Yesterday afternoon, Twitter called my attention to the following comment on a listserv of SF/F conrunners:

“Instead of insulting us, [Hines] could be using whatever influence he has in social media to help recruit more PoC into our circles. They need to know they’d probably be much more welcome here than they might be elsewhere. (After all, many of us would love to befriend extra terrestrials or anthromorphs.)”

I’m told that others on the listserv quickly pointed out how messed-up it was to compare people of color to aliens and monsters, and that the individual apologized, so I don’t want to spend much time rehashing that part of the comment. I doubt it was deliberately intended to be racist or offensive. But I think it’s worth emphasizing that this kind of unintentional and unthinking hurtfulness is, in my opinion, a big part of our problem.

I did post a snarky and sarcastic comment on Twitter in response to that “recruiting” comment:

Knock, knock. “Hello, I’ve come to spread the good news about fandom, where we love aliens, monsters, and even PoC!”

For the record, I consider myself part of fandom. I love our community. I love the friends I’ve made here. I love this part of my life. But I’m not going to ignore the serious problems we continue to struggle with when it comes to sexism and racism and inclusiveness and so on. And when individuals made racist remarks, or conventions botch their handling of sexual harassment, or another convention chair congratulates themselves on their “colorblindness” when their convention is 97% white, I’m going to keep pointing that out.

On Twitter, I was accused of driving people from SF/F fandom, and making our community look bad. I admit to being rather baffled by this. I thought things like conrunners making ignorant racist remarks were what made the rest of us look bad, not the acknowledgement and criticism of such remarks.

This bugs me a lot. It resonates with the dynamics I’ve seen in abusive families, where the most serious crime isn’t the abuse, but talking about the abuse outside of the family. So yeah, this hits a big old button for me.

Then there’s the complaint that I’m not using my “influence” to recruit other groups into fandom. Which got me thinking more seriously about the suggestion that hey, maybe I should work to try bring more diverse fans into fandom.

I’m sorry, but what the hell do you think I’ve been trying to do???

There are a lot of ways to try to make fandom and conventions more welcoming, and to try to encourage others to join our community. Which do you think is actually going to make people feel wanted — comparing them to aliens and monsters, or publicly denouncing the people who make such ignorant and hurtful remarks? You’ve got voices in fandom saying black people don’t come to cons because those people don’t like SF/F. Then you’ve got voices in fandom saying, “That’s racist bullshit, we don’t all believe that, and we as a community need to do better.”

I know which category I’d prefer to belong to.

Some of the ways I see to try to build a more welcoming community include:

Listening to people who feel excluded or unwelcome, and acknowledging their experiences.

Challenging racist and sexist statements. Even the “unintentional” ones. Both online and in person.

Encouraging conventions to take steps to be more actively welcoming and inclusive and safe.

Examining my own racism, sexism, homophobia, and general ignorance, and trying to learn to do better.

Acknowledging when I screw up.

Publicly acknowledging and applauding the conventions and people who get it right. (Example: Readercon’s follow-up to their sexual harassment screw-up. Yes, the initial response was a mess. But their follow-up should be a model to conventions everywhere.)

Using my platform as a moderately well-known fantasy author to encourage others to recognize and push back against sexism, racism, homophobia, and so on.

I’m not asking for cookies, and I’ll be the first to admit I don’t always get it right. I’ve messed up plenty of times. But yeah, my goal is, in fact, to make fandom a more welcoming place, and help it become a community that a broader range of people will choose to be a part of. Not by going door-to-door so I can drag a token black woman to my local con, but by trying to address the underlying problems making so many people feel unwelcome.

You know what isn’t going to encourage people to be a part of fandom?

Pretending we don’t have any problems, and that things like our “colorblindness” and “genderblindness” have resulted in a utopia where all groups feel welcome.

Using our own privileged experiences to invalidate the lived experiences of others. (“Well, as a 39-year-old white dude, I haven’t experienced any sexism or racism in fandom…)

Continuing to make the same mistakes again and again. (How many times do we have to talk about conventions failing to address accessibility or create harassment policies?)

Worrying more about burying/denying/minimizing evidence of racism or sexism or harassment than about the fact that these things keep happening in the first place.

Dismissing criticism as ignorance and maliciousness (which provides a convenient excuse to ignore said criticism).

Pointing to what progress we’ve made to shut down discussion of the work we still have to do.

I’m rather fond of this quote from Antoine de Saint-Exupéry:

“If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea.“

There are a lot of good people trying to make fandom a better and more welcoming place. Some of them are on that listserv I mentioned in the beginning, where I’m told there has been some good and productive conversation lately. I’ve worked with some great people at cons and on panels. I’ve linked to some of them online. These are folks I believe are working to bring a broader range of people into fandom. Not by dragging or ordering them to attend, but by trying to acknowledge and fix our flaws, and to reshape fandom into a thing more people yearn to be a part of.

215 Comments

People of color? Is that just the same thing as colored people? Great SJW term btw. Also why does fandom deserve to be preserved? All it serves is to create an echo chamber that shouts down any criticism of what has become pure dreck.

Fair question – I think it depends on where you look. I’ve been at cons that felt very stuck in the 50s, but I’ve also been involved with cons that are actively working to bring in more people, emphasizing what’s being done in the field today and looking ahead instead of behind.

As part of fandom, I think we have some amazing people, and the ability to do a lot of great things. But we also have our uglier pieces.

Rico, “people of color” is not semantically equal to “colored people” or a “SJW” term. “Colored people” was a euphemism created by white people during a period of overt racist repression. “People of color” is a term that actual people of color came up with for themselves. See,e.g., Dr. King’s references to “citizens of color.” Of course, that Dr. King was a known “SJW” so perhaps he’s not a good enough source…

You’re out here saying “I know you’re not okay with this behavior, so here’s resources on how to put a stop to it.”

Creeps are out here infiltrating events, driving away new blood, and doing everything they can to give the impression that the people with the power to stop them don’t have a problem with what they’re doing, because that’s how they keep victims from holding them accountable.

How does that make you the insulting one?

Is the insult supposed to be that you’re pointing out that fandom has a systemic problem? Because even if someone thinks that all of the feelings of discomfort that people have expressed, and all the stories of harassment and assault, are just the fault of a few bad apples–you’re not insulting the bushel by suggesting people throw the bad apples out.

First of all, that “Old Pharts” photo you posted a while back completely misrepresented what the conrunning community looks like today. It was a picture taken of all the surviving Worldcon chairs from 1939 to the most recently won bid; at least, those who were present at LoneStarCon 3 (or whichever Worldcon it was taken). Applying today’s standards to past attitudes is unfair, as was your subtext that SMOFs are bigots. FWIW, there have been several women who have chaired Worldcon–one as far back as the 50s–but only a few were there to be included in that photo.

The friends I keep are the ones I share common interests with. Once I get to know someone, I really don’t pay much attention to their looks, so I really don’t care what the color of their skin is. Nor do I pay much attention to their religions or sexual proclivities. They are who they are. If I don’t like them, my reasons have something to do with them on a personal level.

What SF/F fandom needs are people who have a common interest in the speculative fiction genre. Personally, I find it just as racist to single out PoC to come to our conventions just to be our tokens. We should be marketing conventions to fans period. I have suggested to a few friends to come to a convention and, despite enjoying the genre, they were snobs. They didn’t want to hang out with a bunch of nerds. Whether they are PoC, women or LGBT should be irrelevant, but some of them have been.

If you can cite any specific examples of a person of minority actually being discriminated against, do tell us. Aside from some hurt feelings, the above quotes damaged no one. I want a RECENT story where someone suffered tangible damages or setbacks from the spec-fi community just because of their minority traits. If that’s going on, I’ll work at seeking justice with you.

Jenny TroutDecember 5, 2013 @ 11:04 am

I wish there was some way you could hear my slow clap. If you’re white/cis/straight/male/able-bodied/etc., you’re in a place of responsibility for the behaviors of your fellow white/cis/straight/male/able-bodied/etc., because you’re literally the only voice an individual with the same privilege is going to listen to. I’m glad that you’re busting on the “circle the wagons” approach.

It’s alarming that the response to, “PoC feel unwelcome in fandom” is automatically, “Jim C. Hines should find us some token PoC who will put up with our racism,” rather than, “Oh, man. I need to back up my fellow nerds and make sure they’re all experiencing the same sense of ‘yes, I am not alone!’ that I’m enjoying right now.” What the heck, nerds. Get it together.

Jim wrote: “Using our own privileged experiences to invalidate the lived experiences of others. (“Well, as a 39-year-old white dude, I haven’t experienced any sexism or racism in fandom…)”

This is a big one. Certainly among white men (indeed, on a panel about gender in sf/f a few years ago, I was immediately contradicted by every man on the panel, with precisely that argument, when I talked about regularly encountering sexism as an sf/f pro; THEY had not experienced sexism in sf/f, so obviously sexism did not exist in sf/f), but it’s certainly not limited to that. There are women in sf/f who are disinclined to believe that sexual harassment is a problem at sf/f cons because -they- have not been sexually harassed, for example.

It is a very natural tendency to fall back on one’s own personal experience as if it were definitive and universal, and most people do it constantly in daily life. But it is a pointlessly obstructive reaction to the ongoing problems in sf/f.

“If you can cite any specific examples of a person of minority actually being discriminated against, do tell us. Aside from some hurt feelings, the above quotes damaged no one.”

Because we all know that the only damage done to someone is damage done in real time, real space with direct epithet-and-slur flinging. There must be documented proof that someone stood in front of a door and said, “You shall not pass!” (See what I did there? Har.)

Jesus. Really?

I’m against tokenism too. I don’t want to see PoC invited to cons just so someone can say, hey, we met our “Other” quotia. I want to see fans, regardless of anything, invited to attend cons and workshops and whatnot, just like you do, Adrienne. That said, I can guarantee you that “some hurt feelings” being repeatedly “hurt” and then dismissed as no big deal? Will make PoC feel unsafe and excluded -will- keep them away.

I sure as hell wouldn’t want to pay money to come spend a weekend with people who might insult me, intentionally or not, and then tell me to walk it off if I complain.

BrianDecember 5, 2013 @ 11:16 am

So hurt feelings don’t count, even though you seem to have had your own feelings hurt by Jim’s use of the Worldcan Chairs photo? Double standards on display here?

I can’t count the number of times I have read this “the color of my friends’ skin is irrelevant”. In my experience, the people who say this… have all white friends, so of course it’s irrelevant. If you DO have PoC friends, perhaps you could engage in debate with them and instead of ignoring the color of their skin, you could try and learn about how their skin color affects their lives through the actions of others.

Your eagerness to dismiss feelings of others and only take into account “real” discrimination ( which, with your white skin, you are of course uniquely qualified to define…) speaks volumes, I am afraid.

RE the sf/f conrunner’s comment: “They need to know they’d probably be much more welcome here than they might be elsewhere. (After all, many of us would love to befriend extra terrestrials or anthromorphs.)”

Someone seriously said that? Seriously?

Oh, good grief.

When I read comments like that, I think it is overly optimistic to hope things will improve in only a generation.

As I see it, there’s been so much effort put into improving fandom by criticizing it that there’s now a contingent of people who say conventions are so male, white, and old that they aren’t worth going to.

Actually, that contingent was always there. I (white lesbian in her twenties) find con advertising extremely off putting and have largely avoided them so far (save Wiscon), even though I’ve been into SFF since before I could read.

Critising a boys club for being exactly that isn’t illuminating something people didn’t already know. I’m not reading Jim’s (or John’s or Nora’s or Genevieve’s) posts and saying to myself, “OMG! Cons are racists/sexist/ableist/unsafe? I had no idea!” I did have an idea, that’s why I generally decide to spent my hard-earned money to buy books and dvds instead of attending cons. What’s making me want to attend is discussions of how to make the better.

Ellen EadesDecember 5, 2013 @ 11:40 am

Points 4-7 are extremely important, says this PoC. If I did provide examples of PoC or women being discriminated against (*cough* racefail’09 *cough* chainmailbikinis *cough* voxday *cough*) I would not like them to be subjected to an avalanche of defensive minimalizing and dismissiveness. Which is what has happened over and over again. I welcome honest discussion with people who are willing to hear another point of view, but if your immediate reaction is a reply that starts out “But don’t you think…” and then minimalizes my complaont, that tells me you aren’t really listening.

If you can cite any specific examples of a person of minority actually being discriminated against, do tell us. Aside from some hurt feelings, the above quotes damaged no one.

No.

I’m willing to have this conversation with you, but not if you intend to be arbiter of other people’s pain. You don’t get to decide that other people haven’t *really* been hurt. You don’t get to dismiss people’s pain as just “some hurt feelings.” You don’t get to tell people they haven’t *really* been damaged by mere words.

I’m (obviously) happy to babble on at length about these issues. But I’m not willing to play that particular game.

They did. But other conrunning folks called the person on it, and they at least apologized.

Veronica SchanoesDecember 5, 2013 @ 12:28 pm

Yeah, you know what? Black people notice racism and overwhelming whiteness without it being pointed out in blog posts. When they notice it and don’t see it being discussed and criticized? That’s the signal that the community doesn’t give a shit.

Veronica SchanoesDecember 5, 2013 @ 12:29 pm

It resonates with the dynamics I’ve seen in abusive families, where the most serious crime isn’t the abuse, but talking about the abuse outside of the family.

What about the friends you’ll never get to meet, because others in your community are rude to them and you’re not bothering to specifically make them feel welcome?

Rin AdamsDecember 5, 2013 @ 12:48 pm

Eegh. One hopes that the initial comment was meant in a “we’d love to meet these crazy other races, so surely we can get the hell over ourselves with/for a group of our own that is often othered in fandom and in general society and go forth with awesome for all” sort of way. Y’know, earnest, if in need of much better phrasing.

Not that my alternate was awesome either, just… hoping that’s what they were getting at, as opposed to categorizing some people in with fictional lifeforms.

There is a meta issue here too. Sadly, a lot of ‘mainstream’ SF still features white characters. There are obvious exceptions, but if I went to Barnes and Noble today and grabbed the top 20 recently published books, I’d be willing to say the vast majority of lead characters would be white. And 95 percent of the authors.

It’s very hard to interest people in a fandom for which the underlying material often doesn’t relate.

Cons should look at their GOH listings as well. Now, I don’t want to see a ‘POC GOH’ but there are many authors out there of various ethnicities (and actors) who legitimately deserve top billing (but not enough in my book)

But there’s more to it than that…

Every year I work at a media con where they bring in a lot of the current authors from various media tie-in authors (Trek, Stargate, etc). Out of 26 or so authors I cannot think of one who is not white. And its not like the con doesn’t want them there, they simply do not exist. And every time I do the evemt I wonder what image it sends having two long rows of white people at the Author event, despite the con’s best intentions (and they do make a notable effort to bring in diverse actors – which have a larger base to draw from)

Yep. There are all sorts of layers going on here. I wish it was as simple as just pointing to a handful of Bad Bigoted People and kicking them out.

I debated talking about authors and the need to create more realistic casts of characters, as opposed to the narrow and exclusive casts we see so often. But I had already babbled on for 1000+ words, and I thought that was probably a separate blog post.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 1:04 pm

I haven’t followed this particular outbreak of the argument, but I think these are the points folks are trying to make:

1. They’re not racist.
2. Calling them racist doesn’t make them racist.
3. Their denial of being racist doesn’t make them racist.
4. PoC not attending conventions in large numbers is not something they control.
5. Rather than throwing around insults and calling people racist because they were born white, maybe it would make more sense to use the same energy to market the pros of conventions to PoC.
6. Screaming and flailing about how conventions are racist is probably not helping the cause of actually attracting PoC.
7. Much of the screaming about this comes across grandstanding and pandering. Sort of like the eyerolls Scalzi received in what was seen by many as his heavy-handed PR march toward a second Hugo.
8. All of these white privilege comments are coming across as insulting, and ironically, racist. Sort of like the ageism complaints against folks for being “old, white men.” To some folks, that’s hitting on three levels: sexist, ageist, and racist.

Personally, I think Hines means well. But I understand why some folks think he’s guilty of the very things he speaks against. In my small opinion, I think it’s worthwhile to remember that someone who disagrees with you isn’t immediately a villain. Most folks want the same things, even if they happen to disagree about how to get there.

Rin AdamsDecember 5, 2013 @ 1:07 pm

I have to retain some level of optimism or I just want to go hide in bed and say $#!@ everybody.

Also, I forgot to say: This is an awesome post. Well said.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 1:08 pm

You wrote:

“I sure as hell wouldn’t want to pay money to come spend a weekend with people who might insult me, intentionally or not, and then tell me to walk it off if I complain.”

This is a good point, I think. Consider it reversed. How many people want to attend conventions if they’re being accused of being racist? Intentional or not, it’s an insult.

Rin AdamsDecember 5, 2013 @ 1:08 pm

To my understanding, that can also get into tricky appropriation territories for some folks?

1. I don’t know who “they” are, or whether they’re racist or not. I do know there are individuals (such as the anonymous commenter mentioned at the start of the post) saying ignorant and racist things. But I agree that it’s silly to generalize into any sort of “All of ‘them’ are racist!” argument.

2 & 3. Well, sure.

4. Not directly, no. But the people putting on conventions, planning programming, inviting guests, setting policies, etc. *do* have the ability to make their events more or less welcoming to PoC. They control their own choices on that front.

5. As far as I can tell, absolutely zero people have accused anyone of being racist because they were born white.

8. I’m not sure how acknowledging and talking about privilege is racist. Pretending it doesn’t exist, on the other hand…

And I certainly agree with you that people should be able to disagree without one or the other immediately becoming a Villain. (Though it would give me an excuse to start wearing a black cloak and growing a more twirlable moustache.)

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 1:13 pm

The point is clearly that they’re not judgmental people. That’s obviously the spirit and intent of the message. Twisting it into something else seems unduly divisive. Rather than trying to understand folks who might disagree with you, you seem to actively be trying to interrupt it in the worst manner possible. I don’t understand that.

I do get a response saying, “hey, I don’t think that comes across well. I understand what you mean, but you could probably word that better in the future.”

As opposed to, “Someone seriously said that? Seriously? Oh, good grief. When I read comments like that, I think it is overly optimistic to hope things will improve in only a generation.”

Oh, definitely. There’s a huge difference between doing the research and work to create a cast of diverse, well-developed characters vs. tossing in a few token PoCs or recycling the same tired old stereotypes.

“This is a good point, I think. Consider it reversed. How many people want to attend conventions if they’re being accused of being racist? Intentional or not, it’s an insult.”

I am of the opinion that name-calling, of any sort, means that the conversation/debate is over and people might as well be flinging poo at one another. So yeah, I agree, it goes both ways. The bottom line is, no one wants to be made to feel 1) uncomfortable and 2) dismissed when they mention how uncomfortable they are.

And, to *your* point, I think much of what gets said, like the PoC/extra terrestrial thing, is said not by racists, but the ignorant-but-well-intentioned. Ignorance can be amended.

But not, to *my* point again, if an attempt at amending is waved off by statements more or less resembling, “Those were just words, you sissy, they didn’t hurt!”

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 1:34 pm

You wrote:

“(Though it would give me an excuse to start wearing a black cloak and growing a more twirlable moustache.)”

Now those are cards I would buy.

As far as the points above about being racist for being born, I think that’s how the “white privilege” conversation comes across to a lot of people. At its tamest level, it seems to mean that white folks might not see the problems, but the problems are still there. And that makes sense to me, at least in some cases. But let’s be honest, it is a little presumptuous, attempting to tell someone what they are and are not aware of.

However, where the “white privilege” argument gets egregious, at least in my experience, is when it’s thrown around more aggressively. Where folks have been accused of furthering a sort of racist culture simply because they were born, they breathe, and they happen to be white.

In fairness, perhaps I’ve misinterpreted some of the positions I’ve heard and read.

Regarding point number seven, I’ve noticed a lot cynicism in the speculative fiction community. There’s a faction that seems to believe certain writers are adopting Causes (with a capital C) because of less than altruistic reasons. Because of the attention it brings, the spike in sells, and because certain mentalities lend themselves to certain awards. Clearly, I have zero way of knowing what your (or anyone else’s) motivations are. I do know it’s a criticism that’s been leveled. For what it’s worth, I’ve followed you long enough now that I don’t agree with it. All the same, I’m aware of it.

Shrug. Just my two cents, mostly offered in an attempt to help clarify where some of the disagreements seem to be coming from, at least from my limited point of view. In short, I don’t feel like:

“It’s alarming that the response to, “PoC feel unwelcome in fandom” is automatically, “Jim C. Hines should find us some token PoC who will put up with our racism,” rather than, “Oh, man. I need to back up my fellow nerds and make sure they’re all experiencing the same sense of ‘yes, I am not alone!’ that I’m enjoying right now.” What the heck, nerds. Get it together.”

Oh dear God, I’m reading the comments. I’m so sorry, Jim, that you have to deal with all these people who

a) have appointed you Speaker-To-Brown-People (and Recruiter-of-Brown-People! an upgrade!), since apparently there are no actual brown people out there to talk to about these things;
b) haven’t bothered to read any of the things these brown people have written, in thousands of blog posts and panel conversations and social media discussions and journal articles, over all the years since the internet and quite a few decades before;
c) clearly haven’t listened if they have read it, or more likely have simply decided that what those brown people have to say is invalid; and
d) sure as fuck aren’t listening to you now, if these are the excuses and rationalizations they come up with.

Concern trolling all over the place, really.

JinianDecember 5, 2013 @ 1:53 pm

Assuming good faith, the person who says there are no problems with SF fandom is presumably not aware of any problems with SF fandom. Telling them that problems exist is not presumptuous. They said themselves that there were things they weren’t aware of — they just said it in an unwarrantedly absolutist way that presumes (ooh) that they know everything.

Re: #7, I did see John Ringo’s rant about how John Scalzi campaigned to win a Hugo by writing liberal blog screeds, and I’m aware of a few accusations that talking about this stuff is all a big PR move on my part. But I haven’t seen such from anyone whose opinions I take very seriously. The whole idea that speaking out about sexism and racism and so on is the Secret Path to Authorial Success is, in my opinion, rather laughable.

(I wish it weren’t so. I’d love it if every time I posted a picture of me doing a ridiculous book cover pose, my book sales jumped 2%!)

Mari MitchellDecember 5, 2013 @ 2:02 pm

No, People of color is NOT the same as colored people. PoC covers all those that are not white.

Fandom should be preserved because it give you permission to get together, learn, teach,question laugh, and celebrate all things of fandom. You to met many folks would would not otherwise, and what is wrong with that.

It’s away of sharing and supporting art.

Nick H.December 5, 2013 @ 2:13 pm

If I unintentionally or unthinkingly say something that offends someone, I’d want them to call me on it. Not necessarily jump up and yell “YOU’RE RACIST/SEXIST/AGEIST/etc”, but some form of “What you said has hurt me” statement will do. Yeah, it might hurt my feelings initially, but. I’m not perfect. I’d never intentionally be racist/sexist/etc, but I can make mistakes. And when I do make mistakes, I’d much rather I could apologise and learn what I said wrong rather than be allowed to blithely carry on blundering on in the wrong direction.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 2:14 pm

Saying that you think a problem exists isn’t presumptuous. Of course not.

Saying that a problem exists–and that the person you’re talking to is next to incapable of seeing it–is presumptuous, in my opinion. It’s basically saying that it doesn’t matter what they think and that their opinion on the matter should be minimized because they’re white and living in a bubble.

I guarantee white people see racism and problems a lot. Everyday. So they know what it looks like when they’re looking at it, and when they fail to observe it, they roll their eyes when they hear someone telling them they can’t see in *this* case.

“What do you mean I can’t see? I see this stuff plenty. Just not here.”

“Oh, but you’re white. You wouldn’t know it if you saw it. It’s a more subtle form of discrimination.”

“Why are you dismissing my opinion? You’re effectively telling me it doesn’t matter what I think or what I notice, because you’re right, I’m wrong, you’re pretty, I’m ugly.”

“Personally, I find it just as racist to single out PoC to come to our conventions just to be our tokens. We should be marketing conventions to fans period.”

Funny thing about that, because it’s assuming that PoC (and other marginalized people) will just blithely walk in feeling ever so comfortable and safe without a care in the world despite what we’ve likely experienced as a long, long history of discrimination in fandom. Outreach to marginalized and discriminated against groups of people, addressing their concerns and bringing focus to the in order to be more inclusive isn’t racist or treating us as tokens, it’s acknowledging that people *with power and influence* see that there’s a problem and are *visibly* working to address them so fandoms are truly inclusive and welcoming. Because we’re not mind-readers and having heard so much hand-waving and surface concerns about diversity with no real action behind them, why should we assume that things are any different unless those with power are actually talking to us?

There was a Polygon article recently that had an excellent indepth analysis of systemic sexism in the gaming industry that addresses why outreach and talking to specific groups of people who have experienced discrimination is necessary:

“If you tried to walk into my house for a decade and I kept throwing you out, would you just decide one day that it was safe to try and come in again? Probably not; you’d really need someone to say “hey, it’s ok – come on in, welcome home”.”

However, to play devil’s advocate here, what if you honestly and truly felt that you had not acted in a racist manner. But all the same, someone stood up and said you were racist.

First, I imagine, you search inside of yourself. You take the criticism seriously. But what if, after all of your soul searching, you don’t believe they’re right. For crying out loud, you think, you just said something innocuous like “good morning.” That doesn’t make you racist, at least not in your mind.

Maybe you apologize anyway. Why not, right? You didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, and apparently you did. So you apologize, even though you don’t necessarily know what you did wrong. But you do know that you’re not in control of someone else’s feelings, so you take it seriously and offer the appropriate apology. Good move, right?

But wait. That was yesterday. Today you got called racist again. And you still don’t understand. In fact, you’re getting called racist a lot, and these insults, Nick, they’re starting to pile up heavy. Don’t you owe it to yourself at some point to stand up and say, “Wait just a minute, buddy. I’m not being racist here. What are you talking about?”

Everyone in this world isn’t programmed to be in the walking-on-eggshells get-along-gang. Some folks believe that they’re being walked over, and they don’t like it. They’re being told what they do and don’t understand. They’re being told what the proper level of empathy is, whether or not they should care about someone else’s hurt feelings over blah event. They’re told that chain mail bikinis are sexist, but male loin clothes aren’t. Sometimes they’re being told who’s guilty of what without being given any details.

So, while I get where you’re coming from, I think it’s important to remember neither side of the fence has an absolute monopoly on the truth. And anyone who claims otherwise might be suspect, in my small opinion.

Erin UDecember 5, 2013 @ 2:37 pm

On a related “fandom” note: I’ve heard a lot of people talk about the “graying for fandom.” I think it should be pointed out that young adult/new adult fandom is massive and going very strong.

The problem is that young adult readers and the authors who write young adult fiction haven’t always felt comfortable within “fandom” because their fiction has been looked down on as somehow not at the same quality or intellectual level or whatever as adult science fiction and fantasy. This may no longer be the case, but its effect can easily still be seen today. Over the years, the young adult/new adult fandom community has built its own very strong and successful network of conventions and book festivals that are booming. Some quick examples include GeekGirl Con and Yall Fest.

When a group feels like it’s not welcomed, valued, or included within the larger community, it’s only logical that they go off and create their own fandom community. Things are getting better in this regard, but it’s a lot of work to bring the YA/NA fandom into the adult fandom world.

If you’re encountering an ongoing, consistent pattern of different people accusing you of being racist, it seems like there are two possibilities.

1. You’re the victim of a massive and bizarre conspiracy designed to … I don’t actually know what the point of this would be.

2. You’re doing something racist, and people are calling you on it.

Occam’s Razor suggests an answer here.

Mari MitchellDecember 5, 2013 @ 2:48 pm

There are authors, actors, artist who are Poc and are working in something that appeals to fandom. I live in California, which means these are the cons I go to.

If you look at Loscon, the folks who run are middle aged white folks. Who are they inviting? The same. I too am middle aged white folks. PoC do not really make the guest list. If they did, we might very find others who have not come before start showing up.

We need new blood. We need new people and new ideas. Change means we are alive. Fandom has lead the way into the future but will only get there if we touch as many lives as we can. Reaching those that aren’t like me, but are is when humanity is at its best.
Life is better with diversity. And in truth all of us in someway are different. Where I live no reads for fun.

No, actually. That’s kind of a crap move. A good move would be to ask, “Why are you calling me racist?” and listen to the answer, instead of insincerely apologizing and continuing to do the same racist things.

That said, if you are doing things that are -frequently- being called racist, oh devil’s advocate, here are my suggestions:

1) Yes, stop and take stock and evaluate what you’ve been called on. If it’s the -same- thing, you should probably reconsider doing that.

2) If you genuinely don’t know why what you did or said is offensive, ask. There are some people who will not want to explain or feel they shouldn’t have to. People who are attempting to improve things will, though you might have to deal with an angry explanation.

3) If you feel that you have been misunderstood/misinterpreted, there is -nothing- wrong with explaining yourself. That way lies conversation and better understanding and tolerance, for all parties involved.

-No one- should feel like they’re being walked on or dismissed. Isn’t that the whole point of bringing this topic up in the first place?

Kev McVeighDecember 5, 2013 @ 3:18 pm

I guarantee white people see racism and problems a lot. Everyday. So they know what it looks like when they’re looking at it, and when they fail to observe it, they roll their eyes when they hear someone telling them they can’t see in *this* case”
Well this white male used to think I knew what racism is. Using the N word, refusing services, jobs, etc. Yeah, I saw that and spoke out. What I have learned recently is some (not all yet) of the subtle discriminations of privilege. So yes, white people may often see racism *in some forms* but most of us rarely see it in some other ways. The only way we will learn to see them is to listen.

Apparently you don’t, as you appear to have missed a key part of my reply:

I’d much rather I could apologise and learn what I said wrong.

N. K. Jemisin has it right when calling your scenario a crap move, because you’ve left out that crucial second step. Learn. Grow. Move on.

I would never apologise in the insincere way you suggest. Not least because, although I’m not a PoC, I am disabled, and I have been in situations where people will apologise for behaving in ways that don’t account for my disability and then carry on behaving in those ways. This makes me more than aware that, if I’m in a situation where I’m on the other end of the exchange, I need to take care not to make the same sort of mistake.

Listen. Learn. Grow. But don’t carry on making the mistake.

I might have hammered the point home a bit much, but I do want to make it clear (to all reading) that the scenario you put forward is not the same as what I was saying in the comment on mine you were replying to, and I do feel kind of uncomfortable being associated with it.

As Jim Hines says, if it’s a consistent pattern, that should be telling you something, which is the other area where your scenario falls down. If the evidence repeatedly tells you that you’re doing something wrong, insincerely apologising and not modifying your behaviour is even more so not the thing to do.

Similar to that, what S. L. Gray has to say is also wise, and I second all of it.

” A good move would be to ask, “Why are you calling me racist?” and listen to the answer, instead of insincerely apologizing and continuing to do the same racist things.”

+1

Erin UDecember 5, 2013 @ 3:49 pm

Sadly, many of the people who are thoughtful enough to ask that question are probably already listening.

JinianDecember 5, 2013 @ 3:54 pm

That’s an interesting expansion of simply being told you lack information. Kind of sounds like the hearer’s problem to me. Certainly white people are able to see some racism, and men are able to see some sexism. Some of it happens when bystanders aren’t around, though, and more is subtle. It’s possible to learn to see better by listening to other people and believing them.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 3:55 pm

The hypothetical I was illustrating showed that an insincere apology wasn’t the way to go. The point was to stand up for yourself and say, “Wait just a minute, buddy. I’m not being racist here. What are you talking about?”

But the real question in the hypothetical is: was a mistake actually being made? I submit that a mistake is not always being made. Sometimes it’s just a bandwagon calling you names and no amount of self-reflection is going to offer a chance to learn, grow, and all that jazz.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 3:59 pm

The suggestion that consistent accusations coming from different people likely mean one of those two things is, in my opinion, goofy.

If, for example, groups of people kept telling you that you couldn’t learn because you were a person of color, well, that doesn’t tell you anything about you or your ability to learn, does it? It does, however, tell you a heck of a lot about the people insulting you.

martianmooncrabDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:03 pm

many of us would love to befriend extra terrestrials or anthromorphs.)

but then, they would have to be the right terrestrials or anthromorphs…

SistercoyoteDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:03 pm

Aha. Thank you.

Learn something new every day. And look what I wasted today on…

😉

BrentaDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:04 pm

I’m totally on your boat here, but I live in the wilds of Pennsylvania, where a “realistic” cast is white, Christian (or -ish), and straight-or-closeted. If I narrowed the cast of my life down to the size of a novel cast, I’d have to deliberately draw on outliers to make it diverse. Obviously that is worth doing. It’s just that the term “realistic” conjures the ghost of “real women have curves”, when in fact real women come in all kinds of shapes. You know, my town isn’t less *real* for its 97% white population. Thank goodness I can write about towns that are more interesting.

“I do get a response saying, “hey, I don’t think that comes across well. I understand what you mean, but you could probably word that better in the future.”
As opposed to, “Someone seriously said that? Seriously? Oh, good grief. When I read comments like that, I think it is overly optimistic to hope things will improve in only a generation.””

I’ll take tone trolling for $400, Alex. Frustration and the voicing of such over a comment reflecting an attitude that has long been something you’ve had to deal with (not matter how unintentional, because intention isn’t magic) is a completely appropriate response for one to have. Getting to look at something like this as something that isn’t frustrating because it’s not a part of the background radiation you deal with everyday? That’s something afforded to one by privilege.

My current series is set in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula. While not exclusively white, the area I’m writing about is mostly white.

But even there, you’ve got to ask the questions. Who are these people, why am I choosing to make them ________? Isaac Vainio isn’t generic white dude; his family have been Yoopers for several generations, and most of his ancestors are Finnish.

“If, for example, groups of people kept telling you that you couldn’t learn because you were a person of color, well, that doesn’t tell you anything about you or your ability to learn, does it? It does, however, tell you a heck of a lot about the people insulting you.”

Historically, it wasn’t about groups of people telling *individuals* that they couldn’t learn anything because they were black, or whatever; it was groups of people telling *entire groups* that they were inferior.

The parallel doesn’t hold. Nobody’s telling *entire groups* that they’re being racist. Nowhere in this conversation has anyone said, “You people are all racist because you’re white, or because you’re SMOFs, or whatever.” However, people *are* pointing out specific individuals and their specific, problematic behaviors.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:19 pm

“Don’t you owe it to yourself at some point to stand up and say, ‘Wait just a minute, buddy. I’m not being racist here. What are you talking about?'”

The hypothetical illustrated that an insincere apology wasn’t the best way to go. So, crap move, sure, no one’s disagreeing. The point was that accusations you don’t understand *should* be questioned. But in fairness, just questioning probably doesn’t go far enough. In my opinion, it’s better to outright challenge the insult if, after due consideration, you find it groundless.

Nick’s reply to my post dealt with a scenario where the accused was guilty. In fact, I felt it took guilt for granted, whereas the original point of my earlier comment was structured around the idea of the accusation as an insult rather than a substantive criticism. In other words, someone calling you a racist doesn’t make you a racist.

In my experience the ‘bandwagon’ very rarely goes after something that isn’t at least worthy of discussion.

Honestly, it amazes me how the idea of being accused of saying something racist is considered to somehow be the equivalent of being found guilty in a court of law for pedophilia. The whole point of institutional and socialized racism/sexism/etc is that you can say and do things that are racist/sexist/etc. but aren’t actually reflective of who you want to be. Somebody mentioning that you did something racist is just an opportunity to re-evaluate whether you’re following in the great carved valleys of entrenched ideas or really being true to yourself. Obviously that requires some degree of self-reflection, which not everybody is willing to do.

But damn, I wish people would calm the fuck down about the idea that sometimes good people say or do racist things. It’s getting a goddamned speeding ticket, not being arrested by the Feds for unspeakable acts.* Check yourself, check your meter, pay the ticket or go to court, and get on with your life.

*Raise your hand if you’ve ever worried about being assaulted in some fashion when pulled over for speeding. Yeah? Me too.

(I don’t know who you’re responding to, but since I seem to be on a tear…)

Somewhere around here I made the statement that there are always those who overreact, but looking at your example? It’s too generic. Context is everything, whether we’re talking about politics or fandom.

This is exactly the problem we’re working on addressing with Tu Books (my imprint at Lee & Low Books–we focus on fantasy, SF, and mystery for children and young adults that star POC characters), and within children’s books, at least, we’ve had some success at addressing people’s understanding of the NEED for it, but the problem is also that there’s a systemic lack of seeking out diverse titles. They exist, but they’re not as well known (we’re an imprint of a small press) and don’t get the kind of coverage that the big properties do.

So there are *so* many factors at play as far as diversity in the books and authors. We’re working on it, as are other publishers, but fans need to be better at seeking it out, as well, and the more that happens, the more likely we’ll all be to meet in the middle.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:45 pm

Regarding defensiveness, that’s why I mentioned “…after due consideration…”. I absolutely agree that it’s silly to challenge something before you’ve thought it through. However, after you’ve thought something through and given it every chance, in my opinion, you should aggressively challenge it.

Connect that to all the old white men complaining on con panels that teens “never read SFF anymore.” I hear it ALL THE TIME, and even when I’m sitting right there on the panel with them telling them about YA, somehow it just doesn’t make sense to them. They just don’t get why teens *wouldn’t* want to hang out with them and talk about racist, sexist Golden Age SF.

Depends on whether you’re writing about the past, and how truthfully you’re writing about the present. Very few parts of America that are currently 97% white — especially in a Confederate border state — got that way naturally. Somewhere in that region’s history is a sundown town, some redlining, or some other artificial discriminatory process that made it so homogenous. There’s also going to be some current discriminatory pressure keeping it that way, spoken or unspoken. A story set in the past of your area would probably have some brown people in it. A story set in the present could still — realistically — be dealing with the legacy of its racist past.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:49 pm

S.L.,

Context is important. I agree. However, I’m not sure I see your point regarding the difference between politics and fandom. Both seem more than capable of indulging in fallacious ad hominem insults. In fact, I think someone could put forward a strong argument suggesting that fandom is somewhat of a political microcosm.

After due consideration is just thinking about whether you were racist or not, or starting a conversation and asking what it was about your behavior that people found racist? You don’t seem to be including that in your description of “due consideration,” and that’s a huge gap. *LISTENING* and *LEARNING* are the only way you’ll know how not to do something that’s racist again, especially if you’re getting the same complaint again and again.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:52 pm

I disagree, for what it’s worth.

In my opinion, the spirit of what was being said was blatantly clear. Just my opinion.

Veronica SchanoesDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:57 pm

Not just groups telling other groups anything–groups in power using that power to prevent other groups from learning, working, and living happily.

Veronica SchanoesDecember 5, 2013 @ 4:58 pm

Do you have an actual example in mind? Because a generic “disagreeing with Obama” is meaningless.

Veronica SchanoesDecember 5, 2013 @ 5:00 pm

Life is so hard for white people. What if we get falsely accused of racism?

This is clearly the most significant problem regarding issues of race facing fandom today.

I guess my question to you is, in your hypothetical fandom scenario, you were saying that this male had been called out for something he said and/or did. Are you now saying that this male is being labeled a racist for doing nothing at all? Saying nothing, doing nothing, just sitting in a corner with his goodie bag?

Because that would be wrong-headed of the people doing the labelling, too.

“The point is clearly that they’re not judgmental people. That’s obviously the spirit and intent of the message.”

If so that’s still not a good message. What does being judgemental or not have to do with making people of color welcome at a fan event? Why should white people have to be specially open-minded in order to socialize with people of color?

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 5:27 pm

Veronica,

I’ve literally seen folks accused of furthering a racist culture because they’re white. I’ve seen folks accused of being racist because they were fiscally conservative.

Specifically, within fandom, I’ve seen folks accused of racism for not agreeing with the expulsion of Theodore Beale from the SFWA.

In this polarized environment, it’s really rampant. It’s gotten to the point that it’s a joke with *a lot* of people. In response to the almost casual use of the term, folks throw it around now in a joking manner, calling each other “raciss” as a way of mocking the left.

MollyDecember 5, 2013 @ 5:31 pm

Honestly, if you can’t see what’s incredibly and obviously offensive about that comment, I have some guesses about why you feel you’ve been called out on racism a lot in the past. I’m a white woman, and I can count the number of times I’ve been called out on racism on one hand–and 100% of those, the other person was right and I was being thoughtless. However, I know MANY other people who feel they’ve been “targeted” by PoC for “innocent” things they said (or for ignorant things said with “good intentions”) and upon hearing the stories, it’s always been pretty clear to me what happened–and it wasn’t an overreaction by the PoC.

It’s nice and easy for you and I to say “what? That’s not racist! YOU’RE racist for thinking something so innocent is about race!” We’re not continually targeted by microaggressions. It doesn’t affect how people perceive me when, say, President Obama is pictured on a fake dollar bill surrounded by watermelons and gold chains. I have the luxury of being able to go, “oh, don’t be silly, that has nothing to do with race!” Which is exactly why I should shut the fuck up and listen when people of colour say “wow, holy shit that’s racist.” Because their experience wrt racism is vastly, vastly greater than mine and always will be.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 5:38 pm

My hypothetical scenario is suggesting that bandwagons exist, and that sometimes groups of people indulge in what could be called groupthink. And folks, while in that pack mentality, sometimes get aggressive, and start slinging around insults to people who fundamentally disagree with them about something. That something could be anything, I suppose, but it’s almost always politics.

On one side, you have people like Scalzi, Hines, Jemisin. On the other, guys like Correia.

On one side, a group of people think it’s okay to say “lady editor”. On the other, not so much. On one side, chain mail bikinis are offensive. On the other, the lingering question of why not male loin clothes, and the suspicion that a mountain is being made out of a molehill.

And yes, I’ve absolutely been at conventions where folks on panels have told audience members that they were passively racist just for being white. That they couldn’t help but be racist because of their white privilege and that it was something they’d have to fight everyday.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 5:41 pm

I only read the opening of your reply. I have not been called racist in the past.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 5:43 pm

Well. Why wouldn’t PoC feel welcome? If not because they feel judged. That’s the presumption, hence that’s why it’s being pointed out that they’re not judgmental. If there’s another alleged reason why PoC don’t feel welcome, feel free to elaborate.

Johnathan KnightDecember 5, 2013 @ 5:48 pm

Molly,

I just read your full post. I really don’t know where to start my response. I’ll try to keep it brief.

1. To reiterate, I haven’t been called racist in the past. I assure you that you misread the comments above.