A bit about Tala

Note: Opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone. Some of the ideas expressed here are controversial and question some established notions. I advise you to think this through and draw your own conclusions.

Certain songs by muttusvAmi dIkhsitar are labeled as tiSra tripuTa (3+2+2) or miSra Eka (7) in authentic texts like the sangIta sampradAya pradarshini, but are sung in miSra cApu (3.5*2=7) nowadays. Similarly many songs of Tyagaraja are labeled in older texts as jhampa, implying miSra jhampA (7+2+1), but are sung nowadays in khaNDa cApu (2+3). There are also some songs in Adi tiSra gati (8*3=24) which are sung in rUpaka cApu (3*4*2), or tiSra Eka (3*4*2).

Now some questions.

Is it really not right to sing a tiSra triputA song in miSra cApu as many rasikas may believe by default? Is it a corruption as some claim? Or is miSra cApu really the same as tiSra tripuTa?

From a carnatic music classicism and tradition point of view, it would be pointless to argue about the “corruption, not right” sentiment, as it can be personal and subjective. But let us ask this from a more scientific standpoint: Does the tala itself impose a mandatory, unavoidable, influence on the melody? Thus, does changing the tala as above affect the melody itself?

I have not always answered as such, but my answer now is No.

I used to think that talas like tiSra tripuTa and miSra cApu are really two different animals in terms of their effect of melody, and while they can be equated only in some cases, any equivalence beyond that is contrived.

However, now I think that from a strict rhythmic standpoint, they are fully equivalent, and thus cannot affect the rhythm and the melody of the rendition itself. While I do not deny that the concept of tala may have helped people to come up with sophisticated rhythmic concepts, I do not think it is the only means to sophisticated rhythms, even the precise ones we find in carnatic music. I think that may shock many 🙂 ! I will at least try to explain why I think so by first elaborating on why I think tiSra tripuTa and miSra cApu are fully equivalent and hence equally effective in keep time for the same song.

Read on (warning: gets technical)

Consider tiSra tripuTa. It has 7 aksharas divided as a 3 count laghu (beat + two finger counts), plus a 4 count dhrutam (beat + wave + beat + wave). Let us assume catuSra gati. Now, what does this mean? It means that if one were to divide one cycle of the tala into equal parts, you will come up a number that is an evenpower-of-2 multiple of 7. In other words, if one were to fill a cycle of talas with swaras/sollus which all have the same duration in time, you end with with “n” swaras/sollus where “n” is a evenpower-of-2 multiple of 7 (7,14,28,56 etc.).

Note: In western terminology, if the cycle is filled up as all whole notes, or all half-notes, or all quarter notes, you will use “n” notes, where n in an evenpower-of-2 multiple of 7. Of course in reality, carnatic melodies are not “monotonous” like this in terms of how they fill the cycle. But we take the simplest case here to illustrate our point.

Let us consider 3 such divisions:

(i) 7 swaras/sollus. Each swara/sollu spans the duration of 1 akshara. We will use the sollu pattern ta-ki-Ta ta-ka-dhi-mi here.

ta ki Ta | ta ka | dhi mi ||
s r g | s r | g m ||
B L L B W B W

(Note: B is beat, L is finger-count part of a laghu, W is wave)

(2) 14 swaras/sollus. Each swara/sollu spans the duration of 1/2 akshara. We will use the sollu pattern ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta ta-ka-dhi-mi ta-ka-ju-Nu (6+4+4) for the 14 sollus.

(3) 28 swaras/sollus. Each swara/sollu spans the duration of 1/4 akshara. We will use the sollu pattern ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta-ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta ta-ka-dhi-mi-ta-ka-ju-Nu ta-ka-dhi-mi-ta-ka-ju-Nu (12+8+8) for representing the 28 sollus.

If e.g. we assume that each akshara in a particular rendition takes 1 second, then in all three cases, the cycle takes 7 seconds. In the first case, each swara/sollu spans 1 second, in the second, 0.5 seconds and in the third, 0.25 seconds.

Mapping to miSra cApu
Now if to we were map these to miSra cApu in a equivalent way, we can do it as such

Inferences
Basically in each case, the swaras/sollus of one cycle of tiSra tripuTa can be represented exactly by 1 or 2 cycles of miSra cApu. In the first case, there is a exact one-one correlation, but this case is pretty rare in krithis, and really appears only in geethams. In the next two cases, 1 cycle of tiSra tripuTa maps to 2 cycles of miSra cApu, this is found in krithis.

We should highlight that in the end, for each case, the same number of swaras/sollus are executed in the same duration with both talas. The only difference is that the “time keeper” i.e the tala counted up to that duration differently. It is like to add up to 70 cents/paisas, one added up 50+10+10 (and further the 50 as 10+10+10+10+10), but other added as 15+10+10+15+10+10. In the end the value is the same – the internal divisions are different.

However, there seems basically no reason to believe that the internal divisions of these talas should necessarily impose any mandatory influence on the melody itself i.e. in particular how the melody itself is “sub-divided” into swaras of various duration. To bolster this, take the case of certain songs that are sung in both Adi tiSra gati as well as rupaka “pretty much similarly” – as in unlike other songs whose laya itself has a tiSra (triplet) gait, these songs have a more of a a standard catuSra gait. Here again this is like one adding up to 24 cents/paisas as 3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3 vs. 4+4+4+4+4.

In fact, going further, one could have effectively mapped the above for miSra Eka (1+1+1+1+1+1+1 = 7), khaNDa rUpaka ( 5+2= 7), catuSra jhampa (4+2+1 = 7). One can render the same song as effectively in all these talas. It is not just a question of miSra cApu vs. tiSra tripuTa for me. All these 7 unit case talas are equally effective. Sure keeping tala with one vs. other may pose challenges for us, but it is a problem with us humans, it really has no effect on the inherent melody of the song itself which may or may not align with the tala. For example, many Adi songs no necessarily align with the angas (internal parts) of Adi.

Conclusion
This is the reason why I believe, tala is not integral to determining the rhythm of the melody itself. While the concept of tala has no doubt proven to be very useful in rhythm of carnatic music (in helping composers set rhythm etc.), it is a key to the treasure i.e. rhythm/laya, and not the treasure itself. It is a useful tool to chisel a product, but still it is only the tool, and not the product.

I may be wrong, but in Carnatic Music, one aspect where we have paid too much importance to the role of the tala is w.r.t its internal structure. This is what that leads us to notions like why a song in say Adi shouldn’t really be kept in khaNDa jhampa since it would somehow runs against the core of the rhythm of that song, and thus unnatural. This, in spite of similar evidences to the contrary (e.g. rUpaka and tiSra Eka effectively used for Adi tiSra gati). Like I said, I think there is no reason to not treat all 8 beat cycles (+ the 4-beat catuSra Eka) as equivalent w.r.t to how equally effective they can be in helping maintain rhythm of a song.

In fact, if we really look at it, keeping tala itself (for the song portion), is an aid, just like tampura is an aid to establish and maintain sruthi. Of course both have evolved in their roles (e.g. tala being very important in pallavis) but their core role is as an aid to more important aspects of music – sruthi and laya. And I think those aspects of music are fully defined on their own, and not in terms of these aids.

Update: There is a companion post to this one: A bit about Tala – himAdri sutE. It is based on the (very technical) discussion that went on in the comment section below.

Arun,
Alright 🙂
I will confine myself only to Dikshitar kRtis. With Dikshitar’s compositions it is clear that he has only used the 35 talas just as we can surmise he restricted himself to the asampUrna mela paddhati. Desadi, and certain types of eduppus simply did not fit in with his musical scheme of things. It is this aspect that one says when one talks of ‘authentic’; schools and not in the sense of an ‘authenticer-than-thou’. So this in itself precludes the TT vs MC/KC discussion IMO.

Arun: Vidya, my point is this: Let us say, someone says that a performance of a song originally in tiSra tripuTa is rendered in MC is “not authentic”. We ask why, and their reason is because it “does not adhere to the composer’s tala”. Then this is barking up the wrong tree *if* the melody of the song (and thus the rhythm built into the song) remains the same. What do I mean by remains the same? Let us say that the pallavi line was notated in SSP to takes a total of n swaras (not all equal duration of course). Then the only thing that matters for the melody to be “true to SSP” is that performers deliver those n swaras with their relative durations exactly as per notation. What tala he/she put while delivering is pretty much (i would even say completely) irrelevant as that is simply an aid to deliver those n swaras correctly. I could argue that a performer can do so while putting TT, or MC or khanDa rUpaka etc.

You could also argue that just because one switches from TT to MC, one automatically must change pace for it. To me, that simply indicates a human flaw – not necessarily universal to every one, and one that does not automatically follow from the change. If a TT songs’s pallavi line say takes 20 seconds, or 30 seconds – one should be able to render it in the same duration no matter the tala is kept. The important thing is that the “n” swaras that make up the line are delivered with their correct relative duration at the “appropriate pace” (which of course is subjective – but I meant vilambita if that is what is called for)

Second in the following case the mathematical and aesthetic possibility would be exactly the same and have no change. So in particular cases what you state is true.

– Jhampa tala vs khaNda Eka in dvikaLai

A few other thoughts in random order:

You have used ta-ki-ta syllables to illustrate your point. However a composition is not just that.There are other factors that impact a composition such as mArga of a composition and its mAtu laya.

By mAtu laya is meant the following:

In a number of compositions, some composers have chosen the number of sahitya aksharas to correspond to the swaras. The word vI-NA might have two dIrgha svaras but never an odd-even swara-sahitya spread,

– For example if you consider vAtApi gaNapatim’s notation the number of swaras per mAtra is two .So stretching and shortening of swaras and syllables directly impact those type of compositions that are finely-crafted with respect to these elements.

– Again , if you consider shrImahAgaNapatiravatumAm if rendered in atichitratama mArga , ie there is one swara in one unit of a tala. This also directly impacts how the composition sounds and the percieved effect of kAlapramANa variation.

– Finally another important aspect is that typically chApu tends to speed up the kAlapramANa of a song.

To summarize, something might be a logical or mathematical possibility and there might be vocalists who can render composition X in talas A thru Z. But it does not mean that they are all aesthetically equivalent considering all of the above. And by the word aesthetics here I do not mean the relative aesthetics of ‘what is pleasing to my ear or the vague sounds-good stuff’ but more in line with:
– What are the general characteristics of the compositions of a particular composer?
– What are the elements that differentiate composer A from composer B.

Arun: Again Vidya, I am not talking about the case where a switch in tala *with* a change in melody to fit it (or so – one could presume). That is different and indeed is reinterpretation (and it has indeed happened). But it is not a necessary and foregone outcome of changing the tala. Like I said you take a TT song where one line is 7 swaras or 17 swaras or any – a performer should be able render it exactly the same way with relative durations intact, but keeping MC. Tala itself does not determine laya.

1) Since MD is known as a stickler to then then existing tradition and scholarship, let us grant for now that he restricted his thala repertoire to the 35 thalas. So that takes the TT vs MC discussion a moot point. Let us stipulate it that way for now.

2) I am interested in learning more about mArga and mAtu laya.

3) If we reverse engineer the built in laya of MD’s compositions, can we derive what importance he gives to the angas of thalas. To me, that is a more intriguing aspect.
In other words, when MD notates something as Misra Eka, is that deliberate enough that he really means it and specificaly excludes Thisra Triputa. We can then ask what factors are used to distinguish between the two.

4) As a generalization of 3, though thalas are defined with respect to their angas, the semantics of the angas are not usually defined. We are trying to infer that from the compositions. That may be the reason for our troubles. I am hoping that concepts like mArga and mAtu laya etc. may shed some light on independently defining the semantics

5) Restricting it to MD’s compositions may be fruitful. We know Thyagaraja was quite innovative in structuring his laya in his compositions. So even if an Anga semantics existed, it may not apply to Thyagaraja’s compositions. ( can not comment on SS’s compositions though he is a stawart in laya as well )

Perhaps you are missing my point. Let me be very clear
* I was not saying MD really composed in MC and not in TT etc. or nobody should give a hoot about the real tala the composer penned down a song in.
* I am also not saying that the structure of a tala did NOT influence MD or other composers. (I believe tala internal structures originally related to sloka meters – basically related the length of the words, the relative duration of syllables etc. Nothing revolutionary – i think this is already known. I also believe once used in music, laya went beyond all that. But this is tangential)

All I am saying is you can deliver a TT song exactly as it is indeed by MD, but keeping tala in MC or misra eka, or khanda rupaka or catusra jhampa. How a musician keeps tala is not really not as important as bringing out a pre-composed song with the intended laya. Tala is an aid to bring the laya. While it was a tool used to construct the laya of a song, and putting tala in the one the composer jotted down continues to aid people in bringing out that laya in that song, that particular tala is by no means mandatory or absolutely indispensible to bring out the laya of the song.

So again, if someone sings SrI mahAgaNapati ravatumAm in miSra cApu but delivers it exactly as per SSP (as in the swaras are delivered with their respective durations as noted in notation intact), then the claim “this is not right, this is not kosher” remains the “from tradition point of view”. Now that is still a valid argument for a person to make based on his/her convictions about traditions etc. But to me it is a purely personal matter, and IMO (i.e. from my personal perspective) also misguided.

But to claim that ONLY if you keep TT, you will be able to do true justice to the intended melody of the song – that I do not agree with and as I can clearly see putting TT as simply an aid to keep track of what is the established melody of the song

Actually I agree with you on those points for the most part. I definitely agree that many talas can be kept for the same rendition without causing any issues. I also agree that laya is internal to the song and tala is an external marker/measure and is an abstraction.
One analogy that helps me is fractals. If a coastline of 4+2+2 straight inches are measured, that is the tala level. But we know that the details of a coastline, the laya part, are much richer than that. Anyway, that analogy only takes you so far.

The question is, when I measure 4+2+2, why am I measuring it in three parts, instead of one straight 8 inches. Why does that detail figure in the abstraction. You are saying that comes from lyrical and prosodic meters. I did not know that. Are there poetic meters that parallel the 7 types of talas?Arun: The words “guru” etc for meter stuff exists in sloka lingo if I am not mistaken. I am not well versed but I remember running into it in some discussion regarding a some sloka tradition. I could be mistaken. Maybe Vidya knows more to comment as to whether this adds up to any significance or not.

I guess what I am saying is, though one can keep using any of the equivalent thalas, we can not say it is right or wrong because a well defined semantics of the angas do not exist or not described. Had that existed, then we can rationally say if one thala structure is a better abstraction of the laya of a particular song or not. ( It will at least be at the same debatable level as to which mela raga a janya belongs in ambigous cases ). I am also asking if such a pre-defined semantics exists or not. If not, then you are on much firmer grounds. Do you agree that this is related to the key point of your blog article?Arun: Not quite. My (bolder 😉 ) point is
even if you can say unambiguously one tala fits/represents the laya of a song best, I would argue that a musician can deliver that song exactly the same in a different tala (or even puts that tala differently like how different people put MC differently), or no tala. And there is nothing wrong in it from a musical standpoint (tradition etc. – that is a different argument) as long as the rendition stays the same.

Let us represent the melody of a line of a sequence of swaras (with approp intonation) of specific (but varying) durations. ALL aspects of musicality of that line in melody is fully defined there itself. That you “it is in a tala” or “you keep a tala” are from a strict musical standpoint extraneous – perhaps refections/remnants of the creative process.

Let me use an extreme example. Assume there exists a thala with just a drutham. In addition to that, I add the semantics. “The first beat represents a major stress and the second beat represents a minor stress”. Assume composers compose with that semantics in mind. In fact, to me, Desadi thala songs follow such a simple laya structure. Now, you can keep thala to it with absolutely no relationship between the two beats. That will work. But we lose something since that way of keeping thala does not recognize the semantics. Put another way, if I am asked to keep the thala “properly” in the middle of a song, I can do that because I can sense the major and minor stresses in the song and align my thala keeping to that.Arun: But why should the tala you keep have to align with the melody of the song? Like I said, from the musical standpoint, all it matters are you deliver the melody as it is intended.

Going beyond angas, I want to learn what you feel about another related thing. Would you say the same about these three things as well.

Another thoughtful post – you should replicate some of this stuff in rasikas so that we don’t miss it!

I had a long discussions with VK sometime back on this and my position was largely the same as yours but this time I would like to play the devil’s advocate

The talas are not just multiples of a certain time interval chosen by the artiste. The melody of the song is intricately interwoven with the tala. Some exammples – 1) Thyagaraja’s rendankaalam idam krithis of which practically every 2-kalai adi tala krithi is an example 2) Syama sastris hidden tisram in Sankari Sankuru/Himadri Suthe 3) Deekshitar’s delightful Tisra Eka. In each of these krithis, the tala has been manipulated masterfully to enhance the impact of the song.

What choosing the “wrong” tala would do, is to get the mrudangist emphasizing the wrong stress points (since they are “trained” to emphasize certain parts of the tala like the Ardhi, veechu in M Chapu etc.). Sankari Sankuru can theoretically be played in Rupakam – indeed, that is the way it is taught to some beginners – but the brilliance of the layam will get completely pbliteratedArun: I really do not think putting talam has ANY bearing on the laya built into the melody of these songs itself (see below for the comment on the mridangist – you have a point, but this doesnt directly oppose the point I am trying to get across) That it may mess a certain performer is a different issue and this can vary from person to person. You ask smt. suguna purushottaman and she will put X tala in catusra gati in one hand, and put Y tala in tisra gati in another song, while singing a song in tala Z!!! Sure she is a wiz in this – but the point again is the belief that say a TT song can be rendered effectively (as intended) ONLY if tala is put in TT – that I think is overblown.

It may also indicate the wrong speed – choosing Khanda Chapu instead of 2 kalai KHanda Eka will almost certainly mess up Hariharaputram…it may be an interesting variation on the pallavi once but throughout the krithi, it would be a nuisance.Arun: Mess up in what way? The melody itself? I think it need NOT. Again in one case e.g. you are counting as 8+8+8+8+8 = 40 say. In the other you are simply counting to 40 as 5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5. Keeping tala need have no impact on the melody per-say.

The point is this – tala is not only a device to keep time…it is also a signal to the rhythm department which may or may not be aware of the tempo/stress structure of the krithi. There are standard tricks of the trade for every tala – interchanging them could cause havoc even if the the talas in questions share a common divisor.Arun: This I agree. But think again. You are making the case from an *external cue point of view* only. My point is that – it is an external cue only. Not something “in the song itself”. The point is to execute the melody which has its own laya built in, its own stress points. Now, if the mridangist knows the song (or say knows the precise melody of a performer), he may need no visual indicator to “play for the song”.

You wrote “but the point again is the belief that say a TT song can be rendered effectively (as intended) ONLY if tala is put in TT – that I think is overblown.”. I agree 100%. Not just overblown but just plain ‘does not apply’ since you are talking about the singer’s point of view. I am also with you on the fact that layam is built into the song and it is not external.

So, at one level, ‘no thala’ also is also fully adequate to render a song, you do not need thala itself. So this is like Nihilism philosophy on thala.Arun: Yes. From this angle, you do not need thala itself to render a song. One can go further and say the concept of thala itself with angas is not *mandatory* to compose a song with say a 14-beat cycle with some times stress points falling on 6th, 11th etc. But that does not mean it is not useful for all the uses it has been put to so far (composing, delivery). I hope I have stressed that difference enough.

Having said that, are you still keeping these following concepts?

1) Concept of a beat and the regularity of it with equal spaced intervals. I realize you do not impose such a thing on the laya which is fine, but I want to know if you are discarding the beat itself.Arun: No I am not abandoning the concept of “beat” per-say – just saying that is an underlying concept of rhythm i.e. rhythm of the melody itself. Tala is external to it.
But I am not viewing the beat as “regularity of it with equal spaced intervals” as you put it. Maybe I am misunderstanding you. But let us take a catusra ekam as in 4×4 = 16. Now if by “regularity of it with equal spaced intervals” are you implying that 16 be arrived at only using 2,4,8 and 16 (or if we take 4*8 = 32, that 32 is arrived at only using 2,4,16 and 32)? If so, I say no. For the 16, you could
could do 5+3+5+3 or 3+4+4+4+2 say as follows:

5+3+5+3 (say srgrg srg rgmpm gmp)
7+3+4+2 (say pda ndpm dpmg mpg rs )

In fact, songs do do that. These will not align to the beat “imposed” by the catusra-eka. If you have two lines of this song that go as above, what is the beat here?

2) Concept of a sub-beat.Arun: Still there. It is there in the laya of the melody. But the beat, sub-beat I think is not as monotonous (or regular or ordered or well behaved) as implied by the tala (?)

3) Concept of an avarthanamArun: Still there. It is there too in terms of how long the lines are, and to make sure lines of different parts of song (or say different parts of the song) are rendered in the same duration – atleast in cm, this is important. Even in WM, you have songs that are 4*4, 5*4 etc. – those are sort of like different avartanams – right?

( Of course, composer can do anything they want, but we are restricting ourselves to CM compositions that are in vogue ).

Quick response on Hariharaputram before I rush off to a meeting! Hariharaputram largely fellows beats of 4 Ha(4) Ri(4) Ha(4) Ra (4) Putram (6+2) which is well aligned with 2 kalai Khanda Eka …

If you play Khanda Chapu sollus to this, you will co-incide with the tala cycle mathematically, but it will be extremely irritating if done throughout the krithi (as a variation it may be interesting though)Arun: And taxing as well 🙂

Once again it is only as an indication to the mrudangist that this would be a problem. If the mrudangist is familiar with the krithi, I completely agree that the manner in which tala is kept in redundant and only a reference point for oneself…Arun: And that is pretty much my main point.

Also I really doubt is certain Deekshitar krithis in M Chapu were really set in any other Tala.

Take Akshaya Linga Vibho – a classic 4th matra take off that would lose all its elegance in Tisra Triputa or Misra Ekam (it would be a 3/4 eduppu).

Ananda Natana Prakasham can be accommodated a little better in Tisra Triputa but “Natana”, which beautifully falls into the Veechu of Misra Chapu would become an ungainly Arai Idam in Tisra Triputa but there is a certain cross-rhtyhmic effect that may actually be interesting.

arun: Vijay, the “show” of putting tala that we rasikas (including mua) “perform” today is completely irrelevant to the music itself! I am certain Nick would agree here 😉 There is no such thing as ‘that emphasis in the song at that point’ is beautiful only if the singer matches it with a veechu 🙂 !!! To put it bluntly, this pseudo dance is a side-show 🙂 Even when there is real-dance to this music (i.e bharatanatyam), they concentrate on the actual laya of the song (i.e. how the sub-parts of the line are grouped in a line i.e. the actual laya and put steps to that) – they pay little heed to the internal structure of the tala.

Of course you can keep M Chapu-speed time in Tisra Triputa but that would probably be even worse!Arun: Again, there is no such thing as a m-chapu speed time that is by default faster than tisra-triputa. There is no inherent tempo for any tala. It is just a reflection of practice. You can have a jet speed 1-kalai Adi song by GNB, which is rendered in slower 1-kalai (not 2-kalai) by MDR. There are fast M-chapu songs and slow M-chapu songs. Granted that slowing down M-chapu to a craw seems unnatural but that is a reflection of our conditioning and not anything inherent in the tala itself. From a rhythmic standpoint there is NOTHING that says the 7 sub-beats of M-chapu cannot be rendered drawn out. At the core, this is just 7 beats grouped as 3+4.

Net, net, I can’t really imagine any sane composer setting these 2 songs to any tala other than Misra Chapu

Arun, the tala is a side-show, agreed…but once again I have to go back to my tiresome refrain –

the way a mrudangist would play for the veechu is unique and adds to the beauty.Arun: I argue that the mrudangist is really playing for the emphasis in the song and not for the vichu. For example, not every vichu is going to match to an emphasis in songs (songs will be very monotonous for our conditioning) – and a mridangist cannot afford to play it based on tala. He plays for the song i.e. he plays to the laya of the song.

A mridangist plays for a song “best” if he knows the song. Otherwise, yes tala certainly can help him do a fair job – i.e. the chances of him providing the right emphasis at the right times is higher. But he is not going to get it right 100% of the time. Tala keeping is certainly useful in practice cannot be argued against, but the reasons are due to conventions (most performance being extemporious etc.) and not anything else. But look at how they play in kalpanaswara – until they get the pattern they play “neutral” – I say they dont even pay attention to tala (as in anga). Once they figure the pattern of a korvai, they play for the pattern in the korvai and again tala and its angas are pretty much out of the picture. The best, most effective accompaniment IMO comes when the mridangist knows the laya of the melody – and he plays to that. And lot of times, in krithis as well as extempre parts like kalpana swara, this laya doesnt has a very-loose to no relationship with the tala’s internal structure

It is not far fetched to presume that the composer had this in mind while setting conceptualizing the song.Arun: I did not imply this. In all probability, tala did influence composers. It is device used to create melodies with rhythm. I am not denying that. But tala implies a “regulality, order” to the rhyhm (i.e. same internal structure every avarthanam), which obviously krithis do not follow throught. As vk puts it (in his next comment), laya itself is way more varied than what is implied by the visible kriyas shown as we put tala

If you play Tisra Triputa to Akshaya Linga Vibho, at the same speed as Misra Chapu (i. e 4 aksharas to a beat), the effect will be awkward as described above because of the 3/4 eduppu.
One way of getting around it would be to increase the (regular) speed of Tisra Triputa to match with one avarthanam of Misra Chapu..but then that is the same as Misra Chapu.Arun: It will be awkward only if the mridangist is playing to the tala keeping and not to the laya of song itself, which they sort of do now anyway. Tala keeping is helpful for them to keep “to keep track” no doubt, but “to know what to play”. There is really no need to adjust tempo “to fit a tala”.

In a sense, I suppose, the Kalai does make a difference…in 1 Kalai (Misra Chapu) you would typically emphasize matras 1,4,7 and 11…in Tisra Triputa, you would normally emphasize the 1,5,9 etc. This is totally related to the conditioning of mrudangists (and vocalists) but it is a practical issue one has to contend with.Arun: While the emphasis does fall in those places often, it also does not fall on those enough times to make me think otherwise

1) Regarding beat-sbubeat, based on your example, you want regularlly spaced sub-beats and not regularly spaced beats. If there are no regularly spaced beats, then essentially there are not beats.Arun: I am not sure I understand. My point was that song emphasis points, syllable divisions do not necessarily always match with the beat demarcations implied by tala.

2) If that is true, I do detect a ‘small hole’ in this radical system 🙂 This is not for the anga but for the beat. You are counting on the layam of the song to carry you through. But when there are long pauses in the song ( like between pallavai and anupallavi, and anupallavi and charanam etc. ) where the layam of the song is not there, you need something independent of it. So the song has to communicate a fixed interval sub-beat or a fixed interval beat so we can still keep count during the silence intervals.Arun: Maybe you misunderstood. I did not say layam has no beat, sub-beat. I am simply saying they are not always necessarily grouped as per the tala structure, or what is conveyed by the tala structure.

3) The above hole is much smaller or even non-existent, if you do not provide any significance to the practise that pallavi, anupallavi etc start at the beginning of the avarthanam and say that is not really a part of rendering a krithi.

4) Though I agree that strictly for rendering a song, the external beat keeping is not necessary and the built in layam is all one needs, I think the idea of the thala ‘as an external abstract representation of the internal laya’ is still valid. ( I do not think you disagree with that, but please clarify ). Laya patterns are numerous and so it is hard to codify. So what they may have done is to abstract out the common details and turn it to a Thala with the anga structure. Abstraction, by definition, is only approximate but it provides a bunch of benefits as we all know. It gives the composer a tool to start at the ‘gross thala’ level to build in the detailed layam. There are also laya templates that are commonly overlaid on Thala templates. So it has been useful in that sense. Here the angas do matter in that abstract representation of the laya. Second, for the performers and the rasikas, the same abstract representation is use ful as a ‘mile marker’.

But the problem is, over time, the importance to the abstract representation has grown too much to the extent that it is forgotten that it is an abstraction and not the reality ( laya ) itself. And the second thing that is missing in the Rhythm theory is: Whenever you create classes by abstraction, you leave out a lot of details. But the details have to described somewhere else, at least as examples. This is all well known in the field of epistemology. Those laya pattern details are not codified anywhere.

If you buy into this sequence of development, we can fold in what Vijay has been saying. If the composer had a thala in mind while building the laya pattern, then using another thala for that laya pattern is unnatural.Arun: Yes based on general human tendencies. For example, it will hard to put say tiSra gati Adi for every rUpakam song. I am not necessarily arguing that – one can with ease do this in every case. For some cases, it can be easy, for some extremely hard, and this can change from person person.

Again, repeating, all I am saying that IF someone puts it, it does NOT mean melody of the song is changes. But yes, it CAN confuse mridangist and violonist. But if they play for the tune, they may not get as confused also.

And you can feel it aesthetically. Since there are no ‘classical’ rules, all we are left with is to build that model from existing compositions like what Vijay is trying to do ( Which I also try to do, but without much progress to show ).

Arun: I have moved beyond the issue of the thala keeping aspect. Meaning, we agree on that point fully, especially when we do not consider human difficulties and consider only the mridangist’s job of accompanying ( and dancer ) the artist. In fact, Balaji mentioned something interesting at rasikas that the patterns they play are called ‘Aasu’ and they come from many tyagaraja compositions. He did not explain it in detail, I have never heard of that before that but the impression I got is exactly what we are talking about here. The ‘Aasu’ is about laya and not the thalam.

OK, going beyond the thala keeping aspect, do you agree that it still makes sense to have a ‘descriptive and prescriptive model’ for the laya however abstract/approximate it is? If so, do you agree that the current thala with the anga structure was an attempt at that. So, if someone asks a composer outside of a performance context ‘What kind of rhythm do you employ in your song’. Instead of him saying ‘I start with a non-emphasis, then there are 5 syllables then a major stress there, then 3 syllables and a minor stress…..’. he can simply say ‘It is a AdithaPanchaksharaTriakshara layam’ in the first line of the pallavi and ‘SamaTriaksharaPanchakshara layam’ in the second line.. etc. etc. ( I just made this up ). There can be 1000 such descriptions of layam which can get quite unwieldly. A higher level abstraction is a thala with an anga structure which takes these 1000 laya patterns into 35 classes to which these 1000 can be forcefitted. Then for the same question he can simply say ‘The layam is in a class of layams called Chathusra Jati triputa’. So much detail of the laya oriented definition is lost in that process of generaization and I guess that is what we are dealing with today. People are given the generalization and we hold on to it as reality when the performers ( singers, percussion, dancers ) can not deal with that generalization, they need to get to the laya level detail.Arun: I certainlu agree. Tala definitely has proved to be useful. As you say using a single label, loses detail and maybe implies certain notions which may not exactly be true. Even in western music, when they say 4×4 – it doesnt mean they have to go to the equiv of “ta-ka-di-mi ta-ka-di-mi” ad-nauseum (although many popular songs do do so!).

Just for kicks, what if some one says to that question: “catusra gati – 8 aksharas is the rhythm”.

Note that this answer is like 8×4 just like western music (actually). Here x4 doesnt necessarily mean 4 beat per akshara but “catusra gati based” as in each could be subdivided as 1,2,4,8,16 etc.

Now, how effective is this answer compared to catusra gati, catusra triputa – which sort of implies 4×4 + 2×4 + 2×4)? If, the laya pattern for a Adi song can be as varied as we think that a “catusra tripuTa” label does not cover everything (and thus is more restrictive than perhaps necessary), how significant is the missing extra tala detail?

Paraphrasing your question How much. “8×4” misses compared to “4×4 + 2×4 + 2×4”? Tough to say. I agree that there is a negative with something like “4×4 + 2×4 + 2×4” in that it gives an illusion of a lot of specificity when it really is not. It over-promises and under-delivers. Here the problem is in terms of documentation as to what it really is.

Having said that, “8×4” may be too safe a specification. For example, if a composer does compose with a “”4×4 + 2×4 + 2×4” laya structure with some small variations like eduppu and resting points intentionally, then calling it Adi thala is a very compact representation. So it succeeds there as a good model in terms of knowledge representation. An epistemologist would call it a ‘functional’ model. It leaves out some but does not leave out too much like “8×4”.Arun: yes 8×4 simply says “treat the whole avarthanam as the only demarcation anything goes inside but in multiples of power-of-2”. It doesnt convey much. But I think this is where WM and even HM is.

But consider desadi thala laya structure. It is an over specification to label it as Adi. 8×4 does not capture it, as usual it is too much in its own comfort zone. What will capture more closely as a model is ( 2×4 + 2×4 + 2×4 + 2×4 ).Arun: ? How does this fit? And how is it that different from c.eka? I am thinking desadi has a pentuple at the beginning. Basically the first anga is divided as 1.5+2.5 or 3+5. Also like we discussd earlier, a tiSra maTya with half-a beat eduppu fits better than Adi (still not a great fit).

This still does not capture all the laya details. So we have to add something like “the second 2*4 gets extra emphasis in some songs”. To me, this description captures it closely without adding the burden of an Adi structure and makes an attempt to capture something more than 8×4 . Imagine the relaxed manner in which the numerous attractive desadi thala songs can be performed without having to wait for that mukkal eduppu space to start the sections of the song. To me, that is just not simply a knowledge representation nicely, but also feeds back on the ease of performance also.

Beyond that, things get complicated.

For MD songs, since it is commonly believed he composed with the 35 thala anga structure in mind, we can say, the thala with anga signature is a better representation of the layaArun: Maybe as per SSP. But I think even his songs have morphed over time and are delivered like Tyagaraja’s songs.

For thyagaraja songs: It gets very complicated since his laya patterns are quite varied. But it is not in 1000s. There are probably a dozen classes of non-desadi patterns one can reverse-engineer. Such knowledge representation work is much useful. Even if we continue to call the rhythm by the current thala tag, we can add the laya tag on top of that. The music world will be served very well by that.

Shyama Sastri: I really do not know. He is in his own league and I do not know much about the various laya patterns of his songs to pass any judgement.

>Arun: yes 8×4 simply says “treat the whole avarthanam as >the only demarcation anything goes inside but in multiples of >power-of-2″. It doesnt convey much. But I think this is where >WM and even HM is.

Probably WH but HM has some internal demarcation which has better defined meaning. But HM is not heavily composition based, so a better comparison with HM would be the CM RTP.

Also, in CM layam, there are additive principles involved isn’t it, which is what we do not capture by a 8×4, like you mentioned before that 8 may be split 3+3+2 in one avarthanam and 4+4 in another avarthanam, 5+3 in another avarthanam.

>Arun: How does this fit? And how is it that different from >c.eka? I am thinking desadi has a pentuple at the beginning. >Basically the first anga is divided as 1.5+2.5 or 3+5. Also >like we discussd earlier, a tiSra maTya with half-a beat >eduppu fits better than Adi (still not a great fit).

I should have specified it as (1+1)x4 + (1+1)x4 + (1+1)x4 + (1+1)x4 , this way it is distinct from c.eka. Let me try to explain.

This may be a problem of you and me interpreting the laya differently. Just with stress points at the beat level, I sense desadi songs to be an alternating Major Stress-Minor Stress sequence. The eduppu is not on the stress points. The way it is currently laid on top of Adi, beats 1, 3, 5 and 7 are treated similarly to beats 2, 4, 6 and 8 in terms stress distribution and syllable distribution. So we can cut out all that complexity and consider it as a two count thala ( in chathusra jathi the way you describe it ) and so it really becomes (1+1)x4 + (1+1)x4 + (1+1)x4 + (1+1)x4Arun: Yes I remember your comments about this in rasikas.

Sorry, the statement in the last para above “The way it is currently laid on top of Adi, beats 1, 3, 5 and 7 are treated similarly to beats 2, 4, 6 and 8 in terms stress distribution and syllable distribution”

should actually read

“The way it is currently laid on top of Adi, beats 1, 3, 5 and 7 are treated similarly and beats 2, 4, 6 and 8 are treated similarly in terms stress distribution and syllable distribution”

I think we have reached a broad agreement that the purpose of the tala is to present a loose model of the song’s rhtyhm. The follow-up question would be whether it is an adequate model.

From the discussion between you and Vk, it seems to me that the 35 tala system is, overall, fairly adequate and representative. It gives the composer a menu of broad rhythmic options which can be further customized using his/her imagination.

At the same time, it is also a signalling device to the mrudangist – here, I would like to emphasize that, in a concert situation, there are at least 1-2 pieces that the mrudangist is not too conversant with. Legends like Palghat Mani Iyer and Musician-mrudangists like Srimushnam are obviously notable exceptions but I do happen to know that many mrudangists wing it based on their knowledge of the taala and broad rhythmic structures. Very few mrudangists are completely familiar with stress structures of compositions – this is a practical situations that the tala (and its baggage of conventions which cannot be fully summarized/noatated) solves…1) By the composer anticipating what a mrudangist is likely to play in the tala and 2)The mrudangist dutifully dishing out the standard wares in the tala.

Arun: Vijay, like vk mentions in the next comment, I highly doubt that the mridangists pay attention to the angas etc. anything more than to know “where in the avarthanam that the song is in”. For a song they don’t know, I think for each sangati, they play more-or-less neutral the first time, at which time they get the rhythmic structure of the line (which again may or may-not match the angas, and thus relying on angas is unreliable), and when the line is repeated again, they are able to play for it. They do pay attention to the eduppu of the line/section (songs do not always maintain same eduppu throughout although), as a way of knowing “which place in the avarthanam” is the demarcation etc.

Vijay, on your point about the use of the thala for Mridangists in accompanying an artist for a composition, the key point of course is, do the anga structure help the mridangist ‘wing’ it. So, by definition, the winging will work only for those compositions that are built with the anga structure as the predominant laya theme. In such cases, it is true by definition, sort of tautalogic. But Arun’s fundamental claim is that compositions vary widely in their laya structure and they do not have not much correlation to the anga structure. ( other than possibly a Purvanga/Uttaranga split ). If you buy into that thesis, then the winging mridangist would not be a good accompaniment.

I mentioned before about Balaji mentioning about Aasu. That is clearly a detailed laya oriented method rather than an anga-structure oriented technique. So composers do use templated laya patterns. Except they do not mirror the anga structure.

Just as an addendum to the previous comment, there are two fundamental questions..

1) Do the existing compositions of great composers built on the anga structure predominantly?Arun: While I have no evidence. I think cm evolved way beyond angas. Thus in compositions, the rhythm structure go beyond them – not to the point that they are completely disregarded, but enough variety. It is quite possible that at the initally when a tune comes into mind to a composer, his/her conditioning makes him/her map to a tala that fits to the tune (the fit being variable from roughly-fits to an exact-fit). So from that point, the demarcation of the anga does play a fuzzy role in cm composition process. But as we have seen, composers do not view angas as specific markers that they must comply to, but merely as hints which they “may use”.

You see this even in the earliest gItams. Take kamala jadaLa. Compare the first line (i.e. kamala jAdaLa vimala sunayana) to the second line (karivarada karuManbikE). You see the fit varies.

2) If we say they are, what do we actually mean by that? Where are the semantics of angas documented? I have asked so many people in so many different ways if Angas represent rhythmic stresses. No one is wiling to give a reasonably firm answer to that. But then there may be different rhythm oriented meanings to angas. What are they?

3) Even assuming all this, is it possible to reverse engineer those built in laya patterns on top of the anga semantics?

I think the above three are pre-conditions to be satisfied before we can say if one anga structure is a better fit than another anga structure for a particular rendition of a composition.

Arun I do agree that mrudangists do not play to “angas”…but they do tend to emphasize certain stress points in a given tala and employ standard patterns for a given length of matras. Of course, they would also try and absorb the rhythm of the particular sangathis and latch on to it but the role of conditioning is not to be ignored either. If I were a composer I would probably try and anticipate what the mrudangist is likely to do and try to exploit that…

As always, an example would be useful even if it is an extreme one that I have overused in discussions of this nature

Himadri Suthe referred to above is, as we know, a Tisra Adi krithi with the nadai hidden behind what appears to be straightforward Rupakam. Let us say that our vidwan decides to test our argument and renders it in Rupakam.

It would take a brilliant mind to figure out the hidden nadai – what we would hear from lesser mortals are standard Rupaka Tala phrases – even, god forbid, Takita Takita Takita Takita over one avartha that has become a somewhat hackneyed rhtyhmic phrase in the tala. I suspect that the poor vidwan will switch over to Tisra Adi in the very next avartha 😉

This is not to say that the tala completely describes everything the mrudangist needs to know. A good mrudangist will try and listen to as many krithis as possible and where he is confronted with something novel, pay close attention to the stress structure of the krithi, and even the sangathis. But that the tala plays a useful role in making his job easier, cannot be denied either

Angas do not necessarily reprsent rhythmic stresses although some of them typically do …but this are definitely no rules I am aware of…

VK, I am not saying that mrudangists followed angas. They have a bag of tricks for each tala which may or not correspond with the angas or with each other…so, the intelligent drummer will figure out the stress structures of the krithi/sangathi, reach into his bag and pull out appropriate thingamajigs…

Vijay, in comment 22 above, we are in perfect agreement on the second para and I think Arun is as well. On the first paragraph, the question that still remains is, What are the lyrical, poetic, melodic and rhythmical significance/meaning of angas? If that is not documented, how can we then reasonably even talk about if they are of any significance to the composers, performer, mridangist or the artist?

I do not want to brush that aside since there is so much material about angas going back so many centuries. So I am still holding on to the possibility that its signifiance can be reverse engineered somehow.

And you mentioned earlier..
“they do tend to emphasize certain stress points in a given tala and employ standard patterns for a given length of matras.”

Exactly. And that does not seem to match the angas so as you rightly stated “anga and stress” are not necessarily correlated. But have they correlated enough to say that ‘Stress’ atleast plays a role in defining the semantics of Angas. Give me credit for trying hard by harping on that count 🙂

Vijay, you need to elaborate the himadri sudhe example more. Since we are sort of going in the direction that performers perform songs and not necessary to a specific thala, where is the question of the performer switching thalas. Are you referring to the kriyas so that the perfomer can indicate to the mridangist through sign language that the mridangist should change the pattern? ( that is definitely a worthwhile thing to do but just checking if that is what you meant )

Arun, vk and vijay,
Valid points.The reverse engineering at the moment I feel is impossible. Our theorists dont even define the mArga concept uniformly so its largely a fuzzy area.But I am still mulling over this discussion and rethinking on chApu effectsafter listening to a couple of padams in chApu. Will contribute to this discussion after I collate my thoughts.

VK I must admit my complete ignorance of the history or significance of tala angas so I am unable to contribute there.

As for the Hinadri Suthe example, yes I did mean switch the talas…this was, of course, meant as a joke, that too in a hypothetical situation for one self-respecting vidwan would render Himadri Suthe in Rupakam nor would a mrudangist put up with such an atrocity. It would be like a tennis pro serving under-arm!

The point I was trying to make is – it is possible to sing the song in Rupakam. It would not seem awkward in any way. Most people who are unfamiliar with the krithi would not be able to tell anything is wrong – the song flows in an acceptable manner in Rupaka tala.

But the grandeur of the krithi would be lost to a large extent. The difference is entirely because of the sollus that the mrudangist would play for ruapaka tala v/v tisra adi

Vijay, the main thrust of this discussion is about angas and what their significance is. If you bring in the nadai, yes, it is absolutely significant.for the mridangist to be aware of it ( either by sensing it from the composition or as indicated by the singer ) and play to that nadai.

In fact, some of the bharathanatyam folks do not care much for the thala itself but all they care about is the nadai. Even the pachanadai sections seem to be the same thala and additively they make combinations of 3, 4,5, 7 and 9. The anga structure is fartheset from their mind and for their practise.

As a novice, I find this post very illuminating. Will have to read it multiple times to understand it since I am not educated about Tala. Thanks for posting this. Your knowledge and effort to put up posts on Carnatic are commendable. 🙂

Arun: Thanks Phil. Although I am not surprised by it, I did not actual foresee such a deep technical discussion (among the “usual suspects” on an online cm related forum – i.e. mua included) here. I probably should not have named it as “A bit about Tala” as it is not in the same vein as the earlier “A bit about arohana/avarohana), the latter being not as technical, and is perhaps more easily consumable by all cm rasikas. This one is a heavy read – and even more so for the comments 🙂 !!

You owe us a Tala 101, so that we can absorb the essence of all the gray-matter-output here.

Arun: Sure I will try. Like I said, tala in the sense of mridangam standpoint is something I am well versed in. Also there are some material out there in books – but it can be dry (lot of new terms etc.) I will try to see if I can present a more practical approach.

Arvind, on a lighter one, if you buy into the general vibe of this blog and comments, what is typically provided in Tala 101 is quite obsolete. May be what is needed is Carnatic Music Laya 101 which Arun can do a great job with.

Experimentally if we were to teach someone a song and ask them to render it without the act of putting tala. And then introduce the talaputting activity and see if it makes a difference in rendition. Because once you are acclimatized to tala putting the effect and the pause you give for a thattu seems different than the vocalization you give for another hand movement. Here perhaps lies the answer to these variations.It is more a conditioned response than anything else.Arun: I think this is certainly plays a part. For example, we tend to involuntary attach emphasis (psychologically) to the start of dhrutams – particularly those that start after laghu. This is even in cases where the melody at that point starts “off-beat” (i.e. after the “slap”).

And when people talk of the evolution of the cApu talas they say that they were used in musical traditions like bhajanavalis where the chipla played a role. So when they sang and moved as they sounded the chipla it broke the monotony and generated the desired vocalization effect (call it melodic, tempo or anything else).

Also this concept of vilOma chApu (on rasikas) makes me ask one other question..Why would someone SS or anyone else for that matter come up with the concept of vilOma chApu if the kriyas were insignificant? ie what necessitated the idea of vilOma chApu and the justification that it fits SS compositions better etc.Arun: Yes these are cases where it is more obvious that a composer SS paid attention to internal structure (other one would be his khaNDa jhampa song) – like I mentioned earlier, that tala influenced composers – there is no doubt. How much so i.e. is it in almost every case, is it in every avathana? is it in almost every avarthana etc. are what is called in question. I would certainly think that there are melodies which faithfully adhere to the internals to a specific tala. But like I mentioned, there are more melodies which do not do so. In fact, I am learning jagAnandakArakA now – and boy the way the melody is overlaid across an avartana of Adi 🙂 ! Each charanam is basically ‘its own animal’ in many cases – just happens to in 32/64/96 chunks – so that it aligns at the avarthanam.

Note that one can simply view vilOma chApu as miSra chApu with a different eDuppu – in fact IMO that is what it is – i.e. vilOma chApu is to miSra chApu what dESAdi is to Adi from this standpoint.

Not that it adds anything to this discussion but practically I think it is this act of vocalization that makes the difference.And perhaps this element is built into while notating and teaching compositions.??Arun: Can you clarify? I dont quite follow what you mean

One of the main principles of music (and this is universal, not just isolated to Western or Indian) is the idea of resolution. You create tension through melody, harmony, or rhythm, and resolve it. Too much tension makes music hard to appreciate, but effective use of tension and resolution creates tremendous aesthetic impact in a composition.

As a mridangist and vocalist, I have long struggled with the issue of how to convey to the layperson the importance of alignment to the talam in Carnatic music. More than most music systems I am aware of, layam in CM lives off of tension and resolution, not just ‘catchy beats’. If you do not feel the aesthetic impact of when a song or korvai comes to thalam or comes to the eduppu, then really you are missing the WHOLE POINT of what makes laya in CM special. Sorry if this is a blunt statement, but please take my word for it as a performer. If you do fully understand the importance of this aesthetic component, then you would not have any doubts about why one talam is more appropriate for a song than another talam.

In layperson’s terms, talam has three important components: #beats, points of emphasis, and tempo. To compose a song in a talam is to take all three into account. Just looking at #beats is not enough; to say one talam is a multiple of another and that “the laya of the song is only what is important” loses sight of where that song’s laya came from in the first place. If you have not composed this may not make sense to you, but again, take my word for it: where do you think the composer gets his ideas on how to align the beats of a song? He needs a skeleton. That skeleton is the talam. A song like paridAnamichite is obviously khanda chapu and not misra jhampa, and similarly dakshiNAmurthe is obviously misra jhampa and not khanda chapu, why? Look at how the melody aligns with the emphasis points of the talam. The composer had that talam in mind when he made the song. Others have made this point already in this thread. Looking at things like eduppu makes this even more clear.

Similarly, certain talams have certain conventional accepted tempo ranges. Sure you can put tisra triputa at a warp speed of 140 beats per minute, but it is not done because it’s strained and awkward. Misra chapu is much more appropriate for that tempo. However I will concede this is a more minor point.

Ultimately though, the thing I want to convey to all of you is that talam is not simply an aid or a prop – it is integral to full appreciation of a song. If you cannot maintain talam in your mind or put it with your hands (softly :P) for a song you are listening to, or if you find such an exercise meaningless even after repeated attempts, then you are MISSING OUT on at least half of the laya impact. It is exciting to hear, at every point of a song, how the rhythm dances with the structure of the talam, adhering to it a lot of the time, and deviating occasionally. Such deviations can often be accompanied by appropriate changes in melody and lyrics as well. There is a treasure trove to appreciate here.

too many commentary, finally artists sing only in rupakam adi Mishra capu and khanda chapu and at times ata thala — pls music lessons shuld be well supported with thala lessons as in mridangam…. musician anu