Baron Davis’ injury took on a painful new meaning on Wednesday, when the Charlotte Observer reported the Knicks’ injuries entering Wednesday night’s game against the Charlotte Bobcats. Davis, who has yet to debut in a blue and orange uniform due to injury, was listed as “recovering from a herniated dick.”

@5, I agree with starting Shump and TD, but if you are going to cut anyone on this team, its got to be Bibby. It is pretty clear he has nothing left in the tank. At least Lin’s best days are ahead of him.

We are rapidly approaching the point at which his pre-All-star game #s start to look a little bit like an outlier, especially considering very few analysts (for what THAT’S worth) thought he was capable of it.

I think Bill Walker should be getting most of Landry’s minutes. He’s also a very good rebounder for the guard position, plays better man-to-man defense than Landry, and has 3 years in the league with 58+ TS. Sure he’s a low-basketball-IQ guy, but all we want out of the 2 guard spot in this offense is the ability to hit the 3 and to not be a total sieve on defense.

btw as cgreene mentioned yesterday there are some rumblings out there re: trading STAT for Howard in some way shape or form. 1st was from the usually reliable Ken Berger yesterday (although that was mostly about Adidas wanting DH12 in NYC) and again today from some Boston reporter. My guess is that this is Orlando trying to get better offers, but hmmmmm….

Presumably it would be something resembling STAT+Chandler for Howard and the corpse of Turkoglu – but you’d have to do that in 1 second if that were ever offered.

I think if Shump starts you need to start Fields at the two. This would facilitate two potentially good plans:

1. Kickstart a running game that can better serve Fields leaking out in transition (where he’s most effective). I think the half court offense has been the most crippling factor to his once-revered game (post-Melo).

2. Move TD to the bench as a plug-in scorer for the second unit, where he’s been his most effective for the past two years.

I know D12 is awesome and a physical freak of the first order and is great on D. He does, however, strike me as a low IQ player especially in terms of passing out of the post. His moves around the hoop are still very awkward 6 years into his career.

Is:
TD/BD
Shump/Fields
Melo
Jeffries/Turk
Howard

significantly better than:
TD/BD
Shump/Fields
Melo
Amare
Chandler

And is there any chance we get out of that deal without including Shump?

@15 –
How about we send a copy of Berri’s book with this trade offer and see if they’ll bite?

Fields, Harrelson, STAT, Chandler

for

Howard, Turkoglu, filler

and explain our reluctance to include Shumpert as a public service them – “you wouldn’t want another inefficient chucker on your team”. We could even trade for Reggie Evans and Troy Murphy to ensure that they get the best deal.

cgreene:
I know D12 is awesome and a physical freak of the first order and is great on D.He does, however, strike me as a low IQ player especially in terms of passing out of the post.His moves around the hoop are still very awkward 6 years into his career.

You’re criticizing the offensive play of a guy who’s got a .578 eFG for his career?

That’s fourth all-time, man. Are you serious? His moves are awkward?

WHO CARES? He’s incredibly efficient, and easily the best center of the last five years. Bynum may challenge him in a year or two, but right now, he’s the best. And the “low IQ/limited offensive moves” thing doesn’t mean a damn thing when you’re that efficient.

FYI I was mostly joking in #16 – but @17 — unless Orlando wants to tear the whole thing down and truly suck for a few years, a STAT/Chandler package is not bad. it’s certainly better than an injured Brook Lopez and 3-4 late 20s draft picks. A lineup of:

is actually a pretty good team. Nelson is a good PNR PG, Richardson, Redick, and Anderson all spread the floor, allowing Amare to do his PNR thing and Chandler to be a middle-class-man’s Dwight Howard in the middle. With SVG coaching them up on defense, they could be pretty good.

I’m not sure what other offers are out there. I’d take STAT/Chandler over the Houston pupu platter. I’d take Bynum+Gasol but the Lakers aren’t offering it, especially with the way Bynum is just killing it this year.

flossy:
Sorry kiddos, pretty sure the Knicks can’t trade Chandler for like 6 months having just signed him.

According to Larry Coon’s FAQ (which might not yet be updated to reflect this new CBA), just-signed FA’s can’t be signed for 3 months. Interestingly… Chandler signed his contract 12/13/11. NBA trade deadline is 3 months and 2 days later – 3/15/12. Hmmm….

You don’t get much more “pulling stuff out of thin air” as a reporter than reporting a STAT for Howard trade. I mean, don’t get me wrong, of course I would love it, but come on, that’s not even a pipe dream that’s how unlikely it is.

WHO CARES? He’s incredibly efficient, and easily the best center of the last five years. Bynum may challenge him in a year or two, but right now, he’s the best. And the “low IQ/limited offensive moves” thing doesn’t mean a damn thing when you’re that efficient.

LOL for once we totally completely absolutely agree!!
And regardless of his offensive IQ, his defensive IQ is Einstein-like.

We are rapidly approaching the point at which his pre-All-star game #s start to look a little bit like an outlier, especially considering very few analysts (for what THAT’S worth) thought he was capable of it.

I think Bill Walker should be getting most of Landry’s minutes.

Frank– I don’t think you can say that the first 54 games of his career were an outlier, considering he has only played in a grand total of 91 games including the playoffs. 60% of the sample says he’s way above average in several aspects of the game. And the other 40% of the sample says he is above average. (I’m not sure how you calculated your numbers here, but post Carmelo trade last year I think Fields posted a .546 TS% and got 6.2 rebounds/36. He also shot a higher 3pt% in the final 27 games of last season (39.3%) than he did in his first 27 games (35.1%).

It really wasn’t until the playoffs last year when Fields’ game fell apart completely, so it’s only been 10 games that he’s been playing like the 2nd round pick that he was. I think the problem is that Fields played so high above expectation for the first 54 games of his rookie year and we all got accustomed to it. Now that he’s going through his growing pains we want to take his minutes away? In favor of Bill Walker?

Like I said, I’m not sure how you got your numbers for Fields post all-star break. If it’s just a matter of pushing a few buttons, is there any way you can run the same numbers with regard to Amar’e? Certainly Fields isn’t the only Knick who’s efficiency numbers dipped with the addition of Carmelo. (Maybe Bill Walker can take Amar’e’s minutes too :)

@26 – the post-AS break #s include 28 reg season games in 10-11, 4 playoff games, and 6 games this season. I just added up the #s, put them into my trusty excel TS% calculator to get the TS%. For the rebounds, I basically added up all his minutes and rebounds during that period, calculated his reb/min, and multiplied by 36. I sort of did it quickly so it’s possible I’m wrong, but he has been so horrible recently (barely averaging 1 rebound every 10 minutes played – 19 reb in 183 min this year, ) that I think the rebound #s are probably right. And this year he has a TS of 49.8 in 6 games, and in the playoffs he had a TS of 19.8 in 4 games, so 28 games of 54.6 and 10 games in the 30-35 range might conceivably drag his TS to 51.4 for the whole period.

For what it’s worth, Shump should start, with TD coming off the bench.
Fields should continue because, my friend Frank, who I typically agree with, I don’t view his performance in the first 52 games of last year as an outlier. I view the various teams he’s played with since as outliers. He’s a young kid being asked to constantly adjust his role in an offense where everyone seems out of whack.
I think Bill Walker needs to be used similarly to Shawn Williams, which won’t require a lot of brain power. Defense a two or a three and on offense find a place on the arc and wait for a pass and drill it. The guy is a very reliable 3-pt shooter and the Knicks need to use him as such.
Shump should share ball handling responsibilities with Melo and with TD until Baron comes on board.
But Shump, even as a rook, will bring reliable energy and defensive intensity where TD is clearly lacking. Shump’s size also can’t be ignored. He’s 6’5 and 220. TD is 6’1 and nine score. Further, TD’s defense seems to consist of reach-arounds as his opposite blows by. Indeed, a lot of Knicks lately seem to have mastered the reach around…which when referencing post #2, would seem odd.lol.
I think all this Amare angst is about as hormonal as my teenage son. As soon as Amare clicks, and he will, we’ll all be back to, “he’s a beast,” “his jumper is unstoppable from 15,” “he’s one of the best finishers in the game,” and “he can put the team on his back and carry it.” I think what we are seeing is Melo and Amare and Chandler learning how to play together, right now, without a clear point guard.
Amare at the start of the playoffs against the Celts was a man among boys before he got hurt. Then Melo got a taste of being the only scorer on a bad team. Now they need to work together and it’s an adjustment.
This board – myself included – has become so emotional…lol

While of course this isn’t equal value for Howard, remember that Orlando is not going to get equal value for Howard anyway. There are only a handful of places in which Howard will sign an extension, so Orlando’s hand is weak here. Right now it seems like Lakers, Warriors, Nets and Mavericks are the teams in play. Is it possible that ownership in Orlando would rather have a name player, an All-Star like Amar’e Stoudemire rather than a Brook Lopez/Marshon Brooks package, or a Stephen Curry/draft pick package? It might not be as remote a possibility as it seems.

If this miracle of a trade did happen– and I know it is a longshot– then you slide Chandler over to power forward and you have the nastiest defensive frontcourt the league has seen in quite some time. Baron Davis/Iman Shumpert/Carmelo Anthony/Tyson Chandler/Dwight Howard is the stuff dreams are made of.

Frank:
I sort of did it quickly so it’s possible I’m wrong, but he has been so horrible recently…

Even if your calculations are right, I think your conclusion is wrong. Why are the 10 games he’s played badly more of an indication of his value than the 81 games he played extremely well in?

Expectation for Fields went from 0 (fire Walsh posts on draft day) to 100 (comparisons to Grant Hill and John Havlicek) during his first month in the league. The fact that he is somewhere in that spectrum, and has shown an ability to play at an above average NBA level is still a coup. Young players struggle.

I have to say I really don’t get the anti-fields sentiment going around. Amar’e has been just as bad (worse per $) since the Carmelo trade. Fields, at least, still has upside.

Alan Hahn didn’t immediately shoot down these STAT-DH12 rumors… not yet at least. @22 – Obviously not having to give up Chandler would be great, but I can’t imagine ORL can’t get a better offer than Amare (and his $80MM guaranteed, uninsured) straight up. I’d take the Brook Lopez + picks package over just Amare, assuming Lopez shows prior to the trade deadline that he is healthy.

Z: Even if your calculations are right, I think your conclusion is wrong. Why are the 10 games he’s played badly more of an indication of his value than the 81 games he played extremely well in?

Expectation for Fields went from 0 (fire Walsh posts on draft day) to 100 (comparisons to Grant Hill and John Havlicek) during his first month in the league. The fact that he is somewhere in that spectrum, and has shown an ability to play at an above average NBA level is still a coup. Young players struggle.

I have to say I really don’t get the anti-fields sentiment going around. Amar’e has been just as bad (worse per $) since the Carmelo trade. Fields, at least, still has upside.

I’m not saying that he shouldn’t play at all, or that he’s still not better than expected. 2nd round picks barely ever play at all, and the fact that you can get any production at all at a bargain basement price is still a plus.

BUT…

He has been BELOW average since the All-Star break last year all things considered. A TS% of .546 is barely above average, and for the last 10 games he has played, he’s been WAAAAY below average. His rebounding was out of the world pre-ASB, then it was just good, and now it’s below average. He’s not a good defender. He’s not a good ballhandler.

Anyway, I’m not a Fields believer but I’m also not saying he’s unsalvageable. even if he ends up being 80% of the player he was in the 1st half last year, he should remain in the rotation. His shooting has been so God-awful that you figure it has to get better. I hope it does.

Part of the problem may be that his usage has increased to 16.3 from 12.5. He definitely seems to be forcing his O more than when he was playing well last year. I’d MUCH rather him pull the ball out even if it ends up in a Melo iso. I’ll take Melo iso over Landry forced shot any day of the week.

LOL and you think an Amare-Howard straight up trade isn’t? I’m just saying I’d rather have Lopez + picks than Amare straight up if I’m Orlando.

Trade Machine is down, but Amare/Chandler for DH12 and the albatross that is Turkoglu is possibly as good a present-value offer as Orlando will ever get. Bynum+Gasol is never happening, and I just don’t think any other team has the assets and will to get it done.

The problem is that a good part of Fields success came with Amar’e playing center and floor being spread. That gave him plenty of room to make cuts and crash the offensive glass, both of which he did very well. That room disappeared once Melo arrived and there’s even less space now that Chandler’s here as well. The three point shooting is a bit of a mystery- he shot it pretty well in March after Melo’s arrival but has fallen off a cliff since. As this is now really the only positive he brings in the offense as it’s now constructed, if he can’t get that back on track he shouldn’t be playing heavy minutes, especially since his defensive rebounding has fallen off a cliff as well. This isn’t a guy who has a long track record of NBA success so I don’t think anyone knows whether his poor play now or his great play in the first half of last year is the outlier- most likely he’s somewhere in between. He might benefit from playing on a second unit with Amar’e getting minutes at center as the spacing would be closer to what it was when he was having such success.

From a pure basketball perspective, sure, maybe it makes more sense for Orlando to take Brook Lopez and some draft picks. But Orlando is not a hardcore sports town, and even with Brook Lopez and some draft picks you’re not winning anything for a long time, so I could certainly see the allure of trading for local boy Stoudemire, an ESPN-approved “star” that casual fans have heard of.

“I know D12 is awesome and a physical freak of the first order and is great on D.He does, however, strike me as a low IQ player especially in terms of passing out of the post.His moves around the hoop are still very awkward 6 years into his career.”

Seconding THCJ comments.

Howard is crazy good. Look how bad Orlando’s roster is and they are 5-2. Jameer is a decent point guard, but other than that it’s Ryan Anderson and the Rejects.

And that’s pretty consistent with the rest of Howard’s career. He has never played with a true star quality player and has cranked out four 50 win seasons. The guy is a one man team pretty much.

I don’t have any answer for why Fields has disappeared but I am glad I didn’t jump on that train as hard as I did with David Lee…..

Let’s not get carried away on my point about D12. All I was saying was a) the lineup with him and without Chandler with our current roster is not championship caliber and b) regardless of his high efficiency his offensive game has holes that can be exploited by opposing defenses. He needs to be surrounded by good passing and shooting offensive players. I think he’d be better paired with a great pg than with Melo. His team did lose to a very mediocre low efficiency Atlanta team in round 1 last year.

I actually thought he should be MVP last year and I posted that so I think very highly of him.

Is there anyway for Amar’e to get rid of those extra 20+ lbs of muscle he added on? I think I remember sometime in Danilo’s 2nd year stating that he added some (useless) muscle to his body and his shot was worse than it was in his rookie year. I don’t have any real evidence stating that added muscular bulk = demands you to alter your shot a bit.

But still I don’t see any benefit of that added bulk. Kobe a couple of years ago added bulk to help him push defenders while he’s crab dribbling in the post. Unless if Amar’e has a secret post game (yeah right) that turns him into LaMarcus Aldrige, lose the weight and hit that 15ft jumper already.

@43 – speaking of post game – maybe Amare should learn one? And maybe do less of the bull-in-china-shop-charge-into-3-defenders offense? that way he can do something rather than shoot 16-23 foot jumpers when no one passes him the ball in a PNR.

I have always thought Orlando misused Howard a little. He is probably the second best player in the NBA but he is not Hakeem or Shaq offensively. This isn’t a dig it just isn’t his game yet Orlando really wanted to turn him into a pound it in player and always surrounded him with one dimensional shooters. This only works when he is playing against teams that lack true centers, against teams with a good defensive presence in the middle they can guard him 1 on 1 and no one else can do anything.

I actually would love to see him play on a team where he is paired with a great defensive PF and can be the second option. Focus on owning the paint defensively and scoring on putbacks and pnr’s.

I doubt Orlando is in a rush to trade Howard. They overpaid J-Rich and Glenn Davis. My guess is they think if they do well between now and the deadline, they’ll try to persuade Howard that he has a chance. Ryan Anderson has taken huge strides this year (WS/48 of .331!!), Redick has emerged as a very strong 6th man, and Turkoglu even appears to be having a bit of a renaissance. They’re 5-2. Admittedly, their schedule has been quite cushy (best win was vs. the Rockets), but if they can sustain the momentum, the fickle Howard may back off his demands.

Actually, Noah, Deng and picks for Howard and Turk is probably the best deal for Orlando, but I’d hate to see that…

Frank: LOL and you think an Amare-Howard straight up trade isn’t?I’m just saying I’d rather have Lopez + picks than Amare straight up if I’m Orlando.

Trade Machine is down, but Amare/Chandler for DH12 and the albatross that is Turkoglu is possibly as good a present-value offer as Orlando will ever get.Bynum+Gasol is never happening, and I just don’t think any other team has the assets and will to get it done.

Ben R:
I have always thought Orlando misused Howard a little. He is probably the second best player in the NBA but he is not Hakeem or Shaq offensively. This isn’t a dig it just isn’t his game yet Orlando really wanted to turn him into a pound it in player and always surrounded him with one dimensional shooters. This only works when he is playing against teams that lack true centers, against teams with a good defensive presence in the middle they can guard him 1 on 1 and no one else can do anything.

I actually would love to see him play on a team where he is paired with a great defensive PF and can be the second option. Focus on owning the paint defensively and scoring on putbacks and pnr’s.

Did you miss the part where he’s FOURTH in league history in effective field goal percentage?

rohank:
I think we desperately need Spree to post “Firsties” in tonight’s game thread.

We’re 1 for 1 (1.000) when he does that. ;-)

Small sample, hardly representative. Also, this is a place for grown, literate men (and women?). Not a place for grown, literate men to unironically write “firsties” so he feels special on an internet message board.

I’d rather argue to convince jon abbey that he’s wrong about anything than have to read that mindless, time-wasting nonsense.

Not sure if this was already posted but this is what D’antoni had to say concerning his rationale behind NOT starting Shumpert:

“I want to make sure everybody is good and confident and everything,” he said. “Every time you throw a pebble in the water, there’s ripples. I just want to make sure the team’s good, healthy mentally.”

Not even a thinly veiled attempt to point out that they are doing whatever necessary to keep Fields’ confidence up…I like him and all, but as a second year player who was a 4-year college baller, do we really need to be babying him to the point where a demotion would likely break his already precarious confidence? I mean, c’mon already….

@52 I like that D’Antoni put it our there to see if Landry and TD respond. Tell you one thing, if Shump outplays those two guys again, how unnerving will it be for Landry and TD to hear “We Want Shumpert” from the Garden crowd right from the start of the next home game?

I was not saying Howard was ineffective at all. I think Howard is very effective in the Orlando offense but they have always opted for stretch fours that were poor defenders and poor rebounders under the guise that Howard needed a team full of shooters to be effective. I think Howard can be just as effective with a traditional 4 and a more dynamic offense. The problems with Orlando offense’s is that if the opposing team can guard Howard 1on1 Howard might still have a great game but the rest of the offense will grind to a halt. That is not a knock on Howard, like I said 2nd best player in the NBA, dominant on both sides of the ball. It is a knock on the team Orlando has always tried to put around him.

the interesting thing about Howard is how the right matchup (admittedly only a few) can totally shut him down one on one, more than any other superstar I can remember. Rasheed Wallace and Kendrick Perkins are the two main ones, I wonder what his career numbers look like vs. Tyson Chandler too.

Shameless self-promotion dept. – I’ve got another NY Times ditty up if anyone wants to take a gander. (though the editors there don’t seem to fancy my verbosity and have sliced and diced it as Clyde would say. Grumble, grumble)