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I wanted to thank you for (appropriately) referencing Wittgenstein the other day, but this one deserves especially strong kudos. So mad props to you, sir. I'm just not sure if you're channeling Douglas Adams or the regressive epistemology of the Münchhausen Trilemma. Either way, the resistance on both sides of this issue does make me wonder if folks sincerely believe it to be turtles all the way down...

Best,
Murray McPherson

Hey, at least someone gets some of my obscure references and influences. I'll point out this thread to my mom -- she still hasn't forgiven me for going to a very expensive liberal arts college for degrees in philosophy and religious studies. With a minor in political science (and even there I screwed up -- much of my emphasis was on the Soviet Political system -- Who, you say? Yup. Oops).

On a serious note it does go back to a that point often made by Wittgenstein as well as the rather extreme position taken if you're a fan of the Münchhausen Trilemma and the impossibility of any knowledge. Well, maybe better certain, non-trivial knowledge. Until we have a better physical understanding of what's going on it is bloody near impossible to have a reasoned discussion on a forum when the participants have very different models of what each word being used means.

Eventually it ends up sounding like this great kid -- one of my favorite 17 seconds of video *EVER*.

Most of the time when discussions get to this point that's exactly what I find my mind doing... The little homunculus in my head starts wandering about verdant imagined fields, enjoying the breeze then suddenly he is hit with an insight! I like turtles!

And if I was going to have a God, I'd choose Thor. He had a cool hammer.

Yup, that's my brain in action at its best...

Sorry, back to the serious discussion at hand of why all those idiots out there don't realize how absolutely wonderful each of our own constructed little worlds are for us.

Seriously there are lots of very sincere folk on all sides. I just make the same recommendation. Get out and try different things.

Or don't.

And don't forget your towel.

And remember -- we'll all be dead 100 years from now so kiss your kids, hug your friends, and get on with life.

...and there's an implicit premise in your post that a "complete martial arts system", whatever that is, is what we all want and need.

This is something I really don't get. When you buy a car, do you expect it to be the be-all and end-all car, the car that can do everything? Well, no doubt some people do. We call those people "crazy". Normal people just look for a car that's right for their purpose, whether that is transporting four kids to soccer practice or hauling blocks of cement to a building site or going as fast as you possibly can around a track.

Or, if you want to put it in a martial context, what's the "best" fighter? Gee, I don't know. Put me in one situation and I'll take Mongol light cavalry, put me in another situation and I'll take a seasoned bouncer, and in another I'm definitely going to want a Marine platoon sergeant.

Given that, for the large majority of us, our fighting really is purely theoretical, and any fighting we might possibly encounter is within a specific context, I don't get the endless froth and fury about a "complete martial arts system". Even if such a thing existed, which it doesn't, it's not what any of us needs. If someone finds something sufficient to their needs, why would they look elsewhere?

Best fighter... hmm. I'm going to have to go with the zerglings. Never liked having to strategize too much, just go all ZERG RUSH. So, okay, maybe playing Starcraft is about the closest many of us will come to an actual fight, or one where martial training is really necessary or expedient.

On the other hand, that means the practice of martial arts should at least be helping us out with everything else in life that we do actually do. So is aikido, which for most is a combined study of techniques of twisting people in funny ways without stopping their momentum with a cool peace and love philosophy to back it up, really offering the most it can, or could it offer more? I very much think it can offer more, and that's because in aikido we spend an awful lot of time worrying too much about we're doing to other people, rather than spending a lot of time on ourselves in isolation. It is not uncommon that I spend several hours a night just working in my own body, whereas I would not have thought to do that before or understood how IS could help me. I just could not really conceive how there were some issues of vital importance that could only really be trained outside the dojo, not in it. That alone is a huge beneficial change it has made to my practice.

From an efficiency stand-point, if you just want the benefits like moving better, exercise, better fitness, etc. just IS training by itself can give you that, in more concentrated form in a much shorter time, than the practice of techniques on other people, but without learning how to fight at all, hell, it'll probably make you a worse fighter by itself just because it'd make you too cocky about your non-existent ability to handle yourself. But without a real world benchmark to test your solely IS growth against, your IS growth will be stunted as well, a glass ceiling set because you never really have a surefire way of realizing just how incompetent you really are. So fighting complements IS exceedingly nicely, they feed eachother.

Group 2: "Aikido is missing something fundamental so I must go outside to find it."

A. It is nearly incomprehensible to Group 1 why Group 2 will look outside Aikido for something fundamental Group 2 believes is missing.

Insofar as this is true, this is a case of people in Group 1 being dumb, people in Group 2 being dumb, or both. Note the difference between "everything I need" and "everything everyone in the world needs".

Quote:

Keith Larman wrote:

B. It is nearly incomprehensible to Group 2 why Group 1 won't look outside Aikido for something fundamental Group 2 believes is missing.

Insofar as this is true, this is a case of people in Group 2 being dumb. It's like not being able to understand why everyone doesn't buy a Ford Windstar.

Quote:

Keith Larman wrote:

And since the whole concept of "is it missing?" depends on a whole lot of factors including personal expectation, definition of what *it* is, style, etc., I don't see anything necessarily contradictory about the two statements.

It depends first and foremost on the definition of "missing". Do you think that the Mona Lisa is "missing" a grass skirt and a coconut bra?

On the other hand, that means the practice of martial arts should at least be helping us out with everything else in life that we do actually do.

Why? Why would anyone have this expectation? I mean, if it helps you with other things in life, then great...but that's gravy. Why do you think that's what it must do "at least"? Do you expect your car to help you wash the dishes?

Why? Why would anyone have this expectation? I mean, if it helps you with other things in life, then great...but that's gravy. Why do you think that's what it must do "at least"? Do you expect your car to help you wash the dishes?

I don't expect my car to help me wash dishes. But at the same time a car has a function that is vastly more than looking pretty, at least for us common folk. It does many functional things that are of value to most people, like carry them and other people and even things that are not people, to other places, and prevents them from the unspeakable horrors of having to walk or run or bicycle anywhere. That and my car also needs to be affordable to maintain and fuel; it must pull its weight. So I would just hope we could ascribe a function to aikido that is more than just artistic endeavor or a self-contained time sink, especially when I, and I would think many others, actually do want more functional benefits from it, in addition to, not necessarily as a replacement for, artistic concerns.

Insofar as this is true, this is a case of people in Group 1 being dumb, people in Group 2 being dumb, or both. Note the difference between "everything I need" and "everything everyone in the world needs".

Insofar as this is true, this is a case of people in Group 2 being dumb. It's like not being able to understand why everyone doesn't buy a Ford Windstar.

It depends first and foremost on the definition of "missing". Do you think that the Mona Lisa is "missing" a grass skirt and a coconut bra?

It depends first and foremost on the definition of "missing". Do you think that the Mona Lisa is "missing" a grass skirt and a coconut bra?

now that you mentioned it, i have always been wondering why the Mona Lisa doesn't look quite right. the grass skirt should be ok, but wouldn't coconut bra be uncomfortable and scratchy? is that with or without under-wire support?

i was wondering if a person can be in the two groups at the same time, as in, Group 3: all of the above. as in, i go outside of aikido for stuffs in order to have everything i need inside aikido?

i was outside of aikido, then i found aikido and went inside, then i stepped outside, and tunnel back inside, then went out the back door, and climbed back in through the windows. sometimes i don't know whether i am in or out. some told me that i am outside the house, but i said i am inside my yard and i said you are trespassing. and i also said do you not see the sign that said "trespasser will be shot. survivor will be shot again."

now that you mentioned it, i have always been wondering why the Mona Lisa doesn't look quite right. the grass skirt should be ok, but wouldn't coconut bra be uncomfortable and scratchy? is that with or without under-wire support?

i was wondering if a person can be in the two groups at the same time, as in, Group 3: all of the above. as in, i go outside of aikido for stuffs in order to have everything i need inside aikido?

i was outside of aikido, then i found aikido and went inside, then i stepped outside, and tunnel back inside, then went out the back door, and climbed back in through the windows. sometimes i don't know whether i am in or out. some told me that i am outside the house, but i said i am inside my yard and i said you are trespassing. and i also said do you not see the sign that said "trespasser will be shot. survivor will be shot again."

Walking along an empty road one day, the Sufi wise man Mulla Nasruddin noticed a troop of horsemen riding toward him. His imagination started to work; he saw himself captured or robbed or killed and frightened by this thought he bolted, climbed a wall into a graveyard, and lay down in an open grave to hide. Puzzled at his bizzare behaviour, the horsemen - honest travellers - followed him. They found him stretched out, tense, and shaking. "What are you doing in that grave? We saw you run away. Can we help you? Why are you here in this place?" "Just because you can ask a question does not mean that there is a straightforward answer to it," said Nasruddin, who now realized what had happened. "It all depends upon your viewpoint. If you must know, however, I am here because of you - and you are here because of me!"

now that you mentioned it, i have always been wondering why the Mona Lisa doesn't look quite right. the grass skirt should be ok, but wouldn't coconut bra be uncomfortable and scratchy? is that with or without under-wire support?

The scratchy part is on the outside. No underwires needed, that's the beauty of the coconut bra.

Quote:

Phi Truong wrote:

i was wondering if a person can be in the two groups at the same time, as in, Group 3: all of the above. as in, i go outside of aikido for stuffs in order to have everything i need inside aikido?

Oh sure, but I think the reference was to the two groups who participate most enthusiastically in this debate, and who seem to have this mutual incomprehension block.

I guess you could say that my perspective is of someone who understands that there are only 24 hours in a day, and who doesn't put any of the goals articulated in this or other threads at the top of my list. There's nothing wrong with them, but I've got wood to stack and a garden to put to bed for the winter. I've got a job that I want to keep, and in order to do that, I have to make sure my company does well, and in order to do THAT, I've got to put in more than just a token appearance at work. IMO, it's part of being a grownup. No, you don't get to have everything you could possibly want. No matter how much money or talent or resources you have, you still only have 24 hours in the day. You can go inside or outside and chase all the rabbits you want...but when you get to a certain point in life, you look at the perfectly good rabbit in your hand, and decline to go off chasing after the rabbit in that field over there on the vague suspicion (or even the enthusiastic endorsement of others) that it might be better.

Oh sure, but I think the reference was to the two groups who participate most enthusiastically in this debate, and who seem to have this mutual incomprehension block.

I guess you could say that my perspective is of someone who understands that there are only 24 hours in a day, and who doesn't put any of the goals articulated in this or other threads at the top of my list. There's nothing wrong with them, but I've got wood to stack and a garden to put to bed for the winter. I've got a job that I want to keep, and in order to do that, I have to make sure my company does well, and in order to do THAT, I've got to put in more than just a token appearance at work. IMO, it's part of being a grownup. No, you don't get to have everything you could possibly want. No matter how much money or talent or resources you have, you still only have 24 hours in the day. You can go inside or outside and chase all the rabbits you want...but when you get to a certain point in life, you look at the perfectly good rabbit in your hand, and decline to go off chasing after the rabbit in that field over there on the vague suspicion (or even the enthusiastic endorsement of others) that it might be better.

So excelling inside nor searching outside are not priorities for you, because you're busy with other aspects of your life, but you still have time to put up with us rabble? We're really that important you? That's rather sweet of you!

If you've got finite time, is running in the same circles (kinda literally) really a fulfilling way to spend it? Is it really that impossible to budget just a little time to explore something new on occasion? I think there is a positive selection bias at work for AikiWeb: we wouldn't be here discussing this if we didn't strongly care enough about it to be challenged by or challenge others' opinions about it. And, well, you're here, so I dunno what to make of it that you care enough to debate the matter, but not enough to explore it in the flesh.

I not writing for sympathy or empathy. I really want to know. Please try not to write back if you have nasty things to say. Let's discuss these ideas without being mean.

I rarely bother with aikiweb anymore since Mike and Dan appeared but this post caught my eye.

If you look back to when they were first around you'll prob see me involved in a bunch of disagreements with them. Their position was always 'aikido has lost aiki/IS' my position was 'this is simply not true, rare it may be but it is still there'. Their rebuttal was 'well you clearly don't know what aiki/IS is', mine was 'actually I do but apparently only people who have been to your seminars are allowed to say they understand it'. Hence we face ever decreasing circles of idiocy from all parties, and in particular I received a bunch of abusive PMs from people for daring to question Dan's skills and abilities (I did not question them btw). Made my responses rather more trollish than I'd have liked so I left aikiweb pretty much. Not intending to critisize anyone here, rather the whole situation was something I just couldn't be bothered with anymore.

Dan and Mike certainly seem to have things to offer that a lot of people find very interesting and worthwhile, and I certainly have no problem with going outside of aikido to bring things back in, many (most?) of the great aikido teachers I can think of have done some of this, from my lineage, Koichi Tohei for one, plus my own teacher Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei has spent some time with aspects of Shinkage Ryu and Daito Ryu when he teaches. I've also spent time in various CMA type places whenever I can and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Kendo too.

Basically I feel like O Sensei left us with a big box of presents in the shape of the aikido techniques he'd adapted from Daito Ryu and elsewhere and it may take us several generations of students to unwrap them all and fully understand them. Often going outside of aikido to someone else who has been playing with a particular toy for several years before you started unwrapping it can save you having to read the manual. That person can (ideally I suppose) be your aikido instructor, but I see no reason why it can't be someone like Dan or Mike either.

Cheers

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Do you really feel you can do everything that your teacher can do? Or at least will be able to do everything?

With my first teacher then I'm pretty sure that at some stage I would have been able to do everything he could given enough time but then he died and everything went slightly pear-shaped... Thankfully I'd already met someone who melted my brain, another teacher, and the only one in Aikido terms to have ever done this... I spent about 10 years or so training with him usually once a year and was never ever convinced I'd be able to do what he could. I would listen, ask and try to do what he was saying but I didn't have the basics explained to me in a way to allow me to listen to what he was saying to me. I asked him who I should go to... He mentioned Mike Sigman would be good for my Aikido and so I met up with Mike. Since meeting Mike my understanding of what Ikeda sensei is doing makes complete sense, he taught me how to do my abc's (still working on them) but because I am starting to understand the letters behind the words I'm beginning to understand the bigger picture and how to interpret the sentences. Without Mike, I really don't think I'd be any closer to figuring any of this out. So my recommendation came from a Shihan to go outside his art to get this stuff.

I have met Dan too by the way. But, Mike's stuff made perfect sense to me, Dan's I struggled with - I was trying to not incorporate anything I'd been told my Mike when learning from Dan and I really struggled. I felt like he wasn't taking things down to an absolute basic mechanical level like Mike does, YMMV. Mike has unlocked a number of things I'd been struggling with for over 10 years in one weekend. All my students are crazy about learning this stuff too and we can't get enough of it. I tried to work on Dan's things a number of times and I liked some of his phrases but I soon found myself falling back to Mike's methods, they just made more sense to me and show very real progress.

I can't believe you can't consider stepping outside to see what's there. Your choice obviously. I don't mean anything negative about your teacher but I can only assume you've never gotten hold of someone that has 'the goods' because when you do, it changes your perspective. My first teacher was and always will be very special to me, he was like a father to me, but, he did not have internal strength. I think he'd have liked Mike though.

So excelling inside nor searching outside are not priorities for you, because you're busy with other aspects of your life, but you still have time to put up with us rabble? We're really that important you? That's rather sweet of you!

Wow. I just don't know where to begin with everything that is so desperately wrong with this paragraph.

Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote:

If you've got finite time, is running in the same circles (kinda literally) really a fulfilling way to spend it?

How do you know I'm "running in the same circles"? Perhaps the same authority that has apparently gifted you with the power to define what "excelling" is, and to judge whether or not it is a "priority" for someone else, also gave you the authority to define whether or not someone is "running in the same circles"?

Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote:

Is it really that impossible to budget just a little time to explore something new on occasion?

I explained this once already, Lee; did you really not get it? It's really not that hard, and the difference between "impossible" and "taking resources that I choose to spend elsewhere" is really not that subtle.

I really think you need to work on your diction.

Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote:

I think there is a positive selection bias at work for AikiWeb: we wouldn't be here discussing this if we didn't strongly care enough about it to be challenged by or challenge others' opinions about it.

You're wrong.

Quote:

Lee Salzman wrote:

And, well, you're here, so I dunno what to make of it that you care enough to debate the matter, but not enough to explore it in the flesh.

I'm not debating anything. I'm saying how it is. You can take it or leave it, but I'm not in the business of making sense to you. I'm not interested in jumping on the IS bandwagon; life's too short for me to do everything I might be somewhat interested in, I have to pick and choose, and frankly, there are some toxic personalities waving that banner that I don't want to have anything to do with. That's all the reason I need not to go there.

Mary, you know what, re-reading my statements. I sincerely apologize. I was categorically a dickhead and had no right to say what I said. I should have considered what I said more thoroughly, but I will avoid pursuing the matter because I don't want to dig my hole any further. Okay?

Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote:

Wow. I just don't know where to begin with everything that is so desperately wrong with this paragraph.

How do you know I'm "running in the same circles"? Perhaps the same authority that has apparently gifted you with the power to define what "excelling" is, and to judge whether or not it is a "priority" for someone else, also gave you the authority to define whether or not someone is "running in the same circles"?

I explained this once already, Lee; did you really not get it? It's really not that hard, and the difference between "impossible" and "taking resources that I choose to spend elsewhere" is really not that subtle.

I really think you need to work on your diction.

You're wrong.

I'm not debating anything. I'm saying how it is. You can take it or leave it, but I'm not in the business of making sense to you. I'm not interested in jumping on the IS bandwagon; life's too short for me to do everything I might be somewhat interested in, I have to pick and choose, and frankly, there are some toxic personalities waving that banner that I don't want to have anything to do with. That's all the reason I need not to go there.

It has been said: practise and practise hard, do not judge others or speak bad of other teachers.

Everybody is on their own path to find their Way. It is a valid question to ask why someone would search outside Aikido for IS. One might expect a true/sincere answer without judgement. There is nothing to gain only to loose here...

Earlier I have said that people do not know what they are looking for...nobody really responded to that.

When people start to look (read/think/feel) around because of these discussions that is just great. They might learn what they are really looking for, or find that they have already found it.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.www.aikido-makato.nl

I rarely bother with aikiweb anymore since Mike and Dan appeared but this post caught my eye.
If you look back to when they were first around you'll prob see me involved in a bunch of disagreements with them. Their position was always 'aikido has lost aiki/IS' my position was 'this is simply not true, rare it may be but it is still there'. Their rebuttal was 'well you clearly don't know what aiki/IS is', mine was 'actually I do but apparently only people who have been to your seminars are allowed to say they understand it'. Hence we face ever decreasing circles of idiocy from all parties, and in particular I received a bunch of abusive PMs from people for daring to question Dan's skills and abilities (I did not question them btw). Made my responses rather more trollish than I'd have liked so I left aikiweb pretty much. Not intending to critisize anyone here, rather the whole situation was something I just couldn't be bothered with anymore.

Dan and Mike certainly seem to have things to offer that a lot of people find very interesting and worthwhile, and I certainly have no problem with going outside of aikido to bring things back in, many (most?) of the great aikido teachers I can think of have done some of this, from my lineage, Koichi Tohei for one, plus my own teacher Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei has spent some time with aspects of Shinkage Ryu and Daito Ryu when he teaches. I've also spent time in various CMA type places whenever I can and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Kendo too.

Basically I feel like O Sensei left us with a big box of presents in the shape of the aikido techniques he'd adapted from Daito Ryu and elsewhere and it may take us several generations of students to unwrap them all and fully understand them. Often going outside of aikido to someone else who has been playing with a particular toy for several years before you started unwrapping it can save you having to read the manual. That person can (ideally I suppose) be your aikido instructor, but I see no reason why it can't be someone like Dan or Mike either.

Cheers
Mike

Mike
I think you misscharacterized both of our comments. Mike, in particular has argued that there is IS in Ki aikido to one degree or another and spoke favorably of the efforts of a teacher he met.
For my part I have spoken favorably of Shirata, Mochizuki, Saotome and Ikeda. My feelings on Shirata and Mochizuki going back to the aikido list days. So I think you let other issues cloud your judgement there.
To be clear, I think IP/aiki is rare as well, and I also do not think it is fully developed in aikido. I haven't seen anyone in the art that I think displayed what I consider a fully developed skill set in IP/aiki.

I think the enthusiasm some feel at discovering this work and being able to do certain things has gotten the better of them. Enthusiasm is great, but there is no need to be rude to each other. Everyone who is out meeting is having a great time, laughing, sharing and learning. We need to do a better job here. I have seen some outrageous things being said and done (some of the recent threads and comments aimed at me are unprecedented) and brings out the worst in all of us. I keep hoping everyone can dial it down.

Mary's question:Why do people search outside Aikido for IS?
Has a simple answer. They haven't found what they are looking for in Aikido.

Beyond that the only debate is whether all that is available is even in Aikido. Some say it is, others that it isn't. Most are not qualified to offer an opinion, since they have never ventured outside the box to form a credible opinion worth listening to. It is a bit much to see people argue that Aikido is complete, having never been anywhere else. It becomes even more difficult when those claiming all you need is in the art...continue to be completely undone by those stating there is more to be had than is taught in the art.
Since so many Shihan have gone outside the art -specifically to learn IP/aiki-it is a losing bet to argue that it is not needed. Since aiki..do is based on aiki, an ages old concept, it stands to reason that people would look to the worlds arts for comparisons. With teachers going out and meeting people like; Sam Chin, Mike, Ark, Me, and others, the flat truth is that the face to face meetings are supporting the arguments that there are at least other...if not better...methods for training IS and aiki outside the art. Goodness gracious there is an eighty year history of teachers going outside of aikido to learn, including the founder. They all discussed it. What's the big deal?

Mary's question:Why do people search outside Aikido for IS?
Has a simple answer. They haven't found what they are looking for in Aikido.

IMHO, the more I play with this stuff (IS), the more I see that its implied or indirectly taught in Aikido and that most of us (okay, I) missed it (often even the ones thinking they are teaching it). I like the direct teaching and coming back and attempting to apply it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!

I think that nobody really knows Aikido but me. I don't think that anybody's opinion is valid except mine. This is what I hear in these posts. Internal Strength is very important. It is not the only thing in Aikido that is important. There are a myriad of principles that make up the art of Aikido. What O Sensei was doing was, and continues to be, a mystery to those who trained with him and to those who train in the art today. Anyone who thinks they have it figured out is kidding themselves. Further, Aikido is individualistic and each person must develop it in his/her own fashion for his/her own purposes. No one will ever be like O Sensei. He was O Sensei. No one will ever be like anyone else.

I like to play trumpet. I used to make a living doing so. But the gossip, backbiting, bickering and judgmental attitudes finally got to be too much. Now I teach kids trumpet. I like it and so do they. Aikido should be this way. We need to avoid pronouncing ourselves and our opinions regarding any aspect of the art to be superior to those of others. We need to train more and argue less.

Is Dan Harden an Aikidoka? I don't know. Does he have knowledge and teaching skills that help others? From what I understand he does. Shouldn't that be the end of it? Dan's teaching and skills are his and those who benefit from them are fortunate. What is the need for he said/she said arguments.

I think that most of this has been said before but I just couldn't help myself.

I've only been working on this IP/Aiki stuff for a year, and I speak only for myself (and I'm pretty sure I know nothing of which I speak anyway) But, since around 2007, after about 13 years of aikido training, I found myself with this hunch, or just an odd sense that I was missing something important. For example, I just kept thinking that funakogi undo must hold some important clue to something that I was missing. I had nothing really on which to base this hunch, but it was there, always in the back of my mind - that there was something more and I wasn't getting it. I was in a slump aikido-wise and felt I was not growing. I must also admit that I was not getting to train with my teachers and senpai often enough, and that was no good. Then one day, after our group had held a seminar with my teacher, I was getting changed in the locker room (we train in a local tennis club) and an elderly Chinese gentleman, noticing my keikogi asked what I was doing. Aikido, I said and he asked me to show him a bit. For some reason, the first thing I showed him was funakogi undo. "Oh!" says he, "Tai chi! I taught tai chi for 30 years!" Stuff happened then and I never got the man's number and I haven't seen him since, but something crystalized for me in that moment. I wanted to know more and I began searching "outside" aikido. I'm still engaged in that search, and I'm enjoying it immensely. I don't see it as "outside" at all. The kakejiku that hangs in the dojos of our group is just the kanji AI and KI. A Zen monk made the original for the head of our organization. He asked the monk, "Why didn't you add the 'DO' at the end?" The monk told him, "Well, everyone has to find their own DO." True story and I always liked it and I'm trying, with greater or lesser success to do just that. The IS/Aiki guys that I've met seem an enthusiastic, dedicated and gracious bunch and they seem to be searchers too - really looking to find their "DO." I'm not trying to sell anybody anything; just having fun.

Mary, you know what, re-reading my statements. I sincerely apologize. I was categorically a dickhead and had no right to say what I said. I should have considered what I said more thoroughly, but I will avoid pursuing the matter because I don't want to dig my hole any further. Okay?

Hey, not to worry. It's like most things re: the internet: if we met in person, a whole lot would be clearer and more understandable. Maybe we'll be able to do that some day; in the meantime, of course all is forgiven.

Mike
I think you misscharacterized both of our comments. Mike, in particular has argued that there is IS in Ki aikido to one degree or another and spoke favorably of the efforts of a teacher he met.
For my part I have spoken favorably of Shirata, Mochizuki, Saotome and Ikeda. My feelings on Shirata and Mochizuki going back to the aikido list days. So I think you let other issues cloud your judgement there.
To be clear, I think IP/aiki is rare as well, and I also do not think it is fully developed in aikido. I haven't seen anyone in the art that I think displayed what I consider a fully developed skill set in IP/aiki.

Not quite how I remember it, this post for example Mike calls Tohei's methods "pretty vague" amongst other things http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=65. From memory of the discussions he was implying here and elsewhere that Tohei Sensei's methods were not what he was referring to as IP/aiki. For the record I'd agree that they are "pretty vague", but only if your only real understanding of them has come from a small number of seminars. The post I've dug out is not a particularly great example of the sort of stuff I'm talking about but the best I can find in 2 minutes. I'm going mostly from my recollection here. Maybe Mike changed his mind at some point after I gave up on aikiweb.

To be totally fair, it could be my recollection failing me (wouldn't be the first time). Plus I'm in danger here of going off topic and have no interest in arguing on the internet about stuff posted 6 years ago. Next time you're in the UK maybe I'll see if I can make it along, it'd be nice to talk about it rather than type about it

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

From memory of the discussions he was implying here and elsewhere that Tohei Sensei's methods were not what he was referring to as IP/aiki. For the record I'd agree that they are "pretty vague", but only if your only real understanding of them has come from a small number of seminars.
Mike

Mike
I agree there was a level of IS/IP/Aiki in Tohei Sensei methods, looking back I can see some of that. The problem lies in what was passed on and in the abilities of Tohei Sensei to effectively transmit his understanding. I talked with an old friend in Hawaii (Roy) last night about this and ask the question about his memories of Tohei Sensei and of our first instructor's abilities in these areas. We both agreed that Tohei Sensei was like pushing on a wall. I can't seem to remember if there was any give at all. We both agreed that he had wrists like 4" steel pipes and a presence about him that you could feel. I didn't get this from the folks he brought with him and I didn't get this from the senior instructors that I came in contact with back then. To me this is a transmission issue on his part. As very few could speak Japanese in those days listening to talks was 5 minutes of Tohei Sensei explaining and a five word translation from the translator. As for us then it was understanding...I really don't know what Tohei Sensei said,,,,just the "Tohei Sensei said relax completely" from the translator and for the most part we then got 20 word explanations from our instructors later. If this is not enough for a person and you can't self-develop to some level that is satisfying, then you need to go outside to find your answers.
Gary