Why do you think so? They are not moslems, their background is Russian, thus, if religious, then orthodox christianity, but in this case they would not cry Allahu akbar. So, their background is almost certainly atheistic. And they are fighting fascism, which is of highest moral value in the Soviet/communist tradition. This tradition has also given a large number of people ready to fight, riscing their own life.

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I want people to reject the false, even if the resulting world is worse than before.

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Rejecting what is false definitely brings about a resulting world that is worse than before, but only temporarily. Think of those who convert to Christianity from Islam--but actually this goes for anyone who becomes a Christian.

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Because they are saying "God is great." That's not something an atheist says, unless a) they're not really atheists or b) they are lying for effect, to try to make people think they are religious.

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As I have explained, "lying for effect" was the reason. It was known that the ukrainian Nazis feared the Chechen fighters, and will with high probability run away, by crying "Allahu Akbar", they have tried to make them think they are Chechen fighters, thus, increasing the probability that the Nazis run away.

Rejecting what is false definitely brings about a resulting world that is worse than before, but only temporarily. Think of those who convert to Christianity from Islam--but actually this goes for anyone who becomes a Christian.

Have you ever seen intelligent thoughtful discussion taking place in a Sciforums thread? Sciforums is all about choosing one's "side" on any issue, then insulting those who are perceived as opponents, reducing them to caricatures. Sciforums is a profoundly unfriendly and anti-intellectual place.

Wow. It's pretty telling that atheists feel they have to lie to convince their enemies that they are religious, so that their enemies will believe them capable of violence.

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This was not really the point - first of all, all those fighting there on the novorussian side are voluntary there, thus, ready to fight and kill the Nazis, and are also able to do this.

The Chechens have simply a quite different culture, where fighting and killing abilities are much more important, with blood revenge as the method of conflict resolution. So, they simply have well-known qualities as fighters. The religion itself is, in this case, not the point, because it is a traditional Sufi variant of Islam, which is a quite peaceful direction in comparison with other islamic variants.

Not to derail this thread, but I am pretty sure neither side is composed of Nazis.

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Sorry, but even the US congress has identified at least some part - the bataillon Azow - as a completely open Nazi bataillon and explicitly forbidden cooperation with this bataillon. One would ask why the US congress cares about this, but the point was that it was already too well-known and impossible to hide that this bataillon has received some very special support from US instructors and Western mercenaries, so this was a sort of damage containment.

But essentially all the ukrainian volunteer bataillons are openly nazistic. Azow is only a little bit more radical than the others.

There is, of course, also the normal army, which is based on conscription. And the conscripts are, of course, not necessarily Nazis - they are, in this sense, comparable with normal German soldiers of the Wehrmacht, different from the Nazi elite formations SS and Waffen-SS which consisted of Nazis only (except in the last time, there has been also conscription to Waffen-SS).

So, summarizing, it is as reasonable to name the ukrainian forces today Nazis than it was to name the German forces in WW II Nazis.

The Ukrainian state is clearly and openly fascistic. The national hero is Stepan Bandera, the Ukrainian fascist leader, the founding day of the military organization of the Ukrainian fascists UPA, an organization which has organized a lot of mass killings of russian, polish and jewish civilians, has become a national holiday last year. So, this is no hidden analogy, this is open, demonstrative, symbolic support of the fascist mass murder tradition.

originTrump is the best argument against a democracy.Valued Senior Member

Sorry, but even the US congress has identified at least some part - the bataillon Azow - as a completely open Nazi bataillon and explicitly forbidden cooperation with this bataillon. One would ask why the US congress cares about this, but the point was that it was already too well-known and impossible to hide that this bataillon has received some very special support from US instructors and Western mercenaries, so this was a sort of damage containment.

But essentially all the ukrainian volunteer bataillons are openly nazistic. Azow is only a little bit more radical than the others.

There is, of course, also the normal army, which is based on conscription. And the conscripts are, of course, not necessarily Nazis - they are, in this sense, comparable with normal German soldiers of the Wehrmacht, different from the Nazi elite formations SS and Waffen-SS which consisted of Nazis only (except in the last time, there has been also conscription to Waffen-SS).

So, summarizing, it is as reasonable to name the ukrainian forces today Nazis than it was to name the German forces in WW II Nazis.

The Ukrainian state is clearly and openly fascistic. The national hero is Stepan Bandera, the Ukrainian fascist leader, the founding day of the military organization of the Ukrainian fascists UPA, an organization which has organized a lot of mass killings of russian, polish and jewish civilians, has become a national holiday last year. So, this is no hidden analogy, this is open, demonstrative, symbolic support of the fascist mass murder tradition.

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That all sounds a bit hysterical. I take it that you think that it is just fine that Russia has instigated and armed the rebels in Ukraine

That all sounds a bit hysterical. I take it that you think that it is just fine that Russia has instigated and armed the rebels in Ukraine

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How it sounds to you does not really matter, the open fascism in the Ukraine is a fact visible to everybody who is ready to look at it. And it was visible already before the regime change in Kiew, during the Maidan revolts. Together with the Western lies, who described as "peaceful demonstrants" armed attackers in camouflage who throw Molotow cocktails at the police, and all this under the same flags of the fascist Bandera movement. One of the greater demonstrations before the coup was a torchlight procession (an openly fascist tradition) on the birthday of Stepan Bandera.

The conflict between the fascist Maidan forces and the Antimaidan forces have been already violent before the coup. For example, the pogrom of Korsun So, to claim that Russia has instigated something is not correct, at the time of the coup the question if this becomes a civil war was already on the table.

The civil war would have started immediately if the Nazis would have tried to take power of the Crimea, which has never considered itself as being ukrainian, but was made ukrainian by a pure administrative decision of the (Ukrainian) Soviet leader Chrushtchow. And in fact the local population immediately started an uprising, which was immediately successful in Sewastopol and some other Crimean towns and close to take power in Simferopol too, with some deaths at a big demonstration before the parlament building. There have been already several thousands of volonteers for a local milicia and they have been supported with weapons from the former Berkut police which had to leave Kiew after the coup. At this moment, this uprising was supported also by some Russian special forces which have protected the parlament building and prevented an immediate start of a civil war.

And the people from the Crimea are very happy that this has happened. Else, they would have now something similar to the civil war in the other parts of the Ukraine.

Of course, once a fascist junta starts to bomb civil areas with artillery and airstrikes, as it happened in the Eastern Ukraine, it is completely legitim to support the defenders with weapons - all those weapons which are necessary to stop these attacks.

"Fascism" no longer has any meaning beyond "that which I disagree with."

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Not in the Ukraine. Stepan Bandera is a classical Ukrainian fascist, a fan of Mussolini and Hitler, his organization has followed the same extrem nationalist ideas, and started a genocid against Russians, Polish and Jewish people living in the Ukraine. The actual Ukrainian government is full of Bandera worshipping, his portraits, the flags and symbols of his organization, as well as of the Ukrainian formation of the Waffen SS, are everywhere.

And, no, this fascism is nothing the US or the West disagrees with. The leader of this fascist state has received standing applause in the US congress, after finishing his speech with the Ukrainian analogon of "Heil Hitler", which is "Slava Ukraine".

The utility of an idea has little bearing on it's truthfulness. I want people to reject the false, even if the resulting world is worse than before.

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Good and evil are not illusions. As evil is blind and unintelligent, while good is kind and caring. The objectivity of morality and God will help to unify humanity as we evolve. The true measure of a man is how he stands in the face of adversity. By all indications atheists are false to themselves in every way. Hence your ignorance. Unless you grow a pair and open your mind up to truth and reality, your blindness will land you in the sewers of Hell. So far you're a stain on sciforums.