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Inventory of Couples Practicing Karezza Together

Submitted by hotspring on Wed, 2010-07-07 16:11

It would be neat to take a tally of how many couples regularly sharing on this site have both people on board. We could try to summarize what we've learned, ie, what's possible when both people are participating. We could compile a list of questions for our partners who are not posting and share the answers so that its a more representative picture. So far I see: (and I've not been reading much in the forum lately, so apologies to anyone if I've blatantly overlooked you)

Marnia and Gary
Neil and his Wife
Hotspring and Tender of the Fire
Sid and his Lovely Woman
Amari and Her Hunk?

I'm sure I'm missing someone else crucial. And I'm sure that besides Marnia and Gary and maybe Neil and his wife, most couples trying this out haven't totally foregone orgasm, but are experimenting readily with these ideas.

We could also make an inventory of people in partnerships without a willing partner and brainstorm ways to encourage them to be a bit more experimental.

I guess it make sense that singles seek the help on the forum the most...after all, when do you really need your tribe???

But for couples it's clearly different. I tend to hear from couples privately. *sigh*

First, in a relationship you have the comfort of each other, so less "need," unless, like me, you feel compelled to share. Second, there's a feeling of protectiveness toward one's partner that impedes sharing intimate details about lovemaking. It can feel strange to share intimate details "on behalf of" a loved one, as the experience belongs to you both, and is part of a sort of "sacred space."

This is why I'm always particularly grateful for the couples who find a way to share. Their willingness helps inspire others.

Another 'karezza man' wrote me privately today about his and his wife's experience. I've asked him to share here. Hope he does.

My partner and I are not at 100% karezza yet, our goal is to find the balance for us. For myself, having experienced something I don't yet have words for, but that is not an "O", during Karezza, I am leaning towards more karezza, for me. O's, in contrast are almost painfully concentrated.

My partner is not there, yet. I think one has to spend a fair amount of time staying in an aroused but calm zone to learn how to relax and really know what it feels like.

We are definately experiencing a honeymoon resurgence because of the daily "like it or not" bonding activities.

We overdid it during the 3 day weekend, to the point that I lost count....

Quizure

"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

Great Quizure. I guess maybe I'm just looking to see which couples have both trying to forego orgasm most of the time, which I realize is not the same as the relaxed practice of Karezza, tho its a start.

Marnia and Gary
Neil and his Wife
Hotspring and Tender of the Fire
Sid and his Lovely Woman
Amari and Her Hunk?
Quizure and Her Honey
TsugaK and Wildflower

I've run into this before - it's probably why nearly all the men I've been with are either bi, or gay. And even amoung the ones I had crushes on in grade school, and highschool, I had a more then 50% 'bi/gay' selection rate.

Quizure

"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

This is the first time I have encountered this term. My girlfriend and I have been practicing love making were she does orgasm but I do not. I do not totally abstain from having orgasms. My girlfriend will bring me to an orgasm about one out every ten times we make love. This release allows me to begin another long cycle of non- orgasmic sex with her. We both find this very deeply intimate and erotic. After she has had an orgasm or two we lie together quietly for a long time. One of the most beautiful feeling experiences for us is when I withdraw my still erect penis from her. It is difficult to describe why but we share a very deep sexual love by my not having cum. She will gently touch me with her finger tips for a half hour or so after I have withdrawn from her. In the morning if we have time she will again tease my penis with her hands. This continues for several days or a few weeks

Thank for your reply. One aspect about my girlfriend that applies to our love making is that her sexual history has not been all that positive. For her to have a patient lover with whom she can fully enjoy sexual love and easily orgasm is new for her and I believe that our way of making love, her freely allowing herself the pleasure of many orgasms, while I withhold my own, is very good for her, and for both of us at this point. As time passes we may or may not evolve towards a more pure form of Karezza.

On the other hand, as you may have seen in other threads, for both sexes, a partner's orgasm can be so thrilling that it, too, becomes a hook. So it's a delicate balance for the partner who is content with less frequent orgasm to make the "space" for a lover to experiment with a more relaxed approach when the time comes. As things unfold, please share any insights with us.

Good insight! I have wondered about my girlfriend's orgasms becoming a kind of "hook" for me. We are using this week as a kind rest and recovery time after an intense several days of love making. We both feel a deep sense of peacefulness I wish for us to carry with us as we begin making love again this weekend, and I my 5th week since my last orgasm. I do find myself though being very focused on the thought of holding her in my arms while she is feeling another wonderful orgasm.

As I have written my girlfriend and I practice love making were she has orgasms while I do not. We are both very happy with this arrangement. It has been interesting for she and I to discuss her feelings about my not experiencing orgasms with her. These range from her enjoyment of teasing me both physically verbally and visually to her freedom to enjoy our love making and her own orgasms without having to consider my own specific pleasure of orgasm to a deep feeling of sexual love that is endemic to our approach. I would love to hear any thoughts and experiences from women regarding love making with non-orgasmic men

Quizure, there seem to be many definitions of Karezza out there, including "Power Karezza". I like Marnia's definition and that is what we practice -- "very gentle, and with very low arousal". We both love it!

My wife, or as I call her quite affectionately -- "Sweetie" is not interested in the intracacies or whys or hows of the practice. Ironically, even though she had never heard of it, it was she who guided me through the rough spots. It was she who told me over and over to quit thinking and just relax and enjoy the moment. She realizes orgasm effects me especially badly and does not do things to turn up the heat, nor does she get overly aroused as well. She has seen the site once or twice, but this is not her thing.

That being said, I also would be interested in seeing her responses to certain questions. She does not apply lablels to the practice. To her, it is all just our intimate lifestyle as we choose to practice it. I leave it like that, as it works.

[My comments] It purports to be about karezza, but it's kind of a mish-mash, more "Male Continence" than "Karezza." Anyway, Bass is in his 90s, but dear. And his book may be good to share with men, even though it has a lot of internal inconsistencies. It's short, and focuses a lot of energy on making men "studs not duds." It's about giving women lots of orgasms...in hopes that the women will "outgrow" them. Hmmm....that's kinda like giving porn addicts more porn to help them to stop masturbating. *chuckle*

Here are some of my favorite bits, or bits that confirm what we’ve all been learning:

p. 6

It soon becomes a competition in Karezza: who is going to please the other more. The partners are working on it all the time.

p. 7

A man who uses Karezza increases his virility, and can easier attract a woman… It all works subconsciously. As he desires her, she develops a desire for him.

P 10

Give up 3 seconds [orgasm], and you could have all the sex you wanted, any time, all day long. Never get tired of it, and never get tired of the woman involved.

When I was into Standard Sex, every time I had an orgasm, I wouldn’t go out for a few weeks afterwards.

p. 25 [Coolidge Effect]

The man who practices Karezza finds his greatest satisfaction in remaining with the same woman, who gets to know all the actions that he prefers that pleasure him most. He never gets tired of her or bored with her because of the great compatibility they have created. Also, the practice of Karezza which includes his conservation of semen, actually guarantees that his lust for her will never diminish. …This is the nature of the act and the effect the conservation of semen has on a man. I’ve seen this happen in practically every man.

P. 28

[Thinks women don’t need to worry about learning this until they feel like it because they aren’t losing fluids. Does not understand that the effects occur at a brain chemical level and shift women’s perception, even if they show up differently (on average) than in men.]

p 30

Avoid spicy food.

P. 31

When I started out with Karezza in my thirties, this startled me at first: We might be a whole group of nice men at a bar, many of them better looking than me, but why was I often the only one who had luck, and was invited home with a woman? Later I understood it was because I had been saving my semen for energy reasons, and that this could have a powerful effect on the particular woman I was interested in.

p. 53-4

The Comfort Technique (for use after sex without ejaculation)

After sex, go to a bathroom and lean over a sink and pour cold water of the penis and testicles for a minute or two.

“This removed any sensitivity, frustration and congestion in the sexual region, helping the retained semen to be [p. 54] reabsorbed by the body and lymph. This made a man feel perfectly normal and great afterward, just as if he had no sex at all, but with all the benefits retained. … I have used it many times myself and found it to be the quickest and most infallible way to feel good and free from all tension after sex. … If you don’t cool down you can become obsessive about sex, at least for a limited time afterwards. … But once I used the cold water it calmed me down after hot sex.

Often when I went too close to orgasm and stopped without ejaculation, and if the sex ended there, I would occasionally experience sensitivity in my sexual region and testicles, commonly called “lover’s nuts” or “blueballs”. If I did nothing it would always gradually diminish and disappear within 3 hours. If I used the cold water treatment, it would disappear immediately and completely.

P 55

After years of Karezza, I gradually learned to stay in the calmer waters more and more, which proved to be more satisfying ultimately, with much less of a tendency to feel any discomfort or congestion afterward.

[Meditation for sublimation after sex]

While completely relaxed, start to watch your breathing, without any control over your normal breathing. Imagine that you are breathing into and out of the heart. Feel the breath coming into the heart by itself naturally with no control on your part whatsoever, then feel it going out by itself. You are simply observing the breathing process happening by itself in a state of perfect relaxation with no action on your part and no goal in mind. … If your mind wanders just gently and lovingly bring it back.

Using this meditation I would usually arrive at an ecstatic state and remain there for two hours, after which I gradually returned to my usual ordinary state.

P 56

[Start by SLOWLY practicing self-control during masturbation…for ½ and hour, then 45 minutes, then 1 hour.]

Should a man tell a woman what he is trying to do? Yes. … He may say, e.g., “my aim is to learn to control, not to have the orgasm, so you don’t have to worry about getting pregnant,” which his important for a woman. And “I want to be able to make you happy, and I want to be able to be happy with you. I want you to love me,” and similar workings. It is likely she will be thrilled to hear this. …”

In traditional Tantra you move slowly. You may stop and meditate, and start moving again when the erection goes down. You move just enough to excite it up, just a little. … It is not steady hot sex. It is a purer area, like a tranquil meditation. It is like looking at a beautiful scene, slow and peaceful.

p. 62 [COOLIDGE]

If all peak orgasms are avoided, there is no satiation. A man will never say, "oh, I am totally satisfied, it is finished." … He never gets tired, he always enjoys it. And the longer he waits between orgasms, and the longer the sex session, the more exciting it is.

p.67

There are many books which say that a woman’s clitoris always has to be stimulated. In my mind, these guys are "dunnos," they know nothing. … [They are not talking about ] real sex. Not about the real feeling sex, the pure beingness. … What they talk about is the "bullvana," what is good for the bulls. Getting a rough-course sex, that is what they understand. But the subtle beautiful floating sex, they don’t know anything about. For them that is like a strange dream; they have no concept of what it is.

…

So, first I taught my students how to control themselves. If they were premature ejaculators I told them to give up salt, hot peppers, spices, etc. Especially not to eat before sex, because then they easily lose control. Too much blood goes to the stomach after eating, and there is not enough blood going to the sex organs.

p. 67

Then I also asked them to move slowly, and move in semi-circles and sideways. Then the man will have control. … But if he goes all the way in and out, there is tremendous friction, too much friction, and he could lose control.

Once you get her in bed, then you take over, and then eventually, she follows. And when she follows, everything happens naturally. Women follow right away usually. Unless they are perverted, e.g., from using a vibrator. If you come across a thing like that kind of perversion, you can’t relate to it.

P71

Possibly, if you go too close to the orgasm, too much excitation could cause a little loss of energy. This is what Bhagwan Rajneesh has said. But there is no loss of hormones; instead it is more like a nervous excitement loss.

[THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH THE EXCESS DOPAMINE THEORY]

P 79 [KAREZZA AS PSYCHOTHERAPY chapter]

Karezza is psychotherapeutic, psychological and psycho-spiritual. … Lust is blind, but Karezza sex is like one big meditation.

Will this transformation of psyche happen to everybody who practices Energy-Karezza? Yes, it will happen whether they like it or not. The very fact that they are avoiding the orgasm-explosion will make them go through these other experiences. …They are thrown into another level, even if they are not looking for it. They have to go through it.

[COOLIDGE]

In standard sex, after the peak orgasm, the lust is over. It is finished. The man doesn’t retain the feeling of the woman. In other words, when the sex is over, the woman disappears from his mind. Since there is no more sex drive, there is no way he can relate to her anymore. …[p. 80] and with it she is gone.

P 80

But if he doesn’t have the peak orgasm, he is always thinking about her. If he uses the cold water, he will comfortable physically. But even if he has used cold water, he can bring the sex feelings back in a few seconds. Just by touching her body. … The cold water removes discomfort, but it does not remove the memory and the enjoyment, and the attachment, and the feeling of love and respect for her and all womanhood.

P 81

Before going to a spiritual path, before attempting Tantra or advanced Karezza, average men and women first have to get saturated with sex. They are not saturated yet, they want lust and sexual pleasure. They use all the beautiful phrases, when they talk about love, but what they are talking about arises from unfulfilled desires, which they want to experience. Men and women really want lust, and to experience it fully. They have never had the satisfaction of full completion.

[This assumes hot sex will fulfill them, and that seeking more and more [with porn…] won’t tarnish their perceptions of the opposite sex.]

Wilhelm Reich spent a whole lifetime talking about the perfect orgasm, but he went about it the wrong way, in my mind. He was looking for relief, trying to get it through sex, but this was wrong. He should instead have been looking for release from subconscious repressions, without losing energy. The perfect orgasm Reich was looking for was the valley orgasm. He didn’t know that.

…
Reich said that it is the perfect orgasm that is the key to happiness. He was looking for the spiritual aspects of sex, and he thought he would get it in the physical sex orgasm. That’s the mistake he made. …

But it was a mistake. There is no perfect peak orgasm. That was the illusion. Instead, the ultimate goal to strive towards is the valley orgasm. [Actually...you can't "strive toward" something that happens only by NOT striving. You can, however, hold it as a goal.]

p.82

First let women have all the good sex necessary, to release them from all their bondage, the subconscious frustrations women often get into – the insecurities, the anger at men, the fear of sex, the thinking that sex is dirty and vicious, and similar ideas.

When women get the subconscious cleared, they begin to like themselves, and feel that they are loved and secure, that they are meaningful human beings. Women begin to love themselves, feel attractive and become happy. Then they can fit into society and work better, and be successful.

How long in time would it take? I think, if you have a woman who is inhibited, and you get a man to practice Karezza with her, I estimate that in one year’s time she will be a new woman, maybe even less. That’s intensive psychotherapy. Sex is the greatest psychotherapy of all.

The man wouldn’t need to think about this. He would only function normally, like an animal. Like a normal natural animal. Without need of using his brain. …

In Karezza, you only use your brain for one thing, to control the orgasms, to withhold the ejaculation – to avoid it. You control yourself by telling your willpower: stop it, withhold the orgasm. The intellect directs the will. When you are using the will, you are using either force of the beingness, or the personality.

Let’s say that a man was going out with a sophisticated woman, difficult to please. What would he do? The answer: just use Karezza, function normally, and this woman would most likely open up and become a new person, happy and appreciative.

p. 83

When there are no inhibitions she becomes her pure self – a real woman. When she becomes a real woman, her expressions become total. Women don’t know what this is, if they have never had this experience. What is happening is too big for the body alone, so it moves into the mind, and the emotions, and then spreads to the spiritual levels. It is too big to be carried just in a little part of the body.

Men and women first have to go through the physical state, and then gradually through the emotional and the mental state, and at last to the spiritual state.

p. 85

A man is forced to learn sexual self-control early. A woman is not forced, she has a choice as to when she wants to start. But the earlier she begins to control her orgasms, the better for her, the higher pleasure she will experience.

But it can be difficult to convince women about this. [Bass assumes that satiation will be experienced through lust and sexual pleasure.]

P86-87

Principles listed

If under 35 years of age – gradually decrease ejaculations from once a day to once a week to once a month, etc. The older you are, the quicker you should cut down your ejaculations. [p. 88] Remember, the fewer ejaculations you have, the more sex you will get. You are not giving up sex, instead you are gaining an enormous amount of sex. Your choice is between 3 seconds of orgasm – or 4 hours of sexual bliss.

The final goal is to avoid all ejaculations for elimination of all sexual dysfunction and to maximize pleasure, health, virility and longevity.

If a man is on the spiritual path, from the age of 40 onward, he should avoid all orgasms and ejaculations of semen.

p. 89

Those [women] who are on the spiritual path can use sex as a meditation in ecstasy. This can be followed by a formal meditation to raise their awakened sexual energy to the higher spiritual centers.

p. 110

[Proposes that karezza can cure addiction.]

If you have a sexual partner, why would you need drugs? … It’s like a miracle cure mentally.

p. 111

If a man and a woman are on the verge of divorce, would you recommend Karezza?

If a couple starts Karezza, then their whole relationship will change. I have seen this happen over and over.

p. 112

Now it is like she is meeting him for the first time. … When he starts with Karezza and starts controlling himself, then she starts enjoying the sex more. All of a sudden she sees him in a different light. All the earlier memories and experiences she had with him begin to disappear, because the new experience is different….

Most men and women have a semi-secure but boring relationship. Couples may not know they are unhappy. If you have not experienced Karezza, how can you factor that into the equation? … [p. 113] Karezza takes all the boredom out of sex. When they start Karezza everything changes. Now she loves him and can’t do enough for him, and he is very happy with her, always buying her presents. He is talking nice to her, being very polite, because he is so happy. He feels very good, he has energy, sex is always available and he never gets tired of sex. ….

There is no depletion, so he can have sex as often as he wants. … They love themselves, they respect themselves. If a man loves a woman, she feels complete. She feels secure. … So with Karezza, the whole psychology changes completely.

… They will look better, become slim and trim, have more energy and become healthier.

If Karezza is so exceptional, why isn’t it common already now?

Well, you have to know about it. We are not at the highest point of civilization, so people don’t know about it. When we reach the highest point, everybody will be doing Karezza. … Existing books about Karezza are few and far between.

p. 114

And if you don’t know enough about the topic, you may not always succeed. … The average man would probably take a woman out, have a big meal at a restaurant, which then interferes with Karezza…..

p. 117

You say that Karezza is a solution for the overpopulation problem?
…
If people learn Karezza, with postponed (or no) ejaculations, then they can get even higher pleasure. Increased pleasure without the severe penalty of large families, which they can’t afford, and which lead eventually to over populaion and the destruction of the world.

Karezza could have an impact on prostitution and sex slavery?

When people are full of love, they want to help others, they want to share beautiful things, they don’t wan to damage other people, they don’t want to destroy nature in a greedy way.

p. 120

How would you want to summarize your life with Karezza?

To me, a life with Karezza and Tantra, it is like living a God-like beautiful, ecstatic , blissful existence, beyond imagination. And practicing ordinary sex is like living in a sewer, in comparison.

In the future I think Karezza will become very common, probably a lifelong practice for most.

Hello everyone, my name is Darryl and I just found this site recently. Logged on and created a account a couple of days ago. My wife (Annabelle) and I have been on the non-orgasmic journey for about 12 years now. Its truly wonderful to find other folks practicing this or at least dialoguing about it. Feels like we have been sailing alone on the ocean with no one in sight for years, although what's been going on on our boat sure has been sweet. Great to meet other like minded souls.

Our story. About 12 years ago a friend gave me a book called "The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity" In the chapter on sex it recommend non-ejaculation for the man. I thought, mmm, sounds a little strange, but why not give it a try. As Annabelle says about things sexual, "I'll give anything a try, at least once" So there we were giving it a try and somewhere right in the middle, after it had gone on longer than usual, we kind of looked at each other, like, ummm, when's it over. Right there, on the spot, some big light bulbs went off in my head, like, 'oh my god, I've been the one deciding when its over all these years and never realized it. Wonder how Annabelle feels about that, down inside. Gee, given the chance, I wonder where she might go if I wasn't ending things?' I could sense right then that some new and wonderful possibilities were possible and we were off on a new journey.

Of course it took a few weeks to break certain established patterns and ideas. Annabelle was concerned about whether she was satisfying me. Its it interesting how orgasm is the mark of whether we are pleasuring our partners. Also she told me, some what sheepishly, that having me ejaculate was an effective way to get rid of me when she wanted her own space, since I would loose interest in her afterward. As a male it was hard to have this new sort of goaless/directionless sex. Where are we going here? The male psyche likes direction. This was so amorphous, kind of floaty.

Once we got over the shift to a new sexual paradigm we never looked back. I could probably say for myself this may be the single most valuable discovery I have made in my entire life. It transformed my relationship with Annabelle. I never tire of her and pretty much can never get enough of her. Also, I appreciate and enjoy her feminine way much more than when I was ejaculating. The idea of orgasm is totally of no interest. Its hard to even remember that I use to like doing that. I feel much more rooted in my masculine being. Women used to be a kind of aggravation in a way. I would fluctuate between the extremes of strong desire to 'you're driving me nuts.' Now I feel like I drink in feminine energy wherever I go.

A few years ago Annabelle decided she wasn't interested in orgasming either and this took us to a whole other level. We pretty much engage in the Karezza embrace every morning. We run our own business beside our house so getting up early for work is not necessary. At 55 my relationship with Annabelle and our sex life is better than ever. If anyone told me that with two teenage boys, a business, and 27 years being together, that I would be engaging sexually with my wife almost every day, I would never have believed them. Here's to Karezza!!

Marnia, I have recently read Stanley Bass's book and although there was a lot of good nuggets there, I agree its a real mush-mash. Still worth it though.

One other thing we have noticed is that, as Annabelle says, Karezza sex seems to be the fountain of youth. We both swear that Annabelle continues to physically look more beautiful and younger. I figure that because I am in love with her and enjoy her beauty every day I may be biased but friends that haven't seen her in a while say things like, I look younger and more beautiful than I when I saw you last. She gets this a lot. Recently a friend was talking with Annabelle saying something like you look about the same age as me and she was in her early 30's, Annabelle is 51. Has anyone else noticed Karezza having this affect? Granted we have been doing this for 12 years and it took a while for this to happen.

I look forward to staying in touch with you all and continuing this dialog. I cant say if Annabelle will write anything or not. Here job requires her to stare into a screen and at the end of the day she says she doesn't want anymore time in front of a computer. I do tell her everything I write and whats going on, I even read some of the post to her. She's here is spirit at least and I'm sure will make comments that I will happy convey. Who, knows, if you ask her a question specifically she may respond.

If I am ever fortunate enough to be with my sweet lover on a daily basis, I guarantee we will follow along your path. It sounds like you and your wife are a couple of high school sweethearts! Take care and keep enjoying each other!

While I'm 52 myself, I and my partner are only recently experimenting with Karezza. I think the fountain of youth isn't in the cards for me but my partner is younger, and so he may still have a chance to retain more of his youth. Your years of experience should be invaluable to those of us who are newer to this. As such, I have questions. :)

We both have difficulty getting our heads around the "amorphous" nature of this, and don't know when to stop. We're both thinking "if we're not going for anything, and orgasm is 'off the table' - when do we stop - 2 minutes or 5 minutes or an hour? - how much time is too little, how much is enough?" At this point, we've stopped when one of us fell asleep, when one or both of us got too close to having and/or actually has an unintentional orgasm, or when we got hungry, or had something else we had to do. Watching the clock kind of kills the process a bit. With regular sex, we knew we could get from nothing to done in 5 minutes, if the mood struck us. We don't have the luxury of working next door, so we have to fit it into a schedule of some kind. How much time each morning would you estimate you spend?

Since you originally read a taoist book on it, do you follow a more spiritual path - meditation, energy movement type of practice with Karezza? I've started reading Mantuk's two books, but with all the warnings about not doing it without a teacher, I'm not so sure it's the way for us to go at my age.

I do have a question for Annabelle, specifically if she's currently pre, peri or post menopasual?

Quizure

"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

My wife and I went through the "when do we stop" stuff just a few months back. Unless we are very tired, it is weird, but a feeling just comes over us, like we are coming out of a trance. That is how we know. It is truly, and I can't say this enough, an amazing journey!

We did try that at one point early on. We would say lets connect for 15 minutes. Well, that did not work. We always went longer. We quickly just went until we got uncomfortable for some reason, fell asleep, etc. Eventually, and this took only a few weeks, we noticed that we kind of went into a zone. Best way to put it. It is blissful and satisfying. When we come out of this, we are done. We sometimes linger longer, of course, but "Karezza" is done. Does that help? As my wife said, don't think about it so much. Just enjoy it and relax into it. Let your feelings and your body be your guide.

In another post, Annabelle said this:

I can't quite explain it but there is a difference and it is related to there being no goal, nothing to achieve. Almost Zen. Instead of knowing where you are going, you follow the thread of the experience, which may take you somewhere else, and usually does if given enough time.
Annabelle

Ahhh, there's the difficulty then, the big if - ' if given enough time'. We will have to find a way to make the time on week nights where we can, and we usually have hours of morning time on the weekends - but for us, weekday mornings are just pain impossible. The most I can manage for weekdays is to set the first alarm a little early, and snuggle him while he sleeps, which is what I started doing 2.5 months ago. Even that helps, at least for me.

But I think we're lucky to have the time we do, and we will find our groove, it just might take us longer.

I can't imagine how folks who have different hours - one works nights, one days, or both work and also have small children, or older kids with their array of after school sports, and church or other activities, would ever find enough open ended time to make this work.

Quizure

"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

I think she was referring to total cumulative attempts, not a set or necessarily long time per occurrence. Does that make sense? Trust me, I have two teenagers. We have crazy hours and a hectic lifestyle. Given that, we are making it work. We bond more than we connect, trust me! Most nights we are just darn tired! We have found Sunday mornings work best, but it just happens. That is unusual for us, as we never did it in the mornings before.

Time has been less of an issue with us because of the way we have structured our lives. Like I said we run our own business from our home and have home schooled our kids, now 17 & 19. We dont drive anywhere for work and have to get ready for the school bus. I completely sympathize with couples trying Karezza in our modern culture. It seems work and school ( if you have kids) dominates.

I cant say enough for morning time, when you can, which is when we practice Karezza almost exclusively. You've had a good nights sleep, hopefully the stresses of the previous day are washed clean. You're sweet partner is the first thing you see and snuggling up to their warm body as you wake up sets the tone, at least for us it does. Karezza in the morning puts a real skip in my step and starts the day off in upbeat place. I think Ive seen a number of places where morning sexual time is recommended. There's just something about morning Karezza time.

If you're willing for a little planning and structure morning time is doable. We get up around 6am and dont have to get out of bed until around 8. Yes, I know that many folks cant be getting out of bed at 8am on a week day. Even in ones hectic lives I believe part of making time for Karezza is a mind set. In our culture engaging sexually is viewed as something you do when the mood strikes you or when you have time. I think the idea of thinking "practice" around sexuality is a different mind set from the way we have been brought up. Like, meditating, yoga, exercise, and other disciplines, we structure our lives to set aside time for them. Thinking this way about Karezza can take some getting used too. Like making sure one gets to bed early and sets the alarm to rise early, we may do that for exercise but for sex? seems so.... planned.

I feel a little sheepish about saying this and sounding a little preachy as we are unusual with our luxury of time. I remember what it used to be like trying to squeeze all the things I needed to do in a day. I know how hard it can be. If nothing else, give morning Karezza time a try when you can.

Im going to say it again, its so wonderful to have other like minded folks to converse and share with about this.

We also like mornings. But what I really want to say is that, in my experience, karezza creates abundance. Not just material abundance, but also other luxuries...like time together. Try being consistent with it for an extended period when you can, and see if you notice that you miraculously find your schedules permit more lovemaking. Then see if you notice a change when you go back to conventional sex.

Our inner state does indeed seem to have an influence on our experience of our external experience. The Daoists called it "being in the Dao," or "flow" of life. This state makes it seem like time is your friend rather than your foe, and careful cultivation of sexual energy is taught as one way of achieving that.

and I have found time to be one of the greatest luxuries in life. I also find the sacred space Karezza creates, also creates a desire to hold that space dear, and that translates into life choices that support this, sometimes you dont realize you're even choosing this. Example, we have a small manufacturing business that has been fairly successful. It started out in a separate building on our property. As it grew I could see it requiring us to move to a local industrial park. Without really thinking it through I started to scale back advertising and discouraged taking on new distributors. I just had a feeling more business wasn't what I wanted. Later I realized the business choices I was making were about keeping and increasing the quality of the sexual energy we had cultivated and no amount of money or new business was worth sacrificing for this. Karezza comes first. The more you do it and realize its value, the more you hold space for it and often not fully know you're even doing it.

My partner just isn't a morning person. He isn't even remotely functional until 8am, at the very earliest ((between 7:30 and 8, the *only* thing he can manage is feeding the cat and shaving and dressing himself.). On the weekends, he's not awake until 10 - which is his natural cycle. Our jobs, which we've been at 22 and 11 years, have a start time requirement, and we come in as late as we're allowed. We talked about this today - I even suggested that what we needed was a mini-motor home to drive to work, and that we could take a *long* feast every day. We know that we have to find a way to get off of the soul-sucking, 24/7 pager equipped, high-speed IT-hamster wheel that we're on.

Pondering the possibilities....

Quizure

"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

Quizure, my man and I have a similar dynamic. He's barely functional before 8 am. After that he can manage to feed the dog and make himself a cup of coffee, buck naked because he can't even manage to put his clothes on, which doesn't bother me one bit! I especially love the way his chest hair curves down to his bellybutton and makes a little v-shaped point when hes' hunched over in the morning. The man's so lanky and tall it takes a huge amount of energy to keep him upright. Once he's fuelled up with caffeine he's a strong buck. Thanks to coffee and karezza he can do what men in this country have rarely done consistently for almost 70 years, before agribusiness and machines took over: bucking bales of hay. I have found a lot of compassion today for men as I watched them throw heavy bales of hay onto the truckbed while I lazed about, a lucky woman, listening to Fela Kuti in the cab while I drove the truck inch by inch, watching them sweat. God I love men, and none no more than my own!

A tangent . . . . (geez I'm so in love).

Anyhow my question was what, if any, tips you have to me as an older woman dating a younger man. My man's 9 years younger than me and I want to age as gracefully as possible. (Sheeit, I'm not even 32 yet, but my god, my man only just turned 23 - still he's by far the most mature and loving man I've ever encountered. I am lucky as all hell, just don't want to sabotage with concerns of ageing.)

Be his best friend. No one cares how old their best friend is, ever. Did you ever know anyone who gave up their best friend because they got 'older'?

Grey hair? Who cares. If you don't want wrinkles, stay out of the sun, and don't drink alcohol. If it doesn't matter, play in the sun and drink the wine! I personally have to stay out of the sun since I burn easily, even with sun screen. Cook good food together and for each other.

Doing what you're doing sounds great to me.

Quizure

Because life is not about who you were, it is about who you are becoming.

Ahh, but I waited till 51 to start. On the other hand, if it does work at all, I can think of lots of women that would be more likely to consider it. You might have to move your book to the beauty section of the bookstore!

Quizure

Because life is not about who you were, it is about who you are becoming.

Yeahhhhh! So good to hear this. Your story is invaluable, and very inspiring. If there are any other such enlightened couples out there please please share your story. Out of the woodwork, folks! How can we make this more mainstream if those people who know the benefits don't speak up? I think it is possible to share the benefits without being too expicit or going into overly private details. Because, clearly, its the spiritual aspect that is really coming to the foreground in these relationships, and the spiritual has to express itself in some form - a new way of making love.

I'm inspired to renew my commitment to this path, for one. Thanks for all the work you've done!

You have no idea how wonderful it is to post our story and actually have people relate to it. I cant tell you how many times I have suggested considering Karezza type sex and I get blank looks, silence, head shaking. When I have posted other places my post is either the thread killer or ends up being just skipped over. Here, not only is there a positive response but you're all welcoming and supportive, gotta love it!

Quizure, Its interesting about the Taoist approach. I have read both of Mantak Chia's books and found all the warnings somewhat amusing. We were probably into non-orgasmic sex for a couple of years before I got those books. We had just been feeling and finding our way without any problems. I couldnt relate to the warnings not to mention he seem to make it way too complicated. Get together, with feeling of course, have sex, dont orgasm, go with what feels good and enjoy, pretty simple. Thats been our approach. After those warnings I kept looking for something to be concerned about, but unless feeling great is a problem, I havent found any issues. Every once in a great while I might get a mild case of "blue balls" and thats easily remedied. The other ingredient I have observed is time. It takes time to really build and find a flow, years really. I dont think there's any short cut around this. In fact I think its a big plus as after 12 years we're still growing and moving to new places using Karezza. We may plateau for a while and then we're off again into new territory.

I would say Annabelle is somewhere between peri and post menopausal. I say this because every once in a great while now she will have a hot flash, but basically it all done. This is another area I think Karezza has had an effect. The whole menopausal process was unbelievably smooth. The physical part was easy and there was really no emotional stuff. It was more like a mild blip. Annabelle feels strongly the the ease of menopause physically and emotionally is due to years of this practice..... Oops, it looks like I'm going to eat my words. Annabelle just read this thread and says she is going to post for herself now. I had this suspicion that when I said she most likely wouldnt post Id be eating crow.

About, when's it over, my approach, especially in the early days, is to let Annabelle decide. Quite frankly in the sexual department I think the woman is the wise one. In my opinion the feminine has the better sense of the flow and where to go. My rule is, I go as long as Annabelle wants unless we have some form of time constraints. I do agree with Neil as well, even though I let her rule you can feel when its sort of done, although "done" never really comes.

I could go on for hours but got to go make dinner. More later I'm sure. This is great!
Darryl

Menopause has been a very interesting experience, almost a non experience, so much so that I never really kept track. I would say when I was about 45 my menses started getting more spread out. Within a year or two they just disappeared. I have had, and still have sporadic hot flashes, nothing intense, just the feeling of being warmer than I know I usually am. I always attributed this ease to the way we are sexually. Quizure- why do you ask?

First I want to thank you both for being here! Darryl - Crows are one of my favorite birds. Please don't eat them!

I'm 52, so I'm right at the 'right age' to head fully into menopause any month now - when I was 45, I thought I was in peri-menopause - terrible periods - I always felt a 'quart low' (that's how I could laugh about it), and the hot flashes kept me from sleeping. I finally couldn't stand it anymore, and my doctor put me on hormones for 1 year, but they said I wasn't peri yet. The one year of hormones seemed to help a lot, and I haven't gone back on them. Recently they have started to be more erratic - I'll go 50 days between one time, and only 30 the next. The first period after we started experimenting with Karezza was really the most comfortable / light I've had in years, but since we weren't 100% successful at avoiding orgasms, I'm hesitant to say that it helped. I do know that I haven't had a single hot-flash in at least 2 months. It could have just been a fluke. But it sounds like you're an example in favor of it helping.

This helps me be resolved to set a goal to avoid orgasm entirely for at least 2 cycles.

Quizure

"There's this place in me where your fingerprints still rest, your kisses still linger, and your whispers softly echo. It's the place where a part of you will forever be a part of me." - Gretchen Kemp

I guess you could say that my "normal" "modus operandi" is Karrezza like even though I do play at the edge occasionally. I have been non-orgasmic for some time now and I "get it" and all the benefits that result from engaging in this practice. In spite of a number of discussions with my lovely wife on the potential benefits of Karrezza I have not been able to convince her to try it yet - she understands and has seen first hand the positive changes in me as a result of this (and really wants me to continue on this path) but totally enjoys being orgasmic and says that since she doesn't experience the negative stuff I do there is no real reason for her to give them up. Anyone have any suggestions on how I could motivate her to at least try it?

It sounds like your wife is enjoying her new found level of sexual expression provided by your not orgasming. When you dont orgasm you're holding space for her so she can go where she wants for as long as she wants. Its not over until she says it is. Its understandable that she may not be keen on turning right around and start managing her orgasms just when she's cutting loose to a whole new level. If we continue the car analogy, its like you have given her the keys to the car, saying "here honey, its all yours, drive as you please, I'll take the passenger seat", and thats wonderful. Makes sense it may be a while before she's interested in shift gears, or should I say down shifting. It took my wife years before she wanted to join me in non-orgasmic lovemaking. Now that she has though, she would never want to go back. You may just have to wait.

With that said, how about saying something like, "honey, how about for every 5 times of rockem, sockem toe curling orgasmic sex we try one session of this karezza stuff", lets see what its really like". The experience of karezza is very hard to explain but if she's willing to try it every now and again there's a good chance it will grow on her.

Just curious. Did Annabelle use this gradual method? We found that "gradual" was a bit tricky because of the hidden cycle of orgasm. Karezza didn't register as as satisfying while our brains were still under the influence of a recent orgasm. This can keep its benefits somewhat invisible if one goes back and forth.

I'd love to be wrong about this. Anyone else have any thoughts on how "back and forth" works for experimenting with karezza? Have I been too pessimistic?

Yes, Annabelle did use this gradual method, more like an observational method. She basically started noticing the difference between orgasming and not, and concluded that "not" was better. It was gradual, being that even after she made the decision it still took a little time to change habits, probably over the course of a few weeks. Let me add this to the mix. I had been practicing non-orgasmic sex for years so she didnt have a partner that was struggling not to orgasm, making it all that harder to make the change. I assume if one partner gets it down, so to speak, its easier for the second one to come on board using the gradual method. Its makes sense that it would be easier than two people trying this method at the same time. Also, I wonder if the fact that I wasn't orgasming had any energetic effects on Annabelle's system, making it easier for her to change.

Also, I wasnt suggesting she stop orgasming. My non-orgasmic origins came from the Taoist traditions which focuses on the man not orgasming and doesnt even suggest the woman should. It was completely her choice. It was after she stopped that I noticed the difference.

Here's another thought. Is it easier for the man to get control and then have the woman follow or the other way around? I did not find that Annabelle choosing to orgasm or not had any pull, one way or another, on my choice not to. Maybe in the first few months, but after that, no.

We're you and Gary trying to move out of the orgasm cycle at the same time or had one of you done it ahead of the other? Seems like there could be a number of factors at play here.

and encouraging. I had been experimenting for years before I met Gary. I was a slow learner, but that's how I figured out that compromise didn't work well.

So I was "on board" and very careful (for me) not to push him to orgasm. Although I did once give him a severe case of blue balls with some fancy foreplay action. Not wise. Fortunately, he had just been through a romance where he could watch the post-O behavior in a woman, so that helped curb some of his past habits, too.

Like you, I didn't "force" him. I told him that if we could start with three weeks of the practice, I'd be delighted. And that if it wasn't working for him, we could switch to conventional sex. I don't think force works in this area.

Fortunately, he saw some benefits in just that short a time. Other improvements took longer.

I think a gradual approach might work well in an established relationship where one partner is on board. New relationships, however, may be less stable and require more consistency. Dunno.

I do believe you have it right. As a caring and considerate lover I always made sure my wife achieved orgasm regularly (if she wanted to) when I was still having orgasms of my own and I always put her first (so to speak) to insure her satisfaction. Yes, chivalry is alive and well in my household. I have always believed that real men put their wives first and I have never been sorry to embrace this philosophy. Anything I gave my wife was returned tenfold so I am actually the lucky one.

I realized soon after I began experimenting with becoming non-orgasmic myself that as I began having less my lovely wife began having more. As you say she is reveling in a new level of sexual expression and taking full advantage of the "space" I am now capable of "holding" for her. Even at our worst right now we are at a great place in our relationship [tanz] [tanz] with lots of love, affection, and great sex so no complaints - but being the pro-active kind of guy I am I will keep seeking opportunities to make it even better - so I am going to Play Monty Hall and "lets make a deal" and see if I can sell her on the one Karezza for five rockem sockem sessions as you suggest and see where it goes.

Sounds like my wife and I are where you and and Annabelle were in your past Darryl - and it likewise may also take some time for my wife to "shift gears". Since our situations appear much alike I am interested in what finally prompted the transition for Annabelle as this knowledge could be quite valuable to us in the future.
Regards,
Virgil

One of the things you have to your advantage is the knowledge and information about Karezza. As far as I'm aware Marnia is the first person that has publicly espoused the benefits of both men and women practicing non-orgasmic lovemaking since Alice Stockholm wrote her book about a hundred years ago. Knowledge is power and this site is a wealth of information to assist people in this practice.

Annabelle and I were feeling our way in the dark with no information to assist us, at least not that we were aware of. I think Marnia's first book was out at the time though. As I said in another post, all I had to work with was Taoist sexual practices that really just focus on the man.

I asked Annabelle your question, she looked at me with a long pause, then said, " I have absolutely no idea what prompted me" There you have it from the horses mouth. Then we talked a bit and she said early on, probably in the first year after I stopped orgasming, she gave it a try a few times but wasnt drawn to continue. When she did finally try again, she said she was just being experimental and then noticed the difference and decided to stick with it.

Again, we didnt have any information to work with around her not orgasming and karezza. If we had I believe we would have stuck with it more diligently looking for a difference.

Yes, you do sound a lot like us in the beginning. I think the information you have about karezza and support you have here will make the difference a lot sooner than it did for us.

I was seeking a solution/fix to the negative effects orgasm had on me and stumbled about in the dark for some time with no real direction. The crazy thing about this is that this condition is so prevalent that most do not even realize the effects for what they are - and pass off the resulting traits/ behaviors as an inherent part of their demeanor or personality. I gravitated toward traditional Tao and Tantric practice as it was the only thing I could find that at least somewhat talked to what I was experiencing. And the traditional Tao is directed toward male enlightenment and energy conservation - and in many cases touted various techniques to "steal" energy from women during the sex act so the man finished at a higher energy state than he started on his path to "enlightenment". I have seen lots of information on conserving male energy but never heard of anyone actively promoting non - orgasmic sex for women until I was lucky enough to find Marnia and this site. Most of the information out there is on how to get non-orgasmic women to get to the point they can actually have orgasms.

Becoming non-orgasmic was the best thing I ever did - the positive effects on me were profound - but I will admit to still being on the fence as far as my wife is concerned. Orgasm does not seem to affect her negatively and she enjoys them so much - so why not? I am very interested in experimenting with Karezza just to see what happens but have not and will not push her into this - and that is why I continue to ask lots of questions and seek feedback. Still lots to learn and this is a great resource/community to learn from.

My lover and I practiced what you all are talking about over the weekend--he decided he would not orgasm (upfront) and we decided to just go with the flow and see what would happen.

Well, there is something about that type of relaxed "movement" that makes it almost impossible for me to *not* orgasm...so I know what you all are saying and it was very enjoyable (from my feminine perspective). I can see how it would be hard for your wives to give that up.

Anyway! I'm still gobsmacked by the whole experience and he seemed to enjoy it, too...we went two days and on the third morning (he had to leave for work and home), he gave in to his orgasm...but with no regrets about holding back the prior two days because he said it was very enjoyable to him.

has said that since I became non-orgasmic I bring more energy to our joining and our activity time now lasts as long as she wants it to. This allows her to fully relax into the experience and enjoy all the subtle interplay of the ebb and flow of all the vital energy we both bring to play. She has the same "problem" you do in that the relaxed state along with all the slow and gentle movements almost always insures a mind bending experience and lots of orgasms for her.

You two practice what my girlfriend and I do- she has orgasms I do not. What you wrote- it was impossible for you not to orgasm is exactly what my lover experiences. She finds it so exciting and relaxing to know that I will not ejaculate during our love making that she finds it SO easy to have beautiful orgasms. If your lover is up to it he should try to withhold his orgasm for longer than two days. We found that after an initial rush of excitement that a deep sense of peacefulness took over both of us during the weeks following as I continued to not orgasm. Not long ago I would never have imagined loving the thought of not ejaculating in a woman! But we have arrived at a place of deep sexual happiness.

I am thankful for this site and for people like you who share their experiences~~deep sexual happiness is a good place to be!

If my lover and I are ever able to be together longer than two/three days, who knows what we will do together...we only get to see each other on the weekends mostly, but I always know there will be very deep intimacy and love and bonding and there are always surprises and I mostly know I am very much in love with a beautiful man who gives me so much and I can only hope I give him back what he deserves.

So wonderful to be able to say anything and do anything and be the person you are with the person you love.

Thanks for your reply. Our situations are different, you two only being able to be together on the weekends. For us our sexual lives are a present part of each day, which includes sometimes a spoken or implied reference by my girlfriend on her enjoyment of my not having had an orgasm for a few weeks and how that has increased her own sexual pleasure. If you had a few moments I wonder if you could write about your own thoughts on how you enjoy your lover's withholding of his orgasm. I wold love to read them to my girlfriend.

This weekend when my lover arrived (after playing a very funny practical joke on me), he declared he wanted to "karezza" again this weekend (to him, it's a verb, not a noun, lol! love that).

He told me no matter what, do not let him have an orgasm all weekend. And I was very excited about that because what happens is he never "leaves" me...we continue to have a very strong sexual chemistry that feels like a magnetic pull the entire time he is here.

When we make love, there is something about the slowness and the stillness that makes all of my nerve endings come alive. Because we are not working toward his orgasm, I feel that I can breathe normally, taking long, deep breaths. I do not create tension in my body (my lower back, especially, stays very loose) and so when I finally do have an orgasm, it feels as though it starts at my feet and works its way up my entire body, all the way to my scalp. And it lasts so long!! I usually end up laughing and crying at the same time.

He is amazed that he doesn't have any negative repercussions (i.e., blue balls!) and we're not sure why that is, but it is wonderful.

So I hope my description gives what I am feeling justice. Although, it's one of those intangible things and so hard to put into words! Take care!~

Thank you. This is quite a beautiful description and I will read it to my lover tonight. It is timely also since last night I slipped up and could not stop myself from having an orgasm shortly after entering her. She was not angry but certainly dissapointed especially since I had been away for a few days and she was looking forward to us having a long lovemaking session. We did lose that feeling that you mentioned of my never leaving her in terms of the sexual chemistry between us as I withheld from orgasm over the last several weeks. In the morning I felt a bit sad but we had a good talk about what happened and reaffirmed our commitment to continue with our approach to love making. She spoke clearly to me of how she has fully embraced the experience of the pleasure of orgasm being reserved for herself while the sexual excitement she feels about my not feeling the specific pleasure of my own orgasm has deepened greatly over the last weeks.

P.S. I'm happy to hear your lover does not not have problematic effects of withholding his orgasm. I feel lucky that I also do not experience problems and for being able to easily not orgasm during long lovemaking with my girlfriend. Until last night of course!

that separations begin to undo the power of daily bonding behaviors. So upon reunion, it's good to start with a night (or two) of "just snuggling." Believe it or not, your control will be better, not worse, even though you are delaying intercourse.