Re: Good MUSK combos?

James I generally feel the same way but in the case of these musks you mention I worry about bio accumulation and endocrine disruption, which are serious issues with these as I understand it.

Hi James,

having worked with many of the these for years, I can only stress the point gecko214 has made, and add that many of them are
highly carcinogenic, so you need to wear a face mask and gloves...
in addition to the health and environmental concerns a number of them are highly flammable and explosive, they are made
in very similar fashions to TNT and nitro glycerin....hence 'nitro musks'

the EU has some of the nitro musks listed as an explosive

musk ketone has not been banned by IFRA as long as it is the purified compound, that contains less than 1% of musk xylene.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by James Peterson

Eew. Scary. I didn't realize they were carcinogenic. I've been working with them rather carelessly. What happened to all those people who used them in years past?

Itís worth keeping these things in perspective: there are certainly risks associated with nitro-musks but they are not as carcinogenic as tobacco smoke, which many people choose to fill their lungs with every 20 minutes or so . . . I certainly wouldnít worry about Musk Ketone at all, the others, itís a matter of balancing risks.

In the long run weíre all dead anyway: itís only a question of when and of what.

ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.Ē
― Dave Barry

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by James Peterson

Eew. Scary. I didn't realize they were carcinogenic. I've been working with them rather carelessly. What happened to all those people who used them in years past?

well the PHD chemist I know told me that back in the 30's and 40's most of the plant workers died....
of course they had very high exposure levels to the dusk etc....as you might imagine....
i also forgot to mention, the older the stuff is the more explosive it will get....

speaking of the IFRA ban, that has always bothered me, not that i questioned the scientific study or facts
it was lack of discovery, if i am saying that right....
with respect to the environmental contamination...the levels of nitro musk found in ground water was
insane, like what happened, did everyone in the world throw out their bottles of jovan musk?
so they are banned in fragrance use, but they are still used by the hundreds of pounds for trapping, for the fur industry...
and where are lures/bait put to trap for fur, oh, right outside, near streams, frozen bodies of water....etc....
apparently the fur lobbyist have more power than the fragrance industry.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by luigi_g

speaking of the IFRA ban, that has always bothered me, not that i questioned the scientific study or facts
it was lack of discovery, if i am saying that right....
with respect to the environmental contamination...the levels of nitro musk found in ground water was
insane, like what happened, did everyone in the world throw out their bottles of jovan musk?
so they are banned in fragrance use, but they are still used by the hundreds of pounds for trapping, for the fur industry...
and where are lures/bait put to trap for fur, oh, right outside, near streams, frozen bodies of water....etc....
apparently the fur lobbyist have more power than the fragrance industry.

No, fine fragrance is a victim of association really, the problem was (and is) the vast amount of musk and other fragrance materials that go into laundry products, all of which end up in the water supply. Many laundry products can be 40% fragrance - musks are produced by the 1000s of tonnes - the relatively tiny amounts in fine fragrance are not really relevant for environmental contamination.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett

No, fine fragrance is a victim of association really, the problem was (and is) the vast amount of musk and other fragrance materials that go into laundry products, all of which end up in the water supply. Many laundry products can be 40% fragrance - musks are produced by the 1000s of tonnes - the relatively tiny amounts in fine fragrance are not really relevant for environmental contamination.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by luigi_g

nitro musks are still used in laundry products?

Possibly in some countries but what I meant by the ď(and is)Ē note was that now in most cases they have been completely replaced by polycyclic musks: 1000s of tonnes of tonalid and galaxolide being the main ones, which are regarded as almost as environmentally persistent as the nitro musks, however there is no evidence that they cause any harm.

ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.Ē
― Dave Barry

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by James Peterson

Thanks Chris. I love your philosophy--all the roads of glory lead to the grave.

Glad you approve :-)

I do very seriously believe that it is good for public policymaking and personal decision making to remember that there isnít an alternative to lifeís one and only certainty. When you prevent or avoid one cause of death you automatically increase another one.

100% of humans die, whether we give up everything that gives us pleasure in an attempt to avoid all the things our governments tell us are bad for us or not.

ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.Ē
― Dave Barry

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett

Glad you approve :-)
I do very seriously believe that it is good for public policymaking and personal decision making to remember that there isn’t an alternative to life’s one and only certainty. When you prevent or avoid one cause of death you automatically increase another one.
100% of humans die, whether we give up everything that gives us pleasure in an attempt to avoid all the things our governments tell us are bad for us or not.

Said in my best southern accent: You sound like one-o-them crazy anarcho-nihilist types, I'm sure they have a medication for your brand of sociopathy </kidding> Life is one big balancing act, lol.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

"Velvione has a nitro-musk aspect that is not found either in other commonly used macrocyclic musks, nor in polycyclic musks. Velvione is excellent in all applications, including fine fragrance, where it adds a powdery volume and musky softness."

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Of the above-mentioned I've tried Cosmone, Velvione and Muscenone, but the only nitro musk I have is Musk Ketone. They are all very useful, especially for dry powdery effects similar to Musk Ketone. However, from what I have observed, none of them are as long lasting as Musk Ketone, which seems to last forever on a strip. To be honest though, smelling many vintage perfumes, I sometimes find the persistence of Musk Ketone (I can only guess this is what I'm smelling) a little bit irritating.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Many thanks, Renegade. Does anyone know which, if any, of the materials mentioned is closest to musk xylene/xylol? I'm not sure exactly how different musk xylene is to musk ketone, the only comparisons that I've read are from the Journal of the Society of Cosmetic Chemists (1960):

"THE NITRO MUSKS

It will be noticed that the important nitromusks all possess a high degree of substitution. The five commercially available nitro musks are: musk xylene (XlI), musk ketone (XlII), musk ambrette (XlV), moskene (XV) and tibetine (XVI).

The above five compounds possess the following odour characteristics:

Musk xylene: Full, not intense, "chemically".

Musk ketone: Cleaner and sweeter than xylene.

Musk ambrette: Intense, rather metallic-blackberry, a little of the ester
intensity, sharp.

Moskene: Somewhat similar in odour to ambrette but rather
weaker and lacking the penetrating intensity.

Tibetine: Has an odour rather similar to musk xylol with a little
of the musk ketone effect."

Re: Good MUSK combos?

I have an old recipe which calls for a few grains of musk. Does anyone know roughly how much synthetic musk would be equivalent to a grain of natural musk? A grain is the weight of a grain of cereal apparantly, equivalent to 65 milligrams.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by Pears

I have an old recipe which calls for a few grains of musk. Does anyone know roughly how much synthetic musk would be equivalent to a grain of natural musk? A grain is the weight of a grain of cereal apparantly, equivalent to 65 milligrams.

So for anyone needing to understand Apothecary wieghts and Measures, I just posted my tutorial here for you...:

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Thankyou, Paul. I think that the recipe is referring to grains in terms of weight rather than the granular musk grains, as a similar recipe in the book calls for a few grains of Civet or Ambergris. I have no idea how much synthetic musk to add in order to approximate the effect of a grain of musk. Does anyone have a rough idea?

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by Pears

I have an old recipe which calls for a few grains of musk. Does anyone know roughly how much synthetic musk would be equivalent to a grain of natural musk? A grain is the weight of a grain of cereal apparantly, equivalent to 65 milligrams.

In terms of interpreting "a few" I'm afraid you're on your own. However as an approximate equivalent of one grain of natural musk I would suggest about 0.5g of 10% solution of a good synthetic musk. An exceptionally good synthetic for this purpose would be a combination of Muscone (ideally l-Muscone, but emphatically not Iso-Muscone) and Muscenone - 75/25 or similar.

ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.Ē
― Dave Barry

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Thankyou, Chris. Yes ofcourse, I wouldn't ask for an interpretation of what a few means. To me, it usually means anything between three and a dozen or so.

Your recommendation to use 50 mg of synthetic musk for every 65 mg of natural musk, seems to suggest that natural musk grains are almost entirely made up of volatile musk compounds. Is that right? I don't have any Muscone or Muscenone but I have some Musk ketone, Cosmone, Velvione, Exaltolide and Silvanone Supra. Would any of these have a similar strength to Muscone or Muscenone? If not, how much of these should I use? Thanks again.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett

In terms of interpreting "a few" I'm afraid you're on your own. However as an approximate equivalent of one grain of natural musk I would suggest about 0.5g of 10% solution of a good synthetic musk. An exceptionally good synthetic for this purpose would be a combination of Muscone (ideally l-Muscone, but emphatically not Iso-Muscone) and Muscenone - 75/25 or similar.

Hmm... I've heard you speak highly of iso-muscone, and am ordering some. My preference would be to use dl-muscone or l-muscone, but given it is so hard to obtain (although I intend to keep trying to find it), I thought you once said the iso version is second best. It's been so long since I've smelled muscone I have no memory of it, but I am as big a fan of good Tonquin musk as there is (except for the endangered species and cruelty factor). Are you saying there are used for which regular generic muscone is best?

Re: Good MUSK combos?

hey Pears,

deer musk would only have < 2% muscone, by weight, the macrocylic musk component.
there are a number of other constituents that contribute to the odor profile
trace amounts of sterols, [androstenol] and muscopyridines
having said that, a few grains, in terms of weight, of deer musk would hardly do much to add to any odor profile in the product.
you can substitute the androstenol if you have a good quality Italian black truffle tincture, or there are some sources that sell
androstenol, as far as i know there is no production of any muscopyridines.
true l-l-musone is over 700.00 per gram so any d-l-muscone would suffice.
as far as dosing, i guess it would depend on what the formula was, and why it called for that small amount of deer musk.
but if one calculates the amount of odor constituents in 65 milligrams of deer musk grains, it would be a tiny tiny amount
that you would substitute using synthetics.
unless my math is wrong 2% of 65milligrams is 0.0000845 grams.....

Originally Posted by Pears

Thankyou, Chris. Yes ofcourse, I wouldn't ask for an interpretation of what a few means. To me, it usually means anything between three and a dozen or so.

Your recommendation to use 50 mg of synthetic musk for every 65 mg of natural musk, seems to suggest that natural musk grains are almost entirely made up of volatile musk compounds. Is that right? I don't have any Muscone or Muscenone but I have some Musk ketone, Cosmone, Velvione, Exaltolide and Silvanone Supra. Would any of these have a similar strength to Muscone or Muscenone? If not, how much of these should I use? Thanks again.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by DrSmellThis

Hmm... I've heard you speak highly of iso-muscone, and am ordering some. My preference would be to use dl-muscone or l-muscone, but given it is so hard to obtain (although I intend to keep trying to find it), I thought you once said the iso version is second best. It's been so long since I've smelled muscone I have no memory of it, but I am as big a fan of good Tonquin musk as there is (except for the endangered species and cruelty factor). Are you saying there are used for which regular generic muscone is best?

The Iso muscone is in my opinion, possibly 20X less good and powerful as the Laevo muscone, and about 15X less great than Muscenone.

Iso muscone is so different, weaker, it's a wholly different material, even though named as such..

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by luigi_g

hey Pears,

deer musk would only have < 2% muscone, by weight, the macrocylic musk component.
there are a number of other constituents that contribute to the odor profile
trace amounts of sterols, [androstenol] and muscopyridines
having said that, a few grains, in terms of weight, of deer musk would hardly do much to add to any odor profile in the product.....

but if one calculates the amount of odor constituents in 65 milligrams of deer musk grains, it would be a tiny tiny amount
that you would substitute using synthetics.
unless my math is wrong 2% of 65milligrams is 0.0000845 grams.....

Thanks, Luigi. By my calculation, 2% of 65 milligrams is 0.0013 grams. If a few meant somewhere in the region of 3 - 12, then that would be about 0.0039 - 0.0156 grams of muscone. Does that sound more reasonable to you? It's a ~7 lb soap recipe, so it's unlikely to require as much musk as a perfume.

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett

In terms of interpreting "a few" I'm afraid you're on your own. However as an approximate equivalent of one grain of natural musk I would suggest about 0.5g of 10% solution of a good synthetic musk. An exceptionally good synthetic for this purpose would be a combination of Muscone (ideally l-Muscone, but emphatically not Iso-Muscone) and Muscenone - 75/25 or similar.

Adding a little more to this in light of the subsequent discussion:

I wasnít assuming most of the weight of the deer musk would be volatiles, though I would have thought it rather higher, after processing, than 2%. What I was allowing for however is the fact that the deer musk has its Ďmuskinessí boosted by materials like the aforementioned muscopyridines that it is impractical to use and therefore youíd need more of the dl-muscone and muscenone (both present in the natural, which is why I chose them). Also I agree with Paulís assessment of the comparison. There is nothing wrong with iso-muscone itís just not the best match to the natural product (and quite different from dl-muscone even thought it sounds as though it should be the same).

From the selection you have to hand Exaltolide is the best match Iíd say, but as youíre going to use it in soap you could usefully use some Musk Ketone to enhance it further as the main disadvantage with the latter is the soapy note, which wonít trouble you in this context. Similarly you could use a touch of Velvione.

So perhaps 60% Exaltolide, 30% Musk Ketone plus 10% Velvione and Iím still of the view that 0.05g of that mixture is about right per grain of original musk.

ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.Ē
― Dave Barry

Re: Good MUSK combos?

Originally Posted by David Ruskin

Musk Ketone is now heavily suspect as it often contains Musk Xylene, which is banned (I think) by IFRA. Also, you put a nitromusk into soap, it will discolour.

I think Musk Xylene is banned both by IFRA and throughout the EU by law, but I believe itís still permitted as a contaminant below a threshold (Iíve not checked that). But in any case I donít think Pears is concerned with regulations for this as I donít think itís going to be sold . . . the discolouration problem however I didnít know about and will certainly be a nuisance, so that being so Iíd miss it out altogether.

Just as a point of interest Musk Xylene was the first material prohibited by IFRA on environmental grounds (as opposed to dermatological or other human health considerations). I learnt that at a recent conference on regulations (I get to go to all the fun events you know).

ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.Ē
― Dave Barry