Wednesday, October 31, 2007

Cody G. Carson, who I’ve never met, e-mailed me about two years ago and I’ve been “sitting on it” until now. I try very hard not to make fun of pre-tribbers and the things that sometime come out of their belief, and I will attempt to give you the following information without doing so, but it’s very hard to do if you're anything like me.

Carson has invented a “Rapture Recorder” to videotape and document the rapture once it happens. He feels that it will help those left behind understand why cars and airplanes suddenly, without warning, crash due to disappearing people.

Unfortunately Carson misses that Christ’s coming will be seen by all, and that the world will have no doubts as to Who is behind the big event. I discussed this with him during some e-mail exchanges but it was clear that he didn’t really understand what I was telling him, as if what I was saying was somewhat foreign to him.

The “Rapture Recorder” is said to have different options and backups for the main switch that would trigger the devices to record what takes place at, or after, the rapture. But the main switch is a bone from a deceased Christian. When the rapture takes place the bone will disappear from the device to meet its owner in the sky, the switch will be activated and recording will ensue.

I’ll give him credit for coming up with an interesting thought that would be great for a pre-trib movie, but unfortunately the recorder will be unnecessary and serve no purpose. Upon the real rapture that will take place after the Great Tribulation, Christ will come in visible form for the world to see. His wrath will begin and hail, fire and blood will be thrown to the earth, and a third of the earth, a third of the trees and a third of the grass will be burned up (Rev. 8:7). With the plagues that follow the first trumpet I’m guessing that much of the world will have little ability to watch TV, and I’m afraid that if power is still readily available, Cody’s “Rapture Recorder” will be left unnoticed. It will sit silently, still blinking a digital twelve o’clock. Oops, I made fun. But just a little.

Below is the entire e-mail that discussed the invention.

Rapture Recorder

Press Release: Explanation of the Rapture Recorder

Cody G. Carson publicly unveiled and demonstrated a prototype of hisinvention, the Rapture Recorder, during his first sermon at WordCovenant Fellowship church in East End Arkansas on Sunday nightMarch 13th. Cody purposed to use the invention to make a “leftbehind” documentary using captured video footage of the actualRapture. The documentary could then be used as a witnessing tool forthe post-Rapture witnesses of the Great Tribulation.

Background: In1999, Cody was working on a sci-fi oriented leftbehind movie plot. He did research in the rapture recorder’s designuntil a working plan was created. The Y2K style story plot was notfinished before the new millennium had started, so the story wasshelved. The Left Behind series was gaining popularity, and Codydecided to explore a different story line that would be moreoriginal. In the mean time, he discussed the invention with severalindividuals. The original design was very complicated and expensive.Cody then designed a more inexpensive Rapture Recorder, but wasuneasy about the reaction he had been receiving while perusing theidea as a real invention. The project was shelved again until afterCody completed the movie Culture Wars. Cody was busy preparing twomore movies when he felt the calling to preach his first sermon, andused the working invention as a visual aid/wakeup call about rapturereality in his sermon that lasted approximately one and a half hours.

The device was explained in this manor: Cameras would be set up inmultiple time zones located in high traffic areas such as busyintersections, public walkways, airports, etc. Locations wouldtarget a heavy Christian population. The cameras would send videoand sound data to a website that records a continuous thirty minutetime block. When the Rapture happens, an automatic switch wouldsignal the website to save the previously recorded thirty minutesand then record three additional hours to document the initialreaction of the people, to capture the car crashes, plain crashes,fires, and the responding rescue and emergency vehicles. Time anddate codes would be imprinted on the footage, which again, wouldrepresent thirty minutes pre-rapture, and three hours post-rapturetime.

The Rapture Recorder can be automatically activated in various waysby the vanishing of a person. The activation method used in thesermon was a switch made from a spring clamp with a pull switchmounted in the handgrip. This “Rapture Switch”, as demonstrated inthe sermon, held a piece of wood that represented a surgicallyremoved bone of a deceased Christian organ donor. In thedemonstration, the removal of the “bone” from the clamp, caused itto close, activating the switch, and triggering an alarm. The alarmwas connected to the non-operational computer to represent therecorder’s activation. Since the rapture is to be a literal andphysical occurrence, it is logical to assume that the removed bonewould be returned to its owner upon vanishing.

Once activated, the computer would be programmed to automatically goonline and log on to a specified home page, which would be theactivation-or “record page” of the recorder’s website. The websitewould challenge with a password, and the computer, having apreviously stored password would log on to the page. Log in wouldsignal the website to save pre-rapture footage and begin recordingand saving post-rapture footage.

Example: If the rapture happened at exactly Midnight, the constantlyrunning cameras and website have everything from 11:30 PM untilMidnight already recorded in the recording window of the website.The Bone vanishes and the switch activates the computer. If it tooka total of five minutes for the computer to power up, boot upwindows, the start program to access the internet and for thecomputer to log on with the host website, and to begin recording,then post rapture recording begins at 12:05AM. The Recorder wouldsave the current 30 minutes (Everything from 11:35PM until 12:05AM)and record additional footage until 3:05AM. So it would effectivelycapture all video from 25 minutes prior to the Rapture until threehours and five minutes afterwards.

This makes it possible to film the actual Rapture, making the mostimportant documentary in history.

A second website, not discussed in the sermon would serve as amanual backup. It would record a full four-hour saved recordingwindow and would have a manual log in switch. Any left behindindividual with the password would be able to activate the secondwebsite. This is incase the clamp-switch does not work.

Also, an alternate triggering method, not discussed in the sermoncould be in the resurrection switch being placed over the hand orwrist of a corps to forgo the need for bone removal. The two-wireswitch could easily be connected via an underground extension cordto the computer. Various other switch designs and recorder designsexist; the one discussed above is simply the easiest to understand,and least expensive to build for the sermon/demonstration.

41 comments:

raul delgado
said...

Okay... That's just plain silly. You know, in all seriousness, I wonder how Pre-Trib believers are going to react when they find themselves in the Great Tribulation Period? I would love to see the faces of all those Pre-Trib teachers. What will they say then? I truly wish that all Pre-trib. folks would realize the truth, so that this and all Pre-trib. nonsense be "left behind".

Bravo, Amen, and Hallelujah! I agree 100 percent with you! I'm sure you would enjoy Googling "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," and "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)" - all penned by the author of the bestseller "The Rapture Plot" (Armageddon Books) which is the best and most documented book on the long hidden history of the pretrib rapture view which is only 177 years old! Lord bless. Irving

I think you folks need to grow up. Do you know what pretribbers will do "if" the rapture is not pretrib? They'll keep watching for the Lord's return. Prewrath believers are in direct disobedience to the Lord's commands. The bible says to be watching for his return NOW, if you are not doing that, you are deliberately disobeying. Luke 21:36 also tells you to pray that you will be able to escape ALL that's about to happen. You are'nt doing that either are you? Why not, the Lord commanded you to, once again that's disobedience. I guess you folks think you are brighter than Jesus. My guess is that you are the ones in store for a wake up call. If you are not watching as the Lord commanded you to, will you be taken if the rapture occurs today? I guess we'll find out, but I would'nt want to be you.

You said, "Luke 21:36 also tells you to pray that you will be able to escape ALL that's about to happen."

My response: "All" as in all the wars, earthquakes, calamities, etc. that have ever happened and will happen even before the start of Daniel's 70th Week? Or, "all" as in all of Daniel 70th Week? Or, "all" as in the Great Tribulation? Or, "all" as in the Day of His Wrath? Which "all" or time period was He referring to? Oh, and scripture please.

You said, "I guess you folks think you are brighter than Jesus."

My response: Now, that's just plain silly, next...

You said, "My guess..."

My response: Are you sure you want to stake your blessed assurance on "guessing"?

You said, "If you are not watching as the Lord commanded you to, will you be taken if the rapture occurs TODAY?"

My response: Wait, wait...ah, there is a yellow flag on the field. The referee says, "Illegal procedure, unfair imposition on scripture, 10 YARDS [then, blows his whistle]. You're only "guessing" and assuming that the rapture is imminent and thus could happen TODAY. We are to be expectant and ready for His return, which occurs after the Great Tribulation, when the triple sign of the sun, moon, and stars appears. Then, dbull, we can lift up our head, for at THAT time, our redemption draweth nigh.

I watch for the LORD's return just as He said to, by continuing to serve Him every day that I may stand before Him and not be ashamed when He appears. Do you have a specific verse that you would like to quote to support your view that we must watch for the LORD's return? I notice you did not cite a reference for that.

You are misquoting Luke 21:36. The idea in the verse is to watch and pray so that you may be counted worthy to escape. It is not that we are to pray to be able to escape. We are to watch and pray, that is, to maintain a daily right relationship with God that we may have a righteous standing with Him. By our righteous standing we will escape these things and stand before the Son of Man.

In addition to misquoting, you are taking it out of context as well. The backdrop is not the rapture. The word appears nowhere in the text. Instead the backdrop begins in verse 34 and has to do with turning toward drunkenness and the cares of this life and neglecting to pay attention. These things will come as a snare to ALL who dwell on the face of the earth. Those who are in right relationship with God will escape because they "watch and pray". But what will they escape? The great tribulation? Where does the phrase appear in the text?

The best way to interpret this is to look back in the text to see what is actually there, not what some may read into it. Since Christ has already explained that there will be a sign before His coming, read verses 29-31, He can't be talking about a signless event. Instead, He is speaking of escaping the terror that the LORD Jesus will bring with Him at His coming. This is why people are having heart attacks out of sheer terror when they see the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, because they know they will suffer at the LORD's hand when He comes, read verse 26.

I think it's kind of funny when Pre-Tribbers go to Luke 21 to try to prove their case. Here is where we find the verse, "When these things begin to come to pass, THEN LOOK UP, for your redemption draweth nigh." How could we look up when we see things start to come to pass when there are no signs to precede our redemption?

Do you have answers to these questions, or do you claim to be smarter than Jesus? Would you care to have a friendly debate, or haven't you researched the matter sufficiently yet? Let me know.

Okay, I’ve found time to take your bait. You didn’t mention where in the bible you came to the conclusion that we are to watch for His return so I’ll post it for you.

Matthew 24:42 NIV"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

It appears as though you think that “keep watch” means that we are supposed to be looking up into the sky, watching for Jesus to be riding on the clouds. Instead of arguing about what the term means I think it would be more profitable to understand the context from which the term is taken. This will prove that our accusations are false.

Clearly you think that Jesus somehow, without indication, stopped speaking of His coming that will take place AFTER the Great Tribulation (24:29) and began speaking of a pre-trib rapture. I’ve discussed this with you before so I know that your mind is made up, and that you probably have even stopped reading what I’m writing here, but I want to take this opportunity to make sure that all readers understand the clarity of Matthew 24.

After speaking of the abomination and the Great Tribulation Jesus says, “When you see all these thing, recognize that He is near, right at the door.” (Matt. 24:33)

We know that Jesus is speaking of His coming that will take place AFTER the Great Tribulations because He said, “All these things.” “All these things” can be nothing other than the things he just mentioned previously ie. the abomination, the Great Trib, etc.

Then, continuing in the same thought, Jesus said, “But of that day and hour no one knows…” (24:36)

You, like some others, will also us this verse and apply it to a pre-trib rapture by saying that His coming MUST be at any moment because He said we won’t know the day or hour. But as we see, Jesus is still speaking of His coming that takes place AFTER the Great Trib because He said, “But of THAT DAY.” If Jesus was to be speaking of His coming that takes place after the abomination, as He clearly was up to verse 35, He would be the poorest communicator on the planet if He all of a sudden switched His agenda and began speaking of a pre-trib rapture by referring to it as “that day.” “That day” is the day He was just speaking of that takes place AFTER the abomination and Great Trib.

Continuing to speak of “that day” He then speaks of the days of Noah and describes how “that day” will be like the days of Noah in verses 37-39. Then in verse 40 He says, “THEN there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. The “then” assures us that He is still speaking of the same subject-the coming of the Son of Man that will take place AFTER the events He previously mentioned.

Now we finally come to the verse in question. Jesus begins by saying, “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.”

“Therefore,” as anyone that understand basic language knows, is a word that connects the previous thought to what is said next. We’ve covered what Jesus said previously, so we know that the “keep[ing] watch” for the “day He is coming” in verse 42 can be referring to nothing other than the previous events Jesus spoke of. It cannot be referring to a pre-trib rapture, and pre-wrath believers are therefore not “deliberately disobeying the Lord’s commands” by not watching for a pre-trib rapture.

DBULL said:“Luke 21:36 also tells you to pray that you will be able to escape ALL that's about to happen. You are'nt doing that either are you? Why not, the Lord commanded you to, once again that's disobedience. I guess you folks think you are brighter than Jesus.”

Luke 21:34-36Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and THAT DAY will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

Again we see Jesus say, “That day,” and He warns us to not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life so that THAT DAY will not come on us suddenly like a trap. DBULL, what is “that day?” What day was Jesus just talking about? The day that will take place AFTER the sign in the sun, moon and stars. (Luke 21:25)

So we are to pray that we will “have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place.” If the pre-trib rapture is a prophesied event that is bound to take place why would we need to pray for a pre-trib rapture to help us escape? And why would Jesus clearly tell us that His coming would take place after the sign in the sun, moon and stars and then contradict His own words by then saying that we should pray to be a part of a different coming so that we could escape the day He just said that He would come?

Hello everyone,This is Cody G. Carson, the inventor of the Rapture Recorder. A few days ago, I discovered this mention of my invention by surprise. I made an announcement in several of my yahoo groups and invited people to visit here.

1st, I want to thank the Pre-wrath Tribune for being the first to publicly recognize this invention. Ironically, the pre-trib websites and ministries that were contacted about this three years ago have been silent. Perhaps, the concept of it offers too much of a change in comfortable thinking. Or is it that the ability of today’s technology and hardware to “hook-up” with an impending supernatural occurrence brings an uncomfortable level of realism to those who want to keep science in a separate category from its creator? [Have fun with that] Either way, I’m surprised that no one else has reported on it.

2nd, I ask the Pre-wrath Tribune to change the name link at the beginning of the article: My film production, screenplay writing, directing, acting and inventing credits are “Cody G. Carson.” There is another author who goes by “Cody Carson.”

3rd, I’d like to address those who are debating…….. Truth seekers, who are believers and those who are “yet-to-be believers”, will be reading these writings. We are their example of Christ; please be respectful to each other’s beliefs. The existence of so many denominations proves how diverse our interpretations of the plain language in verses can be. Revelation’s symbolic language and the word usage in other prophesy can only be understood with the correct knowledge of the keys that unlock these symbols. We must respect each other’s honest attempt at understanding this coded language. We don’t have to agree, but we need to agree to be civil in how we treat each other.

There are those who interpret that the prophesies in Revelation have already come to pass and that Christ’s kingdom is already here…. There are those who believe all Christians will be caught up in a rapture that precedes the second coming of Christ by seven years.(Please note that “pre-tribbers” do not consider the rapture to be the second coming, therefore, the rapture can be sudden and without signs, AND the second coming can follow the signs…… Some believe the rapture will happen 3 and a half years into the tribulation when the Mid-East peace deal is broken (Mid-tribbers”)……... Others think we will all be here until the second coming…… Others believe that the rapture will consist of only 144,000 who are taken from the twelve tribes of Israel ….. All of those views are wrong- except for one. Which one? I guess this is the place to debate that. As I stated in my one and only sermon so far, “If the recorder never gets built, it still is a useful tool in causing controversy and debate that will challenge faith and get people talking about the end times. That will provide witnessing opportunities.” In that respect, the invention is already doing its job.

As for my view, I’m okay with whatever the real truth is… Stay or go, my Lord and my savior is Jesus Christ. He’s a great boss to work for, and the retirement plan is ‘out of this world’.

Perhaps the Pre-wrath Tribune will start another thread where the invention itself can be discussed. We could discuss the construction, operation, applications, pitfalls and troubleshooting of the recorder without the participants having their “silly” pre-trib views shot down in contempt with prideful, challenging language. A link to this discussion would be there and those wanting to debate could be funneled here.

Thanks for stopping by, and I have changed your name to Cody G. Carson. You know, the reason I "sat" on your article for two years was because I wasn't sure how to write about it without making fun of the idea. Not because it isn't a creative or neat idea, but because of the irony that is attached to it due to, well, you read my little piece.

I TRY to make this a place where pre-trib individuals are not the focus, but where the teachings such as pre-trib are focused upon. But sometimes I may fall short. I have to admit that I am still wavering about making fun of your invention. One side of me understands what the bible clearly teaches and is inclined to point out the odd things that come about due to scriptural misunderstandings. But the other side of me knows that you're just a well intentioned believer.

IF you were a teacher of the doctrine I would have no problem pointing out the disagreements, but considering you are not really teaching the subject maybe I should have been a little easy on you? Again, sometimes it's hard for me to know.

Anyway, thanks for stopping by, and I appreciate your great attitude. As for the heated arguments that take place here sometimes, I'm afraid it's just unavoidable. I do my best to not insult, but what some see as insults others simply see as much needed biblical correction in a very messed up biblical subject.

Dave,Thank you for fixing the name. And thank you for treating me as fairly as you did in your post considering your belief about the rapture. My interpretation was not that you were making fun of the idea –--in the context of a pre-tribulation rapture---. I took it correctly that you were stating since a rapture would not happen prior to the second coming of Christ that the invention would be useless. And in that case I would agree; there would be no purpose for it to fill.

For the record, I would like to clarify something. It seems that the strongest argument against the pre-trib rapture are the verses referring to Christ’s second coming being visible by all (as you referred to in your original post.) This is when Christ comes fulfilling His role as the Lion of Judah; this is when He comes in power and Glory. This is when His wrath pours out and justice is done. This is the Lord the world will fear. According to the pre-trib interpretation, this is not the Rapture; this is the Second Coming.According to the pre-trib belief, Jesus (still in His role as the Lamb of God) will rapture away the believers “as a thief in the night” before His Second Coming. Then, when we are gone, the lost world is united by the Antichrist.If you want to effectively debate your belief against a “pre-tribber”, you will have to do it in such away that you are not connecting the rapture with the Second Coming. Pre-tribbers do not view the rapture to be the same thing as the post-wrath resurrection of the dead, where every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

You are right, I am not a teacher of biblical doctrine; but in addition to being a movie producer, author and inventor, I am an evangelist. I do not want to teach anyone falsely. The pre-trib interpretation is the one I am most comfortable with according to my understanding of the bible, but my focus has been apologetics. I am not a master of the rapture/tribulation/Second Coming subject and would not be the right one to debate the issue. I am an open-minded seeker of truth and knowledge; if you can build a case against the rapture, without claiming it to be same as the post-wrath resurrection, I would be open to investigating this further.

Hypothetically speaking, in the event of a pre-trib rapture, and the spin on it in the news was that a massive alien abduction, or secret weapon had caused the vanishing, don’t you think video footage of the rapture being circulated in the underground church would be helpful? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Cody,Pretribulationalism is false and misleading. It is a position with no scriptural basis, but instead birthed out of conjecture and pre-supposition. Its promises certainly tickle the ears of many, who have not searched out the scriptures for themselves. They have accepted it blindly without question. I know, because, I was one of them for almost 20 years. Until, I decided to investigate the evidence for myself. My main conclusion was that the scriptures don't teach a Pre-Tribulational Rapture. I extend a friendly challenge. Set aside what you have been taught by man. And then, allow the Holy Spirit to show you all truth. Be a Berean. You owe it to yourself and others.

I’m glad you didn’t take my mention of your invention too personally. And yes, IF there was a pre-trib rapture I cannot imagine why your idea would not be a good one. IF I cannot persuade you from your pre-trib belief, and if you ever make a movie, I think your idea would work as a great subplot within the movie as well. But please notice my “ifs.” :o) But I’m not really sure how it would serve a practical purpose in real life IF there was a pre-trib rapture. According to pre-trib Christ will come invisibly and then, poof, in a twinkling of an eye all Christians will just disappear. I guess I don’t understand why a video camera would see anything that the naked eye would not considering Christ is invisible and we just disappear. I may not be understand what you’re trying to document, though.

I noticed a couple of statements within your comment that I wanted to address. You said:

“Pre-tribbers do not view the rapture to be the same thing as the post-wrath resurrection of the dead.”

And neither do we! The pre-wrath position also views a space in between Christ’s coming to gather us and the time when He comes to destroy the armies at Armageddon and resurrect those mentioned in Rev 20. We view the coming of Christ as an event that encompasses all occurrences in between the gathering of the bride and Christ’s descent to the earth via Armageddon. “Coming” = Parousia in Greek. Parousia is a noun, as in an event, not a verb as one would describe the action of Jesus coming from one place to another. In Christ’s life on earth He lived, taught, healed, died, rose, etc, and all was His first coming. His second coming is similar. He will come sometime after the sixth seal is opened, gather the saints (rapture-dead and alive in Christ), and then pour out His wrath in the trumpet and bowl judgments. Then He will, at the seventh bowl, descend to the battle of Armageddon. ALL of this is His Parousia/coming.

Cody said:

“It seems that the strongest argument against the pre-trib rapture are the verses referring to Christ’s second coming being visible by all.”

Actually, the strongest argument is that there are no verses that speak of Christ coming before the suffering associated with the 70th Week. Not one. There’s not one verse that says He could come at any moment. And there’s not one verse that says that He will be invisible to the world. One of the things pre-trib hinges on is what you kind of mentioned—that some verses seem to say different things about His coming when compared to other verses. The reason pre-trib says that Christ will be invisible to the world is because there are verses that speak of Christ’s coming but do not mention the fact that He will be seen by all. But while there are many verses that teach that the world will see Christ at His coming there’s not a single one that says He will be unseen, ever. But it’s a leap that has been made simply because some verses don’t say He will be seen!

But by this logic, we could really conclude anything about anything. My wife told me she was going to the store to buy some ground burger the other day. The next week she simply told me that she was going to the store. Now, if I were to use the logic pre-trib teachers have used I could boldly claim that my wife was NOT going to buy burger on her second trip simply because she didn’t mention it. But guess what? She bought burger.

But in reality, why should every detail of Christ’s coming be mentioned in every verse? NO doctrine of any substance can be opened and closed based upon one verse, and if NO verses say that Christ will be unseen by the world why would we teach that He is unseen? There are many examples, but I think we should take this one step at a time if you want to continue with questions. I would love to answer them.

I also noticed that you mentioned the rapture being similar to “a thief in the night.” Did you know that this is another odd thing about pre-trib? When pre-trib believers make movies they almost always speak of the rapture as coming at any moment because He will come “like a thief in the night” and that “no one will know the day or the hour.” BUT these verses are found in Matthew 24 where Christ clearly teaches that He will come after the abomination of desolation! Pre-trib teacher know better. A PT teacher that understands the issues will never use those terms to describe the rapture when speaking to a rapture opponent because they know those verses describe His coming in Matt. 24. They then have to find even more obscure verses to try to show that the bible says that He could come at any moment, but again, this any moment teaching is mostly based upon the fact that some verses that speak of His coming don’t mention WHEN He will come. Their logic is then applied and the conclusion is made that He MUST come at any moment because the verse DIDN’T say that He will come after the Antichrist’s persecution!

Anyway, there’s 2 Thess that really hurts pre-trib and a load of other issues that I would love to talk more with you about if you are interested.

So, the events are the same, but the real issue is the time span between the pre-trib and the pre-wrath raptures. One view predicts aprx. 7 years and the other, perhaps a few weeks to a few months. Does pre-wrath predict that Christ will be seen by all as He is rapturing the believers?This is very interesting. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Oh, and the practical application of the invention in a pre-trib senario, is that left behind converts would have a time abd date coded record of a massive vanishing that could prove useful in preserving the truth.Cody

Cody,I'm sure Dave will reply to your comments and questions. But, I would like to sincerely apologize to you if I offended you in any way. I have a warped sense of humor, and also, I am very candid and forthright and sometimes that gets me in hot water. You sound like a great guy and I should have been more selective with my words. God Bless and have a blessed holiday season. In Christ, Raul

Raul,Thank you. There was no offence taken on my part. I just knew that some unsaved people had been invited to read about the invention, and I did not like the way the "Bull fight" was shaping up. I wanted them to see us as we are now... People who disagree while respecting eachother because we are under the Lordship of the one true God, and we follow His example. I think when we work together, the people see Him in us.Cody

Thanks Raul, for apologizing to Cody. I don't necessarily disagree with the things you said, and it's the way I would have said it ten years ago. But over time I realized that I didn't want to just proclaim things in a way that makes the pre-tribber feel as though I thought that they were simple minded robots that simply follow the crowd. I realized that what I said was serving little purpose if it wasn't said in a way that made the listener able to hear.

If I said things like "you are blind, deceived, pre-trib is a lie rooted in Satan, etc" the individual would get mad and I wasn't accomplishing what I wanted to do—help people receive what I believe is the clear truth of scripture.

When I write I try to use the same words I would use if I was speaking face to face with someone I know and love because I want them to listen to everything I have to say. I don't want to prove them wrong, I want to help them see the right.

Granted, there are some that are stuck in their ways and have little chance of changing their mind. When that happens I use what they say to show the contradictions to other readers in hope that they will be able to hear. DBULL for instance, probably will never change his mind, but then again, I've had the thrill of changing the mind of individuals much more studied than him.

It's been a thrill to see a Dallas Seminary graduate/former pastor leave pre-trib due to my book and discussions with him. When he first came up to me he was kind of mad at my stance and wanted to argue about everything. I didn't, though, and just told him that I don't think less of him for being pre-trib. I told him that I was confident that he was wrong but that I liked him just the same. Three months later he walked up to me and with excitement said that he read my book a second and third time and realized that he had been wrong for 20+ years! It was great! I'm pretty sure that he would not have read my book two more times if I had written that pre-tribers are blind and deceived and weren't Bereans.

Anyway, I'm not scolding you, but thought it was a good opportunity to share a little something that might help other readers and posters here feel more accepted and write in a more accepting manner.

I think you understood me when I explained what Parousia means, but when you replied by saying, "So the events are the same," I second guessed my conclusion. Just in case, they are not the same, but both are a part of His coming.

And as for your question, Christ will come to rescue His bride at least 5 months before the end of the 70th Week because Rev. 9:5 informs us that that the 5th trumpet lasts for 5 months. We will be removed before the trumpets considering the fact that they are God's wrath. I'm sure it will be more than 5 months of wrath because I doubt the rest of the trumpets take place in one day, but it's better to be safe and only take what scripture has given us. I don't want to make assumptions.

And yes, Christ will be seen by all when He comes to gather us. There are no verses that say He will be unseen.

Check out why pre-trib teachers say that Christ will be unseen by the world:

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

Do you see anywhere in that passage that even hints that Christ will be unseen by the world? Probably not, but pre-trib teaches that the "twinkling of an eye" mentioned in the passage above proves that Christ will be unseen by the world when He comes for us. But the passage clearly says that "WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED in the twinkling of an eye" when He comes. To apply this to Jesus and Him being invisible is much more than a stretch.

Why change what it says? The verse is very clear and makes perfect sense just as it's read. When we meet Christ in the air (1 Thess. 4:17) our perishable bodies are instantaneously transformed into the imperishable.

At the same time, to prove that Christ will come at any moment and that nothing must take place first they use a verse in Acts.

They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)

How does this prove that Jesus will return at any moment? Because they were not completely expecting Him to rise right then and there as He did. But didn't He have to die before He arose? So His ascension was not imminent.

But why did I bring this verse up? Because just about every verse they use to prove one thing actually ends up contradicting another of their teachings.

They use Acts 1:11 to "prove" that Christ will come back at any moment, but then skip over the verse right before that says that He will be visible when He comes!

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. (Acts 1:9-10)

They were watching Him ascend! Only after they SAW Him ascend did He disappear in the clouds. When confronted with this pre-trib teachers will say, "No, that verse is speaking of His glorious appearing at Armageddon, not the rapture that takes place 7 years prior."

But how can they say that? They just said that verse 11 proves that Christ will come back at any moment at the rapture, but now they say verse 9-10 are His coming at Armageddon when confronted with their mix up!

All the verses are speaking of the same coming. How can 9-10 be one thing while 11 is another when the whole passage is referring to the same thing? But this kind of scriptural dilemma is what every pre-tribber must repeatedly face when deciding to venture into the theory. One must accept the above as good biblical interpretation or they must accept the contradictions and ask more questions and look into more of the issues to decide what is really being taught.

Pre-wrath understand that no verse mentions anything but the fact that all will see Him when He comes. After the sixth seal of the scroll is removed we see the signs (Rev 6:12-14) that are mentioned in Matthew 24 ie. the sun, moon and stars. Matthew informs us that Christ will, at that time, GATHER THE ELECT from one end of the SKY to the other (Matt. 24:31) and that EVERY EYE will see Him (Matt 24:30). Those that witness these same sun, moon and stars signs in Revelation six see Him when the sky recedes like a scroll and they proclaim, "Hide us from the presence of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" Again, He is seen by the world and when Rev 6 is compared with Matthew 24 they can be nothing other than the same event.

Thank you, Dave, this is good information. But before we go further, I'd like to ask anyone who may be following this--- Is there anyone reading this who is unsure that they have home waiting for them in Heaven? Is someone waiting to hear how to be saved from the impending wrath of God that is not too far in the future? Does anyone want to be introduced to a loving God waiting to forgive you of your sins and adopt you as one of his own?Cody

I see two Christian brothers searching the scriptures just like the Bereans who were commended by Paul.

I see a debate being conducted in love, which is how it should be.

It's good to see.

I believe the prewrath view has much more scriptural support than pretrib, and hope Cody sticks around long enough to hear the full defense of the view. Even if Cody doesn't change his mind, he will at least have a better understanding of the scriptural support (or lack thereof) for both views.

Sleepwriter,Point well taken. Depending on when the second coming will be, the antichrist, may already be an adult and holding a political office somewhere. He may have Christian supporters. I think all of us may be shocked to find out who he is. And if pre-wrath is true, a Mid-East peace deal would sure open some eyes! (That is... assuming there would only be one peace deal)

Jeff,I do plan to learn as much as I can. Pre-tib vs, pre-wrath is interesting. I have been pre-trib because that is what I was taught. This is the first credible pre-wrath statement I have heard. In the end, what ever the truth is- that's what I want. But this will take time.

Dave,I may be away tommorow. My wife is having cancer surgery. I don't know if my mind will be in my writing.Cody

Please let us know how your wife's surgery went. I will be remembering you guys in prayer.

I grew up being told pretrib was the correct view. I never studied it for myself. A good friend told me about a book I really needed to read. It's by Marv Rosenthal, "The Pre-wrath Rapture of the Church". The first time I read it through, when I realized he was saying the church was going to go through the tribulation my heart went cold with fear. I finished the book in one day and had to read it again, and I did, only the second time through I had my Bible next to me and was looking up the Scriptures that Rosenthal was quoting. The next time I saw my friend he said, "It's there, isn't it?" I had to agree. I spent the next year looking on the internet and reading whatever books I could get my hands on. I am only confirmed more and more that the prewrath model is the most biblically sound view of the rapture and the second coming of Christ. I would encourage you to search it out, for sure. (Dave is a great teacher.)

Sorry to hear about your wife, Cody. I hope you can come back here a lot, but I understand that what you're going through can be kind of consuming. This subject is much more important than most believers think, but it ain't as important as being there for your wife during her battle!

Kathy, (and Dave)Thank you for your prayers for my wife. I will make it a point to read your testimony and I plan to research the case for pre-wrath in depth at a later time. I am in no hurry to jump from one doctrine to another. Being an unbiased truth seeker, I won’t be able to walk away from the subject until I have dissected ALL rapture views and examined thoroughly ALL data I can get my hands on… I just don’t have time for that kind of search right now.

I am a self taught scientist who would have preferred to be an atheist or agnostic. I was originally taught a shallow form of Christianity, but dumped that way of thinking when I went to college. I quickly chose atheistic evolution, because it was taught from the standpoint of credible evidence (so it was claimed). However, I found so much liberal propaganda, and pseudo science assumptions that were not based in logic or credible evidence that I analyzed the teaching itself and found it to be very bias against God. Further research showed me why…. All real evidence was in favor of a God created universe. This took years of searching. Looking at evidence NOT taught by the state run institutions, I could not hide from God.

Then I wanted to know what god was the real God. I then researched ALL of the beliefs of ALL of the major religions and matched them with all of the historical, geological, astronomical, and biological evidence I could find. The search sent me back to the religion I was trying to run from. I can claim that Jesus Christ is the human manifestation of the God who created the Universe—NOT because someone taught it to me, but because I wore my self out searching. I know that the bible is the Word of God, and I know that because it passed my tests.

To stand firm in an opinion about when the rapture will take place, would take a similar quest. However, I am working 12 hours a day, seven days a week at an aircraft finishing facility. I’m also trying to save the movie that an unethical cameraman ruined. And I’m researching an epic science fiction novel series that I have been writing in my “spare” time. (This is why my website has not been updated in three years.)

Lately, I’ve slowed down to give my wife more time during her illness. That has given me moments at work, while on break to use the internet.

Because I am open to real truth (whatever it is) I am open to both the pre-trib and pre-wrath views until evidence shows me the real thing. I do, however, realize that both views involve the interpretation of prophesies that were written in coded or symbolic language along with straight forward language. This will be a new kind of research for me, since I can’t look to the past history to find the future events. Currently I am comfortable in learning about both views and keeping an open mind.

Dave, when I said this was the most credible statement on pre-wrath, I meant that you have made the most credible argument, or built the most credible case I had heard on the subject. I was just on one of my short breaks at work and used a poor word choice in my rushed typing.And… For the record, I no longer want to be an atheist, or agnostic. That was a personal choice years ago because I wanted to fit in with other scientists, and Hollywood filmmakers. Plus at the time, I was dating as many girls as I could (for the wrong reason) and did not want moral accountability. But, that was then. I am now in love with the God who became a man and laid down His life for me. I found real peace when I laid down my life and my selfish desires for Him and accepted Him as my Lord and Savior. I know that no matter which interpretation (pre-trib or pre-wrath) is true, my future is safe with Him. My faith in Him is unshakable because it is based in unbiased evidence. I still seek truth NOT because I am missing something, but because I am a fan of knowledge and science.

I just wanted you to know where I am coming from. Again, everything you have to say is important to me, I am just not in any hurry. There are no voids in my life.

Sounds great, Cody. Glad you've spent some time here, and I hope to hear from you in the future. And don't go makin' any pre-trib movies before giving me EVERY opportunity to make things VERY clear to you! :)

My wife’s surgery went well and she is at home recovering. Thank you all for your prayers.

I’m now thinking of doing a movie using the rapture recorder, and having alternate endings. It would have a pre-trib and pre-wrath version. There would also be a pre-trib vs. pre-wrath debate in the special features section. I could have credible teachers of both views thoroughly explain their stand point and point out the shortcomings of the other view. I could then leave the outcome up to the viewer to decide.

Dave, if I got funding to do such a project, would you like to be involved as a technical advisor for the pre-wrath ending and also the pre-wrath debater in the special feature?

If a pre-trib teacher reads this and wants to get involved you can email my production company at CandlelightPictures777@gmail.com

If truth seeker reads this and has questions for me about Jesus Christ, you can also email me at the above address. NOTE: I do not have time to play the debate game right now. I will only answer serious questions coming from those interested in truth.

Thank you all for your participation in this discussion. I’ll check back at a later time for additional comments.

Dave, I hope we keep in touch; I think I have found a friend in you.

Kathy, I have not yet read your information, but I will when things slow down a little. Thank you again.Cody

It sounds like something I would consider, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how you could make one movie with two possible endings when it comes to this issue. The pre-trib version would obviously have to continue into the 70th Week to show the effects of the rapture recorder. Then, in order to have a different ending you would have to back up before the pre-trib rapture, erase everything in the movie about the rapture recorder, get rid of the visual effects and claims pertaining to God’s wrath and introduce the Antichrist, giving him plenty of time to persecute the Church so that Christ’s coming would be a climactic event at the pre-wrath rapture. Then, of course, your invention would not be IN the pre-wrath version due to the fact that everyone would have just seen with their own eyes what had taken place! Unless… you included the rapture recorder and I was left behind in the movie and was shown making fun of the invention! I’m thinking the best thing to do would be to study the issue and come to a conclusion before you make a movie, but maybe I’m just old fashioned.

And actually, I have a great subplot in mind that I considered using if I ever wrote a novel on this topic, though I don't think I ever will. IF you ever make a flick, let me know and I'll tell you all about it.

And you could be right. We just might stay in touch. And my wife found it very neat that we've become internet friends considering I began by making fun of you! You’re a forgiving guy.

Movie plot: A scientist, who is an atheist and who has a hobby of investigating paranormal activity from a pagan viewpoint, is married to a Christian woman who became a convert years after they were wed. His two biggest objections to her trying to get him to convert are: he would loose credibility among his peer group, and the only marriage problems that showed up, were after his conversion (He is mad at God for changing his wife into someone who has a life that reminds him he has a sin nature.)

She is battling a disease (maybe cancer) and finally convinces him to attend church as her dying request. He finally begins to listen, but is reluctant to open his mind.

During the course of the film, BIG news events unfold that could be interpreted as either the antichrist coming to power, while the pre-tribbers are awaiting a rapture, or as the built up to the pre-trib rapture. Depending on the movie version, some news cast wording could change.

The wife dies and is buried in a tomb… With the news events unfolding the way they are, the scientist wonders if his paranormal investigation experience can help him be sure of what is happening. He rigs the tomb with a multiplicity of sensors and has it hooked up to a computer.

News events keep unfolding and the man continues to go to church in a world that is becoming outright hostile to Christians, and he wonders why. Even religious and political groups that are diametrically opposed, are united in their hatred of Christianity and are on national TV claiming that Christians are haters.

The scientist has made good contacts in the church, and in his truth search has shared his “rapture recorder” to his friends only to be rejected and made fun of. [ gee, this sounds familiar]

Then after a violent night, where he sees Christians being persecuted for their faith, he is awakened by a noise. We see cut shots of the tomb, where air pressure and temperature sensors are reading micro changes. When he investigates, he discovers the noise is coming from his computer as it boots up. He then rewinds the already recorded footage and watches the video of his wife’s body vanish. He watches it again and at the very moment of the vanishing, he slows the speed on his high tech equipment so as one second equals one hour. The video is too motionless to detect anything, but the other quantum instruments show readings and play sound. He gets a momentary EKG return of thought waves, the sound of a heartbeat, and a background sound that could be a distant trumpet.

He rushes away with the data.

In pre-trib, he uses the data to help stifle the media spin that an alien invasion has taken millions.

In pre-wrath, when he goes outside, he sees events in the sky that let him realize he is too late.That’s a general idea……. Keeping the movie on a smaller scale and filmed indoors, each version could be filled with plot twists. In the pre-wrath version, the delayed rapture has allowed the antichrist to come into power- deceiving the Christians who are waiting to check-out before his arrival. The media reports are more violent and more local Christian persecution is taking place. This smaller scale, indoor approach makes both versions possible, and keeps the cost to a minimum. I did not want to tell this much publicly, but by the time its written it will change so much, it won’t spoil anything anyway.

Those are my thoughts on it. Good night, and have a merry Christmas.Cody

Cody,Could I be in the movie too? Antonio Banderas could play my part. Although, I'm more handsome, but he will do. Just kidding. Cody, you are a good man, I hope you will visit here often and Merry Christmas as well. Raul

Hi Dave, I got your comment. I did not mean to mis-represent the pre-Wrath view; I had actually pulled my information from comments on this blog. It must have gotten changed in an edit by mistake. If you would like to write a short synopsis about the same length that I did that is correct, then I’d be glad to edit what I posted. Another pre-Wrath instructor told me that recorder my be of use to open time capsules in churches and mentioned 144,000 witnesses and talked like there will be people saved after the rapture. Are you two on the same page?

And, yes, things went well for my wife – than you. She is recovering, growing her hair back and is almost as strong as she ever was.

BTW: you mentioned a stat counter on your blog; I have the same blog set up. How do I check it?