Fertility Myths

... Perpetuated by society at large. After reading this article, it got me thinking about how commonplace it's become to assume that since you're a generally healthy person, it's not going to be a problem to try to conceive when you're 37 - 39 - 42+. Popular opinion allows us to think, "Celebrities do it all the time, so it must not be THAT hard, right?" and also, "I eat right and live an active lifestyle, so I'll be fine." When, in reality, the whole fertility issue is so much more complex. Many woman don't realize the weight of what they've been lead to believe until it's (almost) too late. What are your thoughts on this?http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/fashion/fertility-is-a-matter-of-age-no-matter-how-young-a-woman-looks.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

... Perpetuated by society at large. After reading this article, it got me thinking about how commonplace it's become to assume that since you're a generally healthy person, it's not going to be a problem to try to conceive when you're 37 - 39 - 42+. Popular opinion allows us to think, "Celebrities do it all the time, so it must not be THAT hard, right?" and also, "I eat right and live an active lifestyle, so I'll be fine." When, in reality, the whole fertility issue is so much more complex. Many woman don't realize the weight of what they've been lead to believe until it's (almost) too late. What are your thoughts on this?http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/01/fashion/fertility-is-a-matter-of-age-no-matter-how-young-a-woman-looks.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

Part I of the article:"FORTY may be the new 30, but try telling that to your ovaries.Melissa Foss, 41, has had 15 rounds of unsuccessful fertilization treatments. With long brown hair and come-hither curves, Melissa Foss looks â€” and feels â€” fabulous at 41. â€œIâ€™ve spent hours of my life and a lot of money making sure I was healthy, and that my hair was shiny, my teeth were white and my complexion clear,â€ said Ms. Foss, a magazine editor in New York City.So when it came to conceiving a child with her husband, a marketing executive, Ms. Foss wasnâ€™t at all worried. After all, she noted, those same traits of youth and beauty â€œare all the hallmarks of fertility.â€ Fifteen unsuccessful rounds of in vitro fertilization later, Ms. Foss now realizes that appearances can be deceiving. â€œIâ€™d based a lot of my self-worth on looking young and fertile, and to have that not be the case was really depressing and shocking,â€ she said. The couple are now trying to have a baby with the help of a surrogate and a donor egg.Advances in beauty products and dermatology, not to mention manic devotion to yoga, Pilates and other exercise obsessions, are making it possible for large numbers of women to look admirably younger than their years. But doctors fear that they are creating a widening disconnect between what women see in the mirror and whatâ€™s happening to their reproductive organs.â€œSomewhere between 30 and 40 your internal organs are aging but you donâ€™t feel it, and now you donâ€™t even see it,â€ said Dr. Karyn Grossman, a dermatologist with practices in Manhattan and Santa Monica, Calif. â€œAt least you used to get some visual feedback.â€ Dr. Grossman (who, it bears repeating, is a dermatologist, not a gynecologist) says she gets so many questions from patients about their biological clocks that she has two fertility specialists on speed dial for referrals."

Part I of the article:"FORTY may be the new 30, but try telling that to your ovaries.Melissa Foss, 41, has had 15 rounds of unsuccessful fertilization treatments. With long brown hair and come-hither curves, Melissa Foss looks â€” and feels â€” fabulous at 41. â€œIâ€™ve spent hours of my life and a lot of money making sure I was healthy, and that my hair was shiny, my teeth were white and my complexion clear,â€ said Ms. Foss, a magazine editor in New York City.So when it came to conceiving a child with her husband, a marketing executive, Ms. Foss wasnâ€™t at all worried. After all, she noted, those same traits of youth and beauty â€œare all the hallmarks of fertility.â€ Fifteen unsuccessful rounds of in vitro fertilization later, Ms. Foss now realizes that appearances can be deceiving. â€œIâ€™d based a lot of my self-worth on looking young and fertile, and to have that not be the case was really depressing and shocking,â€ she said. The couple are now trying to have a baby with the help of a surrogate and a donor egg.Advances in beauty products and dermatology, not to mention manic devotion to yoga, Pilates and other exercise obsessions, are making it possible for large numbers of women to look admirably younger than their years. But doctors fear that they are creating a widening disconnect between what women see in the mirror and whatâ€™s happening to their reproductive organs.â€œSomewhere between 30 and 40 your internal organs are aging but you donâ€™t feel it, and now you donâ€™t even see it,â€ said Dr. Karyn Grossman, a dermatologist with practices in Manhattan and Santa Monica, Calif. â€œAt least you used to get some visual feedback.â€ Dr. Grossman (who, it bears repeating, is a dermatologist, not a gynecologist) says she gets so many questions from patients about their biological clocks that she has two fertility specialists on speed dial for referrals."

Part II: â€œI watch what I eat, I donâ€™t drink, I take extremely good care of myself, and I come from a very fertile family,â€ said Fruzsina Keehn, 45, a designer of high-end jewelry in San Francisco and New York, who has tried to conceive with the help of in vitro fertilization eight times in the last two years. Later this month, she will try once again with a donor egg. â€œEveryone in my life told me how young I looked for my age,â€ she said. â€œI assumed it was the same on the inside as it was on the outside.â€The unreality is reinforced by Hollywood, much to the growing dismay of many obstetricians and gynecologists. Not only are stars in their 40s now celebrated as bona fide sex symbols (Julia Roberts, Halle Berry, Salma Hayek, the list goes on), but judging from media coverage, they seem to be reproducing like rabbits.â€œAll women see is celebrities over 40 getting pregnant,â€ lamented Shari Brasner, a New York obstetrician and gynecologist.Just last month, Us magazine ran a list, â€œ25 Stars Who Gave Birth After 40,â€ which amounted to a whoâ€™s who of glamour icons, from Brooke Shields to Madonna. The next weekâ€™s cover story had a radiantly smiling Jennifer Aniston (age 42 Â½) with the headline â€œTrying for a Baby!â€And the fixation continues. In the last couple of weeks, media outlets from The Christian Post to celebritybaby.com have been breathlessly reporting that Ms. Aniston was showing signs of being pregnant. She wasnâ€™t drinking at a recent party. Had stopped smoking. Was remarking to friends that she has been sick during a recent Hawaiian vacation."

Part II: â€œI watch what I eat, I donâ€™t drink, I take extremely good care of myself, and I come from a very fertile family,â€ said Fruzsina Keehn, 45, a designer of high-end jewelry in San Francisco and New York, who has tried to conceive with the help of in vitro fertilization eight times in the last two years. Later this month, she will try once again with a donor egg. â€œEveryone in my life told me how young I looked for my age,â€ she said. â€œI assumed it was the same on the inside as it was on the outside.â€The unreality is reinforced by Hollywood, much to the growing dismay of many obstetricians and gynecologists. Not only are stars in their 40s now celebrated as bona fide sex symbols (Julia Roberts, Halle Berry, Salma Hayek, the list goes on), but judging from media coverage, they seem to be reproducing like rabbits.â€œAll women see is celebrities over 40 getting pregnant,â€ lamented Shari Brasner, a New York obstetrician and gynecologist.Just last month, Us magazine ran a list, â€œ25 Stars Who Gave Birth After 40,â€ which amounted to a whoâ€™s who of glamour icons, from Brooke Shields to Madonna. The next weekâ€™s cover story had a radiantly smiling Jennifer Aniston (age 42 Â½) with the headline â€œTrying for a Baby!â€And the fixation continues. In the last couple of weeks, media outlets from The Christian Post to celebritybaby.com have been breathlessly reporting that Ms. Aniston was showing signs of being pregnant. She wasnâ€™t drinking at a recent party. Had stopped smoking. Was remarking to friends that she has been sick during a recent Hawaiian vacation."

I read this earlier today, and I personally agree... People that want to have a good career and a degree are generally expected to wait until their mid 30s or so to have children, and our bodies haven't been able to adapt to that yet. I think it's unrealistic for most women to expect to conceive as easily at that age as they would have in their mid 20s. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, only that you shouldn't be horribly surprised if it takes a bit longer. It'd be nice if our bodies waited about 10 years to start our periods though... No more teen pregnancies, and much less fertility issues with the 35+ age ttc.

I read this earlier today, and I personally agree... People that want to have a good career and a degree are generally expected to wait until their mid 30s or so to have children, and our bodies haven't been able to adapt to that yet. I think it's unrealistic for most women to expect to conceive as easily at that age as they would have in their mid 20s. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, only that you shouldn't be horribly surprised if it takes a bit longer. It'd be nice if our bodies waited about 10 years to start our periods though... No more teen pregnancies, and much less fertility issues with the 35+ age ttc.

Not everyone is in a position to try for a baby eg. Not with the right man,no money etc. But I see a lot of married couples (especially doctors where I work) focusing on their career first and then when they are finally ready and have everything in place they aren't able to conceive.and they wonder why?? I think people need to really think a bit earlier about their future,yes career is more important now but how will they feel in 10 years? How important are kids to them? I know life changes and priorities change as you get older but when it comes to kids I think it's either important to you or not.unless you (general) know someone who had problems with fertility later on in life i think some people just don't realize how difficult it can be.women need to open their eyes and ttc when the time is right and not rely on technology/medicine so much when they themselves have left it too late.I am a huge fan of fertility treatments,don't get me wrong.I just wish a lot of women would realize how hard/heartbreaking it is ttc as an older woman.

Not everyone is in a position to try for a baby eg. Not with the right man,no money etc. But I see a lot of married couples (especially doctors where I work) focusing on their career first and then when they are finally ready and have everything in place they aren't able to conceive.and they wonder why?? I think people need to really think a bit earlier about their future,yes career is more important now but how will they feel in 10 years? How important are kids to them? I know life changes and priorities change as you get older but when it comes to kids I think it's either important to you or not.unless you (general) know someone who had problems with fertility later on in life i think some people just don't realize how difficult it can be.women need to open their eyes and ttc when the time is right and not rely on technology/medicine so much when they themselves have left it too late.I am a huge fan of fertility treatments,don't get me wrong.I just wish a lot of women would realize how hard/heartbreaking it is ttc as an older woman.

I was 41 having DS - I didn't wait to have children because of my career but because I hadn't met anyone I loved enough and could provide a home with. I have fertility issues, however they are not age related. I would have had them at any age. What my age did was put the issue on the clock. If I was thirty, having fertility treatment to conceive etc would have meant having more than one child. (in the end I conceived naturally but needed treatment to ensure I didn't mc again)

I don't think women should panic and start reproducing in their 20s regardless of situation. I just don't get having kids with someone you can't trust or don't love or while you're broke etc. Women can and do have kids in their thirties, most without fertility treatment but longer periods of trying before conception. Be realistic, it'll take longer. When it's a case of hitting forty, things are a bit different. It's more likely to that you'll need intervention. However I know from experience, and from my peer group, many fertility problems are not age related, albeit your age may exacerbate them. If you are young and know you want a family, get your fertility tested now and be aware of any issues.

I was 41 having DS - I didn't wait to have children because of my career but because I hadn't met anyone I loved enough and could provide a home with. I have fertility issues, however they are not age related. I would have had them at any age. What my age did was put the issue on the clock. If I was thirty, having fertility treatment to conceive etc would have meant having more than one child. (in the end I conceived naturally but needed treatment to ensure I didn't mc again)

I don't think women should panic and start reproducing in their 20s regardless of situation. I just don't get having kids with someone you can't trust or don't love or while you're broke etc. Women can and do have kids in their thirties, most without fertility treatment but longer periods of trying before conception. Be realistic, it'll take longer. When it's a case of hitting forty, things are a bit different. It's more likely to that you'll need intervention. However I know from experience, and from my peer group, many fertility problems are not age related, albeit your age may exacerbate them. If you are young and know you want a family, get your fertility tested now and be aware of any issues.

I don't get why people try having kids in their mid-late forties. I think there is a reason the body usually doesn't make it as easy at that point. I may get slammed for this from the older moms, and maybe the younger ones too, but usually nature is pretty smart, it is when we start messing around when things go wrong. And let's say you are 45 when you have a baby, when your child is 20 you will be 65, that is grandma age, not mom age. I am not saying that everyone with fertility issues shouldn't have children, but sometimes it is for the best. The two people I have known that had fertility issues badly wanted children, and most people that know them would agree nature did their would be kids a favor. Sometimes forcing an issue when it is clearly not working is worse for everyone involved.

I don't get why people try having kids in their mid-late forties. I think there is a reason the body usually doesn't make it as easy at that point. I may get slammed for this from the older moms, and maybe the younger ones too, but usually nature is pretty smart, it is when we start messing around when things go wrong. And let's say you are 45 when you have a baby, when your child is 20 you will be 65, that is grandma age, not mom age. I am not saying that everyone with fertility issues shouldn't have children, but sometimes it is for the best. The two people I have known that had fertility issues badly wanted children, and most people that know them would agree nature did their would be kids a favor. Sometimes forcing an issue when it is clearly not working is worse for everyone involved.

I think one of the things perpetuating this myth is that virtually all celebs who get pregnant after 40+ keep mum about any fertility treatments they have gone through. Aside from people like Celine Dion and Giuliana Rancic, no one in Hollywood talks about it, like there's some kind of stigma. As someone who struggled with ttc and repeat pregnancy loss for over 3 years before having my girls, I know that this unspoken thing in Hollywood should be brought out in the open. Of course many women conceive twins spontaneously (unlike me), but I have a hard time believing that people like Julia Roberts and Marcia Cross did not have IUI or IVF. And there should be no shame in that. They worked their asses off and have enjoyed wonderful careers, which is difficult anyway. So now they're in a place in their lives emotionally and financially when it's more ideal for them to start a family. Although I hate to admit the influence Hollywood has on the rest of the world, I do feel that if they were more open about it, it could really help others.

I think one of the things perpetuating this myth is that virtually all celebs who get pregnant after 40+ keep mum about any fertility treatments they have gone through. Aside from people like Celine Dion and Giuliana Rancic, no one in Hollywood talks about it, like there's some kind of stigma. As someone who struggled with ttc and repeat pregnancy loss for over 3 years before having my girls, I know that this unspoken thing in Hollywood should be brought out in the open. Of course many women conceive twins spontaneously (unlike me), but I have a hard time believing that people like Julia Roberts and Marcia Cross did not have IUI or IVF. And there should be no shame in that. They worked their asses off and have enjoyed wonderful careers, which is difficult anyway. So now they're in a place in their lives emotionally and financially when it's more ideal for them to start a family. Although I hate to admit the influence Hollywood has on the rest of the world, I do feel that if they were more open about it, it could really help others.

My mother's mother and her mother both got pregnant unplanned in their 40s and had healthy babies. I am going to fear unplanned pregnancy for the next 20 years. That being said I do also think that society encourages woman to wait past the point of natural conception for many. This has made IVF a booming business. I think it would be better for moms and babies if this was not the case.

My mother's mother and her mother both got pregnant unplanned in their 40s and had healthy babies. I am going to fear unplanned pregnancy for the next 20 years. That being said I do also think that society encourages woman to wait past the point of natural conception for many. This has made IVF a booming business. I think it would be better for moms and babies if this was not the case.

The two people I have known that had fertility issues badly wanted
children, and most people that know them would agree nature did their
would be kids a favor.

That is a cold cold thing to say. Do you think that's just because of their age? Heck I can think of people of many ages who quite frankly should not have kids because they would be or are bad parents. Age has no play. I am not of "mature" maternal age yet and I hope to have my next child before I'm 35 but my husband, the most wonderful doting father ever to a 1 year old is 57. If I didn't get pregnant would that be nature doing my son a favor?

The two people I have known that had fertility issues badly wanted
children, and most people that know them would agree nature did their
would be kids a favor.

That is a cold cold thing to say. Do you think that's just because of their age? Heck I can think of people of many ages who quite frankly should not have kids because they would be or are bad parents. Age has no play. I am not of "mature" maternal age yet and I hope to have my next child before I'm 35 but my husband, the most wonderful doting father ever to a 1 year old is 57. If I didn't get pregnant would that be nature doing my son a favor?

I wonder how many women tried conceiving earlier and it took years to work. Ivf isn't some magic bullet fix-all that always ends in a baby. I started ttc at 30 (which is not young but I certainly didn't see myself as 'old') and after a year was diagnosed with unexplained infertility. Great! So we couldn't get pregnant and they couldn't tell us why. It took over two years to finally conceive. I'm one of the lucky ones. On other forums I've read and even the fertility forum here there are woman who have actively ttc'd for ten years! Can you imagine?!? Also I take exception to anyone saying if it doesn't happen it maybe for the best. My doc said the majority of her clients are young ( under 35) with unexplained infertility and that it's likely environmental factors we haven't 'figured out yet'. But I digress...

I wonder how many women tried conceiving earlier and it took years to work. Ivf isn't some magic bullet fix-all that always ends in a baby. I started ttc at 30 (which is not young but I certainly didn't see myself as 'old') and after a year was diagnosed with unexplained infertility. Great! So we couldn't get pregnant and they couldn't tell us why. It took over two years to finally conceive. I'm one of the lucky ones. On other forums I've read and even the fertility forum here there are woman who have actively ttc'd for ten years! Can you imagine?!? Also I take exception to anyone saying if it doesn't happen it maybe for the best. My doc said the majority of her clients are young ( under 35) with unexplained infertility and that it's likely environmental factors we haven't 'figured out yet'. But I digress...

It is even more extreme if you talk to younger kids... I work with young adults - who gave me a hard time for not "timing my pregnancy better". I think when you are young you are warned to the extreme - that all it takes is "one time" to get pregnant - and while that is true - even under perfect circumstances (and no fertility issues) getting pregnant can still be hard!Â For me, I did (do) have a career to think about, but I also hadn't me the right guy. I'd put a timeline in my head where if I hadn't met a guy by a certain time I was going to do it alone - but I'm glad (in so many ways) that I did meet dh.Â Sadly, I've had so many friends who've gone through or are going through fertility problems. And they are AMAZING people - and will be AMAZING moms.Â

It is even more extreme if you talk to younger kids... I work with young adults - who gave me a hard time for not "timing my pregnancy better". I think when you are young you are warned to the extreme - that all it takes is "one time" to get pregnant - and while that is true - even under perfect circumstances (and no fertility issues) getting pregnant can still be hard!Â For me, I did (do) have a career to think about, but I also hadn't me the right guy. I'd put a timeline in my head where if I hadn't met a guy by a certain time I was going to do it alone - but I'm glad (in so many ways) that I did meet dh.Â Sadly, I've had so many friends who've gone through or are going through fertility problems. And they are AMAZING people - and will be AMAZING moms.Â

At 30 I was diagnosed with polycystic ovary syndrome (without the related syndrome disorders ie obesity, diabetes and hypertension). I was told at that time I'd have a difficult time getting pregnant. I was treated and put on the pill. At 39 I got pregnant the first try. I have a coworker who is 30 and has "nothing wrong with her" but she and her husband can't get pregnant even with fertility drugs. Fertility is an art.

At 30 I was diagnosed with polycystic ovary syndrome (without the related syndrome disorders ie obesity, diabetes and hypertension). I was told at that time I'd have a difficult time getting pregnant. I was treated and put on the pill. At 39 I got pregnant the first try. I have a coworker who is 30 and has "nothing wrong with her" but she and her husband can't get pregnant even with fertility drugs. Fertility is an art.

I think your comments are off base. I didn't have my DD until I was 35. I was in a good place in my life and ready. I had no problems conceiving and had a text book pregnancy and fairly easy delivery except for the use of the vaccum because she was trying to come out sideways. Sure I will not be a young Mom but I will be around, not digging my grave.

My sister turned 42 in July. She just got married last September. She is due with her first child in December. I am so happy for her. She's wanted this for so long and she will be a fantastic mother. She also had no fertility issues. She was basically pregnant within 6 months of trying. (Does this happen for everyone? No but it is not impossible.) According to you, you don't think she shouldn't fullfill her need to be a mother because by the time her child is 20 she'll be 62. So what. Age is just a number. Things happened for her later in life than most. If she could have been married and pregnant in her 20's she would have but she wasn't. She was extremely overweight for most of her adult life. In 2006 she had gasteric bypass and her life has completely changed.

I think your comments are off base. I didn't have my DD until I was 35. I was in a good place in my life and ready. I had no problems conceiving and had a text book pregnancy and fairly easy delivery except for the use of the vaccum because she was trying to come out sideways. Sure I will not be a young Mom but I will be around, not digging my grave.

My sister turned 42 in July. She just got married last September. She is due with her first child in December. I am so happy for her. She's wanted this for so long and she will be a fantastic mother. She also had no fertility issues. She was basically pregnant within 6 months of trying. (Does this happen for everyone? No but it is not impossible.) According to you, you don't think she shouldn't fullfill her need to be a mother because by the time her child is 20 she'll be 62. So what. Age is just a number. Things happened for her later in life than most. If she could have been married and pregnant in her 20's she would have but she wasn't. She was extremely overweight for most of her adult life. In 2006 she had gasteric bypass and her life has completely changed.

I really feel for women who wait to have children and have difficulties. I also strongly believe the long term use of hormonal birth control methods do not help women (part of the reason I have never been on them). Infertility rates are climbing and it is scary.

I can understand how women would feel this way.

I really feel for women who wait to have children and have difficulties. I also strongly believe the long term use of hormonal birth control methods do not help women (part of the reason I have never been on them). Infertility rates are climbing and it is scary.

I actually asked my doctor this. I was and am a young mom. I've been pregnant at age 17,20 and 24. It was very easy, even though unplanned. I asked " Off the record, what age would be the easiest to get or try for a baby" (financial reasons aside, just biologically). He responded "In your early to mid 20's". I was just thinking, it's weird that most people aren't ready for a baby then and having babies young are frowned upon.

I actually asked my doctor this. I was and am a young mom. I've been pregnant at age 17,20 and 24. It was very easy, even though unplanned. I asked " Off the record, what age would be the easiest to get or try for a baby" (financial reasons aside, just biologically). He responded "In your early to mid 20's". I was just thinking, it's weird that most people aren't ready for a baby then and having babies young are frowned upon.

I think that late teens and early 20's is the best because women are meant to have babies young. With our society however it is not always ideal. Most people that age are not 'mature' enough because they lack to tools to provide for themselves and their family, and are starting/finishing high school or college which is required to start a career.

I think that late teens and early 20's is the best because women are meant to have babies young. With our society however it is not always ideal. Most people that age are not 'mature' enough because they lack to tools to provide for themselves and their family, and are starting/finishing high school or college which is required to start a career.

My great great grandmother had children well into her 40s. This was before the days of fertility treatments and she didn't believe in, or didn't have access to, birth control. She had 22 children total.

I realize this is purely anecdotal, but so is that article.

My great great grandmother had children well into her 40s. This was before the days of fertility treatments and she didn't believe in, or didn't have access to, birth control. She had 22 children total.

I also avoid using any hormonal birth control because I think long term use of it can affect fertility (and possibly cause other problems).

I do think the rise in infertility is interesting, and would love information on whether it is a global phenomenon, or only found in more technologically advanced cultures (quick google searches haven't turned up much in the way of good data and I do not have time today for extensive research). It is interesting to me that as our planet becomes more and more overpopulated fertility rates are dropping and diseases that directly affect fertility (such as AIDS) are appearing. I wonder if it is a form natural global population control.

This is *not* to say that people who struggle to conceive shouldn't have children, just to say that it is not surprising to me that as our population grows and approaches the Earth's capacity to support us all, fertility rates are dropping.

I also avoid using any hormonal birth control because I think long term use of it can affect fertility (and possibly cause other problems).

I do think the rise in infertility is interesting, and would love information on whether it is a global phenomenon, or only found in more technologically advanced cultures (quick google searches haven't turned up much in the way of good data and I do not have time today for extensive research). It is interesting to me that as our planet becomes more and more overpopulated fertility rates are dropping and diseases that directly affect fertility (such as AIDS) are appearing. I wonder if it is a form natural global population control.

This is *not* to say that people who struggle to conceive shouldn't have children, just to say that it is not surprising to me that as our population grows and approaches the Earth's capacity to support us all, fertility rates are dropping.

No that comment had nothing to do with their ages, and when they were trying to conceive neither of them were older than 40. It had to do with the types of personalities and issues they had as women that they would bring into motherhood. You may think it's cold, but it's true. And like I said, the people who know them personally would agree. (my point was sometimes nature has a way of working things out for the best, and people don't want to accept it, but like I said it is not true of all cases)

No that comment had nothing to do with their ages, and when they were trying to conceive neither of them were older than 40. It had to do with the types of personalities and issues they had as women that they would bring into motherhood. You may think it's cold, but it's true. And like I said, the people who know them personally would agree. (my point was sometimes nature has a way of working things out for the best, and people don't want to accept it, but like I said it is not true of all cases)

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