Which of the DVDs had the most... info? Which one was the most helpful?

I want to buy them all but for now can only afford one.

I am looking at getting the first one (head modelling) as I am having great difficulty modelling a head.

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by milqman
Which of the DVDs had the most... info? Which one was the most helpful?

I want to buy them all but for now can only afford one.

I am looking at getting the first one (head modelling) as I am having great difficulty modelling a head.
Another option I would recommend are my Lightwave Tour CDs.
They cover a ton of material including modeling, rigging and creating a walk cycle. The other CD also covers head modeling with a very easy to follow technique. Todds DVDs come out to a total of 13 hrs. The Tour CDs I have are over 20 hrs.
You can see a list of whats covered HERE (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/worldwidetour.htm) and HERE (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/nextdimensiontour.htm) . Both CDs are $120.00 for more then 20 hours.
This is the same material that was presented at the Newtek Sponsored World Wide Tour Seminars and Next Dimension Tour Seminars.
I have some of the lectures that cover the head modeling HERE (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/sampler.htm) . The CDs have recieved lots of great reviews and theyre a very good bargain.
You can see some of the shows Ive worked on HERE (http://www.splinegod.com/modeling_and_animations.htm)
Another nice thing is that you have access to our support forum whenever you buy any CDs or courses. :)

dead_eye

07 July 2003, 08:50 AM

The first one is just a basic box modeling, cutting, stretching, and dragging and pushing points around in symmetry mode for two hours :). If that's what you want to see, buy the first video. But it's very hard to watch the whole video in one sitting. Grimes also works very, very, very fast as the first video goes along. He also doesn't use a backdrop image as his reference, but rather a concept sketch. And he doesn't use any plugins, so there's no fancy hair tutorial either.

I liked the body modeling one (the 2nd one) better, and haven't gotten around to watching the others yet. Layout frightens me :scream:.

HCompston

07 July 2003, 10:51 AM

milqman

I was thinking of buying the set as well simply cause I like training videos :) I watched the taster videos they have on the desktop images site and it didnt sound like any explanation was going on while he was modelling the ear at all. And he does model very fast! Great for business not so sure about tutorials. Might still get them If I have some surplus cash :)

I already have the Full set of Larry's CD Course and it is very good. Improved my character modelling skills no end. They are very easy to watch. There is good support on them as well. The only thing I didnt like about them was that you had to watch them on the PC would be much better on DVD that you can watch on a normal player. I could then watch them while my systems are rendering :) But thats just me.

milqman

07 July 2003, 04:37 PM

SplineGod, of the CDs I see on your site, the only two I could afford would be the World Wide Tour CD and the Next Dimension Tour CD.

Out of those two, which would you say covers more stuff?

Do the tutorials in those CDs look the same as those on your sampler page?

rock

07 July 2003, 05:11 PM

Milqman,

Trust me on this one. Forget buying those DVDs unless you have money to waste - it's too expensive. What I think is better for you is to buy this book: Building a Digital Human by Ken Brilliant. You can save 30% from Amazon.

It not only shows clear steps to build a head, but a body as well. It's generic, but the author uses Lightwave in his steps. The steps is very logical and after learning the steps, you can easily apply those techniques to any other characters. The techniques shown is superior than the head modeling tutorial in Inside LW 7 book.

Rock.

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by milqman
SplineGod, of the CDs I see on your site, the only two I could afford would be the World Wide Tour CD and the Next Dimension Tour CD.

Out of those two, which would you say covers more stuff?

Do the tutorials in those CDs look the same as those on your sampler page?
Thanks Harry!
Harrys done very good work so I would have to agree with his statements about his improvements. :)
Id have to say that if your focus right NOW is modeling a head I would say
The Next Dimension Tour CD (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/nextdimensiontour.htm)

jmcalpin

07 July 2003, 06:04 PM

I got the whole set of grimes dvds when i saw them

Each dvd focuses on just one aspect so get the one you need the most help with.

the animation one was really helpful to me. Better than any book and I have most of them. it would be useful in any software btw not just LW.

The head setup dvd was pretty good. box modeling but really interesting to see how he lays out his heads

Body is like the head dvd. good stuff but if you've done online tutorials you know enough to skip thime till later.

the facial setup dvd is really good as it shows how to name your endomorphs to show up right in the morph mixer. rest I knew from online tutorials.

The rigging dvd is really good as well. It explains that there is an importance to the order the skelgons are created and how it works in animation.

So that's an overview of toms dvds.

Splinegods two cds I purchased andhave copied to my laptop so I can reference them at any point. He covers everything in them. Like having a guru in a pocket.

If you want to just learn all the tools in LW I would go with the CDs. Now which one I use more?

Next dimension covered some character tuts but has more of what I call FX stuff. Motion designer, Saslite, Weights etc...

while the world wide tour has alot of character design/rigging and animation stuff in it. It has some FX stuff, particles (not on Next D) and Lighting tuts which are pretty nice.

Oh I use the next dimension more because of all the FX stuff I am working on right now.

So go through the lists to see which you need help with now.

As for Books vs. Videos.

Videos seem to get the point across alot faster and feels easier to understand. Yes, they don't cover as much as a book, but what they do cover is just easier to digest. And watching someone go through the motions is alot more helpful than a book for some tasks.

hope that helps

jay

milqman

07 July 2003, 06:28 PM

i am very interested in the World Wide Tour CD, and I suppose once I have enough money I might purchase it

HCompston

07 July 2003, 07:09 PM

Larry

No problem, just saying it like it is.

Your course worked for me.

Harry

dead_eye

07 July 2003, 07:49 PM

hee, now i'm thinking about buying one of larry's cds. boy, you guys sure know how to sell :p
but i have a question: are the quality of the quicktime videos on the cds the same as the free ones on your webpage or better quality?

milqman

07 July 2003, 07:53 PM

dang they both look so good i can't decide,

SplineGod (or anyone else who has tried the World Wide Tour CD), what kind of character is it that it teaches you to build?

cartoonish/realistic/what?

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by dead_eye
hee, now i'm thinking about buying one of larry's cds. boy, you guys sure know how to sell :p
but i have a question: are the quality of the quicktime videos on the cds the same as the free ones on your webpage or better quality?
Theyre the same quality. The ones I have posted come directly off the actual material.
Milqman,
One thing I will say, Ive modeled head using pretty much every technique out there. Ive been using LW since before it was LW. The problem I see with some methods that are taught is that they ignore or gloss over some very important basic principles in art. Its important when starting out to draw, sculpt, 3D model in such a way that you learn the technical aspect as well as the basic art/anatomy. This is why most good drawing books start out with a circle, then the centerline, eyeline, noseline, etc etc because it starts with the simplest form and lays down the basic proportions. This is exactly the approach I use and its far easier way to get a decent looking head quickly and that you can easily repeat under your own steam with or without reference.
I also dont do anything unless I carefully explain why.

milqman

07 July 2003, 08:23 PM

Sounds great...

my question above: what kind of character is shown made in the World Wide Tour cd? (realistic/cartoony?)

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 09:07 PM

More towards realistic proportions.

carnera

07 July 2003, 09:12 PM

milqman:

here at mba-studios we are actually working on our first lw-training dvd. its gonna be a modeling tutorial dvd.
topic highlights are :
-organic modeling (incl. head modeling )
-none-organic modeling (like weapon, cloth)
-relization of hair using saslight.

we will ship the dvd within the next weeks (but before sigg)

initially we planed to release the dvd mid june, but right now we are working on the cinematics for the game "sacred" (btw...some parts of the cinematics will be shown at sig )...so i need a 48 hour day... ;)

angus1965

07 July 2003, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by SplineGod
Another option I would recommend are my Lightwave Tour CDs.
They cover a ton of material including modeling, rigging and creating a walk cycle. The other CD also covers head modeling with a very easy to follow technique. Todds DVDs come out to a total of 13 hrs. The Tour CDs I have are over 20 hrs.
You can see a list of whats covered HERE (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/worldwidetour.htm) and HERE (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/nextdimensiontour.htm) . Both CDs are $120.00 for more then 20 hours.
This is the same material that was presented at the Newtek Sponsored World Wide Tour Seminars and Next Dimension Tour Seminars.
I have some of the lectures that cover the head modeling HERE (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/sampler.htm) . The CDs have recieved lots of great reviews and theyre a very good bargain.
You can see some of the shows Ive worked on HERE (http://www.splinegod.com/modeling_and_animations.htm)
Another nice thing is that you have access to our support forum whenever you buy any CDs or courses. :)

Larry,

His question was about Todd's DVD's, not your courseware. I am finding increasingly irritating to see threads hijacked by you so you may sell some product.

Can People please just ask for some advice without having you pimp your CD's?

Christ man. Give it a REST.

jmcalpin

07 July 2003, 09:45 PM

Larry,

Do you have any more tour cds coming out? I thought you do one each siggraph?(don't remember which con/event it is actually) and put it out at some point?

Jason

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by angus1965
Larry,

His question was about Todd's DVD's, not your courseware. I am finding increasingly irritating to see threads hijacked by you so you may sell some product.

Can People please just ask for some advice without having you pimp your CD's?

Christ man. Give it a REST.
Randy,
It amazes me that you come on with 12 posts and feel you get to elect yourself thread advocate. Ive been very active on these forums for a long time, in fact long before I started producing any content. I post far more helpful things to help others then I do about my courses.
Nothing I said has prevented anyone from posting a direct response to his question as in fact several people have done so.
I dont see any response from milqman indicating he was peeved because I offered an alternative.
I find it irritating that you feel that:
1. You feel that you can speak for milqman
2. That you feel that you can elect yourself thread cop
3. That you are now going to start harassing myself, Dan Alblan, Wordware, Timothy Albee, Nick Boughen, Todd Grimes, Dave Jerrard and Jennifer Hachigian or anyone who mentions they have a product. Keep that in mind when you ever contribute something to a book or product that you wish to sell.
You may want to read THIS (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68180) thread.
I dont see how you feel this post of yours is any less "hijacking' or irrelevant then mine is. You also have the freedom to do like most people seem to be able to do fine; ignore threads they dont like. You have an issue? PM me.

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by jmcalpin
Larry,

Do you have any more tour cds coming out? I thought you do one each siggraph?(don't remember which con/event it is actually) and put it out at some point?

Jason
The last Tour CD was the Next Dimension Tour CD and Im working on the next one; The World Wide Community Tour CD.
That will be available towards the end of the tour cycle.

ghopper

07 July 2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by angus1965
Larry,

His question was about Todd's DVD's, not your courseware. I am finding increasingly irritating to see threads hijacked by you so you may sell some product.

Can People please just ask for some advice without having you pimp your CD's?

I doubt it since at the time of this posting he has 248 posts himself. It would be hard to find enough threads that Larry hasn't turned into an infomercial to get that many posts. Usually when someone posts a lot in one thread it has turned into a fight and been closed.

I would love to see less ads in the threads. Larry HAS hijacked plenty of threads that others are tyying to help with. I've read posts where someone was working on something and he has dropped his spam bombs in there.

angus1965

07 July 2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by SplineGod
Randy,
It amazes me that you come on with 12 posts and feel you get to elect yourself thread advocate. Ive been very active on these forums for a long time, in fact long before I started producing any content. I post far more helpful things to help others then I do about my courses.
Nothing I said has prevented anyone from posting a direct response to his question as in fact several people have done so.
I dont see any response from milqman indicating he was peeved because I offered an alternative.
I find it irritating that you feel that:
1. You feel that you can speak for milqman
2. That you feel that you can elect yourself thread cop
3. That you are now going to start harassing myself, Dan Alblan, Wordware, Timothy Albee, Nick Boughen, Todd Grimes, Dave Jerrard and Jennifer Hachigian or anyone who mentions they have a product. Keep that in mind when you ever contribute something to a book or product that you wish to sell.
You may want to read THIS (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68180) thread.
I dont see how you feel this post of yours is any less "hijacking' or irrelevant then mine is. You also have the freedom to do like most people seem to be able to do fine; ignore threads they dont like. You have an issue? PM me.

1. I was speaking for me.
2. I am not electing myself thread cop. I am telling you that I find it irritating that when someone asks for advice about someone's product that you do not even post a response regarding the product. Instead you place an advertisement about yours. Please explain to me how that is on topic.
3. I am not going to start harassing anyone. I stated an opinion. Have I ever said you were not allowed to advertise your product? There are 12 posts, it should be quite easy to find, however I will answer it for you. The answer is ďNo.Ē However I take issue with the fact that someone asks a legit question and you post something so that you may sell a few cd's. Don't give me this moral highground stuff about giving an alternative choice.

By the way Larry, you forgot to mention MY name in that list of people involved in Lightwave training material. As you know I was a Lightwave instructor as well. I have contributed to Dan's book (Inside LW 7) and am working with him on another one. I am balancing a fulltime job, a family, and writing a book. I guess that may be why I only have 12 posts.

I read CGTalk.com every day. I don't post every day because I am working and may not have the time. However today I made the time.

Do you actually feel that your post was an adaquest response to him about Todd's DVD's?

Kaiser_Sose

07 July 2003, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by angus1965

2. I am telling you that I find it irritating that when someone asks for advice about someone's product that you do not even post a response regarding the product. Instead you place an advertisement about yours. Please explain to me how that is on topic.

Good one ...

Reminds me of a two dollar hookers pimp in Tijuana ... You will always find the one dollar hookers pimp, PIMPING his stash

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 10:57 PM

Again Randy,
Its ironic that you dont feel that your feelings of irritation dont extend to worrying if other people could care less if you were irritated or not.
Are you irritated with Dan, Wordware, or any of the others who mention products? Are you going to get on your soapbox and publically let them know how much it bothers you? I seriously doubt it since you obviously have a vested interest in someone hawking their products that you receive money from. I take it when your book is released that youre never going to mention it on here and that you will express great irritation at anyone who does try and sell it here.
I also dont see that turning the thread into Todd Grimes DVD set vs why Randy can only post 12 times is more relevant. If youre going to post why not post something actually useful and use the PM system here the way lildragon indicated.
lwbob is welcome to do the same.

Shade01

07 July 2003, 11:02 PM

Here we go... Let's just go ahead and close this thread now, I don't see this getting any better.

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 11:07 PM

I agree, Sorry folks.

ghopper

07 July 2003, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by lwbob
I doubt it since at the time of this posting he has 248 posts himself. It would be hard to find enough threads that Larry hasn't turned into an infomercial to get that many posts. Usually when someone posts a lot in one thread it has turned into a fight and been closed.

Ok, might be true - but for a definitive answer I think milqman has to answer that himself.

Anyway, to make this thread 'informative' again, maybe more people can state their opinion which one is the better course to start with. Larry's CDs or Todd Grimes' DVDs ? Pros & cons of both courses ?

RE: spamming

I visit this forum on a daily basis, and don't feel 'spammed' by Larry's posts. Ok, he does 'advertise' for his courses etc, but most of the time I see him answering questions, which add a lot of value to this forum I think.

Mechis

07 July 2003, 11:17 PM

I want to speak up for Larry here- I have bought the Todd Grimes DVD set and I think they are very good. They show Todd Grimes modelling, setting up and animating every step of the way. It's really great watching a professional work. As I have been working through them though, I am realizing that Todd doesn't explain his process as much as he could- he simply does things. I actually posted recently about a model I was making based on Todd's tutorial because I was having problems getting spin-quads to work for me. I asked Larry to take a look and he showed me a few things that I could do to improve on my model. He did and he also showed me a few of his sample movies. These videos cleared up my issues immensely and also gave me a few tricks that Todd didn't address. I wish I could have seen this before I bought Todd Grimes' DVD set. If I had, I think I would have bought Larry's CDs. As it is, I will be purchasing his modelling CD at the end of the summer. I do not think it was wrong of Larry to mention his videos- he simply wanted to make sure milqman knew about them.

As a plea to everyone in the Lightwave community- PLEASE, if you feel the urge to post something "confrontational" or "argumentative" please try to keep it off the message boards- you can pm or e-mail the individual personally. These kind of arguments are why people leave the boards- Tito even posted about this kind of behavior.

angus1965

07 July 2003, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by SplineGod

<snip>
Are you irritated with Dan, Wordware, or any of the others who mention products?

No, I am not.

Just to clarrify, as I stated earlier, I am not irritated by you selling your cd's. It is the manner in which it was/is handled. You do not see my point as I have stated it before.

Example:

I make a post asking for advice on which dvd to buy.

You reply but do not mention the original set, for which I was asking about, but the advertise your set.

It looks like the original poster is going to buy your cd's too. I guess the tactic worked eh?

Oh. And just for the record, I have absolutely no intention of posting anything about my book when it comes out. I will let it stand on it's own merit.

I am up to 14 posts now. Does that mean my opinion counts now?

Ayreon

07 July 2003, 11:28 PM

Not to bash Larry, I really appreciate all his tips and tricks he share's on these boards, but I have to agree that I to sometimes get annoyed with his advertising. Put them in the Lightwave tutorials or resources section, so everybody can read about them, but don't come in to a post about Todd Grimes DVD's selling your own product. I was interested in the DVD's, and I new about the CD's from Larry, but now this thread is about the CD's for 90%, not about the DVD's I wanted to read about.
Sorry Larry, no hard feelings, just my opinion.

Ayreon

ghopper

07 July 2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by angus1965
I am up to 14 posts now. Does that mean my opinion counts now?

Hey, I've got 33 posts now, so I'm more important than you are ;)

But seriously, why not just get rid of showing the number of posted posts. It's not really important to show this number, is it ?

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Ayreon
Not to bash Larry, I really appreciate all his tips and tricks he share's on these boards, but I have to agree that I to sometimes get annoyed with his advertising. Put them in the Lightwave tutorials or resources section, so everybody can read about them, but don't come in to a post about Todd Grimes DVD's selling your own product. I was interested in the DVD's, and I new about the CD's from Larry, but now this thread is about the CD's for 90%, not about the DVD's I wanted to read about.
Sorry Larry, no hard feelings, just my opinion.

Ayreon
Thanks! No hard feelings. You are able to make your point without the excess baggage. :)

robinson

07 July 2003, 11:52 PM

Damn guys, the flame war begins again ?

It is always good to see an alternative to these expensive training material !
I was pretty disappointed by the DVDís, looked to me like a step by step tutorial, I donít think you really learn to much this way, so I would recommend this book, and in the US you can get it for just $ 38.50. :beer:

BTW I don't know Larry's stuff, but the price looks right ! :thumbsup:

AndyD

07 July 2003, 11:56 PM

I have a new DVD coming out soon , its called "Which LW Training DVD Is Right For Me" :) .

But seriously, I`m more of a lurker in this forum than anything else - hence my post count. I have to vouch for Larry here as well, I purchased his intro to LW courseware and it was worth every penny (BTW Larry, when do I get the last CD on animation?).
He explains everything in great detail and shows you the many ways of how the same task can be performed with different tools and techniques.

Steve Warner is my other tutorial hero, he has a very clear and practical way of explaining LW tools and techniques on his website.

Many thanks to Larry and Steve for your contributions to my LW education.

Andy

Kaiser_Sose

07 July 2003, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Mechis
I want to speak up for Larry here- I have bought the Todd Grimes DVD set and I think they are very good. They show Todd Grimes modelling, setting up and animating every step of the way. It's really great watching a professional work. As I have been working through them though, I am realizing that Todd doesn't explain his process as much as he could- he simply does things. I actually posted recently about a model I was making based on Todd's tutorial because I was having problems getting spin-quads to work for me. I asked Larry to take a look and he showed me a few things that I could do to improve on my model. He did and he also showed me a few of his sample movies. These videos cleared up my issues immensely and also gave me a few tricks that Todd didn't address. I wish I could have seen this before I bought Todd Grimes' DVD set. If I had, I think I would have bought Larry's CDs. As it is, I will be purchasing his modelling CD at the end of the summer. I do not think it was wrong of Larry to mention his videos- he simply wanted to make sure milqman knew about them.

As a plea to everyone in the Lightwave community- PLEASE, if you feel the urge to post something "confrontational" or "argumentative" please try to keep it off the message boards- you can pm or e-mail the individual personally. These kind of arguments are why people leave the boards- Tito even posted about this kind of behavior.

Hey, no one is denieing Larry has helped most of us with tips and tricks and those that have he has helped should thank him but that is no excuse to constantly pimp his training material wherever he sees fit, especially when the on topic question has nothig to do with him, his material or anything else he pushes.

He makes it crystal clear in his signature that he has training material as well as in a sticky

lildragon

07 July 2003, 12:08 AM

Easy gents easy. Please read the sticky up top.

-lild

dead_eye

07 July 2003, 12:12 AM

Oh, BTW Milqman, after watching the Todd's Head Modeling DVD, I still feel I need to buy something more to learn how to draw heads because that Batman-like superhero character with too many exaggerated bodyparts just doesn't bode well if you want to do photorealistic humans (for example Grimes doesn't give his character tear ducts and is relatively low poly compared to other head models i've seen here on CGTalk). But I liked the body DVD because of all the modeler tips... starting with the chest and shoulders, smooth shifting out the upper arms, fixing the musculature flow of the model with spin quads. Watching those DVDs is more like taking an art class though than a taking a class on lightwave.

Originally posted by milqman
Which of the DVDs had the most... info? Which one was the most helpful?

I want to buy them all but for now can only afford one.

I am looking at getting the first one (head modelling) as I am having great difficulty modelling a head.

I will make an on-topic post now.

I know you are looking for Head Modeling so my information will not pertain to that. However, I will state that I absolutely love Todd's "Evil Character Setup" that he used to have on his website. I assume, understandably, that he had to take it down when he started selling his DVD's. I have not had the opportunity to see his DVD set yet, however, if his examples of how to rig are there there I would certainly recommend that volume.

So - when you get to the point of character rigging I would certainly talk to people about the DVD. If it is like his website then I would get it.

Just my opinon though.

milqman

07 July 2003, 12:48 AM

I'm slightly disturbed at the direction this thread took for about 2 pages...

Nevertheless, I do appreciate Splinegod's posts, I was not aware that he had the two cheaper "World Wide Tour" and "Next Dimension" tour CDs for much less than that $800 course that I will never be able to afford.

In the end scheme of things I want to learn everything about Lightwave, but for now I'd really like to learn character modelling because thats the main reason I started 3d (to make characters.)

webfox

07 July 2003, 12:58 AM

Do you have Albran's "Inside Lightwave 6 -or- 7" book with the head and body modeling tutorials?

It's not video, but they're very, very good.

Also, study traditional art courses with figure drawing. You can learn the software and still not understand the world around you.

milqman

07 July 2003, 01:04 AM

I have Dan Ablan's Inside LW 7 book but that book is difficult for me to read and follow. I find video is much easier to learn from for me anyway.

I don't have a great interest in modelling realistic stuff, I enjoy much more modelling and animating cartoonish characters.

angus1965

07 July 2003, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by milqman
I have Dan Ablan's Inside LW 7 book but that book is difficult for me to read and follow. I find video is much easier to learn from for me anyway.

I don't have a great interest in modelling realistic stuff, I enjoy much more modelling and animating cartoonish characters.

However you choose to learn and work remember one thing:

Be an artist first and a Lightwave user second.

rock

07 July 2003, 01:43 AM

That Digital Human book that I talked about earlier is for realistic model. I didn't know you wanted the more cartoonish look. But I think that once you understand the concepts (the eyes, hair, muscles, biceps, triceps, back, shoulders, shoulder blades, six-packs abdomen, hands, feet, eyelashes, eyebrows, hair, textures, clothes, shirt, pants that are all shown in the book), you will able to create your own cartoonish without worrying about the polygon steps that you blindly follow, say, like the head tutorial in Inside LW 7.

The head tutorial Inside LW 7 result looks more gorgeous because it models a pretty good-looking woman. But the steps force you to just blindly follow tediously and painfully without knowing why you should extend this polygon or that number of polygons, in this or that direction.

The finished model in Digital Human is not so good-looking man. But the modeling method is clearer and superior. It shapes the model with 1 one box and about 10 extrusion and you have a pretty much the whole character proportion. Then you start to cut and cut, shaping muscles, eyes, face, shoulders, stomach muscles (e.g six packs), triceps, biceps, forarms, hands, palms, fingers, shoulder blades, thigh muscles, knees, feet. Then hair, textures and clothes. It teaches you to be on your own later. That is, when you see a chest muscle, you generally know you have to cut and shape in that area. The eye and eyelashes method in Digital Human book are the exact same methods that are also used in Inside LW 7. The book then shows how to convert a man model into a female model by reducing muscles, thinning and reshaping the model and adding breasts.

Now for a cartoonish character, you should try the bonus tutorials of Jennifer Hachigan's Kara character. It uses Spline modeling method and Cel shading.

I did the tutorials in Inside LW 7, Kara character and the Digital Human books. Of the 3, I expended the most amount of effort, energy and time doing the Inside LW 7 head. But my final textured result is tremendously gorgeous. I used LW for the first 2, but I used Maya for the Digital Human book. My final result in all 3 tutorials look gorgeous. I just can't call them my own. But most of the stuff that I remember is from the Digital Human book, because it didn't force me to follow blindly and because it explains (implicitly and explicitly) why a cut should be made here and there. Now I can start to do my character with my own look and feel.

Part of learning 3D is also intelligence - intelligence to learn with buying less and understanding more and not be charged too much by these guys who are selling them to survive. But you have to survive too.

Miyazaki

07 July 2003, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by carnera
milqman:

here at mba-studios we are actually working on our first lw-training dvd. its gonna be a modeling tutorial dvd.
topic highlights are :
-organic modeling (incl. head modeling )
-none-organic modeling (like weapon, cloth)
-relization of hair using saslight.

we will ship the dvd within the next weeks (but before sigg)

initially we planed to release the dvd mid june, but right now we are working on the cinematics for the game "sacred" (btw...some parts of the cinematics will be shown at sig )...so i need a 48 hour day... ;)
Hi Andras, sounds interesting. Definitely on my list :applause: . The DVD`s are in german, right?

@Larry
Is there any chance that we`ll see your training material on DVD in the near future? Would be fine for me. . Look and work simultaneously(TV and monitor).

About Todd`s DVDs. I´ve only read positive reviews.

milqman

07 July 2003, 01:55 AM

splinegod, clean your PM box :)

can't send you a PM cause it says your inbox is too full

MadMax

07 July 2003, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by ghopper
Maybe milqman never heard of Larry's courseware before, and that's why Larry replied to his post ?

If Milqman has been here for 6 months and has even looked at any of the threads in the Lightwave forum he is more than well aware that Larry has CD's for sale.

I'd be surprised if there was a single user here who doesn't know by now.

MadMax

07 July 2003, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by ghopper
Anyway, to make this thread 'informative' again, maybe more people can state their opinion which one is the better course to start with. Larry's CDs or Todd Grimes' DVDs ? Pros & cons of both courses ?

Having seen all of the material being discussed myself, I thought the Grimes info was good, if not a little simplistic.

AS a frequent visitor of Newtek events nationwide, I am well familiar with Larry's stuff.

Of all of them, I would have to say that Dan Ablan's CD Series is without a doubt the best money can buy.

Tons of info on a variety oof subjects, and very professionally done. If you can't master Lightwave and work like a pro after following Dan's stuff then there is an application waiting for you at In and Out Burgers.

Triple G

07 July 2003, 03:07 AM

I couldn't afford Todd's entire set, so I bought the two which I thought I could benefit from and interested me the most: Model Rigging, and Body Animation. Both were good and pretty informative, but I'm not so sure that they were worth the $120 I paid for them. (I preordered, so I got $10 off the normal price for each.)

Todd's techniques are sound, and I picked up more than a few tips and tricks from each. But I have to say that I was a little disappointed...the rigging DVD didn't get into expressions at all, and I was hoping to be treated to some killer Motion Designer tips for the cape...but the entire thing was animated with plain FK with lots of bones. Sure, it's an effective method which offers a good amount of control to the animator, but for $60, I was expecting something with a little more "wow" factor. :shrug:

I really enjoyed the Body Animation one...it was more about techniques for streamlining your workflow and how to animate quickly and efficiently. It'd probably be helpful to non-Lightwave users as well.

All that being said, I don't regret buying Todd's DVDs....I learned enough from them to not feel like I got ripped off. However, I do feel that there are better alternatives out there, which offer more bang for your buck, info-wise. As far as rigging and animation, I learned the most from Timothy Albee's character animation book...and it was less than the price of 1 of Todd's DVDs.

You mention that you're most interested in modeling...I haven't had the chance to see any of Todd's modeling DVDs, but I'm sure you'll be able to get some good tips and tricks from them. Like I said, from what I've seen, there's some good material and Todd's definitely a talented guy. I'm just not so sure that the current price of $70 apiece or $300+ for the set is really a bargain. The fact of the matter is that you can fit so much more info into a book, and most of the time the book is going to be cheaper than a DVD. It just depends on which you prefer, and if you feel it's worth it to pay a premium for video instead of the written word.

Insider

07 July 2003, 03:16 AM

All learning resources are a bonus. All of them. 99% of the LightWave info out there is good stuff. I've never said anything bad about anyone's work - but there's one book that you shouldn't buy.

In any case, I don't try to learn from just one single source. Watching and reading whatever you can is great for you. Why? Because you see how other people work, even if it's something you already know - you may pick up a tip or trick. Additionally, you can also see what not to do from certain products as well.

Even go down to the bookstore and check out the vast array of computer magazines - the Computer Arts, and 3D World mags often have a lot of info on other programs as well as LightWave. Take a look at tutorials from other software programs too - it's all good.

Here's a tip: the smartest people are those who know what they don't know.

Regards,
Dan Ablan
AGA Digital Studios, Inc.
www.3dgarage.com

Triple G

07 July 2003, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by Insider
but there's one book that you shouldn't buy.

:surprised Care to tell us which one, so we'll know not to waste our money on it? ;)

Insider

07 July 2003, 03:34 AM

well,
it has to do with modeling, at least in the title....

Dan

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by milqman
splinegod, clean your PM box :)

can't send you a PM cause it says your inbox is too full
As far as I can tell its empty...wierd! :)

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 03:44 AM

Originally posted by MadMax
If Milqman has been here for 6 months and has even looked at any of the threads in the Lightwave forum he is more than well aware that Larry has CD's for sale.

I'd be surprised if there was a single user here who doesn't know by now.
I think its easy to conceive that Milqman didnt know about my CDs since you were on this thread and totally missed where he said " I was not aware that he had the two cheaper "World Wide Tour" and "Next Dimension" tour CDs". Its easy to assume things sometimes. :)

MadMax

07 July 2003, 03:53 AM

Originally posted by SplineGod
I think its easy to conceive that Milqman didnt know about my CDs since you were on this thread and totally missed where he said " I was not aware that he had the two cheaper "World Wide Tour" and "Next Dimension" tour CDs". Its easy to assume things sometimes. :)

I didn't miss it.

Look at your own quote though:

"Not aware that he had two CHEAPER cd's."

Clearly he was as aware as any that you have stuff to sell.

No other inference is to be made from that.

minus

07 July 2003, 04:32 AM

-=Rock=-
Thanks for the info on that book! --- It sounds great! So you say that it's using the box-modeling method mostly? Can you post a pic or PM a link to what your end-output was? -- I know it's not the final product that matters... it's what you learned in the process and all that.

I've also done the character stuff on Spline-gods World Wide Tour CD. I can say that untill I find something better.... that is how I do my bodies, though I do my hands the Kara method, and my heads.... well I just make stuff up there.. (need improvement).
The World Wide Tour CD I wouldn't say is realistic... Proportions might be there... but there isn't much detail. And when it comes to the head... well it's really just a ball that sits at the top for the most part... (if I remember right). I'll say it again though...when Larry teaches Box-Modeling .... I usually dig it... and apply the same techniques. Best CD i've ever bought for the money.

milqman

07 July 2003, 04:34 AM

how do i find this "kara" method?

nessjp

07 July 2003, 04:39 AM

Larry,
Thanks for theDimension Tour CD! I finally got it last week.
I like it a lot and it covers a lot of stuff. Sort of disappointed that the head modeling portion is the exact same as in your class which I paid quite a bit for, but oh-well.

Your Character class is excellent and the cd's are as well. Are you tired of me praisinfg them all of the time yet?

I have not needed to use any of the support yet that goes along with it yet, as I keep doing my own things. I do however view the class cd's all of the time. It is great how you can use the index and go right to a certain chapter and see how you accomplished it. Wanna see head modeling, watch the vid. How do you texture it? Watch the vid.

I am sure that as I am slowly going through the course of actually building your character I will be able to get your advice as I am way beyond the 3 months support. But, even if I do not do the actual course per se', the disks are still an awesome reference.

fender

07 July 2003, 04:41 AM

yep,
Snort is by far the coolest! Not that you were taking a pole on who's is the coolest of the 4.;)

fender

07 July 2003, 04:54 AM

[Be an artist first and a Lightwave user second.]

Amen.

milqman

07 July 2003, 04:59 AM

how long is an individule module of your courseware, SplineGod? (hour-wise)

such as. just the modelling module

rock

07 July 2003, 05:02 AM

Milqman,

The Kara character is also very gorgeous. It has the feel of a Japanese comic character. You have to buy the Lightwave 6.5/7.5 Applied book and in it, there's the site to the free, high-detailed step by step, which I don't think you can miss (even for a beginner). You can see the Kara in the gallery link below:

http://www.celshader.com/gallery/kara

If you notice what I was trying to describe is the different modeling method that I have been learning:

1. Extending polygon method is used in Inside LW 7 head. You entend and shape polygons against a gorgeous female background picture. You keep extending and shaping until you finished.

2. Kara model used spline modeling method. You use points to form lines, which forms spline cage. Then, you begin to patch using quads to create form. Then you celshade the 3d model into cartoon look.

3. Digital Human book used box modeling. You start from a box, do about 10 extrusions (against a background picture or not) to create a rough figure from head to toes, fingers to fingers. Then you start to cut wherever there's a valley or hill bump in the model. The eye is a valley; the triceps or biceps are hills with valleys. It is in these hills or valleys that you do cut and cut and cut. Then shape and shape. You can use a photograph from a model magazine to see where these valleys and hills are so you can shape them correctly. Then with some of these horizontal and vertical cuts, you have triangles, which you then must turn them into quads so it render more predictable. Or spin those quads to create flow. The tools used for the entire character are few: cut and knife (no bandsaw), move or drag, subdivide and smooth shift. That's why I can use Maya. You don't need a lot of tools to create complex characters. Although slightly clumpsy in certain areas, Maya is just a capable modeler as Lightwave and exceeds the LW modeler in some areas.

I think that it's best if you attempt, when possible, all different techniques of modeling.

nessjp

07 July 2003, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by milqman
how long is an individule module of your courseware, SplineGod? (hour-wise)

such as. just the modelling module

Not to speak for Larry, but as a student in his course, just the modeling is hour after glorious hour.
Not sure of the exact length, but I think that just the modeling is something like 12+ hours. The texturing is something like 20 hours.

The modeling portion by the way covers both a box method type version and Spline usage.

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by milqman
how long is an individule module of your courseware, SplineGod? (hour-wise)

such as. just the modelling module
Just the modeling portion of the course is at least 12 hours. Its a little misleading because I tend to post additional movies onto the forums to clarify certain things or just to have some additional material. So say at least 12 hours . On top of that theres a ton of critiques, Q&A on various topics and so forth going back for months. Since the course is self paced you have support for as long as you need. You definately wouldnt be disappointed.
Minus, Ness...Thanks!
I do show two very different approaches to modeling heads and torsos in the full course. The World Wide Tour Seminar was not specifically a character seminar but covered a lot of ground. Graham Toms and Lee Stranahan presented at most of that tour and I was asked to commit the material to CD and I tried to keep the material as true to the presenters intent as much as I could and add additional material that I felt would clarify some parts.
The head modeling portion of the Next Dimension Tour again focussed on what I feel is the easiest method for newbies to learn. In that regard it does parallel a small portion of the character modeling CD so there is a tiny bit of overlap. I think overall much of the material covered on both CDs are things that arent covered elsewhere. Thanks for the comments guys! :)

Kaiser_Sose

07 July 2003, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by rock
Then with some of these horizontal and vertical cuts, you have triangles, which you then must turn them into quads so it render more predictable. Or spin those quads to create flow. The tools used for the entire character are few: cut and knife (no bandsaw), move or drag, subdivide and smooth shift. That's why I can use Maya. You don't need a lot of tools to create complex characters. Although slightly clumpsy in certain areas, Maya is just a capable modeler as Lightwave and exceeds the LW modeler in some areas.

How do you spin quads and take care of triangles in maya

E_Moelzer

07 July 2003, 09:45 PM

I can really recommend Larrys courses. They are excellent!
Andras stuff is great too (and there will be an english version of it of course).
Oh and I think it is pretty ok of both of them to mention their DVDs/CDs. If they hadnt, I would have done it...
CU
Elmar

rock

07 July 2003, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by Kaiser_Sose
How do you spin quads and take care of triangles in maya

Kaiser_Sose,

I think that's two questions that you are asking. First, I don't think there's a spin quad button in Maya, but because Maya also supports edge mode, you simply delete the edge that lies between the two quads. Then simply make a new cut dividing the 2 quads where you want the new flow to be. That's basically spinning quad. The one thing with LW is that it has cool names SpinQuad, SmoothShift, SuperQuadratic, BandSaw. Because LW doesn't have edge mode, it has to compensate by plugins or scripts that do the same thing differently, like spinquad. Maya operates at a more implicit or primitive levels in those tools.

Second, turning triangles to quad in Maya is the same as in Lightwave. There's a tutorial at Newtek site that shows how to do this in LW. In Maya, you can use the drawSplit tool (press shift to cut in a straight line) to turn the tri into quad by applying the concept learned in LW or any other packages.

I agree with SplineGod, but LW is also slower in other ways. ;) Let's forget flame wars. What I am starting to realize that once you understand the core concept underneath, you can move between packages very quick.

dead_eye

07 July 2003, 03:56 AM

you guys are an absolute trip :p
BTW, what was that little tip to change the direction of the triangle when I Triple a quad? The split never seems to go in the right direction I want it to.

chikega

07 July 2003, 02:28 PM

I'm new to these forums and I thought I might throw in my two cents worth.

I'm a solo artist and depend heavily on efforts of more experienced professionals. I have purchased almost every book on 3d whether it has to do with Max, Cinema4d, LW and like Dan said - there all good. I will probably never work in a studio where people have the opportunity to learn from each other in a production environment. I really appreciate it whenever new training material presents itself.

Dan, I'm looking forward to your Advanced Courseware series. Is it on course for Siggraph? I have all your books and videos from Class on Demand. You're a great teacher - very clear and logically laid out. And I think I know exactly which book you suggest not buying. Does the authors first name rhyme with Scam? Hideous book.

I have Todd Grimes DVD's - haven't finished them except the first - it's essentially the box modeling method - Nonetheless, Timothy has a very innate sense for proportions and esthestics and it's fun to watch him massage those points around.

I appreciate the "plug" by Carnera - I would have never known about this other than by his mentioning it. It looks really great. Carnera, is it going to be in English or French at least? I'll will indeed purchase it when it comes out.

I also appreciate the "plugs" that CgTalk is built around. The "plugs" for the "Expose" book, "The Gnomon Workshop", "DFX+LW", t-shirts, coffee mugs, etc... yes even CgTalk needs some form of sponsorship, advertising and marketing dollars to survive.

I've been taking Larry's Courses and it really is, as one other person said, like having a "Guru in your Pocket". Hey, that could be your next call sign, Larry, "Pocket Guru" ;-)

I finished my first head model under Larry's tutelage and I've enjoyed it tremendously. And yes I heard about it through these forums.

http://www.3ddmd.com/Devilish.htm

My four cents worth now,

carnera

07 July 2003, 05:28 PM

chikega:

the dvd is going to be in english and german. first we planned to serve the french market as well ...but due to time and storage problems we cant make it. ;( maybe next time ;)

i hope that we can upload the homepage update (with the shop and opportunity to pre order the dvd) by the end of next week.

i will keep you update...

Insider

07 July 2003, 05:41 PM

Chickega,
thanks for the comments.

Nice looking Devil!

Advanced Courseware is still on track for end of July. I won't be at SIGGRAPH, but have a good time!

Dan Ablan
AGA Digital Studios, Inc.
www.3dgarage.com

milqman

07 July 2003, 05:41 PM

what is on this DVD? what does it cover and how long is it?

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 05:46 PM

Elmar, Gary...
I appreciate the comments. :)

Insider

07 July 2003, 05:49 PM

It's not a DVD. It's a CD-ROM set that will cover topcs from IK, Bones, HyperVoxels, UV Mapping, Cloth, and more. Length will be a significant number of hours Can't post until it's complete.

Thanks,

Dan Ablan
AGA Digital Studios, Inc.
www.3dgarage.com

milqman

07 July 2003, 05:52 PM

sorry, i meant carnera :)

carnera

07 July 2003, 10:02 PM

milqman:
it has a approx. playtime of 180 minutes.
i will show modeling a complete character (head, gloves, cloth...) in lightwave- including realization the hair using saslight.

the dvd has 2 screen-modes (one for tv and one for pc). we developed our own capturetool and codec. ;)

we will update (more images...teasers...product info) the official webside http://www.carnera3d-seminars.de during the next week.

stay tuned... ;)))

FrankAalbers

07 July 2003, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
I'd be surprised if there was a single user here who doesn't know by now.

My name is Chalbers ... I now notting ...

milqman

07 July 2003, 12:38 AM

heh...what?

SplineGod

07 July 2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by milqman
heh...what?
Exactly! :)

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