Post by Roselyn T on Jun 24, 2018 21:32:35 GMT -5

Where did black stockings come from that women had to wear when i was a child and also dress plainly, no make up, no jewellery and not cutting their hair. Then their were all the other things like not reading books, no radio and later no TV, no sport, no Music, no dancing and all the other rules.

Is this all becoming a bit more relaxed because of parents not forcing their children to conform to the "rules"? As others have spoken of - some children were not allowed to play sport or have 'worldly' friends etc, but others were because their parents allowed it?

Yes it is thelight, because parents have realized that the next generation is not going to put up with all the "stupid rules"! You only have to look at the amount of people from our generation that no longer go to meetings to see the decline.

Post by emy on Jun 24, 2018 21:44:09 GMT -5

Well, I would say that MOST children who have stable guidelines while growing up end up being quite successful. "Kids" I know who fit that description have good jobs with plenty of responsibility. Hmmm.. really can't think of any failures.

Some people say faith is a childish gamePlay on, children, like it's Christmas day...

Post by Roselyn T on Jun 24, 2018 21:46:30 GMT -5

Well, I would say that MOST children who have stable guidelines while growing up end up being quite successful. "Kids" I know who fit that description have good jobs with plenty of responsibility. Hmmm.. really can't think of any failures.

Post by thelight on Jun 24, 2018 22:20:55 GMT -5

"Kids" I know who fit that description have good jobs with plenty of responsibility. Hmmm.. really can't think of any failures.

That may be the case, but I wonder how many children raised in the more strict households - at some point in their lives - feel isolated, outcast, different which causes mental illness & as though they have to live two lives just to fit in & seem 'normal' to outsiders? People can still be successful in their employment but suffer internally.

Post by friend on Jun 24, 2018 22:37:59 GMT -5

"Kids" I know who fit that description have good jobs with plenty of responsibility. Hmmm.. really can't think of any failures.

That may be the case,

{{ but I wonder }}

how many children raised in the more strict households - at some point in their lives - feel isolated, outcast, different which causes mental illness & as though they have to live two lives just to fit in & seem 'normal' to outsiders? People can still be successful in their employment but suffer internally.

Post by emy on Jun 24, 2018 22:46:49 GMT -5

Well, I would say that MOST children who have stable guidelines while growing up end up being quite successful. "Kids" I know who fit that description have good jobs with plenty of responsibility. Hmmm.. really can't think of any failures.

Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 23:13:00 GMT -5

I would say I do feel a bit "disadvantaged" from having grown up in the 2x2 system...but it's pretty subjective really.

I missed out on some things by not having a TV and not being in on conversations with my friends about movies/TV shows...or even able to do some school assignments centered around movies/TV shows. But then again, I developed a love for reading...I would devour a chapter book every day or two!

I feel the most disadvantaged socially, but it's really hard to know what part of that is my hard-wired personality (nature) vs my upbringing in the 2x2's (nurture). As an introvert and female 2x2, I hated standing out because of my appearance...I desperately just wanted to blend in, to look like everyone else and not have ppl notice me. I got made fun of a lot...ppl called me Amish and asked me where my horse and buggy were. Wearing skirts was seen as "dressing up" so ppl assumed I was prissy and stuck up...when really I was just incredibly shy and socially awkward. And then there are little things like I never learned to do a cartwheel because I was always wearing a skirt. Simple, I know...but now that I have daughters who want to learn how to do cartwheels, it seems like a bigger thing to me. I wore skirts in PE up until 7th grade when we started "dressing out" for PE class in a specified uniform: red shorts and white t-shirt. So I didn't really develop many athletic skills. While my classmates were running around, kicking balls and such I had to run laps by myself because I couldn't do a lot of the activities everyone else was doing. As soon as I had the option (10th or 11th grade) I opted to take extra elective classes and not do PE anymore. I had to get the principal to sign off on it for me but thankfully he always did. No one ever wanted me on their team anyway...

I will admit it did take me a while to identify some positives from my childhood in the 2x2's but I finally got there. The love for reading was definitely one. Another is my ability to sing. I took piano lessons for 8 years and have always loved music. I loved the acapella singing in the meetings...it taught me to sing different parts and to harmonize. And I was very blessed to have a great group of professing kids my age who lived relatively close by. My parents, and some of the other kids' parents in our area, were really good about hosting annual get-togethers with the professing youth. Kids would come from neighboring states all over the Midwest for our get-togethers...the boys would stay overnight at one house and the girls at another, and we'd do stuff together during the days. They really were a great group of kids...I've lost touch with most of them now but look back on those days fondly!

Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 23:20:40 GMT -5

"Kids" I know who fit that description have good jobs with plenty of responsibility. Hmmm.. really can't think of any failures.

That may be the case, but I wonder how many children raised in the more strict households - at some point in their lives - feel isolated, outcast, different which causes mental illness & as though they have to live two lives just to fit in & seem 'normal' to outsiders? People can still be successful in their employment but suffer internally.

I would put myself in that category. I was raised in what I would classify as a strict 2x2 household. In total vulnerability here, we stopped going to meetings about 4.5 years ago and I have seen 3 counselors over the years since. I would say I had a bit of an "identity crisis" after leaving. I was diagnosed with situational depression...having 3 kids in 4 years and leaving meetings between the last 2 definitely set it off. It got to the point where if you asked me my favorite color, I couldn't have told you. I didn't know what kind of food I liked, what style of clothing I liked, how I wanted to decorate my house...nothing. I felt like I had been living the way everyone else wanted me to for so long I didn't know who *I* wanted to be. I did a lot of studying and discovered some gifts/passions/callings that I have now pursued and that's all been solved. But it was an interesting and difficult journey for sure...

Post by thelight on Jun 24, 2018 23:25:47 GMT -5

That may be the case, but I wonder how many children raised in the more strict households - at some point in their lives - feel isolated, outcast, different which causes mental illness & as though they have to live two lives just to fit in & seem 'normal' to outsiders? People can still be successful in their employment but suffer internally.

It got to the point where if you asked me my favorite color, I couldn't have told you. I didn't know what kind of food I liked, what style of clothing I liked, how I wanted to decorate my house...nothing. I felt like I had been living the way everyone else wanted me to for so long I didn't know who *I* wanted to be.

Thank you for being so open & i can definitely relate to those feelings!! It is difficult to obtain a real sense of self identity when growing up in a strict 2x2 household thats for sure. So glad that you sought some help & have found yourself & enjoyable hobbies

Post by Roselyn T on Jun 24, 2018 23:26:53 GMT -5

"Kids" I know who fit that description have good jobs with plenty of responsibility. Hmmm.. really can't think of any failures.

That may be the case, but I wonder how many children raised in the more strict households - at some point in their lives - feel isolated, outcast, different which causes mental illness & as though they have to live two lives just to fit in & seem 'normal' to outsiders? People can still be successful in their employment but suffer internally.

The amount of kids who have had to live two lives to fit in or appear normal to "outsiders" would be huge. I don't think we can always say that because a person is successful in their employment that they had a stable upbringing, either.

Post by havejoy on Jun 25, 2018 8:57:50 GMT -5

After reading this article earlier this morning & feeling absolutely appalled at that situation all over again.. one particular piece of information has struck a chord with me. "The siblings, who range in age from 2 to 29, knew little about the outside world".

I am interested to hear others thoughts (possibly more aimed at ex's) regarding children being disadvantaged being raised in the truth.

I can recall feeling embarrassed & like an outcast during high school when a class discussion was raised about pop culture relating to current television shows - everyone was expected to write up a quick review to share with the class. Pretty difficult to do when you do not own a television.... (this is just one example from a whole childhood/adolescence of being made feel this way)

Personally I can see how I (& others) was not properly prepared for the "real world" & was raised in a very sheltered environment. Trying to learn, adjust & adapt to fit in is difficult & I have seen it cause mental health issues for so many people once they have left.

How many others have experienced this?

This touches something very deep for me. Growing up ( there was alot of good too) was such a big struggle. My early years were not so bad, because at that point you don't really understand you just do what your told and its fine. It starts in those pre teen/teenage years. The impressionable years. I never fit in at school, my social skills were severely lacking. I remember parts of my childhood being forced to wear a skirt over my snowpants even. We were not allowed to take religion class in school ( yes we had religion) because it would just confuse us kids and possibly open up a whole new world. I couldn't have sleepovers with friends, I had to beg beg beg to go on class trips, I would sneak my jeans to school and change into them just so I could feel normal for one day. No make up, no tv, no music, no Christmas, no Halloween so yes I felt so very isolated from the rest of the world. I whole heartely believe that all of that is the reason I struggle so much with my self esteem, self confidence today. When you are told over and over and over that the rest of the world in bad? Of course that is going to mess with your brain. So today I am learning about the bible and all that it means for our life. I read it is a new exciting way. And as for our kids.. It is very important to my husband and I that we raise them NOT isolated from the world but as children to LOVE God and are not ashamed to be lights in this world. We celebrate christmas with a tree and presents ( and no we don't worship the tree) I feel like I missed out on so,much in my childhood that we don't want our kids to ever feel that. Our kids are in sports, dance, they have friends and sleepover. Our daughter wear jeans if she wants, jewelry. If it was wrong to do so we ( my husband and I ) would feel it. Anyways sorry about the long responce, but this struck a chord with me. 💓

Post by snow on Jun 25, 2018 12:46:04 GMT -5

"Kids" I know who fit that description have good jobs with plenty of responsibility. Hmmm.. really can't think of any failures.

That may be the case, but I wonder how many children raised in the more strict households - at some point in their lives - feel isolated, outcast, different which causes mental illness & as though they have to live two lives just to fit in & seem 'normal' to outsiders? People can still be successful in their employment but suffer internally.

Absolutely. I have been successful in life, respected in my work etc. No one knows how much of a struggle it is to appear happy though. I think it's fair to say that those of us that have been struggling with low self esteem from childhood have also learned to hide it well. I often feel 'fake' because I don't feel inside what people see me projecting on the outside. But you have to if you want to succeed.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by snow on Jun 25, 2018 12:51:34 GMT -5

After reading this article earlier this morning & feeling absolutely appalled at that situation all over again.. one particular piece of information has struck a chord with me. "The siblings, who range in age from 2 to 29, knew little about the outside world".

I am interested to hear others thoughts (possibly more aimed at ex's) regarding children being disadvantaged being raised in the truth.

I can recall feeling embarrassed & like an outcast during high school when a class discussion was raised about pop culture relating to current television shows - everyone was expected to write up a quick review to share with the class. Pretty difficult to do when you do not own a television.... (this is just one example from a whole childhood/adolescence of being made feel this way)

Personally I can see how I (& others) was not properly prepared for the "real world" & was raised in a very sheltered environment. Trying to learn, adjust & adapt to fit in is difficult & I have seen it cause mental health issues for so many people once they have left.

How many others have experienced this?

This touches something very deep for me. Growing up ( there was alot of good too) was such a big struggle. My early years were not so bad, because at that point you don't really understand you just do what your told and its fine. It starts in those pre teen/teenage years. The impressionable years. I never fit in at school, my social skills were severely lacking. I remember parts of my childhood being forced to wear a skirt over my snowpants even. We were not allowed to take religion class in school ( yes we had religion) because it would just confuse us kids and possibly open up a whole new world. I couldn't have sleepovers with friends, I had to beg beg beg to go on class trips, I would sneak my jeans to school and change into them just so I could feel normal for one day. No make up, no tv, no music, no Christmas, no Halloween so yes I felt so very isolated from the rest of the world. I whole heartely believe that all of that is the reason I struggle so much with my self esteem, self confidence today. When you are told over and over and over that the rest of the world in bad? Of course that is going to mess with your brain. So today I am learning about the bible and all that it means for our life. I read it is a new exciting way. And as for our kids.. It is very important to my husband and I that we raise them NOT isolated from the world but as children to LOVE God and are not ashamed to be lights in this world. We celebrate christmas with a tree and presents ( and no we don't worship the tree) I feel like I missed out on so,much in my childhood that we don't want our kids to ever feel that. Our kids are in sports, dance, they have friends and sleepover. Our daughter wear jeans if she wants, jewelry. If it was wrong to do so we ( my husband and I ) would feel it. Anyways sorry about the long responce, but this struck a chord with me. 💓

The double life was not an easy one. It made me feel bad that I had to hide things all the time and I had no one to talk to if things I did went wrong because I wasn't doing them in the first place. It was a lonely life that you couldn't share with your parents. It also made me feel like I was a bad person because I didn't like to have to deceive them just to go play baseball for example. I too had clothes at school that I changed into.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by havejoy on Jun 25, 2018 13:00:47 GMT -5

This touches something very deep for me. Growing up ( there was alot of good too) was such a big struggle. My early years were not so bad, because at that point you don't really understand you just do what your told and its fine. It starts in those pre teen/teenage years. The impressionable years. I never fit in at school, my social skills were severely lacking. I remember parts of my childhood being forced to wear a skirt over my snowpants even. We were not allowed to take religion class in school ( yes we had religion) because it would just confuse us kids and possibly open up a whole new world. I couldn't have sleepovers with friends, I had to beg beg beg to go on class trips, I would sneak my jeans to school and change into them just so I could feel normal for one day. No make up, no tv, no music, no Christmas, no Halloween so yes I felt so very isolated from the rest of the world. I whole heartely believe that all of that is the reason I struggle so much with my self esteem, self confidence today. When you are told over and over and over that the rest of the world in bad? Of course that is going to mess with your brain. So today I am learning about the bible and all that it means for our life. I read it is a new exciting way. And as for our kids.. It is very important to my husband and I that we raise them NOT isolated from the world but as children to LOVE God and are not ashamed to be lights in this world. We celebrate christmas with a tree and presents ( and no we don't worship the tree) I feel like I missed out on so,much in my childhood that we don't want our kids to ever feel that. Our kids are in sports, dance, they have friends and sleepover. Our daughter wear jeans if she wants, jewelry. If it was wrong to do so we ( my husband and I ) would feel it. Anyways sorry about the long responce, but this struck a chord with me. 💓

The double life was not an easy one. It made me feel bad that I had to hide things all the time and I had no one to talk to if things I did went wrong because I wasn't doing them in the first place. It was a lonely life that you couldn't share with your parents. It also made me feel like I was a bad person because I didn't like to have to deceive them just to go play baseball for example. I too had clothes at school that I changed into.

Post by havejoy on Jun 25, 2018 13:09:54 GMT -5

This touches something very deep for me. Growing up ( there was alot of good too) was such a big struggle. My early years were not so bad, because at that point you don't really understand you just do what your told and its fine. It starts in those pre teen/teenage years. The impressionable years. I never fit in at school, my social skills were severely lacking. I remember parts of my childhood being forced to wear a skirt over my snowpants even. We were not allowed to take religion class in school ( yes we had religion) because it would just confuse us kids and possibly open up a whole new world. I couldn't have sleepovers with friends, I had to beg beg beg to go on class trips, I would sneak my jeans to school and change into them just so I could feel normal for one day. No make up, no tv, no music, no Christmas, no Halloween so yes I felt so very isolated from the rest of the world. I whole heartely believe that all of that is the reason I struggle so much with my self esteem, self confidence today. When you are told over and over and over that the rest of the world in bad? Of course that is going to mess with your brain. So today I am learning about the bible and all that it means for our life. I read it is a new exciting way. And as for our kids.. It is very important to my husband and I that we raise them NOT isolated from the world but as children to LOVE God and are not ashamed to be lights in this world. We celebrate christmas with a tree and presents ( and no we don't worship the tree) I feel like I missed out on so,much in my childhood that we don't want our kids to ever feel that. Our kids are in sports, dance, they have friends and sleepover. Our daughter wear jeans if she wants, jewelry. If it was wrong to do so we ( my husband and I ) would feel it. Anyways sorry about the long responce, but this struck a chord with me. 💓

The double life was not an easy one. It made me feel bad that I had to hide things all the time and I had no one to talk to if things I did went wrong because I wasn't doing them in the first place. It was a lonely life that you couldn't share with your parents. It also made me feel like I was a bad person because I didn't like to have to deceive them just to go play baseball for example. I too had clothes at school that I changed into.

Not to mention feeling so guilty and thinking "why can't I just be like all these people ( F&W) then trying your best over and over to be the perfect professing girl only to fail over and over.. Gahhhh even thinking about it again brings on anxiety and stress. This is not what Jesus meant when he said to follow him. He did not want us to be filled with so much anxiety and stress. He died to set us FREE from all that slavery. Being free to let the Holy Spirit lead my life just a joy and a peace that is indescribable.

Post by snow on Jun 25, 2018 13:27:30 GMT -5

The double life was not an easy one. It made me feel bad that I had to hide things all the time and I had no one to talk to if things I did went wrong because I wasn't doing them in the first place. It was a lonely life that you couldn't share with your parents. It also made me feel like I was a bad person because I didn't like to have to deceive them just to go play baseball for example. I too had clothes at school that I changed into.

Not to mention feeling so guilty and thinking "why can't I just be like all these people ( F&W) then trying your best over and over to be the perfect professing girl only to fail over and over.. Gahhhh even thinking about it again brings on anxiety and stress. This is not what Jesus meant when he said to follow him. He did not want us to be filled with so much anxiety and stress. He died to set us FREE from all that slavery. Being free to let the Holy Spirit lead my life just a joy and a peace that is indescribable.

I am glad that you have escaped that and are feeling much better with your spirituality.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by emy on Jun 25, 2018 18:39:43 GMT -5

Absolutely. I have been successful in life, respected in my work etc. No one knows how much of a struggle it is to appear happy though. I think it's fair to say that those of us that have been struggling with low self esteem from childhood have also learned to hide it well. I often feel 'fake' because I don't feel inside what people see me projecting on the outside. But you have to if you want to succeed.

I have a very good friend from high school who is beautiful, popular, was cheerleader and all that. Just in the last few years I have discovered how much she has struggled in her life and did even then. No she was NOT one of the friends, and I'm quite sure no one in our school would have had a clue how she was feeling. She feels it is the result of having emotionally cold parents. Most of us thought she had the perfect life and perfect family.

There is no way all blame can be laid to the f&w fellowship. Some people are warm, some are not, but they are found in all lifestyles.

Some people say faith is a childish gamePlay on, children, like it's Christmas day...

Post by dmmichgood on Jun 25, 2018 19:25:48 GMT -5

That may be the case, but I wonder how many children raised in the more strict households - at some point in their lives - feel isolated, outcast, different which causes mental illness & as though they have to live two lives just to fit in & seem 'normal' to outsiders? People can still be successful in their employment but suffer internally.

I would put myself in that category.

I was raised in what I would classify as a strict 2x2 household.

In total vulnerability here, we stopped going to meetings about 4.5 years ago and I have seen 3 counselors over the years since. I would say I had a bit of an "identity crisis" after leaving.

I was diagnosed with situational depression...having 3 kids in 4 years and leaving meetings between the last 2 definitely set it off.

It got to the point where if you asked me my favorite color, I couldn't have told you.

I didn't know what kind of food I liked, what style of clothing I liked, how I wanted to decorate my house...nothing.

I felt like I had been living the way everyone else wanted me to for so long I didn't know who *I* wanted to be.

I did a lot of studying and discovered some gifts/passions/callings that I have now pursued and that's all been solved. But it was an interesting and difficult journey for sure...

Thank you for your story, befab86!

Sounds familiar.

"Identity crisis" sounds familiar as well.

Having 2 small boys 1 1/2 years apart & then having my sister-in-law worker really demanding that I move into her father's home so she could go back in the work or otherwise I was being selfish really did me in for quite a while.

Hanging on & not doing what she wanted took so much energy because I usually did whatever anyone said.

I know what you mean by having had no sense of myself as *I* .

Took me awhile to realize that just because someone said that "I should do this"or "should not do that" that *I* had a say in the matter!

Post by dmmichgood on Jun 25, 2018 19:34:35 GMT -5

Absolutely. I have been successful in life, respected in my work etc. No one knows how much of a struggle it is to appear happy though. I think it's fair to say that those of us that have been struggling with low self esteem from childhood have also learned to hide it well. I often feel 'fake' because I don't feel inside what people see me projecting on the outside. But you have to if you want to succeed.

I have a very good friend from high school who is beautiful, popular, was cheerleader and all that. Just in the last few years I have discovered how much she has struggled in her life and did even then. No she was NOT one of the friends, and I'm quite sure no one in our school would have had a clue how she was feeling. She feels it is the result of having emotionally cold parents. Most of us thought she had the perfect life and perfect family.

There is no way all blame can be laid to the f&w fellowship. Some people are warm, some are not, but they are found in all lifestyles.

Emy, -maybe you had an easy time growing up but there are enough problems for all teens trying to become mature adults without all the extra restrictions that the f&w fellowship strew in our path!

Post by snow on Jun 26, 2018 11:58:22 GMT -5

Absolutely. I have been successful in life, respected in my work etc. No one knows how much of a struggle it is to appear happy though. I think it's fair to say that those of us that have been struggling with low self esteem from childhood have also learned to hide it well. I often feel 'fake' because I don't feel inside what people see me projecting on the outside. But you have to if you want to succeed.

I have a very good friend from high school who is beautiful, popular, was cheerleader and all that. Just in the last few years I have discovered how much she has struggled in her life and did even then. No she was NOT one of the friends, and I'm quite sure no one in our school would have had a clue how she was feeling. She feels it is the result of having emotionally cold parents. Most of us thought she had the perfect life and perfect family.

There is no way all blame can be laid to the f&w fellowship. Some people are warm, some are not, but they are found in all lifestyles.

I agree, it's not totally the fault of the group. However, when people believe such rigid doctrines it will definitely have an impact on their kids when they discipline them or make their rules. Not being able to be part of the world you are in can definitely have an impact. The way I dressed brought ridicule until I started taking normal clothes to school. Because I was athletic and wanted to be part of sports and couldn't, I had to face that too. The friends would make comments to me after I quit professing that were meant to guilt me enough to come back I suppose, but when you're 12 and they say things like 'you're just being selfish' or 'is this the way you thank your parents for adopting you', or the lady where my mom stayed when she had cancer, "you do know that it's your fault she has cancer. When you quit professing you caused her so much stress'. So if you wonder why I might struggle with self esteem issues, it wasn't just the rigid upbringing and the isolation, it was the comments from the friends themselves that did a number on me. I was very shy and to be blamed for everything because I quit professing was very hard on me.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by friend on Jun 27, 2018 23:39:42 GMT -5

Except in the vision of eternity being the settling out of all human reasonings, how could we humans define:

Such altruistic values like , “what is good?” , “what could possibly be better than good?”

Where does the value of doing “good” have as abase/basis ?

I mean really now... the concept needs to be rootedin some value that is perceived as an altruistic value, and not a concept that is rooted in humanity survival, because without principlesthat are governing human behavior, mankind would be very vain , very much vain, IMO 🤷‍♂️

Post by Roselyn T on Jun 28, 2018 20:36:00 GMT -5

Except in the vision of eternity being the settling out of all human reasonings, how could we humans define:

Such altruistic values like , “what is good?” , “what could possibly be better than good?”

Where does the value of doing “good” have as abase/basis ?

I mean really now... the concept needs to be rootedin some value that is perceived as an altruistic value, and not a concept that is rooted in humanity survival, because without principlesthat are governing human behavior, mankind would be very vain , very much vain, IMO 🤷‍♂️

Post by wally on Jun 28, 2018 20:39:17 GMT -5

Except in the vision of eternity being the settling out of all human reasonings, how could we humans define:

Such altruistic values like , “what is good?” , “what could possibly be better than good?”

Where does the value of doing “good” have as abase/basis ?

I mean really now... the concept needs to be rootedin some value that is perceived as an altruistic value, and not a concept that is rooted in humanity survival, because without principlesthat are governing human behavior, mankind would be very vain , very much vain, IMO 🤷‍♂️

We don't need religion or the bible to have morals "friend" !

right, like you came up with them on your own?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Post by friend on Jun 28, 2018 21:16:33 GMT -5

Except in the vision of eternity being the settling out of all human reasonings, how could we humans define:

Such altruistic values like , “what is good?” , “what could possibly be better than good?”

Where does the value of doing “good” have as abase/basis ?

I mean really now... the concept needs to be rootedin some value that is perceived as an altruistic value, and not a concept that is rooted in humanity survival, because without principlesthat are governing human behavior, mankind would be very vain , very much vain, IMO 🤷‍♂️

We don't need religion or the bible to have morals "friend" !

If that is your “theory” , please explain why God gave the 10 commandments to the Hebrew people at Mt Sinai ?

Post by dmmichgood on Jun 28, 2018 21:23:32 GMT -5

Except in the vision of eternity being the settling out of all human reasonings, how could we humans define:

Such altruistic values like , “what is good?” , “what could possibly be better than good?”

Where does the value of doing “good” have as abase/basis ?

I mean really now... the concept needs to be rootedin some value that is perceived as an altruistic value, and not a concept that is rooted in humanity survival, because without principlesthat are governing human behavior, mankind would be very vain , very much vain, IMO 🤷‍♂️

You have been told multiple times about the evolution of biological life and development of mankind and you have denied it the same number of times!

This post continues to convey that you have not an inkling as how evolution of biological life works.

I wouldn't bother to answer but there are times that some false conceptions simply must be answered!

But I am NOT going to educate you when all you need to do is to do your own research!

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wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...Feb 26, 2020 22:04:28 GMT -5

ant_rotten: Does anyone else constantly have a pop up saying “do you want to download index.html” when using TMB desktop version? This happens to me both on my iPhone and iPad.. Feb 26, 2020 19:56:33 GMT -5

wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?Feb 20, 2020 6:03:05 GMT -5