I've been looking at Chiashu, hourumd, and LSN trying to get a better idea of what my chances are at getting into a T14 school, but having a bit of a hard time because there doesn't seem to be a lot of data for mixed indicators. For example, hourumd gives me the impression that nobody with a 3.4 has ever scored a 179 or 180. I'm taking the December LSAT so I don't have my actual score yet, but I have taken three old tests (so far). The first I took before studying at all, and got a 170. The second and third I took after self-studying with the PowerScore books, and got a 177 and 178 respectively. As such I'm relatively confident that when I do take it in a couple weeks I'll get at least a 175. My UGPA is a bit messed, unfortunately, and is currently only a 3.39 at a cheap state school. I have 221 quarter credits already, so my grades this year won't change that number much if at all. I'm like 1/32 native american but other than that am not a URM. I have a bit of work experience because I worked my way through undergrad, and accordingly have an addendum that talks about how I worked 20-40 hrs/wk throughout school. Also my GPA has a distinct upward trend. My LORs are good but nothing spectacular (I didn't cure AIDS or anything).

With all of that in mind, what do my chances look like for T14? I'm not really looking at NU or GULC because of the former's emphasis on not going directly after undergrad and the latter's location in DC. So far the other twelve are basically all on the table. Thanks in advance.

I'll let you know that most people won't say this thread means anything without an actual score.

But assuming you can score 175+ as you seem confident, then you will have a good chance at the lower T-14. Splitters have notoriously difficult to predict cycles, but I'd look at lawschoolnumbers.com to see some previous outcomes.

But again, you need an actual score. Worry about the LSAT before deciding where to apply.

Last edited by starrydreamz3 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

starrydreamz3 wrote:But again, you need an actual score. Worry about the LSAT before deciding where to apply.

I knew I was going to get this reply, and definitely understand and respect it. But I am very confident that I will get at least 175. As such if we can proceed with the assumption I'll get 175+ I'd appreciate it

EDIT: Didn't realize mentioning the letters SAT was in violation of a major taboo on this board. Sorry, guys. It won't happen again.

Last edited by entropy on Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

starrydreamz3 wrote:But again, you need an actual score. Worry about the LSAT before deciding where to apply.

I knew I was going to get this reply, and definitely understand and respect it. But I am very confident that I will get at least 175. By comparison I got a 2360 SAT 35 ACT; I've just always done well on tests. As such if we can proceed with the assumption I'll get 175+ I'd appreciate it

EDIT: Not trying to turn this into that other thread about meaningless high school tests, I know SAT score doesn't have much relevance to LSAT score Just throwing it out as an example.

You can't just assume a 175+ LSAT like you can with SATs/ACTs scores... the variation at the top of the LSAT is much more than other tests since 99% starts at 173.

For example, I had a 1580 SAT and my first PT was around 170. However I didn't study the recent changes the first time I took the LSAT so I got under 175, and then read a rule wrong on a retake so also barely missed 175. [It worked out ok, but just saying that one or two questions wrong can cause you to drop 2-3 points easily at the top of the range]

The whole "can't help you until you have a score" thing is true, with regard to odds of admission anywhere, other than "not HYS with that GPA".

However, I'm just one of many people who got into lower T14 with a low GPA and a 170+ LSAT. It's highly doable if you hit 170 or higher. So just focus on that, know it'll be worth it to put in the work, and then you can figure out what your exact chances are once you have your actual score.

Thanks for the input guys. With regards to HYS, I kind of assumed they were a super reach but the opinion here seems to be that I have no shot? I'm thinking I'll apply to Yale and Stanford anyway just because if I do win the lotto as it were and get in, it'll be well worth the time and the app fee, but any further input on that subject would be appreciated. Assuming I don't get in to either of those, though: It seems like on chiashu, hourumd, etc I have a pretty solid chance at Columbia and NYU. Would you guys agree with that? If so, I probably will only apply to maybe Yale, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, and UCLA, or something like that. On the other hand if I don't have a great shot at Columbia and NYU I'll probably apply to Penn, Chicago, UVa, etc. so as to give myself a better shot at at least getting into a T14, even if it's not one that I particularly like as much. Also, on another tangent, with the whole debt load debate... would it be worth applying to schools like Davis, UW (I'm a WA resident), or others in that range to kind of fish for scholarships a bit? I know that one's more of an opinion thing than anything else, or at least so it seems. Thanks again for all the input guys, very helpful.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I'm fluent in French, competent in Spanish, and making progress on Japanese. Dunno if that affects admissions or not.

entropy wrote:Thanks for the input guys. With regards to HYS, I kind of assumed they were a super reach but the opinion here seems to be that I have no shot? I'm thinking I'll apply to Yale and Stanford anyway just because if I do win the lotto as it were and get in, it'll be well worth the time and the app fee, but any further input on that subject would be appreciated.

You have no shot at HYS, but if you were to apply to 1 or 2 with a 175+, then definitely do H and then S. Yale hasn't taken a sub-3.5 in the past few years including URMs, and you're not going to be the first. Stanford also loves GPAs too much to let yours slide.

Study your ass off. Get LSAT score first. There are tons of people on TLS who averaged 175+ on practice tests (and usually many, many more than the 3 you've taken) and then scored wayyyy below that on the real thing, sometimes even below their diagnostic. We can't give you the kind of specific advice you want until you have an actual LSAT score.

entropy wrote:Thanks for the input guys. With regards to HYS, I kind of assumed they were a super reach but the opinion here seems to be that I have no shot? I'm thinking I'll apply to Yale and Stanford anyway just because if I do win the lotto as it were and get in, it'll be well worth the time and the app fee, but any further input on that subject would be appreciated.

You have no shot at HYS, but if you were to apply to 1 or 2 with a 175+, then definitely do H and then S. Yale hasn't taken a sub-3.5 in the past few years including URMs, and you're not going to be the first. Stanford also loves GPAs too much to let yours slide.

Fair enough. With that in mind then, would it be worth me waiting until next year, getting 4.0s in all of my classes until graduating in June and maybe pulling my GPA up to about a 3.5, and then applying?

entropy wrote:Thanks for the input guys. With regards to HYS, I kind of assumed they were a super reach but the opinion here seems to be that I have no shot? I'm thinking I'll apply to Yale and Stanford anyway just because if I do win the lotto as it were and get in, it'll be well worth the time and the app fee, but any further input on that subject would be appreciated.

You have no shot at HYS, but if you were to apply to 1 or 2 with a 175+, then definitely do H and then S. Yale hasn't taken a sub-3.5 in the past few years including URMs, and you're not going to be the first. Stanford also loves GPAs too much to let yours slide.

Fair enough. With that in mind then, would it be worth me waiting until next year, getting 4.0s in all of my classes until graduating in June and maybe pulling my GPA up to about a 3.5, and then applying?

It probably won't make a huge difference, assuming you hit within your PT range. But again, all of this is moot until you have a real score. So... less TLS, more study.

entropy wrote:Thanks for the input guys. With regards to HYS, I kind of assumed they were a super reach but the opinion here seems to be that I have no shot? I'm thinking I'll apply to Yale and Stanford anyway just because if I do win the lotto as it were and get in, it'll be well worth the time and the app fee, but any further input on that subject would be appreciated.

You have no shot at HYS, but if you were to apply to 1 or 2 with a 175+, then definitely do H and then S. Yale hasn't taken a sub-3.5 in the past few years including URMs, and you're not going to be the first. Stanford also loves GPAs too much to let yours slide.

Fair enough. With that in mind then, would it be worth me waiting until next year, getting 4.0s in all of my classes until graduating in June and maybe pulling my GPA up to about a 3.5, and then applying?

Wouldn't make much difference. Assuming you score 175+, you'd still be out at HYS and probably get into at least one of CCN. Not worth taking a year off to possibly get into, say Columbia instead of NYU.

I was on the high school mock trial team that won state. I also was one of the best writers in my high school, as evidenced by the numerous awards I won in writing competitions. Can we just assume that I'm going to make Law Review and ace Moot Court? k thanks.

beachbum wrote:It probably won't make a huge difference, assuming you hit within your PT range. But again, all of this is moot until you have a real score. So... less TLS, more study.

Yeah. I've been studying every day, just been trying to figure out where to apply also so I can hit the ground running once I do get my score. I got started a bit late on all of this, as I'm sure you can tell.

I have a 3.4 and ended up with a 174. So if you end up with a 175ish, I'd say from most of the numerous posts and hours of profile stalking I've come to this conclusion - potentially in at least one of CCN (helps to ED, and odds will be worst at Columbia) and most of the lower t14 (maybe not B). Of course if you get your 179/180, your CCN chances increase, though your HYS chances are still low.

Unless of course you claim NA status on your apps. Then in everywhere (maybe not Y though)

entropy wrote:Thanks for the input guys. With regards to HYS, I kind of assumed they were a super reach but the opinion here seems to be that I have no shot? I'm thinking I'll apply to Yale and Stanford anyway just because if I do win the lotto as it were and get in, it'll be well worth the time and the app fee, but any further input on that subject would be appreciated.

You have no shot at HYS, but if you were to apply to 1 or 2 with a 175+, then definitely do H and then S. Yale hasn't taken a sub-3.5 in the past few years including URMs, and you're not going to be the first. Stanford also loves GPAs too much to let yours slide.

Fair enough. With that in mind then, would it be worth me waiting until next year, getting 4.0s in all of my classes until graduating in June and maybe pulling my GPA up to about a 3.5, and then applying?

Others have said no, but given when you will be applying (January 1st at best) you will almost undoubtedly face waitlists from schools that you would get into had you applied in September/October and schools you get into will probably not offer you any money whereas they would had you applied earlier and they still had funds free to give. Given all of that and the prospect at having a higher GPA, you are probably better off applying next cycle if you want your full range of options. YHS would be a waste of a lot of money. That $200+ could be spent in much better ways.

And as for your LSAT, my first practice test was a 168 and after 2 months of self study where I was PTing in the mid 170's, 168 is exactly what I scored. While I would imagine you certainly have the potential to do well, you will set yourself up for disappointment if you are banking on a good score (speaking from experience here).

2014 wrote:Others have said no, but given when you will be applying (January 1st at best) you will almost undoubtedly face waitlists from schools that you would get into had you applied in September/October and schools you get into will probably not offer you any money whereas they would had you applied earlier and they still had funds free to give. Given all of that and the prospect at having a higher GPA, you are probably better off applying next cycle if you want your full range of options. YHS would be a waste of a lot of money. That $200+ could be spent in much better ways.

And as for your LSAT, my first practice test was a 168 and after 2 months of self study where I was PTing in the mid 170's, 168 is exactly what I scored. While I would imagine you certainly have the potential to do well, you will set yourself up for disappointment if you are banking on a good score (speaking from experience here).

Considering that I'll have about $120-150K in debt four years from now, I'm not even remotely worried about $200. That's just silly.

With regards to LSAT, my bad for presuming that pretests had any correlation whatsoever to actual test scores, since everyone here seems to think that they're completely irrelevant. I've taken another few PTs (in strict test-like conditions) since posting this thread, got 177s and 178s. You guys have the right to think that I'll still get a 170 on the actual test, but for the time being I'm going to proceed as though that won't happen.

ITT OP makes outlandish claims about easily getting a 175+ and asks if he should just get a 4.0 in his last semesters (although he couldn't pull it off for 3 years). Then he doesn't listen to anyones advice and convinces himself that he has a shot in the dark at HYS and is a shoe in for one of CN. Come back when you have a real score. Actually don't, because you haven't listened to an ounce of advice anyway.

Sorry for all the hate, but you have to kind of understand where its coming from, you do come across a bit entitled, although clearly smart. Best of luck to you on your upcoming test, I hope that it goes well. In some sense, I like that you are not putting too much pressure on yourself by acting like it isn't a big deal. (in another sense you are putting a ton of pressure on yourself).

Anyway, I say, just stay loose, take the test, apply everywhere, and actually try on all your apps, including the ones that you feel like you don't care about, and then just wait and see what happens. It would probably help a small bit to wait a year, if you could get some sort of job and boost your gpa a little, but in the end, life is more than law school, so I would say, just do what you want to do, that's what will make you happy. and let the law schools decide whatever they want to with respect to you, you are going to have options somewhere come march. You are who you are and law schools can see that no matter how much you try to dress yourself up. If you're a strong, conscientious applicant, you'll make that clear, if not then they will be able to tell that too.