1st of all one thing needs to be made clear;1. The Word of God stands supreme.2. This is followed by the actual practices of the Holy Prophet of Islam [sa]. This is known as sunnah. 3. This is followed by hadith, the words reported to be those of the Holy Prophet[sa]

If the authenticity of the words of the Holy Prophet[sa] is established unquestionably, the words concerned are words put into the mouth of the Holy Prophetssa by God Almighty. Where there is no apparent contradiction between the word of the Holy Prophet[sa] and the Quran, the tradition may be accepted as authentic.

Whenever any so-called tradition attributed to the Holy Prophet of Islam[sa] contradicts any clear injunction of the Holy Quran, such a tradition is rejected as false and is not accepted as the word of the Holy Prophet[sa].

Another reliable method of investigating the credibility of a tradition is to study its internal evidence critically. If the contents of the tradition clash with the image of the Holy Prophet of Islam which has emerged from a study of his conduct and bearing throughout his life, then such a tradition would be rejected as a false attribution to the Holy Prophet[sa] or as being against the principles of logic and common sense.

It is not possible for a fair-minded person to reconcile the following verses of the Holy Quran with this tradition:

2.57, 100, 109, 218, 257, 273

3.21, 73, 86–92, 145

4.83, 138, 139, 146

5.55, 62, 91–3, 99–100

6.67, 105–8, 126

7.124–9

9.11–14

10.100–9

13.41

15.10

16.83, 105–7, 126

17.55

18.30

19.47

20.72–4

22.40

24.55

25.42–4

26.117

28.57

29.19

39.30–42

40.26, 27

42.7, 8, 48, 49

47.26

50.46

51.57

64.9–13

66.7

88.22–3

Holy Quran says

Whoso seeks a religion
other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to
come he shall be among the losers. How shall Allah guide a people who
have disbelieved after having believed and who had borne witness that
the Messenger is true and to him clear proofs had come? Allah guides
not the wrongdoers. Of such the punishment is that on them shall be the
curse of Allah and of angels and of men, all together, the reunder
shall they abide. Their punishment shall not be lightened nor shall
they be granted respite; except in the case of those who repent
thereafter and amend. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Ever Merciful.
Those who disbelieve after having believed, and then continue to
advance in disbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted. Those are
they who have gone utterly astray. From anyone of those who have
disbelieved, and die while they are disbelievers, there shall not be
accepted even an earth full of gold, though he offer it in ransom. For
those there shall be a grievous punishment, and they shall have no
helper. (3.86–92)

It
is obvious from these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by
one man on another for apostasy. The words ‘thereunder shall they
abide’ clearly refer to the life hereafter. By no stretch of
imagination can any sane person interpret the words ‘curse of Allah’ to
be a license to murder anyone whom he considers to be an apostate. No
capital punishment is mentioned. If it had, according to the strict
requirements of the law, the punishment would have been clearly
defined, as in the case of all other hodud
(punishments specifically prescribed in the Holy Quran). On the
contrary, the Holy Quran mentions the possibility of repentance by such
persons and subsequent forgiveness by God.How can anyone repent and
atone for his sins in this world if he has been killed?

Holy Quran says

If
thy Lord had enforced His Will, surely all those on the earth would
have believed without exception. Will thou than take it upon thyself to
force people to become believers? Except by Allah’s leave no one can
believe and He will afflict with His wrath those who will not use their
understanding. (10.100–1)

When
God Himself does not force people to believe, who are we to raise the
sword to force belief.

O
ye who believe, whoso from among you turns back from his religion let
him remember that in place of such a person, Allah will soon bring a
people whom He will love and who will love Him, who will be kind and
considerate towards the believers and firm and unyielding towards the
disbelievers. They will strive hard in the cause of Allah and will not
at all take to heart the reproaches of fault finders. That is Allah’s
grace; He bestows it upon whosoever He pleases. Allah is the Lord of
vast bounty, All-Knowing. (5.55)

Whoso
disbelieves in Allah after he has believed, excepting the case of one
who is forced to make a declaration of disbelief while his heart rests
securely in faith, but one who opens his mind wide to disbelief; on him
is Allah’s wrath and he shall have a grievous punishment. (16.107)

Those
who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and
thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive
them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance. (4.138)

Muhammad
is but a Messenger; of a surety, all Messengers before him have passed
away. If then, he dies or be slain, will you turn back on your heels?
He who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah a whit. Allah will
certainly reward the grateful. (3.145)

No
corporal punishment can be understood to have been mentioned by any
stretch of imagination in the foregoing passages from the Holy Quran.

''Whoso seeks a religion
other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to
come he shall be among the losers. How shall Allah guide a people who
have disbelieved after having believed andwho had borne witness that
the Messenger is true and to him clear proofs had come?Allah guides
not the wrongdoers. Of such the punishment is that on them shall be the
curse of Allah and of angels and of men, all together, the reunder
shall they abide. Their punishment shall not be lightened nor shall
they be granted respite; except in the case of those who repent
thereafter and amend. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Ever Merciful.
Those who disbelieve after having believed, and then continue to
advance in disbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted. Those are
they who have gone utterly astray. From anyone of those who have
disbelieved, and die while they are disbelievers, there shall not be
accepted even an earth full of gold, though he offer it in ransom. For
those there shall be a grievous punishment, and they shall have no
helper.'' (3.86–92)

even if we were to assume that the punishment of apostate is death from the above verse (eventhough it isnt so) but above verse clearly says that the believer knew in his heart that the messenger is true but still intentionally turned a disbeliever despite knowing the truth, so such is punishable to death, so the question that comes to mind then is how the humans will find out whats in the heart of the apostate. how they will know about his ill intentions that he knew the truth. Its Only Allah who knows the best whats in others heart, what their intentions are.

as Allah says in QuarnCall unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation. and
reason with them on the basis of that which is best. Thy Lord knows
best those who have strayed away from His way; and He knows best those
who are rightly guided.(16.126)

So its only in Gods hand to punish, no human can take this in their own hands or their will only be murder of the innocent.

Ikramah relates that he heard that some Zindeeqs were presented before
Hazrat Ali whereupon he directed the burning alive of these people. Ibn
Abbas stated that had it been him, he would not have ordered this
because the Holy Prophetsa had said that the torment of the fire may only be decreed by God but the Prophetsa had also said, ‘Slay whosoever changes his religion

The contents of the above Hadith are erroneous in several ways.

A person
of Hazrat Ali’s
stature is presumed to be unaware of the fact that Islam categorically prohibits
a person to be punished by fire.

The words ‘slay whosoever changes his faith’ are
so general that they can be interpreted in many ways. They can apply to men,
women and children, whereas according to Imam Abu Hanifa and some other schools
of jurisprudence, an apostate woman can never be slain.

The Arabic
word deen (religion) used in this tradition is a general word meaning any
religion, not Islam
specifically. Even the faith of idolaters is referred to as deen.
(Sura Al-Kafiroon)

In the light of the general nature of the language used, how can one
restrict the application of this tradition to a Muslim who renounces
his faith? In strict legal terms, according to this tradition anyone
who changes his religion, whatever that religion is, would have to be
put to death. It would mean slaying the Jew who became a Christian,
slaying the Christian who became a Muslim.

another point that can be raised is that THE hadith states the narrator was Ikramah, so it also raises a question about the truthfulness/authenticity of the narrator. what he(Ikramah) says are neither the words of God nor the prophet.what he says doesnt necessarily means that this is what actually happened or this is what actually was said. and quranic verses, logic, common sense surely do go against it.

You have shown long lines from Bukhari V9 book 84. There was mostly unrelated matter in those Hadith. We do not need any Hadith about any apostates. Unless they murdered some one and ran away, there is no punishment for them.

Also please know that an atheist is different to an apostate. There is no burden, no danger to any peaceful person for not believing.

Whenever any so-called tradition attributed to the Holy Prophet of Islam[sa] contradicts any clear injunction of the Holy Quran, such a tradition is rejected as false and is not accepted as the word of the Holy Prophet[sa].

I don't see anything in the Quran that directly contradicts the hadith I quoted (silence is not contradiction); but if the consensus is that it is not authentic, I'll take your word for it.

I wonder, though, if there is any other (external) reason to believe that the hadith is not authentic, aside from the alleged contradiction. If the hadith was recorded by otherwise reliable sources and transmitted via reputable scholars, doesn't that call into question the reliability and authority of all hadith?

Originally posted by minuteman

Ron Webb, you being an atheist, would not know much about any religion.

That is ironic, since it was my study of various religions that made me an atheist.

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