turns out I've been riding my DR-Z400SM with a loose Counter shaft sprocket bolt, can I retorque to 80lbs?

turns out I've been riding my DR-Z400SM with a loose Counter shaft sprocket bolt, can I retorque to 80lbs?

By Run-Forest-Run, Posted May 5, 2012

Hi guys/girls as it turns out my 08 DR-Z400sm with 4300 klm's has a loose CS spocket bolt. I bought the bike used and (didn't check that bolt until last night), I could turn it with my fingers. There was no oil leaking at all and the seal and the splines and countershaft spacers all looked good. I am going to do the counter shaft loctite fix. I heard there is a risk of a seizing the bushing by performing this on a bushing that's already worn after torqing the nut to 80 ft. lbs.?

I have road the bike for about 200 KLM with it loose and who knows how long the prevouse owner road it with it loose so it has been run with a loose CS bolt. So will re-torquing to 80LBS hurt that bushing on second gear, should I lower the torque to say 65LBS with some red lock tight just to be safe?

Thanks

Ryan

Edited May 5, 2012 by Run-Forest-Run

By Rib Eye, Posted May 5, 2012

By Run-Forest-Run, Posted May 5, 2012

I have, and where it says........."1 of the 2 test bushings started to bind on 2nd gear ID at 80 ft lb"....... is the reason I ask about the 80LBS being to much on what could be a worn bushing (I have no clue if it is worn or not). So I'm wondering if 80LBs has the potential to mushroom that second gear bushing?

Like I was saying the bike has been ridden while the countershaft bolt was loose, so, do u think I should use 50 or 60 LBS just to be safe. Last thing I want is for second gear to fuse to that bushing.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Run-Forest-Run

By Rib Eye, Posted May 6, 2012

From what I've read you should rotate the counter shaft with your hand and if if turns freely with no binding, you should be fine to reassemble to the spec. If binding it's best to start thinking about further disassembly. Though others with much more knowledge than me will likely correct me if I'm wrong.

By fredsnow, Posted May 6, 2012

Must have done a couple hundred miles on mine before I noticed it was loose. Felt like an idiot, becuase I had read all about the fix here on TT but forgot. That was around 5-6 thousand miles. It happened again at around 15,000 miles due to a crappy loctite job. I now have 29,000 miles on my bike and no bushings/bearings have been replaced. I may be one of the lucky ones? I now check it before and after each ride.

By Noble, Posted May 6, 2012

The loose sprocket is common but it will take a lot of abuse before re-torque will size it up.

Torque to 80 ft lb. Rotate the countershaft in neutral by hand. If it rotates with no binding, it is fine (it probably will be fine). If all is good, take it apart, clean and Loctite.

If it has been run loose for a long time, it is good to replace the nut and the lock washer. The threads can wear out in the nut and the locking splines can wear out of the lock washer. Both are pretty cheap.

By chevybowtieguy, Posted May 6, 2012

By sideways smiling, Posted May 6, 2012

I had put about 1000kms on mine before I had time to check it and this is after I had read all the info on the fix. I took the cover off only to touch the nut and it feel off, the washer had been bent flat again and everything. I travel about 200km's a day mainly freeway (110km/h) and hate to think what may have happened if this has come off doing that type of speed.

I completed the fix without any issues and would recommend this to all DRZ owners, especially when buying second hand bikes.

By Noble, Posted May 6, 2012

chevyguy - Are you talking primary gear crankshaft nut or the transmission countershaft sprocket nut. It the countershaft nut torque has been changed, that is new information.

By chevybowtieguy, Posted May 6, 2012

Service manual calls it the engine sprocket nut. Its the nut holding the front sprocket for the drive chain. The primary drive gear nut is the one holding the generator rotor on the crankshaft right? Service manual was revised as of apr. 2011 so i don't know if the torque spec has been changed or not?

Edited May 6, 2012 by chevybowtieguy

By Run-Forest-Run, Posted May 6, 2012

Must have done a couple hundred miles on mine before I noticed it was loose. Felt like an idiot, becuase I had read all about the fix here on TT but forgot.

I felt the same way, this is my first street legal bike and I just received my M1 so I was so excited to ride it I put the lock tight fix's on the back burner, well that was a mistake. I just bought some new Stator bolts and have yet to install them, I'm not driving it another foot untill I do as this was kind of a wake up call. The bike only has 4300KLM so I was suprised that stuff lossens in such little use.

I'll be sure to check with the chain off the sprocket if it's binding after it's torqued.

Also in doing the "Red Lock Tigh" fix, is there a difference between Pertamax red threadlocker and the true name brand Lock Tight?

Thanks to everyone, your advice is much appreciated.

By fredsnow, Posted May 6, 2012

By Noble, Posted May 6, 2012

Chevyguy --- Terminology can be confusing. Who is the publisher of your service manual? "Engine sprocket" is pretty vague. To my knowledge (and I follow this subject closely), Suzuki changed the torque on the crankshaft primary drive gear nut, (that would be the right hand side of the crankshaft gear that transmits power to the clutch), from 80 ft lb to 100 ft lb.

The nut that holds the drive sprocket to the transmission output shaft, commonly known as the counter shaft and countershaft sprocket, (the sprocket that transmits power to the rear wheel by chain) is 80 ft lb. It could have been upgraded to 100 but I would like to see that in a Suzuki tech manual.

"Primary drive gear is definitely not the generator rotor. The generator rotor, or flywheel, torque is 70 ft lb. The primary drive gear nut as explained in the first paragraph is 100 ft lb.

Some motors such as Harley Davisdson actually have a primary drive "Engine Sprocket" and it is on the engine crankshaft (transmits power from the crankshaft to the clutch by chain). And a final drive sprocket that transmits power from the transmission to the rear wheel (on HD by belt)

Run-Forest ---- Loctite (correct spelling) thread locker is a brand name of the Henkel corporation. Several other brand names of thread lockers including Permatex are in use. As far as I know, they are equal to the Loctite brand perhaps licensed by Loctite. The Permatex brands seem to be the common brand in auto parts stores and the Loctite brand common in industrial applications.

By Roger95, Posted May 6, 2012

Chevyguy --- Terminology can be confusing. Who is the publisher of your service manual? "Engine sprocket" is pretty vague. To my knowledge (and I follow this subject closely), Suzuki changed the torque on the crankshaft primary drive gear nut, (that would be the right hand side of the crankshaft gear that transmits power to the clutch), from 80 ft lb to 100 ft lb.

The nut that holds the drive sprocket to the transmission output shaft, commonly known as the counter shaft and countershaft sprocket, (the sprocket that transmits power to the rear wheel by chain) is 80 ft lb. It could have been upgraded to 100 but I would like to see that in a Suzuki tech manual.

"Primary drive gear is definitely not the generator rotor. The generator rotor, or flywheel, torque is 70 ft lb. The primary drive gear nut as explained in the first paragraph is 100 ft lb.

Some motors such as Harley Davisdson actually have a primary drive "Engine Sprocket" and it is on the engine crankshaft (transmits power from the crankshaft to the clutch by chain). And a final drive sprocket that transmits power from the transmission to the rear wheel (on HD by belt)

Run-Forest ---- Loctite (correct spelling) thread locker is a brand name of the Henkel corporation. Several other brand names of thread lockers including Permatex are in use. As far as I know, they are equal to the Loctite brand perhaps licensed by Loctite. The Permatex brands seem to be the common brand in auto parts stores and the Loctite brand common in industrial applications.

Yet another great post Nobel. You cleared up alot of questions for me.

By chevybowtieguy, Posted May 6, 2012

yeah you gotta love service manual terminology. I work on cars for a living, and the english ones are the best for weird terminology haha, crazy brits. It would be great if engineer's spoke the same language as mechanics. But anyway the manual I have is a factory suzuki service manual, prepared and copywriten by suzuki motor corporation, and says its been revised as of apr. 2011. and yes the engine sprocket, or countershaft sprocket, transmission output sprocket, etc. the one that turns the drive chain to drive the rear wheel, deffinitely says torque is 105 ft. lbs. I have never had my engine far enough apart to have to mess with the primary drive gear nut, but i have changed my countershaft sprocket a few times, i know right where that one is. just trying to be helpful, thought maybe the spec had been changed.

By Noble, Posted May 7, 2012

Well, now I believe it. Apparently that torque spec has been changed. I'll have to see about getting that changed in the FAQ section. Thanks for the input. Maybe Suzuki finally figured out that nut comes loose to often.

By AKW89, Posted May 7, 2012

Well, now I believe it. Apparently that torque spec has been changed. I'll have to see about getting that changed in the FAQ section. Thanks for the input. Maybe Suzuki finally figured out that nut comes loose to often.

Awsome.... just did the locktite today... oh well, 80 for me.

By grumpy400, Posted May 7, 2012

Did I read the fix explanation wrong?

It seemed to me that the CS Loctite fix was to apply the Loctite to the splines on the counter shaft so as to eliminate a minor "shifting" of the sprocket. Right?

If that is accurate then I have 2 questions; does replacing the OEM sprocket solve the slack issue and if you change your CS sprocket relatively often do you really want Loctite on the CS splines?

All of these thoughts are completely separate from the idea of using thread locker to hold the CS nut in place. Just wondering.

By Run-Forest-Run, Posted May 7, 2012

As an experiment I have decided to try my luck at 65lb, after looking at the parts diagram I am starting to wonder if torquing to 80lb could infact cause that bushing to bow. I've had RM dirt bikes all my life, those just used C-clips to keep the front sprokets on, and the sprockets because of this were never exactly truly tight. My line of thinking is, if it's vibration or lateral stress that is the cause for DR-Z's wearing second gears bushing, then how come it never happends on other bikes with similar drive shaft configurations?

"1 of the 2 test bushings started to bind on 2nd gear ID at 80 ft lb and the other bushing started to bind the gear at 100 ft lb. Both bushings were very tight to 2nd gear (would hardly turn) at 150 ft lb. Both bushings, even after the 150 ft lb test, seemed fine again at 50 ft lb"......After reading Nobles findings here, it's kind of hard not to think that maybe 80ft could be issue (even though he said it shouldnt be) I still just cant help but wonder, what if it truly is.

So with that said, I dont mean to stir the pot here by second guessing Nobles findings, I'm not. However after looking at the layout of the parts diagram it really has me cringing that that little bushing has to take all that compresion force, combine that with the fact that "some" people do have them bind at 80lb. So I have decided to try my luck at 65lb with some blue "Loctite"...proper spelling this time ...and see how that holds up, it can't hurt just to try it. I'll let you guys know how it holds up at that torque after I get a couple thousand KLM on it.

Thanks again to everyone for all your advice.

By JEB1962, Posted May 7, 2012

I think the CS loctite fix is a set it and forget it fix...sorta...cause you sorta want to keep an eye on it.