Though I wasn't a fan of Sisko's part in getting the Romulans to join in the Dominion war.

Click to expand...

But . . . but that's one of the very best DS9 episodes?

Click to expand...

I always thought so. Then again from what I've seen, those who don't like it are very... passionate about it going against what Trek is supposed to be.

Personally I thought that was what made DS9 so great. It's easy to preach about better natures and evolved societies when you live in a utopia, but not everyone else does and sooner or later you're going to bump up against those societies.

Though I wasn't a fan of Sisko's part in getting the Romulans to join in the Dominion war.

Click to expand...

But . . . but that's one of the very best DS9 episodes?

Click to expand...

I always thought so. Then again from what I've seen, those who don't like it are very... passionate about it going against what Trek is supposed to be.

Personally I thought that was what made DS9 so great. It's easy to preach about better natures and evolved societies when you live in a utopia, but not everyone else does and sooner or later you're going to bump up against those societies.

Click to expand...

Exactly. If the morality is too pat and the characters too squeaky-clean, then you're just making the futuristic equivalent of an ABC After-School Special. Life is messy and sometimes there are no easy answers--even in the 24th century.

But you can't go home again. If we got a new series that was somehow tied to that universe, the style and content of the show would be so far removed from the series I loved in the 90's that any continuity tie would be academic.

No one dislikes it, we just think characters are more important than coninuity. New anything-can-happen stories with our favourite characters > unknown characters who happen to live in the same universe as TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT.

Who said anything about dreary? Just because it's darker doesn't mean that it has to be bad. I thought Moore did a great job with BSG & didn't find it dreary at all.

Click to expand...

I did. There wasn't a single likable character in the bunch. By the end of the second season I was rooting for the Cylons to finish the job exterminating humanity.

I like for my Star Trek to be about an optimistic future where we are still human but we made it.

Click to expand...

^^ QFT. I watched BSG all the way through and as each episode aired, I couldn't think of group of people more deserving of being victims of genocide than the refugees from the Colonies. You are definitely right about rooting for the Cylons. The only two people who deserved to live on that show were Helo and Athena. As far the rest, I'd open the airlock myself.

Same deal with Stargate: Universe. I kind of wished everyone on that ship would go through the Stargate and meet a titanium iris on the other side.

I'd be willing to see a more "realistic" or "grittier" Star Trek series, as long as the writers don't make everyone an asshole.

Edit to add: I might spare Doc Cottle as well .. he was an asshole, but I'm pretty sure it was just because he wanted to airlock everyone too.

I mean, I liked everything about the episode, mostly Garak, but Sisko wasn't very "Captain"ly. It shows his human side but Captains are suppose to be above that sort of dealing.

Click to expand...

Above it? So you'd have them lose the war on principle and let humanity along with every other neighboring race enslaved or destroyed simply because they should be above that sort of thing? Or did you expect Sisko to delegate it to O'brien?

^I'm not saying they should have kept the Romulans out of it, I'm saying they could have done it differently. Maybe Sisko could have exposed the Dominion's plan of galactic control to the Romulans. If Sisko had to be apart of a cover up, maybe throw Section 31 into it (focusing the blame on them) or have him save the log he wrote during that episode for future judgement. It could be what you said about fans being passionate about it going against what Trek is supposed to be. I was more shocked at his choice than respecting it.

^I'm not saying they should have kept the Romulans out of it, I'm saying they could have done it differently. Maybe exposed the Dominion's plan of galactic control to the Romulans. If Sisko had to be apart of a cover up, maybe throw Section 31 into it or have him save the log he wrote during that episode for future judgement. It could be what you said about fans being passionate about it going against what Trek is supposed to be. I was more shocked at his choice than respecting it.

Click to expand...

In the end, he made the only choice that could be made. How many months or years could it have taken to come up with real evidence of the Dominion's plans?

^I'm not saying they should have kept the Romulans out of it, I'm saying they could have done it differently. Maybe Sisko could have exposed the Dominion's plan of galactic control to the Romulans. If Sisko had to be apart of a cover up, maybe throw Section 31 into it (focusing the blame on them) or have him save the log he wrote during that episode for future judgement. It could be what you said about fans being passionate about it going against what Trek is supposed to be. I was more shocked at his choice than respecting it.

Click to expand...

As BillJ said, assuming the Dominion is dumb enough to even document those plans, they're not readily accessible At all and they were losing the war then and now. They even tried and it cost the lives of Garak's associates. And really... I dislike the notion that every time a human does something bad it HAS to be Section 31. The novels especially tend to take this too far. Forbid the whole race isn't perfect and anyone that isn't just has to be part of the Axis of Evil.

Save the log entry? Are you nuts? A log entry can be hacked easy enough. Heck we see Starfleet officers dig through other people's personal logs all the time. If word of that came out later, it would lead to another war and even more people dying. I can understand people not liking the choice, it literally was a case of choosing bad vs worse, but the way you're speaking against it... what do you think he should have done? Would you have respected him more if he didn't act and the Federation lost the war?

Being a Starfleet commander during a time of war is not going to be fun or pretty. You're going to have to make hard decisions that are going to cost lives and take a toll on your conscience. That episode works because it's honest enough to admit that.

There's a reason they call it "the final frontier." Because it's sometimes rough and dangerous.

And really... I dislike the notion that every time a human does something bad it HAS to be Section 31. The novels especially tend to take this too far. Forbid the whole race isn't perfect and anyone that isn't just has to be part of the Axis of Evil.

Click to expand...

It's a cheat to blame it on Section 31, I know, but they have always been Starfleets way of having their cake and eating it too.

Save the log entry? Are you nuts? A log entry can be hacked easy enough.