Posted this on Hitting the Fan, paste right into the boards since there's not much traffic...

About a year ago, I got into an argument with a fool (not advisable) that claimed that Colt McCoy was vastly more important to the team than Montario Hardesty. My point was that even if Hardesty was completely useless (which he had pretty much been up to that point), a backup RB (that sucks) that rarely saw the field could still be no more useless than a backup QB (that sucks) that never sees the field.

Turns out that Hardesty was and will be pretty key to the team in the Trent Richardson era, since Richardson appears to have a knack for nagging injuries.

The Browns reportedly will be holding Trent out until August to help prevent his lower right leg strain (suffered a couple weeks ago in practice) from evolving into a stress fracture. Just last week, Coach Rob Chudzinski was assuring everyone that the injury was not concerning and that Trent should be back at practice this week. I would assume that privately the injury IS "concerning" to the team, however, since this wouldn't be the first time I've heard the Org claim that the boo-boo was "no biggie" while the player's absence from the field dragged on - a combination that usually means "we ain't telling you the truth since you can't handle the truth".

So Hardesty, who was surprisingly effective last season under an increasing workload, will be taking first team reps for the foreseeable future and - if Trent "injury-prone is not going to be me" Richardson continues to be what he says he ain't - might be far more vital to the team than anyone could've guessed at this time last year.

And Hardesty's success (or roster spot) might come down to whether Norv gets full command of the offense and uses his staple, the power running game, or of Chud's system is implemented which involves much more zone read.

Because Trent is a power back who thrives in the Norv-style offense while Hardesty is much better in the zone running game.

My opinion is if Richardson is healthy is that Hardesty isn't on this roster when the season starts.

I think Dion Lewis is their 'Sproles' and Richardson is their 'Stephen Davis' and Jackson and Ogbonnaya are the backups/guys fighting for those specialist/backup spots.

I think Hardesty is a square peg in Turner's round hole offense and that Richardson would be a square peg in Chud's zone-style running game.

And Hardesty's success (or roster spot) might come down to whether Norv gets full command of the offense and uses his staple, the power running game, or of Chud's system is implemented which involves much more zone read.

Because Trent is a power back who thrives in the Norv-style offense while Hardesty is much better in the zone running game.

My opinion is if Richardson is healthy is that Hardesty isn't on this roster when the season starts.

I think Dion Lewis is their 'Sproles' and Richardson is their 'Stephen Davis' and Jackson and Ogbonnaya are the backups/guys fighting for those specialist/backup spots.

I think Hardesty is a square peg in Turner's round hole offense and that Richardson would be a square peg in Chud's zone-style running game.

YMMV.

How is he a square peg? He played very well last season I thought. His style is a nice running change of pace to TRich.

I see the Browns keeping TR, hardesty, Dion and Jackson. With Dion, Oby serves no purpose.

And Hardesty's success (or roster spot) might come down to whether Norv gets full command of the offense and uses his staple, the power running game, or of Chud's system is implemented which involves much more zone read.

Because Trent is a power back who thrives in the Norv-style offense while Hardesty is much better in the zone running game.

My opinion is if Richardson is healthy is that Hardesty isn't on this roster when the season starts.

I think Dion Lewis is their 'Sproles' and Richardson is their 'Stephen Davis' and Jackson and Ogbonnaya are the backups/guys fighting for those specialist/backup spots.

I think Hardesty is a square peg in Turner's round hole offense and that Richardson would be a square peg in Chud's zone-style running game.

YMMV.

How is he a square peg? He played very well last season I thought. His style is a nice running change of pace to TRich.

I see the Browns keeping TR, hardesty, Dion and Jackson. With Dion, Oby serves no purpose.

Hardesty and Oby are carbon copies physically. Dion Lewis is 5'7" and maybe 190. He's a different guy than Oby or TR or Jackson for that matter. Oby and Hardesty are competing against each other for that roster spot. One gets it, the other gets gone. I can see Hardesty fetching more in a deal (though not his acquisition cost for sure) to a zone running team than Oby and this will be a power run team if TR isn't dead.

If he's hurt or if Browns are concerned then I agree with you. But you don't see teams mix power and zone running games on the fly during games and I think you saw Hardesty struggle when he got hurt and came back after Browns went power with Hillis to replace him.

Personally see TR/Oby/Jackson and Lewis. And RBs typically aren't ST fodder (though Oby did play it some previously).

I agree his style is different than TR's for sure. So different that Hardesty isn't here because of the scheme itself that will benefit TR more than Shurmur's did last season.

And Hardesty's success (or roster spot) might come down to whether Norv gets full command of the offense and uses his staple, the power running game, or of Chud's system is implemented which involves much more zone read.

Because Trent is a power back who thrives in the Norv-style offense while Hardesty is much better in the zone running game.

My opinion is if Richardson is healthy is that Hardesty isn't on this roster when the season starts.

I think Dion Lewis is their 'Sproles' and Richardson is their 'Stephen Davis' and Jackson and Ogbonnaya are the backups/guys fighting for those specialist/backup spots.

I think Hardesty is a square peg in Turner's round hole offense and that Richardson would be a square peg in Chud's zone-style running game.

YMMV.

How is he a square peg? He played very well last season I thought. His style is a nice running change of pace to TRich.

I see the Browns keeping TR, hardesty, Dion and Jackson. With Dion, Oby serves no purpose.

Hardesty and Oby are carbon copies physically. Dion Lewis is 5'7" and maybe 190. He's a different guy than Oby or TR or Jackson for that matter. Oby and Hardesty are competing against each other for that roster spot. One gets it, the other gets gone. I can see Hardesty fetching more in a deal (though not his acquisition cost for sure) to a zone running team than Oby and this will be a power run team if TR isn't dead.

If he's hurt or if Browns are concerned then I agree with you. But you don't see teams mix power and zone running games on the fly during games and I think you saw Hardesty struggle when he got hurt and came back after Browns went power with Hillis to replace him.

Personally see TR/Oby/Jackson and Lewis. And RBs typically aren't ST fodder (though Oby did play it some previously).

I agree his style is different than TR's for sure. So different that Hardesty isn't here because of the scheme itself that will benefit TR more than Shurmur's did last season.

I see.

Ogby is much bigger than he plays. Had no idae he was in fact that big. I cede.

I think with T Rich being a question mark the back with higher ceiling plays.

The Browns kept their O Line coach so I don't see a radical shift in blocking. It seemed to benefit Montario's one cut & go style whereas t Rich was always looking for the play to extend and a lane to develope. Could be he's not used to the fact running agianst Pbgh is tougher than Troy State. IDK.

Right now I actually see T Rich having bigger bust potential than Weeds. I think Weeds is gonna bust out based on OTA reports.

And Hardesty's success (or roster spot) might come down to whether Norv gets full command of the offense and uses his staple, the power running game, or of Chud's system is implemented which involves much more zone read.

Because Trent is a power back who thrives in the Norv-style offense while Hardesty is much better in the zone running game.

My opinion is if Richardson is healthy is that Hardesty isn't on this roster when the season starts.

I think Dion Lewis is their 'Sproles' and Richardson is their 'Stephen Davis' and Jackson and Ogbonnaya are the backups/guys fighting for those specialist/backup spots.

I think Hardesty is a square peg in Turner's round hole offense and that Richardson would be a square peg in Chud's zone-style running game.

YMMV.

How is he a square peg? He played very well last season I thought. His style is a nice running change of pace to TRich.

I see the Browns keeping TR, hardesty, Dion and Jackson. With Dion, Oby serves no purpose.

Hardesty and Oby are carbon copies physically. Dion Lewis is 5'7" and maybe 190. He's a different guy than Oby or TR or Jackson for that matter. Oby and Hardesty are competing against each other for that roster spot. One gets it, the other gets gone. I can see Hardesty fetching more in a deal (though not his acquisition cost for sure) to a zone running team than Oby and this will be a power run team if TR isn't dead.

If he's hurt or if Browns are concerned then I agree with you. But you don't see teams mix power and zone running games on the fly during games and I think you saw Hardesty struggle when he got hurt and came back after Browns went power with Hillis to replace him.

Personally see TR/Oby/Jackson and Lewis. And RBs typically aren't ST fodder (though Oby did play it some previously).

I agree his style is different than TR's for sure. So different that Hardesty isn't here because of the scheme itself that will benefit TR more than Shurmur's did last season.

I see.

Ogby is much bigger than he plays. Had no idae he was in fact that big. I cede.

I think with T Rich being a question mark the back with higher ceiling plays.

The Browns kept their O Line coach so I don't see a radical shift in blocking. It seemed to benefit Montario's one cut & go style whereas t Rich was always looking for the play to extend and a lane to develope. Could be he's not used to the fact running agianst Pbgh is tougher than Troy State. IDK.

Right now I actually see T Rich having bigger bust potential than Weeds. I think Weeds is gonna bust out based on OTA reports.

I'm just guessin' and surmising. Big part will be whether they go all Norv offense or if they mix Norv and Chud.

If they mix (or go all Chud though that isn't happening no how no way with Weeds and this personnel) then you're on it and I agree Hardesty stays. If they go all Norv I think Oby stays and Hardest gets dealt for 4th or 5th.

And the reason I lean the way I do is Dion Lewis being Sprole-ish and David Nelson smelling 100% of Norv's WR tastes. That's why I think they're going all Norv with this group and letting Chud manage the coaches and get acclimated that way.

Like I said, that's just my reading of the tea leaves. Take it for what it's worth which ain't shit.

jb wrote:I think with T Rich being a question mark the back with higher ceiling plays.

My thought too, and I think that's clearly Hardesty. I agree more could be had for him in a trade than the Og, but it won't be juicy enough to settle for an inferior player as your main backup to an ouchy Trent.

If Hardesty continues to out-produce Trent into TC and the Preseason, I can easily see this being a split carry situation. But if you trade Hardesty and go with Og, you're looking at Trent carrying the bulk of the load. Which I'm not sure they'll be comfortable doing.

Newbie here. I had the opportunity to see Hardesty play a lot in college and he was tremendous his senior year at Tenn. He was an excellent pass receiver in college, too, but was terrible with the Browns last year receiving the ball. I was pleased to learn, though, that Hardesty is doing a great job catching the ball this spring. Watch for that this season. When healthy, he can be a real asset for the Browns, who are smart to feature a sound rotation of RBs.

jb wrote:Why does you using the term "carrying the bulk of the load" turn me into Motherscratcher and Butthead?

I'm with Hiko that the Browns are better off not putting the entire load on TR, but should spread it around a bit. I mean, what happens if he goes down?

On defense, I don't think you can count on Ward taking on that big of a load by himself. They should look into acquiring Another guy to out some of that on his shoulders...maybe a Kerry Rhodes.

The weak link for the Browns is the lack of quality depth in their secondary. Back ups are very questionable at all DB positions. My biggest disappointment in the draft was not using those 4th and 5th round picks to add a CB like BW Webb from William & Mary or Philip Thomas, Fresno State, or Bacari Rambo, Georgia. Don't know if you guys have discussed that kind of thing on this board.

And hopefully McFadden can play because I agree the DBs (and back 7 overall) is weak. They'll go with combo coverage to try and minimize that somewhat so Haden will likely be on opposing #1 WR all year long and others will get FS help (from Bademosi IMO as he may well win that gig).

But they'll be looking at waiver wire and roster cuts closely to try and find some more DB help.

AttackOffense wrote:

motherscratcher wrote:

jb wrote:Why does you using the term "carrying the bulk of the load" turn me into Motherscratcher and Butthead?

I'm with Hiko that the Browns are better off not putting the entire load on TR, but should spread it around a bit. I mean, what happens if he goes down?

On defense, I don't think you can count on Ward taking on that big of a load by himself. They should look into acquiring Another guy to out some of that on his shoulders...maybe a Kerry Rhodes.

The weak link for the Browns is the lack of quality depth in their secondary. Back ups are very questionable at all DB positions. My biggest disappointment in the draft was not using those 4th and 5th round picks to add a CB like BW Webb from William & Mary or Philip Thomas, Fresno State, or Bacari Rambo, Georgia. Don't know if you guys have discussed that kind of thing on this board.

jb wrote:Why does you using the term "carrying the bulk of the load" turn me into Motherscratcher and Butthead?

I'm with Hiko that the Browns are better off not putting the entire load on TR, but should spread it around a bit. I mean, what happens if he goes down?

On defense, I don't think you can count on Ward taking on that big of a load by himself. They should look into acquiring Another guy to out some of that on his shoulders...maybe a Kerry Rhodes.

The weak link for the Browns is the lack of quality depth in their secondary. Back ups are very questionable at all DB positions. My biggest disappointment in the draft was not using those 4th and 5th round picks to add a CB like BW Webb from William & Mary or Philip Thomas, Fresno State, or Bacari Rambo, Georgia. Don't know if you guys have discussed that kind of thing on this board.

The November Browns fan in me is is lock step with you. We are loaded up with unproven kids and pssed up vets.

The June Browns fan says that I'm hearing good things about Owens in OTA's and he may be able to step up if the Horton D gets the pressure as adverstized. He's a young player with Sunday exprince. June Browns fan says that Sjrine has ability but not technique. He ran with plyers and didn't get toasted but he panniced when the ball came and was flagged. Playing at a small school this might be correctable and he couldbe a good slot CB. The June Browns fan says that McFadden has everything you'd like from a prospect on paper.

June Browns fan hears and reads raving about Gibson at FS by the coaches. They also like Addibisi alot at S. Seing they relaesed Hagg, who I didn't think was Percy Ellsworth aweful is a good sign.

lastly, I truly see the DB's improvement based on Horton's syneregy where the D will be more than the sum of it's parts as it has great front 8 rotation so they can play balls to the wall 4 seconds at a time all game and stay fresh. They tactical will be confusing to the O and better then the smple R&R system of Jaraun. Reports are Sheard is no Kennard Lang in tarsnition and Keke is picking up playingin space like a natural. So youhave 4 OLB's that can play and rush, 3 ILB's (4 if you thought Fort was OK) who might be worth a dang, and the DL is deep, deep, deep. We may see VERY different resultsin quarter 4 with a QB not being able to sit back and get a mani-pedi in the pocket.

The guy I worry about is Owens. He was train wreck last year for Atlanta and if we thought Patterson was bad in that role, this could be worse. Go and do a Google search and read some of the media and fan comments about Owens.

But hold on! Chud, on the other hand, liked what he saw of Owens. It'll be interesting to see who is right -- Atlanta media/fans or Chud!

I think Gipson will be OK but I'd love having a more athletic guy in that free safety role. For example, the Steelers new FS/SS, the short Shamarko Thomas, ran the 40 a lot faster than Gipson did it. It'll be interesting to see who turns out better, Gipson or Thomas. Redskins also have a FS named Thomas, Philip Thomas, who may be a good one. I saw a lot of Bacari Rambo at Georgia -- superb athlete who the Redsksins also picked up in the 5th round. Knock on Rambo is his off the field stuff.

AttackOffense wrote:The guy I worry about is Owens. He was train wreck last year for Atlanta and if we thought Patterson was bad in that role, this could be worse. Go and do a Google search and read some of the media and fan comments about Owens.

But hold on! Chud, on the other hand, liked what he saw of Owens. It'll be interesting to see who is right -- Atlanta media/fans or Chud!

I think Gipson will be OK but I'd love having a more athletic guy in that free safety role. For example, the Steelers new FS/SS, the short Shamarko Thomas, ran the 40 a lot faster than Gipson did it. It'll be interesting to see who turns out better, Gipson or Thomas. Redskins also have a FS named Thomas, Philip Thomas, who may be a good one. I saw a lot of Bacari Rambo at Georgia -- superb athlete who the Redsksins also picked up in the 5th round. Knock on Rambo is his off the field stuff.

AttackOffense wrote:The guy I worry about is Owens. He was train wreck last year for Atlanta and if we thought Patterson was bad in that role, this could be worse. Go and do a Google search and read some of the media and fan comments about Owens.

But hold on! Chud, on the other hand, liked what he saw of Owens. It'll be interesting to see who is right -- Atlanta media/fans or Chud!

I think Gipson will be OK but I'd love having a more athletic guy in that free safety role. For example, the Steelers new FS/SS, the short Shamarko Thomas, ran the 40 a lot faster than Gipson did it. It'll be interesting to see who turns out better, Gipson or Thomas. Redskins also have a FS named Thomas, Philip Thomas, who may be a good one. I saw a lot of Bacari Rambo at Georgia -- superb athlete who the Redsksins also picked up in the 5th round. Knock on Rambo is his off the field stuff.

Man- I want Skrine to be a player. But I'd feel a whole lot better about him if he wasn't pushing around the only guy on the roster smaller and less inclined to hit something than Skrine is. Travis Benjamin is a contact-fearing flea.

Buster Skrine sure is a disappointment. He was a one man penalty machine in 2012.

Re the #2 corner, don't forget that even if McFadden starts, he is still a rook, and don't forget that Gipson has little experience at FS and Bademosi even less. So, half the starters in the secondary are quality, expeienced guys and the other half are inexperienced. And the backup situation is weak. Gotta hope for that big pass rush working, but I worry about what opposing offensive coordinators will do to offset our defensive strategy. Well, the NFL is always a chess match ...

I agree that's not in the cards. Re safety, there was speculation that the Browns might bring in Kerry Rhodes who played FS for Horton last year in AZ, but he's 31 and there are also some off-field rumors about him. Probably good not to pursue him. I do wonder, though, if bringing in a guy like Woodson might have been interesting to mentor Gipson and Bademosi.

Hikohadon wrote:Are there any Corners out there (likely older) that might be worth a one-year contract?

They're not goin' there.

I know they're not. That doesn't mean they shouldn't.

If I'm GM and have the ungodly plethora of cap space they have, I bring in plenty of older street guys on one year contracts if I think they're better than what's there now. If TC rolls around and what's there now ends up being better, one-year contract guy gets released. Otherwise I wait for the W-L record to get ugly before sacrificing games to "development" and/or "learning".

I'm all for five year plans, but I think you can also try to win now in one.

Why do you want one? To make plays or to mentor players? Because I think the ones who can make plays are already on rosters and I think the Browns brass is pretty much telling Haden and Ward that they ARE the leaders/mentors/etc.

Not saying I disagree with you. Just think they're looking to find some things out really fast this season to make sure they prioritize needs and get what they need to get this next off season.

peeker643 wrote:Why do you want one? To make plays or to mentor players? Because I think the ones who can make plays are already on rosters and I think the Browns brass is pretty much telling Haden and Ward that they ARE the leaders/mentors/etc.

Not saying I disagree with you. Just think they're looking to find some things out really fast this season to make sure they prioritize needs and get what they need to get this next off season.

To make plays. Fuck mentoring - they have coaches for that.

And it may very well be the case that all the guys that are still out there aren't any better than what we have. I'm just saying I wouldn't not look at a guy who I thought was better just because I wanted to develop younger players. Sick and tired of building for the future which never comes.

peeker643 wrote:Why do you want one? To make plays or to mentor players? Because I think the ones who can make plays are already on rosters and I think the Browns brass is pretty much telling Haden and Ward that they ARE the leaders/mentors/etc.

Not saying I disagree with you. Just think they're looking to find some things out really fast this season to make sure they prioritize needs and get what they need to get this next off season.

Woodson might have helped as a fill-in at safety-- not much behind Ward and Gipson. I understand your point, though.