The centuries-long, Satanic, ritual child abuse is more and more exposed. The talk radio station I listen to in the car has a commercial called "Catholic Moments." It is usually nice, and sometimes biblically-correct messaging. But periodically they talk about all the problems the RCC faces, then, amazingly, contend it is nonetheless OK b/c the RCC is the only church sanctioned by God, in that it is the only one where the real blood and body of Christ are in the eucharist. So no matter the wickedness . . . .

On June 20, Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, on the order of Pope Francis, prohibited former Cardinal McCarrick from public ministry after an investigation by the New York archdiocese found an accusation of sexual abuse of a minor was “credible and substantiated.” That same day,the public learned that the Archdiocese of Newark and the Diocese of Metuchen in New Jersey had received three accusations of sexual misconduct involving adults against McCarrick. Since then media reports have written of victims of the abuse, spanning decades, include a teenage boy, three young priests or seminarians, and a man now in his 60s who alleges McCarrick abused him from the age of 11. The Pope later accepted McCarrick’s resignation from the College of Cardinals.

In comments to the media Aug. 25, Viganò said his main motivation for writing his testimony now was to“stop the suffering of the victims, to prevent new victims and to protect the Church: only the truth can make her free.”

We know the problem of child abuse has spanned decades within the Catholic Church, but it appears the sexual abuse also includes young seminarians and priests. So the Pope's solution in this case (Cardinal McCarrick) was to prohibit him from public ministry. It seems as though that sanction was later lifted even though this man was a serial predator and the whole thing was covered up evidently to protect the image of the Pope and the church.

“It was only when he was forced by the report of the abuse of a minor, again on the basis of media attention, that he took action [regarding McCarrick] to save his image in the media,” wrote Viganò.

My question is....how can this type of sin be stopped? Sexual abuse of a minor is a crime and must be reported to law enforcement. Is the Vatican exempt from the law?

Abiding in His Word wrote:My question is....how can this type of sin be stopped? Sexual abuse of a minor is a crime and must be reported to law enforcement. Is the Vatican exempt from the law?

I don't see how the Vatican itself can be punished by the law as they are sovereign nation status. Individuals can be prosecuted, implications of the popes involvement can devastate the Church and bring great harm to all Christians I believe. Perhaps this might be the beginning of persecution of Christians in all nations as a result.

God Bless You

David

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

The common denominator in that young boys are often the victim. There is an undercurrent of homosexuality within the RCC. Not that all homosexuals are pedophiles, but there does appear to be a link. I think if priests were allowed to marry, a lot of this would go away.

Jericho wrote: I think if priests were allowed to marry, a lot of this would go away.

Neither Jesus nor Paul were married.

Throughout the broader evangelical world, many married pastors with children are pedophiles.

Christa Brown has documented SBC predators for years at Stop Baptist Predators. She has only uncovered the tip of the iceberg. She knows it. I believe that we evangelicals better get ready. Our day is coming, sooner rather than later. Evangelicals will find that marriage, children and divinity school are often sought as covers by predators looking to harm our children. It is time to wise up.

True, but I don't think it's for everyone. Paul said as much himself "I’m telling those who are single and widows that it’s good for them to stay single like me. But if they can’t control themselves, they should get married, because it’s better to marry than to burn with passion." (1Co 7:8-9)

My point being is you had family men as priests, I think there would be fewer incidents like these. It wouldn't rule out the possibility for abuse altogether. But I do think it would help. Just my opinion.

I am retired now, but, when I was working, one of my largest clients was the Catholic Diocese in our area. I worked with the administration and priests often, as we upgraded communication equipment and computers throughout the parrish's, and in the rectories where the priests lived. The things that I saw throughout the entire system, were so disheartening it was both astonishing and heartbreaking. The entire culture was so NOT Christian, I was often dumbfounded. I have never been cursed out so violently or so mistreated as I was by the Priests. It wasn't just one bad apple either, it was rampant. Some of the things I personally observed was alcohol abuse, temper tantrums with actual rages and profanity that was off the charts. I dreaded every time I had to call on any of my Parrish's, but, these guys really let their hair down (and not in a good way), once they got home to the Rectory. This doesn't have anything to do with the topic of abuse, but, in my own mind, it isn't a leap from what I observed to other serious and unacceptable behaviours.

Here's the thing.We ....the entire human race....need to stop talking about this stuff as though it's a distasteful thing and start literally imagining it....seeing it happen. These grown men are literally taking our children, closing doors behind themselves and taking their clothes, dignity, humanity AND CHILDHOOD away from these young ones.

I know a life of betrayal and the results are a very hard time trusting not just the people that did what these men are doing.....but anyone at all.

These are physical acts which are criminal. Discussing them like they're white collar annoys me. Why.....WHY......WHY......aren't these horrible people going to jail? Its disgusting enough that they're still carrying titles that say they are servants of God....THAT is a disgrace beyond words, but.....in the here and now, they are real live criminals and they should have been arrested a long time ago.

The pope is a despicable human being. DESPICABLE and if I got my hands on his robe, I wouldn't do anything with it but wash my dogs feet.....

Jail is where criminals go.....and these popes that think they're going to heaven for serving the Lord ....well, I say they should be in a jail cell here and now.....because they are raping the innocents.......physically, mentally, emotionally....and that is causing these innocents to lose trust in humanity....especially when coupled with the fact that humanity sees ANY reason why they shouldn't be in the jails....

We should not be fighting for our popes, we should be fighting for our kids.

A very good friend of mine has a brother who wanted to enter into the priesthood. He started at the seminary . He said the majority of students and priests/teachers were homosexuals. He went on a ski trip with them and never went back after that. He has never discussed what happened there but it wasn't anything good.

Abiding in His Word wrote:I just want to make a distinction between homosexual acts between two consenting adults and sexual acts committed on a vulnerable, innocent child. One is illegal and a crime and the other is not.

Yes Abiding, but there appears to be a connection between homosexuality and pederasty. Per this study:

Previous investigations have indicated that the ratio of sex offenders against female children vs. offenders against male children is approximately 2:1, while the ratio of gynephiles [men attracted to women] to androphiles [men attracted to men] among the general population is approximately 20:1. . . . Using phallometric test sensitivities to calculate . . . true pedophiles among . . . sex offenders . . . and taking into consideration previously reported mean numbers of victims per offender group, the ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles was calculated to be approximately 11:1. This suggests that the resulting proportion of true pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1556756

If I understand this correctly, heterosexual males outnumber homosexual males 20:1, but heterosexual pedophiles outnumber homosexual pedophiles only 11:1. Meaning homosexual development results in pedophilia twice as often as heterosexual development does. This is nothing new. In ancient Greece the preferred form of homosexuality was between men and boys. And yes, it doesn't mean all homosexuals are attracted to boys, but the ratio would suggest a correlation. Note that Resurrection Torchlight mentioned that homosexuality was quite rampant in the seminary. It's no coincidence that the majority of these incidents involve men with young boys.

I just want to make a distinction between homosexual acts between two consenting adults and sexual acts committed on a vulnerable, innocent child. One is illegal and a crime and the other is not.

Please note the distinction is between two consenting adults... Regardless of their sexual orientation, if the sexual interaction is consensual, there is no crime.

Also regardless of the sexual orientation of the abuser/predator, if such sexual acts are committed with a minor, there is a crime.

In other words, the determining factor is whether both the age and the consent (or lack of) and/or use of force....not the sexual orientation.

ETA: One factor that makes sexual abuse of a child/minor so insidious is the "grooming" techniques used by predators. If you are unfamiliar with this term, a Google search (sexual predator grooming techniques) will provide all you need to know and bring an awareness of how devious this crime is and why it is often very difficult to recognize.

Also....

We need to be careful about the graphic components of this whole topic....

Not that it excuses . . . but may provide at least a small measure of understanding,

In some cases, pedophilia is a result of early victimization.

The victim of abuse seeks to repeat the abuse for the purpose of somehow getting over it, not that this works, but it's a way that some people react. Among those, some will repeat the abuse, except this time as the abuser. That attempts to re-frame the original act into something more acceptable, less painful, except, again, it doesn't work. And there are other dynamics that occur also.

SOME abused become abusers and some do not....but, even if they dont become abusers, they live a sad and lonely life having much difficulty opening up to any other person and finding themselves confused about how to trust (because other people tell them they don't trust anyone and they try to figure that out, but in a way that retains some form of protection of self). Then again, the magnitude of hurt and betrayal never goes away, even after years in therapy....and any onset of a thing or things that causes mistrust again only stirs the pot and this victim has to go through all sorts of head stuff all over again.

Its horrid and these predators should be in jail. settlements of a civil nature are fine AFTER criminal charges are implemented, and for the life of me, I cannot understand why every single one of these dirtbags isn't doing time. I am so offended.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about that! I was only speaking of those who choose that way.

but, even if they don't become abusers, they live a sad and lonely life having much difficulty opening up to any other person and finding themselves confused about how to trust (because other people tell them they don't trust anyone and they try to figure that out, but in a way that retains some form of protection of self). Then again, the magnitude of hurt and betrayal never goes away, even after years in therapy....and any onset of a thing or things that causes mistrust again only stirs the pot and this victim has to go through all sorts of head stuff all over again.

That is so often very true! I know that for a fact.

But I also know - as a fact - that God can even heal those deep of wounds. Modern psychiatry says this doesn't happen. But I know that it does. And even the most depraved brutality inflicted upon us turns out to be, in the end, acts of God's love towards His redeemed, whom He did foreknow. And we can feel loved, as we come to understanding.

mark s wrote:But I also know - as a fact - that God can even heal those deep of wounds. Modern psychiatry says this doesn't happen. But I know that it does. And even the most depraved brutality inflicted upon us turn out to be, in the end acts of God's love towards His redeemed, whom He did foreknow. And we can feel loved at the end, as we come to understanding.

I agree that the pain of those deep wounds can be healed, but traumatic incidents leave lasting reactions, physically, mentally, and/or emotionally. There are many facets of PTSD that surface when triggered by sounds, smells, visuals, etc. I still suffer hyper-vigilance when someone enters the room under normal circumstances and I'm unaware that they are on their way and this is some 50+ yrs. since the incidents.

Of course, Jesus heals the pain and sorrow of violence directed at our person, but the memory and the unintended reactions may remain. Often the memories of trauma (minus the sorrow and pain) are what makes us useful in the Kingdom to bring us to an understanding of others who are in need of prayer, comfort, and encouragement.

Yes, much can remain. And just the same much or all can be healed, as God wills.

What I've found is that in coming to understand the neurological effects of child abuse trauma, I've been able to demystify the aftereffects, and to see them for what they are, body responses.

Fear is often present in abuse survivors, however, fear is not of the new creation. So it is a body response. Fear can be appropriate. The fear of God is spiritual. Other fear is not. Fear of a coming car is a useful body response, and requires quick action. Fear of being attacked because I was attacked, in my case, over a 17 year period ending 40 years ago, and not because there is an actual current threat, is not a useful body response. So I recognize it for what it is and turn my attention back to my Healer.

Yes, sometimes the feelings remain, but it turns out that they are of no consequence to me.

I've realized that I've given vast portions of my time and energy and other resources towards what are, in the end, body responses - the works of the flesh. And I'm unwilling to give more. I want to spend the rest of my time doing the work of the Lord, and to not let these body responses, fear, hatred, compulsions, whatever, steal one more minute from my life.

Anytime something rears up, my intent is to look at it, weigh it, and accept or reject, and I pretty much find there is a Bible passage to put into the mind to either counter the thoughts and feelings that are not useful, and to support those that are, as I live to follow the leading of Christ.

At the end of the day, I'm not my body, I'm not the person who is afraid. That is the son of Adam. I'm a son of God. It's not me. But it's mine to control. Knowing these things has been extremely useful in working towards control.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Yes, God is able to forgive one that molests a child but don't think for a minute he's just going to let it slide. He will repay.

As for healing, I know that God is able to heal fear that results from child abuse, but with that being said, they are called FORMATIVE YEARS for a reason. Every Trauma during childhood forms us into the person we will be as an adult. Being molested can ruin your identity as a person and make you hate yourself, because you feel damaged and disgusted. It can kill your confidence and cause you to shrink back and never fully become the person that you could have been.

There's really no glossing over it, but I guess a person cannot fully understand how it feels unless it happens to them.

I was re-reading your words, something you said really caught my attention, about never becoming the person I could have been.

I've had to reconcile my past and my God, because they didn't seem to fit together. God is love, my childhood was tragic. At least, that was how I used to see it. Now I see it differently.

I started with my own experiences - NPD Primary Caregiver Abuse (Mom), Alcoholic Primary Caregiver Abuse (Dad), a duration of Childhood Sexual Abuse (some guy), and what came after, my so-called life. And this was bad.

Except there's a wrinkle.

The Bible says that all things work together for good for the called, who love Him. It goes on to say that for the one's whom God knew in advance, He placed limits in advance, for the final result of making us just like Jesus.

The Bible says "God is love", and it says that what He does is for our good.

So . . . let me get this right. God knew what my childhood was stacked up to be, and even before day 1 began, He allowed it all. Specifically.

God's Perfect Plan. I'm tempted to say this with sarcasm, except, I believe it to be true.

Because I've changed my mind, I'm now starting with Scripture. My experiences are to be informed by God's Word, not the other way around.

And beginning with Scripture, I can easily conclude that the person I could have been could have been self-absorbed, successful, whatever, anything except "saved". Unless God called the shots in such a way as to lead me down this path instead.

For my good. And as I look back through my life from right now, this really makes sense to me. So many things I can see have worked together, over the course of my life, bringing me to a Now that I love.

And if it really is true, that God is love, that He controls what happens with us, and that what He allows is only for our good, then I can be assured that even the most difficult experiences, no matter how they were intended for evil - and I know for certain that much of what was done to me was for the purpose of destroying me as a person - no matter how evilly intentioned, was for my good.

So, if this is the price to enter God's family, be in His kingdom, where all this will be forgotten anyway . . . I often return to the example of the father and son out backpacking, two weeks into the mountains, and the son falls and breaks his arm. The father splints it, and gets him off back to civilization, a week later. The bones have begun to knit, but crooked. So there is a choice that must be made. Either allow the bone to continue to heal, and leave the boy crippled. Or, re-break the bone, re-set it right, and let him heal fully.

Son, come here. I love you, so I'm going to break your arm. Is that love?

I see what you're saying, I think there's some truth to it. I was also abused as a kid which lead to low self esteem. I've decided that if I had been popular and successful, I would have probably loved my life to the point of not wanting to lay it down for Jesus. But since my life wasn't that great to begin with, I didn't mind letting Him take the wheel. It seemed like the smart thing to do lol.

But then again does that mean that if a Christian couple does a great job raising their children and were never mean to them, that they would be self absorbed and never get saved? Surely God's recipe for raising children does not include any kind of abuse.

The sad thing is that the effects of our sins just keep rippling on through to the next generation. Parents who were significantly abused as children have had to harden their hearts and in turn can be cold and insensitive to their own children.

I think it's God's will that no child would be harmed, and he's perfectly able to save those whom he foreknew and predestined, regardless of their childhood, good or bad. No one needs to be abused in order to be saved.

Matthew 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets

I can see how God can use these things just as He says He does. I'm not saying this is for everyone. I don't claim to understand the wisdom of God, but if I accept what the Bible says as true, it all fits for me.

Oh do I ever hope that people are saved without that kind of pain to deal with! But if that's what's needed? Worth it.

I suspect that God allowed the abuse in my life knowing it would be a part of what would chase me into His arms.

mark s wrote:Oh do I ever hope that people are saved without that kind of pain to deal with! But if that's what's needed? Worth it.

I suspect that God allowed the abuse in my life knowing it would be a part of what would chase me into His arms.

Then we should not grieve over the 1,000 children in Pennsylvania who were sexually abused by 300 priests because God will use their abuse to grow their faith in Him? And so the end justifies the means?

Yearly, referrals to state child protective services involve 6.6 million children, and around 3.2 million of those children are subject to an investigated report.

There's that Proverb, train your child up in the way he should go, and when he is old, he shall not depart from it". I believe this embodies God's basic desire for child rearing.

The way of love, the way of peace, the way of trust in God, the way of generosity, the way of guarding the weak, these ways, the good ways.

I don't believe God is the Author of the sinful acts perpetuated against me. Only that He did not prevent the wicked acts of wicked people. Or the depraved acts of depraved people. Or the sick acts of sick people. He didn't stop it. Instead, He used it.

Abiding in His Word wrote:Surely a wise God can come up with a better way....

I hope I'm misunderstanding you, Mark.

I'm not sure, but if the Bible is true, then even these evils work for our good.

The greatest evil of all that was committed by men was the murder of their creator, which was necessary for our salvation. Could God have come up with a better way than that? Torture and murder His Own Son?

Hebrews tells us that it was necessary for Jesus to suffer, to make Him complete as our Priest.

Why?

Why not, instead of making His Own Son suffer and die a most brutal death, why not just make us born without sin? Or save us all without any suffering in our lives?

Is that better? I don't know.

But God seems to think that it was better for Jesus to suffer than to not suffer, and a big part of the reason given in Scripture is so that He understands the human condition from having lived it. God could simply remove suffering from our lives, and then it wouldn't matter whether Jesus suffered or not, as far as us relating to each other. If my life is nothing but light and joy, then why should Jesus need anything different? But He was a man of sorrows.

It seems to be that God deems it better to allow suffering than to eliminate it, at least for now. God tells us through Solomon that tears are better than laughter, as sadness has a refining effect on the heart. While He also tells us to always rejoice.

To quote Urban Rescue, "Recreate":

Joy overcome the sorrowHope illuminates tomorrowBreath of Life I'm alive in You!

Oh, and I happen to find every instance of child abuse and especially child sexual abuse to be evil inflicted upon our children. It breaks my heart, and it makes me furious, to understate the matter.

mark s wrote:I don't believe God is the Author of the sinful acts perpetuated against me.

OK, I'm happy we agree on that.

Only that He did not prevent the wicked acts of wicked people. Or the depraved acts of depraved people. Or the sick acts of sick people. He didn't stop it. Instead, He used it.

You have, however, gone from A-Z without mentioning the very characteristics of Jesus that made His humanity an inspiration for us in the midst of pain and sorrow. He felt rejected. He experienced sorrow and even wept. He was despised by many. He expressed anger at some who lacked compassion and justice while He showed compassion on many He encountered. He didn't mince His words when He saw hypocrisy and legalism. He likened Himself to a mother hen who brooded over her chicks. And last but not least, He was horribly, physically mistreated.

After we discover and can relate to His human emotions, we should not feel guilt in admitting our own.

Yes, He uses the misfortunes of those He loves. The crimes against us are "a" and His using them in our journey toward maturity...."z" but when we leave out those things (b-c-d-e-f etc.) in between, we present Him as a harsh taskmaster....and we present ourselves as sinners in the hands of an angry God. But the reality is that He sympathizes with our sorrows and weaknesses so we can go to Him in confidence and freely express our emotions without guilt or shame. (Hebrews 4:15-16)

Hope I expressed my understanding without criticizing yours, but merely adding to it for the sake of edification and encouragement.

I'm so sorry for any abuse you and/or other members have experienced. I am a firm believer that the deep pain will diminish (with time) but the memories will always be there and many will experience repercussions that are the result of that trauma.

mark s wrote:Hebrews tells us that it was necessary for Jesus to suffer, to make Him complete as our Priest.

Why?

Why not, instead of making His Own Son suffer and die a most brutal death,...

This is a mystery to me. I have never been able to understand it.

... why not just make us born without sin?

I believe we are born without sin.

Or save us all without any suffering in our lives?

The suffering we experience is generally the result of evil inflicted on us by others or by poor choices made by ourselves whereby we suffer the consequences of those choices.

But God seems to think that it was better for Jesus to suffer than to not suffer, and a big part of the reason given in Scripture is so that He understands the human condition from having lived it.

God said "I am that I am." Jesus said, "If you see me, you see the Father." There is perfect unity in the Trinity. Your statement seems to imply a hierarchy in the Trinity.

God could simply remove suffering from our lives, and then it wouldn't matter whether Jesus suffered or not, as far as us relating to each other. If my life is nothing but light and joy, then why should Jesus need anything different? But He was a man of sorrows.

Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God. That is evidence of free will, free choice, and a mutual interdependence on one another.

It seems to be that God deems it better to allow suffering than to eliminate it, at least for now.

It isn't suffering He allows nor does He want it. Suffering in the result of a variety of reasons many over which we have little or no control. On the contrary, scripture tells us He came that we might have abundant life, living water, gifts and family in the Body of Christ. He wants to bind up brokenhearted; comfort us when we mourn; and give us liberty and free us from oppression.

To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. Isa 61:1-3

Oh, and I happen to find every instance of child abuse and especially child sexual abuse to be evil inflicted upon our children. It breaks my heart, and it makes me furious, to understate the matter.

mark s wrote:And if it really is true, that God is love, that He controls what happens with us, and that what He allows is only for our good, then I can be assured that even the most difficult experiences, no matter how they were intended for evil - and I know for certain that much of what was done to me was for the purpose of destroying me as a person - no matter how evilly intentioned, was for my good.

I don't believe it is God's will for anything bad to happen to anyone. Now God can turn around a bad situation for His glory and make good that which was intended for evil. But I don't believe He allows something bad to happen for that purpose. The question is how much is God in control? If God was in complete control it would be heaven on earth. There would be no evil, suffering, or death. However, He has given a great deal of authority to mankind, and mankind through Adam turned over some of that authority to Satan. The world system is now under Satan's control, he is called the god of this world. When Satan tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world, Jesus didn't contest that fact. There is a lot that could be said about this subject, but suffice to say I don't believe God is in control of every facet of our lives. He could be in complete control, but He intentionally doesn't. He has given us quite a bit of control, even to the extent of making wrong or evil decisions. Of course with freewill comes consequences.

mark s wrote:Only that He did not prevent the wicked acts of wicked people. Or the depraved acts of depraved people. Or the sick acts of sick people. He didn't stop it. Instead, He used it.

It appears God has given us quite a bit of autonomy, even allowing the possibility of doing evil. But this is the consequence of having freewill. If God stepped in before anyone ever did anything wrong or evil, would we really have freewill? I don't think so. But He will still hold us accountable for our actions.

mark s wrote:The greatest evil of all that was committed by men was the murder of their creator, which was necessary for our salvation. Could God have come up with a better way than that? Torture and murder His Own Son?

Hebrews tells us that it was necessary for Jesus to suffer, to make Him complete as our Priest.

Why?

Good question. I'm with Abiding in that I don't completely understand it all. There are obviously spiritual laws at work just like there are natural laws. Those spiritual laws require things to be done in certain way. His blood had to be shed for a purpose, which in turn allowed for the remission of sin for all mankind. When you read the old and new testament, it all revolves around the blood. There is some intangible quality to blood that we may not fully comprehend.

mark s wrote:Why not, instead of making His Own Son suffer and die a most brutal death, why not just make us born without sin?

Isn't that how he made Adam and Eve, and wasn't that his original design? But Adam opened the door to sin. And because Adam was the master template for all humanity, we inherited that sin nature. It is like a computer virus. When one file becomes corrupted, then every file it comes into contact with becomes corrupted. And DNA is very much like a computer program.

mark s wrote:It seems to be that God deems it better to allow suffering than to eliminate it, at least for now.

I wouldn't say God deems it better to allow suffering. None of this was his idea for humanity, his idea for humanity was paradise. But Adam, through his own freewill choice, messed that up and we are dealing with the consequences. God is in the process of bringing things back into perfection, but it is a process. It seems like a long process, but it's just a spec in time when compared to eternity. Ultimately, I do believe God is using this as an opportunity to teach us an object lesson.

Here's a theological question. Have you ever wondered what pitch Satan used to convince a third of the angels to follow him? I mean they already had everything, they were created in paradise never knowing sin, pain, death. He even allowed them to co-rule with Him, they had it all. So what questions might Satan have posed? Perhaps questions like: does God really know what's best? Do we really need Him? And what's so bad about sin? These questions have also been posed by mankind, which has led to rebellion, which has resulted in sin, which has created imperfection in His creation. I do believe God is dealing with our freewill (and those of the angelic hosts). These questions have to be put to rest once and for all if there is ever going to be eternal peace. But the only way to put them to rest is to put them to the test, and for us to experience the consequences. I'll use this analogy. A parent can tell a child not to touch a hot pot because it will harm them. But children with their own freewill may not always listen. Only after the child has touched the hot pot for himself does he truly understand why he was told not to, and realizes father really knows best. I do believe it is similar with us.

Abiding in His Word wrote:I believe we are born without sin.

That would be contrary to what the Bible teaches. Sin is in our nature. As evidence, you don't have to teach a child how to lie, steal, or be greedy, these things come natural. Granted, we are born in a state of innocence, but that doesn't mean we are sinless. It just means it takes a few years before that sin nature is fully awakened.

The suffering we experience is generally the result of evil inflicted on us by others or by poor choices made by ourselves whereby we suffer the consequences of those choices.

I cannot agree with this, because I think I am suffering now, and neither did anyone or did I do anything to cause it.On 9-26-18 I am set to have one of now 3 surgeries. I was born with crooked legs. As a result, my knees are prematurely "gone" and even though I sought help to get this corrected, during the process, one of my hip bones (left) failed, and now I get to have both knees and one hip repaired. Noone caused it, but it's 3 surgeries I will need because I was born with a defect.....

I know you said generally, but I am sure there are other sufferings that go on whereby neither evil or our bad choices play a role. I think of poor people, born into horrible circumstances as an immediate......

Its difficult, honestly, but sometimes we suffer just because this is an imperfect world where all sorts of "anything can happen" does happen.

GodsStudent wrote:I cannot agree with this, because I think I am suffering now, and neither did anyone or did I do anything to cause it.

GodsStudent, the statement I made regarding poor choices, etc. was made in the context of this topic, e.g. child abuse, sexual molestation, and other crimes committed against children that cause suffering as opposed to pain and suffering caused by a physical irregularity.

The suffering we experience is generally the result of evil inflicted on us by others or by poor choices made by ourselves whereby we suffer the consequences of those choices.

I cannot agree with this, because I think I am suffering now, and neither did anyone or did I do anything to cause it.

Hi GS,

I think someone did do something to cause it, and I think I can make an argument for 2 someones.

The first was Adam. Even though Eve ate first, it was Adam's willful transgression, not Eve's sin from deception which brought sin and death into the world. And whether it is as Abiding wrote, we are born without sin, or as I think, we are born corrupted by sin, death still passes to all, because all sin.

And with death comes the process of dying, and with that process comes suffering. But then, how does that account for someone like you?

"Master, who's sin caused this man to be born blind? Was it his own sin, or his parents' sin?" They are thinking along these lines, that sin is the cause of this man's suffering.

"Neither his sin, nor his parents' sin, but that God's glory would be revealed." (mercy . . . from memory, such as it is)

A man lives his whole life, his vocation to be a beggar sitting in the dirt, or hopefully at least on a paved Roman road if he can keep from getting run over, for what reason exactly?

That God could show people His glory through the man. And how does that happen?

God let this man be blind his whole life, his parent had the heartbreak of slowly realizing . . . our son cannot see! All for the one moment, coming, after years and years, Jesus heals him. And God reveals His glory! All of creation bows at His command! Given through Jesus, His Son. All I know, is that I was blind, and now I can see!

A lifetime of suffering, until that moment in which he could see, and gave testimony of Jesus, and the power of God. We receive faith as we read these words, knowing, our suffering is not for nothing, it's not just because I was bad, or someone else was bad (though God works through those also), but there is another someone.

Romans 8:20-21 (NASB)

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Ecclesiastes 7:13-14 (NASB)

Consider the work of God,For who is able to straighten what He has bent?14 In the day of prosperity be happy,But in the day of adversity consider—God has made the one as well as the otherSo that man will not discover anything that will be after him.

Ecc. 3:-15 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him. That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by.

I like the NLT on this one:

And I know that whatever God does is final. Nothing can be added to it or taken from it. God’s purpose is that people should fear him. What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.

God's purpose is that people should fear him. Paul spoke God's word at Mars Hill, that God has chosen when and where each of us would live, so that we would seek for Him, though He's not far from any of us.

God broke creation. He subjected it to futility – vanity – emptiness – meaninglessness – in hope. In the hope for the day in which mankind would be released into full freedom, the redemption of the body, and with it, the release of creation from it's vanity.

Nothing in this would will bring true meaning to our lives, only God, so any true search for real fulfillment will always lead to God.

We have happy days. Enjoy them, they are from God.

But we also have adversity. Remember, this too is from God, and not without reason.

I don't believe anything gets by God. As one who has suffered (I don't say this for sympathy, I love God for the life He's given to me) excruciating physical, mental, and emotional pain, sometimes for seemingly endless weeks at time (and I am mindful for those in whom this hasn't yet ended), I will continue to say that in hindsight I've seen so many amazing gifts come through these difficulties . . .

Well, in the words of the song I'm listening to, “even though I not there yet, I trust in You!”

“My fear is conquered by His perfect love, my life is ransomed by His royal blood”

I know these things are controlled by God.I know these things are in my life for a reason.I know God's reasons are good, because God is good.I know God loves me.

Lisa, I'll continue to pray for you! These things are hard to do sometimes. But I've found that the knowledge of God's love coming to me through even the most difficult circumstances robs them of the power to rob me of my life. My life is living in God's love, trusting Him, the One Who Loves me, and this is a good life.

And even the difficulties I have to deal with just aren't the same, and they become an opportunity to build faith in God. The act of turning one's eyes to God, to Jesus, in times of pain is the very faith in which we stand in God's grace.

Abiding in His Word wrote:Hope I expressed my understanding without criticizing yours, but merely adding to it for the sake of edification and encouragement.

I'm so sorry for any abuse you and/or other members have experienced. I am a firm believer that the deep pain will diminish (with time) but the memories will always be there and many will experience repercussions that are the result of that trauma.

HI Abiding,

Don't let this trouble you for a moment!

If there is anyone here sympathetic to abuse survivors it is you! The joy is, it's not just you!

Memories can remain, at least for now. When I call to mind certain memories I almost immediately feel nauseous. And others evoke their feelings. But when these memories are overlaid with the knowledge of God's love and power in my life, and His promise that all of these work together for good for me, they become transformed into something else.

I'll need to think about this to find the right words to express myself.

Abiding, I understand what you've said in your second post about suffering. I was not offended, but sincerely following along and relating to my own experience and as a result, I posted a third option.....not out of offense, or to seek sympathy (but I appreciate very much that you and others care !!!!).

Mark: Abiding wrote above that in her cases, offenses were taken to acts that happened more than 50 years ago (I think Im right here), so even she has not escaped the evil that exists in this world.

As to these catholic leaders who abuse their power and position, conveniently in my estimation, because if anything, it looks to me like crafty people, who have these inclinations, have figured out a way to do what they want and essentially get away with it....for that, I wish the world would hand down criminal indictments to all of them, because civil compensation of any kind (from an apology to a payoff), dont change the fact that these men are getting away with a real crime, where no other men (or women) can do such a thing without criminal prosecution. This speaks volumes about bias in a world where the powers that be have the nerve to flaunt scales of justice in our faces and esteem to such a thing.

We've spoken a lot on the impacts of their actions (and the ability of God to heal), but still, the fact that our worldly justice system seeks to be fair and just in all cases and to all persons dictate that it should do that very thing, in all cases, imo.

What a wonderful thread....even the horrid topic has evolved into some understanding, compassion, and self-awareness, and more.

I want to share a couple more things other than my hyper-vigilance reactions. My son (48 yrs. old) is currently living with me. When I'm in the kitchen doing dishes or something at the counter, my back is toward the living room. The living room is carpeted so I don't hear him as he is approaching the kitchen until he just "appears" unexpectedly or says something unexpectedly. When I seem startled, he didn't understand and jokingly asked me, "Mom, who did you think it was??" I realized he was totally confused about this reaction of mine, so I gently told him there was a name for it and mentioned hyper-vigilance is often the result of being attacked. He asked me who was attacked....so it is obvious and understandable that many times our kids (whatever their age) cannot fathom their mother having been attacked. I simply answered by saying "I was" and left it at that. Now when he is coming through the living room, he kinda grunts, coughs, or starts talking waaay back so I know he's coming. My reaction isn't easily detected, but involuntarily a "Ohhh" comes from my mouth accompanied by a slight head turn and wide eyes. Neither of us ever brought it up again.

Another time I was at the doctor's office and he was about to check my ears, but when he reached for me, I ducked. I was embarrassed but neither of us said anything. This doctor happened to be one who routinely administered medical help to victims of domestic violence or sexual assault so he recognized that involuntary reaction. He never charged me for that appointment.

I might liken these involuntary physical/emotional reactions to the one you might experience if you saw a snowball heading your way or the roof coming apart during a hurricane or a swatting action when a bee is swarming around your head. I imagine dreams and nightmares could be included especially by those children who have been assaulted over a number of years.

And GS, I totally agree that those priests or any other person who has used their position of power to molest others belong in prison.

Prison is way too good, but unless they repent and receive the forgiveness given, much worse awaits.

My wife is also a survivor of abuse. We have a couple of nice-ringing bells dangling at strategic points in our apartment so that I can ding them as I go by. This helps her to know I'm moving about, and may appear. If I forget to ding, well, her hyper-vigilance is very strong.

And the Lord hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it: then thou shewedst me their doings. But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered. But, O Lord of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

True, but I don't think it's for everyone. Paul said as much himself "I’m telling those who are single and widows that it’s good for them to stay single like me. But if they can’t control themselves, they should get married, because it’s better to marry than to burn with passion." (1Co 7:8-9)

My point being is you had family men as priests, I think there would be fewer incidents like these. It wouldn't rule out the possibility for abuse altogether. But I do think it would help. Just my opinion.

Hi Jericho,

I'd say that the whole idea of a priesthood as the Catholic church practices is wrong. The Bible expresses that overseers - not priests - are to have successfully raised Christian families. While that's no guarantee against pedophilia, I'd bet that it would sure reduce the numbers of those who had access to the vulnerable.

mark s wrote: The Bible expresses that overseers - not priests - are to have successfully raised Christian families. While that's no guarantee against pedophilia, I'd bet that it would sure reduce the numbers of those who had access to the vulnerable.

I know we'd like to think there are rules, boundaries, and laws that protect our children from predators, but that simply is not the case. Predators know the laws and know how to circumvent them. They know how to intimidate, humiliate and threaten their victims so they will not disclose the person involved.

There is a data base that should be utilized as a tool for checking any and every person who is employed or volunteers at any church regardless of the denomination. Trust me, predators are everywhere and are adept at what they do regardless of their position in any organization. In fact, churches may be one of the easiest places for predators to groom victims since members are so trusting and naive about this danger.

In addition to the policy of checking the data base, some churches have strict rules about never leaving any child in the company of only one person. Some even have a rule that a child must be accompanied to the restroom by two adults to assure their safety.

Tragically, there is no guarantee that rules, doctrines, safety measures, etc. that will keep predators from trying to access children. As parents and members of a congregation, we must watch carefully for flags such as someone who is too "touchy-feely" or overly friendly, or providing gifts and/or treats.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of such negativity, but these are serious, dangerous times and we must treat this issue with all diligence. It's not just Catholic priests. It's married men, or seminarians, or law enforcement, or coaches, or physicians, or politicians.....

We don't want to put our children to be fearful, but they do need to know there are those who they can trust to tell if they suspect something is being said or done that's inappropriate. And they need to know there's safety in numbers.

In addition to the policy of checking the data base, some churches have strict rules about never leaving any child in the company of only one person. Some even have a rule that a child must be accompanied to the restroom by two adults to assure their safety.

Yes! We have these in place in our church. They protect not only the children; they protect the adults against false accusations and those seeking lawsuits and defamation of Christians. These are win win rules. Church insurance companies have programs in place to educate the congregations and leaders about predators and how to discourage them.

As Christians, we are instructed to be as innocent as doves and as clever as serpents. We need to take this instruction seriously.

Genesis 3:22aThen the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

Want to be like God, our Father? Know Good. Know Evil.If you don't understand your enemy, you cannot defeat your enemy, the sin that resides in the flesh.It is war. A war within us; a war with our enemies soldiers, the predators.

Jericho wrote:I don't believe it is God's will for anything bad to happen to anyone.

I agree with you.

The worst having already happened, "dead in sin", now it's about making a recovery. And what is required?

Joseph said of his predicament, having bee sold into slavery as a teen, falsely imprisoned for attempted rape of the jailor's wife, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

God meant this to happen? But it was a tragedy! Was it?

The question is how much is God in control? If God was in complete control it would be heaven on earth. There would be no evil, suffering, or death. However, He has given a great deal of authority to mankind, and mankind through Adam turned over some of that authority to Satan.

Satan could not touch Job because God wouldn't let him. How much is God in control? How much control is needed to make the promise that everything - all things - work for my good?

What if His control was only 99%? How could He say, all things? Because in that little 1% sliver, something could get through that was not for my good. Couldn't it?

The world system is now under Satan's control, he is called the god of this world.

While this world "lays cradled in Satan's arms", there is the verse that states "the god of this world has blinded their eyes", though it does not actually state who that is. I expect it's referring to Satan. However, a friend of mine pointed out to me some time ago, that if this actually does mean Satan, it would be the one and only time in the New Testament that "Ho Theos", "God" is used not of the true God but of Satan. Isaiah prophesied of God blinding peoples eyes, and stopping their ears. It could mean the true God. But I expect it means Satan.

When Satan tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world, Jesus didn't contest that fact.

Neither did Jesus contest the "rich young ruler" who claimed to Jesus that he had kept the commandments from his youth. We can't put too much into God's silences. But again, I expect you are most likely right.

There is a lot that could be said about this subject, but suffice to say I don't believe God is in control of every facet of our lives. He could be in complete control, but He intentionally doesn't. He has given us quite a bit of control, even to the extent of making wrong or evil decisions. Of course with freewill comes consequences.

I agree, we make choices, and bear the consequences. I like to say that in God's absolute sovereignty, which cannot be overturned, He had given the steadfast decree - Man must choose.

And yet, He says that all things work for my good. That kind of promise, to me, requires control.

mark s wrote:Only that He did not prevent the wicked acts of wicked people. Or the depraved acts of depraved people. Or the sick acts of sick people. He didn't stop it. Instead, He used it.

It appears God has given us quite a bit of autonomy, even allowing the possibility of doing evil. But this is the consequence of having freewill. If God stepped in before anyone ever did anything wrong or evil, would we really have freewill? I don't think so. But He will still hold us accountable for our actions.

Except that I didn't choose to be born to a mentally ill mother. I didn't choose to be molested.

It seems to me that either:

God didn't know what would happen to me and was unable to prevent it. But the Bible teaches that God has all knowledge.God did know what would happen to me and was able to prevent it but did not. The Bible teaches that God has all power.

God knew what would happen to me, not of my own doing, just happening to me, was able to prevent it, and didn't.

So then, why?

Was God indifferent to my plight? The Bible says He loves me enough to die in my stead.Did God want me to suffer just for whatever? I don't think so.Or did God allow the suffering knowing it would help me somehow? Think that's it.

mark s wrote:The greatest evil of all that was committed by men was the murder of their creator, which was necessary for our salvation. Could God have come up with a better way than that? Torture and murder His Own Son?

Hebrews tells us that it was necessary for Jesus to suffer, to make Him complete as our Priest.

Why?

Good question. I'm with Abiding in that I don't completely understand it all. There are obviously spiritual laws at work just like there are natural laws. Those spiritual laws require things to be done in certain way. His blood had to be shed for a purpose, which in turn allowed for the remission of sin for all mankind. When you read the old and new testament, it all revolves around the blood. There is some intangible quality to blood that we may not fully comprehend.

In the Law God says the life is in the blood. We're crucified with Him, but not beaten with Him. Yet "by His stripes we are healed, having returned to the captain and overseer of our souls.

Jesus gave His life a ransom for ours, but just the same, he also needed to suffer along with that.

Hebrews says "He learned obedience through the things He suffered." I don't think that means He learned how to obey. His entire live is a testimony to his obedience. I think it means, He learned the human experience of obeying even though it means terrible suffering.

And so He's lived it. He knows.

When they brought the sheep and goats and bulls, they simply killed them.

mark s wrote:Why not, instead of making His Own Son suffer and die a most brutal death, why not just make us born without sin?

Isn't that how he made Adam and Eve, and wasn't that his original design? But Adam opened the door to sin. And because Adam was the master template for all humanity, we inherited that sin nature. It is like a computer virus. When one file becomes corrupted, then every file it comes into contact with becomes corrupted. And DNA is very much like a computer program.

mark s wrote:It seems to be that God deems it better to allow suffering than to eliminate it, at least for now.

I wouldn't say God deems it better to allow suffering. None of this was his idea for humanity, his idea for humanity was paradise. But Adam, through his own freewill choice, messed that up and we are dealing with the consequences. God is in the process of bringing things back into perfection, but it is a process. It seems like a long process, but it's just a spec in time when compared to eternity. Ultimately, I do believe God is using this as an opportunity to teach us an object lesson.

Hi Jericho,

That's a lot how I understand the fall of mankind. Not just one man, but humanity died when Adam died. Death was separation from God. So all are born separated from God.

When I consider that the Bible says we won't remember any of this in the New Heavens and Earth, I don't see any real lessons gained in eternity. I know we garner for ourselves treasures in heaven when we give to the poor. My wife will be richer in heaven than I will be, at least how things are looking now.

I know that we will receive praise and honor and glory from God commensurate to what we've done in this life.

But we won't remember this life.

So I'm looking at the events of this life to accomplish two things. Bring to salvation, and build eternal rewards.

Here's a theological question. Have you ever wondered what pitch Satan used to convince a third of the angels to follow him? I mean they already had everything, they were created in paradise never knowing sin, pain, death. He even allowed them to co-rule with Him, they had it all. So what questions might Satan have posed? Perhaps questions like: does God really know what's best? Do we really need Him? And what's so bad about sin? These questions have also been posed by mankind, which has led to rebellion, which has resulted in sin, which has created imperfection in His creation. I do believe God is dealing with our freewill (and those of the angelic hosts). These questions have to be put to rest once and for all if there is ever going to be eternal peace. But the only way to put them to rest is to put them to the test, and for us to experience the consequences. I'll use this analogy. A parent can tell a child not to touch a hot pot because it will harm them. But children with their own freewill may not always listen. Only after the child has touched the hot pot for himself does he truly understand why he was told not to, and realizes father really knows best. I do believe it is similar with us.

I have wondered.

In that Psalm 104, I think it is, puts the creation of the angels about the 2nd day, the bene elohim, sons of God, that is, those who exist as a direct creation of God, who shouted when the foundations of the earth were laid.

I think - my speculation - that God created the heavens and earth, and created the angels, who watched God continue His works of creation. I think that one of the cherubs, the one that covers, perhaps a fifth living creature, thought that creation was for them. Perhaps many of the angels thought that.

And then after the world and the universe and the plants and the animals were created, God gathered up some of the dirt, patted it together into a man, and breathed life. Mud People! Mud people??? You're doing all of this for MUD PEOPLE??!!

Wait a minute, what was that?? You . . . made me . . . to serve THEM?? And they . . . are going to be above us?? No! I don't think so.

Just my thinking, it was for envy.

Isaiah 14:13-14 (NIV)

You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens;I will raise my throne above the stars of God;I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;I will make myself like the Most High.”

One other thing on the necessity of sin, I don't believe that to be true.

I think that one can be given factual information, can act appropriately on that information, never needing to know what would have been otherwise.

It may even be possible that God would have given them that fruit to eat at the proper time. Again, only my speculation.

Just the same, in fallen humanity bodies, I don't think we pass the test without Jesus in us giving us His strength. I believe that we will be morally stable in the eternal state due to God indwelling us, an advantage Adam did not have.