Topic: The right to defend oneself in the UK

As an American, I believe that it is a God-given right that people should be should be allowed to defend themselves. I also believe in the right to bear firearms. Unfortunately, because of draconian gun control laws, people in the UK are unable to properly defend themselves. In most dangerous situations where a person’s life is threatened, law enforcement is not able to get to the scene quick enough. In such a case, the person being assailed must defend himself/herself the best they can, but without firearms the person is greatly disadvantaged. Small men and women are particularly venerable without guns; and in some situations (God forbid), lethal force is the only answer. An enraged or drugged-up attacker often cannot be stopped by non-leathal methods like pepper spray and tazers, - such methods are iffy at best. Just the proliferation of guns to civilians sends the message to would-be assailants that if they intend to rape, mug, or kill someone, they had better be prepared to die for it. In this way, guns are effective without ever being fired. Not too long ago several countries passed legislation that banned firearms, but new statistics are showing a surge of crime. In my own country, the United States, the concealed weapons ban was repealed in our capital Washington D.C. because of the rampant crime, and FBI statistics are showing a sharp decline in crime as gun ownership went up.

Please give me your imput no matter which country you live in. I especially want to hear what people in the UK think.

October 29th, 2004

Shadowalker

I dont believe we should be able to. We have done without carrying guns in the past and if you allow people to carry guns on the streets then i believe that more guns will go to people who shouldnt get them and there will be more gun crime. We already have problems with firearms in several cities and giving people the license to carry a gun will mean that they can get guns legally and the violence will increase. If in england you want to fire a gun legally you go to a gun club and thats how i believe it should stay. Also giving guns top people on the streets also drags up whole new problems as when can they be used? if a drunk man goes up to a lady and though hes trying to be nice but she thinks that hes threataning her and she shoots him, whats that? possibly manslaughter?

October 29th, 2004

ravensword227

Somehow, most people in your country are predisposed against firearms, and I see no logical reason - none whatsoever – for these bans. I wonder how many people came into this thread and actually read the article before voting instead of letting their biases get the best of them. The fact of the matter is, crimes commited by physical assault, with a blunt weapon or sharp object like a knife; in these instances the person that is the strongest has the advantage. With that you will have thugs running the street that can target the defenseless, especially women, and they can get away with whatever they want knowing that their victim can’t fight back. Does that sound “civilized” to you? It sounds pretty backwards to me. I thought we were supposed to be a society of people where everyone is equal.

Guns don’t cause crime – criminals do and they usually use illegal firearms anyway, so why do we disarm legal gun owners? If a thug brandishing a gun or another weapon, he will think twice before attacking somebody if he is in an area where the people own firearms, for he knows that he could lose his life just as quick as he could take it. Thugs don’t want to attack somebody that can defend themselves; no they want to pick on the defenseless so they have an easy job.

Gun deaths by crime or accidents are negligible when you compare it to automobile deaths, but you don’t see us banning vehicles now do you? You will indeed see high firearms deaths in the U.S. statistics but those statistics won’t tell you how many lives were saved. If a gun owner kills a knife wielding assailant, that counts as a firearm death. If a woman kills a rapist, that counts as a death… If a man kills a burgler, that counts as a death. You get the picture.

These are the unbiased figures. You see that disarming the legal gunowners won't effect the criminal, but it will make his job a lot easier.

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October 29th, 2004

Shadowalker

My viewpoint is that if a criminal does have a gun and goes for an armed robbery and people in the bank for instance also have guns theres more likely to be innocent people killed if there is a firefight.

If a gun owner kills a knife wielding assailant, that counts as a firearm death. If a woman kills a rapist, that counts as a death… You get the picture.

But how does the gun owner know the knife wielder is going to actually stab him? does the woman know shes going to be raped? If they shoot the person just because they think there going to do something, then that opens up whole new arguments and situations.

Ive seen the stats showing that there is no link between gun ownership and homicides etc. and yes there are countries such as norway and switzerland where they have high amounts of gun ownership and still levels of homicide that are lower than the Uk's. But theres still homicide its not going to stop if guns are legalised, weve had high profile court cases where farmers have defended there properties with shotguns and have wounded the burglars and the farmers have gone to jail. With the laws we have in the UK it is better not to own guns as if you use them even in self-defence you can still get charged for murder/manslaughter.

October 29th, 2004

ravensword227

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowalker

My viewpoint is that if a criminal does have a gun and goes for an armed robbery and people in the bank for instance also have guns theres more likely to be innocent people killed if there is a firefight.

So the smug bastard should just walk into the bank an knock it off because the cops and people are unarmed? Unacceptable. If the bastard robs a bank in America, he will have earned it because he has to get past armed guards and civilians first. I don't give a shit if he is armed with a gun or not, a bullet can kill him just as easy. This is my point, he will no doubt think twice before robbing or assaulting a person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowalker

But how does the gun owner know the knife wielder is going to actually stab him? does the woman know shes going to be raped? If they shoot the person just because they think there going to do something, then that opens up whole new arguments and situations.

If somebody pulls a knife on you they aren’t trying to be friendly, you know . You can tell a lot by looking into a person’s body language and if you keep you pistol close you can get them if they move to attack you. Of course many criminals will stop their act if they know attacking a person could cost them their life.

An armed society is a polite society.

October 29th, 2004

Shadowalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravensword227

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowalker

My viewpoint is that if a criminal does have a gun and goes for an armed robbery and people in the bank for instance also have guns theres more likely to be innocent people killed if there is a firefight.

So the smug bastard should just walk into the bank an knock it off because the cops and people are unarmed? Unacceptable. If the bastard robs a bank in America, he will have earned it because he has to get past armed guards and civilians first. I don't give a shit if he is armed with a gun or not, a bullet can kill him just as easy. This is my point, he will no doubt think twice before robbing or assaulting a person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowalker

But how does the gun owner know the knife wielder is going to actually stab him? does the woman know shes going to be raped? If they shoot the person just because they think there going to do something, then that opens up whole new arguments and situations.

If somebody pulls a knife on you they aren’t trying to be friendly, you know . You can tell a lot by looking into a person’s body language and if you keep you pistol close you can get them if they move to attack you. Of course many criminals will stop their act if they know attacking a person could cost them their life.

An armed society is a polite society.

So its ok for innocent people to be killed in a firefight? There is still many crimes being commited in america even though there is mass gun ownership, doesnt seem to be stopping them! but it is different for every country in the world, in britain we dont have a history of gun ownership and nobody protests against the rules not allowing us to, whereas in america you have a history of guns, your nation was founded through wars. Your rifle club/organization seems to have political influence due to americas history of guns. We dont need it here in Britain, people i know here would like to own guns but its not a neccessity top own a gun for them to feel safe.

October 29th, 2004

ravensword227

Ideally everyone will not only carry a gun, but they will be well trained in its use. Take for instance, a car is a very dangerous machine if the operator is unfamiliar with it and the same applies to guns. In America we like to start the training at an early age so proficiency with firearms will be almost instinctual; by the same hand, we teach the four main laws of gun safety:

Rule One - All guns are always loaded.Rule Two - Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.Rule Three - Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.Rule Four - Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it, and what is behind it. Never shoot anything you have not positively identified.

You know a lot of deaths from firearms are because of accidents and because a person just doesn’t realize what a bullet can do to a human being. The more educated and familiar a person is with a gun, the less likely accidents will happen. I myself was raised with firearms and I was shooting pistols at age five.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowalker

in britain we dont have a history of gun ownership

Hogwash! There was a time when Great Britain had some of the best shooters in the world. Britain used to win in international shooting competitions almost every year, but when your government started this gun ban BS, you guys fell behind. I am not talking about the petty .22 rifles and air-rifles that are in the Olympics either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowalker

We dont need it here in Britain, people i know here would like to own guns but its not a neccessity top own a gun for them to feel safe.

I have heard this snobby “we don’t need Americanism here” argument from the Brits, and that is often how your people equate gun ownership. It shouldn’t be this way. Great Britain and the rest of European countries are great Democracies, but most are backward in one major civil right: the right of self-defense. A man should be able to defend his life, the life of his loved ones, and his castle. Forget America, this is about your rights!

October 29th, 2004

SHERMAN

I think the right to carry weapons in self defence is natural and should never be taken away. Criminals use illigal weapons anyways.

October 29th, 2004

Shadowalker

I never brought 'americanism' up! We dont live in an ideal world and some people wont have the training and will be dangerous to themselves and others. We havent been brought up since the age of 5 with guns so we wont have the respect for guns that you have.
When was the last time british citizens were legally aloud to carry guns in the streets?
Why dont we europeans all take karate/judo/jujitsu lessons as a form of self defence if we are behind in the civil right of self-defense, its a safer option.

More is needed to be done in england to combat violent crime and to stop prosecuting people who defend themselves. I would be in full favour of the police being able to carry firearms, but for all british citizens to carry guns in the street i am against. more gun clubs yes, more armed police yes.

October 29th, 2004

SHERMAN

Becuase, when you take even the best Karate expert, and someone with a gun, and put 5-15 meters between them, the Karate guy is in for a mouth full of lead...There is nothing unsafe about guns. We have 3 weapons at home, and we use to have more. This includes all sorts of pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and other. Never, and I maen never, did I play with my parents weapons. Why? Because I am gun educated. People who are taught how to use guns safley are less likely to have an exident. And like I said, criminals use illigal weapons anyway.