If your husband would like to learn more about the Orthodox faith, and to ask questions of a priest, he might enjoy sitting in on a catechumens' class. This would not obligate him to become a catechumen; it just would give him a "live forum" for asking questions about things he does not know or understand. If you have time to join him in the activity, you would learn more about how your priest teaches the faith.

From your question, I was wondering if you were "raised Orthodox" as are many people -- which is to say that you went to church occasionally, had little or no religious reinforcement at home, yet consider yourself "Orthodox." And/or, you had little or no Christian education by means of "Sunday School." My husband was raised so, and "discovered Orthodoxy" while a graduate student. He is grateful that he was born into an Orthodox family, but is every so much more grateful that he found out what it all really means!

Sincerely,(trying to be helpful, and not at all meaning to be accusatory),

I think you can find a great list of books on this website for you to read with your husband. I also suggest you start an icon corner in your home (if you don't have one) for you both to pray together. I think these are great first steps and will bring you both closer together in Christ.

I know it's hard for your husband if he wants to completely join you in the faith, but it is worth the wait. If he goes too far too fast he may find himself later on wishing he had known more earlier. I also think you will both find yourselves moving towards God in a way not possible if you both practice the Orthodox faith in your prayers and fasts at home.

I hope you continue to post here and let us know if we can help, but make sure you discuss these issues with your spiritual father.

Slightly off topic but . . .

I thought that only the unbaptized became catechumens. In know that's the case for Latins, but I thought that this was also true in Orthodoxy.

I know it's not what you want to do, but I think it would do you a lot of good to talk to your parish Priest if you have questions like this, or burdens that you're dealing with. This is one of the main functions of the Priest - to give counsel. Too often Priests are treated as decorated "masters of ceremonies", generously paid (at least in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese) to keep alive a "part of our heritage", but otherwise not be "too involved" in our personal lives - hence the "popularity" (hack, cough) of confession in most Greek parishes in North America.

As for your husband and Holy Communion...while I can appreciate that what you really wanted was a simple "yes" or "no" answer, I think it is important both for you and your husband to know why the answer is "no." It is not a matter of religious chauvenism, which is typically what people in our "my rights" obsessed culture will think when they hear that Orthodoxy does not practice "open communion."

I do not want an answer to the following, I simply pose it for your (and your husband's) consideration - obviously one of you (or both of you) wanted him to receive Holy Communion in the Church. The quesion though is why? Frankly, if it was for any other reason than to receive the precious Body and Blood of Christ, truly and substantially present under the appearances of Bread and Wine for his salvation...then the motive is unworthy. The Gifts of God are not social occassions. However, if he did want to receive Communion for good reasons...then it begs the question why he does not become Orthodox himself, since he obviously believes (in such a case) in the Church's ability to sanctify mankind by Her ministrations.

Indeed, in my question (which I repeat, I do not want an answer to...those answers are not my affair) you may perhaps see the reason why the Orthodox Church does not practice open communion, and even expects preparation on the part of those who are members of the Church.

I'm sorry, but your comment was harsh and unnecessary, imo.Maybe I'm wrong and maybe the rules on this forum is to stop "conversation" on a topic when someone is tired of reading it.If that is so, I apologize.

But I don't see why if you are tired of my thread, why not just not read it? Don't click it on.

I enjoy the conversation and talking about our ideas and feelings, afterall, this is a forum for people to get together and talk about what is on their minds about Orthodoxy.

At the risk of assuming that we can continue on conversing about a topic even though others are tired of it... I want to answer some questions that Augustine asked.

"Why" do I ask if my husband can take communion, and "why" do I want this?

Because I want to be able to share this with my husband.My children and I all take communion, but daddy cannot.

It bothers me, yes, that in the Orthodox religion, non Orthodox aren't allowed to receive communion. He is baptised a christian and has a very strong belief... I don't understand why non Orthodox people are shunned.

My husband was allowed to marry me in the Orthodox church, thus having an Orthodox marriage... so I ask, why not communion?

Thank you anastasios for your quick response.And yes, my husband does believe that the communion is the Body and Blood of Christ.

I have struggled with this type of question all my life, even as a young child, but in the greek culture (at least in my house) we were slapped if we questioned anything... we were to "do" and "be quiet".

Coming to a forum like this is alot easier than making an appointment with the priest here. First, he doesn't really give any answers, just prayers to pray.

Second, I'm sorry to say, he just doesn't seem interested.

I thank you though, anastasios, for giving me an idea of what is going on.

I have always questioned why there are "rules" in the greek church and catholic church. To tell the truth, I haven't been able to understand why this is necessary.

If Jesus was here on earth now and people were begging him to receive his blessings or communion or forgiveness etc... would he deny them? I would like to think not.

If your husband believes that the Orthodox communion is the body and blood, and he wants to take communion and has been attending the church with you and your children... why then doesn't he start the process of being chrismated so he can be fully part of the church?

You don't have to answer this question on the forum just something to think about. The Church doesn't have open communion because a common commitment and understanding of Christ is needed.

queen,I'm sorry you felt my comment was rude and I apologize for any unintended rudeness/harshness.

In many message boards (I've seen inclinations here, but no where near other, usually secular message boards), people "pad" their post counts, kinda of as a status symbol/their social life/whatever. In this case, you asked a fairly simple question, several people answered with many good suggestions/answers and then someone posted again almost a week later (not necessarily trying to implicate that person though). Frequently on message boards, people misterpret each other's intention/tone since it is hard to convey emotions/tone of voice/etc.

After your reply to me though, you asked some further relevant questions causing further discussion. That's all. Cheers and I hope we've been helpful.

Thank you Elisha and thank you everyone else who has helped me through this.

Elisha...I hope we are at peace with one another And how I soooo agree about trying to convey feeling, emotions points to ponder over the internet via flat words on a screen with just (silly at times) emoticons to get our purpose across.

My question, I know has a very deeper response... which is why does the orthodox and catholic church have "rules" in which you can receive sacraments?

Sounds like a child has asked this question I know.But I am trying my best by surfing the net and reading in bookstores whatever I can find to understand the beginnings of religion and "why" this is so.Why were/are there rules?

I can appreciate your desire to have communion with your husband in all things in your marraige the two of you were made one flesh for the salvation of both of you and your children. I am sure it is quite painful that your husband cannot share this part of your life with you and the children.

There are many things in life that do not make perfect sense to us upon first(or even seventeenth) glance, and this dogma of the Church can certainly fall into that category. Perhaps it would help to talk about the first instance of holy communion - The Lord's Supper.

I am going to quote two biblical passages, not to sound condescending or assuming that you or others are not familiar with them, but in the belief that these passages are very important to the questions at hand.

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Luk 22:14 And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. Luk 22:15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; Luk 22:16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." Luk 22:17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves; Luk 22:18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

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1Co 11:17 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 1Co 11:18 For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, 1Co 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1Co 11:20 When you meet together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. 1Co 11:21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk. 1Co 11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not. 1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 1Co 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 1Co 11:25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 1Co 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 1Co 11:28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 1Co 11:29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. 1Co 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 1Co 11:31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. 1Co 11:32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world. 1Co 11:33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another-- 1Co 11:34 if any one is hungry, let him eat at home--lest you come together to be condemned. About the other things I will give directions when I come.

In the epistle of St. Paul, it is shown that partaking of communion while in the midst of sin is a great danger to both body and soul. In the Orthodox Church, it is not enough to merely be baptised and chrismated in the Orthodox Church, to receive communion properly we need to have confessed our sins, fasted from the night before, and pray the preparation for communion and thanksgiving prayers.

To receive the Eucharist is be in communion both body and soul with The Holy Trinity and with the entire body of The Church. Receiving communion worthily is the most pronounced "Amen" we can make acknowledging the teachings of the Church, our own sinfulness, and that we submit our fallen nature to that of the Church in all her dogmas.

In Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology, our view is that the Orthodox Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and that all other groups of people that call themselves Christian are removed from the Church from one degree or another. The teaching of the Church is not that there cannot be grace outside of the Church but that the only place we can conclusively state that the grace of God resides is within the Church. Outside of that we can hope that there is much grace and even applaud the many good works done by bodies removed from the Church, but as there is one Christ there is one Body of Christ according to any and all sources of tradition we have.

The Church is for the salvation of mankind. All are called to bear their cross and become communicants within the Church. It is for this reason that we were created and that Christ was made God in the flesh. We lament those who have left the Church, and pray for their return to the Body of Christ as we pray the same for their descendants. We wait with open arms to receive any who confess that "God is the Lord and has revealed Himself to us" in the Church.

When a deacon is ordained a priest, part of the service involves having the bishop placing the consecrated bread, the Body of Christ, in the priest's hands with the statement "take this and know that you shall answer for it." The priest is responsible not only for keeping the chalice, but also for his flock. There are many reasons why the priest may refuse the Eucharist to a person, but ultimately they boil down to that person's refusal of the above confession, whether by refusal to repent for their sins, by not trusting in the teachings of the Church, or by some other manifestation.

To restate the obvious, according to the Orthodox Church communion is a literal life-or-death matter. I would like to leave you with the prayer that all Orthodox Christians pray shortly before partaking of the Eucharist as a mediation.

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I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen. Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom. May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen.

It is very difficult when a marraige is based around two faiths, even if both of them are similarly Christian. I want to advise you to go talk to your priest because we are a group of semi-anonymous people who often administer the counsel of a priest without being held to the responsibility that goes along with that. From most of our perspectives, the answer of course is for your husband to convert. From the information you have given us he is obviously not an enemy of the Church as he has no problem with you continuing as a member not to mention your children. He also from your information seems to reject the belief that is held by Presbyterians that the eucharist is not the body and blood of Christ, but a ritual with just and bread and wine(grape juice) to remember his voluntary sacrifice. The standard answer is to go to your priest and he would answer the questions and see if your husband is interested in becoming a catechuman.

Life is often not as simple as we would imagine, though, as we can see just from your statement that your priest is not the most helpful in this situation, as well as perhaps other issues. There are other priests, under the same bishop and under others who are more than willing to help you in your time of need. I am not reccomending that you abandon your priest, but that option is there if your shepard will not look after his flock. We here will do our best to answer questions but please remember that we are no substitue for a priest and however helpful our advice may be, it is certainly possible that we can lead you astray.

One priest that has helped many people answer difficult questions over the internet is Fr. John Matusiak. He is even responsible for an excellent Questions and Answers page that also has much information on this topic. Fr. John is friendly and open to questions. I would reccomend that you email him if your priest continues to not help with this issue. His email address is info@oca.org.

I hope that you find the answers you seek.

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"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."-Yazid Ibrahim

Excellent post, David...and so lengthy that I forgot if what I'm about to say was included therein!

queen --

One of the most precious things about communion -- at least in the Orthodox confession, though perhaps also in others -- is that we are united not only to Christ "in Spirit and in Truth" (that is, fully aware of His self-revelation to us), but we are also united to one another, in one body. St. Paul said he desired that we "all say the same thing"; for us to unite to each other while saying different things would be to rend asunder the very Church, the Body of Christ.

I have always questioned why there are "rules" in the greek church and catholic church. To tell the truth, I haven't been able to understand why this is necessary.

If Jesus was here on earth now and people were begging him to receive his blessings or communion or forgiveness etc... would he deny them? I would like to think not.

So this confuses me about the church.

While I think the answer to this was implicit in what I wrote earlier, I'll put it plainly.

The truth is, your husband is not being denied anything, if he truly wants it. If he has faith that the Holy Gifts (as can only be seen with the eyes of faith) are in fact the true Body and Blood of Christ, and that this is part of the grace giving ministry of the Church, then I do not see why he does not become Orthodox. If he believes his soul can benefit from the ministry of the Church, then why not enroll in the catechumate, and arrange to be Chrismated?

According to St.Paul, the Holy Gifts are either a source of cleansing and salvation, or they bring condemnation. This is why even for those who do profess the teaching of the Church and are numbered amongst Her members, to receive Holy Communion without proper preparation is sacreligious - it does not clean the soul, but only makes it more sinful. Traditionally, that preparation includes fasting, and at the bare minimum, regular confession (and in some Churches, particularly if Communion is received infrequently, confession before each Communion.) This exists, as a discipline of the Church, to prevent Orthodox Christians from doing harm to themselves.

So what then is the Church to do with someone then, who is not even under Her care?

Even if their Baptism is acceptable (and usually those conferred by confession Protestants, like the Presbyterians, are), being foreigners to the Church Christ established as the proper minister of His Holy Mysteries, She (at best) can say nothing positive about the efficacy of that Baptism (the remission of sins, integration into the mystical body of our Lord Jesus Christ). Indeed, strictly speaking it's within Her power to outright "re"-Baptize your husband (which is common in Greece, Jerusalem, and the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad) on the basis that aside from receiving the waters of Baptism, nothing positive can be known for sure about the administering of sacraments outside of the Church. At the very least, out of condescension, the Church would Chrismate your husband (were he to convert), with the assurance that whatever defects (visible and invisible) were to be found in your husband's Presbyterian Baptism, would be healed.

Thus, how can the Church give Holy Communion to someone who cannot be said in any unqualified sense to be authentically Baptized?

Then there is the issue of faith - if your husband is not by decision a member of the Church, that can very well mean he rejects Her teachings - and this could very well be a sin on his part, the sin of disbelief. Ultimatly whether that is true or not is something known only to God - but given that this is a very real possibility (indicated by the fact that he belongs to a religion which explicitly differs with the teaching of the Church of Christ), it would be immoral for the guardian of the sacraments (the Priest) who is supposed to have love for sinners, to endanger souls who have no means to avail themselves of the other ministries of the Church (namely, correct doctrine and spiritual counsel, in particular the sacrament of Confession.)

There are other reasons than these, but perhaps these are the most pressing, the ones that most directly affect your husband as an individual.

If Jesus was here on earth now and people were begging him to receive his blessings or communion or forgiveness etc... would he deny them? I would like to think not.

If you look at the gospels where Jesus's acts and miracles are detailed, I don't think He ever "gave communion" to the multitudes or to people begging for his mercy. Did He? Am I wrong here? The Last/Mystical Supper with His disciples during Passion Week was different, but when He was healing and performing miracles, were people begging Him to receive communion, and if so, did He give it? The multitudes flocked to Jesus as their Savior to catch a glimpse of him (as Zacchaeus did), or to beg for his healing touch..... I don't remember any event where the multitudes begged him for Holy Communion. Jesus performed miracles where he fed the thousands with seemingly little food, but Holy Communion wasn't a part of the picture I don't think. Indeed, it didn't even exist until the Mystical Supper. Please, someone point out if I am wrong.

The importance of the Eucharist in Christian life is critical..... it's no coincidence that our Bishops always talk about how central it is to our faith. I believe that Jesus instituted the Eucharist as a means of keeping His Church intact. Reducing it to a "mere symbol" as many protestants have done, or to have it as a symbol of "outward unity" or "friendship" as the Roman Catholic church has done is not right. We are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves, but we are also commanded to uphold the Truth. It's unfortunate that some are offended that Orthodoxy does not practice "open Communion," but our first responsibility to Christ is to keep His church intact.

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"Anything that is worth accomplishing cannot be accomplished in a lifetime." - the Holy Fathers

Well, I think Queen's reading has some validly. Jesus did, in fact, share in table fellowship with a lot of very suprising folks.

I think that in many of the Gospels, these incidents are typological, and refer to the future institution of Holy Communion. But, I don't think that one must conclude (like the Episcopalians) that only open communion is consistent with Jesus's faith.

In the episodes recounted in the Gospels, Jesus was present at table in His natural body, just like others were present. But, after His death and resurrection, He becomes present in the shared Communion of those present, a Communion of faith as well as body that stretches back across the generations to Jesus Himself. To give Communion to those who, in fact, do not share (at least yet) that Faith, would be a contradiction. Communion is the embodiment of the life we share with, and which originates with, Jesus. Faith is central to that life.

Well, I think Queen's reading has some validly. Jesus did, in fact, share in table fellowship with a lot of very suprising folks.

I think that in many of the Gospels, these incidents are typological, and refer to the future institution of Holy Communion. But, I don't think that one must conclude (like the Episcopalians) that only open communion is consistent with Jesus's faith.

In the episodes recounted in the Gospels, Jesus was present at table in His natural body, just like others were present. But, after His death and resurrection, He becomes present in the shared Communion of those present, a Communion of faith as well as body that stretches back across the generations to Jesus Himself. To give Communion to those who, in fact, do not share (at least yet) that Faith, would be a contradiction. Communion is the embodiment of the life we share with, and which originates with, Jesus. Faith is central to that life.

Well, I think Queen's reading has some validly. Jesus did, in fact, share in table fellowship with a lot of very suprising folks.

I think that in many of the Gospels, these incidents are typological, and refer to the future institution of Holy Communion. But, I don't think that one must conclude (like the Episcopalians) that only open communion is consistent with Jesus's faith.

In the episodes recounted in the Gospels, Jesus was present at table in His natural body, just like others were present. But, after His death and resurrection, He becomes present in the shared Communion of those present, a Communion of faith as well as body that stretches back across the generations to Jesus Himself. To give Communion to those who, in fact, do not share (at least yet) that Faith, would be a contradiction. Communion is the embodiment of the life we share with, and which originates with, Jesus. Faith is central to that life.

Did Jesus give Holy Communion to Judas who did not share the Faith?

I will no speak of Your Mysteries to Your enemies, neither like Judas will I give You a kiss,....may the communion of Your Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgement, nor to my condemnation, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 09:15:38 AM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Well, I think Queen's reading has some validly. Jesus did, in fact, share in table fellowship with a lot of very suprising folks.

I think that in many of the Gospels, these incidents are typological, and refer to the future institution of Holy Communion. But, I don't think that one must conclude (like the Episcopalians) that only open communion is consistent with Jesus's faith.

In the episodes recounted in the Gospels, Jesus was present at table in His natural body, just like others were present. But, after His death and resurrection, He becomes present in the shared Communion of those present, a Communion of faith as well as body that stretches back across the generations to Jesus Himself. To give Communion to those who, in fact, do not share (at least yet) that Faith, would be a contradiction. Communion is the embodiment of the life we share with, and which originates with, Jesus. Faith is central to that life.

Yes, Christ shared His Last Supper only with the visible Church, worthy and unworthy members thereof.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Not that queen will read this, as the thread is six or so years old, but I still wanted to say that a wonderful reason that our priests don't give the Eucharist to non-Orthodox is because it can make them sick or kill them.

I have been Greek Orthodox all my life.When I got married, I married in the greek orthodox church.My husband was baptized in a protestant church, presbyterian I think, when he was a baby.

My husband was allowed to marry me in the church because he was a baptized christian and just had to show the papers (certificate) proving so.

My question is... since he had a greek orthodox wedding, can he receive communion?

thanks for any help.queen

What's required (same with all Orthodox Christians and traditional Christians) in Russia:

His baptism has to be confirmed with Chrismation, and I think this includes profession of obedience to Orthodox Church (I think babies don't have to make this statement), and then the practice of our Church is that people must go to confession first before Communion.

Not that queen will read this, as the thread is six or so years old, but I still wanted to say that a wonderful reason that our priests don't give the Eucharist to non-Orthodox is because it can make them sick or kill them.

Could you explain this a little for someone who does not understand why this would occur for non-E. Orthodox? Would it also occur for the Oriental Orthodox?

Not that queen will read this, as the thread is six or so years old, but I still wanted to say that a wonderful reason that our priests don't give the Eucharist to non-Orthodox is because it can make them sick or kill them.

Could you explain this a little for someone who does not understand why this would occur for non-E. Orthodox? Would it also occur for the Oriental Orthodox?

The Eucharist is very powerful medicine, and it has immense powers to heal for those who take it correctly. It also, like all medicines, can be devastating to those who are unprepared to receive it. That includes members of the Orthodox Church who are unprepared. Ultimately, we can't know whether the Eucharist will actually harm someone until it does--so we don't take chances. If someone is not in right standing with the Orthodox Church, we do not give them the Eucharist. It's for their protection and for their repentance.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Not that queen will read this, as the thread is six or so years old, but I still wanted to say that a wonderful reason that our priests don't give the Eucharist to non-Orthodox is because it can make them sick or kill them.

Could you explain this a little for someone who does not understand why this would occur for non-E. Orthodox? Would it also occur for the Oriental Orthodox?

The Eucharist is very powerful medicine, and it has immense powers to heal for those who take it correctly. It also, like all medicines, can be devastating to those who are unprepared to receive it. That includes members of the Orthodox Church who are unprepared. Ultimately, we can't know whether the Eucharist will actually harm someone until it does--so we don't take chances. If someone is not in right standing with the Orthodox Church, we do not give them the Eucharist. It's for their protection and for their repentance.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.