cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory

No! There's too much of it in Germany for that to be the case.We've been round and round with the whole "randy Irish monks" bit. It's kind of a sore subject.....

Deja-vu all over again.

Hey, I've run into another case of this over in the dna-forums. Even though I've shown him that 35% of Norway (in the Norwegian DNA project) is R1b1b2 he is still talking about the Viking slave trade as a major reason.

His illustration is the current status of minority populations in South Carolina. His illustration brings a whole new set of fallacies but I won't go into modern politically sensitive subjects.

Come to think of it, this whole dna-forums conversation started up because he was criticizing you, Goldenhind, and I responded that I understood or supported your position or something of the like.

This is beginning to remind me of the world of politics. When someone disagrees, rather than arguing the point and logic, they just starting attacking assigned or suspected motivations in the other party. It usually takes a 2nd or 3rd layer of counter-points before the deterioration in the argument begins, but I think most observers see what is happening when a person runs out of logic or evidence.

P.S. RMS2, this guy was throwing dirt at the Normandy project too. Seems that you should have some more I1 and R1a1 in the Normandy project for the data to be valid.

sorry guys as you say i'm new my prevous studies were mainly from 'phisical anthropology' sites and forums which led me to give up. you should read some of their ideas for some light relief. maybe not on 2nd thoughts alot of it is just insulting i find this site educated and balanced as a whole and i get abit over enthuseasatic i'm only here to learn

cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory

No! There's too much of it in Germany for that to be the case.We've been round and round with the whole "randy Irish monks" bit. It's kind of a sore subject.....

Deja-vu all over again.

Hey, I've run into another case of this over in the dna-forums. Even though I've shown him that 35% of Norway (in the Norwegian DNA project) is R1b1b2 he is still talking about the Viking slave trade as a major reason.

His illustration is the current status of minority populations in South Carolina. His illustration brings a whole new set of fallacies but I won't go into modern politically sensitive subjects.

Come to think of it, this whole dna-forums conversation started up because he was criticizing you, Goldenhind, and I responded that I understood or supported your position or something of the like.

This is beginning to remind me of the world of politics. When someone disagrees, rather than arguing the point and logic, they just starting attacking assigned or suspected motivations in the other party. It usually takes a 2nd or 3rd layer of counter-points before the deterioration in the argument begins, but I think most observers see what is happening when a person runs out of logic or evidence.

P.S. RMS2, this guy was throwing dirt at the Normandy project too. Seems that you should have some more I1 and R1a1 in the Normandy project for the data to be valid.

That is precisely why I have given up with that forum, at least for the time being. I no longer care what these sort of people think.

A couple of days ago someone posted over on our Yahoo group that his father-in-law, surname Fritzler, kit 149869, recently got his L21+ result. Fritzler traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia, near the modern village of Kamenskiy (near the city of Saratov), among the "Volga German" settlers.

I have tried to get this first Fritzler to join the R-L21 Plus Project, but thus far he has not done so. However, I found another Fritzler in Ysearch, S3V62, who matches him exactly at 37 markers and who also traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia.

This second Fritzler (Ysearch S3V62) has joined the project and is currently awaiting L21 test results.

It would be very interesting to test some more males who trace their ancestry to the village of Grimm, Russia.

Fritzler, kit 116239, Ysearch S3V62, got his L21+ result last night.

Fritzler's only close match beyond 12 markers is the other Fritzler, kit 149869, mentioned above.

We have a new German R-L21: Thien, kit E12857. His ancestor came from Hopsten in Nordrhein-Westfalen. No Ysearch entry yet. That's our second with ancestry in Nordrhein-Westfalen in the last week or so.

The low frequency of L21 in Myres' German sample is perplexing to me, given the fact that we seem to have plenty of Germans (including current German citizens) in the R-L21 Plus Project.

Hey everyone, new to this forum. Found this thread after everyone was telling me that I am a Celt over at 23andme. They classified me as R1b1b2a1a2f*. My oldest paternal ancestor was Frederick Reith who was born in 1836 in Hannover.

Do any other groups have this amount of Drama? L-21 seems to be a difficult classification if you say you are of German ancestry, lol.

Funny thing is I don't really care whether I am a Celt or Germanic; there seems to be a blurred line in Caesar's Gallic Wars.

Plus, both Celts and Germanics have /red hair and a lot do blue/green eyes; seems like they share more in common than differences.

Hey everyone, new to this forum. Found this thread after everyone was telling me that I am a Celt over at 23andme. They classified me as R1b1b2a1a2f*. My oldest paternal ancestor was Frederick Reith who was born in 1836 in Hannover.

Do any other groups have this amount of Drama? L-21 seems to be a difficult classification if you say you are of German ancestry, lol.

Funny thing is I don't really care whether I am a Celt or Germanic; there seems to be a blurred line in Caesar's Gallic Wars.

Plus, both Celts and Germanics have /red hair and a lot do blue/green eyes; seems like they share more in common than differences.

Are you also a Family Tree DNA customer? If so, please join the R-L21 Plus Project.

Hey everyone, new to this forum. Found this thread after everyone was telling me that I am a Celt over at 23andme. They classified me as R1b1b2a1a2f*. My oldest paternal ancestor was Frederick Reith who was born in 1836 in Hannover.

Do any other groups have this amount of Drama? L-21 seems to be a difficult classification if you say you are of German ancestry, lol.

Funny thing is I don't really care whether I am a Celt or Germanic; there seems to be a blurred line in Caesar's Gallic Wars.

Plus, both Celts and Germanics have /red hair and a lot do blue/green eyes; seems like they share more in common than differences.

Welcome! As Rich said, it would be great if you were to test at FTDNA and join the project there. It is the most extensive database of L21+ men out there, in my opinion.

I think that the Romans were confused in many cases as to who was Celtic or Germanic. Like you say, they shared some physical similarities, one of which was the custom of drinking uncultured milk.

Place name studies (including geographical features like rivers) and archaeological discoveries both demonstrate that much of western Germany was Celtic at one time. It was pressure from the Romans that weakened the Celts in Germany and made them vulnerable to incursions of Germanics from the north and east.

Breaking the power of the Celts also removed them as a buffer for the Roman Empire.

I believe it was Gerhard Herm who said that the Germans are actually more Celtic than German.

Although I do think it is possible to generalize and call L21 a mostly Celtic marker, I also think it would be a mistake to take such generalizations too far and imagine that L21 always and everywhere was exclusively Celtic or even Celtic to begin with.

Although I do think it is possible to generalize and call L21 a mostly Celtic marker, I also think it would be a mistake to take such generalizations too far and imagine that L21 always and everywhere was exclusively Celtic or even Celtic to begin with.

Agreed. I think the not inconsiderable presence of L21 in Scandinavia has been there since the Nordic Bronze Age, and strongly suggests L21 was an elelment amongst the earliest Germanics.

Many people (referring to those at 23andme who told cwrigh28 he must be Celtic) like simplistic answers to complex issues.