Lance

doggone7

Can someone explain what a ‘not-for-profit’ entity’ is?

For example if a trust takes money, not-for-profit, yet the trustees get to drive around in fancy BMWs funded by the trust can it be described as ‘not-for-profit’? If the directors get paid heavy meeting fees and a director’s stipend can it be described as ‘not-for-profit’?

Ross12

Perhaps the Herald reporters should learn a bit from Cameron Slater’s partner who has gone out and talked to those involved in the charter schools –headmasters, teachers and pupils and reported her findings in a series of articles on W/O. She did not edit the comments, so as to present as an accurate picture as she could.

Old.Mickey.Blue.Eyes

“If you were a charter school operator, teacher or parent what confidence would you have that the Herald will report fairly on your school, when the reporter seems to have such a negative view of them.”

________________________________

Why should a charter school operator, teacher or parent be treated differently from the rest of us by the NZ Herald ? I cant imagine that the bullshit filter can be switched off in the editors office depending on the topic.

radvad

David, I have long felt you need to employ someone as an investigative reporter for your blog. This person would ask the questions that MSM do not want to ask or do not have the brains to think of them.
This would be an example. Ask the Herald to prove this assertion by its employee with names and figures and publish the questions and any response (or lack of) on your blog. If none are forthcoming then a challenge to apologise would be appropriate.
This sort of accountability might go some way to preventing public figures from making such blatantly biased and/or untrue statements.

emmess

Apart from the obvious political bias in that comment… it highlights the TRAP that twitter is for reporters. Your personal views just pop out and then the whole world sees you have a slant. Makes everything you subsequently write viewed as being slanted as well….

Why is our intrepid reporter not looking at this whole Charter Schools experiment and starting from a viewpoint of Why not try something different to help the students who make up the ongoing statistical failure tail we have observed for a couple of decades in our secondary school system…..ideological blinkers seem to exist on all sides of the political spectrum

Rightandleft

Burt,

For the last time the teacher unions are not members of and do not give any donations to the Labour Party or any other political party. The fact that a significant number of members vote for National would mean they’d be pretty upset at their dues going to Labour and that is just one reason why it doesn’t happen.

Secondly, the PPTA is losing out on money by refusing to cover charter schools. They are extra teaching positions being created, so their is zero monetary advantage to the unions to refuse their teachers as members.

Scrubone,

What does that even mean? How exactly are teachers gaining money by keeping students ignorant?

Spanishbride

After my Perception series on Charter schools where I visited Mt Hobson, South and West Auckland Middle schools I did an Investigation into Vanguard Military school. So far I have published two articles and have three more to come. In the first article I revealed that the NZ Herald left Vanguard Military school out of the NCEA results tables in their ‘ investigative ‘ article with the title, ‘Striding towards Success.’
Vanguard was the ONLY school omitted from the table.http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2015/05/charter-school-investigation-vanguard-military-school-part-one/

I was invited to visit these schools just as a number of reporters and politicians have been invited to visit. I asked the questions our readers asked me to ask as well as some of my own. My daughter asked the students the questions that she wanted to know the answers to and I simply reported back the results.

This Sat my article is what the teachers said in response to my questions and the next two Saturdays you will hear from the students. I have not editorialised or given my opinion in any of my articles as I have let the interviewed people speak for themselves. You the reader can draw your own conclusions.

My background is that I am an Ex-High School teacher. I have worked in Alternative education recently with students expelled from High Schools who have run out of options and I currently home school my 16 year old daughter.

mikemikemikemike

But what about her comment isn’t true? or am I missing something?

Your whole reason for supporting charter schools is because of your belief that the financial rewards provide the correct incentive to attract the best people to teach kids that you say the govt cannot do through normal means…..is it that unreasonable to suggest that they are making money off the vulnerable?

I make money off the fact that 90% of the world can’t do what I do, I take advantage of that by paying myself a princely sum for doing it for them whats wrong with admitting to that?

Ross12

mikemikemikemike

You are wrong , in my case at least. I support Charter Schools because they an honest attempt at helping those kids who are not succeeding in the mainstream school system.
The money aspect is irrelevant for me. It is the attempt to help kids that is important.

doggone7

Ross12 @ 1:09 pm: “…Charter Schools because they an honest attempt at helping those kids who are not succeeding in the mainstream school system. The money aspect is irrelevant for me. It is the attempt to help kids that is important.”

No argument. Question: Do ordinary schools every day do exactly the same thing?
(Our local co-ed lower decile high school deals with kids on a day to day basis who come from diabolical situations who are having trouble succeeding with their schooling. I believe the staff are making an honest effort to help those children.)

Ross12

mikemikemikemike

I’m not a teacher nor am I involved in any way with charter schools nor ACT for that matter.
What I meant by the money aspect being irrelevant to me was –if the school happens to make a profit I do not care about that.

doggone7

You are right that most schools try their best to do this. But for whatever reason it is not working for the( approx.) lower 20%.
I know some schools have the resources to take struggling kids out of the normal classroom to give extra support for part of the day and there are people used as teacher aids etc.(but they are often untrained teachers)

So yes, many people are trying their best and I just see charter schools as another way of helping these kids succeed better at school.

Rightandleft

The whole idea that charter schools are needed to help those kids failing in the state system is incorrect. It ignores that we already have alternative schools and special character schools in the state system and it would have been easier to increase their funding or numbers than to open charter schools. The only reason to go for the charter model is to undermine the collective agreements teachers have and to bring in all the policies like performance pay and bulk funding that some ideologues want so desperately, but without needing to battle the unions to put them in existing state schools. It’s also well worth noting that state schools have been making consistent and impressive improvements in academic results for students at all levels and of all ethnic groups.

From the politicians’ point of view charter schools have nothing to do with helping under-achieving kids and everything to do with ideological experimentation. The fact that there are some students failing in state schools (and the numbers are nowhere near the completely made-up 20% figure) means there is more need to intervene on a family level and at much younger ages as that is where the biggest differences can be made.

notrotsky

Bill Courtney

Fact Checker: “As far as I know every charter school operator in NZ is a not-for-profit entity”

Wrong. The Vanguard Military School is operated by the Advance Training Centres Group. The original sponsor was one of their companies, called “Advanced Training Centres Ltd”, Company no. 1060844.

Ironically, they appear to have requested a change of Sponsor for some reason last year. As the Ministry has not republished any of the modified charter school contracts, we cannot confirm exactly who the new Sponsor really is. But it will be part of the ATC Group, in some form or other.

I won’t comment on the hilarious suggestion that the stories on WO are supposedly “journalism”. Normally such pieces have the phrase “Advertorial” clearly marked across the top of the article.

Joe

Well if a reporter can see a man in a dress, and decide that he is a woman, and support him in his delusion, then what we have is a reporter who does not care about the truth. When I read the herald it is obvious that to them truth is subservient to political correctness and pushing their agenda. This is a doctrine of liberalism, all truth is relative. And these guys style themselves as the protectors of free speech, what a laugh. Call me old fashioned but if they can’t tell the truth, then who needs them.

Sonny Blount

mikemikemikemike (367 comments) says:
June 3rd, 2015 at 12:57 pm
But what about her comment isn’t true? or am I missing something?

Your whole reason for supporting charter schools is because of your belief that the financial rewards provide the correct incentive to attract the best people to teach kids that you say the govt cannot do through normal means…..is it that unreasonable to suggest that they are making money off the vulnerable?

I make money off the fact that 90% of the world can’t do what I do, I take advantage of that by paying myself a princely sum for doing it for them whats wrong with admitting to that?

Freedom of choice works because of the knowledge problem much more so than because of incentives.

Spanishbride

‘I won’t comment on the hilarious suggestion that the stories on WO are supposedly “journalism”. Normally such pieces have the phrase “Advertorial” clearly marked across the top of the article.’

My response to Bill Courtney who mocks my articles as not being journalism is that I have to agree with him.

My work is not journalism because firstly I was not paid to write them.
Secondly I have no editor to tell me how to write them.
Thirdly I present facts not opinion ( apart from the opinion of the person being interviewed )

As for the accusation that my articles are advertorial all I can say is that if the facts about funding and results make the school look good I cannot help that.Facts are facts. If what the person interviewed says sounds good to readers then that is out of my control.

As for the angst about them being run like a business here are some FACTS about Vanguard Military school. Unlike a State School they provide the following…

1) FREE breakfasts
2) FREE uniforms
3) They pay all exam fees.
4) They pay travel costs for students who have to travel a long way to get there ( which is most of them )

Also unlike Private schools that often like to cherry pick their students to ensure they get good NCEA results Vanguard accept students rejected by State schools ( expelled or suspended )

itstricky

A bloke named jonar pointed out that, although the return was 100% for Asian students (measured against the national avg of 85%) there were only 2 Asian students in the entire school. So strike 1 for deceiving statistics and makes you wonder where the rest of the deception is. Perhaps that is why they were excluded, for starters.

Also getting slightly spooky that both you/WO and DPF find it necessary to do regular propping up of Vangaurd. This is the future of education? Puff pieces on political blogs?

Surely Knott

As opposed to the more insidious political methods of the left – starting charitable trusts whose staff go into schools teaching kids, and offering schools funding and resources all aligned with the left’s latest environmental political campaign. Who else sat through the maui dolphin anti-capitalist school plays this term.. Get off your moral high horse itstricky. When my kids get home I teach them about democracy and independent thought and the meaning of astroturfing .

itstricky

{A}. So you are acknowledging that Vanguard are using insidious methods?
{B} Environmentalism is only the domain of the left?
{C} You make teaching of care for the environment (and dolphins) like some sort of disease. Ohhhhhhhh the humanity,……..imagine them teaching those poor kids about looking after plants and animals….mmSsssspppppppppppaaaaaaaarreee us all we’re all going to dieeeeeeeeeeeeeee
{D}. You seem to have missed mentioning free breakfasts and Asian students

doggone7

Ross12 @ 1:46 pm “…But for whatever reason it is not working for the( approx.) lower 20%…”

Interesting figure. The Ministry of Education has the aim of 85% of 18 year olds achieving NCEA Level 2. What does it say If their goal is to have 15% not achieve at that level? When we went to school 50% passed at that level.

“I know some schools have the resources to take struggling kids out of the normal classroom to give extra support for part of the day and there are people used as teacher aids etc.”

I know of a school that does that and has achieved such success that it has become a “magnet school.” It attracts children from all over the area who have all sorts of learning difficulties. Some of those have foetal alcohol spectrum disorder problems (made prominent lately by the Teina Pora case) and given the best efforts in the world are unlikely to achieve well against the National Standards. The school’s results are destined to be lower than if there were an”ordinary” cohort of kids.

The data showing the effectiveness of their programmes attracted extra funding to employ more staff. On the continued success they were told they were doing so well they would be able to continue by themselves. That meant applying to Pub Charities and the like to keep employing the trained successful tutors. Of course they could have kept doing by taking resources off the ordinary kids and the talented and gifted kids. That is the sort of thing that gets dedicated teachers pissed off when it is said schools are failing the low achievers.

Surely Knott

@its tricky. . Nope I’m happy for my kids to learn about all kinds of things including respecting the environment. I just don’t think educational funding and incentives should be influenced by politicians and their spin doctors or aligned with specific political agendas.

itstricky

I just don’t think educational funding and incentives should be influenced by politicians and their spin doctors or aligned with specific political agendas.

I guess you’d be completely against setting up entirely new schools, buildings, structures, paperwork, rerouting of educational funding and educations incentives all for the sake of hiring non-unionised teachers, then? After all, that is “aligned with a specific political agenda”

Incidentally – you knock me down by saying that I’m on a “high horse” but still haven’t managed to comment on free breakfasts or Asian students.

Surely Knott

I have no strong opinion on free breakfasts or asian students – that’s your line of discussion. Overall I’m happy with free choice and independent model of teaching and schools for those whom state schooling isn’t working or who would like a different choice. I don’t see how it’s much different to Catholic Schools but without the religion. Or mind plus for gifted kids. Or any other type of alternative programme. And if they are able to organise their budget to includes breakfast rock on – yum. My issue is that state schools are being inappropriately incentivised by organisations run by political loveys to persue a particular curriculum – and I think the politicians should stay out of the curriculum. Let teachers teach

doggone7

Surely Knott @ 9:40 am ‘… I think the politicians should stay out of the curriculum. Let teachers teach.’

Teachers are let teach – to what the politicians think.

If you have a child who is 8 years old and is below the National Standards, and behind his classmates, teachers will be trying to get him up to the standard. (Totally cynical interlude: Not for his good, but so he will not be a blip below the ‘supposed to be at’ line.)

It could be that his development, his ‘readiness’, is a bit behind. Suddenly things make sense when he is 10. Teachers can’t do nothing but also can’t be panicky. But they also are aware all of the time that he is ‘not up to standard’, as will his parents.
So there is panic and pressure. That is politician introduced so saying politicians should stay out of the curriculum is too late.

itstricky

So you don’t care if statistics are doctored to make charter schools look better?

Overall I’m happy with free choice and independent model of teaching and schools for those whom state schooling isn’t working or who would like a different choice.

Except that they aren’t. The same students studying the same curriculum with the same (note: non unionised) teachers sometimes sharing the same facilities as state schools. Where there are differentiators those could all exist happily in current state schools at half the cost.

My issue is that state schools are being inappropriately incentivised by organisations run by political loveys to persue a particular curriculum

I would call reinventing the wheel just so you could hire some non unionised teachers being inappropriately incentivised. I don’t think that is is true that state schools are at the mercy of lobby groups but, say it was, you think that private organisations are less suspect to lobbying and corruption somehow? I would say the reverse, if anything.

NZQA don’t seem to agree with the year 11 NCEA for 2009 -2013 showing no yet reaching 80% success in attaining NCEA1 qualification…and when you look a little further its obvious that it is Maori and Polynesian students doing the worst. And Boys are doing worst that girls….

So. Something isnt right. So why not choice? My son went to alternative integrated school. I dont see doggone or itstricky railing against them. So why all the angst about charter schools?

And doggone – I didn’t say all charter schools are set up to help the failing 20%. I said why not try them….

doggone7

On Nat radio this morning when they were talking about low maths results they mentioned in passing the kids in the lower socio-economic areas performing worst. In relating that to your comment “it’s obvious that it is Maori and Polynesian students doing the worst” and having ‘choice’ I’d ask, are kids in those areas comparatively under achieving because they don’t have choices?

itstricky

My son went to alternative integrated school. I dont see doggone or itstricky railing against them. So why all the angst about charter schools?

Because there is piles of choice already and your choice for your son is not a Government funded ideological experiment that is wasting piles of money that could be spent elsewhere to fudge some results to say it’s a good thing. Is that enough reason?

@itstricky. When vested interest groups squeal about more choice it means they don’t like anyone on their turf. Why don’t we observe for 5-10 years how the Charter Schools trials go before before branding them ideology experiments of no merit.

@doggone. So NZQA is not a valid source to support the statement that we have a 20% failure rate which seems to have been running for awhile. As for answering your question/s…. answer mine above, as itstricky has done, first and I might comment in return. You are simply baiting and switching to avoid answering my question…

Declaration – I’m not a teacher, the parent of currently secondary school aged child, I’m not involved with a teacher as a partner or member of immediate family, nor do I have ties to teahcers unions or associations .

Itstricky and doggone whats you links to the teaching sector which makes you so protective of it?

doggone7

Dave_1924 @ 7:06 pm

The only question I could find is, ‘Why all the angst about charter schools?’
Different individuals and groups obviously have different reasons for their ‘angst’, negative feelings, antipathy or reservations. What annoys me is the bullshit and misleading propaganda around charter schools, the reasons given as justification for their establishment and the capitalising on the half truths.

John Banks talked often about establishing a system which encouraged innovation and provided freedom and flexibilty to provide best for pupils. He raved about parental participation. He lied and misled about pupils attending one of the Northland charter schools.
Local community schools have become more and more controlled from Wellington which has made compliance paramount and restricted innovation, flexibilty and freedom. Banks’ attitude in extolling the virtues of charter schools was incompatible with what he was doing, not doing as Associate Minister.

If you read the link about the reporting of NCEA results you would realise the doubt around the 20% failure rate – the legend of 20% “leaving school unable to read and write.” But the question is who is not succeeding and why? As mentioned on this page already, by and large it’s in the lower socio-economic areas. Why? Is that unique? And what is to be done about that? The answer in NZ obviously is to set up another type of schooling. Give the poor people a choice. That of course is disingenuous. The schools are not necessarily for those failing at school. One of the schools this year takes year one kids. That school is so that the pupils can have schooling in their own cultural context. So it is just another private school.
I would have been less perturbed if there had been more honesty. Why was there not? There are other things like a Minister highlighting failure yet a local school with a highly successful programme losing funding while other institutions being given money to cater for the same sort of kids.

The notion of a declaration of interest is pathetic. I heard John Key disdainfully putting teachers down at some stage by saying they had a ‘vested interest’ in whatever the situation was. I suppose that meant they weren’t meant to have a view and if the did it had no validity. Of course he didn’t have a vested interest! (It could’ve even been Novopay.)

It didn’t occur that I was being protective of the teaching sector I thought I was questioning the tenets of changing the system and the politics and perceptions around that. Our kids attended three local schools so I took an interest and was invited onto a board sub committee of one for some years. One kid is still in the education system. My spouse works hard (and successfully) in a school so I am exposed to some of the bullshit that goes on in the system. (That prompts a lot of reading.) I obviously know some of the staff of that big institution.