>> IIRC, Billy and Captain Marvel only had very similar personalities. And
>> since Captain Marvel was taller, looked different, etc, I'd say
Multiform
>> is fair game.
>
>I just read a fairly recent painted graphic novel about Shazam!, and in
>that, it was quite explicit that Billy and Captain Marvel were the same
>person, but Cap just looked different and had the powers. I think you're
>right about the older comics, though...

In the older comics, Billy often referred to "Cap" (and vice versa) in the
third person, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say they were completely
separate entities.

Marvel's Captain Mar-Vell was definitely two people, Rick Jones and
Mar=Vell; only one could exist on Earth at the same time, and the other was
banished to another dimension until the earthbound one ka-chinged his
"nega-bands".

Miracleman, a sort of British clone of the original Cap, dating to the 50s,
was originally mostly identical to his American counterpart; when Alan
Moore revived him in the 80s, it was found that his mortal form, Mickey
Moran, had had a mindless but powerful clone genetically engineered by a
secret organization and stored in infraspace. A code phrase would switch
the location of the two, while transferring Mickey's mind into the
earthbound body.

Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net)
"I used to think, "Mind control satellites? No way!' But now, I can't
remember what we did without 'em."

> >> Huh ? Do you mean that with 5th edition Instant Change, it would mean that
> >> **Billy Batson** is only changing his clothing when he becomes Captain
> Marvel ?
> >> And then the definition for him achieving his heroic ID is when his
> clothing
> >> changes ?
> >
> >No. I have never felt that Instant Change was a required part of the
> >OIHID power construct. Billy Batson/Capt Marvel combines both together,
> >but this is not the only way to do it.
> >
> I'm not sure he does. We're talking about the kid who says "SHAZAM!",
> right? Seems like his transformation, while mystical, took a little time.

Yes, the 'SHAZAM' Captain Marvel. His transformation was pretty much
instant (AFAIK)

> At 03:12 PM 6/2/1999 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >SHOGGOTH
> [snip]
> > Physical Limitation:
> >10 Cannot leap
> >15 No fine manipulation
> [snip]
> >Rumors:
> >It is said that there are no more shoggoths left on the Earth.
> [snip]
> >Designer's Notes:
> >The shoggoth given here is derived from 5th Edition "Call of Cthulhu". It
> >should be considered a base-line template only, and Game Masters should
> >feel free to alter it at will in order to best achieve the image they have
> >of the Lovecraftian nightmare. Suggestions include: giving it "Cannot be
> >Stunned", Stretching, an HKA bite, some sort of HKA rupturing attack
> >("Must follow grab") and so on.
>
> Isn't there a rumor or something that they have some sort of weakness to
> piccolo music? Or did the CoC designers pass over that fact? (Or was it
> made up by someone else not connected with either Lovecraft or Chaosium?)

I've never heard that one. The CoC book doesn't mention it at all and I
don't remember that while reading "At the Mountains of Madness".

On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >
> > Isn't there a rumor or something that they have some sort of weakness to
> > piccolo music? Or did the CoC designers pass over that fact? (Or was it
> > made up by someone else not connected with either Lovecraft or Chaosium?)
>
> I've never heard that one. The CoC book doesn't mention it at all and I
> don't remember that while reading "At the Mountains of Madness".

Maybe you're thinking of Azathoth? IIRC, he sits at the center of the
universe gibbering and such, surrounded by weird alien pipers who play
music to keep him calm.

I like the idea of this as well. However, I think it would be important to give
some examples of how this would work and some possible cost. Just like the
limitation Limited does. Does anyone have any examples?

> > > Isn't there a rumor or something that they have some sort of weakness to
> > > piccolo music? Or did the CoC designers pass over that fact? (Or was it
> > > made up by someone else not connected with either Lovecraft or Chaosium?)
> >
> > I've never heard that one. The CoC book doesn't mention it at all and I
> > don't remember that while reading "At the Mountains of Madness".
>
> Maybe you're thinking of Azathoth? IIRC, he sits at the center of the
> universe gibbering and such, surrounded by weird alien pipers who play
> music to keep him calm.

At one point, it was discovered in the local Maryland area that a lot of
stores have Dr. Pepper knockoffs. All of these sodas are named 'Dr.'
something and, well, after a while we realized we had a super-team in the
making.

>Okay, so this is a strange question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
>
>At one point, it was discovered in the local Maryland area that a lot of
>stores have Dr. Pepper knockoffs. All of these sodas are named 'Dr.'
>something and, well, after a while we realized we had a super-team in the
>making.
>
>Here's the current cast:
>The Nefarious Dr. Zing
>The Magnificent Dr. Pepper
>The Dynamic Dr. Rocket
>The Invincible Dr. Thunder
>The Flamboyant Dr. Skipper
>
>(yes, we added the epithets).
>
>Anyway, I was wondering if anyone on this list has seen similar sodas in
>their local grocery stores, and is so, what?
>
>Oh, and yes, we will probably be turning this bunch into a fully written
>up super-team.
>
>--
>Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com - http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
>
>
> "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands,
> raise the skull-and-crossbones, and begin slitting throats."
> H.L. Mencken
>
>
>

Toronto is short on doctor pops but we do have Cash Man. He buys your old or
broken gold and jewelry. He has a really frightening spandex getup complete
with cape and big gold $ symbol on the front.

] Okay, so this is a strange question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
]
] At one point, it was discovered in the local Maryland area
] that a lot of
] stores have Dr. Pepper knockoffs. All of these sodas are named 'Dr.'
] something and, well, after a while we realized we had a
] super-team in the
] making.
]
] Here's the current cast:
] The Nefarious Dr. Zing
] The Magnificent Dr. Pepper
] The Dynamic Dr. Rocket
] The Invincible Dr. Thunder
] The Flamboyant Dr. Skipper
]
] (yes, we added the epithets).
]
] Anyway, I was wondering if anyone on this list has seen
] similar sodas in
] their local grocery stores, and is so, what?
]
] Oh, and yes, we will probably be turning this bunch into a
] fully written
] up super-team.
]
] --
] Michael Surbrook - susano@otd.com -
] http://www.otd.com/~susano/index.html
]
]
] "Every normal
] man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands,
] raise the skull-and-crossbones, and begin slitting throats."
] H.L. Mencken
]
]

To me, this hits up against the "Hero doesn't do absolutes" principle. I'm
a proponent of getting rid of Affects Desolid though, so I would say with
GM permission a character could get Desolid that's affected by very very
few things.

>Suppose I want a character who superleaps without a chance of missing?

Change Superleap to Flight with a Limitation and you have no problem. :)

>Suppose I want a character who can teleport without risking death by
>missing?

I generally do this one by giving the character a Targeting Sense "only for
determining whether an area is occupied", so that a blind teleport is not
really blind...

>I don't agree; it's a very selective alteration of an extent power in a way
>defined in the advantage, and no worse in practice than some of the odder
>use of extent powers I've seen. And frankly, I think the portability of
>Champions characters is questionable at best, and for reasons that have
>nothing to do with disagreements about Advantages.

Hm, let me rephrase. I think it makes it harder to move /players/ between
games, if the system is being changed by the frequent introduction of
custom Advantages.

The ability to add custom advantages /is/ already within the system: a GM
house rule. IMO, that promotes the proper frequency of custom advantages:
if the book had "Advantaged Power", I think they would be too common.

Wow, it's nice to be arguing in favor of the current rules for a change. :)

At 09:28 PM 6/2/1999 -0400, Michael Sprague wrote:
>> Flash costs 5 points per d6, but works for a number of Segments,
>> not Phases.
>
>Yuck!! This one I do not like!!! Mind you, I always felt that Flash was
>always too expensive when compared to it's defense, but I do not like this
>way of fixing it at all.
>
>This creates a case where having a lower Speed is an Advantage!! Say you
>get a Flash that lasts 6 segments and assume a character can "Hold" one
>Phase past the effect of the Flash. A Speed 6 character is going to lose 2
>Phases while "Flashed". A Speed 4 character will only lose 1 Phase, while a
>Speed 3 character may lose 1 or 0 Phases, depending on which segment the
>Flash took effect. A Speed 2 character would never be affected at all.
>
>If you can't hold a Phase during the Flash Effect, thus avoiding one Phase
>of being Flashed, then add a Phase to the above examples ... but if you
>don't get 6 Segments, then you better time it right, or you still won't
>affect a Speed 2 character!!

At 01:08 AM 6/3/1999 -0400, geoff heald wrote:
>At 04:40 PM 6/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 05:23 PM 6/2/1999 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote:
>>>Incidentally, I think that the one-phase costume change is way too short...
>>
>> Agreed. One minute is probably the best, if not five minutes. (That's
>>how long it took me when I was at my peak of health, such as it is.)
>
>Depends on how prepared you are. If you dress like Peter Parker or Clark
>Kent, we're talking about slipping out of penny loafers, taking off your
>shirt, pulling off your pants, and maybe pulling on a ski mask. A little
>practice and I'll bet I do it reliably in under 30 seconds.

At 09:03 AM 6/3/1999 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Okay, so this is a strange question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
>
>At one point, it was discovered in the local Maryland area that a lot of
>stores have Dr. Pepper knockoffs. All of these sodas are named 'Dr.'
>something and, well, after a while we realized we had a super-team in the
>making.
>
>Here's the current cast:
>The Nefarious Dr. Zing
>The Magnificent Dr. Pepper
>The Dynamic Dr. Rocket
>The Invincible Dr. Thunder
>The Flamboyant Dr. Skipper
>
>(yes, we added the epithets).

I utter a lot of epithets when I drink that stuff too (especially when
I'm expecting cola). ;-]

>Anyway, I was wondering if anyone on this list has seen similar sodas in
>their local grocery stores, and is so, what?

Either I'm missing something obvious, or the Hero message area on AOL is
buried and hard to find. Can somebody tell me how to get to it? I've do=
ne
searches as well as just surfing around AOL and I can't even find anythin=
g
related to role-playing games. Frustrating....

At 09:03 AM 6/3/99 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Okay, so this is a strange question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
>
>At one point, it was discovered in the local Maryland area that a lot of
>stores have Dr. Pepper knockoffs. All of these sodas are named 'Dr.'
>something and, well, after a while we realized we had a super-team in the
>making.
>
>Here's the current cast:
>The Nefarious Dr. Zing
>The Magnificent Dr. Pepper
>The Dynamic Dr. Rocket
>The Invincible Dr. Thunder
>The Flamboyant Dr. Skipper
>
>(yes, we added the epithets).
>
>Anyway, I was wondering if anyone on this list has seen similar sodas in
>their local grocery stores, and is so, what?
>
>Oh, and yes, we will probably be turning this bunch into a fully written
>up super-team.
>

I'm glad to see more Dr. Pepper afficionados out there; they're pretty
scarce up hear in New England.

There are actually several Web pages out there devoted to Dr. Pepper
Clones. Try:

> >At one point, it was discovered in the local Maryland area that a lot of
> >stores have Dr. Pepper knockoffs. All of these sodas are named 'Dr.'
> >something and, well, after a while we realized we had a super-team in the
> >making.
> >
> >Here's the current cast:
> >The Nefarious Dr. Zing
> >The Magnificent Dr. Pepper
> >The Dynamic Dr. Rocket
> >The Invincible Dr. Thunder
> >The Flamboyant Dr. Skipper

> I'm glad to see more Dr. Pepper afficionados out there; they're pretty
> scarce up hear in New England.

At 09:41 AM 6/3/1999 -0400, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
>Notice that there are some Dr. Pepper knockoffs without the "Dr." There are
>a few Mr.'s, for instance. And I think Southern Lightning (Wal-Mart's
>clone) would make a fine superhero name.

> Some of you may ask, "But wait! How do you know how many BODY clothes
>have?" The IC Transform uses the 5th Ed.'s Standard Effect Rule (where you
>specify a roughly average outcome for every use of the Power to gain
>predictability). That does enough effect to Transform any suit of clothes
>(let's face it, how many BODY could clothes have, anyway?).

<< > Some of you may ask, "But wait! How do you know how many BODY clothes
>have?" The IC Transform uses the 5th Ed.'s Standard Effect Rule (where you
>specify a roughly average outcome for every use of the Power to gain
>predictability). That does enough effect to Transform any suit of clothes
>(let's face it, how many BODY could clothes have, anyway?).

Does the book suggest BODY values for clothing? >>

No, not explicity. But I think you can safely assume that any
clothing would be affected by the IC Transform. This falls under the "c'mon,
use some common sense, don't fuss about precise applications of rules effects
all the time" sort of thing I was talking about -- when the system reaches
the point for having to provide precise BODY values for clothes, I think we
need to Step Away From the Dice for a while. ;) If you really needed to know
for some crucial plot point, I'm sure you could make a snap judgment on
clothing BODY on the fly; I can't imagine that 99.999999% of clothing has
more than 1 BODY. Heck, if *I* can rip it, it probably has only .5 BODY. :)

In which case I suppose protective "street clothes" (Leather,
Heavy Silk, Heavy Denim, etc) would have as much body as the
lightest possible armor, and then regular "street clothes"
would have half that.

Mind you, in the style I tend to play, I'd probably define
it as "negligible BODY", unless genre or plot considerations
came into play. There's such a thing as overanalyzing,
even in HERO...:)

> Isn't there a rumor or something that they have some sort of
>weakness to
>piccolo music? Or did the CoC designers pass over that fact? (Or was
>it
>made up by someone else not connected with either Lovecraft or
>Chaosium?)

One of the "Grimtooth's Traps" books used that weakness -- if you
distracted the shoggoth with piccolo music, the high notes would break
the glass walls of the underwater room you were in. (I think that's how
it worked, I'm still trying to get another bookshelf set up for the rest
of my gaming books.) The writer assumed everyone knew shoggoths were
fascinated by piccolo music, but I don't really know where that got
started.

Leah

___________________________________________________________________
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Appearance:
A dark young is a huge ropy mass of tentacles that loosely resembles a
tree. It has a large semi-spherical body, four large tentacles, many
smaller tentacles, hoofed feet and several mouths that drip green goo.
They are black in color and are described as smelling like an open grave.

Ecology:
Dark young are the spawn of Shub-Niggurath, aka the "Black Goat of the
Woods with a Thousand Young". They dwell in wooded areas and will prey on
local fauna. They also meet with worshipers of their mother's, accept
sacrifices (usually animal) and attack and destroy nonbelievers and other
enemies of their cult.

Motivations:
A dark young does its best to spread the cult of its mother. It is
usually motived by sacrifices to itself or its mother.

Combat Techniques:
In combat a dark young will lash out with its long tentacles, attempting
to grab a potential victim and draw them to a dripping mouth. The dark
you will then bite down and suck the screaming victim's life energy away.
This energy will greatly weaken the target, and once all the energy is
drained (the target is STR 0) the victim will be devoured. If in very
close combat, the dark young will simply stamp, trampling it opponents
into the ground, hooting and bellowing as it does so.

Other Names: Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath, Tree of Life, Tree that Walks

Rumors: None

Designer's Notes:
This design is taken from 5th Edition Call of Cthulhu. It should be
considered a template from which the Game Master can work. Options for
this creature include switching the STR Drain for an END of BODY Drain,
adding Life Support (up to full) and increasing the Armor. Dark young
usually know spells, but CoC spells aren't quite like most Hero spells.
CoC spells are more ritualistic and are usually for summoning or
contacting the Elder Gods.

The STR drain in CoC "... cannot be restored." I figured giving it a 50
year recovery period simulated that pretty well.

At 10:55 AM 6/3/1999 EDT, Leah L Watts wrote:
>> Isn't there a rumor or something that they have some sort of
>>weakness to
>>piccolo music? Or did the CoC designers pass over that fact? (Or was
>>it
>>made up by someone else not connected with either Lovecraft or
>>Chaosium?)
>
>One of the "Grimtooth's Traps" books used that weakness -- if you
>distracted the shoggoth with piccolo music, the high notes would break
>the glass walls of the underwater room you were in. (I think that's how
>it worked, I'm still trying to get another bookshelf set up for the rest
>of my gaming books.) The writer assumed everyone knew shoggoths were
>fascinated by piccolo music, but I don't really know where that got
>started.

> >One of the "Grimtooth's Traps" books used that weakness -- if you
> >distracted the shoggoth with piccolo music, the high notes would break
> >the glass walls of the underwater room you were in. (I think that's how
> >it worked, I'm still trying to get another bookshelf set up for the rest
> >of my gaming books.) The writer assumed everyone knew shoggoths were
> >fascinated by piccolo music, but I don't really know where that got
> >started.
>
> I remember that one, and an entry in the AD&D Fiend Folio (which
> preceded that Grimtooth's Traps book, which was the first one I think) also
> made mention of this weakness. Perhaps that's where that bit originated,
> but I don't know....

The Fiend Folo doesn't have the Shoggoth. Shoggoths for AD&D showed up in
the first edition of Dieties and Demi-gods.

Appearance:
A shambler is a tall, wide creature, with a slack, loose hide and a blank
staring face. It is roughly humanoid, with large hands and long talons.
It is said to be "... not wholly ape and not wholly insect."

Ecology:
Shamblers dwell between dimensions. They can travel freely between
planes, and will wander from planet to planet (or plane to plane) as they
will. Little else is known about them.

Motivations:
It is unknown what drives a shambler. Some may be commanded by other
forces, while most seem to simply travel at random. It should e noted
that shamblers in general are hostile to those who encounter them.

Combat Techniques:
A shambler attacks with its long talons, slashing at a foe. It will also
attempt to grapple with a foe and haul them off to another plane. If hard
pressed or wounded, the shambler will also leave for the safety of
somewhere else.

Other Names: Shambler

Rumors:
Dimensional Shamblers may act as servants of the Outer Gods and Great Old
Ones.

Designer's Notes:
This creature is derived from 5th Edition Call of Cthulhu. It makes a
good template for a demonic servant (or other 'wizard's pet'). Options
for the shambler include Growth (1-2 levels) a higher DEX and the
possibility of spells or spell-like powers. Note that most CoC spells
aren't really combat type magic and are more like extended rituals for
summoning and binding creatures.

At 03:21 PM 6/3/1999 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@dedaana.otd.com>
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: CHAR: Shoggoth
>>
>> I remember that one, and an entry in the AD&D Fiend Folio (which
>> preceded that Grimtooth's Traps book, which was the first one I think) also
>> made mention of this weakness. Perhaps that's where that bit originated,
>> but I don't know....
>
>The Fiend Folo doesn't have the Shoggoth. Shoggoths for AD&D showed up in
>the first edition of Dieties and Demi-gods.

I think if you look in an old AD&D Monster Manual they have a creature like
the Shoggoth that has a weakness for music...or is it that when they are
there you can hear the music??? Anyway I think you'll find that to be the
culprit...

Leah L Watts wrote:

> > Isn't there a rumor or something that they have some sort of
> >weakness to
> >piccolo music? Or did the CoC designers pass over that fact? (Or was
> >it
> >made up by someone else not connected with either Lovecraft or
> >Chaosium?)
>
> One of the "Grimtooth's Traps" books used that weakness -- if you
> distracted the shoggoth with piccolo music, the high notes would break
> the glass walls of the underwater room you were in. (I think that's how
> it worked, I'm still trying to get another bookshelf set up for the rest
> of my gaming books.) The writer assumed everyone knew shoggoths were
> fascinated by piccolo music, but I don't really know where that got
> started.
>
> Leah
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > > Isn't there a rumor or something that they have some sort of weakness to
> > > piccolo music? Or did the CoC designers pass over that fact? (Or was it
> > > made up by someone else not connected with either Lovecraft or Chaosium?)
> > don't remember that while reading "At the Mountains of Madness".
> Maybe you're thinking of Azathoth? IIRC, he sits at the center of the
> universe gibbering and such, surrounded by weird alien pipers who play
> music to keep him calm.

In Regards To Shoggoth from 1st edition _Deities & Demigods_:

"Originally created by the Primordial Ones as servants , the
Shoggoths eventually rebelled and destroyed the civilizatio of theor
masters. Shoggoths resemble huge, intelligent amoebae, able to form
almost any shape out of their near transparent bodies, including legs,
eyes, mouths, huge weapons, or whatever is needed. The few remaining
Shoggoths lurk in distant, long deserted areas, sometimes aiding servants
of Cthulhu or other Old Ones."

Azathoth is accompanied by "satellite creatures that provide eerie
music"; "idiot flute players," which, in my best recollection, look like a
bipedal combination of frogs and goblins with rabbit ears. They can lure
people to Azathoth with their music.

- --- Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> wrote:
> At 11:23 PM 6/1/99 -0400, John Desmarais wrote:
> >Unfortunately, the bulk of the discussion took place during one of the
> annoying gaps in
> >my archive of the list
> (http://www.sysabend.org/champions/champ-l/archives). I have a
> >some of the individual posts related to that topic in a separate archive,
> but not all of
> >them.
>
> Okay, I hunted it down in my archive. This discussion took place from feb
> 4 - feb 17 and had about 5-6 different subject names. I'm going to put a
> copy of it on my website. It's a 800K mail file. Here's the prospective
> URL. There is no link to it from my main page and it will stop being there
> in a couple months.
> http://www.superlink.net/~why/templates.txt
>
> >p.s.
> >Anybody have copies of the posts to teh list Feb-Mar 1998?
>
> John, I have stuff from this period. I notice that you thanked me for a
> bunch of files. Didn't I include those posts? I could have sworn I
> included them. Let me know what you need and I'll see if I have it.

Okay, having screwed my brain back on and re-examining so data sent to me, I do
(now) have February and March of 1998 posted in the archives. Doh!