Thank you for your responses. I truly respect both of your opinions, especially on MM clones. It makes a lot of sense that the molasses would cause the burning. I was hoping to bake at the same temps as my NY style, but I will take the advice of lowering my oven temperature. Thank you very much and I will try and post on my results over the next few weeks.

I stumbled upon the Brer Rabbit and Grandma's Original molasses at Walmart the other day and was reminded of this monstrosity of a thread. Did you guys ever consolidate a final clone recipe? What about the molasses used? I lost track of what page I last read on this thread and it's just so "overwhelming". Thanks!

I stumbled upon the Brer Rabbit and Grandma's Original molasses at Walmart the other day and was reminded of this monstrosity of a thread. Did you guys ever consolidate a final clone recipe? What about the molasses used? I lost track of what page I last read on this thread and it's just so "overwhelming". Thanks!

Dan,

I know I never found out what molasses MM used. There are many good formulations here on this thread set forth by Peter. If you want a direct link to one I liked let me know. I don't think there ever was a final clone recipe.

I know I never found out what molasses MM used. There are many good formulations here on this thread set forth by Peter. If you want a direct link to one I liked let me know. I don't think there ever was a final clone recipe.

Grandma's regular and GM Better for Bread. I also have easy access to Roddenberry's molasses.

You can link the one that best fits, but can you also link your best one, irregardless?

Thanks.

Dwight,

If you want to look at Peter's post at Reply 1470 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg174699.html#msg174699 with the links to when I used the MM#7 dough formulation you can get an idea of what my MM clone attempts looked like to see if you think one of them looks better than the others. I think personally I liked the MM#7 clone dough formulation the best, but I can't really recall which one was the specific best one.

I am not sure what protein GM Better for Bread has compared to the flours I tried in this thread. You might need to use the mixed mass calculation tool at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to be able to come up with a protein value in line with what flour MM uses. You might need to add some VWG, but I am not sure of that. If you don't understand how to use the mixed mass calculation tool I did post a link to where Scott123 explained to me on how to use that tool at Reply 1808 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg199986.html#msg199986

If you want to look at Peter's post at Reply 1470 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg174699.html#msg174699 with the links to when I used the MM#7 dough formulation you can get an idea of what my MM clone attempts looked like to see if you think one of them looks better than the others. I think personally I liked the MM#7 clone dough formulation the best, but I can't really recall which one was the specific best one.

I am not sure what protein GM Better for Bread has compared to the flours I tried in this thread. You might need to use the mixed mass calculation tool at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to be able to come up with a protein value in line with what flour MM uses. You might need to add some VWG, but I am not sure of that. If you don't understand how to use the mixed mass calculation tool I did post a link to where Scott123 explained to me on how to use that tool at Reply 1808 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg199986.html#msg199986

Do you understand how to use November's mixed mass calculation tool? I am not sure how accurate the wet gluten mass tests were but at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661 Peter posted the protein numbers for different flours including the Power flour that I used in some of my MM clones and the Better for Bread flour that you would like to use for a MM clone pizza.

Do you plan on adding any VWG to the Better for Bread flour and if you do what brand of VWG would you like to use?

Do you understand how to use November's mixed mass calculation tool? I am not sure how accurate the wet gluten mass tests were but at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661 Peter posted the protein numbers for different flours including the Power flour that I used in some of my MM clones and the Better for Bread flour that you would like to use for a MM clone pizza.

Do you plan on adding any VWG to the Better for Bread flour and if you do what brand of VWG would you like to use?

Norma

Oh, yes. I've been using November's site almost since the day I discovered it after joining here.

Since you were so active in this thread, and many others, I just wanted a record of which formula you liked best. Don't really know when I'll get around to making it. With your background in pizza making and all the hard work you put in here, I really respect your opinion on matters here.

Oh, yes. I've been using November's site almost since the day I discovered it after joining here.

Since you were so active in this thread, and many others, I just wanted a record of which formula you liked best. Don't really know when I'll get around to making it. With your background in pizza making and all the hard work you put in here, I really respect your opinion on matters here.

Again, thanks.

Dwight,

Glad you to hear you have been using November's tools since the day you discovered them.

Thanks for your kind words. I really don't think I had a favorite MM formulation though. I liked most of them.

When you get around to trying a MM clone pizza post some photos if you can.

Well I took another crack at this dough I just wanted to add my data point to this already massive thread. I've only just started making homemade pies, to date they have all left something to be desired. I just made my second attempt at the mellow mushroom dough over the weekend and I have to say, this is the first time I've taken a bite of homemade pizza and told my self "d**n, now that's a good pizza". Not only that, but everyone told me it tastes just like MM. So for any other newbies who might be reading this thread here is what I did.

I started with Pete's MM formula #7.

I used Grandmas original molasses instead of golden barrel because I can't find golden barrel.

I used King Arthur bread flour and Hodgson Mills Vital Wheat Gluten instead of Pendleton power flour. I can't find Pendletons either. I used the mixed mass calculator to come up with a flour mixture of 13.5% protein.

On Wednesday I made my dough, divided into 4 dough balls, and went straight to the freezer.On Saturday afternoon I moved the dough balls to the fridge to defrost and ferment.On Sunday evening I made 3 pizzas.On Monday evening I used my last dough ball to make a calzone.

I cooked my pies in a conventional gas oven, on the middle rack, on top of a preheated Big Green Egg pizza stone. The oven temp was 500 for the pizzas on Sunday, and 475 for Mondays calzone. 7 minutes 30 seconds was just the right time for the pizzas, the calzone cooked about a minute longer.

I used a New York style pizza sauce recipe from seriouseats.com, trader joe's low moisture whole milk mozzarella, and whatever other toppings everyone wanted. I brushed the crusts with a clarified butter and roasted garlic mixture, and sprinkled on some grated Parmesan cheese. The pizzas were great.

Some thoughts:The dough on Monday night was allowed to rise for an extra day and was certainly much more fermented and ready to go than Sundays dough. Sunday's dough had risen just a little bit but Monday's dough was exploding out of its container. Mondays dough was also much easier to work with and stretch out. I also liked the flavor and texture of Monday's dough better. So, next time I will be allowing my doughs to rise two days in the fridge and cooking my pizzas at 475 degrees. Keep in mind that everyone's oven is different and I could have simply measured out too little yeast, your mileage may very.

I fully expected the pies to take longer to cook, though at under 8 minutes they seemed done to me. What are y'alls opinion on cook time? Perhaps we were eating undercooked pizzas and we're too ignorant to know any better?

Well I took another crack at this dough I just wanted to add my data point to this already massive thread. I've only just started making homemade pies, to date they have all left something to be desired. I just made my second attempt at the mellow mushroom dough over the weekend and I have to say, this is the first time I've taken a bite of homemade pizza and told my self "d**n, now that's a good pizza". Not only that, but everyone told me it tastes just like MM. So for any other newbies who might be reading this thread here is what I did.

I started with Pete's MM formula #7.

I used Grandmas original molasses instead of golden barrel because I can't find golden barrel.

I used King Arthur bread flour and Hodgson Mills Vital Wheat Gluten instead of Pendleton power flour. I can't find Pendletons either. I used the mixed mass calculator to come up with a flour mixture of 13.5% protein.

On Wednesday I made my dough, divided into 4 dough balls, and went straight to the freezer.On Saturday afternoon I moved the dough balls to the fridge to defrost and ferment.On Sunday evening I made 3 pizzas.On Monday evening I used my last dough ball to make a calzone.

I cooked my pies in a conventional gas oven, on the middle rack, on top of a preheated Big Green Egg pizza stone. The oven temp was 500 for the pizzas on Sunday, and 475 for Mondays calzone. 7 minutes 30 seconds was just the right time for the pizzas, the calzone cooked about a minute longer.

I used a New York style pizza sauce recipe from seriouseats.com, trader joe's low moisture whole milk mozzarella, and whatever other toppings everyone wanted. I brushed the crusts with a clarified butter and roasted garlic mixture, and sprinkled on some grated Parmesan cheese. The pizzas were great.

Some thoughts:The dough on Monday night was allowed to rise for an extra day and was certainly much more fermented and ready to go than Sundays dough. Sunday's dough had risen just a little bit but Monday's dough was exploding out of its container. Mondays dough was also much easier to work with and stretch out. I also liked the flavor and texture of Monday's dough better. So, next time I will be allowing my doughs to rise two days in the fridge and cooking my pizzas at 475 degrees. Keep in mind that everyone's oven is different and I could have simply measured out too little yeast, your mileage may very.

I fully expected the pies to take longer to cook, though at under 8 minutes they seemed done to me. What are y'alls opinion on cook time? Perhaps we were eating undercooked pizzas and we're too ignorant to know any better?

Well I took another crack at this dough I just wanted to add my data point to this already massive thread. I've only just started making homemade pies, to date they have all left something to be desired. I just made my second attempt at the mellow mushroom dough over the weekend and I have to say, this is the first time I've taken a bite of homemade pizza and told my self "d**n, now that's a good pizza". Not only that, but everyone told me it tastes just like MM. So for any other newbies who might be reading this thread here is what I did.

I started with Pete's MM formula #7.

I used Grandmas original molasses instead of golden barrel because I can't find golden barrel.

I used King Arthur bread flour and Hodgson Mills Vital Wheat Gluten instead of Pendleton power flour. I can't find Pendletons either. I used the mixed mass calculator to come up with a flour mixture of 13.5% protein.

On Wednesday I made my dough, divided into 4 dough balls, and went straight to the freezer.On Saturday afternoon I moved the dough balls to the fridge to defrost and ferment.On Sunday evening I made 3 pizzas.On Monday evening I used my last dough ball to make a calzone.

I cooked my pies in a conventional gas oven, on the middle rack, on top of a preheated Big Green Egg pizza stone. The oven temp was 500 for the pizzas on Sunday, and 475 for Mondays calzone. 7 minutes 30 seconds was just the right time for the pizzas, the calzone cooked about a minute longer.

I used a New York style pizza sauce recipe from seriouseats.com, trader joe's low moisture whole milk mozzarella, and whatever other toppings everyone wanted. I brushed the crusts with a clarified butter and roasted garlic mixture, and sprinkled on some grated Parmesan cheese. The pizzas were great.

Some thoughts:The dough on Monday night was allowed to rise for an extra day and was certainly much more fermented and ready to go than Sundays dough. Sunday's dough had risen just a little bit but Monday's dough was exploding out of its container. Mondays dough was also much easier to work with and stretch out. I also liked the flavor and texture of Monday's dough better. So, next time I will be allowing my doughs to rise two days in the fridge and cooking my pizzas at 475 degrees. Keep in mind that everyone's oven is different and I could have simply measured out too little yeast, your mileage may very.

I fully expected the pies to take longer to cook, though at under 8 minutes they seemed done to me. What are y'alls opinion on cook time? Perhaps we were eating undercooked pizzas and we're too ignorant to know any better?

Anyway, they tasted great and I'm happy.

raging-pizza-head,

Thanks for your detailed post! Usually a longer cold fermented dough does taste better. It is good you could see how the different dough balls performed when cold fermenting longer after the defrost. I am glad you had good results with using Peter's #7 formulation with Grandmas molasses, and you and everyone else thought it tasted just like an MM pizza. The Grandma's molasses also performed about the same for me in Peter's #7 formulation compared to the Golden Barrel molasses product.

It been a long while since I made a MM clone attempt. I really can not recall what my bake times were. Since I made most of my MM clone attempts in my Baker's Pride deck oven I don't think we would have the same bake times since you are baking in a home oven.

I ate a Mellow Mushroom pizza today and I really focused on the crust in light of this thread. My conclusion is that there is rye flour in the dough. I took a bite of the crust and it hit me - it tasted just like a light pumpernickel rye bread. I found a light pumpernickel rye recipe (pictured below) and you already have the molasses covered. So the dough likely also has some rye flour. Not sure how much though, probably not as much as this recipe. Thoughts?

I think it's a combination of high gluten and rye. I will experiment over the next several weeks.

PrimeRib,

Good to hear you would experiment over the next several weeks.

I don't know if you read this whole thread. A gluten mass test was done on the dough ball Bob sent me. If there would have been rye in addition to high-gluten flour I think the results of the tests would have been different than what they were. At Reply 1695 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg185307#msg185307 Peter's explains what it is like to try and reverse engineer a pizza dough.

Maybe you want to purchase a MM dough ball and try the gluten mass test yourself to see if MM might have changed their dough.

As was previously discussed in this thread, at one time MM used wheat germ in their dough. But MM subsequently decided to stop using wheat germ in its dough and, as Norma reported, we were told that MM used only high-gluten flour. But, even after MM stopped using wheat germ, some franchisees continued to report in public documents that their MM dough contained that ingredient. We never did learn why MM stopped using wheat germ. But, as a fairly costly ingredient, especially when compared with flour, that might have been the reason. Usually, companies like the pizza chains are hesitant about changing their dough formulations, for fear that their customers will react negatively to the changes. Apparently, omitting the wheat germ from the MM dough did not have that effect.

Is it possible that MM has changed its dough formulation to include rye flour? Yes, it is if MM changed its dough formulation from what we understood it to be. So, the question is how to prove it. For example, since rye flour is an allergen to some people (more on this below), and since the MM website suggests that diners alert their servers to specific allergies, I checked the allergens list at the MM website at http://www.nutritionix.com/mellow-mushroom/menu/special-diets/premium. That list replaces the previous list that is no longer available at the MM website but I was able to find it at the Wayback Machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20120526125256/http://mellowmushroom.com/public/allergens102411.pdf. Looking at either list, rye is not an ingredient on the allergens list. That led me to ask myself if MM had any items on their menu using rye flour as an ingredient. I found only one item that mentioned rye, and that was a rye hoagie roll used for the MM Righteous Portobello Reuben hoagie (http://mellowmushroom.com/corpmenu).

With respect to the gluten mass test that Norma mentioned, as best I can tell, for example, from reading an article at http://www.ivannikolov.com/does-rye-bread-have-gluten/, rye flour contains a protein that includes gliadin, but that protein does not result in the formation of gluten when the rye flour is admixed with water, as is the case with wheat flour. So, if that is true, the gluten mass test would not include any added gluten from the rye flour. It is apparently the gliadin protein that some people are sensitive to. And, for that reason, people who are celiacs or are otherwise sensitive to gluten are advised to avoid rye flour.

I also did a check on the cost of rye flour relative to wheat flour, since in my experience with reverse engineering dough formulations of pizza chains there is a natural reluctance to do anything that materially raises the cost of their products, even for ingredients that are used in small quantities and whose omission might not be missed by consumers. While I do not have access to the pricing of millers of rye flours, especially in bulk quantities such as might be used by someone like MM, I see that Amazon sells a 50-lb bag of rye flour for $45 (http://www.amazon.com/Rye-Flour-Bulk-Pound-Bag/dp/B0007NG4YQ/?tag=pizzamaking-20). That is at least three times the cost of a 50-lb bag of a typical high-gluten flour. In my opinion, having rid itself of wheat germ, and the attendant costs, MM would have to have a good reason to replace the wheat germ with rye flour.

Since PrimeRib appears to be motivated to get to the bottom of this matter, I encourage him in his efforts to that end.