Find a dealer that offers F30 loaners. I hope to get one next time I go in for service. The dealer's been waiting for AWD models to add the F30 to the loaner fleet.

boltjaM3s commented: December 16, 2012, 6:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

I am currently a E90 owner, an I am starting to like my car more and more everyday.

Other than what's on paper, I want to know what are your thoughts on living with E90 day to day vs F30.

I heard everywhere that the interior quality has improved over E90. I recently got to sit in a F30 and I do have to say they Did cut back on 'soft-touch' plastic on certain surfaces.

I owned an E90 for 3 years prior to my F30. The answer to your question (assuming you have a 328i) boils down to this:

The F30 is 80% of what the E90 was. Materials are the same. Fit and finish is the same.

The 20% that is different is a big deal:

Torque: The turbo 4 is just a beast, so much faster off the line than the 6 it replaces, really throws you back in your seat.

Power: Once at speed, there's plenty more power to burst past other cars. I'll be driving on the highway completely oblivious to the fact that I'm doing 92 MPH and will have to slow myself down. It's effortless.

Transmission: The 8 speed auto is so much faster and smoother and accurate than the version it replaced. Because you don't have to stomp on the accelerator to get the car to move anymore, the transmission doesn't have to jerk wildly to get from 1st to 2nd to 3rd gear anymore.

Steering: It's lighter and easier. The car weighs less, so the combination of the weight reduction and the torque increase completely transforms how the car drives. It's effortless, requires a lot less effort and thought to get the car to go where you want it.

Experience Modes: This is not just savvy marketing, throwing the switch from Comfort to Sport changes the driving characteristics of the car completely, it feels like two different cars. Sport mode is crazy fun. Comfort mode is easier for the wife and kids stomachs. The E90 had neither. Was not as fun as Sport mode, was not as eased as Comfort mode. This is a big deal, not to be overlooked.

Size: The car has increased in size so there's a bit more shoulder room and rear passenger legroom but it doesn't feel bigger.

Audio System is upgraded. If you have a standard audio system in the E90 you'll be thrilled with the standard audio system in the F30 as it's the "enhanced" system they pay extra for in Europe.

Visibility is better: I find that the A pillar and B pillar location combined with new rear seatback position gives me a better overall view of the road.

It's more quiet: Not sure if it's the sound deadening material or better door seals but the F30 definitely has a more soundproofed cabin.

Interior looks and acts better: This myth about materials and quality you've read is BS. It's the same as the E90. What's different is the layout of the center stack, the integration of the wood and the dash components, the ambient lighting, the new cupholders, the thought that went into the storage compartments.

Great new standard equipment: The auto dimming mirrors, split-folding rear seat, power seats, garage door openers, and other throw-in's really make the experience better.

Technology: iDrive is now standard on all F30's. Nuff said. If you get the Technology Package, the head up display is crazy good and extremely functional.

Un-Bangled: The F30 has more refined sheetmetal, specifically the nose of the car which no longer looks like a Japanese pachinko machine.

BJ

CE750Jockey commented: December 16, 2012, 6:38 pm

So he should keep his E90?

beden1 commented: December 16, 2012, 7:33 pm

E90 comparison versus F30

(this is a poorly written article that I found on Wilkpedia, but it does quote Car and Driver)

New F30 saloon is 93 mm (3.7 in) longer, 6 mm (0.2 in) wider (42 mm (1.7 in) including mirrors) and 8 mm (0.3 in) taller than its predecessor (E90). The wheelbase is longer by 50 mm (2.0 in). Also boot space is bigger by 20 litres (0.71 cu ft). Even though the new 3 Series is bigger and has more standard equipment than its predecessors, it is lighter than the model it replaces. For example, the new 328i has the same weight as the outgoing 325i and the new 335i is 40 kilograms (88 lb) lighter than the outgoing 335i.[20]

Notable downgrades to the new 3-series from its E90 predecessor include the deletion of LED turn signals in both the headlight and tail light clusters (with the return to traditional bulbs), as well as the replacement of non-intrusive, articulated gas-strut trunk hinges with cheaper, obstructive gooseneck hinges.

Enthusiast magazine reviews were also less than stellar. In their November, 2012, issue, Car and Driver wrote, "We're convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30." [1] In the April, 2012, issue they noted an increase in weight, versus the BMW's suggestion of a loss: "weight gain from our last E90 335i test car is 77 pounds, at least some of which must be from the new optional 19-inch wheels ($900) . . . ." Furthermore, acceleration suffered in comparison to the E90 as well, "A slower 5-to-60 time of 5.9 seconds-we expected mid-fives for that-also indicated that something may have been amiss. The magazine closed the generally ambivalent article with, "At some point, BMW will have to take a bigger step to move forward or risk falling behind its competitors"

sle39lvr commented: December 16, 2012, 8:03 pm

Excellent replies.

Overall, do you feel like the 3-series lost it's 'Feel'?

boltjaM3s commented: December 16, 2012, 8:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

Excellent replies.

Overall, do you feel like the 3-series lost it's 'Feel'?

Not at all.

If anything, the 3 Series has gained more feel if you define "feel" as a car that is faster, more powerful, and acts lighter and more nimble.

If you define "feel" as a harsh, noisy, uncomfortable ride with truck-like steering, then the E90 would be preferred.

BJ

krash commented: December 16, 2012, 8:29 pm

I have to confess that I have not driven an F30 yet, but I am pretty certain that I am definitely going to enjoy it as much or more than my E90.

Besides, I'm getting a new car anyway, and it's not like there are hundreds of options to choose from, right?

Of course if my 2003 ZHP were sold today with a new 4 year warranty, I'd take that car without pause. It's way smaller (yahoo), not as luxurious but far more alive/exciting to drive and far better looking than the e9x/f3x cars. Sadly, BMW no longer sells a compact sedan in the US double XL.

Of course if my 2003 ZHP were sold today with a new 4 year warranty, I'd take that car without pause. It's way smaller (yahoo), not as luxurious but far more alive/exciting to drive and far better looking than the e9x/f3x cars. Sadly, BMW no longer sells a compact sedan in the US double XL.

Driving feel is what I was going after. I wish my e90 could have early e46 steering feel

Of course if my 2003 ZHP were sold today with a new 4 year warranty, I'd take that car without pause. It's way smaller (yahoo), not as luxurious but far more alive/exciting to drive and far better looking than the e9x/f3x cars. Sadly, BMW no longer sells a compact sedan in the US double XL.

The new 1-series sedan should fit your desire for a compact sedan. If you can wait 3 years of course.

DerekS commented: December 16, 2012, 9:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

Driving feel is what I was going after. I wish my e90 could have early e46 steering feel

No staggered set up on F30 Sport's?

Having owned and driven BMWs since 1984, I would say the F30-335i M Sport that I now drive comes closest in steering feel to my retired E46/ZHP. I had 3 different E90s and the steering heft in all of them was heavy in comparison to the F30. I should mention that my car has the Variable Sport steering, which I would highly recommend. It's very direct, accurate and quick turning in tight corners. It also has good on centre feel. Only the feedback to road imperfections may be less than it was with the E46/ZHP, but overall, I'm very impressed with the VSS coupled with M Adaptive suspension.

I realize that in the US, if you order VSS, you also have to get the M adaptive suspension, which my car also has. This is another worthwhile option. I would far rather spend my option budget on features that improve the feel and handling of the car than on technical toys like HUD.

As for staggered set-ups, if you ordered the M sport version, you get a proper staggered set-up with summer performance tires (non-staggered all-seasons are an option, only in the US). For the Sportline version, if you opt for the 19" wheels/tires, you would get staggered summer performance tires.

When comparing the styling of my current 335i M Sport to past BMWs that I have owned, the only retired car that stands out for me is the E46/ZHP coupe. But I really admire the styling of my M Sport !!! To my eyes, the M Sport stands well above any of the other F30 versions or any of the competitors.

My suggestion is that you borrow a F30 Sportline or M Sport and drive it for at least an hour over a variety of roads and at higher speeds. Although the car is slightly larger, it doesn't feel larger, but it does feel more solid (because it is a stronger body shell) and it is quieter @ higher speeds. However, the N55 engine still makes some wonderful sounds !!!

bayoucity commented: December 16, 2012, 9:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Not at all.

...
If you define "feel" as a harsh, noisy, uncomfortable ride with truck-like steering, then the E90 would be preferred.

BJ

BJ, do you really prefer that light steering in your F30? The only item I dislike about F30 is the EPS. Otherwise, BMW has done a marvelous job on F30's suspension especially during urban driving.

boltjaM3s commented: December 16, 2012, 9:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayoucity

BJ, do you really prefer that light steering in your F30? The only item I dislike about F30 is the EPS. Otherwise, BMW has done a marvelous job on F30's suspension especially during urban driving.

Yes, I do.

It's not bad, it's just different. At speed, took me two days to get used to it, to have the car respond the way I was used to after 6 years in E9X's. When parking or navigating the driveway, it's a dream, far less endless turning to deal with.

BJ

captainaudio commented: December 16, 2012, 10:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Yes, I do.

It's not bad, it's just different. At speed, took me two days to get used to it, to have the car respond the way I was used to after 6 years in E9X's. When parking or navigating the driveway, it's a dream, far less endless turning to deal with.

BJ

Are we talking about steering effort or steering ratio.

Does your car have active steering?

CA

sle39lvr commented: December 16, 2012, 10:13 pm

What's making F30 have less driving feel? Other than EPS..

boltjaM3s commented: December 16, 2012, 10:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Are we talking about steering effort or steering ratio.

Does your car have active steering?

CA

I don't have active steering. My perception:

The steering ratio = same
The steering effort = same (at speed)
The steering effort = halved (at no speed)

When I drive on roadways and highways, the steering feels the same to me. When at a dead stop making a 3-point turn in a tight driveway, the new steering requires half as much force, no longer getting a P90X workout just getting out of the garage.

From a feel standpoint, I don't feel the undulations of the pavement in my palms, I don't feel the vibration of the tires on the road, but a turn left or a turn right feels more responsive because the car feels faster and lighter.

Let me know if that makes sense.

Also, for the OP, my perspective is from the least 'sporty' configuration. I have a Luxury line with the standard comfort suspension. Those with Sport lines and sport suspensions will tell you that the F30 feels the same or better than the E90, based on reading past threads.

My advice to you: Get to a dealer, arrange for a test drive. Make sure you hit the "Sport" button. If after 1000 feet of driving you don't have a smile on your face, stick with the E90.

BJ

captainaudio commented: December 16, 2012, 11:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I don't have active steering. My perception:

The steering ratio = same
The steering effort = same (at speed)
The steering effort = halved (at no speed)

When I drive on roadways and highways, the steering feels the same to me. When at a dead stop making a 3-point turn in a tight driveway, the new steering requires half as much force, no longer getting a P90X workout just getting out of the garage.

From a feel standpoint, I don't feel the undulations of the pavement in my palms, I don't feel the vibration of the tires on the road, but a turn left or a turn right feels more responsive because the car feels faster and lighter.

Let me know if that makes sense.

Also, for the OP, my perspective is from the least 'sporty' configuration. I have a Luxury line with the standard comfort suspension. Those with Sport lines and sport suspensions will tell you that the F30 feels the same or better than the E90, based on reading past threads.

My advice to you: Get to a dealer, arrange for a test drive. Make sure you hit the "Sport" button. If after 1000 feet of driving you don't have a smile on your face, stick with the E90.

BJ

I haven't driven an F30 yet so I really don't have a valid opinion between the two. As for what I read here and elsewhere I take all of that with a grain of salt based on my experience with the RFTs and OEM shocks on the E90. I do know that I preferred the way the sport suspension on the E93 felt compared to the stock suspension after I test drove both but I was totally unprepared for the "Pothole Explosions" (although I was able to solve that issue).
I have seen that a number of automotive jounalists whose opinion I respect feel that the F30 improved on the E90 in many ways but that the E90 had better "feel" than the F30. In a sense that is a moot point since the E90 is no longer available. What would make more sense is to compare the F30 to competitors that are currently available and in that respect it seems to be holding its own. After my experiences with the 335i and the 750 I will never buy a New York car that does not have an adjustable suspension.

I willl not be buying an F30 (I am sure it is an excellent car but I have no use for a small sedan) but will look at the 4 Series Cabrio when it was released. I will also look at a number of other cars and an particularly interested in the new Jaguar F-Type.

I really don't understand the complaints about the heavy steering in the E9x. I honestly never noticed it and I drive a wide variety of cars every year,

bayoucity commented: December 16, 2012, 11:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

...
I really don't understand the complaints about the heavy steering in the E9x. I honestly never noticed it and I drive a wide variety of cars every year,

CA, the steering on E9x is neither too heavy nor truck-like. At the time I purchased E90 was because its HPS felt so different than other makes on the market. That was then & there isn't really anything comparable to E90 at the moment except maybe 1 series. F30's steering is more akin to C250 that you have been driving down at FL. However, F30 is a much better handling car than non-AMG C class.

F30's EPS requires much less effort to turn, hence it also gives impression you are driving a much lighter vehicle. It losses quite a bit of road feel. BJ's perception is fairly spot-on:

""The steering ratio = same
The steering effort = same (at speed)
The steering effort = halved (at no speed)
...
From a feel standpoint, I don't feel the undulations of the pavement in my palms, I don't feel the vibration of the tires on the road, but a turn left or a turn right feels more responsive because the car feels faster and lighter."

sle39lvr commented: December 16, 2012, 11:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I really don't understand the complaints about the heavy steering in the E9x. I honestly never noticed it and I drive a wide variety of cars every year,

I have a base e90 with non-Sports suspention but with OEM staggered 18's. Steering is HEAVY! I am no muscle man but I can't imagine women driving this car...

I DO like that heaviness. Very confident to command it around bends. This is the main reason I don't like EPS.. on straight's it just feels like I can drive it off road with a small jolt to the wheel....

One complain I have with E90 steering that EPS excel at is the center vagueness. It's way too slow and less accurate in the middle. EPS's never have that, they are way more accurate even on a Corolla...

brkf commented: December 17, 2012, 12:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

Driving feel is what I was going after. I wish my e90 could have early e46 steering feel

No staggered set up on F30 Sport's?

M Sport gets staggered, I believe. But then only black leather interior (which to me is a deal breaker).

captainaudio commented: December 17, 2012, 12:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

I have a base e90 with non-Sports suspention but with OEM staggered 18's. Steering is HEAVY! I am no muscle man but I can't imagine women driving this car...

I DO like that heaviness. Very confident to command it around bends. This is the main reason I don't like EPS.. on straight's it just feels like I can drive it off road with a small jolt to the wheel....

One complain I have with E90 steering that EPS excel at is the center vagueness. It's way too slow and less accurate in the middle. EPS's never have that, they are way more accurate even on a Corolla...

I have a 335i E93 and my wife drives it a lot and has never complained about heavy steering. I asked her if she found the steering to be heavy and she said she did not. Incidentally she has an issue with the strength and range of motion in her right arm due to an injury.

So the next time someone thinks that the steering on his car is too heavy keep in mind that a disabled woman has no problem with it.

CA

bayoucity commented: December 17, 2012, 12:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

I have a base e90 with non-Sports suspention but with OEM staggered 18's. Steering is HEAVY! I am no muscle man but I can't imagine women driving this car...

Does the steering feel much heavier on an 08 E90 vs. post-LCI models such as 11 E90? Anyone, you, CA, BJ ???

boltjaM3s commented: December 17, 2012, 12:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayoucity

Does the steering feel much heavier on an 08 E90 vs. post-LCI models such as 11 E90? Anyone, you, CA, BJ ???

Hmm.

I had a pre-LCI E93 and I found that the LCI E90 had more steering feel but I'm not sure if that's for technical reasons or because the XDrive Sedan had different driving characteristics than the RWD Cabrio.

I've driven E36's and E46's and those cars had SERIOUS road feel and planted steering. Almost like a go-kart. Extremely connected, extremely fun. Legendary.

The E90's and F30's are nothing like those cars. Comparing the road feel and/or steering between the E90 and F30 is like a 5%-er whereas compared to those earlier rides it would be comparing a magnitude of 50%.

While it's an interesting topic of discussion, the truth is it's a non-issue. Someone coming from an E36 to an F30 would have a seizure over what's happened to the 3 Series. Someone coming from an E90 to an F30 would merely say "oh, that's slightly different".

BJ

sle39lvr commented: December 17, 2012, 1:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Hmm.

pre-LCI E93 and I found that the LCI E90 had more steering feel

Wish someone could confirm this..

boltjaM3s commented: December 17, 2012, 1:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

Wish someone could confirm this..

If you were blindfolded on a deserted island and your life depended upon it, you couldn't tell the difference. The difference in steering feel is marginal.

What's more important is road feel (suspension tightness, handling in twisties, not steering) and what you need to know is this:

If you want superior road feel than your E90, you need to buy a used E36.

If you want equal road feel to your E90, you need to buy an F30 with the sport suspension.

If you want less road feel but a more comfortable ride than your E90, you need to buy an F30 with the standard suspension.

If you want the ability to change road feel on-the-fly, you need to buy an F30 with the Adaptive M Suspension.

With the steering questions, you're barking up the wrong tree. It's the F30 suspension that's markedly different than the E90. That's where your focus should be.

BJ

sle39lvr commented: December 17, 2012, 1:35 am

boltjaM3s,

I know this is not the right place to ask this question, but since you have driven most of these, have you a e9x with M control arms? How would that steering sit with those comparisons..

tturedraider commented: December 17, 2012, 1:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayoucity

Does the steering feel much heavier on an 08 E90 vs. post-LCI models such as 11 E90? Anyone, you, CA, BJ ???

There was no change in the steering throughout the E9x model run. None, pre-LCI or post-LCI. The steering did not change.

I've posted this before, I'll post it again. My 2006 E90 330i has active steering. IMO when set to sport mode the F30 feels virtually the same as my car and is every bit as direct and precise. I didn't drive the F30 in non-sport mode, because I would never drive one I owned that way.

I've driven many, many non-active steering E90s, E92s, and E93s on many occasions. I have no issue switching between my active steering and non-active steering.

Before I got my E90 I drove a 2004 E46 ZHP and a non-sport 2000 E46 328i.

I hope to get a chance soon to drive an F30 with variable sport steering.

I honestly think a large factor in people's complaints about the eps system is not really understanding how it works. The eps ONLY engages when the steering wheel is actively being turned. When the car is being driven straight there is zero power boost.

boltjaM3s commented: December 17, 2012, 2:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I honestly think a large factor in people's complaints about the eps system is not really understanding how it works. The eps ONLY engages when the steering wheel is actively being turned. When the car is being driven straight there is zero power boost.

Wow, did not know that. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

boltjaM3s,

I know this is not the right place to ask this question, but since you have driven most of these, have you a e9x with M control arms? How would that steering sit with those comparisons..

I don't think so. I had a 2009 E90 M-Sport XDrive but I do not believe it had any M suspension parts on it.

BJ

iamthewalrus commented: December 17, 2012, 12:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brkf

Of course if my 2003 ZHP were sold today with a new 4 year warranty, I'd take that car without pause. It's way smaller (yahoo), not as luxurious but far more alive/exciting to drive and far better looking than the e9x/f3x cars. Sadly, BMW no longer sells a compact sedan in the US...

My thoughts exactly. In the last 20 years that I've been driving, cars have grown massively in size and power. But the roads haven't grown any bigger. Parking lots haven't grown any bigger. Most garages haven't grown any bigger unless you've bought a new house. And the speed limits haven't increased.
Since I live in a city, the new 3-series and Audi A4 can't be on my shopping list. They're just too big. The VW GTI, Audi A3, Subaru WRX, and BMW X1 fit my life much better. I owned a 1998 Audi A4 Quattro and a 2006 BMW 330Cic (E46 generation), and the new A4 and 3-series are utterly massive in comparison.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: December 17, 2012, 2:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

There was no change in the steering throughout the E9x model run. None, pre-LCI or post-LCI. The steering did not change.

I've posted this before, I'll post it again. My 2006 E90 330i has active steering. IMO when set to sport mode the F30 feels virtually the same as my car and is every bit as direct and precise. I didn't drive the F30 in non-sport mode, because I would never drive one I owned that way.

I've driven many, many non-active steering E90s, E92s, and E93s on many occasions. I have no issue switching between my active steering and non-active steering.

Before I got my E90 I drove a 2004 E46 ZHP and a non-sport 2000 E46 328i.

I hope to get a chance soon to drive an F30 with variable sport steering.

I honestly think a large factor in people's complaints about the eps system is not really understanding how it works. The eps ONLY engages when the steering wheel is actively being turned. When the car is being driven straight there is zero power boost.

That's how Porsche has tailored their electric steering in the new 911. I'm not so sure BMW has the system set up that way. I believe it does actively boost steering with different modes(Sport,Sport + etc)

Chris90 commented: December 17, 2012, 2:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayoucity

From a feel standpoint, I don't feel the undulations of the pavement in my palms, I don't feel the vibration of the tires on the road, but a turn left or a turn right feels more responsive because the car feels faster and lighter."

I felt the same when I sold my E36 for the E46 ZHP. Granted you still feel something in the ZHP, just not as much as the E36. It's been going on for generations in BMWs, I think reviewers are catching on now because it's happening everywhere, even in Porsches, with EPS.

captainaudio commented: December 17, 2012, 3:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus

My thoughts exactly. In the last 20 years that I've been driving, cars have grown massively in size and power. But the roads haven't grown any bigger. Parking lots haven't grown any bigger. Most garages haven't grown any bigger unless you've bought a new house. And the speed limits haven't increased.
Since I live in a city, the new 3-series and Audi A4 can't be on my shopping list. They're just too big. The VW GTI, Audi A3, Subaru WRX, and BMW X1 fit my life much better. I owned a 1998 Audi A4 Quattro and a 2006 BMW 330Cic (E46 generation), and the new A4 and 3-series are utterly massive in comparison.

Go back an additional 20 years to the 1960s and you will see that cars then were for the most part much larger (although not necessarily heavier) than modern cars. I can remember when I was a kid and some of the neighbors had to extend their gargages to fit their new cars (and these were Fords, Chevrolets and Dodges). A modern large car, even a large sedan like an S Class Mercedes and a 7 Series would easily fit in one of those garages. Then a trend started where large cars began to get smaller.

Now we seem to be on a cycle where small cars are getting bigger. The Honda Accords and BMW 3 Series of today compared to the 1980 would be a good example. Virtually no manufacture is making a 3 door hatchback today and compact hatchbacks were one of the most popular configurations 25 years ago.

CA

av98 commented: December 17, 2012, 3:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris90

I felt the same when I sold my E36 for the E46 ZHP. Granted you still feel something in the ZHP, just not as much as the E36. It's been going on for generations in BMWs, I think reviewers are catching on now because it's happening everywhere, even in Porsches, with EPS.

I definitely don't miss the rattles and shakes in the E36 which the E46 refined out through fit and finish. However the E30 still has the best steering road feel and size compared to all the other three series.

Thank god they still sell Lotus Elises/Exiges that have no power steering at all (Like my AW11 MR2), they offer the best road feel.

Check out the latest Motortrend they did a comparison between the latest EPS BMW has versus their older hydraulic based steering rack.

LegendsNeverDie commented: December 17, 2012, 3:44 pm

Here is some good information for you but obviously you have to drive them both back to back.

For what it's worth, the British enthusiast car mags like EVO and CAR, who are way more unbiased than paid advertisers like C&D or Motor Trend, love the F30 and the new 135i, both of which even they say have no steering feel whatsoever.

They basically love the cars despite the lack of steering feel.

Chris90 commented: December 17, 2012, 3:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by av98

I definitely don't miss the rattles and shakes in the E36 which the E46 refined out through fit and finish. However the E30 still has the best steering road feel and size compared to all the other three series.

Thank god they still sell Lotus Elises/Exiges that have no power steering at all (Like my AW11 MR2), they offer the best road feel.

Check out the latest Motortrend they did a comparison between the latest EPS BMW has versus their older hydraulic based steering rack.

Me neither, I only miss my E36 if I'm on a really smooth road, which isn't often.

I drove a rental Toyota Yaris with no power steering in Curacao. That was kind of exciting, trying to keep it on the road amongst the rolling hills.

Michael Schott commented: December 17, 2012, 4:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

Here is some good information for you but obviously you have to drive them both back to back.

For 2013 power seats are std on all models in the US. And low rolling resistance tires are the reason some poor braking results in car mag tests.

tturedraider commented: December 17, 2012, 5:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

For 2013 power seats are std on all models in the US. And low rolling resistance tires are the reason some poor braking results in car mag tests.

+1, on both counts. Virtually every E9x ever tested by these testers was a sport package model with a staggered summer performance tire set up. Now they're testing the F30 Sport line models, which come standard with a square set up and low rolling resistance all season tires. Of course, on the Sport line summer performance tires are a no-cost option, but they NEVER tell what tires are on the tested car. Most of their results indicate pretty clearly the tires are almost certainly the lesser models.

Having said that BMWNA deserves the brunt of the blame, because the reviewers only test cars that BMWNA supplies. Knowing the tests are going to focus on near at-the-limit performance it is truly stupid for BMWNA to supply cars that are not equipped for maximum performance results. Heck, if BMWNA would supply cars for testing that had summer performance tires AND the Dynamic Handling package we would be reading reviews that talked about how well the F30 handles and that for a mere $1,000 you can have a car that is able to transform from a luxury highway cruiser to a track ready sport machine with just the push of a button. Gotta wonder what marketing genius is running the test car loaner operation at BMWNA.

boltjaM3s commented: December 17, 2012, 5:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Having said that BMWNA deserves the brunt of the blame, because the reviewers only test cars that BMWNA supplies. Knowing the tests are going to focus on near at-the-limit performance it is truly stupid for BMWNA to supply cars that are not equipped for maximum performance results. Heck, if BMWNA would supply cars for testing that had summer performance tires AND the Dynamic Handling package we would be reading reviews that talked about how well the F30 handles and that for a mere $1,000 you can have a car that is able to transform from a luxury highway cruiser to a track ready sport machine with just the push of a button. Gotta wonder what marketing genius is running the test car loaner operation at BMWNA.

+1

When I bought my 2013 F30 I didn't even know that the DHP existed or that the Adaptive M could make a harsh suspension soft. I assumed because it had the "M" in the name that it was going to be something I wouldn't want.

Between the dealers and BMW themselves, they do a really bad job of getting the word out on important features.

BJ

brkf commented: December 17, 2012, 9:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I have a 335i E93 and my wife drives it a lot and has never complained about heavy steering. I asked her if she found the steering to be heavy and she said she did not. Incidentally she has an issue with the strength and range of motion in her right arm due to an injury.

So the next time someone thinks that the steering on his car is too heavy keep in mind that a disabled woman has no problem with it.

CA

Ditto. Disabled too and the e9x 3 series never felt too heavy to turn. Felt fat in corners but that's different...

patrick_y commented: December 21, 2012, 1:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Not at all.

If anything, the 3 Series has gained more feel if you define "feel" as a car that is faster, more powerful, and acts lighter and more nimble.

If you define "feel" as a harsh, noisy, uncomfortable ride with truck-like steering, then the E90 would be preferred.

BJ

BJ, you're putting your car on a pedestal.

And your post below (in the link) was not very nice. Just because someone bought a pre-owned BMW doesn't mean they're a secondary citizen on these forums.

- The steering is definitely firmer on the E9x. When I finally got my car back I noticed this immediately.
- The power of the 328i engine is very good (not 335i amazing, but very quick.)
- The noise of the 328i sucks in comparison to my 335i though.
- Ride was better in the base 328i vs my 335i coupe w/ 18in wheels
- Handling was worse in the base 328i (not an apples to apples comparison since the 328i didn't have at least sports suspension). I drove it on "The Snake" in Malibu and it definitely felt more out of control than my 335i.
- The interior materials were fine, but I didn't like the leatherette compared with my leather seating surfaces
- The trunk hinges didn't bother me (probably because the loaner had comfort access). I started just doing the kick to open the trunk.
- Comfort steering is weird when you push it mid corner (it felt like it tightened). Sports steering felt great at speed and was still lighter than my E92 steering.

All in all I think the F30 is great. I'm not giving my 335i yet, but who knows when the new 4 series or 2 series comes out.

boltjaM3s commented: December 21, 2012, 8:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick_y

BJ, you're putting your car on a pedestal.

I'm not putting any car on any pedestal as it's just not that important to me.

Unless I'm misreading, you own an 10-year-old 5 Series, you haven't owned an E90 or an F30 so I'm struggling to understand how you add anything of value to this particular conversation.

BJ

dtc100 commented: December 21, 2012, 10:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I'm not putting any car on any pedestal as it's just not that important to me.

Unless I'm misreading, you own an 10-year-old 5 Series, you haven't owned an E90 or an F30 so I'm struggling to understand how you add anything of value to this particular conversation.

BJ

Prenowned F30s are appearing on dealer's lot, I think it is time we have a preowned F30 forum setup so BJ does not feel violated. Once the new forum is setup, BJ can go there and stay there too, since his F30 is no longer new.

Soon anyone who just got a new F30 could also feel violated knowing BJ is here driving a used two-year-old car.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 21, 2012, 10:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WaxComb

335i coupe owner who had a F30 328i base loaner for a week.

- The steering is definitely firmer on the E9x. When I finally got my car back I noticed this immediately.
- The power of the 328i engine is very good (not 335i amazing, but very quick.)
- The noise of the 328i sucks in comparison to my 335i though.
- Ride was better in the base 328i vs my 335i coupe w/ 18in wheels
- Handling was worse in the base 328i (not an apples to apples comparison since the 328i didn't have at least sports suspension). I drove it on "The Snake" in Malibu and it definitely felt more out of control than my 335i.
- The interior materials were fine, but I didn't like the leatherette compared with my leather seating surfaces
- The trunk hinges didn't bother me (probably because the loaner had comfort access). I started just doing the kick to open the trunk.
- Comfort steering is weird when you push it mid corner (it felt like it tightened). Sports steering felt great at speed and was still lighter than my E92 steering.

All in all I think the F30 is great. I'm not giving my 335i yet, but who knows when the new 4 series or 2 series comes out.

So many loaners are base suspension cars which will not do much to sway E90 owners.

My dealer recently gave me a F30 335 Sport loaded to the nines. That car with it's less grippy tires and less grippy pads made my smaller braked 328 feel like a more confidence inspiring car. The standard pads and all season tires make the F30 brakes very un BMW like.

The handling of an F30 BASE loaner they gave me, lots of body roll and felt floaty at highway speeds.

bikenski commented: December 22, 2012, 1:48 am

Just came out of a 328i xDrive loaner that I had for a few days while my E92 335i xDrive was in for service.

My take is that BMW spent *way* too much effort on "Eco Pro" gimmicks, and nowhere near enough focus on driving dynamics. Why should I have to press a bunch of buttons to try to make the car behave like a European sports sedan should, instead of driving like a Prius? Hit a button so the car doesn't turn itself off every time it stops, hit another button to keep the transmission from starting out in what feels like 3rd gear from lights, etc. And there isn't a button to make the 4 cylinder exhaust note sound befitting of a nearly $50,000 car. Come to think of it, even the steering was vague and artificial like that aforementioned Prius.

At least in a Prius you're rewarded with 50 mpg fuel economy for putting up with the lack of driving dynamics, but the 328 returned a whopping 3 MPG better than my 335 doing the same commute. I know that's a lot for a manufacturer struggling to meet tightening fuel economy standards, but to the actual vehicle owner, I don't think it's worth all the sacrifices that were made to eek out those few extra MPGs.

It's not all bad news though. The body structure of the F30 is tight as a drum, wind noise is noticeably lower than in the E9x, the automatic transmission is a huge improvement over the old GM unit, and the HUD and other tech gadgetry works well. None of those improvements kept me from being glad to hand back the key to the loaner and get back behind the wheel of my "old" E92 though.

Sure hope the upcoming F32 has much better driving dynamics, or my second BMW just might be my last. C'mon Munich - don't sacrifice the driving experience that sets you apart from the rest of the herd under the guise of efficiency!

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 22, 2012, 9:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikenski

Just came out of a 328i xDrive loaner that I had for a few days while my E92 335i xDrive was in for service.

My take is that BMW spent *way* too much effort on "Eco Pro" gimmicks, and nowhere near enough focus on driving dynamics. Why should I have to press a bunch of buttons to try to make the car behave like a European sports sedan should, instead of driving like a Prius? Hit a button so the car doesn't turn itself off every time it stops, hit another button to keep the transmission from starting out in what feels like 3rd gear from lights, etc. And there isn't a button to make the 4 cylinder exhaust note sound befitting of a nearly $50,000 car. Come to think of it, even the steering was vague and artificial like that aforementioned Prius.

At least in a Prius you're rewarded with 50 mpg fuel economy for putting up with the lack of driving dynamics, but the 328 returned a whopping 3 MPG better than my 335 doing the same commute. I know that's a lot for a manufacturer struggling to meet tightening fuel economy standards, but to the actual vehicle owner, I don't think it's worth all the sacrifices that were made to eek out those few extra MPGs.

It's not all bad news though. The body structure of the F30 is tight as a drum, wind noise is noticeably lower than in the E9x, the automatic transmission is a huge improvement over the old GM unit, and the HUD and other tech gadgetry works well. None of those improvements kept me from being glad to hand back the key to the loaner and get back behind the wheel of my "old" E92 though.

Sure hope the upcoming F32 has much better driving dynamics, or my second BMW just might be my last. C'mon Munich - don't sacrifice the driving experience that sets you apart from the rest of the herd under the guise of efficiency!

I had stop start coded at the dealer, no need to press a button.

I only press ONE button when I get in the car, and that's to set it to SPORT.

X-Drives are not available with the Sport suspension and every standard suspension F30 I have driven has felt lacking and does not present itself well to former E90 drivers.

dtc100 commented: December 22, 2012, 10:16 am

It appears BMW is trying to address the concerns of the euthusiasts. A coilover suspension system will be available that will lower the body by 20mm, twice that of the sport or m-sport. The performance exhaust is also available.

I am curious if the coilover can be ordered from the factory. The exhaust can be ordered and installed at the port of entry.

With this two items, the driving dynamics can be vastly improved. Even BMW stressed they are improving the "chassis" with the performance parts. I think they heard enough about the ATS chassis

IndyMike commented: December 22, 2012, 10:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I think they heard enough about the ATS chassis

We enthusiasts should be hoping not enough until they offer a factory optioned, or aftermarket performance limited-slip diff as well.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 22, 2012, 10:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

It appears BMW is trying to address the concerns of the euthusiasts. A coilover suspension system will be available that will lower the body by 20mm, twice that of the sport or m-sport. The performance exhaust is also available.

I am curious if the coilover can be ordered from the factory. The exhaust can be ordered and installed at the port of entry.

With this two items, the driving dynamics can be vastly improved. Even BMW stressed they are improving the "chassis" with the performance parts. I think they heard enough about the ATS chassis

No.

These parts were in development a long time ago.

Do you think OEM's just whip up, design, engineer, test, and tool up for production in a couple of months time?

Saintor commented: December 22, 2012, 10:31 am

Quote:

If you want equal road feel to your E90, you need to buy an F30 with the sport suspension.

Certainly not equal.

Even with SP, the F30 still suffers with too soft dampers and uncommunicative steering. There are plenty of good reasons to go with a F30, but road feel is not one of them.

dtc100 commented: December 22, 2012, 11:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

No.

These parts were in development a long time ago.

Do you think OEM's just whip up, design, engineer, test, and tool up for production in a couple of months time?

Yes, because I am not aware of a similar coilover system offered for previous gen 3 series. I think BMW is trying to address the complaint about the softer chassis.

Anyway the price and labor list is just out, the coilover system parts alone is almost $2k, with 8 hours of labor, and only for m-sport. If you have a non m-sport, need new subframe parts replaced too. Clearly not a reasonable approach for chassis improvement.

The performance exhaust systems are probably the most bang for the buck items, can be ordered, even residualized at lease.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 22, 2012, 11:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Yes, because I am not aware of a similar coilover system offered for previous gen 3 series. I think BMW is trying to address the complaint about the softer chassis.

Anyway the price and labor list is just out, the coilover system parts alone is almost $2k, with 8 hours of labor, and only for m-sport. If you have a non m-sport, need new subframe parts replaced too. Clearly not a reasonable approach for chassis improvement.

The performance exhaust systems are probably the most bang for the buck items, can be ordered, even residualized at lease.

The Sport and M Sport have arbs that the M Performance kit requires for base cars. Someone with a base car has already done it. The bars are about $300. No subframe differences.

CALWATERBOY commented: December 22, 2012, 11:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

boltjaM3s,

I know this is not the right place to ask this question, but since you have driven most of these, have you a e9x with M control arms? How would that steering sit with those comparisons..

Having done max M conversion, steering is tight @ sweet. But lacks the magic of Porsche.

I owned an E90 for 3 years prior to my F30. The answer to your question (assuming you have a 328i) boils down to this:

The F30 is 80% of what the E90 was. Materials are the same. Fit and finish is the same.

The 20% that is different is a big deal:

Torque: The turbo 4 is just a beast, so much faster off the line than the 6 it replaces, really throws you back in your seat.

Power: Once at speed, there's plenty more power to burst past other cars. I'll be driving on the highway completely oblivious to the fact that I'm doing 92 MPH and will have to slow myself down. It's effortless.

Transmission: The 8 speed auto is so much faster and smoother and accurate than the version it replaced. Because you don't have to stomp on the accelerator to get the car to move anymore, the transmission doesn't have to jerk wildly to get from 1st to 2nd to 3rd gear anymore.

Steering: It's lighter and easier. The car weighs less, so the combination of the weight reduction and the torque increase completely transforms how the car drives. It's effortless, requires a lot less effort and thought to get the car to go where you want it.

Experience Modes: This is not just savvy marketing, throwing the switch from Comfort to Sport changes the driving characteristics of the car completely, it feels like two different cars. Sport mode is crazy fun. Comfort mode is easier for the wife and kids stomachs. The E90 had neither. Was not as fun as Sport mode, was not as eased as Comfort mode. This is a big deal, not to be overlooked.

Size: The car has increased in size so there's a bit more shoulder room and rear passenger legroom but it doesn't feel bigger.

Audio System is upgraded. If you have a standard audio system in the E90 you'll be thrilled with the standard audio system in the F30 as it's the "enhanced" system they pay extra for in Europe.

Visibility is better: I find that the A pillar and B pillar location combined with new rear seatback position gives me a better overall view of the road.

It's more quiet: Not sure if it's the sound deadening material or better door seals but the F30 definitely has a more soundproofed cabin.

Interior looks and acts better: This myth about materials and quality you've read is BS. It's the same as the E90. What's different is the layout of the center stack, the integration of the wood and the dash components, the ambient lighting, the new cupholders, the thought that went into the storage compartments.

Great new standard equipment: The auto dimming mirrors, split-folding rear seat, power seats, garage door openers, and other throw-in's really make the experience better.

Technology: iDrive is now standard on all F30's. Nuff said. If you get the Technology Package, the head up display is crazy good and extremely functional.

Un-Bangled: The F30 has more refined sheetmetal, specifically the nose of the car which no longer looks like a Japanese pachinko machine.

BJ

Sorry but I have to disagree on much of this. Turbo 4 is about the same as out going in line 6. I had a F30 328 for a month while my 335 was in the shot.

The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.

Materials are cheaper PERIOD.

8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.

mr_clueless commented: December 24, 2012, 8:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by westcory

Sorry but I have to disagree on much of this. Turbo 4 is about the same as out going in line 6. I had a F30 328 for a month while my 335 was in the shot.

The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.

Materials are cheaper PERIOD.

8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.

Was it a no line car that you had as a loaner? There is some speculation that the road noise is higher in those as compared to cars with a line.

Also, you have one of the earlier E90's. Once they started decontenting those ca. 2009, they had increased road noise too.

The BMW-est commented: December 24, 2012, 8:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by westcory

Sorry but I have to disagree on much of this. Turbo 4 is about the same as out going in line 6. I had a F30 328 for a month while my 335 was in the shot.

The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.

Materials are cheaper PERIOD.

8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.

The turbo 4 and the inline six of the E90 328 are not "about the same". I drove an E90 328i for years and it was thoroughly gutless, regardless of how nice the engine sounded. I have no regrets going to the N20 despite all the so-called purist cries of "heresy".

boltjaM3s commented: December 24, 2012, 9:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by westcory

Sorry but I have to disagree on much of this. Turbo 4 is about the same as out going in line 6. I had a F30 328 for a month while my 335 was in the shot.

The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.

Materials are cheaper PERIOD.

8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.

You are allowed to disagree. You are also allowed to be wrong.

Turbo 4 vs. Inline 6: If you don't feel a power difference between the old 328i and the new 328i then you were in a car with a bad engine. The first thing anyone will notice coming from an E90 to an F30 is how much more responsive and powerful the new engine is. Night and day different. No comparison.

Road Noise: A no-line stripper probably has less sound deadening material. My Luxury line is much quieter than my E90 was.

Materials: Again with this "cheaper" myth. It's all the same. Door panels, dashboard, console, just a different design with the same plastics. If anything, the cup holders, door handles, storage compartments and other areas where your limbs actually touch the car are better designed and more comfortable. BMW claims many soft-touch areas with materials that cost more than the outgoing model.

You love your old car. We get it. No need to slam the new one.

BJ

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 24, 2012, 9:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by westcory

Sorry but I have to disagree on much of this. Turbo 4 is about the same as out going in line 6. I had a F30 328 for a month while my 335 was in the shot.

The road noise is MUCH higher so much so I almost got a f10 when I had to reorder my car.

Materials are cheaper PERIOD.

8 spd is nice unless you drive it hard, in which case it always seems to be shifting.

LOL.

There are opinions and there are facts.

It has been a factual discovery that the N20 makes a substantial amount more torque than the outgoing N52.

I have heard it directly from tuners that before they would not have gotten into offering tuning products for the base 3 before as it was not worth it but were impressed with the out of box performance and potential of the N20.

dtc100 commented: December 24, 2012, 11:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

LOL.

There are opinions and there are facts.

It has been a factual discovery that the N20 makes a substantial amount more torque than the outgoing N52.

I have heard it directly from tuners that before they would not have gotten into offering tuning products for the base 3 before as it was not worth it but were impressed with the out of box performance and potential of the N20.

I would not call it "factual discovery" though, just a fact. Out of box performance was not so impressive, maybe because I drive my E90 in sport and manual modes all the time, and punch it to high RPM. People who are not used to do so will definitely feel the difference in the turbo N20, since you can keep it at below 3k to get the full power.

Saintor commented: December 24, 2012, 11:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

People who are not used to do so will definitely feel the difference in the turbo N20, since you can keep it at below 3k to get the full power.

Full power doesn't happen before early 5000rpms.

Saintor commented: December 24, 2012, 12:31 pm

And I have no idea why people think that the 2012 328i performance is night and day difference with the 2011 328. This is flat-out wrong.

If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.

The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.

The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...

boltjaM3s commented: December 24, 2012, 12:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

And I have no idea why people think that the 2012 328i performance is night and day difference with the 2011 328. This is flat-out wrong.

If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.

The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.

The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...

I've owned both cars.

The F30 is just flat out faster.

BJ

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 24, 2012, 12:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

And I have no idea why people think that the 2012 328i performance is night and day difference with the 2011 328. This is flat-out wrong.

If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.

The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.

The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...

You are picking and choosing certain tests to focus on, and give examples like Automobiles dyno which seems to be the lowest recorded N20 Dynojet I have seen.

You show Car and Drivers test that were done years apart, different drivers, different days, all kinds of variables. But you want to focus on the 2 tenth closeness of the 5-60mph to prove a point. At the same time, 0-100 is a good indicator of power(0-60, it depends on a lot on number of shifts etc) and your own example has the 0-100 of 14.5 vs 16.1. That is substantial.

You also have top gear acceleration which shows in YOUR example the N20 has quite a substantial pull compared to the N52, 30-50/50-70 at 9.5/7.7 seconds for the N20 vs 10.4/10 seconds for the N52. That is being nice and using your articles, not ones I can find that have better 0-60, lower ETs, higher traps etc. So top gear 50-70 shows a 2.3 second advantage for the N20, but you want to be hung up on YOUR examples in the one magazine on different days that show 6.4 vs 6.6 for 5-60mph?

Then you want to factor in actual MPG returns from magazine testing. Again, tons of variables there at play. EPA is not perfect, but it isolates variables that allow comparison car to car. If you really think that real world testing favors the N52 as the more efficient engine than the N20 than you are simply wrong. Real world testing is not having one magazine review done years apart from another. A better indicator?

Tirerack did testing on the same tire, I think it's the Michelin Super Sport, same loop, they have an F30 AND and E92 test. The F30 was more efficient by a bit over 10%. Earth shattering, no. But come on, the N52 is flat out not going to provide better fuel economy.

edit: To be unscientific. My proposed reasoning for the N20 not impressing with it's 5-60 time?

Torque.

With the 6mt and all that tq available so low, I get quite a bit of wheelspin in 1st gear, a solid spin into 2nd, and even flash my traction control light sometimes on an aggressive 2-3 shift. The N20 is in more need of traction, more need of a proper LSD than the N52. So the N52 has an easier time of putting power down and going from lower speeds. But as the 0-100 and top gears numbers show you, when traction(and managing the N20's torque) is out of the way, it is substantially faster.

While this is not scientific, it is a decent hypothesis. I have about 300 passes in the 1/4 in a variety of cars thanks to bracket racing. I was a stickler for 60ft times and traction/planting power.

dtc100 commented: December 24, 2012, 12:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Full power doesn't happen before early 5000rpms.

I was referring to near peak torque at below 2k RPM, which is what most people can feel from stoplight to stoplight, especially if they are not used to rev the engine up to 5k.

With the N52, driving really only starts when the rev has reached above 3k. Most people don't do that, so the N20 and turbo definitely work for them in that regard.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 24, 2012, 12:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I was referring to near peak torque at below 2k RPM, which is what most people can feel from stoplight to stoplight, especially if they are not used to rev the engine up to 5k.

With the N52, driving really only starts when the rev has reached above 3k. Most people don't do that, so the N20 and turbo definitely work for them in that regard.

I think BMW quotes peak tq for the N20 at 1250rpms, or 50 rpms more than the N55.

The N52 s I have driven do feel smoother as it approaches redline. But they give up quite a bit of tq off the line and mid-range surge compared to the N20.

Saintor commented: December 24, 2012, 5:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I've owned both cars.

The F30 is just flat out faster.

BJ

Not as per real-life data. Turbo-feel just fools you.

Anyway, say thanks to the shorter ratio ZF 8-speed for your feeling as initial acceleration, because overall hard facts states that the F30 328i is not significantly quicker than the E90 328i. Same ball park at best.

Here in this F30 328i automatic comparo over 300 miles, C&D observed only 21mpg, again much worse than what they observed in any I6 E9X (except the obese convertible). When you push those little forced-induction engines, you get worse fuel economy than expected. It is absolutely hilarious that the N20 Step certified EPA figures are no better than the N55.

And factor in the engine note that was lost in the transition, the N20 is a blow against 3-series virtues. Old M54 and early 2006 N52 were feeling so much better.

Saintor commented: December 24, 2012, 5:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I was referring to near peak torque at below 2k RPM, which is what most people can feel from stoplight to stoplight, especially if they are not used to rev the engine up to 5k.

With the N52, driving really only starts when the rev has reached above 3k. Most people don't do that, so the N20 and turbo definitely work for them in that regard.

Power is what matters most at any speed. Torque is for tractors. In any given gear, you will get maximum trust at peak power, not peak torque.

And I am not saying that everyone needs the best acceleration. The current exchange is about choices in engine technology.

Donjhen commented: December 24, 2012, 6:11 pm

I have a 2011 335d. Prior to that I had a 2006 330i. I love the power/economy of the 335d. It's a pretty unique combination of power and economy. I purchased the car used with about 8,000 miles.

F30's were available but I didn't feel drawn to them. Like others have stated - 80% similar.

But when the 4 series comes out, with an inevitable engine change shortly thereafter, I know I'll reconsider. But for now, very happy with my choice.

dtc100 commented: December 24, 2012, 6:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Power is what matters most at any speed. Torque is for tractors. In any given gear, you will get maximum trust at peak power, not peak torque.

And I am not saying that everyone needs the best acceleration. The current exchange is about choices in engine technology.

Low end torque definitely gives you a sense of acceleration off the line, when rev is still low. Since most people keep the rev low in street driving, the N20 provide a sense of power over N52.

I am not saying you are wrong, we like to keep our revs high, most people don't.

jdong commented: December 24, 2012, 6:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Low end torque definitely gives you a sense of acceleration off the line, when rev is still low. Since most people keep the rev low in street driving, the N20 provide a sense of power over N52.

I am not saying you are wrong, we like to keep our revs high, most people don't.

This is a silly argument to be having. Higher low end torque corresponds to higher low-end power, so both of you are right.

An engine with a disproportionate amount of lower end torque feels so great at the low end that it misleads you into thinking you've got more power than you do. Hence, once you take it on the highway and open the throttle, there's the sensation of it "losing steam" at some point.

The sense of power is something that can be changed by throttle mapping and transmission shift points (in an automatic). When the engine doesn't produce enough torque at the low end, you better hope that your automatic transmission is willing to aggressively kick down when it seems like the driver wants more power.

EDIT: I have to say though, after driving a turbo-4 for 2 years, the thing I like the least about them is the brief turbo "lag" that is a result of cruising at low RPMs and then suddenly flooring it. If you catch the engine off guard, it might take a second or two for full thrust to kick in. Otherwise, it comes nearly instantaneously. That lack of consistency has always bugged me, and when I test drove the 328i I felt a similar effect, though it's far less pronounced compared to the Audi 2.0T.

dtc100 commented: December 24, 2012, 7:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdong

This is a silly argument to be having. Higher low end torque corresponds to higher low-end power, so both of you are right.

When I talk about power, I think of horsepower, not torque. In that sense, power does not correspond to torque in a turbo engine with peak torque at low end, when horsepower is still low. Since most people drive in that low end power band, power can mean very different things.

N20 feels more powerful at low RPM than N52, N52 feels the best at high RPM or WOT.

jdong commented: December 24, 2012, 7:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

When I talk about power, I think of horsepower, not torque. In that sense, power does not correspond to torque in a turbo engine with peak torque at low end, when horsepower is still low. Since most people drive in that low end power band, power can mean very different things.

Power (horsepower) is a function of torque and speed. A motor with more torque at a given speed also has more power at that speed.

dtc100 commented: December 24, 2012, 7:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdong

Power (horsepower) is a function of torque and speed. A motor with more torque at a given speed also has more power at that speed.

Which is why if you are used to high revving, you don't feel the N52 less powerful, because its power peaks at higher band and stays there all the way to redline. The N20 reaches peak power much sooner, but power also drops off sooner. For those who don't rev engine high, it does not matter.

Again, N52 feels quite powerful if you like to rev and keep it high, shifting gears to maintain the rev between 4k to 6k, it is plenty fast, but more importantly, smooth while you are at it, which encourages you to rev. This is what made the BMW N/A I6 attractive. A tradition that is no longer.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 24, 2012, 8:13 pm

I am going to skip some of the silly things I saw.

The old saying was hp sells cars but torque wins races.

In the old days you had an imbalance of high tq low hp cars. The N20 is not one of them.

Drive on the highway in 6th at 70mph with an n20 and an n52 amd then floor it. Big difference.

My roadster has 100hp more than tq. Its nice and all, but Dropping from 5th to 3rd is nice compared to tipping into 5th. If it was a turbo like the n20 no need for a downship.

dtc100 commented: December 24, 2012, 8:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I am going to skip some of the silly things I saw.

The old saying was hp sells cars but torque wins races.

In the old days you had an imbalance of high tq low hp cars. The N20 is not one of them.

Drive on the highway in 6th at 70mph with an n20 and an n52 amd then floor it. Big difference.

My roadster has 100hp more than tq. Its nice and all, but Dropping from 5th to 3rd is nice compared to tipping into 5th. If it was a turbo like the n20 no need for a downship.

The trade off of losing the N/A I6 is, there is no more smooth high revving for us. Of course with N20, high revving is not necessary. But still, a loss is a loss.

Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.

Michael Schott commented: December 24, 2012, 9:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The trade off of losing the N/A I6 is, there is no more smooth high revving for us. Of course with N20, high revving is not necessary. But still, a loss is a loss.

Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.

Reviews I've read say the N20 loves to rev to redline.

jdong commented: December 24, 2012, 9:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Reviews I've read say the N20 loves to rev to redline.

Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.

Michael Schott commented: December 24, 2012, 9:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdong

Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.

Because its fun? No one should be really driving for maximum accelleration on the street anyway. My N54 is alo past its peak at 7k but its a blast to go there.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 24, 2012, 9:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The trade off of losing the N/A I6 is, there is no more smooth high revving for us. Of course with N20, high revving is not necessary. But still, a loss is a loss.

Although I don't understand what is the negative of dropping a gear at highway speed for passing. I thought it was the fun part.

It's not. But there is large appeal to having a wave of tq without the need to downshift.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdong

Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.

It might not be so simple.

Ok, so power may fall off faster in an N20. But what if the N20 has enough of a power advantage over the N52 that it's fall off at redline equals the N52 at it's peak/

Basically if you study both cars on the same dyno at the same day, you may find that between 0-7000rpms, at NO point does an N52 make more power than an N20.

I am not SURE that's the case, but before we get caughtup in power fall-off, it's something to consider.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 24, 2012, 9:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Because its fun? No one should be really driving for maximum accelleration on the street anyway. My N54 is alo past its peak at 7k but its a blast to go there.

I short shift and have even raced people shifting at 3500-4000 in the Roadster. If I red-lined in the first three gears I would not have a license. I hit my 1-2 at 6800 and find I have hit 60 in about 4 seconds from a dig. I have to settle down after that.

It's nice to hop in the 3 the rest of the week and NOT need to downshift and ride the tq.

dtc100 commented: December 25, 2012, 9:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I short shift and have even raced people shifting at 3500-4000 in the Roadster. If I red-lined in the first three gears I would not have a license. I hit my 1-2 at 6800 and find I have hit 60 in about 4 seconds from a dig. I have to settle down after that.

It's nice to hop in the 3 the rest of the week and NOT need to downshift and ride the tq.

Speaking of one who has a roadster to fix your aggression, and use the F30 as a daily commuter. You have unintentionally compared it with a Camry or Accord, both of which will do a better job at making your experience with the roadster more memorable.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 25, 2012, 12:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Speaking of one who has a roadster to fix your aggression, and use the F30 as a daily commuter. You have unintentionally compared it with a Camry or Accord, both of which will do a better job at making your experience with the roadster more memorable.

No thanks.

No forced induction manual trans setup offered.

Going from the Roadster to the 3, I don't feel sad. I would feel sad to get into a Camry.

Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.

It is all justified to hit the redline even if the power drops after the peak.

Here is why. The idea is that in the whole process of maximum acceleration, to keep the AVERAGE engine rpm as close as possible on the POWER PEAK.

Of course, it will never happen if you never pass the peak.

Best evidence are in CVT equipped cars. When you mash their throttle, they are programmed to keep the rpm on peak power.

shicobico commented: December 25, 2012, 2:25 pm

As far as "driving feel" and balance is concerned:

E30>E21>E46>E36>E90>F30. Ask anyone who has tracked these cars if they would rather take an E90 or even E46 over an E30 to the track. My suspicion is the answer would be no.

But this is a moot point, unless you're buying a track car. If you're looking for a daily driver, with multiple personalities and a good balance of performance, technology and design, I believe the F30 would be the winner hands down.

I missed my E46 the minute I stepped into the E90, but I can't say the same about the E90. I actually can't wait to move on to my F30. I still love my E90, but the F30 just does more stuff, better, with very few noticeable compromise. It suits my evolving needs.

If you think the 3 series has lost it's feel, boy, you should take a ride in the F10. Holy cow! And boy, is cow a fitting description here.

boltjaM3s commented: December 25, 2012, 3:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shicobico

As far as "driving feel" and balance is concerned:

E30>E21>E46>E36>E90>F30. Ask anyone who has tracked these cars if they would rather take an E90 or even E46 over an E30 to the track. My suspicion is the answer would be no.

But this is a moot point, unless you're buying a track car. If you're looking for a daily driver, with multiple personalities and a good balance of performance, technology and design, I believe the F30 would be the winner hands down.

I missed my E46 the minute I stepped into the E90, but I can't say the same about the E90. I actually can't wait to move on to my F30. I still love my E90, but the F30 just does more stuff, better, with very few noticeable compromise. It suits my evolving needs.

If you think the 3 series has lost it's feel, boy, you should take a ride in the F10. Holy cow! And boy, is cow a fitting description here.

Precisely.

This E90 vs. F30 "battle" is silly, especially when it comes to handling because the difference between the two is a 2%er at most. An E36 driver would have a seizure in an F30, throw his hands up in despair wondering what BMW has done to the 3 Series. An E90 driver gets into an F30 and says "oh, that feels a little different".

The F30 is a logical, mature progression from the E90. Neither the E90 nor the F30 are anything resembling an E36 or E46. Those that want to hold onto their E90's and skip the F30 can do so, but they're not like some E36 purists back in 2006 doing it for the "right" reasons if you will. E90 owners don't have those kind of performance differentiators to justify that decision.

BJ

boltjaM3s commented: December 25, 2012, 3:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

It is all justified to hit the redline even if the power drops after the peak.

Here is why. The idea is that in the whole process of maximum acceleration, to keep the AVERAGE engine rpm as close as possible on the POWER PEAK.

Of course, it will never happen if you never pass the peak.

Best evidence are in CVT equipped cars. When you mash their throttle, they are programmed to keep the rpm on peak power.

No one would hold onto an E90 over an F30 over the type of minutiae you are mentioning, and no one would purchase either an E90 or an F30 as a track car. BMW has moved on.

BJ

Saintor commented: December 25, 2012, 3:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No one would hold onto an E90 over an F30 over the type of minutiae you are mentioning, and no one would purchase either an E90 or an F30 as a track car. BMW has moved on.

BJ

It has nothing to do with track. It has everything to do with fun. The N20 is a dull engine, unfit for a 40-50K$ Bimmer and contributes nothing like a 184HP M54 did. That was a great experience. Now to get the same level of fun of entry-level 3-series of the past, you have to settle for no less than a 335i. +15K$C more here.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: December 25, 2012, 3:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

It has nothing to do with track. It has everything to do with fun. The N20 is a dull engine, unfit for a 40-50K$ Bimmer and contributes nothing like a 184HP M54 did. That was a great experience. Now to get the same level of fun of entry-level 3-series of the past, you have to settle for no less than a 335i. +15K$C more here.

The N20 is far from a dull engine. It's not the I6 that's buttery smooth and perfect, but it provides efficiency, all while boosting HP and TRQ numbers. It's also made the car city friendly. I'm an avid e9x fan because the car was just a bit more lively, and the F30 is a bit softer but some are just taking it too far. The N20 is a masterpiece in engineering.

This is coming from a guy who likes naturally aspirated, high revving engines.

boltjaM3s commented: December 25, 2012, 3:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

It has nothing to do with track. It has everything to do with fun. The N20 is a dull engine, unfit for a 40-50K$ Bimmer and contributes nothing like a 184HP M54 did. That was a great experience. Now to get the same level of fun of entry-level 3-series of the past, you have to settle for no less than a 335i. +15K$C more here.

Oh, so now you're going to lecture an N20 driver on what is or isn't "fun"? LOL.

Go back to the E90 forum. I'm sure they eat this stuff up over there. You can all tell each other how "fun" it is driving 6 year old luxury cars.

BJ

Saintor commented: December 25, 2012, 3:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Oh, so now you're going to lecture an N20 driver on what is or isn't "fun"? LOL.

Go back to the E90 forum. I'm sure they eat this stuff up over there. You can all tell each other how "fun" it is driving 6 year old luxury cars.

BJ

You know, the F30 isn't all about the 328i. Thanks God, the 335i saves it.

boltjaM3s commented: December 25, 2012, 4:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

You know, the F30 isn't all about the 328i. Thanks God, the 335i saves it.

There's another thread that debates the merits of the 328i and the 335i.

This thread is about the E90 vs. the F30.

All of us in F30's once owned E90's and now we're in F30's. Go figure. I know that those of you who hold onto your old cars are yearning for rationale for that decision but you're barking up the wrong tree.

You fall back on the old E46 argument about how they were holding onto a "classic" or a "car that is more to the BMW identity" than the E90. See, they had a point. You don't. The E90 and the F30 are the same damn car, one more modern than the other, that's it. Holding onto an E90 on the grounds that you prefer it is fine, but holding onto it on the grounds that its more of a "true purists" BMW like the E46 owners did, LOLZ, laughable.

BJ

Saintor commented: December 25, 2012, 4:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

The N20 is far from a dull engine. It's not the I6 that's buttery smooth and perfect, but it provides efficiency, all while boosting HP and TRQ numbers. It's also made the car city friendly. I'm an avid e9x fan because the car was just a bit more lively, and the F30 is a bit softer but some are just taking it too far. The N20 is a masterpiece in engineering.

Enlighten us why the N20 is a "masterpiece" when there are Asian V6 out there that makes more power and cost less annually in fuel, without direct injection of ZF 8-speed. Again, it is no quicker from idle than what it replaces (see 5-60mph from C&D to establish that).

Saintor commented: December 25, 2012, 4:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

You fall back on the old E46 argument about how they were holding onto a "classic" or a "car that is more to the BMW identity" than the E90. See, they had a point. You don't. The E90 and the F30 are the same damn car, one more modern than the other, that's it. Holding onto an E90 on the grounds that you prefer it is fine, but holding onto it on the grounds that its more of a "true purists" BMW like the E46 owners did, LOLZ, laughable.

BJ

Well there is more to it. You sound like if F30 = 328i. Wrong. I never condemned the F30 which is likely to be my next car as a 335i, only the N20 that is not a good fit for a 3-series, specially when you are used to better powetrains.

boltjaM3s commented: December 25, 2012, 4:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Well there is more to it. You sound like if F30 = 328i. Wrong. I never condemned the F30 which is likely to be my next car as a 335i, only the N20 that is not a good fit for a 3-series, specially when you are used to better powetrains.

You don't own an E90 328i nor an F30 328i. I do.

The N20 is a great engine, makes the new F30 328i a much more fun and enthusiastic experience than I ever had in either of my two E90 328i's. You want to debate the 335i's you go right ahead, but for the 328i's there is no contest.

BJ

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: December 25, 2012, 5:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Enlighten us why the N20 is a "masterpiece" when there are Asian V6 out there that makes more power and cost less annually in fuel, without direct injection of ZF 8-speed. Again, it is no quicker from idle than what it replaces (see 5-60mph from C&D to establish that).

It's a masterpiece because BMW is able to pull off the 328i being quicker and more efficient, at the same time. Compare that 2.0 turbo 4 to say the one in the ATS. The BMW 4 is simply put an engineering marvel for the reason that BMW was able to cut off 2 cylinders and from the previous gen 3 series and it STILL keeps pace with the old I6 that it replaces. That's the point you're not seeing. I hate how it sounds like a diesel, but that's another topic all together.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 25, 2012, 5:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Enlighten us why the N20 is a "masterpiece" when there are Asian V6 out there that makes more power and cost less annually in fuel, without direct injection of ZF 8-speed. Again, it is no quicker from idle than what it replaces (see 5-60mph from C&D to establish that).

You keep repeating yourself yet when I gave all the examples of your failed logic in reply to your examples you skipped over all the nearly irrefutable information I provided. I dispelled your weak 5-60mph advantage and showed you the muti second advantage of the N20 in 0-100 and 3-50-50-70 top gear acceleration.

Your 184hp straight 6 is a dog, it is smooth. I give you that. It does make nice induction sounds. I give you that. It's called being impartial. BUT, just as it is a deal breaker for some to lose out on those things, it's a deal breaker for me and others to have such a low powered base engine in the 328. In the past, the 328 was something I let my wife drive, and let's face it many base 3's from before, today and the future, those are who is driving them.

Instead, the N20 which I showed you FACTUALLY with your own numbers is SECONDS faster in meaningful measurements, and EPA MPG testing, or more realistic and accurate testing(or members who have had N52s and now have N20's), and the fact is you should know that factory forced induction has a lot of room for improved performance while the N52 had next to nothing. That appeals to plenty of people like me. My car will have an exhaust, tune, downpipe and intercooler and net 300+whp while keeping the 30+ MPG I regularly average. PLEASE PLEASE show me 300whp bolt on N52's with no forced induction where drivers indicate averaging 30+mpg.

Saintor commented: December 25, 2012, 6:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

You don't own an E90 328i nor an F30 328i. I do.

The N20 is a great engine, makes the new F30 328i a much more fun and enthusiastic experience than I ever had in either of my two E90 328i's.

BJ

But you just said that the 3-series is no more for car enthusiasts.

Saintor commented: December 25, 2012, 6:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You keep repeating yourself yet when I gave all the examples of your failed logic in reply to your examples you skipped over all the nearly irrefutable information I provided. I dispelled your weak 5-60mph advantage and showed you the muti second advantage of the N20 in 0-100 and 3-50-50-70 top gear acceleration.

Your 184hp straight 6 is a dog, it is smooth. I give you that. It does make nice induction sounds. I give you that. It's called being impartial. BUT, just as it is a deal breaker for some to lose out on those things, it's a deal breaker for me and others to have such a low powered base engine in the 328. In the past, the 328 was something I let my wife drive, and let's face it many base 3's from before, today and the future, those are who is driving them.

Instead, the N20 which I showed you FACTUALLY with your own numbers is SECONDS faster in meaningful measurements, and EPA MPG testing, or more realistic and accurate testing(or members who have had N52s and now have N20's), and the fact is you should know that factory forced induction has a lot of room for improved performance while the N52 had next to nothing. That appeals to plenty of people like me. My car will have an exhaust, tune, downpipe and intercooler and net 300+whp while keeping the 30+ MPG I regularly average. PLEASE PLEASE show me 300whp bolt on N52's with no forced induction where drivers indicate averaging 30+mpg.

My logic is just all fine. Yours clearly lives in fantasy land.

5-60mph is certainly a key feature. 0-60mph 0-100mph and 1/4 mile are irrelevant because people who perform them cheat/abuse the powertrains like mad. When was the last time you pre-rev'ed your engine at 4000rpm to launch on the street?....* there you go *.

If you bought that N20 to have more boost, well that is utterly ridiculous since the 335i will give you all of that and more. Once you have considered the same level of equipment including moonroof and xenon, a 335i M-Sport is only 3700$ over a 328i M-Sport. Too good to pass.

N52 is over, but competition with NA engines gets 300HP and >30mpg highway. Nobody in a gas 3-series gets 30+ mpg average without being always on highways, don't be a fool.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 25, 2012, 9:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

My logic is just all fine. Yours clearly lives in fantasy land.

5-60mph is certainly a key feature. 0-60mph 0-100mph and 1/4 mile are irrelevant because people who perform them cheat/abuse the powertrains like mad. When was the last time you pre-rev'ed your engine at 4000rpm to launch on the street?....* there you go *.

If you bought that N20 to have more boost, well that is utterly ridiculous since the 335i will give you all of that and more. Once you have considered the same level of equipment including moonroof and xenon, a 335i M-Sport is only 3700$ over a 328i M-Sport. Too good to pass.

N52 is over, but competition with NA engines gets 300HP and >30mpg highway. Nobody in a gas 3-series gets 30+ mpg average without being always on highways, don't be a fool.

You cannot be reasoned with. You get obsessed with a trivial figure like 5-65mph, which according to your source is two tenths apart. I explained why. The N20 makes a lot more torque which makes traction an issue much more so than the N52.

How is it ridiculous for me to make more boost with my N20? I got my car for a STEAL due to the missing Bluetooth, almost making my car a one of one. A $380 BMS tune makes figures that meet or exceed the 335. I have modded every car I have ever owned, it's what I do. If an 335 had the same missing Bluetooth and was offered to me at the same price as my N20, yeah-I would be a bit silly to chose the N20.

0-60, 0-100 and 1/4 mile are irrelevant, all classic indicators of performance and a cars capabilities, all things which show DISTINCT advantages to the N20, but you want us to hear you go over and over that the test of 5-65 showed an advantage for the N52? Do you not see how silly that sounds?

I have owned tons of cars, modified tons of cars, ****-DESIGNED CARS, raced cars, there are facts that you kind of like to skip over to skew whatever your agenda at the moment is, whether it's Camry and Accord V-6 is best, E90 is best, N20 is the worst. Simple things like TRAP speeds are the simplest indicator of a cars performance in a roll on type highway pull. It takes skill and traction out of the launch. The N20 traps at 99-100mph, miles faster than the N52. But wait, lets discount that and any figure you don't like and get hung up on Car and Driver which seems to be the only source who even measures 5-65, a test that does not favor the car with more torque that can struggle for traction.

Your 4000lb pig E93 which someone would not want to flog, that cars magazine tested MPG, that should be counted with clarity as the same as another test years later with how a manual F30 sedan is driven?

I am the fool. Yeah. Sure.

We have a multi-page thread where OWNERS post MPGs averaged. I have no problem averaging 30mpg with traffic, lights, highway mix about 60/40, my speed average below 40.

But keep telling me, and other owners of our cars that we are wrong. I am the one in fantasy land...sure. Except I am the one who has first hand experience in things before I open my mouth, you seem to do a lot of talking(in this section) without much of anything substantial to back it up. You remind me of arguments we had as teenagers of Camaro vs Mustang before having licenses, working on our own cars and having the balls to actually race/head to the strip.

kpgray commented: December 26, 2012, 10:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

........We have a multi-page thread where OWNERS post MPGs averaged. I have no problem averaging 30mpg with traffic, lights, highway mix about 60/40, my speed average below 40.......

It was time for a new ride and I drove the E92 coupe and compared to the F30 last spring. I found the F30 far superior in every respect. As for the N20 to the non-turbo I6, the N20 felt better in every respect except the exhaust note. I test drove the F30 335i and did not find the difference justified the $3700 premium. The 328 felt lighter, went in & out of the curves much more level. Also, despite the two cars mileage ratings looking the same on the dealer sticker, my AWD is getting 34 MPG with 60/40 highway/city driving in comfort mode! I have not seen anywhere close on a 335 unless they are in cruise control! That is 20% higher than a E92 with better performance...Amazing!

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 11:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpgray

It was time for a new ride and I drove the E92 coupe and compared to the F30 last spring. I found the F30 far superior in every respect. As for the N20 to the non-turbo I6, the N20 felt better in every respect except the exhaust note. I test drove the F30 335i and did not find the difference justified the $3700 premium. The 328 felt lighter, went in & out of the curves much more level. Also, despite the two cars mileage ratings looking the same on the dealer sticker, my AWD is getting 34 MPG with 60/40 highway/city driving in comfort mode! I have not seen anywhere close on a 335 unless they are in cruise control! That is 20% higher than a E92 with better performance...Amazing!

Your real life experience has no validity here to some of the loud mouths who want to live by hearsay and biased opinions.

The N20, it does not have a bad exhaust note...it has none!

I am counting the days till I have the production catback on my car as the prototype added so much to the driving experience of the N20. It is like having silent sex, sure good things are happening, but without the reassuring soundtrack to back it up-it's just odd.

Saintor commented: December 26, 2012, 12:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You cannot be reasoned with. You get obsessed with a trivial figure like 5-65mph, which according to your source is two tenths apart. I explained why. The N20 makes a lot more torque which makes traction an issue much more so than the N20.

Tell me that you were joking. Otherwise, that is just plain retard.

Again, why don't you answer the question. When was the last time that you pre-rev'ed your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best 0-60mph 0-100mph 0-... you name it?

This is why The 5-60mph is definitely the best figure since it can't be cheated. This is also where the N20 low-torque thing should tremendously and failed to do so. It is common among all FI small displacement engines. By the time that lag is over, there are already at 3000+rpm and didn't deliver the theorical trust at low RPM. What you see on charts are relatively static measurements, varying engine speed slowly. It makes all the difference in the world.

Quote:

I am the fool. Yeah. Sure.

With the above "explanation" that you provided, yes it is a done deal. 26mpg for 55% city as reported by EPA is not bad, but cars like V6 271HP Accord and V6 268HP Camry gets 25mpg and since they run on regular, costs less to operate with more power.

Quote:

We have a multi-page thread where OWNERS post MPGs averaged. I have no problem averaging 30mpg with traffic, lights, highway mix about 60/40, my speed average below 40.

You are expressing again that you don't know what you are talking about. Fantasy land, here you go.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 12:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Tell me that you were joking. Otherwise, that is just plain retard.

Again, why don't you answer the question. When was the last time that you pre-rev'ed your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best 0-60mph 0-100mph 0-... you name it?

This is why The 5-60mph is definitely the best figure since it can't be cheated. This is also where the N20 low-torque thing should tremendously and failed to do so. It is common among all FI small displacement engines. By the time that lag is over, there are already at 3000+rpm and didn't deliver the theorical trust at low RPM. What you see on charts are relatively static measurements, varying engine speed slowly. It makes all the difference in the world.

With the above "explanation" that you provided, yes it is a done deal. 26mpg for 55% city as reported by EPA is not bad, but cars like V6 271HP Accord and V6 268HP Camry gets 25mpg and since they run on regular, costs less to operate with more power.

You are expressing again that you don't know what you are talking about. Fantasy land, here you go.

I can answer questions...can you?

I will admit that I like 5-65 in quite a few instances, like AWD cars like the WRX. They got amazing 0-60 times in magazines, but again with 5-6k clutch dumps. I would race these cars on the street where owners would do soft launches and I would kill them.

But you want to discount 0-60 and 0-100, calling it abusive. Fine, your example is so great, 5-65. But you want to ignore the fact that it is still traction dependent the higher you go in power level?

So how come you have yet to answer ME on the 30-50 and 50-70 passing figures?

Those tests show an engines flexibility, show how important torque is. Those tests have no driveline abuse. Those tests are super relevant in every day driving. Those tests in links you provided, ones which show 1-2 tenth favor your N52, show 1-2 second improvements for the N20.

To answer your question...I soft launch on the street. I am nice to clutches and get 100k out of them or more. So when I do get frisky on the street I rarely do a real hard launch as I have high torque cars...the S52 needs about 1000-1500rpm launch to roast the tires just enough to get me where I need to be once they hook. The N20, so far I have not launched over 2500rpms.

You are simply trying too hard. You want to fight the fight of F30 vs E90, of N52 vs N20, but then you want to muddy the waters with this Camry and Accord V-6 crap. Go buy your automatic V-6 mid size sedan. Please. Go post on their forums about how great that car is and how you saved money versus buying a new 3 series. You just seem so desperate to tell OWNERS they bought the wrong car. It just sounds ridiculous.

I am delusional still with MY and others real world MPG's with the F30? I don't know what I am talking about? Says who-you? You are the most biased person, seemingly lacking real world experience, sounding like a teenager with a riced out slow car-that is how you come across in this section. If I am the one in fantasyland, and you are in some better realm, I would stay put and not want to visit where ever you are.

Here are shots of my screen(I did calculations and found my car was computing within about 2% of actual math).
This is 60% Highway, kept in Sport, plenty of WOT burts:
This is 70% highway, Comfort, no WOT, fair bit of 40mph backroads but few traffic lights:

I am glad I have a camera in fantasyland!

Guy above me with X-drive says he is averaging 34 in COMFORT. He must be in fantasyland too!

kpgray commented: December 26, 2012, 1:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

........I am glad I have a camera in fantasyland!

Guy above me with X-drive says he is averaging 34 in COMFORT. He must be in fantasyland too!

I am enjoying fantasyland @ 34 MPG

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 1:28 pm

A little note, magazine testing MPG.

Not much value to it, sorry.

It's not their car. They admit to driving it like they stole it. I have yet to confirm if they pay for the gas they put in or if that is paid for/reimbursed.

I do not hypermile, I do not drive like a Grandpa. But on my commute to work which is 18 miles, stop and go traffic for 10% of it, about 10 traffic lights, and then 10-12 miles of 80mph on the highway, I hit 39-40mpg everyday by the time I pull into work. That is relate-able to people, that described a lot of people's commutes.

Most times I have it in Sport and still always manage 30+.

This is not fantasy. This is called driving in the real world. Working for a magazine and grabbing keys to a different car day after day, driving it like a rental car and getting paid to do it...THAT is a fantasy!

Saintor commented: December 26, 2012, 4:06 pm

30+ mpg "average" is clearly fantasy land from people who don't what they are talking about. Wrong methodology and just lack of skills. I can report 6.8L/100km in my car on one ride on highway, but that's doesn't mean overall average by any stretch.

fuelly.com reports 26.3mpg from 17 2012-2013 328i owners. Now THAT makes sense and it is not bad. After all, C&D got 23mpg and 21mpg in two occasions on 300+ miles rides.

However the same result could have been reached with direct injection on the I6. Mercedes and Porsche gained 15% on NA V6 and H6 after they updated them with direct injection. 4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.

Say hello to your imaginary friends.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 4:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

30+ mpg "average" is clearly fantasy land from people who don't what they are talking about. Wrong methodology and just lack of skills. I can report 6.8L/100km in my car on one ride on highway, but that's doesn't mean overall average by any stretch.

fuelly.com reports 26.3mpg from 17 2012-2013 328i owners. Now THAT makes sense and it is not bad. After all, C&D got 23mpg and 21mpg in two occasions on 300+ miles rides.

However the same result could have been reached with direct injection on the I6. Mercedes and Porsche gained 15% on NA V6 and H6 after they updated them with direct injection. 4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.

Say hello to your imaginary friends.

Fuelly.com from what I remember is more long term. 26.3mpg sounds reasonable. My 30+ averages are per tank and can vary. My last tank was 28.9. Nothing fantasyland about that.

Again, I do not care about C&D and the 21mpg, you ignored all that I stated about people being paid to thrash on cars they do not own. 21mpg vs 26.3 from your Fuelly example, that is over a 20% discrepancy.

There are plenty of people who have switched from e90 to f30 328's, they report living with better mileage. So what, all these people are making it up?

There you go, lets keep on muddying up your argument, lets talk about the RDX, let's bring more lame side steps to the discussion. The 1st gen RDX was known to be a gas guzzler, same thing with Mazdas CX-7. EPA numbers and driver numbers all show this. It's not so much weight that makes it an issue, you are implying the F30 has some kind of weight penalty which it does not, not compared to the E90 and not it's competition.

If BMW skipped the N20 and instead put in a 3.0L direct injected 270hp NA 6 that got 34 on the highway, I still would have happily bought it. The only downside is the lack of upgrades for more power. I ditched my APR stage 2 CC for this car, one of the reasons was knowing the FI would be tuner friendly.

If I Paypal you $1, would you stop bringing up other random cars?

Compare the N20 F30 to the IS, C-Class, A4, ATS, G37, Volvo S60, you know the cars in it's class it's intended to keep up with? Show me how those cars romp the N20 in meaningful ways. I will listen, I promise.

Otherwise hearing you talk about lower fuel costs due to no premium required and Camrys and Accords makes me want to cry.

Saintor commented: December 26, 2012, 4:35 pm

Quote:

There are plenty of people who have switched from F30 to E90 328's, they report living with better mileage. So what, all these people are making it up?

Nobody is contesting this. Why are you even asking the question?

Quote:

If BMW skipped the N20 and instead put in a 3.0L direct injected 270hp NA 6 that got 34 on the highway, I still would have happily bought it.

Exactly - we agree. The N20 is a 2nd or even 3rd choice. The N53 was the engine to invest in; in a 330Xi, it got the same fuel economy as an Audi TT-S 270HP 2.0T, which was 400lbs lighter.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 4:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Nobody is contesting this. Why are you even asking the question?

YOU.

You tried citing examples and state that the N20 is not more fuel efficient in the real world because some magazine posted 21mpg in an f30 and 23 in an E93.

Do I need to dig up your own quotes?

So now you are going to bring up a lame argument, state the same thing more than once, get disproved, and then complain that the thing now disproved is common knowledge to everyone including you who kept saying the opposite?

You are becoming my second favorite poster after BJ. I take back calling you a troll ever. Trolls are rarely ever entertaining.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 5:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

.

4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.

This is not BMW.

This is the direction of the automobile.

Get used to it or just drive a decades old car for the rest of your life.

V-8 trucks...America!

-V-6's are now being embraced. First with Fords Ecoboost, now with the Ram and PentaStar. People pay attention to MPG figures now, even with bigger/heavier vehicles. CAFE standards are not letting up anytime soon. You also see the Ecoboost 2.0 in the Ford Edge, Taurus(Explorer too I think), 4000lb vehicles.

Midsize sedans, V-6=premium!

-I think it started with Hyundai. They ditched the V6 being offered which allowed platform design to be 4 cylinder specific which saved weight. The V6 take rate is always small on these cars, maybe 10-15%, willing to bet the 2.0T is 100% as strong if not stronger. More and more cars followed suit, the Malibu is now 4cyl+turbo only, the Fusion also.

Entry level Luxury, nothing luxurious about a 4 cylinder!

-Might have started with Audi and the B8 A4. It started with the 2.0T and the 3.2 3.2 was canned due to sales. Infiniti brought in a base engine, a lower output V6 and it barely lasted a year. The C class, when the redesign came, brought a 201hp SUB 2.0L 4. Sales seem to be pretty solid considering it's an old platform. The ATS brought with it an 2.0L 4 as well(lets ignore the 2.5L as it's fail city).

So in the proper segment that the 3 series competes in....

IS=out of date, base engine 2.5L V-6 is a dog
ATS=handling/steering aside, the 2.0T is not as smooth as the N20, makes about the same power though claims to have much more, and weights 50-100lbs more than the 328(low weight claim for the ATS is low optioned 2.5).
G37=This is the bang for the buck winner. The 2.5L was dropped. The G is old and the Q V-6 is known to be a bit thrashy and in some ways is faster than the N20, others not. The MPG advantage of the N20 is LARGE. But for a $299 lease, the G37 gives nearly 335 levels of performance to value shoppers
C250=The N20 is far more powerful and offers greater efficiency. The C350 BARELY equals the N20 in terms of performance. Sad.
A4=The Torque rich 2.0TSI is the best competing 4 cylinder in many ways. It is quite underrated just like the N20. The N20 still has a slight edge.
S60=Basically a FWD car with a odd 5 cylinder. Not quite competitive here.

So there you have it. BMW is out to make money and to be competitive. Fact is, the N20 F30 is VERY class competitive if not class leading.

So you can lament all you want. Fact is, this is where the industry is now and is going in the future. Even Jaguar now has the 2.0L 4 in the XF, and V8's replaced in the XJ with a 6. Even the A8 has downsized to a 6 for the base engine(just as the 7series did).

So who is in fantasyland now? This is the real world. Where car companies who want to make money and keep up with CAFE downsize their engines.

dtc100 commented: December 26, 2012, 5:12 pm

I agree they could have easily kept the N/A I6 and still achieved the mpg. The last 3.0 N/A I6s in the 2012 528s with 8spd, the EPA highway mpg was 32 I recall. That was for a much heavier car.

I think the decision to go 2.0L is for the global market, in Europe 2.0L is pretty much the displacement to have before fees to go up.

Let's stop calling each other names. Some of you make it hard to believe BMW's average driver's age is 50

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 5:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I agree they could have easily kept the N/A I6 and still achieved the mpg. The last 3.0 N/A I6s in the 2012 528s with 8spd, the EPA highway mpg was 32 I recall. That was for a much heavier car.

I think the decision to go 2.0L is for the global market, in Europe 2.0L is pretty much the displacement to have before fees to go up.

Let's stop calling each other names. Some of you make it hard to believe BMW's average driver's age is 50+

It's not just that.

If they make a certain number of a certain engine, it's economies of scale to put it in as many cars as they can.

BMW would not do this if it put them at a competitive disadvantage or seemed to buck a trend.

But fact is, this is what the competition has been doing for years, downsizing-which includes 4 cylinders. Fact is, out of the lot of entry level luxury cars, the N20 is about as good as it gets. Audi had years of nothing but praise for the 2.0TSI(the FSI before that) and wound up on Wards engines of the year list countless times. Now the N20 is just as good and better and what do you know, winds up on the same list.

Be thankful of my age, it helps bring the average down.

boltjaM3s commented: December 26, 2012, 7:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Let's stop calling each other names. Some of you make it hard to believe BMW's average driver's age is 50

Let it be known that the only actual F30 owner in this debate is in his 30's.

The rest of them don't even own F30's yet think they are experts because they have old E90's.

BJ

Chris90 commented: December 26, 2012, 8:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

We have a multi-page thread where OWNERS post MPGs averaged. I have no problem averaging 30mpg with traffic, lights, highway mix about 60/40, my speed average below 40.

This is frankly why I can't see buying an E90 328i now that the F30 is out. I get like 18-19 mpg in my commute in my loaner E90 328s, that blows, it's even worse than my ZHP which gets like 21-22 mpg on the same route. The entry-level 3 needed much better gas mileage than that, and that's why BMW went with the turbo four.

EPA ratings may not show the advantage but it seems like real world owners' results do.

bmw_or_audi commented: December 26, 2012, 8:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

A
The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s.

The numbers are out there. Even consumer reports confirms the F30 does better in 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

justinnum1 commented: December 26, 2012, 9:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

And I have no idea why people think that the 2012 328i performance is night and day difference with the 2011 328. This is flat-out wrong.

If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.

The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.

The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...

Barely any turbo lag>200lb of torque...pathetic lol

bmw_or_audi commented: December 26, 2012, 9:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

...comparo over 300 miles, C&D observed only 21mpg, again much worse than what they observed in any I6 E9X ...

C&D is a joke for such things. Consumer reports does test mpgs with precision instrumentation. The 328i posted the same exact numbers as a 335d. That's right. True highway cruising yielded 40mpg versus 33mpg for the 6-cyl 328i wagon.

The reason why small turbo engines are far more efficient is because when there is no turbo boost, such as when cruising on the highway, you get the gas mileage of a small engine. A 2.0T with the turbo not boosting has significantly less compression resistance than a 3.0L. It is as simple as that.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 9:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

The numbers are out there. Even consumer reports confirms the F30 does better in 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

Didn't you read his replies?

0-60 and 1/4 mile are abusive and should not be counted. Only Car and Drivers test of 5-65 matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinnum1

Barely any turbo lag>200lb of torque...pathetic lol

LOL.

No, somewhere on the rpms the N52 is making more power than the laggy low torque N20. Its on the tachometer when the car is parked with the ignition off.

bmw_or_audi commented: December 26, 2012, 9:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Power is what matters most at any speed. Torque is for tractors. In any given gear, you will get maximum trust at peak power, not peak torque.

Absolutely true. But the F30 328i has more peak power and a much fatter lower power curve than the 3.0L I6. So it wins at peak power and it wins even more convincingly at lower rpms, which is most relevant for daily driving.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 26, 2012, 9:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

C&D is a joke for such things. Consumer reports does test mpgs with precision instrumentation. The 328i posted the same exact numbers as a 335d. That's right. True highway cruising yielded 40mpg versus 33mpg for the 6-cyl 328i wagon.

The reason why small turbo engines are far more efficient is because when there is no turbo boost, such as when cruising on the highway, you get the gas mileage of a small engine. A 2.0T with the turbo not boosting has significantly less compression resistance than a 3.0L. It is as simple as that.

Consumer Reports must do it's testing in fantasyland too!

bmw_or_audi commented: December 26, 2012, 9:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

When I talk about power, I think of horsepower, not torque. In that sense, power does not correspond to torque in a turbo engine with peak torque at low end, when horsepower is still low. Since most people drive in that low end power band, power can mean very different things.

N20 feels more powerful at low RPM than N52, N52 feels the best at high RPM or WOT.

Power = torque * rotation engine speed.

You know one, then you know the other.

bmw_or_audi commented: December 26, 2012, 9:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdong

Seeing how the power drops by 10% past the peak, I don't know why you'd want to do that though.

Well, how much past peak power you want to go depends on where the next gear puts you. You always want to go a little past peak power rpm, but how much depends on the gearing.

bmw_or_audi commented: December 26, 2012, 9:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

It's a masterpiece because BMW is able to pull off the 328i being quicker and more efficient, at the same time. Compare that 2.0 turbo 4 to say the one in the ATS. The BMW 4 is simply put an engineering marvel for the reason that BMW was able to cut off 2 cylinders and from the previous gen 3 series and it...

OK, at this point I have to bring up Audi. They have been successfully doing this for quite some time now. Yes, peak power of the older Audi 2.0T is lower by 30Hp but torque is the same for most rpms. The BMW 2.0T produces more power because it maintains that flat torque all the way to 4800rpm whereas the Audi 2.0T starts dropping off at 4200rpm. For most driving, they will feel the same. The BMW engine though has higher boost and perhaps the twin scroll turbo can breath better at higher RPMs. But again, Audi has had a 260Hp version of the same 2.0T in the TT-S for quite some time. So let's make sure we are all on the same page here about "BMW miracles." (it is not an Audi miracle either, but they clearly bought and pushed the concept in this class of car before BMW).

The A4 was more than capable of standing up to the I6 in the 328i E90, even though most folks here who are now singing in praise of the BMW 2.0T probably used to piss on the "4-banger" A4 just a couple of years ago

bmw_or_audi commented: December 26, 2012, 9:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

My logic is just all fine. Yours clearly lives in fantasy land.

5-60mph is certainly a key feature. 0-60mph 0-100mph and 1/4 mile are irrelevant because people who perform them cheat/abuse the powertrains like mad.

Car magazines do abuse like mad indeed. But Consumer Reports does it "the way a regular driver would." That means launching from an IDLING engine and their tests still show the F30 328i to be faster.

bmw_or_audi commented: December 26, 2012, 9:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WaxComb

- Handling was worse in the base 328i (not an apples to apples comparison since the 328i didn't have at least sports suspension). I drove it on "The Snake" in Malibu and it definitely felt more out of control than my 335i.

It is worth noting that the base car comes with 17" tires while the lines come with 18". Now I won't claim whether this makes a difference for this specific car, since you reach a point of no more handling gains at some point. But for the A4, 17" versus 18" and wider makes a big difference. Consumer Reports has tested the 2009 and 2011 models and noted that handling was not as sharp. Somehow, they missed the fact that the 2011 car they tested had both narrower and smaller diameter tires, although the tire model was the same. They have a slalom like maneuver for which max speed dropped from an exceptional 56.5mph to a merely very good 53.5mph. I wouldn't be surprised if there was similarly a non-trivial drop in handling sharpness between base and line trims of the F30.

FYI: the luxury line F30 they tested made it to an excellent 54.5mph. Clearly, while it may be soft, it is no slouch, and I am sure it would post an even more impressive number with the sport suspension or the dynamic handling package.

NordicBob commented: December 27, 2012, 2:05 am

I've not owned an E90, but recently traded in my E46 330ci for a F30 335 MSport sedan. While I love my new F30, I feel that I lost a bit of the road feel of my E46. As someone else stated in an earlier reply,the F30 feels like a completely different car. Much bigger and refined, but a little less of that ultimate driving road feel was lost. Overall not a big thing, but I would suggest a serious test drive before you make a decision. Just my 2 cents.

Saintor commented: December 27, 2012, 4:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

Absolutely true. But the F30 328i has more peak power and a much fatter lower power curve than the 3.0L I6. So it wins at peak power and it wins even more convincingly at lower rpms, which is most relevant for daily driving.

Welll then it should perform better on 5-60mph and it doesn't. Torque ratings doesn't help here since I already explained that by the time the turbo is catching up its lag, the engine is already at +/-3000 rpm. That's why the N20 328 doesn't outperform the N52 328i in this best-for-daily-driving test.

Saintor commented: December 27, 2012, 4:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

C&D is a joke for such things. Consumer reports does test mpgs with precision instrumentation.

You tried citing examples and state that the N20 is not more fuel efficient in the real world because some magazine posted 21mpg in an f30 and 23 in an E93.

Do I need to dig up your own quotes?

Please do. *All of them*.

Instead of pulling something out of context, make that extra effort to read the whole thing, so we won't have to explain you again what you missed. Once for all, it is not 5-65 but 5-60.

I mentioned that the F30 328i avg 26 mpg as per EPA *IS* representative. Not your general 30+mpg nonsense. I mentioned that C&D got 21 and 23 in 2 different occasions, no better than the N52. The point is that under load and when heavily solicited, the 4-cyl. turbo fuel economy is no better than the NA 6. That's a fact.

It is absolutely wonderful that the 2011 N52 non-direct injected 240HP 528i get only 1mpg worse than a 400lbs lighter F30 328i.

And keep your troll accusations for your imaginary friends, d-bag.

dtc100 commented: December 27, 2012, 6:33 pm

I think if you drive all the time like you want to register a record mpg out of the car, you will be more successful with the N20 than with the N52.

But if you drive for maximum fun all the time, the two will be very close, except of course if trying to break your mpg record is your definition of driving fun.

boltjaM3s commented: December 27, 2012, 6:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Please do. *All of them*.

Instead of pulling something out of context, make that extra effort to read the whole thing, so we won't have to explain you again what you missed. Once for all, it is not 5-65 but 5-60.

I mentioned that the F30 328i avg 26 mpg as per EPA *IS* representative. Not your general 30+mpg nonsense. I mentioned that C&D got 21 and 23 in 2 different occasions, no better than the N52. The point is that under load and when heavily solicited, the 4-cyl. turbo fuel economy is no better than the NA 6. That's a fact.

It is absolutely wonderful that the 2011 N52 non-direct injected 240HP 528i get only 1mpg worse than a 400lbs lighter F30 328i.

And keep your troll accusations for your imaginary friends, d-bag.

No one cares about any of this nonsense, especially when its coming from someone who doesn't even own an F30 and doesn't appear to intend to buy one either.

You hate the new direction of BMW. You hate the F30. You're smart. We're stupid. We get it. Enjoy your other cars. Find another forum to troll.

BJ

SilverX3 commented: December 27, 2012, 7:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No one cares about any of this nonsense, especially when its coming from someone who doesn't even own an F30 and doesn't appear to intend to buy one either.

You hate the new direction of BMW. You hate the F30. You're smart. We're stupid. We get it. Enjoy your other cars. Find another forum to troll.

BJ

That's quite normal it takes awhile to accept new things I life....I still love e46 and e90 but start to warm up to the f30.... ESP. 328i sport pack

Will for the 3e90 for one next year bm should fix all the bugs

bmw_or_audi commented: December 27, 2012, 7:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Welll then it should perform better on 5-60mph and it doesn't. Torque ratings doesn't help here since I already explained that by the time the turbo is catching up its lag, the engine is already at +/-3000 rpm. That's why the N20 328 doesn't outperform the N52 328i in this best-for-daily-driving test.

I haven't seen the numbers you are referring to, but yes, turbo lag in such a test might show up. However, I don't consider 5-60mph relevant to normal driving, at least not to my driving. CR has a 45-65mph test, for which the F30 wins hands down, and that is far more relevant to me.

OK, I actually took the time to look up some numbers for 5-60mph. From C&D:

That's quite normal it takes awhile to accept new things I life....I still love e46 and e90 but start to warm up to the f30.... ESP. 328i sport pack

Will for the 3e90 for one next year bm should fix all the bugs

And that's fine. And you behave in a mature way in this forum and you participate intelligently and it's all good.

There are a few non-F30 owners who think its entertaining to troll our forum and tell us how stupid we are for sticking with BMW as they make their beloved 3 Series a bit bigger, a bit softer, and a bit more luxurious. They act like they're talking to a bunch of gullible people who didn't understand what they were getting into, like we were duped or something.

We get it. We're not stupid. We love our F30's. Others can hate it all they want. They should just take that hate over to the E9X forum where it's useful.

BJ

bmw_or_audi commented: December 27, 2012, 8:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Please do. *All of them*.

Instead of pulling something out of context, make that extra effort to read the whole thing, so we won't have to explain you again what you missed. Once for all, it is not 5-65 but 5-60.

OK, but show us where are the two numbers. The ones I found on C^D show the F30 doing the 5-60mph better, noticeably better.

Quote:

I mentioned that the F30 328i avg 26 mpg as per EPA *IS* representative. Not your general 30+mpg nonsense. I mentioned that C&D got 21 and 23 in 2 different occasions, no better than the N52. The point is that under load and when heavily solicited, the 4-cyl. turbo fuel economy is no better than the NA 6. That's a fact.

Of course. But that is completely irrelevant for normal driving. Heck, you could even tune a 2.0T (BMW or not) to drink much more fuel than a 3.0 I-6, mostly because you can make it generate much more power

Quote:

It is absolutely wonderful that the 2011 N52 non-direct injected 240HP 528i get only 1mpg worse than a 400lbs lighter F30 328i.

Yes, it is wonderful indeed. From C&D:

328i: EPA city/highway driving: 23/33 mpg

528i: EPA city/highway driving: 22/32 mpg

Wonderful until you notice the catch:

328i: C/D observed: 27 mpg

528i: C/D observed: 19 mpg

Ooops!!!!!

Then one wonders, was C&D's "observation" a fluke? So I checked out CR for its overall mileage:

328i: 28 mpg

530i: 20 mpg

Granted, the 530i was the 2004 model (still an N52, right?) with only a 6-speed auto. But this case is closed shut.

Saintor commented: December 27, 2012, 8:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

OK, but show us where are the two numbers. The ones I found on C^D show the F30 doing the 5-60mph better, noticeably better.

Of course. But that is completely irrelevant for normal driving. Heck, you could even tune a 2.0T (BMW or not) to drink much more fuel than a 3.0 I-6, mostly because you can make it generate much more power
.

I haven't seen the numbers you are referring to, but yes, turbo lag in such a test might show up. However, I don't consider 5-60mph relevant to normal driving, at least not to my driving. CR has a 45-65mph test, for which the F30 wins hands down, and that is far more relevant to me.

OK, I actually took the time to look up some numbers for 5-60mph. From C&D:

Fair enough. Your numbers are for the manual and the ones I found were for the autos (a far more common setup).

And why stop at 5-60mph? Let's also look at 30-50 and 50-70 in your links. Both are won by the F30 fairly decisively.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 27, 2012, 10:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

And I have no idea why people think that the 2012 328i performance is night and day difference with the 2011 328. This is flat-out wrong.

If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.

The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.

The I6 just needed direct injection and all this N20 nonsense would have been avoided...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Not as per real-life data. Turbo-feel just fools you.

Anyway, say thanks to the shorter ratio ZF 8-speed for your feeling as initial acceleration, because overall hard facts states that the F30 328i is not significantly quicker than the E90 328i. Same ball park at best.

Here in this F30 328i automatic comparo over 300 miles, C&D observed only 21mpg, again much worse than what they observed in any I6 E9X (except the obese convertible). When you push those little forced-induction engines, you get worse fuel economy than expected. It is absolutely hilarious that the N20 Step certified EPA figures are no better than the N55.

And factor in the engine note that was lost in the transition, the N20 is a blow against 3-series virtues. Old M54 and early 2006 N52 were feeling so much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Enlighten us why the N20 is a "masterpiece" when there are Asian V6 out there that makes more power and cost less annually in fuel, without direct injection of ZF 8-speed. Again, it is no quicker from idle than what it replaces (see 5-60mph from C&D to establish that).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

30+ mpg "average" is clearly fantasy land from people who don't what they are talking about. Wrong methodology and just lack of skills. I can report 6.8L/100km in my car on one ride on highway, but that's doesn't mean overall average by any stretch.

fuelly.com reports 26.3mpg from 17 2012-2013 328i owners. Now THAT makes sense and it is not bad. After all, C&D got 23mpg and 21mpg in two occasions on 300+ miles rides.

However the same result could have been reached with direct injection on the I6. Mercedes and Porsche gained 15% on NA V6 and H6 after they updated them with direct injection. 4-cylinder turbo are a joke in heavy vehicles and totally unfit in this class since they feel like a Civic, clearly a down grade in feel. Talk to Acura who dismissed their 4-cyl. turbo in their RDX, replaced it with a well-done V6 with improved power and fuel costs. THAT's the proper way to do it.

Say hello to your imaginary friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Please do. *All of them*.

Instead of pulling something out of context, make that extra effort to read the whole thing, so we won't have to explain you again what you missed. Once for all, it is not 5-65 but 5-60.

I mentioned that the F30 328i avg 26 mpg as per EPA *IS* representative. Not your general 30+mpg nonsense. I mentioned that C&D got 21 and 23 in 2 different occasions, no better than the N52. The point is that under load and when heavily solicited, the 4-cyl. turbo fuel economy is no better than the NA 6. That's a fact.

It is absolutely wonderful that the 2011 N52 non-direct injected 240HP 528i get only 1mpg worse than a 400lbs lighter F30 328i.

And keep your troll accusations for your imaginary friends, d-bag.

I am a D-bag now lol .

I quoted for you!

All you do is yap yap yap. You whip out figures and numbers that try and support whatever it is you want to cling to at that moment. When the other side has evidence to support something YOU do not agree with, you crap on why that evidence is no good.

You: N20 is not better than N52, look at the 5-60 times!
Me: Look at 0-60, 0-100 or 1/4
You: No, no, not fair, those are abusive tests and no one would do that on the street!
Me:OK, what about the second plus advantage of 30-50 and 50-70 top gear acceleration with the N20, those are real world tests that would not be abusive at all?
You: Crickets chirping

You: Some magazine had the N20 average 21 compared to another test with the N52 at 23.
Me: I as well as others have gotten as high as 30+
You: You made that up
Me: Pictures
You: Blah blah blah
Me: Magazine writers are paid to borrow cars, rag on them, not really the best source compared to owners, many of whom can compare to their previous E90s.
You.: Fantasy, all of yas. Fuelly.com has the '12-'13's at 26.3mpg
Me: Well, that's more long term than my tank average. 26.3mpg is 20+% greater than your first example of 21 with the magazine guys.
You: Crickets chirping

You seem to be doing a lot of talking, a lot of name calling, and I kind of let you have more and more things your way by lending some credibility to your sources and examples(Fuelly.com, 5-60 tests etc), but when there is a real logical argument you cannot side step in return you ignore it, you name call and come across as a far larger D-bag than I.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 27, 2012, 10:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

Fair enough. Your numbers are for the manual and the ones I found were for the autos (a far more common setup).

And why stop at 5-60mph? Let's also look at 30-50 and 50-70 in your links. Both are won by the F30 fairly decisively.

I have repeated the 30-50 and 50-70 argument using HIS sources numerous times already.

All he wants to talk about is 5-60, one test which the N20 is down 2 tenths in his examples. I have real world experience, being an idiot on the street and having tons of passes at the strip, higher tq cars suffer more from traction and the N20 has a lot more issues planting power mashing the pedal at 5mph than the N52. Does one also consider the tires? What if the 6.4 seconds in the N52 had the 255's out back and pretty much all tests of the N20 have 225's? Ever think of that Saintor?

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: December 27, 2012, 10:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

And that's fine. And you behave in a mature way in this forum and you participate intelligently and it's all good.

There are a few non-F30 owners who think its entertaining to troll our forum and tell us how stupid we are for sticking with BMW as they make their beloved 3 Series a bit bigger, a bit softer, and a bit more luxurious. They act like they're talking to a bunch of gullible people who didn't understand what they were getting into, like we were duped or something.

We get it. We're not stupid. We love our F30's. Others can hate it all they want. They should just take that hate over to the E9X forum where it's useful.

BJ

I'm personally not too fond of the direction BMW Is taking but, people gatta understand this is where the market is headed. The turbo 4 is a gem. I drive that car day in and day out and never get tired of how peppy and how balanced the car is.

In other news, I just ordered BMW Performance Black Kidney Grilles(Gloss) for my car, with a black M License plate to match!

Zeichen311 commented: December 27, 2012, 11:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

Granted, the 530i was the 2004 model (still an N52, right?) with only a 6-speed auto. But this case is closed shut.

No. That was the M54B30, an entirely different and less fuel-efficient engine.

boltjaM3s commented: December 28, 2012, 12:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

I'm personally not too fond of the direction BMW Is taking but, people gatta understand this is where the market is headed. The turbo 4 is a gem. I drive that car day in and day out and never get tired of how peppy and how balanced the car is.

In other news, I just ordered BMW Performance Black Kidney Grilles(Gloss) for my car, with a black M License plate to match!

Sweet!

Nice to see that you finally got the car of your dreams.

BJ

Orient330iNYC commented: December 28, 2012, 1:21 am

wow, i came in to comment on the original question. and its a full on flamefest

i'm coming from two E90 335i sedans, one 6MT RWD and the other 6AT AWD. I've test driven an N20 AWD 8AT and currently drive an N55 RWD 6MT

thoughts:
the suspension on both the 328 X drive (standard) and my car, DHP 335i is more composed and softer (on my car, in comfort mode) than both my E90s. softer in a good way, both of my old cars were pre suspension change, and had the "pothole explosion" shocks. the suspension on the F30 328i xdrive felt more composed than a 2011 328i XDrive loaner i had for almost two weeks two months ago (sandy stranded my car at the dealer as they had no power). I hated the crashy-bangy suspension on my 2010 along with the floaty, rolling feeling the non sport suspension gave. very happy with the F30 suspension in both comfort and sport mode.

steering on the F30 in non sport mode is lighter and a little weird feeling-- i was test driving an E90 two days ago for my brother, and for a moment thought the power steering on the car was broken-- i had gotten used to the power steering on my F30 which i had been driving in comfort mode as NYC pothole season has started in earnest. in sport mode it tightens up alot and feels very good, almost as good as the steering in my old E46 ( late 2001 build car with heavier steering rack).

engine - the N20 has alot more punch than the N52. it did feel a little less smooth. i went with the N55 as it seemed better suited to a 6MT. The N55 does not feel as powerful as my outgoing N54, but that car had the performance power kit and performance exhaust. the N55 does have a nice exhaust burble on decel. smooth power delivery.

interior- at first glance, the F30 interior looks a little cheaper, only because the dash material is a little shinier. from a tactile perspective, it feels better put together, more refined. BMW spent more time on the details of the interior. the center stack has a better layout, and the switch gear has a more solid feel. two examples i can think of are the iDrive controller and the cruise control buttons.
even the cupholders look like they were designed in (vs tacked on in the e9x)

Saintor commented: December 28, 2012, 9:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I have repeated the 30-50 and 50-70 argument using HIS sources numerous times already.

All he wants to talk about is 5-60, one test which the N20 is down 2 tenths in his examples. I have real world experience, being an idiot on the street and having tons of passes at the strip, higher tq cars suffer more from traction and the N20 has a lot more issues planting power mashing the pedal at 5mph than the N52. Does one also consider the tires? What if the 6.4 seconds in the N52 had the 255's out back and pretty much all tests of the N20 have 225's? Ever think of that Saintor?

Well, if you would have really thought about it, this is all to the N52's credit, not the contrary.

255 has more rolling resistance and 5-60mph test doesn't break traction in these cars. Funny.

5-60mph is the best for real world, 0-to-something are just for kids who love to brag about nothing. Again when did you pre-rev your RPM to 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? lol.

The problem with top gear acceleration 30-50 and 50-70 tests is about "top gear" part. All automatic cars perform great while the manual ones all look like pigs. Why? Because oh wonders, automatics *downshift*! (although they could do them in M-mode).

So this is a non-issue, because if you are too lazy to downshift and drive a manual like it should, then you need the automatic that will make up for your poor driver skills.

Quote:

The turbo 4 is a gem.

What does it do that the competition with old technology can't do?

Michael Schott commented: December 28, 2012, 10:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Well, if you would have really thought about it, this is all to the N52's credit, not the contrary.

255 has more rolling resistance and 5-60mph test doesn't break traction in these cars. Funny.

5-60mph is the best for real world, 0-to-something are just for kids who love to brag about nothing. Again when did you pre-rev your RPM to 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? lol.

The problem with top gear acceleration 30-50 and 50-70 tests is about "top gear" part. All automatic cars perform great while the manual ones all look like pigs. Why? Because oh wonders, automatics *downshift*! (although they could do them in M-mode).

So this is a non-issue, because if you are too lazy to downshift and drive a manual like it should, then you need the automatic that will make up for your poor driver skills.

What does it do that the competition with old technology can't do?

The bottom line which you refuse to acknowledge is that in everyday driving the N20 gets significantly better fuel economy and is faster. You can throw out all the stats you want but in the real world the N20 is a much more efficient engine.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 28, 2012, 11:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Well, if you would have really thought about it, this is all to the N52's credit, not the contrary.

255 has more rolling resistance and 5-60mph test doesn't break traction in these cars. Funny.

5-60mph is the best for real world, 0-to-something are just for kids who love to brag about nothing. Again when did you pre-rev your RPM to 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? lol.

The problem with top gear acceleration 30-50 and 50-70 tests is about "top gear" part. All automatic cars perform great while the manual ones all look like pigs. Why? Because oh wonders, automatics *downshift*! (although they could do them in M-mode).

So this is a non-issue, because if you are too lazy to downshift and drive a manual like it should, then you need the automatic that will make up for your poor driver skills.

What does it do that the competition with old technology can't do?

I answered you already, I typically never get more aggressive than a 2500 rpm launch on the street. Tracks are prepped, that is where a higher RPM launch is utilized.

I agree, the 5-60 is in the N52's favor as it does not have to worry as much about traction and I bet it is further aided by 255's in your test while all F30 tests seem to have 225's. So the car more in need of traction is crippled by having less grip. And you so desperately want to hold on to this two tenths advantage. You said, 255's do not break traction in these cars, N52's...EXACTLY. N20's do. I have the summer S001's, 255's, and not only do I get plenty of wheelspin in 1st, I also get a solid spin on the 1-2 shift and can chirp the 2-3 shift. That's called torque.

I am glad you are actually replying finally in regards to the 30-50 and 50-70 numbers. But again, since you want to try and discount them.

No one brought up automatics which skew top gear acceleration dramatically.

I used the numbers from YOUR examples which are both 6spd manuals. In those tests the N20 has a second or more advantage, in fact the N20 meets or beats the Infiniti G37 from your N52 test which was the fastest car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

The bottom line which you refuse to acknowledge is that in everyday driving the N20 gets significantly better fuel economy and is faster. You can throw out all the stats you want but in the real world the N20 is a much more efficient engine.

I have been saying this with specific counters for pages now. I doubt it's going to get though to him.

Golfster commented: December 28, 2012, 11:12 am

Seems a mute argument as the old engine is no longer available in the new car. A page in the chapter has turned. The new engine gets great ratings - progress.

sr5959 commented: December 28, 2012, 2:00 pm

I'm not in to all the stats, but after almost a year and 13k miles with my 328i I can honestly say the engine is the best part of the car, and my last car had one of the smoothest non-DI sixes around. Also, had E90 328 loaners on 2-3 occasions and they feel much, much slower than the N20.

dtc100 commented: December 28, 2012, 2:42 pm

The N52 was a gem, no substitute in this segment for a long time, BMW could have easily kept it, made it more powerful and more efficient with the 8spd. The high power version made 270 hp.

Unfortunately it did not happen. So if you are an N/A person, and refuse to go below 6, there are other brands available, and I am not talking about C350, ATS 3.6 or G37, but more higher end brands.

Sometimes you have to pay to play.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 28, 2012, 3:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The N52 was a gem, no substitute in this segment for a long time, BMW could have easily kept it, made it more powerful and more efficient with the 8spd. The high power version made 270 hp.

Unfortunately it did not happen. So if you are an N/A person, and refuse to go below 6, there are other brands available, and I am not talking about C350, ATS 3.6 or G37, but more higher end brands.

Sometimes you have to pay to play.

If BMW bucked the trend, I would have been all for an all aluminum 2.5L in-line six with a small twin scroll and direct injection, 265hp/270lbs tq, then have the N55 at 330/330.

Not only would I have been all for it, I would have paid $500-800 more than what I did for the N20.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: December 28, 2012, 10:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Sweet!

Nice to see that you finally got the car of your dreams.

BJ

Thanks, BJ.

boltjaM3s commented: December 28, 2012, 10:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5959

I'm not in to all the stats, but after almost a year and 13k miles with my 328i I can honestly say the engine is the best part of the car, and my last car had one of the smoothest non-DI sixes around. Also, had E90 328 loaners on 2-3 occasions and they feel much, much slower than the N20.

+1

The new engine is a rocket. It's unfathomable to some who believe in the naturally aspirated myth; ironically, it's BMW who made up the myth and it's BMW that smashed it. Some are just late to the party.

BJ

SilverX3 commented: December 29, 2012, 3:47 am

BMW also made up the Rwd myth and will smash it after 2015

bmw_or_audi commented: December 29, 2012, 5:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

+1

The new engine is a rocket. It's unfathomable to some who believe in the naturally aspirated myth; ironically, it's BMW who made up the myth and it's BMW that smashed it. Some are just late to the party.

BMW smashed it for its fans only. It's been smashed a long time ago for the rest of the world.

bmw_or_audi commented: December 29, 2012, 5:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

If BMW bucked the trend, I would have been all for an all aluminum 2.5L in-line six with a small twin scroll and direct injection, 265hp/270lbs tq, then have the N55 at 330/330.

Not only would I have been all for it, I would have paid $500-800 more than what I did for the N20.

A 2.5L I-6 could be easily made to pump 300/300 all the while being silky smooth. The Audi 2.5L I-5 turbo cranks out 360/343. But you probably would have to pay more than $500-800 over the N20.

Saintor commented: December 29, 2012, 9:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

If BMW bucked the trend, I would have been all for an all aluminum 2.5L in-line six with a small twin scroll and direct injection, 265hp/270lbs tq, then have the N55 at 330/330.

Not only would I have been all for it, I would have paid $500-800 more than what I did for the N20.

We are making some progress here.

I have a 2.5L and there is no point over a 3.0L. In Europe, BMW finally dismissed their 2.5L in the 2008+(?) Euro 325i E90 and it was updated with a 3.0L.

Their direct injected N53 NA 3.0L had a already 272HP and the fuel economy of an Audi 2.0T. BMW would have needed a different DI system compatible with North American gas, like their competition does. I would avoid force induction - not needed anyway. A Mercedes exec. declared that their 1.8T was more expensive to build than their NA V6 - I believe him.

What was lost in the process of going with the N20 is engine temper. I don't like the stock N52 so much actually, I preferred the M54 that was the real inspiration with its deep growl, which clearly expressed B-M-W, like a N54/55 335i does.

I am the one in fantasyland and you are in the past and want something BMW simply isnt doing.

Maybe you too are here with us in fantasyland and just don't. Know it.

dtc100 commented: December 29, 2012, 12:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

What was lost in the process of going with the N20 is engine temper. I don't like the stock N52 so much actually, I preferred the M54 that was the real inspiration with its deep growl, which clearly expressed B-M-W, like a N54/55 335i does.

Both. The M54 was almost symphonic--induction, valvetrain and exhaust all making distinct and discernible contributions to the overall tone. Driving one hard was a treat for the ears in a way the N52, N54 and even N55 could never quite match.

kpgray commented: December 29, 2012, 1:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

If BMW bucked the trend, I would have been all for an all aluminum 2.5L in-line six with a small twin scroll and direct injection, 265hp/270lbs tq, then have the N55 at 330/330.

Not only would I have been all for it, I would have paid $500-800 more than what I did for the N20.

BMW is already the highest cost between the Cadillac ATS, Audi A4 or MB C250. They increased the size of the 3 and the lighter 4 seems a good way to keep the car at the 3400 lbs weight and 50/50 balance and prevent the higher cost. But if they offered a performance option for the lighter all aluminum 6 providing the feel of the 328 with the power closer to the 335, kind of like the older small block compacts in the 60s (Boss Mustang 302, Chevy Camaro DZ 302), they were high reving small engines with close ratio manual trans and high rear gears. The much lighter engine weight and less clutch pressure made them a joy to drive compared to the heavyer big block versions of the same car. By the way "Jamesonsviggen", did you have a Saab Viggen? That was my introduction to a 4-cylinder performance car.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 29, 2012, 3:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpgray

BMW is already the highest cost between the Cadillac ATS, Audi A4 or MB C250. They increased the size of the 3 and the lighter 4 seems a good way to keep the car at the 3400 lbs weight and 50/50 balance and prevent the higher cost. But if they offered a performance option for the lighter all aluminum 6 providing the feel of the 328 with the power closer to the 335, kind of like the older small block compacts in the 60s (Boss Mustang 302, Chevy Camaro DZ 302), they were high reving small engines with close ratio manual trans and high rear gears. The much lighter engine weight and less clutch pressure made them a joy to drive compared to the heavyer big block versions of the same car. By the way "Jamesonsviggen", did you have a Saab Viggen? That was my introduction to a 4-cylinder performance car.

Yes, I had a lightning blue'99 that I modified quite a but and wound up very well known in the Saab community. I sold it to snag my Roadster. Once I had a new daily, I could enjoy a less practical car.

kpgray commented: December 29, 2012, 5:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Yes, I had a lightning blue'99 that I modified quite a but and wound up very well known in the Saab community. I sold it to snag my Roadster. Once I had a new daily, I could enjoy a less practical car.

The Lightening Blue was my Favorite color for the Saab Viggen. Had a friend a few years back with a Monte Carlo Yellow Viggen Roadster. He let me drive it a few times, I had never considered a FWD car as fun... until I drove that Viggen! I think the 2.2 liter motor was rated at 240 HP (same as the new BMW N20). I owned a 1999 Saab and the car was the best 2 wheel drive vehicle I ever had in the snow. First car I ever owned with a turbo and it was my first European car. Good thing it was easy to work on as it seemed to be in constant need of it. I think you made a good choice in the E36/7 M roadster as a swap, drove one and it is certainly a better balanced car, more fun than a Saab with less headaches and stronger wheel rims too!

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 29, 2012, 9:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpgray

The Lightening Blue was my Favorite color for the Saab Viggen. Had a friend a few years back with a Monte Carlo Yellow Viggen Roadster. He let me drive it a few times, I had never considered a FWD car as fun... until I drove that Viggen! I think the 2.2 liter motor was rated at 240 HP (same as the new BMW N20). I owned a 1999 Saab and the car was the best 2 wheel drive vehicle I ever had in the snow. First car I ever owned with a turbo and it was my first European car. Good thing it was easy to work on as it seemed to be in constant need of it. I think you made a good choice in the E36/7 M roadster as a swap, drove one and it is certainly a better balanced car, more fun than a Saab with less headaches and stronger wheel rims too!

The Viggen was 225hp crank, I put down 220 stock.

I tuned it, did the suspension and rebuilt the trans with an LSD. It made 320lbs of tq to the wheels and could do a burn out with both wheels from a second gear roll. I had a spread in European Car magazine with it.

But it was not a sports car. A sedan allowed me to buy a sports car. The e36/7 with the blower really hits all the key points for me.

But I always have a Saab in the stable owning one or more for 15 years. I have a tuned awd'11 9-3 for my wife and a 6mt wagon for my father.

Saintor commented: December 30, 2012, 9:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

How is that making progress?

I basically made a hypothetical wish.

I am the one in fantasyland and you are in the past and want something BMW simply isnt doing.

Maybe you too are here with us in fantasyland and just don't. Know it.

No fantasyland is stating that 30mpg combined is typical for a N20, as you did. Which can be also confused with BS.

My version was also an "hypothetical wish", that competitors are doing BTW, so it is not fantasyland.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 30, 2012, 10:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

No fantasyland is stating that 30mpg combined is typical for a N20, as you did. Which can be also confused with BS.

My version was also an "hypothetical wish", that competitors are doing BTW, so it is not fantasyland.

We have real world experience at 30+, threads dedicated to it.

It is more realistic an experience than YOUR sticking by magazine testing which nets low numbers from people paid to thrash on cars they do not own.

In the middle ground was your Fuelly.com example which is long term consumer posted and showed 20+ % higher than the magazines you were sticking with. It's not exactly perfect as I saw a '13 328 coupe with an L4. Does that mean it was really a sedan, or an E92 owner with a six who picked the wrong thing. It also was a much lower reported average which brought down the overall average for '12-13 cars.

Once again you want your source to be valid/irrefutable and someone else's source to be discounted. It's very annoying.

Saintor commented: December 30, 2012, 10:40 am

Quote:

We have real world experience at 30+, threads dedicated to it.

Yeah sure, remove those pink glasses or learn how to count. Unless you spent the vast majority of time on highway, this isn't happening.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 30, 2012, 11:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Yeah sure, remove those pink glasses or learn how to count. Unless you spent the vast majority of time on highway, this isn't happening.

I took pictures, showing my average MPH, what mode I was in, and that it was 60-70% highway.

I own the car, I drive the car, I state factual events...

Am I stating LONG term 30+ tanks. Nope. I have had plenty of 28mpg tanks. The ownership average over my 5k, is likely between 28-29.5mpg. 60-70% of all my driving is highway at 80mph in Sport.

But my experience has a hell of a lot more validity than yours in which you have none and just state everyone else's first hand experience on the forums is wrong.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: December 30, 2012, 1:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

Excellent replies.

Overall, do you feel like the 3-series lost it's 'Feel'?

The 3 series has gotten a bit 'softer'. The Electric steering isn't the best for providing feedback, either. Overall though, the car is the closest thing in it's class (for now) that's sporty and refined, with German engineering. I feel the interior has gotten a bit cheaper but that's just me. Others have noted that they feel it's gotten better.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: December 30, 2012, 2:02 pm

The M-Sport model, I think looks the best. Even if it does sorta water down the M Badge.

boltjaM3s commented: December 30, 2012, 2:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Yeah sure, remove those pink glasses or learn how to count. Unless you spent the vast majority of time on highway, this isn't happening.

No one cares about the minutiae that your spewing. Not a single F30 will/won't be sold because of fractional 0-60 times or gas mileage. What matters has nothing to do with any of that. BMW has built a great new car that succeeds because of the sum of all of its parts, all of its features. It isn't about a single one 'thing'. It's a fantastic package- performance, style, luxury. You can't find fault with any of that, so move on.

BJ

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 30, 2012, 4:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

The M-Sport model, I think looks the best. Even if it does sorta water down the M Badge.

Like I said, BMW has been doing M-Sport and M-Tech packages for 20+ years now.

The M-Sport does not have any exterior M badges(aside from the wheels which are happily gone from my car).

My friend's '99 E36 328is almost indistinguishable from a same year M3.

You could even get an M appearance package on the 318ti.

I find much more offense to M badges being put on by people.

beden1 commented: December 30, 2012, 5:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

No one cares about the minutiae that your spewing. Not a single F30 will/won't be sold because of fractional 0-60 times or gas mileage. What matters has nothing to do with any of that. BMW has built a great new car that succeeds because of the sum of all of its parts, all of its features. It isn't about a single one 'thing'. It's a fantastic package- performance, style, luxury. You can't find fault with any of that, so move on.

BJ

I wonder how many posts there will be about the F30 when the F31, F32 and F33 come out?

Saintor commented: December 31, 2012, 10:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I took pictures, showing my average MPH, what mode I was in, and that it was 60-70% highway.

I own the car, I drive the car, I state factual events...

Am I stating LONG term 30+ tanks. Nope. I have had plenty of 28mpg tanks. The ownership average over my 5k, is likely between 28-29.5mpg. 60-70% of all my driving is highway at 80mph in Sport.

Here came finally the string attached; now 30mpg isn't typical.

With the 22/34mpg EPA, if you drive 70% highway (vast majority as I said), no problem with a 30mpg. (22 + .7 x 12). You can achieve practically the same thing with an automatic 335i (23/33) or a 2011 528i (22/32).

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Not a single F30 will/won't be sold because of fractional 0-60 times or gas mileage.

Don't believe it one minute. Gadget lovers enjoy bragging on selective features, even if they don't benefit really from them.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 31, 2012, 11:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Here came finally the string attached; now 30mpg isn't typical.

With the 22/34mpg EPA, if you drive 70% highway (vast majority as I said), no problem with a 30mpg. (22 + .7 x 12). You can achieve practically the same thing with an automatic 335i (23/33) or a 2011 528i (22/32).

Don't believe it one minute. Gadget lovers enjoy bragging on selective features, even if they don't benefit really from them.

When did I say anything about typical and not typical, when did I represent anything other than 60-70% highway. I have had plenty of 30+ tanks, plenty of 28.5 too, none any worse. My average after 5k of owning the car is ABOVE 28.5, but less than 30. That's excellent.

Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.

Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.

Saintor commented: December 31, 2012, 11:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

When did I say anything about typical and not typical, when did I represent anything other than 60-70% highway. I have had plenty of 30+ tanks, plenty of 28.5 too, none any worse. My average after 5k of owning the car is ABOVE 28.5, but less than 30. That's excellent.

Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.

Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.

Well if you are so "exhausted", but don't you just take a walk.... after all you started to reply to me, not the contrary.

The point here (since you are so exhausted that you fail to understand) is that technically speaking, the N20 or any 4-cyl. turbo is not required to achieve this level of fuel economy and output. Modern 6 cyl. will do it, and adding insult to the injury, cost less to run while being more powerful.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 31, 2012, 11:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Well if you are so "exhausted", but don't you just take a walk.... after all you started to reply to me, not the contrary.

The point here (since you are so exhausted that you fail to understand) is that technically speaking, the N20 or any 4-cyl. turbo is not required to achieve this level of fuel economy and output. Modern 6 cyl. will do it, and adding insult to the injury, cost less to run while being more powerful.

I wanted to see this one out, see if you could be reasoned with and not just label you a troll.

It IS exhausting.

But entertaining.

Your points are really silly to me.

Fact is, BMW COULD have gotten the same efficiency as the N20 in a variety of other configurations including a straight 6. However, what about time frame, investment, etc.

But they DID NOT, they made the N20. So you can stay in your corner and talk to yourself about what could have been, or see the light and join reality and move on with your life. You keep bringing up cost to run...god, go buy a non luxury car if you are so concerned about not running premium. BMWs have been running premium for a long time, 4 cylinder or not, forced induction or not. Once again, if one of your talking points is disputed from E90 vs F30, you bring it back to something like operating costs of Japanese V-6s.

I am going to summarize all this stupidity.

The N20 gets 20% or better MPG than the N52 in both fuelly.com and owners real world experience

The N20 is quite a bit faster than the N52 in meaningful ways such as 0-60,0-100, 30-50 and 50-70. In rolling start 5-60, the N52 seems to have a 2 tenth advantage.

The N20 has no exhaust note and does not have much of an induction sound compared to the N52.

BMW could have done a variety of things instead of the N20 but DIDN'T.

The N20 COULD be compared to a variety of cars outside it's class including Camrys and Accord V-6s that can run on regular. If you want one, go buy on.

Nice and tidy.

So there you go.

Don't buy an F30. Don't buy an N55 one and think you are superior. All your talk about Accords and Camrys, go buy an automatic or CVT Japanese appliance car for $30k+ and remind yourself how much better off you are each time you save $1.00 a fill up by putting in 89. Please blow up their message boards while your at it.

Saintor commented: December 31, 2012, 1:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I

Fact is, BMW COULD have gotten the same efficiency as the N20 in a variety of other configurations including a straight 6. However, what about time frame, investment, etc.

But they DID NOT, they made the N20.

And that's a big mistake. Too much was lost in the process. BMW has replaced a fun engine with a dull one. Wasn't BMW all about pleasure?

Comparing the F30 328i exclusively to an E90 328i is another mistake.

Yes, the Asians teach a lesson in efficiency/technology to the Germans, whatever your condescending tone against them. No I won't buy one, thank you. I am glad that Mercedes still offer the V6 in the C300, revised with direct injection for 2013.

Quote:

The N20 is quite a bit faster than the N52 in meaningful ways such as 0-60,0-100, 30-50 and 50-70. In rolling start 5-60, the N52 seems to have a 2 tenth advantage.

0-.... are irrelevant, as the top gear accelerations. Again was the last time you prerev your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? Oh wait, you answered to that. The answer was *Never*. Just numbers for kids to brag about.

In the real life, if you mash a F30 328i's throttle from idle, chances are that an old E90 328i will pass you. On a racetrack, the F30 N20 will eat the E90 N52 for lunch. Less obvious on streets, as I showed.

But I don't really care which one has best numbers, my biggest gripe about the N20 is the feel, should I say lack of feel. You said that you would spend more to get a 6-cyl. if they offered it for a few 100$, so don't play the innocent and state here that the N20 is the wonder of them all, the best solution in a Bimmer (it is not) .

jdong commented: December 31, 2012, 1:20 pm

On the positive side, at least BMW offers a 335i with a great 6 cylinder engine that gets similar fuel economy at around $3000 more for an equivalent set of options. The Audi world I came from required you to shell out almost $10k to go from the A4 to S4, trade in the ZF 8HP for a shuffle-happy DCT on hills, and also lose a few mpg city and highway in the process.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 31, 2012, 1:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Comparing the F30 328i exclusively to an E90 328i is another mistake.

LOOK AT THE THREAD TITLE. You are just highlighting how much of your dribble is off topic and reaching.

I am glad that Mercedes still offer the V6 in the C300, revised with direct injection for 2013.

Great, I hope you start stalking Fuelly.com for the stastics. Money says that the C300 will not match the N20 in efficiency and the performance of the C350 barely matches the N20, the C300 will not match the N20. Oh yeah, the C300 I bet requires the same grade of fuel as the N20.

0-.... are irrelevant, as the top gear accelerations. Again was the last time you prerev your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best acceleration? Oh wait, you answered to that. The answer was *Never*. Just numbers for kids to brag about.

In the real life, if you mash a F30 328i's throttle from idle, chances are that an old E90 328i will pass you. On a racetrack, the F30 N20 will eat the E90 N52 for lunch. Less obvious on streets, as I showed.
Again, only YOU are saying those figures are irrelevant, you are talking to yourself. According to you in real life, mash the throttle from idle and an N52 will pass you? How so? 5-60, there is an advantage according to you(one which can be disproved just by tires being the same size) of .2, but the N20 picks up so much steam so quickly, the N20 would pull past the N52 after that BRIEF initial lead. I also track my cars, auto-x, track days, and drag strips, I also modify them. I have so much more leverage to talk about what I know then you who seems to bench race/magazine race ad-nausiem.

But I don't really care which one has best numbers, my biggest gripe about the N20 is the feel, should I say lack of feel. You said that you would spend more to get a 6-cyl. if they offered it for a few 100$, so don't play the innocent and state here that the N20 is the wonder of them all, the best solution in a Bimmer (it is not) .

How am I playing innocent? I indulged you in your game of make believe, that if I could have anything, it would have been a smaller FI straight 6. The N20 is the wonder of them all in regards to base engines offered in the entry level lux class...I even went through them engine by engine. You skip past that and bring up some other trivial point.

Saintor commented: December 31, 2012, 4:12 pm

Oh my god. He writes all in bold now. He *mad*.

Quote:

I even went through them engine by engine.

No you didn't. If you thought you did, then you failed. Your BS is not good enough to counter the facts. There are plenty of good reasons to own a F30. Unfortunately, a N20 is not one of them. Would be at home in a Jetta. For the rest, the F30 is just fine.... as a 335i.

Jamesonsviggen commented: December 31, 2012, 4:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Oh my god. He writes all in bold now. He *mad*.

No you didn't. If you thought you did, then you failed. Your BS is not good enough to counter the facts. There are plenty of good reasons to own a F30. Unfortunately, a N20 is not one of them. Would be at home in a Jetta. For the rest, the F30 is just fine.... as a 335i.

I replied in bold since it was within your quote, it's much easier to read my additions that way.

My BS is not good enough to counter the facts, again-who says? You have no authority to say so

I will copy and paste it again, the base car engines in the entry level lux segment:

"So in the proper segment that the 3 series competes in....

IS=out of date, base engine 2.5L V-6 is a dog
ATS=handling/steering aside, the 2.0T is not as smooth as the N20, makes about the same power though claims to have much more, and weights 50-100lbs more than the 328(low weight claim for the ATS is low optioned 2.5).
G37=This is the bang for the buck winner. The 2.5L was dropped. The G is old and the Q V-6 is known to be a bit thrashy and in some ways is faster than the N20, others not. The MPG advantage of the N20 is LARGE. But for a $299 lease, the G37 gives nearly 335 levels of performance to value shoppers
C250=The N20 is far more powerful and offers greater efficiency. The C350 BARELY equals the N20 in terms of performance. Sad.
A4=The Torque rich 2.0TSI is the best competing 4 cylinder in many ways. It is quite underrated just like the N20. The N20 still has a slight edge.
S60=Basically a FWD car with a odd 5 cylinder. Not quite competitive here.
(I left out Acura-nothing anymore competitive than what is already listed BTW)

So there you have it. BMW is out to make money and to be competitive. Fact is, the N20 F30 is VERY class competitive if not class leading."

Please, show me how I FAILED at comparing base engines in the entry-level luxury class. I dare you.

akaMomo commented: December 31, 2012, 9:17 pm

I think its been mentioned here but my first two impressions between my ownership of an E90 335i and now an F30 335i - and granted, I haven't had the E90 in a while, so this is just my poor memory, but what strikes me. I'm curious who agrees or not...

1) cockpit feel. The controls of the car and the displays - from NAV to HUD, all give me more of a wrapped-in kind of feeling than I remember having with my E90. The materials aren't even as nice (I don't think) when individually assessed - but when taken overall the feel is amazing, even with the chassis so large under me. When I sat in the E90 I don't remember it feeling quite as form-fitted as my F30 feels. Does anyone agree?

2) transmission. The 8AT is tight. Also, the steering, while disconnected, is precise. Going further than the AT, the two seem to combine to give me a very aim-and-shoot kind of feeling that I'm loving. It is a bit electronic and removed but also rewarding in its own right. Kind of best-of-class for fly-by-wire. Thoughts?

jdong commented: December 31, 2012, 9:23 pm

Call me nuts but I actually like the feel of the F30 steering compared to the E90. The 2011 328i I've driven was a bit too sports car like for my taste as a daily driver. Parking the car is like wrestling a dead alligator, and when driving on imperfect highway pavement, the steering transmits so much road feel that it's massaging my arms.

The F30 steering might be mute but it is direct and accurate.

mdsbuc commented: December 31, 2012, 10:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaMomo

I think its been mentioned here but my first two impressions between my ownership of an E90 335i and now an F30 335i - and granted, I haven't had the E90 in a while, so this is just my poor memory, but what strikes me. I'm curious who agrees or not...

1) cockpit feel. The controls of the car and the displays - from NAV to HUD, all give me more of a wrapped-in kind of feeling than I remember with the E90. The materials aren't even as nice I don't think when individually assessed but overall the feel is amazing, even with the chassis so large under me. I sat in the other car and it wasn't all quite as form fitted as this feels. Does anyone agree?

I understand exactly what you're talking about. My E60 had the "in the cockpit" feel. It was one of the things I loved about that car. I was so disappointed when it was time to sell it that the F10 had lost it. That "feel" was one of the reasons I chose the E60 over the E90 in the first place. I never could have been happy with the E90 for a lot of reasons. Fortunately the F30 seems to correct almost everyone of the things I did not like about the previous generation.

-=Hot|Ice=- commented: December 31, 2012, 11:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

When did I say anything about typical and not typical, when did I represent anything other than 60-70% highway. I have had plenty of 30+ tanks, plenty of 28.5 too, none any worse. My average after 5k of owning the car is ABOVE 28.5, but less than 30. That's excellent.

Why do you feel validated by comparing the MPG to other F30's and an F10? You started this argument by stating how the F30 does not get better MPG than the N52 E90. All of my figures are to counter that argument.

Now you want to change your point AGAIN? Exhausting.

Please stop feeding the troll.

boltjaM3s commented: December 31, 2012, 11:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdong

The 2011 328i I've driven....parking the car is like wrestling a dead alligator, and when driving on imperfect highway pavement, the steering transmits so much road feel that it's massaging my arms.

+1

Couldn't have said it any better myself. What others call "road feel", I call "unrefined and uncomfortable".

The F30 solves all this.

BJ

dtc100 commented: January 1, 2013, 12:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdong

Call me nuts but I actually like the feel of the F30 steering compared to the E90. The 2011 328i I've driven was a bit too sports car like for my taste as a daily driver. Parking the car is like wrestling a dead alligator, and when driving on imperfect highway pavement, the steering transmits so much road feel that it's massaging my arms.

The F30 steering might be mute but it is direct and accurate.

For those who may use the car as a daily driver, but want to have some sports car feel on the twisties when not "daily driving," the loss of the steering feel is a major set back.

Too bad too many people want the 3 series to be just a daily driver. BMW used to brag about the steering feel of the 3ers, no longer.

As for the smooth revving N/A I6, it is very clear it could get the same mpg as the 2.0T, and the same power, while retaining its unique 3er identity, but it seemed jumping on the 2.0T bandwagon is a fashionable thing to do these days.

Granted BMW has the engineering resources to make the 2.0T stand out among other 2.0Ts. But they could have the N/A I6 stand out on it's own by further refining it also.

Unlike Sainter though, I understand it was a business decision, it is what it is. When there is not another good I6 alternative out there in this segment, there is not much for BMW to lose by going 2.0T. What we suppose to do, get a Volvo?

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 12:26 am

Road feel does not necessarily imply harshness and comfort and refinement do not necessarily imply isolation and numbness.
It is possible to have a refined, comfortable car with very good road feel.

CA

boltjaM3s commented: January 1, 2013, 12:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Road feel has nothing to do with harshness and and it is possible to have a refined, comfortable car with good road feel.

CA

That's precisely what the F30 is. Doesn't handle like a tank in the driveway, doesn't explode in potholes on the highway. I couldn't be happier for day-to-day driving.

And, again, we're talking fractions here compared to the E90. E46 different story, night and day. But compared to the E90, the F30 is what, 2% less responsive, blindfolded you wouldn't be able to tell one car from the other on the highway or on local streets. It's much ado about nothing by people looking to nitpick. Always something to whine about, these enthusiasts.

BJ

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 12:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

That's precisely what the F30 is. Doesn't handle like a tank in the driveway, doesn't explode in potholes on the highway. I couldn't be happier for day-to-day driving.

BJ

Neither of those attributes have anything to do with road feel.

I still don't understand the complaints about heavy steering in the E9x.

The pothole explosions issue on the E9x sport suspension also has nothing to do with road feel. It was simply a poorly sorted out suspension. I was able to solve the issue with no loss of road feel.

I would have been very surprised if BMW had not solved the pothole explosion issue on the F30. They may not have ever officially admitted that they had a problem on the E9x but I know as a fact that they were very aware of the issue.

CA

boltjaM3s commented: January 1, 2013, 12:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Neither of those attributes have anything to do with road feel.

I still don't understand the complaints about heavy steering in the E9x.

CA

It's something you don't notice because you're used to it in the E93. Once you experience the F30 at no speed you'll see that it feels like a luxury car with power steering because it's effortless to make a three-point-turn again. Once at speed, it feels tight, and in Sport mode it requires more effort and thus recreates the E90 to a tee.

BJ

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 12:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's something you don't notice because you're used to it in the E93. Once you experience the F30 at no speed you'll see that it feels like a luxury car with power steering because it's effortless to make a three-point-turn again. Once at speed, it feels tight, and in Sport mode it requires more effort and thus recreates the E90 to a tee.

BJ

We regularly go from a luxury car (750Li) to the E93 and we had a Mercedes C Class in Florida for 6 weeks.

I don't find the steering on the E9x to be heavy and neither does Ms. Audio.

The E93 is due for service. I'll see if I can get an F30 loaner and I'll post my impression of the steering.

CA

WaxComb commented: January 1, 2013, 5:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

We regularly go from a luxury car (750Li) to the E93 and we had a Mercedes C Class in Florida for 6 weeks.

I don't find the steering on the E9x to be heavy and neither does Ms. Audio.

The E93 is due for service. I'll see if I can get an F30 loaner and I'll post my impression of the steering.

CA

I'd definitely say the E9x steering is much heavier than the F30. I don't have any complaints, but I had an F30 loaner for a week my E92 felt much heavier when I got it back. It took me all of 5 minutes to get use to it again, but still.

SilverX3 commented: January 1, 2013, 6:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WaxComb

I'd definitely say the E9x steering is much heavier than the F30. I don't have any complaints, but I had an F30 loaner for a week my E92 felt much heavier when I got it back. It took me all of 5 minutes to get use to it again, but still.

Is heavier = better or worse ?

I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars

WaxComb commented: January 1, 2013, 7:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverX3

Is heavier = better or worse ?

I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars

I don't have an opinion either way, but heavier is not necessarily better. Given that, I like my E92 steering feel better. I think the F30 steering weighting is fine in sport, but still lighter than my E92.

Regarding jap cars, I liked the weighting of my old 2004 G35 with the OEM summer tires. However, I hated the overboosted feeling of the old Infiniti I35 (badge engineered late 90s/early 2000s Nissan Maxima) when I had that as a loaner once...

boltjaM3s commented: January 1, 2013, 7:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverX3

Is heavier = better or worse ?

I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars

Extremely subjective.

Take a test drive, it's the only way to answer the question.

BJ

Chris90 commented: January 1, 2013, 9:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WaxComb

I don't have an opinion either way, but heavier is not necessarily better. Given that, I like my E92 steering feel better. I think the F30 steering weighting is fine in sport, but still lighter than my E92.

Steering used to be heavy cause you were getting lots of feedback from the road. Nowadays with no steering feel whatsoever on most cars, heavy steering is just a gimmick.

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 9:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Please, show me how I FAILED at comparing base engines in the entry-level luxury class. I dare you.

Beware of what you are asking - you will get it.

First, we are talking about technological choices, why are you hiding behind BS marketing stuff? There are zero technical reason to restrict to entry-lux marketing BS. Unless you are afraid of something, aren't you?

The one that you conveniently left out is the one that hurts the N20 the most. It actually annihilates the whole BS theory behind the N20.

I am talking about the Lexus ES350 that definitely belongs to the entry-level class. Similar width (0.4") and weight. Very old engine and even older transmission.

It is absolutely nonsense why BMW went crazy with the N20 and can't even beat a competitor with an old engine (2005), no direct injection and 6-sp. We keep hearing that BMW had no choice going this way. Yeah sure. We have this case but I also referred earlier to the Accord and Altima.

Before your little demagogy kicks in once again, *no* I won't buy one of these.

As all of this clearly shows, there was no compelling reason for BMW to go with the N20. We are getting it for the wrong reasons. Fashion and stupid displacement rules in Europe that bears no relevance here. It is amazing that competitors enjoy great technical results relying on NA V6 (without direct-injection and with basic 6-sp. transmission) while BMW's basic position is 'can't be done'. *Wrong.*

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 10:10 am

-

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 10:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Beware of what you are asking - you will get it.

First, we are talking about technological choices, why are you hiding behind BS marketing stuff? There are zero technical reason to restrict to entry-lux marketing BS. Unless you are afraid of something, aren't you?

The one that you conveniently left out is the one that hurts the N20 the most. It actually annihilates the whole BS theory behind the N20.

I am talking about the Lexus ES350 that definitely belongs to the entry-level class. Similar width (0.4") and weight. Very old engine and even older transmission.

It is absolutely nonsense why BMW went crazy with the N20 and can't even beat a competitor with an old engine (2005), no direct injection and 6-sp. We keep hearing that BMW had no choice going this way. Yeah sure. We have this case but I also referred earlier to the Accord and Altima.

Before your little demagogy kicks in once again, *no* I won't buy one of these.

As all of this clearly shows, there was no compelling reason for BMW to go with the N20. We are getting it for the wrong reasons. Fashion and stupid displacement rules in Europe that bears no relevance here. It is amazing that competitors enjoy great technical results relying on NA V6 (without direct-injection and with basic 6-sp. transmission) while BMW's basic position is 'can't be done'. *Wrong.*

You diluted your argument once again.

No one cares about Japanese mid size sedans. It's not about buying BS that I only compare entry level luxury, it's the only way to have specific discourse. You can find entry level cars for $20k that do SOME things better. It's meaningless. Entry level luxury has expectations of size, power, efficiency, luxury and tech. This is the class of the base 3. This is the class the base 3 is at the top of. You can get out of this segment and get less weight, maybe throw in FWD and lose handling and gain something else in it's place. But it's not the same recipe anymore. That's not marketing BS or brain washing.

Off the top of my head without scouring the web for minutiae I named all the competitions base engines in the class. Did you dispute my examples? No. You dug up one car that does not even compute. A fwd Camry with a Lexus badge(now an Avalon). Again, you look petty- so desperate to try and counter solid info that didnt require a cruise of the web.

So I will look at your example.

You just went on and on about top gear acceleration being a poor test then try and use it here. When I used it we were comparing 6mt to 6mt. Now you want to compare a 6spd auto to an 8spd auto. But your famed 5-60 figure showed up again. Sigh.

You also skew the information YOU provide because of your biased agenda.

You dont list the 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile and trap speed which all have the N20 BEATING your Lexus Camry. Then you list only the fuel costs, not the EPA and also not fuelly.com. Why, does the ES350 not require premium, another silly thing you are hung up on? You know you CAN run 89 in an N20. People on the forums do, I just don't choose to in order to save a couple of cents.

So you compared the n20 to a platform engineered camry/avalon that no one here would want. But like you already beat into us with the Camry, no one cares.

So I have a bunch of examples that prove my point as you did not argue them. You found one weak one as the counter. So my examples of the IS, A4, S60, ATS, G37, TL/TSX,C250 vs your ES350 counter.

You lose this round again. But people can vote who did better at stating the n20 as class competitive or not. Since you always declare YOURSELF the winner.

3284me commented: January 1, 2013, 12:13 pm

I had an f30 loaner a few months back while my car was in for its free oil change. I got to drive it a little over 100 miles for the day so I had enough time to evaluate the differences. First and foremost the speed difference. Totally awesome compared to my 2011 328. Nuf said as you all know this already! Steering is subjective because you get used to what your daily driver is. My previously car that I still own is a y2k Maxima so when I occasionally drive it I almost oversteer the car until I get used to it because the wheel spins so freely. When I first drove my e90 I actually felt like I couldn't one hand parallel park because the steering was two heavy. My point is anyone coming from an e90 will feel the difference, but forget and actually like the f30 feel better the more they drive one.

Lot of debate about gas mileage and premium gas that makes me smile. These cars are made to driven at higher speeds than legal in America. These cars cost more than other cars in the same class as well. I didn't buy this car worried about getting 28 mph. It's too fun to drive to worry about and ruins the experience if you do. I also only put premium in my car regardless of the price difference between it and mid grade because the BMW recommends it and I would spend more on cigars or booze then I would save using a lower grade of gas! I realize money is tight in this economy, but if we have worry about mpg or premium gas consumption maybe we should be looking elsewhere for a car that gets 40 mpg and is less expensive. Hopefully I will be looking to buy an f30 within the next 6 months for my wife (or thats what I'll tell her) as the f30 looks, drives, and is technically superior to my e90. I may not have the fastest or most fuel efficient car around, but I have a blast driving this car everyday and in the end that's what it's all about.

dtc100 commented: January 1, 2013, 12:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

... while BMW's basic position is 'can't be done'. *Wrong.*

I don't recall BMW saying "can't be done". They decided 2.0T is the future, and made some good power and mpg out of it, then people convinced themselves 2.0T was the reason. Of course BMW is just happy about the myth, it is good for the business.

As you have pointed out, not only other manufactures proved V6s can achieve the same power and mpg, BMW had actually done it with the N52 528i.

There are however disadvantage of I6. It takes more space at the front. BMW probably wanted to prep people for future FWD conversion, they have to ease people into such changes, so going 2.0T and get people used to 4 bangers, will go a long way of moving to FWD and 3 cylinders platform

Let's face it, RWD is not the most efficient way to build a car, difficult to compete with other FWDs in interior room, comfort and cargo space. BMW knows they are not just competing with C-class, A4 or G37, its future relies on those who want to move up from Camry and Accord, who don't care about driving dynamics as much as mpg, room and comfort.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 12:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I don't recall BMW saying "can't be done". They decided 2.0T is the future, and made some good power and mpg out of it, then people convinced themselves 2.0T was the reason. Of course BMW is just happy about the myth, it is good for the business.

As you have pointed out, not only other manufactures proved V6s can achieve the same power and mpg, BMW had actually done it with the N52 528i.

There are however disadvantage of I6. It takes more space at the front. BMW probably wanted to prep people for future FWD conversion, they have to ease people into such changes, so going 2.0T and get people used to 4 bangers, will go a long way of moving to FWD and 3 cylinders platform

Let's face it, RWD is not the most efficient way to build a car, difficult to compete with other FWDs in interior room, comfort and cargo space.

If BMW did the same as the f10 and kept the n52 but reduced friction and got 33mpg out of an 8spd I would not own one.

The minute a manual was selected the 33mpg would be lower and again, much less torque than the n20.

Tuners say it themselves, they are welcoming the n20 with open arms in a way they would not for the typical 328 offering of the past.

dtc100 commented: January 1, 2013, 12:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

If BMW did the same as the f10 and kept the n52 but reduced friction and got 33mpg out of an 8spd I would not own one.

The minute a manual was selected the 33mpg would be lower and again, much less torque than the n20.

Tuners say it themselves, they are welcoming the n20 with open arms in a way they would not for the typical 328 offering of the past.

The tuners have no idea what future is ahead. Not only has BMW made it more difficult for the aftermarket tuners over time, future BMW drivers, many of them moving from Camry and Accord, will have no interest in any aftermarket mods.

It is all good really, less headache for BMW.

Oh BTW, what did you say about manual? The future BMW drivers are likely not going to know what it is anyway, much like today's Camry and Accord drivers.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 1:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

The tuners have no idea what future is ahead. Not only has BMW made it more difficult for the aftermarket tuners over time, future BMW drivers, many of them moving from Camry and Accord, will have no interest in any aftermarket mods.

It is all good really, less headache for BMW.

Oh BTW, what did you say about manual? The future BMW drivers are likely not going to know what it is anyway, much like today's Camry and Accord drivers.

Tuners have a very good idea.

They saw what was possible with the FI tuning of the N54 and N55. It is very appealing to people to get gains from plug and play tunes. They saw how to break into the ecu too.

The N20 allows them to apply that experience all over again. BMS had a N20 tune almost a year ago already.

You can't have it both ways. You have purists around here that wax on about the BMW of old. They want the new BMW's to be as much like the old as possible. Well, one of those ways is with a manual transmission. I don't care about cars that are not offered with manuals, they do not even make it onto my radar. You can talk about the future all you want. If BMW does not offer the 3 in a manual, it will not be on my radar. If the ATS is, it will make my short list.

There may be a day when there is no such thing as a new car offered with 3 pedals. That is likely decades away, I will figure it out then.

kpgray commented: January 1, 2013, 1:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

+1

Couldn't have said it any better myself. What others call "road feel", I call "unrefined and uncomfortable".

The F30 solves all this.

BJ

I fully agree with this statement from BJ!

I live in Michigan and IMO, Michigan arguably has the worst maintained roads in the country! (too much salt with freeze/thaw cycles and oversized heavy trucks) When I can read in newspapers about the extra cost to drivers from the poorly maintained roads due to all the potholes (last I seen the average was over $600/yr/vehicle), I have to take that into consideration. When I test drove the E46 and E90 models, the road feel was TOO good (if there is such a term), therefore the cars felt very harsh, even my Wife had commented of the ride. For those in warm climates, with fairly decent roads, that do not change from snowfall to snowfall, this is not an issue. The F30 has neutralized that harshness yet I can still feel the road, IMHO they did a great job in finding that balance between feel and harshness. That is why I bought a F30 and not the others.

av98 commented: January 1, 2013, 1:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpgray

I fully agree with this statement from BJ!

I live in Michigan and IMO, Michigan arguably has the worst maintained roads in the country! (too much salt with freeze/thaw cycles and oversized heavy trucks) When I can read in newspapers about the extra cost to drivers from the poorly maintained roads due to all the potholes (last I seen the average was over $600/yr/vehicle), I have to take that into consideration. When I test drove the E46 and E90 models, the road feel was TOO good (if there is such a term), therefore the cars felt very harsh, even my Wife had commented of the ride. For those in warm climates, with fairly decent roads, that do not change from snowfall to snowfall, this is not an issue. The F30 has neutralized that harshness yet I can still feel the road, IMHO they did a great job in finding that balance between feel and harshness. That is why I bought a F30 and not the others.

You forgot to mention the dry weather construction that occurs which causes painful delays and traffic. I don't particularly like visiting my in-laws during that time considering all the pot holes and awful road imperfections they have on Michigan freeways and streets. I definitely wouldn't mind having a stock luxury suspension in those areas. Thank god I live in California where great weather is year round

EddieB commented: January 1, 2013, 2:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

There may be a day when there is no such thing as a new car offered with 3 pedals. That is likely decades away, I will figure it out then.

Hopefully you are right. As I have only owned manuals since my first car at age 17. And always plan to.

Zeichen311 commented: January 1, 2013, 2:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpgray

When I test drove the E46 and E90 models, the road feel was TOO good (if there is such a term), therefore the cars felt very harsh, even my Wife had commented of the ride.

"Road feel" and "ride quality" are not the same thing. I believe captainaudio mentioned this earlier and was largely ignored.

A car with good road feel allows the driver to sense, through the steering wheel and the seat of his pants, how well the tires are gripping the road. It tells you whether they are near the limits of adhesion, how well they are keeping in contact with irregular pavement, their response to miniscule changes in steering input and so on. A car with poor road feel is uncomfortable to drive near the limits of traction.

Good road feel is not just a sporting feature but a safety feature: In foul weather when the limits are lower, better road feel means greater confidence piloting the car on low-traction surfaces. You know sooner when you are headed for trouble and can react accordingly. Counter-intuitively, poor ride quality also hurts you here, because if you're getting knocked about over rough pavement, it's harder to control the car.

Ideally you want to maximize both attributes, which is contradictory--how can a car communicate every nuance of the tires' behavior and isolate you from a rough road? It is difficult but not impossible. Balancing these opposites to provide excellence in both has been a BMW hallmark for decades. It is, perhaps more than any other feature, a defining characteristic of class-leading sport sedans. When BMW screws up that balance, it gets noticed.

The E9X sport suspension botched the ride quality side of the equation (search "pothole explosions" here). Improvements were made toward the end of the production run, without sacrificing road feel. By all accounts (mine included) the F30 has superior ride quality to the E90--but there is mounting opinion that BMW went too far, achieving that at the expense of road feel, and needs to make some tweaks to restore the expected balance.

Edit: It seems the captain and I had the same thoughts at the same time. He also pointed out very succinctly that steering feel and steering heft (weight/boost) are also separate traits, though often confused.

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 2:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpgray

I fully agree with this statement from BJ!

I live in Michigan and IMO, Michigan arguably has the worst maintained roads in the country! (too much salt with freeze/thaw cycles and oversized heavy trucks) When I can read in newspapers about the extra cost to drivers from the poorly maintained roads due to all the potholes (last I seen the average was over $600/yr/vehicle), I have to take that into consideration. When I test drove the E46 and E90 models, the road feel was TOO good (if there is such a term), therefore the cars felt very harsh, even my Wife had commented of the ride. For those in warm climates, with fairly decent roads, that do not change from snowfall to snowfall, this is not an issue. The F30 has neutralized that harshness yet I can still feel the road, IMHO they did a great job in finding that balance between feel and harshness. That is why I bought a F30 and not the others.

Road feel refers to the driver getting a sense of what the car is doing it does not refer to the driver getting the fillings shaken out of his teeth when a pothole is hit. Road feel and harshness are not the same thing and it is possible to have good road feel without harshness. There are many cars that have harsh suspensions and very poor road feel and there are cars with good road feel with comfortable ride quality. With the technoloy available today it is possible to have both good road feel and a comfortable ride and there is really no excuse for designing a car that is marketed as a luxury sport sedan that does not have booth.

There seems to be a belief among some posters here that a performance car has to have a harsh suspension, and a transmission that shifts abruptly. This is not the case as a harsh suspension and abrupt shifts will upset the balance of the car which is not something that should happen in a high performance, or for that mtter ny, cad. In actuality an overly stiff suspension is detremental to handling as it will not be able to keep the tires in contact with the road. This was the case with the E9x sport suspension with RFTs. On poor road surfaces the car would bounce all over the pace. The bouncing around can be reduced by going to a softer suspension but an overly soft suspension can also be detremental to handling. What BMW accomplished with the E9x sport suspension was that they sold a "luxury sport sedan" that had serious defiencies both as a luxury car and as a sport sedan. The E9x sport package does have very good road feel (i.e. steering feedback) and as I was able to accomplish it is possible to improve the ride quality, eliminate the harshness and keep the excellent steering feel. The bottom line is that the E9x was a good starting point. BMW got the suspension geometry and the spring rates right but screwed up on the dampers (shocks) and the RFTs. Both of these were faiely easily rectified although it took me a while to figure out how.

There also seems to be some confusion between steering feel and steering boost. Making the steering heavier does not necessariy increase steering feel and making it lighter does not necessarily reduce it. Before power steering became standard in all cars they did not all have good steering feel. Some did and some did not. As an example neither a 1952 Plymouth or a 1952 Jaguar XK120 had power steering and there was a huge difference in "road feel" between the two cars.

Edit:
Just noticed Zeichen's post which appeared as I was composing this one. He did a very good job of describing the differemce between ride qualiy and there is no reason for me to repeat what he said.

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 2:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

"Road feel" and "ride quality" are not the same thing. I believe captainaudio mentioned this earlier and was largely ignored.

A car with good road feel allows the driver to sense, through the steering wheel and the seat of his pants, how well the tires are gripping the road. It tells you whether they are near the limits of adhesion, how well they are keeping in contact with irregular pavement, their response to miniscule changes in steering input and so on. A car with poor road feel is uncomfortable to drive near the limits of traction.

Good road feel is not just a sporting feature but a safety feature: In foul weather when the limits are lower, better road feel means greater confidence piloting the car on low-traction surfaces. You know sooner when you are headed for trouble and can react accordingly. Counter-intuitively, poor ride quality also hurts you here, because if you're getting knocked about over rough pavement, it's harder to control the car.

Ideally you want to maximize both attributes, which is contradictory--how can a car communicate every nuance of the tires' behavior and isolate you from a rough road? It is difficult but not impossible. Balancing these opposites to provide excellence in both has been a BMW hallmark for decades. It is, perhaps more than any other feature, a defining characteristic of class-leading sport sedans. When BMW screws up that balance, it gets noticed.

The E9X sport suspension botched the ride quality side of the equation (search "pothole explosions" here). Improvements were made toward the end of the production run, without sacrificing road feel. By all accounts (mine included) the F30 has superior ride quality to the E90--but there is mounting opinion that BMW went too far, achieving that at the expense of road feel, and needs to make some tweaks to restore the expected balance.

excellent post

The ride/handling balance is a key element in car design/engineering/marketing and sales.

When the balance is wrong, and runs on the side of being too stiff, it turns off a lot of buyers. When it goes the other way and is a bit too soft, it might get written up in the magazines or enthusiast sites, but is less likely to offend the same volume of actual buyers.

This is what BMW has done recently.

The F30 may piss of magazine writers and guys around here, 15-20% enough to not buy the F30. But it skewing the ride/handling balance a more to the other side, it may expand it's buying audience by 20-30% or more. So it means more sales for them. They are a company out to make $$$. So we can lament it all we want but as long as it makes them more money it goes without being heard. But they still offer REAL M cars which remain more driver focused and have the balance shifted back to where enthusiasts want.

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 3:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverX3

Is heavier = better or worse ?

I don't like the lightness steering of jap cars

There is a sweet spot and not all cars with good road feel have the same amount of steering boots. Overly boosted steering can make the car feel numb and isolating but heavy steering does not necessarily equate to good road feel.

What tends to happen is that people feel that if they increase (or decrease) a certain parameter in a car and they teel that there i an improvement it will logically follow that if the increase (or decrease) it even more there will be an even bigger improvement. A common example is suspension stiffness. If the stiffer the suspension the better the handling it would logically follow that for maximum hanlding a suspension would not be necessary as the ultimately stiff suspension would be to simply attach the wheels directly to the frame of the car,

With most things you will reach a point of diminshining returns where continuing to do the same thing that resulted in an improvement will no longer result in an improvement and in reality will result in a diminshment in the characreristic you were seeking to improve.

CA

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 3:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

excellent post

The ride/handling balance is a key element in car design/engineering/marketing and sales.

When the balance is wrong, and runs on the side of being too stiff, it turns off a lot of buyers. When it goes the other way and is a bit too soft, it might get written up in the magazines or enthusiast sites, but is less likely to offend the same volume of actual buyers.

This is what BMW has done recently.

The F30 may piss of magazine writers and guys around here, 15-20% enough to not buy the F30. But it skewing the ride/handling balance a more to the other side, it may expand it's buying audience by 20-30% or more. So it means more sales for them. They are a company out to make $$$. So we can lament it all we want but as long as it makes them more money it goes without being heard. But they still offer REAL M cars which remain more driver focused and have the balance shifted back to where enthusiasts want.

I agree that an overly stiff ride will turn off a lot of drivers and I was certainly one of them. If BMW has not improved the ride quality of the F30 over the E9x sport suspension (which they apparently have) I would not consider purchasing another 3/4 Series. If the new model has lost a significant amount of the road feel of the E9x that would also be a turn off and would aso be a deal breaker. I want both road feel and comfort and I know that I can have it. I have no illusions about a 3 Series being a race car or a track car. IMO a 3/4 Series that appeals to me would have the attributes of what has traditionally been referred to as a GT (Grand Touring) car. I want a car that has excellent handling and road feel, is comfortable to drive on long distance trips and has creature comforts and luxury features like a good sound sysem, nav, bluetooth, etc. If BMW can't provide such a car I will look elsewhere as in spite of the fact that I cuurently have two BMWs and am happy with both of them in their present state I have no particular loyalty to the brand (or any other).

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 4:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I agree that an overly stiff ride will turn off a lot of drivers and I was certainly one of them. If BMW has not improved the ride quality of the F30 over the E9x sport suspension (which they apparently have) I would not consider purchasing another 3/4 Series. If the new model has lost a significant amount of the road feel of the E9x that would also be a turn off and would aso be a deal breaker. I want both road feel and comfort and I know that I can have it. I have no illusions about a 3 Series being a race car or a track car. IMO a 3/4 Series that appeals to me would have the attributes of what has traditionally been referred to as a GT (Grand Touring) car. I want a car that has excellent handling and road feel, is comfortable to drive on long distance trips and has creature comforts and luxury features like a good sound sysem, nav, bluetooth, etc. If BMW can't provide such a car I will look elsewhere as in spite of the fact that I cuurently have two BMWs and am happy with both of them in their present state I have no particular loyalty to the brand (or any other).

CA

I have read every 328 f30 review. They say the f30 has given up a bit feedback and feel department. No one panned the car and I think 9x out of 10 the 328 was picked as class leader. So although changed, nothing drastic enough to fall too far from favor.

I too have no loyalties and will buy whatever car hits what I require in my recipe for a DD or my sports car.

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 4:42 pm

U

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I have read every 328 f30 review. They say the f30 has given up a bit feedback and feel department. No one panned the car and I think 9x out of 10 the 328 was picked as class leader. So although changed, nothing drastic enough to fall too far from favor.

I too have no loyalties and will buy whatever car hits what I require in my recipe for a DD or my sports car.

The F30 is the first BMW to have electric power assist for the steering. I have no first hand experience but from what I have heard from people whose opinions I respect there had been somewhat of a loss in the steering and "fun to drive" areas. There have simultaneously been improvements in other areas such as ride quality, engine power (328) and the automatic transmission. Based on what their priorities are some people will focus on the areas that improved and others will focus on the areas that they feel were better on the previous model. From all indications the overall package is very good.

I am sure the electric steering will improve over the years and it is unlikely that BMW will be going back to hydraulic assist. If after the E 9x sport suspension debacle BMW still had not figured out how to design a suspension that combined good handling, responsiveness and decent ride quality there is really no excuse for that. If the F30 feels like the Mercedes C Class I had in Florida it will not be a car that I am interested in buying. The C 250 was a fine car but it is not a car I am interested in owning. Whether a car appeals to a wide range of buyers or not is of no concern to me if it does not fit my needs or wants.

One thing that I am sure of is that I will never purchase another car that does not have cockpit adjustable suspension settings.

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 4:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

U

The F30 is the first BMW to have electric power assist for the steering. I have no first hand experience but from what I have heard from people whose opinions I respect there had been somewhat of a loss in the steering and "fun to drive" areas. There have simultaneously been improvements in other areas such as ride quality, engine power (328) and the automatic transmission. Based on what their priorities are some people will focus on the areas that improved and others will focus on the areas that they feel were better on the previous model. From all indications the overall package is very good.

I am sure the electric steering will improve over the years and it is unlikely that BMW will be going back to hydraulic assist. If after the E 9x sport suspension debacle BMW still had not figured out how to design a suspension that combined good handling, responsiveness and decent ride quality there is really no excuse for that. If the F30 feels like the Mercedes C Class I had in Florida it will not be a car that I am interested in buying. The C 250 was a fine car but it is not a car I am interested in owning. Whether a car appeals to a wide range of buyers or not is of no concern to me if it does not fit my needs or wants.

One thing that I am sure of is that I will never purchase another car that does not have cockpit adjustable suspension settings.

CA

Sounds about right to me.

I like the idea of push button electric suspension adjustment, my only concern is it complicates things once aftermarket parts are introduced. I usually find myself adding upgraded wheels, swaybars and the need to lower most cars by 1-1.5". In a perfect world my next car would not have 4x4 wheel gap lol. I just find that most cars are tuned to please too wide an audience and I tailor things to my liking with the aftermarket.

dtc100 commented: January 1, 2013, 5:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Tuners have a very good idea.

They saw what was possible with the FI tuning of the N54 and N55. It is very appealing to people to get gains from plug and play tunes. They saw how to break into the ecu too.

The N20 allows them to apply that experience all over again. BMS had a N20 tune almost a year ago already.

You can't have it both ways. You have purists around here that wax on about the BMW of old. They want the new BMW's to be as much like the old as possible. Well, one of those ways is with a manual transmission. I don't care about cars that are not offered with manuals, they do not even make it onto my radar. You can talk about the future all you want. If BMW does not offer the 3 in a manual, it will not be on my radar. If the ATS is, it will make my short list.

There may be a day when there is no such thing as a new car offered with 3 pedals. That is likely decades away, I will figure it out then.

N54 was easy to tune, N55 not so much, one used to be able to easily mod the exhaust, not so with all the sensors and ECU restrictions. BMW wants more control.

As for tuning the N20, my point is, with the direction BMW is going, they are after those who have no idea or care about aftermarket tuning, or the need for manual. The trend is clear.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 5:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

N54 was easy to tune, N55 not so much, one used to be able to easily mod the exhaust, not so with all the sensors and ECU restrictions. BMW wants more control.

As for tuning the N20, my point is, with the direction BMW is going, they are after those who have no idea or care about aftermarket tuning, or the need for manual. The trend is clear.

The N54 was a tuning break through, I remember reading about tuners trying to crack into the ecu.

They learned enough from that experience and did the same with the N55.

We put an exhaust on my car no problem, even though there is a sensor/flap by the muffler, no CEL is triggered.

Just like the radar detection industry vs law enforcement, it's always going to be a game. Tuners will be working around the OEM's no matter what is thrown at them. They adapt and get smarter just as the OEM's do. There is money to be made, it's that simple.

The OEMs see money to be made too. They see things like SEMA and even they bring their goodies to the show. More and more they offer parts that do the same thing as the tuners but keep warranties intact and can even be rolled into cars payments. They want to protect that money to be made as well by making it hard for the tuners to steal their thunder. The M-Performance line for the F30 is quite sweeping and displays this nicely. From exterior and interior modifications to big brakes, full suspensions, intakes(not for the f30 yet), exhausts, and power pack tunes.

This is not a trend that is going to die.

dtc100 commented: January 1, 2013, 5:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpgray

I fully agree with this statement from BJ!

I live in Michigan and IMO, Michigan arguably has the worst maintained roads in the country! (too much salt with freeze/thaw cycles and oversized heavy trucks) When I can read in newspapers about the extra cost to drivers from the poorly maintained roads due to all the potholes (last I seen the average was over $600/yr/vehicle), I have to take that into consideration. When I test drove the E46 and E90 models, the road feel was TOO good (if there is such a term), therefore the cars felt very harsh, even my Wife had commented of the ride. For those in warm climates, with fairly decent roads, that do not change from snowfall to snowfall, this is not an issue. The F30 has neutralized that harshness yet I can still feel the road, IMHO they did a great job in finding that balance between feel and harshness. That is why I bought a F30 and not the others.

BJ talks about how perfect his L328i feels, how the luxury line is the majority of the 3ers sales. Yet he constantly complains about the body roll of his L. People suggest he should have leased a sport line, not knowing he thought those who drove the sport line were a small percentage euthusiats wannabes.

All I am saying is, be careful when you agree with BJ

We talked about the steering feel of the past 3ers. Regardless whether you like it or not, it was one of the things that made the 3. The same is true for the N/A I6.

You can have the steering feel, and a comfortable/sporty suspension, the last MY E90s demonstrated that, you can also have a powerful N/A I6 that gets you good mpg, the last batch of 528s demonstrated that.

Going with 2.0T and EPS have little to do with mpg, tuning potential, more competent ride or even luxury. It is an over all long term business strategy to attract mainstream car (Camry, Accord...) buyers who want to move up.

As I said, it is what it is, don't try to make it more than what it is.

kpgray commented: January 1, 2013, 5:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

"Road feel" and "ride quality" are not the same thing. I believe captainaudio mentioned this earlier and was largely ignored.

A car with good road feel allows the driver to sense, through the steering wheel and the seat of his pants, how well the tires are gripping the road. It tells you whether they are near the limits of adhesion, how well they are keeping in contact with irregular pavement, their response to miniscule changes in steering input and so on. A car with poor road feel is uncomfortable to drive near the limits of traction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Road feel refers to the driver getting a sense of what the car is doing it does not refer to the driver getting the fillings shaken out of his teeth when a pothole is hit. Road feel and harshness are not the same thing and it is possible to have good road feel without harshness. There are many cars that have harsh suspensions and very poor road feel and there are cars with good road feel with comfortable ride quality. With the technoloy available today it is possible to have both good road feel and a comfortable ride and there is really no excuse for designing a car that is marketed as a luxury sport sedan that does not have booth.

CA

I concur, a poor choice of words Let me expand:

To me, it is particularly important to feel the roads while driving here in Michigan (and the mid-west in general) because of the constant freeze/thaw cycles (black ice being the most frighting!). However, when you hit an imperfection in the road (example: 6" gap in the pavement crack with residual cement/blacktop pebbles spread all over the pavement for the next 50 yards), I do not want the feedback of every road pebble! When that happens, I grab the wheel too tightly losing that feedback I desire, however, I DO want to feel how the tires are gripping, I DO want to feel the texture of the pavement, I DO want to feel how how I am gripping into a curve, but spare me from the harsh feedback shock of the big ones! IMHO, I believe the F30 has executed this very well!

As far as the ride quality, I spend 2 hours a day commuting and IMHO the softer standard suspension found on the xDrive is quite good without harshness (am I too demanding?). The DHP would have been better, but on the xDrive I do not get the advantage of the lower center of gravity (xDrive height + DHP suspension height = 20 mm (1") higher ground clearance). Has someone else put the DHP on the AWD? Are they happy with it? Just seemed to defeat the purpose.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 5:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

We talked about the steering feel of the past 3ers. Regardless whether you like it or not, it was one of the things that made the 3. The same is true for the N/A I6.

You can have the steering feel, and a comfortable/sporty suspension, the last MY E90s demonstrated that, you can also have a powerful N/A I6 that gets you good mpg, the last batch of 528s demonstrated that.

Going with 2.0T and EPS have little to do with mpg, tuning potential, more competent ride or even luxury. It is an over all long term business strategy to attract mainstream car (Camry, Accord...) buyers who want to move up.

As I said, it is what it is, don't try to make it more than what it is.

The I6 is one of the things that MADE the 3?

The 3 was born from the 2002 which was a 4 cylinder. Both the E30 and E36, both highly regarded as great generations, MANY MANY were sold with 4 cylinders.

The straight 6 made BMWs often unique to others with V-6's, but the 6 is not any more inherent in the history or defining of BMW than the 4 cylinder. I wonder globally, over the last 30 years, what engine BMW has BUILT the most of...it may very well be a 4 cylinder.

Also, do not make slight of the MPG/efficiency gains of the EPS or the N20. That's not really how it works. Today, it's the use of a host of small things that come together for meaningful gains. So An N52 with EPS would not be magic, an N52 with 8spd auto would not be magic, it's a lot of small things. It's low rolling resistance tires(hate them), its active aero tweaks(becoming more common) and non active, low friction engines and oils, high strength steel and soon more carbon fiber, and yes EPS. The F30 utilizes quite a few of these things all at once. And BMW is going to push this farther and farther with every generation. Maybe within 10 years the 3 series will weight 2900lbs thanks to intensive carbon fiber, have a 1.6L turbo 4 that makes 230hp, and gets 42mpg on the highway. My hope is it will still be RWD and have a manual lol.

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 5:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

BJ talks about how perfect his L328i feels, how the luxury line is the majority of the 3ers sales. Yet he constantly complains about the body roll of his L. People suggest he should have leased a sport line, not knowing he thought those who drove the sport line were a small percentage euthusiats wannabes.

All I am saying is, be careful when you agree with BJ

We talked about the steering feel of the past 3ers. Regardless whether you like it or not, it was one of the things that made the 3. The same is true for the N/A I6.

You can have the steering feel, and a comfortable/sporty suspension, the last MY E90s demonstrated that, you can also have a powerful N/A I6 that gets you good mpg, the last batch of 528s demonstrated that.

Going with 2.0T and EPS have little to do with mpg, tuning potential, more competent ride or even luxury. It is an over all long term business strategy to attract mainstream car (Camry, Accord...) buyers who want to move up.

As I said, it is what it is, don't try to make it more than what it is.

From what I have heard the switch to EPS is based on fuel economy and has nothing to do with making the car more Accord like to appeal to upwardly mobile buyers. Porsche has also gone to EPS and I seriously doubt that we are going to see very many Camrys traded in on 911s. EPS is obviously the wave of the future and in a few years will be the mainstream and as it evolved nobody is going to be lamenting the passing of hydraulic power steering.

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 5:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

From what I have heard the switch to EPS is based on fuel economy and has nothing to do with making the car more Accord like to appeal to upwardly mobile buyers. Porsche has also gone to EPS and I seriously doubt that we are going to see very many Camrys traded in on 911s. EPS is obviously the wave of the future and in a few years will be the mainstream and as it evolved nobody is going to be lamenting the passing of hydraulic power steering.

CA

EPS does not automatically mean the death of feedback and feel. Some people, some who have not driven an F30 make it out that way.

I think EPS feels different from what E90 drivers are used to. It does not mean the F30 does not offer good steering feel and feedback. It is still likely top of the class, only bettered by the ATS by some accounts.

I do wish and hope to see BMW offer a coding change to Sport and M-Sport cars that in Sport and Sport+ the car dials back the EPS by 10-20%.

dtc100 commented: January 1, 2013, 6:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

The straight 6 made BMWs often unique to others with V-6's,

And the steering feel/road feel. Two things somewhat unique for this segment about the recent past 3 series. Loss of both makes it difficult for some people to get over. It is understandable.

Their replacement is not unique among the competitors, although the execution of it may still be better.

Offering something unique is obviously more important for a Porsche than a 3 series. I am not surprised the 3 lost some of its unique attributes. It is after all a mainstream entry level luxury model. As others pointed out, in such segment, it is the sum of all parts matters, not individual elements.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 6:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

And the steering feel/road feel. Two things somewhat unique for this segment about the recent past 3 series. Loss of both makes it difficult for some people to get over. It is understandable.

It's statements like that which are inaccurate. EPS in the F30 being different in feel, or a REDUCTION in road feel/steering feel does not mean NO feel. (unless by the word LOSS-you meant reduction) The steering/handling balance is still top of the class, it seems only the ATS has shaken that up by admittedly taking a play from the BMW playbook. But also from the PAST BMW playbook was a lack of legroom in the back and other things the F30 got right.

Steering feel/handling/feedback and the straight 6 may have been 3 series hallmarks. These are things(aside from the straight 6's intake and exhaust note) that are not GONE with the F30, only changed-different-slightly lessened. But as even you stated, it's a package. To me it's a recipe...

On one end, the E90 might have had too much pepper or salt for the taste of some, and maybe the portion size was a bit small.

The F30 on the other hand is NOT bland food at a buffet either, large portions and no flavor.

The F30 recipe has great ingredients, some better than used in the E90, but the seasoning like salt and pepper is toned down. A lot more people will eat it without commenting, but some miss the "spice" of the original recipe.

captainaudio commented: January 1, 2013, 6:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

EPS does not automatically mean the death of feedback and feel. Some people, some who have not driven an F30 make it out that way.

I think EPS feels different from what E90 drivers are used to. It does not mean the F30 does not offer good steering feel and feedback. It is still likely top of the class, only bettered by the ATS by some accounts.

I do wish and hope to see BMW offer a coding change to Sport and M-Sport cars that in Sport and Sport+ the car dials back the EPS by 10-20%.

And EPS is not "steer by wire" as I have seen claimed by some posters.

There was a similar outcry when power steering first became populat in the 50s ans 60s. In those days it was an extra cost option (as were power brakes and radios and heaters) on all but very high end cars. In those days "purists" felt that power steering cars were devoid of road feel.

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 6:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

And EPS is not "steer by wire" as I have seen claimed by some posters.

There was a similar outcry when power steering first became populat in the 50s ans 60s. In those days it was an extra cost option (as were power brakes and radios and heaters) on all but very high end cars. In those days "purists" felt that power steering cars were devoid of road feel.

CA

Exactly.

These debates are kind of silly. They date back to the very start. I remember hearing about outcries when the car was first invented from the carriage/horse and buggy days.

There is this silly 80's movie with Meryl Streep and Albert Brookes(he drives an E30!) called Defending Your Life. He has to defend decisions he made in his past in order to get into heaven. He was offered stock in Casio and blew his friend off that no one would trust a Japanese time piece because the Japanese were not known to make anything well, nothing of precision. Hind sight is a bitch like that lol

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 6:47 pm

Quote:

You dont list the 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile and trap speed which all have the N20 BEATING your Lexus Camry. Then you list only the fuel costs, not the EPA and also not fuelly.com.

0-to-... and mpg are pointless and just numbers to brag about; zero impact on daily life. 5-60mph is the one that you want and the other key factor is money out of your pocket. EPA can be trusted and they even forced BMW to bring down their N20 inflated mpg figures. Now *that* matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You lose this round again. But people can vote who did better at stating the n20 as class competitive or not. Since you always declare YOURSELF the winner.

Actually, if you want to limit yourself with some marketing crap that has no relevance with technological choices, be it.

dtc100 commented: January 1, 2013, 6:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

It's statements like that which are inaccurate. EPS in the F30 being different in feel, or a REDUCTION in road feel/steering feel does not mean NO feel. (unless by the word LOSS-you meant reduction) The steering/handling balance is still top of the class, it seems only the ATS has shaken that up by admittedly taking a play from the BMW playbook. But also from the PAST BMW playbook was a lack of legroom in the back and other things the F30 got right.

Steering feel/handling/feedback and the straight 6 may have been 3 series hallmarks. These are things(aside from the straight 6's intake and exhaust note) that are not GONE with the F30, only changed-different-slightly lessened. But as even you stated, it's a package. To me it's a recipe...

On one end, the E90 might have had too much pepper or salt for the taste of some, and maybe the portion size was a bit small.

The F30 on the other hand is NOT bland food at a buffet either, large portions and no flavor.

The F30 recipe has great ingredients, some better than used in the E90, but the seasoning like salt and pepper is toned down. A lot more people will eat it without commenting, but some miss the "spice" of the original recipe.

Good analogy, except the all you can eat seafood buffet used to offer one lobster per person. Now the lobster is replaced with grab legs. Although you can eat as many crab legs as you want, and a lot of people like that change, it is understandable some people are pissed, because they come here for that single lobster.

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 6:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

There are however disadvantage of I6. It takes more space at the front. BMW probably wanted to prep people for future FWD conversion, they have to ease people into such changes, so going 2.0T and get people used to 4 bangers, will go a long way of moving to FWD and 3 cylinders platform

As long as they have to anticipate the N55, then it is a non-issue. Anyway I wouldn't mind a V6 BMW. Mercedes changed from I6 to V6 years ago and nobody is looking back.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 7:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Actually, if you want to limit yourself with some marketing crap that has no relevance with technological choices, be it.

I look at things from the perspective of a person with formal product development and product design training and years of experience making products for consumers.

While I also have a degree(only an associates, so it barely accounts) in marketing, I am aware of it's importance and use it in my work, but am also skeptical of anything it attempts to communicate with me. Example below*

So I really do not limit myself. I limit myself when trying to reel you into staying on topic or on focus and not trying to argue ten things at once with 20 different variables. I am now going to ramble on for my own amusement. I have listened to enough of your drivel. Enjoy.

*I went to school in the Detroit as I had planned to be a Car Designer. I attended CCS, one of the premiere colleges in the world largely known for car design. Pretty quickly I decided to focus on Product Design and kind of minor in cars as the car guys seem to have very short careers and found themselves without choices.

Sr. year I wound up having a class called Design Strategies taught by a GM industry spy(yes such a thing exists, they use a more PC term for the position).

Every other person in the class was in the core Transportation program, making it to a SR made them hot shots. I was the lone product guy there.

Teacher says, if you ran Porsche-would you greenlight the Cayenne(this was '01-02 I think, the SUV coming out was big news). All of the trans kids shouted no, how could they do such a thing, purist banter blah blah blah. I raised my hand and said I would.

You would, why? He asked.

I would greenlight it if I was in the business of making money. I take some of those profits and invest back in the company and make cars like the 911 better, cars the purists should buy and be thankful for the Cayenne which allowed it to happen.

So that little trip down memory lane...You sound like one of those kids who would have yapped about being too cool to allow something like the Cayenne to happen. Me-I know enough about business, about making product, about growth-I like the Cayenne and I like how BMW knows how to stay competitive within it's class and globally.

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 7:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

N54 was easy to tune, N55 not so much, one used to be able to easily mod the exhaust, not so with all the sensors and ECU restrictions. BMW wants more control.

As for tuning the N20, my point is, with the direction BMW is going, they are after those who have no idea or care about aftermarket tuning, or the need for manual. The trend is clear.

The N20 turbo is already running high at 16-18psi. Playing beyond certainly creates an important risk and there is no point doing so, given the minor $ increase for a 335i when you get so much in return.

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 7:13 pm

Are you trying to play big shot with me or something? Spare me your marketing effort and your endless BS. lol! You are wasting my time and yours. BTW, what you failed to do (i.e. getting a professional degree in mechanical engineering), *I did*. j/k.

Quote:

So I really do not limit myself

So you say.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 7:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

The N20 turbo is already running high at 16-18psi. Playing beyond certainly creates an important risk and there is no point doing so, given the minor $ increase for a 335i when you get so much in return.

You are just the expert on everything aren't ya.

An engine like the N20, or most any modern small displacement turbo engine is designed with a lot of factors in mind, one of them of course being longevity.

BMW stress tested the block of the N20 like any other and wants it to last a couple hundred thousand miles. They over build and over engineer.

16-18psi is not high boost for this or any modern well engineered 2.0L 4.

In fact, you will likely see a higher performing variant with more power-more boost and the internals and block will likely stay the same. In fact, BMW themselves will be offering a power pack kit to increase boost just the way they are doing with the N55. BMW would not do such a thing if it drastically reduced reliability or had other unintended consequences.

One could argue, that any particular engine at stock boost will last 150,000 miles and one with higher than intended might last 120,000 miles. But when you factor in engine to engine variations, usage-city/highway, maintenance, that very same gap can exist from stock engine to stock engine.

There is though a point of diminishing returns and simply cramming too much boost and running a turbo out of it's efficiency range can kill it prematurely.

But a basic stage 1-2 tune netting 20-22psi tops, is not going to be a big deal to the N20. I have been raising the boost on 2.0-2.3L turbo cars for 15 years now and will continue to do so without problem(my S52 even has 13psi on the original head gasket). The key is a safe tune, healthy AFR's and not going overboard. I knew of Saab tuners that would warn a kid that 20psi was safe and they would do a custom "tune" netting 26psi and the kids would throw a rod as they were also running waaaay lean. No one is doing stupid crap like that with the N20.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 7:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Are you trying to play big shot with me or something? Spare me your marketing effort and your endless BS. lol! You are wasting my time and yours. BTW, what you failed to do (i.e. getting a professional degree in mechanical engineering), *I did*. j/k.

So you say.

I may be a big shot if you think I am! I feel like you are the one with endless BS, you have wasted plenty of my time. I am now in the mood to have fun at your expense :P

I am just having fun talking about whatever random thing comes into my head. Since talking to you seems to just bring out random crap about random cars and random figures. I thought I would share a little story that puts a bit of perspective that counters your biased interpretation of my counters being marketing based.

Don't come at me bro with ME BS . The ratio of ME guys to ID(Industrial Design-me) guys, supply and demand. I have worked with, interviewed and hired 100 mechanical engineers over the years. I have successfully engineered quite a few products(with no formal training) when companies were too cheap to hire a proper engineer or let them go. Meanwhile, my engineers hate the idea of having to wear the designer hat and let me do my thing

Keep this up and I will need to validate myself by posting cars I have designed, posting my portfolio and whipping out my e-pen...I mean resume hahaha :P

edit: In all seriousness, my best friends are all engineers. A lot of them out there do not have much social skills(cannot give or take a joke) or personality. Hearing you have an ME as a background makes some sense to me from going back and forth on some excruciatingly specific details. But you obviously at least have a sense of humor and personality-even if I want to scream from listening to it lol.

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 8:39 pm

Quote:

You are just the expert on everything aren't ya.

An engine like the N20, or most any modern small displacement turbo engine is designed with a lot of factors in mind, one of them of course being longevity.

BMW stress tested the block of the N20 like any other and wants it to last a couple hundred thousand miles. They over build and over engineer.

16-18psi is not high boost for this or any modern well engineered 2.0L 4.

We don't share the same definition of "high" then. Which one of these has the highest pressure? 2.0T in a 200HP VW Passat? 2.0T in an 211HP A4? 2.0T in a 270HP TTS? N55? None of them has higher turbo pressure than the N20. So yes, that qualifies as "high". Not the highest (GM runs at 20 on factory modified engines), but "high", it is. The N55 runs at much lower.

Unless you have specific knowledge of what BMW considers acceptable, I don't care about what you assume.

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 8:43 pm

Quote:

I may be a big shot if you think I am! I feel like you are the one with endless BS, you have wasted plenty of my time. I am now in the mood to have fun at your expense :P

Well then you have too much free time.

In the meanwhile, we saw the marketing guy who claims that he responded to basic facts, but failed to do so. And aligning three other empty paragraphs of your own won't change that.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 8:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

We don't share the same definition of "high" then. Which one of these has the highest pressure? 2.0T in a 200HP VW Passat? 2.0T in an 211HP A4? 2.0T in a 270HP TTS? N55? None of them has higher turbo pressure than the N20. So yes, that qualifies as "high". Not the highest (GM runs at 20 on modified engines), but "high", it is. The N55 runs at much lower.

Unless you have specific knowledge of what BMW considers acceptable, I don't care about what you assume.

From experience, FI 6's run quite a bit less boost than small displacement, this is kind of a no brainer. When I had a Z32 300Zx, I think the twin turbo made like 9-10psi. I am sure the N55 is similar.

Meanwhile, I had a Viggen. It was plastered all over the media that it made over 20psi. It doesn't. It is CAPABLE of up to 20psi, the cars ecu would account for things such as elevation to hit target air mass so it made the same power at sea level or high elevation. This could be done by boosting UP TO 20.3psi. When a gauge was strapped to my car, it peaked at 13psi at sea level and when bolt on's thrown at it, 18.5psi.

So again, do not get hung up on the N20 boosting at 16-18psi as that is peak. Off boost it's an NA engine, probably 150hp lol. But on command, when called for it can PEAK at 18psi. Increasing that max a couple PSI when done with proper fueling is not a big deal.

I do not need to know what BMW considers acceptable. Manufactured things are built with tolerances. My BMW clutch holds MORE power than it actually needs to(my S52 clutch is stock lol), the N20 is not any different. If it was made to endure and handle only the exact boost it makes from the factory and no more, a lot more engines would grenade. Aside from handling boost, what about the engines that exceed oil changes, that maybe occasionally over-rev, that might see track days, might see excessive stop and go. Engines are over-engineered to account for such things. That includes a couple of psi.

When making a product I have had to anticipate all the ways something is to be used properly and improperly, I often have to build in a bit extra.

Your Mr. Mechanical Engineer. You should know all of this

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 8:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Well then you have too much free time.

I have been off of work for like a week now on Vacation, its winter, I am bored. Otherwise I would have not engaged you in such dribble going on about cars you do not own in the forum you do not intend to become a member of as you slam elements of a car because BMW will not build you the unicorn that does not exist.

Zeichen311 commented: January 1, 2013, 8:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Don't come at me bro with ME BS.

That's BSME, izzinit?

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 9:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

That's BSME, izzinit?

LOL. Well played :P

dtc100 commented: January 1, 2013, 9:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I would greenlight it if I was in the business of making money. I take some of those profits and invest back in the company and make cars like the 911 better, cars the purists should buy and be thankful for the Cayenne which allowed it to happen.

So that little trip down memory lane...You sound like one of those kids who would have yapped about being too cool to allow something like the Cayenne to happen. Me-I know enough about business, about making product, about growth-I like the Cayenne and I like how BMW knows how to stay competitive within it's class and globally.

I don't think he would have argued with you, had BMW developed a mass volume SUV, and used the profit to design the 3 series to cater more for the purists.

boltjaM3s commented: January 1, 2013, 9:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Unless you have specific knowledge of what BMW considers acceptable, I don't care about what you assume.

And every F30 owner in this forum doesn't care what you think.

Respectfully, please leave this forum. You don't own an F30, you won't own an F30, all you do is attempt to agitate F30 owners. You own an E90. All of us here have owned E90's too. Please go to the E90 forum where you can annoy F30 owners over there who care what E90 owners think of our cars. If we want E90 owners' opinions, we know where to go. So should you.

Thank you for your cooperation.

BJ

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 9:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I have been off of work for like a week now on Vacation, its winter, I am bored. Otherwise I would have not engaged you in such dribble going on about cars you do not own in the forum you do not intend to become a member of as you slam elements of a car because BMW will not build you the unicorn that does not exist.

I don't understand since you are already in.... *fantasy land*.

boltjaM3s commented: January 1, 2013, 9:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I don't think he would have argued with you, had BMW developed a mass volume SUV, and used the profit to design the 3 series to cater more for the purists.

....and now the Cadillac corner of the world chimes in yet again. Shall I re-post your statement from September where you said your mission in this forum is to "get BMW to listen and build us a smaller and tighter 3 Series"? Shall I remind you that the F30 is brand new and is selling extremely well and BMW isn't going to change it for you?

Attention Malicious E90 Owners: We get it. You can cut it out now. It's not happening.

BJ

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 9:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

I don't understand since you are already in.... *fantasy land*.

Do you have tips of things to see here? After all, you must have a timeshare here or something.

In yours, everyone races only 5-60(obviously, no speedlimits above 60mph), the N52 was kept, they added direct injection and it was so much better that the N20 never existed. You also get to put in 89 octane in your direct injected BMW, making even more superior to the Accord and Lexus Camry Es350 that you are beating from the 5mph roll.

Saintor commented: January 1, 2013, 9:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

And every F30 owner in this forum doesn't care what you think.

...
Thank you for your cooperation.

BJ

Just pass my replies and you'll be fine. "Thank you for your cooperation." I have been 2 years in the E90 section (when I still had my E46) before getting one, lol. I still want a 335i, if not a 435i.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 1, 2013, 9:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I don't think he would have argued with you, had BMW developed a mass volume SUV, and used the profit to design the 3 series to cater more for the purists.

They did.

The SAV(The X5-the X3, and now the X1) meant more money for BMW. This meant $$$ for the bread and butter sales champ the 3 which allows development of engines like the N20 and a bigger unibody with accommodating rear seating while being LIGHTER. It also allowed a lot more standard features and tech baked into the car while not inflating the price.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 2:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

They did.

The SAV(The X5-the X3, and now the X1) meant more money for BMW. This meant $$$ for the bread and butter sales champ the 3 which allows development of engines like the N20 and a bigger unibody with accommodating rear seating while being LIGHTER. It also allowed a lot more standard features and tech baked into the car while not inflating the price.

That is not designing the 3 for the purists, it is for the mainstream.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 10:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

That is not designing the 3 for the purists, it is for the mainstream.

I am a purist and I bought one. Doubt I am the only one.

A purist can find previous 3 series just a bit small(trunk, rear legroom, front shoulder room) and still want other driving ingredients for driving enjoyment.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 12:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I am a purist and I bought one. Doubt I am the only one.

A purist can find previous 3 series just a bit small(trunk, rear legroom, front shoulder room) and still want other driving ingredients for driving enjoyment.

Then you are not a purist, or at least you once were, but now prefer things that do not define a purist. By the above definition, an Accord owner is a purist, because he prefers, and gets the same things described above in an Accord.

Seriously though, no 3 series driver can be considered a purist. But we have other priorities, mainly a family to haul around, and cannot afford another weekend "purist" car. But at least if you are willing to sacrifice some ride comfort, room, trunk space..., for the enjoyment of driving a sporty car, you can claim your purist side of it.

For you my friend, if you have the weekend car to fulfill your purist side of it, then the F30 is likely to fulfill your family sedan daily commuter side of it. Good for you, but most 3 series drivers are not in your shoes.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 12:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Then you are not a purist, or at least you once were, but now prefer things that do not define a purist. By the above definition, an Accord owner is a purist, because he prefers, and gets the same things described above in an Accord.

You do not get to tell me what a purist is, sorry. Not any one variable, like size of a car defines a purist.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 12:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You do not get to tell me what a purist is, sorry. Not any one variable, like size of a car defines a purist.

I do get to tell you what I consider a purist, and by my definition, seeking more trunk space for example, is definitely not in the confine of a purist. You can certainly disagree.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 12:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I do get to tell you what I consider a purist, and by my definition, seeking more trunk space for example, is definitely not in the confine of a purist. You can certainly disagree.

Yes, there is opinion and you can have your opinion. You just kind of stated it as if fact.

In my opinion, you are not a purist...

You are not a purist...

Things often do not come across as intended on the internet

My Roadster keeps my purist cred(to me and others). It only has ABS and a couple of airbags, it's a 2 seater with classic proportions and a joke of a trunk. There are others who call themselves purists for having something even SMALLER with carbs, manual steering, and roll up windows. I can be a purist who also owns a daily driver. Daily drivers have different things that define them.

EddieB commented: January 2, 2013, 12:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Yes, there is opinion and you can have your opinion. You just kind of stated it as if fact.

In my opinion, you are not a purist...

You are not a purist...

Things often do not come across as intended on the internet

My Roadster keeps my purist cred(to me and others). It only has ABS and a couple of airbags, it's a 2 seater with classic proportions and a joke of a trunk. There are others who call themselves purists for having something even SMALLER with carbs, manual steering, and roll up windows. I can be a purist who also owns a daily driver. Daily drivers have different things that define them.

+1 Heck we could say you're not a purist unless you have a manual transmission. But that doesn't make it so either. It's what you like.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 12:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddieB

+1 Heck we could say you're not a purist unless you have a manual transmission. But that doesn't make it so either. It's what you like.

Well, both of my cars have manuals, it's one of the purist elements. BUT, you do not automatically not become a purist for driving an automatic. There are plenty of purist driving experiences such as the PDK Porsches, Ferrari 458 Italia or E92 M3 DCTs that are still very much drivers cars.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 12:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Yes, there is opinion and you can have your opinion. You just kind of stated it as if fact.

In my opinion, you are not a purist...

You are not a purist...

Things often do not come across as intended on the internet

My Roadster keeps my purist cred(to me and others). It only has ABS and a couple of airbags, it's a 2 seater with classic proportions and a joke of a trunk. There are others who call themselves purists for having something even SMALLER with carbs, manual steering, and roll up windows. I can be a purist who also owns a daily driver. Daily drivers have different things that define them.

Of course it was my opinion, if you can't tell a fact from an opinion, there is not much I can say.

BTW, you don't have to remind me, I know I am not a purist, until such time I buy something like a Porsche 911, or Cayman as a weekend car.

I will then probably have to downgrade my 328i to something like a Cruze Eco as a highway commuter. But I will not go to a Cruze forum telling everyone I am a driving purist, despite the fact I know the Cruze Eco is actually a fun car to drive.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 1:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Of course it was my opinion, if you can't tell a fact from an opinion, there is not much I can say.

BTW, you don't have to remind me, I know I am not a purist, until such time I buy something like a Porsche 911, or Cayman as a weekend car.

I will then probably have to downgrade my 328i to something like a Cruze Eco as a highway commuter. But I will not go to a Cruze forum telling everyone I am a driving purist, despite the fact I know the Cruze Eco is actually a fun car to drive.

I can tell the difference, but I also can take offense when someone makes a statement in a very D-bag tone/demeanor

Again, purists can be purists and own cars that make the cut. But they still can have daily drivers.

I know people who have things like Forresters or even Geo Metros for an every day car that have things in the garage that leave me drooling.

I guess I could see your point if I bought my F30 as my purists car, my only car and wanted it to be all things that I get from my other car. That is not my intention or BMW's with a base 3 series.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 1:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I can tell the difference, but I also can take offense when someone makes a statement in a very D-bag tone/demeanor

Again, purists can be purists and own cars that make the cut. But they still can have daily drivers.

They can certainly have daily drivers, but they should not go to the daily driver's forums and claim their daily drivers prove they are purists, doing so could show their D-bag side

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 1:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

They can certainly have daily drivers, but they should not go to the daily driver's forums and claim their daily drivers prove they are purists, doing so could show their D-bag side

First:

I can post in this forum all I want, just as you are allowed to even though you do not have the car designated by this forum. Out of the two of us, that puts you closer to the D-bag side.

Now on your point, if I posted in my E36/7 forum without owning one, talking bad about their cars while extolling the virtues of my F30-that is D-Bag city!

Second:

I do not recall stating that my daily driver is what I regard as the vehicle that would define or not define me as a purist.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 1:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I do not recall stating that my daily driver is what I regard as the vehicle that would define or not define me as a purist.

So it turns out we do not disagree after all on this, if you agree with me with this aspect of the F30, can you still call me a D-bag simply because I don't drive an F30?

If anything, E90, or going back to E46, have more claim of a purist intent, than F30. If you don't believe me, just ask BJ.

EddieB commented: January 2, 2013, 1:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

So it turns out we do not disagree after all on this, if you agree with me with this aspect of the F30, can you still call me a D-bag simply because I don't drive an F30?

If anything, E90, or going back to E46, have more claim of a purist intent, than F30. If you don't believe me, just ask BJ.

LOL. Does D-bag stand for "douche" or "dick" BTW?

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 1:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

So it turns out we do not disagree after all on this, if you agree with me with this aspect of the F30, can you still call me a D-bag simply because I don't drive an F30?

If anything, E90, or going back to E46, have more claim of a purist intent, than F30. If you don't believe me, just ask BJ.

I have made no claims of you being or not being a purist. I don't know enough about you or need to on an internet forum.

I also did not call you a D-bag for not driving an F30. You implied I could be considered a D-bag for stating my purist cred on another forum-one not directly related to the car I care about, but my DD. I was stating that the closest thing to your hypothetical is what you are doing already

I think it is a bit of accepted knowledge that every generation of small BMW dating back from the 2002 has gotten bigger, heavier, more civilized, a bit farther away from the purists ideal. But that does not make any one iteration a complete failure to the purist mindset. Again, you give a little here and you get a lot more of something else in return.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 1:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddieB

LOL. Does D-bag stand for "douche" or "dick" BTW?

I dunno about everyone else, I use D-bag to mean DOUCHE-BAG.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 1:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I have made no claims of you being or not being a purist. I don't know enough about you or need to on an internet forum.

I also did not call you a D-bag for not driving an F30. You implied I could be considered a D-bag for stating my purist cred on another forum-one not directly related to the car I care about, but my DD. I was stating that the closest thing to your hypothetical is what you are doing already

I think it is a bit of accepted knowledge that every generation of small BMW dating back from the 2002 has gotten bigger, heavier, more civilized, a bit farther away from the purists ideal. But that does not make any one iteration a complete failure to the purist mindset. Again, you give a little here and you get a lot more of something else in return.

I think BJ, who claims to represent 98% of the F30 drivers, will disagree with you. According to him, the F30 finally moves away from a pretending purist car, and bravo for that.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 1:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I think BJ, who claims to represent 98% of the F30 drivers, will disagree with you. According to him, the F30 finally moves away from a pretending purist car, and bravo for that.

Since being here, you have been nothing but obsessed with BJ and taking what he says and flinging back as to be clever.

Be your own person, make your own arguments.

I can say clearly there are some things I agree with BJ on and others not so much. He bought one of the most polar opposite cars one can buy within the same series. He got what he wanted, the experience he wanted and it's quite different than mine.

I do not need to be pigeon held into what a BMW driver is, or what a F30 328 driver is. I buy what I like, I do what I like. I ordered a bare bones manual-many would advise against that. The minute I broke the car in, it was on the dyno-many won't even know what that means. I instantly began modifying it, making it sound better, go faster, look better, handle better-most would cringe and think only of the warranty. I already pulled out the wood trim myself and swapped in the aluminum-most would leave things as is and surely pay the dealer to do it if they did. I also plan on Auto-x, track days, and maybe even a few 1/4 passes in between the occasional redlight 0-70 pull.

I care not one bit about what people would do or think I should do with my car purchase. I really did not want to buy a new BMW as I have had bad experiences with every modern BMW encounter as who the typical owner(aside from a guy at the parts counter who was picking up parts for his Z4 who insisted I track my car with the CCA). Only the fact that my CC was up for replacement and the F30 N20/6mt combo made for such a good lateral move, that is the only reason I gave in to buy such a me-too car.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 2:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Since being here, you have been nothing but obsessed with BJ and taking what he says and flinging back as to be clever.

Be your own person, make your own arguments.

I can say clearly there are some things I agree with BJ on and others not so much. He bought one of the most polar opposite cars one can buy within the same series. He got what he wanted, the experience he wanted and it's quite different than mine.

I do not need to be pigeon held into what a BMW driver is, or what a F30 328 driver is. I buy what I like, I do what I like. I ordered a bare bones manual-many would advise against that. The minute I broke the car in, it was on the dyno-many won't even know what that means. I instantly began modifying it, making it sound better, go faster, look better, handle better-most would cringe and think only of the warranty. I already pulled out the wood trim myself and swapped in the aluminum-most would leave things as is and surely pay the dealer to do it if they did. I also plan on Auto-x, track days, and maybe even a few 1/4 passes in between the occasional redlight 0-70 pull.

I care not one bit about what people would do or think I should do with my car purchase. I really did not want to buy a new BMW as I have had bad experiences with every modern BMW encounter as who the typical owner(aside from a guy at the parts counter who was picking up parts for his Z4 who insisted I track my car with the CCA). Only the fact that my CC was up for replacement and the F30 N20/6mt combo made for such a good lateral move, that is the only reason I gave in to buy such a me-too car.

I think you have just proved me, sainter, and BJ's points, all in one post, not a small accomplishment I must say.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 2:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I think you have just proved me, sainter, and BJ's points, all in one post, not a small accomplishment I must say.

Thanks for proving my point-yet again

EddieB commented: January 2, 2013, 2:21 pm

I posted this impression of the F30 in another thread, but I think it's relevant here. As my immediate point of reference was an E46 6 speed manual coupe that I drove for 6 years. A purist car of sorts.

Took the 335i through Old Topanga and back yesterday aftenoon, now that it's broken in. It felt every bit a tossable 3 Series. I wasn't sure how it would corner on some of those really tight twisties since the Sport susension is more "refined" than the M. The run flats scrubbed a bit on really hard corners, but were remarkably good considering all the flack you here about them. Car felt very flat in the turns.

The turbo really pulls on the climb and of course the cabin is much quieter than the M3. Steering in Sports mode felt tight and stable.

There is one really sharp jog to the right going Northbound not far from New Topanga. The rock hillside is very close to the lane. It put the pucker factor in when driving my old 530i. One of the first things I noticed when I got an E46 325i was you could power on around that bend and remain in your lane quite easily. My first experience with a 3er. The F30 has that same feel.

Thinking about it, I've been driving that canyon since 1971 starting with motorcycles and various cars through the years. A good reference for one's ride.

Purist? All I know is I don't miss the M3. Seems to me, if all you wanted was a DD any F30 will fill the bill. But that doesn't mean if you love driving in more than a straight line an F30 is not a purist kind of sport sedan.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 2:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddieB

I posted this impression of the F30 in another thread, but I think it's relevant here. As my immediate point of reference was an E46 6 speed manual coupe that I drove for 6 years. A purist car of sorts.

Took the 335i through Old Topanga and back yesterday aftenoon, now that it's broken in. It felt every bit a tossable 3 Series. I wasn't sure how it would corner on some of those really tight twisties since the Sport susension is more "refined" than the M. The run flats scrubbed a bit on really hard corners, but were remarkably good considering all the flack you here about them. Car felt very flat in the turns.

The turbo really pulls on the climb and of course the cabin is much quieter than the M3. Steering in Sports mode felt tight and stable.

There is one really sharp jog to the right going Northbound not far from New Topanga. The rock hillside is very close to the lane. It put the pucker factor in when driving my old 530i. One of the first things I noticed when I got an E46 325i was you could power on around that bend and remain in your lane quite easily. My first experience with a 3er. The F30 has that same feel.

Thinking about it, I've been driving that canyon since 1971 starting with motorcycles and various cars through the years. A good reference for one's ride.

Purist? All I know is I don't miss the M3. Seems to me, if all you wanted was a DD any F30 will fill the bill. But that doesn't mean if you love driving in more than a straight line an F30 is not a purist kind of sport sedan.

Good input,

I think you can support, that if something was "decreased" in the F30, it was not drastic and decreasing is not the same as eliminating. And while somethings were decreased, others were increased in a positive way.

iPraetorian commented: January 2, 2013, 2:32 pm

I have to say, and I'm new to this forum but not to BMWs - I LOVE my F30. I had a 2007 328i Coupe and loved that car as well. But this new one, is utterly divine. Aesthetically, it's a head turner. I particularly love the looks Audi and MB owners give. Honestly, owning a BMW is like rediscovering that part of your soul that has been missing or is dormant and waking it up. Driving to work is no longer a commute, it's a straight out adventure.
Now, the coupe had its advantages no doubt, but I do not feel like I've lost anything going to a sedan. The F30 performs blissfully. The ONLY issue I have is the automatic turn off when the car is idling in traffic or at a light. But a simple button click fixes that.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 2:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iPraetorian

I have to say, and I'm new to this forum but not to BMWs - I LOVE my F30. I had a 2007 328i Coupe and loved that car as well. But this new one, is utterly divine. Aesthetically, it's a head turner. I particularly love the looks Audi and MB owners give. Honestly, owning a BMW is like rediscovering that part of your soul that has been missing or is dormant and waking it up. Driving to work is no longer a commute, it's a straight out adventure.
Now, the coupe had its advantages no doubt, but I do not feel like I've lost anything going to a sedan. The F30 performs blissfully. The ONLY issue I have is the automatic turn off when the car is idling in traffic or at a light. But a simple button click fixes that.

You can have the auto-off re-coded by your dealer for free. I had mine done before delivery. It stays off. Only when going into ECo-Pro is it re-activated, one press of the OFF button and it remembers until the next time only re-active if you leave EcoPro and go back to it.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 2:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Thanks for proving my point-yet again

I never proved your point, you did it for yourself. Sadly you proved BJ's point that your are not representative of the F30 drivers, in fact far from it.

According to BJ, 98% of F30 drivers drive it in part because they care about how they project their images to their neighbors, how comfortable it is for their own families, and how good the advanced gadgets are so they can play while driving.

In fact a base F30, according to BJ, is for pretenders, who has no financial means but still want to be in the club.

Since you are clearly not a typical F30 driver, and you don't care what people think of your choices, I say simply driving an F30 does not give you much authority in this forum.

I will go so far to say, you are even less representative of the F30 drivers compared to those who drive the E90 and may have a few negative things to say about the F30.

Sainter for example, will gladly drive an F30 335i. He just does not care for the 2.0T. He is actually more in line with the F30 crowd than you are.

My point is, just because you drive an F30, does not make you better suited for the F30 forum, than an E90 driver.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 2:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I never proved your point, you did it for yourself. Sadly you proved BJ's point that your are not representative of the F30 drivers, in fact far from it.

According to BJ, 98% of F30 drivers drive it in part because they care about how they project their images to their neighbors, how comfortable it is for their own families, and how good the advanced gadgets are so they can play while driving.

In fact a base F30, according to BJ, is for pretenders, who has no financial means but still want to be in the club.

Since you are clearly not a typical F30 driver, and you don't care what people think of your choices, I say simply driving an F30 does not give you much authority in this forum.

I will go so far to say, you are even less representative of the F30 drivers compared to those who drive the E90 and may have a few negative things to say about the F30.

I never claimed to be a part of any group. I do not care about the 98% and who said what makes up those people anyway. YOU did, you came to me with this 98% crap, only you want to stand behind it that BJ said it, and to use that to validate yourself against him or to me, it's really silly. You are conversing with ME-not BJ.

I stated you should make your own arguments and that most posts you make in this section have to reference BJ it seems. Just as I explain that, your reply to me again, mentions others and BJ. Hence, proving my point. And again with your latest.

I have had good back and forth in this thread and in this section. Look at my replies, I do not rely on other people's statements, I am confident enough in what I am trying to get across. I also do not scour the net for figures and magazine tests.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 3:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I never claimed to be a part of any group.

You claimed those who do not drive F30 have less of credibility in the F30 forum.

I am saying you have demonstrated you are the very fringe of the F30 drivers. For that reason you don't get to dismiss someone just because he drives an E90, not an F30. Especially consider this is an F30 vs. E90 thread.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 3:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

You claimed those who do not drive F30 have less of credibility in the F30 forum.

I am saying you have demonstrated you are the very fringe of the F30 drivers. For that reason you don't get to dismiss someone just because he drives an E90, not an F30. Especially consider this is an F30 vs. E90 thread.

You made a remark implying d-bag status to go to another forum and clout one car over another. YOU.

My counter was that if anyone was going to be guilty of such a thing it would be you as your behavior in this forum resembles the hypothetical you tried to involve me in.

So I am not dismissing you, an E90 driver, I am not dismissing anyone. If anything, I dismiss those who come into this thread or this forum who have bias enough to speak matter of fact-ly when admitting to NEVER even driving an F30. Aside from that, post all you want. If you make yourself seem silly, that's on you.

Again, you may have BJ on the brain. He is the one who tells you and Saintor to go away and never come back. I don't care so much.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 3:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You made a remark implying d-bag status to go to another forum and clout one car over another. YOU.

My counter was that if anyone was going to be guilty of such a thing it would be you as your behavior in this forum resembles the hypothetical you tried to involve me in.

So I am not dismissing you, an E90 driver, I am not dismissing anyone. If anything, I dismiss those who come into this thread or this forum who have bias enough to speak matter of fact-ly when admitting to NEVER even driving an F30. Aside from that, post all you want. If you make yourself seem silly, that's on you.

Again, you may have BJ on the brain. He is the one who tells you and Saintor to go away and never come back. I don't care so much.

Unfortunately now that you have showed you are on the very fringe of the F30 group, by the nature of it, your opinions are less of value to the majority of the F30 drivers.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 3:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Unfortunately now that you have showed you are on the very fringe of the F30 group, by the nature of it, your opinions are less of value to the majority of the F30 drivers.

So?

This has no affect on me.

People have free will to decide if the information provided is for them or not.

So far my experiences, such as dyno'ing and developing of the Rogue Catback has netted lots of PM's and inquiries. I have also now posted a DIY on removing interior trim panels. There are F30 drivers looking for information and experience. I have info and experience-it does not have to connect with anyone. I am not insulted if someone does not need that info or chooses not to read something I post.

Maybe you are, or others. I am going to post the same whether 100 people read it-find an interest in it or no one does.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 3:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

So?

This has no affect on me.

People have free will to decide if the information provided is for them or not.

So far my experiences, such as dyno'ing and developing of the Rogue Catback has netted lots of PM's and inquiries. I have also now posted a DIY on removing interior trim panels. There are F30 drivers looking for information and experience. I have info and experience-it does not have to connect with anyone. I am not insulted if someone does not need that info or chooses not to read something I post.

Maybe you are, or others. I am going to post the same whether 100 people read it-find an interest in it or no one does.

Since your treatments to your F30 do not present much value to the majority of the F30, or potential F30 drivers, I hope you do not try to dismiss someone simply because he does not own an F30.

Yes, you did try to dismiss ones who do not drive F30. This is from me who actually did several mods on my own 328i and did several autox events. But this is not what this thread is about. Bragging about it does no good for this discussion, it only proves BJ's cynical point of view, which I do not share.

Not confused enough?

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 3:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Since your treatments to your F30 do not present much value to the majority of the F30, or potential F30 drivers, I hope you do not try to dismiss someone simply because he does not own an F30.

Yes, you did try to dismiss ones who do not drive F30. This is from me who actually did several mods on my own 328i and did several autox events. But this is not what this thread is about. Bragging about it does no good for this discussion, it only proves BJ's cynical point of view, which I do not share.

Not confused enough?

You have your opinions.

Others can decide for themselves what value there is or not is in anything I say or what kind or percentage of F30 owner I am. There is a thread on the other forum where we have a growing number of people tracking their F30's and having great experiences. The semantics of what percentage that is of BMW owners, no one cares. Its true today with the F30 and going back decades. The people who really take these cars to the limit is a very small percentage. It is not me alone. But I also do not speak for some made up majority either.

I do not and have no dismissed anyone who does not own an F30. I dismiss those who speak to the F30 as if they have first hand experience when admitting to not having first hand experience. This is not unique to cars, anyone who walks into a conversation as an expert when they have no experience in what they speak-yep, quite annoying. It is not my unique feeling either, I share it with quite a few people.

And again, another post where you have to mention BJ as if it's the word of the day of Pee-Wee's Playhouse.

Reply only if you feel you have something to add to this, this back and forth scrutinizing who I am personally as an F30 owner is kind of wasted bandwidth. I have no interest in analyzing you, BJ, or much of anyone else here to such a degree. I really don't need you to get hung up on me next the way you already seem to do with BJ.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 4:05 pm

I am not aware anyone who is commenting about F30 but has no first hand experience with it.

It all depends on the subject. Obviously if he is commenting on the look of the F30, he dose not have to drive it first, or if he is comparing the EPA mpg between the F30 N20 and F10 N52, he does not have to log the mpg in an F30 for a week before he can speak on the subject.

Or if he is talking about 5-60 time, not driving it does not dismiss what he has to say, because he is referring to facts provided by the mags.

But if he is discussing the drive feel, yes he has less credibility in this subject unless he had driven it.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 4:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I am not aware anyone who is commenting about F30 but has no first hand experience with it.

It all depends on the subject. Obviously if he is commenting on the look of the F30, he dose not have to drive it first, or if he is comparing the EPA mpg between the F30 N20 and F10 N52, he does not have to log the mpg in an F30 for a week before he can speak on the subject.

Or if he is talking about 5-60 time, not driving it does not dismiss what he has to say, because he is referring to facts provided by the mags.

But if he is discussing the drive feel, yes he has less credibility in this subject unless he had driven it.

There have been countless posts where people comment in relation to driving/steering feel that start with, "I have not actually driven an F30 yet...but".

All of your Saintor figure rehashing is unneeded. Again, why do you seem to be speaking for other people who are more than competent at speaking for themselves.

Saintor had figures I did not agree with, and he did not agree with mine. Just because I did not agree it did not mean anything about his ownership or lack of ownership of an F30. All he was doing was digging up magazine specifications to his liking while dismissing other figures of my liking from the very same article. No need for you to turn it into something more, this F30 owner racism where you are not allowed to speak or have an opinion contrary to mine lol.

You are making it out like I was a victor in all of this, a bully, and that people came to my aid and no one to the aid of those with an opposing view. I bet the people on the other side still think I was wrong and they are right which makes your statements seem null and void.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 4:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Reply only if you feel you have something to add to this

BTW, it is not for you to decide what he can or cannot say, didn't you just say that?

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 4:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

BTW, it is not for you to decide what he can or cannot say, didn't you just say that?

But it was my opinion lol.

If you read it clearly, it says post IF YOU feel you have something to add. How does that make me the one to decide?

It was my hope that you would stop-kind of a challenge to move on.

It did not work

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 4:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

There have been countless posts where people comment in relation to driving/steering feel that start with, "I have not actually driven an F30 yet...but".

Show me a few of such posts in this thread, I am sure it is not hard to do since there are countless of them.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 4:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Show me a few of such posts in this thread, I am sure it is not hard to do since there are countless of them.

You think this E90 vs F30 debate is specific to this thread? Specific to this section, this board?

It's exhausting.

EddieB commented: January 2, 2013, 4:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Show me a few of such posts in this thread, I am sure it is not hard to do since there are countless of them.

I'm not an F30 driver, but I play one on TV.....

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 4:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You think this E90 vs F30 debate is specific to this thread? Specific to this section, this board?

It's exhausting.

Yet you have no trouble talking

I think they are relevant to the thread and the forum, differ only in degrees of relevance.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 4:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Yet you have no trouble talking

I think they are relevant to the thread and the forum, differ only in degrees of relevance.

OK.

You asked me to quote each time someone posts about the F30 after admitting to not drive one. I will keep updating this as I spend the next HOUR combing lol.

Here you go:

While I like CA posts, this is still an example of starting out an F30 reply:

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I haven't driven an F30 yet so I really don't have a valid opinion between the two.
I have seen that a number of automotive jounalists whose opinion I respect feel that the F30 improved on the E90 in many ways but that the E90 had better "feel" than the F30.

From an E90 vs F30 thread on F30post that Saintor took part in:

Quote:

Originally Posted by E-9-D

Until I drive an F30, I won't truly know how I feel about the driving experience, but from what I've read, it seems like the experience has been watered down a bit. Don't like what they've done to the steering. The engine specs don't excite me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyWalker_J

I havent driven an F30 (E92 owner) and from the sounds of it I'll probably just hold on to my E92 until something better comes along.*

What people are saying about new BMWs is that they lack active feedback in the steering and just feels disconnected.*

We'll see what they do with the new 4 but its starting to sound like if you want a legitimate sports sedan out of BMW you'll need to buy something with an M badge.

Going back to my earlier replies, I also took offense to people who drove a base 328 non Sport suspension cars and compared it to their N54 and N55 and or their Sport suspension E90s. I won't quote all of those.

The moral of the story is, drive an F30 setup most like your current car. Then you can judge and compare in the most fair and realistic way. If you hate the F30 after that, great, who am I to judge. If that is one thing from me I would like to leave this thread with, it's that.

captainaudio commented: January 2, 2013, 5:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Here you go:

While I like CA posts, this is still an example of starting out an F30 reply:

.

Here is my post in its entirety:

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I haven't driven an F30 yet so I really don't have a valid opinion between the two. As for what I read here and elsewhere I take all of that with a grain of salt based on my experience with the RFTs and OEM shocks on the E90. I do know that I preferred the way the sport suspension on the E93 felt compared to the stock suspension after I test drove both but I was totally unprepared for the "Pothole Explosions" (although I was able to solve that issue).
I have seen that a number of automotive jounalists whose opinion I respect feel that the F30 improved on the E90 in many ways but that the E90 had better "feel" than the F30. In a sense that is a moot point since the E90 is no longer available. What would make more sense is to compare the F30 to competitors that are currently available and in that respect it seems to be holding its own. After my experiences with the 335i and the 750 I will never buy a New York car that does not have an adjustable suspension.

I willl not be buying an F30 (I am sure it is an excellent car but I have no use for a small sedan) but will look at the 4 Series Cabrio when it was released. I will also look at a number of other cars and an particularly interested in the new Jaguar F-Type.

I really don't understand the complaints about the heavy steering in the E9x. I honestly never noticed it and I drive a wide variety of cars every year,

When I was quoting other people I made it clear that I was quoting other people and that I did not necessarily agree or disagree with them in cases where I had no first hand experience,

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 5:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Here is my post in its entirety:

When I was quoting other people I made it clear that I was quoting other people and that I did not necessarily agree or disagree with them in cases where I had no first hand experience,

CA

LOL, I knew quoting you would bring you out into this.

It was the first post I saw 1 minute into combing this thread and it started with you saying you had never driven an F30 hehe.

Be assured, I like your posts quite a bit, they do not show bias and are very well informed.

But that sentence was too good of a fit to ignore.

I stopped 10 minutes into this search, I got exhausted by the Beden1 back and forths and got a headache.

Points have been made.

My favorite point, once again. Drive an f30 closest to what you own now. If you love your N54 or N55, dont drive an N20 and say how it's not as fast as your E90. Have a modified or Sport suspension E90, dont drive your base F30 loaner and say it has tons of body roll compared to your E90.

I think that's more than fair.

captainaudio commented: January 2, 2013, 5:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

LOL, I knew quoting you would bring you out into this.

It was the first post I saw 1 minute into combing this thread and it started with you saying you had never driven an F30 hehe.

Be assured, I like your posts quite a bit, they do not show bias and are very well informed.

But that sentence was too good of a fit to ignore.

I stopped 10 minutes into this search, I got exhausted by the Beden1 back and forths and got a headache.

Points have been made.

My favorite point, once again. Drive an f30 closest to what you own now. If you love your N54 or N55, dont drive an N20 and say how it's not as fast as your E90. Have a modified or Sport suspension E90, dont drive your base F30 loaner and say it has tons of body roll compared to your E90.

I think that's more than fair.

I actually was about to quote myself but you beat me to it.

It is obvious however that there are a number of posters here who are posting based on what they read rather than on their own experience.
It is also obvious that a number of the comments on "handling" and "road feel" are coming from people who have limited understanding of vehicle dynamics, have little or no experience with driving at anywhere close to the limits and who couldn't tell you the difference between oversteer and understeer, let alone how to correct for it, without going to Wikipedia. There is nothing wrong with that but those people need to realize that we are not all talking about the same thing when we discuss handling. I, for example, do not consider the ease with which the steering wheel can be turned while parallel parking to be part of handling.

All cars feel like they are cornering on rails if you are going slow enough. Some cars can retain the "cornering on rails" feeling at higher speeds than others. An important part of handling is how the car reacts as you approach the limits of traction, how much advance warning you get as the limits are approached and how well the car reacts to corrective actions.

Better handling does not necessarily equate to higher track speeds. A case in point would be a Spec Miata. There are many more powerful cars than Miatas that may be faster around certain tracks that do not handle anywhere near as well.

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 6:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I actually was about to quote myself but you beat me to it.

It is obvious however that there are a number of posters here who are posting based on what they read rather than on their own experience.
It is also obvious that a number of the comments on "handling" and "road feel" are coming from people who have limited understanding of vehicle dynamics, have little or no experience with driving at anywhere close to the limits and who couldn't tell you the difference between oversteer and understeer, let alone how to correct for it, without going to Wikipedia. There is nothing wrong with that but those people need to realize that we are not all talking about the same thing when we discuss handling. I, for example, do not consider the ease with which the steering wheel can be turned while parallel parking to be part of handling.

All cars feel like they are cornering on rails if you are going slow enough. Some cars can retain the "cornering on rails" feeling at higher speeds than others. An important part of handling is how the car reacts as you approach the limits of traction, how much advance warning you get as the limits are approached and how well the car reacts to corrective actions.

Better handling does not necessarily equate to higher track speeds. A case in point would be a Spec Miata. There are many more powerful cars than Miatas that may be faster around certain tracks that do not handle anywhere near as well.

CA

You should post more often

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 6:48 pm

All three posts quoted above are legit comments, they all admitted they had not driven an F30, but commented on the steering feedback, based on some level of consensus by others.

I personally will not hold people to such a high standard that they must first drive the car, before they can comment on something people have pretty much built a consensus on, in this case, the steering feedback, or lack of it.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 7:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

All three posts quoted above are legit comments, they all admitted they had not driven an F30, but commented on the steering feedback, based on some level of consensus by others.

I personally will not hold people to such a high standard that they must first drive the car, before they can comment on something people have pretty much built a consensus on, in this case, the steering feedback, or lack of it.

If a person was to make a decision, and was wanting information to help decide between alternatives...

Lets say your company says we are going to give you a raise if you relocate to one of two different states.

You ask around for feedback.

There are people who say:

1) I have been to neither of those states, I cannot say
2 ) I have only been to one of the states, so I cannot say which is better, but here is my account of one of them
3) I have been to both states numerous times, they both have a lot going for them, here is what you may or may not prefer-this is my preference
4) I have only been to one of the states, but I read an article somewhere that the other state is terrible.

Now to me, 1-3 are honest and helpful. 4-can be helpful-but a bit biased. Now what happens if you go around and ask more and more people, but person number 4 walks over each time and repeats themselves over and over.

Let me tell you, many people posting in this section are that way, and if you do not find it annoying-that is great for you. These same people are going out of their way to repeat themselves in THIS section. People like me, our job is not to police the internet and find every corner where someone does not agree with us on the F30. But coming to the F30 section and constantly repeating the same thing when admitting you have not done your homework-that you are just going to go sheep-style and go by the magazines and others first hand accounts-yep, really annoying. But you feel entitled to do so. I am just as entitled to be annoyed and counter with first hand experience of driving the cars in questions, not just reading about it, or what that guy said.

There are other people in here that do find it annoying too.

gomichaelkgo commented: January 2, 2013, 7:23 pm

Moving the steering wheel button from the right side of the column to the left side did NOTHING for its useability. It can't be seen, and the on/off state cannot be felt with the hands.

Several times I've wondered if I pressed it hard enough to activate it. The only way to tell is with a dental mirror, the door open, or making a sharp turn.

Put it on the front of the steering wheel like on the E39. For those who don't order the option, turn it inot an HVAC recirc button or something.

Or put it on the top of the steering column where at least it would be visible.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 7:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomichaelkgo

Moving the steering wheel button from the right side of the column to the left side did NOTHING for its useability. It can't be seen, and the on/off state cannot be felt with the hands.

Several times I've wondered if I pressed it hard enough to activate it. The only way to tell is with a dental mirror, the door open, or making a sharp turn.

Put it on the front of the steering wheel like on the E39. For those who don't order the option, turn it inot an HVAC recirc button or something.

Or put it on the top of the steering column where at least it would be visible.

Never found that to annoy me.

What about the trunk pop button? Anyone else find that to be ergonomically terrible? Our Saab has it right under the door pull down from the window switches, I never have to give it a second thought to find it.

jlukja commented: January 2, 2013, 7:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Never found that to annoy me.

What about the trunk pop button? Anyone else find that to be ergonomically terrible? Our Saab has it right under the door pull down from the window switches, I never have to give it a second thought to find it.

I agree with this. I find it more by feel than looking for it with my eyes. Glad its the only control button in the area.

dtc100 commented: January 2, 2013, 10:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Lets say your company says we are going to give you a raise if you relocate to one of two different states.

You ask around for feedback.

There are people who say:

1) I have been to neither of those states, I cannot say
2 ) I have only been to one of the states, so I cannot say which is better, but here is my account of one of them
3) I have been to both states numerous times, they both have a lot going for them, here is what you may or may not prefer-this is my preference
4) I have only been to one of the states, but I read an article somewhere that the other state is terrible.

Now to me, 1-3 are honest and helpful. 4-can be helpful-but a bit biased. Now what happens if you go around and ask more and more people, but person number 4 walks over each time and repeats themselves over and over.

If you already know the answers but just go around ask again and again, you could be considered a jerk.

It is assumed when someone asks the question, he does not already have the answer before, therefore all 4 above have the same levels of legitimacy as if they were given for the first time, for the guy who asked the question that is.

Ask any good salesperson, he/she will tell you they answer the same questions as if those were asked for the very first time, even though they had answered those questions the 1,000th time.

The fact you have heard the same answers too many times before is irrelevant, they were not trying to answer your questions.

Jamesonsviggen commented: January 2, 2013, 11:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

If you already know the answers but just go around ask again and again, you could be considered a jerk.

It is assumed when someone asks the question, he does not already have the answer before, therefore all 4 above have the same levels of legitimacy as if they were given for the first time, for the guy who asked the question that is.

Ask any good salesperson, he/she will tell you they answer the same questions as if those were asked for the very first time, even though they had answered those questions the 1,000th time.

The fact you have heard the same answers too many times before is irrelevant, they were not trying to answer your questions.

That's what you took from the example?

It wasn't a yes or no question, not something one person answers and you are on your way. You ask a variety of people for feedback. The guy who follows you around as you do so, repeating himself each time(guy #4)...yep-that's a jerk. Now maybe you miss-understood and that you only asked 4 people, no I gave 4 examples of the answers you may get. This is a big decision, you are polling your entire office, maybe even friends and family. This whole time though, the type mentioned as #4, follows you and repeats his opinion(from 2nd hand info) over and over.

I am absolutely done with dialog with you in this thread. I too often feel like I am talking to myself and it's getting no one anywhere or bettering a debate.

I have tried to hit home my goal grain of information that if someone is to really want to compare an E90 to an F30 to get a real picture of the car for THEMSELVES and drive what best represents the car they currently have.

dtc100 commented: January 3, 2013, 12:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

That's what you took from the example?

It wasn't a yes or no question, not something one person answers and you are on your way. You ask a variety of people for feedback. The guy who follows you around as you do so, repeating himself each time(guy #4)...yep-that's a jerk.

You need to ask yourself the question, why several people here like to follow you around, not the OP. You probably brought it upon yourself. Don't get annoyed so easily, maybe people will stop following you around.

pkim1079 commented: January 3, 2013, 2:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

OK.

You asked me to quote each time someone posts about the F30 after admitting to not drive one. I will keep updating this as I spend the next HOUR combing lol.

Here you go:

While I like CA posts, this is still an example of starting out an F30 reply:

From an E90 vs F30 thread on F30post that Saintor took part in:

Going back to my earlier replies, I also took offense to people who drove a base 328 non Sport suspension cars and compared it to their N54 and N55 and or their Sport suspension E90s. I won't quote all of those.

The moral of the story is, drive an F30 setup most like your current car. Then you can judge and compare in the most fair and realistic way. If you hate the F30 after that, great, who am I to judge. If that is one thing from me I would like to leave this thread with, it's that.

Hows it going jameson. Some ppl on here will talk about "feel" or have gripes with its "softness" or lack of stopping power or "body roll" when they drive their cars strictly in the city.

Ive heard oh f30s have so much more body roll than my e90. I have pictures from a trackday that show plenty of e90s with just as much or even more body roll lol. the same pictures also show an e36 m3 with major body roll (and those are the true track beasts right?) There is a difference between a car that has body roll yet feels planted on the outside vs a car with bodyroll that feels like its gonna tip over or just wont turn. I dont understand this.

What does someone mean when saying the steering is "soft"? its not like you cant feel the car lose grip and correct it. Im not an f1 driver. I dont even want stiff steering when im driving home or parking. I had an mr2 with no power steering before. Feedback was great but a steering wheel that twitches on every single crack in the pavement is a little too much. Press the driver mode button and there you go its stiff again. Get wider tires and itll stiffen up some more.

Ppl cant honestly speak to a car's performance levels driving to work or the grocery store can they? (even if you take "hard" left/right turns lol.) I know i couldnt. I only take in the feedback from experienced drivers (at the track) as well as feedback from weekend track whores. I wish more f30s came out so that we could get honest input on how much more perf you are actually getting with msport or sport line or vs the e90. Im a bit disappointed with the lack of ppl with f30s that track. On the other forum there isnt even an autox track thread!! Although Ive seen a guy bring out an f30 loaner to autocross ha. These cars do well at the track out of the box (get rid of funflats) and any negative "feel" comments are subjective.

The e90 and f30 are both great cars. Ive had a high hp evo with upgraded suspension which handled decently but that **** still understeered. Turn **** let off gas! turn **** let off gas!! In my BASE 328i i already felt that it turned in a lot better than my evo. I may be slower around the track but it has better balance and a smoothness to it that the evo didnt have. this f30 would rip **** up if it had upgraded suspension and 400+/400+ to the wheels like my evo did.

Now go get that prototype done already dammit!!!

Please note: This is not meant to offend anyone and are just my personal thoughts. You can talk **** but I probably wont even be in this thread again. If you do actually bother to respond negatively, awesome ! You win!! Congrats! You are better than me!! =)

pkim1079 commented: January 3, 2013, 3:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

It's statements like that which are inaccurate. EPS in the F30 being different in feel, or a REDUCTION in road feel/steering feel does not mean NO feel. (unless by the word LOSS-you meant reduction) The steering/handling balance is still top of the class, it seems only the ATS has shaken that up by admittedly taking a play from the BMW playbook. But also from the PAST BMW playbook was a lack of legroom in the back and other things the F30 got right.

Steering feel/handling/feedback and the straight 6 may have been 3 series hallmarks. These are things(aside from the straight 6's intake and exhaust note) that are not GONE with the F30, only changed-different-slightly lessened. But as even you stated, it's a package. To me it's a recipe...

On one end, the E90 might have had too much pepper or salt for the taste of some, and maybe the portion size was a bit small.

The F30 on the other hand is NOT bland food at a buffet either, large portions and no flavor.

The F30 recipe has great ingredients, some better than used in the E90, but the seasoning like salt and pepper is toned down. A lot more people will eat it without commenting, but some miss the "spice" of the original recipe.

I dont understand. Is someone saying that the e90 was the greatest 3 series of all time? Is that the concensus amongst e90 owners?? Lol

Sorry jameson it didnt quote who you quoted.

Im pretty sure that when the e90 first came out, ppl were saying loss of feel loss of this loss of that. Too big. Too mainstream. So the cycle begins again lol.

SilverX3 commented: January 3, 2013, 4:25 am

So you say f30 is large take home / take away meal

E90 is a sushi ....

dtc100 commented: January 3, 2013, 11:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

That's what you took from the example?

It wasn't a yes or no question, not something one person answers and you are on your way. You ask a variety of people for feedback. The guy who follows you around as you do so, repeating himself each time(guy #4)...yep-that's a jerk. Now maybe you miss-understood and that you only asked 4 people, no I gave 4 examples of the answers you may get. This is a big decision, you are polling your entire office, maybe even friends and family. This whole time though, the type mentioned as #4, follows you and repeats his opinion(from 2nd hand info) over and over.

I am absolutely done with dialog with you in this thread. I too often feel like I am talking to myself and it's getting no one anywhere or bettering a debate.

I have tried to hit home my goal grain of information that if someone is to really want to compare an E90 to an F30 to get a real picture of the car for THEMSELVES and drive what best represents the car they currently have.

I am not surprised the N20 can do well on the track or when pushed to the limit, it has better weight distribution, stiffer chassis, more power than E90.

Unfortunately, the F30 is designed to attract people who are not interested in taking it off the road, or modifying it for better handling. As such the handling most people can talk about at most is when it is pushed to 7 or 8/10 of the limit, on some public twisties when no one is watching. I suspect even that is a rare sight.

Saintor commented: January 3, 2013, 1:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkim1079

Is someone saying that the e90 was the greatest 3 series of all time?

So far it still is, IMO.

Although the E30/36 will do better in autocross, the E9X is certainly the best driving tool, the best athlete overall. Base version can be deceiving but with the right stuff, they are a blast to drive. Not for nothing that many car mags said that it would have won against a F30.

If the E9X is the best driving tool, the best athlete overall, I nominate the E46 for being the "most BMW". Where the E9X can be cold, the E46 was more engaging and more 'emotional'. It said BMW louder.

So where is the F30 in all of this? It is supposed to be an improved E9X. Mixed bag of feelings so far. As mentioned many times earlier in the thread, many aspects are a downgrade, such as the base engine, the steering feel and the too soft damping. Despite the pics, I thought that the cockpit would feel definitely better than the E9X - can't even say this. I hope that BMW will give it within 1-2 years a Civic_2012-treatment, more 'rigueur', like they did revise the highly criticized steering of the 1999-2000 E46. Hopefully the 4XX will fix a few issues.

I don't see any other car of this class that I want more than a new 335i/435i, as a replacement for my E90 (although a new A6 3.0T is also a possibility). But it is sad that we have to settle for less in so many regards and I just can't lie.

Michael Schott commented: January 3, 2013, 1:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

So far it still is, IMO.

Although the E30/36 will do better in autocross, the E9X is certainly the best driving tool, the best athlete overall. Base version can be deceiving but with the right stuff, they are a blast to drive. Not for nothing that many car mags said that it would have won against a F30.

If the E9X is the best driving tool, the best athlete overall, I nominate the E46 for being the "most BMW". Where the E9X can be cold, the E46 was more engaging and more 'emotional'. It said BMW louder.

So where is the F30 in all of this? It is supposed to be an improved E9X. Mixed bag of feelings so far. As mentioned many times earlier in the thread, many aspects are a downgrade, such as the base engine, the steering feel and the too soft damping. Despite the pics, I thought that the cockpit would feel definitely better than the E9X - can't even say this. I hope that BMW will give it within 1-2 years a Civic_2012-treatment, more 'rigueur', like they did revise the highly criticized steering of the 1999-2000 E46. Hopefully the 4XX will fix a few issues.

I don't see any other car of this class that I want more than a new 335i/435i, as a replacement for my E90 (although a new A6 3.0T is also a possibility). But it is sad that we have to settle for less in so many regards and I just can't lie.

I'm on my second E90 but the car has flaws. The interior is not sporty in any way. It's well designed and built but more like a Buick than a BMW. Even in my 2011 the suspension can be harsh due to the stiff damping and RFT's. Not objectionably so but at times it's annoying. There are a few ergonomic faults like the placement of the LED for the rain sensor wipers and the location of the window switches. I also wish it sipped less fuel in the city.

spicytofu commented: January 3, 2013, 2:09 pm

Currently in a 2013 F30 xdrive loaner. I dont track but I can immediately feel the steering is too soft and does not have as much feedback. I can live with it, but I feel like im driving a van. Interior is nicer, better seats, better console position, overall, I am more comfortable than in a e90. I still have the complaint of the idrive screen being too far into the dash. I rather have it integrated in the middle console like other makers. thank god that hump is gone, but not so much better having a slab on the table.

At the end of the day, would I prefer the F30: yes
Is the F30 better than the e90: I would say they are equal if you add/minus all the points

Now the wait for the F32...

dtc100 commented: January 3, 2013, 6:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Despite the pics, I thought that the cockpit would feel definitely better than the E9X - can't even say this. I hope that BMW will give it within 1-2 years a Civic_2012-treatment, more 'rigueur', like they did revise the highly criticized steering of the 1999-2000 E46. Hopefully the 4XX will fix a few issues.

Since F30 is selling very well, I won't hold my breath they will address some of the complaints from the BMW old-timers, particularly the styling. They do now make M Performance parts more available to satisfy the "purists."

For those who must have hydraulic steering, you can alway try a few xdrive models such as 535xi or X1.

boltjaM3s commented: January 3, 2013, 8:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

So far it still is, IMO.

Although the E30/36 will do better in autocross, the E9X is certainly the best driving tool, the best athlete overall. Base version can be deceiving but with the right stuff, they are a blast to drive. Not for nothing that many car mags said that it would have won against a F30.

Ha ha ha ha ha. You've got to be kidding.

Please go back to the E9X forum where this tripe has an audience. The E90 is the mistake between the E46 and the F30. That's it's BMW destiny. Enjoy yours.

BJ

Saintor commented: January 3, 2013, 8:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Ha ha ha ha ha. You've got to be kidding.

Please go back to the E9X forum where this tripe has an audience. The E90 is the mistake between the E46 and the F30. That's it's BMW destiny. Enjoy yours.

BJ

Now we see once more that you don't know what you are talking about. You just like the look of the E46/F30 more. There is more to cars than look.

mynycbimmer commented: January 3, 2013, 9:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Ha ha ha ha ha. You've got to be kidding.

Please go back to the E9X forum where this tripe has an audience. The E90 is the mistake between the E46 and the F30. That's it's BMW destiny. Enjoy yours.

BJ

Outside of F30 forums, I don't really see the F30 having too many fans TBH. I spent a fair bit of time on Audi and MB forums cross shopping before getting my BMW and a lot of the opinions expressed mirror what E90 owners are saying here.

Now we see once more that you don't know what you are talking about. You just like the look of the E46/F30 more. There is more to cars than look.

Oh for crap sake. The E90 was the "mistake" between the two series. I owned an E46 M3 for 6 years, had an E90 loaner for a month and now own an F30.

After some nice spirited driving in my favorite canyon, I can say the F30 handles like a true 3er. The only nit I have is the run flats compared to the Pilots on the M3. But, the run flats are pretty damn good in their own right.

boltjaM3s commented: January 3, 2013, 10:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Now we see once more that you don't know what you are talking about. You just like the look of the E46/F30 more. There is more to cars than look.

I owned both an E90 and an F30. You? Have you even taken a test drive?

I'm not going to bother with the laundry list of improvements that the F30 has over the E90 because it's like talking to a wall. Take the E90, make it better, you have an F30. Simple stuff.

Your car is 7 years old. Step up or step out.

BJ

boltjaM3s commented: January 3, 2013, 11:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mynycbimmer

Outside of F30 forums, I don't really see the F30 having too many fans TBH. I spent a fair bit of time on Audi and MB forums cross shopping before getting my BMW and a lot of the opinions expressed mirror what E90 owners are saying here.

The problem with luxury cars and status symbols is that they have their diehard fans who are immovable. You can sing the praises all day about Omega wristwatches, I'm not switching from Rolex. Audi could make a drop-dead 3 Series killer at half the price; I wouldn't be caught dead in it.

Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.

As stated by numerous reviewers and ex-E90 owners, all BMW had to do with the F30 was "not screw it up". They didn't. They made it significantly better.

BJ

EddieB commented: January 3, 2013, 11:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The problem with luxury cars and status symbols is that they have their diehard fans who are immovable. You can sing the praises all day about Omega wristwatches, I'm not switching from Rolex. Audi could make a drop-dead 3 Series killer at half the price; I wouldn't be caught dead in it.

Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.

As stated by numerous reviewers and ex-E90 owners, all BMW had to do with the F30 was "not screw it up". They didn't. They made it significantly better.

BJ

And they did. But I do like Omega.

captainaudio commented: January 3, 2013, 11:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The problem with luxury cars and status symbols is that they have their diehard fans who are immovable. You can sing the praises all day about Omega wristwatches, I'm not switching from Rolex. Audi could make a drop-dead 3 Series killer at half the price; I wouldn't be caught dead in it.

Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.

As stated by numerous reviewers and ex-E90 owners, all BMW had to do with the F30 was "not screw it up". They didn't. They made it significantly better.

BJ

When it comes to buying the same car brand multiple times, you'd think that the high-end luxury makers have the market cornered. Once you've driven a Mercedes, it seems, you only shop for cars from Mercedes-Benz. Likewise with BMW and Audi, whose customers seem to be fanatically loyal. Still, if you picked any of these brands, you'd be incorrect. According to the latest study on brand loyalty, conducted by JD Power and Associates, the brands with the highest number of repeat buyers are:
- Ford (62% customer retention)
- Honda (62% customer retention)
- Hyundai (60% customer retention)
- Lexus (60% customer retention)
- Toyota (60% customer retention)

BMW, Audi and Mercedes are very close to each other in sales and Lexus, which was the best selling luxury brand for many years, is fighting to regain losses in incurred after the tsunami disaster in Japan. Audi trimmed BMW's lead in 2012 luxury-car sales worldwide to just 2,110 vehicles by the end of August, compared with a 40,000-vehicle deficit at the same time last year. Audi is being fueled by growth in China and in the U.S. in particular, reports Bloomberg.

beden1 commented: January 3, 2013, 11:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I leased both an E90 and an F30. You? Have you even taken a test drive?

I'm not going to bother with the laundry list of improvements that the F30 has over the E90 because it's like talking to a wall. Take the E90, make it better, you have an F30. Simple stuff.

Your car is 7 years old. Step up or step out.

BJ

Fixed!

beden1 commented: January 3, 2013, 11:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The problem with luxury cars and status symbols is that they have their diehard fans who are immovable. You can sing the praises all day about Omega wristwatches, I'm not switching from Rolex. Audi could make a drop-dead 3 Series killer at half the price; I wouldn't be caught dead in it.

Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.

As stated by numerous reviewers and ex-E90 owners, all BMW had to do with the F30 was "not screw it up". They didn't. They made it significantly better.

BJ

The F30 328i includes some amenities that were options on the E90, and while that is better, I have not seen any reviews where the F30 is deemed significantly better (or even better) than the E90 328i. I think the "not screw it up" part is partially true, however.

You really should start including a disclaimer that says something like "purely my opinion", and possibly "BMW F30 super duper fanboy" when you post.

Golfster commented: January 4, 2013, 12:04 am

I cross shop and cross own multiple brands. I'm not loyal to one brand and fortunately an equal opportunity car lover. I have an MB E350 and it serves the purpose for which I purchased it for well, yet I would consider a 5 series when it is time to replace it as well as another E. I have a Cayenne S, but would not likely consider an MB ML as a replacement. I might consider an X5, but with knowledge the new version will be out shortly, I would not likely replace with an X5 until the new model is released. I have a Boxster S, and would be hard pressed to replace that car with SLK, but might consider a Z4, but in all likelihood, replace with another Boxster S. My wife has an Audi, and she would consider multiple brands,including Audi, for a replacement. I'm looking at smaller sedans now, which is where my interest in the F30 comes into play. This will be an addition versus a replacement. I want something larger and less sports car-like than the Boxster, but less sedate than the E350. I'm leaning towards the 335, but would also consider an S4/S5, and would also consider a 4 series if it were available. I would not likely consider a C-Class, and I have no interest in cross shopping Cadillacs. I guess I don't fit the brand loyalist mold.

beden1 commented: January 4, 2013, 12:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I owned both an E90 and an F30. You? Have you even taken a test drive?

I'm not going to bother with the laundry list of improvements that the F30 has over the E90 because it's like talking to a wall. Take the E90, make it better, you have an F30. Simple stuff.

Your car is 7 years old. Step up or step out.

BJ

You remind me of Eric Cartman on South Park because you speak with such authority!

bmw_or_audi commented: January 4, 2013, 12:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Very few people cross-shop off of a 3 Series. Once you drive one, you don't want to go elsewhere. Many people cross-shop a 3 Series off of a Mercedes or an Audi and they can come and go as they please. There are so many more BMW owners than MB or Audi the company simply doesn't need their business.

I was just glancing at some sales data, and while I didn't find final 2012 sales figures for all brands, it seems like the three German car makers are nearly in a dead heat for global sales. Also, one article claims that Audi buyers most often consider BMW models, not MB.

captainaudio commented: January 4, 2013, 12:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

I was just glancing at some sales data, and while I didn't find final 2012 sales figures for all brands, it seems like the three German car makers are nearly in a dead heat for global sales. Also, one article claims that Audi buyers most often consider BMW models, not MB.

I think the executives at BMWUSA will be relieved to know they are selling so may cars that they don't need business from Audi and MB customers.

CA

dtc100 commented: January 4, 2013, 1:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

When it comes to buying the same car brand multiple times, you'd think that the high-end luxury makers have the market cornered. Once you've driven a Mercedes, it seems, you only shop for cars from Mercedes-Benz. Likewise with BMW and Audi, whose customers seem to be fanatically loyal. Still, if you picked any of these brands, you'd be incorrect. According to the latest study on brand loyalty, conducted by JD Power and Associates, the brands with the highest number of repeat buyers are:
- Ford (62% customer retention)
- Honda (62% customer retention)
- Hyundai (60% customer retention)
- Lexus (60% customer retention)
- Toyota (60% customer retention)

BMW, Audi and Mercedes are very close to each other in sales and Lexus, which was the best selling luxury brand for many years, is fighting to regain losses in incurred after the tsunami disaster in Japan. Audi trimmed BMW's lead in 2012 luxury-car sales worldwide to just 2,110 vehicles by the end of August, compared with a 40,000-vehicle deficit at the same time last year. Audi is being fueled by growth in China and in the U.S. in particular, reports Bloomberg.

I have said this before, do not confuse BJ with facts.

boltjaM3s commented: January 4, 2013, 1:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddieB

And they did. But I do like Omega.

Me too, but only my vintage pre-Moon '64 Speedmaster.

BJ

boltjaM3s commented: January 4, 2013, 1:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Fixed!

Thank you. That was an honest mistake, quite proud of the fact that I'm smart enough and wealthy enough to lease for the rest of my life.

BJ

boltjaM3s commented: January 4, 2013, 2:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

The F30 328i includes some amenities that were options on the E90, and while that is better, I have not seen any reviews where the F30 is deemed significantly better (or even better) than the E90 328i. I think the "not screw it up" part is partially true, however.

You really should start including a disclaimer that says something like "purely my opinion", and possibly "BMW F30 super duper fanboy" when you post.

I think I do a good job representing the average BMW owner, not the enthusiasts who still hang onto the 3 Series and option it in an unusual way.

And as an owner of two E9X vehicles I think I've got a good grip on what the F30 is or isn't. As someone who hasn't owned an E90 and doesn't own an F30, perhaps you can go back to the forum where the 14 year olds worship your every move and bow before the 335is as if it's a precious jewel. They need your help over there. Lots of questions about leaking oil, used car prices, how to get the Bar Mitzvah money out of the bank without the parents looking, etc.

BJ

boltjaM3s commented: January 4, 2013, 2:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

You remind me of Eric Cartman on South Park because you speak with such authority!

You remind me of a bored E93 owner.

BJ

boltjaM3s commented: January 4, 2013, 2:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

I was just glancing at some sales data, and while I didn't find final 2012 sales figures for all brands, it seems like the three German car makers are nearly in a dead heat for global sales. Also, one article claims that Audi buyers most often consider BMW models, not MB.

Could be.

Remember that the F30 transition created significant downtime for 3 Series sales and the knowledge of the new F32 and F33 slowed down those bodystyles as well. Next year with all 4 bodystyles in the new sheetmetal sales will return to normal and Audi and MB will be comfortably in the rearview mirror.

BJ

cordoor commented: January 4, 2013, 2:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Thank you. That was an honest mistake, quite proud of the fact that I'm smart enough and wealthy enough to lease for the rest of my life.

BJ

This may be true, but if that is your wrist sporting the watch, you need a tan brother!

-Corey

beden1 commented: January 4, 2013, 11:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Me too, but only my vintage pre-Moon '64 Speedmaster.

BJ

dtc100 commented: January 4, 2013, 11:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cordoor

This may be true, but if that is your wrist sporting the watch, you need a tan brother!

-Corey

What BJ needs is a 7 series. No one parades Rolex watches around in a lowly entry level luxury pretender.

Zeichen311 commented: January 4, 2013, 11:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

What BJ needs is a 7 series. No one parades Rolex watches around in a lowly entry level luxury pretender.

Although the E30/36 will do better in autocross, the E9X is certainly the best driving tool, the best athlete overall. Base version can be deceiving but with the right stuff, they are a blast to drive. Not for nothing that many car mags said that it would have won against a F30.

If the E9X is the best driving tool, the best athlete overall, I nominate the E46 for being the "most BMW". Where the E9X can be cold, the E46 was more engaging and more 'emotional'. It said BMW louder.

So where is the F30 in all of this? It is supposed to be an improved E9X. Mixed bag of feelings so far. As mentioned many times earlier in the thread, many aspects are a downgrade, such as the base engine, the steering feel and the too soft damping. Despite the pics, I thought that the cockpit would feel definitely better than the E9X - can't even say this. I hope that BMW will give it within 1-2 years a Civic_2012-treatment, more 'rigueur', like they did revise the highly criticized steering of the 1999-2000 E46. Hopefully the 4XX will fix a few issues.

I don't see any other car of this class that I want more than a new 335i/435i, as a replacement for my E90 (although a new A6 3.0T is also a possibility). But it is sad that we have to settle for less in so many regards and I just can't lie.

Although I have not owned an E46 or E90 but considered and test drove a few over the years. I have had a e90 (328xi) loaner a couple times in the past and IMHO the F30 has performed what it has set out to do, face it, the majority of 3 series buyers are not purists. For those of us who like the BMW and want the handling, daily drivablity without the harshness think the F30 is fabulous! The new steering may not feel as connected, but it provides a better drive for a majority of drivers. With some of the options availible as the DHP, BMW seems to attemt to still satisfy the purists as yourself.

The new cockpit layout has the traditional gauges with pretty good intrigration of some modern functionality. The new iDrive sceen is not the hidious hump in the middle of the dash as the e90 and has a minimal material between the top of the screen and the road (I paid a premium to get my Samsung TV with a small frame). Some other models like the A4 have the Navigation screen intigrated in the dash requires you to "Look Way Down Off the Road to view" (remember the old radios at the lowest part of the dash or tape players under the dashboard?). The BMW Navigation keeps your vision closer to the road in front of the driver. In the same respect, the HUD is one of my favorite features. I think if you drove the F30 335i with summer tires the DHP, Tech Package, Sport trans for a couple of days...

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I think I do a good job representing the average BMW owner, not the enthusiasts who still hang onto the 3 Series and option it in an unusual way.

BJ

I agree with BJ here.

EddieB commented: January 4, 2013, 1:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Me too, but only my vintage pre-Moon '64 Speedmaster.

BJ

Nice. My dad still has his mid-50s vintage Constellation.

Saintor commented: January 4, 2013, 1:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

You remind me of Eric Cartman on South Park because you speak with such authority!

Agreed, poor choice of words...maybe "volume" would be better? That is, not the epitome but the most popular (or nearly so) and the one everybody knows. My thinking was a 7er might be better paired to the Patek Phillipe, Franck Mueller, Bregeut tier...anyway, feeble attempt at a snarky analogy. If I try to think it through any further I'll only sprain something.

captainaudio commented: January 4, 2013, 5:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

Agreed, poor choice of words...maybe "volume" would be better? That is, not the epitome but the most popular (or nearly so) and the one everybody knows. My thinking was a 7er might be better paired to the Patek Phillipe, Franck Mueller, Bregeut tier...anyway, feeble attempt at a snarky analogy. If I try to think it through any further I'll only sprain something.

The best bet is to cover all the bases and have a 3 a 7 a Rolex and Patek Philippe.

CA

dtc100 commented: January 4, 2013, 6:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The best bet is to cover all the bases and have a 3 a 7 a Rolex and Patek Philippe.

CA

L328 plus Rolex when BJ is with the wife, and 7 plus Patek when with the mistress. Or should it be the other way around?

beden1 commented: January 4, 2013, 6:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The best bet is to cover all the bases and have a 3 a 7 a Rolex and Patek Philippe.

CA

I have a 3, a P-Car, a Rolex and a Patek Philippe. Does that qualify?

dtc100 commented: January 4, 2013, 6:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

I have a 3, a P-Car, a Rolex and a Patek Philippe. Does that qualify?

Is your P-car a mass market product?

Zeichen311 commented: January 4, 2013, 6:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The best bet is to cover all the bases and have a 3 a 7 a Rolex and Patek Philippe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

L328 plus Rolex when BJ is with the wife, and 7 plus Patek when with the mistress. Or should it be the other way around?

In today's America, if it is not six figures, then it is merely for the bourgeoisie.

captainaudio commented: January 4, 2013, 9:12 pm

Edit:

After I posted this I remembered that last summer I was walking by the Ferrari Showroom in Park Ave. and there were several Ferraris parked on the street and roped off. There were security guards and a lot of photographers. I asked what was going on and was told it was a promotional event for a watch company. I don't remember which watch manufacturer it was although I know it was not Girard Perregaux who at one time made "Official" Ferrari watches,

CA

SilverX3 commented: January 4, 2013, 11:51 pm

suddenly ....the thread is becoming a watch and car thread

ProRail commented: January 9, 2013, 10:26 pm

Very emtertaining thread. Thanks to all for such a diversity of views.

sle39lvr commented: February 14, 2013, 10:18 am

As the OP, I got one more thing to state:

I love how the F30 looks. May be not the nose, but rest of the car is beautiful in comparison to E90.

However, the interior, I really can't take seriously. It just looks way too 'utilitarian' to me. This is how we dreamed of Honda Civic interiors would look in the future from back in the day. Even with the new 4 series concept, no matter how much I lust after the exterior design, I can't believe they did such an interior design for F30 series.

There is so much cost cutting in the material. I cant believe they used hard materiel, just as you would find them on a Corolla just under the HVAC controls. Same with the center console sides, that's somewhere that you bound to touch more than one would think. I hated the E90 interior design first, but when you live with it for awhile, you realize that the material is high quality (at least comparatively) but only the textures that they used made the material look cheaper.

Some design elements have hard joints where two materials meet and they just look abrupt to me. (Notice the purple arrow). Every time I drive over a bump, I am always checking to see if that joint moves.... just small petpeeves. Bangle wouldn't have done it that way, no matter how much I despite him.

Jamesonsviggen commented: February 14, 2013, 10:36 am

Those points you called out, I don't see them being done in anything other than plastic. Same points I remember being hard plastic in the e90 as well. Those are not touch points, so I don't see the point of taking money and putting soft touch materials there. Bangle would have nothing to do with it either, he was more in charge of he exterior.

Edb5020 commented: February 14, 2013, 1:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Those points you called out, I don't see them being done in anything other than plastic. Same points I remember being hard plastic in the e90 as well. Those are not touch points, so I don't see the point of taking money and putting soft touch materials there. Bangle would have nothing to do with it either, he was more in charge of he exterior.

Those are absolutely touch points. The E90 has soft touch materials there.

Jamesonsviggen commented: February 14, 2013, 4:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edb5020

Those are absolutely touch points. The E90 has soft touch materials there.

Underneath the e-brake and under all the HVAC are traditionally not referred to as touch points.

everettpa1 commented: February 14, 2013, 5:16 pm

Interior is great overall. The worst thing is the glove box. That is a clunky piece of ...

But everytime I open or close the doors and here that thunk, it's all good.

Lighting, ergo, seats, center stack, are well designed.

SamS commented: February 14, 2013, 5:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

Some design elements have hard joints where two materials meet and they just look abrupt to me. (Notice the purple arrow).

I came from an E92. That transition (purple arrow) is the only sore spot on the F30 interior design. Other BMWs (and brands) are much smoother in transition.

Jamesonsviggen commented: February 14, 2013, 5:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

I came from an E92. That transition (purple arrow) is the only sore spot on the F30 interior design. Other BMWs (and brands) are much smoother in transition.

I agree on that too. The body gaps look a bit big to me too as I was looking at the doors today.

dtc100 commented: February 14, 2013, 7:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Underneath the e-brake and under all the HVAC are traditionally not referred to as touch points.

I thought touch points are mostly on the passenger side.

Jamesonsviggen commented: February 14, 2013, 8:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

I thought touch points are mostly on the passenger side.

Most touch points are more driver centric, i.e. the steering wheel, shift knob and e-brake. When I was a kid and had a crappy car, these were things I would upgrade. So I would have an old GM car with a plastic fantastic interior but with a nice leather Momo knob, steering wheel, pedals, and e-brake handle.

LOL, my first car! Luckily I grew out of my "ricey" phase.

boltjaM3s commented: February 14, 2013, 10:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

As the OP, I got one more thing to state:

I love how the F30 looks. May be not the nose, but rest of the car is beautiful in comparison to E90.

However, the interior, I really can't take seriously. It just looks way too 'utilitarian' to me. This is how we dreamed of Honda Civic interiors would look in the future from back in the day. Even with the new 4 series concept, no matter how much I lust after the exterior design, I can't believe they did such an interior design for F30 series.

There is so much cost cutting in the material. I cant believe they used hard materiel, just as you would find them on a Corolla just under the HVAC controls. Same with the center console sides, that's somewhere that you bound to touch more than one would think. I hated the E90 interior design first, but when you live with it for awhile, you realize that the material is high quality (at least comparatively) but only the textures that they used made the material look cheaper.

This is such nonsense.

I owned an E93 and an E90 and can tell you definitively that the materials you refer to are identical. In fact, the two touch-points that used to make me sore on long trips in the E90 no longer do so in the F30. My left elbow (I lean it on the window sill) and my left shin (I lean it on the lower door storage pocket) no longer feel bruised after a 5 hour cruise. And it's not because the material is softer; it's because the curvature of the plastic has been adjusted to a more comfortable angle.

And as far as the design being 'utilitarian'? Are you kidding? The E90 interior was about as spartan as it gets, was designed straight out of 1975 with no curves, no flair, no panache. Was as boring as it gets.

The F30's exterior is evolutionary from the E90. The F30's interior is revolutionary. 70% of the difference between the two models is found in the interior. It's remarkably comfortable, functional, and fresh.

BJ

dtc100 commented: February 14, 2013, 11:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Most touch points are more driver centric, i.e. the steering wheel, shift knob and e-brake. When I was a kid and had a crappy car, these were things I would upgrade. So I would have an old GM car with a plastic fantastic interior but with a nice leather Momo knob, steering wheel, pedals, and e-brake handle.

LOL, my first car! Luckily I grew out of my "ricey" phase.

Not necessarily the same individual, but this is more or less what I meant when I said touch points on the passenger side:

sle39lvr commented: February 15, 2013, 2:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

This is such nonsense.

I owned an E93 and an E90 and can tell you definitively that the materials you refer to are identical. In fact, the two touch-points that used to make me sore on long trips in the E90 no longer do so in the F30. My left elbow (I lean it on the window sill) and my left shin (I lean it on the lower door storage pocket) no longer feel bruised after a 5 hour cruise. And it's not because the material is softer; it's because the curvature of the plastic has been adjusted to a more comfortable angle.

And as far as the design being 'utilitarian'? Are you kidding? The E90 interior was about as spartan as it gets, was designed straight out of 1975 with no curves, no flair, no panache. Was as boring as it gets.

The F30's exterior is evolutionary from the E90. The F30's interior is revolutionary. 70% of the difference between the two models is found in the interior. It's remarkably comfortable, functional, and fresh.

BJ

I really do not want to reply to this. However, I WILL leave something highlighted

boltjaM3s commented: February 15, 2013, 5:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sle39lvr

I really do not want to reply to this. However, I WILL leave something highlighted

Compared to the E90 it most certainly is.

You can go ahead and love your 6 year old car without putting down our new ones. We all owned E90's before we got our F30's, I think we know what we're talking about here, might have some expertise that you lack.

BJ

Jamesonsviggen commented: February 15, 2013, 10:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtc100

Not necessarily the same individual, but this is more or less what I meant when I said touch points on the passenger side:

Ah, twas a joke. OK.

MMME30W commented: February 15, 2013, 11:51 am

Looked at / test drove two 2013 328is today, a Melbourne Red with black Dakota, Sport line, Premium and a Modern line Black Saphire with Dakota Saddle Brown.

TL;DR: The F30 is a better sports sedan than the equivalent E90 - and - it is 100% a BMW.

Non-Driving review of the Red 328i Sport:

High quality materials, fit and finish. The Navi screen position is odd at first but not noticed after 30 seconds. The Speedo and tach are smallish, but ok. Don't like silver ring surrounding. No cover to cup holder, but later found it in glove box. Very BMW feel to steering wheel. Mat in trunk is a nice touch. Plastic of covered trunk struts? Fuel door is a bit bigger. Sport line is very attractive - red piping looks sharp.

Cup cover in small net in glove box is good, plus the net is cool. The other small net on back left is also a nice touch. Auto shift lever kinda looks odd. Modern?

The dash and controls canted to driver. Reminds me more of my E46. This is good. The Glove box feels tinny. Ok, No big deal. The In Dash LCD are cool below the gauges. Nice Led lights at top center. Good. Headliner good material weave good. Pirelli Cinturato P7s. Solid disks, Rear disks look smallish. M seats nice. Good support.

Driving review of the black Modern Line:

I test drove the black modern line 328i over a short 1.5 mile course. Excellent power. No noticeable turbo rattle at idle w window open. Great handling. Brakes firm and supportive. Transmission hesitation on spin up, but very very quick to downshift, and it seemed any turbo lag coincided with kickdown for quick reaction. Excellent road feel and steering on normal roads. Compliant suspension.

Car left in normal, not Eco or sport.

Color me impressed.

MMME30W commented: February 15, 2013, 11:56 am

Some pics.

MMME30W commented: February 15, 2013, 11:58 am

One more.

Jamesonsviggen commented: February 15, 2013, 11:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMME30W

Some pics.

Based on wheels, the black one was a Luxury, not a Modern Line. They both have the same suspension though, so driving the Sport would have given you a different experience.

MMME30W commented: February 15, 2013, 1:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Based on wheels, the black one was a Luxury, not a Modern Line. They both have the same suspension though, so driving the Sport would have given you a different experience.

I stand corrected.

LegendsNeverDie commented: February 15, 2013, 2:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMME30W

Looked at / test drove two 2013 328is today, a Melbourne Red with black Dakota, Sport line, Premium and a Modern line Black Saphire with Dakota Saddle Brown.

TL;DR: The F30 is a better sports sedan than the equivalent E90 - and - it is 100% a BMW.

Non-Driving review of the Red 328i Sport:

High quality materials, fit and finish. The Navi screen position is odd at first but not noticed after 30 seconds. The Speedo and tach are smallish, but ok. Don't like silver ring surrounding. No cover to cup holder, but later found it in glove box. Very BMW feel to steering wheel. Mat in trunk is a nice touch. Plastic of covered trunk struts? Fuel door is a bit bigger. Sport line is very attractive - red piping looks sharp.

Cup cover in small net in glove box is good, plus the net is cool. The other small net on back left is also a nice touch. Auto shift lever kinda looks odd. Modern?

The dash and controls canted to driver. Reminds me more of my E46. This is good. The Glove box feels tinny. Ok, No big deal. The In Dash LCD are cool below the gauges. Nice Led lights at top center. Good. Headliner good material weave good. Pirelli Cinturato P7s. Solid disks, Rear disks look smallish. M seats nice. Good support.

Driving review of the black Modern Line:

I test drove the black modern line 328i over a short 1.5 mile course. Excellent power. No noticeable turbo rattle at idle w window open. Great handling. Brakes firm and supportive. Transmission hesitation on spin up, but very very quick to downshift, and it seemed any turbo lag coincided with kickdown for quick reaction. Excellent road feel and steering on normal roads. Compliant suspension.

Car left in normal, not Eco or sport.

Color me impressed.

The interior design of the F30 is way ahead of the one in the E90. It is a little busy but it makes the E90 interior look very old. Also the LCI E90 is starting to look dated next to the F30. I can't comment on long term quality of materials in the F30 but my E90 has some visible wear and tear peeling near the window controls, on the steering wheel and on the outside shadow line trim. As far as the F30 being a better sports sedan than the E90, I know a lot of BMW enthusiasts and majority of automotive publications would disagree. The same can be said about E46 > E90.

sle39lvr commented: February 15, 2013, 4:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Compared to the E90 it most certainly is.

You can go ahead and love your 6 year old car without putting down our new ones. We all owned E90's before we got our F30's, I think we know what we're talking about here, might have some expertise that you lack.

BJ

If you read my posts properly, you see that I do drive an F30. My wife has the E90 I used to drive. If course I love the F30 more, love the tech in it mostly. But most of it due to the fact that it's the newer car. I was thinking in twenty years, which car would I like better and consider as a better car....

I started this thread to discuss about differences between the two in a decent manner. Things that are rarely talked about and what majors reviews and comparisons has not covered.

It seems like these replies of yours, you try to sound ignorant and condescending. How many times have you accused of putting your car on a pedestal, just in this thread alone? This is my last reply on this board towards you. I wish you act a little more decently among these other decent people here.

dtc100 commented: February 15, 2013, 4:43 pm

I decided to post a few before and after photos comparing changes by BMW and MB. Since MB has yet updated the C Class I used GLK350. Changes in the MB is more drastic. It also seems to go well with its emphasis on luxury, with the retro look.

BMW's changes are not as drastic, but more importantly, it does not make me feel the look is sportier, which should be BMW's emphasis. Instead it tries to look more luxurious, but as evident, MB has this part mastered. They are just better at offering more luxury feel.

408Racer commented: February 15, 2013, 4:54 pm

Black ones with real joysticks:

PK2348 commented: February 15, 2013, 5:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Thank you. That was an honest mistake, quite proud of the fact that I'm smart enough and wealthy enough to lease for the rest of my life.

BJ

My grandma used to say, if you want to make god laugh, tell him your plans

beden1 commented: February 15, 2013, 6:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Compared to the E90 it most certainly is.

You can go ahead and love your 6 year old car without putting down our new ones. We all owned E90's before we got our F30's, I think we know what we're talking about here, might have some expertise that you lack.

BJ

suneil commented: February 15, 2013, 6:48 pm

this is my first BMW, and the only reason why is because i thought the e90's had poor ergonomics, a dated interior, and frankly not as luxurious as their competitors...

That all changed when i sat in the F30. The ultimate combination of technology, performance, and reasonable luxury at a price that is relatively competitive.

sr5959 commented: February 15, 2013, 7:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by suneil

this is my first BMW, and the only reason why is because i thought the e90's had poor ergonomics, a dated interior, and frankly not as luxurious as their competitors...

That all changed when i sat in the F30. The pantultemet combination of technology, performance, and reasonable luxury at a price that is relatively competitive.

Ditto for me.

beden1 commented: February 15, 2013, 7:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by suneil

this is my first BMW, and the only reason why is because i thought the e90's had poor ergonomics, a dated interior, and frankly not as luxurious as their competitors...

That all changed when i sat in the F30. The pantultemet combination of technology, performance, and reasonable luxury at a price that is relatively competitive.

I guess I don't understand the context?

There's this, which some would agree with - If something's the penultimate , then it's the second to last thing in a series.

beden1 commented: February 15, 2013, 7:46 pm

Here is an interior picture of a 1980 BMW 320i, which is (was) typical of German auto interiors. They were spartan with very good ergonomics. It is function over form, and is what separated BMW, Porsche and Mercedes from the American and Japanese counterparts.

From many of the posts in this thread, it would appear that the current buyers prefer form over function. I guess I'm wondering what separates German cars like BMWs from the American and Japanese cars today?

sr5959 commented: February 15, 2013, 7:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beden1

Here is an interior picture of a 1980 BMW 320i, which is (was) typical of German auto interiors. They were spartan with very good ergonomics. It is function over form, and is what separated BMW, Porsche and Mercedes from the American and Japanese counterparts.

I remember when Mercedes would take this 'form over function' to an extreme; even the most expensive models had a manual adjustment for the driver's door mirror! (although driver's window was still electric!) One of my favorite cars ever which my older brother had, 560SEC had this. Man that car was fun to drive what an engine...

beden1 commented: February 15, 2013, 8:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr5959

I remember when Mercedes would take this 'form over function' to an extreme; even the most expensive models had a manual adjustment for the driver's door mirror! (although driver's window was still electric!) One of my favorite cars ever which my older brother had, 560SEC had this. Man that car was fun to drive what an engine...

I found an interior picture of a 1979 Mercedes 300D. We owned one back in the day. The Mercedes interiors were more luxury oriented (wood inlays) as compared to the BMW interiors, but were still very functional.

beden1 commented: February 15, 2013, 8:10 pm

My 2012 Porsche Carrera interior that retains the German function over form, IMO. I love this interior layout because it does not get in the way of (complicate) my driving experience.

MMME30W commented: February 15, 2013, 9:07 pm

^^^ Love the tach in the middle. As it should be.

boltjaM3s commented: February 15, 2013, 10:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMME30W

I stand corrected.

You did good.

BJ

S197 commented: March 30, 2013, 5:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I owned an E90 for 3 years prior to my F30. The answer to your question (assuming you have a 328i) boils down to this:

The F30 is 80% of what the E90 was. Materials are the same. Fit and finish is the same.

The 20% that is different is a big deal:

Torque: The turbo 4 is just a beast, so much faster off the line than the 6 it replaces, really throws you back in your seat.

Power: Once at speed, there's plenty more power to burst past other cars. I'll be driving on the highway completely oblivious to the fact that I'm doing 92 MPH and will have to slow myself down. It's effortless.

Transmission: The 8 speed auto is so much faster and smoother and accurate than the version it replaced. Because you don't have to stomp on the accelerator to get the car to move anymore, the transmission doesn't have to jerk wildly to get from 1st to 2nd to 3rd gear anymore.

Steering: It's lighter and easier. The car weighs less, so the combination of the weight reduction and the torque increase completely transforms how the car drives. It's effortless, requires a lot less effort and thought to get the car to go where you want it.

Experience Modes: This is not just savvy marketing, throwing the switch from Comfort to Sport changes the driving characteristics of the car completely, it feels like two different cars. Sport mode is crazy fun. Comfort mode is easier for the wife and kids stomachs. The E90 had neither. Was not as fun as Sport mode, was not as eased as Comfort mode. This is a big deal, not to be overlooked.

Size: The car has increased in size so there's a bit more shoulder room and rear passenger legroom but it doesn't feel bigger.

Audio System is upgraded. If you have a standard audio system in the E90 you'll be thrilled with the standard audio system in the F30 as it's the "enhanced" system they pay extra for in Europe.

Visibility is better: I find that the A pillar and B pillar location combined with new rear seatback position gives me a better overall view of the road.

It's more quiet: Not sure if it's the sound deadening material or better door seals but the F30 definitely has a more soundproofed cabin.

Interior looks and acts better: This myth about materials and quality you've read is BS. It's the same as the E90. What's different is the layout of the center stack, the integration of the wood and the dash components, the ambient lighting, the new cupholders, the thought that went into the storage compartments.

Great new standard equipment: The auto dimming mirrors, split-folding rear seat, power seats, garage door openers, and other throw-in's really make the experience better.

Technology: iDrive is now standard on all F30's. Nuff said. If you get the Technology Package, the head up display is crazy good and extremely functional.

Un-Bangled: The F30 has more refined sheetmetal, specifically the nose of the car which no longer looks like a Japanese pachinko machine.

BJ

I have to agree 100% on ALL OF THIS. I just had a 2013 328i A6 coupe as a loaner while our 2012 328i A8 sedan had to have the software updated. I'm sorry to all the 328i E90 owners, but that car is not in the same league as the F30. Our 2012 is the first BMW I've owned or even driven. Its a pure joy, great car and extremely fast for what it is. Its my wife's DD, mine is a modified 2011 Mustang GT. Driving the 328i coupe was way closer to driving my mustang than driving her sedan, except it was slower than both. That car has no get up and is a lot louder and harsher. The coupe had the M sport package which came with 18's, but I doubt that's the problem because my mustang has 20's. Of course the BMW has a better interior and no inside rattles (unlike my mustang), but was still a big let down.

I found this thread because I was trying to figure out why the coupe was such a let down. That 20% difference (mainly engine & transmission) puts the F30 FAR ahead of the E90. Ridiculously far.

krash commented: March 30, 2013, 5:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by S197

I have to agree 100% on ALL OF THIS. I just had a 2013 328i coupe as a loaner while our 2012 328i sedan had to have the software updated. I'm sorry to all the 328i E90 owners, but that car is not in the same league as the F30. Our 2012 is the first BMW I've owned or even driven. Its a pure joy, great car and extremely fast for what it is. Its my wife's DD, mine is a modified 2011 Mustang GT. Driving the 328i coupe was way closer to driving my mustang than driving her sedan, except it was slower than both. That car has no get up and is a lot louder and harsher. The coupe had the M sport package which came with 18's, but I doubt that's the problem because my mustang has 20's. Of course the BMW has a better interior and no inside rattles (unlike my mustang), but was still a big let down.

I found this thread because I was trying to figure out why the coupe was such a let down. That 20% difference (mainly engine & transmission) puts the F30 FAR ahead of the E90. Ridiculously far.

Yes, I had an E90 335 and now an F30 335. I loved my E90, don't get me wrong, but seriously, I love my F30 335 much much more. I already wrote a lot of reviews on my new car, so I'm not going to go into a lot of details...

First of all, DHP is really nice. Love the different modes in DHP. Never had that on my E90. I think the performance is much better. Not really talking about 0-60, but I'm talking about performance across the entire band 20 to 50, 10 to 40, 30 to 60, etc. It's just much better; especially when in Sport Mode. iDrive is better. HK sound system is much better than the HK in the E90, handling is just as good, rear view camera is a big plus, instrumentation is better. Just about everything is. Most of all, the new 8 speed sport transmission is WAY BETTER than the old 6 speed Steptronic

However, there are 2 things I noticed...

1) Sport Seats. I am getting used to them, but I think I like the regular seats I had in my e90 better. I know. I'm the exception to the rule, and besides, this has nothing to do with the F30 vs the E90 anyway... It's just a matter of seat preference.

2) Steering. After 2 weeks, I think I discovered a scenario in which the steering feels a little vague like some have suggested. It's on straight-aways. If you make a subtle turn to the left or right, you can notice it, but on most roads, I don't notice it that much at all. Overall, I would say the steering is still very good, but maybe not as good as the E90. In addition, I would say that the steering in no way negates the F30 relative to the E90.

awaisht commented: June 15, 2013, 4:05 pm

Anyone looking for an ultimate driving machine, F30 is not for you. F30 has lost the great control E90 had (Altough it was not as good as E46, but E90 was still fun). Dampers are too soft and bouncy. There is more body roll than e90.

Good power, good design, great gas mileage, ok materials used inside, nice steering but bit too soft. If I could, I would replace it with an E90 today!!!!

Commenting after owning 4 3-series in last 9 years, and driving 15K miles on current 328i Sports Line.

awaisht commented: June 15, 2013, 4:18 pm

Everyone has different definition of a good car, and everyone is looking for something different in a good car. If you are looking for brand name, design, looks, gas mileage, sleek interior, and silky ride, you should get F30.

All I look for in a BMW is power and control. F30 has the power but very little control. On E46 or E90 I could easily make a quick turn at 120mph, but on F30 that would result in killing myself.

If you have the money, buy a F30 and install after market coilovers, then you would have ultimate driving machine.

GaryW commented: June 15, 2013, 7:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I owned an E90 for 3 years prior to my F30. The answer to your question (assuming you have a 328i) boils down to this:

The F30 is 80% of what the E90 was. Materials are the same. Fit and finish is the same.

The 20% that is different is a big deal:

BJ

Totally agree with everything you said BJ ... You confused me on your first statement though

I would have said the E90 was 80% of the F30 since the f30 has that extra 20%

I went from 2010 E90 320i to 2012 F30 320i over here in Australia .. The F30 is a joy to drive .. And I did love my E90!!!

Those extra 20% are fantastic ..

Garyw

kkapdolee commented: June 15, 2013, 9:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by awaisht

Anyone looking for an ultimate driving machine, F30 is not for you. F30 has lost the great control E90 had (Altough it was not as good as E46, but E90 was still fun). Dampers are too soft and bouncy. There is more body roll than e90.

Good power, good design, great gas mileage, ok materials used inside, nice steering but bit too soft. If I could, I would replace it with an E90 today!!!!

Commenting after owning 4 3-series in last 9 years, and driving 15K miles on current 328i Sports Line.

Is there a general consensus that E46 is a way better "driver's car" than both E90 and F30? I test drove an E46 M3 just today and felt that it had better traction but the suspension was too harsh and overall, not very impressive.

chiefneil commented: June 15, 2013, 11:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkapdolee

Is there a general consensus that E46 is a way better "driver's car" than both E90 and F30? I test drove an E46 M3 just today and felt that it had better traction but the suspension was too harsh and overall, not very impressive.

Not from me. I have an E46 330i as a daily driver and I've had many E90 loaners. I think the driving experience is very similar; the E90 corners a bit flatter and is generally a little more refined. They're both great cars IMHO.

I never upgraded because they actually seemed so similar, with the deciding factor being that I wasn't fond of the E90's external appearance.

GaryW commented: June 16, 2013, 12:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayoucity

BJ, do you really prefer that light steering in your F30? The only item I dislike about F30 is the EPS. Otherwise, BMW has done a marvelous job on F30's suspension especially during urban driving.

Agreed ... I normally have the F30 in "comfort" mode for my daily commute to work .. Only 30 minutes each way on pretty straight roads with no real driving ability needed ..

Switch to "sport" and "sport+" on the weekends and one appreciates the fact that the F30 is a multifaceted beast ... Which come alive at the press of a button... I do like it better than my E90 ...

Garyw

MasterYoda commented: June 18, 2013, 6:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bikenski

Just came out of a 328i xDrive loaner that I had for a few days while my E92 335i xDrive was in for service.

My take is that BMW spent *way* too much effort on "Eco Pro" gimmicks, and nowhere near enough focus on driving dynamics. Why should I have to press a bunch of buttons to try to make the car behave like a European sports sedan should, instead of driving like a Prius? Hit a button so the car doesn't turn itself off every time it stops, hit another button to keep the transmission from starting out in what feels like 3rd gear from lights, etc. And there isn't a button to make the 4 cylinder exhaust note sound befitting of a nearly $50,000 car. Come to think of it, even the steering was vague and artificial like that aforementioned Prius.

At least in a Prius you're rewarded with 50 mpg fuel economy for putting up with the lack of driving dynamics, but the 328 returned a whopping 3 MPG better than my 335 doing the same commute. I know that's a lot for a manufacturer struggling to meet tightening fuel economy standards, but to the actual vehicle owner, I don't think it's worth all the sacrifices that were made to eek out those few extra MPGs.

It's not all bad news though. The body structure of the F30 is tight as a drum, wind noise is noticeably lower than in the E9x, the automatic transmission is a huge improvement over the old GM unit, and the HUD and other tech gadgetry works well. None of those improvements kept me from being glad to hand back the key to the loaner and get back behind the wheel of my "old" E92 though.

Sure hope the upcoming F32 has much better driving dynamics, or my second BMW just might be my last. C'mon Munich - don't sacrifice the driving experience that sets you apart from the rest of the herd under the guise of efficiency!

+ 100. I agree with you completely. These are all of my thoughts exactly. So I've been itching to order an F32 435 sight unseen for a few months now and I am very glad that I wasn't able to. I currently drive an e92 335xDrive coupe that is coming to the end of its lease. Love the car! Engine, handling. Etc etc just for sh*ts and giggles I test drove an F30 335 sport line last night. Sorry but what a boat! I couldn't believe this is what the 3 series has turned into! All I could think of was ultimate driving machine ya right!!!!! I'm not going to continue to bash the Prius err F30 but needless to say the 435 is out and I'm going too either buy the e92 off lease or give the 135 a shot for a few years. I've been reading the 135 is still a "real" BMW.

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andrewkpt commented: June 18, 2013, 6:14 pm

ill stick with getting a e90... its not always needed to have the latest and greatest when the last years or older models look great.. plus you said the new one is 80% of the old one so im convinced ( but congrats to the owners of a F series )

Jamesonsviggen commented: June 18, 2013, 6:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

+ 100. I agree with you completely. These are all of my thoughts exactly. So I've been itching to order an F32 435 sight unseen for a few months now and I am very glad that I wasn't able to. I currently drive an e92 335xDrive coupe that is coming to the end of its lease. Love the car! Engine, handling. Etc etc just for sh*ts and giggles I test drove an F30 335 sport line last night. Sorry but what a boat! I couldn't believe this is what the 3 series has turned into! All I could think of was ultimate driving machine ya right!!!!! I'm not going to continue to bash the Prius err F30 but needless to say the 435 is out and I'm going too either buy the e92 off lease or give the 135 a shot for a few years. I've been reading the 135 is still a "real" BMW.

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$20 bet the 335 Sport you drove was an NON DHP Xdrive-meaning standard suspension. I drove that setup, you could not pay me to live with it. But hey, if it was enough to keep you out of an F30-fine by me.

mr_clueless commented: June 18, 2013, 6:36 pm

Looks like they might have improved things with the 4 series:

"Beginning with the parameters and components of the 3-series, the chassis of the 4-series has been significantly reworked, BMW says, for added agility. The center of gravity is lower than on any other BMW today, the front section of the car has been stiffened, and the steering and front suspension has been tweaked to generate significantly more direct responses to steering input, as BMW saysa tacit admission that there was room to improve upon the steering of the 3-series."

It'll be time for some celebration had they said "improved steering feedback."

MasterYoda commented: June 18, 2013, 7:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

$20 bet the 335 Sport you drove was an NON DHP Xdrive-meaning standard suspension. I drove that setup, you could not pay me to live with it. But hey, if it was enough to keep you out of an F30-fine by me.

I'm sure it was that horrible setup. I couldn't wait to get back in my wife's e90 328xi after the test drive. What a sloppy mess! if I didn't know better I could have mistaken the car for a Toyota camry/Lexus! The more of us that stay out of the F30 the better IMHO. Maybe BMW will wake up!

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Jamesonsviggen commented: June 18, 2013, 7:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

I'm sure it was that horrible setup. I couldn't wait to get back in my wife's e90 328xi after the test drive. What a sloppy mess! if I didn't know better I could have mistaken the car for a Toyota camry/Lexus! The more of us that stay out of the F30 the better IMHO. Maybe BMW will wake up!

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Or, just drive the proper version of the f30 offered like has been written here countless times.

MasterYoda commented: June 18, 2013, 7:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Or, just drive the proper version of the f30 offered like has been written here countless times.

It goes beyond that for me regardless of the proper DHP and suspension setup ! it's still a boat period! Ok. A better handling boat but still a boat. BMW is just getting further and further away from what got them here in the 1st place. My wife and I are going for our 5th BMW and it could be our last. If I wanted a larger car from BMW I would get a 5 or 7 series. When I first drove an e46 I just knew it was the car for us and it just happened again just the other way around! Come on having the car turn off at a stop sign is completely annoying and ridiculous. If I wanted that I would get a clown car(Prius).

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Jamesonsviggen commented: June 18, 2013, 7:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

It goes beyond that for me regardless of the proper DHP and suspension setup ! it's still a boat period! Ok. A better handling boat but still a boat. BMW is just getting further and further away from what got them here in the 1st place. My wife and I are going for our 5th BMW and it could be our last. If I wanted a larger car from BMW I would get a 5 or 7 series. When I first drove an e46 I just knew it was the car for us and it just happened again just the other way around! Come on having the car turn off at a stop sign is completely annoying and ridiculous. If I wanted that I would get a clown car(Prius).

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You like to hear yourself speak it seems.

I have driven your e90 328xi. You seem to have an inflated view of that car.

I had auto stop start turned off before delivery. Find other things to complain about.

MasterYoda commented: June 18, 2013, 7:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You like to hear yourself speak it seems.

I have driven your e90 328xi. You seem to have an inflated view of that car.

I had auto stop start turned off before delivery. Find other things to complain about.

Not at all. Just disappointed is all. My wife's e90 whatever. My e92 335 different story. I knew If I voiced my displeasure someone would have to justify there purchase. Enjoy!

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Jamesonsviggen commented: June 18, 2013, 7:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

Not at all. Just disappointed is all. My wife's e90 whatever. My e92 335 different story. I knew If I voiced my displeasure someone would have to justify there purchase. Enjoy!

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I did not ever post in the e90/e92 forum each time I was unimpressed by a week spent with one.

So you are in the F30 forum and I am supposed to congratulate you on spewing your dissapointment in a car that poorly represents the new platform? You ramble about the same silly things like ASS that we have heard for years and have yet to drive a proper handling F30. Great.

Can we shake your hand for enlightening us?

bmw_again commented: June 18, 2013, 11:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

+ 100. I agree with you completely. These are all of my thoughts exactly. So I've been itching to order an F32 435 sight unseen for a few months now and I am very glad that I wasn't able to. I currently drive an e92 335xDrive coupe that is coming to the end of its lease. Love the car! Engine, handling. Etc etc just for sh*ts and giggles I test drove an F30 335 sport line last night. Sorry but what a boat! I couldn't believe this is what the 3 series has turned into! All I could think of was ultimate driving machine ya right!!!!! I'm not going to continue to bash the Prius err F30 but needless to say the 435 is out and I'm going too either buy the e92 off lease or give the 135 a shot for a few years. I've been reading the 135 is still a "real" BMW.

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Believe it or not another one that still feels like a "real" BMW is X1 (xdrive). Only if they offered it with manual option...

MasterYoda commented: June 19, 2013, 6:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmw_again

Believe it or not another one that still feels like a "real" BMW is X1 (xdrive). Only if they offered it with manual option...

Where did I mention an X1? Don't get me started on SUVs! Don't get it never will! 135 coupe is a completely different vehicle than an X1. FYI 135 comes with a manual and has "real" BMW driving characteristics which seems to be lacking nowadays.

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Michael Schott commented: June 19, 2013, 9:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

Where did I mention an X1? Don't get me started on SUVs! Don't get it never will! 135 coupe is a completely different vehicle than an X1. FYI 135 comes with a manual and has "real" BMW driving characteristics which seems to be lacking nowadays.

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Those of us with families are not looking at the small 2 door 135. We might look at the X1 which by the way is not an SUV (you are showing your lack of knowledge) but in reality a slightly taller version of the E91 Touring. It's the same chassis as the 1 series. Even BMW calls it an SAV which is marketing speak but in reality between a wagon and an SUV. The xDrive version has the hydraulic power steering system. Unfortunately the main drawback is lack of a MT. And while I'd much prefer a MT the reviews on the ZF 8AT are outstanding and in reality almost a worthwhile substitution.

MasterYoda commented: June 19, 2013, 10:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Those of us with families are not looking at the small 2 door 135. We might look at the X1 which by the way is not an SUV (you are showing your lack of knowledge) but in reality a slightly taller version of the E91 Touring. It's the same chassis as the 1 series. Even BMW calls it an SAV which is marketing speak but in reality between a wagon and an SUV. The xDrive version has the hydraulic power steering system. Unfortunately the main drawback is lack of a MT. And while I'd much prefer a MT the reviews on the ZF 8AT are outstanding and in reality almost a worthwhile substitution.

my lack of knowledge. SUV/SAV same difference. Overweight monstrosities IMHO. The Europeans have it right again. They go for the wagons if extra room is needed. My wife and I will never own an SUV when the time comes we will get a larger sedan or wagon. Better breaking and handling ability in comparison hands down!

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Michael Schott commented: June 19, 2013, 10:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

my lack of knowledge. SUV/SAV same difference. Overweight monstrosities IMHO. The Europeans have it right again. They go for the wagons if extra room is needed. My wife and I will never own an SUV when the time comes we will get a larger sedan or wagon. Better breaking and handling ability in comparison hands down!

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You lack reading comprehension or frankly don't want to consider facts. It's braking by the way, not breaking.

MasterYoda commented: June 19, 2013, 10:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

You lack reading comprehension or frankly don't want to consider facts. It's braking by the way, not breaking.

It's called an iPhone and it has something called auto correct maybe you've heard of it? Not surprised your interested in an X1. Lame! if I were you I would check out some mini vans!

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Michael Schott commented: June 19, 2013, 10:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

It's called an iPhone and it has something called auto correct maybe you've heard of it? Not surprised your interested in an X1. Lame! if I were you I would check out some mini vans!

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Autocorrect assumes you give a damn and don't let it control your life. It gives you an option to not take the suggestion. And for the rest, I currently drive an E90 328i with MT. I have a 3 year old son so need 4 doors and want the sportiest 4 door vehicle I can afford once my lease ends later this year. A 135 is not an option and I'm disappointed with the F30 so far. If you've done any research on the X1 xDrive you would know it's a good sporty option.

bmw_again commented: June 19, 2013, 10:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

Where did I mention an X1? Don't get me started on SUVs! Don't get it never will! 135 coupe is a completely different vehicle than an X1. FYI 135 comes with a manual and has "real" BMW driving characteristics which seems to be lacking nowadays.

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Ok, ok, my bad. I didn't even notice at first you are looking for a coupe. With two kids I'm not even thinking about a 2 door car.
The point is, in my opinion, X1 (with xdrive to have the good old steering) and actually with the 4 cylinder engine (to get the new 8 speed transmission) felt much more "real" than any F30 I tried. But I never tested anything with m-sport, so can't comment about that.

MasterYoda commented: June 19, 2013, 11:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Autocorrect assumes you give a damn and don't let it control your life. It gives you an option to not take the suggestion. And for the rest, I currently drive an E90 328i with MT. I have a 3 year old son so need 4 doors and want the sportiest 4 door vehicle I can afford once my lease ends later this year. A 135 is not an option and I'm disappointed with the F30 so far. If you've done any research on the X1 xDrive you would know it's a good sporty option.

I'm not here to argue with anyone. I originally posted in this forum because I was extremely dissatisfied with the F30 335 I test drove the other night. My wife and I also have an e90 328 and I really like the car. A little underpowered but still a great car. Our e92 335 awesome! Normally I wouldn't stir the pot posting about how " bad" I felt the new model was but I felt compelled to voice my feelings even though its been said countless times already. I need to replace the e92 (lease) in a few months so naturally the F32 was an option but that has now changed. After the drive the other night I began to consider a short lease on the 135 just so I can continue to drive a proper handling BMW. Too bad I cant still order another e92 I would in a heartbeat! Might have to buy my current car off lease! My wife and I have a deal. I get the sporty car ie coupe and she gets the sedan/ wagon. Etc etc as long as I let her drive my car occasionally. Good luck!

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408Racer commented: June 19, 2013, 11:33 am

The X1 is indeed quite perky and has more of that traditional BMW feel...except for the unavailability of 3 pedals. Had it been offered with a manual, it would have merited more serious consideration from me. Once I got over the derpy front end design.

mr_clueless commented: June 19, 2013, 2:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 408Racer

The X1 is indeed quite perky

Did you mean portly?

408Racer commented: June 19, 2013, 2:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

Did you mean portly?

Haha...it may be portly but it feels lithe.

bmw_again commented: June 19, 2013, 3:10 pm

LOL.

If I'm not mistaken, the weight actually is not that much different from the current xdrive 3 series. And certainly x1 is not heavier than the wagon.

elistan commented: June 19, 2013, 3:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

I'm sure it was that horrible setup. I couldn't wait to get back in my wife's e90 328xi after the test drive. What a sloppy mess! if I didn't know better I could have mistaken the car for a Toyota camry/Lexus! The more of us that stay out of the F30 the better IMHO. Maybe BMW will wake up!

I've driven an F30 xDrive loaner - yeah, it sucked. I own a RWD Sport Line with the 704 M Sport suspension - it rocks. You're doing yourself a disservice in writing off the entire F30 line based on that one drive. They are quite different cars to drive.

Daytona_John commented: June 19, 2013, 4:24 pm

I've got a 2011 335i, and my wife has a 2013 328i Sport which she got in December.

I LOVE the feel and handling of her car, particularly in Sport mode. Makes my car feel like a luxury sedan. When I first drove a car with that new 8 speed shifter, I was turned off. The new shifter is growing on me, but there's something to be said for the simplicity of the shifter in my 335i, and my previous 330i. Although I'm one that always felt you should move the stick forward to up shift...BMW is sticking with this particular behavior.

I have a 2013 M-Sport that's "on the boat" right now...can't wait!

bimmerfan3 commented: June 19, 2013, 5:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daytona_John

I've got a 2011 335i, and my wife has a 2013 328i Sport which she got in December.

I LOVE the feel and handling of her car, particularly in Sport mode. Makes my car feel like a luxury sedan. When I first drove a car with that new 8 speed shifter, I was turned off. The new shifter is growing on me, but there's something to be said for the simplicity of the shifter in my 335i, and my previous 330i. Although I'm one that always felt you should move the stick forward to up shift...BMW is sticking with this particular behavior.

I don't really like the standard 8 speed shifter, but I think the sports automatic 8 speed shifter looks so much better and gives a better grip as well.

MasterYoda commented: June 19, 2013, 6:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by elistan

I've driven an F30 xDrive loaner - yeah, it sucked. I own a RWD Sport Line with the 704 M Sport suspension - it rocks. You're doing yourself a disservice in writing off the entire F30 line based on that one drive. They are quite different cars to drive.

Your probably right. I gave an F30 335 base with xDrive another test drive this evening. ( it's all this particular dealer had in stock) and it still felt floaty and bloated. The steering was loose and not very communicative. Had the wife drive it also just to confirm my issues and while she wasn't as unhappy as I am she felt it was beefier then her e90. She remarked about how much of the hood was in her view compared to our e90 and e92 ( not a good thing). I am going to test drive the setup that you and a few others have suggested. RWD with M Sport and DHP. Maybe that will be the ticket!

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Jamesonsviggen commented: June 19, 2013, 8:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

Your probably right. I gave an F30 335 base with xDrive another test drive this evening. ( it's all this particular dealer had in stock) and it still felt floaty and bloated. The steering was loose and not very communicative. Had the wife drive it also just to confirm my issues and while she wasn't as unhappy as I am she felt it was beefier then her e90. She remarked about how much of the hood was in her view compared to our e90 and e92 ( not a good thing). I am going to test drive the setup that you and a few others have suggested. RWD with M Sport and DHP. Maybe that will be the ticket!

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You drove a car with the exact same suspension configuration you hated in the first car.

Drive a 328 M Sport RWD, does not even need DHP. Focus on the steering and handling, if the engine bothers you, try a 335 M Sport RWD. But in the NorthEast, Xdrive dominates dealer inventory.

enigma commented: June 19, 2013, 10:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

$20 bet the 335 Sport you drove was an NON DHP Xdrive-meaning standard suspension. I drove that setup, you could not pay me to live with it. But hey, if it was enough to keep you out of an F30-fine by me.

Not really a standard suspension. If he drove what he says he drove (Sport-Line), then it did have a sport (passive) suspension (which I believe is the same one on the M-Sport version).

I don't get the whole DHP business. I can see the adaptive suspension being beneficial on rough pavements, but the variable steering helps you in neither steering nor handling. It makes steering very artificial by varying the ratio, making it less predictable to your inputs.

Even in the best setup (for me it was the passive sport suspension), while responsive and precise, the lack of steering feedback and on-center feel was not the best example of what an Ultimate Driving Machine should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterYoda

Your probably right. I gave an F30 335 base with xDrive another test drive this evening. ( it's all this particular dealer had in stock) and it still felt floaty and bloated. The steering was loose and not very communicative. Had the wife drive it also just to confirm my issues and while she wasn't as unhappy as I am she felt it was beefier then her e90. She remarked about how much of the hood was in her view compared to our e90 and e92 ( not a good thing). I am going to test drive the setup that you and a few others have suggested. RWD with M Sport and DHP. Maybe that will be the ticket!

If you drove the Sport-Line and didn't like it, I doubt you will like the M-Sport with DHP for the reasons I gave above. But, I do encourage you to test drive it. We all have different preferences, and you may actually like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

You drove a car with the exact same suspension configuration you hated in the first car.

Drive a 328 M Sport RWD, does not even need DHP. Focus on the steering and handling, if the engine bothers you, try a 335 M Sport RWD. But in the NorthEast, Xdrive dominates dealer inventory.

Not the same suspension. The Sport-Line he drove has a vastly superior suspension compared to the base one. I don't even know why BMW even bothers with the base suspension.

As noted above, I believe the M-Sport and the Sport-Line come with the same passive sport suspension (or at least it felt that way on the '13 models I test drove).

Jamesonsviggen commented: June 19, 2013, 10:24 pm

Incorrect information, please be careful.

Car #1 was a Sport Xdrive without DHp, car #2 was a base Xdrive without DHp.

Both of those cars have identical suspensions.

Sport and M Sport have the 704 sport suspension only in RWD.

When you select Xdrive, there are no suspension distinctions or upgrades regardless of lines unless you select DHP.

That is why if you want a sporting experience but insist on Xdrive, at least get DHP.

So if the Op hated the handling and steering of the first car, driving the second was a waste of time if it had the same setup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enigma

Not really a standard suspension. If he drove what he says he drove (Sport-Line), then it did have a sport (passive) suspension (which I believe is the same one on the M-Sport version).

I don't get the whole DHP business. I can see the adaptive suspension being beneficial on rough pavements, but the variable steering helps you in neither steering nor handling. It makes steering very artificial by varying the ratio, making it less predictable to your inputs.

Even in the best setup (for me it was the passive sport suspension), while responsive and precise, the lack of steering feedback and on-center feel was not the best example of what an Ultimate Driving Machine should be.

If you drove the Sport-Line and didn't like it, I doubt you will like the M-Sport with DHP for the reasons I gave above. But, I do encourage you to test drive it. We all have different preferences, and you may actually like it.

Not the same suspension. The Sport-Line he drove has a vastly superior suspension compared to the base one. I don't even know why BMW even bothers with the base suspension.

As noted above, I believe the M-Sport and the Sport-Line come with the same passive sport suspension (or at least it felt that way on the '13 models I test drove).

GaryW commented: June 19, 2013, 11:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by elistan

I've driven an F30 xDrive loaner - yeah, it sucked. I own a RWD Sport Line with the 704 M Sport suspension - it rocks. You're doing yourself a disservice in writing off the entire F30 line based on that one drive. They are quite different cars to drive.

Totally agree ....my F30 is way better than the E90 when in Sports mode .. so shouldnt be writing off all F30s .. maybe the problem is the x-drive setup which I have never tried over here in Australia.

My F30 is in for service today ... Got an X3 diesel M Sports loaner .. Very nice inside .. but can't wait to pick up my car tonight ... Big Heavy, slow to take off even in Sports mode ... Would never buy an SUV\SAV Bimmer ... waste of additional money when one can buy other brands at much lower cost ...

Gary W.

enigma commented: June 20, 2013, 12:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Incorrect information, please be careful.

Car #1 was a Sport Xdrive without DHp, car #2 was a base Xdrive without DHp.

I didn't see that Yoda drove an xDrive. If that's the case, then yes, I agree.

RobertaZ commented: June 25, 2013, 4:20 pm

I have an E90 with the $1,500 optional sports suspension and an F30 with the $400 optional sports suspension. My only comment is that "you get what you pay for". The E90 handles MUCH better than the F30 around corners. The F30 handles quite well at high speeds, but can't compare to the E90 at lower speeds. The E90 also takes speed bumps much better than the F30. I pretty much ignored them when driving the E90, but I can't do that with the F30. The stock F30 stereo is much better than the E90's stereo and I love the fact that I can play lossless music (WAV files) from flash drives (I have two 128GB flash drives and one 64GB flash drive that hold music from 500 CDs - very convenient!).

The F30 has a smoother ride and feels very comfortable on smooth pavement and on long trips. That said, I prefer the "feel the road" experience that the E90 gave me.

Mark K commented: June 26, 2013, 8:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by elistan

I own a RWD Sport Line with the 704 M Sport suspension - it rocks. You're doing yourself a disservice in writing off the entire F30 line based on that one drive.

This is an interesting observation that made me think of the following:

BMW is doing itself disservice when offering default F30 as it is right now. The default F30 should be equipped as specified above and those who want Lexus experience with the roundel on the hood should pay extra for it.

Yes, I do realize that you are making people pay MORE for LESS, but that isn't really unheard of - quite the contrary. Besides, by doing what they are doing, they are turning off otherwise loyal buyers and catching those that "BMW lease is $10/month less than Lexus, it is as comfortable as Lexus and it has navigation, too". The latter group will go anywhere on the next lease return, the first group will want to stay.

I don't know how it is in other markets, but when I was buying my current car (E92), I had to wait quite a bit before given the chance to drive 328i MT, not even 335i. And that happened to be used car - there was nothing in new inventory that I wanted to test drive. Mind you, this was only about MT as coupe had sport suspension default. Now imagine wanting MT, M-Sport with DHP to test drive or, God forbid, get one as a loaner. Keep dreaming.

So, quite a bit of us that enjoy E9x generation are obviously turned off at continuous Buick experience when in contact with F30 equipped as dealers around here want for a quick sale. I also happen to think that the most asinine idea out there was to make people pay extra for leather and heated seats when they pick Luxury line or make people add sh*t like proper tires and adaptive suspension when they pick Sport line.

But what do I know ...

MasterYoda commented: June 26, 2013, 9:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark K

This is an interesting observation that made me think of the following:

BMW is doing itself disservice when offering default F30 as it is right now. The default F30 should be equipped as specified above and those who want Lexus experience with the roundel on the hood should pay extra for it.

Yes, I do realize that you are making people pay MORE for LESS, but that isn't really unheard of - quite the contrary. Besides, by doing what they are doing, they are turning off otherwise loyal buyers and catching those that "BMW lease is $10/month less than Lexus, it is as comfortable as Lexus and it has navigation, too". The latter group will go anywhere on the next lease return, the first group will want to stay.

I don't know how it is in other markets, but when I was buying my current car (E92), I had to wait quite a bit before given the chance to drive 328i MT, not even 335i. And that happened to be used car - there was nothing in new inventory that I wanted to test drive. Mind you, this was only about MT as coupe had sport suspension default. Now imagine wanting MT, M-Sport with DHP to test drive or, God forbid, get one as a loaner. Keep dreaming.

So, quite a bit of us that enjoy E9x generation are obviously turned off at continuous Buick experience when in contact with F30 equipped as dealers around here want for a quick sale. I also happen to think that the most asinine idea out there was to make people pay extra for leather and heated seats when they pick Luxury line or make people add sh*t like proper tires and adaptive suspension when they pick Sport line.

But what do I know ...

Thank you mark. I couldn't have said it better myself. The Buick experience has been a real turnoff for me coming from the e92 335. I have been kicking myself for not ordering an e92 335is before production ceased. I have decided to let my e92 go and give the F32 a shot. I really hope I'm not making a mistake by doing this. I am Ordering a 435 xDrive M sport with DHP (xDrive for wifey) for ED this fall. If I'm unhappy I see an S5 in my future. I'm not driving a BMW for status, rounded etc etc I really love the driving experience and if that's gone we'll so am I

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Zeichen311 commented: June 26, 2013, 12:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark K

BMW is doing itself disservice when offering default F30 as it is right now. The default F30 should be equipped as specified above and those who want Lexus experience with the roundel on the hood should pay extra for it.

Yes, I do realize that you are making people pay MORE for LESS, but that isn't really unheard of - quite the contrary. Besides, by doing what they are doing, they are turning off otherwise loyal buyers and catching those that "BMW lease is $10/month less than Lexus, it is as comfortable as Lexus and it has navigation, too". The latter group will go anywhere on the next lease return, the first group will want to stay.

... Now imagine wanting MT, M-Sport with DHP to test drive or, God forbid, get one as a loaner. Keep dreaming.

So, quite a bit of us that enjoy E9x generation are obviously turned off at continuous Buick experience when in contact with F30 equipped as dealers around here want for a quick sale. I also happen to think that the most asinine idea out there was to make people pay extra for leather and heated seats when they pick Luxury line or make people add sh*t like proper tires and adaptive suspension when they pick Sport line.

But what do I know ...

Quite a lot. ^^This, this, this!

I know a former CCA officer who put it to a BMW NA exec in words to this effect: "What's going on over there [Munich]? We spend 30 years telling everyone why BMWs are so great and just when they start to get it, you start building Lexuses." The baseline character of the cars has changed.

Since I bought my first BMW over a decade ago, I have had the opportunity to drive about two dozen different BMW models and variants, from M & Z cars to loaded 7ers to beaten-down E24s to SAVs and most everything in between. What stood out is that on a certain level, all of them felt like a BMW. No matter how they were equipped, their tremendous feedback and control let you drive a big, cushy sedan to 8/10ths with as much confidence as a high-strung roadster. The so-called "BMW DNA" was always evident. It was clear that these were machines built to yield the left lane of the autobahn only to sports cars and supercars. Even non-enthusiasts could sense something clearly different about a BMW--any BMW--and remark on it. Not everyone liked it, but it was unmistakable.

Recent models (not just the F30) have lost that. They do not exude that "BMW DNA" unless you order the right equipment. The difference in driving dynamics between a stripped BMW and its competition is nearly invisible or, worse, visibly inferior. That is shocking and sad.

That is what many of us long-timers are griping about. Sure, if you tick the correct options, you can still build a proper BMW that has all that magic--but for how long? Manual transmissions are going away in a self-defeating spiral of disinterest and scarcity. If one must search far & wide to find and test-drive cars equipped with the best driver-oriented options, how long before sales of those options plummet? How long after that before they become irrelevant, like manuals? How can BMW assess the true demand for such options, when they package them such that it is expensive for dealers to stock enough cars to showcase them?

Don't get me wrong: These are still great cars. This is about fighting to keep a hard-earned, well-honed and historically distinctive reputation and position in the market. Right now, I would love to see the 3er miss the cut for the Car & Driver 10Best list. BMW would assess the reasons and move to correct them faster than you could say "pothole explosion."

Ironically, BMW may have assured that outcome by rebranding the 3er Coupe as the 4 Series. Eligibility for the C&D 10Best pool is limited to "new or significantly updated" models. The 4 Series is new but there are no significant changes lined up for the 3 Series. A win for the coupe would no longer allow BMW to claim an unbroken streak for the "3 Series," unless the sedan also wins on its own merits. Then again, there is the 320i, introduced this year....

Mind you, I was paying attention during the E36->E46 and the E46->E90 transitions, too. While it's true some of the complaints are being rehashed, there is a clear difference this time around.

elistan commented: June 26, 2013, 12:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark K

This is an interesting observation that made me think of the following:

The default F30 should be equipped as specified above and those who want Lexus experience with the roundel on the hood should pay extra for it.

Agreed. I never would have purchased a BMW if it only came with the base suspension. (However, I did drive an E90 sedan about a year before I got the F30. I was quite disappointed in it's driving dynamics and decided to pass on purchasing. So I don't think this is quite as new a trend as some longtime BMW owners think it is.)

mr_clueless commented: June 26, 2013, 1:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

Quite a lot. ^^This, this, this!

I know a former CCA officer who put it to a BMW NA exec in words to this effect: "What's going on over there [Munich]? We spend 30 years telling everyone why BMWs are so great and just when they start to get it, you start building Lexuses." The baseline character of the cars has changed.

Since I bought my first BMW over a decade ago, I have had the opportunity to drive about two dozen different BMW models and variants, from M & Z cars to loaded 7ers to beaten-down E24s to SAVs and most everything in between. What stood out is that on a certain level, all of them felt like a BMW. No matter how they were equipped, their tremendous feedback and control let you drive a big, cushy sedan to 8/10ths with as much confidence as a high-strung roadster. The so-called "BMW DNA" was always evident. It was clear that these were machines built to yield the left lane of the autobahn only to sports cars and supercars. Even non-enthusiasts could sense something clearly different about a BMW--any BMW--and remark on it. Not everyone liked it, but it was unmistakable.

Recent models (not just the F30) have lost that. They do not exude that "BMW DNA" unless you order the right equipment. The difference in driving dynamics between a stripped BMW and its competition is nearly invisible or, worse, visibly inferior. That is shocking and sad.

That is what many of us long-timers are griping about. Sure, if you tick the correct options, you can still build a proper BMW that has all that magic--but for how long? Manual transmissions are going away in a self-defeating spiral of disinterest and scarcity. If one must search far & wide to find and test-drive cars equipped with the best driver-oriented options, how long before sales of those options plummet? How long after that before they become irrelevant, like manuals? How can BMW assess the true demand for such options, when they package them such that it is expensive for dealers to stock enough cars to showcase them?

Don't get me wrong: These are still great cars. This is about fighting to keep a hard-earned, well-honed and historically distinctive reputation and position in the market. Right now, I would love to see the 3er miss the cut for the Car & Driver 10Best list. BMW would assess the reasons and move to correct them faster than you could say "pothole explosion."

Ironically, BMW may have assured that outcome by rebranding the 3er Coupe as the 4 Series. Eligibility for the C&D 10Best pool is limited to "new or significantly updated" models. The 4 Series is new but there are no significant changes lined up for the 3 Series. A win for the coupe would no longer allow BMW to claim an unbroken streak for the "3 Series," unless the sedan also wins on its own merits. Then again, there is the 320i, introduced this year....

Mind you, I was paying attention during the E36->E46 and the E46->E90 transitions, too. While it's true some of the complaints are being rehashed, there is a clear difference this time around.

Agreed. I never would have purchased a BMW if it only came with the base suspension. (However, I did drive an E90 sedan about a year before I got the F30. I was quite disappointed in it's driving dynamics and decided to pass on purchasing. So I don't think this is quite as new a trend as some longtime BMW owners think it is.)

Regarding the E90, I think this is debatable. I drive an E90 with the base suspension and find the handling to be excellent. it may not have the ultimate in grip but it's doubtless a fine handling car, neutral and with great steering and feedback. It's far better than the base F30.

408Racer commented: June 26, 2013, 1:42 pm

Excellent read, Zeichen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

...Mind you, I was paying attention during the E36->E46 and the E46->E90 transitions, too. While it's true some of the complaints are being rehashed, there is a clear difference this time around.

E36/E46->E90 was a giant evolutionary step mostly in terms of the sheetmetal. F30 is indeed an equally huge step in terms of feel.

The cars are evolving (not necessarily for the better)...one leading indicator is the increasing rarity of a third pedal.

Perhaps the tea leaves that BMW is reading are telling them that in order to survive, they need to be less Neanderthal...be softer, smoother and more refined in order to survive.

Jamesonsviggen commented: June 26, 2013, 1:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Regarding the E90, I think this is debatable. I drive an E90 with the base suspension and find the handling to be excellent. it may not have the ultimate in grip but it's doubtless a fine handling car, neutral and with great steering and feedback. It's far better than the base F30.

No one is heralding the base F30 suspension, it is softer than anything E90.

But again, the 704 is good and I think you have yet to drive an F30 so equipped.

If there was no 704 option on the F30 I would not own this car.

Michael Schott commented: June 26, 2013, 2:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

No one is heralding the base F30 suspension, it is softer than anything E90.

But again, the 704 is good and I think you have yet to drive an F30 so equipped.

If there was no 704 option on the F30 I would not own this car.

You are correct that I have not driven an F30 with the M Sport (704) suspension. I'm sure it's an improvement and I hope to get a chance tonight as I am attending my Ultimate Driving Event. However I believe all the 3 series on my dealer's lot are xDrive versions. If they do not have a RWD Sport version for me to drive I may ask to see if a local owner on this site would let me drive their car.

BlueF30 commented: June 26, 2013, 2:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

You are correct that I have not driven an F30 with the M Sport (704) suspension. I'm sure it's an improvement and I hope to get a chance tonight as I am attending my Ultimate Driving Event. However I believe all the 3 series on my dealer's lot are xDrive versions. If they do not have a RWD Sport version for me to drive I may ask to see if a local owner on this site would let me drive their car.

There was one there about a week ago. I just got mine yesterday. We can meet up to drive it if they don't have one. Mine's a RWD Sport Line w/AT.

Michael Schott commented: June 26, 2013, 2:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueF30

There was one there about a week ago. I just got mine yesterday. We can meet up to drive it if they don't have one. Mine's a RWD Sport Line w/AT.

At Erhard in Farmington Hills? I will most certainly take you up on your kind offer if they don't have one. Congrats on the new car by the way.

BlueF30 commented: June 26, 2013, 4:09 pm

Yep, Erhard FH. Just let me know. And thanks!

Supermax commented: June 26, 2013, 8:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 408Racer

The cars are evolving (not necessarily for the better)...one leading indicator is the increasing rarity of a third pedal.

Perhaps the tea leaves that BMW is reading are telling them that in order to survive, they need to be less Neanderthal...be softer, smoother and more refined in order to survive.

Agreed. For the vast majority of people, who don't read enthusiast forums or car magazines, BMW is still the ultimate driving machine, because that's what the commercials say. And it's been ingrained in car culture for the last 30 years, because it was true.

It seems that now the overall plan is to get a whole new client base, people who like comfort over driving. So they will get all the new clients, while still maintaining the old client base due to the established general opinion about BMW. It will take some time before the mass public realizes what people on this forum see now...and by then maybe BMW will already have another business plan.

Our BMW engineering and design teams are dedicated to creating vehicles that move today's consumers and their demand for enhanced utility and more versatility. Customer feedback plays an integral role in improving product design and development. We appreciate the time you have taken to share your thoughts regarding the BMW 3 Series.

The BMW Customer Relations and Services Department is available Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time. You can reach us at 1-800-831-1117.

Sincerely,

Rachael Schuster
Customer Relations and Services
Representative

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Saintor commented: July 3, 2013, 2:23 pm

It is a bit extraordinary that this is published online TODAY. I was sure that it was something at least 1 yo but it was published in the mag a few months ago.

In terms of real-world speed, the two cars are evenly matched, posting identical results on the 5-to-60-mph rolling-start test, where the naturally aspirated six's instant response beats the four's turbo lag. On the conventional 060 run, the more powerful four-banger is 0.4 second quicker-and as speeds increase, the new car pulls ever farther ahead. Add to that its enormous 6-mpg EPA-combined-rating bonus, and it seems like the downsized turbo engine, with its direct injection and auto stop/start system, finally pulls a big lead on the old car.

Not so fast. In real-world driving, we observed a gain of less than 1.5 mpg. At that rate, all of the new car's expensive technology would save a tank (roughly 17.5 gallons) of fuel every 10,000 miles. Is that trade-off worth it?

Nope. Our decision was unanimous: We liked the old car better, if only by a slight margin. And later, when we hopped into a post-face-lift, Sport-package-equipped E90 328i, it was game over for the F30. No contest.

As a premium luxury vehicle with all manner of tech gizmos, the new 328i might equal-or better-the old. But for driving enthusiasts, the E90 remains the benchmark. The F30 might be bigger and prettier, but to us, it's not necessarily better.

Not sure if that's a good article. It seems their decision was based solely on arbitrary personal opinions, not facts. Let's see...

According to them, the F30 looks better, is faster, has a more comfortable ride, has better fuel economy (No idea how they got only 1.5mpg difference by the way. I'm getting noticeably better mpg in my F30 335 than I had in my E90 328), and the steering between the two is a "toss-up" (surprisingly).

So where is the reason that E90 is better? Because it has less wind noise from the moonroof? Or is it the "cheap materials" in the F30, which have been brought up here before and completely disproved?

The one thing they're right about is that the I6 sounds better than the I4. Well duh. But the 335i F30 has the same exact engine as the E90, so if you compare those, even this negative goes out the window. They go on to say that when they compared the F30 to the Sport E90, it became "no contest". And yet they don't provide a single reason as to why.

Honestly, this article sounds like their only answer to "Why is E90 better than F30?" is "Because we feel that it is". That's not very good journalism.

Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 5:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermax

Not sure if that's a good article. It seems their decision was based solely on arbitrary personal opinions, not facts. Let's see...

According to them, the F30 looks better, is faster, has a more comfortable ride, has better fuel economy (No idea how they got only 1.5mpg difference by the way. I'm getting noticeably better mpg in my F30 335 than I had in my E90 328), and the steering between the two is a "toss-up" (surprisingly).

So where is the reason that E90 is better? Because it has less wind noise from the moonroof? Or is it the "cheap materials" in the F30, which have been brought up here before and completely disproved?

The one thing they're right about is that the I6 sounds better than the I4. Well duh. But the 335i F30 has the same exact engine as the E90, so if you compare those, even this negative goes out the window. They go on to say that when they compared the F30 to the Sport E90, it became "no contest". And yet they don't provide a single reason as to why.

Honestly, this article sounds like their only answer to "Why is E90 better than F30?" is "Because we feel that it is". That's not very good journalism.

I just kind of go meh about the whole thing.

The F30 had some things better, and the E90 had something THEY preferred.

How do you think things would go if they brought out an E46 Zhp either now or 5 years ago and compared it to the E90? I think the same things would be said about the E46 and them pick that as the better drivers car.

None of these people are actually voting with their buying dollars, buying the cars for their families. It's like taking a vacation. Man it's fun, you can do all kinds of fun things and write about it. But how many actually want to live in those places they vacation to.

The F30 is a great place to settle down, a lot of things going for it if you are going to make it your DD. Sure, you might like SOME things better about older car-yeah great when you visit. But when it's your money and you are going to live with it, you might look at things differently. Writers in articles like these are just guys going on vacation.

captainaudio commented: July 3, 2013, 5:16 pm

The reaction to the Road & Track article will be the same as the reaction to all other reviews on this forum. When posters agree with the review the reviewers are knowledgeable experts. When posters don't agree the reviewers are idiots that are full of crap and were probably bought off by advertising dollars.

They very clearly stated that they liked the E90 better, not that the E90 was necessarily a better car than the F30.

Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 5:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

They very clearly stated that they liked the E90 better, not that the E90 was necessarily a better car than the F30.

The key is, those are two very different things. Many people who cling to either side of the argument don't seem to remember that.

Saintor commented: July 3, 2013, 6:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

They very clearly stated that they liked the E90 better, not that the E90 was necessarily a better car than the F30.

Unless you just like playing with words - yes they did

Quote:

And later, when we hopped into a post-face-lift, Sport-package-equipped E90 328i, it was game over for the F30. No contest.
...
The F30 might be bigger and prettier, but to us, it's not necessarily better.

bayoucity commented: July 3, 2013, 6:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The reaction to the Road & Track article will be the same as the reaction to all other reviews on this forum. When posters agree with the review the reviewers are knowledgeable experts. When posters don't agree the reviewers are idiots that are full of crap and were probably bought off by advertising dollars.

They very clearly stated that they liked the E90 better, not that the E90 was necessarily a better car than the F30.

Amen.

Supermax commented: July 3, 2013, 6:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

When posters agree with the review the reviewers are knowledgeable experts. When posters don't agree the reviewers are idiots that are full of crap and were probably bought off by advertising dollars.

Eh, not really, at least with me. I absolutely loved my E90. I also love my F30. I really can't call one or the other a "no contest" better driving car. Both are better than any other car I've ever driven.

In an article like this, I'd just like to see more facts rather than baseless opinions. It seems they took the (extremely) easy way out, and just said what everybody's already been talking about: that cars in general are becoming more comfortable and less about driving. But without facts, their opinion doesn't mean much.

Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 7:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Unless you just like playing with words - yes they did

Haven't you been clinging to the fact that in 5-60 rolling tests from different times and scenarios that the E90 328 showed a 4 tenth advantage over the F30 328? Isn't that the figure you whipped out and dismissed 0-60/0-100/1/4/trap speed as abusive?

Here in your test you have both cars tested at the same time by the same people. Is it my eyes or am I seeing no 5-60mph advantage at all?

I cannot see a single objective figure that favors the E90 and notice there is no handling and braking numbers either. Also note, that despite the loaded F30, the lesser equipped E90 with 16" wheels compared to the 18's of the F30 and likely many other equipment variations, the F30 weights 26lbs more.

So yes, we now have less steering heft/feedback, it rides softer with more roll and the N20 does not sound as good as the E90. But we have faster in every measurable way, more room, more standard equipment, better fuel economy and with largely NO weight penalty.

You win some and you lose some.

johnc_22 commented: July 3, 2013, 7:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermax

is it the "cheap materials" in the F30, which have been brought up here before and completely disproved?

I'm genuinely interested in why you say this. I have had an F30 sport/premium 328i loaner for the past few days and my least favorite thing about the car is the interior, especially compared to my E90 . . . That article pretty much nailed my feelings about it. Tap the plastic lining the transmission tunnel - hollow rattly sound.

captainaudio commented: July 3, 2013, 7:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermax

Eh, not really, at least with me. I absolutely loved my E90. I also love my F30. I really can't call one or the other a "no contest" better driving car. Both are better than any other car I've ever driven.

In an article like this, I'd just like to see more facts rather than baseless opinions. It seems they took the (extremely) easy way out, and just said what everybody's already been talking about***********: that cars in general are becoming more comfortable and less about driving. But without facts, their opinion doesn't mean much.

An "Opinion" does not require facts to back it up if it is put forward as an opinion. If I state that I prefer the steaks at the Outback Steakhouse to those at the Longhorn Steakhouse I do not need facts to back up my opinion and someone else coming up with "facts" are not going to change my opinion.

"Fun to Drive" is very subjective. The Mazda Miata does not return extremely impressive performance numbers but the Miata is almost universally recognized as a very rewarding cars to drive.

SilverX3 commented: July 3, 2013, 7:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

The key is, those are two very different things. Many people who cling to either side of the argument don't seem to remember that.

E90 is more of a grown up E46
F30 is more of a lexus wanabe

Saintor commented: July 3, 2013, 7:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Haven't you been clinging to the fact that in 5-60 rolling tests from different times and scenarios that the E90 328 showed a 4 tenth advantage over the F30 328? Isn't that the figure you whipped out and dismissed 0-60/0-100/1/4/trap speed as abusive?

Here in your test you have both cars tested at the same time by the same people. Is it my eyes or am I seeing no 5-60mph advantage at all?

The article claims 6.7s for *both*. Marginal real life mpg advantage for the N20.

*** What they claim is essentially what I have told you for a year now. ***

Yeah the E90 is just more interesting to drive and I am glad that they put the focus on the engine.

Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 8:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

The article claims 6.7s for *both*. Marginal real life mpg advantage for the N20.

*** What they claim is essentially what I have told you for a year now. ***

Yeah the E90 is just more interesting to drive and I am glad that they put the focus on the engine.

No, you claimed for a year now that where it matter most(to you) in non abusive testing the E90 328 is faster than the F30 328.

Here we have a definitive answer as both cars were tested head to head.

You were wrong. It's ok-you can admit it.

There is no figure that the E90 was faster in, and in the one where you claimed the E90 would be faster, it was not.

25mpg vs 27mpg, marginal to some, nearly 10% difference in fuel economy is what every manufacturer is fighting to achieve in a redesign. Saddle that same dinky E90 with grown up wheels and more content like the F30 and it's 25mpg will suffer. With the F30 you get a 30% stiffer unibody, more standard safety gear, more tech, more room, and you do not pay a MPG penalty, in fact you get an improvement.

But wait, here comes your argument.

That in fantasy land, you know where such a thing does not exist, BMW instead makes a N52 derivative that with DI and more development would have been more efficient and faster than the N20. I know I know.

Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 8:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverX3

E90 is more of a grown up E46
F30 is more of a lexus wanabe

Saintor commented: July 3, 2013, 8:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

No, you claimed for a year now that where it matter most(to you) in non abusive testing the E90 328 is faster than the F30 328.

Here we have a definitive answer as both cars were tested head to head.

You were wrong. It's ok-you can admit it.

There is no figure that the E90 was faster in, and in the one where you claimed the E90 would be faster, it was not.

Obviously you can't read properly. I only said that in real life the N20 was no significantly faster.

And whatever the numbers, what matters is feel. Where the N20 sucks big time.

Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 8:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Obviously you can't read properly. I only said that in real life the N20 was no significantly faster.

And whatever the numbers, what matters is feel. Where the N20 sucks big time.

Hehe, no you didn't. I read very well, I also have a good memory.

You countless times said the E90 was 4 tenths faster in 5-60 than the F30 and I would try and counter that they were different tests, different drivers, different times etc.

Here you have definitive information and it proved you wrong. It's really that simple.

I know your OPINION that the N20 sucks, heard it a million times.

Of all the F30 hangups, I am more into knowing it could roll less and some more heft and steering feel would be welcome. But your N20 hangup, that is not the thing to get caught up with in the F30. I can find other professional testers who rave about the N20.

Saintor commented: July 3, 2013, 8:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Hehe, no you didn't. I read very well, I also have a good memory.

You countless times said the E90 was 4 tenths faster in 5-60 than the F30 .

Then prove it. You full of it.

MasterYoda commented: July 3, 2013, 9:22 pm

It seems we can keep going around and around on this issue and never get anywhere. After numerous test drives in the F30 I just can't see myself giving up a car I love e92 335 for the F30 335 or 435 and be happy with that decision. At the end of the day the F30 has is good points but it doesn't seem any of them improve driving dynamics. Its actually the opposite ! Fuel economy. Bigger/more legroom etc etc. These are not the reasons I drive BMWs and I'm obviously not alone. If I wanted those things I would get a Toyota/Lexus. I'm going to get an F30 335 for the wife because frankly she isn't able to tell the difference like I can and she's wooed by the techie stuff. I on the other hand have decided to get a CPO e92 335is MT because I want the "true" BMW experience. Just to recap. I am getting a used car over a new one because its a better drivers car in every way! If that doesn't say something I don't know what will!

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Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 9:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Then prove it. You full of it.

OK.

But I know that no matter how much evidence I provide that you asked for you will side step.

I am not going to mull over every post in every thread where you chime in with your hate of the N20 and mention that the N52 is faster in the finite test of your choosing.

For fair background, you chimed in with defense of the dynos and tests of the F30 and noted that a test from years ago of the CD E90 was faster in 5-60 and got better MPG in testing. My counter was time and again, different variables like tires, drivers, the cars had never been tested against each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

And I have no idea why people think that the 2012 328i performance is night and day difference with the 2011 328. This is flat-out wrong.

If there is a spec where the turbo should shine because of "torque", this would be 5-60mph; from idle, you just mash the throttle and *gone*.

The funny little thing is that the E90 328i is *quicker* at this game. More immediacy and no turbo lag. 5-60mph in 6.4s rather 6.6s. This despite the fact that the F30 has short gear ratios! And icing on the cake, they observed an better real-world fuel economy on the E90, 25mpg vs 23mpg for the F30.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

My logic is just all fine. Yours clearly lives in fantasy land.

5-60mph is certainly a key feature. 0-60mph 0-100mph and 1/4 mile are irrelevant because people who perform them cheat/abuse the powertrains like mad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Tell me that you were joking. Otherwise, that is just plain retard.

Again, why don't you answer the question. When was the last time that you pre-rev'ed your engine at 3500-4000rpm in order to get the best 0-60mph 0-100mph 0-... you name it?

This is why The 5-60mph is definitely the best figure since it can't be cheated. This is also where the N20 low-torque thing should tremendously and failed to do so. It is common among all FI small displacement engines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

In the real life, if you mash a F30 328i's throttle from idle, chances are that an old E90 328i will pass you. On a racetrack, the F30 N20 will eat the E90 N52 for lunch. Less obvious on streets, as I showed.

In summary. I get it, you have a hatred of the N20 F30 and you feel the need to come to the F30 section to remind owners of their cars how YOU feel about it.

To prove your point you focused on data of CD tests years apart that showed a 5-60 advantage AND MPG advantage of the E90 328.

Now today you linked an article with definitive proof, definitive same time-same variable testing.

The 5-60 did not favor the N52 and neither did the average MPG. Above you bashed the N20 that it could not better the N52 and was less efficient. Here we see that when tested head to head, ignoring all of the figures you did not agree with where the N20 was faster, it was equal in 5-60 even though you said due to the lag of small displacement FI engines, it's off idle performance suffers. Here we see that is not true. Even when armed with 2.0L vs 3.0L and just off idle, the larger engine had no advantages. Here again, tested same time-same way, the N20 offered a nearly 10% MPG advantage while being FASTER in the measures you dismiss while having more equipment and being a larger size.

But go on, tell me how I am crazy, didn't read it right.

Saintor commented: July 3, 2013, 9:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

But go on, tell me how I am crazy, didn't read it right.

Aboslutely. You are indeed crazy and totally proved that;

1. You can't read
2. You don't have a good memory
3. Nothing about "You countless times said the E90 was 4 tenths faster in 5-60 than the F30 ." was true - you can't even find ONE SINGLE extract that supports this.

Now we have established who is wrong.

GeoX750Li commented: July 3, 2013, 9:54 pm

Ok, this has gone too far.

Do you really think Outback is better than Longhorn? No way.

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Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 9:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saintor

Aboslutely. You are indeed crazy and totally proved that;

1. You can't read
2. You don't have a good memory
3. Nothing about "You countless times said the E90 was 4 tenths faster in 5-60 than the F30 ." was true - you can't even find ONE SINGLE extract that supports this.

Now we have established who is wrong.

Yeah, you're right. You went on about it being two tenths faster-not four tenths.

You went on and on that the E90 was FASTER than the F30 in 5-60 and had better average fuel economy.

You were wrong.

You have yet to admit to being wrong.

I am a grown up, confident enough to say I was wrong when I thought the difference was .4, when in fact it was .2 See, that's not so hard.

Now you can admit that you were wrong.

I'll wait.

edit: Since I have been challenged to dig up your old quotes, it's fun to see early bashing before I was around. In one thread from 2/12, before mags tested the F30 328 you blasted it by giving off numbers of the N20 Z4 and assuming it would be the same. The Z4 which ran a 14.4 at 96mph and did 7.1 in your precious 5-60. It's good to see that the F30 was faster in actual testing than your assumed numbers posted by the Z4. So you began pooping on the N20 328 before a single magazine had tested one lol. I think your hatred of it is a bit unhealthy.

You also stated clearly you had driven an N20 X1 and hated it. Please confirm, if you have driven an F30 328.

Michael Schott commented: July 3, 2013, 10:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

An "Opinion" does not require facts to back it up if it is put forward as an opinion. If I state that I prefer the steaks at the Outback Steakhouse to those at the Longhorn Steakhouse I do not need facts to back up my opinion and someone else coming up with "facts" are not going to change my opinion.

"Fun to Drive" is very subjective. The Mazda Miata does not return extremely impressive performance numbers but the Miata is almost universally recognized as a very rewarding cars to drive.

Perfectly stated CA.

bayoucity commented: July 3, 2013, 10:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoX750Li

Ok, this has gone too far.

Do you really think Outback is better than Longhorn? No way.

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You are crossing the line. Morton's is better than both.

Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 10:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayoucity

You are crossing the line. Morton's is better than both.

I am a fan of the Capitol Grill.

captainaudio commented: July 3, 2013, 10:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I am a fan of the Capitol Grill.

Do you have any facts to back that up?

CA

Jamesonsviggen commented: July 3, 2013, 10:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Do you have any facts to back that up?

CA

I have yet to get diarrhea from eating there. Fact.

Jugghaid commented: July 4, 2013, 1:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayoucity

You are crossing the line. Morton's is better than both.

If any of you ever get to Denver, get the Ribeye at Elways. I was a chef when I was much younger and it's hands down the best steak I have ever had. better than the Kobe beef when I was stationed in Japan.

Back on topic, JamesonViggen, you will never change Saintor's rhetoric. One thing I learned when I joined this site is that there will always be haters. Every objective comparison I have seen of the E90 vs F30 debate has gone to the F30. Almost every subjective comparison comes back to "feel" and "I like the E90 better, well....because that's what I drive"

I will give on the steering feel. No problem. I agree. But overall the F30 IN MY OPINION is a better car properly equipped than the E90. All day long.

I had the option to buy either.....in fact my dealer still has a couple of new E90's on the lot. I wonder why that is?????

I understand the instinct to argue with people that just want to bash what others drive and they don't. But you are (again, in my opinion and based solely on the content of posts here) one of the most informed posters on here and a gearhead like I am. Dont fall for the silly ****.

BlueF30 commented: July 4, 2013, 8:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jugghaid

If any of you ever get to Denver, get the Ribeye at Elways. I was a chef when I was much younger and it's hands down the best steak I have ever had. better than the Kobe beef when I was stationed in Japan.

Back on topic, JamesonViggen, you will never change Saintor's rhetoric. One thing I learned when I joined this site is that there will always be haters. Every objective comparison I have seen of the E90 vs F30 debate has gone to the F30. Almost every subjective comparison comes back to "feel" and "I like the E90 better, well....because that's what I drive"

I will give on the steering feel. No problem. I agree. But overall the F30 IN MY OPINION is a better car properly equipped than the E90. All day long.

I had the option to buy either.....in fact my dealer still has a couple of new E90's on the lot. I wonder why that is?????

I understand the instinct to argue with people that just want to bash what others drive and they don't. But you are (again, in my opinion and based solely on the content of posts here) one of the most informed posters on here and a gearhead like I am. Dont fall for the silly ****.