im not really happy with what theyre doing with the new avatars though, the twitter translations say that odin and alexander will only be used for the their one each astral flows, kinda boring and situational.

part of the fun of being a SMN is having fun controlling your avatar, odin and aledander are basicly just once every two hour spells.

yeah, the avatar models have been there, the animations were there too, and the effects were even there!

they didnt have to make any effects or animation changes at all, it took them this long to just tie the two avatars to smn just to use, one of them every two hours, which basicly only help when your in an endgame event that *might* require those two hours.

Hahahahahahaha. Are they telling me it took 3 years to add 2 new avatars that can only use Astral Flow? The models where there 4 years ago, so I guess all that work was to make the 2 abilities.

That's...what I said. Unless there's something big in the new gear / synergy that increases duration of astral flow..I can see alexander being great. But..what about Odin on things like limbus? I don't think it should of been done over Astral flow, maybe on a new mini-2hr JA or something. BUT can't complain too much we'll just have to see how this plays out.

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Sorry, I didn't know anything in a Squeenix game can be considered common knowledge. :)

so.... suddenly i'm seing a reason to want to get the full set of ebur gear for smn. Hopefull increased synergy skill will allow for etching any type of slot on this gear. That way i can try for a total of Astral flow recast -15 so i can use them more often. I wonder if you can keep them out indefinitely after summoning them as long as they are not defeated or released.

Also, I wonder if even these avatars will have their own, very unique favors that can be used with them out. regain on Odin and something like a strong MDB on Alexander could be useful.

And even still. I wonder if they will have decent melee damage on their own and cast spells or use abilities in addition to attacking without using the bloodpact command... lots of things in this update will have to be seen to be understood it seems.

edit: OH! I also hope a few jobs get a useful item or two from the avatar battles obtaining these two will require. I'd love a new light based attachment for my pup ripped out of alexander's motherboard.

I'm still pondering the mechanics of how these Avatars might work. According to the description it says both Perfect Defense and Zantetsuken are more effective depending on remaining MP. Yet if they are active during Astral Flow, you could have max MP the whole duration. Perhaps this is implying that Alexander and Odin have other abilities?

Edit: Thinking about it differently, apparently the strength of the two abilities depends on when you use it. Such as if you use them while your MP is full they're more powerful, but if you use them while most of your MP is already gone they are weaker. That'll make when to use them a bit more strategic. Perhaps they won't be as effective as a last ditch effort to save yourself.

While it is a letdown, and it doesn't fix Summoner, there's no doubt that at the very least, Perfect Defense will see a ton of use. It's basically an AoE version of PLD's 2 hour, but better. Like someone said, you could keep an entire DD party up to attack as much as they want during Citadel Buster. A rotation of SMNs using this could be key to some of the most difficult fights in the game, like Pandemonium Warden, etc.

Like SE said, they're going to focus now on making jobs more capable at endgame. This is obvious of this, and just like JingWoo stated Alexander might see a lot of use in endgame events. Any further hope of SMN getting adjustments so that it fits into a party better is probably not going to happen at this point.

yeah, the avatar models have been there, the animations were there too, and the effects were even there!

they didnt have to make any effects or animation changes at all, it took them this long to just tie the two avatars to smn just to use, one of them every two hours, which basicly only help when your in an endgame event that *might* require those two hours.

The way it sounds makes me think that they initially had other avatars in mind and were working with them (when they had suggested that they'd be avatars that don't focus on using abilities like the current avatars do), but then that didn't work in one way or another and then had to scrap them.

yeah, the avatar models have been there, the animations were there too, and the effects were even there!

they didnt have to make any effects or animation changes at all, it took them this long to just tie the two avatars to smn just to use, one of them every two hours, which basicly only help when your in an endgame event that *might* require those two hours.

The way it sounds makes me think that they initially had other avatars in mind and were working with them (when they had suggested that they'd be avatars that don't focus on using abilities like the current avatars do), but then that didn't work in one way or another and then had to scrap them.

Sadly, I think this is exactly what SE meant. Alexander and Odin won't have their own bloodpacts, they won't be used in general combat, so effectively, we won't be using them like the rest of our avatars.

They could end up acting like most mob's avatars do (except in Dynamis) where when they use Astral Flow their summon appears just to use their special ability and disappear. Based on the wording (which isn't very reliable anyway) of the notes, the part about how Astral Flow will end upon the Avatar's release, I'm thinking the situation where the avatar appears only momentarily to do the move.

This would be akin to giving us, in essence, two more 2hours. If you take it like invincible, benediction, or those other 'instant' 2hours, it appears to make some sense then. Think of Alexander being a party wide Invincible or perhaps Odin as being like a Majin Gakure (of course this is just an analogy).

The only case in which it might not be this is, if the avatar releases itself or we still release it. If we don't, then we can go on to say that perhaps there is something else they do, otherwise it can be assumed that they have one move, it is instant, and Astral Flow ends immediately upon their disappearance.

To me Alexander is more useful, as mentioned above, it can be strategically used with several summoners to make pretty good extensions of defense, which can be helpful in taking down high damaging NMs.

Odin seems more like an OH SHI- use, such as in a Dynamis zone where there are accidental links that might cause a wipe, where Odin can come in and take out a few of them to give a fighting chance.

Either way, I'm stoked. This is bringing XI back for me, no doubt at all. Think about it guys. We're finally getting the avatars we wanted for so long. And for me at least, that's the real joy: shiny new toys.

That said, how can anyone really have an opinion on the ability? We really don't know how Odin or Alex will work exactly. If perfect defense is just a 50% damage reduction for a couple minutes, then I'll be underwhelmed. If it can reach 100%, then we're in for a treat.

Odin is going to be really interesting. I don't want them to fudge it up like they did with Diabolos' 2hr (random percentage?) and the initial release of the merit pacts.

Simply put, make it POWERFUL and ACCURATE. It's our 2 hr ability, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be at the top of the spike dmg chain. Summoner has historically been known for the "big shot," make this it! If, against NMs, it's even somewhat comparable to the other avatars AF abilities, then I will be sorely disappointed.

"Either way, I'm stoked. This is bringing XI back for me, no doubt at all. Think about it guys. We're finally getting the avatars we wanted for so long. And for me at least, that's the real joy: shiny new toys.

That said, how can anyone really have an opinion on the ability? We really don't know how Odin or Alex will work exactly. If perfect defense is just a 50% damage reduction for a couple minutes, then I'll be underwhelmed. If it can reach 100%, then we're in for a treat.

Odin is going to be really interesting. I don't want them to fudge it up like they did with Diabolos' 2hr (random percentage?) and the initial release of the merit pacts.

Simply put, make it POWERFUL and ACCURATE. It's our 2 hr ability, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be at the top of the spike dmg chain. Summoner has historically been known for the "big shot," make this it! If, against NMs, it's even somewhat comparable to the other avatars AF abilities, then I will be sorely disappointed. "

well im glad you can be so positive about it, i dont see it as finally getting the avatars we've been wanting.

someone said that it seems SE had other ideas they were working as far as new avatars but just couldnt get it right, so they just eventually settled with what were getting, well i was thinking the exact same thing. we get two new 2hours, which i dont see Odins being used very often at all, at least alexander will be seen once in a while for major endgame.

OK yeah so definitely a bit of a let down, these are not exactly "new avatars." But the bright side of things is that AF is mostly useless for damage at 75, just a way of irking out some extra MP in a pinch. This will effectively give us two different (useful) two hour abilities, something no other job has. And I am willing to bet that the effects will be pretty **** good. I just better not have to beat Einherjar to get it.

Every avatar save Carbuncle we've got we had to fight to get, so it is pretty much a sure thing we'll be fighting these two. I'm certainly hoping, though, that it is just a fight that can be completed by a party and that getting the quests to start the fights won't be too difficult either.

It appears that the two avatars control themselves when they appear, using their special right away. A few things remain interesting to me. The first is the two specials don't consume any MP, so after you use them you can keep fighting. The summoner still apparantly releases the avatars (at least for Odin, the summoner was hidden behind Alexander). Lastly, at least Odin doesn't fight back when attacked, as shown by the imp hitting him but he didn't flinch until he was released.

I like the direction they took with Alex and Odin. Like others have said, it may be good enough to the point where SMN now has 2 primary 2hrs instead of just 1.

Though my concerns also echo those of others: - How effective will the abilities be (someone mentioned using Perfect Defense with Dynamis Lord) - Will you need to complete ToAU and Einhenjar to be able to flag the quests.

While it is nice to be the job with the most useful 2 hours, the fact that you can only use one of them each 2 hours is as I've always said, too restrictive.

That is really how I view most updates of most things. Amount of seconds per hour I'll get any benefit from it. These give me about half a second per hour of action (though somewhat longer duration on the result of the buff). And a big reason behind why I tend to complain often.

The way I see it is this is SE's first showing of how they are trying to update jobs now being more endgame inclined. While our effectiveness as SMNs for most endgame things up at this point has been... moderate, if these 2hrs prove to be very powerful, it will ensure that whatever event we might do we may be asked to go along for just this purpose. It might feel like we're used for just one thing then, but think about most jobs, they're used for one thing. It might be a hard pill to swallow for SMNs who are used to being able to at least do everything to a degree, but I will be happy to know if an LS asks me to come along even if I'm only there for Alexander when the boss comes around.

While it is nice to be the job with the most useful 2 hours, the fact that you can only use one of them each 2 hours is as I've always said, too restrictive.

That is really how I view most updates of most things. Amount of seconds per hour I'll get any benefit from it. These give me about half a second per hour of action (though somewhat longer duration on the result of the buff). And a big reason behind why I tend to complain often.

I agree that these 2 new avatars do sound a bit restrictive. The potency of these 2 hours will have to be extremely strong to justify confining them to Astral Flow only. Honestly, I don't understand why we can't summon the 2 of them normally and have their 2 hours be just that, 2 hours. I know the development team mentioned wanting to maintain the strong image of the two avatars, but I think that could still have been achieved without making them Astral Flow only. Again, I'm withholding judgment until I see how strong they are.

I don't however agree with the "amount of seconds per hour I'll get any benefit from it." There are a few 2 hours in the game, Chainspell stun comes to mind, that are extremely powerful. You may not use it in your every day activities but it can be in high demand on certain difficult mobs. The ability to stun lock a monster for a minute is very useful. If any job could effectively do that, it would get invited to various fights on that merit alone.

You are correct in that a 2-hour is not going to effectively fix any problems a job may have because of its limited use. It can however make a job more attractive in certain situations. And in the case of chainspell, those situations aren't infrequent. Let's wait and see what they give us this time . . .

I don't however agree with the "amount of seconds per hour I'll get any benefit from it." There are a few 2 hours in the game, Chainspell stun comes to mind, that are extremely powerful. You may not use it in your every day activities but it can be in high demand on certain difficult mobs. The ability to stun lock a monster for a minute is very useful. If any job could effectively do that, it would get invited to various fights on that merit alone.

Yes, but assume RDM didn't have convert, refresh, gravity, phalanx etc and were just considered poor healers... would SE adding chainspell 6 years into the game be something you'd cheer for, or would you have rather had convert or gravity added as something you could use more often?

I like PLAYING the game, so additions like "This 2 hour will make people want you to climb up all the way to the top of delfkuts tower, then 2 hour, and watch as the melee zerg the boss down" feel boring and pointless.

I'd honestly rather have job specific emotions than these new avatars from the view of what fun it will bring me per hour.

Since they've also said there's definitely going to be new Bloodpacts for existing avatars, naturally I cannot help but ponder what they can do at this point. We've already got 70 pacts and merit pacts for our current highest tier physical and magical damage, while most of the highest wards are on Carbuncle, Fenrir, and Diabolos. Any thoughts/wishes about where they might go from here?

Yes, but assume RDM didn't have convert, refresh, gravity, phalanx etc and were just considered poor healers... would SE adding chainspell 6 years into the game be something you'd cheer for, or would you have rather had convert or gravity added as something you could use more often?

I like PLAYING the game, so additions like "This 2 hour will make people want you to climb up all the way to the top of delfkuts tower, then 2 hour, and watch as the melee zerg the boss down" feel boring and pointless.

I'd honestly rather have job specific emotions than these new avatars from the view of what fun it will bring me per hour.

That is an entirely different point you are arguing here then what you mentioned in the post I responded to. In fact, I conceded in my response that a 2 hour, no matter how awesome it is, cannot fix a job that is broken.

And unless benefit = fun in your usage, that is also a different matter. I was merely commenting that a 2hr can be incredibly beneficial, even though it will not get much use per hour of game play. That is the only point I was making.

Because of their nature as being only 2hr usable, I would certainly cry foul if they made it a difficult fight or require being at or near the end of the ToAU storyline just for their use. Of course I would wish for something more fun, like how unlocking the job itself was fun by finding all the weather. Though this is SE we're talking about...

They're probably going to make Odin's Pact a Rare/Ex .5% drop from Odin in Einherjar, and Alexander requiring beating ToAU, then fighting him again in a much more difficult mode.

I still have the small amount of hope that Astral Flow will last longer than 3 minutes if you have these avatars out. I can't find it anywhere, but I remember reading that Astral Flow would only lose its effect after you release either Alexander or Odin if it became active when you summoned them.

Here's to hoping...!

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SMN90 - Valefor

MDenham wrote:

Mistress Tailmon wrote:

Anime does cover a very large audience and a majority of our MMORG's do have anime influences

Hahahahahahaha. Are they telling me it took 3 years to add 2 new avatars that can only use Astral Flow? The models where there 4 years ago, so I guess all that work was to make the 2 abilities.

A question: Is this (Odin & Alexander) what they've been working on and putting off time after time for a full year?

It seems strange because Odin & Alexander are being implemented in a very limited form (probably for story purposes since they are awake, not sleeping). It doesn't seem to jive with some of the interviews from 2009 that referenced the avatars unless there is a separate set in development that they are keeping quiet (like Caitsith, Atomos).

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The way it sounds makes me think that they initially had other avatars in mind and were working with them (when they had suggested that they'd be avatars that don't focus on using abilities like the current avatars do), but then that didn't work in one way or another and then had to scrap them.

I'm wondering if they're still working on it. Or it could be someone's endless brainstorming project, an endless work in progress. Still, SMN needs some real avatars to make up for waiting 5 years, not "Okay, Zantetsuken! Now ***** you guys, I'm going home. Hi ho, Sleipnir!".

It would be nice if they released a real expansion with real new lands (geographic lands, not parallel dimensions filled with giant crabs), and implement some new avatars through there (Magus Sisters, Asura, Kujata would be the most interesting, though Remora would be a humorous choice).

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================================================= Somewhere out there, there is a road with 2 signs on it. One says "No Trespassing". The sign right next to it says "FREE KITTENS". =================================================

It seems strange because Odin & Alexander are being implemented in a very limited form (probably for story purposes since they are awake, not sleeping). It doesn't seem to jive with some of the interviews from 2009 that referenced the avatars unless there is a separate set in development that they are keeping quiet (like Caitsith, Atomos).

The ironic part is that Alexander as a boss works exactly like a none movable avatar... Kind of like SE thought Alexander could replace carbuncle and decided that they didn't want us to stop using carby so they butchered Alex instead.