At risk of being called a conspiracy theorist, at first glance this story seems awfully similar to the census worker who was "lynched". The details are all too pat for the narrative that this was some anti-government kook.

jfiling wrote:At risk of being called a conspiracy theorist, at first glance this story seems awfully similar to the census worker who was "lynched". The details are all too pat for the narrative that this was some anti-government kook.

I don't know about that. Dude was a teabagger to the extreme, and had the ultimate victim mentality. He didn't like paying taxes, so he didn't, and because the government hit him with massive penalties and fines he's the "victim". Please. The website that he posted his rant on, before it was pulled down at request of the FBI, was registered in his name. If you looked at the source code you could see that he edited it about 20 times in the past couple of days. Plus, he set his own house on fire before he took off in the plane.

Also it's my understanding that the building that was hit houses only some of the IRS employees in Austin - specifically, it's the place that you go to try to work out your tax debts in person. Clearly someone there set him off, probably by requiring that he actually, you know, pay his taxes.

Oh no, I'm sure he did this on purpose. Not sure why he burned down his house, although that lends support to the fact that he's just batshit insane with a grudge against the IRS for some arcane tax rule that has worked against him. Nothing to with the Tea Party protests from what I can see (and I despise the word "teabagger" in the context in which you used it).

Guy hated George W. Bush and railed against the Catholic Church does that make him a flaming liberal or progressive? Why the tea bag label right away... No point scoring needed with this guy, he was flaming lunatic that did not represent, and should not be assigned to either side.

Oh, he hates big business too, along with unions... The guy hated EVERYTHING!

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

I used "teabagger" only in regards to his insane hatred of the IRS and all things related to paying taxes, but you guys are right - not entirely accurate. Not going to edit it out at this point, though. Also I don't really regard the "Tea Party Protesters" or whatever they are allegedly called as republican or democrat. They are so far outside of any of that. Believe me, it wasn't about "scoring points".

I wonder if the IRS was going to take his house, and that's why he burned it down? The details will be interesting, that's for sure.

I do find it interesting that our nation's newest Senator assigned Joe Stack to "one of the frustrated people" who voted for him. He needs to hire some PR staff ASAP.

Last edited by exiledbuckeye on Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

There's also a few other ridiculous things that have come out of this. First, the Facebook "fan" pages and other similar nonsense sprouting up praising this guy's actions. Second, the freaking media around here proclaiming this the "Attack on Austin" (sound familiar?). Give me a break, this was an attack by one guy on one building. Yes, it sucks, yes I'm sure people were pretty terrified in the building (and their loved ones) for quite some time, but it is not the same as attacking an entire city or country (9/11).

And this brings up an interesting discussion that some of my friends and I had yesterday. Is this terrorism? By the literal definition of terrorism, I think yes. However, it seems that the media and others don't want it classified that way because the guy was not Arab or Muslim.

because he wasn't some extremest or have some sort of larger plan or didn't really want to inflict mass terror. he was just some pissed off redneck who lost about everything, knew how to fly a plane, and just said "fuck it." at least to my understanding thats what happened...

"i've been gettin G-ed up since i came out the hospital as a baby. i didn't wear pampers, i wore some slacks and some gators on the way home.""in order for us to grow u gotta know, in order to love the brotherman, u gotta know the otherman. because one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish. knick knack paddy wack, give the dog a bone." - Delonte West

municipalmutt wrote:Burning your house down and flying a plane into a federal building seems pretty extreme to me. His goal was to scare the shit out of the IRS. Isn't that the definition of terror?

Crazy Alabama professor was just as much of a terrorist as this guy. I think the definition of "terrorist" has been stretched so far that it's meaningless at this point. 9/11 = terror. McVeigh = criminal, with a small side of terror. Austin aviator = crazy nutcase.

municipalmutt wrote:Burning your house down and flying a plane into a federal building seems pretty extreme to me. His goal was to scare the shit out of the IRS. Isn't that the definition of terror?

Crazy Alabama professor was just as much of a terrorist as this guy. I think the definition of "terrorist" has been stretched so far that it's meaningless at this point. 9/11 = terror. McVeigh = criminal, with a small side of terror. Austin aviator = crazy nutcase.

I know we're splitting semantic hairs here and I agree with your premise. The real joke is the war on terror. How can you declare war on an emotion or strategy? They should have declared war on religious wack jobs of middle eastern decent. I guess that's not PC enough.

municipalmutt wrote:Burning your house down and flying a plane into a federal building seems pretty extreme to me. His goal was to scare the shit out of the IRS. Isn't that the definition of terror?

Crazy Alabama professor was just as much of a terrorist as this guy. I think the definition of "terrorist" has been stretched so far that it's meaningless at this point. 9/11 = terror. McVeigh = criminal, with a small side of terror. Austin aviator = crazy nutcase.

I know we're splitting semantic hairs here and I agree with your premise. The real joke is the war on terror. How can you declare war on an emotion or strategy? They should have declared war on religious wack jobs of middle eastern decent. I guess that's not PC enough.

I might get semantic a little bit on that last post, but really you're right on.

I almost feel like I can finally say that the whole concept of a "war to protect our freedoms" is proven, by the way this country is fighting the war, to be the biggest lie our government has told us in my lifetime. After all, the only way to protect our freedoms is to slowly give them up, one by one.

FUDU wrote:The only way to scare the shit out of the IRS would be for most of us to refuse to pay our federal income tax.

Nobody scares the shit out of the IRS. Nobody...

There is only "Pay up sucker"

The IRS can however ruin and destroy anyone it desires at any time if it suits their pleasure

One way to clean up DC, in fact, would be to turn the IRS loose on congressmen and senators prior to their getting a name plate for their desks

The IRS itself is a terrorist organization, as well as the ATF, which should be a convenience store

I'd be interested to know if the guy was a good enuff pilot that he took out the very person who he had to deal with

That's kind of my point, nothing changes if nothing changes. If you don't pay your fed. income tax you're in deep shit. However if you, me and 95 million others don't there is virtually nothing the IRS can do about it.

Seriously, what would the IRS, or our federal government do to all of us?

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

"The IRS" are just a bunch of humps going to work so they can put food on the table. The people who write the tax laws are in D.C. The IRS isn't the problem; they're just regular people doing their jobs. They're applying the rules within the framework that someone way above their pay grade gives them. I have friends who work in that building. One of them is also a 10-year Army vet who served in Iraq and then joined the National Guard.

This is like blowing up a Blockbuster because they had the audacity to charge you a late fee.

And, in the ultimate fuckup, this guy hit the only floor in the building that was essentially empty. He planned everything else out so meticulously (like taking seats out of the plane and adding fuel drums), you think he would've done a bit more recon. Thank god he didn't.

exiledbuckeye wrote:"The IRS" are just a bunch of humps going to work so they can put food on the table. The people who write the tax laws are in D.C. The IRS isn't the problem; they're just regular people doing their jobs. They're applying the rules within the framework that someone way above their pay grade gives them. I have friends who work in that building. One of them is also a 10-year Army vet who served in Iraq and then joined the National Guard.

This is like blowing up a Blockbuster because they had the audacity to charge you a late fee.

And, in the ultimate fuckup, this guy hit the only floor in the building that was essentially empty. He planned everything else out so meticulously (like taking seats out of the plane and adding fuel drums), you think he would've done a bit more recon. Thank god he didn't.

Thank you exiled. The two of us agreeing on something doesn't happen often but this is an obvious common sense take. Some in this thread do not seem to have a problem calling for the death of IRS agents. I had the opportunity to join their ranks at one point but decided to go private sector, would I have an acceptable loss if I hadn't? I am the same person either way...

Again just humps enforcing a code our elected officials have passed through legislation.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

would LOVE to get bw's take on this one. mitch can you work something out to bring him back for a special guest post or something....

"i've been gettin G-ed up since i came out the hospital as a baby. i didn't wear pampers, i wore some slacks and some gators on the way home.""in order for us to grow u gotta know, in order to love the brotherman, u gotta know the otherman. because one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish. knick knack paddy wack, give the dog a bone." - Delonte West

exiledbuckeye wrote:"The IRS" are just a bunch of humps going to work so they can put food on the table. The people who write the tax laws are in D.C. The IRS isn't the problem; they're just regular people doing their jobs. They're applying the rules within the framework that someone way above their pay grade gives them. I have friends who work in that building. One of them is also a 10-year Army vet who served in Iraq and then joined the National Guard.

This is like blowing up a Blockbuster because they had the audacity to charge you a late fee.

And, in the ultimate fuckup, this guy hit the only floor in the building that was essentially empty. He planned everything else out so meticulously (like taking seats out of the plane and adding fuel drums), you think he would've done a bit more recon. Thank god he didn't.

Thank you exiled. The two of us agreeing on something doesn't happen often but this is an obvious common sense take. Some in this thread do not seem to have a problem calling for the death of IRS agents. I had the opportunity to join their ranks at one point but decided to go private sector, would I have an acceptable loss if I hadn't? I am the same person either way...

Again just humps enforcing a code our elected officials have passed through legislation.

Calling for the deaths of IRS agents is extreme, but if these humps are concerned about what their job entails, or worried if what they do pisses people off, they can do as Dave Barry once said...

Barry: Every now and then, when I write my annual tax column, some ex-IRS agent will complain, "There you go IRS bashing again." They're always saying that they're just doing their job. Someone I know once said, "You could get another job."

FUDU wrote:The only way to scare the shit out of the IRS would be for most of us to refuse to pay our federal income tax.

Nobody scares the shit out of the IRS. Nobody...

There is only "Pay up sucker"

The IRS can however ruin and destroy anyone it desires at any time if it suits their pleasure

One way to clean up DC, in fact, would be to turn the IRS loose on congressmen and senators prior to their getting a name plate for their desks

The IRS itself is a terrorist organization, as well as the ATF, which should be a convenience store

I'd be interested to know if the guy was a good enuff pilot that he took out the very person who he had to deal with

That's kind of my point, nothing changes if nothing changes. If you don't pay your fed. income tax you're in deep shit. However if you, me and 95 million others don't there is virtually nothing the IRS can do about it.

Seriously, what would the IRS, or our federal government do to all of us?

I think the below statement, which is pretty recognizable, sheds some light on that. You just gotta be willing to go all the way with it.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

BTW, the man who was killed in this act was a 68-year old father of 6. Someone's grandfather. A 20 year Army vet who served two tours in Vietnam. This is not the type of person who's death we should be calling for or applauding.

jfiling, I have a very strong opinion on the federal income tax. Done lots of reading on the subject. IMO it is a prime example of a counter argument to the POV that "one person can make a difference". I don't believe in federal income tax, & the validity of it, yet it is completely asinine of me to stick to my guns 100% and go about refusing to pay it. The risk/reward factor is completely out of balance.

One person cannot make a difference on this, it would take a massive effort of the people to oppose it.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:jfiling, I have a very strong opinion on the federal income tax. Done lots of reading on the subject. IMO it is a prime example of a counter argument to the POV that "one person can make a difference". I don't believe in federal income tax, & the validity of it, yet it is completely asinine of me to stick to my guns 100% and go about refusing to pay it. The risk/reward factor is completely out of balance.

One person cannot make a difference on this, it would take a massive effort of the people to oppose it.

Of course opposing it on your own is hopeless. The state we live in today has been so gradually created that nobody can point to one thing that will get the masses to take arms against the system. The reason I posted the start of the Declaration of Independence is twofold: to show that at one time in history a ruler had oppressed the people so far that a successful rebellion was possible, and to show that when such events lead to the people feeling oppressed, they have a moral obligation to see if such a rebellion will work. Unfortunately, the United States we live in treats anyone who believes in any sort of radical change to the two-party duopoly corporatist/militarist system as a racist, "tea-bagger", "anti-government loon", or terrorist.

We have surrendered all of our rights. All we can do is hope that the government becomes more enlightened and returns a few of them back to us.

jfiling totally accept the fact working for the IRS is not going to get love from alot of people. Doesn't change the fact that they are still Americans doing a job that has to be done.

On the other point the Founding Fathers tried to work with the English for over a decade "thru the system" before the Declaration. Even then many still thought they could work with the English. Can't justify flying a plane into innocent people... No matter what Herm thinks.

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."

It's not a terrorist attack. It was a suicidal revenge act. Terrorism is supposed to make a whole population scared. This was just one bat shit crazy guy. He has no followers or organization backing him.

Can't justify flying a plane into innocent people... No matter what Herm thinks.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:It's not a terrorist attack. It was a suicidal revenge act. Terrorism is supposed to make a whole population scared. This was just one bat shit crazy guy. He has no followers or organization backing him.

Can't justify flying a plane into innocent people... No matter what Herm thinks.

+100

If he was serious (I doubt he was) it was a epic king hell shit take.

CDT terrorism isn't inherently connected to size or mass. Terrorism doesn't require a following either. I could terrorize you with a single act of some sort and it would still be considered terrorism. You're just looking at terrorism through the eyes of how the media in world you're living in right now presents it. We usually only hear about terrorizing when it relates to acts that effect a population anymore.

Outside of OK I am not too sure there were too many people that were scared after the bombing of the federal building or the school shooting.

Just sayin.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

exiledbuckeye wrote:BTW, the man who was killed in this act was a 68-year old father of 6. Someone's grandfather. A 20 year Army vet who served two tours in Vietnam. This is not the type of person who's death we should be calling for or applauding.

Nobody is calling for anything or applauding anything. But I'm not going to wring my hands or pretend to be outraged because some guy employed by the biggest thief in the world got taken out. Nor do I have a problem with people taking a shot at the state from time to time.

exiledbuckeye wrote:BTW, the man who was killed in this act was a 68-year old father of 6. Someone's grandfather. A 20 year Army vet who served two tours in Vietnam. This is not the type of person who's death we should be calling for or applauding.

Nobody is calling for anything or applauding anything. But I'm not going to wring my hands or pretend to be outraged because some guy employed by the biggest thief in the world got taken out. Nor do I have a problem with people taking a shot at the state from time to time.

As Peek might say... pass the beer nuts.

The guy still had a relatively decent plane to climb into and fly and could apparently afford the fuel to fill it. I'd say he was ahead of the game.

The goal of real terrorist (not media made ones, like this guy) is to strike fear into a large group of people, hence the name "terrorist". This was one crazy guy. Plus he's dead. there's nothing more to be afraid of from that loon. It's not like there's an Al Qaeda faction of IRS haters waiting to fly planes into buildings. He doesn't have a horde of followers out there ready to pick up where he left off. That means he's done "terrorizing'.

I could terrorize you with a single act of some sort and it would still be considered terrorism.

No it wouldn't. By your definition one guy shooting another is "terrorism". Which is wrong. Are armed robberies terrorism because they make people scared? What about the North Hollywood Shootout?

Terrorism doesn't require a following either.

No, you're right Ted Kczynski had no following. 99% of the time it does though.

You're just looking at terrorism through the eyes of how the media in world you're living in right now presents it.

Wut?..... That doesn't make sense.

We usually only hear about terrorizing when it relates to acts that effect a population anymore.

Because that's the purpose of terrorism.

Outside of OK I am not too sure there were too many people that were scared after the bombing of the federal building or the school shooting.

Sooooo what's your point? Alot of people weren't scared after 9/11 either. OKC Bombing was terrorism. McVeigh and Nichols' goal was to strike fear into the Federal Goverment by blowing up one of their buildings. It worked. Aside from OKC residents they scared the shit outta the Feds, they closed other buildings in the wake of that attack for fear of other bombings.

I don't know what you mean by "the school shooting". Columbine and other school shootings are rampage killings, not terrorism.

Part of what makes terrorist feared is their ability to carry out more attacks. The perpetuation of fear.

exiledbuckeye wrote:BTW, the man who was killed in this act was a 68-year old father of 6. Someone's grandfather. A 20 year Army vet who served two tours in Vietnam. This is not the type of person who's death we should be calling for or applauding.

Nobody is calling for anything or applauding anything. But I'm not going to wring my hands or pretend to be outraged because some guy employed by the biggest thief in the world got taken out. Nor do I have a problem with people taking a shot at the state from time to time.

As Peek might say... pass the beer nuts.

What a ridiculous statement.

You won't "call for or applaud anything" but you will say you have "no problem with people taking a shot at the state from time to time." So you just passively endorse it?

Why don't you just say what you really think should happen to the "Biggest thief in the world"?

Damn CDT I'd hate to imagine your opinion of me if I told you my long held opinion: that if I woke up tomorrow and half of our politicians were erased from the planet I wouldn't lose a second's sleep over it.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

FUDU wrote:Damn CDT I'd hate to imagine your opinion of me if I told you my long held opinion: that if I woke up tomorrow and half of our politicians were erased from the planet I wouldn't lose a second's sleep over it.

My opinion of Herm hasn't changed. I just think he isn't saying what he really thinks. I thought his first comment was a morbid tounge in cheek joke.

You think i'd bat an eye if all the politicians in DC got abducted by Aliens tomorrow?

The government does things like provide for a military, create a publc highway system, keep law and order..ect ect.

We all know how messed up politicians are from both sides but really, no fed taxes? Where would the govt get the money to function?Why don't we just disolve the fed government and go back to fuedalism?

I just don't get the bitching. Pay your taxes. Move on with your life.

mistero wrote:The government does things like provide for a military, create a publc highway system, keep law and order..ect ect.

We all know how messed up politicians are from both sides but really, no fed taxes? Where would the govt get the money to function?Why don't we just disolve the fed government and go back to fuedalism?

I just don't get the bitching. Pay your taxes. Move on with your life.

Sorry mistero I just don't get this post one bit, you say it as if we do not pay enough taxes. We are completely over taxed, when you consider the value of what we get for a tax dollar it is not arguable.

Roads & schools for starters, and you want to use the military for an example of tax dollars at work, puhlease. The military doesn't protect the U.S. tax payers rights or interests, it serves the interests of our government and whom ever is making the decisions that day. How many billions are spent each month in Iraq, and there is not one damn thing about our military being entrenched in Iraq that is benefiting ANY U.S citizens. Our rights and freedoms are not being fought for in Iraq, plain and simple. Hell you can argue our presence in Iraq doesn't even benefit Iraqi's.

Then to add insult to injury the people that do it right and pay their bills and mortgage have to pay for those who do it wrong? Sorry but stick your over generalized extreme why don't we just disolve the fed government and go back to fuedalism? crap up your ass.

If you're so into paying taxes why don't you offer up a little bit more, over pay your taxes just for good measure, I'm sure our roads, schools and military will be much better off b/c of it.

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect."I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

Sorry mistero I just don't get this post one bit, you say it as if we do not pay enough taxes. We are completely over taxed, when you consider the value of what we get for a tax dollar it is not arguable.

This.

End of story.

BTW....remind me. Where are all the jobs we paid 787 billion for?

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus

FUDU wrote: How many billions are spent each month in Iraq, and there is not one damn thing about our military being entrenched in Iraq that is benefiting ANY U.S citizens. Our rights and freedoms are not being fought for in Iraq, plain and simple. Hell you can argue our presence in Iraq doesn't even benefit Iraqi's.

Shit....... I've been making that argument for years.

Now it's become fashionable to bitch about waste in Iraq, 5 years ago it was "UnAmerican".

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:You're one whacky pothead, Herm. Maybe it's the stuff you're getting, it's like the polar opposite of the shit the Vietnamese gave our guys in 'Nam to make all passive and shit. (Allegedly)

That's one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever read and I'm serious as a heart attack

Hope is a moment now long pastThe Shadow of Death is the one I castKoo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus