Dating Advice #157 - ABCs of Dating

Basic guidelines for getting the dating ball rolling.

I really feel I have no clue how to get this dating process moving. I am focused on dating for marriage, and I usually get to date 3 or 4, and then the girl breaks up with me. I've made it way past that one time, but it was so obvious the girl liked me I didn't have to even work at it at all.

Now I feel clueless about how to proceed in a courtship. I don't know how long dates should last, how to end a date that is going well, what kind of questions are good to ask on a date, who should take the lead in talking, what to do about telephone calls in between dates, and how to develop a courtship that seems to have promise.

Should we discuss our plans for the upcoming year and near future? If it doesn't come up in conversation, is it good to bring it up anyway? When and how is it appropriate to give a girl compliments? How does one know when to end a date -- it's sometimes hard to know if she is having a good time or if she wants to leave. Do women in general want a guy who will take charge? Some of these questions are really silly, but I would like some input, as I really value your opinion.

Dick

Dear Dick,

Your questions are by no means silly. We find that a large percentage of people who are dating for marriage don't have a good idea about how to develop a promising courtship. Years of working with singles have led us to the conclusion that contemporary singles should try to adapt old-fashioned courtship practices to their own lifestyle. The idea behind these "practices" is that it takes time for two people who think they have common values and goals to develop an emotional connection with each other, as well as the other ingredients that can form the foundation for a good marriage. It may take a focused couple as little as a few weeks to arrive at the realization that they are right for each other, while others may need several months.

We recommend that the first date be considered an ice-breaker. Meet for coffee or dessert, and plan on seeing each other for no more than two or two-and-a-half hours. You can even tell your date in advance that this is the time frame you feel a first date should follow. This gives the two of you a chance to feel more comfortable in each other's presence, minimizes awkward silences, and gives you something to build on for your second date. We also suggest that you go into the first date with no expectations other than you will be meeting a nice person with whom you have some things in common. Concentrate on simply meeting someone new and learning a little bit about her -- don't think of her looks, her mannerisms, or whether you think she'll make a good wife.

Steer away from deeply personal subjects, until you're more comfortable with each other.

If you find first-date conversation awkward, think in advance about the topics you can discuss and how you can develop them. Steer away from deeply personal subjects -- in other words, topics that can lead to a discussion about painful or embarrassing information, or deep feelings that should be reserved for when two people are more comfortable with each other.

Instead, talk about what it was like growing up in your hometown, what you like about the neighborhood in which you live, whether or not you've ever been to Israel and describe your experiences, or a hobby that interests you a great deal (including how you first became interested, what you have created or spent your time doing in connection with the hobby, your feelings when you work on a project).

Don't spend more than 10 minutes discussing your job, and don't go into long, boring details about the intricacies of your job description. Instead, why not explain why you chose the field you did, what you like and dislike about it, and some of your best or worst job-related experiences.

Remember that these conversations are two-way streets. Don't monopolize the discussion. If you realize that you are doing too much of the talking, stop, apologize for doing so, and ask your date some questions. It may be that you have to "lead" the conversation because the woman you are with is a little on the shy side. After you've described your own hobby, if she doesn't volunteer her own information, why not ask her what she most likes to do in her spare time, when she first became interested in her hobby, if she has produced or worked on any projects she really enjoyed or is proud of, etc. Don't be afraid to allow the conversation to get off on a small tangent.

All of the questions we have suggested will help each of you learn a little bit of the other person's history and how he or she feels and thinks. If you don't have a strongly negative reaction to your date, we recommend that you ask her out again, for a slightly longer second date. Try not to stretch the date beyond 3 hours (4 hours only if you are engaged in some kind of activity that prevents you from talking, such as a concert. Actually, we recommend waiting until at least the third date for this kind of activity, since the first two dates are better spent getting to know a little about each other). Save the longer dates for when you know each other a little better, and will feel less awkward with the periods of silence that every couple experiences.

If you plan on asking for a second date, do so within two days of the first date.

If you have a good time on a date, tell this to your partner. Or, you can say, "I enjoyed meeting you." Don't promise to call back if you have no intention of asking her out again (once again, we recommend asking her for a second date unless you had a very unpleasant experience, or realize that the two of you are definitely moving in different directions). Women should use the same guidelines to accept a request for a second date. If you plan on asking for a second date, do so within two days of the first date. If a man waits too much longer, a woman starts to doubt that he'll ever call, and as a defense mechanism against being hurt will start to lose interest. Even if the two of you are well-suited to each other, if you wait too long it will be difficult for the woman to regain the lost enthusiasm and want to go out with you again.

It takes many people two, three, or even four dates to realize there is something that they would like to explore further. That's why we cannot give you a hard and fast rule as to how and when to decide whether to keep going out or to stop seeing each other. It may take a few dates for you to realize that you enjoy spending time together, want to learn more, and are starting to develop a chemistry.

Sometimes, people keep dating because they realize the person they are seeing has many fine qualities, and really would like something to come of their courtship, even though they are troubled by something they view as a significant problem. (A few examples -- she doesn't seem to share your value system, his insecurity really bothers you, after five dates you still don't feel any physical attraction, you sense that she is too dependent on her mother's advice and approval.) They continue to go out, hoping that the problem will work itself out. In our experience, this doesn't happen. A courtship that leads to marriage often has small bumps in the road, but not major ones, especially ones that crop up very early in the dating process.

Here are some other topics of conversation that the two of you can explore as you continue to go out: your respective tastes in food, clothing, furniture, artwork and music. The differences and similarities in the way you were each raised. People whom you admire the most. Your favorite vacation. The way you would best like to spend a "free" afternoon. Your most treasured possession.

As you learn more about each other, introduce some more philosophical discussions -- your attitudes about honesty, for example, or a moving spiritual experience, something that made you decide to become more connected to Judaism and God, the importance of giving charity, etc.

If you would like to compliment her -- on an idea she has, the way she expresses herself, her appearance, an item of clothing she is wearing -- you can certainly do so, but be sincere. False compliments and undeserved superlatives are a turn-off.

By the fourth date, we recommend that the two of you engage in some interactive activities so that you see each other in different settings. Go fishing, take a tour of the botanical gardens, go paddle-boating or bowling, paint ceramics together, pack food packages for the needy, ask her to help you buy a birthday present for your mother, find a historical site you are both interested in seeing. Why not have each of you pack one half a picnic lunch, and go on a hike?

As you feel yourselves making an emotional connection, pick up on things your date says to show that you hear her and would like to make her happy. If she says she likes a certain kind of candy bar, why not buy her one? Buy her the newest CD from her favorite group. If she likes a certain flower, buy her one beautiful specimen.

Don't wait until you are both tired or the conversation starts to drag to end a date.

If you find that you really enjoy a date's company, feel that you are becoming more connected, and look forward to seeing her more and more, don't make the mistake of "overdoing" it. It is a good idea to have one or two long dates, in part to see how each of you reacts when you are tired and your guard is down, but limit the rest of your dates to 3 or 4 hours. Don't wait until you are both tired or the conversation starts to drag to end a date. You can say something like, "I'm enjoying myself, but I'd like to save some of this conversation for the next time we see each other. Why don't we go now, and talk about when we can see each other again?" Or: "I enjoy talking to you, but I don't want to stay out too late tonight. Can we call it an evening?"

Try to go on no more than two dates a week, although you can speak a few times during the week on the telephone, although we recommend against hours-long conversations. Give yourselves something to look for when you see each other face-to-face. Now that you are beginning to build a history together, you can talk about interesting or funny experiences at work or school, a news item that piqued your interest, or something you saw that reminded you of her. Eventually, and depending how focused the two of you are on engagement and marriage, you'll also discuss how you picture Judaism in your own home, the emphasis you feel each partner should place on Torah learning, community involvement, the kind of material lifestyle you would like to have, and how you would like to raise your children. As you become more comfortable with each other, other topics will flow from these.

Don't worry about whether the woman you are dating wants a "take-charge man." Be yourself, but display some self-confidence. If you are a little unsure of yourself, prepare for your dates by in advance by practicing conversation. Other ways to prepare for you date include selecting in advance where you will go (or two choices of locations you can present to your date), cleaning and gassing up the car, having enough cash or credit cards on hand so that you don't need to run to an ATM, etc.

Beyond this point, as questions arise, particularly when it comes time to think about becoming engaged, you may need a trusted, happily married person to act as your sounding board. We recommend that you find a married friend, preferably someone who has been married happily for a few years, to act as your dating mentor to answer the kinds of questions that will arise.

Featured at Aish.com:

About the Author

Questions for Rosie & Sherry can be sent to datingmaze@aish.com. Due to the large volume of questions received, they are unable to answer each one.

Rosie Einhorn (a psychotherapist) and Sherry Zimmerman (a psychotherapist and former family lawyer) are the authors of the newly-released book, Dating Smart – Navigating the Path to Marriage, published by Menucha Publishers. They are the founders of Sasson V'Simcha (www.jewishdatingandmarriage.com), a non- profit organization that provides programs and services in North America, Israel, and Europe to help Jewish singles and the people who care about them.

I’m wondering what happened to the House of David. After the end of the Kingdom of Judah was there any memory what happened to King David’s descendants? Is there any family today which can trace its lineage to David – and whom the Messiah might descend from?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:

Thank you for your good question. There is no question that King David’s descendants are alive today. God promised David through Nathan the Prophet that the monarchy would never depart from his family (II Samuel 7:16). The prophets likewise foretell the ultimate coming of the Messiah, descendant of David, the “branch which will extend from the trunk of Jesse,” who will restore the Davidic dynasty and Israel’s sovereignty (Isaiah 11:1, see also Jeremiah 33:15, Ezekiel 37:25).

King David’s initial dynasty came to an end with the destruction of the First Temple and the Babylonian Exile. In an earlier expulsion King Jehoiachin was exiled by Nebuchadnezzar, together with his family and several thousand of the Torah scholars and higher classes (II Kings 24:14-16). Eleven years later the Temple was destroyed. The final king of Judah, Jehoiachin’s uncle Zedekiah, was too exiled to Babylonia. He was blinded and his children were executed (II Kings 25:7).

However, Jehoiachin and his descendants did survive in exile. Babylonian cuneiform records actually attest to Jehoiachin and his family receiving food rations from the government. I Chronicles 3:17:24 likewise lists several generations of his descendants (either 9 or 15 generations, depending on the precise interpretation of the verses), which would have extended well into the Second Temple era. (One was the notable Zerubbabel, grandson of Jehoiachin, who was one of the leaders of the return to Zion and the construction the Second Temple.)

In Babylonia, the leader of the Jewish community was known as the Reish Galuta (Aramaic for “head of the exile,” called the Exilarch in English). This was a hereditary position recognized by the Babylonian government. Its bearer was generally quite wealthy and powerful, well-connected to the government and wielding much authority over Babylonian Jewry.

According to Jewish tradition, the Exilarch was a direct descendant of Jehoiachin. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 5a) understands Genesis 49:10 – Jacob’s blessing to Judah that “the staff would not be removed from Judah” – as a reference to the Exilarchs in Babylonia, “who would chastise Israel with the staff,” i.e., who exercised temporal authority over the Jewish community. It stands to reason that these descendants of Judah were descendants of David’s house, who would have naturally been the leaders of the Babylonian community, in fulfillment of God’s promise to David that authority would always rest in his descendants.

There is also a chronological work, Seder Olam Zutta (an anonymous text from the early Middle Ages), which lists 39 generations of Exilarchs beginning with Jehoiachin. One of the commentators to Chronicles, the Vilna Gaon, states that the first one was Elionai of I Chronicles 3:23.

The position of Exilarch lasted for many centuries. The Reish Galuta is mentioned quite often in the Talmud. As can be expected, some were quite learned themselves, some deferred to the rabbis for religious matters, while some, especially in the later years, fought them and their authority tooth and nail.

Exilarchs existed well into the Middle Ages, throughout the period of the early medieval scholars known as the Gaonim. The last ones known to history was Hezekiah, who was killed in 1040 by the Babylonian authorities, although he was believed to have had sons who escaped to Iberia. There are likewise later historical references to descendants of the Exilarchs, especially in northern Spain (Catelonia) and southern France (Provence).

Beyond that, there is no concrete evidence as to the whereabouts of King David’s descendants. Supposedly, the great French medieval sage Rashi (R. Shlomo Yitzchaki) traced his lineage to King David, although on a maternal line. (In addition, Rashi himself had only daughters.) The same is said of Rabbi Yehuda Loewe of Prague (the Maharal). Since Ashkenazi Jews are so interrelated, this is a tradition, however dubious today, shared by many Ashkenazi Jews.

In any event, we do not need be concerned today how the Messiah son of David will be identified. He will be a prophet, second only to Moses. God Himself will select him and appoint him to his task. And he himself, with his Divine inspiration, will resolve all other matters of Jewish lineage (Maimonides Hilchot Melachim 12:3).

Yahrtzeit of Kalonymus Z. Wissotzky, a famous Russian Jewish philanthropist who died in 1904. Wissotzky once owned the tea concession for the Czar's entire military operation. Since the Czar's soldiers numbered in the millions and tea drinking was a daily Russian custom, this concession made Wissotzky very rich. One day, Wissotzky was approached by the World Zionist Organization to begin a tea business in Israel. He laughed at this preposterous idea: the market was small, the Turkish bureaucracy was strict, and tea leaves from India were too costly to import. Jewish leaders persisted, and Wissotzky started a small tea company in Israel. After his death, the tea company passed to his heirs. Then in 1917, the communists swept to power in Russia, seizing all of the Wissotzky company's assets. The only business left in their possession was the small tea company in Israel. The family fled Russia, built the Israeli business, and today Wissotzky is a leading brand of tea in Israel, with exports to countries worldwide -- including Russia.

Building by youth may be destructive, while when elders dismantle, it is constructive (Nedarim 40a).

It seems paradoxical, but it is true. We make the most important decisions of our lives when we are young and inexperienced, and our maximum wisdom comes at an age when our lives are essentially behind us, and no decisions of great moment remain to be made.

While the solution to this mystery eludes us, the facts are evident, and we would be wise to adapt to them. When we are young and inexperienced, we can ask our elders for their opinion and then benefit from their wisdom. When their advice does not coincide with what we think is best, we would do ourselves a great service if we deferred to their counsel.

It may not be popular to champion this concept. Although we have emerged from the era of the `60s, when accepting the opinion of anyone over thirty was anathema, the attitude of dismissing older people as antiquated and obsolete has-beens who lack the omniscience of computerized intelligence still lingers on.

Those who refuse to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. We would do well to swallow our youthful pride and benefit from the teachings of the school of experience.

Today I shall...

seek advice from my elders and give more serious consideration to deferring to their advice when it conflicts with my desires.

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