I also agree that amount of DDOS wouldn't increase much from influx of new players. If anything, due to growth of the community, solutions around DDOS will be more available. Besides, as I've said before, the DDNet community is big enough to come up with solutions. Personally, I would host a server that's a little more tanky for the benefit of the community, but the servers I'm interested in are not affected.

Increase of new players should be prioritized, followed by monetization, which would give more resources to the community that needs solutions to problems. This is key to longevity of a game--flow of economy. Economy doesn't necessarily mean money, but usually plays a big part. Just look at the biggest games in the world throughout the gaming history and look at which games last the longest.

Pathos wrote:Increase of new players should be prioritized, followed by monetization, which would give more resources to the community that needs solutions to problems. This is key to longevity of a game--flow of economy. Economy doesn't necessarily mean money, but usually plays a big part. Just look at the biggest games in the world throughout the gaming history and look at which games last the longest.

Teeworlds is already one of the games which last the longest. Even though it is hard to compare a small open source game with WoW, Minecraft and all such "legendary" games, Teeworlds exists since about a decade and had in the most of its time an increasing number of players.

Teeworlds got "popular" first when GIGA TV - a German TV Channel - started its own community league system, the GIGA LIGA LIVE.
Suddenly thousands of players joined the servers and played on a custom gll-map. But like the whole Vanilla gameplay was and still is, they got bored pretty fast. (Same happened after the Steam release.) Since GIGA has mostly gaming and technic oriented people in its community - aka nerds - we luckly had a few people who invested their time into creating modifications. And these modifications are still the reason why Teeworlds is what it is.

Soon we saw the first races in the CTF-mode, later we played on the first DDrace-servers or iCTF on maps like pirates or lost. These mods kept people to play Teeworlds and also to invite their friends to join the game. Thus the amount of players could be increased over time even without a further big push from outside.

What has this to do with your quote? Well...teeworlds never worked with much money, marketing or things like that. It worked cause people invested their freetime in developing new mods, maps and basically new content to play. There is currently only one challenge where money really could change a thing: Better servers against DDoS. But even on this point it is questionable if this is possible to realize even with a bigger amount of money.

We need something else! The people who started playing about 8-10 years ago and made the first important steps are now mostly in an age of 20+. They are busy with their study, family, friends, job, etc. So we need new people, taking over their spot. Making new inventions, new creations. Giving us a new reason to play this game. If I take a look at Ninslash, it is amazing. It feels like a modern version of Teeworlds. It sadly won't have a chance inside of Teeworlds, cause it is just not technically compatible, but still it shows how new inventions and mods could bring new life into this game.

And that it is what we need: New gameplay possiblitys, new style of maps, new mods.

But sadly there are two reasons, why these things got lost the last years:
1. DDNet. DDNet has such a big role in Teeworlds that it makes it almost impossible to bring up a new server with a new modification.
2. Our society. Young people think that these things are natural and happen without them doing anything for this.

The second one can't be changed by us. But the first one could, if - and only if - DDNet/deen would be interested into it. But...they aren't and so DDNet is actually loosing many good mappers and creative heads.

hi_leute_gll wrote:Even though it is hard to compare a small open source game with WoW, Minecraft and all such "legendary" games, Teeworlds exists since about a decade and had in the most of its time an increasing number of players.

How do you measure that the number of players is increasing? I haven't noticed that in the last 5 years or so.

hi_leute_gll wrote:Teeworlds got "popular" first when GIGA TV - a German TV Channel - started its own community league system, the GIGA LIGA LIVE.
Suddenly thousands of players joined the servers and played on a custom gll-map. But like the whole Vanilla gameplay was and still is, they got bored pretty fast. (Same happened after the Steam release.) Since GIGA has mostly gaming and technic oriented people in its community - aka nerds - we luckly had a few people who invested their time into creating modifications. And these modifications are still the reason why Teeworlds is what it is.

Teeworlds is also a well-made open source game that runs well on free operating systems and old hardware, which is what attracted me and probably also others. I just saw Teewars 0.3 when it appeared in the Gentoo package repository in 2008. I never heard of GIGA TV, I just noticed that at some point more players appeared.

hi_leute_gll wrote:But sadly there are two reasons, why these things got lost the last years:
1. DDNet. DDNet has such a big role in Teeworlds that it makes it almost impossible to bring up a new server with a new modification.

I think I've heard the argument a few times that I single-handedly destroyed Teeworlds. I feel honored to see that people still remember it.

hi_leute_gll wrote:2. Our society. Young people think that these things are natural and happen without them doing anything for this.

The second one can't be changed by us.

Why not? Just this weekend I was at Jugend hackt Berlin as a mentor, helping young people make the world a better place on their own:

hi_leute_gll wrote:But the first one could, if - and only if - DDNet/deen would be interested into it. But...they aren't and so DDNet is actually loosing many good mappers and creative heads.

At least DDNet is totally open, source code as well as data. Do what you want with our data, run your own servers, improve on it. Of course much more could be done, but that's always work and time is rare. Specific suggestions would be more productive than complaining that nothing happens.

Monetization and massive player-growth might be worst ideas in this thread.
These aspects should never be our goal.

I'm aware, that this is a completely selfish point-of-view and the majority probably disagree with that. But for me, teeworlds ist mostly about this small-ish game atmosphere where everyone knows each other. It's just a nice and friendly feeling when you finish maps or do epic movements together.
Beside that, we already have a decent amount of players and can barely handle the amount right now.
I know, there might be many new options and voluntary helpers among the 5235 people from steam and other sources. But, there will most likely be the same amount (if not even more) problems.
We already overcame some crisis and I'm totally sure, ddnet (or at least ddrace itself) will not permanetly die with the current playerbase and community member we have.

No need at all to further expand or do any more steps to popularity or monetization.Now, I feel bad, that I didn't donated myself and write about this. But be sure, it's smth I'm definitely about to do in the future :)

hi_leute_gll wrote:Teeworlds is already one of the games which last the longest.

I should've mentioned activity and growth. It's past its peak.

deen wrote:

hi_leute_gll wrote:Even though it is hard to compare a small open source game with WoW, Minecraft and all such "legendary" games, Teeworlds exists since about a decade and had in the most of its time an increasing number of players.

How do you measure that the number of players is increasing? I haven't noticed that in the last 5 years or so.

I would like to know as well.

hi_leute_gll wrote:But like the whole Vanilla gameplay was and still is, they got bored pretty fast. (Same happened after the Steam release.)

Or people are getting older and have to start working. Also, vanilla only became stagnant because of the devs of teeworlds.com; there were no new contents or updates developed for vanilla. Here in DDNet, there's constantly new content and updates (you can look at update history of Teeworlds, where updates happened at a year-rate, whereas for DDNet, it's in months). There's a small flow of economy; funding the servers and the tournaments. What about tw.com? There is no-show by the devs, leaving bugs, suggestions/demands of the community behind.

hi_leute_gll wrote:1. DDNet. DDNet has such a big role in Teeworlds that it makes it almost impossible to bring up a new server with a new modification.

DDNet has saved Teeworlds that it makes it possible to bring up new servers with new modifications.

hi_leute_gll wrote:2. Our society. Young people think that these things are natural and happen without them doing anything for this.

Baseless claim--perhaps it's true, perhaps it's not, but I look at a recent example, Super Smash Brothers Melee in the United States. It died one year. Now, it's become bigger than ever, with biggest amount of prize pools reaching 10,000s US$.

hi_leute_gll, I find your arguments weak and you somehow find subjective, pessimistic views instead of an objective one to form your claims. I see nothing but positiveness in DDNet compared to Teeworlds. Just look at the activity on Aoe's YouTube channel.

For deen

deen wrote:I think I've heard the argument a few times that I single-handedly destroyed Teeworlds. I feel honored to see that people still remember it.

Well deen, I don't think you destroyed Teeworlds. I think you single-handedly saved Teeworlds and DDNet has become the gateway to Teeworlds. Hats off to you.

For Index

Index wrote:Monetization and massive player-growth might be worst ideas in this thread.
These aspects should never be our goal.

Maybe I'll cite something later about how monetization snowballs into benefits and further growth, but "massive player growth" is pretty much the topic of this thread and looking at the history of posts in teeworlds.com, there are so many posts regarding this topic. I'm sure you know this. The community demands this. This thread is a clear evidence.

Index wrote:But for me, teeworlds ist mostly about this small-ish game atmosphere where everyone knows each other. It's just a nice and friendly feeling when you finish maps or do epic movements together.

People will find clans and their own small communities and gaming partners and friends if they want. If they don't, they won't. Maybe you're privileged with nice and friendly feelings during your experience in DDNet, but you know that Teeworlds is not an exception in the gaming world. You can find these things in no matter what game you're playing.

Index, you don't want to continue with this discussion because you disagree with what the majority of the community (again, which you said in your post) demands and have demanded for such a long time. You don't have to. Just know that we appreciate your contributions.

I would like to mention again: DDNet has single-handedly saved Teeworlds and DDNet has become the gateway to Teeworlds. Teeworlds alone does not has a future, but DDNet does, thus Teeworlds. Teeworlds' fate is not shared with DDNet. You can tell by clicking on "active posts" in both forums, Aoe's active YouTube channel, public funding/donations for the servers, participation in prized and non-prized tournaments, daily changing (therefore new) content in the DDNet frontpage, map releases, etc.

Pathos you are writing so many wrong things based on imaginary arguments.

You say that the whole community wants growth based on a few posts in a forum with about 100 (if at all) active members, while the real community on the servers has thousands of players who aren't thinking about this topic at all.

You basically say there wouldn't be any Teeworlds without DDNet, but totally ignore that there were many active communities before DDNet and still people trying to create new modifications. But all these fail in getting attention...guess why...

You are talking about prized tournaments while there was just one single try (birthday tournament) to do these, which resulted in the first major DDoS-attacks.

You say I am subjective, cause I see mostly negative things and you are objective, cause you see "nothing but positiveness"? Dude, everything has positive and negative sides. Saying one has only positive things isn't objective aswell.

You are talking about deen who "single-handedly" saved Teeworlds? What is about the mappers? The other devs? People creating events? They did nothing to this?

You think growth is everything in the world, hmm? Growth always results in negative effects, you can't grow endless, without having bad influence on something else.
(Many problems in the world are based on uncareful growth, but well...won't describe this detailed now, or deen will post the next ridicolous link.)

Index doesn't want to continue, cause the arguments have all been said, but well...to know this you would need to read more than every 100th thread of the forum. This generally would help you very much.

This would also prevent you doing other dumb things, like fooling DoNe and changing the votes on the vanilla servers to non-working ones and replacing the maps with your bad one, cause you think running 3 servers with 0 players qualifies you to maintain servers.

You write the same non-sense on the Teeworlds-forums, where people already started to ignore you and don't answer your posts, cause it is in most cases for everyone too obvious, why they are just senseless. I saw often long posts by you, nobody cared about or just got destroyed with simple answers.
Ye, I know personal offendings won't bring this discussion further. But if half of it is based on wrong facts, cause a user has just no knowledge about what he is writting, it is needed to clear this up, so people who read this discussion know how serious they should take your "arguments".