Would you use a TA unit to help deliver Reg Trade Trg

Yes

No

Don&#039;t know enough about what TA Wksp Coys have to offer

War Hero

With the one Army concept being pushed now, we should all embrace it and drive it forward. Now there are TA units with excellent underused training facilities, more or less like those at B Branch in Bordon.

It is a shame to see them underused, so would managers be prepared to send their VMs to these TA Wksp Coys to help fill the 3-2 books?

The training could be delivered by the TA instructors, and for the doubters, they could watch the instruction. There are engines with FIPs for spill timing, cylinder heads to be whipped off and on, AESPs to hand and basic engineering principles and health and safety standards to be observed.

Class Ones from within the units could even take the modules, accom would be basic you supply a chef and you use the kitchen (payd buy your own set-up)and generally it would be weekends, although a week option might be viable if unit provided staff.

These units are dotted throughout the country and could speed up qualification of our tradesmen.

If you vote no, could you be good enough to give a decent reason why you think these units cannot deliver training, thanks.

If you do nothing but read this, please leave a vote.

PM me if you have any genuine ideas or thoughts, i'm just after a straw poll here.

LE

Some good points but i dont think it would be that beneficial to be honest. Things like spill timing can be done at Bordon on class 3, class 1 courses and IMHO doesnt need to be done on a 3-2. With the reduction of class 3 courses anyway more basic VMing is needed and getting the Cfn to get confidence at the basics. My unit has an excellent 3-2 programme with our fullscrews teaching every Wednesday where possible. This way we get good continuity with the blokes who are going to be their FRT/section commanders on exercise/tour. It isnt a pass everyone for the sake of STATs like most 3-2 courses have been in the past..... mine bloody was in Bielefeld in 1989, who's to say that if it was done in a TA centre to justify things everyone would pass. If you take people out of the enviroment they are going to work in and put them in a nicely set up workshop where engines strip at the sign of a spanner (SEME) because they have been worked on 1000 times. It could speed up training and they might do ok on the course (enough to pass) but would they be a confident class 2 tradesman who could deliver the goods when required. At least if its a good 3-2 training that is in house (like ours) that isnt a definate pass until all the full screws and section heads and tiffies have agreed that the individual is competant. Some of the lads that havent made the grain havent got their class 2's yet but may of passed in a different enviroment on paper.
These are my views for what they are worth.

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War Hero

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I believe that the TA is an untapped commodity when it comes to training delivery or at least helping get ticks in the boxes. I was recently at 19 CSS, touting for work for a TA weekend, and the ASM there told me that it is fits and starts for the availability of eqp't to work on, what with WFM coming in and alot of eqpt remaining in theatre. For a large unit like that, the only work they had in was one Snatch Clutch and they have 10 VMs clambering all over it for currency etc.

It's not a solution to make the grade, but merely a facility with very good training aids to validate whether or not the crafties are up to scratch. It is entirely up to the Regular unit how they choose to use the facilities. Special tools and a full tech store set up is available too. TA needn't even be involved. An LAD or Wksp rocks up with Crafties and their own Staff and have a weekend or couple of weekdays on kit,with AESPs etc and they can do their own thing.

I'm being a little vehicle-centric as armourer training can be 1 to 1 within units and we don't specialise anything else as regards trade delivery. Although there are dedicated Recovery Companies. There are class rooms for lectures, so there is the potential for some leadership training to be thrown in too, with a little planning.

Granted there is the sterile environment of the Wksp too, but then when a vehicle comes on the shop floor, surely your dependant unit have steam cleaned the vehicle and provided a motivated driver to help out at every given opportunity(wink!!)

LE

Not my field but surely there are a fair few TA REME types who are mechanics in civ div and have alot of useful knowledge to bring to the table.

Whilst in BATUS I knew of a TA lad who proved useful time and time again down at the MT and he was INF cap badge. Mechanic in civ div who'd seen every fault under the sun and could recognise problems quicker and get stop vehicles needing to be VOR due to Prevention.

I know alot of you spanner swinging types are very capable but there is only so much you can learn when "The majority" of work we put "Our" LAD through is.

I Broke it, you fix it. Rather than, "That doesn't sound right that mate bring it in and get the bonnet up. Yep as i thought your heads are gonna go because your oil looks like milk"

Old-Salt

My unit has tried hard to orginise training and make it avalible to any other local REME but MTD's have been a real pain.
Also the latest maning figures under FAS mean that there are so few of us now there is little time to orginise anything other than the obligitory paper work.
As for regulars using our facilities/ training aids I see no problem other than I 'm not sure that theyd want to, most regular workshops have far better facilities than ours, the trianing aids are at least portable.

I have to agree with The_IRON about courses that are there just to tick the boxes being useless I'd go as far as say that they disrespect the Corps and produce people who can only do the job on paper. I went back to Bordon to do my VM juniors (I'm a crusty old VE 1) every one passed as a class 2 at least one on the course I wouldn't trust to carry my tool box far less know what to do with its contents. and again on my VM seniors the lads were all good plenty with previous knowlage and skills but if they hadn't it certanly wouldn't have been found out on that course.

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Same Shit different day!

Appoligies for crap spelling as dyslexia is a curse, so is being ugly or stupid fortunatly I only suffer from dyslexia!

My point is that Staff can come from the parent unit too, we can facilitate the training and, with planning, conduct it. But there is nothing to stop regular units coming up mob handed with Class 3s and Class 1's and carrying out there own serials, specific to the individuals needs.

Do VT deliver 3-2 trg? I hear that the 3-2 course is being resurrected..anyone verify this?

Old-Salt

We get our initial training by old fossils who dont know that they are dead yet. We get taught, go to units and then never get taught (updated) ever again. MY last trade training was years ago (not counting equipment courses). It is a scandalous system.

I speak to the TA and they have all come in from civi st and know all the latest trade info and practices. They have been taught AND updated. Compared to taught and forgot about.

LE

We get our initial training by old fossils who dont know that they are dead yet. We get taught, go to units and then never get taught (updated) ever again. MY last trade training was years ago (not counting equipment courses). It is a scandalous system.

I speak to the TA and they have all come in from civi st and know all the latest trade info and practices. They have been taught AND updated. Compared to taught and forgot about.

Some of these fossils are ex ASM so worthy of some respect. Maybe the prob lies with the fact that they thmselves are reliant upon their trade experience mostly over a decade old. When I was with the TA they had women VMs back in 1988 before women were accepted into the corps mainstream. And bloody good they were too (in the sack).

I'd crawl over fifteen miles of redhot broken glass to smell the exhaust fumes of the laundry van that took her knickers away.

The majority of the trade training given to our basic students hasn't changed for years. in most cases it has improved.

Admittedly some of the instruction could be better, but VT only pay peanuts now (the more senior VT & civil servants get a reasonable wage), so you can guess the standard of the newer instructors (not all of them though). However, most of the instructors are still very passionate about what they teach and will give the students as much as they can.

The big stumbling block in my opinion is the students themselves, most of them are not academically clever enough to retain the information given to them past the end of phase exams. They also lack any pre course experience. Back to the good old days , for those of us who have served say over 15 years, think back to your basic course. How many on your course had dismantled field bikes, mopeds, 125's or even their own car.. I know it was most of my course had. You are lucky if one person on a course today has any previous experience and that is normally limited to having changed the oil and filter maybe. One final point, think back to your basic course again....how many of them wanted to be VM's, most of my course did and we had a bit of passion about it. You ask the students today and the majority of the replies are a shoulder shrug or its what i was told I had to do...

LE

The big stumbling block in my opinion is the students themselves, most of them are not academically clever enough to retain the information given to them past the end of phase exams. They also lack any pre course experience. Back to the good old days , for those of us who have served say over 15 years, think back to your basic course. How many on your course had dismantled field bikes, mopeds, 125's or even their own car.. I know it was most of my course had. You are lucky if one person on a course today has any previous experience and that is normally limited to having changed the oil and filter maybe. One final point, think back to your basic course again....how many of them wanted to be VM's, most of my course did and we had a bit of passion about it. You ask the students today and the majority of the replies are a shoulder shrug or its what i was told I had to do...

Cannot agree with you more T.A.M, the points in my bold especially. As for whose fault it is then god knows, certainly not the course or its instructors.

I would hazard a guess that its the system and the fact that young kids nowadays are totally different. As you said, when i joined as a VM (16 yrs ago now) the majority of us on the course wanted to be a VM and cars, bikes etc etc was all we talked about! When i got to my 1st unit, the majority of the lads in the fitter sections were decent mechanics who could teach you a great deal.

When it came to the stage where i was a Cpl & Sgt VM that was not the case at all unfortunately.

"what you lot doing here? Is there nowt on't fcuking telly??"

"Are you going to fcuking do any work, or just lie out here all day doing whale impressions?"

The majority of the trade training given to our basic students hasn't changed for years. in most cases it has improved.

Admittedly some of the instruction could be better, but VT only pay peanuts now (the more senior VT & civil servants get a reasonable wage), so you can guess the standard of the newer instructors (not all of them though). However, most of the instructors are still very passionate about what they teach and will give the students as much as they can.

The big stumbling block in my opinion is the students themselves, most of them are not academically clever enough to retain the information given to them past the end of phase exams. They also lack any pre course experience. Back to the good old days , for those of us who have served say over 15 years, think back to your basic course. How many on your course had dismantled field bikes, mopeds, 125's or even their own car.. I know it was most of my course had. You are lucky if one person on a course today has any previous experience and that is normally limited to having changed the oil and filter maybe. One final point, think back to your basic course again....how many of them wanted to be VM's, most of my course did and we had a bit of passion about it. You ask the students today and the majority of the replies are a shoulder shrug or its what i was told I had to do...

Its not the dismantling of equipment the new VM's have got problem with, its the putting the things back together the B mechs cant do right
Thats why when i was running a fitter section I threw most of the spares demands in the bin and told them to repair it raher than renew it

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The majority of the trade training given to our basic students hasn't changed for years. in most cases it has improved.

Admittedly some of the instruction could be better, but VT only pay peanuts now (the more senior VT & civil servants get a reasonable wage), so you can guess the standard of the newer instructors (not all of them though). However, most of the instructors are still very passionate about what they teach and will give the students as much as they can.

The big stumbling block in my opinion is the students themselves, most of them are not academically clever enough to retain the information given to them past the end of phase exams. They also lack any pre course experience. Back to the good old days , for those of us who have served say over 15 years, think back to your basic course. How many on your course had dismantled field bikes, mopeds, 125's or even their own car.. I know it was most of my course had. You are lucky if one person on a course today has any previous experience and that is normally limited to having changed the oil and filter maybe. One final point, think back to your basic course again....how many of them wanted to be VM's, most of my course did and we had a bit of passion about it. You ask the students today and the majority of the replies are a shoulder shrug or its what i was told I had to do...

Its not the dismantling of equipment the new VM's have got problem with, its the putting the things back together the B mechs cant do right
Thats why when i was running a fitter section I threw most of the spares demands in the bin and told them to repair it raher than renew it

The majority of the trade training given to our basic students hasn't changed for years. in most cases it has improved.

Admittedly some of the instruction could be better, but VT only pay peanuts now (the more senior VT & civil servants get a reasonable wage), so you can guess the standard of the newer instructors (not all of them though). However, most of the instructors are still very passionate about what they teach and will give the students as much as they can.

The big stumbling block in my opinion is the students themselves, most of them are not academically clever enough to retain the information given to them past the end of phase exams. They also lack any pre course experience. Back to the good old days , for those of us who have served say over 15 years, think back to your basic course. How many on your course had dismantled field bikes, mopeds, 125's or even their own car.. I know it was most of my course had. You are lucky if one person on a course today has any previous experience and that is normally limited to having changed the oil and filter maybe. One final point, think back to your basic course again....how many of them wanted to be VM's, most of my course did and we had a bit of passion about it. You ask the students today and the majority of the replies are a shoulder shrug or its what i was told I had to do...

Its not the dismantling of equipment the new VM's have got problem with, its the putting the things back together the B mechs cant do right
Thats why when i was running a fitter section I threw most of the spares demands in the bin and told them to repair it raher than renew it