From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 01:12:50 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA11524; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA11516 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:53:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15129
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:55:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA31881
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 01:02:54 -0700
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:17:13 -0400.
X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 01:02:53 -0700
Message-ID: <31836.894009773@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message ,
murr rhame wrote:
>Speaking of general security issues, if your list is well known and
>unmoderated, see if non-subscribers can post. A Spamford need not
>gather your subscriber addresses if all they have to do is make a post
>to your list to distribute their spam. Unless you have a special
>reason to differ, unmoderated mailing lists should only accept posts
>from list subscribers.
Yes. definitely.
P.S. Actually, Spamford Wallace never got into spamming mailing lists
directly. There was however one real hardcore thief/jerk named ``Krazy
Kevin'' who used to exclusively spam mailing lists and nothing else.
He was always selling discount magazine subscriptions. Authorities in
New York State finally caught up to him and successfully prosecuted him
for fraud and I think he even ended up doing some jail time. It seems
that people who sent him money for magazine subscriptions often only
received one or two issues of their requested magazines and then the
subscriptions mysteriously stopped coming.
Another good argument for never buying _anything_ from a spammer.
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 03:52:29 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA16888; Fri, 1 May 1998 03:37:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA16874 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 03:37:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14179;
Fri, 1 May 1998 06:33:47 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980501063347.A14170@gsp.org>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 06:33:47 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Interesting piece of mail this morning (forwarded)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Y'know, it's amazing what people will resort to in order to avoid reasoned
argument when their preconceived notions are threatened. I suppose this
insulting and ostrich-like response is Jason's way of answering the issues
that Ron (and now I, and others) have raised.
I shouldn't be surprised: on various mailing lists, I'm starting to
see more and more of this from newbies, who simply can't handle the
reality that the Internet is a complex place, and effectively offering
services -- whether they be mailing lists, web sites, or anything else --
is NOT as easy as they hypsters would like us all to believe. It *does*
require a large body of technical knowledge, and those who think there's
an easy way around that are not only doomed to failure, they are also
highly likely to inflict collateral damage on the very community they
are trying to serve, as well as the rest of us.
(Maybe someday it'll be simpler. Now is emphatically not that someday.)
It was one thing to plead ignorance 15 years ago, when you could fit all
the books on Unix and the Arpanet in your briefcase and have room left
over for lunch. But to do so today is fatuous: there are not only books,
but web sites and FAQs and how-to guides and such an incredible wealth
of information that only those who deliberately avoid educating themselves
can manage not to learn something.
And refusing to listen to people with nearly two decades of online
experience -- just because what they're saying makes you uncomfortable --
is a pretty good way to do that.
---Rsk
----- Forwarded message from Jason Rasku -----
>
> From: Jason Rasku
> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:13:46 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Rich Kulawiec
> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
>
> plonk...
>
> --
> Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701,
> LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668.
[Excessive signature trimmed]
----- End forwarded message -----
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 06:07:58 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA19031; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:00:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA18986 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 05:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7])
by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP
id JAA03082; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:00:21 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (murr@localhost)
by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA05308;
Fri, 1 May 1998 09:00:15 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:00:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: murr rhame
To: Rich Kulawiec
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
In-Reply-To: <19980430220623.B9610@gsp.org>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> Name three.
>
> I would expect that any such answer would (a) name the mailing lists
> explicitly and (b) explain who they are run by and that person(s)'s
> level of knowledge and (c) provide adequate justification for why
> they should be considered "the most valuable lists on the internet".
An essay exam? [plonk] Two out of three of your criteria are
completely subjective. You are the only one on the planet who could
provide answers which you find satisfactory. It's tough to be tried
by law-maker, judge and jury rolled into one.
If you are a listowner who uses a well run server, you need not be an
email wizard. I usually send a one page description of setup options
to a new owner. I also send a one page listowner command quick-ref
with examples all of the owner commands they are likely to use. I
arrange a phone call in which I check their general skills and discuss
the joys and pitfalls of running a list. I setup the list in a
secure manner and send them on their way. Even a Mac user who has
never seen a command line can be up to speed in short order. After a
brief period of hand-holding, they are on their own. The person who
"runs the list" need not be an email genius to responsibly run a
successful mailing list. A good site manger is available to handle
the tough technical questions.
- murr -
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 06:37:38 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA19419; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:22:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA19412 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:22:32 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <199805011229.claire.98050048@siberia.demon.co.uk>
From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:29:17 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk
References: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:29:49 +0100. <199804292029.claire.98047419@siberia.demon.co.uk>
In-reply-to: <7954.893888735@monkeys.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On 29 Apr 98 at 15:25, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
> >> The list participants (and their opinions) tend to have an effect
> >> upon the behavior of the list admin.
> >
> >Ron, do you really reckon that the best way to encourage them to
> >have an effect is to pour out 4-letter words, as you claim to do?
>
> Yup.
Ron,
I guess that reply says a lot. I've met a few other men with
that sort of attitude (sadly, it's neatly always _men_). And for
some reason, they always seem to find people "picking on them". I
wonder why it is that the only person on this list who seems to get
maliciously subbed to other lists is you?
> The world existed for untold millenia _before_ you and your mailing
> list came along, and it will probably manage to survive somehow
> even after your list disappears (or morphs into a radio call-in
> show).
Ron, before that list existed, a lot of ppl in the area that uses this
list used to commit suicide. They still do. But in each of the three
cases where ppl came close to the edge when they were on the list,
someone was able to step in promptly: in one case we got someone to
the person when her wrists were already cut.
Sure, the world would go on. But the graveyards would a wee bit
fuller. I happen to regard that as a bad thing.
> Even if you really do not want your list to disappear, if _you_
> can't ad-minister it properly (and in a non abusive way) then
> please consider stepping aside and letting someone more
> well-clued have a whack at it.
I don't like the situation of no confirmation: I know it's open to
abuse, and I want to close it. So does the site admin. But the
site admin is constrained in several ways as to which software she
can run, and the available software does not include sub
confirmation. So far, we have had *one* instance of someone
involuntarily subbed, dealt with promptly (we have 24-hour-a-day
list admins).
That loophole *will* be closed: it just can't be done instantly,
much as I want it to be. And on other lists I run, where I have
choice of software, sub confirmation is top of the list of
*required* features for the MLM software.
> (This isn't directed at you in particular. My comments here are meant to
> apply equally to _all_ list admins.)
>
> >I was in that situation myself: I
> >didn't like it, but no amount of abuse from anyone would change the
> >situation.
>
> Translation: I knew I was running a badly configured and
> potentially abusive mailing list,
Wrong. Not a "potentially abusive list" -- rather, one that has a
loophole which leaves it open to abuse by others. There's an
important difference: this list itself is *not* potentially abusive.
> but to hell with everbody else on
> the planet. Me and my needs come first.
Nope. The people for whom we provide the support facility come
first. If a malicious third party exploits a loophole before we
succeed in closing it, all I ask is that the victim of that abuse
doesn't create more victims. It's a general principle that works
well elsewhere in life -- take a peep in any court, and you'll
see the law applying it every day of the week.
> Have you ever considered taking up spamming? You already have the
> ethical mindset for it. Now all you need is some spamware and a
> target address list or two.
You're very confused, aren't you Ron? You can't distinguish between
someone who commits an offence and someone who has not taken every
conceivable step to stop others offending. We agree entirely
about the importance of subscription confirmation: the difference is
in how we respond to abuse when it occurs.
But frankly, I've had enough. There was a time when this list
included a lot of coherent discussion, but increasingly the bandwidth
seems to be taken up with lots of folks trying in vain to explain
good manners to someone who doesn't seem to get the basic message
that civility is a two-way street, that problems ain't best resolved
by escalating them to hurt others, and that two wrongs don't make a
right.
Rather than hunt through the chaff for the gems that are still
in there somewhere, I'm going to save my bandwidth and diskspace,
and unsub for a while.
Best wishes,
Claire
--
Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 06:52:32 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA19861; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:46:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA19854 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00987;
Fri, 1 May 1998 09:49:17 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:49:16 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
References: <19980430220623.B9610@gsp.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:00:14AM -0400
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:00:14AM -0400, murr rhame wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
>
> > Name three.
> >
> > I would expect that any such answer would (a) name the mailing lists
> > explicitly and (b) explain who they are run by and that person(s)'s
> > level of knowledge and (c) provide adequate justification for why
> > they should be considered "the most valuable lists on the internet".
>
> An essay exam? [plonk] Two out of three of your criteria are
> completely subjective. [...]
They're not my criteria. They're Ron's. I simply gave my take on
what an answer would look like -- and I could easily be wrong, since I
was interpreting what Ron had to say. For an authoritative answer,
I suggest you ask him.
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 08:52:35 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA22516; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:52:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA22508 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:51:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id JAA25015; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:53:58 -0600 (MDT)
Message-ID: <19980501095358.A23793@swcp.com>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:53:58 -0600
From: Lazlo Nibble
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing
Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
References: <354920E4.CCC2C60C@iname.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <354920E4.CCC2C60C@iname.com>; from Pete St. Onge on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 09:09:56PM -0400
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 09:09:56PM -0400, Pete St. Onge wrote:
> That said, what resources are there for list admins (irrespective
> of their experience level)?
1) The Documentation.
2) The FAQ.
Maybe this suggestion sounds facetious and snotty, but a number of the people
who are squealing loudest in this thread have very obviously never looked at
(or even for) either one.
> Perhaps within the expertise of this list, we could put together a
> general overview of list operations, perhaps even with specific examples for
> the various list progs.
If the existing FAQs and documentation aren't sufficient to your needs,
O'Reilly has a book on list administration out. I don't really see why all
the effort put into existing materials needs to be duplicated, but if you're
bound and determined, by all means, go for it.
--
::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)
::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 09:07:32 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA22780; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:02:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA22763 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02545;
Fri, 1 May 1998 12:04:39 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980501120438.A2511@gsp.org>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:04:38 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
References: <19980430220623.B9610@gsp.org> <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org>; from Rich Kulawiec on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:49:16AM -0400
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
A correction to my own note:
On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:49:16AM -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> They're not my criteria. They're Ron's. I simply gave my take on
> what an answer would look like -- and I could easily be wrong, since I
> was interpreting what Ron had to say. For an authoritative answer,
> I suggest you ask him.
Actually, they belong to Norbert Bollow , who made
the statement in question. Ron merely asked him to name three which
satisfied the criteria...which neither he nor anyone else has, yet.
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 09:22:36 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA23342; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA23335 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:21:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126])
by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29755
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:23:43 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.136.212.25])
by carrot.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10177
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:23:42 -0500
Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08557 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:23:41 -0500
From: Mike Nolan
Message-Id: <199805011623.LAA08557@celery.tssi.com>
Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing (fwd)
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:23:41 -0500 (CDT)
Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> If the existing FAQs and documentation aren't sufficient to your needs,
> O'Reilly has a book on list administration out. I don't really see why all
> the effort put into existing materials needs to be duplicated, but if you're
> bound and determined, by all means, go for it.
Not all mailing list software packages have excellent documentation or
FAQ's, and a lot of the information it takes to run a list isn't directly
related to the list software itself, but to other aspects of e-mail.
The first I'd heard of this particular book from O'Reilly was on this
list earlier this week. That's unusual because I generally receive
press releases from them, and have gotten review copies of several of
their Unix-related books.
I'm one of those who would buy most O'Reilly books sight unseen, (I own
about 40 of them), though I a bit skeptical of the ability to distill the
knowledge, wisdom, and patience it takes to be a successful list manager
into ANY book.
--
Mike Nolan
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 09:54:18 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA23962; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:44:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA23955 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:44:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06997
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:46:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13001
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:54:17 -0700
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing
In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 01 May 1998 09:53:58 -0600.
<19980501095358.A23793@swcp.com>
X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:54:17 -0700
Message-ID: <12999.894041657@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message <19980501095358.A23793@swcp.com>,
Lazlo Nibble wrote:
>On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 09:09:56PM -0400, Pete St. Onge wrote:
>
>> That said, what resources are there for list admins (irrespective
>> of their experience level)?
>
>1) The Documentation.
>2) The FAQ.
Since we are on the subject, allow _me_ to ask ``Where _is_ the FAQ exactly?''
I've been loking for it myself and (as you might imagine) I'd like to per-
haps make a contribution or two to it on the topic of security.
>Maybe this suggestion sounds facetious and snotty, but a number of the people
>who are squealing loudest in this thread have very obviously never looked at
>(or even for) either one.
Well, even _I_ wouldn't go that far. A lot of people, myself included, are
not even sure precisely where the FAQ is.
It's hard to benefit from a resources if you don't know weher it is.
>> Perhaps within the expertise of this list, we could put together a
>> general overview of list operations, perhaps even with specific examples for
>> the various list progs.
>
>If the existing FAQs and documentation aren't sufficient to your needs,
>O'Reilly has a book on list administration out...
Now _that_ should be a very useful bit of information for the participants
here! (I for one didn't know anything about this new book until you men-
tioned it.)
I just popped over to O'Reilly's web site and found the page on it. Here's
the URL for the benefit of anyone else who might be interested:
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/mailing/
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 10:22:39 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA24563; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24556 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08737
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:15:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13827
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:23:41 -0700
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 01 May 1998 09:49:16 -0400.
<19980501094916.A982@gsp.org>
X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:23:40 -0700
Message-ID: <13825.894043420@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org>,
Rich Kulawiec wrote:
>On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:00:14AM -0400, murr rhame wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
>>
>> > Name three.
>> >
>> > I would expect that any such answer would (a) name the mailing lists
>> > explicitly and (b) explain who they are run by and that person(s)'s
>> > level of knowledge and (c) provide adequate justification for why
>> > they should be considered "the most valuable lists on the internet".
>>
>> An essay exam? [plonk] Two out of three of your criteria are
>> completely subjective. [...]
>
>They're not my criteria. They're Ron's. I simply gave my take on
>what an answer would look like -- and I could easily be wrong, since I
>was interpreting what Ron had to say. For an authoritative answer,
>I suggest you ask him.
I will accept without proof that there are indeed many mailing lists on
the net that large groups of people find to be very useful and valuable
resources _and_ which are badly administered by people who don't know
what they are doing.
In such cases, the ``value'' of the list is highly dependent upon who you
ask. The subscribers may steadfastly assert that the thing is very valuable,
whereas if you ask me, _I_ may say that (overall) the thing is mostly just
a net-menace which ought to be quietly done away with. (Other people who
have been subscription bombed... e.g. ... may perhaps
also take a position similar to mine.)
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 10:37:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA24852; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:27:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24838 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09524
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14331
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:36:54 -0700
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: FYI - List security and that new O'Reilly book
X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:36:54 -0700
Message-ID: <14329.894044214@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I was just browsing the online index for that new O'Reilly book about
mailing list administration, and I see that the author has several single-
page references on `security' listed in the index, broken down by specific
type of list admin package (e.g. Listproc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, Smartlist).
The author also seems to have a four page section on ``abuse of mailing
lists''.
Having not seen the book itself, I can only assume that he covers the most
important three topics in this area, i.e.:
o risks of allowing non-subscribers to post
o risks of allowing the subscriber address list to be harvested
o risks of accepting new subscriptions without confirmation
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 10:42:34 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA25007; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:30:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24998 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:30:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id LAA07810; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:32:21 -0600 (MDT)
Message-ID: <19980501113220.A6236@swcp.com>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:32:20 -0600
From: Lazlo Nibble
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing
Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
References: <19980501095358.A23793@swcp.com> <12999.894041657@monkeys.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <12999.894041657@monkeys.com>; from Ronald F. Guilmette on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:54:17AM -0700
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:54:17AM -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
>>> That said, what resources are there for list admins (irrespective of
>>> their experience level)?
>>
>> 1) The Documentation.
>> 2) The FAQ.
>
> Since we are on the subject, allow _me_ to ask ``Where _is_ the FAQ
> exactly?''
The majordomo FAQ is at http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/FAQ.html. Users
of other list admin software should check the software's documentation to find
out whether there's a FAQ for their package, and if so, where it lives.
>> Maybe this suggestion sounds facetious and snotty, but a number of the
>> people who are squealing loudest in this thread have very obviously
>> never looked at (or even for) either one.
>
> Well, even _I_ wouldn't go that far. A lot of people, myself included,
> are not even sure precisely where the FAQ is.
I find that when looking for the majordomo FAQ, going to a search engine and
looking for the words "majordomo FAQ" can be surprisingly helpful.
--
::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)
::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:08:36 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25830; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:02:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25823 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost)
by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05273;
Fri, 1 May 1998 11:04:22 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:04:22 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199805011804.LAA05273@smtp02.primenet.com>
Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com"
via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd005239; Fri May 1 11:04:19 1998
X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin)
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you.
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:16:07 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25873; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:05:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25865 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:05:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost)
by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06086;
Fri, 1 May 1998 11:06:07 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:06:07 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199805011806.LAA06086@smtp02.primenet.com>
Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com"
via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd005977; Fri May 1 11:05:57 1998
X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: murr rhame , Rich Kulawiec
From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin)
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you.
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:21:59 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25692; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:00:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25685 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:59:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost)
by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03722;
Fri, 1 May 1998 11:00:39 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:00:39 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199805011800.LAA03722@smtp02.primenet.com>
Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com"
via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd003600; Fri May 1 11:00:29 1998
X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: Rich Kulawiec , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin)
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you.
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:22:27 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA25554; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:54:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25546 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost)
by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01786;
Fri, 1 May 1998 10:56:18 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:56:18 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199805011756.KAA01786@smtp02.primenet.com>
Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com"
via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd001754; Fri May 1 10:56:13 1998
X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: Lazlo Nibble , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin)
Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Please quit spamming me and take my address of your list, thank you
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:29:20 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA25604; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:58:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25597 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost)
by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03132;
Fri, 1 May 1998 10:59:25 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:59:25 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199805011759.KAA03132@smtp02.primenet.com>
Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com"
via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd003094; Fri May 1 10:59:19 1998
X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers)
From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin)
Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing (fwd)
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you.
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:29:39 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA25595; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25588 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:56:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost)
by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02495;
Fri, 1 May 1998 10:57:54 -0700 (MST)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:57:54 -0700 (MST)
Message-Id: <199805011757.KAA02495@smtp02.primenet.com>
Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com"
via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd002444; Fri May 1 10:57:46 1998
X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin)
Subject: Re: FYI - List security and that new O'Reilly book
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you.
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 14:07:59 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA29873; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA29865 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id MAA28092 for list-managers; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:08:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199805011908.MAA28092@honor.greatcircle.com>
From: mcb@greatcircle.com (Michael C. Berch)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:08:38 +0000
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: list-managers
Subject: Spew from bobg@primenet.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Robert L. Guertin (bobg@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you.
This bozo is history, his address has been barred from further
posting, and "take my address off" has been added to the greatcircle.com
list admin filters. Sheesh. (We had "take me off" but I guess
that wasn't good enough.)
--
Michael C. Berch
Postmaster and List Manager, Great Circle Associates
mcb@greatcircle.com
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 14:22:18 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA29888; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA29878 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA28690 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA17794
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18039
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:52:48 -0700
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 01 May 1998 11:06:07 -0700.
<199805011806.LAA06086@smtp02.primenet.com>
X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:52:48 -0700
Message-ID: <18037.894052368@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message <199805011806.LAA06086@smtp02.primenet.com>,
bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) wrote:
>Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you.
Does anybody know who this guy is or what his problem is?
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 15:07:18 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA02142; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:05:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02133 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:05:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126])
by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15969
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 17:07:20 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.136.212.25])
by carrot.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13731
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 17:07:20 -0500
Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13254 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 17:07:18 -0500
From: Mike Nolan
Message-Id: <199805012207.RAA13254@celery.tssi.com>
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:07:18 -0500 (CDT)
Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
"Ronald F. Guilmette" wrote
> >Please quit spamming me....
>
> Does anybody know who this guy is or what his problem is?
Gee, Ron, I would have though you, OF ALL PEOPLE, would recognize this
particular strategy: annoy everyone on the list to get your particular
grievance addressed. Maybe he didn't use enough 4 letter words? :-)
--
Mike Nolan
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 15:22:24 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA02635; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02628 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:20:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id PAA07706; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:22:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <354A4B3F.D1B8F34E@postmodern.com>
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:23:36 -0700
From: "Michael C. Berch"
Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com
Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: List Managers
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
References: <199805012207.RAA13254@celery.tssi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Mike Nolan wrote:
>
> "Ronald F. Guilmette" wrote
>
> > >Please quit spamming me....
> >
> > Does anybody know who this guy is or what his problem is?
>
> Gee, Ron, I would have though you, OF ALL PEOPLE, would recognize this
> particular strategy: annoy everyone on the list to get your particular
> grievance addressed. Maybe he didn't use enough 4 letter words? :-)
I should point out as an aside that his "grievance", if any, is that he was
too inept to figure out how to unsubscribe. All lists at greatcircle.com, of
course, require subscription confirmation, so he didn't wander in by accident
or someone else's malice.
--
Michael C. Berch
list-managers list manager
mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:35:18 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06291; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06281 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (gallifrey.tymnet.com [131.146.3.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA27024 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:19:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from jms@localhost)
by gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12857
for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Smith
Message-Id: <199804301921.MAA12857@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
> there _are_ many case in everyday life where you want to have someone
> doing the job who really knows what the hell they are doing.
And this is not one of them.
You don't need a college degree to flip hamburgers.
You don't need a college degree to run a mailing list.
-Joe
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:37:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05783; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05772 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from iwebb.com (iwebb.com [208.234.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA27366 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:03:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [207.104.58.119] (stk-pw119.gotnet.net [207.104.58.119])
by iwebb.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA24149
for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:04:52 -0400
Message-Id: <199804290504.BAA24149@iwebb.com>
Subject: Thanks everyone...
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 22:06:39 -0700
x-sender: jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997
From:
To:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Thank you for such a nice response. I didn't realize that I had to be so
aggressive to get such a warm welcome! :O) If I had known I would have
done it a long time ago! (Just kidding!) :O)
Seriously though, I realize it is unrealistic to expect everyone to get
along, but it would be nice if the more personal stuff could be sent
privately!
Thanks again for the support! I figured I would have to unscribe after
my post!
Jenifer
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:38:52 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05708; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05700 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:13:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA04350 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:01:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 11988 invoked by uid 666); 28 Apr 1998 18:05:20 -0000
Date: 28 Apr 1998 18:05:20 -0000
Message-ID: <19980428180520.11986.qmail@cr.yp.to>
From: "D. J. Bernstein"
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Bounce Handler (fwd)
References: <199804281406.JAA04064@celery.tssi.com>
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Mike Nolan writes:
> IMHO there are 'good' bounces, and 'bad' bounces,
> and some intelligence or thought as to what to do with them is A Good Thing,
See http://pobox.com/~djb/docs/somebounces.html for a study of the
bounces on one mailing list.
I've never seen ezmlm eliminate an address that I would have kept. Human
list managers tend to do much worse than ezmlm:
(1) they kick subscribers off the list without any warning;
(2) even when they provide warnings, they don't wait long enough for
configuration problems to be fixed.
ezmlm takes a while to eliminate a bad address, occasionally as long as
a month, but it can afford to be patient.
---Dan
Smaller, faster, safer than inetd+tcpd. http://pobox.com/~djb/ucspi-tcp.html
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:40:51 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06369; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06357 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA01859 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id QAA02436; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:52:31 -0600 (MDT)
Message-ID: <19980430165230.A2307@swcp.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:52:30 -0600
From: Lazlo Nibble
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i
In-Reply-To: <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz>; from Olwen Williams on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 07:26:01AM +1200
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 07:26:01AM +1200, Olwen Williams wrote:
> Incidentally I've never been forge subscribe to a mailing list. If it
> happens to Ron all the time does that say samething about him? Could he
> have antagonised people so that they do this to him.
* ding *
--
::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo)
::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:42:32 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05921; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05911 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA19481 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:18:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44])
by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id LAA06821;
Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:20:17 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199804291620.LAA06821@quilla.tezcat.com>
Subject: Re: AOL Problems
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:20:36 -0500
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998
From: Adam Bailey
To: "mailinglist-admin@esosoft.com" ,
"list-managers@GreatCircle.COM"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On 4/27/98 6:39 AM, Jack Teems wrote...
>I repeatedly have comments from AOL customers that they are unable to send
>email
>from my mail list at http://bounce.to/jteems in order to subscribe to my mail
>list. Is this just a peculiar problem with AOL because it won't handle the
>javascript in my site?
This is a web issue, not a mailing list issue.
You are using the format:
mailto:address@host?body=body text
This is not supported by many web browsers, including AOL's. I would
suggest you avoid using features that are only limited to a small subset
of users. I even don't recommend using ?subject, which is at least more
widely supported than ?body.
--
Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously;
adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive."
adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard
Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:45:03 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05972; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05962 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (h153-64-251-18.NCR.COM [153.64.251.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA07798 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from jabberwocky (jabberwocky.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.123])
by ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP
id TAA09372 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199804300237.TAA09372@ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
X-Sender: bhoule@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:35:30 -0700
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Bill Houle
Subject: Re: MajorDomo Header/Footer insertion Web interface script.
In-Reply-To: <19980429135718.A12795@swcp.com>
References: <0ES600418OT000@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET>
<0ES600418OT000@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 01:57 PM 4/29/98 -0600, Lazlo Nibble wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:33:16AM -0700, Chris Newman wrote:
>
>> We are in the process of installing MajorDomo and MajorCool. The only
utility
>> which seems to be missing is a script which creates a Web page GUI for the
>> automatic insertion of headers and footers in outgoing messages.
>
>Majordomo controls message headers and footers in the listname.config file.
>Not sure where a web script would come in on the process.
Majordomo headers & footers (in the list.config) can be maintained via
MajorCool.
However, I believe Chris is asking about the use of MajorCool (or whatever)
to actually originate mail. Majordomo/MajorCool was never intended to be a
mail agent. Such a product is available though: www.hotmail.com :).
--bill
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:46:45 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06016; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:17:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05998 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gateway.simutronics.com (gateway.simutronics.com [198.83.204.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA09746 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from af.simutronics.com (af.simutronics.com [198.83.204.55]) by gateway.simutronics.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02132 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:31:36 -0500
From: "Andy Finkenstadt"
To:
Subject: RE: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:33:02 -0500
Message-ID: <000101bd73f1$11979020$37cc53c6@af.simutronics.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
In-Reply-To: <6571.893886140@monkeys.com>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Importance: Normal
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Well geez, I'm sorry I even asked the question. Many thanks to Chuq and
others who commented on what the true solutions were, which I had already
suspected.
The bottom line is, until mailing list software writers and mailing list
administrators configure their lists to always require confirmation from the
desired recipient, there's no practical way for an innocent victim to
prevent their personal or business e-mail address from being bombed with a
denial of service attack of this nature.
I wrote a procmail recipe that alleviates nearly all of the problem mail by
dropping into another folder any mail that does not directly address an
address using one of our domains. Using formail, I can re-process an
attacked mailbox if the problem recurs in the future.
This solution covers most of the needs we had without having to change the
world, or write sophisticated "detect that a mailbox is being bombed in
real-time without human intervention" software. I'd rather write dwim()
instead, as it would be much easier.
-Andy
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:49:59 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05814; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05786 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA04956 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:55:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02721;
Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15026;
Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:04:53 -0700
To: Jack Teems
cc: "mailinglist-admin@esosoft.com" ,
"list-managers@GreatCircle.COM"
Subject: Re: AOL Problems
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:39:53 -0600.
<35446E89.8DD3AE63@rapidnet.com>
X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:04:53 -0700
Message-ID: <15024.893833493@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message <35446E89.8DD3AE63@rapidnet.com>, you wrote:
>I repeatedly have comments from AOL customers that they are unable to send ema
>il
>from my mail list at http://bounce.to/jteems in order to subscribe to my mail
>list. Is this just a peculiar problem with AOL because it won't handle the
>javascript in my site?
Looks to me like bounce.to just forwards over to Angelfire.
AOL may be blocking at traffic to/from Angelfire because that place has
been referenced frequently in a LOT of E-mail spam. (I track this sort
of stuff so I know.)
AOL has become very proactive in not talking to sites that seem to be
used a lot by spammers.
You may want to discuss that with the people at Angelfire and maybe move
your website to some less outwardly spam-friendly provider.
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:51:13 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05959; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05949 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02204 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:47:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23475;
Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:26:10 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980429172609.A23470@wombat>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:26:09 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: NEW: List-digest - for list owners
References: <13382.893829502@monkeys.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 07:20:47AM -0400
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 07:20:47AM -0400, murr rhame wrote:
> As long as we are asking pertinent questions, what is the purpose of
> yet another list managers mailing list? I am subscribed to two
> general purpose listowners lists already and I know of several more.
I have noticed this phenomena recurring with increasing frequency
over the last year or so: there are now at least half a dozen "web manager"
mailing lists, a handful of "list manager" mailng lists, and I"m sure
there are other redundant ones as well.
This serves no one: it simply fragments the community while compelling
those who want (or *need*) to be apprised of developments to subscribe
to multiple lists instead of just one -- and then to deal with duplicate
traffic and overlapping discussions among them. Yet the proponents of
new lists seem blissfully unaware of this (which raises the question
"If you can't find the existing list-manager's mailing list, do you
in fact have enough clues to start another one?"). They tend to react
with hostility to the suggestion that someone else Got There First
and that they should cheerfully support their efforts rather than
striking out on their own.
Grumpily,
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:52:27 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05946; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05928 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA28541 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:48:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id NAA27568; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199804292049.NAA27568@shell7.ba.best.com>
From: Cyndi Norman
To: jteems@rapidnet.com
CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com
In-reply-to: <35447150.1EAB6D2@rapidnet.com> (message from Jack Teems on Mon,
27 Apr 1998 05:51:44 -0600)
Subject: AOL and web links
Reply-to: cnorman@best.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:51:44 -0600
From: Jack Teems
I repeatedly have comments from AOL customers that they are unable to
send email from the link on my web page at http://bounce.to/jteems in
order to subscribe to my mail list. Is this just a peculiar problem
with AOL because it won't handle the javascript in my site?
Yes, I have the same problem with AOL browsers (just PC browsers
apparently, not the Mac ones).
The link you have is:
mailto:majordomo@majordomo.net?body=subscribe neatnettricks
I have links in the form of:
logit.cgi?http://www.nontoxic.com/
(note this is a problem to keep track of clickthroughs for an ads
page)
AOL browsers seem to barf at the ? I have been trying to figure out why
and if it's fixable. Some people on my ISP's user's groups think it has to
do with the way the html headers are returned. I didn't write my problem
so I really haven't a clue what this means. Basically...AOL browsers suck
and people should download different ones :-). Or you could provide an
alternate link for AOL browser users...that leads to standard directions.
I used to use a subject header add on for mail to links to sub to my list,
but stopped when I found out that lynx couldn't handle them (this was
several years ago...they might have improved).
Actually, I want to use a form to do subs from the web, as much as I like
the simplicity of your solution. So many people don't know how to set the
return address in their browser...about 10% (okay, 5%) of my users have
junk From: lines (and I don't mean nospam stuff, I mean "user" for a
username or things like "cnorman@best.com@best.com").
Cyndi
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman
something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com
__________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:54:24 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06348; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06313 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.n.ml.org (narnia.mhv.net [199.0.0.118]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA00660 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from djr@localhost
by mail.n.ml.org (Sendmail 8.9.0.Beta5) via SMTP (SAA16493)
on Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:04:58 -0400 (199804302204)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:04:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel Reed
To: Olwen Williams
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
In-Reply-To: <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 1 May 1998, Olwen Williams wrote:
) Incidentally I've never been forge subscribe to a mailing list. If it
) happens to Ron all the time does that say samething about him? Could he
) have antagonised people so that they do this to him.
If I felt that your post was extremely antagonistic to me, does that make
you bad? Does that justify my subscribing you to 500 mailing lists that
talk about bestiality and toe-nail clipping?
I absolutely *hate* it when someone says "well, since X bad thing happens
to you, you must be bad." A friend of mine, who ran a Linux machine over
his dialup connection (he was going to get it co-located somewhere in a
month or something, and was running it over his modem until that time),
would get smurfed several times a week. Probably not because of his own
actions, but instead those of his users. At one point, his ISP told him
that if *he got smurfed one more time* that they would cancel his account
because, *obviously*, if you do something that "warrants" being smurfed,
then you are a Bad Person and that ISP didn't want to have anything to do
with you. That's faulty logic, and that's the kind of logic you're
applying here. Subscribe bombing is bad, and doesn't necessarily say
anything whatsoever about the character, integrity, nor the "Bad"ness of
the victim. Maybe he antagonized people, but maybe some psychopath just
likes targetting his address? Maybe he pissed the wrong person off at one
point, or maybe someone on a mailing list he was on got really pissed off
about something and decided to attack that mailing list's subscribers?
I've never been subscribe bombed in my life either, but at one point the
NANOG mailing list was (in a low-level sorta way). NANOG = North American
Network Operators Group, aka the people who run the Internet in the US. I
doubt highly that it, as an entity, offended anyone (unless they're from
the former Yugoslavia and were offended by the fact that there was no
Slavic Nations Network Operators Guild, or something).
Also, a couple of the subscriptions actually went through, because
the MLM software they were using didn't support authentication
cookies , but that's another thread...
--
Daniel Reed (ask me for my PGP key)
Unix - it's a nice place to live, but you wouldn't want to visit there.
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:55:14 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06238; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06216 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA15344 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 02:01:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from leibniz.math.ethz.ch (bollow@leibniz [129.132.146.163]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id LAA08429; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:03:04 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: (bollow@localhost) by leibniz.math.ethz.ch (8.6.12/D-MATH-client) id LAA00900; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:03:03 +0200
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:03:03 +0200
Message-Id: <199804300903.LAA00900@leibniz.math.ethz.ch>
From: Norbert Bollow
Prefer-Language: de, en, fr
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-reply-to: <32473.893872726@monkeys.com> (rfg@monkeys.com)
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
> However when several of the list participatants (with whom the admin has a
> longstanding and pre-existing relationship) are encouraged to write to the
> list admin, asking him/her why he/she is such a bozo to have allowed that
> Guilmette crank to have gotten zubscribed against his will, _then_ results
> are produced and changes in configuration ensue.
To everyone:
Please, everyone take in consideration that Ron was mailbombed
three times by means of mass mailing-list forge-zubscribes (and this
is the most nasty kind of mailbombing by far) *because* he fights a
good battle against spam, from which all responsible netizens are
profiting.
To Ronald F. Guilmette:
Ron,
Surely I understand your anger. But I still think you're overreacting
a bit. I think that instead of posting four-letter words, you should make
a post in polite yet very clear language which says essentially the same
things, and in addition recommends a consultant who is willing to assist
clueless list-admins with setting up their lists properly, for a fee of
course.
> I often wonder that exact thing. I especially wonder about it
> each time some lout of a list admin allows me to be
> forge-zubscribed to a non-confirming mailing list he/she is
> running.
Hmm... is there a standards-track RFC yet which specifies that all
public mailing lists MUST use a zubscription procedure which is
strictly *opt-in* and properly secured against forge-zubscribes?
> The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
My point exactly... you'll be better off being a squeaky wheel than
by being a wheel which shouts insults.
> It takes _both_ a net-hooligan _and_ an incompentent/careless list admin
> to create one of these forged zubscriptions. Remove either one from the
> equation and these things no longer happen.
True... but many of the most valuable lists on the internet are run by
people who are not knowledgeable about the technical aspects of proper
mailing-list set-up. These people are competent in other areas and they
deserve our respect for their work in areas where they're competent. I've
been on the net long enough to know better than to be surprised or angered
by the occasional flame war, but I am still convinced not only that there
is a better way but also that is plain wrong to classify anyone as
"incompetent". (Exception: If you're the boss or employer of that person,
then you have the right to judge.)
BTW, I'm sure it would be possible to design an e-mail filter that will
automatically post a properly-worded message to any e-mail list to which
you get forge-zubscribed.
May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you!
Norbert.
--
Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:57:50 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06278; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06268 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.net-shopper.co.uk (mail.net-shopper.co.uk [194.205.1.152]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA26132 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:46:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail. (mail. [194.205.1.152]) by mail.net-shopper.co.uk (NTMail 4.00.0008/*3GTFQ.KS:WN{) with ESMTP id ccbfhaaa for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:48:48 +0100
Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay4.UU.NET with ESMTP
(peer crosschecked as: honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44])
id QQenjn11202; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:46:29 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25911; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:29:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25904 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:29:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06270;
Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09369;
Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:44 -0700
To: Marty Hoag
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: NEW: List-digest - for list owners
In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:04 -0500.
X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:44 -0700
Message-ID: <9367.893961524@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message , you wro
te:
> I don't know who you intended this for but my position is that spamming
>should be illegal. Removing key information such as who made a post to a
>public archive is counterproductive and only affects historical data. If
>a user absolutely does not want to have their address used then they
>should not send out any e-mail to anyone else...
>
> Marty NEW-LIST Owner/Editor
I never suggested that you ``remove key information''. I merely suggested
that you should make the processes of ``strip mining'' your web site for
large numbers of E-mail addresses unworkable for spammers.
You can do this very easily by implementing an exponential delay/backoff
for sequential fetches of web pages belonging to your site in cases where
those sequential fetches are coming from a single IP address over a short
period of time.
Quite simply, the first request for a page which might carry a ``minable''
E-mail address would come up immediately, but if a second request for a
second such page came to your web server (from the same IP address) within
(say) 10 seconds, then you would delay sending the page to the requestor
for 1 second. If the next following request from that same IP address
also followed within 10 seconds, then you would delay sending back the
next page for 2 seconds, and then 4, and then 8, etc.
This is a simple way to make ``strip mining'' of address from your web
archives of mailing lists unworkable in practice for the person trying to
do the minimg.
Please implement it. Other similar archiving services already have done
so.
I would be more than happy to provide any and all technical assistance you
may need in order to implement this simple delay scheme at no cost to you.
P.S. The exponential backoff/delay scheme also has the additional advantage
of conserving your available CPU cycles and making them quickly available
to people who only want to view one or a few pages at your site. People
who just drop by for a quick peek at a page or two will get maximal re-
sponsiveness from your web site, while others who engage in long sessions
consisting of a lot of closely-spaced page requests will not impact the
apparent speed and performance of your web service as viewed by other
``brief'' users.
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 21:22:18 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA12516; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:13:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA12509 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:12:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from klingon.ici.net (lbm@klingon [207.180.0.40])
by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28984
for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:11:11 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (lbm@localhost)
by klingon.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA28132
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:36:15 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: klingon.ici.net: lbm owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:36:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Linda B. Merims"
X-Sender: lbm@klingon
To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: AOL Problems
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
As we have discovered on the project I am working, the version
of Internet Explorer (3.0) that America Online used as its
web browser does not support JavaScript. At All.
Linda B. Merims
lbm@ici.net
Massachusetts, USA
From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 22:07:18 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA13106; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:54:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA13099 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from klingon.ici.net (lbm@klingon [207.180.0.40])
by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29534;
Sat, 2 May 1998 00:52:45 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (lbm@localhost)
by klingon.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA28235;
Fri, 1 May 1998 19:17:50 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: klingon.ici.net: lbm owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 19:17:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Linda B. Merims"
X-Sender: lbm@klingon
To: "Roger B.A. Klorese"
cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: AOL Problems
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 1 May 1998, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote:
> On Fri, 1 May 1998, Linda B. Merims wrote:
> > As we have discovered on the project I am working, the version
> > of Internet Explorer (3.0) that America Online used as its
> > web browser does not support JavaScript. At All.
>
> ...However, you can use your AOL connection as a Winsock connection and
> run ANY version of IE or Netscape over it.
>
Since the project I am working on is software to support Internet
commerce where the product's customer wants to support the widest
possible base of potential buyers, the fact that some AOL people
will be clever enough to figure this out doesn't help a great
deal. The product's customers still view themselves, rightly so, as
disenfranchising more than 10,000,000 AOL subscribers as potential
buyers if they use any product that generates JavaScript. We
still have to code a version of the product that will
produce HTML only--no JavaScript.
Internet Explorer 3.0.2 is almost as brain dead vis-a-vis JavaScript.
None of which has anything to do with list management.
Linda B. Merims
lbm@ici.net
Massachusetts, USA
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 02:07:19 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA17246; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:53:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA17239; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from diffreithiant.demon.co.uk ([193.237.35.207])
by post.mail.demon.net id aa1009326; 2 May 98 8:50 GMT
From: Darren Wyn Rees
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com
Subject: List statistics, time & motions etc
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:49:25 GMT
Message-ID: <354cd441.2313110@post.demon.co.uk>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Before re-inventing the wheel, or going down a more inefficient path
than needs be, I'm led to -probe- this question here ... How on earth
do *you* experienced list gurus go about collecting/preparing
/collating your list statistics for general 'management' decisions?
Perhaps that assumes that you all collect such figures, I don't know,
I honestly haven't had to think about this beyond today...
Where I find myself picking up a calculator and doing a few simple
sums on a Wordprocessor. And realising, I'd really really love to aim
for more in-depth statistics... how many unique posts, how much mail
has zipped/trundled thru this system, how many subscribers, how many
lurkers, movement on last month (hey, it's the 2nd of May today :),
queries answered and, perhaps, statistical analysis of how people
join/leave, time devoted to answering queries... I'm sure you get the
picture : I want some sort of 'list management balance sheet'.
Do I really need these figures? Well, yes, as I think it's opened my
eyes to some 'odd' things : I'm looking at figures that say that one
list has three times as much posting activity compared to a list with
twice as many subscribers ... and I'm working out 'why is that'. That
said, I'd still much like *your* opinion on the matter.
Any of your feedback, comments on this quite general question of
list-management, is most gratefully appreciated. (I'm off to dig up
my old account books out as I'm sure they'll help give me some broad
tips on this type of resource 'allocation' activity).
I've CCed this message to majordomo-users, (although I use Mj, yes I'm
aware this is not a majordomo-specific question).
Sincerely,
--
Darren Wyn Rees Email merlin@merlin.netlink.co.uk
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 03:22:24 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA20607; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:19:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA20600 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:19:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7])
by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP
id GAA17627; Sat, 2 May 1998 06:21:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (murr@localhost)
by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA00022;
Sat, 2 May 1998 06:21:38 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 06:21:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: murr rhame
To: Daniel Reed
cc: Olwen Williams , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Daniel Reed wrote:
> I absolutely *hate* it when someone says "well, since X bad thing
> happens to you, you must be bad." ...
Well said. Mob justice is rarely poetic. Many folks who have a high
profile are often subject to unwarranted arbitrary attacks. Getting
blasted is not a good indicator that you are an "evil" person.
- murr -
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 04:07:23 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA21152; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:58:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA21145 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12945;
Sat, 2 May 1998 07:01:15 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980502070114.A12924@gsp.org>
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 07:01:14 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
References: <199804301921.MAA12857@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: <199804301921.MAA12857@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>; from Joe Smith on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:21:20PM -0700
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:21:20PM -0700, Joe Smith wrote:
> You don't need a college degree to flip hamburgers.
> You don't need a college degree to run a mailing list.
No one (that I'm aware of) has suggested that you do, so I don't
know why you are trying to rebut a suggestion that hasn't been made.
What has been suggested by me and by others is that you need to know
what the heck you are doing. If you disagree with this, then please
find another Internet to use as your sandbox and come back here when
you're acquired basic competency.
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 06:07:25 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA22985; Sat, 2 May 1998 05:53:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA22978 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 05:53:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7])
by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP
id IAA29134; Sat, 2 May 1998 08:49:49 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (murr@localhost)
by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00980;
Sat, 2 May 1998 08:49:48 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 08:49:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: murr rhame
To: Darren Wyn Rees
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: List statistics, time & motions etc
In-Reply-To: <354cd441.2313110@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sat, 2 May 1998, Darren Wyn Rees wrote:
> Do I really need these figures? Well, yes, as I think it's opened
> my eyes to some 'odd' things : I'm looking at figures that say that
> one list has three times as much posting activity compared to a list
> with twice as many subscribers ... and I'm working out 'why is
> that'. That said, I'd still much like *your* opinion on the matter.
I believe we did discuss related issues on list-managers a while ago.
As I recall, the general consensus was that you can not make useful
numerical comparisons of mailing lists. The volume of traffic and
other statistics will be very defendant on the topic and other
list-specific factors. For example, entertainment fan type mailing
list tends to attract a much more chatty crowd than a depression
support group.
Even forums which are superficially similar can have very different
personalities. I host two technical lists on similar topics. In one
group, many subscribers are very open and helpful. In the other
group, most subscribers tend to treat every bit of knowledge as
closely guarded proprietary information. Both of these lists serve a
useful purpose but they are quite different statistically. I don't
see statistical analysis is generally useful as a list management
tool.
- murr -
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 09:22:23 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA26013; Sat, 2 May 1998 09:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA26001 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 09:10:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from valleys.ndirect.co.uk (root@mail.valleys.ndirect.co.uk [195.99.165.238]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA03135 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 17:11:52 +0100
Received: from localhost (merlin@localhost)
by valleys.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02493;
Sat, 2 May 1998 18:06:29 +0100
X-Authentication-Warning: valleys.ndirect.co.uk: merlin owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:06:29 +0100 (BST)
From: Darren Wyn Rees
X-Sender: merlin@valleys
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: List statistics, time & motions etc
Message-ID:
X-No-Archive: yes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
murr rhame = MR wrote
MR>For example, entertainment fan type mailing
MR>list tends to attract a much more chatty crowd than a depression
MR>support group.
yes, ... the list I noted with twice the 'traffic' was a
music/fan list. Counterpoint : It's not a law cast in stone, as I can't
correlate the above with _other music lists. But as you write...
MR>Even forums which are superficially similar can have very different
MR>personalities.
I agree wholly with
MR>Both of these lists serve a useful purpose but they are quite
MR>different statistically.
but am not sure of ...
MR>I don't see statistical analysis is generally useful as a
MR>list management tool.
as I see it in the reverse. If I've got some well-prepared stats
I can make better costings of various list management activities (perhaps
I'm taking the definition of 'list-management' too far, and should have
explained, I have to deliver etc. the mail for various lists). This is
useful for me, it's very useful. I can't think of a single organisation
where cost management is not useful. Are there any?
Perhaps it's a personality thing, on second thoughts, of _course it is!
Different strokes for different folks : I'm a control-freak who'd ideally
like to cost each probable post shifted for a given period, down to the
last dime. And I love my accounts, and a part-computer & man-made
morass of figures that give me a sense of bureacratic omniscience...
Counterpoint : Those 'in the know'/experienced don't need these things as
they've got instinct (I can't afford instinct for the forseeable future).
Or, more succintly in the words of psittler@behemoth.tamu.edu = PS
PS>People are different.
PS>People behave differently.
Yep, that's true. But I don't think it's grounds for my not preparing
stats which IMHO give me a better idea of what people are after, what it's
costing me to give it to them, and perhaps, how I can give it to them
better in future. The term 'statistical analysis' doesn't help as I see
it (and I acknowledge quite frankly I'm as green as newbie on this)
as it sounds too cold and cerebral... I just want to knowing the market,
or audience, or community (whatever metaphors suits thy style) better.
What I'd say as an end-note on how stats are 'useful' in my case...
I've started toying with some of the Perl code to give people the
opportunity to join a list in another language (a nice feature of the
forthcoming Mj2). So I look at the stats and I can say, XYZ joined this list
in the alternative language. And I know (based on market research) that
they get an _extra sense of value from that. That's worth knowing,
because without the stats (albeit simple in this case) I'd have no idea
how many people were using/valuing something added just for them. I can
therefore use my/other people's time more efficiently in future by a
greater knowledge (based on useful stats) of the user.
I note the comment on 'seasons', but surely the less statistics you have
at your disposal, the more likely you will be basing your list 'life
cycle' predictions on... instinct, gut-feeling : These are not a bad
thing, of course, for those with that kind of experience to go by.
--
Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 15:22:21 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA01281; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA01263 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA05761 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from uucp@localhost)
by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/) via UUCP id SAA18202; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
env-from (appel@erzo.org)
Received: from erzo.org by erzo.org (8.7.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.3)
id BAA26901; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:33:14 GMT
Message-Id: <199805020133.BAA26901@erzo.org>
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Reply-To: appel@erzo.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 May 1998 12:52:48 PDT."
<18037.894052368@monkeys.com>
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:33:14 -0700
From: Shannon Appel
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
>>Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you.
>
>Does anybody know who this guy is or what his problem is?
I thought we were all agreed that it's perfectly acceptable to spam a
list with garbage if you can't get you way. Or does that only apply if
you live in Roseville?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Shannon
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 15:26:21 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA01317; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA01304 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA12901 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:37:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5rbak) with SMTP id VAA09787
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:38:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Roger B.A. Klorese"
To: "Linda B. Merims"
cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: AOL Problems
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Fri, 1 May 1998, Linda B. Merims wrote:
> As we have discovered on the project I am working, the version
> of Internet Explorer (3.0) that America Online used as its
> web browser does not support JavaScript. At All.
...However, you can use your AOL connection as a Winsock connection and
run ANY version of IE or Netscape over it.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG
2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF
"There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 15:29:51 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA01296; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA01286 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA10942 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [153.35.22.180] (1Cust52.max46.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.22.180])
by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08787
for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: bingdo19@mail.earthlink.net
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To: <199805020155.SAA08593@honor.greatcircle.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 22:38:20 -0400
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Bob Langdon
Subject: How to get a discussion started
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Hi,
I recently started a discussion list for (non-web-based) retail business
owners, managers, and salespeople. My question is, how do I get a
discussion going. Should I resort to "seeding" the list? Or just pose a
contrversial question and hope for some responses.
What percentage of subscribers can I expect to particpate?
Thanks for any insights you can offer.
Bob Langdon
webmaster@ retailernews.com
retailer-news-digest@Mailing-List.net
Bob Langdon
webmaster@retailernews.com
<===========================================>
_Retailer News Online_ magazine
http://RetailerNews.com
The complete source of business information
-brought to you by:
Dealer Support Servcies
Affordable Website design, hosting and maintenance
<============================================>
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 16:07:18 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03597; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:02:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA03590; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:02:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA09247; Sat, 2 May 1998 18:04:25 -0500 (CDT)
To: Darren Wyn Rees
Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: List statistics, time & motions etc
References: <354cd441.2313110@post.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
From: Jason L Tibbitts III
Date: 02 May 1998 18:04:24 -0500
In-Reply-To: Darren Wyn Rees's message of "Sat, 02 May 1998 08:49:25 GMT"
Message-ID:
Lines: 13
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/Emacs 19.34
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
>>>>> "DWR" == Darren Wyn Rees writes:
DWR> How on earth do *you* experienced list gurus go about
DWR> collecting/preparing /collating your list statistics for general
DWR> 'management' decisions?
You might want to start with something like logmail, which you can grab
from ftp.hpc.uh.edu in /pub/majordomo. It generates some useful reports
about top posters and subjects and distribution of messages per day and per
hour of the day. It is not list-specific; you just pipe messages to it or
run it over an mbox file.
- J<
From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 20:52:18 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA07828; Sat, 2 May 1998 20:39:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from leslie.mystery.com (leslie.mystery.com [198.202.235.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA07821 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 20:39:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 30046 invoked from network); 3 May 1998 03:41:53 -0000
Received: from angus.mystery.com (root@198.202.235.1)
by leslie.mystery.com with SMTP; 3 May 1998 03:41:53 -0000
Received: (from gabe@localhost)
by angus.mystery.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26323
for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 2 May 1998 23:40:43 -0400
From: Gabe Helou
Message-Id: <199805030340.XAA26323@angus.mystery.com>
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 23:40:43 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199805020155.SAA08593@honor.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at May 1, 98 06:55:19 pm
Reply-To: gabe@mystery.com
X-URL: http://www.mystery.com/~gabe/
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
... and then Joe Smith says:
} > there _are_ many case in everyday life where you want to have
} > someone doing the job who really knows what the hell they are doing.
}
} And this is not one of them.
}
} You don't need a college degree to flip hamburgers.
} You don't need a college degree to run a mailing list.
So ... if someone doesn't know how to cook, you'd keep eating whatever
burnt offering that person drops on your plate? Are you actually
advocating incompetence?
If you're going to flip hamburgers, you should be a competent hamburger
flipper. If you're going to run a mailing list, you should be a
competent list admin.
From list-managers-owner Sun May 3 05:07:19 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA20024; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:04:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA20017 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7])
by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP
id IAA06806; Sun, 3 May 1998 08:06:55 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (murr@localhost)
by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA13991;
Sun, 3 May 1998 08:06:54 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 08:06:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: murr rhame
To: gabe@mystery.com
cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
In-Reply-To: <199805030340.XAA26323@angus.mystery.com>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sat, 2 May 1998, Gabe Helou wrote:
> If you're going to flip hamburgers, you should be a competent
> hamburger flipper. If you're going to run a mailing list, you
> should be a competent list admin.
Now we are getting close a pertinent topic. Would you or anyone else
care to define the skills needed to become a "competent list admin"?
I'll try a brief outline:
Technical skills:
Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software
used by the list such as:
Subscribe
Unsubscribe
Change subscription modes
Non-post
Digest
Banish
Etc.
Approve moderated posts if applicable
Archive commands (search and retrieve)
Special feature server commands as apply to software used
Read and understand most bounces. (some server software and or
add-on software largely supersedes this skill requirement)
Enter alternative subscriber addresses as may be required.
Diplomatic and personnel management skills:
General understanding of netiquette.
Define list charter.
Define list subscriber entrance requirements if applicable.
Define list posting guidelines.
Enforce posting guidelines with minimal impact on discussion.
Recruit, train and organize co-admins if applicable.
That's a start. Best I can do on short notice early Sunday morning.
Dissect my proposals will. There are two broad types of skills needed
to become a good list admin: technical skills and diplomatic skills.
IMHO, it is easier to train a technically ignorant list manager than
it is to train someone who has poor social skills in the diplomatic
arts.
- murr -
From list-managers-owner Sun May 3 06:37:19 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA21026; Sun, 3 May 1998 06:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA21017 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 06:30:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22542;
Sun, 3 May 1998 09:33:42 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980503093341.A22504@gsp.org>
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:33:41 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
References: <199805030340.XAA26323@angus.mystery.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:06:54AM -0400
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:06:54AM -0400, murr rhame wrote:
> Technical skills:
>
> Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software
> used by the list such as:
> [...]
Add:
Judgement to decide when to use server software and when not to; or,
in a related vein, which operations to automate and which to
do manually.
Understanding of limitations/bugs in various packages and ability
to choose between packages.
Basic understanding of SMTP protocol.
Basic understanding of DNS (including MX records).
Thorough understanding of RFC 822 headers.
Understanding of the mechanisms and defenses against various
forms of abuse, including mailbombing, forged subscriptions,
etc.
Knowledge of de facto conventions (e.g. "-request").
Ability to use whois/traceroute and other network tools to find
users, sites, admins, etc.
Awareness of privacy/copyright/etc. issues which have varying
impact on mailing list subscribers.
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Sun May 3 09:37:23 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA23740; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA23731 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:35:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7])
by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP
id MAA02812; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:37:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (murr@localhost)
by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA16610;
Sun, 3 May 1998 12:37:29 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 12:37:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: murr rhame
To: Rich Kulawiec
cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
In-Reply-To: <19980503093341.A22504@gsp.org>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, 3 May 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> Judgement to decide when to use server software and when not to; or,
> in a related vein, which operations to automate and which to
> do manually.
>
> Understanding of limitations/bugs in various packages and ability
> to choose between packages.
>
> Basic understanding of SMTP protocol.
>
> Basic understanding of DNS (including MX records).
>
> Thorough understanding of RFC 822 headers.
>
> Understanding of the mechanisms and defenses against various
> forms of abuse, including mailbombing, forged subscriptions,
> etc.
>
> Knowledge of de facto conventions (e.g. "-request").
>
> Ability to use whois/traceroute and other network tools to find
> users, sites, admins, etc.
You forgot to mention a complete understanding of digital signal
transmission and assembly language programming. Most of the skills
you have listed up to this point are more the purview of a site
manager, postmaster or sysadmin rather than a listowner. Someone in
the loop should have all of the skills you mentioned. I contend that
a good LISTOWNER need not have all of these skills. If all of these
skills were required before you could become a listowner, only
techno-wizards would be listowners. With proper support, you don't
need to be a rocket scientist to be a good listowner.
Up to this point in the skills discussion, we have not mentioned
splitting responsibilities into typical divisions. For example, I run
a site. I understand the operation and limitations of my server
software. My postmasters and sysadmins have a complete understanding
of SMTP and all of the other protocols and software needed to connect
my server to the net. De-facto list setup standards, such as a
"-request" address, are under the jurisdiction of the server admin.
While I do use traceroute/whois and such to tack down spam and other
net abuse sent to my personal mail and to my server, I almost never
use these tools as a list admin.
> Awareness of privacy/copyright/etc. issues which have varying
> impact on mailing list subscribers.
These are issues which the listowner needs to handle.
- murr -
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 00:08:57 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA08835; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:00:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA08826 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24831;
Sun, 3 May 1998 20:48:32 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org>
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:48:32 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
References: <19980503093341.A22504@gsp.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 12:37:28PM -0400
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 12:37:28PM -0400, murr rhame wrote:
> You forgot to mention a complete understanding of digital signal
> transmission and assembly language programming.
I didn't mention them because I was speaking seriously, not facetiously.
I stand by my statement: I feel those skills are necessary to be
an effective mailing list manager/owner. Those who lack them are at
best ineffective, at worst incompetent.
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 08:53:21 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA19757; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA19748 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id RAA13504; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:47:20 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id RAA08104; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:47:20 +0200
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:47:20 +0200
Message-Id: <199805041547.RAA08104@pythagoras>
From: Norbert Bollow
Prefer-Language: de, en, fr
To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
In-reply-to: (message from murr rhame on Sun, 3 May 1998 08:06:54 -0400 (EDT))
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Murr Rhame wrote:
> Now we are getting close a pertinent topic. Would you or anyone else
> care to define the skills needed to become a "competent list admin"?
> I'll try a brief outline:
This is an excellent summary - these are skills that a "competent list
admin" must have. Depending on the nature of the list some other skills
may be needed (e.g. if you run a list for churchplanters you'll should
be able to recognize false apostles for what they are.)
Those who have been arguing that there is a need for more in-depth
technical knowledge on the part of the list-admin are missing that
such technical knowledge can be provided by a site admin, a consultant
or some other knowledgeable person who is willing to help out whenever
the need arises.
The one point I'd like to see added is this:
Know it when outside technical advice is needed and be determined enough
to get it.
-- NB.
>
> Technical skills:
>
> Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software
> used by the list such as:
> Subscribe
> Unsubscribe
> Change subscription modes
> Non-post
> Digest
> Banish
> Etc.
> Approve moderated posts if applicable
> Archive commands (search and retrieve)
> Special feature server commands as apply to software used
>
> Read and understand most bounces. (some server software and or
> add-on software largely supersedes this skill requirement)
>
> Enter alternative subscriber addresses as may be required.
>
>
> Diplomatic and personnel management skills:
>
> General understanding of netiquette.
>
> Define list charter.
>
> Define list subscriber entrance requirements if applicable.
>
> Define list posting guidelines.
Add a comment here that there are legal aspects (e.g. related to copyright)
of what posts will be acceptable, as well as social ones.
>
> Enforce posting guidelines with minimal impact on discussion.
>
> Recruit, train and organize co-admins if applicable.
>
> - murr -
--
Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM
Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 09:08:12 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA19921; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:52:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk (ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk [128.98.1.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA19914 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:52:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 3506 invoked from network); 4 May 1998 15:54:52 -0000
Received: from mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.2)
by ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 4 May 1998 15:54:52 -0000
Received: (qmail 143 invoked by alias); 4 May 1998 15:54:52 -0000
Received: (qmail 2452 invoked from network); 4 May 1998 15:54:51 -0000
Received: from cray.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.7)
by mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 4 May 1998 15:54:51 -0000
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
Organization: CIS3 System and Networks Operations Group, DERA Malvern, UK
References: <19980503093341.A22504@gsp.org> <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org>
In-reply-to: <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org>
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 16:54:51 +0100
Message-ID: <28875.894297291@cray.eris.dera.gov.uk>
From: Christopher Samuel
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org>,
Rich Kulawiec writes:
> I stand by my statement: I feel those skills are necessary to be
> an effective mailing list manager/owner. Those who lack them are at
> best ineffective, at worst incompetent.
I'm afraid I disagree Rich.
What I would say is that most of the items in your list are the
province of the Postmaster/Sysadmin staff for the site. Thus simply by
having a good working relationship with them they can be both
effective and competent at running a list.
cheers!
Chris
--
Christopher Samuel +44 1684 894644 C.Samuel@eris.dera.gov.uk
N-115, Defence Evaluation & Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Malvern, UK
DISCLAIMER: The views expressed above are entirely those of the author and
do not represent the views, policy or understanding of any other entity.
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 09:23:33 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA20394; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA20387 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id SAA13822; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:16:20 +0200 (MET DST)
Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id SAA08107; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:16:20 +0200
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:16:20 +0200
Message-Id: <199805041616.SAA08107@pythagoras>
From: Norbert Bollow
Prefer-Language: de, en, fr
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
In-reply-to: <13825.894043420@monkeys.com> (rfg@monkeys.com)
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
> I will accept without proof that there are indeed many mailing lists on
> the net that large groups of people find to be very useful and valuable
> resources _and_ which are badly administered by people who don't know
> what they are doing.
Good, so I don't need to provide those three examples.
> In such cases, the ``value'' of the list is highly dependent upon who you
> ask. The subscribers may steadfastly assert that the thing is very valuable,
> whereas if you ask me, _I_ may say that (overall) the thing is mostly just
> a net-menace
Ok, as far as this we're in agreement.
> which ought to be quietly done away with.
It is here that we disagree. So the same thing is very valuable for some
people but a menace to others. And the good news is that the "menace"
part of the thing _can_ be fixed without telling any list-owner to close
down their lists.
I hereby offer to any list-owner to provide for a flat fee of US-$200 all
the technical knowledge and advice which is needed for properly securing
a mailing list so that it is no longer a net-menace (in respect to
subscription-bombing as well as in respect to the various methods employed
by spammers to obtain e-mail addresses from subscription lists and mailing
list archives.)
By the way, I really think that this service will be available cheaper
elsewhere; e.g. there are many great people on the net who give this kind
of advice for free, but since I have a very heavy workload I can make this
kind of offer only if I write something on the "price tag".
NB.
--
Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 10:22:50 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA22117; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:10:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA22108 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:10:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200])
by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14746
for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:12:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11108
for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:20:09 -0700
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 04 May 1998 18:16:20 +0200.
<199805041616.SAA08107@pythagoras>
X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved.
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:20:09 -0700
Message-ID: <11106.894302409@monkeys.com>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette"
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
In message <199805041616.SAA08107@pythagoras>,
Norbert Bollow wrote:
>I hereby offer to any list-owner to provide for a flat fee of US-$200 all
>the technical knowledge and advice which is needed for properly securing
>a mailing list so that it is no longer a net-menace (in respect to
>subscription-bombing as well as in respect to the various methods employed
>by spammers to obtain e-mail addresses from subscription lists and mailing
>list archives.)
>
>By the way, I really think that this service will be available cheaper
>elsewhere; e.g. there are many great people on the net who give this kind
>of advice for free, but since I have a very heavy workload I can make this
>kind of offer only if I write something on the "price tag".
I do feel that Norbert's offer is reasonable, and that it may in fact be
accepted by at least some list admins.
For my part, what _I_ am willing to offer is to give any list admin who
is running a list without subscription confirmations the ISBN number of
that new O'Reilly mailing list book. (I wish I could do more, but that
is all I have time for and is, in any case, all that should really be
required.)
-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/
-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 12:07:49 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25290; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:52:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA25281 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:52:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa01105; 4 May 98 11:54 PDT
Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf)
via UUCP; Mon, 04 May 98 09:03:41 PDT
for List-Managers@greatcircle.com
To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
From: Tim Bowden
Message-ID:
Date: Mon, 04 May 98 08:44:33 PDT
In-Reply-To: <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org>
Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community!
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Rich Kulawiec writes:
> I stand by my statement: I feel those skills are necessary to be
> an effective mailing list manager/owner. Those who lack them are at
> best ineffective, at worst incompetent.
Oh, yeah? Well, I say those who store all their concern and regard
into inhuman techie trunks are like Masters and Johnson stringing
electrodes to bodies in motion; they mistake the manner for the
matter. Any fool replicant can duplicate code mechanics with
Qmail and assimilate gross rote ituitions of sendmail and the
result would be the same had Dr Frankinstein attempted to create
his monster out of stolen rings and watches and eyeglasses,
neglecting the heart and soul.
Such a cyborg sense of a mailing list would figure all was well
no matter the turmoil, anguish, woe and off-topic squealing within
were he to have a good bounce ratio and low intrusion rate to his
list. Leaving out the heart and soul, you could train a reasonably
bright orangutan to make a fine listowner by that criteria.
Ahh, but the listowner for me is one who does not become
distracted by the pure mechanics of his toys but instead
relishes the topic and the humans who bring it to life.
Without that heart and mind, a list is but a tinkling symbol,
a wind-up toy, rendering whizz and flash and smoke and
mirrors, signifying nothing.
To answer your reflex question, yep, NerdNosh has all
components, thank you very much. I worry about heartbeat
and soul substance, and allow an excellent engineer to
keep the wires humming.
For you old hands, substitute Kinsey up there for Masters and
Johnson, and `gamma minus machine minder' for orangutan.
Ain't this fun?
mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden)
Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)!
mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org
the command: subscribe nerdnosh
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 13:38:10 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA27240; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA27231 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:30:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01796;
Mon, 4 May 1998 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980504163356.A1773@gsp.org>
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:33:56 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
References: <199805041731.KAA26731@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: <199805041731.KAA26731@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>; from Joe Smith on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 10:31:48AM -0700
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 10:31:48AM -0700, Joe Smith wrote:
> The correct thing to do is select mailing list software that does NOT
> require intimate understanding of MX records, bounces, nondelivery reports,
> etc just to use the software.
Nonsense. No piece of software is a substitute for understanding the basics.
The correct thing to do is to spend the time (I'd estimate a couple of
weeks, tops) to study the online resources which are available in plentiful
quantity and learn how all this works before trying to use it. I have no
idea why so many people are advocating that list managers should remain
ignorant, but perhaps this in part explains why so many mailing lists
are so badly run.
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 13:46:53 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA27363; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA27356 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01833;
Mon, 4 May 1998 16:37:51 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980504163750.B1773@gsp.org>
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:37:50 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: Tim Bowden , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
References: <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Bowden on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:44:33AM -0700
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:44:33AM -0700, Tim Bowden wrote:
> Rich Kulawiec writes:
>
> > I stand by my statement: I feel those skills are necessary to be
> > an effective mailing list manager/owner. Those who lack them are at
> > best ineffective, at worst incompetent.
>
> Such a cyborg sense of a mailing list would figure all was well
> no matter the turmoil, anguish, woe and off-topic squealing within
> were he to have a good bounce ratio and low intrusion rate to his list.
I simply gave the technical criteria that I felt were required, and I
gave them as *additions* to a pre-existing list -- which had technical
and non-technical requirements. I made no attempt to list additional
non-technical requirements, which SHOULD NOT be taken as a statement
that I feel there aren't any: I simply declined to list them because
I felt considerably more thought was required before doing so.
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 14:22:27 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28303; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA28282 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:08:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126])
by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14030
for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:49 -0500 (CDT)
Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.136.212.25])
by carrot.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26624
for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:50 -0500
Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02757 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:47 -0500
From: Mike Nolan
Message-Id: <199805042110.QAA02757@celery.tssi.com>
Subject: Software vs List Management Skills
To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:46 -0500 (CDT)
Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> Nonsense. No piece of software is a substitute for understanding the basics.
Hear, hear!!
No list management software is so good that it can replace 100% of the
list manager's intellect, whether that be for dealing with clueless
subscribers, arcane bounces, mail systems that refuse to follow the
standards, or any other standard, rule, or protocol that one might envision
as being applicable to mailing lists.
And I think that while a healthy dose of technical information is useful
to list managers, it isn't an absolute requirement if there is someone
else in the loop who does have those skills and can be utilized as the need
arises, such as a system or mail adminstrator.
My experience is that most new list managers will pick up quite a bit of
information about e-mail from running their lists, but I think it is
incumbent on the system/mail managers NOT to inflict poorly configured new
lists upon the Internet. These days I think that means not allowing
new lists without a confirm requirement for new subscribers unless there
is a mighty good reason for it. (I can't THINK of such a reason right off
the top of my head, but I'm willing to allow that one might exist.)
I would go even further. I don't think that new Internet hookups should be
permitted if they have wide open SMTP ports that don't prohibit relaying
from unknown parties, among other security holes. And I think that the
backbones should develop some real, ahem, backbone and disconnect sites
or even entire networks that consistently abuse the net.
--
Mike Nolan
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 14:28:06 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28361; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:10:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA28345 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id OAA02829; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199805042113.OAA02829@shell7.ba.best.com>
From: Cyndi Norman
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
CC: cnorman@best.com
Subject: Listowner Skills
Reply-to: cnorman@best.com
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I haven't seen something yet in this thread that I consider a very
important listowner requirement. Though it's one that just about everyone
on List Managers already has, or they wouldn't be here.
Time.
I have seen lists decend into chaos because the listowner seems to be
absent. It's okay for a subscriber to be one of those people who logs in
every week or so and skims through their email. No listowner should be
like that.
Every list needs at least one designated person (who does not have
to be the actual owner, and certainly doesn't have to be the admin) who
reads the list daily and deals with problems as they come up. Problems
include: unsubscribe requests posted to the list (they tend to snowball),
flame wars (assuming these are undesirable to you), personal attacks (see
flame wars), posts by members that violate the list rules (like ads).
This person (the list mom) needs to be able to do three different things:
1) post to the list when needed to curb flames and inappropriate posts;
2) write subscribers individually and deal with problems they may be
having; 3) have the power to yank people from the list or put them on
non-post status, as available and needed. There also needs to be at least
one person available on a daily basis at the list-owner/admin address to
deal with questions and problems.
Unfortunately, this requirement makes it damn hard to have a mailing list
and take a vacation, or have a personal/family crisis. Way back when my
list was purely manually run (I'll never do *that* again!), it was
impossible to have a backup person and I ended up with a lot of problems on
my hands when I moved crosscountry or otherwise didn't have net access for
a few days. But it's the listowners that never/rarely read their own lists
and/or don't log in every day on most days that concern me.
Cyndi
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman
something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com
__________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 16:22:19 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA00758; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:16:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA00746 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:16:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa28406; 4 May 98 16:19 PDT
Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf)
via UUCP; Mon, 04 May 98 15:01:04 PDT
for List-Managers@greatcircle.com
To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
From: Tim Bowden
Message-ID:
Date: Mon, 04 May 98 14:44:10 PDT
In-Reply-To: <19980504163750.B1773@gsp.org>
Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community!
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Rich Kulawiec writes:
> I simply gave the technical criteria that I felt were required, and I
> gave them as *additions* to a pre-existing list -- which had technical
> and non-technical requirements. I made no attempt to list additional
> non-technical requirements, which SHOULD NOT be taken as a statement
> that I feel there aren't any: I simply declined to list them because
> I felt considerably more thought was required before doing so.
Understood. And if this is the proper forum, I'd like to see some
of those requirements listed.
I mean, if this is the proper forum, why, I'd say
(1) Knowledge of or facility with the topic.
(2) A true and abiding regard for that subject.
(3) Dedication and time and energy.
(4) Experience with the cycles of one-to-many list dynamics, and
(5) A quick and sure hand in monitoring that spectrum.
(6) Either the hands-on ability or an incessant sniveling personality
to convince site adminstrators of the need for certain features, e.g.,.
(a) verified enrollment
(b) a quick and easy twit ban
(c) the list roster is open to none but the owner
What else?
I wonder if there are list managers who excel in both categories, the
technical and the operational? When I see here comments like, `I'm not
responsible for private mail,' and `I don't care if my list is pirated
as long as it runs like it should,' I wonder.
Of course, if this isn't on-topic for this list, forget I said anything.
mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden)
Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)!
mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org
the command: subscribe nerdnosh
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 20:52:19 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05861; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:38:53 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05851 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:38:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from chaos.taylored.com (chaos.taylored.com [206.53.224.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA28705 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 12:33:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 9196 invoked by uid 100); 2 May 1998 19:36:01 -0000
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 14:36:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Chael Hall
To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: I hate it when that happens...
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Here's a message I got from a subscriber after they had been moved to the
bounces list due to a full mailbox. Enjoy...
--Chael
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: bouncie bouncie?
I keep getting a message from the bounces list, but I'm not subscribed to
it. If you were having a problem with reaching my account, here's what
happened.
3 weeks ago my computer suffered a physical breakage. A cat accidentally
fell off the monitor and snagged the wire for the keyboard. Poor kitty!
Poor keyboard! The connector inside on the motherboard, which was already
loose, snapped off and I had to send the computer in for repairs. I asked
my dad if he'd pick up my email, but he thinks that because my email isn't
"important" stuff (like the family contacting me to tell me about
appointments or stuff like that) that if it just piled up and I had to get
rid of it, it wouldn't really matter, so he didn't get it for me. I asked
my sister, but her husband said no (even though it's really none of his
business.) At any rate, that's what happened.
At any rate, I just wanted to let you know what happened so you wouldn't
have the wrong impression of me and think I'm an idiot. If you want to
think that about my dad, feel free. I do love him and he means the world
to me... but he's still an idiot. :)
Lt. Trakal
Operative of the Galaxy Police SIU
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 20:57:07 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05841; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:38:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05833 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:38:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from behemoth.tamu.edu (BEHEMOTH.TAMU.EDU [128.194.44.99]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA23781; Sat, 2 May 1998 06:43:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: psittler@behemoth.tamu.edu
Received: from localhost (psittler@localhost) by behemoth.tamu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA05211; Sat, 2 May 1998 07:45:14 -0500
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 07:45:14 -0500 (CDT)
To: Darren Wyn Rees
cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: List statistics, time & motions etc
In-Reply-To: <354cd441.2313110@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Sat, 2 May 1998, Darren Wyn Rees wrote:
> Do I really need these figures? Well, yes, as I think it's
> opened my eyes to some 'odd' things : I'm looking at figures
> that say that one list has three times as much posting activity
> compared to a list with twice as many subscribers ... and I'm
> working out 'why is that'. That said, I'd still much like
> *your* opinion on the matter.
So be it. This will sound like an oversimplification, but. . .
People are different.
People behave differently.
Lists are different.
People on lists behave differently.
Some lists are seasonal.
Some lists die. All people do.
> Sincerely,
> --
> Darren Wyn Rees Email merlin@merlin.netlink.co.uk
And now, for a little bit of the wisdom of the ages. . .
"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were
beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized.
I was to learn later in life, that we tend to meet any new
situation by reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it
can be for creating the illusion of progress, while only
producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."
--- Petronius Gaius (The Arbiter) 60 A.D. ---
-------
Paul M. Sittler (root) | / / (_)__ __ ____ __ | The choice
Leviathan System Admin | / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / | of a GNU
email: p-sittler@tamu.edu | /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ | Generation
Phone: 409 845-9689 A 486 is a terrible thing to waste.
Pager: 409 759-1258 A 386SX is a terrible thing.
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:01:13 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05891; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05881 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (antiochus-fe0.ultra.net [146.115.8.188]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA22624 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 08:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from voyager (d9.dial-2.wal.ma.ultra.net [146.115.77.41]) by antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) with SMTP id LAA24335 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:34:55 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980503153556.013c0e00@pop.ma.ultranet.com>
X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 11:35:56 -0400
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Stan Ryckman
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 09:33 AM 5/3/98 -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
>On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:06:54AM -0400, murr rhame wrote:
>> Technical skills:
>>
>> Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software
>> used by the list such as:
>> [...]
>
>Add:
[snip]
>
> Understanding of limitations/bugs in various packages and ability
> to choose between packages.
There may be no choice for a given site. Having that choice is not a
technical skill, anyway.
> Basic understanding of SMTP protocol.
'Scuse me, since when does a listowner need to get SMTP working?
> Basic understanding of DNS (including MX records).
'Scuse me? I think you're confusing listowner with site administrator.
Understanding MX missles would be just as useful for most listowners.
> Thorough understanding of RFC 822 headers.
No. Maybe "basic" here (Sender vs. From vs. Reply-To) but you
won't find experts even agreeing about other things (such as the
correct use of Resent-* headers by mailing lists). Of little use to
a listowner except maybe to explain Reply-To to really novice subscribers.
[snip]
> Knowledge of de facto conventions (e.g. "-request").
Unless mail addressed to *-request at his list will actually be delivered
to him, this is irrelevant to a listowner. Addressing is generally
a function of the MLM software in use. Rephrased as "knowledge of the
addressing conventions of the MLM software being used," I might agree.
> Ability to use whois/traceroute and other network tools to find
> users, sites, admins, etc.
Overkill. Site admins may need these things. Listowners hardly do.
Furthermore, many listowners *only* have email access to run the list,
not any login privileges, and this is sufficient when the MLM software
supports it.
> Awareness of privacy/copyright/etc. issues which have varying
> impact on mailing list subscribers.
I don't see why it's necessary rather than nice-to-have.
Cheers,
Stan
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:06:13 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05904; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:27 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05894 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from izzy4.izzy.net (izzy4.izzy.net [198.108.102.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA29433 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy4.izzy.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) id SAA14515 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:16:19 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: izzy4.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to atbbs!dbsmith using -f
>Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109)
id AA02557; 03 May 98 18:14:27 -0500
From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith)
Date: 03 May 98 17:42:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailin
Message-ID:
References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org>
Organization: American Tune BBS
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Content-Type: text
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
RK>On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:03:55PM -0700, Jason Rasku wrote:
RK>> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
RK>> > Name three.
RK>>
RK>> I know you only asked for three, but I gave
RK>> you aproximately 20 that I know for sure, and, probably close to a
RK>> thousand other lists. [...]
On Fri May 1 03:27:59 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
RK>I don't think Ron is suggesting any such thing. I think what Ron is
RK>suggesting is that people who do not know the difference between "listserv"
RK>and "a mailing list", what an MX record does, what EXPN and VRFY are
RK>and what they do, and similar bits of information are simply not
RK>competent to run a mailing list.
RK>This does not make such people Bad People, simply incompetent in one
RK>particular area of life. The remedy is to either (a) convince them
RK>to achieve competency or (b) get them to turn the reins over to
RK>someone who is.
This begins to sound like a problem of definitions.
You sound convinced that knowledge of the mechanics of one way to run a
maillist is essential for running one. I use an entirely different
mechanism, by way of an Internet gateway on my DOS BBS. You don't have
to know how to use that mechanisms; that doesn't make you incompetent.
BTW, all my lists are subscribers-only-post and confirmation-required.
I don't do that the same way you do; that doesn't make me incompetent.
If a maillist is a particular technological structure of hardware and
software, then I suppose knowing how to run that hardware and software
is required for competency. If a maillist is a discussion among people,
then knowing how to run a particular (albeit common) set of programs and
hardware is not essential; it is only handy. In the old west, not
everyone carried a gun or wore a badge.
And that pesky definition problem again.
Is my boss competent to run the place where I work? There's a lot of
computer work involved, and he's clueless regarding computers. So I
suppose he isn't, in that sense. But since I do all that stuff anyway,
he is competent. He was competent enough to hire me.
Is he competent to shoot a holdup guy, if we get robbed? Probably not.
I might be, but that's not vital either. That's what the County
Sherriff's office has all those guys with guns & badges for.
So for "running a maillist" as a hands-on, jack-of-all-trades tech,
well, I suppose all that stuff you mentioned is life-or-death vital.
But for "running a maillist" as an intelligent person who knows how to
guide and participate in a conversation, no it is not.
Best option would be for all these "little town" maillists to have a
technically competent "sherriff." But that doesn't mean the world of
maillists should only be made up of sherriffs, if you will. I think the
point has already been made that Site Admins can effectively act in that
peacekeeper capacity. Being the best sherriff is not necessarily te
same as the best mayor.
Makes me wonder why folks gave up on BBS networks -- where after all,
the Sysops provided the necessary technical savvy and security, and the
conference hosts conducted the discussions. Maybe someday, when
civilization reaches this part of the High Plains.
* SLMR 2.1a * You're only old once. It just seems longer than that.
--
>> David B. Smith | Email sysop@atbbs.com, dbsmith@izzy.net
>> Sysop, American Tune BBS | DISCLAIMER: Hey, I -own- the place!
>> Anyway, my views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's.
>> Host of DEATHLAW Maillist. "Subscribe deathlaw" to listserv@atbbs.com
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:07:28 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA06629; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA06620 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:04:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from rsk@localhost)
by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06036;
Tue, 5 May 1998 00:07:47 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980505000745.A5862@gsp.org>
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:07:45 -0400
From: Rich Kulawiec
To: list-managers@greatcircle.com
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
References: <199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1
In-Reply-To: <199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>; from Joe Smith on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:03:17PM -0700
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:03:17PM -0700, Joe Smith wrote:
> It is not the list-manager's job to become the sysadmin/postmaster for
> the site. [...]
Nor have I suggested that they do so. I have suggested that they should
have a basic understanding of the mechanics of mail and mailing lists so
that they have a fighting chance of dealing with the 1001 things that
can and do go wrong. As a mailing list owner, this is their responsibility.
Those who do not wish to have this responsibility should not attempt
to run mailing lists.
> Lists are for general people, not just the techies.
They certainly are. But *operating* one, as opposed to participating in one,
requires a modicum of knowledge, easily acquired using online resources
alone at zero cost -- except for one's time. Frankly, anyone too lazy
to spend a couple of weeks (maximum!) learning the rudiments of how all
this works deserves all the grief he/she will surely get, sooner or later.
Again, I find myself amazed that people are defending the viewpoint
that mailing list owners should remain in ignorance. What's the problem
with learning something? Or is it easier to just label that body
of knowledge as "just for the techies", attempt to dump the problem on them,
whoever "them" is, than it is to actually use one's brain?
---Rsk
Rich Kulawiec
rsk@gsp.org
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:37:32 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA07834; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:33:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA07809 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:33:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70])
by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA36276
; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:36:29 -0700
X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To: <19980505000745.A5862@gsp.org>
References: <199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>; from Joe
Smith on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:03:17PM -0700
<199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:31:49 -0700
To: Rich Kulawiec , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 9:07 PM -0700 5/4/98, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> Again, I find myself amazed that people are defending the viewpoint
> that mailing list owners should remain in ignorance.
I'm not. As long as SOMEONE is around that knows that sort of stuff,
why should everyone be forced to?
Now, there's no justification for sites with nobody watching the store,
but not every environment is set up so that everyone runs things alone.
--
Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? )
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
+
From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:41:31 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA07769; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:28:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA07762 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:28:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70])
by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA37384
; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:31:42 -0700
X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com
Message-Id:
In-Reply-To:
References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com>
<19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:30:02 -0700
To: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM
From: Chuq Von Rospach
Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailin
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
At 3:42 PM -0700 5/3/98, David B. Smith wrote:
> If a maillist is a particular technological structure of hardware and
> software, then I suppose knowing how to run that hardware and software
> is required for competency.
*Someone* has to know how to run the servers. But the task of running
the server and the task of running the list are not necessarily the
same person. I think this list is stacked with folks who more or less
run their own show, and that bias is quite evident.
My job is to do the plumbing, so that the folks at Apple who use mail
lists can focus on content. A bit part of the work I've done building
things is to set things up so people DON'T need to know the grimy
details to get THEIR job done.
In fact, I'd break it down into three jobs, which can heavily overlap
depending on the situation -- the person who runs the list server, the
person who runs the list, and the person who manages the content on
that list (as moderator, list mom, friendly uncle, or whatever). So you
need three separate skills definitions, and it may or may not be
multiple people.
Server operator: general server operations. postmaster mail. Intercedes
when all hell breaks loose. Makes sure everything runs.
List operator: handles the specific of the list. The primary difference
beween this one and teh server operator is that I view this as where
bounce processing and subscribe/unsubscribe intervention handles for a
list.
content operator: moderator, content cop, list mom. Name your poison.
The person who's actually IN the list making decisions on what is and
isn't posted to the list.
Two "jobs" are operational, one editorial. And how you split up the
"jobs" depends on the people, the server, and the organizational. For
most lists, I'm server and list operator, but for most lists on my
site, others are content -- and it makes sense for a technical person
to deal with the technical stuff, and let the folks worry about the
information.
> Makes me wonder why folks gave up on BBS networks -- where after all,
> the Sysops provided the necessary technical savvy and security, and the
> conference hosts conducted the discussions. Maybe someday, when
> civilization reaches this part of the High Plains.
Because the costs of the internet dropped to the point where it was
cost effecive to connect to the net, instead of dealing with the BBS
with/without a phone dialup setup. Eventually, technology just overtook
BBSes. And if you look around, a bunch of them (and/or their operators)
are actualy still around, but doing it via Internet instead now in
various forms.
sort of like asking why folks switched USENET from phone/UUCP
connections to NNTP connections. Because the technologies and costs
changed....
--
Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? )
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com)
Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com)
+
From list-managers-owner Tue May 5 10:38:30 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA24572; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24565 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:23:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from valleys.ndirect.co.uk (root@mail.valleys.ndirect.co.uk [195.99.165.238]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id SAA10982 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:26:07 +0100
Received: from localhost (merlin@localhost)
by valleys.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05128;
Tue, 5 May 1998 19:03:40 +0100
X-Authentication-Warning: valleys.ndirect.co.uk: merlin owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:03:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Darren Wyn Rees
X-Sender: merlin@valleys
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM
Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing]
Message-ID:
X-No-Archive: yes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
Stan Ryckman on 03 May 1998:
>'Scuse me, since when does a listowner need to get SMTP working?
>From the start I assume (in my case, and IMHO increasingly so... it seems,
for other people). - eg. If you're running a list at an Academic
Institution with a paid staff & 'technostructure', yes (you're quite
right); but if you're running a list on the back of old 486 in your attic or
garage (or wherever)... then you really need to 'get SMTP working' etc.
(Strange things is from my point of view, I telephoned one of my
ISP's technical support staff two months ago and asked them a
rudimentary question on SMTP and they responded ... "err... you need
a consultant for that kinda question." So I bought O'Reilly's book
'Sendmail' and said, buggar the consultancy fees!)
--
Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk
From list-managers-owner Tue May 5 11:24:15 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25678; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nisto.com (nisto.com [207.34.64.161]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25670 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:14:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [207.34.64.181] by nisto.com
with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Tue, 5 May 1998 12:20:34 -0600
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Message-Id:
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:21:54 -0600
To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, ListMom-Talk@lists.SKYLIST.net
From: Grant Neufeld
Subject: Spam mistaken for list posting
Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM
Precedence: bulk
I received a very angry email from someone today.
They had received a spam which looked to them like it had been sent to them
from my grantcgi-announce mailing list. The "To:" field of the spam
contained the address of my list (which is what made the recipient think
they got it from my list).
I was able to immediately see that the message was not from my list (the
list is moderated - I'm the only one who can post to it). However, the user
(their judgement clouded by the annoyance of receiving spam - something I
can relate to) upon finding they couldn't unsubscribe from my list (since
they weren't actually a subscriber) proceeded to send out some mail to
various addresses (including an AT&T admin because the From: address was an
att.com address) to have me dealt with for the spam (which I didn't do).
Now, I certainly agree with and advocate challenging spammers at every
opportunity, but here is a case where I too was a victim of the spammer
(although the user did not know that from their limited understanding of
the situation).
I have responded to the user (and the various addresses they Cc'd) to
clarify the situation and make sure they understand that I am not the
spammer. I've also asked them to forward a copy of the complete headers for
the spam message so I can try to take action on it, too.
Has anyone here had to deal with a situation like this before? Any
recommendations?
Thanks.
--
http://www.nisto.com/ O-
I accept MIME PGP: 4077 8306 9115 94B0 CEA6 F4F4 3B9A 9482 D158 7B9A
http://www.nisto.com/grant/pgpkey.txt
From list-managers-owner Tue May 5 18:23:42 1998
Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA04096; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:12:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA04083 for