the original hotspots of Calvinism - Geneva and Holland - are today amongst the most secularised places even within Europe.

i visit holland every few years and the tough attitudes that i associate with calvinism ('whatever happens is God's will so i shouldn't be too concerned') seem to be more common there.otherwise the culture is very similar to the british culture (polite, formal and apologising to the person who trod on your foot).it is so similar, in fact that i was trying to work out what the differences were. now i think i am starting to understand.

which leads me to ask, how can we help calvinists understand the orthodox Christian faith?i have had endless debates with certain calvinists i am close to, which don't seem to achieve much other than turn into 'i can quote more Bible verses than you can' competitions.

i think the answer may lie in a consistent and calm loving attitude, but i wonder what other posters here think (including calvinists and ex calvinists).

i think the answer may lie in a consistent and calm loving attitude, but i wonder what other posters here think (including calvinists and ex calvinists).

I agree with this. There is something about many Calvinists that doesn't get mentioned very often, but if you interact with them enough you will start to see it. It is an assumption on the part of the Calvinist that their faith is the "intellectual" version of Christianity; that other denominations and churches do not study the Bible as thoroughly as they do; that others are not as intelligent as they are; that only Calvinists have done the exegetical work to prove their doctrines; etc.

This manifests itself in two prominent ways: 1.) From a sort of exaltation of the Reformed theologians of the 16th through early 18th centuries to intellectual and spiritual paragons and the equivalent of the church fathers. The boundaries of Christianity are determined by what things were disputed during the Reformation. Discussions of what Reformed theology teaches will revolve around determining what the "Reformed Fathers" taught. You'll almost never see reference made to anyone prior to the 16th century unless it is to proof text for an argument against Catholics. 2.) From the elevation of their confessional standards to the level of the creeds of an ecumenical council. If someone should dispute something, appeal is made concretely to the confession: "The confession states thus. Thus it is true." Their supposed exegetical prowess is eschewed and not demonstrated. People who have not studied this issues themselves will profess total adherence to the confessions as they trust that they are the product of the great Reformed intellect. Though the Westminster Confessions, for instance, teaches that all confessions and creeds are fallible and subject to revision, this has no reality in Calvinism. The confessions are treated as infallible.

The point of this being that there is for many Calvinists a great wall that has to be broken down before they will even consider a different perspective. They need to be shown the truth from the lives of the Saints and from the lives of the Orthodox that they will meet during their lives. Seeing the sort of spirituality and manner of living that Orthodoxy teaches can have a profound effect, as Calvinism is a sort of dry, intellectual venture that does not put much emphasis on living a holy life, outside of certain external forms (there is no real interior cultivation). They may at first dismiss this as mysticism, but the reality of the holiness of the Saints and the love that you yourself can demonstrate to them may eventually help to break down the intellectual, scholastic wall, and show them that Christianity is something more, and that something cannot be found in Calvinism.

I'd definitely avoid debating them as well, as debate seems to be what they thrive on (especially those in my experience). Although I avoid debating anyone over faith almost on principle.

And FormerCalvinist, I have to say that the Calvinist intellectualism and argumentative mentality is often not left behind in converts to Orthodoxy. There have been some I've known that were staunchly Reformed before converting, and still speak like Calvinists but with the language of mysticism rather than logic/proof/etc. They traded out the Bible for the Fathers, but haven't changed their perspective or method. Maybe that fades with time, IDK, but they seem to have a real struggle in acquiring an "Orthodox mindset" compared to other converts. Perhaps it has to do with the strong anti-mysticism scholastic attitude that all the ones I've known seem to have.

And FormerCalvinist, I have to say that the Calvinist intellectualism and argumentative mentality is often not left behind in converts to Orthodoxy. There have been some I've known that were staunchly Reformed before converting, and still speak like Calvinists but with the language of mysticism rather than logic/proof/etc. They traded out the Bible for the Fathers, but haven't changed their perspective or method. Maybe that fades with time, IDK, but they seem to have a real struggle in acquiring an "Orthodox mindset" compared to other converts. Perhaps it has to do with the strong anti-mysticism scholastic attitude that all the ones I've known seem to have.

I agree. And I certainly haven't shed all of my past mindset. I was an atheist for longer than I was a Calvinist, so I've probably got even more problems there . Anyway, I wasn't implying that once you manage to get past the intellectual wall that everything will simply fall into place, but that getting past that initial hurdle is necessary for many Calvinists to begin the process.

I'd definitely avoid debating them as well, as debate seems to be what they thrive on (especially those in my experience). Although I avoid debating anyone over faith almost on principle.

And FormerCalvinist, I have to say that the Calvinist intellectualism and argumentative mentality is often not left behind in converts to Orthodoxy. There have been some I've known that were staunchly Reformed before converting, and still speak like Calvinists but with the language of mysticism rather than logic/proof/etc. They traded out the Bible for the Fathers, but haven't changed their perspective or method. Maybe that fades with time, IDK, but they seem to have a real struggle in acquiring an "Orthodox mindset" compared to other converts. Perhaps it has to do with the strong anti-mysticism scholastic attitude that all the ones I've known seem to have.

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

thanks for your comments.yes, i often hear 'everything is mysticism, orthodox Christianity doesn't explain things'.which is not true, as i understood far more about the Christian faith since becoming orthodox.i was a wesleyan protestant before, having had strong methodist influences in my youth.so it is just hard for me to understand the calvinist perspective.i think we just have to love as Jesus loves and keep the discussions short and sweet.

Depends on the type of calvanist one discusses with. I've talked with wonderful calvanists who are very intellectual and at the same time very generous in discussion. Also I have talked to calvanists that if you do not accept the tulip or solas your an apostate who is going to hell. Always talk to the former and never the latter.

I am a "soft" Calvinist, a Cumberland Presbyterian pastor, converting to Orthodoxy. On Saturday, April 12, 2014 I will be baptized and undergo chrismation at a ROCOR Mission church in Star Hill, LA. I am looking forward to it with all my heart and soul.C. D. Smith, D. Min.

I am a "soft" Calvinist, a Cumberland Presbyterian pastor, converting to Orthodoxy. On Saturday, April 12, 2014 I will be baptized and undergo chrismation at a ROCOR Mission church in Star Hill, LA. I am looking forward to it with all my heart and soul.C. D. Smith, D. Min.

You go, you!

Logged

Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann

The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Calvinists simply can't imagine that someone would interpret the scriptures differently than they do. I remember a debate I had with a few, and they were simply aghast at the fact that I did not agree that certain passages in scripture mean that God is the direct causal source of evil. One interesting point one might make in such a discussion is that varying interpretations of scripture are clear indications that a living, visible Church is necessary to mediate such disputes.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 05:03:44 PM by Papist »

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I am a "soft" Calvinist, a Cumberland Presbyterian pastor, converting to Orthodoxy. On Saturday, April 12, 2014 I will be baptized and undergo chrismation at a ROCOR Mission church in Star Hill, LA. I am looking forward to it with all my heart and soul.C. D. Smith, D. Min.

Many Years!

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

I have been a very strict Calvinist in the past. I recall being totally shocked that anyone would disagree with Calvinism once they had it explained to them. I thought that those who weren't Calvinists just didn't understand (or worse, hadn't had it revealed to them).

The persistent, gentle and winsome witness of an Orthodox priest helped me to see differently. I'm still wedded to a lot of Calvinist thought - it's quite the complete system. But I'm learning to think outside the Calvinist box.

Logged

Clumsily walking a narrow path and getting most of it wrong, but I'm still walking...

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

I am of the opinion that Calvinism is Christianity for people who don't want to be Christian.

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

I am of the opinion that Calvinism is Christianity for people who don't want to be Christian.

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

I am of the opinion that Calvinism is Christianity for people who don't want to be Christian.

PP

Yes, so they have to be predestinated into Christianity.

I am more speaking of the actions and opinions that Calvinists hold. There are very few that I would consider Christian.

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

I am of the opinion that Calvinism is Christianity for people who don't want to be Christian.

PP

Yes, so they have to be predestinated into Christianity.

I am more speaking of the actions and opinions that Calvinists hold. There are very few that I would consider Christian.

Many Calvinists will deny that Orthodox are truly Christians on account of their views on justification.

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

I am of the opinion that Calvinism is Christianity for people who don't want to be Christian.

PP

Yes, so they have to be predestinated into Christianity.

I am more speaking of the actions and opinions that Calvinists hold. There are very few that I would consider Christian.

Many Calvinists will deny that Orthodox are truly Christians on account of their views on justification.

Which is their right. The Church has the history and teachings of the Fathers all the way back to the Apostles, Calvinism does not. They can argue it till they're blue in the face. They cant avoid that fact. However on a personal note, if Calvinism is correct, then God is quite evil, fickle, and despotic. They can keep him.

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

I am of the opinion that Calvinism is Christianity for people who don't want to be Christian.

PP

The are definitely forms of Calivism with adherents who worship a god not identifiable with the Christian God.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 12:01:53 PM by Papist »

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

I am of the opinion that Calvinism is Christianity for people who don't want to be Christian.

PP

it's funny you should say that, I often described myself as a reluctant Calvinist, dragged kicking and screaming into a system I felt was unpleasant, but inescapable.

Logged

Clumsily walking a narrow path and getting most of it wrong, but I'm still walking...

Would it be fair to say that Calvinism is an high-testosterone form of Christianity? While there are plenty of aggressive female Calvinists, it is a kind of Christianity that has a great appeal to young men.

Calvinism constantly celebrates the 'great men of God'- the reformers, revivalist preachers, CH Spurgeon. Occasionally a few female hymn writers and the odd female missionary get a mention but very few women are celebrated by Calvinists. I think that does shape a lot of the mentality of the religion.

I am of the opinion that Calvinism is Christianity for people who don't want to be Christian.

PP

it's funny you should say that, I often described myself as a reluctant Calvinist, dragged kicking and screaming into a system I felt was unpleasant, but inescapable.

I lol'ed. If this was a joke, it was excellent. If not, it was still excellent.

PP

Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker