Skepticism

EVENTS

Kirk Cameron is an idiot about so many things

Kirk Cameron recently casually and confidently said this about homosexuality:

I think that it’s unnatural. I think that it’s detrimental, and ultimately destructive to so many of the foundations of civilization.

He never said why he knew this, or how the behavior of people in the privacy of their bedrooms undermines the whole of civilization, but I assume it was simply because he’s been brainwashed by that old book written by patriarchal crankypants, the Bible. He now confirms my assumption.

I was surprised, frankly, that people were surprised by the things that I’ve said," he explained. "I have been consistent for 15 years as a Christian. I’m a Bible-believing Christian. What I would have thought was more newsworthy is if I had said something that contradicted the word of God, if I had contradicted my faith.

Codeword alert! Be wary of that phrase, “Bible-believing”. It doesn’t mean what you think it does. “Bible-believing” is actually a very narrow, very specific phrase used by modern evangelicals that means they fervently accept a remarkably literalist, radically right-wing, extremely judgmental and vicious version of Christianity. It means he really believes he has been privileged with the words of his god, and is justified in every hateful claim he makes.

He goes on to say that he hates no one, but he earnestly believes that almost everyone is going to hell, that we atheists are very much included in the ranks of the damned, and that he’s going to be chortling over our eternal torments someday, while he’s lolling about in heaven. So sure, he doesn’t hate you: he just coldly takes joy in his certainty that you will suffer for eternity, and that you deserve it.

Comments

A local boy kicked me in the butt last week
I just smiled at him, and I turned the other cheek
I really don’t care, in fact I wish him well
‘Cause I’ll be laughin’ my head off when he’s burnin’ in hell

Dutch Roman Catholic Church ‘castrated at least 10 boys': At least 10 teenage boys or young men under the age of 21 were surgically castrated “to get rid of homosexuality” while in the care of the Dutch Roman Catholic Church in the 1950s.

You really have to love “salad bar Christianity” (for varying values of “love”, of course). Here’s poor little Kirky, bleating about how “unnatural” homosexuality is based undoubtedly on Leviticus. It also says you can’t cut your hair and shave your beard, Kirk, so I guess you’ll be hanging out in hell with the rest of us (if you believe in that sort of nonsense).

“Beware ye, Kirk Cameron, for the true God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, has sent his prophet the Crocoduck to ye in visions. And yet all ye can do is mock the messenger of God! For ye shall be smited. First ye’r acting career shall walk the plank. Second, every time ye open ye’r mouth, ye shall be cursed to say something that shivers the timbers of the rationally sane. Thirdly, ye shall be forced to spend all your time with a crazy ex-New Zealander. For these are ye’r punishments. And so it has been written and so it shall be.”

I pity poor Kirk. Hopefully, one day he’ll wake up and look in the mirror and say to him, “Shit. I’ve been a complete ass.”

It helps spread viral/bacterial infections and increases the rate of cancer due to anal penetration.

I suppose you feel the same way about heterosexual intercourse, which increases the risk of cervical cancer due to vaginal penetration. It is best to stamp out heterosexual intercourse by prohibiting it.

1) It devalues human dignity and worth. There is a certain shamelessness and impudence about being gay, a woman, or a non-member of whatever relgion.

2) It helps spread viral/bacterial infections, because of the fear of birth control and lack of sexual education. (And increases the rate of cancer due to anal penetration from certain members of the clergy.)

3) It undermines the family as a social and biological unit, and confuses children by proposing multiple people of authority.

4) It creates problems in the military and the workplace.

5) If religion were ever to become predominant, it would lead to a rapid population decline and the end of civilization, as previously demonstrated by the dark ages of Christian Europe and the current unenlightened culture of certain Islamic states.

It is best to stamp it out by prohibiting it. There is no evolutionary advantage for our species going religious.

1. Don’t knock it unless you’ve tried it
2.18-25year old hetrosexual females have the higehest rates for STI transmission and infection
3. While marrying your sister or concubines or the many forms of marriage encouraged in the bible doesn’t
4. Just like those uppitty did
5. I know seeing those homosexuals having equal rights just makes me want to get a hunky man for myself.

So sure, he doesn’t hate you: he just coldly takes joy in his certainty that you will suffer for eternity, and that you deserve it.

It’s popular among some circles to say that the problem with Christianity has nothing to do with the religion. The religion itself is all about peace and love and tolerance. What goes wrong is with people: bad ones take a fine thing and distort it. They twist it into their own image — an image of war and hate and intolerance. So go after the specific individuals and groups. Criticize them all you want, because they’re not living up to the standards set by Christ.

I don’t agree with that. On the whole, I think most Christians — including Kirk Cameron and the gentle sixdays who is about to be eviscerated — are fine people. Ordinary people. Normal people, with the basic understanding of ethics and morality common to the human species.

The religion is fucked up. It’s rotten at the core and just gets worse the more seriously and literally you take it. Faith encourages people to think of people as tools or plot devices in a larger show. It gives them new “facts” to work with, and this is how they rationally derive the ghastly conclusions they do. Accept all their “facts” — and they often make sense.

But, as famously said, you have the right to your own opinion — but you do not have the right to your own facts.

WTF does ‘unnatural’ mean? I’ve never worked that one out. Is a dam unnatural if human-made, but natural if a beaver did it? And even if it were unnatural, so what? When did ‘not occurring in nature’ get conflated with ‘bad’? (Not to mention that it does occur in other animals.)

I think ol’ sickdays must be a supporter of the British MP Peter Bone (Tory) who thinks that same sex marriages will lead to the UK having two Kings or two Queens. That would be sooo cool, the people in the UK should be demanding that now.

Homosexuality is abominable and reprehensible for the following reasons:
1) It devalues human dignity and worth. There is a certain shamelessness and impudence about being gay.

A question: if someone does not see why homosexuality “devalues” human dignity and worth, what can you stand on to change their minds?

Gay families are real families. If your concern with homosexuality was really about the lack of children, you would be urging that gay couples either adopt or have/become surrogate parents. But you aren’t. It’s not about parenthood.

The opposite of “natural” is “supernatural.” Not “harmful.”

In and of itself, it causes no harm.

Your arguments don’t work unless you already think they work. That’s the sign of a really bad argument. You’re supposed to be able to persuade someone from common ground. So set out your common ground.

“Bible-believing”?
Okay Mr. Cameron, when are you going to give slavery the big thumbs-up that the Bible does?
Also, never once on that shitty excuse for a TV show he was on do I recall his impudence and dishonoring of his parents result in his being stoned to death (one can only dream.)

Sixdays, you haven’t responded to why you don’t obey Matt. 6:6-6:8, like any good xian would.

Since your imaginary deity made people gay, and he hates gays by your idiotic logic, then he made a mistake. That isn’t god-like behavior, which requires omnipotency. Or, is perhaps the mistake on the part of the homophobic writers of the babble by putting their phobias in place of your imaginary deity’s will, which is to use gays to show how you should be tolenerant, not one bundle of psychotic hate.

1) It devalues human dignity and worth. There is a certain shamelessness and impudence about being gay.

Okay, as counterfactual as ‘shameless’ is (I did not shed shame just because I started dating women. Rather the contrary, with her I am even more self conscious than I was before with dudes), what the hell is with impudence? When did being gay become /cheeky/?

2) It helps spread viral/bacterial infections and increases the rate of cancer due to anal penetration.

I love it when you patriarchal idiots ignore that lesbians have even less risk than normal! XD

3) It undermines the family as a social and biological unit

Only if you define ‘family’ as ‘Meriken nuclear family’.

and confuses children by proposing an unnatural lifestyle.

You know what’s not natural? Posting on the interwebz. You should stop doing it, if natural is so important to you.

5) If homosexuality were ever to become predominant, it would lead to a rapid population decline

We’re overpopulated as is, you idiot.

and the end of civilization.

Well, we’d have to restructure our society to get through a population loss, notably the parts where the population trends downward, but it doesn’t follow that civilization will end because there will be fewer of us. Also, since it’s biological it’s never going tob e predominant.

There is no evolutionary advantage for out species going gay.

Oh boy, I can tell you understand the words you just used, yessiree bob XD

2) It helps spread viral/bacterial infections, because of the fear of birth control and lack of sexual education. (And increases the rate of cancer due to anal penetration from certain members of the clergy.)

I hate this phrase, “Bible believing”. As P.Z. pointed out, it doesn’t really mean that they believe everything in the bible. For example, most Christians, including Kirk I would imagine, don’t practice the Old Testament (O.T.) prohibitions on eating shellfish and pork; most of them (thank goodness) don’t stone their children to death if they curse them; most don’t ask their wives to go live outside the city 7 days a month. Most don’t pay a dowry for to their wive’s father, or own slaves, and most think that polygamy is a sin. But all of these things are not only allowed in the O.T., they were commanded and/or specifically regulated by the law. They arbitrarily pick and choose certain parts of the Mosaic law, and discard the rest. What is sad is that most ‘Bible believers’ are completely unaware of how arbitrary their beliefs actually are, and are largely unaware of the claims made and errors in their bible. Interestingly, even for the parts they decide are still in effect, e.g., prohibitions on male homosexulatity, they reject the mode of punishment prescribed by the O.T. (stoning) and create their own new punishments (shunning and denial of basic rights of citizenship).

3) It undermines the family as a social and biological unit, and confuses children by proposing an unnatural lifestyle.

Funny enough, my children seem utterly unconfused by gay friends, family members and families
You know what would confused them?
If you told them that there’s something fundamentally wrong with their unle.
That they mustn’t see their uncle’s boyfriend anymore and that neither must their uncle who is therefore sad.
That there’s something wrong with their godfather (the word is better in German)
That their friend needs to lose one of her loving mummies.
That would really confuse them because who on earth would do such an evil thing?

It just occurred to me that there is an evolutionary advantage to homosexuality. It provides loving couples to raise the children of the brain dead who folk without protection and get babies they don’t want and won’t love.

My hypothesis is that human’s evolved our sexuality for the purposes of social cohesion. Co-opting pair bonding mechanisms and the benefits of coupling to solidify groups into being loyal and friendlier with each other to promote cooperation. Our widely diverse and plastic sexuality may have been selected because it united our social units with strong emotional bonds.

Correct me if I am wrong, but modern humans really have no need of evolution to succeed in the world today. If we have a problem with the world, we change something, ourselves, the world or our goals.

So saying gayness is a evolutionary problem is plain stupid.

Yes and no. Things like sickle cell trait and the like are very much elements of human evolution we still see. If we cure malaria we will affect that trait because we’ll have removed the pressure that selects it and preserves it. Our medicine will treat those with the trait and disorder after it’s use is gone so it won’t be a huge evolutionary pressure to wipe it out but the trait would become a lot more deluded if I’m not mistaken?

Homosexuality may or may not provide some type of group or societal advantage. It occurs in plenty of species, especially social ones. Maybe it is a natural type of population control, or limits the number of males, or maybe it is a natural variation whose benefit or detriment to survival hasn’t worked itself out yet. Plenty of homosexuals have gone on to have offspring regardless of their orientation. In a moral society I think we can all agree (I hope?) that evolutionary advantage is not the right way to decide about acceptability of behavior. In fact, since your name and comment suggest you are a biblical creationist, I am quite surprised that you would invoke evolutionary advantage as an argument. Happy trolling!

No, of course they don’t follow any of the inconvenient bits of the OT. They shave, cut their hair, don’t stone the breeders of mules to death, eat pork and shellfish and all the rest because Jeebus done come and told them the OT doesn’t count. Doesn’t seem to stop them from cherry-picking and waving the bits that support their prejudices. (Yo! Sixdays! Where in the Bible does Jesus mention anything at all about homosexuality?) I think most of them are simply afraid: afraid of the boogeyman, afraid of death, afraid of living, afraid of uncertainty, afraid of women and afraid of gays. They have to huddle together to feel strong and have someone they perceive as strong to lead them like a bunch of sheep; it’s terrifically sad, really. Laughable (except when they’re screwing with laws, science and education), but sad.

Homosexuality is abominable and reprehensible for the following reasons:

1) It devalues human dignity and worth. There is a certain shamelessness and impudence about being gay.

2) It helps spread viral/bacterial infections and increases the rate of cancer due to anal penetration.

3) It undermines the family as a social and biological unit, and confuses children by proposing an unnatural lifestyle.

4) It creates problems in the military and the workplace.

5) If homosexuality were ever to become predominant, it would lead to a rapid population decline and the end of civilization.

It is best to stamp it out by prohibiting it. There is no evolutionary advantage for out species going gay.

1. Is there anything wrong with being comfortable with who you are?
2. So does heterosexual sex. Eating meat, and breathing spread infections too, so are the abominable? The cancer bit is ludicrous as far as I can tell.
3. No, it doesn’t. See Gartrell, N, & Bos, H. US National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Psychological
Adjustment of 17-Year-Old Adolescents. (2010) Pediatrics, 126, 28-36.
4. No, it doesn’t. Noticed any major catastrophes related to homosexuality in Europe or any companies that do not discriminate against GLBT people?
5. According to biologists and psychologists, homosexuality, by its very nature will remain a minority compared to the heterosexual population. And would it be so horrible if there were fewer humans around? (Not that I’m suggesting mass murder. Best to head that strawman off at the pass.)

Please consider these facts before saying anything else that might force me to slam my head into my desk again.

Wait! I want to know which shamelessness and impudence there is, specifically, about being gay. This gay, who despises shame (is shameless), impudently demands answers (of his moral better, the Christian)!

Come to think of it, what’s wrong, per se, with shamelessness? It’s only bad if one has something to be ashamed of. As a descriptor, it neither adds to nor detracts from a debate about whether the subject in hand is bad in and of itself. It’s just verbal padding, like ‘unnatural’.

5) If homosexuality were ever to become predominant, it would lead to a rapid population decline and the end of civilization.

I think this runaway version of Kant’s ‘categorical imperative’ needs to be thought through a lot more, to put it mildly. First of all, there is no realistic possibility that even the most gay-friendly culture you or anyone else could imagine would or could result in the men and women in that culture no longer wanting to have sex with each other, so knock that hypothetical image right out. And consider also the many ways children could be produced without even that, so the doomsday scenario of a world devoid of human beings isn’t remotely plausible.

The moral principle you’re trying to use is being wielded too bluntly. If everyone suddenly became professional violinists — or zookeepers or priests or forklift operators — then our society would be in chaos. Madness, absolute madness: one and only one job and nobody to do any of the others. Clearly, being a professional violinists is disastrous for civilization. We need to forbid it by law, for our own safety.

Unless that’s not how we’re supposed to apply the categorical imperative.

Ah, sixdays, back for another beating I see? Good. Well cowboy-up you sub-human piece of Christian shit, because I’m really going to enjoy this…

1) It devalues human dignity and worth. There is a certain shamelessness and impudence about being gay.

As many have asked you, how exactly?

2) It helps spread viral/bacterial infections and increases the rate of cancer due to anal penetration.

Because vaginal sex is an completely antiseptic and sterile act that never results in health problems or disease.

What’s the matter sixdays? Jealous? Won’t your Stepford Wife slip on a strap-on and give you the good pegging you secretly desire?

3) It undermines the family as a social and biological unit, and confuses children by proposing an unnatural lifestyle.

Even if that were true, so what? If any institution is responsible for spreading neuroses, abuse, and contributes to a fucked-up adulthood it’s got to be “the family.” If any institution should be undermined and destroyed it’s got to be the fascist, patriarchal, and domineering “traditional family.”

4) It creates problems in the military and the workplace.

Only for the bigots–like yourself–who won’t tolerate it.

5) If homosexuality were ever to become predominant, it would lead to a rapid population decline and the end of civilization.

How would homosexuality become predominant, sixdays? Is gay/lesbian sex so much more pleasurable than heterosex that we’ll abandon it entirely just we can have some hot, hot same-sex lovin’?

And how would you know?

As for a “rapid population decline,” you say that as if it were a BAD thing. This planet is already 7 billion humans deep and climbing, an economic and environmentally unsustainable situation not helped each time a Christard craps out another kid to add to the eight or more they already have.

It is best to stamp it out by prohibiting it.

First you want to outfit atheists with mandatory RFID chips, now you want to create a sexual police state that will monitor what people do with their genitals.

Tell me, is this what you right-wing assholes mean when you ramble about “limited government?”

There is no evolutionary advantage for out species going gay.

You really don’t do irony very well. I’ve always said that humor and wit requires one to possess a certain amount of irreverence and since religion and conservatism is all about reverence…

3) It undermines the family as a social and biological unit, and confuses children by proposing an unnatural lifestyle.

Do you know what else is ‘unnaturtal’? Antibiotics.

You really shouldn’t use any of that oh-so unnatural modern medicine at all. Sure, the next time you get a minor cut or graze there will be a significant chance that you will die from blood poisoning, and if you ever need any kind of surgical procedure then it will be curtains for you, but at least you will be in with your nasty, Bronze Age deity…

… Except for the whole absolute lack of evidence that it exists at all. Oh well, you’ll just be dead for no reason then, but at least you will have been true to your own titanic idiocy and bigotry, right to the very, bitter (and most likely agonisingly painful) end.

Unless you care to admit here and now that you are a hypocrit, that is…?

…and unstigmatised, I’d be willing to lay a large-ish bet that most people would turn out to be bisexual to some degree, with exclusive heterosexuality being roughly on a statistical par with exclusive homosexuality.

Ah, Gregory, you’re so silly! What need has Six for your antibiotics? Right there in Leviticus next to all the bits about the people you’re supposed to murder is the cure for leprosy. All he’ll need is a couple doves, some cedar wood, some “scarlet” (Pimpernel? O’Hara? Dunno.) a dash of hyssop and boom! Leprosy is gone, so it must be good for infections. Excuse me, but I need to dash off and convince my house-rabbit that he really should be chewing cud. He insists that consuming cecotropes is the way to go, but dang it! I won’t have a godless rabbit in *this* household! ;)

It’s popular among some circles to say that the problem with Christianity has nothing to do with the religion. The religion itself is all about peace and love and tolerance. What goes wrong is with people: bad ones take a fine thing and distort it. They twist it into their own image — an image of war and hate and intolerance. So go after the specific individuals and groups. Criticize them all you want, because they’re not living up to the standards set by Christ.

I kind of agree with Banana Man (scary thought). If he’s a christian then he’s supposed to hate homosexuality, isn’t he? Why is anyone surprised? What bugs me is people who get all upset about what he says, but still try and reconcile it with their god belief.

Now, now. I know waiting in line for your turn to have Ghey Secks with Brownian can be frustrating, but that is no excuse for trying to jump the line. Remember, the rest of us in that line are just as impatient.

they fervently accept a remarkably literalist, radically right-wing, extremely judgmental and vicious version of Christianity

Evangelical, fundamentalist Christians certainly like to believe they adhere to a “literal interpretation” of the Bible, but they fail to recognize the oxymoron. In fact, they appear to have practically no knowledge of the “literal” Bible, but focus on interpretations that fit their preconceived notions, prejudices, and biases. Then they promulgate this as “The Word of God.”

I wish Mr Cameron and all the other commentators who oppose homosexuals would first: kindly explain why someone’s sexual orientation is any of their business. Second: exactly how same-gender marriage effects them. Third: if their god is so opposed to homosexuals and same-gender marriage, why hasn’t it taken care of business directly instead of raising up a crop of punk prophets?

Well, I guess that works for bonobos, but I’m not so sure about humans. Jealousy is pretty much the opposite of a force for social cohesion.

Yes but that would have come later with the discovery of animal husbandry and realization that sex == pregnancy + property rights causes males to horde females as property. Remember that even in traditional marriage monogamy wasn’t the norm…and there are people today who can/do seperate love/sex or do not feel jealousy about sex but would for emotional intimacy. Furthermore behaviors we see such as nonsexual homogendered bonding may be adapted and coopted courtship behaviors.

Leading up to the 2008 presidential election, while trying to nail down Sarah Palin’s religious superstitions, I noticed her wikipedia page quoted her referring to herself as a “Bible-believing Christian,” and also that wikipedia has a page for Bible-believer, which among other things explains that in many circles it refers to a belief in biblical inerrancy—so I added an internal link from Palin’s quote to the page, and someone changed it back. So I debated with a few people briefly, they contended that it was incorrect to link from within quotes since we couldn’t be sure exactly what she intended by the phrase, and I soon conceded that since she wasn’t super-explicit and upfront about her beliefs we could drop the matter. But I suspected that the phrase was a code-word to signal to the religious right that she’s with them, while not sparking the opposition that fundamentalist or young-earth creationist or similar more commonly known terms evoke in

Sometimes I think that jail time might be worth it, to give Kirk Cameron, what we here in South Africa call a Poes Klap.

*Sigh*. Ai toggie tog.

No. Just no. You look like a nice oke plus I have a soft spot for other ZA atheists, so Imma ask you nicely: please refrain from gendered insults and slash or slurs. Including the Afrikaans versions. Still offensive.

***

The Bible thumpers are scary enough, but the Bible Literalists/believers? Beyond scary.

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I kind of agree with Banana Man (scary thought). If he’s a christian then he’s supposed to hate homosexuality, isn’t he?

Not necessarily.

As noted, all Christians; indeed, all people of all religions, cherry-pick what they want to believe in from the bible (or koran or other religious text or set of beliefs).

It’s certainly possible to only cherry-pick the nice and friendly parts of the bible, including the “love everyone equally; treat everyone fairly” bits, even though those are a tiny fraction of what the bible says.

Why is anyone surprised?

I don’t think anyone is surprised.

What bugs me is people who get all upset about what he says, but still try and reconcile it with their god belief.

Well, I get annoyed by the sweetness-and-light cherry-pickers too, but only because they try and suggest the bloodthirstiness and cruelty in the bible isn’t “real”, or is a “misinterpretation”.

But I kind of prefer intellectual dishonesty that is in favor of “love everyone equally; treat everyone fairly”, rather than intellectual dishonesty like that of sickdaze above, that advocates cruelty, bigotry, and injustice, based on logical fallacies and distorted and dishonest interpretations of reality.

Let me just state that I am equally opposed to the sexual perversions of heterosexuals who engage in fellatio, cunnilingus and anal sex. These are all deeply degrading and humiliating habits, but such is the moral breakdown in our society that they are viewed as sport and recreation. Needless to say, doctors all recommend straight vaginal sex and the forgoing of all unnatural practices. They are spreading sickness and disease in society and must be expurgated.

As for population control, I think infertility, contraception and abstinence can take care of this. Besides, many gays people do have offspring which proves that theirs is a LIFESTYLE CHOICE and that they do not act out of biological necessity.

My advice to gays: repent and reform yourself before it is too late. As Jesus said, it is better to cut off your and or pluck out your eye than to sin and burn forever in the fires of hell as punishment (Matthew 5:27-30).

Let me just state that I am equally opposed to the sexual perversions of heterosexuals who engage in fellatio, cunnilingus and anal sex. These are all deeply degrading and humiliating habits, but such is the moral breakdown in our society that they are viewed as sport and recreation. ,

I just want everyone to know that I do hold gold and silver medals in both the 100 meter and free style cunnilingus/fellatio

As for population control, I think infertility, contraception and abstinence can take care of this. Besides, many gays people do have offspring which proves that theirs is a LIFESTYLE CHOICE and that they do not act out of biological necessity.

Someone should do something about this Christian life style choice that is fucking up America.

Goodsex is any form of sex considered acceptable by the Party; specifically, this refers only to married heterosexual sex for the exclusive purpose of providing new children for the Party. All other forms of sex are considered sexcrime.

But Chigau! If you put the pepewewestick anywhere but the woowoovajayjay as God intented it’s like you’re LYING to it! You’re lying to all the little jizysploguesperm who think they’re going to make a baby!

No fellatio or cunnilingus (or to give them their proper terms, Horatio and Cumulonimbus…mustn’t frighten the horses)? Why I bet sex with you is a laugh riot. Oral comes as standard, old bean.

Anyway, if a person’s sexuality is a “lifestyle choice” as you claim it is, Sixdays, how about you and me nip around to the back of the bike sheds for a quick one on one, man on man, hot sexy-time thingy? Hell, I’m married to a lovely woman, but I’ll take one for the team just to watch your head spin. How’s about it big guy? Let’s say we choose to be gay! Now make like a good boy and suck my cock.

What’s that? No you say? You’re straight? Hmmmmm but I thought it was a choice to be gay. So choose. Whaddya mean NOW it’s not a choice? Tut tut. Now don’t go telling me you don’t want to choose to be gay, I need proof of your claims. So prove them…big boy.

I’m desperately trying to remember the day I chose my sexuality. I think it was after my wife and I got married. She let me chose out of a series of approved options. Luckily, they are all filthy and would probably blind Sixdays if he were to read descriptions of them.

Let me just state that I am equally opposed to the sexual perversions of heterosexuals who engage in fellatio, cunnilingus and anal sex. These are all deeply degrading and humiliating habits, but such is the moral breakdown in our society that they are viewed as sport and recreation. Needless to say, doctors all recommend straight vaginal sex and the forgoing of all unnatural practices. They are spreading sickness and disease in society and must be expurgated.

As for population control, I think infertility, contraception and abstinence can take care of this. Besides, many gays people do have offspring which proves that theirs is a LIFESTYLE CHOICE and that they do not act out of biological necessity.

My advice to gays: repent and reform yourself before it is too late. As Jesus said, it is better to cut off your and or pluck out your eye than to sin and burn forever in the fires of hell as punishment (Matthew 5:27-30).

Firstly, the sources you cite are rather poor. Secondly, how, exactly, do the listed practices contribute to societal degeneration more than the existence of people like you? The very idea of sodomy laws is so repugnant to people of intelligence and caring that I won’t even address that proposition.

What, exactly do you mean by “infertility?” Because if it’s what I think it is, that won’t be very popular among normal people either. Apparently you are in favor of contraception, or is that only so you can argue against “teh gheyz?” Because abstinence really works. GLBT people have children (normally by adoption) because they want children. The concepts of wanting children, but referring relationships with individuals of the same sex are not mutually exclusive. And don’t give me any of this lifestyle choice bullshit, because if that were true, your torture camps might actually do something besides traumatizing children.

And on your last bit, all I can say is fuck you, you small-minded hate-filled bigot.

I hate this phrase, “Bible believing”. As P.Z. pointed out, it doesn’t really mean that they believe everything in the bible.

It would be helpful if these soi-disant Bible believers actually put in a bit of effort and read the Bible.

The writers of the OT Mosaic books had very little problem with homosexuality as such; their big thing was mixing things up. For example: mixed fabrics in your clothing, milk and meat cooked together, marriage outside the fictional twelve tribes, following different gods, etc. Homosexual behaviour was just another example of this.

As to the other few texts that mention homosexuality, (only 7 to 9 in the entire Bible, depending on the translation used) the other OT strictures are against using temple prostitutes, as was done in other religious traditions. (“Don’t mix religions! One God! One temple! “One faith, one baptism,” as Paul says.)

“Jesus” never mentions it. Whoever was writing as Paul does mention it; he has trouble with sex, irrespective of genders. Even so, what is it? Three references, depending on the translation used?

They’re in the same boat with abortion; it is mentioned once in the whole Bible*, and what it says is essentially, “No biggie. Pay the father a fine.”

Marriage? Biblical marriage? One man, as many women as he can afford or capture or rape. No choice on the part of the woman needed or even asked for.

Modern Christianity seems not to be so much about believing the Bible as about sex, sex, sex, using an unread “inerrant” text as an excuse.

*If you omit the couple of references to war; ripping women’s bellies up with a sword. Not about abortion, really, but about exacting vengeance on your enemy by destroying his property.

Let me just state that I am equally opposed to the sexual perversions of heterosexuals who engage in fellatio, cunnilingus and anal sex. These are all deeply degrading and humiliating habits, but such is the moral breakdown in our society that they are viewed as sport and recreation.

Every time I say to myself, “Audley, this sixdays character can’t possibly get any creepier”, sixdays goes and acts even creepier.

I know this is a personal question, sixdays, but have you actually had sex before?

As for the throat cancer link (which I didn’t read, sue me), thoat cancer can be caused by HPV, which is also what can cause cervical cancer. And how do the laydeez contract HPV? Penis in vagina “sixdays approved” sex. O.o

Also, I asked about 1 Samuel 20. Care to comment on that particular chapter?

We here at LouisCorp would like to apologise for past, present and future sex jokes. The level of sex jokes will not rise above the sophomore level, and will probably be remarkably lewd, crude, prurient, puerile, and just down right vulgar.

However, that will not stop us. We here at LouisCorp are dedicated to knob jokes. We are rededicating ourselves to sniggering about weewees and hoohoos in the presence of po-faced prudes and pissy little whiners who think that sex is naughty.* If your religion is preventing you from enjoying the full range of sexual acts that two (or more) capable, consenting adult humans can engage in then it’s time for your religion to get gone.

As the wise man in the song says: Keep your Jesus off my penis, I’ll keep my penis off of you.

Just because it feels good does not make it morally right. Some people may find raping and killing babies good, but most of us consider it to be outrageous. Furthermore, as PZ Myer’s own pretty little daughter has suggested, why not have sex with your pets? Why not take Woofy and Purrr up the rear end? If everyone consents to and enjoys it, then so what? That is your perverted liberal way of thinking – I find it repugnant.

As for masturbation, I think some sexual experimentation and investigation is acceptable, but I would not make a habit of it.

Finally, let me just say something about sex: I consider it to be as much an emotional act of union as a physical one. If you reduce it to the level of penises and vaginas, breasts and anuses, then you are missing out on the whole experience.

Also really? Skatje compared gays to people who fuck animals? I missed that link?

Finally, let me just say something about sex: I consider it to be as much an emotional act of union as a physical one. If you reduce it to the level of penises and vaginas, breasts and anuses, then you are missing out on the whole experience.

OOOOOOOOOOOH you’re one of those “mind sex” deviants. Don’t you know the neural scaring that causes!?

Some people may find raping and killing babies good, but most of us consider it to be outrageous. Furthermore, as PZ Myer’s own pretty little daughter has suggested, why not have sex with your pets? Why not take Woofy and Purrr up the rear end? If everyone consents to and enjoys it, then so what? That is your perverted liberal way of thinking – I find it repugnant.

Glove off now, fuckface.

How fucking dare you compare being LGBT to such acts. They are not at all comparable.

Also, you fucking bigot, if you know enough to toss what Skatje said, you also know what the response is. Animals cannot give consent.

Now fucking drown in the cesspool that you crawled out of.

Behold what this fine christian who only wants the best for the sinners thinks of the like of me.

I might as well be raping and murdering babies. Guess what, fuckface, nothing I have said is as hateful and disdainful as what you push.

Baby raping and murder =/= any sexual act between consenting adults. The same applies to bestiality and any of the other drivel you fantasise about.

You seem to have a very flawed idea about what “consenting adults” are. They are two or more human people that consciously and expressly agree to engage in a specific act. Be that beach volleyball or jiggly-jiggly balls.

So keep that oh so fictional slippery, slippery slope of yours to yourself.

Louis

P.S. Decided whether or not you are going to suck my cock yet? After all, it’s just a choice…right?

All of these arguments are false, of course, but worse than that, they’re dishonest and cynical. The fundies don’t hate gay people because of AIDS. (And worldwide, it’s hardly a “gay disease.”) Before AIDS, the fundies hated the gays just as much as they do now.

And the argument about confusing the children has never made sense to me. My son is 9. He knows gay people. He knows plenty of kids with two moms. (Don’t think he knows anyone with two dads.) “Explaining” this to him was as easy as saying, “Most people get romantic feelings for people who are the other sex. Some people get romantic feelings for people of the same sex.” The end. He accepts that homosexuality is a part of human society. There’s no confusion, no fear, no reason to judge anyone. There are different ways for people to go about their lives. My 9-year-old has already learned more than sixdays.

Some people may find raping and killing babies good, but most of us consider it to be outrageous.

Oh, for chrissakes, read your fucking Bible. The recommended penalty for raping an unwed virgin is to pay her father 50 shekels and marry the victim.
And there’s Psalms 137:9: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dash thy little ones against the rocks.

Yes, most of us consider it to be outrageous, which is why we mostly think the Bible is shit.

Jesus Christ, sixdays. You’ve gone from creepy to probably has spent time in prision for sex crimes real fast.

I still would like to know exactly how sexual pleasure is harmful. Are you just jealous that the rest of us aren’t so goddamned twisted? I mean, you’re the one bringing up sex with animals and acting like a fucking creeper over PZ’s daughter, not us.

sixdays
You are getting stupider.
—
for the info of the Hoard
I just tried to post the above comment and was informed that I had already posted that comment.
True.
At #17.
I’m not allowed to repeat myself 100+ comments later?

Unless something major has changed, no she does not think that or anything remotely like it.

I think the comment she made was along the lines of “in principle animals can consent to sex” but I a) can’t remember accurately if that’s all she said, b) can’t remember where she said it and c) am absolutely not googling it!

So, has sixdays ever tried any of the numerous sexual acts that sixdays decries? If not, how does sixdays know that they are so bad? Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it, sixdays. (Speaking of consensual sex, of course, which rules out bestiality and more, but nothing between two or more informed and caring adults.)

Just because it feels good does not make it morally right. Some people may find raping and killing babies good, but most of us consider it to be outrageous. Furthermore, as PZ Myer’s own pretty little daughter has suggested, why not have sex with your pets? Why not take Woofy and Purrr up the rear end? If everyone consents to and enjoys it, then so what? That is your perverted liberal way of thinking – I find it repugnant.

As for masturbation, I think some sexual experimentation and investigation is acceptable, but I would not make a habit of it.

Finally, let me just say something about sex: I consider it to be as much an emotional act of union as a physical one. If you reduce it to the level of penises and vaginas, breasts and anuses, then you are missing out on the whole experience.

Wait, whaaa… You just tried to jump from non-vaginal sex to bestiality. Rick Santorum did that once, and that’s why you really shouldn’tshould Google his name. Great bit of fallacious bullshit though.
—

Now, if you could find me some gay neutrinos having butt sex* faster than the speed of light, you might have a case. But that was just a faulty wire.

You owe me a keyboard that isn’t covered in tea. Also, you may collect your sniny internet at TET.

That idea of zoophilics is another topic and one I’m not versed well enough on, though I’ve been made familiar of the base arguments AFAIK. The idea is that if someone enjoys jacking off horses and horses like being jacked off what is the ethical problem as long as the horse is not injured. I do not have a fully formed opinion yet but It’s still nothing to do with gays.

Absolutely it has NOTHING to do with homosexual people or sex. Dear FSM, I would never claim otherwise!

Sixdays is referencing an old, old conversation people had with Skatje on the SB site about bestiality (IIRC). A particularly odious (then banned) fundamentalist called FTK was involved (hence my question in #120).

All I was trying to do was accurately report one part of that conversation, or at least explain the reference to it. Not to take a position on its subject.

No, I have no intention whatsoever of degrading myself by sucking on the genitals of any man, woman or beast. I have self-respect, something you atheists and gays don’t seem to have. Like I say, you are shameless and impudent. You have confirmed this for me.

I also have no intention of ramming my person up the canal where feces is excreted. That is abominable. It is not what either God or Nature intended for us to do either.

I don’t care if you lot find it exhilarating and pleasurable. It is still perverse and must be condemned and not tolerated.

Oh but honey! You claimed that homosexuality is a choice. I don’t believe you. In fact I claim that you are wrong and all I am asking for is proof. All you need to do is choose to suck a dick and then chose not to once again. Easy. What are you afraid of?

Is sucking a dick too far? How’s about a big, wet, kiss? I promise not to use too much tongue.

janine and Louis: I’m getting ready turn on the auxiliary snark generator. I’ve already had the backup logic/stupidity blasters on full power for awhile. Finger is on the swearing regulator “OFF” switch.

I disagree. You have no respect. You have no respect for your so-called holy book. You have no respect for the history of Christianity. You have no respect for other humans. You have no respect for the meaning of the word ‘natural.’ You have no respect for pleasure. You have no respect for women. You have no respect for rationality. You have no respect for reason. You have no respect for Leviticus. You have no respect for other commenters on this blog.

I don’t care if you lot find it exhilarating and pleasurable. It is still perverse and must be condemned and not tolerated.

Everything above this is bullshit already blasted to hell by other commenters. I want to take this bit on. To whom, exactly, is it perverse? You and your fundie friends? Well you are not get to be the arbiters of morality, you do not get to fucking define the word perverse. Not when your own Bible is so fucking full of God-approved murder, rape, torture, oral sex (check Song of Songs if you don’t believe me) that you loose all credibility. And that doesn’t even start on what you and your clergy do, both in the name of “God” and to satisfy their own sexual desires. Priests rape children for fuck’s sake.

I have self-respect, something you atheists and gays don’t seem to have.

You seem to confuse self-respect with self-righteousness, which is a really, really obnoxious personality trait. Anyhow, you’ve just confirmed that you have no respect for people who don’t share your narrow bigoted views. Congrats for making xians look like arrogant, self-righteous, naive prudes. We couldn’t do it any better.

Like I say, you are shameless and impudent.

We have no reason to be ashamed, least of all the mindless opinion of an arrogant, self-righteous, naive prude who thinks the definition of “immoral” has to do with what xe finds icky.

1) Homosexuality is a social CHOICE not a biological fact. There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

2) Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

3) Pleasure is not intrinsically and morally good. A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

4) Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

5) Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it. But they are degrading and harming themselves, and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom –sixwaystillsunday

Post Lawrence v. Texas, you mean, in the USA.

Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it. –sixwaystillsunday

It’s not that we are removed from reality, it’s that we don’t deny reality. And yes most of us these days do positively revel in it when we can. Are you jealous of that or something? What’s the problem with us enjoying being gay?

Yeah, it’s clear that Sixdays is completely unable to respect any one else or their rights because he has ZERO respect for himself.

This is what religion does to some people – erase all sense of actual self and respect and instead replace it with an indoctrinated god bot filled with righteousness and fear (as in FEAR the LAWD) in stead of a mind. I’m not even kidding about this.

Sixdays, you are a vile, vile specimen and a walking advertisement for why atheism is a good choice both in terms of mental health and societal health.

1) Homosexuality is a social CHOICE not a biological fact. There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

Impressive. You contradicted yourself. In one paragraph.

2) Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

You do not see the difference between pleasure between two consenting adults and a consenting adult pleasuring hirself with an animal which cannot give consent? Scary.

3) Pleasure is not intrinsically and morally good. A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

Which you ‘holy’ book makes abundently clear. Killing babies (of another group) is good! so says your gods.

4) Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

And society’s leaders, by which I assume you mean preachers, are a bunch of sick voyeurs who are desperately afraid that others are actually having a good time without guilt.

5) Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it. But they are degrading and harming themselves, and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

You do know that your gods say that lying is a sin? I think it is in the Eleven Commmandments. Or is it Twelve? Ten? Whatever. Why do you keep lying when your gods are watching you? What, you’re immune because lying for Jesus is okay?

1) Homosexuality is a social CHOICE not a biological fact. There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

2) Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

3) Pleasure is not intrinsically and morally good. A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

4) Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

5) Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it. But they are degrading and harming themselves, and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

1. Nope, its not. And there are plenty of theories regarding how homosexuality survived natural selection. Wikipedia discusses them. Go take a look.
2. Really? How about lack of enthusiastic consent.
3. Again, you don’t get to talk about morality here, your Babble took that ability away from you.
4. How, may I ask is oral sex undermining society any more that the existence of churches?
5. If GLBT people are sometimes removed from reality, it is because bigots like you have made reality so painful for them that they prefer their own reality. And there is nothing wrong, in any way with GLBT people. Really, go meet some in real life, they’re mostly quite nice, exactly like straight people. That bit about life expectancy is pure bullshit though.

1) Homosexuality is a social CHOICE not a biological fact. There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

Lies. Take out your head out of your ass, and read a bit.

2) Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

That’s ’cause you have no idea what “morality” means.

3) Pleasure is not intrinsically and morally good. A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

FFS, what don’t you understand in the words “consenting adults” ? What the freaking fuck homosexuality has to do with “killing baaaaabiiiiiieeees” ?

4) Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

And how the freaking fuck, pray tell, is homosexuality “undermining society’s fabric” ?

5) Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it. But they are degrading and harming themselves, and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

They’re not degrading themselves, you dolt, it’s your kind that degrades them for being who they are. There is nothing wrong in what they do. Nothing at all.

I’d add: “You have no respect for your sexual partner(s). You have no respect for your prostate.”

Aratina Cage hasn’t posted for a good while (AFAICT), and what do I happen to be listening to at the very moment I read the post? That song by Smashing Pumpkins, who I only listen to sporadically. What are the chances? :-)

Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it.

Sounds more like christscumbaggery to me.

You’re the insane pieces of shit who deny evolution, deny climate change, deny that homosexuality is 100% natural, deny that women are people and deny all decency to fellate your genocidal scumbag in the sky.

1) Homosexuality is a social CHOICE not a biological fact. There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

Who the fuck are you, a denier of evolution to pick and choice from your ass any kind of genetic fact. Do not talk about natural selection until you know of what you speak.

2) Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

What a surprise, this coming from a fuckface who compares being gay to the rape and murder of babies. Myopic does not even begin to describe what you are.

3) Pleasure is not intrinsically and morally good. A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

Throwing more of the same poison in the well.

4) Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

So, you are happy to have teens who choice to be LGBT to be bullied to the point where some commit suicide. You are a lovely human.

5) Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it. But they are degrading and harming themselves, and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

Far removed from reality? This coming from the brainstem who cannot see the difference between consensual anal sex and fucking an animal. My fucking skull just imploded.

Sixdays:
1) Says who?
2) Why the fuck should I care about your “morality”?
3) Stop wanking off about dead babies. Murder has fuck all to do with consentual sex. But it’s very telling that a creeper like you can’t tell the difference.
4) Says who?
5) Says who?

How do you know any of that shit? I don’t want assertions, I want demonstrations.

@MetzO’Magic Heh. Good to see you, too! I’m around sporadically (mostly reading all of your wonderful comments), but yes today’s troll stomping has been quite fun even though I arrived here late. This kind of open mockery and critical response, what we have here, is what the Westboro Baptist Trolls should fear when they set foot in the Reason Rally. I can’t wait for the video footage if their reception at RR looks anything like this.

When we were small, sister and I somehow got access to a porn magazine. On the centerfold there were female couples doing da nasty. Now, I was a worldly ten-year old who knew quite well what homosexuality is. I even could spell lesbian properly, might I add. My sister however was only six and I had no clear idea at the time how much she knew about facts of life.

The woman-on-woman pictures clearly bothered her greatly. “Why are they doing that?” she kept asking me. I was facing a dilemma. I could tell that the women in the pictures are lesbians, but a) would my sister understand the word?
b) was she aware of the concept homosexuality?
c) how could I get through this embarrasing situation with least bothersomeness for me? I didn’t want to be my baby sister’s sex educator!

So at first I told her “Those women are just being silly.”

The sis was not contend with the answer. She raised the question again and again, becoming visibly more anxious in the process. Therefore I decided to bit the bullet and told her straight (ahem!) that the women in the pictures are lesbians. And I expected the conversation to escalate into a discussion about different sexual orientations.

Boy, was I wrong. The moment she heard that, she calmed down immediately. Her response was “Oh, right” or something of the sort. Turned out that not only did she know about homosexuality and lesbianism, what she needed was a realistic, calmly given explanation of a confusing picture, instead of some bloody evasions.

That incidence taught me a lot about kids’ ability to handle sexual stuff.

Y’know, sixdays, you don’t have a fucking clue what you’re talking about when it comes to the “choice” of being gay or not. But you know what?

I don’t fucking care. This country (the US) was fucking founded on the idea of freedom and individual rights. We didn’t start off near that ideal (what with slavery and all, and women not being able to vote, and so on), but we’ve been moving toward that ideal.

Now we have fucking Christian assholes like you who want to take us back a hundred years, rather than forward. You’d rather deny the freedom to choose whom others might love. Even if you assume being gay is a choice, who the fuck are you to deny that choice? That choice belongs only to the people involved, not you. It harms nobody, least of all you. So if it’s a choice, honor the freedom to choose. Otherwise, you’re going against the very founding ideals of this country.

Also, you know Jesus’s second coming? It was because of anal sex. He really enjoys it.

1) I don’t see any real evidence that homosexuality is due to some genetic variation. How could it be inherited when gays don’t reproduce? If it is due to poor diet, like a lack of vitamins, then it can be treated. I have met many people who have been cured and now lead decent sexual lives.

2) I never compared homosexuality with mass murder. I just pointed out that what seems pleasurable is not always right.

3) I think we should target teens who flirt with the idea of being gay. We should not make being gay “cool” and attractive as a lifestyle. We should make it something to be ashamed of. We need to offer intensive counseling to those people who are impressionable and are liable to being enticed down the gay way.

4) I am really shocked at the high levels of both homosexuality and bisexuality in the western world. I estimate that 1 in 5 Americans falls into either category. These are apocalyptic figures that signal that our civilization is facing a crisis.

Also, homosexuality does not necessarily correlate to a single gene, but to a complex interaction of genes, contingent fetal development, and individual experience.

homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do).

The potential genetic reason(s) for there being homosexuals is still argued over, but one common overarching idea is that a non-reproducing individual can still lead to greater reproductive fitness for the individual’s family and close kin.

Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

Obviously false.

There are still celibate people. Has the “mutant gene” for celibacy been “weeded out”?

Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

That’s because you’re depraved and evil.

Those who are not depraved and evil would agree that humans can mutually consent to sex.

Pleasure is not intrinsically and morally good.

It is if no harm results from the pleasure.

A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

Yes, like God does repeatedly in the Bible. I’m glad you agree that God is an evil baby-killing pervert.

However, homosexuality, in and of itself, harms no-one at all.

Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

The only such sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric are those that involve lack of consent; rape and pedophilia.

Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it.

Why not? Why do you hate freedom?

But they are degrading and harming themselves

What harm, exactly?

and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

And from where, besides your bigoted imagination, do you get this claim?

2) I never compared homosexuality with mass murder. I just pointed out that what seems pleasurable is not always right.

And I never compared Christianity to cannibalism. I just pointed out that one group is filled with evil people with strange disgusting beliefs and rituals centered around flesh and blood, and the other group eats human flesh.

1. Learn some genetics. Ever heard of carriers? What about closet cases having children? The bit about “curing” GLBT people is pure bullshit.
2. You did a lot more than that.
3. Yeah, some of your fellow fundies have had that idea. It usually ends with psychologically damaged teenagers. Or suicide.
4. That would be because we accept people for who they are, and don’t threaten to kill the because they aren’t exactly like us.

Good job responding to a comment finally though, now do the same for the remaining thirty or so directed at your stupidity.

I don’t see any real evidence that homosexuality is due to some genetic variation. How could it be inherited when gays don’t reproduce? If it is due to poor diet, like a lack of vitamins, then it can be treated. I have met many people who have been cured and now lead decent sexual lives.

So because you do not understand, it should be condemned.

I never compared homosexuality with mass murder. I just pointed out that what seems pleasurable is not always right.

Fuckface, look up the concept of poisoning the well. Also, did you read the bit of scripture that I provided. Or do you cherry pick you bible?

I think we should target teens who flirt with the idea of being gay. We should not make being gay “cool” and attractive as a lifestyle. We should make it something to be ashamed of. We need to offer intensive counseling to those people who are impressionable and are liable to being enticed down the gay way.

Fuckface, being gay is still not “cool”. But it is good to know that you are a bully.

I am really shocked at the high levels of both homosexuality and bisexuality in the western world. I estimate that 1 in 5 Americans falls into either category. These are apocalyptic figures that signal that our civilization is facing a crisis.

Why just the western world? Also, who know that the world has been on the edge of the apocalypse?

Also, as a god-botherer of the slimiest sort, isn’t the apocalypse what you want? You get to bend your knees in the glory of Jesus, the a very height of your religion.

1) I don’t see any real evidence that homosexuality is due to some genetic variation. How could it be inherited when gays don’t reproduce? If it is due to poor diet, like a lack of vitamins, then it can be treated. I have met many people who have been cured and now lead decent sexual lives.

We’ve heard about these so-called “cures”. Either those who get them go away, lead a double life or commit suicide. Some “cure” you have.

2) I never compared homosexuality with mass murder. I just pointed out that what seems pleasurable is not always right.

Yes you deedlee did. You keep ignoring the difference between consensual acts and things that hurt other people. You conflated homosexuality with murdering babies twice. It’s very disingenuous. But not surprising. We’ve come to associate hypocrisy with xianity for quite some time now.

3) I think we should target teens who flirt with the idea of being gay. We should not make being gay “cool” and attractive as a lifestyle. We should make it something to be ashamed of. We need to offer intensive counseling to those people who are impressionable and are liable to being enticed down the gay way.

’cause everyone knows all teenagers think being gay is too fucking cool. That’s why they insult each other by using words like “faggot”. So much so that gay teens end up killing themselves more than straight ones ’cause they feel so hip, and everyone envy them.

4) I am really shocked at the high levels of both homosexuality and bisexuality in the western world. I estimate that 1 in 5 Americans falls into either category. These are apocalyptic figures that signal that our civilization is facing a crisis.

I think we should target teens who flirt with the idea of being gay. We should not make being gay “cool” and attractive as a lifestyle. We should make it something to be ashamed of. We need to offer intensive counseling to those people who are impressionable and are liable to being enticed down the gay way. –sixwaystillsunday

Yeah. Being gay was really cool when I was a kid. It was something no gay person was ashamed of! Nobody–I mean nobody targeted people they thought were flirting with the idea of being gay. And counselors, man, they loved it when kids brought up their being gay and didn’t get uncomfortable about it at all…

…or not (really not–that was all sarcasm). Seriously, sixdays, you live in a very fucked-up mental prison because of your backwards religion. You have such hatred for your fellow humans because they don’t do what you and your imaginary friend dictate. I hardly doubt that you’ll be in prison soon enough for some violent shit you pull because you don’t respect other people or yourself.

4) I am really shocked at the high levels of both homosexuality and bisexuality in the western world. I estimate that 1 in 5 Americans falls into either category. These are apocalyptic figures that signal that our civilization is facing a crisis.

The only crisis that signals is for your outdated, bronze-age, appallingly inhumane beliefs.

I don’t see any real evidence that homosexuality is due to some genetic variation. How could it be inherited when gays don’t reproduce?

Seriously, dude? You understand neither genetics nor homosexuality. Gays can and do reproduce; and half your genes are shared with your siblings, which suggests an obvious path by which the genes of even non-reproducing gays can be propagated into another generation.

Janine is right. You are a pathetic and inhumane assclam. I’m limbering up my banhammering arm right now, so cool it.

I am really shocked at the high levels of both homosexuality and bisexuality

Oh, you’re just scared of taking a good, long look in the mirror, Cupcake. All those delicious, deviant acts people are enjoying and there you sit in your plain, repressed corner. Tsk.

I’m bisexual, Cupcake and let me tell you, it’s a fine way to be. Nothing wrong with that or me or any other LGBT person. Nothing wrong with hetro peoples who happen to be sexually healthy.

It’s douchecakes like yourself, who twist and stomp on natural desires to the point that you end up being a terribly nasty person with way too many violent fantasies and an overriding desire to control everyone else that are monsters. You and those like you are the threat to all things civil.

Aratina Cage, sixcupcakes just wants an excuse to be a bully. Because it is obvious that he finds it pleasurable and want to have a purpose. What are the corpses of thousands of dead queer teens in the pursuit of self justification.

It is not like they are useful in the evolutionary process that he denies exists.

The second I read this I just knew that what was going to follow would be one long cavalcade of wrong.

1) Homosexuality is a social CHOICE not a biological fact.

Wrong. There is no evidence whatsoever that sexuality is a conscious choice. Scientists aren’t sure if the mechanism is genetic or envornmental in nature, or a combination of multiple such factors, but what is clear is that it is not a choice.

I am a heterosexual; I cannot simply choose to be turned on by guys. By the same token, homosexuals cannot simply choose to be straight.

There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

So there is no ‘genetic reason’ but there is a ‘mutant gene’?

Let me guess – evolutionary theory isn’t your strong suit. Most characteristics of a species start out as ‘successful’ mutations that are favoured by selection pressures. If there is (to use a very crude and scientifically inaccurate term) a ‘gay gene’, then it could easily have been selected for because it would provide additional care-givers to the offspring of siblings.

So, you are (surprise surprise) wrong again.

2) Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

Let me spell it out for you – anal sex (whether between people of different or the same gender) is (with the exception of cases of rape or abuse) a consensual act between people who are capable of providing informed and enthusiastic consent. Bestiality is, by its nature, abusive because animals are by definition incapable of providing consent.

The ethical difference is obvious to anyone who hasn’t been poisoned by patriarchal religion and homophobic pseudo-logic.

3) Pleasure is not intrinsically and morally good. A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

Actually, there are many schools of philosophiical thought that would argue that pleasure, so long as it harms no one else, most certainly is an inherent social good, and definitely aids with mental and physical wellbeing.

4) Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

Oh please – if would-be petty theocratic tyrants like you thought for a second that they actually had the power to institute a ‘bedroom police’ they would jump at the chance. Control through sexual reprtession and fear is the known MO of your religion.

And as for ‘undermining society’s fabric’, there is no reason to believe that homosexuality does any such thing. The fact that there exists a subset in society who like to have sex with consenting partners of the same gender does not harm you, me or anyone else at all. If anything, it is your oppressive, patriarchal, Bronze Age religious delusion that causes the real harm by advocating the kind of mindless bigotry you have been spewing all over this thread.

5) Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it.

‘Removed from reality’ – says the bigot who believes that an unevidenced, invisible magic man in the sky will condemn to eternal torture the equally unevidenced ‘soul-fields’ of people who have forms of sex that it doesn’t approve of…

Who is out of touch with reality here again?

But they are degrading and harming themselves, and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

Even if you were right (and you aren’t) about the harm and degradation, what makes you think that you or your church has the right to tell other people what risks they can or can’t voluntarily take? All life is risk – heterosexual sex is risky, it can increase the liklihood of cervical cancer, result in the transmission of venerial diseases, or lead to potentially fatal complications in birth (doubly so when cretins like you try to deny women access to abortion, contraception and proper sexual education). Smoking is risky, it can cause cancer and contributes to the risk of heart attacks. Eating fatty food (or any food) is risky. Even breathing causes slow cellular damage.

Life is, by its very nature, risky. We all take risks every day, and it is up to us to decide what risks we are prepared to take with our own bodies, not you, and not your church.

As for the ‘degradation'; well, like beauty, degradation is in large part in the eye of the beholder. So long as everything is consensual, then I see no problem with it. Afterall, there are some people out there who would find heterosexual sex degrading, is that a reason to ban it? I find your willful servitude to your church and imaginary god degrading, yet I am not suggesting that religion should be outlawed…

1.) I don’t get genetics and biology so real life on earth makes no sense therefore anyone NOT LIKE ME is ABNORMAL and thus WRONG (which is, in itself, a horrifyingly cringeworthy “argument”).

2.) EEEEW anal sex, genitals, bodily fluids. ICKY.

At this point I cannot but wonder if xe is actually 11 or 12 years old. I remember having this kind of reaction as a wee girl way back then – someone not like me = threat; bodily fluids EEEW OMG PENIS GOES WHERE? (exaggerated for effect since I knew very well where penises went in terms of women, but you know what I mean).

I got better with age. Perhaps xe will too, but for now xe is only good for being a chewtoy.

What are the corpses of thousands of dead queer teens in the pursuit of self justification.

I know… #3 on that list of sixways’ was almost enough to make me barf. At least Owlmirror helped wash the bad taste out of my mouth by turning it around on sixways: yes, let’s make Christianity uncool and target Christians to shame them and send them to therapists to change them. Works for me. If we do that, Christian bullies like sixways won’t be around much longer to bully any queer kids. Problem solved!

There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

true or not, irrelevant to human rights

Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind.

nope

I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

you’ve already demonstrated your lack of morality, we don’t need to be reminded

A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

non sequitor, you haven’t been talking about pedophilia

Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do

there is nothing wrong. that is reality

Blockquote>But they are degrading and harming themselves nope

and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

nope

@ nigelthebold @ 188:

Freedom and respect mean nothing to people like this. Even freedom of personal identity is meaningless. Your argument is based on the assumption that there is a seed of empathy in him and his ilk but there is not. They are not concerned with bettering the human condition. They are concerned with exerting control, partially for the sake of personal power, and partially for the idea of God as a vehicle for personal power.

The morality of people such as sixdays is completely divorced from what we would consider morality, e.g. well-being along the lines of Sam Harris. This is a morality, such as William Lane Craig’s (Do correct me if I’ve misremembered who to attribute that to), that accommodates child-murder. Arguing along the lines of “But that decreases well-being!” is pointless, as it assumes that well-being is part of their morality when it is not.

2) Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

Seeing as how Bible-thumping lawmakers keep confusing women with livestock, I’m not surprised you can’t distinguish between consensual sex and bestiality.

5) Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it. But they are degrading and harming themselves, and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

The way women’s health care is going, pretty soon gay people will have a LONGER life expectancy due to avoiding death from pregnancy.

And as for this:

I think we should target teens who flirt with the idea of being gay. We should not make being gay “cool” and attractive as a lifestyle. We should make it something to be ashamed of.

I was raised by fundie Christians who harassed me for, among other things, being gender-variant. Since first grade, when none of us even knew what “gay” was. Now that I’m all grown up, guess what? I’m still queer. All I learned was that religious intolerance deserves shaming.

Also really? Skatje compared gays to people who fuck animals? I missed that link?

Skatje posted an argument on her blog a few years back to the effect that while she agreed bestiality was icky she couldn’t think of a consistent argument for prohibiting it (IE, an argument that isn’t just as applicable to other things that people do not suggest prohibiting but which are less ICKY).

Slimy Sal Cordova picked up on it and lied like a rug about what she was saying. Thread here.

1) I don’t see any real evidence that homosexuality is due to some genetic variation. How could it be inherited when gays don’t reproduce?

One word: population!
First thing about evolution is that it happens to groups, not to individuals.

If it is due to poor diet, like a lack of vitamins, then it can be treated.

First you need to give any actual evidence that it’s harmfull

I have met many people who have been cured and now lead decent sexual lives.

So you watch them in their bedrooms to make sure they don’t engage in oral or anal sex?
Creepy!
Oh, I understand, they just exist in your head. That’s OK then.

2) I never compared homosexuality with mass murder. I just pointed out that what seems pleasurable is not always right.

Yep, and you know where the generally accepted line is?
When there’s a victim.
Tell us again, who’s the victim in a consensual good old gay fuck? Whatever that may be.

3) I think we should target teens who flirt with the idea of being gay christians. We should not make being gay christian “cool” and attractive as a lifestyle. We should make it something to be ashamed of. We need to offer intensive counseling to those people who are impressionable and are liable to being enticed down the gay christian way.

FIFY

4) I am really shocked at the high levels of both homosexuality and bisexuality in the western world. I estimate that 1 in 5 Americans falls into either category. These are apocalyptic figures that signal that our civilization is facing a crisis.

Also, you fucking bigot, if you know enough to toss what Skatje said, you also know what the response is. Animals cannot give consent.

This is what I mean about consistency.

Animals can’t give informed consent to being bought and sold, slaughtered for meat, selectively bred, sterilized, put to work, or euthanized. And yet not even PETA, strawman-animated-by-the-powers-of-darkness that it is, suggests that all of those should be prohibited (rather the opposite, from what I hear of conditions in their “no-kill” shelters). Most people don’t have a problem with any of them.

This makes it pretty glaringly obvious that the “animals can’t consent” canard is an attempt to rationalize an EWWW response, not a principled argument.

This makes it pretty glaringly obvious that the “animals can’t consent” canard is an attempt to rationalize an EWWW response, not a principled argument.

Actually, I think “animals can’t consent” is an oversimplified response, specifically targeted at the gay sex = bestiality BS. Somebody making an argument that stupid obviously doesn’t even grasp the concept of consensual sex, and that concept’s more important than actually discussing bestiality.

There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

LETHAL genetic conditions continue to be passed on. Some that cause infant mortality. Did you not think of this? Are you under the misconception that we are bees and males are haploids? WTF?

Math time, if a trait causes functional sterility in males (for simplified sake of argument here) but increases either the fecundity or fitness of the children of a female with the treat sufficiently it will be selected for.

This is the problem with the fiat morality. The effects do not matter. The impact of an action is secondary to the fact that it’s wrong because shut up.

1) I admit that some gays have straight sex and do reproduce – which kind of defeats the whole point about being gay.

2) But being gay greatly lowers your chances of reproducing. As such, if there is a genetic cause, then the gene variant will become less and less over time and eventually become lost from the gene pool.

3) As for siblings: well, unless the recessive carrier gene confers some benefit to them, it will still be selected against once it is expressed when there are two copies present. This is elementary population genetics.

Hence, despite numerous studies, it is clear that there is no genetic basis for homosexuality. It is a cultural and psychological phenomenon. Why can’t we be all just admit this?

In conservative tribal societies homosexuality just does not exist at all. There isn’t even a word to describe gay people in many languages. ..not even oral sex.

1) I admit that some gays have straight sex and do reproduce – which kind of defeats the whole point about being gay.

No it does not. I can’t believe you talk about dignity and people debasing themselves and will stand there and reduce someone to their genitals. Being gay is about as much about kissing and cuddling and watching Doctor Who together as it is about sex.

2) But being gay greatly lowers your chances of reproducing. As such, if there is a genetic cause, then the gene variant will become less and less over time and eventually become lost from the gene pool.

Wrong. Genetic diseases continue quite fine thank you

3) As for siblings: well, unless the recessive carrier gene confers some benefit to them, it will still be selected against once it is expressed when there are two copies present. This is elementary population genetics.

Two words: Sickle Trait

Two copies causes Sickle Cell Anemia. One copy is resistance to malaria. Trait is selected for

No that is failing elementary population genetics. Do the squares and check it.

Hence, despite numerous studies, it is clear that there is no genetic basis for homosexuality. It is a cultural and psychological phenomenon. Why can’t we be all just admit this?

Because you’re wrong. Studies show links to some genes and to developmental conditions. Each successive male child of a mother has a greater chance of being gay

In conservative tribal societies homosexuality just does not exist at all. There isn’t even a word to describe gay people in many languages. ..not even oral sex.

In conservative tribal societies homosexuality just does not exist at all.

So speaks sixways from the delusional mental prison of theistic thinking. Conservative tribal societies? Such as…? I can’t think of any tribal societies where homosexuality didn’t or doesn’t exist, myself.

Actually, I think “animals can’t consent” is an oversimplified response, specifically targeted at the gay sex = bestiality BS. Somebody making an argument that stupid obviously doesn’t even grasp the concept of consensual sex, and that concept’s more important than actually discussing bestiality.

Hmm, I can think of one or two tribal societies where homosexuality was punished, along with working on a specific day, disobeying your parents, and touching a women at the wrong time were all punished with death, but none where it didn’t exist. This whole X tribe didn’t/doesn’t have a word for Y canard is getting old.

Or to address the point in a less flippant way. IIRC for a while there was no separate word for Green and Blue in Japanese. Green was seen as a shade of blue. This does not mean they didn’t HAVE green things they just didn’t have a specific word for it.

I admit that some gays have straight sex and do reproduce – which kind of defeats the whole point about being gay.

Good news everybody. If you reproduce, you can no longer be gay!

But being gay greatly lowers your chances of reproducing. As such, if there is a genetic cause, then the gene variant will become less and less over time and eventually become lost from the gene pool.

Remember! There is the GAY gene. There is no need to look at combinations of genes, hormones or environment. It can all be waved away by using jagged piece of a field of study that sixcupcakes does not believe in.

As for siblings: well, unless the recessive carrier gene confers some benefit to them, it will still be selected against once it is expressed when there are two copies present. This is elementary population genetics.

Because queer people through out history and prehistory did nothing to help the children of family members to survive. Because human are an individual species and the nuclear family is the only unit that humans have used.

In conservative tribal societies homosexuality just does not exist at all. There isn’t even a word to describe gay people in many languages. ..not even oral sex.

The Japanese word ao (青?, n., aoi (青い?, adj.)), exactly the same kanji character as the Chinese qīng above, can refer to either blue or green depending on the situation. Modern Japanese has a word for green (緑 midori?), although this was not always so. Ancient Japanese did not have this distinction: the word midori only came into use in the Heian period, and at that time (and for a long time thereafter) midori was still considered a shade of ao. Educational materials distinguishing green and blue only came into use after World War II.[citation needed]: thus, even though most Japanese consider them to be green, the word ao is still used to describe certain vegetables, apples, and vegetation. Ao is also the name for the color of a traffic light. However, most other objects—a green car, a green sweater, and so forth—will generally be called midori. Japanese people also sometimes use the word gurīn (グリーン?), based on the English word “green”, for colors. The language also has several other words meaning specific shades of green and blue.

Again they still had fucking green things even if not the word for green

Before Sixdays gets banned, can someone please just give me one example of how two chaps, or two chappesses having sex with each other causes social breakdown?

Envy.
Look how much time sixdays wastes on the internet telling the world how evil teh gheys are for having hot sex with like-minded gheys. If every straight person did that, no work would ever get done because all teh gheys are having sex and the schtreights are getiing upset about it.

I admit that some gays have straight sex and do reproduce – which kind of defeats the whole point about being gay.

What makes you think that exclusive homosexuality has a “point”? It’s not like being a priest, nun, or monk, where you make a solemn promise to never have sex as part of the fucking — or rather, non-fucking — job.

But being gay greatly lowers your chances of reproducing. As such, if there is a genetic cause, then the gene variant will become less and less over time and eventually become lost from the gene pool.

You obviously don’t understand genetics. Why do you pretend that you do?

As for siblings: well, unless the recessive carrier gene confers some benefit to them, it will still be selected against once it is expressed when there are two copies present.

[emph mine]

Do you even read what you write, let alone what other people write?

This is elementary population genetics.

This is you being an idiot about elementary population genetics.

Hence, despite numerous studies,

You being an idiot is not a disproof of those studies.

it is clear that there is no genetic basis for homosexuality.

It is clear that you are an idiot, and have no idea what is or is not the basis of homosexuality.

. It is a cultural and psychological phenomenon.

It is a biological and a cultural and psychological phenomenon.

And once again, even if it were “only” a cultural and psychological phenomenon, why do you hate freedom?

Why can’t we be all just admit this?

Why can’t you just admit that you have no idea what you’re talking about?

In conservative tribal societies homosexuality just does not exist at all.

Because an obvious idiot like you says so?

There isn’t even a word to describe gay people in many languages. ..not even oral sex.

This makes it pretty glaringly obvious that the “animals can’t consent” canard is an attempt to rationalize an EWWW response, not a principled argument.

Speciesist it may be, but I do put the welfare of humans above that of animals.
What I do not do, however, is put the entertainment of humans above the welfare of animals. So no dogfighting, bullfighting, cockfighting, canned hunts or animal rape.
Killing, breeding, and working animals for the purposes of food, shelter, clothing etc., when done in a manner that minimizes pain and suffering, should not be confused with acts that cause pain and suffering with no other justification than “it’s fun.”

sixdays, you’d best constrain your conversation to talking solely about yourself. You’re way too uneducated to talk about anything else. If I were you, I’d be pretty pissed off at my parents and preachers for treating my education with such nearly criminal negligence, and I’d probably be pretty upset with my god for sending me to argue with heretics when I’m so poorly equipped.

If you pray, then ask YHWH this: if actually he means to change our minds about his existence, why won’t he send someone who’s read a book or two? Uneducated people like you are the absolute worst possible missionaries.

Er, Horde?
I get that troll-stomping is fun, but this one is hardly challenging for your intellects. So I would like to ask to run a thought I had up the flagpole. This phrase (from the OP):

the behavior of people in the privacy of their bedrooms

It doesn’t seem right to me, because it seems like the liberal equivalent of homophobic arguments which reduce homosexuality to Ghey Secks (or a particular sexual act). That is, being gay is not just something that occurs in the privacy of the bedroom. Things like gay marriage, pride parades, gay community, etc., are about people being gay in their public lives as well, and enjoying freedom, equality and acceptance. I think it is better to tell bigots “deal with it motherfucker” than “but they are hardly visible!”.

So, to me the “privacy of bedroom” argument seems like a variation on the reviled “birth-control pills also have other uses” argument. And I would like to hear the hive-mind’s thoughts on the matter.

*this is not to accuse PZ of any homophobic sentiments, BTW. He just happened to use a common cliche that jumped out at me.

Yeah, if gay men have intercourse with women then it is a lie that they don’t have a choice about their sexuality. They do.

@Owlmirror:

IF there is a benefit. We know there is a “benefit” to the carriers of cystic fibrosis and sickle cell anemia (helps protect against cholera and malaria respectively), but what is the benefit to carrying the “gay gene” that has yet to be identified?

I maintain that homosexuality’s roots are cultural. They stem from a section of society that is promiscuous, liberal, secular and godless. I fear that this wickedness will be punished just as in the days of Soddom and Gomorrah – the good folks will suffer the same fate as the bad. That is unfair on the former. Why should I be struck down with fire and brimstone because of your actions?

Thanks for the responses. And yeah, I kinda knew! ;-) Which pains me more than someone like Sixways can know. It’s like we’re “Fundy-Whsiperers” we can speak their language if we turn off enough brain circuits!

There is one thing about the “sex must produce new life” argument I’ve never got, it’s the poverty of imagination. I mean, if I perform cunnilingus on my wife, why the hell does the sex stop there? Or start there for that matter. Oral sex can be part of sex-that-leads-to-life. Ditto fellatio.

I’ve never got anti-sex attitudes. Not ever. Sex is good, hell even bad sex is good. I do get that’s not the case for everyone, asexuals exist and they are fine by me, and long may libidos continue to vary across the spectrum. But being asexual is not the same as being anti-sex. It’s all bundled together, misogyny, homophobia and anti-sex. Personally I think that little package is, as others have intimated, just root misogyny. Anti male homosexuality is a rail against the “feminisation” of men, anti female homosexuality is the restriction of female sexual expression, as is anti-sex.

Look at Sixdays’ whinge about oral sex. If as Janine intimates it’s all about Teh Baybeez then maybe I can buy being anti-fellatio as part of the whole package as the chap might accidentally ejaculate and then, well, no baby from that emission. But cunnilingus? The only reason to be so passionately against something as frankly lovely as cunnilingus is if you hate women enjoying sex. Sorry but there’s no other reason. Hell, I’ve even read a few studies that suggest post orgasmic ladies are more receptive to Teh Baybee Juice and thus more likely to Has Teh Baybee. By the Baybee Logic, fundies should be all about the multiple orgasms. They’re not, and in my view they’re not because they fear women being sexual and powerfully so. Which is beyond pathetic.

Meh, I can’t be bothered to engage a single brain cell beyond vague attention and mockery for these anti-sex dolts. They ain’t worth the effort.

When it comes to people like Cameron, sixcake and those like them, it’s all about the sex. The icky, icky sex. So, that’s what we end up having to address, although I note that most arguments against these idiots do include a person’s whole life and their right to be in love with someone, their right to marry with all that entails.

I maintain that homosexuality’s roots are cultural. They stem from a section of society that is promiscuous, liberal, secular and godless.

And we maintain that Christianity’s roots are cultural. Evidence for this would be the existence of other, more popular religions in other cultures, and the fact that Christians still have enough disagreements over fundamental precepts to continually diverge into all the different sects we see.

I fear that this wickedness will be punished just as in the days of Soddom and Gomorrah – the good folks will suffer the same fate as the bad. That is unfair on the former. Why should I be struck down with fire and brimstone because of your actions?

You shouldn’t. Another reason to question the wisdom, if not the actual existence, of your God.

They stem from a section of society that is promiscuous, liberal, secular and godless

In other words, the good guys.

*stomps foot*
I want my ghey secks with Brownian NOW!
How can I ever truely belong to the good guys if I don’t turn gay?
And why isn’t anybody fucking telling me how to become gay?
Help, pleaaaaaaaaase!

Why should I be struck down with fire and brimstone because of your actions? –sixwaystillsunday

^^ One of the prime reasons theism is so damn terrible. Their fearful delusions of their gods are hefted onto our shoulders without our consent. We tell them to open their eyes to the fact that there is no god, so stop worrying about it, but that just makes them more afraid that their imaginary friend will punish them.

Ah, Sodom and Gomorrah. Yeah, that Lot, what a good guy, offering up his daughters to be gang raped, after all, they were just livestock wimmins, who cared?

Genesis 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Yeah, this is a person extolled by Peter to be a just and righteous man. That’s one ugly-ass religion you have there, sixdouches.

Sodom and Gomorrah would have been saved had just one good man had been found. But everyone was a rampant homosexual, and so the cities were razed to the ground. Maybe a few good Christians is what stops western civilization from meeting a similar fate?

Remember what happened with Jennifer McCreight’s “Boobquake experiment”? The people of Taiwan were badly affected as a result.

I am only calling on you to exercise a little self-restraint? Is that so much to ask? Isn’t that what separates us apart from other animals?

I’ve been trying to choose to be gay with Sixdays for HOURS now. No joy. Not even a slightly homosexual sausage. And Brownian….nothing. I’ve even offered to let Sixways suck my cock. He could prove this gay stuff is a choice after all and distribute pleasure at the same time. Now who could ask for a fairer deal than that?

Yeah, if gay men have intercourse with women then it is a lie that they don’t have a choice about their sexuality. They do.

Fuckface, people are a lot more complicated than just being straight or gay. As people have been pointing out to you (And you are to narrow focused to notice.) their are various reason who a people is gay, straight of end up attracted to a person regardless of gender.

You cannot and will not notice because you think you are being the hammer of an arbitrary god. One that sometimes is happy with swinging babies again rocks.

Sodom and Gomorrah would have been saved had just one good man had been found.

Read your fucking Bible, asshole.

18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Can’t you get anything right?

Oh wait. I probably should know better than to ask a moron that kind of question, huh?

Yeah, if gay men have intercourse with women then it is a lie that they don’t have a choice about their sexuality. They do.

No, they have a choice about who they have sex with. Which applies more to bisexuals than to exclusive homosexuals.

And if they do have a choice, then so what? Why do you hate freedom?

what is the benefit to carrying the “gay gene” that has yet to be identified?

Siblings having more children.

How ignorant are you of studies of homosexuality if you don’t know that?

I maintain that homosexuality’s roots are cultural.

Only to the extent that open acceptance of homosexuality is cultural.

They stem from a section of society that is promiscuous, liberal, secular and godless.

Go us!

I fear that this wickedness will be punished just as in the days of Soddom and Gomorrah

What “wickedness”? Being “promiscuous, liberal, secular and godless” isn’t wicked.

And punished by who? A fictional being that, strangely enough, hates the sames things you do?

– the good folks will suffer the same fate as the bad. That is unfair on the former.

I’m glad that you agree, that if your fictional God were real, it would be unfair for it to punish the good folks along with yourself. An unfair God is necessarily an evil one. Therefore, if your God were real, it would be evil.

Why do you worship an evil God?

Why should I be struck down with fire and brimstone

You won’t be, moron, unless you live in an active volcanic area. In which case, you might be struck down with fire and brimstone for not moving to a non-volcanic area.

because of your actions?

Humans being promiscuous, liberal, secular and godless (and/or homosexual), or not being so, will neither cause nor hinder a volcanic eruption.

Sodom and Gomorrah would have been saved had just one good man had been found. But everyone was a rampant homosexual, and so the cities were razed to the ground. Maybe a few good Christians is what stops western civilization from meeting a similar fate?

Well, YOU aren’t gay, are you sixdays? Therefore, everyone’s safe as long as you go on being not gay.

… OR ARE YOU *dun dun dunnnnn*

Also, I totally want to be a heraldic rampant homosexual. *strikes pose*

Sixdays, seriously: get rid of the van, ditch the binoculars, burn your little map of “targets” and stop peeking into people’s houses at night if people enjoying themselves with who they want, how they want disturbs you so very much. Go home and watch a little television. Maybe a nice older innocent sit-com like Three’s Company, Bosom Buddies…ummmm, maybe something a little more modern like Big Love, Red Shoe Diaries, Teletubbies. Oh, wait, strike Teletubbies–the whole Tinky-Winky/purse thing.

Finally, let me just say something about sex: I consider it to be as much an emotional act of union as a physical one. If you reduce it to the level of penises and vaginas, breasts and anuses, then you are missing out on the whole experience.

Hmm. Late to the party again. Whether or not he was real, I thought this passage was revealing:

No, I have no intention whatsoever of degrading myself by sucking on the genitals of any man, woman or beast.

What I took from that is that he would “degrade” himself by being the giver of the pleasure. No, that is not the proper role of a man. The proper role of a man is to be the taker, is to have one’s manhood (excuse me, his PERSON) attended to. Any man who takes the contrary role is being degraded. Homophobia is misogyny at the bottom.

I think six days might be our old friend Pete “books bound in human flesh” Rooke.

Nah, Rookie is too self-absorbed and pompous to go undercover like that. He would be all “Good morrow to all, it is Pete Rooke again, and I do hope that I can stay unbanned at this blog so that I may engage you in respectful dialogue about your blasphemous poopy-headed attitudes towards Sweet Dear Loving Mother Church.”

That song by Smashing Pumpkins, who I only listen to sporadically.

You mean the one about the Spider Marines and Siam’s steel-chested rabbit arcade?

That’s right Kirk. it’s all about teh Secks. the hot, sticky, pulsating sex. The sex you secretly envy. The pure, hedonistic pleasure, unaccompanied by guilt or panic. fucking, Kirk. Fucking just for the fun of it. You only wish you could. Kirk, you would disgust me, if you weren’t so pitiable.

Oh, and – – Kirk ? Jesus says to believe in Him not in the bible. He says specifically :”whosoever believeth in me shall not perish . . .”
You remember that, dont’ you, Kirk ?

What I took from that is that he would “degrade” himself by being the giver of the pleasure. No, that is not the proper role of a man. The proper role of a man is to be the taker, is to have one’s manhood (excuse me, his PERSON) attended to. Any man who takes the contrary role is being degraded.

And this is what I have never got. Surely if a gentleperson attractive to you enjoys what you do with them, then they come back for more! This means MOAR BAYBEEEZ (Potentially). Fundies can’t even follow their own “logic”.

If I were gay, I’d be proud to suck dick. I’d be good too. A real man takes pride in his work.

Now there’s a line that needs an anthem. I feel the need to salute something.

Sodom and Gomorrah would have been saved had just one good man had been found.

The banned troll doesn’t even know his own bible. One good man (at least good by the definitions given in the book) WAS found. That was Lot. Sodom and Gomorrah were not saved for Lot’s sake.

Ah, Sodom and Gomorrah. Yeah, that Lot, what a good guy, offering up his daughters to be gang raped, after all, they were just livestock wimmins, who cared?

Now, IF the passage was actually about gays (it’s not), the upshot of the episode regarding Lots’ daughters demonstrates, by the INERRANT WORD OF THE BIBLE, that homosexuality is NOT a lifestyle choice, since the gay mob could not choose the heterosexual option.

only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

And this is the key passage that reveals what that portion of the bible ACTUALLY means. “For therefore came they UNDER THE SHADOW OF MY ROOF”. The wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitability to strangers, ie BIGOTRY. Hospitality was big in the ancient world, in multiple ethical traditions. And homosexual rape was a common, deliberate ritual used for the humiliation of captured enemies in war. Note that not only was the mob NOT interested in raping Lot’s daughters, they were ALSO not interested in raping Lot, or any other of the men in Lot’s household, and the mob did not even gather until after word that the strangers visiting Lot had gotten around. The wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah was their treatment of foreign visitors among them as despised enemies and not as guests.

Anyone with any passing knowledge of the bible knows this. Our dear departed troll is obviously too busy thumping his book to actually bother to read it.

“For therefore came they UNDER THE SHADOW OF MY ROOF”. The wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitability to strangers, ie BIGOTRY. Hospitality was big in the ancient world, in multiple ethical traditions.

Oooh! I’m so saving this.

Hang on, does that mean “sodomy” should actually mean “bigotry” and not buttsex? And that means all those states with criminal sodomy laws still on the books could be throwing their violent hateful bigots in jail! WIN WIN

Nah, Rookie is too self-absorbed and pompous to go undercover like that. He would be all “Good morrow to all, it is Pete Rooke again, and I do hope that I can stay unbanned at this blog so that I may engage you in respectful dialogue about your blasphemous poopy-headed attitudes towards Sweet Dear Loving Mother Church.”

1) If he thought he might get banned, he might do it. He lied. A lot. Remember how he left the impression that he was an old married guy, and it turned out he was some kid in college?

As six days seemed to denounce virtually every possible form of sexual pleasure, I think he actually gets off on writing stupid and untrue arguments and then seeing the reaction (probably by playing with himself as he reads it)
Poor boy, now that PZ has banned him, how will the poor dear get off? Perhaps he will succumb to the latent homosexual tendencies of someone who protests too much?

I hate this phrase, “Bible believing”. As P.Z. pointed out, it doesn’t really mean that they believe everything in the bible. For example, most Christians, including Kirk I would imagine, don’t practice the Old Testament (O.T.) prohibitions on eating shellfish and pork; most of them (thank goodness) don’t stone their children to death if they curse them […] They arbitrarily pick and choose certain parts of the Mosaic law, and discard the rest.

To Jaycee @40 and others making this stupid argument–you completely misunderstand and misrepresent most fundagelical’s position on this (and it fucking drives me crazy because they’re wrong, but you look like an idiot, since you’re unfairly strawmanning their position.) Most fundagelicals believe that Jesus’ death wiped out the need to follow *most* of the OT laws. Some argue that Christians must still follow the OT moral laws (and different denominations argue over which ones count as “moral laws”) but MOST believe that they should only follow those prohibitions from the OT which are reiterated in the New Testament. And Paul decries homosexuality in many New Testament passages. They believe being gay is a sin because of Paul, not because of the Old Testament!

We can argue all day about how this is totally wrong-headed, but at least represent their beliefs correctly.

I may have missed the banhammer smashing down on sixways, but I like picking at corpses.

Perhaps all the troll corpses could be chained and stashed in The Zombie Thread for torment. (TZT thrives on godbots and trolls, it would be a waste to just bury them. We have cages aplenty … and it is the thread of experiment as it is.) Linky.

I fear that this wickedness will be punished just as in the days of Soddom and Gomorrah – the good folks will suffer the same fate as the bad.

Typical Christian death cult response. Obey these archaic and nonsensical rules or be punished. All they have is fear. Without fear the Christian right (and the political right (lots of crossover there)) is powerless. Be afraid or baby Jesus cries.

And we’re the immoral ones?

I want my ghey secks with Brownian NOW!

I have no idea where I am in the queue. I think it got scrambled during the great atheist migration of 2011.

sixdays has felt the wrath of the banhammer.

So sixdays lasted, what a little over two days?

Ing (#84) is apparently trying to start a second Line.

I think it is less of a line and more just a mob with lots of Brownian motion.

Lois
I know, I know.
But I’m a bit disappointed with the Pharyngula Horde who were equally unhelpfull. I mean, there are many gay people here, they should be able to teach me how to be gay.
I would settle for decent bisexuality if gay is too hard for me to learn. So pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase!

You know, I can’t decide if I want to wade in. Sixdays has been through the paper shredder already. Hmmm…Aww, what the hell, I’m one of the people who are the object of his derision. Hey, fuckface! Yeah, talking to you sixdays. Why do you go by sixdays? Are you proud to think you were created by a genocidal bipolar sack of shit?

Let’s get a few things straight:

If you knew how to do a google search, you’d have citations provided. But since you’re socially and sexually inept, I’m going to assume you’re pretty incapable of…performing at the keyboard. How much help diddums have from his other backwards fundie xian buddies?

1) Homosexuality is a social CHOICE not a biological fact. There is no genetic reason for people being gay: homosexuals tend not to reproduce (although some go ahead and do). Hence whatever mutant gene they are carrying should have been weeded out by natural selection a long time ago.

A social choice? The sociology courses offered by your middle school suck. Perhaps when you get to high school you’ll have better material. In the meantime, let me clue you in: THIS QUEER DIDN’T CHOOSE.
I don’t think anyone would actually choose to be gay. There aren’t exactly any perks. Its not like choosing a new car. Or picking out a slice of dessert. Or deciding which size dead porcupine a moronic xian fundie should shove up his ass.
When you get to puberty in a few years (stay the hell away from women though you vile idiot; for that matter, don’t come near any living creatures), you’ll find that your hormones will go one direction. I may be making the incorrect assumption that you’re a human male but if you are, your hormones are going to go in one direction (and I really fear for anyone you turn any attraction to) and that direction is out of your control. When I hit puberty my hormones went another direction and I went from looking at my junior high school gym coach to looking at my junior high school gym coach.
Given that you have such juveline, uninformed views, there’s no way you can have a degree in any field related to human genetics, so how do you know anything about the topic? Gays tend not to have kids? Well yeah, it’s not yet biologically possible for me to get impregnated and carry a baby to term, but there’s also lesbians. They’re women. They can have babies. Many of them *have* had babies. When you get old enough to reach the newspaper on the coffee table, perhaps you’ll begin developing reading skills. One day you can educate yourself properly. I don’t anticipate that happening until the population of the planet passes the 8 billion mark though.
And what’s up with trying to make gays into mutants now? You must be trying to double down on the persecution and bigotry. Hmmm, which X-Man do I want to be…

2) Sodomy and bestiality are both perversions of the same kind. I really don’t see any moral difference between the two

-If you can’t see the difference between bestiality and consensual sex between adults,
NEVER.
HAVE.
SEX.
Also, don’t sell your sperm. We don’t need any more people like you on this planet. Perhaps you’d care to live in Newt’s moonbase…

3) Pleasure is not intrinsically and morally good. A perverted mind can find pleasure in doing evil – like killing babies for no reason.

–And a perverted mind can think up and say everything you’ve written here too.
Oh, and can you ask your god why he wiped the planet out with that damn flood? He killed some babies in the process.
And one more thing: “killing babies for no reason” ?? You do realize most people would be hard pressed to come up with any reason to kill babies. Given that your mind is quite perverted, please stay far away from babies and
FUCK.
OFF.

4) Although it is not the job of the State to police the bedroom, it is the responsibility of society’s leaders to condemn sexual practices that are undermining society’s fabric.

I hope the government follows you around for the rest of your life to make sure you don’t procreate. We wouldn’t want you helping to undermine society’s fabric.

5) Many gay people are so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do – they positively revel in it. But they are degrading and harming themselves, and will have a shorter life expectancy than most straight people.

1-you’ve never met a gay person have you?
2-heterosexual people like you are “so far removed from reality that they see nothing wrong with what they do-the positively revel in it.” That’s what you’re doing with this holier than thou schtick. Which, by the way, ain’t working.

It’s not degrading to have consensual anal sex. It can be quite pleasurable. See, there’s this thing called a prostate and…oh forget it. Just go to an adult store and buy a vibrator. You’ll find it can feel quite good inside you. Enjoy sitting on that for the rest of your life, you loathsome pondscum.

Flanders and Swann do a pretty good job of destroying morality with Madeira http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW_zi8n4HDQ (I was looking for the original, was only able to find the American version of Have Some Madeira, My Dear.)