Hi my doctor diagnosed me with cervical radiculopathy, also MRi's & Xrays showed c5-6 herniate disc w/ loss normal curve & consistant with muscle spasms through head neck & back. Also sinusitus & thyroid disorder. My head burns like crazy, I can't move properly & my muscles feel weak (I feel "stringy"). This is 31/2 years long, how do I get out of chronic pain already? I feel like I have every ailment in the book! Thanks!

Hello I too have the same problem as you do but I have several herniations in my cervical area, my C5-6 was the one I had surgery on. It was all due to a auto accident. I have been in Pm for 2 years now done the shots and they cause more problems than they did good, but mind you that was my experience not everyones. My dr is wondrful, she has me on Morphine 30mg at night and lortabs7.5mg 2 every 4-6 hrs as needed. The Morphine works in bursts so when it works its fine but when it dont oh man am I in trouble. Im only 45 and just won my SSD case a month ago it only took a year due to this problem. I worked up till almost 2 years ago till the pain became too much for me, and I was forced to take the pain meds more during the day. I was a school bus driver for a school district here in NYS and its not a good thing to take pain med and drive under any circumstances and worse driving children.
Sometimes I feel lost as I have driven professionally for 11 years and loved my job the kids were awsome and the district was great, now I just dont know what to do with my self my kids are grown and I cant lift, driving for long periods is out, I suppose I will figure it all out in time.

I too have been diagnosed with cervical radiopathy. I am fused from c3-c7. I also have buldging discs at c2-3 and c7-t1. I am also pretty new on this journey. I was referred to a physiatrist for pain management. I am scheduled to have my first cervical block injection this Thursday. I have 3 surgerys in the same location. Now I am being told that I have damaged nerve roots. I have been doing this craziness since 1999. I can only say you are not alone in your struggle. I am just hoping I find relief with the nerve block.

hi aro, and welcome/sorry you even have to be here. i am just wondering about your films(MRI and the x rays) and the dx? how long ago were those films actually done? was it the 3 1/2 years ago or more recent than that? the reason i am asking is "most' radiculopathic crap DOES tend to be pretty progressive and gets worse not usually better and over three years, you almost certainly would also have at least 'some' levels of changes that should be looked at again just getting a "contrasted" type of follow up/comparritive MRI this time. the contrast just helps better highlight problem areas and also shows the older vs newer findings much more clearly. i too have an absolute mess in my c spine with two surgeries(ACDF and then hardware placement) and another done on/inside my spinal cord that really did me in.

do you have a copy of that report from at least the initial MRI? was there any neural impingment or stenosis as well there or 'only' what you stated above? for your neck to be THAT locked up with muscle crap, you probably now at least do have some level of actual nerve issues too. but pain radiating from herniations can also be a generator too since tho the discs themselves do NOT actually have any real "nerve attachment" they most certainly DO contain pain fibers. and if the annular wall that keeps the "gel' that sits within each disc(nucleus propulsis) actually has broken and the inner meets the outter, that too can generate its own inflammatory type of pain. but you DO have 'something' that IS definitely sending out inflammatory signals to the outter fascia of the muscles up there. when signals radiate out from any type of inflammatory(pain)response, they hit the outter covering of the muscle group they innervate with like "distress' signals that just will first thin out that covering(fascia) surrounding the muscles(fascia is a very very thin but strong membrane), and then start clamping down tight around them. they will generally do what you are describing with spasms, pain, and with muscle you can get alot of 'burn' to add to the mix too. but fully definiing what you have going on NOW is what is really needed. esp if the symptoms you started out with over three years ago have just been getting worse over time not better.

but knowijng if you have tried any types of actual PT or injections or therepies of any kind would help to know too. your doc "should' have at least sent you for some PT when they found what they found. depending upon how severe the herniation was(some people can have herniations for years and they never have symptoms too) and any other findings that are actually generating numbness tingling or any other signs and just what IS really being impinged upon(can be nerves or even the spinal cord too) really is what dictates if surgical intervention was then needed or possibly needed now too. but helping you to try and reduce that pain and muscle issues should be what that docs job just was/is for YOU as his patient.

are you on or have you tried ANY types of the more commonly rxed for radicu type pain anti siezure meds? these really are kind of the 'go to" type of meds for radiculopathic pain. they help to calm inflammed nerves. anything you have tried so far would be good to know?

having that loss of lordodtic curve is actually a pretty common finding for some odd reason. i know many people in just my family and myself who have lost that too. it does tend to make you a bit more higher risk for 'slippage" of discs and also the vertebrae when the curve is gone too. the lordosis(curve) is supposed to naturally kind of spread out the wieght of our head on our spine out a bit more evenly so the verts do not go 'straight up" and kind of stack themselves up in there. without it, the wieght placement sits totally on top on down in our necks(much more compression). and like i mentioned, much more susceptable to 'slips" in just about any real direction, but more often, back towards the cords or forward more into the esophagus. any slip can be pretty small or much larger, it really depends upon any traumas suffered or MVAs or just what you 'do' for a job or sports that can just do about anything to our c spines over time esp. the older we get, the more likely we have some levels of 'problems' usually in the c spine or lumbar most often.

but if i were you and that MRI actually IS as old as the original dx, i definitely would ask your doc to do that "comparritive" contrasted MRI on you now. as i said, alot of changes can take place over time that you would feel as MORE strength in severity of original symptoms along with 'new' symptoms that you did not have over three years ago. are ANY of your arms/hands or fingers being affected in ANY way shape or form? if anything is now affecting down to the fingers, it just really ups that need to get that newer updated look in there now. marcia

It sounds like you have been dealing with this and are much more knowledgable about it than I am. I have been on the nerve medication for 2 years now and it doesn't seem to work. Have you had a spinal block and has it worked for you?

are you referring to me kitip? if ya are or are not, i will try and see if i can help anyways. first of all, how have they determined your nerve ROOT damage exactly? and that is kind of an important question. it usually is done with at the very least an EMG/NCV which does fully run thru all of your actual nerve flow vlocitys and also check muscle r4eactions too by virtue of stim and see how long your nerve signals take to get to the brainand back. this seriously would be one of the very best tests to check just how much basic nerve flow velocitys are at full capacitys and how many are either non existant or impaired too. THAT end result of that test would determine YOUR levels of nerve flow impairments the best.

luckily for you, if you have not yet had one, almost every physiatrist actually is the go to person for this particular type of testing too(EMG). i love my physiatrist. he does not do actual injections tho(my PM does that stuff), but was my hugely helpful rehab hosp doc i had while having to try and get my L leg and 8 fine motor muscles back in my L hand following my cord surgery to resect a 'glob' of congenitally(born with) formed blood vessels that i never ever knew i had til herniating my c 6-7 and it just 'glowed' in my cord area upon that needed MRI from within my L side, towards the back(posteriolateral L) and right AT that c 8 nerve level right below that herniation, but totally IN that stupid cord.

a physiatrist is mostly a hugely much more knowledgable physical medicine type doc, but with wayyy more overall experience in just exactly where every freakin nerve to every muscle just is and what it is supposed to do(and also appears to know much more just watching our gait as we walk/move at all, than ANY other type doc i had ever seen so far. and thats been ALOT since 03?). 'his' levels of overall hands on eval will also tell alot too. i see him whenever i have any insane mechanical issues either pop up or actually 'lose' something i DID once have instead of any neuro type doc. i am not sure if yours IS an actual PM doc or what? but i CAN tell you that 'most" physiatrists as like with rheumy docs too, just do NOT "like" to use(for chronic pain) narcotics. do NOT know why, but "most"(not all) are like that. they like to try more to try and stick to like what you are on with your anti S meds and other "types" too that are usually if not mostly all non narcotic. so i was sent in 04, just months after my cord surgery left me with two totally insane pain syndromes(among other 'types of crappy pain) to my current PM and i also DID most definitely need to up my narcotics that my NS had started me on, so they titrated up my OC and changed my BT med, and then also changed what had not been working for me either for the more insane crappy pain, neurontin(for 21/2 yrs and NO response even up to 3200mgs), over to gabitril, which is said to be a much more 'purer" form of GABA. still nothing even after that with ANY anti S med that has ever "touched/connected to my RSD pain in my knee or my 'central pain syndrome" either, both fired up from sp cord damage.

have you ever tried lyrica at all? that WAS one med that actually did connect to both of my insane pain syndromes, but unfortuently for all the 'really good' it it did, it also hit me like a ton of bricks with really impactful side effects including not EVEN being able to just walk a staight line down the middle of my flippin hallway without ALWAYS ending up veering to the L and into my wall. and some really sick 'up and down' double vision too among other things(have had side to side many times from alot of stuff, but NEVER ever had experienced actual up and down doubleing before that). so i had to go off. but alot of how that particular drug works on our cerebellum simply exascerbated the heck out of all the 'damage" to what is called the spinocerebellar tract(among 3 other spinal tracts in me) whcih CARRIES all signals back and forth TO that same cerebellum. so i had to go off. but this was only 'my' experience with this stuff. i DO know others whos radiculo types of symptoms it HAS actually helped too. any meds we take just kind of have to be tried by 'us' to even know what will connect with any of how our individual pain makeup will react to them too.

i have had MANY different types of blocks over the many years i have trying to manage my crap thru my PM. they are usually kind of a crapshoot as to what will or will not work mostly. alot too totally depends upon the specific types of block being given and where, whether or not the doc also usues flouroscopy to check very specific needle placement too. it realistically should ALWAYS be used with certain types of nerve blocks for best possible placement since these ARE pretty much 'blind procedures" otherwise.

just what specifically is he going to 'block' up there in you? is this a selective type nerve block where they choose a specific nerve they believe is one of your bigger generators up there or just an kind of 'widerspread" type of what an ESI does? some really DO help to keep the pain down at least for a while while otthers really do not 'change' much even ritght after the numbing agent wears off. like i said, crapshoot. but i DO feel they are always worth a shot just to see if they may work.

it is also NOT AT ALL unusual, mostly over a period of years, to have both the levels above and below to also have a problem, usually with some level of herniation. its just, esp in your long fusion case, all the 'normal' wieght just does get very displaced from normal with 'stacking' on top of it and generates it. i am dealing with the very same thing, among other crap here too in my c spine right now as well. but mine is such a freakin mess, even one of the tops here where i live will not touch my already highly unstable c spine with a ten foot pole, lovely. sooo, we just 'try' and suck up what we can as i watch my hands get even worse. i guess maybe when i just become paralyzed she 'may' take me on a little to late for any help? it just does suck, trust me i KNOW what you are dealing with too.

do you have ANY hardware up there with that long of a fusion? it can matter alot more if you do not(haveing that many fusions and no real outter stability?). then there would be some other 'lil tests' that can be done too to see how realistically 'stable' that whole area of your many fusions just are too. sometimes not all levels will even actually fuse themselves to both the upper and lower endplates at EACH of many levels that you have there too. that can generate movement upon certain nerves if everything up there just is not fully stable and staying in their own spaces. and if you DO just happen to also have any hardware and have had an MRI done, you already know just how horribly blurry all areas where that hardware simply 'is' can be too? i only have a plate and screws at my c 6-7 level when i only fused one endplate so we had to have that added and it looks like crap upon only MRI. but also including a good, and if possible contrasted CT to the mix too also will show those potential problem areas, with the boney parts more specifically using CT. i had a very different MRI only months before they decided to do just a CT on my c spine. that CT showed my screw tips from c 6 actually going sideways right thru the floor of my c 5 and that did NOT at all show up on my blurry MRI months before. i was blown away seeing that since on CT you can even see the screws down to actual threads IN the screws too. thats just how clearly CT sees harder objects.

just what specifically are they saying YOUR nerve damage is actually from? surgerys or something impinging upon them or possibly a bit of both? hopefully they did determine this thru the proper test for it with that EMG. if not, i would speak to that phys about doing one just to fully see what you have there now to deal with. what are YOUR specific symptoms right now? and what other if any meds are you actually taking to try and help with this pain? what IS your anti S med by the way? some you can go up on alot(mgs) some cannot. but there ARE many different ones out there too that just are a bit different than the other ones too that can actually work. its whatever actually connects with YOUR specific type of your pain process overall that makes that difference in which one is really right for you.

then it is also trying to treat what simply DOES also come for the ride with ANY levels of inflammation you may also have going on in that c spine that can seriously impact all the many many different muscle groups surrounding that c spine too. if not interveined upon(released), that muscle crap simply continues to generate or even 'hold' older types of trigger points that easily can still be there from even before ones c spine surgerys are done that have never BEEN released too. all old baggage and some new crap to have fun with as well.

pre op, did you ever actually have ANY areas that truely contacted your spinal cord to the point of showing symptoms of THAT level of involvement or strictly'herniations, stenosis bone spurring, the pretty standard stuff someone would need cleared out with ACDF? any actual canal stenosis? when was your very last MRI or CT done?

if you could answer some of the questions i asked it would help. good luck with that phys and the block which i hope does at least take 'some" edges off. marcia

are you referring to me kitip? if ya are or are not, i will try and see if i can help anyways. first of all, how have they determined your nerve ROOT damage exactly? and that is kind of an important question. it usually is done with at the very least an EMG/NCV which does fully run thru all of your actual nerve flow vlocitys and also check muscle r4eactions too by virtue of stim and see how long your nerve signals take to get to the brainand back. this seriously would be one of the very best tests to check just how much basic nerve flow velocitys are at full capacitys and how many are either non existant or impaired too. THAT end result of that test would determine YOUR levels of nerve flow impairments the best.

luckily for you, if you have not yet had one, almost every physiatrist actually is the go to person for this particular type of testing too(EMG). i love my physiatrist. he does not do actual injections tho(my PM does that stuff), but was my hugely helpful rehab hosp doc i had while having to try and get my L leg and 8 fine motor muscles back in my L hand following my cord surgery to resect a 'glob' of congenitally(born with) formed blood vessels that i never ever knew i had til herniating my c 6-7 and it just 'glowed' in my cord area upon that needed MRI from within my L side, towards the back(posteriolateral L) and right AT that c 8 nerve level right below that herniation, but totally IN that stupid cord.

a physiatrist is mostly a hugely much more knowledgable physical medicine type doc, but with wayyy more overall experience in just exactly where every freakin nerve to every muscle just is and what it is supposed to do(and also appears to know much more just watching our gait as we walk/move at all, than ANY other type doc i had ever seen so far. and thats been ALOT since 03?). 'his' levels of overall hands on eval will also tell alot too. i see him whenever i have any insane mechanical issues either pop up or actually 'lose' something i DID once have instead of any neuro type doc. i am not sure if yours IS an actual PM doc or what? but i CAN tell you that 'most" physiatrists as like with rheumy docs too, just do NOT "like" to use(for chronic pain) narcotics. do NOT know why, but "most"(not all) are like that. they like to try more to try and stick to like what you are on with your anti S meds and other "types" too that are usually if not mostly all non narcotic. so i was sent in 04, just months after my cord surgery left me with two totally insane pain syndromes(among other 'types of crappy pain) to my current PM and i also DID most definitely need to up my narcotics that my NS had started me on, so they titrated up my OC and changed my BT med, and then also changed what had not been working for me either for the more insane crappy pain, neurontin(for 21/2 yrs and NO response even up to 3200mgs), over to gabitril, which is said to be a much more 'purer" form of GABA. still nothing even after that with ANY anti S med that has ever "touched/connected to my RSD pain in my knee or my 'central pain syndrome" either, both fired up from sp cord damage.

have you ever tried lyrica at all? that WAS one med that actually did connect to both of my insane pain syndromes, but unfortuently for all the 'really good' it it did, it also hit me like a ton of bricks with really impactful side effects including not EVEN being able to just walk a staight line down the middle of my flippin hallway without ALWAYS ending up veering to the L and into my wall. and some really sick 'up and down' double vision too among other things(have had side to side many times from alot of stuff, but NEVER ever had experienced actual up and down doubleing before that). so i had to go off. but alot of how that particular drug works on our cerebellum simply exascerbated the heck out of all the 'damage" to what is called the spinocerebellar tract(among 3 other spinal tracts in me) whcih CARRIES all signals back and forth TO that same cerebellum. so i had to go off. but this was only 'my' experience with this stuff. i DO know others whos radiculo types of symptoms it HAS actually helped too. any meds we take just kind of have to be tried by 'us' to even know what will connect with any of how our individual pain makeup will react to them too.

i have had MANY different types of blocks over the many years i have trying to manage my crap thru my PM. they are usually kind of a crapshoot as to what will or will not work mostly. alot too totally depends upon the specific types of block being given and where, whether or not the doc also usues flouroscopy to check very specific needle placement too. it realistically should ALWAYS be used with certain types of nerve blocks for best possible placement since these ARE pretty much 'blind procedures" otherwise.

just what specifically is he going to 'block' up there in you? is this a selective type nerve block where they choose a specific nerve they believe is one of your bigger generators up there or just an kind of 'widerspread" type of what an ESI does? some really DO help to keep the pain down at least for a while while otthers really do not 'change' much even ritght after the numbing agent wears off. like i said, crapshoot. but i DO feel they are always worth a shot just to see if they may work.

it is also NOT AT ALL unusual, mostly over a period of years, to have both the levels above and below to also have a problem, usually with some level of herniation. its just, esp in your long fusion case, all the 'normal' wieght just does get very displaced from normal with 'stacking' on top of it and generates it. i am dealing with the very same thing, among other crap here too in my c spine right now as well. but mine is such a freakin mess, even one of the tops here where i live will not touch my already highly unstable c spine with a ten foot pole, lovely. sooo, we just 'try' and suck up what we can as i watch my hands get even worse. i guess maybe when i just become paralyzed she 'may' take me on a little to late for any help? it just does suck, trust me i KNOW what you are dealing with too.

do you have ANY hardware up there with that long of a fusion? it can matter alot more if you do not(haveing that many fusions and no real outter stability?). then there would be some other 'lil tests' that can be done too to see how realistically 'stable' that whole area of your many fusions just are too. sometimes not all levels will even actually fuse themselves to both the upper and lower endplates at EACH of many levels that you have there too. that can generate movement upon certain nerves if everything up there just is not fully stable and staying in their own spaces. and if you DO just happen to also have any hardware and have had an MRI done, you already know just how horribly blurry all areas where that hardware simply 'is' can be too? i only have a plate and screws at my c 6-7 level when i only fused one endplate so we had to have that added and it looks like crap upon only MRI. but also including a good, and if possible contrasted CT to the mix too also will show those potential problem areas, with the boney parts more specifically using CT. i had a very different MRI only months before they decided to do just a CT on my c spine. that CT showed my screw tips from c 6 actually going sideways right thru the floor of my c 5 and that did NOT at all show up on my blurry MRI months before. i was blown away seeing that since on CT you can even see the screws down to actual threads IN the screws too. thats just how clearly CT sees harder objects.

just what specifically are they saying YOUR nerve damage is actually from? surgerys or something impinging upon them or possibly a bit of both? hopefully they did determine this thru the proper test for it with that EMG. if not, i would speak to that phys about doing one just to fully see what you have there now to deal with. what are YOUR specific symptoms right now? and what other if any meds are you actually taking to try and help with this pain? what IS your anti S med by the way? some you can go up on alot(mgs) some cannot. but there ARE many different ones out there too that just are a bit different than the other ones too that can actually work. its whatever actually connects with YOUR specific type of your pain process overall that makes that difference in which one is really right for you.

then it is also trying to treat what simply DOES also come for the ride with ANY levels of inflammation you may also have going on in that c spine that can seriously impact all the many many different muscle groups surrounding that c spine too. if not interveined upon(released), that muscle crap simply continues to generate or even 'hold' older types of trigger points that easily can still be there from even before ones c spine surgerys are done that have never BEEN released too. all old baggage and some new crap to have fun with as well.

pre op, did you ever actually have ANY areas that truely contacted your spinal cord to the point of showing symptoms of THAT level of involvement or strictly'herniations, stenosis bone spurring, the pretty standard stuff someone would need cleared out with ACDF? any actual canal stenosis? when was your very last MRI or CT done?

if you could answer some of the questions i asked it would help. good luck with that phys and the block which i hope does at least take 'some" edges off. marcia

Yes feelbad I was asking you and thank you so much for all the information. This is what I know. My first fusion was done on c6-c7 with no hardward at all. Because of the location and no supporting structure for the fusion to grow onto it failed big time. I first presented to a second surgeon in 1999. They did an EMG which was normal. However the MRI of my cervical spine was so bad that the first time he saw me he was really angry about the MRI. Basically, the fusion at c6-c7 was about half way gone. Cord impingement was on c6-c7. Because I didn't go in earlier at this time I had heriated discs at c4,c5,c6,c7. I had several bone spurs and alot of bone particles in there.
This fusion lasted 4 years. I presented again in 2004 to my surgeon. Lots and lots of pain cervical spine, surrounding muscles. C6-c7 failed again impingement on same nerve c6-c7. Only this time c3-c4 herniated. All of the hardward had simpley failed. So he did a redo of all previous levels and added c3-4 with a cage. I have two cages in my neck one from c4 to c7 and another one at c3-4. The level they targeted was c5,c6,c7. They did a contrast CT scan on my spine prior to sending me to a physiatrist. He is the one that did the the steroid block in my spine this week. The way he explained this to me was because of the hardware placement he went under the c-7 metal and injected the medicine up into the spine. He did this by guided x-ray. My physiatrist told me that it would take at least 10 days to 2 2 weeks for relief. Thus far no help. I feel like I am in the dark here and after reading your information I have established a list of questions I am going to ask my surgeon about my spine. I have had pt and did massage therapy every week after my second surgery because my muscles were very angry. My surgeon told me flat out that he did not want to operate on my spine again unless absolutely necessary and he would only use my own hip bone to do the graft. He is the one that referred me to the physiatrist. I did ask the physiatrist what was going on with my spine and he said there were a lot of contributing factors. The buldging disc above, arthritis, scar tissue and possible impingement under the fusion at c6-c7. One thing that happened to me in the neurological exam that the physiatrist did, the strenght, gait, touch your nose tests ect, I could not touch my nose with either pointer finger with my eyes closed. Missed miserabley. Did not give me any information when I exclaimed I missed in a more than startled voice. His response was only a very quiet I know. Do you have any information on failing this test? Again, thank you, thank you and thank you I feel like I finally have someone who understands what I am going through.

wow, you HAVE been thru alot there in one c spine,and many times too. what specifically are they saying,and were saying previously just IS 'impinging' your nerve root at the c 6-7? the hardware or any 'uncleared stenosis that just IS the 'more usual' culprit that hits the nerve within that tiny foramen it runs out of? you mention that impingment there a few different times, but NOT what IS actually impinging it. it just sounded to me like this has been like an ongoing thing thru out even before your initial surgery on those levels? if that IS indeed the case, your initial surgeon should have also cleared that when he went in to do your ACDF.

just what exactly 'took away" your fusion?? i am a bit consufused there? did it simply kind of fall apart or deteriorate itself(leaving the fragments you mentioned) or what? how bad was your actual cord impingement and at what side? this IS a very important question that DOES relate to not being able to "find' your own nose with your finger to even touch it? that one inability is usually tied in some way to actual "spinocerebellar tract" damage, like i ended up with and mentioned above too? it simply does tend to sit very close to the outter cord wall but moreso in that" mid to posterior LEFT at around the 9-10;00 posistion if you think of the back of the spine as 12:00? we actually have like 20 some odd tracts all running thru our spinal cords that simply CAN, depending upon what is going on close to that cord, or even during a spinal surgery, can be "hit' or damaged to some degree. with whatever it was that actually 'fragmented' around in there too could have left some under that main ligmant as well that would have created the need for that surgeon to even have to under that highly protective of the cord ligament of flavum. you just DID have alot of seperate surgerys there and the hardware placements with alot of potential for damage to alot of areas too.

let me try and give you this explanation as easily and hopefully quickly as i can. what our actual cerebellums within our brains govern mostly is alot of what is called our 'proprioperception"? this IS our ability to simply always just 'know' where ALL of our body parts are in relation to space with our eyes closed. this also includes our arms/hands and legs/foot placement and finding facial structures too with our eyes shut. we also have many many different spinal tracts that run thru our cords that run to all of the 'high level' brain function areas too. like with that spinocerebellar tract, it runs to and from that cerebellum feeding it a constant flow of info on how our body parts just are always sitting, but does not "truely kick in" til our eyes simply close. this enables us to "do things' when in low lighting or like in the dark or even scracth our nose while we are trying to sleep. do you get me so far?

the very BEST examples of what IS governed by that cerebellum and that tract together would be when you watch a police officer run anyone thru all of those tests to check for whether or not they are drunk? alcohol nails that cerebellum too when we just drink alcohol, and alcohol is also a form of "anesthetic" as well. so the more we drink, the more that cerebellum kind of gets 'put to sleep' in certain ways, thus taking away the abilitys it has to govern very specific body "part"awareness too(the actual 'drunk" we start to feel as we continue to drink is actually part of our brains going to 'sleep" thus making us the way we are when drunk at all). they will watch how we walk, and also try and stay ON a line and walk but this with eyes open of course(which is also geared to balance) and even standing only on one leg with eyes shut too. how well we balance how easily we can find our nose with our eyes shut during most of these tests just becasue THAT IS what 'highlights/brings out" the cerebellums(again, the MAIN area affected by alcohol consumption) overall 'functions/jobs in THAT part of the brain. simply closing our eyes is what causes it to have to 'kick in" as soon as we close those eyelids and cannot see. this also will impact how well our eyes simply follow an object too, like the "pencil test"?

in myself because of my cerebellar tract damage, my balance has been goofy or unpredictable(i DO tend to always veer to the left when trying to walk a straight line), my vision is 'off' and affected in strange ways during neuro testing too(follow that pencil test?)when my eyes are closed to go to bed at night, i cannot, no matter how i try, manage to just 'know' where my dang legs are. i know 'only' where i left them. i either have to rub them against the sheets as a reference point or open my eyes to know, even if it is dark in my bedroom, just opening my eyes allows ME to finally just 'know' where my legs 'finally' are located down there. VERY insane let me tell ya.

i REALLY DO believe at some point along the way, depending upon just how 'fragmented i am assuming that bone graft was or whatever the 'fragments" were that were in there or the hardware or whatever was impacting your cord is what just 'may have' also impacted that cerebellar tract inside your cord as well. mine too, as i mentioned above took a huge hit during my surgery done on my spinal cord. it had to be first cut into, then gone thru along with two other tracts(spinothalamic, which runs to the thalamus). among other stuff the thalamus does like temp control, it also IS the holder/carrier of our pain pathways to our pain receptors too. my NS told me that from the day of my surgery i would always have 'deranged pain and pain signals'. and it IS highly deranged and bizarre now in alot of difierent ways. pretty sick actually. the third one that got hit but thankfully just kinda takes up space and not too impactful is called the cortico. it raised up my spasticity up more. i was already hyperreflexic from 'just' the cutting into my cord which generates upper motor neuron damage. you too 'could' also have this too if your cord was impacted in some direct way. all it is is a very overly brisk reaction to that area right under your kneecap being tapped with that lil hammer?

how WAS YOUR reaction to THAT test during the exam? did you have just a more normal subtle 'bounce out' or a much more kind of brisker/hyper pop out, on either leg? this test would show whether or not your actual cord was truely impacted. the abnormally 'brisker pop out' is what hyper reflexia is. i have this too. but in only my L leg, the other is totally normal. but my L side is really what took the bigger hits only becasue that glob of vessels was mostly on that side so that is what they had to go thru to get it out.

considering what you have had done up there i would find it hard to believe that your surgeons, esp when they could actually see the fragmenting occuring in there, wouldn't have used what is called 'intraoperative monitoring" during that surgery at least. what THIS particular type of monitoring does is keeps a very very close eye, by virtue of electrodes attached to 'key' motor and sensory nerves all over your body(depending how high up in that spinal they are) including both legs to make CERTAIN that before a surgeon actually goes ahead to remove "something"(like a fragment) when the cord could just potentially be compromised in any way, the monitor would show it as kind of a 'bad move' so that attempt to remove like a fragment would have to be completely stopped THAT way, and attempted from a different angle. its kind of an early warning system in a way, but this is always done by who is a 'neurophysiatrist" who's ONLY job during that surgery is to keep an eye on that monitor and your body to see/check for any possible indicators of motor/sensory impact. they do NOT paralyze a person for this type of a surgery(they usually DO the paralytic with other surgerys to keep the patient as still as possible) only becasue they have to be able to detect certain movements one can make if esp a motor nerve or anything within that cord is being encroached upon or suffered some kind off inadvertant 'hit' or just becomes stimulated in some way(tho your head and higher upper body most certainly IS attached to that OR table). they only do this level of monitoring for very specific types of cases where there just IS the even remote possibility that they may have to dig around looking for lost fragments, or esp if they have to go under that main protective of the cord ligament at all.

they had to do this when they went into my cord tho since every move could have, and some did, cause direct damage to it. but alot of at least what happened to my L leg being knocked out and the loss of my eight fine motor muscles in my L hand i knew about already pre op. there was other 'collateral damage tho that i did NOT expect at all. believe me, this was the most agonizing 'choice' i ever had to make just knowing the 'knowns' of what i would end up with, but also knowing if i did nothing, that the next bleed i had WOULD have closed off my remaining cord space at c 8 nerve level and paralyze me from like around the nipple line down. pretty sick decision to have to make.

if you do not yet have ALL of your surgical documants from any hosps where you had the spinal surgerys, i would very HIGHLY encourage you to try and get them now. you need to see if they did indeed do that intra op monitoring and what your 'starting/baseline nerve flow velocitys were, and what could have taken place during esp the surgery with the fragmenting, and to see what your ENDING flow velocitys actually were with that same surgery. it should be in a totally seperate report from what are the actual NSs "op notes" that HE has to make after any surgery? these are like 'his transcript' of any surgery he has done. those op notes should be in there too, and definitely read thru as well.

and from here on out make dang certain that you obtain any and all testing results, which i am sure at some point this phys will do an EMG on you. we DO have the right toour medical documants. but all the surgical info really would be a good thing to have and to simply read thru,esp any intra monitoring notes AND the surgeons "op notes' as well. they kind of tell their own story in them. i keep like EVERYTHING from any testing to all the info from the hosps on all my many surgerys too.

i WOULD ask this phys about 'why can't i find my nose with my finger with my eyes shut and then see what he has to say on that. it IS a part of your proprioperception so it is either from some level of damage to that specific tract, or something i am not aware of that could even 'do that' when tried. but simply even knowing our extent of damage helps 'us' to better understand why certain things are occuring or even lost as a once had ability among other things. you just have also of areas up there and with the repeated surgical crap that alot of different things just 'could be' being affected now, or from past surgical interventions too. and that scar tissue that builds up in us can be pretty nasty stuff. i had a TON of what my NS called very thick and fibrotic scar tissue in only the 9 month period between getting my ACDF and the need to add that plate and screws when he FINALLY listened to me when i told him i did NOT 'feel' or actually heard(crunching grinding and really sick crap coming from within my neck) that i was NOT at all fully fused. he said post op to me just cutting thru that much scar tissue took almost two whole hours since it attaches to all of the inner structures including the vessesls in there as well? and that crap CAN also impact areas as well in and of itself depending upon where it is and how impactful it is to surrounding sturctures too. every surgery done in the same place just tends to add its own levels of new scar tissue too. its just the bodys 'natural reaction" unfortuently for us.

you still could get some really good benefit from that injection yet(thankfully he DOES appear to also use flouroscopy too. the 'x ray" on a screen?). with just about every type of injection i have ever gotten, and there HAVE been alot of different types over the years, ALL of them usually will generate MORE pain before they finally 'kick in' for me. they also DO tend to take some 'days' before actualy feeling any benefit from them as well. thats how most of mine have usually gone.and it does not appear to mattter too overly much just what 'type' it is either for some odd reason. so just wait and see what happens. i would make certain that the next time you see that phys that you DO ask him if there was anything else that when he tested came up abnormal or off in any way too, just so you know. this type of specialist should be able to tell you just by the testing and watching how you do things,and the stim and respose actions you have or do not have anymore just what is and is not being or has been impacted in certain ways. this IS their specialty. the more info you can find out about your extent of invlovement, esp if there is ANY actual cord impact, the better informed you just are for decisions among other things. i am really curious to know just exactly how that knee tap test went as to how your reactions were in both legs? normal or hyper. that would tell alot. i just really DO have some suspiscions here about certain things possibly being impacted that you were not yet aware of. it all depends upon the scans, EMGs and hands on tests. marcia

Feelbad, thanks for answering my question about the nose thing. When I couldn't do this at the my Physiatrists office I was really supprized and stateted I missed in a very surprized way and his comment was I know very solemnly. I wondered what was up. I did have an EMG and the doctor that performed that test told me I did not have any permanent peripherary nerve damage. He also told me that I could have a normal EMG test with nerve root damage or impingement. I know from reading boards like this and medical sites that you can have nerve root impingement and or damage have a perfectly normal EMG test. I am going to start collecting my medical records to try and get to the bottom of this extremely large mess I find myself in right now. I am five days post cervial spinal block with no relief. Lots of weakness left arm pain and electric bolts all over the place. You really are an inspiration to me and I feel like I have a kindred spirit. I do have another question. I am almost 57 years old. I am taking 600mgs of Horizant daily which is a form of Gapapenterine (sp) for hot flashes. It is so not working at all. I don't have hot flashes I vocanic eruptions that physically make me nauseated and give me headaches. The strange thing about is it is not located just in my chest and out anymore it is even my hands, shoulders chest with profuse sweating and I mean profuse. After your statment about blood pressure and such is it possible that my spine could be doing this also. I had this when I was heavier and really bad uncontrollable high blood pressure like 200 over 140. I was taking like 6 bp meds 3 times a day to stabilize it. Then I lost about 50 lbs and it seemed to resolve itself. I had really bad sweating then also. I remeber seeing the first MRI of my spine when I went to my now neurosurgeon and everysingle cervical disc was cramed to the left in the spinal canal. The graft that was in there was about 1/3 of the other discs. I just don't have any information and I realize I must get proactive in my own spinal health just for peace of mine. Thank you so much for all the information, especially about the eyes closed test which I must say is a little daunting to say the least. When they did the contrast CT scan this month I did get a copy of it. I have been doing comparissons of my back normal physiology and mine is certainly lacking. I can see very clearly the budging disc at c-3-c4. I also have areas on the last redo graft that did not grow together completely. It also kind looks like I have some screws that are broken with solid gray lines thorugh them instead of the all white. But I am not a doc. I have been considering taking my CT scan and going to a physician that is not within the same care group. My neurosurgeon, physiatrist, imaging ctr and surgical hospital are all owned by all the docs I see. Thanks again for support and information that I truly feel I have received from you. Any info on the sweating and temperature thing would be so appricated. Will keep in touch for sure as I gather the fact.
Regards.