The best we can hope for in 2018 is the pitching staff remains healthy, Travis(best pure hitter on the team) and Tulo come back healthy and remain that way the entire season, possibly sign JB to a 1 year incentive laden contract he might be good for 20 homers and a .750+ OPS. That would put us in contention for a wild card spot. We are better than the Rays and the Orioles

The issue for the WC isn't likely to be the Rays or Orioles. It'll be being better than teams like the Angels, Twins and Red Sox.

Not going to win without pitching and we have a much better staff than both the Angles(even with Otani) and the Twins.

I'm not forgetting him. I'm just saying that the Angels had a lower ERA than the Jays did last year. Yes, the Jays will hopefully have a healthy Sanchez and that will presumably positively affect the Jays ERA but the Angels will have Ohtani which will presumably do the same for them. They also might have a healthy Garrett Richards. And so on and so forth.

So will the Jays have a lower ERA than the Angels next year? Maybe but it's far from a sure thing.

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Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon-Mark Twain

the Twins' bad pitching didn't stop them from winning 85 games last year.

Yeah. The Twins have the distinct advantage of playing in the AL Central, so, whatever talent advantages the Jays may have are more than made up for by how much easier Minnesota's schedule is going to be.

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"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

I'm not forgetting him. I'm just saying that the Angels had a lower ERA than the Jays did last year. Yes, the Jays will hopefully have a healthy Sanchez and that will presumably positively affect the Jays ERA but the Angels will have Ohtani which will presumably do the same for them. They also might have a healthy Garrett Richards. And so on and so forth.

So will the Jays have a lower ERA than the Angels next year? Maybe but it's far from a sure thing.

Well the thing is, even if everything does go right and the Jays can claim the wild card, they will still have to beat the Yankees. Picture Judge and Stanton hitting back to back in the Yankees lineup. They are going to light it up. I just can't see the Jays beating the Yankees this year in any capacity. Toronto fans aren't stupid, either. The fans are going to be extremely upset if they parade the same team out there as they had last season and they lose again. The fans would tolerate a full and proper rebuild better than that. If they try to scramble and rebuild at the end of next season I don't think they will be able to do it properly. There's just not enough time. I guess they could get something at the trade deadline for Donaldson. Beyond him I'm not too sure though. We gave up a top pitching prospect for each deadline piece that we acquired.

It's really hard for us to know at this point what is really going on. Perhaps the Cardinals just aren't offering anything of significance for Donaldson.

I think the monkey wrench in all of this is management's insistence that they get major league talent *and* prospects for Donaldon. They would do better by only acquiring prospects and then just tank. The Jays aren't going to win next season. They should stop pretending otherwise. Like I said, the fans aren't stupid. Actually Toronto fans are probably some of the smartest fans in the whole league.

Well the thing is, even if everything does go right and the Jays can claim the wild card, they will still have to beat the Yankees. Picture Judge and Stanton hitting back to back in the Yankees lineup. They are going to light it up. I just can't see the Jays beating the Yankees this year in any capacity. Toronto fans aren't stupid, either. The fans are going to be extremely upset if they parade the same team out there as they had last season and they lose again. The fans would tolerate a full and proper rebuild better than that. If they try to scramble and rebuild at the end of next season I don't think they will be able to do it properly. There's just not enough time. I guess they could get something at the trade deadline for Donaldson. Beyond him I'm not too sure though. We gave up a top pitching prospect for each deadline piece that we acquired.

I more or less agree with you strategically. Where I don't necessarily agree with you is with the idea of fans as a monolith in anyway or another. Yes, some fans will not be happy with the Jays even if they make a wild card because they have a very small chance of then making real noise in the playoffs and they'll have lost a year in what would be a rebuild.

That said, there are a lot of casual fans who would just be happy with meaningful September baseball. Maybe a little bit of scoreboard watching. You or I could say that those fans are wrong or misguided if we want but there is a large segment of the ticket buying public who really don't think about things like long-term planning or a team's prospect base. Heck, a lot of fans are kids and try explaining a long term rebuild to someone under the age of 12 and watch their eyes glaze over.

So, again, I think you're right in terms of what strategy would bring the team to a state where they would be real championship contenders in the least amount of rebuilding time I don't necessarily agree that "the fans" wouldn't give a range of opinions on it. We can not like Rogers making moves with an eye on the budget sheet but we should at least be fair with what those costs are. If the Jays tank it, and really tank, and lose 90-95 games next year then attendance and viewership will sink and significantly so.

I think the monkey wrench in all of this is management's insistence that they get major league talent *and* prospects for Donaldon.

That depends on what they mean there. I think, for the purposes of tanking and rebuilding, that a talented 21 or 22 year old player is significantly more valuable than a prospect just because you have a pretty good idea that someone of value will still be around when the team is competing again but probably won't be good enough to win many games on their own.

A good example of this is the Astros. Back when they were losing 100 games a year they weren't devoid of young MLB talent. They still had guys like Altuve and Keuchel around in pre-superstar mode(or in Keuchel's case just being outright bad). If that's the sort of "major league talent" the Jays are looking to add for Donaldson I think that's a good idea.

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Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon-Mark Twain

Fair enough. We'll see what happens. If management does nothing it's going to be hard to be excited about the team for 2018. Even if they trade Donaldson and rebuild I would still want to watch out of interest. Actually I would find that more interesting than watching the same team as we saw last season. If they do that I will find it frustrating to watch. Seeing Tulo and Travis getting injured is going to be hard to watch. Same goes for Martin and any of the pitching staff. And thinking that those guys are not going to be injured is a pipe dream.

The Jays just signed Curtis Granderson to a one year deal worth $5 million. I can't say I understand this one. He has a .212 batting average. This is a huge slap in the face to Jose Bautista. This is not how the franchise should be treating a franchise icon like Bautista. Very sad. I certainly hope this is not the only outfielder they will get.

The Jays just signed Curtis Granderson to a one year deal worth $5 million. I can't say I understand this one. He has a .212 batting average. This is a huge slap in the face to Jose Bautista. This is not how the franchise should be treating a franchise icon like Bautista. Very sad. I certainly hope this is not the only outfielder they will get.

Batting average? Cute.

Last season, Granderson was at least a roughly average bat: OPS of .775, OPS+ of 103, and WAR of 1.5. Bautista, on the other hand: OPS .674, OPS+ 76, and WAR -1.7.

Granderson may not be elite or anything, but, at this point, he's an upgrade on Bautista in basically every way.

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"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan