OK, there is no God, whether it be pantheism, deism, monotheism or even polytheism. All inventions, you know that, I know that... the herd doesn't... still!

The subject title of this post is referring to a book called: There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind by Antony Flew.

I was at work, a part-time job I have at an Independent Cinema in Notting Hill, London. It's a temporary job I've had whilst I was studying and I will soon be changing for something more interesting. Anyways, the cinema is owned by a Christian Church called Kensington Temple, most of its herd are of African, Brazilian, Arabic and Asian origin, very few Caucasians. It's pastor is Collin Dye. The cinema itself shows regular released films, the church rarely interferes with what is shown (we have screened films like Bruno), the Kensington Temple just want to make money anyways. Moving on, some of the workers there are Christians; a few such as myself are Atheists or Agnostics. Now obviously I have kept my Satanism to myself, but I don't mind them knowing I'm an Atheist.

Now on occasion we have had discussions about atheism vs theism. Its almost unavoidable, its a small cinema with just 2 screens and 2 hour gaps in between screenings and very little else to do; so we get bored. Only a few months ago I decided to stop starting discussions of the sort simply because it leads to anger, frustration and we are in a working environment where we need to co-operate, plus it got us no where. On top of that I was being solipsistic, but its extremely hard to argue with my Christian work-colleagues on refusing to talk about it as they think they are intelligent enough to sustain a debate. Yet when they do start talking the obvious happens: slurred speech, unclear, limited vocabulary, worshiping of gaps, the bible says that, blah blah blah.

So today, the person I'm talking about is called Anthony, I arrived at work and he had the book in his hand that I mentioned above. Now myself and others at work have brought books of our own to read during the dull hours: The End Of Faith by Sam Harris, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, books on Fractals and Chaos Theory, Evolutionary Psychology, The Portable Atheist by Christopher Hitchens, etc. So he thought he would bring something else apart from the Holy Bible.

So eventually he walked over to me and another non-believer colleague of mine and enthusiastically he said: "Hey, listen to this, yeah?" He reads about 3-4 pages, not very well either and far too long. Now you can tell by the title where the book is going; and what Anthony had read was pretty much worshipping of gaps; science cannot explain that so therefore the default answer must be supernatural god... my teeth are grinding. I began with the help and support of my friend laying down the problems and counter-arguments we had stored in our brains; I mentioned monism vs dualism, the three different stances (physical, design and intentional) which Dan Dennett had conceptualized and the worshipping of gaps. Etc.

I should have stopped there, I tickled his psychic sucking, but I'm a masochist who enjoys challenging people to illicit an aggressive response. But I took a step further up and suddenly said:

"God is a Cock, he is a misogynistic, homophobic, racist and Christians are in desperate consolation for the Apocalypse to arrive to torture everyone else. You revel in it, you are sadists."

Now. Yeah. So. He was offended obviously... in fact he was so offended he replied: "I can't believe you said that to me, I should come over there and beat you up, I would kill you for saying that. Nah, don't talk to me."

Now, I know he won't, and I took advantage of that, I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim. But he went on to say just that: you wouldn't say that to a Muslim, you know I can go to Collin Dye (the Kensington Temple pastor) and to Ron (the manager of the cinema) and tell them what you said to me. To which I had said: to get me fired? He pretended not to glimmer at such a sadistic thing, hmm.

Let me first establish that this has been going on for quite some time, I have worked at that job for almost 2 years now. These conflicts have happened over the course of that time and today hit quite high; I wouldn't normally practice every little worry I have on these forums and flame. But these events have been accumulating and would be nice to get a second opinion. On par I kind of did this to test certain boundaries in a "safer" environment, to experience it first hand how dreadfully dangerous these extreme religious indoctrinations can make people say and do. I've read many of the Satanic books and they talk about just these specific situations and people; I understood it and knew it, I guess I just wanted to experience it more.

Sorry for the long post, but I felt it nice to get this off my chest, and really to see what you guys think: Did I go to far? Should I just completely stratify myself? At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?

Edited by PsychOff (01/29/1006:52 PM)

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They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

With illogical/irrational beings, never. Utter waste of time unless you are a masochist (see above).

I completely agree, funnily enough, after the incident I spoke to my supervisor about it and to my work-colleagues and we agreed that it is best not to even begin such discussions. In regards to masochism, I shall indulge in it elsewhere, thank you Nammu^^

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They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

I completely agree, funnily enough, after the incident I spoke to my supervisor about it and to my work-colleagues and we agreed that it is best not to even begin such discussions. In regards to masochism, I shall indulge in it elsewhere, thank you Nammu^^

The subject title of this post is referring to a book called: There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind by Antony Flew.

It's funny seeing so many zealots who get hard-ons over the Anthony Flew story and keep citing him, when in fact all he did was move from atheism to deism. There's still a huge leap from there to the monotheism that they're trying to push.

Quote:

Only a few months ago I decided to stop starting discussions of the sort simply because it leads to anger, frustration and we are in a working environment where we need to co-operate, plus it got us no where.

This is why I personally stick to a "no religion or politics in the workplace" rule. Debate is tempting, but ultimately not worth the hassles that come with having fragile shell co-workers.

Quote:

Did I go to far? Should I just completely stratify myself?

If you didn't say what you said, I'm sure the other guy would have eventually had his own similar attack to say, probably of the fire & brimstone variety. I can't imagine the argument ending any other way, because it seems like it was going nowhere. Still, that doesn't mean you handled it the best way. Besides now trying to fire you, he also has the impression on some level that he's won the argument.

Quote:

At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?

Although debate is fun and people who make false claims have to be put in their place, the rules change at the workplace. These are people you have to work with, and since religion is such a personal topic to many people, your working relationship can be affected when things get touchy. As a Satanist, your own well-being should take priority above fighting for a cause.

Plus, as others have pointed out, there is the "waste of time" aspect. People who believe in a deity often do so because they have a deep emotional investment attached to the belief. They're going to defend that emotional investment no matter what, and rationalize away any arguments that challenge it.

Religion is a crutch to these people, but when you try to kick out somebody's crutch, they don't start walking; they cling to the crutch tighter.

You say you're a masochist and you called them sadists. That's a great match for entertaining social intercourse- If you both know the limits. You need a safe word if you're going on with this sort of thing, especially at work. Masochism is frowned upon by many satanists, I say there's nothing wrong with it so long as you understand that it is masochism, you really get pleasure from it, and you come away unharmed. That includes getting fired, unless you want to get fired as many in your line of work do. You need never defend atheism, logic or rationality especially to those who (Great metaphor Old Pig!) won't be changing their minds anytime soon. "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." (Different pig, quote from Heinlein)

I have some youthful argue-lust in me and I'll debate with xtians from time to time when I feel the urge and when it's reasonably safe (Depending on how deep your masochist streak runs, you may wish to be unsafe either for the dangerous thrill or in pursuit of the greatest (and most unsatanic) masochistic climax- martyrdom) but recently and especially in public, I've found a new game that's even more fun:

I agree with them on every point, and one up them. If they say Christ died for me, I say "And for you too, good buddy! And for criminals and pedophiles and even Hitler!" If they say Evolution is fake, I say "Obviously, it's in the bible!" and expound on the lie of gravity- It's the love of Jesus that keeps my feet on the ground. It leads to one of two endings- They end up thinking "Man, some Christians are nuts," or they keep raising the stakes too, working themselves into a religious high. That means they leave with a happy new pal and a new assurance in what they believe.

I like that ending because I still, perhaps childishly, hate fundies. I fucking HATE them. I don't want to show them the light, I don't want to see them learn, I want to see them sink deeper and deeper into their own shit so I can laugh as they drown in it.

I should have stopped there, I tickled his psychic sucking, but I'm a masochist who enjoys challenging people to illicit an aggressive response

IMO, masochism is a bit like alcohol. It can be fun in moderation, but overindulgence can lead to some decidedly unpleasant consequences.

From your first post alone, you've demonstrated two things: First, that you are aware of your masochism, and are in control of it (you indulge it as you choose, rather than letting it compel you). Second, that you can both recognize your own mistakes and learn from them--something many people cannot do. Both mark you as self-aware and intelligent.

Meanwhile, your God-loving coworkers can't even get it through their heads that their religion is a myth. They occupy no positions of political power, and cannot communicate their ideas intelligently. Therefore, they pose no grave threat to rationalization, logic, science and atheism. Let them sink deeper and deeper into their own shit and laugh as they drown in it, as Delta so delightfully put it.

Originally Posted By: PsychOff

I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim.

I'm also curious as to this remark. I used to live on a street where most of my neighbors were Muslims, but most of their children, who I went to school with, were "Americanized", and most of the adults kept to themselves and only spoke English when it suited them. Consequently, religion never really came up. I've heard that Britain has seen an increase in the Muslim population in recent years, and that some of them are quite militant. Perhaps you could elaborate on this?

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Let no sun set which has not shone upon your advance.

Sorry for the delayed response, thank you for the replies and I'll try answer all your questions:

Originally Posted By: MALFORM

Originally Posted By: PsychOff

I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim.

Why not?

At that point, I guess I tried to calm him down, he was shaking with anger and it's not that I wouldn't think differently of any other invented Gods in the plethora of religions. I was simply attempting to alleviate his anger to avoid his threat of harming me.

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Originally Posted By: Bill_M

Originally Posted By: PsychOff

Did I go to far? Should I just completely stratify myself?

If you didn't say what you said, I'm sure the other guy would have eventually had his own similar attack to say, probably of the fire & brimstone variety. I can't imagine the argument ending any other way, because it seems like it was going nowhere. Still, that doesn't mean you handled it the best way. Besides now trying to fire you, he also has the impression on some level that he's won the argument.

You're right, my friend beside me would have eventually probably ended it in some way or another, and most likely in a better way, nonetheless, it would have ended with us irritated. I knew right from the get go this wasn't going to lead anywhere significant, I guess part of me wanted to test and experience it myself first hand and plus to mark an end to the start of such discussions indefinitely whilst we're working there; make it abundantly clear that it is going nowhere for us. But you're right, he did walk away thinking he won because I hurt his feelings and disrespected him. He won't be able to fire me I know that, even if he can it wouldn't have a detrimental effect on me, it just be a nuisance I'd rather avoid. I'll be seeing him tomorrow again since the incident, so I'm intrigued how he will respond around me. I can imagine how he will attempt to be apologetic and ask for forgiveness and then expecting me to apologize in return; forgetting that he threatened me by beating me up and killing me which is against the law here.

Originally Posted By: Bill_M

Originally Posted By: PsychOff

At what point do I step in to defend rationalization, logic, science and atheism?

Although debate is fun and people who make false claims have to be put in their place, the rules change at the workplace. These are people you have to work with, and since religion is such a personal topic to many people, your working relationship can be affected when things get touchy. As a Satanist, your own well-being should take priority above fighting for a cause.

Plus, as others have pointed out, there is the "waste of time" aspect. People who believe in a deity often do so because they have a deep emotional investment attached to the belief. They're going to defend that emotional investment no matter what, and rationalize away any arguments that challenge it.

Religion is a crutch to these people, but when you try to kick out somebody's crutch, they don't start walking; they cling to the crutch tighter.

I fully agree with you Bill_M on your points including that debating is fun, but in a work place they don't mix well; and me and my other work-colleagues agree. It is a waste of time, my Atheist friend, a different work colleague of mine who was not working that day found it hilarious I said that to Anthony the Christian. He himself had similar "debates" with this individual; always ending nowhere. We came to a mutual agreement; never again for them. This said individual cannot debate... he imagines he can.

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Originally Posted By: Delta

You say you're a masochist and you called them sadists. That's a great match for entertaining social intercourse- If you both know the limits. You need a safe word if you're going on with this sort of thing, especially at work. Masochism is frowned upon by many satanists, I say there's nothing wrong with it so long as you understand that it is masochism, you really get pleasure from it, and you come away unharmed. That includes getting fired, unless you want to get fired as many in your line of work do. You need never defend atheism, logic or rationality especially to those who (Great metaphor Old Pig!) won't be changing their minds anytime soon. "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." (Different pig, quote from Heinlein)

I have some youthful argue-lust in me and I'll debate with xtians from time to time when I feel the urge and when it's reasonably safe (Depending on how deep your masochist streak runs, you may wish to be unsafe either for the dangerous thrill or in pursuit of the greatest (and most unsatanic) masochistic climax- martyrdom) but recently and especially in public, I've found a new game that's even more fun:

I agree with them on every point, and one up them. If they say Christ died for me, I say "And for you too, good buddy! And for criminals and pedophiles and even Hitler!" If they say Evolution is fake, I say "Obviously, it's in the bible!" and expound on the lie of gravity- It's the love of Jesus that keeps my feet on the ground. It leads to one of two endings- They end up thinking "Man, some Christians are nuts," or they keep raising the stakes too, working themselves into a religious high. That means they leave with a happy new pal and a new assurance in what they believe.

I like that ending because I still, perhaps childishly, hate fundies. I fucking HATE them. I don't want to show them the light, I don't want to see them learn, I want to see them sink deeper and deeper into their own shit so I can laugh as they drown in it.

In regards to my masochism, I'm not full-blown-desiring-for-dominant-pain masochist; but fore-play masochism, just want to clarify that and by no means I try to gain martydom. I understand it; I actually recently discovered I have a slight masochistic tendency whilst reading TSW. But I enjoyed what you had to say Delta, thank you. I know how to tend to my masochism healthily and I enjoyed your pig quip and play-the-agreeing-game and work them up into a religious stupor. As I mentioned earlier, I'm young and full of come and have the urge to argue and I think I pushed the envelope further this time round to fully experience first hand at comprehending what Anton LaVey and Peter H. Gilmore were talking about concerning such religious zealots, through the use of observation.

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Originally Posted By: SteelAndStone

Originally Posted By: PsychOff

I should have stopped there, I tickled his psychic sucking, but I'm a masochist who enjoys challenging people to illicit an aggressive response

From your first post alone, you've demonstrated two things: First, that you are aware of your masochism, and are in control of it (you indulge it as you choose, rather than letting it compel you). Second, that you can both recognize your own mistakes and learn from them--something many people cannot do. Both mark you as self-aware and intelligent.

Meanwhile, your God-loving coworkers can't even get it through their heads that their religion is a myth. They occupy no positions of political power, and cannot communicate their ideas intelligently. Therefore, they pose no grave threat to rationalization, logic, science and atheism. Let them sink deeper and deeper into their own shit and laugh as they drown in it, as Delta so delightfully put it.

Thank you, SteelAndStone for your words, glad to hear I don't come across as self-deluded. Thank you for reminding me that it is not them who pose the threat, it is us!

Originally Posted By: SteelAndStone

Originally Posted By: PsychOff

I certainly wouldn't have said that to a Muslim.

I'm also curious as to this remark. I used to live on a street where most of my neighbors were Muslims, but most of their children, who I went to school with, were "Americanized", and most of the adults kept to themselves and only spoke English when it suited them. Consequently, religion never really came up. I've heard that Britain has seen an increase in the Muslim population in recent years, and that some of them are quite militant. Perhaps you could elaborate on this?

In Britain, many Muslims have immigrated here to our shores. Many have good jobs and keep to themselves and essentially have been "Britishized". Very few pose a dangerous threat and Britain keeps a close eye on who it lets in, better than America does (that is not meant to be a derogative remark, just stating fact). They protest, we protest back but that's about it, media exaggerates and the Daily Mail loves it. They learn English fairly quickly here, many open Kebab fast food restaurants, some successful, some less so. Some become Taxi drivers, some come to study. I don't know where you stand politically and that is obviously a self-preference to Satanists, but generally I don't mind immigrants. We even have a famous Iranian middle-class UK educated comedian: Omid Djalili, a fat, short bloke who you will most likely have seen in hollywood films such as The Gladiator and The Mummy. He's a Baha'i but I think he's really an Atheist; as you know there is a greater percentage of Atheists in the UK than the USA. Hope that answers your question, SteelAndStone.^^

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Thank you all^^

_________________________
They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.

*Laughs*Thank you, Nemo. I got the idea, clear and straight to the point. I will apply that effectively immediately. I never saw it from that perspective before. I always saw myself as an I-theist but not expanded as such, only to my own creative goals. I guess I still got a lot to discover about my "hidden powers" as a God.Cheers^^

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They say the Light brings you truth and the Darkness only serves to tempt you;I say the Light blinds you from the truth and the Darkness forces you to see, smell, listen, feel and think better.