Hey I know... let's nerf all the tests in schools aswell. My little daughter of 12 cannot go to college because well... she cba with actually studying. She wants to have a laugh and play with her friends. So because of this I want her to go to college (or anything that comes before going to university)... But well... schools have these tests and she is either too stupid or truly can't be arsed... I pay taxes and extras so my little girl can get there aswell. I mean people like that are the vast majority of people in the world... so by those standards...

Hey I know... let's nerf all the tests in schools aswell. My little daughter of 12 cannot go to college because well... she cba with actually studying. She wants to have a laugh and play with her friends. So because of this I want her to go to college (or anything that comes before going to university)... But well... schools have these tests and she is either too stupid or truly can't be arsed... I pay taxes and extras so my little girl can get there aswell. I mean people like that are the vast majority of people in the world... so by those standards...

You are right - schools arbitarily stop people from doing things they are perfectly capable of doing based on whimsical criteria.

You can also look at it that you pay the school to educate the kids and if the kids fail it's actually the school that is failing. kKd not interested? Schools fault. Kid can't learn? Schools fault. ANd obviously so.

You are right - schools arbitarily stop people from doing things they are perfectly capable of doing based on whimsical criteria.

You can also look at it that you pay the school to educate the kids and if the kids fail it's actually the school that is failing. kKd not interested? Schools fault. Kid can't learn? Schools fault. ANd obviously so.

Not really on topic, however.

haha actually it is quite on topic. And yes what do we see in this thread? People blaming blizzard for their own inability to raid properly.

Oh actually you are right it is not on topic. Where are all the raiders is the topic.

Why would you think it's anyone elses fault but blizzards? They have complete control over the game environment. Same wtih the schools.

The other problem with the school analogy is that schools presumably are training people to function in the outside world. A game has no such goal. The purpose of a game is to make the players happy so they send the company money. Period.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

Why would you think it's anyone elses fault but blizzards? They have complete control over the game environment. Same wtih the schools.

Will all due respect to you or anyone. This is (as you pointed out) not on topic. So this is the last time I will respond to my own hijack of the thread.

So you are a parent (or think that is the correct way to parent) who would be angry at a teacher or school because your child has a C/D/F on his/her rapportcard? Are you shitting me? Slap some willpower into your kid if you think your kid could/should do better. Now I am not saying I would SLAP my kid - I am just saying slap to get my point across.

Will all due respect to you or anyone. This is (as you pointed out) not on topic. So this is the last time I will respond to my own hijack of the thread.

So you are a parent (or think that is the correct way to parent) who would be angry at a teacher or school because your child has a C/D/F on his/her rapportcard? Are you shitting me? Slap some willpower into your kid if you think your kid could/should do better. Now I am not saying I would SLAP my kid - I am just saying slap to get my point across.

Yes, of course I would.

it's a teachers job to make what they do attractive. They are the professionals. (One of my parents and one other family member are teachers btw.) if the kid is bored, it's the teachers fault. if the kid doesn't want to be there, again it's the teachers fault. If they find the subject boring, again teachers fault.

Trained adults versus children? Shouldn't be a contest. if it is, someone sucks ass, and it's not the kids.

to make it thread relevent - if blizzard can't make raiding attractive to the playerbase, it's not the playerbases fault. How could it be? it's not my job to work hard to make wow fun, it's wows job to entertain me.

Glorious Leader mate... take a chill pill concerning this topic mate. It seems that you get more and more frustrated everyday in this topic. We all can't help the fact that you couldn't properly heal Tortos. And I am not even saying that is your fault. There are numbers of reasons why this might be.

example:
1. yes ok, your skill - but since you were kind enough to let us know that you never ever had this same experience - I'll call this one false
2. your guildies suck - could be I haven't heard any evidence to the contrary. However me stating this doesn't make it true, I don't know your guildies
3. the encounter is not friendly to paladins - this I can sorta say is true. I am a holy paladin. I find it "frustrating" to not be able to run and heal at the same time. And thus this encounter sucks for me. Still I feel I got this fight under control. But I have only LFR experience on this one. So it is def. not the same.
4. the fight is badly tuned. This could be the case. Still I believe that this fight is pretty good under the assumption that not every class is perfect for every fight. I'd say druids might have a blast healing this fight. Is that bad? No not as long as people can down this fight. And not everyone is meant to down everything. But I don't have the numbers to prove if this fight is badly tuned or not. Time will tell.

I am with you on a lot of points in your previous posts. But I do not agree or want normal to be like Cata/WOTLK normal -where bosses could be oneshotted. I have had my fairshare of those bosses and that utterly sucks. Sure we all laugh and say "haha we're good!" While we just as well have said: "geez could Blizzard not have done a better job at making this atleast challenging?"

What I do like is where LFR is going now. The fights there are from my pov better/more challenging. I am not saying they are difficult. But atleast you can wipe inthere and sometimes more then once.

My advice to you and your guild (based on your posts): Go back farming/defeating content you haven't killed yet and then come back. Perhaps by that time the fights have been tuned more to your liking and you and your guild can have a sense of accomplishment that you completed an instance. And I don't mean this condensending (spelling?) either. I think this would be the best advice as long as the fights are - from what you tell me - too hard.

1. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Dhcp/simple Couple of heroic firelands achieves when it was current (including bethliac) raided the rest on normal and have been raiding on various other tunes at various other difficulties for years. NEVER I repeat NEVER had a problem with normal raids. I have heroic ToES (have the helm to but it doesn't track for some reason)
2. You can look through my guild. Some are server first actually. Got a death's demise enchance shaman. We are in almost universal agreement. Normals are the new heroics. Some of them are actually happy about this change. Others not so much.
3. The encounter is indeed not friendly to holy paladins and megara is only slightly better. The same problem that afflicts tortos afflicts megara by the 5th or 6th head. Constant running around, avoiding everything on the fucking field as an obstacle course and almost NEVER any time to hard cast a spell.
4. Tortos is not only badly tuned, it's mechanically overwhelming. I would suspect that the nerfs to previous bosses would suggest that the raid is poorly tuned (and in my opinion ill conceived mechanic wise) but I don't think you take that as evidence anyway. It's a couple things that make the fights unfun. If I avoid dmg from a boss mechanic I don't understand why I should still be taking dmg from it. Nobody actually get's hit by rock slide in the raid but guess what everyone takes dmg from rock slide, the same applies to megaras green explosion thing. The game is visually overwhelming now. Constant shit on the ground, sometimes it becomes very hard to see what you can and can't dodge (even though I still manage for the most part it is a strain). Finally the raids are just to busy. Seriously. Theirs just to much shit going on. Everything feels just complicated for the sake of complicated. They can't just through a couple of mechanics at you that you can master they have to punish you by constantly adding more and more. It's frustrating because it makes my job so much harder and I liked my job. Healing is fun. Well healing used to be fun. It isn't fun in ToT and I'm thinking about trying another roll or maybe quitting raiding altogether. I don't know I like my guild.

Look no offense you've only raided LFR apparently but you somehow have the temerity and the nerve to tell me that it's not the raids fault? You must be joking. Step into normals, get your ass handed to and then come back and tell me otherwise. My guild doesn't need your advice, were doing fine without it. We've been able to manage a steady boss a week but it hasn't been fun and we dread the future raids. Were not fucking cowards or pussies so we still get up and do it and we like each others company enough that even THIS raid as shitty as it is we still manage to get along well. We don't need to kill old bosses, we need BLizzard to design better new bosses. My suspicion is that once they start to recieve more "data" you'll see nerfs to the later fights as well.

Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-12 at 01:55 PM.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

1. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Dhcp/simple Couple of heroic firelands achieves when it was current (including bethliac) raided the rest on normal and have been raiding on various other tunes at various other difficulties for years. NEVER I repeat NEVER had a problem with normal raids. I have heroic ToES (have the helm to but it doesn't track for some reason)
2. You can look through my guild. Some are server first actually. Got a death's demise enchance shaman. We are in almost universal agreement. Normals are the new heroics. Some of them are actually happy about this change. Others not so much.
3. The encounter is indeed not friendly to holy paladins and megara is only slightly better. The same problem that afflicts tortos afflicts megara by the 5th or 6th head. Constant running around, avoiding everything on the fucking field as an obstacle course and almost NEVER any time to hard cast a spell.
4. Tortos is not only badly tuned, it's mechanically overwhelming. I would suspect that the nerfs to previous bosses would suggest that the raid is poorly tuned (and in my opinion ill conceived mechanic wise) but I don't think you take that as evidence anyway. It's a couple things that make the fights unfun. If I avoid dmg from a boss mechanic I don't understand why I should still be taking dmg from it. Nobody actually get's hit by rock slide in the raid but guess what everyone takes dmg from rock slide, the same applies to megaras green explosion thing. The game is visually overwhelming now. Constant shit on the ground, sometimes it becomes very hard to see what you can and can't dodge (even though I still manage for the most part it is a strain). Finally the raids are just to busy. Seriously. Theirs just to much shit going on. Everything feels just complicated for the sake of complicated. They can't just through a couple of mechanics at you that you can master they have to punish you by constantly adding more and more. It's frustrating because it makes my job so much harder and I liked my job. Healing is fun. Well healing used to be fun. It isn't fun in ToT and I'm thinking about trying another roll or maybe quitting raiding altogether. I don't know I like my guild.

Look no offense you've only raided LFR apparently but you somehow have the temerity and the nerve to tell me that it's not the raids fault? You must be joking. Step into normals, get your ass handed to and then come back and tell me otherwise. My guild doesn't need your advice, were doing fine without it. We've been able to manage a steady boss a week but it hasn't been fun and we dread the future raids. Were not fucking cowards or pussies so we still get up and do it and we like each others company enough that even THIS raid as shitty as it is we still manage to get along well. We don't need to kill old bosses, we need BLizzard to design better new bosses. My suspicion is that once they start to recieve more "data" you'll see nerfs to the later fights as well.

Lol dude, If anything I was trying to get on your page by explaining a few things and give sound advice. Instead you attack me - while I was trying to reach out to you.

Just because I haven't done "normal ToT part II" automatically says that I am not allowed to give my opinion on the fact that you feel this fight is bonkers? I didn't even say that you suck, I explained what might have been reasons. Other people seem to pass this "trial". But not everyone does as it always was. And yes it is sound advice that if you don't care about progress (which I think I remember you said), you wouldn't feel bad to just stick with what is current to you instead of just going unprepared into ToT feeling entitled to down everything just like it was Cata/WOTLK. The fact that I have done pretty much everything on heroic and cleared every content except 50% of naxx and not have killed C'thun when it was current suddenly makes my opinion invalid because of one raid?

Are you shitting me?

And if they apply nerfs, it doesn't mean that you are right - it was just that time to apply nerfs as they usually do since Cata. To let the less fortunate raiders get a chance to raid the content they were before unfit to do so (and unfit can be a broad meaning so do not flip over that word).

So again calm the fuck down and have a sensible discussion. I am not your enemy, but I am trying to look at it from every angle and not just assume that everything you do is perfect and therefor cannot be blamed other then Blizzard. I am no Blizzard fanboy by any means. And I did already say that the fights in normal are harder (due to LFR being for Pugs etc etc, Í am sure you've read my posts) - so take my advice or don't - but to me the choice you have AT THE MOMENT - is simple. You go back to where you left in 5.1. And pray Blizzard nerfs the content so you can savely go into 5.2 etc.

Lol dude, If anything I was trying to get on your page by explaining a few things and give sound advice. Instead you attack me - while I was trying to reach out to you.

Just because I haven't done "normal ToT part II" automatically says that I am not allowed to give my opinion on the fact that you feel this fight is bonkers? I didn't even say that you suck, I explained what might have been reasons. Other people seem to pass this "trial". But not everyone does as it always was. And yes it is sound advice that if you don't care about progress (which I think I remember you said), you wouldn't feel bad to just stick with what is current to you instead of just going unprepared into ToT feeling entitled to down everything just like it was Cata/WOTLK. The fact that I have done pretty much everything on heroic and cleared every content except 50% of naxx and not have killed C'thun when it was current suddenly makes my opinion invalid because of one raid?

Are you shitting me?

And if they apply nerfs, it doesn't mean that you are right - it was just that time to apply nerfs as they usually do since Cata. To let the less fortunate raiders get a chance to raid the content they were before unfit to do so (and unfit can be a broad meaning so do not flip over that word).

So again calm the fuck down and have a sensible discussion. I am not your enemy, but I am trying to look at it from every angle and not just assume that everything you do is perfect and therefor cannot be blamed other then Blizzard. I am no Blizzard fanboy by any means. And I did already say that the fights in normal are harder (due to LFR being for Pugs etc etc, Í am sure you've read my posts) - so take my advice or don't - but to me the choice you have AT THE MOMENT - is simple. You go back to where you left in 5.1. And pray Blizzard nerfs the content so you can savely go into 5.2 etc.

Why in gods name would I take the sound advice from someone who hasn't even sampled the content were talking about? I don't care about your previous experience because normal ToT BLOWS ALL OF THEM OUT OF THE WATER in terms of sheer difficulty. We have folks in that guild who were doing sunwell when it as current and this tier blows the piss out of that. Nothing in my own experience compares to ToT it really is paradigm shifting. Normals are now heroics on crack. I can't imagine what heroics are like.

Your opinion as far as this current tier is concerned is completely invalid. Other people seem to pass the trial and I'm sure this guild will to and maybe even I will. It doesn't make it fun, it doesn't mean we can take many of our friends with us who were able to raid normals in the past and it doesn't mean this entire experience isn't frustrating. I don't assume everything I do is perfect, I leave that to heroic raiders. I ASSUME THAT NORMAL RAIDS allow me enough leeway that not everything I do has to be perfect. That's they key. Hell even when I do something like dodge rockfalls I STILL GET HIT WITH DAMAGE. Going back to 5.1 won't solve that. Going back to 5.0 won't solve that. Going back to clear raids we already cleared won 't solve a damn thing. Why in gods name should I wait for them to get their tuning act together? When you understand that people shouldn't youll understand where all the raiders have gone.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Alright my opinion doesn't matter. Still I think you make an error by not just complaining about current content being out of your league (in the way you want to raid) - instead of just going back to former content that you didn't complete. Like I said: I couldn't dream to just go to SSC if I hadn't cleared and geared in Karazhan. And from SSC en TK you could go to Mount Hyjal and Black Temple etc - you had to do those otherwise you'd fail miserably. I am not talking about atunements here so please do not come at me with those. I am strictly talking gear. In TBC and Vanilla aswell basically everything was gated behind gear (and attunements) progress. So if you feel you cannot hack it right now - go back and do content that is designed to be current for you. Once you have completed that I am sure you'll be having a lot more fun in the content that is there right now.

But I am probably talking out of my arse here since I have never been in ToT part II normal. And to come back on topic: This "normal difficulty being too high" might be a part of what is happening to the raiders dissapearing. But I think the biggest reason is just they don't want to commit anylonger to guildraidtimes etc. They wanna raid whenever they feel like it. That is the biggest reason. You can complain all you want on how difficult it is, but from what I have witnessed (and that is subjective as it is my experience alone) - raiders don't just raid for fun - they raid for progress. Be it normal or heroic. A sense of accomplishment. And if you just raid for the hell of it, I don't expect anyone to make it in normal either. Because thats what LFR is for. If you're that casual you should be in the league that is for you. And I already explained why normal is more difficult now - and I understand you want to go back oneshotting normal bosses. Well I guess we're a long way off from that situation at the moment. So again: either man up and bash your head in (which you hate doing), go back a tier and raid/complete that first/or stop raiding (go LFR).

Easy right? You can be mad about that and I understand that perfectly - but those are your choices.

Alright my opinion doesn't matter. Still I think you make an error by not just complaining about current content being out of your league (in the way you want to raid) - instead of just going back to former content that you didn't complete. Like I said: I couldn't dream to just go to SSC if I hadn't cleared and geared in Karazhan. And from SSC en TK you could go to Mount Hyjal and Black Temple etc - you had to do those otherwise you'd fail miserably. I am not talking about atunements here so please do not come at me with those. I am strictly talking gear. In TBC and Vanilla aswell basically everything was gated behind gear (and attunements) progress. So if you feel you cannot hack it right now - go back and do content that is designed to be current for you. Once you have completed that I am sure you'll be having a lot more fun in the content that is there right now.

But I am probably talking out of my arse here since I have never been in ToT part II normal. And to come back on topic: This "normal difficulty being too high" might be a part of what is happening to the raiders dissapearing. But I think the biggest reason is just they don't want to commit anylonger to guildraidtimes etc. They wanna raid whenever they feel like it. That is the biggest reason. You can complain all you want on how difficult it is, but from what I have witnessed (and that is subjective as it is my experience alone) - raiders don't just raid for fun - they raid for progress. Be it normal or heroic. A sense of accomplishment. And if you just raid for the hell of it, I don't expect anyone to make it in normal either. Because thats what LFR is for. If you're that casual you should be in the league that is for you. And I already explained why normal is more difficult now - and I understand you want to go back oneshotting normal bosses. Well I guess we're a long way off from that situation at the moment. So again: either man up and bash your head in (which you hate doing), go back a tier and raid/complete that first/or stop raiding (go LFR).

Easy right? You can be mad about that and I understand that perfectly - but those are your choices.

This guild has completed it. I haven't completed every boss but are you seriously suggesting that 9 other people waste and fritter away their time on bosses they've already got on farm for the sake of ONE PERSONS ACHIEVEMENT SCORE? What's the point? I can gte the gear from lfr and from the first couple of bosses we have downed. It isn't an GEAR issue, it never has been, well except for maybe Horridon and they finally got around to fixing that fight. It's an overload of mechanic issue.

Like I'm sorry "content that's designed to be current for me"? In the past that was normal content that was released it's not. Why in gods fucking name should I go back and clear content we've already cleared just because the current raid is to fucking hard.

You are exactly talking out your ass here and I'm not sure why I should take you seriously. Is their never a fucking middle ground with you people? WE DIDN'T ONE SHOT BOSSES IN WOTLK OR CATA EITHER on normal or on heroic. The difference was that those normal tiers felt like normal. They didn't make me rip my fucking hair out. They didn't constantly have me running obstacle courses, paying more attention shit out the ground then healing. They let me AVOID dmg instead of simple just taking dmg even when you avoid the ability. Your telling me to man up? You've got to be fucking kidding me. You know the man up thing to do? GO play another fucking game, stop giving the developers my hard earned money and go accomplish something else.

Honestly I asn't pissed off before but reading your nonsense has incensed me. I have an idea. Act like a fucking man please and stop posting when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Educate yourself.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Of those 700k guilds, only 40k killled Stone Guards normal, the rest dont raid and are therefore irelevant for the discussion.

13k killed empress before 5.2. 18k killed empress as for today. Around 50% more, means a lot of people was trying to kill the bosses and were failing, and the fact that only 13k guilds have killed was not due to people not trying. The nerf was needed a long time ago (it was needed when it was current).

Now, if you want to take the 660k guilds that dont even try to do the content because you have no real arguments, then i feel sorry for you.

I've highlighted something very important in this discussion for you.

"THE REST DONT RAID".

You've made a very large mistake as dismissing these guilds and put them into the category of "Dont want to raid", which is wrong.

There is a reason these guilds dont raid. Its not to do with raid difficulty, its because a portion of them CANT RAID. This is due to logistics, either raiders cant turn up on time consistently, or they are leaderless.

What you need to do, is find out how many players raid in LFR. This my friend, is the true number of players that DO actually want to raid.

Youve made a large mistake to assume that the only people who want to raid are the people who are currently raiding normal modes, and based your entire arguement off that premise.

You've made a very large mistake as dismissing these guilds and put them into the category of "Dont want to raid", which is wrong.

There is a reason these guilds dont raid. Its not to do with raid difficulty, its because a portion of them CANT RAID. This is due to logistics, either raiders cant turn up on time consistently, or they are leaderless.

What you need to do, is find out how many players raid in LFR. This my friend, is the true number of players that DO actually want to raid.

Youve made a large mistake to assume that the only people who want to raid are the people who are currently raiding normal modes, and based your entire arguement off that premise.

Out of curiosity does wowprogress also track my bank guild or the alt levelling guild that my dk was in on another realm.

I mean claiming that there is 660k more guilds out there that want to raid but cant. compared to the 40k who have killed something is rather bold.

The people who want to raid normal mode and the people who do LFR are 2 different kind of groups. Those who do LFR, do not automaticly want to raid normal mode
But I will aggre that a lot of people of the LFR people would probably want to raid normal mode but can't because of logistics, time problems, can't find a guild, on a dead realm etc.

Out of curiosity does wowprogress also track my bank guild or the alt levelling guild that my dk was in on another realm.

I mean claiming that there is 660k more guilds out there that want to raid but cant. compared to the 40k who have killed something is rather bold.

The people who want to raid normal mode and the people who do LFR are 2 different kind of groups. Those who do LFR, do not automaticly want to raid normal mode
But I will aggre that a lot of people of the LFR people would probably want to raid normal mode but can't because of logistics, time problems, can't find a guild, on a dead realm etc.

Any guild can be entered into wowprogress.com, by anyone. The site doesn't go out looking for guilds, though, or automatically update them (it used to do this, but now someone has to ask for an update; again, it can be anyone who does that.)

I've been updating old guilds on my server that had progress in T13 or earlier. This added a handful of guilds to the T14 progression list (mostly 1/12 or 2/12 from guilds that had gone casual and were just dabbling with a little normal raiding in the previous tier.)

I don't see where wowprogress lists the number of guilds it tracks. The progression %s are of the guilds that have any progression in the tier, so all the non-raiding guilds are screened out (as are the guilds that wanted to raid, but couldn't down even the first boss, but what can they do.) Anyone could go and ask for your bank guild to be tracked, but it would have to be deliberate.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

But I will aggre that a lot of people of the LFR people would probably want to raid normal mode but can't because of logistics, time problems, can't find a guild, on a dead realm etc.

All barriers to entry. Difficulty is also a barrier to entry. Difficulty is a barrier to entry they can do something about.

The hammer comes down:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

Hey I know... let's nerf all the tests in schools aswell. My little daughter of 12 cannot go to college because well... she cba with actually studying. She wants to have a laugh and play with her friends. So because of this I want her to go to college (or anything that comes before going to university)... But well... schools have these tests and she is either too stupid or truly can't be arsed... I pay taxes and extras so my little girl can get there aswell. I mean people like that are the vast majority of people in the world... so by those standards...

Some people think that the only proper way to raise a child is to make them into a machine designed to get into Princeton/Yale/Harvard, which means no friends, no play time, pretty much just study and practice the first 18 years of existence. You keep them motivated through the fear of disappointing you, and you reinforce this by always telling them how disappointed you are that they are not perfect, that they are not trying hard enough. You have failed as a parent if your child is already 12 years old and has not been taught this every day for the last 10 years. Its just like raiding, it is not some positive affirmation that moves a raider, it is the utter fear of being a failure, it is the shame of standing in the fire.

Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickThe nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. -George Orwell

I played since December 2005, and I quit several months ago as it was obvious that 25 man raiding was dead, and Blizzard wasn't going to do anything to bring it back. I found that WoW just wasn't fun when I wasn't part of a large raiding guild, so I stopped playing. I never liked the expansion theme too, although Pandaria (the continent) was cool.

Sounds very much the same as my story... although i will add that i will come back when Wow is free to play.

Hey I know... let's nerf all the tests in schools aswell. My little daughter of 12 cannot go to college because well... she cba with actually studying. She wants to have a laugh and play with her friends. So because of this I want her to go to college (or anything that comes before going to university)... But well... schools have these tests and she is either too stupid or truly can't be arsed... I pay taxes and extras so my little girl can get there aswell. I mean people like that are the vast majority of people in the world... so by those standards...

First off, it's a game, jesus H. Christ, stop with that.

Second off, they DO "nerf" tests, fairly often, actually! At least in the USA, so people can pass.

You've made a very large mistake as dismissing these guilds and put them into the category of "Dont want to raid", which is wrong.

There is a reason these guilds dont raid. Its not to do with raid difficulty, its because a portion of them CANT RAID. This is due to logistics, either raiders cant turn up on time consistently, or they are leaderless.

What you need to do, is find out how many players raid in LFR. This my friend, is the true number of players that DO actually want to raid.

Youve made a large mistake to assume that the only people who want to raid are the people who are currently raiding normal modes, and based your entire arguement off that premise.

You're making a false assumption that everyone in LFR actualy wants to be there because they want to raid and not because Blizzard put the best PVE rewards outside normal raiding in LFR.

You can't credibly claim to know in an MMO that people do content because they want to when they the best loot in the game is behind that content.

If pet battles had 502 loot, then a great many more people would do pet battles. Would that mean that pet battles are suddenly more fun inherently? No.

No content with better rewards can be compared to any other and be said to be more desirable unless both offer the same rewards for roughly the same time input.

Raiding gives out the best rewards in the game and until something else awards something similar, how much people want to do raiding versus how much they are doing it because Blizzard wants them to can't really be known.