I now turn the Giants and the blog back to Baggs until next Sunday. I’ve done enough damage for one weekend, eh?

We’ve had starting pitcher laments galore throughout this season. Many, many superior performances have been wasted due to the Giants’ horrible hitting, and all of the top four starters — Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Madison Bumgarner and Ryan Vogelsong — have been bitten by it more than once. So I don’t know why I felt particularly bad for Vogelsong Sunday considering how many times we’ve seen this China Basin Greek tragedy.

Maybe it’s because in a season where there have been so many frustrating negative turns, Vogelsong is the one positive, feel-good story folks can take away from 2011. The guy is a lock winner of the Willie Mac Award, and beyond his wonderful pitching and miraculous career revival, he’s just a charming, sincere, well-grounded, team-first guy. Like he’s done all year, he took the ball in a game the Giants absolutely had to have and pitched his heart out. He gave them seven studley innings of three-hit, shutout ball, and it looked like it was going to be another shining chapter of his Ripley’s Believe It Or Not saga.

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Then it all short-circuited like a cell phone thrown into a bathtub, through only a little fault of his own. Clinging to a 1-0 lead, the offense and the manager couldn’t get him an insurance run in the bottom of the seventh despite a speedy runner on second and nobody out. Just pitiful. Just pathetic. And then Vogelsong got pulled down into the stinky quagmire along with the rest. With one out in the eighth, he made just one mistake to Ryan Roberts that tied the game. He then gave up a single and was gone, the bullpen blew it out the back end, and for good measure, the Giants went six up, six down to end their do-or-die homestand with a resounding face-plant.

Forget the race. That was pretty much gone before Sunday started. But Vogelsong has an L beside his name today despite the fact that he came up tall when so many others came up small. It just doesn’t seem fair. Long after the details of this latest disaster fade away, that L will still be there. Even in a divisional chase gone south, it would have been nice to take the memory of this game into the winter, with Vogelsong getting the win he so richly deserved in what was perhaps the last meaningful game at AT&T Park this year. It would have completed his marvelous season the way it ought to have been completed.

Oh sure, he’ll make more starts. If he pitches like he did Sunday, and there’s no reason to expect he won’t, he’ll probably add a few more wins to his ledger. But he was the victim of record in the game that we all know was the death knell. While we know better who to blame, he’ll still carry the weight of it. That’s just him. He said as much afterward, when he beat himself up in front of the media for not being able to finish on his seven innings of stalwart brilliance.

Like I said, there have been way, way too many games this year where you truly felt sorry for the Giants starter. But there was something different about this one, and perhaps you felt it, too. You wanted to kick in your television, or if you were at the game, beat up the guy hawking Panda hats. Vogelsong’s story has been too good to saddle with this kind of black mark, and it stung.

The Willie Mac Award will ease the pain of it, of course. But it would have been so much better to get Vogelsong a win in the last significant game of the year. Even if the season hadn’t ended right for the Giants, it could have ended right for Vogey with just a little help. It would have been something to cling to heading into the offseason. Now, even that has an undeserved smudge.

—————-

A lot of people who pipe in on this blog won’t like to hear it, but we’re going to say it anyway — Bruce Bochy is a good manager. He’s managed this team to a World Series title, and somehow he’s held them together in a 2011 hangover season where so many things have gone wrong, most notably the Buster Posey injury that should have ended the season way back in May.

Sunday wasn’t one of Bochy’s finest days, however, particularly in the seventh inning. With an insurance run sitting on second, he chose not to bunt with nobody out to get the runner to third, where you significantly improve the possibilities of scoring — wild pitch, passed ball, balk, slow roller, sac fly, squeeze, error, and last but not least, maybe even a clean hit. Instead, the manager let rookie Brandon Belt, mired in a slump and a strikeout victim his first two times up (albeit after a 16-pitch at-bat on the first K), hit away.

Even Belt said afterward he figured he’d be bunting. But when he didn’t get the sign, he maintained he put too much pressure on himself to hit the ball to the right side, swung at a bad pitch and popped up. Sure enough, Orlando Cabrera followed with a deep fly ball that would have been a sac fly had Belt bunted the guy to third. With Torres as the guy running, you had to like the odds of it being successful, even though Belt probably hasn’t been called on to bunt a whole lot in his career. Bochy said he just felt Belt could make contact and hit a ball to the right side or get a hit. Well, he hit it to the right side, all right, but straight up in the air. Oops.

Then Bochy doubled down on the scorn of many Giants fans by leaving Eli Whiteside in to hit with two out in his last chance to get that run home. Pat Burrell on the bench. Mark DeRosa 0n the bench. Mike Fontenot. Emmanuel Burriss. Bochy explained he believed the Diamondbacks simply would have walked any pinch-hitter he might have sent up there to get to Vogelsong’s spot, where he would have had to pinch-hit for him.

OK, so? Vogelsong had done his job. Even with Brian Wilson on the DL and Sergio Romo on a one-day maternity leave, you still have a deep and capable bullpen and probably needed to take your best shot there. But Whiteside, who was also a strange pinch-hitting call on Saturday night in the ninth inning, strode to the plate and promptly grounded to short.

Bochy further explained he didn’t want to upset the pitcher-catcher rapport that had gotten the Giants through the first seven innings, but that only had one more inning to go at most, and as it turned out, only lasted for three more batters, two of whom got hits.

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I thought that was the whole game right there, and my game story (http://goo.gl/AMYGj) was almost completely devoted to the Giants’ failure to get that insurance run home, which would have changed everything about how the game could be played over the final two frames. It’s not all the manager’s fault, of course. Belt deserves some of the blame for at least not getting the runner over with a ground ball. Cabrera could have gotten a hit instead of just a fly ball, and I suppose Whiteside could have gotten a hit, even though he’s at .189 with runners in scoring position this year and not a soul in the park expected one.

Bottom line, and Bochy admitted as much, you’ve got to get that run home. To be sure, it would have rendered Roberts’ solo home run a lot less damaging and might have saved Vogelsong from the ignominy of that boxscore L.

Should have bunted, and failing that, should have pinch-hit. But hey, it wasn’t going to change the outcome of this season, only prolong the suspense a little while longer. Good managers have bad days, and Bochy had one. It happens. Ask Tony La Russa. Unfortunately, and it just comes with the job, people will have foggy memories about all the good things Bochy’s done and remember this day for awhile. Probably a good thing he’s out of town the next few days. He won’t have to listen to the talk shows.

—————–

22-Skidoo. What now? Seven out, and as I stated last night, you need to go 18-4 if the Diamondbacks play .500 just to tie. And pigs not only fly, they serve peanuts. Not happening, and the sooner the Giants realize it, the better. Time to look at the future. Get Belt and Brandon Crawford in there every day, because they may be everyday guys for real in ’12. Let’s see Brett Pill at first and see what he’s got. Let’s see Hector Sanchez go a round with the full rotation. Give Emmanuel Burriss and Darren Ford a few starts. Tell Barry Zito, Brian Wilson and Jonathan Sanchez to just shut it down, and Pat Burrell, too. Not worth it when there’s so little to play for, particularly in the case of Wilson’s elbow, which clearly needs to just chill for about four months.

There are a lot of people who want to take a smidgen of renewed hope into the offseason after this galling year, and it’s not going to be done by sending guys like Cabrera and Ross out there who won’t be here in 2012. Will it happen in San Diego today? Probably not, but maybe we’ll at least start to see some fresh blood incrementally.

We’ll give it a nudge. Baggs, get in there for Steward. We’ve seen enough of that old veteran hacker.

Carl Steward

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Speaking as a SABR-friendly Giants fan, I can say that I have a million problems with Bruce Bochy the manager. But his unwillingness to call for sac bunts is not one of them. Good for Bochy, and I hope he never changes. Sac bunting with anyone but the pitcher is silly.

The Giants make enough outs on their own. No reason at all to give outs away, too.

Chris

Losing Posey, along with the rest of the other injuries, is all significant.

Unfortunately, we knew Sabean was taking a risk standing pat because of how his team performed over 2 months.

For this offense to be league average, it would of taken another year like 2010 out of Torres, Huff, and Burrell, a fully healthy Sanchez, a full season of Buster Posey, a slim-downed successful Sandoval, and a decent season from Cody Ross.

All that, and still only a league average offense. While you can’t blame Sabean for injuries, there’s plenty else you can blame him for.

If everything didn’t go perfect, even just 80%, this offense was going to be below league average. It seems like everyone forgets that while the Giants offense was bad most of 2010, it rose to the occasion over the last two months (as I said), scoring more frequently, due in part to all of a sudden becoming a home-run crazy ball club.

Posey being healthy, Sanchez being healthy, along with Sandoval not missing 6 weeks wasn’t going to make up for the struggles of the rest of this offense.

I said it before the season, and I’m saying it now. Sabean has his “advanced scouts”, but even I myself could see Torres had a career year, Huff couldn’t possibly be that good again, Ross was overrated by October, Miguel Tejada can barely hit, yet alone play SS anymore.

It was a great story last year that Sabean thought could re-write itself this year. Unfortunately, good stories only go so far.

Bippy

Over? Naw, not yet.

This is the stuff from which legends are made.

How’s it look? Grim.

So what.

Hey, jump off the bandwagon. Football season is here. Go your own way. I’m sticking with the boys. Hope to meet up with you again in the playoffs.

GRMG

Carl, you were 100% on the button with this one. Vogey shoud NOT have been saddled with this loss. I turned the game off when the D-backs scored on the triple, but thought at least he didn’t take the loss. I didn’t realize then that the go-ahead run was his runner. Really ticks me off that our “Fabulous Pen” couldn’t hold it for him.

Too bad it had to end like that…and while I realize the season is NOT quite over, it’s pretty much out of reach with the way the boys have been playing and the brain-lock in the game planning department.

Oh well, still love the boys, and will be waiting to see what next season might bring.

PLAY THE KIDS, Bochy!! You have NOTHING to lose anymore.

Super Aceguy Adolf The Nutcase Chicken Man

Anyone who doesn’t want Bochy as manager has no right to call themselves a Giants fan… Huff has been better than last year in the past, the idea that he couldn’t repeat is retarded…. Torres has been injured all year, and thanks for your efforts, Andres, you got yourself a WS ring, will miss you….Posey’s done… Cody Ross isn’t coming back… Sandoval’s been the genuine comeback player of the year, Vogelsong’s a very average pitcher….Not sure Brandon Belt’s going to make it as an everyday player, but best give him a chance to lose the left field job next year…. where-else is the money going to be saved? Next year has to be a salary dump year, see if they can play .500 ball…. I am the resurrection and I am the light, Miggy Tejeda was not.

jporny

GP is right. Of all the decisions Bochy has made this season, refusing to sac bunt was NOT one of the bad ones.

jporny

Also, Chris is right. Blaming this season’s outcome purely on injuries deflects attention from the fact that Sabean has no idea how to evaluate hitting.

walt kovacs

btw…vogie can hit…he has in the past

he didnt deserve this loss

and bochy played chess, when a checkers game was being played

at season’s end, the giant org should…to a man…apologize to the fans…who have been there, day in and day out…

the players know…they have played on the road to empty stadiums

giants fans deserved better this year

vogie became a fan fav, not just cuz of his story, not just cuz he has pitched beyond the fans and critics expectations…but because of the post game interview he gave

giants fans are so used to overpaid and pampered vets not taking responsibility for their failings, that when a guy goes out of his way to take the weight of the world on his shoulders…when he doesnt have to…you gotta embrace that guy

hope this year isnt a fluke….hope he can keep it going through 2012…cuz there is a guy who deserves to throw in the post season

walt kovacs

GP

if thats true, then why is it, from the time one is a little leaguer…DO YOU PRACTICE BUNTING DRILLS???????

PEOPLE WHO DONT KNOW OR HAVE NEVER PLAYED THE GAME NEED TO STOP WATCHING IT

GP has a point. The job becomes so much easier with a LH hander. Having said all that and inspite of his past 16 pitch at bat, I don’t need Belt in the game anymore to even play first base.

6 out of 10 times I agree with GP but this game was supposed to be played like the 7th or “8th” game of the WS, with our “hair on fire”

I bunt Bumgarner or Burriss in that spot ESPECIALLY since Torres getting to second base was a gift. Yes, Yes “give them an out” – I know but please get Torres running for Huff to third. Please. So they walk Cabrera. You’ve got Pill,Ford, Gelaspie (sic) and Sanchez to swing the wood. Not one of Boch’s best moves in a season of lock-step moves.

1 injuries…overall
2. sabean…standing pat was not a good idea….miggs was a terrible idea
3. the offense…related to 2
4 bochy…stubborness re using vets, among other things
5 dont know the diff between specific and overall
6 players in general….some of whom thought they didnt have to work hard during the shortened offseason

Nail in the coffin

Stick a fork in them. Sad way to see the title defense end like this but so it goes. The unwillingness to spend real money on offense did this team in. Will that be different this off-season? Unfortunately I doubt it and I suspect we’ll just end up getting some over the hill retreads to replace the ones that are leaving. The injuries didn’t help either, but I’m not positive they would have been saved had both Buster and Freddie been healthy. They each go through their slumps at times and Buster was on pace to hit 1/2 as many HRs as last year had he played the same # of games as well as having >20 point lower AVG.

fabiani1233

Is it me or does Bochy love playing Cabrera and Whiteside all the time?
The guy has an addiction to unproductive veterans. I think he needs another trip to that hypnotist.

mike

lessons learned you don’t mess with chemistry period.

remember the giants took 2 out of 3 at philly? without beltran they were finding ways to win and leading their division. not bashing beltran because he’s a good player but ever since he arrived is also the time when the giants began to tank games. nate was on fire until he was forced to move to left field and sandoval was hitting the ball much better. with beltran guys just got lazy and didn’t play up to their level. i honestly believe if the trade wasn’t made the giants would still be leading the division. they had a good thing going at philly.

fabiani1233

If Bochy ever started playing the young guys over his beloved veterans, he’d go into convulsions.

Mavo

I cringe when I read “expert” baseball wannabes cry and moan when Bochy did not call for a bunt there in the 7th with Torres on 2nd with no outs. First off, if Belt does his job and moves him over and Cabrera scores him on a sac fly NOBODY would even mention it! Torres is ALREADY in scoring position with no outs with THREE chances for a base hit to score him. Why on earth give up an out when they could have gotten some hits gone large in the inning and chased Hudson right there? Bochy HAS to expect Belt has a decent chance of moving him over with a ball to the right side … but he also may get one thru to score Torres and ignite a crooked number inning. Even IF Bochy bunts him over and it is successful … the chances of driving a guy in from third with the 7 8 and 9 hitters coming up and one out is NOT automatic!

So regardless of the Giants woeful offense you do NOT throw out the common sense of baseball and bunt with a guy on 2nd and no outs! I would bet that 99% of baseball managers would have done EXACTLY what he did … tell the next hitter to go to right … then hope for a hit or sac fly from the next hitter … and finally hope for a hit with the third guy. You just don’t give up outs that easily in a baseball game … you only usually get 27 of them!

What would have happened if Bochy bunts him over and the next two guys strikeout? The howl from the “experts” would be heard on Mars!!

No Bochy played it like baseball managers have been playing it for about 130 years now .. the RIGHT way!

I just love these amateur baseball managers, mainly fantasy league players, who can sit back with 20/20 hindsight and 2nd guess an experienced seasoned baseball man like Boch! And I am surprised our man Carl stooped to that hit on Bochy after damning him with faint praise in the paragraph before ripping him!

Angry Dan

I am echoing what has been written above. Bochy has many faults with his veteran love, but his resistance to the sacrifice bunt is not one of them. The Giants throw enough OBP-deficient hitters out there as it is who make way too many outs per plate appearance. They do not need to start giving away outs with sacrifice bunts.

TGOH

The best run expectancy chart I could find for this year was made in May, so take that for what it’s worth, but…

ML RE with a runner on 2B and 0 out: 1.057
ML RE with a runner on 3B and 1 out: 0.928

Bochy did the right thing by not bunting.

Mavo

Thanks TGOH for that stat! Did not know where to find that one.

I am not surprised many others on this blog wanted Bochy to bunt there … but an experienced baseball writer like Carl??? Ridiculous!

Mavo

If anybody questioned the role “Lady Luck” plays in baseball and in particular the 2011 season of our beloved Giants … today should dispel them! First off our closer is out and this limits Bochy’s options then on top of that Romo’s wife has their baby TODAY during a crucial game with the team we are chasing! I am not in any way saying Romo should not have been there for the birth of his child … a birth is NOTHING compared to a mere game of baseball!

But it just figures with the tremendous run of bad karma afflicting our Giants this year that THIS would be the day Romo is not available. I am guessing it would have been a MUCH different 8th inning if Romo came in instead of Affeldt and Ramirez instead! That could have turned the whole game right there.

nobody U know

Not to sound morose to all the regular commenters here but, anytime I have the thought of the name Scott Cousins, I WANNA SCREAM AND PUT MY FIST THRU HIS FACE!

Mavo

Finally, even an optimist like me realizes the situation is DIRE now after losing today. It is not looking very likely for a playoff berth. But that said, it is NOT over even yet! I just love Carl’s example above where he projects and says if the Dbacks play .500 the Giants have to go 18-4 to tie. Of course that is all true if a bit obvious … but first off there is NO guarantee this young Dbacks team is going to stay hot and play .500 ball the rest of the way. And even if they do it is NOT impossible for the defending World Champs to reel off a hot streak and win 18 of 22. As an example of a team close to .500 that suddenly took off, look at what the Brewers did recently to make a joke of the NL Central. And for an example of a young team that seemed to have it all going for them … then falling in the toilet … look no further than the Pirates who actually LED the NL Central in July!!

I am sure when the Giants were 17 over .500 … were 4 games up in the NL West … had just taken 2 out of 3 from the Phils in their yard … AND acquired Carlos Beltran … nobody expected them to play six weeks of sub .500 ball!! What makes people think the Dbacks given their inexperience cannot similarly go in the tank this last three weeks???

Projections like Carl’s above remind me of those early season opinions that go “… he is on pace for … etc etc!” LOL The reason the games are played out is … YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN BASEBALL! And that is why I love this game so much! The results are MUCH less predictable than the other major sports like football or basketball.

So do I expect the Giants to overtake the Dbacks and win the NL West this year? NO of course not … I am not stupid. But would I, like many who do not believe in magic have done, want to have written on here that it is OVER … then have a miracle finish happen and look like a unfaithful FOOL for giving up on my team??? NEVER HAPPEN for this lifetime Giants fan! … so ….

Go Giants .. keep fighting!!

orange giants jersey

that was some ugly hitting today…time to sit panda and the huff, start Derosa and Pill.

walt kovacs

Mavo

i respect you man, i feel for your medical issues…but it seems you have paid absolutely no attention to what this team has done all season

they arent hitting with men in scoring position

and a manager willing it to happen…is insane

2nd is scoring position…if guys are hitting with men in scoring position

the night before, 2 runs were scored…on sac flies

ok?

and tgoh finds some stat sheet that proves bochy a genius

and yet…WE DIDNT SCORE

SO SCREW YOUR BLASTED STAT SHEETS

the difference is statistically INSIGNIFICANT

especially on a team…THAT DOESNT HIT WITH MEN IN SCORING POSITION

JA

I really think today was indicative of Belt’s play all season. He HAS been given his fair share of opportunities; he simply hasn’t made the most of it. He’ll string together a hit here and there, but lacks the consistency. Seems like every time we look, he’s “in a slump.” Hopefully the rook can grow from this and become a sold everyday player. But at least for now, he hasn’t looked quite ready for the big leagues.

Mavo

One final thought on the Giants chances … when they started this 12 game homestand they were ONE game out. Then after JUST 12 games they find themselves SEVEN out. That is a SIX game swing in 12 games. What is so impossible then to have a SEVEN or even EIGHT game swing over 22??? It is not likely as I said above … but it is NOT time yet to play all the young guys and maybe toss away the chance for a truly memorable miracle finish! Champions should not give up their title THAT easily and I am sure the Giants will not stop fighting even if some of the “fans” on here already have jumped off the bandwagon!

dsf

Good job Carl, giving Vogelsong props. Just like all Giants pitchers, he deserved better today.

When fans think of the World Series Championship, I’m afraid many think of timely home runs, 14 K’s by Tim in his post-season debut, or Cain’s unflappable 0 ER’s.

So much of a perfect storm came around for the Giants to get there- and to win it. Opening series of the year (vs. Astros), Berkman was still on the DL. Manny was DL’ed for a series when we faced LAD. Weren’t Utley and Hamels DL’ed when they came here in early 2010? Pedroia broke his foot in the first game of the series here. We missed Ubaldo in one rotation when he was the hottest pitcher in baseball. We hit the best pitchers well. We faced injury-weakened teams (depleted of their superstars) thru much of 2010.

Wagner and Prado and Chipper weren’t playing for ATL in the post-season. Conrad booted 3 balls. Posey’s first career steal came in the post-season when he wasn’t safe at 2nd.

For the 1st time in what, 12 years the NL won the All-Star game. If you say it didn’t matter, we didn’t go to Game Seven, you don’t get it at all. It mattered: AT &T pitchers park, no DH to start with momentum and never look back against TX.

Yes, the boys did it last year, I am not here to diminish ANY of it. But we barely backed our way in on the last game of the season DURING a perfect storm of a season. Expecting to pick up a 2010 Ross, or Burrell, or Huff again is impossible to grasp. Or the timely HR’s, the Rookie of the Year… Renteria MVP… All of it.

Our biggest injuries last year were a facial fracture to Rowand, hamstring issues for Torres, and Runzler blowing out his knee swinging, right?

I figured we had a 7 game advantage in ‘strength of schedule’ in 2010. (Padres had a +9, Dodgers a -8.5 differential). Dodgers played NYY for 3 games, we played the Orioles 3 games. Another example? We played Houston 9 games. LAD played Houston 6, Twins 2 extra and St. Louis 1 extra game over us.

Again, I say… Perfect storm of events.

My point? If we wanted to defend, we couldn’t have even fielded the SAME team, it would clearly need to be better. You can’t expect all that good fortune to HELP propel a title defense. Injuries are a tough part of sports. A real part.

I think the Giants could’ve handled things better, getting Cabrera late in the season seemed unreasonable, while we had 4 “shortstops” already. Not seeing Pill seems a crime when we’re decimated by injuries and out of offensive options and trading away the farm for band-aids… sigh.

Blaming Belt for his AB in the 7th is ridiculous. If it is a team game, take a step back from that situation. Why only one run to begin with? the “veterans” had multiple AB’s already. They couldn’t do it. Haven’t done it much of the year. And the Rooks get the blame for being in the box in one situational AB. *sigh*

Brandon

look guys, it’s friggin hard to repeat as WS champs. I thought we would at least get to the playoffs, but hey, we lost our 2 best hitters for the year. Maybe we could have survived it, but let’s be honest, did anyone really think that a team with Eli Whiteside and Chris Stewart behind the plate would make it? Come on. Let’s start looking towards the future. Torres, Ross, Cabrera, Burrell, Ramirez, Whiteside will all be gone next year. Play Pill, Belt, and Crawford every day. See if we can work out a deal with Beltran because he deserves to hit between Sanchez and Posey. Let’s go Giants, beat these Padres for some self esteem. I’m still in it til we’re mathematically eliminated, and hopefully Boch will play the youngsters… anything can happen.

Mavo

@Walt Kovacs – I also respect your opinions .. but on this one we have to agree to disagree! There is NO guarantee that Torres would have scored from 3B even with one out IF a sac bunt was successful there. How often do you think Belt has bunted? I’d venture to say NOT MUCH! Bochy made the right call … based on stats and also on not showing his team that he has lack of respect for their chances to score Torres from 2B with three chances. IMO the sac bunt is ONLY used to get a guy into scoring position at 2B where a mere single can score him …. PERIOD!!

If you feel differently then you are entitled to your opinion and we disagree.

hari

According to baseball Gods, it’s rare WS champs to repeat their feat following year. Giants are no exception – notwithstanding Bochy and Sabean’s demeanor – after Buster’s fall in May.

You simply can’t repeat the daily (Bochy) same old vetrans lineup when your benches are warmed by youth with vigor to bat and try their luck in Sept.

Either Bochy’s mind is closed to (other) options ar he’s really inside convinced this lot won’t make it, as they did in 2010.

E-B

The better team won today, but the better pitcher lost.

Statistical chance of reaching playoffs now ~ 1.8%, and that’s just for now.

It’s still hard to believe that this team won their series w/ the BrewCrew and Phillies in Philadelphia back in July. The team was good back then. What has changed?

Is it the hitting, esp w/ RISP? Nah, not much has changed other than a little blip on the screen.

Is it the defense? Maybe. Lotsa hits getting through holes in middle IF. Lotsa bloop hits to shallow RF that bounce instead of getting gloved.

Tighten up the D and maybe this team can return to winning some games. At the very least, they can support their pitchers, who should file suit against this club for fielding the worst hitting team in baseball. Just get 2 of 3 key elements correct, and u can win some games again.

(and, #17, Mike. I agree w/ your point about “chemistry.” The only thing I’d add is that shared wins foster real chemistry. Like bonding through a shared battle. So, wins are important for building chemistry.)

Why o why do they keep trotting out the fossils & statues out there for our pitchers? The cynic in me wants to say it’s all about money–making sure Timmy’s season isn’t so good that his salary becomes unattainable. (lately, he’s gotten Tejada, O-Cab, O-Cab as SS, even against RHP. why??? and pls, don’t gimme the so-and-so’s got good numbers jazz, unless it was from last year.)

I think the recent DFA’s were a sign that management conceded the season, and were preparing for next year. They’re baseball experts, and they can see the writing on the wall far b4 any of us can…but, baseball’s a biz afterall, and they don’t want to rain on the fan’s parade.

There’s a saying I read in a book, a bestseller. Goes something like this: “…the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong…(skipped), but time and chance happens to all.”

1.8% duzn’t look probable, but it’s still a chance.

LearnToBunt

to entries 1 21 & 22 and other bunting detractors

Bunting Torres over in the 7th would have been a sound sabermetrics act.
The data quoted by TGOH (21) arguing against bunting is taken from an analysis performed on data from 1999 to 2002 (published in The Book by Tango et. al.) at the height of the steroid era when waiting for the three run homer made sense. Moreover even that data from that era shows that bunting the runner over with no outs is more likely to get you one run (though less likely to get you multiple runs) in an inning.
Take into account the Giants pitching staff’s improved ability to hold a two run lead rather than a one run lead, and further consider the very poor Giants clutch hitting average, then choosing to bunt Torres to third is overwhelmingly the correct sabermetrics choice to win this particular game.

NotHappy

“1.8%…. but it’s stil a chance” …. WTF?

Let’s look at where we are:

Runs scored: 30th out of 30 (469)
Batting Ave: 29th out of 30 (.238)
On Base Pct: 29th out of 30 (.300)
Slugging Pct: 28th out of 30 (.356)

How on earth does anybody sugar coat these stats into post-season play?

Rxmeister

“The better team won today, but the better pitcher lost.” That wasn’t only true today, that’s true of most of the season. No opposition pitcher deserves credit for shutting down the garbage that passes for the Giants’ offense. I sure would love to see our pitchers not have to pitch under the pressure of throwing a shutout every single day, not to mention the fact that relievers like Wilson and Romo wouldn’t wind up on the DL if every once in awhile this team scored some runs and they weren’t needed every day.
The season is over, and anyone who tells you differently is in denial. And while it IS time to play the young guys, why bother with guys like Burriss and Ford, who will never be productive major leaguers? Play Belt, Crawford and Hector Sanchez every day. Bochy should have done that anyway. As for Bochy being a good major league manager, no.

kevin

great work, Carl

Craig

Regarding the scoring stats from 2nd and 3rd. Included in the runs scored from 2nd and no outs are those instances where a team sacrifices the guy to third and then he scores so I’m not sure what conclusions can be drawn.

natteringnabob

Worrying about Belt not bunting is crazysauce. Letting Cabrera, by numbers the worst hitter on the team, and Whiteside, nearly as bad, both bat for themselves was lunacy. Rosters have expanded, the bench is plentiful, and letting them flail for themselves was the perfect end to this season.

Yes Sir

Mr. Mavo:
Sir, I am going to be polite. The beauty of the English language allows me or anyone to blast you and your constant nauseating rhetoric. Some of your loyal fans here have praised your BB knowledge. That has gone too far in your brain creating an enormous illusion on your already engorged EGO. Anybody can tell an ugly person that he or she is pretty and they end-up believing that>VOUS(Fr. you, DUH?).

The last nice thing I’ll say about you. It’s your right to opine. It’s NOT your right to say you/your opinoin are better than anybody else, Obama Jr. Create your own blog where you can control it. You will NOT be able to control shots against your inflated opinion.
There are a lot of folks here that know and have played the game just as good as you, HELLO?
Good day

Say What

A lot of people who pipe in on this blog won’t like to hear it, but we’re going to say it anyway — Bruce Bochy is a good manager. Really? May I say, on behalf of individuals that actually know how things go, a journo sucking up to management is no surprise. Bochy’s refusal to see how to use the players he has has killed the Giants this year.
As for playing the young guys Bochy can’t afford to be shown up as a fool again. Last year he had to get the egg off his face re “not ready for the bigs” Posey. How are Cabrerha, The Glove, Huff, The Clueless and Whiteside, The Arm (the 0for brothers) doing?
Please, make these last few games enjoyable. Nate to RF (Beltran to LF w no whining)Belt to First, Crawford to Short and Platoon Ross and Torres in CF AND LET THEM PLAY AS A TEAM. Your laughable “matchups and play the vets strategy has been a miserable failure (did you just hear the Bochy lovers heads explode? He won the WS last year! LOL) You’re not completely out of the screw up loop. You can still run Huff or Cabrerha in as pinch hitters in late inning critical situations. I know it’s just your nature and you can’t help it. BTW for all you “in the know” types out there Google Bochy’s firing by San Diego.

Covehomer

I was at the park yesterday and after sleeping on it. I have a few thoughts:

– Injury plague made a barely average offense – terrible.

– Beltran pick up was great and the move the team needed

– They should have upgraded their catcher at the break

– Bochy is the best manager this club has had in a long long time.

Leaving the park yesterday, I couldn’t get over one thought. The fans must feel like the pitchers. They don’t deserve this. They come, they cheer, they pay, they support. They’ve done it since the park opened in 2000.

We have to debate the little things, because it’s baseball. But too often we focus on one at bat or one pitch. You’d think the team was playing at a level where one mistake would make the difference. Sadly, that is true with the pitching, but the hitters should be embarrassed that they gave up on this season.

Where CO, SD mailed it in. It was between us and AZ and had every chance in the world to get into the playoffs and you never know what could happen.

Should he have bunted Belt, yes. Would we have a 2-0 lead and the pressure of 1 home run may not have gotten to us? Probably.

I hope Giants Management realizes does what they need to do and steps up with some offense in the off season and gives these fans and the pitchers what they deserve.

mlb_shefan

After the Giants/Snakes game, I had to watch the Tigers/White Sox game to remember what actual runs look like.

Pp the wizzer

Huff is a joke. His tired act is no longer watchable. This team is finished. No way Cain or Lincecum should want to keep signing with this group of bats. What a joke. And the joke is only on you for making excuses to watch this garbage. Every opposing pitcher is like Cy Young. And don’t blame Beltran. He is weak in the field compared to NS. But everyone else is too. You were actually looking forward to Burrell returning to the lineup? My gosh, get real! Ross is the boss? Haha. Catching position a complete joke. SS? More like LOL. Clean house. Only position players worth keeping who are currently on field are Pablo…wait, that’s it! One!

ReadytoHangMyself

While I’ll be the first to admit that many things have been completely beyond their control, Bork and Sabean are about the last combo I trust for the organization moving forward. We passed on a few opportunities to build for long term success and once again chose the Band Aid approach eg. Beltran instead of Bourn. What we’re left with is a train wreck of an offense with few usable parts and little near term help available on the farm.

Fire Sabochy.

Cody Ross

Know your squad. Know their strengths & weaknesses. How many times this year would one run have made a significant difference?

Mavo, I agree that having a runner on second is in scoring position for most teams… but not necessarily for this team.

I also ask you, Mavo, to recognize your strengths & weaknesses. Your ALL CAPS TYPING and exclamation points do not put you or your points ahead of the rest of us. If Sabian & Bochy took your advice, Tajada would still be our starting shortstop and batting cleanup.

Bochy

Steward needs a day.

After Further Review!!

I am not going to enter the already tired argument about everything that has gone wrong this season. We all know this season was going to be a tough season, simply because they are the champs. The history of the game shows that is not just difficult, but darn near impossible to repeat.

What I do want to say is that if the front office does not make major moves, they should be shown the door. This is the second year in a row the pitchers have deserved a better personal fate. This year has been something out of a Twilight Zone series. All for of the starters should have 15+ wins, but they barely have 10. One only 9.

I love Sabean and Bochy for what they did last year. In fact, prior to this year, I said
they have a lifetime pass in my book. Well I am revoking that thought for Sabean. He should have done more. Bochy I give one more year. He did the best he could for what he had. I don’t believe there is another manager in history thatbcould have done more. His veteran attitude is very tiring, but he does what he thinks is best.

I really hope they bring in at least 2 big bats. CF and SS. I also believe they could use a Pat Burrell type of extra outfielder. I also believe they need to resign Keppinger. He will be a great utility player/pinch hitter. The jury is still out on Belt, but I want to give the guy a break since he didn’t know if he was coming or going this year. It is almost to bad he didn’t play in Richmond, because his vacation would have been paid for with the frequent flyer miles he would have earned. I do sense that he is a very hard worker and he will come back next year with a fire.

I also hope Crawford comes into ST with a better idea of how to hit. He has an above average glove. He could be special.

larry in aptos

I would agree with the poster who suggested that the Giants were doing just fine before the Beltran trade. We were in first place, 19 above .500, and then went into Cincinnati and had Renteria beat the Giants in the 12th. Beltran is a trade I do question: he had his chance to get hits in situations, and he struck out, popped up, or hit into double plays, and then got hurt. Though I thought the Keppinger trade made sense, I was really doubtful about Beltran. He’s had several good games lately, but then the last two games, everyone else has their bat go silent. It’s time now for Bochy to replace some of these tired, beat up vets with the rookies who just came up: Can Pill play 3rd? Put him there. Crawford at shortstop, and Burris at second, with Belt at first. Outfield: Ross left, Ford center, and maybe Beltran in right, as he should be able to handle right field in Petco Park.

TheSportsLeader

Sure this season may be over (seemingly), but there is A LOT to look forward to. All the Giants need is just a few tweaks in personnel and we’ll be in another pennant drive in ’12. The core of this team is young ie. Timmy, Cain, Madison, Posey, Sandoval, et al. We even have players in the minors like Gary Brown, Surkamp, Hector Sanchez to augment the aforementioned in short time. The Giants WILL be competitive for years, if we keep them all.

I jumped into the Giants bandwagon in ’69, so I know all about “lean” years. Therefore, I am happy with the current organization, and a 2011 season, which despite a horrific August was throughly entertaining for four months.

Bego

When you can’t hit u HAVE to play small ball…cmon Boch wake up your geriatric lineup needs strategy not green light at bats

hilarie

Knee-jerk anti-sac bunt guys who think they’re being sabrelicious are funny. Run expectancy stats, like most others, do not apply in the gravitational field of the league’s most putrid offense.

G’s are hitting .216 with RISP; OPS .618.

Giants opponents — facing some of the best pitching in the league — have a .692 OPS.

RISP with two outs? Giants .163/.290/.250; opponents .225/.359/.324.

In that vortex of futility, yes, you “give up an out” to have the best chance of moving the runner to third.

1. It is extremely likely you’re going to “give up an out” anyway: That’s what the Giants do with RISP.

2. What do you think “hit to the right” means? It means Bochy expected Belt to give up an out while hopefully moving the runner over. Bunting had a better shot of getting the guy to 3b.

3. A runner at third with one out is much more likely to score when the Giants inevitably give up the second out than a runner on second is.

Stats (and strategies) that are inherently based on the mean do not apply in the case of a persistent and extreme outlier. The Giants are the rare team for whom the usually bankrupt concept “productive out” actually has value. Because they are so inferior to their opponent and so bad at hitting, advancing, and scoring, they warp and invert expectations and principles that are valid in the normal universe, where average teams play.

This is like the OGC fallacy: Sabean developing pitching and ignoring offense is a successful strategy because pitching dominates the post season.

Yeah, historically that has been the case because usually post season teams’ offenses are near average or above (like last year’s World Champion team). Like the “never sac bunt” rule, the concept completely falls apart, turns in on itself, when the offense is a black hole.

The Giants needed to sac bunt and pinch hit. They and their supposedly erudite fans should have learned by now the unearthly preciousness of, not only a run, but merely advancing a base because they do it so rarely.

It’s blind stubbornness, nothing less. Go with my guys. Go with my gut. Go with my bedrock beliefs, not what I see with my own eyes. Go with what got us here in the hole we keep digging.

Gamertude

#7 exactly right. Yes injuries played a part but blaming everything exclusively on injuries ignores Sabean’s woefully inefficient moves, particularly not being able to acquire a major league caliber SS or catcher. You’ll never convince me that a preseason acquisition of JJ Hardy or Jason Bartlett as our SS and getting an actual major league catcher to replace Posey would not have won us the division. People just aren’t realizing how unbearably awful this team was at those two positions and adding insult to injury we had terrible defense with slow, old SS’s at the most important position and Eli Whiteside may in fact be the worst catcher in MLB. Find me one with anywhere near the ABs that’s worse, you won’t. Oh and he couldn’t throw out my dad trying to steal second, I think my dad’s power walking just beat the throw again.

Carl, couldn’t have summed it up better than the last few paragraphs. The biggest problem has always been Sabean and Bochy’s inability to recognize when to play for next year (cough, Randy Winn, cough) so let’s hope they at least groom a roster for 2012. My confidence in Bochy and Sabean is reaching pre-2010 levels although the salvation of never seeing Rowand in a Giants uniform again feels better.

Bochy’s answer to Carl Steward’s question (didja even think about sending up someone for Whiteside?) was a window into a stubborn man’s mind. He could only think of one outcome, that he refused to let Kirk Gibson corner him into pinch hitting for Vogelsong. He had his mind set on letting Vogelsong go out into the eighth (choosing loyalty over strategic imperatives) no matter what. So, he let the scoring opportunity go by, which may in itself have been demoralizing.

click my name as I give this thought a workout …

the antedote

The season was probable over after the Saturday loss.

Like I’ve said before, there is only so much Bochy (or any manager) can do with a Sabean line-up.

That said, both Bochy and Sabean are heading into the final year over their contracts. So, if in 2012 Sabean can’t find free agent magic (which hasn’t in 15 years), and Bochy doesn’t start playing small ball (which he never has), that should be it for the both of them.

Iamwatching

Obvious call on
Bochy Carl, but he managed all year like that as well as last year . . .until they made a run and he changed completely before going back to his usual style. That is why it is frustrating to watch a Bochy managed game and also why often the players win in-spite of him.

Gamertude

Oh and by the way run Beltran into the ground. We get NOTHING for him other than to watch our best pitching prospect pitch for another organization. Play him 9 innings every game and then he can go sign into AL anonymity. You got nothing for him so make sure he gives you every inning in September.

And #56 your reason is far too rational. Ownership, particularly Bill Neukom is very cheap and as they’ve said they want to run the organization like a business, not a winner (see NY, Boston, Philly). If you want to be a perennial winner you have to take a little less profit and invest it back into the team and cheap ownership is not willing to do that. They are far too comfortable with Sabean and Bochy and we’ll have to put up with several more seasons of this before they even consider the possibility of a shakeup.

Just think if our GM was Andrew Friedman and our manager was Joe Madddon…

DBACKS

LOSERS MAKE EXCUSES, WINNERS FIND A WAY.

CLUTCHUP YOU ARE A MORON. JUST BECAUSE YOUR STADIUM IS NICER AND HAVE A BUNCH OF MINDLESS FANS WHO PAY GOOD MONEY TO WATCH THAT JUNK THEY THROW OUT AT YOU DOESN’T HELP COVER THE FACT THAT THE GIANTS ARE LOSERS.

YOU BOZOS KEEP TRYING TO THROW OUT THE HEAD TO HEAD STATS, BUT LOOK AGAIN FOOLS. OUR DBACKS HAVE OWNED YOU GUYS DOWN THE STRETCH WHEN IT MATTERS MOST. IN ONE MONTH WE PICKED UP 10 1/2 GAMES ON YOU BUMS.

AS YOUR OLD, TIRED, FAT VETERANS BROKE DOWN, THE BETTER TEAM TOOK OVER AND PUT YOU AWAY, TWICE, IN OUR PARK. HOW DOES THAT TASTE?

NOW GO BACK TO YO MAMA’S BASEMENT AND CRY YOURSELVES TO SLEEP WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU JUST WASTED 6 MONTHS POURING THE LITTLE BIT OF SELF ESTEEM YOU HAVE INTO A LOSER.

tom

The gs yard sale at ATT needs to include these items for a better 2011:

Great post. I couldn’t agree more! Bochy should have bunted and he didn’t have to use Belt to do it. The bench was full of players, several who have better bunting skills than Belt. Use them! Bochy didn’t use any of them in these important games. It’s as if Bochy is blind to the reality of his team’s inability to hit with RISP. His vet love is truly ugly. I’m afraid it will prevent him from playing the kids the remainder of the season, those who might have a future on this team, rather than the stale old has beens.

Enjoy getting swept in the playoffs and well see you next year with all our players including some hitters who are hitting.

I dont know why it happened but the slump is the deepest one I have ever seen.

One things for sure, if we scored a rip roaring 4 runs a game the snakes are 8 games behind not 7 in front. So much for your “best team” analogy.

Bill from Santa Rosa

Once again, great read on the game Carl.

I actually wanted to throw my radio out the window when Sandoval could not get Beltrane home after his triple. In as much a last year’s team had their head on right, this year’s seems too preoccupied. As you said, Vogelsong did not deserve that lose and I’m rather indignant about his lose.

To quote Bochy barking in the dugout during the recent “Franchise” episode: “Get your head out of your ass!”

Feels like there has been too much of that kind of sentiment in this years defense of The Championship.

Foothills Ryan

#53 Hiliare and #35 Learn to Bunt:

Smart retorts on bunting. Hard to argue. Only way to validate a claim would be to simulate the exact scenario 100 times or so (perhaps less). Impossible.

All in all, too much shoulda woulda coulda. It’s over. Water under the bridge.

Giants should run a 7 man rotation or just shut down Cain & Lincecum. They’ve thrown enough stressful innings in vain. Save it up for 2012. Give Sandoval plenty of time off (start the strength conditioning program as well). Throw Zito out there. Work on a screwball. He’s DFA meat mid next season.

The bright side is that there will be no more Aaron Rowand. The bat boy will no longer be responsible for cleaning up the dump he leaves in the box.

Management and Owners can really show the fans what the Giants Way is all about. If they pony up to the 130 million mark, they’ll have a nice middle of the lineup with an aging Beltran (who can still swing it better than anyone on the roster). If they pony up to the 150 mark, they’ll have a dynamic shortstop leading off and perhaps a stop gap centerfielder like Coco Crisp.

We’ll see in the wintertime. For now, it is over until then.

So long.

Hitman

Don’t look now ladies but here comes the Dodgers! Yes. i said the Dodgers! Heh,heh,heh!!!!!

3rdKing

Crawford/Burriss/Belt/Ford

driving us to 20 games over and cruising in first

o well, maybe they will get some burn next year

probably just stick with more veterans..

ps…..Beltran is a cancer

3rdKing

Cabrera/Derosa/Whiteside

you can’t pretend to be a playoff team when you carry players that should not even make an MLB roster

TitoMac

Gamertude

Less profit?

those teams are the most profitable teams.

This market could be real similar. If tapped into properly.

ala 49ers glory years.

Lefty

#58 Gamertude: Part of me agrees with you about getting every last drop out of Beltran, but another part doesn’t want him padding his stats for his next contract now that he’s FINALLY started hitting when it’s TOO LATE.

Here’s the lineup I wish for the rest of the season:
Belt LF
Ford CF
Beltran RF today and then Nate after that if he can play
Gillaspie or Panda 3B (Panda’s been playing banged-up for weeks and could use some breaks)
Crawford SS
Burriss 2B
Pill 1B
Sanchez C (Timmy can still have Stewart if he wants him)

Finally: The bullpen is amazing, but I’m ready to be done with Ramirez. He’s failed to come through on a number of important occasions in recent weeks. He also was at fault for that nonsense with the Phillies, and the Giants were lucky no one was hurt or suspended. Give his spot to Edlefson or Heath Hembree and be sure to retain everyone else.

P.S. Keep giving Surkamp the fifth starter spots and shut down Wilson for the duration. Use Romo sparingly. We need those guys healthy next year.

John in Wilton

Fire the hitting coach!

Beltran should of stayed on first!

The Giants better not give up!

TitoMac

The whole bunting thing is very laughable.

Brandon Belt a left handed hitter should be able to pull the ball PERIOD end of conversation.

A very rookie mistake. why he should not be in there. but he is because the Giants have nothing better.

No more No less.

Some of you clamoring for Pinch hit Whiteside are morons. Pinch hitter gets walked. and Vogelsong is up. what you want to pinch hit him also. Our pen is on fumes. Also most important scenario Whiteside is catching a shutout you do not break that up.

TitoMac

John

No Beltran should not of satyed on first you play the game to win. Not safe apply the pressure it took a perfect throw and thats what it was a perfect throw.

Beltran was like 9-11 in that Series and scored 2 or 3 runs He knows he needs to apply the pressure if he want to score from first. not sit back and play station to station not going to happen with this offense. He probably doesnt even score from second. But you knowwhat you go down fighting and trying to make things happen. not sit back and wait for things to happen. I applaud that effort.

And I am looking forward to 3 or 4 more years of Carlos Beltran.

GO GIANTS! IT AINT OVER! ITS JUST BEGUN!

Peter

It’s pretty clear that besides the pitching staff, the only thing keeping the Giants in the hunt was the scorching hot play of Nate Schierholtz, which started in mid-June and continued through most of July.

slash78

Its all belt’s fault no one else on the team can hit.

Charlie

When will people get it, Bochy is 1347-1367 as a manager over 17 years for a reason. HE IS A AVERAGE MANAGER! His teams have finished 4th or 5th in 8 out of his previous 16 years and only above 3rd 5 times. Last year was great, but probably was bad for the long term success of this team. That WS win guaranteed 2-3 more years out of the Bochy/Sabean combo. You could make the case that Sabean is one of the worst evaluators of free-agent hitting in the history of baseball. He routinely throws away 20% of the payroll on 34 year old washed up hitters. Vizquel, Durham and Molina may be his ONLY hits in the last 10 years. Anyone remember Edgardo Alfonzo?

Leonard Bonilla

There is no point in griping now its too late. The Giants need to start planning for next season. Sabean needs to “re-make” the team. The perfect offense for AT&T is one where you have hitters with speed, defense and high a high batting average, who hit the gaps with occasional power. More like Keppinger, Sandoval, Freddy Sanchez, Schierholtz and Posey. All the rest have to go. Hitters like Ross are too streaky and not dependable over the long haul hitters like Huff are not dependable because they are not consistent, just look at his lifetime records. Power hitters will fail because AT&T is where home runs go to die. Look at Beltran’s triple yesterday, in most parks that is a home run, not at AT&T. The most important aspect would be youth, because they will be around for a while and not fade in the summer. The D’ Backs went youthful, they may not survive the playoffs but they will be this good next season. The Giants have to improve 150% on offense if they don’t and if Sabean continues to get older non productive FA’s you can forget any playoffs next season. Sabean pays way too much attention to an older players history and usually picks them up two years to late. Sabean is, in my opinion not a good judge of offensive talent. He is either getting bad advice form his staff or ignoring it. They will have to over pay to keep Beltran or any other slugger and I don’t think he is a long term solution and a slugger would have to be a strict left field pull hitter or a right field pull hitter and they are too easy to defend against.

Bochy will not trust rookies and will stay with players like Ross,Huff, Tejada, Cabrera, Burrell, Rowand et al for too long. Now some will say well look at Belt he isn’t hitting. I agree, he isn’t but if left in the line-up every day he will start hitting. He will not hit if platooned in Bochy’s “lefty/Righty” strategy which he over uses.

After getting the type of players I mentioned the next piece is get a manager who knows how to use them. NOT Bochy.

Finally if they have offense the starters will not have be perfect every time out and when , as a pitcher you have a good lead you relax and it becomes less difficult to pitch 8 innings. You have seen it happen, so you know I am right. “wait till next year” Sabean will be tested beyond anything like the past. Personally, I don’t think he is up to it!

Lefty

Peter #71: I’d add the Panda and his 21-game hitting streak in June/July.

The most important priorities to figure out between now and next season:

Shortstop: Can Crawford be the guy? That’s why it’s great he’ll play in the AZ Fall League and why he should play EVERY day now. If the answer is “no,” then get in the Reyes sweepstakes or look elsewhere.

Catcher: Can Hector Sanchez be a major-league caliber backup if Posey is injured again or can’t catch everyday? If not, better get a real ML catcher signed for a year or two until we see about Tommy Joseph and Andrew Susac.

Centerfield: Assuming Gary Brown cannot possibly be ready by 2012, better buy or trade for a center fielder, and if we don’t get Reyes, one who can lead off, too.

Everything else is probably good enough–maybe a corner outfielder. I’d say Beltran for his bat but am concerned he’s a defensive liability in RF. I’d sign Cuddyer, put him in left and Nate in right, and let Belt play 1B. Huff? He can be on the bench.

Dillymac

Should’ve traded Belt for Pence as well as Wheeler for Beltran. At least we would have a solid outfield and not a bunch of retread tired crappy veterans trying to get hot, and no more of this dude the media keeps shoving down my throat about how good he will be! He’s not good and I’m tired of him striking out on breaking balls with runners on!
Oh yeah I’m tired of all the stupid animal hats and coming up with dumb animal nicknames. My team has major problems and probably aren’t going to do anything in the offseason except give Orlando Cabrera a 5 year $60 million deal, so excuse me for not buying into this stupid animal hat crap I’m a little to upset for that garbage!

Charlie

#76, I think you may be reading my thoughts. The only problem is that when you say things like that, all of the “new” Giants fans just plug their ears and start signing “Don’t Stop Believing”

Expat

Great post Carl.

Yesterday: Yeah, Bochy should have scratched and clawed to get that run home (i.e. bunted) but arguing that strategy is a red herring. Thinking the game/series/season hinges on that is ridiculous. It’s like arguing what color to paint a crumbling building.

Future: Major fork in the road for the organization on the offensive front that The Antedote sums up well. Will they continue the strategy of “reloading” with vets or truly commit to youth and play smallball? The problem is that Sabean and Bochy seem hard-wired for the former strategy no matter what the results on the field suggest.

Nate’sFanMom

Time to plug the plug on Tito’s recording of “Bright, shiny days.”

Nate’sFanMom

Oh, and what is it now? Three days in a row where where Tito’s boyfreiend muffed the ball in RF?

TheCity

Nate’sFanMom, there will be some bright shiny days i the future, but not the immediate future, heheheh. For this season, I’m not sure which I think is more improbably – the Snakes going 11-11 or the Giants going 18-4 to tied the division. But if I had to pick, I’d say I could easily see Arizona going 11-11, but there’s no way I can see the Giants going 18-4.

Bochy is an average mlb manager at best. Just because the stars aligned such that all the moves he ALWAYS makes happened to work out with his vet laden roster last year, does not mean he kept this year’s team afloat doing the same. The pitching staff kept the team afloat. Bochy drove this club off a cliff in August.

He makes more and more mistakes with every extra vet on the roster. Renteria ruined him. Edgar went through so many injuries and down play, yet came through in the end, that Bochy believes every vet can/will do the same, even though most are washed up, not hampered by injuries as Edgar was. The final straw this year was Crawford and Belt to AAA while he gave Beltran RF and his number (is anyone other than a delusional Tito really going to argue Beltran is better in RF than Nate?).

He won’t change. He can’t change. He has to go.

————————————

I hate that so many games remaining make getting with 4 for the final week possible, however unlikely. I can enjoy rooting for the team here on out just to see a game of baseball be played, but I don’t want my heart ripped out over meaningful games with the same managerial mistakes being made over and over again.

Basically, I think my heart is better off if AZ keeps winning. Imagine if they lose threee in a row and the Giants make up 3 games in a hurry. Bochy would be in a position to hurt us again.

TheCity

Nate’sFanMom,

Beltran has been on fire offensively. Doesn’t matter much for this year, but if Giants plan on signing him for next year, he needs to switch over to Pat Burrel’s spot in Left. Would be ludicrous to keep him in right for next season.

jponry has a problem

Isn’t it enough that you incessantly post on mccoveychronicles to the tune of more 100,000 times. You have to come on here and muck it up as well.

Not only do you not know jack about the game. You have a serious message board addiction problem.

If Sabean were to sign him, his cost has to go down, having shown without question that he is not the gold glove defender of years past and should be relegated to LF. Sure, he’d be a superior defensive player in LF, but his days in CF are long gone, and he is a liability in AT&T’s RF, with the added potential to aggravate injuries.

Similar to my position on the trade for Beltran in the first place. I am fine with keeping him, just don’t overpay in years or value. Wheeler was clearly overpaying in my mind when it happened, and most seem to agree, now. I would not give him more than 3 years, and I’d tell him ahead of time he is in LF.

totalfan62

@ ClutchUp: my ballot on the five reasons:

1) Sabean. His handling of Belt and Crawford, his demoralizing “we’re lucky to be in 1st place” statement, his arrogance and myopic vision to an outdated business model…after 17 years, it’s time for a change. The Giants could have a 49ers-type mini-dynasty over the next 4-5 years if “The Giant Way” is implemented. Won’t happen under Sabean.

2) Lack of hitting (offense). The epic failure of the 2011 offense is mind-boggling. Worse, this is a three-year trend that goes beyond a specific hitting coach (although I believe Meulens is not the right man for the job). We need an improved top-to-bottom of the organization plan for teaching players to be better hitters.

3) Specific player injuries. Losing Posey ripped the heart and soul out of our team. Amazingly, our boys recovered and got back on track only to lose FSanchez, another integral player and essential bat. Sandoval six weeks. Ross four weeks. Torres four weeks. Everyone of them caused upheaval in the order and the roster.

4) Bochy. He is a good manager, just not the right manager for the future of our team. His lifetime record is more an indication of the talent in SD and his first two years with us. However, his refusal to believe in young players and give them a chance to learn, grow and contribute is a substantial negative. Sabean should go, and Bochy is joined at the hip with Sabean.

5) Overall injuries. Seems we were jinxed with injuries, but every team has injuries. Older players break down quicker and more often than younger ones. I think we have a good medical/training staff, but Sabean/Bochy have not realized that the peak years in today’s game are 25-30 yrs, not 28-33 yrs as in the past. The removal of steroids, closer watch on HGH, and elimination of amphetamine use have all had significant impact as well.

Bochy’s Daddy

Agree 100% with Steward’s assessment and call for playing the kids for the remainder of this season. If 2010 was the Perfect Storm in terms of us going on to win the WS, then 2011 has been just the opposite. More like Murphy’s Law: everything that could go wrong did go wrong. The list of injuries, alone, should be enough to persuade any sane fan that this was not our year. Add to that the ill-conceived trade for Beltran and the stubborn unwillingness to trade for Pence (could have had him for Wheeler and either Surkamp or Janchez); and you’ve got just one more piece to this macabre puzzle. Then, just to clinch the deal toss in the non-performances of Torres, Huff, Belt, Burrell, Rowand, Tejada, and Ross (not fair to mention Whitesides or Stewart) and it makes you wonder how we managed to stay in the hunt at all. But all dark clouds have a silver lining, and ours does too: Voglesong, Keppinger, the revival of Panda, the emergence of Nate, the evolution of Casilla, and the promotion of Surkamp will all pay big dividends in 2012. And, if Posey and Franchez can return to 2010 form next year (not likely) we ought to at least be able to give the Snakes and the Bums a good run for their money. But for now, bench the vets and play the kids. It’s over.

LBC fan

After Belt couldn’t get him over, why not have Torres steal third? Hudson already made one mistake to get him to second. I can’t wait until we have Ford, Peguero, Brown, et al running wild on the bases and in the outfield.

totalfan62

I will never root against my team in any one game. However, like many of us I believe this race is over. Mavo, with all due respect, the D’Backs are a strong, young team with an ideal manager and coaching staff, they are only getting better and they will rightfully win this division.

That being said, as soon as we are out of it, the following players should be done for the year: JSanchez, Zito, Wilson, Huff, Whiteside, Cabrera…and Pablo. Shut it down, begin the physical and mental rehab, and let’s see what our younger guys can do.

Infield should be Pill-Burriss-Crawford-Gillaspie. Outfield should be Belt-Ford-Schierholtz. Francisco Peguero is on the 40-man roster, and if it doesn’t cost us an option, let’s see what he can do.

The Giants cannot sustain their status as an elite NL team if they continue to acquire and play players over 30 yrs old. We need to determine what we have and begin now to build the 2012 team.

DirtDog

When the fanbase gets as excited/fights about productive outs as much as we do it’s sad. We should be expecting hits from these guys an settling for productive fly balls or ground outs to the right side. we expect outs and hope for a deep flyball. It sucks. We would’ve expected the same with derosa and probably burell too. We’re a better team than this and 2012 we look set for another playoff run. Injury years are the worst thing to endure as a sports fan. But we need to find a way to be a decent hitting team next year. And we won’t feel as obligate to give huff and Ross and Torres as many chances next year. Another thing to look forward to nex year. No rowand!

Keep’n It Real

1) Bochy is masterful with his orchestrating of the relief pitchers, but some of his roster and game-day batting decisions haven’t been the best. This said, you have to wonder if any of it is due to trying to keep his clubhouse of veterans happy. I know for a fact (based upon beat writer reporting) that some of his lineup decisions were made to keep that happiness intact.

2) Sabean (and ownership) need to get real and go after younger talent that will be part of the solution for the long haul. Reyes from NY (FA) and/or Upton from TB (trade…although I’m not selling the Farm) need to be an addition here. No more stacking a roster full of veterans…this team needs youth and enthusiasm.

3) I am fine with keeping Cody Ross. He can be the 4th OF and platoon with Nate in RF…as needed.

4) Beltran? I think he would be huge hitting #3 in front of Buster…but like most have said…only at a reasonable rate *and* he needs to play LF. Maybe as a compromise, he can play RF on the road. AT&T…you’re the LF, dude.

Last year’s World Series Championship was something we will always treasure, but the bar has been raised and we expect to win more. With the money the ownership group is pulling in with sellouts, TV and merchandise…the do have to start spending like the big boys. Oh yeah….just don’t spend…but spend wisely. Beyond BJ Upton (who would be a great leadoff), sign people with a history of hitting in the NL…because AL success (and visa-versa) doesn’t always equal NL success. Upton’s speed (and being on a team playing against his brother in AZ) could really translate good in the NL; especially with some bunt singles.

totalfan62

One more thing: under no circumstances should we sign Beltran! He is a proven all-star with a sweet swing and run-producing skills. He will be a good add for a young team with a low payroll that needs an impact player. The smallest Beltran contract will be three years/$40-45 million, and that is money we must invest in our pitching staff.

Almost assuredly we have another year of Huff at 1B, meaning Belt plays LF. Schierholtz has earned the RF spot from day one, so the only open position is CF and that’s no longer Carlos. What about Peguero, rated higher than Gary Brown by respected baseball scouting organizations? Brown could be here by late 2012 as well. Signing Beltran is “lidding the talent” as Neukom said, and is counter to everything the Giants need to do.

ReadytoHangMyself

Don’t sign Beltran. He is part of the problem not part of the solution. We need speed and D. Not more boat anchors.

Bochy’s Daddy

2012 Possible Team Profile: Nate in RF, Brown in CF, Torres in LF, Panda at 3B, Keppinger at SS, Franchez at 2B, Belt at 1B, Posey at C, Ross/Crawford/ Fontenot/Stewart/Huff on bench; trade Janchez, Whitesides and Affeldt-or-Runzler for bat in CF or LF…and don’t even think about resigning Beltran.

I simply can’t go along with “Bochy is masterful with his orchestrating of the relief pitchers.”

I do not see anything that suggests he is superior to other mlb managers with regards to relievers. First, he has the benefit of an excellent starting staff that chews up more innings than most teams, putting less of a burden on the pen. Second, he has had the gift of a dominant closer for the vast majority of his managing career with Hoffman, then Wilson.

Are there really decisions he has made that other managers would not in the same situations? Doesn’t non-game decisions regarding the pen have just as much, in not more, to do with the bull pen coach?

Just because the pen does well does not mean it is because of Bochy. He makes good moves and he also makes mistakes.

Sorry to go off on such a minor point to what I believe was a well thought out and accurate post @11:23. I just really think Bochy is given credit for anything that goes right without closer examination, just as he is praised for Ross in last years’ playoffs (when Guillen would have played but for the FBI) and the teams’ club house atmosphere last year (when the Burrell/Huff friendship and Uribe’s swagger had so much more to do with it). Not to say he does not deserve some credit, just nowhere near adjectives like “masterful.”

Watching the game on TV, it looked like Vogey was losing his command on the pitches to Young (just before Roberts HR). Perhaps if Romo was at the game, Vogey would have been pulled earlier. Until then Vogey was ace-like.

I don’t know if it was a sin that Bochy blew the 7th inning but I think the game has changed and he has not changed with it. While he did a great job last year as the manager of the WS Champs, the Giants got on a run in Sept. and Oct. and did the little things right to win it all.

Of course last year Torres was doing a better job getting on base and creating energy on the bases, Sanchez was an excellent #2 hitter and played super defense, Posey was the catcher, and Huff and Burrell had great years. This year it is different.

Well well well, Im not the only one out there who thinks Boch is not a good maneger. When I’m out having a few on fri. nites with other Giant fans and bring up the Fact that Boch makes a lot of bone head moves, I get static. First: He did not lead the Giants to the World Series, Despite Boch!! the players won it all, except zito. Last year huff, ross, did good. This year 0-4, 0-4, gets old and who keeps it up, B, whiteside, steward, flops, sab should be falling over himself looking for back up for Posey next year. A new hitting coach, a new manager, a new gm, the guy we let the dogs take from us a couple years ago, he was the brains not sab. Players who be let go, ross, huff, font, belt back to fresno, I see him as another bowker. ramirez. And while I’m at it, wilson not closer material, Romo is, wilson does what Brantly did, but Brantly had the stuff to get out of it.the beard does not. tim has fallen for all the hipe, fear the beard, etc. shave the beard, get a hair cut, that was last year, how did it serve you this year.?? And to end, I’ve been a Giant fan since the 60s, Juan, Willie Mac, Mays, Sanford, and the other greats. Thanks I needed that.

mike

#17

just to add to my post with beltran out, pablo smacked two home runs today.

JC

Sorry Baggs, I like peanuts. If the Giant can go 12-3 in the next 15 games while the D’Backs go 9-6, that puts us four games back going into AZ for a sweep, which would put us down 1 going into final series at home vs COL.

Crazier things have happened. Lest we forget the Padres epic meltdown last year? It aint over til its over.

bradleybear

Bochy picked a really bad game, to have a bad game.
Even now, what happens if the giants suddenly win 5 more
in a row, and the dbacks suddenly lose 5 in a row. We would
then have a pennant race, so maybe the giants 15 and 7 and
the dbacks go 8-14, then what. I do not expect it to happen,
but I have seen crazier things occur in baseball so they still need
to play with great vigor. At some point I want to see if Pill can
hit major league pitching, before he sits on the bench too long and
gets stale and rusty. Ross had an off year, and I would not expect
him to be as bad in 2012. I think some of the guys who are playing
are hurt too. tough year for injuries.

bradleybear

The giants know they have good pitching,
so it is up to Bochy to try to produce runs
from this team. The pitchers often hold the
opposition to low run totals, so he should not
sit back and wait for the big inning which never
comes. I agree with the comments at least
for this game. Except for a rare first inning
homerun, does it not seem odd to folks that
the giants rarely get off the schnide until after
the third inning? The rarely hit early in a game
Some of our pitchers lately have struggled in the
first inning.

It’s Tuesday 9/06/11 Been out of Town; Fall ball team took advantage of long weekend to travel and play ball in Monterey Calif.

Three stories behind here.
@ Total Fan @1109. Thanks. My list was quite different. My reasons were:
(1) Specific Player Injuries (Posey-FSanchez) (2) Offensive ineptitude by too many (other) players at the same time (3) Cumulative effect of all the other injuries took hold (players started pressing, trying to do too much) (4) Bochy (5) Sabean

@ DBACKS says: September 5th, 2011 at 8:46 am 58..LOSERS MAKE EXCUSES, WINNERS FIND A WAY.
-DBack: That’s a great expression and in your eyes I may be a moron. but I am not 30-35 and I type on my computer at work or at my computer at home (Don’t own an IPhone). I like YOUR team, Gibson-Williams-Trammel and Don Baylor, the whole 9 yards. Would like to debate baseball with you. You can do that with normal typing. (Not all caps) I want to read all your stuff, but on most etiquette/decorum sites its says all caps, all the time, every time is like yelling. Let’s debate each other with real, normal baseball expressions and see where we go. Let’s talk ball and strategy and the 162 game schedule. I’m game. Oh, in California neither my parents, nor my neighbors nor I have a basement.

@Mavo (bunting) You and I have almost agreed on 99% of baseball type strategy, but I disagree this time. Sunday’s game was a two game swing. I don’t ask Belt to bunt because he did not do that at U of Texas or at any level of MiLB. Someone else I my bench bunts him to third. There are at least 8-9 legit ways to score from 3rd base than from 2nd. You can actually find double digit ways to score from 3rd than 2nd but many of those high double digit ways require bizarre-type stuff.

Going to San Diego 5 games out was required…So a manager leaves his comfort zone and plays Sunday’s game like the last game of the WS. There had to be a different degree of urgency, not necessarily more urgency.

There were position players or pitchers on the bench who could have gotten the bunt down. Huff with 9-11 yrs in the bigs amazingly got a bunt down last WS, but he is a veteran. Belt was not going to get a bunt down and his right side ground ball was not going to happen because he is currently Mind-Effing himself (over thinking) and everyone again is jamming him inside.