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The Neverused Tier

the neverused tier discussion thread.

the nu tier is a very interesting one, owing to its variety and the viability of many pokémon. as everyone says in a cliche manner, it's where many of the crappy pokémon earn a chance to show their prowess in a metagame suited for them. however, as we all know, some 'mons are still just not that great. there are of course some larger threats, and there are of course the ones that just fail to be of great use. however, that still doesn't discourage people from trying out interesting sets and perhaps even finding one that impacts the metagame. the viability of a wide range of pokémon that nu provides is just one reason why it's fresh and exciting.

this thread is open to discuss anything about the nu metagame. what pokémon are current threats? what sets are standard and best suited in nu? what are some creative and new sets that are tested or can be explored? most importantly, keep a discussion going relating to possible answers to these questions. :')
to start, i'll go through quite a list of pokémon that are prominent or are viable in no particular order.

rising black/white 2 threats.
with black 2 & white 2 comes a slew of newly-released dream world abilities as well as move tutors that have caused some pokémon to rise in usage and finally become good.

cinccino.dream world has blessed it with skill link, which is much more reliable over technician in exchange for a powerful wake-up slap. although the moveset u-turn/rock blast/bullet seed/tail slap is just about on every cinccino, it's just good enough to break through many 'mons. choice band is an excellent wallbreaker and can 2hko everything in the tier bar misdreavus, while choice scarf is an excellent late-game cleaner. however, without technician, wake-up slap is a pitiful 60 bp move to the point where people don't run it, and as a result steel types usually check cinccino decently.

zangoose.toxic boost zangoose. although one may compare it to ursaring, zangoose is sort of a middle ground in attack and speed whereas ursaring either goes guts or quick feet. however, one advantage zangoose has is quick attack, which makes it an excellent revenge killer alongside it denting many walls. one may run a swords dance set to make quick attack much more deadly, but ghost types will ruin the fun. as a result, sd zangoose would enjoy pursuit support or it can forego swords dance for night slash. it outspeeds the most common sucker punchers, absol and cacturne, barring scarf variants which is a huge plus.

amoonguss.all it needed was regenerator to be good. amoonguss sports respectable bulk as well as the ability to reliably put something to sleep with spore as well as stop 'mons (besides klang) from boosting with clear smog. grass/poison is amazing defensively which grants it nifty resistances to fighting, water, electric, and grass. it can also run dual status with stun spore if it wishes. being able to wall offensive threats while crippling them in the process and switching out to regain some health is just invaluable.

golurk.the recent ru dropdown has received many new toys from bw2 shortly after which, to some, is considered ill-timing. reason being is that golurk is now a hard 'mon to check in nu. shadow punch/drain punch/earthquake/ice punch hits most of the types for super effective damage which imposes a huge amount of offensive pressure, especially when choice banded. it also now receives stealth rock which makes golurk unique in being able to both set up hazards and spinblock much like froslass. cryogonal moving up to ru doesn't really help the opposing team either.

offensive threats in nu.
just some hard hitters. i'm not patient enough to sift through and write an entire list of 'mons, but these are just a good chunk of good offensive threats that nu has to offer.

absol.the first thing someone thinks of when it comes to an nu dark-type would be this. a 130 attack stat is spectacular, especially when paired with a stab sucker punch and pursuit. alongside the priority and trapping is the ability to gain nearly perfect coverage with superpower. all of these plus an immunity to psychic make absol's frailty negligible. with swords dance, absol becomes difficult to stop and will impose more mind games. faster priority, especially mach punch from gurdurr, is needed to help check this threat.

samurott.samurott seems like an average 'mon, but megahorn makes it a powerful physically offensive threat that can muscle through the grass pokémon that otherwise give it trouble. after a swords dance, samurott can be deadly as it has priority stab aqua jet. with its decent bulk, you can bet that there will be some times where samurott is brought into torrent range. a special set is amazing for additional coverage, with moves such as ice beam and hidden power grass/electric.

fraxure.thanks to the bw2 move tutors, fraxure can be especially scary now that it has superpower and aqua tail for coverage to go along with its base 117 attack. with eviolite, fraxure has enough bulk to set up a dragon dance and muscle through teams that are unprepared for it. it may not be terribly fast after a dragon dance, but it is still difficult to stop powerful outrages that can only be resisted by a small handful of steel types that still fall to a simple superpower if outplayed.

other notable offensive threats include: altaria, braviary, butterfree, carracosta, eelektross, emboar, haunter, kadabra, pinsir, rotom-s, sawk, sawsbuck, swellow, torterra, tauros, and zwelious. however, there are much more that are great too.

defensive threats in nu.
there are good defensive 'mons in nu. here are a small handful of defensive behemoths that i haven't mentioned that can really put some 'mons at a full stop if unprepared.

tangela.with regenerator and eviolite, tangela is absolutely hard to break through. add that with leech seed and sleep powder, and that just accumulates into a whole mess that can actually cause a team a lot of trouble. sleep powder can potentially take out a counter while leech seed is a decent form of recovery that wears down opponents. one shouldn't underestimate tangela's special attack too as 100 base isn't particularly weak for a wall even when uninvested.

musharna.musharna is insanely bulky with 116/85/95 stats, allowing it to take hits really well while recovering it off with moonlight. while it has pitiful speed, its bulk alongside its 107 base special attack allows it to be an effective bulky offense 'mon as well that can set up calm minds. its movepool may be limited, but signal beam and hidden power ground/fighting gives it good coverage. one may even consider running a choice specs set that can dent some 'mons as well.

misdreavus.when equipped with an eviolite, misdreavus' middling stats are now bolstered to great defensive levels. although it only has pain split to recover some hp, its support movepool aids its cause by carrying heal bell and will-o-wisp. furthermore, its immunity to normal and fighting is useful when looking at many threats (sawsbuck for example). it is a great cinccino check considering how it is immune to tail slap and is only 4hko'd by other moves if physically defensive.

other notable defensive threats include: alomomola, amoonguss, audino, flareon, gurdurr, lickilicky, miltank, regirock, torkoal, and wartortle. this is just a chunk of defensive 'mons; there are several more unmentioned ones too!

hazards in nu.
i don't think i need to explain much about hazards. a lot of sweepers are limited, especially ones that would like to switch a lot (swellow, cinccino, choiced 'mons). many walls may suddenly face a 2hko and will have trouble switching in as well.

probopass.stealth rock is one of the reasons probopass is used. but looking at the rest of its movepool, probopass offers an amazing slow volt switch which can help get certain 'mons in safely. probopass' defenses are great enough to take these hits and while its rock/steel typing may give it glaring weaknesses to fighting and ground, it is still a good check to the likes of cinccino. probopass can offer some support in the form of status as well, with the ability to thunder wave and toxic as necessary. however, thunder wave may ruin the point of a slow volt switch.

garbodor.garbodor is the most popular spiker in nu, due to it being able to carry both spikes and toxic spikes. poison typing gives it a nice fighting, poison and grass resistance, which is always useful. not to mention that it can absorb toxic spikes as well. with bw2, garbodor gained some new toys such as seed bomb and aftermath. although being a defensively oriented 'mon, garbodor has nice attack and speed stat which is not bad against other walls, especially when facing a powerful stab gunk shot.

cacturne.cacturne is a tricky one. horrible defensive stats with mediocre speed should immediately leave it hanging as something useless. however, having spikes alongside sucker punch and encore just makes cacturne a great offensive spiker that can lead to many mind games. with its offensive presence, cacturne can force frail opponents out with the threat of a sucker punch while instead getting up layers of spikes in the process. encore can work against slower walls and bullet seed is a probable option over seed bomb for frail or water-type substitute users.

other notable hazard setters include: armaldo, bastiodon, camerupt, carracosta, gigalith, golem, lairon, miltank, regirock, torterra, and torkoal. there are a few others, but these seem to be the main ones with mostly stealth rock.

what checks or counters some of these threats? especially the bigger ones in the bw2 metagame.

what are some creative sets that are actually usable?

there are many other questions to consider and topics on specific 'mons to discuss. hell, even ask your own nu-related questions! whether it is related to team building or about specific 'mons, it won't hurt.

Having played a lot of pre-BW2 NU, I must say that it was a very enjoyable and balanced tier. It was a great tier, definitely my favourite. You could easily use any pokemon and make it extremely viable, with an exception of a few of the completely awful pokemon, such as Delibird.

I'm not so keen on BW2 NU. It seems a lot like 'spam the most broken thing and win'. It's not, but at first glances it does seem a lot like that. Also, there is the very annoying Amoonguss, who is just annoying, but it has a whopping 80% usage, which makes you want to kill yourself, it's so annoying.

I'm a bit dubious about having a discussion thread about this temporary tier. I'm calling it temporary, because next month, a large amount of the prominent threats will probably move up, and leave NU. NU will also probably get some interesting pokemon down from RU, as they lose their shine in the new tier. Amoonguss, Golurk, Cinccino, are the pokemon that I (personally) think will leave NU, and they have large influences on the tier, and therefore I think that talking about what is good and what is not is a bit premature, and we will only have the tier we are looking at for another half a month. I'm not even bothering to learn the NU we are faced with at the moment, as next months NU will be completely different.

Ah NU, balanced good old fun. Sadly, not everyone at the bottom of the barrel shines here. Hopefully the PU tier becomes official. Seriously though, Gamefreak, you need to give guys like Castform and Spinda evolutions and give your birds something to differentiate themselves from each other bar raw power.

As for me personally, I have found great use in gimmicks, especially the combination of Ninjask and Regigigas, quite useful in NU most likely due to the weak competition making it easier to pull off. Also, I'm sad Charizard (who use to be a beast before generation 4 rolled around) is still stuck in the tier despite his new toys.

Actually, I would have said that all the birds in NU have different roles (albeit slight).

Swellow is fast, and still has a lot of power, but due to its poisoning and low defensive stats, it wont last too long. Swellow also has no way of getting past rock types.

Braviary is the most offensive, and also has pretty good bulk. It is also the only one with a set up move.

Dodrio has a balance of power and speed, making it a better choice to Swellow is you're not worried about having that extra bit of speed.

Fearow is the only one that gets ground coverage, meaning that it is a good choice for if you need to hit Bastiodon or Probopass hard. It also has an advantage over Braviary's Superpower because it can keep on using Drill Run, eventually Superpower's drops mean that it needs to switch.

Pidgeot can catch you off guard by using a mixed set, or a choice specs set.

Unfezant gets a good support movepool, being able to abuse Hypnosis and Taunt to make it a very annoying pokemon for stall teams. Its band set is also faster than Dodrio and more powerful than Swellow.

Noctowl can also make for a decent specially defensive phazer.

Although they may be small niches, niches they are, and to overlook them as 'all the same' is untrue. There is a different instance for each one.

I'm not so keen on BW2 NU. It seems a lot like 'spam the most broken thing and win'. It's not, but at first glances it does seem a lot like that. Also, there is the very annoying Amoonguss, who is just annoying, but it has a whopping 80% usage, which makes you want to kill yourself, it's so annoying.

despite a lot of things rising in usage and being common on most teams, there are still many underrated threats around.
the meta is just more offensively-oriented now. a lot of the new things around are susceptible to spikes; zangoose and cinccino don't appreciate it at all since they need to be able to switch a lot, and amoonguss can't securely switch into certain threats with spikes. they all get checked pretty easily too.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

I'm a bit dubious about having a discussion thread about this temporary tier. I'm calling it temporary, because next month, a large amount of the prominent threats will probably move up, and leave NU.

that's the case with anything really. there's always the top threats, but that doesn't limit the discussion to such, and any changes to the tier doesn't really affect that either.

Originally Posted by ParaChomp

Also, I'm sad Charizard (who use to be a beast before generation 4 rolled around) is still stuck in the tier despite his new toys.

honestly, charizard is probably the best fire-type in nu right now. it's just stunted by the lack of good spinners among all the sturdy stealth rock users. when you put that with the amount of faster 'mons that can scare it out with a ko (zebstrika, cinccino, swellow), there's just a lot of pressure placed on it. roost seems really cool with solar power now, but that just makes it easier for bulky dragon types to come and take hits because you're probably not running an air slash--which is admittedly weak if it isn't super effective--with it.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

Swellow is fast, and still has a lot of power, but due to its poisoning and low defensive stats, it wont last too long. Swellow also has no way of getting past rock types.

swellow is underrated now that new offensive threats are around and are causing a lot of rock/steel types to gain usage, but it's still amazing in that it can take on amoonguss easily and beat zangoose and non-scarf cinccino one-on-one. quick attack is invaluable no matter what to get hits against slower priority and get through sucker punches.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

Braviary is the most offensive, and also has pretty good bulk. It is also the only one with a set up move.

bulk up is worth testing, but i can't see it being too good. recoil and stat drops are sort of counterproductive to the set, but those moves are what braviary needs to muscle through teams. there's too much that can beat braviary right now for it to set up, so all i can see it doing is just smacking things hard before it dies. it's pretty good at that though.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

Noctowl can also make for a decent specially defensive phazer.

the metagame is really physically-oriented and noctowl just doesn't have key resistances that can help it on the special side. insomnia looks pretty nice though.

honestly, i can see where the whole "other than attacking birds" thing here, because only braviary and swellow are used a good amount. flying is an incredibly good attacking type, and it's not too hard to give the proper support in order to get rid of certain checks. the only issue is longevity, but they can still be some kind of nuke and put dents in something.

Who cares about his dream, the only character that should be feeling crushed right now is the Furfrou guy. Dude put all of his faith in Ash.

He looked like a male prostitute too, so he's probably crying his eyes out while standing around in shady street corners, which is bad for business because customers will be weirded out. Ash ruined his dreams and his job, what a terrible person.

despite a lot of things rising in usage and being common on most teams, there are still many underrated threats around.
the meta is just more offensively-oriented now. a lot of the new things around are susceptible to spikes; zangoose and cinccino don't appreciate it at all since they need to be able to switch a lot, and amoonguss can't securely switch into certain threats with spikes. they all get checked pretty easily too.

This is true, however we may not have time to see these underrated threats develop, as the metagame will have so little time to change. Spikes are also hard to set up in the highly offensive metagame, and the majority of spikers are completely overwhelmed. I wouldn't trust Garbodor or Cacturne to reliably get spikes up.

that's the case with anything really. there's always the top threats, but that doesn't limit the discussion to such, and any changes to the tier doesn't really affect that either.

The thing is, half of the top threats that are changing the metagame are almost definitely leaving next month. This means that next months metagame will be completely different to this one, however after next month it will probably settle down a bit. The metagame at the moment is unstable, unbalanced, and it will be changed next month, so we will only have a short time in this metagame. I, personally, do not think we should waste our time on doing in depth analysises of a metagame that will change before we actually use anything we have learnt from the analysises.

honestly, charizard is probably the best fire-type in nu right now. it's just stunted by the lack of good spinners among all the sturdy stealth rock users. when you put that with the amount of faster 'mons that can scare it out with a ko (zebstrika, cinccino, swellow), there's just a lot of pressure placed on it. roost seems really cool with solar power now, but that just makes it easier for bulky dragon types to come and take hits because you're probably not running an air slash--which is admittedly weak if it isn't super effective--with it.

I have to disagree. Charizard has found it increasingly difficult to actually get in, and then it will find it hard to switch in and sweep. Solar Power makes it even harder to use, as you need to run Sunny Day support and a spinner, meaning that Charizard will actually take 3 slots on your team. Spinning is practically impossible as well, seeing as the spinners are all horrible, and there are plenty of good ghost pokemon.

swellow is underrated now that new offensive threats are around and are causing a lot of rock/steel types to gain usage, but it's still amazing in that it can take on amoonguss easily and beat zangoose and non-scarf cinccino one-on-one. quick attack is invaluable no matter what to get hits against slower priority and get through sucker punches.

Swellow still does have massive problems with getting past those Rock/Steel types though, and it's not exactly hard to switch into Swellow.

bulk up is worth testing, but i can't see it being too good. recoil and stat drops are sort of counterproductive to the set, but those moves are what braviary needs to muscle through teams. there's too much that can beat braviary right now for it to set up, so all i can see it doing is just smacking things hard before it dies. it's pretty good at that though.

It's mainly the combination of Roost + Bulk Up that would make it viable (if it is at all). Bulk Up would allow it to get defence boosts, which would then mean that it could wall much of the metagame, while blasting it with powerful Returns/Superpowers/Brave Birds, and recover as well.

the metagame is really physically-oriented and noctowl just doesn't have key resistances that can help it on the special side. insomnia looks pretty nice though.

Yeah, it's mainly as a counter to the specially orientated physical tanks, namely Amoonguss and Tangela.

honestly, i can see where the whole "other than attacking birds" thing here, because only braviary and swellow are used a good amount. flying is an incredibly good attacking type, and it's not too hard to give the proper support in order to get rid of certain checks. the only issue is longevity, but they can still be some kind of nuke and put dents in something.

Most of the birds (fortunately) have Roost, which makes longevity less of a problem. It is somewhat surprising how many of the birds are actually better as defensive pokemon.

slowking is ru. in nu, a common pairing is amoonguss/tangela and alomomola.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

This is true, however we may not have time to see these underrated threats develop, as the metagame will have so little time to change. Spikes are also hard to set up in the highly offensive metagame, and the majority of spikers are completely overwhelmed. I wouldn't trust Garbodor or Cacturne to reliably get spikes up.

garbodor has decent speed to get a few layers up; 75 base isn't pretty bad. it outspeeds some walls that don't even have much business against garbodor anyway and poison gives it a few handy resistances regardless.
i run rocky helmet on my garbodor to check cinccino which works out pretty well just so that i can rid of it easily instead of having to use another moveslot for a different check that may end up being a liability to my team. if it ends up killing my garbodor to keep me from getting an extra layer up, then that's good enough because then i don't have to worry about a fast 'mon.

and actually, i'm trying to mess around with underrated things such as specially offensive samurott with three attacks and sub. with hazards, nailing alomomola or tangela/amoonguss with the correct move on the switch ensures the 2hko.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

The thing is, half of the top threats that are changing the metagame are almost definitely leaving next month. This means that next months metagame will be completely different to this one, however after next month it will probably settle down a bit. The metagame at the moment is unstable, unbalanced, and it will be changed next month, so we will only have a short time in this metagame. I, personally, do not think we should waste our time on doing in depth analysises of a metagame that will change before we actually use anything we have learnt from the analysises.

i don't see how that stops discussions in general. it's been done before; not just in nu. for what it's "worth" or being "wasted" on is a matter of whether you're into the metagame or not. i play nu; i'm prone to keeping up with changes.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

I have to disagree. Charizard has found it increasingly difficult to actually get in, and then it will find it hard to switch in and sweep. Solar Power makes it even harder to use, as you need to run Sunny Day support and a spinner, meaning that Charizard will actually take 3 slots on your team. Spinning is practically impossible as well, seeing as the spinners are all horrible, and there are plenty of good ghost pokemon.

basically what i said, but ok.
but fire types in nu are generally bad anyway. rapidash and emboar are the only notable ones that i see.
if you're really deterred from using a spinner (this isn't really for charizard specifically; just in general), cb rampardos (for rock/steel) or offensive torterra with bullet seed (for golem) is usable. just the offensive pressure.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

Swellow still does have massive problems with getting past those Rock/Steel types though, and it's not exactly hard to switch into Swellow.

neither is it too difficult to play around swellow's counters considering the fact that there's u-turn and even the weakest fighting/ground/grass moves weaken the corresponding rock/steels. there's no way you can play swellow without team support, but it's not that bad.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

It's mainly the combination of Roost + Bulk Up that would make it viable (if it is at all). Bulk Up would allow it to get defence boosts, which would then mean that it could wall much of the metagame, while blasting it with powerful Returns/Superpowers/Brave Birds, and recover as well.

i know, but it just sits at a mediocre speed to where it can still get targeted with strong attacks easily. you're foregoing substitute though, which leaves it open to status, and it just doesn't hit hard without the life orb or choice band. it needs a lot of support just to be able to start setting up.

Originally Posted by Barbeller

Yeah, it's mainly as a counter to the specially orientated physical tanks, namely Amoonguss and Tangela.

though noctowl isn't exactly a good counter. it can't do much to amoonguss and tangela itself because uninvested air slashes are weak and even leech seed is annoying. it can, however, set up screens or do some other supportive role, but it doesn't really do anything to regenerator cores.

I see cincinno TOO DAMN MUCH..
What about simple swoobat his defense sucks but with one set up it gets +2/+2 didn't had success with it though..
Same for klang good typing good bulk good attack and speed after +1/+2 but it didn't sweep too much for me..
Also I saw some dittos and amoonguses but I don't think they wll stay in OU for long also amolomola will probably reach RU.
natu is decent with eviolite and screens so little can beat him even SE moves fail to 2HKO sometimes.

@TerraWolf: NFE isn't a tier...

Originally Posted by Professor Oak

Only two things are infinite, the universe and the amount of zubat in caves, and I'm not sure about the former.

If there's one thing I've noticed, it's how people didn't hesitate to take advantage of Golurk when it dropped into NU. With the loss of Cryogonal, NU is really short on spinners right now. I've been looking through spinners trying to find a couple that can take on an incoming Golurk, and I've found two really good ones. Coincidently, these were also the 2nd and 3rd most popular spinners while Cryo was NU.

This is a surprisingly good spinner. It has a great base 125 Atk stat, so it hits like a truck as it is. This gives Armaldo the power to take off huge chunks of HP from Misdreavus with Stone Edge, and Aqua Tail lets it OHKO Golurk with ease. Once the spin blockers are gone, you can just spin freely and come back in to do some damage later. Not only does it beat Golurk with ease and weaken Misdreavus to the point where it can't switch back in, but it can also take even a CB Earthquake from Golurk if need be. Besides spinning and killing spin blockers, it pretty much does what any other CB Pokemon does: hit stuff really hard. STAB X-Scissor is great to have with all the popular Grass and Psychic types in NU, and a STAB Stone Edge hits pretty much anything that doesn't resist it incredibly hard. Aqua Tail is useful for a few things other than Golurk, such as Marowak, Probopass, and Golem.

Pretty standard spinner Wartortle here, just physically defensive instead of specially. This guy was a decent spinner before, but he now has the advantage of beating Golurk. Even with no investment, Scald does a lot of damage, enough for a 2HKO over half the time. Meanwhile, Golurk is doing a 53% maximum with a CB Earthquake, so you can take a hit just fine, two with a little luck. The rest of the set solves Wartortle's would-be problems of being setup bait. Anything that tries to set up boosts on Wartortle will have their boosts eliminated by Haze. Yawn is another cool trick up Wartortle's sleeve. While it handles Golurk just fine, it doesn't do much back to Misdreavus. With Yawn, Misdreavus faces a challenge of whether to stay in and fall asleep or switch out and let Wartortle spin freely. Even when Misdreavus isn't an issue, Yawn is just a nice tool for forcing switches and maybe even immobilizing something for the rest of the match.

Besides spinners, I've also found that VoltTurn is better now than it was before BW2. Cinccino was a decent U-turn user before, but the raw power of its Skill Link sets make it a much more dangerous offensive threat now. Eelektross also got a nice boost with Giga Drain, giving its special set a great new tool for nailing Ground types and gaining a little bit of healing as well. Its physical sets also now have new moves like Drain Punch and Superpower to abuse alongside U-turn. I'm currently testing out a little NU VoltTurn team, and it's been doing great so far.

i wasn't keen on going through all the nu 'mons to pick out every threat. just listed a bunch off the top of my head.
of course gorebyss is a threat after it sets up. though it's a shame that it still gets outsped by fast scarfers after a smash.

Originally Posted by Ilan

What about simple swoobat his defense sucks but with one set up it gets +2/+2 didn't had success with it though..
Same for klang good typing good bulk good attack and speed after +1/+2 but it didn't sweep too much for me..

both need good support to work effectively.
for swoobat, you need to ensure that priority users are gone and that it has a good resisted hit to set up on. choiced fighting attacks would be best i assume, but i don't know because i don't face swoobat too often. it's just way too frail; i can't imagine it being effective against some 'mons. i could even imagine super effective special attacks doing a good chunk to it even after +2.
klang has gear grind and return for its attacking options (it received wild charge too though). not amazing coverage. but eviolite plus steel's resistances lets it come in so easily to set up once anything that can wall klang is weakened enough.

This is a surprisingly good spinner. It has a great base 125 Atk stat, so it hits like a truck as it is. This gives Armaldo the power to take off huge chunks of HP from Misdreavus with Stone Edge, and Aqua Tail lets it OHKO Golurk with ease. Once the spin blockers are gone, you can just spin freely and come back in to do some damage later. Not only does it beat Golurk with ease and weaken Misdreavus to the point where it can't switch back in, but it can also take even a CB Earthquake from Golurk if need be. Besides spinning and killing spin blockers, it pretty much does what any other CB Pokemon does: hit stuff really hard. STAB X-Scissor is great to have with all the popular Grass and Psychic types in NU, and a STAB Stone Edge hits pretty much anything that doesn't resist it incredibly hard. Aqua Tail is useful for a few things other than Golurk, such as Marowak, Probopass, and Golem.

yes, an offensive armaldo is the way to go in my opinion. it needs to be played carefully, but it can cleanly 2hko misdreavus and ohko golurk with the appropriate move. even stone edge is a clean 2hko on amoonguss. but when using this, you need to play around alomomola because it doesn't have trouble switching into any attacks and it'll end up getting a free wish or toxic on anything if its switch-in is unpredicted. being able to break through with offenses to get the spin off is needed in nu if using a rapid spinner at all. the defensive sets just don't hit hard enough neutrally and it starts to become a liability after it gets stealth rock up. but i guess people are just drawn to the idea of a stealth rock and rapid spin user in one.

the only issue with this set is that one mispredict can mean having to switch out to later come in to take more unnecessary hazards damage and you may not even get the spin off at all. that's why it's just really hard in general to spin with armaldo and friends.
edit: oh i keep forgetting that misdreavus outspeeds armaldo, so it can still threaten back. that's unfortunate but at least it's decent wallbreaking.

Originally Posted by jesusfreak94

Besides spinners, I've also found that VoltTurn is better now than it was before BW2. Cinccino was a decent U-turn user before, but the raw power of its Skill Link sets make it a much more dangerous offensive threat now. Eelektross also got a nice boost with Giga Drain, giving its special set a great new tool for nailing Ground types and gaining a little bit of healing as well. Its physical sets also now have new moves like Drain Punch and Superpower to abuse alongside U-turn. I'm currently testing out a little NU VoltTurn team, and it's been doing great so far.

i feel like eelektross is amazing with u-turn over volt switch, especially with things like torterra or certain grass types expecting the electric move. choice band is by far my favorite set, and it still has ice punch and drain punch for nice coverage. superpower is nice too if you need to hit hard off the bat. the thing that's amazing about this is how it hits lickilicky hard unlike the special sets.

the only annoying thing is that alomomola has the potential to cheap its way out of a weakened eelektross by stalling out the wild charge recoil, so thunderpunch could work, but i just like the added damage in conjunction with a choice band. it's meant to break walls so might as well hit hard.

well, nu usage stats for july are here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3470332.
some of the expected stuff like amoonguss are high. i feel like cinccino is a bit of an overhype now since people have found countless ways to check it easily, from champion regirock to misdreavus and rocky helmet users. zangoose is definitely better than cinccino despite its surprisingly low usage at 28; the four attacks set grants it perfect coverage and priority, which is good on an offensive team where it goes well with any spiker and pretty much any other offensive 'mons.

the stats are pretty shocking honestly. aside from zangoose being lower than it should be, wartortle is damn high when it's really useless in nu. this thing is worse in nu than sandslash and claydol were in ru a few months ago, yet it sits at 18. anything with substitute shits on wartortle unless it's really frail or is weak to a scald. if it lacks haze, it's even worse as anything can literally set up on it.

gurdurr is low, musharna is low, haunter dropped (although with good reason considering cinccino screws its substitutes), skantunk is low, throh is low, piloswine being lower than gigalith is laughable. torterra being near gigalith in usage is laughable too; torterra at least does something offensively with a neat grass typing and stab earthquake. klang is extremely low; it has anti-metagame capabilities with steel's nice resistances giving an opportunity to substitute or shift gear, although it is not as significant as klingklang was before it went up. ludicolo should be a bit higher too because it's really hard to stop this thing when the rain is up and spikes are down on the opposing side. i could go in-depth into any of these, but i'm just glancing at it right now.

in terms of what should be suspect in nu, i would say zangoose. perfect coverage and priority along with immediate power is too good to pass up. the only argument to say it is not broken is the susceptibility to hazards and being limited with toxic orb. however, it pretty much gets a kill every game, and a smart player will know how to keep priority users away and keep offensive pressure. it bypasses all sucker punch users in the tier should they try to go for it.

amoonguss doesn't deserve to be banned right away, even though it is certain to move up in october. it's not broken, but has a neat ability to substitute and choose what it wants to spore to take out for most, if not all, of the match. however, with hazards against it, amoonguss fails to pivot around 'mons such as zangoose and ludicolo who do at least 60% to it with the appropriate move. gardevoir has a field day against it, and even a substitute/swords dance lickilicky that i've been seeing from a few people can set up on it too. regenerator doesn't make it too hard to handle. alomomola is in the same boat--regenerator is nice, but it's still set-up bait since it can't hit hard at all.

golurk is a top-tier threat, but in order to achieve that 2hko on pretty much everything in the tier, it needs to run a choice band. that is bad since its main stabs come with things that are immune to them. however, the ability to run either no guard or iron fist is difficult to overlook even though cb iron fist is the best set. dynamicpunch, although reliant on luck, is still a little annoying to deal with and stone edge is good for it too (even though ice punch hits similar things). that diversity can make it a bit harder to check. it's also top-tier because it beats every rapid spinner except wartortle (which shouldn't be used anyway since anything else takes care of it easily). the downfall is it being able to be pursuit trapped, and its slow speed along with its limitations to having to use choice band if it wants to achieve those 2hkos. using golurk really relies on the skill of the user and the predictions he/she can make. it shouldn't be banned, but i feel like it'll move back up.

i've already stated why cinccino shouldn't be suspect either; it's checked fairly comfortably nowadays. just to add, teams have responded by packing an extra priority user as well. so in my opinion, zangoose is the main thing that should be suspect right now if anything at all.

people were overhyping the broken factor of the bw2 changes brought to nu, but i believe it's still a fairly balanced tier that sorted itself out.

Once you get a few Coils in witch isn't hard if you come in on Banded EQ's nothing can OHKO you without setting up 1st, and any damage you take can be Drain Punched off. Wild Charge can be used for extra Power at the cost of some HP, I've found that extra HP is more often the decided between defeat and victory as I no longer have enough HP to survive a hit and Drain Punch back before getting any Coils up.
Aqua Tail nets a cool KO on Golurk and other Rock/Grounds that would otherwise try to ruin your day, and since you don't wanna waste PP of Drain Punch, Aqua Tail works just fine as it's Acc is fixed by just 1 Coil, though I've been experimenting with Fire Punch, but it never gets used as much as Aqua Tail (mainly only Tangela and Amonguss in my experience, and Eelectross shouldn't stay in on them anyways). If Eelectross had gotten Ice Punch too it'd be a real threat to everything.

I've been derping in NU and peaked at #30 on PO's ladder (because PS! hasn't been working well for me). I started with Zangoose, then switched to Quick Feet Ursaring. It has a higher everything except speed, which QF solves.

Exeggutor has been a great defensive 'mon for me. Resists Grass, Psychic, and Fighting, which helps out my team well. Harvest and Subs make it a huge troll. Also with Psychic it owns Amoonguses.

Best Stealth Rocks pokemon is Golem IMO because Sucker Punch allows it to do something afterwards if in an unfavorable matchup.

Sub/Disable Haunter has been suprisingly good to me.

Big trend I've noticed is scarfed Sawks everywhere. Probably the biggest troublemaker for me. I've heard talk that the PO NU guys might suspect test it with Emboar and Samurott. As for Amoongus, it may or may not get booted, but in October it will most likely be OU (3.9% usage in OU).

If Eelectross had gotten Ice Punch too it'd be a real threat to everything.

that definitely would give it a huge boost. the only issue with eelektross is the low speed, but it definitely has the bulk to pull off coil. it increased in usage (being at number 13) with the arrival of bw2 move tutors, and people are popularizing its choice band and specs set just because it has a few more moves to put in there, but coil is still definitely a thing of its own.

Originally Posted by kaiser soze

I started with Zangoose, then switched to Quick Feet Ursaring. It has a higher everything except speed, which QF solves.

the thing that sets zangoose apart is the priority and being stronger than ursaring without having to be as slow as it. by being able to outspeed things is what makes zangoose much more threatening, and being the middle ground of ursaring's sets with each of its abilities is the key here. that's why zangoose is likelier to move up. with quick attack, zangoose isn't as susceptible to sucker punches and leaves room for a mindgame if the sucker punch user is healthy enough unlike ursaring who definitely has to take the hit.

Originally Posted by kaiser soze

Exeggutor has been a great defensive 'mon for me. Resists Grass, Psychic, and Fighting, which helps out my team well. Harvest and Subs make it a huge troll. Also with Psychic it owns Amoonguses.

exeggutor is great offensively too. it doesn't necessarily need to be defensive; by running enough to outspeed alomomola (one of the fastest common walls used), it can easily get a substitute up, dispose of the obvious counter switch-in with stun spore or sleep powder, then hit something with psychic or giga drain. sunny day is no joke either, because it has the flexibility of using sunny day first to outspeed whatever switches in, then decide whether it's good to sleep powder what switches in or not. people should really think about how they use amoonguss, exeggutor, and other sleep inducers instead of just dropping a spore/sleep powder first thing. exeggutor alongside offensive rd ludicolo is very anti-metagame right now, because the common regenerator cores are broken easily. extremely underrated, but still good.

Originally Posted by kaiser soze

Best Stealth Rocks pokemon is Golem IMO because Sucker Punch allows it to do something afterwards if in an unfavorable matchup.

it had a drop in usage for good reason. cinccino's bullet seed can easily prevent it from getting stealth rock up and sucker punch will not do a lot. a lot of nu players right now just poorly throw golem in, but they really need to watch out for torterra, cacturne, and cinccino nowadays. golem is still good though just because of it having offensive presence, but steel/rocks are becoming more popular just because of cinccino's rise.

Originally Posted by kaiser soze

Sub/Disable Haunter has been suprisingly good to me.

it checks zangoose and always beats slow choice users (which aren't uncommon) such as golurk and emboar. still definitely good, but again it's just cinccino's rise that caused haunter's usage to drop like golem's.

I did a little playtest with a random NU team consisting of Rapidash/ScarfSawk/CBGolurk/Defensive Mawile/RD Swanna/SubSplit Weezing.

I did ok, and I had little problems with beating Amoonguss/Alomomola and Tangela.

you could try offensive rd ludicolo over swanna since it handles those cores slightly better with giga drain. but it really appreciates spikes, so a garbodor with spikes/gunk shot/seed bomb/drain punch can work.

From what I've been trying out, Amoonguss + Alomomola is a rediculously good Regenerator core, as it walls a good portion of NU atm, and is a monstrous benefit to Bulky Offense with Status support/Spore from Amoonguss and 267 HP WishPassing from Alomomola.

From what I've seen, I haven't seen Zangoose all that often. Though usage stats say otherwise, from my experience, setting up with Zangoose is hard. Furthermore, Cincinno really overshadows Zangoose because simply put, it's much better with a decent combination of moves and Skill Link, which gives it thre base 125 moves to abuse and kill stuff with.

From what I've seen, I haven't seen Zangoose all that often. Though usage stats say otherwise, from my experience, setting up with Zangoose is hard. Furthermore, Cincinno really overshadows Zangoose because simply put, it's much better with a decent combination of moves and Skill Link, which gives it thre base 125 moves to abuse and kill stuff with.

cinccino doesn't beat zangoose in terms of move coverage. what are you talking about?
whoever is trying to set up with zangoose is doing it wrong.

that is the zangoose set to use with perfect coverage and priority. using a swords dance set is, like you said, hard to set up with, but that also means that zangoose has to forego either quick attack or night slash. it wants both.

i think that cinccino's inferior right now just because so many things handle it much more easily unlike zangoose who only gets checked by faster things and priority. there's a plethora of rock/steels, people utilize rocky helmet now, and it's incredibly weak without a choice band or life orb. zangoose has the immediate power, a priority move, and the ability to switch moves with that coverage--something cinccino lacks. the only way to counter zangoose is to pack alomomola, which is huge setup fodder anyway, which says something about its ability to threaten many teams with 2hkos or ohkos. cinccino does not overshadow zangoose in any way, and i believe that zangoose is in higher consideration for suspect if people think it's broken.

people use choice band, not life orb. choice band 2hkos everything in the tier with the appropriate move, which means that golurk can put pressure on anything that comes in on it. the thing is that the use of golurk heavily relies upon the user's skill level and prediction, because choice band can open up a lot of opportunities for the opponent if the prediction is wrong.
people don't use stealth rock on golurk because they're usually packing a cinccino check on their teams which, for the most part, is something that can use stealth rock much more reliably than golurk. there's a prominence of rock/steels this round.

Last gen i used a ninjask baton set but i see potencial in this:
Ninjask @ leftovers
-batton pass
-Substite
-toxic
-protect
Nature: jolly
Evs: 248 HP/ 252 Spd /8 SpDef
I alsmost always got in a few swords dance and i stalled for like 20 turns with a set like this, so why not.
Note: Dustprance is one of the best NU pokes (my fave and awsome paraflinch/fuse)