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Topic: The Decline of the Church (Read 10343 times)

You are entitled to your own opinion, but neither you nor the author of that segment of the article have provided the least bit of scriptural support for your view, and I think we all know why that would be......because there is no biblical support for post-millenialism.

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Christ has to triumpth!

I think you're around 2000 yrs behind the times. Let me ask you this, if Christ has yet to triumph, then on what grounds do you base your salvation?.My salvation is founded on the finished work of Christ, I'd suggest that if you're waiting for Christ to triumph, you're going to find yourself in trouble. Its not for no reason that Amillenialists are the eternal optimists , they base their beliefs on the solid foundation of scripture, believing that Christ has triumphed over Satan and now reigns with His saints in heaven and on earth, consider the following verses...

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He himself likewise shared in the same, that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death,that is , the devil.

Has Christ triumphed?, absolutely.

Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers , he made a public spectacle of them,triumphing over them in it.

and Revelation 1:18 I am He who lives , and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.Amen.And I have the keys of death and hades.

And much more than just triumphing over Satan, Christ is now reigning .

Philippians 2:9-10 Therefore God has also highly exalted Him,and given Him the name which is above every name. that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, of those in heaven,and of those on earth,and of those under the earth.

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Perhaps many here are just to pessimistic.

Far from it, and as you can see with the quoted verses, there is no reason for any believer to be pessimistic, God is sovereign and Christ is reigning, all I can say is that I have great assurance in knowing this rather than my fate being in the hands of men bringing about change, that's just not going to happen.

"Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.

For thou, LORD, hast made me glad through thy work: I will triumph in the works of thy hands."

Christ triumphed in His work on the cross, and we triumph in that, not in our desire to make the world Christian. Thus we sing praises to Him for that victory and the triumph is in God's perfect definition of the word. The church triumphant is not in man's warped understanding of the expansion of the kingdom over nations. But a glorious spiritual triumph for the elect of all nations. Just as it was not all Israel, but a remnant of Israel, so it is not all the nations, but a remnant of the nations. It was for this reason Satan was bound, not so the world could become Christian, but a remnant. That was not a failure, but success.

Psalms 106:47

"Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise."

Triumph means one thing to the wise, and another to the naive. God's intention is to gather the elect from the nations, not gather the nations to be elect. That will never happen. It's the church gathered from the world, not the world gathered to be the church. To be sure, this is Christ's sure triumph and it cannot be made null and void by Postmillennarian dogma, out of context Scriptures or vain charges of pessimism.

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>>>Here's a quote from a biblical article called "The Triumph of the Church"by Rev. William Einwechter<<<

Biblical to me means that you can support what you are saying by "quoting God" saying it in one fashion or another. It is support by scripture in context and in agreement with everything else the Bible states. We can't read the Bible in a vacuum, through passage assimilation or literal diffusion, and call it support. Again, it comes down to who's interpretations and definitions. The triumph of the church is "not" in the world becoming Christian, but in Christians coming from the world. Not in a faithful world, but a faithful remnant out of the world. Not in the world sealed, but in the tribes of Israel sealed.

Again, national Israel made the same type mistake of thinking victory and triumpth was Christ sitting in Jerusalem with a earthly reign, ruling over all the nations. Premillennialism tweeks that doctrine and follows suit, and Postmillennialism is "really" not that much different in thinking Christ's Kingdom is to save the world. Christ's Kingdom is not only "not" of this world, but His triumph is not a wporldly defined triumph, and never meant to be. He prayed not for the faith of the world, but faith for those who were "chosen" out of the world--and nothing has changed. The triumph is His overcoming the world in us, and we overcoming the world in Him.

Romans 8:36-39

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

That's our triumph, the millennial period is our "Golden Age" not a church era of making the world Christian. We are killed all the day long, and we go though great tribulation, being reviled and persecuted, and yet in all this the church triumphs. Rather than our causing a great revival of the world, our victory is that we cannot be overcome in Christ. That is not pessimism, it's God's unadulterated truth.

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>>>It is part of a biblical defense of Postmillennialism.<<<

No, it may be a part of a defense of Postmillennialism, but Biblical is another matter. Where is the rock or foundation of the unadulterated Word of God on which it is supposed to stand? In my view, there is no more Biblical defense of Postmillennialism as there is of Premillennialism. They both stand on worldly/carnal/natural understanding of the texts, as opposed to Spiritual. As I said, to me Biblical means if can be solidly supported by scripture, not just claimed to be supported, but scripture actually supporting (upholding) it. God's people affirm that the holy Scriptures are to be received as the authoritative Word of God, and likewise deny that the Scriptures receive their authority from man, the church or tradition. Thus, a post-millennial return of Christ is accurate as far as timing, while the alleged Golden Age/Christianized World/World Church/Postmillennial Church triumph is not. That is man's private interpretation, not something actually declared in Scripture.

Genesis 40:8a

"And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God?"

Left unspoken is that "if" interpretations belong only to God, then unless God is speaking to you in a thunder from the clouds, God's Word is the explicator. Or to put it another way, scripture interprets scripture. And there is nothing in scripture proving a defense of the doctrine of postmillennialism. It is foreign to the Scriptures.

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>>>The testimony of the word of God is clear concerning the future triumph of the Lord Jesus Christ and his church. <<<

Where? Explain yourself by God's Word that is allegedly "so clear" on this subject? Because as has been said by others, the church has already triumphed! It has already gained the victory. The remnant elect already predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ--from among the nations of the world.

John 16:33

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Note that doesn't say in the world there will come a time when peace shall rule, but in the world we WILL have tribulation. We will be reviled, we will be persecuted, that's no cause for pessimism. There will be no world wide peace on earth by the church, but our peace will be in Christ, which is why we triumph and also why Christ says we can be of good cheer in the midst of it. Is Christ pessimistic or giving us a slice of Biblical reality? The church has already overcome the world in Christ. That was all part of the regeneration. When we become the church, we have already triumphed. And when the last elect is sealed, the extension of the Kingdom is completed. Our testimony finished, as prophesied.

Call that nihilism, pessimism, cynicism, accuse us of misanthropy or say whatever you choose, but I call it the faith and patience of the saints.

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>>>It is hard sometimes to believe that such a glorious future awaits the church.<<<

Not on this sin cursed earth, in heaven! I don't know where you get that idea, but it's not from the Bible. On earth, we are as sheep in the midst of wolves, and yet in all this we are more than conquerors. This reviling in the world doesn't equate to "no victory and no triumph," nor does it mean that those who don't hold to a Postmillennial eschatology are pessimistic or think poorly of the church. We defend the truth, not a sentimental tradition or ideology.

1st Peter 3:13-15

"And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

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>>>In our day, the church is beset by problems on all sides and is in a state of decline and retreat.<<<

Now that's truth. The question is, how do you go from that truth to "but the world will be Christianized as the church and a glorious future awaits this earth because of the church? ...or something to that effect.

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-5

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

No great glorious revival illustrated here. God's word prophesies all throughout scripture, just the opposite.

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>>>Many teach that the best days of the church are behind us that and all that we can expect is the increase of evil and the triumph of wickedness as the age progress. But don't believe one word of it.<<<

On the contrary, believe every Word of it!

2nd Timothy 3:12-13

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

2nd Peter 3:3

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"

Here again God's Word is unambiguous in foretelling what sort of thing we should expect in the last days. Is it a great revival, God fearing prophets, the love of God increasing and a grand longing for the Word--or is it those who scoff at this, famine, a great shaking, a "me generation," of those who deride and deny the truth in order to justify themselves? You let us know when you find a verse from the last days declaring that, "there will come in the last days a great revival under Christ." Rather, the authoritative Word reads:

Revelation 20:7-8

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

Satan deceiving all the nations of the earth to attack the church doesn't sound like revival to me, or anyone who holds the Word as the authority and not wishful thinking. Indeed we can expect the increase of evil in the congregation because of the anti or substitute Christ, but in the end, God will return on the clouds of Glory to rapture the church and judge this army of rebellion.

Revelation 20:9-10

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (revelation 14:2). Not in a earthly revival, but in endurance in the face of the spirit of disobedience, perseverance when others in the congregation are falling away.

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>>>The Scripture declares that the best days for the church lie in the future;<<<

You can claim that if you like, but I request chapter and verse please. Then we can demonstrate clearly how the passage in question (wherever it is) doesn't not really speak of that at all. It's authority is in what it says, not in what man "thinks" it means. We interpret Scripture by Scripture, define Biblical terms by the Bible, take each passage in context. Doing this, the truth soon becomes clear.

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>>> in fact, a most glorious future awaits the followers of Christ!<<<

YES! ...in heaven!!

John 14:3-4

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Indeed, a most glorious future awaits the followers of Christ, in the place where He has prepared it for us.

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>>>Some have given up, and look only for Christ to rescue them from the present mess (and failure of the church) by the rapture.<<<

..and as usual, we have the obligatory "Straw Man," since none of us have either given up, are waiting for rescue, or look upon the church as a failure. First and foremost, we have already been rescued and delivered. Second, we haven't given up, it is us who are the ones warning of the robbers and thieves coming in the windows. And third, the only ones who understand the church is not a failure, are those who have the Spirit of Christ to realize how it triumphs even in Great Tribulation! We don't need world wide bliss and revival for the church/elect to triumph. No, Christ isn't coming to rescue His people, but it is Christ who says He will come to avenge the church. The question is, avenge them from what? is it for their great work in turning others in revival or because of their great persecution, being reviled and hated? I'm thoroughly comfortable with His words on why.

Matthew 24:11-1

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Again, here is the patience of the saints. here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (revelation 14:2). Not in having a Christian world, but in endurance in the face of the spirit of disobedience, perseverance when others in the congregation are falling away.

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>>> But don't be like them. Faithfully serve the Lord Jesus Christ, because the victory is ours through him who loved us. The church will triumph in his name over all the enemies of truth and righteousness.<<<

...and of course we all agree with this, so it's not in debate. Victory is ours through him who loved us. Not through creating a Christian world. That's not going to happen, no matter how hard you desire it. That's not God's plan. His plan is for a Remnant, an elect chosen by grace out of the multitude. Notice again how similar this folly is to that of National Israel who thought God's plan was to save the whole nation, when it was to save a remnant chosen by grace.

Romans 9:27

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

By authority of scripture, that was always God's plan. It wasn't a new plan, He didn't change his mind, it was always prophesied and the prophesy was sure. The New Testament congregation is not better than the old, it follows the example because it's the same Olive Tree with other brances.

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>>>Christ is at work in his church at this very hour, laying the foundation for a great resurgence of the Faith.<<<

Was that heard in a seance, because it sure isn't in Scripture. Scripture says Men will wax worse and worse, there will come a great falling away in the church, and ultimately Satan will be loosed and gather the nations of the world against the church. Then Christ will return in judgment upon them. Resurgence of worldwide faith? There has never been worldwide faith, and so there cannot be a resurgence. Resurgence means a rising again of something that was before risen. So then, when was there ever faith on a world wide scale? Christ shall come to avenge His church because it is being persecuted and hated.

Luke 18:7-8

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

Resurgence of faith? No. Christ is at work in his church at this very hour, not laying the foundation for a great resurgence of the faith, but keeping them in their hour of trial.

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>>>We know this, not by sight, but by faith in the word of God that proclaims the triumph of the church in the world and in history".<<<

I'd Just Love for you (or anyone for that matter) to post these Words of God that you claim declare this, because in all my years on this sin cursed earth, I have never seen one single verse given that wasn't misquoted, taken out of context, misinterpreted or just plain misapplied. The church triumphs of course, but it has been triumphing since Christ was resurrected from the dead, so to coin a phrase, where's the beef?

1st Thessalonians 5:20-21

"Despise not prophesyings.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

The word of God proclaims the church triumphs, not the triumph of the church worldly manner or in history as making the world Christian. The church is not glorified in the world becoming Christian, but Christ is glorified in the remnant chosen brought out of the world. There is a difference!

John 17:8-10

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."

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>>>He said it better than I could.<<<

That's the problem. "he" said it, with no Biblical proof texts. We call that "Proof by assertion," which means no proof at all. He might have said "something" better than you could, but to be fair that's not the test of true orthodoxy. Anyone can say anything, but the queston is, is it verified by scripture. Correct? That's the beauty and ugliness of the liberty of the tongue. Just saying something doesn't make it true. Authority of scripture does. And I note that your post had exactly "none" to support anything he said.

...and that says something.

"nosce te ipsum"Tony Warren

"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

I know that there are some things going on with Church that are kinda weird but I think that the church is not as bad as it probably used to be. Some people have already said that the Church was just as bad or worse in the 1500s. I mean the Church use to burn people they thought were witches so that's pretty bad don't you think?

The church has always had problems, but one of the worst of them is indifference! At least back in the 1500's they reconginized witchcraft! Now they even allow that to some extent in the church!

Pam

The worst is indifference, which is now more widespread than ever in the house of God. Is there a greater problem in the church than the inability of its members to recognize its sins, decline and inevitable fall? If there is, I can't imagine it. I agree that this idea that the church is not as bad as it probably used to be is so naive that it reminds me of brain washing. But I keep hearing it over and over again as if Christians are out of touch with reality. The attitudes about sex, divorce, children, homosexuality and immorality have never, ever been like this in the church before. The very fact that so many Christians don't believe that shows the depths of this problem.