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I promised to post these several days ago - but got sidetracked. These two bottles are from the same Florida collector from whom I got the incised faceted bottle.

I have named them Batman and Robin

And I have questions! There are three bat bottles listed in "Chinese Snuff Bottles of the Silica or Quartz Group" but they all have monkey faces, not this more stylized face. They also are all placed on the bottle at an angle, not straight on as this one is. So I am wondering if this bottle would be classified as a "bat bottle?"

And then I don't even know where to start with questions about Robin! Has anyone seen anything like him? Ideas on age? Pin says he is Suan Ni - the fifth son of the Dragon King.

Finally, I am sorry to be hogging the forum lately with all my posts - so I promise to stop hogging the board after this post and give others a chance to get a word in edgewise!

I owned the bat bottle in pale brown quartz, illustrated on p.80, #208 in the Silica & Quartz book, from Oct.1980 to 1993 (#39 in my 1987 catalogue). It was from the Galia Baylin collection prior to the 1980 Sotheby's NYC auction.

Dear Joey, if these are modern then somebody please tell me where I can buy more of them!!!I would buy Batman and Robin's for all my friends and family - they would make the most wonderful gifts ever! And would probably turn more people on to snuff bottle collecting.

I was hoping to hear from Tom on these as well to get his opinion!

Jungle Jas and Adrian, a good choice - the workmanship on Robin is unlike anything I have ever seen. It is a spectacular bottle! And look at how well hollowed he is!

I have to say that I am with Joey those two bottles are modern .You might not know how many craftsmans out there in China who can make wonderful stone bottles better than this. How many these kind of bottles you want? I can be the middle man. :

If you can't find the same examples, it doesn't mean that those bottles are right and old, There is no connection between them. I have a quite few of bottles I can share with you that they are one kind of bottles themselves, but they are totally modern. So the way that you judging bottles were wrong. You should look the bottles themselves. There are some good signs for the first bottle, like the mouth and foot and well done, but you need to see more signs which are not right, for example how the bat was craved, the decoration of the other side, the traditional chinese art have to follow something, the desecration won't come out from nowhere.

I remember George shared some wonderful info regarding the carving of Jade with us recently. read through it, it might also help.

Please don't take the some of our negative comments as offense. I believe that after 5 years, when you look back those posts, you will know notice that you learned more from those negative comments.

Best,

Steven

attached Pls find some modern bottles which has much better quality than what you have over there, If you want to commission some batman bottles I would love to connect you with the craftman.

But if what Steven is saying is correct - then how do we know it's not modern too? Unless you have provenance all the way back to when it was made, then chances are it's also modern since it can apparently be so easily duplicated.

Steven, the bottles you shared are nice, but they are simple designs. There is skill involved, but very little artistry.

I can see where my bat bottle could be replicated by a modern artist. There isn't much artistry involved. But replicating Robin or Pin's bat bottle would be something altogether different. It would take more than skill - it would take an artist. It also took inspiration to come up with the design.

I realize there are artists out there now who could duplicate Robin. But at what cost? The time and effort involved would be so significant that I don't think they would be able to charge enough to recoup their time.

If however, there are artists this skilled willing to work for dirt cheap, then for me it becomes a question of what's the point?

If every single bottle out of stone can be duplicated - then they are all worthless and therefore not worth collecting unless you have rock solid provenance to go with your rock.

I'm aggravated because there seems to be no focus on the beauty, the art form, no appreciation for individuality. Bottles must be carbon copies of something known and even then there are claims that it's fake. Apparently the value of a bottle only depends on how old it is. That is really discouraging.

Please take close look at the carving of two Bat's wings on two different bottles, you might be able to find out why I said the carving on your bottle is not right.

Altho I have not seen the details of the carving of the bottle Pin shared, but the overall feeling looks right to me.

I have never said your bottles were made recently, it could be 20-30 yrs old. Do you know what is the average income of a family in China back to 30 years ago. I would say less than $500, I mean its annual income for the whole family, Do you still think its not worth time and effort to make something look artistry by western's eyes.

The modern bottles I shared will cost roughly $2000.00 or even more, since the materials are more expensive now, and in order to make any this quality bottles, lots of time and labor need to be involved. the labor cost is 10 times higher than 30 yrs ago.

Sorry that you feel discouraging because we are focus on the date of the bottles, If you stated it as a modern bottle, then we would more focus on the beauty of the bottle itself.

I am actually not against modern bottles, but we are on a snuff bottle Forum, I thought people want to know the date of their bottles, plus the value, If we don't know the date, how can we put the value on? the antiques have their artistry value plus the historical value while the modern ones only have artistry value. And I thought that you want to know the truth of the bottles not only want to hear the praise, if we all have positive comments, how can you learn from the mistakes?

First, Happy Father's Day (if this applies to you). Since you are not in the US, you probably don't celebrate this holiday but thought I would mention it anyway.

I have taken all pictures of Robin offline because I don't want anyone to copy it.

I have tried to be as objective as possible on everything you have said about all of my bottles - the DEZ, the dating of the XCC bottles, the possibility that Batman is modern, but I am drawing the line at Robin. I don't believe he is modern. I think making him required the talent and time only afforded to those working under commission. I have been studying the old statues of Nuan Si and think I am on the right track. See the roof ornaments from the forbidden city.

So far, the proof just isn't there for me that this was made in the last 20-30 years. However, there is proof that statues of this kind were made earlier, and it makes sense to me that bottles would be commissioned to represent the sons of the dragon.

So on this point without more convincing proof, I cannot agree with you - and I don't consider buying him a mistake.

I guess I'll direct it to you, since you've mentioned a familiarity with modern craftsmen.How are modern bottles being produced today? Are CNC's used? Are 3D lasers used to measure and transfer information from older bottles? Then fine details finished by craftsmen?

So far, the proof just isn't there for me that this was made in the last 20-30 years. However, there is proof that statues of this kind were made earlier, and it makes sense to me that bottles would be commissioned to represent the sons of the dragon.

So on this point without more convincing proof, I cannot agree with you - and I don't consider buying him a mistake.

Not sure why you removed the pics of Robin, but by examining the carving maybe we can see some grinding/abrasive clues that will convince it carved Late 20th century.

And I am glad that you have done so much research on the subject matter, well done. But copying an 1000 yrs old status doesn't make your bottle 100 yrs old. Please look close on the carving of your bottles, compare with the carving on the old bottles, also compare the carving on relatively new bottles, you should be tell eventually.

There are so many factors to be considered in order to judge a snuff bottle, if one or two factors are right doesn't make the bottle right.

Yes, Put the bottle away for a few of yrs, you might agree with me on what I have said above by the time.