Two very different candidates with very different worldviews, it's hard to know what the focus will be tonight, as the VP debates do not have an official topic. It is speculated that, among other things, Paul Ryan's budget will come up, as well as "the 47%", $716 billion and possibly even the recent attacks in Benghazi.

70m people watched the debate in 2008. I have a feeling the numbers will be far lower as there is no Sarah Palin involved. Is the country interested in the Veep debate this time out? It will be interesting to see what impact it has.posted by cell divide at 5:33 PM on October 11, 2012

Paul Ryan has been such a darling of the right, but he's spent too long in the Fox News bubble of deferential treatment. It will be interesting to see what happens tonight.posted by ambrosia at 5:36 PM on October 11, 2012

Feeling cautiously optimistic about this debate. Hopefully Biden can staunch the bleeding and give the Romney campaign some wounds as well. I just want a news cycle or two that isn't about Romney beating Obama. Slow or reverse the news cycle and give some breathing room for the Romney bounce to return to previous patterns.posted by vuron at 5:37 PM on October 11, 2012

Watch for the moment when Biden pulls out the pink sheet for his beloved IROC-Z and challenge Ryan to a drag. Paul Ryan claims he can do a 12 sec quarter mile in his mom's Camrey. This should be awesome.posted by humanfont at 5:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

There is a lot of other stuff on tonight. I'll be interested to see how many viewers this gets. If Ryan's tell matches Romney's, Ryan will come out the way he supposes Biden will - very aggressive. I hope Biden son's Ryan. Robert Reich suggested Biden be cheerfully aggressive, but I think playtime is about over, and people want to see these lies and non-positions called out for the ridiculousness they represent.

Ryan will spend a lot of time saying pretty much nothing substantive. Every time Biden tries to pin him down on the numbers and specifics, I think Ryan will do just like Mitt did, and say "no, that's not it". On Medicare, on the budget, on the tax cuts - Biden may try to pin Ryan down to everything he's stood for, but Ryan is just going to not commit to a single thing. I think Biden should figure out a way to press Ryan on one issue, until Ryan is forced to answer, or look horrible. It's 90 minutes - if they start out on the Budget, Biden should just make him commit to specifics. Biden should be serious and attack. I certainly think Ryan is going to do so, while trying to take no positions whatsoever, because that's the last thing these republicans want to do is reveal what their positions are. "Generic Republican" did better in the test polls early on, and wouldn't you know it, that is exactly what Romney-Ryan is trying to run as.posted by cashman at 5:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm reluctant to watch or follow along here because I don't want to hear anybody freaking out again about debate performances.

I mean, seriously, if enough people are going to ignore all the shit that has gone down in the past year and just vote on the basis of "wow, that dude really told those lies effectively for one night," our society deserves what it gets.posted by Joey Michaels at 5:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [47 favorites]

If there's anyone left on the internet who still hasn't seen this, enjoy.

Biden needs to speak to working class and middle class voters and get his own personal tragedy into the debate at least once. If he can do both the polling should be really positive. If he can get Ryan to defend his privatize entitlements plan as well that would be great but I imagine Ryan will try to evade that.posted by vuron at 5:42 PM on October 11, 2012

I know, right? Where did this "Ryan is the greatest looking White House candidate since John F. Kennedy" come from? To me he looks like central casting for a serial killer. He is less attractive than Romney! In kissability factor:

Probably just so Ryan can turn around and pretend it's a grievous insult to refer to him as Mr.posted by feloniousmonk at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh it's a female moderator? Ryan's going to have a hard time holding back his mansplaining tendencies. I anticipate at least one response of him talking down to the moderator.posted by vuron at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

The peddle-bullshit-with-a-smile strategy?posted by flippant at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012

My guess is that unless Ryan passes out, the media will declare him the winner.posted by drezdn at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

The Biden/Ryan showdown is upon us.

I read that as "The Biden/Ryan hoedown is upon us" and became far more excited than was seemly.

I also hope (albeit perhaps naively) that the fact checkers do better this time. Last time they were like "If we assume that Mitt Romney is telling the truth, then what he's saying is true. We therefore count this as an Obama lie."posted by Flunkie at 5:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole reason Paul Ryan was added to the ticket to give him more cache in the 2016 election? The election isn't seen as too likely to go to Romney in most any scenario, but they want Paul Ryan to be the prettyboy who ascends to the throne of the GOP and brings the sexy. They sort of tried the same thing with Palin, but that went to hell REAL fast when she started talking.posted by mediocre at 5:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

In my dreams, the last five minutes of Ryan's portion of the debate goes something like this.

And we're doing Libya at the first question.posted by winna at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2012

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole reason Paul Ryan was added to the ticket to give him more cache in the 2016 election?

Two failed VP candidates have gone on to become President since they started running on the same ticket back in the early 1800s. There's no cache in being on a losing team.posted by Etrigan at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm sitting at O'Hare and a guy just walked by me wearing a Gary Johnson button. I'm voting for Jill Stein because of her support for single-payer health care. I'm encouraged by signs of other-party life, yet puzzled by their relative obscurity.

Why does any American citizen -- and by this I don't mean a corporate personhood -- support the Democrats or Republicans anymore?posted by grounded at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

What is with Ryan's weird William Shatner delivery.

He's hoping for a chance to rip off his shirt and do a shoulder roll to avoid a boulder thrown by Biden, who will be playing The Gorn tonight.posted by Joey Michaels at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Ryan's voice is really annoying. What is it about it? It sounds immature.posted by mareli at 6:07 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan talking about not calling someone a reformer when he was turning Russian-provided guns on his own people. What about when we supported Osama bin Laden?posted by JHarris at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe openly laughing warms my cockles

Despite the George Washington teeth, he has a great smile. One of his biggest assets.posted by essexjan at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Malarkey! We are being hoodwinked!

These dudes should just settle it in the parking lot.posted by Ad hominem at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Radditch is a way better and more engaged moderator than Lehrer. I hope that will keep the debate more informational and truthful than the last one.posted by marsha56 at 6:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

The look on Joe's face when Ryan complained about senior administration officials sending mixed signals was so precious I'm going to have to figure out how to make animated gifs to preserve it for all time.posted by winna at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

This is important stuff and Biden is, again, doing well, but a lot of low information voters have fallen asleep or changed the channel by now. This is just not the stuff Biden wants to be pounding.posted by Justinian at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012

I wish I thought this was going as well as you all seem to. Ryan is dominating the conversation, in terms of direction and in terms of clock control, just like Romney was.posted by penduluum at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden is... laughing his ass off. I like it, but do the undecideds?
posted by murfed13 at 8:15 PM on October 11 [+] [!]

We all love Joe here, but so far the little undecided voter tracking doohickey on CNN is souring pretty badly on just about everything he's saying on Libya and Iran, while eating up Ryan's shtick. It's not even a contest.

Ryan is incoherent, but glib and confident. I don't see how Biden's mirth is helping him without making strong points to back it up.posted by Rhaomi at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

You people realize there is perfectly good playoff baseball on that is way better than the Veep debate, right? I mean for christ's sake John and Suze are on. Keep it down.posted by vrakatar at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"This is a bunch of stuff!" Awesome.posted by wallabear at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm awaiting tomorrow's gif set of Ryan lip smacks.posted by The Whelk at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012

Bebe has been a friend of mine for 34 years. You, Mr. Ryan, have nothin' on me and Bebe!posted by ericb at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2012

How can a nuclear armed Iran trigger a nuclear arms' race in the middle east? That doesn't even make sense. Who else even begins to have the capabilities?posted by Phire at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Biden: Let's take a look at THE FACTS.posted by ericb at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

For the record, Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu is the prime minister of Israel.

BeBe Netanyahu is the break out star from my upcoming reality program "Real Housewives of Tel Aviv."posted by MCMikeNamara at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

I will be really upset if "domestic issues" in this debate does not include a substantive and lengthy discussion of contraception, reproductive rights, rape and women's status in American society.posted by cashman at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I like Biden okay, and I'm glad for the aggressiveness on calling bullshit, but I'm not seeing or hearing anything that would move a fence sitter. I hope he swings for the bleachers soon.posted by Mooski at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2012

I like Biden okay, and I'm glad for the aggressiveness on calling bullshit, but I'm not seeing or hearing anything that would move a fence sitter. I hope he swings for the bleachers soon.

This isn't about fence sitters, it's about energizing the base which was demoralized at Obama's performance. VP debates don't move people over fences.posted by Justinian at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

wow... What a weaselly "heh heh", compared to Biden's hearty chuckling!posted by pla at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012

Well, Paul Ryan just showed that he really doesn't understand how averages work. On the other hand, he did admit that unemployment is going down and the economy is growing,posted by wintermind at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

2 months? Aren't there seasonal effects to job growth?posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

The wrong direction, Ryan? Really? 700,000ish jobs a month going away to 125,000 a month being created? Sounds like the right direction to me...posted by wierdo at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Okay Biden, pin him on the specifics of taxes. Please.posted by cashman at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012

Noooo I hate it when Ryan is believable and sounds credibleposted by rmless at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Job creators MY FUCKING ASS. You've been getting trillions of dollars in tax cuts for the past 3 decades. Where the fuck are the jobs?posted by Phire at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

The only thing that could make Biden's attack more awesome would be if he stood up and lifted Ryan by the collar, shaking all his pocket change out.posted by item at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

My feed is probably a bit behind everyone else's, so I just came in to say one thing.

"Wasn't the cash" - but having enough cash to pay for the college education for random strangers sure does help!posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Surely that was on purpose.posted by bq at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012

Well thank god they where lucky enough to be in the same church as Mitt, but can't all be his BFFsposted by The Whelk at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's the eye of the tiger
It's the thrill of the fight
Risin' up to the challenge
Of our rival
And the last known survivor
Stalks his prey in the night
And he's watching us all with the
Eye of the tiger

"The great recession that came out of the sky. Oh my gosh, where did it come from? It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card, and all of a sudden, these guys are so seized with concern about the poor."posted by Phire at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [44 favorites]

NO THAT'S NOT WHAT YOURE SAYNG AT ALLposted by The Whelk at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012

This debate is less dispiriting because two people actually showed up for this one.posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Biden's about to brutalize Paul Ryan over the $716 billion and the PAB. Oh, yeah. Mr. Sanders (I-VT) has a one-sentence fix to the Social Security "problem".posted by wintermind at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Do you remember the episode of The Office where Michael Scott went to the shareholder's meeting and sat on the Big Table with the Chairman of the Board? And made a complete tit of himself ...?posted by essexjan at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Oh Jesus, Ryan pulls out the $716 billion again. The care providers and insurance companies agreed to it in exchange for the individual mandate. And says we'd "have" to cut benefits 25% when in fact we could just remove the cap on SS tax and have it solvent to 2080 or something like that.posted by wierdo at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan's got serious dry-mouth. Expect to see him start panting soon.posted by wallabear at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012

Can Biden just do the two presidential debates with Mitts? That would make me happy.posted by Farce_First at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

RYANBOT> INITIATE TALKING POINT PROTOCOL. BEEP.
RYANBOT> MAKE PERSONAL ANECDOTE TO RELATE WITH HU-MAN AUDIENCE.
RYANBOT> MAKE REFERENCE TO PAPABOT 2000.
RYANBOT> REMIND AUDIENCE OF AGE. I AM ONE OF YOU. YOU ARE ONE OF US.posted by JHarris at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

also, Ryan just looks like he's taking notes, like there's going to be a quiz and Ms. Hammerschmidt is going to mark him down for missing all the numbers.posted by jetlagaddict at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

"Folks. Follow your instinct."posted by Phire at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012

Now they got a new plan. Heh.posted by ersatz at 6:38 PM on October 11, 2012

I work there, but all I had to do with these was posting them to our site this afternoon and scheduling them. They're...interesting.posted by rtha at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

"They got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, turning Medicare into a piggy bank"—mixed metaphors much?posted by limeonaire at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Ryan needs to get someone to tag in for him desperately. He's taking a beating in there.posted by vuron at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012

I am hoping that, by the end of this debate, I see Joe Biden holding Paul Ryan's still-beating heart in his hand, blood dripping from his gleaming white teeth from using them to tear open that smirking punk's chest.posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [25 favorites]

Ryan looks like Jeff Probst after 38 days on the island and his suit doesn't fit anymore and he's desperate to make his case at tribal council.posted by mudpuppie at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I think Biden was specifically coached to interrupt when Ryan lies, but after the last debate I'm wondering if the media narrative once this concludes is going to involve Biden being disrespectful and flustered.posted by palidor at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Thank you! Nobody wants their parents to have to shop for coverage. Sure, have an elderly person poring through fine print for pages and pages on end.posted by cashman at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

"This is what politicians do when they don't have a record to run on. They fearmonger."

Oh thanks, Ryan, for explaining the GOP platform to me.posted by Phire at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Wait, wait, wait. The man who's only ever had 2 bills passed in the House just accused Joe Biden of not having a record on which to run?posted by wintermind at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

Ryan telling Biden he "doesn't have a record to run on" is just priceless. Fucking priceless.posted by flippant at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

I can't believe that Ryan has the nerve to say Biden is trying to scare people.posted by murfed13 at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Raise my retirement age. Fuck you Paul Ryan. I want to retire at 65. I'm not spending my late 60s greeting shoppers as a Walmart greeting.posted by humanfont at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

The people participating in the CNN line...hate Biden. Love Ryan. They are not believing Biden, and are swallowing Ryan's bullshit; hook, line, sinker.posted by dejah420 at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2012

I love Joe, and I hate to say this, but I think he's kind of getting buried here in terms of sheer punching power.

Really? We are obviously seeing this debate through VERY different lenses.posted by Superplin at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I do have to say that Ryan is taking far more than his share of the speaking time, for whatever reason. And it's mostly bullshit.posted by flippant at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2012

MEDICARE HAS BEEN GOOD TO ME, SO WE HAVE TO RIP OUT ITS GUTS AND REPLACE IT WITH FUNBUX.posted by mccarty.tim at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

Ryan looks like the goody two shoes who bullies in secret. So used to being deferred to he feels he ought rule just cuz he always has. Romney as well, but he is uncomfy with it.posted by vrakatar at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's so obvious that Biden really, really does care about the American public.posted by murfed13 at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

The people on the CNN line are ignorant "independents" (read Republican voters who don't like the label). They aren't the people needed to win.posted by Justinian at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

I love the pointing and gesturing. Don't sit there - say it and visually turn the attention of your words to their campaign. Yes.posted by cashman at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2012

If we lowered the medicare eligibility age to 60 think of all the jobs that would free up!

I know of one for sure- my Dad is eligible to retire as a Florida schoolteacher but will not retire until he is eligible for Medicare. If he could be eligible today, he'd probably do so, and move up here to be closer to his grandson and bother me all the time....you know what, never mind.posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Jaduncan, have my $100 ready because Mittens will be your next President.posted by RedShrek at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden is very good at looking at the camera and almost winking.posted by bq at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

Okay, don't fucking bring Canada into this. Your effective tax rate is ridiculous thanks to all your tax haven laws. The nominal rate has NO bearing on the reality of corporate tax avoidance. What a load of bull.posted by Phire at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Hey Ryan, something like 90% of small businesses are actually side jobs and hobbies.posted by wierdo at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Jesus Fucking Christ - RAISE MY FUCKING TAXES. Every goddamn year, my husband and I are SHOCKED when we hit the Social Security ceiling. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Paul Ryan comes from overseas. He's a foreigner, he just said it.posted by triggerfinger at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012

Hey, I hated (or at least, completely disregarded) Biden before tonight... But how can you listen to this and not respect him?

I love how Ryan's comparing apples, oranges, grapes, and cucumbers as he tosses-out numbers about tax rates.posted by wintermind at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

If CNN is accurate, it seems like Romney/Ryan's bump is all about validating the things people say are wrong with American politics. That we don't like policy, that we don't need facts, that we just want empty promises with no plans to back them up.posted by mccarty.tim at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

The people on the CNN line are ignorant "independents" (read Republican voters who don't like the label). They aren't the people needed to win.

SERIOUSLY. I could count on one hand all of the left-leaning people I know who spout that "Oh, I consider myself an independent..." stuff, it's Republicans all the way down.posted by jason_steakums at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Well, I'm trying to see it through the lens of the 'low-information voter', of people who haven't got a clue about the details these guys are bringing up, in terms of how things sound more than what their actual content is -- the standpoint of a worryingly large chunk of the electorate, I think.

How does Ryan get away with not mentioning any specifics—at all?posted by flippant at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012

What Biden is doing tonight is what I've been aching for Obama to do for the last four years. Call them out on their bullshit! Don't keep letting them get away with fucking us over and lying about it.posted by marsha56 at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [11 favorites]

What Biden is doing tonight is what I've been aching for Obama to do for the last four years. Call them out on their bullshit! Don't keep letting them get away with fucking us over and lying about it.

Biden has a lot more wiggle room than Obama for this sort of thing. Plus, I think (as the... Esquire?... article linked in the previous debate thread suggested) Biden genuinely enjoys it. Obama hates the performance aspect of these debates, which are ultimately mostly about showmanship. Unfortunately, well, they're mostly about showmanship, and that's the world you have to live in. Biden, on the other hand, wakes up every day itching to do his thing in front of an audience. Not, I think, out of narcissism, but because he is the kind of extrovert who genuinely enjoys the chance to get his message out and connect with a crowd. They're his battery charger.posted by Superplin at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [41 favorites]

Surge? In Afghanistan? I thought the surge was in Iraq?posted by benito.strauss at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2012

Moderator asks why not leave now. This woman has bigger stones than any of us. Truth to power sister.posted by humanfont at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

Did Ryan really mean that Romney-Ryan would make cuts -- which is how I first heard it -- or was he itemizing alleged reductions in force due to Democratic policy proposals?posted by wintermind at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012

What gains have we gotten in a foreign country? Are we now claiming ownership? I'm fucking confused. What gains have we gotten in Iraq?posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Another Ryan misconception (commonly held): The Taliban need refuge in Afghanistan. In reality, they have plenty of space to operate in Pakistan's (in name, anyway) Federally Administrated Tribal Areas. That's where they're operating from now. Do they plan to invade Pakistan as well?posted by wierdo at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I occasionally see this look on Ryan's face when he's listening to Joe talk--just a tiny glimmer-- where I swear he realizes just how wrong he is. Though I think that it's more likely that he just wishes he was on the other team because the message is so much better to win with.posted by goHermGO at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Biden seems like Dad telling the kids (Ryan and Romney) to go play in the basement because the adults have to have a serious talk about an important matter.posted by Seymour Zamboni at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

" we don't want to stay but we don't want to leave so our plan is to make sure we spend as much money as possible before we're forced to put an end to the black hole of embezzlement and failure that is the US forgiern theatre"posted by The Whelk at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I don't really like the new format, let's just shout at each other. I didn't really like the old format either, where one guy shouted and one guy tried to stay calm. Maybe we can try one where they both stay calm next time.

Ryan doesn't have a very good opinion of the US if he thinks the instant we pull out of a hugely unpopular military adventure then we'll be Suddently surrounded by Weeping Angels or somethingposted by The Whelk at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Unraveling, has anyone counted, how many times has he used that word? what's unraveling is the white male privilege he has always believed is his!posted by mareli at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

vrakatar: "Great now I am all into this and missing the Yankees on the radio, you fucks."

IN this analogy, Ryan makes an excellent Dwight, complete with survival kit.

Ryan actually reminds me in many ways of Michael Scott--arguably, even worse than Dwight. Dwight at least has the courage of his convictions, weird as they are; Ryan has Michael's need to ingratiate.

The "beefcake" photo shoot totally sealed the Michael Scott thing for me.posted by Superplin at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Obama hates the performance aspect of these debates

Exactly, he is an amazing orator. But because of this, people expected him to be fiery in his rhetoric when it comes to things like this. Instead he remains calm, stands back, and tries to let the opponent hang themselves. They usually do with their own words, but the spin machine takes the straw and weaves it into gold and Americans are more then happy to swallow.

A perfect example I like to use is during the whole Rev. Wright fiasco, initially he refused to admonish the man because he "is like family to me" even if he did not agree with what he said. And then went on to say that focusing on unimportant things like this will result of nothing ever changing.

This was an amazing thing to say as an American presidential candidate.

Unfortunately the opposition spin machine turned their strawmen and weaved them into gold, and days later Obama was forced to admonish Rev. Wright like he refused to before out of respect. It was a major intellectual defeat for him, and I hated seeing it.

Not that anyone will read this comment in the impossibly fast moving thread, heh..posted by mediocre at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [39 favorites]

"Let me try to illustrate this here. Because it can get a little confusing. Let me explain fighting seasons."

This is what debates should look like. I can't remember any other debate this awesome. Martha truly rocks!. Can we please get her to do all presidential and vp debates from here on out?posted by marsha56 at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I had to switch from my TV to my computer, and then from my computer to my iPad, and each time I ended up about 10 - 20 seconds behind where I had been. Odd. I am writing to you from the past.posted by The corpse in the library at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Right Joe, because "trained Afghan troops" are just as good as good as US troops.posted by Jahaza at 7:07 PM on October 11, 2012

The "independents" on my facebook feed have already started blaming Martha Raddatz for the way the debate is going. "The DNC must have hired her" and "This is by far the most disgraceful moderating I've ever witnessed both in allowing Biden's misbehavior & in participating in it herself."posted by headnsouth at 7:07 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan did great on the four seasons. Next up is colors and days of the week.posted by Miko at 7:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

In what way is he actually doing that? Contradiction (with no addressing of Ryan's argument) is not some magical form of persuasion.posted by Jahaza at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I think Joe needs to be nicer to Martha...posted by Farce_First at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Right Joe, because "trained Afghan troops" are just as good as good as US troops.

Guess we should either stay there forever or magically teleport every troop out at once so they're not supplemented with Afghani forces in the transition, then.posted by jason_steakums at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Biden brought a gun to a knife fight. And I love him. I LOVE YOU JOE ZOMGposted by angrycat at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Not that anyone will read this comment in the impossibly fast moving thread, heh..
posted by mediocre at 10:05 PM on October 11 [+] [!]

Biden seems genuinely angry, and justifiably so, I guess. I'm kind of thinking that could actually be a good thing, appealing as it might to Old Angry White Men (ie potential Republican voters).posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm surprised he actually says "Russia" instead of "USSR," with all the weird Cold War throwback messaging the GOP has been doing these past few weeks.posted by Superplin at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Here's my compliment for Ryan:

After this debate is over, can all the media commentators who claimed Sarah Palin did awesome four years ago explain to me what they think of Ryan's performance in comparison?posted by palidor at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

She introduced him as Congressman. That shit went out the window before this started.posted by wallabear at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2012

Farce_First : I think Joe needs to be nicer to Martha...

I think he has started to get tired and frustrated. He needs to hold on just a biiiiiit longer.posted by pla at 7:12 PM on October 11, 2012

This is what debates should look like.

No. Respectfully, this is the fiery, UFC, Americanized version of political debate. It is ugly. It is exciting, but it is ugly. And it is unfortunate that we have come to the point where we expect and hope for ugly fighting like this. Obama may be boring, but he is rational and he is right. Unfortunately, loud and angry is too commonly mistaken for right.posted by mediocre at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

And I love how Biden pinned him on wanting to send Americans to the most dangerous region of Afghanistan.

Except of course, that the Obama/Biden administration is sending those troops there now.posted by Jahaza at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012

We didn't "give" Russia a veto at the UN. They're a permanent member of the Security Council. Does Paul Ryan not understand how the UN works?posted by wintermind at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

Ryan still refuses to say what he would do differently going forward. Awesome.posted by wierdo at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Social issues! Fucking finally!posted by Phire at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

So Ryan wanted to do the standard cold war CIA founded coup thing?

Oh god I was shrieking the same thing.

OH MARTHA ASKS ABOUT ABORTIONposted by winna at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012

Notice how every time the moderator asks, "Well, what would Romney/Ryan do?", Ryan's response is "Well I'll tell you what we WOULDN'T do!" ...ughposted by crackingdes at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

"We would not go through the UN." Yes, unilaterally violating another nation's sovereignty worked so well last time.

There are options between "unilateral" and "UN backed". (And if by "last time" you mean Iraq, it wasn't unilateral.posted by Jahaza at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Did...did Ryan just say that the Democrats are going to force women to have abortions? I mean, maybe I heard that wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what he just said.posted by wintermind at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2012

Joe, please ask Ryan why if he's so pro-life he fights every opportunity to support those lives he cares so much about after they're born.posted by marsha56 at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

So science is a bean-baby as glimpsed by some laypeople in a 7-week ultrasound? And who gets an ultrasound at 7 weeks? That's some fancy insurance he must have.posted by gladly at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

vrakatar: "vrakatar: "Great now I am all into this and missing the Yankees on the radio, you fucks."

Catholic hospitals will indeed be required by law to pay for coverage of contraception.posted by Jahaza at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

I had ultrasounds that early on. It's not unusual, at least not as far as my experience goes. And when it comes to pregnancy anecdote = fact!posted by The corpse in the library at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012

No exceptions! Bring it Joe. Preach on, my new favorite American.posted by dejah420 at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

My close relative went to that 7 week ultrasound and there were serious problems. She had to get an abortion, thank God she didn't have to have someone second guess her decision.posted by humanfont at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [20 favorites]

Personal, religion-influenced views on abortion? As candidates for office, this question is worthless. A better question: what are your views on the relationship between religion & government?posted by audi alteram partem at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

At that moment, it was a reference to what I thought was a really elegant way to transitioning to a polarizing topic. A nice way to bring it around at the end. (but she's been fucking awesome throughout).posted by Lutoslawski at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012

I knew girls back in the sixties who died from illegal abortions. This is what Ryan/Romney will take us back to.posted by mareli at 7:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [37 favorites]

Personal, religion-influenced views on abortion? As candidates for office, this question is worthless. A better question: what are your views on the relationship between religion & government?

The answers actually answered that question. Since they're both Catholic, the distinction is super clear: Ryan believes that his personal religious beliefs should be enacted on the country as doctrine, whereas Biden believes that while his religion is important to him personally, he does not have the constitutional right to limit others' freedom of belief and practice.posted by Superplin at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [46 favorites]

So Ryan would make his conversation with a returned serviceman about how he should vote Republican? Classy.posted by kagredon at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Man he just thinks he said just the cleverest thing ever doesn't he?posted by The Whelk at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

attack blame & defame. he had to dig deep for that memorized phrase.posted by murfed13 at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Is that "record to run on" thing his idea of a zinger?posted by howfar at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

But Ryan, you and Romney are people who the 47% should run from...posted by Skygazer at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

No, Ryan, you won't impose devastating cuts on the troops' safety, just their health and everything else after they get back!posted by wierdo at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012

Brandon Blatcher : What, I missed the whimper?!

Juuuust before the last new question... He put in this pathetic little attempt at a response that tapered off into an inarticulate sad noise.posted by pla at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Um, my health insurance hasn't gone up by thousands of dollars a year. #anecdataposted by wintermind at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012

Way to negative campaign as an answer to a question about disliking negative campaigns there, Ryan.posted by troika at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

"Our straw veteran is upset about the negative tone in campaign ads. How would you respond?"

"First, by thanking him for his service. And then by going negative on the other candidate."posted by synecdoche at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

No, using the vet thing as a springboard for the 'you have a president and here's a bunch of things I memorized that I didn't get in in the past hour' is not classy.posted by Lutoslawski at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

attack blame & defame. he had to dig deep for that memorized phrase.

That was one of his prepared zingers!posted by ericb at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012

I had this in a background window, and it sounded like Biden was getting roughed up - hesitant, unsure, pausing to say "uh" a lot, backtracking to re-enunciate. It was cringeworthy.

Then I brought the window forward. The jut of the jaw, the broad smile, the gleam in his eye - the man is so completely on tonight, it's unreal. Ryan looks like a news anchor who's reading talking points off a teleprompter.posted by Slap*Happy at 7:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

"President Obama has not put any ideas on the table to deal with the debt crisis. I have."

Oh right, like how your Republican cronies held the debt ceiling hostage in order to get your way at the risk of America defaulting on their debt for the first time ever? Right, that bipartisanship.posted by Phire at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

Sweet Christ the tax cut/extra wars/who cares about AAA rating bloke is talking about the deficit. I fell off a truck yesterday!posted by ersatz at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

WHAT "proven pro-growth policies that we know work?" WHAT ONES? Because none of the ideas you and your party have put forward for the past couple of decades have accomplished that. They just haven't. Your ideas fail.posted by Miko at 7:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Guys guys I just got here late because my twitters said there was something going on in politics and it was like a wolf just ate a purse dog what happened?posted by mhoye at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

"We want to earn your support." -- Yeah, about that, that's what you're supposed to be doing up there.posted by wintermind at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I wonder if they made that table format so Ryan couldn't bring a 'handkerchief' with him.posted by winna at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I think Ryan is trying to sell me a car.posted by fzx101 at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012

It's odd to me how both Romney and Ryan have taken the second closing statement in their debates, but have both sounded really canned, just no response at all to any of Biden/Obama's statements.posted by kagredon at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I really wish we didn't have to do the stupid post-debate-on-screen-family-hug-shit every time.posted by kiltedtaco at 7:32 PM on October 11, 2012

What do you think that "uniquely qualified" means? Is there a code meaning in there? Or is just business-speak?posted by Miko at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I got a rebate in the form of lower payroll taxes for most of this past year. Did you not?

a) Lower payroll taxes are not a rebate on medical insurance premiums. b) I also got a three year pay freeze that more than offsets the lower payroll taxes.posted by Jahaza at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012

I follow both liberal and conservative people on Twitter, and the disconnect between them on this debate is complete and total. There is no common ground there, none. It's very disheartening, and it's also fascinating.posted by gemmy at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Wow, my MetaFilter actually broke for about five minutes. Just watched RoboRyan's closer. OMG.posted by wallabear at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm so disappointed Joe didn't take the opportunity to squeeze Paulie's bicep.posted by jacy at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

So their entire message boils down to "Obama had his chance." Yeah, don't mention the Republicans that shit the bed and then got angry when he did not clean it up fast enough.

And what principals are you taking about Ryan? Because I still don't have a clear picture on what your principals are other than "elect Mitt."posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Ryan: "You deserve better. We're for an extra pizza day in the cafeteria. We're for reinstating vending machines in the hallways. We need your vote!"posted by ericb at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

Biden alluded to Citizens United but not by name. It would have been nice to point out that most of that money is being spent by corporate interests supporting Romney.posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:34 PM on October 11, 2012

Is it just my politics that makes me fine with Biden facing the camera and going all 3-D, but I giggle at Ryan when he does it?

Looking at the graphs on 538, the Romney/Obama debate was an arterial puncture for Barack. He went from a slow, steady ascent to a rapid collapse of support in the polls. He's now back to where he was at the very lowest point during his campaign in early June.

This Biden/Ryan debate is about the only chance they've got at turning it around. I'm not even watching but I know there's no way Joe Boredom is out-glaming Senator Good Hair. Regardless of how many points you folks imagine Biden is scoring or how much you despise Ryan.

a) Lower payroll taxes are not a rebate on medical insurance premiums.

So you're enrolled with an insurance company which is actually using the money it receives from policy holders to pay for medical care. Good for you that you chose wisely and didn't enroll with one of those bilking theft machines which were suddenly forced to give money back that they weren't using as they should have been!posted by hippybear at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

a) Lower payroll taxes are not a rebate on medical insurance premiums. b) I also got a three year pay freeze that more than offsets the lower payroll taxes.

I misunderstood what you were talking about. I did get the healthcare rebate, but I think the deal was that it's up to your employer whether to pass it on to you or not. And as to the pay freeze, I think that argument is also with your employer.posted by Miko at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

It's odd to me how both Romney and Ryan have taken the second closing statement in their debates, but have both sounded really canned, just no response at all to any of Biden/Obama's statements.

Several of Ryan's statements were taken directly from previous statements he made. No wonder they sounded canned - they must have forced him to memorize them while he did Zumba.posted by winna at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ah, Americans. Your politics is so interesting what with your one party living in a different reality and the existential terror that comes with the consequences of the election, but I have barely 5 hours of sleep, so good night.posted by ersatz at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Drawing conclusion without looking at the evidence? How very...Republican of you.posted by Phire at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [39 favorites]

Debate ends. Biden roars off in his bitchin' Camaro, Ryan pulls on his running shoes and makes the 26.1 mile run back to his hotel in 2 hours flat.posted by subbes at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

God, Ryan sounded like a used car salesman.posted by obvious at 7:36 PM on October 11, 2012

Chris Matthews gave some battles to Ryan, but said Biden won the most points overall.posted by murfed13 at 7:36 PM on October 11, 2012

That's OK, Obama in the last debate said that I had gotten a rebate. But I haven't.

Geez - my options in the UK for the post-debate analysis is CNN or Fox and CNN is saying that Ryan had a "mastery of detail and strategy" ahead of Biden. WTF? I daren't switch over to Fox.posted by essexjan at 7:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Yeah, he really comes across like quite the condescending little prick, doesn't he?posted by fuse theorem at 7:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Joe's demeanor is playing badly on CNN -- they are saying substance was a draw, style points went to Ryan.posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 7:40 PM on October 11, 2012

Really, even MSNBC is reluctant to say it was an unequivocal Biden win. Except Rachel Maddow, who just called Ryan a clown. Thanks, Rachel.posted by murfed13 at 7:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

CSPAN now taking phone calls from viewers about their impressions.

Oops, now they're in the "spin room" listening to what those who are parts of the machine will say to redefine what we just watched.

MSNBC says Ryan was a disaster on Afghanistan and that he sounded like someone who learned the stuff for the test but who didn't REALLY get the issues.posted by murfed13 at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

No, you see, independent can also mean "too conservative to fully relate to the mainstream GOP" in some circles.posted by mccarty.tim at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

From the #debates twittter feed: "Biden's lucky this debate was held in Kentucky. Most other places he'd face repercussions for spanking a kid like that."posted by winna at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]

Here's a few other ones -

"Last time I saw a beating that bad, it was polybagged, and we wound up with four Supermen."

"Last time I saw a beating that bad, Cleveland was playing the home team."

"Last time I saw a beating that bad, someone entered a Yugo in the demolition derby."

I dunno gang, I said it upstream, I'll say it again; the numbers of the "undecided" didn't go for Biden. The spin on this debate is going to have Ryan as the winner, I can almost guarantee it. *We* think Biden rocked it, but that's not how the media is going to report it to the people who didn't see the debate.

Watching the spin now, it's astonishing how much of the narrative is being created by the talking heads.posted by dejah420 at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

I've just hit my favourite limit for the first time ever. IS THIS THE AMERICA WE WANT, BIDEN??posted by Phire at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

I can't wait for the fact-checking tomorrow.

Biden says Ryan doesn't have specifics about how he's going to make up for the loss of revenue due to his proposed 20% tax cut. Ryan replies that he will make up for the loss of revenue due to his proposed 20% tax cut. Our verdict: PANTS ON FIRE, BIDENposted by Flunkie at 7:45 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I've started to wonder if there's something going on with CNN and Wolf Blitzer. And half the commercials I've been seeing there have been these energy companies spinning doozies: BP on how it's so great for the Gulf, "clean coal", natural gas fracking, etc. Makes me wonder!posted by Schmucko at 7:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I misunderstood what you were talking about. I did get the healthcare rebate, but I think the deal was that it's up to your employer whether to pass it on to you or not.

The problem is the the president stood there on the stage and said that I was getting a rebate, "So we're already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you're already getting a rebate." Except that I'm not.

I misunderstood what you were talking about. I did get the healthcare rebate, but I think the deal was that it's up to your employer whether to pass it on to you or not. And as to the pay freeze, I think that argument is also with your employer.

Well, this is sort of tangential (Me—tangential? Inconceivable!), but I hate sports, hate bars, don't much care for crowds of people, and am almost pathologically bored by television "news," but watching the debate with metafilter humming away on my iPad may possibly have shown me what could be fun about watching a killer game at a sports bar with a whole bunch of people who were all in the same hopped-up sports fan headspace.

I feel like I needed a giant foam #1 finger for this thing.

Also, I desperately needed to use the little boys' room, but was so completely glued to the screen and iPad that I spent the last fifteen minutes clenched in agony and dancing Paul Ryan's little poly-sci Ritalin-deprived pee-pee dance. Fortunately, I did not soil myself.

Hmm, speaking as a progressive but poorly informed Canadian who was half-listened to an audiostream that intermittently cut out, I don't think it was quite the crushing victory for Biden that folks here think. Hopefully there's some sort of Nixon/Kennedy phenomenon at work there.posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:46 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Ha. C-SPAN caller says Ryan needs to go see a doctor because he sure drinks a lot of water.

Jahaza: " My employer happens to be run by President Obama, who has frozen our pay."

President Obama happens to not be part of the party that wanted to slash and burn public sector jobs and salaries.posted by Phire at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

I don't think MSNBC is being equivocal about calling it for Biden; they're pretty clearly in that camp. Matthews was scoring it like a boxing match which was a little confusing. But they're all clearly on board the Biden express.posted by Justinian at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2012

Yeah, this one was to shore up the base and stop the bleeding. Next one, the President had better come correct.posted by Slap*Happy at 7:47 PM on October 11, 2012

Debates are won and lost on style, not substance. Biden was strong, but he never had Ryan on the ropes, and he laughs and interruptions will cost him for those who found it rude. I'd still give it to Biden, but its not a slam dunk.posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

From the live blog over at Gawker during the car crash section of the debate: There's you're reduction of everything into one easy story. Biden: "Oh, you know paralyzed people? My old lady died, fucker."posted by humanfont at 7:48 PM on October 11, 2012

CBS seems to be coming down pretty solidly on the side of a Biden debate victory.

Biden beat Ryan so clearly it's not even funny, and nobody can say otherwise unless they're willing to overlook lie after lie after lie from Ryan and the Romney camp. I work in local, small market, underfunded and understaffed tv news, where a sponsor or key political figure getting pissed at what we say could seriously hobble us (shit, a single newsroom employee getting sick for a day can seriously hobble us), and we can still call a lie a lie, and it makes me sick that the big cable networks with all the money, prestige and access in the world can't call a pack of lies what it is and continue to give Romney and Ryan a free ride.posted by jason_steakums at 7:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

I don't think MSNBC is being equivocal about calling it for Biden; they're pretty clearly in that camp. Matthews was scoring it like a boxing match which was a little confusing. But they're all clearly on board the Biden express.

Yea, you're right. Lawrence what's his name was being a little tepid in the beginning and it threw me off.posted by murfed13 at 7:49 PM on October 11, 2012

Ryan had the vibe Like he was trying to sell the audience a used refrigerator.posted by Liquidwolf at 7:49 PM on October 11, 2012

I missed the first half of this - does anyone know where I can rewatch it?posted by rebent at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm convinced that people really do watch different things. On Facebook, a Republican just popped in to complain that Joe was begging for another chance while Ryan was giving him the hard stats. That's totally not the debate I watched.posted by synecdoche at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Watching the spin now, it's astonishing how much of the narrative is being created by the talking heads

Yeah, I just ranted on Facebook about the headlines on major news websites right now. All neutral: variations on "Biden, Ryan Clash in Debate;" "Sharp Contrast as Biden, Ryan Face Off." They're too wussy (or bought) to call this debate without letting the pundits have their spin.posted by Miko at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012

I dunno gang, I said it upstream, I'll say it again; the numbers of the "undecided" didn't go for Biden. The spin on this debate is going to have Ryan as the winner, I can almost guarantee it. *We* think Biden rocked it, but that's not how the media is going to report it to the people who didn't see the debate.

President Obama happens to not be part of the party that wanted to slash and burn public sector jobs and salaries.

Feel free to read the linked article I provided. The "party that wanted to slash and burn public sector jobs and salaries" talking point is largely related to state and local employees anyways, who have a very different situation than federal employees.posted by Jahaza at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012

Best tweet of the night: @billmaher: hi 9 1 1? There's an old man beating a child on my tv.posted by zarq at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [27 favorites]

Lawrence O'Donnell was unhappy because he did not at all like the religion question. He probably was having flashbacks to the "Will you take your orders from the Whore of Rome?" days.posted by Justinian at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012

but he never had Ryan on the ropes

Did you miss the discussion of tax policy? The moderator had Ryan on the ropes. Because their tax plan is indefensible, and sure enough, he failed to defend it. He couldn't offer specifics, after being asked repeatedly.posted by mek at 7:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [18 favorites]

Jahaza:President Obama told congressional leaders Tuesday that he is extending a two-year pay freeze for federal employees until at least next spring because Congress has not agreed on a budget for the next fiscal year.

I don't read that as "President Obama freezing your pay." I think you have to be kind of in reality denial to believe that's an accurate description.posted by Miko at 7:51 PM on October 11, 2012 [15 favorites]

From TPM: "There’s a limit on how much sense you can make when you’re just regurgitating stuff from your briefing books that you don’t know much about."posted by benito.strauss at 7:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I know who I'd rather go with on a long camping trip.

Joe and I would climb through the clear mountain air and sit under the stars with some cold ones and hot dogs roasted over a fire. Then for my entertainment he would wrestle a bear while we played Scorpions Greatest Hits on an eight-track.

I don't read that as "President Obama freezing your pay." I think you have to be kind of in reality denial to believe that's an accurate description.

It's literally executive action. Obama signs the order himself. Congress can't make him do it.posted by Jahaza at 7:53 PM on October 11, 2012

You know how you can tell who wins a debate? It's whoever complains about the ref the most. Last week it was Dems complaining about Romney steamrolling Lehrer. Tonight it's the GOP (specifically Fox News) claiming that Raddatz was too mean to Ryan. Don't know how it's going to play out tomorrow morning, but considering all Biden really had to do was stop the bleeding, then mission fucking accomplished.posted by zombieflanders at 7:54 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I think Josh Marshall said it well; Democrats are calling this a strong win for Biden, Republicans are calling it a draw. That's all you need to know about where the truth lies.posted by Justinian at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

God, only nuts call into the post-debate discussion, huh?

And "independents" who really, really don't like Biden or Ryan.posted by shortfuse at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012

Romney was all over the moderator last week, interrupting him left & right. No one said anything about that last week. Talking heads are already accusing Biden of bad debate behavior.posted by murfed13 at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Well, this thread was amusing, but it's obviously time for me to bow out. Thanks, MeFites.posted by hippybear at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2012

I don't know what debate people were watching if they don't think Biden knocked it out of the park. That was a bloodbath.posted by sonmi at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I have some very conservative friends on a certain blue and white social media thing, and they are saying things such as "does anyone else think this moderator is a moron" and "she is a she-demon."

It was a little bit like the Santos/Vinick debate if you replaced Alan Alda with Precious Roy.posted by jason_steakums at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Jahaza, Obama can't spend money that congress won't give him especially with sequestration looming on the horizon. Why give pay increases when every department could be faced with stiff across the board cuts.posted by vuron at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Krauthammer: "If you read the transcript, the debate was even. If you heard it on radio, Biden won. If you watched it on TV, then Ryan won."

I'm digging that the BBC, CBC and Al Jazeera are all talking about actual public policy, while American news outlets seem to be talking about who was more or less aggressive or "looked more presidential".

Personally, I thought watching Biden v. Ryan was like watching an adult and a 10-year-old. I'm probably wrong, though.posted by Benny Andajetz at 7:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Gotta love Mitch McConnell, complaining that Biden was disrespectful to Ryan. You know what's really disrespectful, Mitch? The way your candidates have blatantly lied their asses off to the American people.posted by zarq at 7:57 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

Ah, Jahaza. It's a lot more complicated than that. I'm sorry you're not seeing your payday yet, but at the same time, you're employed, you're insured, and I think in a spirit of patriotism you can probably trade a raise or a rebate for all the people that got included in healthcare coverage this past year and will be receiving it soon, and can recognize that this is an outcome of obstructionism in Congress. At least, many of the rest of us can.posted by Miko at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [17 favorites]

Yeah, research has shown that the two main factors that influence impressions of political debates are 1) candidates' demeanor (the main reason why there are such huge differences depending on the type of media used to learn about the debate, whether video, audio, or print/online text), and 2) mass media coverage of the debate after the fact. Even people who come away from viewing/listening to the debate with one impression are often swayed by post-hoc media narratives.posted by Superplin at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Prince Reibus (or whatever the fuck his name is) is gloating all over CNN, saying his guy won

Krauthammer is by no means a neutral party King Bee. If he says it's even then you know damn well it's a Biden victory.posted by vuron at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

So aggressive, domineering Romney...good. Aggressive Biden....bad.

But Romney didn't come off like an attack dog. You have to admit, Romney's had a brilliant strategy (in the sense that it worked). It was to cheat by stealing the clock and make a lot of pleasant sounding lies.

Biden was willing to fight for the clock and aggressively go after Ryan's lies, but in so doing he runs the risk of looking over-aggressive and out of control. I don't think he crossed that line, but that is, I think where the Ryan team wanted to push him.posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:59 PM on October 11, 2012

I'm not usually aroused by a spanking. But in this case....posted by howfar at 7:59 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

CNN has a "who won" poll on their front page (scroll down a little)posted by raztaj at 7:59 PM on October 11, 2012

The C-SPAN callers are surprisingly interesting tonight, perhaps because it's the VP debate..posted by wierdo at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012

The spin on this debate is going to have Ryan as the winner, I can almost guarantee it. *We* think Biden rocked it, but that's not how the media is going to report it to the people who didn't see the debate.

The people on the internet create the buzz. Ryan came off as a terrible liar to everyone who has paid attention to American politics for any of the last, let's say, 12 years.posted by ersatz at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Biden 50%, Ryan 31%, Tie 19% Is about what I expected. You might say it should be a much more clear victory than that, but honestly the only time the results would be more lopsided are when one side doesn't bother to show up (like last week). Ryan was there and didn't murder a kitten on camera so he got 1/3 of the undecideds. Obama didn't bother to appear and managed 22%.posted by Justinian at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012

Lutoslawski, yeah but they sure sung her praises when she raked the President over the coals in an interview about Libya. Hypocrites.posted by zarq at 8:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Cnbc poll Who do you think won the VP Debate? Paul Ryan: 56%, Joe Biden: 36%, Neither: 8%posted by girlmightlive at 8:02 PM on October 11, 2012

I thought Biden won but these "debates" make me sad. They are everything we say is wrong with 24/7 news. Whoever shouts more wins. These a pointless until we get legit fact checking and the moderator, or some independent panel, call people out for lying with impunity.

Of course I thought Ronmey was a disgrace last time and seeing Americans embrace his limitless bulshit is the first time I've really questioned the intelligence of the American people. I guess that was my mistake.posted by Ad hominem at 8:02 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Hahaha CNBC poll. No way that could be a biased sample.posted by vuron at 8:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

The networks are falling over themselves just like on the night before Ryan was announced as VP. I think, given the small amount of time left before election day, all this parsing of voter thoughts is basically worthless. When you factor in the desire of the new networks to sell ad space combined with the smallish differences in numbers, any bias in the reporting, fact checking or anything else, it throws off the numbers to enough of a degree that anything reported is basically worthless.

Best anyone can hope at this point is that, barring some huge gaffe before election day, we really won't know for sure what is going on until the votes are tallied. The best the candidates can do is continue to battle it out as if their lives depended on every speech.

Great theatre, but trying to suss out a logical answer of who is on top at this point is *almost* futile.posted by lampshade at 8:03 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden had every right to come out swinging, to come out passionate and to come out over-the-top. Mitt Romney got on stage and announced he liked Big Bird, federal regulation of business and poor people. WTF are you suppose to say in the face of such blatant BS? Tonight, let the fact checking begin, but Paul Ryan came off as the whiny, almost-but-not-smartest kid in the class that nobody likes. Biden came off looking like a guy who could probably not only still score a decent blow job, but also get things right a higher percentage of the time than Paul Ryan. And yes I've a glass of wine this evening and a couple of trips to the dug-out, but that debate was FUN.posted by PuppyCat at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

the first time I've really questioned the intelligence of the American people. I guess that was my mistake.

Yeah, I wish I had a better opinion of my countrymates, but it's been a lot of years since I credited the American public with the power of high-level, critical thought. That's not where we are, sadly.posted by Miko at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Hmm, speaking as a progressive but poorly informed Canadian who was half-listened to an audiostream that intermittently cut out, I don't think it was quite the crushing victory for Biden that folks here think. Hopefully there's some sort of Nixon/Kennedy phenomenon at work there.

If they want to win more independents, the Obama team is going to have to reshape their argument: Romney and Ryan are perfectly nice people, and they have really good intentions, but they can't offer specifics, their math does not add up, and they simply don't understand what struggling in the middle class is like. They need to treat their opponent's positions with seriousness, and then deconstruct them calmly and simply without overstepping into ridicule.

They should also point to parallels in the proposals by the Romney campaign and the Bush Administration. I would hammer the point home, over and over again: you can't cut taxes and fight wars and reduce the deficit. The conservative position is in fact letting the failed Bush policies expire, not reinvesting in the bad ideas that lead to the financial crisis in the first place.posted by deanklear at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Of course I thought Ronmey was a disgrace last time and seeing Americans embrace his limitless bulshit is the first time I've really questioned the intelligence of the American people. I guess that was my mistake.

Yup. The worst is when people I respect on that white and blue social media thing say things like "Biden couldn't find Libya on a map." Err... what?? I think I am generally an extremely open minded person but I canNOT understand non-social conservative/non-millionaire Repubs. I'm working on it.posted by murfed13 at 8:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Hannity: "Biden was laughing seemingly uncontrollably at times. Biden was rude and condescending."

"Condescending" is a word that gets bandied around a lot, and for the record, you are not being condescending when you have facts to prove that what your opponent is saying is garbage, and so you decide to say those things out loud.posted by King Bee at 8:06 PM on October 11, 2012 [27 favorites]

deanklear: "If they want to win more independents, the Obama team is going to have to reshape their argument: Romney and Ryan are perfectly nice people, and they have really good intentions, but they can't offer specifics, their math does not add up, and they simply don't understand what struggling in the middle class is like."

The people on the CNN line are ignorant "independents" (read Republican voters who don't like the label). They aren't the people needed to win.

SERIOUSLY. I could count on one hand all of the left-leaning people I know who spout that "Oh, I consider myself an independent..." stuff, it's Republicans all the way down.

...

The "independents" on my facebook feed have already started blaming Martha Raddatz for the way the debate is going. "The DNC must have hired her" and "This is by far the most disgraceful moderating I've ever witnessed both in allowing Biden's misbehavior & in participating in it herself."

...

Ugh, that CSPAN call in wasn't pretty. Guy posing as independent talking about how bad the liberal media is.

...

No, you see, independent can also mean "too conservative to fully relate to the mainstream GOP" in some circles.

...

God, only nuts call into the post-debate discussion, huh?

And "independents" who really, really don't like Biden or Ryan.

OK, it sounds like there are a number of people calling in to various shows tonight claiming to be independents who really should be calling themselves something else. But hi—left-leaning, lowercase-i independent, right here. Those aren't my people—I think the vice president kicked ass tonight. Can we quit with the blanket statements about independents?posted by limeonaire at 8:07 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Romney/Ryan positions takeaway:

1. Foreign Policy: We just need to BARK at the rest of the world, and they will come to our way of thinking.

2. Taxes: Everyone needs a cut, but the rich HAVE WORKED SO MUCH HARDER for theirs.

I could have done with a little less of laughing Joe. If he had just said the same things, but with a quiet air and serious demeanor, I think it might have gone a little further.posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

To be honest with you, Romney may have won some undecided moderate voters in the last debate, but I feel a lot of his moderate positions would have alienated a lot of his right-wing lunatic fringe. Who do you think will be more enthusiastic to haul their asses to the polls come November?posted by smithsmith at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed that CBS is right, but if not, then maybe it will be a draw with the undecideds.

I listen to most of it in the car and was cheering and pumping my fist whenever Biden was talking. I got home to watch the end and am now watching clips on MSNBC and Biden looks fired up and confident and Ryan looks nervous and evasive.posted by octothorpe at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I can't believe I sat through that completely sober.

Let me assure you, those of us who made the extremely poor decision to make "my friend", "bipartisan", and "when Ryan takes a drink of water" drinking moments are not in any better shape.posted by corb at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [21 favorites]

Yes, the Republican talking point is that Joe was too mean to Paul Ryan. So, they're copping that the GOP picked another weak and stupid partisan hack who can't cut it on the national stage for the Veep slot. Shades of Palin...posted by Slap*Happy at 8:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Romney and Ryan are perfectly nice people

I really don't think they're nice people. Nice people don't try to tell me whether or not I can have babies.

Can we quit with the blanket statements about independents?

I think it's fair; you're really an exception to the rule.posted by Miko at 8:09 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

Communist!
posted by homunculus at 10:05 PM ]

heh....i know several people exactly like that. they blurt out words like "communist", then retreat with the "look it up" when asked (just as Matthews did) what it means to them.

The problem is the the president stood there on the stage and said that I was getting a rebate, "So we're already beginning to see progress. In the meantime, folks out there with insurance, you're already getting a rebate."

I think he meant (and clarified later) "And it also says that you're going to have to get rebates if insurance companies are spending more on administrative costs and profits than they are on actual care." Which is how I got my rebate, and how some of my friends did not (they don't have a terrible insurer).posted by Garm at 8:10 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

the Republican talking point is that Joe was too mean to Paul Ryan

So, until tonight, Ryan was the lean and mean GOP wonk machine with all the sharp young policy ideas and the fast-moving hand jive, but after tonight, he was just a well-meaning green young kid who got roughed up by the alpha dog?

I saw this today. I hoped somebody would find a linkable video because that was the moment I knew despair.posted by ob1quixote at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

[Seriously, I don't know if folks have been drinking or what, but we don't do the "Republicans are stupid" thing here, maybe you want to be on another website?]posted by jessamyn(staff) at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Boston Globe: Fact checks and analysis on the debate.

That picture is the debate in a nutshell.posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on October 11, 2012

I found Biden to be exactly what everyone who has paid any attention expected: an elder statesman who said exactly what he thought, niceties be damned, who is passionate about what he does and what he wants to do. He took Paul Ryan to the woodshed, which is exactly what needed to happen, and is exactly his job. If Paul Ryan can't stand up to Joe Biden, how the hell could anyone expect him to stand up to any other leader on the planet? and I hope with all of my being that President Obama does that to Romney next week.

1. Take a drink.
2. Check to see if you have any booze left - if you do, take a drink.posted by PuppyCat at 8:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

Oh hell I thought it was "drink everything if Ryan is smarmy."

We initially tried "drink when Biden laughs" and "drink when Ryan makes a going-to-the-bathroom face", but that was heading way south way too fast.posted by corb at 8:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Keep in mind that CNBC is where the Tea Party informally started.

Keep in mind that CNBC was telling their viewers to buy stocks a day before the market crashed. If they know as much about the election as they knew about the market, then please, tell me more!posted by octobersurprise at 8:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Romney and Ryan are perfectly nice people

Nice to the people they see in the bathroom mirror every morning. The rest of the world can get f__ked.posted by lampshade at 8:13 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

So, until tonight, Ryan was the lean and mean GOP wonk machine with all the sharp young policy ideas and the fast-moving hand jive, but after tonight, he was just a well-meaning green young kid who got roughed up by the alpha dog?

That's not the problem, the problem is that Obama isn't honest about the rebate and the payroll tax relief you floated as a benefit is moot if it's offset (and more than offset over time) by pay freezes.

but at the same time, you're employed, you're insured, and I think in a spirit of patriotism you can probably trade a raise or a rebate for all the people that got included in healthcare coverage this past year

Except that the two things are in no way interdependent. It's not like Obama horse traded a payroll tax cut or a federal pay freeze for passing Obamacare.posted by Jahaza at 8:15 PM on October 11, 2012

the payroll tax relief you floated as a benefit is moot if it's offset (and more than offset over time) by pay freezes.

If you don't think you are making what you're worth, then market your skills to the private sector instead of taking our tax dollars like a school teacher.posted by dirigibleman at 8:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

President Obama in February called for a 0.5 percent pay increase for federal employees to be effective in January 2013. Congress was expected to either approve or block the raise, which was included in the president's proposed budget for fiscal year 2013. But as of now, federal workers are still wondering whether the two-year pay freeze that began in January 2011 will be extended for another year.

What happened? Obama just before the Sept. 30 close of fiscal year 2012 signed a six-month continuing resolution that did not include the proposed across-the-board pay increase for General Schedule employees or preclude it from being implemented after the CR expires at the end of March. Obama in an Aug. 29 letter to congressional leaders said he still was calling for the 0.5 percent pay raise in calendar year 2013, but not for the period covered by the CR.

Before the CR expires, the president and Congress will need to determine whether or not to include the proposed pay raise in legislation needed to fund federal agencies for the rest of FY 2013. However, if they are unable to agree on such legislation, there is also the possibility of another CR, which would increase the chances of agencies being funded at levels that likely would preclude the pay raise.

There is also the question of whether any pay increase would be effective at the end of March or retroactive to the beginning of calendar year 2013. Federal employee unions are pushing for a retroactive pay increase, but regardless of the results of the national election Nov. 6, the appetite in Congress and the administration for such an increase likely will be lacking.

I'm sorry I can't feel a little sorrier for you. But can we talk about something else now?posted by Miko at 8:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

Don't worry, Jahaza. When your buddy Romney gets in and slashes federal employees you'll have no income at all to complain about.posted by smithsmith at 8:19 PM on October 11, 2012 [25 favorites]

CNN/ORC post debate poll, Ryan 48%, Biden 44%

Is this another internet poll? I think honestly those of us on both sides should calm down about those...they are strongly subject to manipulation by partisans. Someone posts it, everyone goes over, rinse and repeat.posted by corb at 8:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Hey, guys, not all of us feds feel the same way Jahaza does. I have a great job, for which I'm grateful, and I'm willing to take a hit for a while because we all need to do our part.posted by wintermind at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

Listen Jahaza, I'm a state employee so I know how much it sucks when you get pay freezes for extended periods of time. Losing ground to inflation sucks. I've been there and done that.

The truth of the matter is that the Republican party in Congress is stacked to the brim with people that believe strongly in drowning government in the bathtub. As a result they are holding anything they possibly can as hostage in an attempt to force Obama's hand in terms of extending the Bush tax cuts.

In this political environment the resources necessary to raise pay in federal departments simple aren't there. In fact Obama is trying to avoid having those departments take big across the board cuts which would almost certainly result in job losses as programs get cancelled and workers get furloughed.

This are things that Ryan's party in the House have forced.posted by vuron at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [19 favorites]

I don't think the attempt at "Biden was condescending and mean" narrative is gonna play, though the right is going to push it hard. Biden is a statesman with decades of experience on Ryan. He has a rep of calling 'em like he sees 'em. Him calling people out is different than if someone else did it.

Plus... casting Ryan as a bullied kid does what for the GOP, exactly? Ryan's supposed to be the policy backbone of the ticket, and he blew it.posted by sonmi at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Plus... casting Ryan as a bullied kid does what for the GOP, exactly? Ryan's supposed to be the policy backbone of the ticket, and he blew it.

It doesn't cast Ryan as a bullied kid, it casts Biden as an out-of-control drunk uncle at Thanksgiving. Ryan came off as more reasonable - even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.posted by corb at 8:24 PM on October 11, 2012

In the hyper-accurate Fark pchop poll, which admittedly called it closer than it actually was last week, has come down decidedly in favor of Biden. Mostly Mortal Kombat references starting at around the 9:30 mark, and upvoted "Release... THE BIDEN!" pics posted at the beginning of the debate. Ryan looking like a goof while lifting weights is pretty much everywhere, usually while being tricked by Biden.posted by Slap*Happy at 8:25 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

You'd better hope you're not either, because he explicitly said he's not going to say which ones he's eliminating.posted by Flunkie at 8:26 PM on October 11, 2012

It's astonishing that one man would say, "I will not impose my religious views on others" and the other man does not say, "Me too."posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [33 favorites]

Biden "disrespectful" is the party line; I'm hearing it over and over from the pro-Ryan callers on CSPAN. I'm interested in this obsession with "respect." I have to say that I don't expect the kind of deference they seem to characterize as "respect" to be coming from an opponent's side. To me, that is not what a debate is about. I think everybody's job in a debate is to state their case clearly and forcefully and to contradict erroneous characterization. Everyone should do that. It isn't "disrespectful" to speak strongly.

I wonder if it's one of those honor-society, don't-cross-my-privilege sorts of things that engenders this focus on "respect."posted by Miko at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Well, Flunkie, I'm a scientist, so I'd be pretty well screwed if Romney wins.posted by wintermind at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.

Disagree with Biden if you like, but I don't see how anyone can say he didn't take the debate seriously. The man showed some real passion.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

wintermind: "Well, Flunkie, I'm a scientist, so I'd be pretty well screwed if Romney wins."

It doesn't cast Ryan as a bullied kid, it casts Biden as an out-of-control drunk uncle at Thanksgiving. Ryan came off as more reasonable - even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.

Yep. The problem with this is that while nobody who liked Biden before is going to think this, those who believed the narrative about him being a buffoon will. That's why I think it's a tie -- it doesn't move the needle in terms of persuading people. However, if it gets Democrats fired up, there will be a shift in the polls as more of them lean toward "likely voters." We'll see if it's enough.

That's why the Romney debate was so damaging -- it did shift the narrative away from Romney being a fat cat jerk. This debate felt good, but unless Obama brings it next week, it won't matter.posted by snickerdoodle at 8:28 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Ryan came off as more reasonable

No, he really came off as not ready for prime time. If this was Thanksgiving, Biden might have been the drunk uncle, but an uncle with the life experience to know what he's talking about, while Ryan was totally unready to sit at the grownup table.posted by Miko at 8:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

The CBC audience gave the debate to Biden by something like 88% to 10%.

mazola: "The CBC audience gave the debate to Biden by something like 88% to 10%.

So that's Canadians for you."

I so wish I could favourite this. I'm giving it verbal props instead.posted by Phire at 8:30 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Watching the spin now, it's astonishing how much of the narrative is being created by the talking heads.

This particular aspect is really quite worrying to me this election. I have the distinct feeling that there is a pre-defined media narrative of the "narrow horse race" which will, damn it, be followed no matter the facts. It's really stark this time through, with the millisecond reaction times from polls of "undecideds," as live line graphs, the hand-selected twitter feed messages pushing a narrative, and then the steamroller of "expert" coverage that's being applied continually, with this "fact checking" concept being treated like some kind of novelty for the sidebar.

It's really, really depressing. Joe fucking rocked this shit, but I'm in agreement with others above who note that this stands in direct opposition to the pre-determined media narrative, so it will be roundly rejected.

It takes a big fucking deal, like the 47% comments (which as I mentioned in the other Romney thread, should have fucking buried his candidacy permanently), to shift the media frame, and they're very, very unhappy about it.posted by odinsdream at 8:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

The CBC audience gave the debate to Biden by something like 88% to 10%.

Well, I'm a Canadian, and I had to hook the TeeVee back up to watch this, so I'm no expert. But I liked the part where that Republican guy never even once answered a direct question.posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 8:31 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

I guess Obama, the president of the United States, is less deserving of respect than Ryan for some reason. Shout down and interrupt Obama all you want but disrespecting Ryan, the brains on the republican party, is beyond the pale!posted by Ad hominem at 8:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [26 favorites]

It doesn't cast Ryan as a bullied kid, it casts Biden as an out-of-control drunk uncle at Thanksgiving. Ryan came off as more reasonable - even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.

This is the dumbest commentary I've seen on the debate so far. Biden was jumping in passionately because he didn't take the debate seriously. People don't even listen to what they say.

Paul Ryan is a liar. Lying in a debate is rude. Interrupting a lie to point out the facts is what a decent person does.posted by spaltavian at 8:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [30 favorites]

I saw this today. I hoped somebody would find a linkable video because that was the moment I knew despair.

You know nothing yet. Go forth. Attend a Ryan rally. Then may you speak of your miseries.posted by clarknova at 8:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Biden's job was stopping the bleeding, shoring up the base, and acting like an attack dog in calling out Republican lies.

He was strongly empathetic which will play well with middle class and working class voters in swing states, he shored up the base which will help in the "enthuisasm gap" and he framed Ryan and Romney as unrepentant liars and flip-floppers which should help take some of the wind out of their sails.

Biden's job isn't to win people over to Obama, it's about making sure that people get out and vote. Demographics simply favor the Democrats to such a huge degree in this election that as long as Obama brings in enough of his base from 2008 there simply isn't a way for Romney to win.

Biden's attack dog attitude is going to shore up Obama among single women and rustbelt voters and considering Ohio is pretty much a must win for Romney help Obama win the election.posted by vuron at 8:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

there is a pre-defined media narrative of the "narrow horse race" which will, damn it, be followed no matter the facts

This is absolutely true, and the reason is simple: only a narrow race will keep people sweating, watching, clicking and sharing up to the day of the election. And those advertising dollars are precious ones that come only every four years - and a super big bonanza this year, thanks Citizens United! - make no mistake.posted by Miko at 8:33 PM on October 11, 2012 [22 favorites]

Also, from the activist group I'm watching this with, a bunch of us were WTFing that Ryan was the first person and only person to mention the poor. It was like Bizzaro-world.posted by corb at 8:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

snickerdoodle: "However, if it gets Democrats fired up, there will be a shift in the polls as more of them lean toward "likely voters." We'll see if it's enough."

Much of the movement in the RAND poll has been due to Democrats becoming less enthusiastic about voting. One hopes that will help. Also, I suspect some voters will be turned off by Ryan's steadfast refusal to get into any kind of specifics about any of his points of dispute. He refused to say what he and Romney would do differently going forward on national security, at least in any concrete way. He refused to provide any specifics on how they plan to write out $5 trillion or more of tax loopholes to pay for their tax cut. He refused to even say what they wanted to use the extra money for the military.

On only one issue did Ryan offer any specifics, and that was his view on abortion. Even there, he did not state what specific actions he would take, only general principles.

I just can't see how anybody who cares about policy could take that performance seriously. I figure the people who are so concerned about Biden's demeanor are probably already in the tank for Romney, so fuck 'em.posted by wierdo at 8:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

It doesn't cast Ryan as a bullied kid, it casts Biden as an out-of-control drunk uncle at Thanksgiving. Ryan came off as more reasonable - even when he was being shifty - whereas Biden just looked like he wasn't taking the debate seriously and was just being a jackass.

I had the opposite impression, actually. I think Biden laughed in exasperation when appropriate and was serious when appropriate. I don't think you could hear his responses re: abortion and his losses and the wars and think he wasn't serious. In fact, despite his laughter, I think he was deadly serious the entire time. He takes governing very seriously, despite being a goofy guy. Ryan came across as scared and out of his depth, IMO. Biden's experience/reputation give him the freedom to speak as he did, I think, in a way most politicians couldn't.

I wonder how much it costs to staff the banks of phone-in callers and news-site-survey clickers to just go nuts for the hour or two after these things. The survey-clickers don't even need to be able to pass for Americans on the phone, and they could be anywhere.

Yep. I think some of my favorite moments in the debate were those when both Biden and Raddatz were giving Ryan the third degree on a given point. It was just so clear that Ryan's in over his head when it comes to foreign policy, in particular. Biden's foreign-policy expertise is a large part of what got him the VP nomination in 2008, and he's been at the center of the Obama administration's foreign-policy decisions—Ryan should have had the sense to back off on his winding soliloquys and rambling "explanations" of various foreign-policy principles. It was pretty easy to tell when he was trying to feel his way back to the comfortable ground of memorized lines and facile "five-point plans."

But unfortunately, it sounds like the narrative coming from at least some quarters is that those moments were somehow "unprofessional" on the part of the moderator, because she dared to jump right into the fray and challenge Ryan on her topic of expertise, rather than failures on Ryan's part.

To be clear, if I'm biased, it's generally toward reasoning ability and intelligence—and while Ryan's smart, at multiple points, he came off like he was blindly parroting talking points, rather than demonstrating expertise of any sort.posted by limeonaire at 8:36 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

What was up with Ryan and the water guzzling? It was almost like a nervous tic.

Duuuude. Gotta stay hydrated for the 2-hour marathons.posted by Miko at 8:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I could not take my eyes off Ryan's forehead. And the cakeing makeup, as he raised his eyebrows.posted by Danf at 8:38 PM on October 11, 2012

Also, all this talk of Biden smiling too much ignores the fact that Ryan smiled at Biden creepily throughout the entire debate. Steadily blinking every 4 seconds. Never breaking eye contact. Ahhh!posted by sonmi at 8:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Win or lose, Biden looked like he was having a blast out there and it was fun to watch. I hope Obama was taking notes.posted by empath at 8:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Ryan came off as more reasonable

Ryan couldn't or wouldn't answer with specifics; that doesn't look shifty, that looks stupid. Biden didn't look "out of control," Biden looked incredulous. Romney and Ryan not supplying specifics at this point is beyond ridiculous, and I'm having trouble believing that even low-information voters haven't recognized this.posted by faineant at 8:38 PM on October 11, 2012 [23 favorites]

Yep, Ryan had a total Defense Smirk going every time Joe was talking.posted by jason_steakums at 8:39 PM on October 11, 2012

Biden "disrespectful" is the party line.

And a lot of people will buy it. Something would help though. Show the viewers the time clocks the candidates and moderator see. Much of the time Biden jumped in to prevent Ryan from using the same trick Romney did. If you don't realize that, you'd think he was being a jerk.posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

there is a pre-defined media narrative of the "narrow horse race" which will, damn it, be followed no matter the facts

This is absolutely true, and the reason is simple: only a narrow race will keep people sweating, watching, clicking and sharing up to the day of the election.

It also makes it more believable when the vote totals don't match the exit polling, as was the case in both Bush Jr. elections.

Please recall this comment when you're wondering how the fuck "President Romney" is an extant fact on the morning of November 9th.posted by clarknova at 8:39 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

These things are a lot more fun when it's your guy doing the ass kicking.posted by notyou at 8:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [12 favorites]

Unfortunately speaking to the plight of poor people is pretty much out of vogue in both parties corb. Lower income Americans typically have lower voter turnout numbers, don't contribute money to campaigns and are excellent scapegoats. Years of demonizing the poor from the right have pretty much left the Democrats unwilling to fight to protect them. From the perspective of lower income Americans both parties leave much to be desired but I think the Republicans are much more hostile towards low income Americans as a general rule.posted by vuron at 8:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

while Ryan's smart, at multiple points, he came off like he was blindly parroting talking points, rather than demonstrating expertise of any sort.

Oh yeah, Ryan was definitely hitting talking points hard. I think he was in that debate with instructions to humanize Romney at any costs - because that's what's moving the polls.posted by corb at 8:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Also, all this talk of Biden smiling too much ignores the fact that Ryan smiled at Biden creepily throughout the entire debate. Steadily blinking every 4 seconds. Never breaking eye contact. Ahhh!

Yes—it felt like Ryan was trying to pull off that totally comfortable, "Oh, you're saying that now, but have I got an answer for you!" amused smile that Mitt Romney wears so well.posted by limeonaire at 8:41 PM on October 11, 2012

People don't even listen to what they say.

Way-out-there on the extreme right conservative dumbass* Facebook friend from decades ago says that Biden's rich, and angrily asks if we really believe that he's going to pay "his fair share".

I bit my tongue. But I really, really wanted to say, OK, good, so you agree that the amount that the rich pay now is less than their fair share.

*: I mean he's conservative and he's a dumbass, not that he's a dumbass because he's conservative, or (necessarily) that he's a conservative because he's a dumbassposted by Flunkie at 8:41 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

THAT'S NOT A PLAN. Those are things you wish were the case. Those are 5 possible outcomes of a plan.

It reminds me of when I teach my math classes. I ask students what the Pythagorean Theorem is, and they say "a^2 + b^2 = c^2." No, that's not it. Theorems are not their conclusions. Plans are not their desired outcomes. Let's please understand this.posted by King Bee at 8:42 PM on October 11, 2012 [50 favorites]

On the bullying thing, I think it's important to note that Ryan didn't hesitate to interrupt Biden when he thought he'd caught Biden out on something - but Ryan didn't have as many things to call Biden on as Biden did Ryan, and Ryan interrupted with talking points while Biden interrupted with facts.posted by jason_steakums at 8:44 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

*: I mean he's conservative and he's a dumbass, not that he's a dumbass because he's conservative, or (necessarily) that he's a conservative because he's a dumbass

Who are you trying to convince?posted by clarknova at 8:44 PM on October 11, 2012

clarknova, I am highly confident that this guy's dumbassitude is a real thing. If you want to believe that I believe that only because he's way out on the fringe, well, OK I guess. Feel free.posted by Flunkie at 8:47 PM on October 11, 2012

THAT'S NOT A PLAN. Those are things you wish were the case. Those are 5 possible outcomes of a plan.

What the hell are you even talking about now clarknova, you keep on acting like Romney is a foregone conclusion when a week ago he was all but destroyed in every credible electoral vote tally. The truth of the matter is that the state level polling is still strongly in favor of Obama even while Romney is enjoying his first solid week of decent polling in ages. Statistically speaking debates have never really influenced elections by a really significant margin and most of Romney's gains are already being shed back as the campaigns return to equilibrium. Furthermore most of Romney's gain have been made in regards to the supposed enthuisasm gap which is probably smaller than many pollers are actually giving credit for.

Can Romney still win this election? Certainly, nobody credible is going to suggest otherwise. But to suggest that Romney has this in the bag? No there simply isn't any credible evidence to support that currently.posted by vuron at 8:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Ryan came off like the treasurer of the high school debate team who has decided to try to take on the local District Attorney.

He got his punk ass handed to him, and it couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.

I do wish that Biden had finished stronger, and, in particular, that he had used the question about the nastiness of the campaign to point out that the that is almost entirely attributable to the GOP and the politics of personal destruction that has formed the cornerstone of their approach since the Clinton administration...

But it was an extremely solid win, much better than I thought was reasonably possible.posted by Fists O'Fury at 8:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

So true. It's not a plan. It's a list of fantasy outcomes. Its a list of New Years Resolutions.posted by cacofonie at 8:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Skipping ahead an hour of how fast I can read your comments, I'd like to reiterate -- Martha Raddatz moderated this debate like a master. So impressed.posted by wallabear at 8:49 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Biden had EVERYTHING - the backstory, the facts, the contextual situation that could only have come FROM ACTUALLY DOING THE JOB.

And Ryan had quavering recitation of talking points and the kind of exasperating, simpering swagger that comes from thinking your football is the only one anyone's ever going to get to play with.

I do wish that Biden had finished stronger, and, in particular, that he had used the question about the nastiness of the campaign to point out that the that is almost entirely attributable to the GOP and the politics of personal destruction that has formed the cornerstone of their approach since the Clinton administration...

At that point, I was begging for Biden to show some mercy. It was probably a good thing he let it go on a less aggressive note...posted by sonmi at 8:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I was really impressed by how Ryan explained the details of his proposal to cut taxes, raise defense spending, save Medicare and balance the budget by closing completely unspecified loopholes. He was so serious! When Biden laughed and called it malarkey, that really lowered the tone.posted by leopard at 8:52 PM on October 11, 2012 [6 favorites]

Ryan looked like he got a weird taste in his mouth whenever he was called on flipping his own past personal views to match Romney's. I'd really be interested in reading the shit he slings in his autobiography years after the dust settles from this, because I get the feeling that he's a guy who loves himself so much that he feels like he could win this singlehandedly if he wasn't chained to Romney.posted by jason_steakums at 8:58 PM on October 11, 2012 [4 favorites]

Now, now, he did specify one. He said that they'd eliminate the mortgage interest deduction for high income people. I'm sure that the Republican base would be cheered by this fiscal move, if anyone would point it out to them. Romney/Ryan: We'll make you pay interest on your home mortgages!

RYAN: Yeah, we're saying close loopholes...

RADDATZ: Home mortgage deduction?

RYAN: ... on high-interest people.

RADDATZ: Home mortgage deduction?

RYAN: For higher-income people. Here...

BIDEN: Can you guarantee that no one making less than $100,000 will have a mortgage -- their mortgage deduction impacted? Guarantee?posted by winna at 9:00 PM on October 11, 2012

Alas, the internet doesn't wanna tell me what the etymology of "malarkey" is, so I can't really get full mileage out of annoying people with it.posted by nebulawindphone at 9:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

I have next to no real context for this debate. I'm Canadian. I'll never vote in a US election. While the outcome will affect me tangentially, I will not have an impact on it.

I watched this debate on XBOX Live's feed, because that's what's hooked up to my TV. The feed has an instant polling feature. A question pops up on your screen, you select an option and and see the communal results. I would estimate 90% of their instant polling questions for this debate came down in the Democratic ticket's favour, generally at 60% or higher. If you're at all familiar with the kind of animals who populate XBOX Live, this is surprising and heartening. Maybe most of the outright monsters don't bother to tune into political debates, but I'm choosing to be optimistic this evening. I also think that Biden kicked Ryan all over that stage.posted by figurant at 9:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [5 favorites]

Meanwhile, in Mitt Romney news, Mitt was just on David Letterman. He walked out on stage and said "I don't have any proof, but I think Canada's up to something" and then walked off. Wtf? Dave said Lucy Liu is on next - is Mitt not even staying for an interview?posted by triggerfinger at 9:02 PM on October 11, 2012

Alas, the internet doesn't wanna tell me what the etymology of "malarkey" is, so I can't really get full mileage out of annoying people with it.

OED says "origin unknown". Notes that an Irish surname "Mullarkey" exists, but that there's no known link. Also notes a suggested etymology from ancient Greek μαλακός or μαλακία, i.e. soft or softness, "in figurative use".posted by Flunkie at 9:05 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Triggerfinger I think that's old footage of Romney doing a top ten list or something.posted by dog food sugar at 9:06 PM on October 11, 2012

Unfortunately, if you want another verse, your options for a rhyme are "darkie" and, uh, "narc-y"?posted by nebulawindphone at 9:07 PM on October 11, 2012

Yeah, I also found this thing saying it's maybe possibly conceivably from an Irish word for "deception," but it seems like they're just sorta throwing it out there without any evidence. Which is appropriate, but still.posted by nebulawindphone at 9:08 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Hannity's show was unbelievable. For him to call another man rude and condescending is obscene. The pot on my stove actually jumped up, ran over to the television and started shouting things like "you're fucking black, you goddamned kettle!"

I've been watching Fox News for the past hour and a half now, and now they're interviewing the so-called "Tobin Ryan" with his wife and children. I really want him to start talking about his popular tome, Tobin's Spirit Guide.

Unfortunately, if you want another verse, your options for a rhyme are "darkie" and, uh, "narc-y"?

That's why the chorus doesn't depend on a rhyme with "malarkey." Too limiting. The verses are free to use any rhymes at all!posted by Superplin at 9:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Malarkey is meaningless talk, nonsense or foolishness.
It’s still known in the US and to a lesser extent in the UK and elsewhere, but where this odd-looking word comes from is decidedly uncertain. What we do know is that it began to appear in the US in the early 1920s in various spellings, such as malaky, malachy, and mullarkey. Its first known user was the cartoonist T A Dorgan, in 1922, but it only began to appear widely at the end of the decade. By 1930, Variety could pun on it: “The song is ended but the Malarkey lingers on.”
Various theories have been advanced. Eric Partridge pointed to the modern Greek word malakia but he formed a group of one. His later editor, Paul Beale, noted the London expression Madame Misharty, the personification of sales talk, exaggerated claims, and wild predictions, a name that was supposedly that of a fortune teller. But this is stretching a possible linguistic link to breaking point and, in any case, we know it started life in North America. Others point to the family name Malarkey, though who the eponymous member of the tribe might have been whose Irish-derived gift of the gab could have given rise to the name remains unknown. Jonathon Green likewise suggests a Irish origin in mullachan, a strongly-built boy or ruffian, though this, too, seems a stretch of meaning.

Others think it might come from the Irish family name “Mullarkey” and its various spellings. Both Michael Quinion (World Wide Words) and Evan Morris (The Word Detective) suggest the source may be a notorious, long-forgotten Mullarkey.

The word seems to have been popularized by the American newspaper cartoonist T.A. Dorgan, known as Tad, who also helped popularize the terms “hard-boiled” and “kibitzer” in his drawings.

Well. I think there is value in the ideas and energy on both sides of the aisle. I think there is a natural and necessary ebb and flow between opposite views. I think different times call for different leaders. I think politics is both reason and rhetoric and at the same time much more than that. I think all politicians are opportunistic bastards, but then so am I.

But Ryan's performance tonight, well. If there was any doubt left, he removed it. American conservatism - if we should call it that - is a barren wasteland. I am not even talking about the class warfare or the canned delivery or the aggressive, frankly hostile view on foreign politics. Even when you discount that, not a single one of the ideas presented is new, smart or appealing in any way. How can you possibly say we need to cut taxes when infrastructure is crumbling, education has turned into a racket, and debt is astronomical? How can you possibly flirt with military action in Syria and Iran when it will take another fifteen years at least to fully come to terms with the mess that is Iraq and Afghanistan? How can you possibly push for market reforms when we are in the middle of the most catastrophic failure of the market in, well, who knows where it will end?

This is a toxic wasteland of thought and it needs to be fucking quarantined for a a couple of decades, like Chernobyl. Then perhaps something of value can grow there again. Mother of God. What a waste.posted by deo rei at 9:16 PM on October 11, 2012 [37 favorites]

I really want him to start talking about his popular tome, Tobin's Spirit Guide.

Every Catholic's favorite book of the Bible is Tobit. Oops, I've said too much.posted by octobersurprise at 9:16 PM on October 11, 2012

Mitt just walked onto stage on Letterman again - "Live from New York, it's Saturday night!"posted by triggerfinger at 9:17 PM on October 11, 2012

If you take the Latin prefix mal- (wrong, bad) and put it with the Greek αρχή (basis, principle), you probably aren't any closer to the actual provenance of the word, but... malarkey!posted by droomoord at 9:18 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

octobersurprise: "I really want him to start talking about his popular tome, Tobin's Spirit Guide.

Every Catholic's favorite book of the Bible is Tobit. Oops, I've said too much."

How awkward would it be if Biden gets really confident with a win this election and thinks he can run for President in 2016, where he has to run against Hillary?posted by amuseDetachment at 9:22 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

*: I mean he's conservative and he's a dumbass, not that he's a dumbass because he's conservative, or (necessarily) that he's a conservative because he's a dumbass

clarknova, I am highly confident that this guy's dumbassitude is a real thing.

No I meant who were you trying to convince the two aren't causally related.
It's a rhetorical question. You don't need to answer.

What the hell are you even talking about now clarknova, you keep on acting like Romney is a foregone conclusion when a week ago he was all but destroyed in every credible electoral vote tally.

I was acting that way before that oh-so-shocking turnaround, too.

With Ryan on his ticket Romney has the full spectrum of the conservative electorate. He has an order of magnitude more money than his opponent. He has several iterations of favorable redistricting on his side. He has an extensive and highly successful campaign of voter suppression in his favor. He has the allegiance of the largest manufacturer of unaccountable voting machines. And if it comes to a Supreme Court case he has a bench majority.

If you can explain how Barack's campaign transcends these advantages by all means let us know.posted by clarknova at 9:24 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

How awkward would it be if Biden gets really confident with a win this election and thinks he can run for President in 2016, where he has to run against Hillary?
posted by amuseDetachment at 9:22 PM on October 11 [+]

Awkward. But I think Biden is headed for well-deserved retirement.posted by murfed13 at 9:25 PM on October 11, 2012

We have the smallest Navy since before WWI? That is so ridiculous isn't it? Are we going keep hundreds of unneeded active destroyers and battleships when a few aircraft carriers and missile boats have orders of magnitude more power? That's like saying we need to increase the military budget because we have the smallest cavalry since the civil war.posted by Golden Eternity at 9:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [24 favorites]

But I think Biden is headed for well-deserved retirement.

I agree. I love Biden, he's honest, he's smart, he's experienced, but I don't think he's Presidential material, nor do I think he wants the job.posted by HuronBob at 9:29 PM on October 11, 2012

Romney was all over the moderator last week, interrupting him left & right. No one said anything about that last week. Talking heads are already accusing Biden of bad debate behavior.
posted by murfed13 at 9:55 PM on October 11

Yeah, this. I reallly hope Stewart calls out some talking heads on this tomorrow.posted by marsha56 at 9:32 PM on October 11, 2012

That was an awesome debate! Biden was on and he was great! Really, really great! He defended the Obama-Biden record, called out Romney and Ryan's bullshit (he literally called it bullshit!), and showed amazing energy for a 69 year old man.

Martha Raddatz did a great job. I didn't think a network news reporter would have it in her, but she's covered some of the most dangerous areas of the world, so two politicians are not going shake her. Plus, I think the right wing made a serious mistake trying to mau-mau her before the debates.

The worse moment for Ryan, I thought, among many bad moments, was when he said to Biden, "I know you're under a lot of duress". To me, that came off as a bit of an outburst and a clear sign that Biden had gotten under his skin.

Biden may have overdid his laughing and interrupting shtick just a tad, but I think it was the correct strategy. Romney and Ryan are master liars and gaslighters. You have to break their rhythm so each lie can be isolated and rebutted.

One of my favorite parts was when Biden described future Obama-appointed Supreme Court judges as "open-minded". Ryan asked, "You have a litmus test?" Biden: "No litmus test. I said "open-minded". Try harder, Sonny-boy, this is Biden we're talking about.

One last thing to add: I don't think it's as important for undecideds to "like" Biden. What was important was that Biden tore strips off the Romney's hide.posted by Bokmakierie at 9:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [13 favorites]

I agree. I love Biden, he's honest, he's smart, he's experienced, but I don't think he's Presidential material, nor do I think he wants the job.

P.S. It looks like a) Sully has climbed off the ledge and is back inside the building now, and b) He promised to, at the conclusion of the debate, take a shot of Jager for every time Ryan lied and is now quite drunk.posted by ob1quixote at 9:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

From the Guardian liveblog: "Axelrod portrayed it as clear win for Biden. "It was like looking at the school principal debating the student president."" Ouch.posted by shortfuse at 9:35 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Talking heads are already accusing Biden of bad debate behavior.

In fact, what came across was a man who cared deeply about how policies enacted by government would affect regular people. This is a stark contrast to Romney who thinks it's normal to flip flop all over the place, whenever it's expedient. Biden clearly showed his disgust at that type of politics.posted by Bokmakierie at 9:37 PM on October 11, 2012 [16 favorites]

I agree. Biden has always struck me as sincere. More so than Obama, if I may say so.posted by murfed13 at 9:39 PM on October 11, 2012

How awkward would it be if Biden gets really confident with a win this election and thinks he can run for President in 2016, where he has to run against Hillary?

He won't run if Hillary runs. But if Hillary doesn't run, I thought it was a foregone conclusion that he would run.posted by Bokmakierie at 9:40 PM on October 11, 2012

At the very least, I want him to run to make the primary debates amazing.posted by jason_steakums at 9:41 PM on October 11, 2012

He has an order of magnitude more money than his opponent.

This isn't true. Do you know what "order of magnitude" means?

He has several iterations of favorable redistricting on his side.

This affects Congressional elections, not Presidential ones. With the exception of Maine and Nebraska, electoral votes are awarded state-wide; so gerrymandering doesn't affect them.

He has an extensive and highly successful campaign of voter suppression in his favor.

Not really. Most of them have been delayed or weakened in court.

He has the allegiance of the largest manufacturer of unaccountable voting machines. And if it comes to a Supreme Court case he has a bench majority.

All of which were true in 2008 as well.

If you can explain how Barack's campaign transcends these advantages by all means let us know.

I guess you know what you're talking about, given that you are on a first-name basis with the President.

Stop chicken little-ing. The first debate didn't alter the fundamentals of the race. Obama has somewhere between a 70% and 80% chance of being reelected.posted by spaltavian at 9:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

He'd be what, 73 in 2016? That's second term Reagan age. I kind of see Biden living to 120 and staying in politics forever and ever, but that's pretty old for a presidential candidate.posted by sonmi at 9:48 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

In four years, I pray. He's too old. The Dems would want someone who could last two terms if they do well. Biden would be 82 in 2024. Maybe he could run for the Senate again. I think he actually loves the job. Andrew Johnson went back to the Senate after his presidency.posted by Golden Eternity at 9:50 PM on October 11, 2012

I actually prefer Biden in the number two spot. I think he'd make a fine president, but as VP he has more freedom to Biden it up to his heart's content. As prez he'd have more constraints, so we'd have fewer opportunities to savor the full flavor of Joe. Which would be sad.posted by Superplin at 9:53 PM on October 11, 2012 [10 favorites]

He'd be two weeks shy of his 74th birthday on election day. I highly doubt he'll run. Hillary Clinton would be 69; probably too old as well. (I'd predict the nomination is hers if she wants it, but I'd have serious doubts about winning the general.)

The two near certain candidates at this point are Governor Martin O'Malley of Maryland and Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York. I really can't stand Cuomo, and I've been mostly please with O'Malley here in Maryland.posted by spaltavian at 9:55 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Yes, Hillary is almost too old and Biden has 5 years on her.posted by murfed13 at 9:55 PM on October 11, 2012

Specifically saying "I am very aware of how government policies effect americans lives and how they can save or harm them. I was offended by Ryan's lack of any clear policy at a time where Americans should know how the Presidential nominees are planning to accomplish things. He was disgracing the forum of debate and conversation as he wasn't speaking honestly or truthfully, and I felt it was my duty to correct him."

Or something akin to "Dude pissed me off he was lying so goddamn much, you're lucky I didn't go all Buzz Aldrin vs Moon Conspiracy theoryist on the boy, thats how much sense he was making and how much it had offended all the work myself, and other Americans had put in to making this country better for everyone."posted by mrzarquon at 10:00 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Considering that Mario was deterred from running because of a "mob ties" whisper compaing I hope Andrew runs just to set things right. Would be great to have a president from New York, even if he is from Queens, who's last name ends in a vowel.posted by Ad hominem at 10:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Elizabeth Warren is having a hard time against Scott Brown in Massachusetts. If you can't win MA with a Democrat, your chances in the general are slim.posted by sophist at 10:01 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

>Elizabeth Warren is having a hard time against Scott Brown in Massachusetts. If you can't win MA with a Democrat, your chances in the general are slim.

To be fair, the GOP knows they stole that seat on a whim, so they are funneling any money they would have spent on Romney in that state into Brown's campaign instead.posted by mrzarquon at 10:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

Would be great to have a president from New York, even if he is from Queens, who's last name ends in a vowel.

I read Mario as Marlo, and was confused because Marlo is from Baltimore. Omar for VP.posted by clearly at 10:04 PM on October 11, 2012 [9 favorites]

Wow, Sarah Palin actually had the cajones to accuse Raddatz of letting Joe Biden talk over Ryan. Did she not watch last week's debate?posted by wierdo at 10:09 PM on October 11, 2012

Elizabeth Warren is having a hard time against Scott Brown in Massachusetts. If you can't win MA with a Democrat, your chances in the general are slim.

Whose chances? I can't imagine an answer that makes this comment make sense, but still.

Anyway, Massachusetts is extremely blue in Presidential elections, but state-wide offices are not so lopsided. Two of the last three governors have been Republican, for example. This is possible because any successful Republican in Mass. runs well to the left of the national GOP.

Finally, Warren is most likely going to win, but the closeness of the election doesn't say anything about the 2012 cycle in general. Brown is an incumbent, which brings a lot of advantages, and he himself won in an idiosyncratic election. Brown doesn't match the national GOP profile, and because of the Consumer Protection Bureau fight, Warren is somewhat of a known quantity.

Nothing about that race tells you anything about any other race.posted by spaltavian at 10:13 PM on October 11, 2012

Hey, at least Palin has a career as a hack talking head shill on cable news.

If Romney doesn't win, Ryan's political future is pretty much over, he'll never be able to do anything above tenuously representing his district in the House. It's especially clear now why the smart Republicans stayed the hell away from a VP offer.posted by amuseDetachment at 10:13 PM on October 11, 2012

It means the product of ten and the original number. Do you know what "Super PAC" means? I'm guessing you do but it's a thought you're deliberately repressing.

I guess you know what you're talking about, given that you are on a first-name basis with the President.

Oh zing. You really made your case there.

All of which were true in 2008 as well.

When even conservatives were sick of their own bullshit. Those people that voted for Bush two terms in a row? Who pretended they knew him not during the McCain/Obama race? They've forgotten again and now they're all voting Mitt.

Stop chicken little-ing. The first debate didn't alter the fundamentals of the race. Obama has somewhere between a 70% and 80% chance of being reelected.

Yeah. Maybe you should actually read the thread. You might have spotted the link I already posted. That "between a 70% and 80% chance" is now down to roughly 66%. Far from "not altering the fundamentals of the race", this precipitous drop in support you haven't even noticed was a direct result of the first debate.

And I didn't even mention the way Barack fragmented his base by reneging on campaign promises (whereas Romney has consolidated his). Or how he squandered all the OWS momentum he could have leveraged by allowing conservative governors to indulge in police-state crackdowns. Or how he lets his opponents walk all over him in practically every rhetorical battle. Or how he failed to do anything with a super-majority except capitulate to high finance. Or how the man behaves like the personification of the archetypical democrat, "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory", his 2008 shoe-in not withstanding.

I understand your wishful thinking. I really do. I want you to be right and me to be wrong. Come election day I want to eat that crow. I pray your wings take dream.posted by clarknova at 10:14 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Oh, I liked that article a lot, homunculous. Funny/witty it is. TY.posted by rmmcclay at 10:15 PM on October 11, 2012

The punchline from that withering and amusing Esquire piece homunculus links above is tasty:

For years, Paul Ryan has been the shining champion of some really terrible ideas, and of a dystopian vision of the political commonwealth in which the poor starve and the elderly die ghastly, impoverished deaths, while all the essential elements of a permanent American oligarchy were put in place. This has garnered him loving notices from a lot of people who should have known better. The ideas he could explain were bad enough, but the profound ignorance he displayed on Thursday night on a number of important questions, including when and where the United States might wind up going to war next, and his blithe dismissal of any demand that he be specific about where he and his running mate are planning to take the country generally, was so positively terrifying that it calls into question Romney's judgment for putting this unqualified greenhorn on the ticket at all. Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.

You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?

Lipstick.

but you know, I still think Ryan scored points with, to be indelicate, the Dummies. For us smart, educated, and devastatingly good-looking Metafilter types with our honed, raised-pinky refinement, there was a good bit of bullshit-dispersion going on. But I completely understand if the Republican faithful swooned, because commentary like the bit I quoted above aside, and no matter how loathsome the realities of his policies might actually be, I don't think he embarrassed himself at all.

but you know, I still think Ryan scored points with, to be indelicate, the Dummies.

Of course he did. He could of (insert some gross physical act here, because I can't bring myself to post it) and that demographic would have cheered and experienced some right wing orgasmic response.posted by HuronBob at 10:26 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

Look, as far as I'm concerned, if these debates are all that it takes to win elections in the US, you might as well close shop and start a new reality television show called America's Idle Rich or something, and elect people through phone.posted by the cydonian at 10:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [14 favorites]

We have the smallest Navy since before WWI? That is so ridiculous isn't it?

Republican talking points often gravitate to One, Two, Few, Many, More reasoning. It's mostly for crap in terms of logic, but it makes for some fine talking points. There's no way my mother-in-law (who has gone all staunch republican) could ever hope to follow arguments about projected power, multi-role aircraft capability or inter-theater response times but she gets that 20 is bigger than 10.

Also, look at where the naval construction yards are. It's a lot like his commentary about coal in the first debate.posted by Kid Charlemagne at 10:29 PM on October 11, 2012 [7 favorites]

2nding the people saying Warren's small lead (vs Obama's lead in MA) isn't really indicative of anything. Martha Coakley is living proof that just being a democrat isn't enough to win a senate seat. Massachusetts is weird in that lots of people here like to elect republicans occasionally to keep things 'balanced.' And outside of Boston and parts of western MA there lots of people are very into the 'independent thinker with a TRUCK' image that Scott Brown pushes hard-- he's pretty much running as an independent, pro-choice candidate and distancing himself far from the GOP as possible. Warren's also a novice to campaigning (and isn't super good at it, honestly, despite a great debate performance earlier).

Personally, I don't think Warren will go for the presidency. I think Deval Patrick will, though.posted by sonmi at 10:32 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I still think Ryan scored points with, to be indelicate, the Dummies.

Yeah. The dummies are who Ryan is there for. He appeals to people like my farmer neighbor: who lives by the grace of farm subsidies and whose cancer-riddled six year old escaped recision by the grace of Obamacare. And who still wants to end gubmint handouts and 'repeal and replace'. Who wouldn't have voted Elephant this time because Romney is too lib'rul. Whose neighbors and neighbor's neighbors and neighbors' neighbors' neighbors all think the same.

You may want to self-deprecate in some genteel way, but this nation is stuffed to the gills with hick morons who embody every stereotype you think it's improper to take seriously. People you are the intellectual superior to in nearly every way. Go to one of their rallies. Listen to their gorilla hoots of "USA USA USA!" Feel their grotesque, triumphalist energy. The dummies are real, frothing, vital, and hungry.

Speaking of "Obamacare", I guess it's okay to call it that now as Barack has tried to pull off some kind of verbal Jujitsu by using the term, thus validating the conservative frame. Now there's a fucking dummy for you.posted by clarknova at 10:34 PM on October 11, 2012 [8 favorites]

Oh right. I remember now. I'd just repressed it. See how hard it is to face facts? Even I can't bear to do it, and I had practically nothing invested in him.posted by clarknova at 10:38 PM on October 11, 2012

You may want to self-deprecate in some genteel way, but this nation is stuffed to the gills with hick morons who embody every stereotype you think it's improper to take seriously. People you are the intellectual superior to in nearly every way. Go to one of their rallies. Listen to their gorilla hoots of "USA USA USA!" Feel their grotesque, triumphalist energy. The dummies are real, frothing, vital, and hungry.

Hell, I grew up in rural northern BC. I am very familiar with the dummies comma Canuckstyle. I have many old friends who proudly count themselves part of the cohort. I have very few illusions on that count, for what it's worth.posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:40 PM on October 11, 2012 [1 favorite]

If you can explain how Barack's campaign transcends these advantages by all means let us know.

clarknova makes some great points, but I still would like to point out that Obama leads projected Electoral College votes. In a first-past-the-post system, popular vote is only useful for a newscycle searching for a horserace.posted by KokuRyu at 10:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

I figured Ryan attaching himself to Romney 2012 would be the death of his political aspirations but even I didn't think he'd deliver the death blow to himself.posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:47 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

And I didn't even mention the way Barack fragmented his base by reneging on campaign promises (whereas Romney has consolidated his)

It means the product of ten and the original number. Do you know what "Super PAC" means? I'm guessing you do but it's a thought you're deliberately repressing.

Let's look at some actual numbers on Open Secrets. I added up each one that raised at least $1 million in a spreadsheet. The ones Open Secrets described as conservative totaled $247,129,143. The ones described as liberal totaled $103,362,885. It's twice as much, not an order of magnitude. Also, notice that a lot of the ones in the conservative column are left over from the primary.

Far from "not altering the fundamentals of the race", this precipitous drop in support you haven't even noticed was a direct result of the first debate.

So, in other words, the President has maintained the lead he's had for nearly a year? Including in Ohio and Virginia, states Romney can't win without. We're back more or less to where we were before Charlotte. Plus we're going to get another narrative about Obama "comes swinging" back after the next two debates. Journalists write lazy stories; which is why the debate "loss" got blown out of proportion to begin with.

When even conservatives were sick of their own bullshit. Those people that voted for Bush two terms in a row? Who pretended they knew him not during the McCain/Obama race? They've forgotten again and now they're all voting Mitt.

Conservatives have never been sick of their own bullshit. Obama didn't win in 2008 because he won conservative votes; he won because he expanded the Democratic base in ways that's never happened before. When you do the breakouts, you see that Obama's numbers didn't look that different than Kerry's (with the exception of Hispanics). Obama just got a lot more of those people to votes. And Hispanics have a very stark choice this year, so not worried about their numbers.

And I didn't even mention the way Barack fragmented his base by reneging on campaign promises

This is a pretty typical misreading of what the Democratic base is. The net-roots is not the base. Obama spent the spring and summer nakedly shoring up the blocs of his base. Gays, Hispanics, African-Americans, college-educated women and union households all had Christmas early this year.

spaltavian and clarknova, you guys both make interesting points that, taken together, are thought-provoking. It's kind of a shame there is a personal element involved in the back-and-forth. It's also damned impressive that spaltavian did some research and compiled a spreadsheet just to make a MF comment!posted by KokuRyu at 10:56 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's also a factor that Romney pays more for advertising, sometimes by a very large margin. Another factor is that Obama lost the air-headed and easily-swayed vote; making further inroads in swing states is going to be progressively harder for Romney. The votes he gained were the people who were going to vote for Romney just a couple of months ago, despite all of the problems with his background. Now he needs to win over people who were *not* going to vote for him precisely because of his background and mistakes.posted by rainy at 11:03 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

I added up each one that raised at least $1 million in a spreadsheet. The ones Open Secrets described as conservative totaled $247,129,143.

I expanded it to every Super Pac on the list that has raised at least $100. Here is what we get:

It's also damned impressive that spaltavian did some research and compiled a spreadsheet just to make a MF comment!

Would have been better, but I'm using a trackpad because I'm on vacation.

It's kind of a shame there is a personal element involved in the back-and-forth.

Yeah, I'm sorry for the "Do you know what orders of magnitude means?" phrasing. Wasn't necessary.posted by spaltavian at 11:12 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's also a factor that Romney pays more for advertising, sometimes by a very large margin.

That's a very interesting and astute observation. I've heard it before but have not seen a whole lot of detail; do you have anything I where I can learn more about what's going on with that?posted by spaltavian at 11:13 PM on October 11, 2012

[Comment deleted; if you can't answer a question without sarcastically calling someone a racist, maybe avoid commenting until you can do better.]posted by taz(staff) at 11:18 PM on October 11, 2012

Last thought before bed regarding homunculus' link: I always only knew Charlie Pierce as a kinda funny guy on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, but he's been knocking it out of the park this election season.posted by Phire at 11:20 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

spaltavian: unfortunately that's just something I've seen referenced in the old thread. I think the nature of the difference in ad costs is such that it would be hard to estimate precisely if this will play much role. I've heard it differs by each local station, etc.posted by rainy at 11:22 PM on October 11, 2012

Let's look at some actual numbers on Open Secrets. I added up each one that raised at least $1 million in a spreadsheet. The ones Open Secrets described as conservative totaled $247,129,143. The ones described as liberal totaled $103,362,885. It's twice as much, not an order of magnitude. Also, notice that a lot of the ones in the conservative column are left over from the primary. \

THAT is a fair point. One of the things about SuperPACs is you don't know how much money is really being spent. For example I notice The Chamber of Commerce isn't in there, and it's well known they're funneling enormous quantities towards Romney.

But whatever! If I assume Romney being high-finance's first choice means ten times more money than we know about is being spent on him, I'm obviously engaging in Rumsfeld-style soviet paranoia, which is a crackpot fantasy I can't back up. I'm just going by the advertising for Romney I see in the Denver metro area, which is easily ten times more than the same for Barack. And this isn't even a region Romney seriously expects to win.

But whatever! The numbers are on your side. You've proved I used the term "order of magnitude" loosely, and maybe I'm even too ign'nt to know what it means. However, just out of the money we know about, you've also proved that Romney still has vastly more of it.
Wait. What was your point again?

So, in other words, the President has maintained the lead he's had for nearly a year?

Unless we assume (with little precedent) this VP debate pulled Obama's fat out of the fire, extend the trend which began with the first debate just five more days and Obama hasn't maintained shit. But we'll see by Tuesday. Again I'm hoping you're right and I'm wrong here.

I love how only three sentences after this, you accuse me of wishful thinking.
I fail to see how identifying an opportunity missed is wishful thinking. My grandmother could have leveraged the OWS momentum, and she's dead and stupid.

To win an election in this country, you need WS. Leveraging OWS while still getting money from WS, that's not 12 dimension chess, that's like 12^12 dimension chess.posted by rainy at 11:31 PM on October 11, 2012

Clarknova, unless Romney plans on buying 24 hours of ads in the final stretch, we're approaching a point where a 1.01 billion dollar campaign doesn't really have a material advantage over a 1 billion dollar campaign. And Romney isn't really spending the money very well; Obama still has more offices in the swing states. The air war is important, but Obama can hold his own there and has a more sophisticated ground game.

This is what has surprised me this election; the GOP didn't really even try to model Obama's 2008 operation. They're going to blow everything in the last two weeks; that might work in a cycle with a lot of undecideds, but this is clearly a turn-out election. Plus, nearly half the country will have voted by then. Ads are really good for driving up your opponents negatives, but even people who have given up on Obama don't hate him. Romney has been pretty open about his "more out of sorrow than anger" narrative. They've acknowledged demonizing Obama won't work well, but they are still spending their money that way.

extend the trend which began with the first debate just five more days and Obama hasn't maintained shit.

Dude, look at the Ohio numbers. Seriously, what's Romney's map now? He's a favorite in Florida by Virginia and Nevada are gone. He's got to be feeling good about the latest Colorado numbers but he's got to shake something else loose, and we've seen his strongest punch at this point. Eighteen months ago no one was thinking Obama would be a 2:1 favorite in mid-October.posted by spaltavian at 11:43 PM on October 11, 2012 [2 favorites]

George Washington didn't.

That's not too helpful. FDR dealt with a much worse economic situation by setting up the New Deal, even in spite of an attempted coup d'état by Wall Street. The historical relevance is clear. What is the point of this kind of response?posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:50 PM on October 11, 2012 [3 favorites]

What is the point of this kind of response?

If someone has to explain the joke it makes it much less funny.

Not that it was a real zinger or anything.posted by clarknova at 12:01 AM on October 12, 2012

I think all the self-congratulatory stuff is really interesting. Honestly, I walked away from the debate thinking that Ryan absolutely took it, except for the fumble on specifics of the tax plan, and the fact that he looked intensely young for some inexplicable reason. The Democratic supporters here absolutely think Biden took it.

I found Biden's jolly-uncle performance completely undeserving of being one illness away from the White House. I thought Ryan's focus on the things that were important to independent voters was on message. I found him personable, earnest, and idealistic.

Sure, as a political operative myself, I also thought every move in this was intensely calculated both on Ryan's side and Biden's, but even given that, I thought that Ryan scored well on the "who looks more like a vice presidential candidate" card, which tends to also appeal to undecided voters.

I did find Biden rude, just as I found both Romney and Obama rude last week. I would love to see a return to civil debate in this country, and I think Biden absolutely did not deliver it. Even if Biden was cursing like a fictionalized American grandpa telling kids to get off his lawn with their malarkey and their "stuff."

I also appreciated that Ryan praised women twice in the debate, even when he didn't agree with them. He acknowledged that the moderator had been to Afghanistan more than himself or Biden, and he praised some of Hilary Clinton's work. He was genial and collegial, and I appreciated that deeply.

But there's a lack of awareness of that here. Paul Ryan had some amazing moments in the debates too - like his comment that Biden of all people should know that gaffes are not necessarily reflective of true statements about character and beliefs. I am honestly shocked that that was not even mentioned as it was happening, but it was a "holy shit' moment indeed.posted by corb at 12:15 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Dude, look at the Ohio numbers. Seriously, what's Romney's map now?

I no longer have any kind of faith in maps or statistical breakdowns or any of the rest of the horse race point spread bullshit we use to rationally estimate electoral outcomes now. Bush stole it twice, in spite of all the wonky hoohaw that cried "unpossible!" Romney just stole the Iowa caucus from Paul*, thus securing himself the nomination via pump priming.

The Elephants have been rigging up the system in their favor for the last twelve years. The Donkeys flapped their ears over their eyes and generally ignored it when they held power. They don't have the well-oiled, Koch-fueld strategy machine the republicans do, and generally behave like a stoned prep school student council. If you really think the Republicans plan to let things play out naturally, and the Dems are going to successfully resist on the strength of their tarnished principles.. well. I wish I could have some of what you're smoking. It's probably quite soothing.

Except that Biden quickly neutralized it with "I always say what I mean" or something to that effect.

Yeah, but that's not really neutralized to anyone who knows the shit Biden's actually said - I'd find that more scary, not less.

The other thing to remember too is that Biden is showing his age, and is a bit out of touch on cultural touchstones. He's talking about Jack Kennedy as his zinger, a reference from a debate when many of the new voters he needs to engage weren't even born yet. (And how is Dukakis doing these days, anyway?) He's talking about Bork, who again, is from a fight they were too young to know. He's referencing things that only either very aware people know about, or people over a certain age and culture - an age and culture overwhelmingly voting for Romney - are involved in. He is not appealing to independents and young voters with this stuff.posted by corb at 12:49 AM on October 12, 2012

corb: "He's talking about Jack Kennedy as his zinger, a reference from a debate when many of the new voters he needs to engage weren't even born yet."

I think the audience's (and Ryan's) laughter got the point across pretty well.posted by wierdo at 12:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Underlined the point, even.posted by wierdo at 12:51 AM on October 12, 2012

corb : He's referencing things that only either very aware people know about,

People with different political leanings see things differently? No surprised faces needed. Let's please not start with this sort of commentary; there are plenty of issues to discuss without getting personal.posted by taz at 12:53 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

It seems like perceptions of who won the debate really depend on who you already support - or at least it was like that for me. Listening to Ryan try and defend his positions was peppered with 'where the hell did that come from?' comments on his argumentation.

That said, I think a less critical viewing of the debates might have yielded the judgement that Ryan won. So eloquent! (But arguing in circles.)

So ready with answers! (Well, non-answers mostly.)

So earnest and VP-looking! (My friend and I found it weird that he was so Bambi-eyed and 'I AM EARNEST PEOPLE LOOK INTO MY CRAZILY-BLUE EYES.'*)

*Jokes aside though, it's probably better to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he isn't doing it to accomplish emotional appeal.posted by undue influence at 12:57 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

People with different political leanings see things differently? No surprised faces needed. Let's please not start with this sort of commentary; there are plenty of issues to discuss without getting personal"

He's talking about Bork, who again, is from a fight they were too young to know.

Biden seemed to be focusing his words so as to communicate to people 35 and over. I'm 37, know who Bork is, and I know exactly what Biden is communicating by referencing this arch-conservative in the context of healthcare rights.

He is not appealing to independents and young voters with this stuff.

Young voters, maybe, but I'm sure a good number of independents in my age range and above would understand the import of the Bork reference, whatever their personal impression.posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:59 AM on October 12, 2012 [6 favorites]

Yeah, there's nothing worse than a politician who won't pander :(

Oh, let's face it, they all pander. But I'm not talking about who is the more morally upstanding candidate, I'm specifically talking about their debate performance and how it comes off. Ryan hit all of the points that have been resonating with undecided and likely voters lately, and they believe are responsible for his poll bounce. It's a strategy that remains to be seen how well it will work, but it is a smart, focused move.

Ryan is setting things up for Romney in this debate - as a man of quiet charity too modest to talk about it himself, as a human who cares about people. He is setting Romney up as a bipartisan moderate. Because right now, where Romney lags is in his Uncanny Valley impression of a human.
Ryan repeatedly was on-message, which is something I cannot stress enough in speaking in any form of media. Yes, we, the people who are fiercely debating this in the wee hours of the morning, we are dissecting the tiny details. Most people are going to come off with impressions that they don't even fully understand, and one or two pieces. And Ryan, by repeating the same ones, has ensured that his at least are remembered.

(My friend and I found it weird that he was so Bambi-eyed and 'I AM EARNEST PEOPLE LOOK INTO MY CRAZILY-BLUE EYES.'*)

Did they cut to the cameras of them solo on the screen like that for anyone else? I found it weird too, they did it for Biden once or twice as well. It's almost like the TV was trying to say DRAMATIC MOMENT NOW PLEASE.

That said, I will confess that Paul Ryan's "my little bean" performance was the most vomit-inducing thing I heard all week.

Biden seemed to be focusing his words so as to communicate to people 35 and over. I'm 37, know who Bork is, and I know exactly what Biden is communicating by referencing this arch-conservative in the context of healthcare rights.

Oh yes, absolutely, I completely agree with you one hundred percent. I'm just curious why - I thought Romney had that portion of the electorate mainly locked up with the exception of strong Democrats? Are there new polls out? If it was a strategy, what was the purpose.posted by corb at 1:02 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I did find Biden rude, just as I found both Romney and Obama rude last week. I would love to see a return to civil debate in this country

Debaters are instructed to hang onto the mic for dear life, and this strategy isn't going to get less rude any time soon. The best solution to this is technological: a chess-clock style timer that controls their respective microphone switches.

This is why Robert invented his Rules of Order. Egotists who think they deserve enormous power are never going to converse politely of their own accord. Force them to speak in turn, however, and they'll govern themselves accordingly.posted by clarknova at 1:07 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Missed the debate live but just watched the replay on YouTube while reading the 1478 comments here (you wordy bastards, much love) and I am so gratified that the good fairy wot lives in the sky saw fit to grant my every wish. What an excellent evening.posted by Purposeful Grimace at 1:32 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Whew, just made it to the bottom of the thread. I didn't get to stream the debate live so I was very much glad to watch the replay with y'all running the commentary alongside!posted by TwoWordReview at 2:33 AM on October 12, 2012

i dunno dudes andy hiller said that ryan won and that dude has the 'hiller instinct' and a bad toupee so he must know his politics stuff like whoaposted by robocop is bleeding at 2:58 AM on October 12, 2012

I'm sorry, laconic skeuomorph, but I think you just made a blank post. Change your default character encoding to ASCII instead of Unicode and try again.posted by clarknova at 3:47 AM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

Flunkie: I mean he's conservative and he's a dumbass, not that he's a dumbass because he's conservative, or (necessarily) that he's a conservative because he's a dumbass

In the words of the British philosopher and political scientist, John Stuart Mill:I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.posted by syzygy at 4:13 AM on October 12, 2012 [15 favorites]

like his comment that Biden of all people should know that gaffes are not necessarily reflective of true statements about character and beliefs.

This line of reasoning is effective only insofar as we agree on what constitutes a "gaffe." Romney's 47% comments strike me more as a moment of unvarnished truth than a gaffe.posted by audi alteram partem at 4:15 AM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

Sure, as a political operative myself, I also thought every move in this was intensely calculated both on Ryan's side and Biden's

This is highly relevant: corb, does this mean you are paid for political work? I don't know how else to parse this statement?posted by winna at 4:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [14 favorites]

Let's see, when Obama is reasonable and Romney is aggressive, they call it for Republicans.

And when Ryan is reasonable and Biden is aggressive, they call it for Republicans.

You might almost think the media wants to build market share on this topic or something.

Anyway, the only thing missing from the debate was a flustered Ryan shouting "San Dimas high school football rules!"posted by seanmpuckett at 4:29 AM on October 12, 2012 [23 favorites]

I found Biden's jolly-uncle performance completely undeserving of being one illness away from the White House.

The thing is that Biden is a known quantity. You're simply not going to be able to make a credible case that a 60ish man who was in the Senate for 30 years and widely respected as a wonk and the foreign policy go-to-guy is "undeserving." He didn't have to prove himself to be one heartbeat away from the presidency in this debate because he already proved himself in 2008. He also doesn't have Cheney's problem of being seen as "the devious and dangerous puppet master."

Weirdly, Ryan held his own the best in the beginning with Libya. After that, it was all downhill for him. His problem is, essentially, that he has always played to friendly audiences, and this was the first time he got called to account for his plans and beliefs.

So much of Ryan's problems can be traced to the fact that he came of age in the early 1990s and never grew up-- it was an era where libertarianism was seen as the "intellectual" belief system, where privatizing everything was seen as the solution to every problem, and where even Democrats seems to be leaning in that direction (eg, NAFTA), and where everyone would have a "dynamic" job and be their own career entrepreneur. Plus, everyone wore baggy clothes. Ryan, having been in Congress almost this entire time, was isolated from the reality of this juvenile, trendy libertarianism and college-age affection for Ayn Rand that would have tempered most people's understanding with wisdom and experience. Who else would think that "unleashing the power of the free market" on the uninsurable and hireable (ie, Medicare recipients) would be a good idea?posted by deanc at 4:39 AM on October 12, 2012 [26 favorites]

except for the fumble on specifics of the tax plan

It was not a fumble. There are no specifics. corb, if you vote for this clown because you think he was 'earnest' while lying to you, you deserve everything you get. I just feel sorry for the poor fuckers you're trying to drag down with you. I'm also disappointed that, as someone big on personal autonomy, your only takeaway from Ryan on reproductive rights was his sickening bean story, and not his evident intent to make abortion illegal.posted by howfar at 4:42 AM on October 12, 2012 [21 favorites]

I found Biden's jolly-uncle performance completely undeserving of being one illness away from the White House.

If you took from that his personality, and not his obvious intelligence and his long-term expertise on budget negotiations, foreign policy, and governing in general...I don't know what to say.

I found Biden's jolly-uncle performance completely undeserving of being one illness away from the White House.

He's been in that position for four years, and done a fine job.

Paul Ryan showed a staggering lack of knowledge and insight into foreign policy, and a willingness to put our country's troops in a dangerous position for no reason.posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

I liked that the moderator started off with pushback about the whitehouse previously lying/misinforming about the embassy attacks, and I like how she just put it right out there that Romney and Ryan haven't been willing or able to lay out a single specific loophole they're planning to miraculously balance the budget with by closing, but the war section -- her 'area of expertise'? -- I found troublesome.

It's possible I missed this discussion above (I haven't noticed anyone talking about it here or elsewhere), but "Which would be worse: a war in Iran or Iran getting a nuclear bomb?" is such a slimy, defense-industry-beholden/-besotted question for a debate moderator to interject. And I wasn't sure if, in general, viewers would find Biden's reply persuasive enough, that you can always find people in the military who will say they need a higher budget, but that they're going to go ahead and trust the leadership when they say things can be streamlined. (I think the moderator even interjected/sneered[?] at that point that Biden, of course, means the military's civilian leadership, or the top brass who answer directly to the white house [civilian] chain of command.) I think maybe she was a bit shocked at neither of the candidates really buying into the War-With-Iran-Is-Imminent/Nuclear-Iran-Is-Imminent line that the media has been touting for a couple years now?posted by nobody at 4:52 AM on October 12, 2012

People will believe/see/think what they want to be true. Also known as Haters Gonna Hate.

Here's hoping the contradictions & guessing games of the media (who want to keep it close to keep eyeballs) might indicate it's dealing with an overdue disruption/correction, just as the GOP has been for the last 4 or 6 years.posted by yoga at 5:01 AM on October 12, 2012

I just realized there might be a more generous interpretation of the moderator's handling of the war topics: it's possible she knows through her reporting that the military in general (and probably the whitehouse leadership as well) is way more bellicose/alarmist toward/about Iran than they were having Biden portray. And so maybe what I saw as inappropriate war-mongering on her part was actually meant to be pushback against Biden misrepresenting the whitehouse's and/or military's stance?posted by nobody at 5:04 AM on October 12, 2012

Has anyone ever used the word "resonate," or any of its conjugates, in a political sense who hasn't been at least 50% crap?posted by JHarris at 5:25 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

And so maybe what I saw as inappropriate war-mongering on her part was actually meant to be pushback against Biden misrepresenting the whitehouse's and/or military's stance?

Very astute. She only sounds like a jingo-parroting halfwit. Beneath that facade of slavish cue-card recitation and bad plastic surgery decisions lives a prodigy of the fourth estate; a subtle, inexhaustible advocate for peace in our time.posted by clarknova at 5:32 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Man, next debate Tuesday. I'm a little worried I'm gonna have a stroke or something between now and voting day.posted by angrycat at 5:33 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

Very astute. She only sounds like a jingo-parroting halfwit. Beneath that facade of slavish cue-card recitation and bad plastic surgery decisions lives a prodigy of the fourth estate; a subtle, inexhaustible advocate for peace in our time.

It's only fair: she'd already insulted mine.posted by clarknova at 5:39 AM on October 12, 2012

Ryan hit all of the points that have been resonating with undecided and likely voters lately

Are we talking about another Paul Ryan or other undecided voters? If polls are any indication, what resonates with undecided voters was Mitt Romney's claims that his tax cuts wouldn't caost anything, that he would leave Obamacare mostly intact, and that he had no interest in passing legislation to restrict abortion. That is what resonates with people.

In short, it was the

"smooth evasion that says, 'of course we beleive these things. we believe in social security. we believe in work for the unemployed. we believe in saving homes. Cross our hearts and hope to die. We believe in all these things. But we do not like the way the present administration is doing that. Just turn them over to us. We will do ALL of them. We will do MORE of them. We will do them BETTER. And most important of all, the doing of them will not cost anybody anything.'" - FDR, 1936

What Paul Ryan actually has advocated for doesn't resonate with people at all! It wasn't until Mitt Romney completely denied everything he and Ryan have been campaigning on that things turned around for them polls for them. (Why do libertarians always think that people will flock to their ideas once they get a public hearing? Ron Paul didn't win a single primary!)posted by deanc at 5:43 AM on October 12, 2012 [12 favorites]

This is highly relevant: corb, does this mean you are paid for political work? I don't know how else to parse this statement?
posted by winna at 7:18 AM on October 12

this needs to be discussed over at MetaTalk. in my 12 years as a political blogger who has mingled with sundry political operatives, Republicans have a very well oiled "social media" machine that includes paying people to become commenters on sites like MetaFilter and Reddit. they understand the value of these sites from the SEO perspective --and that's why you find curiously unabated "site members" who will repeat over and over again the party's talking points.

i have no idea who is corb or any of the GOP-friendly people commenting on this site. i have no idea if corb is being paid specifically to post comments on this site. but it should clarify why people like corb will never be persuaded. as political operatives, they are paid --directly or indirectly-- to create a presence for the party in "GOP hostile" sites like Metafilter.

where i have seen clearly how PR/marketing operatives handled/outed over at Reddit has been in the fashion subreddits. moderators have created a whole process for these people to be identified so redditors understand they're representing brands. looks like they're having a bit of success with that.posted by liza at 5:45 AM on October 12, 2012 [25 favorites]

It's only fair: she'd already insulted mine.

Your looks? Really? Harsh. And here I was thinking you were just descending to misogyny.posted by howfar at 5:45 AM on October 12, 2012 [12 favorites]

He's talking about Bork, who again, is from a fight they were too young to know.

The young people who are actual watching the debate know who Bork is, and I have no idea why you think Joe Biden's primary target should be young people when he's on a ticket with Barack Obama. That bloc is already covered.posted by spaltavian at 5:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

Debaters are instructed to hang onto the mic for dear life, and this strategy isn't going to get less rude any time soon. The best solution to this is technological: a chess-clock style timer that controls their respective microphone switches.

In the most recent Brown/Warren debate the moderator assigned extra clock time to keep things even. He'd let them end the thought, then say "time's up, that was seven seconds over, so you get 37 seconds to respond." I think at one point he even awarded extra time because audience noise interrupted for a few seconds. It was very effective: they mostly got to finish their points, but they didn't win any subtle advantage by going over time. And I think they ended up being pretty disciplined about hitting the time limit most of the time.

Also -- if you enjoyed angry Joe Biden -- the Brown/Warren debate is just great watching in general. From my partisan eyes, Brown was doing a paper-thin folksy act and throwing personal attacks, while Warren just methodically and sincerely and effectively targeted his policy positions and values. It was pretty satisfying. I think she's found a way to own the intellectual thing.posted by jhc at 5:52 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

i have no idea who is corb or any of the GOP-friendly people commenting on this site. i have no idea if corb is being paid specifically to post comments on this site.

I think the paid operatives are the ones who post, "I am an undecided, middle of the road guy who almost always voted for Democrats, but ever since the debate, I'm outraged about that Obama apologizes for America, and I believe Mitt Romney has the can-do attitude to let America be America again!"

corb has always been up front about working at the intersection of grassroots public advocacy and the non-profit-industrial-complex-type jobs in NYC. There's nothing secret about that. And because that working environment is pretty unfriendly to her brand of right-wing propertarianism, MeFi is her outlet. What's impressive about MeFi is how we don't seem to attract talking-point-bots of the sort you see in the comments sections of some blogs and newspaper websites.posted by deanc at 5:54 AM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

I think there's some stuff here that should be going to Metatalk, guys.posted by howfar at 5:54 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

[Things that should be discussed in Metatalk should be discussed in Metatalk; no more of that here, please. Seriously.]posted by taz(staff) at 5:54 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Morning after thoughts:

Biden was great in a lot of ways, but the smirking and interrupting should have been toned down by about 30%. I understand why he did and admire his passion for wanting to call out bullshit, but those antics do wind up detracting from his overall excellent points. But damn it was nice to see GOP talking points called out.

Ryan was outclassed by Biden, but he managed to keep a generally cool head and fire off a fire zingers of his own, even if they fell flat. Ryan also wins dubious points for being able to lie with a straight face, while looking into the camera. That man is very good and while he got a spanking it would be short sighted to write him off as hack or that his career is over. He appeals to a certain segment of the population and the fact that his math doesn't add up does not matter to them. He looks and acts a certain part and that's what counts.

Martha Raddatz was a great moderator, one of the best I recall seeing in my lifetime of watching US Presidential related debates. She dug right into major issues, rightfully badgered both candidates when they were full of crap and herded them from one topic to another. Damn fine example that a woman can be just as tough and hard hitting as any man or even two at the same time. It's the person, not the sex or gender, that matters and Raddazt shone like a highly professional last night.

All that said, I'm still calling the election for Obama and for that to be definitively called by 11pm EST on election night. I don't feel confident yet predicting what the Electoral College count and popular vote will be, but obviously things are tightening.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:56 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Very astute. She only sounds like a jingo-parroting halfwit. Beneath that facade of slavish cue-card recitation and bad plastic surgery decisions lives a prodigy of the fourth estate; a subtle, inexhaustible advocate for peace in our time.

on the topic of Martha Raddatz, last night's moderator: SHE KNOCKED IT OUT OF THE PARK.

i actually had no problems whatsoever on how she pitched the foreign policy questions. she was hard hitting --relentless even-- in pushing the "war against Iran" narrative IN EXACTLY THE WAY SHE SHOULD HAVE. neocons are pushing for war and when she asked, what would be worse, another war of Iran getting the bomb, she --and we the audience-- got EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED TO HEAR: two distinctly different stances on the use of the US military in the Middle East.

Biden's reply was basically to say: we use the might when we need to but we're getting personnel the hell out of there because the US doesnt need another war.

Ryan's response? Israel is weak, we need to bomb the shit out of Iran AND OH BY THE WAY LET'S START WITH SYRIA FIRST.

if you weren't paying attention, Ryan was completely knocked off his socks by Martha's hawkish demeanor. she wouldn't take shit from him. in many instances she kept repeating "that's not specific enough". and she wasn't softballing Biden either, but it was clear she pushed Ryan into a corner. he came out looking like a little war drummer boy for the neo-cons while Biden was like, "fuck that! we don't need another war".

Raddatz blew me away last night and that was the overall consensus among political bloggers & pundits last night on twitter. go see my stream so you get a flavor of how excited people were.posted by liza at 5:59 AM on October 12, 2012 [17 favorites]

Awkward. But I think Biden is headed for well-deserved retirement.

I am kind of giddily excited to read his post-retirement memoir opus.

And if Hillary wants to run in 2016, I really don't think anyone's dumb enough to get in her way.posted by Theta States at 6:01 AM on October 12, 2012

This is a toxic wasteland of thought and it needs to be fucking quarantined for a a couple of decades, like Chernobyl. Then perhaps something of value can grow there again. Mother of God. What a waste.

This, exactly. Obama needs to run a giant billboard ad campaign based on these words from Biden:

on the topic of Martha Raddatz, last night's moderator: SHE KNOCKED IT OUT OF THE PARK.

She was really, really good. I'd love to see her do a presidential debate, preferably taking the spot reserved for "town hall" style debates so that we can relegate those to the dust bin of history where they belong.

She was pushed the candidates, asked specific questions, and didn't let them push her around the way Jim Lehrer did. On the one hand, I sort of wish we didn't talk about bombing Iran in a "if don't talk about it maybe it won't happen" way, but if you're going to do it, do it like that.

I've realized that I kind of hate debates* because they never live up to the promise of forcing people to defend and explain their positions and are easily sidetracked by soundbites, but last night was about as good as debate as I've seen and Raddatz gets a lot of the credit for that.

*Honestly, I'd kind of like the candidates to give prepared presentations to a council of interlocutors who were experts in a couple fields, like an appellate argument, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Eh, the Weekly Standard's right. It was a good debate that I might remember whenever I think about debates, but the ending of the Nats game was better. I understand that not everyone cares about the emotional arc of Werth's time in Washington as much as I do, but it was a really good game.posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:26 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Obama needs to run a giant billboard ad campaign based on these words from Biden: Their ideas are old. Their ideas are bad.

Republicans will be just as eager to accuse Biden of ageism as they were to accuse Cleland of treason.posted by clarknova at 6:29 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

What Paul Ryan actually has advocated for doesn't resonate with people at all! It wasn't until Mitt Romney completely denied everything he and Ryan have been campaigning on that things turned around for them polls for them. (Why do libertarians always think that people will flock to their ideas once they get a public hearing? Ron Paul didn't win a single primary!)

I woke up smiling this morning,, but thinking about this gave me a frowny face again. Actually more like a pissed-off face.

What enrages me is Romney/Ryan are far, far Right-- so far to the Right that anyone with half a brain who isn't in the top 1% should be running away in alarm. Yet now, in order to get elected, Romney/Ryan are Obamafying themselves. Jesus. Man up. Run on your own goddamn platforms.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:30 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

From Twitter: According to NBC's focus group of undecided Virginia voters, VP Biden won the #VPDebate by a 5-to-1 margin.posted by girlmightlive at 6:40 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

well there's the thing that baseball is a game played by very-paid people, and then there's the election which might be a little bit more important.posted by angrycat at 6:41 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

1. Is there an end game for the global war on terror?
2. Do today's foreign policy challenges mean that it's time to retire the Constitution?
3. What do we want from the Middle East?
4. What is your plan to right-size our military and what about downsizing the global mission?
5. Since no one outside our borders buys American exceptionalism anymore, what's next? What is America's point these days?
6. Bonus Question: To each of the questions above add this: How do you realistically plan to pay for it?

I also appreciated that Ryan praised women twice in the debate, even when he didn't agree with them. He acknowledged that the moderator had been to Afghanistan more than himself or Biden, and he praised some of Hilary Clinton's work. He was genial and collegial, and I appreciated that deeply.

Kind words and geniality are utterly meaningless when your beliefs and policies are so strongly anti-women. As Mitt Romney proved last week, people can say whatever the hell they want. It signifies nothing.posted by triggerfinger at 6:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [14 favorites]

Ouch 5 to 1 among undecided voters is brutal.

Considering Romney needs those guys to break like 3 to 1 in his favor this is probably going to head off any mittmentum in the battleground states.

The truth of the matter is that unless you live in about 1 of 7 states you just don't mean anything at this point your state is a foregone conclusion. And in those states there just isn't a ton of wiggle room for Romney to redefine himself as a centrist candidate.

If Biden played well with undecided voters in Virginia I think you can safely assume that he played well in Ohio. I think he'll also help move the needle in Florida and Wisconsin.posted by vuron at 6:51 AM on October 12, 2012

Personally I was more than a little squicked out by Ryan's car crash schtick. Was that intentional to try and throw Biden or something.posted by edgeways at 6:52 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

CNN's polling was weighted heavily towards Republicans and the format of their poll lent itself towards a much older demographic. Even CNN admits that it's probably undercounting democratic support by a pretty big margin (maybe as much as 8%).

The truth of the matter is that the snap polling after debates is pretty sketchy in terms of it's concrete value. Some of the focus group testing is useful but even that can be biased simply because of small sample sizes.

The punditocracy seems to be settling into 2 narratives: either Biden won handily or that Biden was excessively combatative. Honestly either result is probably going to help Obama.posted by vuron at 6:55 AM on October 12, 2012

So science is a bean-baby as glimpsed by some laypeople in a 7-week ultrasound? And who gets an ultrasound at 7 weeks? That's some fancy insurance he must have.
posted by gladly

People who used assisted reproductive technologies. I had my first ultrasound at 5 weeks. Then a second at 8 to confirm a heart beat. Fancy insurance, yes (or at least in a state which has manditory coverage or ART). And I guess he's all for "scientific conception" (IUI, IVF, clomid--take a pick), which is completely different than "religious-based" conception (sex = baby). Let's use science/medicine when it suits us, Mr. Ryan. (note: no clue if his child was conceived through ART but it is an explaination as to why he had such an early ultrasound).

And I loved how the question was what would you say to a soldier who noted that all candidates do is tear each other down? Ryan's response? Tearing down the Administration/Obama. Way to go on answering the question, dumbass. You just proved a point, creepo.posted by stormpooper at 7:00 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

neocons are pushing for war and when she asked, what would be worse, another war [or] Iran getting the bomb, she --and we the audience-- got EXACTLY WHAT WE NEEDED TO HEAR: two distinctly different stances on the use of the US military in the Middle East.

Hm, I guess I can sort of see it from that perspective, as a truly open question, but I definitely took it as a rhetorical one at the time. Wouldn't you say that within the general media/political discourse, the only allowable answer is that of course -- 100% -- a war in Iran is preferable to Iran getting a nuclear weapon? I don't see that as an actual difference between Democrats and Republicans. And so I took that question in particular as her way of saying -- in its most generous form -- "Get serious, Biden. All this talk of sanctions being enough is well and good, but we all know we're going to war" if not the even more inappropriate "Get serious, you peaceniks! You're going to get us all killed if you take war off the table! I can't believe this is the official whitehouse stance on this! Obviously you're not listening to your military experts!")

That said, maybe I'm off base on this, since both campaigns have apparently decided that it would be a bad move to suggest they might have to send troops into Iran. I kind of assumed the past half decade of Iran-is-really-scary drumbeating was enough to overwhelm the general electorate's sense of war fatigue.posted by nobody at 7:02 AM on October 12, 2012

My favorite tweet of the night was watching ginger-haired Mexican Joshua Treviño (last seen lobbying for the Malaysian government) go full Maoist on "urban intellectuals."

"In the heartland you filthy intellectuals and do some hard labor that isn't lobbying or tweeting!"posted by octobersurprise at 7:02 AM on October 12, 2012

Did anyone notice that weird point in the debate where no-one seemed to be able to pronounce "social security"? I was wondering if "So-sal security" was anything to do with So Solid Crew.posted by howfar at 7:04 AM on October 12, 2012

And here I was thinking you were just descending to misogyny.

Mm, yes, casual misogyny is just what this thread needed, well done indeed.

I'm already a racist for using the name "Barrack" too many times. What have I got to lose by adding misogyny to my list of imagined crimes.

Nine times out of nine I find conservative ideologues either disingenuous or delusional, but they're spot on when they bellyache about the obnoxious predictability of knee-jerk liberals.posted by clarknova at 7:04 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

[clarknova please do not make this thread about you and join the conversation in process. MetaTalk is an available remedy, continuing to namecall in this thread is not. If you are not trolling now is the time where it's on you to make that clear.]posted by jessamyn(staff) at 7:07 AM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

well there's the thing that baseball is a game played by very-paid people, and then there's the election which might be a little bit more important.

Sure the election is more important, but the election isn't the debate. I already know who I'm going to vote for, and as entertaining as the debate was, there wasn't really anything in it that could change my mind. To that extent the debate was, for me personally, fairly unimportant. To be honest, I don't really get this thing that the educated classes do where they have to be caring deeply about politics all the time because they're SO IMPORTANT. I have my principles, which I reevalaute from time to time, and I can fairly easily see who is most likely to act or vote in line with my principles. Given that I get one vote (in the least important place in the country from a voting perspective), that seems like a reasonable amount of time to devote to democracy.

I'm already a racist for using the name "Barrack" too many times. What have I got to lose by adding misogyny to my list of imagined crimes.

a reference from a debate when many of the new voters he needs to engage weren't even born yet... [Biden's] not appealing to independents and young voters with this stuff.

Is that what he needed to do here? Are there enough independents to make a difference? I thought that at this point it was all about firing up your base and getting better turnout, which Biden seems to have done very effectively if Metafilter and the Democratic chunk of my Facebook friends are any indication.posted by straight at 7:11 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I didn't say you were racist. I was just asking a simple question about why Obama isn't getting the respect from you that Romney is. But I'm just a "kneejerk liberal", I suppose.posted by inigo2 at 7:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Mitt Romney (September 9, 2012): “I hope to appoint justices for the Supreme Court that will follow the law and the constitution. And it would be my preference that they reverse Roe v. Wade”

Paul Ryan (October 11, 2012): “We don’t think that unelected judges should make this decision; that people through their elected representatives in reaching a consensus in society through the democratic process should make this determination.”

I would like to begin with Libya. On a rather somber note, one month ago tonight, on the anniversary of 9/11, Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other brave Americans were killed in a terrorist attack in Benghazi. The State Department has now made clear, there were no protesters there.
RADDATZ: it was a pre-planned assault by heavily armed men. Wasn't this a massive intelligence failure, Vice President Biden? It's been so long since I've heard an straight forward and pointed question at a debate that it was like hearing a beautiful foreign language.

Biden never directly answered the question, though he did a pretty smooth redirect:

BIDEN: What is was, it was a tragedy, Martha. It -- Chris Stevens was one of our best. We lost three other brave Americans.

I can make absolutely two commitments to you and all the American people tonight. One, we will find and bring to justice the men who did this. And secondly, we will get to the bottom of it, and whatever -- wherever the facts lead us, wherever they lead us, we will make clear to the American public, because whatever mistakes were made will not be made again.

When you're looking at a president, Martha, it seems to me that you should take a look at his most important responsibility. That's caring for the national security of the country. And the best way to do that is take a look at how he's handled the issues of the day.

On Iraq, the president said he would end the war. Governor Romney said that was a tragic mistake, we should have left 30,000 -- he ended it. Governor Romney said that was a tragic mistake, we should have left 30,000 troops there.

With regard to Afghanistan, he said he will end the war in 2014. Governor Romney said we should not set a date, number one. And number two, with regard to 2014, it depends.

When it came to Osama bin Laden, the president the first day in office, I was sitting with him in the Oval Office, he called in the CIA and signed an order saying, "My highest priority is to get bin Laden."

Prior to the election, prior to the -- him being sworn in, Governor Romney was asked the question about how he would proceed. He said, "I wouldn't move heaven and earth to get bin Laden." He didn't understand it was more than about taking a murderer off the battlefield. It was about restoring America's heart and letting terrorists around the world know, if you do harm to America, we will track you to the gates of hell if need be.

And lastly, the president of the United States has -- has led with a steady hand and clear vision. Governor Romney, the opposite. The last thing we need now is another war.

No Republican gets a pass from me when it comes to being "respectful" of women, given that their platform relegates women to secondary status. They have zero credibility on women's rights, as a party. There's nothing Ryan could have said in his current role that would change that, so why would it impress me?posted by emjaybee at 7:38 AM on October 12, 2012 [56 favorites]

Yeah, that redirect - and others by Biden - were great. I mean, that's what the debates are *for*, to reiterate your platform in opposition to your opponents.posted by undue influence at 7:40 AM on October 12, 2012

And make a distinction, which he did clearly. He almost never missed a chance to make a clear distinction.posted by Miko at 7:43 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

emjaybee, I'd favorite your comment, but for the first time in my six years here I've hit my favorite limit.posted by winna at 7:43 AM on October 12, 2012

The worst part of the debate was easily the total consensus on the need to reform Medicare/SS (moderator equally complicit), and Biden defending his record on raising the age with Reagan. The Grand Bargain cometh.posted by mek at 7:46 AM on October 12, 2012

winna: "emjaybee, I'd favorite your comment, but for the first time in my six years here I've hit my favorite limit."

The worst part about the favourites limit is that it's a rolling 24-hour window. So it's not like I get new favourites because it's now Friday - I pretty much have to wait till 9 PM to get them back. sob.posted by Phire at 7:48 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

The worst part about the favourites limit is that it's a rolling 24-hour window. So it's not like I get new favourites because it's now Friday - I pretty much have to wait till 9 PM to get them back. sob.

See, if people had enough favourites to spend, they would spend these favourites and the economy would grow. We need a gratiosus stimulus.posted by ersatz at 7:58 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh no Coldchef I'm sure Lindsey Lohan will definitely seal the deal for Romney. After all it's still 2004 right and she's still incredible popular?

I generally shy away from commenting on an actresses looks but she's looking really really bad these days. I don't know that you can keep doing the damage she's obviously doing to her body and not look like Keith Richards in a couple of years.posted by vuron at 8:10 AM on October 12, 2012

Mitt Romney (September 9, 2012): “I hope to appoint justices for the Supreme Court that will follow the law and the constitution. And it would be my preference that they reverse Roe v. Wade”

Paul Ryan (October 11, 2012): “We don’t think that unelected judges should make this decision; that people through their elected representatives in reaching a consensus in society through the democratic process should make this determination.”

Um, which is it?

In Republican circles, this isn't seen as any sort of a contradiction; the idea is that you overturn Roe and thus the issue becomes a state-by-state issue decided by elected representatives. Thus, the judges overturn Roe, but they're not making the decision; they're freeing the elected representatives to make the decision. Now, there's good reason to believe that it wouldn't happen that way, that overturning Roe would not lead to a state-by-state laboratories of democracy approach to abortion, and there's good reasons to oppose that policy in any event, but there is a consistent position there.

The thing about Lohan's endorsement reminded me of this ESPN poll of athletes about political issues. It's interesting how quickly money overwhelms all other indicators of who you might vote for; NBA players are largely black union members, and yet they break 60% in favor of Romney.posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:14 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Well, Mitt has the Jenna Jamison/Lindsay Lohan demographic licked, I guess.posted by octobersurprise at 8:14 AM on October 12, 2012

Iggy Pop has so much for which to answer. They should do PSAs for stars saying 'you think you can do drugs and end up like Iggy? This is untrue. Iggy is a genetic mutant with an uncanny constitution. You will end up looking like Keith Richards.'posted by winna at 8:14 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

The Whelk: "You just know Ryan wants some kind of voucher favorites program too."

I would be on board with a favourites cap-and-trade program. There are plenty who hoard their favourites like a dragon hoarding treasure, never giving any out lest their value be diluted. You know who you are. Call me.posted by Phire at 8:17 AM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

Iggy is a genetic mutant with an uncanny constitution. You will end up looking like Keith Richards.'

To be honest they both resemble some of the less successful products of my teenage experiments with deep-frying.posted by howfar at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

It's interesting how quickly money overwhelms all other indicators of who you might vote for

Agreed; what I don't get is the huge numbers of people who are two steps above the poverty line that are clearly voting against their interests.posted by Mooski at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

See, that was Lohan's serious cry for help right there. i mean, clearly nobody answered her less HI I AM TROUBLED activity, so she doubled down.posted by angrycat at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

It's interesting how quickly money overwhelms all other indicators of who you might vote for; NBA players are largely black union members, and yet they break 60% in favor of Romney.

"TO FIND OUT where jocks stand on the upcoming presidential election, social issues and who among them would make the best senator, our confidential team promised anonymity in exchange for truthiness. The secret ballots of our 62 voters? All yours."

So N=62? 62 total athletes across the NFL/NHL/NBA/MLB? Am I reading that right?posted by cashman at 8:20 AM on October 12, 2012

Fox News has 5 headlines up tsk-tsk-ing Biden's aggressiveness....

I'm ashamed at the wishy-washy media that didn't report this as a steamroll by Biden, what debate were they watching?posted by Theta States at 8:20 AM on October 12, 2012

Well, it was kind of rude for Joe to keep interrupting when Ryan was trying to lie.posted by cortex at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [33 favorites]

what I don't get is the huge numbers of people who are two steps above the poverty line that are clearly voting against their interests.

“But don't forget that most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor.” -- John Dickinson, 1776posted by grubi at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [11 favorites]

"TO FIND OUT where jocks stand on the upcoming presidential election, social issues and who among them would make the best senator, our confidential team promised anonymity in exchange for truthiness. The secret ballots of our 62 voters? All yours."

So N=62? 62 total athletes across the NFL/NHL/NBA/MLB? Am I reading that right?

I never said it was a good poll, but I'm willing to buy that it's close to right. In nothing else, it indicates that the NHL is full of center left (by American standards) Canadians and MLB is full of tea party crazies, which seem like safe bets.posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2012

The real winner last night was Martha Raddatz. It's time to put Jim Lehrer out to pasture.posted by Renoroc at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

I get why athletes especially elite athletes making millions would be generally pro-Republican during their playing careers. The vast bulk of their earning potential comes at the front side of their career and taxes can definitely do a number on those earnings. Having some like Romney say that he'll cut marginal tax rates by 20% has to be really tempting for these guys to support.

I can totally understand voting with your own self-interest. I can definitely understand the appeal of "screw you I've got mine" when you are at the top of the heap and you want to close the door behind you. It's selfish but understandable.

What I don't understand is when some people steadfastly support Republicans against their own self interest on the off chance that maybe they'll win the lottery or something and be one of the elite. Between that and the barely disguised racism and classism that helps keep the have nots divided from each other it can be really frustrating listening to public debate in this country.

But on the other hand I do think that the message that growing the economy from the top down is no longer fair and equitable is getting out to the electorate as a whole and that message is resonating. I just wish that Obama and company would do a better job of harnessing it.posted by vuron at 8:27 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I never said it was a good poll, but I'm willing to buy that it's close to right.

I am not. I'm not sure 15 guys per sport is not enough to make any kind of notable claim. And that's assuming it was evenly distributed.posted by cashman at 8:28 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

ColdChef, that letter from Biden to a young man struggling with stuttering was amazing!

Agreed Renoroc, Raddatz definitely set the bar pretty high for the other two moderators to follow. I generally don't watch Crowley that much but the few times I've watched her she hasn't really impressed but hopefully she can avoid the Mitt steamroll.posted by vuron at 8:30 AM on October 12, 2012

It's an interesting contrast, last week's liberal pundits' "OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING WE SUCK SO BAD AUUUUUUGH" vs. today's conservative media's "SHUT UP WE WON I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA" strategy. I kind of wonder if the right is onto something here.posted by naoko at 8:30 AM on October 12, 2012

FOX News calling Biden a big bad meanie poo-head is essentially the same as saying Ryan doesn't have the chops to make it in the White House. I mean they're literally saying that Ryan got stomped by this dude. If a nigh-70-year-old Democrat who buys the press corps bagels is a threat to you, how can we believe you're qualified for the #2 spot of dealing with terrorist cells and totalitarian strongmen? Presumably, by challenging them to a marathon, I guess.posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:32 AM on October 12, 2012 [88 favorites]

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, I would like to favorite your comment just again and again.posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:33 AM on October 12, 2012

I generally don't watch Crowley that much but the few times I've watched her she hasn't really impressed but hopefully she can avoid the Mitt steamroll.

Every time I read about Crowley moderating, I have a split-second mini heart attack before remembering that, no, it's not Monica Crowley moderating a Presidential debate, we are not that far gone yet.

It's an interesting contrast, last week's liberal pundits' "OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING WE SUCK SO BAD AUUUUUUGH" vs. today's conservative media's "SHUT UP WE WON I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA" strategy. I kind of wonder if the right is onto something here.

The problem is, we liberals have to actually live in reality, not just make it up as we go along.posted by peacheater at 8:39 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

If a nigh-70-year-old Democrat who buys the press corps bagels is a threat to you, how can we believe you're qualified for the #2 spot of dealing with terrorist cells and totalitarian strongmen? Presumably, by challenging them to a marathon, I guess.

Foreign policy shall henceforth be decided by three-legged races and a beefcake pose-off.posted by Superplin at 8:39 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

It's an interesting contrast, last week's liberal pundits' "OH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING WE SUCK SO BAD AUUUUUUGH" vs. today's conservative media's "SHUT UP WE WON I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA" strategy. I kind of wonder if the right is onto something here.

The problem is, once you start insisting on your own facts and your own reality, whether you're left or right wing becomes irrelevant, you're just no use anymore. The battle is precisely between reality-based discourse and fantasy-land ideological posturing, and giving up on the distinction would be the end of US political and historical relevance.posted by howfar at 8:40 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

jason_steakums: "Every time I read about Crowley moderating, I have a split-second mini heart attack before remembering that, no, it's not"

In Republican circles, this isn't seen as any sort of a contradiction; the idea is that you overturn Roe and thus the issue becomes a state-by-state issue decided by elected representatives. Thus, the judges overturn Roe, but they're not making the decision; they're freeing the elected representatives to make the decision. [...] there is a consistent position there.

When you do what they want, you are an "elected representative" and democracy is a gift to the world. When you don't, you're part of the filthy government and some kind of communist.posted by fleacircus at 8:49 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

For decades, American Catholics were split between an “abortion-first” camp that held every other issue to be a lower priority and a “whole-life” camp that argued for equal focus on issues of economic and social justice. Today that divide is even bigger, with many in the former camp downplaying or even disputing Church teaching on the economy and poverty, while some Catholics in the latter camp trumpet Catholic social teaching and say little about making abortion rare. When Mitt Romney selected Ryan—a card-carrying member of the “abortion-first” camp—as his running mate, an internal debate became very public.

When you don't, you're part of the filthy government and some kind of communist.

I just have a hard time understanding that point of view. "Government is inherently evil... therefore, let us take control of it." "Government needs to stay out of our business... except when it comes to uteruses." Guh?posted by grubi at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

The battle is precisely between reality-based discourse and fantasy-land ideological posturing, and giving up on the distinction would be the end of US political and historical relevance.

Siiiigh, I know, you're right. But their way is more fun. Plus, I really do worry about how media narratives shape reality - does a ubiquitous "Obama is weak and sleepy and totally screwed now" story, true or not, demotivate the base (probably not to the point of not voting, but to the point of donating or volunteering less)?posted by naoko at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2012

grubi: I just have a hard time understanding that point of view. "Government is inherently evil... therefore, let us take control of it."

That's what gets me about Ryan, Randroid that he is. His resume consists of driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile, working as a personal trainer and 14 years working for the government.

Isn't that exactly the kind of guy who would have been riding Ayn Rand's Train Of Doom in Atlas Shrugged?posted by syzygy at 9:01 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Charles Pierce @Esquire: Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.

All those echo-chamber Right-Wing dim pickle pundits need to internalize that knowledge and then they will know the truth and wisdom behind Joe Biden's helpless laughing at Paul Ryan, because in a sane country, that would be the default reaction to ludicrous jackass like Paul Ryan. Instead he's paraded by the GOtP as a future star for their party, which to me is so much re-arranging of the deckchairs on you know what humongous "unsinkable" ocean liner.posted by Skygazer at 9:01 AM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

tmot&t: As a CatholicFite, I was kind of pleased to see a Catholic-on-Catholic debate because precisely because it allowed the explication of that split.

Catholics are often treated as a unitary bloc who care only about abortion, but a lot of us haven't forgotten Dorothy Day or that old "whatever you did for the least of my bothers" line, or the story of the Good Samaritan*. Some of us, indeed, may not even think that our beliefs are anyone else's business, much less are anyone else's obligation to conform to. It's the 50th anniversary of Vatican II this week, an event that marked a big shift away from Big, Scary, Stick-Shaking authoritarianism towards social justice and humanitarianism -- or at least that's what I learned in Catholic school in the 80s.

People who proselytize mutely through charity & good works is my kind of religion, not the kind that shouts in your face and waves its fist. More Little Sisters of the Poor, and less picketing at Planned parenthood, you know?

Note: In case anyone forgot, the Good Samaritan story shows a despised minority caring generously for a member of the parable's audience, when more mainstream travelers -- who would be expected by the audience to help out -- pass by a robbery victim and don't want to get involved with the mess and expense and bother.posted by wenestvedt at 9:07 AM on October 12, 2012 [32 favorites]

I felt NPR let me down again as covering the laughing as "oooooooo could turn off independents" as opposed to "hey, if one believes the other is lying with every other breath, perhaps that is a natural human reaction and by the way isn't that why everybody said Obama sucked, that he was so no-responsive to Romney's attack"

I just don't get the Romney is so handsome/Ryan is such a stud thing. Romney looks like a money-hungry TV evangelist or used car dealer and Ryan looks like a frat boy who never grew up. Maybe it's my uterus refusing to appreciate politicians who are out to get it. If Romney were to be elected, that would be the end of my political engagement because I COULD. NOT. BEAR. to look at him every day for the next four years.posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 9:10 AM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

just don't get the Romney is so handsome/Ryan is such a stud thing. Romney looks like a money-hungry TV evangelist or used car dealer and Ryan looks like a frat boy who never grew up. Maybe it's my uterus refusing to appreciate politicians who are out to get it. If Romney were to be elected, that would be the end of my political engagement because I COULD. NOT. BEAR. to look at him every day for the next four years.

Totally, agree. I picture ball gags in their lives (not that there's anything wrong with it but these freaks totally would deny using one).

a lot of us haven't forgotten Dorothy Day or that old "whatever you did for the least of my bothers" line, or the story of the Good Samaritan

And, lest we forget, the Catonsville Nine. Catholics have a long tradition of activism for social justice. This is why the oversimplifying, reductive strategy the GOP is using - "hey, they hate abortion, too!" - is insulting and very shortsighted.posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:17 AM on October 12, 2012 [11 favorites]

Previous link [stormpooper] slightly nsfw, just sayin.posted by RolandOfEld at 9:17 AM on October 12, 2012

Maybe it's my uterus refusing to appreciate politicians who are out to get it.

In a legitimate debate, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.posted by Drastic at 9:17 AM on October 12, 2012 [24 favorites]

Great. Just an all around great thing to do. I think there's little as important in this world from an educational POV as letting someone know they have right to their voice and have duty to use it no matter what might be in their way and not only that, but encourage empathy from one's struggles.

Biden’s laugh is utterly brutal because it takes Paul Ryan, the marathon-exaggerating, dumbbell-curling, wannabe manly man and does the absolute worst thing imaginable to a guy like that. It points at him and makes him a fool. It says, “Yeah, tell me another one, Backwards Baseball Cap.”

Catholic voter datapoint: my Con Law (and Labor Law) professor was the general counsel to the Catholic League. He takes his faith very seriously. He is no theological liberal. He is very seriously pro-life and all the rest.

However, he's also extremely passionate about labor representation and economic justice. He's voted Dem in every election since the 70s or so - even for the crummy candidates, like Kerry.

I certainly can't speak for him, but it seems safe to say that, no matter what his other differences may be with the Dem platform, there's something about what the Dems offer that outweighs the pro-life stance of the Republicans.

Joe Biden's problem is he sometimes misspeaks. Paul Ryan's problem is that he doesn't.posted by grubi at 9:36 AM on October 12, 2012

This debate reminded me of the 2004 VP debate. I remember being so excited for smooth-talking Edwards to take on grumpy old Cheney, but Edwards ended up getting totally thumped. Nice to be on the other side of that.posted by Sreiny at 9:37 AM on October 12, 2012

A true pro-life position would also advocate the abolition of the death penalty.

And, lest we forget, the Catonsville Nine. Catholics have a long tradition of activism for social justice.

Just as an aside: The first full-length study of the Catonsville Nine has just been published. It's written by an old grad school buddy of mine, Shawn Francis Peters, who grew up in the area and whose high school baseball team was nicknamed... well, you can probably guess.posted by scody at 9:41 AM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

The other link to the transcript of the debate was not working for me so here's another one in case someone was looking for it.

I had to dive in and relive the following, it was one of the best examples of Ryan attempting to deny previous stances, throwing a zinger, and trying to make his side look generous and human with Biden going nose to nose on each and every point, even to the point of saying "You want to raise the pot and bring up a random ass car crash sob-story to show how much you care about other humans? I Call, and Re-raise you a better one that actually happened to me, but without the me looking 'mighty white' part".

RYAN: Mitt Romney’s a car guy. They keep misquoting him, but let me tell you about the Mitt Romney I know. This is a guy who I was talking to a family in Northborough, Massachusetts the other day, Sheryl and Mark Nixon. Their kids were hit in a car crash, four of them. Two of them, Rob and Reed, were paralyzed. The Romneys didn’t know them. They went to the same church; they never met before. Mitt asked if he could come over on Christmas. He brought his boys, his wife, and gifts. Later on, he said, “I know you’re struggling, Mark. Don’t worry about their college. I’ll pay for it.”

This is a man who gave 30 percent of his income to charity, more than the two of us combined. Mitt Romney’s a good man. He cares about 100 percent of Americans in this country. And with respect to that quote, I think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don’t come out of your mouth the right way.

(LAUGHTER)

BIDEN: But I always say what I mean. And so does Romney.

...

BIDEN: The idea — if you heard that — that little soliloquy on 47 percent and you think he just made a mistake, then I think you’re — I — I think — I got a bridge to sell you.

Look, I don’t doubt his personal generosity. And I understand what it’s like. When I was a little younger than the congressman, my wife was in an accident, killed my daughter and my wife, and my two sons survived. I have sat in the homes of many people who’ve gone through what I get through, because the one thing you can give people solace is to know if they know you’ve been through it, that they can make it. So I don’t doubt his personal commitment to individuals. But you know what? I know he had no commitment to the automobile industry. He just — he said, let it go bankrupt, period. Let it drop out. All this talk — we saved a million jobs. Two hundred thousand people are working today.
And I’ve never met two guys who’re more down on America across the board. We’re told everything’s going bad.

...

Stop talking about how you care about people. Show me something. Show me a policy. Show me a policy where you take responsibility.

"Mitt Romney’s a car guy. They keep misquoting him, but let me tell you about the Mitt Romney I know. This is a guy who I was talking to a family in Northborough, Massachusetts the other day, Sheryl and Mark Nixon. Their kids were hit in a car crash, four of them. Two of them, Rob and Reed, were paralyzed."

That's a weird non sequitor. Mitt Romney's a car guy, so here's this car crash anecdote? "He's in favor of cars, like the one that paralyzed these boys. No human cost is too high to have cars!" It's just odd.posted by klangklangston at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2012 [30 favorites]

So, normally I'd be all in the political news today but frankly reactions in the larger world that make me want to run and cry freak me so, so I'm working while BSG plays in the background so I don't get stressed out.

So -- what have we gained? There's the CNN and CBS polls, right? Anything else?

Also, I want to note that many of yous would have favorites from me but I maxed out earlier this morn.posted by angrycat at 9:58 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Also, great call on a new debate thread. I'm afraid we'd break metafilter if we tried to append it to one of the existing ones.posted by angrycat at 9:58 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

A true pro-life position would also advocate the abolition of the death penalty.

I still don't know where else he could have been taking it, but I admit my bias, which isn't so much against Republicans as much as politicians in general with Romney/Ryan and their bullshit slinging-hypocritical stances as flag bearers, may be making me take him less seriously than I should. So someone who did see Ryan's train of thought and how he could have thought that was going to work out for him can feel free to enlighten me.posted by RolandOfEld at 10:05 AM on October 12, 2012

To elaborate on what headnsouth said a bit more, it pretty much is. Having worked in a Catholic institution, they were uniformly -- uniformly -- anti-death penalty. That includes the ones who are more conservative than the Vatican, still not eating meat on Fridays, all women should be wearing wimples for modesty, gran-pères who wrote the checks and sat on the board.posted by boo_radley at 10:09 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I watched the debate after reading the thread and I have to say, I was expecting a knockout that wasn't there. Biden was excellent, but Ryan was calm and said what he went there to say, and there's no devastating sound-bite to play and replay.

The CBC replay mostly showed just Biden or Ryan, and not so much of them in the same shot, so I didn't see all the Biden-reax stuff, and there was only one or two shots where you could see Ryan take a sip of water (and why are the waterglasses under the table?). The camera angle made it look like Bidenw as yelling at the moderator a lot. I wonder to what extent different networks mixed their own feed of the debate? It could make a really big difference in your perception of the debate.

Ideally, you'd see both of them all the time. I liked the sitting at a table format better than the podiums. The next Presidential debate is going to be such a different format that it'll be hard to compare to the first one - I'd expect Obama to do better in town-hall style anyway, but the fear is expectations will be so high for him that an adequately non-robotic Romney performance will make it a win for him.

The moderator was effective. I saw one quip which said Ryan must feel bad finishing third... I really hope in one of these debates the moderators put the issue on the table about the unprecedented obstruction of the Congress -- this would have been the right debate, but Ryan is allowed to keep on talking about bipartizanship.

Oh yeah, and I hate these faux personalizations that everyone does. This only started like 20 years ago. Before then it was policy discussion, now it's "I just met with Bill and Mary in Anytown, and they are struggling...." I don't find it in the slightest bit effective - humanize the issues some other way that at least have statistical significance.posted by Rumple at 10:12 AM on October 12, 2012

there was only one or two shots where you could see Ryan take a sip of water

Yea, there must be some significant difference in coverage between what you saw and what MsEld and I watched. Ryan took way, way more than 2 sips of water that I saw. CSPAN ftw.

I hate these faux personalizations that everyone does. "I just met with Bill and Mary in Anytown, and they are struggling...."

Right there with you. I can walk outside and get crazy pants, and not-crazy pants, stories from either side of the economic and social spectrum, all within 100 ft from my front door. This does not a debate/political argument make.posted by RolandOfEld at 10:16 AM on October 12, 2012

It was obvious whenever Ryan would shift into "canned response mode". He may as well have prefaced these anecdotes with "Say, America, that question spontaneously reminds me of a story I have in no way rehearsed for days...". There was an audio shift like when you're watching a documentary and the soundtrack shifts from field recording to narration back in the studio.

That said, having any kind of fatal car accident story on tap seems like a head-scratcher. He could have just as easily used the story without the car angle if he wanted to talk about Romney's actions in this story. Someone speculated that maybe he was trying to throw Joe off his game by bringing it up, but I don't think that's possible given how Biden has come to terms with relating this story. It's not like it's something that happened to him last week. I honestly think Ryan got going on this story, realized it didn't really make sense too late, and had to keep going.

Re-watching this bit it really seems like the worst possible timing for Ryan. Biden had worked up a pretty good head of steam on his previous answer and whereas if Ryan hadn't taken this turn Biden's intensity might have kept building, giving CNN et. al. an "angry old man Joe" narrative, instead Biden comes back very muted and balanced, saying how he's sure Romney is generous on a personal level.posted by mikepop at 10:24 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

I saw Ryan take a sip of water at least 5 times and probably more. He finished one glass and started on a second one apparently as the glass was almost empty in one shot and was magically full in the next one.

It's fun to extrapolate that must have meant he was nervous and unsettled (I like to take it that way) but obviously it could just mean he had something salty for lunch.posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 10:25 AM on October 12, 2012

That's a weird non sequitor. Mitt Romney's a car guy, so here's this car crash anecdote? "He's in favor of cars, like the one that paralyzed these boys. No human cost is too high to have cars!" It's just odd.

Yup, exactly what I thought. I didn't watch the debate, but I had to read that quote a few times to parse it (I was thinking maybe it was a typo but what the fuck is a "care guy"?) and I still can't make it work. I don't think that the way to win or even attempt to win a debate is by doing random word association.posted by ob at 10:25 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

I saw Ryan take a sip of water at least 5 times and probably more. He finished one glass and started on a second one apparently as the glass was almost empty in one shot and was magically full in the next one.

This only got distracting for me when he pulled out his Stadium Buddy to relieve himself after drinking all that water.posted by found missing at 10:31 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

So does anyone know if all the US channels showed the same mix of camera angles or if on-the-fly editing could have (presumably unintentionally) influenced viewer's perceptions?posted by Rumple at 10:36 AM on October 12, 2012

I watched it on CSPAN and that is how it was shown.

Randomly: were they cutting off a sliver of Biden's face in your feed? Ours was for a good bit of the debate and it wasn't cute but I admit it may be that my TV isn't interpreting the video feed properly or something, we don't watch cable all that often since we have streaming stuff setup so I'm hesitant to start raging against CSPAN for something that could very well be on my end.posted by RolandOfEld at 10:38 AM on October 12, 2012

Just got back from a lunchtime visit to the gym. They had Fox News on the TVs for some damned reason... I wasn't listening, but the captioning and chyrons ("MORE FALLOUT FOR BIDEN FROM LAST NIGHT'S DEBATE") made it clear that the analysis is different up on Bullshit Mountain.posted by COBRA! at 10:51 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

But on the other hand I do think that the message that growing the economy from the top down is no longer fair and equitable is getting out to the electorate as a whole and that message is resonating.

I know! So much so that the Romney campaign co-opted "trickle-down" as a slur in the "trickle-down government" line they were trying out last week!

(I wonder if that might have made some on the right uncomfortable in the same way that "corporate welfare" is a bit complicated for how it sort of sounds like it buys into the idea of welfare being sneer-worthy. In any case, I bet "corporate welfare" was on their mind when they came up with the new "trickle-down" line. And I suspect it'll backfire if they stick with it.)posted by nobody at 10:52 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

As per 538, Obama's reelection chances down -21 points since Oct 4?
This is not -- right. Did we break democracy? Is there simply that much ignorance in our country? I have a pretty cynical view of humanity, but this still blows my mind.posted by angrycat at 11:00 AM on October 12, 2012 [8 favorites]

David Frum: Ryan Solid, But One Major Mistake.

In 2003 David Frum published a Bush biography entitled The Right Man.
Do you honestly give a shit about anything he might have to say?posted by clarknova at 11:04 AM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

I wouldn't be surprised if 538 is on the money. I think a lot of this has to do with expectations. People expected Obama to use Romney as a rhetorical surfboard during the first debate. That didn't happen - support takes a dip. A lot of people expected Ryan to end up in a pool of tears sucking his thumb by the end of this debate. That didn't happen - again, Obama/Biden support takes a dip.

However, let's bear in mind two things: First, Obama is still quite significantly ahead of Romney, most importantly in some key swing states. But not to rest on our laurels, second, Biden may have just lit a fire under a lot of progressive asses last night. "Independents" and undecideds might not be swayed, but the base will most likely got more fired up about this election, which I think should widen the already significant gap between the two candidates.posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:11 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

As per 538, Obama's reelection chances down -21 points since Oct 4?

The first debate - up until then, independents and independent minded R's and D's were terrified Romney didn't know what he was doing, at all. So when he got on stage, and sounded like he knew what he was doing, and Obama just stood back and let him talk, it swapped their fears around. Now they're afraid Obama doesn't have any answers.

The Veep debate will stop the hemorrhaging. The next debate will decide the election. Obama needs to look like he's in control. He has to have a snappy comeback to every question, and he has to stump Romney once or twice. He needs to confront and correct Romney, but he can't do it defensively - he has to be on the attack, and make Romney react to him.

See, that just doesn't make sense to me. Someone's debate performance doesn't really have anything to do with their policies, their records or how they might govern.posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:14 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I view David Frum as I do Ariana Huffington, narcissistic word-mingers who will say anything as long as they can stay in the spotlight. Regardless of whether such people claim to be liberal or conservative, I wouldn't count on or trust anything they say for a second and I would expect any of them to turn on you if the current political ideology isn't in your favor.posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 11:15 AM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

There was a series of photos on the CNN website last night and each candidate had several glasses on a shelf underneath the table. If I remember correctly by the end Paul had emptied 2 of his 3 and Biden's 2 glasses were seemingly untouched. Sort of a weird behind the scenes moment.

Paul Ryan was definitely thirsty. As a biologist I'm not surprised, his sympathetic nervous system was clearly in overdrive as the silver back gorilla took him to task.posted by hobo gitano de queretaro at 11:15 AM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

The fundamentals are that he's an incumbent president in a weak economy. He's not going to blow out Romney. But he's not going to lose either.posted by empath at 11:18 AM on October 12, 2012

See, that just doesn't make sense to me. Someone's debate performance doesn't really have anything to do with their policies, their records or how they might govern.

Back in the 60's Nixon lost primarily because he didn't shave well. Nobody every won a bet by underestimating the stupidity of the American electorate.posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 11:18 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

See, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Welcome to Amurrika. They will be your guide.posted by Malice at 11:19 AM on October 12, 2012

I encourage everyone to watch the two videos ericb listed. The difference in tone is stark and, to me at least, quite indicative of the differences of the tone of the two parties' political strategies in general. Interesting.posted by RolandOfEld at 11:32 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Holy moly, Biden looks a lot like Reagan there.posted by boo_radley at 11:38 AM on October 12, 2012

The fundamentals are that he's an incumbent president in a weak economy. He's not going to blow out Romney. But he's not going to lose either.

The TPM electoral scoreboard now has Obama under 270, with Florida flipping red. I think Obama still has a good chance with Ohio+Nevada but you're talking like it is in the bag, and the last week's decline in the poll numbers has been real and precipitous. Obama needs to bring it next week. Another performance like last week and he will lose unless some sort of miracle ground game still caries Ohio and one or two other close ones.posted by Justinian at 11:45 AM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

As we have pointed out before, every day that elapses in which GOP challenger Mitt Romney does not gain ground on the incumbent is a net gain for the Democrats. (This is true for any challenger in any election.) In the past week, Romney has succeeded in that battle, effectively turning an unequivocal debate victory into a steady march in the polls. The instant polls and market movement suggest Biden succeeded in diverting that narrative.

True. Dennis Praeger was on during my lunch break and he took Biden to task for "rudeness" (something a Republican like "Go f**k yourself" Cheney wouldn't know about), and said his prochoice stance didn't make sense because a fetus is a separate person and also, because it's hypocritical for Democrats to say a woman can do what she wants with her body when they pushed the ban on silicone breast implants. Which is certainly a unique take on the issue.

He finished up by saying that Romney and Ryan were deeply decent people whom he'd personally met, and that you knew that because the "skeleton digging" Democrats hadn't pulled anything up on them. I have to assume he means they haven't been caught in with prostitutes or something because there's been plenty of dirt otherwise.posted by emjaybee at 12:28 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

As we have pointed out before, every day that elapses in which GOP challenger Mitt Romney does not gain ground on the incumbent is a net gain for the Democrats. (This is true for any challenger in any election.) In the past week, Romney has succeeded in that battle, effectively turning an unequivocal debate victory into a steady march in the polls. The instant polls and market movement suggest Biden succeeded in diverting that narrative.

Yeah, this is a really good point. Stasis, in this case, is about as good a result as the Obama campaign can strive for (both because of the incumbent advantage and because Obama already has a pretty large lead.) The only large favorable movement they can hope for would come from huge gaffes on the Romney campaign's part, stuff like the 47% leak, and those aren't something that can be counted on.posted by kagredon at 12:31 PM on October 12, 2012

Compare this to Congressman Ryan. Whether viewers agreed with him or not, he seemed bigger than the debate, and his slightly unhinged partner. Whatever the question, Ryan had a quick answer or answers, and replies came in a calm, measured tone.

Even worse for Biden, and one can imagine President Obama cringing from afar, as Ryan scored points, Biden took to laughing in an uncontrollable way. Well aware that he lacked a mind quick enough to respond to the myriad jabs of his more nimble competitor, Biden presumably felt his laughs and smirks would effectively communicate what he couldn’t in terms of words, and well-crafted arguments.

The moderator was awesome. Martha Rad-Ass, amirite! Oh yeah! High five! hello?posted by msalt at 12:36 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Partisan spin aside, you had a calm, emotionless, somewhat canned young guy with weird helmet hair and a bizzarely flattened nose against a colorful, older storyteller clearly having fun and landing his blows with heart and passion.

That's why the polls of undecided voters are breaking heavily for Biden.posted by msalt at 12:40 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

If you believe that Thursday night's vice-presidential debate was a "draw" because Joe Biden was "rude" and "disrespectful" while Paul Ryan was obviously being disingenuous and uninformed, or that you've decided to go with "disingenuous" and "uninformed" because its manners made it more "likable," then you deserve the inadequate health-care voucher that's coming your way in 2014, as well as the letter from the Social Security Administration that your benefits will be down to 85 cents a month because International Embezzlement LLC went belly-up and took your retirement with it. Tough luck, kids. Them's the risks of an Opportunity Society.

It seems that much of the GOP post-debate spin is aimed at swaying, not undecided voters, but rather the Saturday Night Live writing staff.posted by Atom Eyes at 1:02 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

ericb, not until there is a nine-minute montage of him getting slapped by Peter Dinklage.

were such a thing to exist, my entire being would immediately transform into an immense erectionposted by elizardbits at 1:05 PM on October 12, 2012 [9 favorites]

I've never been charmed by Joe Biden like I was last night.

My first impression (once I got the livestream to stop buffering every two seconds), was that he was grinning like a jackass, but I was soon won over.

With as ugly as politics has gotten and has always been, it's rare to see someone that really seems to enjoy debating, especially in a close election with his job on the line.posted by elr at 1:07 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

There is no world in which the right wing was not going to say Ryan won and Biden lost.

Here is what reactions to a Democrat loss looks like:
D's: I guess we lost. R's: They lost!

A tie:
D's: Hm it seemed even. R's: They lost!

A Republican loss:
D's: Oh, man we won! R's: They actually lost! Plus it doesn't matter! And let me tell you about some other things they lost!posted by fleacircus at 1:09 PM on October 12, 2012 [27 favorites]

I've been thinking a lot since last night about what it would take for Republicans, worry warts on the left, and people who self-report themselves independent/undecided to flat out declare the Republican the loser in a Presidential or VP debate.

I don't think it's possible. I think even a Rick Perry-esque "Oops!" moment in a P or VP debate would result in "Yes, he had that misstep when asked about XYZ but he certainly scored some points of his own off of $Democrat's own slip later in the debate" type comments, perhaps supported by some pontification about how $Democrat's demeanor, tone, and posture really sent the wrong message to whatever made-up group the media had decided is vitally important in that election cycle (e.g., Nascar dads).

This is why I sort of envy Republicans. The vast majority always seem confident their guy is winning or one good effort away from winning; far too many Democrats seem to be convinced that their guy or woman is just one small mistake away from an utter disaster.

Not to mention they always get what they want. More wars, more people in prison, fewer social safety net programs, less power and respect for unions, rollbacks/elimination of affirmative action, etc. They get to call the President uppity, say breathtakingly horrible things about the President's wife, accuse him of lying, expose CIA assets, you name it, with no real repercussions. I wore a "Bush is a punk ass chump" t-shirt, and I had other liberals telling me how I'm being childish and seeing to it that no one will ever elect a Democrat ever again.

In short, the Republican Party's theme song should be "Damn It Feels Good to be a Gangsta".posted by lord_wolf at 1:12 PM on October 12, 2012 [32 favorites]

“I think you’re a journalist, and journalists are going to give her cover,” Erickson countered.

The proper reply to Macon's third-rate Talmadge would've been, "Of course you're going to say that. You're paid to lick whichever one of the Congressman's balls is the sweatiest." But it'll never happen because the whole thing's such a sham to start with. CNN might as well cut out the middle-man, fire O'Brien, and let Erickson read the talking points.posted by octobersurprise at 1:16 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I'm living in a country where there are a number of voters who are basing their decision on who to vote for in the upcoming presidential election largely on whether Joe Biden laughed too much.

Its really time to end humanity and give the cockroaches a chance to evolve and do things right.

QFT. As in, I've made my peace with the electorate in that we may well deserve the rough beast that is slouching towards Bethlehem.posted by angrycat at 1:21 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

lord_wolf: That's my general view of the world as well, but look at the world right after the Democratic National Convention. You had Bill's speech, Clint's speech, the 47%, for a moment there event the Rs couldn't make it look like anything other than a disaster.

And then O has a bad night and now, if you're an obsessive 538-watcher like me, it looks fairly certain that we're heading for President Mitt. I don't see any way that you stop a plummet like the one we see over there. And that chart doesn't even have today's state poling in it, which is terrible for Dems as it eliminates O's purported swing state "firewall". I don't know. I'd love to be talked off the ledge here, but I don't see a way down that doesn't end on the concrete.posted by The Bellman at 1:22 PM on October 12, 2012

Conservatives seem to have decided that they're going all-in on Biden's demeanor as their primary point of attack, and this provides us with an excellent field study of working the refs. As near as I can tell, the general reaction last night was that Biden was pretty good: loose, aggressive, passionate, and taking no guff from Ryan. At worst, maybe he overdid things a bit, but that's all.

As for Biden, his smirking and chortling during Ryan’s expressions left him looking disrespectful toward his opponent and the political opposition in general. Bad timing, Mr. Vice President; the American people are tired of the deterioration in political civility that has poisoned the country’s politics in recent years. This display couldn’t have helped with undecided and independent voters.

I'm living in a country where there are a number of voters who are basing their decision on who to vote for in the upcoming presidential election largely on whether Joe Biden laughed too much.

Its really time to end humanity and give the cockroaches a chance to evolve and do things righ

You know apparently there's like a a billion people or something living in...I don't know exactly what they mean when they say this but, it's like they think there are like two billion people living in a place that is like outside the USA. I know it seems crazy but that's what a news guy said.posted by howfar at 1:27 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

You know apparently there's like a a billion people or something living in...I don't know exactly what they mean when they say this but, it's like they think there are like two billion people living in a place that is like outside the USA. I know it seems crazy but that's what a news guy said.

" Bad timing, Mr. Vice President; the American people are tired of the deterioration in political civility that has poisoned the country’s politics in recent years. "

A position I've stated on MetaFilter for, what, nigh on seven years now is that it's more rude, more incivil, to trot out bullshit than to call something bullshit. Trotting it out is profoundly disrespectful of the American people, and a veneer of civility that allows that rot to flourish is something that the bullshitters only appeal to after they've lied to your fucking face. Fuck 'em.posted by klangklangston at 1:39 PM on October 12, 2012 [56 favorites]

I'm living in a country where there are a number of voters who are basing their decision on who to vote for in the upcoming presidential election largely on whether Joe Biden laughed too much.

And you're still giving them too much credit. They're only basing their decision on the laughter because that's what they've been told to base their decision on.posted by ceribus peribus at 1:39 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

Bad timing, Mr. Vice President; the American people are tired of the deterioration in political civility that has poisoned the country’s politics in recent years. This display couldn’t have helped with undecided and independent voters.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that anyone still undecided at this point is likely not going to see Biden suplex Ryan and think to themselves, "Well, I essentially see Obama and Romney as nearly identical, so I had no idea who to vote for - until that smug prick Biden had the nerve to smirk and chortle at Paul Ryan! This clinches it for me!"

As for independents, well ... maybe I'm being unfair, but most self-identified "independents" I've met are either conservative (mostly) or liberal, and vote accordingly. A lot of them just enjoy appearing to be Political Taoist Zen Masters who float above the political spectrum and weigh the issues with Solomonesque objectivity.

I don't know. I'd love to be talked off the ledge here, but I don't see a way down that doesn't end on the concrete.

I know how you feel. I'm very surprised at how this has shaken out. I've been reminding myself that there are still two debates left, and that, apparently, Obama's national decline is due to losing support in solidly blue states, and, apparently, early voting is breaking towards Obama in some states like Ohio. But I don't know...I should give 538 a rest this weekend.posted by girlmightlive at 1:44 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Bad timing, Mr. Vice President; the American people are tired of the deterioration in political civility that has poisoned the country’s politics in recent years.

That's why Romney's numbers plummeted after the last debate where he bullied the moderator. No, wait.posted by ersatz at 1:48 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

A position I've stated on MetaFilter for, what, nigh on seven years now is that it's more rude, more incivil, to trot out bullshit than to call something bullshit. Trotting it out is profoundly disrespectful of the American people, and a veneer of civility that allows that rot to flourish is something that the bullshitters only appeal to after they've lied to your fucking face. Fuck 'em.

You ungrateful little savage. Ronald Reagan endured sleepless, cold nights to teach George Washington and Christopher Columbus how beat the British and Indians by lowing taxes and you spit on the benefits of our continent by mouthing off.

See what happens when you breed communism with socialism, America? Foul mouthed hippie internet commenters.

it's more rude, more incivil, to trot out bullshit than to call something bullshit. Trotting it out is profoundly disrespectful of the American people, and a veneer of civility that allows that rot to flourish is something that the bullshitters only appeal to after they've lied to your fucking face.

Since I can only favorite this once, I'm quoting it in uber-agreement.

Yes, but many Americans don't want someone who tells the truth if it hurts. They don't want to hear about working harder for less. They don't want to hear about sacrifices. They don't want to hear about not getting their way. They want to be told that they'll all be millionaires some day. That their religious views are the "right" ones and will be enforced by law. That the environment will be just fine, and that they can fight and win as many wars as they want.

To those who cry that Vice President Biden did not show Congressman Ryan the appropriate "respect", I say: what on earth has Ryan done to DESERVE Biden's respect? To earn it? Not one damn thing, as far as I can see. Ryan is, IMO, the antithesis of Biden, and Biden knows it.

Yes, every civilized human being owes a certain level of basic decency to every other human being, and the fact that Biden sat down and listened to Ryan lie through his teeth and reacted only with laughter showed that level of decency. It was probably better than I could have done if confronted with the same situation.

If you want me to actually respect someone, they damn well need to earn it. Neither Romney nor Ryan has done anything I can see to earn my respect, or the respect of someone like Joe Biden. So, to those who complain about a lack of "respect": damn straight.posted by Lulu's Pink Converse at 2:10 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

Yes, every civilized human being owes a certain level of basic decency to every other human being,

Yes, every civilized human being owes a certain level of basic decency to every other human being...

Biden did not reach over the table, grab Ryan his lying ass neck and do the patent pending "Body Slam of Truth" so I'd say he was pretty respectful.posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:16 PM on October 12, 2012 [7 favorites]

“Yes, there is! Yes, there is!” O’Brien said over the governor’s objections. She continued, “Sir, let me finish. Let me finish. There’s independent analysis, [Factcheck.org], the CBO and CNN has also done its own independent analysis and name-calling to me and somehow acting as if by repeating a number of $716 billion, that you can make that stick. … That’s not true. You can’t just repeat it and make it true, sir.”posted by TwoWordReview at 2:24 PM on October 12, 2012 [14 favorites]

One of my Grand Theories is that the nation needs to suffer a great cataclysm to unite it. It took Europe a long time and many many bodies to figure out that taking care of others is a must for a civil society.

In a remarkable act of 'pin the war on your opponent' Vice President Joe Biden on Thursday evening worked to portray Paul Ryan as the candidate most in favor of continuing the unpopular fight in Afghanistan, a conflict President Barack Obama once called the "war that has to be won" and to which he added 33,000 American soldiers.

Biden said that Ryan and his GOP running mate Mitt Romney support a timeline for drawdown of the remaining troops in Afghanistan that is based on conditions on the ground. And then he proceeded to ridicule that idea.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that anyone still undecided at this point is likely not going to see Biden suplex Ryan and think to themselves, "Well, I essentially see Obama and Romney as nearly identical, so I had no idea who to vote for - until that smug prick Biden had the nerve to smirk and chortle at Paul Ryan! This clinches it for me!"

here's the thing-- when people talk about politics, they chortle, smirk, and call people on their bullshit. Biden acted like a normal person. The reason Obama got such a bad reception to his performance is that he didn't act like a "normal person" talking about politics. He let Romney drone on, let him get away with stuff he shouldn't have, and didn't forcefully and passionately defend his own record and what he believed in. Needless to say, viewers didn't relate to that. They related to the way Biden handled himself because that's how people who care about politics act.posted by deanc at 2:45 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

One of my Grand Theories is that the nation needs to suffer a great cataclysm to unite it.

W. did his best. Two wars, smashed economy, global crisis by deregulation. His would-be successor wanted to bomb Iran and chose Sarah Palin as a VP. Yet the result of 2008 was a margin of 7.3%. Not huge.posted by ersatz at 2:55 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

One of my Grand Theories is that the nation needs to suffer a great cataclysm to unite it.

W. did his best.

Yah, we had a pretty good cataclysm in 2001 that united us for about 2 weeks. That kind of theory is not a good one to get stuck on - it is exactly why so many people romanticize wars.

Anyway, even IF there was once a time when "a good war" would join the nation together, we don't live in a time like that now. Only some people are even directly affected by war. Everything is specialized and departmentalized, from the work you do to the news you listen to to the pop culture you take in. I don't think we can expect to unite in that old-fashioned way again...posted by mdn at 3:07 PM on October 12, 2012 [5 favorites]

Oh man, I wasn't trying to romanticize war. I was mulling over conversations I have with my shrink, a guy who was born during the Great Depression. We talk about the sort of eroding of the social fabric.

I hate the America that invaded Iraq. I was opposed to the invasion of Afghanistan. I'm a big fan of Derek Filkins, the NYT/New Yorker journalist who writes about the horrors the U.S. has visited upon the Middle East. I was a New Yorker in 2001 and pictures of the Towers burning, or just the Towers as they were before they fell, fills me with dread.

What I do think is that Americans have spoiled for a long, long, long time. We have fought wars by essentially drafting those who have no other opportunities. Remember Victory Gardens? When, as a nation, we had to unite to combat an existential threat?

The Civil War was an existential threat -- in that the Union was threatened. The Cold War was an existential threat, but somehow we avoided that cataclysm. By the skin of our teeth. But now the Cold War is sort of memories of Reagan and Threads and The Day After and the sort of scary thrill of imagining a nuclear holocaust.

But as a nation, what have we suffered since the Civil War that approximates the deprivation the rest of the world has experienced? That's what I'm getting at. I want humans to be different, but I don't think we are: we are animals at heart, unless and until some impetus -- usually borne of deprivation -- allows us to transcend ourselves.posted by angrycat at 3:28 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

In a remarkable act of 'pin the war on your opponent' Vice President Joe Biden on Thursday evening worked to portray Paul Ryan as the candidate most in favor of continuing the unpopular fight in Afghanistan...

Isn't he? (Unless Romney is outracing him to battle.) The Republican ticket is hammering Obama and Biden for "weakness" precisely because they're ending the Afghanistan war, and further attacking them for reducing the number of troops to reflect the end of Iraq and Afghanistan, again as "weakness."posted by msalt at 4:18 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

The real disagreement is even more profoundly stupid — that it's a mistake to tell the Afghans when we're leaving. Like, setting a date. Because that means that people can wait us out.

The problem is that if you don't do this, you have a perpetual war with no ending. And also, what, like, if we leave without giving them a date the Taliban won't notice? Is the plan to just leave them a bunch of leftover cutouts from Tower Records dressed up in desert camo?posted by klangklangston at 4:22 PM on October 12, 2012 [16 favorites]

We will announce our departure date in the form of a clever rebus. This will confound the Taliban while informing the more astute everyday Afghanis. Problem solved.posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:25 PM on October 12, 2012 [10 favorites]

How much more relevance will these voter I.D. laws have now, does anybody have a read on that? My take before whatever madness has seized the electorate was that they wouldn't do that much, given the lead Obama has. Now --- is this something that could decide the race?posted by angrycat at 4:37 PM on October 12, 2012

I'm hoping that someone is just about to come forward with info on Romney's Swiss Bank accounts...posted by Theta States at 4:48 PM on October 12, 2012

Oh man, I wasn't trying to romanticize war. I was mulling over conversations I have with my shrink, a guy who was born during the Great Depression. We talk about the sort of eroding of the social fabric.

But what is that social fabric really? It's always been something to which some people have been excluded from others because of race, homeland, class or culture. You don't tend to find as many elderly black people looking back fondly to the good old days. You tended to have a lot of smaller, localized fabrics, communities that stuck together, often against larger societal oppression. There was always an "other" for communities to band together against; closeness between people was always paid for by pushing against someone else.

While an age in which there was an overall social fabric is largely fiction, that doesn't mean we can't construct something more inclusive, all by having a little thing, largely forgotten by the sorry race of humanity, called empathy.posted by JHarris at 4:50 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Intrade was not happy with the Obama team today.posted by wierdo at 4:50 PM on October 12, 2012

If Harry Reid is holding some sort of evidence to prove his claims that Romney has crooked taxes, now would be a good time to show it.posted by SweetTeaAndABiscuit at 4:51 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

The more I see of Ryan the more he makes my skin crawl. I just cannot get used to that weird self-consciously puppy-doggish look he does to camera. It makes me feel like he's trying to figure out a way of drug raping me through the TV. Genuinely unpleasant.posted by howfar at 5:10 PM on October 12, 2012 [4 favorites]

corb has always been up front about working at the intersection of grassroots public advocacy and the non-profit-industrial-complex-type jobs in NYC. There's nothing secret about that. And because that working environment is pretty unfriendly to her brand of right-wing propertarianism, MeFi is her outlet.

Yeah, sorry if I freaked anyone out by that comment, but essentially this. I came to Metafilter to discuss the debate because I wanted to talk to other smart people that I could have an honest discussion with. But yeah, I definitely am not paid by either party, and I think both parties are probably vaguely annoyed with my org if they know it at all.posted by corb at 5:35 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

Wow! could he be that brazen? Or is it possible it was a coincidence? I just don't know what to think, that's a pretty bold lie. And while politicians frequently lie (or shade the truth) about policy, sexual shenanigans aside I think lying about your family and your children is less common.posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:36 PM on October 12, 2012

I saw a discussion on Jezebel about the bean story, and most commenters agreed that its a common belief that a foetus looks like that, so he may have stolen the story, but most likely not.posted by annsunny at 5:48 PM on October 12, 2012

I mean, a lot of commenters either noticed the same thing, or said lots of mommyblogs noted it too.posted by annsunny at 5:50 PM on October 12, 2012

The 538 now-cast is now at 276.2, and a 56.1% chance of winning. Can I panic now?

Kill the motor, dude. The Biden Goal Line Stand won't be apparent until Monday or Tuesday.posted by Slap*Happy at 6:14 PM on October 12, 2012 [2 favorites]

The 538 now-cast is now at 276.2, and a 56.1% chance of winning. Can I panic now?

Kill the motor, dude. The Biden Goal Line Stand won't be apparent until Monday or Tuesday.

Well, I'm sorry. I'm panicking. Maybe it's just because I'm a hysterical woman, who knows, but that's quite a dip in such a short period of time.....posted by anastasiav at 6:15 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I know a few people I had thought apolitical locally have started getting a blank stare in their eyes and chanting "Romney." I'm unsure how much I should confront them on this.posted by JHarris at 6:22 PM on October 12, 2012

go breathe into a bag for a while. Try not to concede anything to the bag. You'll be fine.posted by boo_radley at 6:22 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

No, you are not wrong, it's a totally crazy drop, but if you live by the debate, you die by the debate. Ryan was murdered on the field of rhetorical battle.

Biden did what was needed to get the buzz back on the Democrat side. It's not enough to reverse the trend, but it will slow or stop it... and it will get eyeballs back on the tube for the next Romney/Obama tussle, and I don't think you are going to catch Obama flat-footed twice in one month.posted by Slap*Happy at 6:23 PM on October 12, 2012 [1 favorite]

I know a few people I had thought apolitical locally have started getting a blank stare in their eyes and chanting "Romney." I'm unsure how much I should confront them on this.

Joe Biden: Just ask yourself: With Robert Bork being the chief adviser on the court for — for Mr. Romney, who do you think he's likely to appoint?

For those who want know more about Robert Bork or are just Senate confirmation hearings junkies, I just wanted to point out that the entire Bork Supreme Court Nomination hearings are available here.posted by Bokmakierie at 6:27 PM on October 12, 2012 [3 favorites]

Not sure there's any use in being scared. But I do not think we should be complacent.

Someone is dumping, hence the drop. Either that or there's this HUGE news event going on that I missed, on the order of Obama declaring he's a secret alien terrorist lizard.posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 6:49 PM on October 12, 2012

Vice President Joe Biden attacked Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) for criticizing the president's stimulus act despite having sent two separate requests for stimulus funds for his district. Biden was wrong. Ryan sent at least four requests.

A Freedom of Information Act request for correspondence between Ryan's office and the Environmental Protection Agency, filed by The Huffington Post, unearthed two additional instances in which the Wisconsin Republican petitioned for American Recovery Act funds.