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If only I had known that that liberals are driven by "wishful thinking" and and "the notion that we can make life on Earth perfect" and "[maybe] we can all have a Star Trek like existence". Gosh, even though I've never met a single liberal who espouses such a view, clearly you, Pudge, the Champion of Truth and Light, have revealed to me the Way. Never again shall I be so shallow as to believe that differences in core values might lead peopl

Agreed that you didn't say "all liberals". My apologies. However, you presented the viewpoint of what describe as "many liberals" and you quite failed to make it clear that this is a minority viewpoint. Instead, you presented a viewpoint that is clearly your own, you mocked it ("Star Trek like existence"?), and used a minority opinion -- one I don't hear -- as a contrast to conservative opinion. You might think it's fair to contrast a minority opinion with what you clearly view as the rational conservat

Perhaps a better wording would have been "a significant number of liberals" instead of "many liberals."

Instead, you presented a viewpoint that is clearly your own, you mocked it ("Star Trek like existence"?)

Have you listened to Ask Pudge episode 1? Because one of the questions was this [slashdot.org]. So in the full context of Ask Pudge, the whole "Star Trek post economy, everyone's needs could be filled if we'd just abandon capitalism/conservatism/greed" has been referenced before and is being referenced again.

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

Well, I certainly wouldn't say that many conservatives are motivated by fear. In fact, I don't think the neo-cons who've hijacked (in my opinion) the conservative party are motivated by fear. (Like many, I feel they find fear is a great tool for public manipulation). So no, I don't think the comparison is unfair for this reason.

And for the record, my general opinion of what I view as "true" conservatives tends to be people who think that smaller government works better and the government should be staying the hell out of people's lives unless absolutely necessary. That's a viewpoint I have a lot of sympathy for. It's not a viewpoint that the current administration seems to share.

And for the record, my general opinion of what I view as "true" conservatives tends to be people who think that smaller government works better and the government should be staying the hell out of people's lives unless absolutely necessary. That's a viewpoint I have a lot of sympathy for. It's not a viewpoint that the current administration seems to share.

You and I are in complete agreement on that. Which is why I've basically exited the Republican Party. Of course, my belief in small government event

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

To clarify previous post, you and I are in complete definition over that definition of conservatism. I don't think we're in complete agreement in both accepting that as our own personal viewpoint, because I don't think (but could be wrong) that it's your viewpoint.

Yet.;)

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

The problem I have with some conservatives is the same problem I have with some Christians. Basically, what they preach and what they practice aren't the same thing. This is hypocricy. Frankly, I don't mind a little hypocricy now and then so long as the practitioner is willing to admit the error of their ways and tries to be better. However, when they refuse to admit they are wrong, I have strong issues with this. Unfortunately, while these might be minority positions, they seem to have had a dispropor

And neither did he condemn the fact that the Jewish leaders enforced their religious beliefs on the community.

Oh ho. That they strain out the gnat and swallow the fly was no such criticism? He condemned them many times for aguing the letter of the law, and in niggling detail no less, while simultaneously disregarding the spirit. Rotten graves, beautiful on the outside…

I think I can find examples to contradict what pudge said, but I don't think the example you gave qualifies. Letter of the law/spirit of the law is orthogonal to the issue of whether or not you impose the law on anyone else. So is hypocrisy.

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

Everything you just said sounds like it could've come straight out of my mouth. My wife and I talk about this all the time. We believe God specifically prohibits Christians from governing others. (And the maximum penalty church government can impose is putting people out of the church.) I use the phrase "right to sin" a lot, with the same logic you do: God gives us the right to sin. God believes in the right to sin.

Frankly, I don't mind a little hypocricy now and then so long as the practitioner is

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

I will never vote for a politician again. All politicians assert their right to govern over people regardless of consent. As a Christian I can't support this, and even if I were not a Christian it would violate self-ownership.

Then do not complain. You have no right to complain if you are not participating in the process to improve it, to protect your own rights. The cost of having liberty is eternal vigilance to defend that liberty, and if you don't do that, you get what you deserve: slavery.

Incidentally, I'm still casting ballots. I'm just not voting for any politicians. I'm voting against referendum measures, and voting "none of the above," "other," or writein against every single candidate running. I'd like for a majority of people to discover they have no right to rule others, either, and join me. Elections are never won by true majorities since that many people rarely vote. I think every registered voter who doesn't show up ought to count as a "no" or "none of the above" vote, to make

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

I'd like for a majority of people to discover they have no right to rule others, either, and join me.

First you'd have to throw out the Constitution. Good luck with that.

Elections are never won by true majorities since that many people rarely vote. I think every registered voter who doesn't show up ought to count as a "no" or "none of the above" vote, to make it obvious.

Except that's not logical. Our system has never been based on the notion that a majority of citizens should support something, only that a

Sure I am. I'm teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is a far more effective way to combat every problem people want to solve with government. And as I understand that Gospel, abandoning any claims we have of the right to govern each other is essential.

From a secular point of view, persuading people to relinquish this claim is also the way to eventual success. You cannot achieve a society that doesn't believe it has a right to vote on each other's affairs by voting. I saw a comment recently from

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

Every good conservative agrees that the Constitution doesn't grant rights, right?

You're missing my point: the Constitution gives explicit authority to the government, through the people, to "rule others."

It's amendable, right?

Yes. In the way you want? No. It's antithetical to the Constitution, and logically nonsensical, since you'd never possibly get a majority of Americans to actually agree to it. Worse, in order to ever find out whether you had a majority, you would need to know everyone who is and is

I'm doing something: I'm working to persuade people to accept ideas. That's the same kind of work the authors of The Federalist did.

Oh come on, it's not remotely the same thing. Even if all they did was write The Federalist, they were writing things, to thousands of people, that were directly influencing the ratification of the Constitution.

Of course, they did far more than just write The Federalist. They were all intimately involved in actually shaping the government, as you well know. Madison, the prim

What other courses of action to preserve liberty are you recommending, exactly, besides voting? What do you have in mind?

Getting involved in the political system to foster change, for one thing. As you know from my Slashdot journal, I get involved and actually have a voice in the party, which affects what issues and candidates are supported by the party, and how and to what degree they are supported. By being involved, I meet people in positions of authority, and when an issue comes up, I can bend their e

By being involved, I meet people in positions of authority, and when an issue comes up, I can bend their ear (not that the average Joe can't do that too, but it's easier for me).

But exercising that authority is against my morality, as is influencing someone else who possesses that authority to use it. The only thing I could morally convince them to do is to not use their authority.

--J. David works really hard, has a passion for writing good software, and knows many of the world's best Perl programmers

But exercising that authority is against my morality, as is influencing someone else who possesses that authority to use it.

It's against your morality to attempt to convince the Attorney General that he should sue the state teacher's union for stealing non-union teachers' fees to use for political purposes? I don't see how.

The only thing I could morally convince them to do is to not use their authority.

Even if that were true (which I don't think it is), then... so what? Do that then. As you may have see

Well, I certainly wouldn't say that many conservatives are motivated by fear. In fact, I don't think the neo-cons who've hijacked (in my opinion) the conservative party are motivated by fear.

For what it's worth, 99 percent of the time someone says this, they are wrong. Neoconservatives are a tiny minority of the GOP, though a few of them are in positions of power. A neoconservative is a specific type of conservative, charaterized primarily by their liberalism. People like Kristol and Podhoretz, whose fat