davidbrainerd wrote:
At this point I've lost interest in the nikayas as a whole as nothing but a mass of corruption with just a few decent suttas here and there. Buddha's true doctrine is clearly found in the Dhammapada not this mass of nihilist nonsense. And I would imagine that Hindus who venerate Buddha probably also only concern themselves with the Dhammapada and not the collections of nihilist sillyness called the nikayas.

Seeing as the Nikayas are central for Theravada and for the study of early Buddhism by all major academics, your continued hostility towards them is veering into the realm of trolling and proselytizing.

Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Self-taught poverty is a help toward philosophy, for the things which philosophy attempts to teach by reasoning, poverty forces us to practice. — Diogenes of Sinope

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14

davidbrainerd wrote:
At this point I've lost interest in the nikayas as a whole as nothing but a mass of corruption with just a few decent suttas here and there. Buddha's true doctrine is clearly found in the Dhammapada not this mass of nihilist nonsense. And I would imagine that Hindus who venerate Buddha probably also only concern themselves with the Dhammapada and not the collections of nihilist sillyness called the nikayas.

Seeing as the Nikayas are central for Theravada and for the study of early Buddhism by all major academics, your continued hostility towards them is veering into the realm of trolling and proselytizing.

And I've already read a great deal of them, and may even continue to do so. But unlike academics I'm not enamored with the constant pointless list-making, repetition, and agnosticism. Short as it is, the Dhammapada by itself has more substantial content in it than like 500 suttas, and its content more suited to practice rather than just regurgitation of lists and nihilistic cliches. I view it as the heart of Buddhism. Without it, you've got nothing. The nikayas without the Dhammapada wouldn't even be readable, but the Dhammapada is readable without the rest and more powerful without the rest which serve as shackles. A few of the other little texts from Khudaka Nikaya like the Udana also seem superior to what's in the other nikaya collections.

davidbrainerd wrote:Your dismissal of the Dhammapada as poetry is simply confirmation that the Dhammapada and the agnostic suttas are documents of rival sects. The only reason the canon makers who were obvious nihlists who hated Buddha's real teachings included the Dhammapada is obviously it was well known as his real teaching and could not be gotten rid of. So instead they merely isolate it and outnumber it by packing nihilism all around. Its the same basic method the Paulinists used against the sermon on the mount.

I do not dismiss the Dhammapada nor poetry. I'm simply aware, like I think most people, that poetry is not a medium for conveying technical information, laws, or doctrines etc. They are a supplement to prose not a replacement for it. They inspire us to see things differently through imagery and metaphor, I think few people would be so obtuse as to assume the Buddha would hide major doctrinal definitions not found elsewhere in a poem likening taming oneself to taming an elephant.

“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

Javi wrote:Seeing as the Nikayas are central for Theravada and for the study of early Buddhism by all major academics, your continued hostility towards them is veering into the realm of trolling and proselytizing.

It has been for quite some time.

“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

davidbrainerd wrote:Short as it is, the Dhammapada by itself has more substantial content in it than like 500 suttas, and its content more suited to practice rather than just regurgitation of lists and nihilistic cliches.

Perhaps it's time for you to form your own school, Dhammpadavada has a nice ring to it. Perhaps instead of examining the mind and freeing it from greed, aversion, and delusion you could have poetry reading circles.

If you think the Dhammapada is good wait until you try Rumi.

“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

davidbrainerd wrote:
At this point I've lost interest in the nikayas as a whole as nothing but a mass of corruption with just a few decent suttas here and there. Buddha's true doctrine is clearly found in the Dhammapada not this mass of nihilist nonsense. And I would imagine that Hindus who venerate Buddha probably also only concern themselves with the Dhammapada and not the collections of nihilist sillyness called the nikayas.

Seeing as the Nikayas are central for Theravada and for the study of early Buddhism by all major academics, your continued hostility towards them is veering into the realm of trolling and proselytizing.

And I've already read a great deal of them, and may even continue to do so. But unlike academics I'm not enamored with the constant pointless list-making, repetition, and agnosticism. Short as it is, the Dhammapada by itself has more substantial content in it than like 500 suttas, and its content more suited to practice rather than just regurgitation of lists and nihilistic cliches. I view it as the heart of Buddhism. Without it, you've got nothing. The nikayas without the Dhammapada wouldn't even be readable, but the Dhammapada is readable without the rest and more powerful without the rest which serve as shackles. A few of the other little texts from Khudaka Nikaya like the Udana also seem superior to what's in the other nikaya collections.

You are welcome to your opinion

Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Self-taught poverty is a help toward philosophy, for the things which philosophy attempts to teach by reasoning, poverty forces us to practice. — Diogenes of Sinope

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14

davidbrainerd wrote:Short as it is, the Dhammapada by itself has more substantial content in it than like 500 suttas, and its content more suited to practice rather than just regurgitation of lists and nihilistic cliches.

Perhaps it's time for you to form your own school, Dhammpadavada has a nice ring to it. Perhaps instead of examining the mind and freeing it from greed, aversion, and delusion you could have poetry reading circles.

Let me get this straight, you appear to be asserting that everyone of a given race or religion is a terrorist?

Or perhaps you agree with Erdogen that the descendents of Rumi, the Hizmet, were responsible for the failed coup?

Or is it as Dhammanando suggested?

“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

If anyone who tries to stereotype people based on religion, race, gender, colour, creed and country etc. have a political agenda.
This is my general opinion and not necessarily aiming at David.
This is a result of extreme Maana and we all should try to over come.

I think this thread should be re-labeled "Soul theories and the Dramma".

Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

如無為，如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Coëmgenu wrote:I think rendering the Pāli anattā into English as "identityless" and "identitynessless" really seems to express more easily the actual practice associated with cultivating a right-view on anattā. A doubting of permanent identity. The halting of grasping at identities. The halting of the formation of identities. What is actually discarded in Buddhism? We can say "the self is discarded", and that sound very mystical and profound and "Buddhisty" to an English speaker, but if we say "identity is discarded", I think that communicates what is actually meant in a clearer way, albeit less mystical and profound sounding.

Obviously someone could still misinterpret and develop wrong-views from hearing the word "identityless" as a part of anattā-teachings in English, I am thinking specifically that it could be interpreted by someone not informed about Buddhism as implying that we are all a group-consciousness, but people already make that misunderstanding with the terminology we currently use anyways.

Bundokji wrote:
We know that "identity" or "self" are useful in our daily life when dealing with society and other people, but why believing in a soul is important/useful? what are the consequences of this belief on the individual's behavior and/or well-being?

Coëmgenu wrote:I think rendering the Pāli anattā into English as "identityless" and "identitynessless" really seems to express more easily the actual practice associated with cultivating a right-view on anattā. A doubting of permanent identity. The halting of grasping at identities. The halting of the formation of identities. What is actually discarded in Buddhism? We can say "the self is discarded", and that sound very mystical and profound and "Buddhisty" to an English speaker, but if we say "identity is discarded", I think that communicates what is actually meant in a clearer way, albeit less mystical and profound sounding.

Obviously someone could still misinterpret and develop wrong-views from hearing the word "identityless" as a part of anattā-teachings in English, I am thinking specifically that it could be interpreted by someone not informed about Buddhism as implying that we are all a group-consciousness, but people already make that misunderstanding with the terminology we currently use anyways.

The problem being Indian philosophers in 20th century (to whom Sanskrit and thus Pali was almost first language) agree that anatta means no soul. So it cannot be flawed translation.

A History of Indian Philosophy Volume 1-5, Surendranath Dasgupta. Click and read Chapter V - Buddhisy Philosophy (link to Vol I below).

He was a meticulous and brilliant academic in early 20th century with two Masters Degrees (one in Sanskrit) and two PhDs in Philosophy (one from Cambridge). His understanding of Buddhism was independent of any translation because he could read and understand Pali as easily as you and I read New York Times.

As the five volume work shows, his grasp over English was no less.

I agreed with what ancientbuddhism wrote in Anatta Thread, because Surendranath Dasgupta -- for whom I have the highest regard -- wrote the same thing back in 1921 -- Buddha Dhamma teaches no soul.

This would give anyone a good idea of the spiritual landscape before Buddha, at the time of Buddha and Sramanas, after Buddha, and principal arguments of Advaita, the main Hindu counter-thrust to Buddhism in about 600 pages and puts everything in context.

Please do not mistake it as an attempt to proselytize. Well written, relatively short, 600 page summary of Indian Philosophy till Advaita is quite rare. So thought I would share it.

Last edited by No_Mind on Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bundokji wrote:
We know that "identity" or "self" are useful in our daily life when dealing with society and other people, but why believing in a soul is important/useful? what are the consequences of this belief on the individual's behavior and/or well-being?

In same way, rest of the folks, if they so wish, believe in soul. It is faith.

A belief in other realms (or literal rebirth) can influence human behavior and this as i remember has been discussed few times on this forum. However, i am asking what are the effects of believing in soul on the individual who believe in it.

If a soul exists, it has to be outside the realm of experience, yet the "belief" is in the realm of experience and should have an impact on those who choose to believe in it. You as a believer in the existence of a soul might be in a good position to tell us how this belief is useful/harmful?

Please note that i am not asking if this belief is justified or not, this is not my concern.

And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"