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Thanks for asking about Leo Flamekat. Sorry to say that the concerns you mentioned play no part in it for me. I am completely fulfilled and maybe even overfilled in those areas.the only concern I have is my loss of intimate connection towards RP....not the loss of anything from her.

__________________
Playing the Game of Life with Monopoly rules.
Monogamy might just be in my genes

I had a thought about jealousy and the times when I have felt it... I have noticed that sometimes I feel dismay and desperate that someone has something I don't and I want it so bad that it hurts... jealousy right? Other times though I display the same reaction, but it is more of a gut reaction. I don't want something, but my gut is telling me something isn't right... this isn't jealousy, but in poly we quite often refer to it as such... maybe looking at it as a gut reaction is a different way of thinking of it. It could be that the person isn't a good fit (for my gut) or that the situation isn't right (for my gut) or that I am struggling with other issues or that I missed some information because it wasn't given to me, or it was misplaced in commotion... all this is not jealousy to me. Why do we call it so in poly?

@Flamecat- I appreciate your attempts to figure Mono out. I love that you are interested rather than judgemental. The approach is refreshing and welcomed. Also very helpful... I wanted to just add that I have actually known Leo just as long as Mono. Actually a few weeks longer. Because of circumstances I didn't get together with him. We became friends instead. His wife a friend of PN. We didn't put that together for a couple of months actually! We both had new friends and then realized the two were married to each other. Because I had started something with Mono and it was all very intense and NREish, I didn't pursue anything with Leo, instead we moved slowly into loving one another, each others partners and kids... spent time all together and then jokingly started having weekly non-sexual dates. We called it non-sexual wife swapping for a bit as PN dated his wife. It worked for us. PN didn't progress in the love/initmate way... I did with Leo.

In order to understand Mono one would have to be here I think. He is very mono. What can I say. Mono, mainstream and conservative. What the hell I am doing with him I don't know as I am so not. Our values are vastly different and our goals are too. He has no desire to change who he is for anyone and neither do I. End of story. I have no idea where this will lead. He is not jealous, he is just himself. Perhaps its his gut, which is what I have indicated above for myself also in times when PN has dated people I just don't have a good feeling about.

Of course this leads into who's right it is to project their gut feelings on others. I get that too and all I can say is that no news is good news right now. We work steadily forward and are talking, going inward and checking EVERYTHING out. Bit by bit

Location: :P Cautiously looking around this new world that seems to fit...

Posts: 311

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

Thanks for asking about Leo Flamekat. Sorry to say that the concerns you mentioned play no part in it for me. I am completely fulfilled and maybe even overfilled in those areas.the only concern I have is my loss of intimate connection towards RP....not the loss of anything from her.

Hmm... I still think my point is valid - as there is a loss involved that is directly correlated to the physical intimacy RP shares with someone else.

(I couldn't care less whether that boundary is 'right' or 'wrong', the boundary exists - my goal is to understand why it exists, because without that understanding it will always be (for me in my situation - and possibly RP) a struggle to accept and stay in line with that boundary - For myself, it is a simple issue of once I understand something - I can then make a decision myself based on full knowledge. Rather than working on blind faith that I am being restricted by someone else for a good reason. for me it is a control thing from my side - If I am not going to do something I want to do, out of respect for someone else - I need to understand why... the depth of understanding I require directly correlates to the depth of need/connection I am being restricted from...)

*again badly worded*

@RP I understand what you are saying. Simply wish to also point out that while Leo may have been known longer - the depth of the relationship, and the addition of physical intimacy to it, is what is 'newer' if you will.

I very much apprecate that you both appreciate I am curious and trying to understand something that has applications and implications for my own situation - not trying to put you guys on the spot at all, and certainly not trying to interfere...

I will, however, let the matter drop as I am sensing you guys need some space again on this... good luck and I hope I haven't stirred the pot at all, and I do apologise for using your current issue as an example in this...

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Smile! It makes people wonder what you've been up to

Hmm... I still think my point is valid - as there is a loss involved that is directly correlated to the physical intimacy RP shares with someone else.

You are truly a respectful and caring person Flamekat...If I told you the idea/image of Redpepper with another man besides PN simply flips a switch within me would that make any sense? There are other factors, which are not of real importance to this forum as they are external and things that I have already discussed, but the core of the issue is how the stream of my sexual energy simply shuts off. I find it hard to explain in more in depth because it is automatic and not something I fully understand. It's like looking at something that has a primal switch...like wanting to protect a child you see being abused....you don't think, your instincts just kick in and you feel something.

It's not disgust in seeing her with another man..we've had threesomes so the whole "OMG another penis was in her mouth!" thing isn't much of a factor...although the thought of another man kissing her or her touching them is an immediate turn off..not in the "holy shit that's gross" sort of way, but in the flipping of a switch sort of way. One second I want her, the next I don't. It's weird I know. In those moments I revel in our friendship but don't feel intimate desire at all. My intimate connection with her simply ceases to be but my appreciation of her friendship blooms. As I have mentioned numerous times, if I am not intimately connected to some one I can barely get it up. I would have a better chance getting it up with a complete stranger because I would not see them as a person I care about, but as someone just to masturbate inside of....and frankly I get off better alone than if I am with someone I don't love.

I will always love Redpepper...that's for sure. How that love is expressed throughout the years may or may not change. We're family for the long haul regardless.

Redpepper also touched on some very real and yet basic things. We desire different things out of relationships. She seeks a greater openness that transcends gender and I do not. We will carry on, see what happens and who knows what will happen...but we'll keep you informed

Thanks for all your thought provoking questions Flamekat. You're right, sometimes we need a break from repeatedly going over the same things. I see the constant questioning of my boundaries as a quest to change who I am wrapped up in words like growth and moving forward (massive trigger to someone who doesn't see having an open relationship as a sign of personal growth...blasphemy I know ). I am working on not allowing questions to trigger me..and the way you ask seems genuine and without malice.

Thanks again

__________________
Playing the Game of Life with Monopoly rules.
Monogamy might just be in my genes

Location: :P Cautiously looking around this new world that seems to fit...

Posts: 311

@Mono...

*picture a very small woman (also with red hair ) jumping on the spot, kicking the dirt "Gosh darn it... there goes all my hopes of understanding this phenomenon"

LOL... ah well, back to the drawing board

your description sounds similar - not the same - but similar to what WW describes. I remain hopeful that one day he will be able to stretch that boundary.

Thank you very much for making the effort to put that into words - particularly for clarifying that there is no disgust factor there - I am not sure if that is a factor for WW, I do hope not - although disgust is something that might be worked on better than a switch?

__________________
Smile! It makes people wonder what you've been up to

although disgust is something that might be worked on better than a switch?

If it was only that easy! I've put most of the main threads that deal with my relationship on my profile page. There are some that really go into more depth about how I work and my boundaries. I figured I would put them there as most of the boundary questions are answered within them.

Small women with red hair....Meeeeowwww!!!

__________________
Playing the Game of Life with Monopoly rules.
Monogamy might just be in my genes

The reason I posted my questions on friday was the natural reaction for people to see jealousy as the root cause behind most discomfort. More or less the default negative emotion. This got me thinking about the concept of negative emotions. Right now I can't think of another emotion... sadness, guilt, anger that get the same dismissive response that jealousy gets. For women its the phrase "is it your period " for men its their "egos" and for small children its" hunger or lack of sleep." For the elderly its diminished mental ability. From very early we have all heard " oh your just jealous" and that may be true more offen than not, however there maybe more complex things going on here in terms of poly type relationships.

I dont think its possible for humans to have an emotion that was made up from our experiences. If that were possible the list would become end list. When I ask how much is learned I now think we must have baseline emotions that are shaped by childhood and other experiences. Just thinking of the images of those huge orphanages in china or russia or where ever that have 100 infants and three or 4 adults to care for them. Those children are said to have numerous emotional and psychological problems.

Mono, Have to agree with your early statements about children and I'll go a step further in regards to animals. I know for a fact if I start wrestling with kid the dogs want in on the action. Also back when wife and I cuddle up our one dog had to try to get in on it as well. I'm sure other dog owners and perhaps cat owners have had similar reactions??? Now I don't know anything about the emotions of animals so I don't know if that is what I'm seeing or not. Next time in the company of a vet I hope I remember to ask.

If you look at other emotions you can see the purpose... sadness contrast of being happy. Sadness feels bad strive for happiness..or without so sadness we never know how good happiness and joy feel? Guilt same thing. guilt feels bad so the behavior which caused the guilt should be avoided. But jealousy is not as easy, or is it?"

I'm not going to say that I've never exhibited jealousy in our relationship prior to my partner's decision to change things. I have had issues with a couple of her x's that I'm pretty sure we *still* haven't resolved.

But now that things have changed... I don't know. I never was bothered with her hanging out with other women before. Now I get all worked up and paranoid over situations that didn't bother me previously. I guess that's a natural part of things. Is talking those feelings out with her the thing to do? Should I talk with someone else? It's not easy to find someone in RL who can empathize, honestly. Folks don't understand nonmonogamy, they don't understand when you are trying to deal with jealousy and not just "ban" certain types of behaviors in your partner.

When I talk about my issues with jealousy it seems to be very upsetting for my partner. I don't want to be passive-aggressive either, though, and I know myself well enough to know that when I don't talk directly about emotions, concerns, and pain that I'm feeling it will come out as passive-aggression (I am a southern lady. We're the world leaders in passive aggressive love war, after all.)

hey Greeneyes do you actually have green eyes or do you see yourself as jealous all the time??? Kidding

I can understand wanting to cry.... but I think you should never feel stupid for having these feelings. Give yourself a little break. This stuff seems very hard for a lot of people.. I put myself at the top of don't get it list. I however at this moment I don't feel stupid, maybe I should.... but not yet. Redpepper had mentioned the idea of " gut feelings" maybe we should all listen and be guided by that principle a little more. Good luck D

hey Greeneyes do you actually have green eyes or do you see yourself as jealous all the time??? Kidding

Weellll.... the handle is a bit of a double entendre. Just trying to be as honest about myself as I can be anonymously ;-P

We had a very long talk today about things. I don't know exactly where we are headed from here... but we did discuss possible unfixable gaps in compatibility. I do have a better idea of where things are, so there's that. At this point I don't want to stop being partners with my partner, and I don't know for sure if I want to "open myself up," either.

I am not philosophically or ideologically against non-monogamy; I really don't think that I am "hard-wired" a certain way. I just don't know if I want to wipe the software, or install new software, or what. I actually "get" non-monogamy in an intellectual sense. It's the visual clues, the fears, the pre-emptive "missing" of regular and mundane things that I am worried will go away. Tonight she was making popcorn in her PJ's and I nearly cried, because I wonder how long we will have nightly cuddle sessions on the couch with popcorn.