Azuaron:feminism: A social theory or political movement supporting the equality of both sexes in all aspects of public and private life; specifically, a theory or movement that argues that legal and social restrictions on females must be removed in order to bring about such equality.

Wrong. Sometimes what words mean changes. This is one of those times. The only kinds of "feminists" left these days (only people who still refer to themselves as feminists, anyway) are ones that want women to be superior and fuck men. They don't want equality. Feminism now effectively means wanting women to be superior. And I say fuck it, let them have that word, because that's what it sounds like it should mean anyway. We can come up with a new term for people who want equality (which is plenty of men and women). I vote for "rational, intelligent people." Let feminists mean crazy nutjob who wants women to be considered superior to men. Just let them have it! Stop arguing about what to call them and start arguing about something important.

EstrogenicMuscle:I love how trolls feel like bastions of logic with statements like "it's just words" and "if you can't take the heat, get off the internet". And that, they're not raging angry psychopaths, they're laughing at your pain and stupidity for a logically superior position.

But in reality, they think they can change the world by bullying someone into silence, and not only that, they think they can make it work every time. And in this case, how raging they must be that the made her stronger, and they know it. In fact they may use it as a sick justification, "ha, poor her. Thanks to all those so called terrible rape threats, she's successful. We made her." like a bunch of creeps. And what that shows, is how angry they are they can't talk down someone into submission on the internet. They want their sick rape threats to have power to silence every time, and they can't have it. And it ticks them off to no end.

And I'm glad it does. I'm glad that they're powerless. And I'm glad that they've done little but manage to give her and the issue more publicity.

I don't even know how qualified and how well Anita will be able to handle such a load of money and a burden that comes with doing an extensive topic well and utilize hundreds of thousands of dollars well and in a way that will please her supports. That is a huge responsibility placed on her shoulders and I would be scared to death of it being placed on mine. I sure as heck am not qualified to use that money efficiently and properly and I own and have played over a thousand games. And have read dozens of books on feminism and gender.

And well, I think that if she isn't qualified to do all this, I honestly think she will try her very best with what she has. I truly believe that she has great intentions and, having loads of money and responsibility, is trying to carefully plan the best course of action. One of the criticisms she is facing right now is that she's asking for advice. And I'm sure she is asking for advice all over the place, I'm glad she is, I would be too. And honestly, the way this has been drawn attention to, if she can't handle this burden alone, I'm more than certain this chain of events will lead to someone who can take up the torch just as well.

I've been a critic of Anita since the get-go, but these troll attempts on her just make me shake my head in sadness. They've gone into survival mode where they're getting even more vicious and pissy against Anita and anyone who doesn't despise her with the heat of a thousand suns and fall in line behind them. And, like Jim said, anyone with a legitimate beef with her is paying the price.

edit: Actually, that picture doesn't work. These people are true believers in how they conduct themselves, unfortunately for the rest of us.

I'm always a huge fan of people who go into forums or comments JUST to mention how sick they are of a debate...thus increasing the page views, forum comment #s (especially with the people who'll reply) and the forums' prominence on whatever site is hosting them. It's not like someone FORCED you to click on it, you could've just ignored it and gone back to sublimating your repressed sexuality with gobs of violence. Unless...wait...if someone is forcing you to make inane, irrelevant comments, BLINK TWICE!!

That it's the year 2012. We should have sorted out issues like that ten years ago and we still haven't. We chose to ignore it and now that some people have started to protest we try our hardest to shut them up because, you know, it's not like anyone wants to get out of his way to solve problems instead of just waiting till everyone forgets about them. No, women shouldn't be portrayed in games like they are now for a pretty big part and we all should be able to see this. Stubbornly saying "there is no problem" doesn't help anyone.

Nope, sorry, had to slap up the ol' "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" outside the treehouse. Because DAMNIT, if they didn't like videogames (at least not publicly) while we were in school, WE'LL BE GOOD GODDAMNED IF THEY GET TO LIKE THEM NOW!!! LOGIC!!!!!

Azuaron:feminism: A social theory or political movement supporting the equality of both sexes in all aspects of public and private life; specifically, a theory or movement that argues that legal and social restrictions on females must be removed in order to bring about such equality.

Wrong. Sometimes what words mean changes. This is one of those times. The only kinds of "feminists" left these days (only people who still refer to themselves as feminists, anyway) are ones that want women to be superior and fuck men. They don't want equality. Feminism now effectively means wanting women to be superior. And I say fuck it, let them have that word, because that's what it sounds like it should mean anyway. We can come up with a new term for people who want equality (which is plenty of men and women). I vote for "rational, intelligent people." Let feminists mean crazy nutjob who wants women to be considered superior to men. Just let them have it! Stop arguing about what to call them and start arguing about something important.

Hello there! You sound like a reasonable, upstanding figure of the escapist community.

aegix drakan:TBH, I'm curious about what the hell she's gonna say about Bastion, though. I don't understand how that game is in ANY WAY sexist.

That's what I was wondering. If I was writing this series myself, my argument would focus around the fact that Zia really doesn't do anything. The Kid is the center of all the action in the game (and is the surrogate for the main character who is thus implied to be male), Rucks builds weapons and guides the Kid on his quest and Zulf acts as an antagonist, helping damage the Bastion and manipulating the remaining Ura into attacking. Zia? Besides singing, sitting around waiting to be rescued, being kidnapped and making you stew... not much really. She's simply the person Rucks is talking to all this time. Even in her backstory she is simply used to set up her father as a criminal, not really doing much herself. Since this series is going to be called women vs tropes, I'd point out that the trope I'm describing can be found on TVTropes as Men Act, Women Are. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MenActWomenAre

(Disclaimer: I'm playing devil's advocate here. I don't believe that this was Supergiant's intent or that Bastion is an inherently sexist game. In fact, Bastion is currently my favorite game ever.)

Back on topic, there are people who make me reluctant to call myself a feminist, but there are relatively few of them compared to the hordes of males on the internet who feel totally safe making kitchen jokes. Being lumped in with them when I call myself a gamer is incredibly frustrating but reasonable gamers do have a responsibility to do something about them IMO.

Edit to note: I had only heard of Anita Sarkeesian from this video, although I had heard of Tropes vs Women previously. She might have made the argument above, I don't know.

mrblakemiller:Pretty much this in spades. I knew about Anita a long time before this debacle (gender theory being a hobby of mine) and I was consistently disappointed with her selfish brand of feminism (by that I mean she's actually said that it's okay for movies to have female antagonists "occasionally," as if women deserve to be so well-portrayed in the media that the idea that a woman could be a criminal or other bad person should itself be a novel thought). I was sure she was going to do the same thing she's always done with this new batch of videos, essentially saying that negative portrayals of women by and large shouldn't exist in video games for some inadequate reason like, "Because there are currently a disproportionate number of negative protrayals!"

In the video you're talking about she doesn't say stop making any women evil,but stop onlymaking seductive evil trickster women. "Hollywood writers I don't have a problem with you occasionally making some of your villains female,but you've gotta stop writing women who's primary weapon is her sexuality."

Basically can you think of three evil women(not already in a relationship of sorts) who get a decent amount of screen time in a movie who aren't trying to "sleep with" the hero(when the hero is a guy) to get them to lower there guard,steal something or get information. It's very rare for a villainess to be somewhat like Marvel's Kingpin: a crime boss in the underworld who doesn't take off his shirt when ever a female hero walks in to try to seduce her, Megatron: leader of an army who's rarely defeated on the battlefield except by being out numbered or by the opposing leader/rival.

Even in support roles it's rare, like in "Batman the Animated Series" you have women like Harley Quinn and various female henchmen for the Penguin, the Riddler, Mr. Freeze who's jobs seemed to be dress skimpy,hold a gun, and fight Bat-Girl if she's there(Harley actually having a name gets more diversity but still tricks Batman "Granted she works for the Joker".)While guys henchmen can guard places,set explosives, fight Batman & Robin, take hostages and drive most of the time.(Barring female centric gang/organisations.)

Azuaron:feminism: A social theory or political movement supporting the equality of both sexes in all aspects of public and private life;

[...]

Get that? Feminism is for the equality of the sexes.

Name five prominent feminists that defended male rights?

I didn't want to be anal about this, but the word just sounds wrong and should be changed. It's like if the opposite of Racism was Blackism.

Wha...? Name five prominent Americans that have defended, I don't know, Vaishyas rights. Name five prominent cancer survivors who publicly advocate for curing malaria in Africa. Hell, name five prominent blacks that have defended white rights.

That's not even an argument. Being for women's rights has nothing to do with men's rights. And, by and large, men have all the damn rights anyway (note: I'm a man, a white man. I know what it's like to have all the damn rights. Kind of nauseating, really...)

Ugh, this is all just a shitty affair isn't it? Nobody's on the "good side" and nobody is doing any good for the causes they want. The video says about the trolls, but Anita has the same amount of problems and really isn't helping feminism at all. Sure, one could play the blame game and say it was the trolls, or Anita who made this mess. But really, if both sides stopped being idiots then the whole thing would've come and gone. Anita should have blocked her comments and ignored the trolls. And the trolls should have not threatened to rape her and made endless threads about her.

I guess I just feel like every time I see this stuff come up, people just dismiss it, because everyone is already talking about it. Or someone spouts bile to incite the masses. Or something. Yeah, I talk about it with my friends, but this really just makes me feel better, it doesn't solve the problem, or even get other people thinking about it. I'm just preaching to the choir. To use your LoL example: Yeah, making friends with cool people online will improve your personal LoL experience. You won't have to deal with anyone going AFK on you because someone is playing a champ they think is bad. But this doesn't fix the problem, you just don't see it anymore. And, while it would be awesome if everyone did that and all the trolls vanished for everyone currently playing, it doesn't help new people joining the game, because the problem was never actually solved. To keep with the LoL metaphor: to really fix the LoL community, I'd say get your friend voting on the Tribunal. It might not be the absolute be-all-end-all community glue, but it's at least a step in a constructive direction.

First off feeling isn't the same as what is actually happening or the amount of effort companies in the video game industry go through just to get their game green lighted for development.

But while you and everyone else needs to vent once in a while you have to realize that this isn't a problem that can really be fixed because the end result comes down to you either let the person have free will in their private lives or you take control of their private lives of what they can and cannot do. There is no way you can legislate some law to make what you feel to be a problem illegal and if anything I would question what you feel is some major problem is just feels bigger because that's the trend, feelings.

If people who played video games really had this problem then where is the equivalent of the KKK, Nazi, and other hateful groups actually having some public guild, clan, or organization and what those groups promote somehow control what developers create or how other individuals should act while playing video games on or off line? I explore some of the darkest places of the internet and I can tell you when it comes to video game clans I'm sure you can find those hateful groups but the power and influence they actually really have or their actual size is extremely small especially when you compare it to organizations that put their reputation on the line everyday. You have groups like PMS clan, the ECA, the EMA, Team Liquid, and many more that have a lot more power and influence on video game policy to protect your right to play video games to equal representation.

You have to stop putting your feelings first and actually examine the real situation of who is really out there and what are they doing. Because at the end of the day this problem that you are simply feeling is doing the same thing what you are doing now. You are venting your feelings in your private life and decide to do it this way instead of playing a match of lol and being frustrated or decide to be an asshole after a shitty day at work and troll.

Also, yes, making groups does solve the problem because you expand your group and the people you talk to. People get to know who you are and how you roll and that includes the treatment of other people regardless of their gender. You meet people new everyday and the best way to change people's mind is just one person at a time.

Also I talk to A LOT of riot employees tribunal is not as cracked up as you would think it is. If anything they have created their own problems by exactly what this whole situation is about, trying to enforce a standard on people that isn't of their own volition. In other words Riot would of been better off just leaving order to be brought from chaos. Because either way the impact of tribunal has only done more harm than good even though most people don't need another companies policy being forced upon them as a dogma. Tribunal is just about punishment and has the same flaws as our justice system when it comes to the prison system because it isn't about rehabilitation but only punishment.

Azuaron:feminism: A social theory or political movement supporting the equality of both sexes in all aspects of public and private life; specifically, a theory or movement that argues that legal and social restrictions on females must be removed in order to bring about such equality.

Wrong. Sometimes what words mean changes. This is one of those times. The only kinds of "feminists" left these days (only people who still refer to themselves as feminists, anyway) are ones that want women to be superior and fuck men. They don't want equality. Feminism now effectively means wanting women to be superior. And I say fuck it, let them have that word, because that's what it sounds like it should mean anyway. We can come up with a new term for people who want equality (which is plenty of men and women). I vote for "rational, intelligent people." Let feminists mean crazy nutjob who wants women to be considered superior to men. Just let them have it! Stop arguing about what to call them and start arguing about something important.

Sometimes words change meanings, this is true. This is not one of those times. There are certainly people trying to associate feminism with misandry (like you! And misandrists!) but feminism still means, to nearly everyone, equal rights for women.

Well personally I fucking hated her before this whole kickstarter thing even started up I hate feminists like her that only look at stuff a face value and then disregard EVERYTHING as misogynist..........

That being said I still I can't really give less of a shit what she is doing especially because I want to watch the inevitable deconstruction videos that completely annihilate her poorly constructed arguments.

I am not interested in any way on the "seriousness" or "artistic value" of videogames, but when political correctness starts crippling our games we can kiss goodbye any recognition we might have had.

I would argue that games are already crippled when it comes to recognition as a legitimate art form. Not because many games lack "political correctness" but because of WHY they lack it. Games don't have ridiculous bouncing boobs and skimpy outfits because they are trying to convey anything meaningful, they are in the games because they pander to the masses that buy those games. It's a decision based off of what these companies think will profit. What they are making is JUST A PRODUCT and therefore, aren't art.

And as long as games are associated with these images, they will not be taken seriously.

Law & Order doesn't lose its credibility just because Jersey Shore exists. Law & Order loses its credibility when it starts to become like Jersey Shore.

Holy shit, this is the first video of yours I've seen where I agreed with everything you said.

When this whole Sarkeesian thing started and I heard about the threats, I thought, "Wait a minute, that's what she wanted all along. Now she's going to get a fuck-ton of publicity. Clever girl." And then I stopped paying attention. Because that's all I could do at that point.

Face it, unless someone rules the comments/forums/whatever with an iron fist, every troll on the internet can, and will, annoy the fuck out of anyone and everyone they can. To think otherwise is just... naive.

The same applies to this whole thing. Most of them probably couldn't care less about her in any way, shape, or form. They just do it "for the lulz."

This is the internet. Anyone, ANYONE, be they male, female, fat, thin, straight, gay, Jew, Christian, human or animal who has a public face here WILL be attacked on a personal level at some point or another. This isn't a case of people in general wanting to make her go away and it backfiring, this is a case of the facts of life of the internet being what they are, and her turning that to her massive advantage.

It is totally pointless to try to argue against hate speech on the internet. The people who spew it are too dumb to care, and there are SO MANY of them that a large enough number won't here you argue anyway.

I remember her now, from on of Bob's Big Picture videos. I brought her and the hate-filled bile surrounding this "debate" in a speech I gave in Toastmasters a few months back, about the Internet's impact on Society. So I accidentally did my part in keeping her in the popular conciousness with that. When I talked about her, I said her views should not be criticized because she's a woman, but because her logic is faulty and her research is suspect. And by the sounds of it in this thread, thanks to you wonderful smart and sexy people on The Escapist, that's the debate worth having.

Lunar Templar:so ... what are these games she picked that are actually proving she donno what she taking about?

She bought a couple o' hundred games at random (seems random to me, because she pretty much bought out an entire store) and appearantly is going to play through them all to find out which ones are portraying women in a bad light. Ow, and she also asks her Kickstarter backers for information on which games actually do portray women in a bad light.

So yeah, seems like she has REALLY prepared for this video, it's not at all as if she is stabbing wildly in the dark. /sarcasm

Anyway, I agree with Jim and will continue to do what I've always done, ignore her and make no "I R ENRAGED" threads about this matter on any forum.

Sotanaht:It is totally pointless to try to argue against hate speech on the internet. The people who spew it are too dumb to care, and there are SO MANY of them that a large enough number won't here you argue anyway.

However, most are smart enough to care, but do so for whatever reasons. They resort to over-the-top sexism/racism/etc. because it does attract to most attention.

In short, this whole thing was never about sexism at all, but instead the most epic trolling in recent internet history.

the only part of this video i disagree with, is the fact that he used a picture of a black hole or something, to link up with the word "nothing," instead of using the obvious choice of The Nothing, from The Neverending Story

That gets to the bigger problem with this issue from both Jim and Anita. The whole term of "gaming community" is just a stupid over generalization that is basically a core aspect to armchair journalism because said people don't actually have anyone specific that actually represents their hobby and would actually defend it with an actual intellectual conversation.

Suffice to say that Anita honestly takes 4chan seriously as being representative of everyone who plays video games. That is her starting point that demonstrates how flawed her thought process is because she doesn't have anyone specific like the ECA or PMS gaming or other video game clans or guilds to demonize.

It is honestly lazy for any journalist or researcher to espouse one's personal beliefs without actually getting into the specific of those that seem to be the problem that said journalist or reporter is crying wolf about. Cause if we really are honest all it is when you make generalities like Anita and Jim is that you are creating this imaginary punching bag that consists of people who really don't represent any sort of actual gaming community. An actual gaming community is something that is built and created and that isn't afraid to say of their connections.

Do we honestly think that Anita or Jim would really say for example say that the ECA or PMS gaming has any actual problems on the level that Anita would like to believe? Somehow I doubt that.

I do agree with you for the most part. We aren't one mass hivemind that agrees with each other on everything or even takes a side. Just look at Mass Effect 3 - there are at least four differing sides to that fiasco, and that's not counting the people that feel indifferent to the whole thing. This also is a fairly insignificant controversy that barely phases gamers compared to the likes of SOPA and the whole stockholder thing I mentioned earlier, so why are people putting most of their energy into this of all things?

I have to say though that I still have no idea what Anita's original argument was. All I can find when I look for it is pointless namecalling and childish insults without actually addressing any sort of argument (they must be taking ques from Romney and Obama :P). I still don't know what Tropes vs Women actually is, let alone have a solid opinion on it besides "Both sides need to take a few courses in Logical Philosophy / Debate".

I am not interested in any way on the "seriousness" or "artistic value" of videogames, but when political correctness starts crippling our games we can kiss goodbye any recognition we might have had.

I would argue that games are already crippled when it comes to recognition as a legitimate art form. Not because many games lack "political correctness" but because of WHY they lack it. Games don't have ridiculous bouncing boobs and skimpy outfits because they are trying to convey anything meaningful, they are in the games because they pander to the masses that buy those games. It's a decision based off of what these companies think will profit. What they are making is JUST A PRODUCT and therefore, aren't art.

And as long as games are associated with these images, they will not be taken seriously.

Law & Order doesn't lose its credibility just because Jersey Shore exists. Law & Order loses its credibility when it starts to become like Jersey Shore.

I see where you are going with that. But I would argue that the mediums aren't viewed the same to the "outside" world.

Television has had more time to mature and gain understanding. One show is not equal to another. Games, I feel, are still lumped together as "a toy" by those who criticize and regulate. Kinda like how all animated titles are assumed to be for kids.

Games are spreading and are under more scrutiny because of this. Let's protect it's growth by not being a bunch of raging/fearful/insecure turds.

First off feeling isn't the same as what is actually happening or the amount of effort companies in the video game industry go through just to get their game green lighted for development.

But while you and everyone else needs to vent once in a while you have to realize that this isn't a problem that can really be fixed because the end result comes down to you either let the person have free will in their private lives or you take control of their private lives of what they can and cannot do. There is no way you can legislate some law to make what you feel to be a problem illegal and if anything I would question what you feel is some major problem is just feels bigger because that's the trend, feelings.

If people who played video games really had this problem then where is the equivalent of the KKK, Nazi, and other hateful groups actually having some public guild, clan, or organization and what those groups promote somehow control what developers create or how other individuals should act while playing video games on or off line? I explore some of the darkest places of the internet and I can tell you when it comes to video game clans I'm sure you can find those hateful groups but the power and influence they actually really have or their actual size is extremely small especially when you compare it to organizations that put their reputation on the line everyday. You have groups like PMS clan, the ECA, the EMA, Team Liquid, and many more that have a lot more power and influence on video game policy to protect your right to play video games to equal representation.

You have to stop putting your feelings first and actually examine the real situation of who is really out there and what are they doing. Because at the end of the day this problem that you are simply feeling is doing the same thing what you are doing now. You are venting your feelings in your private life and decide to do it this way instead of playing a match of lol and being frustrated or decide to be an asshole after a shitty day at work and troll.

Also, yes, making groups does solve the problem because you expand your group and the people you talk to. People get to know who you are and how you roll and that includes the treatment of other people regardless of their gender. You meet people new everyday and the best way to change people's mind is just one person at a time.

Also I talk to A LOT of riot employees tribunal is not as cracked up as you would think it is. If anything they have created their own problems by exactly what this whole situation is about, trying to enforce a standard on people that isn't of their own volition. In other words Riot would of been better off just leaving order to be brought from chaos. Because either way the impact of tribunal has only done more harm than good even though most people don't need another companies policy being forced upon them as a dogma. Tribunal is just about punishment and has the same flaws as our justice system when it comes to the prison system because it isn't about rehabilitation but only punishment.

Maybe I didn't get what you were originally saying, but it sounded like you were advocating not talking about it in large groups, because people will disagree. And I said "I feel" because I didn't want to go hunt down statistics on what threads on what websites existed. I visit this website and Reddit a lot, and from the few threads I've read, there's a whole lot of "We're tired of talking, go away!" and not a lot of actual talking. I probably could have picked a better way to express that I wasn't gathering a huge sample size, but was more going with what I've seen in the few places I've looked.

In reference to your first two paragraphs: I'm sorry, I must have written a really bad post. I was advocating talking about the Tropes vs. Women once the videos come out, despite how bad it would make our community look after all the hate. I've never wanted to make anything illegal, just talk about the problems instead of communally burying our heads in the sand. I honestly think the extreme points on either end of the spectrum ("Everything is sexist!" vs. "You people are stupid and have no sense of humor!") need to be looked at. Honestly, if you could tell me how I advocated making something illegal based on feelings alone, I'd love to hear it so I can avoid that communication mistake in the future.

As far as the actual success rates of the Tribunal: I was just using it as a metaphor. It probably wasn't the best one available, but I thought I'd go with what you had started, so we'd both be on the same page.

Sotanaht:It is totally pointless to try to argue against hate speech on the internet. The people who spew it are too dumb to care, and there are SO MANY of them that a large enough number won't here you argue anyway.

However, most are smart enough to care, but do so for whatever reasons. They resort to over-the-top sexism/racism/etc. because it does attract to most attention.

In short, this whole thing was never about sexism at all, but instead the most epic trolling in recent internet history.

It doesn't take much intelligence to realize that attracting attention would lead to exactly this. So apply Hanlon's razor. Either attribute it to pure stupidity, or else assume malice in saying that the people responsible for their attacks were actually on her side. Either way trying to make these people stop is pointless.

So Bob, where's the line between immature criticism (amazon bombing) and what you're talking about? Yeah I know death threats and rape threats cross the line as do slurs but after that it's a bit of a gray area.

Also nitpicking but we wouldn't have a chance to debate Anita because she is not interested in a debate.

I think everyone should just get over it. Look, there are feminist interpretations of everything. Feminist interpretations of history, economics, politics, film, art, theater, comics, and now video games are joining in. Big deal, this was an inevitability. There are interpretations from every school of thought. Marxist interpretations, Deconstructionist interpretations, Historicist interpretations, Existentialist interpretations, and so on and so forth.

Someone would have made a Marxist interpretation of gaming long ago, if not for the fact that a Maxist interpretation of Tetris would have been the most hilarious thing of all time.

So, now Ms. Sarkeesian is one of the first to use feminist theory to examine games. It is not the end of the world, and certainly no reason to go off on her or anyone else like people have been.