The Final Nail In The Supply Side Coffin

Taxes are low and corporate profits are high, but nothing is trickling down to the American worker.

If politicians are going to continue kowtowing to every whim of the rich, can they at least think of a new excuse? Via Salon:

The theory of supply-side economics tells us that if you cut taxes on rich people and corporations, the moguls and businessmen will take their windfall and invest it, creating jobs and accelerating the rate of economic growth. The benefits of a light hand on the upper class, therefore, will “trickle down” to the working man and woman.

Ever since Ronald Reagan first attempted to make supply-side economics a reality and proceeded to inaugurate an era of persistent government deficits and growing income inequality, it has become harder and harder to make the trickle-down argument with a straight face. But we’ve never seen anything quite like the disaster that’s playing out right now.

The Wall Street Journal reported on Tuesday that corporate profits are looking quite strong for the second quarter of 2011. Even the Journal can’t sugarcoat the basic facts:

While the U.S. economy staggers through one of its slowest recoveries since the Great Depression, American companies are poised to report strong earnings for the second quarter — exposing a dichotomy between corporate performance and the overall health of the economy.

What makes this “recovery” so different? Perhaps the simplest answer is that labor has been broken as a force that can put pressure on management, so there’s little incentive for employers to turn profits into wage hikes or new jobs. Instead, employers are squeezing more out of the workers that they’ve got, and investing in equipment upgrades and new technology instead of human assets — labor productivity has risen sharply since the end of the recession.

Wages are moribund, unemployment is stuck at 9 percent, and the corporate bottom line is doing just fine. You could be excused for thinking that if ever there was time to put the stake through supply-side economics, it would be now. Wall Street and big corporations are doing just fine, but absolutely nothing is trickling down. And yet Republicans are still pushing the same old song and dance, passionately holding the entire creditworthiness of the United States hostage in return for even lower taxes on corporations, adamantly refusing to countenance even the slightest revenue increase to help cushion the hard times for the Americans who are getting a raw deal out of the current recovery.

Democrats come in for their share of the blame, too. The worst economic recovery for American workers in history has happened on Obama’s watch, and he appears remarkably oblivious to it. He may live to regret this oversight.

And you guys know something about the “American worker” exactly how…? O.o

Scarlett_156

And you guys know something about the “American worker” exactly how…? O.o

SCHMN

us Disinfo’ans or are you directing that at the politico-corporate schills? I will take a picture of me busboying if thats directed at the Disinfo-ites

Jin The Ninja

You are the hugest troll. Do you EVER read the articles or just ignorantly post right wing remarks free and easy, for all to see!?

Brentskinner5

Most right-wingers are too busier having more intelligent conversations at other websites. I hold my nose every time I come here. I don’t even know why I bother. You folks are the hardest of the hardcore. You’re the kind of people who probably would have agreed with Stalin. Just sayin’.

Mr Willow

I hold my nose every time I come here. I don’t even know why I bother.

Then stop bothering.

You folks are the hardest of the hardcore.

Have you been to www.alternet.org/?

Jin The Ninja

Loving the the shout out to alter.

Nice to see you on this side of the tracks!

GoodDoktorBad

A troll must leave his cave once in a while to fling boogers at the passing travelers.
Brent is just here to stir up shit. It makes him feel brave. Put him in a dress and he’ll be Ann Coulter.

He’s just a poopie head…..lol

Brentskinner5

LOL…good one, man! It’s too bad that only people here sharing good, sane ideas are labeled trolls. You’re much further gone than I thought.

The_Baffler

Sane? You didn’t just move the goal posts, you threw them off a cliff.

Brentskinner5

I come here because it’s my civic duty to rain truth on dumbasses.

E.B. Wolf

You know who else was big on civic duty?
Stalin: http://radicaljournal.com/essays/speech_at_celebration_meeti_4.html

Congratulations! You’re dirty commie socialist too.

Mr Willow

Really? Because all I’ve seen are conservative talking points and general idiocy.

stevieb

Well than you better get some training because it’s sure as shit that ‘truth’ ain’t what you’re raining down.

Pun well intended…

Jin The Ninja

Intelligence from the right wing!?! LMFAO.

You’re a master of hyperbole, jest and irony!

I’ve never seen a pop’n of people with such a distaste for history, humanism, logic, intellect, the arts, the sciences, and philosophy (political, spiritual and epistemological).

Uh Stalin?

No.

He was most certainly not a progressive, nor an icon of progressivism.

Che, on the other hand. I could be okay with him.

Chomsky, being my own personal preference.

Mr Willow

Chomsky, being my own personal preference.

Yes!

Brentskinner5

You’re about 15 years behind me in your thinking, dude. I liked Chomsky. …until I realized he was a joke. As for Che, I guess you’re OK with mass murderers. Don’t give me that crap about the mafia in Cuba. Che was a mass murderer because he liked to be one. And you respect that. And what about Stalin, hmm? Whether it what you really want or not, Stalin is what you get when you embrace progressive ideals, because the tenets of progressivism necessitate that you control others on a massive scale.

Mr Willow

Whether it what you really want or not, Stalin is what you get when you embrace progressive ideals, because the tenets of progressivism necessitate that you control others on a massive scale.

Malarkey.

Stalin is an example of totalitarian authoritarianism. He did not care about the well-being of his citizens, only the country. Authoritarianism only cares about what its name implies: its own authority; its own perceived image. Stalin used the people to improve the outward æsthetics of the state–employing slave labour to further his own selfish ends–in a “progressive” system, the people are the state, and therefore would never be subjected to such cruelty.

Which, you know, sounds an awful lot like what the Founding Fathers were trying to build: A government of the people, by the people, for the people. The People are the Government, so rather than have this conservative mentality concerning the government of “Watch out for the Government” or “The Government is taking my shit” it should be We the People who dictate which laws are passed and which ones are not.

Sadly, that is not the state of things precisely because of this Crusade of Private Ownership the Republicans are on about. Do not mistake me, I do not mind at all if you own a house, clothes, yard, etc. but it has been taken way too far, so that everything must be owned by one individual or another, in most cases to the detriment of society as a whole. We sell off portions of land and water to oil and gas giants only to have water supplies tainted by chemicals or rendered useless because of toxic sludge and soil depleted of all its worth or the crumbling of mountains. And when some industrial accident does occur the industrialists and capitalists shrug it off unless they begin losing money or are caught in a scandal over it because their actions were exposed.

Remember the head of BP: “I just want my life back!”

Yeah, who gives a shit that he poisoned an entire ecosystem and killed every fishing job from Alabama to Louisiana, he can’t enjoy his yacht races. Despicable.

Or the Massey mine that exploded last year because the company didn’t want to spend its precious money on ventilation. And then when the workers died they were only treated as though they were machinery that had malfunctioned and were disposed of. Their fellow workers weren’t even given time off to attend the funeral.

And of course this drive to own things extends to people as well. More specifically politicians. These are the sorts of people who pay lobbyists to buy our “representatives”? In the end I think capitalism is a poor economic system (at best) because it does not recognise the value of the worker, it does not give people worth.

Tuna Ghost

Stalin was a totalitarian authoritarian, not a communist or progressive or any of those things.

GoodDoktorBad

Left wing. Right wing. Chicken wing. All lame with almost no meat.

Brentskinner5

Ah, yes, the enlightened one with all the answers. You assume so much. And when you reach the limits of your capacity to understand, you resort to the “end” of your thinking, which tells you anyone who adheres to the right wing or left wing or whatever is somehow the intellectually barren one.

Hadrian999

out of curiosity, a question for a man as wise as yourself slumming this cesspit of loathsome reds,
If the conservative mantra is less spending less government and more freedom why do we see the size, scope, and cost of government skyrocket under conservative as well as liberal leadership?

GoodDoktorBad

Ok Brent. You speak an awful lot about the market, left wing and right wing, but you speak little of people in general. As you inferred people make it all “work”. People get jobs to build the machines that put others out of work for instance. Great, automation is wonderful, seriously. What are machines for anyway? What are they there to serve -really? My guess is PEOPLE. People are why it all exists. People need things to live.
There is no frontier left. We can’t move to the wilderness and live off the land. We’re all stuck here more or less with few alternatives to speak of.Then there’s the “labor market”, ya know, all those PEOPLE with “very little skin in the game”. You’re right the free market is dead, assuming of course that it ever actually lived. “Clever” people who understand the game are what it’s all about? Those same clever folks who don’t do much at all but leverage the system, employ armies of lawyers, file and produce endless laws and policies designed to apply pressure and squeeze the lemons -oblivious to the fact that those lemons are people and the juice is their blood. Watch it trickle down. Pretty ain’t it?

Frankly, I don’t give a crap about left -right politics or socialism or any other divisive and vague label you want to cast around like a fishing lure. They’re only abstractions and distractions. People need to come first, that’s the reality. Without people all those systems and excuses for greed and slavery are irrelevant.
This is not civilization, it’s a human cattle farm that you defend with such ignorant zeal.

I can’t even tell what it is you support Brent or what it is you are trying to prove to us left wingers and socialists as you would characterize us. What is your philosophy here? Really, what is it?
How about some real answers or ideas Brent. We’re sick of gnawing on your meatless chicken wing.

Personally, I’ve been working nearly thirty years, I paid my taxes etc.
Now I can’t even seem to land a job at McDonald’s let alone the field I was in. I can’t afford to retrain. I want to work, this is not fun for me or anyone else. I want to contribute and be of some use to myself and fellows.
Don’t assume we’re all looking for handouts alone.
Do you have a job? Would you like to keep it? Would you like to continue to have food and shelter?
That’s what we all want. That’s what we all need. PEOPLE Brent. Just people, no matter what idiotic label we all choose to wear.

You came to make war with all the PEOPLE on this site and you don’t even know who or what you are fighting. You just repeat all the “right wing” prattle and rhetoric, insisting we’re all just bums and sycophants, hovering like a fucking vulture, waiting for some scraps to feed and harp on.

It’s a fucking Joke.

stevieb

“Most right-wingers are too busier having more intelligent conversations at other websites.”

Is that right? Well waddya know….

Tuna Ghost

Actually, I welcome more right-leaning people to Disinfo, just for the diversity. I agree that in an expanding, healthy economy capitalist supply-side economics could work. But that is not at all where the US is or where the US was. I’m genuinely curious as to why you think it is.

Brentskinner5

*are busier

GoodDoktorBad

Fishing for angst? Be careful where you throw your line fool. Plenty of folks these days would love to have you for dinner.
Coward. Speak that shit in public and you are like to end up in the belly of the beast. O.o

Rex Vestri

Git ‘er Dok!

The comments section of this thread is definitely on fire

LOVE the O.o at the end, lol

Brentskinner5

New tone.

GoodDoktorBad

Ditto bitch

Brentskinner5

How mature and enlightened of you. I’m so sorry to have invaded your stupid little online fiefdom of group left-think with ideas you folks don’t seem to like. It’s no wonder we can’t get anywhere. We have a bunch of immature crybabies with the vote. Very little skin in the game, nary an understanding of how the game best functions, but all the right to change the game’s rules.

You know, the illusion that we still live in free markets causes us to fight each other. Free markets are long gone. It is our MASSIVE federal government — and the power-hungry Marxist narcissists who aspire to take its reigns — who lead us to economic ruin.

MoralDrift

dude…anyone who seriously thinks that Marxists are running the show in Washington is fucking stupid, bottom line

Tuna Ghost

Do you really think Marxists are either in control or trying to take control? How on earth does the present state of things lead you to that idea? I’m honestly curious.

Tuna Ghost

Not sure what you’re really asking here, but for one a lot of us are Americans and working class. Not to mention American workers are making themselves heard pretty loudly in places like Wisconsin.

Hadrian999

the greatest problem with the theory is the fact that even living very well you can only spend so much, anything beyond that gets hoarded, you can only eat so much, drink so much and by so many cars and TVs at som point the wealth stops flowing out of the upper class. tax cuts on those who are most likely to spend the excess income is much smarter, but those people are much less likely to own politicians.

Hadrian999

the greatest problem with the theory is the fact that even living very well you can only spend so much, anything beyond that gets hoarded, you can only eat so much, drink so much and buy so many cars and TVs at some point the wealth stops flowing out of the upper class. tax cuts on those who are most likely to spend the excess income is much smarter, but those people are much less likely to own politicians.

SCHMN

us Disinfo’ans or are you directing that at the politico-corporate schills? I will take a picture of me busboying if thats directed at the Disinfo-ites

http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

It’s a good time to be among those who said “It won’t work!” 30 years ago…”It isn’t working!” 20 years ago…and “We’re headed over the cliff!” ten years ago…

…except that now we’re still going off the cliff…and saying “I told you so.” is slender comfort.

http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

It’s a good time to be among those who said “It won’t work!” 30 years ago…”It isn’t working!” 20 years ago…and “We’re headed over the cliff!” ten years ago…

…except that now we’re still going off the cliff…and saying “I told you so.” is slender comfort.

GoodDoktorBad

I knew 30 years ago. It’s wasn’t hard to see without dollar signs gleaming in your eyes. After all, if one actually thinks about it, it is obvious that everyone can’t be rich. To be rich you must have those dollar signs plated in gold and permanently attached to your retinas so as to blind you to the shameful reality you’ve helped to create and perpetuate, all to bolster the illusion that you are somehow superior and more deserving. Delusions of Godhood.

A condition that will only add to the shock of your throat being ripped out to feed the hungry masses of the people you’ve stolen from.

Brentskinner5

When has wealth ever trickled up? Or do you folks mean to suggest that there’s never a trickling in any direction, sideways included?

You guys fail to factor uncertainty into the equation. Supply-side economics works when uncertainty is kept to a minimum. Shepherded by the left, however, private enterprises at once have no idea what regulations and taxes will be like and fear both will be ratcheted up.

Sorry, but it’s demonstrable. Rich people are rich because they’re good with money. They’re not all assholes, a notion you folks like to promulgate. Give them a proper environment that breeds confidence and a measure of certainty, and they’ll invest and buy, leading to jobs — the trickling down.

Brentskinner5

When has wealth ever trickled up? Or do you folks mean to suggest that there’s never a trickling in any direction, sideways included?

You guys fail to factor uncertainty into the equation. Supply-side economics works when uncertainty is kept to a minimum. Shepherded by the left, however, private enterprises at once have no idea what regulations and taxes will be like and fear both will be ratcheted up.

Sorry, but it’s demonstrable. Rich people are rich because they’re good with money. They’re not all assholes, a notion you folks like to promulgate. Give them a proper environment that breeds confidence and a measure of certainty, and they’ll invest and buy, leading to jobs — the trickling down.

Jin The Ninja

Pretty much all wrong. In fact, i can’t even find one thing that is passable for basic econ 101.

I can tell from your post that you must be a graduate of bob jones’ fox news school of reagonomics.

You fail this round, but feel free to read an actual book and try try again;).

Brentskinner5

I don’t watch TV. It’s all garbage. You give no examples to back up your statements. I suppose that you have a degree in business administration and know better. Really, I don’t care. I’ve been busy working all day, creating value and persuading others of the value of what I create.

Jin The Ninja

“Persuading” being the operative word, since it doesn’t sound like you really understand what value is.

As to the documentation: open a book on basic economics. “the shock doctrine” is a good start since klein’s style is very accessible and none too fraught with big numbers.

My economics background, was an econ 101 course (ECO100y to be specific) as an undergrad. It took no great intellect to understand the basics….

Brentskinner5

Um, yeah…I fear you still haven’t grasped it. It’s one thing to create something of value; it’s quite another to persuade others of that thing’s value. It sounds like you misunderstand the nuances of perceived vs. actual value. Most of the time, the two intersect, but not always.

MoralDrift

Yes and thus reveals the slimy and disgusting nature of American Capitalism. I was always told growing up that the French were masters of taking garbage food, dressing it up, and serving it on a silver platter to those looking for “fine” dining. In the same way Americans have become masters of taking trash of one form or another, dressing it up, and serving it up in delectable packaging. I have no taste for fancy French food and I have no taste any longer for American consumerist garbage.

If an entire economy is to be based on how well one can repackage a turd and extract “value” from the sale of said turd…then we might as well let the nukes fly and start the whole damned thing over because we fucking screwed up somewhere along the way. To justify our failing economic system by stating that most people simply are not good at finding ways to scam money off of others is simply asinine. And also for the record, you capitalized (creating) wealth in your original comment, I’m here to tell you that wealth, as a form of energy, cannot be either created or destroyed. It can be extracted, transformed, traded, gifted, swindled, or wasted but it certainly cannot be created! All wealth that exists is a measure of the capacity to “do work” or effect change and if we better understood that we would CREATE change in the world instead of perpetuating an existence where we are expected to sell trinkets to one another for the rest of fucking eternity.

Laws456

Good with money?? Good with screwing people and taking their money is more like it.

Brentskinner5

And no laborer, if given the money and power, would ever screw someone over? You’re fighting human nature. And you embrace rather simplistic if-then logic, presuming that “if this guy says the rich are good with money, then he must believe it’s OK to screw people over.” And you’re wrong. Should we have regulations? Yes — rational, reasonable measures premised not on the emotional class warfare you (consciously or unconsciously) promote, but instead, on dispassionate observations of what works and what doesn’t. For instance, we KNOW that raising taxes does not improve the economy or lead to more revenue. It doesn’t matter if it seems “fair” or not. Static analysis of tax revenue is flawed. Here, we put one in the “w” column for the right wing. They’re correct, and the left is wrong.

Jin The Ninja

“Human Nature”

you REALLY mean a randian capitalist sociopathy.

Humanism- it’s a good thing.

Brentskinner5

Your point? Sure, humanism can be a good thing, or just a thing. Is it sociopathy? Maybe. But what do you call the vanity of the few in their collective belief that they in fact know better than all the masses, who they label sociopathic, en masse? What’s that? Hmm…maybe Marxist narcissism? Your mistake is, as one human being, to attempt to qualify randian capitalism as bad (i.e. sociopathic). But the perspective of one human being is exceedingly narrow.

Nuggett

Brent, I read your above comment as follows:

“Yeah rich pplz are bad…maybe? But poor ppl know-it-alls are bad 2. It is what it is ya’ll. One person ain’t Jesus”

Do you qualify the school-yard bully’s habit of stealing peoples’ lunch money as “it is what it is” because sometimes other kids in the class might misbehave as well?? (usually far less reaching)

Here’s a scenario: Little wimpy kid gets lunch money stolen daily from big bully and his cohorts (driven by greed and fear). One day, after a year, kid tries to get even by sneakily stealing back some of the bullies’ money.

Is this morally justifiable? No. BUT, who’s side am I on???? The wimpy kid’s fucking side. It wasn’t fair and there NEEDS to be balance there. You might as well call a spade a spade instead of your mumbling on with your “economics is complicated though” waste of an argument.

Nugget

And let me be clear. I’m not even arguing from a moralist’s standpoint. It’s an argument for stability’s sake. If a class of people is degraded to the point of perceiving prolonged serfdom under the authority of a not-so-benevolent ruling class or dictator, they WILL revolt. Check history as my source…

Laws456

I don’t think raising taxes is necessary, I just think the government should do the whole thing over and make it more simple. I also believe that corporations should be penalized for not paying their share, just as you or I would if we don’t pay our taxes. This is what I’m talking about when I say that they screw people over, it’s not an emotional argument, it’s a real one. Let’s just look at Halliburton. Look at what they charge the US govt for doing one load of laundry over there in Iraq. What about the supposed “clean” water they supply the troops with? I agree, rational measures are needed. The entire taxes argument is misleading anyway, so no, the W does not go into the right’s column. Nice try though. We know what doesn’t work, and that’s the economic policies of America. It may look like it’s “working” but it’s clearly hurting more folks than its helping and if you try to compare the US to say, Cuba, or Greece, you’d be making a bullshit argument.

Nuggett

“What works and what doesn’t” Doublespeak alert…

The right might have basic econ principles in line that, theoretically applied with responsibility, would strengthen an economy. I won’t deny that. I am not anti-capitalist like so many here. What you need to realize is that right now, the right wing is not right. They are drunk and delirious on wealth. They are addicted and rapacious. They are paranoid and they are anything but dispassionate.

Andrew

> When has wealth ever trickled up?

When poor people buy food and other essentials. And when middle class people buy TVs and stereos and such. In other words, all the fucking time. DUH.

Brentskinner5

So it trickles down first. Sure, as you say, it does trickle up. But where is it CREATED? I guess that’s my point, and forgive me for being unclear. Wealth created by fiat, is never legitimate wealth, and so, unless these people first have jobs created by wealth, they’ll have no money with which to buy.

I want to focus on something Redtwstr said, below, as I believe you’ll find it interesting:

The entrepreneur is just better than the typical laborer at creating value — at creating the perception of value…at SELLING the idea. This skill of his or hers then attracts capital in those who agree about in the idea’s value. This, in turn, provides the money for which to employ laborers who — yes — are integral to the carrying out of a project. The very best entrepreneurs respect this fact and treat their laborers well, and it’s understandable when labor complains for mistreatment. It’s also wrong to go into the entrepreneur-laborer relationship presuming mistreatment before it happens and thus laying the groundwork by which the entrepreneur no longer sees the point in selling his or her ideas to attract capital. Where are the laborers then? They rather vainly presume that they themselves have the intellectual and whatever else wherewithal to do what the entrepreneur did; they do not.Much of this seems unfair to the laborer, but then we get into the whole quandary of quantifying fair vs. unfair — impossible, in my opinion. There is no fair, only do. Maybe Yoda would say that. Maybe it’s nihilistic. But the entrepreneur does better at what he or she does than does the laborer. The silver lining in our society is that anyone with the ability may become an entrepreneur. Not all have the ability, and to assume otherwise is folly.

Andrew

That’s a nice, simple theory, and there’s some truth to it, but the difference between “wealth” created by government fiat and an entrepreneur’s creation of a perception of “value” is not as great as you seem to think.

Also, don’t dismiss the issue of fairness and then decry taxing the rich to pay for social programs as if it were somehow unfair.

Redtwstr

Wealth does not lead to labor. Labor leads to wealth. Period.

Brentskinner5

You are clever. This is not an either-or equation. I think you know that, yet typed your comment so as to set a trap.

Wealth and labor are co-dependent. A century ago, wealth mistreated labor. Today, labor mistreats wealth just as much as wealth mistreats labor, and in many instances, even when wealth does not mistreat labor.

Until labor realizes and acknowledges this, we’ll continue to see silly one-way arguments like yours, and labor will continue to suck the wealth until there is none left.

E.B. Wolf

That argument would have been more compelling if you had made it 50 years ago. But since then, labor’s relative income has stagnated even while their production has risen drastically. There is simply no disputing this fact without a willful denial of mathematics.

Wealth’s wealth has exploded in that same time. Corporate profits are at record highs virtually year after year. The really wealthy have not possessed a greater share of the total wealth of the nation in a century.

So who is mistreating who? How can you seriously say that “labor will continue to suck the wealth until there is none left,” when the wealth is indisputably flowing the other way?

Brentskinner5

E.B., you are arguing, essentially, that labor is worth more than the value the market has given it. You argue this because you see that value as unfair. But it just is what it is.

One thing that struck me regarding this article was the very premise that today’s economic environment — assuming that it indeed reflects those ideas implemented 30-ish years ago — has led organizations to invest in equipment and other such upgrades rather than to pay labor more. The conclusion this writer makes is that this is bad; labor loses out, and we get economic misery.

What ignorance! Who makes all that equipment? Fairies? PEOPLE DO. We more and more KINDS of jobs. This is a good thing.

E.B. Wolf

What I’m arguing is that you’re premise in the comment I responded to is full of shit; which you conveniently failed to acknowledge in your response.

As to whether investment in equipment made by people is a good thing. Of course it is-for China and other foreign countries where the jobs are being created.

If there had not been a rush to sign “free trade” agreements to export all those jobs to the slums of the Earth, it would have been good. But instead they were sent offshore. So no, we don’t have more jobs created here.
If the equipment was made here, you would be correct. But as it stands, Business are encouraged to commit economic treason to squeeze out a few more dollars in profit at the expense of the people of their own nation.

Tuna Ghost

So what do you make of the fact that corporate profits have been increasing steadily, but wages have remained the same and benefits have shrunk? Is this what you call “labor sucking the wealth”?

http://drewt333.tumblr.com/ drewt333

I agree. Wealth moves to markets where value can be assessed and agreed upon by all actors involved. Artificial constraints and external manipulation, like the ‘stats’ mentioned above, force wealth out. As time has adequately demonstrated you can’t ‘run’ an economy like it was a machine, make it go ‘fast’ or ‘slow’ with taxes and subsidies. Markets are organic and only function with voluntary cooperation.

Brentskinner5

Thank you, drewt333! I was beginning to think I was the only reasonable person commenting here!

I’m sorry life has yielded you lemons, Jin_TheNinja. Some people have trouble getting beyond the resentment of that and, instead, embrace socialism.

MoralDrift

you will embrace the vacuousness of your ideology as ashes in your mouth

Tuna Ghost

Are you going to tackle his comments, or just—oh fuck it nevermind

Tuna Ghost

Are you going to tackle the comments, or just let us suppose that it’s because you think he’s an extremist right-winger that his comments aren’t factual? That’s an ad hominem, by the way.

Jin The Ninja

What is your problem, Tuna? Brent is a huge troll and you know it. I don’t why you feel the need to defend him.
Speaking of Ad Hominem- so am i to assume all the ignorant remarks Brent said about me should get a free pass because he offers “diversity of opinion”?? frankly, if i wanted that sort diversity of opinion (RIGHT WING FASCISM FYI), i would go post on huffpo or democratic underground. There is a reason i stick to disinfo and alternet.
I have never attacked you personally, nor vehemently disagreed with you about anything. In fact i have liked several of your comments….so WTF??

Tuna Ghost

Don’t take it personally, I have nothing against you. But if we’re going to have a discussion, it has to be a real one–no shortcuts. I find faults with Brents comments, but its not because he’s right-wing.

http://drewt333.tumblr.com/ drewt333

You’re welcome.

Nuggett

Circle jerk betwixt Brent and drew is laughable. These truths are OBVIOUS. The market is amorphous and rules itself. Ok we get it. You cannot control it. Got it.

This doesn’t justify Brent’s comments on the political right being correct. I’m not advocating anything on strengthening the “market” which is not in ANY way analogous to the “economy”. With QE3 and heavy foreign investing, the market is not anymore American than the EU.

How can you people justify a “market” that CONTROLS the government. Sure, the market doesn’t determine who gets elected. Chya. How do you get into office again? Oh yeah, a shit ton of money. Who lobbies for that? Oh yeah, people with shit tons of money. Who controls media outlets that control public opinion? People with shit tons of money. The consensual market free traders in America control the goverment and its policies.

And now we’re back to your comment on “control is the wealth of the political class”. Ok…and who controls the political class?

http://drewt333.tumblr.com/ drewt333

Most people (of any ‘class’) readily surrender their self-control to whoever can adequately manipulate their fears and desires. Whoever ‘controls’ the political class would be making broad promises about delivering votes and getting committee approvals – along with threats of vetoes, obstruction and support for ‘the other guy.’
If you want names and addresses these folks can help:http://www.opensecrets.org/

Nuggett

Ok. I agree with this. My question was hypothetical, and more broadly addressed to Brent, who seems to equate the state of the American economy with the state of Wall Street. And, he then wildly attributes economic success to right wing political ideology. He’s either a shill or very naive.

http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

Trust me…he’s both…every discussion on Disinfo that touches on right wing economics has been marked with his usual stink…and all future ones probably will too.

Some don’t get it. Some do. There has never been any motivator for capital to move downwards in the form of investment, hiring, wages, benefits, charitable giving, community projects, etc etc…except high taxes on the wealthy and corporations. High taxes FORCE capital to be invested for some small gain rather than largely lost. Low taxes encourage hoarding and always have. During the preceding century, post Depression…high taxes fueled a surge of investment and growth never before seen in American history…and then we cut the taxes…and predictably the level of investment and growth declined for decades and then crashed after these last rounds of giveaways. We will never again see capital invested in jobs, wages, benefits, charities or foundations/trusts/college grants until we make those outlets tax free havens where money can go without being penalized…and tax hoarding of capital so cruelly that it ceases to be the preferred treatment of wealth.

Nuggett

Your post made me want to listen to Subterranean Homesick Blues.

Hear hear!

stevieb

“Artificial constraints and external manipulation”. Stats don’t constrain or manipulate markets. Policies can and do – but the reasons can be debated.

‘Wealth moves to markets where value can be assessed and aqreed upon by all actors involved.”

I think the history of capital flight demonstrates clearly that it isn’t necessary to have consensus. The U.S military ensures that it capital needs a home, the gun will make sure it gets there…

http://drewt333.tumblr.com/ drewt333

True! Political agendas constrain and manipulate markets with obfuscation, distraction, misrepresentation (‘lies’ to you and me) and coercion (‘the gun’). The aim is social control, not wealth creation. Control is the ‘wealth’ of the political class.
Human wealth is the creation of human ingenuity and effort combined with capital. A ‘market’ enclosed by external agendas and coercion is slave labor.

stevieb

When does it trickle up? How do you think people get rich Brent?

Tuna Ghost

So given the current climate, or rather the climate of the last couple decades, shouldn’t we factor in that fear and uncertainty and look for a different economic system? I agree supply-side economics can work in a healthy, expanding economy but that is not where we’re we are at the moment. Surely another system must be found, yes?

Anonymous

There is not a single politician in the UK who would argue in favour of ‘trickle down’ economics because they would be universally derided for proposing a notion that has long since been thoroughly discredited.
But it lives on in the USA! The mind boggles……

cakey pig

There is not a single politician in the UK who would argue in favour of ‘trickle down’ economics because they would be universally derided for proposing a notion that has long since been thoroughly discredited.
But it lives on in the USA! The mind boggles……

Brentskinner5

Right, and whatever they’re doing in Europe presently isn’t at all discredited, right? What is it that they’re doing, again? Oh, right, SOCIALISM.

Mr Willow

Yes, and the majority of Europe is both happier and better off than two-thirds of the US.

Brentskinner5

That’s a sweeping statement. And it ignores the massive debt crisis the EU faces.

99prozent

A debt crisis caused by US-american business practice and US-american rating agencies…

Jin The Ninja

Just as a note for future reference and general knowledge-

the practice of neo-liberal economics (aka the art of screwing the people royally)

has nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with socialism.

And that my fine right-wing friend, is the present state of european economics.

Although the europeans, bless them, have the good and sound mind to shut off the bloody tele, and march against hypocrisy and injustice.

Brentskinner5

OK, so explain to us all, Mr./Ms. “I Took Econ 101, So I Know Everything about Economics,” how the EU’s models of massive government involvement in everyday life is not socialism, and is in fact neo-liberal economics. And, furthermore, if it is indeed neo-liberal economics, please explain to us what perfect world we would need to construct so that a massive effort to implement “true” socialism would not actually, and every time and necessarily, yield us neo-liberal economics, instead.

Brentskinner5

*are not examples of socialism

The_Baffler

You’ll be broken under the same lash as us, so whats with the self righteous pretensions? Or can you tea partiers not make it through a day without a screaming hissy fit?

Brentskinner5

Geezis, man. Talk about PROJECTION. Who’s throwing the collective, masturbatory hissy fit? This site’s self-righteous left wingers and whatever the hell else-ers. It’s laughable. Perhaps if you approached tea partiers with the intention of trying to find common ground, rather than with the intention of trying to refute those “effing a-hole, racist, tea-bagging, irrational hissy fitters” (and thus prove MSNBC’s contrived hypothesis correct), we’d actually get somewhere.

The_Baffler

“Who’s throwing the collective, masturbatory hissy fit?”

You.

stevieb

no. its called neo-liberalism and it’s nearly the same as the U.S.. good lord man.

btw what does ‘socialism’ mean to you?

cakey pig

What a bizarre reply.

Europe isn’t a single country btw.. it’s split into many individual nation states, each with their own democratically elected government – some left, some right wing. If you mean the EU, then it still falls wide of the mark to descibe it as ‘socialist’, sorry ‘SOCIALIST’, because socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned. What means of production do the EU own, exactly?

I think you have a chip on your shoulder and you imagined that I was in some way saying that ‘Europe is good and America is bad’, whereas in fact I attacked one tiny little aspect of American economic philosophy that is believed only by a minority. This is commonly known as building a straw man.

You probably belong to that rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth American brigade who imagine that any criticism of any aspect of America, its culture or its philosophies, is like some dreadful personal attack on their sacred, perfect and superior nation.

Tuna Ghost

OH NOES SOCIALISM oh wait that’s just stupid. You had some good points further up the thread, and then promptly discredited yourself with your knee-jerk reaction to perceived socialism. As cakeypig points out, what means of production are owned by the EU? Because some european nations are more left than the US (its hard not to be, these days), its socialism? Or rather, SOCIALISM?

Anonymous

Pretty much all wrong. In fact, i can’t even find one thing that is passable for basic econ 101.

I can tell from your post that you must be a graduate of bob jones’ fox news school of reagonomics.

You fail this round, but feel free to read an actual book and try try again;).

Anonymous

You are the hugest troll. Do you EVER read the articles or just ignorantly post right wing remarks free and easy, for all to see!?

Kalliwalli

unemployment at 9%? lol yeah right more like 20% or higher now.
read some statistics about the economy then respond back!

Kalliwalli

unemployment at 9%? lol yeah right more like 20% or higher now.
read some statistics about the economy then respond back!

Jin The Ninja

Doesn’t everyone know by now that stats are a form of social control?

The japanese used statisticians to “prove” the racial inferiority of and subsequently subjugate indigenous pop’ns in the south pacific. the british used them to pacify india, and gain an understanding of how to subvert and manipulate society. Canada doesn’t keep stats on child poverty, yet promotes the “progressivism” of a mandatory census….

Labour figures toe the official line. Even MSM sites like huffpo have long advocated doubling the figure to more accurately count the “real” numbers. If you, like i do, read progressive sites like this one, alternet, motherjones, truthout etc you know this method is quite conservative and that the number is nearer 2.5 times the “official stats.”

If they actually released the “real” numbers- i think more people would awaken to the nature of the reality of the big “C” and organise against it. Obfuscation, distraction and manipulation. That is how any gov’t functions in pacifying their pop’n.

Anonymous

Ummm….how about this? The trickle-downers KNOW it doesn’t work. I mean, honestly? How can anyone believe that after decades of watching this policy fail to help anyone other than the richest of the rich, these folks actually think that this will help the poor and unemployed? They put forward the idea that it does so that they don’t have to cop to the fact that they really don’t care about the unwashed masses at all. The goal is to make the rich richer and the poor poorer and when you accept that, then you can definitely say that trickle-down economics has always been hugely successful. Of course, saying that flat out would alienate some voters, I imagine.

bookwench

Ummm….how about this? The trickle-downers KNOW it doesn’t work. I mean, honestly? How can anyone believe that after decades of watching this policy fail to help anyone other than the richest of the rich, these folks actually think that this will help the poor and unemployed? They put forward the idea that it does so that they don’t have to cop to the fact that they really don’t care about the unwashed masses at all. The goal is to make the rich richer and the poor poorer and when you accept that, then you can definitely say that trickle-down economics has always been hugely successful. Of course, saying that flat out would alienate some voters, I imagine.

stevieb

“Of course, saying that flat out would alienate some voters, I imagine.”

Great post – but I’d disagree with the implication of that comment. Yes it would alienate ‘some’ voters – the rich capitalists – but I’m sure if it was explained as you just did I’m sure it would be a very positive reaction…
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Anonymous

Doesn’t everyone know by now that stats are a form of social control?

The japanese used statisticians to “prove” the racial inferiority of and subsequently subjugate indigenous pop’ns in the south pacific. the british used them to pacify india, and gain an understanding of how to subvert and manipulate society. Canada doesn’t keep stats on child poverty, yet promotes the “progressivism” of a mandatory census.

Labour figures toe the official line. Even MSM sites like huffpo have long advocated doubling the figure to more accurately count the “real” numbers. If you, like i do, read progressive sites like this one, alternet, motherjones, truthout etc you know this method is quite conservative and that the number is nearer 1.5 times the “official stats.”

If they actually released the “real” numbers- i think more people would awaken to the nature of the reality of the big “C” and organise against it. Obfuscation, distraction and manipulation. That is how any gov’t functions in pacifying their pop’n.

stevieb

Zionism generally controls our governments. And Zionists need a steady source of arms, money and dumb people – all of which they have in abundance in the current two-party(or three in Canada, maybe Britain) scam. I like to borrow Bush’s ‘axis of evil’ in identifying three elite power structures; zionist, military-industrial, and corporate/financial institutions – all of whom have an interest in maintaining the status quo and to move away from the democratic model for western society…

stevieb

Zionism generally controls our governments. And Zionists need a steady source of arms, money and dumb people – all of which they have in abundance in the current two-party(or three in Canada, maybe Britain) scam. I like to borrow Bush’s ‘axis of evil’ in identifying three elite power structures; zionist, military-industrial, and corporate/financial institutions – all of whom have an interest in maintaining the status quo and to move away from the democratic model for western society…

stevieb

Zionism generally controls our governments. And Zionists need a steady source of arms, money and dumb people – all of which they have in abundance in the current two-party(or three in Canada, maybe Britain) scam. I like to borrow Bush’s ‘axis of evil’ in identifying three elite power structures; zionist, military-industrial, and corporate/financial institutions – all of whom have an interest in maintaining the status quo and to move away from the democratic model for western society…

Honu

Zionists?! Really? 1960 called and they want their paranoid conspiracy theory back. And if you really hate Jews just say so. Don’t hide behind ‘zionists’.

If you hate fascism why are you so obviously suckered into it? Who do you think told you that the Zionists are so bad? Guess what, a bunch of Islamo-fascists and their puppet groups. I guess we should accept their story without any criticism whatsoever, at least if you’re not a “Zionist hack”… It’s amazing what people will believe.

stevieb

I’m afraid you need to look at yourself and what you support and why. We should read very carefully, consider a number of different sources to compare and contrast, and apply what we learn to our value systems. We should, as many of us do, recognize that our media is compromised by ownership issues and issues of political control in western nations, and various respected academics have demonstrated the right-wing propaganda that has become the mainstream in America – destroyed by media concentration, and oligarchy bordering on monopoly that really has no place in a democratic nation….

I’m quite confident that Islam has absolutely nothing to do with our current problems. And when some moron on a message board tries to tell me that it is, I know that he/she is a part of that problem.

Zionists are indoctrinated at such a young age these days with all of these paid trips to Israel to get young American, British, Canadian Jews to love another country – fanatically, above all else. To love an idea – mostly myth – so much they can ignore the fact that they are destroying another people who actually have lived there for thousands of years.

That’s going to be a problem when these types of people get important positions of power. A big problem when – as one example – they comprise up to 40% of of the entire U.S government….

stevieb

….”up to 40% of the major federal positions.” I should add…

If this is true, is that a bigoted position? Or is it a rational position to be very concerned about religious fanatics(which I think is borne about by a careful reading of the evidence)having positions of power in a political system based on access to money – up for sale,(essentially, as I see contemporary western politics).??

Even if you support it, which you obviously do, it’s very easy to recognize this reality if one is honest.

SF2K01

The only thing you’ve added is the age old fear of the Jew. Never mind that most Jews aren’t religious and don’t have any central authority making them hold the same views or do the same things or that I see way more Jews working seriously on peace than I do Muslims. Never mind that the Saudi government is spending their billions in oil money in America on a concerted effort to indoctrinate us into holding their views and ignoring everything the Arab world does. And never mind that nearly every president and department of state have been buddy buddy with the Saudis going way back. The number one concern is the Jew. Oops or did you mean Zionist there, you use them so interchangeably that it becomes obvious what you mean.

That’s the lack of honesty we’re concerned about. The fact that people drink the cool-aid and believe in the conspiracies that they’re told to while ignoring the very real ones as they manipulate people all over the world. The message of a billion Muslims is that somehow, 14 million Jews worldwide (half of them located in one country) is the cause of all the evil in the world. Yeah, I’ll believe them, no way they’re lying about anything. They’re totally honest with no ulterior motives, not even the ones they claim they have.

I’ve been on the ground in these countries. I’ve seen Jews and Arabs living comfortably and side by side in Israel, but I can’t say I’ve seen the same anywhere else in the Mideast where non-Muslims are viewed with suspicion, if it’s even legal to not be Muslim. So you’ll excuse me if I don’t exactly care what either wing of the media says.

Unless you solely watch fox news, the vast majority of the media leans strongly left. Please alert me as to how MSNBC or CNN or NPR, etc are at all tools of the right wing conspiracy?

stevieb

That was kind of cute in it’s complete naivety. I’m guessing you actually believe that which is really a sad thing. If you’re Jewish you would think with knowledge of the Holocaust you would be able to recognize the bigotry you spew about Islam and Arabs – based on mostly lies and hysterical media reports, usually by rabid Zionist Jews. Which is ridiculously easy to find out and confirm. Your comments about the left and Muslims and the media are ridiculous – and again – a snap to find out if one chooses to look it up.

Zionism is to Jews what Nazism was to Germans. And Zionism is actually very antisemetic; it’s definition of ‘the Jewish People’ or sarcastically, when it suits them, “the Joooozz’ – lifted wholesale from Hitler’s regime.

Zionism is a cult that has been forced on global jewry to support it’s fascist colonialist goals, It was a mistake that will probably end up destroying the planet. And these ideas may seem crazy to you – but they will soon be mainstream and uncontroversial – reality has a way with things like that.

BTW being anti-Israel does not necessarily mean anti-Jew, as much as Zionist hacks would love to have people believe that. My family(British) were particularly fond of Germans just after the war. But times change and the German people have mostly redeemed themselves. Zionism will be a disaster ‘for the Jews’, and for Jewish people -and I doubt there’s a happy ending this time.

Speaking against Zionism, is imo, a very important thing for Jew’s to do….

stevieb

“my family WEREN’T fond of Germans…”

And now some of my best friends are German.

Really. I swear…

SF2K01

I’m spewing bigotry and hate against Arabs? I was merely pointing out facts, facts which Muslims themselves are very proud of and open about. Seriously, why are people so interested in denying the very things which the Arab world is extremely expressive about? It’s obvious they’ve been brainwashed into believing in some fantasy version of the Arab world that doesn’t exist. Have you ever left the country and visited the middle east? Ever? No one there hides what they think. I don’t bother reading most American news, it’s hardly worth while.

It’s obvious you have no idea what the middle east is like for either the Muslims or the Jews and lack any conception of the people or their political governments. It’s ridiculously easy to see how false it is if you would just look. It’s easy to be an armchair critic reading pre-filtered news that plays to your biases. Open your eyes and stop drinking the kool-aid. Use your mind and stop accepting the obvious truth and see what’s really going on.

If you’re Jewish you would think with knowledge of the Holocaust you would be able to recognize the bigotry you spew about Islam and Arabs – based on mostly lies and hysterical media reports, usually by rabid Zionist Jews. Which is ridiculously easy to find out and confirm.
Who’s lying? The Saudis, who openly admit to it? And if its all caused by “rabid Zionist Jews, which is “ridiculously easy to find out and confirm” than it won’t be difficult for you to back up your claims, now will it? Should be a snap. Go right ahead and show us how easy it is.

The_Baffler

The only thing Jews control is stand up comedy.

stevieb

That’s cute, but I’m sure you don’t believe that…

The_Baffler

Yes, I do. You mad you didn’t get to blow Hitler? Put a gun to your temple, pull the trigger, and I promise you can.

Redtwstr

stevieb, you sound like a bigot.

stevieb

Oh? And how’s that? I’d love you to try to explain that one

Tuna Ghost

“Zionism” has long been the code-word for “jews”. If that isn’t the case, tell us who exactly you mean by “zionists”. Any mention of the Protocols will have you laughed at as an ignorant bigot, as that was proven to be a fiction long, long ago.

Anonymous

I thought the final nail was already in the coffin, they just forgot to put the theory and the policy in the coffin.

Laws456

I thought the final nail was already in the coffin, they just forgot to put the theory and the policy in the coffin.

Anonymous

Good with money?? Good with screwing people and taking their money is more like it.

Andrew

> When has wealth ever trickled up?

When poor people buy food and other essentials. And when middle class people buy TVs and stereos and such. In other words, all the fucking time. DUH.

Andrew

> When has wealth ever trickled up?

When poor people buy food and other essentials. And when middle class people buy TVs and stereos and such. In other words, all the fucking time. DUH.

Anonymous

I knew 30 years ago. It’s wasn’t hard to see without dollar signs gleaming in your eyes. After all, if one actually thinks about it, it is obvious that everyone can’t be rich. To be rich you must have those dollar signs plated in gold and permanently attached to your retinas so as to blind you to the shameful reality you’ve helped to create and perpetuate, all to bolster the illusion that you are somehow superior and more deserving. Delusions of Godhood.

A condition that will only add to the shock of your throat being ripped out to feed the hungry masses of the people you’ve stolen from.

Anonymous

“Brave new world of secret fantasy
That hovers just beyond your bloody grasp
Close enough to thrill, the danger of the kill
[The] Price for failure of your will”

“Like’s” free to anyone who knows who wrote this….

GoodDoktorBad

“Brave new world of secret fantasy
That hovers just beyond your bloody grasp
Close enough to thrill, the danger of the kill
[The] Price for failure of your will”

“Like’s” free to anyone who knows who wrote this….

Mr Willow

Those are the lyrics of Road to Hell by Iron Maiden’s Bruce Dickinson.

Slowly bleeding, watch the vortex feeding
Like a swirling vulture on your face
Every hour the unseen rays devour
Your screaming eyes cry out but they are blind

Father, forgive me my sins
Give me the nails, I’ll hammer them in

The road to hell is full of good intentions
Say farewell, we may never meet again
The road to hell is full of good intentions
Get on the left-hand highway with no sinister regrets

Brave new world of secret fantasy
That hovers just beyond your bloody grasp
Close enough to thrill, the danger of the kill
Price for failure of your will

Father, forgive us our sins
‘Cause we’re all the junkies who never can win

The road to hell is full of good intentions
Say farewell, we may never meet again
The road to hell is full of good intentions
Down the left-hand highway with no sinister regrets

Father, forgive me my sins
Give me the nails, I’ll hammer them in

The road to hell is full of good intentions
Parody of hope is the one that I must kill
We all have to live with our family inventions
Down the left-hand highway with no sinister regrets

The road to hell is full of good intentions
Say farewell, we may never meet again
The road to hell is full of good intentions
Down the left-hand highway with no sinister regrets

Fishing for angst? Be careful where you throw your line fool. Plenty of folks these days would love to have you for dinner.
Coward. Speak that shit in public and you are like to end up in the belly of the beast. O.o

Redtwstr

I don’t agree that Obama is oblivious to this issue, especially after listening to his speech today. Sounded more like the Rethuglicans are the ones being oblivious. Otherwise I agree with this article.

Redtwstr

I don’t agree that Obama is oblivious to this issue, especially after listening to his speech today. Sounded more like the Rethuglicans are the ones being oblivious. Otherwise I agree with this article.

Redtwstr

I don’t agree that Obama is oblivious to this issue, especially after listening to his speech today. Sounded more like the Rethuglicans are the ones being oblivious. Otherwise I agree with this article.

Rex Vestri

Obama just pays lip service to the problem though. When it gets down to actually solving the problem, look what he’s done: He laid down without a fight on renewing the Shrub tax cuts for the rich. And most recently, he even put Social Security and Medicare on the bargaining table in the discussion over the debt ceiling.

GoodDoktorBad

Obama is a carbon copy of Bush as far as general policy (no racial slur intended).

Hadrian999

did you expect otherwise? the political system is fueled by corporate money, staged on corporate media,
no person that actually opposes the plans of the corporate nobility will ever reach a serious level of power.

GoodDoktorBad

Not really, but I had a shred of optimism mostly because he’s a black man. I foolishly thought he might have a shred of decency considering what his ancestors have and are going through. Silly me….

I’m a fool for “change” I guess.

Hadrian999

honestly the only thing i can think of that would cause real change is if a majority of americans disavow the sham democracy political system and a real general strike across all types of labor shut down the country, unless this happens the masters can continue to play group against group to maintain the status quo .

GoodDoktorBad

I agree. A tax revolt would have a similar effect.

I was watching a show on PBS about the end of the USSR. It was from the perspective of a few of their citizens. It really was remarkable the parallels between what was happening there and what is happening here and now -at least in the way it was described by the people who lived it.
Who knows what may happen when a system can’t support it’s citizens. When things were at their worst and people were out in the streets, the military was called in to restore order in Moscow, but after some tense hours the military stood down and joined with the crowd. The change was remarkably peaceful, all things considered.

We think that the USA is somehow eternal sometimes. Dare I sound like a tea bagger but our America as we knew it is already disintegrating. It barely resembles it’s former ideals in theory, much less practice.

Do you think our military is mindless enough to turn on civilians here on a large scale? If that happens, all is lost don’t you think?

Hadrian999

the last few months i was in the army my unit was on rotation as a quick reaction force for domestic protest suppression, i don’t know if soldiers would actually attack protesting civilians if ordered but the plans and training are already there, i think it would mostly depend on how secure their paychecks were and if it were isolated or wide spread, if it were a localized protest i believe the military would attack civilians if ordered.

E.B. Wolf

They have in the past. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

But i doubt any localized protest would require the actual military to crush by force. Our militarized police would be more than capable of doing the job; and most of them would be happy to do it.

GoodDoktorBad

Yeah, look what happened to JFK. He wanted to get rid of the Federal Reserve.

Mr Willow

Nor do I. He recognises the issue, that’s why he won the presidency; because he identified a whole host of real issues during the campaign.

He simply has no intention of fixing the issue.

Redtwstr

Wealth does not lead to labor. Labor leads to wealth. Period.

Redtwstr

Wealth does not lead to labor. Labor leads to wealth. Period.

Redtwstr

Wealth does not lead to labor. Labor leads to wealth. Period.

Redtwstr

Wealth does not lead to labor. Labor leads to wealth. Period.

Redtwstr

Wealth does not lead to labor. Labor leads to wealth. Period.

Redtwstr

Wealth does not lead to labor. Labor leads to wealth. Period.

Redtwstr

Wealth does not lead to labor. Labor leads to wealth. Period.

Redtwstr

stevieb, you sound like a bigot.

Redtwstr

stevieb, you sound like a bigot.

Redtwstr

stevieb, you sound like a bigot.

Redtwstr

stevieb, you sound like a bigot.

Redtwstr

stevieb, you sound like a bigot.

Rex Vestri

Obama just pays lip service to the problem though. When it gets down to actually solving the problem, look what he’s done: He laid down without a fight on renewing the Shrub tax cuts for the rich. And most recently, he even put Social Security and Medicare on the bargaining table in the discussion over the debt ceiling.

E.B. Wolf

First “trickle down economics” is discredited, now “supply side” too? Damn! I guess they’re going to have to rename it again.

E.B. Wolf

First “trickle down economics” is discredited, now “supply side” too? Damn! I guess they’re going to have to rename it again.

Rex Vestri

Git ‘er Dok!

The comments section of this thread is definitely on fire

LOVE the O.o at the end, lol

Anonymous

That last paragraph caught my wandering attention. The democrats need to be exposed for the rascals they are. After all, the deficit clock started ticking on 1/20/2009 and anything that happened under Dubya’s watch was magically erased. Makes sense to me.

Audio7

That last paragraph caught my wandering attention. The democrats need to be exposed for the rascals they are. After all, the deficit clock started ticking on 1/20/2009 and anything that happened under Dubya’s watch was magically erased. Makes sense to me.

http://drewt333.blogspot.com/ drewt333

I agree. Wealth moves to markets where value can be assessed and agreed upon by all actors involved. Artificial constraints and external manipulation, like the ‘stats’ mentioned above, force wealth out. As time has adequately demonstrated you can’t ‘run’ an economy like it was a machine, make it go ‘fast’ or ‘slow’ with taxes and subsidies. Markets are organic and only function with voluntary cooperation.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1625716831 Jay Gorham

Kurt Vonnegut missed it by a couple of decades, but he hit the nail on the head in the 50’s with Player Piano. We are there and it is scary.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1625716831 Jay Gorham

Kurt Vonnegut missed it by a couple of decades, but he hit the nail on the head in the 50’s with Player Piano. We are there and it is scary.

Anonymous

Obama is a carbon copy of Bush as far as general policy (no racial slur intended).

DeepCough

Lotta people don’t realize that supply-side economics ain’t exactly new–this very concept is what led the U.S. to the Great Depression: overproduction from industry caused an overabundance of supply that could not be adequately dissolved by consumer demand, and that’s what brought the marketplace to a screeching halt. But Americans have a poor sense of history, so we end up committing this mistake again in the 80’s under Reagan, where taxes were cut, but government spending increased, creating a government deficit that would come back to haunt us during the Bush administration 20 years later. So far, the U.S. has two strikes in the game of Capitalism. If the rule of three is any indication, the third strike will be its last.

DeepCough

Lotta people don’t realize that supply-side economics ain’t exactly new–this very concept is what led the U.S. to the Great Depression: overproduction from industry caused an overabundance of supply that could not be adequately dissolved by consumer demand, and that’s what brought the marketplace to a screeching halt. But Americans have a poor sense of history, so we end up committing this mistake again in the 80’s under Reagan, where taxes were cut, but government spending increased, creating a government deficit that would come back to haunt us during the Bush administration 20 years later. So far, the U.S. has two strikes in the game of Capitalism. If the rule of three is any indication, the third strike will be its last.

Brentskinner5

Geezis, dude. You just tried to discredit capitalism by pointing out that the left insisted on blowing out the public debt. Weak. Look at the whole dollar receipts in tax revenue under supply-side economics. Revenue goes way up. If only the socialists had the willpower to refrain from blowing it all because they run up debt as they anticipate the very rosiest of economic forecasts to transpire, maybe we wouldn’t be in our current predicament.

The_Baffler

BAWWWWWWWWW

DeepCough

Pfft. Reagan discredited Capitalism before I was born.

Brentskinner5

God, man. That’s all you have?

DeepCough

Oh, you want more? Okay, you asked for it.

You conservative, right-wingers treat Capitalism like it’s a religion, and you take it on a basis of faith that the free markets will somehow solve themselves, because the profit motive will dictate the solution. And if you actually READ my comment, then you would have understood that Capitalism DOES NOT WORK when industries do not abide by the concepts of supply and demand, two concepts that I would not call “mutually exclusive,” because for one to exclude another causes the system to fall apart. And it is that reasoning which shows why supply-side economics CANNOT work, because every equation must balance itself out, otherwise, it ceases to be an equation. Also, where the fucking fuck do you get the idea that the Leftists caused the current recession? Don’t you think it just a tad strange that the U.S. encountered TWO recessions 20 years apart, both of which occurred under Republican administrations, which preached FISCAL responsibility? Maybe if the GOP were actually conservative, they would cut the defense budget like they did in the 90’s, which was the only reason why the economy was halfway decent under Clinton. Now, get your head outta your ass, turn the fucking Faux News channel off, learn some basic goddamn arithmetic, and then you come back and talk with us “hardcore” Disinfonauts, you stupid cunt.

Tuna Ghost

I’m not sure he discredited “capitalism”, but he sure as hell didn’t let it operate under the proper conditions. He interferred quite a bit, especially in regard to the auto industry (huge taxes on imports coming from Japan to protect American auto companies). Capitalism works best when people actually keep to the principles that allow it to work–something many conservatives these days are prone to ignore.

stevieb

You’re on the wrong team. Capitalism needs to be heavily regulated. Like it was before the rich decided to turn it into a power grab probably in the late 70’s early 80’s.

Are you a ‘free-market’ capitalist?

Tuna Ghost

what exactly are you referring to when you say “socialism”?

Brentskinner5

You are clever. This is not an either-or equation. I think you know that, yet typed your comment so as to set a trap.

Wealth and labor are co-dependent. A century ago, wealth mistreated labor. Today, labor mistreats wealth just as much as wealth mistreats labor, and in many instances, even when wealth does not mistreat labor.

Until labor realizes and acknowledges this, we’ll continue to see silly one-way arguments like yours, and labor will continue to suck the wealth until there is none left.

Brentskinner5

So it trickles down first. Sure, as you say, it does trickle up. But where is it CREATED? I guess that’s my point, and forgive me for being unclear. Wealth created by fiat, is never legitimate wealth, and so, unless these people first have jobs created by wealth, they’ll have no money with which to buy.

I want to focus on something Redtwstr said, below, as I believe you’ll find it interesting:

The entrepreneur is just better than the typical laborer at creating value — at creating the perception of value…at SELLING the idea. This skill of his or hers then attracts capital in those who agree about in the idea’s value. This, in turn, provides the money for which to employ laborers who — yes — are integral to the carrying out of a project. The very best entrepreneurs respect this fact and treat their laborers well, and it’s understandable when labor complains for mistreatment. It’s also wrong to go into the entrepreneur-laborer relationship presuming mistreatment before it happens and thus laying the groundwork by which the entrepreneur no longer sees the point in selling his or her ideas to attract capital. Where are the laborers then? They rather vainly presume that they themselves have the intellectual and whatever else wherewithal to do what the entrepreneur did; they do not.Much of this seems unfair to the laborer, but then we get into the whole quandary of quantifying fair vs. unfair — impossible, in my opinion. There is no fair, only do. Maybe Yoda would say that. Maybe it’s nihilistic. But the entrepreneur does better at what he or she does than does the laborer. The silver lining in our society is that anyone with the ability may become an entrepreneur. Not all have the ability, and to assume otherwise is folly.

Brentskinner5

I don’t watch TV. It’s all garbage. You give no examples to back up your statements. I suppose that you have a degree in business administration and know better. Really, I don’t care. I’ve been busy working all day, creating value and persuading others of the value of what I create.

Brentskinner5

Thank you, drewt333! I was beginning to think I was the only reasonable person commenting here!

And no laborer, if given the money and power, would ever screw someone over? You’re fighting human nature. And you embrace rather simplistic if-then logic, presuming that “if this guy says the rich are good with money, then he must believe it’s OK to screw people over.” And you’re wrong. Should we have regulations? Yes — rational, reasonable measures premised not on the emotional class warfare you (consciously or unconsciously) promote, but instead, on dispassionate observations of what works and what doesn’t. For instance, we KNOW that raising taxes does not improve the economy or lead to more revenue. It doesn’t matter if it seems “fair” or not. Static analysis of tax revenue is flawed. Here, we put one in the “w” column for the right wing. They’re correct, and the left is wrong.

Brentskinner5

Right, and whatever they’re doing in Europe presently isn’t at all discredited, right? What is it that they’re doing, again? Oh, right, SOCIALISM.

Brentskinner5

Geezis, dude. You just tried to discredit capitalism by pointing out that the left insisted on blowing out the public debt. Weak. Look at the whole dollar receipts in tax revenue under supply-side economics. Revenue goes way up. If only the socialists had the willpower to refrain from blowing it all because they run up debt as they anticipate the very rosiest of economic forecasts to transpire, maybe we wouldn’t be in our current predicament.

Brentskinner5

New tone.

Brentskinner5

Most right-wingers are too busier having more intelligent conversations at other websites. I hold my nose every time I come here. I don’t even know why I bother. You folks are the hardest of the hardcore. You’re the kind of people who probably would have agreed with Stalin. Just sayin’.

Brentskinner5

*are busier

Anonymous

BAWWWWWWWWW

Anonymous

All of you pundits and partisan people are worthless. Seriously, you think typing some opinions into a text box is going to bring change? I challenge anyone to skip work tomorrow morning and picket your municipality, county chamber, state capitol, or the actual U.S. Capitol or call your local representative and address the blatant plutocracy invading this world today. (I can because I’m currently unemployed despite my “academic pedigree” at the low cost of 30k+ give or take accumulating interest–and hence my screen name.)

*Gets up. Goes on a boat. Sails to a remote island. Waits for the mother ship. Experiences a probe realizing that life itself is just a bogus ride.*

Humans have an extremely long way to go to achieve enlightenment. Either that or this is all an intentional vicious cycle.

StillAtMyMoms

All of you pundits and partisan people are worthless. Seriously, you think typing some opinions into a text box is going to bring change? I challenge anyone to skip work tomorrow morning and picket your municipality, county chamber, state capitol, or the actual U.S. Capitol or call your local representative and address the blatant plutocracy invading this world today. (I can because I’m currently unemployed despite my “academic pedigree” at the low cost of 30k+ give or take accumulating interest–and hence my screen name.)

*Gets up. Goes on a boat. Sails to a remote island. Waits for the mother ship. Experiences a probe realizing that life itself is just a bogus ride.*

Humans have an extremely long way to go to achieve enlightenment. Either that or this is all an intentional vicious cycle.

Mr Willow

Yes, and the majority of Europe is both happier and better off than two-thirds of the US.

Hadrian999

did you expect otherwise? the political system is fueled by corporate money, staged on corporate media,
no person that actually opposes the plans of the corporate nobility will ever reach a serious level of power.

Anonymous

“Persuading” being the operative word, since it doesn’t sound like you really understand what value is.

As to the documentation: open a book on basic economics. “the shock doctrine” is a good start since klein’s style is very accessible and none too fraught with big numbers.

My economics background, was an econ 101 course (ECO100y to be specific) as an undergrad. It took no great intellect to understand the basics….

Mr Willow

I hold my nose every time I come here. I don’t even know why I bother.
Then stop bothering.

You folks are the hardest of the hardcore.

Have you been to www.alternet.org/?

Mr Willow

I hold my nose every time I come here. I don’t even know why I bother.
Then stop bothering.

You folks are the hardest of the hardcore.

Have you been to www.alternet.org/?

Anonymous

Not really, but I had a shred of optimism mostly because he’s a black man. I foolishly thought he might have a shred of decency considering what his ancestors have and are going through. Silly me….

I’m a fool for “change” I guess.

Anonymous

Intelligence from the right wing!?! LMFAO.

You’re a master of hyperbole, jest and irony!

I’ve never seen a pop’n of people with such a distaste for history, humanism, logic, intellect, the arts, the sciences, and philosophy (political, spiritual and epistemological).

Uh Stalin?

No.

He was most certainly not a progressive, nor an icon of progressivism.

Che, on the other hand. I could be okay with him.

Chomsky, being my own personal preference.

Anonymous

Loving the the shout out to alter.

Nice to see you on this side of the tracks!

Anonymous

Loving the the shout out to alter.

Nice to see you on this side of the tracks!

Anonymous

“Human Nature”

you REALLY mean a randian capitalist sociopathy.

Humanism- it’s a good thing.

Anonymous

Just as a note for future reference and general knowledge-

the practice of neo-liberal economics (aka the art of screwing the people royally)

has nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with socialism.

And that my fine right-wing friend, is the present state of european economics.

Although the europeans, bless them, have the good and sound mind to shut off the bloody tele, and march against hypocrisy and injustice.

Anonymous

You’ll be broken under the same lash as us, so whats with the self righteous pretensions? Or can you tea partiers not make it through a day without a screaming hissy fit?

Anonymous

Left wing. Right wing. Chicken wing. All lame with almost no meat.

Anonymous

Ditto bitch

E.B. Wolf

That argument would have been more compelling if you had made it 50 years ago. But since then, labor’s relative income has stagnated even while their production has risen drastically. There is simply no disputing this fact without a willful denial of mathematics.

Wealth’s wealth has exploded in that same time. Corporate profits are at record highs virtually year after year. The really wealthy have not possessed a greater share of the total wealth of the nation in a century.

So who is mistreating who? How can you seriously say that “labor will continue to suck the wealth until there is none left,” when the wealth is indisputably flowing the other way?

Mr Willow

Chomsky, being my own personal preference.

Yes!

Mr Willow

Nor do I. He recognises the issue, that’s why he won the presidency; because he identified a whole host of real issues during the campaign.

He simply has no intention of fixing the issue.

DeepCough

Pfft. Reagan discredited Capitalism before I was born.

DeepCough

Pfft. Reagan discredited Capitalism before I was born.

Hadrian999

honestly the only thing i can think of that would cause real change is if a majority of americans disavow the sham democracy political system and a real general strike across all types of labor shut down the country, unless this happens the masters can continue to play group against group to maintain the status quo .

Anonymous

I agree. A tax revolt would have a similar effect.

I was watching a show on PBS about the end of the USSR. It was from the perspective of a few of their citizens. It really was remarkable the parallels between what was happening there and what is happening here and now -at least in the way it was described by the people who lived it.
Who knows what may happen when a system can’t support it’s citizens. When things were at their worst and people were out in the streets, the military was called in to restore order in Moscow, but after some tense hours the military stood down and joined with the crowd. The change was remarkably peaceful, all things considered.

We think that the USA is somehow eternal sometimes. Dare I sound like a tea bagger but our America as we knew it is already disintegrating. It barely resembles it’s former ideals in theory, much less practice.

Do you think our military is mindless enough to turn on civilians here on a large scale? If that happens, all is lost don’t you think?

Anonymous

A troll must leave his cave once in a while to fling boogers at the passing travelers.
Brent is just here to stir up shit. It makes him feel brave. Put him in a dress and he’ll be Ann Coulter.

He’s just a poopie head…..lol

Hadrian999

the last few months i was in the army my unit was on rotation as a quick reaction force for domestic protest suppression, i don’t know if soldiers would actually attack protesting civilians if ordered but the plans and training are already there, i think it would mostly depend on how secure their paychecks were and if it were isolated or wide spread, if it were a localized protest i believe the military would attack civilians if ordered.

KxBk6U

Bruce Dickinsin — Iron Maiden — Road to Hell

Brentskinner5

Um, yeah…I fear you still haven’t grasped it. It’s one thing to create something of value; it’s quite another to persuade others of that thing’s value. It sounds like you misunderstand the nuances of perceived vs. actual value. Most of the time, the two intersect, but not always.

Brentskinner5

E.B., you are arguing, essentially, that labor is worth more than the value the market has given it. You argue this because you see that value as unfair. But it just is what it is.

One thing that struck me regarding this article was the very premise that today’s economic environment — assuming that it indeed reflects those ideas implemented 30-ish years ago — has led organizations to invest in equipment and other such upgrades rather than to pay labor more. The conclusion this writer makes is that this is bad; labor loses out, and we get economic misery.

What ignorance! Who makes all that equipment? Fairies? PEOPLE DO. We more and more KINDS of jobs. This is a good thing.

Brentskinner5

Your point? Sure, humanism can be a good thing, or just a thing. Is it sociopathy? Maybe. But what do you call the vanity of the few in their collective belief that they in fact know better than all the masses, who they label sociopathic, en masse? What’s that? Hmm…maybe Marxist narcissism? Your mistake is, as one human being, to attempt to qualify randian capitalism as bad (i.e. sociopathic). But the perspective of one human being is exceedingly narrow.

Brentskinner5

Your point? Sure, humanism can be a good thing, or just a thing. Is it sociopathy? Maybe. But what do you call the vanity of the few in their collective belief that they in fact know better than all the masses, who they label sociopathic, en masse? What’s that? Hmm…maybe Marxist narcissism? Your mistake is, as one human being, to attempt to qualify randian capitalism as bad (i.e. sociopathic). But the perspective of one human being is exceedingly narrow.

Brentskinner5

I’m sorry life has yielded you lemons, Jin_TheNinja. Some people have trouble getting beyond the resentment of that and, instead, embrace socialism.

Brentskinner5

I’m sorry life has yielded you lemons, Jin_TheNinja. Some people have trouble getting beyond the resentment of that and, instead, embrace socialism.

Brentskinner5

That’s a sweeping statement. And it ignores the massive debt crisis the EU faces.

Brentskinner5

Geezis, man. Talk about PROJECTION. Who’s throwing the collective, masturbatory hissy fit? This site’s self-righteous left wingers and whatever the hell else-ers. It’s laughable. Perhaps if you approached tea partiers with the intention of trying to find common ground, rather than with the intention of trying to refute those “effing a-hole, racist, tea-bagging, irrational hissy fitters” (and thus prove MSNBC’s contrived hypothesis correct), we’d actually get somewhere.

Brentskinner5

OK, so explain to us all, Mr./Ms. “I Took Econ 101, So I Know Everything about Economics,” how the EU’s models of massive government involvement in everyday life is not socialism, and is in fact neo-liberal economics. And, furthermore, if it is indeed neo-liberal economics, please explain to us what perfect world we would need to construct so that a massive effort to implement “true” socialism would not actually, and every time and necessarily, yield us neo-liberal economics, instead.

Brentskinner5

*are not examples of socialism

Brentskinner5

God, man. That’s all you have?

Brentskinner5

How mature and enlightened of you. I’m so sorry to have invaded your stupid little online fiefdom of group left-think with ideas you folks don’t seem to like. It’s no wonder we can’t get anywhere. We have a bunch of immature crybabies with the vote. Very little skin in the game, nary an understanding of how the game best functions, but all the right to change the game’s rules.

You know, the illusion that we still live in free markets causes us to fight each other. Free markets are long gone. It is our MASSIVE federal government — and the power-hungry Marxist narcissists who aspire to take its reigns — who lead us to economic ruin.

Brentskinner5

Ah, yes, the enlightened one with all the answers. You assume so much. And when you reach the limits of your capacity to understand, you resort to the “end” of your thinking, which tells you anyone who adheres to the right wing or left wing or whatever is somehow the intellectually barren one.

Brentskinner5

You’re about 15 years behind me in your thinking, dude. I liked Chomsky. …until I realized he was a joke. As for Che, I guess you’re OK with mass murderers. Don’t give me that crap about the mafia in Cuba. Che was a mass murderer because he liked to be one. And you respect that. And what about Stalin, hmm? Whether it what you really want or not, Stalin is what you get when you embrace progressive ideals, because the tenets of progressivism necessitate that you control others on a massive scale.

Brentskinner5

I come here because it’s my civic duty to rain truth on dumbasses.

Brentskinner5

LOL…good one, man! It’s too bad that only people here sharing good, sane ideas are labeled trolls. You’re much further gone than I thought.

Hadrian999

out of curiosity, a question for a man as wise as yourself slumming this cesspit of loathsome reds,
If the conservative mantra is less spending less government and more freedom why do we see the size, scope, and cost of government skyrocket under conservative as well as liberal leadership?

no. its called neo-liberalism and it’s nearly the same as the U.S.. good lord man.

btw what does ‘socialism’ mean to you?

Anonymous

I don’t think raising taxes is necessary, I just think the government should do the whole thing over and make it more simple. I also believe that corporations should be penalized for not paying their share, just as you or I would if we don’t pay our taxes. This is what I’m talking about when I say that they screw people over, it’s not an emotional argument, it’s a real one. Let’s just look at Halliburton. Look at what they charge the US govt for doing one load of laundry over there in Iraq. What about the supposed “clean” water they supply the troops with? I agree, rational measures are needed. The entire taxes argument is misleading anyway, so no, the W does not go into the right’s column. Nice try though. We know what doesn’t work, and that’s the economic policies of America. It may look like it’s “working” but it’s clearly hurting more folks than its helping and if you try to compare the US to say, Cuba, or Greece, you’d be making a bullshit argument.

DeepCough

Oh, you want more? Okay, you asked for it.

You conservative, right-wingers treat Capitalism like it’s a religion, and you take it on a basis of faith that the free markets will somehow solve themselves, because the profit motive will dictate the solution. And if you actually READ my comment, then you would have understood that Capitalism DOES NOT WORK when industries do not abide by the concepts of supply and demand, two concepts that I would not call “mutually exclusive,” because for one to exclude another causes the system to fall apart. And it is that reasoning which shows why supply-side economics CANNOT work, because every equation must balance itself out, otherwise, it ceases to be an equation. Also, where the fucking fuck do you get the idea that the Leftists caused the current recession? Don’t you think it just a tad strange that the U.S. encountered TWO recessions 20 years apart, both of which occurred under Republican administrations, which preached FISCAL responsibility? Maybe if the GOP were actually conservative, they would cut the defense budget like they did in the 90’s, which was the only reason why the economy was halfway decent under Clinton. Now, get your head outta your ass, turn the fucking Faux News channel off, learn some basic goddamn arithmetic, and then you come back and talk with us “hardcore” Disinfonauts, you stupid cunt.

stevieb

You’re on the wrong team. Capitalism needs to be heavily regulated. Like it was before the rich decided to turn it into a power grab probably in the late 70’s early 80’s.

Are you a ‘free-market’ capitalist?

stevieb

“Of course, saying that flat out would alienate some voters, I imagine.”

Great post – but I’d disagree with the implication of that comment. Yes it would alienate ‘some’ voters – the rich capitalists – but I’m sure if it was explained as you just did I’m sure it would be a very positive reaction…
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stevieb

When does it trickle up? How do you think people get rich Brent?

stevieb

“Artificial constraints and external manipulation”. Stats don’t constrain or manipulate markets. Policies can and do – but the reasons can be debated.

‘Wealth moves to markets where value can be assessed and aqreed upon by all actors involved.”

I think the history of capital flight demonstrates clearly that it isn’t necessary to have consensus. The U.S military ensures that it capital needs a home, the gun will make sure it gets there…

E.B. Wolf

What I’m arguing is that you’re premise in the comment I responded to is full of shit; which you conveniently failed to acknowledge in your response.

As to whether investment in equipment made by people is a good thing. Of course it is-for China and other foreign countries where the jobs are being created.

If there had not been a rush to sign “free trade” agreements to export all those jobs to the slums of the Earth. So no, we don’t have more jobs created here.
If the equipment was made here, you would be correct. But as it stands, Business are encouraged to commit economic treason to squeeze out a few more dollars in profit at the expense of the people of their own nation.

E.B. Wolf

They have in the past. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

But i doubt any localized protest would require the actual military to crush by force. Our militarized police would be more than capable of doing the job; and most of them would be happy to do it.

E.B. Wolf

They have in the past. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

But i doubt any localized protest would require the actual military to crush by force. Our militarized police would be more than capable of doing the job; and most of them would be happy to do it.

Anonymous

If you hate fascism why are you so obviously suckered into it? Who do you think told you that the Zionists are so bad? Guess what, a bunch of Islamo-fascists and their puppet groups. I guess we should accept their story without any criticism whatsoever, at least if you’re not a “Zionist hack”… It’s amazing what people will believe.

Anonymous

What a bizarre reply.

Europe isn’t a single country btw.. it’s split into many individual nation states, each with their own democratically elected government – some left, some right wing. If you mean the EU, then it still falls wide of the mark to descibe it as ‘socialist’, sorry ‘SOCIALIST’, because socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are publicly owned. What means of production do the EU own, exactly?

I think you have a chip on your shoulder and you imagined that I was in some way saying that ‘Europe is good and America is bad’, whereas in fact I attacked one tiny little aspect of American economic philosophy that is believed only by a minority. This is commonly known as building a straw man.

You probably belong to that rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth American brigade who imagine that any criticism of any aspect of America, its culture or its philosophies, is like some dreadful personal attack on their sacred, perfect and superior nation.

Anonymous

“Who’s throwing the collective, masturbatory hissy fit?”

You.

Anonymous

Ok Brent. You speak an awful lot about the market, left wing and right wing, but you speak little of people in general. As you inferred people make it all “work”. People get jobs to build the machines that put others out of work for instance. Great, automation is wonderful, seriously. What are machines for anyway? What are they there to serve -really? My guess is PEOPLE. People are why it all exists. People need things to live.
There is no frontier left. We can’t move to the wilderness and live off the land. We’re all stuck here more or less with few alternatives to speak of.Then there’s the “labor market”, ya know, all those PEOPLE with “very little skin in the game”. You’re right the free market is dead, assuming of course that it ever actually lived. “Clever” people who understand the game are what it’s all about? Those same clever folks who don’t do much at all but leverage the system, employ armies of lawyers, file and produce endless laws and policies designed to apply pressure and squeeze the lemons -oblivious to the fact that those lemons are people and the juice is their blood. Watch it trickle down. Pretty ain’t it?

Frankly, I don’t give a crap about left -right politics or socialism or any other divisive and vague label you want to cast around like a fishing lure. They’re only abstractions and distractions. People need to come first, that’s the reality. Without people all those systems and excuses for greed and slavery are irrelevant.
This is not civilization, it’s a human cattle farm that you defend with such ignorant zeal.

I can’t even tell what it is you support Brent or what it is you are trying to prove to us left wingers and socialists as you would characterize us. What is your philosophy here? Really, what is it?
How about some real answers or ideas Brent. We’re sick of gnawing on your meatless chicken wing.

Personally, I’ve been working nearly thirty years, I paid my taxes etc.
Now I can’t even seem to land a job at McDonald’s let alone the field I was in. I can’t afford to retrain. I want to work, this is not fun for me or anyone else. I want to contribute and be of some use to myself and fellows.
Don’t assume we’re all looking for handouts alone.
Do you have a job? Would you like to keep it? Would you like to continue to have food and shelter?
That’s what we all want. That’s what we all need. PEOPLE Brent. Just people, no matter what idiotic label we all choose to wear.

You came to make war with all the PEOPLE on this site and you don’t even know who or what you are fighting. You just repeat all the “right wing” prattle and rhetoric, insisting we’re all just bums and sycophants, hovering like a fucking vulture, waiting for some scraps to feed and harp on.

It’s a fucking Joke.

E.B. Wolf

You know who else was big on civic duty?
Stalin: http://radicaljournal.com/essays/speech_at_celebration_meeti_4.html

Congratulations! You’re dirty commie socialist too.

http://drewt333.tumblr.com/ drewt333

You’re welcome.

stevieb

I’m afraid you need to look at yourself and what you support and why. We should read very carefully, consider a number of different sources to compare and contrast, and apply what we learn to our value systems. We should, as many of us do, recognize that our media is compromised by ownership issues and issues of political control in western nations, and various respected academics have demonstrated the right-wing propaganda that has become the mainstream in America – destroyed by media concentration, and oligarchy bordering on monopoly that really has no place in a democratic nation….

I’m quite confident that Islam has absolutely nothing to do with our current problems. And when some moron on a message board tries to tell me that it is, I know that he/she is a part of that problem.

Zionists are indoctrinated at such a young age these days with all of these paid trips to Israel to get young American, British, Canadian Jews to love another country – fanatically, above all else. To love an idea – mostly myth – so much they can ignore the fact that they are destroying another people who actually have lived there for thousands of years.

That’s going to be a problem when these types of people get important positions of power. A big problem when – as one example – they comprise up to 40% of of the entire U.S government….

stevieb

….”up to 40% of the major federal positions.” I should add…

If this is true, is that a bigoted position? Or is it a rational position to be very concerned about religious fanatics(which I think is borne about by a careful reading of the evidence)having positions of power in a political system based on access to money – up for sale,(essentially, as I see contemporary western politics).??

Even if you support it, which you obviously do, it’s very easy to recognize this reality if one is honest.

http://drewt333.tumblr.com/ drewt333

True! Political agendas constrain and manipulate markets with obfuscation, distraction, misrepresentation (‘lies’ to you and me) and coercion (‘the gun’). The aim is social control, not wealth creation. Control is the ‘wealth’ of the political class.
Human wealth is the creation of human ingenuity and effort combined with capital. A ‘market’ enclosed by external agendas and coercion is slave labor.

Anonymous

The only thing you’ve added is the age old fear of the Jew. Never mind that most Jews aren’t religious and don’t have any central authority making them hold the same views or do the same things or that I see way more Jews working seriously on peace than I do Muslims. Never mind that the Saudi government is spending their billions in oil money in America on a concerted effort to indoctrinate us into holding their views and ignoring everything the Arab world does. And never mind that nearly every president and department of state have been buddy buddy with the Saudis going way back. The number one concern is the Jew. Oops or did you mean Zionist there, you use them so interchangeably that it becomes obvious what you mean. That’s the lack of honesty we’re concerned about. The fact that people drink the cool-aid and believe in the conspiracies that they’re told to while ignoring the very real ones as they manipulate people all over the world. The message of a billion Muslims is that somehow, 14 million Jews worldwide (half of them located in one country) is the cause of all the evil in the world. Yeah, I’ll believe them, no way they’re lying about anything. They’re totally honest with no ulterior motives, not even the ones they claim they have.
Unless you solely watch fox news, the vast majority of the media leans strongly left. Please alert me as to how MSNBC or CNN or NPR, etc are at all tools of the right wing conspiracy?

Mr Willow

Really? Because all I’ve seen are conservative talking points and general idiocy.

Mr Willow

Whether it what you really want or not, Stalin is what you get when you embrace progressive ideals, because the tenets of progressivism necessitate that you control others on a massive scale.

Malarkey.

Stalin is an example of totalitarian authoritarianism. He did not care about the well-being of his citizens, only the country. Authoritarianism only cares about what its name implies: its own authority; its own perceived image. Stalin used the people to improve the outward æsthetics of the state–employing slave labour to further his own selfish ends–in a “progressive” system, the people are the state, and therefore would never be subjected to such cruelty.

Which, you know, sounds an awful lot like what the Founding Fathers were trying to build: A government of the people, by the people, for the people. The People are the Government, so rather than have this conservative mentality concerning the government of “Watch out for the Government” or “The Government is taking my shit” it should be We the People who dictate which laws are passed and which ones are not.

Sadly, that is not the state of things precisely because of this Crusade of Private Ownership the Republicans are on about. Do not mistake me, I do not mind at all if you own a house, clothes, yard, etc. but it has been taken way too far, so that everything must be owned by one individual or another, in most cases to the detriment of society as a whole. We sell off portions of land and water to oil and gas giants only to have water supplies tainted by chemicals or rendered useless because of toxic sludge and soil depleted of all its worth or the crumbling of mountains. And when some industrial accident does occur the industrialists and capitalists shrug it off unless they begin losing money or are caught in a scandal over it because their actions were exposed.

Remember the head of BP: “I just want my life back!”

Yeah, who gives a shit that he poisoned an entire ecosystem and killed every fishing job from Alabama to Louisiana, he can’t enjoy his yacht races. Despicable.

Or the Massey mine that exploded last year because the company didn’t want to spend its precious money on ventilation. And then when the workers died they were only treated as though they were machinery that had malfunctioned and were disposed of. Their fellow workers weren’t even given time off to attend the funeral.

And of course this drive to own things extends to people as well. More specifically politicians. These are the sorts of people who pay lobbyists to buy our “representatives”? In the end I think capitalism is a poor economic system (at best) because it does not recognise the value of the worker, it does not give people worth.

stevieb

That was kind of cute in it’s complete naivety. I’m guessing you actually believe that which is really a sad thing. If you’re Jewish you would think with knowledge of the Holocaust you would be able to recognize the bigotry you spew about Islam and Arabs – based on mostly lies and hysterical media reports, usually by rabid Zionist Jews. Which is ridiculously easy to find out and confirm. Your comments about the left and Muslims and the media are ridiculous – and again – a snap to find out if one chooses to look it up.

Zionism is to Jews what Nazism was to Germans. And Zionism is actually very antisemetic; it’s definition of ‘the Jewish People’ or sarcastically, when it suits them, “the Joooozz’ – lifted wholesale from Hitler’s regime.

Zionism is a cult that has been forced on global jewry to support it’s fascist colonialist goals, It was a mistake that will probably end up destroying the planet. And these ideas may seem crazy to you – but they will soon be mainstream and uncontroversial – reality has a way with things like that.

BTW being anti-Israel does not necessarily mean anti-Jew, as much as Zionist hacks would love to have people believe that. My family(British) were particularly fond of Germans just after the war. But times change and the German people have mostly redeemed themselves. Zionism will be a disaster ‘for the Jews’, and for Jewish people -and I doubt there’s a happy ending this time.

Speaking against Zionism, is imo, a very important thing for Jew’s to do….

stevieb

“my family WEREN’T fond of Germans…”

And now some of my best friends are German.

Really. I swear…

stevieb

“Most right-wingers are too busier having more intelligent conversations at other websites.”

Is that right? Well waddya know….

stevieb

Well than you better get some training because it’s sure as shit that ‘truth’ ain’t what you’re raining down.

Pun well intended…

Anonymous

Never heard of Zombie Reagan?? Reagan cannot been buried; nor can his policies.

A debt crisis caused by US-american business practice and US-american rating agencies…

Anonymous

I’m spewing bigotry and hate against Arabs? I was merely pointing out facts, facts which Muslims themselves are very proud of and open about. Seriously, why are people so interested in denying the very things which the Arab world is extremely expressive about? It’s obvious they’ve been brainwashed into believing in some fantasy version of the Arab world that doesn’t exist. Have you ever left the country and visited the middle east? Ever? No one there hides what they think. I don’t bother reading most American news, it’s hardly worth while.

It’s obvious you have no idea what the middle east is like for either the Muslims or the Jews and lack any conception of the people or their political governments. It’s ridiculously easy to see how false it is if you would just look. It’s easy to be an armchair critic reading pre-filtered news that plays to your biases. Open your eyes and stop drinking the kool-aid. Use your mind and stop accepting the obvious truth and see what’s really going on.

Anonymous

Yes and thus reveals the slimy and disgusting nature of American Capitalism. I was always told growing up that the French were masters of taking garbage food, dressing it up, and serving it on a silver platter to those looking for “fine” dining. In the same way Americans have become masters of taking trash of one form or another, dressing it up, and serving it up in delectable packaging. I have no taste for fancy French food and I have no taste any longer for American consumerist garbage.

If an entire economy is to be based on how well one can repackage a turd and extract “value” from the sale of said turd…then we might as well let the nukes fly and start the whole damned thing over because we fucking screwed up somewhere along the way. To justify our failing economic system by stating that most people simply are not good at finding ways to scam money off of others is simply asinine. And also for the record, you capitalized (creating) wealth in your original comment, I’m here to tell you that wealth, as a form of energy, cannot be either created or destroyed. It can be extracted, transformed, traded, gifted, swindled, or wasted but it certainly cannot be created! All wealth that exists is a measure of the capacity to “do work” or effect change and if we better understood that we would CREATE change in the world instead of perpetuating an existence where we are expected to sell trinkets to one another for the rest of fucking eternity.

Anonymous

you will embrace the vacuousness of your ideology as ashes in your mouth

Anonymous

dude…anyone who seriously thinks that Marxists are running the show in Washington is fucking stupid, bottom line

Anonymous

Yeah, look what happened to JFK. He wanted to get rid if the Federal Reserve.

Andrew

That’s a nice, simple theory, and there’s some truth to it, but the difference between “wealth” created by government fiat and an entrepreneur’s creation of a perception of “value” is not as great as you seem to think.

Also, don’t dismiss the issue of fairness and then decry taxing the rich to pay for social programs as if it were somehow unfair.

Nuggett

Brent, I read your above comment as follows:

“Yeah rich pplz are bad…maybe? But poor ppl know-it-alls are bad 2. It is what it is ya’ll. One person ain’t Jesus”

Do you qualify the school-yard bully’s habit of stealing peoples’ lunch money as “it is what it is” because sometimes other kids in the class might misbehave as well?? (usually far less reaching)

Here’s a scenario: Little wimpy kid gets lunch money stolen daily from big bully and his cohorts (driven by greed and fear). One day, after a year, kid tries to get even by sneakily stealing back some of the bullies’ money.

Is this morally justifiable? No. BUT, who’s side am I on???? The wimpy kid’s fucking side. It wasn’t fair and there NEEDS to be balance there. You might as well call a spade a spade instead of your mumbling on with your “economics is complicated though” waste of an argument.

Nuggett

Brent, I read your above comment as follows:

“Yeah rich pplz are bad…maybe? But poor ppl know-it-alls are bad 2. It is what it is ya’ll. One person ain’t Jesus”

Do you qualify the school-yard bully’s habit of stealing peoples’ lunch money as “it is what it is” because sometimes other kids in the class might misbehave as well?? (usually far less reaching)

Here’s a scenario: Little wimpy kid gets lunch money stolen daily from big bully and his cohorts (driven by greed and fear). One day, after a year, kid tries to get even by sneakily stealing back some of the bullies’ money.

Is this morally justifiable? No. BUT, who’s side am I on???? The wimpy kid’s fucking side. It wasn’t fair and there NEEDS to be balance there. You might as well call a spade a spade instead of your mumbling on with your “economics is complicated though” waste of an argument.

Nuggett

Brent, I read your above comment as follows:

“Yeah rich pplz are bad…maybe? But poor ppl know-it-alls are bad 2. It is what it is ya’ll. One person ain’t Jesus”

Do you qualify the school-yard bully’s habit of stealing peoples’ lunch money as “it is what it is” because sometimes other kids in the class might misbehave as well?? (usually far less reaching)

Here’s a scenario: Little wimpy kid gets lunch money stolen daily from big bully and his cohorts (driven by greed and fear). One day, after a year, kid tries to get even by sneakily stealing back some of the bullies’ money.

Is this morally justifiable? No. BUT, who’s side am I on???? The wimpy kid’s fucking side. It wasn’t fair and there NEEDS to be balance there. You might as well call a spade a spade instead of your mumbling on with your “economics is complicated though” waste of an argument.

Nuggett

Brent, I read your above comment as follows:

“Yeah rich pplz are bad…maybe? But poor ppl know-it-alls are bad 2. It is what it is ya’ll. One person ain’t Jesus”

Do you qualify the school-yard bully’s habit of stealing peoples’ lunch money as “it is what it is” because sometimes other kids in the class might misbehave as well?? (usually far less reaching)

Here’s a scenario: Little wimpy kid gets lunch money stolen daily from big bully and his cohorts (driven by greed and fear). One day, after a year, kid tries to get even by sneakily stealing back some of the bullies’ money.

Is this morally justifiable? No. BUT, who’s side am I on???? The wimpy kid’s fucking side. It wasn’t fair and there NEEDS to be balance there. You might as well call a spade a spade instead of your mumbling on with your “economics is complicated though” waste of an argument.

Nuggett

Brent, I read your above comment as follows:

“Yeah rich pplz are bad…maybe? But poor ppl know-it-alls are bad 2. It is what it is ya’ll. One person ain’t Jesus”

Do you qualify the school-yard bully’s habit of stealing peoples’ lunch money as “it is what it is” because sometimes other kids in the class might misbehave as well?? (usually far less reaching)

Here’s a scenario: Little wimpy kid gets lunch money stolen daily from big bully and his cohorts (driven by greed and fear). One day, after a year, kid tries to get even by sneakily stealing back some of the bullies’ money.

Is this morally justifiable? No. BUT, who’s side am I on???? The wimpy kid’s fucking side. It wasn’t fair and there NEEDS to be balance there. You might as well call a spade a spade instead of your mumbling on with your “economics is complicated though” waste of an argument.

Nugget

And let me be clear. I’m not even arguing from a moralist’s standpoint. It’s an argument for stability’s sake. If a class of people is degraded to the point of perceiving prolonged serfdom under the authority of a not-so-benevolent ruling class or dictator, they WILL revolt. Check history as my source…

Anonymous

Yes, I do. You mad you didn’t get to blow Hitler? Put a gun to your temple, pull the trigger, and I promise you can.

Anonymous

Yes, I do. You mad you didn’t get to blow Hitler? Put a gun to your temple, pull the trigger, and I promise you can.

Anonymous

Sane? You didn’t just move the goal posts, you threw them off a cliff.

Anonymous

Sane? You didn’t just move the goal posts, you threw them off a cliff.

Tuna Ghost

So given the current climate, or rather the climate of the last couple decades, shouldn’t we factor in that fear and uncertainty and look for a different economic system? I agree supply-side economics can work in a healthy, expanding economy but that is not where we’re we are at the moment. Surely another system must be found, yes?

Tuna Ghost

So what do you make of the fact that corporate profits have been increasing steadily, but wages have remained the same and benefits have shrunk? Is this what you call “labor sucking the wealth”?

Tuna Ghost

Are you going to tackle the comments, or just let us suppose that it’s because you think he’s an extremist right-winger that his comments aren’t factual? That’s an ad hominem, by the way.

Tuna Ghost

Are you going to tackle his comments, or just—oh fuck it nevermind

Tuna Ghost

“Zionism” has long been the code-word for “jews”. If that isn’t the case, tell us who exactly you mean by “zionists”. Any mention of the Protocols will have you laughed at as an ignorant bigot, as that was proven to be a fiction long, long ago.

Tuna Ghost

If you’re Jewish you would think with knowledge of the Holocaust you would be able to recognize the bigotry you spew about Islam and Arabs – based on mostly lies and hysterical media reports, usually by rabid Zionist Jews. Which is ridiculously easy to find out and confirm.
Who’s lying? The Saudis, who openly admit to it? And if its all caused by “rabid Zionist Jews, which is “ridiculously easy to find out and confirm” than it won’t be difficult for you to back up your claims, now will it? Should be a snap. Go right ahead and show us how easy it is.

Tuna Ghost

OH NOES SOCIALISM oh wait that’s just stupid. You had some good points further up the thread, and then promptly discredited yourself with your knee-jerk reaction to perceived socialism. As cakeypig points out, what means of production are owned by the EU? Because some european nations are more left than the US (its hard not to be, these days), its socialism? Or rather, SOCIALISM?

Tuna Ghost

what exactly are you referring to when you say “socialism”?

Tuna Ghost

I’m not sure he discredited “capitalism”, but he sure as hell didn’t let it operate under the proper conditions. He interferred quite a bit, especially in regard to the auto industry (huge taxes on imports coming from Japan to protect American auto companies). Capitalism works best when people actually keep to the principles that allow it to work–something many conservatives these days are prone to ignore.

Tuna Ghost

Not sure what you’re really asking here, but for one a lot of us are Americans and working class. Not to mention American workers are making themselves heard pretty loudly in places like Wisconsin.

Tuna Ghost

Do you really think Marxists are either in control or trying to take control? How on earth does the present state of things lead you to that idea? I’m honestly curious.

Tuna Ghost

Actually, I welcome more right-leaning people to Disinfo, just for the diversity. I agree that in an expanding, healthy economy capitalist supply-side economics could work. But that is not at all where the US is or where the US was. I’m genuinely curious as to why you think it is.

Tuna Ghost

Stalin was a totalitarian authoritarian, not a communist or progressive or any of those things.

Nuggett

“What works and what doesn’t” Doublespeak alert…

The right might have basic econ principles in line that, theoretically applied with responsibility, would strengthen an economy. I won’t deny that. I am not anti-capitalist like so many here. What you need to realize is that right now, the right wing is not right. They are drunk and delirious on wealth. They are addicted and rapacious. They are paranoid and they are anything but dispassionate.

Nuggett

Circle jerk betwixt Brent and drew is laughable. These truths are OBVIOUS. The market is amorphous and rules itself. Ok we get it. You cannot control it. Got it.

This doesn’t justify Brent’s comments on the political right being correct. I’m not advocating anything on strengthening the “market” which is not in ANY way analogous to the “economy”. With QE3 and heavy foreign investing, the market is not anymore American than the EU.

How can you people justify a “market” that CONTROLS the government. Sure, the market doesn’t determine who gets elected. Chya. How do you get into office again? Oh yeah, a shit ton of money. Who lobbies for that? Oh yeah, people with shit tons of money. Who controls media outlets that control public opinion? People with shit tons of money. The consensual market free traders in America control the goverment and its policies.

And now we’re back to your comment on “control is the wealth of the political class”. Ok…and who controls the political class?

Anonymous

What is your problem, Tuna? Brent is a huge troll and you know it. I don’t why you feel the need to defend him.
Speaking of Ad Hominem- so am i to assume all the ignorant remarks Brent said about me should get a free pass because he offers “diversity of opinion”?? frankly, if i wanted that sort diversity of opinion (RIGHT WING FASCISM FYI), i would go post on huffpo or democratic underground. There is a reason i stick to disinfo and alternet.
I have never attacked you personally, nor vehemently disagreed with you about anything. In fact i have liked several of your comments….so WTF??

http://drewt333.tumblr.com/ drewt333

Most people (of any ‘class’) readily surrender their self-control to whoever can adequately manipulate their fears and desires. Whoever ‘controls’ the political class would be making broad promises about delivering votes and getting committee approvals – along with threats of vetoes, obstruction and support for ‘the other guy.’
If you want names and addresses these folks can help:http://www.opensecrets.org/

The Murderer Of Faggots!

You also said it’s good to suck a dick, didn’t you cocksucking faggot!

The Murderer Of Faggots!

You also said it’s good to suck a dick, didn’t you cocksucking faggot!

Nuggett

Ok. I agree with this. My question was hypothetical, and more broadly addressed to Brent, who seems to equate the state of the American economy with the state of Wall Street. And, he then wildly attributes economic success to right wing political ideology. He’s either a shill or very naive.

Tuna Ghost

Don’t take it personally, I have nothing against you. But if we’re going to have a discussion, it has to be a real one–no shortcuts. I find faults with Brents comments, but its not because he’s right-wing.

http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

Trust me…he’s both…every discussion on Disinfo that touches on right wing economics has been marked with his usual stink…and all future ones probably will too.

Some don’t get it. So do. There has never been any motivator for capital to move downwards in the form of investment, hiring, wages, benefits, charitable giving, community projects, etc etc…except high taxes on the wealthy and corporations. High taxes FORCE capital to be invested for some small gain rather than largely lost. Low taxes encourage hoarding and always have. During the preceding century, post Depression…high taxes fueled a surge of investment and growth never before seen in American history…and then we cut the taxes…and predictably the level of investment and growth declined for decades and then crashed after these last rounds of giveaways. We will never again see capital invested in jobs, wages, benefits, charities or foundations/trusts/college grants until we make those outlets tax free havens where money can go without being penalized…and tax hoarding of capital so cruelly that it ceases to be the preferred treatment of wealth.

Nuggett

Your post made me want to listen to Subterranean Homesick Blues.

Hear hear!

http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/FPBFO6RC5R2HHIP3VXSFU2RZQA mjj

This idea never did really work. If you are a business man and don’t want to pay taxes what did you do in the old days? You invested in the business by hiring , improving, and buying for the business to make it better. Now today if you are a businessman and you know you don’t have to pay taxes on profits what do you do? Anything you damn well please including just pocketing the money. Did that sink in? Now do you teabaggers understand?

http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/FPBFO6RC5R2HHIP3VXSFU2RZQA mjj

This idea never did really work. If you are a business man and don’t want to pay taxes what did you do in the old days? You invested in the business by hiring , improving, and buying for the business to make it better. Now today if you are a businessman and you know you don’t have to pay taxes on profits what do you do? Anything you damn well please including just pocketing the money. Did that sink in? Now do you teabaggers understand?