Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

So, this is the Yamaha G1 in the choir room at church. I had tuned it about a week or so, ago, but there were more than a few things with my work that I wasn't happy with, so I went back yesterday to give it another go. I am using a Sanderson Accutuner with Bill's custom EBVT III and stretch settings for another of the same model of piano. I am a monkey with a wrench and a slave to the spinning red lights. "Make them stop! Make them stop!!!" This is the Allemande from Handel's Keyboard Suite No. 15.

Both the tuning and the playing are works in progress. The piano needs regulating, so my touch was on the heavy-handed side of things for a piece that ought to be played lightly. I spliced together the better takes to provide relatively trouble-free, uninterrupted listening , but other than that, there is no processing added to the sound except gain. I put the digital recorder about four feet from the tail of the piano with the piano lid fully open. Also, the sustain pedal has developed a squeak. Considering all of that, I hope you can enjoy it! Comments are welcomed, as always.

Thanks for the comments, Chuck! Sorry it took so long to get bach to you.

Here is a Kimball 42" console--the piano of a friend who offered me a chance to satisfy my newfound tuning addiction. I had tuned it a few weeks ago, and since prior to that it had not been tuned since 1974 (the "free" tuning after arriving in its new home, according to a pencil note written on one of the keys) it needed a pitch raise. So, pitch raise it got, and a tuning, and I went back on Wed. to see how it was doing and give it another tuning. This console reminds me of the Lester in a way (false beats, weird phasings, wonky tenor...) Anyway, interested listeners, here is EBVT III on someone else's Kimball:

Monday night and Tuesday morning I practiced tuning the Mighty Lester. I'm using Bill's custom settings for the Lester that he put in the SAT, but this time I really hawked down on getting the bass to behave.

Recorded this last night when it was quiet, after the snowplows finished making noise:

Also, here's a bonus track, (recorded last night, as well)... Not quite ready for prime time, but I got it all in one take!

@Marty: I crafted those staccatos with you in mind! I'm working on another sweet little ditty, a well known seasonal song from 1921 called "April Showers," that has chorded staccato in the right hand (legato melody in the left). I cannot yet say that I don't still get a little free-handed at times, but at least I'm consciously trying to rein it in!

@Keith: It is a Betsy Ross spinet. It came with wooden elbows, not platic ones, for which I am grateful, since I did not know what I was doing when I bought the piano almost 20 years ago. All I knew was it had a touch that I could work with, and a pretty nice sound, and the price was right, and it looked so forlorn tucked back in the church boiler room.

It's actually a pretty solid little piano! But it had "issues." Ringing dampers and clicks and clacks and double strikes and... you get the picture. All any of the tuners who serviced it would do is slap a tuning on it, and say, "Good enough." Oh, sure, they'd try to seat a damper or two when I complained, but if it took more than a few minutes to wrestle with the thing, they'd say, "That's as good as I can get it" and pack up their tools, and leave some intervals that would irritate me until the piano would settle out of tune, again.

When I had my first mid-life crisis and got back to playing piano with re-newed passion, I was trying to decide if I wanted to fix up the Lester or save up for a new piano. I've talked elsewhere about the personal calculus that each owner must do when making such a decision, and I won't bore you with my own details (PM me if you want the whole story), but they are many and multidimensional and there is an undeniable spiritual aspect to all of it, as well. Suffice it to say, one tech gave me an estimate for regulation and voicing that pretty much told me he didn't want job. (Being a tradesman, I know that trick, and I've gladly accepted challenging work, at my normal rate, in the wake of such rejected bids. Pfft.)

Anyway, when Bill wasn't very far into tuning the Lester for the first time, I saw him doing something with the back of the keys that was going "clunk, clunk, clunk," and I said, "What are you doing?," and he said, "Just a little regulating." And I said, "Really? Well, what are you doing?," and he said, "Just seating these capstans. It doesn't take very long to do, and it can make a big difference." It did. Looking back on it all, that's pretty much when I committed to fixing up the Lester. It took me a little while longer than that to fully commit, but that was a significant epiphany moment.

Long story shorter, I asked Bill for an estimate to do a full regulation and that I wanted to help with the work (more personal calculus at the conclusion of my second mid-life crisis) and we replaced the damper felts and bent wires and spoons, and filed the hammers and leveled the keys, and retensioned springs and allkindastufflikethat. (Some of the details about that occur earlier in this thread, (for instance, posts on 12-12-10 and 3-22-11). BTW, I thought Bill's normal rate for this work was very fair, and in my opinion (that's the important part) I was more than happy with the results and considered that it has all been "worth it.").

Later, Bill showed me some needling tricks, and so I got after it, and over-needled D5, or so I thought, until the next time he came to tune and said, "It's the nicest sounding one of the bunch." At one point, Marty concurred with that assessment (the internet is an amazing thing!), so then I had to re-think what I was hearing from the hammers, and really went to town with the voicing idea. I know it ain't perfect, but it's better than it was, and I play the durned thing so much, the hammers are ready to be filed again, I think.

That's the long way of saying that the hammers are original, as is everything else on the piano except the damper felts and some judiciously placed duct tape and fine-threaded drywall screws. I think this piano is the place where calculus, metaphysics, and shop class meets.

I had an opportunity to tune a 43" Yamaha console today in a church sanctuary. I used the Sanderson Accutuner with Bill's settings for a piano of the same brand and size. When I was through tuning, I played a couple of pieces--some Handel, some Bach, a couple Scriabin preludes--just to check the tuning. I made some tweeks to the bass and cleaned up a few unisons that I had missed, then got out Sondheim's "Send In The Clowns." It is in the key of Eb. I don't know exactly what is going on here (though I have some ideas...), but I was mystified and somewhat stunned by the sound that was coming from the piano, so I got out my Tascam digital recorder to capture it. I was not expecting this sound from Eb.

It strikes me as being nervous, longing, and sad at the same time. I usually associate Eb with a kind of sonorous, grounded, happy peace (I'm probably wrong about that, as usual...) Anyway, sorry about the fingernail clicks, the page turn, and the trucks in the background.

I had an opportunity to tune a 43" Yamaha console today in a church sanctuary. I used the Sanderson Accutuner with Bill's settings for a piano of the same brand and size. When I was through tuning, I played a couple of pieces--some Handel, some Bach, a couple Scriabin preludes--just to check the tuning. I made some tweeks to the bass and cleaned up a few unisons that I had missed, then got out Sondheim's "Send In The Clowns." It is in the key of Eb. I don't know exactly what is going on here (though I have some ideas...), but I was mystified and somewhat stunned by the sound that was coming from the piano, so I got out my Tascam digital recorder to capture it. I was not expecting this sound from Eb.

It strikes me as being nervous, longing, and sad at the same time. I usually associate Eb with a kind of sonorous, grounded, happy peace (I'm probably wrong about that, as usual...) Anyway, sorry about the fingernail clicks, the page turn, and the trucks in the background.

Any comments about the tuning would be appreciated by this learner.

--Andy

Is this in EBVT? I hear too rapid beating in the Eb major harmonies. When, and after, tuning with the ETD did you run though any 10th progressions, and check double octaves for cleanliness? If a lower Eb to an upper G is too wide an interval you will get this kind of sound. The other chords sounded a bit better. Making tweaks based on playing pieces is not a good idea.

[...] Is this in EBVT? I hear too rapid beating in the Eb major harmonies. When, and after, tuning with the ETD did you run though any 10th progressions, and check double octaves for cleanliness? If a lower Eb to an upper G is too wide an interval you will get this kind of sound. The other chords sounded a bit better. Making tweaks based on playing pieces is not a good idea.

Good question, Chris! All I know is that I liked the way it sounded, and didn't want to change it!

One of the problems with tuning electronically is the possibility of tuning one note imperceptibly sharp and another imperceptibly flat. This is how disasters. Like this come about. Whenever I tune the bass, I always check 5ths and 10ths, whatever temperament I am using. These checks can be used by an inexperienced tuner because they are easily heard when they are intolerable. if you had played a run of 10ths and 17ths, I think you would have spotted the comical effect of your Eb major chord. I think you could very judiciously narrow the bass octaves enough to reduce this rapid beating to within tolerable levels without compromising other intervals much. You would have to start right at the temperament area to gain enough narrowing by the time you get to the low Eb. I know I always have when I tune unequal. It is more difficult with a smaller piano, they are less forgiving in this respect than a larger, higher quality instrument.I suspect that the tuners in the days of unequal temperaments would have tended towards this narrowing anyway. I have the early music rooms right next to my office and, while I am not responsible for the harpsichords, I hear a lot of unequal temperaments. Early music always sounds a bit like Christmas.

It seems to me there is an awful lot of talk about stretch in these forums and of UT's. Enthusiasts start to want it both ways, excessive stretch coupled with unequal temperaments doesn't work. The one defeats the purpose of the other.

The cancelling effect of equal beating is fine if you can find that spot but remember it has no effect on the two part stuff and in multiple voice playing, pianists tend to emphasise some notes which, unless they are aware of what they are playing on and know how to use it, the cancelling effect can out-cancel itself.

Thank you, rxd! I appreciate the critique and the second witness. I'll take what you and Chris have said and work with it! Like our PW friend "Little Blue Engine" says, "I'll figure it out, eventually. Until then, you might want to keep a safe distance."

Andy, I just read that you are happy with it and that's OK as long as the church is happy too.

Of course, if you ever tune for Charles Asnavour.....

After your comments, I went back to the church this morning to go at it, again. I arrived to find a choir class just beginning--a group of 11 or 12 year olds who were getting schooled in the meaning of fermata and ritardando and D.S. al Coda. So, being a lifelong learner, I sat down to listen. When the teacher dug into the piano, I could see the look on his face, and he was clearly happy. To my ears, the piano seemed to have a lot of life in it. It sounded energetic. And the teacher was playing with vigor and excitement. Now, I will grant you, the piano had not been tuned in a number of years, so it might have simply been the "better than it was" factor, but he was smiling while he played, so, I was happy about that.

Anyway, after the class was finished, I went to work applying your suggestions. I left the ETD in the bag, and narrowed the bass and tested by 10ths. I left everything in the treble alone. Here is what I came up with. You will hear window cleaning squeaks in the background, and some conversation and bumps and such, as the second wave cleaning crew were keeping me company. (Much quieter than yesterday's first wave of vacuuming and mopping. ) I edited out the most egregious playing errors, so if anyone goes to the trouble of using forensic software to find out who is meeting Julio down by the schoolyard, the conversation probably won't make any sense.

Then, I played a little Handel ditty in the key of Bb (testing, Chris. Sorry! At this stage, I'm using whatever straws I can grab on to! I'll get there, though... ). D3 was poking its thumb in my eye, so I got the ETD out of the bag, and redid all of the bass bi-chords by it, and did the single wound strings by ear. I noticed C5 was flat, and brought it into line, but that is the only thing I changed in the treble. So, here's that one, and this is the way I left it:

The state of tuning before you tuned is important if there is only one tuning pass. If the piano was more than about 5 to 6 cents off pitch to begin, then after using an ETD there will end up being different sections of the piano reverting back towards the original pitch by different amounts. This matters less with aural tuning because tuning is more relative to itself, but is more noticeable when tuning with an ETD because every note is tuned to an external absolute reference. The piano has to be quite on pitch on average before doing a final fine pass.

When posting tuning for critique, is it possible to send something like Weiyan does, i.e. some basic progressions and octaves, and then followed by a piece? In that way it is easier to determine more definitively what may be wrong.

It is not possible to state about justness when the pedal is used so much, and without intervals, but your unison seem to be about quite right in the last tuning (better than the precedent anyway, justness apart)

_________________________
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Thanks, rxd! So did I! It was open and warm and enveloping, but then when I ran into that D3, I lost my confidence and went back to the machine. I thought the machine version seemed tight and "on," but somehow not as "musical" (?). (Or, "musically satisfying"? Something...)

Anyway, thank you so much for listening! Who knows what disasters I can make today, it being a new day, and all!

And you are more confident in your tuning the first time you play, so it sound better despite the tuning which is strange.

That is a trap when you get caught in your tuning and find it good, then play with sustain pedal engaged and cannot notice where it will be unaccepteable if played differntly or with less enthusiasm.

That damned pedal is to be left unused when checking your tuning, it makes like if someone is massging your back while you play, and one tend to loose its critical ear in the flow of sound.

Not to say that many times the piano needs a little voicing and the tuner can only obtain to some clarity and purity, with some hard spots under the surface of tone but when listening to tuning we dont take that aspect in account so much.

BUR, the better the tuning, the more unevenesses in tone or intervals will be perceived (hence the success of the WT among tuners that are not much experienced; that limits the ear ability to catch tuning defects)

It is not a bug, it is a feature ! Well done, in a particular situation and on the adequate instrument, they can provide an ambiance that please the listener.

Rarely on the modern concert piano , whose the tone have been cleaned and "purified" of its "defects" a lot.

If harmonically I get some meaning I will never complain about. When one tonality suddenly sound as if the trousers where 2 size small then I cannot go along (and it happened almost any time I listened to recordings in UT's).

On a piece that use 2 chords if they are in the good mood for the temperament used, chances are that the result is pleasing, but musicians use generally more tonalities.

Edited by Olek (03/20/1312:54 PM)

_________________________
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

I just re-tuned the M&H RBB to EBVT III. It had Ari's ET tuning on it for about 8 months.

When I post the recordings, I am trying to do a 'broadcast' quality tuning...it is NOT easy...lol. So with that in mind here are 5 new selections, all played on the LX by M.Garson, a great jazz pianist. One of the notes in the first selection, I could not get a clean sound. Prob the hammer needs some angle-shot voicing...don't know how to do that yet. The hammers have not been voiced since Ari's visit in August, 2012, they are due for it.

Another factor, I read about.... Olek talks about this in another thread, unisons. I found it fascinating, and I tried to do that in this set of recordings. I really focused on getting a clean "bloom" to sound throughout the length of the decay, not just after the initial blow. Bill Bremmer taught me to listen to the decay for a clean unison, and I think this builds on that. I did all the unisons by ear, except the very low bass notes and the 7th octave. I used the IPAD Verituner with the pre-set measured EBVT III tuning Bill Bremmer did for me. This measured tuning is specific for this M&H.

Fresh tuning started with No. 1, ends with No. 5, without cleaning any unisons up in between. For the most part, the tuning held up pretty well, considering I changed the temperament after 8 months.

A word about EBVT III and ET....I like them both....they both have things to offer that are very pleasing in different ways.

Just a refresh on this piano...it's a rebuilt 1927 Mason & Hamlin RBB, 7ft, with the Wapin Bridge conversion. It has Ari Isaac's Profundo Bass Strings, (incredible sound), and his "Classical West" hammers. Tokiwa action and shanks, Roslau treble wire, original soundboard. It has both an Ampico roll player and a modern LX solenoid playback system. Any and all comments are welcome!

For the recording, I used a Korg MR 1000 digital, with a pair of Avenson ST-2 mics. No processing etc to the files, except to "normalize" the tracks for loudness and balance.

I like the basses and find (you may have noticed that) how much they are made alive but your new unison tuning (yes there is a certain participation when the "bloom" (meaning the top specra) have been "combed"

I still miss some more density of tone at the attack, that will lenghten an thicken the bloom. If the hammers have some resource that should be possible but I doubt of it.

I am persuaded you are beginning to understand what I mean there.

The tone is beginning to have that "3d dimension" that is noticed expressive pianos.

Your octaves C#3-4 C3-4 B3-4 ... When you will be secure with unisons, do the same (by ear) with your octaves. that is exactly the same listening.

Did you notice that you begin to have a clear "attack" in the tone ?

Thanks for the recordings, the quality is very good.

Greetings

Edited by Olek (04/09/1307:02 AM)

_________________________
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialistI wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

Thanks Olek, and your welcome....happy to share this experience with everyone. I appreciate your feedback and praise.

It's been a fun journey, learning from everyone here on PW, and the pro's that have come to visit and work on the piano.

Yes, the whole piano seemed to come alive even more by carefully tuning the unisons by ear this way. I was going for the clean attack, yes I can hear it now! What helped me to a great degree, was listening to your video on unisons, and the end result. I knew that the decay was needed to be clean, and I was made more aware of how important this is. When I heard it, I understood what you were going for. Before, as soon as I heard a relatively straight tone on a unison, I was satisfied. Now it's another level up from that....ear training!!

I have another pair of mics I have not used in awhile. In fact, they were the ones we originally used for the first posting of this thread. Rode NT5's. However, we had used the cardioid capsule at that time, Patrick (pppt) had suggested that. This time, I put on the omni capsules just to see what they sounded like. Interesting the difference in overall sound. The Avenson's I used for the above 5 Anrew LLoyd Weber pieces, are also omini mics.

My take on these NT5 omnis, I am hearing a slightly cleaner sound...perhaps a bit more real piano sound? You can really hear this with headphones. I use a very inexpensive headphone called Koss Porta-Pro. what do you all think of these mics compared to the Avensons?

The piano is holding much better than it ever has for me. I was very careful to tune from the flat side, with very little pin movement as was possible.

One question to all the tuners...when the string is already flat, assuming it's not an old piano that has not been tuned in years, does one need to drop the pitch slightly even more before pulling it up to pitch? I know it will help prevent string breakage by lowering first, but is it necessary for a stable tuning on a frequently tuned piano? BTW, since I started tuning back in 2004, I have only broken 1 string on C8, a very old rusty string upright...I have always dropped the pitch slightly first when tuning.

Hi Andy....yes, same config that Patrick suggested back when i started this thread. Here is a pic of the Rode's....the Avensons I used yesterday/today, are basically in the same position, prob a little closer into the piano, no string cover in any of the recordings, inc the recent ones. 45 deg angle...you position them where they sound the best, by using your head, literally...put your head in the area, move it around, where it sounds the best, put the mics there in that config...this comes from Patrick.

After listening to it for awhile, I see what you guys are saying...the Rode is also a bit more in your face, less room acoustics....mic position was the same pretty much, just exchanged the mics, left the stands in the exact position. The Avenson's have the same transducer as the very expensive QTC mics.

Did anyone notice in the Solfegetto Avenson recording, at the beginning around 00:14' there is a car going up the street in the background?...it's like a 3d sound effect, with headphones that is....interesting.