(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: In trying to understand the reasons people believe in God or a deity (I am a former Evangelical Christian) I suggested the primary reason is fear with fear of death being the primary fear, one's own death and the deaths of those we love, but also fear of anything we cannot control.

It's indoctrination that is primary reason at least in my opinion. Were parents to teach their children critical thinking instead of fairy tales about gods and unicorns then number of believers would go down I assume.

Virus of religion need fresh and vulnerable hosts to propagate.

Quote:I will admit (as probably most atheists honest with themselves will admit) it is very tempting to believe this amazing universe has a source, a "cause" and we naturally are inclined to think that cause is a being. How can this amazing universe just pop into existence?

Have some data on what majority of atheists will probably admit?

As for how - read a book. Lawrence Krauss and his A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing may be helpful.

Quote:As an agnostic atheists, I do not deny the possibility such a being or beings exist, but that their is no evidence for it's/their existence. So the jury is out as they say.

Jury on what exactly? On something for which there is no evidence or no need? Is jury still out on World-egg and Svarog? God Buma vomiting the sun?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

I agree with te majority of what you said I just have a couple points I'd like to share.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: I will admit (as probably most atheists honest with themselves will admit) it is very tempting to believe this amazing universe has a source...

First off you want to avoid saying stuff like what I have put in bold. It implies that people who don't share your opinion are just not being honest with themselves which is fallacious. I know you don't mean anything hostile by it so don't take this as chastisement, it's not, just something to keep in mind for the future.

I say this because, from my honest perspective, I don't find it tempting in the slightest I find it lazy as all get out. I totally get why other people do find it tempting it just never has been to me.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: a "cause" and we naturally are inclined to think that cause is a being.

I'd contend this actually, I don't think it's natural at all. The very first religions we know about were that of Animism and that certainly didn't have anything like a supreme being.
I do admit that that's kind of me arguing from a technicality because through thousands of years of systemic indoctrination that's the answer most people feel is natural but I don't think it really is at a fundamental level.
I think a vast, hostile, and utterly uncaring universe designed by a loving caring god makes no sense at all, it's counter productive to the beings goals.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: How can this amazing universe just pop into existence?

From my point of view, I consider the theistic argument of "something can't come from nothing!" to be one of the most intellectually vapid arguments out there and one that is almost never challenged. Ignoring the the fact that it's just a baseless assertion, I've always said the following:
"If we are talking about nothing, like actual nothing, the kind of nothing where no people exist, there is no earth, no quantum mechanics, nothing at all just total and complete NOTHING. Well, that has implications that no one seems to ever bring up. If there is Nothing, no universe of any kind, then there are also no laws governing anything. Nothing by the nature of being nothing has no laws governing what Nothing can and can't do. This includes our old friend causality.
So Nothing doesn't have to follow cause and effect at all, which means literally anything can come from nothing. I'd actually say that without cause and effect something HAS to come from nothing. I mean the odds of nothing "continuing" to do nothing is 1 in an actual infinity of possibilities.
Not only CAN something come from nothing I think it HAS to."

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: As an agnostic atheists, I do not deny the possibility such a being or beings exist, but that their is no evidence for it's/their existence. So the jury is out as they say.

Actually, that's not technically correct, the last sentence that is. The prosecution hasn't met the burden of proof that there IS a God and because they have done so the jury would rule against them. That is not to say that the decision can't be overturned in the future when new evidence is found but from a logically consistent standpoint, the jury is not out at all.

I liked your OP a good deal, keep it up!

Kneel mortal before Whiskey I, Lord of Dalmore, Duke of Jameson, Defender of the Sloshed, and God-Emperor of Holy Terra.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: Even though I have believed for years my consciousness will survive my body's death (near death experiences and all that), I am trying to accept that when I die, I cease. Simply cease.

Imagine being a disembodied mind living forever. You couldn't interact with anyone or change anything without a body. What would happen? You would go mad.

The theistic idea is that our consciousness is who we really are, that the body just serves consciousness. In fact, consciousness evolved to serve the body's interests. Consciousness has nothing to do without a body, which is what makes the ideas of heaven and hell so static and nonsensical. That is why so many conceptualizations of heaven and hell have resurrected bodies inhabiting them.

(08-07-2017 02:11 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote: I agree with te majority of what you said I just have a couple points I'd like to share.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: I will admit (as probably most atheists honest with themselves will admit) it is very tempting to believe this amazing universe has a source...

First off you want to avoid saying stuff like what I have put in bold. It implies that people who don't share your opinion are just not being honest with themselves which is fallacious. I know you don't mean anything hostile by it so don't take this as chastisement, it's not, just something to keep in mind for the future.

I say this because, from my honest perspective, I don't find it tempting in the slightest I find it lazy as all get out. I totally get why other people do find it tempting it just never has been to me.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: a "cause" and we naturally are inclined to think that cause is a being.

I'd contend this actually, I don't think it's natural at all. The very first religions we know about were that of Animism and that certainly didn't have anything like a supreme being.
I do admit that that's kind of me arguing from a technicality because through thousands of years of systemic indoctrination that's the answer most people feel is natural but I don't think it really is at a fundamental level.
I think a vast, hostile, and utterly uncaring universe designed by a loving caring god makes no sense at all, it's counter productive to the beings goals.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: How can this amazing universe just pop into existence?

From my point of view, I consider the theistic argument of "something can't come from nothing!" to be one of the most intellectually vapid arguments out there and one that is almost never challenged. Ignoring the the fact that it's just a baseless assertion, I've always said the following:
"If we are talking about nothing, like actual nothing, the kind of nothing where no people exist, there is no earth, no quantum mechanics, nothing at all just total and complete NOTHING. Well, that has implications that no one seems to ever bring up. If there is Nothing, no universe of any kind, then there are also no laws governing anything. Nothing by the nature of being nothing has no laws governing what Nothing can and can't do. This includes our old friend causality.
So Nothing doesn't have to follow cause and effect at all, which means literally anything can come from nothing. I'd actually say that without cause and effect something HAS to come from nothing. I mean the odds of nothing "continuing" to do nothing is 1 in an actual infinity of possibilities.
Not only CAN something come from nothing I think it HAS to."

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: As an agnostic atheists, I do not deny the possibility such a being or beings exist, but that their is no evidence for it's/their existence. So the jury is out as they say.

Actually, that's not technically correct, the last sentence that is. The prosecution hasn't met the burden of proof that there IS a God and because they have done so the jury would rule against them. That is not to say that the decision can't be overturned in the future when new evidence is found but from a logically consistent standpoint, the jury is not out at all.

I liked your OP a good deal, keep it up!

Quote:So Nothing doesn't have to follow cause and effect at all, which means literally anything can come from nothing. I'd actually say that without cause and effect something HAS to come from nothing. I mean the odds of nothing "continuing" to do nothing is 1 in an actual infinity of possibilities.
Not only CAN something come from nothing I think it HAS to."

That's interesting, but your assumptions and conceptions of probability etc. would not exist also, since there is nothing. "Nothing" is no-thing it is not a thing. We can talk about things. I think every attempt to talk about nothing is necessarily nonsensical, including yours, and mine also. The nothing Krauss describes in his book (A Universe From Nothing), is not really nothing, it's a state of quantum vacuum if I remember correctly.
Nevertheless, I think you are right that the objection "Everything cannot come from nothing" is not valid, since this statement is also describing a restriction for nothing, which is nonsensical.

(07-07-2017 06:43 PM)Commonsensei Wrote: Okay. So the answer is, nothing. You didn't exist. It didn't hurt you in any way shape or form. The world survived without you events occurred things changed and you aren't bothered it in the least. The same will occure after you leave.

It was Christipher Hitchens that said "It's not so much that the party ends when you leave. It's that the party keeps going even without you."

Actually, in my opinion, death is totally different from pre-birth. It's from the perspective of my existence.

Although I did not exist before 1957, I vicariously live through the lives of historical people and times. So yes, I did not live during the Civil War, but I "feel" like I know that period by studying history.

Death, on the other hand is simply STOP. Its.... I cannot even use any language to describe death because its..... Yes, exactly.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: In trying to understand the reasons people believe in God or a deity (I am a former Evangelical Christian) I suggested the primary reason is fear with fear of death being the primary fear, one's own death and the deaths of those we love, but also fear of anything we cannot control.

It's indoctrination that is primary reason at least in my opinion. Were parents to teach their children critical thinking instead of fairy tales about gods and unicorns then number of believers would go down I assume.

Virus of religion need fresh and vulnerable hosts to propagate.

Quote:I will admit (as probably most atheists honest with themselves will admit) it is very tempting to believe this amazing universe has a source, a "cause" and we naturally are inclined to think that cause is a being. How can this amazing universe just pop into existence?

Have some data on what majority of atheists will probably admit?

As for how - read a book. Lawrence Krauss and his A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing may be helpful.

Quote:As an agnostic atheists, I do not deny the possibility such a being or beings exist, but that their is no evidence for it's/their existence. So the jury is out as they say.

Jury on what exactly? On something for which there is no evidence or no need? Is jury still out on World-egg and Svarog? God Buma vomiting the sun?

Actually the jury is still out on World-egg and Svarog and God Buma, yes. As long as we cannot prove something does not exist (which is of course impossible by definition), it may exist.

But trust me, I understand full well there is no evidence in the material world we can point to that proves a personal supernatural being or beings exist, but then think about it, if it is supernatural, by definition, it is unproveable in the natural world.

So, we live our lives based on what our natural senses can detect.

That does not mean we do not live in a multiverse, where infinite number of universes exist (as many scientists hypothesize).

So no need to be militant. I am on the same page as you. I just prefer to be open to all possibilities, because we peons on this spec of dust are lucky we even know there is a huge universe.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: In trying to understand the reasons people believe in God or a deity (I am a former Evangelical Christian) I suggested the primary reason is fear with fear of death being the primary fear, one's own death and the deaths of those we love, but also fear of anything we cannot control.

It's indoctrination that is primary reason at least in my opinion. Were parents to teach their children critical thinking instead of fairy tales about gods and unicorns then number of believers would go down I assume.

Virus of religion need fresh and vulnerable hosts to propagate.

Quote:I will admit (as probably most atheists honest with themselves will admit) it is very tempting to believe this amazing universe has a source, a "cause" and we naturally are inclined to think that cause is a being. How can this amazing universe just pop into existence?

Have some data on what majority of atheists will probably admit?

As for how - read a book. Lawrence Krauss and his A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing may be helpful.

Quote:As an agnostic atheists, I do not deny the possibility such a being or beings exist, but that their is no evidence for it's/their existence. So the jury is out as they say.

Jury on what exactly? On something for which there is no evidence or no need? Is jury still out on World-egg and Svarog? God Buma vomiting the sun?

Also, I know full well about quark theory, etc. But that is the point. The more we learn about the universe, the more we are surprised and amazed. I choose to not be dogmatic about what could or could not be.

(08-07-2017 02:11 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote: I agree with te majority of what you said I just have a couple points I'd like to share.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: I will admit (as probably most atheists honest with themselves will admit) it is very tempting to believe this amazing universe has a source...

First off you want to avoid saying stuff like what I have put in bold. It implies that people who don't share your opinion are just not being honest with themselves which is fallacious. I know you don't mean anything hostile by it so don't take this as chastisement, it's not, just something to keep in mind for the future.

I say this because, from my honest perspective, I don't find it tempting in the slightest I find it lazy as all get out. I totally get why other people do find it tempting it just never has been to me.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: a "cause" and we naturally are inclined to think that cause is a being.

I'd contend this actually, I don't think it's natural at all. The very first religions we know about were that of Animism and that certainly didn't have anything like a supreme being.
I do admit that that's kind of me arguing from a technicality because through thousands of years of systemic indoctrination that's the answer most people feel is natural but I don't think it really is at a fundamental level.
I think a vast, hostile, and utterly uncaring universe designed by a loving caring god makes no sense at all, it's counter productive to the beings goals.

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: How can this amazing universe just pop into existence?

From my point of view, I consider the theistic argument of "something can't come from nothing!" to be one of the most intellectually vapid arguments out there and one that is almost never challenged. Ignoring the the fact that it's just a baseless assertion, I've always said the following:
"If we are talking about nothing, like actual nothing, the kind of nothing where no people exist, there is no earth, no quantum mechanics, nothing at all just total and complete NOTHING. Well, that has implications that no one seems to ever bring up. If there is Nothing, no universe of any kind, then there are also no laws governing anything. Nothing by the nature of being nothing has no laws governing what Nothing can and can't do. This includes our old friend causality.
So Nothing doesn't have to follow cause and effect at all, which means literally anything can come from nothing. I'd actually say that without cause and effect something HAS to come from nothing. I mean the odds of nothing "continuing" to do nothing is 1 in an actual infinity of possibilities.
Not only CAN something come from nothing I think it HAS to."

(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote: As an agnostic atheists, I do not deny the possibility such a being or beings exist, but that their is no evidence for it's/their existence. So the jury is out as they say.

Actually, that's not technically correct, the last sentence that is. The prosecution hasn't met the burden of proof that there IS a God and because they have done so the jury would rule against them. That is not to say that the decision can't be overturned in the future when new evidence is found but from a logically consistent standpoint, the jury is not out at all.

I liked your OP a good deal, keep it up!

I love your respectful honest reply. I was amused at your first criticism about me suggesting people are not being honest with themselves (ie, a broad generalization on my part) and then you say "I find it lazy as all get out". Perhaps we all fall into broad generalizations.

But many of the points you raise throughout your critique I know well.

Let's be honest though and admit we all see things from our own viewpoint and experience and often project those unto others because that is how we see it, even if, intellectually, we understand that may not be the case.

Yes, I was raised to believe in the concept of a supernatural creator. That is religious man's nice neat answer to the First Cause all wrapped in a package with a bow. Nice and clean.

Until you ask the question, "Who created the Creator?". The religionist argues no one, God is outside of time and nature. Although we, in the natural world, cannot conceive of that, that does not automatically mean the argument is fallacious or illogical, just unproveable, as it should be if outside time and space.

So, for me, a person raised to believe in God, but who has now made the full journey to a*theism, I CHOOSE to not believe in God, not because I can prove he does not exist (no one can do that), but because I cannot prove he does exist.

(08-07-2017 08:14 AM)slw0606 Wrote: Actually the jury is still out on World-egg and Svarog and God Buma, yes.

Sure, pal, sure. Now have you even shred of evidence that would point to existence of such? No? I thought so.

Quote:As long as we cannot prove something does not exist (which is of course impossible by definition), it may exist.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Show me evidence for existence of something called Svarog.

Quote:But trust me, I understand full well there is no evidence in the material world we can point to that proves a personal supernatural being or beings exist, but then think about it, if it is supernatural, by definition, it is unproveable in the natural world.

Supernatural is just nonsense word, empty of meaning. One that charlatans use to ensnare the gullible, or exempt their claims for scrutiny: can't test my god, cause he's supernatural being.

Quote:So, we live our lives based on what our natural senses can detect.

That does not mean we do not live in a multiverse, where infinite number of universes exist (as many scientists hypothesize).

So now you conflate hypothesis and ancient myths?

Quote:So no need to be militant. I am on the same page as you. I just prefer to be open to all possibilities, because we peons on this spec of dust are lucky we even know there is a huge universe.

We aren't on the same page - you seem to believe nonsense like gods I wrote about cause it (allegedly) can be disproved where I see no reason for thinking that shit like world egg exist as there is no evidence for such.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.