I don't have children yet, but I really hope to one day. Those who are/have been pregnant, do people really approach you out of nowhere and just touch your pregnant belly? Apparently, in the story, a neighbor, 57 yrs old reaches out to his new pregnant next door neighbor, gives her a hug hello, and then rubs her belly and says 'I just want to be friends.' She quickly pushes him away, leaves, and files harassment charges.

My question is, what was this guy thinking? I don't know how you can describe his actions as innocent, but I can completely understand the woman's reaction. I think I would have responded the same way. It's seems like a violation. However, would I feel a little different if it was a woman - maybe. But how can you see it otherwise? I've NEVER wanted to touch a stranger's pregnant belly, and I'd feel violated if someone were to touch mine. But is it because we are becoming less and less innocent-minded nowadays? Should we always think the worst?

I think we live in an era where people are overly sensitive and very easily offended.

I feel the urge to touch the pregnant bellies only because I want to connect with the baby. I don't care about the actual belly, I want to feel the baby. I don't do it because I'm scared of people's reactions and certainly I won't like to get sued.

I really don't think Theotokos would've been upset if people would've touched her blessed belly.

I feel the urge to touch the pregnant bellies only because I want to connect with the baby. I don't care about the actual belly, I want to feel the baby. I don't do it because I'm scared of people's reactions and certainly I won't like to get sued.

That is all sorts of creepz.

Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

That is a beautiful image and I'm sure the Theotokos, all-Holy as she is, would never turn anyone away from Her. But the issue is, are our innocent-minded actions as such anymore? Why are we so easily offended? I think it's because we are tarnished, daily, by the disgusting acts of physical/sexual abuse we hear and see. A pregnant belly is a beautiful thing because it carries life! Why would anyone want to tarnish that image with impure thoughts?

I really don't think Theotokos would've been upset if people would've touched her blessed belly.

I guess the difference in the end between the Orthodox and protestants is that the protestants feel confident telling me the subjective experience of Christ, the Odox, the subjective experience of Mary.

That is a beautiful image and I'm sure the Theotokos, all-Holy as she is, would never turn anyone away from Her. But the issue is, are our innocent-minded actions as such anymore? Why are we so easily offended? I think it's because we are tarnished, daily, by the disgusting acts of physical/sexual abuse we hear and see. I pregnant belly is a beautiful thing because it carries life! Why would anyone want to tarnish that image with impure thoughts?

Because the world and people bodies don't revolve around your desires?

That is a beautiful image and I'm sure the Theotokos, all-Holy as she is, would never turn anyone away from Her. But the issue is, are our innocent-minded actions as such anymore? Why are we so easily offended? I think it's because we are tarnished, daily, by the disgusting acts of physical/sexual abuse we hear and see. I pregnant belly is a beautiful thing because it carries life! Why would anyone want to tarnish that image with impure thoughts?

Because the world and people bodies don't revolve around your desires?

That is a beautiful image and I'm sure the Theotokos, all-Holy as she is, would never turn anyone away from Her. But the issue is, are our innocent-minded actions as such anymore? Why are we so easily offended? I think it's because we are tarnished, daily, by the disgusting acts of physical/sexual abuse we hear and see. I pregnant belly is a beautiful thing because it carries life! Why would anyone want to tarnish that image with impure thoughts?

Because the world and people bodies don't revolve around your desires?

Can I please rant about my Italian coworker now?

I have my headphones on, working mind you, and she hates when I send her a message over a chat...well uh kinda don't want to talk to you in person.

Tries to get me to bend to her desires and crap. Ugh.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 11:02:20 AM by Achronos »

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

That is a beautiful image and I'm sure the Theotokos, all-Holy as she is, would never turn anyone away from Her. But the issue is, are our innocent-minded actions as such anymore? Why are we so easily offended? I think it's because we are tarnished, daily, by the disgusting acts of physical/sexual abuse we hear and see. I pregnant belly is a beautiful thing because it carries life! Why would anyone want to tarnish that image with impure thoughts?

Because the world and people bodies don't revolve around your desires?

What desires are you referring to?

To touch a stranger's belly in some better-never-have-existed world?

TBH, I read your post as from Dpaula, so whatever she is going on about.

I think TOUCH is absolutely very important in a human's life. I would be in physical pain if I can't touch and if I'm not being touched. We have this sense and it's part of our existence. Like we want to see, we want to hear, taste, smell...we also want to touch. It's beyond me why you guys find "touching" weird and "creepy" ?!?!?!?Wow! I choose to use my sense of touch. If you guys don't like your humanly characteristics it's on you, but don't blame the world for being normal.

Most of us learned very early on the "keep your hands to yourself" lesson as a means of reducing conflict/not driving our parents insane (how much whining from children, especially siblings, begins with "Moooom, he's touching me!"?). Apparently some people think that goes out the window if someone is pregnant. I very much disagree. If you wouldn't do it if someone wasn't pregnant, then don't assume that you can just because they are. At least freaking ask. It's guaranteed to avoid lawsuits and helps to make you not seem like some sort of creep even though you probably are.

I think TOUCH is absolutely very important in a human's life. I would be in physical pain if I can't touch and if I'm not being touched. We have this sense and it's part of our existence. Like we want to see, we want to hear, taste, smell...we also want to touch. It's beyond me why you guys find "touching" weird and "creepy" ?!?!?!?Wow! I choose to use my sense of touch. If you guys don't like your humanly characteristics it's on you, but don't blame the world for being normal.

Don't touch my body, unless I know you. Then there are rules most sane people understand. Pulling my shirt up ain't cool. Even if I know you.

Don't play with my hair when you are taking my order.

If I were pregnant I would appreciate most folks to ask before touching and accepting NO as a reasonable answer.

I think TOUCH is absolutely very important in a human's life. I would be in physical pain if I can't touch and if I'm not being touched. We have this sense and it's part of our existence. Like we want to see, we want to hear, taste, smell...we also want to touch. It's beyond me why you guys find "touching" weird and "creepy" ?!?!?!?Wow! I choose to use my sense of touch. If you guys don't like your humanly characteristics it's on you, but don't blame the world for being normal.

Don't touch my body, unless I know you. Then there are rules most sane people understand. Pulling my shirt up ain't cool. Even if I know you.

Don't play with my hair when you are taking my order.

If I were pregnant I would appreciate most folks to ask before touching and accepting NO as a reasonable answer.

If the cultural norms are different, then fine. When in Rome, but I really don't care for strangers taking an interest in my body much to the puzzlement of women who think they do whatever they wish cause I have a penis and they do not.

By extension, I wouldn't want people thinking they can just touch me cause I have a person in my belly.

Having a stranger just come up and touch/rub your pregnant belly can create an uncomfortable situation. Firstly, we all have a 'personal space,' and the second one enters it, it makes us jump back. Whether getting to close to your face, from the back, side, whatever.

But in this case, I would assume the attempt is to connect with the unborn child (as odd as that sounds.) To feel the baby move or kick. I don't assume one reaches out for any other reason!

Like I said, should it have been a woman, it kind of 'looks' different because women can bond over this experience. But, as I've said, it is a personal violation. I would never want a stranger touching my pregnant belly. I don't think I would file harassment charges that instant. But if it were to happen again, by the same person, that's a different story. My pregnant belly should be mine to touch - and only touched by others I know WELL - not just anyone.

Here's another thought - what if I child were to rub a women's pregnant belly - would you be fine with it if it were you?

“To touch is to give life”Regrettably, though, some Western cultures are pretty touch-deprived, and this is especially true of the United States.

Ethologists who live in different parts world quickly recognize this. Nonhuman primates spend about 10 to 20 percent of their waking day grooming each other. If you go to various other countries, people spend a lot of time in direct physical contact with one another—much more than we do.

This has been well-documented. One of my favorite examples is a study from the 1960s by pioneering psychologist Sidney Jourard, who studied the conversations of friends in different parts of the world as they sat in a café together. He observed these conversations for the same amount of time in each of the different countries.

What did he find? In England, the two friends touched each other zero times. In the United States, in bursts of enthusiasm, we touched each other twice. "

Field (2002b) noted that touch is extremely important for the emotional, physical,and psychological growth and development for children. Extreme cases of touchdeprivation have been cited in Romanian orphanages where children attained only halftheir height. Moreover, there children with extreme touch deprivation have had delays incognitive development. Appropriate touch for children has been shown to help withsleep, reduce bad temper, and enhance academic performance (Hart, Field, Hernandez-Reif, and Lundy, 1998).

Ok. Don't take my word for it. Read some studies about the importance of touch, touch deprivation, touch as a communication tool in a human and non-human and so on.

And don't kiss my kids.

I got a story invloving that too.

yes!! Good one! But honestly, I haven't seen that done at all nowadays! Who does that?

This is too strange for me.Maybe I grew up differently, maybe I was raised to love humans, related or not, known or not. A pat on my shoulder, a touch on my hand, a hug, a kiss on the cheek or forehead...they are all normal as far as I'm concerned. You guys CAN kiss my kids. It's ok.

Ok. Don't take my word for it. Read some studies about the importance of touch, touch deprivation, touch as a communication tool in a human and non-human and so on.

And don't kiss my kids.

I got a story invloving that too.

yes!! Good one! But honestly, I haven't seen that done at all nowadays! Who does that?

This is too strange for me.Maybe I grew up differently, maybe I was raised to love humans, related or not, known or not. A pat on my shoulder, a touch on my hand, a hug, a kiss on the cheek or forehead...they are all normal as far as I'm concerned. You guys CAN kiss my kids. It's ok.

I grew up like that too! And in school, I have the fondest memories of TEACHERS hugging AND kissing me on the head. I felt loved because it was innocently expressed. Can you imagine a teacher doing that now? No! Touching, let alone kissing, is prohibited! Even rubbing a child's back! I think that is sad.

Why do I get the feeling that this thread is going to turn into one of those "hell in a handbasket"-type gripefests where certain people lament that people lock their doors nowadays and nobody waves at you when you walk down the street, and why isn't everything just like the Mayberry they grew up in.

I was raised in a small town where the mailman would come to your garage sale and stuff like that (we were on a first-name basis; he bought our old TV for $20), and it was still never okay to kiss a stranger's children. Just because you have personal space doesn't mean you can't bond with people. There are just appropriate ways and inappropriate ways and unless you know the person very well, you'll never know which is which to them unless you ask, which is what the baby belly-rubbers and kid-kissers seem to never do because, hey, it's fine with them, so what's everyone else's problem?

Ok. Don't take my word for it. Read some studies about the importance of touch, touch deprivation, touch as a communication tool in a human and non-human and so on.

And don't kiss my kids.

I got a story invloving that too.

yes!! Good one! But honestly, I haven't seen that done at all nowadays! Who does that?

This is too strange for me.Maybe I grew up differently, maybe I was raised to love humans, related or not, known or not. A pat on my shoulder, a touch on my hand, a hug, a kiss on the cheek or forehead...they are all normal as far as I'm concerned. You guys CAN kiss my kids. It's ok.

I grew up like that too! And in school, I have the fondest memories of TEACHERS hugging AND kissing me on the head. I felt loved because it was innocently expressed. Can you imagine a teacher doing that now? No! Touching, let alone kissing, is prohibited! Even rubbing a child's back! I think that is sad.

You are so right! I remember when a teacher would hug me , I felt so much appreciation and I felt important and I had this feeling that I'm being recognized for my merits, like I'm doing something good to deserve a hug from THE teacher. I work in a school now and you are right...nobody is allowed to touch the children. It IS sad!

While I understand touching pregnant's belly might be uncomfortable suing for that or comparing it to sexual assault is ridiculous.

I'm not sure that statement is so accurate. If I were a pregnant woman, I imagine I would be creeped out by a man I don't know hugging me and patting my pregnant belly. Ask my permission first, dammit! If she wants to sue, I don't blame her.

This neighbor should have asked first. It sounds wonderful to have a society where touch is more accepted. But, this is foreign to me since the touch I got growing up was when I was being physically assaulted. When men have touched/patted/groped me in public places, I have been quite confrontational to protect my space. Everybody has different experiences, so I'm not dismissing others, but given my experiences I don't want anyone touching me except my husband.

I would be afraid that this neighbor would assume he could get physical with my kid, too, and there would be no way I would sit for that. Maybe he was innocent, but I would worry about it being a boundary test. Which a co-worker clued me in on when I was puzzled by some odd behavior from another co-worker. Basically, some will purposely test your boundary through inappropriate touching to see if you'll do anything to stop it. So, they can see what they can get away with and if they would be wasting time on you if you do protect your boundaries.

Maybe this pregnant women had a reason to not want strangers or non-family members to touch her.

This neighbor should have asked first. It sounds wonderful to have a society where touch is more accepted. But, this is foreign to me since the touch I got growing up was when I was being physically assaulted. When men have touched/patted/groped me in public places, I have been quite confrontational to protect my space. Everybody has different experiences, so I'm not dismissing others, but given my experiences I don't want anyone touching me except my husband.

I would be afraid that this neighbor would assume he could get physical with my kid, too, and there would be no way I would sit for that. Maybe he was innocent, but I would worry about it being a boundary test. Which a co-worker clued me in on when I was puzzled by some odd behavior from another co-worker. Basically, some will purposely test your boundary through inappropriate touching to see if you'll do anything to stop it. So, they can see what they can get away with and if they would be wasting time on you if you do protect your boundaries.

Maybe this pregnant women had a reason to not want strangers or non-family members to touch her.

Even worse: According to the news story about this case, the man rubbed his pregnant neighbor's belly even after she told him not to. Rubbing a pregnant woman's belly without asking first may be acceptable to some, unacceptable to others, but rubbing a pregnant woman's belly after she tells you to stop is just plain wrong. Whenever someone tells you to stop doing something that makes her feel uncomfortable, and you continue to do it anyway, that's harassment.

I think we live in an era where people are overly sensitive and very easily offended.

I feel the urge to touch the pregnant bellies only because I want to connect with the baby. I don't care about the actual belly, I want to feel the baby. I don't do it because I'm scared of people's reactions and certainly I won't like to get sued.

I really don't think Theotokos would've been upset if people would've touched her blessed belly.

...is not a stranger patting her baby bump, but, a well loved Aunt, with whom the Virgin was very comfortable.

I do not agree with the statement that she would allow anyone to rub her tummy. In those days women were even more modest than today (if you can imagine that ). There's no way she would have allowed a man to touch her.

As for this case...it IS creepy. You should never take liberties with others just because it makes you feel good. Nonsense.

I hug kids. But, I only hug the kids I know. I am their teacher and they come running to me when they see me coming...and in return they receive a hug bear hug and perhaps a kiss on the head from me. The other children standing next to them, who are not my students and to whom I am not "close", I will pat their head or just say "hi".

You have to judge the recipient. Do they wish to be touched, hugged, kissed? If you aren't sure, leave them alone....and move on.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 12:43:31 PM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I would be afraid that this neighbor would assume he could get physical with my kid, too, and there would be no way I would sit for that. Maybe he was innocent, but I would worry about it being a boundary test.

Actually, I did not. However, these kids know and love me, as much as I know and love them. I am like an aunt to each one. They come to me with their fears and their tears and their joys. When I walk in the room, they actually come running to me, expecting the hug, to be picked up, to be cuddled. Even the teenagers come up to me waiting for a hug.

As I mentioned, I do not hug or touch kids who are not "close" to me. So, if Achronos's kids were to come up to me, I would bend down and talk to them and maybe pat their heads.

I normally do not run up to the kids to give them a hug. My hug comes as a response to those little outstretched hands coming towards me. I am not the initiator, nor do I feel a "need" to touch them....only to express my love to those whom I know and care for.

Touching a strange belly because there is a child within, would never enter my mind. The most I would do is be nicer to the pregnant woman, let her go ahead of me, give her my seat, etc. I would never even ask if I could touch her, because that would just be wrong.

You are lucky you don't live in the "old" country ....where you would get your hand slapped because the woman and her baba would think you were trying to curse the child, take their youth or health for yourself, etc, by touching them. Normally, the child is protected from all strangers (evil eye....) until it is properly baptized.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 01:14:48 PM by LizaSymonenko »

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

You are lucky you don't live in the "old" country ....where you would get your hand slapped because the woman and her baba would think you were trying to curse the child, take their youth or health for yourself, etc, by touching them. Normally, the child is protected from all strangers (evil eye....) until it is properly baptized.

Actually, I did not. However, these kids know and love me, as much as I know and love them. I am like an aunt to each one. They come to me with their fears and their tears and their joys. When I walk in the room, they actually come running to me, expecting the hug, to be picked up, to be cuddled. Even the teenagers come up to me waiting for a hug.

As I mentioned, I do not hug or touch kids who are not "close" to me. So, if Achronos's kids were to come up to me, I would bend down and talk to them and maybe pat their heads.

I normally do not run up to the kids to give them a hug. My hug comes as a response to those little outstretched hands coming towards me. I am not the initiator, nor do I feel a "need" to touch them....only to express my love to those whom I know and care for.

Touching a strange belly because there is a child within, would never enter my mind. The most I would do is be nicer to the pregnant woman, let her go ahead of me, give her my seat, etc. I would never even ask if I could touch her, because that would just be wrong.

You are lucky you don't live in the "old" country ....where you would get your hand slapped because the woman and her baba would think you were trying to curse the child, take their youth or health for yourself, etc, by touching them. Normally, the child is protected from all strangers (evil eye....) until it is properly baptized.

You may think you're like an aunt, but their parents might consider you a stranger. "Don't be touching on my child even though in his innocence (key word -innocence) he wants a hug. He don't know any better and you might be a perv who just wants to rub on my child." Just saying.......This society makes me sick sometimes.

Actually, I did not. However, these kids know and love me, as much as I know and love them. I am like an aunt to each one. They come to me with their fears and their tears and their joys. When I walk in the room, they actually come running to me, expecting the hug, to be picked up, to be cuddled. Even the teenagers come up to me waiting for a hug.

As I mentioned, I do not hug or touch kids who are not "close" to me. So, if Achronos's kids were to come up to me, I would bend down and talk to them and maybe pat their heads.

I normally do not run up to the kids to give them a hug. My hug comes as a response to those little outstretched hands coming towards me. I am not the initiator, nor do I feel a "need" to touch them....only to express my love to those whom I know and care for.

Touching a strange belly because there is a child within, would never enter my mind. The most I would do is be nicer to the pregnant woman, let her go ahead of me, give her my seat, etc. I would never even ask if I could touch her, because that would just be wrong.

You are lucky you don't live in the "old" country ....where you would get your hand slapped because the woman and her baba would think you were trying to curse the child, take their youth or health for yourself, etc, by touching them. Normally, the child is protected from all strangers (evil eye....) until it is properly baptized.

You may think you're like an aunt, but their parents might consider you a stranger. "Don't be touching on my child even though in his innocence (key word -innocence) he wants a hug. He don't know any better and you might be a perv who just wants to rub on my child." Just saying.......This society makes me sick sometimes.

...actually, the parents have no issues, and often in church will send their kids to stand with me. They are well aware of their kids' affections towards me and mine towards them.

See, that's the difference. They all know me. They all know I would do anything for any one of those children, whom I greatly love.

Now, if I were in line at a grocery store, and some unknown child wondered over and raised her arms to me....I would not pick her up, nor hug her, but, perhaps take her by that outstretched hand and lead her back to the parent, or take her to the front counter to have her parent paged.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

You may think you're like an aunt, but their parents might consider you a stranger. "Don't be touching on my child even though in his innocence (key word -innocence) he wants a hug. He don't know any better and you might be a perv who just wants to rub on my child." Just saying.......This society makes me sick sometimes.

So, how often do you go around hugging/touching random children and/or pregnant women?

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

You may think you're like an aunt, but their parents might consider you a stranger. "Don't be touching on my child even though in his innocence (key word -innocence) he wants a hug. He don't know any better and you might be a perv who just wants to rub on my child." Just saying.......This society makes me sick sometimes.

You really don't get it do you.

Liza was more charitable than I would have been.

I could use a hug from Liza though.

Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

There might be some conflict between Western and traditional culture in this. Maybe pregnant women are one of the last vestiges of non-individualist culture.

I still think it's extremely awkward though.

So, creepy people who come up to pregnant women and rub their bellies without asking are actually the few, enlightened non-individualists? Communitarianists, if you will; "it takes a village" and all that.

No.

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

There might be some conflict between Western and traditional culture in this. Maybe pregnant women are one of the last vestiges of non-individualist culture.

I don't know anything about individualist vs. non-individualist cultures, but I do know that pregnant women are individual human beings who deserve to have their wishes respected as far as who may touch them and who may not, same as any other people.

Why are some things so easily reduced to political abstractions? The lady didn't want her belly touched and her neighbor went ahead and did it anyway. They're probably both from the same culture, and the guy is a creep regardless.

I don't even like people standing around on the corner outside of my apartment building. Get outta here, you probably drug-selling bums.

LOL! You are a bit TOO sensitive! How do you handle standing in church and rubbing elbows with others?

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I just want to jump in and give the 'back in the day' answer. This was never odd or creepy when I was growing up, but also, never did someone just reach out and start rubbing.

I've seen it many times--a person, most often a friend or relative, will comment on how you're 'glowing,' and then they would ask permission! More often than not, they would ask the mother if the baby was kicking, but then if they wanted to touch the mother's stomach, they 1) always asked first, and 2) it was to see if they could feel the baby (men especially, as pregnancy is something they can't experience first-hand), and 3) there was never any rubbing involved. It was a touch. If given permission, they placed their hand on the mother's stomach in the hopes of feeling a kick, or the baby's hand or foot. At no point in time did the rubbin' commence.

As a society, we've just gotten entirely too weird.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 06:03:08 PM by newtoorthodoxy »

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Some of my questions might appear patently stupid to those well-versed in Orthodoxy, but I'm brand new, having no background in the faith. Please grant me a great deal of patience and consideration as I learn the basics.

I just want to jump in and give the 'back in the day' answer. This was never odd or creepy when I was growing up, but also, never did someone reach out and just start rubbing.

I've seen it many times--a person, most often a friend or relative, will comment on how you're 'glowing,' and then ask permission! More often than not, they would ask the mother if the baby was kicking, but then if they wanted to touch the mother's stomach, they 1) always asked first, and 2) it was to see if they could feel the baby (men especially, as pregnancy is something they can't experience first-hand), and 3) there was never any rubbing involved. It was a touch. If given permission, they placed their hand on the mother's stomach in the hopes of feeling a kick, or the baby's hand or foot. At no point in time did the rubbin' commence.

As a society, we've just gotten entirely too weird.

This was my experience, too. If you aren't family or an intimate friend, you better ask. Otherwise, it's just weird.

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Apparently some people do. It's rather strange and somewhat rude if you ask me. Pregnant women are often so insecure and emotionally volatile because of what they are going through that I wouldn't want to possibly do anything that could further tick her off or add to her troubles. I'd never bring up a woman's pregnancy either--it will only make her feel fat and even more depressed. Only time I rub a pregnant woman's belly is when she offers or asks me to, and I do it to be polite. Personally, I find it kind of scary and creepy. I wouldn't want to somehow be responsible for a miscarriage or birth defect on the baby if some freak accident occurred.

LOL! You are a bit TOO sensitive! How do you handle standing in church and rubbing elbows with others?

Our church is so small, this doesn't really happen unless there's some reason for someone to be right next to me (say, when there's a priest from Egypt who doesn't speak English and they want to translate the important parts of his sermon in a low voice without bothering other people; that's fine).

Apparently some people do. It's rather strange and somewhat rude if you ask me. Pregnant women are often so insecure and emotionally volatile because of what they are going through that I wouldn't want to possibly do anything that could further tick her off or add to her troubles. I'd never bring up a woman's pregnancy either--it will only make her feel fat and even more depressed. Only time I rub a pregnant woman's belly is when she offers or asks me to, and I do it to be polite. Personally, I find it kind of scary and creepy. I wouldn't want to somehow be responsible for a miscarriage or birth defect on the baby if some freak accident occurred.

Ugh, seriously. My apartment is on the corner. I can hear you selling drugs and getting into fights and whatnot. I can hear it. It's literally less than 5 feet outside my window.

We had a lot of burglaries and a few murders in the complex I lived in. Thank God I only lived there for three years. It was the cheapest place that would accept my dogs. I had to have German Shepherds so people wouldn't bother us. Go figure.

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Apparently some people do. It's rather strange and somewhat rude if you ask me. Pregnant women are often so insecure and emotionally volatile because of what they are going through that I wouldn't want to possibly do anything that could further tick her off or add to her troubles. I'd never bring up a woman's pregnancy either--it will only make her feel fat and even more depressed. Only time I rub a pregnant woman's belly is when she offers or asks me to, and I do it to be polite. Personally, I find it kind of scary and creepy. I wouldn't want to somehow be responsible for a miscarriage or birth defect on the baby if some freak accident occurred.

Yes, the classic male faux pas: NEVER ask a woman if she's pregnant or assume that she is when you talk to her. If she isn't pregnant, then you basically just called her fat.

Yes, the classic male faux pas: NEVER ask a woman if she's pregnant or assume that she is when you talk to her. If she isn't pregnant, then you basically just called her fat.

I am totally passing for pregnant. If someone asks me my due date, I just give them one.

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Some of my questions might appear patently stupid to those well-versed in Orthodoxy, but I'm brand new, having no background in the faith. Please grant me a great deal of patience and consideration as I learn the basics.

I had my belly rubbed against my will with each pregnancy. People do it, but I will say that the greater percentage in my limited experience was women. I would just take a step back while smiling and try to remind myself that it's good that people are excited about babies... so excited that they've seemingly forgotten the baby is living in me still. It's rude and people should know better, but it's never ruined my day so much I felt the need to file harassment charges.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

I had my belly rubbed against my will with each pregnancy. People do it, but I will say that the greater percentage in my limited experience was women. I would just take a step back while smiling and try to remind myself that it's good that people are excited about babies... so excited that they've seemingly forgotten the baby is living in me still. It's rude and people should know better, but it's never ruined my day so much I felt the need to file harassment charges.

Ok. Don't take my word for it. Read some studies about the importance of touch, touch deprivation, touch as a communication tool in a human and non-human and so on.

And don't kiss my kids.

I got a story invloving that too.

yes!! Good one! But honestly, I haven't seen that done at all nowadays! Who does that?

This is too strange for me.Maybe I grew up differently, maybe I was raised to love humans, related or not, known or not. A pat on my shoulder, a touch on my hand, a hug, a kiss on the cheek or forehead...they are all normal as far as I'm concerned. You guys CAN kiss my kids. It's ok.

I grew up like that too! And in school, I have the fondest memories of TEACHERS hugging AND kissing me on the head. I felt loved because it was innocently expressed. Can you imagine a teacher doing that now? No! Touching, let alone kissing, is prohibited! Even rubbing a child's back! I think that is sad.

You are so right! I remember when a teacher would hug me , I felt so much appreciation and I felt important and I had this feeling that I'm being recognized for my merits, like I'm doing something good to deserve a hug from THE teacher. I work in a school now and you are right...nobody is allowed to touch the children. It IS sad!

I had a teacher who was a shoulder-toucher. It was creepy and uncomfortable. I'm sure he was okay, but there was another teacher at the school who is now serving time for criminal touching. There have to be boundaries.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I just want to jump in and give the 'back in the day' answer. This was never odd or creepy when I was growing up, but also, never did someone reach out and just start rubbing.

I've seen it many times--a person, most often a friend or relative, will comment on how you're 'glowing,' and then ask permission! More often than not, they would ask the mother if the baby was kicking, but then if they wanted to touch the mother's stomach, they 1) always asked first, and 2) it was to see if they could feel the baby (men especially, as pregnancy is something they can't experience first-hand), and 3) there was never any rubbing involved. It was a touch. If given permission, they placed their hand on the mother's stomach in the hopes of feeling a kick, or the baby's hand or foot. At no point in time did the rubbin' commence.

As a society, we've just gotten entirely too weird.

This was my experience, too. If you aren't family or an intimate friend, you better ask. Otherwise, it's just weird.

Wouldn't it also be weird if a stranger came up to you and asked to rub your belly?

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I had my belly rubbed against my will with each pregnancy. People do it, but I will say that the greater percentage in my limited experience was women. I would just take a step back while smiling and try to remind myself that it's good that people are excited about babies... so excited that they've seemingly forgotten the baby is living in me still. It's rude and people should know better, but it's never ruined my day so much I felt the need to file harassment charges.

You could make an off-hand comment as they're rubbing your belly, "Yeah, I've been feeling sicker than usual since becoming pregnant. Had to send a sample to the CDC. I hope I don't have to be quarantined."

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I had my belly rubbed against my will with each pregnancy. People do it, but I will say that the greater percentage in my limited experience was women. I would just take a step back while smiling and try to remind myself that it's good that people are excited about babies... so excited that they've seemingly forgotten the baby is living in me still. It's rude and people should know better, but it's never ruined my day so much I felt the need to file harassment charges.

Did anyone keep going when you told them to stop?

No. Did he do that to her in the article? I missed that.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

I had my belly rubbed against my will with each pregnancy. People do it, but I will say that the greater percentage in my limited experience was women. I would just take a step back while smiling and try to remind myself that it's good that people are excited about babies... so excited that they've seemingly forgotten the baby is living in me still. It's rude and people should know better, but it's never ruined my day so much I felt the need to file harassment charges.

You could make an off-hand comment as they're rubbing your belly, "Yeah, I've been feeling sicker than usual since becoming pregnant. Had to send a sample to the CDC. I hope I don't have to be quarantined."

Ha! Nice.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

I had my belly rubbed against my will with each pregnancy. People do it, but I will say that the greater percentage in my limited experience was women. I would just take a step back while smiling and try to remind myself that it's good that people are excited about babies... so excited that they've seemingly forgotten the baby is living in me still. It's rude and people should know better, but it's never ruined my day so much I felt the need to file harassment charges.

You could make an off-hand comment as they're rubbing your belly, "Yeah, I've been feeling sicker than usual since becoming pregnant. Had to send a sample to the CDC. I hope I don't have to be quarantined."

Ha! Nice.

I offered to buy a pregnant woman a drink once. She acted as though as I was the worst thing on earth. This was about 1AM in a smoke filled bar.

I can definitely understand being upset over a stranger rubbing your belly without permission. I'm mixed on filing charges over it, but if the neighbor repeatedly did it and refused to stop... Although, even then it makes me wonder if the neighbor's forcing himself into close proximity with her to do it, or if she still kept approaching him.

I had my belly rubbed against my will with each pregnancy. People do it, but I will say that the greater percentage in my limited experience was women. I would just take a step back while smiling and try to remind myself that it's good that people are excited about babies... so excited that they've seemingly forgotten the baby is living in me still. It's rude and people should know better, but it's never ruined my day so much I felt the need to file harassment charges.

Did anyone keep going when you told them to stop?

No. Did he do that to her in the article? I missed that.

According to the article I read this morning, he did.

Quote

"There was a woman who was pregnant and (a) man had touched her belly area, which women have to go through all the time, and she didn't permit him to do that, and then he repeated it, so she decided to file charges," DiLucente said.

she has the right to be offended. Hopefully the charge is not too big. But one day her hatred will have to be given an accounting. God is fair to all. Some are not loving to strangers. She would have to prove to God one day she does not hate strangers and wanted them to be saved. If it was a big charge which would ruin a life I do not think God would forgive such a person as the person is careless caring about ones own comfort more than a stranger and denying the pain one afflictsHowever I suppose nothing bad can happen to Gods elect who love Him without God's permission so I would bring my grievance to God

she has the right to be offended. Hopefully the charge is not too big. But one day her hatred will have to be given an accounting. God is fair to all. Some are not loving to strangers. She would have to prove to God one day she does not hate strangers and wanted them to be saved. If it was a big charge which would ruin a life I do not think God would forgive such a person as the person is careless caring about ones own comfort more than a stranger and denying the pain one afflicts

mikeforjesus, there is no "hatred" in the woman's action against this person who clearly overstepped the boundaries of respectful and decent behavior. It's also presumptuous of you to suggest God "might not forgive" the woman for the action she took.

If your sister was pregnant and was accosted by a man in the same way, and made to feel uncomfortable and even threatened by him when he refused to stop, what do you think she should do?

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she has the right to be offended. Hopefully the charge is not too big. But one day her hatred will have to be given an accounting. God is fair to all. Some are not loving to strangers. She would have to prove to God one day she does not hate strangers and wanted them to be saved. If it was a big charge which would ruin a life I do not think God would forgive such a person as the person is careless caring about ones own comfort more than a stranger and denying the pain one afflicts

mikeforjesus, there is no "hatred" in the woman's action against this person who clearly overstepped the boundaries of respectful and decent behavior. It's also presumptuous of you to suggest God "might not forgive" the woman for the action she took.

If your sister was pregnant and was accosted by a man in the same way, and made to feel uncomfortable and even threatened by him when he refused to stop, what do you think she should do?

truth is I judge my sister also for lack of compassion sometimes. I hope she is learning through me to show compassion. If it is as you describe she has reason to be offended but thats not how it seemed to me. Also I did not know he threatened her. I thought it was just someone who wants to be nice

she has the right to be offended. Hopefully the charge is not too big. But one day her hatred will have to be given an accounting. God is fair to all. Some are not loving to strangers. She would have to prove to God one day she does not hate strangers and wanted them to be saved. If it was a big charge which would ruin a life I do not think God would forgive such a person as the person is careless caring about ones own comfort more than a stranger and denying the pain one afflicts

mikeforjesus, there is no "hatred" in the woman's action against this person who clearly overstepped the boundaries of respectful and decent behavior. It's also presumptuous of you to suggest God "might not forgive" the woman for the action she took.

If your sister was pregnant and was accosted by a man in the same way, and made to feel uncomfortable and even threatened by him when he refused to stop, what do you think she should do?

truth is I judge my sister also for lack of compassion sometimes. I hope she is learning through me to show compassion. If it is as you describe she has reason to be offended but thats not how it seemed to me. Also I did not know he threatened her. I thought it was just someone who wants to be nice

The woman told him to stop, yet he continued his behavior. She had every right to feel uncomfortable, vulnerable, intimidated and threatened. Threatening behavior need not involve violence or anger.

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Wanting to rub the woman's belly against her wishes is bad enough, but saying to her "I want to be your friend" while doing so elevates it to a creepiness that's almost sinister. Ugh!!!

LBK got it in one. His whole approach to the neighbour, even before the belly rub component, would set off alarm bells in any woman. A man, upon meeting a woman for the first time, gives her a bear hug and says, "I just want to be friends"? Ugh, what? You want to be "just friends"? Yeah sure. He's lucky that all he got was a shove and a harassment charge...

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Live in South/East Auckland, Franklin or North Waikato regions of New Zealand? Interested in Orthodoxy? Need transport to an Orthodox Church? Want to meet others? Please send me a PM

"You have made us for yourself, Lord; and our hearts are restless until they rest in You" - St. Augustine (my patron saint)

I am, by nature, a very affectionate person and always have been; allegedly not a terribly common trait among Irish males and one that seemingly baffled my relatives throughout my childhood. (They got used to it - only took them about 20 years or so.)

I suppose it accounts, in part, for how well and how quickly I came to fit in with my Lebanese and Syrian co-religionists when I first ventured into the Melkite community - not every Irishman is comfortable being hugged and kissed three times on being introduced (and at every meeting and parting thereafter, onto ages of ages).

Nothing has changed and I still am just as physically affectionate with my children, grandson, nieces and nephews, cousins, and their children, as well as with my closest friends and their children - and they with me. Even some co-workers see me as someone whom it's 'ok' to greet with a hug after not having seen one another for awhile (a recent consolidation of two of our work-sites brought me into contact for the first time in a couple of years with several young women who were my students for several months when they first came on-board as trainees, and I was nearly bowled over with enthused greetings accompanied by heartfelt hugs).

But, never, not once in my entire life, have I rubbed the pregnant (or otherwise) belly of any woman - heck, I don't think that I ever even did so with either of my wives during their pregnancies - and I had 5 opportunities. (Yes, I did 'feel' the kicks on request, but never randomly rubbed their bellies as some do a statue of Buddha, for luck.)

It is, decidedly, 'creepy' for a neighbor to do so and, as has been said by my brothers and sisters here, it is, at the very least, tasteless, and it demonstrates either a flagrant disregard for the personal space of another or a testing of boundaries - the one is at minimum thoughtless, the other intimidating, violative, and potentially even threatening.

Many years,

Neil

« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 04:20:15 AM by Irish Melkite »

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"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- heck, I don't think that I ever even did so with either of my wives during their pregnancies - and I had 5 opportunities. (Yes, I did 'feel' the kicks on request, but never randomly rubbed their bellies as some do a statue of Buddha, for luck.)

LOL! For some reason, upon first reading this, I thought you had multiple wives, at the same time! 5 of them, no less!

I need my coffee.

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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

- heck, I don't think that I ever even did so with either of my wives during their pregnancies - and I had 5 opportunities. (Yes, I did 'feel' the kicks on request, but never randomly rubbed their bellies as some do a statue of Buddha, for luck.)

LOL! For some reason, upon first reading this, I thought you had multiple wives, at the same time! 5 of them, no less!

I need my coffee.

Actually that's what I was thinking too. Usually divorced you refer them as ex-wives.

5 wives...ain't it enough suffering with just one?

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

- heck, I don't think that I ever even did so with either of my wives during their pregnancies - and I had 5 opportunities. (Yes, I did 'feel' the kicks on request, but never randomly rubbed their bellies as some do a statue of Buddha, for luck.)

LOL! For some reason, upon first reading this, I thought you had multiple wives, at the same time! 5 of them, no less!

I need my coffee.

Actually that's what I was thinking too. Usually divorced you refer them as ex-wives.

There might be some conflict between Western and traditional culture in this. Maybe pregnant women are one of the last vestiges of non-individualist culture.

I still think it's extremely awkward though.

So, creepy people who come up to pregnant women and rub their bellies without asking are actually the few, enlightened non-individualists? Communitarianists, if you will; "it takes a village" and all that.

Nobody attempted that on me during my pregnancy, thank goodness. I might have been okay with a woman; some just radiate goodwill. But, with both my father and father-in-law gone, the only male I would allow anywhere near my belly was my husband. Anyone else trying would have got a shiner for his pains. Before the lawsuit and restraining order.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 02:21:39 PM by Arachne »

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Nobody attempted that on me during my pregnancy, thank goodness. I might have been okay with a woman; some just radiate goodwill. But, with both my father and father-in-law gone, the only male I would allow anywhere near my belly was my husband. Anyone else trying would have got a shiner for his pains. Before the lawsuit and restraining order.

And it would have been wholly justified.

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

On a somewhat related note, does the pregnant woman feel any pain when the baby "kicks"?

I never experienced pain, and my son did so much kicking, I thought he was bouncing a ball around in there. That's not to say that other women don't experience pain. Most women have some sort of morning sickness, and never got any of that, either.

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Some of my questions might appear patently stupid to those well-versed in Orthodoxy, but I'm brand new, having no background in the faith. Please grant me a great deal of patience and consideration as I learn the basics.

On a somewhat related note, does the pregnant woman feel any pain when the baby "kicks"?

I never experienced pain, and my son did so much kicking, I thought he was bouncing a ball around in there. That's not to say that other women don't experience pain. Most women have some sort of morning sickness, and never got any of that, either.

It can be painful if the baby's position sends the kicks towards sensitive areas (stomach, ribs, full bladder). Otherwise, it's just a kind of fluttery bouncing. Even fun, at times.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

I recall being touched a lot with each pregnancy, after the second or third time I didn't care anymore and accepted that the larger the belly the more they want to touch for whatever reason. It was always older women though so it wasn't creepy to me.

The only time it really bothered me was the one time someone asked if I was having twins.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 10:05:06 PM by rebecca.ann »

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"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

- heck, I don't think that I ever even did so with either of my wives during their pregnancies - and I had 5 opportunities. (Yes, I did 'feel' the kicks on request, but never randomly rubbed their bellies as some do a statue of Buddha, for luck.)

LOL! For some reason, upon first reading this, I thought you had multiple wives, at the same time! 5 of them, no less!

Umm, that nick is 'Melkite' Liza, not 'Mormon'

Many years,

Neil

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"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

I have never had the desire to rub a pregnant woman's belly. I just cannot understand the urge. Part of this may be the fact that I have this bizarre feeling that if I were to poke a pregnant woman's belly pillsbury doughboy style it would rupture and the little guy would slither down my throat like an alien. I realize this is unfounded in fact, but when I am around pregnant women and feel like I might bump them in anyway, shape, or form I tense up and get nervous. In the same line of thought I try to avoid newborns when at all possible. They aren't as slimy as babies in the womb but I still have this fear that they will coat themselves in the ubiquitous crap and vomit and then try to slither down my gullet.

I have never had the desire to rub a pregnant woman's belly. I just cannot understand the urge. Part of this may be the fact that I have this bizarre feeling that if I were to poke a pregnant woman's belly pillsbury doughboy style it would rupture and the little guy would slither down my throat like an alien. I realize this is unfounded in fact, but when I am around pregnant women and feel like I might bump them in anyway, shape, or form I tense up and get nervous. In the same line of thought I try to avoid newborns when at all possible. They aren't as slimy as babies in the womb but I still have this fear that they will coat themselves in the ubiquitous crap and vomit and then try to slither down my gullet.

This whole topic just gives me the willies.

Sounds like you had the willies before the topic ever came up.

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Mor no longer posts on OCNet. He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants. But he really isn't around anymore.

On a somewhat related note, does the pregnant woman feel any pain when the baby "kicks"?

I never experienced pain, and my son did so much kicking, I thought he was bouncing a ball around in there. That's not to say that other women don't experience pain. Most women have some sort of morning sickness, and never got any of that, either.

It can be painful if the baby's position sends the kicks towards sensitive areas (stomach, ribs, full bladder). Otherwise, it's just a kind of fluttery bouncing. Even fun, at times.

Fun until you're trying to fall asleep at night and suddenly the baby has hiccups. Then you have to try to ignore the continuous, rhythmic bouncing.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

On a somewhat related note, does the pregnant woman feel any pain when the baby "kicks"?

I never experienced pain, and my son did so much kicking, I thought he was bouncing a ball around in there. That's not to say that other women don't experience pain. Most women have some sort of morning sickness, and never got any of that, either.

It can be painful if the baby's position sends the kicks towards sensitive areas (stomach, ribs, full bladder). Otherwise, it's just a kind of fluttery bouncing. Even fun, at times.

Fun until you're trying to fall asleep at night and suddenly the baby has hiccups. Then you have to try to ignore the continuous, rhythmic bouncing.

I do not remember hiccups at night. Guess I was so tired that I slept through it.

On a somewhat related note, does the pregnant woman feel any pain when the baby "kicks"?

I never experienced pain, and my son did so much kicking, I thought he was bouncing a ball around in there. That's not to say that other women don't experience pain. Most women have some sort of morning sickness, and never got any of that, either.

It can be painful if the baby's position sends the kicks towards sensitive areas (stomach, ribs, full bladder). Otherwise, it's just a kind of fluttery bouncing. Even fun, at times.

Fun until you're trying to fall asleep at night and suddenly the baby has hiccups. Then you have to try to ignore the continuous, rhythmic bouncing.

I do not remember hiccups at night. Guess I was so tired that I slept through it.

Maybe you had a more considerate baby.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

Now let me, in my dotage, get this straight. If I am brazen enough to accost some unfortunate pregnant women and rub her belly I'll get pregnant! Now I might have forgotten a few of the ins and outs of conception but someone really has got the most crazy imagination. They need to take more water with their drink.

My children and grandchildren bestowed it upon me, and all the local children and teenagers call me Santa. Have even had young ones call round and ask to see the reindeer (sigh, how do you answer that one).

My children and grandchildren bestowed it upon me, and all the local children and teenagers call me Santa. Have even had young ones call round and ask to see the reindeer (sigh, how do you answer that one).

I hope one day I will look slovenly enough to be called Grinch.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”