This stamp goes somewhat with my last stamp, but I guess it's a little edgier.

To my fellow Christians who subscribe to this "hate the sin, love the sinner," mentality... I realize that many who hold this point of view are very loving and accepting people. That said, I have also far too often seen this little slogan misused to justify all manner of asinine comments toward people who hold slightly different views about controversial subjects like, say, abortion or homosexuality.

In the first place, the sinfulness of those actions (and other controversial things - those are just examples) has been debated for a very long time and will continue to be debated until Jesus returns. (Please don't bother commenting with "The Bible CLEARLY says..." or "God CLEARLY says...". Those comments will be ignored and hidden. If God or the Bible CLEARLY said anything on those subjects, they would not still be such a subject of debate among Christians.)

In the second place - even if these things are sinful, that doesn't mean we should be beating people over the head with it. We are commissioned by God to "make disciples of all nations". I don't know if you've noticed, but the apparent Christian obsession with sin is not making disciples of anyone. It is serving only to drive people away from God.

Besides - think about it this way: if someone truly chooses to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, they will learn to want to stop sinning, anyway, because the Holy Spirit will direct them thus. We need to let God do what He says He will do and worry about our own walk with him.

"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is better than hating the sinner, but the focus is still in the wrong place. Because we're still focusing on sin. We don't have the power to save people from sin. We need to stop trying and let God do that. Our focus ought to be on the love of Jesus, who gives us strength to turn from sin.

1 John 2:9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

Matthew 22:37-40Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and prophets."

Now, we could just sit here flicking scriptural spitballs at each other, or we can start applying some thought and having a reasonable conversation. I will leave that choice up to you.

You misunderstand me. All the verses I gave say that we should hate sin, not people. We're supposed to love people, all people, regardless of their sin. But we're supposed to abhor sin nonetheless, as God commands.

Oh my god right?! I did this fanfic for a person and some chick got all pissy at me because the couple was gay! She was btching because it wasnt aproprite to write about people like that!Wtf???!!!! Whats the big deal?

Agreed. I have friends on here of all sexualities, beliefs, and all walks of life. They don't beat me over the head with their beliefs, I don't beat them over the head with mine. It's not my place to judge people based on their lifestyle and I don't care to tell them they're wrong or going to hell for being a certain way. Even if I was that type, what good would it do? Most people don't respond kindly to being told they're horrible people/going to hell for being THEM. Especially if they don't hold the same beliefs as you. Chances are they won't even listen and would think you're stupid/crazy.

"Hate the sin, love the sinner," too often seems to get used as a spiffy little loophole for hating others. I keep trying to love everyone, and it's HARD. It's an exercise that will test your patience and your endurance, it will force you to walk the road in other people's shoes even when they don't fit. It will make you marvel at what a beautiful and unfair world it is. You can't substitute real efforts at loving others for a trite phrase that lets you get around the issue: You really have to love those people, not just call your hate 'love.'

Maybe I'm not being fair to others, here, maybe my interpretation is sometimes unfounded. But it's something that's been on my mind. I like the stamp. Best wishes, and thank you.

I'm thinking more about the sentence in your last paragraph, 'We don't have the power to save people from sin.' It's true, but people try to persuade whatever the individual is doing to stop, especially if it's harming them. I see nothing wrong with that, but people shouldn't force them if they don't want to however.

-bows down to you- I am not worthy. They should seriously put this up on a billboard. I've heard that phrase way too many times. I pity people who live by/support that phrase because they don't see a person who bleeds and breathes just like them. They only see what they call "sin". Besides, if you seriously DID follow that phrase, you'd have to, in the end, hate yourself too. Not any one single person has never or will never sin.

hm...i agree with your statement, but not all are bat-shit insane and take this out of proportion. hate the sin, yes, but people seem to forget that hating the sin is in fact different than hating the sinner. they get mixed up a whole lot.

i suppose i should say i support it being " "AVOID" the sin, love the sinner." or something along those lines. we who are convicted to avoid the sin do, and help those who were at the same point we were.

I'm sorry, as I do believe your heart is in the right place, but this stamp preaches a very wrong message.

You made a point to state that the sinfulness of your example sins has been debated for a long time. Well, yes, but that's simply because some are confused and some are not. The sinfulness of murder(I mean regular murder, not using that as a euphemism for abortion) has been debated among some, I'm sure, but that doesn't not change what is, or isn't, the correct answer. Anyone can debate anything. Debates simply mean that 2 sides have different views, and on a subject such as abortion or homosexuality, one side is simply wrong. The debate comes, when just don't see that, or don't want to accept it.

Furthermore, it was somewhat unfair for you to use people who "be beating people over the head with it[sin]" as an example in your argument against the phrase "Hate the sin, love the sinner". It should seem obvious that anyone who says this and then contradicts it, is simply misusing the phrase. Anyone can say anything, but the Lord says we are to judge people by their fruits. If we start debunking good logical terms simply because they are misused, then we're doomed to confusion and repeated mistakes.

On the "disciples of all nations" point..We are in the end times, if not the very end times. The number of disciples has not dwindled because of Christians obsession with sin, but because of mankind's obsession with sin. Everywhere you turn sin is being accepted, and even promoted in our modern society. There is nothing Christians can do to stop this, completely. This earth, this life, is doomed, as is foretold in scripture. We can not, and will not win, until the return of Jesus Christ. Our job here is not to save the world, but to help as many souls as we can see the truth, and let Jesus save them.

Lastly, those who believe that by speaking out against other's sin, is saving them from said sin, are simply confused. Their hearts may be in the right place, but they misunderstood something along the way. That being said, I think that was an unfair point to make in this argument. You are right, we cannot save people from their sin, but we cannot expect them to let Jesus save them, without someone opening their eyes to the very fact that they need saving. This is the very heart of the phrase "Hate the sin, love the sinner". We are to show the person love and acceptance, but we are to condemn their sinful actions, so that they can see the wrong in their ways. If they cannot see our hate for the sin, how will they understand our argument that it is wrong? Because, it just doesn't make sense that someone would not hate something that they believe is 100% irredeemably wrong.

That brings me to my final words on the matter..Nothing else is mean to be hated, if not sin. Sin is not a being, it is not a life, it is an action. A harmful, cursed, completely irredeemable action. No good can come from sin, just as no evil can come from God. Sin is evil, as is plain to see by the fruits it's tree bares. Yes, god said to love our enemies, but sin is not a living, breathing enemy, nor even a spiritual one. Sin is the tool of our enemies, used for nothing but evil. If we do not righteously hate sin, then we have already lost. How can we confront those who sin, without accepting the fact that they are sinning and that sin is to be hated, and we are to do everything in our power, to stop it.

You made a point to state that the sinfulness of your example sins has been debated for a long time. Well, yes, but that's simply because some are confused and some are not. The sinfulness of murder(I mean regular murder, not using that as a euphemism for abortion) has been debated among some, I'm sure, but that doesn't not change what is, or isn't, the correct answer.

I disagree - murder has been clearly wrong for centuries. The Ten Commandments, Hammurabi's Code, and many other ancient sources agree on this. It's not just a question of Biblical interpretation but commonly accepted law. That is very different from homosexuality, for example. Even if it was that "some are confused and some are not" - if you really take an honest look at it, you'll see that if scripture truly was clear on the matter, there would be no confusion. But there are true Christians with the Holy Spirit within them who are also gay.

If we start debunking good logical terms simply because they are misused, then we're doomed to confusion and repeated mistakes.

And if we don't challenge statements that are so overly abused, then that abuse will continue to grow and drive people away from Christ.

The number of disciples has not dwindled because of Christians obsession with sin, but because of mankind's obsession with sin.

My experience as a Christian tells me otherwise. Too many Christians spend more time talking about sin than they spend talking about the perfect love of God. That is a dangerous placement of priorities, as it is nothing like the example Jesus sets. I said in my comments that Jesus wasn't above pointing out sin. But that seems to be all that way too many Christians live for, and that is most assuredly not helping people see the love of Christ and come to him.

There is nothing Christians can do to stop this, completely.

Then they need to stop trying. If sinners truly accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, then He will help them to change. We need to do our job and let God do his.

If they cannot see our hate for the sin, how will they understand our argument that it is wrong?

I mentioned this example to another person, but look at Luke 19. A familiar story about a man named Zaccheus. Look very carefully - what does Jesus say to Zaccheus about his sin? Absolutely nothing. But Zaccheus is so overwhelmed by Jesus's love for him that he changes because he wants to please Jesus. Another example - when Jesus talks with Nicodemus about what a person must do to be saved, he focuses on a need for believing in him. He doesn't ramble on about sin - mentions it, yes - but doesn't go listing all the things that are sinful, like Christians seem to do quite often.

No good can come from sin, just as no evil can come from God.

But hate is evil (wicked, by NLT reckoning), too. God, speaking through Paul, says as much in Romans 1:29. Hate is a contradiction of love. God is love; ergo, hate is a contradiction of God. If we have hate in our lives - any hate - than we have a problem. I'm not by any means saying we should condone sin. I am saying our focus needs to shift away from it. If someone has their eyes on the glory of God, they will not be thinking about sin. They won't be able to. That's how we take a stand against sin - we draw people's eyes to the glory of God.

Oookay, really long response here. Thanks for making me think. If you want to keep talking about this, please send me a note. These comments are taking up a lot of space on the page

I pretty much agreed with you until the fourth paragraph or so. Maybe not disagree... I just feel you left out something I'd like you to explain further. You say that the Holy spirit will guide Christians closer to God (and I totally agree) but what about people who aren't Christians? What do you think is the politically correct way of addressing sin towards them? Because nine times out of ten feathers will be ruffled, regardless of how often you mention it or how polite you are.

I really liked this quote:"We hate sin by refusing to take part in it and by condemning it when we see it. Sin is to be hated, not excused or taken lightly. It is not loving to allow a person to remain stuck in sin. It is not hateful to tell a person he/she is in sin. In fact, the exact opposites are true. We love the sinner by speaking the truth *in love*. We hate the sin by refusing to condone, ignore, or excuse it." (Westboro Baptist Church is the worst possible example of this... ever...)

Otherwise, I feel I am compromising on my own beliefs to avoid conflict with someone else's opinions. Leaving them (unprotested) in a state which, I believe in my heart, is terribly detrimental to them. So while the Bible never says, 'Hate sin, love sinners,' it does say that Christ loves sinners and that he hates sin. If I am to be 'like Christ,' should I not do the same? (And perhaps if you dislike the word 'hate' we can use 'reject'? C: )

Aaaannnyways. Speech done. I really appreciate you sharing your opinion. It made my brain hurt from the exercise, but I think I'm better for it. XD And I am very serious when I say I want to know your opinions on witnessing. I have a very close friend who does not believe in God, and I can always use advice on how I might speak with him and not ruffle feathers. Because I like his feathers c:

You say that the Holy spirit will guide Christians closer to God (and I totally agree) but what about people who aren't Christians?

I'm not saying we can just ignore sin completely, but what's the point of focusing on such specific things? Why is it always "you can't be a Christian if you're gay" or "you can't be a Christian if you have abortions"? Anyone can be a Christian, regardless of what sins they commit. John 3:16 says "whoever". Christians keep trying to get non-Christians to "clean up their act" to become Christians. This is wrong, because as you and I know, that is not possible without the help of the Holy Spirit.

We hate the sin by refusing to condone, ignore, or excuse it.

Hate is a dangerous thing. When we hate something, that opens things up for more hate. Why not just leave it at "We refuse to condone, ignore, or excuse sin."?

Otherwise, I feel I am compromising on my own beliefs to avoid conflict with someone else's opinions.

It's possible to disagree and still avoid conflict. Let our message be, "God loves you, and he wants what is best for you". If people choose to reject that, then so be it. There's not much we can do about it. I can practically guarantee that the whole "you're a SINNER! and you need ya some JAYZUS!" message won't be nearly as productive. Trust me on that one. I've tried both.

And perhaps if you dislike the word 'hate' we can use 'reject'?

I think that is a much better choice of words.

I have a very close friend who does not believe in God, and I can always use advice on how I might speak with him and not ruffle feathers.

I'd be happy to help you in whatever way I can. Just note me if you need to talk.

"I'm not saying we can just ignore sin completely, but what's the point of focusing on such specific things? Why is it always "you can't be a Christian if you're gay" or "you can't be a Christian if you have abortions"? Anyone can be a Christian, regardless of what sins they commit. John 3:16 says "whoever". Christians keep trying to get non-Christians to "clean up their act" to become Christians. This is wrong, because as you and I know, that is not possible without the help of the Holy Spirit."

Yes, anyone can be a Christian, and we shouldn't beat people down about their sins..if they're REPENTING. However, it is wrong to lead someone to believe that they can continue to openly live in their sin with the idea that "I can do whatever I want, cause Jesus loves me!". Repentance is the key, and often the hardest part, for ANY Christian, no matter the sin.

"we shouldn't beat people down about their sins..if they're REPENTING"

We shouldn't beat people down about their sins ever. Whether they repent or not. That's their choice, and as sad as it may be, we have to let them make that choice.

Yes, repentance is important, but it is NOT the first step, as Christians are trying to make it. Admitting our need for Christ and believing in his divine ability to help are first. Then comes committing our lives to him.

I'm sorry, I worded that wrongly. What I should have said was, we shouldn't rehash people's sins, if they're repenting. You're right, we should never beat people down about their sins. Yes, they have to make that choice themselves.

Admitting our need for Christ is the first step, but it goes so hand in hand in hand with repenting that they are almost one in the same.

I agree with all you said. Yes, our focus should be on love, not sin. We should try not to scare/guilt/condemn people away by ramming their "sins" down their throats. However I do think we need to be careful that we don't become ACCEPTING of sin. In that sense, hating sin isn't a bad thing. I mean, we shouldn't just accept it and never try to make it better.