Posted
by
timothyon Thursday October 20, 2011 @01:56PM
from the ungrateful-whelps dept.

destinyland writes "A California librarian is urging librarians to complain to Amazon over issues with privacy and advertising in Amazon's new Kindle ebook lending program for libraries. 'In our greedy attempt to get content into our users' hands, we have failed to uphold the highest principle of our profession, which is intellectual freedom,' she argues in a 10-minute video. (Read the transcript here). Amazon keeps your history of reading library ebooks on their corporate servers, 'so it's an instant violation of all of our privacy policies. And we haven't told people that, and we need to tell people that.' And while many libraries have strict policies against endorsing a particular product, the check-out process concludes on Amazon.com with a pitch urging library patrons to purchase more Amazon books — and there's even book-buying plugs in their 'due date' reminders."

I'm confused as to how it makes sense for Amazon to work with libraries if they cant even advertise.

How about letting libraries lend books directly from overdrive like the epub books ? or supporting epub format for kindle ? They can make all the money they want. Just not by advertising on eBook rentals which are purchased with public funds and have nothing to do with Amazon except for their dogged notion of not supporting epubs.

Libraries pay for books. And Amazon gets advertisement just from having their products used, but doesn't necessarily have to say "Go buy our book!"

Although it does not seem inconsistent with library policies not to endorse, at least no more so than selling a regular book is, because regular books have advertisements by other books by the author, etc...--some older books [and magazines] even have order forms in them.

Libraries pay for books. And Amazon gets advertisement just from having their products used, but doesn't necessarily have to say "Go buy our book!"

Although it does not seem inconsistent with library policies not to endorse, at least no more so than selling a regular book is, because regular books have advertisements by other books by the author, etc...--some older books [and magazines] even have order forms in them.

I tried to untangle that double negative phrase.. but anyway.. consider this: You own a bookstore. Your local library, which you fund through taxes, has advertisements for Amazon popping up all over. Pissed, yet?

Libraries, as public entities, should show no favoritism or grant preferential placement/access to resources influenced by a directly related private business.

If the local painter wants to give the library a reduced rate on redecorating for the placement of a placard indicating the fine (or shoddy) work was performed by Local Painter, that's one thing, as it does not directly affect access to books/periodicals.

If you have to have an Amazon account to checkout ebooks on a kindle, that's a barrier. If the books include advertising for Amazon and their offerings of books, that is also a barrier.

True, local booksellers have a legitimate grievance, and one that is much more problematic with amazon than it was when it was only the publishers who were doing it and is much more problematic when people can buy from amazon immediately than when there was mail order.

But that difference is one of degree--an important difference of degree, I grant, and one which should be considered carefully, but still not a fundamental change of policy, when you think about it. Because books *Always* advertise. Sometime

Pissed? Naw, with businesses advertising in our government run operations, at tax payers expense, consider the possibilities:
1. Getting a coupon with your tax return for a discount on Suppositories?
2. Or when you get a speeding ticket, the officer also hands you a coupon for a free eye exam at Lens Crafters...
3. Before sentencing, a convicted pedophile, and everyone else must listen to a 30 minute infomercial for Ronald MacDonald House.
4. During an arrest, the suspect, bent over the hood of a car is giv

You're right about older works of fiction often having order forms in the back of them for more by the same author(s) or works from other writers in the same genre. But I seem to recall that this was only in the paperback and digest formats, especially for book club editions. Hard covers, anthologies and what are called trade paperbacks usually didn't have them. For more popular titles, publishers would often print a library edition, paperback or trade paperback in size, but sewn, not perfect bound and with

The libraries can be ordered under a FISA warrant to hand over your entire history. Not just the books you've checked out, but also all other media (dvds, periodicals), any search requests you made while logged into their system either locally or remotely, any library-hosted events you attended, and any and all other information they have on you... all while being required to NOT tell you that they've handed over the info even if you ask.

IIRC, exactly that rule made some libraries ditch their records about books returned. The librarians seem to be some of the staunchest protectors of civil liberties. They didn't want to turn over anything to the authorities, so they minimised the amount of information they had.

"Generally" is a big assumption, esp. for small-town operations where nepotism is important to getting the job.

You may want to verify this with your local librarian (be prepared to follow up with the software vendor).

The librarian is not a programmer, and has not audited the code. They know what the vendor tells them - nothing more. This is especially true for solutions that are either completely or partially hosted o

I used to work for a company that makes library software and this is actually a very important issue in that field. While keeping a list of who has what is unavoidable, the librarians are very adamant that there should be no borrowing history stored. When you return the book they make a point to delete all records that show you ever had it.

I used to work for a company that makes library software and this is actually a very important issue in that field. While keeping a list of who has what is unavoidable, the librarians are very adamant that there should be no borrowing history stored. When you return the book they make a point to delete all records that show you ever had it.

So, you check out a book, find that it's damaged, and return it - and they have no way of telling who took it out before you. They have 50 other customers with the sam

When the book is processed in, which still happens by an actual human being everywhere I am aware of, they are supposed to notice any damage and note it in the book's record along with the date and note in the patron's record that they returned a damaged book.

They're not going to notice that some smart-a** removed the last page, so you end up not knowing how the story ends (happened once) or that some other fundy librarian had sliced out pages in a reference work (you know, the books that don't get checke

Untrue. My public library has all the books I ever checked out. I have browsed my account online before it goes back years actually.

You should request that they remove the data.

You might also contact your legislature to request a bill to mandate patron privacy. In Montana, the library patron has a right to privacy, except in the matter of overdue books and bills. Libraries are also required by the state legislature to post a notice informing patrons of the danger of patron records being seized by Federal agents and that librarians would be unable to inform them (the patrons) of any seizure. Within months, the Montana Shared Catalog im

This is misleading. The library keeps records of what you currently have checked out. My public and school libraries do not keep a record of what I have checked out in the past. Your library may differ, but the ALA officially vigorously defends individuals right to intellectual freedom, and that includes not tracking reading history.

Most libraries have privacy policies that state they delete the record of a book being checked out once it is returned. For example, you can find the policy for NYC public libraries here: http://www.nypl.org/help/about-nypl/legal-notices/privacy-policy [nypl.org]. They even state that they backup their data, and the record of your returned book may exist for an additional 4 weeks in their rolling backup system. I love that they give you this level of detail into how they operate.

Actually your library records are no longer covered, that part of the PATRIOT Act was not renewed. FISA only covers foreign agents. I know because the head librarian for the Medina County Library system has been one of the champions against COPA, the Patriot Act provision, and any other legislation which restricts the freedom of her patrons to freely read what they want without the government peering over their shoulder.

Except if you have any relationship to that foreign agent in anyway. If you've contacted him, or even if he's contacted someone you've contacted. You are subject to FISA as well.

... does that include checking out the same book they did? Speaking of which, library books make great ways to pass coded messages back and forth. All you need is some vinegar or a light pencil, or even a pin.

First, it's a good thing that you're not a librarian, because your reading comprehension needs some work. I never said that all libraries keep everything for years and years. I *did* say that they do keep records - and that obviously includes what's checked out and by whom.

Second, just because you delete a record doesn't mean it's gone. Ever hear of back-ups?

Third, how much control do you have over the company that you outsource the application to?

I've discussed this with our campus library: they deliberately keep no records at all of book lending. I wanted them to look up my records for a specific book I'd borrowed in the past and couldn't remember the title of, and they couldn't help me get it that way. (We found it via other searches) Cornell's library [cornell.edu] has posted a set of disclosure notices which seem pretty much in touch with our library and others that I've asked about since

It might not be a bad idea for Amazon to work out a similar plan: simply destroy the record once the book is returned. They might have to burn some ad records as well though, since I'm sure they're offering the book for sale, and it would be easy to track that if they got subpoenaed. My guess is that is where Amazon would balk.

Strangely enough, my little small town coffee shop (one of two in town, neither are a chain) *is* a free book box. They've got shelves full, feel free to come in, get some coffee, take a (paperback only) book home. And next time you come in for your coffee, feel free to return it, or bring some other books or magazines in. They have a good assortment of hard cover books, but those aren't allowed out of the store...

Prattlings from a worker in yet another doomed profession.
I have several friends who work at libraries, and I'm constantly amazed at their delusions of relevance. More and more money spent acquiring multiple copies of best sellers rather than expanding the breadth of the library. Money wasted on video games and popular DVDs.
A single years' budget could buy everyone in my city one of the subsidized Kindles. Lease the real estate to purchase e-books for lending.
Instead, they're expanding the number of

Poorly managed and funded libraries will obviously be irrelevant. Well funded and managed libraries will never become irrelevant. The problem is that our country doesn't value education and sharing anymore. The decline of our library system tells us nothing about libraries, but it speaks volumes about our country.

Posting a semi-releveant Wikipedia article isn't much of a counter.
The Kindle is a delivery mechanism. I can already check books out of the local library on it without ever spending another $1 at Amazon. But the selection sucks, because instead of buying digital copies that will never wear out, and will never be returned late, won't be unavailable because the only copy is at branch X instead of Branch Y,etc, they're buying dead tree versions.
Digital distribution could dramaticallt expand a library's r

We're not that far away from a time when ebooks are cheap enough for libraries to actually lend out. Borrowing books is only one facet of a library's usefulness, around here they have free classes, access to computers, not to mention librarians that can find all sorts of information that one has a hard time finding on ones own.

Right now a Kindle, for instance, is $79 new, DVDs and some of the more expensive books can be that much or more to replace.

I agree that there's a reason we have free public libraries. I'm not suggesting that the need for free public libraries goes away. I'm suggesting that what the need for a physical presence and tangible books is going the way of the vinyl LP and the record store.

Amazon keeps your history of reading library ebooks on their corporate servers, 'so it's an instant violation of all of our privacy policies.

Doesn't the library keep a record of my reading history that is accessible by the gov'ment under the "patriot" act? How is this any worse? At least Amazon can do something positive with the data and make recommendations of books I might like...

Doesn't the library keep a record of my reading history that is accessible by the gov'ment under the "patriot" act?

If you'd read the earlier posts, you'd know that they don't. However, the current ebook lending system at my library requires using some crappy Adobe software which presumably has to 'phone home' for DRM, so I'm not sure how this is worse.

Does it really surprise anyone? Amazon is the company that went and deleted people's books AFTER they were paid for and amazon will do what it takes to make a dollar. Libraries and Amazon really don't have the same mission (and shouldn't) so why is this any surprise.

“The American Library Association (ALA) opposes any use of governmental power to suppress the free and open exchange of knowledge and information or to intimidate individuals exercising free inquiryALA considers that sections of the USA PATRIOT ACT are a present danger to the constitutional rights and privacy rights of library users.” - From the ALA website.

“The searches of some records kept by libraries and bookstores were authorized in an obscure provision of the USA Patriot Act, quietl

Hi -
I think a lot of people here are focusing more on Librarian In Black's concern of the "Buy Now" buttons - when you should be concerned about your privacy. First, I get why she is annoyed by the "Buy Now" button. Libraries do not wish to "endorse" a particular service or product over another - and the "Buy Now" button gives the sense that "This Library supports Amazon" over another bookseller.

As for the privacy concerns, I've noticed a lot of comments on "Well, don't libraries give up those records with the PATRIOT act anyway?" When the PATRIOT act was enacted, libraries in the US scrambled to protect the rights of their users and the majority of them only have a record of who has what item out at that time - they do not have a record of what you returned.

And of course, there are lots who are saying "Libraries, bah - NOT RELEVANT." And I'm sure that is true for many of you; however, the library is more than books. Libraries provide a space for people to gather, they provide free internet to those who cannot afford it, they provide lessons on various computer programs, storytimes for children, etc. I am in an academic college library, and the majority of my students cannot afford their textbooks, let alone a computer for them to use. Please remember, you are probably viewing this article from your own computer - there are still a lot of people out there who don't have that luxury.
Libraries help people with research, and despite what everyone thinks - not everything is found via Google. Perhaps Rush Limbaugh could have used a librarian / library when he made those horrible remarks about the LRA.

Libraries do not wish to "endorse" a particular service or product over another - and the "Buy Now" button gives the sense that "This Library supports Amazon" over another bookseller.

Does it? I don't think I would ever see it that way. I'd see it as my Kindle endorsing Amazon. I'd fully expect to see something encouraging me to buy from B&N on a Nook. This doesn't surprise me, I expect Amazon to track what I'm doing. That's how all their recommendation stuff works. It should probably be disclosed (and

The inconsistency in the Slashdot ethos about information is stunning. The library is THE PLACE that has kept information free in American society and when a librarian stands up for everyone in trying to a) protect privacy and b) give people access to information without bias, y'all complain?

Where else can you, within current copyright law, read an entire book for free? Get it sent to your local library? Read an eBook for free? Take your kids and let them read and play in a special area for them? Take

If I agree with her, and her library has a copy of the book I want, I will read it in hard copy. If I disagree with her, I will resent that she is advocating for all libraries to take this choice from me... Even when they don't HAVE a copy of the book I want to read in hard copy.

Actually, this is the only Kindle program I really like. Participating libraries can provide something they may not HAVE a copy of (saving small libraries). And if they DO have the hard paper copy, I'd probably prefer it anyway,

My daughter is 4 and she loves going to the library and picking out books to read. I occasionally get a library book myself but never off the shelf, I register online and they deliver it directly to my house. I can return it to any library in my county. They also have a wide selection of movies and television series that my wife occasionally checks out, yet another "aid" in the movement to ditch cable on top of Netflix and Hulu.

i go once a year and it's always full. people too cheap to pay for internet and asian kids

in this day when internet is $10 a month i can't understand how anyone would want to use it at the library

Because people can't fucking adapt.

I'll keep my 'net. When it goes away or becomes unusable, I'll head right back to the library. Adaptation: not that difficult. Unless you're too tied to social rules and games in life to focus on anything else but looks and "coolness". I digress.

Public libraries are not targeted at working professionals - they are largely targeted at those who are able to visit them during business hours - retirees, the unemployed, stay at home parents and children. For most of us, paying $8 for a paperback is not an expensive proposition - fractional hour of income for multiple hours of pleasure. For those demographics listed above without direct income, the appeal is quite obvious.

I used to buy a lot of books, but then I had to pack them all into boxes to move across the Atlantic and realised that borrowing them made far more sense when it was something I wasn't likely to read multiple times.

I buy a lot of books, I have tried going digital a couple of times and it sucks in so many levels I don't even want to get started. The show stopper, whatsoever, remains one thing: When you buy digital you end up with a copy of nothing (yeah that still is pretty much nothing).

If the information is nothing, why bother buying a book when you can just buy a box of paper for a much lower price?

I use my library all the time. They have a decent web interface where I can order what I want to be put on hold for me, and they email me when it's in. When I stop by I usually see a couple of other good books as well. They also have ebooks available through Overdrive; they just added Kindle/mobi books, but I haven't checked any of them out so I don't know if the checkout process is any different. I don't think that the Overdrive process would send you to Amazon, but I may be wrong on that.

Almost every week.My kids are avid readers, so during the summer they check out about 8 books a week.

It' also has a good movie selection, and a game selection. It has teen specific activities, literacy programs, ESL programs, public space for meetings... and a coffee shop. Sadly they won't let me check out coffee~

Libraries are very relevant. I suggest you look at the features of your local library.

I use my local library all the time. Just read Danielewski's latest. And the new Ice and Fire (didn't want to pay $30 for a new hardcover) My wife uses it all the time, she just finished reading all three Hunger Games. My kids use it WAY more than I do (two kids, 5 books each, every other week). And there's always at least one or two other people in line to check out books when I go to check mine out.

To say nothing of all the people using the internet PCs in there. And the storytime for the kids. And

My wife, at least once this week (DVDs and books). Me, once this week and probably tomorrow (to get out of the home office for a bit, and maybe a book). Pick any random day at any random time the Redmond, WA King County Library is open, and the parking lot will be a minimum of half full. Weekends or after work/school it's probably close to full.

That's not counting the eBooks that don't involve going to the b&m library. Overdrive worked, but was generally a PITA. The Amazon setup, all other complaints as

The point is that if your librarian has that data then your government can subpoena it. And there is a long history of governments using such data in pernicious ways (e.g. "blacklist anyone who has checked out the Communist Manifesto from employment").

For the rest, I suggest googling the phrase "I've got nothing to hide" and doing some reading....