A: Usually, we explain consciousness but within consciousness there are different thoughts or no thoughts, but there is still consciousness.There are several types of consciousness and according to the Dzogchen way, it doesn't matter if they are rough or subtle - any kind of consciousness can disturb someone.

Nature-Awareness or Rigpa is completely beyond consciousness, any consciousness, whether it is pure, merits, sinful, good, bad - whatever consciousness there is, they are always negative. Dzogchen Rigpa is not this, not thoughts, it doesn't matter whether they are rough or subtle; Dzogchen is completely only Nature itself. After thoughts are released or liberated,this State is Rigpa.

Rigpa is nothing to do with senses or consciousness, it is completely beyond them, Nyugma. That is difficult to distinguish, I know. There are many books which explain a lot, but this is pure and according to out Dzogchen, we say Awareness isempty and Empty Nature is Awareness, it doesn't make much difference - Self is Aware of Self - Rang rig. Emptiness is special, very special. Emptiness is Self Aware of Self. We often give the example of a lamp. When a lamp is lit up there is no need to add any other light - it lights itself. Sometimes if someone is ready to be introduced to Nature, we give this example: self is clear to itself. This is not easy to catch in your ear – it goes in the air. But when you have experience, that makes it clear.

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

This is still very difficult to understand on an experiential level. One must doubt the experience. Sometimes I think of Rigpa as everything the brain is not.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:This is still very difficult to understand on an experiential level. One must doubt the experience. Sometimes I think of Rigpa as everything the brain is not.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Why doubt experience?

We must have some experience in abiding in the Natural State, which goes beyond conciousness, like Lopon Lak did explain.Out of the natural State or the State of Trekchod comes everything like the Lights, sounds and rays.

So abiding in Trekchod is the base to get rid of the thoughts of karma.When good practiced do thoughts automaticly dissolve into Nature, so left is the Natural State.

So one never must doubt these experiences, but also never the study about it. The study is reflected into ones practice as known or not known.Not knowing means Ma Rigpa.

Doubts should be banned by banning the thoughts or if one is experienced to let dissolve them into their Nature.It goes without effort and what is left over is the unspeakable State or the Natural State.That is the right time to let pass all kind of visions who come out of Nature and dissolve again into that same Nature.

So Thogal and Trekchod are insepareable connected but we must learn it step by step........

But thoughts can conflict meditation if we run after the thoughts or take care for them, or if we work them out.Thoughts are of empty nature, therefore everything is like that, so it is easy to let them dissolve into their empty nature.

Mutsog marroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

How can experience go or be beyond consciousness? Beyond consciousness means also beyond unconsciousness right? So it's a functioning experience that is beyond both consciousness and unconsciousness?

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:How can experience go or be beyond consciousness? Beyond consciousness means also beyond unconsciousness right? So it's a functioning experience that is beyond both consciousness and unconsciousness?

Tashi delek,

Thanks for the reply.

Experience of the Natural State is beyond thoughts and dualistic (un)consciousness . If we are consciousness about something we make use of object and subject.

This is not happening in the Natural State because all (thought(s), is / are dissolving into Nature or without grasping and following.

Here there is indeed no dualism or conciousness based on that duality.What is left is the Natural State experience which is an unspeakable State (of personal experience).

This State is never an unconsciousness nor a consciousness State it is the leap over these dualisms.

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Thanks for replying. About thoughts: even though thoughts might self-liberate I'm wondering if it is not the case that there is a consciousness as the background to this. Or is this consciousness that doesn't grasp also known as awareness? Is awareness the same as that consciousness that doesn't grasp? Or is it that you can't have a consciousness unless it is grasping?

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:Thanks for replying. About thoughts: even though thoughts might self-liberate I'm wondering if it is not the case that there is a consciousness as the background to this. Or is this consciousness that doesn't grasp also known as awareness? Is awareness the same as that consciousness that doesn't grasp? Or is it that you can't have a consciousness unless it is grasping?

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

No there is no consciousness there but left is this unspeakable State which must be experienced.This State is called Rang Rig or self-awareness.

So out of the Nature does come everything without the experience of an ego based person, if the person (can) abides in the Natural State.Left is here the experience of self-awareness, which is a spontaneaous experience without the willing to see, hear and thought or following / maintaining these visions.

So consciousness grasps whereas self-awareness is a liberated State, which can only be experienced.

Mutosg MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

I wonder if this is awareness is not just the unconscious undercurrent. By unconscious I don't mean blankness - but just the primitive state of being switched-on so to speak.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Right. I have to study some more about this distinction. I know it's an important distinction and I have to clear up my doubts about this. Thanks.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

What I understand about consciousness - from the senses all the way to Alaya is the idea of a duration - is that there is a supposed duration. What I understand about Rigpa that there is an absence - but at the same time a constant uniqueness. I don't think I can say more than this. It's impossible to say but in action it means not taking friends and enemies as true. Not using a past concept to condition the present.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:What I understand about consciousness - from the senses all the way to Alaya is the idea of a duration - is that there is a supposed duration. What I understand about Rigpa that there is an absence - but at the same time a constant uniqueness. I don't think I can say more than this. It's impossible to say but in action it means not taking friends and enemies as true. Not using a past concept to condition the present.

Tashi delek,

Dear Andrew, you realy must follow the introduction and do the practice, to get in the more comfortable mood of experience.

Sure knowledge would be important like at the moment, but you must experience the State without / beyond consciousness. That would mean an absence of thoughts / consciousness in that sense that they don' t disturb you if they do arise. Between the thought and thought there are no thoughts for a while and it is this experience you should meet in your meditation. That gap is not nothing but is called the Natural State / Trekchod or the leap over dualisms.Further are thoughts seen as clouds, they come and go, but the sun is allways shining.........

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Hi Mutsog,How do you know that the gap between thoughts is not consciousness?

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:Hi Mutsog,How do you know that the gap between thoughts is not consciousness?

Tashi delek,

Thanks for the reply.

I don't know this gap like i know Berlin, or how i know things at the very moment. With that consciousness, i have some experiences at the moment, that is anyway gone in the Natural State that is for me 100% sure.

The Natural State or gap between thoughts, is experienced like a non-expressible State which cannot explained by words, only by the experience of self-Awareness.

How to prove ?Just do it !, it is a personal experience not a general one.

Mutsog MarroKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD