Letter: Take deep look before changing marriage law

Published: March 18, 2014 4:00 AM

It appears to me the question of homosexual marriage in Ohio may become fait accompli. In order to reduce further turmoil in this area I would offer my thoughts on how to proceed.

While it's apparent the current battle is being waged by the LGBT Political Action Committees and their supporters on behalf of the homosexual component of this group, as legislators you should realize the full scope of this issue before nibbling around the edges of current law. By this I mean, if you intend to do anything substantive you should make it full throated and sweeping to ensure leaving no stone unturned.

Aside from changing the state's definition of marriage to assuage concerns of the homosexuals, you must not forget the bi-sexual component of this group; meaning a repeal of polygamy laws as well. Common sense dictates if the state intends to recognize and legitimize meaningful committed bi-sexual relationships, any current state laws prohibiting polygamist unions will be a roadblock to bi-sexual marriage.

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The fact that bi-sexuality indicates an individual may wish to be in a meaningful committed relationship with two other people of different sexes requires the state to recognize that at times marriage could at a minimum, include three people. If the state should deal with the homo/bi-sexual marriage issue effectively, the trans-gender issue should take care of itself in the arena of marriage.

As for dealing with unforeseen issues that may arise from such sweeping changes to the law, I can only point out that any changes with so broad and sweeping a path as what I'm proposing here will most likely be fraught with unintended consequences which you as legislators are in a much better position to foresee than I am.

Of course as the saying goes, "the heart wants what the heart wants," and if in your deliberations among yourselves you see potential mine fields in the future, it will be up to you to make those compelling arguments to the people of Ohio as to why we shouldn't fundamentally change Ohio's laws related to what the state will recognize as a constitutionally ordained marriage.

So long as Ohioans can agree that marriage will be a covenant between human beings of consenting age, I see no constitutional limits on how people may wish to express their individual freedom so far as marriage is concerned.

Tim Bible

West Salem

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cog31 Mar 21, 2014 5:21 PM

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Buzz,

Paul the apostle gives an explanation of one of God's many "attributes" (which is part of His total character) and that is "wisdom." In order to conserve space and your time I will list this citation for you to read at your leisure. It's found in 1 Corinthians, chapter 1, verses 18-30.

You asked this, "Does a healthy father torture his children forever?" Are you referring to God the Father and eternal punishment for sin? If so, I will comment with that in mind.

After God had created Adam and Eve, He developed a relationship with them. He walked and talked with Adam and Eve. The relationship was similar to that between an earthly father and his children. But, the bible explicitly tells us God is perfect, holy, righteous and just, and mankind is not.

God gave Adam and Eve a very important instruction and command in the Garden, and that was to obey Him. God had created within them the freedom to choose whether or not to obey. If they chose to disobey, His judgement would be upon them... which was death. You can read about this event in Genesis, chapter 3.

Death was the consequence of Adam and Eve's sin. Meaning not only death of their physical bodies, but spiritual separation from God as well. This consequence resulted from their choice to sin, their choice to disobey God. This is what eternal punishment means, being separated from God for eternity. In a place (****) of torment that He had created for satan and the angels who rebelled against God. God did not create "****" for mankind. Nor does God choose to send mankind to that place of eternal separation from Him. It is mankind that makes that choice by disobeying God, rebelling against Him, and bringing on His judgement.

Another attribute that God has within His character is showing "mercy." God designed a plan to redeem mankind from the consequence of their sin. He gives mankind the choice to be with Him in eternity or to be separated from Him for eternity. It is because of God's great love and mercy toward us that He designed this plan and it involves Jesus Christ, His only Son, taking our place, sacrificing His life, in full payment for the consequence of our sin. So that mankind could have eternal life with God. This is a very brief description of God's plan. The bible goes into much more detail about God's redemptive plan in the New Testament books.

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BuzzKillington Mar 21, 2014 6:02 AM

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"A healthy father would love his children deeply."

Does a healthy father torture his children forever?

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cog31 Mar 20, 2014 8:24 PM

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Buzz,

In Leviticus 18:22, God says, "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable." The title listed for Chapter 18 is: Unlawful Sexual Relations.

In Leviticus 20:13, God says, "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." The title listed for Chapter 20 is: Punishments for sin.

If you were to read both of these chapters from beginning to end you would probably gain a better understanding of the context. There are many examples of people in the bible that refer to God as their heavenly Father. Many of our earthly fathers represented authority as well as protection and provision to us as children.

A healthy father would love his children deeply. He would provide what his children needed. He would be protective of his children and would teach them right from wrong, ie: morals. He also would have to create punishment when the rules were broken or unheeded in order to correct the destructive direction the children were taking.

God displays this identical relationship with the Jewish people, the Israelites. God loves His chosen people. In these 2 chapters God is instructing Moses on what to tell the Israelites. God is giving them rules (the Law) and He is requiring their obedience. God has seen the evidence of the Israelites' disobedience to Him and the destruction of the good that He created in them.

If you were to start reading at the beginning, in the book of Genesis, you could get a clearer picture of God the Father's relationship with mankind. What you are reading in these two chapters of Leviticus is God's perfect righteous anger and wrath upon the Israelites. This is not hatred. This is pure love. Would you call a father loving if he were to allow his children to do as they please without consequence or punishment when they disobeyed or when they disreguarded, ignored, disrespected their father's authority? Would you call a Heavenly Father loving if he didn't stop the destruction of sin upon mankind? God could have destroyed mankind long ago and end the destructive process of sin. But He didn't. He designed another plan. And that plan involves a kind of mercy that only He could give.

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BuzzKillington Mar 20, 2014 4:21 PM

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Levi 18:22

Levi 20:13

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cog31 Mar 20, 2014 1:50 PM

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Buzz, could you give me a citation or reference point from the bible regarding your question, so I will be able to read it? And then I can comment. Thanks.

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BuzzKillington Mar 20, 2014 6:15 AM

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If god loves gays why does he call them an " abomination" and prescribes a "bloody death" for them.

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onewiseoldman Mar 19, 2014 11:48 PM

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"Here is God's love for each of us: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."-John 3:16"

Did He repeat the "sacrifice" 100 billion times on all the other planets in the universe or are we the only ones................wow are some people conceited

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cog31 Mar 19, 2014 9:13 PM

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To Buzz:

[ I quote you from March 18, at 11:12 a.m.... "The point is your imaginary god will have to evolve it's earlier incorrect position on gays (lev 18:22)....] God's position on "gays" is related to the sexual sin that is committed between them. He hates the sin, but loves each one of them. God hates every form of sexual sin, and He lists them in Leviticus 18, but He still loves those who commit sin. No matter what that sin is. Read on.

As far as mankind (men and women), we are all made in the "likeness" of God.
"So God created human beings in his image. In the image of God he created them. He created them male and female."- Genesis 1:27 (For further understanding see : http://www.gotquestions.org/image-of-God.html )

We as Christians are to completely love the Lord our God and to love our neighbor/others as we love ourself.

"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'” -Matthew 22:34-40

God does not want us to hate anyone. We as Christians, myself included, and non-Christians fail to love others.

Here is God's love for each of us: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."-John 3:16

(Note: whoever believes, no one is exempt. Whoever believes in God's Son, Jesus Christ. Christ's purpose for coming to earth was to redeem mankind and restore their broken relationship with God.)

Another verification of God's love can be found in 1 John 4:7-9 : "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him."

Please read the 8th chapter of Romans. The apostle Paul is talking/writing here to believers in Christ, Christians. Paul writes in great detail giving any reader the understanding of what it means to believe in Jesus Christ.

Near the end of chapter 8, Paul says this:
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."- Romans 8:38-39

I challenge you to read the bible. It is not an easy task, but there is so much to learn and understanding to gain about God. The Old Testament (the law) is just as important as the New Testament (the new convenant that God designed for all of mankind, Jew and Gentile alike).

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BuzzKillington Mar 19, 2014 8:24 PM

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"gay marriage, polygamy, ***********, NAMBLA...when will it stop?"

Obviously when goats enter into a legal contract.

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onewiseoldman Mar 19, 2014 4:13 PM

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"polygamy, ***********, NAMBLA...when will it stop?"

drama queen is in the house

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anonymous_8341 Mar 19, 2014 1:55 PM

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*Beast ial ity

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anonymous_8341 Mar 19, 2014 1:52 PM

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gay marriage, polygamy, ***********, NAMBLA...when will it stop?

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skydiver Mar 19, 2014 12:08 PM

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Buzzo, you are truly pathetic!

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Why do you have bacon and eggs for breakfast ... do you hate cereal ... Why do you drive a Toyota ... do you hate Chevrolet ... Why do you live in a house ... do you hate condos ... ??? ...

We make choices all the time that are not based on hate ... but

Not in your world where hate overwhelms everything ... a world of baggers and teabaggers; low info rubes and dupes; the elderly and older Christians; conservatives and religious folks; hetrosexuals and the wealthy ... hate of any and all who dare to make choices that differ from yours ... yet

You have not rational argument one to offer in your slick bag of names that stink of

Pure hate

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JWHarte Mar 19, 2014 8:58 AM

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Buzz, Christians obey the law and same sex marriage will soon be the law in all 50 states. This means that your intolerance is nothing more than guilt feelings bubbling up and overriding your common sense. Christians don't hate gays and don't hate you. Get some respect for your straight brothers or stew in your moral culpability. Whining does not become you.

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onewiseoldman Mar 19, 2014 8:50 AM

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"God laughs"

at least we know He is in a good mood.......

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leeddog Mar 19, 2014 7:42 AM

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What would it possibly matter to me who someone else marries? None of my biz. It's called freedom; individual freedom and individual responsibility.

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BuzzKillington Mar 19, 2014 6:59 AM

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The point is Christian intolerance will no longer be tolerated. Christianist is now left to whine about the "slippery slope" fallacy of goats entering into contract and other absurdities that make sense to the deluded mind.

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eino Mar 19, 2014 6:31 AM

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BuzzKillington

March 19, 2014 5:46AM

"All of these problems would be solved if marriage licenses were simply eliminated."

There are no problems to be solved. All Americans are equal, and the Christian gay hate has been found unconstitutional. The only "problem" that might need to be solved is the Christian butthurt

There is no organized Christian hate toward homosexuals, on the contrary ... and the Christian position is that all peoples are equal ... the thousands of world-wide ethnicities are a glorious witness to the Lord ...

Sodomy laws in the USA no longer exist, so two homosexual males can freely hook-up and live together with all the traditional rights and privileges of marriage ... and soon they will be able to be legally married in all the 50 states ... and joined together in matrimonal bliss ...

Then come the polygamists after their share of the pie ... then the floodgates will be wide open and "anything goes" will be more than just a song title ...

Not to belabor the obvious, but don't miss the real war ... that is the sheer hatred of the homosexuals coming together as a mob ... a rabble dedicated to bringing the Christian Church to its knees ...

Such folly ... and all over the words in a book whose Author they deny ... they deny that He exists ... like a den of snakes blindly striking out, they deny ...

God laughs

.

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BuzzKillington Mar 19, 2014 5:46 AM

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"All of these problems would be solved if marriage licenses were simply eliminated."

There are no problems to be solved. All Americans are equal, and the Christian gay hate has been found unconstitutional. The only "problem" that might need to be solved is the Christian butthurt. The hope is this is the Christian Waterloo - Christian have over committed to their god's clear position on gays being an abomination not understanding marriage equality is fait accompli. The two positions are irreconcilable and we end up with Christians bizarrely weeping and gnashing of the denture about Americans being equal.

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major_ duh Mar 18, 2014 9:30 PM

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roadster, You drank the Kool-Aid of state required marriage licensing. I guess you missed the point. If marriage licensing no longer exists, the rules related to licensing no longer exist. There are powers of attorney, living wills, contracts, etc. allowing the couples (there would not be significant others) to have the rights necessary to deal with authoritative entities. Of course, any contract can be challenged - even the present marriage contract. Therefore, I cannot view that as a reason to keep the intrusive marriage license Those wishing to be married could sanctify their union in whatever way they would choose - a party, a commitment ceremony with their friends, the possibilities are endless. Those couples who wish wish to have a marriage ceremony in a church should certainly do so. Their marriage would then be valid in their eyes and the eyes of their deity (as I stated in my original post). No couple would ever have to give up their right to feel/be married in the eyes of their church. Having no marriage licenses eliminates many of your concerns - churches would not have to be recognized by the state since the state would have no interest in your marriage. Take away the license, take away the governmental intrusion into your private life. You get to call the shots for yourself with your own legal documentation of how you want to run your own life. Imagine that - you would not have to pay the state government to intrude in your life.

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road1ster Mar 18, 2014 4:36 PM

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thinkagain, what about people who want to be married, enjoy all the rights and privledges, but don't feel the need to be married by a church? For years a Justice of the Peace served that purpose. A license in this case shouldn't be permission, just recognition. Hospitals won't let 'significant others' visit, only next of kin. Wills can be overruled in favor of next of kin. And churches have to recognized by the state to be legitimate churches as well.

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major_ duh Mar 18, 2014 4:00 PM

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All of these problems would be solved if marriage licenses were simply eliminated. Marriage licenses have a long sordid history in the U. S. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln did not have marriage licenses. For decades marriages were the responsibility of local churches - no licensing required. Large scale state marriage licensing was an outgrowth of racism. The licensing was used to prevent interracial marriages and, at first, for only that purpose. But after the states realized what a tremendous source of revenue marriage licensing could provide, such licensing became widespread.

With that said, I propose the elimination of all marriage licensing. Such a move would eliminate the issues associated with the state defining marriage. A religious couple could marry within their church, following the traditions of their church, and have their union sanctified by their church. No state involvement - just the couple and their religious beliefs. People who are not religious could solemnize their union in any way they choose. In both cases, the couples could protect themselves, their children, and their assets contractually through the appropriate legal documents (i. e. trusts, contracts, etc.).

This seems like a solution for everyone involved. No one needs to define marriage, no one needs to pay the big government for the privilege to marry. Marriage would be what it is supposed to be - a private matter for the people involved. Problem solved, except for those who think they should have a say in everyone’s private business and impose their beliefs on everyone.

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 12:27 PM

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Fait accompli. I blame you for not praying hard enough.

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eino Mar 18, 2014 12:24 PM

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BuzzKillington

March 18, 2014 11:41AM

Biblical polygamy is illegal.

So was Same Sex Marriage just a few short years ago ...

That's why the Polygamists are in the courts and riding on gay coattails, wanting to make Polygamy legal (and the goat herders can't be far behind) ... btw

I am ever so glad that my mother rejected Same Sex Marriage in favor of exchanging vows with my father ... I shudder to think where I might be otherwise

???

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jwood Mar 18, 2014 11:45 AM

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This must be what 99% of Christians in this area believe. What is in this letter, and what is in the comments that follow. That has forever been the case on here. If not, any other Christians are allowing this group to be their spokespeople by keeping their mouths shut.

To **** with both groups, both the idiot clowns and those that sit in the background doing nothing. If there are any of those at all.

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 11:41 AM

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JWHarte Mar 18, 2014 11:40 AM

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Goats can't enter into contracts with gays, but goat herders and polygamists can.

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 11:25 AM

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Christians can cling to their narrow definition of marriage and you can still do Holy Matrimony. You can still hate gays and exclude everyone that isn't old, white and stupid. It's a win-win. The Christian myth will still sacrifice future adherents to coddle the elderly gay haters of today who are already on the wrong side of history. The old blue hairs will do much future damage before disappearing into the grave. It's a win-win.

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skydiver Mar 18, 2014 11:15 AM

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Giving more thought, I can't believe you are married. No intellegent and decent worman would live with a person like you.

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skydiver Mar 18, 2014 11:12 AM

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Answer the question Buzzo. Are you married? And don't be afraid to come out of the closet. No one will hurt you.

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 11:12 AM

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"I guess if you choose to change the age old definition of marriage to include homosexuals, why should you stop there?"

I know this is hard for Christianist to understand, but goats can not enter into contract. In America, marriage has always been defined as a contract between two consenting adults. If you'd like to use gender to determine who has access to a gov't liscense then Women's Suffrage would like to have a hands on talk with you out behind the barn.

The point is your imaginary god will have to evolve it's earlier incorrect position on gays (lev 18:22). Since this won't be forthcoming Christianists will have just have to add a new layer of cherry picking to your homophobic god's holy text or continue to dwindle. Either way this is just the latest installment of your puny god being hauled from the public square to the junk heap.

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anonymous_4492 Mar 18, 2014 10:46 AM

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Buzz funny you should say "Polygamy doesn't fit with the age old definition of marriage as two consenting adults" becase the age old definition of marriage is between two heterosexual consenting adults. You left a word out... Are you picking and choosing? I guess if you choose to change the age old definition of marriage to include homosexuals, why should you stop there? This is the point so many are making and I have to agree.... and I am not homophobic (or any of those other words you throw out there), just pointing out the irrational logic so many try and portray.

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 10:41 AM

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Marriage is a contract between two adults. Polygamy doesn't fit with the age old definition of marriage as two consenting adults. If you want polygamist biblical marriage just change the law.

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eino Mar 18, 2014 10:23 AM

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This must Sock Puppet Improv Tuesday ... none of the usual Talking Points or Spin ... they are making it up on the keyboard as they go ... and it shows ... yup

They have Same Sex Marriage covered ... but they are in a quandry about Polygamy ... and they tell the herders to leave the goats in the barn ... but

Not to worry, guys ... The Lord has all your answers ... feel free to query Him in prayer during or after your show

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anonymous Mar 18, 2014 9:43 AM

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OK...who cares about what the bible says...who cares about blow mouth christians and what they think,,,who cares about your goats and dogs...what is happening here is we are debating a law that will allow same but hole to but hole sex period. Surely this is a mental breakdown of two men and or women that wish to shove their beliefs onto society as they see it and all the idiots are running with it. there is something wrong with the whole thing begin with and it seems whenever a group thinks they are being denied their self calculated rights they want to shove that belief upon all others. Lawmakers, the scum that they are, get on the ban wagon as to not offend anyone and run with it too. What a mess you people have got yourselfs into. There will be seriors consequenses on this law in the future believe that.

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davidbadash Mar 18, 2014 9:27 AM

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What a shame that the writer, Tim Bible so blatently and proudly exposes his ignorance.

Bisexual people are not automatically polyamorous. And statistically, by the way, there are more bi people than gays and lesbians.

Bisexual people can be attracted to members of the same sex or to members of a different sex.

Just as most people don't fall in love with more than one person at a time, neither do most bisexual people.

Laws that extend marriage to same-sex couples have nothing to do with polygamy. The ignorant like to conflate the two, but the facts are the facts.

Also factual: every federal judge that has ruled on same-sex marriage since the US Supreme Court struck down Section 3 of DOMA has found bans on same-sex marrige unconstitutional.

And also factual: extending the rights and responsibilities of marriage to same-sex couples will only stengthen your communities. Same-sex couples are already raising over a million children in America today. If for no other reason, wouldn't you want those kids protected by legal, civil marriage laws, just as most of you and most of your children have been?

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road1ster Mar 18, 2014 9:16 AM

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Strange how so many 'anti-government intrusion' people are happy to have government decided who can be married, or forced to give birth.

Not surprised to see the groundless slippery slope arguments here, that ultimately a boy and his dogs can enjoy holy matrimony.

Citing history or a version of the bible as an authoritative stance will only get you in trouble, since women were considered property, love was not a consideration, and polygamy and concubines abounded.

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 9:15 AM

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Just Christians whining about their god being kicked from the public square. Again.

This issue is fait accompli. Christians are squarely on the wrong side of history and in 10 years will be suffering the fallout from your hate.

Christians can have Holy Matrimony and keep excluding gays. It can be separate but equal.

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JWHarte Mar 18, 2014 9:12 AM

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Everyone is happy, wisdomjacket? You forgot God.

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JWHarte Mar 18, 2014 9:00 AM

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You mention that marriage is a contract between two adults. Then you mention the polygamy and more than two adults of the bible, which by the way, the bible was not "recently" as you say. You can't have it both ways. The stamp of approval on same sex marriage does clear the field for polygamy. I can see it now, the Hugh Hefner Playboy Mansion will be replaced by the Neil Patrick Harris Polygon Castle.

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anonymous_8341 Mar 18, 2014 8:56 AM

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Are you married Buzz? Are you sure about animals?

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wisdomjacket Mar 18, 2014 8:54 AM

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Perhaps in future marriage will exist only within the church, mosque or synagoge. The state will recognize no such associations outside legal arrrangments like trusts and co-ownership. After all, we have as much out of wedlock procreation going on as we have within. The courts do no view the children any differntly in cases of custody or child support. Apart from division of property in the case of divorce or tax liability and ownership in death, there is little reason for the state to be involved in recognizing marriage at all. Deal with these issues and the state will never again issue a marriage license. Then the devout will be left to deal with the tenants of marriage within the belief system of their own faith. Everyone is happy.

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 8:38 AM

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Marriage has had many definitions until recently. One man, one woman marriage is the least common marriage in the Bible. I encourage Christians to continue equating marriage to **********. It's killing the future of your myth. The Christian god will simply have to evolve on it's earlier incorrect position on gays being detestable.

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JWHarte Mar 18, 2014 8:27 AM

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Marriage, until just a few years ago, was defined as a vow and a contract between a man and a woman. Same sex unions have since become the rage and that has emboldened the polygamist to lawyer up, so eino might well have a point even if it is tongue in cheek?

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 8:24 AM

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Marriage is a legally binding contract. Nobody is surprised you dont know this.

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bam Mar 18, 2014 8:21 AM

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BTW buzzy,I never signed a contract,I took a vow.Big difference.

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bam Mar 18, 2014 8:20 AM

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And here I thought buzzy was open minded.But apparently open only for what he thinks is right.Typical liberal.

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BuzzKillington Mar 18, 2014 7:05 AM

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Marriage is a contract between two adults. Goats can't enter into contract. Only a deluded religionists would think this.

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eino Mar 18, 2014 6:07 AM

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It appears to me the question of homosexual marriage in Ohio may become fait accompli....

This is all old news ... so ... what is next ... there are people standing in line who want to marry their dog, goat or horse ... and If historical precedent is not to be used to dispute such mammal to mammal marital unions ... what is a poor Wayne County boy supposed to think

???

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