jehanna. This is definitely in the more brainstormy category, these ideas will need to be revisited eventually.

‘Why did they stop having witch-kings?’ There could be plenty of reasons why they stopped having Witch-Kings in Jehanna. The may have been outlawed, conquered, or the tradition may simply have fussed out. If the latter, the Witch-King in the totem could’ve been the strongest/most influential one, instead of the last of the line, as Roerich states ‘Cults might survive where rulers don’t’.

Gnomey said that they might also have a sort of Telvanni-lich thing going on, that the witch-kings are stored within individual totems, and maybe continue to fight for supremacy, so that the ‘last’ witch-king is basically the one to kill of his competition(Essentially the ‘There can only be one’ scenario in the movie Highlander ). ‘If a living witch-king is powerful enough to defeat the old witch knights and old witch-kings, you get a living witch-king. If there is no strong enough living witch-king, you have one stuck in an amulet’. Gnomey compared this approach to Eqyptian pharaohs, as they sometimes had the practise to erase the names of their predecessors from monuments and such, except that in this case, the monument contain the souls of the previous pharaohs.

In the timeline of HR427 all other totems that existed were destroyed, either by Witch-Knights or foreign invaders(given that Jehanna was invaded by the Nords multiple times in history, the latter seems the most likely). Depending on how the questline will be done, the leader of the guerilla witch knights might have the totem in possession, trying to unlock the power of the totem. The totem is probably the last surviving totem because it was in possession of the Jehannan Royal Family.
Witch-Knights have obtained shards from the other totems that were destroyed, clinging onto them for the fragmented power they still possess, which they have fashioned into wearables, like Amulets, rings, belts among other things, with interesting enchantments. The enchantments depending on what the shard was originally from.

Though ThomasRuz already had the Tiger-boar creature in mind for that:

03-09-2017

ThomasRuz proposed updating the fauna masterlist, as it is out of date. There were also a few decisions ThomasRuz disagreed with regarding the old masterlist. One of these was that the slaughterfish of Morrowind could be used, while ThomasRuz preferred the original eel-like slaughterfish for Daggerfall. Worsas also added that a bunch of the original DF creatures can be retconned. Like the harpie, because of it closeness to the hagraven in appearance, “Harpies in daggerfall had their own language, and were supposedly descended from transformed daedra worshippers”. It was eventually decided to maybe make the harpies their own thing, like Infragris noted we could present the Harpies, same as the centaurs as beast races, similar to Khajiit and Argonians.

Infragris: “So a hagraven is a witch who turned herself into a birb, and a harpy is one of the primitive beastmen/mer species that are sometimes mentioned in lore as populating the continent prior to the arrival of elves and mer.
which is a part of the lore that is pretty much unused, I think.”

The discussion turned to the consideration of adding goblins, trolls, ogres (and such) to the fauna list, and if Ogres were even mentioned before TES:IV. Which indeed they were, both in PGE1 as one of the beastfolk who helped build Orsinium, and in the game Redguard. Then there is also the question of the descendance of Ogres, they might share ancestry with goblins and maybe trolls as Roerich noted. ThomasRuz imagined the cognitive capabilities of the Ogres being quite simple “Like, 'move things there' 'attack that'”.

Ogre from the game Redguard

Ogre from the Doors of Oblivion mod

07-09-2017

The Irish Elk came up

As well as the fellow deer

Which could be used as inspiration for High Rock deer, maybe prancing around in regions such as Norcambria.

17-09-2017

Going back to the fauna masterlist:

ThomasRuz:
“To get back on the topic of creatures and stuff, this is the lamia we'd be able to use for HR427. These lamia's will certainly work along Balothian Bay and Craeg Coast. But I'm doubtful about using the lamia around the Illiac bay with this grey-green colour.”

ThomasRuz:
“While Dreugh might have it the exactly the other way round, having more of a blue colour for in the lakes and rivers and maybe Illiac bay.”
Slight changes to the Lamia texture for the more southern regions, and the Dreugh texture might make them more distinct for HR427.

ThomasRuz repeated that he wanted the more eel-like slaughterfish for HR427:

22-09-2017

ThomasRuz tried his hand at a concept for Wayrest’s Knights of the Rose:

ThomasRuz:
“Trying my hand at The Knights of the Rose armour which I feel will be the more knight in shining armour while also plotting in court nobility types.

Some of the Knights probably don't want to be recognized as themselves, which is what the visor is for, it functions like a court mask. The feathers give away the status of the knight. Squires probably would have the same helmet, but without a visor or feathers.
The way the armour looks would also change depending on how much money is paid for the suit to be made. Squires would get simple steel, nobles who pay a pretty penny get a silver plated one, nobles who pay a large sum get it gilded.

These suits of armour should only be worn by nobility, on display, or given by the quartermaster in dialogue instead of a merchant menu.

The Knights of the Rose are also the more stereotypical and pompous knights.”

23-09-2017

ThomasRuz drew up a helmet for the Order of the Heart, then continued to draw the cuirass and gauntlets:

ThomasRuz:
“Another concept, though it's a bit weird.
The orbs on the side are for lighting purposes, though they can also be replaced by candles if need be. The helmet itself is like one of those medieval helmets, don't know what they're called, but they have a metal ring around the helmet.
The metal faceplate can be clicked into place or opened with those little rectangular clamps that go through the middle.
They also have larger rings in the chainmail(dragon mail) and the faceplate against the undead trying to cave their face in with a greataxe or claymore or something along that calibre. Dragon mail is also quite more effective against Orcs. I'd imagine the Order of the Heart has halberds or pikes as one of their primary weapons.”

“For the armor I was thinking something along the lines of this. Armor that is insulated with fur padding, because of the environments they're usually working in are quite cold. While keeping the elbows free for easy manoeuvring of the arms.
The heavy armor type would have dragonmail protecting the upper arm, and a full metal gauntlet for the lower arm and hand. They also have a lot on their person, so that they can survive a long while on their own if they get lost or separated.”

26-09-2017

Miraclestone added that the helmet wasn’t what he was expecting when writing the description of The Order of the Heart, but that he did like the helmet, as well as the attempt to make the Knightly Orders more unique and inspired.
ThomasRuz added that he tried to look at it from a more functional angle, as they not only operate in the Crypt of Hearts, but also in their mountainous city of Shornhelm. For which mobility might be a big advantage.

ThomasRuz:
“I definitely think we still should have a helmet like this, but rather as an artefact that has been uncovered in the crypts of hearts, for which I had an idea for. I had the idea for an artifact called The mask/fase/helm of Horrors.
But to work that out we will first need to brainstorm lore about the Crypt of Hearts, and which kind of cultures are all buried there, and which of these cultures might actually have worn the Helm of Horrors. Though I think Witch-King(s) would probably be a safe guess, that or a legendary ancient bretic knight.”

ThomasRuz added to the Order of the Heart armour that the thighs will be covered by full-plate, and the knees will be left ‘open to the air’.

ThomasRuz also had a couple of ideas for the Knights of the Storm:
“The Knights of the Storm are apart from a knightly order also seafaring folk, so they wear no furs, and use no crossbows, the salty air is no good for these things. They use 1H and 2H warhammers as their main weapons, they often have a bow with them, and a hunting knife!”

Inspirational pic, the mountain St. Helens.

Thumbnail sketches for Order of the Tower armour, which have deriven a lot of their style from the Direnni. The pics have different ideas for the visor:

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ThomasRuz:
“The bracers and greaves are roughly how they look in the Direnni armour set. The boots have a pronounced point on the shoe. The pauldrons are in the same shape of the pauldrons in the Direnni set, but instead are fabric(except for the ringmail that is positioned under there), and are held together with a chain of some sort.

The inside of the coat has ringmail. Lots of ringmail. The helmet shape isn't Direnni, but does have Direnni influences.”

The person wearing the Order of the Tower armour has a staff, that after a little thinking might work similarly like Gandalf’s.

Trey303:
“That'd be cool if there was a torch-like staff item that could be held in the left hand, maybe just as a stat stick or something that glowed”

There were some ideas tossed around about what it could be called: “Carryable lights? Direnni torch artifact? Welkynd flashlight?”

As for actual implementation Trey303 noted: “Maybe not full-length to the ground ones... Those would probably require extra animations or something. But like smaller torch-sized ones that gave spells or buffs while you held them perhaps…”

To which ThomasRuz added that we could call them wands, “pew pew”.

Last edited by ThomasRuz on Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

ThomasRuz brought up the idea of court-mages, if the kingdoms of High Rock would need advice on arcane matters. This idea has been dismissed, as Trey303 argued that if every Breton is mediocre in magic at their worst, they do not need someone telling them something they are already aware of. They may have mages in court, and appointed people to do investigations, but an appointed court-mage doesn’t seem needed.

Trey303: “I would imagine most of the higher classes would be somewhat proficient in magic at the very least. Even if not in combat magic, but other forms like alteration. Maybe in some kingdoms that would be somewhat representative of their ranking.
For Evermore there is the idea of the magocracy, in that case the mages are the higher class.
The higher ranking members of the Knightly Orders would also be more proficient in magic.”

Trey303 brought up that he imagined that even the lowly people(peasants e.g.) in each kingdom do have some sort of basic understanding of magicka, because it is so interwoven in Breton culture.
ThomasRuz agreed on this point, and added that the amount of knowledge about magicka would probably depend on the availability of education.
Higher classes will have access to more education, therefore more magickal abilities.

ThomasRuz: “Daggerfall and Wayrest will definitely have mages in court, and the nobles will all have atleast a basic understanding of magicks(if not better), but the structure of the court isn't determined by magick users.
Daggerfall's court is probably very orderly and set, with a very clearly defined hierarchy. While Wayrest's might be more loosely defined, because of(the sometimes present) anonymity and political backstabbery. The people on the lowest positions of the court routinely switch out quite quickly.”

01-10-2017

ThomasRuz was thinking about Witch-Kings that might have been buried in tombs:"In my native High Rock, traditions dating back to the witch kings and nomadic horsemen mandate cremation of the dead. This is practiced almost without exception in the north, through an Imperial burial in a tomb or city cemetery is more common in the south."ThomasRuz: “I was thinking an underground circular, downwards spiralling tomb, with witch-knight ashes in clay urns along the walls.
If we want to make Witch-Knight and Witch-King wraiths that are able to be summoned by the Jehannan Witch-Knights we could also multipurpose the creatures for such crypts/tombs
The tombs could also be the place where the ivory totems were held, or the weird [Witch-King] burial practices were enacted.

02-10-2017

ThomasRuz posted a few inspirational pictures for creatures:
Inspiration for Ravennian spiders:

Inspiration for Malekna spiders(super-sized black widows):

Ravennian spiders will be roughly the size of a small dog(Dachshund), the Malekna spiders as large as a large dog(Great Dane). The Ravennian spiders would be passive, they only attack once provoked, they might attack cats and dogs though...

Roerich: “Remember to add Cascabel Hall in WR”

The Beyond Skyrim: Illiac Bay project has a coronation ritual for the Witch-Kings in their lore:"They are the inventors of the coronation ritual of the Witch King, in which the applicant is cut into pieces and tossed into a boiling cauldron of horse blood, only to emerge whole again (if the ritual works) and more powerful than ever. Legend tells that this was originally a complicated plot to assassinate the first ever Witch King by promising to magically cure his illness, but when it achieved the opposite to its intended effect, the shocked but quick-thinking Mabinog stood by their earlier claims and have performed the ritual for every Witch King to be crowned ever since, even keeping the ritual alive in secret through the long years of Shornhelm's rule."
Permission has been given to use this, but needs to be properly credited.

Roerich: “It sounds like a ritual that wouldn't be commonly practised, very rare. And few witches would be skilled enough that someone would put their life in their hands.”

ThomasRuz also had a few ideas about how the ivory totems are infused, given this new lore:
“The people in the Western Reach cremate their dead, so maybe the blood of the Witch-King boils out of his body again, and gets infused in the totem. Probably with the help with strong magicks, concoctions and soul gems or runes.”

Roerich posted an inspirational picture for the Wrothgarian Mountains:

ThomasRuz does want a valley for the Wrothgarian Mountains, and a few waterways. “It would make sense for both water to accumulate in the valley, and stream out of it.”
Inspirational pictures for the Witch King, as posted by Roerich:

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Posted by AJ:

Roerich elaborated about his vision of the Witch-King:

“I think somewhere between a highly skilled spellsword and a Wild Hunt monster. It's about tapping into some ancient energies/shamanic/dawn magic stuff.”

And a little bit of the history that could be behind the Witch-King/Knights:

“My take on it is that there were covens and secret brotherhoods keeping the ideas and knowledge of rituals alive, and that during the current Skyrim occupation of Jehenna, these people are working actively at using this forgotten magic to one-up the Nords and take back their lands. The name witch-knight was also kept alive by a chivalric order active in Jehenna, but few people knew that the name wasn't just a tradition. This order is now in hiding and is working together with the aforementioned covens and secret groups
The player will aid in their quest to make this ancient ritual work, and rally the Bretonnic forces under a powerful witch-king being.”

03-10-2017

Saint Jiub wondered if the Witch-Knights were associated with Witch Covens, Drakevarg likes that idea.

Saint Jiub wrote a lore proposal on the forums a while back, and wondered if it would fit HR427:

"The druids of Galen, now all but extinct, for centuries ruled unchallenged in the wild regions of High Rock. In popular culture, they are easily mistaken for the elves of Valenwood as zealous stewards of nature, but in truth, they were no less ruthless and ambitious than any other proper Breton, and to them their uncanny wood-magicks and talent for alchemy were just another tool of conquest. Over their bloody reign, they delved deeper and more greedily into Kynareth's domain than they could control, ultimately sowing the seeds of their own destruction. Unfortunately, their fall could not take place before they had unleashed vast hordes of stickmen and monsters, and plagues of blight and fungus, into the forests, such that even eras after their fall, gods-fearing Bretons still dare not enter too far beneath the canopies alone. And of course, the rumors persist that some of the witch-kings of Galen still linger, indistinguishable now from the rotted trees and 'shrooms that surround them."

Drakevarg mentioned that Bretons have struck him as being fairly open-minded about minded “They see no contradiction in practicing Daedra worship, academic magicka studies, nature-worship, good clean reverence of the Aedra, weirder more occult stuff... all at the same time.”

Saint Jiub thinks the ‘blood and earth’ approach to magic is a good way to differentiate Breton and Aldmeri magic culture. “Altmer being more focused on drawing power from Aetherius via starlight, crystals, etc., while the Bretons embrace the innate magicks of Tamriel and Oblivion. A more mannish perspective on magic as it were.”

ThomasRuz on the Witch-King/Knights discussion from the day before:
“The idea for the Witch Kings is more shamanistic/mystic/occultist than the standard Witch King of Angmar. They aren't undead, but technically could be if we take the new lore into account(they have been chopped up into pieces), but they could also be something else. I may even consider Witch-Kings to be a created Faerie, or Fey. Witch-Knights will be lightly armoured, mostly clad in woven Tree bark, furs and bone.

ThomasRuz found the lore about the druid of Galen to fit with the setting, and summarized his opinions about what creatures to add thus far.

We hadn’t yet defined what Galen is in our presentation:

Miraclestone:
“I remember reading a thing from one of those /rteslore threads ("make high rock cool"?) about an interesting take on Galen. I think it was that Y'ffre had two sons/disciplines back in the merethic era named Valen and Galen. During the various exodi from the Summerset Isles, Valen left for Valenwood and Galen left for High Rock. And thats what established the druid cultures of both places.”

ThomasRuz said that Witch-King rituals might have grown from Galen druidic culture.

ThomasRuz: “Galen/Valen seems, to me atleast, lore that connects a lot of High Rocks earliest history in Druidism and Mystisiscm and weirdness overall. It's also useful to note, that in the case of Galen, they warp nature to their will, they biggen beasts, create monstrosities and such. While Valen let themselves be consumed or influenced by the nature.
Maybe that is the key difference in the way they should be interpreted. The Galen manipulate nature, while the Valen are (in tune) with nature.”

Miraclestone wondered how the Valen/Galen divide happened, had they opposing philosophies(Like Mannimarco and Galerion)? Or did they agree on everything. Simply separating to spread their ideology to different places, and that these evolved separately over time?

ThomasRuz commented that this information was not vital enough to be discussed at that point, this could be discussed further at a later date though.

AJ: “My idea: it both could be connected to invoking bones-of-the-earth magic. the bosmer, being descended from the ehlnofey themselves, accept the connection to that kind of magic as a part of their nature through rituals (eg. wild hunt) and it also physically alters them, without them having alot of control over it. the bretons on the other hand try to use this kind of magic more as a kind of "tool" instead of it truly becoming a part of them. as a result, their way of using it is not "as powerful". they could even kind of aspire the nature of the bosmer and that they have a stronger connection. maybe galen/valen could refer to two ehlnofey, descendants of y'ffre, who first told inhabitants of valenwood/high rock the usage of such magic. or the magic schools are just referred to as the "valen-path" and the "galen-path" for another reason.”

The Valen druidism is more powerful than Galen Druidism.

“It’s a kind of special magic school that many people in High Rock know exists, but nobody knows how it actually works”, as AJ put it.

Miraclestone: “I imagine alot of the more powerful magic users in High Rock use druidism and witchcraft but only as a small part of their practices in order to accomplish things they couldn’t with other magic schools.”
AJ had the idea that centaurs are Druids who became so powerful that they were able to transform their body. This idea was dropped however, in favour of the established one.”

A distinction was made between witches and druids:

Witchcraft is predominantly Daedric magic, while Druidism is predominantly wild magic.
Both have little/basic knowledge about their counterpart.

Miraclestone: “It’s probably fair to say in general witchcraft is like 80% Daedric and 20% wild, while druidism is like 80% wild and 20% Daedric. Like all things it matters more how you use it not what it is that defines affiliations”

ThomasRuz: “Having knowledge of something can also mean you can counteract it.”

Direnni will be masters of alchemy, the Druids will probably adepts or experts in alchemy.

Miraclestone: “One of the things I wanted to put forward about the Witch-Knights questline is the idea that they weren’t very in tuned with druidism and witchcraft when they lost to the Nords invaders. When in exile they begin to relearn the roots of their traditions. I think we had the line "How far will you go to regain your homeland", there should be alot of conflicting feeling about whether this is all worth it and whether it really is a good thing for the witch-knights to fall back into these questionable practices. Also putting forward the possibility of a split ending in the questline where you either help them get their Jehennoth and become potentially a resurgence of the Witch-Kings, or you put an end to them because things have gone too far.”

Miraclestone: “Jehanna identity before the occupation was probably no different than Northpoint or most other Breton settlements in the north. But in exile the Witch-Knights go all traditionalist hardliner and go nuts with the druidism and witchcraft in search of revenge and securing their traditions. Before the invasion they really were only associated with druids and witches through traditions, they maybe be the most connected with those aspects of Breton history but they weren’t super into it. After the knights start rediscovering these things in a resurgence. The player will get to decide whether to help this resurgence or put an end to it."

The ruling class of Jehanna are descents of the Witch-King that settled there and his servants and the Reachmen make up most of the citizenry. They mix and co-exist pretty well but there is definitely a bias towards Bretons in the city. The Witch-Knights are mostly part of the Breton ruling class. When the Nords invade, most of the Bretons flee or are exiled leaving the Reachmen populous under occupation.”

Roerich: “Jehenna is a Reach city, with Reachman history. Witch-knights and druidism is more of a pan-Breton ancient tradition, which can be used here. The Western Reach is the most civilized part of The Reach. Although Reachmen here are still an underclass, they aren't seen as savages and mongrels, like the Nords do. This would also allow them to have more influence on the culture of society at large.”

Jehenna is a Breton city by rule, but a Reachmen city by demographic, the same for Farrun, Cumalda and Corvelda. They should also be all over the countryside. The Reachmen would be integrated as much as the Bretons, just not in positions of [high] power.

Wayrest might house a few Reachmen exiles, while in Northpoint they would form a minority. Evermore might have some Reachmen, but they are generally shunned(in a polite way).

From left to right: Iron, Steel, Adamantium and Ebony.
The Ebony design was based off of the design in Oblivion, the general consensus was that Oblivion is a good inspiration source for High Rock armours.

Saint Jiub: “The PGE artwork for High Rock is pretty interesting in that it appears to use historical Islamic armor designs (especially in the helmets), so I tried to capture some of that feel, along with a traditional Knight-in-shining-armor feel in the cuirasses.”

07-10-2017

Saint Jiub drew a slightly different take on centaurs:

Saint Jiub: “Mostly based in the idea that Bretons are, like, stupidly good at Conjuration magic. Their witches have basically cornered the market on conjuring and binding shit. The idea for centaurs was that they're knights who have crossed or threatened the coven, so they and their horse have been killed, taxidermied, and used to house a Daedra soul to animate it as a servant/guardian. With some Clannfear mixed in for added lethality. If centaurs are quasi-divine then this form could be a mockery of that.”

A write-up Saint Jiub posted on the forums a while back that explains the concept a little better:

"The witch covens of High Rock bear responsibility for many of its monsters that stalk the night. In pursuit of power, they have honed the practice of conjuration to an art, with no consideration for the corruption of their own souls. All know of the Glenmoril Wyrd and their pacts with Hircine, resulting in the fell creatures known as hagravens, but other covens are no less eager, willingly taking on aspects of the spider, bat, or boar from entities as vile as Namira and Molag Bal. But it is not only their bindings upon themselves that make the witches so dangerous - though of course they share the conjurer's fondness for the atronach, scamp, and dremora, many of their lesser conjurings are unlike anything else seen on Tamriel. The gravehound (and its cousin the bonewolf) is only one such example, born by binding the soul of a Daedra into the twisted flesh and bone of a simple dog."

The centaur concept was met with a lot of approval.

AJ added that fungus zombies could also be a thing:

Saint Jiub posted a WIP of his fluted steel armour concept. (Which will feature later in the TL;DR).

Saint Jiub and ThomasRuz had a little talk about the cultural influences for High Rock, it was decided that we shouldn’t just explain away non-European influences.

Saint Jiub:
“I do have a handwavey in-universe explanation for the helm shape - the Iliac Bay Bretons craft these tall, conical helmets in imitation of the Adamantine Tower.”

ThomasRuz also added that we shouldn’t forget that Direnni Armour can also have influence on Breton design.

Saint Jiub wondered if the ‘fleur-de-lis’ should be used, as it was common in Daggerfall. ThomasRuz agreed that it can be used, as it was in Daggerfall, but shouldn’t be overused.

Saint Jiub stumbled on some Reachmen concept art from Skyrim, both used and unused in-game:

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Saint Jiub posted his finalized concept for the fluted steel armour:

09-10-2017

Roerich posted an inspirational picture for King Dead Wolf-Deer:

Roerich felt like KDWD should have a lot of work and thought put into it, instead of just making him insanely overpowered in CS.

Roerich: “I mean, he's older than Yagrum, Vivec, Fyr etc. Almost contemporary with Alessia. He was more than 300 years old when the Battle of Red Mountain occurred. 'Mindless monster boss' won't really cut it.
He's a mindless formless incredibly powerful being, but the circumstances around him should be really well written. Not just making him level 200 in the CS.
He was 2000 years old (if you go with MD timeline) during the War of Righteousness. He's older than the expansion of the Direnni Hegemony, although he probably didn't stay there at that time. At one time, KDWD stalked Lympan March, wherever that is. At the time of TES III, KDWD is about 3,800 years old. A RL equivalent would be having someone around that saw Stonehenge being built.”

Saint Jiub thought about having some sort of cult centred around him, “human sacrifices at the edge of the woods, etc.”

Saint Jiub: The local villages would probably feel a certain fondness for it as well, since it would have devoured a fair share of Imperial and Nordic invaders in its day.
Uneasy, terrifying fondness, mind you - it's been a long time since anyone has looked upon it and lived to tell the tale, and you'd be hard pressed to find a Breton willing to enter the woods for any reason, but in this harsh world, you can't pick your protectors.”

A part of the Witch-Knight questline is needing to learn something from KDWD.

Saint Jiub added that having ambient screams/howls for northern High Rock like the Silt Strider moans in Morrowind could be cool. “Something to cement the sense of dread as you approach its territory.”

Roerich added that it could use more development in order to make it more interesting.

To which ThomasRuz said that they could expand on Occult and Druidic influences that are present in Malekna.

Saint Jiub: “Dark/dense is good, I just don't think we need to overstate it with like fog effects and spooky scary skeletons. The fact that the player is fighting an immortal pissed off wolf god is going to be creepy enough. Karstaag Castle is a good model for his lair I think - hints of nobility buried under dirt and blood and raw primal savagery. Maybe some markers for the edge of his territory - wolf skulls on stakes and like wooden wind chimes or something. Have activator sounds for birds chirping, boars snuffling, etc. in the areas around the forest, and then have those sounds completely drop off once you cross that threshold.”

It was decided that Malekna Forest doesn’t need undead, as The Crypt of Hearts already fills that criteria.

10-10-2017

Saint Jiub wondered if these could work as border markers for dangerous territory in the forest:

Saint Jiub: Border markers for KDWD's territory? You hear the sticks clattering together before you see it, so you have some warning that you're getting close. Really, these would probably be useful for denoting any particularly dangerous territory (witch covens, druid enclaves, etc).

Miraclestone: “The two most important things about the zone are the crypt and KDWD. Since it's so small in cells, the focus will undoubtedly have to be on them with minor elements on other themes. There is also most likely something about the area that made it suitable/required for both the crypt and KDWD, they may be connected. We'll have to figure out why KDWD doesn't mess with the knights of the heart too.”

Saint Jiub also had the idea of insta-kill via dialogue:

Saint Jiub: “Is it possible to insta-kill the player via dialogue? Would it make more sense to have the player engage with KDWD via dialogue then? Well, the dialogue window, since his "conversation" would mainly be grunts and screams, but if you pick the right options, he doesn't devour you. Something like "Complement his strength and majesty", which leads to a response like <the King's hackles lower slightly and his growling stops as he regards you.>
I feel like any solution that requires the player to engage in combat with him in-game will just utterly destroy his mystique. Even if that combat is completely one-sided as he rips you apart.”

Infragris argued that “KDWD should be a kind of parallel to the way Vivec is approached in Morrowind: The player should be able to fight and kill him if they want to, but it should not be the obvious thing to do, and not his first role in the world or in gameplay. A figure like KDWD is a powerful hook for quests and stories: you should model the way in which he is implemented according to the story he will be a part of.”

Miraclestone likened it as, “That secret side boss from most RPG’s that is tougher than the real goals.”

Miraclestone found the killing in conversation to be interesting, but not fitting with KDWD. “Death by KDWD should be violent boarding on force of nature. I think that idea could be implemented else were though, it has potential.”

Miraclestone liked the idea of ‘bell-hats’ to sooth KDWD in not killing the knights of the Order of the Heart.

Miraclestone: “The Knights of the Heart haven’t really been in the forest since the The War of the Bend'r-mahk, because of the spread of shadow magic causing them to lose control over the crypt. But we'd still need to answer how/why the knights/covens were able to co-exist for so long with KDWD.
Just throwing out an idea but maybe there is something about the forest that sedates those within it. The races of old buried their dead there because they had issues with angry dead in most of the other parts of High Rock but not in Malekna Forest. That’s why the crypt was created, because it was a perfect spot to store the dead so they wouldn’t return. And maybe this is also why KDWD has stayed there so long, because on a subconscious level it is calming KDWD and keeping it stationary. KDWD is still mad/crazied enough to kill anything that comes near it but not driven enough to leave its part of the forest and cause destruction in HR.”

Saint Jiub posted a new armour concept, as well as a concept for KDWD:

Saint Jiub: “The Gheatus and Illyadi are referenced in later lore, as monsters that Altmer had to wipe off of Summerset (along with the Welwa, which made an appearance in ESO), so although I'm inclined to disregard the lore implications found in this text as outdated, it might be useful as a bestiary source for High Rock.”

Drakevarg: “I'd figure the fae are nature spirits akin to Spriggans or Will-o'-Wisps. The sort of entities that would lead creedance to Mankar Camoran's babbling about Nirn being Lorkhan's plane of Oblivion if anyone was willing to humor the theory.”

Saint Jiub created an ambient sound for KDWD territory(Which has been added to our new Google Drive).

ThomasRuz: “The Fey in general are a huge group of beings, but the Fey that are usually encountered are indeed spirits of nature. Fey in TES seem to have female attributes, like Dryads/spriggans. Daggerfall also had these http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Nymph, there was the idea that Nymphs could be "Water spriggans"
ThomasRuz also had the idea that Witch-Kings might also be 'Fey', that they essentially went up the Fey hierarchy.”

Saint Jiub had a lore write-up he didn’t post for Cyrodiil that talked about Nymphs: “From what I can remember they were servants of Dibella, who shapeshift into whatever form is most pleasing to the beholder but always have an identifying trait like golden eyes or something.”

Saint Jiub also added that it might be worthwhile to lean into Scottisch/Irish mythology for the spirits and fauna of High Rock. “There's a lot of great inspiration there and it might not be the worst thing to pull HR away from DnD territory.”

ThomasRuz had the idea of adding sirens, while Saint Jiub thought the Lamia already fitted that niche aesthetically.

There was also the idea of Selkies, selkies were already implemented in lore. Infragris added that it might be better to leave them as actual mythical creatures, only appearing in texts and lore and such.

HR427 needs seals, with cute seal pic to persuade the others.

Saint Jiub and ThomasRuz talked about the fungal zombies again, ThomasRuz felt it was a bit tropy, but Saint Jiub said rightly that we have to do what fits HR. ThomasRuz did want another element to be added though, not only fungus, but also things like plant matter and such.

Turning into something more of an HR thing, ThomasRuz thought we could maybe bring them as “Daedra infused trees”, Saint Jiub wondered if they would be related to Spriggans or visually similar, ThomasRuz responded visually similar, someone should probably make concept art for this.

"Generally, only rage demons become sylvans. The demon will spend considerable time and effort twisting and molding the host to make it mobile. A sylvan is a walking tree and if violent can prove very dangerous. Other, more intelligent, spirits have also been known to become sylvans. These are rare, but generally much less threatening."

ThomasRuz was also thinking about creatures that would be druids that are half-tree/half-plant, in the similar sense that they also manipulated themselves to have deer-legs in concept art.

Saint Jiub pictured three categories of monsters: 1) Spirits/Fae & Daedra, 2) Druid-creations like sylvans and fungus zombies, and 3) Witch-creations like Hagravens/lamia and the kelpie I posted a few days ago.

Some ideas were thrown around for water spirits/monsters, notably a swamp monster Roerich posted images for, which was met with approval:

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Infragris brought up a way to have zombies or monsters pop up out of shallow lakes using animations, and that the same could be applied for a monster like this. These animations can be found in Antares’ Malacath statues and undead mod.

12-10-2017

Saint Jiub found his text about Nymphs:

"There is perhaps no greater popular misconception regarding the spirits described herein than that surrounding the nymph, courtesy of the esteemed Vondham Barres. In it, he paints them as blushing maids who will, for the price of a bouquet of wildflowers and some petty complements, share the deepest secrets of nature and the cosmos to any man bold enough to claim them. While they are indeed elusive and possess a certain wild wisdom, this characterization could otherwise be no further from the truth.
The nymph is a servant of the goddess Dibella, whose sphere embodies all physical and spiritual pleasures in this world. Accordingly, though they can alter their form at will, they will always take for themselves a guise of youth and supernatural beauty. In High Rock and Cyrodiil, they often wear garlands of lilies in their hair and about their personage; in Valenwood, these are replaced with strings of freshwater pearls. They may appear male or female, elven or human, voluptuous or willowy, tall or short, dusky or fair. The one feature that they cannot change, which serves to immediately identify their nature, is their eyes – pale blue, and slitted like those of a feline. In temperament, the nymph is vain and capricious, thriving on praise and adulation – and responding with hot fury and a feral strength to any perceived slight."

Saint Jiub added that the association with Dibella should be taken with a grain of salt.
The interpretation of Dibella in HR came up briefly:

Miraclestone: “Dibella isnt explicitly a pleasure god, no? Thought she was more beauty, passionate love and art; pleasure is just one of the more 'popular' attributions for her.”

Saint Jiub: “Technically yes, however her High Rock incarnation seems to be more focused on the passion/pleasure side of things.
Maybe pleasure is the wrong term - eroticism might be closer. Like, to me Dibella worship in Nibenay would be more about the physical sensations of lovemaking - tastes, textures, scents, sounds, etc., most like enhanced by various mind-altering substances because forget it Jake, it's Nibenay. On the other hand, Dibella in Daggerfall seems to be more about eroticism and putting on a show - skimpy outfits, sensual dances, etc. Like somewhere between a burlesque dancer and a geisha.”

Miraclestone wanted to talk more about the pantheon in general, and added the notes of what we decided way back:

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'' The city of Wayrest will be the location of the biggest temple of Akatosh due to having a temple to Akatosh in TES:II.

The city of Shornhelm will be the location of the biggest temple of Arkay due to its connection with the Crypt of Hearts.

The city of Camlorn will be the location of the biggest temple of Dibella due to its history of beautiful ladies in waiting including the soon to be married Lady Kelmena.

The city of Evermore will be the location of the biggest temple of Julianos due to its connection with Hedge Wizards.

The city of Daggerfall will be the location of the biggest temple of Kynareth due to it being the location of a Kynareth temple in TES:II and its proximity to the wild glens.

The university of Gwylin will be the location of the biggest temple of Magnus due to its position off of Nirn as well as the studies of magic the school is known for.

The city of Anticlere will be the location of the biggest temple of Mara due to it being the location of a Mara temple in TES:II as well having character descriptions from TES:II describing NPCs being associated with the temple.

The isle of Baelfera and its settlements will be the location of the biggest temple of the Elvish Hero Gods (especially Phynaster and Auri-El) due to its high mer population and the fact that it is the location of an Akatosh temple in TES:II

The city of Farrun will be the location of the biggest temple of Stendaar. There really are no concepts or lore to base this on other than it being a large city and Stendaar needing a home.

The city of Orsinium will be the location of the biggest temple of Trinimac and the Orsimer pantheon. This is based on plenty of lore collected from sources like the pocket guide to the empire 3rd edition.

The city of Jehanna will be the location of the biggest temple of Y'ffre due to the western reach's wild nature and the concept of the knights of Jehanna being 'witchknights'.

The city of Northpoint will be the location of the biggest temple of Zenithar due to the high craftsman and fishing populations of the region.''

Most of the gods will have knightly orders.Miraclestone: “I think the consensus is that the orders compete and aren’t very unified in HR. IE the pantheon doesn’t have much unity.
One thing I'd keep in mind is since there have been so many ruling/coexisting factions in HR/Illiac Bay that there are probably going to be multiple inspirations for the same god JUST inside of the HR.”

A discussion follows, which might better be put in between spoilers and left in its entirety in the TLDR:

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Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
most of these gods will have knight orders too
and I think the consense is that the orders compete and arent very unified in HR. IE the pantheon doesnt have much unity.
yeah feel free to fire off some ideas for the pantheon. I'd stay away from Trinimac cuz I think Thomas was working on that but the rest have very little developement for HR
one thing I'd keep in mind is since there have been so many ruling/coexisting factions in HR/Illiac Bay that there are probably going to be multiple inspirations for the same god JUST inside of the HR.
so like Bretonian might dislike Y'ffre but Easterners love them, the orsimer will have a very different idea of Trinimac than the Altmer on Baelfiera (I think we talked about the Direnni trying to use this to influence Orsinium potentially), Akatosh AND Auri-El will exist in the same pantheon (... I think)
so theres alot of stuff to work out and not alot set upSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Yeah it's definitely something that should be played around with but it sounds good so far. There would be a lot of unseen tension between different cultural norms in Breton society just due to how many times they've been conquered and "civilized" by various empires - Auri-El and Akatosh existing within the same pantheon is a great example of this.
And I'm sure the Bretons would sit there and tell you with a straight face how "Auriel ent Akatosh"
TBH I think this is probably what Bethesda was trying to do in Skyrim but they failed pretty spectacularly because culturally, it wasn't a good fit for the fiercely independent and stubborn NordsDrakevarg - 12-10-2017
What would you even call the Breton pantheon? Given that they seem to acknowledge the Divines, the Daedra, nature gods, and all manner of esoteric weirdness in equal measure, would they count them as multiple equally valid pantheons, or do they sit Dibella and Hircine at the same table and think nothing weird of that?Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
I might be talking for the whole group, but I feel like the implication was that the divine side of the pantheon are more popular in the cities, where imperial influences are strong and cultures blend (Some of them were supporters of the Alessians ideas for instance like Wayrest) but when you get to the country side villages you start seeing that mixing of divines, daedra, spirits and folk heroes. It would probably be accurate to say that outside of the cities there is no Breton pantheon, but there are pantheons for each individual villageSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
I think it depends on who you ask most likely, like Miraclestone said, mainstream Imperial culture is going to be more popular in the Iliac because there's no money in being branded a cultist or extremist. Just a guess, but for the most part I suspect that once you get out into High Rock proper, most Bretons would simply consider beings like Hircine and Dibella to be faeries (faedra?) of varying levels of power and influence, and worship them accordingly.
At some point I'd like to reexamine The Faerie and try to relate it to the subgradient model of life on NirnMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
In TES2, there was ALOT of evidence for the Daggerfall royal family being super into witchcraft but publicly they denounce it
that seems to set a presidence that alot of the more culty/extremist practices are widespread/rooted in the cities but also taboo/unsavory to be public knowledge
like, everyone knows everyone is into that stuff but they pretend they arent so they fit in with the Imperials and RedguardsDrakevarg - 12-10-2017
I was under the impression that the idea was that everyone is into the full "divine trail mix," but urban culture considers it in poor taste to acknowledge the darker stuff in public, where the neighbors can see it.Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
^ I think thats what I mean
Daggerfall royal family denounces witches not because they really fear being associated with them but because they need to make the public image that they know well enough not to admit and be brazen about itDrakevarg - 12-10-2017
They all worship it, but like... in back rooms, basements, sewers, that sort of thing.Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Yeah basically. Although as with any culture you'd have true believers too who just fully buy into the propaganda and think that the squeaky clean life of a gods-fearing paladin is the only way to liveDrakevarg - 12-10-2017
I imagine rich people go as far as to have their witchy shrines tucked away in hidden passages, the sort servants use so the rich don't need to see them.Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
The various temples and covens are pretty much singularly focused, as well as the knightly orders and warriors that guard them
But yeah once you get out into the general population it's a pretty wild mixMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
Anticlere and Wayrest would likely be full of true believers, theres alot of talk about the Order of the Flame and the Benevolence of Mara being borderline religious zealots.Drakevarg - 12-10-2017
That follows. Even in pantheonic religions I think people who are like... professionally religious tend to revere one specific subject while merely broadly acknowledging the rest.Saint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
"Mara represents love and peace. She and Her Benevolence recognize that, as hypocritical as it sounds, military strength is often needed to beget this peace. The Maran Knights represent this military strength. We are admittedly a controversial knightly order."Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
and Wayrest is like a little Tamriel inside of High Rock so it is likely to have alot of true believers from around TamrielSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017Drakevarg - 12-10-2017
The Extremely Apologetic Knights of Mara.
"Please behave. As devotees of peace it would be really awkward if we had to beat you all to death for not being peaceful."Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
@Saint_Jiub I was more talking about the the Anticlere knights descriptions for TES2 all make it clear how important Mara is in Anticlere nobility (it seems)
Most of the orders though would be run by true believes, would be interesting to have one of the orders be a complete sham maybeSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Do you have sources by any chance? I'm not super familiar with the town knightly orders tbhMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
Like the Kynerath order is run by corrupt occultists who just pretend to worship her or something
1secSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Yeah that'd make for a fun questline if you have to expose and/or replace them
Could be like the High Rock equivalent of the Great House stronghold questsMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
"Lord Quistley is a Breton noble from Anticlere and serves as adviser to Lady Doryanna Flyte. He is also an associate of the Benevolence of Mara."
thats actually all I could find on UESP
maybe there might be more in the daggerfall chronicles
but prehaps I misremebered how many mentioned Mara connection
"Regional Knightly Order Knights of the Flame
Patron Deity Mara
Regional Temple Benevolence of Mara"
I'm not sure if Kynerath would be the best choice, just an exampleSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Nah I knew what you meant.Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
I think RZero had a good idea about the Kynerath order (working with the Hafingar nords in Jehanna potentially) trying to dominate and replace Y'ffre worship in the Reach as the 'right' way to worship nature
a good way to push the angle that these orders arent getting along and that the religious forces in HR are always in flux due to no unified sense of faithSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017
Like I mentioned when we were talking about druids, Breton culture is defined by ambition and how ruthless you're willing to become in order to be king of your particular hill. The religious orders would definitely be part of that as well.
Even if they don't necessarily compete for the same niche in society, they're gonna compete for resources and followers.
Even within the Divines, I don't think a priestess of Dibella would have any qualms about sabotaging a ritual at the Temple of Stendarr if it meant more followers and prestige for their own temple.Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
I think the idea of the Nords and Imperials trying to push their more unified, orthodox, structured faiths on the Bretons (and failing) would be interesting. Like the more conservative sects of Akatosh worship for instance might get Imperial funding
Nords might be trying to get Kyn worship going in the West Reach. Would be interesting to see these organizations pour alot of time and money into an impossible effort of 'fixing' Bretons of their unorthodox worship
but I agree, priest/priestess in Breton orders wouldnt be noble and fair, they would be cunny, ruthless and calculating even if they were true believersSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017k_hand:Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
Not to mention the blatant hypocrisy that should be rampant in fake believers in the orders. "As a priest of Zenithar I will tell you there i no better feeling than earning your place with hard work. You dont need your coin to feel full of Zenithar's blessing, it will only burden you further in your tasks. Thats why you should give it all to me!"roerich - 12-10-2017
I agree that Breton religion should be more centered around a particular divine rather than a whole pack of themSaint_Jiub - 12-10-2017http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/150378 ... aggerfall/
Bethesda Softworks Forums
Varieties of Faith in the Empire: Daggerfall - TES Community Creations
Varieties of Faith in the Empire: Daggerfall - posted in TES Community Creations: Spoiler Just a little scribblecrap that came to be in the process of my working on Daggerfall and the Bretic West for one of the RPs around here, Of Princes and Power. Thought Id post it up in case it might prove of wider interest. Dont judge too harshly Varieties of Faith in the Empire Volume 12: the Bretons of Daggerfall by Penbrother Filaxes Arvernus of the Scrivial Orders Staunc...

An interesting take on the subjectMelchior Dahrk - 12-10-2017
Better save that page. Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
@roerich what do you mean, Im not sure we are talking about the same thing.roerich - 12-10-2017
That Bretons in general are more inclined to follow a particular divine rather than a whole pantheon. Of course worshipping and acknowledging the whole pantheon, but directing their worship towards a single deity.Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
ok yeah i guess we are thanroerich - 12-10-2017
Rather than how it's shown with the Imperial Cult in Morrowind, where you have people worshipping the Nine rather than worshipping Akatosh.Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
Breton individuals and cultures tend to focus on 1 diety in the urban areas instead of the whole lotroerich - 12-10-2017
And you will always have "Temple of Yffre" or "Temple of Hans the Fox" rather than "Temple of the Gods"
To put it roughlyMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
In TES2 the orders seemed rather segmented (though this is mostly due to the fact Bethesda didnt really think of the nine as one pantheon but rather unconnected individuals)
so it would make sense for them to be disjointedInfragris - 12-10-2017
I should note that for Cyrod we are also focusing much more on the cults of discrete Divines instead of the overarching Imperial Cult
although Imperials as a rule still worship the pantheon, so this shouldn't be a problem
And the interpretation of each Divine in Breton culture will be very different from the Imperial one, I imagineMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
Would you consider them competing though or more just the cult styles of say 'Rome' for instance in how they handled their pantheon
yeah we were talking about how we could change the interpretations for the Bretons 10ish hours agoInfragris - 12-10-2017
The Roman model, as far as I understand it, is the one we're likely to follow: the cults do not compete, and they are conjoined by their ties to the Empire
members of each of the Great Faiths often intermingle, and provide services for each other
and they all pitch in to sponsor the Imperial Cult, which provides missionaries for the provinces, and the Imperial Seminary, which is kind of a theological and administrative overhead
How this will translate in-game is still very unsure though: making them nine discrete factions VS one Imperial Cult faction with a lot of dialogue exceptions both have their advantages
Will these religious temples be joinable in some way in HR?Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
So yeah your model would be more of a collective on a province/governing level but communities often have individual cults to certain members of the pantheon which is accepted as an artifact of Ayleid cultureInfragris - 12-10-2017
uh, not Ayleid culture
the diversity of cults was a relic of the marukhati way of doing things, ironicallyMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
I thought the Ayleids were super into cults and that was one of the things the Alessians inherited from them after the rebellion
you'd know thoughInfragris - 12-10-2017
Not really, there is very little known about Ayleid religiosity apart from the fact that they worshiped both their Ancestors/Aedra and the Daedra
A certain permissiveness towards Daedra worship in Imperial culture can be attributed to them
But their most influential aspect is that the elven-inspired deities were mixed with the Nordic pantheon by Alessia to create her syncretic pantheon of the Eight/Nine DivinesMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
I guess it makes sense that the Alessians would develop cults on their own, easier to worship in private/secret leading up to the rebellion maybeInfragris - 12-10-2017
Some of the early Nedic tribes held on to their own forms of religiosity, but most adopted the religion of their masters, actually. This was what caused the early tensions with the Nordic believersMiraclestone - 12-10-2017
anyways, I think we got to the point I was trying to make that the main difference between the cults of Cyrodiil and High Rock is the ones in High Rock competeInfragris - 12-10-2017
The PGE 1 explains it better that I can
That's a very good angle for High Rock
most other aedric pantheons seem to be pretty harmonious, and it fits well with the Breton's propensity to factionalize
btw, a good (if WIP) text about Ayleid religion is this one by Anumaril: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=849Miraclestone - 12-10-2017
One of the things I wanted to explore as far as religions are concerned is the whole Sheor/Shor stuff. In the vanilla canon pantheon, Sheor is mentioned as the bad man in the breton pantheon. We have 3 planned meta cultures for the Bretons (Bretonians, Easterners and Normen) I was thinking we could split the difference between the 3 to show the mixed nature of the bretons and there origins religiously. The Normen being isolated, closest in blood to the Nedes with the least elven influence while also trading with the nords the most throughout the years would be bigger fans of Shor. The Bretonians being on the Illiac would be mixed in Sheor, Shor and Talos worship but in majority dont really care one way or the other. And the Easterners are believes in Sheor and hate Shor, being mostly in the Reach and being under the control of the Direnni the longest (also boarder frictions with Skyrim would lead to some hate)

KDWD came up again after Roerich posted a picture of a Wendigo.

Drakevarg thought the Wild Hunt should be some Bloodborne-esque nightmare creature.

Drakevarg: "What the hell is that!?" is a creepier reaction than "Oh shit, it's an X!" Both are favorable responses, but every description of the Wild Hunt indicates it's a very offputting thing, not just an imposing threat.
Something that could be reasonably described as a screaming whirlwind of teeth and claws that was birthed from a cannibalistic orgy.”

Saint Jiub had the idea of a correlation between magicka and radiation, that we could go for a post-apocalyptic mutant vibe, for some homunculi and magical beings.
The ‘nature’ of the Wild Hunt was also briefly discussed, and its differences between corprus and other afflictions.

SpoilerShow

Miraclestone: “Wild Hunt isnt strictly 'wrong' or 'perverse' like corpus IMO it is just not orderly. Bosmers hate it because they think that they were saved from a similar existence by the Green Pact. I meant more in a cosmic sense of 'wrong', like corpus is unnatural, it is the body rejecting a blessing in a grotesque way. While Wild Hunt could be argued as natural for the Bosmer, even if they hate and fear it.”Drakevarg: “No, not that they hate IT, I mean that it only comes into existence when a large group of Bosmer hate something so fervently that they murderfuckeat each other until a hurricane of malice spills out. The Wild Hunt is quite possibly the most intrinsically malicious thing in the setting. But yeah, on the Wild Hunt. Reason I say it's an unnatural phenomenon is that it would never happen without deliberate intent, and every description of it basically describes it as a murderous abortion of nature.”Miraclestone: “I think there is a 'stipulation' in the Green Pact that allows for Wild Hunts to happen so Y'ffre clearly didnt consider it preverse enough to not allow.”Saint Jiub: “The Wild Hunt is a deliberate return to the natural state of the Bosmer. They need to follow the terms of the Green Pact. The Wild Hunt, as I understand it, is brought about by a collective violation of it to end Y'ffre's protection for the ones invoking the Hunt.
They have to live very meticulous lives in order to maintain their merrish forms. The Bosmer have to CHOOSE to follow the Green Pact every day, from the moment they wake up until they lay their head down at night.”Drakevarg: “The ritual is literally a cannibalistic orgy.”Saint Jiub: “ In the moons' light, from Scotti's vantage, he could see where the Khajiiti had attached their ropes. With a thunderous boom, an avalanche of boulders poured over the pass. When the dust cleared, he saw that the valley had been sealed. The Wild Hunt had nowhere to turn but on itself.

Scotti turned his head, unable to bear to look at the cannibalistic orgy. The night jungle stood before him, a web of wood. He slung Reglius's satchel over his shoulder, and entered.
The line comes from A Dance In Fire, depicting how that Wild Hunt ended.
He doesn't see the ritual that initiates the hunt himself, the Bosmer go inside a tree and come out monsters. We don't know the particulars of exactly WHAT they do.
The Green Pact forbids the harming of plant matter, however, so it's a pretty safe bet that the ritual somehow involves them deliberately violating that clause.”Mraclestone: “The line does say cannibalistic orgy but I think it MIGHT refer to what happens during a wild hunt, not what causes the wild hunt."The Wild Hunt is a magical trait innate to all Bosmer. It is brought on by a collective ritual performed by many Bosmer, causing them to shapeshift into a horde of feral, supernatural beasts. These monsters stampede, changing their form constantly, slaying and devouring all in their path and eventually, when left with no surviving targets, turn upon themselves in a "cannibalistic orgy""Drakevarg: “Read a bit on the Green Pact. The phrasing implies it's a Valenwood custom, but not all Bosmer follow it. ...yeah, the Pact is optional.”Miraclestone: The cannibalistic orgy is like the culling at the end of the hunt, where the beasts have nothing left to kill but eachother. as far as I know every hunt ends with no more than 1 beast left.
The Bosmer who follow the Green Pact claim that Y'ffre used it to bind your natural shapeshifting form to the current elf form they have now. For all we know though this could be false. or maybe you dont need to follow the Pact to gain the benefit of stable form.”Drakevarg: “Bosmer aren't constantly at risk of warping into Wild Hunt beasts, it only happens when they deliberately use the ritual. More 'civilized' Bosmer freely ignore it. Either way, my original point of "the Wild Hunt would never happen by accident" stands.”Miraclestone: “when you think about it the Wild Hunt really is just the natural elements of Bosmers put into chaotic murderous overdrive. IDT there ever has been an accident wild hunt. and we sure as hell aren’t going to have one in Valenwood if we ever get there. So I'd say it doesn’t even matter if it could happen by accident because it never has or will from TES3 perspective. But I also agree IDT it should be possible to have an accident one.Infragris: “I agree that the Wild Hunt represents the Bosmer returned to their original, primeval state - whether that is "natural" is besides the point.”Miraclestone: “I think we can all agree that KDWD should be chaotic in structure which would go against the more common orderly structures we see in TES.”Drakevarg: “Corpus and the Wild Hunt should both prompt a gut "this isn't a thing that should be happening" response from the observer.”Infragris: “That's not the metric I would use for those manifestations. An important aspect of both those things is that they are perfectly alright from the pov of the one subjected to it, and may even be seen as preferable to the normal state of things - consider that Dagoth's chosen see corprus as enlightenment, divinity made flesh. The bizarre look of the thing to the observer is more indicative of the gulf between their respective perspectives, to me. So in other words, they look freakish to observers because the philosophy that animates them is alien to mundane nature.”Miraclestone: “Wild Hunt is disorderly so I would agree that it should be unsettling to some extent from that, but what is more important when talking about unsettling the observer is its size, strength, age and history. We need some attempt at objective feeling about a style if we want to be able to inform the observer visually, even if it’s a flawed attempt.”Drakevarg: “In the case of KDWD, I wouldn't get any more "logical" than a visual theme. Being a chaotic mess is literally the aesthetic point of the Wild Hunt.”

Saint Jiub posted some Oblivion concept art, the class artwork is a good reference for Breton clothing and armour:

We discussed the Septim lines of Wayrest. In conclusion, we arrived at this explanation: "Tiber gave control of the city to the Merchant Princes. There was some event which required intervention by the Empire, Pelagius II gave control of Wayrest to his eldest son from his second wife Magnus. Magnus gave control of Wayrest to Pelagius III who gave it to Cassynder. Cassynder gave it to Uriel IV. Uriel IV gave it to Andorak who lost it to Cephorus II during their war. Cephorus II, who was closer related to Kintrya II than the left branch, gave it to the closest relative to Magnus left who was a decendant of Jolethe. Jolethe's descendants have ruled ever since as an off branch of the Septims."

We discussed Lympan March's location. It was conceived that Lympan is near the river Strid at the broader between Cyrodiil and Valenwood near Anvil. This would explain why Lympan March was called a march (boarder), why KDWD traveled there when he was created in Colovia (closest place in Valenwood from Colovia), how it could have been washed away (river).

R-Zero expressed interest in having an alternative theory to the 'Camoran used KDWD as a beast of war” idea we came up with weeks ago. After Lympan March was washed away, KDWD covertly traveled to HR to relocate. R-Zero theorized that KDWD may be able to control himself to a larger degree than implied since the only accounts of uncontrollable rage come from the Wild Hunt creation events.

Cross-cultural influence for the iliac bay was brought up by Saint Jiub.Saint Jiub “Raga-inspired forms and motifs as interpreted by a Breton smith.”

A discussion took place about if these kind of cross-cultural armours and the lot, could be included, and where. We did come to an agreement that the kingdom of Wayrest will have some Raga influences, which could be found in their armour. Like Drakevarg noted, we shouldn’t go overboard with it, leave the actual cultural sets for the appropriate province mods.

14/15-10-2017

ThomasRuz drew up two plants; The arthorn and heart-plum.

16-10-2017

Roerich’s interpretation of the influence of Direnni culture on Breton Society:

“The Direnni family and the Direnni history of High Rock is mostly venerated and romanticised. They are not a threat by any means anymore, and the Bretons take pride in their ancestry. While the reality is more bloody, many areas of Breton culture views the Direnni Hegemony as a sort of ideal society of the past, that helped shape and foster the modern High Rock society, culture and traditions.”

“The Breton/Nede population wasn't really better off then, but they view their current society as a heir to the distant and mighty past, where benevolent Elven lords taught their subjects how a society should function. Especially in terms of culture, court traditions, magickal and alchemical traditions. It's not like the Bretons are Direnni revivalists, but they acknowledge the influence they had.”

“Long periods of instability and feuding kingdoms probably also helps to idealize something like the Direnni Hegemony. Unity in a land that has only seen conflict for almost as long as it can remember. It's more like "We should aim towards acting like the Direnni did", rather than "We should put the remaining Direnni in power."

Direnni ruins are the most common in the Western Reach.

Roerich “The Western Reach already had far more fortifications than elsewhere, and their loss of power happened very violently there. Most ruins were abandoned by the victors.”

ThomasRuz “Or the Direnni were locked up in their towers. The above-ground part might have been demolished, but the underground would still be Direnni.”

There was a discussion about how the world-space could be utilized the best, and how urbanized some parts of High Rock should be.

Miraclestone’s rough urbanization map:

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“The light red is like west gash levels, no red is like ashland levels, Dark Red will be where there are farms and stuff, medium will have some hamlets here and there.
It’s not a very good map for a concrete look at what the urban layout will actually be like”

Witch-Kings
The plan will be to have 5 dynasties of Witch-Kings, what these are needs to be discussed at a later point in time.

Idea on the surviving of the tradition of the last Witch-King remaining in power:

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Jehanna's Witch-King survived the onslaught because he enacted the ritual as a preventive measure, and let his servants be assimilated by the Ostern conquests. The servants, which remain in power still uphold the Witch-Kings' legacy.

Characterisation of Witch-Kings:

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Witch-Kings are an extension of nature; from which they lend their power from. They possessed a lot of bad qualities from nature, they are very impulsive, aggressive and greedy. Some Witch-Kings might distinguish themselves further, like Witch-King Bormic(http://project-tamriel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 829#p10462), who could be a glutton. They are also competitive and eager to show their power, selfish too, and would never cooperate against a greater threat, which in some cases was their demise.

Ostern
Further consolidation of Ostern culture:

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The modern Ostern are a mixture of different factors: The long rule of the Direnni in comparison to the west, the subsequent and (probably) more brutal reign of the Witch-Kings, the invasion of Bretons from the west and the cultural clash and mingling between these two.

Politically, the Ostern value the outwards display of power, might, more than in the other cultures.

Wayrest

Trade Princes
Wayrest will have 5 trade princes, each specializing in a certain field:

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1. Zepodie Sendu (M): Is already mentioned in TR’s Old Ebonheart, Wayrest’s emissary works for him. A Redguard who specializes in the trade of silks. Mostly operates from Sentinel.
2. Lamur-gra-Bar (F): Trades in weapons/armour/ore legally, facilitates Orc mercenaries and blood illegally. Is one of Gortwog’s associates (and maybe a questhook for the Thieves Guild too?). Lives in Wayrest
3. Taranneh Kingsfield (F): Specializes in the trade of spices and exotica.
4. Louis Notte (M): Facilitates the trading of most of the manufactured goods in Wayrest, is an exporter of Bretic luxury goods. Is in favour of Elysana.
5. Noebelle Jodoin (F): Specializes in food and drink, imports mainly from upwards the Bjoulsae. With the increasing tensions between Evermore and Wayrest, this Trade Prince will be under a lot of pressure.