This entire article is ****ing disgusting, the Mail's blatant vendetta against trans people is terrifying (and stems from Trans Media Watch giving evidence against them to the Leveson enquiry ) and it honestly makes me scared to form any sort of relationship or friendship with anyone.

i did wonder what was up with the sudden influx of trans bashing articles..

(Original post by Bellissima)
i think as soon as emily saw that sexually matt was not "all there" things would have stopped pretty quickly.. if matt had then forced emily to have sex with him (not sure how).. then it would have been rape

There are a lot of factual inaccuracies in this thread. No, in fact it would not have been rape, since rape can only be committed with a penis, as defined by section 1(1) of the Sexual Offences act 2003. Furthermore, in order for the impersonation to constitute rape (granted that Matt had a penis) he would have had to impersonate someone known to Emily; this, under section 76(2)(b) of the Act.

As such, this whole thing seems a little specious to me. On what grounds would they prosecute Matt for this instance of deception other than thinly veiled transphobia? He has in fact committed no real crime in simply "pretending" to be a boy, as the Daily Fail puts it. I wonder if they'd make as big an issue of things if someone pretended to be white when they were say Asian, or pretended to be a natural blonde when they were in fact brunette, granted that the other person had a strict preference for these traits. The only real issue here, is the fact that Matt is in fact 16 rather than 14, which puts him at the age of consent, whilst Emily is not, which would make it statutory rape if he'd intended to have sex with her. This much has not been determined. This is a very disturbing article indeed.

(Original post by X_mark_the_spot)
There are a lot of factual inaccuracies in this thread. No, in fact it would not have been rape, since rape can only be committed with a penis, as defined by section 1(1) of the Sexual Offences act 2003. Furthermore, in order for the impersonation to constitute rape (granted that Matt had a penis) he would have had to impersonate someone known to Emily; this, under section 76(2)(b) of the Act.

i didn't know that i thought it was penetration, not necessarily penis... though surely there is some kind of sexual offence if a female manages to rape another female? i swear they do that in prison.. probably unpunished but it means that it can happen.

(Original post by Bellissima)
i didn't know that i thought it was penetration, not necessarily penis... though surely there is some kind of sexual offence if a female manages to rape another female? i swear they do that in prison.. probably unpunished but it means that it can happen.

A woman can't rape anyone in the eyes of the law, they can be charged with a lesser crime which I think is called forced penetration but rape can only be committed by men

(Original post by Bellissima)
i didn't know that i thought it was penetration, not necessarily penis... though surely there is some kind of sexual offence if a female manages to rape another female? i swear they do that in prison.. probably unpunished but it means that it can happen.

Yes, definitely assault by penetration or simply sexual assault. But for now, the White Knights who drafted our current legislation of precluded the possibility of the gentle fair sex being capable of rape . Anyway, it would be a statutory sexual offence if he engaged in "sexual" relations with her, being that she is under 16,and he was aware of this.

I'll likely get negged for this but I do think transgender people should make their birth gender clear from the onset of any relationship. While you may feel that you belong to whichever gender the other persons feelings should also be considered and they should be able to make a choice. I have no problem with transgender (though I don't particularly understand it) but I personally would not want to date someone who was born the same gender and feel I would be quite justifiably pissed off if I was only told this later in the relationship.

(Original post by Logi)
I'll likely get negged for this but I do think transgender people should make their birth gender clear from the onset of any relationship. While you may feel that you belong to whichever gender the other persons feelings should also be considered and they should be able to make a choice. I have no problem with transgender (though I don't particularly understand it) but I personally would not want to date someone who was born the same gender and feel I would be quite justifiably pissed off if I was only told this later in the relationship.

Sorry, but no. If someone's male they're male, cis or trans. It's no business of yours whatsoever that someone may or may not have been assigned a different gender at birth, because it likewise holds no relevance to who someone is today.

(Original post by Logi)
I'll likely get negged for this but I do think transgender people should make their birth gender clear from the onset of any relationship. While you may feel that you belong to whichever gender the other persons feelings should also be considered and they should be able to make a choice. I have no problem with transgender (though I don't particularly understand it) but I personally would not want to date someone who was born the same gender and feel I would be quite justifiably pissed off if I was only told this later in the relationship.

i agree but only if they are pre op, and maybe not from the onset... maybe after a few dates when things become more romantic.. though it must be really hard.

i think if you don't then it can leave the other person feeling angry, hurt and lied to... because you need to face up to the fact that some people will not want to have sex with a female/male body, even if that is upsetting for you, because they are not attracted to it.

(Original post by Logi)
I'll likely get negged for this but I do think transgender people should make their birth gender clear from the onset of any relationship. While you may feel that you belong to whichever gender the other persons feelings should also be considered and they should be able to make a choice. I have no problem with transgender (though I don't particularly understand it) but I personally would not want to date someone who was born the same gender and feel I would be quite justifiably pissed off if I was only told this later in the relationship.

You won't get negged to hell for that TSR is mostly very transphobic. Transphobes aren't in the minority here. Also, 'I have no problem with transgender' is a hilarious statement given that you haven't even bothered finding out that 'transgender' isn't a noun.

A trans person was NOT born with the other gender. A trans man has always been male; a trans woman has always been female. Yes, they weren't assigned that gender at birth, but it's hardly their fault that the medical profession's methods of labelling someone's gender are very flawed.

If you wouldn't want to date someone who wasn't cis, fair enough. Rest assured that many people are the same. But if you wouldn't want to date someone who wasn't cis, then the onus is on you to ask someone if they're trans or not when you enter a relationship, not on them to tell you. It's like if you only wanted to date someone who wanted kids, for example - instead of assuming that the other person would have told you that they didn't want kids if that was the case, you would instead ask if they wanted kids if it was a deal-breaker to you.

(Original post by rockrunride)
Sorry, but no. If someone's male they're male, cis or trans. It's no business of yours whatsoever that someone may or may not have been assigned a different gender at birth, because it likewise holds no relevance to who someone is today.

if you are in an adult romantic relationship, sex is usually quite important.. and the sex of the person you are going to do it with is a deal breaker for a lot of people.. you can't force someone to be attracted to a particular sex.

I think Cloe is disgusting. If it had been a guy pretending to be a girl to get with a lezzer then there would have been massive outcry.

To call this transphobia is a complete joke and avoidance of the fact that this girl pretended to be a boy to dupe someone into something that most people would regard as sexual and signifying sexual intent - a kiss.

(Original post by rockrunride)
Sorry, but no. If someone's male they're male, cis or trans. It's no business of yours whatsoever that someone may or may not have been assigned a different gender at birth, because it likewise holds no relevance to who someone is today.

Er... I'd say it's business of theirs if they are embarking on a relationship with that person.

(Original post by Bellissima)
if you are in an adult romantic relationship, sex is usually quite important.. and the sex of the person you are going to do it with is a deal breaker for a lot of people.. you can't force someone to be attracted to a particular sex.

It would then depend on whether the trans person had had SRS or not, and if so and it was unnoticeable, then I still don't think there's any obligation to say anything.

(Original post by rockrunride)
It would then depend on whether the trans person had had SRS or not, and if so and it was unnoticeable, then I still don't think there's any obligation to say anything.

that is why i said pre op, if they've had SRS then it shouldn't make a difference.. though of course if i were in a long term relationship with someone i would hope they could be honest with me about their past.

(Original post by t0ffee)
I think Cloe is disgusting. If it had been a guy pretending to be a girl to get with a lezzer then there would have been massive outcry.

To call this transphobia is a complete joke and avoidance of the fact that this girl pretended to be a boy to dupe someone into something that most people would regard as sexual and signifying sexual intent - a kiss.

the fact that she's upset etc. isn't transphobia... but the reaction of her parents (which has obviously influenced emily) and also matt's grandmother ("she's a good girl and is behaving herself") is quite transphobic.

(Original post by kerily)
If you wouldn't want to date someone who wasn't cis, fair enough. Rest assured that many people are the same. But if you wouldn't want to date someone who wasn't cis, then the onus is on you to ask someone if they're trans or not when you enter a relationship, not on them to tell you. It's like if you only wanted to date someone who wanted kids, for example - instead of assuming that the other person would have told you that they didn't want kids if that was the case, you would instead ask if they wanted kids if it was a deal-breaker to you.

'Cis' people should make their gender clear along the most commonly accepted lines. Saying that they are 'male' (when if the gender when evaluated by birth gender, as most consider it to be, is female), is the equivalent of a convicted criminal lying to everyone about being a criminal because in his mind and by his definitions, he is not.

Plus the vast majority of people would be exceptionally offended if a prospective partner asked them if they used to be another gender.