RYAN SEACREST, CNN GUEST HOST: Tonight, dogs and cats. Man's best friends
slaughtered in huge numbers, maybe by the millions, for their fur. Imagine,
the animals that we love so much as pets beaten, strangled and skinned.

Here to take us inside the shocking story, Lady Heather Mills McCartney,
Sir Paul's wife. She's an activist for PETA, People for the Ethical
Treatment of Animals. Actor Alec Baldwin, his animal activism earned him
PETA's Linda McCartney Memorial Reward this year. Rick Swain, chief
investigator for the Humane Society of the U.S. and a former homicide
detective. Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich. He helped pass legislation to
try to stop this horror. So did Virginia Congressman Jim Moran, a member of
the Friends of Animals Caucus.

They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening from Los Angeles. I'm Ryan Seacrest in for Larry King
tonight. There is no way to know the exact numbers, but animal rights groups
estimate that up to 2 million cats and dogs are slaughtered in China every
year for their fur. Undercover video from China and elsewhere in Asia shows
dogs and cats being beaten, strangled and skinned.

For the next hour we'll be looking at this issue. What's happening to
this dog and cat fur? Where is it being sold and who's buying it?

We have to warn you that some of the video and photos you will see
tonight are very, very disturbing. Thank you, panel, for being with us this
evening.

Let's start with each of you and your individual roles when it comes to
this cause. Heather?

LADY HEATHER MILLS MCCARTNEY, WIFE OF EX-BEATLE: I got a videotape sent
to me 11 months ago from Dennis Erdman, who is one of the directors of "Sex
in the City." And he had been at our benefit for landmines and said, look,
you seem to have made campaigns work. You've got to help us.

And I get asked things every day and the reason landmines works is
because I stick specifically to that. But when I watched these images of
Alsatian puppies and Golden Retrievers being skinned alive in China for fur
to be brought over to Europe, I was just horrified and had to get behind it.

SEACREST: And Alec? How did you get involved? ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: Well,
the specific issue with China, with cat and dog fur importation from China,
was something that was mentioned to me by Heather, because I went to the
Adopt-a-Minefield benefit. But knowing as I do -- because I work with PETA
-- that the Chinese market is such a significant part of our imports now and
they're exporting so much stuff here that exposing the techniques they use,
the inhumane techniques that they're using in China to make these fur
products for U.S. consumption -- and many people don't even know that
they're buying cat and dog coats. They're buying a product that they just
know in some generic sense -- many American consumers simply buy a fur
product, unaware of what the source of the material is.

SEACREST: How shocked were you when you first saw some of this video and
started to learn about it?

BALDWIN: Unfortunately, I wasn't shocked at all because I had worked with
PETA on other hidden video. And my hat goes off to those that obtained the
hidden video here because it's a very dangerous process. I've worked with
other organizations like the Performing Animal Welfare Society, Pat Derby
(ph) and Ed Stewart (ph) would go --- Ed would go get hidden video of abuse
of circus animals and so forth and it's very risky.

The people that are doing this will always claim that there's some
economic determination for what they're doing. You can get into a lot of
trouble if they catch you with a hidden camera. But I wasn't surprised at
all because I had narrated the "Meet Your Meat" videotape for PETA, which of
course had a lot of hidden video of cattle ranching and chicken farming and
so forth.

SEACREST: Congressman Kucinich, you have been instrumental with this
legislation. How did you first get involved and what's your role?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, (D) OH: The weatherman at Channel 8 in Cleveland,
Dick Goddard, had a tremendous movement started in Cleveland which focused
on the Humane Society's 18-month investigation. And when I saw those films,
it broke my heart. I mean, you see what's happening to poor and defenseless
animals and you want to do something about it. So with the help from Dick
and others from Channel 8, what we did was to come together -- we had a big
campaign. And thousands of people in Cleveland became involved and it
resulted in the support that led me to ask Congress to get included in a
trade bill the dog fur -- a bill that would restrict the use of dog and cat
fur -- actually ban it in the United States.

And we got that passed with the help of Jim Moran, Congressman Crane at
the time. And that happened five years ago.

So you can make a difference by being involved which I think is the
message from this panel.

SEACREST: We're going to talk more about that journey and what happened
five years ago. Right now I want to show you some videotape that was given
to us by PETA which really hits home how awful this story is. We understand
it was shot this summer at a marketplace in southern China.

Before we show it, again, I want to warn you that it is very, very
disturbing. Heather, I think you're familiar with this video. Why don't you
tell us about it as we roll this? Take a look.

MCCARTNEY: Well, you're going to just be horrified by watching it. It's
totally barbaric. I mean they crush the dogs and cats into what are
virtually barbed-wire cages, and they put 20 to 30 all crushed together and
just throw them -- look at them, they're throwing them off a truck 20 or 30
feet. And there's no reason for that at all. It's totally inhumane. And they
pick them up by the neck with tongs to move them from one case to the other
and just throw them in. And you see the dogs aren't even violent. They're
just poking and prodding the dogs as we speak.

And the pussy cats are licking each other. They actually lick each others
wounds. They don't even claw each other. If you were in that situation,
you'd be clawing your way to get out and they're just licking each other
because they're so shocked and they're watching around them, what's going to
happen. They're going to be skinned alive. And there's just no reason for
it.

SEACREST: Your husband had a very profound reaction once he saw this
video. Tell me about what Sir Paul said after he learned what was going on?

MCCARTNEY: Well, he said that no way will we ever go to China, will he
perform there, and the fact that they keep denying it's going on.

SEACREST: Was he performing there?

MCCARTNEY: No, but he had planned to go and do a world tour but he
wouldn't go to anywhere where they -- China do a lot of inhumane things,
sadly, and I can't even believe we're trading them until they treat their
animals and their citizens as expected with countries that where trading
with so -- he didn't want to go there.

SEACREST: Let's go to Washington. Rick Swain from the Humane Society.
Tell us about your role in this.

RICK SWAIN, HUMANE SOCIETY: I was one of the principal investigators of
the Humane Society of the United States. We partnered with Manfred Kerman
(ph) in Germany, who's an independent journalist, and conducted the original
investigation into the use of dog and cat fur, finding it, of course, in
China and then finding it in the marketplace in the United States and still
finding it throughout the world.

SEACREST: And this investigation in 1998, what did you witness firsthand,
Rick?

SWAIN: Well, to start with, I didn't believe it. I didn't believe that it
was even remotely possible that this many dogs and cats could be slaughtered
as inhumanely as they were for their fur and each step of the investigation
I just was surprised. I said to them this isn't possible but of course you
see the physical evidence, the graphic evidence. You see them in a warehouse
piled to the ceiling the size of a football field filled with dog fur being
the butcher shop in the village that's supplying the tannery with dog and
cat fur and you realize it is true and it's just beyond comprehension.

SEACREST: It really is. It's just unbelievable.

Congressman Moran, also in Washington. How did you get involved?

REP. JIM MORAN, (D) VA: Well, it -- I'm not as disciplined or determined
as my friend and colleague ...

SEACREST: As our good friend here.

MORAN: Well, yeah. I admire Dennis. I'm just kind of a poor slob trying
to keep his conscience alive.

But I do know that man's inhumanity to mankind generally begins with the
way in which individuals and societies treat animals. Cruelty to asnimals
invariably leads to cruelty to other humans, and this is a horrific case. We
can stop this, because China and the individual companies that engage in
trade of dog and cat fur don't make that much money. If we threaten them
with economic sanctions then they're going to stop it. That legislation that
was passed in 2000 by President Clinton, and gave the Humane Society the
ability to prosecute, has in fact substantially reduced the use of dog and
cat fur in the United States.

When Rick did his investigation, even in National Airport, the nation's
capital, they found that about 35 percent of the products that they picked
off the shelf that had fur, when they did a forensic analysis, it turned out
to be dog and cat fur.

Well, when we told companies and they realized what the repercussions
would be, they immediately stopped. And so I don't think there is a whole
lot of it deliberately going on. I suspect, though, that firms that import
from China regularly may have some, but I don't think it's deliberate.

But here the United Kingdom doesn't even have a ban. I would think that
they would be ahead of us in something like this.

SEACREST: We had asked the Chinese embassy in the U.S. to provide either
someone for an on camera interview or a statement for tonight's show. They
gave us the following statement, which is headed "Fur industry in China on
humane track."

It reads, "Animal protection and animal welfare is by no means exclusive
to the western countries -- the idea has long been existed (sic) in
traditional Chinese culture. The idea of benevolence held by the
Confucianism or the tradition of protecting living things in Buddhism shows
the Chinese people's concerns about animals. The case of dogs and cats being
brutally killed is individual action of some farmers who simply did not have
the knowledge base to properly slaughter animals. The case does not reverse
the fact that the Chinese people, like the American people, love animals.
China's fur industry is generally on the right track. The Chinese government
attaches great importance to strengthening, adopting international standards
for the fur industry. We sincerely hope to strengthen exchanges and
cooperation with the international community to promote the improvement of
better protection and welfare of animals."

That is what they had to say. We're going to take a break, come back, and
you can respond right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SEACREST: Welcome back. I'm Ryan Seacrest in for Larry King tonight.
We're talking about the horrific abuse of dogs and cats for the sake of
their fur.

Having heard the statement from the Chinese government. What do you have
to say about it?

MCCARTNEY: Now they're actually admitting that farmers do slaughter
animals by skinning them alive. Why don't they make a law that they don't do
it? Because that's the only way they know how to do it. Why can't you just
cut an animals throat which is horrific to anything (ph) but to actually
just skin it alive and leave it to die for 20 minutes? It's sick.

SWAIN: Heather is absolutely correct. For the first time that I've heard
them they're actually admitting it. What's really ludicrous about that
statement, there is -- we spent months and hours and hours and weeks
undercover corresponding with these people, making up fake names for dog and
cat fur. They're very much aware of the sensitivity of western countries and
European countries.

SEACREST: What do you mean, making fake names?

SWAIN: They call them fantasy names.

SEACREST: Fantasy names for an actual dog?

SWAIN: No, for dog or cat fur, so they can trade it without western
countries or European countries being aware of what it is they're trading
in.

SEACREST: Congressman Kucinich?

KUCINICH: If you take the Chinese officials at their word this is an
important moment. They are for animal rights and they say so in the context
of celebrating Buddhism. That would be a moment that the Dalai Lama would
applaud. I would add though, that if they are real about this they should
submit to voluntary curbs on the export of dog and cat fur from their
country and they should also permit open inspection.

We should be able to go. If this group wanted to go, Ryan, all of us, we
should be able to go to China and look at those places where wew know this
is happening.

SEACREST: What would happen if you wanted to go right now? KUCINICH:
Well, you know, based on this. I'm going to send a letter to the Chinese
embassy, saying this the direction they want to go, it's a new era in animal
rights, then why don't you invite the Humane Society, PETA and others to
come and inspect, and then we'll see.

MCCARTNEY: That's a good idea.

BALDWIN: Another thing that I think is important, just from my own
experience, is that I hope that HSUS, I hope the Humane Society and so forth
can get this footage that Swain obtained on a Web site that people can go to
and they can view it over and over again ...

MCCARTNEY: It's on my PETA. We've got it on PETA.

BALDWIN: It's on PETA's Web site ...

MCCARTNEY: And the Humane Society.

BALDWIN: And HSUS. Because the great thing about people who are inclined
in this country to care about these things. They don't need anybody to tell
them what's on that tape. You see that tape and you see that's abuse of
animals and the tape speaks volumes about the issue.

SEACREST: We have some more of that tape to show you now. This was shot a
few years back, actually. It captures the awful brutality of this story.
It's far too disturbing to show it in its entirety but Rick Swain has seen
it and can tell us more again, it's difficult to look at. Let's roll that
tape now and Rick tell us about what we're looking at here.

SWAIN: OK, Ryan. What you're seeing is a dog, obviously an Alsatian or a
German shepherd being tied to a fence prior to being slaughtered for its
fur. The method they use is designed to do as little damage to the fur as
possible because -- it's economics, that's what it's about. What you just
about saw was the man was going to slash the inside of the thigh of the dog
and let it bleed out and actually skin it while it's still alive, at least
appears to be still alive.

And again, that's because they want to protect and preserve their fur. If
they did in fact do what Heather suggested and slash the throat, they
wouldn't do that because economically that wouldn't make sense to them. That
would damage their fur and that's not what they're about.

MCCARTNEY: And when you actually see the whole of that footage -- because
we've watched hours of it -- the dog is still alive. It's still completely
alive for 20 minutes, it's still blinking and shaking and just in total
shock -- because obviously I know from losing my leg, your body, the
endorphin and the adrenaline rushes and you feel the pain, but you're just
in absolute shock. And it is lying there in total shock and then they just
throw it on another pile of flesh. The whole myth that they eat dog meat,
apart from in small areas of China -- SEACREST: Do they or don't they?

MCCARTNEY: They do, but it's a different dog.

SEACREST: What's the difference?

MCCARTNEY: Well, the dogs that they eat and have the meat from, they
don't use its skin or its fur, and the dog whose skin and fur they use, they
don't eat the meat. It's barbaric. We've got to make a stand, that if we're
going to open trade to China the way that we are, that they have to have
humane ways of treating humanity, animals, people, everything. We can't do
that. We can't -- it's just disgusting, it's so disgusting.

SWAIN: I think Heather is absolutely correct. We asked, when we were
doing the undercover part of this, repeatedly, do people in China eat dogs
and cats? And the people who we were dealing with weren't in these couple of
small pockets in China, and they said no, eating dog is considered a very
low class thing to do and nobody eats cat because it doesn't taste good.

MCCARTNEY: But the great thing is that they are admitting there are --
they went from total denial -- and then the Beijing news put in pictures of
dogs and cats being slaughtered. Now they've gone to the next level because
too much footage, too much proof and too many people that are lucky enough
like all of us to be on a platform to speak out about it and making them
have to look at the fact that they're not going to get away with it any
longer and if they want to carry on exporting their high end exports,
they're risking them by treating these animals so inhumanely and doing
nothing about it, allowing it to go on.

SEACREST: So when we come back, what do we do about? What's still
happening, it is the global fur trade of dog and cat fur. LARRY KING LIVE
returns after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SEACREST: We're talking about fur trade. Dog and cat fur trade. And LARRY
KING LIVE invited a representative from the International Fur Trade
Federation to take part in today's show but they declined the invitation.
They said it's their policy not to take part in televised debates. They also
said they would not participate since, and I'm quoting now, "The fur trade
in North America and Europe categorically does not handle these products."

The IFTF did, however, provide a statement that reads in part, "Contrary
to misinformation supplied by activist groups, the fur trade in Europe and
North America does not use felis catus and canis familiaris, cat and dog.
While we respect the cultural diversity between nations, we are sensitive to
the fact that in many parts of the world these species are domesticated pets
and use of their fur would be unacceptable to the majority of people. The
worldwide fur industry is tightly regulated by provincial, state, national
and international regulations and codes of practice. The fur trade does not
use endangered species. As an industry we are against any form of animal
cruelty. We deplore and work against the mistreatment of animals. It should
be also noted that the trade has introduced a fur labeling system in Europe
and noted that in North America all fur products are clearly labeled as to
type."

And for the record, LARRY KING LIVE also invited the Fur Commission,
U.S.A. to appear on the show and they declined. They said they only
represent mink.

Who would like to respond to that statement?

MORAN: Ryan?

SEACREST: Yes sir. Go ahead.

MORAN: Ryan, one of the troubling things in that statement is this issue
of domesticity. If you look at that film clip just before the dog is skinned
alive, it is wagging its tail. It is a domesticated animal. It is trusting
its human handler. That's why this is so easy for the people who are abusing
these animals in such a cruel way and why it is so horrific because these
dogs and cats trust humans. They are immediately accessible because they're
not going to bite, they're not going to scratch and we take advantage of
that -- the Chinese have -- to boil them, skin them alive. This is the kind
of thing that worldwide we need to stop.

One of the things that we could do is the U.S. could take the lead and
get the next international conference on customs policy together to urge an
international ban and see if we couldn't get the Chinese government to walk
the walk instead of just talking the talk when they think it's helpful to
them.

They're being defensive right now but I don't think they're being
particularly honest.

SEACREST: Well, it's the question. What can the U.S. do in terms of the
global front?

KUCINICH: Well, first of all, you have to acknowledge, and the U.S. has
banned the importation of dog and cat fur.

SEACREST: Federal law.

KUCINICH: Federal law. And I know that Heather, you have been working on
trying to push the E.U. in that direction.

MCCARTNEY: Europe. And we need to take America -- we need to take America
as an example of how they quickly put a ban through within a year on dog and
cat fur so when people were worried about whether they bought fake fur
because we found, through Rick and Manfred that even fake fur in Europe is
actually dog and cat fur because it's cheaper to label it -- and to kill a
dog.

SEACREST: So it would say "faux fur" ...

MCCARTNEY: To skin a dog alive than manufacture fake fur. So we have to
have a European ban ... SEACREST: To the consumer though -- they think they
are buying something that is not ...

MCCARTNEY: Fake fur. Yeah. And we found it in many different countries.
We've had six countries ban it now. Switzerland with 80,000 petitions banned
it three weeks ago. But we have to have a European ban. The sad thing is,
the inhumanity of it all is irrelevant as far as the European Commission are
concerned. It's all about consumer duping. So they're trying to say, well,
let's get tougher labeling. But tougher labeling doesn't work. How can you
check everybody's fur that comes through and DNA test it to see if it's dog
and cat ...

BALDWIN: That's my question which was in the statement that you just
read, they said that all of this fur is labeled and I'm wondering is that
accurate? I mean, how much of this fur is accurately labeled?

SEACREST: Well, the law here says what about labeling? Congressman
Kucinich?

KUCINICH: First of all, there is a strict ban on importing dog and cat
fur to the United States. Someone labels it falsely and they import it
anyway and they send it to the United States, then they have violated the
law. Now the thing that we have to do is to make sure is that we head off
the objections that might be happening in the E.U. by going right to the
World Trade Organization and say, look, this is an animal rights question
that ought to be -- ought to have preference with all the other rights,
worker rights, human rights, environmental quality principles, and that
ought to be subject to agreements all over the world.

BALDWIN: I have a question for Rick Swain. Anybody at HSUS or at PETA or
so forth, to their knowledge, how much falsely-labeled material is coming
here from China right now?

SEACREST: Here to the U.S.?

(CROSSTALK)

SWAIN: You're absolutely correct. I mean, you hit a major point. When I
was in China, I was accompanied, as you probably know, in many towns by a
government minister and I saw a well-known American label on a coat hanging
on a rack and I knew it was dog fur and I asked about it. I said, "What's
with this label?" And the minister just laughed and said, "This is China,
we'll put any label in it you want."

And we have as recently as within the past three months purchased cat fur
out of China in Czechoslovakia.

SEACREST: What about here? What products would still be available to
consumers here in the United States? Are they out there?

SWAIN: We've done random checks since we completed the original
investigation at the Humane Society of the United States, but we are not
finding much of it. MCCARTNEY: It's a great sign. That shows that the ban
works, so if we can get a ban in Europe, then we're minimizing their sales
and China need to realize that they are risking their high-end exports, so
just put a law in where it's totally illegal.

SWAIN: That's why it stopped here, is because the people in the trade
realized that they were risking their high-end business.

MCCARTNEY: Yeah.

BALDWIN: And this also connects, in a way, to interdiction techniques
they use with drugs in foreign countries as well. Smashing all the cocaine
laboratories you want isn't going to solve the problem. And going over there
and trying to enforce American law or influence trade law in China isn't
going to make a difference. You've got to educate people in this country
that when they buy a fur product they don't know what they're buying very
often in this country.

SEACREST: Part of that process, as Heather pointed out, is looking at
this videotape, and as I said earlier in the program, it's very difficult to
watch. This was provided from PETA. It was shot this summer at a marketplace
in southern China. Again, graphic video.

Heather, again, tell us exactly what is happening here. We have seen the
dogs and the cats thrown from buses, and look at these pictures now. It's
just unbelievable.

MCCARTNEY: I can't actually decide what's worse than the footage that
I've seen, whether the skinning of an animal alive or transporting it in
such inhumane conditions and they're throwing now --

SEACREST: Where are these pelts going? What is happening?

MCCARTNEY: They're coming over to Europe. They're coming over to Europe.
And hopefully they're not coming into America because the ban has worked.
And the worst thing is, the coats are the smallest amount. Most are being
made into is all the trim, because Rick showed me Alsatian puppy and Golden
Retriever and they dye it to look like fox, mink and sable, and they do all
these things to it, and then they use it as trim and you think, oh, that
feels nice and soft. And most people don't even know if it's fake fur or
whatever it is in Europe.

SEACREST: We're going to get a break and come back. More on this very
enlightening conversation after the break. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE
on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SEACREST: Back on LARRY KING LIVE. The conversation about dog and cat fur
trading globally and what might we buy unknowingly in the United States. I
want to ask you guys about that in just a second. We've got quite a panel
this evening and let me read you this statement provided to us by the
International Fur Trade Federation. It points out that "In North America all
fur products are clearly labeled as to fur type. It says, "In the USA, clear
fur labeling is required under the Fur Product Labeling Act as to fur type
and country of origin; in Canada, the accuracy of information on fur labels
is required under the provisions of the Competition Act."

What is possible here in the U.S.? Is it possible for us, right now, to
go out and purchase something that unknowingly is dog or cat fur?

BALDWIN: Yes.

SEACREST: Congressman Kucinich?

KUCINICH: Well, we know there's a ban, but at the same time, even though
there's a ban on dog and cat fur, for purchase in this country or even
sending it to this country, it is possible that people could unknowingly
make such purchases so what we have to do is to make for wiser consumers. I
mean, we're coming into a season where people are going to be making all
kinds of purchases. They're going to be looking for things that have fur
trim -- allegedly fake fur trim.

They need to ask questions as to, where did it come from, what is it made
of? It is going to require the -- as Jim Moran mentioned earlier, the
Customs Department to become more involved in looking at what kind of
material is being sent here.

SEACREST: Is there a loophole at all in the law? Because I know certain
products under $150 do not require the same labeling as those over $150.

MCCARTNEY: And that's the scariest thing, because dog and cat fur is so
cheap. It is cheaper to manufacture -- to kill a dog alive and use that as
cheap fur than it is to --

SEACREST: Congressman Moran, do we have a loophole that we need to
address?

MORAN: Ryan, I do think that there is some flaw in this law. We have made
more progress than a number of the nations we've referred to, but I think
Dennis would agree that there are some ways in which we could refine the law
to make it more effective.

This cap of $150 that says that if a product is valued at less than $150,
it doesn't have to be labeled, that is a flaw, a loophole in the law,
because a lot of these products, of course, because it is cheap fur, are
going to be considerably less than 150. Figurines, for example, the little
dogs and cats that have fur on them, that can actually be dog and cat fur if
we're not careful. Glove lining, for example, most gloves are under $150.

So these are things that we could do to improve that law and hopefully
serve as an example for other countries to apply more scrutiny as well.

BALDWIN: But also, you were mentioning, can people inadvertently or
unknowingly be purchasing these products in this country? U.S. officials,
government officials, trade officials, trade associations are not over there
in China watching everything they're doing, nor could we be. The Chinese, as
we've been told, are sending products over here and they are mislabeling
products.

The smartest thing that people in this country can do is, if you don't
understand the origin of the fur in the products you're buying, don't buy
that product. Don't buy it.

SEACREST: We've mentioned that the holiday season is coming up.

MCCARTNEY: One thing is that people don't know that this dog and cat fur
can be on toys.

SEACREST: With the holidays coming, more and more toys are purchased than
at any other time of the year.

MCCARTNEY: I mean, we did tests, and there's chromium toxicity levels at
12 times higher.

SEACREST: What kind of toys?

MCCARTNEY: Just little fluffy toys from China.

BALDWIN: Dolls, animals, anything that has fur products on them. Again, I
think that when -- we've talked about this before when we were in the
greenroom before we did the show -- one of the issues when you deal with
animal protection issues is there are certain things you are never going to
be able outlaw. And it's tough. It's painful to say to people, you're never
going to be able to outlaw inhumane hunting practices. You can try, but
you're never going to be able to outlaw hunting, per se. You're never going
to be able to outlaw people wearing fur. We're not telling people, Don't
wear fur. I would prefer that they not wear fur. But we're saying to them,
if you don't understand the origin of the fur that's in the product that
you're buying, don't buy that product.

SEACREST: Because it could be a domestic animal.

BALDWIN: There's a very good chance that it could be a mislabeled
product.

KUCINICH: Because they're working to defeat the labeling.

SEACREST: Some more tape now. Again, be warned viewers, you may find it
disturbing. This time you're going to find out what happens to cats. Rick,
you've seen it. Tell us about this.

Where are we here?

SWAIN: You're in the Philippines, now. This is actually the second time
this particular company -- they were closed down after this investigation
was done. But you're seeing two cats out of a crate that originally
contained about 15, and they know what's going to happen. They're taken and
pulled against the top of the crate and strangled.

Again, the idea is to preserve the fur. It's not about a humane end for
the animal. That's the original crate.

MCCARTNEY: And this is for fashion. How could anybody want to wear
something for fashion?

BALDWIN: And when you get into that -- and I blame you because you've got
me so worked up about this -- and that, is when you look at people who wear
for fur products and you say them, the history of fur -- you look at the
history of people who skinned animals and wore the skins of animals to
protect themselves against the elements, because there were no synthetic
fibers that accomplish that as well as we have now. There's no excuse to
wear fur today, other than vanity. There is none. You can purchase synthetic
products that will guard you against cold weather and will protect you
against cold weather better than any animal skin can.

SEACREST: Is there any aspect, culturally -- if you think about these
places, we're talking about some remote regions of Asia -- culturally, do
dogs and cats just mean less to these people?

SWAIN: Ryan, we --

MCCARTNEY: Obviously so with the way they're treating them. They could be
picking them up gently and doing it humanely.

KUCINICH: The question we have to ask here is, what do they mean to us?
Because we're called upon to set a higher standard and that's what we're
trying to do and as people see on a program like this, you will have a
million more activists in the United States who start to ask questions,
demand accurate labeling and demand enforcement of existing laws and as Jim
Moran says, if we need to we'll improve existing laws.

SEACREST: In Washington, jump in before the break.

SWAIN: Ryan, this isn't in remote -- just in remote areas. We found the
product in Beijing, we found it all over China and the labeling solution is
ridiculous. As I stated before, they'll put any label on it that you want.

BALDWIN: And -- go ahead.

MCCARTNEY: And we're buying it, so we're to blame. It's not about just
what they're doing. We are buying it for fashion and we are to blame.

SWAIN: It's an economic point and Heather and Alec are absolutely right.
It's economically driven. If people didn't buy the product, this wouldn't be
happening in China.

SEACREST: All right. Let me get a break -- we'll come back and we'll
continue with this conversation. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Stay with
us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SEACREST: Welcome back. I'm Ryan Seacrest in for Larry King tonight.
We're talking about the horrific abuse of dogs and cats for the sake of
their fur. If you're just joining us, you should know that we'll be showing
undercover video from places where these domestic animals are brutally
killed for their pelts. Some of the video is far too graphic to air and
viewers, please be warned, when we roll this, it is definitely disturbing.

Alec, you wanted to talk about the cultural aspects, specifically China
and around the world?

BALDWIN: I think it would be unfortunate if people left this program
thinking that this is something that is unique to the Chinese, that animal
cruelty -- this is just where that light has been cast now on this dog and
cat fur issue coming from China. Here in this country in terms of meat
production and poultry production and so forth, we have plenty of blame to
go around in this country for how cruelly we treat animals in this country
in terms of the food supply.

So I don't want people to think, well, it's these heathen Chinese that
are doing this with dogs and cats. The issue for me is that you want people
to understand that although you can't outlaw fur and although we urge people
to only wear products in which the fur is harmed humanely, where there is
doubts, don't buy it. And right now there are serious, serious doubts about
the fur production industry and what's coming over from the Chinese.

MCCARTNEY: And we've had a huge majority of people go on the Web site
from China and Chinese Americans appalled at what's going on in their own
country. So it's not a sweeping statement that all Chinese are like that.
Far from it. They're really behind -- they don't want to have this going on
--

BALDWIN: They have animal rights activists of their own.

MCCARTNEY: -- in their own country at all. In fact, some of the key
people involved in this investigation were Chinese women who could never,
ever be named who wanted the world to know what was going on in their
country. It didn't get out any other way.

SEACREST: Rick, in Washington. How did you get in to get this video?

SWAIN: Actually, most of the video was shot with an open camera. And as
someone mentioned earlier, you don't want to be caught with an undercover
camera in mainland China. But we posed as fur wholesalers and product
marketers, saying that we wanted to develop a new product line and we were
looking at the capabilities of these individual companies to supply that
product. And in this case it was fur, and we had them show us virtually
every fur they had. We happened to be interested in the less expensive fur,
which was dog and cat.

SEACREST: Let me show you some more tape, now -- dogs being readied for
slaughter. Again, a viewer warning. It is tough to watch. Rick, you can go
ahead and narrate this a little bit, too. When was this exactly, this video
that we're seeing, and where specifically again?

SWAIN: This is Harbin in 1998, 1999 and what you're seeing is -- Harbin
is in northern China, it's very cold and it's a very popular place for
harvesting dog and cat fur because the coat gets so thick and again it's the
economic situation. It's about -- if nobody bought this product it wouldn't
be happening.

SEACREST: Congressman Kucinich -- 1998, what were you doing? What
happened then? Because the push for this legislation came about -- and it
was passed quickly.

KUCINICH: It was, after we saw the Humane Society investigation results,
and a weatherman in Cleveland by the name of Dick Goddard, took up the
banner. I worked with him. I created, with the help of some of my
legislative friends -- 98 members of Congress signed on to the Dog and Cat
Protection Act -- and we incorporated that into a trade bill and got it
passed.

SEACREST: Does 1998 seem late (INAUDIBLE)?

KUCINICH: 2000 is when the bill actually passed.

SEACREST: But that was the investigation -- I mean, that seems late. Why
not sooner?

KUCINICH: Because it was the first time that somebody was able to get in
with a camera, and once the films started to be shown, people all over said,
We've got to do something about it. That's why members of Congress became
involved. And I was privileged to be one of those, working with Jim Moran
and others, who carried the ball. Congressman Kleczka from Wisconsin,
Congressman Crane from Illinois -- we all came together in a bipartisan
efforts, closed ranks and said, We're going to stop this, and we folded the
Dog and Cat Protection Act into the trade bill in 2000. And now we have a
ban in the United States.

BALDWIN: I just want to mention, quickly -- I would imagine -- and you
can speak to this, but this has been my experience. But animal protection
issues and animal rights issues are tough to get on the legislative agenda,
because a lot more important things, people presume, are happening in the
country right now with the war and the economy.

It seems to me that animal protection issues always --

KUCINICH: I think that what we both know, and what we all know here is
once the public understands what's happening --

(CROSSTALK)

MCCARTNEY: We need to use America as a role model to get a ban in Europe,
because all that's happened is everything that was coming to America is
coming right over to Europe, and so the animals are still being skinned
alive, it's not just about -- OK, they're not coming in here. If you care
about the animals, they're still being skinned alive and they're still being
pushed over to Europe and we need to push on Europe to use America as an
example that this can be done, and be done very quickly.

SEACREST: Rick, did you have something from Washington?

MORAN: It's Jim Moran. SEACREST: It's Jim.

MORAN: Let me first say that if more of my colleagues were of the heart
and mind of Dennis Kucinich, this would be a much better world to live in.
But that experience in '98 with Dennis' leadership, to think that a law like
that could be passed within the small scope of a couple of years and signed
by President Clinton, means that it's all that more inexcusable for the
European Union to not take such action itself.

The European Union can make an enormous difference, because after Russia
it's the E.U. now that imports the most dog and cat fur and they really have
no excuse now not to take that lead. And they have seen the same video. The
European parliament has passed it, so that's the next step. But beyond that,
I think in the United States we could deal with higher penalties for
mislabeling. For example rabbit fur, or wild cat is often domestic cat,
Asian jackal is often domestic dog.

We could do that and we could eliminate that $150 cap. Those would be
some refinements. But the main thrust of today's program has got to be that
the E.U. really needs to stand up and do the right thing for the rest of
Europe.

SEACREST: Point taken. We're going to get a break and come back. More on
this very enlightening conversation after the break. You're watching LARRY
KING LIVE on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SEACREST: Back with LARRY KING LIVE. A tough topic tonight. A very
interesting hour, but definitely tough to talk about.

Let me ask you, Alec, why is it important for Hollywood to create
awareness, to get involved with issues like this?

BALDWIN: Well, I work in this business now, in this day and age in which
we have the almost fully-evolved model actress. You look at the culture and
in the music business, as much as the film and television industry, as you
well know, where women and what they wear is a role model to millions, if
not tens of millions, of young people out there. And most of the actresses I
know want to be on the covers of magazines as models, just like most of the
models want to be in film and television as actresses.

So this style quotient and how that speaks to generations of young people
is of incredible importance. Now, PETA has done a good job -- and this is
one of the main reasons I work with an organization like PETA -- of tracking
that cultural impact in this country in the entertainment industry, as to
who wears fur and why and who's selling fur. And PETA has had situations in
which people have disavowed fur and then they turn around and two, three,
five years later, they're advertising, they're wearing fur in a video of
theirs and so forth.

So people in my business, especially women, especially young women who
are on the covers of magazines and so forth, they have a tremendous amount
of influence on their audience and what they wear, and I think that this fur
issue is something that -- it keeps popping up every now and then in the
culture.

And number two, the thing that keeps coming back to me is that, in this
society, what really resonates with the dog and cat issue, I think, from
China, is that, in our society, people's relationship with animals has
become very, very compartmentalized. Most people, the realtionship they have
with an animal is either as a pet, as an animated figure in a motion picture
or an idealized live-action figure in a motion picture -- which is all kind
of unreal -- or as a cooked meal on a plate. They don't have any ongoing
day-to-day relationship with animals in any way. Animals are something
that's over there in another zip code that other people are tending to.

You used to have a relationship with the man that butchered your meat 100
years ago. You knew these people. Now, your food is all being prepared by
people that you never know and you never see. And it's all done on faith,
with the government intervening on your behalf, hopefully, with the USDA.

And my point is, is that this issue with China resonates with a lot of
people because many people have a dog and a cat; they have a pet.

SEACREST: Right. It's a domestic animal, dogs and cats.

BALDWIN: It is a domestic -- that's unfortunate that it's taking the
light off of the electrocution techniques that have been used on foxes and
minks for years. This has been --

SEACREST: This hits home in a mainstream way.

BALDWIN: This hits home with people because millions upon millions of
people in this country have a dog or a cat as a pet, and when you show them
this footage of what's being done in China, how they're abusing these
animals, it hits home with them.

SEACREST: Let me roll some more video -- a look at some of the awful
conditions dogs live in.

Rick, tell us about what we're looking at here.

SWAIN: What you're seeing is this is how the dogs are kept, bred, et
cetera, and one of the reasons the fur is so cheap is because they need so
little care. They commonly carry them in these sacks, whether it's a dog or
a cat -- that's the traditional method of carrying them and I think it
protects the carrier, etc.

SEACREST: Is it true that Golden Retrievers are also involved in this --
German Shepherds -- that they're skinned, and they could be -- these
products could be sold using their fur right now?

MCCARTNEY: Absolutely. In Europe, definitely. But since the ban's come in
in America, there is no proof being found. You'd have to go in every single
shop and DNA test everything.

SEACREST: We've talked about the E.U. a lot and Europe. What is a
consumer to do if they're in doubt -- they don't know -- they bought
something, they don't know, maybe it says faux? What do they do?

MCCARTNEY: If you're in doubt, you can't have it proven to you 100
percent, don't buy it. It's not there -- you're not climbing Mt. Everest.
Even the people that climb Mt. Everest climb in Gore-Tex. It's purely for
fashion. So make your heart-felt choice. Do you want that fur-lined pair of
gloves so desperately you're willing to risk the fact that it could be dog
and cat fur, or do you not care and you have to live with that karma.

SEACREST: Alec, as we wrap up tonight, your final thought and point?

BALDWIN: I think that, rather than having people worry about dog and cat
fur in less expensive fur items -- because as I said earlier, this issue
about dog and cat fur importation from China takes the light off of the
overall fur issue -- and rather than have it be just isolated to the dog and
cat issue, I would encourage people that if you really want your conscience
to be clean on this issue, don't buy any fur of any kind in any product at
any price ever, and then you won't have a problem.

SEACREST: Congressman Kucinich, what do you do from here?

KUCINICH: We look at the law and see if we can tighten it up. We also
look at getting the Chinese embassy involved. They made a statement earlier
that this isn't something they really advocate. Well, let's not just take
them at their word, let's sit down with them, come up with a plan that would
stop this practice from happening in China or any other place, and also see
if they would be willing to submit to inspections where we would be able to
verify the progress that they seem to like to make.

MORAN: Well, I am sure that there are going to be some of your listeners
-- viewers, Ryan, that will think we're all out there on the fringe, caring
so much about dogs and cats but I would urge them to just reflect on the
role, the interdependence, we humans have with dogs and cats.

For example, blind people and their dependence upon German Shepherds and
other seeing-eye dogs, the fact that the elderly live so much longer if they
have a dog or cat as a pet -- studies show that. At the dawn and the dusk of
life, children's relationship with their pets and seniors relationship with
their pets mean so much.

And these are the same kinds of animals are being so needlessly and
cruelly slaughtered. I think it affects everyone and I wish that we would
get a mass mobilization throughout this planet to end this kind of cruelty.
SEACREST: And Rick, thank you very much for sharing that video. It is, as we
said all night, tough to watch, but it makes an impact and we appreciate
that.

That is our show tonight. We hope something good comes of it. Thanks as
always to Larry King for letting me borrow his chair for the night. Stick
around now as the news continues right here on CNN.

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