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Topic: How do you deal with being the only person you know who is right? (Read 5090 times)

If you're a convert or not from an Orthodox family, chances are most people you know aren't Orthodox. How do cope with the fact that in your belief system almost everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

For starters, not with that attitude.

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"At the Last Judgment I will not be asked whether I satisfactorily practiced asceticism, nor how many bows I have made before the divine altar. I will be asked whether I fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick, and the prisoner in his jail. That is all I will be asked." - Sv. Maria Skobotsova

Try to remember these passages from the Philokalia (there are similar ones in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers)...

"He who loves God lives the angelic life on earth, fasting and keeping vigils, praying and singing psalms and always thinking good of every man." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Texts on Love, 1.42

"Love for God always aspires to give wings to the intellect in its communion with God; love for one’s neighbor makes one always think good thoughts about him." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Texts on Love, 4.40

"When the intellect is moved by love for its neighbor, it always thinks well of him; but when it is under diabolic influence it entertains evil thoughts about him." - St. Thalassios the Libyan, On Love, Self-control and Life in Accordance with the Intellect, 3.80

"When you approach the frontiers of dispassion - attaining a right view of God and the nature of things, and according to your growth in purity ascending to the Creator through the beauty of His creatures - you will be illumined by the Holy Spirit. Entertaining kindly feelings about all men and always thinking good of all, you will look on all as pure and holy and will rightly esteem things both human and divine." - Nikitas Stithatos, On the Practice of the Virtues: One Hundred Texts, 90

It is easier to see the sickness and what lacks in the lives of others as a Christian because our spiritual eyes are opening, not that we should judge and condemn our brothers but so that we can be critical of ourselves. After all, if we judge ourselves than our loving Father needs not judge us harshly.

You will find, that as you come closer to God and enter His church you will grow beyond this rudimentary way of looking at things and begin (through love of God and your brother) learning that TRUTH from God can be learned by observing everyone and everything. You will learn about yourself from others, even from those of another faith or a seemingly unsavory lifestyle.

For now, only turn those eyes in and if you can not yet see Christ in everyone around you, at least silently pray for those you judge and understand that you have much to learn.

If you're a convert or not from an Orthodox family, chances are most people you know aren't Orthodox. How do cope with the fact that in your belief system almost everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

Would seem to be difficult not to go into that state of the Pharisee which Jesus described here:

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To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” Luke 18:9-14 (NIV)

I find myself frequently thinking like the Pharisee on this forum quite often..

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Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity

I'm Orthodox because I believe it is true, not because I can use it as a cudgel against those who aren't. I think it was Abba Isaac of the Cells (or it might have been one of the other saints by the name Isaac) who said that humility brings us to the realization that we have done nothing good before God. And, as we already know, humility is the greatest of the virtues, which destroys all the snares of the devil.

So I think it is more important (and more difficult) to cultivate humility than to cultivate a sense of rightness relative to other people you were just as ignorant as in your own past.

To more directly answer your OP: I pray for them, no differently than how I pray for myself. I may be Orthodox already while they are not, but I still pray that we all be guarded and guided, as Orthodoxy is still a choice to be reaffirmed, particularly in light of the fact that I am surrounded by so many non-Orthodox (and even anti-Christian) influences in my own life. So I pray that God have mercy on us all and save us, and lead us on the path that leads to salvation. What better way is there to handle the reality of being an Orthodox convert in a non-Orthodox family/environment? As my priest often reminds me, honoring my father is a commandment, not a suggestion.

everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

For starters, not with that attitude.

It isn't an attitude, it's Orthodox ecclesiology.

But Orthodoxy was not your idea. Orthodoxy might be the truth but we all are fundamentally deficient in every ways and those you judge to be wrong might be a lot better people and better Christians than you are.

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

By trying your hardest to live the right way in accordance with the Church in hopes that you will be like the lamp on the hillside that will convert them through your example, just as St. Monica converted her family after something like twenty years of humbleness and excessive prayer. Don't listen to all the false ecumenism in this thread. While they are correct that we must always remember our own spiritual shortcomings and sinfulness, there is nothing wrong with noticing the same shortcomings in other people. But we are not to be prideful about it. We aren't supposed to think like the Pharisee that we are better than them, but sorrow and cry for them, pray for them that they change their lifestyle, and it is your duty to strive to do whatever you can to help them--especially prayer and trying your hardest to live the example, like St. Monica.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 05:14:59 AM by JamesR »

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Until I see the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, I will not believe.

I don't see anything false, much less ecumenical, in the advice to mind one's own business (a.k.a. the plank in one's own eye). God knows it's hard enough work, especially when one needs to be a glowing example to those they hold nearest and dearest.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Try to remember these passages from the Philokalia (there are similar ones in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers)...

"He who loves God lives the angelic life on earth, fasting and keeping vigils, praying and singing psalms and always thinking good of every man." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Texts on Love, 1.42

"Love for God always aspires to give wings to the intellect in its communion with God; love for one’s neighbor makes one always think good thoughts about him." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Texts on Love, 4.40

"When the intellect is moved by love for its neighbor, it always thinks well of him; but when it is under diabolic influence it entertains evil thoughts about him." - St. Thalassios the Libyan, On Love, Self-control and Life in Accordance with the Intellect, 3.80

"When you approach the frontiers of dispassion - attaining a right view of God and the nature of things, and according to your growth in purity ascending to the Creator through the beauty of His creatures - you will be illumined by the Holy Spirit. Entertaining kindly feelings about all men and always thinking good of all, you will look on all as pure and holy and will rightly esteem things both human and divine." - Nikitas Stithatos, On the Practice of the Virtues: One Hundred Texts, 90

Such an appropriate reply. I was going to draft a post of a different direction until I saw this one.

If you're a convert or not from an Orthodox family, chances are most people you know aren't Orthodox. How do cope with the fact that in your belief system almost everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

I think in the final judgement (Matthew 25:31-46) there will be sheep who were Orthodox, other Christian, & non Christian in their earthly life & the same criteria for who will be goats. I must pray for the salvation of my neighbor as well as my own.

If you're a convert or not from an Orthodox family, chances are most people you know aren't Orthodox. How do cope with the fact that in your belief system almost everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

Decades of experience.

EDIT: I didn't realize the question was about religious persuasion in general. Sorry, I was just replying to the subject.

everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

For starters, not with that attitude.

It isn't an attitude, it's Orthodox ecclesiology.

But Orthodoxy was not your idea. Orthodoxy might be the truth but we all are fundamentally deficient in every ways and those you judge to be wrong might be a lot better people and better Christians than you are.

Indeed.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

For starters, not with that attitude.

It isn't an attitude, it's Orthodox ecclesiology.

Dude, you better explain yourself...

Well Father, I'm not talking about being holier than anyone or anything as some people have assumed. It's my understanding that being in full communion with Christ and knowing the complete truth is an essential. How do you deal with knowing people you know are deprived of that?

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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

For starters, not with that attitude.

It isn't an attitude, it's Orthodox ecclesiology.

Dude, you better explain yourself...

Well Father, I'm not talking about being holier than anyone or anything as some people have assumed. It's my understanding that being in full communion with Christ and knowing the complete truth is an essential. How do you deal with knowing people you know are deprived of that?

Someone once told me the only sorrow we have on Pascha is knowing that there are others out there who don't experience the joy we do.

There are two further realizations we can come to when we realize that we are living amongst people who do not know the truth and are not in full communion with Christ. The first is to realize how short we ourselves are to being in full communion with Christ and knowing the truth. As Orthodox who have the sacraments and faith of the Church, of course we are not lacking as it depends on God's grace. But we certainly are lacking when it comes to following Christ's commandments. In "The Way of the Pilgrim" (it could be in "The Pilgrim Continues His Way"), the Pilgrim goes to an elder for confession and the elder gives him a list of three things to confess, which is a confession he has written for himself. The elder confesses that he does not love God, does not love his neighbor, and does not have faith. He gives reasons for his lack of all three, explaining how he falls short and misses the mark in each area. So, while we have the fullness of truth in the Orthodox faith and the grace of God in the sacraments, we fall very much short as depends on us. As Abbot Nikon says, we are all insolvent debtors before God.

The second realization that we can come to is that full communion wth and full knowledge of God are not really possible. We have what God gives us, which is as much as we are able to bear. As we are purified, illumined, and sanctified--beginning in this life and lasting throughout eternity--we still never attain to the absolute limit because God is infinite.

Now. God has given something to each person so that he might be helped spiritually in this life, so that he might develope a desire for God and come to know God and so be drawn to the Church and be saved. Even people who err morally or theologically (or both), who are not Orthodox, who may even be against Orthodoxy have something. It may well be that those who are not Orthodox, who just have one little thing which is just part of the whole truth, make better use of this little thing than an Orthodox Christian does of the fullness of the truth.

Beyond that, I guess how we "deal with" people who aren't Orthodox depends on specifics. I mean, they are still images of God, Christ died for them and wishes to save them, and He has commanded us to love them. We do not follow them in their errors, but we recognize the many good things they have to offer.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

By trying your hardest to live the right way in accordance with the Church in hopes that you will be like the lamp on the hillside that will convert them through your example, just as St. Monica converted her family after something like twenty years of humbleness and excessive prayer. Don't listen to all the false ecumenism in this thread. While they are correct that we must always remember our own spiritual shortcomings and sinfulness, there is nothing wrong with noticing the same shortcomings in other people. But we are not to be prideful about it. We aren't supposed to think like the Pharisee that we are better than them, but sorrow and cry for them, pray for them that they change their lifestyle, and it is your duty to strive to do whatever you can to help them--especially prayer and trying your hardest to live the example, like St. Monica.

By trying your hardest to live the right way in accordance with the Church in hopes that you will be like the lamp on the hillside that will convert them through your example, just as St. Monica converted her family after something like twenty years of humbleness and excessive prayer. Don't listen to all the false ecumenism in this thread. While they are correct that we must always remember our own spiritual shortcomings and sinfulness, there is nothing wrong with noticing the same shortcomings in other people. But we are not to be prideful about it. We aren't supposed to think like the Pharisee that we are better than them, but sorrow and cry for them, pray for them that they change their lifestyle, and it is your duty to strive to do whatever you can to help them--especially prayer and trying your hardest to live the example, like St. Monica.

would you care to point it out?

Just how everyone is instantly assuming that he is full of pride for realizing that some people are living contrary to the faith and warning him against such thinking. Just because you realize that doesn't mean you are full of pride or behaving badly. It just seems ecumenical in the sense how it's seen as so rude or prideful to openly admit that there is a true path and that it is only found in the Church--everyone is worried about getting their feelings hurt or something.

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Until I see the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, I will not believe.

Let us not forget that we are in Convert Issues. All this sarcasm being flung to and fro is not appropriate and should be relocated to another forum like FFA-RT.

That said, I think that JamesR may have understood the OP's question when he explained that by "false ecumenism" he had meant "Just how everyone is instantly assuming that he is full of pride for realizing that some people are living contrary to the faith and warning him against such thinking. Just because you realize that doesn't mean you are full of pride or behaving badly. It just seems ecumenical in the sense how it's seen as so rude or prideful to openly admit that there is a true path and that it is only found in the Church--everyone is worried about getting their feelings hurt or something."

I am still awaiting William's confirmation of JamesR's explanation. In the meantime, let me join many others who tried to answer an inquirer's question. William elaborated in his answer to Farther Bebo: "Well Father, I'm not talking about being holier than anyone or anything as some people have assumed. It's my understanding that being in full communion with Christ and knowing the complete truth is an essential. How do you deal with knowing people you know are deprived of that?" I will say this to William: You just love them even more and pray for them.

Let us not forget that we are in Convert Issues. All this sarcasm being flung to and fro is not appropriate and should be relocated to another forum like FFA-RT.

That said, I think that JamesR may have understood the OP's question when he explained that by "false ecumenism" he had meant "Just how everyone is instantly assuming that he is full of pride for realizing that some people are living contrary to the faith and warning him against such thinking. Just because you realize that doesn't mean you are full of pride or behaving badly. It just seems ecumenical in the sense how it's seen as so rude or prideful to openly admit that there is a true path and that it is only found in the Church--everyone is worried about getting their feelings hurt or something."

I am still awaiting William's confirmation of JamesR's explanation. In the meantime, let me join many others who tried to answer an inquirer's question. William elaborated in his answer to Farther Bebo: "Well Father, I'm not talking about being holier than anyone or anything as some people have assumed. It's my understanding that being in full communion with Christ and knowing the complete truth is an essential. How do you deal with knowing people you know are deprived of that?" I will say this to William: You just love them even more and pray for them.

Let us not forget that we are in Convert Issues. All this sarcasm being flung to and fro is not appropriate and should be relocated to another forum like FFA-RT.

That said, I think that JamesR may have understood the OP's question when he explained that by "false ecumenism" he had meant "Just how everyone is instantly assuming that he is full of pride for realizing that some people are living contrary to the faith and warning him against such thinking. Just because you realize that doesn't mean you are full of pride or behaving badly. It just seems ecumenical in the sense how it's seen as so rude or prideful to openly admit that there is a true path and that it is only found in the Church--everyone is worried about getting their feelings hurt or something."

I am still awaiting William's confirmation of JamesR's explanation. In the meantime, let me join many others who tried to answer an inquirer's question. William elaborated in his answer to Farther Bebo: "Well Father, I'm not talking about being holier than anyone or anything as some people have assumed. It's my understanding that being in full communion with Christ and knowing the complete truth is an essential. How do you deal with knowing people you know are deprived of that?" I will say this to William: You just love them even more and pray for them.

JamesR is correct.

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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Even after another moderator posted an informal reminder of the purpose of the Convert Issues board, you continue to post your polemics on this thread (in this and your previous post). Last I saw, you are also Roman Catholic, which makes you even more restricted as far as what you are permitted to post on Convert Issues: correctives of how others misrepresent your faith and nothing more. For continuing to submit posts inappropriate for Convert Issues even after the informal warning to stop, you are now on Warned status for the next 30 days.

If you deem this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message either to this section's moderator, Thomas, or to me.

Once again, I asked my Priest this very same question in regards to my family at Confession and he told me this. First, we have to refrain from falling into the sense of I'm-so-much-holier-than-them-Pharisee-attitude and secondly, we should try praying as much as we can for them--like St. Monica (I love her )--and try to live Orthodox as best as we can, so maybe we can convert them through our example. This is based off of Jesus' parable about the lamp on the hillside and not under a basket or something.

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Until I see the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, I will not believe.

James: Yes, praying for them is a good idea and the best is not to judge anyone. May last post was maybe a brick-in-the-face thing, but none of us are even close to perfection. One can only pray, do good and live a life as best as just human possible. Anything else is just impossible for us on this side of life. In my humble opinion.

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I will not be posting or participating here anymore.They claim this is an Orthodox Christian forum.Well, it is not!

everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

For starters, not with that attitude.

It isn't an attitude, it's Orthodox ecclesiology.

Ecclesiology has its place.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 08:26:06 PM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

When I start to judge someone non-Orthodox on the basis of their faith, I try to remember that even the smallest sin I commit is worse than the greatest of theirs, because I am closer to grasping the Truth and should have known better. I will probably also be judged more harshly come Judgment Day, because I won't be able to use the defense of ignorance.

Wow, it seems like literally everyone failed to get what you were saying.

He's not being judgemental at all. He's just pointing out a basic fact: If you believe Orthodoxy is the truth and someone doesn't have it, they don't have the ultimate truth, the most important thing of all.

Wow, it seems like literally everyone failed to get what you were saying.

Abysmally and that's not at all unusual around here, or most other message boards for that matter.William many Orthodox are solitary due to practical considerations, hopefully that won't always be the case.

If you're a convert or not from an Orthodox family, chances are most people you know aren't Orthodox. How do cope with the fact that in your belief system almost everyone you come across is living their life in a fundamentally deficient way?

By reminding my self...

...that it is not me that is right but the Orthodox Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

...that while I have accepted the True Faith and joined the true Church, I have made little progress in actually conforming my life to the truths that I eagerly affirm.

...that while I have the true Faith and everything necessary for theosis, I am surrounded by those who have not received the Holy Spirit through a proper baptism and yet exceed me in virtue and piety.

...that if I were to truly live in an Orthodox manner in imitation of Christ and His saints, those around me would have a chance to experience the grace of the Holy Spirit through me and would flock to the Orthodox Church.

...that if I those around me do not seek to become Orthodox, I can only blame my own sinfulness and poor example which fails to inspire them.

...that if my heart was pure, then my prayers for the conversion and salvation of those around me would have power and would bear fruit.

...that if I have all manner of Orthodox knowledge and zeal in following Orthodox teaching, it is all for nothing if I have not love.

...that we will be judged according to what we did with what we knew, and while so many of those around me have never been exposed to the True Faith, I have read countless patristic and ascetical books and have put nothing into practice.

These are some of the ways I try to cope with the fact that so few around me are Orthodox Christians.

Wow, it seems like literally everyone failed to get what you were saying.

He's not being judgemental at all. He's just pointing out a basic fact: If you believe Orthodoxy is the truth and someone doesn't have it, they don't have the ultimate truth, the most important thing of all.

All this "You're ok, they're ok" stuff sounds so Unitarian...

That's not where I'm coming from. The problem is still acute, these days, if one simply holds to the Nicene faith at all. You have to deal with the people at the office and at school and in the neighborhood who are Hindus, or Muslims, or (in my case) orthodox Jews, or are simply irreligious; never mind one's fellow (heretical) Christians. The risk is to one's personal integrity, but it can go off the rails to either side. One can compromise one's faith, but one can also transfer one's confidence in the faith received of old into a personal confidence and then arrogance which is deeply corrosive to the soul. You are not right in this: only the faith is right, and the Spirit preserve you in truth that you recall it and express it as God wills.