It would take a martial arts historian to actively go out and search real answers and research everything possible for us to ever know a real answer. Then, the people would still need trust & faith in that persons discoveries. But once the map is made it is very easy to travel the path yourself if need be.

We should feel so lucky that someone has done just that. Not only publishing his research but actively teaching it and creating a very easy to follow map in the process. It just takes work on the individuals part to comprehend it all at once and see the whole picture.

Actually Neko, there are many people on this very forum that do not believe that tegumi was even a form of submission wrestling. They do not believe that grappling was used by karateka prior to the UFC to enhance their skill in karate. Again, my contention has always been that a form of submission wrestling was classically used by okinawans as a supplementary exercise which allows them to gain wrestling skill just like weight training does. I contend that this does make it a part of "karate." In addition, the joint locks, takedown/throws, and chokes in kata when combined with the wrestling skill obtained through grappling practice makes a complete karateka. This IS the old way, not a new way.

Quote:Actually Neko, there are many people on this very forum that do not believe that tegumi was even a form of submission wrestling. They do not believe that grappling was used by karateka prior to the UFC to enhance their skill in karate. Again, my contention has always been that a form of submission wrestling was classically used by okinawans as a supplementary exercise which allows them to gain wrestling skill just like weight training does. I contend that this does make it a part of "karate." In addition, the joint locks, takedown/throws, and chokes in kata when combined with the wrestling skill obtained through grappling practice makes a complete karateka. This IS the old way, not a new way.

Once again you are being very selevtive with your interpretation of people's words. You keep presenting things most of us would agree on as things we would argue against, then claiming these are you original argument.

Problem is you seem to trying to claim Karate is a totally "complete" art, while simultaneously admitting that cross-training is required to complete it, only you don't like to call it crosstraining for some reason.

Secondly, it really doesn't matter to anyone but historians what the content of Tegumi was, since no one seems to practice it alongside Karate today.

We all know there are grappling techniques in Karate, however it appears that most people still need to gain some exposure to dedicated grappling arts (including the Okinawans, and you) to really flesh out this part of their training.

Problem is you seem to refuse to view it as crosstraining, even though for all practical purposes it sounds like it was even in Funakoshi's time.

Basically I think you are trying to fit Karate into the marketing mold of an MMA world, and then claiming it is "the original".

Obviously I love Karate and I feel it contains alot of what is needed for the broad category of "self defense", however I stop short of pretending my training in other things is magically enveloped under the mantle of "Karate" when clearly it is Ju Jitsu, or what have you.

What do you mean you don't know why? Or it's like saying that grass is green or red. If that was the case then we wouldn't be having this conversation it would be a well documented fact and that can be proven.

But this is not the case on this topic in the document Med provide even Funakoshi could only say that some believe it or was connected to the development of Karate, with a ? If you read it and he went on to another topic.

Master McCarthy is well respected and admired but I've followed his career through the 60s- until now the only mention on this topic is similar to whats been discussed by past Masters. None came out and said that his Kata contains the secrets of their submission wrestling like they do the Dim Mak. Most just state it was benificail in their overall development, during their childhood I agree with that.

Med - I agree and see your reasoning how it connects with what you have done and experience personally. I agree it makes a fitter, tougher more rounded fighter that can really use his Karate techniques within other ranges. BUT THEY ARE NOT ONE. Even after seeing Master McCarthy's demonstrations of grappling in Tekki, its not done on your back. To say it could be well so can a front kick, but thats not where you train it and the fk is not part of well documented Osaekomiwaza like work or ground work.

I agree with your principle it does help overall development we differ only if it has documented source in our Katas.

Interesting debate, FWIW a school in my local area in Poland(it is a Fudokan Shotokan school) does what it calls "tegumi" practice. From what I have seen and practiced of it while in the class, it seems to be simple groundwork a la BJJ or Judo newaza. Trouble is, they're not very good at it, and coming from a dedicated groundfighting art(judo), I am quite shocked at how easy it is for me to control them positionally and in submissions, even with significant weight disadvantages.

Maybe I am unusual, but I never liked the idea of a "complete" art anyway. Jack of all trades and master of none as they say!

Quote:It would take a martial arts historian to actively go out and search real answers and research everything possible for us to ever know a real answer. Then, the people would still need trust & faith in that persons discoveries. But once the map is made it is very easy to travel the path yourself if need be.

We should feel so lucky that someone has done just that. Not only publishing his research but actively teaching it and creating a very easy to follow map in the process. It just takes work on the individuals part to comprehend it all at once and see the whole picture.

And I assure you, if anyone were to take the journey on their own they will find no greater truths than what Patrick McCarthy has presented us.

I m afraid not everyone agrees with that. It could be argued that Mr Mccarthy has just believed what he's been told by some Okinawan masters and ran with that. Mr Mark Bishop could be called a researcher who didn t just believe what he was told but researched the very roots of Okinawan culture including photographing the many unseen castles that dotted the land scape, a number of years on the other islands as a school teacher, islands that preserved part of Shuri culture that was destroyed in ww2 on main land Okinawa. Inside out practice of indigenous 'religous' practises. Interviewing, photographing, and training with the 'older generation' and much more. His next two books will answer alot of questions that have gone around in circles on this and other forums for years (and probably stimulate some more, but at least they will be fresh!)

In the end most will just continue to believe what they want regardless for creative imagination is the fuel of development, positive or negative and if an original premiss is flawed then all that follows must be too.

Quote:Once again you are being very selevtive with your interpretation of people's words. You keep presenting things most of us would agree on as things we would argue against, then claiming these are you original argument.

Huh? If I am talking about stuff we all agree about then why are people disagreeing with me. I put this out to you. If what I am saying has not been my original argument the please quote my posts in which I stated a different arguement.

Quote:Problem is you seem to trying to claim Karate is a totally "complete" art, while simultaneously admitting that cross-training is required to complete it, only you don't like to call it crosstraining for some reason.

I have said before if supplemental strength training such as push ups and running is cross training then yes, I am cross training. However, I don't believe it is possible to do hardly anything without cross training if that is the case. I don't actively promote myself as cross training in this instance because I don't in the other aspects of karate such as meditation, strength training, etc. So basically the only reason to do so would be to please you guys, right?

Quote:Secondly, it really doesn't matter to anyone but historians what the content of Tegumi was, since no one seems to practice it alongside Karate today.

Well, its not so much about tegumi but practicing a grappling art to gain certain basic skills. I personally did so for 4 years straigt at the beginning of my karate training as well as on and off since then beginning in 1990.

Quote:We all know there are grappling techniques in Karate, however it appears that most people still need to gain some exposure to dedicated grappling arts (including the Okinawans, and you) to really flesh out this part of their training.

Correct. I get the impression you don't remember me stating that grappling training is a necessary supplementary exercise to develop effective karate.

Quote:Problem is you seem to refuse to view it as crosstraining, even though for all practical purposes it sounds like it was even in Funakoshi's time.

Funakoshi didn't call it cross training either. The okinawans in fact didn't use a lot of terms in teaching and training. I like that better.

Quote:Basically I think you are trying to fit Karate into the marketing mold of an MMA world, and then claiming it is "the original".

Exactly what MMA marketing mold am I trying to fit into?

Quote:Obviously I love Karate and I feel it contains alot of what is needed for the broad category of "self defense", however I stop short of pretending my training in other things is magically enveloped under the mantle of "Karate" when clearly it is Ju Jitsu, or what have you.

I don't know who is pretending but there is more grappling out their than this "Ju Jitsu" you are referring to. Please read my above comments.

Maybe I am unusual, but I never liked the idea of a "complete" art anyway. Jack of all trades and master of none as they say!

I agree 100%, only so much time to train, good to prioritize what's what.

That's where you are misunderstanding. A jack of all trades does all things equally. A master has developed one aspect to a high level, however, can perform the other areas passably to place himself in a position where he can play to his strengths, not be defeated by his weakness. That is karate's strength putting yourself in a position to use your strengths to your advantage.