201 Comments

What an ignorant "reaction" emanating from the bollocks as opposed to any other part of the anatomy let alone anything from the 'higher' brain. If a coalition of Muslim countries invaded The British Isles and proceeded to burn The King James' Bible, then I too might join every other red blooded Englishman in wishing the cruel, hateful invader ill - with extreme prejudice, irrespective of whether I really believed in 'The Bible' or not !!!

So, with reference to Afghanistan - "Graveyard of Empires" but alas also an early grave for so many of its long suffering people, I repost the following :

a) Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic country, made up of Aimaks, Baluchis, Hazaras, Kazahks, Kirghis, Pamiris, Tajhiks, Turkmen, Uzbeks & at ~42% of the total population, the largest single group, the Pashtuns/Pukhtoons.

b) The historical Pashtun homeland is divided in two by the Afghan/Pakistan border. This porous "border" is in effect the old "Durand Line", the de facto western territorial limit of the British Empire in the Indian subcontinent. The Pashtuns have NEVER recognised this arbitrary line on someone else's map & no external power or authority has ever been able to define it, let alone patrol or police it.

c) Pashtun society is extremely conservative, deeply traditional, unrelentingly patriarchal & tribal. The Women lead difficult lives far removed from any "Liberal Western Norms". A Pashtun is a member of a family group, a sub-clan,a clan & then a tribe. At over 45 million people globally, they are the world's largest tribally affiliated ethnic group.

e) The phrase "Revenge is a dish best served cold", is the English approximation & appropriation of the Pashtun original. Another Pashtun dictum is: "Me against my brothers; me & my brothers against my cousins; me, my brothers & my cousins against the world". Pashtun males are considered adult at 13 years of age & are honour bound to defend "Zan, Zhar, Zamin" - Women, Wealth & Land. Notions of loyalty and duty to kith & kin, honour, respect, shame, "not losing face" & "dying on one's feet rather than living on one's knees" are central to their world view & modus vivendi.

f) The word "Taliban" translates as "Students", as they were originally recruited, equipped & organised with the enthusiastic help, encouragement & funding of the Saudis, ISI, MI6 & CIA from the Madrasas (religious schools) in the numerous Pashtun refugee camps, during & after the war to oust the Soviet armed forces & the devastating civil war that followed it. Their grandfathers & fathers were then of course, known & eulogised as the "Mujahideen". The word "Taliban" is now nothing other than a obfuscatory, propagandist & subversive "meme" for what is in actuality, under various names & guises - The Pashtun National Resistance Movement.

g) The peoples of present day Afghanistan, whether Pashtun or otherwise, are the time served world champions of guerilla warfare & insurgency. No army or empire has ever been able to totally defeat & dominate them. (Alexander the Great's) Greek, Scythian, Hepthalite, Bactrian, Persian, Mongol, Arab, Turkic, British & Russian armies have all been severely mauled & bloodied at some time or other & have had to retreat, assimilate, pay tribute to or come to an accommodation with, these fierce & warlike peoples.

h) The Americans, despite their massive military superiority, are the latest to learn these same painful lessons. This time however, the whole world is (quite intentionally?) further driven towards a "Clash of Civilisations", as advocated by Samuel Huntington, Benny Morris, William Safire, Thomas Friedman, Charles Krauthammer, Donald, Robert & Fred Kagan, Norman & John Podhoretz, Richard & Daniel Pipes, Irving & Bill Kristol, Richards Perle & Haas, Pauls Bremer & Wolfowitz, etc.

i) This PNAC/NeoCon ambition, aspiration & world view stimulates and is mirrored by (as predicted by the Probability Gamers in Herzliya & Langley!) the grand "End Time" schematic of a few thousand Jihadis worldwide, whose fanaticism & fury ; rage & resistance is fuelled, stoked & provoked by the Scientific Uber-Violence & Imperial Jackboot of the "Coalition of the Complicit", under the aegis & "Blood Spattered Banner of the Usurped States of Amnesiacs".

j) What the Warmongering US "National Security"/Military/Industrial/Corporate/Banking cliques did NOT seem to know of the Buddhist Vietnamese, in that they were a fiercely independent people, who had fought the Mongol, Khmer, Chinese, Japanese & French Imperiums before they defeated the USA - so do they NOW seem NOT to know of the Muslim Afghans.

However, perhaps an Unending War is just what is Really Wanted by the Dark Forces of the Bankster-U$/MIC Nexus. After all 9/!! was the declared raison d'etre for the Illegal & Immoral War on Afghanistan but as that attack had nothing to do with Afghans or Afghanistan, then ... ?

Of course if the above is all too much Steve, then going back to basics : this is your arse, (x) and this is your elbow |L ...

So, Stephen re. 'KJR', should the 'Know-nothing Jackasses Repent' ? & IF 'nowt else', I strongly urge you meditate upon these lyrics - poetry containing a book of pure prose and some very timely advice :

A lot of this post WWII American debacle gets back to Joseph McCarthy, and his purging of every "communist sympathizer" (read educated intellectual) from the State Department. They simply put the simple-minded in charge of foreign policy, and that's been the predominant situation ever since.

Of course, the reality is now more premeditatedly sinister than this implies.

You're welcome and I have just also added the 'Bill Moyers' link above.

This is the full length 90 min. version of Bill Moyer's 1987 scathing critique of the criminal subterfuge carried out by the 'Executive Branch of the United States Government.'

Host Bill Moyers exposes the inner workings of the secret government. Though originally broadcast in 1987, it is even more relevant today. Interviews with respected, top military, intelligence, and government insiders reveal both the history and secret objectives.

If a coalition of Muslim countries invaded The British Isles and proceeded to burn The King James' Bible would you kill you fellow red blooded Englishman the way they butcher one another in Afghanistan?

Hey dumb ass, the korans (lower case on purpose) where being used by taliban prisoners to pass information from one to another in the base prison. that's why they were burned. and in case you don't remember 9/11 planning and execution came out of taliban controlled Afganistan, so the U.S. has every right to kill and destroy taliban and their supporters.

How about we leave it at : Do the natural born natives have anything to do with The U$er's Empire or 9/!! and do they have "every right to kill and destroy" those who'd come from afar to invade & oppress ; damage & destroy ; murder & maim, them - in their own land !!!

SKJR : Are you an ex-soldier ? Consider also : If 'they' were 'here' then you, me and we - may "lie to their face & kill 'em in a <3beat" too - budhum --- IF we felt threatened, besmirched or offended ... let alone invaded, blown-up and bombed or just ol' fashioned, killed and murdered !!!

We will cross that bridge when we come to it. As a matter of fact, that happened when this country was in its infancy. I doubt that that will happen today because there is a vast army of armed citizens that wouldn't let that happen.

But 'you & yours' have crossed the bridge to (inter alia!) Afghanistan "As a matter of fact" and guess what ... the locals are restive, resisting and revolting, unsurprisingly really - if you just think about it for a moment !!l

I'm not talking about just the history of Islam, I'm talking about world history and specifically the Christian colonization of Africa, Asia and South America. Learn a little something and get off your judgmental high horse.

I think the Obama policy that his adversaries most object to is the fact that he is biracial. There certainly is a notion abroad that Obama's policies are extremely liberal, but I can't see any empirical evidence for that. In contrast LBJs domestic policies were considerably more liberal than are Obama's, though we in the movement opposed LBJ rightly because of his foreign policy.

One of the things I've noticed about e-mail interchanges, not just on this forum, but all e-mail interchanges, is that people seem to feel much freer about really grossly insulting each other than is the case when the interact physically. That to me is one of the major reasons why physical occupations are so important. I met many people at various occupations who had profound disagreements with each other, but despite that I have never seen people at an occupation personally insult each other in ways that are commonplace on this and most other forums.

Unlike people driving around in a couple tons of metal and experiencing road rage and then causing a horrible wreck because they were feeling a sense of false power and invulnerability.

People venting on the internet is healthy ( or can be ). It allows the release of pent up stress and anger in a safe environment. Allows an individual to release stress and then begin to interact from a place of tension released calm. This is where people can do the needed venting prior to being ready to listen and interact productively.

Doing this face to face or in a car will more often than not lead to tragedy.

I actually think something very different goes on at an occupation. I met several people, for example, who had the phase "everybody matters" tatooed on their forearms. I would watch these folks get into conversations that became adversarial and start to escalate into real hostility when they would look down at their arm and the look up at the person with whom they were beginning to argue and say something as simple as "I love you brother." It didn't stop the disagreement, but it deflected it from personal recriminations and from viewing the person with whom you are disagreeing as bad or somehow an inferior being and stay focussed on the notion that it was not the person who was bad but rather the ideas that you disagreed with.

There were quite a few unstable people at the occupations, especially when word went around in the homeless community that the encampments were safe places to stay with good food. The de-escalation working groups were really marvelous and innovative in de-escalating potential violence. We need to focus our rage at an unjust system, not on individuals and certainly not at individuals who are just as much victims of that system as are we, which is to say nearly everyone that most people are likely to encounter in a lifetime. How many of us will actually personally encounter a 1%er in our lifetime? Most of the people we interact with, especially on a forum like this are people just like us, are victims of an unjust system just like us. It doesn't move the movement one step forward by venting our anger on each other. Mostly what it does is make disagreements, no matter how profound, appear much larger than they actually are.

I'm not suggesting that disagreements are not real or that they should not be discussed. Quite the contrary. But what I am suggesting is that we need to constantly remind each other that everybody matters. That, after all, is why we participate in a forum like this. And if everybody matters that means that people with whom we disagree on this forum matter and we need to focus on a discussion of ideas and not on what we speculate about the age, gender, personal experience, education or intelligence of the people who matter (everyone) whose ideas we happen to disagree with.

I don't think road rage or domestic violence are alleviated by "venting." If anything it seems to me that quite the opposite is the case. Anger and rage begats anger and rage.

Despite my years as a psychiatric social worker, I had no formal training in the field. Only empathy for deeply disturbed and recently incarcerated people. I'm no expert in psychology but it does seem to me that it's fairly simple ABC that rage is like an infantile temper tantrum brought on by feelings that we are unloved and perhaps unloveable. That's why I think it was so effective in the encampments when people expressed their love for each other in the midst of a disagreement. We don't really talk about it enough, at least not on this forum (hardly at all), but it seems to me that what we all really want is a more loving society, more loving relationships. That was really clear at the encampments and not at all nearly so clear on this forum.

I really believe that people who feel genuinely loved and respected don't feel rage or the need for rage.

No, but I don't think I did and if I did I certainly wouldn't feel better about it. I wasn't directing an objective comment about insults toward anyone, much less anyone in particular.

There is so much hate in the world and we are so much a part of the world that that hate even infects our discourse here. I don't claim to be an expert at this and I'm as guilty as the next person. I spent 5 years of my life as a psychiatric social worker, but I never saw anything as effective as the de-escalation teams at the occupations. I think these are models that we have to draw on and perhaps when we see people beginning to insult each other on this forum it would make sense to intervene about that regardless of how we feel about the ideas under discussion. In fact it might make sense to say nothing regarding the ideas under discussion, regardless of how we feel about them and just intervene to de-escalate insults. I may be peculiar about this, but I've never felt at all good about personal insults whether I was the victim of those insults or the person making them.

One of the things that it is difficult to determine from e-mail messages, without benefit of body language is whether a comment is meant sincerely or with a sense of irony. If it is the latter, clearly insult was intended, but it's often hard to know if that was the case when you can't actually see someone or hear the inflection in their voice.

A place to stop thinking of someone as a retarded, uneducated, inexperienced asshole is to not call anyone anything like that, no matter what you might think.

Just look at how language has changed because of feminism. Of course it's not universal, but the less women were called chicks or bitches to their faces the less one heard that kind of language in a men's locker room. In dehumanizing anyone, including our worst adversaries, we dehumanize ourselves. We get back the respect that we extend to others. I don't claim to be a saint about this. I've said lots of things to people that I've regretted, often immediately, but I can't say insulting anyone personally ever made me feel better for "venting."
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No, but I don't think I did and if I did I certainly wouldn't feel better about it. I wasn't directing an objective comment about insults toward anyone, much less anyone in particular.

There is so much hate in the world and we are so much a part of the world that that hate even infects our discourse here. I don't claim to be an expert at this and I'm as guilty as the next person. I spent 5 years of my life as a psychiatric social worker, but I never saw anything as effective as the de-escalation teams at the occupations. I think these are models that we have to draw on and perhaps when we see people beginning to insult each other on this forum it would make sense to intervene about that regardless of how we feel about the ideas under discussion. In fact it might make sense to say nothing regarding the ideas under discussion, regardless of how we feel about them and just intervene to de-escalate insults. I may be peculiar about this, but I've never felt at all good about personal insults whether I was the victim of those insults or the person making them.

A place to stop thinking of someone as a retarded, uneducated, inexperienced asshole is to not call anyone anything like that, no matter what you might think.

Just look at how language has changed because of feminism. Of course it's not universal, but the less women were called chicks or bitches to their faces the less one heard that kind of language in a men's locker room. In dehumanizing anyone, including our worst adversaries, we dehumanize ourselves. We get back the respect that we extend to others. I don't claim to be a saint about this. I've said lots of things to people that I've regretted, often immediately, but I can't say insulting anyone personally ever made me feel better for "venting."

See that is exactly what is wrong with many government offices/institutions.
5 years in the field as a psychiatric social worker and you were not qualified.

This is what is wrong with many aspects of society.

1 points by RedJazz43 (2115) 6 minutes ago

I don't think road rage or domestic violence are alleviated by "venting." If anything it seems to me that quite the opposite is the case. Anger and rage begats anger and rage.

Despite my years as a psychiatric social worker, I had no formal training in the field. Only empathy for deeply disturbed and recently incarcerated people. I'm no expert in psychology but it does seem to me that it's fairly simple ABC that rage is like an infantile temper tantrum brought on by feelings that we are unloved and perhaps unloveable. That's why I think it was so effective in the encampments when people expressed their love for each other in the midst of a disagreement. We don't really talk about it enough, at least not on this forum (hardly at all), but it seems to me that what we all really want is a more loving society, more loving relationships. That was really clear at the encampments and not at all nearly so clear on this forum.

I really believe that people who feel genuinely loved and respected don't feel rage or the need for rage.
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Qualifications for dealing with often violent psychotics on a daily basis was not especially based on book learning. It really did have to do with empathy and many people with graduate degrees were less qualified for the work than were people who just got their GEDs. It was a privatized agancy, not a govt agency. Indeed, when I was hired I was told that the whole purpose of the agency was to break the power of AFSCME in state govt.

There you go with your pretentious self, making my case for me. keep going, with the silliness you write, I won't even have to point out your love for your licence to be snooty. My brother's clients have no qualms about his lack of education because he shows up every day and does not have a sense of entitlement.

All I know is that my high school degree toting brother is one of the best family counselors in the Yuma area, and he did not need to go in debt to secure a counseling job. As to medical professionals, I wouldn't know how good their services are, never needed to use them. That is a middle class luxury. But i bet you that that nurse pimping her associates could do the procedure, especially if she had seen it done many times before.

Ok, education Nazi, Under that logic, non of you should have a political opinion until you all have political degrees. Comments like yours, makes me not want to enter the middle class at all. It seems to be housed with pretentious edumacation fiends and snobs. I get the impression that today's princes and nobles are the ones snubbing their noses at the ill educated. No disrespect to you personally, just reacting to you reaction.

Wow so that's what it takes. Being humble and wanting to do good. Huh. Who knew? Well then... everybody schools out ( should make you happy hey human6? ). Just remember to be humble and have a good attitude everybody.

1 points by JesseHeffran (2141) from Phoenix, AZ 0 minutes ago

There you go with your pretentious self, making my case for me. keep going, with the silliness you write, I won't even have to point out your love for your licence to be snooty. My brother's clients have no qualms about his lack of education because he shows up every day and does not have a sense of entitlement.
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Sure sure. Wonder what his clients feel about that. No psychology education at all? Well it's not like it's Brain surgery. I mean He's only dealing with the software. Right? I mean how difficult could that be?

1 points by JesseHeffran (2141) from Phoenix, AZ 2 minutes ago

All I know is that my high school degree toting brother is one of the best family counselors in the Yuma area, and he did not need to go in debt to secure a counseling job. As to medical professionals, I wouldn't know how good their services are, never needed to use them. That is a middle class luxury. But i bet you that nurse pimping her associates could do the procedure, especially if she had seen it done many times before.
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Ok, education Nazi, Under that logic, non of you should have a political opinion until you all have political degrees. Comments like yours, makes me not want to enter the middle class at all. It seems to be housed with pretentious edumacation fiends and snobs. I get the impression that today's princes and nobles are the ones snubbing their noses at the ill educated. No disrespect to you personally, just reacting to you reaction.
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It should be OK for the following example.

Hey we have an opening. Is there a warm body somewhere? No? Well get on it we have an appendectomy that needs doing before it pops. Really no one standing around outside? Well perhaps we can get one of the nurses to do it. What do you mean not qualified I know for a fact that Joe has been in the operating theater at least tree or four times, He's got to have picked up some knowledge by now. Tell him to scrub in, there isn't anyone out on the street. Lets go lets go chop chop.

Oopps....... sorry bad comparison.

Because many Nurses have had a medical education pertaining to the position they fill.

Chances are Obama wouldn't be in the situation he is now in if the economy was better.

However, it isn't even though the news media boasts that it is. It may not be his fault but looking back, he made comments about "change" - he also made reference to Bush expanding the debt and made comments about wanting gasoline prices to be at least $5.00 a gallon.

If he kept his mouth shut, stopped making promises it would have given him room to make comments that wouldn't turn people against him.

He claims that we are producing more oil in this country now then we ever were - that's not true.

He claims that gasoline prices are high because of the Iran conflict - that may be true but if we were allowed to drill for more oil here it may not have been the case.

His speeches are scholarly but they are full of hot air. He just doesn't know how to run the country. I think a big part of the problem is the people whom he has under him giving him "stupid advice".

Your comments seem to me to be both vengeful and rooted in the very narrow frame of the conservative two party binary. Just leaving aside what a radical, social democratic or laborite President would do in the present situation even a mere "progressive" (which Obama clearly is not) would have dusted off and reinstituted the WPA, the PWA, the CCC and the NYA. There would presently be a comprehensive program to rebuild the rail infrastructure of the nation along with a program to repair the nations bridges, house the homeless and provide free public education for everyone from pre-K through graduate school as well as a concerted effort to pass the Employee Free Choice Act, repeal the remaining clauses of the Taft Hartley law and extend considerably more freedom of action to labor organizers. Of course a real social democratic or laborite administration would go considerably beyond such paltry efforts.

One of the things that the government cannot do is "create jobs". That is the job of private orginizations.

The government has its hand in everything and as a result can do nothing right.

Start with protecting the country. Move on to taking care of issues dealing with intrastate commerece.

Let the states run the states as they are supposed to. School, bridges, infrastructure are all "states issues" and the government can provide funds for them to make necessary repairs if that is what they want.

You see, our federal government is "reacitve" instead of being "proactive.

That's why this country is in the mess we are in today.

What do you think is going to happen to our electrical supply in 10 years when we have 50% of the vehicles on the road using electricity?

There will be "brownouts" across the country because we won't be able to keep up with demand.

So, again, it goes back to the people of this country getting 'engaged" with our representatives "forcing" them to go in the right direction and possibly educating them.

wrong.. the government can pass laws that force companies that operate in america using american money to create jobs... if the laws were tuned to making operating out of the country an astronomical expense .. the companies would create jobs.. dont say government cant create jobs.. it has done a great job at destroying them with the deregulation, free trade,bailouts without requirements of keeping jobs , bull shit and it can be reversed by the government.

The New Deal (hardly a social democratic or laborite regime) created tens of thousands and perhaps millions of jobs through the WPA, the PWA, the CCC, the NYA and other New Deal agencies, so it's simply not factually or historically correct that the state cannot create jobs. It happens all the time and has since the emergence of the state as a human institution thousands of years ago. The pyramids, after all, were nothing but a giant public works project. And none of this has anything at all to do with any notion of socialism. No one after all would accuse Egypt's pharoh of being a socialist.

Indeed, if anything it is reasonable for people to look to the state as the employer of last resort when all else fails. I know that reactionaries want to privatize and comodify literally everything, but was are public school teachers and postal employees after all but state employees. For over 100 years both the public school system and the post office have been considered appropriate institutions of the state and its employees state employees.

The world (and not just our nation) is in crisis because capitalism as a world system is in crisis. That crisis began with the world depression of 1929 and was effectively put off by World War II and the Cold War that followed, but with the collapse of world Stalinism that crisis has come back to haunt the world with a vengence.

Very impressive post. Now let me simplify it for you.
Those people are barbaric savages that profess a gutter religion. Fuck them and their entire shithole.
It's time to leave that cess pool to the scum. Let them de humanize women and control every aspect of their shitty little lives. They aren't worth considering as humans.

"b@ckinbad" : That's out in black and white now, so hear this half-wit, "I don't support Anything Of The Sort" !! With regard to you and your sad life, maybe you should really "ask yourself" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc ?

PS. GypsyKing isn't a bigot. If anything, its those priests who were molesting young boys and the ultra-radical televangelists that are the bigots. They are some of the best reasons for ending religion that I have ever seen. They make their own case with their hypocrisy and blind hatred towards others, all in the name of "God."

If the church had any balls it would eradicate these people and oust them as "phonies." It is the blind acceptance of these fringe and in some cases criminal elements that are going to keep driving people away from religion. Who wants to go to a church where young boys are raped, or people are instructed to hate Muslims and gay people? Back in the 50s "white" churches also used scripture to preach hatred for people of color... I don't get it. Why do people let this hate guide their lives?

The general in charge of the brigade should be turned over to the Afghans for justice, which would be the end of it. And it would let the other generals know the price of making the President apologize.

Americans are killed in Afghanistan because they are there in a military capacity. The burning of Korans is nothing but a specific manifestation of an otherwise imperial adventure. The sun never sets on the American empire. Obama can apologize all he wants but the only real apology that would be at all meaningful or effective from the Commander and Chief of the American empire would be to seriously begin to dismantle that empire, close all American military bases on all foreign soil everywhere and dismantle the entire American nuclear arsenal.

As the United States is the only power ever to have actually used nuclear weapons in war, it doesn't exactly strike me as a power that can be depended upon to either use nuclear power "responsibly" or to make responsible judgements about the way other sovereign nations chose to develop their own nuclear capacity.

I don't give a dam if were there because we are there in a "military capacity"

The fact of the matter is we are there and we should show no "disrespect" for our troops like the Obimination has.

Once the Obimination is out of office you are going to see drastic changes in our country - none like you have ever seen before - and it isn't going to be "downgrading our armed forces - it will be building them up.

I don't know who "we" is. Clearly part of the point of the whole 99% slogan is that the representative institutions of the American state are not particularly representative of the vast majority, but if that is true of domestic policies it is more than true of foreign policy. Because of the evolution of what is called a bipartisan foreign policy of all aspects of American policy, foreign and military policy is the least subject to popular influence because both major parties agree almost completely on its essentials.

I don't see how an extension of the American empire, already the greatest and most rapacious empire in world history can be in any way conducive to world peace, democracy at home or abroad or human betterment in any sense.

People join the military nowadays because they have very few options than to do otherwise. I personally know two people who are professed pacifists who are denying this and joining the military to avail themselves of educational benefits on the back end (that is, assuming that they live to see it).

But demanding an end to the American empire is not a denial of support to people who are in the military. If anything it is just the opposite as if such a policy were adopted it would undoubtedly save thousands of lives.

I believe that the economic crises we are facing are systemic (that is permanent) and not cyclical. The kind of economic crisis that is facing Greece and the rest of the European periphery is just around the corner for the US. OWS is an extremely slender reed on which to base our hopes, but it's all we' ve got.

We are headed in the same direction as Greece and the rest of Europe if we don't change our ways.

Again as I have stated, the people of this country don't know how to "engage government" and let them know if they don't change their ways they will be out of office.

I posted on this site about why the OWS don't put feet on the gound in Washington DC to take a stand and let our representatives know that change needs to be made.

They keep saying wall street is the problem and control Washington DC.

Well, the problem is Washington DC and they need to let Washington DC know it.

It goes back to the confort zone. It's easier for them to protest on Wall Street then to go to Washington DC, stay there and protest.

That is one of the main reasons you don't see more then 20,000 across the country protesting with the OWS movement.

Lots of people may agree but there is no "direction" and that's what's holding the OWS back.

If it were true that more people belived in the movement of the OWS to get our government straightned out they would be out there protesting with them. But having no direction and making it difficult to understand where they are coming from and where they want to go, lots of people are just sitting by on the sideline.

They may give lip service about agreeing and may join in every now an then, but the drive for them to cointinue to join in is not there.

Since the people of Greece are beginning to wage an effective fight back, I don't see that the US heading in that direction is necessarily a bad thing excepting for the fact that OWS is extremely weak and so far it is basically the only thing we have to fight back with.

It's not about making a fundamentally unjust and undemocratic state more effective. It's about creating fundamentally new, peaceful, loving, egalitarian and democratic social relations.

I'll grant you that fundamentally new and basically peaceful, loving, egalitarian and democratic social relations are unlikely in the extreme, but they are really the only democratic way out of the crisis we are in, the other alternative being the evolution of world fascism--the militarization of local police forces in the US that are being used against OWS are but one manifestation of this. I will also grant that OWS is an extremely weak basis on which to pin our hopes for a transformed world, but it is all we've got and while I'd agree that a democratic transformation of our culture from below is unlikely in the extreme, I would also be unwilling to declare in any categorical or absolute sense that it is an impossibility. Life can sometimes be stranger than fiction.

I do think that the kind of world that the most radical elements in OWS envison will take at least decades to accomplish and possibly several lifetimes.

If you're really worried about our President seeming spineless...consider that even saying something vaguely anti Israel is the shortest way to a political death in this country.... frankly I think that demonstrates a level of subservience far greater and much more insidious than what Obama may have shown with his apology for the burning's...

Armed forces were not going to vote for Obama anyway.... you want to know who they ARE voting for? Ron Paul.... thats right... the so called loon... Do you know why?

Because he wants to bring our troops home... because he says that the army is there for National defense... and thats it...

He believes (as do I) that we are not the worlds police force. Our military should protect US, and from direct existential threats to OUR homeland. Not anyone else... and yes... that includes Israel too... they're big boys now (>300 nukes)... they can play by themselves...

Call it selfish, but we cant exactly afford to NOT be selfish right now.

Also.... you know what? Having our troops in so many sensitive areas is precisely why so many people like to take shots at them. If we stop meddling in every other nations affairs... odds are they will stop bothering us too...

That's sound economic and strategic logic right there.

As for apologizing, it only makes sense. Do you realize what would have happened if he had refused to apologize? More goodwill lost and more people killed.

If you're really worried about our President seeming spineless...consider that even saying something vaguely anti Israel is the shortest way to a political death in this country.... frankly I think that demonstrates a level of subservience far greater and much more insidious than what Obama may have shown with his apology for the burning's...

Ron Pauls foreign policy and his intention to end the Federal Reserve are probably the only things I really like about him... does not mean that I want to vote for him though

Speaking of voting, people should be allowed to vote for policies rather than candidates... the current system is kinda like forcing people to buy albums with one good song and the rest being crap....

Oh, no, GWB didn't have anything to do with any of that; well howwwdy! Ya'll have a really self-centered way of believeing just whatever it is ya'll want to believe, ain't ya! That's why y'all don't mind marry'n your own sister', cause ya just tell yourself . . . "Well, she just ain't my goddamned sister after all!

"The burning of the quran was done with an attempt to do it properly. " Really? Burning a Koran in a garbage pile? You know, before we get too uppity about that:

Proper Disposal of Holy Objects - The Details
www.chabad.org/library/.../Proper-Disposal-of-Holy-Objects.htmMay 10, 2011 – Chabad.org - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info ... on the particular use, there are guidelines for how to treat and dispose of these objects.
Ask the Rabbi - Geniza
judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_geniza.htmI've been searching your various websites, but I can't find any reference to the above subject (disposal of Siddurim and Torah Scrolls). Is this a religious ...
What's the proper way to dispose of holy objects? - life cycle bar/bat ...

www.askmoses.com/.../Whats-the-proper-way-to-dispose-of-holy-obj...Apr 11, 2005 – This rule also applies to any words of Torah, such as a sefer (Torah ... Does this also apply to printers waste if not how can they dispose of this if ...
Proper Disposal of a Worn Sefer Torah - CCAR Responsa

data.ccarnet.org/cgi-bin/respdisp.pl?file=4&year=5757She has asked that we give her the sefer torah so that she might keep it in the room she uses for her study and prayer-group activities to help establish an ...
How to Dispose of a Damaged Torah | eHow.com
www.ehow.com › Culture & SocietyHow to Dispose of a Damaged Torah. A Torah scroll is one of the holiest objects in the Jewish religion. Although damaged scrolls may sometimes be repaired by ...
Weekly Halacha - Parshas Behaaloscha, 5770 - Torah.org

www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5770/behaaloscha.htmlHow one should “dispose” of a given ritual object is determined by the category into which the ... Kedushah objects are intrinsically holy (such as a Sefer Torah).
Recycling in Jewish Tradition

AND:

Flag Disposal | American Flag and Flagpole Co
www.aflag.com/disposal.aspFlag Disposal - American Flag and Flagpole Co. ... should use common sense making sure the procedure is in good taste and shows no disrespect for the flag.
Flag Burning Ceremony Details-American Flag Disposal-American ...

www.usa-flag-site.org/faq/disposal.shtmlI recently took a Flag Etiquette Quiz at another site. One of the questions concerned proper disposal of the American flag. The question was "How should you ...
Proper Flag Disposal, Recycling, Torn Flag Reporting
www.flagkeepers.org/We do proper flag disposal and flag recycling. The Flag Keepers flag disposal ceremony is respectful. Visit here for proper flag disposal info for torn American, ...
Flag Disposal Fees - Flag Retirement Ceremony - Flag History - Flag Report
What is the procedure for properly disposing of a worn American flag ...

www.answerbag.com/q_view/374
12 answers - Aug 22, 2003
Since submitting this answer, I have since been given new information. The American Legion has indeed drafted and installed a standard cerimony ...

of course they wont, they've got their money on Ron Paul the armed forces are the biggest contributor to his campaign. And if the people dont vote the same, it just shows how out of touch the rest of the country is from our troops.

I've heard of muslims, the crazy ones in these fucked up hell holes called countries wiping their asses with the bible and leaving around for our soldiers to find.
These crazy wars are always about commerce and who will control most of it for profit. We all make our living in economies that trade all over the globe

"if you send unprepared people into a sensitive situation you can expect things like this to happen."
you mean dealing with "people" who worship a book and hold it above life?
like christians did in 1492

FROM THE BOOK
sura 2:191 And slay the disbelievers.
sura 3:12 Say unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell

Oh come on now... the bible says the same kind of things, but you rarely see inquisitions or crusades anymore. Christians used to catapult the heads of slain Muslims over city walls to terrorize them, now they just complain.

Its a lot less about religion and a lot more about the fact that they've never had a chance to join the modern world because we continue to meddle over there, install dictatorships, and then bomb them back to the stone age.

Yes - the bible does - but Christians dont anymore - they have evolved
but dont blame us for their history & fatwas have nothing to do with America I hope you have an open mind and a strong stomach- they have been killing us & each other to conquer the world since day 1 -
here's the first 200 years

622: Hijra— Muhammad’s migration to Medina. First year of Islamic calendar.
624: Muhammad’s Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Medina.
625: Muhammad’s Battle of Uhud. Expulsion of the of Banu Nadir Jews from Medina.
627: Muhammad’s Battle of the Trench: Decapitation of Banu Quraiza Jewish men [ buried in trenches] and enslavement of Banu Quraiza Jewish women and children.
628: Battle of Khaybar.
629: Muhammad’s pilgrimage to Mecca. Battle of Mu'ta.
630: Muhammad’s Conquest of Mecca. Battle of Hunayn. Battle of Autas. Siege of Ta'if.
632: Death of Muhammad. Battles of Zu Qissa. Battles of Zu Abraq. Battle of Buzakha. Battle of Zafar. Battle of Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Mosailima.
633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Yemen, and Hadramaut. . Battle of Kazima, Battle of Mazar, Battle of Walaja, Battle of Ullais, Battle of Hira, Battle of Al-Anbar, Battle of Ayn al-Tamr,
Battle of Dawmat al-Jandal, Battle of Firaz.
634: Battle of Bosra, Battle of Damascus, Battle of Ajnadin. Death of Abu Bakr. Umar ibn al-Khattab assumes power as the second caliph. Battle of Namaraq, Battle of Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge, Battle of Buwaib, Conquest of Damascus, Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yarmuk, Battle of al-Qādisiyyah, Conquest of Madain.
637: Moslem Conquest of Jerusalem, Conquest of Syria’ Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuzistan. Advance into Egypt. Plague of Emmaus.
640: Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand; Conquest of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Conquest of Egypt.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Mazandaran).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan. Assassination of Umar. Uthman ibn Affan becomes the caliph.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armenia and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cyprus.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
650: First conflict between Arabs and Turks. Khazars defeated an Arab force led by Abd ar-Rahman ibn Rabiah outside the Khazar town of Balanjar.
655: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
656: Uthman is killed. Battle of the Camel.
657: Battle of Siffin.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Muawiyah I.
660: Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Muawiyah. .
661: Ali was assassinated by Kharijites.
662: Kharijites' revolts.
666: Raid of Sicily.
669: Hasan ibn Ali, the second imam of the Shiites is poisoned and killed. Husayn ibn Ali becomes Imam of Ali ibn Abi Talib's followers.
670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba bin Nafe founds the town of Kairouan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
677: Occupation of Samarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
680: Battle of Karbala and Husayn bin Ali is killed along with his companions.
682: North Africa Uqba bin Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Kairouan and withdraw to Burqa.
684: Battle of Marj Rahat.
685: Battle of Ain ul Wada.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abd Allah ibn Zubayr.
691: Battle of Dayr al-Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
692: The fall of Mecca. Death of ibn Zubayr. Abdul Malik becomes the sole caliph.
695: Kharijites' revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa.
696: The Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa. By the end of this century, global Muslim population had grown to 1 per cent of the total.
702: Ash'ath's rebellion in Iraq, battle of Dayr al-Jamira.
711: Conquest of Spain by Tariq bin Ziad and Transoxiana.
712: Conquest of Sind by Mohammad bin Qasim
713: Conquest of Multan.
716: Second Arab siege of Constantinople.
723: Al-Kharashi, massacred Turks and Sogdian refugees in Khujand
725: The Muslims occupy Nîmes in France.
728: Turgesh Qaghan Suluk defeated Muslim ibn Sa'id
730: Barjik, of Khazar Turks invaded northwestern Iran and defeated the Umayyad forces at Ardabil in 730, killing the Arab governor Al-Djarrah al-Hakami
732: The Battle of Tours in France.
737: The Muslims meet a reverse at Avignon in France.
737: Marwan ibn Muhammad (later Caliph Marwan II) poured across the Caucasus and eventually defeated a Khazar army led by Hazer Tarkhan, briefly occupying Atil itself.
740: Shi'a Zaydi Revolt. Battle of the Nobles.
741: Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa.
742: The Muslim rule restored in Qairawan.
743: Muhammad al-Baqir is poisoned. Shi'a revolt in Khurasan under Yahya ibn Zayd.
744: Battle of Ain al Jurr. Marwan II becomes Umayyad Caliph.
745: Kufa and Mosul occupied by the Kharijites.
746: Battle of Rupar Thutha, Kufa and Mosul occupied by Marwan II.
747: Revolt of Abu Muslim in Khurasan.
748: Battle of Rayy.
749: Battle of lsfahan and Battle of Nihawand. Capture of Kufa by the Abbasids. As-Saffah becomes the Abbasid Caliph at Kufa.
750: Battle of Zab. Fall of Damascus. End of the Umayyads.
751: Conquest of Wasit by the Abbasid. Murder of the Minister Abu Salama.
751: Battle of Talas Abbasid amies defeat Tang Dynasty of China. First
755: Revolt of Abdullah bin Ali. Murder of Abu Muslim. Sunbadh revolt in Khurasan.
758: Khazar army under Ras Tarkhan invaded and occupied parts of Azerbaijan
763: Foundation of Baghdad. Defeat of the Abbasids in Spain.
766: Sayram in Central Asia taken from the Nestorians. Evangelical army of Arab Muslims and recent converts led by Abd al-Aziz.
767: Ustad Sees revolt in Khurasan.
772: Battle of Janbi in North Africa. Rustamid state set up in Morocco.
777: Siege of Saragossa in Spain.
792: Invasion of South France.
799: Suppression of the revolt of the Khazars.
800: Musa al-Kazim is poisoned in prison of Harun al-Rashid. Ali al-Rida becomes Imam. Aghlabid rule is established in North Africa.
803: Downfall of the Barmakids. Execution of Jafar Barmki.
805: Campaigns against the Byzantines. Capture of the islands of Rhodes and Cyprus.
811: Battle of Rayy in Persia.
814: Civil war between Amin and al-Ma'mun.
815: Shi'a revolt under Ibn Tuba Tabs.
816: Shi'a revolt in Mecca; Harsama quells the revolt. Umayyads capture Corsica.
820: Tahir ibn Husayn establishes the rule of the Tahirids in Khurasan.

1914: Under Ottoman rule, secret Arab nationalist societies are formed. World War I begins. The Ottoman Empire enters the war allied with Germany.
1915: Ottoman Empire defeats Allies in Çanakkale (Dardanalles)
1916: Arab revolt against Ottoman (Turkish) rule. Lawrence of Arabia leads attacks on the Hejaz Railway.
1919: The first revolution in Egypt led by Saad Zaghlul against British occupation.
1920: Ottoman Sultan Mehmed VI signs the Treaty of Sèvres, reducing the Empire to a fraction of its previous size and allowing for the indefinite presence of Allied forces in Turkey.
The treaty is rejected by nationalist leaders, who vow to block its implementation.
1920: Emirate of Bukhara and Khanate of Khiva conquered by Bolshevik Russia.
1920-1922: Turkish War of Independence.
1921: Abd al-Karim leads a revolt against colonial rule in Moroccan Rif, and declares the "Republic of the Rif".
1920 : Turkish nationalists defeat Armenia.
1922: Armistice of Mudanya. Turkish nationalists under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal seize control of Turkey and abolish the Ottoman Sultanate, prompting
Sultan Mehmed VI to flee Turkey; the 600 year-old Ottoman Empire officially ceases to exist.
1924: The Turkish Grand National Assembly abolishes the Ottoman Caliphate and sends the remaining members of the Ottoman House into exile.
1924: King Abd al-Aziz Ibn Saud conquers Mecca and Medina, leading to the unification of the Kingdoms of Najd and Hejaz.
1925: Reza Khan seizes the government in Persia and establishes the Pahlavi dynasty.
1936: Increased Jewish immigration leads to an Arab revolt in Palestine in the Great Uprising.
1946: Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria are granted independence from Britain and France.
1947: India gains independence from Britain, and Pakistan is created from the region's Muslim-majority areas under the Leadership of Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Disputes over the status
of Kashmir leads to the first Indo-Pakistani War; Kashmir is divided between India and Pakistan.
1948: Arab countries attack the new state of Israel and suffer defeat in war with Israel. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are displaced,
1949: Hasan al-Banna, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, is assassinated by Egyptian security forces. Second East Turkestan Republic overthrown and re-incorporated into Xinjiang.
1952: King Faruq of Egypt forced to abdicate by the free officers led by Gamal Abdel Nasser,Hassan-Al-Banna martyred in Cairo,syed Qutb return to Egypt and join Muslim Brotherhood.
1957: The Bey of Tunisia is deposed, and Bourguiba becomes president. Enlargement of the Haram in Mecca begins. The Federation of Malaya, later renamed Malaysia,
gains independence from Britain.
1965: second Indo-Pakistani War results in a stalemate. Malaysia grants independence to Singapore.
1967: In the Six-Day War between Israel and Egypt, Syria and Jordan, Israel seizes control of Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, and the Golan Heights.
1969: King Idris of Libya is ousted by a coup led by Colonel Qadhdhafi.
1971: Bengalis in East Pakistan under the leadership of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman begin campaigning for independence from West Pakistan, prompting a heavy-handed military reprisal
from Pakistani forces. India enters the conflict, causing the third Indo-Pakistani War which culminates in the creation of Bangladesh.
1972: During the Summer Olympic Games in Munich, West Germany, eleven members of the Israeli Olympic team were taken hostage by Palestinian terrorist group Black September in
what is known as the Munich massacre.
1973: King Zahir Shah of Afghanistan is overthrown. Yom Kippur War, leads to recapture of Sinai peninsula and Golan Heights by Egypt and Syria from Israel.
1974: Turkey launched a military invasion on Cyprus 1974 following the coup d'e'tat engineered by the Greek Junta
1975: Indonesia invades and occupies East Timor. King Faisal of Saudi Arabia is assassinated by his half-brother's son Faisal bin Musa'id.
1978: Imam Musa Sadr, a Lebanese Shi'a leader is apparently assassinated after he disappears on a trip to Libya. As part of the Camp David Accords, Egypt becomes
the first Arab nation to recognize Israel. Israel returns the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt.
1980: Iraq invades Iran, beginning the Iran–Iraq War. In a move not recognized internationally, Israel confirms its capital as the united Jerusalem.
1981: The 444-day Iranian hostage crisis comes to an end. Egyptian president Anwar Sadat is assassinated by militants opposed to his autocratic policies and recognition of
Israel Succeeded by Muhammad Hosni Mubarak.
1988: The Iran–Iraq War comes to an end following much loss of life. President Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq of Pakistan was killed in a plane crash caused by a mysterious mid-air explosion.
1989: Death of Shia religious leader and Iranian head of state Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini; Accession of Ali Khamenei as the Supreme Leader of Iran. The Soviet Union withdraws
the last of its forces from Afghanistan. Afghan mujahideen factions begin fighting each other.
1990: Iraq invades Kuwait. North Yemen and South Yemen reunite.
1991: A coalition of United States-led forces attacks Iraq and reverses its attempted military annexation of Kuwait. US-backed economic sanctions are imposed on Iraq. The sanctions
are widely blamed for subsequent dramatic increases in famine, birth defects, and infant mortality amongst Iraqis. The Soviet Union collapses. Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan,
Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan, all predominantly Muslim former Soviet republics, become independent. Armenian military occupies one-sixth of Azerbaijani territory
expelling over 800,000 ethnic Azerbaijanis from the occupied lands and Armenia proper. Somalia civil war begins
1992: United Nations Forces, mainly Americans, enter Somalia.
1994: Jordan becomes the second of Israel's Arab neighbors to recognize Israel.
1996: Taliban forces seize control of most of Afghanistan and declare the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. 1998: Pakistan became the first Islamic republic to have the nuclear power as it
successfully conducted five nuclear tests on May, 28.
2000 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip begin the Al-Aqsa Intifada, prompted by Ariel Sharon's visit to a disputed religious site holy to both Jews and
Muslims. Parvez Musharraf overthrows the democratically elected government of Nawaz Sharif in Pakistan Suicide attack on USS Cole kills 17 US sailors.
2001 Members of Al Qaeda a muslim Jihadi organization, attack the United States. Hijacked commercial airliners are flown into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon building on
September 11, 2001, killing over 3000 The United States subsequently declares a War on terror and invades Afghanistan, whose Taliban regime had given refuge to Al Qaeda
leader Osama bin Laden. The Taliban are ousted from power, though the fate of bin Laden is still unknown. [2]
2002 The riots between Hindus and Muslims in Gujarat, India. More than 5000 reported killed. A terrorist group linked to Al-Qaeda kill more than 200 people in the 2002 Bali bombings.
Chechen rebles take 800 hostages in the Moscow theater hostage crisis.
2003 Truck bombings in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 34. Spanish restaurant and Jewish centres attackted in Casablanca, Morocco, killing 43 people. Attack on hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia
kills 10. 52 killed in suicide attacks on British and Jewish targets in Istanbul.
2004 A Jihadi group claims responsibility for bombings in Madrid's commuter railway and several trains. The Jihad attack killed 191, and wounded 1,460 others. Israeli civilian deaths
from suicide bombings since the Second Intifada passes 500.
2005 A Muslim group claims responsibility for bombings in the London Underground. The attack kills 52, and wounds over 700 others. Bombings in Sharm el-Sheikh,
Egypt kill at least 83 and wound hundreds.
2007 Ethiopian forces invade Somalia and routed Islamic Courts from Mogadishu.
2007 Zahedan bombings kills 18 in Iran. February 13, 2007 Bikfaya bombings kills 3 in Lebanon. 2 Muslims carry out the 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack.
2008 Issers bombing kills 43 in Algeria.
2008 Bin Salman Mosque bombing kills 15 in Yemen. 2008 United States consulate in Istanbul attack kills 6. [edit] 2009
2009 Hotel Shamo bombing kills at least 30 people in Somalia. Islamist rebels carry out the a military ambush in Algeria. 2009 Jakarta bombings kill 9 in Indonesia. 7 were arrested from the Raleigh jihad group. Several people were arrested as they were suspected of planning bombings in the United States. (See: 2009 U. S. Al Qaeda group) Tourists were attackted
in Yemen after Al-Qaeda called for attacks against visitors to the region. Zahedan explosion kills 20 in Iran. Guwahati bombings kills 6 in India.
2010 attacks on Ahmadi mosques in Lahore killing 86 and seriously injuring over 120. May 2010 Mogadishu bombings kills at least 39 in Somalia. Chechen suicide bombers kill 40 in the 2010 Moscow Metro bombings. Kizlyar bombings kill 12 in Russia.

I don't think it is fair to compare history in a linear way. And, one could make the argument that nations in the West are Christian nations and that they have been involved in plenty of wars even up to the present day. I mean you could go into the colonization of Africa, Asia and South America, but that's a big long story to tell.

Most wars are not religious in the first place. At their deepest roots are power, land and resources.

Ya really... its not like US soldiers don't write verses from Issiah on the bombs before they drop. Plus, you can't become President unless your get on national television and profess your belief in Jesus... and coins with "In God we trust" etc. etc.

Could easily make the same arguments, but they only seem to apply to the other side. Lord forbid there are actually real reasons why we are hated in those countries (like say foreign policy over the last 75 years), as opposed to them just being crazy Koran loving freedom hating Muslims who want to take over ze world.

Yes. And, I'm with Richard on this (see above). This kind of crap does not belong here on this forum. Chungwunka should be banned and anyone else here who is showing their ignorance and intolerance should be banned as well. I've had enough.

you were blaming the actions of a predominantly brutal, violent religion on America because of America's attrcious actionstics.
These people believe that a book burner should be murdered
These people believe that a cartoonist should be murdered
These people believe that an author (Rushdie) should be murdered

If someone broke into your house 20 times and burned one of your books, would you murder them?
If someone drew a cartoon of Uncle Sam strangling a child, would you murder them?
If an author wrote a book critical of America, would you murder them?

I am not saying that America's hands are clean
( An analogy could be made that American acts are based on its worship of money )
I am saying the violet maniacal history is inside the religion - just look a the history of terror attacks since 2000 & read the Koran

"If someone broke into your house 20 times and burned one of your books, would you murder them?"

Let me ask you a better question: If a foreign army came into your country, occupied it for 10 years, dropped bombs on your friends and relatives, and then got caught burning the bible, how do you suppose you would react? How about your neighbors?

My guess is it wouldn't even matter if you believed in the bible or not because by that point you'd be so annoyed with the whole situation it wouldn't take much to get a reaction.

... and needless to say the economy would be destroyed, infrastructure destroyed, zero jobs, on the brink of civil war, and you'd be lucky to be able beg for enough money to get a sack of moldy grain to feed your family with.

This is unproductive. Unless you are for doing away with the constitution, you should show more reverence, even on here, for other religions. This is not the place to hash out religious differences and this type of engagement costs you credibility on unrelated subjects.

the muslims are dangerous, they have infiltrated( immigrated) all over the world with the purpose of forcing their so called religion on non muslims.
draw a cartoon of mohammed and you're under a death threat. put a cross in urine and it's called art. christians dont murder over it. they may not like it but they don't murder because they don't like some art installation.

Honestly, do you know nothing of history? What do you think Christians did to the world? Why do you think there are Christians in sub-Saharan Africa, in South America? Huh? Any ideas how that happened?

Look. Thier are Christians, and their are "Christians". Where the two delineate is hard to say. If one reads the words of Jesus, you are looking at some seriously radical teachings. Who can follow them and not be viewed as a nut job? Yet that is what He asks his followers to do. We all have friends who are Catholic, or Lutheran or Methodist, or Jewish, or fill in the blank. Many have not stepped foot in the local parish or church or synagogue, and know little, if anything, what the official dogma or teachings of the organization are. But their is always a segment, or fraction of the particular body that adheres to the teachings and are true believers. Not perfect people, but sincere people trying their best to be upright according to the teachings they are supposed to subscribe to. Islam is no different. Many are Islamic because their family tradition is such, yet they know little about the real teachings of their religion. Some would reject the faith outright if they knew the real teachings, as would many of the various Christian religions. I know very few practicing Muslims, and can only go by what I have heard from former Muslims, most of which agree with what you say Skylar, and what I have read for myself. A book which I recently read entitled, "The Line Upon The Wind", which is a brief history of the world wars that occurred between 1793 and 1815, put a fair amount of time into the formation of the U.S. Navy and their response to the Barbary pirates. Merchant mariners were often held prisoner if they refused to pay the tolls the Barbary Islamists required. Many European and Americans were held prisoner and forced into slavery unless they converted to Islam, where they were then allowed normal rights. I have not read the Koran, only small quotes from time to time as a reference to support your claims Skylar. Have you read it? I would be interested to know how you came to the claim you made, although, as I have said, I have heard the claim made often.

If Christians really wanted to act like Christians, they'd turn the other cheek and not fight back at all. What do you really think Jesus would say to his flock if he were to show up today? Hmm? Does the Christian religion not play into the behavior of said Christians just because they do not fight "In the name of God" which, btw, they did just a few centuries ago, big time!

The US has killed more people in the past ten years than Muslims have in the past 100. The US is the only country to ever use nuclear weapons and they were used on two densely populated civilian cities.

The National Liberation Front of Tripura is a Christian terrorist group in India.

In July 2011, Anders Behring Breivik identifying himself as a "Christian crusader" was arrested and charged with terrorism after a car bombing in Oslo and a mass shooting on Utøya island where 151 people were injured, and 77 killed.

Christian views on abortion have been cited by Christian individuals and groups that are responsible for threats, assault, murder, and bombings against abortion clinics and doctors across the United States and Canada.

In Assam, the Manmasi National Christian Army (MNCA), an extremist group from the Hmar tribe, were charged with forcing Hindus to convert at gunpoint. They also desecrated temples by painting crosses on the walls with their blood

Armed NLFT militants were forcibly converting tribal villagers to Christianity. It is believed that up to 5,000 tribal villagers were forcibly converted to Christianity by the NLFT in two years.

They are taught - they are sent to training progarms to learn about the culture. What they did wasn't wrong - they did what any good quran thumping individual would do with a descerated book - burn it.

I would have told those dumb ass towel heads to go to heck. the u.s. doesn't have to apologize for anything done. the afgans need to realize that they are a worthless, backward country and the only way to progress, is to join the U.S. in terminating radical islam.

the korans were burned because they were being written in and used by MUSLIMS to send messages to other MUSLIMS . when a load of bibles were sent to afghanistan , they were burned by the US army so as not ot offend any muslims. any christians riot or murder people because of that? NO.

It's sickening we are apologizing for burning books filled with secret information that endangers our troops. Yes you muslim brotherhood penis sippers, the qurans had coded messages in them, that's why they were destroyed by burning, not because our military likes burning religious texts. You fools.

And why shouldn't Karzai apologize? I thought i heard the Obimination say the pruporse of apologising is to show good faith and respect and to let the people over there know that we respect them - at least that what's the Obimination wants us to think.

Where is the "good faith and respect" towards our troops? There isn't any. This apology by the Obimination was wrong. Our troops did nothing wrong and in return we have 4 men killed and have yet to reaceive any respect by those idiots over there.

“I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank.”

MONEY MAY BE USEFUL - BUT IT IS VOTES THAT COUNT
Looking at the exit polls, it would appear that Ron Paul's much touted military support was AWOL in the South Carolina primary.
Paul and his supporters like to say that because he served in the military and receives more contributions from people who list the Defense Department as their employer, his foreign policy is mainstream and acceptable. Media outlets like the Boston Globe and the New York Times touted Paul's military support before the South Carolina primary.
The Times wrote:
Representative Ron Paul, the congressman who favors the most minimalist American combat role of any major presidential candidate ... has more financial support from active duty members of the service than any other politician.
As of the last reporting date, at the end of September, Paul leads all candidates by far in donations from service members. This trend has been in place since 2008, when Paul ran for president with a similar stance: calling nonsense at hawk squawk from both parties.
An article at RT.com:
In South Carolina where the next Republican primary is slated for the coming days, Texas Congressman Ron Paul is gaining support for his anti-war views, despite the rhetoric being heard in a state largely dependent on the military-industrial complex. The Department of Defense has a number of bases in South Carolina and the economy of the state is driven by-and-large by the role the military has. Non-interventionist ideals held by Rep. Ron Paul would be expected to fall on deaf ears there, but on the contrary, the candidate remains within the top-tier of politicians vying for the GOP nomination.
The Boston Globe added:
No polls report on who is winning this contest for this state’s military community, but by one barometer active-duty troops favor the one candidate who wants the United States out of foreign wars along with a drastic reduction in defense spending: Representative Ron Paul of Texas. “The military is behind me more than the others,’’ he boasted earlier this week in Myrtle Beach, noting he gets twice as much money from service members as his opponents combined.

But as the saying goes, money does not automatically translate into votes.

South Carolina is a state steeped in military tradition dating back to the Revolution, and is home to over 38,000 active duty military on seven military installations. "Tens of thousands of veterans live here, and countless civilians depend on an economy powered by the armed services," the Globe reports.
Bobby Caina Calvan wrote:
South Carolina is “more red blooded than the rest of the country’’ and appealing to voters’ sense of “patriotism will probably take you farther than other places,’’ said DuBose Kapeluck, a professor of political science at The Citadel, a military college in Charleston. “The military vote is important in any calculus for any candidate who wants to be successful here,’’ he said.

It would stand to reason that Paul would do well in such a state, given the coverage, his own service and his military donations. But he didn't.

According to exit polls conducted by Fox News and CNN, Paul got very little actual support from South Carolina's military population.
Fox News exit polling showed that 21 percent of those who voted in South Carolina served in the military. Of those who identified themselves as veterans or active duty military,Ron Paul received only 12 percent of the voteNewt Gingrich received 39 percentRomney at 32 percent.
Even Rick Santorum received more votes than Paul's 12.

Paul's military support is more myth than reality? Redstate diarist Kudzu notes that one "can put down anything in the 'occupation' box" when making a donation to a political candidate. A post at Liberty Reborn calls it "the Big Lie." "Military personnel email me every day telling me that on base there is at best one Ron Paul supporter and how frustrated they are that the Paulbots are telling this Big Lie," writes J. J. Jackson.

Despite what Paul and his supporters claim, the ultimate show of support - the actual vote - simply wasn't there for the Texas Congressman.

i think his only problem is he don't spew sh$t out his mouth every time he talks. I think he is a non polotician cause he doesn't really spin spin spin everything, and he lets the media kick the crap out of him. but other than that i don't see anything wrong with his foreign policy (don't police the world) sounds good to me.