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I think you both missed the point though. While I’m the first to admit that both parties are guilty of hysteria over the mundane, this article reflects what I’ve said multiple times. The hysteria over everything has become noise to the general public. I’m convinced it is a Trump tactic to keep us unfocused on the mess and the democrats are unwitting players. The entire thing is just like The Apprentice... stir things up and see what happens. It makes for great TV for the dimwitted (I have always hated ‘reality TV’). Is that any different than what we are witnessing?

Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

I agree. In "normal" politics, if you don't counterattack, you're defined by your attackers. Running against Trump might present the opportunity to rise above that, to bypass arguing with him, because with a majority of voters, Trump's credibility is non-existent, because he contradicts himself multiple times... on the same issue.

In a debate in 2020, a candidate could simply respond to Trump with "we can and must do better".

I think that deep down lots of GOP strategists worry that the Dems (or a leading Dem POTUS candidate) will do just that, instead of letting Trump troll him/her. If the major news media do the same then maybe he’ll be neutralized. I don’t have a lot of confidence that the Democratic base will allow their leading candidate to do that, however, and the news media, well, they want clicks, readers and eyeballs, and if relentlessly and shrilly bashing Trump gets all of those for them, they won’t stop.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I think that deep down lots of GOP strategists worry that the Dems (or a leading Dem POTUS candidate) will do just that, instead of letting Trump troll him/her. If the major news media do the same then maybe he’ll be neutralized. I don’t have a lot of confidence that the Democratic base will allow their leading candidate to do that, however, and the news media, well, they want clicks, readers and eyeballs, and if relentlessly and shrilly bashing Trump gets all of those for them, they won’t stop.

A couple of things that could help the Democrats in 2018 and 2020: they are engaged in more grassroots work now, and if that is focusing more on local issues and more centrist policy, rather than focusing on Trump, that will go a long way to negating the noise. If they nominate a governor who has not focused on Trump in 2020, that would also be a big plus.

Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

Originally Posted by USS Utah

Most of all, avoid "arguments" from outrage like the plague. People on both sides want us to be outraged, we tend not to make the best decisions when we are angry.

Yes. I preached that to a lot of people prior to the election, especially during the nominating period. I kept saying that choosing to vote for a particular presidential candidate just because you’re angry is a bad idea. How many good decisions do any of us make when we’re angry?

Last edited by LA Ute; 02-12-2018 at 10:05 PM.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

President Donald Trump's personal lawyer said Tuesday that he paid $130,000 of his own money to a porn star who allegedly had a sexual encounter with the President before his time in office. "In a private transaction in 2016, I used my own personal funds to facilitate a payment of $130,000 to Ms. Stephanie Clifford," Michael Cohen said in a statement. "Neither the Trump Organization nor the Trump campaign was a party to the transaction with Ms. Clifford, and neither reimbursed me for the payment, either directly or indirectly."

Decades from now historians will enjoy writing about this era. It’s not much fun at the moment, however.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

This is interesting. I'm home sick and so I watched a little bit of Rod Rosenstein's press conference. He repeated several times that the indictment names only Russians and that no American is alleged to have done anything. Apparently these Russians went to great lengths to conceal the fact that they were not Americans. They worked through a VPN based in America, for example. In other words, they were trying to dupe Americans. I wonder if the Trumpistas were simply duped?

By no means is this vindication of anyone, but we are going to be hearing about all weekend in the news media.

A Russian internet organization and 13 Russian nationals were indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of seeking to interfere in the U.S. electoral process.
The indictment obtained by Special Counsel Robert Mueller accuses the Internet Research Agency and the Russians of using social media and staged rallies with the "strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system." The organization, the indictment alleged, attacked "a number of candidates" but by mid-2016 its operations were focused on "supporting" the campaign of now-President Donald Trump and "disparaging" his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

A couple of things that could help the Democrats in 2018 and 2020: they are engaged in more grassroots work now, and if that is focusing more on local issues and more centrist policy, rather than focusing on Trump, that will go a long way to negating the noise. If they nominate a governor who has not focused on Trump in 2020, that would also be a big plus.

The thing that’s going to help the democrats in 2018 and 2020 is Russian interference.

Trump and the GOP are dragging their feet on 1) admitting interference and 2) enacting measures to prevent future interference.

Maybe they think Russia will continue to push things in their direction, but if you put yourself in Putin’s shoes and think of the best possible way to destabilize the US, the answer is to interfere and throw elections to the dems this time yielding impeachment proceedings and violence from the better armed, more volatile, and more easily manipulated extreme right. The dems don’t even have to be knowing or willing participants.

Interference to elect trump was just the setup jab. The Russians are coming with a straight right next time.

David Axelrod Retweeted Kevin CirilliJill Stein received 50,700 votes in MI. Trump won by less than 12,000. She outpolled Trump’s margin in WI, as well.If Russians sought to redirect alienated HRC voters to third parties, as indictment alleges, it was a shrewd ploy.

I have already heard pundits say the USA should retaliate and try to cause similar problems in Russia. (Maybe we already are.) So does the Cold War move from missiles and nuclear submarines to social media and URLs?

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

I have already heard pundits say the USA should retaliate and try to cause similar problems in Russia. (Maybe we already are.) So does the Cold War move from missiles and nuclear submarines to social media and URLs?

Our conventional military is the 21st century’s Maginot line. The war has bypassed our fortified borders and entered through our PCs and cell phones.

How people can see Trump as a useful idiot for enacting incremental right-friendly political change while he simultaneously wages as a profoundly destabilizing war against the foundation of our political institutions is beyond me.

You have to get to page 12 before the document starts describing the way the Russians went about their business.

I have heard so far on news reports that these efforts to organize rallies were not very successful. But who knows whether or not we are looking at the tip of the iceberg?

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

- construct a cage on a flatbed truck, have a person in costume as Hillary in a prisoner uniform inside, impressive enough to be mimicked by a man in Cape Coral.

- organized "Florida Goes Trump" campaign rallies held in 20 cities, with oddly worded news releases, like "On August 20, we want to gather patriots on the start of Floridian towns and cities and march to unite America and support Donald Trump!"

- Russian-linked Facebook group "Being Patriotic" sent messages to followers like "Florida is still a purple state and we need to appoint it red"

LA makes an excellent point that the Mueller investigation could lead us in quite a different direction than expected. This is absolutely a new Cold War, and make no mistake - the Russians will/would turn on Trump, just like they riled up both sides of the BLM with different Facebook groups on both sides (complete with some awkward English).

If this ends up leading far deeper, into the campaign, then Mueller is showing he's pretty damn smart in bringing these unexpected indictments to keep off balance the forces trying to get him canned & the investigation halted.

Releasing these late on the Friday of a 3 day weekend suggests a PR strategy to keep this as low profile as possible, so as to not inflame Trump any more than necessary, but signal to Congress that Mueller is finding information they should want to see explored, not terminated.

How will Hannity & Nunes deal with THIS? The (I think contrived) story about Deep State in the corrupt FBI out to undermine Trump has taken on urban myth status on the right. What will be the Right media's narrative on these indictments?

- construct a cage on a flatbed truck, have a person in costume as Hillary in a prisoner uniform inside, impressive enough to be mimicked by a man in Cape Coral.

- organized "Florida Goes Trump" campaign rallies held in 20 cities, with oddly worded news releases, like "On August 20, we want to gather patriots on the start of Floridian towns and cities and march to unite America and support Donald Trump!"

- Russian-linked Facebook group "Being Patriotic" sent messages to followers like "Florida is still a purple state and we need to appoint it red"

LA makes an excellent point that the Mueller investigation could lead us in quite a different direction than expected. This is absolutely a new Cold War, and make no mistake - the Russians will/would turn on Trump, just like they riled up both sides of the BLM with different Facebook groups on both sides (complete with some awkward English).

If this ends up leading far deeper, into the campaign, then Mueller is showing he's pretty damn smart in bringing these unexpected indictments to keep off balance the forces trying to get him canned & the investigation halted.

Releasing these late on the Friday of a 3 day weekend suggests a PR strategy to keep this as low profile as possible, so as to not inflame Trump any more than necessary, but signal to Congress that Mueller is finding information they should want to see explored, not terminated.

How will Hannity & Nunes deal with THIS? The (I think contrived) story about Deep State in the corrupt FBI out to undermine Trump has taken on urban myth status on the right. What will be the Right media's narrative on these indictments?

It’s hard to keep track, but wasn’t the most successful effort an anti-Trump rally in NYC after the election? 16,000 people? I’m happy to be corrected if I heard that wrong. The malevolence of the Russians’ mischief is that it seeks to set people in a free liberal democracy against each other. Sickening when you think about it. Bad people are running Russia again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

It’s hard to keep track, but wasn’t the most successful effort an anti-Trump rally in NYC after the election? 16,000 people? I’m happy to be corrected if I heard that wrong. The malevolence of the Russians’ mischief is that it seeks to set people in a free liberal democracy against each other. Sickening when you think about it. Bad people are running Russia again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Putin has been in power for 18 years. Even the 4 years he wasn’t president he was Prime Minister.....to a president who is now his Prime Minister.

As a country we likely got too enamored with the idea that Russia had changed.

Putin has been in power for 18 years. Even the 4 years he wasn’t president he was Prime Minister.....to a president who is now his Prime Minister.

As a country we likely got too enamored with the idea that Russia had changed.

Completely agree. Putin was a KGB agent, during the heyday of Soviet power.

Especially after being rebuffed for inclusion in NATO and the EU (the Euros were aghast at the brutality Putin (apparently) unleashed in Chechnya to consolidate his autocratic power) he's been on a long campaign to exert Russian power by destabilizing other nations.

Russia's economy is half the size of California's. A return of Greater Russia isn't going to happen, economically.

For the US, Putin has been on an aggressive campaign to get the sanctions against Russian oligarchs lifted. That's the key fact that Americans of all political persuasions need to remember. We need to stop arguing and posturing among ourselves and keep our eyes on the ball.

As a country we likely got too enamored with the idea that Russia had changed.

Yeah. It was wishful thinking. With 1000 years of a paranoid culture, resentful of the West‘s treatment of it as a second-class citizen, Russia is not a place that’s easy for the rest of the world to deal with. It never will be.

Originally Posted by Ma’ake

Completely agree. Putin was a KGB agent, during the heyday of Soviet power.

Especially after being rebuffed for inclusion in NATO and the EU (the Euros were aghast at the brutality Putin (apparently) unleashed in Chechnya to consolidate his autocratic power) he's been on a long campaign to exert Russian power by destabilizing other nations.

Russia's economy is half the size of California's. A return of Greater Russia isn't going to happen, economically.

For the US, Putin has been on an aggressive campaign to get the sanctions against Russian oligarchs lifted. That's the key fact that Americans of all political persuasions need to remember. We need to stop arguing and posturing among ourselves and keep our eyes on the ball.

Hey! Good post. It’s an ironic possibility that Putin will cause the United States to develop a bipartisan foreign policy again, at least as regards Russia. Wouldn’t that be something?

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

The article makes an interesting point about the fact that the indictment lays the groundwork for potential criminal prosecution, establishing that the Russians’ activities were criminal, and that knowing participation in them will probably constitute participation in a conspiracy. We may see soon just how “unwitting“ any Americans involved were.

Last edited by LA Ute; 02-17-2018 at 12:07 PM.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

The second photo in story reveals what we're up against. Social media targeting a group called "African Americans for Hillary" with the message, "Avoid the line, vote from home" "Text "Hillary" to 59925". Another was a push to vote for Jill Stein, saying "it's not a vote wasted".

Highly sophisticated voter suppression/diversion.

I spend a fair amount of time dealing with phishing emails, and currently the most effective defense is to educate email users to be highly suspicious and show them how to figure out if email is bogus. There's always a few that fall for phishing attempts, but overall I think my customers are getting savvy.

Educating voters about voter suppression is another animal, but I think it's possible... and maybe what we've been through as a nation will be motivation enough to get people to pay attention.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

The article makes an interesting point about the fact that the indictment lays the groundwork for potential criminal prosecution, establishing that the Russians’ activities were criminal, and that knowing participation in them will probably constitute participation in a conspiracy. We may see soon just how “unwitting“ any Americans involved were.

as a liberal I should be excited about this recent development, but I haven't paid much attention to it and I find it difficult to follow. But I do like BBC's coverage of news events and find them typically neutral politically. Maybe I should try and catch up?

Life in the Trump Era, Part 2

Originally Posted by Scorcho

as a liberal I should be excited about this recent development, but I haven't paid much attention to it and I find it difficult to follow. But I do like BBC's coverage of news events and find them typically neutral politically. Maybe I should try and catch up?

You might find yourself exhausted after about 30 minutes of reading. There’s spin everywhere, mostly based on information we can’t see. That’s why, to me, this indictment is so interesting. It’s real information based on painstaking investigation by top-notch professionals.

Whatever you do, don’t listen to Ma’ake or concerned. They are tragically misguided and will only lead you astray.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by LA Ute; 02-17-2018 at 04:39 PM.

"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats

“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”