Dake taught that the unsaved and saved are not together in the Church. He said that the New Testament "true" Church does not consist of such. He taught that there are no sinners in the body of Christ, the "ekklesia of God" as he put it. The body consists of the born again redeemed of the Lord. I am in a kazillioninth agreement with that.

Today you see all sorts of garbage out there claiming to be the Church and it is quite appalling really. People gather with pedophiles, adulterers, drunks, thieves, revilers, and all such like. They gather with the very people they are to not even as much as associate with. In many circles it is accepted practice today and is falsely tagged as the Church. It has to make the saint of God cringe and have a feeling of sorrow and sickness inside. If not then one has to wonder how they became comprimised.

Of course this type of thing is not everywhere, but it is in a lot of places. You even see pastors that have full knowledge that folks in their assemblies are sleeping around and doing all sorts of evil, yet they turn their shoulders to it and welcome them in as if nothing at all is going on.

They fellowship with those that they are commanded not to fellowship with -those that will inherit eternal torments - the sinners - the children of the devil. This is not His body as Dake taught, not the "ekklesia of God", and there is no schism nor darkness in the Body of Christ. No matter how much men try to accept it and make it so, does not make it so. When this occurs we can certainly know that there was no such authority given for this type of gathering together nor to tolerate such things.

One can only wonder as to why men allow and partake of such? Is this type of thing ignorance or simply plain disobedience to God? If one tolerates this knowingly have they gone to the point of unbelief or maybe they just doubt what they were commanded to do? Are men confused as to what meekness is, thinking that allowing this is being meek and compassionate? Jesus was compassionate and never allowed sin to any degree!

As Dake would say, "Don't even think about such an idea" or "there is not one bit of scriptural support for such."

That the Church is not the kingdom of Heaven or kingdom of God? The Church is the wheat-part of the kingdom of Heaven and only a part of the true servants of the universal kingdom of God. In other words the tares in the kingdom of Heaven and the angels and other subjects of God in the kingdom of God are not part of the Church, as we shall see in our future studies. Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 299.

This does NOT agree with what you stated above.

The Church began not as a mixture of saved and unsaved. Only true believers would associate with the new religion of Christ. The way was too narrow for people to walk in, and persecution from the outside and judgment from the inside (Acts 5) kept people out of the Church in the very beginning. Those who did not fully conform to the teachings of Christ left Him before He was crucified (Jn. 6:66-71). Judas backslid and committed suicide, and the secret believers would not come out wholly for Christ. After Pentecost there was such persecution of the Church that no one would dare join unless he had made a consecration to suffer (Acts 5:13). Such passages as Acts 1:14; 2:1, 42-47; 4:23-37; 5:12-42 plainly show the united state of the early Church. Sin began to enter by Ananias and Sapphira, but it was quickly judged, making the people fearful of joining the Church who were not true (Acts 5:1-16). Later on, division started, and it was quickly settled (Acts 6:1-7). Persecution continued to keep the Church clean of all hypocrites for some time, and when it ceased troubles in the ranks of Christians began to appear. As the Church grew, more divisions and strife appeared until it was necessary to write letters constantly correcting certain doctrines and practices among believers. Tares appeared, and since then Christendom has been a mixture of tares and wheat (Mt. 13:36-43). Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 524.

I think to agree with you I would have to say it like this when talking about the church. "THE TRUE CHURCH"

BUT when you talk about the church as commonly talked about today... the church, the church meeting, the church bible study, the church work, the church people... Then of course here there would be a mixture of tares (sinners) and wheat (saved).

So even if the church and the professing church (as Dake put it) which includes wheat and tares - comes together we should be a part.

We should realize our responsibility and that we are saved in order for us to serve. We should find the most spiritual church in our community, not necessarily the most popular one for this latter kind is not always the most spiritual one. We should choose a church that holds up a genuine standard of Christianity and clean holy living according to the Gospel. We should go to a church that demands of its members that they live free from sin and the bad habits that will damn the soul. It will pay us great dividends here and hereafter to choose wisely the church that will help develop our faith and encourage us in following the whole Bible.

Regardless of what church we go to, we must be sure that we co-operate with the pastor and the program of the Church in the winning of lost souls. We should attend every meeting that it is at all possible for us to attend. The Bible says, “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching” (Heb. 10:25). We should back our pastor in prayer and be the kind of members that he can depend upon. We should get busy for God and use every opportunity we get to be a witness for Jesus, either in public or in private. Never turn down an opportunity to lead prayer meetings, visit the sick, help the needy, or to do religious and social work. Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 442.

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

We should realize our responsibility and that we are saved in order for us to serve. We should find the most spiritual church in our community, not necessarily the most popular one for this latter kind is not always the most spiritual one. We should choose a church that holds up a genuine standard of Christianity and clean holy living according to the Gospel. We should go to a church that demands of its members that they live free from sin and the bad habits that will damn the soul. It will pay us great dividends here and hereafter to choose wisely the church that will help develop our faith and encourage us in following the whole Bible.

Regardless of what church we go to, we must be sure that we co-operate with the pastor and the program of the Church in the winning of lost souls. We should attend every meeting that it is at all possible for us to attend. The Bible says, “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching” (Heb. 10:25). We should back our pastor in prayer and be the kind of members that he can depend upon. We should get busy for God and use every opportunity we get to be a witness for Jesus, either in public or in private. Never turn down an opportunity to lead prayer meetings, visit the sick, help the needy, or to do religious and social work. Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 442.

You make some good points and I tend to agree that some distinction be made. What is your take on 1 Cor 5:9-13? I think that is where Paul was telling the Corinthians not to hang with the sexually immoral folks. In your view how does that apply today?

I am also reminded that one has to wonder why folks are so weak in calling out those that do evil. Maybe folks were more confrontational back in the days of the apostles and have simply become desensitized in these days. What is the danger in that? It is kind of like playing with fire. I do know that if you hang out with dogs you will end up with fleas. Although an old saying, still has significance

So even if the church and the professing church (as Dake put it) which includes wheat and tares - comes together we should be a part.

Here is a challenge to consider. The opposite of the TRUE Church would be the false church, right? Any other church than the body of Christ is false. I think we know there is a dilemma with attempting to mix sinner and saint together in a fellowship capacity, yet we do see this in the world churches.

We as the redeemed of God are not part of the false church. We are the TRUE Church. How is it then that when the false church comes together we should be a part of it? We are not even to associate with such. What scriptures can we use to justify being part of the false church?

I am primarily dealing with gathering together as saints of God. This has nothing to do with evangelism. Jesus taught a completely different thing as far as evangelism was concerned. He never mixed that up as many do today.

The TRUE Church began not mixed as you put it, so how can it be mixed now? Did it somehow change from what Jesus did? What accepts this mixing from a scriptural standpoint and not man's? I get wheat and tares in the world, but the Body of Christ is another matter completely.

How does this darkness mix with light and become an accepted practice except by the hands of men that have allowed it? Since we see it mixed in society, that does not make it right nor does it grant us the right to allow such compromise.

I am sure there are some preachers and pastors out there that struggle with this constantly. I know some. I think it important that the conscience is weighed. If not, then something is sorely wrong. Turning your backs on sin and not dealing with the one in sin is great danger for the whole. That leaven only has a matter of time before it expands.

So even if the church and the professing church (as Dake put it) which includes wheat and tares - comes together we should be a part.

Here is a challenge to consider. The opposite of the TRUE Church would be the false church, right? Any other church than the body of Christ is false. I think we know there is a dilemma with attempting to mix sinner and saint together in a fellowship capacity, yet we do see this in the world churches.

We as the redeemed of God are not part of the false church. We are the TRUE Church. How is it then that when the false church comes together we should be a part of it? We are not even to associate with such. What scriptures can we use to justify being part of the false church?

I am primarily dealing with gathering together as saints of God. This has nothing to do with evangelism. Jesus taught a completely different thing as far as evangelism was concerned. He never mixed that up as many do today.

The TRUE Church began not mixed as you put it, so how can it be mixed now? Did it somehow change from what Jesus did? What accepts this mixing from a scriptural standpoint and not man's? I get wheat and tares in the world, but the Body of Christ is another matter completely.

How does this darkness mix with light and become an accepted practice except by the hands of men that have allowed it? Since we see it mixed in society, that does not make it right nor does it grant us the right to allow such compromise.

I am sure there are some preachers and pastors out there that struggle with this constantly. I know some. I think it important that the conscience is weighed. If not, then something is sorely wrong. Turning your backs on sin and not dealing with the one in sin is great danger for the whole. That leaven only has a matter of time before it expands.

Your thoughts?

As I respond recognize that the "true church" is the saved community of believers. But the word church as in reference to an assembly of people who come together at various locations (churches) are also called the church.

I agree that sinner and saint fellowship together with churches that are worldly. BUT they are also fellowshipping together in Spiritual churches as well. The church of today is NOT perfect and there are those who fellowship with other believers who are not truly saved.

We should NEVER be part of the "false church." Churches such as the Catholic church, JW's, Mormons, Churches of Christ etc. are all false churches and we should never be part of them. But churches that are Christian and yet have problems are not false churches. If we classified churches with various non-essential doctrinal differences as all being false. There would be NO church we could fellowship with. And of course that in itself would be sin.

The problem is we do NOT know who the wheat and tares are! Tares look like wheat! So to weed them out would be impossible, since men don't know the heart of men. Rank sinners - we can tell. Rebellious sinners we can tell. But the nature of a tare is that it looks like wheat! We just don't know.

So of course tares are NOT part of the Spiritual Body of Christ. BUt they are part of church assemblies all over the world. Dake called them in the "realm of profession." They profess Christianity but they are not. ONLY we don't know who they are!

You ask: "How does this darkness mix with light and become an accepted practice except by the hands of men that have allowed it? Since we see it mixed in society, that does not make it right nor does it grant us the right to allow such compromise."

Well why did the NT church allow Ananias and Sapphira to be part of the church???? Remember you can't tell wheat from tares.

You said: "Turning your backs on sin and not dealing with the one in sin is great danger for the whole."

Depends on what you mean??? If you are talking about NOT preaching about sin as dealing with it then of course your are right. Sin should be preached against and stood up against!

BUT if you mean throwing out every church attender that sins are has some sin of some kind then no.

Think about it, not attending church is a sin. But if a family goes to the lake every Sunday for a month of Sundays... should the elders of the church meet those folks at the door and tell them they are no longer welcome at the church when they finally show up?

Not paying tithes and giving in offerings is sinful. But if a person is not faithful in their giving... should the elders of the church meet those folks at the door and tell them they are no longer welcome at the church because they do not give?

Two church attenders get into an argument and cuss each other out... should the elders of the church meet those folks at the door and tell them they are no longer welcome at the church because of their foul mouth?

You could go on and on... The Church is a place for believers and sinners to come to for help, love, forgiveness, justice, and discipline... As long as people respond and hurt no one other than themselves with their sins - they are welcome in the church.

Anyway just a lot of typing and thoughts off the top of my head here, So don't take every single word to the maximum degree in understanding what I am trying to say.

It would really be helpful for you to do a study on THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN PARABLES in God's Plan For Man. It is really one of the best studies I have ever done in God's Plan.

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

● ¿Aren't we commanded not to eat (¿the Lord's Supper? ¿Publickly?) with those that are considered to be believers by the world but are known to the church to be living in open sin?

● ¿Aren't church gatherings supposed to only be of true believers?

● ¿Are pastors that refuse to purge out the old leaven (drive the false professors out of the congregation) sinning?

I realize that this isn't the norm for most "church" gatherings, ¿but shouldn't it be? If it were, there'd never be an altar call for salvation at a church service. The "altar calls" would be in the highways and byways, rather than at church.

I realize this subject has a degree of complexity to it, but nonetheless it is a powerful topic and probably needs some separation. I appreciate any input given. I do realize that tares are hard to distinguish from wheat, but was that among the congregation of the believers or in the world?

I keep going back to how Paul handled the situation of sin when it was among them and how Jesus addressed sin. I don't have much time now to respond to the other statements, but I want to bring up some more scriptures on this subject.

I am not sure we can get there in today's world, but something in me believes that the fellowship must be among the redeemed of the Lord and none others. I know the places that I fellowship I don't really see any bold outright sin, so I would not be able to tell you who is doing what and I really don't inquire of it.

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:● ¿Aren't churches commanded to purge out the old leaven?

● ¿Aren't we commanded not to eat (¿the Lord's Supper? ¿Publickly?) with those that are considered to be believers by the world but are known to the church to be living in open sin?

● ¿Aren't church gatherings supposed to only be of true believers?

● ¿Are pastors that refuse to purge out the old leaven (drive the false professors out of the congregation) sinning?

I realize that this isn't the norm for most "church" gatherings, ¿but shouldn't it be? If it were, there'd never be an altar call for salvation at a church service. The "altar calls" would be in the highways and byways, rather than at church.

What are these little upside down question marks that are appearing before your post?

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

luchnia wrote:I realize this subject has a degree of complexity to it, but nonetheless it is a powerful topic and probably needs some separation. I appreciate any input given. I do realize that tares are hard to distinguish from wheat, but was that among the congregation of the believers or in the world?

I keep going back to how Paul handled the situation of sin when it was among them and how Jesus addressed sin. I don't have much time now to respond to the other statements, but I want to bring up some more scriptures on this subject.

I am not sure we can get there in today's world, but something in me believes that the fellowship must be among the redeemed of the Lord and none others. I know the places that I fellowship I don't really see any bold outright sin, so I would not be able to tell you who is doing what and I really don't inquire of it.

More on this later...

Here is how you could fix the situation.

Put up THREE stations as people enter the church.

Station 1 - You must have come to church last Sunday in order to get in this Sunday. (if you pass then go to station 2)

Station 2 - You must have read you Bible and prayed each day of the week for at least 1 hour per day. (if you pass then go to station 3)

Station 3 - You pay your tithes right there on the spot by producing a copy of your pay check stub and writing 10% directly to the church. (if you pass this then you are welcome in the church)

Those three stations would make it so that nobody could go to church except true - blue - believers.

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note