What books you read is less important than the perspective you hold when exploring. In your new thread you posited the same concern that you focused on in this one.

What about in this life, would you say that you know what goes around comes around, somehow?

"What goes around comes around", "karma", and "Law of Attraction" generally refer to the same thing. If you are looking for evidence of retribution and divine punishment, you will likely find it because that is the way LoA works. The energy of thought focused on strong emotion creates a harmony and affinity for that which is held with consistency. It creates its own experience. If you focus on punishment, you will be creating it for yourself.

The underlying perspective is fear - likely over something you've done. Such fear is often debilitating. I see this as an inaccurate understanding. As extensions of a loving and benevolent Creator, we too are creators. Our thoughts and our focus of attention is the creative framework for all that we experience.

It seems wiser to ask questions concerning how love and open exploration rule the greater reality, and this world, than how we are going to get punished for missteps. Sure, the punishment can appear to be there, but only because we create the conditions and the experience through our own self-judgment, rather than seeing our actions in the context of growing through the choices we make in an atmosphere of Divine unconditional love. There is no God of hate, or God of anger, meeting out punishment over the endless choices we make through the ignorance of our conditioned thinking. There is only unconditional love from a benevolent creator eternally exploring the infinite possibilities in Life.

Give yourself a break. The only judgment that matters (made material) is that that you foist upon yourself. Life can be beautiful. You are a valued aspect of an infinite Creator. You have nothing to fear from a loving God. Explore lovingness. Make it central to your life experience and your life experience will blossom into the evolving beauty that it can be.

Now that it has been three days without coffee( to be exact, last coffee I had was on Friday morning, and it's now Sunday night 20:16, not to forget to mention copious amounts of sugar to go with it) I can say that the love is slowly coming back into my heart. The next step is to give up tobacco.

I believe that you are trying to help me, and it's working. It might be still a little bit hard to shake of those experiences, but, hopefully we will get there.

Eckhart's teaching is very well aligned with the Islamic and Christian teachings. It is just that the words used and approach used are different. When reading any religious material (specially the quran), do not interpret them literally. You have to know that religious teachings came for a variety of different people and speaks to each at his own level of thinking. There is great wisdom in that. As a person of spirituality, you would be surprised that many of the religion materials speak to you in a deeper level that is almost tailored to your needs and state of mind.

What helped me was a discovery of a deep intuition that there is reality beyond our egoic labels. This is well articulated in the Ontological argument from Anselm of Canterbury, which states that God is the greatest thing that could be imagined. For most spiritual seekers, they know that reality transcends such dogmas, such eternal damnation. I was in that same boat years back, where I had gotten stuck in Fundamentalist Catholicism, where I believed that I had to believe exactly as the catechism told me to, and follow their morals down to the letter, or I would go to Hell. This was making me horribly anxious, especially thinking about all those "Cafeteria" catholics now burning in Hell. I could not heal until I had this experience that Reality is greater than some power greater than my understanding, and transcending silly dogmas like Eternal Torment. In fact, many Christians are starting to discover Universal Salvation, which was the majority view in the early Church except in places dominated by a political agenda. As for Islam, I think that there are many Sufi's, and some other school of Islamic thought that believes in Universal Salvation. However, if you see the Christians and Muslims who are hardcore Hellfire types, there is so much unconsciousness. I have at least found that they cannot even entertain the possibility that their understanding is not the only way. Plus, we can clearly see in the world that there is no strictly good or bad side Hellfire beliefs state. However, even from an intellectual POV, a world so dualistic with heaven or hell is so juvenile

Ervin wrote:Thanks WW, so do you believe in justice? Whether you cease to exist like the belief held by Jehovah's witnesses or Daoists, or you go to hell for some time or forever like in other Christian or Islamic faiths.

Justice is a curious concept. At its heart is the assumption that there is right and wrong. Right and wrong are judgments of course - human judgments. So who decides what is wrong that must be addressed in terms of justice? Don't we each have our own criteria made up of what causes us some type of pain? Don't we each decide where justice should be applied based on our own consideration of events? Isn't there differences in human terms based on life experience and the environmental conditions in which we live?

Justice is solely a human concept. In order for there to be justice in the larger consciousness reality, our true home, there would have to be judgments of right and wrong. That is simply not the case. The criteria in perceiving experience is based on its value towards the evolution and expansion of consciousness. How can an abused child who is taught to hate by authoritative parents and societies be held accountable and punished for the ideas and beliefs forced fed into their life perspective? Beaten into submission and rewarded for conformity to approved beliefs is hardly a level playing field compared to a child raised in love and appreciation for life. So how does justice apply to such a person so negatively raised?

From a greater consciousness perspective however, all experience has value because it adds an understanding of life only actual experience can offer. So difficult and negative life experiences, to which some believe justice must be applied, are seen in a loving and compassionate appreciation for the sacrifice of pain that was undertaken. There is a greater good that is not easily seen from the human eye view.

Ervin wrote:
I suppose that for a long time there were Sufis in Islam, you have Quakers in Christianity, both believe that everyone will be forgiven.

Forgiveness is also a human concept that is misunderstood. There is no forgiveness in the greater consciousness perspective. Because there is no judgment of wrong doing, there is nothing to forgive. There is only unconditional love and appreciation, that all of us will return to, once our human life is complete. Again, it's about value in life experience, not some human standard of right and wrong.

Forgiveness rightly understood is a gift to the forgiver, not the forgiven. When you or I or any human forgives another, it's based in the belief that that other has done something wrong that may be forgiven. The truth is that forgiveness, genuine forgiveness, releases the forgiver from their own constricting judgment that someone did something wrong. Feel it in your own being. Someone hurts you and you are angry and full of blame for this someone. Feel how forgiveness relieves that energy. It frees us from our own constricted feelings born of judgment.

Now apply that same forgiveness to yourself for the judgments of wrong you condemn yourself with. Self-forgiveness (not justification) is one of the most valuable tools we can apply in creating a more loving and enjoyable life for ourselves. And it creates an internal atmosphere of learning from our missteps. Experience is well known to be the best teacher.

Ervin wrote:But if everybody is forgiven, then there is no justice. I used to think that justice is just a pretty name for revenge, but I am not so sure anymore.

There is justice, just not in the way of some external Divine punishment. 'Wrong' doing is its own punishment - and negatively judging others, or self, qualifies as such. ('Wrong' in this context refers to what causes us pain and creates limiting perspectives and experience.) If nearness, or alignment, with 'God' or our true self or greater being, brings us feelings of love and joy; and separation and isolation creates confusion and fear and pain, then 'wrong' applies to the acts that cause that separation and the rest. So justice is the resulting experience for wrong thinking and the choices that lead us away from the alignment that naturally brings us joy.

By the way, your views suit me, but how can you be sure, how can I be sure?

These views suit you because you feel their essential truth. As to being sure, confidence tends to grow with time. The primary requirement is genuineness in your search for truth and a willingness to allow the truth to be what it is, whatever it is. What more can one offer to the Source of all life than one's own integrity in their desire to perceive and act with devotion to, and love for truth? After all, isn't that basis of you're asking?

Continue your exploration. Do so with integrity. Be skeptical, but not cynical. Some of the strangest things in life may seem that way because we don't 'yet' understand. Always leave room to change your perspective in favor of what feels most right. Logic matters, but the elements of logic change as one grows in perspective. Don't get hung up in a logic of limited perspectives. Most everyone's opinion is based in a logic that seems solid to them. Yet beliefs vary widely. All are based on a perceived logic. Feeling, in the quiet of mind, is a surer way to clarity than concepts alone. You're doing well, asking fair and relevant questions. Feel the truth.

logan65 wrote:when you say human do you also mean unconscious or in the head?

Sure. Most judgments we make are a result of conditioned beliefs. Beliefs are rarely reviewed because they are assumed to be truths. Otherwise they wouldn't be beliefs. Our emotions however, are a kind of litmus test on the nature of those beliefs. If we don't feel good about our judgments they are likely 'off the mark'.

I very much appreciate you answering my questions ww now here's another one....do you think you can be in touch with a higher power,"god",our essential nature,true self,spirit of the universe,etc,if we are in our head?....I've been a member of alcoholics anonymous for almost 23 yrs and we are taught that we need to have a power greater than ourselves to help us get over our addiction. I see people in aa daily who are obviously so far in their head they don't even know it and all they talk about is god..what do you think about that?......reason I ask you is I read a response you gave to another poster about religion and it's exactly the way I have felt all my life...I was raised (southern Baptist fire brimstone } that if you did not believe "jesus" walked on water you were goin straight to a lake of fire (hell} and burn for eternity.lol...it was as a child and continues to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of with all due respect.

logan65 wrote:....do you think you can be in touch with a higher power,"god",our essential nature,true self,spirit of the universe,etc,if we are in our head?....I've been a member of alcoholics anonymous for almost 23 yrs and we are taught that we need to have a power greater than ourselves to help us get over our addiction. I see people in aa daily who are obviously so far in their head they don't even know it and all they talk about is god..what do you think about that?......

I don't want to suggest that everyone in AA, or religion for that matter, is only in their head. There is an emotional component that recognizes there is something Larger in life beyond their previously conditioned viewpoint. It is this recognition that gives them the strength to live in a more positive way than they might otherwise be able to do.

That said, for most there is likely to be a context of separation from the God they imagine. This context is very much an 'in the head' perspective that while useful in one context is limiting in another. But then we all have a certain quality of 'in the head' perspective on the nature of God/Source. The thing is - are we willing to be guided to ever greater clarity through a more direct relationship with our own feeling Insight than the external pointers that pretty much everyone with an opinion is wanting to offer? Are the answers to life and being out there in some book or teaching? Or is there a more direct access that is the inner nature of us all?

thanks a lot ww..first off I read pon about a year ago and it has given me inner peace for the 1st time in my life. of course it's human nature to want to share that with my fellow aa members. trouble is,not really trouble but when I share in meetings,about 27 out of a group of 30 will look at me like I just stepped out of a spaceship.lol...it says in our book that our problem centers in our mind but that conditioned mind/ego is hard to let go of.....I've been reading everything you and kiki wrote ww and I have learned so much...thanks again to you kind sir.

I'm pleased that you have found some benefit in our writings. That's the second most important reason I do it. The first of course, is selfish in that I get something out of it every time I feel out an insight and direction. As to your fellow AA's, you might find a better course is to ask them questions that lead them to their own inner knowing.