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Alignment: Elemental Slayers aren't like the standard "Slayer" or the "Battle Dancer" they do not lean towards any particular alignment in general. Hit Die: 1d10Starting Age: As RogueStarting Wealth: As Monk

Slayers are not proficient with any shields, but are proficient with light armor.

When wearing heavier then light armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a Slayer loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
An Elemental Slayer who wears Medium armor made to count as light still retains features. Should the Slayer gain Proficiency in Heavy armors, she can instead benefit normally from medium armor, meanwhile Heavy armor still restricts class features.

AC Bonus (Ex)

When in light armor and unencumbered, the Slayer gains the listed bonus to her AC, they don't however get Cha to AC like the CORE Slayer, instead they get Cha to they're Saves similar to a Paladin.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the Slayer is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor greater then light, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

When in light armor or less, or otherwise unencumbered, a Slayer may strike with a flurry of blows with her fists or select Slayer weapons. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, catch is the restriction. Only select Slayer weapons can be used with a Flurry of Blows, including (But not limited to) Unarmed, the Shuriken, or the Sai. A Slayer must has two Flurries. One is usable as a Standard Action, the other as a Full Attack action, differences displayed on Table 1: The Elemental Slayer.

When using flurry of blows, a Slayer may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special Slayer weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special Slayer weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a Slayer applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The Slayer can’t use any weapon other than a special Slayer weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a Slayer may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.Greater Flurry

When a Slayer reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus.Greatest Flurry

When a Slayer reaches 10th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to two standard extra attacks she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a third extra attack at her full base attack bonus.

Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, a Slayer gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A Slayer’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a Slayer may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a Slayer striking unarmed. A Slayer may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a Slayer’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A Slayer’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A Slayer also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown in the table. The unarmed damage given in the table is for Medium or smaller Slayers. A Small or smaller Slayer does not deal less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large Slayer still deals more damage this is due to the nature of how the Slayer goes about channeling inner power to deliver the blow, as such they are never penalized for small size on the unarmed damage (However, they're likely to have poor STR scores). In addition, the Slayer uses Charisma in place of wisdom for Slayer feats, or feats based off Stunning Fist.

Speed Boost (Ex):

Personal mastery and refinement of self lead to a purer, clean, smooth and most of all faster step. The table lists the Total boost to speed, which is untyped.

Bonus Feats:

At first level, then again at second, sixth, and fourteenth levels, the Slayer gets a bonus feat taken from Fighter bonus feats or any feat mentioning Monk effects but may not be a fighter bonus feat. Meaning if Stunning Fist was not a Fighter Bonus feat, you could still obtain it.
You may take Slayer-specific feats regardless of BAB prerequisites. Monk Specific feats means any feat that has a special feature for a Monk.
In addition, to all Slayer-specific or Stunning fist related feats you replace Wis with Cha, and gains stunning fist uses equal to Twice they're class levels (rather then once, making it a more valid ability)
If Exalted feats are allowed in the game, a Slayer can take them for her bonus feats as well.

Road to Perfection (Ex)

Choose four abilities, at first level and every five levels thereafter (1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th, and so on) the Slayer gains a +2 untyped bonus to the lowest of these four scores. If there is a tie, the Slayer chooses one. Alternatively, the Slayer can instead to give a +1 to two of the lowest scores instead of +2 to one.

Courageous Example (Ex)

A Slayer of 3rd level or higher gains immunity to fear and gets the Slippery Mind feature of similar to a rogue, allowing them to make a second save against a failed will save one round later at the same DC as the original effect.
In addition, a Slayer with 5 ranks in Tumble gains the ability to inspire bravery in her allies. All of the Slayer's allies within 30ft of her gain a +4 bonus on saves against fear effects for a number of rounds equal to 5 + the Slayers charisma modifier. The Slayer can only use this ability, as a movement equivalent action, when she is within an opponents threatened area.

Stunning Recovery (Su):

At level 4, a Slayer can regenerate one stunning fist use every five rounds, or 30 seconds. She also gains Fast Healing 1, which doesn't stack with that gained later from Wholeness of Body as this is a lesser version of it.
Stunning Recovery lv 14: At level fourteen, this increases to regenerate one every two round.

Ki Strike (Su)

At 4th level, a Slayer’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic +1 weapons including when dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s Slayer level.
At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as one of her alignments for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction (choose one, such as lawful or good for a lawful good Slayer) as well as being treated as a +2 weapon.
At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness as well as being treated as a +4 weapon and being aligned.
Note: This bonus is an actual +x, and adds its benefit accordingly to attack and damage rolls.

Slow Fall (Ex)

At 1th level and higher, a Slayer can slow her descent by focusing her ki to balance herself against the very air. When first using this ability, she takes damage as if the fall were 10 feet shorter than it actually is. The Slayer’s ability to slow her fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall) improves with her Slayer level until at 20th level she can slow her fall by any amount, even coming to a stand still at any point along the fall (she cannot however, move up, just move back down by releasing control)

Purity of Body (Ex)

At 5th level, a Slayer gains immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases. She regenerates ability damage five times as fast, and can recover one point of ability drain per week.

Dodging Maneuver (Ex):

A 5th-level Slayer with 8 ranks in Tumble gains the ability to dodge her opponent's attacks with ease and finesse. She can use the Tumble skill to move at her normal speed without penalty, she can Tumble a distance up to her current speed.

Wholeness of Body (Ex)

At 7th level or higher, a Slayer gains fast healing 5 which stacks with other sources of fast healing as this is more of an amplification of natural healing rather then development of a new ability, as such if the Slayer already has, or again develops natural healing this amplification would carry through to stack.
The Elemental Slayer can forgo they're own healing to pass it on to another as long as she remains in contact with them by a touch. Each round the Slayer maintains this ki-healing she takes 5 points of nonlethal damage while the recipient gains 5 points of health back. Initiating this transfer costs a Stunning Fist use, should the connection break (By letting go, or getting separated) It costs another Stunning Fist to restart.

Weightless Step (Ex):

At level eight the Slayer moves with such grace, balance, and speed that she can run across the surface of liquid, such as water or magma, without taking damage or sinking below the surface. If she ends her movement on such a liquid, she takes damage and sinks as normal. The Slayer must being her movement on a stable, firm surface and have at least 11 ranks in Tumble.

Improved Evasion (Ex)

At 9th level, a Slayer’s evasion ability improves. She still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Slayer does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Tigers Assault (Ex):

A ninth level Slayer with 14 ranks in Tumble can assault her opponent with the ferocity of a tiger. When charging, may make a full attack rather then a standard attack as part of her charge, including use her flurry of blows.

Diamond Body (Su)

At 11th level, a Slayer gains immunity to poisons of all kinds, and is also immune to magical diseases or otherwise unnatural sicknesses. She also gains DR 5/magic, and natural armor bonus of 5.

Abundant Step (Su)

At 12th level or higher, a Slayer can slip magically between spaces. Usable 1/2 her charisma modifier times, and recoverable with but a 5minute rest, the Elemental Slayer can teleport to any empty spot within 400 ft. + 40 ft./level.

Diamond Soul (Ex)

At 13th level, a Slayer gains spell resistance equal to her current Slayer level + 11. In order to affect the Slayer with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the Slayer’s spell resistance. She becomes immune to soul based effects, such as trap soul or magic jar. She can suppress or reactivate this resistance at will as a free action.

Thousand Fists (Su):

The Slayer's speed and mighty unarmed strikes combine to make her a fearsome opponent. She can step into an opponent's reach and confuse it with a series of feints and her flurry of blows, distracting it from other threats and capturing they're attention. A 14th-level Slayer with 17 ranks in Tumble can rain a series of false blows upon a foe hidden in with her Flurry of Blows attack. She must use the Tumble skill to enter her opponent's space without provoking an attack of opportunity. If she succeeds, she may then attack her opponent while in its space with her flurry. If at least one attack hits, her opponent takes a -5 penalty to AC and it cannot make attacks of opportunity until the start of the Slayer's next action. After the Slayer completes her attack, she enters a square of her choice adjacent to the target. Using Thousand Fists is a full attack action.

Quivering Palm (Su)

Starting at 15th level, a Slayer can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the Slayer so desires. She can use this quivering palm attack once a day equal to the Slayers charisma modifier or by spending five stunning fist uses, and she must announce her intent before making her attack roll. Incorporeal creatures cannot be affected. Otherwise, if the Slayer strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the quivering palm attack succeeds. Thereafter the Slayer can try to slay the victim at any later time, as long as the attempt is made within a number of days equal to her Slayer level. To make such an attempt, the Slayer merely wills the target to die (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the Slayer’s level + the Slayer’s cha modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular quivering palm attack, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time. Constructs, Plants, Oozes, and undead do not die instantly, they instead take 1d12 points of damage for every two Slayer levels.

Spirit of Wind (Su):

A 16th-level Slayer with 19 ranks in Tumble gains a fly speed equal to twice her base land speed with perfect maneuverability. If a flying Slayer charges an opponent below her, she gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 bonus on damage in place of the normal benefits of charging. She may use her Tiger's Assault in conjunction with an aerial charge. She can maintain this flight only in fleeting moments, she must end the movement on some solid surface or fall, but she can gather enough Ki to push herself again in mid air, not needing to start the movement on a solid surface.
Redundant, but available none the less, the Slayer can now perform a Jump check any time in the middle of another jump check for a double jump. Essentially, use the first jump check to determine first height, then add the height from the second jump check to the total height reached.

Timeless Body (Ex)

Upon attaining 17th level, a Slayer no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Unfortunately, she does not naturally gain benefits either. She needs not fear death by old age.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)

A Slayer of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature, gains the See in Dark ability as a devil.

Empty Body (Su)

At 19th level, a Slayer gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per Slayer level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her Slayer level.

Perfect Self

At 20th level, a Slayer becomes a magical creature. She is treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the Slayer’s creature type was) when ever it will be beneficial to her.
Additionally, the Slayer gains damage reduction 10/epic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by an attack with less then an epic bonus. Unlike other outsiders, the Slayer can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

Forbidden Sequence (Su):

A 20th-level Slayer with 23 ranks in Tumble can perform a vicious, deadly sequence of maneuvers around her opponent. Before using this sequence, the Slayers selects a single target within 30 feet. As a standard action, the Slayer performs an elaborate sequence of precise forms that requires a DC 35 Tumble check to complete. If she succeeds, any time she makes a successful attack against her designated target she deals +5d6 points of damage, +5 to attack, +5 to her own dodge AC against said target. and In addition, any critical threat the Slayer makes against her designated target is automatically confirmed as a critical hit even as her threat range doubles.

Stunning Fist

The Slayer gains Stunning Fist for free at first level. Stunning fist is changed to provide 10 + Slayer level = uses per day + bonus uses per day if you have a high Charisma score, using the same table used by psions to determine they're bonus power points per day.
Stunning Fist uses are recoverable with an hour of meditation, or an eight hour rest.

Ki Element

The Slayer gains Ki Element, the ability to focus Ki power into potent energy. Choose one of the four main energy types: Electric, Acid, Fire, or Cold. The Slayer can add the damage listed on the Table of the chosen energy damage to her melee attacks made with a Slayer weapon listed in Weapon Proficiency, if she chooses to include it (Free action). You can only add the damage once per round unless amplified, as shown in the upcoming options, but it ignores a number of energy resistance equal to one half your class levels.
Below are a list of options you have to Augment your Ki Element, multiple augmentations can be used at once but only one of each.

By spending one Stunning Fist use you can change the damage to 1d12 for every 8 damage listed,
or change total Ki Element damage to a single d6 for one round (useful at low levels)
or spend one stunning fist use to apply your energy resistance to an alternate energy of an incoming attack as an immediate action. If it has multiple energies you need to be resistant to, add one extra stunning fist cost per energy you wish to resist.
or deal your Ki Element damage at a range of 50ft +25ft/level, including unarmed damage in the form of concentrated force derived from your ki. Making this ranged attack is a standard action.

By spending two Stunning Fist uses the Slayer can deal 1d12 damage for every 8 damage listed at a range of 60ft +5ft for every point of Charisma modifier.
or add your character level to Ki Element damage.
or change the damage to 1d6 for every four damage listed.
or add Ki Element damage to a weapon not listed as a Slayer weapon for 5 rounds.
or by spending two stunning fist uses, you can add 1/2 your energy resistance again for one round.
or by spending two stunning fist uses, you can add your full Ki Element once more time per round. Can only use this trick once a round at most.

By spending Five stunning fist uses you can completely negate an attack your naturally resistant through by Ki Element's energy resistance, but not that from spending an extra point to gain temporary resistance against an incoming attack. To do that would cost Ten stunning fist uses.
Or you can make a normal Standard Action flurry as a Full Attack action, however it uses only Ki Element damage and not weapons, or unarmed damage, at a range of 60ft
Or you can attune a weapon that is not a Slayer Weapon to work with your Ki Element for 24 hours.
By spending five Stunning Fist uses, you can deal half your Ki Element damage with a ranged attack roll as if using your Standard Action flurry of blows. This is only your Ki Element damage, nothing extra. Range is 50ft +25ft/level.
These two can only be used once per day.

By expending at least half your remaining Stunning Fist uses you can deal a extra damage as if each point starts from level 1, and each point raises that level by another one to a maximum of your level + 5.
So a twentieth level Slayer who expends all her Stunning Fist uses when she had ten left would deal her base of 44 damage + 18 damage (The damage of a tenth level Slayer's Ki Element), or she could have only spent five and anywhere between.
By spending half your Stunning Fist uses, you can add your Ki Element damage to each attack made with a Flurry of Blows. You can make this at ranged, and you do not need a ranged weapon. Just the pure concentrated force of your element without any weapon bonuses. This does not mean that you cannot use a weapon, just if you have no ranged weapons and need to hit at range, you can go without. Range is 50ft +25ft/level.

Your Ki Element never damages you, and grants resistances to the same element equal to your character level + your constitution modifier.

Dual Elemental
At this level, the Slayer can choose a new Energy Type for they're Ki Element, they must choose which to use at any given time, and cannot use both at the same time. however, switching is a free action. They may now also choose from: Sonic, Force.

Tri Elemental
At this level, the Slayer can choose a new Energy Type for they're Ki Element, they must choose which to use at any given time, and cannot use both at the same time. however, switching is a free action. They may now also choose from: Positive, Negative.
Note: Yes, Negative will heal undead and Positive will heal most others. However, the few that are effected by Positive as damage take x1.5 extra damage. (44 becoming 66)

fist of the tempest
The Slayer sends out a force of elemental energy. It deals 1d12 + 1d12 for every five points of damage your Ki Element deals round up, so at twentieth you would deal 10d12 damage.
Each die can be split up into any type from the following:
Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, Sonic, Force, and even Bludgeoning and Slashing damages.
Using Fist of the Tempest takes a 1 round action to focus the energies and counts as a ninth level spell for determining Concentration saves. At the start of your next turn you release the Tempest which deals damage in a 60ft cone. Reflex save DC 19+Your Charisma modifier for half damage. Fist of the Tempest is usable a number of times per day equal to your Slayer level.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Your Flurry of Blows table doesn't reflect your text. (You need to apply the penalty to the BAB, so like -1/-1 at 1st level, +0/+0 at 2nd, etc). Also, you're skipping the extra attacks you're still getting from high BAB (This is why the normal monk didn't have full BAB). Your Flurry table should end like this: 20/20/20/15/10/5.

The AC bonus is fair, and the monk's light armor makes good sense, so I like that.

You forgot to mention the bonus feats in the text.

Otherwise, I like it. (Though it's probably just Tier 3)

Awesome hell knight avatar by gr8artist!

Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

<rant>Why do you want a Tier 2 class? Tier 2 isn't "more powerful than Tier 3," Tier 2 is "capable of breaking the game." What possible reason would you have to design a class for a game that's explicitly designed to break said game.</rant>

EDIT: You figured it out before I could post it.

But whatever. Class:

You've increased some numbers. Okay.

Flurry of Blows still requires a full attack, and the monk still has a speed boost which it can't use because it's designed to full attack. You seem to alleviate the problem with Tiger's Assault, you explicitly disallow the monk's variation on Pounce from being used with Flurry of Blows. What? Why?

Changing the key mental stat from Wisdom to Charisma is better for multiclassing and worse for the monk, since Wisdom is a better stat. Especially since you've also dropped the Will save, so now the monk has another area it's weak in.

Tumble skill requirements for class abilities are poor design, in my opinion. The monk is going to have a high tumble skill either way, due to having class abilities that give bonuses to or rely on tumble checks. There's no reason to require the skill ranks other than to say, "Well, you actually gain 5+Int skills and maxed-out tumble."

Slow Fall is still unbelievably substandard. Its distance is still pitiful, and it still requires you to be near a wall. So Feather Fall still beats it handily. At 1st level.

Weightless step fails to indicate what level it's gained at, either in the text or on the table. I'd assume eight, by the skill rank requirement?

On that subject, Tiger's Assault requires 14 ranks at level nine, meaning you can't actually use it until level 11. Also, why not just give the monk pounce? An insignificant tumble check is just going to slow down gameplay.

Diamond Body still comes in insultingly late.

Abundant step is unclear about uses per day, and about the action it requires to perform.

Diamond Soul still needs to only apply against hostile spells.

Thousand Fists needs to specify an action type. Otherwise, it looks okay, but it should come in earlier or it should have a higher penalty, and isn't there a penalty for fighting in someone else's space? If there is, it should ignore that.

Quivering Palm is Quivering Palm.

Spirit of the Wind comes in 7-10 levels later than it should.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon is still insulting.

Perfect Self gives you DR 10/+5. Uh ... is this a 3.0 class? (BTW, that "+5" should read "Epic.")

Forbidden Sequence isn't nearly good enough for the level it comes in at, especially considering it requires a full round action to initiate.

Last edited by gkathellar; 2011-07-21 at 12:27 PM.

Originally Posted by KKL

D&D is its own momentum and does its own fantasy. It emulates itself in an incestuous mess.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

What could I do to give it another little boost? so its high 3 or low 2?

More skill points might help?

Of course it's only 3. You don't seem to understand what the tiers actually mean.

Spoiler

Show

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

This is a "fightan dude" with the tools necessary to be good at being a "fightan dude", without getting completely shoehorned into one fighting style, with a decent skill list to be useful out of combat. The main things it gains are Full BAB, a party bonus saves against fear (which needs to have its activation action clarified), larger healing pool, and Fly Speed at 16th level. You still can't flurry and move without using the tumble maneuver (which is oddly worded). So yeah. Tier 3 (I guess?). At it's core it's still got most of the monk shenanigans that are flavorful but not all that fantastic. A bit more mobile though.

In any case, editing:

AC Bonus: It states they get the bonus when in light armor, but lose it when they wear any armor. Probably a copy paste bug.Wholeness of Body: Needs an activation action clarified.Tiger's Assault: Requires 14 ranks in Tumble but you acquire it at level 9. Change it to 12.Abundant Step: Should say "a number of times per day equal to his/her charisma bonus", instead of once and score. Generally abilities should never be based off the full score, and if you want more uses give a few base to add with the score.Thousand Fists: This still feels oddly worded, but maybe it's just me. Seems to do what Tiger's Assault doesn't for a +5 DC. Odd, but works.Spirit of Wind: Replace "Dance of the springing tiger" with "Tiger's Assault"; I'm pretty sure that's what you meant.Forbidden Sequence: No editing, but an average of 7~ damage and crit confirmation on a weapon that only crits on 20 isn't much for a capstone.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

The problem is that most people think Tier 2 is nothing more than "lots more powerful than a Warblade," which just isn't the case. At all.

Tier 2's have "as much raw power as Tier 1's," to quote the original Tier thread. They've got the bombs. The only Tier 3 class that comes anywhere close to that is Factotum for its ability to prep one-of SLAs of whatever wiz/sorc spells he wants up to 7th level. So Factotums have a handful of bombs, a few levels behind, once each per day, while Sorcerers have some more of the bombs a half dozen times or more each day as well as metamagic shenanigans and other amazingly powerful stuff open to them because they actually cast spells instead of using SLAs.

Without using spells, getting Tier 2 simply isn't possible without something just as overwhelmingly powerful to take their place.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

I personally say that Factotum is Tier 2 solely because it combines that limited not-very-limited-spellcasting with severe action economy abuse and nigh-infinite resources.

It has, at most, eight total SLAs per day which can be up to 7th level. At level 10 it has four 4th level SLAs per day. At 15th it has six 6th level SLAs.

Compared to a Sorcerer who at 10th level has (not counting cantrips or bonus spells per day) 26 spells per day, five of which are 4th level and three of which are 5th; at 15th level has 40 spells per day, six of which are 6th level and four of which are 7th; at 20th level has 54 spells per day, six of which are 7th level, six of which are 8th, and six of which are 9th.

At the same levels, and counting bonus spells per day, a Sorcerer can always out cast the Factotum with spells of the Factotum's maximum spell level and will always have at least a handful of spells of one or more levels higher than the Factotum's maximum spell level. Not only that, the Factotum is stuck using spell-like abilities, while the Sorcerer casts real spells. The differences when it comes to options to optimize are astoundingly vast.

I'm not arguing that Factotums aren't at the top of Tier 3. I am arguing that they are not Tier 2.

So yeah, those are the two ways to get up to Tier 1-2: spells and absurd numbers of actions.

Maybe with both combined, but I assure you, if you tacked amazing action abuse on to a Fighter it would be Tier 3 at best if it climbed a Tier at all.

As a matter of fact...

Spoiler

Show

THE FIGHTERAction Hero Variant

A thought experiment in action economy more than a serious fix. But seriously... take a look. It goes a long way.

Weapons and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats
A Fighter gets a bonus feat drawn from the list of Fighter bonus feats at 1st level, at 2nd level, and once every even level thereafter.

Always Ready (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Fighter cannot be surprised, though he may still be flat-footed. Additionally, he doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity for retrieving items stowed on his person. Furthermore, he may spend an immediate action at any time to move up to his speed. If he does, he loses his move action on his next turn.

Superior Reactions (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a Fighter cannot be flanked and retains his Dexterity modifier to AC even while flat-footed. Furthermore, whenever an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from the Fighter, instead of taking the attack he may perform any standard or move action (including, but not limited to, using a standard action to attack any other creature). If he does, this action counts against his number of attacks of opportunity for the round.

Snap Decision (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a Fighter no longer loses his next move action when he uses Always Ready to move as an immediate action. Furthermore, he may spend an immediate action at any time to perform a standard or move action. If he does, he loses his standard action on his next turn.

Array of Stunts I (Ex): Starting at 9th level, a Fighter may take a free 5ft step at any time in the round regardless of any other movement he has made that round. Additionally, he does not give up his next swift action when he uses an immediate action. Furthermore, his reach extends by 5ft.

Decisive Strike (Ex): Starting at 11th level, anytime a Fighter makes an attack against a creature when it isn't his turn (such as with an attack of opportunity or through Snap Decision) that attack resolves before any actions being performed by the targeted creature and is treated as if it were readied to interrupt that creature's actions, such that if the Fighter's attack hits the creature's actions utterly fail.

Tide of Battle (Ex): Starting at 13th level, a Fighter may move up to his speed as part of any standard or full round action he performs. Furthermore, he no longer loses his next standard action when he uses Snap Decision to perform a standard or move action as an immediate action.

Array of Stunts II (Ex): Starting at 15th level, a Fighter may take one free 5ft step at any time in the round per five Fighter levels regardless of any other movement he has made that round. Additionally, his reach extends by 5ft per ten Fighter levels. Furthermore, he may take one additional swift or immediate action each round per fifteen Fighter levels.

Surge of Effort I (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a Fighter may spend a swift action to gain either one full round action or a move action and a standard action. If he does, he is Fatigued after he completes his turn and may take no actions in the next round.

Surge of Effort II (Ex): Starting at 19th level, when the Fighter uses Surge of Effort he is still Fatigued, but he may take actions in the next round.

Combat Supremacy (Ex): Starting at 20th level, a Fighter may spend an immediate action to gain either one full round action or a move action and a standard action. If he does he is not Fatigued and may act normally in the next round.

New FeatCombat SuperiorityPrerequisites: Base Attack +6, Combat Expertise, Combat Focus, Combat ReflexesBenefit: You may make a full attack as a standard action or at the end of a charge.Normal: You may make a single attack as a standard action or at the end of a charge.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Fair enough. Though, I was referring mostly to the fact that a factotum can bust out something like 48 spells in a round if it takes enough Font of Inspiration.

The Factotum doesn't work that way. It doesn't matter how many Fonts of Inspiration you take you still only ever have, at 20th level, 8 total SLAs per day.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure you can apply metamagic to factotum SLAs if you have the feat.

Applying metamagic is the very tippiest tip of the iceberg when it comes to the optimization options that are available to real spellcasters casting real spells but not to classes like the Factotum. SLAs cannot be subject to metamagic, period. There are the specific feats such as Quicken Spell-like Ability or Empower Spell-like Ability, but they are not only not as good as traditional metamagic, they also don't offer analogs to the more powerful metamagic feats available to real spellcasters. Real spellcasters can also use feats, items, or PrCs to improve any number of their spellcasting attributes that SLA users simply gain no benefit from.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

You shouldn't have both unimpeded Flurry and Full BAB at 1st level. You should put it back to -2 til level 5, then -1 til level 9. Two attacks at the highest attack bonus with no penalty at first level is just insane.

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Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi

You shouldn't have both unimpeded Flurry and Full BAB at 1st level. You should put it back to -2 til level 5, then -1 til level 9. Two attacks at the highest attack bonus with no penalty at first level is just insane.

A kobold of any class (using the ROTD web enhancement) gets two attacks at its highest BAB at level 1, since both its claws are primary attacks. So does a razorclaw shifter (although it's a per-day resource) or any other race with two claw attacks.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Originally Posted by Benly

A kobold of any class (using the ROTD web enhancement) gets two attacks at its highest BAB at level 1, since both its claws are primary attacks. So does a razorclaw shifter (although it's a per-day resource) or any other race with two claw attacks.

Yes, and the kobold has -4 Str. Besides, claws don't use iterative attacks, so even if you have 20 BAB, you can only make 2 claw attacks.

Most races that have 2 claw attacks are unplayable at ECL 1 anyway. Other than the kobold (who has the aforementioned -4 Str, along with their claws only dealing 1d3 damage each), the razorclaw shifter, which is both campaign specific and limited to very few rounds per day.

Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-07-21 at 06:07 PM.

Awesome hell knight avatar by gr8artist!

Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi

Yes, and the kobold has -4 Str. Besides, claws don't use iterative attacks, so even if you have 20 BAB, you can only make 2 claw attacks.

Most races that have 2 claw attacks are unplayable at ECL 1 anyway. Other than the kobold (who has the aforementioned -4 Str, along with their claws only dealing 1d3 damage each), the razorclaw shifter, which is both campaign specific and limited to very few rounds per day.

It's true, totemists have to wait for level 2. Psychic warriors get it from level 1, but only for a few hours per day.

My point of view is that when evaluating this as a low-level ability, flurry of blows, being limited to unarmed strikes and selected weapons with not-very-good stats, is comparable to natural attacks.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

It's true, totemists have to wait for level 2. Psychic warriors get it from level 1, but only for a few hours per day.

My point of view is that when evaluating this as a low-level ability, flurry of blows, being limited to unarmed strikes and selected weapons with not-very-good stats, is comparable to natural attacks.

(also psst the kobold can use a class with sneak attack, pass it on)

I'm comparing it to Two-Weapon Fighting, and the normal monk ability, which are both the standard options for multiple attacks at 1st level, rather than using circumstantial pseudo-magic systems subject to DM approval.

Awesome hell knight avatar by gr8artist!

Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi

I'm comparing it to Two-Weapon Fighting, and the normal monk ability, which are both the standard options for multiple attacks at 1st level, rather than using circumstantial pseudo-magic systems subject to DM approval.

Whereas I'm comparing it to other tier 3 classes (the stated target balance point), rather than using the class abilities of tier 4 and 5 classes.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi

Two attacks at the highest attack bonus with no penalty at first level is just insane.

This is what you said. You are now changing the goalposts, as the internets like to put it. You are changing the goalposts because you know you have no argument to defend your statement, if I may be so bold.

As a matter of fact, here's a similarly blunt statement that I will proceed to defend with facts: "Spending a feat to gain the ability to make two attacks with a light weapon with a -2 penalty to hit and half damage with the off-hand is just insane."

Defense: Any melee-oriented character can, without spending a feat, pick up a two-handed weapon and attack at no penalty to hit to deal more damage.

For example, Dirk Diggler, a 1st level Warrior has taken the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and wields a Handaxe and a Shortsword. He has a Strength score of 18. When he attacks he may make two attacks at +3 to hit and deals 1d6+4 damage with the first and 1d6+2 with the second.

Meanwhile, Grok Smasksh, another 1st level Warrior picks up a Greataxe. He hasn't even thought about what feat he might take. He also has a Strength score of 18. When he attacks he makes one attack at +5 to hit and deals 1d12+6 damage.

Comparatively, Dirk deals 10% less damage than Grok because of his lower attack bonus. Dirk then deals an average of 11.7 damage per round, while Grok deals 12.5.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Originally Posted by Ziegander

This is what you said. You are now changing the goalposts, as the internets like to put it. You are changing the goalposts because you know you have no argument to defend your statement, if I may be so bold.

As you wish. Let me be frank then.

At first level, the ability to hit twice for half damage is much better than the ability to hit once for full. After all, at first level, the dice play a much bigger "roll" in determining whether you beat an opponent's AC. To use your example (which was incorrect), two melee fighters, one a battle monk and one a fighter, attack the same opponent. They each have +5 to hit, (18 Str and +1 BAB), and the opponent has 4 HP and 14 AC.

The fighter has a 55% chance of killing the target. The monk has a 55% chance of killing the target, two times in a row. Damage isn't nearly as important at first level as hit chance is.

Edit: This is why Two-Weapon Fighting exists (And requires a feat to even use, as opposed to sword and board or two-handed). In the first few levels, extra attacks will almost guarantee you to hit and a hit is pretty much guaranteed to kill. (With high enough Str)

The monk doesn't have an off-hand, so TWF's normal -2 penalty on both attack rolls and half Str on the off-hand attack (WotC's intended balance point) do not apply. The monk is able to be twice as likely to kill as any normal warrior because he relies less on luck.

Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-07-21 at 06:40 PM.

Awesome hell knight avatar by gr8artist!

Originally Posted by TheEmperor

I take back my gratefulness for NeoSeraphi being DM here.
I swear he's Asmodeus's avatar on this earth.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

Maybe what's actually insane is the common practice of fighting CR 1/4 creatures at 1st level and then using them as any kind of argument for or against balance.

Seriously, four CR 1/4 creatures are intended to equal one CR 1 creature, and one CR 1 creature isn't an appropriate challenge to a party of four 1st level characters.

But against a CR 1 creature, like a Grimlock or a Small Animated Object, the difference is 2 damage per round. In a more sane game the difference is not between one or two kills per round, it is, in fact, between 13 average damage per round and 15 damage per round. OMFG.

And again, you're comparing what is intended to be a Tier 3 class (the Battle Monk) against an un-optimized Fighter (low Tier 4). Instead, look at what any Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade can do at 1st level.

Re: [Base Class- Intended teir: 2+- 3.5] Battle Monk

As you wish. Let me be frank then.

At first level, the ability to hit twice for half damage is much better than the ability to hit once for full. After all, at first level, the dice play a much bigger "roll" in determining whether you beat an opponent's AC. To use your example (which was incorrect), two melee fighters, one a battle monk and one a fighter, attack the same opponent. They each have +5 to hit, (18 Str and +1 BAB), and the opponent has 4 HP and 14 AC.

The fighter has a 55% chance of killing the target. The monk has a 55% chance of killing the target, two times in a row. Damage isn't nearly as important at first level as hit chance is.

Edit: This is why Two-Weapon Fighting exists (And requires a feat to even use, as opposed to sword and board or two-handed). In the first few levels, extra attacks will almost guarantee you to hit and a hit is pretty much guaranteed to kill. (With high enough Str)

The monk doesn't have an off-hand, so TWF's normal -2 penalty on both attack rolls and half Str on the off-hand attack (WotC's intended balance point) do not apply. The monk is able to be twice as likely to kill as any normal warrior because he relies less on luck.