I'm guessing that since the S2 is 37.5mp, Leica is looking at the H3DIII-39 as their pricing benchmark. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I expect Kodak and Dalsa to offer their new 6 micron pixel technology in the smaller 44x33mm formats too, producing about 40MP (7333x5500) sensors similar in size and production cost to the 45x30mm sensor of the S2. And Kodak will probably equip its new 44x33mm sensors with micro-lenses, as in its current 44x33mm sensors and the new 45x30mm for Leica.

Then the S2 will probably compete with new 44x33mm models, at least on production costs and sensor performance. But the Leica S system might have a big advantage from its better match of lens format and focal length choices to sensor format, compared to using a 44x33mm sensor with a lens system adapted to 56x42mm or even 56x56mm.

I expect Kodak and Dalsa to offer their new 6 micron pixel technology in the smaller 44x33mm formats too, producing about 40MP (7333x5500) sensors similar in size and production cost to the 45x30mm sensor of the S2. And Kodak will probably equip its new 44x33mm sensors with micro-lenses, as in its current 44x33mm sensors and the new 45x30mm for Leica.

Then the S2 will probably compete with new 44x33mm models, at least on production costs and sensor performance. But the Leica S system might have a big advantage from its better match of lens format and focal length choices to sensor format, compared to using a 44x33mm sensor with a lens system adapted to 56x42mm or even 56x56mm.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225775\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is a good point.

The price differences between formats will not be too large in any case, but sensor size and lenses format make a difference for sure.

Would I love a P21+ back duct-taped onto the back of a 1ds3 body? Absolutely, but it's not gonna happen.

It would be kinda interesting to see what kinds of images would come out with that workflow, ie. Canon lens, Canon CMOS, Canon LCD, P21+ at point-blank. The sensor is smaller than the LCD, so there would be a crop factor

I'm sure the lenses will be sharp and the build quality will be excellent, but if the m8 is any indication the lenses will need calibration and it will be 5 firmware updates until they get the color right.

I don't think this will be the case. First of all, different CEO, and the new one is also the owner, and had to go through the pain of fixing everything which went wrong.

Secondly, the rangefinder in the M cameras is an ancient, mechanical wonder made by gnomes under the mountains in fairytale land, and the lenses move the focus via a shaped metal ramp, a little off-center wheel, a metal arm, and a multiple of other tiny components, any one of which can be knocked out of alignment by a mild bump. I love my M8 and those lenses are to kill for, but I would love a better, more stable focusing system. The S2 won't repeat this weird setup. And don't forget, Leica invented autofocus (I am pretty sure). They dropped it because they thought their customers wouldn't want it. Boy were they wrong, but that was back then.

Thirdly, while Leica has been very adamant that the S2 is 100% Leica, Phase One and Jenoptik are not there for show only. Leica is expanding like crazy, bringing all the Solms people and buildings back to Wetzlar where it all started, buying up little German specialist companies and integrating them in Leica, and they are really ramping up for something big. The new German-born owner is one of the richest people in Austria, and is a dyed-in-the-wool Leica fanatic himself, so you know his heart is in this, and not in the stock price or somesuch. My personal guess is that Phase One and Jenoptik are consulting with Leica. Things backfired with the DMR and Imacon, so this time, I am certain that there are behind-the-scenes deals about what Leica does and does not market, and this time they want to learn how to do everything themselves, to avoid the DMR firmware debacle. Phase One is apparently getting Leica lenses for the Phamiya, so you know that Leica and Phase aren't joking. That is serious IP there, and Leica has never gone so far before (Panasonic doesn't count here; another class). This isn't just about Capture One.

I guess none of us are old enough to remember this, but Leica was at the top of the heap some decades ago. Such memories (and losses) live long in the German psyche, and I do believe that it is Dr. Kaufmann's intention to get Leica back on top.

Quote from: James R Russell

I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become. Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past.

Given how closely the Leica news were guarded up until the last few days this time, I am pretty sure that they did not tell us all their spectacular news 9 months in advance of the first product. They are incredibly secretive at the moment, and this pre-announcement just doesn't fit that pattern. I suspect two things: first of all, Dr. Kaufmann stated on the record that the price (sadly I don't know if this is for the kit or the body) would be between 10.000-20.000 Euro, and that they hope to keep the price below 15.000 Euro. He would never say that unless they were almost positive that they can keep the price below 15.000 Euro, IMO, but maybe they are in fact intending to shoot for 10K? That would be a real coup, and in line with the rest of the news. Secondly, I expect that they have been holding back on lens specs, to see what the reaction would be. I suspect that they will throw in a couple of real pearls at release.

I do believe that the real intention here is to show the world that, given a clean sheet, Leica can out-design the rest of the world, including companies like Hasselblad. The R+DMR was hampered by a lineup of manual-focus lenses and a body designed for film, plus a lack of funding. The M8 was hampered by a brilliant lineup of expensive lenses which throw the light at the sensor at very oblique angles. The S2 will have no such issues. Given Leica's love of the simple and direct, I expect that this camera will be a joy to use, and will spawn a whole new generation of super-annoying Leica fanatics. I hope to be one of them.

I don't know if they will succeed, but this is what I think they are trying. Good luck to them!

Ah, I forgot to mention, Leica appears to be taking a different direction with these lenses, one which may mean that they can manufacture them cheaper than in the past. For one, they are re-using optical and mechanical components in various lenses, and secondly, there are no crazy 50mm f/0.95 or 21mm f/1.4 lenses here, just solid, useful designs. We'll see.

I don't think this will be the case. First of all, different CEO, and the new one is also the owner, and had to go through the pain of fixing everything which went wrong.

Secondly, the rangefinder in the M cameras is an ancient, mechanical wonder made by gnomes under the mountains in fairytale land, and the lenses move the focus via a shaped metal ramp, a little off-center wheel, a metal arm, and a multiple of other tiny components, any one of which can be knocked out of alignment by a mild bump. I love my M8 and those lenses are to kill for, but I would love a better, more stable focusing system. The S2 won't repeat this weird setup. And don't forget, Leica invented autofocus (I am pretty sure). They dropped it because they thought their customers wouldn't want it. Boy were they wrong, but that was back then.

Thirdly, while Leica has been very adamant that the S2 is 100% Leica, Phase One and Jenoptik are not there for show only. Leica is expanding like crazy, bringing all the Solms people and buildings back to Wetzlar where it all started, buying up little German specialist companies and integrating them in Leica, and they are really ramping up for something big. The new German-born owner is one of the richest people in Austria, and is a dyed-in-the-wool Leica fanatic himself, so you know his heart is in this, and not in the stock price or somesuch. My personal guess is that Phase One and Jenoptik are consulting with Leica. Things backfired with the DMR and Imacon, so this time, I am certain that there are behind-the-scenes deals about what Leica does and does not market, and this time they want to learn how to do everything themselves, to avoid the DMR firmware debacle. Phase One is apparently getting Leica lenses for the Phamiya, so you know that Leica and Phase aren't joking. That is serious IP there, and Leica has never gone so far before (Panasonic doesn't count here; another class). This isn't just about Capture One.

I guess none of us are old enough to remember this, but Leica was at the top of the heap some decades ago. Such memories (and losses) live long in the German psyche, and I do believe that it is Dr. Kaufmann's intention to get Leica back on top.

Given how closely the Leica news were guarded up until the last few days this time, I am pretty sure that they did not tell us all their spectacular news 9 months in advance of the first product. They are incredibly secretive at the moment, and this pre-announcement just doesn't fit that pattern. I suspect two things: first of all, Dr. Kaufmann stated on the record that the price (sadly I don't know if this is for the kit or the body) would be between 10.000-20.000 Euro, and that they hope to keep the price below 15.000 Euro. He would never say that unless they were almost positive that they can keep the price below 15.000 Euro, IMO, but maybe they are in fact intending to shoot for 10K? That would be a real coup, and in line with the rest of the news. Secondly, I expect that they have been holding back on lens specs, to see what the reaction would be. I suspect that they will throw in a couple of real pearls at release.

I do believe that the real intention here is to show the world that, given a clean sheet, Leica can out-design the rest of the world, including companies like Hasselblad. The R+DMR was hampered by a lineup of manual-focus lenses and a body designed for film, plus a lack of funding. The M8 was hampered by a brilliant lineup of expensive lenses which throw the light at the sensor at very oblique angles. The S2 will have no such issues. Given Leica's love of the simple and direct, I expect that this camera will be a joy to use, and will spawn a whole new generation of super-annoying Leica fanatics. I hope to be one of them.

I don't know if they will succeed, but this is what I think they are trying. Good luck to them!

Ah, I forgot to mention, Leica appears to be taking a different direction with these lenses, one which may mean that they can manufacture them cheaper than in the past. For one, they are re-using optical and mechanical components in various lenses, and secondly, there are no crazy 50mm f/0.95 or 21mm f/1.4 lenses here, just solid, useful designs. We'll see.

wow carstenw, that was some speech, discourse or whatever.. my right arm kept involuntarily going up in the air.. I think you see this as I do.. red and black are destined to have new meaning.. long live the red dot.

What I like about the S2 is its simplicity. I expect the S2 will be joined quickly by a 35mm brother.Leica told me they have a fast portrait lens under design.

What remains to be seen is whether the S2 can really make better images than the 5DII on location. This is not obvious at all.The Canons have a super-fast sensor, a very complete AF system, and some fast lenses that are world class (85/1.2).

At the moment I'm using a Sony TG3E video camera as a still device, and the ease of use, tele lens and stabilisation are frighteningly good - competition for existing devices may not come from the obvious places.

wow carstenw, that was some speech, discourse or whatever.. my right arm kept involuntarily going up in the air.. I think you see this as I do.. red and black are destined to have new meaning.. long live the red dot.

wow carstenw, that was some speech, discourse or whatever.. my right arm kept involuntarily going up in the air.. I think you see this as I do.. red and black are destined to have new meaning.. long live the red dot.

HA HA! Wow, that is what I was thinking. Do you think someone will INFORM if they see I cover the RED and BLACK of the Leica crest on my M4P and M6 with electrical tape? I just want to keep my nose clean under the new regime.

S2 on Location if its anything like the M8: Shoot for a while, have a problem tethering, stop. take out teh battery, try to tell the talent jokes, self deprecating remarks as the client comes over and asks "Is there a Problem?" Camera unlocks but now all images are green tinted, and the blacks are magenta. At this point you pull out the Canon 5d2 and finish the job, the client gets the images and doesn't know the difference.

That's why the question was which one would do a better job "on location".

I am not, although I *am* living in Berlin. I am a Leica fan though, borderline annoying, and I do believe that this company, with this management, will be able to pull off something non-trivial. They have done it before, and of course, it helps having the world's best lens designers under your roof. This is one reason Mamiya et al will never really be able to pull away from the rest. Their lenses are good, but not better than anyone else's. In the end it is all about the lenses. Sensor tech is already stabilizing slowly, like film did once upon a time. Workflow is the wild card, I suppose. Erm, and reliability

S2 on Location if its anything like the M8: Shoot for a while, have a problem tethering, stop. take out teh battery, try to tell the talent jokes, self deprecating remarks as the client comes over and asks "Is there a Problem?" Camera unlocks but now all images are green tinted, and the blacks are magenta. At this point you pull out the Canon 5d2 and finish the job, the client gets the images and doesn't know the difference.

That's why the question was which one would do a better job "on location".

Then how about getting some field reliability data instead of making assumptions? If I were to assume all Canon lenses performed as well as the ones I'm familiar with, I'd be shocked that anyone would want to use them at all (obviously my samples were sub-par). The S2 and the M8 are entirely different, developed by different teams under different management. I believe that an assumption regarding the usability of one based on early samples of the other is simply prejudicial. The numerous prototype S2 cameras on hand at Photokina exhibited no problems despite being handled and used by hundreds of Photokina visitors.

See, they announced a 100/2.5 or 100/3.5, depending on the source, non-CS, but that just makes no sense to me. If they want to beat the world, they have to take on lenses like the Zeiss 110/2, and this means, for this sensor, a 100/2, at least. I believe that they will shoot for this, or better.

I have absolutely no doubt that the image quality of the S2 is going to fantastic. My concern is about service. There are few shops that can deal with even the older cameras and I hear they haven't done any training to independent shops for anything modern. I took my r8 into a local shop with a sticky mirror - guy couldn't do it so sent it in to Leica. 3 months later I had my camera back - not repaired! Had to send it back in to leica directly and waited two more months. Yes I didn't have a back up but bought one immediately second hand, but it had an exposure metering problem and didn't mate well with my DMR and would have to have focus calibrated so sent it back. That was frustrating and while my DMR was sitting there waiting for the body to come back I contemplated selling it several times and probably should have. But the DMR images sing and its a joy to use - just a pleasure to work with however I wouldn't consider using it as my only camera and typically only bring it along with another camera to a shoot. After having this experience with the DMR and reading everyone's experiences with the M8 I doubt I'll buy the S2 or will wait at least until its been out for a while and proven. Carsten, I don't blame you for being a Leica loyalist, but thinking its going to be different this time seems overly optimistic. Even Canon has issues with some of their cameras on launch. The 1Ds2 lost files, and there have been all kinds of focus issues.

The great thing about the DMR and the M8 was that there were tons of used lenses out there all of which were really high optical quality even the older ones. That made getting into a system more affordable and less risk. No doubt the S2 lenses will be great, but what are they going to cost? $3k each, $5k each or more? I can easily see higher. That's my second concern - cost.

You can go get a RZ kit now with a whole set of lenses for like $5k for everything. I picked up 2 PQ lenses and an extender for my Rollei for $400 and these will work fine on the Hy6/AFi I just can't imagine that the leica glass is going to be that much better to make it worth it. When you compare the leica 35mm format lenses to canon it's pretty obvious how much better they are, but MF has a lot of very high quality systems and I don't think the differences will be all that great. Currently it appears that quite a lot of my Rollei lenses are out resolving my sensor - so another question is would you be able to see it anyhow? I hope it turns out to be everything we are lead to believe, but until its real and we've seen some samples I'm going to remain a skeptic.

Carsten, I don't blame you for being a Leica loyalist, but thinking its going to be different this time seems overly optimistic. Even Canon has issues with some of their cameras on launch. The 1Ds2 lost files, and there have been all kinds of focus issues.

I don't consider myself a Leica loyalist, nor an apologist, and I find it incredibly frustrating to watch Leica's service train crash in slow motion, but the signs coming out of Solms are different these days, it would be hard to miss. I think that they are taking this way more seriously than we are guessing, from top to bottom. I don't expect perfection, but I do hope for, and expect, a system which one can live with, and no multi-month waits.

By the way, there are rumours of a Leica pro service which isn't advertised that well, where one gets better service. Have you looked into this (and by looked into, I mean asked someone at Solms, not New Jersey)?

By the way, there are rumours of a Leica pro service which isn't advertised that well, where one gets better service. Have you looked into this (and by looked into, I mean asked someone at Solms, not New Jersey)?

Yeah, I heard this too.

A Leica brochure was just delivered to my mailbox. Beautifully produced for the commercial part. Wonderful detail of the system. Mediocre sample images, sample layout and bad prepress color work. Blocked shadows, bad color, no detail.