However, Zanna has been working this since January, and probably has 17 people and likely their families scared to death that they are poisoned. The article says a doctor has been involved, sometimes I've seen this and it turns out to be a naturopath, etc., and found it strange that, "Al's doctor has referred him to the Poison Control Center for treatment."

This doesn't sound like a doctor at all, do they even treat people?
No.

During today's podcast with Food Integrity Now, MJM said something about heading down to AZ to do something with former Arizona Sen. Karen Johnson, taping some interviews. I suppose he is involved wih this by now.

Zanna's Congressman told him the hard truth, gave him references, their office spent quite some time on this, all a waste it seems.

I wonder if MJM has stock in any of these analytical labs? He's sure drumming up some business!

In my opinion this gambit has gotten legs and can't be called back in, probably not even by MJM himself.
I'm betting MJM will do as before, run with it, and deny, deny, deny.
It might take some time for the folks to tire of Murphy like they did with William Thomas, who is today a nobody because his chemtrail stuff always led down dead-ends too.

So I think what they have done is assumed that 10 is "normal", but actually the "reporting limit" is 11, so that means numbers less than 11 are unreliable (?), so anything below 10 is reported as "normal". But the median value is 21 (meaning half of all people have a result higher than 21). And the 10-90% population are in the range 1.8-165. Meaning 40% of all people are in the range 21-165.

What the labs actually report as typical results:

So basically they have normal levels. A couple of people have levels a bit higher than average. Several have levels lower than average.

I initially though they assumed that mcg = mg, when actually mcg = 0.001mg
[Edit] , actually no. It seems like they take a rather narrow view of the statistics at the bottom:

So I think what they have done is assumed that 10 is "normal", but actually the reporting limit is 11, so that means numbers less than 11 are unreliable, so anything below 10 is reported as "normal". But the median value is 21 (meaning half of all people have a result higher than 21). And 10-90% are in the range 1.8-165. Meaning 40% of all people are in the range 21-165.

Click to expand...

I bet they really hate it when you do that, Mick.
Slam-dunk DEBUNK.
G Edward Griffin was saying we tried to make them look foolish, but they actually do it to themselves!

Now we can really test your preempt debunk proposal.
I see MikeC posted the debunk over there, 2 days have elapsed.
Will they 'pull it'? (OMG, look what I just said!)

A more likely source of the slightly elevated level of barium is the Mineral Park mine (Mercator Minerals), just a few miles north of Golden Valley. It mines 50,000 tons per day in an open-pit configuration, one of the largest such mines in North America. This inevitably will produce some elevated amounts of both airborne and groundwater levels of all the minerals found in the ground.
But again, the test results are not particularly high. Well within normal ranges.

Reading the comments over there is an eye-opener. You have one that claims a PhD, and another with a law degree that are so deeply invested into it that they refuse evidence put right in their faces that Zanna made a mistake.

After four emails back and forth with Gianluca Zanna, he steadfastly refuses to understand what has been presented in this thread. He also refuses my advice to contact the NMS lab or a toxicologist, though he does remark that one of his subjects was advised by a doctor to contact a toxicologist. His main hang-up seems to be that NMS wrote "elevated" on the lab report. He says that he is not an idiot and can read the blood test for himself. He wants a investigation into the situation and says that he is supposed to have NO barium in his blood. Period.

It appears he will get his investigation, and will no doubt be disappointed in the result.

Mr. Zanna should reflect this fact on the website, and apologize to everyone involvedfor the fear and the trouble he has caused. I believe Mr. Gianluca should offer to pay all costs for this episode, including he testing that he encouraged, the anxiety and mental distress, and any expense he has caused the government to look into his spurious accusations.

This was a complete and total waste of money, time, and resources which could have been avoided had Mr. Zanna consulted a Toxicologist before making this false alarm. If any police resources were wasted in this case, there may actually be a legal remedy against Mr. Zanna under the false alarm laws. Our nation simply cannot afford to have scarce resources spent on bogus Un-American scares such as this.

Mr. Al Dicicco has read this forum and notified me by email he has declined to debate.

I forgot about this before, but at home I have a shelf which holds a collection of found objects, one of them is an Oklahoma "Rock Rose" I picked up during a trip about a dozen years ago near Oklahoma City, there were many of these in a ditch beside the road.

It is the official State Rock of Oklahoma.
Barium sulfate and sandstone.
Naturally occurring.
Beautiful.

Nice work Jay - thanks for the effort - and the picture - fascinating!! I spent a couple of weeks in Ok city 11 years ago on a course at the FAA university there....it was too hot to go looking for rock roses tho!

As for the replies.......I guess this is how stereotypes get confirmed!!

Barium is ubiquitous in soils, being found at concen-
trations ranging from 100-3000 µg/g (Schroeder, 1970;
Robinson et al., 1950). Brooks (1978) estimated an average
soil concentration of 500 mg/kg. Due to its abundance in
soils, barium may be present in the air in areas with high
natural dust levels.
Barium can be transported into ground-water aquifers
through the leaching and eroding of barium from sedimen-
tary rocks. The level of barium present in the ground
water is related to the hardness of the water, since
barium is always present with calcium (Kopp & Kroner,
1968). Cartwright et al. (1978) reported that the high
barium levels in ground water in Illinois, USA, were
derived from the sandstone formation of the Cambrian-
Ordovician aquifer. The highest concentrations occurred
in fine-grained and older sediments. Barium was found in
94% of the surface waters examined, the concentrations
range being 2-340 µg/litre (Kopp & Kroner, 1967).

4.1.1. Air
Examination of dust falls and suspended particulates
indicates that most contain barium. The presence of barium
is mainly attributable to industrial emissions, especially
the combustion of coal and diesel oil and waste inciner-
ation, and may also result from dusts blown from soils and
mining processes. Barium sulfate and carbonate are the
forms of barium most likely to occur in particulate matter
in the air, although the presence of other insoluble com-
pounds cannot be excluded. The residence time of barium
in the atmosphere may be several days, depending on the
particle size. Most of these particles, however, are much
larger than 10 µm in size, and rapidly settle back to
earth.
Particles can be removed from the atmosphere by rain-
out or wash-out wet deposition. These two forms of depo-
sition efficiently clear the atmosphere of pollutants, but they
are not well understood. Without knowing the amount
of barium in the atmosphere, it is difficult to evaluate
the processes of deposition, transport, and distribution.

5.1.4. Food
A review of the early literature summarizes the quan-
tity of barium present in many plants (Robinson et al.,
1950). Barium has been found in grain stalks, forage
plants, red ash leaves, and in the black walnut, hickory,
and Brazil nut trees. With the exception of the Brazil nut
tree, those parts of the plants that accumulate barium are
seldom eaten by man. Various studies document the concen-
trations of barium in Brazil nuts ranging from 1500-3000
mg/kg (Robinson et al., 1950; Smith, 1971a). Barium is
also present in wheat, although most is concentrated in
the stalks and leaves rather than in the grain (Smith,
1971b). Tomatoes and soybeans also concentrate soil
barium, the bioconcentration factor ranging from 2 to 20
(Robinson et al., 1950). Gormican (1970) determined the
barium content of a large number of food items, including
dairy products, cereals, fruits and vegetables, and meats
(Table 7). In the beverages group, tea and cocoa had the
highest barium content (2.7 and 1.2 mg/100 g, respect-
ively) on a dry-weight basis. Among breads, cereal prod-
ucts, and cracker products, bran flakes (0.39 mg/100 g)
and enriched instant cream of wheat (0.2 mg/100 g) had the
highest levels. Eggs were found to have 0.76 mg/100 g, and
swiss cheese 0.22 mg/100 g. Fruits and fruit juice had low
barium levels, the highest values being in raw, unpeeled
apples (0.075 mg/100 g). These levels are similar to those
found in grapes (<0.05 mg/100 g) and cooked prunes (0.064
mg/100 g). All meats showed concentrations of 0.04 mg per
100 g or less. Vegetables had relatively low barium
levels, with the exception of beets (0.26 mg/100 g) and
sweet potatoes (0.22 mg/100 g). Among nuts, pecans had the
highest barium content (0.67 mg/100 g).

Great info, so two eggs(100 grams) and 2 cups of bran flakes(100 grams) for breakfast gives you
.39+.76=1.5 milligrams of barium for breakfast.

I am a cancer survivor and have drunk my share of barium milkshakes before CAT scans.
I also have worked with barite dust having blown thousands of tons of it up to oil rigs using compressed air,
had it all over my clothes, in my hair, etc. I am possibly opaque, radiologically speaking, and according to Zanna should have been dead and gone long ago. Yet I persist.

I know Prison Planet is something of a lost cause, but I thought I'd try posting there, as the story cropped up. I was actually a little surprised that my first post was not immediately deleted, and the strongly pro-chemtrail-theory moderator KiwiClare, actually responded.

Post by: Uncinus on May 25, 2011, 06:23:23 PM
Barium is found in minerals like barite . It's just part of the earth's crust.

Weathering of rock releases barium compounds (mostly barium sulfate) as mineral dust, this then gets into water, and blown into the air as dust. It's also taken up by some planes and animals, so gets in the food supply.

Calcium is also an earth metal in the same group of metals as barium. Calcium carbonate is found in rocks in the same way barium sulfate is.

Neither of these elements can exist in nature in their metallic forms, and it's impossible for the metallic forms to be found in the body (they would react with the water in the body within seconds). What blood tests show is some compound of barium.

Click to expand...

Which she deleted, and sent me a nice PM:

« Sent to: Uncinus on: May 25, 2011, 07:05:14 PM »
I removed your last post as you do not acknowledge that chemtrails introduce barium into the atmosphere. You behave like a disinformation agent.

Click to expand...

I tried again:

Post by: Uncinus on May 25, 2011, 08:34:21 PM
If chemtrails were spraying barium, then yes, that could be it.

But it also comes from rocks, just like calcium does. So can get in food, air and water from weather and natural processes.

I'll admit that sometimes on this internet of ours I'm quite naive, but I'm astonished people like that are able to become moderators. The job of a moderator is to maintain the equilibrium of posts, keeping the initial spirit of a board constant (just as Uncinus/Mick does). Of course if the board starts out heavily biased then it becomes their job to keep it that way...

I think KiwiClare is Clare Swiney - who is a real nutjob....literally - her saga of incarceration in a mental institution for a couple of weeks is her calvary (put in by rellies, kept in for longer than necessary because of her 9/11 beliefs........apologised to because of that (political beliefs are not a reason for involuntary incarceration) - but I suspect if her entire spectrum of paranoia had been known it would have provided sufficient justification!!)

Her website is at http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress.com/ & is totally censored asd aer other NZ chemmie sites that generally take their lead from her - none of my posts ever show up there - Ross Marsden's used to - but either he's given up or she's censoring him now.

Clare asked me to stop commenting on her site. So I did. There seemed to be no point - anything I posted (at one time) vanished into the "Spam" folder. More recently, my few comments "await moderation". I think we have reached an understanding .. I have asked for the right of reply if I am referenced in a post (or comment). She grants this, so that's fine.
I also hit the "like" icon on selected posts. This brings up my WordPress avatar. I use it like the "BS" flag is used on GLP.

I have backed away from activism a lot after my guest speaker spot at the Wellington screening of "What in the World...". However, I do intend to write to G Edward about some things he said in that interview on FoodIntegrity, and about his lame piece about contrails. http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/realityzone/UFNchemtrailorcontrail.html
I think he needs to be challenged about those.

One of the most promising technologies to generate hard evidence of chemtrails is the Internet tracking of planes in flight. There are several computer programs and devices that track commercial flights in real time and show, not only their location, but also their flight number, type of aircraft, origin, destination, speed, and altitude. The cost for this Ap on an iPhone is about $4, and on a computer, it is free. This is amazing technology, and the programs actually are fun to use. They work by receiving what is called ADS-B plane feeds, which are radio signals transmitted by commercial and private aircraft. Military aircraft and those on classified missions do not transmit this signal.

I’m sure you already see where this is going. It is theoretically possible to identify every commercial plane you see overhead either by pointing your iPhone camera at it or locating it on the screen of your computer. If the debunkers are correct, we will find that planes spewing a trail from horizon-to-horizon will all be identified as merely commercial craft and what we see are merely normal contrails after all. On the other hand, if we find that commercial craft do not leave streaks from horizon to horizon but the ones that do are missing from the system … well, even the most die-hard skeptic would have to take a serious look at that.

To be sure, the debunkers will always be able to find some semi-plausible explanation for everything, even this. For example, not all parts of the world or even of the United States are serviced by this technology at the present time, although the most populated areas are. So the debunkers will likely claim that the coverage is not complete and, therefore, not reliable. Also, there is some question about whether all commercial planes are equipped with these transmitters or merely most of them, so the debunkers will claim that a plane that does not show up in the system is probably just one of those commercial planes without transmitters. One blogger who is not happy with the technology claims that his iPhone does not work if the plane is closer than 50 miles, supposedly because of some interference by Homeland Security to protect planes from terrorists. (I do not have an iPhone so I cannot verify his claim, but I had no trouble tracking aircraft directly overhead when using the full computer version of Plane Tracker.) In any event, debunkers will claim that the system is filled with quirks and errors and is not reliable. You get the picture.

Click to expand...

I checked Planefinder and could immediately tell it wasn't showing the full range of planes.

Mr. Griffin should have checked this out before jumping the gun,
but he already knew it had limitations.......

The ASD-B equipment is not required for domestic flights till 2020.

The APP is essentially worthless for what they want to do, as so many
ordinary commercial flights don't show up.

I think KiwiClare is Clare Swiney - who is a real nutjob....literally - her saga of incarceration in a mental institution for a couple of weeks is her calvary (put in by rellies, kept in for longer than necessary because of her 9/11 beliefs........apologised to because of that (political beliefs are not a reason for involuntary incarceration) - but I suspect if her entire spectrum of paranoia had been known it would have provided sufficient justification!!)

Her website is at http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress.com/ & is totally censored asd aer other NZ chemmie sites that generally take their lead from her - none of my posts ever show up there - Ross Marsden's used to - but either he's given up or she's censoring him now.

Click to expand...

I went to that site and saw this:

Claire Swinney said:

Condensation trails aka ‘contrails’ , can not form behind aircraft unless the atmosphere is very cold. As NASA explains, “Contrails only form at very high altitudes (usually above 8 km) where the air is extremely cold (less than -40 degrees C/ -70 degrees F).” Chemtrails are forming in conditions that are not at all suitable for condensation trails, as this video indicates, eg at an altitude of 3-4000 feet.http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress....weather-warfare-geoengineering-chemtrails-nz/

Seriously, another unfortunate indication of how incorrect facts cannot effectively be corrected once they have made their way onto the internet. This -70F nonsense will probably be around for the next ten years.

Seriously, another unfortunate indication of how incorrect facts cannot effectively be corrected once they have made their way onto the internet. This -70F nonsense will probably be around for the next ten years.

Click to expand...

I see that Claire must be reading this forum and has corrected her error. Way to go, Clare!

I see that Mike found a very relevant document from August, 2006, wherein a full investigation of a claimed "barium toxicity" in a mother and child was investigated by Texas Department of State Health Services. Tests results indicated 331 μg/L and 251 μg/L of barium in the citizen’s mother’s blood and daughter’s blood, respectively. The report is complete with references. Drinking water, soil and household samples were taken which indicated that levels of barium in the environment were not out of the ordinary.http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/epitox/consults/coxroad_barium.pdf
Regarding the blood levels, they reported:

ATSDR said:

The reported serum barium levels in the child and her grandmother of 251 and 331 μg/L
respectively are both above what is considered by some to be the "normal range" of 30-200 μg/L
[12, 13]. However, other sources have reported the "normal range" to be 30-290 μg/L [16] and
80-400 μg/L [14, 15]. Furthermore, while the reported levels may be somewhat above the
"normal range," they are 4 to 15 times lower than the range that would be expected to produce
significant clinical signs or symptoms of barium poisoning [12, 16].

Click to expand...

The report concluded:

ATSDR said:

Conclusions
1. Drinking water has been eliminated as a significant source of barium exposure for this
family.
2. Samples from within the household did not show a significant barium exposure potential.
3. Except for a single neighborhood sample, on-site soil and off-site sediment barium levels
appear to be in the normal background range.
4. Serum barium levels in this child and her grandmother vary from the “upper range of
normal” up to “slightly elevated,” depending on the chosen comparison population
norms.
5. The serum barium levels reported are not high enough to expect clinical signs or
symptoms of barium toxicity.
6. The borderline-elevated serum barium levels in this family most likely come from natural
dietary sources; therefore, there is no apparent public health hazard from the Cox Road
site.

Click to expand...

I did some thinking after I first posted this.
CSI thinking.
As much as we speak about connecting the dots, here I go.....

1. The report concluded that dietary intake was the likely reason for the barium blood levels.
2. The child and her grandmother both had "cramps, abdominal pains, and numbness" in April, 2006.
3. The mother did not report symptoms.
4. Nuts, including peanuts, are among the highest dietary sources of barium.

The researchers could have looked at:
1. What was common to both the grandmother and granddaughter.
2. What was dissimilar in the mother's diet, if they shared common food preferences, etc.
3. What was the mother's barium level?
4. Did the child and grandmother eat peanut butter?
5. Does the mother not eat peanut butter?

The reason why I would have asked that is that, though the symptoms were reported as taking place in April of 2006, during 2006, a significant outbreak of salmonella ocurred which was traceable to contaminated peanut butter:http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5621a1.htm

Of course, this is in hindsight, likely the ASTDR has no idea about the outbreak since most salmonella cases began reporting in August, 2006 after the research was completed.\

This case could have been an early incident within the outbreak, or unrelated. The ASTDR was asked to evaluate the risk of the toxic site, not to neccessarily find the cause of borderline elevated barium levels, but to eliminate the toxic site as a possible cause.

The chemtrails believers who are falsely claiming that they have elevated blood levels could do an experiment. They could eliminate nuts from their diet and see if their levels decrease. Since there are other sources of barium, dietary and environmental, this would not be conclusive, but might be interesting. I would also be interested in seeing what average blood barium levels are within a group of people who have nut allergies and thus no nuts in their diets.

Barium metal does not occur free in nature. IT OCCURS IN ZINC OR IRON ORES. THE EARTH'S CRUST CONTAINS 450 PPM & SEAWATER CONTAINS ABOUT 0.03 PPM. Barium is emitted into the atmosphere mainly by the industrial processes involved in the mining, refining, and production of barium and barium based chemicals and as a result of combustion of coal and oil. Background levels for soil range from 100-3000 ppm barium. Ingestion or inhalation of dust or fume, skin or eye contact. Small numbers of people are known to be consuming well waters in Illinois, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, & New Mexico that are at, or exceed by 10 times, the standard for barium.

AVG DAILY BARIUM INTAKE OF HUMAN ADULT IS ABOUT 1.3 MG (0.65-1.7 MG) In an American hospital diet, the avg daily intake of barium was estimated as 375 ug, while in the diet of the general population it may be as high as 1.33 mg. Estimated typical dietary barium intake originated 25% from milk, 25% from flour, 25% from potatoes, and 25% from misc high barium foods consumed in minor quantities, esp nuts.

Normal levels for barium in various organs of unexposed persons have been published. Total amt in skeleton of a 70 kg American adult was estimated at 2 ug/g or about 90% of total body barium (Ba). Other organs with measurable levels incl eye (330 ng/g), lungs (160 ng/g), connective tissue (125 ng/g), skin (50 ng/g), adipose tissue (36 ng/g). In other internal organs, barium concn were slight. Among various parts of the eye, choroid had highest level, reaching 10 ug/g in man. Normal human blood contains 0.08-0.4 mg Ba/l; most or all is in the plasma fraction. Avg values are found: Bone 4.1-29 ug Ba/g; blood 41-95 ug Ba/g; kidney 1.3-20 ug Ba/g; liver 0.2-10 ug Ba/g; spleen 0.6-12 ug Ba/g. Assuming an avg of 70 kg as human body wt, the barium content has been estimated to be 16 mg.

HUMAN ADULT BODY CONTAINS ABOUT 22 MG BARIUM, 66% OF IT PRESENT IN BONES. Dental enamel of the first bicuspids of humans less than 20 years of age was analyzed for 66 minor inorganic elements by spark source mass spectroscopy. Teeth were from 24 communities located in 16 states in the USA. Mean barium concentration was 4.2 + or - 0.60 ug/g (mg/kg) dry weight. Total body burden: 22 mg barium (90% in bone); levels in bone and aorta incr with age. Kidney: 0.04-1.0 mg Ba/kg; Liver: 0.04-1.0 mg Ba/kg; Muscle: 0.09 mg Ba/kg; Bone: 3-70 mg Ba/kg; Hair: 0.55-4.0 mg Ba/kg; Nails: 7.5 mg Ba/kg; iris (eye): 206-1100 mg Ba/kg (possible function in vision); Blood: 0.068 mg Ba/l. Based on autopsy data, barium levels in human bone are relatively constant and do not appear to increase with age, ranging from an average value of 7.0 ppm in bone at age 0 to 3 months to an average of 8.5 ppm at age 33 to 74 years.

Al Diciccio asked the Mohave County Health Board to tell him about his blood barium levels.
They agreed to get expert testimony to tell him about his exposure to several things.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCF3aWmFKxQ

They brought an expert to testify and told him he was normal, and that barium, aluminum and strontium are a part of the earth. He went ballistic and rejected what they told him.

This is sad because he already had been told this, but he was "set up" for failure by his cohorts in the chemtrails believer movement. People like Michael J. Murphy "set him up" as a failure by giving him bogus information. He shouldn't be angry at the county, who will not respond to him any more, he should be angry at the people who misinformed him. He sounds like he is not very happy, but has misidentified who caused him all this trouble.

what is wrong with you? You cannot even spell DiCicco? Many many more are going to sue obstructionists like you, government agencies and we want to include you in the criminal and civil lawsuit for cut and pasting and spreading disinformation and thereby interfering with an investigation. What is your location? We want to come and visit you. What is your full name?

I will admit to and apologize for misspelling Mr.Dicicco's name. Not sure what sort of lawsuit could be made for copy/pasting information, or spreading disinformation, but there is certainly a lot out there. You could say that it is also known as bunk.

I actually encourage any chemtrail believer to get themselves in court and see how their evidence stands up.

I did get another email from Al and will be calling him today as requested. He still hasn't taken me up on a debate here, but the invitation I made to him 5 months ago still stands, and I look forward to it. What chemtrail believers need to do before venturing into court is to test the waters by engaging in free and open debate. If you don't do well there, heading into court might put you liable for court costs incurred should you see your case thrown out. Loser pays and all that.

So, here is a starter for the debate. I'll let you take the affirmative.

If you had 5 minutes to address the US Congress and national TV networks to show your evidence, what would you use as the best, most irrefutable proof you could show in that amount of time?

The Chemtrail debunkers aka Government Contractors? Jay Reynolds has attempted to dispute Geoengineering when there are government docs, PSA's, and obvious dumps and evidence. He claims to be with the Coast Guard in Arkansas and told me on the phone The Gulf is all fine and people are thriving and shrimping again and Corexit is gone. I have not seen him address elevated aluminum, strontium mercury or other metals in our environment and bodies.