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Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

Takes you back to when everyone received in the hand. Changes occurred because of irreverence and misuse (peasants would pocket the Eucharist, take it home, and plant it in their field to help the crops grow).

Let us who mystically represent the cherubim and sing the thrice-holy hymn unto the life-giving Trinity now lay aside all earthly care. Amen. That we may receive the King of All escorted invisibly by angelic hosts. Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Byzantine James doesn't have "hierarchical" and "priestly" versions. For example, in photos I've never seen a bishop vested in sakkos, only the omophorion over the phelonion (I don't even recall the mitre being used). I think there may be very few "hierarchical" elements incorporated into what is otherwise "normal" Liturgy (e.g., Eis polla eti, double-handed blessings, etc.).

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Takes you back to when everyone received in the hand. Changes occurred because of irreverence and misuse (peasants would pocket the Eucharist, take it home, and plant it in their field to help the crops grow).

Or they'd put it on their enemy's doorstep so he'd step on it and curse himself. Some people still try to pull off these sorts of abuses.

The earliest record we have of the Liturgy of St. James is the description we find in St. Cyril of Jerusalem's fifth Mystagogical Catechesis, which dates from the second half of the 4th century (though some scholars claim the Lectures are later and should be attributed to his successor, John).

What he gives us is an outline of the Liturgy of the Faithful, so while what he describes matches the current content and structure very closely, we aren't able to reconstruct very much of the actual text.

Bradshaw has some very good articles on the development of St. James' Liturgy. John Fenwick and John Witvliet are also worth a read on the relationship between St. James' and St. Basil's anaphoras.

Takes you back to when everyone received in the hand. Changes occurred because of irreverence and misuse (peasants would pocket the Eucharist, take it home, and plant it in their field to help the crops grow).

St. Cyril even speaks of wiping the moisture from your lips after drinking from the chalice and "sanctifying" your brow, eyes, and other senses. Quite unthinkable today.

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

The only place it has been in continuous use until today is Greece, so I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be used more frequently by the Patriarchates of Antioch (where St. James used to be the primary liturgy) and Constantinople (whose liturgical tradition is Syro-Palestinian in origin), as well as the churches of Cyprus and Greece which were previously under their jurisdiction.

It is also used by the British Orthodox Church, which uses the Greek version of the Liturgy (claiming it has been less altered than the Syriac) in an otherwise Coptic context. Moreover, they do use St. Cyril of Jerusalem's instructions for communing, including blessing the organs of sense with the moisture from one's lips.

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"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust." --Psalm 91: 1-2

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

The only place it has been in continuous use until today is Greece, so I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be used more frequently by the Patriarchates of Antioch (where St. James used to be the primary liturgy) and Constantinople (whose liturgical tradition is Syro-Palestinian in origin), as well as the churches of Cyprus and Greece which were previously under their jurisdiction.

I recall the late and great Archbishop Iakovos, of thrice blessed memory, used to celebrate this on his name's day each year. Otherwise, I have no recollection of its use in America.

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

The only place it has been in continuous use until today is Greece, so I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be used more frequently by the Patriarchates of Antioch (where St. James used to be the primary liturgy) and Constantinople (whose liturgical tradition is Syro-Palestinian in origin), as well as the churches of Cyprus and Greece which were previously under their jurisdiction.

I recall the late and great Archbishop Iakovos, of thrice blessed memory, used to celebrate this on his name's day each year. Otherwise, I have no recollection of its use in America.

Metropolitan Iakovos of Chicago, for the same reason.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

I don't see any problem if it's served once a year in other jurisdictions. It's really great to attend such old Liturgy, I think it call can enrich our spiritual life and develop our experience during "usual" Liturgy.

BTW, I would like to participate in the Pre-sanctified Liturgy of st. James - I've read in a Serbian source it used to be served in Palestine and Sinai until the XIV century...

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

It should be revived in Palestine and neglected elsewhere. Idon't see the need for spread it outside of it'traditional area.

The only place it has been in continuous use until today is Greece, so I don't think it is unreasonable for it to be used more frequently by the Patriarchates of Antioch (where St. James used to be the primary liturgy) and Constantinople (whose liturgical tradition is Syro-Palestinian in origin), as well as the churches of Cyprus and Greece which were previously under their jurisdiction.

I recall the late and great Archbishop Iakovos, of thrice blessed memory, used to celebrate this on his name's day each year. Otherwise, I have no recollection of its use in America.

Metropolitan Iakovos of Chicago, for the same reason.

I've been to a so-called Liturgy of St. James on his feast day, but it looked exactly the same as St. John or St. Basil, only the silent prayers were different.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I've been to a so-called Liturgy of St. James on his feast day, but it looked exactly the same as St. John or St. Basil, only the silent prayers were different.

When I went to a Byzantine James in NYC a few years back, it was not Chrysostom with different prayers. The Liturgy of the Catechumens was at the bema with the three stands for the readings, the Great Entrance started within the iconostasis, exited the North door, out the side door into the narthex, back in and around the nave, etc. The only thing that resembled "normal practice" as opposed to the rubrics of that Liturgy was Communion (i.e., there was no Communion in the hand).

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Takes you back to when everyone received in the hand. Changes occurred because of irreverence and misuse (peasants would pocket the Eucharist, take it home, and plant it in their field to help the crops grow).

Or they'd put it on their enemy's doorstep so he'd step on it and curse himself. Some people still try to pull off these sorts of abuses.

I've been to a so-called Liturgy of St. James on his feast day, but it looked exactly the same as St. John or St. Basil, only the silent prayers were different.

Maybe it was just Liturgy of st. John Chrysostom but with some additional/changed prayer because of the feast?... But it's not correct from liturgical view. I've attended once the Liturgy of st. James and it was totally different. Of course it is eastern, but some moments very reminded me of a well conducted Novus Ordo

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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria

Maybe it was just Liturgy of st. John Chrysostom but with some additional/changed prayer because of the feast?... But it's not correct from liturgical view. I've attended once the Liturgy of st. James and it was totally different. Of course it is eastern, but some moments very reminded me of a well conducted Novus Ordo

From what I seen IRL and comparing it to some pictures on the Net there are multiple ways of serving it. For example I don't remember it being celebrated in front of the iconostasis or directed to people when I saw it in Białystok. Neither people were communed with Blood by drinking directly from chalice.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

From what I seen IRL and comparing it to some pictures on the Net there are multiple ways of serving it.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are multiple legitimate ways of serving this Liturgy. I have a feeling that, because it is "rare" and "unusual" as it is, celebrants take liberties with it in ways they wouldn't normally with the "standard" Liturgies. I've seen "teaching Liturgies" done facing the people, outside the iconostasis, etc., but no one would consider that a legitimate alternative method of celebrating Chrysostom's Liturgy.

People should just do the services by the book. "Teaching" can be accomplished in more ways than "show and tell".

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

I think the reason it's occasionally celebrated outside the iconostasis is to allow for the celebrant to face west. So it's a practical concern, it's not done simply for the sake of being outside the iconostasis (at least I sincerely hope so).

I find the whole west-facing thing to be very suspect too. The evidence for it seems dubious, and even if it was done at some point, it isn't done now. Making use of an ancient liturgy is one thing, trying to recreate the ancient form of a rite that has undergone significant development over the centuries is both unnecessary and wholly arbitrary.

From what I seen IRL and comparing it to some pictures on the Net there are multiple ways of serving it.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there are multiple legitimate ways of serving this Liturgy. I have a feeling that, because it is "rare" and "unusual" as it is, celebrants take liberties with it in ways they wouldn't normally with the "standard" Liturgies.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

The rubrics differ in places from the Chrysostom or Basil Liturgies, but it shouldn't present a major difficulty if you read it over carefully once or twice. I would be more inclined to believe it was a matter of ignorance if, for example, a priest trained in the Byzantine rite was attempting to celebrate Syriac James.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

I think the reason it's occasionally celebrated outside the iconostasis is to allow for the celebrant to face west. So it's a practical concern, it's not done simply for the sake of being outside the iconostasis (at least I sincerely hope so).

Unless the altar is directly against a wall, it should not be too difficult to move whatever furnishings are standing on the Eastern end of the altar and celebrate facing West. There is space enough, usually, for a chair and those furnishings and to walk around.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Unless the altar is directly against a wall, it should not be too difficult to move whatever furnishings are standing on the Eastern end of the altar and celebrate facing West. There is space enough, usually, for a chair and those furnishings and to walk around.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Unless the altar is directly against a wall, it should not be too difficult to move whatever furnishings are standing on the Eastern end of the altar and celebrate facing West. There is space enough, usually, for a chair and those furnishings and to walk around.

In a lot of places that would take a lot of time and effort, and in many places the shape and arrangement of the sanctuary would make it very difficult if not impossible. For example, very often the thing that holds the fans and crucifix behind the altar (not sure if there's a word for it) isn't movable.

For me, the simple solution to that problem is to face East, but that would be too boring.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

It says in front of the altar and East, not behind/in back of the altar.

So the standard position.

Thanks for the information about your altars. I've seen enough to presume that it could be done, but I'll take your word for it as you likely spend more time back there than I do.

I always found it interesting that those who advocate celebrations towards the people based on the practice in "occidented" churches never put into practice the closely associated practice of instructing the people to "Look towards the East" or "Turn towards the Lord".

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

It says in front of the altar and East, not behind/in back of the altar.

That's the way I saw it done when I attended what was then a ROCOR monastery. It seems the Russian approach (do you know what the basis of the Polish version is?) is more conservative/cautious while the Greeks/Arabs have gone down the reconstruction/experimental route. I think the former is much more appropriate.

It says in front of the altar and East, not behind/in back of the altar.

That's the way I saw it done when I attended what was then a ROCOR monastery. It seems the Russian approach (do you know what the basis of the Polish version is?) is more conservative/cautious while the Greeks/Arabs have gone down the reconstruction/experimental route. I think the former is much more appropriate.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

The rubrics differ in places from the Chrysostom or Basil Liturgies, but it shouldn't present a major difficulty if you read it over carefully once or twice. I would be more inclined to believe it was a matter of ignorance if, for example, a priest trained in the Byzantine rite was attempting to celebrate Syriac James.

There may be only one legitimate way, but there may be several different (well, definitely are) editions used, which may have variable rubrics. Sometimes some rubrics assume certain things--such as the Antiochian Liturgikon assuming there are pews.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Mor Ephrem is a nice guy. Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.