All this talk about how children should behave in church has made me wonder; what is it like for those that have been raised in an Orthodox church? Converts can get really "passionate" about how things ought to be, but I am curious what it is like when you have always been in the church. I realize that for some people there are negative memories, I want to hear about the positive ones please.

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

What do you think children need more than anything during liturgy?

How important do you think it is to have children participatory in the life of the parish?

What else do you want to share about living an Orthodox life since birth?

Please, if you are a convert preface it as such. I am throughly of the opinion that the Orthodox church is unique enough that the impact on children is completely different if they have been exposed to it from the earliest of ages. I really want to hear from cradle Orthodox for the most part. Converts can have theories. I certainly see a difference in my children, but since I came to the church as an adult I don't entirely know what that difference is.

All this talk about how children should behave in church has made me wonder; what is it like for those that have been raised in an Orthodox church? Converts can get really "passionate" about how things ought to be, but I am curious what it is like when you have always been in the church. I realize that for some people there are negative memories, I want to hear about the positive ones please.

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

None are memorable as they were all conducted in a meaningless foreign language and no-one in the family had the theological literacy to explain any of it to me.

This is a bit of a non-answer, but I think what children need is to be given more and more at each stage of their development: just enough to challenge them. At some point, it is no longer enough to be instructed to kiss the icons and cross oneself and recite the Lord's prayer in a foreign language. It is one thing to get children into the Church, it is quite another to keep them there into their teenage years.

What else do you want to share about living an Orthodox life since birth?

As I said in another thread, I was very lucky I was nerdy and bookish enough to go research Orthodoxy on the internet once I had lived out my adolescent contempt for everything: if I had not been, I would probably be living as some vaguely-Christian, for-all-intents-and-purposes agnostic, as do my contemporaries.

I cannot speak for Orthodox everywhere, but I suspect there has been a lamentable failure in Christian parenting over the last couple of generations in my part of the world.

All this talk about how children should behave in church has made me wonder; what is it like for those that have been raised in an Orthodox church? Converts can get really "passionate" about how things ought to be, but I am curious what it is like when you have always been in the church. I realize that for some people there are negative memories, I want to hear about the positive ones please.

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

The mystery. The chanting. At my Church, the children were in Sunday School until Communion. After Communion, the younger children were dismissed to junior choir practice while the older children saw the end of the Liturgy.

Please, if you are a convert preface it as such. I am throughly of the opinion that the Orthodox church is unique enough that the impact on children is completely different if they have been exposed to it from the earliest of ages. I really want to hear from cradle Orthodox for the most part. Converts can have theories. I certainly see a difference in my children, but since I came to the church as an adult I don't entirely know what that difference is.

As long as you feel that every Sunday and every service is a mystery and if your husband and children feel the same way, then you're on the right track.

As I said in another thread, I was very lucky I was nerdy and bookish enough to go research Orthodoxy on the internet once I had lived out my adolescent contempt for everything: if I had not been, I would probably be living as some vaguely-Christian, for-all-intents-and-purposes agnostic, as do my contemporaries.

We all have that phase where apostasy is tempting; however, these feelings were fleeting and I quickly found myself back in the Orthodox Church. As for our contemporaries, each has his/her own reasons for "falling away."

I cannot speak for Orthodox everywhere, but I suspect there has been a lamentable failure in Christian parenting over the last couple of generations in my part of the world.

Divorce and division of property and custody will cause even the most devout to apostatize. Included is the "do as I say not as I do" attitude. If we believe in Jesus Christ, we follow His way, not our self-designed way and if we deviate and admit to our sin, we are welcomed back into the Church.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

At my Church, the children were in Sunday School until Communion. After Communion, the younger children were dismissed to junior choir practice while the older children saw the end of the Liturgy.

I'm sorry but I don't see any sense in forbidding the children to attend the Liturgy. What was your parish waiting for? 'Believers baptism'?

Very good question Michal! Maybe that's why so many people come in during the Liturgy just before Communion and leave. Practices like theseonly lead to poor habits as adults. I've seen Churches (mostly Greek) where the sign outside ays - things like 'Divine liturgy 09:300 Communion 10:30'. Guess when people show up?

Children belong in Church while the Liturgy is going on, not in Sunday School!

Orthodoc

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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

As a kid, it was the music, the mystery, the reverence of the old folks, and the otherness that I liked. I recall even though it was long, and sometimes in Slavonic, it was routine. At that time my family attended a suburban parish in northern New Jersey, that celebrated half the service in English and half the service in Slavonic, alternating the starting language each week, and switching after the scripture readings (read in both languages). It was a large parish and had church school an hour before the Liturgy, with enough kids to have separate classes for each grade.

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What do you think children need more than anything during liturgy?

I think that they need to know what is going on, to the extent that they can understand. When old enough they should learn some of the hymns and sing along at the service, and even try to follow along in a service book when they can. I think for smaller children, just the habit of being in church is a good thing.

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How important do you think it is to have children participatory in the life of the parish?

It is very important. A young family that does not come just because they have small children is denying the parish community a part of itself.

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What else do you want to share about living an Orthodox life since birth?

My observation from being a member of an Orthodox Church since birth (over 55 years ago), is the change, and the sameness. My memories are that the Church that people went to was based on their ethnic background and not their theology. Friends of mine, as a kid, if they were Irish or Italian they went to one church, German to another, Greek to another, and so on. So my family being Russian went to a Russian Orthodox Church, passing Ukrainian and other kinds of Russian Orthodox Churches on the way. So back then, going to church was a normal Sunday morning activity and everyone went to different churches. In church school lessens, they did not teach us how Orthodoxy was different from other Christian churches, they just told us about the Gospel message and the Church as if all Christians believed the same thing.

Getting back to your concerns for children, it is my opinion that they learn from experience. So the experience of the Liturgy will teach them (and us) a lot about God. They will pick up on what is important and what is not.

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

I don't really know. I do remember being captivated watching everything going on. I was really happy when I was old enough to serve in the Altar. I think if I were female, I would've been in the choir as soon as they let me. I had a real desire to serve in someway. Since my voice sounds like a cat being stepped on by a horse, it was pretty clear where I should serve as a child.

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What do you think children need more than anything during liturgy?

To be there. I really am saddened when I'm at a parish where the children only come in for Communion. They need to be there for the entire thin. Even if they don't understand it. Their soul still, I think, rejoices at being there. And growing up knowing this is what we do is very important.

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How important do you think it is to have children participatory in the life of the parish?

Very important. This is their family. They need to grow up in it knowing that Church isn't something you do for two hours a week and that's it.

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What else do you want to share about living an Orthodox life since birth?

It's difficult. I know, for myself, I took it for granted. A lot of Orthodox I know who grew up in it don't even have a clear understanding of the Faith. I loved being in Church, loved going to all the services I could during the week, but I had no real understanding and, when challenged by others, I could never give a clear answer as to my beliefs. It wasn't until I was older, and especially when I fell away from the Church for a few years, that I finally started to really study.

It wasn't until my mid to late teenage years that I finally started reading the lives of the saints and history and started learning. Sunday School was a joke, to be frank. I have no doubt that there are good programs out there, but the ones I was in...we colored, pretty much. Later on, they started to touch on some things, but by then you have older kids who are bored by it and don't pay attention. And, even then, the things they touched on were weak.

But, at the same time, being raised Orthodox instilled something in me I can never get rid of. Even when I drifted away, I still felt something pulling me to the Church. I still remembered the saints and the truth and so on. I believe that if my family had prayed together, etc., it would be a lot stronger. The one thing I do know is that I could never completely leave the Church.I could never become Protestant or Catholic. Not to say that a convert could more easily do it...I can only speak on my life growing up and that what was "drilled" into me from a young age continues on. Orthodoxy or death for me. There's no other alternative.

I'll wax a bit lyrical and sentimental, but although not going to church all that much when little, I loved being there when I happened to go. At home I would mimic the priest and bury birds and other animals . My main contact with the church as a child were funerals and the Great Week & Easter ceremonies. Romanian village burials tend to be very a long and elaborate mix of church and folk custom. From an early age, just by being there, I learned by heart the Gospels red at burial (for the stations too) and the Apostle. The usual threat for misbehaving children (in church) back home was :"Shut up, or else the priest (popa) is gonna cut your tongue off."

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"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Very good question Michal! Maybe that's why so many people come in during the Liturgy just before Communion and leave. Practices like these only lead to poor habits as adults. I've seen Churches (mostly Greek) where the sign outside ays - things like 'Divine liturgy 09:300 Communion 10:30'. Guess when people show up?

Children belong in Church while the Liturgy is going on, not in Sunday School!

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

As a kid, it was the music, the mystery, the reverence of the old folks, and the otherness that I liked. I recall even though it was long, and sometimes in Slavonic, it was routine. At that time my family attended a suburban parish in northern New Jersey, that celebrated half the service in English and half the service in Slavonic, alternating the starting language each week, and switching after the scripture readings (read in both languages). It was a large parish and had church school an hour before the Liturgy, with enough kids to have separate classes for each grade.

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What do you think children need more than anything during liturgy?

I think that they need to know what is going on, to the extent that they can understand. When old enough they should learn some of the hymns and sing along at the service, and even try to follow along in a service book when they can. I think for smaller children, just the habit of being in church is a good thing.

Quote

How important do you think it is to have children participatory in the life of the parish?

It is very important. A young family that does not come just because they have small children is denying the parish community a part of itself.

Quote

What else do you want to share about living an Orthodox life since birth?

My observation from being a member of an Orthodox Church since birth (over 55 years ago), is the change, and the sameness. My memories are that the Church that people went to was based on their ethnic background and not their theology. Friends of mine, as a kid, if they were Irish or Italian they went to one church, German to another, Greek to another, and so on. So my family being Russian went to a Russian Orthodox Church, passing Ukrainian and other kinds of Russian Orthodox Churches on the way. So back then, going to church was a normal Sunday morning activity and everyone went to different churches. In church school lessens, they did not teach us how Orthodoxy was different from other Christian churches, they just told us about the Gospel message and the Church as if all Christians believed the same thing.

Getting back to your concerns for children, it is my opinion that they learn from experience. So the experience of the Liturgy will teach them (and us) a lot about God. They will pick up on what is important and what is not.

Hope I came close to what you asked.

I am 57 and my recollections are nearly identical with yours.

At the risk of offending my Greek brothers and sisters, I still remember being about ten and attending Sunday liturgy at a Greek Orthodox church for the first time when we were out of town and being shocked that the children had Sunday School during liturgy and that people seemed to come and go throughout the service, light a candle, say hello and leave. That was foreign to my previous experience at various ACROD, Metropolia and Ukrainian parishes where everyone acted 'pretty much' like we did at home.

I'll wax a bit lyrical and sentimental, but although not going to church all that much when little, I loved being there when I happened to go. At home I would mimic the priest and bury birds and other animals . My main contact with the church as a child were funerals and the Great Week & Easter ceremonies. Romanian village burials tend to be very a long and elaborate mix of church and folk custom. From an early age, just by being there, I learned by heart the Gospels red at burial (for the stations too) and the Apostle. The usual threat for misbehaving children (in church) back home was :"Shut up, or else the priest (popa) is gonna cut your tongue off."

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

For me it was being able to chant in church. I just loved the music & being able to sing with the choir / everyone else was the coolest thing.

Going to church was not a choice though (my father is a priest), so we made the best of it.

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What do you think children need more than anything during liturgy?

To be taught how to experience the liturgy, and grow up going to church, working out all their idiosyncrasies in time. If we give in to our children at every turn & make it easy for them every time they have a difficulty, we do them a great disservice. How much more important in this instance than church.

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How important do you think it is to have children participatory in the life of the parish?

EXTREMELY! As one priest I know famously said: "people, bring your kids to church. I don't care what they do, say, throw, etc. as long as they're not my kids, I don't care." lol. Funny, but true nonetheless. "the eye cannot say to the feet, I have no need of you". We need every member of the body. they are all eminently important. it's not a church of "me"

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What else do you want to share about living an Orthodox life since birth?

I never learned a more important lesson in life, than when i was in church and had to "suck it up". I know it may sound horrible to people, but I can count to you on 1 hand how many times i've missed church my whole life, including seminary (for the most part ). It formed me as a person more than I can ever express. Now, for me to miss church, would be the end of the world. It made me appreciate the gift of orthodoxy in ways I could have never imagined. I'm forever grateful to my parents who actually forced me to go (had no choice, who else was gonna chant when the chanters weren't around).

I was lucky to attend a parish that served the Divine Liturgy in English. For me, what was most meaningful was singing the hymns of the church. The children participated in the Divine Liturgy until Holy Communion. Then we communed and attended Sunday School.

I believe it is very important to have children participating in the Divine Liturgy. A church seems lifeless without LOTS of children and babies filling the air with their voices, whether they are singing or just babbling!

I now attend a church that looks like a day care center. Babies and children are everywhere! I just love it! My two year old godson is a joy and my teenage boys love playing with him. Last Sunday my godson was pointing to the baptismal font and asked me what it was. I told him that it was a tub we used to baptize the babies. He then told me,"My tub, my tub. It mine!"So cute.

What a church should provide is a flexible environment so parents of young children will fill at ease to bring their children to Divine Liturgy. Having a big open space with a soft carpet is a perfect set up for bringing young ones. Put the pews or chairs in the back for the older folks. Let the young ones sit or stand near the front on the carpet. And encourage the older people to be patient with the noise little babies and toddlers make during Divine Liturgy. I would assume that Christ loves to hear their little voices chirping away every Sunday.

I would say that trying to live an Orthodox life comes in waves of doubt and devotion. Your perspective changes as you live your life but the church remains the same whether you are living a devout life or not. The church is there, always waiting for you to return, like a loving, patient mother.

I was in Romania and unfortunately communism brought changes not in Church, The Church that I remember while a child is the same today and I believe was the same for around 2000 years. The people that I remember are no more on Earth. So I felt differences between my generation and my grandparents generation in the way of the importance of Church in life and communism I believe had a bad influence here. Romania now is going back to faith and it will take some time to do that.

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

I recall my grandparents being very carefull that I don't hate the Church . They told me so. If something is too much to bear, tell us and we will try our best to help. Eastern Orthodox Church is the Church that gives you entrance to Heaven through baptism and eternal life through Holy Communion. So if you hate the Church because you are forced do something, this may be very bad. If you hate your way to Heaven, what is worse than that? So anything that child would love in the Church is welcome like having a treat while going home. I believe that the greatest realization for my greatparents was to make me love the Church. So if I would not be able to stay to the end, staying outside the Church and playing as a small child was OK. So basically they did not force me do anything beside catching me at night for prayers. The prayer I could not escape. At prayers I did say usually Our father and My angel then listening to my grandparent continuing his prayers that I recall were long. Looking forward many times I was wondering why other children were able to do cool stuff that put them usually in trouble but myself? Now I know is because of my angel prayer.Also I remember taking Holy Communion and having Confessions after age of 7 .

The other grandparents were in a village and there the custom was that everybody with children grown enough will be at Church before Holy Liturgy until after the Liturgy will end.Not being there would be something unthinkable. Also leaving while at Holy Liturgy. Family history goes that my grandgrandma that had 6 children was first in Church every morning with every child.

What do you think children need more than anything during liturgy?Until around 7 years children do not need to confess sins and this is great since they can take Holy Communion for eternal life every Sunday thus having God in them JOhn 6:53-58. Once they grow they need to continue confessing and have Holy Communion.

How important do you think it is to have children participatory in the life of the parish?I believe this is important because they will get rewarded by God. Is important to make this involvement fun while rpecting Orthodoxy.Serving in altar is very rewarded too.

What else do you want to share about living an Orthodox life since birth?Carolling was fun. Carols are sharing with the world that Messiah was born. We would go to different homes and sing Carols and get treats that made us very happy. THis can be organizad in Church with some families. Getting gifts on Sunday.

Waiting for something from Church on Easter day without eating. Knocking eggs on Easter and participating in coloring them.

I recall being reminded of God, that God loves me.

I recall my grandparents reading Bible,eastern orthodox literature.Once a month or year they would call an eldery home and ask how many elder people are there and prepare packages with food and gifts and would bring this to these people. I did not know until one morning I wake up earlier and see these packages with food and I had a tantrum and they had to give me one package. And story goes that one elder did not have his package and there was some trouble. The thing is that IF you boast about giving packages to poor or good things you do, you can loose the reward from Heaven having the reward from people as praise. Anyhow, I did not recall other time catching my grandparents doing that because I believe they took extra precautious.

Some people would request buckets of water for horses and would get them. Giving fruits and greens from garden to neighbours.General Matthew 25:34 things. Volunteering for Church. Volunteering when other women had to prepare food for ceremonies like baptism and such.Volunteering for house building. Praying when working in garden.

Recently I dreamed about one of my predecesors being in Hell, not in fire but not fun either for participating/helping with abortion and probably not confessing it.In protestantism people that did abortion are stuck since there is no confession.

Recently I read a story about somebody being in Hell in fire and being happy that he will get out since in his family many become priests and they pray for their family. So if the efforts are good and if children become priests they can take from Hell souls.

So the Church I remember as a child is here the people are no more, my grandma and her ladies from Church, my grandpa and such. They are with God now and in Eastern Orthodox Church prayers.

^My grandparents taught me the same prayers: Our Father and "Inger ingerelul meu". I would be saying them every evening as a kid. Plus "Doamne, Doamne ceresc Tata...". I also knew the Creed quite early. And "Most Holy Mother of God" ("Preasfinta Nascatoare de Dumnezeu...).

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"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Yes I remember my grandparent at night saying The Creed and Most Holy Mother of God . Sometime I would be required to repeat the Creed after grandpa.What I want to add is that the Church I know while a child is even here in US, as doctrine and the way of Celebrating Holy Liturgy and in the Romanian Church is like being in Romania. This is important, for Church to have the teachings of Jesus and not teachings like fashion.

Since in protestantism there is no confession, maybe abortion can be overcomesd if life of other children will be saved from abortion.

There is something that people in Romania do and people in US cand do either, to let Children stay at a monastery in vacation or to go as a family to monastery in vacation for days or weeks. This immerison in the life of prayer, natural food and some work that people do there can be marvelous. I am looking in future for doing something like this myself.

Story goes in Romania some people had children going astray because of disorganized life and after staying at monastery without TV, games and with much prayer and such they became other people.

There is something that people in Romania do and people in US cand do either, to let Children stay at a monastery in vacation or to go as a family to monastery in vacation for days or weeks. This immerison in the life of prayer, natural food and some work that people do there can be marvelous. I am looking in future for doing something like this myself.

Story goes in Romania some people had children going astray because of disorganized life and after staying at monastery without TV, games and with much prayer and such they became other people.

Speaking of children, another things few people know is that Emperor Constantine as a child was given to God, Elder Cleopa was given to Holy Mother of God and Elder Arsenie Boca was given to Holy Mother of God by their parents. So, to give a child to God or to Holy mother of God is a great idea. Constantine as Emperor brough Christianity as a Religion of Empire and allowed many people go to Heaven. Elder Arsenie and Cleopa were the lights of wisdom of Romania. Elder Arsenie just by looking at you would know your past and future and your thoughts. Giving a child to God or to Holy Mother of God means God will have more powers over him and sick angel less and this is good. This will count dearly at judgement.

There is one Eastern Orthodox Christianity however there are different levels of living it:

There is monastic level where Eastern orthodoxy is lived at the last ditch, and last detail. They I believe have the highest salvation rates. This is why I believe that a visit to monastery is important.

There is village living orthodoxy that is very close with monastic . Like everybody does not miss an Sunday Liturgy or one in a celebration. Lots of help to neighbour and such. Lot of work. Like in my village grandpas they would pray before every meal like in monasticism. In my city grandpa this was not done therefore I did not do it in my childhood.

Then there is a city living Orthodoxy. For my grandpa generation I would not remember one Sunday he would not go to Holy Liturgy taking the best clothes available, especially for the event. For my generation, I lived many weeks without attending Holy liturgy, however I was formed in communism with atheistic education, so if you see Eastern orthodox not living the faith, communist education may be the reason. Just I want to say, my childhood memory are from city childhood so interesting would be to see a village childhood memories.

The most importamt for child to be Eastern orthodox is :1. To be baptised that is to have doors of Heaven open to them.See in one hand one child that is not baptized and spends 15 min in prayer and devotion every day and one child that is baptized and spens 5 min devotion a day, the one that is baptized can go to Heaven even if it does not do so many devotions.

2.To take Holy Communion to give him eternal life . This Holy Communion was rennounced by Protestantsim. So somebody from protestantism with 1 hr prayer a day, not having Holy Communion may- not have life in itself like in John 6:53. Somebody that Is Eastern orthodox Christian can have ETERNAL LIFE life in itself.

So bringing the children at Eastern orthodox Church you give them FROM GOD many presents:1. opening the gates of Heaven through baptism2. eternal life through Holy Communion3. sins forgiveness through confession once they are over 7 years.4. crispy clear faithThese presents from God can not be replaced is you would give the children 24 hours prayer or by anything parents can do. So other religions may say we give children music, math lessons or we will learn them Bible or anything imaginable. These gifts pale in face of gifts from God that people find in Eastern orthodox Church.

Book of Solomon says once life ends, the other gifts like math capacity or sport capacity or anything ends with it and one King would give one sack of Gold for every hour of life, anyhow Eastern orthodox Church gives ETERNAL LIFE so anything you build, goodness, and math skills can be there and used for eternity.

What do you recall being the most meaningful in the liturgy in your earliest years?

I recall my grandparents being very carefull that I don't hate the Church . They told me so. If something is too much to bear, tell us and we will try our best to help. Eastern Orthodox Church is the Church that gives you entrance to Heaven through baptism and eternal life through Holy Communion. So if you hate the Church because you are forced do something, this may be very bad. If you hate your way to Heaven, what is worse than that? So anything that child would love in the Church is welcome like having a treat while going home. I believe that the greatest realization for my greatparents was to make me love the Church. So if I would not be able to stay to the end, staying outside the Church and playing as a small child was OK. So basically they did not force me do anything beside catching me at night for prayers.

A very lovely post but this was an especially nice part. Pasadi, it sounds like you were graced to be raised by wonderful people.