I won't give a reference to anyone unless they have spoken to me beforehand about it. It's a trick bag full of snakes that can bite you in many different ways if it's not discussed. I've told some friends/associates that asked me to give them a good reference that I could not do so in good faith. When asked why I would tell them. Did they like it? No. Did they appreciate the honesty? Yes. Still friends or associates? Yes. In any case a true friend tells it like it is. Lying for a friend is dishonesty in one of it's most insidious of forms and by doing so you dishonor your friend, your friendship and yourself. And for all those that think it ends once you recommend someone you are dead wrong. All I can say is go around the block a few times and you'll know what I mean.

I won't give a reference to anyone unless they have spoken to me beforehand about it. It's a trick bag full of snakes that can bite you in many different ways if it's not discussed. I've told some friends/associates that asked me to give them a good reference that I could not do so in good faith. When asked why I would tell them. Did they like it? No. Did they appreciate the honesty? Yes. Still friends or associates? Yes. In any case a true friend tells it like it is. Lying for a friend is dishonesty in one of it's most insidious of forms and by doing so you dishonor your friend, your friendship and yourself. And for all those that think it ends once you recommend someone you are dead wrong. All I can say is go around the block a few times and you'll know what I mean.

And for all those that think it ends once you recommend someone you are dead wrong. All I can say is go around the block a few times and you'll know what I mean.

It depends on the industry and the types of companies/jobs being applied for. If it's a large industry that someone is applying for a low to mid level position, it has little chance of coming back to bite you. Most likely the referral will be given to an HR person at some point and be forgotten in short order.

If it's a smaller industry or a more senior level position, you are right, it could come back and bite you.

I still think the answer is you speak well of them to what there is well to speak of. There has to be a few good qualities to this person or they wouldn't be your friend in the first place. If you are keeping friends with no good qualities, then maybe you need to take a step back and question why.

Just to play devil's advocate, is writing a reference for a friend that highlights their strong points or spins things in a positive way and glosses over/ignores the negative different from highlighting your own strong points and glossing over the negative in a job interview? If you were being interviewed, would you say "I'm not always on time, I can be unreliable, I need pretty constant supervision to stay on task, etc."? I just wonder if highlighting the positive and underplaying or ignoring the negative in a recommendation for a friend to get a job is ethically any different than doing the same thing to get yourself a job.

Just to play devil's advocate, is writing a reference for a friend that highlights their strong points or spins things in a positive way and glosses over/ignores the negative different from highlighting your own strong points and glossing over the negative in a job interview? If you were being interviewed, would you say "I'm not always on time, I can be unreliable, I need pretty constant supervision to stay on task, etc."? I just wonder if highlighting the positive and underplaying or ignoring the negative in a recommendation for a friend to get a job is ethically any different than doing the same thing to get yourself a job.

Yes, it's different. It's for the very reason the people aren't honest about themselves that potential employers ask for references. If everybody were honest, references would be completely unnecessary.

And before anybody chimes in and says "nobody gives bad references," they sure as hell do. Plenty.

In addition to the shortcomings that the OP listed, the friend is also very lousy at picking friends. And LOL at people who think their positive recommendation will have any consequences for them should the employment not pan out (except in a few very specific lines of work).

Yes, it's different. It's for the very reason the people aren't honest about themselves that potential employers ask for references. If everybody were honest, references would be completely unnecessary.

And before anybody chimes in and says "nobody gives bad references," they sure as hell do. Plenty.

Does that make it ethically different though? One is lying for your own benefit, and one is lying for your friend's benefit.

Does that make it ethically different though? One is lying for your own benefit, and one is lying for your friend's benefit.

I would still say 'yes.' One does not necessarily expect a person to outline their own faults. However, if someone accepts the responsibility of being a reference (and it IS a responsibility), then I think most employers would hold them to the standard of honesty.

And LOL at people who think their positive recommendation will have any consequences for them should the employment not pan out (except in a few very specific lines of work).

is very bad advice. It absolutely has consequences. Hell, I used to work for a firm in Singapore that had hired an MD that damn near put the business under. Revenues collapsed and everyone bailed on the firm. I was part of that bail.... The guy who introduced her to that firm and my former CEO and COO are barely on speaking terms to this day over it - and that's like 8 yrs ago. This is not uncommon at all. Be very very careful who you put your name to. I know a lot of people, some I would refer to roles, some I absolutely would not, and some I do so with a shit-ton of disclaimers first about the limits of my own knowledge of that person's professional acumen. Be very very careful who you put your name to.

Hell, I used to work for a firm in Singapore that had hired an MD that damn near put the business under. Revenues collapsed and everyone bailed on the firm. I was part of that bail....

The guy who introduced her to that firm and my former CEO and COO are barely on speaking terms to this day over it - and that's like 8 yrs ago. This is not uncommon at all.

Be very very careful who you put your name to.

I know a lot of people, some I would refer to roles, some I absolutely would not, and some I do so with a shit-ton of disclaimers first about the limits of my own knowledge of that person's professional acumen.

Be very very careful who you put your name to.

Of course!!! That is a very different situation than when you give someone a vanilla recommendation as part of the hiring process. Also, this does not apply to a freaking MD or a CEO or the like, the context here is the guy giving a buddy a personal recommendation.