On September 10 2019 01:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:So like any topic serral is part of you mean? It's always the same discussion, always the same "bickering" there as well regardless of any "bonjwa talk". You just don't like that topic, that's all

The discussion may be similar but Serral keeps winning. His list of achievements, victories against koreans included, keeps increasing over time and his placement on a GOAT list gets higher; thus said, I agree with you: Serral is closer to be a Bonjwa(last words I'll say about that Wax, I apologize, I just had to reply) than he is to be GOAT at the moment.

On September 10 2019 01:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:So like any topic serral is part of you mean? It's always the same discussion, always the same "bickering" there as well regardless of any "bonjwa talk". You just don't like that topic, that's all

The discussion may be similar but Serral keeps winning. His list of achievements, victories against koreans included, keeps increasing over time and his placement on a GOAT list gets higher; thus said, I agree with you: Serral is closer to be a Bonjwa(last words I'll say about that Wax, don't worry, I just had to reply) than he is to be GOAT at the moment.

This was purely based on wax's argument that the topic which shall not be named introduces "bickering" which in the end has to be closed, i think it is fair to say that any serral topic introduces a very similar discussion regardless. That's all!

Obviously i agree that additional achievements help to make an argument for a placing on this imaginary goat list. Another wcs win in particular doesn't seem to help a lot though, at least that is how i see it.

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On September 10 2019 01:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:So like any topic serral is part of you mean? It's always the same discussion, always the same "bickering" there as well regardless of any "bonjwa talk". You just don't like that topic, that's all

I find 'bonjwa' talk to be qualitatively different, from years of observing TL.net forum debating in the post-savior years

AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?

On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote:Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic

But can we argue about him being GOAT?

That much I have to reluctantly allow as long as you don't get into personal insults against each other

Also I asked Serral how he feels about his PR placements solely to meme some of you regulars, and obviously, he gave me a polite, generic response (basically 'whatever')

LMAO!

I can hear it, I can hear it!

Did that "polite and generic" answer just happen to be something along lines like:

On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote:Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic

The gap this tournament really solidified for me is not the gap between Serral, Reynor and the rest which was already pretty apparent, but the gap between the top 8 and the rest. It's pretty crazy that Drogo, uThermal, Lambo etc couldn't even make the slightest dent in the top 8. I guess Stephano did beat TIME, but that was basically the only upset?

On September 10 2019 03:48 ZigguratOfUr wrote:The gap this tournament really solidified for me is not the gap between Serral, Reynor and the rest which was already pretty apparent, but the gap between the top 8 and the rest. It's pretty crazy that Drogo, uThermal, Lambo etc couldn't even make the slightest dent in the top 8. I guess Stephano did beat TIME, but that was basically the only upset?

Exactly.

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On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote:Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic

But can we argue about him being GOAT?

That much I have to reluctantly allow as long as you don't get into personal insults against each other

Also I asked Serral how he feels about his PR placements solely to meme some of you regulars, and obviously, he gave me a polite, generic response (basically 'whatever')

I look forward to reading the interview, please send Serral my warmest regards and congratulations for his success.

On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote:Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic

On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote:Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic

Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).

I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.

The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.

Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.

Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.

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Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).

I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.

The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.

Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.

Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.

Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.

If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.

offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)

On September 09 2019 22:56 Waxangel wrote:Okay I'm asking the 'bonjwa' argument to be shelved starting here (as forum mod), because I foresee the semantics arguments about the word becoming too vitriolic and derailed from this actual topic

Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).

I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.

The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.

Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.

Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.

Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.

If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.

offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)

Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.

Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.

BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)

if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.

Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).

I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.

The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.

Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.

Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.

Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.

If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.

offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)

Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).

I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.

The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.

Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.

Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.

Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.

If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.

offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)

Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.

Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.

BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)

if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.

Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).

I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.

The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.

Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.

Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.

Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.

If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.

offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)

Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).

I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.

The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.

Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.

Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.

Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.

If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.

offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)

Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.

Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.

BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)

if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.

How do you get that? Seems to me that all the big career Koreans have offline winrates against Koreans above 60%. Adding to your list: Stats, Maru, Mvp, Taeja, PartinG, and herO are all above 60%.

Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.

End Region Lock, not WCS | "I saw what sneakyfox wrote on TL.net and it made me furious" - PartinG

Even Jaedong (who is not a bonjwa) in 2009 season won, 2 OSL, WCG and 1 MSL (won MSL in 2010 but season started in 2009). That's 3/6 Starleagues and a WCG. He also had around 70% winrate in 2009, which no SC2 player has accomplished (if you are talking about offline Korean winrate, which is the best comparison). Speaking of winrates, FlaSh, Jaedong and BIsu respectively had 71-72%, 67-68% and 65-66% career winrate. To my knowledge, only person in SC2 with a remotely comparable career winrate is Innovation who is around 62%. Evidently, great Brood War players were much more dominant than great SC2 players (I'm not sure why).

I think the reason that Brood War players were able to be more dominant is multi-fold.

The game itself rewarded skilled mechanics more than SC2. Sure, there were "build order wins" in certain matchups if one player chose one strategy and the other player randomly chose the counter, but a great player could nullify most build order advantages with immaculate play. Brood War demanded so much attention that it was easy for a mechanically weaker player to lose ground even if they were ahead. Being ahead in Brood War just meant that you had many more things to manage, and limits on the number of units in a control group made moving around large armies very difficult. These difficulties are not as great in SC2.

Even so, I recall that come-from-behind wins were rare in Brood War, so it had to be more than just that. The situation in the KeSPA era was an intense rivalry among a small and fairly stable group of players. This intense competition meant that often one or two players would rise to the top. These rivalries (like Flash-Jaedong) would motivate both players to practice even harder in order to beat their rival. The fallout from this was that players like Flash and Jaedong would typically just mow through anyone else who was not at their level.

Of course none of this explains how Flash managed to dominate so solidly both then and now. I don't think anything in the universe can explain Flash.

Not exactly true. WHile SC2 is volatile game it's not that much volatile. Top players will have a high win rate over a long period of time.

If you take players with roughly 500 matches then Aligulac says that offline Maru 2010 - dec1 until today is is 747–453 (62.25%) in games and 350–181 (65.91%) in matches. Inno is at 883–486 (64.50%) in games and 413–187 (68.83%) in matches. Both Life and Mvp are inbetween (67 ish in matches, although both don't have that big of a sample). Classic is nearing 66 % too. These are huge sampes, almost all the players are above or nearly above 500. Parting 66 %(almost 68 % before the return). sOs 66 % with growing wr when we go back in time(as he's not that good in LotV). herO 64 %, 66 % if we limit the time to similar time frame of sOs(2016). And most of the games are vs Koreans.

offline Serral is 668–321 (67.54%) in games and 247–88 (73.73%) but sadly I don't know how to remove the foreign stats. It will be interesting where it will grow but his numbers are big because of the WCS. WCS would inflate any of the top Koreans(let's not pretend they wouldn't, there's a reason why so many top Koreans are favored against most foreigners)

Edit> I must say that Inno numbers are quite impressive. Over 600 matches, WR almost 69 %. Most of that from Korea. Respect.

Edit2> Taeja is at 285–132 (68.35%), pre-2016 256–103 (71.31%). Nice.

BTW removing lower foreginers off Serral records would remove his "pre professional" games too, so don't start rambling too soon (although with significantly lowered pool each loss will have a bigger impact)

if you want to check on aligulac, you can click player's match history and then for country, change it from "all" to "South Korea." If you look at most of the players you listed, their winrate against foreigners inflated their overall winrate a lot. There are actually very few players with career winrate over 60% vs Koreans offline. Inno, Classic, Life, Rain, Dark and sOs are the only ones I'm aware of (and I checked a lot of players). In fairness, among Brood War players with 60%+ winrate, there's only Effort, Jaedong, Nada, iloveoov, Stork, Bisu, Flash. But that said highest SC2 offline Korean winrates are shared by Inno and sOs at 62% while Jaedong, Bisu and FlaSh all had considerably higher winrates.

Inno's career offline winrate against Koreans is 65.61%. I don't see how you get the numbers you present.