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I wonder whether Games Workshop just gave up on ever finding a publisher willing to fully realise such a rich and maximalised universe.

They clearly are not interested in allowing for a strategy game that directly follows their tabletop rulesets because they fear it will take away sales from their physical products, which is a problem because setting a game in another context actually involves potentially even more work done by the developer to sort out what style the game will be, and its mechanics and story - which is why I think it has attracted some pretty generic shooters.

While Space Marine was a good game, it was very pared down, and even then doesn't seem to have been a great financial success. Perhaps it was around the cancelation of the first 40k MMO, the mediocre Space Hulk adaptation, and the lack of interest in another Space Marine sequel that made GW just say "fuck it", conceding that they will never attract a developer or publisher willing to invest in and work hard on something with a Mass Effect level of scope and memorability, and even the more polished games such as Dawn of War were always going to be fairly standard, with the licence acting simply as a skin on an otherwise solid game.

DoW 1 was a fairly RTS with a 40k skin but Relic tried really really hard with DoW 2. They absolutely nailed the look and aesthetic of the galaxy at war and it had a pretty cool single player game to boot. It just needed a larger scale, I think. Company of Heroes-sized armies would have been perfect, instead of the big focus on hero units.

My biggest problem-- and perhaps it was later addressed-- was that I hoped for a feel more like Company of Heroes, where counters were ruthlessly hard and tanks (and other late game units) were goddamn terrifying. Instead, in beta and at release, you could do stupid shit like claw a Predator down. It seems like they mitigated that somewhat later, but I still wanted a Predator to feel like, say, a Panzer IV, and I never felt like it did. Probably just a taste thing tho.

I kind of lament for this lack of a big budget 40k game because all I can think of are those panoramic preview images for Rome 2, only set in the Horus Heresy or something. I think a TW format for both Warhammer Fantasy and 40k would be amazing, though squad-based has its place too (and Chaos Gate was a great game for its time, although is very dated by now).

I don't get the hate for DOW2. The story was much better than Dark Crusade, IMO, especially in Chaos Rising. The smaller scale is really the only problem I see, and that didn't bug me that much. Balance was bad, but it's been more than fixed with the Elite mod for Retribution.

The game put a much greater focus on squad preservation and individual squad management/manipulation than on building a base and the like, which was great, because it meant you focused on combat very closely. DOW2 has the first firefights in most games within 2 minutes, and they'll run more or less constantly from that point on. To me, that perfectly captures the 40K universe.

Musical chairs with control points? I've never heard that accusation. I thought the fight over control points was a good thing -- it forces combat, it gives reasons to attack/defend, and it makes a battle meaningful even if no 100% unit kills are achieved. The types of point attacks vary -- do you attack their VP to get the upper hand there? Or go for Requisition to knock it down to +5 from +30, making repurchasing slain units harder? Or go for power, where you'll need specialized weapons (or just huge amounts of firepower) but cost them hundreds of Requisition and Power income, slowing down their tech and upgrading?

I get that the ebb and flow isn't for everyone, but the game eventually evolved around that, with abilities that keep you on the field balanced against those with high push-off potential. Tanks, weapon teams, and transports became that rock-hard center of your line, something with high damage that was relatively difficult to push off, allowing you greater stability. Meanwhile, walkers, jump troops, and heavy infantry are the heavy hitter, easy to over-extend but a great line-breaker to push your enemy off the point. Artillery draws the enemy, but is discouraged by setup times and consequent difficulty retreating easily. Without those points to fight over, what would you have done? Crushed their army and then immediately won the game by base-rushing? It'd turn into one of those games that's over in 10 minutes, but takes 45 minutes to play out.

The actual combat is interesting as hell, with a great deal of opportunity for tactical play. Proper use of scouting, abilities, globals, maneuvering, cover, and wargear choices are all critical to winning battles.

I just don't get how people are so down on DOW2's multiplayer. It's my favorite RTS multiplayer of all time. No 5-10 min of base-building and limited/no combat before the (often quite decisive) first engagement, no focus on "macro" nigh-automated resource gathering and build orders, just constant combat on an evolving battlefield.

This was why the meta favored (and still probably does) Eldar Warp Spider Exarch - he had a long range, low cooldown teleport and he could capture points.

Exarch is actually quite rare now. Farseer and Warlock are far better at winning fights, so they're generally better at actually bleeding the enemy. If I can decap a req point, it might cost you 100 requisition overall by the time you recap and re-mature it. To compare, that's 3 Guardian models, or less than 1 Tactical Marine model. Because they're better at scoring kills and/or preventing the enemy from scoring kills, the Warlock and Farseer became more popular. It eventually became clear that you were better off letting the WSE do his thing and cap up behind him with your free capping unit, while you held key points in force and/or hunted down his under-supported army with your army + commander. You'd get a lot more kills than he would, in the long run.

It's also funny that the WSE gets all the hate for this, but Sorceror, Ravener Alpha, and the Mekboy, despite having teleports of their own and better defensive capabilities that allow them to roam solo, never do. Edit 2: This is largely because, unlike the WSE, those commanders have abilities that are useful in main battles, and are thus less likely to be relegated to back-capping annoyances, but instead to travel with and support the core force. The WSE's back-capping capability is a compensation for his relatively small potential impact on main fights, not something that makes him superior.

Nowadays you don't see WSE much outside of team games, where he's mostly used for the cheesy Phase Shift + AoE attack combo. Some Eldar can still pull off the behind-the-lines capping, but it's done by making liberal use of the relatively easy-to-counter Webway Gates, and being able to engage your enemy in force when they try to push off your back-capping unit. That is, your army just becomes super-mobile but still capable of attacking in force, rather than dropping and running at every engagement.

Edit: If you want to watch some modern DOW2 casts, check out Indrid Casts. The announcer is pretty dry, but very good at explaining all the units (often necessary with Elite Mod's many changes) and catching most of the major action.

They clearly are not interested in allowing for a strategy game that directly follows their tabletop rulesets because they fear it will take away sales from their physical products

...and it would. However, what I'd ask is: Is that bad?

There's a lot of people like me who would love to see PnP RPGs and Strategy games in general take up the mantle of providing a robust, system-specific game that allows people to really mod in their own campaigns, units, etc. I'd very likely buy a WH40K turn-based implementation of their game rules - I liked DoW1, personally, but regretted that it didn't cleave to the rules more closely despite being a fantastic product in its own right.

However, I'm not going to spend $OneMeeeelionDollars to buy minis, paints and more. It's not happening. The RPG and Wargaming systems are lucky to get me to buy the books.

I draw a comparison to the recent Shadowrun game, which was enjoyable in its own right, but felt flat to me: I don't know that it cleaves very closely to the actual rules of the core PnP game. Consider the absence of turn-based Battletech video games: If ever there was a format that's been begging for a faithful electronic release, that's it. Where's mah turn-based? (Seriously, guys - I still play Alpha Centauri...) Consider that Magic: The Gathering has already started down this path (video games with electronic DLC cards, etc).

I think their concern is that people would stop buying minis. I'm sure many would. The problem is that they're starting to do this now, and the company has few viable routes to change this, because the expense to build, maintain and support a host of minis is astronomical, and all of this is on top of the logistics of transport and setup/playtime.

Edit: Like it or not, the game companies are going to have to modernize their product to remain relevant, in my opinion. The grognards are dying off or shipping out. A set of electronic play tools that implements the best features of social media along with the ability to set up and play in modular scenarios is going to go off like a rocket.

Let's consider Battletech, for a moment, since I'm more familiar with those tabletop rules. Something that allows a GM to define an M by N battlefield, then go in and edit terrain with a clickable/paintable surface, then set up the list of available units (including those things like Elementals and rifle troops) and insert their own customizable units, terrains, weapons, (effects like off-map artillery fire, strafing runs from aerotech, and so on) is what I mean.

RPGs haven't had as great a decline (yet) because they had a larger install base, but they will, in my estimation, suffer from much the same losses in the coming decade or two. Engineering a "2nd/3rd/3.5/4th/5th/Nth Edition D&D" electronic tabletop ruleset (with boolean 'optional' rules set for things like splatbooks or common house rules) integrated with social media (common tabletop, voice chat, dice rollers) would go a long way to keeping them relevant in the days to come.

OK so let me throw this out there based on what you said. I am not a WH 40k player but I have played years of PnP (D&D, Shadowrun, Battletech, D20, Paranoia, etc etc) games and decades of video games.

So if there are allot of people like you who would love to see PnP RPGs and Strategy games in general take up the mantle as you say of providing a robust, system specific games that allow players to mod their own campaigns why doesn't anyone step up to the plate and create such a setting for others to enjoy?

People have said in this thread that Games Workshop is dying/hurting and their business model is outdated.

I too would love to see a turn based/hex based Battletech game based on the original setting. Shit even a Civ style game or GalCiv style 4X game where you play one of the houses would be welcome at this point.

Anyway....so if there is so much appetite on behalf of customers to see something that allows you to customize a game to you hearts desire or for some open rule set...

so why not create something and let the community grow it?

To me it seems pretty simle.

Create a unique Sci-fi world setting and rule set both for role playing and for table-top (why does it have to be one or the other why not both?). This can be done via some sub-reddit and Reddit/gaming volunteers who would become the "core company" all working pro bono initially on the side doing what they can.

Base release of all content and/or expansion packs on an existing profitable business model (outside of tabletop/rpg) like League of Legends. Release a new hero/or new faction/expansion at regular intervals like RIOT games releases champions. For example if it was for a table top game (or rule set) with generals who command units, then release a new "general/champ", with backstay, lore, design, colors, whatever and rule set. Release this as a spec. Not a mini figure or anything tangible. Let the community release and create the physical implementations of this or once the company has resources then something physical would be released. Each character would command an army. At some point aft 2 years of regular releases you would have 100 generals to choose from each fighting over something, several belonging to maybe 3 or 4 factions. Generlas/Champions would be released on monthly or bi-monthly intervals or something along those lines.

Incorporate 3D printing technologies into the business model/business plan. Goal would be to release both pre-made-pre painted 3D figures for American audiences who don't want to paint anything or as toys and also license the guidelines for modders to create their own 3D models of heroes, generals, units (that adhere to a set of game rules). So they can create their own content outside of what the company releases. (every character that is fan made would still have to adhere to whatever rules governed the game and/or look/feel).

Allow all content whether pre-painted 3D models or 3D unpainted models or anything else that is created whether it be art or music to be sold via the company's website using standard 70%-30% Itunes model pricing. 70% goes to the creator, 30% goes to the company for licensing/platform etc.

License the IP to game companies so they can create games based on the IP. 1 stipulation/requirement for all licenses is that any game they make must be moddable (ala skyrim) so the community can make whatever they want with it. Mod tools would have to be released by the dev along side the game for every game based on the IP.

Allow people to submit fan content into cannon through some formal submission/process to expend the rule set/content/lore/setting.

Give people license to write books, stories, games, mods, whatever as long as they share in the 70/30 split with the company.

Let the community both dictate the direction of the content/game and its quality. Encourage emergent gameplay, emergent lore, emergent content. Basically provide the platform/first stage of the game/setting/lore/IP (intellectual property) and let the community grow it while the company retains the job of being the guardian of the "core" and releasing additional things in relation to that world.

Games like EVE Online prove that emergent gameplay works. Games like Rift, Guild Wars 2, Secret World shows that products can work as a Pay to Play model. Games like League of Legends prove that a F2P with a monthly release of new content and skins/cosmetics works. Dota 2 shows that profit sharing with the community works. Pokemon shows that card trading and incorporating a collectible element works. Flappy Bird (yes Flappy bird) shows that a simple idea without DLC, extra crap, that is accessible to everyone also works. Halo shows how stat tracking and matchaking can be done right. Warhammer/Star Wars/Star Trek/Marvel universe show how a compelling setting can last generations. Mass Effect/Harry Potter demonstrate that there is still space for a new idea/new IP/new worlds that people want to explore. Games like the Steam release of Shadowrun and many recent Kickstarter campaigns like Wasteland show that turn based RPGs are not dead and there is a desire and appetite for this type of product.

Allot of people who love this stuff always say they are waiting for something to drop. Well you guys are the experts on this stuff, what it should be. Why not start and put your heads together and create the world and the universe you always wanted the way you wanted it.

Break convention, break the meta, break the existing rules or combine them to bring something new and unique to the market place. It doesn't need to be a physical product right from the start. It could be 20 portraits of 20 champions that are drawn by some volunteer artist, and 20 back stories. It could start with someone designing a world and then 100 people refining the idea. It could be just art, and stories for a while until some license with an indie dev is secured or a card game can be released.

Given enough like minded people anything is possible. Lots and lots of us want to create something even if there is no money in it so that we have what we always wanted or so that we got something else to focus on besides the day job.

The only way I see it for anyone to succeed in any type of gaming, rpg, tabe-top, card game or collector space is to create a compelling world and to open it up for the internet/the world to grow it. Go the opposite direction then what the big power houses are doing. Go the open source Linux route or the 70-30% profit sharing route with an IP anyone can create for.

The goal is to provide a platform not a product and this is what you are saying when you say that there are allot of people who want a robust set of rules they can mod. These days people want choice and they want to be in control of what they do and what they choose to discard.

This I believe is the future. Emergent gameplay that embraces new technology driven by the customers/the community who do the R&D, control the quality and content. The company holding the IP acting as platform provider, and conduit between community and cannon.

Perfect example is threadless.com They sell t-shirts. The community designs the t-shirts (R&D) and the artists have produces some amazing designs. The community also votes and selects the T-Shirts that will make it to production (acting as quality control), and the company sells the t-shirts for $10 via online and retail.

its pretty simple really....plant the seed and let other fans such as yourself grow it into a tree.

TL;DR Lets create our own IP that embraces the future and the community.

The next big gaming/tabletop/RPG company is one that can embrace a threadless.com type of business model (where the community is the designer/Q/A and R&D) and incorporate some of the other technologies like 3d printing, and P2P or F2P models.

The thing with MWT is it's progressing horrendously slow in the hands of a developer that has clearly shown it can't handle the game it's trying to build. It's sad really, same story with mechwarrior online, both currently in development mech games are clearly being developed by people who are not up to the task.

MWT is also not full Battletech, and I believe there is no intention of making it full Battletech, it's just 4v4 lance combat.

I feel that translating their business into the natural digital equivalent model (selling minis as dlc) would be lambasted hard - which may be why they are concerned. It would require a commitment for them to support their product, and recognise digital sales across multiple incarnations of their game. I don't think a company like GW (or Wizards of the Coast, for example) could find a digital business model that allowed them to make enough to continue doing what they do without that level of monetisation, either.

I feel that the market for physical media will always be strong - it's a fun hobby, and a lot of people are okay with the prices. For every person who gives up due to the costs or effort involved, a new person starts playing/buying.

There are a few W40k mods for Fallout, but an actual game would be phenomenal. I've always thought that their ruleset had a very "video-gamey" feel to it (not in a bad way) and adapting it, concept-wise, seems like it wouldn't be so difficult.

Kinda like Shadowrun Returns, for example. A more fleshed-out version of that, set in the 40k universe, with co-op multiplayer and an open world... that would be incredible.

I'd recommend looking for a group via reddit or meetup, or local game store bulletin boards. There's nothing quite like tabletop roleplaying in the 40k universe if you're a fan. Aside from the core book I don't think there's a whole lot of other stuff you need to buy to play Dark Heresy - I think the corebook is around $40 but it's frequently on sale. There's also Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, but Dark Heresy is the inquisitor version.

I love 40k and have played the tabletop game for years. I've wanted a PC game with the tabletop rules for a long time. Other than my friends the people that play 40k cab be pretty insufferable. Especially at the GW stores.

A point could be made that they don't have said couple millions to spend. However, they don't even have to give out moneyz, just the license. Proper 40K RPG by Obsidian will kickstart itself in the matter of hours. I will personally pledge $50 at the very least.

Did you like Space Hulk? I thought it was just awful. Despite my wanting to see turn based implementations of tabletop rules, that just doesn't work for Space Hulk. Space Hulk isn't like the 40k tabletop game. It's meant to play more like a board game. Quick to set up and play. I thought the game was as much fun as playing a Sorry! video game.

Games Workshop is financially in a very bad spot at the moment. A small bit of history. GW was a fairly financially stable company up until it licensed the rights to create a line Lord of the Rings miniatures. The movies were a big hit, and so was the miniatures line. GW saw a surge in profits, they began to open a ton of stores around the world and invest heavily in multi-part plastic kit production. The trilogy wrapped up, and profits tanked. The LoTR miniature game although decently written did not turn into a sustainable long term product. As soon as the movies ended so did any enthusiasm for the products.

Unfortunately during the time LoTR ended, the other product lines began to seriously suffer. Warhammer Fantasy one of GW's key product lines had been suffering severe army imbalance. It was so bad gamers began to drop the system and sales of the once very popular game started to fall rapidly. An new rules edition was pushed out quickly in an attempt to rebalance the game but unfortunately it was very poorly received.

The final nail in the coffin was the Hobbit. GW expected another profit surge on the back of the next trilogy of movies. The Hobbit product line was a total flop, the LotR miniature game is all but dead, Warhammer Fantasy is on life support. The most successful parts of the company was and still is 40k, Black Library a series of 40k based books, and video game license royalties. Around this time GW started to license its IP to almost anyone. The result has been a flood of shovelware titles.

GW has also started releasing paid DLC for it's own tabletop games. Most of which is game breaking. It is all the same issues we see with DLC on major video game titles. GW has started cutting rules and models from its line of rulebooks and releasing those rules as paid DLC.

The company has recently hired an acquisitions and mergers expert, and a lot of veterans to the tabletop are starting to see the writing on the wall.

It's even worse than you're making it, really. Gamesworkshop has had a bunch of other flops which a lot of people don't even remember- collectable card games, specialist games (like the excellent (but expensive flop) Inquisitor tabletop game), a generally unsuccessful series of paper-and-pencil RPGs, mostly unpopular comics/graphic novels, and that awful Ultramarines film from 2010.

They're continually making the core games less fun for enthusiasts AND less accessible to new players, while pouring money into garbage which is both unappealing to enthusiasts and confusing for new players.

I have to wonder how many side projects they've poured money into which we haven't even seen. In the television world, it's said that for ever TV show on air, there's another five pilots the public never sees which failed to earn a full season. Not meaning to imply that GW is making a TV series or anything, but metaphorically speaking, I have to wonder how many "pilots" GW has spent money on that we don't even know about.

Yea I was just doing a quick summary. Like you say it is really much worse. They recently saw a nearly 25 percent drop in share price on one day.

The company is out of touch with the customers who are keeping it in business. The tabletop gaming space is no longer totally dominated by GW, they finally have serious competition. They lose more ground every year. If one of the big competitors released a solid product in the science fiction genre it could be GG for the company. That is not a healthy place to be.

Privateer Press makes an awesome steam punk themed game called Warmachine, with a companion game called Hordes. When you look at the decline in Warhammer Fantasy it really started to trend downward and is totally replaced by Warmachine and Hordes in recent years. The system supports both casual and extremely competitive gamers equally and has a very well balanced set of rules. The release cycle is a bit different from the GW and you usually have new miniatures with new rules every few months for the faction you play. Penny Arcade has run a few comics and talked about the game briefly on the site a few times. This game is the closest in feel to 40k and Fantasy as you will command an army of between 20-100 figures in an average game.

Malifaux created by Wyrd which is a small scale skirmish game set in a really strange fantasy meets wild west meets Tim Burton setting.

Infinity is a sci-fi skirmish game with some very interesting game mechanics. The game is very tactically challenging and fast paced.

Star Wars X-Wing, and Star Trek Attack Wing are 2 excellent games with great gameplay and obviously backed by some heavy hitting IP. Star Wars X-Wing is seeing an explosion of popularity at the moment. These are space "dogfight" games where you command a group of attack ships and battle it out with your opponent. If you have ever played Battlefleet Gothic it is similar. Fleet sizes are starting to increase in size and is nearing "army scale". The game is well supported by Fantasy Flight in both casual and competitive formats.

Mantic is trying to create some direct competition for GW in the form of Warpath and Kings of War. These are army scale games and is more or less a clone of GW's 40k and Fantasy properties.

Flames of War is an army scale game based on WW2. It is a mix of historical gaming and traditional wargaming. It is well supported in both casual and tournament settings.

Like I mentioned, I've been out of the tabletop scene for ages, haven't heard about Warmachine or Star Wars X-Wing, but from a brief search they look really interesting! Definitely going to check these two out, particularly if both of them are seeing a growth in popularity!

I do remember that actually. I anticipate this year will be different with the launch of D&D 5th Edition at Gencon, but you're right. I was just remembering years past where they often had quite fun booth activities.

Warhammer is certainly still the biggest or among the biggest, but in the wargaming genre WWII systems like Flames of War are really popular, and there have been a lot of good recent scifi/fantasy minis games like Warmachine. Not to mention the immensely popular kid and newbie friendly minis games like X Wing Miniatures and Star Trek Attack Wing.

Not sure about the rest of the world, but here in Australia (at least in Sydney), all the hobby centres laid off all their part-timers and now mostly operate with just 1 guy per store. They close for lunch every day and are now only open 5 or 6 days per week. I recently had a chat with a guy that runs one and he said he was taking a week of holidays and the store would be closed the whole time he was gone. I've only been into it for about 18 months and I can't believe how extreme their cost cutting has been. When I first started going into the stores, they were open 7 days a week with 2 or 3 staff on at all times.

The hobby centers have been pretty heavily cut down here in the US too. There are certainly still some successes, but for the most part, it's not nearly as strong as it was 10+ years ago. When I first got into WH40K around 1999 or 2000, there were about 25 stores within a 50 mile radius, and I wasn't in a major city. I was in the suburbs. Today I'm in a major city and my 50 mile radius has like 4 stores. Most are hole-in-the-wall spots with like 100 sqft of space and one guy working; usually the smallest possible space within a mall. As you say, yeah, weird hours.

Must depend on the area. In North Dakota, we have a hobby shop that just had to expand and nearly triple their gaming space due to how many people are joining the competitive scene for these games. This one focuses mostly on various card games and Warhammer, but another store just opened dealing in all the other strategy games, and both of them are constantly busy.

While I see my fair share of closing and run down hobby shops, I'm also seeing certain ones boom like you said. It's almost like a flip of the coin for who's going to grow and who's going to flop with these businesses. Aside from store owners that don't know jack about the products they sell. Those are pretty much guaranteed to flop.

In our economic climate, its not surprising. Its not necessarily a downturn with gaming, just a lot of people making a lot less money on average these days, and hobbies are the first thing to get cut from the budget.

I've not heard of the Imperial Knight until now, as I've been out of 40K for a while now. Just looked it up.

Jesus Christ indeed.

$140 for what can't be any more than about MAYBE $0.50 of plastic. Jesus. I knew that there had been insane price inflation, but nothing like this. I remember when squads were like $15-$20 rather than $40, but $140 for a single unit? Christ.

I'm not sure which pen and paper RPGs you're referring to as most of the Dark Heresy line is doing fairly well. Well enough to warrant spawning a number of niche spin-off titles as well as an upcoming second edition.

I guess the 3rd edition of the Warhammer rpg wasn't hugely popular, but FFG spun that down pretty quickly once it became obvious it wasn't going to be a profit turner. 2nd ed did well enough to warrant a crapload of supplement books however.

I think sadly the underlying problem is that they've always had a sytem of promoting game enthusiasts and designers to management positions that they're not necessarily qualified for. The best case scenario is that someone takes it over and keeps most of the staff, but directs their energies towards more profitable content.

They really aren't gamebreaking. Not to say they aren't cut from the codex. They released one for Tyranids like 2 weeks after the codex dropped that turned units from terrible to sub-par, but still should have been in the original dex. Now they are also WAY overpriced.

Still, this method is better than releasing the rules in 1 White Dwarf that once it's sold out you are SOL. Paid DLC is nothing new for GW products, and the current system is better than the last.

So far 2 dataslates. One makes Genestealers sort of not useable instead of totally not useable. That one also makes lictors still not scary.

The second one was released last weekend. It added swarm stuff that is okay if you don't mind taking a bunch of useless hormagaunts. Not sure what else is in it, and I definitely am not paying $15 for it.

Old Lictors, assaulting immediately after secret placement three turns in, weren't mandatory at all in the older editions. From the rules changes, you'd think that Cruddance and whoever wrote this one had a one too many Broadsides/Devastators munched on by a trio of the things.

I personally like their decision to focus on high-risk, high-reward play. Yeah, the whole "play like you got a pair" thing is childish and macho, but the general idea that miniatures combat should be risky and bold is appealing to me - especially in the context of Warhammer 40k, which is full of iconic "ballsy" quotes like

"These are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear"

and

"WAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!"

I can see why a critical unit like the Warcaster would get on the nerves of a Warhammer fan; instead of the game being about attrition and overall army strategy, victory becomes very dependent on single units acting according to specific tactics in a single turn. It's a big shift from 40k, but I like the additional feeling of risk and unpredictability it creates.

Plus, I don't think PP would completely rewrite 40k to make it a Warmachine clone. There'd probably be a spin-off compatible with the Warhordes rules, though.

I'd add that GW is also facing a future with 3D printers which in the next 5-10 years are going to destroy their profit margin. Players just aren't willing to pay GW's prices for models anymore. So other games that take advantage of the new technology and embrace it are likely to steal their market share.

Edit to clarify: GW has always had really expensive models compared to its competition, in part because they were the main game in town. Prices have only risen over the years because they were the main place to get them, but that's likely to change soon.

Drop the prices on your models and coordinate with LGSes in your sphere of influence to raise both tournament entry fees and prize support. Acknowledge to the player base that they can buy premade models or print their own. Instead of releasing one major "Codex" that covers an entire faction, release the core game rules as a free .PDF and cheap bound book, then have each individual unit type have its own, relatively cheap rules supplement. Use this to create more rock/paper/scissors style units whose effectiveness varies.

On top of that, aim for a diverse format that motivates players to switch armies. Streamline rules for faster play and switch to a best-of-3 model that lets players adapt their armies to each other between games (encouraging more diversified armies which in turn means you sell more mini-rulebooks while also making the game more interactive), much how Magic: the Gathering matches are currently structured.

It's doable, but it will require a priority shift. I'd like to think that it's more important for your company to survive a paradigm shift, at which point you can use the strength of the Warhammer 40000 IP to keep the dollars rolling in; Space Marine moved more than 1 million units--I have to imagine that the licensing on that IP has to be worth close to what the actual game is, if not more, in a year like 2011.

Then Imperial Knights happened. They released -one- model, with -two- variations of equipment, and demand we pay £25 for an entire codex/rulebook dedicated to it.... the fuck? It's bad enough paying £30 for an army, but £25 for one unit is utter bullshit. More so that they've got about four 'companion' books for the bloody thing.

It's the ultimate beginner's army, having only one unit (that is extremely powerful) means you can't really go wrong with army selection, and being such a huge model should make it easier for a beginner to paint.

It's a very worrying issue, because if Escalation and Knights become the norm then most existing armies are either obsolete or will require significant reworking, which is all money in GW's pocket. Fortunately for the time being they don't seem to be catching on round where I play.

You can field those things as a single army with one model? Seriously?
Sorry but that's... bizzare, and to me it beats the entire point of 40k being about squads and armies. Soon I expect it'll just be people stomping around in massive robots with infantry being made redundant.

Yeah that's the craziest idea of the lot, I think it shows that they have stopped even cursory attempts at balance.

If I turned up to play a Knights army with my "normal" army, I would lose, I just don't have enough stuff to bring down four or five Knights, half of the units in my army can't even theoretically hurt it.

And yet, if you told me today "Hey wanna play my Knight army next week?" I could probably bring a list that would table you in a couple of turns.

Out of curiosity - do you see the tabletop gaming business space (in general) as needing an (eventual) electronic conversion to keep it relevant to new players not already immersed in the tabletop genre? I look not just at tabletop gaming (warhammer, et al) but also at RPG table gaming like D&D and GURPS. I wonder if, over the next few decades, the eventual survivors are going to be those that put their current tabletop offerings into the electronic space the most successfully. (Social media, IM gaming, etc)

I see the older generation (people my approximate age) moving on and gaming less, and fewer people coming into the hobby to replace them, but I confess I haven't looked at business stats.

This is an interesting question. A few years back a company tried to introduce a tabletop game that relied heavily on a videogame backbone. You had a tabletop setup with terrain, and each player had an army of figures. Instead of rolling dice and measuring distances the "gameplay" happened in an iPad app. It reminded me of a GBA game called Advanced Wars, except you moved figures around on a tabletop. Anyway the game was a total flop. The figures looked good, and the gameplay was solid, however it never materialized as a viable product.

I play tabletop games for a reason. I like the social aspects, rolling dice, measuring distances, and I want to assemble my little army of figures. If I wanted to play a video game I would do just that. I feel like the traditional games space is filled with a lot of like minded people. We play traditional games to unplug.

I know the pen and paper RPG are starting to embrace digital publishing. However I have never seen someone rolling "digital dice" or playing the game inside an app. I believe 4th edition D&D was poorly received for this reason as they wanted to treat the experience to be more like a video game (namely WoW).

I don't know what the future brings. I still see a lot of new faces at the gamestore so I don't think the industry is in trouble. If anything the recent mainstream popularity of Geek culture has begun to drive interest to the industry. In a lot of ways we are beginning to mirror the Model Railroad hobby. It was an extremely popular past time many years ago, but has slowly begun to wane away. You rarely see newcomers to the hobby and it is mostly turning into a hobby for older gentleman who spent their youth in the hobby. I can see tabletop gaming taking the same slow path to obscurity.

This has all the hallmarks to me of a flop right here. I'm not talking about something that an iPad app would work for, frankly, though I may be underestimating mobile developers. I never heard of it, though. I don't own an iPad, so that may be moot, but there it is. PC Master Race, yadda yadda.

I play tabletop games for a reason. I like the social aspects, rolling dice, measuring distances, and I want to assemble my little army of figures. If I wanted to play a video game (...)

I must note here that when I say 'video game', I'm using the loosest definition of the word. This would be more akin to the 'Maptools' system, more of a toolbox for setting up and playing an existing tabletop/wargame system game than a "game" in its own right, though I'm dubious Maptools goes as far as I'd envision such a product needing to go. (Maptools is trying to be generic, a system-specific tool might not have such limitations.)

I'm not sure, frankly how well such a thing would sell (esp. given the things you note) but I can certainly see buying it for myself if it went on to implement Skype-like or Teamspeak-like voice over IP, etc. Many of the people I used to game with have long since moved away, and most of them gave up the hobby in frustration when trying to find a new group they could click with. An internet-based game table might have sold to our group, at least.

However I have never seen someone rolling "digital dice" or playing the game inside an app.

There was a demonstration of D&D on Microsoft's Surface system a few years ago - though that's far more "physical" than I had in mind and not practical for the average gamer, the basic analogous system is more or less what I had in mind.

I've played PnP RPGs via forum posting, for example, complete with randomized dice. The format is a little slow, but the narration/narrative is usually better to make up for it.

I believe 4th edition D&D was poorly received for this reason as they wanted to treat the experience to be more like a video game

Because it was. I don't want my PnP systems to change their mechanics. I like complex (if not downright complicated) mechanics and simulation, or I wouldn't play RPGs like D&D or GURPS. What I'm curious about is the need for the industry to implement their systems in an electronic format, not the 'knockoff' and 'based on' and 'similar to' and 'employs the IP of' games we see today.

I don't think the industry is in trouble

Nor do I, yet. I'm talking on the scale of 20 years, not 2 - and I'm not an expert in the business of gaming enough to be able to discuss it at anything other than an abstract level, I fear.

You rarely see newcomers to the hobby and it is mostly turning into a hobby for older gentleman who spent their youth in the hobby. I can see tabletop gaming taking the same slow path to obscurity.

This is what I'm speaking of. I'm curious if implementing those same game systems (systems, not games) in an electronic format could stave off or prevent this phenomenon, long term. I already buy much of my RPG purchases in digital format, for example. (Eclipse Phase and GURPS doing well here.)

There are some things that can never be replicated electronically. One being the physicality of having the models and painting them up. I have seen some seriously ridiculously wonderful pieces of art coming from the miniature painters. Here is my personally favorite:

I don't think that the tabletop industry is going anywhere, because face-to-face tabletop and Internet play attract different audiences.

In college, I was an officer for both the board gaming group and the video gaming group. They were different breeds of people. Granted, there's plenty of overlap, but in general, board gamers tend to be much more social and emotional people. Video gamers, on the other hand, tending toward being more introverted and analytical. I'm not making value judgments either way, but there is a definite divide. There will always be people who will prefer to sit in the same room with their real-life friends and play RPGs, and there will always be people who are more comfortable role-playing by interacting with a HUD in a room where they are physically alone.

I'm not making value judgments either way, but there is a definite divide.

Nor is it my intent to solicit such.

There will always be people who will prefer to sit in the same room with their real-life friends and play RPGs, and there will always be people who are more comfortable role-playing by interacting with a HUD in a room where they are physically alone.

As someone in the latter camp who has made a few valiant (and short-lived) forays into the former, I would be forced to agree. :)

I suspect I'm going to have to do some research on my own. Blindly hoping an industry figure might walk in and notice my conversation and provide some relevant facts and figures may not be the most efficient means to inform myself.

I concur that these attract different groups and have overlap, but I was curious if the whole pie has shrunk, or remained flat over the past.. oh, decade or so. To that end, I was curious if a company moving more strongly into the digital realm (not just in publishing rules, but entire product) might not fare better in the future, given current societal trends.

The community will keep alive good games. Look to Blood Bowl as an example. GW officially dropped support for it years ago, however it currently has a thriving community. Many companies have stepped up to create "Fantasy Football" teams to fill the niche that GW left. So yes as long as the community deems something worth saving it will live on.

3D printing is another interesting development. Right now a lot of model development is taking place digitally. Some companies are still sculpting actual models called "Greens" but for a lot of companies creating models in the digital space is faster. The technology is already here to print very detailed molds based on these digital renders. Once the technology catches up you could see companies switch to a digital publishing platform similar to eBooks. Download a model, select a paint scheme, and print it out at home or at a game store.

You will always have people that will scan and print their own copies of existing models or pirate the material outright. It happens today with recasts. I don't think the 3D printer will kill the hobby like a lot of people fear. Adaption is key to embracing it and thriving on the new technology. GW is doomed because they are so slow to adapt to new trends. This is a company that still believes the internet is a fad.

Very well put. I haven't played tabletop games in about a decade, but if it got to the point where I could take part in the manner you outlined then I could definitely see myself getting back into the hobby.

I really think 3D printing has the potential to spark a huge new wave of interest and creativity in tabletop gaming, it just needs to be handled responsibly by players and creators.

I do not follow the ins and outs of Games Worskshop as i stopped playing the tabletops back in the mid 90's but i buy every book that the Black Library releases and would hate if they stopped. You say that that they are still making money from the books so i assume (hope) that nothing will change even if another company buys them out.

I feel like the future for miniatures games peddlers in general is pretty bleak. You know why? 3D printing.

Right now, only enthusiasts have 3D printers, but you could say the same thing about pirating movies around 2003. Now most homes have the equipment required to download movies as a matter of course. Within another 10 years, I think that it's a reasonable assumption that at least 30% of homes will have some form of 3D printer--i.e., if you don't have one, you'll know someone who does.

At that point, the miniatures industry is exposed to piracy. Why should I spend $50 for a Dreadnought when I can fabricate my own in a couple of hours for less than $5? Worse, piracy is going to be unusually difficult to safeguard against in the miniatures arena because painting over what comes out of the box is part of the expected use of the item. Sure, newer miniatures will be released with whatever kind of anti-piracy measures GW can think of, but that doesn't change the fact that there are 30 years' worth of unsecured miniatures already out on the open market. Demanding sanctioned events only use secured minis is a big "fuck you" to the established market, and I don't see an easy way out.

Nexus wars sounds about right. There was also the line tower wars sub genre in which you built units but could only attack the opposing hq, and in order to stop them you had to spam towers everywhere.. ah happy days

I don't like how he dismissed so quickly Eternal Crusade. Sure, everyone has an opinion, but his has a great effect. That really quick mention that was mostly negative in a video that was generally negative could easily give the impression to skip Eternal Crusade for those unaware of it

Wow, Chaos Gate was an absolute blast from the past. I put way too many hours into that game as a kid. The music was phenomenal as well. It's a damn shame that it never got updated for modern computers.

I'm at a point where GW just keep leading me on and depressing me at the same time.

Some of the new plastic kits (Empire Karl Franz, Lizardmen Carnisaur, the new elves and dwarfs) are amazing, but most kits are ridiculously priced. The worst recent offender is the Dire Avenger squad. That kit went from $35 for 10 models to $35 for 5 models. Just because.

On the video game end, it's just one disastrous cash-in after another. Their precious (I'm being sincere) IP is handed out to everyone and their mother for a quick buck in hope of stopping the Lord of the Rings/Hobbit hemorrhage. Their go-to developer, Relic, is in license limbo after THQ's bankruptcy. The only promising thing they have is a Warhammer Fantasy game helmed by Creative Assembly.

The Dataslate just drove me out of the game. They are DLC's to the tabletop game's rule set. Now, here I am sitting with a bucket of Simple Green, stripping my old models and repainting them. Sure, I'll pick up a few setpieces model, but I'm out.

I was somewhat intrigued by Dark Millennium when it was announced. As TB said the game is now being developed into some kind of single player RPG. I have my doubts on whether that game actually sees the light of day.

it WAS being turned into a single player RPG, then THQ when kaput. Vigil was then closed, instead of being sold. Crytek then purchased the remnants of the studio, and hired everyone working there. Basically dumping anything and everything they were working on. This quote from the wiki page is probably the final nail in the coffin. (When crytek was asked why they didnt just buy up vigil when it was on the auction block)

Cevat Yerli ultimately decided not to because he felt that their current projects would not fit with the company's strategy.

Forgiving all the missteps they've made with LotR minis, and some of their more recent games (Which is really forgiving a lot), they still have given no thought to the probability that in the next ten years 3d printing is going to eat their lunch.

One of their few hopes would actually be to license some of their rules for electronic interpretation. Their age old thought of 'We'll lose mini sales!' is not a really solid argument especially now with the drop in those sales. They need to go for the sales of people who wouldn't buy the minis in any case. The people who would want to play but don't have the time to make it an entire hobby. The same people who buy products during a Steam Sale. People who wouldn't buy the items under any other circumstance.

People have been saying this for years and years, but they really need to invest in something that would actually succeed. Full realized turn based 40k/Fantasy Battle videogames, with accurate rules, using a similar business model to their current one (e.g. you buy the game, get two armies for free, can buy other armies DLC style, either in bulk or ala carte). Of course knowing GW they would price it ridiculously and it would fail, but if they priced is appropriately they would probably have a success on their hands. They could sell skins and stuff, have official tournaments, the whole shebang. Instead we get...........this.

I love your idea. I love it. I would buy the hell out of it... but I'm not sure that it would resonate on a larger scale. The problem with taking the Fantasy Battles concept digital is that it's basically a turn-based strategy game without the macro element. Even MOBA games have a macro focus, so I don't know how the "pick an army and go till you run out of units" system would work.

Mind you, if you have no vision of your opponents army choice beyond race... add in some fog of war... either way I'd buy it.

And Riot has shown that people will spend crazy money on skins...

The more I think about this idea the more I like it, and I liked it to start with. :)

I actually played Ground Control. Totally forgot about those games. It's a shame the rts market crashed so hard and the only player left is Blizzard.
I tried DoW 2 and while i recognise that it is a good game it just isn't made for me. I missed the base building from DoW too much to enjoy it.

Giving every random Joe indie dev the 40k license was a terrible idea. The relic games did well, and we're well made, but that wasn't good enough I guess, only now if this keeps going the 40k name is going to end up being associated with shitty games, ending the possibility of seeing any more actual big budget, quality 40k game.

The problem is GW is hemorrhaging it's user base. They are relying on alternative forms of income to tread water. Year after year, they have continually raised prices on their Citadel Miniatures, yet their revenue from them continues to stagnate . Profits were down last quarterly report. Keep in mind, that despite the economic downturn, there are some up and comer tabletop wargames that have grown quite a bit, showing that the industry as a whole is healthy. GW isn't the only kid on the block anymore.

Licensing was what was making big bucks for them when Relic was making games and pretty much the only place showing growth. Yes, their licensing income was down the last year, but there also weren't any big games released last year for their IPs.

We will still see big budget games coming out, there is at least 1 that I know of, Dark Heresy MMO. And there is a rumoured Total War: Warhammer Fantasy game. But who knows when either of them are coming out.

Raising their prices is part of the problem.
I like WHFB, I really do, but buying GW miniatures is out of the question because you're basically getting ripped off. They lower manufacturing costs but raise prices, it's ridiculous.

I would love to start up a fantasy army. Skaven models look amazing. Unfortunately, no one plays in my area, it's all 40k and Warmahordes, and yeah, buying and painting 200 little rats doesn't sound too appealing.

That said, I am looking to finally start Warmahordes. I bought the Warmachine rulebook and a Menoth starter set a little while ago, and frankly, I am sick of the shit GW has done to 40k. Superheavies are just not fun to play with, and now there's a whole army of them that any Imperial player is Best Buds with.

Well, MCs always existed in Warhammer 40k (well at least since Tyranids). Superheavies used to be Apocalypse only. They have a whole bunch of special rules and stupid weapons. D weapons. They completely ignore any saves. On AV14 vehicles that ignore all but Vehicle Explodes results on the damage chart. And can use the large blast marker. Or in the case of the entire army of them, they have a melee D weapon, and you can have 3-6 of them in your main army, but imperial armies can ally in 1-3.

With 3 super heavies at about 1200 points, you pretty much have to tailor your list to take them on. As a Tyranid player, I could only even attempt to kill them running full flyer spam. Theoretically 3 carnifex could kill them in CC, however those guys are all faster than carnifex.

With 3 super heavies at about 1200 points, you pretty much have to tailor your list to take them on.

Whaaat the hell. I didn't realize it had gotten that bad. I only played 40k for a brief period of time (6 months or so) and I played an all infantry IG drop army with flamers and melta guns before switching to WHFB, so I haven't really been following WH40k at all.

I want to build a Sisters army so badly, but I just can't justify it. Making just one unit is way more expensive that pretty much any other army. The "1-click" collection is $80. The basic size? 3 troops. You are required to buy 2 packs just to get up to a valid size.

Tactical Squad of Space Marines at the same size of troops? $40. Not only that, Sisters have zero options. Want a troop with a different weapon? Have to buy an entirely new model.

And they're all pewter, instead of the usual for every other army. I want to give you money, Games Workshop, I really, really do. Sisters are my favorite army. I love the lore and Immolator is my favorite tank in the game. But I'm not dropping hundreds of dollars on the absolute smallest army possible. I could get significantly more troops in pretty much any other army for the same price.

Which is the problem. Nobody can afford to play the game because they charge 50$ for an unpainted, unassembled plastic tank in a game where you probably need at least 4 more of those, they go out of their way to price gouge their consumers so much that nobody can stand to buy from them anymore, and then act like since they do make such precious little money from miniature sales that a digital table top game would kill them not realizing the number of people that are a fan of the game would skyrocket if they could get into it for 60 bucks. And then since they don't make any money from the figurines, but they did make money from the relic games they decided that clearly games are where the money is so let's make as many as we possible can with no thought of the quality of the products whatsoever.

Games workshop has one of the most souless, profit driven command of any company out there, but they are unique in that they also have absolutely no clue how to make money.

WHFB just kind of dropped off the face of the earth in the past like 2 years everywhere I have been. Just as I started to look into getting it, I noticed all the players disappeared. Not really sure why as I didn't pay too much attention to it earlier.

The ps3 game Kill Team captured a similar feeling to Last Stand, though it's much lower budget and isn't nearly as fun. I'd recommend it as a $10 download for a 40k fan who has a co-op friend to play it with.