Harold Hallikainen wrote:
>> Do all the 18F have the ability to support a bootloader? If not, how does
>> one determine if it can?
>>
>>
>
> It SEEMS to be related to whether the chip has eeprom or not. If it does,
> I think you can generally bootload the flash. Otherwise, you cannot. Seems
> to work so far...
>
> Harold
>
>
>
It is related to whether the chip is able to change its own data memory
without being in programming mode.
The PIC16F87/88 can do it; the PIC16F818/819 cannot. The PIC16F876A can
do it, the PIC16F876
cannot.

One clue is that chips that are supported in Debug mode by the ICD2 can
almost all do it.

> > Do all the 18F have the ability to support a bootloader? If
> not, how does
> > one determine if it can?
> >
>
> It SEEMS to be related to whether the chip has eeprom or not. If it does,
> I think you can generally bootload the flash. Otherwise, you cannot. Seems
> to work so far...

what 18 series chips do you know of that can't self program?

given that every second gen 18 series flash chip i know of is covered by one
programming spec and that programming spec is very similar to the self write
sequence i'd be surprised if there were any that weren't.

the only 18 series chips without eeprom i know of the top of my head are the
2450 and 4450 and according to thier datasheets they can self write to
flash.

> It is related to whether the chip is able to change its own data memory
> without being in programming mode.
> The PIC16F87/88 can do it; the PIC16F818/819 cannot. The PIC16F876A can
> do it, the PIC16F876
> cannot.

the datasheet for the 876, 877 and friends has a section on writing to flash
program memory and the ICD2 contains an 16f877 with a bootloader on it (a
lot of clones use an 877a instead with modified bootloader code).

>
>> > Do all the 18F have the ability to support a bootloader? If
>> not, how does
>> > one determine if it can?
>> >
>>
>> It SEEMS to be related to whether the chip has eeprom or not. If it does,
>> I think you can generally bootload the flash. Otherwise, you cannot. Seems
>> to work so far...
>
>what 18 series chips do you know of that can't self program?
>
>given that every second gen 18 series flash chip i know of is covered by one
>programming spec and that programming spec is very similar to the self write
>sequence i'd be surprised if there were any that weren't.
>
>the only 18 series chips without eeprom i know of the top of my head are the
>2450 and 4450 and according to thier datasheets they can self write to
>flash.

Look for "Enhanced Flash", this means bootloadable and LVP. Standard flash means HV program only.
Note that a while ago there were a few errors in the comparison table on the Microchip site - not
sure if they've fixed them yet, and the '87x was mis-labelled as it came out before they settled on
that nomenclature.

Bob Axtell wrote:
> Harold Hallikainen wrote:
>
>>> Do all the 18F have the ability to support a bootloader? If not, how does
>>> one determine if it can?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> It SEEMS to be related to whether the chip has eeprom or not. If it does,
>> I think you can generally bootload the flash. Otherwise, you cannot. Seems
>> to work so far...
>>
>> Harold
>>
>>
>>
>>
> It is related to whether the chip is able to change its own data memory
> without being in programming mode.
> The PIC16F87/88 can do it; the PIC16F818/819 cannot.
Sure it can (see page 27)!!
> The PIC16F876A can
> do it, the PIC16F876
> cannot.
>
Sure it can !!
The chips need "enhanced eeprom",
which has nothing to do with debug mode.
But as far as I can remember all 16F chips that has "enhanced eeprom",
supports ICD.

>
> Look for "Enhanced Flash", this means bootloadable and LVP.
> Standard flash means HV program only.
all the first gen 18 series chips i've looked at are labeled as standard
flash yet are capable of self programming.

Microchip has three levels of certified PIC consultants: bronze, silver, and
gold. A year or two ago there were around 350 PIC consultants worldwide,
and 35-50 of them were gold. I'm sure the numbers have gone up since then.
I also heard that the fraction of gold was getting larger, and that they
might raise the bar a bit as a result.

The rating is based on activity with a scoring system I don't fully
understand. We ended up with the highest score of all consultants in the
2004 program year. This year at Masters I didn't hear anything about how we
did relative to the others for the 2005 program year other than we were
solidly in the gold catagory. In the end the level is only a rough
indicator of experience to customers.

> Bob Axtell wrote:
>
>> What does "Gold level" mean?
>>
>
> Microchip has three levels of certified PIC consultants: bronze, silver, and
> gold. A year or two ago there were around 350 PIC consultants worldwide,
> and 35-50 of them were gold. I'm sure the numbers have gone up since then.
> I also heard that the fraction of gold was getting larger, and that they
> might raise the bar a bit as a result.
>
> The rating is based on activity with a scoring system I don't fully
> understand. We ended up with the highest score of all consultants in the
> 2004 program year. This year at Masters I didn't hear anything about how we
> did relative to the others for the 2005 program year other than we were
> solidly in the gold catagory. In the end the level is only a rough
> indicator of experience to customers.
>
>
> ********************************************************************
> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
> (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
>

Thanks. Your accomplishments stand out.

I never took the program very seriously in the early days. Maybe in my
next life... oops, no,
in my next life I have decided to be a dentist. Home nights, marry the
pretty assistant, lotsa
money, etc.

> I never took the program very seriously in the early days. Maybe in my
next life... oops, no,
> in my next life I have decided to be a dentist. Home nights, marry the
pretty assistant, lotsa
> money, etc.

I have never believed in reincarnation at least non any of my previous lives
-- still do not believe, maybe at the next one :-)

>
> Olin Lathrop wrote:
> > Bob Axtell wrote:
> >
> >> What does "Gold level" mean?
> >>
> >
> > Microchip has three levels of certified PIC consultants: bronze, silver,
> and
> > gold. A year or two ago there were around 350 PIC consultants
> worldwide,
> > and 35-50 of them were gold. I'm sure the numbers have gone up since
> then.
> > I also heard that the fraction of gold was getting larger, and that they
> > might raise the bar a bit as a result.
> >
> > The rating is based on activity with a scoring system I don't fully
> > understand. We ended up with the highest score of all consultants in
> the
> > 2004 program year. This year at Masters I didn't hear anything about
> how we
> > did relative to the others for the 2005 program year other than we were
> > solidly in the gold catagory. In the end the level is only a rough
> > indicator of experience to customers.
> >
> >
> > ********************************************************************
> > Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
> > (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.
> >
> Thanks. Your accomplishments stand out.
>
> I never took the program very seriously in the early days. Maybe in my
> next life... oops, no,
> in my next life I have decided to be a dentist. Home nights, marry the
> pretty assistant, lotsa
> money, etc.
>
> --Bob
>
>