Isn't it? I don't disagree (entirely, at least), but on what do you base this?

To "leave a record behind", I assume? "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, does it make a sound"? As I said (or implied, at least) before, whose to say that such a world didn't already exist, or will continue to exist even if no one is alive to remember it.

Which brings up a further point: what, exactly, happens to a world if its creator forgets it? Who cares for it? What would happen if God "forgot" this one? Why? Why? Why?

I don't imply any point beyond this; it's simply food for thought.

The memory of our deeds is irrelevant. History is only an echo of past actions, of people who manifested their will upon the outer world. It is through action that you "create", that your world can begin to expand. That is the point. If the seed of the internet began as a thought within the mind of an engineer, then it grew into a ravenous vine visible to all, and whose tendrils extend into almost everyone's world. What began as one idea within one mind spread to other minds and gained real form as they began to act and spread the idea further, shaping what would become the internet. To the present, the character of this creation has been much decided by its users. It is a world born of a collective of worlds, and whose gods are both knowledge and ignorance, anonymity and omniscience, and ultimate self centerdness. In fact, I dare say that as a world born from the commingling of so many others, it is a microcosm of life itself, every nuance of it having the same character as everything that came before it, but more compact and pronounced.

Yes, but what is reality? If our collective viewpoint's are subjective by design, how can anyone claim reality exists at all, much less if it's inaccurately reflected?

As I said before, is the creator of our particular universe really the supreme creator? Or is he/she but one entity within a larger, higher reality created by an even more prestigious creator. And, if so, how far do those layers go? (Oddly enough, I'd be perfectly satisfied if I never found the end; the world is infinite, and there's no call to know it all.)

the world is finite and only God is infinite. I don't know if there's a higher reality or whatever but if I had to guess I'd say it's only creator and creation, because there's no way to have greater qualities than a being with infinite qualities.

it's easy to confuse the difference between what we know and what we can prove. we can't prove that reality exists but if anyone wants to contest that fact then they can go jump off the roof. there is a single reality that we're all within, and although our perceptions are all different and inherently flawed that doesn't mean it just changes or disappears.

i suppose that what Im saying is that since the deception of the first man we can never be 100% simply, objectively truthful... the best we can do is to at least acknowledge that despite this objective truth has not disappeared and do our best to recognize and conform ourselves to it. it's sort of like gravity, even if you dont know what it is or how it works, you can still know it's there and that you are subject to it's effects.

in reality, objective truth subjugates the subjective mind. the mind should humble itself before the truth as it can best be discovered (this would be successful flight engineering by the Wright brothers)

in delusional perception, the mind creates the truth. truthfully, though, the mind is still subjugated by objective truth and so the mind pays the consequence of not reflecting that (this is someone jumping off their roof and breaking their legs)

Great debate! Glad i found this site. I agree with Iriohm. Every invention, every religion, may we even say every god? Every rule, every word...everything is first imaginary and then may become real. What is real anyway. What if the concept of God is that of an emergent universe coming to know itself. At each level a metamorphosis of new conceptualizations. What of Epiphany? Of the "court of courts" in Philosophy or the Holy of Holies in religion?

That which is real is real only by perspective...and each personality is locked in their own. All of our disagreements in history revolve around this nugget!

"This fearless one always is the same in essence,however.He is Holy heresy born stout lacking the ability to cower or break.The Universe is transparent to him." Me

the world is finite and only God is infinite. I don't know if there's a higher reality or whatever but if I had to guess I'd say it's only creator and creation, because there's no way to have greater qualities than a being with infinite qualities.

...unless you're a reflection of that being, though I never said our qualities were greater. It keeps coming down to everything being subjective (even infinity). We can be as infinite as God along one dimension, while still retaining our material limits.

Originally Posted by foolish heart

it's easy to confuse the difference between what we know and what we can prove. we can't prove that reality exists but if anyone wants to contest that fact then they can go jump off the roof. there is a single reality that we're all within, and although our perceptions are all different and inherently flawed that doesn't mean it just changes or disappears.

True, we can't prove it. "Reality" in the most common sense is simply a widely (very widely) held belief of what constitutes the world we live in, and anyone who believes differently can go jump off a roof.

Still, perhaps death is also an illusion. The truth itself is unknowable, for the moment at least. Anything you say in response to this will be subjective, anything I say in response to that will be subjective. Let's just leave it at that.

Originally Posted by foolish heart

i suppose that what Im saying is that since the deception of the first man we can never be 100% simply, objectively truthful... the best we can do is to at least acknowledge that despite this objective truth has not disappeared and do our best to recognize and conform ourselves to it. it's sort of like gravity, even if you dont know what it is or how it works, you can still know it's there and that you are subject to it's effects.

in reality, objective truth subjugates the subjective mind. the mind should humble itself before the truth as it can best be discovered (this would be successful flight engineering by the Wright brothers)

in delusional perception, the mind creates the truth. truthfully, though, the mind is still subjugated by objective truth and so the mind pays the consequence of not reflecting that (this is someone jumping off their roof and breaking their legs)

Exactly. "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." What do you think it means?

I've taken the time to read the thread now. I was extremely tired last night.

Genesis 1:27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (KJV)

Indeed, if the Christian god does in fact exist then it can be said that we are at least made in his image. As for being god himself, as I stated before in this thread, we are severely limited creatures and these limitations are those of lesser beings. To be clearer, by definition, god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent; we are none of these things. Perhaps we do have a portion of his personality, but without the rest of the being, we are simply simpletons.

INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) |RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari& NohariThis will not end well...
But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

Hmm... But what if it does end well?
Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
A sort I could become accustomed to...

There’s no use in trying to figure out who or what god is. We all won’t know till we die right!? And if there was a god, who was that god’s god, it could go on for infinity. It’s unexplainable. We could be microscopic germs on some other beings ass for all we know lol....

I've taken the time to read the thread now. I was extremely tired last night.

Genesis 1:27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (KJV)

Indeed, if the Christian god does in fact exist then it can be said that we are at least made in his image. As for being god himself, as I stated before in this thread, we are severely limited creatures and these limitations are those of lesser beings. To be clearer, by definition, god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent; we are none of these things. Perhaps we do have a portion of his personality, but without the rest of the being, we are simply simpletons.