Commentary on popular culture and society, from a (mostly) psychological perspective

Sunday, November 26, 2006

"They Disrespected Our House"

Is that really any reason to stab a sixth grade girl to death? Apparently, it was reason enough for this female murderer in Chicago:

A police source said Jones claimed she stabbed Laura and her older sister, Mattie Bryant, because "they disrespected our house." Brooke Wright, 20, the older sister of both Laura and Bryant, said the woman who stabbed Laura had come to their block looking for a fight at about 9 p.m. Thursday.

When the woman she wanted to fight refused, she picked a fight with Bryant, Wright said. Laura got in the middle of it, and was stabbed in the chest and neck.

I thought women only killed in self defense, at least this is what so many "feminists" tell us. I wonder how they explain a woman on girl murder like this?

havent you noticed all the worst serial killers and rapists, were such nice people. its selective amnesia, they were nice, we didnt see anything because they were nice onest guv.. when i am sure a lot of them had a sense of something wrong.. but because they didnt do anything.. its suddenyl forgotten

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anonymous 3:23 - Comment spam certainly is annoying. How did three in a row get past the security measure? They also detract from the discussion at hand which, I think, is primarily about the societal tendency to respond with sympathy toward females who kill their own children.

Actually, I've forgotten the main story in the original post; guess I'll go back and re-read it.

This will play out the way that everyone is predicting....unless the girls' mother makes a big enough noise. The "grieving mother" shtick usually trumps everything. Of course, a grieving father might just be told to suck it up and be quiet, and that's just more of the same.

"Woman" is stretching it...at 18 the murderer is just barely an adult. She's violent with poor impulse control, and probably very, very stupid.

I don't think its particularly helpful to anyone to knee-jerk about whether she will or won't be excused for trolling for a fight and killing a 12-year old girl.

I don't think that she's typical of most young women her age and her unusual aggresiveness is not widely shared among other young women her age, and the fact that this kind of violence is more common among young males isn't a conspiracy against men. I don't think anyone believes its impossible for a young woman to act out violently aggainst others, just that its not typical and is less common than among young men.

The difference is that women are believed to kill for self defense, not for revenge etc. by many "feminists" and others. This view colors juries as woman are typically given more lenient sentences for murder or are more readily excused then men for similar crimes. This is why it is important to focus on crimes like these, to show that women-- okay, "girls" if this term makes you feel better--are capable of malicious intent and should be held as accountable as a man who committs a similar crime. Who said anything about a conspiracy against men?

Does anyone really think that all men are potential rapists? Ok, does anyone outside of Womyn's Studies departments think that?Does anyone outside of Womyn's Studies departments even listen to feminists anymore?

I think it's not a matter of people "listening to" feminists anymore. The fact is, feminist ideas are now embedded in our culture. Some of those ideas - like the basic one of women's equality - are great and we couldn't imagine our society without them. Some of them - like the "potential rapist" and "consensual sex is rape" ones - are incredibly destructive, not to mention just plain stupid and wrong. Nevertheless, we all have to deal with them.

I think that only the most reactionary radical feminist would immediately label the suspect in this case a "victim of patriarchy" acting violently due to her powerlessness or whatever. So probably best not to jump to that kind of conclusion about feminists in general or this person's specific case.

Previous commenters are probably more accurate when they describe her "victimology" in terms of violent, chaotic environment, broken family, psychological problems, etc. Could be substance abuse involved - hers, the parents' or both. There's no one thing you can point to that led to this killing. And why her and not one of her sisters or friends?

It is, as always, a mystery. Stuff like this is one reason we have religions...

This killing is just another sad legacy of the Southern honor culture which put a premium upon 'respect' and upon violent protection of honor; infecting both men and women with a curious inferiority complex.

I grew up in the South, from the Appalachians to the coast, living in and around neighborhoods that ranged from poor (subsidized housing) to upper middle class, and interacting with both adults and children of all classes. The only time I saw the "Southern honor culture" when I was young was when I watched Gone With the Wind.

The second-hand "self" esteem, the intentional diminution of which is regarded as an attack, did not become prevalent in my part of the South until the 80s (children of parents who reached adulthood in the mid- to late-60s).

The "southern honor culture" idea is interesting, but not necessarily valid in this case. The statement "she disrespected our house" sounds more like gansta-speak to me, but if you're correct it might just be southern honor speaking in modern terms.

I think there are too many unknown variables to judge - race, social and economic class, place of origin, etc. Just because something happens in the south doesn't mean it happens because of "southern" culture.

I would suggest that the "honor culture" is all but extinct except in very small towns and poor, rural areas. Modern travel, communications, and a massive influx of Northerners since the 70s have pretty much obscured all traces of anything uniquely "southern" in the south.

Of course, I live in Northern Virginia, which has been mostly inhabited by Yankees since 1861. So any "deep south" southerners, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

"Yeah, 'cause we all know people in the north don't kill other people for simply being dissed. "

Please....people who eat grits and greens and ribs may live in the north, or in California, but they are still southerners. When someone mutilates his daughter's genitals in Atlanta, that hardly means that Southerners practice FGM. Distinguish between geography and culture.

I'm not familiar with feminist writing on "women killing in self-defense" but it does occur to me that as autonomy decreases (such as with women as 'property' or before voting rights) there might be an increase in "actual" self defense. As autonomy increases, the murders fall within the same range of reasons as men.

So, I suppose, that's how it might fit in with feminist doctrine and the “patriarchal” society. But I'm just guessing.

However, many of the articles I've sinceve read about the referenced crime do put the attact at least arguably on the "self defense" track. The murderer was trying to stop a series of attacks against her and a younger sister by a group of young women that included the victims.

Instead of calling the law, she called them out and stabbed women she decided were tormenting her and her family.

However that kind of retaliation seems at least as typical as that among bullied males or males protecting weaker family members.

It wasn't a tangent, it's a discussion. From the new information I have read, the fight was over a boy and the woman who killed the sixth grader went to the victims, not the other way around, but I could be wrong:

"Police say a verbal altercation led to the stabbing (near Claremont Avenue and West 74th Street). When officers responded, they found Joslin stabbed in the neck and her sister stabbed in the arm.

The girl was pronounced dead at Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn. Laura's family said the incident began when two females, including Jones, tried to pick a fight about a boy."

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_330161339.html

In my experience, girls who kill often do so in fights over boys or relationship issues.

The difference is that women are believed to kill for self defense, not for revenge etc. by many "feminists" and others.

That's a strawman. Why don't you cite some sources? I've never heard that argued by feminists of any credibility, say sociologists who study crime, for instance. You're taking the situation that a number of women convicted of murder killed an abuser, and extrapolating it to some feminist myth that just doesn't exist. There's no movement afoot in feminism to romanticize violence among women.

The work of Lenore Walker and the battered women's syndrome has led to many cases of women being given more lenient sentences and/or found not guilty in cases where they have killed in cold blood. Why? Because women must have a good reason for killing. 12 states provide for battered women's syndrome testimony by statutory law.

The viewpoint that women only kill in self defense and not for other reasons is prevalent in our society. For example, many women's advocates think that women in jail for murder are innocent and should not be shown as perpretrators of murder but rather as victims who are defending themselves:

Advocates for battered women would like Oxygen to cancel a true-crime series about women who kill their men. They call "Snapped" offensive and say it hurts the cause of women behind bars, most of whom are imprisoned for defending themselves.

You can read more here:

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2057

Or try reading "When She was Bad" by Patricia Pearson who discusses the feminist theory of "standpoint epistemology," a research framework that holds that history must be told from the standpoint of the woman/vicitm. This viewpoint of the woman as victim and man as oppressor is so prevalent in today's culture that to say that it does not exist is to deny reality.

"Please....people who eat grits and greens and ribs may live in the north, or in California, but they are still southerners."

No, it means they like grits, greens and ribs, all foods enjoyed by the black communities (who introduced me to the first two in K.C.) Southern and Northern. Ribs, incidentally, have been unbiquitous across U.S. cultures for some time, not just Southern.

what garbage,what feminist claimed women ONLY kill for self defense. Is this part of the secret Femi-Nazi canon? This is the kind of dishonest cheapshot and shoddy logic crack that only a stupid right hack would try to palm off on fellow grunters ala Limbo. Crap like this gets posted to elicit the usual stupid right wing kneejerk posts from the usual stupid right wing ditto-heads!

It's a simple thing to hit google and find numerous articles, research papers, and law documents that refer to and actively seek to refute the widely held idea that women kill primarily in self-defense. It would be unecessary for there to be so many such things if this were NOT an idea pervasively held by our culture. However, you wanted actual quotes.

Let's start with the most notable and most clearly stated:

"Though women **mainly become violent in self-defense or in defense of their children**, the power of romantic obsession is so great - and women are so much more subject to it - that even 'feminine' nonviolent conditioning can be overcome." Steinem.

Now for some that require a little logical conclusion:

"Man's discovery that his genitalia could serve as a weapon to generate fear must rank as one of the most important discoveries of prehistoric times, along with the use of fire and the first crude stone axe. From prehistoric times to the present, I believe, rape has played a critical function...it is nothing more or less than a conscious process of *intimidation* by which _all_ men keep _all_ women in a state of fear." _Against Our Will_, Brownmiller.

An abusive relationship is "a pattern of behavior used by one person to maintain power and control over another. Physical battering is not the only form of abuse. Emotional and sexual abuse, including insults, *intimidation*, threats and forced sex are also part of an abusive relationship." rileycenter.org.

"Domestic violence includes acts and threats of violence against an intimate partner, and also 'any other crime against a person or against property when used as a method of coercion, control, punishment, *intimidation* or revenge directed against a person with whom the actor is or has been involved in an intimate relationship.'" Boulder Bar Association glossary.

The mere existence of the act of rape is utilized by ALL men to intimidate ALL women. Intimidation is an attribute of domestic violence. Domestic violence has been shown in case after case to be an affirmative defense for murder. Therefore, ALL women may excuse murder by claiming to be victims of domestic violence.--"The American dating system, which constitutes a primary source of heterosexual contacts, legitimizes the consensual 'purchase' of women as sexual objects and obliterates the crucial distinction between consent and nonconsent." _The Female Fear_, Gordon and Riger.

"All nonconsenting sex is assault." _Men Who Rape_, Groth.

If the very act of dating is intrinsically non-consensual for a woman, then any intimacy during, after, or as a consequence of that date (up to and including marriage, perhaps?) must be considered non-consensual, i.e., assault at best. Assault permits self-defense.--"In dramatizing the pervasiveness of rape, radical feminists have told young women that before they have sex with a man, they must give consent as explicit as a legal contract's. In this way, young women have been convinced that they have been the victims of rape." SEX, ART, AND AMERICAN CULTURE. Paglia.

Analysis of actions of "radical feminists" by another notable feminist describing in what way the actions and statements of the former group have legitimized the claim of rape in nearly all sexual contact. Rape permits self-defense.--Technical Report for "An Empirical Examination of a Theory of Women's Use of Violence in Intimate Relationship" (Swan, Snow, Sullivan, Gambone, Fields) includes as subcategories of "Self-Defense":"because you were fed up with his behavior""because he was being mean to you""to get him to leave you alone"

If you annoy a woman and she kills you, self-defense is a legitimate claim.--You can do your own googling from there. Yes, I know, it's not as much fun as public seething, but do your best.

Helen, thanks for the reply. I've read "When She was Bad," and understand your point about the victim standpoint. But your post here is about a woman killing a neighbor, a girl. The argument that women kill in self-defense is centered around very specific female acts of homicide, i.e., killing their male partners. Those arguments aren't made about acts like the one you describe here, where women assault or kill over perceived insults, or in the process of committing other crimes, and so forth. I think you make a bad analogy in trying to tie those two areas together, and in doing so, take a rather strained dig at feminists.

Saltedslug, your list of quotes about rape says nothing about murder. Your point is incoherant.

Elizabeth, the quotes on rape, abuse, etc., their overwhelmingly broad scope, the spurious use of the term, "self-defense", and the logical consequences therefrom were intended to address the statement of the person I addressed at the top of the response. Specifically, the assertion that no feminist statements explicitly or implicitly legitimize a claim of self-defense in the case of quite a lot of female violence in general, and toward men primarily.

I disagree, many serious crimes that women commit are often thought to be caused because of "abuse," a man making her do it, or to protect herself" instead of being seen as a willfull aggressor. Of 103 women sentenced to death in the US since 1977, only one has been executed. Chivalry justice is alive and well in the US. Dispute it if you want, but it is the truth.

Helen, I still think you're confusing two issues. I might agree that most women on death row for killing their spouses were likely to have done so because of abuse or fear, but I don't see any reason to presume that I'd extend that same thinking to women who kill in commission of another type of crime (consider Antoinette Frank in New Orleans), or who kill people not related to them out of anger or jealousy, or who kill their children out of neglect or to be relieved of the responsibility (Susan Smith), or who kill their spouses for money. We have more than 2 million people in jail in the US, and what, 93-94 percent are male? Anytime we talk about women and crime, we're talking about different factors than when we talk about men and crime. Feminists do indeed focus on the role of domestic abuse in homicide cases where women have killed a partner. I don't dispute that. But I don't see that argument made in other categories of violent crime. I'll add that as a feminist, the argument that "a man made her do it" particularly galls me when I see it made, so I guess I agree with you on that.

I also agree with you that we have an aversion to executing women, but I don't see how to blame that on feminism; you yourself cite chivalry, which surely can't be blamed on feminists. That's a bit of a contradiction: "Don't you dare open the door for me, you hairy man, but puleeaz suh, don't execute li'l ole me." I'm opposed to the death penalty, for many reasons, including the fact that it seems to be unequally applied. Your figures about women on death row support that view.

I'd be more worried if you presented figures showing that women are routinely charged with but not convicted of violent crimes because of the chivalry impulse. Certainly, the woman who killed a young neighbor over an insult should be facing a long, long sentence.

You and I agree on something else: we're both gun owners. That indicates we both support the rights of women to defend themselves against violence.