Any subject matter that may be off-topic or is intended only to cause disruption or harm to others may be removed without notice. This includes the badmouthing of other Buddhist discussion forums, trolling and proselytizing.

and mindful of this advice from a mod:

tilt wrote:This discussion of E-Sangha was been, so far, thoughtfully stated. It is a delicate area to tread given that, as Christopher states, there are strong negative feelings towards E-Sangha out there. We do have here on DW terms of service of not trashing other forums, and I would ask that any further discussion keeps that in mind.

I would like to propose the following:

Let's share our experiences, positive and negative, about E-Sangha, along with some thoughts about what we have learned from those encounters. I sense that for many of us here, E-Sangha has been an influential part of our Internet Buddhism discussions, yet I don't believe there is an outlet for this particular type of discussion about that board. So let's create one here, on this board. It might be the only place where that's possible.

I suggest that, per the DW TOS, no "badmouthing" is invited or acceptable, and I suggest we define "badmouthing" as belitting or disrespectful or gratuitous comments, or any ad hominem comments about any person. I suggest that general constructive criticism of E-Sangha and its moderation standards does not constitute "badmouthing," however, and that it be allowed, if DW mods and admins believe that is acceptable. Since these definitions are still subjective to some extent, close moderation is to be expected.

Finally, I would suggest that after each post, the poster add a few words of goodwill for the mods and admins over at E-Sangha.

I think the result would be a healthy, helpful opportunity to discuss positive and negative experiences openly, to clear up misunderstandings, and to give proper respect to E-Sangha.

If this seems like a good idea, I suggest that this thread be moved to the Lounge. If not (and I realize there may be considerations of which I'm unaware), I invite mods here to close or delete this topic.

Metta

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,But never soddens what is open;Uncover, then, what is concealed,Lest it be soddened by the rain.

Not sure if our moderators will allow this topic to stand, but as a gesture of good will to help set the tone I will repost what I said in another discussion, earlier, with a few additions.

E-sangha is a wonderful resource. Great teachers can be found there, great place to learn about the dhamma, get advise and information. Great place to meet fellow practitioners, to discuss our practice and learn from one another. No Internet forum is going to be perfect though. Some people are bound to feel uncomfortable in any forum, disagree with moderating cultures, encountering challenges and difficulties.

Many people had "negative" experiences there. I did, every once in awhile, but I also found that each of those experiences was an opportunity for me, to learn something about myself, others, and the dhamma. I truly am thankful to all the staff at E-sangha, for what I learned there.

Life is not always fun or easy, and pain is not always a bad thing. Sometimes things hurt cause we need to look at them differently and see what lessons are coming our way. We can blame others for the difficulty we experience, but it's something the Buddha himself frequently advised against.

When you are open to it, adversity can be a great great teacher...

"The results of karma cannot be known by thought, and so should not be speculated about. Thus, thinking, one would come to distraction and distress. Therefore, Ananda, do not be the judge of people; do not make assumptions about others. A person is destroyed by holding judgments about others."

-Anguttura Nikaya

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Adverse circumstances test our courage, our strength of mind, and the depth of our conviction in the Dharma. There is nothing exceptional about practicing Dharma in a good environment and atmosphere. The true test is if we can maintain our practice in adverse conditions.

-Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey, "Advice From a Spiritual Friend"

Last edited by christopher::: on Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

In times of prosperity it is important and above all to possess enough greatness of soul to bear with imperfect people. For in the hands of a great master no material is unproductive; he can find use for everything. But this generosity is by no means laxity or weakness. It is during times of prosperity especially that we must always be ready to risk even dangerous undertakings, such as the crossing of a river, if they are necessary. So too we must not neglect what is distant but must attend scrupulously to everything. Factionalism and the dominance of cliques are especially to be avoided. Even if people of like mind come forward together, they ought not to form a faction by holding together for mutual advantage; instead, each man should do is duty. Theses are four ways in which one can overcome the hidden danger of a gradual slackening that always lurks in any time of peace. And that is how one finds the middle way for action.

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198

Beautiful & challenging, for most of us humans. But hold on to that, and we can discuss many things openly together. This could be posted as part of any Buddhist forum's TOS...

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198

Beautiful & challenging, for most of us humans. But hold on to that, and we can discuss many things openly together. This could be posted as part of any Buddhist forum's TOS...

A Zen teacher -- I think it was Aitken, but I'm not sure -- once observed, "Silence is golden and sometimes its color is pure yellow." If the best we can do is to be entranced by the 'good,' how can we ever hope to be free from the 'bad?'

If the best we can do is to be entranced by the 'good,' how can we ever hope to be free from the 'bad?'

What do you mean...?

I could be missing genkaku's point entirely, but i think perhaps he means that we have to face directly and examine very very closely whatever it is we consider to be "bad." Otherwise you do not understand the causes, conditions that give rise to what some call bad things or behaviors. Without that understanding we can be pulled in over and over, experiencing aversion or even falling into those same patterns of thought and action- so that we become/manifest exactly what it was that we had disliked, avoided or hated.

Maybe?

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

Ok, so here are a few comments about E-Sangha that I came across in other threads posted around here. Now they're all together in one place:

(Feel free to add any I missed.)

Joop wrote:Hallo

A post perhaps not everybody will like.I'm Joop, a freethinker Theravadin from the Netherlands (sometime I say: a non-existing tradition)

Yesterday I had a discussion with a man who calls himself Namdrol, in another forum: E-Sangha.A not very nice discussion, partly because he closed the topic and made the name of 'dhammawheel' in my post invisible.It was about my question to the people who started this Dhammawheel forum:Why this new forum ? Was the culture in E-Sangha that bad?

Perhaps it was and is and that makes me sad.Because I prefer discussing within Theravada and within the broad buddhist way, with Theravadins and other Buddhists.

I'm not sure that is possible in this forum. I can be a bit sectarian to me.And I'm not sure also Modern Theravada (that's for me: Buddhism without Buddhaghosa) is possible here.

So I'm not sure I will join this forum.

Metta

Joop

Jechbi wrote:... I very much appreciate E-Sangha. I think Namdrol is, in his own unique way, helpful and informative. But personally I feel more comfortable in an environment where communication is more open, where people are allowed to make mistakes now and then, and where discussions are not routinely shut down like this for no apparent reason. Sadly, there is simply no way at E-Sangha for members to talk about E-Sangha openly. Constructive criticism is not allowed. Public feedback about the site is not welcome. That strikes me as bizarre and, frankly, at odds with my understanding of Dhamma.

E-Sangha, as a privately owned site, certainly may do as it pleases and create the environment it feels is best. It is not a matter of censorship, because E-Sangha is not the government, and there are alternatives. Of course the mods and admins there should be allowed to do as they please. Their members can decide whether it works for them or not. Personally, I think Dhammawheel.com simply provides a more open environment where real discussion and appropriate debate are far more welcome. I don't feel like I'm walking on eggshells over here. Plus, if I want to, I can openly criticize things here, and nobody's going to make me invisible.

That said, I'd like to express my gratitude to Namdrol and others who have made E-Sangha very much a valuable service. It might be the second-best site on the Web.

Metta

davcuts in Zen Forum announcement wrote:This is great news. At the same time it's a bit sad. Why are people breaking away from e-Sangha? I find it odd I could have asked the questions I've been asking here all along at e-Sangha. I didn't because I didn't feel comfortable doing so. I'm conflicted about why that is.

Peter wrote:

davcuts wrote:Why are people breaking away from e-Sangha?

Remember the Terms of Service you agreed to when you joined this forum?

"Any subject matter that may be off-topic or is intended only to cause disruption or harm to others may be removed without notice. This includes the badmouthing of other Buddhist discussion forums, trolling and proselytizing."

Answering your question will result in badmouthing, don't you think?

Tex wrote:

davcuts wrote:Why are people breaking away from e-Sangha?

I can only speak for myself, but I haven't broken away from e-Sangha. I still read and post over there -- I'm considering Dhamma Wheel to be a very valuable addition to my online studying, not a replacement. I have a long way to go, I'll learn anywhere I can!

christopher::: wrote:

davcuts wrote:This is great news. At the same time it's a bit sad. Why are people breaking away from e-Sangha? I find it odd I could have asked the questions I've been asking here all along at e-Sangha. I didn't because I didn't feel comfortable doing so. I'm conflicted about why that is.

No need for anyone to choose one place and reject another.

E-sangha is a wonderful resource. Great teachers, great place to find information. Great place to meet fellow practitioners, to discuss our practice and learn from one another. No Internet forum is going to be perfect. Some people are bound to feel uncomfortable in any forum, encountering challenges and difficulties.

Fortunately, when you are open to it, adversity can be a great great teacher...

Jechbi wrote:Hi Peter,

Peter wrote:

davcuts wrote:Why are people breaking away from e-Sangha?

... Answering your question will result in badmouthing, don't you think?

No, I don't think so. I think it's perfectly possible for people to discuss E-Sangha, and even discribe ways in which it could be improved, without badmouthing E-Sangha. I think people here have demonstrated that.

E-Sangha is great. DhammaWheel.com is a little more comfortable for me personally, in part because DhammaWheel.com moderators and admins actually welcome public criticism of the forum. That makes a huge difference in the overall tone of the board and sense of community. But both boards are a great service.

jcsuperstar wrote:e-sangha's "problem" is that they've done a damn good job of keeping out the weirdos, but in doing so it set up rules that are easily broken by groups who though mainstream have ideas that conflict with other (maybe most other?) buddhist groups represented on e-sangha. i'm always supried what gets shut down and what doesnt over there...

davcuts wrote:

Peter wrote:Remember the Terms of Service you agreed to when you joined this forum?

"Any subject matter that may be off-topic or is intended only to cause disruption or harm to others may be removed without notice. This includes the badmouthing of other Buddhist discussion forums, trolling and proselytizing."

Answering your question will result in badmouthing, don't you think?

It doesn't have to be. There has been a change recently at e-Sangha. Pretending there is not is like not acknowledging a huge elephant in the room. Doesn't mean everyone has to bad mouth it. I'm still a member of e-Sangha and have no desire to leave. Still it's not like it was when I joined almost two years ago. I even stated so at e-Sangha. The fact there is a new Theravada forum, and a new Zen forum shows a lot of other people have noticed that change. Is making these remarks mean I'm bad mouthing e-Sangha? I don't think so. I love e-Sangha and right after I post this I'm going to go there and see what is newly posted. Then I'm off to the Buddhist Lounge, when the new Zen forum opens no doubt I'll want to hang out there as well.

Take care,David

christopher::: wrote:Just as this issue is coming up here, one of the difficulties we are going to have to work with at our new forum is that there will be ZFI members who have strong negative feelings about E-sangha. There will be moderators as well.

We are going to start with similar terms of service as Dhamma Wheel, but this topic will come up. How to allow conversation and discussion and criticism without stepping over boundaries into wrong speech, animosity and attachment to views?

I don't have an answer to that. We'll have to figure this out as we go along. For myself, personally, I am doing all I can to cultivate positive thoughts and feelings about E-sangha, the place where I met most of my closest online friends.

Sometimes people just need to vent. But if you take the time to reflect on "negative" life experiences there is usually a bit of dharma understanding that can be taken away from every situation. If something happened in your life, there is often a reason, imo.

Something to be learned there.

Will wrote:One reason I post so little at Esangha is just that it is too big and too many posts fly by before one can even read, much less digest, what is being written.

With Metta for our friends at E-Sangha. Obviously it's not an easy job to moderate such a vast community.

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,But never soddens what is open;Uncover, then, what is concealed,Lest it be soddened by the rain.

If the best we can do is to be entranced by the 'good,' how can we ever hope to be free from the 'bad?'

What do you mean...?

I could be missing genkaku's point entirely, but i think perhaps he means that we have to face directly and examine very very closely whatever it is we consider to be "bad." Otherwise you do not understand the causes, conditions that give rise to what some call bad things or behaviors. Without that understanding we can be pulled in o

ver and over, experiencing aversion or even falling into those same patterns of thought and action- so that we become/manifest exactly what it was that we had disliked, avoided or hated.

Maybe?

I may have missed the point -- not unusual -- but I was trying to suggest that the 'good' -- however beautifully wrapped -- and the 'bad' -- however disgustingly portrayed -- come as a single package. So the upshot is, for my money, to investigate the 'good' with as much care as anyone might bring to the 'bad' ... and not be shy about it. Elevating or suppressing the one in order to eradicate the other is a fool's errand.

I for one don't feel they deserve this. If I had to guess it might be the tradition I used to practice with. I'm glad e-Sangha won't allow certain traditions to spread their propaganda on there. I don't know what took place at the Soto Zen forum, but I know all to well about one tradition that is banned on e-Sangha. If that tradition was allowed to post on there all it would do is cause a lot of disharmony in the group. What I don't understand is why are some threads closed when they have nothing to do with their TOS. It seems most of the threads I post in are closed or deleted altogether. I don't feel they are targeting me in the least, but some topics seem to be off limits. It wasn't always like that. I still love e-Sangha and will always be grateful to them. They where there for me in the worst times of my life. Sadly though I believe if someone who was in my situation where to go there for help now, most of their post would be removed. Perhaps this has to do with the lawsuit. They are now afraid of offending certain groups because they might be taken to court. If that's the case I can understand better why a lot of topics are off limits.

I came across E-Sangha after only having been Buddhist for a month. At the time I was pretty adamant about being non-sectarian - I didn't even know what Theravada was when I joined. As it turned out though, my views and perspectives and understandings of the Dhamma were aligned with that of the Pali Canon, so Theravada became my tradition of choice. Somewhere along the way, the moderators and administrators figured I seemed to know what I was talking about, so I was made a General Moderator and one month later, a Global Moderator, after it was seen how active I was across nearly the whole board. This shift from member to moderator allowed me an insight into what happens behind the scenes and what is required to keep a forum in good shape. For anyone who has not been a moderator you would not believe how much effort was required to keep out the genuine troublemakers, crazies and cultists. Even when they would be banned, many of them would not take no for an answer, and try several means to surreptitiously regain access to E-Sangha.

Being a moderator was a very rewarding experience for me because I got to play a role in keeping the board functioning well and serving the Buddhist community, in addition to meeting some truly wonderful people and trying to help out the absolute beginners. Actually, because E-Sangha is the biggest English language Buddhist board, it does attract all the beginners, so there is an endless stream of them walking through the door. With all these beginners coming in, and with all the troublemakers, crazies and cultists still poking around the edges looking for people to confuse, convert and insult, it was deemed necessary to tighten up the policies regarding Wrong View, so the Terms Of Service slowly changed to include a small list of Dhammic non-negotiables, rules of compliance for monastics (to prevent imposters using status as leverage) and what kind of advice was permitted in the Beginners Forum.

This sense of responsibility towards the beginners though, had its casualties. Members of some traditions felt marginalized by the policies and with backs to the wall, would often fight, either straight up or passive-aggressively, against the restrictions and against those seen to be closing the walls in on them. Often the beginners themselves became casualties of their own questions or preliminary beliefs as they were deemed to go against the grain of the acceptable normative Dhamma. I think many beginners and potential Buddhists walked out the door, disgruntled about Buddhism, never to return to E-Sangha and possibly never to return the Dhamma at all. To say any of the above was anyone's fault would be wrong. It would be far more accurate to say that different perspectives, different ideas and values, and the increasing stakes at hand, meant that a certain consolidation and consistency of method was deemed to be required, moving forward.

As time and incidents rolled on, I feel a certain "us and them" mentality crept in across much of the board... staff vs members, sect vs sect as so on. I myself felt marginalised on occasion when I would try to help beginners come to an appropriate perspective on key, and often tricky Dhammic issues, generally aiming to guide them with exactly the same style, logic, and respect for the audience that the Buddha used in the suttas of the Pali Canon (e.g. MN 60, AN 3.65). However, this was perceived as skirting around the edges and going too light on the enforcement of certain rules.

I started to feel at this point as if E-Sangha and myself were drawing apart, so when it was time to leave my moderating post in a couple of months, after the initial shock I felt quite OK about it all. Just as two people in a partnership can grow apart and not be compatible any longer, so it was for me and E-Sangha. Again, nobody's fault... that's simply how things go sometimes, isn't it? That is the truth of anatta and anicca in action for you!

Part of what helped make me feel OK about it all was the opportunity provided by David to be an administrator here at Dhamma Wheel... and to him and the other moderators I feel very thankful. I had began to think for a while that there was audience enough for a specialised Theravada Buddhist forum and if the first month here has been anything to go by, I think my suspicions have been confirmed.

"Back in the day" before every man and his dog had access to the Internet, there needed to be a central hub for Dhamma discussion on the Internet because if there were too many forums, none of them would get sufficient traffic to establish a critical mass. E-Sangha became like the first city in the new electronic online colony - offering protection, shelter, a place to chat, and a place to come together as a Buddhist community. In time that city expanded, people had new and different ideas, and the population had risen enough that such ideas for new cities on the electronic frontier became viable. As these new electronic communities are increasingly established, I think it's important to look back to that big, original city and be thankful that it existed. Without it, and without the tireless efforts of staff, owner, and members alike, it would have been a complete wasteland, just like the majority of unmoderated discussion boards on the Internet that were also vying for members at the time. Without E-Sangha, and without the learnings from that experience, and without the communities established, I don't think the Dhamma Wheel would have established critical mass, and I don't think there would have been a ready-made community of Zen Buddhists required to get the forthcoming Zen Forum International started either. We have a lot to be thankful for... hence our Terms Of Service and our refusal to allow people to use Dhamma Wheel as a platform to badmouth E-Sangha.

I still consider myself a "friend of E-Sangha" and drop by when time permits and I would encourage anyone who has strong emotions about the site to just reflect on what it has provided by way of service and opportunities to the online Buddhist community, both in the past and now today. No one will force you to go there and no one will force you to stay. Given its size and given the prevalence of other valid options, E-Sangha no longer needs to be "everything to everyone" and even if it wanted to, I don't think it could. E-Sangha offers a valuable service, particularly I think to absolute beginners who can adjust quickly to the laws of the land.

Please don't let unwholesome thoughts about E-Sangha consume your mind and lead you to unhappy destinations.