“There is a war coming in Europe”

Germany and Japan both surrendered, unconditionally. There was no need for them to sign anything, they simply did as they were told as the defeated
party and agreed to as much by laying down their arms...

A single Battlegroup - of those 1,350 men, a good fraction will be support and non-combat like Royal Engineers, REME, Royal Signals etc - is hardly a
massive deployment or indicative of any War plans.

For example, in Iraq, the UK committed 45,000 troops (including support troops) and fielded a full Armoured Division comprised of 3 Brigades - roughly
10-12 Battlegroups worth.. It is worth pointing out here that in the British Army, a Battle group is not a set formation and can be comprised of a
variety of different elements, depending on the Mission. It is analogous to a US Task Force.

Germany and Japan both surrendered, unconditionally. There was no need for them to sign anything, they simply did as they were told as the defeated
party and agreed to as much by laying down their arms...

you sure ?
why did Germany needed till 1990 just to confirm the borders with Poland ??

The European Union agreed for the first time on Tuesday to impose broad sanctions against Russian oil companies, banks and defense firms, by far the
strongest international action yet over Moscow's support for rebels in eastern Ukraine.

The United States could announce new measures of its own "as soon as today", the White House said.

The measures mark the start of a new phase in the biggest confrontation between Moscow and the West since the Cold War, which worsened dramatically
after the downing of Malaysian flight MH17 over rebel-held territory on July 17 by what Western countries say was a Russian-supplied missile.

War is not coming.....Well probably not. What the PTB want is another cold war using proxy states. This will keep the military industrial complex
going on both sides of the world. They will use propaganda and nationalism to get the citizens in both countries behind whatever cause they want.

It is a dangerous plan and could very well lead to all out war. It is like walking a razors edge you need to keep the people afraid enough to
keep the flow on money coming but not so afraid they want to actually attack the other country.

Germany and Japan both surrendered, unconditionally. There was no need for them to sign anything, they simply did as they were told as the defeated
party and agreed to as much by laying down their arms...

You are wrong.......Really check it out you are 100% wrong. I will give you a hint......The awesome battleship Missouri papers were signed.

You need to read the historical background of that treaty before declaring me wrong.. It was a mere formality because West Germany didn't recognise
the existence of East Germany:

In the Potsdam Agreement of 1945, the Allies of World War II had defined the Oder-Neisse Line as the line of demarcation between the Soviet occupation
zone in Germany and Poland, pending the final determination of Poland's western frontier in a later peace settlement. The Treaty of Zgorzelec of 1950
between East Germany and the People's Republic of Poland confirmed this border as final. West Germany, which saw itself as the only legal successor
to the German Reich and did not recognize East Germany, insisted that final settlement on the Polish-German border could only be accepted by a future
reunited Germany. Although West Germany, for all practical purposes, accepted the Oder-Neisse border in the Treaty of Warsaw (1970), its legal caveat
that only a future peace treaty would formally settle the issue remained in effect.[3]

With German reunification finally within reach in 1990, the Allies of World War II made full sovereignty for Germany conditional on the final
recognition of the Oder-Neisse border, as stipulated in article 1.2 of the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany.[4] The signing of a
treaty between Germany and Poland recognizing the Oder-Neisse Line as the border under international law was also one of the terms of the Unification
Treaty between West and East Germany that was signed and went into effect on 3 October 1990. Poland also wanted this treaty to end the ambiguity that
had surrounded the border issue since 1945.

So, in a nutshell, the Germans lose the War, get divided up, the East Germans delineated the Polish border through a Treaty and after Unification, the
united Germany had to sign a new Treaty owing to their non-recognition of East Germany.

The only war coming to Europe is another sequel to a previous war. "Cold War Part 2 - Live Free or Die Hard" with Bruce Willis!! Putin knows
Europe/NATO are weak and has no ability to stop Russia from getting the band back together so to speak. Putin is former KGB and knows how to play the
game better than the other leaders around the world. Putin controls the media and infrastructure of Russia along with most of the natural gas Europe
receives. He has all the cards right now while NATO and the EU are sitting around trying to put a band aid on a massive chest wound! I see Putin
testing the waters or probing to see how the world reacts. So far, he is getting a green light to expand. Obama is useless both at home and abroad
and is in WAY over his head with Russia.

It has Russian outnumbered and outclassed in very department, be it land forces, aircraft or ships, population, industrial capacity, technology, you
name it. About the only edge Russia has is the amount of Nukes, yet that is a slim margin.

The only weakness NATO has is political - which can easily be brushed aside with continued Russian aggression - for example, had MH17 not been shot
down, it is unlikely the latest round of sanctions would have been anywhere near as severe or may not have even happened at all.

Yes, NATO is weak. I am not saying NATO is weak in numbers, planes, ships etc. I am saying NATO is weak politically in dealing with Russia. The
same goes for the EU, weak. So far Russia has not "seen the light" and the sanctions have not gotten anything done. Russia continues to supply
arms and resources to the Ukraine and the crash site of MH17 is still not secure is it? Putin knows Obama is a weak President that wants no part of
any conflict and he is using that knowledge to his advantage. NATO and the EU won't do anything without the US and Obama has shown many times a
severe lack of ability on the international stage.

Sanctions have been in place against North Korea for how long? How about Iran, sanctions in place for how long? What these countries understand
(Russia included) is power, show of force and right now the US is in a self imposed "time out" thanks to Obama.

Russians may well have more of a will to win. They have proven this time and again, willing to sustain massive losses in order to win in the end. I'm
not so sure NATO nations will be willing to sustain big losses. Russia still maintains a massive Empire of a land mass, they have fought hard to
maintain this. We like most other European countries have been reduced to joke status, losing due to international weakness in one generation a
massive Empire to the point today of (possibly in a few months time) not even controlling the whole of our small island. Russia has a hardened
military, proven to beat the best, Europes can't even suppress a bunch of Poppy growers in central Asia after ten long years of trying. NATO is not
the be all and end all some would have us believe.

originally posted by: DirtyD
Remember when Romney called Russia America's greatest geopolitical foe? Obama's response was, "The 1980's are calling and they want their foreign
policy back because the Cold War's been over for 20 years".

How's that working out for you Obama?

Yeaaaa but Romney didn't say that out of some sort of wisdom based on experience. He really did say that because ideologically, he's stuck in the
Reagan era.

Maybe, but Obama's response was based on even less wisdom and experience. I'm no fan of Romney, but he was right on this one.

Note: I'm not exonerating the US or demonizing Russia, just looking at the situation as a big game of Risk.

You cite Iran and North Korea as examples of sanctions not working, perhaps?

Then how come Iran has been brought to the table? Because they could no longer afford not to - crippling shortages of everything, trouble getting
finance etc.

As for NK - they only survive by brute force, coercion and China, without whom, they'd fold easily.

As for Russia, the sanctions are biting - they are now in recession, there is massive capital flight, they are now finding it harder to procure goods
and services for vital industries. Already, Oligarchs around Putin are turning the screw to back down and this is from a NATO and EU that is
"weak"... Imagine if they decided to actually do something serious about Russia...

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Russians may well have more of a will to win. They have proven this time and again, willing to sustain massive losses in order to win in the end.

They did it once and only because of a brutal Soviet regime forcing them too. Prior to that, they folded like a wet paper blanket in WW1 due to
crippling food shortages, massive casualties and war fatigue and were only saved from France (of all countries) in the early 1800's by the Winter.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
Russia has a hardened military, proven to beat the best, Europes can't even suppress a bunch of Poppy growers in central Asia after ten long years of
trying.

:lol@

I'm sorry, what? "Proven to be the best?" - they spent 10 years in Afghanistan too and failed miserably -15,000 killed, 50,000 wounded - worse than
we could ever dream of and were forced to pull out without achieving anything at all.

Then there is Chechnya - a decade fighting a small, poorly armed rebellion in the Caucasus and despite brutal tactics, they sustained massive
casualties - in the Battle of Grozny, they lost more tanks than the Battle of Berlin in 1945 - ultimately leading them to negotiate a ceasefire and
peace treaty.

originally posted by: BugOut
The only war coming to Europe is another sequel to a previous war. "Cold War Part 2 - Live Free or Die Hard" with Bruce Willis!! Putin knows
Europe/NATO are weak and has no ability to stop Russia from getting the band back together so to speak. Putin is former KGB and knows how to play the
game better than the other leaders around the world. Putin controls the media and infrastructure of Russia along with most of the natural gas Europe
receives. He has all the cards right now while NATO and the EU are sitting around trying to put a band aid on a massive chest wound! I see Putin
testing the waters or probing to see how the world reacts. So far, he is getting a green light to expand. Obama is useless both at home and abroad
and is in WAY over his head with Russia.

Putin knows only one thing and that is Russia's interests are badly hurt with Ukraine in NATO.

EU knows that both the sanctions and actual war will have Europe suffer the most while US will sit far away and watch.

Russia has no interest in expanding any further like Stalin did in WWII. However, it WILL create problems if any of the 'near abroad' nations try
to join NATO.

Vrs NATO, Russia is still comfortable when fighting a defensive war. Russia does not have force projection capabilities except for nuclear missiles,
spec ops groups and cyber warfare.

US will not get the World War that it is vying for.

Russia can also tell the EU and other NATO poodles that in the event of hot war, Russia will make sure that Europe will be "devastated beyond
repair" i.e. Russian focus will be on European slaves rather than the American masters.

Hope that will get through "very well" to the minds of European leaders. They are wise enough !

though i am a direct descendant of william the conqueror, and one of the oldest english families in north america, i tsk tsk you on you ".... france
(of all countries). emperor napoleon was a formidable foe, (just ask the rest of europe minus your island and russia. but i do agree that the only
thing that saved them was the winter. sorry, just had to speak up for the man i named my son after.

I know, it was a tongue in cheek remark - as an Englishman, I reserve the right (in fact, it is genetically part of being English) to crap on the
French.. I am well aware that their "reputation" as "cheese eating surrender monkeys" is not deserved in the slightest...

BTW, claiming to be a descendent of William the Conqueror is not exactly a claim to much, I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of people who can
claim that. You should also know, he wasn't French...

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