Grandia 3 is a waste of money, and I've heard nothing but bad things about Wild Arms 4 from friends who've played it.

I completely disagree. Grandia 3 is the most fun with an RPG that I've had in ages. Best turn based combat system ever. For all the complaints I've heard about the stereotypical nature of the story, I've been surprised at how good the story actually is (love all the character interaction they throw in). Can't comment on WA4 since I haven't played it (although unlike you, I've heard mostly positive things about it).

Hm...deep RPGs? I dunno, all of my suggestions have already been made. Basically pick up any Shin Megami Tensie game or spin-off (Digital Devil Saga, Persona, Devil Summoner) and you're set.

I keep hearing this from people all over the boards....but here's the thing. Yes the characters aren't all that...and Alfina is probably the worst female character ever...But for some reason everyone here is playing it or has played it. It's just FUN to play! Sometimes that's all a game needs.

Sorry to derail the topic but I think it's a bit relevant. Yes a game with a good thought provoking story/character is ALWAYS welcomed....but look at some of the current generation of RPGs. A lot of games lately dont have that. Look at Dragon Quest VIII!!!! Its story is...really not there. It's characters are kinda limited, yet everyone seems to play it or has played it.

Thought Provoking = probably good.Simple fun to play RPG = STILL A GOOD THING.

I keep hearing this from people all over the boards....but here's the thing. Yes the characters aren't all that...and Alfina is probably the worst female character ever...But for some reason everyone here is playing it or has played it. It's just FUN to play! Sometimes that's all a game needs.

Sorry to derail the topic even more, but the fact that everyone has played the game doesn't mean that everyone likes it. I gave up after 12 hours or so, and I know of quite a few others who've done the same. The battle system is enjoyble, there's no denying that, but it's not enough to save the game from mediocrity. And after a few hours not even the battle system was much fun any more, because I knew another cringeworthy cutscene or insanely linear dungeon was lurking just around the corner.

While I agree that DQ VIII's story wasn't the best, the game did have other qualities that Grandia 3 lack - namely a good cast of characters, a solid musical score and a lot of room for exploration.

But hey, the above is just my opinion of the game. If you feel otherwise, then that's perfectly fine by me. But I will still think that the game is a waste of money, and say so when someone asks. Especially if that someone, like blackthirteen, was looking for a game with "deep and serious atmosphere". Grandia 3 doesn't fit that bill, no matter how you look at it.

I don't know. For me, I could care less about the story and characters in a Grandia game, so long as I have loads of opportunities to fight. If it weren't for the incredible battle systems in Grandia 1 and 2, I'd have not enjoyed the games as much as I did. I didn't really like either from a story or character perspective.

And with RPGs, it can be difficult to really get a thought-provoking story that hasn't been done before. Why? Because combat is an essential component of RPGs and thus armed conflicts are a necessary part of the storyline. In genres like graphic (point-and-click) adventure, digital comic/digital novel, love adventure, armed combat is not a central component and thus games like that can focus on different kinds of storylines. Ones that don't necessarily involve grand battles. On the other hand, you really can't tell RPG type stories in these genres, because of the lack of armed combat.

But, yes, in terms of console RPGs, games like the Megami Tensei series and Xenogears/Xenosaga series come closest to offering mind-bending storylines.

As some food for thought, I offer up this link: http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/plotFARQ.html It basically says that in literature, there are only a set number of plots (be it 1, 3, 7, 36) and that every story is basically a retelling of a previous tale. If such theories are true (and I don't see how it can't be) in literature where a book is very open ended in how an author can write it, then such a theory may hold a lot of weight in X, Y, or Z genre of video game since the play mechanics can often limit the kinds of stories that can be told.

Dincrest, I don't think a story needs to be original in order to be thought-provoking. It can just be well-told, or handle tired themes in a fresh way. Stories, or art in general, also don't have to be original in order to be good.

As a general point, I don't identify "fun" with "thought-provoking". The two are completely independent of one another, I think, although they might often coincide. I can think of two games which, although I felt they were absolutely stupid on many levels, I found them to be extremely fun. These are Growlanser 2 and Breath of Fire 4. I had a lot of fun in particular with G2; one of the more enjoyable games I've ever played. maybe the most enjoyable. DragonQuest 8 is shaping up to be like this as well, it seems.

I have no idea what makes a game fun, though. It's like when you meet someone and just click with them. Mysterious.

I'm not making sense; I've been studying Greek for hours and now I'm really hungry...gar..

But from my personal experience, the most thought-provoking RPGs I've played often *did* display more originality than the numerous cookie-cutter entries in the genre. MegaTen for example.

On the other hand with other genres I've mentioned, the tales woven were thought provoking and everything despite utilizing very traditional interfaces. Ever 17 is a perfect example. The interface is very simplistic and very traditional for a Japanese digital novel, but the story and characters blew my mind.

My point: Originality isn't a necessity to provoke thought, but it sure helps. And oftentimes, people do tend to lump originality with thought-provoking together and the link I provided proves that you don't necessarily need originality to tell a really good story. But it sure helps. After all, when you've played as many RPGs as many of us in the community have, we get jaded and don't necessarily want a game that we feel leads us down the same roads we've traveled before.

Every idea already exists. Itís only the way elements are brought up together that makes a piece of art excellent or looks innovative.

Iíve been using my creativity for more than 15 years now, and even if most of the time I was proud of my ideas I was deceived (but accepted it somehow) to find them somewhere else one day or another.

Originality is only a group of ideas that are used in a low frequency. Back then I thought Western Lords was original, but then I heard about Wild Arm. And now there's Shadow Hearts: FtNW that use most of the elements used in Western Lords.

Itís like cooking. Every recipe already exists, but the way ingredients are mixed together really determine if a pizza is tasteful or not.