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gee, that's kind of a shame. their "church" is called "reality experience." Especially Andy- he's worked in this field for over 20 years. A wise person might think that all his years of experience are valuable beyond compare. I do.

I could give one rip if you think my "opinions" are worthwhile or not. I also don't offer it because I like to read my own words, or blather on because of some inflated self-worth attitude. The net is ripe with unknowing opinion. The info I offer is strictly based on being on the inside of the hydraulic hose industry, knowing the specs that go into the construction of hoses, knowing how hoses are made, and what really does make a difference. Take it, leave it, I don't care.

I am not making an ad for S/S brake lines. Motorcycles used the cheapo synthetic rubber brake lines for decades, and we all accepted it as "standard". Once the FMVSS regs changed to allow the S/S brake lines, the bike makers jumped on it because they knew the S/S hoses were much better. I still say S/S brake hoses are one of the better upgrades you can make to your bike.

JohnR100RS, your repeated responses are confusing, since they seem to be in support of the choice for S/S braided lines, then you turn on that choice? Huh?

Ok, let me simplify it this way, based on what I know of hoses:
1. To replace OEM rubber brake hoses with stock OEM brake hoses costs as much if not more than S/S braided line. So why not upgrade if you are replacing the hoses.
2. OEM/stock hoses are only cheap on the salvage parts market, plus you can't be certain of what you're getting.
3. S/S hoses are a definite upgrade to rubber brake hoses.
4. Stock/OEM rubber brake hoses DO degrade over time, no arguement.

If you are satisifed with the feel of the brakes on your bike, and/or don't care to upgrade the performance and durability, then stay with the low grade OEM brake hoses. It has nothing to do with "being an ad for S/S brake hoses."

Ok, let me simplify it this way, based on what I know of hoses:
1. To replace OEM rubber brake hoses with stock OEM brake hoses costs as much if not more than S/S braided line. So why not upgrade if you are replacing the hoses.
2. OEM/stock hoses are only cheap on the salvage parts market, plus you can't be certain of what you're getting.
3. S/S hoses are a definite upgrade to rubber brake hoses.
4. Stock/OEM rubber brake hoses DO degrade over time, no arguement.

If you are satisifed with the feel of the brakes on your bike, and/or don't care to upgrade the performance and durability, then stay with the low grade OEM brake hoses. It has nothing to do with "being an ad for S/S brake hoses."

Point #2 and #4 rule out rubber hoses.
As far as oilheads go, original rubber hoses are a failure waiting to happen.
I have changed out quite a few now, some with complete brake failure (bulging line) and others with locked rotor (debris clogging fluid return)
Always has been the SS Braided retrofit.
It is also worth noting that F650's share this issue as well.

In discussion with Spiegler last order I was told they are selling BMW lines like crazy.

Even though the original hoses expand during brake application, it does not reduce the pressure applied in the brake caliper. Pressure is constant throughout the entire brake system, especially hydraulic brakes because there is almost no fluid "flow" in the system. Pressure is not "lost" or decreased, unless there is a physical conversion of pressure into work or heat. But, brake hoses that expand during application definitely reduce "feel and feedback". The "feel" becomes soft or mushy, to which we riders respond by applying more lever effort. The feedback issue is that the increased lever effort to overcome the mushy feel results in more brake application than needed, because we don't get a linear response from our lever input. In some low traction conditions, that increases the likelyhood of over-braking the wheel and skidding.

Brake hoses with minimal volumetric expansion, minimal swelling, during brake lever application give us much better feel for what the tire is doing on the surface. With that we can more easily make the minor immediate adjustmetns to fine tune our braking action. From that we improve our braking ability. THAT is the real gain of S/S braided brake hoses.

Even though the original hoses expand during brake application, it does not reduce the pressure applied in the brake caliper. Pressure is constant throughout the entire brake system, especially hydraulic brakes because there is almost no fluid "flow" in the system. Pressure is not "lost" or decreased, unless there is a physical conversion of pressure into work or heat. But, brake hoses that expand during application definitely reduce "feel and feedback". The "feel" becomes soft or mushy, to which we riders respond by applying more lever effort. The feedback issue is that the increased lever effort to overcome the mushy feel results in more brake application than needed, because we don't get a linear response from our lever input. In some low traction conditions, that increases the likelyhood of over-braking the wheel and skidding.

Brake hoses with minimal volumetric expansion, minimal swelling, during brake lever application give us much better feel for what the tire is doing on the surface. With that we can more easily make the minor immediate adjustmetns to fine tune our braking action. From that we improve our braking ability. THAT is the real gain of S/S braided brake hoses.

Now _that_ is a concise and definitive explanation of the advantages of braided teflon lines! Well said.
And just so you know, some of us around here appreciate your expertise and discourse on the matter.
Don't let the ingrates get to ya!

Even though the original hoses expand during brake application, it does not reduce the pressure applied in the brake caliper. Pressure is constant throughout the entire brake system, especially hydraulic brakes because there is almost no fluid "flow" in the system. Pressure is not "lost" or decreased, unless there is a physical conversion of pressure into work or heat. But, brake hoses that expand during application definitely reduce "feel and feedback". The "feel" becomes soft or mushy, to which we riders respond by applying more lever effort. The feedback issue is that the increased lever effort to overcome the mushy feel results in more brake application than needed, because we don't get a linear response from our lever input. In some low traction conditions, that increases the likelyhood of over-braking the wheel and skidding.

Brake hoses with minimal volumetric expansion, minimal swelling, during brake lever application give us much better feel for what the tire is doing on the surface. With that we can more easily make the minor immediate adjustmetns to fine tune our braking action. From that we improve our braking ability. THAT is the real gain of S/S braided brake hoses.

I went to Stainless Steel but I had them made locally , by company that I trust. You said to only go with a national well known company.

Since you're still failing pretty bad at this internet thing, I'm going to help you out by showing you the correct way to handle this situation.

First, after people give you advice, you're obligated to thank them, whether you decide to follow it or not. It's simply good manners to do so. As an example you could have said, "Thanks for the info fellas. I really appreciate it. I've decided to try my luck with a local guy. He's going to make me up some custom SS brake lines. I'll let you know how it goes."

Then, after you get the lines and are satisfied with the product, you can come back to the thread and say, "Hi again fellas. I just awanted to report back on my brake lines. After XXXX miles and XXXX months, I'm really happy with them. I had them made by XXXX company. They cost me $XXX. I highly recommend them. Give these guys a call if you're looking for a cheaper, high-quality alternative to the big manufacturers."

Since you're still failing pretty bad at this internet thing, I'm going to help you out by showing you the correct way to handle this situation.

First, after people give you advice, you're obligated to thank them, whether you decide to follow it or not. It's simply good manners to do so. As an example you could have said, "Thanks for the info fellas. I really appreciate it. I've decided to try my luck with a local guy. He's going to make me up some custom SS brake lines. I'll let you know how it goes."

Then, after you get the lines and are satisfied with the product, you can come back to the thread and say, "Hi again fellas. I just awanted to report back on my brake lines. After XXXX miles and XXXX months, I'm really happy with them. I had them made by XXXX company. They cost me $XXX. I highly recommend them. Give these guys a call if you're looking for a cheaper, high-quality alternative to the big manufacturers."

Once the FMVSS regs changed to allow the S/S brake lines, the bike makers jumped on it because they knew the S/S hoses were much better.

+1

BMW for example -- both brake and clutch lines.

I have a set of Spiegler lines I picked up at the MOA rally currently sitting on the shelf to go into my '04 R1150RT-P -- the only reason they haven't been installed is that I need to get the transmission up to Tom Cutter for rehab before I can start putting the bike back together.

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