clw_uk wrote:One problem I have though with the notion of Devas etc being purely psychological is the distinct presenation of them as actual living beings within the Suttas. I can see how they can be seen as both however.

A deva is a human being. However, like the Buddha, Mogallana and Devadata, some devas have some supernormal powers.

However, some of these devas with supernormal powers do not believe in the Buddha-Dhamma.

Like Christian angels, they believe in Godliness rather than vipassana truth.

Thus an angel prefers to teach humanity, for example, about eternal life with Jesus rather than the doctrine of impermanence.

They do this because they believe it is a more effective way to remedy suffering for those human beings.

clw_uk wrote:One problem I have though with the notion of Devas etc being purely psychological is the distinct presenation of them as actual living beings within the Suttas. I can see how they can be seen as both however.

A deva is a human being. However, like the Buddha, Mogallana and Devadata, some devas have some supernormal powers.

However, some of these devas with supernormal powers do not believe in the Buddha-Dhamma.

Like Christian angels, they believe in Godliness rather than vipassana truth.

Thus an angel prefers to teach humanity, for example, about eternal life with Jesus rather than the doctrine of impermanence.

They do this because they believe it is a more effective way to remedy suffering for those human beings.

Do you have any support for this?

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

ive read zen texts that explain the devas and ghosts etc in these sort of ways, for example one who is controled by their emotions, cravings etc is an animal since animals are controled similarily by instincts, one who hates themself is a preta and so on

so its not just a buddhadasa thing,

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

However, there is the text when just after Buddha was awakened, he was asked: "Are you are deva, are you a gandhabba, etc,?"

Clearly the Buddha was not flying in the sky with wings when he was asked these questions. He was simply walking with serenity and radiance.

Further, the Buddha answered: "I am awake".

Funny how Westerners come to Buddhism ('religion of awakened wisdom') but have still not overcome their superstitions picked up from the Bible, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, watching alien science fiction movies, etc.

To be a sotapanna, one must at least show some modicum of rational intelligence and abandon superstition.

All we are asking is that you tell us where the idea is written down. Having downloaded the book, I now think you are misreading Ajahn Buddhadasa:

Page 50 of Buddha Dhamma for University Students, by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:

41) Now consider the “happy state”
“Where is the happy state to be found? Where do we go to get happiness?”
In the texts, there is a passage which speaks of celestial beings (devatas) dying, passing away, coming to the end of their merit, and
coming to the end of their life spans. It also tells of their wishing to attain the happy state, seeking it, and wishing to know where to find it. In the end they come to the conclusion that the happy state is to be found in the realm of human beings. The celestial. beings rejoice saying, “May your wishes be fulfilled! Go to the happy state in the human realm!” The expression “happy state in the human realm” signifies that in the human realm impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-selfhood can more readily be perceived than in the celestial realm. In the human realm there are enlightened beings, there are arahants, and there are the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. In the celestial realm, that jungle of sensuality, there are none of these things. Thus, celestial beings come to the human realm in search of the happy state. It is ridiculous that human beings here should want to go to the celestial realm for happiness. Yet some people seek paradise, happiness in the next existence, in the realm of celestial beings. They invest in it by making merit, giving to charity, selling their houses and goods, and building things in monasteries. Where is the genuinely happy state to be found? Think it over.

I don't read that as saying that "devas are human", I read it as saying that the smarter ones want to be reborn in the human realm...

Last edited by mikenz66 on Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.