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I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

I went to the Southport vs Park Tudor game (Go Cards!) and he was there watching his son play. His son is a 6'1 sophomore guard who plays both junior varsity and varsity basketball for Park Tudor.

Anyways when I got there I was told to look five feet down to my right, and sure enough the next person over was Isiah Thomas. I did get his autograph, and I did shake his hand and such. So that was pretty cool.

The whole entire Southport crowd it seemed then went and followed my lead and went over to meet Zeke. He was very cordial and didn't turn away anybody. He'd flash the golden smile of his and would shake everybody's hand.

That's not the best part about tonight.......Southport won 48-45 in OT. The Cards have now won five out of their past six ballgames heading into sectionals.

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

They still play sectionals? I thought these days they just handed out championship trophies to all the schools so that everybody 'felt equal'.

Afterall, is it fair for some schools not to be able to be a state champion just because some other school just happens to be better?

-Bball "Not a fan of multi-class basketball"

++++++++++

and I have been an advocate of this same treatment for the Colts and Pacers too! Is it right that we have to compete against the big market teams for a championship?? It definately affects my self-esttem to see us lose. I think the small market teams should be given an equal chance to win a trophy too. Or maybe even a gift certificate to Trophy World where everybody can just pick up a free plastic trophy that says "Champion" on it.

If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

Have to disagree with this one.

Went my first two years to Muncie Southside (many athletes to choose from) and last two years to Cowan (not enough students to play football). Seeing both perspectives, there was no reason for a school as small as Cowan to have to play the bigger schools in the sectional. Even if the bigger schools were poorly coached or had an inferior starting five, it was almost impossible for the smaller schools to deal with the number of athletes of the opposition. Everyone wants another Milan, but the fact is one has not been seen in 50 years.

I am for all of the championship winning teams playing an additional tournament. All four class winners squaring off would still show who was the best team. By keeping the class system, the small school would still have reason to be interested in the sectionals.

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

Props to Zeke for taking time out to be a good dad and for being considerate with the fans.

Had my son's team been playing, I would have had a hard time dealing with the interruptions.

Boo to bball for converting the thread into a class basketball rant. I liked the old system better, too. It was better theatre and easier to follow. But belittling today's fans and participants because they still care is bush league.

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

Seeing both perspectives, there was no reason for a school as small as Cowan to have to play the bigger schools in the sectional.

Do you realize what our state tournament used to be, compared to what it has become?

I recently saw statistics on both revenues and attendance on an Indy news station and the differences compared to 1990 were staggering. My stats are wrong, because in all honesty I don't remember them, but it was something like one of attendance or revenues was down 60%, whereas the other was down 25%. It was ridiculous.

Now, I'll admit I'm an old-timer. And I'll even claim that the attendance for the later years of one-class basketball was nothing like the sell-out attendance of the 50's, 60's and early 70's, but come on.

There is a significant difference in the revenues being taken in. And those revenues, what are they used for? Just the unimportant things like financially supporting the sports programs and scholarship programs of all schools under the umbrella of the IHSAA.

In other words, even if you have kid that doesn't even play a sport, your kid might benefit by Southport being able to sell out it's 7200 seats in its sectional / regional / semistate or whatever. Your kid might get a sholarship that would be financed by Southport's ability to sell-out it's fieldhouse, or at least it's ability to draw more fans.

There were a lot of reasons to have one-class basketball, probably the least of which was just to produce a true champion for the state of Indiana.

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

I miss the old single class system myself. I'm only 19 but I basically grew up in a gym when I was younger.

I remember in 1997 when my cousin lead Mooresville to a sectional title under the single class tourney. We went to regionals in the morning at Terre Haute and Dugger high school, lead by Brody Boyd, defeatd Mooresville. In the evening Dugger almost defeated Bloomington North, who later went on to win the state championship.

Since Mooresville lost in the morning I went to the Columbus North Regional to watch Franklin take on Columbus North. I remember Franklin's Mark Pitcher hitting a jumper as time expired to lead Franklin to a two point victory.

Next week I went to semi-state at Hinkle Fieldhouse to watch Franklin take on #1 New Castle. New Castle that year had all those players who were Butler senior last year, including Miller and Archey. Franklin behind huge games from Michael Whitted, and Joe Hougland upset #1 New Castle.

So on that day, we had a future 1A school defeat a future 4A school. And at semi-state a 3A school (now 4A) defeated a 4A school.

I just really disagree with how the IHSAA views things. This quote that I got off HickoryHusker, Indiana's best high school message board, really disturbs me:

"If you're a small school, you're fortunate if you have a close game with a large school. Can they compete with the next one and next one and next. I never think they can. Why continue to go on and on if you know you're no good and you know your not going anywhere"

Our lovely IHSAA commish, Blake Ress, said that during the Muncie Central/Milan 50th Anniversary game. It's really distrubing that he's basically saying since you're a small school you have no chance anyways, so let's not even play the games. I honestly don't know how he could show his face at the 1A and 2A state finals games now after saying that.

I know Waldron's coach this year has been quoted as saying he'd love to be able to take the floor against Pike or Lawrence North just to see how his team would match up. They'd be on the floor seeing who really is the best, and you know the Waldron kids would give it their all.

I'm also sure they'd rather face Shelbyville to stick it to them in sectionals, but now they don't get that chance anymore.

Here's another post off HickoryHusker that I agree with:

A counterpoint to Tim Clelandís ďClasses not the ruin of Hoosier HysteriaĒ column from last week.

Quote:

It's easy to conclude that multi-class basketball killed the Indiana high school tournament. But it's simply not true.

Yes it is easy to conclude, and I will prove it by comparing tournament attendance during the 1950-1997 time period with the 1998-2003 multi-class era, and back it up with facts, not generalizations.

Quote:

Multi-class basketball didn't kill Hoosier Hysteria. Here's what did:

1. MORE SPORTS

With sons and daughters competing in a variety of sports, parents and grandparents spent their dollars on admission tickets to volleyball games, girls' basketball games, gymnastics meets and baseball games - not just boys' basketball games.

Now I couldíve sworn we were talking about attendance during the boy basketball tournament, but apparently there are parents who wonít attend the their son's basketball sectional because their daughter played volleyball five months prior. I understand the conflict with girls basketball, but thought that this is the reason a conscious effort is made to not have them playing at the same time.

Quote:

2. SCHOOL CONSOLIDATIONS

The consolidations impacted attendance in more than one way. Not only are there fewer tournament games played overall, there are not as many intense rivalries. Some of the rivals of the past now share the same school building and are teammates.

I totally agree with this and contend it is the main, and probably the only reason for the 40% attendance decrease from 1950 to 1997. Iím glad he mentioned the fact that there are fewer tournament games played, because I think this is a key point as attendance per game was greater in 1997 than it was in 1950:

I know this isnít a perfect indicator since tourney attendance is based on sessions, not games, but it must be pointed out that there were 64 fewer sessions in 1997 compared to 1950:

If there had been as many sessions played in 1997 as 1950, the attendance would have increased by 236,160 (64 times 3,690) bringing the total to 1,022,184. This still leaves 1950 with about a 275,000 edge, which can easily be accounted for when you consider there were over 50% more teams (players, cheerleaders, parents, siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.) in 1950.

The number of schools cannot be blamed for the attendance problems of the last six years however. There were more teams in the 2003 tourney than in 1997 who played one fewer game. Televisions, VCRs, shopping malls, computers, cars, tennis, girls sports, etc. all existed to distract us in 1997 just like they did in 2003. So how do we explain a 49% decrease? Could it be that something changed in 1998?

Quote:

3. TELEVISION

Now, with cable packages and satellite options, fans can watch live basketball all evening every evening. This availability coincides with the tremendous increase in the fan appeal of professional and college sports.

Where did the high school basketball fans disappear to during the last 40 years? The first place I would look is the sofa next to the TV.

So if the increased availability of NBA and college games on TV has caused high school basketball fans to stay at home on the sofa, why hasnít attendance at NBA and college games decreased by 49% over the last six years? It would help me see his point if all high school games were televised and I could watch my local team from my sofa, like I can college and pro. I would also estimate that the popularity of the NBA has decreased since 1997 and the end of the Chicago Bulls dynasty.

Quote:

4. OTHER REASONS

The fitness boom of the 1970s gave many adults the impetus to become athletic participants (road races, tennis, racquetball, weight-room workouts, cycling) instead of spectators.

Didnít he just tell us we were on the sofa watching games on TV? I canít keep up with these cultural trends. It was always tough in the 1970s on Friday and Saturday nights in March to decide between going to the sectional or running a marathon, or perhaps going for a bike ride.

Quote:

Most certainly VCRs, DVD players, computers and video-game systems now keep many potential basketball fans entertained at home instead of in the gymnasiums.

Way back when I was in school we went (in cars that we apparently didnít have in those days) to movie theaters, played Atari, and had a TRS-80 computerÖ but I never really considered these a better option than going to the sectional. Since nearly every home had a VCR in 1997, does the increased quality of DVDs explain why 386,000 people now choose to stay home?

Quote:

There are many more examples of schools such as the one I attended (tiny Hauser High School) that never won a single sectional title.

Poor little Hauser probably wouldnít have won many class sectionals either considering their winning percentage was .430 from 1958-1997. This includes a ten year stretch from 1986-1995 with records of: 3-18, 3-18, 4-17, 3-19, 5-16, 7-14, 8-13, 5-16, 3-17, and 8-13. Unless they were playing all huge schools in the regular season, I donít think it would have mattered all that much whether they were playing Columbus North or Medora in the sectional. Hauser had only lost one game prior to the 1981 sectional, does that mean it wasnít fair for them to not win the sectional? Tell it to current Class A Covington, who entered the sectional undefeated in 1978, only to lose to a school smaller than them (Seeger).

Quote:

Columbus North won 49 sectionals, 20 regionals, and two semistate titles in single-class, zero sectionals in multi-class.

Columbusí first semistate champion was the regular season undefeated 1964 team (can't believe 6-15 Hauser didn't knock them out of the tournament). The only Columbus North semistate champ team was in 1975, who went on to lose to some tiny little school in the final fourÖ. I think maybe NormanDale knows who it was.

Quote:

Vincennes Lincoln won 67 sectional titles, 10 regionals, four semistates and two state championships in single-class basketball and has yet to win even a sectional in multi-class. Richmond won 56 sectionals, 13 regionals, four semistates and one state crown in single-class, zero sectionals in multi-class.

4A Bloomington North won the last single class championship in 1997, but this also was the first sectional they had won in 6 years (.166 winning percentage). Since class basketball, they have won 4 sectionals in 6 years (.666). 4A Pike won 5 sectionals and one regional in 87 years of single class (.057), and has won 5 sectionals (.833), 4 regionals, 4 semistates, and 2 state crowns in multi-class. 4A Columbia City was 0 for their last 19 in single class sectionals, and they've won 2 of 6 multi-class.

On the other hand, Class A White River Valley won 4 out of 7 single class sectionals it played in (.571), and has won 1 out of 6 multi-class (.166).

Quote:

Hoosier Hysteria will never be the same as it was 50 years ago.
But don't blame multi-class basketball.

I know it will never be like it was in 1954, (as the narrator said on national television Saturday night: ďIndiana saw to thatĒ), but youíre going to have come up with better reasons than girls gymnastics, DVDs, and watching NBA basketball before I will blame anything but multi-class basketball for the demise of Hoosier Hysteria.

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

Boo to bball for converting the thread into a class basketball rant. I liked the old system better, too. It was better theatre and easier to follow. But belittling today's fans and participants because they still care is bush league.

I'm not belittling today's fans or participants.... the IHSAA is.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

You guys are discussing these high school players as if they were professional athletes making millions of dollars (i.e. the Colts and Pacers small-market analogies).

They're 15-18 year-old KIDS for chrissakes. Let them have fun and play the damn game. They'll have plenty of time to be exploited for ticket sales when they get older.

Actually, there's another angle to this besides the fact that the new system is not working financially. It has to do with nobody telling anyone what they're not able to do. Everyone having the same opportunity. Not creating more trophies to make more winners. Maybe the players that want to win a championship need to work harder... whether at a small school or large school? And maybe the work and dedication (and teamwork) to a common goal are more important in the long run than the trophy the eventual winner carries away?

...But what do I know? If 4 champions are good... why not more? Afterall, think of all the losers of the opening sectional games. Is it fair to them to no longer have a shot a championship because they happened to lose their first game? How about adding a 4 more trophies and letting the first round 'victory challenged' teams square off in another tournament still divided by the 4 classes? Then we could have 8 champions and if 4 are good then 8 must certainly be better.

Just adding this bracket for victory challenged teams would double the number of teams getting at least 1 victory in the tournament and that has to feel good. That is at least one more game for these teams' fans too. And with fewer teams in this tournament the path to a championship will be shorter... and thus less victory challenged teams by the end. This whole concept is making me feel really good. It isn't as good as everybody winning but it is a good compromise...for a start. In a perfect world everybody would win.

I wonder if we should consider removing coaches from the sidelines? They tend to be focused on victory and this has to be sending the wrong message to the kids. Too much emphassis on winning can't be good for the kids' feelings. Somebody will end up victory challenged at the end and they will feel sad and overmatched. Ultimately, doing away with the scoreboard entirely is a noble goal.

Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

I come from Lutheran High School, which has roughly 260 students total, class of 1998, so I can tell you a couple things about class basketball in a tiny school. And keep in mind that this tiny school has a good set-up for a modern run towards a cinderella story. We're in Indianapolis, so we've got access to all the modern training facilities and coaching. We actively recruit kids who come from the 5 area Lutheran grade schools to attend Lutheran High School, so in essence we keep all our talent from kindergarden all the way to graduation.

However!

It simply doesn't matter. In single class basketball, a school our size, even with solid fundamentals, will get crushed by schools who have 10 times the talent pool to draw from. You simply can't beat a bigger, more athletic team that is almost as good fundamentally. Back in the 60's, a huge school had a thousand kids in it. It would be much easier for a school with 200 to beat them, if you also considered that those kids in that small rural school had absolutely nothing better to do than play basketball, most likely with/against their future teammates. They were constantly getting better. Now, they've got AOL, so it's just as easy for them to play a PS2 or surf the web when they get home. Milan today simply wouldn't get to pick and choose from any young man in their school, and get a virtual garauntee that that kid is playing basketball in the back yard 6 hours per day. Now that kid might be watching MTV, or sitting in a Yahoo! Chatroom, or playing Halo with the 6'5" guy that the team would have needed to win a championship. It's just not what it used to be.

So, they make it multi-class, which I don't agree with either. Wow, now you have 4 winners instead of win. So it's all better now that 374 schools loose instead of 377? My junior year we almost won sectionals, but we lost to Shelbyville, who crushed us, because their front line was an average of 6" taller than ours, and they were just as skilled. But does it really matter? Imagine that Shelbyville had been replaced by Sheridan, and we managed to win. We hang a 1a sectional banner, and probably get creamed in regionals. Nobody's going to talk about the year we beat Sheridan to win sectionals, or at least, they won't be 8 years from the day we won. It'll just be another dusty banner that nobody remembers.

Both systems suck, at least with single class ball it's got a mystique, even if that mystique is never fulfilled or realized. Every small school realizes they have almost no chance to win state. All you do by multi-classing is make the biggest fish in their respective ponds the favorites, and the bottom half of those respective ponds still feel like they have no chance to win state. :

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

Have to disagree with this one.

Went my first two years to Muncie Southside (many athletes to choose from) and last two years to Cowan (not enough students to play football). Seeing both perspectives, there was no reason for a school as small as Cowan to have to play the bigger schools in the sectional. Even if the bigger schools were poorly coached or had an inferior starting five, it was almost impossible for the smaller schools to deal with the number of athletes of the opposition. Everyone wants another Milan, but the fact is one has not been seen in 50 years.

I am for all of the championship winning teams playing an additional tournament. All four class winners squaring off would still show who was the best team. By keeping the class system, the small school would still have reason to be interested in the sectionals.

Well I don't agree with this one. There may not have been a school as small as Milan, going all the way, but there have been upsets of the larger schools during the sectionals, reginals and semi-state. For a lot of these schools, winning their sectional is a big thing. Getting a chance to take on the big boys is what it's all about. This attitude about not having a chance against the larger and more athletic teams is for losers.

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

I hate the system as it is because one of the casualties of it was the value of the Sectional championship. Back in the day, I attended Beech Grove High School. I was a freshman when we won our first ever Southport Sectional. It was as exciting as anything that ever happened to the school. We went on to the Hinkle Regional and beat the Howe - the #1 team in the state. To accomplish winning the Southport Sectional, which was huge, and follow it up by beating Howe did more for Beech Grove than you could have ever imagine. We beat the #1 team in the state - we were the giant killers! We didn't give a damn about the State.

I grieve every time I see the attendance at the Sectionals now. Back then, the Southport Sectional was an EVENT!

The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

I made the analogy about the Colts to show how moronic the thinking is. Small schools...small media market...eh nevermind.

My HS had <200 after we consolidated. Four years prior to that mys sis had 11 in her graduating class. Eight years before me we lost to Crispus Attacks (yes that Attacks group) in the final game of the Regionals. A sectional win is (was) as important as any Championship back then. Advancing as far as you could was what brought pride...it didn't have to be the ultimate championship. There was pride in advancing as far as any team before you had. But the "feel gooders" seem to think that unless you stand on the podium you haven't done anything. What they fail to realize is that instead of being able to say WOW WE MADE TO THE SECTIONAL FINALS most schools now have to realize they can't even make it out of a 1A or 2A division sectional. Instead of winners they created small class LOSERS. I'm not explaining that very well sorry.

If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

Re: I Met Isiah Thomas Tonight

I made the analogy about the Colts to show how moronic the thinking is. Small schools...small media market...eh nevermind.

My HS had <200 after we consolidated. Four years prior to that mys sis had 11 in her graduating class. Eight years before me we lost to Crispus Attacks (yes that Attacks group) in the final game of the Regionals. A sectional win is (was) as important as any Championship back then. Advancing as far as you could was what brought pride...it didn't have to be the ultimate championship. There was pride in advancing as far as any team before you had. But the "feel gooders" seem to think that unless you stand on the podium you haven't done anything. What they fail to realize is that instead of being able to say WOW WE MADE TO THE SECTIONAL FINALS most schools now have to realize they can't even make it out of a 1A or 2A division sectional. Instead of winners they created small class LOSERS. I'm not explaining that very well sorry.

You are explaining it very well! Great thought on the subject.

BTW- If there has ever been a perfect example of why this phrase exists:
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" It is the situation with the Indiana State HS basketball tournament.

-Bball

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."