SadisticCynic wrote:I see where you're coming from now Demerzel. Feyd's view on the Fremen jihad would've been quite fascinating.

JustSomeGuy - I wuold've liked to have seen more of Duncan personally. It is said that his popularity is what prompted FH to bring him back in DM, but I've always felt there wasn't enough of him to make him a favourite.

I've thought about what would happen had Feyd been the one on Arrakis instead of Paul. He might have led the jihad (assuming he could pass muster as a lisan al-gaib, of which I'm skeptical), and I expect he would have been thrilled to be 'in charge' of such a powerful force. As was the case on Giedi Prime when he thought he was in control but really was Thufir's puppet, he would have been quite mistaken about who was really in control of the jihad. Paul knew he wasn't in charge, that the armies controlled the real power; Feyd wouldn't have had a clue. He would have been a toy of the jihad and finally ended badly.

I also feel Duncan was a bit short-changed in Dune. I don't actually care about having more of him in the book 'because he's a cool character', but rather I think it's important to get a sense of Paul's teachers to know what made Paul who he was. We get a good enough look at Paul's weapons master in Gurney so we don't need Duncan to double-up in that category. What I would have liked was just a small scene demonstrating "Duncan the Moral", which even in Dune he is alluded to as being. This very trait is why Leto II chooses him so I wouldn't have minded seeing this trait exhibited in a sober state, other than in an out-of-scene self-sacrifice.

As for the rest I thought we got to know exactly what we needed to know of the Baron (a glutton; for power, food, sexual satisfaction, domination) and of Feyd (a perfect specimen and due to his upbringing, a perfect fool, showing that genes are not everything). For Farad'n I'd say that his choosing to side with the Atreides in the end was more of a statement of his character than would have been a dozen scenes showing his various talents. Choosing the wise course is more of an achievement than some arbitrary level of skill in battle or strategy. I'm fine with how much of him we got.

In speaking of Duncan, since his scenes were limited, it is surprising that some fans liked him so much that Frank revived him. I know that he was Paul's favorite teacher, but couldn't they give the poor man a rest? The last Duncan Idaho ghola is a eight-year old with the memories of his dead past selves, and everybody from the Honored Matres, the Bene Gesserit, and the Tleilaxu want his genetic material for something they've got planned. That's too much for someone like him to bear. If there was a character I would want to revive, it's Gurney.

Earlier in the comments, I noticed the complaint that Paul was overpowered in his fight with Feyd. Not quite. If he were, he would blast Feyd in two seconds with Goku's Kaio-ken times four... Strangely, I don't recall Paul using the Weirding Way against Feyd: I thought that Paul was restraining himself just to fight Feyd fairly. Either way, Feyd was more skilled than Paul had anticipated, and Paul couldn't kill him easily. Paul was used to fighting soldiers who wwere brute force but no brains. Feyd was different, in that he was the only Harkonnen who knew how to fight properly, and also because he learned well from Thufir's lessons. He wasn't too clever, because he cut himself with the Emperor's own poisoned blade, but he still gave Paul a hard time. The fight was important, because Paul wanted to kill a Harkonnen, since he was denied the opportunity to kill Rabaan and Vladmir himself. It was also a means for Paul to prove himself in combat, since others would assume that the Fremen were doing all the fighting for him.

As for the Corrinos in Children of Dune, I confess that I wish Leto II had the chance to kick their butts other than the butt of poor Aunt Alia. I understand that the Atreides are their own worst enemy, but I still think that they deserve some really good villains to make their struggles even more difficult.

Daniel and Marty from Chapterhouse: Dune might be the closest thing to the kind of villains I would expect. If only they had the chance to be properly developed.

'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Daniel and Marty from Chapterhouse: Dune might be the closest thing to the kind of villains I would expect. If only they had the chance to be properly developed.

Although M&D were trying to intercept the no-ship and do something unknown with the crew, it doesn't follow from this that they were necessarily villains, or even malevolent. My best guess is that they were not going to be some kind of 'arch-nemesis' as ended up being the case in certain fanfic Dune 7 books.

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Daniel and Marty from Chapterhouse: Dune might be the closest thing to the kind of villains I would expect. If only they had the chance to be properly developed.

Although M&D were trying to intercept the no-ship and do something unknown with the crew, it doesn't follow from this that they were necessarily villains, or even malevolent. My best guess is that they were not going to be some kind of 'arch-nemesis' as ended up being the case in certain fanfic Dune 7 books.

True, but they were still freaky. They were more advanced than the usual Face Dancers, that's for certain. I hesitate to read what they ended up becoming in the "sequels," since I want to believe that they represent something more than a link to KJA&BH's version of the thinking machines. In a way, their mystery is similar to mystery of the G-Man in Half-Life: mysterious characters suggesting something greater is going on.

'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I hesitate to read what they ended up becoming in the "sequels," since I want to believe that they represent something more than a link to KJA&BH's version of the thinking machines. In a way, their mystery is similar to mystery of the G-Man in Half-Life: mysterious characters suggesting something greater is going on.

Think of the most obnoxiously wrong thing they could be and double it.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I hesitate to read what they ended up becoming in the "sequels," since I want to believe that they represent something more than a link to KJA&BH's version of the thinking machines. In a way, their mystery is similar to mystery of the G-Man in Half-Life: mysterious characters suggesting something greater is going on.

Think of the most obnoxiously wrong thing they could be and double it.

'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

Regarding Feyd - I thought that putting him at the end of the book just to get him killed was just to satisfy readers when the book was still published in magazines. People would get pissed if the main "villains" of the Atreides clan would be killed in such lame ways. Vlad killed by a little child and Glossu was killed off-screen just like a lame character he was. Compared to those two Feyd was given as much as he ever could have. Gurney would just shoot him without any elaboration - a hardened mercenary whom sister was raped by Glossu (haha - prequels) would not fight him fair. Feyd was also the only character that could possibly win in a duel against Paul in a fair fight - aside from Hasmir. So I suppose FB gave readers the fairest boss fight he could.

And even if Feyd would kill Paul what would it actually change? Shaddam and his cronies would be killed on sight by the fedaykin, fremen jihad would spill on the empire and monopoly on the spice and its destruction will be still on naibs side. Paul would become instant martyr and I dont see what Shaddam could see in getting out of this situation pushing Feyd to fight in his name or even Fenring for that matter.

MuaB'Beep wrote:And even if Feyd would kill Paul what would it actually change? Shaddam and his cronies would be killed on sight by the fedaykin, fremen jihad would spill on the empire and monopoly on the spice and its destruction will be still on naibs side. Paul would become instant martyr and I dont see what Shaddam could see in getting out of this situation pushing Feyd to fight in his name or even Fenring for that matter.

You forget, the Fremen have a powerful tradition of trial by combat. I don't think Feyd could lead the Fremen anymore than Jamis could lead Sietch Tabr, but it might've stopped them for a while. The Jihad would still be inevitable, but Shaddam had no way of knowing that.

Yes, the implication in Dune is that the entire empire is itching to have a jihad. There were no doubt many planets just like Arrakis with a rebellious population, and those people are the ones who joined the jihad after it began. If some other planet has started it the Fremen might well have joined them.

As it happens, though, once Jessica declined to have a daughter Feyd's potential to take the throne was mostly gone. The Baron's new plan was just to have Feyd take control of Arrakis and to maximize spice production there. Vladimir indicates that his primary plan was simply to accumulate so much wealth that...I'm not even sure, maybe he thought he could buy Kaitain. He hoped for Shaddam to falsely accuse him but that only had the potential to be a defensive posture; he couldn't further that path himself. All we know is that the Baron needed to legitimize his House and to somehow acquire noble status before Feyd could ever take the throne. Feyd's only real chance may have been the Fremen after all.

I agree, but how could the Baron swing this? The only reason Shaddam was denied a male heir was to marry his daughter to the KH and have 'a BG take the throne.' With that option apparently gone why would Shaddam ever take Feyd as his son, and why would the BG push him to do so? Mating Feyd with Irulan would achieve little, geneologically, that couldn't be done by just harvesting his DNA as Margot did.

Maybe the Baron would become so rich that Shaddam would fear him and allow Feyd to marry Irulan? Since that would amount to giving away the Corrino dynasty, and to a non-noble house (both being unacceptable points), I question whether this alone would be sufficient motivation. Shaddam was still well under 100, and although he might not expect to live to 300 like they could 5,000 years later, I still assume he had plenty of time to sire an heir if the BG would permit it. If the whole KH thing fell through I'm guessing the BG would have made use of the vacancy of a male heir in some other way, but I don't see why they'd give that opportunity away just to make Feyd Emperor.

Yeah, he's such an exciting character that I'm always left wondering what plans he had in mind other than the immediate one we saw for Arrakis. Maybe he doesn't even have one and is just playing it by ear. It would kind of make sense if the fat Baron's master plan was just to accumulate more and more - and eventually win! I laugh every time when Thufir calls him a clod, and even Fenring appeared to be giving him too much credit in his plans for Arrakis as a prison.

Fenring? Haha! I had fun a few weeks ago taking his conversation with the Baron in the cone of silence and inspecting it line by line. It was amusing to find that each and every comment he makes has at minimum a double meaning, sometimes three. In the scenes before and after it it's especially funny to me how he conducts private conversations with Margot, even in the middle of sentences spoken to the Baron. The amount of disrespect he shows the Baron is amazing.