(24-04-2014 11:21 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote: There seems to be a tone that resonates with a lot of arrogance and smug behavior. I get it, because just the other day I started a thread on here that I shouldn't have where I was ridiculing Fundamentalist Christians for believing some of the stupidity with a literal interpretation of the bible, young earth creationism, etc. I was thinking that people like Baptists, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who go door to door trying to convert the unwashed masses most likely push more people away from Christianity than they do to convert people to it. I think people who believe that there is no God can come across with an abrasive attitude that can push people towards Christianity/Islam/Judaism than to guide them away from those faiths.

I'm coming from the point that at this point in my life I'm fully open to exploring POV's between theistic and atheistic ideals, so maybe I'm biased in my thoughts about this. Also, I can understand most people who are atheists not caring if theists are offended by comments because atheism is typically not in the business of trying to convert people unlike religion. But for me, I do not know any avowed atheists personally. I'm sure there are a few who are in the closet or like me who don't know what to believe. I know at the end of the day if I take that final plunge and embrace atheism (which looks like I'm moving down this path), I will have to remain in the closet for some time based on my current relationships.

My question is why heap so much ridicule on theists if you're sure you are correct? IMHO, if someone chooses to remain ignorant, that's on them. I'm eager to see your thoughts on this.

Well, suppose you met someone who, at the age of 30, adamantly believe in Santa Claus? I worked with someone who believed that the moon landing was a hoax and kept arguing that it was possible to fake it. I said I saw it on TV when it happened and they didn't have the ability to make graphics or simulate weightlessness back then and it was obviously real and it would have been more difficult to invent those technologies than to blast a tin can into the air with some guys at the end of it. He said I wasn't there to see any of it so...

Anyway, I felt like hitting him but as I was his employer, I just got rid of him. I feel the same way about religious people, and monarchists...

(24-04-2014 02:29 PM)Mathilda Wrote: Personally I give new posters the benefit of the doubt even when they come out with christian arguments. After all, for a lot of people, it's the only way they know how to think because they have been steeped in apologetics their entire life. You can quickly tell though whether they do or do not want to learn. If they ask further questions and don't keep reverting back to arguments that people have taken time to refute then they are probably just trying to get their head round a completely new way of thinking. If they persist with a line of question and are trying to dismiss any answers given to them then they have a different agenda.

I do understand why some atheists express a lot of anger. When something intrudes upon your life and degrades it to a significant extent and you have no way out then it helps to have a place to rant. It can be hard to appreciate that if religion hasn't intruded on your life. Religion hasn't been a problem for me but there have been other times in my life which are comparable.

Some trolls really do just need their arses kicked by the bulldogs on the forum otherwise it can look like their bullshit is given more respect than it actually is. The problem is that the bulldogs can sniff out false positives with those genuinely trying to develop their own fledgling critical thinking skills whilst at the same time shaking off a lifetime's worth of conditioning.

We're all different, we've all led different lives and we're all at different stages in our lives.

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I promise all of you that I am not a troll and that I am serious about seeking out the truth about faith.

Someone mentioned that they are sick and tired about seeing Atheism treated as another faith. I didn't mean to do that if I did, and I know that it is not a faith.

Re..."I am serious about seeking out the truth about faith."

AH AH !!! This is the issue. It boils down to "is the bible telling the truth?" I'm convinced the answer is a resounding NO. Or, put another way....

Good philosophy is best determined by considering the truth, which is the accurate depiction of reality; what has happened, and what is happening in the present. Truth is never the depiction of something that never was or isn’t real. Biblical authors knew they were lying. A book based on deliberate lies shouldn’t be revered. No religion is more important than truth. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQJ3sqkdCRE).

An honest God didn’t write it, nor did bona-fide historians, or sincere people who cared about their readers. It was penned by power hungry priests and propagandists; spin-doctors asserting their authority.

Most educated objective people can easily identify lies. An unbiased reading of the bible reveals writings awash in false history, magic, deplorable ethics, narcissism and general weirdness. Yet it’s all written as though it’s talking truth.

It may have impressed uneducated people prior to the Renaissance, yet it doesn’t cut the mustard today. The bible, a product of the petty politics of power-hungry people, is nothing more than a mountain of untrue, immoral, superstitious nonsense.

(26-04-2014 09:35 AM)evenheathen Wrote: Not to piss in anyone's cheerios, but I'm wondering why we're feeling the need to capitalize the A in atheism. Seen it a few times in this thread. It's a proper position to hold, but not a proper noun.

Conversely I always make sure to use lower case for the word 'christian'. Why should that be capitalised but now other words like atheism, scientist, accountant or philatelist?

(27-04-2014 02:31 AM)Mathilda Wrote: Conversely I always make sure to use lower case for the word 'christian'. Why should that be capitalised but now other words like atheism, scientist, accountant or philatelist?

It should be capitalized because it's a proper adjective; it's no different from words like "English" or "German."

(27-04-2014 02:31 AM)Mathilda Wrote: Conversely I always make sure to use lower case for the word 'christian'. Why should that be capitalised but now other words like atheism, scientist, accountant or philatelist?

It should be capitalized because it's a proper adjective; it's no different from words like "English" or "German."

OK you seem to have a good point there. The word 'Atheism' is different to 'Christianity' because the former describes a state or practice whereas the latter describes a group of people.

(24-04-2014 11:21 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote: My question is why heap so much ridicule on theists if you're sure you are correct? IMHO, if someone chooses to remain ignorant, that's on them. I'm eager to see your thoughts on this.

Provoke them! Piss them off! Make them want to PROVE us wrong. They'll do their homework on what it means to prove anything, what is evidence and they'll learn that their evidence sucks. I think it works.

But when I think of that, I don't really know how believers see nice atheists. What if believers are so self-centered, that they just ignore nice atheists?

I mean, you guys would be proud of me, when I debate the Christian before the audience. The Christian makes a series of lectures with questions and debate afterwards, right here in the dormitory building. The audience is mostly non-Christians. Local students are mostly chemists and don't understand philosophy or religion much. So I give them a taste of atheism, logic and moral philosophy, I spice up the question sessions. Hell, I almost take them over.

90 % of my work would be done, if only these people defined their concepts properly! Christians are unable to define their words in one way and then keep with their definitions. They equivocate and shift the goalposts, all that it takes to get to their prescribed goal, God is real and Bible is true. The only help against that is to hold onto the semantic triangle like a lifeline and to stand high to see over the greatest heaps of non-sequitur bullshit avalanches that they try to bury me under. Storks bring the children! Old books can prove that a man rose from the dead!
What I do, is relentlessly commenting on all the factually wrong bullshit - the standard atheist curriculum, bible errancy, pointing out fallacies like Pascal's wager, explaining evolution...
But when some young, intelligent Christians talk about love, relationships and feelings, they're often very correct. So then I support them. I add my 5 cents of what I learned from psychology and moral philosophy. I make a clear distinction where I see genuine love, honesty and good will and where I see the standard Christian Xerox propaganda.

I think it works, but it requires to have a rich inner experience of life, an inspiration and making effort to live well. That is the good stuff to share with Christians and non-Christian bystanders.
When Christians informally, in private talk about their various "paranormal" or mystical experiences, I say that I know what they mean, been through it, but I don't talk about it. If I don't have an evidence for something, I shouldn't talk about it in the public, especially when the talk is often about scientific and historical evidence. (anonymously on the net is pretty much fine by me)

(24-04-2014 11:21 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote: There seems to be a tone that resonates with a lot of arrogance and smug behavior. I get it, because just the other day I started a thread on here that I shouldn't have where I was ridiculing Fundamentalist Christians for believing some of the stupidity with a literal interpretation of the bible, young earth creationism, etc. I was thinking that people like Baptists, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who go door to door trying to convert the unwashed masses most likely push more people away from Christianity than they do to convert people to it. I think people who believe that there is no God can come across with an abrasive attitude that can push people towards Christianity/Islam/Judaism than to guide them away from those faiths.

I'm coming from the point that at this point in my life I'm fully open to exploring POV's between theistic and atheistic ideals, so maybe I'm biased in my thoughts about this. Also, I can understand most people who are atheists not caring if theists are offended by comments because atheism is typically not in the business of trying to convert people unlike religion. But for me, I do not know any avowed atheists personally. I'm sure there are a few who are in the closet or like me who don't know what to believe. I know at the end of the day if I take that final plunge and embrace atheism (which looks like I'm moving down this path), I will have to remain in the closet for some time based on my current relationships.

My question is why heap so much ridicule on theists if you're sure you are correct? IMHO, if someone chooses to remain ignorant, that's on them. I'm eager to see your thoughts on this.

Depending on how zealous one is, Christianity for example is a religion that is designed to get its followers to preach on its behalf. Jesus told his followers to 'go make Disciples of all nations.' It may come across to some of us as smug, and some religious people ARE smug, but many feel it's their calling to lead souls to Christ. Seriously, they believe this. I was once a Christian, I once believed this. Although, I'd like to think I was never smug in my delivery.

Atheists and now I am one, can come across smug at times too, but I think it's more of a reactionary response to being accosted by religion in what should remain secular life. Plus, as an atheist, it's important to plant seeds of truth. I find it hard myself to listen to creationism, for example and take it at all seriously. Does this mean I'm smug, or do I just choose to only base my life in reality now?

(24-04-2014 11:21 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote: There seems to be a tone that resonates with a lot of arrogance and smug behavior. I get it, because just the other day I started a thread on here that I shouldn't have where I was ridiculing Fundamentalist Christians for believing some of the stupidity with a literal interpretation of the bible, young earth creationism, etc. I was thinking that people like Baptists, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who go door to door trying to convert the unwashed masses most likely push more people away from Christianity than they do to convert people to it. I think people who believe that there is no God can come across with an abrasive attitude that can push people towards Christianity/Islam/Judaism than to guide them away from those faiths.

I'm coming from the point that at this point in my life I'm fully open to exploring POV's between theistic and atheistic ideals, so maybe I'm biased in my thoughts about this. Also, I can understand most people who are atheists not caring if theists are offended by comments because atheism is typically not in the business of trying to convert people unlike religion. But for me, I do not know any avowed atheists personally. I'm sure there are a few who are in the closet or like me who don't know what to believe. I know at the end of the day if I take that final plunge and embrace atheism (which looks like I'm moving down this path), I will have to remain in the closet for some time based on my current relationships.

My question is why heap so much ridicule on theists if you're sure you are correct? IMHO, if someone chooses to remain ignorant, that's on them. I'm eager to see your thoughts on this.

Depending on how zealous one is, Christianity for example is a religion that is designed to get its followers to preach on its behalf. Jesus told his followers to 'go make Disciples of all nations.' It may come across to some of us as smug, and some religious people ARE smug, but many feel it's their calling to lead souls to Christ. Seriously, they believe this. I was once a Christian, I once believed this. Although, I'd like to think I was never smug in my delivery.

(27-04-2014 11:40 AM)Deidre32 Wrote: Depending on how zealous one is, Christianity for example is a religion that is designed to get its followers to preach on its behalf. Jesus told his followers to 'go make Disciples of all nations.' It may come across to some of us as smug, and some religious people ARE smug, but many feel it's their calling to lead souls to Christ. Seriously, they believe this. I was once a Christian, I once believed this. Although, I'd like to think I was never smug in my delivery.

I was in a bible study where grown men started crying because of the people they didn't witness to who are now in hell. They believed their witnessing discipline had eternal consequences. They also used Chick tracts.