1 <Day 6. Wednesday, 19th January 2000 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I wonder if I could ask you for a 3bit of help on really a logistical problem? Some of the 4source material that the experts rely on is fairly 5inaccessible. I was wondering if your team could provide 6me with copies of, I think, just three documents, report 7No. 51, that report from the Einsatzgruppen A, you know 8the one I mean, giving the partisans and the Jews killed? 9MR RAMPTON: Is that the Jaeger report? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. And also a document which I do not 11think actually I have ever seen, but Muller's's document 12of August 1941. 13MR RAMPTON: Yes, the Muller order. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I had those separately, it would make life 15much easier. 16MR RAMPTON: Certainly, my Lord. We have copies of originals 17of all of those. 18MR IRVING: Muller is in one of the bundles, my Lord. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure it is, but I have not actually seen 20it yet. Is there anything that needs to be done before 21Mr Irving goes back into the box? 22MR RAMPTON: I do not know whether he has anything. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you like to come back? 24< MR DAVID IRVING, recalled.25< Cross-Examined by Mr Rampton QC, continued.26MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I am going to start in Riga, then I am

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1going to go to Yugoslavia and then I am going to go to the 2Warthegau, just to complete my 1941/42 tour of the size of 3the operation, and also make reference to what is plainly 4in some cases direct language and in other cases 5camouflage language. That should not, I hope, take very 6long. Then I will go back to, as it were, 7historiographical error -- I use the word neutrally -- 8with the so-called Schlegelberger memorandum. 9 May Mr Irving, please, be given Professor 10Browning's report and at the same time files H3(ii), and 11H4(v)? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 13MR RAMPTON: Could one turn, please, to page 28 of Professor 14Browning's report? In fact, I will perhaps, because it 15will be important for context later on, start at the 16bottom of page 27, if I may, in paragraph 5.1.6: "Between 17October 18 and 21, 1941, the Foreign Office expert for 18Jewish affairs, Franz Rademacher" -- pausing there, 19Mr Irving, do you disagree with that description of Herr 20Rademacher's position? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
He was head of the appropriate department in section 2. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He had a special responsibility in the Foreign Office for 23Jewish affairs? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Among other things, yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. "and Eichmann's second deputy, Friedrich Suhr, 26visited Belgrade. After the trip Rademacher reported how

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1the adult Jewish men in Serbia had been shot by the German 2army." Do you notice that? They have not been shot by the 3SS, they have been shot by the Wehrmacht, have they not? 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is Browning's words. 5MR RAMPTON: Yes. But, if Browning is right, that is Wehrmacht 6and not the SS, is it not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
He has not given a quotation there for that. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, it may be that we would find it if we looked at 9Rademacher report? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you like to look at that now? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
No. I am not quite happy with that. In fact, you 13remember there is a page of photographs of this kind of 14thing in my book on the Nuremberg trials. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So not all the systematic -- I must not use that word, 16must I -- not all the mass shootings were done by the SS? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
No,. We do not know, of course, why they were shot. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
He has just reported how they were shot, but not why. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Perhaps we might be able to deduce that in a little while, 21Mr Irving. " Concerning the fate of the Jewish women, 22children, and elderly, Rademacher reported: 'Then as soon 23as the technical possibility exists within the framework 24of the total solution to the Jewish question, the Jews 25will be deported by waterway to the reception camp in the 26east.'"?

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you want to make a comment about that? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, of course, you are aware of the fact that I am going 4to comment on the fact that he has mistranslated "camps" 5as "camp". 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Camp", I see. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
There is a substantial difference. "Into the reception 8camps". I think it is a deliberate mistranslation by 9Professor Browning. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You must put that to him. I am not going to take it up on 11his behalf. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I certainly shall. I am also drawing it to the court's 13attention. It puts a totally different complexion on the 14document. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Put your eye down, if you will, to the bottom of the page 16where you see the German? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
"... In die Auffanglager..."? 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Professor Browning, if he has made a deliberate 19mistranslation, it is not a very clever thing to have done 20as he has also given us the German text against which his 21English can be checked. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I have no doubt he is obliged to, but we have spotted his 23error. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not do it in your books, do you, Mr Irving? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
You wish me in a thousand page book not only to put the 26English text of the documents, but the German text as