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*shrug* Maybe, but I haven't found that visualization particularly helpful.

Katherine

I have to say that "imposing my will on my partners" has been a singularly ineffective way of looking at what I do. No one "imposes his will" on my friend Robert Deppe as far as I can see. On the other hand, he can be persuaded to fall down if one listens to him telling you how he'd like to do so.

For someone of just over 100 pounds, I think "imposing the will" is just about the most useless way to think about your Aikido. Doesn't even work for me at over 250 lbs.

In the larger picture, I don't think any of my teachers ever talked about "imposing ones will" on anyone.

People have given some great reasons why they are searching for "internal strength", and some people have given great reasons why they aren't searching outside of their Aikido practice for "internal strength".

I don't feel I can add anything to the debate at this level, however I am interested to know peoples thoughts as to where the line gets drawn in the sand in the search to be greater, stronger, more power and ability. If people feel there is a line at all.

I am reminded of an essay by Masahilo Nakazono Sensei, I think it is entitled "About Power", from My Past Way of Budo and Other Essays.

In it Nakazono Sensei describes as his training progressed, when he used Kiai strange things started to happen, lightbulbs exploding, large pockets of air forming under the mats which could only be pushed down with ki and not just pushed down with physical strength. Nakazono Sensei describes how he felt that he could have learned to control this power but chose not to pursue it, and outright rejected it.

In Esoteric Shingon Buddhism I have also read that as mediation progresses to the higher levels and the consciousness transcends to higher states that super human powers can manifest, but within the teaching it is critical that they not be pursued.

In both cases it is sighted that a desire of chasing power is ultimately detrimental to the real human quest. It bolsters the ego and, as has been said suggested, can distort and corrupt ones life. Hasn't this been repeated in history a myriad times? People acting out of a desire of power and control. Isn't this also central to Aikido philosophically? Sadly I feel that Demetrio's desire to "impose his will" over others highlights the dangers of such a quest.

Now I am not saying that IP is wrong, or bad, or searching for it is not a potentially good and positive thing to do. I am however questioning that maybe in the broader debate perhaps we are missing something, once somebody has acquired this strength then what, what next?

I think intrinsically we already all know the answer to this question. The search, everybody is on a endless quest for is not power, but for something much greater, Truth. I just hope that whilst we (myself included) are all searching around for strength and power that we don't get too distracted and forget the real search for Truth.

In it Nakazono Sensei describes as his training progressed, when he used Kiai strange things started to happen, lightbulbs exploding, large pockets of air forming under the mats which could only be pushed down with ki and not just pushed down with physical strength. Nakazono Sensei describes how he felt that he could have learned to control this power but chose not to pursue it, and outright rejected it.

I think that the "internal strength" under discussion here has really nothing to do with any of the kinds of things above. It is a different kind of body usage and conditioning.

In it Nakazono Sensei describes as his training progressed, when he used Kiai strange things started to happen, lightbulbs exploding, large pockets of air forming under the mats which could only be pushed down with ki and not just pushed down with physical strength. Nakazono Sensei describes how he felt that he could have learned to control this power but chose not to pursue it, and outright rejected it.

Cowabunga. That sounds like some sort of acid trip that might have happened in Keith Richards' hotel room. In terms of internal power, I've never heard of such a thing.

Quote:

Now I am not saying that IP is wrong, or bad, or searching for it is not a potentially good and positive thing to do. I am however questioning that maybe in the broader debate perhaps we are missing something, once somebody has acquired this strength then what, what next?

Next comes old age, your muscles and normal strength atrophy and so you wind up with an investment (IP) that really pays off in terms of quality of life. As Gozo Shioda mentions in "Aikido Shugyo", these things are considered to be an investment for old age. If it was all as powerful as you indicated there wouldn't be any need for techniques, etc.... but since a good and complete martial-art is needed to go with the IP, I'd suggest that the 'power' aspects not be overstated.

Note how the whole body moves when he releases, think about how a dantien is part of that movement, and so on. While that might explode a light-bulb from shaking a room, it's not like lightning bolts from the hand of Zeus. Note, too, that Chen Yu is probably around 5'3" or 5'4", so don't mistake this for the typical "big strong guy demonstrates internal power and is awesome". Figuring that Ueshiba was about 5-feet tall and understanding that he had a more linear version of this type of power, you can see where IP certainly has it's place.

Figuring that Ueshiba was about 5-feet tall and understanding that he had a more linear version of this type of power, you can see where IP certainly has it's place.

I don't doubt for one second that what you say isn't true, or that internal power doesn't have a great deal of usefulness and validity. And I am not here to promote a dead Sensei I never even met. Although I think as you can see from the clip, Nakazono Sensei is about as grounded and connected as could be, and "internal power" (not necessarily manifesting in the same way as the Sensei in your clip) but it seems apparent that whatever it is he clearly had it in abundance.

Again I am more referring to the those who wish to gain such powers and strength in order to control others, and that this is potentially a dangerous path (Which you could say equally for a myriad of things). And asking the question where do we draw the line in our desire for power and control.

Modern man tries to impose his will onto all sorts of things, even nature, perhaps ultimately to his own demise. This is not Aikido, this is not living in accordance with the way, it is not truth.

Couldn't you at least give him a teensy-weensy eleventh dan out of the goodness of your heart?

Quote:

Modern man tries to impose his will onto all sorts of things, even nature, perhaps ultimately to his own demise. This is not Aikido, this is not living in accordance with the way, it is not truth.

Ermmmmmm.... that's pretty fraught with Christian symbolism, so I'll pass. I think you're missing the fact that the "power" is usually used in conjunction with the opponent's power; thus the opponent's power/attack is used to defeat him.

that's pretty fraught with Christian symbolism, so I'll pass. I think you're missing the fact that the "power" is usually used in conjunction with the opponent's power; thus the opponent's power/attack is used to defeat him

Our justapostion is getting us nowhere. I offer you my respect and I absolutely understand that "opponent's power/attack is used to defeat him". I just don't like the connotations of control and power over others, as I see it serves no real purpose to the true purpose of Budo.

Mary and I trace our lineage back to Tohei thru Maruyama Shuji sensei. I don't know what the Aikikai considers real Aikido and, to be truthful, I don't care. We learned Ki development as an integral part of our Aikido from Maruyama sensei and, though we are now organizationally independent, continue to teach it to our students.

I agree with that. I'm not the least concerned with what aikikai thinks is or is not aikido.

However, Mary's question was "Why go outside aikido?" and I'm saying that from the mainline point of view, she's already outside of aikido...so......

And if it's alright to go "outside aikido" in that regard, why not go on and find internal power?

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote:

Understand though, training to become relaxed and strong (correct feeling) is only a part of Aikido for us. We don't train solely to become the strongest people on the planet. We also don't judge people who choose to emphasize internal strength development as the core of their practice. Our view is that people are free to choose their own paths and we wish them well no matter the direction they take. We believe that Aikido should be inclusive in the extreme; a very large umbrella with room under it for the woo woos, the bone breakers and everyone in between.

I don't see where the question comes in, then. Personally, I don't see "aikido" as any kind of big rope that has to include every kind of goo-goo-woo-woo-hee-ha-hoo. The bone breakers are wrong. The dive-bunnies and Senseis who insist that uke must fall no matter what kind of limp response nage gives are also wrong. Aikido flows in the middle path--no hurting training partners, no falling for ridiculous technique. In my opinion.

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote:

Ya know David, at the risk of being branded a heretic, I think if folks stopped trying so hard to become the next Ueshiba and concentrate on developing the Aikido that naturally emerges from their own practice they'd find that there's a lot more there than they think.

I've said it before: my aikido has never failed me. And Dan's proclamations notwithstanding, I don't think I can reach (much less surpass) Morihei Ueshiba's level. Mochizuki never saw himself as having reached that level. So that's not my aim. However, I do believe that the only way I can progress beyond what I found through technical training is to move to internal training, to work not by outer "aikido-looking" form (which even the weakest of people can present) but to work from an inner movement that expresses technique spontaneously. I'm feeling very refreshed an invigorated by this pursuit.

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote:

Here'a a question for you: With all of Ueshiba's direct students internalizing only a portion of the teachings how do you even define "the whole art" or "the real art"?

Mochizuki Sensei said, "Nobody does Ueshiba's aikido but Morihei Ueshiba." And by that, he meant not Kisshomaru, not Tohei, not himself. But there is an essence there that, if we connect with it, it is aikido and we each have our own.

However, in violating any of the character of that essence (violence or limpicity), that's "going outside aikido" by trying to make aikido what we think it ought to be. And I have been convinced that internal power (and Mike identifies Tohei as a major figure in this) is a part of the essence of the real and whole art of aikido.

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote:

[rampant supposition] I believe that Ueshiba really wanted Aikido to spread world wide. It's possible that he realized that if Aikido became a koryu like art that its dissemination would always remain limited and secretive. To prevent that from happening he purposely made sure that no one got the full monte as he understood it. That is to say the fracturing of Usehiba's Aikido into the convoluted tree of interpretations that exists today was planned from the outset in order to appeal to the widest possible audience. [/rampant supposition]

I think Ellis' description of Morihei's seeing himself as a shaman and all the rest of us as people stirring the energy pot to support him is probably closest to the truth of what Morihei wanted "us" to be doing. He apparently saw early on that his real art was not being passed on and I think he also understood that very, very few people were ever going to approach that because it was so completely and idiosyncratically his own. He definitely loved Mochizuki as a friend as well as the son he wished he'd had. And he didn't give Tohei judan because he didn't like him. And there was Saito and little Shioda, the human tornado. Morihei loved them all and appreciated and criticized each of them for their own characters and short-comings as he saw them, but still none of them really did quite what Morihei truly did. I think he just realized, too, that human nature and the Japanese character demands that a strong individual make his own way, just as he broke away from Sokaku Takeda, who loved and criticized him. If you help someone become strong, you have to accept that eventually, they will go their own way. So I just think the fracturing and splintering of aikido was unavoidable, but that, by adhering to the real core principles something does live on.

Best to y'all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

However, Mary's question was "Why go outside aikido?" and I'm saying that from the mainline point of view, she's already outside of aikido...so......

And if it's alright to go "outside aikido" in that regard, why not go on and find internal power?

It's totally alright. She asked the question with no implication that it's somehow wrong to do so. She wanted to illicit responses because she's interested in peoples' thoughts on the subject as a whole.

Quote:

David Orange wrote:

Mochizuki Sensei said, "Nobody does Ueshiba's aikido but Morihei Ueshiba." And by that, he meant not Kisshomaru, not Tohei, not himself. But there is an essence there that, if we connect with it, it is aikido and we each have our own.

Totally agree.

Quote:

David Orange wrote:

And I have been convinced that internal power (and Mike identifies Tohei as a major figure in this) is a part of the essence of the real and whole art of aikido.

Can't argue with that. It's why we continue to put major emphasis on Ki development in our training.

In Esoteric Shingon Buddhism I have also read that as mediation progresses to the higher levels and the consciousness transcends to higher states that super human powers can manifest, but within the teaching it is critical that they not be pursued.

In both cases it is sighted that a desire of chasing power is ultimately detrimental to the real human quest. It bolsters the ego and, as has been said suggested, can distort and corrupt ones life. Hasn't this been repeated in history a myriad times? People acting out of a desire of power and control. Isn't this also central to Aikido philosophically? Sadly I feel that Demetrio's desire to "impose his will" over others highlights the dangers of such a quest.

I was recently discussing my sudden awareness of my own ki with a good friend and he gave me a surprising outline of yoga that closely parallels what I experienced. And he added that after a certain amount of study and seeking, one would suddenly find that he could manifest "strange powers" (called Siddhi, I believe), more or less along the lines of being immoveable, being able to propel others a big distance, and so on, much like the results of internal power training. But as you said, the teachings warned that when you begin to experience these Siddhi powers, you must not pursue them because then you get side-tracked into them and can lose the way in focus on the powers. If you avoided this, you could reach greater and greater depths of understanding, moving toward Wisdom.

And in the internal power circles, it has also been suggested that the "power" comes spontaneously when the body has been properly conditioned and disciplined. And it has also been said that these skills are only a side-benefit of the training.

Reading this thread, I had a sudden insight about what seems to frighten Mary and some others: that we're seeking really great strength, and they're associating that with great "muscular" strength and the kind of power that goes along with that. This gave me a sudden laugh because what we're seeking is not more muscular power, but the power to do more with less muscle! We want to be unaffected by an opponent's power while remaining completely relaxed and unexerted! We're not talking wild-man hell-raising burning-red eyes and uncontrolled frenzy. We're talking about calm, smiling, amused, relaxed, funny absorption of all power that comes against us, leaving us unexerted, unstrained and completely free to move no matter what kind of load comes upon us. When done properly, it feels like we're not doing anything at all, yet nothing can hold us back or divert us.

And I think that's really the essence of what amazed people about Morihei Ueshiba and first made people want to be like him.

The general problem is that when we signed up to learn to be like Ueshiba, we weren't given this ability to be unexertedly free: we were given techniques which sidetracked us into learning their complex twists and turns and placement of the feet and how does he attack an did he attack right and is he trying to mess up our technique, and do you start with this foot first or that foot first and on and on in a way that really takes us down the rabbit hole. The only thing keeping that pursuit at all relevant to aiki would be learning to keep our balance and to move without conflicting with the opponent's power.

I decided right after I left Mochizuki Sensei's dojo that aikido was being taught "backward," much as George Ledyard said a few posts back. My answer was an overview of the human body first, to make it freely moving. But because my view of aikido meant always moving and never letting uke's weight settle on me, my method was trained completely without loading.

Now I can see all that in a new light and while I still believe that aikido is taught backward and that we must begin with making the body free, I understand now that we must learn to keep the body free and unexerted even when a great load comes upon us.

As for Demetrio's comment, I'm sure he's not talking about any kind of world domination or even dominating other individuals in a power sense, but in the way Morihei said "Aiki is blending with another person in order to make them do what I want them to do." But that blending means going along with what they want to do to bring them back to where you want them to be: in harmony. Just to force them egotistically to go where we want them to is not aikido, but to lead them back to where we want them to be--in their right relation to life--that's really worthy and I think that is the essence of Truth as you hope to see it.

Quote:

Keith Gates wrote:

Now I am not saying that IP is wrong, or bad, or searching for it is not a potentially good and positive thing to do. I am however questioning that maybe in the broader debate perhaps we are missing something, once somebody has acquired this strength then what, what next?

Well, next is to cultivate it and use it to build up good people to make a better society and life for us all.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

Rob I am NOT saying that your training is of that muscle type - but I also wonder about going in to train w/ the mindset of imposing will and wonder how that affects breathing, intent and body use versus a mindset of, say, "where does uke tell me he wants to go?" or "where can we go together?"

It is not a training methodology but an end state.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Our justapostion is getting us nowhere. I offer you my respect and I absolutely understand that "opponent's power/attack is used to defeat him". I just don't like the connotations of control and power over others, as I see it serves no real purpose to the true purpose of Budo.

Well, Keith, the true purpose of budo, as Morihei explained it, is "to stop violence." And that means the violence in our own hearts, yes, but it also means the ability to stop a strong man from hurting the weak people in his path. Which means having the ability to control a strong man. That's the real meaning of budo, along with controlling ourselves.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

But as you said, the teachings warned that when you begin to experience these Siddhi powers, you must not pursue them because then you get side-tracked into them and can lose the way in focus on the powers. If you avoided this, you could reach greater and greater depths of understanding, moving toward Wisdom.

David

always curious of why folks don't want to focus on powers or believed that powers and wisdom are mutually exclusive. strange creatures we human. afraid of our own shadows.

Can't argue with that. It's why we continue to put major emphasis on Ki development in our training.

So I don't see it as "going outside aikido" if we learn more about it. It's fun, humbling, uplifting, funny and inspiring like nothing I've felt in aikido since 1975—when I was reading "Aikido in Daily Life".

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

Well, Keith, the true purpose of budo, as Morihei explained it, is "to stop violence." And that means the violence in our own hearts, yes, but it also means the ability to stop a strong man from hurting the weak people in his path. Which means having the ability to control a strong man. That's the real meaning of budo, along with controlling ourselves

I don't disagree, but would note that it is not that we use power and control to dissipate the situation it is more as Mike suggested; that the force and aggression of the opponent is what ultimately results in the futility of their own actions. We as Aikidoka just want to lend a guiding hand.

As we know this takes an immense amount of skill physically, emotionally and spiritually, much more than it if would if we were simply using our own power and control to defeat them.

Reading this thread, I had a sudden insight about what seems to frighten Mary and some others: that we're seeking really great strength, and they're associating that with great "muscular" strength and the kind of power that goes along with that. This gave me a sudden laugh because what we're seeking is not more muscular power, but the power to do more with less muscle! We want to be unaffected by an opponent's power while remaining completely relaxed and unexerted! We're not talking wild-man hell-raising burning-red eyes and uncontrolled frenzy. We're talking about calm, smiling, amused, relaxed, funny absorption of all power that comes against us, leaving us unexerted, unstrained and completely free to move no matter what kind of load comes upon us. When done properly, it feels like we're not doing anything at all, yet nothing can hold us back or divert us.

For those who find the pursuit of power worrisome, the kind of power you describe is at least as fraught with danger as the muscular kind, and probably more so.

For those who find the pursuit of power worrisome, the kind of power you describe is at least as fraught with danger as the muscular kind, and probably more so.

Katherine

Hello Ms. Derbyshire
I don't think so.
Power is expressed in aikido to invade and displace (irimi) or in evasion.all the time. It is the "quality" of that power that is being debated.

What if you can do both at the same time instantly and the result is that there power is neutralized?
What if their force was mirrored back at them when they contact you?
What if their force, directed at you, could also be continually sent one degree off...to where you willed it to go. They would think they were continuing with their effort but you guided it to a place of your determination...without you hoping around and evading their power?.
What if you could do it...at speed outside of traditional arts with no cooperattion?

I think that power, real power,must be present in order to do the soft arts, in order to make the softest controlling aiki.
Without IP/ aiki....no one can produce the aikido of the founder.
.
What if many are finding that when facing certain people with an unusual type of power; they are steadfastly undone by them.
I respectfully submit to you that something very substantial must be going on, for there is no way...no way you are going to get the type of experienced professionals I am meeting to change the path of their training this late in life unless it was major league.
As one Shihan said to me with a gleam in his eye.
"This is the stuff I went to Japan to find."
Another Shihan
"You don't understand, Dan, You may be flying on casual (his words) but this has changed everything for me."
I'm not trying to sell it...you really can't, they have to do the work. It is after all just more hard work!!. But, it sells itself because many martial artists see the practical and pragmatic use in whatever their work is.
All the best
Dan

What if you can do both at the same time instantly and the result is that there power is neutralized?
What if their force was mirrored back at them when they contact you?
What if their force, directed at you, could also be continually sent one degree off...to where you willed it to go. They would think they were continuing with their effort but you guided it to a place of your determination...without you hoping around and evading their power?.
What if you could do it...at speed outside of traditional arts with no cooperattion?

I think that power, real power,must be present in order to do the soft arts, in order to make the softest controlling aiki.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that there is no connection between personal character and the ability to develop that kind of power: it is entirely possible to have a "Darth Vader" of internal power, and many people are wary of the pursuit of power in any form.

But as you said, the teachings warned that when you begin to experience these Siddhi powers, you must not pursue them because then you get side-tracked into them and can lose the way in focus on the powers. If you avoided this, you could reach greater and greater depths of understanding, moving toward Wisdom.
David

always curious of why folks don't want to focus on powers or believed that powers and wisdom are mutually exclusive. strange creatures we human. afraid of our own shadows.

I think the warning was more in reveling in the power and chasing it for its own end, rather than a warning against power. If you gain that kind of power and chase after it (focus solely on making it better) because you like having it, then you miss out on other training to take you beyond that. Look to Ueshiba who in his early years was described like being an electric shock when grabbed but in later years was ghosty soft. If you focus on the power and like the "electric-shock" type of skill, then you won't get to the ghosty part.

The phrase, you have to give up strength to gain strength didn't always apply to just physical muscle strength.