Answers

Well, as best I can plan, yes, I've become self-reliant.

Have I forgotten something? I'm sure I have. Do I have last minute
items? Yep.

Have I locked in my family's loyalty and safety by planning for and
providing for them? I hope so, but that is iffy. I really eased my
son's mind this week by inviting his lady to my house from the mid-
south. She is very worried about the Y2K situation.....

If you don't calm down Randolph, you're going to stroke out before
THE CRASH OF THE MILLENNIUM even hits. Maybe we are on our way
to another depression, but there isn't a whole lot any of us can do to
prepare long term.

Look at it this way, people survived the last one, I'm sure we'll
survive another one. My mother got married at 16, started a household
and gave birth to the first two of her kids during the last one. She
didn't live on a farm and had nothing in the way of "preparations",
but she made it.

As far as the relatives...don't worry just like death and taxes, they
will never go away.

You are right, we will muddle through, but it will be nice to have
done some stuff to prepare as best we can. I'd hate to start
survival gardening with my bare hands. And I think my goats and
rabbits and pigs and chickens will help a lot.

Mabel, don't be so cavalier. "Things were different back then" is more true that anyone can appreciate. A large percentage of people DID have rural farms to go home to. Fully self-sufficient farms at that.

Imagine a computer dependent world that no longer will trust its computers. This is more than just failing companies and losses of jobs.

Anyone who collects a wage will appreciate the premise behind Crash
of the Millennium: Wages are too low, relative to the growth of
productivity, and thus we're in for a global economic disaster. Who
would've thought that being underpaid would have such awful
repercussions? Batra, an economics professor at Southern Methodist
University in Dallas, has a long history of mostly accurate
predictions. He predicted a major depression in 1990, which turned
out to be just a recession, but also had quite a few hits: the rising
stock market in the '80s, falling inflation and real-estate crashes
in the '90s, and assorted wars and other upheavals.
As the 20th century comes to a close, he avers, a handful of long-
term trends are coming to a disastrous climax: too much government
spending, too much consumer credit, too many monopolistic industries,
too much wealth staying at the top in the form of high corporate
profits and unprecedented stock prices, and too little trickling down
in the form of wages. He also tells you what to do to minimize your
losses in this disaster: Sell stocks and bonds. Forget about real
estate as an inflation shelter. Park your money in bank certificates
of deposit. If you have to speculate, buy gold, silver, or platinum.
It's radical advice, but Batra backs it all up with numerous charts
showing historical patterns of inflation and speculative bubbles. And
he candidly admits he has no idea where all this will end up; his
advice merely applies to late 1999 and the first two years of the new
millennium. Is he right? We'll know soon enough. --Lou Schuler

From Kirkus Reviews
Batra's second attempt to explain why the economic sky is falling,
and when. Batra (Economics/Southern Methodist Univ.) received
widespread attention for his prediction of The Great Depression of
1990 (1987). In his new book, he repeats some of his previous
arguments, many based on mainstream economic theories and sound
investment guidelines. He argues, for example, that the present state
of the stock market is a ``speculative bubble'' and, like get-rich-
quick investment fads in the past, is due for a major comeuppance.
Another serious danger theme is the impending Y2K crisis, which will
coincide with an economic crash in the fall of 1999. The author is
not fearful of combining predictions with dates and typically
presents his arguments with historical examples and his major weapon,
an almost religious belief in the regular, measurable rhythms of
economic cycles. Although most modern economists have abandoned this
concept, Batra embraces it as a fundamental principle; for him,
economic tides not only wash in and out on predictable timetables,
they are an infallible tool. With the next depression, this natural
tide will replace our flawed economic structure with something
better, for as he states, ``Crony capitalism is about to go the way
of Soviet communism.'' Replacing it will be Prout, an acronym for a
new socialist system derived by Batras mentor (but so quirky it might
have been invented by Karl Marx on LSD). Prout is an economic,
political, and social structure as well as a philosophy and clearly
defines the politics of the author. For those taking his predictions
to heart, he also includes a list of suggestions for weathering the
difficulties he describes. The best way to evaluate this title is to
recognize that ``the Great Depression of 1990'' didn't happen. In his
latest book, the author not only dodges any blame for being wrong, he
claims even greater prescient powers because of his previous
reasoning. (Author tour) -- Copyright )1999, Kirkus Associates, LP.
All rights reserved.

Book Description
It's remarkable how often the predictions of economics professor Ravi
Batra have proven prescient. Years in advance he predicted the rise
of fundamentalism in Iran, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the decline
of communism, the stock market crash of 1987, and the September
market slump of 1998. The one time Batra seemed to get it wrong was
with the prediction of his best-selling book, The Great Depression of
1990. As it turned out, that depression was postponed by massive
borrowing from abroad, and what we now face will be all the worse for
the delay.
The premise of this book is as simple--and as powerful--as the law of
supply and demand. In the United States, as in many other countries,
we've been producing more and more goods, but wages have not kept
pace. That disparity has been papered over by credit cards, easy
loans and a huge speculative bubble in the stock market, but cracks
are appearing in the walls. Russia, the "Tiger" economies of Asia,
and Latin America have been hit hard recently, and Batra predicts
similar tough times ahead for the United States. It will begin with a
stock market crash in the fall of 1999, followed by a depression made
doubly damaging by rising inflation. Its effects will reverberate
through the early part of the coming decade.
In The Crash of the Millennium, Professor Batra describes how
individuals, businesses, and governments can prepare for the
hardships that lie ahead. And he tells us how, for those who survive,
the future beyond the dark horizon holds decades of prosperity and
peace.

From the Back Cover
"Ravi Batra has made an outstanding reputation in the United States
as an international economic theorist in the best Western tradition."
--Leonard Silk, New York Times

"When it comes to the bottom line so beloved of economists, one can
learn a lot about events by thinking about them in cyclical
regularities,
of which Batra gives a novel and brilliant exposition."
--Lester C. Thurow

"The forecasting record of this widely respected Southern Methodist
University economist has won glowing praise from many pragmatic
investment masters."
--Tom Peters, Chicago Tribune

"Batra is a scholar who has earned a considerable reputation as an
expert on trade."
--Albert Crenshaw, Washington Post

"Scary, provocative. The good professor has a formidable academic
reputation and, from what I know, his forecasting record is
impressive."
--Barton Biggs, Morgan Stanley & Company

"Ravi Batra was used to making tumultuous global forecasts and having
nobody listen--then predictions started to come true."
--Chip Brown, Associated Press

"His predictions in the early 1980s of low inflation, falling oil
prices, and a wave of mergers--mocked for years--have proved close to
the mark."
--Thomas C. Hayes, New York Times

About the Author
DR. RAVI BATRA, professor of economics at Southern Methodist
University in Dallas, is the author of five international best-
sellers. Chairman of the department from 1977 to 1980, Batra was
ranked third among forty-six "superstars" selected from all-American
universities by the learned journal Economic Inquiry. In 1990, the
Italian prime minister awarded him a Medal of the Senate for
correctly predicting the downfall of Soviet communism.

For a little balance, here is an excerpt from the Ludwig von Mises
Institute site regarding the good doctor:

[Reprinted for educational purposes, etc. yadayadayada]

[snip]

During the mid-1980s, one of the kookier things I as an economist and
a sane person had to deal with was Dr. Ravi Batras monster best-
seller The Great Depression of 1990, published by Simon and Shuster.

Dr. Batra prophesied--er, I mean forecasted--that the year 1990 would
begin a cataclysmic, seven-year, world-wide depression. If there was
anything good about this disaster, he said, it was that it would
bring an end to the capitalistic system, and thus usher in a new
Golden Age.

Upon the first sign of weakness in the stock market in late 1989 or
early 1990, Dr. Batra warned us to sell all our stocks and bonds. He
said we should empty our retirement accounts, even though there would
be penalties for early withdrawal. And he rhetorically asked, Can
you trust banks at all? He also warned business people to get out of
long-term investments, and to get into the repair business.

The reason Dr. Batra was taken seriously was that he was lucky on a
couple of wild predictions. I call this the first law of forecasting.
When youre a nobody out to make a name for yourself, what you do is
this: Make a wild forecast. Predict something nobody else is
forecasting. The odds are, it wont happen. But, if it does, youll
be the only one to have forecasted it.

GOD promised the prophet Zechariah that in the last days, he would be
a protective wall of fire around his people: "For I,
saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about..."
(Zechariah 2:5).

Likewise, Isaiah testifies: "For thou has been a...shadow from the
heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a
storm against the wall" (Isaiah 25:4). s (4:6).

These promises are meant to comfort us beforehand - because all the
prophets warn of a great storm coming in the final days,
which will beat against God's wall of protection with ferocity!

Indeed, Jesus says this coming storm will be so frightful and
overwhelming, people's hearts will fail them as they see it
developing (see Luke 21:26). Now, if Jesus says this storm is going to
be ferocious, we can know it will be an awesome
moment in history. Yet, the Bible assures us God never sends judgment
on any society without first revealing to his prophets
what he plans to do: "Surely the Lord will do nothing, but he
revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets"
(Amos 3:7).

This is a marvelous expression of our Lord's great love for his
people. And if you study the biblical prophets' writings carefully,
you'll see that God acts this way consistently. Just prior to an
impending storm of judgment, he always commands his prophets
to warn the people to return to him: "I have also spoken by the
prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and...by the
ministry of the prophets" (Hosea 12:10).

Moreover, God is faithful to speak in times of prosperity, just before
the fury of his judgment strikes. While the storm clouds are
still gathering, he raises up prophetic voices all over the land. And,
according to scripture, whenever a sinful nation was
prosperous and at peace, God told his prophets to warn that the good
times soon would end: "...the Lord hath cried by the
former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity..."
(Zechariah 7:7).

At times God made his message so strong, he instructed his spokesmen
to issue cutting, searing warnings: "Therefore have I
hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my
mouth..." (Hosea 6:5). In other words: "The word I
bring will be so clear, it will smite you if your heart is open at
all. It will cause you to fall on your face and repent!"

We always have to keep in mind, God's only purpose in lovingly calling
us back to himself is to protect us in such times of
storm. Yet often in biblical history, when he gave these warnings, the
people refused to listen: "He sent prophets to them, to
bring them again unto the Lord; and they testified against them: but
they would not give ear" (2 Chronicles 24:19).

Almost always, God's people grew weary of these warnings. This was
especially true if a prophet cried out about a coming
storm over a period of years, but the society only continued to be
prosperous and at peace. Over time, the people simply
switched off the prophet's voice. They simply didn't want to hear it
anymore.

We see this in the Israelites' response to the prophet Isaiah. They
told him: "...Prophesy not unto us right things, speak
unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits" (Isaiah 30:10).

Can you imagine ever falling to such a condition? These people knew
Isaiah was telling the truth - that a great storm was coming
- but they got tired of hearing about it! They preferred to hear
"smooth things." And the Hebrew word for "smooth" here means
"pleasant, unperturbed." They were telling Isaiah, in other words:
"Don't preach anything to us that will upset the status quo or
make us nervous!"

This very condition is creeping into the church of Jesus Christ today.
Believers who have been devoted to Jesus for years now
turn on their television sets only to see more horrible reports of
violence, disasters, hunger, crime, immorality. After a while, their
minds become satiated with all the bad news, and their hearts become
hardened to it. To them, even the worst news reports are
"just another news story."

I often wonder: Can anything move us anymore? We've already heard
every type of bad news we could possibly hear. What
disaster or calamity is left that could shock us?

Beloved, God is appalled by this kind of response among his people! We
see this in the warnings of the prophet Ezekiel. At the
time Ezekiel prophesied, Israel was prosperous and at peace with the
surrounding nations. Yet the Lord told Ezekiel to give the
people this message: "I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp
of her strength shall cease; and the mountain of
Israel shall be desolate...because of all their abominations which
they have committed" (Ezekiel 33:28-29).

The prophet went up and down the land, preaching God's warnings over
several years. But the people grew weary of listening
to him. After all, over the years not one of Ezekiel's words had come
to pass. On the contrary, the nation only grew more
prosperous!

Over time, Ezekiel's prophecies became a source of entertainment for
the people. They began calling him names behind his
back - names that were probably similar to the ones I've been called
over the years: "Doomsday preacher," "The man who
never smiles," "Mr. bad news." Finally, Ezekiel finally got fed up and
said, "Lord, you've deceived me. Nothing you told me has
come to pass. And now everyone's mocking me!"

"...(Israel is) saying, "Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word
that cometh forth from the Lord. And they come
unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people,
and they hear thy words, but they will not do
them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth
after covetousness...they hear thy words, but
they do them not. And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,)
then shall they know that a prophet hath been
among them" (Ezekiel 33:30-33).

Let me ask you: Have you come to the place where you've said in your
heart, "I've already heard itall! I don't want to hear any
more!" If so, beware!

As it Was With All Past

Societies and Church Bodies,

The Church Today Is in No

Mood to Receive Bad News!

The majority of churchgoers today soundly reject all prophetic
warnings of a coming storm. Indeed, the American church today
is the most blatant "feel good" church in all of history. But, like
Israel, we're only experiencing the calm before the storm!

While Moses spent forty days on the mountaintop, Israel indulged in a
spirit of lawlessness. The people wanted to play and
relax, so they abandoned all godliness. You remember the result: It
ended in a drunken, naked orgy around a golden calf.

Likewise today, Christians by the multiple thousands are casting off
the yoke of Christ, tossing aside all limits and restrictions.
This attitude is prevalent in many of the books and magazines you find
in Christian bookstores. It's almost as if our leaders are
saying, "Relax! God isn't hard. He's our Daddy, we're all his kids,
and we're meant to have a good time. Don't let anyone
disturb your fun!"

A few years ago, three pastors of large charismatic churches publicly
stated they believed God would use rock-and-roll and
rap music to bring in the next great revival. One of these ministers
even declared that God used the Beatles to open people's
hearts to the Holy Spirit. No - never! Those young men glorified sex
and drugs. How could that ever be the work of the Holy
Spirit?

One Christian magazine predicted that the next big movement in the
church would be a "nightclub" approach - including
services that feature dancing, "near-beer" alcohol, and comedians. One
pastor told me this is already happening in churches
throughout England and Europe. The churches can't hold the people's
interest - so they turn them into nightclubs!

In addition, many "sinner friendly" churches in America now serve
coffee during their morning services. The people sit with their
feet propped up on chairs, never standing up for worship. At one such
church, a visiting gospel singer was advised not to sing
anything that mentioned sin or Christ's blood, because it might offend
the visitors. That church's leaders were trying to create a
"comfort zone" for sinners!

You may find it hard to imagine the Israelites dancing naked around a
golden calf. But don't for a second think the same thing
couldn't happen in the church today. Soon we're going to witness lewd,
sensuous, blasphemous forms of religion, straight out of
the pits of hell. Indeed, the Bible says a time is coming when God's
people will no longer blush. And right now, the church's
blush is gone - because we've seen and heard so much already. yet this
is just the beginning!

You may ask - why are so many ministers and believers being deceived?
Why is there so little discernment in God's house?
Why do the most bizarre, worldly movements attract so many followers?
I believe the answer lies in a prophecy form Amos:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine
in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst
for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord" (Amos 8:11). Notice,
this verse doesn't say there will be a famine of
preaching. The fact is, God would never hold back his warnings from
his church - because only his truth can set us free. That's
why he sends his prophets, teachers and evangelists to speak truth to
us.

No, Amos' prophecy is not about all the shallow, light preaching we
hear today; it isn't saying there will be a shortage of truth.
Rather, what the church today is experiencing is a famine of hearing!
There is an unwillingness to hear the true word of God.
Instead, people are closing their eyes and ears, hardening their
hearts, and saying, "I don't want to hear any more!"

I Believe Right Now We Are

Experiencing the Calm Prior to

The Greatest Storm America

Has Ever Suffered!

I first delivered this message as a sermon to Times Square Church on
April 4, 1997. Just two days before that, on Friday,
April 2, the stock market reached an all-time high of over 7,000.

Newscasters and magazines boasted:

"America is enjoying its greatest prosperity ever. Unemployment has
fallen below 5 percent, and there is very little labor strife.
Profits are at an all-time high, and people's purchasing power is up.
At the same time, interest rates are low, and home sales are
increasing. America is riding the crest of a booming wave of good
news, prosperity and peace."

It all sounds like good news, doesn't it? Yet the Bible says whenever
people are crying, "Peace and prosperity!", sudden
destruction is about to fall.

Over the years, I have received letters from people saying, "You've
been prophesying for years about 'gathering storm clouds'
and a 'coming crash.' Yet all you've done is scare a lot of Christians
who trust your word. The truth is, the opposite has
happened. Instead of experiencing a storm, we've seen a boom, with
record-breaking prosperity. There isn't one sign on the
horizon to suggest a coming crisis."

The fact is, the apostle Peter warned that many believers would react
this way: "...there shall come in the last days
scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the
promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell
asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of
creation" (2 Peter 3:3). In other words: "People will say,
'Where's the so-called storm? Everything is continuing today as it
always has!"

Beloved, God has judged every past society for lesser sins than
America's. Consider:

No other nation has killed more babies than the United States has
through abortion. Our soil cries out with the blood of
these children! We'd rather save the life of a whale than one of
our own babies.
America has the world's highest rate of illegitimate pregnancies.

Teenage crime in this country is the highest in the free world.
Americans now spend more money on dog food than on foreign
missions.
We have begun to glorify homosexuality and lesbianism. Our media
applauds the "bravery" of gays who declare their
sexual orientation - but we ought to weep over it! TV's "Ellen"
was hailed as a heroine when she came out of the closet
on national television. Yet at one time, Christians across the
country would have been on their faces crying out to God for
mercy over such immorality.

Network newscasts showed images of half-naked gay women in
Florida celebrating "Lesbian Pride Week." An
estimated 30,000 women gathered to indulge in drunken orgies all
night long for a whole week. And local officials
applauded it, saying, "It's wonderful that they're all together
here." But it must have been breaking God's heart! Radical
homosexuals cry out to society, "In your face!" Yet what they're
really saying is, "In your face, God!"
America has brazenly kicked God out of its schools and courts.
Now there's even a movement to remove his name from
the Pledge of Allegiance and from all U.S. coins. People no
longer want to hear even the mention of his name!

Fifty million Americans now smoke pot, and millions more are
hooked on heroin, crack and other hard drugs.
Our schools have become bastions of blasphemy and agnosticism.
Our children have been robbed of all moral standards,
denied all access to God - and they're reacting by becoming more
violent and rebellious.

Beloved, God destroyed Noah's generation, as well as Sodom, all for
lesser sins than ours. What arrogance to think that while
these societies were judged severely, we might be spared!

Very Soon, America Is Going

To Wake Up to a Sudden News

Report of Calamity - and the

Storm Will Be Upon Us

Suddenly!

The psalmist describes how God's rod of judgment will fall overnight:
"In the hand of the Lord there is a cup, and the
wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same:
but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth
shall wring them out, and drink them...all the horns of the wicked
also will I cut off..." (Psalm 75:8, 10).

In Revelation, this cup is called "...the cup of his indignation..."
(Revelation 14:10). In other words, it's full of God's wrath.
Simply put, America's cup of iniquity is overflowing - and all of our
sins are going to turn into his holy wrath!

You may be saying, "Why do you have to put such a scare into people?
Why shouldn't we just enjoy this posperity while it's
here? You should be glad about all the goods things that are
happening, especially in New York City. Walt Disney has moved
in and taken over the once-seedy 42nd Street. Now all the smut and
porn shops are gone, and everything in Times Square is
family-oriented. There won't be any riots here, as you predict, with
over a thousand fires burning.

Relax, pastor, and enjoy it!"

No - Mickey Mouse can't stop the coming storm! The fact is, Disney
has become one of the world's most corrupt media
systems. Its movies are rife with homosexuality, violence and the
occult. Indeed, such businesses are the very reason God will
send the storm - and it will come quickly!

I remember as a young boy hearing a sudden news report that instantly
changed America's peaceful slumber. Our family was
riding along on a beautiful, peaceful Sunday afternoon to a country
church where my father was going to preach. We had just
stopped for ice cream when a sudden news flash came over the car
radio: "We interrupt this program to bring you this news
report: Japan has bombed Pearl Harbor!" I still remember the look on
Dad's face; he was in utter disbelief.

That night at church, everyone was baffled. "What's happening?" they
wondered aloud. "How could we suddenly be bombed?
In the days that followed, we had "blackouts" in which we all had to
cover the windows in our homes and schools. Everyone
feared a sudden bomber attack!

And, beloved, so it will be suddenly when the storm hits. It will
come like a thief in the night, bringing sudden panic and
disbelief. Right now you may be thinking, "Let it come! If calamity
strikes, I'll deal with it then. After all, I'm in God's hands. I'll
be ready - so I'm not going to worry about it. Jesus will see me
through."

Yet, let me ask you: Why does God tell his prophets to shout their
warnings from the housetops? He wants to warn his people
- to stir us up to seek him! He wants to convict us of all our
attempts to cast off Christ's yoke and cozy up to the world. He
wants us to keep our eyes on Jesus - to seek heavenly things - because
those are the only things that will stand in the coming
storm!

Now Let Me Give You the Only

Hope in the Coming Storm!

Just before his death and resurrection, Jesus stared into the face of
a horrible coming storm. He saw what was just ahead:
Jerusalem would be surrounded by powerful armies, the temple would be
destroyed, the city would be burned to the ground,
and thousands of people would die on crosses erected by the invading
enemy. Their entire society was about to collapse!

Now, Jesus was the very embodiment of God's love. And yet he warned,
prophesied and wept over his society, because he
saw what was coming: "Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved..." (Matthew
24:21-22).

If you think about it, Jesus' day was very similar to ours: Peace,
calm and prosperity ruled. Children played in the streets. There
were no signs of judgment anywhere. Yet Jesus described his society as
a generation of vipers: priests who robbed widows,
scoffers blasphemers, adulterers, child offenders, a corrupt church
full of moneychangers, a ministry filled with wolves in sheep's
clothing, false accusers, liars, cheats, hypocrites, lovers of
pleasure, fornicators, corrupt children. He warned, "You're about
to be surrounded by enemy armies. Now, prepare your hearts - because
there's a storm coming!"

When I first prepared this message, I was overwhelmed by a spirit of
foreboding. All I could think of was the church's terrible
condition and how the devil was using subtle evils to deceive God's
elect. Christians seemed focused mostly on their own needs
- "my needs, my problems, my past, my future - how my parents hurt me,
how the church has wounded me, how my friends
have failed me..." God's people were no longer weeping over a dying
world!

For a while, this truly overwhelmed me. Then the Holy Spirit showed
me how our Lord reacted in the face of the coming
storm. The apostle John writes, "...as he is, so are we in this world"
(1 John 4:17). The simple fact is, we have to have Jesus'
mindset in all things - or our hearts will fail us!

The Bible gives no evidence of Christ being downcast, fearful or
hopeless. He didn't panic or despair. In spite of all he saw
coming, Jesus knew the final outcome. He knew the gates of hell
wouldn't prevail against God's people!

David gives us a clear picture of Jesus' attitude in the face of the
coming storm. He speaks prophetically of Christ, saying, "...I
foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand,
that I should not be moved" (Acts 2:25). The
literal meaning here is, "I was always in his presence, beholding his
face." David quoted Jesus as saying, "Therefore did
my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall
rest in hope" (verse 26). Here is the secret:
Jesus kept the father always before his face!

Jesus continually sought out secret places to be shut in with his
father. And it was only after being in God's presence that Christ
came forth to minister, fully persuaded that his father was always
with him: "He's at my right hand - and nothing on this earth can
move me!" The Greek word for "moved" here means "agitated or shaken,
disturbed." Jesus was saying, "None of these
problems, evils or coming events can cast me down or shake my
confidence. My father is in complete control!"

Beloved, if we're going to face the coming storm, then we need to be
prepared so nothing disturbs our spirit. And the only way
to do that is to spend time in the father's presence, beholding his
face. We have to be shut in with him - on our knees - until
we're thoroughly persuaded he's at our right hand!

God is clearly telling us, "Don't be moved or agitated by anything
you see. Keep your eyes focused on me - and you'll retain
your joy!" And according to David, Jesus testified, "...thou shalt
make me full of joy with thy countenance" (Acts 2:28).

It's as if Christ is telling us, "I faced everything you're going to
face in the closing days of time. I had the same foreboding
feelings, because I saw the coming storm. But I ran into the presence
of my father, and he lifted all my concerns! He showed me
the outcome to it all. And in his presence I found all the joy, hope
and rest I would ever need, to the very end. I have peace and
joy because I've been with him!" "...my flesh shall rest in hope"
(verse 26).

I am by no means a Dr. Batra but about four years ago our local
paper started to print a list of bankruptcies. I remember
the first year the list were about four or five names long and
that included five counties. Over the course of two years the
list began to get longer. The list in last weeks paper had
over 75 names and it has been that long of a list for over
a year now. The state newspaper list of bankrupts is well over
a hundred names every week. As I watched the list get longer I
knew this was a warning and we better wake up!
When I first needed credit, back in the seventies,
it was almost impossible to get. You had to have a spotless
credit history or a co-signer to even start a credit line. It
took me a long time to establish a good credit history and I
was proud of it and myself for reaching that goal. Now credit
is handed out on a silver platter to anyone who can sign
their names.

KOS is absolutely correct. The Great Depression meets Custer's last
stand perhaps! Two different eras will reflect two uniquely different
reactions and very different results. They can't be compared.

We have prepared for 'another' depression which includes preparing
for events that the first depression wasn't capable of creating. The
first one was pitiful and tragic, but most people bucked up and
pulled themselves up by the bootstraps. They were a different breed
living in less troubled times with fewer people. They also possessed
useful and necessary skills. Our current society is soft and utterly
dependent. This one will be extremely ugly and very messy. Don't
forget to add into this scenerio the problems that will be created by
the rest of the planet suffering similarly or worse, at the same time.

I won't discuss terrorist attacks or wars until Randolph is feeling
better. :)

First things first...I don't mud wrestle, but I'm not opposed to
watching, how do you look in a muddy thong??? heh heh

Seriously IMHO, this isn't about being cavalier, I feel that
preparations for a depression aren't realistic, unless you have
unlimited funds and time.

I also feel that most people are tough enough to get through. It's
surprising what you can do, if you have to do it.

As far as people able to go back to the farm during the last one, take
a look at the history books. People lost farms and homes in record
numbers, and moved to the cities for employment.

I don't believe that farms were that self sufficient anyway. During
the 30's most farm people did not produce their own farm machinery,
grind their own flour, make their own cloth, or medicines. I know the
production of can goods boomed in the 1930's, it was certainly a lot
easier than canning everything yourself. While home births were
common at that time, hospitals were becoming the norm for deliveries.
When I think self sufficient, I think the settlers in the 1700's not
farm families in the 1930.

Mabel, where do you live? Just curious. Have you always been an
optimist with a cheery disposition? May I borrow it from time to time?

I hope you own a gun and know how to use it, because we're about to
experience an epidemic of 'upset day traders gone postal'. At the
minimum, tear gas and rubber bullets into angry mobs outside of banks
and government offices. The days of shoe shines and white gloves are
long gone. Religious morality is discouraged and 401K plans rule. :)

I read his book back in 1989 and started preparing for the coming
depression then. I told my mom at the time what I thought was going
to happen, which didn't pan out according to the book. We all know
what a bubble has occurred since then. AND it is because of this that
my mom won't listen to me now!!!! I can't convince her now that NOW
more than ever his principles of a crash coming are evident. The
economy's been manipulated too much IMHO.

"Have you always been an optimist with a cheery disposition?"
LOL Will, I have been called many things, but this is the first time
I've been called a cheery optimist. I'll go ahead and take it as a
compliment, this time... ;)

I'm not all that cheery, I just believe that it's never been all that
great. Life in the "good ol' days" was not like a "Walton's"
TV Show, People were just as mean, petty, dictatorial, thieving as
they are now.

I'm sure history will repeat and the mean, petty and dictatorial
creatures known as humans will survive Y2K. So don't worry Will,
you'll do just fine.

Mabel : I know I'm gonna be OK, it's YOU I'm worried about (grin).
We're living on 10 acres with wood burning stoves, solar, well,
creek, livestock, garden, non-hybrid seed, full pantry, gasoline,
propane, kerosene, self protection, cashed out, little debt and 20
miles from the nearest town (pop. 2,000). My husband and I both have
trained practical skills which would allow us to make decent livings
in the most dire of circumstances. Our ability to participate in
meaningful bartering will get us by, if nothing else.

Where do YOU live. Are you forced to be optomistic do to unavoidable
circumstances? You strike me as a person who believes in positive
thinking. I don't believe anyone on this forum anticipates the loss
of all human life and yet, you appear to imply seeing no significant
difference between a Y2K induced depression and that of the
depression of the 30's. Why is that?

Apparently you rule out the complete or partial loss of
infrastructure, government services, transportation, military
capability, foreign trade, communication, fossil fuel, water, food
etc. I expect the collapse of the entire banking 'system', not simply
a stock market crash. Do you dismiss these possibilities? If any one
of these things were to occur simultaneously with a market crash,
wouldn't the resulting depression be markedly different from that of
the 30's?

Hey, Will...ever hear of the Dark Ages? Wasn't all that pleasant, but
people survived, the human race lived on, we didn't revert to
being cave dwellers.

And just what is this thing you have against
positive thinking? Did someone tell you that there's voodoo magic, in
worry? Does it cast a magic circle around you, to continuously assert
that it's all going to fall apart, and we're all going to die? It
really won't make any difference, if you worry or smile, as far as
what happens, but if you lighten up, you'll at least be better
prepared psychologically to deal with what happens. Victory doesn't go
to the best prepared, victory goes to the most flexible. Flexible
people have some preps, but are also ready to roll out, if need
be. You sound pretty bogged down with that farm. Hope you're not
on a fault line,, in a flood plain or downwind from a nuke plant. Like
someone quoted on another thread. "No battle plan ever survives the
battle".

Well shucks, Bokonon. If I'd only known that 'happy talk' would
prevent Y2K problems from arriving, I could have saved myself alot of
time and trouble in taking responsibility for protecting my family.If
I wish really, really hard maybe Y2K will go away and I can get a
refund on our solar panels, eh? ROTFLOL

You're right, people did survive the dark ages (some of them). We
intend to survive this as well. As will many others. Some will not.
So what's your point? I'm not telling anybody to worry, I'm
suggesting people recognize the potential of Y2K disruption and form
*realistic* scenerios in order to accurately anticipate possible
results. They will then be equipped to make any decision they choose
to make and prepare accordingly to the best of their ability or need.
If you're unwilling to do that, why prepare at all? Why come to this
forum? It will only make you worry. If I wanted fun chit-chat, I'd
be participating on the "101 different things you can do with paint"
forum, know what I mean?

Anyone who can't or won't acknowledge the worst case scenerio will
not BE prepared pschycologically. They'll only be prepared for that
which they are willing or able to accept. In that case, wishing,
hoping and positive thinking will become essential. (along with a
well stocked library of various movie musicals) It can't happen
because I say so? Sounds like denial to me. Skipping through Y2K,
like 'tip-toe through tulips' seems foolish. Maybe you require a
little lighter subject?

Thank you for worrying about me, it makes me feel safe and warm
knowing that you care. ;) However you assume just a tad too much
about my psychology and beliefs. I take Y2K very seriously and I
can't really see where any of my posts lead you to believe that I'm
little Mary Sunshine.

As far as positive thinking goes, I'm not opposed to it. I'm also not
opposed to looking at the dark side, however I don't live in either
place. I try to be rational and view everything objectively and feel
that placing all my eggs in one basket is a good way to end up with no
eggs and a big mess.

I believe that Y2K could end up being a radical change for our
society, and there is a good possibility for mass destruction and loss
of life. I also believe that we might be fast enough on our feet to
tap around some of the worst problems. Only time will tell, and since
I don't have a crystal ball, I'll just have to wait and see.

Finally if it's TEOTWAWKI, we will evolve, adapt and survived the best
by banding together. If there is going to be such massive upheavals,
do you really thing the best chance for survival is for everyone to
find 10 acres and isolate themselves? Geeze, in the worst of times in
human history, people collected in villages, towns and cities by
instinct. It is better to face the unknown and the dark in the
company of others, rather than opposing them.

There are some practical things that can by done in preparation for a
possible depression. Pay down your debt, increase savings, adjust your
lifestyle, etc. For many, a significant adjustment of lifestyle may
have to happen before they can attempt to pay down debt or increase
your savings. We have touched on some good ideas in previous threads.
In Ed's Humpty Dumpty discussion forum, there are several threads
going on about how we might make adjustments or seize upon new rules
and new opportunities.

What is an adjustment of lifestyle? The opportunities in our lives for
some adjustment may, indeed, be signficant. Don Kulha of Home Power
Magazine talks about an adjustment as simple as using a money-saving
20 watt Phillips compact flourescent bulbs. Each bulb, he explains
will save you over $US 55.00 over the life of the bulb (after you
deduct cost of the bulb). 10 bulbs will save you over $US 550.00 over
the course of the life of these bulbs with an initial investment of
$US 160.00.

I have neighbors as well Mabel. Luckily, none of us will be forced to
expose our children to the potential culling and violence that large
population centers may experience. We're not as dependant as those in
cities are either. After the free for all is over in the cities,
whoever remains can once again expect us 'loners' to begin feeding
them. They will be happy to know that some of us had prepared in the
country as opposed to bunching up hoping for help.

Finished reading a tome on the nature of Private Lives in the Dark
Ages, part of a series of 5 - Roman times till now.

Those people lived lives that I am envious of! Yes, drawbacks
included high infant mortality and adult mortality brought about by
lack of modern medicine. But, generally if one survived till
adulthood one's life was pleasant.

Randolf, one cannot prepare totally for something that hasn't yet
happened. The best one can do is to acknowledge something may happen,
plan for that within one's means, & accept the fact that, come the
event, one will have missed something.

I personally believe the bubble is about to burst, would have some
time ago without the massive manipulation by the Big Boys.

But other than band-aids, which I hope will work, I see no real way to
prepare for a Depression, anymore than I see a way to prepare for a 6+
y2k hit. Way too many unknowns, and way way too many variables.

I may not 'know' if all are prepared...but, what is prepared to the masses? I have preparations in place, but am I prepared...kinda like me asking a shrink "what is normal?" A roof, a warm fuzzy hug, water, food, and thermal undies..........As for looting and muggers, I face that everyday....We dont know what will happen, how bad it will get, and anyone stating otherwise is a Liar......The government isnt trusted by many, so IF they did tell the truth, who would believe them? If y2k isnt as bad as some believe, I personally will have a lil food for when bad times come, and they will. I know we are living in a bubble right now....And all tooo sooon, it will be a rough road for ALL of us..I just pray and trust God to give me the wisdom to prepare His way..As I do for all. And if for the most part, all are as kind as this forum, I;'m not concerned about being murdered for a sack of rice.

Sorry I had to leave the thread last night, but "Swiss Family
Robinson" was on the tele, and I wanted to see if I could gain some
insight into your idyllic life out there in the boonies.

I'll give
you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was bleary eyes from
the late hour, and not some reading disability, that caused you to
misread my post. I'll copy and paste, with highlights to make it
easier:

"It really won't make any difference, if you worry or
smile, as far as what happens, but if you lighten
up, you'll at least be better prepared psychologically to
deal with what happens."

The real irony, is that I think you're the one living in a positive
thinking la-la land. I know that every time I walk out the front door,
it could be my last. I know that safety is 90% illusion. I know that
no matter what I do, there are no guarantees. My stores could
be destroyed by fire, tomorrow, and I'd have to start all over again,
with very little time left to do so.

You on the other hand, seem to have the notion that there
is such a thing, as "perfect preps".
Drought?
Hungry squatters with guns, just in time to begin the spring
planting?
I have no investment in upsetting your equilibrium, so I won't go
on and on with a list of what could go wrong with your situation. You
stay on your cloud, I'll stay on mine.

You have a situation that you feel is ideal. Good for you!
Everybody needs to think the best of what they have. The question
though, is why do you insist on trying to pop everybody elses bubble?
All of your posts say the same thing: "Neener! Neener! Neener! I have
a farm, and you don't." Explain to me how it is helpful, to tell
people that the only way to survive is to have a big spread of land,
20 miles from nowhere, when there is only 4 months to go? Do you
really think it would be rational for someone who's lived a city
existence all their life, to start now on learning how to farm,
butcher their own meat, how to chop wood and all the other things
involved in your lifestyle? An extremely optimistic view of the real
estate deal, would probably put the city slicker on his or her brand
new farm by mid October. Two and a half months, to learn a whole new
way to live? It would be suicide.

Your message may have had some validity a year ago, but now it's
only serving to depress and dispirit those of us who are still in the
cities, suburbs and towns. If you don't have any other message to
bring here, I would respectfully suggest that it is you who might
consider leaving the forum. Unless, as Mabel suggests, it makes you
hot to gloat over those you view as less fortunate.

I have to 'fess up about one thing though, I do get a bit of a
mean-spirited chuckle at imagining the apoplectic expression on your
face, if masses of city dweller decide at the last minute to move out
to the country. Especially if your neighbors decide they can bulk up
their cash reserves, by selling off chunks of their land, so city folk
can put up "Country Condos" (ie, "double wides"). That would shoot the
hell out of your little paradise in a hurry, wouldn't it?

Mitchell,

I second what Mabes said. Every once in a while, a post shows up
that makes you say, "Damn! Wish I'd said that!" Yours is one of those
posts.

Stan, for some ideas on how to pare down one's lifestyle to free up
resources for preparing for societal financial meltdown, how about the
article I wrote entitled "Finding Y2K Prep Time and $$"? It is on my
website.

There's something about the name, Minnesota Smith, that makes me think
of a used car salesman. [grin] What does your mother call ya, Smith?

Nonetheless, I think that you have a good list on what a person can do
to adjust their lifestyle. I don't agree with every recommendation,
but I agree with most and have made similar adjustments in our lives.
Unfortunately, most people are going to freeze up if they saw that
list and thought about it for a brief moment. Following most of your
recommendations would mean nothing less than TEOTWAWKI to lots of
people. uh-huh.

"For the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men...Professing to become wise, they became fools.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their
hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the
truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather
than the Creator, who is blessed forever, Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their
women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise
also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their
lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and
receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."

Romans 1:18ff -Apostle Paul

Sorry trueblue. All flesh is like grass, the Word of God abideth
forever.

Bokonon, if that's the impression I've given you, I don't blame you
for being upset. I certainly don't wish that to be my message. My
apologies if I've given anyone this perception of me. My message has
always been that safety in the cities will be difficult to achieve.
Period. I have family and friends who, like most others, are 'stuck'
in high population centers. For you or anyone to suggest that it
doesn't matter whether people worry or smile about Y2K scenerios is
disingenuous. If you have *prepared* that would be true. What about
those still deciding? I don't believe it IS too late for anyone
concerned enough to consider relocating, providing one is willing to
be 'flexible' and make a few 'non-attached' sacrifices. I fear for
the innocent who will be caught in the crossfire of Y2K. I would
welcome *any* new neighbors intending to prepare as best they could,
with open arms. We've prepared to help all in need around us, for the
past year.

I also object to sugar-coating a potentially life threatening
situation. This would be a dishonest act in my view. But if it makes
you feel better, have at it. I'll hope *my* message will convince
someone lurking to contact a friend or family member who lives in the
country and discuss a 'plan B'. Hopefully those still sitting on the
fence in cities will come to realize the possibility of danger in
their location and be moved to take this more seriously than the
current 3 day snow storm 'garbage' our government keeps handing out.

I questioned Mabel's comparrison of a Y2K depression with that
experienced in the 30's. You lept in assuming I was attempting to
announce an end of the world. She then proceeded to adopt the same
assumption. Perhaps I misunderstood your remarks directed to me. I've
also grown weary of the suggestions that those of us who chose to
relocate are running, self-serving zealots with little regard for our
fellow man. I think Mitchell's advice of, "Flexibility is a key. Non-
attachment is a key. Live with few wants. Live close to source."
applies to the many of us who chose relocation in our plans to
prepare. "Smile and laugh regularly", is great advice for those who
have followed the first four of his recommendations. I'm just not
done attempting to reach those who haven't figured this out yet.
Actually, I'm a pretty fun-loving, happy and occasionally funny
person. Just not about Y2K and the message that still needs to be
announced.

If some of us have prepared to the best of our abilities, are we NOW
expected to pat each other on the back and attempt to have a positive
attitude in complete disregard of others who are attempting to sort
out the possibilities and take any actions by assuming responsability
for themselves and their families? Are you suggesting 'gloomy' talk
is inappropriate with a full 4 months yet to go? That seems rather
defeatist and I never figured you to be so quick to lie down and roll
over. Sorry about your bubble, but I didn't create the one which is
about to burst. I just want people to be aware of it.

My brother-in-law told us Friday morning that they have concluded we
were correct in our need to warn them. They are now preparing and one
of their plans includes keeping their motorhome loaded and ready to
arrive at our place. My brother in Virginia thanked us last week for
our relentless pursuit to enlighten them as well. They have now begun
stocking her grandparent's farm as a retreat. They all decided at
this *late date* to acknowledge our concerns (finally) and weigh them
against the the media and government spin from the point of view of
*logic*. So, please don't harp at me about adopting a healthy more
cheerful attitude about this just yet. I still have work to do, but,
I'm currently much happier about my gloomy message...and I appreciate
your bringing this to my attention. I dislike misunderstandings and
tend to have difficulty expressing myself at times. I shall count on
you to tip me off every time I rub you the wrong way. I assure you it
will be a mutual endeavor :)

You have identified Paul with God. Or implied that the editorial
committee for the King James Bible was God. Do you have a scriptural
basis for attributing divine judgement or infallability to either of
these entities?

BB: I wouldn't have ever needed a Bible quote to agree with you.
They should have stayed in the closet, where they belonged. Then
everyone would be happier and there would be nothing to argue or
disagree about.

Homosexual 'compassion' videos (aka propoganda) being shown in public
elementary schools? What WILL they think of next. 'How To' manuals?

Dear Will continue but not for long! nobody ever gets out alive! re-
the Dark Age. they were only dark for the advocates of Monarchy and
the Pax Romana. I'll just bet plenty of the barbarians were just
thrilled to participate in the lootings of farms and cities. And these
very same eventually aquired land and serfs,slaves and gold all at the
expense of those who thought they could dig in and pray their way out.

Liberty, et al: The author of that sermon was David Wilkerson. I
thought that would be evident by the reference he made to his church
on Broadway. Sorry, didn't mean to mislead anyone.

Liberty: I see Paul as God's apostle and fully inspired to speak as
God's representative about divine judgment. I do not bestow any
special authority to the King James Version or any version. I refer to
the orignial languages for matters of truth and doctrine.

Dinosaur: Do not fear man who can only kill the body, but Him Who can
destroy both body and soul. "Therefore, we can confidently say, He
will never leave us nor forsake us, The LORD is my Helper, of whom
shall I be afraid.

When I read your sermon, at times I thought you were posting a
transcript of David Wilkerson!

The very first posting of mine to which you replied was when I
mentioned a newsletter from David Wilkerson and his latest book
regarding God's plan to help believers survive during the forthcoming
Depression.

I ordered several copies of that book.

Sad to say, but the copy given to my father, a successful businessman
but a lost soul, has remained unread in his office.

The copy to my brother, a REAL Christian, has been neglected because
he and his wife don't seem to have the time to read it.

Another copy went to a Christian coworker; she read it and believes
bad times will happen. She has a new baby, so she has been
preoccupied. However, she is aware that our future will grow very
dark before Christ returns.

Another copy went to a DGI Christian who scoffs at the notion that
America will experience a great depression anytime soon. He returned
it with a huff. Go figure.

"Do not envy, have strife or malice, or deceive. Do not gossip,
slander, be insolent, arrogant, or boastful." (Romans 1:29-30)

"Do not disobey your parents" (Romans 1:30)

Do not be sensless, heartless, or ruthless." (Romans 1:31)

"Those who do so deserve death" (Romans 1:32)

Golly, have you killed anyone who has forsaken these laws lately? No?
Why not? How many have have you stoned to death for these
transgressions? None? Why not? This is the same book that you are
quoting as law!

More:

"You who pass judgment on someone else...at whatever point you judge
the other, you are condemming yourself" (Romans 2:1)

"Do not brag about your relationship to God" (Romans 2:17)

"Love must be sincere" (Romans 12:10)

"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse" (Romans 12:13)

"Do not repay anyone evil for evil" (Romans 12:17)

And finally, for this evening. Will, please pay attention to this one.

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there
is no authority exept that which God has established by God.
Consequently, he (or in your case Will, she) who rebels against the
authorities is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those
who do so will bring judgement upon themselves. Therefore, it is
necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible
punnishmnet but because of conscience" (Romans 13:1-2,5)

I think that includes Bill CLinton? Yes? Better get with the program
and obey Bill, Will.

I responded to a person who believes homosexuality is a natural
normal lifestyle. I quoted from Romans to show how serious it is...it
is under the wrath of God. I didn't write it, the apostle did. People
want to call good evil and evil good. Be careful what you defend
Uncle.

I started the quote with, "The wrath of God is revealed against all
ungodliness and unrighteousness of men..." That about covers all you
mentioned above.

No you silly, not me. You've missed my point, but you did admit that
so I will try it again.

Where are the cries for the stoning of willful children who do not
obey their parents? Why do I hear no cries to silence Cindy Adams the
gossip columnist? Where are the voices calling for the death of the
boastful Donald Trump?

"Those who do so deserve death" (Romans 1:32)

But no, it will not come for them, but look out if you are gay. That
one is extra bad, even though it is not singled out as being any more
evil than any other sin.

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there
is no authority exept that which God has established by God.
Consequently, he who rebels against the authorities is rebelling
against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring
judgement upon themselves. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to
the authorities, not only because of possible punnishmnet but because
of conscience" (Romans 13:1-2,5)

I wonder how many of the Christian Clinton bashers have read that
passage? Aren't they as bad as the fags they hate? Sorry to upset the
homo haters out there, but the ones I have met have been very nice
friendly people. And I guess that the hatred I see coming from the
Bible toters strikes a chord in my innately fair nature. The same as
it does when I see hatred of any peaceful person because of who they
are, if who they are does not harm others. I stand against bigotry,
even bigotry blessed by the Bible.

St. Thomas Aquinas, and Martin Luther King, Jr. more recently, have
given us a bit more insight into when one must disobey a human law. I
am an advocate of the natural law and believe that our Constitution
is founded upon it. You make the mistake, however, in assuming that
God's authority is well excercised in human authority at all times. In
fact, it is not. A human law loses its binding upon a subject's
conscience when the law and/or lawmaker does not conform to the
requirements of law (supernatural and natural). Now this doesn't mean
one should harm society by breaking any unjust law, but when an unjust
law is so grievous that it harms the common good, then it may or must
be disobeyed. I would argue that civil disobedience is not only a
natural right in such a case, it may be our natural responsibility.

Fair enough. Misunderstandings are not good. If I have a false
imprssion of where you are coming from, then my apologies.

But I
think you misunderstand where I'm coming from, as well. I'm not
talking about that "gee, just think good thoughts and nothing bad will
ever happen" outlook. That's not called positive thinking, that's
called denial. I'm talking about playing the hand that's dealt you,
and accepting that it's not always going to be a royal flush. It
doesn't help your game any to sit and moan that you never seem to get
any better than three of a kind. Better to look for a way to turn that
into a winning hand. A person's time is always better spent, if they
use it to look for ways to turn adversity into advantage. No, you
won't always succeed, but you'll defintely improve your odds.

Not
everyone will make it out to the country. They won't even make it out
to where we are; that twighlight zone between the country and the
city. For whatever reason, they'll still be in the inner city when
1/1/00 comes. they have to believe that there's some way they will be
able to make it to keep hope alive. Otherwise they'll just give up and
maybe take the quick way out.

I think people in the inner city have
no choice, but to form intentional communities. I know that's against
the conventional wisdom of the board, and is a course of action that
is fraught with danger. However, if you live in the middle of zillions
of people, you need back up, no matter how well prepared and/or armed
you are. It does no good to tell those people that the other members
of their community will rob them blind and they'll die anyway. Might
happen - might not. It's about improving your odds, anyway you can. A
person who has isolated themselves, in the middle of a major
population center is a lamb to the slaughter, for sure, if violence
breaks out.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, when I say
"positive thinking". Make the best of it. Learn to enjoy all the new
skills you are learning as you prepare. If you think the economy's
going to tank next year, and you'll be out of work, look for
constructive ways to spend your newfound abundance of free time.

I
speak from experience on that last one, our own personal economy
tanked four years ago, when, due to budget cutback and a change of
credentialing reequirements, I lost a job that I dearly and
passionately loved, that I had held for 15 years. A year later, I was
turned down for grad school, which I would have needed to be able to
return to my beloved profession, at anywhere remotely close to the
level I left at. At the same time, I was beginning to notice some
funny breathing problems, which turned out to be a really bad enlarged
cardio-myopathy, otherwise known as congestive heart failure. I could
have collapsed and gave up. It was, after all the end of the world as
I knew it, but what would that have gotten me, except unending misery,
and a group of family and friends who ran, whenever they saw me
coming. On the bright side, we wouldn't be nearly as well prepared as
we are, if I didn't have all this extra free time. Sometimes things
that look like total disasters, turn out to be something else.

Look at it as a challenge to be met, instead of as a stone to wear
you down. It's not about denying what's coming, but about changing how
you look at what's coming. Like the old saw says, "That which does not
kill us, makes us stronger".

And finally, we have tons of
preparations and have always advocated everyone doing the same...kinda
hard to keep smiling when your starving...but we also have a well
stocked bug-out bag, and view that as every bit as important as the
stores.

Good grief Unc......I've never quoted anything from the Bible. I've
never proclaimed to be a Christain. Once again, the christain phobia
freaks behave like rabid dogs at the gate (ROTFLMAO).

Can't you simply recognize inappropriate behavior when confronted
with it? Do you believe their agenda belongs in our public school
systems, particularly at the elementary levels? Do you believe our
court systems should be placing foster children in same sex homes and
environments even against the will of some of these kids?

Get off of your 'burn the Christains at the stake' mantra and
determine the stand you would take regarding their political demands.
Bill Clinton is an asshole and so are those who allow his behavior.
What of it? He's a two-faced lying bag of shit with a Bible in one
hand and a socialist, anti-christain agenda in his pocket. He's a
traitor and a free-wheeling criminal. What a waste of flesh and
anyone who would defend him is deaf, dumb and blind. Anything else
you want to know?

Fats Kissinger, read the above, and then wipe the foaming froth from
your chin too. I guarantee you, there are more people on this forum
digging in, hoping to 'pray' their way out of this in the CITIES than
in the country. You need to give your Dark Ages theory a bit more
thought. It won't be quite as applicable in the year 2000. The
barbarions already live in the cities and will have more than enough
to loot in their own backyards. By the time they're done, whoever
remains will be met with a formidable force of country people. They'd
be better off remaining clustered and ruling behind their own prison
walls. Most of them have never traveled dirt roads in their lives.
They are predators only. Country people know how to hunt. The movie
"Crocodile Dundee II" comes to mind, "You call *that* a knife? *This*
is a knife." The only formidable force that might show up in the
country will be our government, taking control of America's bread
basket. Of course, this would depend upon their ability to function.
Resistence within their own ranks could be a possibility considering
the self-serving criminal we have in the Whitehouse. No guarantees
anywhere. Just improved odds. Life is a gamble after all.

Can't you simply recognize inappropriate behavior when confronted
with it? Do you believe their agenda belongs in our public school
systems, particularly at the elementary levels? Do you believe our
court systems should be placing foster children in same sex homes and
environments even against the will of some of these kids?

Define inappropriate behavior for me. Does it include private
activity between consenting adults? And what is their agenda? Why is
the desire not to be hated for who you are wrong? And finally, no,
not against the will of the children. But if you see them as evil,
and their behavior as evil, you will have a problem with nearly
everything they do. Likewise, if you view them as merely different,
how they act is not such a big deal. As to their political demands, I
don't support any special privledges for them or anyone else. I'm a
Libertarian.

My quote of Romans about obeying those in authority was not meant as
a show of support for Clinton, I used it as an example of how parts
of the Bible are ignored on the one hand, while conversely it is also
used as the unerring word of God on the other.

And I do not want to burn Christians at the stake, you silly wabbit.
Nor am I a "Christian Phobia Freak", I married a Southern Baptist.

Thank you Bokonon. We must have posted at the same time. I agree
completely with what you've said. We are all faced with 'choice'
minute by minute. We are ultimately responsible for everything in our
lives, including those things that seem to be out of our control. In
that particular case, we must be responsible for our perceptions of
such events. You are correct. I'm sorry about your health problems.
My Mother informed me yesterday that she has breast cancer. My Father
survived bone cancer 10 years ago and then bladder cancer 3 years
ago. Attitude is paramount as is acceptance of reality and then
determination to be made better for it. Those unable to achieve this
are the only victims of life. I did misunderstand you and feel
greatful to be reminded that we are on the same side. Actually, most
everyone on this forum is. There are as many 'styles' as there are
finger-prints. That's one of the things I find so appealing about our
group! We need to remind ourselves of our common goal from time to
time. If TSHTF, we're in south-central Kansas. Just ask for the
verbally aggressive 40 year old 'goat woman'(named L*i*s*a) that
carries a copy of the Constitution in her pocket. By that time, I'm
sure I'll have quite a reputation....If you mention my 'handle', we
have a large collection of hammocks to put in the hayloft, all GIs
welcome.

Randolph, Walton Seed had a great 'How the old-timers did it'
section. Good ideas for various root cellars (with plans) depending
upon one's geographical location. If you dig, be aware of your water
table level. We don't grow crops, just have a large garden. We made
arrangements with the farmer behind us (3 miles) to give him access
to one side of our creek to winter his cattle, in exchange for
helping us plant winter wheat on a back section of our property. He
also stores a tractor in one half of our loafing shed. Barter,
barter, barter! My husband hates the computer and isn't as
opinionated as his wife, but is a total GI. Y2K supports his theory
about technology and 'progress'! :)

That's my version anyway. For advocates of this unnatural sexual
behavior to promote such by means of our political system is
comparable to, shoving their lifestyle down the throats of the
'majority' who reject it as being considered 'acceptable' behavior.
This in turn PROMOTES hate crime. If they'd simply take their
rightful choice back into the privacy of their own homes (where it
belongs) they would be met with far less opposition. Simple.

I do not 'use' the Bible as a road map or a weapon. Kindly refrain
from this behavior in the future, where *I* am concerned. It's
'innapropriate'.

The difference is this: EVERYONE agrees that gossip, pride,
boastfulness is wrong. But there is a potent political movement that
wants to instill our culture that homosexuality is ok. Scripture
teaches that it is wrong. You do agree with that don't you?

Also, you misunderstand what the Bible says about the punishment. It
doesn't say we are to stone or kill anyone. When it says this behavior
is deserving of death, it means what God will do. "The wages of sin is
death."
Some sins are worse than others. Certainly murder is worse than hatred
and lust than adultery. When gays were in the closet it was treated as
the other sins you mentioned. It is when they took off after Anita
Bryant and now attempt to call this behavior normal that awakens
opposition. They object to this behavior regarded as a sin, under the
wrath of God and deserving of death.

I will agree that our human nature tends to regard some sins as worse
than others. I am not perfect in that regard. But if you posted saying
proud boasting is not a sin, I would have quoted the same passage and
disagreed that the Bible teaches such a thing the same way I did about
homosexuality.

As far as your shallow understanding of Romans 13 I would say this. In
America the constitution is our governing authority. It tells us that
when a government becomes corrupt it is our American duty to point it
out, overthrow it, and reestablish a constitutional government.

You can love a person and still disapprove of their lifestyle or
actions. I have quite a few homosexual friends from my days of
working for Continental Airlines. They invite me back for birthday
parties, etc. They know that I care for them a LOT, but I don't agree
with their lifestyle choice.

The same holds true for a sister of mine who smokes. I don't love her
any less because of it, but I sure wish she wouldn't smoke. I watched
my father-in-law die from lung cancer, and it was a HORRIBLE way to
die. I love her dearly, but I don't agree with her lifestyle choice.

Perhaps you've heard the old saying, "Love the sinner, hate the sin?"
Maybe it should be, "Love the PERSON, don't agree with the
lifestyle." It IS possible, but unfortunately most people can't
separate the two. How sad for all of us! Jesus was capable of it.
When a woman caught in the act of adultery was brought before Him,
the law said to stone her. Jesus challenged her accusers "let he who
is without sin cast the first stone." It didn't happen because they
ALL had sin in their lives. Just like WE do. When Jesus forgave her,
though, He told her to quit doing what was wrong. I wonder if she did?

I've known many, many Christians. I've watched many others
(Christians) from afar and I resent it when you smear Christians with
lines such as: "(Christian)homo haters" and "the hatred I see coming
from the Bible toters". Gee, you must be living in a different part
of the world.

I have never witnessed such hatred as you describe coming from
Christians. But I have heard "about it" from those who never
associate with "Christians" and who are in complete "DWGI" about God
Almighty, and His Word, Jesus Christ. These people twist the word
"hate" and "tolerance" to promote their own agenda. Although, I see
that you can quote the Bible somewhat, you sound like a DWGI.

I, myself, have my many frustrations with the modern church but I can
say that Christians, for all OUR flaws, do not go about practicing
hate and "homo" bashing although the political powers that be and the
news media would love for you to believe it because it furthers their
agenda.

Sincere Christians are trying to love what God loves and hate what God
hates. Sometimes, we're not that good at it. If I have made any
statement that reveals hatred for any person please point it out, and
I'll apologize.

Forgive me please for using an overly broad brush. I'm sorry to
include some good folks in my rant against the bad ones.

Some things irk the hell out of me, persecuting "cults", abuse of
power over those who don't have it, hatred of folks who live a
different life style, or have different skin pigmentation to name
just a few. Injustice bugs me.

And while it is true that Christians are not all alike, the first
thing I see as justification from those who bash the fags is the
Bible. Right or wrong that's what I see.

...but "uncle", if we don't point out to our "friends" who are living
a life or lifestyle that God has declared to be worthy of His
everlasting condemnation, then we are guilty of sins of ommission and
we are doing the ultimate disservice to our fellow man. That is,
provided we point these things out in a spirit of love.

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my
people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not
of her plagues." Rev. 18:4

You are on the right track. Jesus clearly and quickly condemned pride,
self righteousness, and hypocrisy as the great sins. He condemned
those who put religion above people, and sacrifice above mercy and
forgiveness. In almost all of His parables, the villains were not the
drug addicts, alchies, or prostitutes.

You are right to demand Christians love ALL people. Our failure to do
this has brought reproach to our Lord. We too easily forget how far
short we fall of the glory of God when we enter into debate to defend
the "truth". We can have all knowledge, but if we have not love we
have nothing at all. 1Cor.13. On a forum where flaming is an artform,
it is easy to forget this love. God help us all.

Will C. that is exactly what I thought about when I read what BB
said! :-) When I was a little kid, I tried to figure out that
great mystery. Then my dad spoiled it by showing me the little button
on the inside of the refrigerator. LOL!

BB, you were talking about the importance of love, and it just seemed
fitting. :-)

I believe that is the name of it. Gayla, you have children. Didn't
they see ET? This tune was written about ET's blinking heart? Oh well,
the moment has now been lost. I mean really lost......"Hungry Years"
is not familiar to me. What is it ...... country and western or maybe
a russian tune? :)

Welcome to the lovefest Deedah, thanks for bringing the music. LOL
I hate that song. Excuse me....dislike that song. g And I'm not a fan
of Diamond which is no reason why I should confuse him with the other
Neil. It hit me today on the way to Baltimore too far from my computer
to change it.

Gayla, Heartlight was written by Neil Diamond right after ET was made.
It wasn't in ET but written about ET's heartlight. Sorry for the
confusion.

BB, is the God that says homosexuality will be punished by death the
same one that says you can't eat anything that doesn't have a "cloven
hoof"? (oh and no pork either, an exception to the rule)

Now, if your argument is "that's the slightly different God of
Judaism", then why is your God any more valid? Why does your God let
you eat bacon? And the standard argument that Christianity is "true"
and "proven" because "Jesus rose from the dead" sounds p-r-e-t-t-y
darn cult like to me.