I know this happens depressingly often, but I'm still blown away by people who have supposedly done consciousness-raising, be it through environmentalism, feminism, POC movements, AR, etc., and still manage to take a supremacist, discriminatory attitude to those who aren't exactly like them.

Lierre Keith (previously known for being The Dildo Who Called The Cops To An Anarchist Bookfair) and Derrick Jensen, who head up Deep Green Revolution, apparently have a 'rad fem' belief system when it comes to transgender folks.

Quote:

What exactly does Keith believe? Among other things, that the “phenomenon of trans” was created from porn culture and “that men insisting they are women is insulting and absurd.”

And of course, the author of The Vegetarian Myth, in which she quotes other books (not studies, mind you) as sources, misquotes other authors, and mistakes personal experience for empirical evidence. http://james-mcwilliams.com/?p=1333

Separately, reading her logic makes my head hurt. If you feel that gender doesn't exist outside of patriarchal structures that you're fighting against, why exclude trans women from women's spaces? And why does it matter to you which of these "non-existent" things a person identifies with?

Separately, reading her logic makes my head hurt. If you feel that gender doesn't exist outside of patriarchal structures that you're fighting against, why exclude trans women from women's spaces? And why does it matter to you which of these "non-existent" things a person identifies with?

That part is what's especially mind bending to me. Of course it's not much more illogical than her and Jensen's attitude that the most sensible way to save humanity is by culling the majority of the population.

_________________Like the beleaguered people of sub-Saharan Africa, I'll just go to Denny's. Solidarity!-mumbles

Am I too young or too old to understand what the fork radical feminism is?

Radical feminism is pretty much the belief that society is too institutionally patriarchal, so revolution is needed. They also believe gender is a social construct. Radical feminists of yesteryear were often transphobic or trans exclusive, although this was very very common in the second wave. Radfems today carry on this tradition, much to the ire like eatsbabies says of feminists who consider themselve radical but do not want to be at all associated with transphobes. If you hear someone say "radscum", they're talking about transphobic radical feminists.

And here its kinda funny in a horrible way because Lierre Keith appropriates trans* narratives by claiming she is trans-racial.

Quote:

"…how about this. I am really Native American. How do I know? I’ve always felt a special connection to animals, and started building tee pees in the backyard as soon as I was old enough. I insisted on wearing moccasins to school even though the other kids made fun of me and my parents punished me for it. I read everything I could on native people, started going to pow wows and sweat lodges as soon as I was old enough, and I knew that was the real me. And if you bio-Indians don’t accept us trans-Indians, then you are just as genocidal and oppressive as the Europeans.”

ETA: I'm a dummy, that's in the article. But its still horrible! Its like, transwomen are misogynists? But white people fetishizing other cultures and appropriating them are trans?

_________________I was really surprised the first time I saw a penis. After those banana tutorials, I was expecting something so different. -Tofulish

Am I too young or too old to understand what the fork radical feminism is?

Radical feminism is pretty much the belief that society is too institutionally patriarchal, so revolution is needed. They also believe gender is a social construct. Radical feminists of yesteryear were often transphobic or trans exclusive, although this was very very common in the second wave. Radfems today carry on this tradition, much to the ire like eatsbabies says of feminists who consider themselve radical but do not want to be at all associated with transphobes. If you hear someone say "radscum", they're talking about transphobic radical feminists.

And here its kinda funny in a horrible way because Lierre Keith appropriates trans* narratives by claiming she is trans-racial.

Quote:

"…how about this. I am really Native American. How do I know? I’ve always felt a special connection to animals, and started building tee pees in the backyard as soon as I was old enough. I insisted on wearing moccasins to school even though the other kids made fun of me and my parents punished me for it. I read everything I could on native people, started going to pow wows and sweat lodges as soon as I was old enough, and I knew that was the real me. And if you bio-Indians don’t accept us trans-Indians, then you are just as genocidal and oppressive as the Europeans.”

ETA: I'm a dummy, that's in the article. But its still horrible! Its like, transwomen are misogynists? But white people fetishizing other cultures and appropriating them are trans?

I read that as being sarcastic, like they were using that example to show how "ridiculous" it is when "men" claim to be "women."

_________________These shitbirds should pay for their own elections if they aren't going to be obligated by any democratic pretense. - MumblesDon't you know that vegan meat is the gateway drug to chicken addiction? Because GMO and trans-fats. - kaerlighed

There are actually a lot of white people on the internet who insist its unfair that transwomen get to identify as women but white people can't identify as other races (white people who identify as trans-Japanese seems to be the most common one), in all seriousness. Considering how much she does in serious face hark on the noble savage trope and fetishizes aboriginal communities, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

_________________I was really surprised the first time I saw a penis. After those banana tutorials, I was expecting something so different. -Tofulish

Do they? That surprises me. Cause I do believe that and I've gotten into fights with people I considered "radical feminists" before. They were all about women being superior to men in all aspects just by definition. They had super weird strict black/white thinking about men and women and I always thought thats where part of the trans-hate actually came from.

_________________

lepelaar wrote:

The PPK is a mere cooking seminar for flexitarians who believe in the good of man, but might be a good resource for 3d video expertise and ready-made inhumane slaughterhouse timelines.

forking fork fork. I have had this fight with radical feminists many times. My only response now is that it is hardly radical to peas on a minority group from a great height. People have been doing that forever.

Mat.

_________________Lady Gaga and Beyonce should run her over with the kitten Wagon for that one comment alone - Torque (speaking of Katy Perry)

I actually watched the whole Deep Green Resistance video. It wasn’t too bad, I don’t mind those sorts of discussions, but yeah, it’s not like I’m signing up for any newsletters.

Erika Soyf*cker wrote:

another reason Lierre Keith sucks

We needed another reason?

Rachel Ivey of Deep Green Resistance wrote:

Lierre, who’s unflinchingly vocal on the topic, has received threats of violence and death threats because she does not hold back with her view of gender.

A person who advocates violence as a means of social coercion is being threatened with violence as a means of social coercion?

Wah.

Erika Soyf*cker wrote:

supremacist, discriminatory attitude to those who aren't exactly like them.

But Keith and Jensen do this with animals with their brand of animal rights so it’s hardly a surprise they would do it with people.

I’m sure a dead transgendered person in his refrigerator told Jensen to reject transgender the same way the dead fish in his refrigerator told him to eat fish.

Derrick Jensen — Endgame wrote:

I get up from in front of the computer, where I’m writing about taking down dams. I walk to the refrigerator, open the door, reach inside to pull a strip of salmon out of a bag. I peel some meat away from the skin. The salmon flesh speaks to me. It says, “Remember the bargain.”…This time the salmon says something else to me: “I know you don’t like killing. If you help take out the dams that will help us survive. Then you can kill and eat all the salmon you’d like. We will even jump out of the water and right to where you are waiting. You won’t feel bad about killing us, because you have helped our community. We will gladly do this for you, if you will help us survive.”

I had a similar conversation with a bowl of chia pudding the other day so I know for an absolute fact that this exactly what Jensen probably might have heard.

Dead Transgendered Person (in ethereal voice) wrote:

Hello! I am the sole spokesperson for all transgendered people! Oooo! Remember the bargain! It’s okay to reject us so long as you take out the dams! Er, no, I mean, so long as you ultimately grant us acceptance as persons! You won’t feel bad about rejecting us now because you will have helped us later! Somehow! I guess, vive la revolution! Again! This time for real! By writing another book! Then you can reject all the transgendered people you want! We will gladly line up at the opportunity to be rejected and killed by you! No wait, not the killing part, I keep getting mixed up! Oooo!

Yeah, you laugh, but native peoples spoke with dead transgendered people all the time and that’s what they always said. (Paraphrasing Jensen’s defense of his “reasoning.”)

One of the things that abusers constantly want us to do is to believe that there is only one way to be which is theirs.

Just say’n.

vegimator wrote:

Of course it's not much more illogical than her and Jensen's attitude that the most sensible way to save humanity is by culling the majority of the population.

On the other hand, it’s perfectly logical extension of the animal husbandry ideology of bettering animals’ lives through exploiting and killing them.

Hello there vegimator. Would you like to enter in an ancient and equitable symbiotic relationship with me? Remember the bargain!… Oooooo!

(Hides sledgehammer behind back.)

Actually, I don’t need your consent; our primitive ancestors both agreed to sign over your person a few millennia ago. Here’s the contract, it looks blank to you because it’s psychic paper that only I can read. Anyway, “circle of life” —

Jokes and jabs aside, this would all be more interesting if anybody of importance cared about the Deep Green Resistance organization, according to Rachel Ivey, “a group advocating the forcible dismantling of civilization.” Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

I’m just asking so that I know whom I should call stupid to their face.

It strains my imagination that there are any vegans here who are like, “OMG! Lierre Keith has a group? Sign me up!”

Reacting to this feels like getting bent out of shape over David Miscavige’s gender policies for the Church of Scientology. No, actually, I care more about the gender policies of Scientology since there are far more influential and effect far more people than DGR. And by “far more influential,” in the grand scheme of things, Scientology isn’t very influential at all, so that should put the influence of DGR in proper perspective.

If anyone’s heart is broken over DGR’s gender policies, they probably need to critically examine why they align with or care about DGR, Jensen, and Keith, in the first place.

There are a lot of great links in there too, that I found thought-provoking.

Quote:

There are three aspects of this trans “debate” that particularly chap the spinster hide. One is that it is even considered a debate. Is there anything more demeaning than a bunch of people with higher status than you sitting around debating the degree to which they find you human? I don’t think so.

She then goes into the other 2 reasons in more detail than it makes sense to set out here.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.