I have a question about a Tolle-quote, he says (in a new earth) that awakening means we end the cycle of birth, death, rebirth. He also says that when we die, we only have a couple of seconds to recognize the light (and wake up), and if we miss that oppurtunity we are forever lost. (I'm paraphrasing of course)

Maringa wrote:I have a question about a Tolle-quote, he says (in a new earth) that awakening means we end the cycle of birth, death, rebirth.

This seems to me to be more of a Buddhist belief. It's been a while since I studied their teachings. The way I see in now is that birth, death and rebirth is not a cycle at all but a choice from one's higher being. The physical human exploration offers unique opportunities in life experience. So long as it's seen from one's soul perspective that there is value in the experience of human incarnation it will continue to do so. There is no trap here in the greater context, although it may seem so from the human ego's limited point of view. There is only opportunity and choice.

He also says that when we die, we only have a couple of seconds to recognize the light (and wake up), and if we miss that oppurtunity we are forever lost.

I don't recognize this line of thinking. I would have to see it in context of his further comments. It may just be more of the Buddhist influence in his teaching. As with all teaching, consider it in terms of your own inner guidance. How does it feel - the idea of being "forever lost"? Does it make sense in the context of an infinitely loving Universe?

MAringa wrote: I have a question about a Tolle-quote, he says (in a new earth) that awakening means we end the cycle of birth, death, rebirth.

Here is my thought: Awakening implies the knowledge that you are the Self or aware reality and that everything is happening within you. So you end the cycle or birth and death and reincarnation because the Self (your true nature) obviously does not die etc..

He also says that when we die, we only have a couple of seconds to recognize the light (and wake up), and if we miss that oppurtunity we are forever lost.

I recall this too. But its pure speculation since Eckhart is still alive so he can't really know what happens at death.

I have a question about a Tolle-quote, he says (in a new earth) that awakening means we end the cycle of birth, death, rebirth. He also says that when we die, we only have a couple of seconds to recognize the light (and wake up), and if we miss that oppurtunity we are forever lost. (I'm paraphrasing of course)

Does anyone recognize these quotes?

Please explain to me

Do you have the page number of where this is at? I'm curious to read it. Tolle can be helpful to people, but I've noticed in his talks that he has a tendency to take liberties with his opinion and/or spceculations and pass them off as fact. That's not to say that I don't often times agree with Tolle, but stepping back and looking honestly, it is apparent that I am in agreement with an opinion.

But there is a talk given by Tolle, I think it is the Findhorn Retreat DVD/CD. In it, he gives a practical example on this topic of birth and death through one of his humorous analogies he tells. He asks the audience if they have ever seen the bumper sticker, "Born Again Christian?" He then says he saw a Buddhist one that said, "Born again, again, again, and again." He goes onto say talk about being unconscious or falling back into unconsciousness. He uses an example of someone trying to meditate on inner peace/stillness and then being interrupted. The person trying to meditate then flies off the handle, yelling all angry, thus becoming once again unconscious. This cycle of birth and death is another way of talking about the cycle of being conscious and becoming unconscious.

I know that doesn't answer your specific question, but I'd like to see this section and read it in context, because if Tolle said this in the way you described, I'd have to say that Tolle is wrong on this.

Thank you WW for your thorough reply, I really appreciate it and I can relate to this! It makes sense, but it brings some more questions as you really seem to know a lot:

Webwanderer wrote:... The physical human exploration offers unique opportunities in life experience. So long as it's seen from one's soul perspective that there is value in the experience of human incarnation it will continue to do so. There is no trap here in the greater context, although it may seem so from the human ego's limited point of view. There is only opportunity and choice.

The idea about human exploration is interesting, does it mean that we still have a consciousness after death? Will we remember our life in that state? Will we have some kind of astral body? Do we interact with eachother? Sorry for all the questions

MAringa wrote: I have a question about a Tolle-quote, he says (in a new earth) that awakening means we end the cycle of birth, death, rebirth.

Here is my thought: Awakening implies the knowledge that you are the Self or aware reality and that everything is happening within you. So you end the cycle or birth and death and reincarnation because the Self (your true nature) obviously does not die etc..

He also says that when we die, we only have a couple of seconds to recognize the light (and wake up), and if we miss that oppurtunity we are forever lost.

I recall this too. But its pure speculation since Eckhart is still alive so he can't really know what happens at death.

Welcome, BTW.

makes sense, thank you! But I wonder if the Self does not die... does it remember a whole lot more, like infomation that is hidden from us in our human state? Our past lives? Other dimensions etc?

Maringa wrote:he idea about human exploration is interesting, does it mean that we still have a consciousness after death? Will we remember our life in that state? Will we have some kind of astral body? Do we interact with each other?

Consider seeing death not in terms of a state but as an experience. And yes, we will be conscious after death just as we were conscious before our birth into this physical experience. We are extensions of a greater consciousness here, and temporarily blinded from our awareness of the totality of our being for the purpose of unique experience in this world.

Not knowing how the story unfolds is quite a different experience than knowing all the answers. The challenge of the labyrinth is quite different in seeing it from above or from actually finding our way through it.

As to bodies, astral or otherwise, they are expressions of consciousness. So to the extent that a body serves a purpose we create them appropriate to the environment we are interacting within.

Do we interact with each other? Yes, of course. Understand we are all of the same Essence, the same Source. In that Essence we find our oneness with each other and All That Is. But our individualness of being comes from our unique perspective within that Oneness.

A fair metaphor is an infinite diamond with infinite facets. Each facet is unique and beautiful in its own right, yet each exists as an expression of whole of the diamond - individualized and unique yet one. There is no real separation, only perspectives within the Whole.

beginnersmind wrote:These questions can only bring speculative answers of the "afterlife" that can set up new belief systems, much like the religions of the world.

Here's how I see it (What I believe...). We all live through our belief systems. There really isn't much of an alternative living from the ego perspective. Even those who claim not to have beliefs only believe it so. So, while I agree that speculation can create new belief systems, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Philosophy and reason, study and exploration, are primary tools to expand our perspectives into belief systems that are more likely to align with the greater reality. It works well so long as one clearly believes there is always a greater understanding than the one currently held - thus it helps keep one from getting trapped within a specific concept of life.

beginnersmind wrote:These questions can only bring speculative answers of the "afterlife" that can set up new belief systems, much like the religions of the world.

Here's how I see it (What I believe...). We all live through our belief systems. There really isn't much of an alternative living from the ego perspective. Even those who claim not to have beliefs only believe it so. So, while I agree that speculation can create new belief systems, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Philosophy and reason, study and exploration, are primary tools to expand our perspectives into belief systems that are more likely to align with the greater reality. It works well so long as one clearly believes there is always a greater understanding than the one currently held - thus it helps keep one from getting trapped within a specific concept of life.

WW

I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to demonize beliefs. The human condition is one of beliefs, values, attitudes, and yes, even prejudices. Everyone has them. Many people in religion find a comfort and security in their beliefs on the afterlife. I'm only pointing out that this is all speculative explanations that are being spoken about.

Sure, one can accept and adopt these 2nd hand explanations from others and find comfort and security in them through believing they are true without actual experience. Yet until the moment of death and (maybe) shortly thereafter the person will never know, only believe, just like people of the major religions often do. I maybe wrong, but I don't think what I just stated here in this last sentence is a belief, but a simple fact.

beginnersmind wrote:Yet until the moment of death and (maybe) shortly thereafter the person will never know, only believe, just like people of the major religions often do. I maybe wrong, but I don't think what I just stated here in this last sentence is a belief, but a simple fact.

Yes, this too is a belief. I'm not suggesting that it is not true, nor that it is. That's another discussion. Beliefs may be more or less accurate in relation to what is really true. The point is we all live through our beliefs in this ego oriented world. So speculation, depending on how it is derived, can be quite valuable to our life experience.

beginnersmind wrote:Yet until the moment of death and (maybe) shortly thereafter the person will never know, only believe, just like people of the major religions often do. I maybe wrong, but I don't think what I just stated here in this last sentence is a belief, but a simple fact.

Yes, this too is a belief. I'm not suggesting that it is not true, nor that it is. That's another discussion. Beliefs may be more or less accurate in relation to what is really true. The point is we all live through our beliefs in this ego oriented world. So speculation, depending on how it is derived, can be quite valuable to our life experience.

WW

So what is not factual? My involving religious people speculation about the after life? Or my "maybe", that is speculation too. But to illustrate my point about facts maybe you can answer this question. What's it like walking on the surface of Mars?

Beginner's mind said: Sure, one can accept and adopt these 2nd hand explanations from others and find comfort and security in them through believing they are true without actual experience. Yet until the moment of death and (maybe) shortly thereafter the person will never know, only believe, just like people of the major religions often do. I maybe wrong, but I don't think what I just stated here in this last sentence is a belief, but a simple fact.

Interesting Eric, what might be 'fact' for you might also be just a belief on second hand knowledge adopted. For those of us with 'experience' it's also just factual.

But to illustrate my point about facts maybe you can answer this question. What's it like walking on the surface of Mars?

You're mixing up what has been illustrated factually as experienced in presence (present time), against something that in all likelihood (if technology continues to progress as it is at the moment) will be experienced by some in the future, but not yet. The things of life beyond - outside of the parameters of this one is not the same thing as physically walking on another planet.

There is no science or religion or technology involved or required. Science, religion and technology play catch up to creation and consciousness.

Jen, I'm not mixing anything up. I'm simply demonstrating that whether talking about what happens after the body "dies" or talking about what it is like to walk on the surface of Mars is speculation, because it doesn't come from actual factual experience.

Whether technology does create the opportunity to go to Mars in some future is irrelevant to the context of the example within this discussion, right here, right now.