Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you know what his opinion is on whether Adolf Hitler 2actually issued an order or not? 3A.
[Professor Christopher Robert Browning]
I think his feeling is if you are looking for an order in 4a formal sense, that such a thing probably was not given. 5If you are looking at it in the way that you described 6earlier, calling it the Richard Nixon complex, that Hitler 7made very clear to Himmler and Heydrich what he expected 8and they understood what was expected of them, that he -- 9I cannot speak for him, but I believe he would not have 10been uncomfortable with that formulation. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
The kind of "don't let me find out what you are up to"? 12A.
[Professor Christopher Robert Browning]
Well, but also, "this is what I want but don't let me find 13-- don't bother me the with details". He often said to 14several people on record, "Take care of this. In 10 years 15report back that it was done and I will not ask you how it 16was accomplished". 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
In connection with what topics would that kind of decision 18have been made, not in connection with the Holocaust? 19A.
[Professor Christopher Robert Browning]
I think in terms of the ethnic cleansing from the annexed 20territories from Poland, he used that expression, to the 21Gauleiter along with Warthegau and Schlesier and 22whatever ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Gauleiter Dreiser or someone like that? 24A.
[Professor Christopher Robert Browning]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
He say he did not want to have interim reports, "Just tell 26me when it has been done"?

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1A.
[Professor Christopher Robert Browning]
That he indicated he did not want to be bothered with the 2details. He wanted it accomplished ---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we still -- I am so sorry -- talking 4about Raul Hilberg's view or are we sliding into your own 5view? 6MR IRVING: No. We are now talking about his own expertise. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is quite important to know whose opinions 8I am hearing. 9MR IRVING: I believe this is Professor Browning's opinion. (To 10the witness): Am I right? 11A.
[Professor Christopher Robert Browning]
Well, we started talking about what Hilberg and 12I explained what I thought he would be comfortable with, 13and then I believe we kind of shifted into how we would 14understand this kind of decision making process would be 15done that was not attributed to Raul Hilberg specifically 16but a general discussion. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, it may be helpful ---- 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I want to have clear is what you have 19just said, which was very clear, if I may say so. Was 20that your view, namely, he effectively made clear what he 21wanted done and then said, "You get on with it and I do 22not want to know the details"? Is that your view? 23A.
[Professor Christopher Robert Browning]
Yes. We have documented cases where, in terms of ethnic 24cleansing, he made that statement, and so I would say this 25is a way in which Hitler conveys or makes decisions or 26gives orders that we would not consider a formal order in

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1the sense of a signed document, and I would say that is my 2opinion, not attributed to Raul Hilberg. 3MR IRVING: My Lord, I should also have given you a kind of 4topic paragraph of what I intend doing today. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have made that clear before; it does help 6me. 7MR IRVING: Yes. I intend having this general discussion to 8start with and then we will revert to his report, and I 9hope that we will cover the first 25 pages of the report 10during the day which is covering very much ground level 11operations of the Einsatzgruppen on the Eastern Front. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. At the moment it is a sort of bird's 13eye view which is very helpful to start off with. 14MR IRVING: Indeed, my Lord. This kind of discussion is 15helpful because I do not know Professor Browning, we have 16never met, and we have never had the pleasure and I am, 17frankly, interested in finding out what he knows. 18MR RAMPTON: I have something to say, if I may since, we have 19now been told what the plan is. (A) I am not interested, 20I mean as an advocate appearing for clients, in having 21this court used as what one might call an historical forum 22an I dare say your Lordship is not either unless it goes 23to an issue in the action. 24 I heard with some alarm Mr Irving threatening to 25spend the rest of the day cross-examining about the 26Einsatzgruppen shootings in the East. Your Lordship may

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1recall that Mr Irving has made a very clear concession 2that those shootings happened on a massive scale, that 3they were systematic and that Hitler authorized them. So 4where ---- 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but, well, I do not know what the 6questions are going to be yet, but this is your -- I am 7just going to say something to Mr Rampton -- expert. He 8is saying what he says. He is making various historical 9assertions. Obviously, Mr Irving cannot resile from what 10he has already conceded, but he is entitled to go through 11it. I do not know exactly what he is going to ask. 12MR RAMPTON: I do not know either. If there is some area of 13Professor Browning's report which Mr Irving disputes which 14is still relevant to the case, then, of course, and it may 15be that there are other areas of the report which he can, 16as it were, try to use to undermine Professor Browning's 17credibility. That I cannot object to either. What he 18cannot do in cross-examination -- I am only putting down a 19marker -- now is to try, as it were, to go back behind the 20concession that he has made. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is helpful to be reminded of the 22concession. I do not suppose Mr Irving will 23but I certainly do not see any reason why he should not 24follow the path. 25MR IRVING: I do not think that was a helpful interruption at 26all from Mr Rampton. Normally Mr Rampton's interruptions

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1are welcome and very helpful but, if he had only waited, I 2have written in large letters here on my notes, "We do not 3contest the shootings". 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think so far, if I may say so, you have 5been perfectly consistent in the way you have put your 6case, but Mr Rampton was putting down what may turn out to 7be an unnecessary marker. 8MR RAMPTON: It may well do. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us press on. 10MR IRVING: You were talking about the ethnic cleansing of 11these Polish regions. What would have been meant by that? 12If Hitler had said, carry out the ethnic cleansing but do 13not tell me for the next ten years, just come back in ten 14years to tell me it has been done, would the ethnic 15cleansing have actually involved the mass extermination of 16any category of people? 17A.
[Professor Christopher Robert Browning]
That involved the mass expulsion of Jews, gypsies and what 18they said was other undesirable people, in these areas to 19be repopulated with ethnic Germans brought back from the 20regions of Eastern European conceded to Stalin in the non 21aggression pact. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
We have a bit of a problem, do we not, with the fact that 23parts of Eastern Europe had been conceded to Stalin? Do 24we have any clear figures as to how many thousands or 25hundreds of thousands of Jews had been dumped across the 26demarcation line by the Nazis into the Soviet controlled