One thing about the Roman Catholic Church is that they are good at boiling things down. However this often seems to end up in rather mechanical recipes. "If you read the bible for thirty minutes, you receive one plenary indulgence" etc.

This may have been useful in the Dark Ages when people needed simple formulations to get them going. Even though the RCC fancies themselves as more suitable to the modern age than we Orthodox are ( they keep coming up with new innovative idea's). Our mystical traditions and bent may be a bit harder for people to grasp at first.

The good news is that you really don't need to "understand" mystical formulations and practices, you only need to do them. First you do, then you understand. Orthodoxy is transfomrative. With the RCC legalistic/mechanical approach, you need to understand how things "work".

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.

One thing about the Roman Catholic Church is that they are good at boiling things down. However this often seems to end up in rather mechanical recipes. "If you read the bible for thirty minutes, you receive one plenary indulgence" etc.

This may have been useful in the Dark Ages when people needed simple formulations to get them going. Even though the RCC fancies themselves as more suitable to the modern age than we Orthodox are ( they keep coming up with new innovative idea's). Our mystical traditions and bent may be a bit harder for people to grasp at first.

The good news is that you really don't need to "understand" mystical formulations and practices, you only need to do them. First you do, then you understand. Orthodoxy is transfomrative. With the RCC legalistic/mechanical approach, you need to understand how things "work".

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.

People often misrepresent the faiths of others in order to defent their own. As we alll know, this is called a "stawman arguement" and I think that if we are all honest with ourselves, we will realize that we have all done it. The best thing that we can do is point out misconceptions as you have here (bravo) and hope that when we do, others are willing to listen.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.

While you certainly may have a point, and I hope I understand it, may I kindly point that the issue she raised is fundamentally theological and fundamentally different between East and West.

One of the errors of Blessed Augustine was conclusion that man can grow closer to God through his reason, his intellect. Since not all of us have the same ability of learning, it would follow that those more intelligent / educated can come closer to God compared to those less intelligent / educated.

Therefore, you ended with Doctors of the Church, something we don't have.

Our position is expressed by St. Maximos the Confessor - On Knowledge. Essentially, knowledge of God cannot grow through study, but through prayer. Prayer is the single activity that brings us closer to God. Therefore, it follows that those more intelligent / educated have no advantage compared to those less intelligent / educated.

But I agree with you, there is no need to point to differences she would, hopefully, feel by her own in her own time.

You are receiving a warning for encouraging debate in the Convert Forum. Please be vigilant about guarding against this in future. The Convert Forum is a place for seekers and converts to ask questions pertaining to the Orthodox faith, and not a place for debate. Thank you. If you disagree with this warning, please address your concerns to a Global Moderator.

Pravoslavbob

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

One of the errors of Blessed Augustine was conclusion that man can grow closer to God through his reason, his intellect. Since not all of us have the same ability of learning, it would follow that those more intelligent / educated can come closer to God compared to those less intelligent / educated.

But of course you can, if such reason is not divorced from the practice of faith. St. Anselm called theology "faith seeking understanding."

I would also point out that intellectual activities are just one way of growing closer to God. There are many other ways---which is emphasized in a person's life depends on the gifts he is given. Look at the Franciscans and Dominicans---both mendicant orders, both formed around the same time, but with VERY different charisms.

Some of the greatest saints in the Church knew little of formal theology---St. Therese of Lisieux, one of the great mystics known for her "Little Way" approach to theosis, St. Catherine of Siena, another---both Doctors of the Church.

Then there are other Doctors who had a great theological education but who are most recognized for their mystical and spiritual works---think of St. John of the Cross and his Dark Night of the Soul and The Spiritual Canticle or St. Francis de Sales and his Introduction to the Devout Life.

Even St. Thomas Aquinas, for all his cerebral egghead reputation in the East, was a mystic whose hymns are still sung today by Catholics the world over before the Blessed Sacrament. He wrote the liturgy for the Feast of Corpus Christi, celebrated by your Western-Rite Orthodox brethren.

If you want modern examples, consider St. Josemaria Escriva, founder of Opus Dei, and his classic of lay spirituality, The Way.

Our position is expressed by St. Maximos the Confessor - On Knowledge. Essentially, knowledge of God cannot grow through study, but through prayer. Prayer is the single activity that brings us closer to God. Therefore, it follows that those more intelligent / educated have no advantage compared to those less intelligent / educated.

We would agree but with the understanding that study, properly approached, is a form of prayer.

BTW, Pope St. Martin I, who was arrested together with St. Maximos for condemning Monotheletism and exonerated with him at the Third Council of Constantinople, had his feast day yesterday.

You have been warned about prostelyzing Roman Catholicism here on the Convert Forum before. This is an Orthodox Christian Convert forum. You have been warned not to mislead here at oc.net when you refer to the Roman Catholic Church as "the church" and this includes whole oc.net website about referring to the Roman Catholic Church as "the church"-- Please if you are talking about the Roman Catholic Church write "The Roman Catholic Church" and do not write simply "the church." Please refrain from these actions in the future on the Convert Forum and elsewhere on oc.net. -username! section moderator

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.

It's okay to say the word "Orthodox", you know. We know that you don't regard the Orthodox Church as being truly Orthodox. In the same way, we don't regard the Roman Church as being truly Catholic. But for the sake of courtesy, we refer to you in this way, because this is what you like to be called. Maybe you could consider doing the same thing for us. (I am standing by to receive your reply wherein you are taken aback and indignantly and solemnly affirm that the only reason why you use the acronym "EO" in almost every single post to refer to the Orthodox is because it is a convenient short form. )

If you want modern examples, consider St. Josemaria Escriva, founder of Opus Dei, and his classic of lay spirituality, The Way.

Good one. Yes, if I were a proponent of Roman Catholicsim, I would be sure to draw attention to an organisation that is in no way considered extreme or controversial by anyone, an organisation simply beyond reproach. That way, my argument would appear to be that much more balanced and well-considered.

One thing about the Roman Catholic Church is that they are good at boiling things down. However this often seems to end up in rather mechanical recipes. "If you read the bible for thirty minutes, you receive one plenary indulgence" etc.

This may have been useful in the Dark Ages when people needed simple formulations to get them going. Even though the RCC fancies themselves as more suitable to the modern age than we Orthodox are ( they keep coming up with new innovative idea's). Our mystical traditions and bent may be a bit harder for people to grasp at first.

The good news is that you really don't need to "understand" mystical formulations and practices, you only need to do them. First you do, then you understand. Orthodoxy is transfomrative. With the RCC legalistic/mechanical approach, you need to understand how things "work".

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.

Do you revice one plenary indulgence for every half hour that you read scripture? I am certain I heard this on EWTN ( Which I watch a lot). I only use this as an example of an overly mechanical approach. If I am wrong and no such practice really exists, then I certainly apologize.

I think the metaphor that depicts the ethos of RCC like a "court of law" is well established. You do this and get that. Reason is applied to Mysteries. Contracts struck. To me it smacks of a sort of recipe-ism. But maybe that is just me.

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls. Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.

Well, as Papist said, we are called to love God with all our minds (as well as the other parts), which does make love of God a mental exercise to some degree. However, I agree with you that loving God is not merely a mental exercise.

...Essentially, knowledge of God cannot grow through study, but through prayer. ...

We would agree but with the understanding that study, properly approached, is a form of prayer.

We won't agree about anything, except that we are in a deep disagreement. The difference, although may seem subtle, is actually fundamental, and lies in the root of the differences between Orthodox and West.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls. Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.

It is indeed a mental exercise, just as it is an exercize of the heart and of the the body. It is an exercise of our entire being.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls. Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.

Well, as Papist said, we are called to love God with all our minds (as well as the other parts), which does make love of God a mental exercise to some degree. However, I agree with you that loving God is not merely a mental exercise.

And we do not at all disagree! The problem here are some EO who make such rude caricatures of Catholic faith and spirituality. My God, the descriptions on here do not at all describe my interior life (or that of other serious Catholics I know) or the faith as propounded by the Church.

The saints and works I mentioned above are just some illustrating examples.

BTW, Pravoslav, before you go Dan Brown and make a crack at St. Josemaria and Opus Dei, I suggest you actually read The Way and actually meet Opus Dei members. Go on a weekend retreat with them (I just did this past weekend, in fact).

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

And we do not at all disagree! The problem here are some EO who make such rude caricatures of Catholic faith and spirituality.

It is a shame when people go off with half-informed (or less) statements about either of our churches; even though I disagree with many RCC positions, I still do not think that people should be spouting lies or half-truths.

My God, the descriptions on here do not at all describe my interior life (or that of other serious Catholics I know) or the faith as propounded by the Church.

You mean "Roman Church," or "Roman Catholic Church." Remember - It's an Orthodox board, with a great majority of the members being Orthodox, so simple phrases like "the Church" automatically mean "the Orthodox Church."

You mean "Roman Church," or "Roman Catholic Church." Remember - It's an Orthodox board, with a great majority of the members being Orthodox, so simple phrases like "the Church" automatically mean "the Orthodox Church."

I can't speak for Luberti, but if I happen to refer to the Catholic Church as "The Church" here on this board, I would not be doing so to offend the Orthodox. Because I do believe that the Catholic Church is "The Church", I refer to it such out of habbit. It probably wouldn't even be a conscience thing.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

You mean "Roman Church," or "Roman Catholic Church." Remember - It's an Orthodox board, with a great majority of the members being Orthodox, so simple phrases like "the Church" automatically mean "the Orthodox Church."

but if I happen to refer to the Catholic Church as "The Church" here on this board, I would not be doing so to offend the Orthodox. Because I do believe that the Catholic Church is "The Church", I refer to it such out of habbit. It probably wouldn't even be a conscience thing.

If you want a green or a yellow or maybe even another colour of dot, then doing this "out of habit" might be a good way to get one.

Lubeltri,According to our records, you have actually been warned about this "slip" on at least 6 occasions, and indeed it was part of the reason for your most recent warning. Yet you did it again while under this very warning.After some discussion with the moderators and admins, it has been decided that the next time you submit a post which refers to anything but the Orthodox Church as "The Church", you will be immediately muted.I hope this is clear.George(Global Moderator)

« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 10:36:18 PM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life"....

...or even "Heart".

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

If you want a green or a yellow or maybe even another colour of dot, then doing this "out of habit" might be a good way to get one.

Great way to treat your guests and to demonstrate Christian Charity....not.And, BTW, I am getting really tired of the anti-Luberti show. He demonstrates nothing but charity and patience (unlike I did in the past), yet he gets used for target practice, as is demonstrated by the ridiculous warnings on this thread. Stuff that is not even an issue is being made an issue. He doesn't insult the Orthodox faith. He doesn't try to convert. He is just a voice for what is and is not Catholicism when the Catholic Church is being misrepresented. Its really frustrating to watch you all pick on him.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 05:28:55 PM by Papist »

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".

The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 05:30:30 PM by Papist »

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".

It's the same as libido. I mean, libido is part of our personality, too.

Yet, these two do differ.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".

The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .

« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 09:26:50 PM by Marc1152 »

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

...Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

I'm just pointing that, apart from "heart", "mind" and "soul", our being is consisted of "libido", too.

How does your reasoning of "loving God by our entire being" or "glorify God by our entire being" stand with that regard?

It means that we use this sex drive as a means to glorify God. In marriage we glorify God by using the sex drive to move us towards the sexual union which unites a man and wife and causes procreation as God intended. Ouside fo marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".

The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .

Does acquiring a mind of faith mean that we stop thinking and asking questions? To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".

The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .

Does acquiring a mind of faith mean that we stop thinking and asking questions? To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

Perhaps, but the passage you cited probably wasn't intended to mean what you need it to mean. You can develop an internal logic for most anything

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Hasn't this been the approach of the saints that encourage us the study the Scriptures and the Fathers along with praxis? Didn't these saints utilize their illumined intellects to provide us with great, edifying expositions on the Faith?

I find nothing wrong with a holistic approach to living the Christian life. I don't see the problem.

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Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. ~Philippians 4:8; St Paul

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".

The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .

Does acquiring a mind of faith mean that we stop thinking and asking questions? To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

Perhaps, but the passage you cited probably wasn't intended to mean what you need it to mean. You can develop an internal logic for most anything

You sure can. For example a person can create an internal logic to support the idea that we should just throw our brains away when dealing with God.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Hasn't this been the approach of the saints that encourage us the study the Scriptures and the Fathers along with praxis? Didn't these saints utilize their illumined intellects to provide us with great, edifying expositions on the Faith?

I find nothing wrong with a holistic approach to living the Christian life. I don't see the problem.

And one of those saints that "utilized their illumined intellect" would be...whom?

« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 02:21:47 AM by orthodoxlurker »

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

They probably have. Since they believe that long that they might understand, and since it is used both to "glorify" and "love" God, one may wonder about the results. Have their stance born some fruits already?

It means that we use this sex drive as a means to glorify God. In marriage we glorify God by using the sex drive to move us towards the sexual union which unites a man and wife and causes procreation as God intended. Ouside fo marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.

I wasn't asking about sex, than about libido. You first pronounced that we should love God by our entire being and that the intellect is part of our being. I said libido was part of our being, too.

Now you switched to "glorify" instead of "love" and to sex instead of libido.

My initial complain has remained unanswered.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator

It means that we use this sex drive as a means to glorify God. In marriage we glorify God by using the sex drive to move us towards the sexual union which unites a man and wife and causes procreation as God intended. Ouside fo marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.

I wasn't asking about sex, than about libido. You first pronounced that we should love God by our entire being and that the intellect is part of our being. I said libido was part of our being, too.

Now you switched to "glorify" instead of "love" and to sex instead of libido.

Actually, lurker, Papist didn't say anything about sex. What he did talk about was the sex drive, which is in fact the definition of "libido".

As to his apparent switch to "glorify" from "love", you actually encouraged that switch with this post:

...Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Libido is sanctified by Holy Matrimony; Otherwise, there would be no reproduction of humanity.

Outside of Holy Matrimony, Libido is a Passion which affects one's mind, one's soul and one's heart. We can agree that there are terrible consequences for those who improperly exercise their libidos like disease, conflict, angst, domestic violence, unintended pregnancies, child support payments, appearances on Judge Mathis, etc.

Quote from: Papist

Ouside fo of marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.

Try the other way around; The charisma of self mastery allows for control of one's libido in order to love God with all of one's soul, heart and mind.

Regardless of what man's intellect has to do with God, God is still Love.

That does have nothing with the subject being debated here, which is, to remind you, the claim about "faith through understanding" based on augustinian misunderstanding, and its particularly malign mode expressed by Anselm of Canterbury, completely alien to Orthodoxy.

As yet another remainder, I asked several questions to the present representatives of such an approach, our RCC friends, Papist and Lubeltri, and still haven't heard the answers to the question. If this thread will not be hijacked, we might have an interesting debate.

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Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

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Hasn't this been the approach of the saints that encourage us the study the Scriptures and the Fathers along with praxis? Didn't these saints utilize their illumined intellects to provide us with great, edifying expositions on the Faith?

I find nothing wrong with a holistic approach to living the Christian life. I don't see the problem.

And one of those saints that "utilized their illumined intellect" would be...whom?

The ones who

Quote from: my last post

provide us with great, edifying expositions on the Faith

More specifically, one of the many examples I can think of is Mother Maria of Paris, in her work Types of Religious Lives. It's a very interesting analysis on the psychology behind the types of "spiritual" devotion, with conclusions drawn from her observations of the history of the Russian Orthodox Church in Soviet times. In the essay, she addresses several psuedo-pieties, one of them being "Synodal Piety". Here, she explains that, "From what has been said [about the environment that this certain false piety creates] it should be obvious that on such soil one could hardly expect to see creative forces grow."

She goes on:

Quote from: Mother Maria of Paris

Here everything is channeled toward conservation, to the preservation of the foundations, to the repetition of feelings, words and gestures. Creativity demands some new kind of challenge; here there was none, neither in the field of ideas, nor in the field of arts, nor in the way of life. Everything was strongly guarded and protected. Innovation was not permitted. There was no need for any creative principle. The synodal type of religious life, which promoted other values along with spiritual ones, namely those of the State, of a way of life and of a particular tradition, not only distorted and confused the hierarchy of values, but often simply replaced Christian love with an egotistical love for the things of this world. It is difficult, even impossible to see Christ, to experience a Christianization of life, where the principle of the secularization of the Church is openly proclaimed. This type of piety was not up to the difficult task of rendering to God what is God’s and what is Caesar’s to Caesar.

...

It is difficult to have two views on whether this psychology has any correlation with the current problems of the Church’s life. In the first place, life today demands creative efforts from us so urgently that no grouping which lacks a creative agenda can expect to succeed. Moreover, there is no doubt but that on the historical plane the Synodal period has come to an end with no possibility of return; there is no basis for assuming that the psychology which it engendered can survive it for long. In this sense it is not important how we assess such a religious type. Only one thing is important: without a doubt it is dying and has no future. The future challenges the Church with such complex, new and crucial problems that it is difficult to say off hand to which religious type it will give the possibility to prove itself and reveal itself in a creative manner.

To me, it seems like not only a saint using her mental faculties (not exclusively, of course) to ground us in the Faith, but also encourage us to use ours as well for the good of the Church and her witness, and to not settle for counterfeits when it comes to praxis.

I've personally found almost every work of a saint intellectually stimulating in some way or another. That's just what gets some people's attention.

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Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. ~Philippians 4:8; St Paul