Just to get things back on track a little...I am strongly AGAINST banning cluster munitions...I am FOR their use... I wish we still employed napalm... Remember, I have employed both weapons, effectively, resulting in fewer casualties on our side and massive losses to he enemy...which is precisely how we should always fight!!!... and I never want to see the United States ever submit its military technology for approval by anyone other than ourselves!

BUT, if someone wants to discuss why certain weapons should not be used in certain places under certain conditions I have no problem with that sort of debate.

[QUOTE=rangerken;568078]Just to get things back on track a little...I am strongly AGAINST banning cluster munitions...I am FOR their use... I wish we still employed napalm... Remember, I have employed both weapons, effectively, resulting in fewer casualties on our side and massive losses to he enemy...which is precisely how we should always fight!!!... and I never want to see the United States ever submit its military technology for approval by anyone other than ourselves!

BUT, if someone wants to discuss why certain weapons should not be used in certain places under certain conditions I have no problem with that sort of debate.

Ken[/QUOTE]

rangerken,

Can you provide any military justification for Israel dropping millions of cluster bombs all over villages and around villages in Southern Lebanon after the cease fire was agreed upon? I see it as an intentional attack on the civilian population, and absolutely nothing else, and that is how Amnesty Intl saw it and Human Rights Watch saw it, too. How is this justified by the rules of war?

I certainly cannot support weapons being used to target civilian populations, that sit around for years after the conflict ends, continuing to threaten that civilian population. This is what cluster bombs represent, and how they are used.

I believe the civilian population in Vietnam are still suffering from our use of napalm on their civilian population. The use of chemical weapons on human beings is never justified.

[QUOTE=rangerken;568078]I never want to see the United States ever submit its military technology for approval by anyone other than ourselves! BUT, if someone wants to discuss why certain weapons should not be used in certain places under certain conditions I have no problem with that sort of debate.[/QUOTE]The question in your case, Ken, seems to be whether you can accept the idea of civilian leadership.

That non-soldiers decide on military issues.

Like joining a cluster bomb ban treaty.

- -

You know, my home country of Prussia has a very strong tradition of military mingling in politics. It gave us a bad reputation that finally cost us 75% or so of our territory, despite the fact that Prussian style and politics actually was not directly responsible (nor remotely similar) to what happened in WW2.

With hindsight, we know that a mindset of trusting military experts and military leaders breeds a civil society incapable of correcting its own mistakes -- it goes directly against democracy, plays into the hands of dictatorial regimes.

Now, I see that you would never support a military coup d'état in the USA, right? But why do you oppose any structural attempts to rule out such a happening, to structurally disempower the arms producers?

What are your thoughts on Ike's warning against "the congressional-military-industrial complex"?

[QUOTE=CharikIeia;567840]When cowards run from an argument, it is intellectual integrity they escape.

Sheesh! Can't you even think one ally further ahead?

Is this thread about "Canada"?[/QUOTE]

You asked a question about the IDF use of cluster munitions in a specific campain. I do not know how the IDF employs them, do not know if their use in this case was in keeping with that doctrine, nor what efforts they made (if any) to clear unexploded munitions at battles end.

How do you expect me to answer a specific question in the absence of specific information? I realize that you and yours generally feel competant to answer any and all questions with abosolutly no facts, in the sublime certainty that you must be right. Oddly enough, at the university where I received my degree, this was frowned upon as sloppy, and lazy. How odd that you seem to think it represents some form of courage.

Israel is not an ally. I did a tour peacekeeping between them and their neighbors. Its a tossup which side wanted us there less.

[QUOTE=John_T_Mainer;569521]You asked a question about the IDF use of cluster munitions in a specific campain. I do not know how the IDF employs them, do not know if their use in this case was in keeping with that doctrine, nor what efforts they made (if any) to clear unexploded munitions at battles end.

How do you expect me to answer a specific question in the absence of specific information? I realize that you and yours generally feel competant to answer any and all questions with abosolutly no facts, in the sublime certainty that you must be right. Oddly enough, at the university where I received my degree, this was frowned upon as sloppy, and lazy. How odd that you seem to think it represents some form of courage.

Israel is not an ally. I did a tour peacekeeping between them and their neighbors. Its a tossup which side wanted us there less.[/QUOTE]

John_T_Mainer,

Here is a link to an article in the Christian Science Monitor entitled Injuries in Lebanon revive bid to ban cluster bombs Cluster bombs have killed at least 22 and injured 133 since the end of this summer's conflict between Israel and Hizbullah. By Lucy Fielder http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1107/p11s01-wome.html

The story begins with an interview with a 13 year old in Lebanon, Hassan Hammade, who was picking oranges near his home when a strange object fell from a tree. He picked it up and started to play with it and it blew up, blasting four fingers from his right hand and causing other injuries to his stomach and shoulder. The humanitarian organization Islamic Relief flew Hassan to Birmingham, England, for surgery. "Now I'm trying to write with my left hand at school, but when they give me new fingers, I hope I'll be able to write again and one day play sports," he says.

This article was written in 2006, and already from the war that ended in August, cluster bombs had killed at least 22 civilians and injured 133 from the conflict between Israel and Hizbullah, during which Israel showered southern Lebanon with US & Israeli made cluster bombs. It was South Lebanon's fallout that fueled campaigns for a ban on cluster bombs, akin to the prohibition of antipersonnel mines adopted in 1997. Civilians, many of them children, make up 98% of those killed and injured by cluster bombs, Handicap International found. "Military personnel from user countries consider any [environment where cluster bomb attacks have occurred] a minefield, and the claim of disproportionate risk and harm to civilians is unquestionable," said the group, which analyzed the effects of the munitions in 24 countries and regions including Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, and Laos as well as Lebanon. 27% of casualties are children, it said.

Daily casualties from cluster bombs in southern Lebanon have dropped to between two and three per day, from a high of more than three per day in the first month after the war that ended on August 14, Handicap International said. Most injuries or deaths were near houses. Cluster munitions are not banned weapon, but use in civilian areas violates the international ban on the use of indiscriminate weapons.

According to the UN, Israel dropped 90% of the cluster bombs in the last 72 hours of the war, when all parties knew a cease-fire was imminent. Farmer and father of five Hussam Murtada has taken no chances, not allowing his children to even play outside. Lurking danger only compounds the residual impact of the war, which killed about 1,200 people in Lebanon, mostly civilians. The Murtada family sat the fight out, unable to afford to leave."The kids are still terrified; they only have to see a plane to start crying and run and hide," he says.

Experts say Israel dropped about 4 million submunitions on Lebanon. More than a quarter failed to explode on impact and have effectively become a multitude of landmines. The bomblets are devastating rural southern Lebanon's economy, which relies on farming. Tobacco, wheat, and fruit rotted in the fields. People were afraid to harvest olives in olive groves and harvest bananas.

The UN says Israel has not provided vital information that would speed up clearance and south Lebanon's safety and recovery. "We have been asking for the grid references and how many were dropped, but we still haven't received them," Farran says. Some of the cluster bombs Israel dropped were Vietnam-era US supplies, increasing the lethal dud-rate, but Landmine Action dismissed arguments that using modern types would solve the problem, pointing out that one such make, the Israeli-made M85, currently littered southern Lebanon. "The massive and widespread use of cluster munitions across southern Lebanon does not seem to accord with any recognizable legitimate military strategy," it said.

Israel also engaged in widespread use of cluster bombs in civilian areas in its 1982 invasion of Lebanon. Israel also used cluster bombs in Lebanon in 1978, 1996 and 2005, the residue of which still kill or maim two people a year, Handicap International said.

Chari, I'm an extremely strong supporter of civilian control over our military. And if our civilian leaders tell our military they cannot use cluster munitions our military will not use them...of course...as in DUH!

My point is that this should be for us to decide and only in terms of what is in the best interests of our military being able to win on the battlefield.

What I am opposed to is, to be specific, anything remotely like UN control over our military operations, policies, procedures, tactics, or equipment. That should be our business only.

Now you could legitimately ask me if I thought we then had the right to tell other countries what they may or may not use re: weaponry. It's really simple, Chari...no, we do not have the 'right'...but as long as we have the ability to do that, and it is in our own best interests to do that, we should do that.

Remember, Chari, I am a strong American nationalist...always. I'm in favor of acting multilaterally ONLY if and when it serves our purposes.

I fully understand that most on thisd board do not agree, which is fine. All are entitled to their opionions after all. I just do not to ever be accused of either dishonesty or hypocracy.

Here is a link to an article in the Christian Science Monitor entitled Injuries in Lebanon revive bid to ban cluster bombs Cluster bombs have killed at least 22 and injured 133 since the end of this summer's conflict between Israel and Hizbullah. By Lucy Fielder http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1107/p11s01-wome.html

The story begins with an interview with a 13 year old in Lebanon, Hassan Hammade, who was picking oranges near his home when a strange object fell from a tree. He picked it up and started to play with it and it blew up, blasting four fingers from his right hand and causing other injuries to his stomach and shoulder. The humanitarian organization Islamic Relief flew Hassan to Birmingham, England, for surgery. "Now I'm trying to write with my left hand at school, but when they give me new fingers, I hope I'll be able to write again and one day play sports," he says.

This article was written in 2006, and already from the war that ended in August, cluster bombs had killed at least 22 civilians and injured 133 from the conflict between Israel and Hizbullah, during which Israel showered southern Lebanon with US & Israeli made cluster bombs. It was South Lebanon's fallout that fueled campaigns for a ban on cluster bombs, akin to the prohibition of antipersonnel mines adopted in 1997. Civilians, many of them children, make up 98% of those killed and injured by cluster bombs, Handicap International found. "Military personnel from user countries consider any [environment where cluster bomb attacks have occurred] a minefield, and the claim of disproportionate risk and harm to civilians is unquestionable," said the group, which analyzed the effects of the munitions in 24 countries and regions including Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, and Laos as well as Lebanon. 27% of casualties are children, it said.

Daily casualties from cluster bombs in southern Lebanon have dropped to between two and three per day, from a high of more than three per day in the first month after the war that ended on August 14, Handicap International said. Most injuries or deaths were near houses. Cluster munitions are not banned weapon, but use in civilian areas violates the international ban on the use of indiscriminate weapons.

According to the UN, Israel dropped 90% of the cluster bombs in the last 72 hours of the war, when all parties knew a cease-fire was imminent. Farmer and father of five Hussam Murtada has taken no chances, not allowing his children to even play outside. Lurking danger only compounds the residual impact of the war, which killed about 1,200 people in Lebanon, mostly civilians. The Murtada family sat the fight out, unable to afford to leave."The kids are still terrified; they only have to see a plane to start crying and run and hide," he says.

Experts say Israel dropped about 4 million submunitions on Lebanon. More than a quarter failed to explode on impact and have effectively become a multitude of landmines. The bomblets are devastating rural southern Lebanon's economy, which relies on farming. Tobacco, wheat, and fruit rotted in the fields. People were afraid to harvest olives in olive groves and harvest bananas.

The UN says Israel has not provided vital information that would speed up clearance and south Lebanon's safety and recovery. "We have been asking for the grid references and how many were dropped, but we still haven't received them," Farran says. Some of the cluster bombs Israel dropped were Vietnam-era US supplies, increasing the lethal dud-rate, but Landmine Action dismissed arguments that using modern types would solve the problem, pointing out that one such make, the Israeli-made M85, currently littered southern Lebanon. "The massive and widespread use of cluster munitions across southern Lebanon does not seem to accord with any recognizable legitimate military strategy," it said.

Israel also engaged in widespread use of cluster bombs in civilian areas in its 1982 invasion of Lebanon. Israel also used cluster bombs in Lebanon in 1978, 1996 and 2005, the residue of which still kill or maim two people a year, Handicap International said.

From what I saw of both sides, they both like to see their enemies non-combatants in little bits and peices. I had no problem whatsoever motivating myself to point my rifle in either direction. The even more amazing thing is how much more each side would like to turn on its own moderates. They are the only ones I really pitied, because it seems like the only targets anyone could agree on were the peacemakers.

Again, you are incorrect in assuming that Isreal, itself a theocratic state, is a model of how the weapon should be used. The missle is another example, we use guided missles to hit precision targets without causing the widespread destruction of a conventional high explosive area saturation bombing. The Iraqi used their SCUDs like old V1 and V2 rockets to inflict random damage on targets as general as a city (large and easily plotted, even by unskilled losers). One uses technology to reduce casualites, the other to inflict some at random. Its not the tool, its the user.