I am sure this will tick a lot of folks off. I have two DPMS rifles in .223/5.56. Both work fine with absolutely no problems what so ever. Shot beside a S&W M and P, POF and Bushmaster I see no difference. All hit in the same place on the target +/- .250. No FTF, FTE or other issues. At 100 yards a 1.5" group was easily maintainable with .223 Remington cheap ammo. [I don't need to shoot at distenances greater than 100 yards.] Perhaps the problem is that some people who did not spend a wad of money on a simple AR are thinking that hi-cost results in a better rifle.

Regards..
Diddle

July 12th, 2012, 08:00 PM

jonconsiglio

When you are using a rifle to defend life, small things become more important. An example of a couple means nothing. Put 15,000 rounds a year through the rifle and post back. In all likelyhoodit'll choke, like the 100's of others we've seen choke in high round count classes or when pushed hard.

I've said it many times... If you work in some other industry and shoot for fun, who cares who makes your rifle. At worst, a failure is an inconvenience. For some of us, a failure can be difference between winning a fight and seeing your family again or losing a fight and leaving our children Fatherless.

BIG difference.

In my roughly 750 rounds a week, I've broken one DPMS and two Bushmasters. Steered lugs in less than 1,000 rounds, gas block worked loose, RE was causing buffer hang up, etc. Never an issue with my LMT, BCM's, Colts, KAC's or Noveskes.

Add a suppressor of full auto and my Bushmasters would go nuts due to timing while the DPMS couldn't handle it without going to an H3 buffer, auto carrier and firing short bursts, otherwise it would fail. Only after extensive tweaking did they perform properly. Luckily, my $950 Colt 6920 never had that issue, nor did my $1,025 6720, nor did any of the others.

They are commercial grade rifles geared towards weekend shooters, plain and simple. If you don't NEED a quality rifle, buy whatever. Some of us do and others realize that for under a grand they can have a Colt, and that's good enough of a reason for many.

Your average shooter will not see a difference in their normal range day. If your normal range day involves very high rates of fire, fast drills, a lot of unconventional shooting positions, shooting in the rain, mud, freezing cold or dry desert with high winds, you'll be hard pressed to NOT see a difference.

Every gun is 100% reliable in the safe just like most guns are reliable at the local indoor range shooting at a slower pace. When we start asking Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Pat McNamara, Kyle Lamb and other guys that train to fight, not just shoot, they'll all tell you the extremely high faulted rate of DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic, etc... The funny thing is, very few show up with commercial grade rifles to this type of class, yet most failures are with those rifles, meaning the ratio of failures to rifles is very high. A very high percentage of those rifles will not see the third day of training, and most, if not all, of the guys mentioned above will attest to this.

July 12th, 2012, 08:47 PM

TinkMan308

Wow! Pretty intense conversation. Question. I am in the military and when we go fire our MilSpec rifles 4 out of 20 have issues. Is that on par with "high Quality" rifles.

July 12th, 2012, 09:21 PM

Sig35seven

Thanks for the info Jon!! All ears about this stuff.

Let me ask you one more question since you deal with this platform all the time... which do you like better....308 AR-10 or the AK47 in overall performance? Any insight welcome. Thanks!

July 12th, 2012, 09:25 PM

Sig35seven

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diddle

I am sure this will tick a lot of folks off. I have two DPMS rifles in .223/5.56. Both work fine with absolutely no problems what so ever. Shot beside a S&W M and P, POF and Bushmaster I see no difference. All hit in the same place on the target +/- .250. No FTF, FTE or other issues. At 100 yards a 1.5" group was easily maintainable with .223 Remington cheap ammo. [I don't need to shoot at distenances greater than 100 yards.] Perhaps the problem is that some people who did not spend a wad of money on a simple AR are thinking that hi-cost results in a better rifle.

Regards..
Diddle

No ones getting ticked off. Get what you can afford. I think everyone would agree, including Jon, that a DPMS AR-15 is better than no AR-15 at all.

July 12th, 2012, 11:56 PM

jonconsiglio

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinkMan308

Wow! Pretty intense conversation. Question. I am in the military and when we go fire our MilSpec rifles 4 out of 20 have issues. Is that on par with "high Quality" rifles.

Not intense at all, just conversation. Well, what's your MOS? If your unit got the rifles brand new and were maintained properly along with mags being replaced when it's time, then I'd say you have sme issues. If the rifles are dry, older and not maintained properly and a bunch of kids that know nothing about firearms but what they learned in basic, well, that's self explanatory.

Now, two of the 5th Group guys I work with (along with many others I know) said their M4's were running with extreme reliability as long as they were wet, which is not hard to do when you keep lube with you. Their rifles were well maintained and they were seasoned guys that knew how to keep them working and do preventative maintenance.

Using military as an example for weapons reliability is like using a police officer as an example of firearms proficiency. :D

Edit - what do you mean by failures for those 4 out of 20? Failure to extract? Failure to feed? Bolt over base? Double feed? Stuck case? Short stroke? Something like 90 to 95% of all AR malfunctions can be traced to the magazine or ammo. For military, most likely magazines. There are GI mags that should have been trashed years ago. Most guys don't have a clue how to check feed lips let alone how to do a quick fix in the field.

July 13th, 2012, 12:24 AM

MrBuckwheat

If you get the DPMS you can always swap out the upper with something better at a later date. At least you can get your feet wet with a rifle.

July 13th, 2012, 04:14 PM

Diddle

Intense? Naa. we all have differing opinions among firearms. I am one who tinkers around with ARs mostly as a fetish. I like trying different scopes, ammo, parts and pieces to see how they work and feel. DPMS gives me that option as does Bushmaster and several other brands. I really don't need a, POF, Rainier, Noveske or LWRC for what I do. I am on the range not the battlefield.

I will say though some folks do it and do it right regardless of their intentions. I have a friend who has close to six grand in a custom built POF. Damn fine rifle... Just too spendy for a simple guy like me who don't need that level of duty and performance. He has nice braging rights though.:aargh4:

July 13th, 2012, 04:18 PM

Diddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBuckwheat

If you get the DPMS you can always swap out the upper with something better at a later date. At least you can get your feet wet with a rifle.

Actually that is a very good point.
Also, knowing your rifle inside and out as well as its limitations and strong points counts for a lot on low(er) end ARs.

July 15th, 2012, 06:56 PM

TinkMan308

I am just a simple AF guy trying to figure out how to measure these comments so I have an idea of what should be expected out of a MilSpec rifle. Are these comments for the top 10% or the common foot soldier? With that aside, I guess what I am gleaning from your post is there is a difference between quality and reliability. The rifles we use in the military are quality rifles because they meet MilSpec but are poorly maintained.
On another note; comments like "a bunch of kids that know nothing about firearms" and "Using military as an example for weapons reliability is like using a police officer as an example of firearms proficiency. :D" Don’t add to the quality of the post and only degrade those that stand at the front lines defending our country. Those kids and that training make up the most powerful military in the world and ensure your rights as an American citizen.

July 28th, 2012, 04:55 PM

swelly61

I just purchased my first AR. Like most, I didn't want to spend more then $700... I looked online, checked Gander and my LGS. I wasn't really impressed with what I found. I ended up selling an extra AK 47 I had to so I could put a few more bucks into the AR. I'm glad I did. I ended up getting a Colt 6920 for $1050. Like with anything in life, "You get what you pay for". My advice is to take that $670 and put it away and save a little more to get what you want. Just my 2 cents

July 28th, 2012, 06:25 PM

Burns

Quote:

Originally Posted by swelly61

I just purchased my first AR. Like most, I didn't want to spend more then $700... I looked online, checked Gander and my LGS. I wasn't really impressed with what I found. I ended up selling an extra AK 47 I had to so I could put a few more bucks into the AR. I'm glad I did. I ended up getting a Colt 6920 for $1050. Like with anything in life, "You get what you pay for". My advice is to take that $670 and put it away and save a little more to get what you want. Just my 2 cents

I am just a simple AF guy trying to figure out how to measure these comments so I have an idea of what should be expected out of a MilSpec rifle. Are these comments for the top 10% or the common foot soldier? With that aside, I guess what I am gleaning from your post is there is a difference between quality and reliability. The rifles we use in the military are quality rifles because they meet MilSpec but are poorly maintained.
On another note; comments like "a bunch of kids that know nothing about firearms" and "Using military as an example for weapons reliability is like using a police officer as an example of firearms proficiency. :D" Don’t add to the quality of the post and only degrade those that stand at the front lines defending our country. Those kids and that training make up the most powerful military in the world and ensure your rights as an American citizen.

Well, I know some of those comments sound harsh and I apologize. I've just seen mil and LE used as an example, but the reality is, many are not gun guys and barely know they firearm they're issued.

If you want, I'd be more than happy to talk to you all you want about this stuff. PM me and I'll get back to you, hopefully explaining myself better. I'll call you or you can call me if you'd like.