Criticism is always welcome. I want to create designs that resonate with all Marathon fans, so your opinion does count! And if for any reason you don't want to post here, you can always send me a PM.(from Post #102)

The Project GoalThis is an art project, not an attempt to create a playable scenario. Just as the characters underwent a design overhaul going from Marathon to Marathon 2: Durandal, so too will they evolve in their design for this project. The new look is intended to show the passage of time since the end of M2. Right now, the goal is to complete part of the visual design for this new and alternate era set in the M1/M2 universe.(from Post #11, Post #4, Post #9)

The StoryThe idea behind the story of Marathon 3: Salvation is that it picks up right where Marathon 2: Durandal left off, which (as a consequence) makes it an alternative to the story found in Marathon Infinity (in this universe, Infinity never happens). The goal with Salvation's story is to conclude the Marathon saga in a new and exciting way, while adhering to the original M1/M2 timeline.(from Post #9, Post # 18)

TitleThe title of this project began as Oraculum, and was changed to Salvation as of Post #113.

Last edited by Ares Ex Machina on Mar 16th '13, 20:08, edited 7 times in total.

Sure is an impressive rendition of the M2/Infinity design of the Marine. I am interested in seeing what kind of project you are working on.His muscle mass might be a tad overdone in my opinion but we all have our own views on what each character looks like in the trilogy. Good luck and I am looking forward to more.

sgraff wrote:Sure is an impressive rendition of the M2/Infinity design of the Marine. I am interested in seeing what kind of project you are working on.His muscle mass might be a tad overdone in my opinion but we all have our own views on what each character looks like in the trilogy.

Thanks! Hopefully it will be more clear in a future rendition, but that isn't muscle mass -- it's suit mass. This is not at all my perception of what the main character looks like in M2/Infinity, but rather a new design for a new era. Just as all the characters underwent a design overhaul going from M1 to M2 (with the exception of the Pfhor Fighter), so too will they evolve in their design for this project. The new look is intended to show the passage of time since the end of M2.

Ares Ex Machina wrote:Thanks! Hopefully it will be more clear in a future rendition, but that isn't muscle mass -- it's suit mass. This is not at all my perception of what the main character looks like in M2/Infinity, but rather a new design for a new era. Just as all the characters underwent a design overhaul going from M1 to M2 (with the exception of the Pfhor Fighter), so too will they evolve in their design for this project. The new look is intended to show the passage of time since the end of M2.

In that case, your project sounds very similar to my own. I am also doing one in which I am creating new designs to the various characters in the Marathon universe.However I am usually too busy with other non-marathon stuff to make much progress. Let alone taking the time to color my art.

By suit mass, are you implying the suit actually acts as extra muscle? If so, I am reminded of the suits used in Gantz which swell with muscle when the body stresses for it to be used.

sgraff wrote:By suit mass, are you implying the suit actually acts as extra muscle? If so, I am reminded of the suits used in Gantz which swell with muscle when the body stresses for it to be used.

The foremost purpose of this suit is to serve as a protective layer of armor, so naturally this makes it heavy. To compensate for this, the suit (which is based on human anatomy) operates like muscle and bears the weight of the armor. The suit stays in tune with the wearer's own muscles and nervous system, and will contract accordingly when the user's muscles contract. But it doesn't give the wearer any added strength per se. Instead, the user experiences the suit itself as having no weight, effectively increasing his endurance, and allowing for quicker and more fluid movements than would normally be possible while wearing such armor. In other words, the weight of the suit cancels out any strength it might bestow.

The end result is a soldier who is no stronger than he would be without the suit -- but he's far better protected, and at no cost to his speed or stamina.

fier wrote:Awesome pic. Now, what do you mean by new era?

Thanks, man. I meant a new era in terms of the passage of time in the Marathon universe, and how that passage of time is reflected in the overall visual look of the world (in this case, the visual look of the world being represented by characters, weapons, etc.). Enough time passes in between Marathon and Marathon 2: Durandal to warrant a change in the visual look of the world. And enough time passes in between Marathon 2: Durandal and Marathon 3: Oraculum to change the look of the world once again.

Dugit wrote:Where does Marathon 3: Oraculum stand? Is it a few years after M2 but before Rubicon? Or is it after Rubicon/Squadron, as in Rubicon, the Marine had no upgrades to his suit?

The idea behind the story of Marathon 3: Oraculum is that it's a direct sequel to Marathon 2: Durandal. In this universe, Marathon Infinity never happens (and neither does any other scenario that isn't created by Bungie). Marathon 3: Oraculum is meant to replace Marathon Infinity's plot with one that is less ambiguous, and (from a storytelling standpoint) to end the Marathon saga in a way that is much more dramatic and climactic. The only scenarios that have any connection or relevance to this story are Marathon and Marathon 2: Durandal.

Does this mean that we get to fight in the Human-Pfhor War? Will there be BoBs armed with more than pistols? This is the kind of scenario I've been waiting for, don't let this fall into the realm of never-finished-but-potentially-awesome games!

fier wrote:This is the kind of scenario I've been waiting for, don't let this fall into the realm of never-finished-but-potentially-awesome games!

I'm glad you like the idea! But you'll notice I haven't announced this project as a playable scenario, but rather as artwork. I'm taking things one step at a time, that way no one can say I never finished. Right now the goal is to complete part of the visual design. If we were to compare this project to the stages of a film, I would now be in the "development" stage. While the impact of this story would be highest if it were released as a playable scenario, it's too early in development to announce it as such.

But for simplicity, I'm going to answer these questions as if I've already made the commitment to develop the project into a playable scenario (since that's how you phrased the first question).

fier wrote:Does this mean that we get to fight in the Human-Pfhor War?

Ares Ex Machina wrote:The idea behind the story of Marathon 3: Oraculum is that it's a direct sequel to Marathon 2: Durandal. In this universe, Marathon Infinity never happens (and neither does any other scenario that isn't created by Bungie). Marathon 3: Oraculum is meant to replace Marathon Infinity's plot with one that is less ambiguous, and (from a storytelling standpoint) to end the Marathon saga in a way that is much more dramatic and climactic. The only scenarios that have any connection or relevance to this story are Marathon and Marathon 2: Durandal.

I'll give you a tip. You could do the same thing without trashing Infinity for being too "ambiguous" or somehow implying it wasn't a scenario created by Bungie. You'll get more interest if you don't advertise that your sense of drama and climax is so undeveloped you don't recognize it when you see it; and that your sense of a good game is limited to those that leave no possibility for interpretation or use of the imagination.

I mean, let's be honest, we already know that you're not Kirkpatrick, and you'll never beat "I know who you are."

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Treellama wrote:I'll give you a tip. You could do the same thing without trashing Infinity for being too "ambiguous" or somehow implying it wasn't a scenario created by Bungie. You'll get more interest if you don't advertise that your sense of drama and climax is so undeveloped you don't recognize it when you see it; and that your sense of a good game is limited to those that leave no possibility for interpretation or use of the imagination.

I mean, let's be honest, we already know that you're no Kirkpatrick, and you'll never beat "I know who you are."

To be fair, Rubicon, prior to its "X" release, also completely ignored Infinity. Then again, I complained about that at the time too... But mostly it sounds like this guy is planning on just duplicating Rubicon's efforts. Doesn't mean it will suck necessarily, but I'm not holding my breath. (And I do not approve of any fan product calling itself "[original title] [sequential number]". See also "Myth IV: The Wind Age", grrr).

And in retrospect, I do rather wish that Infinity, as awesome as it was, had done as Mark Levin interpreted it, and taken place "on the sidelines", ending back at the end of M2, just with the universe un-destroyed thanks to all of our time-traveling adventures. (Kinda like Eternal's relation to Infinity's final timeline, actually; though given people's reaction to that, maybe it's better that they didn't go that route).

Bungie was originally working on a proper Marathon 3 before they decided to do Myth instead, and so a part of me still doesn't buy Infinity as the third Marathon game, but more of a (very awesome) Marathon 2 expansion pack. Damn would I like to know what that Marathon 3 was going to be...

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-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All TradesDirector of the Xeventh Project, the team behind Eternal"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."

Pfhorrest wrote:Bungie was originally working on a proper Marathon 3 before they decided to do Myth instead, and so a part of me still doesn't buy Infinity as the third Marathon game, but more of a (very awesome) Marathon 2 expansion pack. Damn would I like to know what that Marathon 3 was going to be...

They were making a Marathon 3? I've never actually heard about that before. It would be interesting to see what work they had done on it, or what it would have turned out to be.

Pfhorrest wrote:And in retrospect, I do rather wish that Infinity, as awesome as it was, had done as Mark Levin interpreted it, and taken place "on the sidelines", ending back at the end of M2, just with the universe un-destroyed thanks to all of our time-traveling adventures.

Remind me again why you believe this isn't the case? I, too, like Mark's interpretation.

Even if it isn't exactly the same universe, the end result is probably similar enough not to matter (I'm reminded of Time and Punishment from Treehouse of Horror V)

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Treellama wrote:Remind me again why you believe this isn't the case? I, too, like Mark's interpretation.

Because in the last "branch" of Infinity (i.e. everything after the last dream sequence), events happen which did not happen in Marathon 2, such as Durandal and Thoth being merged into a single entity, and Lh'owon's sun being collapsed upon itself instead of exploding in a supernova. (I also recall someone demonstrating that that timeline derived from a timeline where you were not taken from Tau Ceti by Durandal, but rather captured by the Pfhor, as in the Despair timeline; but I can't find the post/chart/etc that argued that point, and I don't remember the details myself). On Aye Mak Sicur things are different from how they were on All Road Lead To Sol, and nothing indicates that the player jumps timelines over to All Roads Lead To Sol and the W'rkncacnter just doesn't exist in that timeline anymore, which seems to be what Levin's interpretation suggests.

Even if it isn't exactly the same universe, the end result is probably similar enough not to matter (I'm reminded of Time and Punishment from Treehouse of Horror V)

Yeah, I thought it was kinda clever how Rubicon X's prologue hand-waved Infinity as "reports from the survivors of the incident at Lh'owon were wildly contradictory" or some such. Basically: "yeah we don't really know/care what timeline this is in, but the S'pht are free, Durandal is still fighting the Pfhor, and the universe isn't destroyed. The rest is details."

-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All TradesDirector of the Xeventh Project, the team behind Eternal"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."

Pfhorrest wrote:(And I do not approve of any fan product calling itself "[original title] [sequential number]". See also "Myth IV: The Wind Age", grrr).

The only reason the number 3 is in there at all is to indicate how this story fits into the Marathon saga/timeline. The 3 is intended to help tip people off that this is a sequel to Marathon 2's story, and not Infinity's. And since everyone knows Infinity is the real and official third installment, then the 3 in Oraculum's title serves as an indicator that Oraculum's story can't possibly be anything but an alternative to Infinity's story.

Dugit wrote:I'm assuming there'll be nods to Rubicon, in terms of weaponry?

There will be no nods to any non-Bungie Marathon scenarios.

Treellama wrote:You could do the same thing without trashing Infinity for being too "ambiguous"

I trashed Infinity? When did that happen? I did say that Oraculum's story is less ambiguous than Infinity's, but that certainly doesn't mean I think Infinity is "too ambiguous". For the record, I do like Infinity. Given the story constraint that it absolutely had to take place on Lh'owon, it was brilliant and inventive. It's just that I've always wondered: what would it be like if Bungie created a story that picked up where Marathon 2 left off?

Treellama wrote:or somehow implying it wasn't a scenario created by Bungie.

That was just my way of answering Dugit's question about whether or not Oraculum's story would have any relevance to Rubicon. And what I was implying was that a considerable part of Infinity was created by Double Aught -- not Bungie.

Treellama wrote:You'll get more interest if you don't advertise that your sense of drama and climax is so undeveloped you don't recognize it when you see it;

EDIT: I have to say I'm not at all concerned with how well my sense of drama and climax is represented in a simple Q&A. This is just a place to show some of the art I've been doing and to discuss it -- it's not the delivery of the story itself. That having been said, I would be happy if you explained what led you to believe [my sense of drama and climax] is undeveloped and in what way you think I advertised it.

Also, my aim here isn't to generate interest in other people -- it's to inspire my imagination and hold my interest. I'm simply sharing what interests me with other people. If they like it, then that's great. If not, then they have no obligation to pay any attention to it (although constructive criticism is always appreciated).

Treellama wrote:and that your sense of a good game is limited to those that leave no possibility for interpretation or use of the imagination.

You know I'm a Marathon fan, and we both know the Marathon games leave plenty of possibility for interpretation and use of the imagination...so how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Treellama wrote:I mean, let's be honest, we already know that you're not Kirkpatrick, and you'll never beat "I know who you are."

When I was talking about ending the Marathon saga in a way that is more dramatic and climactic, I wasn't referring to the final ending screen; I was referring to the events in the story leading up to it.EDIT: In other words, I was talking about Oraculum itself as being a climactic ending to the saga, rather than the ending of Oraculum being climactic (that said, I wouldn't consider the ending as being one that isn't climactic).

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Pfhorrest wrote:Because in the last "branch" of Infinity (i.e. everything after the last dream sequence), events happen which did not happen in Marathon 2, such as Durandal and Thoth being merged into a single entity, and Lh'owon's sun being collapsed upon itself instead of exploding in a supernova.

I suppose a purist view would be that no deviation should happen aside from the consequences of events on the gravity station. No matter, this doesn't seriously affect the story of my own nearly-completed scenario.

(I also recall someone demonstrating that that timeline derived from a timeline where you were not taken from Tau Ceti by Durandal, but rather captured by the Pfhor, as in the Despair timeline; but I can't find the post/chart/etc that argued that point, and I don't remember the details myself).

I haven't seen this post/chart/etc! If you come across it, can you link to it?

I'm interested. Cool- another thing to be excited about! The next couple of years is going to be full of awesome new scenarios! TGI:BX, TL's one, Syndicate, Winter II, Oraculum, Nova, MPDX, Sundown, Halathon, Jack Hammer, Shadow, Marathon C, maybe even WMaiD and Vengeance... have I missed anything out?

Dugit wrote:So, where is the scenario going to take place? Some place not seen in Marathon 2? Will it start on Lh'owon as Marathon 2 ends, or will there be a noticeable gap between these two?

I don't want to disclose everything about the story at this point. I would like for you to have a few surprises, even if they are at the beginning! I will say it does take place somewhere not seen in Marathon 2, and that there is a noticeable gap in time.

Dugit wrote:If you want, I could write poetry and beta test for this scenario.

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but the project is not yet at that stage. There's nothing to test!

I just want to make sure you understand that Oraculum is not going to be a playable scenario at this point. Right now it's a concept, and I'm just developing some of the visual ideas at this stage.

Dugit wrote:I'm interested. Cool- another thing to be excited about! The next couple of years is going to be full of awesome new scenarios! TGI:BX, TL's one, Syndicate, Winter II, Oraculum, Nova, MPDX, Sundown, Halathon, Jack Hammer, Shadow, Marathon C, maybe even WMaiD and Vengeance... have I missed anything out?

Judging by your inclusion of Sundown, Jack Hammer, and Vengeance, I think you should add Enemi to the list.