Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
October 31st 2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

That video was a parody he was poking fun at people who don't vote, then bitch about politics...

I thought it was. He sounded sarcastic when he was talking about taking 6 hours out of your entire life to vote being too much effort.

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

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Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
October 31st 2011, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

That video was a parody he was poking fun at people who don't vote, then bitch about politics...

And it was funny because he took it to such an extreme, by advocating something that no sane person in this day and age would actually support.

Oh and he was poking fun at people who complain about voting, who vote without knowing what the candidate stands for, people who complain about politics in general and specifically, people who voted/ would vote Howard (core and non core promises). The video is Australian, however, and here we don't have the option to just 'not vote' as we have mandatory voting. So he wasn't poking fun at people who don't vote and then complain because it's a non-issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr2005

On a broader note, I'm finding the seemingly widespread acceptance of eugenics and sterilisation as viable solutions to the population level both baffling and alarming

You're not the only one.

To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
October 31st 2011, 10:58 PM

Even ignoring population control, Eugenics helps the overall genetic quality of the human race overall. It's the law of nature that the strong survive and the weak die, but with our "moral charity" and aid, all we have done is destroy the natural process of evolution, we need to get back on the right track, and weed out the inferior, improve the quality of life for the genetically fit, and sustain our species into the next milllenium!

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
October 31st 2011, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

Even ignoring population control, Eugenics helps the overall genetic quality of the human race overall. It's the law of nature that the strong survive and the weak die, but with our "moral charity" and aid, all we have done is destroy the natural process of evolution, we need to get back on the right track, and weed out the inferior, improve the quality of life for the genetically fit, and sustain our species into the next milllenium!

We have barely destroyed the "natural process" of evolution. Really... demonstrate how. I understand that there is more equality now between everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean they reproduce the same way.

Evolution is still there. However all these benefits, welfare etc. is helping the weaker ones. I'm not particularly against it because of that, only because there are a lot of assholes sponging off the system.

Plus, goddamit realise not everything is in the genes. You can be born with the best genes in the world and still turn out an asshole. Someone with an IQ of 80 who uses it, is of more use than someone with an IQ of 150 who doesn't because they think they're so much better than everyone else that they don't have to... which in itself proves that they're actually stupid despite whatever tests say.

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
October 31st 2011, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDF

We have barely destroyed the "natural process" of evolution. Really... demonstrate how. I understand that there is more equality now between everyone, but that doesn't necessarily mean they reproduce the same way.

Evolution is still there. However all these benefits, welfare etc. is helping the weaker ones. I'm not particularly against it because of that, only because there are a lot of assholes sponging off the system.

Plus, goddamit realise not everything is in the genes. You can be born with the best genes in the world and still turn out an asshole. Someone with an IQ of 80 who uses it, is of more use than someone with an IQ of 150 who doesn't because they think they're so much better than everyone else that they don't have to... which in itself proves that they're actually stupid despite whatever tests say.

While I agree with your sentiment that genes are not everything, because you're indeed correct, I'm afraid I disagree with your first part. I definitely do believe that we're interfering with evolution. It used to be survival of the fittest, now everybody survives. That in itself is enough to mean evolution no longer is taking place. Then again, we'll probably kill ourselves with our desperation to overpopulate the planet and then once only a few survivors are left evolution should kick start again.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 1st 2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

Even ignoring population control, Eugenics helps the overall genetic quality of the human race overall. It's the law of nature that the strong survive and the weak die, but with our "moral charity" and aid, all we have done is destroy the natural process of evolution, we need to get back on the right track, and weed out the inferior, improve the quality of life for the genetically fit, and sustain our species into the next milllenium!

But then what would be the point? Why is it necessary to survive for survival's sake? If we just decided to throw the poor, disadvantaged, sick, disabled and weak to the wolves, what kind of world would that be?

I don't mean to get all touchy feely on you but I'd rather live in a world that still has some sense of morality than one that's 'strong' simply for the sake of being strong.

As for this whole think about interrupting the natural process, how do you feel about hospitals and medicine?

To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 1st 2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I think they'd be rooting for the bad guys.

I think the point the movie makes is that genes are not everything, which I certainly agree with. Honestly I'd only support some forms of positive eugenics if there were no other solutions. Seems to me the best way to deal with this is to do what this guy says.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 1st 2011, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

Even ignoring population control, Eugenics helps the overall genetic quality of the human race overall. It's the law of nature that the strong survive and the weak die, but with our "moral charity" and aid, all we have done is destroy the natural process of evolution, we need to get back on the right track, and weed out the inferior, improve the quality of life for the genetically fit, and sustain our species into the next milllenium!

I'm usually quite tolerant of the opinions of others, but on this occasion I'm calling you out on this and I'm going to ask you to justify every one of those statements. I await your response with interest.

"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!

If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 1st 2011, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr2005

I'm usually quite tolerant of the opinions of others, but on this occasion I'm calling you out on this and I'm going to ask you to justify every one of those statements. I await your response with interest.

I don't see what there is for him to justify. Although I myself don't fully agree with it, what he says follows simple logic.

There are two ways of looking at it, the moral way, and the a-moral way. He's obviously doing the latter. A large part of being human is having certain morals. Besides our genes, that's one of the main things that differentiates us from animals, so looking at it from an a-moral standpoint should be out of the question for most. By doing what Guile suggests we'd be right in one sense, but wrong in the other sense that we'd be reducing our moral compass to that of insects. All that wasted evolution... lol.

BDF is not trying to call anyone an animal or an insect...

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 1st 2011, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDF

I don't see what there is for him to justify. Although I myself don't fully agree with it, what he says follows simple logic.

It follows simple logic provided that the original premise - that eugenics will indeed have those outcomes - is sound. It is that which I challenge. He is making statements of fact with no supporting evidence, and on something like this I feel that needs challenging.

"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!

If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 1st 2011, 09:09 PM

You sound like you're turning this into potentially quite a technical scientific debate over how evolution and gene pools work.

If we systematically kick the people with "bad genes" out of our gene pool, we'l be reducing over the time the chances of such "bad genes" being passed down. I don't think science and technology have developed anywhere near enough yet to make this kind of action feasible anyway. There'd be no point in "weeding out" some of the bad genes, and then letting them spread across the population again because we didn't have enough resources to finish the job.

There are more economical and more ethical ways to deal with the population problem then eugenics. Besides, eugenics isn't about population control at all frankly, only about improving our gene pool. Somehow it got tangled up in this debate because someone said something about killing off the inferior half of the human race.

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 1st 2011, 09:33 PM

There's another factor in this debate/discussion that I feel has been mostly overlooked or ignored.

For the past half-century, one of the strongest commodities in economics, and partial triggering points for various wars/conflicts has been oil. It's an incredibly valuable asset to have in a country as a raw resource, and every nation in the world uses it to at least some extent (generally, the more advanced and complex the economy is, the more oil is used).

While it's true that the world could run out of oil at some point, I'm fairly sure that we will have mostly moved on to other energy sources by the time that happens. This will create a fundamental shift in global economics, in which nations that are overly reliant on oil exports (such as the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Nigeria) will have a substantial loss in economic flow, and will become weaker in the global economic chain. But the economics of oil is not the problem of the growing population. There's a far more pressing need for a far more valuable resource: water.

It's simple and basic knowledge that humans can't live without water. However, we're already seeing places where water shortages and draught have caused a mass exodus of people who are searching for water and all of the subsequent commodities that water allows for (such as food). In places like Somalia, recent draught has compounded humanitarian issues that started with the Somalian civil war and subsequent Islamic insurgency against the fledging government.

As areas around the world face water shortages, contamination, and steep costs of desalinization, it may come to the attention of many people that the place with the most fresh, unfrozen water in the world is the area in and around the Great Lakes in North America. The land from the American midwest to southern and western Ontario and on into northern Canada contains not only the Great Lakes (five massive bodies of fresh water), but also countless smaller freshwater lakes, streams and rivers.

I can't say with any certainty that there would be "water wars" in this part of the world, but it definitely has great potential to become an international hotspot. Water is the most important resource on earth (except perhaps oxygen, but that's far easier to come by), but only a small fraction of the fresh water in the world is contained outside of polar ice caps.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 1st 2011, 10:52 PM

I'm gonna buy me some lakes while they're still "cheap"

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

Even ignoring population control, Eugenics helps the overall genetic quality of the human race overall. It's the law of nature that the strong survive and the weak die, but with our "moral charity" and aid, all we have done is destroy the natural process of evolution, we need to get back on the right track, and weed out the inferior, improve the quality of life for the genetically fit, and sustain our species into the next milllenium!

Oh dear me Guile, what have you got yourself into...

Well, let's see how humans have recently evolved. Malaria is a pretty ugly disease but is treatable by quinine and/or artesunate. It affects parts of Africa, Asia and South America causing ~ 863,000 deaths in 2009. In Africa and India where they have a high mortality rate from malaria because they have EVOLVED to become resistant to it, especially by alpha and beta-thalassemia genes, which are related to sickle-cell anemia.

This leads to my second issue: how do you determine who is "strong" and who is "weak"? In India and Africa where they have extremely high mortality rates of malaria, they evolved to become resistant. In fact, you're advocating for evolution in humans, so these must be part of the "strong" category.

I can rip you off, and steal all your cash, suckerpunch you in the face, stand back and laugh. Leave you stranded as fast as a heart-attack.
- Danko Jones (I Think Bad Thoughts)

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Oh dear me Guile, what have you got yourself into...

Well, let's see how humans have recently evolved. Malaria is a pretty ugly disease but is treatable by quinine and/or artesunate. It affects parts of Africa, Asia and South America causing ~ 863,000 deaths in 2009. In Africa and India where they have a high mortality rate from malaria because they have EVOLVED to become resistant to it, especially by alpha and beta-thalassemia genes, which are related to sickle-cell anemia.

This leads to my second issue: how do you determine who is "strong" and who is "weak"? In India and Africa where they have extremely high mortality rates of malaria, they evolved to become resistant. In fact, you're advocating for evolution in humans, so these must be part of the "strong" category.

Well I'm some super-scientist who can work out "the perfect human", but I assume we'd need a mix of factors. For example, considering we can cure malaria, but we still lack a cure for stupidity () I would say that I'd take intelligence over Malaria resistance.

But yes, I do know about the malaria thing, and at the same time, they have a higher rate of sickle-cell anemia. I 100% believe, and never said that I did not believe, that people are constantly evolving (even to this day). What concerns me, is that used to we left the "slow" kids on the side of the mountain to die (Look up Spartan Eugenics), while now they procreate like the rest of us.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

What concerns me, is that used to we left the "slow" kids on the side of the mountain to die (Look up Spartan Eugenics), while now they procreate like the rest of us.

Wow. Are you kidding me? You're using Sparta as an example of how society should be?

It concerns me that it concerns you that we're not throwing babies off the side of mountains.

To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Wow. Are you kidding me? You're using Sparta as an example of how society should be?

It concerns me that it concerns you that we're not throwing babies off the side of mountains.

I'm just saying, they had some things going for them.

As Dr. John Sulston (Nobel Prize Winning Geneticist) said, "I don't think one ought to bring a clearly disabled child into the world."

When I have a child, I'm not going to bring some disabled mistake into the world, I plan to use IVF to select the best traits between my wife and I to have a superior child. Sure, the cost of $15,000+ per attempt is prohibitive to most families, but I don't plan to play on an even field here, if I can have a superior child, I will do so. I think any good parent would do the same, and want the best for their child.

(On a side note, I loved GATTACA, and do believe that some things can't be shown in genetic tests, but I think that giving "the heart" of a human a good genetic background, is the best thing we can do).

Everything that we are, that we can be, that we will pass on, exists inside a single cell, 10 µm wide, and contains your life. Of course, the raw human being can be molded, like clay, to create a work of art, but why waste your time molding your masterpiece with inferior clay? How can someone, be so foolish as to say that genes don't matter? Eugenics, like a tree, draws its roots from many sources, and no matter what you may think of it, the benefits of Eugenics are scientifically verifiable. No more must we suffer the ills of genetic disease, with the completion of the human genome project, and our exponential advances in information technology, we will soon have the ability to remove imperfection before birth, and create a genetically superior class of humans. Soon after, the technology will become cheap enough that every family will be able to have a fit and healthy child, and we shall make advances in science and medicine, building even faster on our previous growth, becoming more then human. We can transcend the arbitrary restrictions that nature has put on us, such as cancer, heart defects, and lameness, we can become, gods!

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

When I have a child, I'm not going to bring some disabled mistake into the world, I plan to use IVF to select the best traits between my wife and I to have a superior child. Sure, the cost of $15,000+ per attempt is prohibitive to most families, but I don't plan to play on an even field here, if I can have a superior child, I will do so. I think any good parent would do the same, and want the best for their child.

I have to ask: what will you do if your child, despite all your efforts, is not "superior"? What will happen if your child has cancer, is not as smart as you want them to be, or has some other "disability"?

Though I do wonder how much luck you will have at finding a woman who is happy to spend thousands of dollars and go through the hassle of an entirely unnecessary treatment rather than having a child naturally (assuming there are no fertility issues).

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

I have to ask: what will you do if your child, despite all your efforts, is not "superior"? What will happen if your child has cancer, is not as smart as you want them to be, or has some other "disability"?

Though I do wonder how much luck you will have at finding a woman who is happy to spend thousands of dollars and go through the hassle of an entirely unnecessary treatment rather than having a child naturally (assuming there are no fertility issues).

I could always leave them on the side of a mountain?

But seriously, I'd most likely opt for abortion. Also, you think I am the only person in the world who has these views? Sure, most people may not say it so loudly or proudly, but there is a large segment of people who agree with me, I'm sure at least one of them is a woman

IVF is really not a complex procedure, and in the near future, will be able to assist in the creation of a better human. It would still be our child, but only the best of us. I know I'm not "the perfect human", I'm sure that I have some sort of defect somewhere, maybe I have the propensity to alcohol (negated by the fact that I don't drink), I don't know, but I want to see the human race become genetically cleaner.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 10:52 AM

I'm all supportive of filtering out the bad genes before birth. That's fine. It's common sense and doesn't harm anyone. Whether or not I'd agree to abortion is a different debate topic... but if there were signs that the disability was crippling and the newborn would pretty much have a ruined life ahead of it, or even better die aged 3 or 4 of some sort of inevitable heart failure that causes stunted development overall anyway, then I imagine myself being more inclined towards abortion. It's like sparing someone the suffering, euthanasia. Truthfully though, I don't know where really I stand on this. I guess if I had the money to fully provide for someone disabled like that, and improve their life significantly enough to make it worth living, it would change my perspective, but treatments for long term disabilities can add up to hundreds of thousands of pounds over a lifetime.

Thinking of it I think I'd rather pay $15,000 (that Guile quoted) just to null the possibility of any such a disability happening, even if it's very unlikely. Costs will likely drop anyway.

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

I'm just saying, they had some things going for them.

It comes back to the point of being strong for the sake of being strong. Yes, the Spartans were a force to be reckoned with, that's what happens when a society is ruthless and you treat people like soliders to be trained.

Look at Athens and Sparta. Yes, Athens may have eventually sucumbed to Sparta but Athens legacy lives on in culture, art, science and governance. Sparta is remembered for its brutality and brute strength (and a really lame movie that wasn't accurate).

We could be cruel and ruthless and do 'whatever it takes' in an effort to create the perfect society but even if we succeeded, future generations will look back and see the cruelty and ruthlessness, not the end product if there even is one.

Stalin did a lot for Russia's economy but people don't look back with admiration because human life and basic morality can't be the cost of progress. Any progress that there is, is like one step foward, two steps back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

When I have a child, I'm not going to bring some disabled mistake into the world, I plan to use IVF to select the best traits between my wife and I to have a superior child. Sure, the cost of $15,000+ per attempt is prohibitive to most families, but I don't plan to play on an even field here, if I can have a superior child, I will do so. I think any good parent would do the same, and want the best for their child.

There is nothing wrong with hoping that your child is healthy. I think everyone hopes that. Even people who find out their child has a disability in the womb and choose to abort- I don't judge them. It must be an awful position to be in, having to weigh up things, like; will your child have a normal life? Are you in a position to care for them?

The point is, though, that's not your goal. You're not wondering if you can give a child the best chance of a good life, or the good of your family; you're trying to make a super baby. It's ridiculous.

Phrases like 'disabled mistake' and 'superior child' really just make you sound like an militant, prejudiced elitist who shouldn't even be considering becoming a parent.

I know someone has already mentioned this, but I really fear what would happen if you had a child who had an undectable disability, or developed a disability later in life. I wonder if they would life up to your standards and lf you would still love them.

Oh, and back to that 'disabled mistake' gem, there are plenty of disabled people in the world who have achieved great things, many have achieved more than you will in your life time. I hope that if I have children I can raise them to be good, happy people, and I would prefer to have a child with disabilities any day than someone with your rather non-existent moral compass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

Everything that we are, that we can be, that we will pass on, exists inside a single cell, 10 µm wide, and contains your life. Of course, the raw human being can be molded, like clay, to create a work of art, but why waste your time molding your masterpiece with inferior clay? How can someone, be so foolish as to say that genes don't matter? Eugenics, like a tree, draws its roots from many sources, and no matter what you may think of it, the benefits of Eugenics are scientifically verifiable. No more must we suffer the ills of genetic disease, with the completion of the human genome project, and our exponential advances in information technology, we will soon have the ability to remove imperfection before birth, and create a genetically superior class of humans. Soon after, the technology will become cheap enough that every family will be able to have a fit and healthy child, and we shall make advances in science and medicine, building even faster on our previous growth, becoming more then human. We can transcend the arbitrary restrictions that nature has put on us, such as cancer, heart defects, and lameness, we can become, gods!

Children are not buildings. They are not there to be sculputred into the most impressive structure. You're supposed to love them, you're supposed to raise them to be good citizens and good people, to love them and teach them to love. You're not supposed to care how genetically 'impressive' they are, you're not supposed to beat out every little imperfection, you're not supposed to fill their heads with ridiculous ideas about superiority.

You're not supposed to worry if your child will be 'superior' or 'inferior' and if you do, you shouldn't be having children in the first place.

To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guile

I could always leave them on the side of a mountain?

But seriously, I'd most likely opt for abortion. Also, you think I am the only person in the world who has these views? Sure, most people may not say it so loudly or proudly, but there is a large segment of people who agree with me, I'm sure at least one of them is a woman

IVF is really not a complex procedure, and in the near future, will be able to assist in the creation of a better human. It would still be our child, but only the best of us. I know I'm not "the perfect human", I'm sure that I have some sort of defect somewhere, maybe I have the propensity to alcohol (negated by the fact that I don't drink), I don't know, but I want to see the human race become genetically cleaner.

What I actually meant was if you discovered the "disability" after the child was born. Not all disabilities can be tested for and not all tests give accurate results.

And honestly, I do have a hard time believing that there are many people who have views as... Well, I'm going to say as extreme as yours because I think it is extreme to have unnecessary IVF. And whilst the procedure may not be complex, I can't imagine that having lots of injections and so on is a pleasant experience for someone to go through. Besides of which, there is evidence that IVF actually increases the chances of birth defects in children, which would sort of ruin your entire plan.

I do understand your argument, but I think it is massively flawed. You are basing it on so many assumptions. Like the idea that "bad genes" can just be weeded out and then they are gone forever. The idea that new "bad genes" won't be created. The idea that "bad genes" aren't necessary. And the idea that the world will somehow be better if only near perfect humans exist, which I have a hard time believing since near perfect people are going to be unwilling to do many of the jobs that people with "bad genes" currently do.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 11:50 AM

I only agree with eugenics in the cases of serious inheritable diseases because quite simply the world is a better place without them. However I don't see the point in making 'superior' humans when there's no need. It's not as if humans face any type of threat. I think if we just try and eliminate the major inheritable diseases, put massive funds into Green Energy, do our very best (And that doesn't mean just donate more money) to begin to industrialise Africa and modernise it then we've done all we can for a safe and bright future.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 01:55 PM

I have a better idea of handling the increasing population. Well plenty of ideas.
-Use more protected sex so there are a lot less teenage pregnancy.
-Make it so you can only have 2 kids per couple (if your married) or (if single) one kid per person.
-Or my all time favorite, A world wide game of Russian roulette But instead of having only 1 bullet in the guy have 5 and play in groups of 6. Problem solved.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikamaru

I have a better idea of handling the increasing population. Well plenty of ideas.
-Use more protected sex so there are a lot less teenage pregnancy.
-Make it so you can only have 2 kids per couple (if your married) or (if single) one kid per person.
-Or my all time favorite, A world wide game of Russian roulette But instead of having only 1 bullet in the guy have 5 and play in groups of 6. Problem solved.

Teenage pregnancy is a recognized problem only in developed countries. The greatest mass of the population is in fact in less developed countries. It'd be quite hard to enforce protected sex in those. If you give them a condom they'l probably use it to catch insects with to put them in their soup or something, god knows.

Your second point, again is something that is almost impossible to enforce across the planet, especially in developing countries.

The third point is obviously a joke lol.

The whole issue is generally about educating poorer countries on everything. That will include sex ed. at some point. It's a very big task. Really the best that can be done is to encourage the governments somehow to do this, which I'm not very creative on with ideas. A lot of those countries still like to oppress women... there are a lot of issues.

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

I think if we just try and eliminate the major inheritable diseases, put massive funds into Green Energy, do our very best (And that doesn't mean just donate more money) to begin to industrialise Africa and modernise it then we've done all we can for a safe and bright future.

Off topic, but after what happened with Solyndra and Beacon Energy recently, I can't imagine many people being too thrilled about pumping funds into green energy companies.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliber

Off topic, but after what happened with Solyndra and Beacon Energy recently, I can't imagine many people being too thrilled about pumping funds into green energy companies.

If we don't invest in Green Energy, and I'm not overstating this, the world will be devastated. We'll be back in caveman times. Our resources are running out and very soon we're going to have to get it from somewhere else. We need renewable, clean, green energy and we need to start researching and investing in it.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

If we don't invest in Green Energy, and I'm not overstating this, the world will be devastated. We'll be back in caveman times. Our resources are running out and very soon we're going to have to get it from somewhere else. We need renewable, clean, green energy and we need to start researching and investing in it.

While of course I agree that green energy needs to be invested in and researched, Obama threw over half a billion tax dollars at Solyndra, only for them to go bankrupt. Their execs took huge severance packages, as usual.

Millions are being hurled at incompetent energy companies because of the combination of this 'energy scare' and trying to compete with China on this, who can still build the technology better and cheaper than we ever could have. Pushing debt ridden countries further into financial ruin isn't the best of ideas right now.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

If we don't invest in Green Energy, and I'm not overstating this, the world will be devastated. We'll be back in caveman times. Our resources are running out and very soon we're going to have to get it from somewhere else. We need renewable, clean, green energy and we need to start researching and investing in it.

When I was a kid I always thought it would be awesome if countries could co-operate and build a massive geostationary solar power station up in space, beaming the energy back to earth in a huge microwave beam into the ocean, which would boil water and power turbines. And kill fish .

Lol. But there is the big issue of who would ultimately control such a thing. It would be a power struggle. It could also be a source of a lot of conflict, maybe even war. And if any single energy company somehow got their hands on it, it would be disaster. They'd suck the planet dry of money. And a glitch of 0.001 degrees in the station would probably swipe a deadly super-power microwave beam several kilometres across the earth.

F**KING COOL STUFF. lol

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliber

While of course I agree that green energy needs to be invested in and researched, Obama threw over half a billion tax dollars at Solyndra, only for them to go bankrupt. Their execs took huge severance packages, as usual.

Millions are being hurled at incompetent energy companies because of the combination of this 'energy scare' and trying to compete with China on this, who can still build the technology better and cheaper than we ever could have. Pushing debt ridden countries further into financial ruin isn't the best of ideas right now.

I think Japan's our best chance. They have a motivation to research green, renewable energy given that they have no natural resources, and they have the know-how, the manpower and (unlike 99% of other countries) the good nature to not do something like take huge severance packages.

Either way though, it needs to be done. We're fucked if we don't invest in Green Energy, there's no two ways about it.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDF

Teenage pregnancy is a recognized problem only in developed countries. The greatest mass of the population is in fact in less developed countries. It'd be quite hard to enforce protected sex in those. If you give them a condom they'l probably use it to catch insects with to put them in their soup or something, god knows.

That is incredibly racist. Do you know much about sex education programs in developing countries? Do you know that George W Bush and Ronald Reghan implemented policies which made it very difficult for organisations like WHO to actually do their jobs and help developing countries with sex education?

The issue of not having proper sex education is still an issue in developed countries. Many schools in the USA teach abstinence-only and schools in the UK are not required to talk about contraception or safe sex either, so I have to wonder how many of those teenagers know how to use a condom.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

That is incredibly racist. Do you know much about sex education programs in developing countries? Do you know that George W Bush and Ronald Reghan implemented policies which made it very difficult for organisations like WHO to actually do their jobs and help developing countries with sex education?

The issue of not having proper sex education is still an issue in developed countries. Many schools in the USA teach abstinence-only and schools in the UK are not required to talk about contraception or safe sex either, so I have to wonder how many of those teenagers know how to use a condom.

How the hell is it racist? Because I make a small joke out of it? What bullshit. Nowhere is race even mentioned anyway. I was referring to the level of eduction.

Fucking hell... if you think what I said is even slightly racist, I don't think it's even worth us talking, but no, you said "incredibly racist".

Ditch the political correctness and get factual. Good joke or bad joke... it's still a joke, as shit as it is.

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 2nd 2011, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDF

Teenage pregnancy is a recognized problem only in developed countries. The greatest mass of the population is in fact in less developed countries. It'd be quite hard to enforce protected sex in those. If you give them a condom they'l probably use it to catch insects with to put them in their soup or something, god knows.

Your second point, again is something that is almost impossible to enforce across the planet, especially in developing countries.

The third point is obviously a joke lol.

The whole issue is generally about educating poorer countries on everything. That will include sex ed. at some point. It's a very big task. Really the best that can be done is to encourage the governments somehow to do this, which I'm not very creative on with ideas. A lot of those countries still like to oppress women... there are a lot of issues.

At first my last point was a joke but really now I dont really think soo. Its just as effective as using eugenics to decrease the world population. And my point is more fair. Its all just a matter of luck.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 3rd 2011, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

That is incredibly racist. Do you know much about sex education programs in developing countries? Do you know that George W Bush and Ronald Reghan implemented policies which made it very difficult for organisations like WHO to actually do their jobs and help developing countries with sex education?

The issue of not having proper sex education is still an issue in developed countries. Many schools in the USA teach abstinence-only and schools in the UK are not required to talk about contraception or safe sex either, so I have to wonder how many of those teenagers know how to use a condom.

Yes, Africans not being able to keep their dicks out of their women is certainly "Reghan's" fault....

Is it really that difficult to process putting a piece of damn latex on?

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 3rd 2011, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDF

How the hell is it racist? Because I make a small joke out of it? What bullshit. Nowhere is race even mentioned anyway. I was referring to the level of eduction.

Fucking hell... if you think what I said is even slightly racist, I don't think it's even worth us talking, but no, you said "incredibly racist".

Ditch the political correctness and get factual. Good joke or bad joke... it's still a joke, as shit as it is.

Racism doesn't just mean prejudice/discrimination based on the colour of someone's skin. It also refers to prejudice/discrimination based on someone's national or ethnic origin, which is exactly what you were talking about. You actually didn't mention the level of education anywhere, but if that is what you were referring to, then I believe my points about Western countries interfering with developing countries' sex education and not being that great at sex ed themselves are still valid.

And for the record, I didn't say what I said because I care about political correctness. I said it because your comment was unfair, regardless of whether it was a joke, and I didn't agree with it. Next time I'll avoid using "political correct" terms if it means my points will actually get across.

Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 -
November 3rd 2011, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

Racism doesn't just mean prejudice/discrimination based on the colour of someone's skin. It also refers to prejudice/discrimination based on someone's national or ethnic origin, which is exactly what you were talking about. You actually didn't mention the level of education anywhere, but if that is what you were referring to, then I believe my points about Western countries interfering with developing countries' sex education and not being that great at sex ed themselves are still valid.

And for the record, I didn't say what I said because I care about political correctness. I said it because your comment was unfair, regardless of whether it was a joke, and I didn't agree with it. Next time I'll avoid using "political correct" terms if it means my points will actually get across.

I wasn't discriminating against anyone on the basis of ethnic origin in my post either, or on the basis of anything.

It's almost the same as saying that if the average person from the West was sent to live in the jungle, they'd probably get savaged by the wildlife.

But people are a lot less sensitive with regards to racism in the general direction of white people. So much so that people call out "WRATHIST" when someone makes a comment on people classified as ethnic minorities in the West, even when it's not racist at all.

"I don't care about politics"

Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.﻿