I especially liked the bit about "Sure you're in a tree outside her bedroom window, but it's only so you can watch her sleep!"

Actually, pretty much every vampire "romantic gesture" I can think of creeps me out. I'm not sure it's because they're all extra creepy compared to non-supernatural idiocies, or if the added element of "Dead people are hot!" puts them over the top.

The worst example I can think of is from the sixth season of Buffy The Vampire Slayer. The scene where Spike attacks Buffy in her bathroom and essentially tries to rape her. The writers apparently thought that would come off as more romantically desperate than, you know, rape-y. If I recall correctly, the woman running the show at that point said it was based on a moment in her own life when she tried to force herself onto a guy to keep him from leaving her. Putting aside the fact that it's an incredibly ill-advised and despicable thing for a woman to do to a man, there's also the fact that it's especially creepy if you turn it around and make it a man doing it to a woman. Like it or not, our culture treats male on female violence differently than it treats female on male violence, and to throw a sexual element in on top of that? And still somehow think your audience will be okay with it? Not very bright.

Of course, there were some people who saw it as oh so romantic, as intended. That just goes to show you the usual sort of things this sort of situation goes to show you.

Really? That was supposed to be romantic? I always thought that it was meant to showcase that no matter how he felt about Buffy, Spike was still a revolting monster at heart. And further that when he realised that it was what inspired him to go get his soul back (so that he wouldn't be a revolting monster anymore and Buffy wouldn't be entirely justified in hating his guts). Admittedly I tend to rewatch the earlier seasons so I haven't seen it for ages, but that's my recollection.

It was a *brilliant* scene when I interpreted it my way. But romantic? No way on earth. (Also a woman trying to force herself onto a man to prevent him from leaving is revolting. I hate that some writer has tried to justify her moment of criminal assault by trying to fool the rest of us).

Your interpretation is the one the writers intended. The rape scene was meant to be horrifying. It was NOT meant to be romantic. It was intended to show both what Spike was still capable of, despite believing that he loved Buffy, and that their relationship was highly dysfunctional and damaging to Buffy. From that point on, both Spike and Buffy grew as people. According to the writers, they wanted something that was so awful that it would drive Spike to do what he did next (seek out a soul). And to that end, they were successful. Joss Whedon has said in interviews that doing the bathroom rape scene meant that they had to be very cautious with the characters' relationship from then on. The attempted rape is the reason that you never seen Spike and Buffy scrabbling in the 7th season, because Joss didn't want to give the impression that rape is something you just get over. I thought it was handled very delicately.

As to the writer's history, she drew from her own experiences which she realized long ago were VERY, VERY wrong. She was not justifying what she did. Not even remotely. That scene in Buffy was intended to be as disgusting and horrifying as it was.

lol. I have that book! I remember even as a little girl thinking, "Well, no wonder he's not married..."

Eek. I've never read that book, but the comments reminds me of a short story I read. A little son was upset his mother went on a date and threw fits. He made her promise never to date and leave him. She kept that promise and kept reminding him of it when he was old enough to go on dates himself. One day he killed her so he can have a life of his own. But a mother always keep her promises...

Oh, another one.. the kids' book "I love you forever". I'll probably lose my mommy badge for saying that, but it's creepy! It starts out OK, with the mom singing the "I love you forever" song to her baby.. then as he grows.. but when it ends with her sneaking over to his house in the middle of the night, when he's a grown man, and climbing in his window to sing the song to him (while he's sleeping).. yeah, my Mom would be getting a mental inquest warrant, not just a restraining order.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Everyone I knew talked about how it made them cry and I just couldn't see it. This is one book I've never read to my kids

Was anyone else amused when watching "50 First Dates", when Adam Sandler did the same approach on different days and the first time, it worked but the next time, she beat him up?

Regarding Beauty and the Beast, I preferred it to other princess movies because Belle stood up to the beast, yelled back at him and followed her own mind. None of the "I'll do whatever you tell me" of Little Mermaid and pre-destined-can't-fight-it love of Sleeping Beauty. My mom didn't like the movie because she considered Belle a "brat" for rejecting her town and people, so as with all children's stories and their meanings, YMMV.

Beauty and the Beast is one of the few disney princesses I'd be okay with my daughter emulating. She reads no matter how strange the town thinks she is, she refuses to allow Gaston to bully her into marriage, she doesn't hesitate to run to rescue her father, she stands up to the Beast when he's a jerk and then defends him when the townspeople come to kill him. Her and Mulan, they are the good ones.

Don't forget, Princess Leia is now a Disney princess too

We also have Merida now. So, she accidentally turns her mother into a bear but she learns that her mother was not a subserviant as she thought. She competes and 'wins' her own hand in marriage and then gets together with her 3 potential 'grooms' who don't want to marry either and together they convince their fathers to change the laws so they can marry whomever they want. Oh, and she can shoot a bow and arrow. She's cool. I like BabyJ imitating her.

-Sting - Every Breath You TakeI think this one is so notorious I don't need to say any more - except to note that Sting appears to be as horrified as I am by the number of people who use this one as their first dance at their wedding!-Whitney Houston - Saving All My LoveShe's having an affair with a married man. This is romantic, how?-Brother Beyond - The Harder I TryAnyone who wants to "make you love me" ought to be told to take a long walk off a short pier-Various people - Better The Devil You Know *So it's better to be with a lying cheating scumbag than it is to be single? Thanks; I'll stick with microwave dinners for one!

And those are just the top four on my list of "Songs That Should Certainly Never Get Played At A Wedding Reception"

* I can think of two versions of this song and I don't think either of them are the originators!

If I remember, the eHell blog covered unfortunate songs used at weddings a time ago. It included such classics as "Send In The Clowns," and "The Lady Is a Tramp." Classy, though a little o/t.

The book posts remind me of a short story I'd really like to find again. Maybe I'll post it on TVTropes You Know That Show. Kind of creepy, but awesome, about a girl who came and visited a family about everyday, I think? All I remember is that she was kind, helpful, and grew sicker looking by the day, and the people she befriended were concerned over her and her never eat salt rule. So they gave her a huge meal of salted ham and she took a zombie like walk back to her house, behind her house, and laid back in her grave and went to sleep! Her mother chastised the people because you never feed salt to the dead...

Also one where a guy bought a dresser or a fancy desk of some sort secondhand, and found a pigeon hole in it. He uncovered a letter written by a girl who owned the dresser formerly, a longing for someone to love. He, for the fun of it, wrote a response letter and put it back in. The next time he looked, he received a response back from the girl, and it culminates into him putting some item in it (a scarf?) and he goes to look up a cemetery with her name. His personal item (scarf?) is found on the grave, with some sappy quote engraved to him.

((These were in a Middle School English book, btw. I quite liked the weirdness of it.))

Back O/T:

I never did like The Notebook. Really. I'm usually willing to suspend my belief in sane rules and logic and hinky meters for the sake of a hokey Rom-Com every once in a while (You've Got Mail and Made of Honor, notably), but even I couldn't watch that one.

I really like Merida, partly cause she's one of the few tomboy princesses in the Disney lineup. And forgive my ignorance of Scottish history but would she really have been a princess? I got the impression that her parents were just the leaders of their clan and Disney used the "princess" title out of convenience. That and she's Scottish and I have a soft spot for all things Celtic. Especially since there's a song sung in Irish Gaelic.

Logged

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here. Be cheerful, strive to be happy. -Desiderata

On another note, Diana Gabaldon's "Outlander." I know it's a period piece, but the part where Jamie does his "duty" and administers a proper beating to his wife soured me on the whole series. It's been a while since I read it but I think the wife eventually even accepts that it's her fault for driving him to it. NO.

I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but had to respond to this.

I thought that Jamie explained very well why he 'disciplined' Claire. it wasn't so much that he wanted too or that it was a duty, but that it was expected by his men, and made them realise she had been punished and they did not need to continue ostracizing her.

And she never forgave him. There is a scene in a much later book (set 20 or so years later) that she gets really mad at him for reminding her about it, gives him a piece of her mind, and storms off. Just my 2 cents.

Oh, another one.. the kids' book "I love you forever". I'll probably lose my mommy badge for saying that, but it's creepy! It starts out OK, with the mom singing the "I love you forever" song to her baby.. then as he grows.. but when it ends with her sneaking over to his house in the middle of the night, when he's a grown man, and climbing in his window to sing the song to him (while he's sleeping).. yeah, my Mom would be getting a mental inquest warrant, not just a restraining order.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Everyone I knew talked about how it made them cry and I just couldn't see it. This is one book I've never read to my kids

So many literal people!

My sons are 21 and 25, and I want to take care of them and ease their hurts now just as much as I did when they were 3 and 6. Of course I know I can't, and even if I could I mustn't ... they'd never grow unless I learned to let them go ... but I still want to. They have my heartstrings in their hand, and always will.

oh and another one -matilda. didn't properly secure her in the car on the way home from the hospital. the parents left her at home alone all day long from age zero. they didn't send her to school when they were supposed to. didn't remember her age. father was busy scamming people all day long. and they gave her up for adoption without blinking. great home for a child to grow up in...

I was going to mention that one! My daughter loves it for the "magic" Matilda can do, while I'm emphasizing the magic of the librarian telling Matilda about library cards.

Well Roald Dahl was never one for dealing in shades of grey. All of his bad characters are unrelentingly bad in everything they do, and usually ugly to boot. Yet I have yet to meet a child that doesn't love love love his books. then again, I remember my kindergarten teacher as being the most beautiful woman anywhere, ever, yet looking at old class photos she was really quite plain. So perhaps he just has a really good grip on how kid's minds work.

He actually had a rather interesting and relevant passage about beauty/ugliness in his novella The Twits:

Quote

If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it.

A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.

I love romances and romance novels, and it's frustrating for me because the common fantasy is one that really makes me mad! Namely the 'guy knows better than girl that she wants him, so it's OK for him to do any old thing to her so long as he's right'. Because if he were *wrong* he would be the villain, but since he's correct in that she's attracted to him, it's suddenly fine...? I recently read one by an author supposed to be funny (Julia Quinn). In it, the lovers are separated as teenagers, both thinking the other betrayed them (families didn't want them together). They meet again as adults and he is bent on revenge, which he seems to go about by 'compromising' her at every opportunity. Eventually she loses her position and he finds out she didn't actually betray her. He finds her again later, and decides that she will be his wife even though she doesn't want him. He ends up kidnapping her 'for her own good' (she's living in a bad part of town) and taking him to an isolated cabin. He also keeps getting angry at her for not immediately falling into his arms and doing what he thinks is best. While his 'revenge' scheme is shown by the text to be wrong, the stalking and kidnapping never is.

I love romances and romance novels, and it's frustrating for me because the common fantasy is one that really makes me mad! Namely the 'guy knows better than girl that she wants him, so it's OK for him to do any old thing to her so long as he's right'. Because if he were *wrong* he would be the villain, but since he's correct in that she's attracted to him, it's suddenly fine...? I recently read one by an author supposed to be funny (Julia Quinn). In it, the lovers are separated as teenagers, both thinking the other betrayed them (families didn't want them together). They meet again as adults and he is bent on revenge, which he seems to go about by 'compromising' her at every opportunity. Eventually she loses her position and he finds out she didn't actually betray her. He finds her again later, and decides that she will be his wife even though she doesn't want him. He ends up kidnapping her 'for her own good' (she's living in a bad part of town) and taking him to an isolated cabin. He also keeps getting angry at her for not immediately falling into his arms and doing what he thinks is best. While his 'revenge' scheme is shown by the text to be wrong, the stalking and kidnapping never is.

To be fair, this is changing. Romance novels from the 70's and 80's were often called "bodice-rippers" for good reason - rape was considered a valid plot point and a perfectly dandy means of ratcheting up the sexual tension. There are certainly plenty of modern romances in which the hero is a complete boor to the heroine - including situations like "this would totally be skeevy if they didn't have a magical paranormal attraction to each other" - but there are an increasing number which aren't like that. I read a lot of historical romance, and I'm writing one myself - and I've fallen into the habit of reading my favorite authors whom I can now trust not to do that! It's entirely possible to write an authentic 1815ish hero who is an arrogant jerk (because they kind of all were and hey, he needs room for character growth) but who nonetheless is ready to stop on a dime if the heroine shows the first sign of wanting him to.

I especially liked the bit about "Sure you're in a tree outside her bedroom window, but it's only so you can watch her sleep!"

Actually, pretty much every vampire "romantic gesture" I can think of creeps me out. I'm not sure it's because they're all extra creepy compared to non-supernatural idiocies, or if the added element of "Dead people are hot!" puts them over the top.

The worst example I can think of is from the sixth season of Buffy The Vampire Slayer. The scene where Spike attacks Buffy in her bathroom and essentially tries to rape her. The writers apparently thought that would come off as more romantically desperate than, you know, rape-y. If I recall correctly, the woman running the show at that point said it was based on a moment in her own life when she tried to force herself onto a guy to keep him from leaving her. Putting aside the fact that it's an incredibly ill-advised and despicable thing for a woman to do to a man, there's also the fact that it's especially creepy if you turn it around and make it a man doing it to a woman. Like it or not, our culture treats male on female violence differently than it treats female on male violence, and to throw a sexual element in on top of that? And still somehow think your audience will be okay with it? Not very bright.

Of course, there were some people who saw it as oh so romantic, as intended. That just goes to show you the usual sort of things this sort of situation goes to show you.

Really? That was supposed to be romantic? I always thought that it was meant to showcase that no matter how he felt about Buffy, Spike was still a revolting monster at heart. And further that when he realised that it was what inspired him to go get his soul back (so that he wouldn't be a revolting monster anymore and Buffy wouldn't be entirely justified in hating his guts). Admittedly I tend to rewatch the earlier seasons so I haven't seen it for ages, but that's my recollection.

It was a *brilliant* scene when I interpreted it my way. But romantic? No way on earth. (Also a woman trying to force herself onto a man to prevent him from leaving is revolting. I hate that some writer has tried to justify her moment of criminal assault by trying to fool the rest of us).

Your interpretation is the one the writers intended. The rape scene was meant to be horrifying. It was NOT meant to be romantic. It was intended to show both what Spike was still capable of, despite believing that he loved Buffy, and that their relationship was highly dysfunctional and damaging to Buffy. From that point on, both Spike and Buffy grew as people. According to the writers, they wanted something that was so awful that it would drive Spike to do what he did next (seek out a soul). And to that end, they were successful. Joss Whedon has said in interviews that doing the bathroom rape scene meant that they had to be very cautious with the characters' relationship from then on. The attempted rape is the reason that you never seen Spike and Buffy scrabbling in the 7th season, because Joss didn't want to give the impression that rape is something you just get over. I thought it was handled very delicately.

As to the writer's history, she drew from her own experiences which she realized long ago were VERY, VERY wrong. She was not justifying what she did. Not even remotely. That scene in Buffy was intended to be as disgusting and horrifying as it was.

Phew. 1/m so relieved. Thanks for restoring my faith in all things Joss