Quote:Chanters, i agree with you in a sense, no one wants to be rolling around on the floor fighting outside a pub, but on the other hand, no one should want to be stood slugging it out outside a pub either. Any form of fighting is far less preferable to a peaceful existence.The point about ground work is that if some idiot attacks you, coming in hard and swinging, and you are still upright as his advance is stopped by getting up close to you, there is a strong chance that he will grab/push/clinch up with you. From here, as you attempt to push him away/free yourself, or he continues to try and overpower you, there is a strong possibility of you falling over. It does happen. Now its happened you want to get up, but he wont let you, what do you do?Ground fighting is not about making a choice to be there, its about being able to cope when it happens, its also about becoming better at keeping your balance when people attempt to put you on the ground, so works to help keep you upright.If there was real choice in a true SD situation, then there would be neither stand up or ground fighting, just a nice chat to diffuse the problem.

Can't add much to that!!! +1

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Thats almost what I mean boxers handle themself ok in the mid-clinch, but once wraped up or on the ground most are confused and drowned like most pure strikers (so I'm not just cutting on boxers, just an observation most MA teach some counters). I've seen some boxers on street give some awesome whippings, but I've also seen some kicked in knee and grion or taken down and got the pi$$ whipped out them. Thats what I mean they lack in ranges. Boxing is a mid-range art IMO.

Of course in a perfect world I agree with Chanters and Cord.Here birds chripping and violins playing.

I've seen untrained and trained people try new stuff in a real fight, its not the best time to try something new unless he's wide open. In a real fight its best to fight with your tried and true techniques, IMHO.

You are right I've seen a many people try to use kicks on the street miss, slip or be caught and there on their behind and getting punched like a volley ball or kicked like a foot ball. In close clinching a guy thats not use to using elbow and knees against a guy that trains that way, good night sweet charlotte. Theres not that much room for a mistake. The trained person can block and counter and the untrained thinks he CAN, whose got the odds???? bad time to test this idea.

But you are right anybody can try new stuff in a fight, if they want to. But I would never, why take a chance. It takes a lot of training to get a boxer to give up his base, but if a guys wide open it could work.

Quote: But you are right anybody can try new stuff in a fight, if they want to. But I would never, why take a chance.

So are you saying because you've never trained to do a certain thing you'd NEVER try it out if attacked? What if you're in a situation where you're not in a position to execute a technique? Would you just stand there and take a beating because your techniques couldn't be carried out? I've never trained in eye gouging etc and I doubt many people do, but it's still something I'd use if pushed to. I've never trained in throwing a pint glass before but I'd use it if it was justified, (i.e keeping distance between the attacker and myself). Just because I haven't been trained in certain types of defence, doesn't mean you should rule out using them if you run out of options.

You're very right Chanters.Around last year I went with a friend to pick up his kid brother from his school, I saw two tall kids arguing, and suddenly one of them turned quickly, and just gave him a spinning back kick. It was so quick and effective that you would think this kid was a skilled MA master. I asked that kid if he trained in martial arts, or any other fighting art, he said he didn't he had just seen it in a movie, and thought it was a pretty cool move.

Circumstances will cause you to respond with makeshift methods we try to teach & use them in class so you look to use and deter them. Even so to finish the encounter you continue with trained techniques. I'm glad you can improvises on the fly and trust that it will work. But training in these techniques helps your success.

Dragon.. If not why train at all why not just watch TV, movies and read books.

Chanter - I'm not a really good Aikido person (as you are, I'm assumimg) while attempting to use these taught techniques on the street to make an arrest. I had to coach the person into the lock, by striking then they wanted to fall into the lock more peacefully. My point is that if I was better at Aikido/Jujistsu techniques back then I would have had to hit them less. By using (as I learned later) bumps, pushes or strikes to the hip or weigh shifting, works and looks better so far as PR is concern. But a shin kick in boots & a sweep, or a scraping elbow to the ribs or palm to solar plex or chin worked back then. But noticed I improvised with techniques that I knew worked (The locks worked in class). I also learned that serious Aiki-Jujitsu people do strike, I was taught that the just using the locks would work.

Dragon ...Thats the difference in a Trained MA and a guy that watches TV or Movie, he probably couldn't do that again and it won't work against an alert aggressive opponent. Its called Luck. A trained person can repeat the technique, until you counter it, then counter your counter.

Chanter - We spar to block and deliever eyes gouges (really eye flicks and sweeps much faster) in combinations with leg kicks attacking the knee or being swepted and a guy tries to eye gouge, its in at least two of our traditional Kiso-kumite at 3rd kyu Brown and Nidan. We spar in goggles when practicing for this at a certain level, but not in the Kiso its trained traditionaly bare.I swear if you train at it you are better at it. I'm trying to be funny don't take offense. Please.

Quote:Sorry to be pedantic but boxing isn't strictly a martial art, it's a sport.

Sorry if this has already been stated....BUT:

Boxing is a "sport" so long as someone intends on "being 'sportive'" about it.

Ever heard of "dirty" boxing?

Ever heard of boxing as a "delivery system" (art) as opposed to "just" a "ring sport"?

The only thing about boxing being a sport is if and when it is being competed as one. If and when a skilled boxer knocks someone unconscious in a street fight and then chooses to run over him with his car - is THAT still being "sportive"?

Chanters wrote:

Quote:That's not to say that it's not useful as a form of self defence, perhaps quite the opposite. And I agree that it would be a good asset to anyone who is keen to improve their self defence skills.

Right on brother (or sister.... )

The whole boxing and wrestling being "sport" is somewhat tired don't you think? I mean, if you're training those arts strictly for sportive strategies, that's one thing. If you're training them with open eyes toward a street situation is another.

Either way, the skillsets created by the sheer practice is where the value lies. When one has skill in their delivery systems, you can then improvise strategy. But you CAN'T improvise skill.

Excellent John. If I had anything to add to the topic it would be that boxing, along with any other style, can be combat effective if trained with that goal in mind. And also not to rely on just on system of delivery. If you train for combat purpose than you must train all levels of contact. Not just Punching and not Just wrestling.

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