To link to the entire object, paste this link in email, IM or documentTo embed the entire object, paste this HTML in websiteTo link to this page, paste this link in email, IM or documentTo embed this page, paste this HTML in website

Perspectives of the Past Oral History Project:
Rose Cabat, nee Katz
Photo gallery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pimacountypubliclibrary/sets/72157626861018629
Lisa Bunker: So one of the questions I wanted to ask, um, can you tell me your name, your age, and um, where we are?
Rose Cabat: And where we are?
LB: Yeah, just say we are in your kitchen or something...
RC: Yeah. I'm Rose Cabat, my age is 97, I was born June 27th, 1914, and I'm right now being interviewed by Elsie, not Elsie (laughter), by Lisa. By Lisa, in my kitchen.
LB: Can, can you tell me what you do for a living?
RC: Well I'm a potter, but lately I have not been potting (laughter), because I've had an accident. So I’ve been out of commission for a few months.
LB: What kind of pots do you make?
RC: I make things for collectors at this point in my life. I no longer make things for use. I only make things to look at. And the collectors love it and that's what I make. I make what is called “Feelies.” A very smooth glaze on a very, very, elegant little pot, with a very, very, narrow neck.
LB: Do you, do you have special colors that you like to make them?
RC: Well I have a full range of colors, of course. The colors I like best are the turquoise, the cobalts-that's the royal blues-the pinks, and the apple greens. Of course there are other colors too, that aren't just colors, they're combinations of colors. Those are my favorites.
LB: And, and how do you, how do you get the glazes? Do you buy the glazes?
RC: No, I don't buy the glazes. All the glazes are made from a formula. That we, it is called a secret formula (laughter) that, that's the formula that I have, I, and my husband have made and we've been using all over the years. We just make new combinations of colors. The colors are new, but the original formula, the basic formula is the same. It isn't the formula I've used all my life, from the very beginning, because I've use stoneware glazes, and I've used uh, earthenware glazes and other glazes that I've gotten the formulas for. But this is our own formula that we have developed.
LB: And, and how do you make the pots? Is it, is it coil?
RC: No, no, none of these pots are coiled. I have made coil pots in the past, but these pots for collectors are made on the wheel. They’re thrown on the wheel and they're finished on the wheel and uh, well they have to be sanded to make ‘em perfectly smooth, to, to uh accept this beautiful glaze and then we fire 'em. We first have to fire them to make them hard enough to withstand the, the moisture of the glaze.
LB: Mmm, where do you fire them?
RC: I fire them in my carport, in uh either the Crusader kiln, or the Scut kiln. Lately we have been using the Crusader Kiln because Scut kiln is gettin old, and it’s taking too long to fire (small laugh).
LB: How ho, how hot does it get? That...that must…
RC: It gets very, very hot and I don't disclose the temperature of that either.
LB: Okay. Um, well so, you're a potter now, what did you want to be when you grew up?
RC: Well, when I grew up (lots of laughter in her voice)? I wasn't thinking of anything except to grow up! I started actually in kindergarten.
LB: Throwing pots?!
RC: Well, they gave us clay and we coiled (laughter), that's how I knew I was able to coil a pot. Because when my husband brought home clay, that he wanted to make dishes out of, to put his designs on, he let it there while he was a freelance artist, he left it at home and since I recognized clay when I saw it, I took some and rolled out coils and made myself a pot. And when he came home, I, he thought I was a genius (laughter) 'cause they were just small pots that I remember making while in kindergarten. So after that, he kept bringing home clay for me to make pots, but I didn't, I coiled heads. I coiled heads and made dif, African heads and Chinese heads and figurines and things like that. And that was all in New York [the Bronx], before I came to Arizona. That was in 1938...1940, my son was born in '38, he was only two years old. In '40 that I really went into making uh, pots. And then, because I was, my husband was so entranced with me making all these things, he got me a scholarship or, or a membership in Greenwich House, which is a Settlement House in New York. And uh, I, I, there's no courses there you just work there. They had a big wheel there, and they had glazes and they had all sorts of things, and you could work at your leisure. And so I taught myself how to work on the wheel.
LB: So they, they didn't have teachers?
RC: No, they had a, uh, somebody in charge. They didn't have a teacher as such, but people could do what they wanted in that uh, glaze room and pottery room. And so since they had this huge wheel up on a stand, I taught myself how to throw at the wheel.
My husband on the other hand didn't want to kick the wheel, there was a little electric wheel there and he also joined, and he tried out that electric wheel and first thing you know, he put his foot on it too hard and the clay just spun right off the wheel and that was the end of his wheel throwing. He was not interested in throwing anymore. He didn't have the patience for it. But, he did have patience for glazing, and he did glaze a lot of my things. And he wanted me to make bowls for him to decorate. And so that's wh-how I started. Just making bowls on the wheel so he could put his underglazed decorations on them. They were low fire pieces; they were earthenware at that point.
But when we came to Arizona that was a different thing. I didn't have the glazes, I didn't the clay, I didn't have anything and when my husband came out, oh a few months after me, I came out in '42 or '43...1942, he came in '43. And uh, we, I have no clay. He went to the, he was uh, not bashful at all, went to Grabe's Brickyard, where they had clay making bricks and got some clay for me. There. And I made a couple of figurines in that red brick clay. Which he took back to Grabe's Brickyard and Mr. Grabe was very...wonderful about it, he made a little area to put the figurin...figurine in and built a little compartment around it and fired it with the bricks.
LB: Well, that was nice.
RC: I still have it.
LB: Do you really? Wow.
RC: That one p...the first piece.
LB: The first piece you did in Arizona?
RC: Yeah. After that, my husband looked around for maybe a wheel to, for me to throw on. And he found out that there was a wheel uh, made out of uh, an old washing machine that spun around...a round, round washing machine. But, it had uh, oh, it went the other it went the Japanese way instead of the American way so you had to throw on the right side instead of on the left side. And they uh, the electricity was up high about oh half way up the thing to turn it on and off, the, what would you call it? The...uh...
LB: The switch?
RC: The switch. So I had to stand on one leg (laughter) and had my foot on the switch on the, halfway up the washing machine, well I said I looked like a flamingo (laughter).
Well that didn't last very long, when he found out that someone else had a wh, uh, uh, a small wheel that you could sit at. She was a well-known potter, I can't think of her name right now, in, in Tucson. But she had died and her wheel was available. But, when you went to throw on it, you couldn't throw more than ten pounds on it because it stopped. So my husband had a look around for another wheel and he found one through uh, magazines or something. The Randall wheel, in Alfred New York. Up in near Alfred. We were going to go to Alfred originally, to, but my hu, my son had gotten ill with asthma and we were told we had better get out of New York and so that's how we came to Arizona.
LB: So, so you came to Arizona in 1942...
RC: Yeah. With my, I came with my son.
LB: You came with your son...
RC: But my husband stayed in uh, back in New York because he was working on that uh...Narrow Bay, whatever it is, that bombing of Japan project.
LB: Enola Gay?
RC: Enola Gay. Up in the seventh floor in the Times building. He had a job up there, a very, very secret job, making cartography maps and things for bombing, the bombing of
Japan. So he couldn't leave, so he was there until '43. And when he got his leave and then
came here, and went to work for Consolidated-Vultee [Aircraft, later Convair, now a part of General Dymnamics] which was uh, making bomb bay doors. For the B-50 or 49 or one of those (laughter) "B's," I don't know. But since he could read blueprints and the workers, a lot of them couldn't, he would make the drawings from the blueprints so that they could understand what to do. So he worked there 'til the end of the war. And I worked at Davis-Monthan [Air Force Base] well, we were boarding with uh, a Mrs. Rancier [?].
LB: Where was that?
RC: Uh, north First Avenue, she had a place where she had oh, the boys who were uh, in the Army and, you know, who lived, lived off the base there. And uh, a couple of other we women, She had a boarding house. So I worked at midnight and uh, so I was back with my son during the day. So...
LB: Huh. So what kind of work were you doing?
RC: Yeah. Well that when my husband came out, we moved to the uh, uh Consolidated-Vultee dwellings. Which they had on south sixth avenue at that time there was sort of a barracks type of thing, uh, a whole city of barracks for the workmen of uh, um, Consolidated-Vultee. And I worked at Davis-Monthan. Until my son was born, my second son was born.
LB: What kind of work were you doing at Davis-Monthan?
RC: I was a riveter, I was Rosie the Riveter. And when my uh, one of the gals who boarded with me, was uh, my bucking partner. We both had gone together and gotten our jobs there at Davis-Monthan at the same time, and so she was my bucking partner...
LB: But what does that mean?
RC: That she held the bar, while I riveted against it, she was in the strut where she was a small person she could get in behind the struts and I was outside where I riveted on her bucking bar which she held against the hull. We put a patch on and then put rivets around the patch and the patch was riveted on.
LB: Wow. Was that dangerous?
RC: No, no. It wasn't, at least I didn't think it was dangerous (laughter). No. But uh, it was, it was, I worked the graveyard shift...
LB: Wha, was it all women?
RC: No, it was men and women, everybody worked there.
LB: Yeah.
RC: Yeah.
LB: Yeah.
RC: Yeah. Well after my son was born I quit the job.
LB: Well what, what was Arizona like when you first came?
RC: Well, it was a dusty town. And there weren't that many people. And I wasn't very pleased with it at first because I was a city gal, and the mountains to me looked like just cardboard cutouts, they didn't look like mountains, they looked like just cardboard cutouts.
But, I got used to it and then when we bought our own place, our own property on uh, it was called Alvin Road at that time 'cause it wasn't a street, it was just a road. And uh, we bought uh, two, two room house. With no bathroom or anything just an outhouse and a chicken yard and uh we started building onto it. But we didn't realize we were in a flood plain. (Laughter)
And, and the first, the part that we built on, down below we thought well, we'll build-this was uh raised up. The fir, the two rooms were raised up off the ground and we didn't realize why it was raised up (laughter). We were going to build the rest of the house down below and just use those two rooms. Well it flooded in, but fortunately we hadn't laid the floor yet. So, we realized that the rest of the house would have to be built above so our living room is on, down below. But fortunately in the ensuing years, they cut the street down and so we no longer were flooded (laughter).
LB: So the water goes down the street and not into your house.
RC: Then it was called Alvin Road, but then when it became a street, it was called Blacklidge Drive. 'Cause on the other side of Country Club, was Blacklidge Drive, but the side we were on, on the east side of it, was Alvin road. And that's were Fenster School was with their horses. And their horses used to run all over our property. But they have now moved, they have since moved to the foothills somewhere. But at that time Fenster Ranch was just up the street.
LB: Wow. I hadn't realized that.
RC: Yeah.
LB: What else was Tucson like?
RC: Well, it, it Tucson well, it was, it was cozy though. You know, it was very friendly. And uh, of course downtown, when you went downtown, everybody knew everybody, the Le- there was the Levy’s, uh, Men's Store, and there was Steinfeld’s, and there was Grunewald & Adams and there was there, the, the, the uh, Woolworths and aha...you know, all these places that we just knew, you know, just it was just a downtown where everybody came. 'cause there was no other place, there were no malls and things.
There was El Conquistador Hotel further south, and it was beautiful, it was just beautiful. And that, that was razed and they put up uh, El Con Mall there which didn't and Levy's moved out there, and gradually everybody started moving away. The White House was downtown...
LB: The White House! What was that?
RC: That was a, they called it the White House, it was a...a, oh, a store where men bought clothes and women bought you know, things like that. It was called the White House. The Myerson’s, I think owned it. It was downtown too. All these things...Valley National Bank was there, the Southern Arizona Bank was down there, everything was downtown around Congress Street.
LB: Wha- where things air conditioned in those days, or, or how did you deal with the heat?
RC: No, we didn't have air conditioning, we had swamp coolers. If you had a swamp cooler, otherwise you had a fan. But uh, we had a swamp cooler too, for the longest time, until we built on uh different rooms and so on, and then finally we got an air conditioner. Much, much later. But we've been living in this same house now for sixty five and a half years.
LB: Wow. Well, and, and, the Tucson Museum of Art says that you're their oldest member.
RC: That's right.
LB: So when, when did you join?
RC: Well the thing is, when we first came, I don't know what year it was, but uh, a little later Berta came, Berta Wright came and the uh Patanias came and uh a number of other people came and they formed uh, the Arts Center. Not the museum, the Art Center and they had the uh, they're first meetings down on Chamber of Commerce I think was down on, on uh Stone avenue somewhere down in the basement somewhere. It started off very small.
LB: About when?
RC: In the forties. It was in the forties. But it wasn't called a museum; we called it the Art Center.
LB: So did you bring in artists or were you exhibiting your own work?
RC: No, artists. And then we moved, they [the Art Center] moved to Franklin Street. Franklin. And we were there for a while. And my husband, that was after the war, my husband and his partner uh, Joe, Joe Gill his name was Norval Gill, but we called him Joe, nobody called him Norval. Uh they opened an advertising agency after the war, in Norval's house on River Road. That was right on the banks of the Rillito River.
LB: Really?
RC: Yes. And he is the one who taught my husband how to build, because my husband was a city man too, he'd never built anything. But he did put up all our beams, all our ceilings, with the help of Joe and other friends, they made this livable.
LB: Huh. So this is still the two-room building...
RC: The two room building that we had. And uh, the house that Joe lived in, right on the banks of the [Rillito] river, one year, there was a very bad flood and I think there where pictures of that house, he had already moved back to California, Joe. And Erni wasn't in charge of the Cabat-Gill advertising agency.
LB: Erni was your husband.
RC: My husband and he had opened an advertising agency in Norval Gill's house. But then they got a little bit more known, (laughter) and weren't called city slickers anymore, they were able to do advertising jobs for uh, Southern Arizona Bank and Valley Bank and all the different companies downtown, so they were able to move on to what was once uh, Pennington and Driscoll. But there was no longer any Driscoll street.
LB: Hmm. Where was it?
RC: Right on Pennington between Stone and uh, uh, sixth? Or somewhere in between there on Pennington. Cele Peterson [a fashionable store] was there.
LB: Oh yeah. Sure, sure.
RC: She was across the street. But Don Harlow, and Erni and Norval had there uh, shared a place on Pennington Street. Don Harlow also had his uh, studio there, or he was [?] what do you call them, where they...landscape architect. I don't think he had his uh, he didn't have his uh, plant place, whatever you call the plant place.
LB: His nursery? [now Harlow Gardens Nursery]
RC: The nursery. He didn't have it then, out on Pima where he has it now, but he wor- he did have an office down there, on Driscoll and Pennington, and as I say, Driscoll is no longer there. There's no Driscoll Street anymore.
Whatever they've done, the whole downtown is different now. I wouldn't recognize it. I've, I've been down there with friends and I wouldn't know my way around except for Congress Street. But none of the old-timers are there.
So that's the way life went, here. And pretty soon they started paving streets and they lowered the streets on Campbell and Blacklidge which was now Blacklidge instead of Alvin road. And put in streets, and sewers and we finally got uh, gas line. Before that we didn't have, we just had electricity, no sewers, no gas lines. And we had a septic tank. But once they got the sewer in we got hooked up with the sewer. So we were modern by that time.
And I was used to Tucson, and I liked it a lot better 'cause it wasn't quite so dusty. Although I liked the ambience of Tucson much better when it was earlier. 'cause it was much more friendly, everybody knew everybody down on Congress Street. And of course, my husband knew everybody because he was in the advertising business and he knew all the people down there.
LB: Wha-who were your first friends?
RC: Berta Wright, Maurice Grossman, uh, Ruth Brown, uh, who else? Was that uh, Ruth Turner, uh, of course Elsie Waite uh, we had uh, lots of friends.
LB: So what kind of advertising did Erni do?
RC: He advertised for the uh, for the Bank, he'd do their advertising and for Steinfeld’s, he'd do their advertising, for Levy's, he'd do their advertising, you know...that sort of thing. When they first came they were, they thought they were city slickers. Because they charged for their advertising and at that time there was no advertising agency there was none. He was the first one in Tucson. And so, they didn't want to pay for advertising, they used to get it free from, from the blueprint companies, and you know...they didn't have to pay for advertising, but they got used to it and the city grew and now there must be hundreds and hundreds of advertising agency in Tucson.
LB: Yeah.
RC: Yeah.
LB: What, um, were there any projects um, that that stuck around for a long time that he did, that, that?
RC: Yeah the symphony. Used to do the folders for the symphony the covers for the symphony and uh, all sorts of advertising.
LB: And, and Dutch Boy paint?
RC: And--I (laughing) don't know. But they, he was well known in Tucson, let's put it that way.
LB: Well, an, and how did you, how did you balance being an artist with being a mom and how did...
RC: It was no trouble, because I didn't go anywhere, I was home. And whatever I did, kids participated in too. You know, we didn't have any good sense; we had our kiln, a small kiln right in our kitchen where we fired in the kitchen. You know, with the lead glazes and all. But we didn't know any better at that time. And our kids were involved too, not the boys as much as June [her daughter], Erni used to have her painting on, on tiles and things too when she was just a little, bitty thing. So it was sort of a family project.
LB: Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't something where you were off in, in your studio...
RC: No...
LB: ...alone, it was...
RC: ...everybody was around. Yeah. I didn't have the studio at that time; I used to work out of the kitchen and out, out, right out on the patio. Until we had this uh, um, it wasn't a car-carport, it had no sides, or anything that was right outside, right outside our old kitchen. And uh, Erni decided to close it in. He closed that carport in, that one that's out there, and made it into a studio (laughter in her voice). But, I didn't use it as a studio at first, my son wanted it as his room. He didn't want to be, he got to be about thirteen, or twelve or thirteen, he didn't want to be with the little babies. 'Cause he was ten years older than my daughter and seven years older than my son and he wanted his own place.
So we fixed it up so that he could, that be his room. But then when he decided to come back into the house, we made it into a studio for me. And by that time, we had already purchased the Randall Wheel from Alfred, New York and uh, that's where it is now. That Randall Wheel is still there, that big old Randall Wheel, with the tractor seat.
LB: Wow, they must last forever.
RC: It would.
LB: Yeah. Wow.
RC: It has a big metal uh, kick wheel, which we converted to an electric wheel. We just had uh, a motor put on it that kicks it. Otherwise I would be in bad trouble because I sure couldn't kick it.
LB: Not now.
RC: Not now. You know, being ninety-seven years old, in a few weeks, I certainly couldn't kick it. I don't even know if I'm gunna be able to work on it. Though I knew I could [?] when I got out of the hospital just recently. I did get up on the wheel to see if I can still get up on there, and I was able, but I didn't try throwing. So that will have to be after I get my eye fixed.
LB: Yeah, yeah. Wh-we-when did you start doing Feelies?
RC: In the Fifties.
LB: In the Fifties.
RC: I had gone to uh, with Erni for uh, I a, uh, what was it? A sojourn in Hawaii were they were having a meeting of artists and advertisers and so on. He belonged to the, he, they had an advertising club. And so we went t-to one of tho- uh, get-togethers in Hawaii. And Erni, as usual, he was the one who was instigating everything, he discovered that they were going to give a glaze calculation course and at the University of Hawaii and that was in the Fifties. And so he said, 'Why don't you stay and take the glaze calculation course?'
And I said, 'Well, I can't we have June and Mike.' June was nine and Mike was twelve. I said, 'I can't just stay there..."
He said, 'Don't worry about it, I'll take them home, and you just stay here...' We were at the uh, Edgewater Hotel and uh, he said, 'Just stay in the hotel and uh, take the course.'
Well I make friends with uh, Chinese friend, Bernice Chang who’s also taking the course and so we became very good friends. And so, for the five weeks we were there, we worked on glaze calculation. There was no throwing, or making pots or anything, it was just glaze calculation. And I had one uh, calculated glaze that I thought had possibilities and so when I came home, I taught it to my husband. And between the two of us we came up with this Feelie glaze. And it’s been a wonderful glaze.
So I haven’t been doing very much other than that except, I did teach one uh, semester in, in the seventies in uh, Iowa. Cedar Falls, Iowa. My husband and I, my husband taught the advanced course where they did uh, slab work, 'cause he didn't throw on the wheel and I taught wheel work. And we were there for five weeks, there in, in Iowa.
LB: Wh-where else have you traveled?
RC: We've traveled all over the whole United States, because what we did, once I was making pots and they were piling up, we piled them into our yellow station wagon, plus June, we piled her in too, we'd leave the boys home, and go...h-h-he, my husband would cont-, as I said, my husband was the uh, starter of everything. He found out different galleries that he could visit and we went right on through the United States. The one we remember most, is the one in Columbus, Ohio. The uh, gallery owner was just wonderful.
She said, 'Oh, you poor children,' she called us (laughter in her voice). She, she had us, she had us use her washing machine to wash up our clothes and all that sort of thing.
Yeah.
LB: What was it like to drive cross-country? Were there Highways then?
11
RC: Oh yeah, there were highways. There were highways and uh, you're young and things don't bother you much. And we went all the way up to New York State, up, up to Rochester were we sold pots up there, too. And we got to know all the different artists and all the different potters on the way and uh, down toward Virginia and all over the United States riding around. When my husband wasn't doing his advertising. So we've had a, uh unique life.
LB: How has it been different from what you imagined...when you were younger?
RC: Well, I really didn't think I was gunna be a potter! I didn't, I'd never dream that I'd be a potter, I thought I'd be an artist. But when I tried to compete with my husband I saw that it was no use because my husband is really an artist whereas, I was a dabbler. So that was the end of the, my drawings and paintings or anything else that I wanted to do.
LB: Well, what are you proudest of, that you've done?
RC: Well, I'm proudest of my Feelies, I love them. I really do love ‘em. I think … I keep thinking well they're not mine really, I don't know, agh, my hands couldn't have made them.
LB: Really?
RC: Yeah. And when I make ‘em I always feel somebody else is making ‘em. I'm not making ‘em.
LB: Hmm. What does that feel like?
RC: It feels that somebody's really pushing me, my husband (laughter).
LB: Really?
RC: Yeah. [?] And if I made something that isn't a Feelie and it wasn't up to par, like I said, his were. I'd say, 'oh its schoolgirl stuff, it’s just like...' uh, what you call it? Uh, not schoolgirl but um...well I can't think of his name right off the l-right off the bat.
Anyway he'd say, 'Oh no, it's archaic, it's beautiful.' I'd say, 'Yeah, you're just buttering me up 'cause you want me to keep working (big laugh). But he used to like to watch me throw on the wheel and he liked my designs even though I didn't, 'cause he said they were archaic, I, I didn't call them archaic.
LB: So you had different ideas...
RC: Yeah. I wanted them to be what they are now, "Feelies."
LB: Yes.
RC: Silky beautiful things. And that's what they are now. I'm very proud of them, I don't feel that they are all mine, but-'cause, comes from someone else's hand into my hand. Uh, that's the truth. But I love ‘em, I just love, love the pots.
LB: A lot of people do. Who, who was some famous people who own your pots?
RC: Well the-a lot of them went to Head, you know they'd been buying ‘em for a long time.
LB: Yeah. And the White House.
RC: Well, you know, uh, Mrs. Mondale [Vice-President Mondale’s wife], she ha-it was it was in a show, and of course, it had won a prize and she had to take it, she wanted it to be in the White House for a while.
Uh at that time, and she invited me and uh Barbara Grygutis to a luncheon there [at the White House](laughter). I didn't want to go, I said, 'Oh, that's an expensive luncheon to go take a travel by plane and get a hotel room, but everybody shamed me into going, so Barbara and I shared a room. Barbara has become a famous artist, here in Tucson sculptor and everything else. Anyway, we shared a room there and we sat next to Andy Warhol...
LB: No!?
RC: ... at the dinner. Yeah. But we weren't impressed (smile in her voice).
LB: No?
RC: No, we weren’t the least bit impressed.
LB: So was he friendly, or?
RC: Yeah, he was friendly.
LB: Uh huh.
RC: (laughing) So that was my, my one visit to the White House.
LB: Very neat.
RC: Yeah. But then I had somebody from the uh, not the White House, what’s that uh, shop they have there?
LB: Not the White House...?
RC: And not at the White House, but you know, part of it, you know, there, there shop there, that they have. [later found out she meant the Smithsonian Institution]
LB: I don't know...
RC: Well anyway, the one in charge there, found out about my Feelies, at that time I was making Feelies. And she wanted a show of it, and there was a show, up there...
LB: In-in Washington, DC?
RC: Yeah, in Washington, DC.
LB: A solo show. [at the Smithsonian]
RC: A-uh-a show...no, no, no, it's-it's a big place. It's a, the name of it is a big place. But my, they had a big window, with all-she picked out the pots, and it was in upstairs, the first flight up, that was the second time I was in Washington. And the bathroom was up there so people had to go up there and as they went up the stairs, the first thing they saw was this great big window with all my pots in it.
LB: Mmmmm...
RC: And there was only supposed to stay for a small amount of time but it stayed for a very long time there.
LB: Wow.
RC: Yeah.
LB: Hm. Huh. Well, I-what lessons has your work taught you...about life?
RC: It (laughter in her voice) taught me that it's a long life and you just go with the flow. Ha.
LB: Yeah (laughter in her voice).
RC: That's what it taught me. There are up-good times and bad times, and you know all that sort of thing. The same as most people have, I guess. If they live long enough (laughter). It taught us, it taught me and my husband to rely on ourselves for the most part.
LB: And, and, and that means, building your own house?
RC: Building our own house, an-and doing what we want to do. My husband, he was in the advertising business and then he decided he didn't want to be in the advertising any more. He'd be in consultant and he wanted to do his artwork. And so he just quit, (laughter) and wasn't an advertising man any more, he was an artist and he was doing books, uh, children's books uh, and uh, postcards and paintings and all sorts of stuff. But he was a funny man, he would never put his uh, his paintings out on consignment. He said he didn't want them dirtying it all up and besides, he was not a banker. Anyone who
wanted his pots, my pots, or his paintings had to pay for it. He was not a banker. He was really a character but a wonderful character. Everybody, most everybody loved him, I mean especially the women. (Laughter) Yeah. But uh, we really had a very interesting life and he’s been gone now almost seventeen years. He died in 1994. Uh...
LB: Yeah.
RC: I missed him very much and I still miss him, but what was, was. But I think of him and I've got his picture there that I can scold when I feel like it.
LB: (laughing) What do you scold him about?
RC: Why he isn't there when I need him.
LB: Oh.
RC: because he, he was my, you know, my...rock!
LB: Yeah...
RC: And now, my rock was gone (laughter).
LB: Yeah...
RC: You have children, but it’s not the same as having your husband.
LB: Yeah.
RC: Whom I knew since uh, I was about thirteen years old -- twelve, thirteen years old. So, (laughter) it was a long time thing.
LB: Wow.
RC: He wasn't my boyfriend then, by any means because I, I had no use for him until I was about twenty (big laugh).
LB: But you knew him that long?
RC: Oh yeah, because he was always up and around and doing things. You know, he was just a... he was obnoxious besides (big laughs). When he was young.
LB: In what way?
RC: Well, I'd be drawing on the sidewalk with chalk, my, my version of a picture of something, He'd come over and say, ‘That's not the way to do it,’ and just go right over to it and write right over it. It was not like his business, he thought he was a better artist.
LB: Ah ha.
RC: You know, he, he was very obnoxious. H-he, you know, when we lived on the fourth floor of our apartment, it was a walk up. And he lived around the corner in a four family house that his father ha- and grandfather had build and so we were in a whole group of children. Uh, we weren't just the two of us. There was a whole gang of us.
Group of us...
LB: Was your neighborhood a group of people that had come from one country in Europe or was it just a big mix?
RC: oh [?], we had some Irish people, some Italian people, Jewish people, all kinds of people. But, ev-we were all friends so we had a lot of childhood friends. And at that time, people were out in the street, they were not in their houses, cloistered in their houses, they were, children were out in the street. Where we'd get together in groups and kibitz around and push one another around, and all that sort of thing. And my d-sister, who was older than I was, was teaching us how to dance. And I'd have a group come up to, group of us come up to dance in my bedroom. Where our Victrola was. But we didn't want him up there, because he was a nuisance. My husband was a nuisance.
So we'd lock the door, you know, he'd ring the bell, and we'd stuff the bell. What would he do, he'd go up on the roof, drop down onto the fire escape, and come in the window. That's the kind of obnoxious (laughter).
LB: (laughter in voice) He was persistent...
RC: But he was very persistent and that's how come I married him.
LB: Ah ha.
RC: Of course I was going with other boys, at that time...
LB: Mmhm...
RC: Yeah...But it was a good, good marriage.
LB: Mmhm.
RC: We were very much alike, we both wanted do what we wanted do and we did what we wanted to do (laughter). Of course I didn't do any more drawing because I coul-I knew I couldn't compete with him. He, he had a flair, people said he had a flair like Chagall or, or one of these French artists, or whatever. But whatever he did, he did loosely. Whereas, I had to do everything tightly (laughter), I had to do it meticulously.
And he didn't like to do things meticulously. So we both had our way of doing what we wanted to do. And so it-so life comes to an end at a time, and that's it. So that's the end of the story.
LB: Mkay, thank you Rose.
RC: I think I told you enough...
LB: Okay (laughing) you certainly have.