Treck wrote:I really dont see much benefit in choosing avoidance stats over hit/exp tbh.As long as im block capped, id much rather go for hit/exp cap than gaining 5% avoidance.Trying to buff the RNG doesnt seem as usefull as guaranteeing you do a lot more dmg.But thats just my take on it.

theckhd wrote:So, I'm a tard then? Because I don't find it appealing for a variety of reasons.

You should be easily CTC-capping in DS. We won't need to be seeking mastery out, but instead should be looking at what beneficial secondary stats we can get after capping mastery. That might mean stamina, avoidance, or hit/exp depending on your goals, but it generally won't mean intellect gear.

It has the same stam as every other cloak of that ilevel. with the most midigation.

theckhd wrote: That's ignoring the fact that there's almost no good reason to go with dual stamina trinkets this tier, because one of the stamina trinkets has a 100% useless proc (mastery).

Did i have to say they were from this tier? whats wrong with scales of life..nothing.

theckhd wrote:In terms of CTC, you're gaining around 1.4% coverage. That's not game-breaking, and it's certainly not enough to account for an entire mastery->stam trinket trade. It's 109 mastery, or two and a half gems worth, assuming we're even still using mastery gems at that point. .

Im selling a cloak thats 1.4% shittyier than the one your wearing. want to buy it ? didnt think so.

Having 1.4% less CTC does not automatically make it shittier. Having a pile of useless or suboptimal stats on a cloak, however, does.

I think you need to stop worshiping at the altar of mastery, and think holistically about your gear. At a certain point the mastery on that cloak is not going to be useful, and the intellect on it is already useless.

In FL the Agi cloak still made sense because of that tier's itemization. In this tier, wasting stats on the cloak isn't necessary, so I don't know why you'd go out of your way to waste itemization points.

Also, just because someone disagrees with you and can make a ration argument as to why they disagree is no reason to descend into insults. You have yet to come up with an argument other than "1.4% CTC from Mastery is better," as far as I can tell. If you can substantiate your line of reasoning, you may change some minds.

theckhd wrote:So, I'm a tard then? Because I don't find it appealing for a variety of reasons.

You should be easily CTC-capping in DS. We won't need to be seeking mastery out, but instead should be looking at what beneficial secondary stats we can get after capping mastery. That might mean stamina, avoidance, or hit/exp depending on your goals, but it generally won't mean intellect gear.

It has the same stam as every other cloak of that ilevel. with the most midigation.

You missed the point. You can convert excess mastery to Stamina by switching a mastery gem to a stamina gem (or a trinket, for that matter). Thus, you can't just consider the two items independently, you have to think about the rest of your gear and how those items interact with it. Since we'll be mastery-capping, you're choosing to use an Int/mast/hit item just to reforge that mastery off of your gear somewhere else, likely to dodge/parry. Instead, you could use the Str/parry/(exp->mast) cloak and keep that mastery on another item. By doing that, you gain some parry and expertise instead of a less useful secondary (hit) and less useful primary (Int).

Rokh wrote:

theckhd wrote: That's ignoring the fact that there's almost no good reason to go with dual stamina trinkets this tier, because one of the stamina trinkets has a 100% useless proc (mastery).

Did i have to say they were from this tier? whats wrong with scales of life..nothing.

So, you're choosing to use a sub-optimal cloak for excess mastery in order to shift more mastery on other items to stam... only to use a lower-ilvl stam trinket with less stam?

Hopefully you see the flaw in that logic, right? You could be converting mastery to stamina via gems and use current-tier trinkets, and end up with more mastery and more stamina overall.

Rokh wrote:

theckhd wrote:In terms of CTC, you're gaining around 1.4% coverage. That's not game-breaking, and it's certainly not enough to account for an entire mastery->stam trinket trade. It's 109 mastery, or two and a half gems worth, assuming we're even still using mastery gems at that point. .

Im selling a cloak thats 1.4% shittyier than the one your wearing. want to buy it ? didnt think so.

... you people are crazy.

It's not 1.4% "shittier," because you pay for that extra CTC in other areas (you'll take more damage overall and produce less threat). You're pretending that it's a hands-down superior cloak, but it simply isn't. Giving me more CTC when I'm already at cap doesn't help me. A bucket of water isn't worth a dime if you're standing in the middle of a goddamn lake.

But whatever. I must be crazy, what the fuck would I know about tanking.

theckhd wrote: Hopefully you see the flaw in that logic, right? You could be converting mastery to stamina via gems and use current-tier trinkets, and end up with more mastery and more stamina overall.

Im gonna stop replyin to this cause your ability to read is pretty much zero.

Ive said I dont use mastery gems, I already have 99% 60stam gems and I only use off color gems when the net result is 60stam.

theckhd wrote:But whatever. I must be crazy, what the fuck would I know about tanking.

There are many approches to survival.

Im going to assume you generate more threat than me, you also dodge more than me, you also parry more than me.

We both have 102% ctc, and I have in the range of 30k more health than you. You can take from that what you want, but what I take from that is my job is to live, and i do it better than you.

If you want more DPS, go for the str Valor cloakIf you want more avoidance go for the str Valor cloakIf you want more sta go for agi Rhyolith cloakIf you want full CTC and have to use the int cloak which amounts to 44 Mastery worth of CTC - something is wrong.

I don't think that we will ever be wanting to "dump" mastery considering we are forced to drop mastery in several places. But as Theck points out, it's quite easy to get into a situation where with your current pieces, you can't regem enough to take advantage of additional mastery as stamina.

I see a lot of posts about how easily we CTC cap in 4.3. That's missing the point entirely. Since early Firelands mastery has meant stamina, and the only question is how to fit the pieces together. If you'd rather fit in, say, the Mirror trinket, your BiS shoulders are likely going to change...

Personally, I can't see going for a caster cloak this tier. I just doubt that piece will fit.

Yeah, everything you said makes sense. My phrasing to "dump" mastery may have been a little over-the-top and misleading, lol

I simply meant that, with the higher ilvl gear from the new raid (especially heroics), it's going to be a lot easier to CTC cap and therefore we don't need to choose only gear pieces with Mastery on them, we can choose pieces with dodge/parry or avoidance/hit or expertise etc. (hence the "dumping" mastery, lol)

Indeed you are right, the key is fitting all the right gear pieces together, like a puzzle. And I'm in complete agreement that the INT cloak just doesn't seem like it's going to be the best fit in that puzzle.

Also to Rohk:

You're really getting too hostile about this all imo. I know you said you wouldn't respond again, so I assume you won't. But take it easy, please. We're all tanks here trying to collaborate, trying to share knowledge and aim to be the best that we can be there's no need to make snarky comments to a guy like Theck, who's contributions to the tanking community are widely known and undoubtedly impressive.

Im going to assume you generate more threat than me, you also dodge more than me, you also parry more than me.

We both have 102% ctc, and I have in the range of 30k more health than you. You can take from that what you want, but what I take from that is my job is to live, and i do it better than you.

I'd love to see your armory then, because I find that more than a little hard to believe. It was nearly impossible, if not completely impossible to go dual-stam trinkets in Firelands and simultaneously use no mastery or mast/stam gems. The rating just wasn't there. And if you're using one mastery trinket and one stamina trinket, then I can't see how you'd have 30k health on me, since I'm in more or less best-in-slot heroic Firelands gear already, and reforge/gem for stamina after cap.

30k health is a lot; that's around 2000 stamina or 1300 mastery. You're saying that you somehow have 32 gems worth of itemization over me, just from choosing gear wisely? I call shenanigans. I think you're just making up numbers to suit your argument at this point.

You do realize I've been logging out in ret gear for the past few days, right? Maybe that's where you're getting 30k from.

If you want more DPS, go for the str Valor cloakIf you want more avoidance go for the str Valor cloakIf you want more sta go for agi Rhyolith cloakIf you want full CTC and have to use the int cloak which amounts to 44 Mastery worth of CTC - something is wrong.

Whoops. I took parry into account, but I made a mistake at the end. Here was my napkin math. After gemming/reforging like I did in the comparison, the Int cape gives you:+123 mastery-260xparry rating (250 base, 186*0.27*1.05*1.05=55 from strength)-77 expertise (ignored)+100 hit (ignored)

Using the rule of thumb that mastery is ~3x as effective as avoidance at CTC at reasonable levels of DR. That would mean that the extra mastery is worth ~123*3=369 parry rating for CTC purposes, giving the cloak a lead of ~109 parry rating.

Which I then divided by 179 and multiplied by 2.25 to convert into CTC percent to get 1.37%. Except that parry rating is 1%, not 2.25%. Oops. Fix that error, and it drops to around 0.61% CTC difference, which is an over-estimate due to DR on both ends (it's likely to be a higher ratio than 3:1 now, but the DR will also drop the effective CTC by 30-40% since we don't get the full 1% dodge from it).

Obviously I should have down-converted the parry to mastery, instead; that gives me (260/3)=87 effective mastery, 123-87=36 mastery differential, 36/179*2.25=0.45% CTC difference, right in line with Rhidach's spreadsheet.

Moral of the story: don't do napkin math while you're distracted by lab work.

"Hold on, hold on, let me make sure I've got this straight. You're telling me that a critical part of our strategy for this fight will be to have the ret paladins go stand in the fire? Yeah, we can handle that." -- DSWarden