Ok this is getting really meta… I completely agree that society’s treatment of women is terrible. I do everything in my own life to alleviate that. That said, the fact is we DO still live in this rape-isn’t-that-bad-she’ll-like-it scenario.

THAT SAID when I park my car in a sketchy parking lot, I hide my valuables so that I don’t get robbed.

I mean seriously do you think people break into cars compulsivly? Do you go “oh I never thought about stealing but now that I see that abaonded Ipod securecd behind locked metal and glass ans car alarms now I’m tempted?”

Following the TAM threads around Skepchick, Stephanie’s blog and elsewhere, I’m still shocked and surprised by the number of men still talking down women, negating their experiences with sophmore argumentation and doing anything but acknowledge that there is a problem. Anyone who complains is tone-trolled out of the argument. A year on from Elevatorgate and things, if they have moved, have done so incrementally.

I do have a hope that progress is being made. But in the meantime there is much frustration. Stephanie in particular deserves some kind of award for the grief she has taken. Where she gets her reserves of courage, patience and energy from are beyond me.

Really? Please do us all a favor and get in your precious car, garage it, turn it on and stay there until your brain either wakes up or expires ridding the world of one more asshole.

Here’s a fun experiment: if you saw a naked woman lying on the street do you think a) what happened I should get help this is odd? B) wtf? Or c) well I never thought of it before but hey free pussy!

People oppertunistically stealing and raping is not the fucking fault of the victim…such people either search out or keep an eye open for such opertunities because they’re predators. Decent people don’t do that. Decent people don’t even check other cars for exposed valubles.

Exactly
Because, you know shithead, I had my purse picked, my handbag stolen and my car broken into.
But you know what, none of this was half as bad as the day some guy followed me and tried to get me when I went to my car. Oh, and just for the record, I wasn’t wearing a short skirt. But I wasn’t wearing a burqa, so fuck you and your victim blaming
You don’t do “everything” to alleviate that, you actively participate in rape-culture

THAT SAID when I park my car in a sketchy parking lot, I hide my valuables so that I don’t get robbed.

Blaming the victim.

Even if you leave $1,000 in plain sight on your dashboard, someone else still has to make the decision to break the law and rob you. If a woman walks into a bar at 2:00am naked, someone else still has to make the decision to break the law and rape her.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I’m failing to see the relevance

The relevance is that you are, effectively, telling women (or men, or children) that it is their fault if they are raped. They made the mistake.

When I was young, I was molested by my cub scout leader. Did I dress the wrong way? What mistake did I make?

There are others here who have been victimized by sexual predators. What mistakes did they make? Why do you think rape is the fault of the victim?

THAT SAID when I park my car in a sketchy parking lot, I hide my valuables so that I don’t get robbed.

By bringing this up, you are acting like you are teaching anyone what they need to do to protect themselves.

Implicitly you are treating the reader like a dumbass.

Women already take precautions — precautions they should not have to take — to avoid being raped. By redirecting the discussion to what women should do, instead of how nobody should rape anybody, you are distracting from the message that should be getting through here.

This feels like my life me yelling and stamping my little feet and men just laughing at me. But I just thought I’d say that I’m a new commenter but while I’ve been lurking one of the things which kept me here (besides PZs obviously awesome posts) is how whenever I saw a someone post something sexist so many of the men called them on it. It restored my faith in humanity. In my life when someone says something blatantly misogynistic normally no one says anything even other women who are too scared to get in their faces or even worse actually buy into their stupid view. So thanks everyone here.

I completely agree that the ideal solution is “don’t rape people”, but until that magical day, I just don’t see why it’s so terrible that someone say “WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN TO REDUCE RAPE but until then please be safe”. I feel like it’s a kneejerk reaction to assume that someone who says “don’t go out late at night” is ignoring the real problem. I’m NOT ignoring the real problem. I just think we should do EVERYTHING we can to reduce rape, which including being safe.

I don’t blame someone who got broken into their car any more than I blame someone who gets raped. And of course, I have far more antipathy for rapists than for vandals and thieves.

Then why did you implicitly blame the victim?

“Oh, don’t leave valuables on display, it’ll tempt someone.” You realize this is the same attitude used to keep women in burqa’s? Or used to tell women to dress modestly?

I have spent most of my life studying history. One of the few constants, in almost every culture, is the idea that women, specifically their vaginas (damn, now I can’t speak in the Michigan State Houe), are property to be protected by men for the entire life of the woman. To some men, a woman is a victim looking for a crime scene. Her dress does not matter. The location, her age, none of it matters. What matters is the decision of the rapist to commit that violent act.

I completely agree that the ideal solution is “don’t rape people”, but until that magical day, I just don’t see why it’s so terrible that someone say “WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN TO REDUCE RAPE but until then please be safe”.

Because you are acting like you are teaching anyone what they need to do to protect themselves.

Implicitly you are treating the reader like a dumbass.

Nobody here needs your advice.

I just think we should do EVERYTHING we can to reduce rape, which including being safe.

And it is condescending to act like you’re contributing something thoughtful there.

“Hm. Maybe the women here have not considered their own safety before. I’d better raise their awareness.”

I’m NOT ignoring the real problem. I just think we should do EVERYTHING we can to reduce rape, which including being safe.

NO SHIT SHERLOCK!

Do you think everyone is walking around with fucking credit cards secured to their nipples by cloths pins? Do you nto think that people have an active fucking interest in not being victimized?

How is the most charitable view of your opinion that you think everyone is a fucking idiot who can’t be trusted to wipe themselves?

Seriously this is the equivalent of someone heading off to use the rest room and you reminding them that they have to actually LIFT THE SEAT UP…apparently thinking that without that insight we’d all just crap and piss on the lid.

The most charitable (to you) interpretation is that you’re the asshole IT guy who asks all female callers to “make sure the computer is plugged in and turned on” when we’re actively describing the error message we see on the fucking screen.

Ok this is getting really meta… I completely agree that society’s treatment of women is terrible. I do everything in my own life to alleviate that. That said, the fact is we DO still live in this rape-isn’t-that-bad-she’ll-like-it scenario.

THAT SAID when I park my car in a sketchy parking lot, I hide my valuables so that I don’t get robbed.

The reason why people are angry is beacuse you are engaging in victim blaming here – you are implying that, in the same way as you take precautions to avoid the theft of valuables from your car, women should be ‘taking precautions’ (I assume you mean not going out after dark, dressing ‘modestly’, and all the other things that people claim helps mitigate the risk of rape that actually don’t work) to avoid being raped, and thus those women who are raped must have done something, or failed to do something, that contributed to that rape – you are putting at least some of the blame onto the victim, and thus reducing the burden of culpability that lies on the actual rapist – the only party who is responsible for the rape. This is an established trope of rape culture; a common variant on the idea that rape victims were ‘asking for it’.

Also, by comparing a woman being raped to the loss through theft of ‘valables’, you compare a woman’s body and well being to inanimate objects – that comes off as pretty casually dehumanising, not only because it compares the animate to the inanimate, but because it likens the minor inconvenience of having one’s car broken into and some personal affects stolen to the horrifying trauma of rape.

That is why you are receiving ‘feedback’ in such direct terms. Ordinarily, a three post rule is in effect here, but something this egregious – effectively a replication of one of the most toxic tropes of rape culture – short-circuits that convention.

I completely agree that the ideal solution is “don’t rape people”, but until that magical day, I just don’t see why it’s so terrible that someone say “WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN TO REDUCE RAPE but until then please be safe”.

“Please be safe.” What amazingly insightful advice. Well done. I’m sure that all of the silly little girls who frequent these parts are secretly glad of your manly wisdom.

You are right, which is why I’ve never told someone “hide your valuables when you park your car”, and I’ve NEVER told a woman to do something to avoid being raped. Because I AM smart enough to know that they already know that (I am married, I hear about the cat calling and that kind of stuff all the time). My point is just that some poor slob who DOES suggest it might be condescending, but it’s not the same as being accepting of the rape culture.

I feel like it’s a kneejerk reaction to assume that someone who says “don’t go out late at night” is ignoring the real problem. I’m NOT ignoring the real problem. I just think we should do EVERYTHING we can to reduce rape, which including being safe.

I hope you are still reading this.

Blaming the victim does not reduce rape. Telling women to do this, don’t do that, do the other thing, be safe, don’t go out at night, don’t go to bars, whatever, does not reduce rape. It does things, but it does not reduce rape. Specifically, it tells the victim that, if she was raped, it is her fault and any attempt to report the crime or get justice will fail because it is her fault she got raped. It reduces the reporting of rapes. It reduces conviction rates (when I was in high school, a 14-year-old girl was raped by a man in his 20s. the DA did not press charges after he saw a photo of the girl taken earlier that day. based on her clothing, she was just as culpable as the man, according to the DA. no way could he get a conviction because she was involved in risky behaviour — risky behaviour in this case being a bikini on a hot summer day.). It also tells some men that, if they do rape a women, she was asking for it.

I was ignoring the conversation where no one could do anything but call names, but I appreciate the link above with actual reasoning!

There is a lot of actual reasoning here, in addition to some name-calling. It is not a credit to your intelligence that you act like you’re incapable of noticing the former because of the presence of the latter.

My point is just that some poor slob who DOES suggest it might be condescending, but it’s not the same as being accepting of the rape culture.

This appears to be a retcon of your point, as you realized you are the condescending person in question.

And what you’re doing is contributing to rape culture — by distracting from the conversation which should be about eliminating rape culture — even if (as far as you’re concerned) you’re not accepting of rape culture.

SSA has a rule that speakers shouldn’t have sex with attendees. Considering that you know, the second S stands for STUDENT that isn’t anything you won’t find from a University. People seem to love to play the “rule lawyer game” and focus on “well what if an antendee is married or blah blah blah” rather than looking at how the damn rule is applied and what it’s meant for. “DONT USE THE POSITION OF SPEAKER AS A PLATFORM TO TROLL FOR BARELYLEGAL OR JAILBAIT MEAT”

Oh and if Dumbass999 and the human ramora firmly latched to his backside think people are being rude and condescending to them: yeah how does it fell?

Gregory was partially right, but he missed one reason that I, for one, am so very pissed off: this has Been Discussed Already. As you see, there is even a site that is fucking called Finally Feminism 101. There is a lot of research behind our reactions to you, but you are totally fucking unaware because, in your little sexist brain, you assumed that anything having to do with women and feminism didn’t require you to do your due diligence and find out what the background is before offering your tired, ignorant, ever-so-common “advice”, which has repeatedly (like, 1,000s of times) shown to be not only not helpful, but actually toxic. “Advice” like what you just dispensed shows that you are unaware of the research that has actually been done about the behavior or rapists, and it is part of the rape culture narrative that rapists exploit in order to get away with their crimes. Not only are you ignorant, you are actively feeding into a narrative that ensures that less than 10% of rapists ever see a jail cell for their crimes.

So go the fuck AWAY already and start educating your arrogant pissant self. Don’t do any more damage than you’ve already done.

You’re helping rapists get away with their crimes, motherfucker. You don’t think that warrants a few well-placed cusswords and choice insults? Fuck you.

You are right, which is why I’ve never told someone “hide your valuables when you park your car”, and I’ve NEVER told a woman to do something to avoid being raped.

You’re either a fucking moron or a fucking liar:

I completely agree that society’s treatment of women is terrible. I do everything in my own life to alleviate that. That said, the fact is we DO still live in this rape-isn’t-that-bad-she’ll-like-it scenario.

THAT SAID when I park my car in a sketchy parking lot, I hide my valuables so that I don’t get robbed.

I completely agree that the ideal solution is “don’t rape people”, but until that magical day, I just don’t see why it’s so terrible that someone say “WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN TO REDUCE RAPE but until then please be safe”. I feel like it’s a kneejerk reaction to assume that someone who says “don’t go out late at night” is ignoring the real problem. I’m NOT ignoring the real problem. I just think we should do EVERYTHING we can to reduce rape, which including being safe.

But the very idea that it is irresposnible for a woman to go out after dark or dress in any way she pleases still places the blame on the woman, and demands that she bear the responsibility for avoiding rape rather than conveying to rapists that it is never OK to rape, that she doesn’t ‘want it really’, that women who are very inebriated to the point of not being able to consent are not ‘fair game’, that the fact that she said ‘yes’ last week does not mean that she cannot say ‘no’ today…

It is also worth bearing in mind that the ‘don’t go out after dark’ trope ignores the fact that the stereotype of the shifty stranger in the trench coat waiting to drag a random passing woman into the bushes is the least common form of rape – the vast majority of rape victims are raped by people they already know, spousal rape being a particularly common form.

@ 32;

I was ignoring the conversation where no one could do anything but call names, but I appreciate the link above with actual reasoning! Will check it out thanks.

I’m really confused here, so women already change their behaviors to prevent rape, but this doesn’t actually prevent any rapes according to a post above, and when an ignorant man (whether it’s myself or someone else) suggests that women do what they already do (in addition to doing what he can to condemn the rape culture), rather than just being ignorant and condescending, he’s actually actively promoting the rape culture?

I want to put a few caveats before I say anything. Mainly this is because I am intensely aware of my own privilege as a male entering this conversation, and want to say upfront that if anything I say reeks of sexism, I deeply want to be corrected. I’ve read through this post carefully, and I am really trying to understand the issues involved. As a guy trying to understand these sorts of things, I sometimes find myself a bit confused. What I’m writing here is not intended as any kind of rebuttal to any one else or even an argument; I started thinking about something when I read this post (and the comments) and would just like to ask a few questions to better understand the discussion.

Could it be that the man who takes the sort of position we’re talking about here (the idiot responding in the cartoon) is simply woefully misinformed and overtly privileged and not necessarily a bully? A bully, as I understand the term, is someone who purposefully sets out to say malignant things and to hurt others, and not someone who says a load of bullshit out of their own stupidity, arrogance, ignorance, or privilege.

As many in the atheist community know, it can be difficult to awaken from the hold of religious dogmas and doctrines. That one has to somehow get outside of a framework that one has accepted for a really long time in order to do so. I strongly suspect that privilege can have much of the same hold on people. How many men who take the position we’re talking about here don’t even know what the word “privilege” means in this context? Or that their perspective, due to their limited experience, is actually so radically different from that of their female friends? I suspect that the incredulity felt by some men in relation to this subject matter is more a matter of ignorance than anything else.

Left to my own devices, I never would have been raped. The rapist was really the key component to the whole thing. I was sober; hardly scantily clad (another phrase appearing once in the article), I was wearing sweatpants and an oversized t-shirt; I was at home; my sexual history was, literally, nonexistent—I was a virgin; I struggled; I said no. There have been times since when I have been walking home, alone, after a few drinks, wearing something that might have shown a bit of leg or cleavage, and I wasn’t raped. The difference was not in what I was doing. The difference was the presence of a rapist.[Melissa McEwan (Shakespeare’s Sister): Dear Ladies: Please Stop Getting Yourselves Raped.]

Locking your valuables in the trunk isn’t the solution assholes think it is.

I’m really confused here, so women already change their behaviors to prevent rape, but this doesn’t actually prevent any rapes according to a post above, and when an ignorant man (whether it’s myself or someone else) suggests that women do what they already do (in addition to doing what he can to condemn the rape culture), rather than just being ignorant and condescending, he’s actually actively promoting the rape culture?

How ignorant can you be when that exact behavior was suggested in the damn cartoon?

Dear oneplus999. You have committed an enormous faux pas. Really, honest. Wittingly or not, you stated things in terms that align you with sexists and rape apologists. And now you are making the error of trying to deny it.

A gentle suggestion would be to shut up. Now. Stop talking. And instead read and listen and try to comprehend. You will get an education.

Could it be that the man who takes the sort of position we’re talking about here (the idiot responding in the cartoon) is simply woefully misinformed and overtly privileged and not necessarily a bully? A bully, as I understand the term, is someone who purposefully sets out to say malignant things and to hurt others, and not someone who says a load of bullshit out of their own stupidity, arrogance, ignorance, or privilege.

I want to put a few caveats before I say anything. Mainly this is because I am intensely aware of my own privilege as a male entering this conversation, and want to say upfront that if anything I say reeks of sexism,

Don’t worry *opens up gun batteries*

Could it be that the man who takes the sort of position we’re talking about here (the idiot responding in the cartoon) is simply woefully misinformed and overtly privileged and not necessarily a bully? A bully, as I understand the term, is someone who purposefully sets out to say malignant things and to hurt others, and not someone who says a load of bullshit out of their own stupidity, arrogance, ignorance, or privilege.

Don’t care. If they’re not a bully they’ll be properly enough upset at how they HURT PEOPLE WITH THEIR BULLSHIT to apologize and learn something. Acting offended that people said “hey your constant poking in my arm hurts please stop” shows that it’s about them not anyone else. Noone999 shows no evidence of caring. His whole statment was “I don’t like rape but women need to stop letting themselves be rapped” to which I say “hey children in sub-Sahara need to stop letting themselves starve to death! Have they ever just thought of you know, eating!?”

As many in the atheist community know, it can be difficult to awaken from the hold of religious dogmas and doctrines. That one has to somehow get outside of a framework that one has accepted for a really long time in order to do so. I strongly suspect that privilege can have much of the same hold on people. How many men who take the position we’re talking about here don’t even know what the word “privilege” means in this context?

Don’t worry, they’ll learn. It’s not like people don’t link to Feminism 101 or any of the other sites people are too lazy to get their asses to on their own.

Or that their perspective, due to their limited experience, is actually so radically different from that of their female friends? I suspect that the incredulity felt by some men in relation to this subject matter is more a matter of ignorance than anything else.

ignorance does not explain why these assholes feel the need to TELL WOMEN ABOUT A WOMAN’S EXPERIENCE. Like asshole above “DRRRR HAVE YOU TRIED NOT BEIGN RAPED!?”. Ignorance only goes to not knowing the issue exists until someone says “hey this issue exists” if you then go “no you’re stupid stupid stupid” then you’re willfully ignorant. Remaining ignorant when people are talking about the issue just shows you don’t give a crap

Also, I really like the Feminism 101 site posted earlier; I found that a few weeks ago and have been reading through it. If I could make a suggestion, could that site be linked to whenever someone like oneplus999 shows up? I know that the onus really should be on the guy involved to educate himself, but — for whatever reason — it seems awfully difficult to get some basic points across to some people.

I’m really confused here, so women already change their behaviors to prevent rape, but this doesn’t actually prevent any rapes according to a post above, and when an ignorant man (whether it’s myself or someone else) suggests that women do what they already do (in addition to doing what he can to condemn the rape culture), rather than just being ignorant and condescending, he’s actually actively promoting the rape culture?

Firstly, you said this in a way that suggested women don’t take precautions.

Secondly, you said this in a way that blames the victim, which you should never, EVER do for reasons that have been explained to you.

Thirdly, by focussing this thread on victim-blaming rather than actual workable solutions, such as anti-harassment policies and reforms of policing and the judicial process, you committed the error of derailing the conversation.

Which is why I think the most sensible course of action is to go silent running, pin your ears back and let the grown-ups here educate you.

Like I said above, I still completely blame the victim. I appreciate the actual feedback. I figured there was something wrong with my reasoning, and I think it does come down to the statistic that only 4% of rapes are committed by strangers.

oneplus999, yes, you are actively promoting rape culture, because by redirecting the discussion to what women should do, instead of how nobody should rape anybody, you are distracting from the message that should be getting through here.

Consider: what would be helpful to reduce rape culture? Focusing the message such that it is simple and clear to everyone: nobody should rape anybody.

Now, with regard to that message, what would promote rape culture? Derailing from that message, so that we have to deal with another condescending person like you and teach you how to google, instead of focusing on the effort of getting out the simple and clear message that nobody should rape anybody.

You are making the work somewhat harder, instead of somewhat easier, for people who shouldn’t have to spend time walking you through this. If you want to be helpful, you could instead go share this cartoon with some acquaintances of yours, tell them it’s got a useful message that you support and would like to see be more widely understood.

Telling women to do this, don’t do that, do the other thing, be safe, don’t go out at night, don’t go to bars, whatever, does not reduce rape.

That’s amazingly, appallingly stupid, and that’s why Pharynguloids are kept in this dungeon where they won’t affect Real Life.

Are you REALLY saying that women are powerless to do anything not to be a victim? Those things all DO REDUCE RAPE. They won’t stop some types and some incidents of rape, but they do reduce others.

Women are helpless victims, whose only power is to whine about how stupid men are, and convince PZ to echo their powerless whining.

No matter what stupidity PZ propagates, I’m STILL going to tell my son not to shower with Jerry Sandusky, and to tell my daughter not to sunbathe naked in the front yard. PZ can tell me I’m stupid, that I’m propagating the rape culture (as he says in this comic), but I’m still going to do it. This cartoon is just as evil as somebody saying that we don’t need to do anything to eliminate sexual harassment and assault at conventions, just tell wimmen to be more careful. I thought that PZ had a better mind, that he could see the huge problems with this cartoon and the attitude that women are helpless victims, but I was wrong about at least one of those.

Oh, and the “tone-trolling” you all love to helplessly whine about isn’t just to tell you you’re wrong, it’s to make you more relevant. You are successfully resisting this, though, so you’ll keep your massive relevance in the skeptical tweetsphere! And in sociological papers as counterexamples.

Except for the multiple times where I specify that I still completely blame the theif/rapist.

FFS, it doesn’t matter whether you blame the thief. I’m pretty sure that the majority of rape victims blame their rapist. The point is the attitude of the rest of society. You might feel terrible that your valuables were stolen, but society is telling you the theft was your fault.

I’m sure Ing was right; this won’t make any sort of impression on you.

I don’t particularly care if the bully who’s just knocked me to the ground did so because their parents beat them at home, or because they’ve honestly been taught that it’s fine to knock people to the ground, or just because they felt that it was a knockin’ to the ground kinda day and I should just lighten up – I’m still on the ground, here.

oneplus999: You are an ignorant, arrogant, ill-informed fool, and, by refusing to simply sit and listen to what people are trying to tell you, you are denying your self a chance to explore an alternative viewpoint that may allow you to understand why your earlier comments were so offensive.

BTW Bubba did you know there are entire beaches where people just sunbath nude!? Rape isn’t apparently a problem! Who knew that nudity does not cause rape.

Something is wrong with you where you think rape is the likely or standard response to sunbathing nude for your daughter (you apparently think about this way too much) rather than you know “don’t sunbath nude on the front lawn or you’ll just a public nudity citation”

If I could make a suggestion, could that site be linked to whenever someone like oneplus999 shows up?

If I could make a suggestion, why don’t YOU check every thread for the presence of misogynists and rape apologists (they reliably appear in EVERY post related to women’s issues) and post it your own damn self. Some of us have been doing that (and feminist activism IRL) for fucking years, and frankly it gets rather tiresome, especially when our putative allies STILL apparently expect us to do all the heavy lifting.

simply woefully misinformed and overtly privileged and not necessarily a bully?

The problem with this idea is that he (the one in the cartoon) is being spoonfed the information and, because it threatens his privilege, he dismisses it. It is possible for a male to be uninformed (I was there not too long ago) but, when someone explains it, one has to become willfully uninformed — the mental equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming, “Lalalalal I can’t here you.”

I’m really confused here, so women already change their behaviors to prevent rape, but this doesn’t actually prevent any rapes according to a post above, and when an ignorant man (whether it’s myself or someone else) suggests that women do what they already do (in addition to doing what he can to condemn the rape culture), rather than just being ignorant and condescending, he’s actually actively promoting the rape culture?

This is a perfect example of being willfully ignorant.

Hah wow people make comments that serve no purpose but to call me names, and I get called out for tone trolling!

And yet you also refuse to discuss with those who are trying to help you learn. Take your fingers out of your ears, shut up, and listen.

Great community here guys.

You think everyone here is male? Really?

Like I said above, I still completely blame the victim.

We know that. And we have been trying to explain how blaming the victim makes rape more likely and makes conviction less likely.

I’m sorry was this the thread where you guys fix all the woes of society, my bad.

No. This is a thread in which the discussion of women being marginalized through the failure to enforce anti-harrassment protocols, or the failure to admit that harrassment is happening, has shown a blind spot within a large part of the atheist community. Your suggestions that we blame the victim are a part of that problem. Until this is recognized, society will contine to be toxic.

Except for the multiple times where I specify that I still completely blame the theif/rapist.

Then why, in your first comment on this thread, did you engage in full bore victim blaming?

That’s amazingly, appallingly stupid, and that’s why Pharynguloids are kept in this dungeon where they won’t affect Real Life.

Have you read any of this thread? Any of it? You insist on blaming the victim of the crime when it comes to sexual crimes. Women and children are the most likely victims of sexual crimes. Why are you so interested in keeping them vulnerable? In preventing fairness in the police and legal system?

linford86, many of us link to it when we remember to. It’s not a bad point you’re making, but yaknow, it’s not always trivial to figure out just what needs to be said to any particular person. In any case, may I suggest the wiki ethic; if you see something that needs to be done, please do it! :) It could always be helpful if you personally provide an appropriate link. (I hope I’m not coming off as condescending here, because I do agree with you in principle, it’s just that these conversations aren’t always as easy as they might look.)

That was me a couple of months ago. I apologize to everyone I crossed paths with while defending that bit of unconscious victim-blaming. It isn’t the victim’s job to be better at self-defense, the responsibility lies with the perpetrator to fucking stop himself before he acts.

I’m really confused here, so women already change their behaviors to prevent rape, but this doesn’t actually prevent any rapes according to a post above, and when an ignorant man (whether it’s myself or someone else) suggests that women do what they already do (in addition to doing what he can to condemn the rape culture), rather than just being ignorant and condescending, he’s actually actively promoting the rape culture?

You really can’t see why advising people to do things that they do anyway, may come across as ignorant and condescending?

Hah wow people make comments that serve no purpose but to call me names, and I get called out for tone trolling! Great community here guys.

Yes, you are a concern troll. Like many idiots before you (and no-doubt like many idiots to come) you have priggishly condemned the rudeness, while stubbornly failing to acknowledge any of the substantive criticism that the rudeness contains.

That was me a couple of months ago. I apologize to everyone I crossed paths with while defending that bit of unconscious victim-blaming. It isn’t the victim’s job to be better at self-defense, the responsibility lies with the perpetrator to fucking stop himself before he acts.

That’s amazingly, appallingly stupid, and that’s why Pharynguloids are kept in this dungeon where they won’t affect Real Life.

yes because it would be horrible to point out how Bubba by his own admission is a fuck awful parent in the real world. Or you know, blaming rapists. What a horrible world that would be. Bubba do you really have a daughter? if so why are you so against people wanting to make a safe world for her that you’d confine us away.

>If they’re not a bully they’ll be properly enough upset at how they HURT PEOPLE WITH THEIR BULLSHIT to apologize and learn something.

To be honest, part of the reason that I asked this was due to a reflection on some comments I made immediately after Elevatorgate happened. I didn’t really understand the issues involved, but thought I did. I never thought of myself as sexist, or as the kind of person who mistreated others (I also bought into the “good guy” trope, but that’s a different story.) I was arrogant, ignorant, and I probably offended a lot of people with the bullshit things that I said in the comment sections of various blogs (mostly on Blag Hag.) I honestly feel bad for the things that I said in that context. :(

But I’ve continued to reflect on these issues and continued to try to learn about them. One of the things that I was exposed to for the first time in the context of the Elevatorgate situation was the concept of privilege. And I didn’t understand it at first; I came back and made a comment about female privilege and was promptly accused of MRA. I didn’t know what MRA was either back then, but I can say that when I did learn what MRA was, I was shocked at precisely how sexist some men can be. The first time I actually had a better understanding of privilege was in the context of talking about Christian privilege in the atheist community. Going back and re-applying that concept to gender issues made me utter a big “oh…”

At any rate, what I have come to learn is something that is immediately obvious to you — one should simply listen to the experiences of one’s female friends, colleagues, acquaintances, etc, without objecting to them on the basis of one’s experience as a male. In fact, I suspect that all of these issues are immediately obvious to you.

I don’t know why any of these things were difficult to learn. It should have been easy. But it wasn’t; and that’s caused me to think a lot about how one might best reach a well-intentioned, but utterly ignorant, guy. I don’t know the answer to that and I’m definitely not going to start tone-trolling (I don’t even know what tone would be appropriate, let alone being arrogant enough to think I should tell others what tone to take.)

I can also say that I’ve learned a tremendous lot from the feminism 101 site. It’s really informative. I just wish that I had found it sooner.

Are you REALLY saying that women are powerless to do anything not to be a victim? Those things all DO REDUCE RAPE. They won’t stop some types and some incidents of rape, but they do reduce others.

Why are you okay with women (your daughter even) being forced to lead restricted lives in which they cannot have a drink or wear certain clothing or go certain places or doing anything after certain times of day? Because men are going to rape them and it is their duty to avoid being raped, women should just stay at home behind locked doors where they can be safe, right?

Women are helpless victims, whose only power is to whine about how stupid men are, and convince PZ to echo their powerless whining.

To quote myself in the “Women shall not speak” thread: “The messages are coming through loud and clear”.

Bubba (May I call you Bubba? It just seems so delightfully appropriate.): What I don’t think you get is that we aren’t saying that women should not take precautions, we are saying that 1) They shouldn’t have to, and 2) If they are raped, even if they are not taking precautions, it is in no way their fault. The fault lies in the mind of the perpetrator who decides to commit the crime.

>If I could make a suggestion, why don’t YOU check every thread for the presence of misogynists and rape apologists (they reliably appear in EVERY post related to women’s issues) and post it your own damn self.

sg @#81: Thank you. I’ve always been puzzled by this argument (and I’ve also been pummeled over expressing my puzzlement) but now I see that it makes some sense as a rhetorical tactical decision. (I’m not sure that most of the combatants see it that way though.)

@linford86 the fact that it’s easy to ignore this sort of thing is why people are LOUD RRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH in response to the ignorance. If we’re too sweet people easily ignore us and brush it aside. They need a strong reaction to wake them up. They need to realize that what they say is offensive and hurtful and they need to get that message without any ambiguity.

I’m sorry if I’ve hurt anyone’s feelings, I err’d my original post on the side of “devil’s advocate” because I wanted to stir up the hornet’s nest a bit, to get as much data as possible. I’m doing my best to take in all that data objectively.

You have convinced me that a man who “blames the victim” is being fairly ignorant because most women are already going to be taking as many reasonable precautions as possible, so, as one reader aptly put it, it’s like telling someone to lift the toilet seat.

I still reject the idea that it is distracting and thereby promoting rape culture, and that our feeble minds somehow can’t manage to simultaneously take personal precautions WHILE we work towards a better, safer tomorrow.

This cartoon is just as evil as somebody saying that we don’t need to do anything to eliminate sexual harassment and assault at conventions, just tell wimmen to be more careful.

That you say this, Bubba, indicates a major malfunction on your part. It puts you on the side of the MRAs, the men who would box in women, confine them, talk down to them, and treat them in every way the cartoon describes. In other words, it puts you on the side of the bullies.

Characterising this cartoon as evil is really wrongheaded of you. I am very disappointed in you.

1. The 1 in 4 statistic is a well established lie.
2. A rape culture is one where rape is accepted, like Saudi Arabia where children can legally be married off.
3. A rape culture is NOT where you can potentially be put in jail for life for committing it.
4. Claiming this culture is a “rape culture” is a backhanded way of saying all men commit or approve of rape. That’s about as bigoted as saying the jews run the goverment.

oneplus999: It’s because every damn thread ends up replying to ‘devils’ advocate’, I’m-Just-Asking-Questions, ‘this is all academic for me’ idiots like you. It takes away energy from the actual discussion at hand. ALLLLLLLL the posts correcting your cluelessness could have been spent discussing solutions. That’s why it’s distracting. Le sigh.

I’m sorry if I’ve hurt anyone’s feelings, I err’d my original post on the side of “devil’s advocate” because I wanted to stir up the hornet’s nest a bit, to get as much data as possible.

So your argument has changed from, “I didn’t do it” to “I did it as an experiment”? Really?

I still reject the idea that it is distracting and thereby promoting rape culture

Did you read what I wrote about how blaming the victim actually makes rape more common? That the acceptability of rape (because she was asking for it), the objectification of women, the toxic misogyny endemic in US culture, is what is meant by rape culture?

and that our feeble minds somehow can’t manage to simultaneously take personal precautions WHILE we work towards a better, safer tomorrow.

What more should women do? Should they never expose any skin? Stay inside unless accompanied by their father/brother/husband/keeper? Should then never have an alcoholic drink? Should they never go running? Maybe they shouldn’t drive? How may more restrictions of the freedom of women are necessary before you will admit the problem is with the rapist not the victim?

this comic was a woman upset that the men are upset

No, this is a woman who is upset because her concerns are being dismissed. Read it again.

Why are you okay with women (your daughter even) being forced to lead restricted lives in which they cannot have a drink or wear certain clothing or go certain places or doing anything after certain times of day? Because men are going to rape them and it is their duty to avoid being raped, women should just stay at home behind locked doors where they can be safe, right?

He’s okay with it because its not putting any burden on HIM. Why should he care that women are 9x more likely to be raped in their homes by someone they know, making all this non-advice on how to avoid being raped even more clearly completely useless? It doesn’t affect him. He doesn’t give a fuck what happens to women, as long as nothing changes that might inconvenience him.

Thanks, linford86. I hope you know the frustration isn’t personally about you, and your participation will almost certainly be appreciated here. :)

+++++
oneplus999,

I still reject the idea that it is distracting and thereby promoting rape culture, and that our feeble minds somehow can’t manage to simultaneously take personal precautions WHILE we work towards a better, safer tomorrow.

Nothing to do with feeble minds; you are demonstrably distracting from the discussion that needs to be happening here. You’ve probably already wasted two person-hours from people whose efforts you could have been supporting by instead fucking off and sharing this cartoon with some acquaintances of yours, telling them it’s got a useful message that you support and would like to see be more widely understood.

Every time you comment in this thread you are making the work somewhat harder. You’re not helping yet. How many person-hours will you waste before you decide to start helping?

this is why you had your backside kicked so hard you saw the curvature of the Earth

I appreciate the link, but based on my initial reading:http://xkcd.com/386/
You will come across people you disagree with on the internet, and if you take the time to try to educate them even when it’s a waste of time, it’s your own fault, don’t you dare fucking blame me for wasting your time because you don’t know how to close your browser.

I’m sorry if I’ve hurt anyone’s feelings, I err’d my original post on the side of “devil’s advocate” because I wanted to stir up the hornet’s nest a bit, to get as much data as possible. I’m doing my best to take in all that data objectively.

Is this a variant on the “Sociological experiment” flounce?

marlorocci: I shall respond to your points one by one:
1. Please read this before furthering your stupidity.
2. Actually, check your definitions, rape culture is defined as a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone sexual violence. Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape.
3. Yes, it is, if your chances of that fate are relatively low given the patriarchal, victim blaming nature of rape culture.
4. Please, explain this further, because I have never seem any reasonable feminist suggest this.

2. A rape culture is one where rape is accepted, like Saudi Arabia where children can legally be married off.

3. A rape culture is NOT where you can potentially be put in jail for life for committing it.

No one is claiming that Western society approves of rape. The actual claim (and please try to understand this, you stupid stupid stupid little man) is that Western society is often dismissive of rape allegations which don’t fit into a very limited narrative involving predatory strangers and respectable victims.

4. Claiming this culture is a “rape culture” is a backhanded way of saying all men commit or approve of rape. That’s about as bigoted as saying the jews run the goverment.

No it isn’t. No one, besides a largely apocryphal fringe of extreme feminists, has ever claimed that all men are rapists. Clueless idiots are very fond of repeating this claim, however.

Hey everyone, marlorocci totally solved it all! We’re not living in a culture with a distressingly high number of unreported rapes! All rapes are reported because women aren’t shamed by society, disbelieved and abused for daring to report a rape! Rapists get convicted every time there’s evidence (the evidence being two male witnesses, of course! Who should be present in any case, because if there aren’t other, impartial, non-abusive men present, well, what was she doing with a man alone?)!

SO yay! Now we can all go have a beer! Just don’t have a beer if you’re a woman, y’know. You might get yourself drunk and vulnerable. And if it’s night where you are and you’re a woman, you’ll have to get someone to go with you to have this beer. Or really, just stay at home till it’s day again. And then, when it’s daylight and you’re drinking your non-alcoholic beverage, make sure to dress appropriately and talk to no men and certainly have no consensual sex before getting yourselves all raped!

You people sure think a lot of yourselves. I keep hearing that I’m distracting from some magical discussion that should be happening. Ok, I will do my best to keep out of the conversation from here on out. Please, solve our rape culture in the remainder of this thread.

PZ, please ban oneplus or at least tell him to fuck off. He’s made this entire thread about himself, has made more than one failed flounce, has admitted that he’s deliberately baiting people with his offensive stupidity, and is depleting the Earth’s natural resources with all his strawman construction. I think that more than merits a blog-spanking.

You people sure think a lot of yourselves. I keep hearing that I’m distracting from some magical discussion that should be happening. Ok, I will do my best to keep out of the conversation from here on out. Please, solve our rape culture in the remainder of this thread.f

Yeah, I do. People read what I write. People listen to me when I give a talk or a tour. I am talented. Around here, I’m a student who is still learning. Everyone here has something about which they are an expert so, yeah, I think we do.

I keep hearing that I’m distracting from some magical discussion that should be happening.

Well, let’s see. You have blamed victims. You have denied that you blamed victims. You have admitted that you blamed victims, but claim to have done it as an experiment. You do have your uses. Specifically, once again, the idea that it is okay to blame the victim of a rape has been pounded into the ground. Unfortunately, it will return. It always does.

Ok, I will do my best to keep out of the conversation from here on out.

Why do you keep up with the Schroedinger’s Flounce? Either do it, or don’t do it.

Please, solve our rape culture in the remainder of this thread.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there have been three different commenters, me included, who have admitted that reading threads like this, threads in which misogyny is not allowed to fester, have helped us to recognize our own socially imprinted sexism and privilege.

See, if you actually gave a crap about solving the problem, instead of being all offended, you could be reading instead of posting over and over about how a bunch of feminists are being mean TO YOU and being dismissive of the problem to boot.

You people sure think a lot of yourselves. I keep hearing that I’m distracting from some magical discussion that should be happening. Ok, I will do my best to keep out of the conversation from here on out. Please, solve our rape culture in the remainder of this thread.

How do you even think this shit is worth posting? WHY do you think you’re OWED politeness when you make a bonehead, hurtful comment and then make it all about your outrage?

You people sure think a lot of yourselves. I keep hearing that I’m distracting from some magical discussion that should be happening. Ok, I will do my best to keep out of the conversation from here on out. Please, solve our rape culture in the remainder of this thread.f

DING: #2 Pity Riposte

I’m sorry if I’ve hurt anyone’s feelings, I err’d my original post on the side of “devil’s advocate” because I wanted to stir up the hornet’s nest a bit, to get as much data as possible. I’m doing my best to take in all that data objectively.

Thanks for being gracious about it… I couldn’t remember where the conversation took place, elsewise my apologies would have been directed more personally. I’m sure I was an asshole about the whole thing, on top of being wrong while I was on some level technically correct.

Something that the men in these conversations need to understand, and that I’m just starting to figure out, is that you can be technically correct on some level while being deeply and terribly wrong on every level that actually means anything. Yeah, technically some women will be served by guns, self-defense classes, going out in packs, whatever. Yeah, technically there’s a slim but real chance of false rape or harassment charges being made, although the odds seem to range between 1-in-20 and 1-in-50 or thereabouts. There’s even a discussion to be had about what constitutes harassment and what doesn’t. There’s a time and a place to discuss those issues.

Outside of those rare times and places, bringing up that sort of thing is derailing from the actual subject at hand, which is that women are being harassed and assaulted, and the people who should be taking it seriously aren’t taking it seriously. It is wrong to sandbag women by victim blaming, or by demanding unfair and unreasonable standards of evidence, or gaslighting, or any of the other ways that guys want to shift the subject away from its root issues. Maybe you mean well(I know I did), and maybe you’re a troll, but either way you’re hijacking the conversation and taking the burden off of the perpetrators and onto the victims.

I’m not going to say “shut up and listen”… what I am going to say is that if you’re a member of one group joining in a discussion of issues mainly affecting a different group, it is easy to make statements and try to “win the point” from an aloof academic perspective. What you need to remember is that these issues are fundamentally important to the people who deal with them directly, and it isn’t an intellectual game to them. So if you get slammed really hard and you don’t know why… well, there it is.

You’re a real fucking piece of work, especially when you opened with this:

I completely agree that society’s treatment of women is terrible. I do everything in my own life to alleviate that.

Do you consider the paragraph I quoted above as being consistent with the second?

You barged in here with some helpful advice about locking up your valuables, as if no-one’s ever thought of that before, and now that you’re all fucking pissy because nobody gave you a medal for your genius, your answer is to continually denigrate the people that are working to alleviate rape culture, part of which is not engaging in continual victim-blaming?

You people sure think a lot of yourselves

When I cease to be a smarter and generally better person than you, I’ll have some fucking reason to be humble.

“unfair that I get catcalled on the street even when I am wearing jeans and a hoodie”

This suggests that it is ok to be catcalled if I am wearing something else (short skirt, heels?), or if not ok, then at least something I should expect. And this sounds like the “she was asking for it” attitude of people who blame the the woman for being raped because of what she was wearing. I don’t want to believe that the cartoon’s protagonist thinks this way.

This suggests that it is ok to be catcalled if I am wearing something else (short skirt, heels?), or if not ok, then at least something I should expect. And this sounds like the “she was asking for it” attitude of people who blame the the woman for being raped because of what she was wearing. I don’t want to believe that the cartoon’s protagonist thinks this way.

No it’s dismissing the idea that you can avoid the sexism if the “Follow the Plan”

Why do you keep up with the Schroedinger’s Flounce? Either do it, or don’t do it.

It’s an excellent way for him to service a superiority complex. (Or is it an inferiority complex; they’re both fucking annoying.) He gets to constantly pat himself on the back, by thinking “I’m better than these people; I’m better than these people; I’m better than these people; I’m better than these people; I’m better than these people…“

Is it possible to dispel the butthurt that arises in some people when being told they’re wrong? We’re all susceptible to it but some seem to hold to Their Righteousness in a way that would make they themselves jeer and point if it was coming from a theist. It’s the butthurt that leads these people to flounce.

I know it’s not our job to relieve this butthurt, but theoretically speaking, has anyone managed to bring someone in their lives around from this speshul kind of idiocy? Cognitive dissonance, Dunning-Kruger – you’d expect people popping up here to be well-versed in the implications of these problems, and it stuns me every time I encounter it (which, to be fair, is almost daily, would be more if I got out much).

Just had to wonder out loud to relieve the pressure caused by the frustration.

Way to go and dig yourself in a deep hole, sir. Do a bit of reading before coming back, shall you? It’s urgent.

Myself, my younger, jerkier self got enlightened while discussing women’s possibilities in today’s society with a lesbian colleague, some 10 years ago. She was quick to point out my, shall we say, provincialism and limited, self-centered world-view.
I’m rather ashamed to have offended her. I can’t believe how blind I was of some aspects of our culture. Or maybe not so blind, just squinting my eyes to make it go away.

BTW:

You will come across people you disagree with on the internet, and if you take the time to try to educate them even when it’s a waste of time, it’s your own fault

In other words, if you don’t like my opinion, just shup up, and don’t even try to convince the onlookers.
Last time I checked, blogs are for online discussion. What part of “discussion” don’t you understand?

You will come across people you disagree with on the internet, and if you take the time to try to educate them even when it’s a waste of time, it’s your own fault, don’t you dare fucking blame me for wasting your time because you don’t know how to close your browser.

So basically you didn’t read anything at the link I sent, did you?

You have wasted time by invading this space and stirring up a storm. You made the thread all about you. And now you are blaming others for what you have done and are flouncing out all hurt.

I have a couple of suggested courses of action for you:

(1) Ditch the self-righteousness, shut up, pin back your ears and listen. Read the links that have been sent you. It’s clear you need an education.

(2) If you cannot be bothered to do any of the above, leave. And don’t let the door hit you on the way out, cupcake.

I know the ‘giving up’ feeling pretty well. I think I’m pointlessly yearning for some way to stem the flow, but after the past few online years and meatspace twenty-plus years I’ve realised I’m just scrabbling on the edge of the avalanche, and it’s bigger than me and it ain’t stopping.

Something that the men in these conversations need to understand, and that I’m just starting to figure out, is that you can be technically correct on some level while being deeply and terribly wrong on every level that actually means anything

I’ve had a pet theory for awhile that being “technically” right, despite being actually wrong, is all certain types of dudes care about. Since the issue doesn’t affect them, and, as BJ Kremer said on Zvan’ “Great Penis Debate” thread, that is debate for men is like pickingy our favorite sports team and fighting til the end, it’s all academic to them.

And that is fucking terrifying from this side. That something so important is so trivial to them is terrifying.

I know it’s not our job to relieve this butthurt, but theoretically speaking, has anyone managed to bring someone in their lives around from this speshul kind of idiocy?

Improbably Joe has admitted to changing his mind even after feeling all defensive in this comment above.

Personally, I have, in the past, engaged in all of the mansplaining activities that the people we’re jumping on have done.

Once, I obliviously made an entire group of GLBT people cry with my idiotic, “I just wish for a world where orientation doesn’t matter” naive straight-splaining.

I’ve gotten much better over the years, but my education since joining Pharyngula has been greater than in all the years previous.

What I’ve never done, at least not to any significant degree, is engage in the kind of passive-aggressive whining that oneplus999 has done, largely because I’ve never needed a handjob and a cookie in order to be an ally on the issue of basic human rights.

I completely agree that the ideal solution is “don’t rape people”, but until that magical day, I just don’t see why it’s so terrible that someone say “WE ARE DOING WHAT WE CAN TO REDUCE RAPE but until then please be safe”.

Number one, that’s fucking condescending(I see many have already adequately pointed this out) and betrays that your head is so far up your fucking ass that Urban Dictionary has a section on you.

Number two, WE ARE NOT DOING WHAT WE CAN TO REDUCE RAPE, SO SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH YOUR PLATITUDES

Every single fucking anti-abortion law, every single instance of women being payed less than men, every single epithet or comment, no matter how innocently intended, and much more of this insidious shite(poverty, lack of daycare, etc), is denigrating women and, by implication, saying that women are not given the same respect and equality white males are – at the very best – and thus their concerns are secondary, fuck.

I’ve gotten much better over the years, but my education since joining Pharyngula has been greater than in all the years previous.

I like the notion here that the commenters are not speaking to each other, but to the(we) lurkers. It gives me a little hope that even people like oneplus999 can be useful if only as a teaching tool.
I’d put no pun intended, but now I’ve thought of it, it would be a lie.

From my experience the #1 way people lose an argument before even entering it is by accepting an enemies terms uncritically. American Liberals are notoriously guilty of this as they race head long into defending welfare queens and all that without realizing that they should be challenging the underlying claims.

We’re all enrolled in the game but to win we have to realize the rules given are not the actual rules.

THAT SAID when I park my car in a sketchy parking lot, I hide my valuables so that I don’t get robbed.

My body isn’t a “valuable,” you fucking victim-blaming dehumanizing douchenozzle. It isn’t a commodity. It isn’t property. It is ME. I live in it.

Not only should I not have to lock MYSELF away, but rape happens even in so-called “safe” places, like one’s goddamn HOME.

And have you ever considered that, for many women, “sketchy” places ARE home? Because some women are poor? And that other women work in “sketchy” areas, because they have to, and they work at night, because they have to?

You want to “reduce rape”? TEACH MEN NOT TO GODDAMN RAPE WOMEN OR FEEL ENTITLED TO OUR BODIES. Because women trying to protect ourselves or even each other does not fucking work on a societal level, you sniveling, arrogant tone troll.

My point is just that some poor slob who DOES suggest it might be condescending, but it’s not the same as being accepting of the rape culture.

No, it’s just contributing to it, shitstain.

Like I said above, I still completely blame the victim.

A telling slip.

I’m sorry if I’ve hurt anyone’s feelings…

….and the predictable fauxpology.

You people sure think a lot of yourselves.

“Awww, you think you’re sooo smart!!” The eternal bawl of the idiot unwilling to accept the fact of their own idiocy.

Please, solve our rape culture in the remainder of this thread.

“Please, fix the world’s problems and shovel the shit I just tossed onto the pile!”

I’ve already fucked myself off, please proceed.

“Schroedinger’s Flounce.” A great term for this.

Linford86, I think the saying “Intent is not magic” answers your question. It doesn’t matter whether the male interlocutor in the cartoon intends to be a bully or not. The effect on women is the same.

Also, the “community” (such as it is) has been discussing these issues for the last year and more. Links to Finally Feminism 101 and many other blogs have been pasted and repasted freely. Terms like “privilege” have been used throughout in their sociological meanings. We are long past the point at which benefit of the doubt is merited.

If you think someone should be linked to FF101 or any other site, nobody is stopping you from doing so.

Bubba Rich, I feel sorry for both of your children. And, to answer Ing’s question, if I had a daughter, I wouldn’t let her anywhere near you, and I’d use you as a negative role model for any hypothetical sons.

Rocci:

The 1 in 4 statistic is a well established lie.

Citation from trustworthy source needed.

A rape culture is one where rape is accepted, like Saudi Arabia where children can legally be married off.

That is not the definition of the term.

A rape culture is NOT where you can potentially be put in jail for life for committing it.

“Potentially” don’t mean shit when most rapists get away with it.

Claiming this culture is a “rape culture” is a backhanded way of saying all men commit or approve of rape. That’s about as bigoted as saying the jews run the goverment.

Women can be and are complicit in patriarchy. Men can and do fight against it.

A rape culture is one where rape is accepted, like Saudi Arabia where children can legally be married off.

RAPE IS ACCEPTED HERE. The fact that certain people are not just expected to be raped but society applauds the fact that they are.

Rape is only illegal if done to the wrong targets outside of designated zones. Our society has accepted rape as a defacto and endorsed punishment for prisoners. We not only accept that prison rape occurs but are smugly approving of it.

Outside of our designated rape zones approval is replaced by denial, but it is the same effect.

I’ve had a pet theory for awhile that being “technically” right, despite being actually wrong, is all certain types of dudes care about. Since the issue doesn’t affect them, and, as BJ Kremer said on Zvan’ “Great Penis Debate” thread, that is debate for men is like pickingy our favorite sports team and fighting til the end, it’s all academic to them.

And that is fucking terrifying from this side. That something so important is so trivial to them is terrifying.

The thing that kills me is that they are treating the problem as trivial and implementing the solution is a huge and unfair burden, when in reality the opposite is true. The solution is almost trivially simple, and the problem is a huge and unfair burden on the victims. So maybe for them actually implementing a policy that puts the burden of change on the potential perpetrators rather than their victims IS some sort of existential crisis for them, or at least they perceive it as such?

Heliantes, Brownian and Improbably Joe have all mentioned changing their perspectives on women’s (and LBGT) issues.

I’m sure other men — and women! — have too. I’m really curious about people’s experiences in this regard. It’s also apropos to the cartoon, since it certainly shows that talking about it matters and is productive.

Because you’re the asshole in the cartoon, and thus the topic of the thread, fuckface.

Actually, this sums up things perfectly. I’ll be darned if Brownian isn’t right.

Oneplus999, YOU are the clueless offscreen voice in the cartoon, making things worse and not better. For things to improve it starts with people like yourself modifying your behaviour. For example, you could start by not victim-blaming or saying anything which even hints that a victim might be culpable for her rape.

That WOULD begin to set the world to right. If enough folks did that, the world would be a better place. And if you think this too little a thing to do, then let me remind you of the proverb about acorns and oak trees…

I mean, if you really cannot do this one small thing, then what hope have we to do anything to stop rape?

Compare how we treat rape with our zero tolerance on drugs or petty theft. Hell compare to how we treat fucking traffic tickets. Our society condemns rape as one of the most awful things imaginable, and then constantly seeks to redefine the problem away.

I’m sure other men — and women! — have too. I’m really curious about people’s experiences in this regard. It’s also apropos to the cartoon, since it certainly shows that talking about it matters and is productive.

The cartoon is missing its final panel, in which the offscreen participant says “See? Irrational behavior. You just can’t talk to wimmin without them going all bitchy.” Followed by a chorus of offscreen guffaws.

May I ask what shifted your perspective on this topic? What was the process of movement for you?

I’m going to be super-brief here so as not to hijack. Basically it was empathy, recognizing that what I feel and what other people feel is the same thing even in a different context.

Oddly enough, it was a conversation about guns that started it? I carry a gun, because I live in a crap, violent neighborhood in what has historically been one of the most dangerous cities in America, and people always respond by saying some version of “change neighborhoods” whether it is “who made you move there?” or “hope you can move soon.” Either that or calling me paranoid or compensating for a small penis or saying that I’m a violent person looking for conflict. The parallels to this conversation should be fairly obvious, in that it was all about ME and MY BEHAVIOR rather than no one should have to live in fear in the first place.

Once I saw the parallels, and understood that the anger I felt about being blamed for my position is the same sort of anger that women feel when they are told to defend themselves better, I realized that I had been a gigantic asshole, more of one than the assholes who pissed me off because I CAN move and the problem goes away for me. That’s not an option that women have to avoid harassment and assault.

What’s baffling is I can’t find the scene of My Favorite Martian mentioned at all in any synopsis? Did I imagine it?

Trigger SCENE DESCRIBED

Evil reporter woman winds up tied up in a room so Christopher Loyde can copy her form, wormy scientist finds her and tells his troops he needs to examine her for contamination as she struggles gagged in the chair and closes the door behind him.

I initially came to this thread because its topic looked linked to a project I decided to support recently, thanks to both Jason Thibeault and PZ, who called this project to our attention some days ago.

It’s Anita Sarkeesian’s Kickstarter project to make a web video series about “tropes vs women in videogames”.
As TVTropes said, tropes are not necessarily bad, but yeah, that’s a topic which could do with some investigation.

*had a look at Anita Sarkeesian’s introductory video*

Sorry, scratch that. A topic which badly need some light poured on it. If only so it could stimulate the game developpers’ creativity and (um, maybe more importantly) reduce our society’s sexism.

She sent an e-mail update just today, linking to a dozen articles or blogs posts reviewing the reaction she had to weather for daring to want to project to express her opinion on the way women are portrayed in video games.

On the plus side, the articles are supportive. On the minus side, the comments are textbook cases of what this thread’s opening cartoon is talking about.

This suggests that it is ok to be catcalled if I am wearing something else (short skirt, heels?), or if not ok, then at least something I should expect.

No, it suggests that, despite those who claim that if women just dress a certain way they will not be harrassed, abused or raped, it does not matter what a woman wears. The fact that she is female is seen as an open invitation to be treated as a sexual object.

IT IS A CURIOUS GAME. THE ONLY WAY TO WIN IS NOT TO PLAY.

The problem is, there is no way that a woman can interact with societal meatspace without others playing the game to her.

Why are you people still talking about me? I’m waiting for this magical conversation.

Do you even fucking read what I and others have written? You are the magic conversation because you are the man in the cartoon come to ‘life.’ You blame women, are dismissive of rape culture, and have decided that the thread should be all about you because you have a penis.

RAPE IS ACCEPTED HERE. The fact that certain people are not just expected to be raped but society applauds the fact that they are.

I clearly remember that, back in high school, I, and many others, admired the boys who did not take no for an answer when they were on a date. The rapist (when someone says no and you either coerce her into saying yes or force yourself on her it is rape, even on a date) was viewed by the boys as a hero and the girl was viewed as a slut and was thus fair game for all boys.

The M&Ms commercial totally counts. It’s such a weird way to advertise it. It makes me uncomfortable and slightly disgusted every time I see it. Now I can’t eat pretzel M&Ms, which I actually rather like.

I derailed the conversation? I’m sorry was this the thread where you guys fix all the woes of society, my bad.

And @ 140;

You people sure think a lot of yourselves. I keep hearing that I’m distracting from some magical discussion that should be happening. Ok, I will do my best to keep out of the conversation from here on out. Please, solve our rape culture in the remainder of this thread.

And @ 173;

Why are you people still talking about me? I’m waiting for this magical conversation.

An integral part of this ‘magic conversation’ you keep sarcastically alluding to is challenging the casual misogyny of a rape a culture that blames the victim and excuses the attacker at every turn. The very fact that people like you and BubbaRich @ 83 and marlorocci @ 117 have reacted so exceptionally negatively to people identifying gender privilege and calling out the toxic, pervasive nature of rape culture in our society shows how deeply normalised that culture is, and how little pushback its more pervasive elements receive.

No one here is making any argument so crude as the caricature put forward by marlorocci that ferminisist believe that ‘all men are rapists’. No one here is making an argument that Western society explicitly endorses rape as BubbaRich claimed. No one here is arguing, as you claim @ 114;

I still reject the idea that it is distracting and thereby promoting rape culture, and that our feeble minds somehow can’t manage to simultaneously take personal precautions WHILE we work towards a better, safer tomorrow.

That somehow addressing rape culture and how it impacts women in their day to day lives amounts to accusing those women of being ‘feeble minded’ – these are gross mischaracterisations of our arguments and of feminism as an intellectual position.

Part of tackling rape culture is to clearly rebut such strawman versions of what it is we are saying, and to highlight examples of unexamined gender privilege such as that which you and the other commnetrs identified above are engaging in.

This is the only way that we can start to denormalise the memes and tropes asasociated with rape culture in society. The process will be a long, slow, hard slog, much as the gay rights and racial equality struggles have been and continue to be. If you are expecting some silver bullet instant solution, then I fear that you are doomed to be dissapointed.

Social tropes and attitudes as deeply entrenched as rape culture form over entire historical epochs, and it is no small matter to dismantle them, but that does not mean that no effort to do so should be made, or that the ultimate goal is not worthwhile.

You will come across people you disagree with on the internet, and if you take the time to try to educate them even when it’s a waste of time, it’s your own fault, don’t you dare fucking blame me for wasting your time because you don’t know how to close your browser.

Say you are undergoing surgery, and somewhere at the edge of your incision, in the middle of the procedure, a vein starts bleeding. It is not particularly close to or related to what your surgeon actually needs to do, but the blood is pooling all over the field and she can’t see anything. She has to deal with that bleeding. It is a waste of time, probably will add at least a half hour to the surgical time. It’s not the primary thing she wants to do. But she still has to deal with it because it gets in the way, and, if she doesn’t, something bad might happen to you.

See, buddy, YOU’RE the bleeding vein here.

Dealing with you is a waste of our time, but IT IS NECESSARY. Remember that thing you barfed up earlier about “solving the rape culture”?

This is it. Addressing ignorant and harmful comments such as yours IS part of what has to be done to SOLVE THE RAPE CULTURE PROBLEM, because ignoring you promotes it. It isn’t the most useful or most effective thing we can do, but, because you blabbed your mouth, WE HAVE TO DO IT, because not answering you makes the problem even worse.

And, incidentally, the way to change a culture, any culture, to solve a cultural problem, any cultural problem, is TO SPEAK UP, and to NEVER STOP SPEAKING UP. You CANNOT change a culture with laws. You CANNOT change a culture with force. You CANNOT change a culture even by genociding all members of it.

The ONLY way you can change a culture is to convince the members of that culture to change their behavior WILLINGLY. And you can ONLY do that by SPEAKING.

Be it on a pulpit, in a letter to a newspaper, a speech to a legislative assembly, a paid commercial on TV, or a blog thread, YOU SPEAK.

Ok so now I’m really confused again. I directed the conversation a certain way, and was accused of “distracting” from the conversation that was SUPPOSED to be happening. So I try to leave, and [obviously snarkily] say, “ok, have your great conversation that’s supposed to be happening. I’m waiting for it”, and the response is that correcting me WAS the great conversation? So how was I distracting from it?

My point is that I’m still missing how suggesting victims take precautions = rape culture promoting.

In my car example, I park in a sketchy parking lot. I see a sign that says “don’t leave valuables visible”. I do not get pissed off at the sign about how it’s thievery-promoting and victim blaming. I might think “well obviously” and move on with my life, but I wouldn’t read darker intentions into the sign, or assume that whoever put up the sign would gladly allow theft to happen.

If you think I’m lying and that this wasn’t my original argument at all, fine. It’s understandable, I did a terrible job of presenting myself in my original post. I was trying too hard to get something posted before the comment count got too high and my post got lost in the shuffle. This is what I meant by “I err’d on the side of Devil’s Advocate”. I’m not trying to say that I completely disagree with my original post, just that it’s not quite accurate of what I was trying to say.

So, assume that I’m the one telling you “don’t do X, it might lower your chances of getting raped”. Why is the response automatically “YOU ARE A RAPE CULTURE PROMOTER” and not just “you are an idiot we already do X” (and for some reason people also say “doing X won’t actually help”, while doing X themselves).

And just so people know I am learning: it did not occur to me before to take offense at the comments because they are condescending. It’s just not something that would have occurred to me, but I honestly get that now. Condescension and malice are different though, and it’s the assumption of malice that bothers me.

My point is that I’m still missing how suggesting victims take precautions = rape culture promoting.

How does a woman taking precautions to prevent herself from being raped stop her from being raped? From being raped by a stranger? Or what about her own husband?

You have repeatedly failed to explain how a woman taking precautions is supposed to deter rapists from attempting to rape her.

Instead, you appear to be more concerned over how we’re so mean to you, and how your primary purpose here is to “stir up a hornet’s nest,” and not engage in any meaningful conversation, while repeatedly failing to stick with the numerous flouncings you’ve made.

Yes Joe your posts have been great. Like the last one where you were in a situation where you knew you might be victimized, and you took steps to protect yourself (by carrying a gun). Very interesting.

oneminusintelligence, you’re either too stupid to get the points that have been laid out for you many times in this thread, or you don’t want to address them because you argue in bad faith. Either way, you’re not worth me wasting any more time on unless I feel like insulting you again.

In my car example, I park in a sketchy parking lot. I see a sign that says “don’t leave valuables visible”. I do not get pissed off at the sign about how it’s thievery-promoting and victim blaming. I might think “well obviously” and move on with my life, but I wouldn’t read darker intentions into the sign, or assume that whoever put up the sign would gladly allow theft to happen.

See, you silly bitches? There’s nothing victim-blaming in telling women not to wear this, not to go there, not to do this, not to say that. Because, you’re vaginas are just like my car stereo or my wallet!

Women are just like ‘valuables’ – a commodity. So, what the big deal?

Why is the response automatically “YOU ARE A RAPE CULTURE PROMOTER” and not just “you are an idiot we already do X” (and for some reason people also say “doing X won’t actually help”, while doing X themselves).

And why call a rape culture status quo promoter a rape culture status quo promoter when he victim-blames? It’s not nice to call someone out for doing exactly what they are doing.

My point is that I’m still missing how suggesting victims take precautions = rape culture promoting.

Because it blames the victim. Because, when a woman is raped, some of the questions asked are: was she drinking? what was she wearing? where was she? what time was it? did she have a chaperone? And if it is the wrong answer, if she has had five stiff scotches, is wearing a miniskirt in a bar at 2:00am by herself, then, to many police officers, many judges, many DAs, many men and women, she could not have been raped as she didn’t take precautions. Forget that a man had to make the decision to rape her. That is, in the rape culture, immaterial. It is her activities which determine whether or not she is a victim of rape or just a slut who failed to take the proper precautions.

Now, are you going to actually read any of the links, read what I and others have written, or are you going to continue to make the same unsupported claim again and again with nothing to back it up with?

So a woman who takes a stroll down a dark alley at 3am is just as likely to get raped as the one who is at home? That’s pretty counter-intuitive to me. If you have some data showing that rape is a completely context-free crime, I’d love to see it. Until then I am going with the common sense response here that there is some marginal benefit possible.

Of course, pointing out such common sense is condescending, I get that now.

This is all completely independent of what I’m saying: why is pointing this out so malicious, and not just condescending (at best) or condescending AND ignorant (at worst).

70% of rapes are committed by someone the victim knows, dipshit. Oftentimes an intimate partner.

I really like your wording “a stroll down a dark alley at 3am”, too. Wimminz are soooooo flighty and silly and always doing stupid things. Kind of like our recent anti-choice troll said as he lamented the plague of women who go through nine months of pregnancy and then decide they want to “abort” their pregnancy once the infant has been born but the umbilical cord hasn’t been cut.

Oh, and you also completely ignored the context I provided above, about how some women live and/or work in “sketchy” areas, and/or maybe work late at night and don’t have the luxury of staying indoors in a “nice” middle-class neighborhood after dark like a “good girl” should.

So a woman who takes a stroll down a dark alley at 3am is just as likely to get raped as the one who is at home?

As has been pointed out before, a woman is more likely to be raped by someone she knows in a place that she knows — home, office, school, friend’s house — than she is to be raped by a stranger in a dark alley.

But, since you bring it up, if a woman does walk down a dark ally, a public street, and is raped, is that her fault? Does it mean that the rapist is not responsible for his actions? Does that mean that the police will ignore the complaint (sadly, sometimes it does)? Does that mean that her friends and family will tell her, “We’re so sorry you got raped, but why were you there? what were you doing? don’t you know better? what were you wearing? had you been drinking?”

After reading the many comments above, I will never again tell my husband, “Better take a coat. The forecast says rain is on the way.” Thanks to all those who have convinced me that any reminder or expression of concern for the welfare of another is sexist and condescending.

So a woman who takes a stroll down a dark alley at 3am is just as likely to get raped as the one who is at home? That’s pretty counter-intuitive to me.

For one thing, are you saying that it is the woman’s fault for being raped in a dark alley? What about being raped at home? Is it the woman’s fault for being raped? How come you refuse to answer? Too busy being a passive-aggressive idiot?

Or, is this schtick of asking stupid questions and deliberately ignoring what we’re trying to say all a part of your “stirring up a hornet’s nest” bullshit?

Oneplus999, as has been patiently explained to you by several people, the ‘take precautions’ speech is one that we have heard repeatedly. The implications are clear: if you don’t take precautions you are to blame. In a community that has heard these things many times you sound uncannily like a victim-blamer and that is a trigger for a lot of people who have experience of these debates on harassment and rape. It puts you in the same camp as the bad guys.

The onus is on you to learn from this and modify your speech so that you no longer make these errors. The onus is on you to follow the conversations and links to understand why this is. Otherwise we will continue to kick and shame you, because that’s the one weapon we have that we know gets results; because we have learned that being polite and genteel rarely gets us anywhere.

Yes, you are right that the conversation has mutated. It began with you being a nasty foreign body, upsetting everyone with your trollish behaviour. Then the penny dropped that you were behaving exactly like the jerk in the cartoon, and to that extent this thread *is* about you. We have moved from A to B in this conversation. What’s important now is for you to ditch your sense of grievance–we are not sympathetic toward someone who has been such an ass–and try to learn something.

So whether or not anyone wants to hear it, I think a lot of the anger is directed at me due to a logical fallacy that a->b means b->a.

A person who wants to make excuses for rape or limit womens rights will often do so under the guise of “if you do this it will prevent rape”.

I am saying “what is so inherently wrong with wanting to prevent rape” even though I DON’T want to make excuses for rape or limit women in any way. What if I just legitimately want to reduce rape? it is assumed that it is still a terrible thing to make these suggestions.

oneplus999: Every ‘precaution’ a woman is ‘supposed’ to take but doesn’t is a strike against her worth as a victim in the eyes of law enforcement in particular and society at large. I’m considering you both condescending AND ignorant here, with a topping of obtuseness.

After reading the many comments above, I will never again tell my husband, “Better take a coat. The forecast says rain is on the way.” Thanks to all those who have convinced me that any reminder or expression of concern for the welfare of another is sexist and condescending.

Thank you so much for both not getting the point and using a strawman argument, you’ve identified yourself as an ignorant troll on your first post!

So a woman who takes a stroll down a dark alley at 3am is just as likely to get raped as the one who is at home?

This is addressed in the comic strip way at the top of the page. That very topic is raised in the panel of the left-hand side of row 3, and the answer that it deserves is given in rows 5-6.

Do you think you deserve some other answer than that?

I get the feeling you’re expecting something like “Gosh, I never thought about it that way before! I guess I’ll stop strolling through dark alleys at 3AM!” My experience with Pharyngula is that you’re not going to get that response no matter how often you beg. You might have better luck on a pay-per-minute chat site.

I think one of the dumbest parts of the “women shouldn’t go jogging at night” argument is the fact that not only does that, in fact, go toward justifying rape culture, it’s not something that actually happens very often.

Most rapes are done by people the victim knows. Most rapes happen indoors (only 4% happen outdoors??? But I thought it was all drunk women walking home from bars!).

So not only are they blaming the victim, they’re doing it with hypothetical scenarios that – by and large – don’t happen very often.

Oh, I will pick one nit with the comic, though. The “1 in 4” statistic is derived from a National Institute of Justice study “The Sexual Victimization of College Women” conducted once in during the 1996 – 1997 school year, and asked women if they’d been the victim of rape in that year, and also asked about experiences prior to entering college.

About 10% reported being raped prior to college (11% reported attempted rape), and 3% reported EITHER rape or attempted rape (ie, sexual assault) during the year. If you extrapolate that out for 4-5 years… well, I’ll let the report speak for itself:

Projecting results beyond this reference period is problematic
for a number of reasons, such as assuming that the risk of victimization is the same during summer months and remains stable over a person’s time in college. However, if the 2.8 percent victimization figure is calculated for a 1-year period, the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.

Anyway, so really it’s 1 in 4 women by the end of college in the mid-90s were either the victims of rape or attempted rape. There aren’t many good studies about women in general (I’d guess college and High School are hotbeds of rape, especially the “psychological bullying” kind that, since the woman wasn’t trying to claw her attacker’s eyes out, the rape-apologists like to pretend is consensual).

Also, along with most crime, rape is down.

The U.S. Justice Department’s National Crime Victimization Survey (considered our best measure of crime because its anonymous surveys capture offenses not reported to police) reports that rape has been falling dramatically for decades. The first survey, in 1973, estimated that 105,000 females, ages 12 to 24, were raped that year. In the 1980s and early 1990s, the survey was expanded to include sexual assault and attempted or threatened offenses. Even so, the latest survey (in a young female population 1 million larger than in 1973) reported that 30,000 females, ages 12 to 24, were raped and 60,000 were victims of attempted rape or real or attempted sexual offenses (including verbal threats) in 2005.

The crime surveys further indicate that the decline in sexual violence is greater among younger females than older women. In the last dozen years, they found that sexual victimization rates among girls ages 12 to 19 fell by 78% and among women ages 20 to 24 by 70%, nearly double the drop among women older than 25.

So we’re not there yet, but we’re making progress! These numbers aren’t really comparable since one deals with college students and another with women 12 to 24, but still. If we try to extrapolate anyway, and assume that rape is dropping at roughly the same rate across the board since the 1997 NIJ survey, you’d come up with a number of something like 1 in 8 or even 1 in 12 are the victims of completed rape.

That’s still breathtakingly high. Before I was enlightened about rape statistics, I’d have guessed that maybe 1 in 100 women were raped during their entire lives. I thought it was a rare crime. I was wrong, clearly. I’m still amazed at how wrong I was about how pervasive rape is in America. But it’s getting better, at least, in no small part thanks to the feminist movement. I just want people to know that it’s getting better. It’s still really bad. *REALLY* bad. But not as bad as it was. Women have made a lot of progress in educating men like me. And more is being made. So it’s not all doom and gloom. We’re moving in the right direction, even if there’s a lot more work to be done.

Oh dear – feel the need to respond to OnePlus999 as a fellow confused male. So in simple terms I think you and Bubba are missing some of the finer points of the argument here… Or at least the way I understand it is to paraphrase Bubba and his daughter example ->
* Yes you are able to give advice to your daughter / loved ones / friends that ‘locking up your valuables’ is a good principle for them personally or engaging in dangerous nude sunbathing might not be good idea for them in your opinion. In fact I have a young daughter and I doubt anyone here would call me a rape promoter if I buy her a rape alarm when she goes to University (You can argue about the effectiveness of it)
–> Now empathy required: Say the worst happens and loved one/ daughter is raped. Do you say to them ‘dumb f*k you should have locked up your valuables / not sunbathed naked’? No obviously not… It would be insensitive to say the least!
I think where you are going wrong is confusing a personal statement of being careful with a bit of general advice to give to all women some of which will have encountered that worst case above and by giving them that advice (Or appearing to by making a a general statement) you are — by implication — calling them dumb f*ks for not locking up their valuables or doing something dangerous that ‘led’ to the rape (Which is obviously not the case as your and mine reaction in the real case would be to want to kill the rapist and not blame our daughter!). You see how that could be seen as a little offensive hence the name calling?

After reading the many comments above, I will never again tell my husband, “Better take a coat. The forecast says rain is on the way.”

Yes, because the sentient person known as the Cycle of Precipitation actively decides to go and commit the criminal act of raining on your husband.
Your husband getting wet is both physically painful and extensively traumatic, and the memory persists for years, through waking days and sleeping nights.

After reading the many comments above, I will never again tell my husband, “Better take a coat. The forecast says rain is on the way.” Thanks to all those who have convinced me that any reminder or expression of concern for the welfare of another is sexist and condescending.

Here’s what it’s really like: “Hey, better take a coat, it looks like rain. Also, if in spite of your precaution, you get wet and catch a fever from it then: our doctor won’t treat you, our insurance won’t cover your burial and all the newspapers will say you deserved getting rained on for getting in the rain’s way.”

I apologize for messing up my blockquotes. Here’s the fixed version if anyone cares. :)

I think one of the dumbest parts of the “women shouldn’t go jogging at night” argument is the fact that not only does that, in fact, go toward justifying rape culture, it’s not something that actually happens very often.

Most rapes are done by people the victim knows. Most rapes happen indoors (only 4% happen outdoors??? But I thought it was all drunk women walking home from bars!).

So not only are they blaming the victim, they’re doing it with hypothetical scenarios that – by and large – don’t happen very often.

Oh, I will pick one nit with the comic, though. The “1 in 4” statistic is derived from a National Institute of Justice study “The Sexual Victimization of College Women” conducted once in during the 1996 – 1997 school year, and asked women if they’d been the victim of rape in that year, and also asked about experiences prior to entering college.

About 10% reported being raped prior to college (11% reported attempted rape), and 3% reported EITHER rape or attempted rape (ie, sexual assault) during the year. If you extrapolate that out for 4-5 years… well, I’ll let the report speak for itself:

Projecting results beyond this reference period is problematic
for a number of reasons, such as assuming that the risk of victimization is the same during summer months and remains stable over a person’s time in college. However, if the 2.8 percent victimization figure is calculated for a 1-year period, the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of a college career—which now lasts an average of 5 years—the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions might climb to between one-fifth and one-quarter.

Anyway, so really it’s 1 in 4 women by the end of college in the mid-90s were either the victims of rape or attempted rape. There aren’t many good studies about women in general (I’d guess college and High School are hotbeds of rape, especially the “psychological bullying” kind that, since the woman wasn’t trying to claw her attacker’s eyes out, the rape-apologists like to pretend is consensual).

Also, along with most crime, rape is down.

The U.S. Justice Department’s National Crime Victimization Survey (considered our best measure of crime because its anonymous surveys capture offenses not reported to police) reports that rape has been falling dramatically for decades. The first survey, in 1973, estimated that 105,000 females, ages 12 to 24, were raped that year. In the 1980s and early 1990s, the survey was expanded to include sexual assault and attempted or threatened offenses. Even so, the latest survey (in a young female population 1 million larger than in 1973) reported that 30,000 females, ages 12 to 24, were raped and 60,000 were victims of attempted rape or real or attempted sexual offenses (including verbal threats) in 2005.

The crime surveys further indicate that the decline in sexual violence is greater among younger females than older women. In the last dozen years, they found that sexual victimization rates among girls ages 12 to 19 fell by 78% and among women ages 20 to 24 by 70%, nearly double the drop among women older than 25.

So we’re not there yet, but we’re making progress! These numbers aren’t really comparable since one deals with college students and another with women 12 to 24, but still. If we try to extrapolate anyway, and assume that rape is dropping at roughly the same rate across the board since the 1997 NIJ survey, you’d come up with a number of something like 1 in 8 or even 1 in 12 are the victims of completed rape.

That’s still breathtakingly high. Before I was enlightened about rape statistics, I’d have guessed that maybe 1 in 100 women were raped during their entire lives. I thought it was a rare crime. I was wrong, clearly. I’m still amazed at how wrong I was about how pervasive rape is in America. But it’s getting better, at least, in no small part thanks to the feminist movement. I just want people to know that it’s getting better. It’s still really bad. *REALLY* bad. But not as bad as it was. Women have made a lot of progress in educating men like me. And more is being made. So it’s not all doom and gloom. We’re moving in the right direction, even if there’s a lot more work to be done.

My point is that I’m still missing how suggesting victims take precautions = rape culture promoting.

The problem here is that, by suggesting that women ‘take precautions’, you are ignoring certain realities of rape. What about the very common occurance of so called ‘aquantaince rape’ where the woman knows her rapist? How does she ‘take precautions’ against that?

What about spousal rape? Or incestuous rape within a family unit (both far from uncommon)? What ‘precautions’ should be taken there?

How does a woman ‘take precautions’ to avoid being raped in a world where ‘Shroedinger’s rapist’ applies? Rapists do not look like rapists – there is no convention on the appearance of rapists that requires them to have dirty beards and wear trenchcoats – a woman has no way to know if that guy who is approaching her in that dark carpark/getting into that elevator with her/following her down that alley/just joined her team at work/started attending her gymnastics class last week is just another bloke who is maybe a little insenstive about her personal space and does not consider that the situation they are in might be intimidating to her, or is a rapist, or a person who doesn’t think of themselves as a rapist but might go along with the idea that a woman who doesn’t dress like a nun and who smiled at them that one time on the bus is offering some sort of come on, and that her resistance now is just her being coy and coquettish and playing ‘hard to get’…

How is a woman to ‘take precautions’ when she can’t tell just by looking which men are rapists and which are not, without isolating herself from the society of men completely?

Women already take all the precautions they can – society is forever hammering home the idea that women must always be on guard. Even our mythology is redolent with such imagry – why do you think that folkloric vampires prefer to drink virgin’s blood? It is the trope of something bad befalling a woman who goes out at night and doesn’t ‘take sufficient precautions’, and thus loses her virginity (and her life, but the former was definitely seen as more valuable than the latter by the cultures where these mythologies first arose). Why do you think that so many Hollywood horror movies replicate the trope that ‘sex = death’, especially in regard to young, often teenage, female characters?

But all these precautions can ultimately do little to prevent rape when there is simply no such thing as a wholly safe place – rapists aren’t monsters conveniently identified by fangs, horns and talons. Rapists are, all too often, friends, employers, lovers, husbands, fathers, brothers – how is a woman supposed to ‘take precautions’ against that?

My point is just that it’s possible to do both. We can work towards a better society where rape isn’t a problem AND we can take sensible precautions until then. I’m failing to see the relevance of the distribution of types of rapes. There are a non-zero number of rapes committed by people the victim knows. There are a non-zero number of rapes committed by strangers. Maybe we should take precautions for both WHILE STILL DOING EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO FIND AND BRING TO JUSTICE THOSE WHO COMMMIT RAPE. Caps since some people seem to think I must disagree with that part of it.

So a woman who takes a stroll down a dark alley at 3am is just as likely to get raped as the one who is at home?

Think of the implications here and follow through the chain of argumentation. The notion that women must restrict their movements to be safe is not far from arguments used by actual jurists that they should restrict their mode of dress and their choice of men and… well, we end up with women who, if they are not virgins in gingham, must be slutty slut-sluts and deserving of their rape. This is the kind of victim-blaming that happens on a daily basis.

I wish you would not continue to argue along these lines. It will not go well for you.

And again, my lesson for today is that pointing this out is condescending, and often (but NOT ALWAYS) used as an excuse for rape. My point is just that it doesn’t have to be malicious, like the original responders to my first post assumed.

oneplus999: OK, I’m going to try to explain this in simple English: When you suggest obvious precautions to “prevent” rape, you imply that the potential victim shares blame with the rapist for the rape because they didn’t “take precautions”. It’s that simple.

Women get raped no matter what they do, where they are, how they’re dressed, how much or little they’ve drunk. Rapists can be fathers, brothers, friends, neighbours, someone from your gym, your local vicar – they come in all shapes and sizes and from all walks of life. The only thing this small but select group all have in common is that they rape. Often repeatedly. Often getting away with it.

I am saying “what is so inherently wrong with wanting to prevent rape” even though I DON’T want to make excuses for rape or limit women in any way. What if I just legitimately want to reduce rape? it is assumed that it is still a terrible thing to make these suggestions.

If you will still not accept that you wrote what you wrote, what’s the point? You engaged in obvious victim blaming. Then you denied it. You have also engaged in the tired old ‘just asking questions’ game. Loaded questions are not polite, not civil, not useful, and tend to be a pain the arse because first one has to explain why the question is loaded and by the time one is done that it has been repeated.

So what if you do legitimately want to reduce rape. So fucking what! I’m sure you’ve heard the old saw, “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me”? Well, it is bullshit. Words do hurt people. Victim blaming is done with words and it has made rape one of the most under-reported crimes in the US. There are women who have been raped but, because they believe the sexist meme that it is up to the woman to not be raped, they don’t even see what happened as rape.

Words fucking matter, whether or not you intend them to matter. Telling children to shut up and obey the adults put in charge of them matters. Telling women that, if they don’t follow these rules and they get raped, they are at fault matters.

So far, I have seen you commit a massive faux pas, deny it, and then claim you were playing devil’s advocate. It really doesn’t matter which of these excuses you use, the point is you wrote it, you got called on it, and you are still trying to defend it. Which means that, no matter what your intentions are, you are part of the problem. You are telling readers, here, that when a man rapes a woman, it may not be his fault. Do you understand this, and do you understand why this is wrong?

i appreciate those of you who managed to keep a civil tone.

I have been patiently explaining to you, in multiple ways, why you are wrong (as have others). You have decided to play games (denial, devil’s advocate, just asking questions) which are rude and uncivil. They make an actual discussion very difficult. And then you complain about the tone?

Do you read any of this, other than cherry-picking for your next bizarre ‘I don’t understand’ question?

People still conflating “suggesting prevention” with “blaming the victim”…

You are telling women that if they don’t do this, that, and the other thing, they won’t get raped. What happens if she does get raped? Well, for one thing, the police and legal system will also look at whether or not she did this, that or the other thing and, based on the answers, decide whether or not to investigate or whether or not to prosecute because they blame the victim.

Caps since some people seem to think I must disagree with that part of it.

I agree fully with the part in all caps. You fail to understand that setting up women to take the blame when are raped does the exact opposite.

I’m really curious about people’s experiences in this regard. It’s also apropos to the cartoon, since it certainly shows that talking about it matters and is productive.

It was a long process, and it’s still undergoing. I would summarize it as “age brings wisdom”.
Well, sometimes.

It helps to have lots of interactions which challenge your opinions – small talk with acquaintances, assays, cartoons…
So yes, tl;dr version: talking about it does matter.

It certainly helps when someone tell you in your face that your position is shallow and ill-informed. Especially if you hold this person in high esteem.
You either close yourself like a clam, or you learn that things are more complicated than you believed. I did both. But when you learn, you feel empowered. Like completing a jigsaw, now you see a bigger picture.

In a number of cases, it was more about deepening my understanding than changing my opinion. I knew something was not right, but needed some time and a bit of a push to finalize my views on the topic. Getting out of my comfort zone and all that.

In some cases, like homosexuality, I did a complete 180 somewhere in my 20’s. Not to my sexual orientation, but to my acceptance (need some more work, through). I was actually mirroring that happened in my society (still need lots more work).
My mom changed her own opinion at the same time, and this helped, too, as we often debate together on one topic or another.

One of my big regrets: having shown myself so much of an idiot to this woman colleague who told me one thing or two about glass ceilings, white men privileges and so on.
The very week-end which followed this, I found this cartoon with the title “what is gender equality in the worplace?”, 8 clueless dudes parroting “equal job, equal wages” (guy #3 was looking like me), and in the last, bottom case finally a woman shyly talking about career opportunities, work and life balance, and the like. It was so spot on, something went click into my head.
I wish I saw it before our discussion.

So rape IS 100% context independent? You are sure there is absolutely nothing that can be done to have any impact? I never said that precautions will reduce rape to 0%. Just that there may be some marginal benefit.

And again, I would never blame the victim or in any way say that a rapist who rapes a woman in a dark alley at 3am is in any way less culpable than a home-invader or roofie-using rapist. Those are independent from what I’m saying.

People still conflating “suggesting prevention” with “blaming the victim”…

Because that is how victim blamers work, do you not understand this?

To take a extreme example, if you look at the excuses given by Muslim fundamentalists for the reasons why women must wear a burqa, it is all couched in language insisting that it is for the woman’s welfare and protection.

Suggesting that women must restrict their behaviour to prevent sexual assault is a slippery slope that leads you to a very unpleasant place. It’s restricting and punishing the wrong person. It means you are reinforcing rape culture, not helping dismantle it.

quer1234: “1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted” is very, very well supported and basic information. It’s also routinely lied about and dismissed. That’s why I keep reference material in my hoard, because SOME dipshit well-meaning ignoramus will always question that statistic.

Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1
28% are an intimate.1
7% are a relative.1
He’s not Hiding in the Bushes

More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occured within 1 mile of their home or at their home.2

4 in 10 take place at the victim’s home.
2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.

FFS, you really are a member of the non-cognitive elite, aren’t you? You clearly did not understand what I said. Have you read nothing of what people are trying to tell you? Read the Feminism 101 link, you might just learn something.

You are sure there is absolutely nothing that can be done to have any impact? I never said that precautions will reduce rape to 0%. Just that there may be some marginal benefit.

Rapists rape. That is the only thing that the act of rape has in common. Babies are raped, children, teens, adults, the elderly, all in different situations and in different contexts, settings and places. The only way to prevent rape is to teach people early what rape is and that it’s fucking unacceptable. There is no other common factor other than a rapist deciding to override one person and harm them for the rapist’s own gain.

I’m assuming malice now. Don’t worry, I haven’t ruled out fucking idiot either, the two often go hand in hand.

My point is just that it doesn’t have to be malicious, like the original responders to my first post assumed.

But to much of society, law enforcement, and the criminal courts, it is used as a way to blame women no matter what the intent was. You may intend it to be helpful. In the real world, it doesn’t work that way.

’m not implying anything,

By telling women what they should or should not do in order not to be raped, you are implying that you blame them when they get raped because they did not listen to you.

And, just for shits and giggles, what are these magic precautions that will stop rape cold?’

you are inferring something I never said.

Read your comment number 7. You excused rapists by saying that if the valuables are on display, it is not the rapists fault.

You are sure there is absolutely nothing that can be done to have any impact? I never said that precautions will reduce rape to 0%. Just that there may be some marginal benefit.

Nope, you haven’t shown anything like that, fuckwit, because you:

A. have not actually stated your “totes effective rape prevention tipz”, and
B. your tips (which are probably things like “wearing anything other than a Hefty bag when you go outside means it’s your fault if you’re raped”) are useless.

Any kind of rape prevention “tip” that isn’t “DON’T FUCKING RAPE PEOPLE” puts the onus of “prevention” (and thus blame) on the VICTIM. Are you so incredibly goddamned jellybrained that you don’t get that? Because so far, I think you are. Or maybe that you’re intentionally trolling and deserve a banhammer to the face.

After reading the many comments above, I will never again tell my husband, “Better take a coat. The forecast says rain is on the way.” Thanks to all those who have convinced me that any reminder or expression of concern for the welfare of another is sexist and condescending.

Rain doesn’t decide to beat down on your husband. Rapists are not inanimate forces of nature. Your analogy is fatally flawed.

So a woman who takes a stroll down a dark alley at 3am is just as likely to get raped as the one who is at home? That’s pretty counter-intuitive to me. If you have some data showing that rape is a completely context-free crime, I’d love to see it. Until then I am going with the common sense response here that there is some marginal benefit possible.

When most people think of rape, they visualize an unknown lunatic violently dragging a defenseless person into a dark alley. This is a very inaccurate portrayal. Almost four out of five rapes are committed by attackers who knew or recognized their victims (National Center for Victims of Crime & Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, 1992).

And that’s just the percentage who know their attackers. That doesn’t include people who are raped in their own homes by people who force their way in, people who are raped in hospital or other institutional settings, people raped on cruise ships, and other places that are where they have a right to be rather than being “out on the streets alone at night”.

I really hope that there are some lurkers out there getting some benefit from y’all’s writings, because oneminusabrain appears to be incapable of actually grokking what is being written and I would hate for all of y’all’s good work to be going to waste.

Every ‘precaution’ a woman is ‘supposed’ to take but doesn’t is a strike against her worth as a victim in the eyes of law enforcement in particular and society at large. I’m considering you both condescending AND ignorant here, with a topping of obtuseness.

Quoted for fucking (depressing) truth. THIS.

If you aren’t a virgin (preferably white) jumped by a stranger (preferably black) in a busy street (only not busy enough for people to notice you being raped?) in front of the church after your abstinence club meeting in the middle of the day (because what were you doing out of the house at night?) and beaten to a pulp so that you were unable to kill yourself resisting (because it’s better to be killed for fighting back than to be raped, duh) while still inflicting wounds on the perpetrator that can later be used to match him with DNA taken from your defensive wounds (because, duh, be considerate!) and immediately afterward react in the “right” way which is running out naked, screaming and sobbing and being identifiably crazy at the prospect that your entire worth was ripped away from you, but yet not too traumatized to communicate exactly what happened, insist on having a rape kit done and manage to accurately remember the rapist’s face and/or other identifying features for ease of verification of your “alleged” rape…

If anything other than the above occurs (and sometimes even then!) you will probably never even see a rape case opened, go to trial and/or adjudicated.

Because you didn’t take the “right” “precautions” and therefore it can’t be proven to be “rape-rape”.

If a tool is used (in this case, precaution), to continuously oppress women with, restrict their movements, hold them responsible for the violence committed against them by invoking said tool and generally (precaution, in this case) as a bludgeon upon the already bloody bodies of the oppressed…

Yeah, don’t be surprised if the oppressed start balking whenever the tool is whipped out, no matter what your “intent”.

So fuck you and all your “precautions”. Women have long since learned that in the language of the patriarchy, “women should take precautions against being raped” means “You were raped? If you don’t fit the scenario stated above, it’s was your fault, at least in some small way, and you won’t ever see justice and anyway, why didn’t you do better than allow yourself to get raped?”

It makes me sick to my stomach to remember that there was a time I sounded like oneplus.

I’m just chiming in to thank those people doing their best to educate the fucking troll. He may never learn, but there are plenty of lurkers out there who’ve manged to pull our heads out of our asses because of you.

Special thanks to Pteryxx for all the linkstorms, I haven’t read em all, but I’m trying.

“Yes you are able to give advice to your daughter / loved ones / friends that ‘locking up your valuables’ is a good principle for them personally or engaging in dangerous nude sunbathing might not be good idea for them in your opinion.”

The part about nude sunbathing baffles me. The poster appears to think that exposing 15% more skin to the sun than one would if conventionally ‘covered’ somehow quadruples the risk of deadly sunburn.

Either that, or the poster expresses the standard American Christian view that nudity equates to sex and constitutes permission in advance for a sexual attack. Me, I’ll stick with the principle that a short skirt is NOT a come-on … and neither is no skirt at all.

You know, you can reduce your risk of being burglarized by doing stuff like getting good locks for your doors, installing a home security system, suspending your newspaper subscription when you go on long holidays so the papers don’t pile up on your porch and show that no one’s home, not carelessly revealing information about long vacations, and so forth.

This is all a given, all considered common sense. Everyone does it automatically, if they wish to be cautious.

But the thing is, when one DOES get burgled, no one makes a big deal about having that inferior door lock. People don’t go derailing blog threads about how you should have installed that home security system. No one even assumes that the burglar should somehow, even partially, be excused because you tempted him by prominently displaying that Rembrandt near your living room window and not closing the curtains. There’s no old burglar’s club of prominent and powerful people willing to excuse and cover for the burglar.

I am listening. Here are the two major things I’ve gotten out of the conversation:

1) Pointing out precautions can be taken is condescending. I won’t ever make that mistake again. We are already on the subject now so obviously it’s too late.

2) Rape-apologists use this as part of their reasoning, and so if you ever use this reasoning (even if you are not a rape-apologist), it’s easy to get mistaken for a rape apologist.

I feel truly sorry because it is likely that many people read my first post, and my followup posts, and assumed I was a rape apologist, which likely darkened their view of the world. In post #23 I said

Ps: I don’t blame someone who got broken into their car any more than I blame someone who gets raped. And of course, I have far more antipathy for rapists than for vandals and thieves.

Unrelated…

Apparently people don’t know what “100% context-free” means. It doesn’t mean that SOME rapes are context free and unpreventable, it means ALL RAPE EVERYWHERE EVER are context free, and women might as well walk around naked at 3am as sleep in a steel cage, because nothing matters.

**insert all the sane caveats about rapes are still the criminals fault, women are not property and are free to do as they please etc, here**

When I was a teenager, a couple of other teens got into my car one night and took about two dollars in change. We called the cops and it turned out that a string of such car burglaries had been happening in the neighborhood and the cops ended up catching them.

My car was not locked. The change was sitting on my center console in the open. At no point did a cop tell me that a theft didn’t occur, or that the theft was in any way my fault, because of those things. They were focused on catching the fucking thieves because they were thieves. Those cops gave me and my handful of quarters more consideration than you’re giving actual grown women, oneplus. That’s why you’re an unrepentant asshole and unsalvageable moron. GO. THE FUCK. AWAY.

“1 in 4 women have been raped or sexually assaulted” is very, very well supported and basic information. It’s also routinely lied about and dismissed. That’s why I keep reference material in my hoard, because SOME dipshit well-meaning ignoramus will always question that statistic.

I’m still amazed that the problem of that magnitude. Like, literally, the mathematical definition of magnitude. I’d have seriously guessed rape was a one in a hundred problem. I’d have rolled my eyes if anyone suggested it was 1 in 10 to me. I’d have laughed at someone who told me 1 in 5. I’m still shocked at 1 in 4 (because, obviously, even if it wasn’t “completed” rape, it’s still a big issue for the woman involved!).

I think getting the statistics out there is important, because I think people need to realize it’s such a problem. I don’t think most people know how pervasive it is. However, I think we should be careful about using the statistics correctly, as to not leave room for attack. 1 in 4 women being the victim of rape or sexual assault is still a horrible, abhorrent, and shocking number. No need to stretch the truth and say it’s the number for completed rape.

Boy, I just love all the ‘prevention tips.’ Nothing is more awesome than being raped by someone you’ve known for years, who you’ve talked to for hours about consent and the importance of an enthusiastic yes, and being asked all the routine questions, like:

What did you do to give him the wrong idea?

What were you wearing?

Why were you alone with him?

Don’t you think that you should have known better than to have a beer with him?

Well, you poked him in the side while watching a movie, so you probably led him on. Why don’t you recognize that you made him rape you?

If only I had learned not to have male friends, or to be alone with any male person, or to wear a burqua, instead of jeans and a t-shirt, or to never drink in public, or to just never leave the house, or never advertise (by existing), I could have avoided the entire situation.

And goodness, last Tuesday when I spent the entire night at a skeptics drinking event being forcibly groped by one of the attendees, even though I repeatedly punched him, I should have known better than to attend a drinking event without a bodyguard, let alone wearing a tank top (the bar has no air conditioning).

Thanks, Bubba and oneplus. I had no idea how much I contribute to my own rapes and sexual assaults.

No need to stretch the truth and say it’s the number for completed rape.

In every case, ‘completed’ or not, someone has thought it was A-OK for them to at least attempt to assault someone, never mind ‘complete’. Why not just replace it with that in your mind? Is that thought not bad enough already?

No need to stretch the truth and say it’s the number for completed rape.

In every case, ‘completed’ or not, someone has thought it was A-OK for them to at least attempt to assault someone, never mind ‘complete’. Why not just replace it with that in your mind? Is that thought not bad enough already?

Precaution #1) Don’t go walking down dark alleys at 3am.
Precaution #2) Keep an eye on your drink when you are at a bar.
Precaution #3) When going out to a club, go with friends who you trust to get you home, and preferably a responsible DD.

There was that so hard?

Common sense? Yes. Condescending? Definitely, this has been established. If every woman in the world did this instead of the opposite, would there be more rapes or less rapes in the world today?

Malicious? Only if it is THEN used for rape-apology, which I never did do and never would do.

Normal caveat: all of this should be done IN ADDITION to education and justice to prevent rape in the first place.

The comments section here is not forgiving. You’d think people could figure that out, but it’s like watching someone stick their hand in a blender once, and when they discover they didn’t stop the sharp whirly thing the first time, they do it again and again and again, while all the spectators are yelling at him to stop sticking his hand in the blender, you fucking moron!

Oneplus999, how’s the hand? I recommend that you stop right now, or I’ll take actions to prevent you from grossing everyone out with your self-mutilation any further.

pharylon: reporting’s complicated by the varying local definitions of exactly what constitutes “rape” as opposed to “sexual assault”, especially since the FBI definition – which is supposed to guide local reporting in the US – was only recently expanded. That’s not even getting into underreporting and victim suppression. It’s a huge topic though and prone to (even further) derailing, so for now I’d suggest reading the wiki and if you’re interested in going into depth:

Precaution #1) Don’t go walking down dark alleys at 3am.
Precaution #2) Keep an eye on your drink when you are at a bar.
Precaution #3) When going out to a club, go with friends who you trust to get you home, and preferably a responsible DD.

None of that stops acquaintance rape, or spousal rape, or rape by a relative.

You’d added nothing new to the conversation, all you’ve done is waste people’s time and energy going over the same shit feminists (and women in general) always have to go over with fucks like you. How many more times do I have to say it? SHUT UP AND GO AWAY.

Perhaps, oneplus, I should go ahead and point out that my rapist had known me for years, agreed that night that we were just hanging out as friends (explicitly, before I would go out), is a local fundraiser for liberal causes, and had agreed with me that consent is important.

It’s almost like rapists lie to get women alone. Gosh, who’s a girl to trust?

As someone who like you apparently, suffered from the Good Guy syndrome (I’m a good guy, why do you keep telling me I’m wrong?), here are my 2 cents:

And again, I would never blame the victim or in any way say that a rapist who rapes a woman in a dark alley at 3am is in any way less culpable than a home-invader or roofie-using rapist.

This is precisely why people here are dogpiling on you: you may think you mean well, but your posts betray a view of the topic too often seen elsewhere. A view in which rape occurs because you were in the wrong place at wrong time.
Well, it’s technically true; if you had been somewhere else, you wouldn’t have been assaulted, eh?

However, this view has two negative correlations and an in-built failure:
1 – it’s basically saying “just don’t go here, just don’t do that, and nothing will happen”. In other words, it’s your own fault for being assaulted for failing taking some basic precautions. Like putting you house on fire for forgetting to turn off the kitchen gas. This is victim-blaming, and it’s taking for granted that the aggressor will be here, no matter what. It’s working on the consequence, no on the cause.
It’s also defining zone of rape (3am in a dark alleys, an intruder in your own house) and zone of “stop lying, slut, you wanted it” (about anywhere else).

2 – it’s telling women “sorry, you are not free to go anywhere you like”. Not because of something they do, but because of the existence of perverts. Women are punished for the wrongdoing of others. That’s not fair.

And the failure: your post shows you are acting on the too common idea that rape is when a dark stranger jump on an innocent woman. However, the statistics rom assaults (all types, not just rape) show that in 9 times our of 10, the aggressor is known of the victim.
So when you don’t have a choice, how do you go around avoiding your colleagues, your postman, your own family?

I must say, oneplus999, I’m getting really, really irritated at not only your JAQing off but your complete and utter nonchalance. For you, this is all just one big mental masturbation, isn’t it? Why, you can afford to play “devil’s advocate” and “debate” and “score points” and whatnot, can’t you?

I can’t. I was raped. I wasn’t a perfect victim, even though I was a fucking CHILD at the time. I wasn’t believed and my rapists still live in my family.

Because I didn’t take “precautions”

What you are doing here? It’s contributing to legitimising a trope that’s causing ACTUAL FUCKING HARM in the ACTUAL FUCKING WORLD to ACTUAL FUCKING PEOPLE.

And for those of us who this happened to or could happen to (meaning anyone with a vagina), this shit is NOT academic, it’s NOT a fucking debate, it’s not a rhetorical scorecard.

If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.

The only way rape culture will die out is if men start holding rapists solely responsible for raping. The whole “prevention” and “precaution” tool that places all the responsibility on the woman and restricts her movements in ways that mens aren’t restricted, is now starting to be recognized for what it is.

People still conflating “suggesting prevention” with “blaming the victim”…

Hoy fuck you are one seriously stupid asswipe. THEY ARE THE SAME FUCKING THING!!!!! Whenever you tell a person that doing this/wearing that/saying this/being there/drinking that will get her raped, you are functionally telling her that, if she does those things – like any person living in a supposedly free country would – that she’s participating in the crime. If she wouldn’t have worn that skirt, rape magically wouldn’t have happened. If she didn’t go out drinking that night, rape magically wouldn’t happen.

And, police, lawyers, judges and juries DO THE SAME FUCKING THING.

Your “suggestions” are worthless. Get it through your bank vault thick skull. THE ONLY THING THAT PREVENTS RAPE IS THE ABSENCE OF A RAPIST.

I’ve “strolled” down the street at 2 a.m. slightly tipsy and wearing club clothes, and I wasn’t raped. You know when I was raped? When I was at home with ex. Where’s your “rape prevention” tips now, asswipe? what should I not have done, not have worn, not have drank that would have prevented those rapes?

We can work towards a better society where rape isn’t a problem AND we can take sensible precautions until then

Because bitches are so fucking dumb that, despite being raised in a rape culture and being taught from fucking birth all your worthless “rape prevention tips”, they don’t know what to do without YOU telling them.

Jebus I wish Caine were here to tear into this idiot…

Seconded eleven billionty time. Caine is awesome and its not the same without her.

Crap, so sorry for the “anyone with a vagina” thing in 289 – I totally didn’t even notice it until the re-read. Stupid normalization of cisnormativity. Please substitute instead “anyone who runs a higher risk for being raped than a straight white cis dood”.

Discounting the majority of rapes, which don’t happen on nights-out, all of your ‘precautions’ there would only apply to a woman who was out at a drinking event late at night. Even those ‘precautions’ do not prevent the rape of the woman who checks all of those boxes; a predatory individual will not let bright lights or attention to drinks or accompaniment stop them.

Rapists do not have ‘skeeve’ or ‘criminal’ tattooed on their foreheads – the really nice guy you’ve been talking to all evening turns out to be deaf to ‘no’, the black cab driving you home (safest transport in all of London) turns out to be not safe at all.

Malicious in that you continue to repeat that rape has a ‘context’ after it has been repeatedly pointed out to you that a victim cannot cause themselves to be raped – only the rapist is the common denominator in an assault.

Not that straight white cis doods aren’t raped also. They are. It’s horrible. The point I was making was that those with a higher likelihood for being raped tend to be more aware of that increased likelihood.

K, shutting up now until the consumption of copious amounts of coffee.

Also, y’know what contributes to the *presence* of a rapist? Getting away with previous rapes because a) the victims thought being raped was somehow their fault, and b) because the myth of stranger rape is so pervasive that even when victims DO report, they’re disbelieved and actively trashed.

Victim-blaming keeps these guys on the streets.

Citation: the vast majority of acquaintance rapes are committed by repeat rapists who know exactly what they’re doing:

So a woman who takes a stroll down a dark alley at 3am is just as likely to get raped as the one who is at home? That’s pretty counter-intuitive to me.

So, you made certain to go look up to see where/when/by whom women are typically raped, yes?
Because you honestly didn’t know and wanted to learn?
Or am I misunderstanding your motives here?

If you have some data showing that rape is a completely context-free crime, I’d love to see it.

Wait a sec, you did go look this up, right?
Because you honestly don’t know and want to learn… right?

Until then I am going with the common sense response here that there is some marginal benefit possible.

Apparently I did misunderstand your motivation.

Oh, and BTW: science exists because common sense is not sufficient to navigate a complex world.

Of course, pointing out such common sense is condescending, I get that now.

If something is common sense, why do you have to point it out to someone? Because they lack common sense?
Are you of the opinion that assuming that women need to be told common sense things (presumably because they lack common sense) is not condescending?

Alright, I’ll bite – what is the primary quality about you that makes you better at determining how to fix women being raped than, yanno, the women?
Please don’t say you aren’t making that claim, because you are – you are telling women what they should and shouldn’t do, and they are telling you you are contributing to the problem, and you’re telling them they’re wrong. Repeatedly. So, what makes you better at this than them?
Your mighty common sense, so lacking in women? Or something else?

This is all completely independent of what I’m saying: why is pointing this out so malicious, and not just condescending (at best) or condescending AND ignorant (at worst).

How many times do you have to ignore good answers from people who know more about a topic than you do before ignorance becomes malice and/or stupidity?
Is it a larger or smaller number of times you’ve done it here?

You’re the white guy arguing with his black friends that he’s not part of the problem because he’s not in the Klan, and heck, blacks should just quit living in places where there are violent gangs – why is that so hard? And then getting pissed when he’s told he has no fucking idea what he’s talking about.

COnsider prayer: Completely useless, time wasting activity that allows the prayer to feel like they’ve helped a sick friend (for example) while having done absolutely nothing. Its a selfish, self-centered activity that allows the prayer to feel pious and oh-so-helpful.

Consider ‘rape prevention tip’ givers: Completely useless, time wasting activity that allows the “tipper” to feel like they’ve help protect potential victims while having done absolutely nothing. Its a selfish, self-centered activity that allows the “tipper” to feel pious and oh-so-helpful.

Pteryxx: I’ve done my best to stick to ‘people’; I’ve fucked up a few times and just put ‘women’, sorry. I’ll do better.

There is a Thing going on at the moment with a few ‘skeptic’ people I know on Facebook and Twitter who are arguing about the definition of rape. There is a core of two or three (who I know have said shit like this before) who are specifically insistent that rape requires a penis, and that no other act or definition can be included. It drives me fucking crazy that people feel entitled to vomit the dictionary all over crimes against real live breathing human people. I’m no longer friends with these guys precisely because they started spewing misogynist crap all over the web – but I was friends with them before, because they seemed like ‘normal’, intelligent, skeptical people. And I was wrong. And it now chills me to even think of being in the same room as them, let alone paying to go to somewhere where these kinds of maggot-ridden people wander freely.

pharylon: reporting’s complicated by the varying local definitions of exactly what constitutes “rape” as opposed to “sexual assault”, especially since the FBI definition – which is supposed to guide local reporting in the US – was only recently expanded. That’s not even getting into underreporting and victim suppression. It’s a huge topic though and prone to (even further) derailing, so for now I’d suggest reading the wiki and if you’re interested in going into depth:

Rape statistics are tricky, that’s true. To a large extent, there’s something of a murky line between where “sexual assault” ends and “rape” begins.

For instance, take the psychological bullying spouse. The wife comes home and doesn’t want sex. It’s been a bad day. She’s got a lot of emotional stuff going on. In bed, the husband kisses and strokes and gropes and complains they haven’t had sex in so long and when is she going to get out of this funk? He makes her feel bad about her refusal until finally she gives in and has sex to shut him up. Was she raped?

Most people here would say yes, I imagine. But I’m her. Actually, I’m a guy. I reversed the sexes there in that last paragraph. But it happened to me. And I don’t consider myself a rape victim. In the end, I made a choice and it was to have sex with someone I was in a committed relationship with – someone I’d had consensual sex with before and would again.

And I don’t want to claim the “rape victim” label, because I don’t want to denigrate what women (and men) who’ve had a traumatic rape experience. I don’t know what it’s like when you REALLY can’t say no. When your boss threatens your job or you’re physically restrained, or you risk some sort of social stigma. I don’t consider my experience traumatic. I don’t even consider it rape even though it fits the classical definition.

At the same time, I don’t want to tell a woman who’s been through an experience similar to mine that she didn’t get raped. It’s not my place to tell a woman in a marriage that just because she said “yes” on the fiftieth time after forty nine “nos” that it wasn’t rape. If she says she was raped, she was raped.

But rape can be in the eye of the beholder, is my point (the beholder of the victim, NOT the attacker or anyone esle, to be clear). I’d be counted as a rape victim in the NIJ survey. But was I? Probably not. And in that survey only 46% of women who fit the classic definition of having been raped said they’d call their own experience “rape.” So were they raped?

There’s a serious issue of women often not considering psychological abuse and bullying that leads to rape, rape. Rape can and does happen that doesn’t involve physical restraint. So yes, some of those women who say they weren’t raped really were. Some of them may have had an experience like mine, and it probably really wasn’t.

So where’s the line? What are the “real” rape statistics? Can anyone really know? Fuck if I know. I don’t even know what the point of this post is anymore. I seem to be meandering around a bit.

Anyway, to sum up, I guess I’m just going to say that rape is a serious problem, and it’s far more pervasive than I’d have ever thought. It’s really scary what the percentages are. And whether it’s 1 in 4 or 1 in 10, it’s still breathtakingly high.

1) Pointing out precautions can be taken is condescending. I won’t ever make that mistake again. We are already on the subject now so obviously it’s too late.

No. What we’re trying to explain to you, and what you seem to be deliberately ignoring is that, if a woman fails to take all of your precautions to avoid rape, and thereby gets raped, is she still at fault for getting raped? If a woman follows all of your precautions to the letter, and she still gets raped, is she at fault for getting raped?

In American society, the answer is “yes, she’s at fault for being raped.”

What we’re trying to say, and what you seem hellbent on ignoring is that this is a bad thing

An acquaintance of mine was raped — by a stranger, at 3 AM, leaving a bar by herself. She was pulled into an alley, but there were people on the street. She was walking to the corner to catch a cab.

Later, at the police station, she was in the ladies room smoking a cigarette and crying. A police woman came in, and she washed her hands, looked at my friend’s reflection in the mirror and said, “I would never let anyone rape me.” Then she walked out.

My friend didn’t ‘let’ anyone rape her. By definition. She was spending a Saturday night in the same way that every other person inside that bar was. It might be comforting to pretend that we have control over everything that happens to us. But we don’t. Out of the clear blue sky come terrible things that just strike you but not the people standing around you.

We like to pretend that we have control precisely because we don’t, because we’re terrified, because we see victims and think, “Uh-uh, not me.” Our terror makes us respond with cruelty, it makes us shut down our compassion, it drives us to make the victim as unrelatable as possible. That would never happen to me. I’m different. I carry pepper spray. I wear pants. I don’t stay at a bar past eleven….

It’s a defense mechanism and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual victim, only with the person observing the victim.

And of course that mindset means that if one of those different people who would never let that happen ARE assaulted, their shame is increased, their trauma that much worse because, in their minds, they let it happen.

There are people who are reading your words who are victims of rape. Right now. This very minute. And if you think for one second that their first thoughts following (and during) the attack weren’t, “what could I have done differently, if only I had made this decision instead of that…” you lack a basic understanding of the human psyche.

But you know what? It wasn’t the victim’s decision to be raped (BY DEFINITION). Someone else made that choice. Someone else. And when you go on about locking up valuables (which, I guess amounts to “stop being female”), you’re really saying that it was the victim’s decision that got her raped. You’re telling that to victims who have already told themselves that over and over and over again.

And chances are, you’re telling that to victims who never reported their attacks because they felt culpable. And chances are, you’re telling that to future victims who read your words, and their ilk, and think, “I would never let anyone do that to me…”

*cough* Rape can also happen to non-vagina’ed people, just to remind y’all. *cough* At least by the NEW FBI definition.

There is a whole different set of tropes associated with the rape of non-vagina’ed people, that suck in elelmets of society’s background homophobia and toxic constructions of masculinity that mean that a male victim of rape may not be inclined to report that rape due to a belief that doing so will impugn his ‘manliness’.

Though it is interesting that, where a man does report rape, we get far less of this ‘what were you wearing?’, ‘how much did you have to drink?’, ‘did you lead them on?’ stuff then you get if the victim is a woman…

That said, there is one particularly obnoxious trope associated with the sexual assault of underage boys by women – the idea that the boy in question is a ‘lucky little git’ and ‘must have enjoyed it’.

On balance, it is true that rape culture, like other elements of the patriarchy, hurts men as well as women, but I think it is pretty clear that it harms women disproportionally more than it does men in this case.

Of course, the police often handle the sexual assault and rape of transgendered and intersex people spectacularly badly as well.

pharylon: thanks for recounting that. The genders being switched, or the same, doesn’t change the definition. That’s one reason why the person who was forced or pressured really needs to consider how the definition applies to their situation. Relationship or not, male or not, your consent counts just as much as anyone’s, you know.

I’m sorry that you felt pressured into something you didn’t want to do, pharylon, and thank you for your story. It’s a shitty thing to do to someone, even if that knowledge is tempered by the love you had for her, and I’m glad that you feel that you’re OK about it now.

“Even if you leave $1,000 in plain sight on your dashboard, someone else still has to make the decision to break the law and rob you. If a woman walks into a bar at 2:00am naked, someone else still has to make the decision to break the law and rape her.”

What does her state of dress have do with the matter? Why do you and others implicitly assume that nudity equates to sex?

But this is definitely true. There’s nothing wrong with telling your SO. “Be careful at the party tonight.” But that’s not how you prevent rape.

The problem is broadening the “be careful” policy to the point that it becomes one of the main arguments of preventing rape. It assumes it’s the MAIN way to stop rape, when in fact it isn’t, because most women are (obviously) already trying not to be raped. You tell a friend to be careful? That’s fine, and unless you have some specific information about someone you suspect of using roofies or taking advantage of drunk women, not very useful. It’s more about showing compassion for your friend than anything else.

But when it’s your first go-to in a rape discussion, that’s the problem. Because you’re implying the main cause of rape is women not being careful, whether you mean to or not.

What if I just legitimately want to reduce rape? it is assumed that it is still a terrible thing to make these suggestions.

By making the suggestions, you are giving the rapists justification for their actions. If a woman wants to walk down the street nude, barring local laws, she should be able to without anyone touching her.

This position you’re taking is similar to the position of men in muslim countries, where in order to prevent unwanted male intrusion, you should cover up the females. Yes, wearing a burqa might make it less likely for someone to be assaulted, but that’s not the right way to approach the issue.

Why even send out the police to investigate robberies? The homeowners should have reinforced their house with iron bars and top-of-the-line electronic security. “Yes the robbers were at fault, but still…”

After reading the many comments above, I will never again tell my husband, “Better take a coat. The forecast says rain is on the way.” Thanks to all those who have convinced me that any reminder or expression of concern for the welfare of another is sexist and condescending.

What a shitty analogy. A better analogy for your position would be to come across a handicapped victim of a drunk driver and inform them that they shouldn’t be out driving when bars are open.

Obviously, not many people intend to cause harm – but harm is caused. The decent thing for a person who has been corrected or educated, who has been made aware of the harm, to do is to apologise for the harm caused. That happens less often than it should.

A woman’s state of dress has lots to do with whether or not she is believed or taken seriously when reporting a rape.

Whe I was in high school, a girl that I knew was raped by a man in his 20s. She reported the rape. The police investigated. They got the guy. During the investigation, she was asked what she was wearing. It being summer and she being at a pool, she was wearing a bikini. The district attorney decided not to bring the case to trial as he knew that the provocative clothing which she wore would make a conviction difficult if not impossible. The girl was kicked out of her church. Publicly and with almost full details. She went to live with an uncle in Virginia and was pressured into a marriage to a 30-year-old man when she was 17 — for her own good. Because she had a history of leading men on through her dress and then crying rape.

A woman that I know was raped. I have not talked with her about the rape — this is through Wife so some details have been changed. She came out of a bar at closing time (in the town in New Hampshire, that was midnight). She called for a cab. The cab did not show up. A man she had met in the bar offered her a ride. She accepted. She was raped. When reporting the crime, the police enquired about her level of intoxication; whether she thinks it is a good idea to get into a car with acquaintance at midnight; the also photographed her from all sides and was subjected to comments regarding how sexy she looked in those jeans and tight t-shirt; one of the officers commented that, with looks like that, no wonder he wanted you. She was also told that, although she claimed to have said no, there were no defensive wounds and her clothing said yes.

So yes, in the eyes of law enforcement and the legal system, as well as the culture of many parts of the United States, yes, what she was wearing matters.

Why do you and others implicitly assume that nudity equates to sex?

I do not. I think you have misread me. My point was (and I (as usual) failed to make it adequately) that all of the rape prevention tips that focus on clothing are traps used to blame the victim. I was also pointing out that, no matter what a woman does or how she looks, a man must still make the decision to rape her.

Yes, wearing a burqa might make it less likely for someone to be assaulted

It doesn’t. Women who cover are just as susceptible to being raped as women who don’t. Additionally, the presence of a highly religious, patriarchal and authoritarian culture in many majority-Muslim countries just makes incest, family and spousal rape unreportable, and therefore persistent. The situation for women in Egypt in particular recently has worsened.

Mitt and Rick are in the woods when somehow they startle a bear. They take off running with the bear close behind them. “Mitt,” Rick pants, “We’re never going to be able to outrun a bear.”

“I don’t have to outrun the bear,” says Mitt. “I only have to outrun you.”

That’s a lot of crime prevention in a nutshell.

Echoed, because it’s damn important. I think this is what’s lost a lot of the time when arguing with morons and their rape “prevention” tips. Women can’t get rid of the bear. If I’m not walking naked through the alley at 3am, someone else might be and they get raped instead, because the bear is still there. Hooray for me, but no rapes have been prevented. If no one walks through alleys at 3am naked, then the bear starts attacking people at midnight, or learning slight of hand to sneak drugs into drinks that its victims are watching or whatever. Because it’s a fucking rapist and it wants to rape people and will make sure that it can.

One of the small comforts I get is knowing that the man who raped me was, at the very least, not raping someone else during the period while he was abusing me. He’s a predator and raped women before me and probably continues raping women today, but for a few years at least, that role was played by me and no one else but me had to suffer. (I mean, besides myself and my friends and family, but who’s keeping score, right?)

That’s my problem. One the wrong has been pointed out, once the error has been elucidated and explained and toiled over again and again, you’ve realised that you’ve been a douchebag – how is the answer then to double down and heave at those goalposts?

Emrysmyrddin, even after I explained how and why I changed my mind, onedouchecanoe999 took the exact opposite lesson from it than what was intended. There’s dumb, and then there’s just being contrary for the sake of trolling.

At this point, for both oneminusabrain and jenny, I am assuming bad faith. I really think that they are/were both trolling and are both playing gotcha games a la joey. I do not pretend that I will be able to change hir mind. I (or the eloquent ones) might be able to elicit a light-bulb moment for one of those lurking and reading but not commenting.

After all, there are three commenters who have been on this thread, me included, who have grokked by participating. How many might grok in partial fullness through lurking?

Also, in case anyone is friends with Matt Dillahunty on Facebook, he just posted this comic to his wall and it’s rapidly turning into a “that 1 in 4 statistic is a total lie! False rape accusations!!!” clusterfuck, if anyone’d like to help me out over there.

jenny6833a: Are you seriously incapable of telling the difference between situational interpretations?

A woman’s dress matters when she is raped and others are interpreting that rape as legitimate/illegitimate. A woman’s dress does not, however, matter, because it is immaterial to a rapist’s choice to rape.

Assuming that you think that’s wrong, please put some effort into changing it.

Why do you assume I don’t?

So why did you use an example related to how she was/wasn’t dressed?

Because one of the common ‘don’t get raped’ tips is to not dress provocatively. And, two of the women I know who were raped were both told, in effect, that it was their fault because of the way they were dressed. There are far too many rapists out there who do not think that they are rapists because if a woman is dressed a certain way, she is asking for sex so no rape can happen.

So, do we agree that her state of dress or undress is irrelevant?

Yes and no. It is irrelevant to whether or not she is raped. It is very relevant as to whether the police and/or the courts and/or her family and friends and church and everyone else take the rape seriously.

Did you read the two anecdotes I provided? If so, why are you asking these questions? Are you hoping for me to slip up?

I feel like it’s a kneejerk reaction to assume that someone who says “don’t go out late at night” is ignoring the real problem.

You do know that some women go out late at night because they have to, right?

Oh, no, I’m sure that it never even occurred to you that there are poor women who can’t afford a car or a taxi, who have to walk city streets sometimes, at night, to and from work.

I’m one of them.

Of course, it wouldn’t make a difference if we went out at night stark naked and danced down the street for the fun of it. Still, the privilege inherent in advising women “don’t go out at night–I’m just concerned for your safety hurr hurr!!!11!” is tooth-grindingly offensive.

Also, in case anyone is friends with Matt Dillahunty on Facebook, he just posted this comic to his wall and it’s rapidly turning into a “that 1 in 4 statistic is a total lie! False rape accusations!!!” clusterfuck, if anyone’d like to help me out over there.

Called it, not that it wasn’t a gimme. *sigh* I’m not on Facebook, but here:

plus the Wiki and other links I gave above, especially Meet the Predators because it’s rapists self-reporting, not those lying wimminz.

pteryxx

07.07.2011

Quoting my own comment from Jen McCreight’s blog:

—
According to “Meet the Predators” which references men self-reporting their rape attempts, a sample of about 1900 male college students contained 120 who announced 438 attempted or completed rapes. Let’s say those rapes happened to the comparably sized female student population, and for the sake of argument, that any given woman was ‘only’ assaulted once. What would 438 rapes and sexual assaults among 2000 or so women work out to?

One of the small comforts I get is knowing that the man who raped me was, at the very least, not raping someone else during the period while he was abusing me. He’s a predator and raped women before me and probably continues raping women today, but for a few years at least, that role was played by me and no one else but me had to suffer. (I mean, besides myself and my friends and family, but who’s keeping score, right?)

I really want to give you a cup of tea and a big slice of cake and an appropriate-amount-of-personal-space hug. :(

You’re a great memory-jogger, carlie. Thanks to all who have talked about their experiences on here – hopefully at the least someone reading will be rethinking their assumptions, and I’m grateful for that.

It seems to me that the examples given about how a woman’s clothing can contribute to rape, show a problem with law enforcement and the legal system.
I cannot understand how such people cannot empathize with the victims of rape, and the fear most women have for the possibility of rape ( given the terrible statistics)

Crommunist has an excellent guest post up about this, it’s calledScience Says We Should Blame the Victim. The point of the article is, of course, the exact opposite; the author, Brian Lynchehaun, explains that with rape, as with any crime, while there are activities which criminals use to target likely victims, avoiding engaging in those activities does not actually reduce the incidence of that crime, it merely shifts it to people who aren’t educated about those activities, or just don’t have the choice about whether to engage in them (e.g., women who have to work the night shift and can’t not walk down dark streets at 3 am because that’s when they’re going to work). And if everyone stops engaging in those activities, then the criminals simply find other markers by which to identify easy targets.

What does prevent rape and other crime? We don’t know the full answer to that yet, but one important part of the answer is getting those who do commit crimes off the street and into prison, and the “don’t walk down the street drunk at 3 am” advice merely ensure that rapists who are smart enough to target drunk women at 3 am will continue to get away with their crimes.

This has been a very frustrating day for me because my infant charge is not at all understanding of my desire to keep up with the conversation.

Much appreciated. I’ll hand the cake off to my best friend, who revealed to me last night that being an onlooker to the whole thing gave him PTS-esque triggers based on my experiences. Violence, the gift that keeps on giving.

I’m surprized by the number of posters who seem to think that mangling someone’s nickname (e.g., ‘oneminusbrain’) helps them make a valid point. Same for gutter language. I automatically discount the opinion of anyone who does that.

I’m also surprized by accusations of trolling and bad faith towards anyone who disagrees with the majority. Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters.

Yes, let’s all do everything we can to eradicate rape and eradicate condescention towards others of either gender. Neither will happen overnight. In the meantime, I see no conflict whatever between pursuing those goals and taking preventative measures. Preventative measures include urging caution.

Oh yes, Jenny’s definitely a troll. Complaining about language without addressing points made by others. Whitewashing all context away until it is all about “disagreeing with the majority” without addressing any points made. And then doubling down on the same stupid trolling point as though nothing has been said to demonstrate how stupid that point is.

This comic (political cartoon?) really makes me uncomfortable in all the right ways. It’s got me thinking about society as a whole and my network of guy friends and the uncomfortable fact that a lot of them don’t see women the same way I do.
I know the above is about as vague a statement as you can read and I apologize for that. I need, maybe, to elucidate.
I grew up around strong women, and by that I mean I grew up within a web of informal matriarchs – decision makers who are willing to listen at the same time. Almost all the women in my family are either college educated, bullheaded, or both. These mighty figures in my life live lives largely free of drug or alcohol abuse because they just won’t put up with it, while at the same time aren’t willing to subject their spouses or significant others to it. Those who break the mold? Well… they’re not particularly happy individuals, as the men they find attractive (perhaps in youthful rebellion) are often unsafe in one extreme or another. The family recently saved one and her toddler from such a relationship with an ultra-controlling guy who “found Jesus” to the point where he tattooed a crucifix across his forehead.
What I’m trying to say is, I’m used to women being politely venerated, openly respected, and definitely enjoyed by the men in my family. So I read the comic here, and suddenly a lot of how my guy friends act suddenly makes sense.
It also puts some pieces into place regarding my interactions with women outside of the family. They always seemed so skittish and it wasn’t until I was 20 when I got why. Watching Comedy Central, a standup comedian had to spell it out for me, “Imagine that half of the entire planet was bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than you. Now imagine that they ALL want to fuck you.” Also, in a socially-romantic way, most if not all of the women I’ve dated have had body image problems of one kind or another. Which, I can say with perfect hindsight of my ignorance, was extremely annoying. I try to make them feel special (which they are, being people that I just so happen to care about), and I kept on hearing, “No, I’m ugly. I hate myself. I’m not worth it. Why do you try?” It’s very hard to be sweet when you’re not trained to be manipulative.
So, yes, I’m very glad I read this comic; it’s got me thinking. Not just about my own, personal, experiences because every dismissive man does that. “Well, I don’t have a problem, why are you bringing it up?” doesn’t make things better. The fact of the matter is, you and I might not be aware of the problem because it’s just so difficult to think beyond ourselves. Keeping track of the subconscious, sometimes atavistic cues and the social tolerances that promote oppression of women, rape culture, and shame-based control is extremely difficult if not impossible for men. Why? Because we tend to be very oblivious; we are barely aware of what we do to ourselves let alone what we do to others. Which is why, guys, we need to LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE WE ARE UNKNOWINGLY HURTING. Instead of brushing them off, or telling them there’s no problem (something that I learned from my sister will only make a situation worse), ask them for an example and try to work out a solution. Much more practical, anyway, than burying our heads in the sand, yes?

Just as a comment, you’d appear somewhat more intelligent if you spelled “surprised” and “preventive” correctly. But there’s no requirement for you to do so. You can continue to be a dumbfuck if that’s your pleasure.

So a woman who takes a stroll down a dark alley at 3am is just as likely to get raped as the one who is at home?

I’m failing to see the relevance of the distribution of types of rapes.

Hahaha. As my best friend in undergrad would have said, …you’re RILL dumb.
—
So, here’s the deal, JAQing-off “prevention”-flogging morons. Sure! If no women are out in alleys at 3am, that certainly will prevent aaaaall the rapes that are committed against women in alleys at 3am. *applause* Fantastic that you’ve figured that out. “Don’t be in a place, and you won’t be raped there!” But this is kind of a silly line of reasoning, isn’t it? See, I was raped in my bed. More than once, actually, but let’s go with the time where I was sleeping first. Now, if I hadn’t been in my bedroom in the morning asleep, that would have prevented me from being raped in my bedroom that morning. But that’s… hardly useful, right? “Rape prevention tip: Don’t sleep in your bedroom.” Other prevention tips derived from my experiences would be similarly silly: “Don’t be friends with people who turn out to be rapists.” “Don’t date people who turn out to be rapists.” Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind.

Rapes happen everywhere. Here’s where the distribution of “types” becomes particularly important. I assume that if you’re around here, you think of yourself as a skeptic, right? What you do as a skeptic is you start with the evidence, and you work up. Rapes committed in a way that fits the societal narrative are extremely rare. Evidence shows that the bulk of rapes are acquaintance rapes. But it’s not reasonable to expect women not to have acquaintances, right? Everyone knows that. It would pretty definitely reduce rape, if women spent all their time in small locked rooms with no one else in them. But that would be terrible, right?

Now, interestingly, here’s the thing: that is pretty much what I do. Not all my time, because I attend classes, but I rarely socialize in meatspace and I generally don’t leave the house if there is an option not to. I am only comfortable with my door locked, not just the one to the outside but my bedroom door as well. When I do leave my room, I am on my guard pretty much all the time. And it is, in part, due to the fear of rape and my desire not to have it happen again. But it wouldn’t be considered reasonable to tell all women to behave like I do, right? Just because I do it, and just because it may reduce my risk of being raped, that doesn’t mean it’s an acceptable way to live, or to advise someone else to live. And I bet you get that.

So what you’re doing is focusing on a small and non-representative sample of rapes that may happen in ways that fit the societal narrative of Dangerous Female Behaviors which has been passed on to you by the rape culture, completely ignoring the fact that there is nothing or okay fair about women being restricted from these behaviors with the threat of rape, completely ignoring the fact that since rape happens everywhere and to every kind of person, the Dangerous Female Behaviors narrative is obvious fucking bullshit, giving women the Blinding Insight that they can prevent being raped in alleys at 3am by not being in alleys at 3am, and then blithely insisting that this is about rape prevention rather than about the control of women. This is why you look like a moron.

I’m surprized by the number of posters who seem to think that mangling someone’s nickname (e.g., ‘oneminusbrain’) helps them make a valid point. Same for gutter language. I automatically discount the opinion of anyone who does that.

How interesting. I automatically discount the opinion of tone trolls, in the main because they use complaints about tone as a means to shut down discussion.

I’m also surprized by accusations of trolling and bad faith towards anyone who disagrees with the majority. Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters.

It’s a good thing I’ve already discounted your opinion otherwise I’d have to add false equivalence to the list of your trollery.

I’m surprized by the number of posters who seem to think that mangling someone’s nickname…helps them make a valid point… I automatically discount the opinion of anyone who does that.

It’s ironic, see, because mangling someone’s handle no more invalidates their argument that enhances it.

Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters

All people on this board are participating in what our founding fathers optimistically called the “marketplace of ideas.” We go out and we seek other ideas and by that meeting we (almost) all learn and change our views, grow as people and help hammer out solutions to the issues which face our society.

Burning someone at the stake is murder. The are alike neither in kind nor degree.

In the meantime, I see no conflict whatever between pursuing those goals and taking preventative measures.

I’m sure all of the women (and men!) arguing about this do change their behavior in an attempt to to minimize danger. As many have pointed out, it’s really more about making you feel safer rather than being safer. And those are personal choices where we weigh our freedom of movement in a (supposedly) free society against our fear.

All of this energy people expend on telling women to, you know, act different,confine themselves to towers and just accept diminished freedom for their own good, would be better spent on lowering the number of rapes that occur. Teaching our young men to have zero tolerance for the mistreatment and degradation of women, pushing for better law enforcement protocols and training, and calling out unhelpful crap when we hear it.

I’m surprized by the number of posters who seem to think that mangling someone’s nickname (e.g., ‘oneminusbrain’) helps them make a valid point. Same for gutter language. I automatically discount the opinion of anyone who does that.

And yet you responded to me. Odd, that.

Gutter language is not incivility. Incivility is repeating the same ‘I don’t understand’ leading question again and again while refusing to actually read or respond to the responses. Incivility is playing gotcha games and cherry picking. Using ‘gutter language’ is a way of saying, “I am angry at the way that [commenter] is treating the subject and/or other commenters.”

I’m also surprized by accusations of trolling and bad faith towards anyone who disagrees with the majority. Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters

So when someone drops in with a statement that reeks of victim blaming, then denies that the statement was made, then claims it was done as a social experiment to gauge reactions, then claims xe was only asking questions (while ignoring the answers and explanations), what should be done? Is that person a troll or not? Someone who is cherry picking comments to create gotcha questions and then complains about tone — troll or not troll? All we can do is judge by the words written on the screen. If someone wants to have an honest debate, great. But an honest debate involves actually reading what the other commenters have written and responding to that, not a repeat of the same tripe that has already been dismantled.

Disagreement with the ‘majority’ is frequent and, sometimes, quite vituperous. But, generally, when someone disagrees, they are expected to bring something to the table to help change minds or opinions.

No one here is burned at the stake. We are not a church or a religion. We do, sometimes gleefully, sometimes sadly, ridicule and insult those who disagree and refuse to actually provide evidence for their stated position.

In the meantime, I see no conflict whatever between pursuing those goals and taking preventative measures. Preventative measures include urging caution.

And this shows, again, that you have not read the comments on this thread. This has been dismantled twelve ways from Sunday by multiple commenters. These preventive measures are used, again and again, as an excuse not to investigate, not to prosecute, not to support, a rape victim.

I was raped by my scoutmaster when I was about 10. Please tell me just how being careful would have helped me when his wife took the other six or seven scouts on a three-hour hike, leaving me and the rapist at the campsite? What precautions should I have taken? Should I not have worn shorts, or whitey-thighties, or taken my t-shirt off on a warm afternoon? Maybe my buzz-cut was too much for him? What preventative measures could I have taken? (I spent 30 years thinking it was my fault anyway)

Rapists view their victims as things. Things that will give them pleasure. We have spent the entirety of recorded history telling women what they should and should not do in order to avoid being raped. Preventative measures? Bullshit. Enabling rules is what they have been. Protection of property.

Why do you continue to tell the victims that they should have done something different? Why not work to change the culture so that a man’s conquests are no longer a badge of honour? Why not treat victims like human beings? Maybe we should try that. Couldn’t hurt. Blaming them has never stopped rapes.

I’m surprized by the number of posters who seem to think that mangling someone’s nickname (e.g., ‘oneminusbrain’) helps them make a valid point. Same for gutter language. I automatically discount the opinion of anyone who does that.

I don’t discount the opinions of someone who can’t spell ‘surprised’ (it would be idiotic to use such a childish metric to determine the worth of a claim) but seriously, that shit was in Dick & Jane books.

I’m surprized by the number of posters who seem to think that mangling someone’s nickname (e.g., ‘oneminusbrain’) helps them make a valid point.

Sigh. Yet more priggish whining about how rude everything is, without engaging a single substantive point.

I’m also surprized by accusations of trolling and bad faith towards anyone who disagrees with the majority. Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters.

You mean apart from the burning bit?

In the meantime, I see no conflict whatever between pursuing those goals and taking preventative measures.

Neither does anyone else. If you weren’t so belligerently stupid, you’d realise this. The problem is with safety advice being delivered in a patronizing manner, which apportions blame onto any rape victim whose case doesn’t fit into a simplistic evil-stranger-lurking-in-the-night narrative.

If you have any real safety tips, then please share them. If you’re just going to parrot patronising clichés about dark alleyways, then shut the fuck up.

I’m also surprized by accusations of trolling and bad faith towards anyone who disagrees with the majority. Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters

They shouldn’t have been out posting on the internet at 3 AM wearing such a short intellect. This was so avoidable if only they took precautions.

I don’t discount the opinions of someone who can’t spell ‘surprised’ (it would be idiotic to use such a childish metric to determine the worth of a claim) but seriously, that shit was in Dick & Jane books.

Not kewl

I’m also surprized by accusations of trolling and bad faith towards anyone who disagrees with the majority. Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters.

I think we should kill all the black people.

Hey don’t all burn me at the stake just for disagreeing with the majority! I’m the misunderstood underdog

PZ posts a spiffy cartoon that captures the exhaustion and frustration of women who simply cannot win when discussing sexual harassment and rape. It portrays a man who denies, traverses, counterclaims and dismisses because he cannot see beyond his own privilege.

Then Oneplus999 turns up, derailing the thread and displaying a carbon-copy cluelessness of the cartoon antagonist. He could not be a more perfect illustration of the nightmare the cartoon discusses. And despite a savage kicking and repeated explanations, he remains extraordinarily obtuse. Even when he says he’s learning something he tries to reframe his original argument by repeating it in its ugly entirety.

And now we have Jenny, echoing Oneplus, and adding a side dish of tone trolling to the mess.

Me: In the meantime, I see no conflict whatever between pursuing those goals and taking preventative measures.

Hyper: Neither does anyone else. If you weren’t so belligerently stupid, you’d realise this. The problem is with safety advice being delivered in a patronizing manner, which apportions blame onto any rape victim whose case doesn’t fit into a simplistic evil-stranger-lurking-in-the-night narrative.”

Show me where I’ve said anything remotely resembling the patronizing tone you describe. The fact is, until my example below, I haven’t offered any safety advice whatever.

Hyper: If you have any real safety tips, then please share them.

Jogging with a large dog along is good for the dog and a quite effective personal safety measure.

Hyper: If you’re just going to parrot patronising clichés about dark alleyways, then shut the fuck up.”

Show me where I’ve done that. You can’t, so you’re just blowing baloney. You and quite a few others.

Oh, and thanks for the juvenile ad hominem with which you began. Are you just beginning puberty, perhaps?

Jogging with a large dog along is good for the dog and a quite effective personal safety measure.

Assuming that you’re not allergic to dogs. Also assuming that you aren’t afraid of large dogs. Also assuming that you live somewhere that allows large dogs*. Also assuming that your attacker is a stranger. Also assuming that your attacker doesn’t carry pepper spray.

Sorry PZ ban if you must but I’m getting lots of people directing comments at me :\

Never did I say
*that this would prevent all rapes
*it would have prevented your rape
*if you don’t do these, then it’s your own fault
*that you should be required to follow MY rules for preventing rape.
I gave my silly list up above because people kept goading me to provide such a list. The real list is this:
1) Use your own common sense to avoid rape.
2) Don’t rape.

Here’s the analogy, going back to my original:
You see a sign in a parking deck, it says “don’t leave your valuables out where they are visible”. Your car gets robbed. The police officer asks if you left your valuables out. You say yes. He then blames you for the crime.

I think it’s feasible to have the sign out there, regardless of how stupid, incorrect, or condescending it is, and still COMPLETELY DISAPPROVE of the police officer’s behavior.

I honestly do now realize that having the sign up PROMOTES the police officer’s behavior in this case, even if the person who put the sign up had no such attitude himself WHICH MAKES THE SIGN A STUPID MISTAKE THAT SHOULDN’T BE THERE AS LONG AS THE POLICE ARE THAT STUPID. But at the same time I’m saying the sign itself isn’t wrong, which is where a lot of our actual disagreement is coming from. So, I hereby apologize for what I said not because it was inherently a bad thing to say, but because, in our current society, it promotes the assumption that the latter is okay, which was entirely not my intention.

To turn my own argument back on myself, if we were in an ideal world where victim-blaming didn’t exist, I could freely ask the question “can a woman do anything to reduce her chances of getting raped?” and there wouldn’t be a crowd of fratboys and ex-boyfriends and police officers out there to interpret this as acceptance of victim-blaming. But in the real world, they almost certainly DO hear it as such, regardless of my intentions. Even more importantly, rape victims themselves hear it as such, and for those of you I hurt I really am sorry.

Is there a DING for claiming the high ground on “ad hominem” and insults in general and then in the very next sentence resorting to insult?

No. The dings are for the actual list of the internet arguments. There’s no one specifically for Ad Hom or tone; BUT I consider those parts of extreme tunnel vision since that’s what the attempt is they’re just too dumb to pick a valid nit to pick

I’ll leave out the details of my assault, but if a certain noone999 was correct, there are a few things I could have done to prevent my rape, such as: (TW just in case)
1. Not be in my house
2. Not wearing my pajamas
3. Not be 5’1″ and not nearly confident enough to feel I could take on a 6’2″ 250 lbs purple belt

When I finally got away, he followed me, called me repeatedly demanding to talk to me, broke into and cornered me in a friends apartment building and when I finally went to try to get a restraining order against him the next day, I was told by the policeman that I should go back to my ex and wait until things calmed down. He also decided that it was an appropriate time to tell me that when his ex wife left him, she became a homeless junkie. When I finally tried to have my ex charged, the policewoman said that despite believing me, she couldn’t charge him because he didn’t ‘verbally’ threaten me (because physical intimidation and forced imprisonment dont’ count apparently).
The sucky part? I submitted so that I could get away relatively unhurt and he was never going to see me again. I tried to think of it as my way of gaining the only kind of control I could get, but in reality that control was an illusion. I wouldn’t have had to make that choice if only he’d taken the first and subsequent noes at face value. My tip for rape prevention? Don’t rape anybody you fucking moron!

Me: In the meantime, I see no conflict whatever between pursuing those goals and taking preventative measures.

The conflict is that these preventative measures that I guess I should be recommending to the women I know tend to involve not doing things that I have been doing my whole life. How can I tell a woman not to walk down a dark street alone at 3 a.m.? I can’t count the number of times I’ve done that, without fear, without incident. In my younger days, I often did so while helplessly drunk.
Without being condescending, how can I tell women not to do things that I’ve always had the privilege of doing while essentially taking my safety for granted?

Such posters are no different in principle than those who burned at the stake anyone who disagreed with the majority on other matters.

Sure, if you overlook the part about the burned person being dead and unable to voice an opinion on anything, ever again, while you not only keep breathing but are allowed to continue to post your unpopular opinion here. Yeah, no difference in “principle.”
Fuck.

Show me where I’ve said anything remotely resembling the patronizing tone you describe… Show me where I’ve [parroted patronising clichés about dark alleyways].

You defended “oneplus999” when he was (rightfully) attacked for doing those very things.

Oh, and thanks for the juvenile ad hominem with which you began. Are you just beginning puberty, perhaps?

Yes, ad hominem is a very impressive sounding Latin phrase, and I’m sure that by using it, you feel all grown-up and clever. Unfortunately, for others to share that self-assessment, you have to use the phrase properly. It is not a sophisticated synonym for “insult”.

Even more importantly, rape victims themselves hear it as such, and for those of you I hurt I really am sorry.

I don’t believe you. You tried to lie, backtrack, win by losing, and dance around. You blatantly ignored people telling you why it was insulting…TWICE. I predict you’re just going to keep repeating your advice (IS THE COMPUTER PLUGGED IN!?). Don’t try to be “RIGHT” acknowledge you were wrong and say so.

Oh, and thanks for the juvenile ad hominem with which you began. Are you just beginning puberty, perhaps?

Seriously? Seriously? Look if you’re going to call someone a cocksucker please make sure that a dick is currently not actually within your own mouth. It’s both ridiculous and it makes it hard for people to understand you.

ONeplus if you’re sincere you’ve made such an ass of yourself already that the best thing you can do is shut up, wait, read, listen and join back in later once you’ve learned to be a grown up. Insisting your ready for big boy pants right after you shit yourself is not convincing.

I am so angry right now I could breathe fire. I’m on a friends Book of Faces post arguing with a guy with the EXACT same position as onewhateveritis999, calling PZ and the like ‘internet feminists’ and pretty much completely ignoring how people really react when you put the onus of prevention on the victim. Between this, abortion bills, and the stuff in Michigan–just from TODAY–I’d say I was considering moving countries but I think I’m just on the verge of giving up.

oneplus, you’re actually still missing part of the point. I refer you to the last paragraph of my post above. You are not taking a skeptical, evidence-based approach to rape prevention. You are accepting the societal narrative of how rape happens, then giving women advice based on that, while paying no attention to the fact that the “advice” derived from rape culture, even when you try to separate it from victim-blaming, is more about control and restriction and tripwires than about preventing rape.

Been outta the loop and missed a few days of Phayrnuglatin. Just wanted to say in response to, the comment that “this is not a rape culture” not because it is worthy but because it was stated here in this thread.

My dad loved movies and used to take me all the time. I remember one in particular, a Clint Eastwood western from the early 70s. I don’t remember the name as I’m writing this, but it’ll come to me. Anyway, there’s scene in it where Eastwood’s character rapes a woman (the scene is a barn, or stable, IINM). Flat out forcibly rapes her and of course she ultimately loves him for it. I know cinema rapes are common (tragically) but Eastwood was portrayed in this movie, as in all of his films, as the good guy.

I remember being stunned and looking over at my dad who looked ashen. Pale. Aghast, he grabbed my hand and we left the theater. He never watched another Eastwood movie again (I confess that I have). This movie and Eastwood’s role won accolades (sorry the name escapes me just now). What he did was accepted and his character was portrayed as how good strong men are supposed to be.

I learned then, though I was too young to really grasp its significance, how acceptance of rape permeates our (American) culture.

Well we all know PZ is just trying to get laid (despite seemingly not being poly or open much to the disapointment of ladies and the bear enthusiasts)

PZ’s reputation as a reasonable scientist is definitely tarnished by the way he sets aside reason in exchange for chivalry–i.e. the defense of women and femininity even when it’s clear that the other sex really deserves the defense. He likely rationalizes this with a conspiracy theory called “patriarchy” wherein women are infantilized and treated as robots with no free will.

It’s quite funny how someone can be so rational in some areas but completely credulous when it comes to patriarchy “theory”.
I really do think that men like him behave this way because of deep, evolutionary pressure to compete with other males for the favor of females. It’s not impossible, that’s for sure. It would be difficult to prove but, it makes perfect sense and is completely logical. I mean, those who didn’t behave in a sycophantic manner towards women would almost certainly not have reproduced in numbers as abundant as their competitors, right? I’m not evolutionary biologist, but the idea at least makes sense.

PZ’s reputation as a reasonable scientist is definitely tarnished by the way he sets aside reason in exchange for chivalry…I really do think that men like him behave this way because of deep, evolutionary pressure to compete with other males for the favor of females.

Why did you ignore my response completely? Is it because I used gutter language? Or is it because I pointed out some uncomfortable thing with which you do not want to deal? I asked some question up at 355. Will you answer them? How would precautions have helped?

This section from post #289 Gen, Uppity Ingrate is why I think that the idea of ‘rape prevention behaviors’ should not be dismissed entirely, we just need to be clear about who engages in them besides rapists (hint, it’s not the victims) :

If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.

Clearly, behavior on the part of the victim is not a factor, but the behavior of non-rapists whom a rapist may perceive as peers/authorities (i.e: not their victims/people they see as potential victims) could, in fact, influence their likelihood of raping, and if those people were more willing to call rapists on their crimes, then more rapists would be incarcerated, and thus fewer of them would be free to rape, thus reducing the incidence of rape. Of course, assholes like howevermany999 and their ‘rape prevention is for the victims’ crap are doing the exact opposite of helping (I know that that’s been pointed out a lot, I just want to make it entirely clear that I am discussing something entirely different to what he’s blithering about.)

You know, when someone is killed in a car accident by a drunk driver, no one ever says “well, they should have stayed home that day” or “if only they had bought a safer car” or “if only sober drivers would take defensive driving classes, drunk driving accidents wouldn’t kill so many people.” We don’t say those things because we recognize that it doesn’t matter what the other driver did or didn’t do, the blame for the accident falls squarely on the shoulders of the person who was driving drunk.

So a big giant fuck you to anyone who wants to focus on rape prevention to distract from the responsibility of the rapist. You’re worse than someone who blames the victims of a drunk driver for getting into the accident.

I’m going to get ripped apart, I’m sure, but I think there is something to be said for telling people to not walk around alone at night, to always be aware of surroundings, etc. If something happens to them, it is in no way their fault, nor should they be blamed. Nevertheless, why not take precautions where we can? Yes, let’s attack the problem at its root as well: educate about the harmfulness of rape, punish rapists to the full extent of the law, empower women to report and fight back. But this will be a long battle, and until the perfect world is reached, there will remain danger.

But it would be silly to say that telling people not to wander around the bad parts of Detroit or New York, or to stay out of parts where the KKK is active, is blaming the victims. It’s sad, but crime does happen and it is more common in some places and at some times. It’s prevention of more people becoming victims, it’s not promoting crime/rape culture, as long as there is a simultaneous movement to attack the problem at the source.

Jogging with a large dog along is good for the dog and a quite effective personal safety measure.

Ladies and gentlemen, we find the defendant not guilty, given that the complainant chose to leave her large dog behind before she went out jogging.

Being branded a rapist is horrible. It’s so horrible that excuses are made for men who are too nice, good, prestigious to have such a yucky label hanging off them. Far easier to tell women to watch what they say, where they step, and stop being so fucking temptacious. Trouble is, it’s a total myth that a woman’s dress, location and manner results in some form of “tipping point” past which a man can no longer control himself. Also, the nice men aren’t really that nice; in fact they’re predators who know exactly what they’re doing and love how well-meaning people are so happy to cover for them.

Fuck that. If you think consent is optional, we think prison is mandatory. Nice be damned.

I was interested to see PZ say that Jenny and OnePlus were not one in the same as they did seem to have made exactly the same errors and also both seemed intent on carrying on regardless of them being pointed out repeatedly.

So I did google their handles – both seem to be real, very different people. Not sure if I’ll get banned talking about publicly available (Privacy policy?) info on them but if Jenny is a naturist it would explain her comments on nudity != sex. Also might make for a more interesting conversation if she’d share how being a naturist shapes her views on this subject.

Than again I see amaclean has stepped in to take the baton from Jenny anyway…

People are cautious in those situations anyway. For you to tell them they are logically responsible for their attack when they probably had to be there regardless is petty at best and harmful at worst. It is not on the victim to psychically control the criminal urges of the criminal.

I think there is something to be said for telling people to not walk around alone at night, to always be aware of surroundings, etc.

Will you go up and read my posts, again if you already have, please? You’re mouthing stupid platitudes with no attention to the actual facts of rape. Women should be on guard all the time because rape happens; we are; this doesn’t actually fix the problem; women are blamed for not being on guard enough because there’s no such thing. Can we move on from the question of women’s dark alley habits?

It’s quite funny how someone can be so rational in some areas but completely credulous when it comes to patriarchy “theory”.I really do think that men like him behave this way because of deep, evolutionary pressure to compete with other males for the favor of females.

What a lovely case of projection. I’m not competing for females at all — I’m deeply monogamous and committed to one woman, and have no sexual interest in any others. This isn’t the first time one of these oblivious dudes has claimed it’s unpossible that I’m not as possessive and lustful for all women in the most superficial way, like they are.

I think there is something to be said for telling people to not walk around alone at night, to always be aware of surroundings, etc.

shit, I’m here alone at work in a great big office building that’s empty but I had to do stuff. I guess I’ll need an escort to get to my car in the parking garage tonight in order to verify that I tried hard enough. Anyone care to come save me from myself? /sarcasm

It’s quite funny how someone can be so rational in some areas but completely credulous when it comes to patriarchy “theory”.
I really do think that men like him behave this way because of deep, evolutionary pressure to compete with other males for the favor of females.

It is stunningly ironic to see that piece of ridiculous evo-psych crap* that is the second sentence follow the first one.

High Plains Drifter? Although Clint did do that rape/revenge movie later, I’m not sure if he gets points for that or not. Pretty crappy either way.

I just found the clip on Youtube. (Well, a few minutes ago. I had to wait a few minutes before I could type this without swearing every other word.) There’s no way in hell I’m linking it though, it’s exactly as bad as you’re imagining, if not worse. It’s a collection of all the worst rape-is-okay tropes – ‘uppity bitch needs to be taught a lesson’, ‘rape as punishment’, ‘she secretly enjoys it the whole time’ – it’s nearly the entire rape culture in one scene. The part at the end is particularly nauseating, as the two stable hands (who witnessed the whole thing and did nothing) stare up at him in awe for his manly ability to rape a woman who was ‘asking for it’. I’m still shaking with how angry it made me, and I don’t think I’ll be watching anything else by Clint Eastwood ever again.

I wonder how many women out there have been raped because Clint Eastwood taught men that this behavior was supposed to be manly and appropriate and heroic. The fact that Eastwood also directed this film makes him completely culpable. What a shitbag.

Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform, if I may have the priveledge of adding on to your comments here

Rocci:

The 1 in 4 statistic is a well established lie.

Citation from trustworthy source needed.

A rape culture is one where rape is accepted, like Saudi Arabia where children can legally be married off.

That is not the definition of the term.

I think, almost as important, is that it is a sexist culture, that women are not equal on so many levels, that fosters rape as an expression of repression and degradation.
It is a snake with two heads, or more, and that it isn’t just rape that’s a single issue separate and on its own. It is an issue that has to, has to be addressed head on and directly, make no mistake about that.

There are so many political and religious attacks on women and their rights and status in society, and this we can all openly comment on and fight.

But, as a man, I cannot understand the constant and insidious threats, and implied objectification, that women have to deal with incessantly and for which there is no escape, or safety, from constant reminders from society and snide looks and remarks, or even subtle games and attitudes directed towards them.

Let me stop right now and explain that I no right or ability to understand what it’s like, or speak to how it is for women – I can never claim that! I can only listen, without judgement or interpretation, to the feelings and thought expressed by others in situations or positions that I cannot, as a white male, ever really understand.

I can., however, become as aware as possible, and as open as I can, to other perspectives as they are described, and most of all, I have to have the humility to admit that I can never tell anyone that what is going through their heads is right, or wrong, for someone in their situation to think and feel.

Certainly I can express my opinion on matters, but I must always be open to criticism and correction of my thoughts and behavior as well. It is hypocritical not to be, after so generously spewing my version of things to them.

My willfully responsibility, if I believe or accept the importance of equality and the right to feel and be safe for everyone – women in this case, is to stop condoning, or ignoring, the expression and behaviors between men that women aren’t present to witness or be subject to.

I must respond to the little comments like “she’s a fuckin’ tease” or “that bitch ….whatever…” or “typical woman” or “she needs to get laid” or “she’s on the rag” or “I’d like to bend her over the desk and just [do violent sex or acts]” and all that shit.

This is a major opportunity to change attitudes from the ground up, in situations that only we are aware of or present.

I used to think that because I live in a fucked up dangerous and violent neighborhood, that I understood what it is like to feel constantly under threat and have to be unwaveringly vigilant. But I may have a taste of what it’s like only, never the whole ‘meal’, and I am physically able to confront situations differently just by the fact that I’m male. I know how to relate to other men, and recognize danger signals and react to them on an equal footing to the thugs, because I can say shit like, “Hey bro, I’m just tryin’ to get by, just like you, I mean, c’mon dog/bro/man, blah blah…” and for what it’s worth, reach them on a level that is subconscious and ‘primitively male.’
I also don’t have to be bombarded by the surreptitious reminders that infest television and mass media when I am ‘safe’ inside somewhere. I, we, have escape, refuge, from all reminders, and there is absolutely no shortage of he-man fantasies and heroism for us to work ourselves up into frenzies of ultra-testosteroned dominance over weaklings.

So, unless you are willing to admit that you are not god’s gift to the universe, oneplus99, you better put the fuck up, or shut the fuck up, because around here, you are transparent. These people, collectively, have X-ray vision, maaaaaaaaaaan, and they smell deceit and pretension like a steamroller flattens an empty pop can in a zombie’s severed arm.

*Please, I do not mean to supersede any one else’s experience, opinion, or insight, nor speak for anyone but my personal viewpoint and take on matters. I express only my understanding, and welcome correction, from everyone.

**I started this reply at #239 3 or 4 hours ago, but nevertheless, even though all this has probably been explained by now, I am employing the ‘throwing good money after bad’ fallacy, and submitting anyways!

My neighbor leaves his doors unlocked and his alarm off. One night a rapist goes into his house and rapes his teenage daughter. He wakes up grabs his gun and shoots the rapist. Here in Texas he has the perfect right to shoot the intruder. When I mention that he probably should have locked his doors and turned on his alarm he says I’m contributing to rape culture and blaming the victims. Then he shoots me in the head. He shouldn’t have to take reasonable precautions for his safety because everyone SHOULD respect his rights.

You know I should be able to walk up to a gang leader and using my right to free speech tell him to fuck himself and his mother. When he puts a bullet in my forehead and my father tells my wife that I should have been more careful, she tells him he is blaming the victim and contributing to murder culture. After all I should be able to say whatever I want to whomever I want and not be shot in the head.

I think I should be able to walk around in any part of town at night alone waving cash and jewelry around. Anybody who suggests otherwise is contributing to mugging culture and blaming the victim.

If you people want to ignore reasonable safety measures go ahead. I hope Social Services removes your children from your care before you get them raped or murdered. After all protecting them and teaching them how to be safe would be contributing to rape and murder culture.

I wished I lived in a perfect world. As long as I don’t I’m going to take reasonable precautions and recommend the same to my family and loved ones and anyone else who I care about.

The blame of the perpetrator of a crime and the precautions people take to prevent becoming victims given that criminal actually exist, are COMPLETELY separate things. The fact that some people cannot separate them is simply irrational blindness.

I think there is something to be said for telling people to not walk around alone at night, to always be aware of surroundings, etc.

Yeah, it’s almost as fucking stupid as telling people they should wear a jacket, when it’s 20 deg. below zero, before they go out.

There’s something to be said about people that claim altruism by pointing out shite that we all knew already by the time we were 8 years old, too. And it is: “Next time I want to get to my kindergarten class, I’ll be sure to check with you first. Fuck face!”

millss999 is yet another poster who flat out refuses to actually read what other commenters have written.

Women do take precautions all the time. They still get raped by rapists. If the police or the courts or their friends and family do not think the precautions were adequate the rape becomes their fault and is often not investigated or prosecuted. This is what you are refusing to understand.

Oh I read the comments. Like this one from you where you demonstrated you couldn’t separate the two.

Ogvorbis: Ignorant sycophantic magpie.
15 June 2012 at 10:09 am
THAT SAID when I park my car in a sketchy parking lot, I hide my valuables so that I don’t get robbed.

Blaming the victim.

Even if you leave $1,000 in plain sight on your dashboard, someone else still has to make the decision to break the law and rob you. If a woman walks into a bar at 2:00am naked, someone else still has to make the decision to break the law and rape her.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I’m failing to see the relevance

The relevance is that you are, effectively, telling women (or men, or children) that it is their fault if they are raped. They made the mistake.

Your description triggered some memories from two decades ago :-)
The Wikipedia article gives the plot and is shortly describing the rape scene as I remember it: the would-be love interest purportedly bumped into the dark hero to catch his attention, and the Stranger cut to the chase (all of this annoying flirting), grabbed the woman and dragged her to the barn.
So, the sort of rape where “she was asking for it”.

This movie was done past the Sergio Leone trilogy and apparently they tried to do something in the same dark, realistic line; this movie is more film noir than western. Everybody is corrupt, gray morality all around, the town has to pay for some past crime, and basically out of his desire for revenge, the Stranger was just doing whatever he wanted.

Yeah, sounds horrible, put this way.

I think the moviemakers wanted a movie about the time where men were real men, women were real women, and little furry animals from alpha centaury…

@amaclueless:
A yes or no will suffice:
Does being unprepared for the rape make the rapist any less of a rapist?

And in your own words:
What’s the minimum amount of preparedness someone should have before it is no longer their fault for being raped?

Of course it doesn’t. Nowhere did I say that a woman (or man) should EVER be blamed for being raped. The fault is always with the rapist, and the heinousness of the crime is the same whether it takes place at 3am in the cliched dark alley or at noon in the middle of Disney World. What I am trying to say is that I think people should still take precautions. I’m a female teenager, and I make sure my friends always have a buddy if they’re out late going somewhere. My friends tell me not to go running at 10 pm in San Jose. If I did go running then, or had to walk back from the lab late at night, and did get raped, I would in no way blame myself, think I was asking for it, or feel the rapist were any less guilty or disgusting. All I’m saying is it doesn’t hurt to be cautious, and yes, I know plenty of rapes occur with people you know, and sometimes you have to be in dangerous places, you can’t live life in a bubble, etc. If people don’t take precautions, it doesn’t mean any crimes against them should be dismissed or that they are dumb or whatever it is you think I’m trying to say. But why not encourage people to be cautious, alert, and know how to protect themselves/fight back if necessary?

Also, yes, I believe if a person were attacked and someone attempted to rape them, that that person would be justified in hurting the rapist. If a woman has a handgun and she has no way of escaping without doing so, then I would support her use of deadly force.

A couple sexual assaults and armed robberies recently occurred near my university, and the school sent out advisories with reminders like “you can always call for a safety escort,” “know where the emergency buttons are,” “don’t go out alone,” “don’t leave bikes unlocked,” “consider carryng pepperspray,” etc. Are you saying they are blaming the victim here? I think they are just trying to protect people.

mills, either way, someone has to make the decision to break the law. It is not the fault of the person who left the money on the dashboard that they were robbed. It is not the fault of the woman that she was raped — someone had to actually make the decision to rape her. Implying that she could have/should have done something differently tells the victim that she is at fault, that, because she did not wear the right clothes, or have the right chaperone, or stay sober, that she is to blame for being raped.

Which is exactly what I wrote about in the comment you quoted. Different words, same thing.

“mills, either way, someone has to make the decision to break the law. It is not the fault of the person who left the money on the dashboard that they were robbed. It is not the fault of the woman that she was raped — someone had to actually make the decision to rape her.”

Absolutely agree. You will find absolutely nothing in my comment to claim otherwise The blame of the perpetrator is not changed.

Telling people that should act differently is not blame. It’s common sense safey. If my daughter walks around in dangerous areas at night alone and is assaulted, am I allowed to suggest she behave differently in the future? By doing so am I contributing to rape culture?

Absolutely not. If I do so to a friend am I contributing to rape culture? Absolutely not. If I do so to someone who told me a story exactly like my daughter? Absolutely not.

The precautions and the blame of the criminal and the non-blame of the victim are separate. It entirely clear in these comments that many people are not separating them.

Can we take precautions and recommend precautions to others? Before and After crimes? Or is doing so contributing to crime culture? Or is it simple common sense. The two can be separated but many people here are failing to do so.

It’s really simple.

I’m not saying people don’t blame the victim when they make some statements like this. It’s all about how it is done. However to simply declare that doing so is blaming the victim is in my opinion unadulterated and indefensible nonsense.

A couple sexual assaults and armed robberies recently occurred near my university, and the school sent out advisories with reminders like “you can always call for a safety escort,” “know where the emergency buttons are,” “don’t go out alone,” “don’t leave bikes unlocked,” “consider carryng pepperspray,” etc. Are you saying they are blaming the victim here? I think they are just trying to protect people.

Yes, they are blaming the victim. They are essentially saying “do this or it’s your own fault for not being careful enough”. If something happens to you, you will be asked about everything you just listed as a precaution. Your answers will be judged and your degree of victimness will be based on your answers.

A woman is assaulted walking down and alley late at night, and you subsequently tell her “In the future, you really shouldn’t walk down dark alleys late at night.” How is this not implying that the victim is at least in part to blame? What you’re in essence saying to her is ‘if you hadn’t walked down that alley, you would not have been assaulted.’

If my daughter walks around in dangerous areas at night alone and is assaulted, am I allowed to suggest she behave differently in the future? By doing so am I contributing to rape culture?

Yes. and I hope she smacks the shit out of you for blaming her for walking wherever the hell she wanted to. It’s the person doing the assaulting causing the problem, not your daughter walking around in a dangerous area.

The subtle but inevitable implication to all this “women must take precautions” is, of course, that men aren’t human. They are animals. Unintelligible forces of nature. Raw pure masses of lust and violence. Their behaviour cannot be changed. You cannot reason with them. You cannot deter them. You cannot appeal to them.

You (the woman), and you alone, the onus only on you, must protect yourself, just as you would protect yourself from a mountain lion, or a zombie, or a tornado.

Because men aren’t human, and you can’t expect them to act like humans, so you shouldn’t bother trying.

oneplus999, how is hiding your valuables and locking your doors at all comparable to not going out at night? What are you sacrificing by hiding your valuables and locking your doors? 30 seconds of your time? When you tell women they should stay at home or dress a certain way or always have someone with them or whatever you think women are supposed to do to protect themselves, you’re asking them to make a lot of sacrifices. Do people who make these ridiculous “lock your doors” analogies ever even consider that?

Telling people that should act differently is not blame. It’s common sense safey. If my daughter walks around in dangerous areas at night alone and is assaulted, am I allowed to suggest she behave differently in the future? By doing so am I contributing to rape culture?

I certainly hope that never happens to your daughter. When people respond to my rapes in that way, by trying to figure out what I could do better next time, it does harm to me. What do you think we’re going to do? Do you seriously think that “Oh, if I hadn’t done that thing wrong I wouldn’t have been raped” to “It is my fault for doing that thing wrong” is a jump? In this world, where “she was wearing a skirt” is enough to make everyone assume consent? We are continuously taught to blame ourselves.

And amaclean, sorry, but no. If you haven’t been raped, you have no fucking idea what you’d do or think if you were raped. What you’re doing right now looks from my perspective a hell of a lot like “I’d just fight back!” That kind of violation does things to the way you view yourself.

Improbable Joe, I think I remember that gun conversation and – if it’s the one I think it is – I remember thinking at the time that there was no way you were ever going to budge. The urge to double down is a very strong one for so many reasons (I mean, me too and all). I really hope that this doesn’t come off as condescending (the road to bad posts is paved with good intentions which are not magic), but I just wanted to say a) kudos for not only NOT hermetically sealing your brain against being criticised but ACTUALLY getting it instead (and the whole point of how it relates to the present thread), and b) this is also one more example among many of why these conversations are totally worth it even when they might seem like people are pushing Sisyphus’ boulder up the mountain.

I fucking love the Pharyngulites. For keeping this a safe space, for never taking any shit, for never allowing victim-blaming to go unchallenged.

And adamgordon just failed to separate the two. And she calls me “dense”.

Sweet Jeebus mills, you’re dense.

“A woman is assaulted walking down and alley late at night, and you subsequently tell her “In the future, you really shouldn’t walk down dark alleys late at night.” How is this not implying that the victim is at least in part to blame? What you’re in essence saying to her is ‘if you hadn’t walked down that alley, you would not have been assaulted.’

It is possible to take precautions for some things.
-pack your own parachute
-make sure your gas-tank is full before a long trip
-take plenty of water for your desert hike
–
–
You really can’t prepare for what someone else might do, the list is too large.

Yes, they are blaming the victim. They are essentially saying “do this or it’s your own fault for not being careful enough”. If something happens to you, you will be asked about everything you just listed as a precaution. Your answers will be judged and your degree of victimness will be based on your answers.

So are you saying then that you would encourage friends to get wasted and wander around in the inner city naked, in the middle of the night, waving around expensive phones and jewelry? Would discouraging that be blaming the victim?

What about a drunk man who is going to go driving around? Assuming he were only a danger to himself, is it insulting his intelligence and creating a “blame the victim” mentality if you tell him not to do so and take his keys from him?

What if it were your 12 year old daughter asking to go to a party in the next neigborhood over? Would it be wrong to insist that you pick her up (since it goes late at night) instead of letting her walk home alone?

I certainly hope that never happens to your daughter. When people respond to my rapes in that way, by trying to figure out what I could do better next time, it does harm to me. What do you think we’re going to do? Do you seriously think that “Oh, if I hadn’t done that thing wrong I wouldn’t have been raped” to “It is my fault for doing that thing wrong” is a jump? In this world, where “she was wearing a skirt” is enough to make everyone assume consent? We are continuously taught to blame ourselves.

And amaclean, sorry, but no. If you haven’t been raped, you have no fucking idea what you’d do or think if you were raped. What you’re doing right now looks from my perspective a hell of a lot like “I’d just fight back!” That kind of violation does things to the way you view yourself.

No need to get nasty. I’m sorry that you’ve had such horrible experiences, and in no way should you EVER be blamed for them. I’m not saying I’d fight back in the situation, because I don’t know how I’d act. Maybe I’d pass out from fear, I don’t know. I am NOT saying we should ever blame the victim, and I agree that it is wrong to say “well, if you weren’t wearing such skimpy clothing, then maybe it wouldn’t have happened.” It’s very wrong and hurtful. But I’m talking about something different. I’m talking about saying as a precaution, don’t walk around alone at night drunk. I’d say that to men too. A lot of bad things can happen when you’re alone and don’t have your wits about you. I would say it because I care about their safety, not because I’m judging them. If they chose to do so anyways and got hurt, I would not blame them, I would try to comfort them and hope to see the criminal who committed the act brought to justice.

OK, let’s say my 6 year old goes to school everyday and leaves his lunch money on his desk in plain view. After he comes in from recess his money is gone – every day. Every day he comes home and cries because he lost his lunch money. I have been trying to prevent blaming him so I haven’t suggested he keep it hidden. However finally in order to prevent this from happening in the future I tell him to keep his money hidden in his pocket or wherever.

By doing so I’m I contributing to “lunch money stealing culture”. I am saying he is at fault? Am I saying that the person who stole it is not 100% at fault?

No I’m not saying any of that. Because there are two separate issues here. One issue is the blame of the crime which falls on the criminal. My son is not to blame for there being money stealers at school. It’s not his fault it was stolen. However by leaving it in plain sight he is increasing the likelihood it will be taken.

My suggesting he change his behavior I’m accepting the fact that the world is not as we wish it to be. It’s about protecting yourself and your property from people who don’t follow the rules.

That is a completely separate issue from blame and it is not me who is dense for failing to separate them.

EXACTLY the same principle applies to any other crime and behaviors you might take to lessen the likelihood they will happen to you.

Fuck you. You’re the one who came in here dispensing condescending fucking advice and claiming that it has something to do with rape prevention in the middle of a thread in which numerous people have explained precisely why that isn’t useful to do. And I’m “nasty” for telling you you don’t get to use your imaginary reaction to hypothetical trauma to tell people who have actually experienced it how they ought to react.

But I’m talking about something different. I’m talking about saying as a precaution, don’t walk around alone at night drunk.

I’m wondering why you didn’t read my posts on the subject of how that’s not useful rape prevention advice.

I’m talking about saying as a precaution, don’t walk around alone at night drunk

amaclean, I get what you’re trying to say. Here’s the problem though, and something for you to consider: why is this an appropriate response in a discussion about rape culture? Why is it that attention is diverted to the victim’s behavior when this topic is introduced? Note that it took exactly 7 comments on this thread.

Cipher, I have expressed that I DO NOT KNOW how I would react if I were raped. And it would be no reflection on me (or anyone else’s character) whether they fought back, or did nothing, or whatever — the rapist is to blame there completely. I give up. Mills, I support what you’re trying to say. I’ve always enjoyed reading Pharyngula but have never really been on the “opposite” side of majority opinion here, but man, you guys are just as brutal and petty as the trolls on here. I was just expressing what I thought was a very reasonable, feminist opinion. I am a woman, I love women, I support women having full equality in every sense of the word. I am very anti-rape, and very anti-blame the victim. And I’m pro-choice, pro- gay marriage, etc. etc. So I don’t get why I received the response that I did.

Do you all really mean to tell me that you would NOT warn a daughter, son, or friend not to meander through the ghetto in the middle of the night?

My neighbor leaves his doors unlocked and his alarm off. One night a rapist goes into his house and rapes his teenage daughter. He wakes up grabs his gun and shoots the rapist. Here in Texas he has the perfect right to shoot the intruder. When I mention that he probably should have locked his doors and turned on his alarm he says I’m contributing to rape culture and blaming the victims. Then he shoots me in the head. He shouldn’t have to take reasonable precautions for his safety because everyone SHOULD respect his rights.

Everyone should, indeed, respect his rights. I agree with you 100%. That’s why it is illegal to go into someone’s place and fuck with the inhabitants and the property.Right away, let me express the knowledge that this is fucking red herring expedition, but it’s fun shooting fish in a barrel!
And there is a certain amount of responsibility for your fuckwad neighbor to take precautions, because it is his problem when someone doesn’t respect his rights. It is fucking insane to ignore the reality that your neighbor is putting himself st risk, and he is showing that he is a demented fuckwit for playing such childish and dangerous games.
He is also criminally liable for failure to take reasonable measures to protect her daughter, and will likely be convicted of endangering a child in her care, and possibly be convicted for negligent homicide if the case can be shown that it is a reasonably possibility that your house/home will be entered if unlocked, in that neighborhood.
(May I warn you that I am a gun control zealot, and it’s because I would shoot your neighbor in the head if I had a gun.)
I implore you, agent 99, to move away from that neighbor as quickly as possible. That person is dangerously irrational, but, but, butwait! You said Texas, right? Nevermind.

You know I should be able to walk up to a gang leader and using my right to free speech tell him to fuck himself and his mother. When he puts a bullet in my forehead and my father tells my wife that I should have been more careful, she tells him he is blaming the victim and contributing to murder culture. After all I should be able to say whatever I want to whomever I want and not be shot in the head.

WRONG! He should reasonably expect to be able to walk around without verbal harassment, and therefor, he is the initial victim. He does, however, have the right to either just ignore you for being obviously unlikely to see your next birthday, and take pity on you, or phone the police, or warn you that he will deploy protective measures if you don’t get the fuck out of his face.
This is your second example that is non applicatory as an analogy to the ‘blame the victim’ mentality. Maybe you should go have a love-in with Ted Nugent instead of trying to sound intelligent on this thread. So far, you are textbook NRA talking points.

I think I should be able to walk around in any part of town at night alone waving cash and jewelry around. Anybody who suggests otherwise is contributing to mugging culture and blaming the victim.

You should be able to do that! Your second sentence there is a non-sequitur. I think you should be able to do that to, but I also know that you are insipidly delusional if you expect to be able to do that.
But, and I do add “But,” anyone that takes your money and jewelry will in fact be liable for charges and punishment, by law. However, factors such as him/her fleeing may indicate culpability, yet by your waving your riches around like a congenital dipstick may be construed as consent, or at least enticement, and this will be taken into consideration when sentencing is rendered and you are involuntarily committed for your own protection.

The rest of your post is egregiously illogical, and you really should read up on valid premise and valid conclusion definition and usage. You are so fucking easily refuted that I am now getting bored, and if you want to read my novel explaining the improper analogy fallacy, go search for my response to rajkumar and his ‘green – god presence’ befuddlement.

As a personal plea to you for your own reputation’s safety, I wish to apprise you of my continued concern regarding your vulnerability to reason and common sense. I desperately implore you to put on a jacket, and to please, please, puh-leeeeeeeeze update your primary schooling to post Machiavellian humanism, lest you be humiliated relentlessly, much to my chagrin, and pleasure. Please, you are going to be blamed for not exercising due cautionary diligence when attempting to saunter down the scintillating brightness of teh neighborhood zombie aisle undetected.

I was interested to see PZ say that Jenny and OnePlus were not one in the same as they did seem to have made exactly the same errors and also both seemed intent on carrying on regardless of them being pointed out repeatedly.

So I did google their handles – both seem to be real, very different people. Not sure if I’ll get banned talking about publicly available (Privacy policy?) info on them but if Jenny is a naturist it would explain her comments on nudity != sex. Also might make for a more interesting conversation if she’d share how being a naturist shapes her views on this subject.

Than again I see amaclean has stepped in to take the baton from Jenny anyway…

As a nudist/naturist I do occasionally push back against textile attitudes.

I don’t think over 25 years of nudism/naturism is in any way responsible for my view that it’s wise to look out for one’s own safety.

Yes, yes, yes, one shouldn’t need to protect oneself from criminals, but criminals do exist. So, since they do, I take some reasonable precautions and am not shy about advising others to do so as well.

Maybe the trick is that I also learned that it was OK to lose an argument. Not at the time, but eventually I figured out that when I’m stepping into a feminist discussion I’m not an expert on the feminism aspect of the conversation and I’m not as emotionally invested as other people. So I am learning to accept that if I’m trying to play expert where I shouldn’t, I’m earning a harsh response that shouldn’t make my brain shut down and refuse to process the points being made just because they come at me more strongly than I would like. Sally and Daisy and others likely made good points that I stupidly refused to listen to because a) they were rude to me and b) I was so convinced that being right in my narrow perspective made me immune to valid criticism about my place in the bigger picture.

Plus, as I mentioned earlier I have my own deep emotional issues regarding my gun ownership that can make it hard for me to be rational… I HATE feeling like I have to be armed to feel safe, and I didn’t feel that way before I moved here. It kills me that my wife asks me to “strap on” when she wants to smoke a cigarette outside after dark, or when the dog needs to be walked at night. And it is unfair to say that I’m doing the right thing and ignore the fact that I shouldn’t have to fucking do anything, and that my wife should feel safe on our well-lit front porch let alone walking on the sidewalk or in the back yard.

Everyone already takes them to the best of their ability and to the extent that their consequences allow.

But there is NO dress style that reliably decreases the likelihood of rape or sexual assault.

And sometimes it is necessary for one to venture out alone late at night.

You think women in general just do these sorts of risky things for fun? On a lark? Because of some inexplicable hormonal urge?

Try using a little empathy here and think back to the last time something bad happened to you that might have been preventable with some foresight. Say the last time you ran out of gas on the highway, or embarrassed yourself by drinking too much, or had your bike stolen because you didn’t lock it up properly? Or dropped a cinderblock on your non-steel-toed boot?

Do you remember the regret? The self-incrimination? The “why was I so stupid, why did I not think of doing that?”

Now compound that a thousand fold.

Do you SERIOUSLY not think that every woman who is raped ISN’T THINKING THIS ALL THE TIME ALREADY?

And is devastastated, tormented by it?

She doesn’t NEED people like you to keep repeating the obvious that she is already torturing herself about.

It DOES NOT NEED to be said. It DOES NOT HELP to say it. It SHOULD NOT BE SAID.

If you don’t believe precautions decrease the likelihood, then by all means please do not ever teach any precautions to your own children. Please encourage them to take the riskiest behavior they want. After all it make no difference.

As I said before. I hope social services remove your children from your care.

I believe most people here believe precautions matter and most posters in fact said they take them. They just don’t like to be told to do so.

I understand your desire for me to stop demonstrating the complete bankruptcy of your position which result in you only being able to scream insults in response. I decline to accept your demand.

Do you understand how pathetic this makes you look? I can’t imagine you do; if you had even a sliver of self-awareness, the humiliation of being you would probably make you want to curl up in a hole and die.

I didn’t say this. All I asked was for you to provide some evidence about the effectiveness of taking such precautions, specifically what the decrease in relative risk for assault is for any such precaution.

millssg99 says:
15 June 2012 at 6:36 pm
My neighbor leaves his doors unlocked and his alarm off. One night a rapist goes into his house and rapes his teenage daughter. He wakes up grabs his gun and shoots the rapist. Here in Texas he has the perfect right to shoot the intruder. When I mention that he probably should have locked his doors and turned on his alarm he says I’m contributing to rape culture and blaming the victims. Then he shoots me in the head. He shouldn’t have to take reasonable precautions for his safety because everyone SHOULD respect his rights.

You know I should be able to walk up to a gang leader and using my right to free speech tell him to fuck himself and his mother. When he puts a bullet in my forehead and my father tells my wife that I should have been more careful, she tells him he is blaming the victim and contributing to murder culture. After all I should be able to say whatever I want to whomever I want and not be shot in the head.

I think I should be able to walk around in any part of town at night alone waving cash and jewelry around. Anybody who suggests otherwise is contributing to mugging culture and blaming the victim.

If you people want to ignore reasonable safety measures go ahead. I hope Social Services removes your children from your care before you get them raped or murdered. After all protecting them and teaching them how to be safe would be contributing to rape and murder culture.

I wished I lived in a perfect world. As long as I don’t I’m going to take reasonable precautions and recommend the same to my family and loved ones and anyone else who I care about.

The blame of the perpetrator of a crime and the precautions people take to prevent becoming victims given that criminal actually exist, are COMPLETELY separate things. The fact that some people cannot separate them is simply irrational blindness.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah!!! Right on!

But, be warned, the gang here will figure some way to punish you for refusing to parrott the groupthink of the moment.

I’m talking about saying as a precaution, don’t walk around alone at night drunk

amaclean, I get what you’re trying to say. Here’s the problem though, and something for you to consider: why is this an appropriate response in a discussion about rape culture? Why is it that attention is diverted to the victim’s behavior when this topic is introduced? Note that it took exactly 7 comments on this thread.

Thanks for listening to what I’m trying to say and not attacking me. :) It’s not an appropriate response to start listing off what a rape victim should have done to avoid rape. I stepped in because I felt that some of the earlier posters were being treated very harshly, and that I didn’t think their position was so radical and immoral as to deserve that kind of response. If people show the person the error of their ways, in a kind, gentle, and scientifically convincing way, then that person may change their mind. It’s kind of like if someone said “maybe there was more to the pepperspraying incident than what was initially portrayed in the media” and someone said they were an evil fucking moron. Maybe the police who peppersprayed were assholes, but we don’t know for sure and there is the possibility that there was some actual cause. Not my best analogy, but I’m not used to being so harshly received as this.

Also, I wholeheartedly support telling sons often to always make sure they have consent.

If you don’t believe precautions decrease the likelihood, then by all means please do not ever teach any precautions to your own children. Please encourage them to take the riskiest behavior they want. After all it make no difference.

If you weren’t such a fuckhead dumbshit, then you’d know that most rape victims are raped by people they know. How does a woman protect herself from her date, her boyfriend, her ex-husband, her present husband? Do you have a smarmy answer to that, shit for brains?

If you don’t believe precautions decrease the likelihood, then by all means please do not ever teach any precautions to your own children. Please encourage them to take the riskiest behavior they want. After all it make no difference.

I am pretty certain that staying in my room alone with the door locked, which I do, decreases the likelihood of my being raped. Do you think everyone should teach their children to stay in their rooms with their doors locked? Why or why not?

Me and several other people have raised legitimate[fuckwitted, ignorant, and trollworthy] concerns.

Fixed that for you loser. You had no point. You had no valid concerns. You had nothing but your fuckwitted OPINION, which without evidence, can be *POOF* dismissed without evidence. Just as PZ dismissed your idiocy…

No you are not, because I believe reasonable precautions matter, and you certainly DON’T speak for me.

I need not demonstrate what people already accept.

You must demonstrate that it is indeed what people “already accept”.

Do you believe they decrease the likelihood or not?

Depends on the precaution.

For example:

Wearing a certain type of clothing (or avoiding wearing a certain type of clothing)? No. (Need I remind you that every single piece of clothing imaginable in the history of humanity has already been sexualized in some context or another?)

Not walking alone in dangerous places at night? Maybe. But it is NOT REASONABLE TO DEMAND THIS, since this is a part of normal living that many people cannot avoid.

Assiduously avoiding going to parties and getting drunk at them? Yes, but NOT REASONABLE TO DEMAND THIS, unless you believe in prohibition.

millssg99 says:
15 June 2012 at 7:27 pm
OK, let’s say my 6 year old goes to school everyday and leaves his lunch money on his desk in plain view. After he comes in from recess his money is gone – every day. Every day he comes home and cries because he lost his lunch money. I have been trying to prevent blaming him so I haven’t suggested he keep it hidden. However finally in order to prevent this from happening in the future I tell him to keep his money hidden in his pocket or wherever.

By doing so I’m I contributing to “lunch money stealing culture”. I am saying he is at fault? Am I saying that the person who stole it is not 100% at fault?

No I’m not saying any of that. Because there are two separate issues here. One issue is the blame of the crime which falls on the criminal. My son is not to blame for there being money stealers at school. It’s not his fault it was stolen. However by leaving it in plain sight he is increasing the likelihood it will be taken.

My suggesting he change his behavior I’m accepting the fact that the world is not as we wish it to be. It’s about protecting yourself and your property from people who don’t follow the rules.

That is a completely separate issue from blame and it is not me who is dense for failing to separate them.

EXACTLY the same principle applies to any other crime and behaviors you might take to lessen the likelihood they will happen to you.

That’s not what I said. I said I don’t care about the people who don’t accept it and so far nobody has said they don’t. Not even you.

If I believe in God and those I am talking to believe in God I don’t to demonstrate God exists. I would only need to do that to people who disagree and only if I cared to debate the issue with them.

I don’t believe most people here believe precautions don’t matter, even you didn’t say you don’t, Thus I don’t need to demonstrate they do to people who already accept it. To those who don’t I don’t care. They aren’t worth it. I’m talking to those who accept it.

If you don’t realize that women already take way more precautions than you can even dream of*, then you’re a fool. If you think we’re not doing enough to “protect ourselves”, you’re a fucking jackass victim blamer.

*When was the last time you walked down a street with your keys in your fist?

“Carrying a weapon is a personal choice that each individual must make on their own, both Caldas and Pruitt said.

Caldas pointed out that if the attacker gets ahold of the weapon, the victim could be in an even worse situation than before. Proper training in whatever type of weapon a person is carrying is a must.

Pruitt said people should also keep in mind that common items, such as keys or hair spray, can be used as weapons.

Alliance Against Family Violence and Sexual Assault counselor Carolyn Corbett said women also need to be aware of their surroundings when they’re in bars or other places where alcohol is served. Women should never leave their drinks alone or accept drinks from strangers because someone might drug them.”

I can’t find any statistics in my 30 seconds of Googling that show that precautions reduce rape, but here’s something to combat the idea that most advice given is common sense and assumes stupidity on the part of the recipient. I wouldn’t think of using hairspray as weapon, now I’ll remember that. Some people think they’re invincible with a gun; here’s a reminder that a gun can be turned on you. I’ve been to parties where I leave my drink unattended because I’m trusting of my fellow university students; however it isn’t a bad idea to be a little less trusting and more on the cautious side… As many have said here, rapists are often the people you know or that you would not expect.

I was raped, repeatedly, at the age of 10 by my cub scout leader. Please tell me what I did wrong. What precautions should I have taken? Should I not have worn shorts? Maybe I shouldn’t have taken off my shirt on a warm day? Maybe my buzz cut was too much for him? I spent thirty years knowing what happened was my fault. I know now that it was not. So please, tell me, what sensible precautions should I, and my fellow scouts, have taken which would have prevented the rapes. What are they?