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The Rational Response Squad is a group of atheist activists who impact society by changing the way we view god belief. This site is a haven for those who are pushing back against the norm, and a place for believers of gods to have their beliefs exposed as false should they want to try their hand at confronting us.

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RRS takes a hard line, even against moderate religionists.

Posted on: January 3, 2007 - 1:37pm

Iruka Naminori

Posts: 1955

Joined: 2006-11-21

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RRS takes a hard line, even against moderate religionists.

I'm still trying to decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm pretty sure I would have never questioned my beliefs had I not been exposed to moderate religionists; however, I wonder if my family would have gone along with the fundamentalist fanatics had the moderates not provided cover.

I'm trying to get the opinions of a lot of different atheists. For obvious reasons, I don't give a shit what the theists think.

Someone on another forum had this to say:

Quote:

Dawkins is making a rather bad mistake.

He seems to be missing the fact that people cannot just let go of belief. He also seems to be thinking that just because he is right everyone will listen.

Moderate religion serves our purposes in a very important way. Our society is a large slow moving entity. It cannot shift quickly. Moderate religion is a dead end but it is an important transition point. Any religion that is not fundamentalist is a dying religion that has shifted to being more about tradition than about the belief.

It is not belief that is the threat. It is fanaticism. And you need someplace compatible for the fanatics who are becoming disillusioned to retreat to or they will be forced back into their fundamentalism.

This is a critical notion in strategy. If you do not give a person a way out they will be forced to go through you. Moderate religion has to be our ally. They embrace the concepts of tolerance and diversity. This is far more important than being right. To accept that others may differ with you but should be respected is a more important social construct than getting the existance of God right or wrong.

Plus as people open themself to more ideas rigid beliefs are even further eroded. So the moderates cannot stay in one spot for very long. They are truly in transition.

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I'm still trying to decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I'm pretty sure I would have never questioned my beliefs had I not been exposed to moderate religionists; however, I wonder if my family would have gone along with the fundamentalist fanatics had the moderates not provided cover. I'm trying to get the opinions of a lot of different atheists. For obvious reasons, I don't give a shit what the theists think. Someone on another forum had this to say:

Quote:

Dawkins is making a rather bad mistake. He seems to be missing the fact that people cannot just let go of belief. He also seems to be thinking that just because he is right everyone will listen. Moderate religion serves our purposes in a very important way. Our society is a large slow moving entity. It cannot shift quickly. Moderate religion is a dead end but it is an important transition point. Any religion that is not fundamentalist is a dying religion that has shifted to being more about tradition than about the belief. It is not belief that is the threat. It is fanaticism. And you need someplace compatible for the fanatics who are becoming disillusioned to retreat to or they will be forced back into their fundamentalism. This is a critical notion in strategy. If you do not give a person a way out they will be forced to go through you. Moderate religion has to be our ally. They embrace the concepts of tolerance and diversity. This is far more important than being right. To accept that others may differ with you but should be respected is a more important social construct than getting the existance of God right or wrong. Plus as people open themself to more ideas rigid beliefs are even further eroded. So the moderates cannot stay in one spot for very long. They are truly in transition.

My own mother just last week never understood the hatred aimed at us by Christians untill I showed her the Youtube video of that jerk calling us scum. Now she understands why I take the stand I do.

HAVING SAID THAT.

Although we are unafriad to speak out and we do blaspheme religion, it is not because anyone here wants to forcably end religion. From a pragmatic standpoint that is a stupid idea for anyone of any label to consider.

HOWEVER, atheists are justified in their anger. Not at the fact that people believe, but because they use those beliefs to justify treating us as evil. Because they think we are incapable of compassion, or caring or love.

We are going to take that word back and give it back it's simple original meaning from the Greek meaning, "Without god(s).

We are no longer going to put up with hatred toward us. I do not recomend hate speech laws or hate crime laws to institute thought police to do such through OUR goverment. Merely to rally the non-believers to take a stand against anyone who blindly condemnes us without getting to know each individual.

The Christians that are not afraid of us and are willing to get along with us and do not see us as a threat we do appreciate. But they have to understand that we cannot and will not put up with people calling us evil or demonizing us anymore.

Generation after generation humanity has saught a foe, and most of the time the foes we create are within, not because someone wants to actually harm us, but because we refuse to see each other as individual autonomous human beings with individual thoughts.

Native Americans and blacks in Americas early history went on to Irish in the North in 1900 allong with the condinued discrimination of blacks, then it went to gays and in many places there is still that unfounded needless fear of them.

We are simply the next popular target in a long string of humanity's inability to see others outside the label as human.

Most atheists I know, and I cant speek for all, are not interested in the forcable end of religion. Most are confident if freee inquery and debate in an open market of ideas, will be able to show people who we really are and what positive things we are about.

BUT if any person thinks they will ever silence us, or that we are subhuman, or that we should shut up. You will be dissapointed. We'd rather be nice and debate freely. But we wont ever back down from bigotry or deception!

You want to be friendly, we can do that. But dont call us evil and dont treat us like scum. WE WONT PUT UP WITH THAT ANYMORE!

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

BUT if any person thinks they will ever silence us, or that we are subhuman, or that we should shut up. You will be dissapointed. We'd rather be nice and debate freely. But we wont ever back down from bigotry or deception!

You want to be friendly, we can do that. But dont call us evil and dont treat us like scum. WE WONT PUT UP WITH THAT ANYMORE!

Yeah! What he said!

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

"Forcing" anyone to do anything is totally counterproductive. I know because I was forced to do a lot of things for the first 18 years of my life: lots of FUNDY things. Barf. By 1989 I was no longer a Christian, but my atheism only completely solidified following the attacks on 9-11. Of course, a lot of incidents, study and deep thought had gone into the decision previously.

One reason I'm concerned about moderate and liberal Christians is they were the first to cause me to question because they don't believe in biblical inerrancy. I ran across these people at a Christian university and fought against their pacifism and religious/political liberalism for four solid years. I was obnoxious. Now, many years later I agree with many of their political positions, but totally tossed religion out the window. I don't think I could ever be a pacifist, either. I like violent video games too much. I don't necessarily fall into line on all liberal political issues. I learned to dislike dogma too much.

My main concern is I don't know if I would have listened to a hard-line atheist like Sapient (or my current self, for that matter). I had enough trouble with the moderate / liberal theists. I was thoroughly immersed in fundamentalist Christianity: home, church, school, friends. There was not a single facet of my life that did not revolve around fundy Christian principles. When I got the first taste of an alternative view--liberal Christianity--it sent me reeling. (Today I'm pretty pissed off about the brilliant brainwashing job perpetrated against me by my parents.)

During those college years, I would have sounded like the angry theists that come here to rant. I'm not sure why I don't feel much compassion for them. I guess I'm still pissed off at the indoctrination.

Because there is a very emotional component to my atheism, I want to tread carefully. I've always hated extremism (if that isn't an oxymoron in and of itself), so I don't want to be pulled into an extremist position.

Of course, a very large component of my atheism is based on logic, as well.

I am mostly concerned that taking a verbal hard-line position against moderate Christianity would be self-defeating because fundies often need to become moderates before they can become atheists. This is illustrated in Dan Barker's book, Losing Faith in Faith. Mr. Barker became a moderate Christian before he was able to completely toss away the yoke of theism.

I'm concerned that you aren't giving theists a place to stop and rest before they go that extra mile.

I'm wondering...how many here are former Christians? Did you become an atheist immediately or did you become a moderate Christian (or Pagan or Wiccan or whatever) before you felt comfortable enough to make that last step? I know of a lot of ex-fundies who retreated to moderate Christianity or some other less obnoxious religion.

Maybe RRS is forcing the moderates to examine their beliefs. Maybe such a hard-line position makes theists so defensive they'll never abandon irrationality. *shrug*

My own opinion is that theism (and all supernatural claims) are irrational. When I dropped that bombshell on a nominally Christian friend of mine, she became rather defensive. She believes that faith is a legitimate path to knowledge. Of course, any rational person realizes that's total bullshit because if faith led to knowledge there wouldn't be a bazillion different religions. Sigh.

Tell me more to elucidate your positions.

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That was very nicely written and yes, I do understand your position, as well as that of Dawkins and Harris. We know that religionists are irrational, but perhaps some must leave religion in stages. Perhaps some cannot leave it at all. Would it not be better to have moderate religionists rather than fundies?

I am not convinced that religion can be ended completely. Too many people need it as a crutch. My mother, for example, is batshit crazy. She's a fundy and has obnoxious, dangerous beliefs. But I think leaving religion would possibly kill her. She's given so much of her life to a lie that I'm not sure she could deal with the loss. Hell, I'm having trouble and I got out years ago. Having one's world view shattered is a psychic emergency.

I've heard Sapient say that it isn't up to reality to replace a theist's god delusion. Yes, that's true. But leaving really can be a (forgive the allusion) soul-shattering experience. I lost all my friends and never found new ones and it wasn't through lack of trying. I lost any chance to ever be truly close with my family. We were always dysfunctional, but at least we had religion and politics in common. Now that I've sacrificed that for the sake of seeking truth, everything is a potentially touchy subject. I sought the truth, came out as an atheist. Mostly I've been harassed and ostracized as a result.

Can you really expect others to sacrifice so much?

There are times when I get really impatient with theists and call them "cowards" in my mind, but when I remember all I faced to seek truth on my own, I wonder if I could do it again. If everyone could just say, "Yeah, okay, religion is bunk. Let's find another way to socialize," perhaps it would be easier. But I don't see that happening any time soon.

I've reached out to other atheists, but can't find many in my local community. And of course, just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean I'm compatible with them either as a friend or something more.

It's been hella frustrating and in the back of each theist's mind, he or she knows what will come down the pipes if the dare is taken: dealing with the reality that there is probably no afterlife; complete loss of a coherent world view that must be built from the ground up; complete loss of all social networking; estrangement from friends and family. It's a pretty fucking hard thing to face.

Maybe if more atheists come out, it will get less hard, but I did it alone and it was so. fucking. hard.

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Well, my ultimate goal is not so much the erasure of religion, as I believe evolution is taking care of that for us. I'm just doing my part in the long run. And, in all honesty, I could care less what people believe in generally. If people want to exercise their imagination by believing in a god, that's fine. Everyone has their own escape from reality.

My real problem with religion is that it negatively affects others in multiple ways. That it is forced on everyone without their consent. The very calendar is a theistic disgrace. Do an in depth look at your immediate surroundings and you'll find a thousand different ways religion has snuck into your life against your will. This is what I intend to stop. If people don't like it, then they should stop being hypocrites and help me and others like me. My side is guaranteed to win, as we have the global majority. We even have theists working for the goal, since the theism being forced on them is against their own theistic beliefs.

Once religion has stopped being advertised so sneakily, and being presented as fact at every corner, I'll relax. The rest will work itself out. This is still unlikely to happen in my lifetime, but I will not stand around being lied to without speaking up against it.

The problem with moderates is the fact that they pick and choose what to adhere to, but at the same time make claims of justification for tolerance of choice.

We don't allow children over the age of 16 to believe in santa clause do we? We don't allow even small children to believe that they can breathe underwater after watching cartoons do we?

Why not? Because we as humans are altruistic creatures concerned for the entire well being of other human beings. Even if we do react harshly towards these examples. This is why moderation of religion should still be considered proliferation of fundamentalism.

The problem with moderates is the fact that they pick and choose what to adhere to, but at the same time make claims of justification for tolerance of choice.

Yes, I understand this. In my opinion they betray faith and reason equally. However, I'm wondering if moderation is useful for society because 1) it gets fundies to question their ethics (which it did for me) and 2) it is a place to which religionists can retreat to catch their breath.

I'm worried that if we expect them to do "all or nothing" they will do nothing. I'd rather have religious moderates than the bigots I've dealt with for most of my life.

Chase wrote:

Because we as humans are altruistic creatures concerned for the entire well being of other human beings.

We'll have to save this topic for later. I've lost my "faith" in Homo sapiens.

Chase wrote:

Even if we do react harshly towards these examples. This is why moderation of religion should still be considered proliferation of fundamentalism.

So, I guess I'm weighing the benefits of moderation (partially listed above) against its many flaws (also partially listed above).

Convince me that religious moderation's flaws are fatal flaws and that taking a hard-line stance can be as productive (or more productive) than allowing religious moderates to address their fundamentalist counterparts, which they do.

The first chink in my wall of faith was put there by religious moderates. I'm not convinced I would have listened to an out-and-out atheist. I'm also not convinced that fundies can be converted straight to atheism without stopping off for awhile in moderate-land (or some other less legalistic religion). I think most of them may need to retreat in small steps. Many (most?) deconversion stories I've heard included time spent as religious moderates.

Unless a study is done, this is all purely anecdotal, I guess. Could we at least do a head-count here and other places on the net? I believe this may be an important consideration, if for no other reason than to understand the psychological aspects of deconversion.

Believe me, I'm entirely on your side. There's a bloody good chance faith is going to get us all fucking killed. I'm just not sure that a hard-line approach is terribly productive in converting the religious.

One thing the hard-line stance does is shore up the "choir." I think more people will come out of the closet. Richard Dawkins gives me a great deal of hope. I thoroughly enjoy listening to him and I'm sure many of us have thought, "That's just what I've always wanted to say!"

Is this part of it enough? If atheists become more organized, that's great. Of course, there will be one helluva backlash.

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"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - August 27, 1987?

Who said that? George Bush. And where were the 'moderates' then, demanding that George retract such an asinine and abusive statement?

When Catholic 'moderates' fund Catholic NGO's to work in Africa, who indoctrinate villagers against condoms for birth control - where are they when it comes time to look after the HIV-infected orphans, and where will they be when the AIDS epidemic reaches the point when an entire continent is threatened with devastation?

When a 'moderate' xtian thinks that his church should be divided into two segments over the issue of allowing women as priests and allowing same-sex marriage... where does it stop?

Are atheists right to take a hard line stance on moderates / apologists? Absolutely. When moderates agree to stop voting, I'll agree to leave 'em alone. I'm sorry if this sounds nasty, but the bottom line is that moderates allow immoderate behaviours by virtue of their moderate position.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Because we as humans are altruistic creatures concerned for the entire well being of other human beings.

----Because of that statement alone, you have really seemed to learn very LITTLE from your existence. Is it not so hard to believe that in fact:

A:No Human(other then your mother) really could care less about your "safety"

B:A society has given us ALL reason to not care about each other.

If you can't take that, under NO religious circumstances, or Scientfic, but maybe as a completely NATURAL statement, then is it really a no fucking brainer that Christians HAVE been dominating the world for a long time?

None of you are thinking about the fact that, your fundamentalist mother CANT and WONT think like you, not because she wants to be ignorant, but because EVERYONE has been telling her that what she believes in is CORRECT.

So What exactly are you atheists really trying to do in this world? Deconvert Christians? Because none of you are succeeding. Have any of you deconverted a Christian, or a Muslim? Why do you even want to deconvert them?

Don't ANY of you realize that the ONE COMMON thing in all of these WORLD religions, IDEA and EMOTIONS that are PERMANENTLY engraved in all of their head... do any of you see that the COMMON GOOD GOAL is for the BETTERMENT of HUMANITY and for the worship of GOD?

So think of that. And then ask yourself, that if there WAS a world religion under the idea that...hey, there might be a God and there might not be, and let them keep their convictions.. then--

Why won't these GOD worshipers WORK TOGETHER? Can any of you answer that to me? And don't tell me that its because Jehova hates Allah. Because then, you just insult my intelligence.

Can't any of you see why I HATE ALL PEOPLE. Because all us are so FUCKING IGNORANT.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.

no, i think you hate all people because you have something psychotically wrong with the way your brain is working. man, you are just all over the place, aren't you.

the betterment of 'humanity' is not the goal of any religion. that's just the weak veil they use to put a positive spin on all the hate and war-mongering. much like the weak veil of compassion and love that Brian37 tries to put on atheism.

Ripple, I seriously think there is something wrong with you. I'm not saying that to be a smartass. You literally aren't making sense. Your responses are completely off-topic and sound like stream-of-consciousness rather than well-thought-out questions or responses. If you can, for a moment, stop and think about that. When someone in another thread suggested you sound manic-depressive, I'm not so sure it was intended to be funny. You do sound manic. I am not a manic-depressive, myself, but I have and do suffer from other issues involving brain disorders.

Usually when I'm at my worst, the things that hurt me the most cause me so much pain that I cannot think rationally about them. To me you sound like you want the answer to life, the universe and everything (it's "42" by the way ) and you want it now. You're going to need to find your center before you can proceed further.

With that in mind, I'm not going to respond to your posts because I think you need something besides rational debate right now.

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No, man. I don't want it now. Because I know I'll have it when I die. That's a personal, religious conviction I'm worth fighting for, and that is the only conviction or belief I'll ever have.

As for being all over the place, no I'm not really.

I too believe the answer to the universe is 42.

What if I told you I have no emotion, no desire to do or seek anything in this world, other then to make some of you think.

What Is my center in life? It's the same center Albert Einstein had.

----Where, when, how, and does God meet Science?----

Call me fucking Crazy, and call Einstein crazy, but then, isn't Science and God as ONE idea, ONE conviction, ONE religion...Is that really Crazy? Yeah a little. But the world has not gotten very far if all crazy people were never born.

(I know there is something wrong with me, it's called being a pacifist, can't you see that I want to just go on a rampage right now)

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.

Ahh but the betterment of Humanity IS the goal of Religion. That's what every single practicing Buddhist and Christian is told their whole life. They are making the world a better place.

I'm simply asking you guys to take a step back, take a deep breath, and really think what religion has been used for in this world.

Has it better humanity? I think we can all agree, NO.

So what is there to do about religion? Erase it from the history books? Will that make the world better? If you think so, then you are no better then any one of those Christian contemporaries who DID ban the book Fahrenheit 451. Gosh guys, I mean can I get an answer on this from some of you... what is YOUR goal in life? what is YOUR vision for the world? No religion? Then just Imagine, and things might come true. But does that really mean God can't be apart of such an imagination? If you think he can't be apart of that vision, then please

--TELL ME HOW and WHY--

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.

Maybe if more atheists come out, it will get less hard, but I did it alone and it was so. fucking. hard.

That's what I'm doing.

I have no delusions about converting hard-liners. It will be at least a couple of generations at a minimum until there can be a real hope of diminishing the power of Christianity and the other big religions.

I experienced a very similar set of emotions when I left religion, and I'm trying to encourage other atheists as much as de-convert Christians. I'm convinced that there are many, many more atheists than most people imagine! I want my boldness to be an encouragent to them, and I also want to prod some of them out of complacency by demonstrating the danger of religion.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

You need to get yourself to a health professional and see about getting yourself on some meds. You sound completely manic.

Understand that this is the only post of yours I'm going to respond to, mainly because I can't figure out what you're trying to say, but I want you to know that I agree with these folks. You sound like you need help. Please get it, for your own sake.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

I'm convinced that there are many, many more atheists than most people imagine!

I think you're right. I had one friend say to me, "I'm an agnostic, but sh! Don't tell anyone!" She was afraid the choir director would find out. Me? I told the choir director directly, "I'm an atheist." After we agreed not to discuss religion, he tried to convert me when I was at a low point in my life. I lost all respect for him and learned that I cannot be friends with fundies. The agnostic mentioned above had me thinking I could.

The "agnostic" moved out of the area, but says she wishes she could believe in god. She said she used to wish she had been indoctrinated until she saw that it didn't "take" with me. Whatever.

I've decided that religion and faith cause people to behave like assholes. I'm through with the faithful, at least when it comes to personal relationships. And I think my "agnostic" friend needs a wake-up call. She was great at minimizing both the negative effects of religion on society and upon me as a recipient of brainwashing. I've sent her a few Dawkins and Harris videos, but there's been no response.

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People like your agnostic friend need to see that there is actually life outside of religion, and that there is a large community of normal people who will accept them.

The fact that people are afraid to reveal their feelings about skepticism should send off alarm bells in the mind of anyone who's studied history. Can you think of any governments that we describe as "good governments" that suppressed the expression of free thought?

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

Ahh but the betterment of Humanity IS the goal of Religion. That's what every single practicing Buddhist and Christian is told their whole life. They are making the world a better place.

you've just unwittingly agreed with me. it's not the goal of the religion, it's just what its followers are told so they'll feel like what they're doing is right and good. if i could go around shitting in people's mailboxes, and convince other people that by shitting in their mailboxes, they'd be doing their part to better the world, would that make the world a better place?

the bible says that by killing everybody that doesn't believe in it, its followers are making the world a better place, and furthermore, that we don't have to concern ourselves too much with bettering the world, really, because if we fuck up the whole planet, and we all die, it's ok, that's just called armageddon, and though it may seem horrible, it's really just big ol' smilin' jesus, comin' for to carry us home....

Quote:

So what is there to do about religion? Erase it from the history books?

nope. just stop participating in it. it's lunacy. the history books will say "21st century, Lunacy Ended." and we'll all be like ,"rad, weren't we all so lame back then?" and have a good laugh.

Quote:

Gosh guys, I mean can I get an answer on this from some of you... what is YOUR goal in life? what is YOUR vision for the world?

the 'world' is not a piece of clay for us to mold. it's just here for us to live on and act like idiots. and thus, we end up with you and me.

So Brian...after a long history lesson that you seemed to have taken, you seem to realize that by turning the tables, and using HATE against a cause, well that's going to make everything better.

Well good job man. You came up with a lot of good thinking. You are just sooooo better then everyone else. Give me a break.

Listen dipshit, the great equalizer in life is death and taxes. Anything beyond that is debate. So, dont pussyfoot around the subject. YOU have a claim you believe is real.

Enough with dodges, you want to play in the big leagues, do so. But for you to accuse me of being pious is the bigist pile of shit this site has ever seen. You dont know anything about me. You don't know all the flaws I have and constantly admit to.

So it boils down to one thing. EVIDENCE! Be it Allah, Yahwey or Jesus or Superman.....

Pick your poison, either way I will not buy your story any more than you should if someone came up to you and said, "I have a purple snarfwidget who makes kegs of beer for me under my bed"

My standard response for rediculous claims is simple "PROVE IT".

You have a claim and a story. SO WHAT! So do all the other 6 billion people on this planet. So the best way to guage reality is the story of YOU? If piety had any hand in self centerteness Religion would be the lubrecation.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

no, i think you hate all people because you have something psychotically wrong with the way your brain is working. man, you are just all over the place, aren't you.

the betterment of 'humanity' is not the goal of any religion. that's just the weak veil they use to put a positive spin on all the hate and war-mongering. much like the weak veil of compassion and love that Brian37 tries to put on atheism.

Nice cheep shot. I know what I am doing. You must be a left wing pollitically correct hate speech fan. I do have compaasion for lots of things, pollitically correctness is not one of them. You cant force people by law to like you. No one put a gun to your head and forced you to post here.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

So Brian...after a long history lesson that you seemed to have taken, you seem to realize that by turning the tables, and using HATE against a cause, well that's going to make everything better.

Well good job man. You came up with a lot of good thinking. You are just sooooo better then everyone else. Give me a break.

You come on this board without knowing me personally and make statements like that shows your ignorance.

THAT COMPASSION you so desperately want is contingent on protecting free speech. You start making laws banning certain speech people rebel. That rebelion causes conflict which causes people to do inhuman things. Banning "offensive" speech is what dictators do. Protecting free speech even when it is "offensive" is condusive to human nature. WE ALL LIKE TO COMPLAIN. Just like you are doing to me right now. Should I make a law banning you from criticing me?

My first duty is not to any atheist or any Christian. My first duty is to the Constitution. Without it people like you would take rights away from Christians and atheists by stupidly and ignorantly trying to force them to go against their human nature.

Mature people put the responsibility on themselves to control their physical reaction to what they see and hear. Inmature people want goverment to be their nipple.

YES I DO HAVE HATE IN ME. I hate the fact that humanity wants to scortch the planet I live on. Forgive me for giving a shit about not wanting the home I live on used as a giant game of capture the flag.

No I dont think I am better than anyone else. I fart, crap and pee and will croak just like every other human. But if you think I am going to play nice with everyone all the time just because YOU are uncomfortable with the way I do it. TOO BAD! Go tip your pinky at someone else.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

Until "Ripple" hijacked the thread, I was getting some interesting feedback. Please ignore Ripple if you can. It's pretty damn hard to ignore a personal attack, but I was enjoying the arguments supporting your points of view.

Would it be okay to invite atheists at other sites to contribute to this discussion? I would like to get a range of opinions to help me process own position. *shrug*

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On RRS taking a hard line against even moderate religionists: "I'm still trying to decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing."

There's an intellectual cowardice seen amongst Progressives, Humanists, Freethinkers, Democrats, ‘the left’, and others at odds with the deluge of religiosity in 21st Century America that thankfully doesn't seem quite as cowardly here at RRS.

In a genuine quest for equality and freedom for all, religious and otherwise, too many are ignoring a most dangerous and primary characteristic of religion: it's inherent intolerance. Religious adherents or faith-based believers are inherently intolerant. Those who hide behind the myth of neutrality in tolerance are too often afraid of intellectual engagement that itself tolerates the intolerant.

There’s an intellectual cowardice about the very nature of religion itself . All too many ignore the rational reality of not just devout Judeo-Christian western societies, but Islamic ones as well. Religion depends on and demands intolerance because of it's basic requirement for an adherent's obstinate and unreasoning attachment to religious faith-based beliefs unfounded in fact. Intolerance is needed for indocrinaton and continued adherence to religious dogma. If believers are not intolerant of other religious beliefs or non belief, these faith-based adherents do not remain devout members of their religion.

Religion by its very definition is faith [unfounded on fact] with a dependence on a supernatural deity controlling the destiny of its believers. By religion, I mean just what Webster’s New Word Dictionary defines religion as: “(1)belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe; (2) expression of this belief in conduct and ritual.” Intolerance, dogmatism and bigotry in monotheism all leads to an endemic behavioral problem because religion requires the devout believer to be be intolorant and attached to dogmatic beliefs of their religion with a narrow-minded intolerance towards beliefs opposing them.

The trait of flexibility, which is so essential to proper emotional functioning, is blocked and sabotaged by religious belief. For the person who dogmatically believes in god, and who sustains this belief with a faith unfounded in fact, which a true believer must, clearly is not open to change and is necessarily bigoted.

Hence the ‘us versus them’ adversarial dogma found in any devout religious believer. It is an adversarial dogma the believer needs in order to support their dependency on a naive childlike belief system based on a figment of their own imagination. It is NOT a benign belief however, for the deeper the dependency, the more adversarial the dogma to the point of violence, as evidenced by religious adherents today and throughout history.

Democracy, permissiveness, and the acceptance of human fallibility are quite alien to the true believer and religious adherent. They can only believe that the creeds and commands of their particular deity should, ought, and must be obeyed, while anyone who disobeys these creeds is an infidel or is going to hell.

Religion, with such black and white absolutes from fictional god-given standards created by religious leaders, must make the adherrent self-deprecating and dehumanized when the err; and must lead them to despise and dehumanize others in an intolerant and bigoted fashion when they act badly. This kind of absolutistic, perfectionistic, bi dimensional thinking results in the two most corroding human emotions: anxiety and hostility.

Just because life is so uncertain, and because millions of people think that they cannot handle the changes and uncertainty life offers, the believer invents absolutistic gods in pretending there is some final, invariant answer to things. Fooling oneself with such delusions stagnates growth and maturity. It is like the fatherless child dreaming up an imaginary father while insisting that this dream-father actually exists. Unfortunately it is the devout faith-based religious believer in their imaginary skygod father-figure that suffers in the 100s of millions from this mass form of delusionary pscyhotic insanity. Resulting in insane behavior causing a far worse level of mass chaos in the world; past, present and sadly, for the future. Unless it’s stopped cold.

Tolerance is a trait that the firm religionist cannot possibly possess. “I am the Lord thy God and thou shalt have no other gods before me”, saith Jehovah. Which means in plain English, that whatever any given god and his clergy believe must be absolutely, positively true; and whatever any other person or group believes must be absolutely, positive false.

To tolerate religion is to tolerate intolerance. Meaning one must be rationally intolerant of the religiously intolerant. One cannot rationally be tolerant of religion and religous beliefs and behavior because religion and faith based beliefs by their very nature are intolerant.

So for all the Non-theists, Liberals, Secularists, Progressives, Humanists, Freethinkers and others that may find themselves at odds with the deluge of religiosity and religious wars still facing this world in this 21st Century, use your critical thinking skills to contemplate how and why you’re being an intellectual coward in tolerating religion and faith-based belief systems reeking havoc on humanity…

If there was a God, Man wouldn't have had to invent him [reversing Voltaire's famous quote].

People like your agnostic friend need to see that there is actually life outside of religion, and that there is a large community of normal people who will accept them.

The fact that people are afraid to reveal their feelings about skepticism should send off alarm bells in the mind of anyone who's studied history. Can you think of any governments that we describe as "good governments" that suppressed the expression of free thought?

We say this time after time and still get equated to Stalin and Hitler. We do want people to speak freely about religion, but not in a preachy sense. Worshiping anything like that, be it religion or a goverment or a dictator is all the same blind sheepish behaivor and causes nothing but division and opression of those outside the majority.

"Question with boldness even the existance of God, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear". It really ticks off theists that an atheist quotes this person. I wont say who it is because I'd like the theists out there to do their homework.

First theist to give me the name of the person who said that gets a congratulations.

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I think we need the full spectrum of approaches, from the subtle to the in-your-face, the gentle to the aggressive.

Different believers will respond to different arguments, different angles on the problems of belief. And as an individual starts to work their way thru the process of shedding their beliefs, they will respond to different ideas.

And Ripple, of course people have been de-converted by the sort of arguments presented here.

Personally, it seems to me that more often than not people who bring up the subject of tolerance are simply using a PC term to whine about having what they believe challenged. Disagreement is NOT intolerance, and it is sad that this has become the general perception of the majority of people when looking at beliefs outside of their own.

I utterly fail to see how simply disagreeing with or challenging a belief or world view is being intolerant of it. I, and the RRS, tolerate your view and your right to hold that view; we merely think you hold that view in a completely indefensible and irrational fashion.

Being intolerant of your view it seems to me would involve us working in some fashion to punish you for holding that view or prevent you from holding that view - we do no such thing.

Dissent and discourse is healthy, not intolerance.

We ARE more in your face and provocative than others (and make no apologies for that), but that should simply come down to a matter of taste and style - not message or motive.

It's been joked about before, but it has been said that the RRS is the Malcom X of atheism; whereas others may be better likened to MLK. Personally, in regards to civil rights (and I do think we are on the cusp of an atheist civil rights movement) it takes both approaches.

What is abundantly clear is that the approach the non-believing community has taken in the past has not worked. We've been marginalized and demonized for far too long. The RRS is simply standing up and inviting you to do the same.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

Point of fact being that there are some atheists (and theists) who advocate socialist or communist modes of governance - I happen to vehemetly disagree with them.

I'm not intolerate of their views; in all honesty, I wish to debate their views with blunt and honest discourse. That's not intolerance, it's saying lets have an honest discussion and put our cards on the table.

It seems that ONLY when the subject of religion is brought up that mere dissent is viewed as intolerance or intolerable. For some reason we cannot argue about religion as frankly as we would politics, economics or even sports. This is the taboo we wish to obliterate, the free pass we wish to revoke.

If that bothers you as a religious person, you ought to consider frankly why it bothers you. Then you'd better put on a helmet and get used to it.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

Point of fact being that there are some atheists (and theists) who advocate socialist or communist modes of governance - I happen to vehemetly disagree with them.

I'm not intolerate of their views; in all honesty, I wish to debate their views with blunt and honest discourse. That's not intolerance, it's saying lets have an honest discussion and put our cards on the table.

It seems that ONLY when the subject of religion is brought up that mere dissent is viewed as intolerance or intolerable. For some reason we cannot argue about religion as frankly as we would politics, economics or even sports. This is the taboo we wish to obliterate, the free pass we wish to revoke.

If that bothers you as a religious person, you ought to consider frankly why it bothers you. Then you'd better put on a helmet and get used to it.

An economy not based on free market will fail, over time. So in that, capitalism will always be apart of any government that wishes to survive. I do however agree that capitalism consumes us as a race. Quite sad if you ask me...

I know not of who your post is directed to, Yellow, but I could only guess it's directed near me. I think the definition of intolerant can vary wildly.

Aye, I agree that the members on this board are very provactive, no matter how little effective it's been upon me. The fact is, most religiously convicted people who might even attempt to come to a a place like this will get a good toast to reality.

The fact is, the only sustained argument that I keep getting on why I'm irrational is because I can't prove something such as God.

In that, the taste and style of such provocation has been of a decent effort, it still falls very short of shaking my foundation.

Man's foundations shake and crumble when built upon ancient framing.

So I please ask anyone, to just one more time tell me I have a "security blanket" or that I need some force to push my life. Every single one of you has not a clue to what pushes me in life, and for that, to make such claims of that any longer is futile, and would be a waste of finger calories.

What do you mean Atheist "civil rights" movement. Are you kidding? Have your rights been violated, and been intolerable by the rest of the world community, especially being someone who I would assume lives in the United States(I may be wrong)

Why would you even care to start something even a fraction as dramatic as a "civil rights movement"? Do you have something to prove?

I'm all for a world based in KNOWLEDGE. I do have something, and conviction to prove there. But I also realize unknowledge is not soley in the hands of diety-believing people. The fact is, people are people, no matter what they do or do not believe in.

I merely state that there are so many atheists(not many on these boards) that differ no more then any other religious nut. Yes, an atheist may break free of the illusion which is a man's creation, But the fact that many people, atheist or theist, will believe anything as long as the vast majority believes in it.

Science for instance. I'm sure every single one of you base the roots of all existense in science. Science is a wonderful thing in that it clearly defines the world as we know it. All fields of science mesh seamlessly in a web of grace and intellect, in which nearly every thing that we know as reality, mends together in perfect unity.

I however, am hard pressed to think that no more then...4 percent of the world population has even began to ask why. It seems that even most "scientifically based" people of this world have really no more of a grasp upon the scientific world then their theological buddies.

In this, I state that many atheists(not many on these boards) hold their convictions of truth to be in something only because a book told them so.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.

In all this, I guess all I'm trying to say is that, yes, maybe effective on the weak minded, but to think that to convince most of the world that they are wrong, only because they can't prove it..well, good luck.

I think the only approach to such a thing would be to first make people look at things in a clear way. This does not mean they have to give up their religion. That is ridiculous to ask of such. But to suggest to just clearly think..well that I think is not a monumentous task. In this as well.. goodluck.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.

Sure, Vastet, post a topic in the "Libertarian Corner and Other Politics" section. It's been a while since I've spanked a Marxist

I'm not a Libertarian or a Marxist. My political views are still developing. I tried to stay out of politics, but it got impossible when shrub misused the power he gained from 9-11 to basically screw us all in the ass.

Another problem is that I developed serious health problems that prevented me from working. SSI Disability isn't enough to live on, so I have to depend on my fundy mother to live. It's really screwing with my mind. I don't know how much longer I can do this...all I'm thinking is there should be a way for me to have my independence regardless of my ability or inability to feed the capitalist machine.

The coldness of free market politics makes me wonder if there isn't a better way. Communism wasn't the solution. It seems like people want power and money too much no matter what kind of economic system is in place.

God...I'm so sick of this.

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I can certainly understand where you're coming from when you say that atheists are justified in their anger; I couldn't agree with you more. On my website I was speaking out for a bit more moderation in our "battle" with religion, but then I wrote a piece on activism and ended up mad as hell. There are indeed those who are out to forcibly silence us and dehumanize us, and when it comes to those people, to hell with the moderate stance - the gloves need to come OFF.

My only big concern in all of this is that we do our best not to drop to the level of these messed up individuals and organizations who are demonizing atheists. I'm going to harp a lot about the report I heard on NBC (via YouTube) that RRS's next big project is the 'recycling of Bibles.' Religious zealots burn our books; if we 'recycle' their Bible, which in itself is not an 'evil' book by any means, we become them. I don't want to be them. I want to be better than they are, and take their power away with the use of reason. I hope I can get this message through in time.

I can certainly understand where you're coming from when you say that atheists are justified in their anger; I couldn't agree with you more. On my website I was speaking out for a bit more moderation in our "battle" with religion, but then I wrote a piece on activism and ended up mad as hell. There are indeed those who are out to forcibly silence us and dehumanize us, and when it comes to those people, to hell with the moderate stance - the gloves need to come OFF.

My only big concern in all of this is that we do our best not to drop to the level of these messed up individuals and organizations who are demonizing atheists. I'm going to harp a lot about the report I heard on NBC (via YouTube) that RRS's next big project is the 'recycling of Bibles.' Religious zealots burn our books; if we 'recycle' their Bible, which in itself is not an 'evil' book by any means, we become them. I don't want to be them. I want to be better than they are, and take their power away with the use of reason. I hope I can get this message through in time.

I am concerned with going overboard, too. It's SO easy to do when one has been through so much at the hands of fundies. I get very, VERY angry. I've been getting angry online and in person, which hasn't won me any friends. It's like I can't help myself. Something inside never got healed. The story is long and complicated, but I got totally screwed over by family and friends. There's still a very uneasy relationship between my family and me. Except for one cousin, they are all bushbots, fundies or a combination of the two. I live in a Republican / fundy stronghold. Luckily, more and more non-fundies are moving to the area and some of the fundies are leaving.

But this is still the site of my indoctrination. I can't drive by the Southern Baptist Church without having flashbacks of being molested. I can't go into the library without having flashbacks of my so-called "friend" trying to cast a demon out of me and telling me not to come back until I trusted Jesus to solve my problems. That ex-friend's fundy mother works in the library. The town is so small, I see someone I know every single time I go out. I run into people constantly who knew me as a fundy.

My status as an out-of-the-closet atheist has put me in a lot of awkward situations. I've had strangers lay hands on me. My mother called my therapist to tell him I was demon-possessed. She later tried to have me committed to a mental institution because I told her to get the fuck out of my life (she was driving me insane). She once abducted me and drove me all around the county, a captive in her car, for "taking the Lord's name in vain." My music professor tried to re-convert me in his basement after promising never to do such a thing. A strange woman recognized me and asked me if "Lori was walkin' with the Lord." I hadn't seen "Lori" in ten years...and what the hell kind of question was that???? I said, "I hope not." What a conversation stopper! My music theory class hates me because I brought up my lack of belief...whoops. I can't keep my mouth shut about religion. I really have come to hate it. And religionists HATE me.

It has been beyond painful.

This is just a sampling of what those fucking religious assholes have put me through. Is it any wonder I want religion wiped off the face of the earth? What must refugees from Islam feel? Their very lives are in danger if they dare to speak out and make no mistake, our Talibornagains would have us all by the short hairs, too, if they could get away with it.

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An economy not based on free market will fail, over time. So in that, capitalism will always be apart of any government that wishes to survive. I do however agree that capitalism consumes us as a race. Quite sad if you ask me...

i agree and dissent.

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I know not of who your post is directed to, Yellow, but I could only guess it's directed near me. I think the definition of intolerant can vary wildly.

It was not directed at you, it was a rant. It's very TELLING that you feel it was aimed at you.

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Aye, I agree that the members on this board are very provactive, no matter how little effective it's been upon me. The fact is, most religiously convicted people who might even attempt to come to a a place like this will get a good toast to reality.

We do what we can.

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The fact is, the only sustained argument that I keep getting on why I'm irrational is because I can't prove something such as God.

And you fail to see that as totally and completely damning? You're making our point. Change God in the above to Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or Thor. Now realize how silly you sound to me.

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In that, the taste and style of such provocation has been of a decent effort, it still falls very short of shaking my foundation.

You cannot shake a true believer, that's part of the poison you believe int.

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Man's foundations shake and crumble when built upon ancient framing.

So why not your's?

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So I please ask anyone, to just one more time tell me I have a "security blanket" or that I need some force to push my life. Every single one of you has not a clue to what pushes me in life, and for that, to make such claims of that any longer is futile, and would be a waste of finger calories.

I know why you beileve, for I believed at one time myself. It's a VERY powerful thing. I don't fault you for it, not in the least. To fault you would be to fault myself.

I know why you cling to your god. I know what it feels like to rationalize the absurd - for I've done it.

Knowing that, I don't ask anything more of you than to simply take a step back and think about what you believe from a persective that hasn't been taught to you. Consider Christianity from an ancient Greek's POV, from a Muslim's POV, from an atheist's POV. Do that and simply be honest with yourself - you'll find we aren't so different. I think you'll also find that your beliefs don't have much merit. I did.

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What do you mean Atheist "civil rights" movement. Are you kidding? Have your rights been violated, and been intolerable by the rest of the world community, especially being someone who I would assume lives in the United States(I may be wrong)

Our rights have not been violated in the sense that we are routinely taken outside and beaten for our beliefs, but that said, we actually are taken outside and beaten or even murdered for our beliefs on occasion. It happens.

More so, there is an obvious stigma against atheism that must be addressed.

I'm talking about a civil rights movement in the sense of simply standing up and saying "we exist, and there are more of us than you realize". Little else. I aim to make it socially acceptable to be an admitted atheist - it current IS NOT. I aim to make is socially acceptable to VOTE for an out athiest for national office - it currentently IS NOT, and in fact antiquated laws technically prohibit an atheist from hoding public office in several states and locales.

I don't claim to have nearly the burden that homosexuals of African Americans have had to endure in our coutry (in fact the limited tolerance we do enjoy is probably due to those who have fought before us) - it's much easier for us to cower and hide in the face of such biggotry. The atheist ALWAYS at least has the option of cowering and blending in - we're good at that, hatred and loathing has made us good at that.

We've cowered and blended in for far to long though. We represent a significant portion of this population. There are actually more of us than there are Jews in this country - yet Jews are generally well recieved and have a great lobby in the US government. I'm saying, civilly speaking, we are going to stand up and represent ourselves and our beliefs and not cower in the shadows out of fear of reprise any longer. You see the beginnings of this in the Blasphemy Challenge.

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Why would you even care to start something even a fraction as dramatic as a "civil rights movement"? Do you have something to prove?

Did homosexuals or blacks have "something to prove" when they simply stood up and said "I exist"? You can down play it all you want, but it really IS the same thing. You've never lost a job or a close friend because you were an atheist - I have. Plenty of other atheists have had that done to them and worse. Plenty simply have to put up with being the most hated and misunderstood minority in our country. Plenty are simply afraid to even let people know what they believe - can you even imagine that? I'm sure you can't.

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er, am hard pressed to think that no more then...4 percent of the world population has even began to ask why. It seems that even most "scientifically based" people of this world have really no more of a grasp upon the scientific world then their theological buddies.

In this, I state that many atheists(not many on these boards) hold their convictions of truth to be in something only because a book told them so.

I know what you are trying to say, but I honestly fail to see the parralle. You are trying to make a point about dogma (IOW both the religious and nonreligious have it) I'm sorry, but I honestly no longer have any such thing in my life.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

Wow, sounds like you have escaped from DEEP within 'fundy' territory. I am very, very sorry to hear of your trials, and that is quite the understatement. The stance these people have DOES need to be wiped off the earth completely. I agree with you.

However difficult this may be to accept, I ask only that you consider that not every single religionist on earth is of the fundy camp. Granted, their belief system is irrational, inconceivable, maybe even outright ridiculous, but some of them - SOME of them - just want to believe in their God and do right by the world. For those practitioners, debate and discussion are an open option. For the 'fundy,' the answer will always be activism. I stand against Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells, Paul Crouches, Benny Hinns, and every single religionist who practices extremism or fundamentalism. Let's focus on the real bad guys, and hope every one else can be given salvation through Reason.