Martin out as coach, stays as GM

Well, since you answered your own question, I'll just toss out - he acquired Murray also (Martin can't be expected to foresee the guy separating his shoulder 7 games in, and the acquisition was a gamble that Murray could both fight and play instead of being a pure enforcer), Johanssen, and Wade Belak. He also signed Murphy, which certainly looked like a brilliant move before Muph's mystery injury sidelined him two months and killed off his offensive game. Who knows, he could even return to form after a summer off. Zednik was an offensive gamble, but he was scoring like a demon in January before his freak injury. Dvorak and McLean seemed less impressive signings, but Dvo's a key PKer for the team and McLean has performed well, though at season's end was in too big a role as a top line wing. But he did manage - was it 4 or 5 points in that one game in March?

Last year Martin was somewhat less active, but remember he had Bertuzzi's huge contract sitting on IR, so the moves he made to subract that and bring in Matthias as a prospect were an attempt to improve the team. Matthias really didn't take off until after the trade, so the Wings didn't think they were giving up much...then Martin also dealt draft picks for Vokoun, a blatant move to improve the current product on the ice.

Martin improved the overall balance of this team. And whether its an excuse or not, we would be a playoff team if it wasnt for the injuries. And if you dont think we could of made up nine points if Olesz, Weiss, Booth, Zednik, McLean, heck, even Stumpel, werent out for extended periods of time, then you are just fooling yourselves. What would you have rather seen Martin done, go out and overpay for guys like Briere or Gomez? Then we would be stuck with a team nine points out of the playoffs. Why, because we would have Gomez or Briere, along with Glass, Larman, Lojak, Meyer, etc., on the bottom lines instead of McLean, Dvo, Zednik, etc. The team would look exactly like we did when all the injuries occured, but without the injuries. And god REALLY help us if we lead the league in man games lost with that lineup.

Martin improved the overall balance of this team. And whether its an excuse or not, we would be a playoff team if it wasnt for the injuries. And if you dont think we could of made up nine points if Olesz, Weiss, Booth, Zednik, McLean, heck, even Stumpel, werent out for extended periods of time, then you are just fooling yourselves. What would you have rather seen Martin done, go out and overpay for guys like Briere or Gomez? Then we would be stuck with a team nine points out of the playoffs. Why, because we would have Gomez or Briere, along with Glass, Larman, Lojak, Meyer, etc., on the bottom lines instead of McLean, Dvo, Zednik, etc. The team would look exactly like we did when all the injuries occured, but without the injuries. And god REALLY help us if we lead the league in man games lost with that lineup.

This injury excuse is ridiculous. I've already put it into context but you seem to ignore it.

Gomez on this team and we make the playoffs, guaranteed. Horton and Jokinen would have scored 40+ goals. Briere on this team we also make the playoffs.

You are delusional if you think rooster fillers are more important than STAR players. We would still have depth as third and fourth line players are easily replaced. You talk about this lack of depth but the fact is we had Cullimore and Johansson who both played great. Cullimore was the second best D-man. Zednik was contributing nothing for most of the time in the lineup. He started to get hot before his injury but he is a streaky player and its reasonable to assume he wasn't going to keep up the production. Stumpel sucked before his injury and many here hate on him yet you claim if we had him in the lineup we win? If he is in the lineup then I doubt we get the most out of mclean as he was our leading scorer from the all star break.

How many games did Lojek play? Larman? Meyer? I can't believe you would blame this teams inability to make the playoffs on them. ROFL. Sounds like the scapegoat. Its just a convenient way
to explain this teams shortcomings. When we had our full lineup and we lost games against tampa and atlanta at the end of the season what is your excuse for that? Two horrible teams, eliminated from the playoffs.????

This injury excuse is ridiculous. I've already put it into context but you seem to ignore it.

You are delusional if you think rooster fillers are more important than STAR players.

How many games did Lojek play? Larman? Meyer? I can't believe you would blame this teams inability to make the playoffs on them. ROFL. Sounds like the scapegoat. Its just a convenient way
to explain this teams shortcomings. When we had our full lineup and we lost games against tampa and atlanta at the end of the season what is your excuse for that? Two horrible teams, eliminated from the playoffs.????

They (including Stewart and David Brine as well as others I mentioned) played a combined 56 games. That number goes to 97 if you include Glass, as I do because I don't think he's a complete player who belongs (at this point) on a credible playoff team.

And your context isn't ignored - it's dismissed as inaccurate. That would be why there's a disagreement and discussion stemming from this. If we didn't disagree with it, there would be no conversation.

As for your "delusional" argument - besides your using a rather weak debate technique to try and prevent anyone from disagreeing with you by painting any potential contrary opinions as inherently flawed for disagreeing - I don't think anyone made the argument that roster fillers are more important than stars. Just that the addition of one or two of the biggest name free agent players wouldn't have saved this team as it would have required far too much scrimping on the rest of the team. The example of what you're offering is Tampa Bay. Big names on the top lines are nice, but not when they're so expensive you're paying league minimum to the bottom two lines, as that's the caliber of player you'll get. The stars mentioned both received ridiculously overbid salaries. The Panthers' would have looked much different this season, and likely still missed the playoffs had they been brought in.

Should Martin choose to stay, it's uncertain how the hiring of his replacement would be handled. Cohen said briefly Friday that Martin would help decide his successor.

However, it's likely Martin would select someone similar to his own personality and coaching style, something which fans and Cohen alike don't feel has worked the previous three seasons. Several players in the Panthers' dressing room were also displeased with how Martin related to them as coach.

If Martin is urged to select someone he doesn't feel he would mesh well with, he might choose to leave the organization altogether.

It says he might have a hand in choosing the next coach, not that he will. And that he might leave altogether if he doesnt mesh well with the new coach. I think you guys are really undervaluing a guy with his experience because of what he has done on the ice. He has been a decent GM for this team and Id be happy if he stays as GM. You guys like to pick parts out of the article instead of look at everything as a whole.

see, that's just it - i think he's done a decent job on the ice. sure the team hasn't made the playoffs but take a look at the broken crappile he started with and all the injuries this past two season.

it's absolutely ludicrous for an owner to say "me and the fans think this hasn't worked and we know we want this type of coach". i'm not a fan of JM but, as in some other situations around here, i feel he's being treated unfairly here (big surprise i suppose in pro sports) and feel like someone's gotta be sane and say this stuff. people (if the shoe fits...) - you and cohen are laymen. what you know about the game relative to a lifelong hockey guy like JM cannot be expressed in mathematical terms. you (i'm focusing on cohen here) are in no way qualified to choose the next coach. no way.

the guy's done a good job given the circumstances. he should be trusted to put someone on the bench that can drive the team he's putting together. end of story. bringing the fans or the owner into the decision bodes ill for this organization.

It's as if whenever the word injury is mentioned, OneOfTheHockeyGods comes out to argue with the entire Florida Panthers board.

It's getting kinda old.

The funny part is, I don't completely disagree with him. It's a matter of degree. He says the injuries are no excuse - I say they're a legitimate excuse, but not enough of one to justify keeping Martin as coach because the team didn't buy into his system completely and that's not a sign of a coach who has the ears of his players. All the third period meltdowns are what does it for me.

Well, since you answered your own question, I'll just toss out - he acquired Murray also (Martin can't be expected to foresee the guy separating his shoulder 7 games in, and the acquisition was a gamble that Murray could both fight and play instead of being a pure enforcer), Johanssen, and Wade Belak. He also signed Murphy, which certainly looked like a brilliant move before Muph's mystery injury sidelined him two months and killed off his offensive game. Who knows, he could even return to form after a summer off. Zednik was an offensive gamble, but he was scoring like a demon in January before his freak injury. Dvorak and McLean seemed less impressive signings, but Dvo's a key PKer for the team and McLean has performed well, though at season's end was in too big a role as a top line wing. But he did manage - was it 4 or 5 points in that one game in March?

Last year Martin was somewhat less active, but remember he had Bertuzzi's huge contract sitting on IR, so the moves he made to subract that and bring in Matthias as a prospect were an attempt to improve the team. Matthias really didn't take off until after the trade, so the Wings didn't think they were giving up much...then Martin also dealt draft picks for Vokoun, a blatant move to improve the current product on the ice.

Murray was useless in the few games he played. could not even skate and got pummeled in the only fights he had, doesn't scare anyone

It's as if whenever the word injury is mentioned, OneOfTheHockeyGods comes out to argue with the entire Florida Panthers board.

It's getting kinda old.

The Florida Panthers board is split in two, those who love Martin, and those who dislike Martin

The fundamental reason why didn't make the post season is an overall lack of talent on our roster. Not enough Top 6 forwards, and perhaps a lack of one more skilled Dman. All the other reasons contribute, and have some validity to them, but the lack of talent culminated in us missing the PO. Martin contributed to us missing, but it isn't entirely his fault.

It seems this topic just evolves into a new thread every hour, with no progress in people realizing anything new.

It's as if whenever the word injury is mentioned, OneOfTheHockeyGods comes out to argue with the entire Florida Panthers board.

It's getting kinda old.

sorry, but what I think has gotten very old is this organization's pitiful annual blame on factors we cannot control when the factors we can control are being drastically mishandled and conveniently overlooked

The funny part is, I don't completely disagree with him. It's a matter of degree. He says the injuries are no excuse - I say they're a legitimate excuse, but not enough of one to justify keeping Martin as coach because the team didn't buy into his system completely and that's not a sign of a coach who has the ears of his players. All the third period meltdowns are what does it for me.

Oh, no doubt, I agree. We had a lot of other problems aside from injures. But to say that injuries didn't play a factor is just ignorant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation

The Florida Panthers board is split in two, those who love Martin, and those who dislike Martin

Yes, but even people on both sides of the fence can agree that injuries did damage the team this year, and that we did lead the league in man games lost. The only person who routinely says it's a non-issue is OneOfTheHockeyGods.

The Florida Panthers board is split in two, those who love Martin, and those who dislike Martin

The fundamental reason why didn't make the post season is an overall lack of talent on our roster. Not enough Top 6 forwards, and perhaps a lack of one more skilled Dman. All the other reasons contribute, and have some validity to them, but the lack of talent culminated in us missing the PO. Martin contributed to us missing, but it isn't entirely his fault.

It seems this topic just evolves into a new thread every hour, with no progress in people realizing anything new.

i don't think that's a very fair characterization, though i do agree that little progress is made. i'd like to think those of us who support JM are taking a longer look at the organization's retooling. i agree (so does JM, btw) with your assessment of the team but it begs the question(s) - how do you address those needs? and can you do it all at once? and if not (or if it isn't prudent to try) how do you get from point A to point B?

we are in between A and B right now. it seems some are trying to step back and see that there is movement towards B and others are on the ground and want to at B right now. both are legitimate perspectives but they have to be balanced. imo, that's what JM was trying to do. he might've chosen a different player or three to help get us there this past off-season but he did not wreck what looks like the makings of good group of top 6 forwards for years to come. it's a tradeoff. it almost worked. perhaps someone else instead of dvo or mclean or zednik might've made the difference. that's where JM is most open to criticism. i'm just choosing to look at the overall progress and say "we'll get there - i'll give him a little more time".

i won't comment too much on some of those who are in the "on the ground" group because, as i said, it's a legitimate perspective. suffice it to say, though, that some are reasonable, intelligent posters and others are sorely lacking in both qualities.

sorry, but what I think has gotten very old is this organization's pitiful annual blame on factors we cannot control when the factors we can control are being drastically mishandled and conveniently overlooked

if you want to blame someone for the lack of depth, blame keenan and other former GMs. there is no way a GM can sufficiently build up enough depth to withstand 400+ man games lost in just one off-season. thats the facts, jack.

i don't think that's a very fair characterization, though i do agree that little progress is made. i'd like to think those of us who support JM are taking a longer look at the organization's retooling. i agree (so does JM, btw) with your assessment of the team but it begs the question(s) - how do you address those needs? and can you do it all at once? and if not (or if it isn't prudent to try) how do you get from point A to point B?

we are in between A and B right now. it seems some are trying to step back and see that there is movement towards B and others are on the ground and want to at B right now. both are legitimate perspectives but they have to be balanced. imo, that's what JM was trying to do. he might've chosen a different player or three to help get us there this past off-season but he did not wreck what looks like the makings of good group of top 6 forwards for years to come. it's a tradeoff. it almost worked. perhaps someone else instead of dvo or mclean or zednik might've made the difference. that's where JM is most open to criticism. i'm just choosing to look at the overall progress and say "we'll get there - i'll give him a little more time".

i won't comment too much on some of those who are in the "on the ground" group because, as i said, it's a legitimate perspective. suffice it to say, though, that some are reasonable, intelligent posters and others are sorely lacking in both qualities.

The line "Well, atleast i am not Mike Keenan" could probably enable Martin to keep his job for another few years

Patience is the key with any organisation which wishes to rise from mediocre results to a title contender, no matter what sport they reside in. Fans seem to have little patience (I have only supported Florida/hockey for 4 years, so patience comes easier to me), wanting managerial changes at the finale of each year when no major advancements are made.

I do agree, we are in a transitional phase at the moment (Have been for two years). We no longer are a basement team, but rather a team looking for slightly more emphasis to reach the next level, a contender. We are a few pieces away. Offense is that missing piece.

I am not a fan of Martin's coaching personally, and i like this move, and i don't mind him being GM still. However,He hasn't made any terrible moves (Kilger apart). One year in the job is not a long enough time period to guage his merit for the job and his abilities. He also has not had a surplus of talent to coach.

Everybody in the organisation has to share blame for the shortcomings. Cohen, Martin, Keenan (I include, his moves still impact us), Jokinen, and several players who have not played to their ability (Horton).

if you want to blame someone for the lack of depth, blame keenan and other former GMs. there is no way a GM can sufficiently build up enough depth to withstand 400+ man games lost in just one off-season. thats the facts, jack.

The line "Well, atleast i am not Mike Keenan" could probably enable Martin to keep his job for another few years

Patience is the key with any organisation which wishes to rise from mediocre results to a title contender, no matter what sport they reside in. Fans seem to have little patience (I have only supported Florida/hockey for 4 years, so patience comes easier to me), wanting managerial changes at the finale of each year when no major advancements are made.

I do agree, we are in a transitional phase at the moment (Have been for two years). We no longer are a basement team, but rather a team looking for slightly more emphasis to reach the next level, a contender. We are a few pieces away. Offense is that missing piece.

I am not a fan of Martin's coaching personally, and i like this move, and i don't mind him being GM still. However,He hasn't made any terrible moves (Kilger apart). One year in the job is not a long enough time period to guage his merit for the job and his abilities. He also has not had a surplus of talent to coach.

Everybody in the organisation has to share blame for the shortcomings. Cohen, Martin, Keenan (I include, his moves still impact us), Jokinen, and several players who have not played to their ability (Horton).

I can agree with that. While most want to get to B immediately like Zero said, to go from a 60 point team with no talent in the minors to a playoff contender takes time. Especially when the organization is losing over $20 million a year.

And I want to bring up two scenarios, and see what most think. Team A will go through the season with minimal injuries, Team B will go through the season with, lets be fair, 300 man games lost to some key Dmen and forwards. I guarantee that Team A makes the playoffs, and Team B battles Tampa for the first overall pick.

Some dont want to take into account the balance that this team had when healthy. Just like people in the meeting last night, they want stars on this team and thats all. Well that wouldnt have helped this team. You can argue all you want, call it "rediculous," but one player doesnt make the difference, its a team game.

I can agree with that. While most want to get to B immediately like Zero said, to go from a 60 point team with no talent in the minors to a playoff contender takes time. Especially when the organization is losing over $20 million a year.

And I want to bring up two scenarios, and see what most think. Team A will go through the season with minimal injuries, Team B will go through the season with, lets be fair, 300 man games lost to some key Dmen and forwards. I guarantee that Team A makes the playoffs, and Team B battles Tampa for the first overall pick.

Some dont want to take into account the balance that this team had when healthy. Just like people in the meeting last night, they want stars on this team and thats all. Well that wouldnt have helped this team. You can argue all you want, call it "rediculous," but one player doesnt make the difference, its a team game.

well put, pb. JM was betting on the first scenario and it didn't come to pass. is it his responsibility ultimately? yeah. taking everything into consideration, is it cause to tear management apart? no. as i said, i'll admit that perhaps a different player here or there might have changed things around a bit but, all in all, i think it was a reasonable off-season approach/gamble. just didn't turn out the way we all hoped. now we have this garbage to face as a result. i was ready to give cohen a pass after reading your summary of the meeting but it now appears significant damage had already been done to the integrity of the current management by way of his intrusions.

i gotta say, at this point, i'm wondering what JM is thinking. who in their right mind would want to stay someplace where lunatic fans and layman owners were making personnel and coaching decisions?

The title of this thread should be changed. It isn't 100% confirmed that Martin will be the GM. Cohen has offered to him to stay on in that position. Apparently, the decision will be made by Martin next week on whether or not he will stay as GM.

I can agree with that. While most want to get to B immediately like Zero said, to go from a 60 point team with no talent in the minors to a playoff contender takes time. Especially when the organization is losing over $20 million a year.

And I want to bring up two scenarios, and see what most think. Team A will go through the season with minimal injuries, Team B will go through the season with, lets be fair, 300 man games lost to some key Dmen and forwards. I guarantee that Team A makes the playoffs, and Team B battles Tampa for the first overall pick.

Some dont want to take into account the balance that this team had when healthy. Just like people in the meeting last night, they want stars on this team and thats all. Well that wouldnt have helped this team. You can argue all you want, call it "rediculous," but one player doesnt make the difference, its a team game.

Team B is "ridiculous" and clearly self serving. Monty, Belak, Kreps, and Campbell make next to nothing and should definitely be on the team. We could definitely have a gomez or a briere but that would mean we would have do without Stumpel and Van Ryn and Peltonen, not much of a loss. Also team B does not fight for the 1st overall pick. Gomez Jokinen and Horton would be a sick line with Horton and Jokinen becoming this franchises first pair of 40 goal scorers. Making the playoffs might be difficult with this "ridiculous" roster of AHL players who shouldn't be there because we could definitely have NHL players and Stars Not Stars and AHL players.

Philadelphia turned their season around from worst to the playoffs yet we still make excuses about development. Sure it takes time to build a perennial contender but that doesn't mean we can't make the playoffs in the meantime. There is a culture of loser and excuses within the Panthers organization. Read the articles after losses its the same story. Didn't play 60 minutes, didn't get enough pps, took too many penalties. Same story, different game. This is bigger than AHL guys.

Team B is "ridiculous" and clearly self serving. Monty, Belak, Kreps, and Campbell make next to nothing and should definitely be on the team. We could definitely have a gomez or a briere but that would mean we would have do without Stumpel and Van Ryn and Peltonen, not much of a loss. Also team B does not fight for the 1st overall pick. Gomez Jokinen and Horton would be a sick line with Horton and Jokinen becoming this franchises first pair of 40 goal scorers. Making the playoffs might be difficult with this "ridiculous" roster of AHL players who shouldn't be there because we could definitely have NHL players and Stars Not Stars and AHL players.

Philadelphia turned their season around from worst to the playoffs yet we still make excuses about development. Sure it takes time to build a perennial contender but that doesn't mean we can't make the playoffs in the meantime. There is a culture of loser and excuses within the Panthers organization. Read the articles after losses its the same story. Didn't play 60 minutes, didn't get enough pps, took too many penalties. Same story, different game. This is bigger than AHL guys.

philly doesn't help your case - they struggled to make the playoffs and the long term viability of their approach is yet to be validated. in addition, as some have pointed out, they were not in bad shape before their down season and had a lot more to wheel and deal with. the two situations could hardly have been more different. not that any of this realism will impact your hardened opinion..

philly doesn't help your case - they struggled to make the playoffs and the long term viability of their approach is yet to be validated. in addition, as some have pointed out, they were not in bad shape before their down season and had a lot more to wheel and deal with. the two situations could hardly have been more different. not that any of this realism will impact your hardened opinion..

I disagree with you on Philly. They acquired a goalie, number 1 dman and number 1 forward. They turned the team around. As for long term viability, the Panthers have yet to be validated as well. We acquired a number 1 goalie and fell short in other areas. Specifically scoring.

I disagree with you on Philly. They acquired a goalie, number 1 dman and number 1 forward. They turned the team around. As for long term viability, the Panthers have yet to be validated as well. We acquired a number 1 goalie and fell short in other areas. Specifically scoring.

and what did they acquire said talent with??? what is their budget/cap situation??? sure, JM's approach has yet to be validated. neither, though, has it been invalidated (despite your protests). it's a different approach that *obviously* requires some more time to evaluate.

and what did they acquire said talent with??? what is their budget/cap situation??? sure, JM's approach has yet to be validated. neither, though, has it been invalidated (despite your protests). it's a different approach that *obviously* requires some more time to evaluate.

We spend A LOT of money here despite what many think.

Time is money, we can't wait two years from now and say, well, that didn't work. Results speak for themselves and at the beginning of the season making the playoffs was expected and a pretty attainable goal.

Time is money, we can't wait two years from now and say, well, that didn't work. Results speak for themselves and at the beginning of the season making the playoffs was expected and a pretty attainable goal.