The last thread had to be locked because I received a report of error messages. Perhaps the thread had reached a critical mass? Anyway, it doesn't hurt to continue where we left off in a new thread. If the last posts you tried to make there didn't seem to come through, don't feel shy about reposting them here.

Second verse same as the first...
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 06, 200802:23 AM:

It's been happening a lot for quite awhile. I was really hoping there was a fight
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 06, 200809:58 AM:

OM...it was just shy of 200 pages! have you no sense of timing???
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on November 06, 200810:30 AM:

OM just might have saved us from the Apocalypse! We were lulled by the seemingly uneventful achievement of 100 pages; who knows what might have happened at 200?
Posted by NSCutler (Member # 1403) on November 06, 200811:27 AM:

I haven't been able to read the Misc. Chat page at home for weeks. It was annoying. But to stop in the middle of page 198? Ah! Can't we unlock it, post it up to 200 pages and then retire it? It's like retiring with 2,995 hits. Or 498 home runs. HOW WILL I SLEEP AT NIGHT?!?!?
Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on November 06, 200811:32 AM:

I recommend a good book.A good HEAVY book.
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on November 06, 200811:49 AM:

Something like this happened at another Forum I post on and the problem is there is a max number of posts that the Database can handle in a thread. They are on the 7ht version of some threads.

Will the locked Miscellaneous Chat thread work from now on? If not, maybe we could lock it at, say, page 150 and start the new one with page 151.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on November 06, 200811:57 AM:

The only time I ever got an error message on Misc was when I was reading without actually logging in as Funean.
Posted by JoshuaD (Member # 1420) on November 06, 200812:05 PM:

Who WERE you logged in as, Funean? Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on November 06, 200812:12 PM:

"Guest" Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on November 06, 200812:52 PM:

Why did the moderator alert thread get deleted?
Posted by OrneryMod (Member # 977) on November 06, 200801:09 PM:

The Moderation Alert thread still exists but is no longer stickied because the zero tolerance rules are no longer in force. I felt it was no longer necessary for it to be one of the initial posts for everyone to see and read however it is still available to find via the search feature or going through page by page (I think at this moment it's dropped down to about page 3 although at the rate we go, that'll change fast). I've linked people to it from a few other threads as well, I believe, as warnings.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 06, 200809:00 PM:

Btw, is He-Who-Must-Be-Named gone for good now? (I'm afraid if I use His name that we will be inundated with threads once again.)
Posted by FiredrakeRAGE (Member # 1224) on November 06, 200810:43 PM:

You can't actually tell, but the shadowy figure on top of the building is a drag queen. There were police monitoring the situation all night, but they didn't feel the need to intervene. Later, they told everyone it was time to go to bed, which everyone did after cleaning up.
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on November 07, 200802:46 PM:

I just thought I would post a thanks to munga for all the education about energy and government policy it allowed me to notice what is a somewhat subtle difference in Palin’s energy speech last week. She advocated tax credits for wind and solar and other renewable energy sources while advocating spending 2 billion dollars a year on clean coal. Which means the government will give tax breaks for renewable energies but they will actually pay for putting up part of a coal plant. Without all the energy rants I might not have immediately noticed the difference in the two statements. So thanks for helping me recognize those types of differences in public policy.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 07, 200803:14 PM:

I think we can handle the loss of our beloved MISC thread if the thing is put in permanent downloadable document form. That way, if I have downloaded "MISC thread 1-198" then I can run as search on it right at home, not that I feature too much, I'm relatively new.
Posted by Mormegil (Member # 2439) on November 07, 200805:16 PM:

On UBB if a thread goes to 200 pages the stars go out. UBB was actually the inspiration for Arthur C. Clarke's story.

Re the 48 to 52 thing, I guess that's all about the Presidential election and not prop 8 in California...

I miss Tom Bailey being around to say something like, "Sure it's easy for the winners and losers to get along, since it didn't matter which Demopublican won."
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on November 07, 200806:11 PM:

Great links, MattP. But I shall say so here to keep them on the end of the legal thread. That can rest and rejuvenate while I get back to actual living for a while.
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on November 08, 200801:06 AM:

Yep it sucks, I would much rather have a solar farm nearby than a coal plant. Much better for the lungs not to mention all the other environmental factors.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on November 08, 200808:53 AM:

The old miscellaneous thread was blocked to my UK connection for weeks and I got out of the habit of looking. Trouble is I can’t think of anything now to write and I don’t suppose much has happened in the US in the last few weeks.

The remark above by Athelstan seems to me the final evidence needed that any Miscellaneous Chat thread should be locked and a new one started whenever it exceeds 100 pages. Letting it approach 200 pages clearly can trigger a variety of software limits which may cause some users trouble, but cutting it off at 100 pages should avoid such annoyances. Also there is no purpose in making our computers struggle with unwieldy blocks of data anyway. Maybe the threads could be let continue a bit longer, but 100 pages is a number simple to remember and hopefully small enough to avoid problems.

And yes, Athelstan, everything here has been very quiet so you have not missed much...

I just heard about this (Stacy is psyched) The new MS Vista whatever it's called, allows you to record shows off cable like Tivo or DVR and then watch them on your computer laptop whatever at any time. Sounds pretty cool.

I put this on the "Consumer Help" thread where we can help each other buy quality products, or not buy crap products that look good on commercials, but I thought this was important enough to put here on Misc too so nobody misses it.

Finally we can watch quality tv, movies, cable, anywhere on our laptops. This is as big as Tivo unless there is a catch I'm not catching?

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 09, 200802:13 PM:

I'm not advocating this, from above, but if you have a earbud in one ear and set your computer where it the screen can be set back to a work screen with a single click you can catch a thirty minute break without having to worry about your boss walking in and catching you.

Though that is TOO big a chance so you should probably save it for lunch time. Eat at your desk and watch a show to break up your day. Perfect.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 09, 200802:16 PM:

KEY: Bust your ass to get your work done and get ahead so the boss doesn't care if you take a few minutes personal time.

Us nonsmokers should get some kind of perk for not wasting company time and costing the company on their insurance premiums.

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 09, 200806:43 PM:

Not to rain on your parade, KE, but that's pretty old news. This has been possible for a long time, and using Microsoft operating systems without additional software since at least 2005. (Windows XP Media Center Edition.) In Vista you need the "Home Premium" or "Ultimate" edition to get the built in DVR functionality.

If you don't have XP MCE, or Vista HP or Ult, you can do this with 3rd party software. In all cases, though, you need a way to feed the video signal to your PC.

The best way for over-the-air TV is to get a TV tuner made for PCs. Once installed you just hook up the co-ax from your antenna to the tuner input and then set up through your software.

For satellite and digital cable, things are still a bit more complicated - you would probably want to have an external receiver provided from the TV service provider. Then you can have your PC control that receiver through a data cable or (more commonly, I believe) an IR "blaster" that functions like an automatic remote control. All in all it's still a bit clunky, IMO, due to the fact that cable and satellite providers have proprietary receiver equipment that isn't easily replaced with PC-specific equipment. It's been about a year since I looked into it in depth, but there was SUPPOSED to be some industry standardization for cable decoding hardware that would solve most of the problems, but it was being held up in various ways and a lot of people felt the incipient standards were deeply flawed. The cable industry had to be dragged kicking and screaming, of course.

The remark above by Athelstan seems to me the final evidence needed that any Miscellaneous Chat thread should be locked and a new one started whenever it exceeds 100 pages. Letting it approach 200 pages clearly can trigger a variety of software limits which may cause some users trouble, but cutting it off at 100 pages should avoid such annoyances. Also there is no purpose in making our computers struggle with unwieldy blocks of data anyway. Maybe the threads could be let continue a bit longer, but 100 pages is a number simple to remember and hopefully small enough to avoid problems.

Indeed; 100 is a perfect "milestone" number for a topic to end on. One can hardly complain that a topic that long has been cut off prematurely; I was once on a board that, for software reasons, locked topics when they reached ten pages!
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on November 11, 200809:10 AM:

I'm guessing you have to be a rabbit owner to be able to see disapproval on their faces. I see furry looks.

Or it could be in your head. What do you people do in front of your rabbits? Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on November 11, 200810:00 AM:

Some of those are definetely dissaproval. Others are just rabbits being rabbits You can tell by the ear state. If the pink of the ear is facing forward, there is no disapproval happening. One ear forward and one ear back is mild disapproval. Pinks of both ears to the side is "I'm busy." ears flat against the back is serious disapproval.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 11, 200810:11 AM:

My mice never disapprove of me. They love me unconditionally. A useful personality quirk for the pets of a semi-narcissist with goals of achieving full on sociopathy by 2012! It's a bargain, All! Morals! Must! Go!!!!!!
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on November 11, 200810:50 AM:

I don't have any rabbits; I just think the ones on that site are cute. Here's what the creators say about the origin of their site:

quote:It started years ago when Sharon and Bill Stiteler owned their first rabbit, a dwarf hotot mix named Latte. Tiny and cute as he was, he would hunker up in the bedroom and stare at them like a little Winston Churchill. He just always looked like he didn't approve... of anything.

Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 11, 200812:16 PM:

I failed at parenting today.

This seems like an un-resolvable dilemma:

1. Need to get in the car and go somewhere, now.2. Kid is throwing a huge fit and won't stay in the car. 3. Giving in to what the kid wants will just assure future huge fits.

If not for the "now" part I can handle this kind of situation with gentle force & time outs (Just pick the kid up and carry him to his time out location and keep him there until he calms down and agrees to cooperate).

If not for #3 I can bribe or relent, and we get somewhere on time.

Today I thought I could try not relenting and still being on time. I got mad and it didn't accomplish anything.

This sort of thing is hugely demoralizing for me. Not being able to get the kid to submit to my will, and recognizing that needed/expecting that to be possible represents deep flaws in my parenting. Not being able to articulate what it is that I should be doing instead: being clueless. I need to civilize this kid somehow.
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on November 11, 200812:19 PM:

I apparently stink when it comes to searching the archives of this site, so I'll ask the rest of you for help.

I'm looking for a thread in which we were discussing LDS baptisms for the dead being performed for deceased Jews. As I remember it, someone (I think it was Ricky) made a couple of excellent statements explaining the reasons that Jews react so negatively to something that LDS feel that Jews ought to see as a meaningless ceremony. I believe it had to to with a belief that invoking their name could have an effect on their soul regardless of whether the LDS baptism ceremony is of any actual merit in the eyes of God. I believe this discussion came from one of the most recent times we've been over this topic, but I can't seem to find it.

If anyone with greater searching skills than I can help me out, I'd appreciate it.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 11, 200812:22 PM:

The association with another religion's rituals is anathema. It renders you unclean. A religiously educated Jew will get a flash of revulsion at the idea of entering a church, much less participating in a service, and definitely being personally the subject of the service. An educated person, and or someone who has to, say, deal with inter-faith contacts, gets over it. But it's like a weaker version of the indoctrinated aversion to forbidden food. taboo, nu.

Again, all depending on what school of thought you're from. But for any religious Jew, it ranges from just pique without actual belief in metaphysical consequences, to belief indeed in such consequences.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 11, 200801:55 PM:

How old is the kid?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 11, 200801:59 PM:

5
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on November 11, 200802:57 PM:

Yes, that was exactly the thread I was looking for. Thanks. (I suppose I'll add that the exact statements I was remembering were from both Ricky and Everard.)
Posted by Brian (Member # 588) on November 11, 200803:45 PM:

Seriously, RickyB (or Hannibal, or any Israeli Lurkers):

Is Emanuel a common name in Jewish culture?

Wasn't one of Jesus' titles the 'Emanuel'? Or is that kind of like the difference between being A man and being THE man?
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 11, 200803:53 PM:

No, it wasn't. The Jesus-Emmanuel connection is Isaiah's snippet: "Lo, the maiden has conceived and bears a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel".

It's a not very common but not at all unheard-of first name. As last name... Again, not Cohen, Levi, or anything remotely like that, but it exists.

There's a leading TV anchor named Emmanuel Rosen, and the coach who led Israel to its only world cup in 1970 is Emmanuel Shefer, and the foremost living translator of science fiction and fantasy in Israel, whose translation of "Dune" is better than the original, is Emmanuel Lottem. I can't think of any famous last-name Emmanuels at the moment.
Posted by Brian (Member # 588) on November 11, 200803:56 PM:

So why didn't they 'call his name Emmanuel'? Why did they call him Jesus instead?
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on November 11, 200808:01 PM:

Presumably you're bigger than the kid, scifi. Power through!

(which is to say, pick his/her little butt up, stick it in the car, turn the stereo up REAL loud, and proceed.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 11, 200808:31 PM:

Pretty much what I tried, Fun, but he wouldn't stay stuck, and I tried escalating through volume of voice (I am glad to say that I didn't shout anything particularly hurtful, I was just being loud which I'm not glad of), and it just got ugly. He's big enough to make forcing him to stay in the car impractical. I suppose we could look for extra-large 5 point harness car seats that have child resistant release buttons. Sigh.

What I pine for is me asking him to do something, and it happening. I'll just have to keep working on it. In the meantime I need to be more careful about touching off a willpower deathmatch when i'm pressed for time.

Edit: I guess I didn't explain it very well but I was upset at myself for losing my temper to the point of real shouting, and despondent at the feeling of total powerlessness which I feel arises from my failure to teach my kid properly. While I was in the moment and losing my temper, I guess I thought (to the extent that I was thinking at all: not much) maybe if he knew I was really serious he would quit diving for the door every time I moved to shut it, and quit making it impossible to buckle the other kids in because he was scrambling to get out.

However, I COULD have gotten the other kids in, then inserted him through the front door and toward the back, and simply started driving while reminding him to get his seat belt on. In 5 or 10 minutes he probably would have sat down, and that would have been preferable to me yelling like an impotent *******. So, the advice is well taken, Fun.

And it has given me occasion to think about why there was a fight, and how to avoid the same thing in the future, so if I didn't scar my kids too badly today then I'll just maybe learn to do this right eventually.

Oh, scifibum, you certainly have to stop worrying about scarring your kids. I mean, you're going to. It's your job, man! Do you want to leave that to someone else?!

I hope I didn't sound like I was saying "now, scifi, you have to show 'im who's boss!" These little power struggles are distressing, not least because OF COURSE we can always win. It just feels like "at what cost?" I've come to conclude that there is no real cost to putting a stop to stuff like that. Generally, I think when they push the limits like this, they're really just trying to figure out how big the safe room is. While they truly might not want to do whatever it is, it's also true that finding out that you're still in charge of their (increasingly large and scary) world is comforting in the end.

On the practical level, a five year old is getting a bit old for time-outs (used properly, time outs are a safe place for cooling off, and so that mom/dad doesn't kill the toddler). He's probably ready for consequences. What has worked with my kids is:

1. explain that "no" isn't an option *right now* and you'll be glad to talk about what's making him so unhappy about having to do this once you're underway.2. give him to a count of 3 or 5 to comply, explaining that there will be consequence X (early bedtime, no TV tonight, whatever is fairly immediate and something the kid won't want), and he'll STILL be going.3. stuff him in the car and sit on him till he calms down enough to belt in.4. begin dramatic distractathon--put on some music and sing loud, stupid Al Yankovic type variations on the lyrics, as stupid and gross as possible. Allow child to regroup and don't mention the defeat. 5. proceed with activity as planned.

By the way, I don't think it's a bad thing for kids to see their parents get angry, as long as you're not *scary*. It's important that they know what they do matters to you, you know? And it's not like you were screaming at an infant for crying, or personally deriding him. Don't be so hard on yourself.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 11, 200810:01 PM:

Anyone know of kenmeer's whereabouts? I just realized he hasn't posted since Halloween. Should I worry?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 11, 200810:53 PM:

Was he refraining from Ornery in a sign of solidarity with Tommysama, who was temporarily banned?

Did he come back with Tommy?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 11, 200810:58 PM:

scifi,

I had one escape-artist. It got to the point that I determined to take extra drives so that I could watch him slip out, stop the car, and pull over to pull him completely out and whack him. Eventually, it got to be so dispiriting (he was climbing out because he wanted to cruise around in the car for the ride, rather than be restrained, and if the car-ride turned into a car-stop with whacking it wasn't what he was wanting anyway). I told him (he was too young to be told anything more sophisticated) that the car stops when people are out of their belts.

I know, it was a sorta-lie. I STOP the car, when people out of belts, but I said it plainly enough.

I do have a memory of one particular whacking when I pulled over, pulled him out, whacked him on the butt, yelling "CAR SEAT" and then I saw there was a policeman in a car right at the corner, watching and listening to me, but he didn't do thing about my corporal punishment. I was loud and mad but not scary.

By age five, if I get into a car with the kids and start it, and find that one block down the road they still haven't belted up, I stop the car and pull out and give em a whack on the butt, not because I had told them (which I hadn't) to get belted, but because they are in a car and know the rules, period. It's their job to get the belt on, or to ask for help before the car moves.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 11, 200811:17 PM:

I haven't had to do any of that in a loonnnnnnnng time. My youngest is six now, and he wasn't the escape artist (that was my 11 year old) and all the kids know the rules, now.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 11, 200811:21 PM:

Haggis,

KL just posted on the immigration thread. He's not lost, just avoiding you!

Shut up! Don't say his name! Lest he crawl back out of that Latin American hellhole and cover us in frivolous posts that even I feel dirty saying inappropriate things in.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 12, 200802:53 AM:

Not really. He mostly made arguments which did not serve the side all that well. Being a very prodigious poster, he also made a fair amount of good ones, and occasionally a really good one, but the scales tip markedly.

He was improving steadily, though.
Posted by NobleHunter (Member # 2450) on November 12, 200804:39 AM:

I figured as much. Maybe I'm not nocturnal, just time shifted. I'm an extra in a cable package?

But I'm almost done the work I have to do and sleep beckons. My spree comes to an end, I think.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 12, 200810:52 AM:

quote:Originally posted by munga:I do have a memory of one particular whacking when I pulled over, pulled him out, whacked him on the butt, yelling "CAR SEAT" and then I saw there was a policeman in a car right at the corner, watching and listening to me, but he didn't do thing about my corporal punishment. I was loud and mad but not scary.

"So why didn't they 'call his name Emmanuel'? Why did they call him Jesus instead? "

Um, because he was force-fit to the prophecy post facto? Conversely, someone forgot to deliver the memo from dad to mom in the barn? Emmanuel means "god is with us", with a shade of "with=among us" which is probably how many of my homie J-dawg's followers felt about him.

And by the way, what they in fact called him was Yeshua. You westerners with your Greek made it Yezus, and then Gee-zus and so on...

But my question was mostly answered by the post-facto point.It just seemed to me that 'Emmanuel' was slapped on as sort of a title, and that Jews would shy away from naming anyone else that. But I guess if Germans still name their kids Adolf (although more rarely) after only 50 years, that some of the association with Emmanuel might have faded after a few paltry centuries.

Does anyone know what percentage of incumbents in the house of representatives won their reelection bids? I'm just curious with the congressional approval rating below 20% how many of the reps we sent back.
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on November 12, 200802:58 PM:

According to wikipedia, there will be 52 new HoR members in the 111th Congress (Jan 2009-2011). Not sure how many of those new ones were due to the previous member retiring though...
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 12, 200803:29 PM:

We'd have to give up major portions of the OT if we banned parts every time some Christian went on about "See, see???? This PROVESSSSSSSSS that Jesus was the Messaiah".

This wikipedia link shows 4 HoR incumbents losing primary and 17 more losing in the general election (with two too close to call). Page also mentions 32 retirements (but at least one of those didn't occur since Duncan Hunter was reelected).
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on November 13, 200812:22 AM:

quote:Originally posted by RickyB: We'd have to give up major portions of the OT if we banned parts every time some Christian went on about "See, see???? This PROVESSSSSSSSS that Jesus was the Messaiah".

Don't laugh too much. You gave up stained glass windows in your synagogues and a considerable portion of your hymns in order to not look like the Christians. But I'm glad that the Tenach wasn't banned.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 13, 200809:16 AM:

"You gave up stained glass windows in your synagogues and a considerable portion of your hymns in order to not look like the Christians."

See God, Jews, and History, written by a very secular but very pro-Jewish dude.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 13, 200801:31 PM:

**** book. I have it. Couldn't read past a few pages as it was full of junk, such as "unlike the Indians and Chinese, who only had one great age..."

Please. I want ignorant yahooism, I strike up a conversation at the falafel place.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 13, 200807:26 PM:

I could not for the life of me think of the word falafel the other day. Knew what it looked like, tasted like, smelled like, even what it's made of...and couldn't think of the word.

I was describing it to my wife to see if she could think of the word, and she couldn't make the connection either. Later, she said "oh, falafel. Yeah, why didn't you say so?"

Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 13, 200808:17 PM:

A Jewish friend of mine just invited me to his JewFrat's falafel party. I was surprised, as I thought falafels were a middle eastern dish (Muslim dish). Then I looked at a little map in my brain, and noticed that Israel was in the middle east. Then I remembered a book I read describing how Jews have lived in the middle east for like, ever. And then I was sad for myself
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 14, 200804:03 AM:

There are two kinds of falafel. There's the Egyptian version, properly known as Ta'amie, which is made of ful, whereas the Lebanese (who are the absolute masters of Arabic/Middle Eastern cuisine) make it from chickpeas. The second kind is more well known in the world, as ful is artilelery level ordnance and doesn't sit well with the unaccustomed intestine.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 14, 200811:10 AM:

quote:Please. I want ignorant yahooism, I strike up a conversation at the falafel place.

It is one of my favorite things when you sound like an old Jewish man in New York City. Makes me a little ...homesick is wrong, but makes me want to move back there (which I might! who knows! fingers crossed on grad school applications!).
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 15, 200802:55 AM:

What, meidale, you want I should come take you by the hand and bring you back to where you can get a decent knish? Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 15, 200802:58 AM:

I think so, scifi. Yup, that's the one. Few things compare to the joy of a plate of humus with tehina, fava beans and chickpeas with some parsley, olive oil and lemon juice on top on a rainy cold day. Oh, and a browned hardboiled egg on the side. Very important.
Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on November 15, 200805:44 AM:

For fans of Doctor Who - New Doctor?Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 15, 200810:52 AM:

Years late, historians are going to look back at that photo and say the same thing we're saying now, 'WTF?'
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 15, 200803:05 PM:

Athelstan, couldn't find it. Say it ain't so. I love David Tennant.

KE
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 15, 200803:10 PM:

It told me the video wasn't available in "my country". What the hell?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 15, 200804:06 PM:

I can't watch the video, either.

Youtube is apparently segregating itself into various country oriented domains or something. I just tried to send a friend of mine in Canada a YouTube link, and she couldn't watch it.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on November 15, 200805:25 PM:

Oh come on! That's just silly. "Not available in your country."

Somehow I get the feeling that would make something like China playing internet censor far easier.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 15, 200811:55 PM:

As of yesterday morning, I own a banker's ass.

I'm just trying to figure out the best thing to do with it.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 16, 200812:15 AM:

Yes, but I feel completely unfulfilled by that 8000th post.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 16, 200807:25 PM:

I can die a happy man now. My only contribution to the world has been fulfilled. Oh, and my children of course.

But they're still up in the air Misc Chat is a success! Dare I say it; An American Institution!

KE
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on November 16, 200808:02 PM:

It is a lovely place to hang out, KE. Thanks for throwing such a great party!
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on November 16, 200810:10 PM:

So munga can you take his ass to the fed window to get the money for your project?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 16, 200811:21 PM:

yep

But we want the bank, too.
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on November 16, 200811:28 PM:

It seems to me that various frequent posters here either don't want to have serious debates on topics, or have no idea how to. It is disappointing the frequency that little phrases pop up that do nothing other than rile up other people. I refrain from giving specific examples, as that would implicate certain individuals, and I wouldn't want to implicate one without implicating them all.

Is it too much to ask that posts be reviewed before they get sent off into the abyss, and that we all check to make sure that our words are actually used to convey a meaningful message, rather that cluttering up otherwise good arguments with little insults? Those little jabs at others speak so loudly, that it's difficult at times to read the other words that make up the bulk of the post. Too often the main point of posts seems to be to that the poster let the world know that they are in every way superior to the person they are responding to.

I've written 2 or 3 times as many posts as I've actually submitted here. I often write a reply and then delete it without sending it. One reason for a significant number of those deletions is that I would rather say nothing, than to say something poorly.

What percentage of our own posts would we be proud to have others read?

(To be clear, my thoughts tonight are about needlessly combative writing styles, not frivolous posts or jokes. I love me a good frivolous thread as much or more than anybody.)
Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on November 17, 200805:42 AM:

It’s not only the BBC that restricts viewing as I found when I tried to watch a full episode of the Daily Show. I received the following message.

quote: Dear Great Britain

We’re terribly sorry, but full episodes of The Daily Show with Jon Stewart are not available.

But please don’t send the Red Coats in retaliation at this time, as you CAN get your headlines at Channel 4.

Talk about holding a grudge.

I was able to take part in the Green Card Lottery though.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 17, 200807:13 PM:

Alright everyone, brace yourselves because I am going to bitch.

When a poster has gone through the trouble of demonstrating how to do something, and it does work on paper, why can't the target of the post say, "well, that does work on paper, wouldn't it be great if the coalition of the willing could do that." Or, "Of course I agree with your ideas on principle, and just hope it could be enacted without too much squabbling."

Is the essence of Ornery that we can't admit when another person has demonstrated that an idea is viable or based upon a valuable dynamic that ought to be preserved for our good?

Why do I bother to post reasonable compromises when no one will ever say, "I guess you have demonstrated a point, and in your description I can see that it would work."

I don't ask that people get all the way on board.

In general, I argue pretty tolerantly of the opposition.

And PARDON THIS POSTER if I just bust a little blister here and say,

IT IS NO DAMN FUN PRACTICING PERSUASION IF NO ONE WILL EVER RECOGNIZE AND CONCEED ANY POINT AT ALL.
Posted by D Pace (Member # 1493) on November 17, 200807:38 PM:

Well, Munga, what you propose in the way of conceding valid points seems very viable and useful in an ideal world, and many would benefit therefrom. The realities of human pride and intransigence may render it unworkable in real-world applications, but I applaud your theoretical work on the subject.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 17, 200807:45 PM:

Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 18, 200810:55 AM:

So, I've jacked up my desk about two feet and am trying to stand all day while I work.

Back story is that I lost about thirty pounds over the space of about six months last year. Have managed to gain about ten back.

I think the culprit is that I have a new job that requires me to sit all day. I get home and sit some more.

Researching it, various sites give different numbers as to how many more calories you burn per hour standing versus sitting, but I think it averages out to be around 30 to 50 more or so.

Over an 8 hour day, even the low end loss adds up over the course of a day. So, I'm kind of psyched to see what happens.

Of course, the downside is that until my body acclimates, my dogs are going to be killing me.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 18, 200811:36 AM:

advice- get a spongy mat to help with joint and foot pain.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 18, 200811:39 AM:

Now I want to work from a recumbent bicycle that powers my NIC.
Posted by Lina Inverse (Member # 6361) on November 18, 200811:41 AM:

Sounds like a cool plan! Tell us how it goes.

BTW, if you get tired of it, you could get one of those big bouncy balls to sit on while you're at home; I don't know how much they do for weight loss, but they're supposed to help with muscle definition.
Posted by OpsanusTau (Member # 2350) on November 18, 200812:18 PM:

How does just sitting on the bouncy ball help any more with muscle definition or weight loss than sitting on, say, a stool would? I've seen them used for various exercises, but that wouldn't be just sitting on it.

Ops,

Right now I'm wearing fairly decent running shoes, so hopefully they'll provide the support and cushioning I need. I like munga's suggestion, though, because I don't really dig on wearing shoes all the time.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 18, 200801:07 PM:

At the gym last night there was a woman on one of those bouncy balls. I would have killed to be that bouncy ball. I don't know if it helped her but my muscle tone increased immediately.

Unfortunately she was the one hot woman on the weight room floor, all the other are in the balconies riding treadmills and bikes and I'm stuck on the floor with the steroid freaks.

I mean, I can understand wanting to be that big if you have a reason, like hitting a ball I country mile, but just for the sake of "looking" at yourself in the mirror. I was faintly nauseated and will start going later to avoid the pose off.

Don't women prefer a swimmer type build to the Hulk? And isn't that why we lift weights other than for health purposes?

That said I know it can get addicting to watch you muscles grow, but somebody needs to get these guys to an intervention. All my softball buddies looked like that but they did it for a reason. And got payed for it.

I wish you women could be a man for just a day. I know it's probably hormones or endorphins but there is no comparison between a man that is having sex regularly and one who is not. It just makes you 'feel' great. Confident and fulfilled all in one. And I'm talking about afterwards. I think if y'all got that a lot more wives would be having sex more often with the men they love.

Plus, it is a win win for the wife. If the husband is good it's a win win win. The husband feels better thus treats her better, wants to provide for her and succeed as a man, and well you get the third "win" for the lady.

I realize this is some trick our bodies play on us to keep the population growing, but it sure is one of the better tricks.

KE
Posted by OpsanusTau (Member # 2350) on November 18, 200801:30 PM:

Honey, what makes you think that's only men?

(PLUS, for women having sex releases the bonding hormones, which actually makes you like your sex partner more in general, which is useful.)

There is a really beautiful Finnish poem that I keep up on the wall. Someone who actually speaks Finnish translated it and sent it to me; it goes like this:

I got nothing, other than an observation that some dudes just like scaling mountains, and that having big muscles offers psychological benefits in social situations, I think.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 18, 200801:42 PM:

Storm, yeah: then my Ornery addiction could lead to some physical fitness benefits. Wanna reload that page? Pump those pedals, buddy.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 18, 200801:49 PM:

I've been thinking about my own personal sexual philosophy (guess what I've not been getting any of).

But still, I think its better to have thought about this than not.

Conditions under which I will have sex with someone in the order at which they occur to me:1. Physical attraction (Duh!)2. Trust3. Ability to obtain/use protection4. Recognition of the other person that sex is not a commodity to be traded for good behavior but an expression of lust and perhaps even love to be given freely5. Privacy (Oy that's a hard one (no pun intended) to get when you still live with your parents)6. Comparing each other's list of conditions for coitus

That's all I can think of right now...

I may start a thread about this later.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 18, 200804:08 PM:

"5. Privacy (Oy that's a hard one (no pun intended) to get when you still live with your parents)"

My roommate would always walk in on me and girls last year. All I ever walked in on him doing was cutting himself. Awk-ward!
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 19, 200803:12 AM:

Is it true that a grand jury in Texas has indicted Cheney and Gonzalez?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 19, 200812:47 PM:

Ace Frehley sang "The New York Groove"? Wow, I didn't even know he could sing. Much less a really good song like that. New respect.

KE
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on November 19, 200802:17 PM:

A review of the day's news on Proposition 8 shows everyone waiting for the California Supreme Court to decide whether to consider the various lawsuits. Meanwhile some sane partisans were calling for considered and lawful behavior, while various lunatics on both sides continued to propose actions which would be useless or harmful.

Meanwhile an email from OrneryMod on an unrelated subject mentioned incidentally that he, she, it or they were having difficulties which made it hard to keep up with the flood of material related to Ornery. Perhaps posters could help by stopping short of open warfare until that individual or consortium regains an accustomed feistiness. Since the position is unpaid, it seems unfair to make it harder than necessary.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 19, 200803:11 PM:

It would be fascinating to see who has sent OM the most complaints.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 19, 200803:26 PM:

Sorry, munga, I did not mean to suggest Ornery had not been peaceful. Surely more so than when tempers ran high before the election. If I seemed to be saying the opposite, that was careless of me.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 19, 200804:58 PM:

I was thinking the same thing; it seems to be going pretty smooth. But sometimes you think that and there is a thermal global nuclear war going on in a thread you care nothing about and don't even notice until it is locked.

Anybody else watch "Entourage" on HBO? I love that show.

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 19, 200807:53 PM:

Entourage is a fun show but...

...

it teaches me wrong things about what is desirable in life. There, I said it. It's unwholesome.

I still watch it, though. Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 20, 200804:42 AM:

Entourage peaked a while ago, unless there's a new good story arc in the works. The Medellin parts were fun, tho I don't know how realistic Billy the director's character is.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on November 20, 200810:59 AM:

Do you like all of it? Others have suggested it doesn't get good until you reach space.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 20, 200801:29 PM:

Took my dad and Jake to see Quantum Solace. As a action shoot'em up it was good. As a James Bond film, it wasn't. Not wasn't good, wasn't a James Bond Film.

SPOILERS****************************

No gadgets, no plot (especially if you didn't see the previous one), and worse NO BOND GIRLS! One semi-hot chick does not a Bond film make. I saw twenty times as many hot chicks walking in the mall the other day.

I swear I could have been watching The Bourne Conspiracy, or Shoot'em Up, (Except they were both better) or any of a dozen other such movies. There was nothing Bondish about this movie, other than "M". Judy Dench was good as always in her limited appearances. Q wasn't even in it. Unless I blinked or dozed off.

Edited to add: And don't get me started on the "time line". Prequel yet after Cold War and the few tech things they did have they stole from Minority report. At one point there was a super fast black jet trying to shoot down a crippled B 17 and it had a propellor? What? Not to mention you get into a dog fight with a jet in a B 17 with no gunners and no guns and you are dead. And damn the bad guys are bad shots. Not even a nick?

I have heard it is a remake of "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" With George Lazenby, Diana Rigg, Telly Savalas. Its the one where Bloefeld appears with S.P.E.C.T.E..R for the first time. And he gets married, only to have his wife die in the last scene. Next movie has Sean Connery back as Bond gone rouge tracking down Bloefeld to exact revenge.

Heard the latest was a combo of the two movies.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 20, 200811:30 PM:

re: changing of the guard......

Personally, I would rather have Stray and Cperry than our current complement of replacement-viewpoint representatives.

Stray and C were more respectful.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 21, 200812:30 AM:

"No gadgets, no plot (especially if you didn't see the previous one), and worse NO BOND GIRLS! One semi-hot chick does not a Bond film make. I saw twenty times as many hot chicks walking in the mall the other day."

Didn't say, "Bond, James Bond." at any point in the movie.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 21, 200812:36 AM:

no one but Connery ever really pulled that line off, anyway
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 21, 200805:54 AM:

quote:WASHINGTON—In the wake of their party's devastating losses in the last election, a delegation of Republican leaders has come to Capitol Hill requesting a rescue package of $25 billion. "We're seeing a potential meltdown in the conservative movement," party chair Mike Duncan told lawmakers Thursday morning, "with consequences that could impact directly upon millions of middle-class Americans and cause further devastation to our economy. I support the free market, but the Republican Party is too big to fail."

Words of wisdom from the genius behind the 'Laffer Curve', and others.
Posted by Chael (Member # 2436) on November 22, 200804:18 PM:

Thank you, KE. I was having a hard time putting into words why I didn't like the new Bond flick, aside from 'it's a middle movie; the plot is all set-up.' But you're right; it didn't really seem like a Bond movie...
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on November 23, 200803:20 PM:

I know a lot of you on the left are all full of warmth and sunshine right now, but a lot of you seem to have lost much of your innate human decency.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on November 23, 200803:31 PM:

Look, I forgot you'd been through a disaster (nor did I "know well" about the particulars. I don't study your life), and I'm sorry I reminded you of it.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 23, 200806:01 PM:

Red,

I'm happier than ever professionally, right now. I don't see certain disasters on the horizon, Summers might have a key position and I know he's got a particular idea (creation of capital on indication of products) far better than any conservative. Also, we are looking at possibly a requirement for equal access to the domestic civil contract, "marriage" and I don't think anyone can really think that is bad.

Kind of horrifying and amusing, all at once.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on November 24, 200811:36 PM:

Pretty sad that you can screw up such a simple ballot so much that it could be ambiguous.

quote:This Beltrami County voter cast their ballot for Al Franken, but also put "Lizard People" as a write-in candidate, not only in the U.S. Senate race, but for several others. The county auditor/treasurer ruled that the vote should not be counted because it's considered an overvote. Representatives for Franken challenged that decision. (MPR Photo/Tom Robertson)

RAMPAGE!
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on November 25, 200812:16 AM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Anybody; what does "Allonzi" mean in English?

KE

Well, if you're talking the French "Allons-y" (pronounced the way you spelled your word), then it means "Let's go."
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on November 25, 200812:18 AM:

quote:Originally posted by TommySama: Pretty sad that you can screw up such a simple ballot so much that it could be ambiguous.

quote:This Beltrami County voter cast their ballot for Al Franken, but also put "Lizard People" as a write-in candidate, not only in the U.S. Senate race, but for several others. The county auditor/treasurer ruled that the vote should not be counted because it's considered an overvote. Representatives for Franken challenged that decision. (MPR Photo/Tom Robertson)

Ha ha ha...

Lizard People.

Best whacked out theory ever.

Speaking of secret lizards who appear to be human and are taking over the world, anyone know anything about the "V" remake?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 25, 200801:44 AM:

Dear God, for a second there, I thought you were saying that they were remaking V for Vendetta.
Posted by canadian (Member # 1809) on November 25, 200805:36 PM:

Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 25, 200806:02 PM:

aaaah, every once and a while I get to take the bad guys out and really beat 'em. That's not an everyday kind of joy because the idiots have to assemble their own track record (in government, that is usually repeat non-performance) but in the end, it is very satisfying in a zit-popping way.

The real test will be not how many public officials get fired, but how many bad things are changed for good. So, on many things, still waiting.

Okay, so I had the weirdest dream last night. For some reason, a whole bunch of Orneryites were stranded together. It was not an intentional OrneryCon -- but dreams being what they are, I don't know why we were there. But everyone was there! We started a rock-type, because we were bored and we could, I guess.

It's the first time I've dreamed of you folks!
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on November 26, 200812:21 PM:

quote:When I woke up this morning and I read that the government, whoever they are -- that means this group of cretins from Yale and Harvard -- agreed to bail out their friends from Yale and Harvard to the tune of $7.1 trillion, I started running around the house saying, "It's Weimar Germany all over again." It's Weimar Germany all over again. It doesn't look like that, but it's liable to become like that.

What do I mean by Weimar Germany? Well, socially, we're far worse -- more degenerate than Weimar Germany. At least in Weimar Germany, men couldn't marry men and women couldn't marry women. So we're probably 10 leagues below the degeneracy that brought about Hitler. We're probably 50 leagues below the degeneracy that brought about Hitler. We are the sickest, most disgusting country on the earth, and we are psycholo -- psychotically -- we are psychotic as a nation.

It's a psychotic nation when the attorney general of the state of California, when the senator from the state of California named Dianne Feinstein, when the governor from the state of California who posed as a strongman gets up there and says that homosexuals have a right to marry that's equal to a man and a woman, they're insane. They are fundamentally insane.

He's probably right in his first paragraph, though ...
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on November 26, 200812:31 PM:

"We started a rock-type, because we were bored and we could, I guess."

What??

Like Gneiss or Peridotite or something?
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on November 26, 200802:40 PM:

quote:Originally posted by Lobo: "We started a rock-type, because we were bored and we could, I guess."

Gneiss would be a good name for an Ornery band. Whenever things get contentious we could "play Gneiss" to celebrate.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 26, 200804:30 PM:

I think I got suckered by a 90 year old Mexican woman yesterday. She was walking through a big field of mud beside the interstate and not making much progress. Probably would have taken her two hours to cross the field.

So, I stop and ask if she needs a ride, in my broken Spanish. She says yes and I help her up into my Dodge Ram. Then she says she is heading to the hospital but her kids are at work so they couldn't take her.

So, I take her to the first hospital on the list, but she says she needs to go to the other one. So, I take her to the other one, and on the way there we pass the Mall and she asks me to let her out there. So I did.

She was very grateful and everything, but if she wanted a ride to the Mall she should have just said so. Although it was about ten miles from where I picked her up.

I'm hoping one of her kids worked there and she was going to get him to take her, it was around lunchtime.

Has he ben arrested again?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 26, 200807:46 PM:

No, he spent 9 months for being TRICKED into shipping a 'bong', not mj, a 'bong', to Pennsylvania.

It was ****ing crazy. But I hope we haven't seen the last of Cheech and Chong.

Ashcroft named Mary Beth Buchannon, the woman that entrapped Tommy Chong, the director of all 94 District Attorneys in America before he retired. "You're doing a heck of a job Mary Jane. Oops, I mean Mary Beth.

Nine months for being famous. (His son actually sold the bong after being harassed and he took the time to spare his boy.)

The moral is; If The Man wants to get you The Man is going to get you.

Yeah, I knew he'd been arrested once. I just thought you were saying he'd been arrested again.

I'm really hoping decriminalization of marijuana is on the horizon. If it doesn't happen with this president and this incoming congress, then I don't know when it will.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 27, 200806:17 PM:

Therapy time:

(that means, beware I am going to vent)

I hate conservatives. That's all there is to it. I dislike the ones in office, because they are actively undermining the good of the people, and I really dislike the ones out of office (though I try to be as understanding as I can) because they refuse to consider the needs of all the people and how to have a responsible economy.

What is so great about being suicidal, I want to know? Where is the nobility?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 27, 200807:11 PM:

ok ok, I'm cooling down.

"I hate conservatives" ought to be replaced with, "I hate the Master of Darkness who has deceived masses of humanity into believing that recessive economic policy is God's plan of earthly peace and success."
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 27, 200810:28 PM:

munga, you need more perspective. You need more experience. You're too invested and convinced of what you believe right now. I think the ONLY way for you to be more productive and correct in your business efforts and political arguments is to back off of your convictions a little and try to consider differing points of view.

Just my opinion. And the only reason I'm offering it is because of the frequency with which you offer up black and white, absolute statements of fact about the character of entire groups of people. It's starting to look and sound like bigotry.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 28, 200802:08 AM:

scifi,

How many more politicians do I need to watch lie and steal and harpoon their own people? Your own in Utah are of the most despicable type, and I do not mean that hypothetically. You hear me harp on MS all the time, which I do because there appear to be very few here with any particular ties there, but should I get into UTAH? Shall I rehearse your particular venal, hypocritical scumbags by name and rank? MS only acted normally, but UTAH went the extra mile and stole technology. I have nothing but the deepest contempt for your leaders, because they hide their disgusting actions beneath the acceptable and imperturbable cloak of a majority religion. There are only a few things to shake my faith as strongly as the actions of the leaders in Utah. But fortunately, I know that man is a fickle, ****ty thing, especially when it is a conservative in elected office. I would love it, to find an honest conservative in power. But I have found only one in office and.. not in Utah.

MORE experience? Should I look to New Mexico, Arizona, Louisiana, Florida, Ohio, Kentucky? Would you like the names of the particular moral midgets there? Just let me know where you would like to stop?

Things like this really make it hard for me to believe that people aren't, at heart, venal, evil, and stupid.

Agreed...herd behavior is not exactly exemplary of lofty ideals. Just keep in mind there were a lot of people sleeping off their turkey, too.

I wonder if the retail industry bears any ethical responsibility to quit trying to feed this ridiculous 'black Friday' frenzy. I suppose I wouldn't want any laws about it, but - knowing that people are prone to stampede and fight when stores have these 'doorbuster' sales - wouldn't it be the right thing to not create the situation where the greeter gets trampled?

I am really not seeing how the retail industry created the situation where this guy gets trampled. I mean, a thousand other walmarts and other stores open without incident, and a bunch of dingbats go crazy, how does this mean the retail industry is at fault?

I don't know if I'd call your second example group behavior, exactly, beyond that they all were hungry.

I wonder why they went with ostrich meat?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 29, 200811:39 AM:

The Iranian government is apparently trying to promote ostrich meat as a low fat healthy alternative to beef and lamb. (shrug) Probably an ostrich rancher bribed somebody.

"I am really not seeing how the retail industry created the situation where this guy gets trampled. I mean, a thousand other walmarts and other stores open without incident, and a bunch of dingbats go crazy, how does this mean the retail industry is at fault?"

I dunno. I guess I just hope that Walmart is more changeable than the dingbats. I don't know how to induce people to behave like civilized people despite the prospect of super great discounts, when in their sheer numbers you could not convince any one of them to feel responsible for what happened. I doubt any of those shoppers are apologizing to the dead guy's family, because the responsibility for what happened is too spread out. Just like few of us would apologize to any Iraqi civilians who had family killed in our wars in Iraq, I guess. I'm no exception to the rule, and I can easily imagine myself part of that shopping crowd and not feeling like I did anything wrong. It's just sad.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 29, 200812:11 PM:

I'm pretty sure if anyone on Ornery saw a guy sprawled out in front of them, they would try real hard to at least not step on him or kick him.

My goodness, they might even stop once the crowd had dispersed to render assistance. Imagine!

No, as much as this might be attributed to mass hysteria where good people's individual will somehow evaporated, I don't believe it. This crowd just happened to be composed of evil, braindead, subhuman scum who chose not to care.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on November 29, 200812:28 PM:

quote:I'm pretty sure if anyone on Ornery saw a guy sprawled out in front of them, they would try real hard to at least not step on him or kick him.

The problem with a stampede is you don't get to stop if you're in the middle. Once you've been shoved several feet past the guy, it's extremely easy to conclude that it's someone else's problem. (Practically speaking, you have no power to do anything and there are other people with presumably equal decency who are now closer and fractionally more likely to be able to help, but they get shoved too and that's the problem.)
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on November 29, 200802:43 PM:

Actually some news articles reported there were police officers and other store employees trying to reach the man who was trampled, but it took several minutes because the crowd was still being forced into the store. In addition there were as I recall twenty or so other injured, so it may not have been clear who most needed help.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on November 29, 200803:20 PM:

Those poor people, being forced into the store.
Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on November 29, 200805:32 PM:

And now for something completely different.

After my recent attempt to show something on YouTube from the BBC ended in failure I was wondering if YouTube’s Monty Python Channel was available in the US.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 29, 200808:30 PM:

Klatu Maru? I can't wait. December 12. Although it doesn't much look like the original.

KE
Posted by jimskater (Member # 181) on November 29, 200810:05 PM:

Athelstan:

Yes

Now, will you please remove the penguin from the telly?
Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on November 30, 200806:22 AM:

Thanks Jim

Exploded the Penguin and now he’s like the Parrot.

He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace!

Perhaps I should start a thread on Monty Python Quotes.
Posted by jimskater (Member # 181) on November 30, 200809:35 AM:

Thanks Athelstan. Now I have to wash down the walls.

At least I don't have "Property of the zoo" tattooed on my bum.

But then I always look on the bright side of life.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on November 30, 200804:16 PM:

Well, I am disappointed with myself. Sorta.

Today, being a "fifth" Sunday (in the month) we had no distinct women's meeting, and just a combined men and women's meeting during the third hour of church. Today, the Bishop spoke and he covered many topics I felt were useful and good to hear, but then he got to his meeting with the other church leaders including Dallin Oaks (by training, a lawyer) and I am .... sad ..... at myself. Apparently, Elder Oaks told them that the Church needed to "take a stand, or it would spread all over the country."

I said nothing. Not because I couldn't think of what to say, or how to frame the questions, but because I knew I would be placing the bishop in the tight spot of asking him questions he should have asked Elder Oaks, and did not think to. Not kind of me, but saying nothing felt kinda wrong, too.

This penguin has ceased to be!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on November 30, 200808:22 PM:

They found a Squid with "elbows" in the Gulf of Mexico at one of the drilling sights. Cool.

KE
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on December 01, 200803:54 AM:

Well, munga, you know my position is that yours on ssm isn't thought out or even coherent. But I can tell you how I handle my own dissent when I disagree with what's being taught in the ward. I do agree with you that in the situation you described, confronting the bishop in the class would do no good for the reason that you described. In that sort of situation, I've simply stood up and walked out of the room. And later expressed my opinion to the Bishop. And when necessary, answered truthfully, "YES" to the temple recommend question about symathizing with apostate persons. Yes I agree with some of their teachings, and I don't know if those were the specific opinions that got them in trouble, and would the bishop/stake president like to clarify the matter for the church?

Similarly, if your questions were not loaded beyond the point of being genuine "questions," I don't think it would hurt to ask the bishop to pass them on.
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on December 01, 200804:01 AM:

quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Just like few of us would apologize to any Iraqi civilians who had family killed in our wars in Iraq, I guess. I'm no exception to the rule, and I can easily imagine myself part of that shopping crowd and not feeling like I did anything wrong. It's just sad.

I've apologized to Serbs that my country had to bomb the hell out of their country to distract from my country's internal squabble over a piece of intern. Magnified by my country's notoriously bad sense of geography that we apparently could not tell the difference between Bosnia and Kosovo. It doesn't get much sorrier than that.

Oh, wait it does get worse. My family was living in Shanghai at the time, and they offered many apologies that our idiot CIA targeted the Chinese Embassy for bombing. Did I mention I was afraid for my familys' lives at the time with all those angry PRC protests, like the Chinese mob that stoned that Albanian child?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 01, 200810:30 AM:

I don't think the CIA "missed" anything.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 01, 200801:21 PM:

Tell you what, Pete, how about you and I don't talk to each other any further on the topic.

You end up calling me stupid, and I end up calling you mean... so let's just not.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 01, 200803:31 PM:

Anyone in particular you're irritated with? I haven't noticed anyone new from Hatrack that hasn't already been posting here for at least a few months.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 01, 200806:39 PM:

I haven't been paying much attention lately, Munga, so I don't know whom you are referring to, but I know what you mean. There is a vast difference between Ornery and Hatrack and never the twain should meet. Unless the Hatracker has decided to grow up.

Once, years ago, I was really bored and nothing was going on on Ornery so I ventured over to Hatrack, it was like leaving a philosophy class that was having an open discussion and walking into a high school kegger.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 01, 200810:04 PM:

I felt similarly when I arrived here, from Little Green Footballs. (add "reactionary/fascist" to the kegger to visualize)

Nice place, this.
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on December 01, 200810:07 PM:

Which topic do you refer to, munga? Dissent, or ssm? I was talking to you about dissent. I don't recall us quarreling on that topic.

I'm saying that despite the cultural groupthink, there are actually mechanisms for doing what you seemed to be interested in doing, i.e. expressing opinions and asking questions that run counter to the apparent directions from church leaders. I thought that even though you claim to not be able to distinguish me from your conservative pew-neighbors, that you might hear what I had to say about dissent, given my experience in the matter.

But then I guess if you acknowledged reading what happened to me, then you wouldn't be able to keep up the "argument" that I'm just going with the majority because it's what I've been told to do. In that light, is everything just one topic to you, so we can't talk about anything? Would my having anything worthwhile to say on any topic would defeat what passes for your argument on ssm?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 01, 200810:13 PM:

just a passing whimsy of thought, pete.
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on December 01, 200811:09 PM:

I don't think I've ever called you "stupid," though I thought and said that some of your arguments and misconstructions were foolish. I don't think you're stupid either, otherwise your responses would not annoy me.

You want to stop talking to each other about ssm or about everything? My answer is yes whether you specify the one or the other, but I won't make a vague agreement. There are alternate, dare I say better and more mature ways to handle our conflict, but I'm not sure we have the common ground. You want to find out?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 01, 200811:28 PM:

I think we might do better, mostly, to avoid each other entirely. Passing comments, no biggie. But engaging in discussion does not appear to work for us.
Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on December 02, 200805:33 AM:

I’ve been updating the Family History of the Bird branch of my family, some of who lived in Salt Lake City. There are hundreds of Bird Surnames there so I’m revealing nothing. To do this I use the latest version of the free software kindly supplied by the LDS. I just noticed that there seems to be a problem with it. I am unable to enter civil partnerships into the software. If I enter a male’s name I automatically get the request to enter a female’s name and visa versa. Do you think I should inform the LDS or are they already aware of the problem?
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on December 02, 200809:36 AM:

You need to get the canadian or massachusetts version of the software. It is legal there. I think the california 2.0 version worked also, but the latest 8.0 doesn't...
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 02, 200811:07 AM:

quote:Originally posted by munga: I think we might do better, mostly, to avoid each other entirely. Passing comments, no biggie. But engaging in discussion does not appear to work for us.

You are not alone in this assessment.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 02, 200811:12 AM:

And to be fair to Pete, I think there are just certain people that rub other people the wrong way. I know I bother people, for instance. Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on December 02, 200811:17 AM:

People with different priorities never really get along. It's why we say that "beliefs" are one of the key predictors in marriage-stability.

Some people believe that it is acceptable for the civil law to dole out protection according to religious ideals, and I say it is entirely unacceptable and against my religion to dole out civil protections according to my religious ideals. I just think it is really really against God's plan for us, so I don't yield at all, and neither does my opposition. I also am very disheartened at the double-signals- the churches said to go to the civil courts, and when the gay folks did, the churches arranged for that to fail!

I try to be respectful but I probably don't always succeed. So, the threads turn sour here and there.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 02, 200811:20 AM:

quote:Originally posted by Athelstan: Now that’s clever, Lobo.

Actually, I wouldn't expect otherwise. The software is religiously-inspired and also entirely within the rights of the religion to write.

I wouldn't expect it to ever change.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 02, 200803:27 PM:

This is hilarious, I've been lurking for months and finally the posts I deem worthy of participating in are about penis innuendos and profanity. Just thought I'd post as many things as I can before I have to go to work, teehee.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 03, 200802:06 PM:

Heya IP. Not into the politics or the enforcement of irregular application of civil contracts, eh?

And that's fine.

Nice to see you.
Posted by Individual Persona (Member # 6105) on December 03, 200802:13 PM:

Well, when it comes to the politics, I'm most definitely more of a learner than an interjector.

Wowie!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some good news for the season!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 03, 200803:52 PM:

quote: Huge Stash of Marijuana Found in Ancient TombWednesday, December 03, 2008

Duuuuuude! The world's oldest stash of marijuana has been found in far western China, according to an article in the Journal of Experimental Botany.

An ancient Caucasian people, probably the Indo-European-speaking Yuezhi whose fair-haired mummies keep turning up in Xinjiang province, seem to have buried one of their shamans with a whopping 789 grams of high-potency pot 2,700 years ago.

Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 03, 200804:09 PM:

that is hilarious

way to sneak it into the country folks, as archeological finds!
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 03, 200805:25 PM:

blech, what a day. I hate "transcript" days----- when I just sit and listen to people do stupid things, on the record, and continue in it for hours. Hours and hours. And hours.

nice to have some ornery - my boredom-cheat.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 03, 200807:37 PM:

It's kind of amusing to me how many middle-aged women are really going for younger guys these days. Like 90% of the emails I get on a certain dating site are from women who are all older than me, and there are many women my age who are pretty open about dating guys in their 20s.

There's nothing wrong with it, of course. I just find it interesting that it's gaining so much social acceptance, whereas it used to be something that not many women would admit to doing.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 03, 200807:52 PM:

My first girlfriend was almost half again as old as me. (30 to my 21)

It wasn't, overall, a good experience. For one thing, she tended to act like she always knew more/better than me, because I was basically a kid compared to her. She also had a problem enduring any correction when she was mistaken (she felt 'attacked').

Now my wife is 5 years younger than me and it works out much better, because she can accept that I actually am smarter and wiser. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 03, 200808:06 PM:

quote:It wasn't, overall, a good experience. For one thing, she tended to act like she always knew more/better than me, because I was basically a kid compared to her. She also had a problem enduring any correction when she was mistaken (she felt 'attacked').

Ah, the defense of victimology.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 03, 200809:59 PM:

I married a man five years older- he is both smarter and naturally kinder than me. I "work" on myself.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 03, 200810:18 PM:

Well, to be fair, they apparently get swamped with offers from younger dudes. So, you know, as long as everyone's happy, it's no skin off my teeth.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 03, 200810:57 PM:

Probably good for younger women too. The young guys get taught what to do by the older women who aren't shy and know what they want in bed (and pass it on to the younger guys), so the young guys aren't total losers in bed when they do have sex with a younger woman. (Not every guy is obsessed enough to do research. Like I tell my boys; Anything you want to know somebody has written in a book. (And no I'm not talking about 'just' Penthouse Letters ) I've had to amend that advice form "In a book, to on the Internet, OR in a book. Hell, even I go to the Internet 'first' for info. Some changes are good.

Oh, and Tommy; this is probably good all around for you Omeg and T. Eventually young girls are going to have to realize they need to put out if they want to keep up with older women that are staying hot much much longer than they used to. Thanks to science and physical training.

OSC actually had some idea like that in one of his books in the Ships of Earth series, the older women were called "aunties".
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on December 04, 200806:44 AM:

quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here's a webcomic called Hereville about an 11 year-old Orthodox Jewish girl that fights dragons and trolls.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since Storm Saxon has mentioned this a couple of times, I finally got around to visiting the webcomic. The summary as provided seems misleading because Mirka has so far not even seen her sword, which she has rashly left in the keeping of a troll currently incapacitated. And she has not even found a dragon, let alone fought one. But the webcomic does have a bizarre charm, and I enjoyed it.

quote:And a cheery next-door neighbor has more effect on your happiness than your spouse’s mood.

quote:There’s kind of an emotional quiet riot that occurs and takes on a life of its own, that people themselves may be unaware of.

quote:“if your friend’s friend’s friend becomes happy, that has a bigger impact on you being happy than putting an extra $5,000 in your pocket.”

OK, here we go:

quote:A study also to be published Friday in BMJ, by Ethan Cohen-Cole, an economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, and Jason M. Fletcher, an assistant professor at the Yale School of Public Health, criticizes the methodology of the Christakis-Fowler team, saying that it is possible to find what look like social contagion effects with conditions like acne, headaches and height, but that contagion effects go away when researchers factor in environmental factors that friends or neighbors have in common.

Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 04, 200809:53 PM:

quote:Originally posted by hobsen: quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here's a webcomic called Hereville about an 11 year-old Orthodox Jewish girl that fights dragons and trolls.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since Storm Saxon has mentioned this a couple of times, I finally got around to visiting the webcomic. The summary as provided seems misleading because Mirka has so far not even seen her sword, which she has rashly left in the keeping of a troll currently incapacitated. And she has not even found a dragon, let alone fought one. But the webcomic does have a bizarre charm, and I enjoyed it.

One guy, the head of Bayer Chemicals TAR Division told me Monday he had audits to do Thursday and Friday and if I could catch him I could have a few of his minutes. Since the Gulf I, II, and 9-11 getting in plants is very difficult. But I had a good call at Bayer and as I was leaving I told my boss I wanted to try to catch this guy.

I called him and he said; sure he'd come pick us put at the gate. He took us back to his office and gave us the name to every Supervisor of all 8 units at Baytown Bayer. We are only doing business with one but have the contract for all of them. He and I hit it off so well he said he would introduce me to the Supervisors and help me all he could. My boss was muy impressed.

In fact, he texted me at 7:58pm to tell me what a great job I did today.

It was awesome! It couldn't have gone better.

I hope things are going as well for you guys. Or that they soon will. Y'all know how long it took for things to turn around for me, y'all were a big part of that, so whatever you do don't give up.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 04, 200810:58 PM:

If Morgan Freeman was God it would be sooo cool.

Stacy says George Burns was better, but I say Freeman. (Although they were both great.)

Case closed. I swear to God over half an hour after I made that post Stephen Colbert said he was going to have a guest named Nicholas Wade that claimed he could reconstruct a Woolly Mammoth. Colbert said that was playing God!

"And only one person can play God; Morgan Freeman!"

I couldn't believe it. Stacy was right here and admitted she was wrong. Case closed.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 05, 200810:14 AM:

Yeah, I don't think there's really any contest between Freeman and Burns.
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on December 05, 200812:40 PM:

quote:On Nov. 18, Bernstein [white] was discussing the conditions under which African captives were taken to America in slave ships. She bound the two [black] students' hands and feet with tape and had them crawl under a desk to simulate the experience, Monahan and Shand said. Monahan said the girls were not the only blacks in the class.

Yeah, I read that story. I tell you, I have done a few a few silly, mindless, probably unprofessional things in my career, but good golly -- I have never tied kids up.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 06, 200804:51 PM:

Sometimes I get kind of angry at George R. R. martin for taking so long in finishing A Dance with Dragons. I mean, for serious, is he carving that thing out of his living flesh where each page is some kind of monumental agonal spasm? Does he only write it when the planets are in proper conjunction?

Because I'm truly curious and I have no idea where (either on the internet at large or on the forum here) to ask, I thought I'd toss it out here.

Does anyone know what kind of ring you would use as engagement rings for a gay couple? I'm pretty ignorant of marriage customs in general, let alone any gay marriage trends, so it'd be nice to know with what I would propose in the future. Thanks for any insight, guys. Posted by jimskater (Member # 181) on December 07, 200811:52 AM:

Hitoshi,

You might let the ring do double duty.

Steve & I bought new rings in honor of our 20th, which ended up coinciding with the legalization of SSM. So we wore the new rings on our right hands as engagement rings, and didn't remove the "old" rings from the left hands. Just before the wedding the new rings were sent off to be cleaned, polished & engraved with our wedding date--and didn't put them on again until the ceremony. We took off the "old" rings the morning of the wedding and went into the ceremony bare handed.

Our intent was to keep some sort of symbol of our long term commitment on our hands during the run up to the wedding.

Steve & I bought new rings in honor of our 20th, which ended up coinciding with the legalization of SSM. So we wore the new rings on our right hands as engagement rings, and didn't remove the "old" rings from the left hands. Just before the wedding the new rings were sent off to be cleaned, polished & engraved with our wedding date--and didn't put them on again until the ceremony. We took off the "old" rings the morning of the wedding and went into the ceremony bare handed.

Our intent was to keep some sort of symbol of our long term commitment on our hands during the run up to the wedding.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that, oddly enough. But I like it. It's simple and works fairly well. Now, engagement rings are worn on the right hand, and wedding rings on the left? I didn't know that. Goodness, I have quite a bit to learn about marriage...

I like that you kept that symbol of commitment, though, up until the day of the ceremony. What a romantic touch.

Bad SS. That never even crossed my mind. Not to mention they'd be too small.

Hitoshi, traditionally (in the US, anyway) engagement rings are worn on the left hand, and are then joined by the wedding band. We chose to wear the ER's on the right hand, so as to recognize the 20 years we'd shared & the next 20 (or more).
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on December 07, 200805:22 PM:

Today is Pearl Harbor Day. Just wanted to remind anyone who might have forgotten like I did until a WWII vet reminded me this morning.

I was thinking today that the last of our WWII vets are going to be gone before too much longer. Oh, sure, there will still be some scattered around the country, but it won't be like it has been for my whole life where everybody knew a WWII vet. Both of my grandfathers served in the military in during the war (though neither left the continental US) and are both gone now. Also gone is the only man I knew who was a veteran of the German army in WWII.

I hope as those who lived through Pearl Harbor leave this life, the rest of us remember the events, to ensure that it really is a date that will live on.
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on December 07, 200806:38 PM:

The Complete Poetic Works of Michael Madsen, Vol. I: 1995-2005. A sample:

Edge

I went to Duparson Ventura Blvd for breakfast.Sitting at the counter smokingwaiting for my french toast and bacon.The yakkity yak yak, talk, talkdishes clank, cups rattlebull**** flying like the blue angelsall around me suddenly becameso loud that I knewthe crap in my life haddriven my head over the edge,my wife, my job, the city,the ****ing french toast.I made it back to the parking lot,lit another smoke and drove off.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on December 07, 200810:44 PM:

ANd realized he didn't own a car.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on December 07, 200810:46 PM:

Out living life in the fast lane.
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 4146) on December 08, 200811:56 AM:

quote:Originally posted by jimskater:Hitoshi, traditionally (in the US, anyway) engagement rings are worn on the left hand, and are then joined by the wedding band. We chose to wear the ER's on the right hand, so as to recognize the 20 years we'd shared & the next 20 (or more).

Ok, thank you for clarifying. Posted by Dave at Work (Member # 1906) on December 08, 200802:58 PM:

quote:Sometimes I get kind of angry at George R. R. martin for taking so long in finishing A Dance with Dragons. I mean, for serious, is he carving that thing out of his living flesh where each page is some kind of monumental agonal spasm? Does he only write it when the planets are in proper conjunction?

I think he only writes when Football is not in season. Seriously, from what I have read on his site and elsewhere, the guy is a huge NFL fan and while Football is going on everything else is a distraction.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 08, 200803:29 PM:

:/

Honestly, the book was theoretically almost done or something when A Feast for Crows came out, he has to have rewritten the whole thing by now at least once.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 08, 200805:21 PM:

Part of my problem with the gargoyle catwalk we've got going on, is that I feel partly-responsible, somehow.

quote:Sometimes I get kind of angry at George R. R. martin for taking so long in finishing A Dance with Dragons. I mean, for serious, is he carving that thing out of his living flesh where each page is some kind of monumental agonal spasm? Does he only write it when the planets are in proper conjunction?

I think he only writes when Football is not in season. Seriously, from what I have read on his site and elsewhere, the guy is a huge NFL fan and while Football is going on everything else is a distraction.

For a moment, I thought you were talking about Tommy, and then I thought: "Shouldn't that be 'sex' and not 'football'?"
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on December 08, 200806:51 PM:

Reading, and trying to convince a girl to go out with me
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 08, 200807:38 PM:

"The Unit" could not be any better.

If "River" wasn't so hot it wouldn't be tied with "The Sarah Conner: Chronicles".

I think Doctor Who used to be good but it's been so damn long I can't remember.

When did "hiatus"s start taking six months?

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 08, 200810:25 PM:

Anyone else get inordinately satisfied when the "spell check" tells you "No spelling errors were identified!"?

No, well than I win the geek of the week award. High praise indeed in this basket of egg-heads.

God bless all of them that fell in our defense, God bless those that stood with them, and God bless all those that fight, or fight, in any way, to preserve our freedom and our way of life. Those who cook and stitch wounds also serve. And damn anybody that would waste those lives lightly or in vain. (Only they know who they are and what their motivations were.

This country, our country, is worth fighting and dying for.

We are all lucky, or blessed, depending on your point of view, to be born and live here. In historical terms; we won the freakin lottery! (I've explained that to my children since they were children. All Americans should. And explain why. The ideas. The foundation. The Constitution. The Freedom. And the opportunity.

Let's pass that all on to our progeny! May the entire human race someday enjoy that which too many of us take for granted. May we appreciate it more.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 08, 200811:56 PM:

Amen!
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 09, 200802:54 PM:

"Anyone else get inordinately satisfied when the "spell check" tells you "No spelling errors were identified!"?"

I can't just sit around being inordinately satisfied all day.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on December 10, 200803:23 AM:

Dave is correct. Martin has his priorities straight Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 10, 200802:04 PM:

KE: I just read your statements on the whole younger women thing. Good point, btw. Let's just hope such a thing occurs.

Eesh. My best friend is getting a divorce now. She's 21, we have essentially been having a continuous, running conversation for several years via all the modern means of communication, hot as hell, and has a 1 year old baby.

She's going back to school, for a math degree, I believe. It's weird, but she's closer to me than she ever was to her husband. Is that weird? Is it strange, honestly, that she tells more of herself to me than to him? I mean, they're getting a divorce now, but I mean, for a long time before that.

Then again, I've known her much longer than she knew her husband, too... I'm just glad she's moved away. Because she's admitted outright she'd try to seduce me if she were in the same city now.

Well, gladness mixed with the thought "god damn it."

The word I'm looking for is ambivalence.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on December 10, 200809:47 PM:

It's not weird or strange if you consider that she was having an affair with you, basically. I mean, you might not have felt that way about it, and it wasn't physical, but think about it....her emotional allegiance was where? And whole ergs of her emotional and sexual energy? Not with her husband, that's where.

You're right to feel relieved (don't worry, they won't take your guy card away--it's saved by the ambivalence. )

Don't date her unless/till she realizes that this was a problem. And run awaaay from women who are in committed relationships but want to have this kind of primary emotional connection with you. Or vice versa--women who say they want to be with you, but are maintaining a primary or even very strong emotional relationship with another guy. You're not "just friends" if you're closer than the spouse, you know?

(I'm not an Aghast Busybody, really--I've just been on both sides of this and am no longer able to pretend it's anything other than what it is)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 10, 200810:21 PM:

My wife was married and divorced before 21, before she met me. In her case it was the husband who had the primary emotional relationship with someone else (and my wife suspected it was more than emotional). Anyway, thank goodness there were no kids.

Honestly, without a lot of directed support, I just don't think most 19 or 20 year olds make good married people. I agree, to an extent, with Card's arguments about the importance of strong societal expectations and reinforcement to ensure resilient marriages. However, I also think that delaying marriage - as the LDS church specifically advises against - might be a good idea so kids don't get in over their heads or their maturity level. I think a longer period of freedom with the goal of eventual monogamy can probably substitute for rigid social structure to some extent. As you get older and have one or two longish relationships as a working adult, you get a better idea what the long haul will be like, and you can make a more meaningful commitment.

I'm sure there's a tradeoff in having multiple premarital sex partners...in the specialness department. Also too many breakups might kind of inure one to actual closeness and intimacy...but I'm not sure those factors outweigh immaturity.

Just anecdotal, of course, but I have two younger brothers who to my knowledge were abstinent prior to marriage, got married at 21, and they've both had a rocky start to their unions - they have stayed the course so far, but it's been harder for them than it has for me, and I only waited until I was 26 to get married.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on December 11, 200802:04 AM:

"It's not weird or strange if you consider that she was having an affair with you, basically. I mean, you might not have felt that way about it, and it wasn't physical, but think about it....her emotional allegiance was where? And whole ergs of her emotional and sexual energy? Not with her husband, that's where. "

Yeah, I know. I've known her many years. She's been married for a fairly short time. I'm aware of this, and I'm aware of the problem involved.

And she'd acknowledged part of it. I think she doesn't feel having someone being emotionally close is a problem in and of itself.

But her relationship with her husband had a lot more happening. Yes, I'll say that's how it ended up. I'm fairly certain if their relationship hadn't been problematic that it wouldn't have ended up that way.

It certainly wasn't that way, incidentally, until (and what an amazing coincidence!) the intimacy between the two of them, based on shallow things to begin with, faded away. I've been counting.

So I guess I was only pretending to be ignorant of it. I've brought it up to her before. But their marriage has been dead for a long time now. They only got married because of the baby, anyway...

I suppose, then, I didn't help matters. But I've been this girl's friend. And I only realized how close we became a relatively short while ago. I only realized how it really was much more recently even then that.

And at that point, I did everything I could to be as completely neutral on her marriage as possible. Urged her to try to make things work, and supported her decisions. But I made sure it was HER decisions, and did my best not to influence it.

To be honest I'm quite depressed about it, and in true reality it bothers me greatly. I know her very well. I certainly don't know for certain whether she'd be monogamous in the long run. She's not like other people I know... but if things went badly, I know what is in her power to do.

She has her flaws. And I think she needs to grow up a little. I'd not dare try to date her now, anyway. She still needs to grow up a little bit. I really think she isn't ready to settle down anyway, and I wouldn't dare try to force one like her to.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on December 11, 200802:34 AM:

So Funean, I suppose I'm at least partly culpable. I know for certain I'm not the cause of the breakdown of their marriage... but I've been her friend a long time, and though I only realized until it had already become clear that I and she were the closest friends either of us has, emotionally she was cheating on him with me (if you could really call it that. He wasn't showing her any more emotional affection, in fact probably less)

Bah, I use such lovely excuses. True ones, valid ones. But I was still culpable, I feel. I feel a little bad about it. I didn't enter into such a thing on purpose. But I didn't distance from myself after I realized, either.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 11, 200803:27 AM:

So, some chick thousands of miles away from me just sent me an email that I'm handsome. Great, right?

Well, not so much. Problem is that she's not very attractive.

So, I sent her back a reply and said 'Thanks so much for the compliment! ' (Note the smiley face.)

I just feel like kind of a jerk for not being able to tell her that she's cute, too. I almost feel like I should have lied, because women very rarely make compliments like that openly to dudes, and I kind of feel like they should be encouraged to do so; plus, it would have made her feel good. she lives thousands of miles away, what's the harm, right?

I just foresee some kind of weird infatuation following my compliment where I eventually have to tell her, look, I was just being nice, o.k.?!?

I don't know. Kind of sad because she is kind of a cool person that I could definitely see enjoying interacting with online.

quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: So Funean, I suppose I'm at least partly culpable. I know for certain I'm not the cause of the breakdown of their marriage... but I've been her friend a long time, and though I only realized until it had already become clear that I and she were the closest friends either of us has, emotionally she was cheating on him with me (if you could really call it that. He wasn't showing her any more emotional affection, in fact probably less)

Bah, I use such lovely excuses. True ones, valid ones. But I was still culpable, I feel. I feel a little bad about it. I didn't enter into such a thing on purpose. But I didn't distance from myself after I realized, either.

OMega, are you sure you aren't her gay male-friend? Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 11, 200806:06 AM:

SS - This is kind of a cowardly way to handle it, but if you are really sure you aren't attracted to this lady and never will be, you might want to mention how attracted you are to someone else. That will mean that your lady-friend, as only a friend, has to support you while you chase some other tail, even if that tail is someone you passed in the hallway and don't know her name. You may call it cowardly, but I think the alternative- telling this lady that she's ugly to you- isn't brave, it's mean and unnecessary. She may sometime be (especially through communication with men to refine her skills of conversation and general betterment of herself as we should all be doing over time) someone else's cup of tea. No need to let her know she's not yours.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 11, 200807:13 AM:

A bit of good news from a yearly poll, called Monitoring the Future, conducted by the University of Michigan, which interviewed 46,000 eighth-, 10th- and 12th-graders from 386 public and private schools nationwide.

quote:In 1991, 7 percent of eighth-graders, 13 percent of 10th- graders and 19 percent of 12th-graders smoked cigarettes daily. By this year, only 3 percent of eighth-graders, 6 percent of 10th-graders and 11 percent of 12th-graders said they were lighting up daily.

If the barrage of anti-tobacco advertising is actually having an effect I'll quit complaining about it. I was convinced that no one was learning anything from hearing about smoking risks incessantly, but...if the numbers are dropping, perhaps I was wrong.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on December 11, 200804:23 PM:

I have to imagine making cigarettes hella expensive didn't hurt.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 11, 200804:33 PM:

quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: munga:

Erm... what? o_o Gay male friend? Why do you suggest that?!

I'm joking, 0Mega. Often, women talk about having a gay guy-friend. They are "a girl's best friend" so often in movies.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on December 11, 200804:35 PM:

I understood it was a joke. But I was not aware of what you were getting at. I probably should have, though.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 11, 200808:01 PM:

Well, jokes on me, anyway.

I just had to explain to my 11 year old what the "F" word was. It was learn it from me or elsewhere, I figured. I can't take him out of the world so I guessed he needed to understand it.

I really don't recall my parents teaching me any such thing, I caught on from all the drunk college kids in my home town.
Posted by hobsen (Member # 2923) on December 11, 200809:39 PM:

Seems a little old for him to learn where babies come from? But maybe you just had to tell him that was an offensive name for the beginning of the process...
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 11, 200810:06 PM:

Going through the etymology would actually be a good way of doing it, and educational, too.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 11, 200811:57 PM:

Hobsen- THIS is the kid for whom baby-making became a favorite conversation starter when he was six, when we had unfortunately told him the sanitized truth. He was charmed and thought it was the most wonderful, interesting and universal topic he had ever considered.

SS- that was exactly what I did. It was still...... embarrassing for both of us, but he was glad to know what the others know.

It snowed three and a half feet in my backyard the other night. Wednesday night I think. It might have been three and a half inches but it looked like a lot.

Jake made snow angels in the back yard and pelted me with "snowballs" that were only slightly more dense than baseballs.

He had a blast.

It was the most snow I've seen since I was five (as far as I can remember). It's back up in the sixties now.

KE
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on December 12, 200807:39 PM:

In Keeping with both the F word and December &, 1941 theme, an old professor of mine was rambling about differences in the combat vocabularies of the varied Allied and Axis powers during the war. By that he meant the nature of how commands were communicated and spoke both in face to face and over air situations. He then went on to explain that from both oral history, dictated staff genral staff records, and transcripts of the varied nations' radio transmissions that were compiled after the war the following fact.

Globally from September 1939 until August 1945 the "F" word became the single most spoken word across all languages- beating out even "The", "A", "And", and all the other little articles of language of not only English but even the various dialects of Chinese. Meaning that almost universally across the board on almost every continent, The F Word was being uttered almost non stop and simultaneously by combat troops of almost every nation even if they knew no other English. Also during the Battle of Britain and the later Allied bombings over Germany, there were periods of time where every single second of the day for months on end someone in a plane over Europe was screaming The F Word over an open radio mike.

I am obviously leaving out a bunch of the info in the story, but the basic thing the professor was telling us was that in a span of a little less than 6 years The F Word went from being a fair to middling run of the mill expletive to being the most spoken word in the English language and for a time the single most universally uttered word of all language.

Having read some combat transmission transcripts I think the tally count was probably pretty low because a lot of the utterances of the word were cut of in the midst of it being uttered.

One of the reasons The F Word made it onto Carlin's list was a direct result of the backlash people of that generation had against the word once they returned to civilian life and also it is one of the reason's the Boomers took such delight in shouting it all the time during the Summer of Love.

Oh and my house is almost done.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 12, 200808:09 PM:

well, then, I can now rationalize that I was helping my son become more cosmopolitan.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 13, 200801:51 AM:

Redskull,

That's neat.

***********************

Appropriate of nothing, the discussion of Roman marriage traditions reminds me how much I love the words "Where you are Gaius, I am Gaia."

They're just so poetic and lovely.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 13, 200804:03 AM:

Gaia! Don't get me started! I have a sneaky feeling that is how they are going to ruin "The Day the Earth Stood Still". Just told my buddy that today while shooting pool.

Thank God for Valium, Vicodin, and most of all Crown Royal. Yes, you guessed it; nother tooth gone bad. Dentist appointment Tuesday at 3. In America no less. Guess I'm going to need more shots...

KE
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on December 13, 200802:54 PM:

KE - Can't you just get 'em all yanked and go whole hog with the dentures? Gosh, I'm so sorry to hear this. Argh, awful timing, too.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 13, 200809:45 PM:

quote:Gaia! Don't get me started! I have a sneaky feeling that is how they are going to ruin "The Day the Earth Stood Still". Just told my buddy that today while shooting pool.

I don't get it...
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 13, 200811:03 PM:

CP, might have been prudent earlier but I've spent so much on crown, root canals and porcelien bridges that it is too late now. Luckily my Aunt had a different kind of 'antibiotic' that I started today and I am feeling better.

Weird how they go one at a time. Never two or three, always one at a time.

Thanks for the concern CP, all.

Thank God I have dental insurance to a point now, and the crowns are actually cheaper here than in Mexico for now. But only one a year and then it's back to Mexico. Eventually, soon, will all be done.

HEY, Obama just said that he can't imagine any game more fun than a pick up game of basketball. Though football was my passion growing up, and softball what I got paid to do, basketball is the most fun game. Especially when it is played as a 'team' sport. Unlike football or basketball you don't have to wait forever to take another shot should you miss one. And you can help out in so many different ways. Look at Rodman. Couldn't play a lick of basketball but was integral to the Bulls championships.

"Deadwood" on HBO has got to be one of the most unique shows ever.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 13, 200811:13 PM:

Keanu just said "Science fiction is kind of like a Trojan horse because so much more can exist in it. Science fiction is a great medium for us to take a look at ourselves. It tends to reflect our hopes and our dreams."

He may seem like a surfer goof, but when it comes to sci-fi he gets it.

POSSIBLE SPOILER ******************************

SS, I'm afraid that unlike the original they are going to use this one as a vehicle to push the Environmental Agenda. And I am of the opinion that the Earth exists for us to live on. If it is not fit for us to live on or we have ****ed it up too bad to live on it then it is of no 'value' in and of itself. Gaia doesn't mean anything without sentience.

Why else would he insist "The Earth is not OUR planet." or that he is here to "Save the Earth from us."

Now if like the first one his people were afraid of our growing technology and war like behavior I could see them wanting to police us or destroy us, but "protect the planet from us". What can that mean other than environmentalism?

Have any of you seen on the History Channel that documentary "What the Earth Would be like Without People?" (Or maybe the travel channel) Who gives a ****?!!! If we're not here it's a pretty rock covered with fungus and various chemicals. Beautiful yes, but important, no!

Funny, huh? Can you imagine going through life with that name? You'd have to hit people who yell "Stella!"
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on December 14, 200803:26 PM:

For some reason, Minnesota decided to go from 10 degree averages to 37 for two days. Today when I got up it was 38. In one hour it will be -2 with up to -35 degree windchill (20-30 mph winds). I am actually stunned at how hard Minnesota blows...
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on December 14, 200804:31 PM:

Poor George. He can't get any respect anymore. I guess that is what happens when you piss in the face of the world for 8 years.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 14, 200807:00 PM:

Wow, I hope the shoe-thrower is ok...... next week.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 14, 200811:48 PM:

Red, I am very very happy your house is ready, or almost ready.

Thanks again CP.

Anybody know why that guy through shoes at President Bush? I have a migrane right now, so maybe I'm just not getting it, but that just seems weird? What did Bush do to deserve this?

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 14, 200811:54 PM:

Oh, I read the article. I didn't realize it was an Iraqi. Seems like Bush hadn't it pretty well.

KE
Posted by jimskater (Member # 181) on December 15, 200801:57 AM:

Evidently, in Arab cultures, shoe throwing is an insult of the highest order.

Yup. I knew y'all would need that nuance translated Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on December 15, 200809:39 AM:

Bush handled it well. However, real class would have been to catch one, or pick it up, and go "I believe this is yours..." (Or "someone lose this?"). Still, good handling.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on December 15, 200811:44 AM:

I rather thought Bush enjoyed it, tell the truth.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 15, 200801:12 PM:

Bush handled it so well it seemed like he was well used to dodging shoes at press conferences.

I wonder if he and his staff run drills for this kind of thing.

Or if Laura privately has a fragile temper. Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 15, 200806:32 PM:

If you work for a large company let me know how well this accords with your experience:

Memos from executives are like fortune cookies. They tend to contain optimistic and confident assertions about the future, and also to be vague and difficult to falsify. They also seem to have been excessively baked.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 15, 200806:54 PM:

I don't care about Bush. I hope the shoe-throwing is ok in the future, or if there will be any unjust consequences for his free-speech antic.
Posted by FiredrakeRAGE (Member # 1224) on December 16, 200812:36 AM:

I was watching some of the tributes to the fallen soldiers of Canada, US and UK on YouTube last night. On reading some of the comments posted on these sites could make you think the internet was the home of some disturbed people. Certainly, for me, it dented the old saying "I wholly disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 16, 200804:47 AM:

New to the internet, are we?

Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on December 16, 200808:47 AM:

quote:Memos from executives are like fortune cookies.

Indeed. Or as we sometimes say in the software industry, pronouncements from management one or more steps removed are nondeterministic.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on December 16, 200811:20 AM:

What my experience with quacks of like, and why I now seek other ways to treat depression:

Is it just me or does Scott Adams's blog just suck now? He's either shilling a product or making weirdly obtuse predictions. (Half the time he makes subtle equivocations to arrive at a surprising result, but it's not quite clever enough to be interesting.) Maybe he's just trying to provoke people who aren't smart enough to get the joke. Maybe I'm one of them.
Posted by elk (Member # 6369) on December 16, 200805:36 PM:

I haven't really been reading it all that consistently, but when do you think the trend started? To an extent I would disagree that his blog isn't quite clever enough to be interesting. I would place it (on average) as just interesting enough to keep reading. Then again, I did have to look up 'equivocations' Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 16, 200806:12 PM:

Well...

really...

It was a dumb question for me to ask.

If you read it regularly, you find it interesting enough to be worth the time. If you don't, you won't know the answer. And I expose myself as interested enough to read it, and thus the complaint rings false, or silly enough to keep reading it even if I don't find it interesting.

The only sensible thing for me to do if I don't like reading the blog is to quit reading it.

FWIW, I think it started going downhill about 2 months after I started reading it, around July 2008. I think the simplest answer is that I liked it when his writing style was new(ish) to me, and the novelty has worn off.

The topic was whether the fact that Barack Obama will be sworn in as "Barack Hussein Obama" makes it okay for anyone to use Obama's middle name. A perfectly reasonable caller said that you have to consider the context and then said, ostensibly by way of example, "So since Jesse Jackson, Jr. used all those nasty names for women when he was on Howard Stern, it's okay for you to do that?" Sean replied, "Well, I don't know what he said on Howard Stern---"; and then the show went dead for a few seconds as they cut the caller off.

I thought it was pretty funny. I think that's how you have to do one of those prank calls: have a point that you honestly want to make and slip Howard Stern's name into it almost without forethought.
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on December 17, 200810:20 AM:

I don't get how it was a prank call. Just because he used Stern's name? That show must be in the toilet if that is what their game is these days...
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on December 17, 200810:28 AM:

I assume it was a prank call since they cut him off and when Sean got back on he said, "Nice try. You didn't win, I win." (I'm guessing Jesse Jackson, Jr. wasn't on Howard Stern.)

Apparently Howard Stern listeners do this all the time.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 17, 200801:25 PM:

I just made myself laugh thinking of two Texas guys throwing their boots at each other.

I guess it's a cultural thing. Pretty ****ing bad when you live in a place so devoid of things that you can't find a decent rock.

I know a lot of you are old but if you have an original recording of the broadcast (somebody sent me mine bootleg) and you slow down the film on the Zapruder recording of the "shoe throwing incident" you can see GW "matrix" his way out from in front of the first shoe. Bush has become a Master at ducking things like questions, responsibility, bullets, and shoes. Props were due.

Don't bother looking for it on YouTube I'm sure the Illuminati have already sanitized all those images.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 17, 200807:58 PM:

And death shall have no dominion.Dead men naked they shall be oneWith the man in the wind and the west moon;When their bones are picked clean and the clean bones gone,They shall have stars at elbow and foot;Though they go mad they shall be sane,Though they sink through the sea they shall rise againThough lovers be lost love shall not;And death shall have no dominion.

Dylan was a lyricistNot a proper bard at allThough among those lofty fellowsHe towers o'er ten feet tallYet only fools search for wisdomSpilled from his lips like lovers wineRather than listen to the musicThe lilting melody of his rhymeTi's a waste to look for pearls of wisdomThey are not meant to be there to findFor in his heart of hearts the words just kept the time...

quote:Thomas once confided that the poems which had most influenced him were Mother Goose rhymes which his parents taught him when he was a child. He did not understand all of their contents, but he loved their sounds, and the acoustic qualities of the English language became his focus in his work later. He claimed that the meanings of a poem were of "very secondary nature" to him.[

The first of course is Dylan Thomas and the poor second attempt is mine. Reading up on Thomas I came across the quote above and slightly offended due to my love of words and meaning my heart inspired my lines. Would only that they had sprung from a better mind.

If you can't embarrass yourself in front of your friends where can you embarrass yourself?

just something to note: is your judicial system really as good as people make out? life should mean life as far as people are concerned, however, the british system believes that life is about 25 years. and if you actually get to appeal for parole, you might only serve half of that. where is the justice there?

here you rape, you get 7, maybe 9 years, killing, life (25 years), killing a baby (depending on the circumstances) anything from 6 to 10 years max. where is the rational thought in this? ive never fully got it myself.

yesterday in my home city, a then 16 year old shot dead an innocent 11 year old boy in august of last year. he gets 22 years with no parole, his accomplices that rallied around to protect him get between 7 and 10 years. here the prisons are like hotels. tv's, games, good food. to me that is disgusting. and they are still talking about there being overcrowding in the prisons! does our system have it all wrong, and would we gain in adopting your kind of judicial system where they actually punish them the way these criminals should be punished?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 17, 200808:12 PM:

Scouser,

Remind me not to invite you to my next poetry reading. (And our judicial system sucks. Who says otherwise?)

KE
Posted by scouser1 (Member # 3455) on December 17, 200808:24 PM:

Hehe, that would be one hell of a trip just for a poetry reading if you did KE

I say this because of...well, mainly what ive seen on tv actually! know that isnt much to go on, but its surely has a better way to deal with criminals than what we have? know it doesnt really matter much but we could only dream of bad criminals never getting out of prison.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on December 18, 200812:25 AM:

Yeah, I've never heard anybody say we have a good judicial system. Especially considering we abandoned any serious effort at focusing on rehabilitation, and jumped straight into draconian punishments.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 18, 200812:30 AM:

And now that the penal system is being privatized we will never get rid of it. It's a cash cow.

KE
Posted by scouser1 (Member # 3455) on December 18, 200801:20 PM:

ooh, maybe not then :S

on a lighter note i'm very excited to be going to dublin for the day on the 29th. ive never been before anyway so its something to look forward to after the drama of christmas day is over Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on December 18, 200803:19 PM:

I think the Big 3 (GM, Ford, Chrysler?) are pretty much done at this point. It frustrated me over the past couple years seeing these huge SUV's coming out when it was obviously a bad long term strategy. But they pretty much made America what it is today (particularly Ford). So while I think it is most likely a waste of money, I also think that $15-30 billion is not that much to ask to give them another chance.

Not to mention how much damage will be done to the people who go from $45 an hour plus health insurance to $6.50 at McDonalds.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 22, 200812:08 AM:

I'm considering asking a woman how she feels about exercise. She seems to be someone that I'd get along with, but she's pretty fat.

I'm trying to think of the best way to get this idea over to her without burning any bridges, and I'm not sure that there's any way to do so.
Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on December 22, 200807:19 AM:

You're in trouble there, Storm. The best way to go would probably be to say that you've been considering exercising more and improving your diet. If you get something about how she's thinking the same for herself, you're in good shape.
Posted by Paladine (Member # 1932) on December 22, 200807:31 AM:

And in other news, I've just bought my first new (used) car in a few years: a Cadillac DeVille. I figured I'd buy American in order to support our foundering auto industry. Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on December 22, 200809:42 AM:

quote:Originally posted by Paladine:

You're in trouble there, Storm. The best way to go would probably be to say that you've been considering exercising more and improving your diet. If you get something about how she's thinking the same for herself, you're in good shape.

Yes, I don't think anybody has a right to date someone more physically fit than themselves. (They can try, but they shouldn't be surprised if they fail.) So just talk about going to gym yourself and see what she says.

How fat is this girl? Is she, like, 20 pounds overweight or 50 pounds?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 22, 200811:28 AM:

quote:I'm considering asking a woman how she feels about exercise. She seems to be someone that I'd get along with, but she's pretty fat.

I'm trying to think of the best way to get this idea over to her without burning any bridges, and I'm not sure that there's any way to do so.

In my view, you need to accept the fat, and decide whether you want to be with her as she is. Hoping to get her skinny is unrealistic. (The usual pattern is weight gain after entering the LTR.) If you get into a relationship on the basis that she's going to try to lose weight, she'll resent the pressure and you'll resent the failure.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 22, 200812:58 PM:

That's a thought, Paladine.

scifi, while it may be unrealistic, don't most people in a relationship put pressure on the person they're with to do or change something? I don't like that, do this. Could you please do that outside. That hairstyle would not be flattering on you. Etc. Why would she automatically resent the pressure? I like it when my friends and family help me achieve my goals.

Now, I guess we could say that it's not her goal, but that's the question, isn't it? Does she like being fat and want to stay that way or want to change? That's the thing I wish I knew.

Unless something happens that would prevent my SO from losing weight, I couldn't accept them being fat, no more than I could accept them just sitting around the house all day doing nothing and being lazy.

Oh, well. Nothing is going to come of this. It's all just idle speculation.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 22, 200801:01 PM:

Omega, more around 50....

Also, congrats on your new (used) car, Paladine. I know nothing about cars, so I don't know a thing about it.
Posted by OpsanusTau (Member # 2350) on December 22, 200803:05 PM:

Don't. Just don't.

No matter what you say, I promise it will come across as "I'd kind of like to date you, but not the way you are. The way you are right now is not actually good enough for me. Can you change the following things about yourself? If you do, I will consider you worthy."

It is possible that she is overweight and lacks motivation to work out and lose weight. In this case I seriously doubt that she will appreciate your suggestion.It's also possible that she's not actually overweight. I know several women who are in excellent physical shape but just big - I am talking women who run every day, or do significant mountain biking, or who do a variety of other cardio activities three or four times a week and are at a weight that is maybe forty pounds over what's considered "average" for the height.

Yeah Storm! How dare you judge somebody by their physical appearance! It's unheard of! What kind of person does that?

Although I don't think asking her in any way is going to work. Plus, the chances that she keeps the weight off during a ltr and growing older is "slim" .

I have been accused of being a narcissistic and a physical perfectionist (which was wrong; I was in such great physical shape so I could be a great athlete not so I would have bulging biceps. Well, that and girls seem to like them.) and for years was obsessed with the physical appearance of anyone I dated. Then the first girl I loved (voted most beautiful in our high school) broke up with me for cheating on her and her/my best girlfriend was there for me to lean on. I ended up doing a little more than lean. Though she was not near the perfection of most of the girls I had dated she was next to Stacy the girl I loved most. A great personality may be a joke but it really matters when you are choosing a mate. As do sense of humor, intelligence, sexual aptitude and appetite (and even though looks wise she wasn't a centerfold she was the best in bed ever) Only Stacy coming along kept her and I from being married today.

So, while everybody has 'criteria' by which they pick who they want to take a chance with, looks don't last, all that other stuff can.

Stacy, the love of my life has gained probably 45 pounds in the last two years and she is still beautiful to me. Her personalities have gotten huge!

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 22, 200808:31 PM:

John always says that men listen with their eyes and women look with their ears.

****whispers***

Has anyone else but me ever wondered if polygamous men used the mental images of their prettier wife/wives to help them perform with their less-attractive mates? I always thought that if they did it was nobody's business because whatever they did to help themselves to cause them to make their wives happy in bed is a good thing, no matter what mental gymnastics were involved.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 22, 200809:45 PM:

KE,

Uh, just to be clear, I'm not looking for modelesque thin, or 'thin', just someone who can jog at least mile, who values staying in shape. That's really it. I know this girl doesn't exercise because she *told* me she doesn't.

I value personality and all the rest, and have blown off plenty of women who have had crappy personalities. For reals.

Do I really need to say this stuff? Everyone has physical criteria. Everyone. Just because I mention that there is a problem with this woman's weight, it doesn't mean that I don't see the rest of her. I don't know why you would think I wouldn't.

It's great that you love your wife's personality, but please be honest, there is a limit to what her body could look like for you to still be physically attracted to her, is there not?

Or can you not be honest about that because your family reads this forum?

quote:John always says that men listen with their eyes and women look with their ears.

No offense, but John is full of crap. Women are every bit as bad as men about looks, if not worse. I guarantee you that I could be the most eloquent person in the world, but if I looked and dressed like a hobo, 99.9% of my female peers would not give me the time of day.

Men care just as much about what women say as women do about men, it's just that women hide what they mean behind piles of psychological horse**** so they satisfy the ideals of their sex.

"He doesn't value fitness."

Translation: He's fat.

"I want someone who can keep up with me."

Translation: No fatties.

"I like someone who respects themselves."

Translation: I like slim dudes.

Etc.

If I had a nickel every time I've heard or seen a woman make comments like these online, if not actually say point blank 'no fat dudes', I'd be a rich man.

So, honestly, my friend , spare me this silliness about how women look with their ears or whatev.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on December 22, 200810:07 PM:

I've known far more people who were startled to find themselves attracted to people who were not of a type they'd ever check off on an eharmony box than people who grew less attracted to someone they'd previously been deeply attracted to, due to changes in that person's appearance. We can all list attributes that in the abstract are more appealing to us than others, but what really fuels attraction includes things that are much less mutable than appearance. Stuff like the way people move, or the way they smell, the way the respond to you, etc. It's the whole package that does it, and sometimes the truly compelling stuff comes in surprising wrappings.

So, if you're not feeling it now, chances are you're not going to, period, and this isn't going to be that kind of relationship.

Plus, there really is no way to say "could you try to meet my standards so I can decide whether or not I'm interested in pursuing a relationship with you" without being an ass. Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 22, 200810:09 PM:

A point where I wouldn't be "physically" attracted to her? Heck yeah. But no point where her body or looks could make a difference in whether I loved her or not.

I'm sorry if it came off like I thought you were shallow. I was just saying that I 'was' very judgemental and gave too much priority to the physical appearance when I was younger. As you can see I even said the same thing you said about "everybody having a criteria".

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 22, 200810:14 PM:

Funean has a point. What if she works her ass off, literally, eats nothing but rabbit food for six months, loses fifty or a hundred pounds and you're like; "Huh, I thought you'd be better looking than that. Sorry. Thanks for playing."?

SS, I know that it is the "willingness" to make the effort to get in shape that you are concerned about, but it wasn't nearly as funny that way.

KE
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on December 22, 200810:23 PM:

Actually, the idea that someone would dramatically change their appearance and approach to life on the off chance that I might find them interesting enough to maybe date gives me the convulsive shudders. It's one thing if your spouse or SO of some years says, "You've really changed a lot and I'm worried about your health, too," and quite another if some acquaintance or casual friend implies he might consider dating you if you lost a few pounds. Seriously, what kind of person would say yes to that?

I'll take the fatty with the life and sense of self, please.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 22, 200810:49 PM:

John was just saying that men and women look at mates very differently on first glance.

I think you are right that women certainly do too, but they are all different kinds of standards. I'm sure you've noticed that there are a lot of pretty women married to a lot of ugly (rich, successful, brilliant or physically powerful) men. I've even heard studies that say that women judge men by the way they "move" or smell. But the point is we've got standards and they aren't the same. I'll never criticize a man for wanting a woman who has a certain look, considering that women have wanted them that make a certain salary. I've never minded that men tend to the visual mechanisms to pare down their search. It probably explains the natural spatial abilities as well. For my own part, women "reading into" verbal communication too much makes me want to hit 'em but who am I to knock this time-honored mate-findin' mechanism.

I'm kinda glad each sex has sorting mechanisms, as I find them interesting.*

*I once met a man who had, literally, five inch long palms on his hands. He was a minor-league pitcher. He said that his mother specifically wanted a baseball child and so she was looking for the right hands. This particular man was also a mean-Jew-hating-Christian-polygamist who actually sent me a note in friendship to "watch out for Edomites!" At least I think it was "edomites" I might be really be remembering that right but I was trying not to laugh/cry.

I am thinking now that TSG must have felt, to the conservatives, like Gina feels to me.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 23, 200812:31 AM:

"I once met a man who had, literally, five inch long palms on his hands."

Huh. I don't have a ruler handy, but I'd guess my palms are five inches. They aren't unusual, as far as I know.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 23, 200812:59 AM:

So, she just wrote me back after I told her that, romantically speaking, I needed someone who valued exercise, and she agreed that we could have a platonic online relationship, which makes me very happy, because I do actually want to be her friend.

munga,

I think that a lot of that may have to do with economic conditions and social parameters for women for the last few thousand years and the double standard than it is anything that is ingrained into the sexes. For instance, pre-nups are a lot more acceptable to women than they used to be.

OK, munga, he said watch out for Edomites?? ROFL!! Wow, that is too funny.

Call me shallow if you want but, when I was still single, I was looking for a woman who was fit with a great body. What I got was my wife, who didn't fit that. Instead she fit what I was really looking for but didn't realize it. She doesn't value exercise like I do (only reason I do is because if I wasn't fit, I'd be looking for a new job) but I still love her and always will. For me, it doesn't matter what she looks like, it's more about the connection we have. We started out as friends and it grew from there. A person would be amazed at their choices for a "mate" if he or she just trusts their heart to make the right connection.

Wow, I sound like a sap! LOL
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on December 23, 200811:12 AM:

I think it is now time to completely derail this thread into a discussion of palm sizes.

My palms are 4" long, measured from the heel of my hand to the base of my middle finger. I consider myself to somewhat above average hands in general, though that's more from my fingers than my palm. (I can play an octave+2 notes on the piano. I can reach an octave+3.)

Seems like 5" palms would be pretty darn big, but not absurdly so. But, when it comes to playing baseball, I wouldn't imagine that palm size matters as much as overall hand size. What's the advantage in having a big palm over having longer fingers?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 23, 200811:23 AM:

After throwing a softball for so many years throwing a baseball feels like throwing a marble and my hands are average at best. Maybe a little smaller. But you know what they say; small hands...(I've been trying to turn that damn saying around for years. No luck.)

And you don't throw with your palms at all, except for "change-ups". Any other time you want as little of your hand touching the ball as possible. Finger tips. So like Clark said; long fingers would be more valuable.

That is a good article. I wish I'd read it when I was six. (Before ripping my shoulder up pretty good trying to throw over hard with just my arm.)

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 23, 200804:02 PM:

Ok, so I eye-balled the palms, I didn't measure, but let me tell you, they looked like gorilla-hands, they must have been longer than I was thinking (maybe my brain was just shrinking from calling them six or seven inches) and it was very hard to maintain a conversation with him because my eye kept catching on them.

YES, I am almost sure he said "edomites" and I have NO idea what, exactly, he was talking about, except that he believed that Jews were not really Jews, but were fake-Jews and so, because they were impersonating Jews, they were going to "get it."

Speaking of "standards" .....I did have one, that was so obvious to me that I threw it out in the open and told John about it up front. I said, I didn't want to date any guys that I could beat up, myself.

What I meant is, I'm such an amazon- I'm just a little under six feet in shoes and I have very broad, kinda powerful shoulders (thanks, dad) that frankly I got sick of the

"Hi, I'm M(unga)" "Nice to meet you, M(unga), do you play basketball???"

dynamic because that line of thought was so f'in stupid to my point of view (why do I look like someone who would enjoy chasing a ball up and down a court for zero net change in life's real issues??) and all reference to my stature (which every stranger-made-new-acquaintence or just plain total strangers commented upon, if they said anything at all) made me just about bonkers.

Then, behind that thought, was the wish that no matter who was conducting the robbery, I didn't want people looking at me to clock the bad-guy, I wanted people looking at my _______ next to me, the guy who was much bigger and stronger than I am. I might actually need it a lot less (people don't attack an amazon often) but I really don't have any happiness in contemplating anything violent, from myself.

So, first thing John did when he picked me up for our first date at my my apartment was ask my roommates if they were ready for a short play, and then ask me if I was 'ready' and then, he pinned me to the floor in about 3 seconds. He said, "do you say Uncle?" and I said, "Alright, Uncle you lunatic" and he said, "Great. I was just qualifying myself as someone you could date!" and then I got the joke, and we went out and had a great time.

He's 6'4", 250 pounds part-Samoan teddybear, and our three sons are prolly gonna be scary-looking but great guys. I am glad our daughter takes after his side of the family- she's 13 so she's not done growing, but I think she's going to be 5'6" or 5'7" and have nothing like my natural build (which nobody thought was natural back in my twenties- na ja- so I'm glad to get a little older and less...whatever I am).

note- that is John's dad's side of the family, that is slight and short. John's mother's side of the family produced the sweethearted hulk I married.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 23, 200805:35 PM:

quote: I got sick of the

"Hi, I'm M(unga)""Nice to meet you, M(unga), do you play basketball???"

dynamic because that line of thought was so f'in stupid to my point of view (why do I look like someone who would enjoy chasing a ball up and down a court for zero net change in life's real issues??) and all reference to my stature (which every stranger-made-new-acquaintence or just plain total strangers commented upon, if they said anything at all) made me just about bonkers.

People generally could be better at channeling their impulses to say something when they notice someone's unusual features. However, I trust you realize "do you play basketball" is at least a step up from "look, look, giant lady!"

I think a few people think they just HAVE to say something about the other's appearance, as if it's the key to unlock further interaction. Whether they can muster a compliment or not. I say this because of all the times I've noticed inane comments about haircuts, facial hair, etc. Yes, my shirt is very green. No, that is not a new hairstyle. Now can we have our business meeting? Or would you like to point out that I appear to have ordinary amounts of arm hair? Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 23, 200805:39 PM:

Ha. It sometimes seems to me that women are torn between finding a way to visually stand out in a crowd, but doing so in such a way that they don't feel self-conscious. I've heard many women be very self-conscious about their physical characteristics that cause them to stand out. I sometimes wonder if many western women wouldn't secretly relish something like the burqa that allows them to step out of the house in complete anonymity, without having to worry about what people think of them....

I really enjoy your honesty with yourself, and your general lack of anger towards others on this board, munga. Talking with you is very easy for me.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 23, 200806:30 PM:

scifi-

I eventually got over it, but it was a source of irritation that the opening line never, ever, ever varied. I wasn't one of those folks who was trying to stick out for appearances (no mo-hawk, no flashy clothes) so I suppose I was wishing that someone, sometime, could have put a little more thought into it.

But what it really made me mad at to be honest was physical stereotyping. I have never had much interest in sports, period. The sports that are interactive are healthy for you, but they are a waste time in that you talk to other people about an actually non-existent goal (putting a ball here or there temporarily) and so you've wasted time that you could have used more productively with everyone, doing something useless instead. Basketball is exactly such a sport. Then, there are the sports that do not involve talking to other people, like hiking, swimming or weight-lifting in which I do find some physical solace, when I can. But the whole "body is destiny" thing just drove me nuts. It wasn't just an opening line, because if I admitted to playing basketball some (we had a hoop at home and I enjoyed one-on-one with big brothers and a dad who loved playing a bit with family, and I played in fifth and sixth grades before people got all obsessed about my height/build) they wanted to continue talking about it!

Over time, it seemed that they were thinking that as a person who could play it, I was that limited in my reasoning and effectiveness as to have no other worthy thing but ball-handling in my thoughts. Did I look/sound stupid, or what? It felt a little insulted because I always put forth a good effort in meeting people, to show that I cared and was wanting to learn about them and what was important to them and what they were going to work on.... and they thought that I only wanted to follow an orange ball around? I know others do it, but I'm unsure that anyone does it primarily -- as in that they think and work on it --- unless they are paid. Does one talk to a boxer about the ring, or about life? Does a person talk to a banker about deposits and cash-flows, or about life? Does one talk to a scientist about his microscope or about life? Unless you are a co-worker or a student or a teacher of any of those trades, diving into the minutia is weird; but people actually wanted to talk to me about basketball and never asked me what I was thinking/analyzing/preparing/participating in beyond the silly basketball!

So, of course, I couldn't win either way. Either I admitted to playing some and we talked about basketball, or I didn't, and we talked about basketball. If I said, "No, I don't have any interest in sports" they talked about basketball (or, I have to be honest, track).

I had many many other interests but women tended to steer around me if they were with men, and the men just talked about basketball and if I reached out and said, "I don't get too excited about sports, but I love to sing" then the lady might say, "Do you wish to sing professionally?" and I might say, "Not really, there are so many who are so good, a professional singing career probably isn't in the cards, but I really enjoy it and especially enjoy singing to those who are going through some hardship or trouble and need the connectedness and expression of care, so it is a talent that brings me a lot of satisfaction" .... then neither of them would know what to say because the conversation would be, to their side, surreally different than expected. (this was an actual memory)

On the plus side, I know that my dramatic body and inviting smile did bring in a lot more adult interaction than others my age were getting. Most teens were not addressed at all by adults, but adults regularly walked up to shake my hand and make conversation. I will say, it wasn't just my height. My height just seemed to be what people honed in on, to explain the attraction to themselves. I remember standing with a group from church at some function and some ladies came up to our group and one said, "Pardon me, we've been watching you girls and we couldn't help but come and ask you a question. We were talking about your dramatic coloring, and trying to guess what your lineage is and wondered if you'd like to share it. What are you?" I smiled because she didn't mention height or basketball or build. "I'm primarily Irish and Scandinavian, which explains my skin, but the dark eyes and hair are probably from a distant American Indian and we figured I somehow got all those genes saved up for me." And they all enjoyed that. It was one of the few conversations in which people talked about my body (which was for some reason the opening salvo of all these conversations) and not about the Profession Munga Must Have- basketball.

I know some other tall girls and the experience has not been totally the same. Some never had any such conversations and to me, I could see why--- some of them just looked uncoordinated, though tall. Now that I think about it, maybe I wasn't pretty enough to be approached to be a model? No idea, but I apparently I consistently screamed BASKETBALL to everyone.

SS- I happen to pretty much like everyone, and think that honesty is the foundation of happiness (think- no one can have a long-lasting relationship on a lie) and the fact is that most of our wants and needs aren't anything to be ashamed of. Most of the time, if people will say what they want or need, those who love them and those who might enter into a relationship, will try to answer it. A long time ago we had a short happiness-in-sex thread and my take on it was that women cause a lot of unhappiness by being dishonest about what they want and need (I need the dishes done, or I need that house cleaned, but sulking about what wasn't done because the man didn't pick up on it right) and so, she punishes him with no affection. Talk about screwed up. It's like a comedy- how to enjoy contagious misery. Every Day People, if we will just communicate, like understanding so that they can bring those we love happiness/fulfillment/relief from worry/or the "expression" that means love and help to our particular psyche.

quote:Most of the time, if people will say what they want or need, those who love them and those who might enter into a relationship, will try to answer it.

That is exactly the way I feel about it. And if someone says no, that's not going to happen,then fine. Now both of you know where the other stands.

edit: And, of course, there's no reason to be cruelly honest. We should always strive to frame what we say with an eye to not hurting who we are talking to.

That said, I do think lying every now and then for the greater good is important, too. For instance, you don't need to vocalize to your mate your lust for every member of the opposite sex that strikes your fancy.

"That said, I do think lying every now and then for the greater good is important, too. For instance, you don't need to vocalize to your mate your lust for every member of the opposite sex that strikes your fancy."

However, some women* (including my wife, occasionally) seem to enjoy creating the Do You Think She's Sexy dilemma: either you say yes, and she gets insecure about it, or you lie and say no, and feel stupid about the lie since she probably sees through it anyway.

I have zero problem with women asking the question out of honest curiosity as long as they are prepared to hear the truth, and not punish for it. But asking to be lied to is just extremely irritating.

So I tell my wife the truth and she can either stop asking me those questions or choose to be secure in the fact that she's the one I actually try to have sex with.

It helps that I'm really secure. I KNOW my husband adores me, and so I find his stray thoughts about passing women interesting. He used to look a little worried that I had monitored his change of expression, but then, he'd give me the truth (example: "I was thinking she had a nice butt") which I found hiiilaaarioouus. Eventually, he realized that his honest thoughts are very interesting and even a source of happy entertainment to me; I like understanding his way of computing the world and evaluating information and prioritizing importantance, and it doesn't affect my regard AND it doesn't send me for a self-doubt loop (women do this, I know women do it, and it's a topic that I can't ever get all into because it seems to be a matter of choice to me, and if they choose it, what is their grounds for blaming others for their self-doubt loop adventures?). Think how much more there is to tease him on, when he provides fodder like that. He offers it up because he knows I'll find it funny, and that makes him happy. When is teasing wonderful? When it isn't intended to hurt. And truth to tell, I'm kinda clever so we both enjoy it.

If anything, the honesty helps because we'll have more ideas to imagine and this means more directions to go. He's very good at logic trains and action trees.

I know, KE. But once you've done it once, and once you've established a bond (why not bond more quickly, over coffee?) why do basketball again...ever?

I'm glad people have fun at it. I don't know why people have fun at it, but I'm glad they do. That said, there are the weirdo nutsos in the world who, being tall and slender and athletic-looking, still don't appreciate the team sports, and so, maybe other conversation should be attempted or at least perhaps people might want to listen instead and expand upon the individual's desired base of interests rather than impose their own upon another based on what they'd do with that body.

We all have ideas, I know I know. But brain transplants will not be in the near future, so maybe reach for the closer stars of progress?

However, I have known quite a few "tall" people who feel exactly as you do about basketball and "how's the weather up there?" I just think people are unimaginative and in some cases envy. I know when I meet a slender 6'6" man I wish that I was that tall so I could play pro basketball. (I had the skills but not the height. But when it comes to tall women basketball is the last thing that goes through my mind when I think what I would do with that body. ) But mostly it's a lazy unimaginative conversation starter, or attempt thereof.

Still, I'm sad that it has soured you toward a great athletic sport with many many benefits. It's not basketball nor those of us who enjoy its many benefits fault that people are social clods.

I have a special place in my heart for basketball because after the warehouse door cut my leg off at 18 two and a half years of ten hours a day basketball gave me my leg and my athletic life back. It allowed me to run and play with my children and friends and play softball well enough to get paid to do it and flown all over North America for free.

And going to the basketball gym back then was like going to "Cheers" (Where everybody knows your name and they're always glad you came.) except healthy with none of the negative consequences of hanging out at a bar ten hours a day.

A lot of those guys from twenty years ago are still my friends and we are always glad to run into each other. Which has happened quite a few times recently at the poker rooms.

I even encourage my sons toward basketball as opposed to football. My husband has got 60 year-old joints thanks to football, so I hope they take up the less-dangerous sport, if sport they wish. Interestingly, Alex my 15 year old enjoys weight-lifting most, but he seems to have a natural aptitude for physical things, he can just guess a distance and a strength and pretty much get it right, faster than others. So, who knows what he'll want to do?

I'm glad basketball has been good for you.

By the way, we haven't heard much about Galveston recently. Want to fill us in on the recovery? I've been worried that the economic crash might also mean "no insurance payouts = no recovery" for that town.

quote:But once you've done it once, and once you've established a bond (why not bond more quickly, over coffee?) why do basketball again...ever?

Personally I'd rather move than do anything else. I'd rather do my bonding over something physical than sit on my bum and stare at another person. I'd rather have the lively intellectual conversation or the friendly family catch-up talk during an 8-mile run, or on the sidelines of a soccer game, or while kayaking on the ocean.

But then some of just have ADD, and need a lot of exercise (that or Ritalin, but Ritalin I am not allowed). Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on December 24, 200812:11 PM:

"But once you've done it once, and once you've established a bond (why not bond more quickly, over coffee?) why do basketball again...ever? I'm glad people have fun at it. I don't know why people have fun at it, but I'm glad they do."

This can be said about anything. Once you've bonded with someone over coffee, why would you ever do that again?

I've played basketball with friends for thousands of hours of my life, probably. And I've enjoyed most of it. I wonder if one thing that Munga is missing (not being a basketball player herself) is the fact that every basketball game is different. One or two people are likely to be different from game to game, even if you're playing with the same general group of people. Teams are different, matchups are different, defenses are different. Each game, someone is playing well, and someone is playing poorly. If you're teenagers, someone is likely to be an inch taller than last time you played. To ask "why would you ever do it again?" is like questioning why you got out of bed today, after all, you got out of bed yesterday, so you've done it all before!

From a bonding perspective, the common (and always new) experiences from the game give friends more memories in common, more to reflect on, and more to discuss. I'll bet KE can get together with old friends and remember softball games where he either struck out 4 times, or hit multiple home runs, or turned a specific double play, or got hit in the gut by a ground ball that took a funny hop. It'd be no fun to get together to have coffee and talk about . . . what? The time you had coffee last week?

(KE, I'm sure only the good scenarios ever happened to you, and it was the other guys who did all the striking out and getting eaten up by ground balls.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 24, 200812:34 PM:

Holy cow, do I miss playing basketball. I didn't make the high school team but I played in city leagues and had a Mon-Wed-Fri morning arrangement with some guys from church. Basketball is one of the things I miss about church. (Though the competitive church games, as opposed to the morning just for fun games, were horrible...grown men throwing childish tantrums constantly. I was one of them so it's painful to remember.)

munga, you're probably sick of people trying to explain it already, but I can't help myself. Basketball and other team sports offer some of the same things this forum offers. Friendly association mixed with the challenge of testing your skills against a changing group of opponents. You might be too individualistic for team sports, maybe. There's also, of course, a visceral thrill of inhabiting a trained body and using it to do something that requires strength and skill. There's nothing like the feeling of making a play under pressure. (It's neatly balanced by the wrenching disappointment of failure. The key to having fun is to make sure you get some of both. It's not fun to win when it's not a challenge, and that means you have to accept losing sometimes too.)

It's essentially a form of entertainment, but it does help build relationships and we all need some exercise anyway.

I think that church group consists of mostly different people by now but is still playing three times a week. Maybe I should start getting up at 5 so I can join them. If they resent the extra, out of shape obstacle on the court I can explain that I helped start that basketball group, when they were learning to dribble! LOL. I'll have to explain that before I'm reduced to a purple wheezing cripple by a few fast breaks.
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on December 24, 200802:55 PM:

I don't get it. This year my company gave me Columbus Day off. Yet I'm working Christmas Eve. Why!?!?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 24, 200803:02 PM:

Worry when you get Columbus Eve off.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 24, 200803:32 PM:

Yes, Clark and Scifi, I know why basketball is fun for so many. Every circumstance is different, but I have to view it in the over scheme of what (new) is achieved in every game VS time expended?

I have trouble with such sports for the same reason I have trouble with crosswords. They are designed to achieve a goal that doesn't mean enough in an hour. If we believe that we have the time to spend, great, but shall we do that often, when so many around us are in need? Do we really feel that we have time to burn when others will not be cared for? Yes, I enjoy my holidays and yes I enjoy my time off, but I know that I put in a hell of a week (and am available for hours after and before the normal workday) to resolve issues that will make positive changes in the communities of the world, but most of the time I worry that I didn't get enough done. Throwing it away in basketball means to me, that we are making an appointment with many others who will likewise also not accomplish enough (and thus we will derail ..... what?) simply by setting an appointment to not be doing something useful. Individual sports, on the other hand can be grabbed when I have done enough in a day or prior to a major morning meeting, and they do not encourage others to "quit early" just to meet together, for a time of enjoyment. Individual enjoyment times like Ornery moments are also posted between activities, so I don't disturb anyone else's productive period. This is the reason I have screening systems on my phone and require name and business because if I am distracted, things can fall.

My job is enough like a gladiator sport that I do get that "thrill" it just comes in forms that look different. My home is wonderful enough that I get the thrill of doing things with people I love. I guess... I'm really self-contained, in that like a terrarium I tend to have what I need to function and I hope contribute meaningfully.

I'm crazy, and I know I am. John loves sports and in particular I encourage him to do this with the young men in the ward, who need older men to mold their characters upon. And if John's playing I might come along to cheer, because after the game he'll surely need help (he adheres to the "sacrifice the body" ideal) and of course, I love watchin' his sexy bod.

Clark, SPORTS & REMINISSING One time I got thirteen stitches in my chin from a ball that took a 'hilarious' hop. Another time I got hit by a line drive standing on third base broke three ribs and I spit up blood the rest of the tourney, which we won. And though I've had multiple multiple home run games the best was a three run game at the National Championship Game in Lawton, OK. The third one I hit tied it up in the bottom of the last inning with two outs. I swear to...y'all. Hard to strike out in slow pitch, we were pros and not allowed to drink, but I did swing and miss "once". The Sun was in my eyes! (By the way; excellent post about sports in general. I very much enjoyed it. Stacy made some of the same points about Munga when I told her about it. Not mean just "different strokes etc.")

Galveston: I think UTMB University of Texas Medical Branch which is a huge hospital complex, school, and research center is "laying off" a bunch of people. But I don't think it is shutting down completely. God I hope not. Still, the numbers they were discussing were a big blow to Galveston and the surrounding areas.

GUESS WHERE I SPENT MY MONRNING?

A) Last minute shopping?

B) Working like I was supposed to?

C) Driving a hundred and fifty miles South East to pick up my dad who had gotten so ****ed up on prescription pills that he forgot what day it was left work early missed the turn off for home(he works maybe fifteen miles from home) and just kept going until being pulled over by a Sheriff's Deputy in "Edna, Texas" (Just outside Victoria, Texas) for DRIVING THE WRONG WAY ON HWY 59, a major freeway, in the middle of the night wasted out of his mind on Somas, muscle relaxers? (He missed home by a HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILES!!!!)

And guess what they did to him? The took his keys and checked him in to a Best Western! Told him if someone in his family would come get him he could leave in the morning. I got the call from the Deputy at 3am.

Give up? A) of course. NO! (C) if you can believe it. When I got there and asked the Best Western clerk where the Sheriff's Department was so I could go get dad's keys she said she had been lying to my dad and the Deputy had left the keys with her. So it was up to me whether he was able to drive home or not!

Yeah, cops get treated the same as average citizens. And he's been retired for fifteen years!

I have to call his doctor and tell him to stop giving him all these drugs 150 Somas 90 Vicodin at a time before he kill himself and some innocent person/family or just the family and spends the rest of his life in jail. He will of course hate me for it but I don't know if I can live with myself if any of the above scenarios happen and I have been doing nothing but enabling him.

I talked to my mom on the way down there, she divorced him 20 years ago for this ****, and she said that 20 years ago she was suffering the same dilemma of whether to turn him in and have him hate you or risk him killing someone on the road or with his police gun. (Once he kicked in an innocent families door and held them at gunpoint until the police arrived.) This was right after I got out of jail for putting the Pasadena cops in the hospital but one of the cops called me and said that if I could come get him and take him away they wouldn't take him in. The Sergeant in charge was a good friend of my dads. When I got there there were forty Pasadena cops there all of whom were not very happy with me at the time. Fortunately dad was so ****ed up I tricked him into my truck telling him I was taking him to his mothers house, took him to my house threw him in my bedroom and when he tried to leave I knocked him unconscious. Then I tied a rope to the bedroom door and my ankle and slept on the couch so he couldn't leave. He woke up in the morning sorry as can be. He's always sorry as can be.

I video taped that time because he never remembers the horrible things he does and says (Like he told the cops I was trying to kill him etc. and he said to me I was a horrible son, a traitor, and not a Myers. Those were the nice things.) But of course he has ever since refused to watch the tape.

That was 18 years ago, and this morning.

I don't know what to do. I'm all he has. (He was the best dad in the world from 1-6 and with a few huge exceptional nights from 6-11.) My sister, one year younger than me has refused to talk to him for almost twenty years as has my mom unless it involves their grandchildren.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention that I think is very important is SPORTS for the most part break down barriers. Be they racial, social, or whatever. If a guy can hit a three with time running down, or get a hit with two outs most of us athletes don't care if he is a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater, much less a different skin color or social status.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 24, 200804:02 PM:

so, your dad was a cop? Is that what I'm missing, in trying to calculate why he gets unlimited grace?

And, that all sounds uncomfortable and difficult- personal mis-management means that others are put in the position, whether they like it or not, of responsibility... or allowing consequences no one wants.

Tough calls, KE, you have my sympathy. Everyone in my family who was a drunk/addict was also, fortunately, destitute by their own hand and thus without the means to commit vehicular manslaughter.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 24, 200804:03 PM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Oh, one thing I forgot to mention that I think is very important is SPORTS for the most part break down barriers. Be they racial, social, or whatever. If a guy can hit a three with time running down, or get a hit with two outs most of us athletes don't care if he is a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater, much less a different skin color or social status.

KE

true. For that, I do thank organized sports. It accomplished as much as the 1964 Civil Rights Act. We've got more to go, but Sports have made a huge, valuable contribution.

Wow, I'm glad your dad wasn't taken to jail or anything, but that whole once a cop thing you're always a cop thing....

I wish everyone got the same courtesy.

I was probably mistaken about the hospital closing down and just laying off a bunch of people. Thanks for the correction.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on December 24, 200806:46 PM:

I would hesitantly guess that your dad needs to experience more appropriate consequences of his actions in order to have any hope of getting straight. I don't think his doctor can fix it and I don't think you can either. It might be that going to jail for intoxicated and reckless driving, and losing his drivers license, would have been the best thing. Posted by Michelle (Member # 3237) on December 25, 200806:48 PM:

Question: If a minor is questioned and assessed while intoxicated are the statements valid? I would think that questions about whether they are self-medicating or how they feel about the world in general should be moot while impaired. Is there a name or 'rule of thumb' for this dilemma.
Posted by Quinnalus (Member # 6374) on December 25, 200807:01 PM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder:However, I have known quite a few "tall" people who feel exactly as you do about basketball and "how's the weather up there?" I just think people are unimaginative and in some cases envy.

I had a Great Uncle that was 6'7" tall and would answer this query by spitting on the persons shoes and telling the person that it was raining.

I myself am 6'5" but I wear a size 10 shoe which makes it impossible to do anything in a coordinated manner... much less run up and down a court.
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on December 25, 200809:21 PM:

I think that's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that they were uncoordinated because their feet were too small. Normally the claims seem to be the other way around.
Posted by philnotfil (Member # 1881) on December 25, 200810:02 PM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Oh, one thing I forgot to mention that I think is very important is SPORTS for the most part break down barriers. Be they racial, social, or whatever. If a guy can hit a three with time running down, or get a hit with two outs most of us athletes don't care if he is a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater, much less a different skin color or social status.

KE

Yes.

I find it amusing that so many people were talking about the social side of sports. I would switch up parks when people started including me in their conversations and inviting me to come chill with them. I'm not so good at all of the social stuff, and I just wanted to play basketball. It was easier to find a new group of people to play with than to figure out the social side of things.

I'd guess feet too small for the frame make balance a problem. No balance, no coordination. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Quinn.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 26, 200803:11 PM:

Ballerinas seem to do pretty well just on their tippy-toes?

My best friend "Spretzo" used to say he was so slow because his toes were so long and it took for ever for him to get over them. I used to tell him it looked like the ground was sucking at his feet when he ran. Of course being white and weighing 250 with zero body fat probably had something to do with it.

I bet most of you would be surprised at how far apart the steps of a fast runner are. It's almost like you are jumping or springing forward as much as "running". And the hardest part of running real fast is getting back to the ground so you can push off again.

"I bet most of you would be surprised at how far apart the steps of a fast runner are. It's almost like you are jumping or springing forward as much as "running"."

Sprinters tend to "under-stride," especially taller ones. How fast you can run is basically a combination of turnover, and stride-length... but for almost all sprinters, turnover can't keep up with stride length, so they shorten the stride length, typically down to about 2.3 meters or so for a world class athlete.

One of the reason olympic sprinters are so bulky through the torso is that the muscles that limit turnover are the shoulder and chest muscles. Think about how you run... one arm back, opposite leg forward. So if the pumping of your arms can't keep up with the rhythm of your stride, your body will either tip over, or adjust so that the two are in sync.

With an increase in shoulder and torso strength, you can pump your arms faster. Doing this means a faster turnover, therefore more speed.

If you can get your torso strong enough, you can increase the stride length past 2.3 meters, and maintain optimum balance between turnover and stride length. Its uncommon, but possible... and why Usain Bolt is an absolute freak of nature. His stride pushes 2.6 meters I think. Michael Johnson developed a style of running that allowed him to run at longer stride lengths, and its why you see more fully upright sprinters then you did in the 80's.

I ran the 200m in high school in 81 strides. Basically 2.5 meters. The first time I ran at 89, I beat my personal best by 6 tenths of a second. At that short a distance, thats an insane drop.

My brothers who are 6'6" and 6'7" have made the comments that all the conversation that starts with admiration of their height because if (person) had had such height they always hoped to ______. What my brothers say is that when they were shorter (note- the Jensen side of the family- the taaaaaaaaaaall side- matures relatively late. I didn't need a bra until 8th or 9th grade, much later than every other girl in school who wore them starting 6th or 7th grade at the very latest.) they were far more nimble.

For my brothers, the Jensen growth pattern meant that they had to go through some of high school being short and they only began to grow in late-high school. Their report is that during their 5'10" to 6'3" periods they were far more nimble because they were more compact. As they grew taller, which happened out of high school on their missions (both are now jack-Mormons, for those with any interest- one brother believes that alcohol is God's gift to man, and the other believes that money is nothing to God, so don't give any away to a church) they were obviously expected* by their companions to play basketball with the church men/investigators/young men/other missionaries on their "P-Day" (= "preparation day") once a week, so they did monitor their own ability somewhat.

Their analysis is that increased height detracts significantly from nimbleness. I will say, however, that my husband, John, mentioned that as a football and track star at Duluth he and his team had been expected to take Ballet. Which John did. He was also able to "kick" in football, so he already had a lot of "ballet-muscles" ready to go, but he said his team had a lot of trouble to start and that ballet as a whole did them a lot of good. He can still do the positions for me. That said, John is at 6'4" which my brothers thought was the top-peak height of real-nimblability.

*Note: Jensens were kinda expected to play not just because of the height, my brothers had an even more pronounced build and physical profile such that when my oldest brother was fitted for his tuxedo to get married the tailor who was started from a basic suit to be adjusted ------ all our clothes have to be adjusted----- stated "Because of your waist and your shoulders, I'm sorry to tell you that people don't come in your size, and we'll have to charge a small premium here in order to build the suit from scratch. You are actually shaped like a T." But the expectation was not a hardship for my brothers. They both liked to play back then, and my oldest brother played sports with the church men long after he stopped going to church.

Yes you try to as you say "understride" so you can get back to the ground and push off again, but you still travel a lot further than most people would assume. That's why you can tell if a person was running or walking when tracking them by the length of their strides. Walking strides are much shorter.

I used to work out with a wider-receiver for the Houston Oilers, Wade Hopkins, the fastes guy on the team, and he is the one that showed me exactly how far I was striding. Short staccato strides are not optimum running style.

I ran a 4.43 40 in college football. And that was after the two pins were put in my leg.

I haven't noticed the "more upright running style" but my initial reaction is that it is wrong. (I'm willing to be convinced but I just don't see how that can be advantageous?) But I'm old and a slight lean forward was the way I was taught. And since running fast was my greatest skill I was a student of running. I think steroids/HGH etc. might have as much to do with being able to run leaning backwards as "new styles" of sprinting. I do agree with the faster arm pumps making your stride faster but that is pretty common knowledge.

" haven't noticed the "more upright running style" but my initial reaction is that it is wrong. "

Look at video of Michael Johnson, and compare the angle of his torso to the ground with the people he was competing against. It altered his whole style of running, and so his form is radically different then what was considered ideal.

His style allowed him to lengthen his stride out, and maintain the same turnover. I tried it out a few times, and probably would have stuck with it had I continued competitive track, as it definetely increased my stride length with no sacrifice of turnover rates.

But his style has by no means become the norm.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 26, 200804:14 PM:

I can picture him running in my head and I see what you mean, but I don't think I could do it. The cliche "Old dog new tricks" applies in my case.

And I didn't realize it was a conscious choice on Johnson's part. I thought it was just a quirk of his style. Though I should have realized at that level nothing is done that isn't analyzed nine ways to Sunday and molded for optimum effiecency and performance.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on December 26, 200810:29 PM:

And all this talk of big guys and ballet brings me to perhaps my favorite sport memory of all time:

I was a Psych TA, a Teaching Assistant, at BYU to the sports guys. These boys were expected to be practicing in the same time that the regular guys and girls were allowed to study and so were given lots of help to make their grades. LOTS of help and "given" being important words, but let's go not there, too much.

So, I'm trying to track down my latest new tutoree and who is on the football team at the BYU fieldhouse but I understand that much of the entire team has been put into an aerobics class nearby.

I walk the halls until I find the music and there, in front, was a little tiny girl -- not five feet tall or a hundred pounds-- kicking her legs to aerobics music and the entire team, lumbering across from her. She's doing a grapevine and calling out the steps in a high, clear voice and the men are booming and stomping across from her and the scene just takes me.

I start to grin, which the men (but not the girl, whom I am standing behind) see, and they start to blush. I am there, watching the entire football lineup- all easily above 300 pounds- doing the kick-ball-chain and turning beat red and then I fall out of the doorway, I'm laughing so hard.

quote:I'd guess feet too small for the frame make balance a problem. No balance, no coordination. Please correct me if I'm wrong,

Thanks Ricky... you are exactly correct... The only use I ever got out of my height was A 6' Wing span made me pretty good at 1st base (didn't have to run much)
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 28, 200802:15 AM:

quote:"Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same." Oscar Wilde.

Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on December 28, 200802:49 AM:

I lol'd.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on December 28, 200802:52 AM:

We saw "Dark Knight" when it came out at the theatre but we also got each of my boys their own copy, or Santa left it in their stockings.

Then last night the boys and I watched it together again. Man that is a great movie. (Bale is to Batman what Brosnan is to OO7, perfect)

It is a damn shame that Heath Ledger saved his break-out roll for his last. He stole the show. Far better than Jack in his turn as the Joker, and Jack was very good (as usual).

Just and incredible movie. In case you couldn't tell; I HIGHLY RECOMEND IT.

SPOILER******************Valkyrie***************

"Valkyrie" Tom Was great. It gives you a clearer understanding that not all, or even most of the German people were Nazi's, but I've seen the events that took place ten different times in ten different ways in documentaries, movies, and books. Even if the assassination plot wasn't the central theme I still knew enough that there were no surprises.

If you haven't seen it, or no anything about it, it is definitely worth watching.

quote:"Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same." Oscar Wilde.

LOL!!!

You actually reminded me about a guy I haven't thought about in a long, long time. He was a Supply guy in the Navy on the same ship I was on at the time. His favorite saying was: "Two's company, three's a logistical nightmare."
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 02, 200903:05 AM:

I saw Shaq at the Minneapolis airport. Big dude.

I went on a date to the movie "Australia" tonight, and can honestly say I did not understand the underlying message in the slightest. Anybody want to help enlighten me?
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on January 02, 200910:25 AM:

Underlying message: Too much Botox will **** you up, even if you're Nicole Kidman.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 02, 200902:06 PM:

I wonder how Shaq fits into the airline seats.

I thought the message of "Australia" was "If it's far away and you include lots of aerial shots and swelling music in the trailer, you can get away with naming a movie for the country where it takes place."

("Dancing with Wolves" was one criterion away from being called "America.")
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on January 02, 200902:27 PM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder:

However, I have known quite a few "tall" people who feel exactly as you do about basketball and "how's the weather up there?"

If I said this or some other height comment to a girl, it would be to hit on her. (Note: I don't do this anymore because I know it's a tired line.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 02, 200902:37 PM:

Sort of a random question.

How much do you suppose it would cost to rent a high school commons for several hours and host a gathering of roughly 100 people, and serve them pasta and breadsticks and lemonade? I don't know how much national recognition it has but Fazoli's did the catering in this case, and served spaghetti with marinara and baked ziti with the breadsticks. And, I think, green salad.

This was my 10 year high school reunion and it has been bothering me that it cost $20/plate to attend. I imagine the facility was either free or at least no more than $200. There was 'entertainment' which might have cost $200-300. Which leaves about $16/plate for catering with food that would cost maybe $8/person if you just went to Fazoli's for dinner.

Is that normal? (I have never hired a caterer so I don't know the normal costs.)

I have a nagging suspicion that some of the money just got pocketed.

It's really silly that this bugs me because it was not a lot of money out of my pocket. I don't apologize for being disappointed with the evening - I'll tell you about the 'entertainment' - but maybe I'm being goofy for complaining about the cost. Maybe that's just what it costs.

OK I checked and found a quote for $6/person catering from Fazoli's for the menu we ate. Sounds more like it. So I'm almost certain there was an excess of cash. Wonder if I helped fly someone in from another part of the country, or something?

I'm so petty sometimes.

OK, so the 'entertainment' consisted of a pretend homeless person who zoomed around the gathering in her wheelchair. She was obviously far too old to be part of our class and wasn't a recognizable part of the faculty. She just tooled around in her wheelchair for a while. For my part I noticed her but ignored her. I wasn't in charge of the event, she didn't seem to be bothering anyone, and also didn't obviously need anything. I talked with my wife and the people at our table, ate my food, and ignored the wheelchair lady.

After most of us had finished eating, the wheelchair lady wheeled up to the microphone and began addressing us. She slowly removed her disguise and revealed herself not to be a homeless lady. She admonished us for not welcoming her and treating her with kindness. It was an object lesson in human decency, get it? She had some backstory about a hard life. During her speech she stopped several times to further admonish tables who weren't paying enough respectful attention to her. (I don't blame them, they were trying to salvage some fun from the situation.)

So yeah, I paid $40 for my wife and I to eat $12 of food and get a professional guilt trip. I mean, I knew it was a staid bunch - I didn't expect a cash bar or anything - but I didn't expect the full on devotional experience. I don't think I'd be planning on attending the 20 year reunion even if I didn't suspect somebody skimmed some money. LOL.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 02, 200902:48 PM:

Yeah. Australia had a pinch of "treating blacks like dogs is not good", and a bit of love stuff. But the Wizard of Oz stuff? The skinny witch doctor guy? There was a bunch of random ****ing symbolism in it. There were dozens and dozens of shots of random objects throughout the movie that were obviously supposed to symbolize something. I took IB English through high school and we had to focus on that stuff all the time, but there was waay too much in this movie.

Is it a scientology thing? I'm so confused.... Posted by Sakeneko (Member # 6393) on January 02, 200903:09 PM:

Scientology thing? The only scientology connection I know about with Australia is that Nicole Kidman was formerly married to a Scientologist. (Tom Cruise) Is there something else?
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 02, 200903:24 PM:

Nicole Kidman was a scientologist for awhile, not sure if she still is.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 02, 200903:46 PM:

I don't think she is. I think that was one of the rifts between them. She was then quit. She was like: "I signed up to pretend to be your wife but not to be a religious alien worshipping nutcase!" That and her banging George Clooney, then hanging on him like a love-struck teenager at the Oscars.

Clooney had that; "Bitch, your husband is here! Get off me! Look on his face. I know that look well. Stacy and I were watching and we both looked at each other and were like; Damn! Few days later D-I-V-O-R-C-E.

I think they had a free swinging marriage but agreed not to embarrass each other in public. She broke that rule. But it was great for her career.

When she took off the disguise did you recognize her? Was she somebody from your class?

Handicap people are not "entertainment". Maybe that is why most people ignored her. What were y'all supposed to do point, laugh and throw cheap food at her? Did you go to school on a real short bus?

KE
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 02, 200904:06 PM:

KE, those were the best two posts I've ever seen from you. What are you on??
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 02, 200904:13 PM:

"When she took off the disguise did you recognize her? Was she somebody from your class?"

Nope, just somebody with a sad story and a shtick to make people think about being nice to others, especially those who are different. I wouldn't mind it terribly in the right context - say, speaking to a church group - but it surely wasn't the right vibe for a party.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 02, 200904:49 PM:

Tommy,

That is hilarious. I'm at my wife's office and she asked me the same question.

Actually I showed up at work this morning and nobody was there. It turns off we get today off and nobody told me so I guess I'm psyched about getting a 'free day'.

On the downside my dad did it again twice. I don't know if I told y'all the second time. The first time was when he drove 150 miles the wrong way and ended up being pulled over going the way on a major highway. Highway 59 South. The Deputy Sherrif put him up in a very nice Best Western and let me come get him the next day.

The second time was Wednesday. I Constable called me and my dad was sitting asleep in his truck on a huge toll bridge that spans the Houston Ship Channel. One of his tires was blown and he had ridden it until the rim was crushed. The Sergeant said dad seemed like a nice guy and though he was really confused and or on drugs since it was a holiday if I would come get him he wouldn't arrest him. So I went and got him and we towed his truck home. Then I let him take my work truck to work, I know stupid, but he didn't do drugs for fear of wrecking my truck. However, as soon as he got home he took a handfull. Then he went out to walk the dog at 7:00am and passed out face down in a ditch. If my aunt hadn't heard the dog doing a Lassie he might have sufficated. The couldn't get him in a car to drive him home so my aunt called me and I went over there and picked him up put him in her Lexus SUV, drove him to her house and carried him in to the living room and layed him on the couch. Now I'm heading over there to give him my truck so he can go to work tonight. He "Myers Promises" that he will not do drugs while he has my truck. We set a great store by "Myers Promises" and all my life he's never broke one.

We will see. It's only my livelyhood. And how important is it really that Little John finish college.

I don't know what to do. Like Scifi says; he needs to be arrested, but nobody will arrest him. And I'm talking he's so wasted he can't walk or talk, much less drive.

I'm meeting my aunt at 6am in the morning and we are going to have an intervention. Pray for us that he keeps his word and makes it home sober enough to listen to us. Gotta go.

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 02, 200905:22 PM:

KE, good luck. You've got my prayers, such as they are.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 02, 200905:43 PM:

Thanks I need them. All I can get.

I'm at my aunt's house now having just watched my dad drive off in my truck. He was fine when he left. I hope he is still that way in the morning for our "intervention".

Well, Stacy just arrived to take me home so I'll be back in a little while.

KE
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on January 02, 200906:40 PM:

Was it your old high school? If so, your estimate of the cost is probably right. My school never had a reunion that I know of (it's not as common here) so I wouldn't know Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 02, 200906:52 PM:

"Was it your old high school? If so, your estimate of the cost is probably right."

Yes. If I was in charge of the school, I think I'd open the doors for free to reunions as long as they clean up after themselves (you need to try to be friendly with your alumni so they'll give you money later). But I can imagine a smallish fee.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 02, 200907:00 PM:

Scifi- I made my 13 and 15 year old read that link, just to have an excuse to laugh while explaining how to "build" a story for your audience. They loved it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 02, 200910:07 PM:

I should go "take it out" at work.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 03, 200912:47 AM:

ah.

I know what I need! I need some Ornery STAR Therapy... what you get when you swear up a bluestreak and the system will edit it out!!!

I am so ****in tired of beastly mean, stupid, ****ing bankers, financiers, investors, monopolies, and lawyers, today. They all need to go and STAY in some hellacious prison until the rest of America is out of the purgatory they have created. And then, when we are out, we will MAYBE remember to pray for the demons to vomit them out, but heck, who can blame the demons for their love affair with their own kind? Let them ****ing stay.

My cousin in New Mexico had a buddy of his and his buddies girlfriend over for drinks and drugs and they got in a fight. The girl ended up beating my cousin with a frying pan and the guy just beat my cousin with his hands, so my cousin got to his shotgun and killed the guy. Now he is in jail in New Mexico.

They say he'll probably plead down to manslaughter and do a few years in prison.

This was the sweetest kid you ever met when we were young. But he got into drugs, meth at the end, and now he is a murderer going to prison.

My family could be a soap opera, neh?

My dad didn't wreck my truck and when he got home my aunt gave him an ultimatum. She took all his drugs and locked them in a safe, and he went along with it.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 03, 200904:53 PM:

KE- Sorry to hear about that situation. It's one of the reasons I've always supported real, actual "drug-houses" - or places of retreat where consenting adults could go and be absolutely wasted with some adult supervision. There could be a door fee. I wish we could all own up to our stupidity and act like adults before we "clock-out" of responsibility, so that when we wake up or detox, the world is the same as we left it, leaving only our loss of time and money and sanity to deal with.... not loss of lives and futures.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 04, 200903:21 PM:

So, did OSC write a new Ender book, Ender in Exile, or is it old (which means, I read it and forgot it) and I forgot?
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on January 05, 200903:24 PM:

The book is new. I have a copy, though haven't started reading it yet. Anyone here read it? I don't have particularly high expectations for it, but the rest of the series was good enough that I'll read just about any Ender thing OSC puts out, just for completeness.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 05, 200903:41 PM:

well, maybe I'll look it up for my next string of flights. I like Ender more than Orson. Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 05, 200903:52 PM:

My 11 year old is home today because it is a teacher-work-day. He looked up from his book to say, "Mom, I have been thinking about it. I know I am mostly water, but if I were 100% water I would be a puddle."

He's so much fun.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 05, 200904:01 PM:

That's hilarious. I was deeply disturbed when I learned that we're like 75% water
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 05, 200904:04 PM:

His favorite words right now are

perhapsquiteactually

He's really fun to talk to these days.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 05, 200905:58 PM:

Jake started saying "actually" at about three. Which was great, and made me realize how much I say it.

Munga your kid sounds pretty smart to grasp that.

On another note; Al Franken freakin won?!!! The country has tilted far too left.

KE
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 05, 200906:01 PM:

Coleman is suing to have some other ballots counted, so it's still up in the air
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 05, 200906:24 PM:

I like Coleman, but I am thinking about trade-offs. Coleman was capable and in my experience tried to be honest, though he liked to be inaccessible. Even if Franken is not as capable in terms of writing and passing legislation, I would love it if there were just someone out there in the Senate calling the conservatives on their scumbaggery, so maybe this will be interesting.

KE- I really like the "quite" statements, in this 11 year old. They are quite interesting. Quite provoking. Quite silly.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 05, 200906:59 PM:

Mmm, quite.

Coleman is a professional politician. AKA, a douchebag.

Franken is an idiot and a douchebag.

I am completely apathetic about which one wins.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 05, 200907:00 PM:

Franken will vote dem. That tilts it for me.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 05, 200908:50 PM:

- Dishonest, too. He says he wants to understand religious belief then he doesn't let anyone get a word in edgewise unless they already agree with him. There was one guy who insisted on getting several sentences out in a row: Maher got up and left.

- He cherry picks religious people who are easy to ridicule. (The guy who plays Jesus at a theme park, for instance. Maher seems to deliberately avoid apologists who might be difficult to mock.)

- Equates all religions and religious beliefs.

- Maher is an *******.

The movie had some funny moments, like when Senator Mark Pryor responds to Maher's incredulity by saying he didn't need to pass an IQ test to be a senator.

Maher might have had a few valid points. Too bad he couldn't quit smirking until he got to his fervent sermon where he explained how all religious people are going to cause global destruction.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 06, 200905:45 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga: His favorite words right now are

perhapsquiteactually

He's really fun to talk to these days.

The next stage is using words like 'indubitably' and throwing in Latin phrases into conversation in an ad hoc fashion.

Also, I'm willing to bet he's modeling himself after someone close to him....

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 06, 200909:01 PM:

Little John is home for the holidays and last night he didn't come home at all. We didn't hear from him until three o'clock this afternoon. He forgot to take his phone when going out with his friend then stayed at a friends house.

Now he may do this all the time when he is away at college, but the we know nothing about it. Now that he is home we know and we worry.

Shouldn't he at least call?

KE
Posted by Chael (Member # 2436) on January 06, 200909:23 PM:

Yes, he should.

Good luck convincing him that you aren't just trying to keep tabs on him and restrict his freedom. Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 06, 200910:33 PM:

KE- On your son, yes, it would have been nice.

Well, my friend-atheist-KE:

I do believe that I have hit Munga's Most Shocking Post today, Munga post #3984.

It's a crazy thing that it is my religion that preaches the Plan of Salvation (which could also be called "God's plan for agency, vision and repentance" I suppose) and yet, I will probably find many more friends for the freedom and civil protection required to enact that, among the non-religious set. If any friends I still have.

I honestly don't know any other way to live, that will help us all be happy together. What is a Plan of Happiness worth if it isn't also Plan for everyone's Happiness?

God, in my opinion, is a humanist.

So, Mork, signing off from planet Earth, in full adherence to my mission.

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Little John is home for the holidays and last night he didn't come home at all. We didn't hear from him until three o'clock this afternoon. He forgot to take his phone when going out with his friend then stayed at a friends house.

Now he may do this all the time when he is away at college, but the we know nothing about it. Now that he is home we know and we worry.

Shouldn't he at least call?

KE

Yep, but he might have his reasons why he didn't....
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 06, 200911:12 PM:

Apparently he didn't call his girlfriend either and she was much more displeased than we were.

KE
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 07, 200903:09 AM:

KE my dad used to do that but stopped because I basically just ignored him. Although you're definitely a better father, and your son is probably doesn't have an antisocial personality disorder, so I bet it won't happen a lot if you tell him to. He probably just forgot.

"Maher might have had a few valid points. Too bad he couldn't quit smirking until he got to his fervent sermon where he explained how all religious people are going to cause global destruction. "

Yeah, he had some cool talking points, but he clearly wasn't interested in actually letting anybody else talk
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 07, 200903:30 AM:

quote:Apparently he didn't call his girlfriend either and she was much more displeased than we were.

KE

I understand. I'm sure things will be fine. From your descriptions of him, he sounds like a wonderful guy.

In my own dad related news, I'm kind of angsting about my own father who has very little money saved, no real saleable skills to speak of because he's been basically prospecting for gold with his own business these last... 25 years or so.

The economic downturn is probably going to chop his legs out from under him. When that happens, he is going to turn to his children, and at that point, there is going to be a lot of hurt feelings, because short of him living on the street, there is no way he would be living with me. My brothers feel the same way.

It's kind of a complex situation, but he basically cannot work in an any kind of organisation. I'm not entirely clear why this is, but when I've broached the subject of, you know, learning a marketable skill, he gives this song and dance about how he could never work behind a desk and wear a suit and tie, blah, blah, blah. He's gotta do his own thing!

Of course, growing up, this meant cheating on my mom, leaving us when I was six, six years later me moving in with him, then moving every year after that, after I started working loaning him money for utilities, watching his fiancee of ten years leave him when she got tired of it, go through a girlfriend every year or so, have incredibly fantastic debt, etc, etc. et.****ing.cetera.

My dad was in a rock and roll band for many years and still makes some money playing in front of people at bars. He is basically a good person with no real discipline, but being a basically good person doesn't pay for anything, and doesn't mean much when every now and then you're not basically a good person.

It would be easy for me just to say piss off, you've made your bed, now lie in it, but that might very well mean he would either be living on the street or kill himself. Probably the latter before he lived on the street.

So, now after years of my dad being Mr. Steppenwolf, the looming choice is either let my dad die, or be a doormat and let him stay with me and my brothers (where he will of course be demanding and want us to do things for him, make space for him, what have you).

Sigh. Hopefully this will all never happen. He's a brilliant person who's managed to often have a nice house and a car over the last few decades. Maybe he'll be able to keep things together until he dies.

Isn't that terrible? That I don't want to be burdened with my own father?

There is no real way out of this. Since I have no real influence over him, I can't change him, I have to just wait...and wait...and wait to see if that other shoe will drop. So, all I can do is just vent a little on the internet.

It feels good to get this out and tell other people about something that I haven't talked to anyone outside of my family about. So, if you've read this far, I appreciate it. Thanks for listening.

Little John was cool about it. I fake shook him around like I was mad at him and tossed him on the couch and he was laughing the whole time. He knows we trust him and we worry cause we love him. He promised to call next time. Man I love that kid.

And man, brother, we are so in the exact same boat when it comes to dads. Except my sister hates my father and hasn't talked to him for years so if my Aunt kicks him out cause of the drug problems it's me or the streets. And as much as I love him despite all the **** he's put me through I would still take him in if it wasn't for my youngest son. I will not have my son watch his grandfather fall down slurring and peeing in the corner of the bedroom because he doesn't know where he is.

I told him that last week and so far so good. And I know exactly the guilt you feel. And I know logically that neither one of us should feel it. But there it is. Father's and son's man.

I will never be a burden on my children.

I feel for you brother. Good luck. And remember; you gotta do what is best for your family and yourself first. My dad knows that and if it means he ends up eating his .45 out of pride or addiction, that's the road he chose. I just hope I'm strong enough to live through it and not let it negatively effect my being a good father and husband.

KE
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 07, 200910:29 AM:

Thanks for your kind words, KE. Hopefully things will resolve themselves for both of us.
Posted by Everard (Member # 104) on January 07, 200912:10 PM:

KE-My first summer home from college, something like what happened with John happened to me...

I was working for friendly's, until 10:30. There was a waitress working there who I was friendly with, a year younger then me. Her family owned a couple of large bouncy dogs (german shepherds maybe?) Since she was all of 92 lbs, she was kinda afraid of the dogs. About halfway through the summer, her parents went away for the weekend, and she was bitching about feeding the dogs because they scared her. I volunteered to feed the dogs for her, she said that would be great, we went to her place after work, I fed the dogs... and then started talking (yes, I'm an idiot. Nothing happened all night) with her. Around 11:30 I figured I should call my dad, but figured he was probably asleep.

Around 5:30 I finally left and went home. My dad was up, and apparently he'd driven around the whole town looking for my car, called the police and tried to report me missing.

I hate to say it, but I've read a few of Coulter's books just for viewpoint and style (she can skin a cat just inhaling, the witch). She's very interesting. I don't intend to read this one, though, I'm gonna be busy shortly.

Someone let me know if OSC's book is great/good/can miss/mustn't miss, that would be great to hear.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 07, 200905:27 PM:

SS - I so feel for you. We were in essentially the same boat about my dad. There was no way my husband would let him live here. He ended up moving in with his mom the last year of his life. It didn't occur to me that she might have resented it until after he died and my grandmother did a few things about the funeral arrangements that basically shut my sister and me (and our mom who was separated from but not divorced from my dad -- at my grandmother's request -- long story) out of the entire thing.

Now, in retrospect, I wish I'd pushed harder to have him here, at least part of the time. Once he got cancer, I guess it was too late. But even though he probably knew WHY he didn't have either of his kids' places to go to, I find it pretty darn sad that neither of us offered. If he'd been an evil person it would be easier now to think about it. But he was just selfish and a bit of a charming liar/user. It's still a regret for me.

I really hope it solves itself for you!cp
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 07, 200905:36 PM:

I'm glad you posted that cp. My mother in law might end up needing a place to stay (her husband WILL reach the end of his rope at some point, and we [what were we thinking] have more space than the rest of the family at the moment), and my wife has a lot of anger toward her, and says she doesn't want to have her live with us. MIL visits are inevitably strained and stressful for us.

But I don't want my wife to end up regretting it. I certainly do not want the old lady moving in; I guess I'll leave the details out but the words narcissist, Munchausen, and addict all factor in. I'm going to have to think hard about how much I can take in case my wife wants to have her move in.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 07, 200906:04 PM:

We ought to form a club. Thanks for your input, guys.

Group hug!

quote: It's still a regret for me.

I know, I know. Sigh. There are other issues involved in letting my father live with me, even beyond the immediate issues surrounding my father. For instance, taking care of my brother at some point, taking care of my mother who refuses to get health insurance-- I need to have resources for all of these.

I don't know. There's just no good answer to this one.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 07, 200906:44 PM:

A guy I've known since I was a child, I had more home made meals at his house than mine, but haven't seen in ten years or so until Stacy put me back in touch with him through Facebook, is in charge of putting on the "Model Search for the UFC". I don't know how he got this gig.

But Stacy has basically forbidden me from going! Not that I really want to go, other than to support my old buddy, but now I'm considering going on principle. I wouldn't care if she went to Chip-n-Dales and she has never objected to me going to a men's club. Though I haven't been to one in probably 12 years, but this isn't even nudity.

What do y'all think?

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 07, 200906:59 PM:

I tend to rebel when I think my wife is tightening up the leash too. There are a couple of things she initially claimed were no big deal which later became a big deal, and when I express my surprise she says "well I didn't want to make you mad so I was pretending it was OK and it really wasn't."

My gut reaction is always that I need to protect my rather limited freedoms with vigor. But that makes me feel like a bad relationship-er. (And it pisses off my wife, but I also feel pissed off because of the initial deception.)

I'm thinking I might be too immature to have much to offer, KE. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 07, 200907:04 PM:

I would say that sometimes we have to pick our fights, and I think you might want to kind of gauge just how big of an issue this really is for your wife.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 07, 200907:05 PM:

The truth is I'm probably too lazy to go, without the impetus of being "forbidden". I mean if I did go I would be fine with her going with me. And it's not like it is going to be a good place to pick up women. The women that are there, the models, are going to be young incredibly hot, out of my league, and being hit on by every guy and his brother. Oh, and I'm married. And 41, I don't think I will have to carry a stick to fight off the models.

In reality I'm probably not going to go because I really don't want to and there is a poker tourney that night, but I think it is crazy that she doesn't want me to go and thinks she can dictate where I go. She could ask me not to and I wouldn't go, but that isn't what she did.

Here's how it went down; I said; "I need some money for Thursday night." (Meaning for the Poker tourney. She thought it was for the Model contest which I had totally forgotten about.) She replied; "No. You're not going to that thing." You can imagine how it went from there.

My little sister's name is Mindy, and so my own name is alliteratively related 'M'- word, and that sounded like 'Mork and Mindy' ...which meant that I was Nanu'd for years and got rainbow suspenders for my birthday, which I had to wear so that everyone could say Nanu to me and smile even more. But I started this, didn't I. Gotta watch my own reflexes.

Shezbot! Sorry. We can drop it. That show jumped the shark when they brought in Johnathen Winters as a baby Orkin. Right about the time Happy Days jumped the shark when Fonzi jumped the shark.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 07, 200908:06 PM:

I agree. Total nosedive. They had re-runs over Christmas, though, so I got to show it to the kids.

(Vous ja de, the feeling that something never really ended in the first place.)

Which brings me to the theory that it is the TV writers who really don't understand that we enjoy the stories' conceits as is- we really don't want to change even if the actors are tired to death of it. This is why Simpsons are genius- Lisa keeps turning 8.

quote:"During 2008, Romney concluded the most credible presidential campaign of any Mormon to date and dominated the U.S. national news early in the year like no single Mormon has in recent memory,"

Er...there's been more than one?
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on January 08, 200912:49 AM:

Thanks. The problem is, when it comes right down to it, any intimacy and closeness I have comes from a very few people. I rarely have more than a couple at any one time. That is, someone I'd feel close to...

And the one I've been relying on most at the moment, and who in turn has relied a large amount on me, has had large changes in circumstances. Enough so that there's a noticeable change, to the point where I don't see much of them at all lately.

New friends, moving closer to family, and all of that... it's pretty much pushed me into a second string position.

I realize just how much I rely on my friend now. And I realize I have the most horrible thoughts, realizing that a large portion of the little intimacy I receive is evaporating. I feel resentful, even a little bitter, realizing that a large amount of why my friend was close to me was because of circumstances besides the fact that I was liked, such as lack of other close friends, living away from family, etc.

Or at least, my thoughts are floating in that direction. I may very well just be placing too much into it, and it might just be a temporary thing (my friend even apologized recently, realizing I was being neglected, and said that, using that very word.) But I don't know if that's true.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 08, 200901:36 AM:

The truth is out there somewhere .
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on January 08, 200907:23 AM:

The worst thing is, I'm not falling asleep. I'm still being bothered by everything, and this is just hurting me more and more. I feel tired, but I can't fall asleep because my body just won't stop thinking...

This night really sucks. It was the same last night, too. I have class in 3 hours or so, and I just can't get to bed!

Dwelling on things is never good, it never works. But sometimes, on occasional nights, my mind just won't shut down. Rarely has it been two nights in a row, though...
Posted by rightleft22 (Member # 2832) on January 08, 200908:43 AM:

I’ve had the same problem when it comes to sleeping. I found that not fighting it helped, just acknowledging the feelings and thoughts. Still there are times when I can’t stop the mind from spinning out of control so I’d just get up and watch some mindless TV till I was ready to try again. I also found that worrying about not sleeping before I went to bed was a good way to set myself up for the problem
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on January 08, 200908:53 AM:

Indeed. That sort of thing happens, and it really is better to relax.

But unfortunately, whenever I get into bed tonight my thoughts go back to the things that are bothering me, and I'd really rather just not sleep, if that's what's going to happen.
Posted by rightleft22 (Member # 2832) on January 08, 200910:03 AM:

I hear you; it’s a vicious circle for me as well. First I start thinking about what’s bothering me then I start worrying about not sleeping and I’m off to the races as I go from one to the other.

“But Cacioppo points out that loneliness isn’t about objective matters, like whether we live alone. It’s about subjective matters, like whether we feel alone.”

Aparently it's the thoughts we have about loneliness that leads and creates the feelings of loneliness. It’s a place to start anyway - at least we have some control or ownership for our thoughts.

I found writing down what is bothering me and then checking it for distorted thinking has helped me. The process helps identify the real issue so if you’re going to worry at least you’re spending your energy on something real.

CHECKLIST OF COGNITIVE DISTORTIONS1. All-or-nothing thinking: You look at things in absolute, black-and-white categories.2. Overgeneralization: You view a negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat.3. Mental filter: You dwell on the negatives and ignore the positives.4. Discounting the positives: You insist that your accomplishments or positive qualities“don’t count.”5. Jumping to conclusions: (A) Mind reading – you assume that people are reactingnegatively to you when there’s no definite evidence for this; (B) Fortune-telling – Youarbitrarily predict that things will turn out badly.6. Magnification or minimization: You blow things way up out of proportion or youshrink their importance inappropriately.7. Emotional reasoning: You reason from how you feel: “I feel like an idiot, so I reallymust be one.” Or “I don’t feel like doing this, so I’ll put it off.”8. “Should statements”: You criticize yourself or other people with “shoulds” or“shouldn’ts.” “Musts,” “oughts,” and “have tos” are similar offenders.9. Labelling: You identify with your shortcomings. Instead of saying “I made a mistake,”you tell yourself, “I’m a jerk,” or “a fool,” or “a loser.”10. Personalization and blame: You blame yourself for something you weren’t entirelyresponsible for, or you blame other people and overlook ways that your own attitudes andbehaviour might contribute to a problem.

I’ve been watching the BBC production of The Diary of Anne Frank . Probably the link wont work outside the UK but the program certainly puts in perspective any problems I might think I have.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 08, 200905:01 PM:

Omeg,

When I feel like that before I go to sleep I've found that this helps.

I tell myself that I'm going to give myself thirty minutes of laying there with my eyes closed trying to concentrate on relaxing my body, so at least I'll get "some", if not goood, physical rest, and if I still can't sleep and or am having bad thoughts, I will get up and read or watch tv or something. Knowing that I'm not laying down for eight hours of negative thoughts seems to help and most of the time I end up falling asleep. Good luck.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 08, 200907:36 PM:

0Meg-

Hey there.

I don't have anything cool to say, just didn't want to let the chance go by that I could say this-

You are a very good guy and just "being" of the fair, hardworking and generous sort means, inherently, that you will have some real opportunities for happiness. They might not be right in front of you, but that's the law of averages. On the other hand, there are people who are essentially unkind, judgmental, even cruel and selfish. Do you think they really have long-term joy potential, ever in their lives? I don't. My dad is and always was selfish, and he's been surrounded his whole life by people, and he's never been happy.

(I have to write a new post, sometime, about just how that mental gremlin appears to work-- if a man thinks that all his happiness is to be found in the most PERFECT attention to himself in the most PERFECT food possible, which will only be conprehensible to himself as the whim of the moment, then, as food is not even possible to have in perfection and also without thought, he spends every single moment miserable. This is just an example though. With people, it is far worse- he spends all his time imagining that he will feel happy with his children when they have perfectly adored him with money and gifts and anything at all that comes to his mind, but that kind of adoration is only availabe from dogs, so he likes dogs much much more than all his children because dogs at least get the right amount of adoration into the transactions...)

You've got the right stuff inside you. I dunno if you are a believer or not, but I look to lean, unhappy times when I lack something as reminding me how much I like something, as something that draws my own attention to that affinity so that I can grasp a later opportunity. Like this: I don't appreciate my health, then I get really sick, and because I got so sick, I realize how much I like health and decide to continue to pay attention to it and strengthen my body, which brings me greater, more conscious joy every day.

So, here is my idea... maybe there is sadness and loneliness now, but if you keep your eyes open, and think that maybe this helps prepare you to bond with someone, who might have sailed right past your view without notice before? Maybe this is a gift in preparation?

I don't see how it could hurt.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 08, 200908:40 PM:

Storm, Scifi - I'm thinking of you both. It's never easy to balance the needs of yourself and your immediate family with the needs of family members who seem to take more than they are able to give. Head says one thing, heart says another. If only it were simple.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 08, 200908:44 PM:

KE - Maybe her response was a knee-jerk reaction. Normally my reaction to my hubby (the very few times he's mentioned something like this) is, "Go! Have fun. Take a few pics for me." But there are days when I say something stupid like that and then can't back out of it w/o losing face.

Teasing her about it ("Oh come on, honey. I know you want to go with me.") might be better than the two of you getting into a battle of wills over something that is, ultimately, a non-issue.

OTOH, if she's anything like my sister, that would just p-o her even more.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 08, 200908:59 PM:

Thanks CP.

I didn't end up going to poker or model search. I went to Krogers with Stacy. My laziness and procrastination has saved our marriage more than once. I got a couple of good books at Krogers. Dean Koontz and Asimov's "Second Foundation"

I've said before; Stacy runs 90% or our marriage I just have Veto power. I can do pretty much whatever I want to do if I'm willing to put up with the misery I will get from her about it. Since I'm lazy and I don't like misery much less making her or myself miserable I don't do much that causes problems in our marriage.

Why? 'Cuz she's got a Jew-fettish. Someone, tell me that this is kinda common? My mother latches on to EVERYTHING about Jewish people, points them out whenever they are on TV, or have written a book or have produced a movie, "yes, those are the stars, but all the directors and producers are Jewish" and then she names them.

No, we don't have a drop of Jewish blood, and as far as I can tell, it is all admiration if not outright jealousy.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 08, 200909:52 PM:

You should tell her that she "can" convert and become a Jew herself. It's not like they are a different race or species or anything.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 08, 200909:54 PM:

No, its not the religion she's all excited about, she's a Mormon to the core. It's... everything else.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 08, 200910:00 PM:

I would wonder if it is just the Detectable Race Hidden in the White People phenom (playing Spot the Jew) but that isn't enough either.

Then, I wonder if it is the way they talk, she finds the hidden Jewish linquistics endlessly intriguing (oh, they sound so Jewish), but that's not enough.

She really gets off discussing how Jews are creative, and always behind the scenes and making the money or making the deals, or the real powerhouse behind ______. For all that she subscribes to the Jew Run Everything camp, she's thrilled with it and thinks it's marvelous.

I think she might like my last name, my married name, because people might wonder if it's Jewish.

I personally hadn't thought much about (fish in water) until my older sister joked at a Christmas gathering, just privately and without our mom there, that if she weren't able to play piano she'd had have to figure out some other way to be Jewish. Joke, get it?

I know i always go off the subject on everything on here, but I really gotta get my head straight once and for all over this.

A really close friend of my family died on the 28th of December (which unfortunately was also her birthday), and I cant seem to get my head around it. I can get my head around the fact that shes gone obviously, but I just get this sense of feeling that I should be changing my life and doing things that ive always wanted to do. I mean, i've lost quite a few people in the past, so why does this time feel so different?I dont know if its the fact that she has actually been the youngest person close to me that i've lost which is making me feel like lifes too short, or if its the fact that shes not buried yet, but all these different things keep going through my head and I cant seem to get over them. I dont think its even an ephithany of sorts, just this whole new outlook, but it just feels really weird to me.I dont even know if ive even explained it properly, but I need to know if anyone else has had thins kind of thing happen too? Like a different feeling after someone has died to change ways or old habits?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 09, 200912:16 AM:

Scouser,

Sorry to hear about your friend. If it leads you to make changes in your life for the better at least something good will come from it, and I'm sure your friend would be happy about that.

Munga,

I'm not a Jewish expert. But when you've got a religion that says "How well you do on Earth determines where and how you are going to spend eternity in the afterlife." And you really really really believe that. And everybody you are related to and in your community really really believes that. I think it would tend to make you a bunch of overachievers.

I thought Mormons had kind of a lighter version of that working now is good for later belief in their system?

Unfortunately being an atheist my thoughts run more along the line of this is all there is and when your dead your dead so why would you "waste" one single second doing something you don't want to do instead of enjoying life and being with those you love. It doesn't lead you to run the world behind the scenes but you enjoy life every moment you are able and you don't spend a whole extra bunch of time working either.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 09, 200912:48 AM:

quote:WOONSOCKET, R.I. — Two Woonsocket High School boys did the right thing by trying to get to school on time.

It was the way they got there that police had a problem with.

Police tell The Call of Woonsocket the boys ages 15 and 16 stole a car Tuesday morning in order to make it to school on time.

Police received a call about a stolen vehicle at about 7:44 a.m.

John Raymond, an officer assigned to the school, found the vehicle in the parking lot.

After questioning some students, he identified two boys he thinks arrived in the car. One was located in class, and the other was in the in-house suspension room with the stolen car's keys in his pocket.

The boys, whose names were not released because they are juveniles, are charged with motor vehicle theft.

Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 09, 200901:19 AM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Scouser,

Munga,

I'm not a Jewish expert. But when you've got a religion that says "How well you do on Earth determines where and how you are going to spend eternity in the afterlife." And you really really really believe that. And everybody you are related to and in your community really really believes that. I think it would tend to make you a bunch of overachievers.

I thought Mormons had kind of a lighter version of that working now is good for later belief in their system?

Unfortunately being an atheist my thoughts run more along the line of this is all there is and when your dead your dead so why would you "waste" one single second doing something you don't want to do instead of enjoying life and being with those you love. It doesn't lead you to run the world behind the scenes but you enjoy life every moment you are able and you don't spend a whole extra bunch of time working either.

KE

Oh, no, my mom's only is all excited about JEWS overachieving. Everyone else, she says "lovely" but Jews she goes nuts about. No idea why, and I'm afraid to ask.

And the reason to think we "overachieve" or that my mom admires Jews for it, isn't at all tied to a need to shine to get into Heaven. I'm not nutso about people because I'm going for some gold ring for myself later. God isn't giving me a horrid test and I've got to cram. I just need to treat others as I would like to be treated and accept Christ's gifts. No problem.

No, I'm nutso about people because I think it is the most exciting, interesting, wonderful thing to do all day every day and I have a great, wonderful time doing it. Who would want to study oceans or mountains when there are people? Now, I would do oceans and mountains for people, but instead of people? You gotta be kidding. I live with people I ADORE and I am just thrilled in general to imagine people having the time, resources, money, whatever they need, to become whatever neato thing and develop whatever talents they might have, or might wish to have. You might not have caught it on my dream-thread, but my most common dream or the most common connection to all my dreams as a child or now, is solving something neat. Tree life? cool. Water life? We can do it! I enjoy "working it out" and crafting the win-win-win-win-win-win-win....

yeah. I'm a nut. Fortunately, my husband is an even BIGGER nut.

But most Mormons are.... well... I don't know how to describe it. First of all, Mormons aren't any braver in general than any other folks. Overachieving would involve losing fear of rejection, judgment, obstacles and censure from The Establishment (of every kind of endeavor) and well.... the Mormons and post-Mormons and Mormon-graduates you know are the few who can hack it here in Ornery (the really brave, actually) and those who went their own direction (the really rare). You aren't getting a normal sample at all.

In order to really enjoy life, in my opinion, you gotta embrace the freebie God gave us to make mistakes (repentance) by going out there and taking a chance at making a difference. What if I set up the first safe-haven Drug House in the country in the middle of Salt Lake and lo and behold, it made a positive difference? You think I'm worried about sin? Heck no, I'm not trying to do anything bad at all, and I KNOW I've got permission to attempt solutions and changes so what's the problem?

And how many of us do you really see out there, besides Mitt, who even tries? I think Mitt's wrong on a lot, but not wrong to try. There it is: Reality and Status Quo are just sitting there waiting to be Bent, and all people do is.... nothing at all? Why get up in the morning? Why eat breakfast? Mormons should be all about "Zion" and that only happens if people are cogitating, but all I see is people in the west trying to pretend it is still 1950 rather than dealing with today's world and embracing the situation and making a positive contribution (and remember, we all get to live together in that changed, wonderful, interesting world-- what a reward!) That's just funk, baby. And maybe laziness? Snootiness? I'm afraid to say it---- stupidity? in not realizing the genius in the Plan? How hard is repentance compared to the weight of sin? I have been there, and it is something amazing. I haven't had a smidge of fear since. Sin and mistakes are meant to be erased, I'm happy to humble myself as necessary to ask for forgiveness and remove a problem and invoke that process, I have done it before, it absolutely works and it really is a Plan of Happiness. As there are only a few outcomes, then- success or change, or repentance and then change and maybe success again--- what is holding people back from dreams??? What a wonderful world God made, with wonderful opportunities in it called "things people can do together" and what is everyone waiting for?

I was wondering if I was spelling "achieving" right because it looked funky, put it in google, and all the links were about achieiving female orgasm.

I'm trying not to notice the irony.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 09, 200903:20 AM:

I'm thinking maybe her Jew-tracking is a hobby. Like collecting Pepsi memorabilia.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on January 09, 200905:40 AM:

munga: Thanks for the compliments.

"So, here is my idea... maybe there is sadness and loneliness now, but if you keep your eyes open, and think that maybe this helps prepare you to bond with someone, who might have sailed right past your view without notice before? Maybe this is a gift in preparation? "

Maybe. Perhaps I'm too hard on myself, but I find myself beginning to get a little skeptical of, well, this sort of thing being of any actual "help." I know how I feel, I know how much I'd appreciate people, and relationships and so forth. I'm the kind of person who doesn't make friends easily, not because I'm not friendly, but at least in part because of how I define friendship. The passing acquaintances, say, like my neighbors I occasionally speak to and hang out with, can be entertaining enough, but they aren't "friends." I wouldn't put a whole lot of emotional trust with them.

I suppose, for me, friendship, the thing I actually consider friendship, is deeper than that sort of thing. People I trust, people I actually care about, and who, in fact, care about me as well. Such things are uncommon, I've noticed. When the Bible talks of good friends being a rare treasure, I understand entirely what is meant.

And when it comes right down to it, at most I find a few such people at once, if that many. And I realize that at the moment, my friends are somewhat... distant. My closest friend's life is changing significantly, and has so many things going on it's not a big surprise that I, a close friend particularly in a time when there were few others, isn't being focused on as much.

I don't think it's good, at all. But I understand how such a thing could occur. I'm actually starting to get a little annoyed.

But it hurts, actually. It really does. Combined with the fact that, often, I DO self-criticize a large amount, and think ill of myself, it's a combination that does nothing to help me, in the least.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on January 09, 200906:07 AM:

"No, its not the religion she's all excited about, she's a Mormon to the core. It's... everything else."

Sorry to hear about your loss Scouser1I’ve been thinking about what you and Omegabyte have written and wonder how closely loss and loneliness are related. It’s not something that's easy to come to terms with and it’s no wonder it keeps us awake. From what I read the best way to deal with it is to consciously experience it, accepting that for a time you’re going to hurt but that it to will pass.

Came across the following which I thought was interesting:

quote: ‘Loneliness as a Way of Life,’ by Thomas Dumm “Loneliness as a Way of Life” a book begun as his wife was dying of cancer, Dumm set out to investigate the subject of loneliness as a way of understanding the world around him.

This modern world might be the “way of loneliness,” but readers should not shy away from the state. In fact, Dumm asserts that loneliness is the impetus that gives us autonomy, the ability to make decisions on our own terms.

Although the feeling might be painful, it is only through loneliness that we become true individuals able to make rational decisions and able to interact with others as rational beings. And, in an odd twist, it is this true sense of selfawareness that leads us to seek the community of others: “Our lonely way of being connects the innermost to the outermost, the personal to the political, and the trauma of individuals to the formation of the state in strange and attenuated ways.”

There is, however, a flip side to all this freedom. Dumm contends that the modern world’s confusion and fragmentation can lead to loneliness because they can block our relations with others. Although we might find solace in many -- some would say too many—distractions, which our lives throw at us seemingly at every minute of every day, these distractions obscure but don’t obliterate the separation that we have from others. What Dumm really is seeking, it sounds like, is that we embark on a deep selfexamination, a meditation of sorts, a consideration of who we truly are in our souls.

Using a range of literary texts and essays, he suggests that loneliness is a creation of the modern age. In fact, he calls King Lear’s daughter Cordelia the first truly modern person because of the decisions she makes.

In the end, though, this is a deeply personal book. Dumm is on a quest, and he finds that it is through his use of language, his ability to write, that he has “come to realize that as alone as we are, we are not only alone.” It’s a beautiful sentiment when you think about it. We must embrace what is not here to truly experience what is here. It is a journey that we all must take, each in our own way. Some would call it spirituality. Some would call it religion.

Dumm has a simpler explanation. Check out where you are. Acknowledge what you have and what is missing: “[B]eing present at the place of our absence is what it means to experience loneliness.”

It's like watching an express elevator to hell or something.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 09, 200912:35 PM:

Also,

quote:WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- The U.S. recession will last two full years, with gross domestic product falling a cumulative 5%, said Nouriel Roubini, chairman of RGE Monitor. Roubini was one of the first economists to predict the recession and the credit crunch stemming from the housing bubble. For 2009, Roubini predicts GDP will fall 3.4%, with declines in every quarter of the year. The unemployment rate should peak at about 9% in early 2010, he said. Consumer prices will fall about 2% in 2009. Housing prices will probably overshoot, dropping 44% from the peak through mid-2010. "The U.S. economy cannot avoid a severe contraction that has already started and the policy response will have only a limited and delayed effect that will be felt more in 2010 than 2009," he said.

So sorry to hear it, Scouser. Your feelings of loss could be because it is a younger person; we tend to feel that loss as less "normal" than the loss of an older person who has died. Or it could be a cumulative effect, if you've suffered several losses (deaths or other emotional upheavals) recently. I remember crying over some obscure actor who accidentally killed himself, despite not crying at all over my grandfather's death only a month earlier. Delayed reaction. Sometimes the surrounding events change our ability to deal with stuff like this. In any case, I hope you find your memories are a comfort.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 09, 200906:43 PM:

Ah, Scouser, it was actually a death that caused me to think about polygamy, a long time ago. My husband, then my fiance, asked me to help him visit a very good friend who was dying in the hospital. I'm bright and pretty good in most areas, but this girl was something else- a model and a full-ride scholarship and all sorts of other things. John had dated her and was a family friend and loved them all very much. So, this girl had asked John to marry her. John had already met me, and said no. We both visited her and she was a trooper about her hospital padded cell (isolation, she had no immune system then). She died about a month after our marriage. It had an impact, but we didn't talk about it out loud for several years.

It went like this:

John, sweetie, you knew she was terminal, why didn't you marry her and make her last months happier?

I had met you, I knew I wanted to marry you from that moment, and I didn't want to endanger that at all. I didn't know what you would do if I even broached the subject.

Hon, I'm not that mean. Or flighty. I wish you'd said something.

I NOW wish I'd said something, but I didn't know how you would process things then. I was "all eyes on the goal" and the thing is, SHE is that territorial, she once belted me for looking at another girl at a dance.

She decked you?

Dislocated my jaw and everything. Granted, there was nothing like that apparent when she was dying but you have to take into account my other experiences before thinking badly of me, please.

Ah. By initiating the thought I was also saying I was willing to be partners in heaven where, contrary to our thinking, I really don't think time is as we know it. I wonder what that would be like, if the change in the venue and the circumstance would maybe produce a better partner so that what isn't possible on earth is possible in heaven?

If we had her in our lives there, heaven would have to be different or we would both be cooked because she has a mean right hook.

-------------------------------------

I think that coming in close proximity to death isn't bad, it just makes life come into sharp focus. That, all by itself, can be strange.

Maybe it’s trying to get your head around loss that leads to the suffering?

The last six mouths have been a time of loss for me. A good friend of mine died of cancer, my girl friend of two years dumped me, my employer begun the first round of lay off people (I’m on the bubble and will probably be let go in the next month or so), and the thread that my faith was hanging on snapped.

The friend who died was the same age as me, similar work experience, never married, no children, etc… When my friends got laid off we stopped work for a moment or two and then continued what we were doing. The girl friend moved on. The church I attended for over nine years either didn’t notice I stopped going and if they did ???

I know sounds like a country song. I’d call it “Death by a thousand paper cuts” to small for anyone else to notice but each still hurting.

The thing that I have difficulty getting my head around is that “Life moves on” and for some reason that bugs me. Something ‘happened’ and it should have a bigger impact dam it!

And of course from there comes the realisation that when it comes to my time to go it will be the same. Life will continue with the memory of me fading within a generation.

When we are faced with loss we are faced with our own impermanence and aloneness.

rightleft, I think the answer is to find something else that gives your life meaning now. If you're posting on this forum, then you believe strongly in some cause. What are you doing to further that cause?

There are many groups that want you to join, that are waiting for you, that want your energy and passion. Join them, volunteer your time, and I guarantee you that you will have people bugging you to do things, asking where you are, because you matter within that organization.
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on January 10, 200912:48 PM:

quote:"Holy Hotties: Italian Priests Make Perfect Eye Candy"

I got my mom one of these for her office for 2008 (conference in Rome in late 2007) since she works at a small Catholic university. Sounded like it didn't get turned past April this past year...
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 10, 200904:10 PM:

"Life moves on"

Bugs me too. Which is weird because I don't begrudge the fact that life has been going on for billions of years without me before me. But to be here and realize I'm a mayfly, sucks.

Which is why we have children and make up stories about an afterlife. We have to. It's not a coincidence that "we" the species/amoeba that "wants to live the most is the one that evolved to dominate the planet. We're genetically programmed to desire to live.

Which is why even Xtians that "really believe" are in no hurry to go to Heaven and be with God.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 10, 200904:13 PM:

RL,

Could be used to make you feel less like a failure as a person. When you realize that even the most important of us will be forgotten and even those that are remembered for a long time, get nothing out of it. And why worry about things you can't do anything about?

Though that is one of problems I have with religion; it keeps us from working on "immortality" which is the only thing that would make our lives "mean" anything.

KE
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 10, 200905:35 PM:

quote:Originally posted by IrishTD:

quote:"Holy Hotties: Italian Priests Make Perfect Eye Candy"

I got my mom one of these for her office for 2008 (conference in Rome in late 2007) since she works at a small Catholic university. Sounded like it didn't get turned past April this past year...

quote:Originally posted by rightleft22: The thing that I have difficulty getting my head around is that “Life moves on” and for some reason that bugs me. Something ‘happened’ and it should have a bigger impact dam it!

And of course from there comes the realisation that when it comes to my time to go it will be the same. Life will continue with the memory of me fading within a generation.

When we are faced with loss we are faced with our own impermanence and aloneness.

You said it. When my dog died last year, I didn't want to stop crying b/c I didn't want to forget, to stop suffering, to "lose" her memory. It made me mad when I stopped tasting tears all day.

I remember reading an article about people who lived past 100. One of the qualities they all shared was resilience, or the ability to bounce back after setbacks, and esp in the case of losing loved ones. I know, from my grandmother's case (she died at 93) that you end up losing lots of loved ones when you make it to that kind of age.

Ever since my freshman year of college, when I realized that all of the seniors with whom I'd made friends were leaving and I'd probably never hang out with them again, I figured I better be good at dealing with loss or I'd be sad forever.

I don't know which I'd rather -- be good at loss or be a better "rememberer" of the lost.
Posted by rightleft22 (Member # 2832) on January 10, 200907:49 PM:

“It made me mad when I stopped tasting tears all day.” Yes!

Strange isn’t it! To live we find our way through loss yet at the same time it feels that doing so is a betrayal. Its not but it is.
Posted by rightleft22 (Member # 2832) on January 10, 200908:17 PM:

I don’t begrudge that ‘life moves on’ or that I will be forgotten. I have no desire to live forever, none what so ever to be candid. I do wish life to be meaningful though, to have been worth it and I’m not always sure it is.

When my friend died I wanted it to matter. And it did, does, but it also didn’t.

When my co-worker was laid off I was surprised that I found the feelings of the experience much the same. And of course when you move on from a job there’s that selfish hope that they won’t be able to get on without you but they do, we did and it sadned me. And if this is true why do we spend so much time and energy worrying about work? Why is it so hard to enjoy it because it is?

We have these sayings like ‘Life’s a bitch and then you die’ but what if its ‘life’s a bitch and then you don’t die, isn’t that worse? Or ‘what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger’. Observation would indicate that that isn’t necessary true at all. I have seen far more people crushed by the ordeal they suffered then those who became stronger. Turns out that for many what doesn’t kill them just wasn’t strong enough to get the job done… until it does.

I guess that’s something though, we have the capacity to define our experience and you don’t have to be religious to do that, but I suspect it helps. Why is more likely we create a negative naritive and feel so threatened when someones naritive differs from ours?

I hear people say that all the time. I have a hard time believing it. I mean, sure, if your choice is to get old and sickly and weak and miserable who would want to live forever, but if you could be healthy and happy who would say; okay, that's enough I think I'll turn out the lights next Thursday. "You" may not want to live forever, but that is something in your own mind that we as a species don't embrace. No matter what lies we tell each other. But having the option to live go on living as long as you want is what we should be striving for.

I used to think that when you got older and were sickly, had lived a full life etc etc. Then about a year ago I watch for six days as my grandmother 83 (3 heart bypasses) struggled and begged to stay alive as her lungs filled up with fluid and she eventually suffocated. She was not "ready" to go. So, saying "I have no desire to live for ever" is very easy. But, Matt, you're being glib.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 10, 200911:13 PM:

I don't get it. If the body was broken, why would anyone want to live in it another day? Heck, move on, and collect your family as they come with you.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 10, 200911:50 PM:

"Better to suffer the slings and arrows (broken body) of outrageous fortune."

"Thus conscious does make cowards of us all."

Because in their hearts of hearts most people are not positive about the existence of that undiscovered country. That and the survival instinct is a bitch. Which is kinda the point.

KE
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on January 11, 200903:54 AM:

"Ever since my freshman year of college, when I realized that all of the seniors with whom I'd made friends were leaving and I'd probably never hang out with them again, I figured I better be good at dealing with loss or I'd be sad forever.

I don't know which I'd rather -- be good at loss or be a better "rememberer" of the lost."

Is this really a barrier in the age of the net? Some of my closest friends i rarely or never see face to face. People I tell the most personal stuff and vice versa.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on January 11, 200905:23 AM:

"having the option to live go on living as long as you want is what we should be striving for."

Zackly. Like elves. When you get tired, you just sail away... Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 11, 200909:27 AM:

quote:Originally posted by RickyB: "Ever since my freshman year of college, when I realized that all of the seniors with whom I'd made friends were leaving and I'd probably never hang out with them again, I figured I better be good at dealing with loss or I'd be sad forever.

I don't know which I'd rather -- be good at loss or be a better "rememberer" of the lost."

Is this really a barrier in the age of the net? Some of my closest friends i rarely or never see face to face. People I tell the most personal stuff and vice versa.

True, Ricky. Not an option when I was in college! It is fun, though, now -- catching up with folks I never thought I'd hear from again. OTOH, there are a few folks I'd rather NOT run into again.

Still, a FaceBook chat has not recreated the same experience, in most cases. (Not that I want to be 18 or even 22 again!). Some things once gone are gone forever.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 11, 200909:29 AM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: I hear people say that all the time. I have a hard time believing it. I mean, sure, if your choice is to get old and sickly and weak and miserable who would want to live forever, but if you could be healthy and happy who would say; okay, that's enough I think I'll turn out the lights next Thursday. "You" may not want to live forever, but that is something in your own mind that we as a species don't embrace. No matter what lies we tell each other. But having the option to live go on living as long as you want is what we should be striving for.

I used to think that when you got older and were sickly, had lived a full life etc etc. Then about a year ago I watch for six days as my grandmother 83 (3 heart bypasses) struggled and begged to stay alive as her lungs filled up with fluid and she eventually suffocated. She was not "ready" to go. So, saying "I have no desire to live for ever" is very easy. But, Matt, you're being glib.

KE

In many cases, maybe even most, this is true. But my grandmother prayed every day for years for God to take her, and she went very peacefully and willingly. I never asked her exactly what she believed, although I do know she went to Methodist services most Sundays of her life and was married to a Methodist minister for around 50 years. She was just tired of living.
Posted by rightleft22 (Member # 2832) on January 11, 200912:28 PM:

I used to be a fan of the vampire stories and inevitable in their long life they get to a point were they long for death. In Buddhism I believe the ultimate goal is progress though you various life times to reach a state of being so that you do not have to come back.

I didn’t intend to be glib. I do believe we’ve been conditioned to believe that life (human) is good ‘in and of it self’ and that therefore must always be longed for. Without this belief I doubt we’d survive as a conscious species.

I watched my grandfather cling to life even though he spent his last years in a great deal of pain. In his case it wasn’t so much a longing for life but a fear of the unknown and underserved Calvinist quilt that he may not have been good enough.

KE you make that point that if you could be healthy and happy, why would you want to turn the lights out. I agree but knowing eventually that our health will deteriorate slowly or quickly. That is the reality. I also suspect that eventually the accumulated loss will break me.

I very much want to LIVE but I feel no desire to live forever, I don’t see the two as being incompatible.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 11, 200908:52 PM:

Yeah, I can see that RL22, but I'd really like the chance to live for eons before I say, "Okay, I'm done. Ready to go. Thanks for all the fun. Let's get it over with." If I'm lucky, I'll have 80 years, and that irks me.

OTOH, I've been ill enough, in pain enough, tired enough, and sad enough a few times to know that one CAN welcome death with open arms.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 12, 200901:32 AM:

It'd be nice if we could make it so life didn't ever suck so much that people wanted to die. Out of anything other than terminal boredom, I guess (which seems somewhat inevitable given enough time). Or curiosity to see what happens next.

But there's a lot of fixing to do before we get that fancy.
Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on January 12, 200902:07 PM:

You could always apply for the best job in the World.

quote: Tourism officials in Australia are describing it as "the best job in the world". They want someone to work on a tropical island off the Queensland coast. No formal qualifications are needed but candidates must be willing to swim, snorkel, dive and sail. In return, the successful applicant will receive a salary of A$150,000 ($103,000, £70,000) for six months and get to live rent-free in a three-bedroom villa, complete with pool.

Wow! I see it's more an extended publicity stunt than a 'job' but still...that sounds really really nice. "video applications" makes it sound like the photogenic will be favored, sort of like landing a spot on a reality show. Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 12, 200905:20 PM:

My previous manager at work says "sorta speak". It appears to be a genuine hybrid of "sort of" and "so to speak." Meaning wise, it is closer to "sort of." However, in cadence and location within sentences, it's closer to "so to speak."

Example: "They're looking for a report that will provide all the KPIs, sorta speak, in the next two weeks."

I have not.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 13, 200912:07 AM:

Pardon me for boasting, but I did some damn-fine writing today.

It'll be one for the courts. I love those.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on January 13, 200902:05 PM:

Did anyone watch Sean Hannity's first show without Alan Colmes last night? (I get only the most basic cable available, so I don't have Fox News.)
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 13, 200902:51 PM:

I missed the drama- why and where did Colmes go?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 13, 200904:33 PM:

OK---

Let's have some bets--- I want to see if it is possible to predict OSC at all. Or worth trying. They say in business that the great thing about principled people is that they are predictable. As OSC is breaking all his own rules (Plan of Salvation V Protection of moral choices by Civil Law) and he is willing to pretend to understandings he does not have (Bail Out piece, Environment piece) I don't know that he is predictable at all.

Anyone care to bet and say OSC IS principled and the next piece will demonstrate a principled stance?
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 13, 200908:04 PM:

"Sorta speak" kind of sounds like a southern Pennsylvania/rural VA accent, such as when people pronounce Washington as Warshington or gosh as garsh.

Could it be that?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 13, 200908:32 PM:

scifi, I bet that manager would be very surprised if you spelled out "so to speak" for him. I bet he never knew it was "so to speak".
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 13, 200910:00 PM:

cperry, rural Utah has some "warsh" and "garsh" too. Could be it. Or munga could be right too.
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on January 13, 200910:57 PM:

The accent that turns "wash" into "warsh" has confused me for years, because it seems to turn up everywhere. My grandfather grew up in Kansas and Iowa and used it. Like scifibum, I've heard Utahns use it. Now cperry is telling me that southern Pennsylvania/rural VA residents say it, too. How is this possible? Do we have some sort of weird background accent that stretches all the way across the country where a few people use the word 'warsh'?

My grandfather would also turn "oil" into "oril". But the absolute best one I've ever heard goes to my grandmother. She was born in Idaho but also grew up in Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Utah(?) and who knows where else. (Her father worked for the railroad.) She's possibly the only person in the entire world that goes into the bathroom to use the "torlet".
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 13, 200911:03 PM:

History credits the Italian philosopher as the first to turn a telescope towards the moon, but months earlier Thomas Harriot drew detailed maps of our heavenly neighbour, revealing mountains, craters and giant plains

Thomas Harriot a wealthy but publicity-shy astronomer and mapmaker, produced a series of exquisite lunar drawings, one of which is dated 26 July 1609 , pre-dating Galileo’s much-celebrated observations of the moon by six months.

"Crucially one of his maps is dated, which proves Harriot pre-dated Galileo, who has always been thought to have done the first observation of the moon through a telescope," said Alison McCann, an archivist at the West Sussex Record Office. "Galileo was very good at self-publicity but Harriot wasn't interested. He didn't publicise his work and this is why few have heard of him." Galileo was hard up and in search of fame and fortune, but Harriot, who had money but also two friends in the Tower of London for political crimes, had no wish to draw attention to himself.

(okay - I'm an English teacher and can't help it; it's in my DNA )
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 14, 200906:08 PM:

I (usually) have the opposite problem. I imagine a pronunciation based on the way a word is spelled that turns out to be wrong.

But my favorite comes from my mother in law.

Talking to my wife about Netflix:MIL: "Did you add the movies to your kwee?"W: "My what?"MIL: "Your kwee, on Netflix. The list of movies you want to see."W: "Oh, my queue."MIL: "No no, it's pronounced kwee." [MIL has never been proven wrong to her satisfaction.]

I work in the operations support area of the customer support division of a large company, so I hear, read, or write the word "queue" approximately 1 bazillion times a day, so this one makes me laugh.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 14, 200906:33 PM:

My dad, a pretty good wordsmith, used to mispronounce words for fun, but since I was a kid, and very gullible at that, I never knew quite for sure how to pronounce them:

He said byoo-tocks for buttocks and reee-spite for respite. He also liked to say an-ti-kew instead of antique. That one, at least, I knew how to say correctly!

One day, after my Russian teens were in America for about 3 months, my daughter asked, "Mom, what's an an-ti-kew?" She saw it on the side of a store in our small town. I laughed and laughed. All those years of hearing my dad say it that way, and I never realized that was how it actually looked.

It was hard to explain to the kids, though, why I was laughing.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 14, 200910:10 PM:

My understanding is this one is a result of the way our mouths shape the phonemes of the word. It's a "lazy" way to say it since you don't have to move between the "oo" and "ee" sounds.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 15, 200905:13 PM:

Makes sense, scifi. But my mom says it that way, and in general she's a stickler for "correctness."
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 15, 200905:58 PM:

I'll admit that I used to have a problem saying "hundred" instead of "hunred" (or something like that) and "fitting" instead of "fittin", which was a real problem since I worked for a fitting company.

KE
Posted by Dave at Work (Member # 1906) on January 15, 200906:03 PM:

Or was that a fittin company?
Posted by Quinnalus (Member # 6374) on January 15, 200907:55 PM:

... or Fittin' to go get sumthin' ta et...

as in, Fixing to go get something to eat...

as in, about to go get something to eat...
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 15, 200909:41 PM:

my favorite southernism

"I may can see about that."
Posted by Lina Inverse (Member # 6361) on January 15, 200911:01 PM:

"Pin" and "pen" sound exactly the same to me. I think I was 22 or 23 before I found out that most people apparently pronounce them differently.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 15, 200911:11 PM:

The one I think makes us sound the stupidest is: "Fixin to". You know like. I'm fixin to go to the store. Or; I'm fixin to buy a hunert fittins.

That and: Djeet yet? Instead of Did you eat yet?

My sister used to say "elphanunt". It was precious.

One I don't like from other parts of the country that we don't say down here is "Wanna come with?"

KE
Posted by Quinnalus (Member # 6374) on January 16, 200912:58 AM:

My personal favorite "Southernism" is that all Carbonated Beverages are "Cokes"

'Fixing'? I say that all the time.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 16, 200906:17 AM:

Generally we call carbonated drinks "pop" around here. So I call it soda just to throw everybody off a little bit. If you use slightly different language you keep everybody just that much less on their toes. Easier to manipulate them that way Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 16, 200908:04 AM:

Oh yeah, you never hear pop or soda or soda pop, everything is coke. What kind of coke you want? Pepsi.

KE
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 16, 200910:04 AM:

Must be a Texas thing.
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on January 16, 200903:44 PM:

TommySama: Oh, yeah. I don't care at allDad: What's the matter with you?

TommySama: I barely knew the guy, why would I care?

Dad: He's a human being, and your uncle!

TommySama: Lot's of human beings have heart attacks. I don't bother caring about them, why should it be any different for him?

Dad: You and Dad2 are just as bad as each other. Damn it, I can't even talk to either of you right now.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 17, 200907:28 PM:

Perhaps he expected you to care that it might make your mom sad?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 17, 200907:44 PM:

Tommy- Next time maybe consider suggesting to the hyperventilating dad that the real question at the moment is, Did the other dad express sympathy and concern on behalf of the family or in other words, Take Care of Family Duty to Appear Involved and Concerned....instantly to the person who conveyed the news?

(I find that half the time "I need to know" is "I needed to make sure that everything was done right so no one would think badly of me"... which kinda suggests a little over-bearingness coming out of a little insecurity... but no one has ever been able to solve that in another person so.....)

.... suggest to both that if this was done (I'm sure your Dad2 isn't a schmuck and did convey sympathy) conclude that swirling emotions around about who got to express those sentiments to the person who conveyed the news of the heart-attack... is really spinning tires.

I don't care what that study says, I've never heard it, and I've lived in both urban and rural Florida and Georgia.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 17, 200909:01 PM:

Tommy, that was a selfish thing to say. Even if you don't care because you don't really know the guy, you should care because you love your mom and she cares.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 17, 200911:46 PM:

I don't love my mom. And I wasn't talking about her
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 18, 200901:17 AM:

THey are. I don't have to wonder every day whether or not I'll get a can of spagettios for dinner. I don't have to deal with anybody manipulating me. I don't have to deal with being called mentally ill when I am in a good mood by a woman who is supposed to be taking care of me.

Sorry, Tommy. Didn't mean to hit a nerve. But I have found that many times, people expect us to express sympathy for their loss, even if we don't feel it ourselves. Maybe that's where your dad was coming from?
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 18, 200902:22 PM:

Has to include more than Iraq and Afganistan. Anybody recommend some good books or sources to read up on how it's being done (and/or how it's different than before 9/11)?
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 19, 200903:46 PM:

I can get my head around about 1/5 of that article, after one very arduous reading. I'll try again later
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 19, 200908:01 PM:

What I think it boils down to is -

- There's a theory that information can not be destroyed (scrambled beyond recognition, sure, but not destroyed)

- Black holes posed a problem for this theory since stuff that escapes into the black hole is gone, (once the hawking radiation causes it to dissipate) along with the information it represented (so the thought went)

- One possible solution is that matter's interaction with the event horizon boundary encodes the information in a different way. So the "surface" of the black hole still contains the information that was absorbed. This is called the holographic principle I think.

- The universe has a similar "surface" at the limit of light's expansion over the last 15 billion years

- This surface encodes the information in the universe, similar to how the black hole's surface encodes what fell inside.

- The smallest unit of anything was thought to be the Planck length.

- However there's no way to encode all the Planck lengths in the universe on the surface of the universe - not enough room. (You can't stand as many people on the surface of the earth as you could pack into a hollow earth sized sphere.)

- Therefore the smallest unit of information is on a much larger scale - such that all the information can be encoded on the surface of the universe's volume (the outer envelope would encode on the Planck scale and the inner information would be much grainier).

- Therefore things are much grainier than the Planck length.

Calling the universe a hologram gets people such as Scott Adams thinking in the wrong direction - thinking "simulation". (I still don't know if Scott really believes that various random events confirm his vague predictions or if it's just part of his way of being entertaining.) It doesn't mean the universe is being projected in the information system of an outside entity in this case. It just says that the universe conforms to the theoretical holographic principle. Reality is as real either way.

I continue to hate the way science is reported to laypeople. In this case, "the universe is a giant hologram" makes the theory harder to understand, instead of illuminating the idea.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 19, 200908:19 PM:

totally cool! thanks, scifi, for the translation and tommy for the link.

A guy walks into a bar and sets down a tiny piano with a tiny pianist to play it while the bartender gets his drink. When the bartender returns he says,

"Hey, where'd you get such a small piano and man?!" Man replies,

"Oh, I found a genie, and he gave me this. For a free drink I'll let you use the genie."

"Well sure," said the bartender. "Alright, I wish I had a million bucks!"

*WOOSH* All of a sudden a billion ducks fills up the store and all over the street as far as the eye can see.

"Hey, I asked for a million bucks, what's going on here?!" The bartender asked.

The man stood up to leave. "What? You think I asked for a 12 inch pianist?"
Posted by scouser1 (Member # 3455) on January 19, 200910:17 PM:

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 19, 200910:27 PM:

Posted by elk (Member # 6369) on January 19, 200911:32 PM:

quote:(I still don't know if Scott really believes that various random events confirm his vague predictions or if it's just part of his way of being entertaining.)

You can't think that way and not at least in some minute way have some sort of belief in it. You may have other beliefs that drown out these ones at least concerning what you would claim to believe, but as you feed these beliefs they are bound to seep into the dominant realm. Didn't he relatively recently blog about the effects of persuasive writing about things that you don't believe?
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 19, 200911:46 PM:

That was an interesting article. Two things it caused me to question: one I forgot as I am watching the inauguration; the other is whether there is a correlation between the character of those who limit themselves to drinking in moderation and their statistically longer lives, rather than the alcohol itself generating the extended lifespan.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on January 20, 200901:34 PM:

This will probably be irreverent, but---doesn't a "truth commission" sound like something out of 1984? I think it's because the phrase yokes together the noble abstraction "truth" and the prosaic, bureaucratic word "commission".

(I mention this because I read some people saying, "Oh, we need a truth commission to investigate the Bush administration's crimes!" If so, I hope they call it something less euphemistic.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 20, 200902:07 PM:

You're right, it'd be a perfect doublespeak moniker.

If people want a Bush hit squad, call it the "Bush Crimes Investigation Commission." (or something more acronym friendly, like "Commission for Hounding and Eviscerating Numerous Executive Yeomen") It'd be honest at least.

At least let's wait for an honest-to-God revolution before we commission official revision of the truth in general. It'd be a lot more satisfying if accompanied by a standing against the wall of a bunch of Enemies of The Truth .
Posted by Brian (Member # 588) on January 20, 200902:54 PM:

scifibum:

quote:However there's no way to encode all the Planck lengths in the universe on the surface of the universe - not enough room. (You can't stand as many people on the surface of the earth as you could pack into a hollow earth sized sphere.)

One of the few things I remember from my 300 level calculus course is a mathematical construction which looks an awful lot like a cornucopia, and has the interesting property of a volume smaller than its surface area. As the professor stated: 'If you could constuct one of these, and filled it with paint, you wouldn't have enough to paint the outside surface. You wouldn't even have enought to paint the inside surface.'

That last sentence set up a destructive resonance in my brain, and is why I remember that class 12-13 years later.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 20, 200904:03 PM:

"and has the interesting property of a volume smaller than its surface area"

I'm having a hard time imagining how this could be true. The paint example makes the nature of the claim clear enough, even though volume and area aren't comparable units (though I did compare them too, I realize)...but I can't imagine it. That makes me want to read about it. Do you remember the name of the construction?
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on January 20, 200905:52 PM:

Brian is referring to Gabriel's Horn. As usual, it is an interesting paradox that goes away if you get rid of subtle assumption. (In this case, the assumption is that paint is 2 dimensional.) As usual, once you know the name, Google will tell you all you could ever want to know about it.

I slipped and fell between classes yesterday (first time that's happened to me since, like, middle school.) Now whenever I pick up anything as heavy as a textbook with the arm I fell on, the muscle feels like it has a ton of pressure on it. If I don't let go immediately, a sharp pain shoots through the area. Besides that I just got a few bruises on my wrists, elbow, and feet (somehow). Unfortunately I doubt I can get any vicodin out of it. What a waste...
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 21, 200906:16 PM:

Man, Tommy, get it checked out. Even if you don't get vicodin, you might fix something before it gets worse.

Eek. Hate it when there are witnesses. 8( Yes, it could be a pulled muscle, esp since it hurts in some cases and not others. But there IS treatment you can do for pulled muscles (beyond Advil, which you should be using, if you can -- not that I'm a doctor). And a pulled muscle can be a problem forever, if you don't handle it correctly. Look it up at least -WebMD.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 21, 200907:22 PM:

Tommy,

if you ice it 1-3 x day and it reduces, it is probably just a pulled muscle.

however, can also be a permanent, though prolly minor, injury. (torn muscle or ligament)

which raises the q- got insurance? If NOT---- just breathe your way through this now if you can and make no claim or appointment anywhere. Later, when you have insurance, you can remember that you fell .... inaccurately.... and that you hadn't thought it was serious, but apparently it was permanent ... and get it fixed. For the record, yeah, I think medical care should be for all.

(that's a combo of me and my lovie's advice- he was a weight trainer and I'm a whateverIam)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 21, 200907:33 PM:

I have made an observation over the last... say... 30 days that I will, first, ask you to help me verify, and then, if it is verified... I would like some analysis...

But first things first...

It seems that over the last, approximately, 30 days... everytime Mr. Obama holds a press conference... the stock market drops and average of 30-50 points... the Inauguration was slightly more drastic... This also, usually, corrects itself before the closing bell...

If you have time over the next couple of weeks... please play a little closer attention to the stock ticker in the corner of the screen during Mr. Obama's press conferences. That way I can either get independent confirmation of the phenomenom, or, prove that it is just my imagination...
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 22, 200905:18 PM:

believe me, when it is time to talk about details, nobody is talking about an obsolete tax.

quote: It was common for some customers buying material or draperies to say to the salesperson "Let's use the brass tacks" which were embedded in the counter. Usually the salesperson would use his or her arm to measure the material. This has been seen in the UK even in the 1950s. This was done to save time overall, but the suspicious customer would often insist on having the material measured exactly, right up to the line of brass tacks.

and since they mean it in this sense (not referring to the silly tax appended to something NOT in this deal- namely brass!) why not spell it appropriately?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 22, 200905:29 PM:

I definitely prefer the brass tacks version, and consider the etymologies offered for that version to be more relevant to the intent when the phrase is used nowadays.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 22, 200907:54 PM:

omigod. In response to this line from an OSC column against gay marriage:

"Biological imperatives trump laws."

Someone wrote:

"The guys down at the graveyard don’t believe this at all but the guys at the morgue will pay if they can watch."
Posted by OpsanusTau (Member # 2350) on January 22, 200910:59 PM:

Tommy:

You should definitely get a professional opinion. It's possible that you tore something and need surgery. It's also possible that you bruised something or otherwise damaged it in a way that will cause you permanent loss of motion or capability if you don't get a little PT.

(I took a catastrophic fall skiing some years ago and destroyed the rotator cuff in my left shoulder - I could move it in some directions but not others, some things were fine and others were not. If I hadn't gotten immediate treatment from the doctor in the family, I probably would have required surgery and would have lost half the use of my arm.)

Also, you should move to New York! I'm probably moving to New York! Hooray for New York!
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 22, 200911:04 PM:

Well I'm going to the doctor tomorrow for a check up so I'll mention it
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 23, 200903:10 AM:

munga, I haven't declared yet, but I plan on double majoring in political science and criminology, and hopefully moving on to law school. It's my writing arm, so I will probably need it! Aspirin doesn't work, so I'm just medicating with vodka and pot Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on January 23, 200905:20 AM:

Tommy - I personally find pot none too reliable as a pain medication for general pain. Depending on all sorts of variables, it can allay the pain some... or make you feel it more acutely.

As a pain med, weed is iffy, but it generally eases muscle spasms and nausea.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on January 23, 200912:22 PM:

Yeah I don't actually smoke pot, usually I cough so much I feel sick. Not worth it, I had a little at my friends house but I don't know if it helped.

I made an appointment at my old childrens pediatrician, but my dad promised to set me up one at an actual doctors office (without dinosaurs on the wall.)

But apparently my dad mistakenly thought I would go to "my uncles" funeral in North Dakota and thus didn't set me up an appointment. He wouldn't let me drive to visit my aunt who I actually knew before she died. Why the hell would I waste my weekend on some guy I don't even know's funeral?
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on January 23, 200902:52 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga:

me: Buggie, I told you to go to sleep, what are you doing?

him: tickling my pee-pee.

-----------------------------

uuuuuhhhhhh

And how old is "Buggie"?

Just tell him not to do it around anybody else and not to make a mess.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 23, 200903:09 PM:

six. I think that is pre-mess. At this point, I'm just glad he's got the sense that this is a private thing.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 23, 200903:14 PM:

Hey everyone, I've got a general report:

What I am seeing now, is that the local government entities that have been petitioning the state mechanisms for use of the instruments of finance intended for them, and have been denied for many years (occlusion to special interests/ monopolies/ lobbyists) are getting a brand new vibe:

they see the stimulus money.

so do the governors and the utilities.

They are screaming at their senators and congressmen to NOT hand the money to the state finance agencies or the governors because those state agencies have been withholding the instruments of finance for them for YEARS and why, if they had new money, would they change their ways? Worse, why hand the money to the utilities who have been blocking renewable energy finance by insisting upon unbankable, non-marked to market (non-financeable) power purchase contracts (needed for construction)?

result: I am now watching the beginning of what I hope is a very interesting snowball-----

Certain municipal parties are meeting with their congressmen, to plot to get the stimulus money around the state entities that have been drinking in the tax dollars and not allowing them to go back to the communities.

A high ranking guy at work today said that we needed to "get down to brass tacks". I understood it, and silently felt superior to a co-worker who probably didn't get the reference. Thanks for feeding my ego guys!
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 24, 200908:06 PM:

I'm thinking of buying an exercise machine of some kind. Due to my long commute and the relative isolation of our home neighborhood, it's hard for my wife and I to get the time for going to any kind of gym. I want to work up to running but there's still the downside that for one of us to go out running the other one has to be supervising the kids, and the minor inconvenience of that fact, plus that I'm rarely home when it's light out, mean running outside so far seems too hard. So I've been considering one of the following:

What didn't work for my parents and still sit unused:Nordic Track (too difficult to master the movement)A very LOUD stationary bike (too loud)Aerobic rider (induces motion sickness and terminal boredom)

Any ideas? We need exercise badly, but being weak of will probably would do better with something that allows us to watch TV while we do it. I'm wondering if finding the right equipment will even help, or if it's entirely a harder question of finding motivation and the equipment is a much lower priority concern.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 26, 200911:24 PM:

Scifi-

our attempts with bikes (in horrible MN) were OK, but we never got great with them.

I always thought that if I wanted to try it again, I should have put one or two (pairs skating!) in front of a television and that might have made a big difference in our willingness to use it.

edit: ah, I see you already figgered out the tv part. Note- a TV with a "reading option" -so that MY VERY LOUD MUSIC tucked into my ear didn't affect my other double-distraction, news collection, would have been even better.

quote:Are you or someone you love dating a banker? If so, we are here to support you through these difficult times. Dating A Banker Anonymous (DABA) is a safe place where women can come together – free from the scrutiny of feminists– and share their tearful tales of how the mortgage meltdown has affected their relationships. DABA Girls was started by two best friends whose relationships tanked with the economy. Not knowing what else to do, we did what frustrated but articulate girls have done since the beginning of time - we started a blog. So if your monthly Bergdorf’s allowance has been halved and bottle service has all but disappeared from your life, lighten your heart with laughter and email your stories to dabagirls@gmail.com. Warning all stories sent will be infused with our own special brand of DABA Girl humor.

That is supreme.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 27, 200906:47 AM:

quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I'm thinking of buying an exercise machine of some kind. Due to my long commute and the relative isolation of our home neighborhood, it's hard for my wife and I to get the time for going to any kind of gym. I want to work up to running but there's still the downside that for one of us to go out running the other one has to be supervising the kids, and the minor inconvenience of that fact, plus that I'm rarely home when it's light out, mean running outside so far seems too hard. So I've been considering one of the following:

What didn't work for my parents and still sit unused:Nordic Track (too difficult to master the movement)A very LOUD stationary bike (too loud)Aerobic rider (induces motion sickness and terminal boredom)

Any ideas? We need exercise badly, but being weak of will probably would do better with something that allows us to watch TV while we do it. I'm wondering if finding the right equipment will even help, or if it's entirely a harder question of finding motivation and the equipment is a much lower priority concern.

It all depends on what YOU will use, which depends on what YOU like. I prefer the elliptical machine b/c it's easier on my knees. Hubby prefers our treadmill. Both are anxiety-inducing when 4 year old is around, even though she's bright enough to know to stay away, she still comes closer than I want her to, and then I have to stop, etc. (My sister's kid had a run-in with a treadmill some years back -- I can't remember how old she was at the time. It pulled ALL of the skin off the top of her hand.)

Look at what you already do and then see how you can fit a machine into that. If you watch TV, can you put the machine there? If it's in your garage, odds are it'll stay unused.

My elliptical is very quiet. Much quieter than the treadmill.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 27, 200912:08 PM:

Would it be possible for the whole family to exercise together?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 27, 200902:56 PM:

Storm, do you have children? Let me suggest that the idea "Let's have some uninterrupted activity of raising our heart rates" never resonated with my short crowd.

Well, it does, as long as the actual activity changes every 15 seconds.

I really really really would love to have a TV (the only tv) solely powered by an exercise machine (elliptical, bike, stair climber). Watch all the tv you want, as long as you generate enough electricity to keep it on.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 27, 200903:35 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga: Storm, do you have children? Let me suggest that the idea "Let's have some uninterrupted activity of raising our heart rates" never resonated with my short crowd.

Well, it does, as long as the actual activity changes every 15 seconds.

I exercised with my mom when I was young, went jogging with her. Still take walks with her.

There are plenty of things that can be done as exercise with the whole family-- hiking, canoeing, skiing, basketball, paired resistance exercises, swimming or surfing at the beach....

Many kids in my experience, including myself when I was young, often enjoy spending time with their family.

Of course, I guess it depends on the child and the family dynamic, but it's possible.

On that note, I have to wonder if the local YMCA doesn't have some kind of thing where kids can be in some kind of class or activity while their parents are exercising?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 27, 200905:56 PM:

Storm, I can't think of something that can both engage kids from 1-5 and actually provide sustained aerobic exercise. I'm looking forward to more outdoor activity with them when they're older.

If only we lived close to a gym with child care. Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 27, 200906:00 PM:

I do my routine at Bally's - where my six year old son goes to Bally's Kids Class because otherwise he would interupt me- if only by talking to me when I'm breathless- or by moving away when I'm targeting a muscle group... if your mom managed you anyway while doing that, SS, she IS wonderwoman.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 27, 200906:48 PM:

Well, there were plenty of times when she just put a cushion down in front of the tv we were watching and did her thing.

I think the elliptical is a good bet. I spend a lot of time on cardio machines. I *hate* treadmills personally because without the breeze get running outside, I overheat. YMMV, but if you aren't up for running yet and are building up to it, I think the elliptical would be a gentle bridge that would help you raise your cardio fitness/do soem fat burning without the more extreme (but super healthy) stress of running.

I think the Bowflex and such are sort of a waste. Weight training is awesome, but for far less than the cost of a Bowflex, you can buy a used set of dumbbells or, best of all, a bar and some bumper plates off Craigslist, and a few books on lifting, and get a far more dynamic workout. Machines offer less flexibility and you lose a lot of the secondary muscle training provided as you stabilize yourself using dumbbells or a bar.

I also recommend getting a heart rate monitor (Polar makes really nice ones for <$80) if you're working on cardio and fat burning, because it will help you stay in the right zone. I find mine a huge motivator, too.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 28, 200909:17 AM:

quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Storm, I can't think of something that can both engage kids from 1-5 and actually provide sustained aerobic exercise. I'm looking forward to more outdoor activity with them when they're older.

If only we lived close to a gym with child care.

It is SO difficult to get sustained aerobic exercise with toddlers. Maybe think of it as "cross-training" until they're older? Or take turns. Here, hubby goes downstairs for 30-60 min, then I take my time. We tried engaging 4 year old with us, but like I wrote earlier - I was constantly stopping to do something for or with her or stopping because she would get too close for me to feel comfortable on the elliptical. I even tried kiddie aerobic videos, but she can't last 30 minutes without being distracted. (I'm trying not to worry about that yet.)
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 29, 200904:58 AM:

OR,

Completely agree on the free weights issue.

How do I find out what my heart rate needs to be to burn fat? Is there a book or rule or website?

KE - the basic rule is your max heart = 220 - your age (you can use your resting HR and a different equation to get something a bit more accurate, but this way works well enough).

60-65% of max HR is "ideal" fat burning, 80-85% of max HR is "ideal" cardio. So, for instance, my fat burning goal is usually 127 (so I try to do a lot my weight lifting/calisthenics stuff around 125-135 range) and my cardio rate is 156 (which is where I usually try to hold my heart rate for an average long-distance run).

I love working out. It's the diet part of the fitness equation I struggle with, because I also love food. Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 29, 200911:59 AM:

quote:“The 22.6% free fall in global cargo is unprecedented and shocking. There is no clearer description of the slowdown in world trade. Even in September 2001, when much of the global fleet was grounded, the decline was only 13.9%,” said Giovanni Bisignani, IATA’s Director General and CEO.” Air cargo carries 35% of the value of goods traded internationally.

Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 29, 200906:08 PM:

gee. is that what happens when nobody has any currency left to pay for all the products that were made, and that are still needed?
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 29, 200908:03 PM:

Munga, where do you find this stuff?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 29, 200908:13 PM:

I am a font of fun.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 30, 200909:38 AM:

Does Doctor Who not have sex? No wonder he is a lonely God. I mean; is Rose supposed to go her whole life without sex?

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 30, 200910:28 AM:

Stacy makes this corn with bacon bits and bell peppers and stuff that is just out of this world. She made Steak, the corn stuff, and garlic potatoes the other day because she is starting a diet. Now our fridge is full of fruits and vegetables. But man that was one superb meal.

Now of course I'm suffering through "her" diet (due to the "picture incident"). Oh well. The things we do for love. The things we do for love.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 30, 200910:31 AM:

Oh, and the "recession" seems to have skipped Texas. As a matter of fact; now that things are slow the petrochemical plants are taking the downtime to do maintenance and refit their plants and I am making a killing. Turns out my boss had personal issues with corporate and we are even hiring more sales people, among other positions. I'm still worried, but "there is a time to reap", right? So now I'm "sowing and reaping".

KE
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on January 30, 200904:21 PM:

I'm actually doing better now than I have almost ever done, too, knock on wood.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on January 30, 200905:54 PM:

I hope it lasts for you both. So far, we're hanging on up here in northern VA, but there are signs all around me that things are going to get worse before they get better -- including a pay freeze for teachers. Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 30, 200907:14 PM:

I'm waiting with bated breath for my sister-in-law to ask to stay with us. The husband keeps taking jobs as a car salesman. (Not a good time to start out as a car salesman.) Luckily my wife fights with her sister over the phone once or twice a week so it's not like she's aching to be near us.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 30, 200907:16 PM:

do they have kids?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on January 30, 200907:21 PM:

They have three kids at close to the same ages as my three kids (not counting their 5 step kids who stay with their mother most of the time).

Thing is, it's at least conceivable that we could all fit in our house. It's less ridiculous than if they tried to move in with the grandparents. (It's even less ridiculous than the apartment they used to live in while the husband was working at my employer based on my recommendation before having a rancid "HR issue" and being forced to quit.)

But it would drive me insane. Esp. since this husband is a layabout and a mooch.

Plus we're only one missing paycheck away from homelessness ourselves, and having more people in the house who don't have any money means food bill doubles and all utilities will go up at least by some amount.

I'd offer to take the kids, and not them. Sounds mean but you can't offer what you can't actually do. The help would be of the "Here you go, we'll help on the childcare and babies while you go out and really really work on getting your feet back on the ground" kind. and.... Make you get foodstamps, health insurance and custody, which would be based on their lower income, not yours. I can send you those papers, if you'd like.

I'll let you know if it comes to that. It probably won't. This guy can find some kind of work; he just seems to like *not working* on a sales lot. So can she. They just have to run out of mooch options first.

They have other options for help depending on who they ask. Now that I'm thinking about it rather than just dreading it, I think you're right: we'd offer to give the kids a place, if it came to that.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on January 30, 200907:38 PM:

I will never forget it you know, I had gone to the grocery store for some odds and ends. I looked around for a suitable looking bagboy to help me into the parking lot with my purchases. On the way into the parking lot I am ashamed to tell you all that I was over come with an attack of passion....and bad taste. I grabbed the bagboy. I said "Young man, I have an itchy booty." He said "Sorry lady, I don't know one Japanese car from another."
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 31, 200910:04 AM:

quote:Police: Fleeing Bank Robber Scared North Carolina Woman to DeathThursday, January 29, 2009 RALEIGH, N.C. — Larry Whitfield was on foot, his getaway car wrecked, his rookie attempt at robbing a bank thwarted by a set of locked doors, according to detectives. Looking for a place to hide, police say, he found himself inside the home of a frightened old woman.

There's no evidence Whitfield ever touched 79-year-old Mary Parnell. Authorities say he even told the grandmother of five he didn't want to hurt her, directing her to sit in a chair in her bedroom. But investigators have no doubt he terrified her so much that she died of a heart attack.

Now Whitfield, a 20-year-old with no prior criminal record, is charged with first-degree murder, a rare defendant accused of literally scaring a person to death.

"He could've avoided all this by turning himself in, and life would've went on for Mrs. Parnell," said Capt. Calvin Shaw of the Gaston County Police Department, which handled the investigation.

Under a legal concept known as the felony murder rule, it's not uncommon for prosecutors to bring a murder charge against a defendant who doesn't intentionally harm a victim. The rule exists in some form in every state and lets authorities bring murder charges whenever someone dies during a crime such as burglary, rape, or kidnapping.

A) I'm not suggesting that she died of fright because he was black (and she was an old white woman that had grown up in a racist era when blacks had been demonized) and B) Should he really be charged with murder for "scaring her to death"? Involuntary manslaughter and bank robbery seem enough to me. But then it wasn't my grandma either.

KE

News from Texas:

quote:Transportation officials in Texas are scrambling to prevent hackers from changing messages on digital road signs after one sign in Austin was altered to read, "Zombies Ahead."

Chris Lippincott, director of media relations for the Texas Department of Transportation, confirmed that a portable traffic sign at Lamar Boulevard and West 15th Street, near the University of Texas at Austin, was hacked into during the early hours of Jan. 19.

"It was clever, kind of cute, but not what it was intended for," said Lippincott, who saw the sign during his morning commute. "Those signs are deployed for a reason — to improve traffic conditions, let folks know there's a road closure."

"It's sort of amusing, but not at all helpful," he told FOXNews.com.

God bless Texas!

Edited to add: Don't miss Ken's joke on the bottom of the previous page.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 31, 200912:41 PM:

I'm fixin to watch "Bangkok Dangerous" on pay per view. I have low expectations, but I like Nick Cage/Coppola.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on January 31, 200901:01 PM:

Stacy just put her big sunglasses on Jake's black Lab and I took a picture with my Blackberry. He looks like Huggy Bear from "Starsky and Hutch", but cuter. (He just left them there. Goofy dog.) If I can figure out how I'll post the pic.

I used to have the American flag as my screensaver, but that pic is so cute I changed it to our Lab/Huggy Bear for now.

So, I just searched and Jesse hasn't posted since November 5th. I guess he was serious. That sucks.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 01, 200902:55 PM:

"I'm Not Here" a biography about Bob Dylan. Anybody see this? Somebody explain it to me, please? Apparently I was not high enough when I watched it. I'll try again later, but I could use any clarification I can get.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 01, 200903:05 PM:

Interesting, to me, Christian Bale and Heath Ledger were in it. It was released in 2007 so I would assume just before "Batman", Ledgers last movie.

Besides Ledger and Bale it also has Richard Gere, David Cross, and a ton of other "stars". It is one trippy movie.

Bob Dylan refuses to concur that he is the "voice of his generation". Wonder who is the voice of our generation?

KE
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 01, 200909:05 PM:

Actually, Ledger is in another movie that is coming out/came out already, I do believe.

I like all the classes I'm taking this semester a lot. But, my African Politics professor is an idiot. Course material looks really interesting, but the dude spent the first 2 hours of class rambling about social inequality being the cause of all the problems in the world. And don't get me wrong, I don't have any particular problem with him saying that or anything else. But I literally just summed up 2 hours of class with that last sentence. He didn't even go into depth. I have no idea what the guy is doing at a University. He obviously thought he was super clever to be a Marxist advocate.

He even misused words and phrases. I've had plenty of professors that bored me half to sleep, but never one that was so frustratingly stupid. Maybe he was high and it will get better when he shows up sober?
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 01, 200909:22 PM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Wonder who is the voice of our generation?

KE, where do you draw the lines around your generation? Who gets to decide when generations start and end? And, is there anyway that when we divide up generations, I can be in a different one that the kids 5 years younger than me who've been texting rather than speaking since their early teenage years?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 02, 200902:31 PM:

For my generation, I would say David Horowitz. My gen is the anti-peace-priority crowd.
Posted by Athelstan (Member # 2566) on February 03, 200909:54 AM:

I saw a BBC programme, last night, that claimed that of the fifty tax havens around the world eighteen are British Protectorates and therefore have God Save The Queen as their National Anthem. Who said the British Empire was dead and not just something to appear in forthcoming Total War games. This anthem was also sung at President Obama’s Inauguration but unfortunately they got the words wrong. I sure nobody noticed so he wont have to do it again.

What's the deal with Magic Johnson? Either A) He's been as blessed with miraculous health just as he was blessed with amazying stature and talented, which doesn't seem fair, or B) There is a cure for HIV or to keep HIV from becoming AIDS if you have enough money?

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 03, 200911:27 AM:

I've heard that HIV treatments are getting pretty good at this point. Wikipedia says life expectancy post-infection can be 30+ years (if treatment is started on time and patient adheres to regimen. Of course no one has been on current regimens for 30 years so it's a theoretical number)

It is expensive but I think even 3rd string NBA players can afford it. It looks like the costs are similar to a house payment.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on February 03, 200901:35 PM:

quote:Originally posted by Athelstan: I saw a BBC programme, last night, that claimed that of the fifty tax havens around the world eighteen are British Protectorates and therefore have God Save The Queen as their National Anthem. Who said the British Empire was dead and not just something to appear in forthcoming Total War games. This anthem was also sung at President Obama’s Inauguration but unfortunately they got the words wrong. I sure nobody noticed so he wont have to do it again.

quote:One man has targeted tax haven abuse in the Caymans - and his name is Barack Obama. So change for the world's tax havens seems on the way - whether the leaders of the micro-states like it or not.

Interesting. Had not even heard about that.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 03, 200908:34 PM:

quote:Originally posted by Clark: KE, where do you draw the lines around your generation? Who gets to decide when generations start and end? And, is there anyway that when we divide up generations, I can be in a different one that the kids 5 years younger than me who've been texting rather than speaking since their early teenage years?

You know, I think generations are defined after the fact when there are defining moments to mark the beginning and end. Such as the Baby Boom.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 03, 200908:35 PM:

Alas, only your husband and not me, alas, but such is matrimony.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 04, 200906:59 PM:

For Ev:

THIS IS WHAT JEFF FOXWORTHY HAS TO SAY ABOUT LIVING IN WASHINGTON STATE:>>>>>> If someone in a Home Depot store offers you assistance and they don't>> work there, you live in Washington.>>>> If you've worn shorts and a parka at the same time, you live in>> Washington.>>>> If you've had a lengthy telephone conversation with someone who dialed>> the wrong number, you live in Washington.>>>> If you measure distance in hours, you live in Washington.>>>> If you know several people who have hit a deer more than once, you live>> in Washington.>>>> If you have switched from 'heat' to 'A/C' and back again in the same>> day, you live in Washington.>>>> If you install security lights on your house and garage but leave both>> doors unlocked, you live in Washington.>>>> If you can drive 75 mph through 2 feet of snow during a raging blizzard>> without flinching, you live in Central, Southern or Eastern Washington.>>>> If you design your kid's Halloween costume to fit over 8 layers of>> clothes, you live in Washington.>>>> If the speed limit on the highway is 55 mph -- you're going 80, and>> everyone is still passing you, you live in Washington.>>>> If driving is better in the winter because th e potholes are filled with>> snow and ice, you live in Washington.>>>> If you know all 4 seasons: almost winter, winter, still winter, and road>> construction, you live in Washington.>>>> If you actually understand these jokes and forward them to all your>> WASHINGTON friends, you live or have lived in Washington.

Sorry about the >>s.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 04, 200907:21 PM:

I saw the exact same list for Utah. I'm guessing you could toss in Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, and a dozen other states too.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 05, 200907:18 PM:

guys, I'm totally sick.

This gives me a rare opportunity- time to do something that isn't due because everyone's kicked my germs out of play.

My girlfriend recently graduated college. A friend got her a neat wallet (clutch?) from etsy.com for graduation. While the seller from whom the wallet was purchased has since dropped off the face of the earth, but my girlfriend thought that etsy was so cool that she set up a site here.

Shameless plug - but a pretty neat idea, too.

Also - does anyone play Enemy Territory: Quake Wars? I've heard good things about it.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 06, 200911:09 AM:

My little sisters teeth are falling out as a consequence of her days as a meth addict.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 06, 200911:45 AM:

You seen some woe, TommySam.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 06, 200911:48 AM:

"Problem? I'm only working at Sick-Level.

Would anyone like to help me edit this sucker?

Slouching Toward Mexico"

A major job but I'll tackle it if you like.I think it wouldn't take much practice for a bright'un like you to master turning econ-speak into people-speak.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 06, 200912:35 PM:

OK. But you're gonna hate me when it's over... or adore me. I am ruthless but benevolent. I'll start probably tonight. I will ask a ton of questions.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 06, 200901:13 PM:

Just click my name and you'll find an email function to reach me. If you can;t send me nekkid pitchers, at least send me a pitcher of your dog.

I don't know which I love more: women or dogs (although in very different ways). But both women and dogs agree I give great backrub.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 06, 200901:14 PM:

bless you, I need another set of eyes. My husband can't write very well and no one at work has the compassion on the masses (they've just lost patience a long time ago.... people think the dumbest things make sense and the guys counting beans can't stand to watch it..... I know one guy who just walks out of the room, he can't stand it) to try to talk to them. It would be great to have something reasonsable. I'm going to re-work the last two pages a bit today if I can find time, and if you are working on the first few, we should coordinate pretty well.
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on February 06, 200902:20 PM:

I skimmed the paper and was wondering who the intended audience was?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 06, 200902:27 PM:

general humanity. Like an op-ed. But I have a very big problem speaking human when I go into finance.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 06, 200903:49 PM:

Tell me 'bout it. We gon' fix dat. You will hate me just in time to love me when next la lune descende.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 06, 200907:56 PM:

Argh me mateys.

I got one thing left to do this week before I go home.

I'm gonna do it. Right this minute. Right.....NOW!

Kick me if I don't.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 06, 200908:07 PM:

tommy, I always picture the college student crowd as dirt poor (projection) so how are your own teeth?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 06, 200908:27 PM:

I did it.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 06, 200908:47 PM:

"tommy, I always picture the college student crowd as dirt poor (projection) so how are your own teeth? "

Fine. Didn't start brushing my teeth until I was in high school, so the enamel is spotty. But I think better than they used to be. My little tummy hurts though Wode duzi teng sile! Uggghhhh
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 06, 200908:55 PM:

quote:Originally posted by scifibum: I did it.

rats.

good for you
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 09, 200907:03 PM:

How's a man supposed to concentrate at a school filled with 25+K girls wearing skin tight leggings, hip hugging jeans, push up bras, and low cut shirts? Or some remarkable combination of these and other things? Its nice sometimes, but you can't really appreciate it without looking like a creeper (which I'm not above, all the time.)

KE, never visit your sons at college. You can't get a boner around here without it hitting some girl who would make one of the streetwalkers in my neighborhood blush.

Have some modesty, ladies. I don't walk around with pants that mold perfectly over my nuts
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on February 09, 200907:37 PM:

quote:Originally posted by TommySama: Have some modesty, ladies. I don't walk around with pants that mold perfectly over my nuts

Great line, it's been a while since I've laughed that hard at something on ornery.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 09, 200907:39 PM:

quote:I don't walk around with pants that mold perfectly over my nuts

Yeah, but you would if it got you free drinks, right?

I know the feeling. Just realize that those of us working in offices filled with dowdy and dour matrons would trade places with you in a second.

quote:Originally posted by TommySama: How's a man supposed to concentrate at a school filled with 25+K girls wearing skin tight leggings, hip hugging jeans, push up bras, and low cut shirts? Or some remarkable combination of these and other things? Its nice sometimes, but you can't really appreciate it without looking like a creeper (which I'm not above, all the time.)

It's true. In class today, I could only look to the right, b/c to the left afforded me the view of a very ample cleavage with potential spillage right out of the shirt. It wasn't even very attractive (and I do have the capacity to admire an attractive female body). I have no idea how 16 year old boys handle it.
Posted by elk (Member # 6369) on February 09, 200908:51 PM:

Just when I thought TV programmes couldn’t get any stranger than Undercover Princes along comes Paris Hilton’s British Best Friend , but I suppose their clones will be appearing on American TV’s soon.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 10, 200905:51 PM:

Just when life is getting too serious to breathe, I am reminded that some people enjoy lives that never involve a rational or even linear thought.

..... how long can the wealthy retain that, with those brains?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on February 10, 200907:09 PM:

Takes about 3 generations of wealth to degrade to 50% of what it was.
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on February 10, 200909:42 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga: ..... how long can the wealthy retain that, with those brains?

At least she tries to "inject liquidity" where ever she goes.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 10, 200910:29 PM:

bless her
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 10, 200910:36 PM:

hey ricky, must report your verb is still kicking. you never know where it might land. this particular colorful fellow likes to sprinkle even his most august writings with humor-for-those-in-the-know and he might play with it yet.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 1070) on February 10, 200911:48 PM:

quote:Originally posted by yossarian22c:

quote:Originally posted by munga: ..... how long can the wealthy retain that, with those brains?

At least she tries to "inject liquidity" where ever she goes.

Are you sure you don't have that backwards?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 11, 200912:05 AM:

It seems that the only thing that would be worse than thinking about how Paris Hilton imagines that all the ground she walks on is her runway, is to observe this out-loud, so that I force everyone else to think about how little that twit thinks about, like a contagion.... and inverse-borg suction of all thought from circulation (would it inflate?)

That's not quite fair, but more tolerable than the dud that called me a misogynist on Open Salon... Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on February 11, 200911:05 AM:

quote:Originally posted by TommySama:Have some modesty, ladies. I don't walk around with pants that mold perfectly over my nuts

Of course, for obvious reasons pants that mold perfectly over the body are less eye-catching on girls than on guys.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 11, 200911:32 AM:

I think you mean eye-mangling.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 11, 200911:47 AM:

Yeah, omega, different. Girls with C cups wearing tight form fitting t shirts will distract me way more than a guy wearing a revealing leotard will distract you. To you it is funny - to me it is a desperate matter of survival of the fittest. Heart races, blood pressure up, adrenaline, pants feel funny... Man girls are hot
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 12, 200907:26 PM:

Ok. I just moved a small mountain. All I did, was file 14 FERC documents simultaneously to serve as wholesale PPAs for new renewable energy facilties.

quote: PRESIDENT'S LIST RICARDO ROMO PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT SAN ANTONIO WISHES TO CONGRATULATE JOHN L. MYERS FOR MAKING THE PRESIDENT'S LIST, IN RECOGNITION OF OUTSTANDING SCHOLARSHIP FOR ACHIEVING A 4.0 GRADE POINT AVERAGE WHILE REGISTERED AS A FULL TIME STUDENT DURING THE FALL 2008 SEMESTER

We need a beaming with PRIDE emoticon. I just got this in the mail from Little John's college.

(And I'm kicking ass at work to send him to UT next semester.) My boy is going places. I like to think he is what I would have been if I had had decent parents. (I love my mom and dad but back then they were pretty messed up.)

quote:Originally posted by TommySama:Have some modesty, ladies. I don't walk around with pants that mold perfectly over my nuts

Of course, for obvious reasons pants that mold perfectly over the body are less eye-catching on girls than on guys.

Gotta strongly disagree with you there Omega. On a guy it just looks wrong. But (no pun intended) on a girl it looks like sex-on-a-stick in a couple of different ways. And I don't know what some people have against camels.

On a completely different note; man did Hannity (the anti-Christs favorite talk show host) really go after Blago. Is Blago a Dem? If not I have to give dickhead credit.

Based on my experience with government forms for mundane things like personal tax returns, I bet that's a bigger achievement than I can quite grasp.

KE, your kid impresses me. I was getting straight A grades when I graduated from high school, but college kicked my ass. I'm still working on my undergrad 13 years later. (not continuously though)
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 12, 200911:15 PM:

*beams* thank you, scifi. Yes, it was a magnum opus considering I turned that around in 2 days. The Kinkos bill for printing alone was 75 bucks.

Props, Munga. Woohoo. I have no idea what you did, but I salute you nonetheless. Posted by elk (Member # 6369) on February 13, 200912:45 AM:

75 bucks is impressive. Was that exclusively copies? I assume not, but how much do they charge for binding now?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 13, 200902:27 AM:

no binding but staples

I'm in "birthing mode" again--- working on apps for the tax credit allocations.... which I hope I don't even have to print in hard copy but who knows
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 1217) on February 13, 200904:05 AM:

Quick question... anyone know when or why Pete moved to the UK?
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on February 13, 200906:25 AM:

Who says he did?
Posted by elk (Member # 6369) on February 13, 200911:22 AM:

quote:Originally posted by munga: no binding but staples

I'm in "birthing mode" again--- working on apps for the tax credit allocations.... which I hope I don't even have to print in hard copy but who knows

I'm even more impressed. It almost makes me want to print off the instructions for cranium and maybe chess strategies, go to kinkos, and make a whole bunch of copies just so that I can feel important without doing the volume of the work that you did.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 14, 200902:34 AM:

oh, but the real thrill is the FedEX, sending things next day with signature required to a Washington DC zip code and the word "Federal" on it.

Have y'all ever heard the comedian Stephen Lynch? He plays a guitar and sings hilarious songs. My favorite is about Jesus's brother "Craig Christ". You gotta check him out.

I'll link to some of his stuff later. Peace out.

KE
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 15, 200908:44 AM:

KE, have you read Christopher Moore's book, Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal? You really must!
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 15, 200908:45 AM:

And no, unless he's the guy who does those great "someone stole my credit" commercials, I've never seen Stephen Lynch.
Posted by Individual Persona (Member # 6105) on February 15, 200901:20 PM:

Stephen Lynch has my full endorsement...listen to his song called "Beelz", among my other favorites are "Superhero" and "Classic Rock Song".

And a friend just the other day loaned me The Gospel According to Biff. I had read two of his other books prior to, Bloodsucking Fiends and You Suck, and this author has my endorsement as well. If you like Douglas Adams, you will like Christopher Moore
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on February 15, 200901:20 PM:

cperry, I always knew I liked you! Isn't that the funniest book ever? I had it translated when I was editor of a historical fiction series. I laughed on 4th and 5th readings.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 15, 200904:00 PM:

I let a student borrow it and then his dad read it; I wondered for a few weeks my job was gone, but apparently his dad liked it too! I like You Suck and ... oh, the title escapes me. i've only read 3 of Moore's books, but Biff is my favorite, for certain. It plays along the lines of Job: A Comedy of Justice (Heinlein) with a LOT more humor.

Thanks, Ricky. (For some reason, I'm preening right now.)

You're right, though. It is LOL funny, reading after reading.

Did you classify it as historical fiction? Now that's funny, too!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 15, 200909:04 PM:

I haven't read him but I love Douglas Adams. Stacy bought me a leather bound copy of all his books once, but someone stole it. I'll look for Christopher Moore. I also loved Heinlein's "Job". I've read it five times.

KE
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on February 16, 200912:56 AM:

My first edition Job burned as well as my omnibus leather bound edition of Douglas Adams.

Guy has my sense of humor. People who know me and have read Adams always tell me that. One of the funniest and yet most descriptive lines ever written...

The Vogon ship hung in the air exactly the way gold bricks don't.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 16, 200908:13 AM:

Argh, Redskullvw. It's a blessing to survive a fire, but oh ... the lingering pain of treasures lost. I'm so sorry.

My six year old just walked in and with great gravity told me, "I am an Ingolish-speaking boy."
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 16, 200908:50 PM:

Did you slap him and shout, "ENGLISH, SPEAK ENGLISH!"?
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 16, 200909:31 PM:

Dude, I just saw the preview to "X-Men Origines: Wolverine". This is one of the coolest things ever. I cannot wait. They even told us Wolverines first name. I've been waiting over thirty years to find that out.

I need help. Can anyone come up with a list of American car shows between September 1991 and September 1992 exactly? And if you can come up with only those that were participated in by Volkswagen of America, Audi USA or Porsche AG?

I am looking for the types of car shows like Chicago and Detroit...ie big shows where the manufacturers present current, new, prospective, and concept cars to the automotive journalist world.

It is knida important to me and I have far less knowledge these days about American auto shows than I did back then when I still went to them.

Long store short my car was at those shows originally and I am tryoing to track down the original import agent.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 16, 200910:49 PM:

quote:Originally posted by TommySama: Did you slap him and shout, "ENGLISH, SPEAK ENGLISH!"?

I might have, but he followed up that with another good one, "Mom, I think God should make poop ghost out of us, imbissible."

I could only agree. no diapers and no toilets needed, then.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 16, 200911:17 PM:

I was a pagan god too until I lost my missile.
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on February 16, 200911:32 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga:So, six year old follows up this up with a marriage proposal, followed by the observation that he believes that all the power in the House really comes from the sun, even if we think it doesn't.

And he would be almost completely correct. Other than nuclear and some geothermal energy power for everything else originated in the sun.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 16, 200911:33 PM:

why yess, yoss, and after he'd buttered me all up I was sure to tell him how right he was.
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on February 16, 200911:42 PM:

Did he come up with that on his own or has he heard it around the house or from a teacher or something? Either way I'm impressed.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 16, 200911:43 PM:

all on his own
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 17, 200912:44 AM:

Sorry, Redskull. No clue on that one for you.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 17, 200912:48 AM:

Something else about Moore's Gospel Accding to Biff: It's so completely plausible. I was totally buying it while I also laughed my head off.

(Okay, lots is NOT plausible. But enough is to make it really, really work.)
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 17, 200907:23 PM:

I was worried about my job due to the recession and the fact that we had a "Sales Consultant" coming in to improve our profit margin and fill in as Sales Manager for the next six months (Since our old Manager took a position with another company.)

However, during the meeting today I was brilliant and being the only salesman in the company with experience selling to CEO's and presidents of companies at the corporate level I was promoted to VP of Corporate Sales. Which means I will be calling exclusively on personnel in corporate headquarters rather than at the plant level, and attempting to negotiate contracts and agreements between my company and our customers.

The other salesmen are great guys, but they are good'ol boy redneck FFA (Future Farmers of America) kind of guys that probably don't own a suit and spend their free time dipping tobacco, drinking beer, and fishing or hunting. (Not that there is anything wrong with any of that, but they would not be comfortable in a suit and tie calling on CEO's of multi-million dollar companies, which I have done in the past.)

So, I went from being the last guy hired and so probably the first guy fired, if they did start laying people off, to a valuable position that nobody else can fill due to certain qualities and experience I have developed over the years.

All the job books say you should find some way to differentiate yourself from the pack in order to keep your job in hard times and it looks as if I've inadvertently done just that.

Of course I will be getting a raise and certain other perks commiserate with my new position. The only drawback is that I will have to travel more than I have in the past,and probably overseas since many companies such as BP British Petroleum and Shell Petroleum (Sweden? Norway? I guess I better find out. ) have their headquarters across the pond. But with Little John in college and Jake (16) spending most of his time with his friends, and hopefully getting ready for college, I don't think I will be quite as homesick as I used to be. Of course I miss Stacy when I'm gone for the day at work here in Houston, but they do say absence makes the heart grow fonder. I don't see how I could be any fonder of her, but I know I will miss her more and perhaps it will force us to make the most of the time when we are together. Making an effort to make it quality time.

But, enough bragging. If any of you have advice on corporate contract negotiations or anything that might help me with my new position, as always, I am open to any and all advice and suggestions. And as always I will be very grateful. Thank you.

Knight T. Ender IV, esquire (Guess what the "T" stands for.)

PS, I do feel a little guilty that things are going so well for me when so many Americans, who work just as hard as I have been are hurting. Hopefully things will turn around for the whole country soon. And I have been busting my butt since taking this job. Having a son in college is a great motivator.

Crane is a huge company and we do a lot of different things in the Energy field, but here in Texas we focus mostly on issues related to valves, actuators, and process control products and Services for the petrochemical and refining industries.

I'm serious about asking for advice. I very much want to do well at this position. Thanks.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 17, 200908:08 PM:

aaaaaah, KE.

You are getting the benefit of the technology war. Everyone is trying to retro-fit their plants to be more environmentally compliant so that renewables don't put them in the cold, being mostly emissions free. They realize that the renewables are really going to have access to capital and so they they are in a massive spring cleaning/upgrade mode.

I have another buddy who is with Zeppelin/catapillar there in Houston, and they to the conveyors of every kind, including the more interesting stuff, micro and nitrogen. He's one busy bee these days.

I predict you will be doing very well. I submit that you might want to court the retro-fitting frenzy directly. I have no trouble with coal spending billions of their profits while trying to compete with us, and making you and your families a great income.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 17, 200908:31 PM:

Oh, I've got some advice, KE, but you probably already know it.

I do a lot of collecting of bids myself, and I have a real problem getting bids approved when the provider of the part is not capable of quickly providing me with a warranty that is consistent with the funding requirements. For instance, when financing using USDA RUS program, the total AFE for the plant must include cost of not just the parts to begin, but also all the parts needed per expected maintenance per ten years, the term of the debt paper, while most commercial banks need just three years. So, the suppliers have to guess what is going to break (MTBF, I'm sure you know that terminology) and then, stand behind it for ten years. That is a big commitment. So, posting your MTBF, online (accessible in the middle of the night when they are scurrying) per part is really really really important to the large-part suppliers' ability to call his own team together and re-submit this bid to me according to my paper's requirements.

this is not a good day to pretend I don't exist, if you value your houseplants.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 18, 200909:02 AM:

I bought my wife a potted hydrangea (blue/violet) yesterday. Valentine's Day. I will NOT deliver sincere sentiment according to Judeo-Xtian schedule.

My wife's peri-menopausal, had had two uterine scrapings and one laser ablasion. She don't throw good but she catches well and hands 'em off to me for counter-fire.

I, Klish am armed: I am married for 21 years to a woman done been through all that. And I bought her flowers. And go now to rub her back as a slow wakeup.

Moral: don't mess with a married man's houseplants. Throw your own and aim away from his.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 18, 200909:14 AM:

Thanks Munga. I just got out of the one on one meeting with the consultant and I still think this is going to be a great opportunity. And please don't assume I know anything. Even if I already know some of the things y'all tell me it can't hurt to read it again.

Oh, and I wasn't ignoring you. I just knew I was going to be here really early this morning so I went to bed at like 8 o'clock last night.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 18, 200911:18 AM:

KE- cool.

KL- innnnteresting. I have such a tenuous connection to decorations and find the living ones to be extra-onerous and never thought of them as assets that people wouldn't want destroyed, if they had a choice to do so and not look like communists. I'll avoid the houseplants. Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 18, 200911:34 AM:

Along with a hairy palm I have a green thumb.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 18, 200912:03 PM:

Congrats KE. Shell is headquartered in the Netherlands. Great place! You will have some great trips! I hope you get to go to see Total (Paris), AGIP (Milan), Petronas (KL), etc.

I work for BP and get to go to London a couple of times a year. Travel is great if taken in moderation...
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 18, 200906:31 PM:

KE, T = Tiberius?

Congrats. Nice news. A believer would think that all of this was part of a grand plan. Since that kind of thinking doesn't work for you, just chalk it up to being smart enough to make connections from one experience to another.

My tips (based only on my four years in management as opposed to in the classroom): * Always tell the truth, even if it hurts. (I'm sure in sales this might be tricky, but I still think it holds.)* Be a problem-solver, not a problem-pointer-outer (yeah, I couldn't think of a better way to say that and preserve the parallel structure).* Don't be afraid to seek for outside-the-box (sorry for the cliche) solutions to previously alluded to problems. * (You're already doing this) Never fear asking for help; just ask the right person.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 18, 200906:32 PM:

quote:Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:My wife's peri-menopausal, had had two uterine scrapings and one laser ablasion. She don't throw good but she catches well and hands 'em off to me for counter-fire.

My sympathies to your wife; I hope she gets there quickly.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 18, 200906:55 PM:

She's denying it to the bitter end. By the time she acknowledges, she'll be geriatric, not menopausal.

I see this tactic a lot.

In men, it's the footlong combover that one day becomes a toupee.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 18, 200907:42 PM:

I suppose someone's already suggested hormone therapy.

I've decided I will have hormone therapy and a voluntary hysterectomy. Wouldn't that be perfect? I mean, at that point it is a dead organ (which will just cause trouble) and why not give myself the FUN of the hormones (and the better metabolism) til the end?

My wife has between 20 and 30 years before she probably has to worry about menopause.

Unless like most of her family she has a hysterectomy by age 35. If she has to get one, I hope they dig out ALL the hysteria. Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on February 18, 200910:08 PM:

I heard something a week or two ago on NPR about the correlation between hormone therapy for women and cancer rates. (Breast cancer, I think.) I'm fuzzy on the details, but I seem to recall that the general idea was that high doses of hormones had a real correlation to higher cancer rates, whereas lower doses were much safer. Something to at least look at.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 18, 200910:20 PM:

Yeah, the news has been full of stories about hormone replacement therapy. Most docs now resist HRT unless there's some real suffering going on.

I'm feeling lucky: my mom and both grandmothers had hysterectomies in their early 40s. So far, I don't seem to be having any signs that this will happen to me. (yay) Of course, I had a physical last week, and I still haven't heard the report results. Still ... no obvious signs of problems = no HRT for me. Breast cancer in the family -- don't wanna go there, if I can avoid it!
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 19, 200912:21 AM:

I can't understanding wanting to keep that bugger after I'm done with it. I'm not any more attached to useless flesh than I am to my out-grown toenails. Honestly, it just causes trouble.

I love my parts but it is good to recognize that this facility may have parts that senesce at various rates and why would I force the rest of the body to deal with that which has expired if I can upgrade to better performance and health?
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 19, 200907:46 AM:

Yeah, but I'm not into removing things if they don't have to be removed. We gots lots of parts that we don't need.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 19, 200911:56 AM:

When we can grow/implant a viable after-uterine space-filler/hormone-regulator, then a hysterectomy seems the logical choice. Until then, it's the sometimes regrettably necessary choice.

We await the genetic fabrication of the after-uterus.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 19, 200901:21 PM:

were I your wife-creature, I'd have lobbied hard for a complete solution (surgery) as she had the justification for it.

She didn't want that. Anyway, problem's all solved now. She has worse problems with other things falling apart: she's had two cervical vertebral fusions and goes in this Monday for a shoulder 'slap tear' repair.

And she's married to me, and no knife can separate us.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 19, 200901:27 PM:

Anyway, I've let the novel fester these past 4-5 days enough that I'm scared to start again. As should be. So, off I go.
Posted by Lina Inverse (Member # 6361) on February 19, 200904:13 PM:

Good luck! I've pretty much given up on writing anything longer than 10,000 words.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 19, 200905:17 PM:

Okay, I'm in the right lane and there is another truck in the right lane, we are at the front of the line at a traffic light. In my lane ahead of us past the light is a truck and trailer going really slow. So when our light turns green I accelerate so I can change lanes, get around it and then get back in my lane. I didn't burn rubber or accelerate like a bat out of hell just a little faster than usual. When the truck in the left lane sees what I'm doing he guns it in an attempt to cut me off from changing lanes. But he is too late and I goose it and change lanes in front of him. By not as much room as I would have if he hadn't been an ******* and tried to keep me from passing the slow moving vehicle. (If I'd waited for him to pass originally I would have been waiting for a long time until all fifteen cars behind him cleared the lane.

Then after I clear the slow moving vehicle I switch back to my lane giving him a clear lane. He takes out his wallet opens it and puts it on his dash, displaying a gold badge, and then gets on the phone. But he never changes lanes and gets behind me. I, shoot the finger at him. **** him. I don't care if he is a cop, he is an *******. a half mile later I change lanes in front of him and pull into a left turn lane to go to my subdivision (half hoping he would follow me and instigate a fight.) But he stays on the phone and looks at me as he passes (presumably calling in my plates or just to scare me. I mouth to him that he is an ******* and make my turn. I never hear anything else about it even though the phone number to my work is on the side of my truck.

Why do people do **** like that? If someone is going faster than me I have no problem letting them pass. And I go out of my way to let people over or in when traffic is bad. Karma. I just don't get it. And I can't believe he was a cop cop or being such an ******* he would have attempted to pull me over even in his civilian car.

If it ever comes up, tell your side of the story and ask what the listener would have done, and wait and listen. No one will want to look that dumb.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 19, 200911:05 PM:

So, he's worried you'll pull in front and slow down (which crappy drivers do), so he tries to defend his lane "turf." But b/c he doesn't read your intention early enough, he can't defend, and then is embarrassed b/c you skunk him. B/c he has petty power, he uses it to save face.

I'm just amazed that we don't see more murders as a result of road rage. Or heart attacks.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 19, 200911:07 PM:

In other words, let it go.

(Easy for me to say. I fret over this kind of crap for days afterwards!)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 20, 200912:57 AM:

I'm guessing you handled it just right, KE. Let him know he was tangling with someone. He probably figured you had a gun.

You know cops: crazy. It's the job, I guess.

And now, like cp said, you laugh, tell God (in whom you don't believe) to get a life, breathe deep, close your eyes, and suck in all the love around you.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 20, 200902:10 AM:

The other day I was bragging about John making the Dean's List in College, and I usually say that though Jake doesn't make good grades like John he is a great kid. Very respectful and one of the happiest people you'll ever meet.

But today we got a letter saying he did so well on TAKS and Benchmark tests that they want him to be one of a "select group that travels around the country to Washington DC, Chicago, and New York representing his school. They call it the NLCS (National Leadership Conference Society). You could have knocked me over with a feather. I am even happier about this than I was about John's accomplishments. I expect that kind of thing from John, but Jake...

It is kind of like me and my sister. I was always in honors classes (trying to impress my parents) and she barely squeaked by. Then she moved to Austin went to UT and made the Dean's List her first year. It turns out she just wasn't asserting herself! (Jake's biggest problem with his grades is he misses a lot of school due to headaches from his accident when he was little.)

Which brings me to the best part. Jake is pumped, and he has vowed not to miss any more school and begin seriously concentrating on his grades.

I'm shocked at this news. But very very very happy. Personally I think it is genetics and good parenting. Seriously, if both my boys are happy and successful adults that are an attribute to our country I can die a happy man.

I'm so glad I have you guys to share this with. Thanks for being there.

KE
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on February 20, 200902:19 AM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Okay, I'm in the right lane and there is another truck in the right lane, we are at the front of the line at a traffic light. In my lane ahead of us past the light is a truck and trailer going really slow. So when our light turns green I accelerate so I can change lanes, get around it and then get back in my lane. I didn't burn rubber or accelerate like a bat out of hell just a little faster than usual. When the truck in the left lane sees what I'm doing he guns it in an attempt to cut me off from changing lanes. But he is too late and I goose it and change lanes in front of him. By not as much room as I would have if he hadn't been an ******* and tried to keep me from passing the slow moving vehicle. (If I'd waited for him to pass originally I would have been waiting for a long time until all fifteen cars behind him cleared the lane.

Then after I clear the slow moving vehicle I switch back to my lane giving him a clear lane. He takes out his wallet opens it and puts it on his dash, displaying a gold badge, and then gets on the phone. But he never changes lanes and gets behind me. I, shoot the finger at him. **** him. I don't care if he is a cop, he is an *******. a half mile later I change lanes in front of him and pull into a left turn lane to go to my subdivision (half hoping he would follow me and instigate a fight.) But he stays on the phone and looks at me as he passes (presumably calling in my plates or just to scare me. I mouth to him that he is an ******* and make my turn. I never hear anything else about it even though the phone number to my work is on the side of my truck.

Why do people do **** like that? If someone is going faster than me I have no problem letting them pass. And I go out of my way to let people over or in when traffic is bad. Karma. I just don't get it. And I can't believe he was a cop cop or being such an ******* he would have attempted to pull me over even in his civilian car.

What do y'all think?

KE

If you're serious about wanting a fight with a cop, then pull out your cell phone and hold it up with one hand as if you're taking a video clip of him. And put on a bumper sticker that says "smile, ***hole; you're on utube."

On the traffic thing; as I've gotten older I've really mellowed. I think it is more trouble weaving in and out of traffic to save five minutes than it is worth. Not to mention dangerous. So, nowadays I usually just get in the fastest lane possible turn on Sirius radio (which I love for the Comedy channels (really good stand-up in your car, brilliant) and great music. They have stations dedicated to every decade, plus stations dedicated to Elvis, and the Beatles.) and chill. But this was no stunt car move. It was just accelerating a little faster to get around the obstruction and then right back in my lane causing the guy no trouble at all. That is if he had been half-way decent about it. But no...

And I agree with CP and Ken. I don't know who said it but someone said: "My health is in the hands of every ******* I meet." And with my blood pressure I can't afford to let that happen so I have become much better at just letting it go. I mean; me being pissed at the guy and all upset after he is gone isn't going to hurt him one bit, but it can do a lot of damage to me physically and mentally. Not to mention my family relations if I bring that crap home. So I just let it go.

And even if I had been in the wrong this time, which I wasn't, people make mistakes. When that happens I usually wave, say I'm sorry, and try to make it up by doing a good deed somewhere down the road. Karma.

Anyway, I think flipping the ****er off was both stress-relieving and politically shrewd. Cop being nosy on off-hours thinks twice when someone flips him off after he's flashing his tin star.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 20, 200911:58 AM:

I'm waiting for someone to market a lapel-pinnable cellular minicam for just this kind of thing.

It should be named The Testicle.

Market slogan: Need some balls in dealing with abuse of authority? Get The Testicle, the little witness that can save your ass.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 20, 200901:02 PM:

quote:Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile: Anyway, I think flipping the ****er off was both stress-relieving and politically shrewd. Cop being nosy on off-hours thinks twice when someone flips him off after he's flashing his tin star.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I would think the type of cop that might give you a hard time for a legal traffic maneuver - the ones who are aggressive for the hell of it - would be more likely to go out of his way if you flip him off.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 20, 200901:27 PM:

We3ll, in KE's case, the guy was already acting like an aggressive in-pursuit off-duty type. IN such a case, it seems wise to let them know they don't have a patsy on their hands. The cop's behavior shows that he was acting out of petty horse**** not professional concerns, so the more directly counter-responsive one is, the more he needs to be justified in being an ass off-duty.

Cops KNOW, perhaps more than any of us, that they can get hurt (physically) for ****ing with the wrong joe, and thin blue line or not, that they can get in trouble for harassing innocent citizens. A cop going after someone for petty **** when not in uniform vehicle had better have a strong reason for it. KE making a simple acceleration to get a lane change is not such a reason, and the cop's driving behavior was the more questionable.

The Bird is a prime signifier that you've got an assertive citizen on your hands and should think twice about whether or not the situation at hand merits further instrusion.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on February 20, 200902:38 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga:

I can't understanding wanting to keep that bugger after I'm done with it. I'm not any more attached to useless flesh than I am to my out-grown toenails. Honestly, it just causes trouble.

I love my parts but it is good to recognize that this facility may have parts that senesce at various rates and why would I force the rest of the body to deal with that which has expired if I can upgrade to better performance and health?

As I guy, I wonder if I'd be sad if I found out I was sterile. I don't want to have kids, so being sterile would take a real load off my mind; but there's probably an instinct that would make me care.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 20, 200905:12 PM:

Omega, when the uterus stops working, ya be sterile.

Some girlie parts expire, and can't say that I'm going to fight that.

Imagine being 50 and pregnant.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 20, 200905:17 PM:

My guess is it depends on many different things.

For instance, while I am not particularly enamored of my genes (too many crazies in the pool), I do suffer occasional bouts of true sorrow at not having had the chance to bear a child. Usually they flare up when I'm around a bunch of pregnant women OR when a bunch of women are talking about childbirth, breast-feeding, etc. I suppose it is expected that women who do not give birth may be sad about it; some become desperately sad about it, while others may not note it at all.

But I know that my husband also has rare moments of heart-wrenching sadness (seriously, only momentarily) over the fact that we did not have biological kids. Of course, some of that may be a result of our adopted kids not quite fitting the mental model we could not help but have for the family we'd hoped to build with them.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 20, 200905:20 PM:

Even now, my move into menopause has given me "pause" to consider my eventual loss of reproductive ability, and it makes me sad -- on occasion -- even though I made the deliberate choice not to become pregnant (health reasons).
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 20, 200905:21 PM:

KE--

CONGRATULATIONS TO YOUR JAKE!!!

Parent to parent, I can relate that seeing your children overcome and realize their own worth and abilities is ... well.... words can't express that, huh.

I had an 9 year old who felt that he couldn't read, and was reluctant to even try. He had been late to speak and in a way was almost too visual-- he would sit there and clearly he was pondering stories because when we'd ask to understand what he was thinking it would gush out. Well, same boy is 11 now and is a fantastic reader and even writes very well and has been recognized by the teachers as having an extraordinary talent for expression and stories- last week was invited to repeat a poem he'd memorized (all on his own, not as an assignment, just for fun) to the next class over. I just see wheels turning and excitement in a new world that as a parent I could cry for joy about.

We bought a dachshund puppy when my wife realized her eggs were dying. He has been trained to be a spoiled little infant.

Alas, he reveres me not her cuz I am dah woman ub dah house. I sleep in a recliner, you know. With a 5-year old dachshund. Later on, our cat climbs and spends a few hours on my chest until I toss and turn enough she can't handle it. (You know how fussy cats are.)

But he still loves to snuggle wid his mommy on the weekends.

Get yourself a little doggie, the small kind you can lap and love.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 20, 200911:24 PM:

"Of course, some of that may be a result of our adopted kids not quite fitting the mental model we could not help but have for the family we'd hoped to build with them."

'Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come to me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.'

They will talk to you often when you're gone. If there's a heaven, whatever it may be, it is buoyed by the gratitude and love of children who realize later what gifts parents are.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 21, 200902:06 AM:

Thanks Munga. Your post really made me feel good. It's so great to see the confidence and pride well up in him. The cliche that you can do what you think you can do is so true. Especially for teenagers. And vice versa, if a kid gets it in his head that he's not smart, or handsome, or likable or whatever it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

1) Restore won't work when you want to restore to a volume smaller than the volume that was backed up, even when the amount of data on the original volume is smaller than the size of the target volume. So if I use 10 gb of my 500 gb volume, then back it up to a file that ends up at about 8 gb, I can't restore it to a volume of 499 gb.

2) The restore interface doesn't let you choose a destination for the restore. The software figures if you backed up drive "C", then it's going to try to restore to drive "C". Even if the backup file is currently on drive C, which means restoring over itself. That's right. Vista tries to restore a backup by reading from the backup file while simultaneously deleting the partition that contains that file.

I've spent about 12 hours now going through various attempts to work around Vista's ridiculous limitations.

It didn't help that I forgot that Vista (pre-sp1) is prone to BSOD with more than 2gb of RAM.
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on February 21, 200908:41 PM:

It's not just how she said it ... it's true in a way that strikes a chord. I've seen it in my own life as well as in the lives of my kids -- a long delay, some worries, then the kid suddenly pulls ahead. Happened to me with reading, and just happened to Thing Three.

Most moving moment of my life was when my first son came out blue and dead, and then, before my eyes, took an angry breath, and turned pink and alive.

We've been waiting four years for some miracle like that to happen to Thing Two, and we still haven't given up hope.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 21, 200909:26 PM:

"Why do people do **** like that? If someone is going faster than me I have no problem letting them pass. And I go out of my way to let people over or in when traffic is bad. Karma. I just don't get it. And I can't believe he was a cop cop or being such an ******* he would have attempted to pull me over even in his civilian car."

I got flicked off by a cop once. I have no idea why - I didn't do anything aggressive, but it was one of the few times since I was in high school that I got so mad that the light behind my eyes started to get dim.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on February 21, 200909:43 PM:

scifi

Apple Time Machine.

Works well. And it is fire proof.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 21, 200911:35 PM:

I never told you this Pete but Little John came out with the cord wrapped around his neck, not breathing and blue as a smurf. The doctor took him out, spun him like a basket ball and he came to life. That ten seconds seemed to last forever.

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 22, 200905:41 PM:

KE, that's cool about Jake (the school stuff). And munga, Pete, about yours as well.

I really like hearing folks on Ornery talk about their successes and good things that happen with their families. I want to know when people are having a hard time, too, because it makes this site feel more like a community to get both kinds of insight. But hearing the good stories is worth a lot. (I think some of what I used to get out of going to church, the good stuff, is replaced by reading those stories. Unlike chain emails, the inspirational stories here aren't insipid. )

Thanks for sharing.

Red, thanks for the tip. If my computing needs shift to where a Mac would work well for what I want to do, I'll definitely keep that in mind (a hard drive made it through the fire, really? That's amazing). Now that I've been through the wringer with Vista's built in utility, I'm changing the way I store files and the backups to avoid the specific problems that I ran into. (But seriously, Vista's backup utility sucks. I copied the files that I needed from my old backup then repartitioned my drive and reinstalled Vista and other programs to make a more manageable backup compared to my old setup. Then backed it up so I'd have something recent while I investigate other software. Vista *deleted* the old backup without prompting or notifying me it was going to do so. It worked out fine, I was going to get rid of the old image after I had the new image and my key files safely backed up, but not until then...certainly not during. Unbelievably sucky software. I generally like Vista [I'm an independent thinker that way ] but this particular feature is AWFUL. I'd rather they hadn't included it, because then I would have used something else and saved myself a lot of trouble.)
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 23, 200901:41 AM:

I watched Chaplin last night for the first time. Pretty surprised at how good it was. Excellent story based on an interesting guy. Plus, it's rare that you see an excellent movie which also has boobs in it. That is really uncommon. Plus it had Robert Downey Jr. in it. Good movie, with boobs, and RDJ. Can't really go wrong.
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on February 23, 200909:31 AM:

RDJ's boobs just aren't appealing to me...

To each his own though...
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 23, 200911:53 AM:

"Plus, it's rare that you see an excellent movie which also has boobs in it."

I don't know that I agree. However, there are some excellent movies that without the boobs would be worthless.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 23, 200904:43 PM:

"RDJ's boobs just aren't appealing to me...

To each his own though... "

Have you ever seen Robert D? Him, Clive Owen, and Brad Pitt are all free passes.

"I don't know that I agree. However, there are some excellent movies that without the boobs would be worthless. "

What good movies have you seen with a lot of boobs in them? And these "excellent movies that without boobs would be worthless" that you speak of don't count. Where The Boys Aren't I-XVI are all great visual fixes, and would be worthless without boobs, but certainly not good movies.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 23, 200905:14 PM:

I don't know the titles, I just know them when I see them on Cinemax after 9 PM.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 23, 200905:39 PM:

"Yes, dear, you go to bed. I've got some demons I need to yank out"
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 23, 200909:18 PM:

quote:Originally posted by scifibum: "Plus, it's rare that you see an excellent movie which also has boobs in it."

I don't know that I agree. However, there are some excellent movies that without the boobs would be worthless.

Oh, come on. That's a new thread, for sure....
Posted by scouser1 (Member # 3455) on February 23, 200909:55 PM:

In case anyone is bored of the same things to watch on tv or nare anytime stuck for things to amuse them , and for anyone thats into supernatural stuff a la Heroes etc, there is a new series thats started here called Being Human, a bit of satire about a werewolf, a vampire and a ghost all living together. Quite funny at times and deadly (literally, boom boom!) serious in places, but overall i've really enjoyed it You can find good links to watch it at www.sidereel.com

And if you really wanna freak out I would definately recommend Ghost Hunting with Paul O'Grady and friends, it will have your hair standin on end for days after watchin it. I know I did when I watched it. In the dark. At about 12 at night Paul O'Grady (a fellow scouser, naturally ) and some British tv stars visit some seriously haunted places. If anyone is deciding to watch it I wont go into much detail, but the final place they go to is a very famous Catacomb in Palermo, Italy, but it's not exactly your conventional walls made of skulls type of Catacomb.....

Oh, and you might want to turn the sound down a bit, theres a screamer among them Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 24, 200912:54 AM:

you know what, guys? I am the worst "editor" in that I go back and play with my posts, sometimes the whole time that I have. I notice some people write up their "edits" at the bottom- record that they added/subtracted but gracious, I do it constantly. And I don't bother too much tracking ALL the edits.

and I can't seem to stop.

so, for all "yous guys" responding, I'm sorry and I hope you forgive the apparently really ingrained habit.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 24, 200912:55 AM:

AND it is killing me NOT to go back and edit that one!
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 24, 200901:28 AM:

and now the time has elapsed %%^&*(((((*&^%$#%
Posted by Mariner (Member # 1618) on February 24, 200911:02 AM:

The 'Star Trek' actor, who played Captain Kirk in the hit sci-fi TV show, is planning to make a dramatic career change and help lead his native country.

All Canadian Orneryites, I expect you to do whatever it takes to make this happen now!
Posted by Lina Inverse (Member # 6361) on February 24, 200902:22 PM:

lol@munga

I put in edit markers because I'm used to places where you can't edit your comments, so for me it's really weird to be able to change things around. (Generally, the reason given for not allowing edits is so someone can't post something inflammatory, then edit it into something benign before the mods can smack them for it.) Yet at the same time, the typos, they stare at me so

I also didn't know about the editing time window for a while, so now that I know about it, I think I might stop mentioning it when I correct typos and run-on sentences. I do like to mention it when I change actual content, to prevent the kind of misunderstanding I mentioned above. I do wish strikethrough was enabled here; it's a good way to show that you take a statement back without removing said statement.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 24, 200904:19 PM:

oh, second that.

OM, I'd LOVE a strikethrough feature!

(by the way, is the OM really Paladine? no one answered me in a previous thread)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 24, 200905:01 PM:

Paladine only mods the Ornery U forum, I think. Unless the conversation between Ornery Mod and Paladine where they agreed to that arrangement was an elaborate ruse. Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 24, 200905:09 PM:

well, who is the OM, or is it a secret?
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 24, 200905:15 PM:

Ask not who wears the mantle of modLest ye incur the threadlock of GodWith earnest charity I tell you this:Be ye content with ignorant bliss
Posted by msquared (Member # 113) on February 24, 200905:23 PM:

really? isn't he, hasn't he been, married? I cling to his James T. Kirk image -- it was very impression-making when I was in 1st grade. Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 24, 200907:05 PM:

Sucks that Paladine has been outed. He's MOd, y'know. But it sucks to have to Mod in the open, because it hampers your activity as an active Orneryan.

Not to mention the paparazzi.
Posted by cperry (Member # 1938) on February 24, 200909:09 PM:

I couldn't ever be a mod. Beside the native-temperament problem, the other part of my problem is that I'd be forced to read threads in which I cannot discern a net value (detectable change in the world).

Paladine is mod of the U channel, that I know of. (I take the villagers' approach to Nanny Ogg's still, if you know what I mean...)
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on February 25, 200909:31 AM:

I found it funny that Obama greeted the Speaker of the House, the Vice President, members of Congress, and his wife.

He didn't greet the Chief Justice and Justices of the Supreme Court.

Just found it interesting. Either he is incompetent when it comes to protocol, such as his swearing in, numerous flubs with Biden at introductions of Cabinet Members, or even last night when he didn't bother waiting for Pelosi to formally introduce the President to the members of Congress in joint session or he really doesn't give a damn about whether he is polite or not.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on February 25, 200910:12 AM:

quote:Originally posted by TommySama:

I got flicked off by a cop once.

Speaking of this, has anyone ever seen the phrase "giving the bird" used to mean something other than giving the finger? I played a British text adventure in which one of the goals was to reveal hidden magic wands by waving the correct wandlike objects. If you wave a certain flower branch that is not a concealed wand, you get the message (paraphrased) "The pollen it releases makes your eyes water, but this fails to give you the bird. (Worth a try, anyway.)". Here "give you the bird" seems to mean "give you what you want". (It's also a hint, because elsewhere you need to wave the branch at a bird to drive it away.)
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 25, 200910:49 AM:

"or he really doesn't give a damn about whether he is polite or not. '

It was the justices who flubbed in his swearing, not Obama, and after shaking the hands of a gazillion people and smiling and all, minute forms of protocol among the ruling members of your nation's own government be damned, awreddy. Especially in a ritual that works as a call'n'response approval/disapproval contest depending on how whether one applauds or stands when the president speaks certain words.

I saw only two things that whole night I thought rude: the shunning of Burris, although I well understand the political motivations behind it; and the many people asking Justice Ginsburg to shake their hand and expend that much more energy two weeks after pancreatic cancer surgery.

"He didn't greet the Chief Justice and Justices of the Supreme Court."

Well, to be technical about it, he was formally addressing the body known as Congress, not the body known as the Supreme Court.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 25, 200910:51 AM:

Yo, Dave S: the above post of mine is an example of me posting with underlying motives more contemptuous than enlightening or instructive, consciously not playing 'nice' but adhering to principles of niceness of discourse.

But it would be rude of me, bad protocol under Ornery terms, to simply say, How stupid.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 25, 200911:38 AM:

"Speaking of this, has anyone ever seen the phrase "giving the bird" used to mean something other than giving the finger?"

Yup. My Chinese professor last year pointed with his middle finger a lot, until we all started laughing. He looked confused, and then realized why. "Where I'm from, we point with our this finger. *inverts finger to salute position* But it's offensive to you Americans. Hahahaha"

Also, my high school gym teacher got his index finger knocked off in a motorcycle accident. Instead of pointing with his other hand, he used his middle finger to point at us... But that was because he was a douche.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 25, 200911:43 AM:

I just got a free 5$ drink at starbucks, because one of the stoned employees liked my Ninja Turtles shirt! Cost me $10, after wearing it for 30 minutes, it has paid for half itself already (besides the guy who stared at me and went, "Sweet shirt, Woot!"

I didn't think about it, but Obama's protocol was not too far from others before him, though nobody else made mention of the hot lady sitting up in the balcony. I thought that was a cute touch, actually. He definitely is from a different mold. Maybe Red can come up with a precedent for greeting everybody else, in which case the Joint Chiefs and the Cabinet should also get a hi-ho.

quote:Madame Speaker, Mr. Vice resident, Members of Congress, and the First Lady of the United States:

I’ve come here tonight not only to address the distinguished men and women in this great chamber, but to speak frankly and directly to the men and women who sent us here.

I kinda knew that but wasn't sure, but I wanted others reading all this 'niceness' talk to get a glimpse of the issue in action. You're OK w/ me, DaveS. We can still be friends if no longer lovers, but would you mail me my black on black silk on satin nightie? The one with the nipple slits?
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on February 25, 200903:46 PM:

I have two, so be more specific. They are identical except that the naughty one is dirty and the nice one is clean.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 26, 200901:25 AM:

Oh it is very nice... and rough.Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on February 26, 200902:38 AM:

I worked from 7am to until 11pm tonight picking up and delivering valves because I promised the people at Bayer Chemicals (huge plant that makes a lot more than aspirin, some of it a lot like mustard gas) that we would pick up and deliver day and night. Then one of our guys died in a car accident going to church, a girl quit due to marriage problems, they promoted our best guy to purchasing, and yesterday the last guy left in inside sales went to the hospital with complications from diabetes.

So, we are only running one truck in the day time and since I promised them nighttime pickups and deliveries I have taken it upon myself to work my regular hours and make the nighttime runs, too. Hey, I gave my word. I'd like to say I'm doing my part to reinvigorate the American work ethic (and economy, but I'm really just trying to impress John Wayne.

Anyway, long story short. (anybody that thought "too late" sucks.) This kid (25) out at Bayer said three times that he couldn't believe that I'm 41. Not only did he make my day/night, but he is now my favorite person. (I realize I have let those liberal bastards in Hollywood brainwash me into not being able to grow old gracefully.

Ken, you got me. I was expecting a video of one form of "fisting" or the other, and the intro to "Proud Mary" never crossed my mind. Just when I think I've got you figured out you pull a smooth one. I tip my hat to you sir.

I'm just who I am, whatever that is. Lately I've managed to be tolerably good at it. I LOVE that video. I wonder how the tina-girls treated him after the show? Seemed they kinda liked that boy.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on February 26, 200909:15 AM:

"Steven Colbert just called Gandhi "a total pussy". [Smile] "

Steven Colbert is a practicing Catholic.. I know, I was disappointed, too
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on February 26, 200910:48 AM:

quote:What really intrigues me is that he plays the idiot-conservative so well and so kindly that conservatives don't realize how gently they are being unwound from their idiocy with his character.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I think conservatives are quite well aware of how Colbert lampoons their ilk. What is the unwinding from idiocy that is occurring that conservatives aren't aware of?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 26, 200902:03 PM:

well, I disagree. I don't think half of the conservatives in the audience get that he's deliberately playing a buffoon-conservative.

I think it's because they can't help but laugh at themselves via Colbert.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 26, 200902:58 PM:

and that is the first stage to a gentle and private spiritual recovery from the sad condition of conservatism.
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on February 26, 200903:06 PM:

Most political humor is self-contradulatory crap -- smugness masquerading as humor. People laugh at Colbert because he's actually funny. You don't have to agree with his politics to enjoy his spoof.

He doesn't just undermine conservatism, though; he also undermines mindless flag-waving nationalism, which is something that left and right both have in spades.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on February 26, 200904:03 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga:

and that is the first stage to a gentle and private spiritual recovery from the sad condition of conservatism.

More liberals than I at first thought appear to see conservatism as a mental illness, and vice versa.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 26, 200904:15 PM:

well, not quite.

I think of it as a lot of condition of having been deeply abused by propaganda, by those who have only their own interests at heart.

For instance, right now the best thing that could happen to any community is to re-capitalize the economy, but many conservatives are fighting it because it will "cause inflation on top of this disaster" because... they don't understand where inflation comes from. They've been taught finance by those who had only their own interests at heart.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 26, 200905:05 PM:

case in point: I actually had a Congress-critter's aide ask me,

"Why aren't all the cities saying they need this, and just yours are?"

I said,

"Because they've got batter-wife syndrome. If you've been abused enough, and told that you aren't worthy of development, and had your ideas turned down for finance, you think that you don't."

I'm thankfully not the Mod, KL and Munga. What little moderating I've had to do on Ornery U has been quite enough for me, although I'll keep at it for the time being since I like the place as much as I do. Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 26, 200907:45 PM:

You know, I meant to celebrate my 2500th post. I was going to make a big thread commemorating the time I've spent here and thanking you all for a few years of interesting conversation and reading. But instead I spent it denying that I was a mod, so I suppose my self-celebration thread will have to wait until 5000. It's been fun though. Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 27, 200910:27 AM:

I think we need a new term for some conservatives, the BOF conservative or Blame Obama First conservatives. I actually saw some pundit on CNBC claim that the market began falling last year because Obama was ahead in the polls. Of course the market fall had nothing to do with AIG, Lehman, and tons of other banks losing hundreds of billions of dollars. The market anticipated that tax rates on the wealthiest Americans may go from 35% to 39% or capital gains rates may go from 15% to 20% causing the entire economy to collapse. How can they make these claims with a straight face?
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 27, 200912:07 PM:

Another acronym for a BOF would be an SEI: Self Evident Idiot.
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on February 27, 200912:11 PM:

Glad to hear it, Paladine. More freedom for you, plus, you don't have to deal with me. I'm hell on Mods. Impudent incorrigibility is my middle name.
Posted by Brian (Member # 588) on February 27, 200901:53 PM:

Munga - Among other things, I believe the dot is only worn by certain classes (or possibly castes) and the color indicates marital status.

In modern times, however, it is becoming more and more just another variation of make-up to look pretty.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on February 27, 200904:15 PM:

Yeah, I googled it too, next.

Last night we had a good time at a "culture night" at my daughter's school- hula dances, karate demos and roll-your-own asian food.

People are so interesting.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on February 27, 200904:37 PM:

I used to look forward to "country reports" in sixth grade. A lot of the kids would bring in food from the country they learned about. I first tasted kimchi, nori, dried squid, and <of questionable national significance> chilled carrot soup that way. I'm guessing most of these kids did reports on countries their dads visited on church missions. I always enjoyed the opportunity to try something different, but some of the kids were less eager to try it. I'm not sure whether I think squeals of horror are an acceptable reaction to such offerings. They are kids, but come on...it's not that gross.
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on March 01, 200901:26 PM:

Anyone with AIM and anyone who wants to chat live, since it hasn't been done for ages on Ornery join ornerychat room. I figure talking or even video conferencing might be good for all of us.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 01, 200908:23 PM:

I have AIM, though I haven't used AOL in forever, Stacy loves it, all her friends are on AOL. But I don't want to do video, then I'd have to shower, comb my hair, and get out of bed. And it's Sunday.

KE
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 01, 200908:44 PM:

Yeah dude. We slept from 3AM until 230 this afternoon. Between the pancakes GFSama made, the guitar we played, and South Park, my feet and underarms smell pretty bad.. Plus I probably look like a bag of ass, wouldn't want to embarrass myself on live chat!
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 01, 200909:59 PM:

Good news, if you ever tell somebody that you are a member of OA, and they look it up, they will find that you are a member of "Overeaters Anonymous"
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on March 01, 200910:00 PM:

I'm a member of Obnoxious Assholes.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 01, 200910:11 PM:

I'm a member of Assholes Unanonymous. I'm telling you kenny, you gotta get Facebook!!!!!!!11
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 02, 200910:23 AM:

I've got Facebook (John L. Myers IV) but if I ever talk to a girl Stacy deletes all my conversations and changes my password to as shole1 or something. So, I haven't even looked at it for over a month. It was nice at first to talk to old school friends, but then some of them were girls and God forbid they ask to be friends. Stacy is a little jealous, and seems to be getting worse. (I went to Five proms, only one with her, so I hope her memory doesn't get any better.)

KE

Edited to add: Although she is on it more than I am on Ornery, and I have No Idea who she is talking to or what their gender might be. Maybe I am not jealous enough?

Edited again to add: She got semi-mad at me the other day because her best friend, who introduced us, reminded her that she and I went to her prom together. Stacy was there, but she had forgotten and so now I am in trouble for something I did with her blessing 22 or 23 years ago before we were married or really much of an item. Go figure.

Stacy says it's because I know (in the biblical sense) so many of the girls that look me up. But I have no problem with her talking to the one other guy she had sex with so I don't know what her problem is?

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 02, 200904:36 PM:

KE-

I won't be offended then, about the fact that you haven't answered my friend-request. Truth to tell you..... how can I say this nicely???... I'm stuck with a minor problem. People at church have always assumed that I mostly agree with them, about everything. In fact, I mostly disagree with the way they want to apply the principals we agree on.

so

Here I am, getting friend-requests, from people that I struggle to communicate with at church. And they read my profile. I guess I am "outed" but I don't give a flying damn about it. I'm tired of THEIR policies of repression and provoking starvation and economic slavery.

of course I love them anyway, but I'm thinking that feeling might not be fully returned.

*sigh*

anyway, I'm in a bit of fatigue right now, I've got loads of work, and the hot topics on the board of SSM..... which means fighting Pete about what the meaning of is is... and I'm a little burned out on that, too.

so, if I look like I'm only chiming in every once and a while or like IP might just be attracted to the patently-silly, please know I don't love my Ornery any less, I'm just tired and distracted and... like any girl.... I have only so much in my communication-batteries and then I have to hit someone.

Just out of interest, what are the mainstream lds policies of repression and policies that provoke starvation and economic slavery? Sounds a bit dramatic.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 03, 200909:51 AM:

Lobo-

---- instigated and choreographed the removal of access to the domestic civil agreement "marriage" of gay folks in CA.

---- encourage only flimflam SSU in Utah, so that the gay community is unable to have equal protection under the law

---- is entirely aware that there is a population of polygamous folks in state, but does not recognize their civil agreements so that the children and wives can have the protection of the law, because they currently prefer the approval of the nation and use a posture of puritanical snobbery against those in polygamous households---- all of which result in less protection for the people in them.

---- their economic tendencies diametrically oppose release of capital for production, so that their population in Utah in particular is prone to starvation and death. We have been attempting for two years to invest in Utah (I arranged for investors to write commitment letters pledging use of assets up to $150 Million dollars for renewable energy infrastructure -- imagine if the people knew that Utah will access the stimulus because Utah has told investors NO) but the leadership is fighting it, while simultaneously encouraging people to have ____ month/year supply of food which means that even the food industry will fall on its knees during the process of the economic destruction of Utah. Remember- an economy is only worth the currency in it, and Utah is fighting the injection of currency, to the detriment of the people.
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on March 03, 200910:09 AM:

I would counter that both of these issues, SSM and release of capital, are very low on most people's agendas... I don't think that the people in your ward are concerned about your thoughts on the matter or would have reason to "out" you, especially about "release of capital" - I know if goes over my head.

Do you have any statistics to back up your claim that Utah is more prone to starvation and death than other states? This is the first I have heard that having a supply of food storage is a bad thing...
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on March 03, 200912:48 PM:

Notice:

Kenmeer and family will be without internet access for at least a few months after March 6th.

Kenmeer: see the movie! buy the t-shirt!
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 03, 200903:20 PM:

wait a minute! what does that mean! what is going on!

who will supply klishy gifts?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 03, 200903:26 PM:

quote:Originally posted by Lobo: I would counter that both of these issues, SSM and release of capital, are very low on most people's agendas... I don't think that the people in your ward are concerned about your thoughts on the matter or would have reason to "out" you, especially about "release of capital" - I know if goes over my head.

Do you have any statistics to back up your claim that Utah is more prone to starvation and death than other states? This is the first I have heard that having a supply of food storage is a bad thing...

Lobo, nobody cares, yes, about the issues, but the fact that I am not a card-carrying republican will be a blow. "We never knew her!" they say, and that is all I'm talking about. We do have liberals in our ranks, who are just quietly despised by the "mainstream" conservative forces in the Mormon church. They don't care about access to the civil contract, except to make sure it is denied to others, I know.

Prone to starvation and death? Well, why don't you look at the poverty rates, and compare them with other states that are of similar population. You'll find that Utah has some of the lowest wages for the same jobs, per capita.

Supply of food storage is not a bad thing. Use of food storage for primary consumtion (not flow-through of supply) for reasons that are not consistent with actual force majeure- or in other words, neither the government nor the suppliers are disrupted, we are only in a capital crisis and so, by removing the consumerism upon food the people of Utah are contributing to the downfall of commerce in their own neighborhoods. What, after all, about the grocer and the grocer's families and all who are currently paid by the grocer? By utilizing a "bandaid" rather than a cure- which is injection of the currency rather that the opposite- the gradual sqeezing of commerce upon an industry- they are contributing to the economic downfall of the location. Grocers and people who depende on them are more likely to have their assets seized and more likely to, ironically, starve.

It is also the leading state for online porn consumption. Not to mention that 8 of the top 10 states with the highest per capita consumption of online porn are self-identified as Republican, Conservative, religious and strive to pass laws to promote family-values:

quote:subscriptions are also more prevalent in states where surveys indicate conservative positions on religion, gender roles, and sexuality. In states where more people agree that “Even today miracles are performed by the power of God” and “I never doubt the existence of God,” there are more subscriptions to this service. Subscriptions are also more prevalent in states where more people agree that “I have old-fashioned values about family and marriage” and “AIDS might be God’s punishment for immoral sexual behavior.

quote:Originally posted by DaveS: It is also the leading state for online porn consumption. Not to mention that 8 of the top 10 states with the highest per capita consumption of online porn are self-identified as Republican, Conservative, religious and strive to pass laws to promote family-values:

Thus it is harder for the libs to get their porn fix outside their homes...leading to high online porn usage. I would much rather that those who feel the need to use porn do it in their homes and keep it off the streets...
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on March 03, 200905:25 PM:

quote:Thus it is harder for the libs to get their porn fix outside their homes...leading to high online porn usage. I would much rather that those who feel the need to use porn do it in their homes and keep it off the streets...

Not sure how you made the back connection to liberals, Lobo. Do you not see any irony in those statistics?
Posted by kenmeer livermaile (Member # 2243) on March 03, 200909:08 PM:

Lobo, you're as illogical or misinformed as I remember. It's always a treasure to read your posts. Someone should tell Orson he's far from alone.
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on March 03, 200909:14 PM:

Scifi, I didn't know about that thread. Thanks.

BTW, I tumbled to that bit of factuous information while reading about a Utah state senator who has loudly condemned homosexuality as the greatest threat to our society. The juxtaposition of that microcephalic conclusion with the fact that he lives in the state where he is statistically more likely to view porn-for-pay in the privacy of his home than anyone else in the country is rich.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 03, 200910:37 PM:

I remember him. He doesn't see black people either. He doesn't see race.

In fact, that state senator from Utah is the inspiration behind Colbert's goofy "I don't see black people" schtick.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 03, 200911:10 PM:

DaveS, the only thing weirder than Buttars's bizarre mindset is that the people of West Jordan keep electing him.

Buttars had the bad form to pretend he didn't really mean to say those things on the record, as if that mitigates his spite. (Being videotaped and signing a form that provided permission to use the recording without any right of review seem to have escaped his memory.) Somehow he thought the gay filmmaker was on his side, I guess. He must have fooled him by not trying to destroy America during the filming.

The legislature in this state is really something. Another of our fine legislators this year proposed (loudly) that restaurants should be required to put 10 foot walls between liquor bottles and anywhere a child might set foot in the restaurant. Just when the governor was making some headway in making Utah's liquor regulations a little less ridiculous, too.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 04, 200902:28 AM:

Even if Lobo totally missed the message and totally got the wrong party/group of individuals that are paying to beam porn into their homes so they can look Lilly white and moral in public and at church he did hit the nail on the head by comparing jerking off to "getting a fix"; slang for all you people that didn't grow up in the gutter like me, for the desperate need and 'addict' has for an injection of Heroin, horse, smack, "H", one of if not the most addictive and destructive drugs known to man.

Lobo's analogy is perfect! So I think we can let the fact that he totally missed the point slide. I mean he did get the main point right. (Where's the emoticon that let's me figuratively blow my own brains out?)

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 04, 200902:44 AM:

I DON'T GET IT!??

I just got home at 1:30am after going above and beyond my job description (after putting in a full days work in the day time) and I am making more money than I've ever made before. Where is the catastrophe I keep hearing about? Am I just lucky?

I feel I am blessed and grateful for the opportunity I have at this crisis in our countries dire straits. I tell you I feel blessed and am struggling to maintain my job.

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Even if Lobo totally missed the message and totally got the wrong party/group of individuals that are paying to beam porn into their homes so they can look Lilly white and moral in public and at church he did hit the nail on the head by comparing jerking off to "getting a fix"; slang for all you people that didn't grow up in the gutter like me, for the desperate need and 'addict' has for an injection of Heroin, horse, smack, "H", one of if not the most addictive and destructive drugs known to man.

Lobo's analogy is perfect! So I think we can let the fact that he totally missed the point slide. I mean he did get the main point right. (Where's the emoticon that let's me figuratively blow my own brains out?)

KE

First - I don't think I missed the point. Are you trying to tell me that Utah has the highest online porn consumption rate because the Mormon's are porn addicts? If that was so, Idaho should be up there as well. I think it is much more likely that the minority group who wants to see porn have to view it in their own homes because it is not as readily available on the street.

Second - Are you saying that porn is NOT addictive? I don't know if I understand your point...
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on March 04, 200909:32 AM:

quote:Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile: Lobo, you're as illogical or misinformed as I remember. It's always a treasure to read your posts. Someone should tell Orson he's far from alone.

The author of the study must be similarly illogical and misinformed...

"Another possibility for Utah's top porn billing may be the scarcity of adult entertainment outside the home.

"If it is distinctively difficult to get this material in retail locations in Utah, Utah residents who seek such material may have to get it online," said Edelman, in an e-mail. "On net, then, Utah residents would be buying more online adult entertainment -- but perhaps not more total adult entertainment."

And look at the numbers - less than 6 per 1000 broadband users and less than 2 per 1000 people.
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on March 04, 200909:40 AM:

"...he did hit the nail on the head..."

Isn't that another euphemism for the mano a soma nasty? Isn't everything?

quote:And look at the numbers - less than 6 per 1000 broadband users and less than 2 per 1000 people.

It's all relative, and btw nobody was impugning you or your relatives, just noting the correlation between voting for John McCain and belief in the sanctity of marriage with elevated levels of online porn consumption. You can't test for it, only observe that it happens.
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on March 04, 200909:45 AM:

I think it is a meaningless correlation at a state level.
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on March 04, 200909:56 AM:

It may well be, but the sport of this topic is that it reveals how we all (here on Ornery as much as anywhere) use the concept of correlation to imply the responsibility of cause and consequence. To see what I mean, just say the word "liberal" to yourself and see what negative images come to mind. Now project them onto some liberal member of Ornery. FWIW, we don't all want to destroy America or kill babies. Maybe 0.000000001% do, but then they're not actually liberals any more than the population of Mormons in Utah are obsessed with online pornography.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 05, 200904:17 AM:

I won another Poker tournament tonight. First place only payed $220.00 and I tipped the dealer $20.00 but it was still a lot of fun. Winning is like better than losing. Then I played cash poker (my dad was there) for about six hours and won some more money at that. But really just hanging out with the guys and my dad is the best part about it. Paladine, I wish you could come down and play with us sometimes. I don't know if any of the rest of you play, though I think Tommy and maybe Pete and Scifi, and definitely Jesse would enjoy it if they are ever in town. Fly, would you be interested next time you are here?

How does The Church of Latter Day Saints feel about gambling? Just curious.

Hope y'all all are doing well, and that your families are happy and prospering. Even after all this time I still think it is a little weird that I have this whole group of friends that are very important to me, more important than a lot of people I know in "real" life, whom I never actually "see". That's something I never considered when I was a kid dreaming of flying cars in the future. But y'all are important to me and I wish you all the very best. Y'all have been there for me through some pretty rough times and I really appreciate it. Though in the midst of our "intellectual" discussions I probably don't say it often enough.

We should start an exchange program. Like Daruma can send me a Lei, or a Pineapple, or a surfboard, or a Hawaiian woman, or even a jar of sand, from Hawaii and I'll send him...a Longhorn Bull or Lasso, or boots, or whatever y'all think is representative of Texas.

Then, eventually, we would all have little collections of things from around the country/world to remember each other by and to show our friends and family. Ev, you have to send everybody Lobsters. Sorry, I know that's going to be tough on a teachers salary but it's your fault for living in Boston. Or maybe just some Boston baked beans or something.

What do y'all think of in that regard when you think of Texas? I'll make a thread and we can toss around some ideas. Nothing too expensive, but meaningful and representative of us and where we live.

I was just being a little snarky (That's sarcasm but more like poking fun than being mean ).

Yes, I agree with you that pornography can be "addictive". But then you can say that about almost anything. Heck, Starbucks coffee and Dunkin Donuts 'can' be addictive, and they are both probably both worse for the addict in the long run than porn. And I do think your use of the word "fix" which "smacks" of "smack" (Heroin) was unnecessarily hyperbolic. Thus the snarkiness.

But again; I don't think there is anything "wrong" with pornography so I wasn't casting aspersions on anyone or any state by saying they might be viewing it more than others. I do think it is mostly badly produced and hard to watch (no pun intended). In fact, for such a huge money making industry I can't believe how bad the majority of the products put out are as far as production value, acting, and direction. . And IMO, it is a poor substitute for the real thing. However, it is still better than nothing and a relief for normal guys as well as scumbags who might be desperate enough to harm a woman in real life without the relief they can get from masturbating to pornography. And I positively agree that "some" porn objectifies and degrades women. Far too much in fact. Men too for that matter.

I think if anybody ever did it well and classy they would make a lot of money. But maybe it is the nature of the genre that makes that untenable?

And I think you are absolutely correct in your observation that people in states that frown on sex and restrict it in public places, book stores, video stores, etc. are much more likely to have it "pumped" into their homes via a long cable. That is just the nature of the beast-with-two-backs.

Problem is, there's no incentive. If crap makes a crapload of money, why invest more in making a quality product?
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on March 05, 200910:45 AM:

The LDS church has a pretty hardline stand on gambling. There was even a talk at a recent general conference that encouraged people to not play poker, even for fun.

The lottery is even frowned on.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 05, 200911:02 AM:

I wouldn't mind learning to play poker. Right now all I know is a few of the main rules of five card (stud or draw). I'm a bit fuzzy on who gets to bet/raise and when. Texas hold 'em I know has something called the flop. Sort of like how Texas BBQ has a mop, right?

As you can see nobody learned me yet about poker. Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 05, 200902:30 PM:

We should try some ornery on-line poker.

whats so funny is that everyone would beat me.

and I mean.... slaughteration.

It's not that I can't think, but I have constipated thoughts upon games.
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on March 05, 200903:40 PM:

quote:Originally posted by Lobo: The LDS church has a pretty hardline stand on gambling. There was even a talk at a recent general conference that encouraged people to not play poker, even for fun.

The lottery is even frowned on.

Why do people somehow think the lottery is not gambling? It's a horrible form of gambling that if you play long enough you’re pretty much guaranteed to lose. Just because the state is the house doesn’t make it not gambling. Poker where you play against other individuals is one of the few ways of gambling where by playing smart you can make it profitable over the long term.

Lobo I didn’t really mean to direct this rant at you, it’s just that I’m irritated that I live in a state that has a lottery but consistently arrests people for playing poker. It’s the ultimate form of government hypocrisy, gambling is only legal if the government is the only one making money on it.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 05, 200904:02 PM:

"It's a horrible form of gambling that if you play long enough you’re pretty much guaranteed to lose."

No need for the "long enough" qualification there. Lottery has much worse odds than just about any other form of gambling.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 05, 200905:25 PM:

Good point, Ricky.

Scifi, Paladine is the expert. If you want to learn I'd go to him.

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 05, 200905:40 PM:

Windows Vista has a hold em game you can download. I think maybe I'll start there, if this surfaces at the top of my stack of "leisure items I'd like to spend time on"
Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on March 05, 200909:46 PM:

Tonight I was listening to a recording of kids singing "if you're happy and you know it". (Anything to keep the little ones entertained, right?) The kids were Australian, and I swear they were saying "if you're happy and you know if dodge your head" rather than "nod your head" which would certainly be what I'm used to hearing. Is anyone familiar with "dodge your head" as a British or Australian usage? It would make me feel a little less crazy for having repeated a single line of a kids song over and over and over while staring at my wife saying "c'mon, don't you hear that?"
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 06, 200912:39 AM:

Well, I go crazy thinking a local car dealership's radio jingle is "Is it acceptable? National!" so I can relate, even if I can't help.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 06, 200902:04 PM:

scifi, Paladine has a Poker thread on the Ornery U forum. He's pretty serious - plays with some of the dudes you see on TV making millions.

Here's a quick explanation of holdem:

Before the hand is dealt, the two players clockwise from the dealer (dealing rotates per hand) place the small blind and big blind, which are set at an arbitrary value, save that the big is double the small. Also, the blinds can often increase as time goes by in the game, depending on what kind of game you're playing (tourney or whatever).

Each player (up to 9) gets dealt 2 cards, which only he can see. Then there are five more cards, dealt face up to the middle of the table, which are communal. Each player tries to make the best hand with his or her two personal cards, and and the five communal ones.

Now, betting takes place after every time a card or more is dealt. Meaning: After the personal two, after the "flop" (three cards that are dealt together to the middle), after the "turn" card (card #4 in the middle) and the "river" (fifth and final card in the middle, so named because you usually cry me a river when it's dealt... )

So, let's say we're playing. Five of us. Blinds are 5 and ten units (dollars, chips, apricot pits, whatever you're playing for). So player 1 is dealing, player 2 places small blind 5, player 3 places big blind 10, then cards are dealt. Upon seeing your cards, you then decide whether to call the blind, raise it or fold. Once everyone has done one of these, and assuming at least two players have not folded, the flop is dealt. Again, you look at the cards, see how much you like your hand, and decide whether to bet, call, raise or fold. Then the turn, betting again, the river, betting again, then if two or more players have yet to fold, you show cards and see who won.

Hope this wasn't convoluted. I'm an total novice, but it's a fun game, and to my utter shock - it's totally watchable on TV. I mocked the very notion brutally when our local ESPN began carrying poker shows. But it's better than a lot of stuff on the tube. I even have favorites and everything (Love me some Negraneau, and Phil Ivey is cool too, and there are some funny, funny characters. )
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 06, 200902:13 PM:

Plus there is the Ornery U thread on poker:
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 06, 200902:34 PM:

Thanks for the link, which I was too lazy-ass to provide Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 06, 200902:37 PM:

Sounds like it might be fun.

To be good, you have to have a lot of facts straight, don't you? Odds on a lot of distinct situations?

I have a hard time mastering a lot of information. If it's something where you can calculate on the fly without being Rain Man, I might have a chance at competence. But if I just have to *know* a lot of stuff, probably not for me.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 06, 200903:25 PM:

Holy awesome spam subject line! I love the accidental sense created by this machine generated combination:

quote:sweatband worlds unchasteness geommetrizing

Depending on how you're wearing it, I can imagine a sweatband doing just that.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 07, 200904:15 PM:

There are charts which will tell you whether to call, raise or fold based on your initial 2-card hand. That's the math part. Then, of course, there's the poker part - reading your opponent and messing with their heads.

It really is amazing how a good player will beat inferior ones with literally nothing in their hand.

As the famous poker maxim puts it: If you can't spot the sucker withing 30 minutes of sitting down at the table, you ARE the sucker... :-)
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 07, 200904:22 PM:

I think the best place for me to ever stand near a poker table would be to find the best guy, and instead of stepping forward with my offering and my inability to process, offer to finance a portion of this night's win and splitting the income according to my contribution % total at time of input.

I know where I don't belong.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 07, 200904:22 PM:

"To be good, you have to have a lot of facts straight, don't you? Odds on a lot of distinct situations?"

Depends how good you want to be. If you just want to be competent for a Thursday night game, you'll pick up the general gist of what is a good hand and what isn't. If you want to be in Paladine's league, you will have to master more than a general gist.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 07, 200904:42 PM:

I know Paladine plays online but does he ever play live? Just curious. I suck online. I need to be able to see who I'm playing. Of course I tried online when I first started playing, lost my ass, tried live and won, so I've never gone back. But I know live poker has to be more fun, if not as profitable time/wise as online.

On a completely different matter; How could they make a such a terrible TV show out of a great movie (The Magnificent Seven) based on a great Japanese tale (The Seven Samurai) and using fine if not great actors (Michael Biehn of "Terminator" and "Tombstone" (Johnny Ringo), I think Biehn is great and his hard to pronounce and remember name is the stupidest thing he ever did and has kept him from becoming a huge star, and Ron Perlman, and other A or A- actors like Eric Close.)? I guess maybe writing and direction do count for something?

Sex must be pretty damn important. Because I can't see any difference between two men who are best friends/like brothers but heterosexual (like me and my old best friend John Spretz who died in Can Cun), and say my best friend my wife Stacy. I mean; love is love, right? Sex is the only difference, and God knows that fades. Or in many cases can't produce offspring. So, what's the difference? And that leads us back to SSM. Sorry.

If he's played with Daniel I am muy jealous. He is my favorite and just a great great great man and poker player. I'm not much on hero worship nor wanting to meet celebrities; but I'd love to meet Daniel. (I'd also love to sit down at a table with Paladine someday. And that I'm going to make sure happens, someday. We, have poker in common (he gave me some good advice when I first started playing and one time that advice allowed me to win enough to keep from losing my house. No lie.) and he is one of my favorite people. Even if he is wrong a lot and the trickiest debater I've ever met. He could sell ice cubes to Eskimos). Plus he don't live in Israel. )

He's more than that. He's a good man (did you see what he did for that poor boy that got burned in the car explosion? Not to mention taking care of his mamma.) And he is the very best in the game at putting people on a hand. His only problem is sometimes he doesn't go with his on reads. He's so sure he's right that he calls just to confirm what he already knew. Still, IMO he's the best going right now. Better than Ivey, or Reese, or Hellmuth, or even Moneymaker. That's a joke.

BTW, for those wondering: yes, my cable inet access is turned off, but I am getting ghost wifi about half the day. So I still pop in a bit.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 08, 200901:18 AM:

There is always the library.

KE
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on March 08, 200910:41 AM:

Have you tried moving your computer into a basement with lead lined walls yet?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 08, 200901:12 PM:

quote:Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile: BTW, for those wondering: yes, my cable inet access is turned off, but I am getting ghost wifi about half the day. So I still pop in a bit.

"I know Paladine plays online but does he ever play live? Just curious."

Yup. Just won more than my dad makes in 4 years in one night a few weeks ago. Ask him about it.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 08, 200911:21 PM:

Really.

Isn't anyone else ('cepting me 'n Red) interested in green building?

I find it fascinating.

oh well.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 08, 200911:42 PM:

Red, we are alone. We are utterly..... alone.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 09, 200904:51 AM:

Won 600 dollars tonight. Don't know how much money Tommy's dad makes in a year, but money won is twice as sweet as money earned, and this is the game at which I have the most friends. More like a home game, with a few visitors than a ring game, so all in all a damn fine night.

It is because either you have to do it yourself because no general contractor has a clue of how to do it or you do have a general contractor who understands how to do it but since he is the only one he charges an arm and a leg. Either way, the fact is most people should not be allowed to use a hammer and speed square and most people balk at the costs associated with having to pay for much of the LEED Certified process.

In my case knowing how to frame/block/roof/wire/plumb/hvac/flooring/ceramic trade wise meant that I could explain to my General Contractor and his sub-contractors how to build it "green". On things that were too off the wall for them- I just did it myself.

But the truth of the matter is green contractors are few and far between and the hidden costs of building green can be huge. EG. using NO VOC Paint added $500 to the cost of paint supplies. Using a tankless 98% efficient water heater added $2,400+ to the job. The ultra high efficiency windows added $2000 bucks to the project over the high standard efficiency windows.

Honestly if we had built the house to the current international building code standard, instead of going for the LEED standards for construction, I would guess that we would have shaved $30,000 in the cost of building the house.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 09, 200912:02 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga: Red, we are alone. We are utterly..... alone.

Amazing, I read this with an echo.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 09, 200902:48 PM:

Red,

I want to use some UK builders. Cob is legal and regulated there, so I'll let em deal with each other.

yeah yeah it will be more complicated. but I don't mind a little drag and learnin' all round.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 09, 200904:40 PM:

Have I ever mentioned that The Unit is the best show on television? Terminator is a close second.

I like Terminator, but that second-to-last episode, "Some Must Watch While Some Must Sleep" was so terrible. Dreams within dreams? Please. If I'd had popcorn, I would have been throwing it at the screen.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 10, 200901:45 PM:

Man, this woman next to me is talking about how her son is spoiled and doesn't appreciate anything. He's five. "I just don't understand where he gets it from!" I like how all these stupid parents completely ****ing fail to raise anything even resembling a decent, respectable human being.. and then try pass off the blame.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 10, 200901:50 PM:

quote:Originally posted by TommySama: Man, this woman next to me is talking about how her son is spoiled and doesn't appreciate anything. He's five. "I just don't understand where he gets it from!" I like how all these stupid parents completely ****ing fail to raise anything even resembling a decent, respectable human being.. and then try pass off the blame.

What a monster- talking about her son to others instead of helping her son conquer the problem.

I predict that kid is going to be unhappy.

And that is very sad.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 10, 200902:23 PM:

If I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt, I can imagine that the grandparents are secretly spoiling the kid and telling him he deserves more love and stuff than the mother provides.

Barring that, yeah the mom is dumb. He learned it by watching YOUUUU!
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 10, 200902:37 PM:

**** that little brat. If I saw a kid throw away a toy, and he said, "Don't worry, my dad will buy me a new one." I'd ****ing punch him. Nothing says, "stop being a little ****" like corporal punishment.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 10, 200903:27 PM:

My son, Little John (19), is on Spring Break in Miami.

My wife has been getting daily reports from him on Facebook and the occasional phone call. This morning he sent her a message on Facebook at approximately 8 o'clock. She asked him what he was doing up so early? And he said they, he and the three guys he went down there with, were getting ready to go to Beusch Gardens!

So, now I am in a quandary.

I don't know whether to be happy and proud that we have raised such a remarkably responsible young man, or to hope he is lying to my wife and going to South Beach!? *

Part of it is probably because he doesn't drink (he doesn't even though he knows we would understand as long as he does it responsibly and doesn't drive. But he doesn't like the way people act when drunk and is very particular about how he acts). So, since he doesn't drink, even though I have to assume some of his friends do, they have decided apparently decided they would rather go to Beusch Gardens than South Beach and ogle nude or nearly nude women (The latter is probably because John has a girlfriend and is very faithful. And I've always taught him to lead rather than follow so I guess he is leading them to Beusch Gardens.)

However, when I went to the beach for Spring Break the only kind of bush I was looking for wasn't in a freaking garden! Of course my dad was a womanizing, cheating, alcoholic (Little John has never seen his mother or I drink, nor either of us cheating on the other, and I've taught him to respect women.) but still...HE'S NINETEEN! On Spring Break in Miami! No parents, no girlfriend, and money to burn!

Just before he left, he stopped by home on his way there and I transferred six hundred dollars into his bank account so he could have plenty of money for his trip. Not that he has to spend it all, but my point is it's not like he's hurting for cash. (The money is in his account and he has a bank card to withdraw from, so he isn't walking around with hundreds of dollars. There we go being responsible again. )

Next I guess he'll email his mom that he is going to the Miami Museum of Natural History or Disney Land!?

I know I should be happy and proud, but I just can't believe that we've raised such a good kid, nor one that is sooo different than I was. Or most kids, wouldn't you say? (Seems almost too good to be true? Did I raise him too well? Is he missing out on some of the joys of youth?)

* I was just joking about hoping he was lying to his mother. We are very big in my family about telling the truth. Because we are very big on honor and on having people believe us when we say something. And Little John is very respectful and respectable. (He's going to school to be a lawyer so he can get into politics and change the world for the better, thanks to my AND YOU GUYS at ORNERY'S influence on him. (Yes, you guys bear some of the responsibility/credit for the young man he has become and what he wants to do with his life. He reads us from time to time, though his first foray, well his second foray, his first was as a feigned persona of a religious nut-job just to mess with me, but his second foray into Ornery at like age 16 made him realize he wasn't ready intellectually and especially in his vocabulary and oratory skills to argue with a group of such well educated people. He had neither Tommy's audacity nor Omeg's advanced maturity. Though he was only sixteen. Since then he has lurked, learned, and posted very infrequently. I hope some day he will join us. He certainly has the education, vocabulary, oratory skills, and confidence now to compete, but right now he is a little busy with school, his steady girlfriend, and his friends. I hope in that order. (As I've told you all he made the Dean's List with a 4.0 so he seems to be managing his time well. (He has had two girlfriends and been faithful to both of them. His college girlfriend is a beautiful South Korean girl named Wendy. We've met her and she is a delight. Unfortunately her father is a hardcore Baptist minister, and for some reason John is a godless atheist, kids! So, he is leery about the chances of a long term relationship. Though I'm sure they can overcome it if it's meant to be. However, they are just freshmen in college so any long-term commitments are a long-time off. I hope. Though he has voiced his intent to be faithful to her when he is in Miami on Spring Break. I would have been shocked if he even entertained the idea of not being faithful to her even though she isn't there. Though the only girl I ever managed to be faithful to was the one I married, and that was after we were married. I was nowhere near as good a kid as John is. Though in truth at that age I was a kid and he is a young man. Already a better man than I am.)

I guess what I'm saying is I will not be getting any pictures of naked coeds frolicking on South Beach being sent to me by my oldest John Leslie Myers V. Ah, but there is always hope that I'll do worse with his younger brother.

I don't know how much of this is good parenting, genetics, environment, or luck, but it seems we have hit the jackpot so far. Knock on wood, and God willing. (By God of course I mean: take your pick on whatever or whoever you believe runs the Universe. Whether that is God (capital "G) Yoda, or any other alien(s), Odin, Zeus, Rah, or even if that is just random probabilities and or math that is beyond my feeble mind to grasp.) But, whatever/whoever it is I hope with all my heart that things continue as they have been and that both my boys are healthy, happy, good-hearted, and honorable men. Like I said; So far, so good!

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 10, 200904:48 PM:

Yeah, that last Terminator seemed weird, just out of place and pointless. Oh well, hopefully they'll get back to their usual excellence. The only problem with the show is that they have too many good characters, and not enough screen-time for all of them. Sarah's character is great, I could watch Summer do her nails, Conner is a really good actor, and Brian Austin Green has become, possibly, the best part of the show. (If they would give him more screen-time and more of a story line. I know he was only supposed to be on three episodes but was so good they kept him. Well use him!)

But the last "The Unit" was great!!! (Where is the Tony the Tiger emoticon?)SPOILERS******* Although I knew from the start it was all a test. We are the tv generation, they have to do better than that if they expect to 'surprise' us. But even knowing it was interesting to 'see' how Whiplash handled it.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 10, 200904:50 PM:

Wonderful report, KE.

Little John, it seems like we all get to claim credit, and that yer worth something!

Just got home from a Tejano bar called "The Fire House" in the barrio. A guy I beat out of the tournament I told you I won last Wednesday, Sanfrisco, called me and invited me and my dad to come play. Dad couldn't because he was working. So, I was the only white guy in the place (I'm used to that because I grew up in predominantly hispanic communities and a lot if not most of my friends are Mexican-Americans, and of course I speak a little bit of Spanish). Anyway, I won $985 dollars from them in five hours! I lost the last hand on purpose cause I was afraid they weren't going to let me leave with all their money.

I mean I won so much money that they ran out of chips and I had to start cashing their hundred dollar bills for them. My pockets were stuffed with twenties and hundreds. I didn't even get up to go to the bathroom for five hours because I was sure somebody would kill me and take all the money they had been watching me stuff in my pocket all night. lol

Finally I cashed down to around a hundred and twenty dollars in chips in front of me, bet it all, and when the guy turned his cards over I threw mine in the muck and said; "Well, you've got me covered I guess that busts me! Thanks guys see you next Tuesday!" And walked straight out the door. Then I took my knife out and walked straight to my truck.

They were a really nice bunch of guys and probably I had nothing to worry about from 99 out of a 100 of them. But it was that one guy that sat there and watched me take their money all night that I was worried about. Man it was a rush. They started calling me "The Banker" because I had all the chips. (Usually throughout the night "The Banker" is the guy running the game and he brings all the chips and gives them to guys when they buy-in or cash-out. But I had all the chips!)

I mean; I make more than that in a week so it shouldn't be so much fun, and I know I've said it before but "money won is at least twice as sweet as money earned!"

Paladine, there were three Aces on the board and two nines and I had the fourth Ace. I check to the turn and he makes a big bet when he matches a nine, I smooth call him and put him all-in on the River. (He has a nine and so he has a "Boat" and thinks there is no way I've got the last Ace in the deck. Maybe I should have checked and let him try to bet me off it, but I thought he was pot committed and put him all-in.) He thinks for a long time and starts to fold. So, I looked at him and say; "You can't call." (I didn't say "baby" but you know what I'm talking about.) He looks up at me and says; "I can't?" I said shaking my head a little; "No, you can't." He says; "Call!" and flips over the nine. And I flip over the Case Ace. It was beautiful. I think that may be the first time I've had quad-Aces, definitely if I didn't start with American Airlines.

Another time the guy beside me starts to muck his hand on the River of a big pot (I mean you know how a guy picks up his cards and looks at them before mucking them, he did that) and I did what you're not supposed to do because I know I have him beat and I want him to call so I had to do something; I turn and stare at the side of his head because he's sitting right beside me. Finally he turns and stares back at me and kinda snarls and calls. I flip over my Cowboys that match one on the board for Trips and he shows me pocket Aces. (I knew I had him beat because he was so easy to read, and then when he took so long calling I knew he had nothing that could beat me, so I had to get him to call. The only thing that could have beat me was a double belly buster draw that there was no way he had. And then when he took so long I knew he didn't have it. One of his buddies even said if you don't have the Queen Ten you should fold! Which you know is against the rules and totally out of place, BUT I still got him to call! (Then pushes his last hundred and fifty over to me, and hands me a fresh hundred dollar bill and I push him back some chips and away we go again!)

I was putting them on exact hands in my head all-night long. It was so weird because the guys I usually play with are so good and these guys were like transparent. They might as well have been playing with their cards face up! Man, what a night. Talk about "laying with lambs". I can't decide if it was more like feeding ducks and then shooting them with a shotgun when they gather round you or hunting Buffalo. Cause at least the ducks would run or fly away once you shot the first one, these guys just sat there like Buffalo and kept reaching into their wallets to give me money.

I know how cocky this all sounds, and hey, what can I say; that's always the way I've played everything. And I know someday I'll sit down with Paladine or Daniel and they'll take my head off, but I'm damn happy with how I played tonight.

Oh, and I was charming as Hell so it was almost like they didn't mind losing to me. I mean they didn't like losing their money but they never showed any animosity towards me. I was more worried about the fifty guys and girls gathered around the table watching this gringo take all their friends and husband's money than the guys I was playing with. It's too bad too because if it had been my regular buddies or I hadn't been scared ****less I would have spent a couple of hundred dollars buying beer for the house. Cause it's not really about the money. I'm sure Paladine disagrees. But hey, he always disagrees with me. As it was I felt I needed to get while the getting was good.

I'll buy the beer when I go back next Tuesday, but then I'm taking my dad and some friends with me.

Today I think I get back the paper I wrote a few weeks ago titled "Pumping Your Way to the Bottom" which included terms such as "starting the lawnmower", "roping the goat", "Holding his Peter", "spreading the mayo", "'caught red handed' (left handing it)." Guess what it was about.

I'll tell you how I did!
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 11, 200906:24 PM:

*holds up magic cube*

Was it called something like

"Public masturbation with an emphasis on the actor who played Pee Wee Herman"?

96/100, not bad considering I wrote most of it the two hours before it was due. "And, while I can't give you extra credit for the multiple clever turns of phrase you use, they were greatly appreciated"
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 12, 200912:42 AM:

*snicker*

Yes, colorful writing is a gift to your reader, separate from the information.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 12, 200912:37 PM:

I got slightly involved in state politics this week. I wrote a letter to my state Rep and Senator about Utah's H.B. 450. In a nutshell, the bill places restrictions on the use of paid Internet search keywords if the keyword is a trademark of another company. To use a real life example, this bill would make it illegal for Lens.com to purchase the search keyword "1800Contacts" from Google.

Eric Goldman describes the past iterations of this bill and the lobbying that's been done in the present and past by 1-800 Contacts (it's actually kind of interesting, at least to me).

I work for an Internet company that acts as a venue for the sale of a lot of trademarked merchandise, so the company (and thus I) have an interest in allowing companies to purchase search keywords that are trademarks of other companies.

Even aside from that selfish interest, it seems stupid for Utah to attempt to regulate the Internet. They've flubbed several times with versions of this restriction, due to lack of study and understanding. The bill contains concepts that are extremely vague, such as Internet advertising that is "in Utah" as if Internet ads had geographical borders.

Also, it's anti-competitive. 1-800 Contacts doesn't want consumers to discover competitors, plain and simple. I realize that the entire concept of trademark is anti-competitive in a sense, but it's important to protect a company's identity so the consumer knows who he's dealing with. This internet search keyword issue isn't designed to prevent confusion - if search results are confusing it's likely because of trademark abuse that is already covered by existing law.

So, I wrote to the legislators and urged them to vote against the bill. One of them replied, saying he agreed with my argument that the bill would hamper competition*, and voted against. Perhaps in state politics it's not unusual to get a personal reply from a Representative, but it still surprised me.

The bill still passed the House, though.

*He responded to my concern that the bill was crafted to serve narrow corporate interests with "Just as a side note most bills protect somebody's interest. Just the nature of the process." Sigh. The Utah legislature has had a few ethics scandals in the past few years, and it appears that "the nature of the process" means they simply EXPECT to be working for one corporation or another. I don't know what to reply to this guy - I don't want to fight with him so he learns to ignore future letters from me, but I also don't like the implications of what he said. I suppose I CAN apply a neutral interpretation - some bills might protect the interests of orphans, right? not terrible - but my specific concern was corporate welfare, and he seemed to be shrugging that specific concern off.

The split happened "a few weeks ago," according to a source close to the couple, but it's unclear what precipitated it. "It was a mutual thing," adds the source.

Bristol, the 18-year-old daughter of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, spoke with FOX News in February and told Greta Van Susteren that she and Levi – who are parents to 2-month-old son, Tripp – expected to get married after they completed high school.

No, not surprised. A little sad. While it might be hard to tell which is worse, splitting now or suffering through some number of years of a bad marriage and then splitting, there was always a chance that they would make it work and be happy together.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 12, 200902:21 PM:

I heard Sean Hannity say this on the radio the other day---he completely bamboozled me!

quote:On his radio show, Sean Hannity asserted that "the solid wall of the liberal media, in terms of support for [President Obama], may be starting to crack" and then read from what he claimed was a San Francisco Chronicle editorial criticizing Obama to support his claim. In fact, the editorial from which Hannity read was not from the Chronicle, but rather The San Francisco Examiner, which endorsed Sen. John McCain in the 2008 presidential election.

(I searched for the editorial and found this.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 12, 200906:24 PM:

hah! well, all those SF hippies, even the ones who like McCain, are probably far left of Hannity.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 13, 200912:56 PM:

Read Slate and Salon, you'll find plenty of criticism from the liberal pov. Not similar in tone to what was directed towards Bush, no, but then both the writers and their readers find that's justified. Still, Glenn Greenwald pulls no punches on Obie-Won-Kabami's shameful conduct on the state's secrets issues. (He doesn't use that moniker, tho... But I find it cute.)
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 1392) on March 13, 200902:43 PM:

I don't think Sean would count criticism of Obama for not being liberal enough.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 13, 200903:24 PM:

In his position? I'd take what I could get. Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 13, 200909:03 PM:

The President of our company "texted" me yesterday (Thursday) at 5 o'clock, and asked me "If and when I would be in the office Friday. He said "he wanted to sit down and talk with me."

In this economy, after the events of the last month both in the market and our company; Our "Sales Manager" (the guy who hired me "jumped ship"), and two people were laid off. One in sales support/customer service, and one sales contractor. Also during that time period tragically one of our other inside sales guys, a truly nice guy, died in a freak car accident on his way to church. Most relevantly they haven't replaced any of them. Though they have brought in a "Sales Consultant" to be the temporary Sales Manager. Those of you who know about Consultants know they often come in to "trim the fat" and make the bottom line look better in the short-term. Needless to say I was not thrilled to be called in on a Friday by my boss no matter how well I have been doing, how much money I have been making for the company, and regardless of how much overtime I had been putting in over the last three weeks. As most of you know the prevailing wisdom is companies let people go on Fridays to cause fewer problems.

I texted him back and said I would be there before working hours started at 7:30am and we could meet after the morning walk-through at his convenience. Then I decided I couldn't take the suspense and texted him again and asked him to call me at his earliest convenience. Thankfully, he called me back within five minutes.

I asked him if he got my message and would the time I had suggested be okay? He said yes he had received it and the time would be fine. Then I asked him; "Is there anything wrong?" He replied; "No, not at all." I said; "Great because getting called in by my boss on a Friday in this economy had me a little worried." He said laughing a little; "Oh no, nothing is wrong. I don't beat around the bush and if anything had been going wrong I would have let you know a long time ago. In fact, you are doing a great job. Such a great job that I have an opportunity for you that I would like to discuss in the morning." (The lump of coal that had been sitting in my stomach dissolved and the Brahma Bull that had been sitting on my chest got off.) I said; "Great, I'll be there." He said; "I look forward to it, buddy! (First time he's ever called me "buddy".)

So, I get there this morning and we sit down in his office and he tells me that upon his departure the former Sales Manager that had hired me had suggested I take his place as the new Sales Manager. Even though I had only been there five months or so. He also said that the "Consultant" that has been brought in to be the interim 'Sales Manager' had independent of my former boss made the same suggestion.

Therefore, he, the company President and Human Resource Manager that was sitting in on the meeting, had drawn up a Five Year Proposal for me to sign, starting with me splitting my time between my current outside accounts 40% of the time and being inside 60% of the time learning all the companies systems inside and out and building relationships with 'everybody' in the company (over a hundred people at our location).

He said he envisioned this taking between now and the end of the First Quarter next year at which time I will take over as 'Sales Manager'. He said everybody was impressed with my people skills and that I had the sales training, (I worked for one of the best companies in the business starting out and they did indeed invest a lot of time and money training their sales personnel. At which I excelled.) the product knowledge, as well as a large amount of experience dealing with customers and therefore knowledge of what their needs and desires are which as Sales Manager I could communicate to the Sales Staff. Plus, they want to keep me on as the head of the Corporate Contracts division as I am the only salesperson their with experience dealing with corporate level personell for companies such as Shell Petroleum, Bechtel and Haliburton.

Also, in addition to keeping 'all' of my current accounts and receiving commission for all sells to them from now until I officially become Sales Manager' I will be getting a 25% cut of inside sales commission due to the time in the field this will cost me.

The only drawbacks are that I will be leap frogging all the outside salesmen that have been there so much longer than me, the least of which has been there eight years. However, I think they are comfortable with their positions and don't want to take on the extra work or responsiblity. That and if they keep providing the numbers as they have been I will not have to do much but cordinate their efforts and I will be spending much more time in the office.

The upside is that I will be totally versed in every aspect of the company. (Making me very very valuable and much less likely to be replaced if times get worse) I will also be able to build relationships with 'everybody' in the plant, instead of just the handful that I have developed so far. And, oh yeah, my salary will DOUBLE, when I become full time Sales Manager. One hundred and fifty thousand base salary plus bonuses and profit sharing based on yearly sales! I hope that doesn't sound gauche to be bragging like that, but I'm only telling you guys and I know many of you make far more than that. Plus, I'm so fracking happy I have to tell someone! And of all my friends I think you guys will understand all the most completely.

So, extensive and totally comprehensive job training (I already have Management experience, sales experience, and valve experience, but each company has its on way of doing things and strengths and weaknesses.) Plus, If I do my part guaranteed five year contract with the intent, their words; "Of making me Sales Manager to begin with and an integral part of the company from now until I retire years from now down the road." (Exactly what I was looking for and maybe more.)

I am so psyched it is unbelievable. Here I thought for a little while Thursday that I might being laid off but instead I am getting the chance of a lifetime to be a huge part of a global company.

To show you how things are going to go however, due to my desire to add to Sales numbers this month I will be working tomorrow and possibly Sunday plus I have called in about a third of our shop manpower to make sure we get the valves, actuators, controllers, and bellows out in time to meet the customers needs.

I have a feeling this is going to become my life. But I spent a lot of my early life "having fun" while a lot of you were preparing for great careers and now are reaping the rewards as you should. So, for the next ten to twenty years I will have my nose to the grindstone, only taking it off long enough to play a few hands of Poker on the weekends and take Stacy on expensive vacations and shopping sprees. Also, I'm sure I'll find some way other than putting them through college and law school to make this windfall beneficial to my beloved sons.

Thanks for listening, this has been an awesome week for me and my family. I hope I don't wake up anytime soon.) And I really appreciate having you guys with whom to share it. God knows you've been there through enough of the down times in my life. Hopefully this will show anybody that is having down-times that if they stick it out and keep plugging away eventually good things can and probably 'will' happen.

PS, Stacy wasted some more of my money going to see Brad Paisley at the Rodeo last night, and she too Little John and his girlfriend Wendy, and Jake and two of his best friends. They all had a great time, and I got some really good sleep.

That is until midnight when it started thundering and our third son/dog "Max" started whining and scratching my bedroom door so he could hide under the covers with his daddy. He is more spoiled than either of our boys. Of course his love is unconditional so I guess he deserves it, neh? :}

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 13, 200909:28 PM:

On the down side of my life Stacy is crying now because I pointed out that she has spent 4,000 dollars of furniture and over 2,500 on Pain Pills/vicodin in the last month while I have two rotten teeth and need two root canals and four crowns in the bottom front row of my teeth. I got the tops fixed in Mexico a year or so ago.

I went to the dentist a week ago, I set the appointment and the xrays etc because she wouldn't do it and the dentist said that it would take 3500 and my insurance would give me back 1000, so if we had used Stacy's drug money I could have new teeht now and not have to put up with pretty constant pain and occassional really bad breath. I've altered my smile so you can't see my bottom teeth. I gargle scope and fluride like it's going out of style, plus I gargle hydrogen peroxide before bed. The dentist told me that brushing after cokes is really bad because the cokes softens the enamel and I'm brushing away enamel.

Also, I've been asking Stacy for months to go to the doctor and get herself checked out but I think her attitude, lethargia, and lack of any sex drive at all is caused by the massive amounts of Vicodin and Tramadol she takes. She refuses to go.

Then in an effort to save money I begged her to set me up an appointment so I could go and get painpills for my leg with a pin in it or my cracked vertebrea. I've got really good insurance and we could be getting 120 vicodin a month for 5 dollars a pop and I could give them to her. I've been really busy working from 6am until 2am for the last three weeks. And all she does is sit in front of an expensive little television DVD player she bought and watches tv because she is alone in the office all day.

During that she can't find the time to set me a doctors appointment, find a flight to Juarez and get me a dentist appointment, nor even set me up a haircut with her hair stylist, (he charges her 140 a month for a cut and color) so I don't look like I cut my own hair of get it done for ten bucks. BUT she won't do that either. When I won that 985 the other day, she left me forty in my wallet and supposedly put the rest in the bank. Though now she says we have no money in the bank. Despite the 75, to a 100,k I make. Where does it go?

I spent too much time of my day, today, the day I got promoted, taking her friend to the doctor so she would have painpills this weekend and not be in pain. Jepordizing this great job because she can't go two days without thirty pain pills! But I did it. Dumbass or in love, I can't decide.

Well just now after complaining she cried and swears she's going to quit. I said well wean yourself off. She said that wouldn't work and she is going to quit cold turkey. We will see.

My money is on rationilization before the night is over.

KE
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on March 13, 200911:23 PM:

She needs hospital detox, KE. That much codeine is dangerous to go off cold turkey. And she needs to get her liver function checked--she's massively overdosing on Tylenol (the other component in Vicodin). And I think you need to read up on codependence. (sorry to be a poop...my best friend is a recovering addict, and they litter my family as well. Don't mess around here.)

Congratulations on your professional good fortune, though! You deserve it.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 14, 200912:26 AM:

KE

EXCELLENT on the job report! So many who are employees cannot be trusted to "act" and to "perform" and so, when such a person is found he or she is the real value... all the others are in a way human robots, prisoner to their fears and insecurities and in some cases plain incompetance. Good folks (like me, I hope) have to even fight on the average man's behalf- he doesn't feel able to feret out and defend his or her own equitable exchanges, and they are the continual victims of the less-good folks. On the other hand, there are managers who walk on the floors of facilities who are paid like owners.... because they know how to run it and the owners don't. That's the direction you've been offered and you've got the wisdom to accept it and understand the cost and benefits of it.

ps- do you sell pneumatic valves?

On your Stacy, I think Fun is right. That's painful and hellish until it is beat.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 14, 200902:17 AM:

KE, I'm glad to hear the job is going well, but of course I'm concerned about Stacy. I agree with Funean: sounds like she needs some treatment. I'm guessing you should start thinking about how to manage the stress of your increased job responsibility and dealing with that too. Good luck my friend. (I keep getting the feeling you're on a roller coaster with dramatic ups and downs, KE. I hope things level off for you.)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 14, 200902:23 AM:

If you'll forgive a bit of levity I swear I'm seeing something in the lower right of today's Google home page image:

Thanks everybody for your advice. I'll try to implement it. But as you know until she is ready to quit there isn't much 'anybody' can do. Now she is using the excuse of her mother dying a year ago. Though she was using just as much before.

I've been up since four thirty because I had to go into the office to take care of an emergency for Bayer Chemicals one of our biggest customers. I think I'm going to take a nap.

Already this promotion is not turning out to be all it was cracked up to be. Actually that is not true. I felt really good about myself for getting up so early on a Saturday and getting so much accomplished that will help the companies bottom line.

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 14, 200905:39 PM:

KE,

Have you ever thought of hiring a personal accountant and secretary?

I know it sounds strange, but here's the thing- You can hire anyone from anywhere around the country, and set it up so that they pay all the bills and perform the services that are asked- flights, hairdressers, what have you.

You could advertize, and I suggest this, actually, in Molly Mormon land. There are a Zillion poor honest folks who have training and such. You have a RAISE to exactly balance the requirement of this. When the people understand that you have a personal secretary and you copy that secretary who compiles your list and keeps your schedule and so forth... well.... what I'm saying is.... you will be able to buy a HELL of a lot of service for $24k per year, out of your RAISE and keep your boat very very afloat. She could turn in your monthly spreadsheet, she will keep track of Stacy's expenses- and Stacy can just turn in her word - this isn't a legal procedure but you want to know where the money is going. Tell Stacy she can report her pain killers as oriental medication, if she wants to. If she takes more than one kind, designatre your own little system for keeping it all straight- codeine can be oriental medication, vicodin can be tibetan clay that prevents yeast sores on her toes. You turn in your poker money, as table-mending, a hobby of yours. It's not about truth for others, just truth and vision for you.

This isn't someone to control Stacy, this is someone who will work for your family. In other words, Stacy can put her to work, too, but only as the secretary can take from your work-work.

I'm just floating the suggestion because there is a lot of avaiable cheap labor, you don't ever have to work with the person nor pay for any expenses - travel, human resources things, because in our world it is all electronic.

Now, you can never ever totally relax. Your secretary should have one "card" assigned to her, and you see the statement- it will have nothing but YOUR expenses on it.

I would start it on a temp basis- hire for three months to see if you can make it work.

You can hire someone who was a CPA, who managed cashflow and can present spreadsheets, and emphasize that you need someone who will also perform needed operations- anything that makes YOU more efficient. Welcome and be good for any new gadgets your secretary says he wants- apple iphones and whatever software he likes, as long as he puts in all your contacts and manages your appointments and deliveries and PROMISES, why do you care? Give your temp the job of convincing you he/she can make your life at work and home ten times easier and will justify her/his paycheck every day.

By the way, it would be totally impressive to the boss. NOT demanding a new face that THEY have to deal with in order to serve as your slave, means that you took care of it by yourself AND you show them that "home" isn't going to be a disaster ever. "Home" functioning is 80% financial control, so taking steps to secure it in a way that doesn't overburden your wife and yet gives you peace of mind suggests that you are really serious about investing in your new role as well.

And if the slave really does make you lots more productive and helps you keep every promise and manages your personal finance and everything you ask,

by gosh, pay em better as you can.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 14, 200909:45 PM:

Sounds like an interesting idea. I'm already paying a maid service and yard service, it sounds along those lines if more complicated and important. Thanks for the suggestion munga.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 14, 200910:02 PM:

I've been trying for years to get Stacy to let me hire a live-in cook/maid. Some desperate 25-30 year old woman who needs the money that I/we could altruistically lift out of poverty. But Stacy, the bitch, won't let me.

KE Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 14, 200910:07 PM:

Maybe she'll buy it if it's a live-in secretary?

Just kidding of course. With y'all. Unfortunately Stacy has no sense of humor about these things.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 14, 200910:17 PM:

Have I mentioned that "Terminator" is the best show on television. Closely followed by "The Unit".

KE
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 14, 200911:25 PM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Maybe she'll buy it if it's a live-in secretary?

Just kidding of course. With y'all. Unfortunately Stacy has no sense of humor about these things.

KE

Your background has fueled those fears, though 100% steady all your married days you have been. Women can remember things before we ever were in the picture, we have vicarious abilities.

KE, the real gold in the idea, is that the BEST situation involves, to be very frank with you, never ever meeting your bookkeeper and personal secretary. DON't GET PERSONAL. BE KIND AN PROFESSIONAL. You are not interviewing a best friend.

And a word of advice- avoid gooey compliments. Like, ever. I have worked with one particular gentlemen for three years, pulled off miracles for him, and he for me, but neither of us goes overboard on the complements, because we keep it professional. Here's the real reason- ------ the day one or the other of us totally ****s up, is the day we still get to rake the other over the coals because we always avoided making our relationship anything but business. We are kind and supportive of each other's family, but the difference is that we support each other IN our own families ("You go off on a date with our spouse, I'll have the papers for you when you get back") but never ("Gosh you are amazing, what would I do without out you?" just "Excellent delivery on that paperwork, I will push forward on tomorrow's needs and prepare the language"). You just can't chastize a person with whom you have ever previously turned the relationship personal.

It can really work, if you remember you owe your wife your loyalty and unconditional love.

You owe your secretary fair practices, recognition and remuneration for job well done, and continually good communication of what is expected.

I recommend you get a male secretary. Women are just too.... weird to work with, they "listen" too much to the alternatives possibilities in what you just said, to have paid sufficient attention to what you did say. Just... an unfortunately observation. The man (and I do recommend Mormon land- these are steady young men at age 24, newly married and desperate for some form of upstanding work and in Utah, they really can get along on two or three k per month) I would start at two k, and add health insurance at month 4. But the thing is, they ought to be self-employed (they then do their own taxes and send you a bi-monthly bill, which you will see come out of your account the same as everything else) so on insurance, you should ask him to prepare a report on where they could obtain the best value in a group insurance program (in other words, you are saying, you don't want to pay for a single-family plan, you aren't obligated to pay any, so make em work to help you help them). That would really be the ticket.

Another really great part about it, is that you aren't making anyone get in a car or dress up. This is a really interesting job and a high stress one, even (when you become good together that, during hours, he is your preparer and other brain).

I understand what you are saying and I think a man would be the way to go too. I'm going to have to reread your original suggestions. I can see the advantages but are you sure this is cost efficient? I mean that is 1/6 of my base salary. And when I've looked at getting insurance for myself or my family when working at jobs that didn't provide it it was very expensive. Should I incorporate myself if I decided on this option? Thanks for all the help. I really like the idea of giving someone a chance to get started. I assume that in these situations the employee has 'other' customers/employers, or will in the future? I can't imagine that just my affairs would take up all of his time and that way he could add to his income. (As long as he keeps the number of people he is working for to a number that allows him to give all equally good service.)

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 16, 200912:52 PM:

IMHO, it wouldn't make any sense to try something like this. There's no way a normal household needs a full time accountant/secretary (or the time you'd be owed for 2k/month even if it's not full time). You can get accounting services for an hourly rate from someone who has other clients, if you decide you need that kind of help. If you want to help someone get started and be their first client, that's fine, but it's not what munga is proposing, AFAICT. (She seems to envision a sort of telecommuting man Friday to handle all of your affairs. But you'd sure have to have a lot going on to need such an assistant.)

(I suspect but don't know for sure that depending on the nature of the services you might need to stick with certified/licensed professionals in order to make sure the contract arrangement is legal.)

I gotta give credit to munga for having creative ideas, but this one is overkill.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 16, 200903:42 PM:

scifi may be right, that the workload doesn't justify a whole person.

In a way I'm trying a little too hard because I know that I have to give people a lot of help to get them to do what I ask of them, nevermind that it is supposed to be their job description. I always blame the school system for creating idiots who can't make something new, they can only copy and fill in the blanks. I mean, if I said, "Here are the bills and the flow, now put it in a spreadsheet, organize the receipts, put all my contacts on my scheduling program and make sure I don't miss any deliveries, prepare the tax return in a way most favorable to me, monitor liquidity level and payment of debts, and review paths for swapping tax obligations with investment opportunities...." I know I would get nothing but a slack mouth. Then again, I personally would have the report ready for you and your spreadsheets generated and your proposals in your box in seven days.

And I'm not suggesting "owning" the person, because employer is just too much work, this would be a "personal secretary cum accountant and facilitator" who could work for others, too.

I love the idea in general. It would make removing hiring and firing and replace it with contract work and terms, professional and performance based.

I DON"T KNOW> i think I could really use such a person and such an arrangement. It isn't that what I need to do is that complicated, but at the end of the day having to do this myself is often a drudgery to the point that I simply get it done. Instead of looking at the cash flows as I could and should be doing, we just send off the bills when we get around to it. We usually send in a couple months worth of payments just incase we don't have a chance to sit down and send in a bill every month. It works. We usually have credit on accounts. And we pretty much don't need to worry about it. But it is sometimes worth considering what if I just paid the bills at set times every month and kept the surplus cash for other things.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 16, 200907:37 PM:

I hit my head pretty bad on Friday, and got stitches. But I'm still getting pretty bad headaches. Not terribly bad, but uncomfortable, and aspirin/ibuprofin isn't really effective. Is that something I should check out, or keep ignoring? I'm going to the doctor again on Wednesday to have the sutures removed, so maybe if it keeps up then I should ask? Thankfully, I'm not any more stupid than before I hit my head, although the first day after I did feel like I was slightly hungover, which I atttributed to the exhaustive effects of only sleeping 1 out of the 3 previous days....
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on March 16, 200908:07 PM:

Call the doctor. Sounds like a concussion, and while there may not be much they can do for it, you should at least let them know that you're still having headaches, and see if they think it's cause for concern.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on March 16, 200908:09 PM:

Jeez, munga, I'm getting the impression you have serious issues (you should pardon the term) with other women. Did you really just say that women can't pay attention because they're too easily distracted by other interpretations?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 16, 200908:24 PM:

Fun,

I have no idea why half the women I have worked with were twits (why didn't they do the primary function, rather than get bogged down in minutea that don't matter or in other words, why did they focus on secondary issues?) or why they were adhering to laws created of caprice (or worse, applicable once based on a single project's bottlenecks) rather than crafting working solutions given that they had the authority to craft solutions.

I actually had a bank VP tell me last week that they couldn't make any submissions to the TALF program (which is under the TARP) because it was not in their lending profile. I wrote back, "I wouldn't suppose it would have been in there, given as how it only was written into law 30 days ago, and opens in 3 days. My request was forward looking. As such, how should one access that program using your bank?" And she wrote back, "I do not have the authority to transact outside of our lending profile." Meaning, until we have already used the program, I can't even make the decision to try the program. This woman knows secured lending like the back of her hand, and the program is simply a new portal for secured lending. She can't see a similarity that would allow her to explore it.

I am disgusted with women in decision-making positions, when confronted with new information. The answer isn't "Well, that's new, so what am I going to do to manage it?" it is almost always, "That's new, so I'll look and see if there is a rule for this new situation written from older material that tells me what to do, and if I can't find it I will just conclude it is impossible without even attempting to create a common-sense solution."

I actually want to call them names. Men, I have noticed, if motivated, are far better at dealing with new, unprecedented structures than women are on average. I have no explanation. Are women paralyzed by fear, insecurity, good-girl aberrations (never doing anything that isn't perfect) or what? Men don't bother with perfection when they know they can be satisfied and I can be satisfied with functionality.

And ladies, why is that creativity important? Because, otherwise.... we will build an electronic platform for it eventually and put your ASS out of a job. Make THINKING CREATIVELY your penchant, not RULEFOLLOWING, and you have got a job forever.

Every time I deal with women in business, I feel like a man (like I have to tell her what to do, or give her permission to think, or something, or she simply won't do it because she is seeking consensus). When I deal with men, I feel normal (like I am myself, just managing issues, juggling instruments and moving on to the next thing).

IT IS ME, I know it, but it is a consistent impression that bugs the FREAKING HELL OUT OF ME.

I submit that this may speak more to your own comfort in feeling like (whether you actually are or not) an outsider than to externalities, and that you may well be constructing reasons to feel "other" in order to achieve that feeling of comfort, and that, further, you may find this more difficult to do among other women (because, my dear, for all that you are a bit combative and determined to think outside of whatever boxes you can identify, you are more than a little of a consensus-seeker than you seem to realize. Anyone who seeks to persuade is, by definition). Thus, you use the awesome power of the human brain to construct, define, and apply categories to create a way in which these other women are Not Like You, which isn't necessary when working with men, who are already Not Like You.

Because you are not, in my observation, someone who extrapolates from smallish samples to All Of Humanity in general, and that is what you do when you speak of "how women are" and "how women work" I do not buy that this is indeed a reasoned opinion at which you have arrived, absent personal and emotional motivations.

The thing is, Fun, I don't dictate. I say, "Here is the riddle, and here is the solution we have thought of, and maybe here's another, and if you have another solution or a different one we'll go that way."

Still, same result. How is it consensus-seeking when we don't care if they agree with us, just that they craft (per their job title and responsiblity and authority) ANY working solution? Why would we be picky?

Sample size: My sample size is about 100 women, in about 40 different organizations- government and private. It is a small but remarkably consistently-performing sample.

I am thinking about why the men might be appearing to perform better, given as how I do not think there is any significant difference in mental abilities.

It appears to be will.

So, I'm wondering if men just try to pull out the usual stops for me because I'm a smartish kinda-impressive lady, and women don't believe in pulling out stops for anyone and especially not another girl.

Also, I am wondering if men are less-ashamed about being money-motivated. EVERYONE is money motivated (this is why they show up for work) but I will note that men do not appear to shy away from embracing the fact. Maybe it is because, somewhere, women feel that they should be more angelic, serving for the sake of goodness, like their great-grandmother who provided food to the poor during the depression. Maybe the difference in performance has to do with not having any mentalblock against the motivators?

Munga,Out of curiosity, what is the sample size of Men from which you draw your comparison?

I find that many (often I would say most but I'm happy today - I had a good nap) people are as you describe your sample of Women. I just wonder whether the Men you deal with are the better of the sample that have risen to their positions.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 17, 200912:58 AM:

I dunno. I hate to say it, but when the man hands us off to a woman, it almost always means that we're being deflected. When the woman hands us off to the man, we might see the crafting of something. We don't care if it looks like a dog or an elephant when its done as long as it walks.

Another recent example- We were interacting with the Florida PSC to invoke performance upon an existing law. The man with the authority was preparing to work, but political forces intervened so that he passed the invocation off to a woman, who has stated she simply will not be processing anything.

Someone has to explain to me, why men appear to have their positions to do the business, and women appear to have their positions to prevent it.

I'm hormonal, I suppose, and very disgusted in general with a lot of women who cave, I mean ABSOLUTELY CAVE when their job requires the smallest amount of deduction.

These are public servants, for Goshsakes.

Let me give one more example:

We are talking to the Dallas Federal Reserve. We have a discount valuator on the phone, she is looking at the new legislation that says, "any collateral to be presented for REPO," and then she is looking at more legislation that says, "anyone can do REPO" and we say, "We read that as anyone can bring any collateral for REPO" and like a sane, competant person she agrees.

Then.

She talks to her folks, and finds and OLD LAW that preceeds this legislation that says, "Only X, Y and Z can do REPO." and EVEN THOUGH she is aware that legislation changes and what was true yesterday is trumped by new law today, she decides that she will follow the OLD LAW.

Why?

Because it is written there. In black and white.

I wanted to reach through the phone......

So, I'm sitting here thinking.....

What's wrong with women? Why did she second-guess herself in the first place?Why did she cave to "convention" when she had her new parameters, hot off the presses?Why did she ever talk to anyone who is NOT in charge of her OWN function, and let them tell her how to do it?She's not a bad person, but how can I ever begin to understand what goes on inside her head?

Of course we were nice and hung up. Another dead end because she wants to be. Women are like the kiss of death to a competant transaction and I can't figure it out. I absolutely can't say, "Ann, what are you thinking? Are you in your job to handle new things in old ways, or did they pay a human to do it because it involves some thinking and adjustment?"

Have any of your dealings with men led to successful financing and utility contracts of the kind you've been seeking? I've gotten the "not" impression...and you have freely criticized a lot of those men as stupid and corrupt.

So, is it men=corrupt and women=docile rule followers? Or do we just hear about the bad ones?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 17, 200901:39 PM:

The men at least tend pass us up the chain (because it is always difficult- public entities are supposed to serve the public but they have very little experience doing so- they only have experience serving politically favored entities- and as for the banks- they have taken bail out and so become defacto public servants) until we either get to a man who can, or a woman who won't.

Right now, we are putting together the file of all the refusals of the banks to perform per the TALF (there are women everywhere, eventually) in order to prepare the argument that the intended counterparties refuse to perform in order to justify exigent circumstances that allow direct access minus the requirement of the participation of the unwilling. This is being prepared for the Treasury. And we are now dealing with men.

It isn't as simple as saying "if men are so great, then you'd have performance by finding a man" because.... all transactions require about 8 parties at the table. If you get seven there, you have nothing to do. So, we get six and seven there all the time, but eventually, we can't avoid the softer sex problems and we do not have lift-off.

We'll keep you posted.

The idea isn't to fix any one bank; we'd drain that bank. The idea is to tap into the jugular thereby avoiding the requirement to have 8 people at the table and only the need for about the 3 who have been consistently willing- the political sub-divisions and the investors and the IP contributors.

I unfortunately cannot report a single success story involving a woman, bringing her piece to the table effectively.

I'm not a misogynist, I'm sure of that. But then.... how do I explain this phenomenon? What do I do with the facts as they are?
Posted by yossarian22c (Member # 1779) on March 17, 200902:29 PM:

I think this comes back to the age old argument of asking for directions. It's the same thing psychologically if there are no directions (rules) to go by the man is more likely to make it up as he goes along while the woman is more likely to ask for directions (rules). What you’re describing seems to be the same phenomenon just with work rules instead of directions.
Posted by Funean (Member # 2345) on March 17, 200903:46 PM:

Of course, I always lean toward this argument.Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 17, 200903:50 PM:

Ah.

That might be it. But, since when do women freeze up when the asphalt disappears and gives way to forest and open possibilities? Why not say, "I get to lay this road however I can make it work, I am, after all, a road builder per my authority."

quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Have any of your dealings with men led to successful financing and utility contracts of the kind you've been seeking? I've gotten the "not" impression...and you have freely criticized a lot of those men as stupid and corrupt.

So, is it men=corrupt and women=docile rule followers? Or do we just hear about the bad ones?

I cannot tell that there is any difference in sex on the corruption side. Both are about equally "in it."
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on March 17, 200906:09 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga:

quote:Originally posted by Pete at Home:

quote:Let me give one more example:

We are talking to the Dallas Federal Reserve.

OK, that's a relief right there. Glad that your sample was not just Utah women.

About three of the sample I mentioned were women from Utah. But is there some reason you might have thought my Utah-sample was larger than 3%?

The fact that you live and work in Utah.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 17, 200906:51 PM:

Pete, I live in Oregon, and I don't work in Utah.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 17, 200909:56 PM:

Played my Tuesday game again last night. Only $575 this time. But in my defense I wasn't dealt a pocket pair bigger than Jacks, I had them twice, all night. So I really had to work for my pots and be disciplined enough to hit on the flops or get out all night. And there were four other guys that were pretty decent players, so instead of me taking from nine other guys there were five of us taking from the other five. I think $1000 nights in $1/$2 cash games are going to be few and far between. I plan on building up my stake, keep winning tournaments and low level cash games and then move up to the bigger tourneys and higher level cash games. They exist, but it is a whole nother ball game, and I'm sure most of the players at that level are pretty good. But, I'm not greedy. I'm taking my time. And having a lot of fun. Fun and Five hundred dollars here, three hundred there adds up although I don't see most of it. So far Stacy has spent most of it and Jake just got "Resident Evil 5", and there is another game he just "has" to put on hold today so he took $70 dollars of my winnings last night to get that done.

On the woman subject; although there are very few women that play "cash" poker, there are some really good ones that play tournament poker. At the local and professional levels.

Funean was right. Concussion. Got stitches out today by a hot doctor and a hot doctor in training. It was sweet, they were all like, "lie down ".

Despite what the Mormon missionaries told me last night, my prayers to God were not answered, as although I got hot doctors, they weren't handing out prescription pain pills like candy. My prayers to Dionysus, Shiva, and Belphegor were similarly wasted.
Posted by elk (Member # 6369) on March 18, 200903:02 PM:

God answered your prayers with a simple and polite 'No, I'd rather see you suffer'
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 18, 200903:39 PM:

That pain brought to you by the Plan of Salvation, for your spiritual growth.
Posted by The Drake (Member # 2128) on March 18, 200905:04 PM:

munga,

I wonder if part of your conflict might be that you are an Innovator, or Early-Adopter.

You are already applying new law that is only 30 days old, and you get frustrated that not everyone is willing to take advantage of new possibilities. But, in general, unless it is a prohibitive law, it will follow the same adoption pattern as any other new "product".

If you look at the Achievers category, you will find that... "They value consensus, predictability, and stability over risk, intimacy, and self-discovery." These are also successful individuals, but they prefer stability. In some cases, that may blind them to possibilities or unavoidable change.

One thing to note is that your perception of the gender bias may be accurate, and not all in your head as some are suggesting. Women are on average more risk-averse than men. Especially when it comes to finance.

Embracing the possibilities that the new laws create is inherently risky, there's your bias. Note carefully that what they are doing is not any less valid than what you do.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 18, 200906:31 PM:

quote:Originally posted by The Drake:Note carefully that what they are doing is not any less valid than what you do.

Well, that depends on how you look at it.

I want to do X, please let me pass.

I don't like X, you can't pass.

But its nothing to you, let me pass.

But I don't like X, so no one gets to pass.

It seems to interfere a lot with everyone else---- the fact is that they are a conduit portal that is blocked and saying this is a valid position is agreeing that it's just "ok" to have the doors of finance locked for people.

On the other stuff, yes, that is all prolly true.
Posted by The Drake (Member # 2128) on March 18, 200907:07 PM:

Yes, we would have been a lot better off if some of the doors of finance had not been jacked wide open.

It's legal! Let's all do it and facilitate it now!

Not such a good idea in general terms. With more friction, fewer CDO, CDS, and MBS would have been a lot less prevalent - and the crash would have been softer.

Of course, there would have been bank investors and partners who would have howled that the bank was not taking advantage of this great new way to make money...
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 18, 200907:16 PM:

Drake.

Remember the transaction is:

Take my Treasury-transacted bonds and give them to the treasury in exchange for money. Then, we will bring the money back to you, and you have to give us the Treasury-transacted bonds back again. That's why it is called a REPO- it goes in, and comes right back out at the Risk Free Rate (1.5% ish).

It's not like we were asking for a credit card.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 19, 200912:25 PM:

I missed it. Why doesn't Ken get the internet anymore? And is there anything we can do about it?

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 19, 200912:27 PM:

I got the idea it was to save money, so in that sense, maybe there is something that could be done. (No idea if KL would accept it.)
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 19, 200903:36 PM:

I bet he would from his friends. God knows he's entertained us for a long time. And it couldn't be that expensive.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 19, 200904:43 PM:

Hmm, anybody know his phone number or snail mail address? Not sure how to contact him if he's offline.
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 19, 200905:44 PM:

I'm about ready to chip in. I am having major pangs.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 20, 200902:55 AM:

"God answered your prayers with a simple and polite 'No, I'd rather see you suffer' "

Hmm.. Well if that's the case, then God can go **** himself
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 20, 200907:21 AM:

Dude, you seem to be clearing an extra 2-3K off poker a month. That's some decent supplementary income (at least in my universe it is...)
Posted by Brian (Member # 588) on March 20, 200911:09 AM:

On the subject of KE's need for a private secretary to make appointments and such, combined with his new level of income :

The American Express 'black' card offers free concierge service.

Other credit cards might, as well.

And Tommy - You had a hot doctor and a hot doctor-in-training urging you to lie down and let them take care of you, and you were praying to God that the two of them would offer you...drugs?!?

on the private accountant thing, I'm thinking about doing this myself.

If I do it, wanna share a human? I mean, if we start it out and there are two of us, that is a small client base. And maybe I can say "I want this for my accounts, and this and look at that...." and you would benefit from having an accountant who has a little broader ideas in his head.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 20, 200904:25 PM:

Didn't you know? Tommy has so many hot coeds throwing their bodies (and craven hopes for love *nods to munga*) at him that he hardly needs that. Drugs, however, don't come so cheap.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 20, 200906:31 PM:

"And Tommy -You had a hot doctor and a hot doctor-in-training urging you to lie down and let them take care of you, and you were praying to God that the two of them would offer you...drugs?!?"

Hey, I don't need to pray for what I already know is coming. Scifi is right, three way with my doctors? Easy. Drugs? Not so easy
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 20, 200908:10 PM:

Now that I'm 75%/25% or 60%/40% inside/outside training for the Sales Manager job, I'm sitting at a desk a lot more. Fortunately there is a 24 Hour Fitness five minutes down the highway and I went and got a membership there. It was only $40 down and $29 a month. And I pay month to month. (Weird cause when I was a kid and all we had was President and First Lady it was like a $100 a month and you had to sign a contract giving up your first born.) My how things have changed.

Anyway, this last week I have been going to the gym on my lunch hour, working one or two body areas and swimming laps in the Olympic size pool. Then I get in the hot tub and relax for about fifteen minutes, shower, dress and go back to work. I can't tell you how much better I feel now than when I was spending all day in the office and or going out for a quick burger and rushing back to the office. If I was running the company I would offer this to all employees. Bet we could get a good price as big as we are. No doubt it would make for a healthier more relaxed office atmosphere. I'm going to get back in shape. I weighed myself and I weigh 195. About 10 or 15 pounds too much depending on muscle mass. The guy that was testing me is a national karate champion and when I put my foot in his face he was like; "That is unnaturally limber. Do you stretch a lot?" And I don't anymore, but I think karate as a kid made me extremely flexible. I can still kick over my head about six inches and do the splits without pain. If I can just get my wind back, tighten up my muscles, and lose a little bit around my midsection I will be very happy.

I've cut down on the cokes, am drinking more water, eating smaller portions, not eating after 8 o'clock, and getting the healthiest thing on the menu when I can. Usually baked chicken of some kind or salad. I've even cut out fries completely. And I love fries. (I find the trick is to really imagine the affect the food will have on my body and then I can refrain. Plus, being a complete narcissist helps.

I'm happy with my resolve and results so far. Even if those results are mostly mental and physical relaxation and that 'good' kind of tired you get after working out.

Also, guys, go away ladies, I've been taking Propecia for about three months and my hair has gotten thicker than ever and the receding has reversed. Plus, no drop in libido that they warn you about. Of course if there were I could always use Viagra

(but, as you might know, I happen to LOVE breaking things in....)
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 21, 200908:03 AM:

"Hmm.. Well if that's the case, then God can go **** himself "

A bit late, but this was the post of the week. Fock you, Jo-Bu, I do it myself. Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 21, 200911:48 AM:

Anyone here use eBay a lot? I've never used it before, but I'm pretty confident this guy is trying to rip me off
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 21, 200911:55 AM:

I use it a lot. What's he doing?
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 21, 200907:49 PM:

He closed his account, and I got some emails from "paypal" that the money would be wired to me once I confirmed I ordered it. However, my actual Paypal account has no notice of this. Plus Ebay emailed me and warned that it was suspicious, which I was already thinking. I offered to sell it to the 2nd highest bidder since I am no longer bound to trade with the other guy, who I'm pretty confident is a scammer.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on March 22, 200901:03 AM:

yeah. 100%. Don't work with anyone who offers to conduct a transaction outside the usual process, ESPECIALLY when they are talking wire transfer.
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on March 22, 200902:24 AM:

quote:Originally posted by TommySama: Despite what the Mormon missionaries told me last night, my prayers to God were not answered, as although I got hot doctors, they weren't handing out prescription pain pills like candy. My prayers to Dionysus, Shiva, and Belphegor were similarly wasted.

The mormon missionaries told you that God answering your prayers meant God doing what you wanted, like giving you dope? Methinks there's been some miscommunication.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on March 22, 200910:29 AM:

Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 22, 200902:47 PM:

"The mormon missionaries told you that God answering your prayers meant God doing what you wanted, like giving you dope? Methinks there's been some miscommunication. "

Hey, we all have our own path to find God. I was putting in my earphones as they approached and asked what kind of music I liked. I figured they wouldn't appreciate, "Bitch, I'm a Kill You" by Eminem as much as I do, so I just said I like all kinds of music.

"yeah. 100%. Don't work with anyone who offers to conduct a transaction outside the usual process, ESPECIALLY when they are talking wire transfer. "

Yeah, dude tried to say he sent an extra $100 so I would mail it to his "son" doing missionary work in Zambia or something. Pretty sure TMobile has only set up it's 3G network in 100 American cities... I doubt they have covered Africa yet
Posted by Pete at Home (Member # 429) on March 22, 200902:59 PM:

quote:Originally posted by TommySama: "The mormon missionaries told you that God answering your prayers meant God doing what you wanted, like giving you dope? Methinks there's been some miscommunication. "

Hey, we all have our own path to find God.

Good luck with that one. So long as it's not what the missionaries told you. Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 22, 200903:12 PM:

Ken,

If you read this call me, if you still have my number, or email me yours on GMail. johnlmyers4th@gmail.com

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 22, 200904:02 PM:

Ken,

Sorry, use knightender@gmail.com. I check that one more often.

KE
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on March 23, 200909:47 AM:

quote:with the commiserate raise in salary

I hope for your sake they give you a commensurate salary instead, or Stacy will beat you silly...!
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 23, 200910:44 AM:

They are saying they want me to cut my outside sales down to 10 accounts, since it was unrealistic to think I could cover all of my accounts and be inside over 60% of the time. What that is going to do to my commission numbers is something I hope nobody needs to commiserate about.

I have a meeting with the bosses in 20 minutes and I have gone through our records and picked the 11 highest grossing sales plants or refineries and or ones I have contacts with and think I can grow into major accounts. I hope they let me have what I ask for and adjust my salary commission structure to reflect the fact that I'm being a good soldier and taking one for the team. I'm not crazy about being behind a desk that much. (I don't know if I told y'all but I've already bought a membership at 24 Hour Fitness and started swimming there on my lunch breaks. Except for Friday when I took the entire inside sales staff out to lunch. On my company card of course. )

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 23, 200901:03 PM:

Well, I got 10 out of the 11 I asked for and most of them like Lyondell have several different plants like Lyondell Equistar, Lyondell Basell, Lyondell Citgo, etc. So, I came out pretty good.

Then the boss asked me to come to his office for a private meeting. There he thanked me for what I've done for the company and told me that he wanted me to know that I have a lot of options with the company. That he has talked to Wolfgang, (the VP of the entire company, not just our local branch (which is pretty big 180,0000 square feet and over 100 employees) about me and wants me to know that I am "on Wolfgang's radar" and if I want to make the move into Corporate in the future that I have that option.

That would probably mean moving to Long Beach CA, but it's nice to have options.

I can't understand why the economy "apparently" is falling apart and yet I'm doing better than ever? More money, more responsibility, promotions, what is the deal?

KE
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on March 23, 200901:54 PM:

Blind luck, same as in poker Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 4146) on March 23, 200902:09 PM:

I've decided I'm in a love-hate relationship with bureaucracy. When I'm not about to pull my hair out, the insanity of it all can be so absurdly amusing I can't help but want to laugh. It's almost something out of Hitchhicker's Guide.

"Oh, you have a registration block? Well, first you must pay the bill via check, with name, address, phone number, social security number, favourite colour, most hated movie made from a book, and your pet's mother's maiden name written on your check. In triplicate. Next, you need a form 54-K9, available only to those who know the secret password, uttered lovingly to the statue on the quad at exactly midnight as the harvest moon casts it aglow in moonlight. Knock three times on the base, and the stairs leading down to the basement will appear. If you can navigate amid the pitch dark, past the locked doors, barbed wire, and puma, you will find the form locked in a lockbox that will open only when the New York Times crossword puzzle is complete.

Take that to the gates of He-- er, Financial Aid (don't pay attention to the "abandon hope" bit above their doorway), and exchange the completed form for a small slip of paper. Fold it into an origami swan before the end of Tchaikovsky's '1812 Overture.' Once that is done, the block will be removed in 6 to 8 weeks."

I'm almost scared to type this for fear it will inspire some bureaucrat, somewhere, to better their craft... Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 23, 200902:16 PM:

quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder:

I can't understand why the economy "apparently" is falling apart and yet I'm doing better than ever? More money, more responsibility, promotions, what is the deal?

KE

KE, if I were you, I would sometime, anytime, whenever you have floor, help the people around you understand what is happening---

(I say this because EVERYONE you work with is feeling same slight queesiness as you are)

explanation for your boom: All manufacturing facilties are trying to retro-fit equipment in order to NOT be chopped by the new environmental and sustainable movement. Obama is injecting lots of money to do that- that means you have two major points of growth that your company should make a point to be THE go-to for your parts.

Will it last forever? Nothing last forever- the Train was bangbusters until it was replaced by the Airplane. But there is nothing at all wrong with telling everyone in your company that your company will be servicing the nation's needs for these parts today.

That might sound a little magalomaniac, but really it will calm people down. If you are working with the slightly less thoughtful crowd they won't know WHY their job is secure today and will be constantly "holding back" a little ... a natural weariness. Having someone perform the kindness of explaining things to them tells them who will provide a framework to work together.

It will also help people who are feeling guilty- or that they don't quite deserve to be OK while others are suffereing- it is PUTTING money back into circulation (your company will pay you and you will pay the grocer and the piano teachers and the ice cream men) and this means you guys are PATRIOTS for being the infrastructure-component-contributor that America needs!

The only thing I noticed lacking about your website was the that MTBF and pricing matters were not visible.

I've decided I'm in a love-hate relationship with bureaucracy. When I'm not about to pull my hair out, the insanity of it all can be so absurdly amusing I can't help but want to laugh. It's almost something out of Hitchhicker's Guide.

Or, like something out of "Bureaucracy" (also written by Douglas Adams).
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 24, 200904:23 PM:

Things I wonder:

Why don't they put pop and candy machines on the top floor of buildings (or at least a climbing rope if it's a short building). If people really want that stuff, they should burn a few calories to get it

If you lose both your legs in war, do you require less calories?

There are thousands of white, upper middle class girls starving themselves to death in America right now, does anybody care about them?

Will a Mexican jumping bean jump for less than an American jumping bean? Is there an American jumping bean? Why not?
Posted by Lina Inverse (Member # 6361) on March 24, 200907:13 PM:

Because capitalism, maybe (you'll need more calories per unit weight because basal metabolic rate is unchanged but the metabolic cost of things like walking increases, but you'll also have less mass and I'm not sure how that would balance out), yes, and jumping beans can only be grown in one small region in Mexico Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on March 25, 200908:08 AM:

Damn socialist:

quote:There are two ways of being happy: We may either diminish our wants or augment our means - either will do - the result in the same; and it is for each man to decide for himself, and do that which happens to be the easiest. If you are idle or sick or poor, however hard it may be to diminish your wants, it will be harder to augment your means. If you are active and prosperous or young and in good health, it may be easier for you to augment your means than to diminish your wants. But if you are wise, you will do both at the same time, young or old, rich or poor, sick or well; and if you are very wise you will do both in such a way as to augment the general happiness of society. -Benjamin Franklin

Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 25, 200909:39 AM:

Nothing reminds me more that we are basically animals than the morning migration, err, commute.

KE
Posted by Lobo (Member # 89) on March 25, 200909:43 AM:

quote:Originally posted by DaveS: Damn socialist:

quote:There are two ways of being happy: We may either diminish our wants or augment our means - either will do - the result in the same; and it is for each man to decide for himself, and do that which happens to be the easiest. If you are idle or sick or poor, however hard it may be to diminish your wants, it will be harder to augment your means. If you are active and prosperous or young and in good health, it may be easier for you to augment your means than to diminish your wants. But if you are wise, you will do both at the same time, young or old, rich or poor, sick or well; and if you are very wise you will do both in such a way as to augment the general happiness of society. -Benjamin Franklin

Sorry, the key words of "it is for each man to decide for himself" doesn't quite work with most socialists I know...
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on March 25, 200909:59 AM:

Do you feel coerced by the current socialist regime to do things that augments the general happiness of society? BF was observing that only the very wise person will feel that s/he should. If you are very wise and do as he suggests, are you acting differently than a "socialist" would?
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on March 25, 200910:12 AM:

"No living being can be happy, or even exist, if his needs are not sufficiently proportioned to his means" - Durkheim

(See, even I can pull quotes out of my ass. You're not so clever!!!) Methinks Benjahomie took the same Social Theory class I did

I'll be at Palace Station with 350 other MINI/Mini maniacs starting late tomorrow night.

I need this time off.
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 4146) on March 25, 200911:54 PM:

quote:Originally posted by munga: Hitochi- that was classic!

Thanks. Glad it was amusing.

quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:

quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi:

I've decided I'm in a love-hate relationship with bureaucracy. When I'm not about to pull my hair out, the insanity of it all can be so absurdly amusing I can't help but want to laugh. It's almost something out of Hitchhicker's Guide.

Or, like something out of "Bureaucracy" (also written by Douglas Adams).

Oh wow, now that's cool. I'd never heard of that before, but it sounds great! I wonder if it'd be possible to even find a copy of it, and a way to play it on a newer OS. Anyone know?
Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 26, 200912:18 AM:

Hitochi-

Jim - *blows on dice, for luck*

Take care and revitalize- the world will still be here to afflict you when you return!
Posted by DaveS (Member # 2734) on March 26, 200908:00 AM:

Have fun, jim. Try not to gamble drunk. Posted by munga (Member # 6006) on March 26, 200901:00 PM:

Have any of the other Facebookers noticed that every Free tool, advance, system, program, invention, combination and intellectual property that is offered on the sidebar is ALWAYS found/shared by a mom from my own hometown?

I think it is pretty darn cool that all the smart and capable housewives are from my own precious near-me-ness. That strong trend may even suggest that I, also, and extremely talented and capable.

I got interesting news two days ago. A little birdie told me that Haley Barbour of MS is also going to be refusing Stimulus money. The reason is that it comes with transparency-strings and that means that it will be visible if Barbour takes money and doesn't put it out to the projects but instead routes it to his friends (such as two years ago, he routed 82 million away to his friend Mr. Topazi of Mississippi Power for their "slush fund"). He is also getting the party and money behind supporting the ousting via election (some mayoral votes in May) those who have been calling for Stimulus money for their infrastructure projects. This way, there won't be any Mayors calling for money for the people, if they've been replaced.

One of my exes was pretty heavy into the dog showing/breeding world (Best in Show isn't far off) with golden retrievers. Show quality pups were around the $1K mark and pet quality pups were on the lower side...of course, I'm recalling most of this from earlier this decade, so I could be a bit off.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 29, 200903:46 AM:

I proved tonight what I already knew; I should never play poker after having imbibed. I went to a sports-bar with some old high school buddies and some poker buddies and had a few Crown and Sevens and when they went home early I hit a poker room. And even though I didn't play terrible I lost $160. Luckily the money that Stacy transferred into my Poker Account hadn't gone through and I didn't have much to lose. It was like playing with a blind fold on.

I tell y'all about my wins so I think it only fair that I tell y'all when I play stupid. Plus, I didn't know these guys and had no read on them even if I had been on top of my game. I never play ball or poker intoxicated, and I shouldn't have tonight. Luckily I lost the minimum. In fact I spent more at the bar buying drinks for my buddies than I did at the poker room. Still, I don't like looking like a amateur.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on March 31, 200911:41 AM:

Two more root-canals yesterday. I am seriously considering giving up Cokes. That was my tenth and eleventh root canals. But of the twelve hundred dollars it cost I only had to pay $550. Of course, that blows my insurance for the year.

KE - I was so scared I was going to end up needing a root canal while I was in Iraq. I've never had a toothache before and I started getting bad ones. They just told me I was good for the time being, and to seek medical attention when I got back in the states. I was like, "Umm, if I have a cavity, will my teeth be READY TO FALL OUT in eight months?"

But no, it's just that I need to get my wisdom teeth removed at the ripe old age of 25... and I'm not too thrilled about that, either.
Posted by Lina Inverse (Member # 6361) on April 01, 200901:07 AM:

I'm up too late looking at the timeline of Internet memes and being overcome with nostalgia. It's kind of scary how many of these I remember.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 01, 200907:10 AM:

Diet? I might as well shoot myself and end it all.

OR, these last two root canals were the least painful I've ever had. When I got my first one at nine it was like Nazi torture. But this one was two, no pain, and done in 45 minutes.

Of course this dentist is high dollar, everything state of the art, but they really have come a long, long way.

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 01, 200908:30 AM:

I work with a gentleman from India and I said "Nameste" to him the other day and we have been buddies ever since. It's amazing how happy people are when you (I bet it is even a bigger deal for us arrogant Americans) attempt to address them in their language or acknowledge their customs and traditions.

So, does anyone else know any greetings or anything in Indian?

And yes I realize that I'm harder on American religions than foreign ones. But that's because American ones are in my face.

I don't know any Hindi. I work with a bunch of Indians, though. I'm not sure how to use "Namaste." Wikipedia says it's customary to bow, with palms together in front of the chest and fingers pointing up. How'd you deliver it, KE?

Just like that. I've seen it done. I'm not totally clueless. Although if it had been insulting for someone that is obviously not Indian or of that religion to do it, I guess it could have gone over badly. But it didn't.

"In the poker game of life, women are "the rake." Worm, "Rounders" (Ed Norton)

For those of you not familiar with "the rake" that is the percentage that the House takes out of each pot. And if the rake is too big, too much, you can't win.

I was thinking about that because I lost last night. Just $200, but it sucked. And worse because when I inquired about the rake at this place they told me it was 10% for the first hundred in the pot and %15 after that. So if there is $300 in 'the pot' the rake = $55. Most of the time if you bet $50 you only win $40, and then you 'toke' the dealer $2, so that is $12 or 6 calls of the big blind and chances to get lucky on The Flop. So, even when you win, you are losing. I won't be going back there. And I'm not saying I agree with Worm. I understand where he is coming from, but that doesn't mean I agree with him.

KE
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on April 02, 200907:04 PM:

I don't get why the rake would go up at higher dollar pots. Seems an odd rule, and rather discourages the high betting that would benefit the house.

Oh, btw, I'm surprised the house can take any of the pot. I figured if you're gambling at a bar they let you use the facility so you'll buy drinks. Taking a piece of the action seems like running a casino to me.
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on April 03, 200908:24 AM:

DVDs kind of suck. They're too easy to scratch and break.

I wonder if flash memory might come down in price enough to compete with DVD for digital media distribution in the brick & mortar world, or if online distribution will be the norm that displaces DVD.
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on April 03, 200910:57 AM:

Scifi, I have about 500 DVD quality movies, and tons of other stuff on a terrabyte I bought last year for 250. It's only like half full. Definitely cheaper
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on April 03, 200910:59 AM:

You paid $250 for a terabyte? Cluck.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 03, 200911:00 AM:

Oh yeah, Sci, it is illegal for them to take a percentage. And it is exactly like running a casino. But when these place get busted (very rarely) only the owner gets taken to jail. Not the players.

I called another place and they take 10% up to $10 and that is it. Quite a difference.

Oh, and on that high dollar rule; I used to work for this international company called "Swagelok" and they payed us ten percent on our sales up until a certain mark and then they cut it back to 5! (It is sometimes referred to as "Chinese-overtime.) So, salesmen would sale until they hit there mark and then start delaying sales until the next month. (Not only would you be losing money if you didn't, but if you sold all that you could in one month and then came up short the next month you might get nothing.) Even my softball teams were smart enough to figure out that you should offer people 'more' for doing better. (100 for hitting over .700, 25 a homerun, 100 if you win the tourney, 100 if you make the All-Tournament team, 200 if you make MVP, etc.) Of course they were more interested in winning than making money. I guess softball is unAmerican.

KE
Posted by IrishTD (Member # 2216) on April 03, 200902:27 PM:

Storage is cheap scifi...most expensive 1TB internal HD on newegg is $160 right now (next was $130, most were under $110)
Posted by scifibum (Member # 945) on April 03, 200902:38 PM:

Oh, I know. I think Tommy paid too much. (Kind of depends how early last year, I think.)
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 03, 200903:36 PM:

I've figured it out. The North Koreans are terrified that we may be stupid enough to elect Palin in 2012 and that is why they are building a missile that can reach Alaska!

Save Sarah Palin! I may think she is a dangerous nutcase...Oh who am I kidding...of course I think she is a dangerous nutcase, but she is an AMERICAN nutcase and we shouldn't let Little Kim take her out!

KE
Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on April 03, 200908:33 PM:

More like fall 2007 than last year
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 03, 200911:03 PM:

Glen Beck was on Bill O'Reilly tonight and O'Reilly was forced to actually forcefully defend President Obama!

How whacked does Beck, who believes Obama is the devil and we are destined for fascism, have to be to have Bill O'Reilly loudly and forcefully defending Barack Obama?

It was so bizarre that I recorded it and I'm going to watch it again tomorrow when I'm not sleepy and..."feeling soo good" .

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 04, 200901:39 AM:

I just watched Joe the Plumber being interviewed by Bill Maher. And what I came away with was that McCain would have been much better off choosing Joe as his running mate instead of Sarah Palin.

KE
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on April 05, 200903:43 PM:

One of my beagles, "Winston Churchill Chicken Lee" cost $1275.00.

Not sure why we bought him other than he was insolently cute. Given the chance, I would pay ten times that amount to have him back.
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on April 06, 200912:39 PM:

Sorry about your dogs, Red. When you're ready to replace them, try the pound. They don't have papers (although now and then you'll find a thoroughbred dog there) but you'll find some amazing animals there, and mutts live longer with less health problems.
Posted by Kuato (Member # 6445) on April 06, 200901:07 PM:

Greetings all folkies!

OPEN YOUR MIND, ignore the drool, and enjoy the spring!
Posted by Redskullvw (Member # 188) on April 06, 200902:50 PM:

RB

I have two again. Both are shelter rescues. Both are papered.1 Beagle, 1 Jack Russell's Terrier or if in England 1 Parson's Terrier.
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 06, 200904:11 PM:

We just got good news about our "mutt", Max. We thought he had arthritis or something seriously wrong with him, (and he is the best dog either of us has ever had, just a ball of pure love. I dread the day we will lose him) but when Stacy took him to the Vet Saturday it turned out it was just really bad allergies.

He'd been whining and scratching himself raw for about a week, and he couldn't, or acted like he couldn't, jump on the bed or play, and he'd lost about 5 lbs. But the Vet said he was just playing us. He found out that if he whined pitifully enough and acted like an invalid that one of us would start loving on him so he just kept doing it night and day. Smart, but really annoying.

KE
Posted by RickyB (Member # 1464) on April 06, 200904:38 PM:

Very cool, Red. Rescued and papered.

I seriously prefer mutts. With a pure breed dog, all you're ever gonna do is get closer to a known ideal - which can be amazing, but still. A good mix can produce a unique beauty and package. Can't find a link to a pic of my dog, but you've never seen one like him. Posted by TommySama (Member # 2780) on April 07, 200912:54 AM:

I just realized something. If Obama gets assassinated.. that means Joe Biden is our president.

These guys are promoting themselves in the US. Heard them on our local X96 station this morning. Lyrics are...somewhat lacking. Maybe they'd work with you. Posted by Clark (Member # 2727) on April 08, 200902:12 PM:

You can listen online. Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 09, 200905:45 AM:

Can't get it here at the office, Scifi. I'll listen to it this weekend. Thanks. When I'm rich and famous you shall not be forgotten. Not like whatshisname...

KE
Posted by KnightEnder (Member # 992) on April 09, 200905:49 AM:

And, yes, I'm at the office 3 hours early today. I was five minutes late because of traffic yesterday, so I'm making up for it. Even though I stayed till 5:30 pm and was the last one to leave.

Here, you can work until midnight, but if you get in five minutes late you're a bum. Conversely you can leave at three, but if you got here thirty minutes early you are a hard-worker (even though you left two hours early). Sometimes the world sucks.

But, I just think of my boys, or look at their pictures on my desk and soldier on.