Oh, about your comment of not knowing someone else's personal situation. Should those remain quiet while there are those subjugated to violence? It is like someone noticed someone hurt, they have had violence perpetrated upon them. You may not know what is going on with them personally, but do you not see if their okay? Do you not inquire? Or is their privacy so much more important than their safety?

Who said anything about remaining quiet?

Had you been paying attention to this thread, you would have seen that I am a supporter of contraception access to prevent unwanted pregnancies and for the benefit of reproductive health. I support clinics that provide medical care to those who would not be able to afford it otherwise. I explained (at length) that while my family is pro-choice, we've always supported initiatives that promote the value of life over choosing abortion.

I don't presume that a woman walking into a clinic for the purpose is an unthinking killer, because I don't know that woman. I have no way of knowing if she was raped, or the state of her health, if she'd just lost her job and insurance and couldn't pay for a pregnancy, or if she'd been abandoned by the baby's father. I can't presume to imagine what she had to do to come to that decision, and it's not my place to judge that person.

It's not a matter of standing by and doing nothing. Stopping abortions is more than just blocking the doorway and wagging your finger.

I have to say I've never been a fan of the "glob of cells" metaphor, since, all life amounts to that.

Having said that, I do believe that a fetus should be considered as something more substantial than a zygote, or embryo. The pro-life movement weakens its arguments when it refuses to make distinctions.

In later stages, there really is no difference between killing a baby and a fetus. Talk to a fetus who survived an abortion long enough to be promoted to "baby" some time.

Define abortion for me. If it is not the terminating of an unborn child, then what is it?

It has a few definitions....

: the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as

a: spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage

b: induced expulsion of a human fetus

People are telling you, explaining to your their opinion....you asking, over and over and over again is not going to change their mind. Their opinion is different from yours, if you cannot respect that, respond with your opinion and discuss in a tone that shows respect....then you need to move on.

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
Maya Angelou ...

Oh, about your comment of not knowing someone else's personal situation. Should those remain quiet while there are those subjugated to violence? It is like someone noticed someone hurt, they have had violence perpetrated upon them. You may not know what is going on with them personally, but do you not see if their okay? Do you not inquire? Or is their privacy so much more important than their safety?

There are laws for certain people who see those subjugated to violence....as in, myself as a teacher it is required by law that I report child abuse in any form....

You are taking your opinion on abortion and trying to apply it to several different things, trying to compare apples to oranges. It doesn't work that way....

Because Danoyse doesn't believe she should tell someone else what to do on the issue of abortion, doesn't mean that she will walk by someone being beaten, I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison. Which usually begins to happen when people run up against others that are as firm in their belief an opinion as you are....

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
Maya Angelou ...

So for anyone here who is pro-choice...i'm having trouble figuring something out.
We consider a fetus that is not 100% grown to NOT be considered life (hence abortion is OK) But...it's commonly accepted that if a micro-organism was found on Mars it's considered LIFE.

Why?

__________________
The line between good and evil does not lie between us and them, between the West and the rest, between Left and Right, between rich and poor. That fateful line runs down the middle of each of us, every human society, every individual.
― N.T. Wright, Surprised by Scripture: Engaging Contemporary Issues

So for anyone here who is pro-choice...i'm having trouble figuring something out.
We consider a fetus that is not 100% grown to NOT be considered life (hence abortion is OK) But...it's commonly accepted that if a micro-organism was found on Mars it's considered LIFE.

Why?

It's a double standard I find to be bull ****.

Most of my life I've been pro-life, but these past few years I'm on the Pro-choice side of things.

Only for three reasons.

1. Rape cases
2.Pregnancy could harm the mother.
3. I think we need smaller government and don't agree that the government OR the super religious conservatives should be able to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body.

Although I don't think someone else should tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body, abortions done for any other reasons than those three I listed, I don't agree with.

When I was pro-life, I got into an argument with a friend about people who use abortion if the birth control didn't work. Any way you look at it, that's immature and irresponsible. I know people love sex, want sex and will always have sex...but no one is forcing you to. Some people out there need to act like an adult and realize the consequences of their actions. My friend was saying, "well what about people who get pregnant and can't afford the baby. If they have the baby it's going to grow up with a poor lifestyle." Maybe they should have thought about that before sleeping with each other.

Also, this fool of a friend doesn't consider it a baby until it's actually born. So with him and I'm sure a number of others, abortion is ok at any stage of the pregnancy. To me that's barbaric and disgusting.

What are the chances the North Dakota Personhood bill will become law (that the voters will go for it as a ballot initiative now that it's passed the N.D. House and Senate)? If the ballot passes, how invulnerable is it to a challenge?

__________________That which is not Body, is no part of the Universe, and because the Universe is All, that which is not Body is Nothing and consequently Nowhere. Thomas Hobbes

You are the world you have created. And when you cease to exist, this world that you have created will also cease to exist. Cormac Mccarthy

Nothing isn't better or worse than anything. Nothing is just nothing. Arya Stark

Most of my life I've been pro-life, but these past few years I'm on the Pro-choice side of things.

Only for three reasons.

1. Rape cases
2.Pregnancy could harm the mother.
3. I think we need smaller government and don't agree that the government OR the super religious conservatives should be able to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body.

Although I don't think someone else should tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body, abortions done for any other reasons than those three I listed, I don't agree with.

When I was pro-life, I got into an argument with a friend about people who use abortion if the birth control didn't work. Any way you look at it, that's immature and irresponsible. I know people love sex, want sex and will always have sex...but no one is forcing you to. Some people out there need to act like an adult and realize the consequences of their actions. My friend was saying, "well what about people who get pregnant and can't afford the baby. If they have the baby it's going to grow up with a poor lifestyle." Maybe they should have thought about that before sleeping with each other.

Also, this fool of a friend doesn't consider it a baby until it's actually born. So with him and I'm sure a number of others, abortion is ok at any stage of the pregnancy. To me that's barbaric and disgusting.

My big sticking point with abortions is that I feel that if the abortion is voluntary (not due to rape, incest, or medical problems), then the person getting it should have to pay for it, not from government programs or insurance. They shouldn't be getting any government payment or help for something they could have controlled in the first place (don't have sex or use better contraceptive.)

My big sticking point with abortions is that I feel that if the abortion is voluntary (not due to rape, incest, or medical problems), then the person getting it should have to pay for it, not from government programs or insurance. They shouldn't be getting any government payment or help for something they could have controlled in the first place (don't have sex or use better contraceptive.)

So for anyone here who is pro-choice...i'm having trouble figuring something out.
We consider a fetus that is not 100% grown to NOT be considered life (hence abortion is OK) But...it's commonly accepted that if a micro-organism was found on Mars it's considered LIFE.

Why?

Just playing Devil's advocate here. Your answer is in your question. The fetus is not 100% formed and the microorganism is.

What are the chances the North Dakota Personhood bill will become law (that the voters will go for it as a ballot initiative now that it's passed the N.D. House and Senate)? If the ballot passes, how invulnerable is it to a challenge?

Not sure the rules in ND, but if it goes to vote I am guessing it doesn't pass(hell a Personhood bill didn't pass a vote in Mississippi and I consider ND a bit more progressive then Mississippi). If it doesn't have to go to public vote and gets passed in the house their I am guessing their will be enough lobby groups pushing them to do it.

My personal opinion is the religious right seem to want to push bills as far as they can in order to have somebody take it to the federal court so they can challenge the current laws regarding states rights on abortion

On a side note about abortion I saw a guy on TV describe the Republicans view on abortion. They aren't pro life they are pro birth(they can really care less about the life once it's born). I thought that was a pretty good observation, I always thought the biggest fault for the republicans view on abortion is not that they against it, it just seems they are either against or don't care about preventing unwanted pregnancy or what to do with the kids when they born. If somebody came up with a plan to

1. try prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place
2. find ways(programs) to take care of kids who are the products of unwanted pregnancies to have a fighting chance in life after they were born
3. Outlaw abortion

They could get a decent amount of support or at least a free pass from people who are indifferent on the issue(who see the Republicans current stance on abortion unrealistic or not really having a grasp on the issue in a big picture terms), but it seems like the Republicans are pushing for #3 and don't care about 1 and 2

There is a large group in the Republican party that goes totally against what you just posted SV Fan....A group really following American Individualism, is growing and is FAAAAAR from your descriptions of Republicans on many issues. So, really the general statements are just not true anymore....there are groups within the party that are gaining ground, but just seem to not be in your line of sight.

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
Maya Angelou ...

There is a large group in the Republican party that goes totally against what you just posted SV Fan....A group really following American Individualism, is growing and is FAAAAAR from your descriptions of Republicans on many issues. So, really the general statements are just not true anymore....there are groups within the party that are gaining ground, but just seem to not be in your line of sight.

What's the individualists' stance on abortion and the three points SV Fan listed?

There is a large group in the Republican party that goes totally against what you just posted SV Fan....A group really following American Individualism, is growing and is FAAAAAR from your descriptions of Republicans on many issues. So, really the general statements are just not true anymore....there are groups within the party that are gaining ground, but just seem to not be in your line of sight.

When you see Republican majority legislators and Governors doing an all abortion bill frenzy in many states, it's hard to think that the people you talk about having much say in the direction of the party. It would be nice to see candidates who run on the values you talk about and vote that way but it just seems other then the odd one it's a very small minority viewpoint and the christian right has their hands deep up Republicans butts pushing their agenda

I am guessing their is many people in the Republican party that hold a fiscally conservative(and actually mean it as apposed to giving lip service to it)/socially liberal viewpoint but chances are they have very little input to the direction the party is going or how they vote on a whole(in both regards)

Personally I think the Republican party would be smart to let the pro choice/pro gay marriage Republicans speak up more so they can say, see we are open to different points of view, we believe each person should represent their district but my guess is they are to fearful of the backlash from one of their bigger bases

When you see Republican majority legislators and Governors doing an all abortion bill frenzy in many states, it's hard to think that the people you talk about having much say in the direction of the party. It would be nice to see candidates who run on the values you talk about and vote that way but it just seems other then the odd one it's a very small minority viewpoint and the christian right has their hands deep up Republicans butts pushing their agenda

I am guessing their is many people in the Republican party that hold a fiscally conservative(and actually mean it as apposed to giving lip service to it)/socially liberal viewpoint but chances are they have very little input to the direction the party is going or how they vote on a whole(in both regards)

Personally I think the Republican party would be smart to let the pro choice/pro gay marriage Republicans speak up more so they can say, see we are open to different points of view, we believe each person should represent their district but my guess is they are to fearful of the backlash from one of their bigger bases

I hear them all the time, just finished a best selling book by one of them.....I'm not sure where you are looking....

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
Maya Angelou ...

Like I said I am looking at policies they are passing or trying to pass at State and Federal levels. Sure you may get the odd voice of reason here and their but generally it seems they muted by the others who have absolutely no issue voting for personhood bills or vaginal probes. I am fairly certain their is many Republicans who just shake their head and say whatever when voting for it because they don't want to speak out against the hand that feeds them but it would be nice if we had a small but vocal ground of Republicans who were poop disturbers speaking out against the parties stance on some issues like this(ones who are elected officials as opposed to talking heads who have nothing to lose)

I think the perfect example of this would be the Repeal Prop 9 letter a bunch of Republicans sent to the SCOTUS, something like 130 people involved in the Republican party in one form or another, past or present signed it, but of those 130 people a grand total of 2 who actually are currently in the House or Senate put their name on the sheet

Like I said I am looking at policies they are passing or trying to pass at State and Federal levels. Sure you may get the odd voice of reason here and their but generally it seems they muted by the others who have absolutely no issue voting for personhood bills or vaginal probes. I am fairly certain their is many Republicans who just shake their head and say whatever when voting for it because they don't want to speak out against the hand that feeds them but it would be nice if we had a small but vocal ground of Republicans who were poop disturbers speaking out against the parties stance on some issues like this(ones who are elected officials as opposed to talking heads who have nothing to lose)

I think the perfect example of this would be the Repeal Prop 9 letter a bunch of Republicans sent to the SCOTUS, something like 130 people involved in the Republican party in one form or another, past or present signed it, but of those 130 people a grand total of 2 who actually are currently in the House or Senate put their name on the sheet

What is funny is....I can say the EXACT SAME THING about Democrats....

Hmmmmm.....go figure??????

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
Maya Angelou ...

What is funny is....I can say the EXACT SAME THING about Democrats....

Hmmmmm.....go figure??????

I disagree, look at gun control bills. The far left position wants to restrict ammo, Harry Reid is blunt that it won't pass so he is not including it on the Bill and is getting flack for that statement. I don't see that kind of public disagreement with major Republican leaders and anytime a Republican Governor or Senate or House person makes a statement that might go against the party philosophy it seems like there PR person issues a statement 1 hour later they really didn't mean that or the quote was not taken in proper context.

Harry Reid is not some guy who writes a book about politics who might have had a position in politics at some point, he is the leader of the Senate.