Alcoholism Support Group

Alcoholism is the continued consumption of alcoholic beverages, even when it is negatively affecting your health, work, relationships and life. If you think alcohol is causing you to lose control, it's time to seek help. Our group is a safe place to vent, check in, get back up if you fall, and reach sobriety.

power of choice

i remember when i came back to aa in 2001 someone told me that i had chosen to take that drink. to me it just possed me off but made me feel really bad also. later after going thru the steps and recovering i discovered in the Big book that it says that all alcoholics have lost the power of choice when it comes to the first drink. it goes on to say our so called will power wont be effective in preventing me from taking that drink. I will not be able to bring into the mind why i shouldnt drink. no matter how bad it was in my past if im alcoholic i will be doomed to drink again.
this is from chap 2 in the BB
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.

The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove.

The alcoholic may say to himself in the most casual way, "It won't burn me this time, so here's how!" Or perhaps he doesn't think at all. How often have some of us begun to drink in this nonchalant way, and after the third or fourth, pounded on the bar and said to ourselves, "For God's sake, how did I ever get started again?" Only to have that thought supplanted by "Well, I'll stop with the sixth drink." Or "What's the use anyhow?"

When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or to permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcohoholics throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop but cannot.
this confirmed for me why without a spiritual solution i always went back to the booze. i would always go back cause i had lost the power of choice. lack of power that was my problem. the 12 steps allowed me to awake to the presence of god that is already in me. and by seeking that power daily thru prayer meditation and steps 10 thru 12 i am assured to be sober every day.
I hope this helps anyone tht struggles
Dave

I was one of the ones that admitted my alcoholism then spent years relapsing.

I really had no real answer to why i relapsed. Mostly it was because my emotional nature was pretty unbearable at certain times and I sought relief, but that didn't explain why i relapsed when life was pretty good I was I feeling ok.

What Bill and the first 100 describe in the big book in that passage on page 24 was a double edged sword for me when i first read it.

It did explain why I kept relapsing but I couldn't understand about this power of choice thingy. I mean surely I had chosen to drink of my own free will?

1) Why did I chose to drink when I was in full possession of the facts of where it would lead?
2) I then saw the words - insanely trivial excuse, appauling lack of perspective, lack of proportion, and most importantly for me &quot;AT CERTAIN TIMES&quot; (ie not all the time cos sometimes I could resist off my own power - i had months of dryness to prove that).

Admitting that my 'decision/choice' was based on defective thinking and believing a lie was what kick started my recovery - i no longer had to depend on my will-power, high resolve and ego to stay sober.

What a bloody relief, the battle was weighing so heavy on my soul already in tatters.

It wasn't nice to admit that this defective thinking was a form of insanity, but there we go, change can be painful.

The quotes from the big book completely match my drinking experience. For me admitting powerless was the way to empowerment. Whilst I still believed I had the power of choice I was unable to stay sober. Since i admitted my powerlessness, and was therefore able to admit the need for a solution that did not rely on my own power, I have not taken a drink.

I have not been indoctrinated or forced to take on anyone else's beliefs.

What i believe now about my alcoholism and the solution I have found to it is based on my own experience.

I believe there are may people who are not powerless over alcohol and therefore different routes to change may be more appropriate for them.

I however know that I was powerless and know the solution that I have found is the right one for me because it is the only one that, once I was willing to accept it, has worked for me.

Bill wasn't shouting 'I am just like you' what he was SAYING is 'Are you just like us?' - obviously you are not - how cool that you have found a way that works for you.

The way I found was through the 12 steps and they have worked wonderfully for me for a long time. There are many people who stop drinking by means other than the 12 steps, I have seen them myself, but because the Big Book fit my experience so closely I used the steps.

And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone-even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned. We will seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically. We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutralitysafe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.

This in itself suggests that if I continue to utilize the recovery maintenance outlined and continue to stay connected with my HP I have regained the GOD GIVEN ability to make choices and say NO to alcohol. IF I CHOOSE to take that first drink and continue I can and WILL lose that power of choice. I am NOT afraid of alcohol. I respect it. God did not gives us a Spirit of fear but of POWER and of love and of a sound mind.

Every time this comes up I wonder if we are arguing over semantics or just personal ideology. Hard to tell. If I have the choice to believe the BB over the Bible and GOD's word I personally will choose the Bible every time. I prefer to meld them together, Of course that is what works for ME and it's not for me to say what you should believe. To each his/her own.

see jim i beg to differ this is not a personal ideaology. this is right from the bb. this is the deal either this matches your exp thus making you the real alki or it doesnt. problem or heavy drinkers have not lost the power of choice . this diferentiates us from them. thus our only solution in aa to seek god thru the 12 steps. seems to work for all who work it and not for the ones who dont.

I agree with Jim in many ways and as an AA counselor, I think he's got experience to justify much of what he says.

Just as science has progressed in many areas, they're continually making advances in understanding addictions and dependency. The BB is not a text of facts. Bill made his own definition of what an alkie is but it's only based on his experience back then. It's great he came up with a program that works for people but he can't be held as the only authority who gets to define this problem forever. Society advances, discoveries are made. It's a little antiquated to think one man's writing is the end all/be all.

I do have a question for those who claim there's no other way and that the &quot;facts&quot; show this. Can you tell me where people who were hardcore alcoholics by any definition, go to report their sobriety? Is there a place that keeps this statistic? This is a major problem with the stats of any group or report because it's so selective. It's faulty for the scientific community as well as any particular program because you don't go clock in somewhere when you develop the problem and clock out when you're cured. Rehabs can only base their findings on as many folks as they can keep up with after they leave. Some may become homeless and die, some may find a new way of life and never look back.

There's also still a lot of relapse among people who do work the program and it's not a cure all. Sure, the people it works for work the program but that doesn't mean that everyone who works the program stops drinking.

Some here have said they've never heard of anyone who has used anything but a 12-step to be sober (and I'm referring to healthy individuals, not people still living miserably without addressing what made them drink)but I know a few personally and few here at DS (one whose story is truly inspirational). I think it's easy to say there aren't any if you choose to believe there's no other way - therefore they must not exist or they weren't real alkies or they aren't really sober.

Jim, as a person who has worked with so many in this situation - what have you seen?

Just a small point though - Jim is NOT an AA counselor although of course he does work in the field.

I do not entirely agree with the way Jim understands the promises in Step 10 for him.

The issue of choice is a non-issue for me because I am never called upon to make a choice - this is what 'recovered' means. If there is a time when I am confronted with a situation where a choice becomes necessary I MAY be able to say 'no' I may not; the Big Book tells us that our willpower in such situations is PRACTICALLY non-existent.

My point of view, which I feel is supported by my experience and the Big Book is that if I am faced with a choice, it means that I am no longer doing what i need to do in order to stay spiritually fit and that means that suddenly, I am having to make a choice that I could never make before because I could NEVER choose not to drink.

There are of course those whose experience is different and who can argue with that? This is just mine for what it's worth!

I thought Jim told me he was or used to be an AA counselor. My apologies if I'm wrong. I know when it got crazy here with some people &quot;promoting&quot; the program, he knew who to call to get some answers haha.

I am an Addictions Counselor and I go to AA. Most everything I teach comes from the Big Book. Due to the type of people I work with I have had to adjust what I know to fit other issues. It seems to be working. What I do is a melding of AA, Psychiatric therapies, and yes some as a Pastoral Counselor. Because of this I have been MADE to think outside the box and and become more flexible. I deal with all types. Christian, Muslim, atheist, Buddhist... all kinds of backgrounds from the up under the bridge drunk to the spoiled brat housewife that thinks they are owed something. Dr.'s, lawyers you name it. I treat them all the same. My PURPOSE in life is to show people there is another way to live NOT a puppet to their disease/dis-ease. What I offer appears to be a watered down version of the 12 Steps. My purpose is to give enough information and inspiration that they will at least go and try it themselves instead of walking out of our hospital with NOTHING. I personally think there is to much time spent trying to convince others that the way to believe is THIS WAY or THAT WAY. We should be spending our time offering HOPE instead of Dogma. I cannot tell ANYONE what to believe as a higher power. That is up to them to decide. I have no right to tell someone that their way sucks or is a cult or they will continue to suffer if they don't do whatever. AA people will NATURALLY tout AA. Those that the 12 Steps scared off NATURALLY tout what works for them. There is NOTHING wrong with that UNTIL they become close minded and refuse to at least examine other things that have been offered. To simply say bullshit is contempt prior to investigation. I WANT to be able to offer people everything I can to help them gain peace of mind. If I offend either side of the coin so be it. That is YOUR shit not mine.NOTHING I say should be seen as offensive but as &quot;in addition to&quot;. I believe everyone here has the same motive. HELPING OTHERS. Then do it and stop fighting about HOW.
Now... if I don't get my way I will throw a hissy fit and post crap all day long so I can have attention and convince you ALL I am just one more crazy SOB. Better yet I will leave DS all together and rob you all of my infinite wisdom. So there. :oP

Jim, please don't even consider leaving. You have provided many positive posts and responses to many. Not everybody can agree, but Phil is only 1 person and is talking about HIS recoveryyou are 1 person and you discuss your recovery PLUS the 100's of other that you help - you knowledge shows us that ALL ARE DIFFERENT, most every support group has a 12 step of some sort, I don't know if you've ever read Rick Warrent's 40 days of purpose, which is a 40 day spiritual journey, which many of processes of that book, reminded me a 12 step program. I would have to say - AND TRUST ME I AM NOT KNOCKING ANYBODY'S SOBRIETY - I would have to lean more towards your wisdom, as you are not judgmental, you are open minded, you try to keep the calm in this group of drama driven people (not everyone) you speak the truth, you speak from experience and not just your own experience. I like hearing everybody's different ways to sobriety and maintaining it and you know I am not an AA backer (for myself that is) but I truly don't knock any recovery program that is truly working for a person and helping the achieve and maintain sobriety, even if it is AA. You and I have discussed before that many addicts aren't just addicted to drugs or alcohol, that they are also addicted to &quot;drama&quot; many recovery addicts have yet to let the &quot;chip on their shoulder&quot; fall to the floor, some sugar coat and are kind with their words, some, including myself, tend to be hard core and pretty blunt, some recovery addicts are very spiritual or religious and some are not. Just as in everything, it takes all types to make the world go round and Jim you are a very important part of this world - continue to speak your peace, continue to promote what you know best, if someone doesn't agree the big whoopie - so long as you know that you are doing your best, that's all that matters and trust me, i bet many people would be sad to see you go. Your words of wisdom are important to and I've been sober, what I consider a long time - and yet, i still learn from your posts! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!!! Hooray for Jim -

ok, well then it's been one helluva day around here, so if i drank, this would be a time for a drink, but instead i think i will step outside and enjoy the rest of this beautiful - my mind is obvisouly in overload - lol.

A friend sent this to me..As far as I can see, grief will never truly end.It may become softer overtime, more gentleand some days will feel sharp.But grief will last as long as Love does - ForeverIt's simply the way the absence of your loved onemanifests in your heart. A deep longing accompaniedby the deepest Love some days. The heavy fog mayreturn and the next day, it may recede.Once again, it's...

theatre and I are there already. I'm having a very berry tea with crackers, cheese and cherry tomatoes and she's having a joint with some beer and we're both on really comfy recliners on thick pile carpet. we need some help with the decor if anyone is around??

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