[POLL] Tab Targeting vs Action Combat

Comments

For now I would be lying if I said I prefer Action combat over Tab targetting combat. However, I do think there is a lot more potential for action combat games, problem is the execution of a lot of the action combat mmos have been terrible.

First and quite possibly one of the most important things, raids can work with games with action combat BUT they have to be designed differently. A raid encounter in an action mmo should not be designed in the same way as they are in a tab targeted raid encounter. If I were to design a raid for an action mmo, it would rely a lot more on set pieces, clever level design and large enemy groups over bosses with inflated life bars, I seriously doubt an action game can do those anywhere near as well as a tab target game. Bosses in action games can be fun, but I havent seen a single action game handle a 10v1 boss fight well.

Another thing is that an action game imo needs a high lethality, if I am beating on your average mob for over 30 seconds and he has still not dropped dead, then the combat is not very good. Of course, some enemies can take over 30 seconds to kill, but the majority should be faster to defeat than that. That said, they can not be killed too fast either, there needs to be a balance, and from my experience, a lot of action mmos had this balance way off.

Also, what does easy mode cc and mostly effortless control over enemies have to do with tactics and strategy? From my experience they make combat no more tactical, if anything, I find that they have the opposite effect on tactics, no need to predict enemy moves, no need for formations, no risk vs reward, just spam ccs and outlast the foes.

Originally posted by CalmOceansIf I wanted action combat I would play a console game with a controller where I could mash buttons.Tab targeting allows for tactics like crowd control and splitting techniques that simply aren't possible during action zergfests.

My sentiments exactly.

I will also add that I want my "character" to have better dexterity than *I* do

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR

Originally posted by MaroxadWhatever fits the rest of the game better.For now I would be lying if I said I prefer Action combat over Tab targetting combat. However, I do think there is a lot more potential for action combat games, problem is the execution of a lot of the action combat mmos have been terrible.First and quite possibly one of the most important things, raids can work with games with action combat BUT they have to be designed differently. A raid encounter in an action mmo should not be designed in the same way as they are in a tab targeted raid encounter. If I were to design a raid for an action mmo, it would rely a lot more on set pieces, clever level design and large enemy groups over bosses with inflated life bars, I seriously doubt an action game can do those anywhere near as well as a tab target game. Bosses in action games can be fun, but I havent seen a single action game handle a 10v1 boss fight well.Another thing is that an action game imo needs a high lethality, if I am beating on your average mob for over 30 seconds and he has still not dropped dead, then the combat is not very good. Of course, some enemies can take over 30 seconds to kill, but the majority should be faster to defeat than that. That said, they can not be killed too fast either, there needs to be a balance, and from my experience, a lot of action mmos had this balance way off.Also, what does easy mode cc and mostly effortless control over enemies have to do with tactics and strategy? From my experience they make combat no more tactical, if anything, I find that they have the opposite effect on tactics, no need to predict enemy moves, no need for formations, no risk vs reward, just spam ccs and outlast the foes.

if you are using the holy trinity in an action based game what mechanics could you not do in a action game you could do in a tab target game.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

Originally posted by fs23otmAt first I thought tab-targetting, but then i really thought about it and choose action combat.Since playing GW2, Tera, NW.... I tried going back to a tab target game... and it was horribly slow un interesting combat. Then I thought back to may fav game and class.... EQ and the Bard.... sure it was tab target... but playing a bard was like playing an action combat game before there was action combat mmo's. So many thing to do and manage. So Action Combat is my fav, and I can't go back.

Twisting songs with a bard had nothing to do with "action combat", though. It sure felt more "actiony", but not what I consider action combat. It was playing 3-4 songs (5 if you had a flawless connection) that buffed your party, debuffed the MOB, did damage over time, healed over time, replenished mana over time, what have you. There was no aiming at an enemy and swinging your instrument

Action combat I see more as having a gazillion (ok, a few different) abilities or attacks and aiming with your mouse, dancing around during battles. I could be wrong, but that is how I see it.

It was tricky when soloing, but auto-attack was a Godsend while twisting your songs. Then, maybe you tried switching between weapons and instruments if you felt "in the zone"

It was more "busy" than standing there with auto-attack engaged and throwing in a kick when it cooled down or bash if you had a shield. Personally, I am a fan of auto-attack. I am old school that way

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR

And as far as i know the only way companies did chose tab targeting over action was because of the tech and the lag back then..it was near impossible to have real action combat in mmo back then...well we are in better condition technically the fast internet is here to near everyone so that old system has to go away.

And skill wise its harder to actually actively dodge than a RNG roll of your gear do it for you. Roots and all kinds of CC can be very nicely on action combat if not even better.

If Blizzard could she would have done it in WoW...but its too old too different core wise and they wont invest so much money to change it at this point..same as the graphic engine... BUT their new gen game Titan gonna have Action combat..

Originally posted by BahamutKaiserThe reason I don't like tab targetting is because it naturally subtracts the use of AoE attacks on optimal positions where you can hit more foes instead of directly at a single target. But honestly, a system can be designed to do both... even though I feel tab targetting makes it a little to easy to aquire your target though.

What about ground targeted AoE attacks?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR

Originally posted by AlBQuirkyOriginally posted by BahamutKaiserThe reason I don't like tab targetting is because it naturally subtracts the use of AoE attacks on optimal positions where you can hit more foes instead of directly at a single target. But honestly, a system can be designed to do both... even though I feel tab targetting makes it a little to easy to aquire your target though.

What about ground targeted AoE attacks?

As soon as you start targetting the ground your adding action gameplay, that's exactly what I was talking about, attacking an ideal location instead of a specific target within reach of other foes.

If you look at the old GW original they had a lot of AoEs, but they all had to be cast on a foe, it made many of them really ineffective because if it was DoT or if the foe wasn't centeralized to a group it would be serve it's purpose. You may even want to cast it on a location with no foes as a deturant.

Beside that, I think one of the fundamental flaws with Action MMOs coming out is that they assume that because they are catering to an action oreinted crowd, they have to have constant imput. It would actually help a lot of Action games, and moreso, games which are looking for a more hybrid audience if the amount of button mashing was seperated into intervals, and effective approach, positioning, and battle pulse were used to allow for a more tactically involved experience instead of a dynasty warrior, thrash and bash experience. That kind of gameplay is amusing in solo play, but when your not thrashing NPCs, it looks silly, with 40 ppl doing the equivalent of bankai and super saiyan and just flooding the screen with nonstop offense.

There's almost nothing tab targetting can do better than free targetting outside of simply make the game easier, the fact that most action games go overboard with the offensive and eliminate a lot of other elements has little to do with the versatility of manual targetting. By using several targetting assistance methods like lock on (which basically includes everything a tab system offers in an action game), window targetting, and auto targetting, as well as changing the pace of combat for more tactical attention, You can serve anyone who has any interest in tabbing and most everything inbetween.

I hate to see division over something that's had a solution for over 15 years...

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

Originally posted by Aerowynif you are using the holy trinity in an action based game what mechanics could you not do in a action game you could do in a tab target game.

While you could implement more or less anything to an action mmo, I am not sure everything can be very well implemented. Action mmos can implement the holy trinity, but I find that the trinity doesnt work very well with the action nature of the game.

Point is, an action mmorpg would have to be done carefully. Just tacking on free aim, manual attacks and dodging to current encounter design philosophies and mechanics doesnt get you anywhere.

Originally posted by BahamutKaiserOriginally posted by AlBQuirkyOriginally posted by BahamutKaiserThe reason I don't like tab targetting is because it naturally subtracts the use of AoE attacks on optimal positions where you can hit more foes instead of directly at a single target. But honestly, a system can be designed to do both... even though I feel tab targetting makes it a little to easy to aquire your target though.

What about ground targeted AoE attacks?As soon as you start targetting the ground your adding action gameplay, that's exactly what I was talking about, attacking an ideal location instead of a specific target within reach of other foes.I agree here. Once that mouse gets engaged for targeting, it becomes more "actiony."

Originally posted by BahamutKaiserThere's almost nothing tab targetting can do better than free targetting outside of simply make the game easier, the fact that most action games go overboard with the offensive and eliminate a lot of other elements has little to do with the versatility of manual targetting. By using several targetting assistance methods like lock on (which basically includes everything a tab system offers in an action game), window targetting, and auto targetting, as well as changing the pace of combat for more tactical attention, You can serve anyone who has any interest in tabbing and most everything inbetween.

I don't know. It seems like games with tab-targeting have more group wipes than action games. Maybe I am wrong here. It could also be attributed to "information sources" outside of the game that helps keep action games groups alive better?

From my personal experience, action game fights are quick. They are over and done with maybe 80% of the time. Tab targeting fights seem to take longer and make use of a wider range of abilities.

I never have gotten over seeing a Wizard or Cleric in EQ sitting down in the middle of a fight. LOL They were switching out spells or meditating to regain used mana, but I always shook my head at first

I think that the "strategy" in action games are pretty much in the minds of the players. It really does not matter what you do when, with a very few exceptions. Does it make a huge difference if I fire my arrows through that wall of flame? Not really.

On the other hand, when the 7 orcs are mezzed and I use an AoE, it makes a HUGE difference on the outcome of the fight.

Originally posted by BahamutKaiserI hate to see division over something that's had a solution for over 15 years...

It would be cool to not have divisions. Action combat and tab-targeting combat are 2 very different playstyles. I don't believe there is a way to "bring them together" for those of us on the far ends of the feature.

Simply stated, I want my character to be more coordinated than me. Can action combat do this?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR

Originally posted by MaroxadOriginally posted by Aerowynif you are using the holy trinity in an action based game what mechanics could you not do in a action game you could do in a tab target game.

While you could implement more or less anything to an action mmo, I am not sure everything can be very well implemented. Action mmos can implement the holy trinity, but I find that the trinity doesnt work very well with the action nature of the game.

Point is, an action mmorpg would have to be done carefully. Just tacking on free aim, manual attacks and dodging to current encounter design philosophies and mechanics doesnt get you anywhere.

Tera does action and the holy trinity decently imho.. the encounters they created are just geared toward the action combat.. but nothing is preventing them from making raid content that rivals anything in any tab target game if they wanted to.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

DCUO is another game that does trinity-based combat very well (though technically it's 4 with Damage, Tank, Heal, and Controller). I prefer action combat a little more than tab-targeting but I enjoy both. I do think that the debate over which requires more skill is one that lacks a real answer. The two types are similar but require subtly different skillsets. And there's no reason to think that action combat can't be strategic or that their raids must be simplistic. Again, I think DCUO does a fair job of pushing the boundaries of what an action-combat raid can be in terms of positioning, mechanics, strategy, and all the rest.

Originally posted by CalmOceansIf I wanted action combat I would play a console game with a controller where I could mash buttons.Tab targeting allows for tactics like crowd control and splitting techniques that simply aren't possible during action zergfests.

What's console gaming got to do with it? Do you think non-action MMORPGs are the only genre on PC? PC gaming has had action combat games for decades.

And even if we ignored that nonse, are you seriously implying that there's no other way to create deep tactical gameplay than tab-targeting? I'm guessing you've never played any action game at a high level of play (or perhaps only played bad action games,) because that's the only situation where you wouldn't think there's a lot of tactical depth to an action game.

"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

Originally posted by CalmOceansOriginally posted by QuirhidOriginally posted by CalmOceansIf I wanted action combat I would play a console game with a controller where I could mash buttons.Tab targeting allows for tactics like crowd control and splitting techniques that simply aren't possible during action zergfests.

Don't be a fool. Action combat can and has just as much tactics, CC and everything else than any other method of combat. It only looks like a button mash to someone who doesn't understand what is happening.

You're letting your ignorance show.

What are you even talking about. Show me one game where you need to split a single mob out of a pack of 10 that doesn't use tab targeting.

Show me one.

Explain to me how you would even select a target in a game without targeting....how would that even work??

I've played non-target games like Vindictus, strategy is non-existent in those games, they're button combo mashfests zerg galore solofests and it's a direct result of their console combat style.

You need to play more games if you can't see how it works. And more Vindictus too, it seems. You are clearly very ingrained in your preferred combat-style.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky

Originally posted by CalmOceansI've looked at some Tera raids, and they're action raids like Vindictus. I see tail swipes, action mashing and general zerging. I hoped to see something different but it's the same zerg raiding that other games have.

So basically, you saw one action game's gameplay and you're prepared to make sweeping generalizations about the potential depth of all action games based on that?

Seems legit.

Summing up Street Fighter as (paraphrased) "a bunch of combos and button-bashing" certainly doesn't make you sound like any kind of expert on action games.

"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

Originally posted by GrayGhost79Depends for me. Some games I like the more tactical and strategic Action Combat. Some games I prefered the more laid back Tab targeting approach. You also forgot to add a hybrid option to the poll.

I was thinking the exact same thing :]

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

Why no 'a little of both' option? I like the action combat but having to click a button to see the mouse is immersion breaking. Alternatively classic tab-target WoW style combat I find emensely boring. For me the best is a mix of both, Age of Conan or Guild Wars 2 style. Very action oriented, no need to even tab, not just hitting 1, 2, 3 (well you can in GW2 but you suck if you do so lol) but still allowing me to use my mouse without having to break my immersion to 'turn it on'.

Originally posted by DamonVileOriginally posted by CalmOceansOriginally posted by Quirhid

Don't be a fool. Action combat can and has just as much tactics, CC and everything else than any other method of combat. It only looks like a button mash to someone who doesn't understand what is happening.You're letting your ignorance show.

What are you even talking about. Show me one game where you need to split a single mob out of a pack of 10 that doesn't use tab targeting.

Show me one.

Explain to me how you would even select a target in a game without targeting....how would that even work??

I've played non-target games like Vindictus, strategy is non-existent in those games, they're button combo mashfests zerg galore solofests and it's a direct result of their console combat style.

You have to do it all the time in tera boss fights. Boss fights often have multiple mobs and you have to pull one out whie killing the rest ect. I don't know about vindictus never played it but games like tera are not button mashers ( well I guess they are if you don't knwo what you're doing but then so are tab target mmos). They have targets like any mmo you just can't lock on and fire smart rounds over your shoulder at them. You have to actually aim.

Keep in mind action combat is very new to mmos. So it's still evolving. tab targeting hasn't really changed that much other than say guild wars2 which....is just evolving into action combat.

Evolving is the wrong term to use. Switching to action combat is the correct way to put it. Evolving denotes tab target combat as older and inferior when it is merely just a different choice in mechanics.