danieLion wrote:This is only a dilemma for those who believe they need a teacher; but even then, there are plenty of good free ones. IMO, ordained teachers are more trustworthy because they don't charge. So, if you feel you can't live without a teacher, find an ordained one and prevent the issue of payment from even arising.

Ordained people need to eat too.

"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah

I recently attended a retreat that was led by a lay teacher. While the cost of the food and accommodation was a set cost, any payment to the teacher was by dana. The teacher gave a very inspired talk explaining that Dhamma is not part of the orthodox economy, but part of the economy of the gift (dana) that was central to Dhamma and which can never have a price attached, as I'm sure most of us are aware is because it is essentially priceless.

This is an excellent example of how teaching the Dhamma needs to be approached IMO. By lay teachers making people aware that they survive by dana, you will find most people are more than willing to give generously, and importantly it enables people with limited funds not to be excluded. Once a price is put on Dhamma, it's on the slippery slope to becoming a commodity and losing it's purity.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks that the Dhamma is provided without someone paying is kidding themselves. At typical monasteries in the West the immigrant community (Thai, Sri Lankan, etc) provides enough support so it really doesn't matter to them whether those doing retreats contribute anything. Which is great, since different people have different capabilities for paying.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Thank you Retro, I was just encouraging Zom to provide a citation with his comment rather than just an unsupported assertion of what the Buddha did or did not do.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

danieLion wrote:This is only a dilemma for those who believe they need a teacher; but even then, there are plenty of good free ones. IMO, ordained teachers are more trustworthy because they don't charge. So, if you feel you can't live without a teacher, find an ordained one and prevent the issue of payment from even arising.GoodwillDaniel

lack of charge does not mean they are trustworthy, or know what they are talking about.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

Sorry, I can't be bothered digging around the suttas just to prove this to you. If you care enough to look, the general theme is that someone who wasn't a follower of the Dhamma is convinced by the Buddha on matters pertaining to the Dhamma and then they make offerings which are rejected because they are interpreted by the Buddha as 'payment' for received teaching. That is not the basis upon which the Buddhadhamma is taught.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Sorry, I can't be bothered digging around the suttas just to prove this to you.

Seriously.

If you care enough to look, the general theme is that someone who wasn't a follower of the Dhamma is convinced by the Buddha on matters pertaining to the Dhamma and then they make offerings which are rejected because they are interpreted by the Buddha as 'payment' for received teaching,

It would be interesting to actually see the text (or texts, if there is, in fact, more than one in question). What presents itself immediately is that this concerns a person who was initially a non-follower, so it would interesting to see the full context. Sorry you cannot be bothered, however.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Yes, seriously... I know Zom is correct. It's not going to bring me any closer to enlightenment to hunt around through the Sutta Pitaka for the benefit of those who don't believe him. I have other things to do.

tiltbillings wrote:Sorry you cannot be bothered, however.

If I could think of a combination of unique keywords to search by I would... but I can't think of what would return the sutta(s) in question. I'm pretty sure it is multiple suttas too...

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Yes, seriously... I know Zom is correct. It's not going to bring me any closer to enlightenment to hunt around through the Sutta Pitaka for the benefit of those who don't believe him. I have other things to do.

I don't disbelieve him. I'd simply like to see the text(s) for myself. It has been the common courtesy here to provide the text one refers to. I'd hate to think that that is changing.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Yes, seriously... I know Zom is correct. It's not going to bring me any closer to enlightenment to hunt around through the Sutta Pitaka for the benefit of those who don't believe him. I have other things to do.

But this issue is important in thinking about the possible shape of Buddhism in the West, so it would be nice to have some sutta references to support opinions.

The Sutta I quoted, and many others with the same scenario, appear to indicate a symbiotic relationship between the laity and the Sangha, where the laity supported the Sangna, expecting them to not only practise for their own awakening, but to communicate Dhamma to the laity.

"There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion:...When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. ...