Rod, You and several billion people flying and living large are perfect examples of a disease. You offer no solutions . Enjoy the ride. You are correct that people will not radically change unless there is an attractive option . You have to build that model now with every drop of the energy you have or capitulate . I think you have already capitulated to a brutal solution. Every man for himself.

@petmYes, not having children is very important, but also is NOT HAVING ANY PETS!(a pet = enslaved and enprisoned other animal species for fun)

I am a bit disappointed that so many forummembers go on taking flights. The same disappointment I have with most climate scientists.

I have participated in videoconferences in 1996. We didn't need to fly.

Greta Thunberg, 16, she knows how not to be a hypocrite. She understands what EMERGENCY and CRISIS mean.Should I post a video of Severn Cullis-Suzuki from the 1992 Rio Summit?See here a reason I never wanted to belong to the grown-ups.

WHO THEN SHOULD SET THE GOOD EXAMPLES IF NOT THE CLIMATE SCIENTISTS?Where is the personal responsibility, the conscience?Forget the bit; I am very disappointed!

I stop typing now because I'm getting a bit angry.

Logged

"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

Well Rod, maybe you've given us the best example to understand why we're doomed. An intelligent person with worries about climate change saying he won't change his way of polluting because we need to do so in order to achieve a proper way of living.More than 20 years ago I worked in Greenpeace ships, even as captain. The reason to leave then was their refusal to abandon fosil fuels. I even presented them a project to study the use of H-cells in their ships, with the help of Sociedad Española del Hidrógeno. We had a ketch to play with it. They were more interested in finding a way to a front page (to rise more members) than really solving the problems of using fuels. They needed fossil fuels to save this world!!!I child can understand how idiots they were (and still are), just a self preserving entity (till everything collapse).A human canon.

This might call for another poll for the forum members. Unfortunately, the travelling habits are not easily polled. F.e. I just realized I had two weeks of nearly no car travelling (est 30 km) but if the poll was of the two previous weeks, the sum would be some 250 km, adding also bit of motorized boating. Some other person might be on a working flight of 2000 km producing co2 to the upper atmosphere where it cannot be readily converted back to oxygen by plants, instead floating slowly downwards and polewards. I can't figure out what poll question would be proper one.

Let's stop all scientific endeavor on solar panel cells that it uses high temperatures and electricity for melting silicon and purifying other materials because it uses fossil fuels now. Nobody should have a university if it is not powered right now with renewable energy. Those high volt transmission lines needed to transfer the energy of renewables to where it is used, they better be made using only renewable energy otherwise...hypocrisy!!!!!

Greta 'missing out on an education' .. spare the rod Rod .. she is already an educator .. if only the adults condemning her would learn from her instead . b.c.

Idolization, god syndrome, etc. She is a very bright kid that should ld be doing what she and her parents feel like. Dont ascribe to her more or less qualities than she has.

And yes, similar to star kid athletes, she is missing some education. It all depends on her how not to lose sth. I have known brilliant young activists that later in life faded because they did not have anything else than activism and the world moved on.

This subject is just silly. Climate activists would not be able to get to meetings if they could not fly.

People have to work. I fly a lot for my job. People need to take vacations and often flying is the only way to do that.

We have this wonderful technology today that is video conferencing. Physical meetings are not really necessary anymore, people are just unwilling to change their habits.

People also don't *need* to take faraway vacations. That is an extravagant luxury that 90% of the world's population almost never does.

B.S. , human interaction and reading of nonverbal cues are as important pieces of information as ever. I agree trips should be minimized, but some work cannot be done from afar.

Ok let's put aws in place to cage people in their 100 mile radius...your proposal will go very well...

You get 95% of all nonverbal cues through video. It is enough for pretty much all work-related purposes.

And yes, I think that would in fact go well. People would be mad, like a child being taken away his toys, but long term it would probably be best for humanity. It is an extreme measure, but the situation calls for extreme measures, because chances are the alternative is extinction. Of course this is all hypothetical, as people will never let such regulations happen, but I think that is a shortsighted, irrational and greedy decision.

Logged

Rich

I note Greta is coming to the USA by boat. But it is going to take her a long time and she is taking a year off of school. I don’t agree with all of her missed school even if I do agree with her message. At some point, when she grows up and wants to be an adult activist she will need an education and she is missing out on that right now.

Greta is missing out on education? ROFLMAO. Like maybe the Beatles should have gone to college to study music?

Greta is the fucking teacher and a leader. She's got more intelligence in her pinkie finger than all of us put together when it comes to actually addressing AGW. She is arguably the most visible and credible spokesperson on the planet and she is getting results.

You want her to be a better activist when she's an adult?? Sorry, she's at her peak powers because she is a kid. Smart of her to take a year off when her impact is at the max.

David Attenborough mentions pets' carbon footprint in his "How Many People Can Live on Planet Earth" documentary. I think it was broadcasted in the BBC Horizon series.

And it is not just pet food, which is mostly meat, but the combined foot print of all the pet shops and industries making toys, medication, housing, baskets, grooming and a plethora of other accessories.

Logged

"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

If everyone would just post according to the thread titel where it says: ....should not fly

It doesn't say; are not allowed to fly or anything dogmatic. It means thatpeople in and from all fields should not preach water and drink wine, at least not excessively andin masses. That does not exclude that someone who is against alcohol excess can't drink a glass or two of wine with a nice dinner.

Our biggest enemy is our subconscious mind, everyone can search google and find it easily confirmed and most symptoms that are falsely names as causes for things are not the real cause but it's human behavior in general and that is based a lot of subconscious patterns.

One huge side-effect among others is that people of the same opinion often fight fiercer over details than people of opposite opinions with just a minimum of respect.

They should eat measured and with using their brains, breathing is non-debatable, "force majeur" so to say, laughing is healthy for the one who laughs and for those around and re-incarnation depends "as what" i.e. a polar bear to learn the lesson first hand

We watch here every day the area numbers or the extent. We try to stay on topic, and the numbers offer us some insulation from the emotions that follow the subject. But over here on the rest maybe we get a glimpse into where it begins to hurt. Our friends betray us, or we eat an insult or two. We lay it out there and expose too our weaknesses. So over on the wildfire thread someone said the current Arctic fires are contributing ~ 1 percent of this years emissions. But that's OK I guess because airplanes only deliver ~ 3 percent and somehow that's minor? My problem is I personalize everything. After I learned about ocean acidification I had too damn much guilt to keep making a living by pouring 80 gallons of gas thriough my fishing boats gas tank every day. I can get pretty efficient here on the farm as long as I stay home but once a month I have to get in the truck and burn ~ 80 gallons getting my pigs to market. Now that one day burning fuel and emitting another ton of CO2 is certainly less than doing it ten times a month in my former occupation but it means I am just another average American spitting out his 15 tons of CO2. I suck and whether I feel guilty about it or rationalize it makes no difference. I don't even know if I should take responsibility for the carbon footprint of somebody else's food but how food is produced should get an accounting. Food is a very large chunk of everyone's carbon footprint. Being an environmentalist , preeminent scientist, or politician should not give anyone a pass on getting their personal emissions ( and the emissions from their job ) down to levels that might save the rest of us, or the ocean or the rest of the life forms we are taking with us. Elitism just sticks in my craw. If the brightest among us , the lettered, the informed can't get their emissions under control just how much do they expect from a pig farmer? Nothing really I suppose.

I think you are correct in how your personal carbon footprint is calculated. I am making the arguement that I am responsible for the emissions of my job just like I think scientists or environmentalists are responsible for their airplane travel footprint . I know this logic breaks down at some point but ignoring all the carbon costs of your chosen career is too damn handy for the rich.

Rich

Greta 'missing out on an education' .. spare the rod Rod .. she is already an educator .. if only the adults condemning her would learn from her instead . b.c.

Idolization, god syndrome, etc. She is a very bright kid that should ld be doing what she and her parents feel like. Dont ascribe to her more or less qualities than she has.

And yes, similar to star kid athletes, she is missing some education. It all depends on her how not to lose sth. I have known brilliant young activists that later in life faded because they did not have anything else than activism and the world moved on.

You are selling Greta short. She is more than just a bright kid in the same way that Martin Luther King was more than just a good public speaker.

Some people have an "it" factor.

Greta is not a normal kid. She has Asberger's and is operating from an internal framework that doesn't recognize that she is supposed to be deferential to power. MLK had the same quirk.

We're watching a little girl go toe to toe with the power brokers on the planet and ripping them to shreds to their faces in speech after speech. That's not normal. That's inspirational.

Nature abhors a vacuum and we see the wisdom in nature that provides us diversity and oddballs like Greta to fill those vacuums.

She has moved the fucking EU. Sweden has seen an 8% decline in air travel in the last year.

Given the high climate impact, why is it that so many environmentalists still choose to fly so much? I know climate activists who fly a hundred thousand miles per year. I know scientists who fly about as much but “just don’t think about it.” I even have a friend who blogged on the importance of bringing reusable water bottles on flights in order to pre-empt the miniature disposable bottles of water the attendants hand out. Although she saved around 0.04 kilograms of CO2 by refusing the disposable bottle, her flight to Asia emitted more than 4,000 kilograms, equivalent to some 100,000 bottles. I suspect that most people simply don’t know the huge impact of their flying — but I also suspect that many of us are addicted to it. We’ve come to see flying as an inalienable right, a benefit of 21st-century living that we take for granted.

The quantitative estimates of my emissions guided me as I set about resolving the dissonance between my principles and my actions. I began to change my daily life. I began to change myself.

How would you proceed if your goal would be to disrupt and split a community that you oppose or a movement that you want to disappear?

I would for example open a topic of which I know that my opponents have to be disunited due to facts of life, stage of development, age, needs, culture and economic conditions and let them fight each other and become enemies among friends.

Now perhaps a second question, if someone voted for the Donald, is it really wise to give him/her an opportunity of that kind.

These questions came to my mind when i re-capitulated why I'm not reading any of such person's posts and wondered about the many threads opened with disrupting/provocative nature.

Think yourself guys, it's a question and not everyone will have the same opinion again but don't forget, where is one are more of them so way reactions against post history.

<snippage> Elitism just sticks in my craw. If the brightest among us , the lettered, the informed can't get their emissions under control just how much do they expect from a pig farmer? Nothing really I suppose.

Great post in my view Bruce.Thank you for your high morality and vision. I understand your struggle and feel for you. Here's a warm hug for you .If only all richer people had the thoughts and doubts and struggles that you have, the living world would be much better.And I agree with you: Nothing really. Isn't that frustrating?

No matter if your actions don't make a dent, there is something called conscience and personal responsiblity, morality. To be able to live with yourself, with your understanding of the situation and not wanting to participate in the destruction. Expressed through your actions.It is hard. Very hard. To be an exception. To step back and use less. To be very different. I understand that I think.Thanks again Bruce, I like you very much. You are different in a very positive way I think.

Logged

"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

I think you are correct in how your personal carbon footprint is calculated. I am making the arguement that I am responsible for the emissions of my job just like I think scientists or environmentalists are responsible for their airplane travel footprint . I know this logic breaks down at some point but ignoring all the carbon costs of your chosen career is too damn handy for the rich.

When you consider that the delivery of your product is a necessary (carbon) cost of doing business, from what you've written I'd guess that your pork would still be among the least (carbon) expensive meat products on the market!

Your personal or your families carbon calculations should account for what you or they eat. Since your customer's footprints are being lowered by way of them eating the low carbon meat that you provide, the customers savings should be combined to your own footprint to give the true figure, which might well leave a negative footprint for you and yours.

One day in the future we can do statistics like what would have happened without all the EPA rollbacks and how much lives would that have saved because pollution actually kills people and not having to address worker safety kills people and so on.

PS: some of that pollution is also killing babies but by then it gets too complicated i guess.

Elton John is defending the royals' use of private jets amid controversy that the family is being hypocritical after advocating for the environment and fighting to protect the planet from climate change.John is upset over the attacks on Duchess Meghan and Prince Harry.“I am deeply distressed by today’s distorted and malicious account in the press surrounding the Duke and Duchess of Sussex’s private stay at my home in Nice last week.”https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/elton-john-defends-royals-attacks-media

2. At least once a year, I am required to get on an A380 and go drink Rüdesheimer Kaffee with my mother-in-law. Save the planet or happy marriage? I'm thinking......

1. True2. hmmmAlmost as if richer people don't want to have ANY discomfort or change of lifestyle. There is no embarrassment because they all live amongst other richer people, feeling succesful.

The AGW mitigation problem is not just the lying politicians, mass media and lobbying corporations. The richer people are in all countries the most important to politicians (and police).Politicians won't do anything to discomfort them and the police will protect them and their possessions. So they are the primary driver, the ones dragging their feet, obstructing mitigation. Responsible but unaccountable and protected.

Richer people again need a mother with absolute powers to correct your behaviour.

Logged

"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

It's easy to blame flying on "richer people", but when a typical rent is $1000-2000 per month, a weekend in a local hotel costs $500 or more, but a weekend away costs less than $400 including the flight and hotel, it is small wonder that many poorer people are flying too.As long as these are the economics, I don't expect the problem to go away soon.

1. Nanning, you don't lose any popularity here. Based on your previous posts, I would change shoes with you in a heartbeat, were it not for the beautiful German woman I sleep with.

2. For the record, I am middle class American and by no stretch "rich."

3. For the record, my wife and I drive a combined annual mileage less than 12,000 km--a lot by third world standards but very restrained in Ami land. There are three bicycles parked in our Wohnzimmer.

4. For the record, I/we have no kids.

5. You and I agree that it's the "richer people" that are taking us all down... you know, people driving $5 million racing yachts from Southhampton to NYC...... [Please see my other contemporary posts.]

Thank you for your kind words ShortBrutishNasty.Please consider that I walk barefoot a lot and I don't have vacations or sex .Great to read that you and your princess are cyclists .

I find it very difficult to define the 'richer people' group.I have thought that being middle class in the U.S.A. (I despise class hierarchy btw) would put you in that group. Not to offend you, just trying to draw a meaningful line. I don't know how to specify the attributes of that line. Monetary possesions and income have to be indexed to be meaningful. Then there's children and pets as an important factor. It would be very good to have a clear group to talk/write about.There are always richer people or worse offenders to point to and absolve the possible feeling of guilt. I am not saying you are doing that in your case. Frustratingly, I just don't know how to be specific enough and wake people up to lower their consumption. Addressing people that absolutely don't want to hear it is a very unpopular effort I expect.

In the Netherlands the economy is mainly driven by the consumption habits of what you call the middle class families with children. Their consumption is stimulated and protected by the government, which means no mitigation because GDP might go down or they won't get elected again by these people.

How many externalized costs in a flying ticket? What is the real price?How many externalized costs in a Kg of fossil fuel? What is the real price of driving cars around?

Now, where's that mother gone?

Logged

"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

But some experts who study clean transportation policy say shaming people is the wrong approach, noting that it can fuel ad hominem attacks on social media. Others, though, say the movement has brought much-needed attention to an important strategy for curbing global emissions.

The debate is playing out as airplanes remain one of the most carbon-intensive forms of travel. A round-trip flight from Washington, D.C., to San Francisco produces around 0.9 metric ton of carbon dioxide. That's equivalent to one-fifth of the greenhouse gases that the average American car produces in a year.

By all means, let’s ask European delegates to take the train to the Cop in Glasgow and celebrate individual examples – like Greta’s sea voyage to New York – as powerful symbols. But demanding low-carbon travel for all will only further disadvantage the most vulnerable.

There are many problems with the UN climate talks: corporate influences and the fossil fuel lobby continue to co-opt agreements and water down ambition as global temperatures rise. I hope voices like the Extinction Rebellion movement continue to criticize the process and take action at the next climate Cop.

I hope they act in service and in consultation with the most vulnerable. A global flotilla of ships and videoconferencing paid for by wealthy nations sounds idyllic but insisting on sustainable travel will only reinforce the exclusion of the global south.

Do #flyingless advocates realize that deepfakes may erode trust in media, & that trust is built via personal relationships? You may not be able to trust video+images in the future, lest you are in the same room as the speaker.

Logged

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein