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Grappling in Kata

i just remembered reading something in the past about jujutsu in kata, or hapkido in taekwondo patterns. have any of you made these discoveries? do yall think historically jujutsu techniques were put in the kata, therefore making the jujutsu techniques official kata applications? this thought actually somewhat excites me since i love jujutsu and hapkido. it would be nice to say these grappling techinques are a part of karate or taekwondo.

For me i think there are these techniques in the kata/patterns, but maybe to a more basic level thn ju jitsu. if you look at some of the more ocmmon techniques that are found across the grappling styles, arm bars, out side wrist locks (kotegaishi) and some of the throwing techniques. i think that you can find most of them in the kata, as well as defences to people trying to grapple you

This could warrant a VERY big answer so I'll try to keep it brief and guide you to the answers rather than actually answer.

Firstly, I've said this before and I mind repeating it because I'm sure that this is common initial reaction and I'm not afraid to admit that I'm wrong. As someone that has primarily studied Jujitsu but also done Karate my first thoughts of Iain's Bunkai were "this is a Jujitsu guy trying to apply it to Karate." Of course for a whole multitude of reasons this is extremely far from the truth. If you haven't already, please immerse yourself in some of Iain's work and indeed the works of other members of this forum.

Techniques are common to styles. No style can "own" a technique. Actually that isn't true, very few techniques can be attributed to one specific style. Brazilian Jujitsu is, I think, a notable exception where new techniques are springing up all the time. Although I thought the Gogoplata was a recently devised technique until I saw it in a decade old Judo book recently under the name "Kakato Jime" (heel choke). I digress.

The Kata (and yes, TKD patterns) do contain many techniques, both locks and throws that I have first learned from Jujitsu. You need to consider the history of their creation. TKD is largely Shotokan but where did Shotokan get it's techniques? For that matter, where did Jujitsu get it's techniques from?

I think the best answer is that the Kata (and TKD patterns) contain many techniques that that typically attributed to Jujitsu but don't deliberately record "Jujitsu techniques," they record Karate techniques that are common to other arts, including Jujitsu.

Yeah it contains locks, throws etc..but Karate isn't Jujutsu or Aikido, the throws and locks are in a different place strategically, so Karate/TKD shouldn't just be punching and kicking with some Jujutsu thrown in..you have to understand the throws etc. in the context of the kata, and the strategy they represent.

tau, are you saying historically jujutsu and karate influenced each other?

zach zinn, im a bit confused. you suggest the locks and throws in the katas were orginally put in by the creators of the kata. am i right? i thought any grappling in the kata i see now are nothing more than modern interpretations of karate people. they are seeing what they want to see in my opinion.

There is direct, photographic evidence that Karate pioneers trained these kind of techniques, there are photos of them doing this kind of stuff. There are stories about Choki Motobu using Kote-geashi..they definitely knew the techniques.

Some may be modern interpretation, but old standards like hip throws, arm presses etc. are definitely there, in fact i'd say the modern bit is the assumption that it's only punches and kicks.

Things can certainly go too much in the other direction, such as kata interpretation turning into bad Jujutsu instead of Karate..but that's a strategy thing I think.

The techniques are definitely "there" in some way, and there is too much direct evidence these days to state otherwise.

I think the above posts have made a good job of expressing my view is on this. Nevertheless, I’ll briefly repeat those points in my own words :-)

It’s a mistake to label any grappling technique a “Jujutsu technique” and from there suppose that any art that has similar methods much have acquired them from Jujutsu. There are throws taught in my native grappling art of Cumberland & Westmorland wrestling that are also found in jujutsu. Cumberland & Westmorland wrestling is said to have been brought to this part of the world by the Vikings. So to follow the suggestion posed in the original post we would have to ask how a time travelling samurai made his way up to northern Europe to teach the combatively clueless natives those throws. Or we could opt for the simple explanation that two groups of people, in different parts of the world, at different points in history, had a wrestle and independently discovered the same methods to be effective. A hip throw is both a “Jujutsu technique” and a “Cumberland & Westmorland wrestling technique”; there does not need to be a historical and instructional connection between the two. It’s therefore also an error to say the grappling in karate is made up of “Jujutsu techniques”.

As a further example, almost every culture in the world has made use of spears, swords, shields, bows and arrows, etc. This was not because one group tied something pointy to the end of a stick and then spent eons communicating their discovery to the rest of humanity; it was simply because posed with the same problems people independently develop similar solutions.

Thomas wrote:

i thought any grappling in the kata i see now are nothing more than modern interpretations of karate people. they are seeing what they want to see in my opinion.

martial arts are not unique to the asian civilizations. Every culture developted a martial culture. So if you look at greek pancration you can not distinguish from japanese ju jutsu (besides the clothing).

So when someone puts on a wristlock or an armbar you simply cannot tell if the one practises Ju Jutsu, Pancration , Shaolin Chinna or any martial arts at all.

As long as we fighting members of the human species (two arms, two legs, a head, a torso...) the principles to successfully subdue an opponent are all the same.

So, as Iain mentioned before, you cannont label a throw a judo thing, a lock a ju jutsu thing and a punch a karate thing. There is no such thing like a karate punch. Close your eyes and let someone wack you with a punch. Can you tell what kind of punch hit you? You can tell if it was a straight or a hook maybe, but nothing else.

Like Zack Zinn said the formation of styles is only a matter of strategic orientation. Some focus more on throwing, some emphasis on striking. For example, if your opponent wears heavy armor you rely on throwing, strikes and kicks will have no effect.

As a further example, almost every culture in the world has made use of spears, swords, shields, bows and arrows, etc. This was not because one group tied something pointy to the end of a stick and then spent eons communicating their discovery to the rest of humanity; it was simply because posed with the same problems people independently develop similar solutions.

I have to agree with that. Before golf and computer games we grappled for fun. Tegumi, aka Okinawan Sumo, was very popular before, during and after karate came into being. Fighting arts don't evolve independently, they borrow and influence one another. Usually its the type of combat which determines how we fight. It its for fun the rules will not allow certain techniques/weapons. Also, when discussing the similarities between "ju-jutsu, karate-grappling, wrestling and other methods" keep in mind that there's only so many ways the human body can move. Therefore techniques common to one style will be found in others. Unless of course the Samurai read H.G. Wells before we did. :) BTW: Kano did read about and borrow from western styles of grappling.