Saudi Ties to 9/11 Detailed in Documents Suppressed Since 2002

After years of political wrangling, the suppressed section of a 2002 congressional report that detailed possible ties between the Saudi government and the 9/11 terrorist attacks was released today. The classified documents have been the source of heated speculation for years, as they highlighted alleged links between high-ranking members of the Saudi royal family and the 9/11 hijackers.

Many political figures who had previously seen the report led the charge calling for its release, including former Sen. Bob Graham, who said the 28 pages “point a very strong finger at Saudi Arabia,” and Minnesota Congressman Rick Nolan, who said the pages “confirm that much of the rhetoric preceding the U.S. attack on Iraq was terribly wrong.”

The suppressed pages, redacted in parts, detail circumstantial evidence of ties among Saudi government officials, intelligence agents, and several of the hijackers.

“While in the United States, some of the September 11th hijackers were in contact with or received assistance from, individuals who may be connected with the Saudi government,” reads the report, which added that FBI sources believed at least two of those individuals were Saudi intelligence agents.

The report also mentions that numbers found in the phonebook of Abu Zubaydah, a detainee currently held in Guantánamo, could be traced to a company in Denver, Colorado, connected to former Saudi ambassador to the U.S. Prince Bandar bin Sultan.

One of the most notable figures mentioned is Omar al-Bayoumi, alleged by the report to have likely been a Saudi intelligence agent. Al-Bayoumi was in close contact with hijackers Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar, providing them financial assistance during their time in the United States and even helping them find an apartment. Bayoumi in turn is believed to have been on the payroll of the Saudi Ministry of Defense and was regularly in receipt of large lump sums of money from the Saudi Ministry of Finance and other undisclosed arms of the government.

Another figure highlighted in the documents is Osama Bassnan, a Saudi citizen who was an associate of al-Bayoumi and lived in an apartment nearby al-Hazmi and al-Midhar. According to the report, Bassnan “made a comment to an FBI source after the attacks suggesting that he did more for the hijackers than al-Bayoumi did.” Bassnan and his wife received regular payments from the wife of Bandar bin Sultan. On one occasion, Bassnan is said to have received a check directly from Bandar’s account.

Fahd al-Thumairy, a former Saudi consular officer in the United States who served as an imam at a mosque attended by al-Hazmi and al-Midhar, is also mentioned briefly, as is Saleh al-Hussayen, who is described in the report as a “Saudi Interior Ministry employee/official.” Al-Hussayen stayed at the same hotel as one of the hijackers in the days before the attack. While being interviewed by FBI agents after the attacks, al-Hussayen “either passed out or feigned a seizure,” causing the interview to be terminated. He later managed to successfully flee the country.

Much of the information in the 28 pages is not new and has been mentioned in previously released documents on the 9/11 investigation. As such, the public release of these suppressed pages is unlikely to precipitate major changes in the relationship between the United States and the Saudi government. In a statement issued on Friday, the Saudi Embassy in the United States said that it “welcomes the release” of the suppressed pages, saying that they exonerate Riyadh of any direct role in the attacks.

While the report does not find any smoking gun pointing to official Saudi involvement, it does highlight one consistently troubling theme of the kingdom’s response to the attacks: its refusal to cooperate with investigators seeking to uncover information about the hijackers. As the report notes, “In testimony and interviews, a number of FBI agents and CIA officers complained to the [inquiry] about a lack of Saudi cooperation in terrorism investigations both before and after the September 11th attacks.”

Referencing a May 1996 Director of Central Intelligence memo, the report cited agency beliefs that “the Saudis had stopped providing background information or other assistance on Bin Ladin because Bin Ladin had ‘too much information about official Saudi dealings with Islamic extremists in the 1980s for Riyadh to deliver him into U.S. hands.’”

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It does not come as a surprise when the victims’ families do not comprehend the truth that Saudi Arabia is not responsible for the 9\11 attacks.
They were being fed that Saudi is the one accountable for it to alter their anger, yet, without having any prove for this accusation. I feel sorry for the families who were waiting to know the truth but the truth rests with the closest people to them. Those who are lying and covering their own wronging to their fellow citizens.

i see what you are saying- but all of the evidence indicates elements within the Saudi security agencies where working in cahoots with the masterminds of the whole sordid show in the USA. It seems the Saudi’s role was to provide the Wahhabi patsies. It was the CIA’s role to provide them all with visa’s to the USA- which were fast-tracked without the usual checks.

This type of US/Saudi relationship goes all the way back to Brezinski and his mujaheddin proxies in Afganistan against the Russians. One of whom was- of course- Bin Laden. Many of who became the Taliban. They became Al Qaeda, then AQ in Iraq, Then ISIS, Nusra, etc bring us right up the current Middle East Shit Storm.

When soem FBI agents operating outside of the plan stumbled onto various plotters- higher ups stepped an in and stuymied any investigations. All of this was later characterised as merely ‘incompetence’ and a lack of inter-agency sharing. What a crock of shit! If that’s what it was: why were the heads of the FBI, CIA etc all promoted after 9/11? Why not investigated, demoted, prosecuted, fired? They were promoted because the 9/11 job went according to plan (largely) .

The Saudis and Obama and Bandar Bin whatever can try to downplay it but it’s out now, none of this can be labeled speculation anymore. Just think what they would have found it if the investigation had the support of the US President at the time.

Prince Bandar Bin Sultan himself is nothing but a CIA tool. So Bandar’s involvement only further establishes that the CIA was involved in 9/11. Mossad was probably involved too. But it all happened because a few very powerful men in the CIA and the Pentagon wanted it to happen.
The FBI then covered it up.

Exactly! Not only that: Bandar was intimately involved with the Bush’s! I am taking close personal friends. So much so his nickname was Bandar Bush! What a coincidence! There are NO Coincidences! It remonds of how when John Hinkley shot Reagan- his father was a close personal friend of Vice President George Bush- the man who stood the most to gian had Reagan died. Yet this link was dismissed by the press as a meaningless coincidence. What are the odds?!

That same George Bush Snr who was having breakfast on 9/11 with Osama Bin Laden’s brother in law at the Carlyle Group meeting in Washington!

Coinkidinks? Are we morons? Seriously? Are we cpplete an utter stooges with no sense of reality?

People actually still believe the official 9/11 story? I would like to ask the author of the above article: do you still believe it Murtaza?

If it was a cheese there would be virtually no actual cheese as it is all just holes! Yet somehow they sold it.

From the impossible collapses, the un-investigated bizarre connections, the lack of air defense, the bizarrely successful amateur pilots, the insider trading, the forewarning, the prescience of PNAC- all the way to that paper passport fluttering down to the street in New York City when Titanium black boxes were vaporised.

A Monumental and obvious LIE!

Probably the biggest lie in human history. Certainly the text book definition of Goebbels BIG LIE.

The biggest lie in history – you could have some competition there. Why has the US or anyone else never gone back to the moon, if it was so easy more than 40 years ago?
Why are we planning Mars trips instead. Why don’t we humans have a permanent base on the moon?

Well- the moon landings (or non landings) didn’t result in the invasion of multiple countries- the destabilization of the Middle East – the loss of civil liberties, the rise of ISIS, the emergent police state, torture, drone assassinations, the clash of civilizations.

The moon business is odd: why would you plan to go to Mars before you can establish a base in the moon? Insane.

Well George Bush Sr was also CIA. So it all ties up neatly.
Who is more powerful in the US today? The CIA or the Whitehouse? Can you even have someone in the Whitehouse that the CIA does not approve of or want there?
Was Obama’s mother CIA?
What are the Clintons’ CIA connections, was Bill the golden boy of the CIA?

The CIA is enormously powerful- yet they- like NSA- and all the other alphabet agencies- serve masters above.CIA has always served Wall Street: all the way back to Allen Dulles. Just like Smedley Butler served Standard Oil and united fruit before that. The entire apparatus of government serves the elites- which is to say- the monied.

What a disappointing write-up on this topic. Since the release, I’ve been going back and looking at other articles/documents pertaining to the individuals discussed in this report. It turns out there’s a lot there, and putting the pieces together is pretty fascinating.

Apparently, the Intercept couldn’t be bothered to look into to this with any depth –instead, providing a fluff piece worthy of a Time Magazine post on their blog.

What’s worse is the decision to use the term, “smoking gun.” This isn’t a serious term. It’s a hack phrase for the kind of people who watch Hollywood Insider, or whatever.

A rational analysis by a serious journalist would have merely looked at the facts, compared them with information that had been released previously to see if they offer insight IN CONTEXT, and presented the findings.

But apparently, The Intercept is striving to achieve a more fluffy, entertaining tone. Maybe we’ll see more stories about how pets affect the mental state of their owners. Or how about Obama’s golf game.

I agree unfortunately am- it’s like some page 15 thing- a half story- some vague commentary. Triply so as the is the Intercept- supposedly an outlet devoted to unmasking US power with a penchant for matters of the deep state, war, terrorism, surveillance and corporate malfeasance.

I have looked- and I have not found- and I challenge anyone to show me any definitive statement from GkennGreenwald concerning 9/11 truth- the same for Poitras, Snowden, the author of the above article, and others who seem to work directly on issues that stem in large measure from 9/11. The silence is deafening. Others like Tabibi, Assange, Chomsky have made comments- all to varying degrees in support of the story Bush, Cheney, Runsfeld, Wilfowitz canonised. However not one of those individuals have addressed the actual substance of claims made by highly creddible, sincere, rational members of the truth movement like Kevin Ryan, David Ray Griffin – or Architects and Engineers fir 9/11 Truth.

So the US knew this by 2002, that this was all Saudi nationals..everyone involved Saudi. In response we’ve started wars in Iraq, Libya, and Syria. Right. Go and vote for Hillary who’s 50% funded by Saudi Arabia.

I has only seen very brief video footage of the WTC towers attack on Indian TV in New Delhi on September 11 2011.
I watched some 9/11 videos of the planes crashing and the people jumping and the buildings falling today on Youtube.
People who live or work in high-rises should all have parachutes as a precaution. Wonder if these are now available in such buildings.

as an aside- building 7 of the WTC was called the Salomon Building after the Bank headquartered there. It turns out that very bank brokered a secret deal for the US with Saudi Arabia back in 1974 for Saudi petrodollars to purchase US Treasuries. Bloomberg just ran an article detailing the deal. I can’t help feeling it is connected with 9/11… the halt to securities trading afterwards- the destruction of financial documents in WTC 1, 2 and 7…

and weren’t there a couple of Saudis spotted in Oklahoma? Or where they Iraqi’s? One never can tell…

It’s disgusting that these carnival of jackals, including Bush’s best bud Bandar whom supported both 9/11 and Chechen terrorists, were allowed to go free while mostly random people in the region were rounded up for bounties and sent to Gitmo. The Bushes are total fools.

Correction – I just copied the Youtube video title earlier, actually Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer only called Anwar al-Awlaki an FBI asset, did not say he was a triple agent, whatever that means.
Anwar al-Awlaki Was an FBI asset Before 9/11 – Lt Col. Anthony Shaffer on video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmluzUxLhXU

“According to a September 27, 2001, FBI transcription, obtained through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit (Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of State and Federal Bureau of Investigations (No. 1:12-cv-00893)), al-Aulaqi purchased airline tickets for the following 9/11 hijackers:

Mohammed Atta, America West Airlines, 08/13/2001, for a flight from Washington, DC, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.
S. Suqami, Southwest Airlines, 07/10/2001, for a flight from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, to Orlando, Florida.
Al-Sheri, National Airlines, 08/01/2001, for a flight from San Francisco, California, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.”

“FBI undated email, likely in 2004 after Al Aulaqi had moved to Yemen – “… Apparently the 9/11 Commission is interested in interviewing Anwar Al-Aulaqi and some members are en route to Yemen to try and do that … I was interviewed by the 09/11 Commission on 10/16 about Aulaqi … They were obviously interested but made no requests for assistance in setting up their potential interview with Aulaqi. According to [REDACTED] the 09/11 Commission that is enroute to Yemen is now trying to figure out how they’re going to arrange the interview of Aulaqi once they get there.””

“Despite this email and an offer to speak with U.S. officials, the final report of the Commission notes that its members were unable to locate al-Aulaqi for an interview during the course of their investigation. The report describes al-Aulaqi’s prior relationship with at least two of the 9/11 hijackers as a “remarkable coincidence” and describes him as a “potentially significant San Diego contact” of the hijackers.

Al-Aulaqi’s email offering to meet with the FBI after being identified as a person of interest by the Commission is the latest in a series of events that have fueled speculation that he was an asset or an intelligence source for the U.S. government.

Indeed, one memo obtained by Judicial Watch from then-FBI Director Robert Mueller to then-Attorney General John Ashcroft on October 3, 2002 — seven days before the imam suddenly re-entered the U.S., was detained and then released at JFK Airport – is marked “Secret” and titled “Anwar Aulaqi: IT-UBL/AL-QAEDA.” The FBI ordered al-Aulaqi’s release at JFK, even though an arrest warrant was still active at the time of his detention. On October 22, 2002, 12 days after the imam’s return, another FBI memo, also marked “Secret,” includes the subject line “Anwar Nasser Aulaqi” and “Synopsis: Asset reporting.” ”

“On October 23, 2003, al-Aulaqi wrote (after first leaving a voice mail) to an unnamed official at the FBI Academy:

I was astonished by some of the talk circulating in the media about me. I was even more surprised to know that the congressional report on Sep 11 had alluded to me as being a “spiritual adviser” to the hijackers. The Guardian newspaper in the UK mentioned that the US authorities are looking for me in the UK while Time magazine mentions that they are looking for me in Yemen. Well in both countries I could be easily accessed. Even though I have nothing more to say than what I did at our previous meetings I just wanted to let you know that I am around and available. I am amazed at how absurd the media could be and I hope that the US authorities know better and realize that what was mentioned about me was nothing but lies.”

“FBI email from December 15, 2003 – “SA [REDACTED] has had a conversation with Aulaqi and has tentatively set up an interview for mid March. With the Va. Jihad trial scheduled for early Feb. this is will be the earliest SA [REDACTED] can meet Aulaqi [REDACTED] With that said, we would not want to do the interview with the 9/11 commission. If the 9/11 commission needs to meet with Aulaqi, we will provide the contact information so they can set up their own interview.” [Emphasis added]”

“FBI email from December 21, 2003 – “… I would like copies of all e-mail contacts between [REDACTED] and Aulaqi as soon as possible. They [apparently the 9/11 Commission] have requested copies of these e-mails. I will discuss the content with the commission staff and determine what the course of action will be. This is a hot topic for them and they have been relentless in their desire to interview Aulaqi.” [Emphasis added]”

“FBI email apparently also on December 21, 2003 – “… the [FBI] 9/11 Commission Task Force (Task Force) has received numerous and unrelenting requests from the NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORISM (9/11 Commission) regarding closed WFO [Washington Field Office] subject Anwar Aulaqi. These requests stemmed from WFO’s revelation to 9/11 Commission staff member [REDACTED] that an individual representing himself as Aulaqi left several telephone messages on SA [REDACTED] office voice mail. WFO EC dated 11/25/03 provides explicit details regarding these voice messages, and 9/11Commission is aware of the same … Nonetheless, for reasons not clearly discernable to the Task Force, the 9/11 Commission reiterates the following Miscellaneous Request [REDACTED].” [Emphasis added]”

Mind you that Saudi is fighting terrorism daily, and they do not tolerate terrorists’ extreme ideas or any person supporting them whether by funding, arming or showing support for terrorizing groups. Open your eyes to see the real bad people.

Makes the “War on Terror” laughable. Its first stated goal — hunting down the perpetrators of 9/11 their supporters — was knowingly and purposely ignored from day one.
This is hard proof that the official justification for all these wars was and is a lie.

The House of Saud has long been been used by the CIA to circumvent the US Constitution Article One Section Eight. THE POWER OF THE PURSE. Saudi Arabia financed and recruited the 911 hijackers. The CIA trained them.

I know I’m going to lose the respect of a lot of people here, but I have to say that I no longer believe the 9/11 story. I remember my Physics, and I remember Freshman Engineering classes. They teach you about how to make structures so they don’t fail. Then they show you bridges and other structures that fail and why they fail. Then they also show you controlled demolitions and explain why its necessary to make EVERY structural support fail around the same time to make that happen.

I’m no Civil Engineer, but with my limited understanding of Engineering and Physics, there is no way that I can reconcile those buildings falling the way they did without help, additional to what we saw on TV.

I don’t know the when, where, how, what, why? But I can’t believe the official version.

“I’m no Civil Engineer”: Amen to that. First off, the people who design building structures are mechanical engineers. Second, your freshman engineering courses did not address the problems that were encountered in the WTC, in particular with regard to the temperature regime. It is not as though there have been no detailed engineering studies of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7; there have. It’s just that all that math is difficult to wade through, particularly for those who never took any math beyond first year calculus; and besides, you don’t need a degree in M.E. to accept the various conspiracy theories that have been hatched.

As you contemplate which of the various conspiracy theories and quack scientific hypotheses to accept, kindly ask yourself how the conspirators were able to size, deploy and time the explosions that brought the buildings down, given the tremendous uncertainties they faced with regard to where the aircraft were going to impact, how much kinetic energy they were going to transfer, and the degree to which the buildings would be able to contain the fuel (much less the actual amount of fuel onboard) to produce the additional damage required to sufficiently augment the effects of the explosions.

I suppose it is human nature to conjure up or accept mythical explanations for things we do not understand. Otherwise, there would be no need for religion. Perhaps it is the deep religiousness of the US people that makes them so susceptible to these various conjectures.

The popular mechanics article you have linked is absurd- ignores vast collections of evidence, and was not produced by engineers so much as PR men. As for debunking 9/11- that website is an absolute joke. Many of the claims made there are laughable and demonstrably false.

The fact is: WTC 1, 2 and & 7 were all destroyed by controlled demolitions. This is the only explanation that is consistent with all the evidence: molten steel, freefall collapse, lateral ejections, blast damage in the basements and lobbies, pulverization of concrete and human remains, symmetrical collapse following asymmetrical plane damage- the complete and utter destruction of Building 7 (not hit by a plane).

The planes were a sleight of hand magic trick- employed to ‘explain’ the destruction- and pin in on the Jihadist patsies (supplied by compliant Gulf state intelligence agencies). It is highly likely the planes were remote controlled- the evidence for this is the high speeds at very low altitude, the complexity of the maneuvers (not to mention the fact that not ONE of the patsies had ever flow a jet aircraft prior to 9/11).

The fact is- the 28 pages show a great deal of very strong circumstantial evidence that the hijackers were part of a State sanctioned operation. And what of those parts still redacted? Who was it that one of the operatives met in Texas? Why is that name redacted? Why were none of these leads explored- why no arrests- why no accountability? The stuff up and negligence theories really can’t explain that.

You linked two deeply flawed publications that strongly support the official story- here is a publication endorsed by over 2500 accredited Architects and Engineers- that utterly destroys the official arguments:

There is no doubt that there was official Saudi involvement in the attack. There’s also no doubt that people in our government took money from and were involved with ranking members of the House of Saud, to varying degrees. But if you really believe this was some kind of inside job (Langley, Dept. of Defense, Mossad, etc.), I call nonsense. Supposing you’re theory above is correct, how many people would you figure were involved? Compliant Americans with family and friends that have stayed utterly silent for 15 years. Between your controlled demolition experts, your high level CIA officials who’d need to be in, your flight trainers, your remote control flight overseers, and so on. Then all of the people who did not participate directly but had to know about it. 100? 200? 1,000? And not one of these traitors (at the highest level) has uttered one word about it to anyone. Not one word about knowledge or participation has slipped. In any form. No guilt, no mistakes, nothing. I’m just not buying it. Human beings are not robots.

9/11 could have been pulled off with only say 10 US citizens or even less (including someone from the CIA) knowing the whole plot. Everyone else who contributed/ facilitated would not have known the full conspiracy. More people must have stumbled onto parts of the conspiracy after the fact, but were silenced.
Whether or not the buildings were demolished with explosives, and whether or not the planes caused the buildings to fall down, there was certainly US intelligence (read CIA) involvement.
Even the hijackers would not have been aware of the full plot.
And many other facilitators would have been aware only of their limited roles, not knowing what they were eventually part of.
The biggest red flag is the post 9/11 cover-up by the FBI, which, clearly was only interested in deporting those connected to the hijackers. Anwar al- Awlaki, they could not deport, so they used a possible prostitution charge to get him out of the US.

your argument is a logical supposition based on the theory that ‘someone would blab’. That theory is based on an understanding- a belief- about human nature. Unfortunately I believe that belief is wrong- and there are many historical events that show it to be wrong:

The Manhattan Project involved hundreds of thousands of people: no one blabbed.

The D day invasion involved the movement of millions of people- and thousands of people were privy to the plan. No leaks, no blabs.

The Skull and Bones society at Yale has existed for well over 125 years- and in that time has had thousands of men picked as members: not one of them has ever written a book or revealed the secrets of the Society. To this day: Omerta is the rule.

The rainbow Warrior Bombing: none of the French operatives blabbed, gave themselves in, etc. It was only uncovered because a lucky journalist chanced upon some information.

Australian Special Forces Z Unit: conducted clandestine raids on the Japanese in South East Asia during WW2. After the war they were sworn to secrecy under the State Secrets Act. Not one of them ever told anyone what they had done- until decades later when they were allowed to do so.

Snowden: yes- he blabbed. But tens of thousands of other people are said to have his same level of clearance and not one of them blabbed.

Lastly: unsolved murders. How often do unsolved murders solve themselves when the murderer walks into a police station and spills the beans on himself? Very, very few.

The fact is people can keep secrets- and especially so when they are sworn to secrecy, when they are fist vetted, when they are subject to possible blackmail, imprisonment or murder, when the safety of their families, and the security of their positions and incomes depends on it. You better believe they can keep their mouth shut. The truth does not always come out.

I believe the people who engineered the false flag 9/11 probably believe they are patriots- and that what they were doing served what they believe is the greater good. Furthermore it is highly unlikely that this was the first operation they were involved with- these are people who had proved their ability to keep secrets, who have sworn oaths, who all have blood on their hands.

Finally you said there were no mistakes: I believe there were many mistakes! So many it is a miracle people liek you still believe the official fairy tale- so full of holes it is.

I don’t think building 7 was supposed to just fall down around 5pm in the evening. Pretty sure the BBC wasn’t supposed to broadcast it’s collapse 25 minutes before int happened. I am not sure if flight 93 was supposed to disappear into a hole in the ground. I don’t think there were supposed to be so many obvious signs that the hijackers had help from various intelligence agencies.

I don’t think we were suppose to know that Atta liked to snort cocaine, drink alcohol and have lap-dances. I don’t think it was supposed to come out that Rudi Dekkers- who ran a flight school were the patsies trained was a cocaine smuggler- and that his flight school had links to CIA front companies. I don’t think we were supposed to know that Buzzy Krongard’s company profited by insider trading on 9/11. I am pretty certain we were not supposed to connect the dots- and note how Dov Zakheim’s company produced remote control plane technology. We were not supposed to examine the links between the Bush’s and the Saudi’s- prince Bandar for instance. We were not supposed to know about the War Games happening on 9/11. They tried their damnedest to make sure we never heard about all the warnings they received prior to the event.

In fact the Bush Adm did everything they could to prevent any investigation on 9/11- I don’t know if you recall but the actual 9/11 Commission wasn’t put in place until over 400 days after the event?? And then it was funded less than 10 million: a fraction of what was spent on the Challenger Disaster enquirer?

Oh- that’s easy- the 47 story Saloman Brothers Building- otherwise known as WTC 7- that housed the largest CIA office outside of Langley- Mayor Guiliani’s controversially located Office of Emergency Management bunker- and all the files for the Enron investigation – a building which was owned by Larry Silverstein- who also purchased a 100 year lease on WTC 1 and 2 in the months immediately before their destruction- ‘collapsed’ in the afternoon of 9/11 in 7.5 seconds due to ‘ordinary office fires’ . Yes folks- that what NIST told us years after the event. For the first and only time in history a steel frame high rise building completely collapsed as a result of ‘ordinary office fires’.

The fact that for 2.5 seconds of that collapse- or approximately 15 stories- the building collapsed at absolute FREEFALL speeds- with no deceleration- and zero measurable structural resistance- shouldn’t worry anyone. Nothing to see- just go home.

That building 7 was only briefly mentioned once in the footnotes of the 9/11 Commission- and that its demise was almost totally ignored by the MSN media- is of no concern whatsoever. We all know what happened- NIST told us so. It doesn’t matter that NIST first claimed it was impossible for a an object to fall through space at freefall speeds if there was anything to resist the fall- but then later admitted bld7 did fall at free fall speeds for a thrird of its descent. It doesn’t matter that one of the only two people who were in Building 7, immediately before it collapsed, Barry Jennings reported huge explosions throughout the building. It doesn’t matter that the BBC announced the building had collapsed 25 minutes before it did. It doesn’t matter that Mayor Guiliani never used the OEM bunker on 9/11 despite the fact that it was build for precisely such an event- instead choosing to use the FEMA staging post nearby. . It doesn’t matter that FEMA set up that staging post on the 10th of September- the day before 9/11. None of this matters. These are just facts.

I suppose it is human nature to conjure up or accept mythical explanations for things we do not understand. Otherwise, there would be no need for religion.

You’re in over your head again, Jeff. There are two kinds of knowledge: a.) ‘the knowledge of the essence of a thing, and b.) the knowledge of its qualities.’ *the essence of a thing is known by its qualities … otherwise, it is unknown and hidden.

Whether or not the bldgs were destroyed as reported does not rule out nefarious and clandestine involvement … as the newly released, heavily redacted release of the “28 pages” seems to suggest.

>Perhaps it is the deep religiousness of the US people that makes them so susceptible to these various conjectures.

*in any case, the more important thing to ponder is the US/Western civilization’s response to the 9/11 attacks (i.e. global destabilization) … it’s no ‘conspiracy’.

“kindly ask yourself how the conspirators were able to size, deploy and time the explosions that brought the buildings down, ”

Marvin Bush, those Bush’s, was head of security for the entire WTC complex.
That’s how they had time.

The towers were designed to absorb the impact of a 747 and the impact played NO role in the collapse. Had the building been damaged enough to cause structural failure, the tower would have tipped in the direction of the missing columns. No tipping means no structural failure, AS DESIGNED.
(when they design for an impact like a 747, they use max speed and weight coupled with impact area and then they double that number. It’s called a safety factor. You always design for max load and then you multiply that by something bigger than 1. Airplanes use something like 1.1 (10% safety margin) because it’s too expensive to over-build. Buildings on the other hand have typical safety factors of 2 (100% safety margin) That is why buildings never fall down, even when burned to a skeleton, because steel is beautiful material and it doesn’t cost too much more to over-build on the ground.

Ask yourself where did all the steel go? All those columns 1000 feet up would have left a rubble pile of columns yet there are virtually none left and there was a puddle of molten steel. You need the heat of a blast furnace to do that and thermite burns at the required temperature.
IMPORTANT! Combustion temperature is completely different from Flame Temperature. Those who talk of the Flame Temperature of jet fuel are being completely disingenuous.
Flame Temperature is a thermodynamic value used in calculating combustion temperature. It is a theoretical maximum quantity and is virtually never achieved. The over-riding factor in combustion temperature is Kinetics, which is a measure of the spacing of fuel molecules relative to oxidizer.
The black smoke from the towers indicate incomplete combustion due to poor kinetics (a welding torch has really good kinetics because the fuel and oxidizer are gases that mix very efficiently though still not up to flame temperature of acetylene because of incomplete combustion – tiny amounts of soot plus carbon monoxide vs carbon dioxide)

” . . . kindly ask yourself how the conspirators were able to size, deploy and time the explosions that brought the buildings down. . .”

OK, so let’s examine some facts (I know, those pesky things you dudes are averse to):

FACT: EurekaGGN, the fiber optics installation company, was contracted to install fiber optics in the Twin Towers around six months before 9/11, around that same period that $43 million was being disbursed to the Taliban.

FACT: EurekaGGN would be finished with the top 20 to 40 stories by the morning of 9/11, having installed dark fibre. (Not yet activated.)

FACT: Aboard one of those four flights that day was a physicist with the Naval Surface Warfare Center, who a year or so prior was involved with research into interleaving nanothermite with fibre optics cabling, for use in the sabotage of buildings, one presumes.

FACT: The owner at that time of EurekaGGN was Apollo Management, one of whose partners was Cheryl Gordon Krongard, wife of the executive director of the CIA, Buzzy Krongard.

Got it?

(You would be well-served to research the passenger manifests of three of the four airliners involved that day, as three unique groups and three unique individuals [one of whom I already mentioned] were among them.)

I never heard of EurekaGGN- but I have seen the statements of a man who worked in the WTC and claimed that there had been several unprecedented ‘power downs’ in the weeks prior to 9/11 as new communications technology was installed. Also the buildings had had the ‘largest ever elevator modernisation in high rise history’ performed in the months immediately prior to 9/11 by ACE elevators. Then we Have ‘Lucky’ Larry Silverstein- who purchased the lease (along with Frank Lowey- a most disreputable individual) to WTC 1 and 2 and insured everything against terror destruction. Lucky he went to see his dermatologist on 9/11 instead of going to the WTC as he had been virtually every day since he purchased the lease. Lucky also his children were both ‘late to work’ at the WTC that day- and very lucky that he got paid out 4.6 billion in insurance – having only put down a tiny fraction of that amount as a deposit on his lease…

And of course when someone says ‘perhaps we better pull it, and we watched the building come down’ they are obviously referring to pulling out the firefighters, and not pulling down the building- even though they said ‘pull it’ and not ‘pull them’.

that would be the same Buzzy Krongard who’s company was found to have engaged in suspicous trading profiting from 9/11 about which the 9/11 cOmmision Report stated that ‘as there are no conceivable ties to Al Qaeda- the suspicious trading is irrelevant’ I guess?

Ground zero: Steel columns visible with 45 degree slices through them and hardened slags from molten metal, traces of Thermite, explosions in the basement levels. Genius …it was a demolition but the consequences of that are too terrible for the American public to accept or wrap it’s head around. And you are one of them. Continue with your fantasy.

Mechanical engineering pertains to designing machinery with moving parts. Structural engineers design the support structure for buildings. You’re head is up your bum right from the get go and everything after that is pure conjecture on your part.

Does your engineering background explain why they used explosives secretly on buildings that would have had to been demolished anyways ? It wasn’t the falling buildings that was the problem for the people inside, it was the fact that they were trapped above whichever floor the planes hit. Do you get it ? Using demo explosives would have been completely unessecary, the 911 Truthers are stupid for not understanding this very simple concept.

Same reason I don’t swallow “truther” theories. The damage done by the planes alone was sufficient and dramatic enough, to enable Bush/Cheney/MIC to execute their Middle East military ventures. Why would such conspirators take on such unnecessary and very complicated risk of deliberate demolition? Also, imagine how the whole thing would have unraveled if the planes had only been able to hit one of the Twin Towers? They would either have to blow up the other one, or have firemen, investigators, etc find all the explosive charges that were set. It would have set off a massive investigation and this was not worth taking that the risk. As for WT7, while I do not understand it, but why would anyone take the risk after having taken care of both Twin Towers, to introduce something so seemingly illogical?

these are logical suppositions that are commonly used to refute 9/11 truth.

However: they fail to take into account the BIG PICTURE. 9/11 was more than just a false flag attack created as a pretext for invading multiple countries. It was also a financial crime of epic proportions- and the complete destruction the WTC buildings made this crime possible. There was a lot of irregular trading occurring in the WTC buildings immediately after the first plane impact- and prior to ‘collapse’. This fact has been verified by multiple investigations- notably a German company found data on damaged HD’s from the WTC that showed this trading. The matter is too complex to go into here- but if you want to understand why WTC 1, 2 AND 7 had to be completely destroyed you have to look into who were the tenants of those buildings- and what type of data storage and banking infrastructure was located there. Specifically look at exactly what was located at the points of plane impact.

And there was the added benefit on over 1 to 2 billion dollars of asbestos removal that was achieved in seconds and for free… Lucky Larry Silverstein…

Also PNAC said they needed a ‘catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbour’ in order to implement their strategy for global domination. Only the complete destruction of the Towers would create sufficient ‘shock and awe’- and the Pentagon had to be hit to bring in the Military and make it a true ‘war’.

Interesting comments,
But,
>>only the complete destruction of the Towers would create sufficient ‘shock and awe’- and the Pentagon had to be hit to bring in the Military and make it a true ‘war’<<
The above statement is simply untrue. Jamming those planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon was plenty. Thousands dead in a very graphic TV friendly manner. After that strings pulled to manipulate the media would have accomplished the exact same result with less risk of the plot being discovered. I do find the speculation about Banking interests potentially viable and that could be a reason for a complete demolition scenario. But if it was just to exercise power abroad and control at home it was not needed.

I disagree- I believe after the 93 WTC bombing (overseen by the FBI as documented in the New York Times) those that advocated for the ‘catalyzing’ event (PNAC) wanted something ‘ catastrophic like a New Pearl Harbor’ in order to implement their plan for ‘transformation’. Recall also that 2001 was the 60th Anniversary of Pearl Harbour- the movie had been that years (dud) blockbuster. The read up and you will find that Paul Wolfowitz had been obsessed with the Pearl Harbor attack since his days at Chicago University, ‘ to West Point graduates in the months immediately leading up to 9/11:

I can’t find the extended version of that speech but Wolfowitz goes on to tell the graduates that ‘one day’ ‘perhaps soon’ they to would get their wake up call, their Pearl Harbour. How prescient of him. Note to his talk of ‘the poverty of expectations’ that allowed Pearl Harbour – and how eerily similar the causes he gives for Pearl Harbor to the causes later given by him and his friends for 9/11.’

This is NOT a coincidence! This man was one of the architects of 9/11- a PNAC signatory- an member of the Quill and Dagger society. A War criminal in Iraq.

there were multiple reasons the towers had to fall. One of them was death toll. Had the Towers not fallen, hundreds of firefighters would have lived. They were the necessary common man ‘Hero’s of 9/11- which is to say Wolfowitz’s Martyrs. In all the death toll would have been reduced by at the least 60% had the building not collapsed as they did. Even some of those trapped above the plane impact zones may have been rescued- firefighter had reached the firezones above the 70th floor and were installing lines when the first tower instantaneously collapsed on them- something they thought was essentially impossible.

Official Death toll of Pearl Harbour:
2,403 Americans died and 1,178 were wounded

Zelikow also was obsessed- had written on Pearl Harbor and terrorism extensively- specializing in ‘the creation of public myths’- if you still believe the official 9/11 fairytale after the following information- I am sorry- there is no helping you:

For anyone who thinks the 911 Commission was impartial, check the wikipedia entry on Philp Zelikow. It says:

“Prof. Zelikow’s area of academic expertise is the creation and maintenance of, in his words, “public myths” or “public presumptions,” which he defines as “beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community.” In his academic work and elsewhere he has taken a special interest in what he has called “‘searing’ or ‘molding’ events [that] take on ‘transcendent’ importance and, therefore, retain their power even as the experiencing generation passes from the scene.”

“In the November-December 1998 issue of Foreign Affairs, he co-authored an article entitled “Catastrophic Terrorism,” in which he speculated that if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center had succeeded, “the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed event in American history. It could involve loss of life AND PROPERTY unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America’s fundamental sense of security, as did the Soviet atomic bomb test in 1949. Like Pearl Harbor, the event would divide our past and future into a before and after. The United States might respond with draconian measures scaling back civil liberties, allowing wider surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects and use of deadly force. More violence could follow, either future terrorist attacks or U.S. counterattacks. Belatedly, Americans would judge their leaders negligent for not addressing terrorism more urgently.”

So the Executive Director of the 911 Commision is an expert in creating public myths. He also wrote about destruction of the towers being a new pearl harbour back in 1998, even before the PNAC boys. Interesting….

the true evil of 9/11 was not only were the buildings brought down to fulfill the need for a truly ‘catastrophic’ event to reshape the new millenium- but the destruction itself was utilized to facilitate a great multitude of financial crimes, destroy evidence, and achieve an number of other objectives all at one time. It seems clear even certain people were deliberately placed in key situations that would see them killed on 9/11- at scheduled meetings in the WTC or as passengers on doomed flights.

Do you think it is mere coincidence that the FBI’s best expert on Osama Bin Laden- John P. O’Neill who quite prior to 9/11 out of disillusionment wiht eh FBI seeming unwillingness to go after Osama- was offered a job as head of security at the WTC- and died on 9/11 on his second day at the job?

Do you think it is coincidence that there were Raytheon employees on every 9/11 flight? Even those flights were highly uncharacteristically half empty?

How about the only source of the box cutter hijack weapon information being the Solicitor General of the USA’s wife on flight 77? Barbara Olson? She called Ted- and told him- on her mobile phone- from 20.000 feet. Only at the Moussaoui trial the government claimed the call was never connected.

I am sorry but the logical supposition that, ‘if you needed a false flag pretext for war- the planes were enough’- is just an opinion. Unless you are a planner- you cannot possibly know what you want- or what is needed.

Agree about the Project for New American Century agenda, 100% Cheney/Rumsfield/Wolfowitz were playing out this shock doctrine episode for all it was worth. They all were happy inside seeing the TTowers come done.
But these people were not idiots and would not make dumb ass plots without consideration of risk. I maintain that with their control of the media the death toll you consider essential was nothing of the sort. How are you calculating such a thing when the very most graphic image of those planes and people jumping to their suicides was obviously enough to justify everything. As this whole discussion has made me realize, the only explanation for the total destruction of the WTC would be the need to destroy some information or system inside that was not otherwise backed up. That is the only thing that could explain taking such an absolutely unnecessary risk.

I read your comment a few times and I have no idea what you’re saying.

And I majored in Economics. But I took Engineering and Physics classes freshman and sophomore years, because I used to love that type of stuff. As I said, my background in Physics and Engineering is limited.

What Nuf Said wrote about Black Smoke is highly important. Black Smoke means incomplete combustion. Soot means things are not burning properly. And if things aren’t burning properly because you need a controlled environment for that, how do you reach the temperatures they’re talking about?

When, in the history of the world has a structure like a sky scraper, failed instantaneously, at ALL structural support points (even the ones below the fire and unaffected by it), because a fire burned on a few floors for several hours? You name another example and I’ll shut the f up. And it happened 3 times on 9/11. It defies statistics. It defies nature. It implies agency.

And let’s be clear. I don’t subscribe to any theories. I have no idea what happened, or who did it or why? But I’m saying it seems physically impossible, given the safety levels involved in the design of a sky scraper, which really are special. These buildings are literally, miracles of Engineering. They are miracles. They don’t fall because something as structurally weak as a plane hit them, or a fire burned for a few hours.

@Glider
I agree with you. It seems too risky. Any such “plot” would seem almost designed to be discovered. And I don’t have an answer for those questions. I don’t. But what took place “physically” on that day, seems impossible.

According to Chomsky, any such plot would have involved so many people, that it’s almost impossible that nobody would have leaked anything. And I don’t have an answer to that either.

Chomsky has denied 9/11 truth clams- but never adressed them factually- only making logical suppositions such as,

“Someone would have blabbed’

“They would have to be completely crazy to do it”

“If the goal was to invade Iraq- why use Saudi nationals? Why not Iraqi’s?”

All of these suppositions can be answered- as for someone would blab: Nonsense! Since when has a Freemason ‘blabbed’? Since when has a Skull and Bones candidate ‘told all’? Of the tens of thousands of people who worked on Project Manhattan- how many ‘spilled the beans’? At the NSA there were thousands of people with Snowden’s level of access- how many of them came forward? How often does an unsolved murder get solved when the perpetrator feels remorse and walks into the station to hand himself in? The fact is- the truth does NOT always come out- and people are in fact very good at keeping secrets. Especially when they were first vetted, when blabbing could equal death, and when blabbing means admitting complicity in mass murder.

Finally when confronted directly Chomsky actually said ‘Even if they did do it (meaning Bush et al) who cares?’

I care. I think the truth is very important. Especially when it comes to 9/11 the event that triggered multiple wars- and has lead to the death of millions. I care.

this is undoubtedly the case: not the least of Whom would be that poor horrid little patsy Atta- the useful idiot- and his team of stooge ‘we don’t need to learn how to land’ pilots.

The entire thing would have been compartmentalized- as all deep state intelligence operations are. Indeed if you look at all that occurred with Air traffic control between the military, NORAD and the FAA it is very clear people had been put into positions where they couldn’t respond, were fed false information, where communication lines didn’t work- and where false ‘blips’ appeared on radar screens as a result of the War games that were happening that day. All of this is confusion of the day is a matter of public record. Many individuals would have played key roles in facilitating the events without knowing it at all.

After the fact there must have been a lot of people wondering: what the hell just happened? What the hell did I just do? That’s probably just about when the heavy guys with their heavy non-disclosure ‘agreements’ started showing up…

Years down the track who would come forward to say, “I think I helped make 9/11 happen”?

And perhaps even that eventuality is guarded against: what did happen to Barry Jennings?

When General Meyer was questioned about the 9/11 wargames he said words to the affect, ‘the war games actually helped us prepare and better react as everyone was already at their work stations’…. WTF?

If it was ‘such a help’- why the hell wasn’t a single plane intercepted? Why were the fighter jets sent out to sea? Why were 99.9% of the fighter jets in the USA unavailable that day?

it’s funny: on the left- when confronted with 9/11 truth- many people think, ‘what does Chomsky say???’ – I know- that’s what I did. As a student of politics I read and appreciated Chomsky greatly.

I have looked, and I have seen exactly what Chomsky says baout 9/11- and it is pathetic. In fact- he uses exactly the techniques he has previously described as ‘manufacturing consent’. He calls ‘truthers’ ‘conspricay theorists’ in a deregotary manner, he says only degreed engineers have any right to comment on the psychics, he never dresses any of the actual 9/11 truth claims only offers up his own logical suppositions. He claims that advocating for 9/11 truth is ‘easy’ and ‘costs nothing’ – despite the fact that innumerable people who have questioned 9/11 have suffered terribly for their temerity: Kevin Ryan, Niels Harrit, Sibel Edmonds, Barry Jennings- heck even Charlie Sheen- the list is long- basically if you question 9/11 you are labelled a lunatic and vilified…

All of it leaves me cold about Chomsky- he has lost it- or he has sold out- whatever the case he is intellectually dishonest, and his stance is very damaging to the search for truth. It is a TERRIBLE SHAME!

I have great respect for Noam Chomsky. To expect him to stick his neck out on a theory that will likely remain unresolved would be foolish. At the best maybe he could have admitted it as more of a possiblity. But to what end is his thought. The USA in his opinion has blood on its hands throughout the world that is unassailable through logic and he has no reason to discredit those arguments of his by opening this can of worms.
Regarding the very good example of the Manhattan Project one should be aware there are differences. In that case we were a nation entirely mobilized for the war effort. Cover stories for the majority of the 100,000 plus employees were easy, and the incomprehensible physics to the common citizen at that time made it even easier. Then at the end of the day a couple of bombs were dropped and rationalized by state driven media as the moral thing to do in order to save the lives of American boys. It would be an entirely different dynamic to realize you were dumped into killing Americans in an event that was condemned as an atrocity by that same media.

I think the CIA/FBI asset Anwar Al-Awlaki was a key player in facilitating the hijackers part of the 9/11 conspiracy. He was also probably an ultimate patsy and probably did not know of the whole plan to bring down the buildings.
Being a US citizen and given the existence of evidence of his ties to the CIA/ FBI and given his deep roots in local US communities (for eg. he was a Muslim chaplain at George Washington University), the American plotters and their helpers in the CIA/ FBI could not immediately ditch him after 9/11. He would have exposed them. So he was kept comfortable for a few years after 9/11 while being simultaneously targeted by the FBI, then made to leave the US. He was probably further used as an asset by the CIA – when he continued to lecture in the UK and slowly became more radical. Eventually, he was pushed out to Yemen, vilified as Al Qaeda, then put on a kill-list and droned. He was never able to tell his story in a court of law about 9/11.

“American-born cleric Awlaki’s role as a key figure in almost every recent terror plot targeting the United States and Canada, coupled with his visit to the Pentagon, only confirms our long stated position that Awlaki is a chief terrorist patsy-handler for the CIA – he is the federal government’s premier false flag agent.”

Official explanations by politically motivated committees of idiots I agree are not any more believable today than they were at the time of the Warren Commission. I agree with you on that. They are compromised with BS from the get go. Truth seekers not.

Agreed, but isn’t it silly to keep arguing with the trolls about the obvious?

The collapse of WTC 7 could only have been a controlled demolition, as anyone familiar with it realizes.

The twin towers collapsed in a steady state fashion, as if all compound resistance had been removed, and the only way such occurs is with a controlled demolition of sorts on the top 20 or 40 stories, bringing down the remainder with overwhelming weight (as the very top floors had less weight from the exploding airliner and subsequent fires).

the video evidence strongly suggests that the explosives were planted right down to the lobbies. You can see large horizontal explosions up to 20 stories below the ‘collapse front’ all the way down the building until the entire scene is covered by the dust clouds.

It’s a funny thing: if you look the rubble pile the entire buildings have been pulverized down to just concrete dust and twisted steel – with no floor assemblies identifiable- 110 stories compacted into rubble just a few stories high- yet the only columns still standing are some perimeter columns of the lobbies. If the official story it true the entire buildings fell down vertically directly onto these columns! 200,000 tonnes of structural steel for each building, tens of thousandth of tonnes of concrete, glass, furniture, people, computers and machines of all sorts: yet the lobby columns remained standing! The fact is- so much of the WTC buildings exploded laterally- and was pulverised in mid air and carried away as dust- that the volume of material landing directly on the lobbies was reduced sufficiently that some of the perimeter the columns survived. There are many images of huge beams from the WTC towers embdded high into buildings several hundred feet from the towers. The NIST reports shows a debris field extending in a nice arcs 600 feet from the bases of the towers. Only explosives can explain this lateral ejection of materials. It’s ironic that the official story relies on the massive weight of the falling building crushing itself- yet much of the building that was supposedly doing the crushing was not there anymore! It had been blown sideways!

It also makes sense that the lobby columns were the only ones to survive- as perhaps- they were the only ones that were naked and visible- and difficult to wire for detonation.

“the only way such occurs is with a controlled demolition of sorts on the top 20 or 40 stories, ”

No. All but the bottom floor, maybe, but all floors had to be shot, or twisting, tipping, would occur immediately. Those columns are incredibly strong as well as tough.Toughness is a measure of how long after failure begins to actual parting and it is what makes steel the best building material going. (It’s calculated as the area under the stress/strain curve for the material, and it’s huge for steel)
When steel fails, it takes significant time for the failure to propagate.
Glass or ceramics are very strong but have no toughness. When glass or ceramic is loaded to its fail (or yield) point, it shatters. Steel stretches, deforms, tears and then eventually breaks. That is why you need explosives; to overcome the toughness of steel.

you cannot solve the 9/11 riddle by ignoring the evidence- and making logical suppositions about what would and wouldn’t have been necessary. You were not a party to the plot- you do not know its objectives- and therefore cannot say what was or wasn’t necessary to achieve them. You call truthers ‘stupid’ for not following your supposition: however this does nothing to counter or explain the facts they use to make there case: such as the collapse time of Building 7. If the official story cannot explain how building 7 collapsed in 7.5 seconds- and at absolute freefall for 2.5 seconds of that time- then the official story must be wrong. Can you explain how it was that Bld 7 fell through itself- at the same speed as an object falling through the air with no structure beneath it?

Seeing how cynically the US capitalized on 9/11 to advance its own military and political dominance, one could suspect a conspiracy.
The official version is clearly so full of lies and omissions (e.g. regarding links to Saudi Arabia) that it’s easy to imagine US elites planning it all themselves. But it’s just as easy to imagine foreign aggressors doing it — after all, you don’t have to be a genius to hurt a lot of people, you just need a grudge and a criminal dose of stupidity. And the latter story is easier to fit to all we know of the facts.

the latter story does not fit the facts at all. How could a foreign power have orchestrated the cover up? Removed and destroyed the evidence? Rigged the buildings?

Seeing how ready the US gov was to immediately seize the opportunity of 9/11- is actually yet more evidence of foreknowledge. Just read the PNAC document RAD “only a catastrophic and catalyzing event like a New Pearl Harbour…” The RAD document was essentially a blueprint for 9/11 – a resume if you like to their dark overlords- and the people who wrote it were in key positions to make it happen on the day. And then it happened. Yet they have evaded examination to this day. Documented War criminals the lot of them: even if you discount their role in 9/11

If you maintain that argument- yes you will be ridiculed. Remember just after 9/11 when Bush said, “”We must speak the truth about terror. Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists,
themselves, away from the guilty. ”

Well turns out he was being completely truthful- the ‘outrageous conspiracy theory’ is the Official Account of 9/11! And it functions to ‘shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty’. Let’s take up Bush’s warning- and reject outrageous conspiracy theories like the one that says 19 men who had never flown jets outwitted the largest intelligence and military power the world has ever seen, hijacked 4 planes with no issues using box cutters- and piloted them into heavily defended buildings (pentagon) after flying around the USA for up to an hour- without ever being intercepted by fighter jets- causing three high rises in NYC to collapse symmetrically despite only hitting two. What an outrageous theory!

Anwar al-Awlaki the US citizen who was droned was also in touch with the 9/11 hijackers. Judicial Watch procured documents showed that later he was in touch with FBI agents . Emails procured by Judicial Watch show that some of these FBI agents were wary of being connected to him. Yet the US government never captured, interrogated or prosecuted him. He was effectively forced to leave the US and was then put on a kill list. He was in London after leaving the US and even them was in touch with the FBI.

Read Anwar Al-Awlaki’s Links to the September 11 Hijackers http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/anwar-al-awlakis-links-to-the-september-11-hijackers/244796/
With all this evidence of links between the 9/11 hijackers and Anwar Al-Awlaki, the FBI never arrested and interrogated him to find out what his role was? !
This article also states: ” Most of Awlaki’s associates who helped the hijackers have since been deported or have left the country under their own volition. ”
So who did the FBI interrogate or investigate if not the people who were found to have helped the hijackers.
Shouldn’t the CIA/ FBI have water-boarded these people to uncover the plot?
Instead they were all allowed to walk away from the 9/11 investigation, including Anwar Al-Awlaki.
An extract from the article:
“In the immediate wake of September 11, a number of journalists probed Omar al-Bayoumi’s relationship to the hijackers but turned up little new information. Questions were raised but never answered about the possibility Bayoumi was a “handler” for the hijackers, working on behalf of someone in Saudi Arabia. A Congressional probe found that Bayoumi had “tasked” some San Diego Muslims to assist the hijackers.

But most of the people who provided assistance to the hijackers in San Diego were as close to Awlaki as they were to Bayoumi, if not closer. For the helpers, Awlaki was not just a friend or an acquaintance, as they described Bayoumi, but an authority figure and a source of inspiration. Was Awlaki at the center of the network, rather than the long-scrutinized Bayoumi?

Perhaps the most damning indication that Awlaki may have been involved with the plot is the Virginia leg of the hijacker’s trip across America. Even if the hijackers found him by chance in San Diego, the evidence strongly suggests they sought him out in Falls Church, far away from Bayoumi and his network of friends. In reviewing their many interactions as they traveled around the U.S. in the months before September 2001, it is Awlaki, not Bayoumi, who emerges as the most common thread.

The hijackers didn’t show up in Virginia and stumble into the first mosque they found. They selected Dar El Hijrah while still in Arizona, and information about the mosque was also held by the September 11 facilitator Binalshibh.

Nor did the hijackers delay in finding Awlaki; according to FBI logs of their ATM withdrawals, they showed up at Dar El Hijrah immediately on arriving in Virginia.

One FBI agent who investigated the helpers told the 9/11 Commission, “if anyone had knowledge of the plot, it was Awlaki.” Others echoed this suspicion, although some were inclined to call it coincidence. “

Radical al-Qaeda cleric Anwar al-Awlaki ‘purchased plane tickets for 9/11 hijackers’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/9781370/Radical-al-Qaeda-cleric-Anwar-al-Awlaki-purchased-plane-tickets-for-911-hijackers.html
Two weeks after 9/11, the FBI had documents showing this. Yet instead of being arrested in the 9/11 investigation, he was invited to the Pentagon, he was detained in 2002 on a passport issue and then released on FBI orders, and later allowed to leave the US. He was again detained by US authorities and released twice in 2006 and 2007.
It would be very fruitful for those who want to uncover the truth about 9/11 to focus on how the FBI engaged with Awlaki before and after 9/11 . If the FBI or the 9/11 Commission covered up the Awlaki connection, then that would be a crime. Awalaki was probably the FBI/CIA asset tying up Americans to the conspiracy.
The first step should be to fault US authorities and actors who after 9/11 facilitated the cover-up. This cover-up itself would be treason.

This stuff is released, it seems to me, ultimately because they don’t care any more. So what if these new vague facts are public – nothing they can do about it except squawk. More and more arrogance on the part of power less and less need to hide it.

They torture with impunity now, think of it – with impunity! TORTURE – so some gossip about the House of Saud – who cares really.

It is interesting that some of us still base our comments on the official “facts” to conclude our judgments! Saudis helped to start the war and destruction of the middle east by creating a justification. That is the reason why we don’t punish them.

Then a few weeks after 9/11 Gen. Wesley Clark was handed a classified memo at The Pentagon detailing how the military plan was to “take out seven countries in five years starting with Iraq then Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Libya and ending with Iran”:

Something else is fishy.If these pages are so innocuous,or circumstantial,why the delay for 15 years?
How much is still redacted?
And I love the deflection from dancing Israelis.
If America only knew,and if America would open its eyes and see who is the only nation on earth to benefit from 9-11.
And they take the benefit every day.

You can download the 28 pages from the NYTimes web site; too band TI did not make it available. Read it, and be patient, because the really damning stuff does not come until near the end. For instance, quoting from page 438:

. . . According to the former Chief of Alec Station, the unit in the DCI’s Counterterrorism Center established in 1996 to focus specifically on Usama Bin Ladin, it was clear from about 1996 that the Saudi Government would not cooperate with the United States on matters pertaiining to Usama Bin Ladin. There is a May 1996 memo from the DCI’s Counterterrorism Center [words redacted] stating that the Saudis had stopped providing background information or other assistance on Bin Ladin because Bin Ladin had “too much information about official Saudi dealings with Islamic extremists in the 1980s for Riyadh to deliver him into U.S. hands.” In a June 1997 memo to the DCI, Alec Station reemphasized the lack of Saudi cooperation and stated that there was little prospect of future cooperation regarding Bin Ladin. The former Chief of Alec Station thought that the U.S. Government’s hope of eventually obtaining Saudi cooperation was unrealistic because Saudi assistance to the U.S. Government on this matter was contrary to Saudi national interests. . .

It is pretty clear to me that the fix was in from day one regarding what would be done with bin Laden. It would be contrary to the interests of the Bush family, the major US oil companies, and energy traders to allow bin Laden to be taken alive and subjected to examination in open court. For that reason, Obama, eternally striving for the approval of and acceptance by the elites, did them the favor of murdering bin Laden. And the vast majority in this country approved of it, and approve of it to this day.

This venue has become something of a billboard for the posting of conspiracy theories about how the Twin Towers or Building 7 were not really taken down by the two jumbo jets, but nobody seems willing to discuss a far more plausible conspiracy theory, namely that US and Saudi officials allowed it to happen so as to provide justification fo the invasion of Iraq and the consequent increase in oil prices. Think of the billions in profits that ensued, and think of how the key players in this hypothetical conspiracy were all in place and able to do their parts.

actually that isn’t more plausible- as that explanation- just as the official one- cannot account for the evidence of molten steel, the rapid symmetrical collapses, the explosions in the basements and lobbies- the laterally ejected beams, the bone fragments found on the roof of the Deutche Bank, the lack of air interception, the impossible high speed maneuvers of the planes at low altitude, the iron microspeheres in the dust, the red gray thermitic materials in the dust, the destruction of Building 7, the rubble pile that burned at over 1400C for over 3 months despite constant addition of fire retardants and heavy rain, the explosions in the lobbies, the explosions in the sub basements, the cover ups of the NIST report and the 9/11 commission, the removal and destruction of all the evidence, the missing black boxes, the passports on the street, the wherabouts of the wreckage of flight 93, the strange behavior of Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney on the day, and on and on and on it goes.

what actual evidence is there that Osama was ever at Abatobad? The body? Dumped at sea. The Navy Seal team 6? Contradict each other completely when giving accounts of what occurred or died in a suspicious helicopter ‘crash’ in Afghanistan.

And what a story: for years the most wanted man in the world was living in a town in Pakistan just a few kilometers from Pakistan’s equivalent of West Point?

Oh- no the evidence is a video of an old man watching the TV- shot from behind him. And they found his book collection- and strange thing: he had a large collection of 9/11 ‘truther’ books? Surely he knew they were all bullshit? Perhaps that’s why he enjoyed reading them: to have a laugh.

I think if they really were his books- and that really was him that got ‘dumped at sea’ then he had those books because he wanted to know what actually happened as much if not not more than anyone. And he knew he wouldn’t find any answers in the 9/11 cOmmision Report- and he knew HE DIDN”T DO IT.

Now that the 28 pages have been made public, and we know what Bob Graham has already disclosed (at considerable personal risk), the dozens of interviews and interrogations which produced this information needs to be declassified.

Clearly if the Iranian government had been as deeply involved in the 9/11 attacks as Saudi Arabia had been, then Iran would have been invaded.

That’s only because Iranian oil is not controlled by the US and British majors, i.e. Exxon, Shell, BP and Chevron, Occidental, etc. Given that Saudi oil is already under the control of the London-Washington-Wall Street axis, there was no pressing need to invade Saudi Arabia.

Iraq, however, was a different story. The Cheney Energy Task Force group had noted that the American and British oil majors had been excluded from Iraqi oilfield deals, that Iraq had converted its central bank’s dollars to euros, and was inviting in Russian and Chinese oil companies. That was the real reason that all the lies about Iraq having ties to 9/11 and Iraq having nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs were cooked up by the Bush Administration.

Revealing that it was the Saudi government that had all the ties to the 9/11 hijackers, that might have upset the Iraq invasion plans; hence that information had to be kept secret. All in all, however, this is another piece of evidence for the war crimes trials of Bush, Blair, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their little crew of evildoers.

Putting the blame for 911 on the Saudis is probably a smokescreen. The saudis have NO REASON whatsoever to bring harm to the US. This “it was the saudis” sham is nothing more than an atempt to shortcut efforts to discover the real truth. There is only one organised crime operation that could benefit from a war, that being the currency cartel. The same currency cartel that demands to be paid in USD. The same one that finances US elections, owns congress, makes billionaires, creates poverty, extracts taxes, steals public property, etc etc etc.

Saudis did it? Nah. These documents are very likely forged. The real planners and orchestraters could not have been them.

What the Saudis do have is an imperative to support Wahhabism in order to keep it from becoming an existential threat to the rule of the House of Saud. So they do support it — as they have since the late 18th or early 19th century.

Does not compute.
What gain did SA get out of doing or planning 9-11?
All one can safely say at this point,with a mountain of evidence,is that the Zionist media has protected the Saudis ever since,along of course,with protecting Israel daily.
Who owns whom?Who is using whom?
Villains,thieves and scoundrels union central,the gulf states ,the Saudis and USzion.

Did I say that KSA, officially, had anything to do with planning or “doing” 9/11?

No, I said that KSA is a long-time supporter of Wahhabism-Salafism and those guys were clearly involved.

The US has been protecting the Saudis at least since Valentine’s Day, 1945, when Roosevelt and Abdul Aziz ibn Saud met aboard the USS Quincy, in the Great Bitter Lake — more than three years before the Nakba/Israeli War of Independence.

Don’t confuse them with facts, Doug. Clearly some of our friends believe that anything not corresponding to their preconceived notions of reality must be lies. For example, above we see someone saying that the material in the recently released 28 pages is a pack of lies.

Personally, I find it much more interesting to contemplate the possibility that it is true, because doing so leads to some interesting conclusions about the US and Saudi leadership (who after all are long time close friends and business partners).

the notion that Saudi Arabia alone was behond the attacks is a silly as the official story that tells us on 19 men with box cutters directed from a mastermind Goldstein type in a high tech cave (pure James Bond, no?)

The Saudi’s had no power to control the (9/11 commission or the NIST reports, to remove all the steel and other evidence from New York, etc.

It seems clear that their was Saudi involvement- just as there is evidence that Mossad was involved in some manner. However all roads lead back to Rome- and the signatories of the PNAC RAD document. These are the very people who had the means, motive and desire for 9/11 to happen- and who could also manage the cover-up. And they just happened to be the very same people controlling the levers of power in the USA on the day itself.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Zakheim, Meyers, Buzzy, Scooter- these are the people who engineered (or at the least fulfilled) the 9/11 plan. Prince Bandar and the dancing Israelis were all just bit players on the PNAC stage.

ALL U.S. military operations should be analyzed in this manner. The U.S. military never does anything unless it benefits the rich & powerful, and most of what they do is about oil and/or oil pipelines.

Releasing this report serves to deflect more questions about what really happened on 911. That the Saudis were involved is unsurprising; so were the Pakistani, and likely, the Israeli intelligence services, all acting on the behest of the CIA. The towers did not fall like soggy pancakes, they were blown up; the official story is believable only because people want to believe it.
Motive? Who benefited? It sure wasn’t an old man hiding out in a cave in Afghanistan, nor Muslims in general. The US military/ industrial complex, along with many of its political enablers, are making out like bandits.
We must trust them, as it is unpatriotic to criticize our elite leaders, who know far more than us peons.

Prince Bandar’s connections to the CIA have long been a significant, albeit little-discussed, aspect of the Riggs affair. During the initial phase of the controversy over Saudi accounts at Riggs in early 2003, Prince Bandar detailed his work for the CIA in a meeting with Treasury Secretary John Snow, according to current and former U.S. intelligence officials who interpreted the disclosure as an explanation for the prince’s large unexplained cash transactions at Riggs.

The meeting took place at the Treasury Department’s headquarters on Pennsylvania Avenue, which is across the street from Riggs headquarters. A spokesman for Prince Bandar declined to comment on the specifics of the discussions with Mr. Snow, as did the Treasury Department. During the 1980s, Prince Bandar helped fund the anticommunist Nicaraguan Contra rebels at the request of the White House and CIA, and later helped support Afghan rebels fighting the Soviet Union. More recently, he helped broker a diplomatic rapprochement between the U.S. and Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi.

The report just came out and I haven’t read it yet and I have only seen this article and another article that talked about what was in the report. The other article I saw talked about how the Saudi government helped the hijackers out with rent and finding the flight school. But the question is: Did those officials do so under the auspices of these are normal Saudi students trying to attend school in the U.S. or did those Saudi officials know that those guys were up to no good when they were helping them out and making these arrangements. That is the million dollar question.

Is this type of behavior normal for Saudi government officials? I don’t know the answer to that and I would be interested to see what journalists have to say about that. Do other Saudi citizens who are here in the U.S. on student visas get the same treatment? Or did those Saudi officials know that they were plotting the 9/11 attacks?

In his book House of Bush, House of Saud, Craig Unger documents in words and pictures the close ties between the Bush family and the Saudi royalty, including especially Prince Bandar. The name of the latter comes up frequently in the 28 pages; both he and his wife provided money to the terrorists.

Typically of the US government, lacking a voluntary, signed confession of wrongdoing by someone powerful, no prosecution is warranted. But be assured, dear reader, that if you had given thousands of dollars to any of the protagonists, your ass would be sitting in jail, or worse. For that reason, it is curious that this material should be released now, on the eve of a presidential campaign. It could not be timed to cause embarrassment to one of the wings of the Party, could it?

Now that these 28 pages have been declassified, a whole new investigation is required so that its findings can be classified. Its not acceptable to have all information in the public domain. Having access to information causes the general public to begin feeling empowered. It’s then only a small step to demanding a role in decision making. Declassifying information is a slippery slope.

Bin Ladin had ‘too much information about official Saudi dealings with Islamic extremists in the 1980s for Riyadh to deliver him into U.S. hands.’

And apparently too much information for the US to risk capturing him alive. The US must be vigilant to avoid the mistake of seeing its allies too clearly. Every country needs allies and it would be unfortunate for the US to lose one the few allies it has left.

Indeed, tracking OBL down, a euphemism for assassinating. For it is clear that had OBL been brought back to be interrogated and stand trial for his awful deeds, it would have caused untold embarrassment to numerous people of both democrat and republican persuasion. So while the great unthinking masses of the US public cheered bin Laden’s death, those who sought true justice had no choice but to give credence to one of the many conspiracy theories that arose in the wake of the September 11 attacks.

In the case of this conspiracy theory, anyway, the passage of time only results in ever further confirmation.

The USA cannot lean hard on the Sauds because they ENFORCE ise of the usdptrodollar exclusively: Saddam, Gadafi, were all threats to that; China is also biggest threat now if its currency overtalkes the Usd in desirability. The reminbi is actually favored over the usd because the China government has a real plan other than the FreeMarketFlush. The TPP, TIPP are justmways to enforce global use of the uds.

There were hearings in Toronto, Ontario during 2011 in marking the anniversary of 9/11. Attended by scientists, engineers, psychologists of worldwide acclaim, the entire accepted story on the towers and their destruction by 2 commercial aircraft is laid bare. The accepted version is the ultimate in group mind control for lack of a better description and as far as I am concerned some power bigger than any power we know of sold the world the accepted version. For further discussion on ISIL, there is a PDF widely available on the ‘net titled The Management of Savagery guaranteed to bring s shiver to anyone who wants to read it. it is a long read, but very well thought out. good viewing and reading.

Zero Dark Thirty is a CIA-sponsored propaganda film. You should know that by now. The producers took their instructions from the CIA and produced the story that the CIA wanted out there. Shame on you for believing it. (Unless you are hoisting a heavy load of sarcasm here.)

Yeah, I have it on good authority Ms Bigelow (award-winning Director of ZDT ‘The Greatest Manhunt In History’) was working hand-in-glove with the CIA (opening credits, after all, say the film is based on “True Events”).
But what you are calling (presumably CIA-inspired) “propaganda”, I would call, without a hint of sarcasm, EVIDENCE! Evidence of a global, systemic, soul-sucking TORTURE regime at the highest levels of the US government … not that any more ‘evidence’ really matters anymore with VP Dick Cheney snarling live on Face the Nation he would “do it again, in a heartbeat” and … crickets.

Do I believe the films depiction of CIA operatives TORTURING the fuck out of people all around the globe for many years eventually led to the somewhat anticlimactic killing of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan? Maybe, but that’s not my fucking point.

*I had hoped the scathing sarcasm directed at Benito Mussolini (aka ‘benitoe’ …when you’ve known him as long as I have.) about how ”Bin Ladin had ‘too much information about official Saudi dealings with Islamic extremists in the 1980s for Riyadh to deliver him into U.S. hands.’” leaving the US no choice but to invade and occupy Afghanistan forever (which is a long time.) was … self evident.

I had hoped the scathing sarcasm directed at Benito Mussolini …. was … self evident.

Let this be a lesson never to employ sarcasm. It is simply begging to be misunderstood and since most of the failures of the world can be traced to poor communications, it is obviously self-defeating. Using the sarcasm tags helps, but avoiding it altogether is simpler.

At the very least it is evidence of some shocking stuff: a treasonous American cover-up of Saudi involvement, for the benefit of our swell buddies the Saudis. No government statement about bringing anybody to justice was actually sincere. And this combined nicely with the fulfillment of a very long-term goal (a bi-partisan goal of long standing!) to hit Iraq. Let’s be clear too: the cover-up of Saudi involvement (and everything that cover-up implies) was a bi-partisan achievement.

Yawn, say the truthers. This is far too mundane! What about Building 7? The all-important Building 7? I mean the whole point was to have all this other stuff happen so that Building 7 could be made to fall down but it wouldn’t be one of the top twenty stories of the day. Building 7. Building 7.

Ah, screw sarcasm, here’s the thing, truthers: when you insist upon having the biggest possible conspiracy, you just diminish the importance of what can actually be found that is short of your impossible demands that the event be whatever you wish it were. It’s never good enough for you — even though what we have is plenty good enough to implicate the whole goddamn bunch! And you shrug your shoulders and go, meh, we “know” it was really truly an “inside job” directed by Americans and/or by Israel or whatever fantasy you really wish it were.

Because you want the story of 9/11 to more effectively serve your political agenda. Gee, who does that remind me of?

Through your very incompetence as thinkers, you are effective allies of a real cover up — it is your actual as opposed to your imaginary function. By spouting years of unsupportable bullshit, you have provided excellent excuses for a very easy dismissal of anyone who didn’t accept the entire story as belonging to your bunch. Bad conspiracy theory by useful idiots makes real conspiracy so much easier to pull off. You don’t even have to be in on it.

Latin for “at first sight.” Prima facie may be used as an adjective meaning “sufficient to establish a fact or raise a presumption unless disproved or rebutted;” e.g., prima facie evidence.

Eyewitness testimony, forensic evidence, expert witness testimony, all point to the same conclusion. That the official story cannot be true. And there is a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing in that direction as well.

I’m trying to keep an open mind on the subject. Every so often I review the evidence. For example, they claimed that there was nothing left of the plane that hit the Pentagon, that it completely disintegrated. This had to be false. The tires and landing gear had to have survived. So I gave some credence to the missile theory.

It turns out that the tires and landing gear are what punched through the Pentagon inner ring. David Chandler checked the geometry of the impact damage and it matches the American Airlines 77 etc. and so forth. There is also ample eyewitness testimony. So I have concluded that American Airlines 77 most likely did impact the Pentagon.

We Truthers are not unreasonable. If the government has an explanation we would like to hear it.

Here are some other things we like answers to:

Did the Pentagon have a missile defense system? If so, why wasn’t it used.
Why hasn’t the FBI released the Pentagon videos tapes it confiscated?
What is the source of the high temperatures reported at ground zero?
We would like an explanation of the Mineta testimony.
We would like NIST to release its data for the collapse model used int its report.
WTC Building 7 is obviously a controlled demolition. How and why was it demolished?

“Did the Pentagon have a missile defense system? If so, why wasn’t it used.”

As far as is publicly known, the Pentagon does not have a missile defense system. If it did, and if there were a possibility that it could have been effectively used on 9/11, it’s pretty likely that at least one of the 23,000 people who work there would have raised the issue with the press, the 9/11 Commission, or even with the Truthers. That hasn’t happened.

It should probably also be noted that the distance from the Pentagon to the approximate center of Ronald Reagan/Washington National Airport is about 1.7 miles. There are about 700-800 takeoffs and landings there every day. One of the three runways at DCA is almost directly inline with the Pentagon and another is off by only a few degrees. Even considering firing ground-to-air missiles from that building would reckless in the extreme.

Patriot missile system! What a laugh! You can see pictures of the TELS and radars on the Raytheon web site, http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/patriot/ among other places. Had there been such a system deployed at the Pentagon, everyone on earth would have known it. If for example you attempted to hide it by say putting it in the center courtyard, the radar would have been unable to detect anything (sorry, truthers, radar waves at the frequency band used by the patriot system won’t penetrate buildings).

There are some small short range antiaircraft missiles deployed for protection of the White House and probably also the Capitol building, within the FAA Prohibited Zone, but these would not be capable of preventing an aircraft the size of a commercial jet from impacting. Thus had the other hijacked plane not been brought down in Pennsylvania, it would have probably been successful in causing severe damage to its target.

Motive for what?Having buildings come down on their own footprint so as not to topple over and destroy neighboring areas sounds pretty good,if your talking demolition.there was also the fact the place was full of asbestos,which all of NY got to breathe.
For 9-11?Well the PNAC sure made hay with it,the MSM went hog wild over it,the shrub who let it happen,came smelling like a rose(unbelievable),and Israel,whose pos leader said it was good for them,has made a whole shite load of hay ever ever since.
It got Americans to start hating Muslims,who had never attacked US here before,and rarely anywhere else,got the Wof terror going,the MIC happy as a pig in shite,and Israel ecstatic at all their self made enemies destroyed,with only Assad hanging on,got Egypt a better dictator for Israeli interests,Iraq destroyed and another zionist bugaboo bit the dust.
The motive was great for Zion,but not great for Islam,or Muslims was it?
And OBL denied it,but the MSM said within an hour,he did it!
And lie after lie after lie about war,about phony heroes,about real heroes fragged,torture,murder of journalists,murder of millions,undercounted and unnoticed by the evil zionist media.
Look at the coverage of France,and its victims,and what happens in the ME every day,with no coverage and its all on our heads,despite I didn’t support it BS,illustrated by these terror attacks that don’t discriminate between the holy and the unholy.
Oh yeah,sure its all about the Saudis.blech.

WTC Building 7 contained records of government investigations by the Securities and Exchange Commission into financial matters. Destroying those records impeded those investigations. That’s one possible motive for destroying the building. The U.S. Secret Service also had offices in the building, as did the the N.Y. Mayors Office of Emergency Management. The latter office was supposed to oversee the city’s response to emergencies just like 9/11. Not having it available probably helped anyone who wanted to cover up unusual government actions on 9/11.

The official story on 9/11 maintains that damage and fires from the airplane crashes led to the collapse of the twin towers. However, it is unlikely that the complete collapse of the buildings would have resulted from just the airplane crashes, and evidence could have been recovered from the airplane debris as to what actually happened on the flights. Blowing up the buildings conveniently destroyed evidence that could have been used in an investigation, and the collapse could still be blamed on the airplane crashes.

The same motive as Pearl Harbor: to get the people to support a war of aggression that the government wanted, in this case to oust the leader of the country (S. Hussein), a secularist, and put in a puppet that they believed they could control, meanwhile turning a once-secular country into a backward ruin ruled by religious obscurantists and fanatics. This happened in Libya also.

You continue to claim lack of an obvious motive, meaning one you can believe, is required and therefore what is plainly visible did not happen.
Do you even remember high school or college level physics? If not STFU.

WTC may well have been the nerve center for controlling the demolition of 1&2. Those were the big ones that had to fall just right to scare the shit out of the country and allow the invasion of the ME.
Of course they were going to destroy the evidence. DOD and CIA were major tenants of #7, Marvin Bush was in charge of security for all towers.
Regardless of motive ,the failure mechanism observed does not even come close to what is portrayed to have occurred by the NIST report.

This is not disputed by anyone, including NIST.

No displacement in the X or Y direction and total displacement in the Z direction, all 3 buildings

This may be explained, both rationally and mathematically, by one model only; controlled demolition.

Your post is so vague that it isn’t possible to respond meaningfully but, if you will provide specifics that convince you that there was a controlled demolition at Building 7, I’ll by happy to explain why you are confused or misled.

‘”I’ll by happy to explain why you are confused or misled.”
Who better or, straight from the horse’s mouth.
bwahahaha! Dust off that High School diploma (if you even got that ) and give us a lesson in thermodynamics; you know, where you tell us all, in what way jet fuel burns at its flame temperature … (try the goog and cut/paste yer best shot)
Perhaps you’ll mumble something about entropy … like how less entropy is really more … (your highway analogy was the exact opposite of reality)

You are a dim bulb with a megaphone, pal. Explain away, as there ain’t shit on TV tonight …

“None of my arguments are arguments from authority. If they fail or stand up it is entirely on the basis of whether they are good or bad arguments.”

You are not an authority and you repeat the no motive so it didn’t happen fallacy.

Since you know you are not an authority, why are you challenging the mathematical model I presented? My guess is that you do not recognize nor comprehend a mathematical argument when I present one. The vast majority of Americans do not see it either.

None of my arguments are arguments from authority. If they fail or stand up it is entirely on the basis of whether they are good or bad arguments.

I have reviewed everyone of your comments from the past month and I do not see one cogent, reason or fact based argument. In fact, I see no form of argumentation at all. Rather I see an unremitting pattern of invective, sarcasm, derision, snark, and condescension. And yet you have the gall to accuse all “truthers” of being incompetent thinkers?

It wouldn’t make a bit of difference who I “really” was. I could be Kermit the Frog and it wouldn’t matter; either the arguments would make sense or not.

You are right, you could be Kermit the Frog and the merit of you commentary would still amount to zero. Take today as an example. You readily acknowledge the fact that the Saudis were directly complicit in the 911 WTC attacks. You further acknowledge that the “cover-up” of Saudi involvement was bi-partisan in nature. Thirdly you acknowledge that the attacks “combined nicely with the fulfillment of a very long-term goal (a bi-partisan goal of long standing!) to hit Iraq.” And lastly you acknowledge that US perceived the Saudis as staunch allies (“swell buddies”). Why then is it so hard to believe that the scientific findings contained within the 911 commission report were not intentionally skewed to obfuscate the true nature of the attacks? You mockingly rant about the “truthers” obsession with building 7 yet fail to address the reasons why many 911 researchers believe that building 7 provides the clearest case of skewed science because no plane hit building 7. Literally thousands researchers including architects, engineers, scholars, firefighters, and academics have concluded that the underlying science that supports the official explanation for building 7’s collapse was pure junk. Jest fuel, heating oil and/or office fires are incapable of producing the heat necessary to cause the free fall collapse of WTC buildings 1, 2, or 7. Yet all three inexplicably fell into their own footprints at free fall speeds. This fact alone forced NIST to revise it preliminary findings in the face of scientific incredulity as they contained data that intentionally obscured the free fall nature of the buildings. The “pancake theory” met a similar fate when critical rightly concluded that it directly defied the laws of physics (conservation of momentum). The only way that any modern, high rise, steel framed building could collapse into its own footprint at free fall speed is from a synchronized, top-to-bottom failure of every core column which would allow for the elimination of all resistance (Resistance due to inertial mass) to the momentum of the mass falling from above.

Instead of addressing such crucial concerns, you choose instead to lump all “truthers” into a single category and then accuse them of “spouting years of unsupportable bullshit” without actually advancing a single argument of you own that would address their legitimate, reason-based incredulity. It is not reasonable to expect the 911 research community to apply motive to those who either participated in the attack itself, or to those who chose to cover it up. Rather, it is only required that 911 researchers present their doubts concerning the official explanation of the unprecedented collapse of three high rise, steel frame buildings in a single day. To this end, many highly credible researchers have applied their own field of expertise to debunking various elements of the junk science upon which the 911 commission’s report depends.

To those of you that still have open minds concerning the science upon which the commission’s findings was based, I recommend that you begin with the work of Kevin Ryan (cite manager for environmental testing at Underwriters Laboratory who was fired for questioning UL’s own lack of scientific rigor in investigating the cause of the collapses) who has produced a number of books and videos that clearly demonstrate a conscious intent on the part of NIST to obscure the actual nature of the aforementioned collapses via the use of junk science:

Youtube videos by Kevin Ryan:

New Standard for Deception: The NIST WTC Report (rec 2006)

Kevin Ryan : On Why NIST’s 9/11 WTC Reports are False & Unscientific

The Evolution of the Fire-based Theory for Building 7 (rec 2011)

The Toronto Hearings on 9/11 Uncut – Day 1 Kevin Ryan (2011)

This is just a sample of the information that has been produced since 9/11 that has totally exposed NISTs findings as fraudulent in nature. The 2011 Toronto hearings on 911 is worth listening to in its entirety as it includes 10 years of research.

You may have nailed it. I don’t buy either side’s stories about 911. I went to a large presentation by people trying to convince us that the U.S. government was behind 911, but most of us came away convinced that it was far more likely that the government just looked the other way. On the other hand, there ARE questions that the government can’t and/or won’t answer adequately and honestly. So I’m left feeling like I just don’t know what happened other than what I saw on video. I think you strike a good middle ground between nutcase conspiracies and a lying, illegitimate government that is far more concerned with money and power (including oil) than anything else.

“So I’m left feeling like I just don’t know what happened other than what I saw on video. ”
Exactly. You are a thinking person and you are taking the correct position; you don’t know what happened.

The first rule a scientist learns is how to observe: believe what you see, record what you see, DO NOT interpret the cause of what you are seeing. (That’s for later.)

Let me give you a quick lesson in Static Engineering, the first course civil, mechanical, and other engineers take.

Our 3D world has buildings experiencing force in 3 directions: X, Y, and Z. (forward, sideways, down)
The building also sees torque, like a lever and fulcrum, when beams connect in each X, Y, and Z direction. A diagonal beam between floors connects Z to either X or Y to form a fulcrum/lever.
A standing building is considered Static (hence the title). It’s not moving along the street or going up and down (tiny flexing occurs and this is Dynamic Engineering – very complex)
The Static building has The Sum of the Forces in each Direction = 0 and the sum of the torques (or moment) is balanced to equal zero. Static means zeros across the board for change in location (displacement), acceleration, velocity in X, Y, and Z directions.
Each building fell. 2 hit by planes first, one not hit.
The only change before and after collapse is the Z direction (the height of the building). No displacement, or movement, in the X or Y direction means no force was experienced in the X or Y direction. There was no acceleration to produce velocity to move because there was no movement before and after collapse.
This is where the moment, or torque, comes in because of all the diagonal beams between all the floors and columns. Each diagonal (45) splits the force above to the horizontal, meaning the force on the column pushing down on the floor below Z and either Y or X.
The moment, or torque, created by movement in Z against fulcrum/lever X or Y will cause rotation. It’ll either go clockwise or counter-clockwise depending.
It will then tip over.
This is why engineered demolition is a big deal; every diagonal has to be cut in sequence with virtually no error or it will twist and tip before falling, crashing into neighboring structures.
That no movement occurred in X or Y and only Z is mathematical certainty of engineered demolition, for all 3 buildings. Engineered demolition would take months of work and that time was available with Marvin Bush running security for the WTC complex.
(there’s much more but this is enough; any more is obfuscation, not unlike releasing ‘fake’ documents depicting real events to discredit the truth)

This is why engineered demolition is a big deal; every diagonal has to be cut in sequence with virtually no error or it will twist and tip before falling, crashing into neighboring structures.

Yes! A sequence of precisely timed cuts would have been necessary to prevent the type of twisting and tipping that is 100% predictable in fires of this nature. As no twisting and tipping was evident, one must conclude that heat alone cause the simultaneous failure of the buildings’ diagonal braces and vertical steel columns. As jet fuel burns in air at a maximum of 1000 C, the question arises as to whether or not it was capable of melting the steel core columns. Even if one accepts the official explanation that steel is severely weakened in time due to constant exposure of significantly lower temperatures then its 1500 C melting point, those temperatures would have to be sustained along the entire length of every column in order to facilitate a free-fall collapse. Visual evidence reveals that all three WTC fires burned with fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke. Thus, the best estimates of the hottest sustained temperatures was in the 700-800 C range. Because fire was the only reason cited by NIST for the failure of the steel core columns, then one must conclude that the 700-800 C temperatures were uniformly felt along the entire length of every core column and corresponding diagonal supports to result in their simultaneous, uniform, top down failure. Yet ample visual evidence revealed that every building had fire only occurring in very limited, discrete areas rather than along the entire length of their core columns. How then could a simultaneous, uniform, top down failure of the vertical core columns take place in each and every building?

Again: The only way that any modern, high rise, steel framed building could collapse into its own footprint at free fall speed is from a synchronized, top-to-bottom failure of every core column which would allow for the elimination of all resistance (Resistance due to inertial mass) to the momentum of the mass falling from above.

It is all to easy for easy to cut-and-paste sections of the final NIST report as if it was the final word on the subject, but anyone who has studied basic physics and statics can see it for the streaming pile of shit that it is. Yet Mona and her sock puppets insist on accepting the 911 Commission report as gospel even in the face of incontrovertible evidence that it was fraudulently used to misplace blame while masking Saudi involvement. Maybe this is why Vic Perry felt compelled to preemptively argue that, “None of my arguments are arguments from authority.” More steaming, authority worshiping bullshit

Of course we SHOULD have a real investigation, but let’s get real. There hasn’t been a real investigation of the President Kennedy assassination (or that of his brother or Dr. King either, for that matter), and that was over 50 years ago. When either the powers that be or elements within them foment or, more likely in this case, ALLOW something like this, they’re certainly not going to allow a real investigation.

agreed that these pages will not lead to much action or change. but it shows that a whole new investigation is required, as this circumstantial evidence must be looked into. perhaps Saudi arabia was not involved on an official or state level but culprits should be identified. also if elements from Saudi were involved, that would also strongly point towards elements within the Bush administration being involved as well, since they have assisted the saudi’s well by not pushing for a more open investigation, just as saudi arabia.

Dear America
Millions and millions of Americans are not buying the zionist media of the WTC and Building 7 BULLSHIT. And they are in a bit of a fit of panic for support as real professionals and real Americans are calling the zionist propagandists for their lies on these events.

The truth is, WALLSTREET THIEVES needed to foment a war to reintroduce cash into an economy (that the zions own since 1913) that they have drained vis-a-vis their whore profiteering corporat ceo’s and predatory pricing and consumer princing and interest rates.

The truth is, Saudi Arabia did NOT plan and orchestrate the attack on the WTC and Americans are seeing who did.

real?
The truth is out there. It’s just a matter of branding. The wallstreet media are in the business of being the purveyor of the wallstreet perspective, image control, price control, etc etc. America suffers from Elvis Syndrome (i’d rather go on hearin yer lies than livin without ya)

What Americans need – Mainstreet Americans – is an upstage. A branding for what is, the book of truth. Wikipedia has been invaded by the wallcons so that wont work. Ameripedia?? board of oversight. It’s doable.

Isn’t it possible these Muslims were working not for the Saudis,but Israel?
There was story in the NYTs years ago(06?) about how a Lebanese guy was outed by Hezbollah as a Zionist spy.
His first cousin was a hijacker,(9-11)the article noted.

In weighing the significance of the 911 suppressed documents, on must first ask, “What is contained within those documents that required their classification in the first place.”

For decades the Saudis have been working with the likes of the Pakistani intelligence (ISI) and the CIA as can be evidenced by the US funded proxy war against the pro-Soviet regime in Afghanistan that took power in 1979. This was not some loose association of interests that happened to intersect at the time of that invasion. The Saudis’ close working relationship with the American government can only be understood in the larger context of Anglo American hegemonic designs on the Mideast and the necessity of containing and controlling the rise of Pan-Arabism in a way that best countered soviet designs on the region. To this end, Saudi Arabia has been used as a proxy to shape the economic, political, and cultural evolution of gulf states in a manner consistent with their eventual integration into the emerging neo-liberal economic order. Saudi political, military, and intelligence leaders have been educated and trained by British and American educational and military institutions for decades.

In keeping with this overarching framework, the Saudi government has been given a free hand to spread Wahhabism throughout the gulf region and beyond as a pretext to winning the hearts and minds of the indigenous peoples that comprise the gulf states. It is by means of building thousands of madrasses that the Saudis have been able to foster a uniformity of belief necessary to the integration of sharia based legal and economic systems with those of the west. When coupled with the Cold War aims of the US, the weaponization of Wahhabi ideology became tactically useful as can be illustrated from the rapid spread of madrasses in Pakistan during the 1980s. US policy makers have long understood the benefit of aiding the spread of Saudi Wahhabism as a means of harnessing its capacity for radical political transformation in the region that are commensurate with its own designs. Both the Taliban and al Qaeda trace their theological roots to the regional spread of Saudi Wahhabism. And, as these released documents reveal, were still very much in the Saudi camp in 2001

Why then would the Saudis and Pakistani intelligence (ISI) allow themselves to become involved in the purported al Qaeda attacks on the WTC? After all, they were the US government’s staunchest Muslim allies in the region. Is it not reasonable to ask whether their involvement was that of an ally of those who held power in the US at the time? If so, then isn’t it also reasonable to examine the outcome of the 911 WTC attacks to determine who had the most to gain? If this long term association with the Saudis was driven by the Saudis capacity to be an agent of neoliberal transformation in the Muslim world, then doesn’t reason demand that we examine the 911 WTC attacks in like context to determine if they too were intended to facilitate the introduction and implementation of neo-conservative doctrine – as embodied in the patriot act, The Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF), and the Bush Doctrine – that were deemed necessary to more directly realize the neoliberal economic aim of global hegemony (in keeping with the principles outlined in the Project for a New American Century)?

I love team spirit!
What about Obama,HRC,Nuland,Rice redux,Power etc. all democrats and all direct killers of innocents?
Our criminals have been totally bipartisan.WTF?
Haven’t you read of all the pos neolibcon scum republicans are for the hell bitch?

I guess we’ll never be told the real total truth of 9/11 because We “can’t handle the truth”. Of course a coup in Greece and the horrific act of a truck driver in Nice will keep most everyone off some of the real stories of our political rulers. Then we have a big cheerleading party/competition bally hoo next week to further distract citizenry from actual policy that would make lives better for all mankind. And so it goes..

“the Saudis had stopped providing background information or other assistance on Bin Ladin because Bin Ladin had ‘too much information about official Saudi dealings with Islamic extremists in the 1980s for Riyadh to deliver him into U.S. hands.’”
Much like Hilary Clinton. Her blackmail weaponry was considerable.

Americans fail to understand the world and lingo and deals of power. Americans “do stuff” to get paid for their job. Then they raise families and indulge in stress relief pleasures until they awake to plunder the traffic and do their job. That is the world of Americans. They follow orders.

Meanwhile Americans are robbed by wallstreet and the consortium of criminal thieves who keep Americans turning over the bulk of productivity to them. There is a law against slavery. But Americans either don’t care or they enjoy the condition of sliding generations.

“The first person on the ground to know that American Airlines Flight 11 on Sept, 11, 2001, was in big trouble was a lone air traffic controller, sitting in the perpetual half-darkness of the windowless flight-operations bunker in Nashua, N.H., known as “Boston Center.”

The sheer bafflement of America’s air traffic control network during the two hours when America was under attack on 11 September 2001 was put on vivid display yesterday with the release of complete audio-tape recordings of increasingly frantic communications as the crisis accelerated.

The tapes, which also carry the voices of commercial pilots, military aviation officials and fighter pilots, were originally meant as part of a comprehensive audio history of that day for consideration by the 9/11 Commission, but the panel disbanded before it was completed and the tapes have never been available in their entirety before.

They show air traffic controllers in the eastern United States struggling to grasp what they were witnessing as one by one aeroplanes smashed into their intended targets or, in the case of United 93, into a Pennsylvania field. They also confirm that civilian controllers had difficulty reaching military counterparts to get fighters into the air.

No, 9/11 Truthers claimed that there were bombs planted in the WTC, that it has nothing to do with the Saudis or the Bush Administration – nothing but a distraction.

What 9/11 Truthers don’t talk about is more interesting than what they do:
1) Cheney Energy Task Force March 2001 focusing on maps of Iraqi oilfields.
2) July 21 warning by Tenet and Black that attacks were being planned to Bush Admins.
3) Aug 6th Presidential Daily Briefing to Bush Admin that hijackings were being planned.
4) Failure of Bush Admin to take action (not even warning airlines! in response to such warnings).
5) Anthrax attacks of 9/18 and 10/9 (after Cheney staff had taken anti-anthrax antibiotics, as detailed by Justice Watch).
6) Saudi-engineered cut in oil prices post 9/11 and pre-Iraq invasion on Washington orders.

9/11 Truthers were most likely a joint Bush-Saudi operation aimed at distracting the public from more important issues.

You are correct. Planes didn’t bring down skyscrapers, planted Mossad bombs did, also bldg 7. A missile hit the pentagon, and the last plane was shot down. Bush administration didn’t know when or where it would occur, but knew their job was to order a stand down so there would be maximum effect. Get the CFR their “New Pearl Harbor”.

I already posted links to the NIST and ASCME reports on Building 7 and the Pentagon, but I forgot and put both in the same post. It will show up eventually and I didn’t have the energy to repost separately.

Its rantings won’t survive, but it won’t notice. It can’t; the result would be personality disintegration.

Typical Hasbara response; ridicule. Anyone who questioned the official 911 report for the last 13 years was ridiculed.

You’ve got to ask yourself who benefited from 911? What country in the world has a vested interest in wanting Americans to hate Arabs and Muslims.
False-flag operations are nothing new in history. It has always been the standard tactic of countries wanting to get another country to help fight its war. In fact a false-flag motive should always be considered when spectacular events such as 911 happen.

Another thing, did you notice that the 911 attack was never investigated as a criminal act, no it was terrorism and that’s different. How convenient,

Oh, and one other thing that bothered me right from the start; why didn’t Bin Laden claim responsibility for the attack, I mean if you’re going to go to all the trouble of setting up such a spectacular event, why wouldn’t you want to take credit for it and tell the world why you did it. That doesn’t make sense.

There is a saying in the field of sales, “if you cant baffle them with bullshit, dazzle them with brilliance.”

IF you read the document, you would see from the outset that it is a complete sales job in the vein of WMD. IF you read the complete document, you would see that the difference between it and the fluff jobbers of a prono film are less than 1 millimeter.

IF you know a conjob when you see it, then you would not be asking me about the interpretation of, RUBBISH.

The truth is somewhere in between you two. There are questions that the government can’t or won’t adequately and honestly answer, on one hand. But on the other hand a lot of this is clearly conspiracy nutcase stuff. With super secret operations, the truth often never comes out.

Specifically I disagree with their collapse progression scenario where they identify three stages of the 7.5 second collapse and create arbitrary start points for each phase. The audio and video evidence contradicts their account. The NIST analysis offers no explanation for the 2.5 seconds where the building is documented to have fallen at the same speed as an object in freefall with constant acceleration and no observable deceleration as would be expected when their is structural resistance. Such a collapse is only possible in the case of a controlled demolition.

Furthermore the NIST report used a flawed methodology to conclude that there was no evidence of explosions- and ignored all video, audio,and transcribed eye witness accounts of explosions.

Lastly the NIST report relied heavily on a computer model- the parameters of which they refused to make public on grounds that doing so ‘could endanger public safety’. Even then the resulting animation of the collapse looks nothing like what actually occurred (it is asymmetrical)- yet they claim their model ‘closely resembles’ what occurred (the actual collapse was symmetrical and even across the roof line- except for a kink in the center which is a classic sign of a controlled demolition).

I would conclude by noting that the NIST report was not peer reviewed.

This is just some questions I have about the NIST report. Others with more expertise have made far more thorough and critical examinations of the NIST report.

You do knwo that the NIST report ultimately concluded that building 7 was bought down primarily by ‘ordinary office fires’? These are their words. Are you also aware that as such it is the only high rise building in history to collapse in such a manner? Since 9/11 there have been many high rise fires that have burned much hotter, over more floors and for longer periods of time- and none of these has ever led to any building totally collapsing.

I am also unsure of what hit the Pentagon- and I think very few people are. The footage released by the US Gov does not help- it is impossible to identify what hits the building. Perhaps if those ‘FBI agents’ hadn’t been so quick to remove all of the footage from the multiple cameras overlooking the scene- and disappearing them forever- things would be a little clearer.

However the issue of exactly what happened at the Pentagon is not so important- the evidence of controlled demolitions in NYC is overwhelming- whatever happened at the Pentagon was part of the same plot.

“White House spokesman Josh Earnest told reporters Friday that the pages would show no evidence of Saudi complicity in the 9/11 attacks. ‘It will confirm what we have been saying for quite some time,’ he said before the documents were released.”

“The Senate passed a bill in May that would allow 9/11 victims and their families to sue Saudi Arabia for the attacks. The House has not voted on the legislation. President Obama has threatened to veto the bill. Critics say it would set a precedent that could open the U.S. to lawsuits from foreigners accusing the U.S. government of supporting terrorism.”

*Meaning this is ultimately a complete whitewash of Saudi involvement, intended to stop all speculation. There are of course still redactions in this “full release,” but this seems to go mostly unreported (or de-emphasized dubiously).

How hot and smoky does a gun have to be before it becomes a smoking gun? The hijackers were in contact with or received financial aid from Saudi intelligence and embassy folk. Fled country. How? Information about Saudi involvement withheld while a war with Iraq is initiated. Never an honest , credible explanation for building 7 or the Pentagon. Instead our response depends on irrational vengeance, and a naive and credulous press that prints CIA lies about WMDs. Wave your mini-flag and try not to puke.
The US policy is not to encourage an educated professional class and democracy in Islamic countries, but to destroy the most educated middle class societies in the region and endorse elite rule backed by US weapons .

and yet, Pres Obama loves the Saudi way –
Obama may be preaching ‘tough love’ to Saudi – but arms sales tell another story
Mohamad Bazzi
theguardian*dot*com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/us-saudi-arabia-weapons-arms-deals-foreign-policy

and yet, Hillary is in love with the Saudi deal
Clinton Foundation Donors Got Weapons Deals From Hillary Clinton’s State Department
By David Sirota @davidsirota AND Andrew Perez @AndrewPerezDC
ibtimes*dot*com/clinton-foundation-donors-got-weapons-deals-hillary-clintons-state-department-1934187

Yeah, Cambodia too, and those are just for starters. I didn’t bother listing all the countries, too many of them to bother. Suffice to say that the U.S. military is second only to that of Nazi Germany in being the most evil military in human history.

Thanks The Intercept for this information. Unfortunately, there is nothing anyone can do now. Even the president has been romancing with the house of Saud, and American people don’t care what happens next as long as the Saudis are our “begotten” ally. The Saudis have killed hundreds of Americans and we have not attacked them but Saddam did not plan nor killed Americans. ” In God We Trust.”

I care, you care, that’s a start. There’s a presidential candidate who is proposing radical changes to our foreign policy so that it is more peaceful: the Green Party’s Jill Stein. Spread the word, get as many people as possible to care. Regardless of what the results end up being in November, it is better to have tried to do something rather than give up.