She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said the family believes in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but she said they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked if an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

I don't know if these people are criminally insane or just criminals; but one way or the other, it seems like a pretty obvious case of second degree murder and child abuse and a good reason why people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce without some degree of social oversight.

I'm sure you are going to follow this up with an article about how parents really raised their kids right and how their kids are super successful right? Or are you going to just present one side of the story?

I do agree that this is going way to far, and there should be legal ramifications for the parents. Second degree murder might be too much though...I'm not that familiar with the penal code, so I can't say what I would suggest, but something for sure should be done about this. They have a responsibility to their child LEGALLY, much less religiously.

This is a good reason to belong to 'organized religion'. I also think this article is taking an uneccesary swipe at people of faith. So what, that the kid hasnt gone to a doctor since she was 3? Ive only been to the doctor about 3 times in 20 years.

Something very similar happened here with a little girl that passed away because her parents wouldn't give her insulin and just prayed instead. They were Christian Scientists. Needless to say the parents and the pastor went to prison. This was something that was ongoing for years with these parents. It was not an overnight event for them, they let their daughter suffer for years.

Something very similar happened here with a little girl that passed away because her parents wouldn't give her insulin and just prayed instead. They were Christian Scientists. Needless to say the parents and the pastor went to prison. This was something that was ongoing for years with these parents. It was not an overnight event for them, they let their daughter suffer for years.

Let's just see the flip side for the moment: what if the parents, in their desparation, tried experimental treatment after experimental treatment, and the child suffered more and more. Is that child abuse?

I'm not for the CS. But that's a question of true and false theology.

No, it's not a question of common sense. There are plenty of philosophies that are fine with whatever you do with your kid. Or anyone else for that matter.

Humanism is a value system just like any one else. Here, it just so happens that it and Orthodoxy overlap.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 06:21:27 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Let's just see the flip side for the moment: what if the parents, in their desparation, tried experimental treatment after experimental treatment, and the child suffered more and more. Is that child abuse?

If they tried it themselves? Probably. If they allowed a physician to do it and he failed, he would be subject to professional and potentially legal review. Even in trying experimental treatments there has to be repeatable and verifiable evidence that suggests it is viable.

Now, if these parents had inflicted several mice with a similar stran of diabetes, had prayed over them, properly documented their research, had their research verified by peer review, and objectively demonstrated that their prayer was more effective than current medical treatments. Then, and only then, would I conclude that their attempt to use this treatment on their daughter was reasonable and should not be subject to criminal review.

Unfortunately, I must have missed that paper when scanning through the last issue of Nature.

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I'm not for the CS. But that's a question of true and false theology.

No, it's not a question of common sense. There are plenty of philosophies that are fine with whatever you do with your kid. Or anyone else for that matter.

Philosophies which also conflict with the concept of rule of law and equality under the law.

This is a good reason to belong to 'organized religion'. I also think this article is taking an uneccesary swipe at people of faith.

It takes a (very fair) swipe at fundamentalism, which is the problem here. Whether it's part of an organized religion or independent of one, the problem is when people value their religion above reason and the humanistic ideals of our society.

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So what, that the kid hasnt gone to a doctor since she was 3? Ive only been to the doctor about 3 times in 20 years.

The difference being that they knew she had a deadly, but treatable, disease. I don't go to the doctor much either, but if I knew I had childhood diabeties and was displaying the symptoms of fatally low insulin, I'd be showing up at the hospital.

Let's just see the flip side for the moment: what if the parents, in their desparation, tried experimental treatment after experimental treatment, and the child suffered more and more. Is that child abuse?

I'm not for the CS. But that's a question of true and false theology.

No, it's not a question of common sense. There are plenty of philosophies that are fine with whatever you do with your kid. Or anyone else for that matter.

Humanism is a value system just like any one else. Here, it just so happens that it and Orthodoxy overlap.

This was an issue of them just giving her insulin and she'd end up in the hospital. In the local case the simple practice of insulin shots done according to doctor's orders and the girl would have been fine. It's not like they were protesting or not giving her some extremely experimental surgery or something in an extreme case.The parents simply refused to administer the little girl her insulin AT ALL, this is why she died in the local case.

Yes, if a child doesn't seem like herself you get her to a doctor. The Emergency Room is open 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The hospital has helicopters and there exists ambulances if you can't get her to the hospital to see a doc in an emergency.

I do agree that this is going way to far, and there should be legal ramifications for the parents. Second degree murder might be too much though...I'm not that familiar with the penal code, so I can't say what I would suggest, but something for sure should be done about this. They have a responsibility to their child LEGALLY, much less religiously.

Actually, this is almost a textbook case of murder where one has a legal duty to the victim. If this had happened in Texas, they'd be looking at a long vacation, courtesy of the state.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

Based on the parts of the article that I've left above, it seems that these people are very family-oriented and have a strong faith in God. I'm kinda leaning towards the view that there was neglect, but I'll wait until all the facts come out. But regardless of whether or not they're guilty, I'm sure the loss of their little girl, compounded with the fact that public opinion is weighing against them, is got to be crushing them emotionally. Lord have mercy on all involved.

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Yes, our latest jail bird governor, Mr. Ryan, disappointed them all here in Illinois, and pulled all the wounds of the families open in the process.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Based on the parts of the article that I've left above, it seems that these people are very family-oriented and have a strong faith in God. I'm kinda leaning towards the view that there was neglect, but I'll wait until all the facts come out. But regardless of whether or not they're guilty, I'm sure the loss of their little girl, compounded with the fact that public opinion is weighing against them, is got to be crushing them emotionally. Lord have mercy on all involved.

Well, hopefully they can soon add being traded for cigarettes to their list of woes.

Not to sound like a tasteless monster, but this article brings new meaning to the words "Faith without works is dead", doesn't it? Just a thought... In Russia, there's a spiritual saying: "Pray to God, but row for shore".

« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 01:01:12 AM by Myrrh23 »

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We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator

The whole situation is tragic and this phenomena of believing the Bible to not avail oneself of medicine is most unfortunate. There are some "Bible believing" Christians who become vexed over abortion because even though it is wrong, it is not clearly stated so "Biblically" (in their perception). Of course, another problem arises over as to what constitutes scripture as to what a "Bible believing" Christian would follow. In the Book of Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus) chptr 38:1-15 outlines God's providence towards the physician, medicine, & interaction of prayer with it. Such an understanding of what is scripture would solve some problems that now exist for some individuals.

These people should be prosecuted for murder, but prison rape is not a laughing matter.

These people are deeply tragic; their hearts may have been right but they are deeply distorted and must repent in tears for what seems to be an unintentional, but deeply grave, sin. Surely major legal address must be given but they are not murderers or criminals. Most Holy Theotokos pray to our Saviour for them. Lord have mercy. Memory eternal to the poor little girl.

These people are deeply tragic; their hearts may have been right but they are deeply distorted and must repent in tears for what seems to be an unintentional, but deeply grave, sin. Surely major legal address must be given but they are not murderers or criminals. Most Holy Theotokos pray to our Saviour for them. Lord have mercy. Memory eternal to the poor little girl.

I would have to agree. The essential difference between murder and manslaughter is the presence or absence of malice aforethought. Clearly these parents had no malice towards their daughter. At worst, a legal charge of involuntary manslaughter could be levied against the parents, at least in the state of Maryland (Palmer v. State, 223 Md 341, 164 A2d 467). I'm sure there have been similar cases throughout other courts.

The question to be asked is if the District Attorney feels like justice would be served in prosecuting these parents. It's cases like these that make me glad I'm a) not an attorney and b) most definitely not a DA.

May God have mercy on all these parties, and may this poor little girl's memory be eternal.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

These people are deeply tragic; their hearts may have been right but they are deeply distorted and must repent in tears for what seems to be an unintentional, but deeply grave, sin. Surely major legal address must be given but they are not murderers or criminals. Most Holy Theotokos pray to our Saviour for them. Lord have mercy. Memory eternal to the poor little girl.

I think their actions show a depraved indifference to human life, and in some jurisdictions a depraved indifference homicide is prosecuted as second-degree murder, while a few prosecute it as manslaughter. I'm not sure what Wisconsin calls it, but I hope it's murder. These parents deprived this girl of medication that would have spared her a month of misery and saved her life. They had a duty to care for a vulnerable human being and they failed her. May her memory be eternal, and may God have mercy on her parents.

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He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better.

I think their actions show a depraved indifference to human life, and in some jurisdictions a depraved indifference homicide is prosecuted as second-degree murder, while a few prosecute it as manslaughter. I'm not sure what Wisconsin calls it, but I hope it's murder. These parents deprived this girl of medication that would have spared her a month of misery and saved her life. They had a duty to care for a vulnerable human being and they failed her. May her memory be eternal, and may God have mercy on her parents.

I understand & respect your sentiment but at heart they really seemed to be loving their daughter however warped & twisted that may seem. They do not fit the bill of being monsters, are probably the most sorrowful people who are already being punished by the loss of their little one. I"m sure any close relatives must be wracking their minds over this too.

I think their actions show a depraved indifference to human life, and in some jurisdictions a depraved indifference homicide is prosecuted as second-degree murder, while a few prosecute it as manslaughter. I'm not sure what Wisconsin calls it, but I hope it's murder. These parents deprived this girl of medication that would have spared her a month of misery and saved her life. They had a duty to care for a vulnerable human being and they failed her. May her memory be eternal, and may God have mercy on her parents.

Speaking as a law librarian, I think the DA would find it much more difficult to prosecute under a 2nd degree murder charge as opposed to one of manslaughter. He could most definitely make a very convincing argument for the latter charge while the other would necessarily cause him to prove malice which in these type of cases is exceptionally difficult to do. The chances increase almost exponentially if these parents are prosecuted for manslaughter due to willful negligence. In this case, a defense attorney could easily invoke the First Amendment and prove to a jury that the parents truly believed they were acting in the interests of their child through prayer, thus removing any argument of depraved (eg malicious) indifference. Again, it would be an uphill battle for the DA.

In the end, would a 2nd degree murder charge bring the little girl back? Would not a manslaughter conviction (if pursued and attained) show the parents the gravity of their willful negligence? Not knowing the parties personally, I would think that they would think twice and perhaps study their Bible further while serving time and find those passages in Sirach re: God's providence in the medical profession.

I would think that the loss of their little girl would be a punishment that would haunt them for the rest of their lives if they are, indeed, the God fearing people they seem to be. A conviction of manslaughter would be fitting from this legal researchers POV.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Not to sound like a tasteless monster, but this article brings new meaning to the words "Faith without works is dead", doesn't it? Just a thought... In Russia, there's a spiritual saying: "Pray to God, but row for shore".

So funny because that sounds exactly like something I would say, "Pray to God but row for shore!"

Speaking as a law librarian, I think the DA would find it much more difficult to prosecute under a 2nd degree murder charge as opposed to one of manslaughter. He could most definitely make a very convincing argument for the latter charge while the other would necessarily cause him to prove malice which in these type of cases is exceptionally difficult to do. The chances increase almost exponentially if these parents are prosecuted for manslaughter due to willful negligence.

It may be an uphill battle, but the more religious people he can manage to block from the jury the better his chances are of getting a conviction. Negligent homicide can be second degree murder, even without malice. A drunk driver does not necessarily have any malice towards someone he hits and kills, but he is engaging in wanton and reckless conduct and thus can be subject to second-degree murder charges. How much more wanton and reckless would denying a child medicine, not over the few hours when the drunk driver engaged in poor judgement, but over a month? This is a crime immeasurably worse than killing someone while driving under the influence; personally I think they should be accused of torture and capital murder...but second-degree murder with the special circumstances of child abuse is probably the best our system would allow.

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In this case, a defense attorney could easily invoke the First Amendment and prove to a jury that the parents truly believed they were acting in the interests of their child through prayer, thus removing any argument of depraved (eg malicious) indifference. Again, it would be an uphill battle for the DA.

The legal charges are based on whether or not a reasonable person would believe that these people were acting in the best interests of their child. Regardless of what these people thought, it should be obvious that a reasonable person would know that denying medicine to a diabetic child is not in their best interests and is criminally reckless. Now, it could be argued that these people were not reasonable and not capable of knowing that their actions are immoral; but if this is the case, they should be confined to an institution for the criminally insane.

As for the Frist Amendment argument here, it's moot for the same reason that it would be moot in the case of a sect performing human sacrifices. The First Amendment provides you the right to believe whatever you want, but it does not extend to allowing you to inflict your beliefs on others; it does not extend to the endangering or taking of another's life, liberty, or property.

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In the end, would a 2nd degree murder charge bring the little girl back? Would not a manslaughter conviction (if pursued and attained) show the parents the gravity of their willful negligence? Not knowing the parties personally, I would think that they would think twice and perhaps study their Bible further while serving time and find those passages in Sirach re: God's providence in the medical profession.

While this is one motivation behind prosecution, it may also be prudent to send a message to others who would consider engaging in similar child abuse.

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I would think that the loss of their little girl would be a punishment that would haunt them for the rest of their lives if they are, indeed, the God fearing people they seem to be. A conviction of manslaughter would be fitting from this legal researchers POV.

But would such a punishment be fitting when compared to the far harsher penalties for crimes which result from less severe examples of neglect and poor judgement (such as vehicular homicide while intoxicated)? Legal consistency should dictate second-degree murder charges.

No one seems to be arguing that legal redress is not required & a form of institutionalization is an option. But in a revolving door system in which murders are committed (literally sometimes) for small change & reduced sentences given for plea bargains & prison overcrowding these people need not be scapegoated. Additionally what was done was not on "honor" killing, what will be the implications of these if Sharia law clashes with constitutional law?

You may be right, theoretically speaking. But you have to understand that DAs are under public pressure to get results (ie convictions) and oftentimes they choose lesser crimes to prosecute against given the probable defense strategy. Precedential caselaw in this area can go either way in regards to a 2nd degree murder charge, especially if the intent of the parents is ambiguous and their characters are otherwise unstained. I see stuff like this happen every day and we don't even practice that much criminal law.

There is a fantastic legal review on the subject in the Boston Univ. Public Interest Law Journal (12 B.U. Pub. Int. L.J. 363) on the topic. I'd be happy to email you (or anyone else for that matter). PM me.

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

pope shenouda says that god control universe by laws not by miraclesthese ones had misunderstood biblical meanings many peoples have misunderstanding to evangilical verses like origene who castrate himself

Speaking as a law librarian, I think the DA would find it much more difficult to prosecute under a 2nd degree murder charge as opposed to one of manslaughter. He could most definitely make a very convincing argument for the latter charge while the other would necessarily cause him to prove malice which in these type of cases is exceptionally difficult to do. The chances increase almost exponentially if these parents are prosecuted for manslaughter due to willful negligence. In this case, a defense attorney could easily invoke the First Amendment and prove to a jury that the parents truly believed they were acting in the interests of their child through prayer, thus removing any argument of depraved (eg malicious) indifference. Again, it would be an uphill battle for the DA.

Well, I only graduated from the Dick Wolf School of Law , so I will defer to your expertise. However, I wasn't trying to say what charge would most likely support a conviction, only what I think they are guilty of based on their own words in the article. If they wanted her dead, it's true that there are more efficient and clear-cut ways of killing than diabetes. But if one of her parents had pulled out a gun and shot her dead, and said that they had trusted God to block the bullet, we wouldn't even be arguing this.

I don't claim to be a legal expert, but if I'm not mistaken, custodial parents have a duty of care toward their children. A parent knowingly refuses to provide his child with needed care despite that care being available, and is in a position where a reasonable person would understand that the child may die without that care. If the child dies as a result of his caregiver's failure to provide, it is essentially the same as if he had pulled out a gun and shot that child.

Malicious indifference may be next-to-impossible to prove in a courtroom for this case, and so a manslaughter charge would be more appropriate to make sure those parents do some hard time, but I think they are guilty of murder and deserve to be convicted of it, however unlikely such a conviction would be.

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In the end, would a 2nd degree murder charge bring the little girl back?

No, but neither will a manslaughter charge, or a hill of magic beans. Nothing our legal system can dish out could possibly bring her back from the dead, so you cannot use that fact to support a manslaughter charge instead of a murder charge.

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He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better.

A parent knowingly refuses to provide his child with needed care despite that care being available, and is in a position where a reasonable person would understand that the child may die without that care. If the child dies as a result of his caregiver's failure to provide, it is essentially the same as if he had pulled out a gun and shot that child.

The problem is that, according to the article, there was no actual diagnosis which would lead one to believe that the illness was actually fatal and not just a lingering non-fatal condition. In this case, technically speaking, the parents did not knowingly refuse a child medical treatment. A defense attorney could easily argue that ignorance of such a diagnosis leads the parents not be culpable in the murder of their child (see FAITH, HARM, AND NEUTRALITY: SOME COMPLEXITIES OF FREE EXERCISE LAW by Caleb Mason, 44 Duq. L. Rev 225, 268). Indeed, as the facts are presented in the article (the real facts, may of course, be different but we don't have anything else to go on at the moment), there was no reason to believe that the child was, in fact, afflicted with a life-threatening illness until very near her death. From my point of view, they most certainly should have called an ambulance when she first started to show signs of serious illness, but the fact remains that the parents did not and could not have known that their daughter was going to die from an untreated diabetic condition, which throws willful negligence or malicious indifference out the window. It must noted that, in the end, the father did actually administer CPR, a fact that would carry much weight in fighting an accusation of willful murder (even in the second degree) in court.

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No, but neither will a manslaughter charge, or a hill of magic beans. Nothing our legal system can dish out could possibly bring her back from the dead, so you cannot use that fact to support a manslaughter charge instead of a murder charge.

But I can use the fact that under Wisconsin law, "second degree reckless homicide" (WSA 940.06) (as apparently Wisconsin state law does not recognize the crime of "manslaughter" as most jurisdictions understand it) would be the proper charge these parents should face if the DA find criminal charges necessary and then the DA would have to prove that these parents were, indeed, criminally reckless. Considering that in State v. Chapman (499 N.W.2d 222, 175 Wis.2d 231), the defendent was acquitted of such charges where the defendant was charged with first-degree intentional homicide of his infant child after he buried the child whom he thought was dead (but only in a coma) after the state did not establish recklessness and offered no support for view that defendant was actually and subjectively aware of risk that burying child without seeking medical confirmation of death was reckless. A good defense attorney could argue similarily that the ignorance of the parents re: their child's diabetes was not criminally reckless.

Note: edit to properly cite Wisconsin law

« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 04:15:41 PM by Schultz »

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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

They do not fit the bill of being monsters, are probably the most sorrowful people who are already being punished by the loss of their little one. I"m sure any close relatives must be wracking their minds over this too.

Either that, or they're just chalking it up as being "God's Will".

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pope shenouda says that god control universe by laws not by miracles

Being someone having a science background, I truly truly believe this and admire that God is concrete like this, even if suffering is often nonsensical.When I look at the complexity of Nature and Space, I feel that God knows what He's doing, especially when it comes to medicine. I think He designed the answers we have found to medical problems.

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How much more wanton and reckless would denying a child medicine, not over the few hours when the drunk driver engaged in poor judgement, but over a month?

I can imagine that child begging her parents for help...The mother gave birth to a child and nursed her, and I can't understand how this girl's mother wouldn't do anything in her power to help her child. If I were her, even if religious others were trying to shock and scare me with Hellfire into going along, I'd still try to do everything in my power to save my kid. I think these people were brainwashed in the exact same way that Scientology brainwashes people....

« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 04:51:30 PM by Myrrh23 »

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We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator

The problem is that, according to the article, there was no actual diagnosis which would lead one to believe that the illness was actually fatal and not just a lingering non-fatal condition. In this case, technically speaking, the parents did not knowingly refuse a child medical treatment.

But that is exactly what they did, Family members were begging these people for days to take the girl to the hospital. The mother admitted knowing something was very seriously wrong with this kid - she was in a coma - and still said she would fight it if paramedics tried to intervene. Are you saying that the coma wouldn't have clued in a reasonable person that the girl was dying? Refusing to allow paramedics doesn't qualify as refusing medical treatment?

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Indeed, as the facts are presented in the article (the real facts, may of course, be different but we don't have anything else to go on at the moment), there was no reason to believe that the child was, in fact, afflicted with a life-threatening illness until very near her death. From my point of view, they most certainly should have called an ambulance when she first started to show signs of serious illness, but the fact remains that the parents did not and could not have known that their daughter was going to die from an untreated diabetic condition, which throws willful negligence or malicious indifference out the window. It must noted that, in the end, the father did actually administer CPR, a fact that would carry much weight in fighting an accusation of willful murder (even in the second degree) in court.

If you see someone having a seizure, do you sit around trying to diagnose the cause of the seizures (head injury, epilepsy, brain tumor, etc.) before doing anything for him, or do you just try to keep the person from injuring himself and call the paramedics? It's hard for me to acknowledge their performing CPR as a serious attempt to save her life, considering the lengths her parents went to in order to make that attempt necessary. This girl didn't just drop dead out of the blue, she was sick and suffering for a month, very obviously critically ill for several days, and the only thing her parents did on her behalf was actively drive away anyone who would help her.

I'm sorry, it just really upsets me to know that while they were patting themselves on the back for their "faith", they made sure their daughter would never get to grow up, get married, or have kids of her own. The nicest explanation I can think of for her parents' behavior is that they were too pig-headed to realize that God is not to be tested and really thought what they did was best, but I'd say the more likely explanation, demonstrated by their total lack of compassion for their child's suffering, is that they were so caught up in their own ideas, that they didn't care about the danger or whether she lived or died. Whatever else happens, I hope they never see any of their surviving children ever again.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 12:30:46 AM by Matrona »

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He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better.

One has to wonder if people who do this sort of thing are mentally deficient in some way. Not that that makes their actions any the less reprehensible. There was a case in NZ a few years back where a couple allowed their six month old son to die for want of a B12 shot. They were some kind of extreme SDAs and strict vegans. The baby was very ill, but they refused medication on the grounds that they were Christians; they actually took him into hiding to avoid the doctors treating him. He died of pneumonia - poor little mite. The couple represented themselves, carrying Bibles throughout their trial. I think they got five years each and the woman gave birth four months into the sentence.

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

These people, in all the examples given, are probably criminally insane. As much as I'd like to see them hanged they probably need to be confined to a psychiatric hospital for a long time, they clearly need medication and therapy and probably shouldn't be allowed to have children again.

These people, in all the examples given, are probably criminally insane. As much as I'd like to see them hanged they probably need to be confined to a psychiatric hospital for a long time, they clearly need medication and therapy and probably shouldn't be allowed to have children again.

There is more to labeling someone "criminally insane" than just assumption. 99% of all sociopaths and psychopaths know right from wrong and aren't clinically considered inept to stand for trial. Sounds like their interpretation of Faith may have led them to make this decision (total assumption based on the article on the internet). Belief in a higher power doesn't constitute a man criminally insane.

These people, in all the examples given, are probably criminally insane. As much as I'd like to see them hanged they probably need to be confined to a psychiatric hospital for a long time, they clearly need medication and therapy and probably shouldn't be allowed to have children again.

I would like to know how you would (or would you?) distinguish them from "parents" who believe in medicine, and simply don't care that their child is sick and suffering?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

No more so than I believe in the power of rabbit's feet and four leaf clovers; the only benefits to prayer are purely psychological. Whether or not there is a God is up for debate, but the fact that if there is one he doesn't intervene directly in the world should be obvious to everyone.

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I think a parent should do both. (both pray & seek doctors) But to call it second hand murder is going too far.

Not second hand, second degree. They are directly responsible for killing her, just as responsible as they would have been if they put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger themselves.

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I can understand why an Atheist or an Agnostic would say something like that......because prayer to them is meaningless. But why are you saying this?

Not every theist believes in a personal and involved deity. If there are deities of some sort I don't really think they intervene in the lives of men, they sit back and are uninvolved. The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

Perhaps it's senility setting in, but as I get older, I find less and less "logic" in the world, and we've only "progressed if you count technological advancement. In everything else, we seem to be devolving.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Perhaps it's senility setting in, but as I get older, I find less and less "logic" in the world, and we've only "progressed if you count technological advancement. In everything else, we seem to be devolving.

No more so than I believe in the power of rabbit's feet and four leaf clovers; the only benefits to prayer are purely psychological. Whether or not there is a God is up for debate, but the fact that if there is one he doesn't intervene directly in the world should be obvious to everyone.

Not second hand, second degree. They are directly responsible for killing her, just as responsible as they would have been if they put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger themselves.

Not every theist believes in a personal and involved deity. If there are deities of some sort I don't really think they intervene in the lives of men, they sit back and are uninvolved. The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

Thanks for letting me know where you stand. I'm not mad at you.

JNORM888

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

Wouldn't you say that any sensible believer would follow the advice of Myrrh's Russian saying - "Pray to God and row for the shore?"

I also wonder what kind of aid they were expecting. Someone else has probably mentioned it, but this sort of thing reminds me of the joke about the guy lost at see who prayers to God to help him and then goes on to refuse all mundane offers of aid that arrive. He drowns, and when he's question at the gates of heaven as to why he refused the help, he states he was waiting for God to help him. God then asks him who does he think sent him the people who were offering help.

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

No more so than I believe in the power of rabbit's feet and four leaf clovers; the only benefits to prayer are purely psychological. Whether or not there is a God is up for debate, but the fact that if there is one he doesn't intervene directly in the world should be obvious to everyone.

Not to be simple, but I will be. What about miracles? There are miracles that are definitely NOT purely psychological. What would you say to that?

No more so than I believe in the power of rabbit's feet and four leaf clovers; the only benefits to prayer are purely psychological. Whether or not there is a God is up for debate, but the fact that if there is one he doesn't intervene directly in the world should be obvious to everyone.

Funny, most of us here are getting ready to celebrate His direct intervention. That should be obvious to everyone.

I remember being told, while watching a film on the Ethiopian famine, that that was the reason they couldn't "believe in the Christian God, when He allows that." I replied, "fine, there's no God. Now who do you blame?"

It has been my experience that those who deny God's existence or involvement by asserting it rather than proving it, do so because of disappointment that He won't fit in their agendas.

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Not second hand, second degree. They are directly responsible for killing her, just as responsible as they would have been if they put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger themselves.

I'd love to know what you are going to be with all those parents who overdrugged their kids on ritalin, it being only a matter of time until that medical wonder comes to a head.

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Not every theist believes in a personal and involved deity. If there are deities of some sort I don't really think they intervene in the lives of men, they sit back and are uninvolved. The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

Or perhaps God is more consistent than you.

Btw, your sig: Lao Tzu obviously didn't read "Lord of the Flies."

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Can't say I'm surprised. Unintentional manslaughter and premeditated murder must be the same too.

Not quite what's going on here. A reasonable person should have known that science and medicine would do more to help a person than some supposed deity. The fact that the didn't realize this is what leads me to the hypothesis that they are criminally insane.

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Btw, didn't Dr. Spock admit he helped raise a generation of brats, although he had the best of intentions? Maybe we should stone him too.

Nothing wrong with raising brats, that just means they don't fit a certain social mold. Not raising your child to conform to outdated social norms and killing it are two entirely different things.

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Funny, most of us here are getting ready to celebrate His direct intervention. That should be obvious to everyone.

You can celebrate whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's reasonable. But even then, there is a fundamental difference between believing in a singularity in which some deity did something at a specific point in time and the belief that some deity regularly undermines physical reality of the universe.

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I remember being told, while watching a film on the Ethiopian famine, that that was the reason they couldn't "believe in the Christian God, when He allows that." I replied, "fine, there's no God. Now who do you blame?"

The same natural forces of nature which have guided our evolution for billions of years.

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It has been my experience that those who deny God's existence or involvement by asserting it rather than proving it, do so because of disappointment that He won't fit in their agendas.

One does not have to prove whether or not there is a deity, the fact that its followers have not been able to prove that it is absolutely necessary is enough to dismiss it using occam's razor.

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I'd love to know what you are going to be with all those parents who overdrugged their kids on ritalin, it being only a matter of time until that medical wonder comes to a head.

And what peer reviewed research do you have to back up that assertion?

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Or perhaps God is more consistent than you.

Perhaps...though unlikely.

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Btw, your sig: Lao Tzu obviously didn't read "Lord of the Flies."

Given Lao Tzu and William Golding, I think I'll take the former as the greater philosopher.

Not quite what's going on here. A reasonable person should have known that science and medicine would do more to help a person than some supposed deity. The fact that the didn't realize this is what leads me to the hypothesis that they are criminally insane.

I remember there being a CS case of a boy dying from Crohn's disease, and the CS were pointing out, correctly, that the child star Heather O'Rourke had just died from the exact same disease, after receiving treatment from the best medical science could offer. Same result. So why aren't Heather's parents criminally insane?

Btw, her co-star Dominique Dunne (near whom O'Rourke is buried) had already been strangled by her boyfriend, because she left him. He was convicted for manslaughter and served less than 4 years. I guess it's just the same as our CS parents.

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Nothing wrong with raising brats, that just means they don't fit a certain social mold. Not raising your child to conform to outdated social norms and killing it are two entirely different things.

Oh? I just spent Friday in a gun scare at school (High School). Not raising your child to conform to tried and true social norms and killing are exactly the same thing.

I work every day with Dr. Spock's progeny. Do you have any contact with children?

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You can celebrate whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's reasonable. But even then, there is a fundamental difference between believing in a singularity in which some deity did something at a specific point in time and the belief that some deity regularly undermines physical reality of the universe.

Just pointing out the obvious of what forum you are posting. If you want to talk about how insane we are in believing in God, start a thread.

Btw, the need for the invention of the idea of Punctuated Equalibrium would show the universe, or rather science's explanation of it, is less consistent than you would like.

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The same natural forces of nature which have guided our evolution for billions of years.

Like entropy resulting in order.

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One does not have to prove whether or not there is a deity, the fact that its followers have not been able to prove that it is absolutely necessary is enough to dismiss it using occam's razor.

That razor is dulled when shaving the obstinate.

And, as scientists are loathe to admit, Isaac Newton would seriously contend with you on that: he saw his scientific work as a by product of his religious studies (which is the bulk of his life's work, though relegated into obscurity by those who build modern science on his work).

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And what peer reviewed research do you have to back up that assertion?

Having worked at a psych hospital I 1) don't need a peer reviewed journal to tell me what I see, 2) saw enough to be leery of the "peers."

That being said, one study I saw showed that the prescription for ritilin corelated better with zip codes than with symptoms. Zip codes, btw, tell you something about affluence and the ability to pay for medications.

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Perhaps...though unlikely.

Modest as always.

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Given Lao Tzu and William Golding, I think I'll take the former as the greater philosopher.

I thought you were the great empirisist. Any observations to back you up?

That being said, Lao Tzu (or at least the Tao Te Ching) has a lot more to say. I will note, that it was written while he was fleeing from society.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I remember there being a CS case of a boy dying from Crohn's disease, and the CS were pointing out, correctly, that the child star Heather O'Rourke had just died from the exact same disease, after receiving treatment from the best medical science could offer. Same result. So why aren't Heather's parents criminally insane?

Since it is a genetic disease currently without a cure, there is no fool proof way of dealing with Crohn's disease. However, certain treatements (i.e. medication and, at times, surgery) have been proven to have a higher probability of success than others (i.e. prayer). The responsible act is to engage in the treatment with the higher probability of success and failure to do so does constitute neglect.

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Btw, her co-star Dominique Dunne (near whom O'Rourke is buried) had already been strangled by her boyfriend, because she left him. He was convicted for manslaughter and served less than 4 years. I guess it's just the same as our CS parents.

I don't know the specifics of the case, but if it is as you say it seems to demonstrate a failure in our judicial system, these unfortunately happen from time to time, it doesn't mean that we should make them precedent.

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Oh? I just spent Friday in a gun scare at school (High School). Not raising your child to conform to tried and true social norms and killing are exactly the same thing.

Is this the failure of parents or perhaps the failure of some of our social norms? I would expand but it would probably drive the discussion into politics.

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I work every day with Dr. Spock's progeny. Do you have any contact with children?

Fortunately not every day, but enough to know that there arn't many children I like putting up with, regardless of upbringing.

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Just pointing out the obvious of what forum you are posting. If you want to talk about how insane we are in believing in God, start a thread.

Why do you think I started this thread? And the point isn't that believing in god is insane, it's not, the point is that spurning science inorder to hope for miracles is insane.

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Btw, the need for the invention of the idea of Punctuated Equalibrium would show the universe, or rather science's explanation of it, is less consistent than you would like.

If you include probability mechanics in your explination everything is perfectly logical and consistent.

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Like entropy resulting in order.

Locally, yes...hardly a contradiction to anything.

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And, as scientists are loathe to admit, Isaac Newton would seriously contend with you on that: he saw his scientific work as a by product of his religious studies (which is the bulk of his life's work, though relegated into obscurity by those who build modern science on his work).

And there are a plethora of other problems with Newton's work as demonstrated by the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. He had some good points but was dead wrong, or at least inaccurate, on others. His faith, which is expected of a seventeenth century academic, is ignored for the simple reason that, regardless of what he may have thought, it's not significant.

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Having worked at a psych hospital I 1) don't need a peer reviewed journal to tell me what I see, 2) saw enough to be leery of the "peers."

No peer reviewed research to back up you hunch, eh? You'll forive me for not taking it seriously then. Let me know when you get it published in one of the Nature Journals, then we can talk about your theories.

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That being said, one study I saw showed that the prescription for ritilin corelated better with zip codes than with symptoms. Zip codes, btw, tell you something about affluence and the ability to pay for medications.

And why is this significant to your theory about the effects of the medicine?

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Modest as always.

One must know their strengths and weaknesses.

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I thought you were the great empirisist. Any observations to back you up?

Judging the quality of philosophical works is often like judging the asthetic qualities of colours...it's generally a matter of personal preference. But with that said, I would argue that due to the scope alone the Tao Te Ching offers a greater degree of philosophical insight than Lord of the Flies, which was intended as a social commentary not a philosophical work.

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That being said, Lao Tzu (or at least the Tao Te Ching) has a lot more to say. I will note, that it was written while he was fleeing from society.

Since it is a genetic disease currently without a cure, there is no fool proof way of dealing with Crohn's disease. However, certain treatements (i.e. medication and, at times, surgery) have been proven to have a higher probability of success than others (i.e. prayer). The responsible act is to engage in the treatment with the higher probability of success and failure to do so does constitute neglect.

You threw intent out the window, saying the CS prayers were like a gun to the head, both ending in a dead child. Now you want to nit pick about treatment options and success.

I'll repeat a previous question: what about parents putting a child through endless experimental treatments, suffering, and dying. What then? Lock them up?

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I don't know the specifics of the case, but if it is as you say it seems to demonstrate a failure in our judicial system, these unfortunately happen from time to time, it doesn't mean that we should make them precedent.

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Is this the failure of parents or perhaps the failure of some of our social norms? I would expand but it would probably drive the discussion into politics.

Back to Dr. Spock: both of the above. That is, the revised social norms that Dr. Spock had inculcated into today's parents.

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Fortunately not every day, but enough to know that there arn't many children I like putting up with, regardless of upbringing.

Perhaps best for all concerned. I, on the other hand, like children.

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Why do you think I started this thread? And the point isn't that believing in god is insane, it's not, the point is that spurning science inorder to hope for miracles is insane.

I'm inclined to agree with the last point, but I also admit that it is my belief, and I don't take forcing it on others off the table.

If you include probability mechanics in your explination everything is perfectly logical and consistent.

Locally, yes...hardly a contradiction to anything.

And there are a plethora of other problems with Newton's work as demonstrated by the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. He had some good points but was dead wrong, or at least inaccurate, on others. His faith, which is expected of a seventeenth century academic, is ignored for the simple reason that, regardless of what he may have thought, it's not significant.

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No peer reviewed research to back up you hunch, eh? You'll forive me for not taking it seriously then. Let me know when you get it published in one of the Nature Journals, then we can talk about your theories.

No, I'd end up in a legal decision first. Much of what goes on is criminal.

As peer reviewed research, yes it's there. I just tend not to pay much attention to research that a) not in my main area of interest and b) just affirms what I already know from experience.

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And why is this significant to your theory about the effects of the medicine?

That the pharmacology is profit driven. The market place doesn't solve all problems, and it creates many.

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One must know their strengths and weaknesses.

Yes, one ought.

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Judging the quality of philosophical works is often like judging the asthetic qualities of colours...it's generally a matter of personal preference. But with that said, I would argue that due to the scope alone the Tao Te Ching offers a greater degree of philosophical insight than Lord of the Flies, which was intended as a social commentary not a philosophical work.

Much of Taoism (and Chinese religion/philosophy in general) is just social commentary.

Lord of the Flies responses to Rousseau's (Lao Tzu's kin) philosophical idea of the state of nature.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

These people, in all the examples given, are probably criminally insane. As much as I'd like to see them hanged they probably need to be confined to a psychiatric hospital for a long time, they clearly need medication and therapy and probably shouldn't be allowed to have children again.

Maybe they're insane, maybe they're not. I think certain religions and religious branches put the satanic dazzle over your eyes...like Wicca, Scientology, and whatever these parents were involved in. What better way for the Devil to moon God than by leading people astray towards something that looks like it is condoned by God? Why is it mankind has been so able to defeat disease? God designed it that way!! Medicine is like a chess game...there are rules to it, it has calculated moves to it. I believe God wants us to pray for His help, but prayer is not the only helping hand He put in the deck.

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*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator

Not every theist believes in a personal and involved deity. If there are deities of some sort I don't really think they intervene in the lives of men, they sit back and are uninvolved. The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

GIC and anyone else who cares to respond. I was always under the impression that a theist was someone who believed God was personal and involved! and a Deist is more in line with what you describe unless you add some crazy qualification. GIC do you believe that Christ was truly God and man?

GIC and anyone else who cares to respond. I was always under the impression that a theist was someone who believed God was personal and involved! and a Deist is more in line with what you describe unless you add some crazy qualification.

A theist is simply someone who believes in a deity of some sort...deism is a branch of theism.

GIC and anyone else who cares to respond. I was always under the impression that a theist was someone who believed God was personal and involved! and a Deist is more in line with what you describe unless you add some crazy qualification. GIC do you believe that Christ was truly God and man?

I'm not sure that all theists would agree that God (whatever "God" might mean to each individual) is personal and involved, but I could be wrong. In Christianity, we seem to believe that God is personal and involved, though I should imagine that the degree of expected involvment might vary from believer to believer. For myself, I would never consider waiting prayerfully with a sick child. I would thank God for modern medicene and take a child to see a doctor asap. I'm not saying that I don't believe in miracles, however, I'm not ever sure that I would consider myself worthy of receiving one. Having said that, I'm sure that God has worked some interesting things in my life, some things that defy explanation but wouldn't qualify as "miraculous". But again, I wonder what exactly is "miraculous"? Perhaps that's not the point, but resorting to prayer alone rather than prayer and action certainly isn't my way.

I must admit that I had thought that deism was more in keeping with what GIC described, but again I could be wrong.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 01:17:18 AM by Riddikulus »

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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Something very similar happened here with a little girl that passed away because her parents wouldn't give her insulin and just prayed instead. They were Christian Scientists. Needless to say the parents and the pastor went to prison. This was something that was ongoing for years with these parents. It was not an overnight event for them, they let their daughter suffer for years.

quite christianic. Letting someone suffer like that. I wonder why there isn't any law yet, that requires people to be checked psychiatrically, before they breed. Of course not everyone deserves that, but it would be good for the well being of the children, and hopefully for the future of mankind.

The logical progression of the world and the consistency of the laws of physics bear witness to this.

Perhaps it's senility setting in, but as I get older, I find less and less "logic" in the world, and we've only "progressed if you count technological advancement. In everything else, we seem to be devolving.

You find less. I find none. One of us is certainly right. I just hope it isn't me.

GIC and anyone else who cares to respond. I was always under the impression that a theist was someone who believed God was personal and involved! and a Deist is more in line with what you describe unless you add some crazy qualification. GIC do you believe that Christ was truly God and man?

I'm not sure that all theists would agree that God (whatever "God" might mean to each individual) is personal and involved, but I could be wrong. In Christianity, we seem to believe that God is personal and involved, though I should imagine that the degree of expected involvment might vary from believer to believer. For myself, I would never consider waiting prayerfully with a sick child. I would thank God for modern medicene and take a child to see a doctor asap. I'm not saying that I don't believe in miracles, however, I'm not ever sure that I would consider myself worthy of receiving one. Having said that, I'm sure that God has worked some interesting things in my life, some things that defy explanation but wouldn't qualify as "miraculous". But again, I wonder what exactly is "miraculous"? Perhaps that's not the point, but resorting to prayer alone rather than prayer and action certainly isn't my way.

I must admit that I had thought that deism was more in keeping with what GIC described, but again I could be wrong.

"I'm not saying that I don't believe in miracles, however, I'm not ever sure that I would consider myself worthy of receiving one."

I Always thought that myself. But think about it. God doesn't perform his miracles because we are worthy. He does because it's his nature. And he doesn't offer salvation because we deserve it. He does because he loves us.