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#1368685 - 02/08/1001:52 PMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
[Re: Elene]

stores
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6651
Loc: Here, as opposed to there

Originally Posted By: Elene

I'd have to look up the particulars, but wasn't the Fantaisie-Impromptu a private commission? In that case it wouldn't be published.

If Chopin did think poorly of this piece, well, he'd be outvoted by millions of fans.

Best wishes for surviving Snowmageddon, everyone. Our weather has been cold and wet here, too, with heavy snow in the nearby mountains but only minor issues where I live.

Elene

There are two theories that I'm aware of. One is that the A section resembles Moscheles' Impromptu in E flat, which Chopin would probably have known. The other (which I believe I read in an interview with Rubinstein) is that Chopin sold the final approved version to the Baroness d'Este and therefore could not publish it. If you take a look, the work is not dedicated to the Baroness. The phrase reads,"Composed for the Baroness." In other words, a commission. Who knows? I liked the piece the first 500 times I heard it.

_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach â€” a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

#1368840 - 02/08/1006:01 PMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
[Re: LisztAddict]

Elene
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1428
Loc: Land of Enchantment

LA, it's amazing what you are accomplishing without being able to practice for long hours regularly. (Actually, it's pretty amazing no matter what.)

And I hope that hearing some Chopin is going to help the shuttle crew get through their mission-- and that they leave the CD for the space station crew. Of course I suppose they all have a good electronic selection of music up there anyway.

#1369221 - 02/09/1004:03 AMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
[Re: Elene]

Elene
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1428
Loc: Land of Enchantment

Come to think of it, Chopin couldn't have thought the Fantaisie-Impromptu was beneath his standards, because if he had, he wouldn't even have given it to the Baronne d'Este, let alone sold it to her. He wouldn't have let it out at all; he would have been too perfectionistic for that.

#1369342 - 02/09/1009:58 AMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
[Re: Elene]

stores
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6651
Loc: Here, as opposed to there

Originally Posted By: Elene

Come to think of it, Chopin couldn't have thought the Fantaisie-Impromptu was beneath his standards, because if he had, he wouldn't even have given it to the Baronne d'Este, let alone sold it to her. He wouldn't have let it out at all; he would have been too perfectionistic for that.

Elene

That's a fair point. He WAS, indeed, a perfectionist, so it makes you wonder, even more, why he asked for it to be destroyed after his death.

_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach â€” a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

#1369501 - 02/09/1001:43 PMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
[Re: stores]

Elene
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1428
Loc: Land of Enchantment

Remember, there was more than one version of the Fantaisie-Impromptu. The one Fontana based his edition on was not the one the Baroness had. Apparently the one in the lady's possession was the one the composer approved of.

Maurice Hinson has this to say in Chopin: Piano Music Inspired by Women in His Life (I know, silly title):

"Chopin's friend and copyist Julian Fontana brought out his own version of this piece in 1855, six years after Chopin's death, even after Chopin had specifically requested that the work not be published posthumously. The Fontana version varies considerably from Chopin's 1835 version used in this collection."

(While Hinson is a careful editor, he has been known to get biographical facts wrong. However, as far as I know this is correct overall.)

#1369602 - 02/09/1003:57 PMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
[Re: Elene]

stores
6000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6651
Loc: Here, as opposed to there

Originally Posted By: Elene

Remember, there was more than one version of the Fantaisie-Impromptu. The one Fontana based his edition on was not the one the Baroness had. Apparently the one in the lady's possession was the one the composer approved of.

Maurice Hinson has this to say in Chopin: Piano Music Inspired by Women in His Life (I know, silly title):

"Chopin's friend and copyist Julian Fontana brought out his own version of this piece in 1855, six years after Chopin's death, even after Chopin had specifically requested that the work not be published posthumously. The Fontana version varies considerably from Chopin's 1835 version used in this collection."

(While Hinson is a careful editor, he has been known to get biographical facts wrong. However, as far as I know this is correct overall.)

Elene

I knew that there was more than one version, but I've never read that from Hinson. If I remember correctly, the Fontana version was one that Chopin had reworked (after he'd written the 1835 version). A lot of Chopin manuscripts bear little pedal indication, though I understand him calling it a "blueprint". I wonder if Chopin's request to not have it published after his death, was, because he'd written it "for" d'Este, and wanted her to be able to continue to feel a sense of "ownership". I think, clearly, it wasn't all that important to Chopin, whether the work made it's way into "circulation". Very interesting questions really. It's a shame I rather tired of hearing the piece after roughly the thousandth time. I've always wanted to scream, "HELLOOOOOOO he wrote a TON of other music too!!!!!"

_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach â€” a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

I've been playing this masterpiece for about a month now. It has proven to be more difficult than I thought(what a suprise! :)). However, I've progressed pretty well. I manage to play the beginning quite well, but the chapter before the waltz part is relavitely hard. I have not even tried the 35-note run in the ending part, but I'm doing scales everyday so I am quite confident I'll manage to play it whenever I start to really focus on playing that part. Anyway, I'm havin fun time learning the Nocturne.

That's all for now.

Update:

Sigh.. I'm such a slow learner. I started to learn the C#mol Nocturne (posth.) two months ago. I feel like I have not progressed fast enough. At the same time I know i'm much better than I was a month ago. I've been playing the Nocturne like 30mins every day. Managing all the trioles, specially in the longer runs is hard to combine with the left hand arpeggios.

I think I'll need a few months more in order to play it more decently. Well I guess I can be proud of myself. After all, 14 months ago I did not even know how to play the C-scale.

I'm done. I can play the piece now. It took me a bit more than three months to get it to a satisfying level. The only part is the 35-note run in the ending, that i will practise more. Unbeliavable feeling... I never thought this would be possible, I was struggling at times, but yesterday I played the whole Nocturne fluently.

I guess it's time to start looking for a new piece to learn... any suggestions?

Congratulations, Curious223!I don't think you're a 'slow learner' at all! Isn't it a great feeling when it finally all comes together? Of course it's possible.As for new pieces- hard to make concrete suggestions- I would suggest you first listen to as much music as possible, then decide what grabs you (and what sounds feasible).In the 'easier Chopin' category, if that's what you were thinking of, there's the posthumous waltz in A minor and Nocturne op. 72, plus a few of the preludes..

It took me much longer to learn that nocturne, but then I wasn't as consistent as you when it came to practicing everyday. I'm still working on that run and will probably be for a few more weeks (I hope).

Listen to some of the mazurkas. There are many at the 6 level and they are really quite lovely, rich in melody. Although it is listed as a 7, I love the Op. 17, #4 mazurka. It is a favorite of many for good reason. And if you have conquered the nocturne, it shouldn't be too difficult for you. The mid-section (the dance-like part) can prove to be challenging and a good exercise in stretching your fingers.

Here is Horowitz's version. Not quite the way I play it (ha). I take it a bit slower to bring out the nuances.

We had an earthquake in our area very early this morning. A 4.3 on the scale and the center was about 30 miles away from our home (northern central Illinois). I woke at 4 this morning but didn't know why. People were reporting shaking beds, pictures falling from the walls and dishes crashing to the floor. No injuries or major damage. So lucky. My heart and prayers continue for the people of Haiti.

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Congrats Curious223! Doesn't it feel great to have that accomplishment under your belt? I second Kathleen's suggestion of the Mazurkas (if you were looking for another Chopin piece). There are many to choose from (about 58? I think) and they're delightful in character. You can really have fun with dynamics and the dance lilt. Listen to some on youtube, and peruse the scores on IMSLP to find something that appeals to you.

Kathleen, what a shock to hear about an earthquake in Illinois. Thank goodness it didn't cause any injuries or major damage, but what a scare! As for us in the Northeast, we're dealing with our third major storm in one week - snow, sleet, winter mess. Schools are closed, we're unable to leave the house. It sounds like a good day to do some recording!

I commiserate with you all in the Northeast, and I should have mentioned all the troubles you are having there. A real nightmare. So many people without power, no heat and/or no electricity. Even the national goverment appears to be closed. This has to be a first, I believe. And some people are going through this for days. We are also having lots and lots of snow, but we are more used to it, I think, than people in the Northeast. I know the kids are happy, but their parents are probably not so. This also with the west Coast and their mud slides. It would appear that Mother Nature is showing us just how powerful the "weaker sex" is, lest we forget. No danger of that.

Kathleen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Fortunately we have power, heat, and electricity. Being housebound for a couple of days is a minor inconvenience compared to earthquakes, mudslides, and loss of power. In a way, it's actually a blessing to have this downtime, a forced respite from the demands of everyday life. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade, and when Mother Nature gives you sleet, practice!

It is nice to play an instrument that predates the invention of electricity. Of course, I suppose most wind and stringed instruments do; and some of the percussion family.

The noon news is saying 3.8, which does make a difference since the scale is logarithmic. Still, if you're on top of it, it can buck and rumble pretty good.

Out here, we get used to precautions such as keeping gas in the car, keeping food, water, medications enough for at least four days or a week. Cigs; if you smoke, it's a very bad time to run out. And I noticed that the bars did a very good business--- by candlelight, of course; many with no glass in the windows... but they had customers.

Statistically it's unlikely (and anyway only known in hindsight), but it's possible that one temblor can be a pre-shock for another and possibly greater one. So having some groceries and drinking water on hand can't hurt anything. And some candles, so you can see your sheet music.

Can any of you wise folk give me the dope on the C# minor Mazurka, Op. 30. No. 4? My Brown says it was sketched earlier than 1836. Anybody know how much and when?

Dear keyboardklutz,

Brown was, shall we say, "liberally extrapolating" from the only notice we have of such a sketch ever existing (in the preface of Hermann Scholtz's old Peters Leipzig edition). Scholtz doesn't appear to have said anything about the date of the sketch.

All of this is to say that Brown, in this instance (and I'm afraid, rather more generally), is not the most reliable source for the dating of Chopin's music.

#1370723 - 02/11/1003:07 AMRe: Just for those totally devoted to Chopin
[Re: keyboardklutz]

Elene
1000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 1428
Loc: Land of Enchantment

Just how unusual is an earthquake in Illinois?? I didn't realize the New Madrid fault went that far. I hope this doesn't presage a big one in the Midwest, which is supposed to happen at some point, right? The last time there was one the area wasn't heavily populated, but it sure is now.

Uh, not to be scary or anything.

We know that global warming means lots of weird weather, and it looks like there's plenty of it. Skiiing down the steps of the Lincoln Memorial qualifies as weird, I think, and I heard that someone did that the other day.

We should have good weather, except for a lot of wind, for the MTNA conference in late March in Albuquerque. The first day is going to be entirely devoted to Chopin. Alan Walker is going to speak. I am wondering if I should cough up a couple of hundred bucks to attend for just that day; I don't know what to expect of it. There are also concerts one can attend for free.

I've just finished posting a lengthy piece summarizing the role of the Chopin voice in the Leslie Flint phenomenon, which follows some more general information about direct-voice mediumship, on my blog. (Mary-Rose and Dr. Jeff, please bear with me, I have good reasons for doing this.) You may also be interested in the entry "New Year's Eve with Fryc." I will have something fun to post on Valentine's Day as well.

If you want to read this material, it may be clearer if you read my very first entry, "Developing Discernment," as well.

(Kathleen, you said quite a while ago that you'd like to read my book when it came out. I'm afraid I'm only managing to put out bits and pieces, but this is essentially the same as the book material.)

Thanks. You don't know what Scholtz said? I feel sure Brown is right. Has anyone come up with a reliable chronology of composition dates?

No, I don't have the Scholtz edition on hand. From the description in Niecks, it sounds as if he simply said he consulted this sketch in making his edition.

There's a good chronology of composition dates in the back of Samson's Chopin (in the Master Musician's series).

To explain my doubts about Brown's date a little more fully: It was unusual for Chopin to hold onto music longer than a year before publishing. Especially so with mazurkas, which he tended to publish on a fairly regularly throughout his life. The opus 24 set appeared in print in April 1836; the opus 30 set as early as November 1837, so it seems likely that he composed the 4 pieces of opus 30 somewhere between those two dates.

To explain my doubts about Brown's date a little more fully: It was unusual for Chopin to hold onto music longer than a year before publishing. Especially so with mazurkas, which he tended to publish on a fairly regularly throughout his life.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopin%27s_mazurkas (pardon my cheap scholarship) nearly a third were published posthumously, plenty in the 30's. There's no reason not to suggest he started 5 during op. 24 or 17, only finishing 4 or holding back one - it is rather unusual in length. I suppose it all rests on Brown's reputation, which isn't so good?

To explain my doubts about Brown's date a little more fully: It was unusual for Chopin to hold onto music longer than a year before publishing. Especially so with mazurkas, which he tended to publish on a fairly regularly throughout his life.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopin%27s_mazurkas (pardon my cheap scholarship) nearly a third were published posthumously, plenty in the 30's. There's no reason not to suggest he started 5 during op. 24 or 17, only finishing 4 or holding back one - it is rather unusual in length. I suppose it all rests on Brown's reputation, which isn't so good?

The distinction here would be between the mazurkas he wrote and wanted to publish - these typically came into print fairly soon after he wrote them - and those mazurkas that, for whatever reason, he decided not to publish - these were found after his death, and published at various times then. So there would be reason not to suggest that he started 5 during op. 24: there's no evidence that he ever did so.

That said, there's a fair bit of guess-work involved here, and if there are things about 30/4 that strike you as being typical of mazurkas dating before 1836, then you might be able to make a good case for an earlier date.