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if you choose to not buy or adopt a dog that gets docked, cropped or dews, that is your decision, however I have no problem with it being done by a vet and then getting proper after care (this is key, particularly with cropped ears that are long, lots of aftercare in posting)

many dogs get either docked, cropped or both due to the breed standard, this is not illegal nor should it be, you don't like it them don't support the breed

also, many dogs in the crop and dock breeds, when up for adoption the ones with good jobs done they usually get adopted faster, they are more recognizable to the general public

Breeders who show their dogs have to conform to what the judges will pin.
We watch Westminster Kennel Club when we see it is on and I noticed all the Boxers in their groups had stand up ears. Not one natural.

Because dog showing folks in the US are just as much sheep as the hunter crowd.
What we need is one very outstanding dog owned by a breeder with the intestinal fortitude to leave the damn ears alone.
Then things might change.

Europe may show their dogs with out cropped ears or docked tails, but their German Shepard still looks and move like a freak of nature, their way is NOT the end all be all

I feel that crops and docks done well are like warmblood brands, they help the animal if they get in a rough spot, easy to spot and identify the animal and I support both

a fawn doberman looks a lot like a weim at a glance, many with natural ears get mistaken for a weim and owners have been told that they do not have a doberman by those that are not very familiar with either breed

Europe may show their dogs with out cropped ears or docked tails, but their German Shepard still looks and move like a freak of nature, their way is NOT the end all be all

I feel that crops and docks done well are like warmblood brands, they help the animal if they get in a rough spot, easy to spot and identify the animal and I support both

a fawn doberman looks a lot like a weim at a glance, many with natural ears get mistaken for a weim and owners have been told that they do not have a doberman by those that are not very familiar with either breed

Let me get this striaght--you actually believe that ear cropping is necessary because otherwise, some uninformed person might possibly mistake one breed of dog for another?
That's a fairly pathetic rationale.

As for criticizing the GSD, I haven't seen any show winning 'merican GSD's that I'd call sound in quite a long time, either.
But that is truly an apple/orange comparison.

Or are you implying that ear cropping would improve the gait of the GSD?

Let me get this striaght--you actually believe that ear cropping is necessary because otherwise, some uninformed person might possibly mistake one breed of dog for another?
That's a fairly pathetic rationale.

There are cases where it is easier to identify a dog's breed if the dog is cropped. For example, an uncropped Bouvier des Flandres looks an awful lot like a Black Russian Terrier.
I would suspect, however, that what Burbank was arguing was that a dog with a well done crop is more easily identified as a dog produced by a better breeder. In some breeds, a dog with cropped ears is more adoptable than a dog without cropped ears.
All in all, I don't think that a good crop done by a veterinarian with proper aftercare is at all comparable to what the original post was about, which was ear crops done by non-veterinarians without anesthesia and pain control. Almost all surgeries can be painful, but pain control can reduce the pain associated to a manageable level. Spaying and neutering are not pain-free procedures either, but they aren't considered cruel when done by a veterinarian with the best of modern technology.

never said it wasn't purely cosmetic, I said that I am fine with it and see nothing wrong with it when done properly by a vet and then is properly taken care of afterwards, b/c if you don't do the aftercare it is a very pointless procedure

in this day an age it is not needed, the original purpose is outlived, to keep an attacker from being able to grab the ears or tail and to look intimidating as a guard dog

but I feel that if ppl want to do it they can (have a vet do it, not a DIY), and if you (general you , not YOU) don't like it well to bad

What we need is one very outstanding dog owned by a breeder with the intestinal fortitude to leave the damn ears alone.
Then things might change.

European dogs are shown without cropping or docking.

Your ignorance is showing. In breeds with cropped ears, "natural" ears are not untouched. Freeze and snap, hole punch (don't know the details and don't want to know), glue and fold, tape and fold, etc, etc, etc. A truly natural eared schnauzer often has rogue ears that do not meet the standard. Flying nuns, half pricks, and giant satellites are unattractive and take away from the gorgeous shape of the head in many breeds. If you don't want breeders interfering with ears and tails, then personally petition to change the breed standard. PS tail docking serves a very important purpose in many breeds and prevents happy tail. Some dogs left undocked out of "compassion" later have a painful late life docking after the tail is broken, crushed, or otherwise damaged.

Comparing an ear crop done on a quality dog is apples and oranges to a poor pit getting hacked up with scissors in someones basement.

Your ignorance is showing. In breeds with cropped ears, "natural" ears are not untouched. Freeze and snap, hole punch (don't know the details and don't want to know), glue and fold, tape and fold, etc, etc, etc. A truly natural eared schnauzer often has rogue ears that do not meet the standard. Flying nuns, half pricks, and giant satellites are unattractive and take away from the gorgeous shape of the head in many breeds. If you don't want breeders interfering with ears and tails, then personally petition to change the breed standard. PS tail docking serves a very important purpose in many breeds and prevents happy tail. Some dogs left undocked out of "compassion" later have a painful late life docking after the tail is broken, crushed, or otherwise damaged.

Comparing an ear crop done on a quality dog is apples and oranges to a poor pit getting hacked up with scissors in someones basement.

Explain to me how a bench dog benefits from a docked tail or cropped ears? No show dog is out doing the job they were bred for that required either. I'm sorry but that's bunk. It may well be a breed standard, but I don't know many show dogs who are out doing a JOB anymore. They're on the bench.

And with proper management, there's no need for any dog to be docked or cropped these days.

My lab (not a breed that normally gets docked) has had swimmers tail. Should he have been docked? Or should I have paid better attention?

My poodle is not about to get his tail hung up in a darned thing other than the neighbor's dog--why is his tail docked? Makes no bloody sense. It's all for show and it's silly.

A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

It's a difficult topic, and it's not true that all Europeans/breeders from other countries embraced the no crop/no dock rules. Frankly, I think my breed is rather ugly with a tail, and a lot of other breeders feel the same way.

However, it is for cosmetic purposes only, and eventually I do think the U.S. will follow in some ways with breeders/exhibitors around the world.

I think there is a big, big difference between tail docking and ear cropping, and that surgically altering the ears is far more invasive and *cruel* (if one must use that word), than a shot of Novocaine, the docking, and one stitch on a 3 day old puppy.

I don't personally think that a well-done ear cropping is *cruel*, but it is a fairly "extensive" procedure to be done for purely cosmetic reasons.

My issue with *banning* ear cropping and tail docking, though, is that it is sort of like publishing the list of legal handgun onwers -- the good breeders will stop doing it, while the bad breeder/owners and backyard pit fighters won't. Not to mention that even the most horrific acts of abuse against dogs are very difficult to prosecute in many states. And yet, people will call the newspapers if someone spends $5K to produce a litter of fantastically-bred, healthy puppies and then docks the tails.

The BBC stopped showing Crufts on TV as a result of a programme that showed the welfare and health issues found in many pedigree breed. As a result, the Kennel Club started the Fit For Function campaign http://www.fitforfunction.org.uk/

I don't think we need to go on banning all we don't like, but we should have the right to not participate on what we don't like.
If I remember right, breed standards have been changed to permit dogs with natural ears.
It will be hard to find some cropped breeds winning in conformation with natural ears, although the rare, excellent one may.
We breed animals of all kinds to suit us, not so much more of a stretch to then surgically alter them to suit us even more, if some so desire, strange that it may seem to the rest of us to go there.

We had to care for 3 cropped dobies and one minpin and it was just not worth it, that is why we didn't again would do that to a puppy.
Totally unnecessary.
Tail docking, that is ok, if unnecessary, but I would not fight that if the breeders so choose.
I have right now a docked dog, rat terrier, that would have been fine with a tail also.

Working with dogs for decades I have seen so much, including bad crops where the ears never did stand up again and all other kinds of strange stuff people do to dog's appearance and training.

I think each one of us has to decide what they want to do with their animals, short of straight abuse, that is already illegal.

The problem here is how to define abuse.
For that, I would say, some times, it is not what we do, but how we go about it that is abuse.

I love making small talk in the picture line because it is so much fun hearing what others are up to. At a show this summer I talked to the BOB of a Papillon Specialty whose dog had his MACH. The majority of flat coated retrievers are dual performance. Many breeders are now putting rally, lure coursing, and therapy titles on their breeding stock. I know dogs who have won the breed, placed in group, and then walked across a parking lot to the lure coursing field and received a qualifying score towards a lure coursing title.

Of course there are still breeders who only breed for the ring. However, conformation is a dying sport. Savvy breeders are adapting and producing dogs that can hold their own in multiple rings.