The ExChristian.Net blog exists for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave Christianity behind. This area contains articles sent in between January 2001 and February 2010. To view recent posts, click on the "Home" link.

Not ready to be nice

Why are you so angry? It doesn’t make sense to be angry about God, since you don’t believe there is a God. You people are like talking to robots that only repeat their programming. I feel so sad for you. You haven’t truly experienced Jesus or you would never say the things you say. I accept that you don’t believe, but why be disrespectful of someone else’s religion? I don’t get it, why would you need encouragement in your ex-Christianity?

Since http://ExChristian.Net first went live, Christians of all denominational affiliations have posted remarks accusing ex-Christians of being bitter, unwilling to listen, not open to discussion, angry at God, angry at church, angry at Christians, or just plain angry. This emotional feeling about Christianity, say these Christians, is probably a sign that ex-Christians really know that Christianity is true. These Christians claim that if ex-Christians are truly free from religion, then they would retain no animosity toward, or interest in, Christianity. Ex-Christians, supposedly, should be able to peacefully live life, tolerant of all those who preach the Gospel, without ever expressing any negativity about Christianity. Any lingering resentment, say these Christians, shows that ex-Christians, deep down, still believe in Jesus.

Unfortunately, Christians are not the only ones who misunderstand an Ex-Christian’s frustration. Atheists, who have never had the misfortune of being entangled in the web of Christianity, occasionally level similar censures.

Margaret Thaler Singer, PhD, a clinical psychologist and former professor of psychology at UC Berkeley, did ground-breaking research on the brainwashing of American soldiers captured during the Korean War. She was often sought out by lawyers as an expert witness in high-profile cases, including the People's Temple and the mass murder-suicide at Jonestown, Guyana, as well as the Branch Davidian and Heaven's Gate cults. Over the years, she interviewed more than 4,000 current and former cult members, including Charles Manson and many of his followers. The terms post-cult trauma or post-cult syndrome were first used by Singer to describe the intense emotional problems that some cult members experience at de-conversion. According to her, abandoning a cult can be traumatic for former cult members.

For those who aren’t used to thinking of Christianity as a cult, I should probably stop here and explain. The word cult is widely used in today’s conversations to describe new religious movements outside the mainstream. These “cults” often use some form of mind-control, or brainwashing to keep adherents faithful. Although many so-called cults differ little from many mainstream religions, political correctness avoids using the negative connotations associated with the word “cult” when referencing religions with a rich history and a large following. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Shintoism, etc, are not called cults, because they are all considered mainstream religions, and political correctness demands they always be addressed respectfully. Modern Christianity is unquestionably within the mainstream in the 21st century, but it cannot be denied that Christianity was once a new religion, a brand new cult, with beliefs that were considered quite strange by the rest of society. It seems that a cult becomes transformed into an accepted religion if the cult attracts enough followers and survives long enough. I would posit that all religions start out as cults and can accurately be called cults as long as they exist, regardless of their comparative popularity or widespread acceptance. While most mainstream Christian churches do not practice the aggressive mind-control tactics of the newer cults, a true Christian is still expected to attend church regularly, attend home meetings, get involved with ministry outreach, spend time in personal prayer and study, lead family devotions, tithe regularly, hang out with Christians, read Christian books, avoid worldly entertainment, be transformed by the renewing of the mind… The list could go on, and as any “true Christian™ knows, that list is long.

Here’s an excerpt from a recent comment posted on http://exchristian.net by a young teen who considers himself to be a true believer:

“i im a cristian an i always will be i accepted jesus(my savior) into my heart and age 8 and i am now 15.

We (humans) are full of sin. there is not one little bit of us thats not full of sin.
the punishment for this sin is that we must go to hell and burn but, god sent his one and only son down to earth to live a life on earth without sin and die one a cross for us so that we could live and eternal life in heaven. there is so much truth in the bible that would prove all this to be true.

Regrettably, whether this young man or his family called it religious indoctrination, catechism, or whatever, he has been brainwashed. That washing may have been accomplished gradually over the course of several years, but it was, nonetheless, accomplished.

So, if religious training can be described as a kind of brainwashing, so what? Why the anger? Why the bitterness? Why the visceral language? Why all the venting?

The answer is simple:the trauma of leaving Christianity is no different than the trauma experienced from leaving a modern, spiritually abusive, mind-control cult.

“Spiritual abuse is not necessarily deliberate, but may be the outcome of an over-emphasis on a particular doctrine (e.g. the teaching that everyone outside the group will go to hell) or the genuine belief that the will of God is being followed … In Christianity, spiritual abuse is most prevalent in … churches related to fundamentalism, very conservative evangelicalism and in some of the churches in the charismatic movement or Pentecostalism.”

When a person is in a long-term, abusive relationship, nearly everything that happens within that relationship seems normal. How often do abused wives believe they deserve the abuse? How often do abused children deny that anything is wrong? However, once that person has left the abusive relationship, behavior that once seemed routine is soon recognized as aberrant. Since religious cultic behavioral patterns are meant to envelope every part of person’s life—friends, family, money, social experiences, literature, entertainment, thoughts, etc.—when a person leaves a cultic womb, that person leaves behind a significant portion of life, and it can hurt. Then, when a vigilant cultist knocks on the door to parrot rhetoric now understood as the language of abuse, such as when a Christian starts inanely preaching about hell, sin and the need to repent, it can be like pushing a button or emotional trigger in the de-convert. Such insensitivity on the part of the Christian will likely be viewed as a personal attack and could very well be met with exasperation, resentment, or even aggressive resistance. Besides, at the very least, unsolicited preaching is annoying.

Allowing ex-Christians to express their frustrations in a virtual atmosphere of anonymity gives those who are hurting the chance to clear the air, vent, meet others with similar experiences, and in time analyze, reassess and heal from the abuse. While a Christian might be offended by disparaging comments leveled at Christianity, no one is forced to read or listen to what is shared here. Most ex-Christians, regardless of whether struggling with de-conversion issues or not, do not want to shout down believers at work, or family members at home, or strangers on the street. Airing grievances among like-minded people can be a great relief. For some, de-conversion places them not just outside the church, but outside of family, outside of friendships, or even outside the community where they live. For personal reasons, many de-converts keep their de-conversion a secret, and therefore have no one with whom to discuss the issues they’re facing. This forum provides a haven-of-sorts to those people. Sometimes, just the knowledge that you’re not alone can be a comfort, an encouragement.

Most people do not convert on a whim. They don’t wake up one day and blandly decide, “Today I’ll become a Christian.” Conversion is usually accompanied by a strong emotional experience brought on by any number of motivators. Later, that emotional experience is ratified with what the convert believes to be a logical or intelligent thought process. Still, the initial entry into faith is nearly always primarily an emotional experience. De-conversion works similarly, but in reverse. True converts do not one day suddenly wake up and insipidly deny the faith. True converts who de-convert go through weeks, months or years of agonizing soul-searching before coming to the conclusion that Christianity is false. While conversion to Christianity is begun with an emotional episode followed by logical reasons to maintain belief, the pattern of de-conversion is frequently begun with the realization that "the faith" has illogical holes. Through those holes tumbles emotional fallout. The early joy of conversion at “accepting the truth” is often mirrored by disappointment, depression, or anger at discovering the "real truth" at de-conversion. While there is a measure of relief and freedom when the bonds of religious slavery are finally broken, all the torn life connections can rend ugly, emotional scars.

Reformed alcoholics and smokers frequently become the most ardent campaigners against their former addictions. Similarly, committed Christian converts frequently become the most passionate apostates.

A piece of advice to the Christian who feels compelled to post responses on this website: Realize that most of the former Christians you are communicating with here have been saturated with every apologetic you might present. None have left the faith easily, and none have left without some degree of emotional scarring. Many of those scars haven’t healed. If you decide that it is your heavenly mission to open those wounds afresh, expect that you may receive a biting response.

“i im a cristian an i always will be i accepted jesus(my savior) into my heart and age 8 and i am now 15.

We (humans) are full of sin. there is not one little bit of us thats not full of sin.the punishment for this sin is that we must go to hell and burn but, god sent his one and only son down to earth to live a life on earth without sin and die one a cross for us so that we could live and eternal life in heaven. there is so much truth in the bible that would prove all this to be true.

When I got to typo/grammatical error number 10 before the completion of reading the second sentence of a specimen that should be entering his sophomore year of high school I had to stop. Unbelievably pathetic. Then I made myself read the rest. The last sentence is a real gem. This is just so sad.

I do like this very much. I was deconverted slowly, slowly. Much thought went into it. But yes, I "had something happen when I was a child." Why is this supposed to de-legitimize my moral autonomy? No matter what they say, I see false concepts and can realize what they are without thinking about the crap I went through at "that place" I call the church I was raised in.

So now we all need to do this with the concept of "the state" and we can all get better.

You (christians) or whatever religion, are full of shit! Im not ready to be nice either. I am 39 years old, born into fundamental christianity, my father is still a preacher and in private conversation will admit he has the same feelings towards religion that I have. To put it in simple terms for you christian drones...my dad can't answer my questions with real answers, "you believe" that means you can't prove anything..."anything"!!..you christians are no different than the alien abduction believers...or.........Im talking to idiots...Im tired, please leave us alone!!!!

A piece of advice to the Christian who feels compelled to post responses on this website: Realize that most of the people you are communicating with here have been saturated with every apologetic you might present. None have left the faith easily, and none have left without some degree of emotional scarring. Many of those scars haven’t healed. If you decide that it is your heavenly mission to open those wounds afresh, expect that you may receive a biting response. Bravo to you Steve. If we're lucky, maybe that will get us some accomplishment of getting the message across to those lame brains. And to Anony who mentioned alien abduction believers, they deserve some kind of credibility. At least we have video footage and pictures of UFOs that show there's a possibility that there's life on other planets. As far as the so called god and jesus of the buybull, they haven't given us anything to go on at all.

One thing that was never mentioned was the fact that many of the Christian barnstormers who swoop down on this site will apply insane statements like, "If you lost the faith you couldn't have possibly been a true Christian in the first place, and if you try my brand of religion, you will certianly find the Truth."

These jackasses always think they have found the perfect recipie of religion they try to sell us on, and if we would all just give it a chance, we'd be true Christians.

Great, Dave, it's a great job you've done. It expresses the gut feeling of ex's mightily well. You hit the right center of the target. Maybe now, hopefully, Xtians know the reasons of ex's frustration. HaHaHa.

Excellant Davey. I think you have the makings of a book, I certainly would buy it and distribute it to the fundies. It also explains the deep inner feelings we have that were stripped away from our willingness to accept the false teachings, but we were only following the great leaders of society as a whole, our parents, uncles, aunts, cousins, neighbors, preachers and politicians.

Again, as I have said many times on this website, before 1492 there was not a single bible or church on American soil. Columbus was not the first one to discover America. America was discovered many thousands of years before Columbus, by the American Indians.

The American Indians had their own culture and inter commerce, and structure and lived happily and prospered many thousands of years without the knowledge of a biblical god or jesus.

The whiteman brought over his biblical god and jesus, and killed most of the Indians, either with disease or weapons and then stole all their land in commission of the name of god and jesus, it may seem trivial to some people of today, but I happen to think it's an atrocity.

How can Christians hold their heads up and thank god for the food they eat, raised on stolen land and thank god for all the possessions that they own, when it all belongs to the American Indians.

And then Christians have the nerve to claim that America was build on Christian principles.

America needs to be educated in this area, instead of spreading their holier-than-thou Christian bullshit.

We need to back up 500 years and re-educate these self-righteous idiots.

Then they talk about Hitler, where are Christian principles any different?

Hitler massacred Jews.

Christians massacred Indians.

Where's honor in claiming to be a Christian?

If Hitler is bound straight to hell, then so are all Christians.

I would not want the title Christian attached to my moniker.

Something I would think twice about, if I claimed to be a Christian.

Oh I forgot, Christians do not think, nor do they want to.

I'm proud to be non-xtian, and not affilliated with any religion.

The word religion sparks thoughts of elitest hatred and self-fulfilling tyrany and concurring and invading peoples lands for the will of their make believe god, look what a freaking mess we've made in Iraq, we'll never be able to leave that stinking hell hole. Isn't jesus just so wonderful?

Since we're at it; How about the middle ages when they burnt "witches" (women who knew how to save herbs and fruits to heal people's ailments- who were just people using their brains), or all the countries in Europe who got "massacred by the early church. My own home country (Sweden) has many Inuits, still, in the 1910-30 they raded their places and collected their ceremonial stuff (sometimes many generations handed down "heathen" tools) and burnt it in a huge fire. No one forgets stuff like that, ever. I think because the Inuits always got along well with the viking decendants (all Scandinavians), the people of Sweden are very non-christian (only 4% of the Swedes call themselves christians). As we look at history, during the 17-1800's, people were forced to sunday meetings and bible studies, or they would be punished by the priests. People feared the priests cause they had been given authority by the land owners. This is the history I learned in school in Sweden. Christianity was a subject lumped into the subject "religion" in school. As I look back; how darn smart! Anyway, just a short reflection on how wonderful christianity have been to the world.

Great piece, Dave. I agree. You describe the psychological processes very accurately.

Another reason ex-christians get mad is because fundies give themselves permission to push their doctrines onto everyone else through manipulating political processes. American freedoms are constantly under attack from these people, who regard their own freedoms as the only truly valid ones.

For starters, in the Caribbean, the Caribes preyed on the Taino and other tribes.

In Mexico, the Aztecs extorted captives from their neighbors, who they then sacrificed on the tops of the pyramids. The Conquistadors found a pile of skulls number either 25,000 or 100,000 (can't remember which, but for a pre-industrial society, that's an efficient killing machine).

mq59-The Native Americans did not live an idyllic existence pre-1492.Just how the hell do you know, mq?

We're talking about America, USA, not Mexico, not the Carribean...duh!!!

None the less, the Indians never claimed to be guided under the direction of a godly authority, as Christians do, I know it hurts mq, but you need to shake off and let go of your desire for an imaginary god, you need to let go of your childhood fantasy.

Ben, quit ragging on my brothers in sisters in Christ Jesus. Mq59 is correct in stating that some indians practised human sacrifice and canabalism. Therefore, when the European Christians arrived in this great land that God had ordained for us, they were right to slaughter as many of the filthy heathens as possible. They might have been different tribes, but they were all part of the same savage race.

It's not surprising that an anti-Christian would bring up the indians. People on this hell-bound site are always complaining that God in the Old Testament was cruel, too. But it's the same difference. Those caanites and all the others that our virtuous Creator saw fit to slew were all just heathens, anyways, and it's a good thing that they were slewed down to infant children, who would just have grown up to be as evil as their parents.

And, don't even get me started about the Holy Bible supporting slavery. Afican-Americans ought to get down on their knees and praise Jesus that they were brought out of sin and ignorance in Africa and taught to be Christians in America. God knows what he's doing!!!!!!!

Ben, quit ragging on my brothers in sisters in Christ Jesus. Mq59 is correct in stating that some indians practised human sacrifice and canabalism. Therefore, when the European Christians arrived in this great land that God had ordained for us, they were right to slaughter as many of the filthy heathens as possible. They might have been different tribes, but they were all part of the same savage race.

It's not surprising that an anti-Christian would bring up the indians. People on this hell-bound site are always complaining that God in the Old Testament was cruel, too. But it's the same difference. Those caanites and all the others that our virtuous Creator saw fit to slew were all just heathens, anyways, and it's a good thing that they were slewed down to infant children, who would just have grown up to be as evil as their parents.

And, don't even get me started about the Holy Bible supporting slavery. Well, you can read it either way, but so what if it did? Afican-Americans ought to get down on their knees and praise Jesus that they were brought out of sin and ignorance in Africa and taught to be Christians in America. God knows what he's doing!!!!!!!

Yes, I guess the native Anericans were probably no more "moral" than anyone else. I like compassion and "fairness", but ultimately, who has a "right" to anything? The idea of "belonging" is ultimately mistaken. A people possesses land as as long as it possesses it.

As for christianity and anger: What does anger me about it is the hypocrisy. As a relatively recent ex-christian (two years), I sometimes struggle with issues such as what if I'm wrong and the like, while my mother and sister are adamant about their being good christians when it's blatantly obvious they don't give a shit. But they will tell me they believe in some sort of sunday school christianity any time without a hint of blushing. That's the kind of stuff that annoys me too. I justdon't see the point of such hypocrisy.

Belinda, you can only be joking, haha! Or is it Bob Schlitz? What a kidder...

I had no idea!! I ought to go kill my son right away, he is a HunkPapa Sioux. Even worse- I am a Romani- on my mothers side! Last but not least, a damn viking decendant- my fathers side!!! LOL! I love to be alive and distrub you with my existence!!! LOL, LOL! You're so funny!

mq59 said "The Native Americans did not live an idyllic existence pre-1492."

There's no such thing as an idyllic existance. Life is always a combination of ups and downs, strengths and weaknesses, possitives and negatives.

The point Ben made was that the Native Americans had a thriving, successful culture here in North America for thousands of years before any bible preachers showed up. And that Christianity, by and large, has done nothing but excuse the atrocities committed by europeans on Native Americans.

Oh, and as far as the Aztecs go, I don't think their problem was that they weren't Christian, but that they were basically fundamentalists.

Not saying this was the work of a troll (though the initials may give you some indication), but really what he/she/it said is just the logical extension of the thot that our old friend mq59 blessed us with. Think about it.

MG59 said:" The Native Americans did not live an idyllic existence pre-1492."

Lorena said:Isn't it funny how the christian(s) who post here always pick on something said in the thread instead of dealing with the real issues from the main article?

BTW, I think mg59, john, and wayne are all the same person. Our "nice" christian friend just posts under different names. Or maybe it is that the brainwashing is so profound that they all "sound" the same.

At least we have video footage and pictures of UFOs that show there's a possibility that there's life on other planets.>>

we do? I quit falling for those things WAY before I had problems with a 2000 year old dead guy rising from the dead so his father won't hurt human beings. But, as far as the video/pictures. Do you have anything that can be "evaluated" by the experts? Or are you getting things off the History/Discovery/Sci/Fi Channel?

If our ancestors had not committed genocide upon other tribes and cultures, competed with them, if you will, we would have a very diverse society indeed.

God designed us in such a way that when we encountered other cultures, our natural instinct is to compete for survival, to see which one is the smartest, the strongest, and the most capable of surviving the competition.

Whoever came out on top became gods favorites. That is why we have "IN God WE Trust" printed on our money. If the American Indian had consistently kicked all the pilgrims asses, the slogan on the money would say "IN Mother Earth WE Trust"

The white Anglo Saxon dominance in America has eroded significantly over the years, and if we survive as a nation, it will be ruled by an entirely new race of people, consisting of a mixture of American Indians, South American Aztec/Spanish (Mexicans), Chinese, etc.

The future owners of this country will have the genetic makeup of virtually every race of people in the world. I.E, Derek Jeeter, Colin Powell, Mariah Carrey, Halle Berry. There are very few "Pure" African Americans in this country. Didn't Thomas Jefferson have a child with one of his slave?

That inevitability was designed into us from the beginning. That inevitability is why we are who we are.

You know those illogical holes in Christianity that the author was talking about that cause deconversions? Well, here's one inside your own little verbal attack on us. Kill the babies of the Caananites? Because they would grow up evil??? Well tell me about those virgins that the Israelites were allowed to keep and rape as their own? Where's the logic in keeping those evil virgins? Oh right... women are property.... Christianity will burn under the light of scrutiny and logic. But to the Faithful(the blind) there are no such problems as the one i just metioned. Praise Jesus and get me a virgin from the spoils of war!!!

Nicely said...parts of this article almost made me cry, almost made me scream--it's right on the mark. I wish I could have been able to say all this myself, but could never find the right words. I'm going to refer my grandmother and anyone else who starts nagging me about my personal choice regarding religion to this article. Probably won't do them much good, what with the brainwashing and all, but at least it's something.

Thanks Dave, for another great article! Unfortunately, Christians won't get a word of it. They still believe there is nothing but fire and brimstone outside their cramped little box. Maybe someday they'll have the courage to climb out of their prison and see how wonderful it is out here in the open air and sunshine, and they too will be angry they wasted so much of their lives in the stuffy confines of someone else's idea.

"Just Me, All Along," It took to the second paragraph for my blood pressure to come down-- quickly, for I started laughing out loud. Thanks for the silly parody (ouch, albeit too close to spot-on mimicry!).

Pete wrote:"Dano said, God designed us in such a way that when we encountered other cultures,You keep mentioning this god, well show us this god you're so damned sure that exists.We're waiting...."

Dan explains:I use the word God interchangeably with, creator, supreme being, prime mover, cause of everything, old man with a beard, father in heaven, big mucky muck, designer of human evolution, and for whatever anyone has in their mind when they are attempting to put a name to whatever lit the big fire cracker 5 billion years ago.

God is just a noun, and the ONLY meaning it has is in the mind of the person using that noun as a convenient word for describing "The Force," or designer of the universe that also exists uniquely or differently in everyone's mind or not at all.

We cannot profess to know anything about something, unless we are able to define what we are we are talking about.

I cant show you God because I don't know what God is, and neither does anyone else who has ever lived or is living now.

I kept thinking of all the people I could send this to help them understand the process but then I realized, from experience, that unless an individual is truly seeking out the truth, meaning that they are open to abandon any or all previously held notions (beliefs) in order to receive the hard truth, at any cost to themselves, they will not “hear” nor can they “see”.

It is identical to the experience I had at being reborn. I felt as though I had “been blind, but now I see”, or as the old book says “that a veil had been lifted”. I remember consciously having to make that decision to “open” my mind to accept what I was being told about the gospel. Until then, I was completely locked up and unable to change. So, I doubt that it would help as much as I hoped. This is how I de-converted, I was desperately seeking “the truth” beyond what mere men had revealed to me and had consciously accepted the fact that I/we could be wrong, tracing the bibles history from birth to see if any deviations from the original message could have steered the church in the wrong direction thereby influencing the modern church to believe an altered message (lie). I found what I suspected deep in my heart, which allowed my mind to be willing to open further to receive more truth.

As for the comments following the article, particularly where potential christians may have posted, and ex-christians have responded to them. I think it serves nicely as proof of the articles point. We are highly sensitive to the jargon that led us into captivity to begin with and I think that we are passionate about exterminating the influence of such atrocities much in the same way that we were excited to extinguish the influence of Hitler and other mass controlling figures who have plagued humanity.

Thanks again Dave and fellow extians for your commitment to exposing the meme.

I just found this site, and I must say, this article moved me. I had attributed the the anger I experience to the cutting off of my most important relationships - particularly in my marriage. But I see there are other elements as well.

well done Dave, you champion!!have we all read Dave's anti-testimony?Dave Webmaster,Let’s reconstruct the outcomes of your work and imagine where you'd be. All your letters to all the denominations were read and past up the line. Suddenly they all realised that Dave was right. A genius! Not to mention whilst handing out tracks many were moved by what you were doing and inquired “Dave, what must I do to be saved?”

Anyway the churches all get together and because the brilliant intellectual Dave has made them come to their senses they form the super-dooper-multi-denominational church and appoint none other than you Dave as the CEO / High priest / Grand Poobar. They also make you head of their newly founded theological department. You now do lunch with the Pope.

Everything would be different wouldn’t it Dave? No exchristian.net instead super-dooper-multi-denominational-church.com and you of course would be profiled at /grandpoobar.

It didn’t work out the way you wanted it, did it? Poor poor Dave, and after all that effort. All that study all the witnessing gone to waste. No, wait, there is a purpose. Do the next best thing head up exchristian.net. You are a mentor to thousands now. Well done Dave. And you have the ability to produce such futile arguments as “No True Christians”, aka Give me Ten Bucks and as one blogger put it “Lots of Big Malakas” (where has that blog gone Dave?) and the classic “Dear Believer” where you astound those that hang on every word that drips from your mouth with supreme logic. You certainly know everything, don’t you Dave. How could God even compete with you?

Dave, do you delete blogs you don’t like? That don’t suit you. Blogs that could offend others (but not Grand-Poobar Dave) are OK. But anything that you don’t like – axe it! Do you change blogs to make them say things they didn’t intend? Do you reorder them? It’s good to be King isn’t it Dave.

If christianity is a religion of peace and love and all that good stuff, why do so many of its adherents (like Dave's Skeptic) come off as angry, bitter, nasty people? If this represents the kingdom of god, they can have it; hell would be heaven by comparison.

I love this site. I love Dave. I deconvered 3 years ago and I am still angry. It took a very long time for me to deconvert, which is why I think I am stuck in the anger stage. I truly feel sick when I am in the presence of a Christian.

When I am driving and I see a stupid Jesus fish on a car I get mad and want to give the idiot the bird or if I pass a car in a parking lot with one, I have the urge to rip it off. Until I read this article (thank you Dave) I really did not realize the depth or true reason for such anger. The x-smoker analogy was what hit home. I smoked for 6 years and when I quit, I became on of the worst non-smokers. I can’t stand to be in a room with smoke (or a Christian! HA!).

Just this last weekend my in-laws were in town and my father-in-law was saying how sweet his other son’s new girlfriend is… his exact words were he…”just thinks the world of her cause she is a good Christian girl, always going to church.” I just want to poke his f—king eyes out. My husband saw my face turn red and quickly changed the subject.

Dave- thanks you again for helping my at least understand the anger … I don’t see it going away anytime soon.

Why do so many exchristians have a problom with Christianity? Same reason recovering alchoholics have a problom with alchohol, or recovering drug users have a problom with drugs.

I myself have never touch drugs, but my brother has. Actually, I never touch drugs BECAUSE he has. He's also the reason I quit smoking and don't really drink.(The most I've ever drank at one time was an entire beer can. It's not as much fun once you turn 18, anyway.) He's also probably the reason I don't steal.

I have a certain lack of respect for drug adicts, and I think the only good think about drugs can be summed up in two words, "Natural Selection".

There's usually a REASON people quit things. People don't just stop drinking for no reason. Sometimes, people just think about it for a moment and decide to stop drinking because, intelectually, they figure out that it's probably not good for their liver. Usually, however, they stop drinking because there's a downside to drinking, maybe it's a bad hangover, maybe they crash their car, maybe they saw someone else drink and do some thing bad or had something bad happen to them. But in any case they stop drinking because the downsides far outweigh the benefits. In some cases, they see downsides that are so horrible that they deside to try and prevent others from experiencing the same downsides.

The fact that you see people saying that drink is a good idea is NOT proof that it's actually a good idea, no matter what the beer company's pamphlet says. Beer ads do NOT contain any more truth than the warning labels on cigaret packets. You can't point to a beer ad and say "See? The ad says it's good for you." that's circular logic.

I apologise in advance if I did indeed completely miss the point, or If I make unfair assumptions aout you, but for the rest of this post I'm going to assume that your pont was "Native Americans were cruel to eachother, and their lives were improved by disease, stolen land, slavery, rape, etc, therefore Christianity is true."

No one lives idealic livces anywhere. But things only got worse for them in 1492. Chris Rock once pointed out pricisely how bad things were by pinting out, "When was the last time you saw two indians?" That's how bad things got for native americans post 1492.

Besides, Christians don't spread Christianity through critical reason, serious debates or scientific demonstrations. They hate those things, actually. No, generally, christianity is spread through slavery and invasion. So as it turns out, the number of people that believe in Christianity does indeed say allot about Christianity.

Now, the first human God created was Adam. Eve was created from Adam's rib. Men have both an x chromesome and a Y chromesome, and women have two X's, so presumably God simply removed the Y and doubled the X's. Okay.

Therefore, Aman and Eve were basically ginetic identical twins, with nO ginetic variation. And, since evolution doesn't work because DNA never mutates, this means that there is no genetic variation at all.

You have said it all. It is a wound that takes much time to heal. I think that the problem with the Christians is that they can not stand to loose one of their numbers. I get very angey when ever I hear someone trying to preach at me. I grew up being praeched lies and afraid to go to a place that does not even exsist. I get offended when I am looked down upon by the christians that I know. And I am ready to lash out at them for the ignorance. I am still coming to terms with not believeing although it has been over 5 years since I released myself from the slave bonds of the christian faith. While I respect any religion and I respect the right of people to believe how and what they want I just demand that same respect from everyone. Thank you for this site and please keep it up.

You know what, after reading what Ben said about the America's being free from religious dogma's and worshipping a make believe God and Jesus brought over here on a boat.

Just imagine what America was like, it was at it's finest moments, no churches, no steeples, no jesus billboards, no religions no preachers, no hypocrasy, no tracts, no self-rightousness, no phoney bullshit, no parking lots, no shopping malls, no automobiles.

America was a land of pure resourses, people lived off of the land, what the land provided, that's how people survived, they did not need to run to a man built church every Sunday and give thanks to their mini-pope and imaginary god.

Look at what America has become, a money grubbing snot-nosed holier than thou, bunch of self-righteous christians, that have to run to a church every week to get the preachers approval and to replenish his funds, so he can tell you how wonderful you are and that his imaginary god loves you, what's up with that shit?

Look at what is going on over seas, basically the same thing here, one religion is better than the other religion, they think, when all religions should be abolished, then what will people have to fight over? Nothing!!!

The fighting does not represent any form of Christianity at all. Some people claim to be Christians but do not truly try to live like Christians. I feel sorry for you if you have never met a true Christian.

First off, an excellent and thoughtful essay, sir... I sent it to my friend's wife who is suffering from this same post-realization shock.

Secondly, (and this isn't prosetylizing, I promise) I wanted to share something with you all that you may not be aware of.

I was never cultified, but was born into a Christian environment (mostly Presby.) After becoming more aware of the world around me as a teenager, and not finding much in the bible to satisfy the soul, much less the mind, I strayed and never went back. Along the way I kept reading bits and pieces of Eastern thought, practices and religions. Then about the age of 32 it dawned on me... I was a Buddhist and didn't even know it.

Read the following quotes and tell me this doesn't sound like an antithesis, antidote even, to the brainless Abrahamic Three:

---

The Buddha:"Believe nothing. Belief is a confession of ignorance. Therefore do not even believe what even I tell you. All I can do is to teach you to enlighten yourselves. Your first duty is to abolish your ignorance, and only you yourselves can do this."

---

And here's a couple from the current Dalai Lama:"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned."

"The ultimate authority must always rest with the individual's own reason and critical analysis."

---

Anyways, I just wanted to let you all know that there's not just Atheism or Agnosticism out there for the ex-Christian/Muslim/Jew. If you're an intellectual truth-seeker type, there's a lot here to appreciate. Now please don't throw stones.

Terrific ideas of Buddha and Mr. Lama. Let us trust in nothing except that which is certainly certain without cause for doubt. Buddha tells us to not even believe him, yet we are to let him teach us? This is clearly fallible to a logical thinking man and just seems rather rediculous. You have to believe the teacher to be enlightened by the teacher. And now the Lama is stating that we have our own authority above all others to reason and analyze things ourselves. Well, what if I so happen to reason that it is right for me to plant bombs throughout my city or rape and kill people? I hope that my reasoning would be O.K. with you because after all, the Dalai Lama says I have the ultimate authority to reason this way. To end the sarcasm, there would be anarchy and chaos if all the various and sometimes insane people of this earth did not reason by a higher standard other than their own.

Annony said: (Terrific ideas of Buddha and Mr. Lama. Let us trust in nothing except that which is certainly certain without cause for doubt. Buddha tells us to not even believe him, yet we are to let him teach us? This is clearly fallible to a logical thinking man and just seems rather rediculous. You have to believe the teacher to be enlightened by the teacher.)

---> Hello, Mr. Stupid Annony. You dont know that you can follow a teacher's teaching without believing him/her as god. Buddha just said to not worship him as a deity and taught to find yourself. Is it that difficult for you to understand?

(And now the Lama is stating that we have our own authority above all others to reason and analyze things ourselves. Well, what if I so happen to reason that it is right for me to plant bombs throughout my city or rape and kill people? I hope that my reasoning would be O.K. with you because after all, the Dalai Lama says I have the ultimate authority to reason this way.)

---> Hello, Mr. Crazy Annony. It's sad to know that your ability of reasoning is only upto killing and raping others. Please try desperately to know that reasoning is not insanity.

( To end the sarcasm, there would be anarchy and chaos if all the various and sometimes insane people of this earth did not reason by a higher standard other than their own.)

---> So this is the conclusion of the stupidly crazy Annony person. When can you realize that the world is in chaos and bloody because of the religious crazy people who live by the "higher standard than their own" like you? Go away and play in your heaven of crazy and stupid people. You are misfit here on earth.

Well emptycan, you have failed to present any valid defense for your arguments. Your thinking is illogical and does not account for the selfishly inclined nature of human beings. Who is to say that some people that we consider insane don't look at themselves as normal? How should we deal with such people as the Dalai Lama tells them they have the utmost authority to reason as they wish. And secondly, Buddha tells us to not believe him as a god. All i read from what you wrote was that we are simply to just not believe him period. Someone should modify this statement to make it fit the way you want. And to end it all, your childish name-calling and so-called claims that Christians cause the world to be bloody and chaotic are far beyond outlandish. The wars in the middle east are not over Christianity and many many Christians here in the U.S. are trying to help the victims of these wars by sending supplies and helping refugees. We also partake in mission trips to third world countries to build hospitals and housing for the poor. And I do not feel like I need to mention the countless numbers of Christian charities formed in America for the poor and needy. All this comes about because we are trying to live as Christ did and display His spirit to others through us. If this sounds chaotic and bloody to someone, it is their own fault. And I do hope you will change your mind on these subjects because you seem to be a passionate person that the church could use to further its work.

The dark ages, the witch hunts, the inquisition, and more atrocities were directly lead by Christianity. If we were to believe the old testmant stories, then there are even more examples of the insatiable bloodbath demanded by your "god".

As for the "good" that christianity is supposedly doing today (foreign aid, food kitchens etc) it's all conditional. You get a meal, but you have to sit through a sermon, or read a tract or some other form of propaganda.

Now, regarding your statements about the crazy person who believes themselves normal in killing people. There are such things as mental disease, and we have institutions for people like that (methinks "god" should undergoe some intense therapy)

Your argument is futile, because even you trust your own sense of judgement. You believe you can understand truth, or at least identify it when it is presented. You therefore trust your senses, your mind, and your (not quite) rational thinking. That's a lot of self trust you've got there.

Many people have done evil with and without religion, and many people have done good with and without religion, so any claim of a superior moral stance are moot. Humans are not intrinsically selfish and evil, nor are we inherantly good and kind

Then what are we inherently Ball? And thanks for bringing up my own mental disorder. My form of OCD causes me to doubt myself and hardly trust myself and my own thoughts. I doubt everything important to me. And all the "holy wars" that were waged throughout the Dark Ages were not Christian wars though they claimed to be. God does not stand behind the murder of innocent people. And many Christians do good for people all the time just because they have happy hearts that make them want to be selfless not just to spread the gospel. And don't bother with an apology on the OCD thing, it's alright, I know you didn't mean anything by it.

It depends on which Christian you ask. All that post here and identify themselves as Christian consider themselves to be true Christians. Interestingly, many would not consider each other to be true Christians.

The term is used primarily to label those self-proclaimed Christians whose arrogance and ignorance exceeds the average.

Never seen a lot to justify the other flavors of humanity, but then again, the orignal authors of the stories didn't KNOW of that many other races at the time. Xians do have a myth to explain why there are black people, and other dusky skin types walking the earth.

God had himself a little flood, and restarted the species from a slightly larger gene pool this time with Noah and his family. One day Noah got drunk and was lolling about nekked in his stupor. One of his sons, Ham, did not look away, and the others did. When this was discovered by Noah, either he or his god cursed Ham's sons (and his entire lineage) to have dark skin and be servants. The congenital evil of the "sons of Ham" has been used throughout history for the subjugation of this bunch or that bunch.

Huh. Millions of people cursed to a life of servitude from one guy getting a glimpse of his father's pecker. Great religion guys, lol. Just more proof that the christian god is white... :)

Even most xians don't know this shite, all the fun stuff was left out of their book.

You can balance this story against the xian vampire myth, yes, they have one. Vampires are the "unwashed children of Eve."

Apparently one day God was going to be stopping by Eden for an inspection tour and Eve was in a rush trying to get things neatened up and didn't have time to wash all the kids. So she told the ones that she'd not washed to hide from God's sight as not to shame her.

When God asked if these were all of the children, Eve responded that they were. Of course that old rascal wasn't fooled, and cursed the unwashed children to remain forever in darkness and to prey on the fringes of humanity. For some reason instead of fangs their little fingers became thorns to open necks in many versions of the story.

Xian apocrypha... Fun stuff!

BTW Dave, great work on the site! Religion is truly the opiate of the masses, we need more methadone like this site!

"The fighting does not represent any form of Christianity at all. Some people claim to be Christians but do not truly try to live like Christians. I feel sorry for you if you have never met a true Christian." I hear christians saying stuff like this allll the time. So where are all the true christian. Couse everyone I talk to seems to think they are the only true ones. Yet to me, from what I learned. There not. So we have all these christians, who believe there real christians, but are not according to other christians, but the bottom line is they are all saying that I'm going to hell for not believing. Its against the law to have me killed for something like that. After all, I'm not a "savage" but worse! an atheist!

I have spent a lot of today reading posts from many people Ex-Xtians and Xtians.I am not going to try and persuade either side that they are wrong. for me belief in God is through faith. I cannot prove Him I cannot disprove Him.I see a lot of hurt people, a lot of sad people who are Christians and a lot who are not Christians.I get frustrated that bad things happen I get happy when good things happen.What to me is bad may not be to someone else, what is good to me maybe bad to someone else.I suppose I was an agnostic who became a Christian, then turned away from the Church, then turned back, then away, then back, then away for many many years.A few (very few) years ago I turned back.All I can say now is that for me Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and He loves me.Will I say that in a year, 10 years, 20 years? I don't know I am too fickle, too full of questions without answers. Am I weak and foolish - yes. Do I believe I am forgiven - yes. Do I think I am better than than people around me? - no.All I can say now is that for me Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and He loves me.May GOD bless each and everyone of you.If I do not get back to this string it is because I cannot find my way back to this topic.

Thanks for the honesty in your post. Hold on to that, because it is an integral part of your humanity. My only suggestion is that you spend as much time as possible learning, and exercise your critical thinking skills. It is possible to clear up one's confusion simply by staying informed and not giving in to fear.

Will I say that in a year, 10 years, 20 years? I don't know I am too fickle, too full of questions without answers.

Aco, questioning is the first step to recovering your objective "true" self. However, if you accept answers based soley on that which makes you comfortable---especially when it's contrary to reality---you develop a "false" self---and the belief becomes a coping mechanism....a "crutch", similar to the way a narcotic may be a crutch. Moreover, people are obviously asking different questions now, than what they were 2000 yrs ago. Subsequently, people will be asking different questions 2000 yrs from now, than what we ask at the present. Hopefully you can see the blantant problem when we see that religious conviction claims to have "unchanging" answers(God's word is "unchanging")...and this is before the question is even asked. The more time goes by; the more we learn what is real about the universe, the sooner religious convictions will crumble.

Am I weak and foolish - yes.

We all are to an extent, it's called being human. We all make mistakes, and we adjust our knowledge accordingly---however, when we defend our errors in judgement perpetually, this only hurts us as individuals, and as a society.

Do I believe I am forgiven(?) - yes.

Again, we are only human, and if we keep in line with the theological definition of the Christian Biblegod--the God that you currently subscribe to----we/you turned out 100 % precisely how "He" wanted us/you to turn out--being that "God" is defined as both "Omniscient" and "Omnipotent". Freewill is irrelevant if "God" knows our choices in advance. If such a being exists, "He" has no one to blame but "Himself"...in which case, you need not be "forgiven" for anything. Of course, this is presupposing such a biblegod exists.

All I can say now is that for me Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and He loves me.

At this second, someone on the other side of the planet is saying that very thing, but about Muhammad, and Allah...and they're believing it with every bit as much conviction. What would you say to them, keeping in mind that they'd say the same to you?

I really never was a Christian...I kinda walked in doubting...but I was angry at the church..I'll admit that. Actually I was angry at every idiot that came to my door, in the hallways at school, in the grocery store, the mall, the street, and tried to save my soul. Save it from what I would ask, and then I got told how wrong I was. How wrong my life and every thing about me was wrong. And I was going to Hell. My response was always "Bring it on, baby" because ya can't go to hell when you believe it's just a Hollywood movie any how. But Yeah, that kinda made me mad and bitter. I got harrased every where I went. I never bothered them. I never came to there door or thier churches or stopped them in the street to say "Hey you dumb sheep, wake up and read a damn history book, then read a biology book, then maybe go out on a limb and study some anthropology, and then lets all talk some logic, or and if you still think I'm wrong, then your going to Hell (oh wait that's their line, I got confused) ok if you still don't believe me then I'll just run you over with my car." Ok see, I never did that, I let them be, and believe what they wanted. But there was always some jerk praying for my soul and insisting on telling me all about it. It's just so offensive when they do that. Coming to my door to tell me how wrong and unworthy I am, I didn't invite that, and it's offensive to me.

I've always approached my faith in view of my conscience, in that I never found a sound solution in positive thinking, rationality, science eastern religeons, etc to the violations of it thereof. The love of God to give me hope for the violations I've made and will make, leaves me to continue searching out Jesus' comfort every day. That being said, those of you considering dissavowing your faith, make sure it's what you want to do in light of His love and not based on something outside of this, because there's no disputing that Jesus love you. Even atheists, looking at the "story" of Christ admit, that if the "story" is true, this Jesus fellow did show extremely accurate characteristics of true love.

Wow, thanks for the great site. I enjoyed your article because I am angry too, I feel I was duped. I am so tired of all of this christianity being shoved down my throat all the time I just want to scream. I get these stupid emails with so called miraculous stories and I just want to puke. Just leave me alone.I have no desire to hurt anyone else's faith, to each their own, but if they don't quit glibly pushing me I am going to start pushing back.I have a friend who is really christian, been friends for a long long time, since before I was a christian and through my christianity and to this day. I admited to her I was an atheist and her response was, "I still love you but if you start worshipping the devil..." What an ignorant thing to say. I told her not to worry, I do not believe in the devil! After all we have been through together, and it is a lot, she easily laughs me off and mocks me.Actually I have been agnostic for several years, still unsure, then I moved away from the religious people I was surrounded by and I started to breathe again and started thinking and then a small flame started burning in my heart. This same friend made me realize what a lie it (Christianity)is when she told me how she was praying for me ( I have a chronic illness and I was in so much pain and misery, at my lowest point ever i think) and the Lord spoke to her and said, "She needs to know I am Lord." I was so angry I would not speak to her for a few weeks, but ever since then I have viewed her differently. She actually thinks I am suffering as a punishment because I am not worshipping Christ and waving my flag for GW Bush. She is looking DOWN on me. I also realize it is the result of her warped religion so I continued the friend ship and it was put in the past, but now woth her devil worshipping comment I think it is over. What is the matter with these people? What jerks!Now that I am past my fervent cult worshipping days as a born again, I feel like the biggest fool and I cringe when I look back at how damn idiotic I was...I was such a sucker and that is also why I get angry. Thanks for this great website, you are doing a good thing here!Enjoying Life!CF

I'm only posting anonymous so it will let me post. You may call me Moonflower if you choose to respond so as to clear up confusion.

Okay, so I have a question.

Have any of you that are extians ever had a positive experience with a known Christian? You know, like it was casually mentioned in a conversation or something but then you never really heard about it again? I'm just curious because yes, I am a Christian, but I agree with the person who posted "to each their own." Now before you jump down my throat, I am aware of other Christians' choices in expressing or practicing their beliefs and strongly disagree with them (ESPECIALLY in politics); however, in no way, shape or form will I argue what I agree with you as the "true Christan" bullshit. I practice my beliefs by way of love. I do perform acts of kindness but in no way, shape or form do I require anything in return, no sermon, nothing. I simply live my life and if someone asks only then do I pursue it. Now, in response to that I am curious: if all Christians stopped trying to make your life a living hell (haha), would you be less angry, and, do you think that me practicing my religion this way makes me a hypocrite?

I'm just curious, because I am constantly frustrated not only at stereotypes in general, but especially those about Christians and ex-Christians, atheists, etc. I have friends who are non-believers and I know how they suffer from these horrid stereotypes sometimes, particulary the one who is Satanist.

I appreciate the article because it helps me to understand so that I don't judge, and I'm hoping by posting that someone will understand that even if I am the only one that doesn't, not all Christians fit that stereotype of brimstone-preaching maniacs. I hope that in your beliefs (rather non-beliefs, I guess) you can respect some of us other believers that do not judge you and not judge us yourselves.

Oh, and to try to help some of the previous arguments, my family is American Indian, and actually, in some tribes, a Great Spirit did exist. Now I'm not saying they were right, I am simply posting that fact because the one about how Indians only loved mother earth with no actual entity bothered me.

My short answer to your question is yes, I have had a positive experience with quite a few Christians. But they would be decent people without Christianity. I am certain I could find their counterparts in the Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Shinto, Mormon and many other religions around the world. They are just plain “good” people. They don’t need god pushing them, or to hear someone spout a bible verse to get them to react. They are innately nice. Would they give credit to god? Some would, but most would just accept what they naturally do as a part of their life. They don’t try to put a religious spin on it; it is just them being themselves. Surprisingly, the only Christians who make my life a living hell are those I don’t know at all, or members of my own family. The vast majority I know, that I work with, see on a casual or infrequent basis or run into at the store are the kind of people I’d be glad to call my neighbor. I am not angry about those who harp on their religious convictions. I now listen to them bemused that these intelligent people can argue the stupidity and fallacy of Islam, Confucism, even about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but they studiously avoid applying that same reasoning power to their Christian beliefs. It is now so amazing to watch and provides me with plenty of comedy and song writing material.

Respect can only be earned. So respect others and you will in turn be respected. Good Luck!

I wasn't trying to suggest that nice people are nice because they are Christian (I think that's what you said; if not, please disregard), merely that some act on there personalities with that reason, which is also what you suggested (as with those that are of other faiths).

I thank you for your great answer. Logic like that is why I respect others with different beliefs, because they have a good reason. We're all people in this world, and biased hatred due to "ideas" (yay for the movie Dogma), is excessive.

--I wasn't trying to suggest that nice people are nice because they are Christian (I think that's what you said; if not, please disregard), merely that some act on there personalities with that reason, which is also what you suggested (as with those that are of other faiths).--

This sounds a little like circular logic to me, so let me rephrase. I wasn't trying to suggest that all who are nice do so because of their religion, I was merely trying to dispel the stereotype that I have suffered under as a Christian despite my total lack of resemblance to it, just as I think Dave did for extians with his post. I think that beliefs, no matter what they consist of, are very personal and that no one should be judged for them, which is why I despise stereotypes so much. The amount of animosity towards people with religion in these posts was what made me respond to them, but now that I see it is targeted at a smaller group using a broader category, I feel better.

sounds like the bunch of you are dealing with some real issues. mainly I sensed hatred towards your own country. i am sorry for what pitifull acts or punishment "in the name of the Lord" you all have been through. the holy book have been changed many times in order to give man his will. this is not God nor is it Jesus. America is blinding your eyes from the thruth. i dont have much respect for the so called churches in the western world. i have seen too many examples of priests who preaches the Word and not living by it and worse commiting horrible sins on children etc. what faults errors contridictions and so on you might find in the bible one can never question the 10 commandments. these are the thruth. love for all mankind. im not appealing for you to be reborn or such nor am I claiming that I know the whole truth. this said beware of judging others for you shall be judged yourself

The fact remains that the Bible is a stupid book, and God is a damn liar.

God reminds me of a manipulative, Spiritual Bully who has a major jealousy and insecurity problem. He needs christians to constantly stroke his ego.

He also likes to use this little threat if you aren't willing to kiss his butt, "Serve me or burn in hell".

Yet why in the hell should I pay for what two idiots did in the Garden of Eden? That wasn't my fault! Why in the hell should the rest of the world pay for that? That's stupid! Now that's the reasoning of a moron.

I remember the days of enslaving myself to God, and forcing myself to get up every Sunday Morning to go to church. I served God faithfully for years, only to be let down by God over and over again.

God's so called promises have turned out to be nothing, but lies, and the Bible is a worthless piece of shit book.

I finally decided back in 2004 to say "Screw God, and Screw Church"!

So I took both of my bibles and threw them in the trash.

I don't care what any christians have to say to me. All christians can stick it up their asses as far as I'm concerened.

If their God is real, I say prove your existence besides some stupid worthless book.

So far he's not willing to do that. He continues to hide his face, which proves he does not exist, and if he really did care about people, he would make more of an effort to show his face.

The Christian God does not exist, and Christianity is nothing but one bad joke.

On a final note, I have noticed that most christians who like to come on here and rub their Biblical Proproganda in other people's faces seem to come on here under the name, "Anononymous". Just like their God, they are also unwilling to reveal who they are.

Okay, I spent about ten minutes checking out the doesgodexist site and it appears to be the same old junk science that every mediocre apologist trots out; e.g. there must have been a "cause" of the Big Bang, inappropriate applications of thermodynamics, etc. I suppose there are also arguments about "fine tuning" and other nonsensical "probabilistic" arguments, but I didn't want to waste any more time reading through that tired old claptrap. The author also continually attacks a straw-man atheist (in that he attacks weak arguments as opposed to nonexistent arguments).

So, what what the point of directing us to that site?

By the way, if you want to read what a real scientist has to say about many of these topics, please read Victor Stenger's essay on Intelligent Design.

i went on google trying to find a christian monologue for my church TEENS INVOLVED competition. i typed in "christian monologues" and one of the links said ex-christian monologues... im like "weird" so i clicked on the link and came to this site! I THINK THIS IS A HORRIBLE SITE! you cant be an ex-christian. God says we cant lose our salvation... so you werent a christian in the first place at all or you just walked away from God. i am so sad for you! you dont know what you are missing out on! God is so amazing in my life, i can depend on GOd through good and rough times. and ive found that only He can truly satisfy.

Drive-by Anonymous said "...ive found that only He can truly satisfy."

Well, I take issue with your assertion, as it is well-known that Snickers also satisfies. In fact, according to witness in the linked YouTube video, it's also a means to reach heaven. So, I think your theology has some serious competition from a candy bar.

Dave,Thanks for your article about anger towards Christians who try to convert others, especially deconverts. I was badly hurt by a Christian group called Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, which is somewhat cult-like. At a university Catholic-center, a cult-like atmosphere reigned because of one particular individual who gained power. This individual took advantage of me in ways that were truly evil, and "friends" their rationalized it away with the excuse, "it's in the line with Jesus." This sort of hypocrisy made me leave and I have found such wondrous joy through humanism and the helping professions. The healing I experienced in psychotherapy far exceeded whatever passes for "healing" in places like charismatic churches.She-wolf: BS and BS for short? How insightful! After reading their silliness I couldn't agree more.As for the anonymous writer with the horrible writing skills, get a life. If you are happy with your spiritual life, fine; unlike you, I am not one to judge. Personally, I do not care if you do not like this site. If you do not like it, don't come back. You most likely will be wasting your time and creating enemies for yourself.

As a self-proclaimed rep for Christianity, (and you rightly pointed out other Christians may not accept me as their rep), I'm sorry for the vomit. I hate it. It smells bad, tastes bad, and is hard to clean up.

"Conversion is usually accompanied by a strong emotional experience brought on by any number of motivators. Later, that emotional experience is ratified with what the convert believes to be a logical or intelligent thought process. Still, the initial entry into faith is nearly always primarily an emotional experience."

This is problematic. Here is a prime example of the antagonist redefining terms and then using them against the Christian as though they are giving an accurate portrayal. The above definition of "conversion" is perfect for those who wish to then bash it to pieces. However, we do not experience God on a purely emotional level for "conversion" to occur. Nor are we driven from then onward by emotion.

This will be met with much scoffing and ridicule also, but the Word of God is able to "convert" because it is precisely rational and powerful.

One Anti-Christian recently asked "Why do you even need to read the Bible all the time when you already know what it says?" We DON'T know all that it says. THAT is why we read it. This person assumes to "know all it says" enough to reject it. Fine. His ignorance is bliss.

Still, we do not have to accept Ex-C's godless definitions of anything concerning "faith" which they know absolutely nothing about. THEY know about only an emotional experience they once had and therefore think that there is nothing more to it. Then they attempt to pin their wretched view on us as though it is our own---or worse, the view of the Bible, which, of course, they claim to know fully and can stand in judgement over.

DPG, I think your comment is intended as a response on a different topic. Regardless, I stand by the quote:

"Conversion is usually accompanied by a strong emotional experience brought on by any number of motivators. Later, that emotional experience is ratified with what the convert believes to be a logical or intelligent thought process. Still, the initial entry into faith is nearly always primarily an emotional experience."

Please notice the words "usually" and "nearly always."

The initial entry into Christianity is usually some sort of "spiritual epiphany," which more times than not is nothing more than an emotional experience.

"Faith is believing what you nkow ain't so" -- Mark Twain.

Faith is only required when there is no evidence. Once evidence is presented, faith is no longer required. Think about it.

DPG gives us a prime example of how some folks simply can't stand it when their faith is questioned. Rather than thinking about the issues raised, DPG attacks the writer and others who share the writer's views.

"Here is a prime example of the antagonist redefining terms...The above definition of "conversion" is perfect for those who wish to then bash it to pieces."

The American Heritage® Dictionary's applicable definition for "conversion" is "a change in which one adopts a new religion, faith, or belief." How exactly did the author redefine the term? In addition, how did he "bash it to pieces?" Certainly, there's an implied criticism in his words, but is the process of conversion so weak that it can't stand up to scrutiny?

"...we do not experience God on a purely emotional level for "conversion" to occur. Nor are we driven from then onward by emotion."

Of course not, and the author said nothing of the sort. There are a number of diverse opinions as to what leads to conversion (or de-conversion). The phrase "usually accompanied by" should have been a hint.

Nevertheless, for the Christian to assert that their faith journey is completely based on logic or evidence is to deny the experiences of billions of believers (and ex-believers). As one example, the story of Jesus' alleged sacrifice is compelling on an emotional level, is it not? And isn't accepting that story a fundamental part of conversion to the faith? It was when I became a Christian.

I'm sure that, based on Christian teachings, it makes perfect sense to you that there should be an atonement. But the logic is flawed, and can be demonstrated as such once the arguments in favor of it are examined. Thus, the Christian - blamelessly, I might add - persists in belief partly due to the emotional satisfaction it brings, not the logic or evidence that is claimed to support it.

"...the Word of God is able to "convert" because it is precisely rational and powerful."

The word of god is able to convert because people are predisposed to belief. We are pattern and causal seeking animals, and we are very good at finding "evidence" that supports our beliefs. If we look for meaning and purpose from a god, we will find evidence that supports belief in that god, regardless of whether the evidence is reliable or not. That includes a willingness to accept what's written in the Bible, since it tells us just what we want to hear; that there is a transcendent meaning and purpose to our existence.

"We DON'T know all that it says. THAT is why we read it."

Out of curiosity, under what conditions could a person claim to know what it says?

"...we do not have to accept Ex-C's godless definitions of anything concerning 'faith'..."

No, of course you don't have to accept anything you don't want to. At some point, however, you will have (or have had) doubts and ask (or have asked) many of the same questions. What you decide to do with the answers you find is your concern.

"...which they know absolutely nothing about. THEY know about only an emotional experience they once had and therefore think that there is nothing more to it."

You claim to know quite alot about what we know or don't know. Considering that ExC's contributors and visitors come from many faith backgrounds, including everyone from clergy and doctors of theology to laity and those who were never Christian to begin with, that's an extremely dubious claim. Instead of accusing us of ignorance, why don't you read more and think about what led us to reject a faith we once shared with you?

"...the view of the Bible, which, of course, they claim to know fully and can stand in judgement over."

No one here claims to know the Bible inside-and-out, but there's a very good chance that, given our diverse faith and educational backgrounds, some at least know it better than you. Be that as it may, all of us "stand in judgment" over the information we're presented with, and that includes the Bible. You judge it as valid. Others do not. What matters is our methods and whether they or our conclusions can be demonstrated as sound.

So, unless you have something other than angry rhetoric, I think we all have better things to do. Have a nice day.

To cause someone to believe that they will be tortured alive in a flaming fire by a "loving" god is cruel and inhuman. I personally experenced trauma as I struggled with the idea that I was damned. Fortunately, the work of ex-christians and other rationalists demonstrated to me that the bible was not the word of god at all. I am now free to live my life and be the best person I can be. I learned that compassion, love, kindness, honesty, and truth are not qualities in sole possession of those whom are "saved" and even an athiest can be a good and loving person. I am free. More free than I have been in my life, and I am grateful for the work of those who put out this site. Keep it up.

As an ex-christian, I'm still pretty damn mad, and have not gotten over the damage that has been done to my life by christianity.

My father is to blame for a lot of this also. He worked his ass off in the church for years after he failed to make it in the business world. He claims that god didn't want him to succeed in the business world, because he would've been a corrupt and crooked business man like "J.R. Ewing" from the TV Program "Dallas". I say "BULLSHIT"!!!!

Plus he has neglected his family, and other family obligations in order to serve his stupid lame god.He actually drove himself into a "Psych Ward" in a hopstial because of it.

He talks about how we should put god before our very own family, and has showed scripture to me about how Jesus talks about leaving your families to follow him.

I'll be damned if I am going to abandon or neglect my "Real Life" Family for some stupid, imaginary, mythical, invisible God.

Why in the hell should I be so concerned with a so called Almighty God? He doesn't have any needs. It is people who have needs, not God.

People better start taking care of each other, instead of worrying about pleasing some self-absorbed, self-centered God who has no needs.

My father has done tremendous damage to his family because of his christian cult, and he still doesn't have a clue about what all he has done wrong.

All he cares about is serving and pleasing his stupid fucking god.

Anyone who ignores their family for the sake of God should have their children taken away from them and thrown in jail.

I'd like to ask that Xian critic if he were ever the victim of a con-game how he would feel after realizing he had been had. Angry maybe? Then, if he saw many people around him, loved ones and friends -- EVEN CHILDREN -- all being taken in also, wouldn't this make him even angrier?

I dropped out of the church a while back, but somehow have reconnected spiritually. Even though I see a whole lot of B.S. slung around by Christians, and even recall passages from the Bible that show how screwed up the church is, I can't honestly deny the existence of God. Even though I smoke weed and listen to non-Christian music, I still get the notion to pray, and often see the results of my heeding the notions to pray.It's not at all about accepting Christ, as Christ was the Sacrifice that God, the Father, sent, which paid the price for all people everywhere, not just those that do the altar calls.More often than Christ tooted his own horn, Christ told of God's love for us, and how The Father would meet our needs.The problem with Christianity started when they put Christ at a higher level of importance than God, the Father.

The problem with so many of the discussions on god/godlessness is the fact that both sides accept the idea that "spirituality" is the exclusive domain of religion. I know what the feeling of "spiritual" is within a church, but I also know that there is much art that is not religious but can also evoke this feeling. Many more people could walk away from the religious fairy tales if they realized that spirituality is a human feeling that probably preceded religion, and certainly is neither dependent on it or validating it.

Hi! I'm not an ex-christian, but happened to find your site from a search I was doing to try and find bible quotations where "God" commands his followers to kill all others who don't want to worship him. This article was very enlighening and informative. As a beginning Buddhist,my feeling is this: all reactions come from one of 2 places; either love or fear. I believe that these are the only 2 basic emotions or perspectives, and all else follows. I can't help but think that such extreme or abusive comments from christians towards ex-christians are fear-based. Fear that perhaps they're wrong in their beliefs, fear of thinking for themselves (as opposed to having the bibe do all their thinking for them), fear of those who believe differently. I have a friend who was raised in the fundamentalist christian tradition, and it's taken her years to get away from it; she has one friend who is still a fundamentalist, and who insists on preaching scripture and fundamentalism at my friend, despite my friend having told her time and time again that she doesn't want to hear it. These people are relentless. I think that the best you can do perhaps is to - as a buddhist nun, Pema Chodron says - not "take the bait."People who are rabidly christian (or any other faith for the most part) are simply not going to listen or respond rationally,thoughtfully, or intelligently to what non-believers have to say, so why waste your precious time and energy responding to them?? I wish you all well,and send blessings of peace, harmony, and health to everyone. If you might indulge me, here is a buddhist meditation (or "prayer", if that term does not offend you.)

May all beings be peacefulMay all beings be happyMay all beings be safeMay all beings awaken to the light of their true natureMay all beings be free

I think I'm ready to be nice. But I'm a Christian, so I don't know if the niceness matters to anyone here unless I were an ex-christian. But in case it does, I'll be nice. Anger and meanness don't accomplish anything.

Some thoughts: I don't know what you're going through, but it sounds emotionally devastating. I'm not some naive person just saying that. I wasn't raised in a perfect home like many American Christians. My parents were frauds and hypocrites who went to church, but I still came to beleive in Christ anyway. However, I'm what Evangelical circles call "being Berean". Berean means someone who hears out all the aruguments and researches the details for himself and comes to the conclusion that Christianity is right after doing the due diligence. So in other words, I've heard all the arguments about lack of evidence for Christ's existence, and the Bible being written hundreds of years after the death of Christ, and how churches committed mass-murders, and Christianity condones slavery, and all the rest. I did the research on these topics. I know the facts. I know the Christian answers that vindicate God, Christ, and every Christian- even if they don't exactly vindicate the church denominations. Loaded statment for this board, I know, and I won't go into it. If you want to have conversations about evidence for things or lack thereof, then request my email address.

Some more thoughts: a common theme on this site seems to be a shared background of many of the ex-christian posters- a shared background of fundamentalist, charismatic, or Jesus-freak-hippie style churches within Evangelical Christianity. Sound familiar? I'm not surprised that is the shared background. Frankly, those movements are known for being "crazy" and misrepresenting the Bible. And known for spiritual abuse, outright lying, fear-mongering, sociopathic thinking, intimidation, use of shunning, and all kinds of other nasty practices. There is very little, if any, true intellectual development in those churches, and also, many have very little love taught to their members. Their members are usually trained like pit bulls- to be vicious, unforgiving, merciless hunters of other people's weak spots and twisters of people's emotions. The pastors of those churches are expert emotional manipulators.

I admit all of the above about Evangelical Christianity. And even more about Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestanism- styles of the religion which have had more time to perpetrate more horrors. All I'm going to do is to appeal to you to leave room in your life and minds for Christ.

Study Christ. I can't convert you, only God can convert anyone. All I can do is to say your reactions and thoughts are valid. I have no speeches about how you're going to hell, because unlike the Christians you've known (but like many Christians you have not known- it appears) I do realize that only God can decide who goes to Heaven or Hell. No one else has the authority.

I'm not going to spout brainless Evangelical catch-phrases at you, or push a Dominionist agenda about a supposed "Christian Country" at you. So I hope you take it at face value that there are Evangelical Christians out there who are willing to be nice. Not Liberalized Christians, because you probably already think of those as being nice. But I'm here to advertise that there are Evangelicals out there who are nice. And they're not just the lazy ones who are too spineless to push their beleifs or anything. They are committed Evangelicals who simply realize the same things that I listed above. We can't convert anyone. Only God does. We can't determine Heaven or Hell, or any other type of punishment or blessing. Only God can.

So now, if you see fit, then you can commence thinking of me as an idiot or brainwashed or backwoods without a college degree or whatever it is you want to determine based on what is posted today. But I deny I'm any of those things. I'm just putting it out there that there are Evangelical Christians who realize pushy and judgemental attitudes are wrong, and there is Biblical teaching for being nice to others instead of being sociopathic like too many Christians in America allow themselves to be. Furthermore, I want to reinforce that there are more and more Evangelical Chrisitans coming to this realization nowadays. Maybe too little, too late for some of you to care about it. But maybe it will make a positive impression on at least someone reading this.

If you are attempting to "be nice", then I'd suggest you forego all the implications that we are unreasonable or unfriendly people. The suggestion that your behavior is irrelevant to us unless you agree with our position, or that we will simply conclude that you are a "brainwashed idiot" for no other reason than that you hold a different religious opinion are both rather demeaning. Don't you think so?

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, and for whatever reason you want. You are also entitled to express your point of view. If you wish to convince anybody else of your religion, however, you will need to produce credible evidence for it. As a rule, we regulars here have studied Christianity quite extensively, and many have followed it and lived it for considerable parts of their lives. Please don't make the simplistic assumption that any of us have rejected Christianity out of naïveté. We know what your religion is about. We can see past the absurdity of various cults, but there is still a substrate of absurdity beneath it. If you take the time to read some of what is written at this site you may begin to appreciate that we have reasoned our way out of Christianity. Telling us to "Study Christ" is rather naive on your part. What makes you think we haven't done so? Is it because we don't agree with you?

Christians who defend what their religion has done are in the same class as Hitler and his supporters, who happened to include the CATHOLIC CHURCH which has yet to censure Hitler for the holocaust.

As for the buddhist reply, you have no clue whether the idea from which you make your conclusions has any basis in reality and in fact it doesn't. You ae just as deluded as your average fundie nutjob, buddha would be ashamed.

Assuming you're correct about the reality of Christ and God, and all of us ex-xtians are somehow wrong, by what mechanism would you suggest we get in touch with this christ/god of yours?I tried the following so far with unacceptable results:

1. Sending a prayer email to JesusIsHiding@Heaven.godMail Rejected...Not a known user.

3. Borrowed one of those huge spotlights they use to attract shoppers at malls and aimed it at heaven, while flashing in Morse-Code; "SOS Where Are You Hiding God"

4. Read and studied the one and ONLY xtian holy book, which also brought zero results, but also proved to be both vastly outdated and contradictory, as well as showing god/jesus has a severe case of Multiple-Personality-Syndrome.

5. Sacrificed on a home built, god approved, 50 foot high Alter; 5 Lambs, 2 Goats, 3 Geese 1 Partridge in a Pear Tree, and just for grins I brought along One Rubber Duckie.

No results, well, other than I was the tallest object around and god's lightning bolt made a burnt offering of the Rubber Duckie. No sure why he enjoys the smell of burning rubber....YUCK.

So, I seem to be at a lost here on how to contact this god of yours.Maybe you can teach us all how it's done properly?

I am not Catholic. And somewhat sceptic, but not militant. I think a writer here miss a small point: Catholic church did condemned the Holocaust under pope John Paul II and, during the sixties, Catholic church admitted to have been wrong, publicy during the ecumenical council in bringing the church to the modern age, of "having said Jews crucified Jesus". It is up to you in how to interpret these decisions. Thanks.

And to the guy who said, "Christianity started wrong by starting", well, I must laugh a little on that one: if Christianity has never existed, we idiots would not be here writing these ridiculous and silly opinions. May I suggest you read history better?

"if Christianity has never existed, we idiots would not be here writing these ridiculous and silly opinions. May I suggest you read history better?"

I never said Xtianity never existed, dumbass. You're the idiot who is coming here trying to preach belief in your mythical undead Jew 'savior', so yours are the ridiculous and silly opinions. The burden of proof is on you Xtian big-mouths to show me any evidence of an historical Jesus outside of your bible. How about any evidence that the aforementioned invisible Jesus now lives, talks, works or does any other god-damned thing that we usually expect alive, actual people to do?

Should I read history better? Fuck your revisionist history. I've read of a nominal Jewish splinter group taken over by syncretistic Roman and Greek politicians and followers of nature and fertility relgions. I've read how those people ran their own fucking church into the ground with greed and sexual, moral and financial corruption. Along came Luder (that's 'Luther' in case you're a little slow; he didn't spell it in English), whose imaginary arguments with and flatulence toward the 'devil' brought SO much needed depth and gravity to an otherwise stale and lifeless theology. Luder, Jean Cauvin ('John Calvin') and their cronies took the corrupt manuscripts that were in the grasp of the powerful Roman church and built their own powerful and dogmatic shit systems from those same fucking made-up folktales. Before long, there were THOUSANDS of competing 'denominations', all yelling that the others were teaching heresy and were damned to hell. Now there's multiplied thousands of them, and the child-raping, money-stealing, narrow-mindedness, fear-mongering, homophobia, dogmatism, avariciousness and just plain fucked-up shit just keeps on happening. Some 'power' your 'ghost' has got there. When the fuck are you anonymous, spineless little shitheads going to realize that your bullshit Christian house of cards came crashing down for us all a LOOOONG fucking time ago? The time for you assholes to prove the power of your god to love, heal, forgive and unite is GONE. It would have done us all some good back when all the shit happened in our lives to destroy our faith. You should have run some damage control; fact is, you let us get to the real history of your fucking death cult and we cut and ran as fast as we could. Maybe if the 'power' of your 'god' was real back then, you wouldn't be trying to sell us that pipe-dream now. Too late. History and your own fuck-ups on your god's behalf have already sealed the deal. Damn right Jesus died... the motherfucker died when the Xtian world's testimony and conduct couldn't keep the imaginary story straight. Nice job, assholes.

I have recently and slowly left the faith. I must admit it wasnt an easy process. It is difficult to undo alot of the bs that was caused by the bullying, etc. I was curious if any of you guys have read or know about the infamous "Jack Chick" tracts....here is one that is fav. among the fundies...http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp

I know all about Jack Chick Tracts. I was a Christian kid in the '70s when those things came out, and I spent my paper route money on hundreds of them to distribute. They were only five or ten cents each back then. "This Was Your Life" was the very first one, and "Big Daddy" came soon after.

Yeah, for sure. Bully tactics...have you ever dealt with those Christian groups or whatever, that go around asking people stuff in public places and record them. Funny thing, after they are done, they laugh at the peoples responses and exploit them. Total BS.

i accepted jesus christ in my life at a very young age until i was 19 years old. i went to church, sharing some extremely painful experiences, when a counselor of mine told me, "its not the end of the world." i am now 22 and i went back to church out of curiousity, if church is just a trick on gullible people. a "pastor" was trying to sell a books about many "miracles" that happened within his church, and he gave one away for free. he placed it on the ground and told the crowd, "if you want it, come and get it. so then its not my fault," and then proceeded to laugh (a very evil laugh i must say). he noticed me in the crowd and knew that everything he was saying was bullshit, and indirectly talked to me and told me, "its what we do to survive." extremely painful living many years as a "hardcore christian," spending hours a day praying and trying to get every one of my friends to pray. because of christianity, i believe, i am suffering from many things such as extreme low self esteem and no sense of self worth, believing that i belong to a god who does not exist.. exists only during church services with actors cheating people of their money. this is to people considering christianity: i read hundreds of christian books, went to hundreds of "retreats" and "revivals" .. god does not exist, those people in the church are not real inside the church and are laughing inside (why is it that they always tell you to bring new comers but the leaders and pastors never bring a single one?) .. say NO.. do not give in and do not be fooled, because christianity IS a trick on gullible people. FUCK fake christians fooling people for fun or money or anything else, and FUCK christianity. i like this website. keep up the good work

I posted before that I'm ready to be nice enough. But I also feel the following: Atheists, anti-Christians, and bitter ex-churchgoers (I REFUSE to refer to them as ex-Christians) are all groups of people who are a waste of time to try to convert.

Christians: Shake the dust off your feeet and stop throwing pearls of wisdom in front of swine. Make sense? Makes sense to me because of their attitudes. Just read some of the comedic, spiteful, under-informed and under-researched drivel that these ex-churchgoers are writing here.

What next, are they going to show their obvious ignorance of the subject matter by claiming that God loves to kill babies by quoting 1 Samuel 15 and the similar battle in Joshua? Are they going to claim that God endorses rape by using the story of the Levite and the concubine?? Or are these ex-churchgoers and atheists going to nauseatingly insist that Jesus was married to Mary Magdelene?

Hahaha, their lack of knowledge of the Bible is laughable, as is their lack of knowledge of the Zohar, and of the apocryphal books that explain Old Testament history. The Zohar is a collection of recollections of Jewish and Hebrew traditon and history that explains so much of the Old Testament, taken from the teachings of Simeon bar Yohai, a contemporary of the Apostles. Atheists and these bitter, under-informed ex-churchgoers just don't know theire stuff. They are ignorant in the subject matter.

Why are Christians wasting time with people who are so obviously under-educated in our religion?

From wikipedia:"The suspicion that the Zohar was found by one person, Moses de Leon, and that it refers to historical events of the post-Talmudical period, caused the authorship to be questioned from the outset.[1] A story tells that after the death of Moses de Leon, a rich man of Avila named Joseph offered Moses' widow (who had been left without any means of supporting herself) a large sum of money for the original from which her husband had made the copy.[1] She confessed that her husband himself was the author of the work. She had asked him several times, she said, why he had chosen to credit his own teachings to another, and he had always answered that doctrines put into the mouth of the miracle-working Shimon bar Yochai would be a rich source of profit.[1] The story indicates that shortly after its appearance the work was believed by some to have been written by Moses de Leon."

Also from wikipedia:"Elijah Delmedigo, in his Bechinat ha-Dat endeavored to show that it could not be attributed to Shimon bar Yochai.[1] The objections were that:

If the Zohar was the work of Shimon bar Yochai, it would have been mentioned by the Talmud, as has been the case with other works of the Talmudic period;[1] The Zohar contains names of rabbis who lived at a later period than that of Simeon;[1] Were Shimon ben Yochai the father of the Kabbalah, knowing by divine revelation the hidden meaning of the precepts, his decisions on Jewish law would have been adopted by the Talmud; but this has not been done;[1] Were the Kabbalah a revealed doctrine, there would have been no divergence of opinion among the Kabbalists concerning the mystic interpretation of the precepts."

wait, wait Ribu. You tell your cohorts not to "cast [their] pearls (Christianity) before swine (us)" and then say that we are the ones that are "spiteful?" You're ready to be nice to us, even though, as you said before, we won't care since you don't believe as we do, and then you rescind your offer of being nice because we don't believe as you do. Very classy.

It seems to me that you are just like your Bible--self-contradictory and full of ignorance, bigotry, and hatred.

Hi again, all the under-informed that assemble here. This is Ribu... the only Christian that bothers to write to you. Because it's so amusing.

STRONGERNOW: Regarding the Zohar- it is not WRITTEN by Shimon bar Yochai, but TAKEN FROM the teachings of that rabbi. If you could read again the post, you would see that "taken from the teachings of" is what was posted.

Thank you for allowing me to correct you, ex-churchgoer.

See... I'm being nice to the under-informed ex-churchgoers, am I not? I said "thank you".

Another point: your information on the background of the Zohar is taken from WIKIPEDIA. Wikipedia.

Wikipedia... Really now... you can do better than that, can't you? It's not surprising that the only information you gathered on the Zohar there is just a bunch of rumors, like about the widow who claimed her hubby really wrote it. LOL. What next? Are you going to quote the tabloids about Jesus's bones being found?? HaHa!

And no, Christians are not into the Kaballah now. It's just that some texts are growing in recognition among the Christian community. Like the Apocryphal books, the Zohar, The Antiquities by Flavius Josephus, and the Babylonian Talmud. I don't have great knowledge of any of these yet, but I, like other Christians, am recongnizing the importance of them. These writings go into detail about much of the Old Testament. They have become important in the Christian community for their reference value, but will never be elevated to the level of Bible scripture. In other words, these other writings explain so much that we wouldn't have a handle on otherwise about the Old Testament.

It was a pleasure to enlighten you further. But thank you in advance for resorting to taking this enlightening information as "full of ignorance, bigotry, and hatred", as Beanheel put oh-so innovatively, maturely and eloquently.

Where you all could possibly see the ignorance, bigotry, and hatred in enlightening information is somewhat of the mystery that makes this message board so gosh-darn FUN!

But I'm not going to forget that I feel sorry for you because you ex-churchgoers come from, for the most part, churches where you were spiritually-abused and manipulated and misled. I wrote in my original post that I'd be nice to you because I understand you come from that background of those types of fundamentalist, charismatic, or hippie churches where such abuse is common. So I'll be nice. Really. But please permit me to laugh every now and then if I read something here that's soooo under-informed.

Ribu opened with "Hi again, all the under-informed that assemble here."

A big warm greeting to you too, from one of the "under-informed" here! It's an honor to have someone of your uncommon knowledge and intelligence stop by. I'm sure we'll all learn from you.

Ribu: "It was a pleasure to enlighten you further. But thank you in advance for resorting to taking this enlightening information as 'full of ignorance, bigotry, and hatred',..."

You're quite welcome, in... uh... retrospect.

Ribu: "Where you all could possibly see the ignorance, bigotry, and hatred in enlightening information is somewhat of the mystery that makes this message board so gosh-darn FUN!"

I'm relieved to hear that you are having fun. We are too.

Ribu: "So I'll be nice. Really. But please permit me to laugh every now and then if I read something here that's soooo under-informed."

Ha ha ha. You have such a wit about you. I can just imagine you chuckling over our blatantly sophomoric attempts at logic. It's quite an image. But please do continue to bestow your great wisdom here, however. We "under-informed" heathens and apostates are in dire need of enlightenment. Please forgive our comical naiveté; we're trying, we really are.

Which implies that all other Christians who post here are not "True Christians™." Very funny.

"I'm being nice to the under-informed..." [...] "I don't have great knowledge of any of these yet..."

Irony! Great job! More fun.

"In other words, these other writings explain so much that we wouldn't have a handle on otherwise about the Old Testament."

Really? You don't have great knowledge of these writings, but you know all about these writings. WOW! And, all those millions of Christians without the benefit of these "writings" are without the means of comprehending the "Word of God?" Fascinating. I wonder what ever happened to the Holy Spirit's magical ability to make HIS children understand HIS word? Ah, well, it's apparently a very good thing that you came along when you did to staighten things out.

"You ex-churchgoers come from, for the most part, churches where you were spiritually-abused and manipulated and misled."

You came to the conclusion that "most" ex-Christians come from abusive churches? Hmm. I would say that some ex-Christians come from abusive churches, but most? I don't even know if I could categorically label most of the former Christians posting on this board. However, with your self-aggrandizing, superior, and condescending tone, I'm confident you have a pretty good handle on what it means to spiritually abuse others. Again, you excellently dished up some outstanding irony!

Please continue to post. It's deliciously entertaining to engage a 100% authentic spirt-filled soldier of Christ after playing with all the fakers around here.

I post only as myself. As far as I know, the WM posts only as himself.

I'll let you in on a little secret about this site. If you have some actual point to make, and you make it politely and cogently, you will get direct and cogent replies. If you doubt what I'm saying, just give it a try. However, I hasten to add that if it's an exchange of insults and sarcasm that you're after, you can have that need met as well. Follow?

Ribu: In other words, these other[extra-biblical] writings explain so much that we wouldn't have a handle on otherwise about the Old Testament.

Webmaster responds: "Really? You don't have great knowledge of these writings, but you know all about these writings. WOW!"

Webmaster,

You've been out of the loop a while; you're forgetting that "anything is possible with God". Remember? In other words, the notion that the final authority on everything..i.e..the "Holy Bible", needs "companion books", this, because the "Word of God" is perfectly, and concisely written beyond our "human understanding", would make perfect sense to you, if you'd just surrender, and believe, damn it! Yes, only in Christi-insanity can you admittedly not know jack-sh*t about a certain matter, but yet, later come to fully understanding it with a combination of "companion books", an "open heart", and a healthy dose of Divine begging..i.e.."prayer".

Well, he did catch me on a slight oversight of his position on one matter. Under-informed though? Isn't the bible enough? Nope, guess not. To describe part of the wiikipedia quote I used as "rumor" is fine.

From Merriam-webster:

"Rumor:1: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source2: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth3archaic : talk or report of a notable person or event"

I'm an Atheist and former Christian, and I do find the tone of this site a tad bitter. You're going to have a hard time opening somebody's eyes when you start out with a rant calling all their beliefs garbage and nonsense, no matter how truthful this may be. These rants only reinforce what the church tells all the 'believers'; that atheists are bitter and full of hatred. To truly win, we have to be better than the Christians, to prove that Athiest != Unhappy. We have to be kinder, more accepting, and more generous than the Christians, to show that it is not the 'holy spirit' that drives such acts, but human kindness and compassion. Doing so can only expose the hypocrisy of the church; if we act more moral than them, how can they claim to be 'morally superior?'

Jstone: "You're going to have a hard time opening somebody's eyes when you start out with a rant calling all their beliefs garbage and nonsense, no matter how truthful this may be."

"Opening somebody's eyes" isn't the primary purpose of this site. The tone here is bitter because of the bad experiences many of us have had with Christianity. This is our recovery zone, where we come to rant and commiserate.

"We have to be kinder, more accepting, and more generous than the Christians..."

Um... No, we don't. We don't "have to" be anything other than our sweet, bitchy selves.

Jstone: "I'm an Atheist and former Christian, and I do find the tone of this site a tad bitter."

What I find interesting is not in your current belief state, whether you accept the word God/god to mean something or not... but how you "perceive" this site.

It would seem that one persons' demand for honesty, can be perceived as; arrogant, pompous, big-headed, naive, unrealistic, noble, etc.

You see, honesty doesn't seem to have a "title" associated to it. However, it would appear, that when people are asked to explain themselves, for the remarks they make, they tend to "perceive" such inquiry depending on their confidence level...

If absolutely clueless and without confidence of their words, they will perceive a demand for honesty to be arrogant, etc., however, if the same person actually has some confidence and understands their position, well then, they may perceive such inquiry as "noble".

I suppose the bigger question is; when should we stop demanding honesty from others. Of course, we can all think of a million reasons to "lie" in public to prevent embarrassment, etc., but on a blog site? Where a person can literally be anonymous?

I can say, that I do in fact tend to be a little bitter, but not just about Christianity... it's much more basic than that.

I prefer blatant, raw, in your face "honesty", not only in a blog, but in life. Now, I'll suggest that Christianity and the prevailing lies I was taught, have caused me to be sensitive to "false statements", etc., but isn't that irrelevant in the bigger picture?

If we seek honesty, in all endeavors, everything else falls into place.

So, when should we "feign" honesty, so that we "save" the feelings of another person?

In other words, when should we suppress our values (self); it reinforces a false illusion, and teaches others that "lying" is okay, as long as it's with good "intentions".

We get people and organizations all over the place trying to present themselves as the "persecuted".

Once believed to be the "persecuted", anyone who would challenge them, is seen as an insensitive, arrogant, prod.

Now, of course, there's a difference between walking up to someone in public and saying, hey dude, you're ugly - and let's say, challenging a person who says they saw Jesus walking on water with a bunch of dead relatives.

Somehow, I fail to see my obligation to suppress honesty, when someone starts spewing lies relentlessly, because of this "self-proclaimed" or "role played" persecution.

So, Jstone... perhaps you find this site a tad bit bitter, because the regulars give "little" to "no" regard, for the "persecution" role.

Does that seem fair? Yes, it does to those who don't see; age, race, physical ability, emotional state, intelligence, gender, religion, etc., as a prerequisite to honesty.

No, to those who find it convenient to use their; age, race, physical ability, emotional state, intelligence, gender, religion, etc., to claim the status of "persecuted", so they can conveniently use it to evade those who demand honesty.

To those who have lived through Christianity, bad relationships at work or home, growing up, or still living through it, one may see some truth in the words of Billy Joel’s song… Honesty.

HonestyIf you search for tendernessIt isn't hard to findYou can have the love you need to liveBut if you look for truthfulnessYou might just as well be blindIt always seems to be so hard to give

CHORUS

Honesty is such a lonely wordEveryone is so untrueHonesty is hardly ever heardAnd mostly what I need from you

I can always find someoneTo say they sympathizeIf I wear my heart out on my sleeveBut I don't want some pretty faceTo tell me pretty liesAll I want is someone to believe

CHORUS

I can find a loverI can find a friendI can have securityUntil the bitter endAnyone can comfort meWith promises againI know, I know

When I'm deep inside of meDon't be too concernedI won't ask for nothin' while I'm goneBut when I want sincerityTell me where else can I turnBecause you're the one that I depend upon

CHORUS

To me, anyone worth depending on, is someone honest. To those who take offense to the honesty requirement; just don’t demand that others believe your words are dependable. Is honesty that difficult a concept to grasp?

Jstone: I'm an Atheist and former Christian, and I do find the tone of this site a tad bitter.

Uh huh, and you're welcome to your opinion.

Jstone: You're going to have a hard time opening somebody's eyes when you start out with a rant calling all their beliefs garbage and nonsense, no matter how truthful this may be.

We're not here to "deconvert" the Christian visitors. Furthermore, they[Christians] can take it, or leave it. Conversely, it is at least implicit that one cannot "take or leave" Christianity. Remember? If you are a former Christian, as you say, I'd be suprised if you've, so soon, forgotten that very important distinction.

Jstone: These rants only reinforce what the church tells all the 'believers'; that atheists are bitter and full of hatred.

Listen closely---even if Atheists could blow sunshine out their asses 24/7, "the church" would find some other "strawman" to attack...i.e "Atheists believe in nothing"...[blah, blah, blah, etc., etc.]

Jstone: To truly win, we have to be better than the Christians, to prove that Athiest != Unhappy.

No, I'm sorry, we don't have to "prove" any such thing. You see, anger is a very cleansing and perfectly natural emotion. We have just as much right to be "unhappy" as anyone else who has wasted precious years of their lives being duped by a cult. One way of resolving some of this residual "unhappiness" is finding and conversing with others who have been through the same thing. Yet, when Christians barge in here daily, it is essentially the equivilent of a beer vendor barging in on an A.A. meeting. That would make certain people "unhappy", and rightfully so.

Jstone: We have to be kinder, more accepting, and more generous than the Christians, to show that it is not the 'holy spirit' that drives such acts, but human kindness and compassion. Doing so can only expose the hypocrisy of the church; if we act more moral than them, how can they claim to be 'morally superior?'

In my view, Christians don't need one bit of help in demonstrating that they aren't being guided by any "holy spirit"; they seem to do a very good job of that, themselves. Moreover, if we set out to show people that we are "superior", we are essentially striving for some non-existent 'standard', just like they are.

boomSLANG said:...even if Atheists could blow sunshine out their asses 24/7, "the church" would find some other "strawman" to attack...---Boom',O-M-G[awd)....this is a priceless piece of wisdom, if I ever 'met one' !!

Now that I'm done LMAO, perhaps you have solved the mystery of where the earth's sunlight comes from.

Gawd has been right there the whole time, giving the earth the 'fired' results of his baked-bean lunch.This sure explains how sunshine gets 'blown' to us during the day, and of course, god Moon's the earth at night.

ATF (Who wonders if we would have two suns, if the Sun-of-god also eats beans for lunch)

Belinda Stevens, Right Thinker, said, and I paraphrase, that her god wanted all of the Native Americans slain.

Well, let one who is technically considered part of that minority, due to DNA, clear something up for you.

Who was it that helped the puritans when they got to Massachusetts? Who showed them where to find food and gave them some? Traded with them? I am not saying all Native Americans were paragons of virtue, but no ethnicity is. There's good and bad in us all. I have enough of a mutt ancestry that makes you wonder how I even got here.

Also, my lineage relates back to the Cherokees, the first and perhaps still the only Native American tribe to create its own written alphabet.

Thanks to you, I barely know anything about my ancestor's heritage. I have to scrounge around on the internet because YOUR "god" destroyed their culture, their lives. It's all memories now that I have to drudge up from this giant cyber encyclopedia.

I can tolerate quietly, while snickering to my friends, anything you fundamentalists can crank out, but this has got to be one of the most disgusting, violent, and hateful things I have ever read. I now fully appreciate why homosexuals hate you all so much. Even why my own gender hates you as much as it does.

To end this note, I'd like to mention that some of your faith must not have disliked the natives too much, because they sure didn't seem to have any issues fucking them.

Helloooooo, my new favorite website. How YOU doin'?Not ready to make nice!! What a great great post, thank you! The guilt, the loss, and wondering why I am still so angry about Christianity after all these years of gradually leaving... it's so hard when your family is still there, and they look at you with that sad, superior look. Ugh, it makes me want to scream!!! My christian brother and his (subjugated) wife went to Africa recently for "mission" work -- I felt so upset about it, because of the presumptousness of the endeavor, etc., etc. But the ideas in Dave's post made me realize that all the old christian jargon just opens old wounds. I came to this site after some futile but pugilistic exchanges with some LDS members online.

But surely enough, so much as we have walked away from the "faith" (have ALWAYS hated that word), there will always be some Xtian dolt chasing us down telling us how to feel abut things or talk about Xtianity, never dreaming that people like them might be the reason we walked away in the first place. Boy Jeebus can really pick 'em, huh?

Breaks my heart. If only they knew the hours I spent, face down in the carpet, snot almost choking me, my body wracked with sobs, BEGGING God to be real to me and have a relationship with me. Salt in the wound, people.

I do like this very much. I was deconverted slowly, slowly. Much thought went into it. But yes, I "had something happen when I was a child." Why is this supposed to de-legitimize my moral autonomy? No matter what they say, I see false concepts and can realize what they are without thinking about the crap I went through at "that place" I call the church I was raised in.

So now we all need to do this with the concept of "the state" and we can all get better.

Everybody needs to watch the movie: Zeitgeist. The first 20 mins explains the ancient orrigins of the christian religion. The movie states thats religion is the soil from which other myths come from. In essence, if you beleive religion you'll believe anything becuase religion demands a sacrifice of critical thinking.

Everybody needs to watch the movie: Zeitgeist. The first 20 mins explains the ancient orrigins of the christian religion. The movie states thats religion is the soil from which other myths come from. In essence, if you beleive religion you'll believe anything becuase religion demands a sacrifice of critical thinking.

you guys. i think you just sound emo now... poor you and how christianity is gettin you down.. brain washin you and making you angry... get back into life and find something else to whine about than how you have been psychologically damaged by religion.... you havent - and you know it... but keep up the charade of how you are fighting the good fight for freedom of thought by attacking those that think differently...

yes - its wrong of people to push their beliefs on you... as ive said and say again... people suck... religious ones and irreligious ones alike - it doesnt matter if they believe in communism - or the joys of hunting.. or any other concept.. they will argue with you that their personal bias is correct..... but that doesnt make you the injured party - have some respect and take some responsibility - you aren't the suffering ones... those that believe are the ones ridiculed by the rest of the world - since the dawn of time those placing belief in something bigger than themselves that they couldnt prove were the ones to suffer the consequences by all those around them.... they were seen as unrealistic... or crazy or what have you.. - and at some points in history even put to death for such beliefs... but sure - you guys are the wounded party.. lol

you guys. i think you just sound emo now... poor you and how christianity is gettin you down.. brain washin you and making you angry... get back into life and find something else to whine about than how you have been psychologically damaged by religion.... you havent - and you know it... but keep up the charade of how you are fighting the good fight for freedom of thought by attacking those that think differently...

yes - its wrong of people to push their beliefs on you... as ive said and say again... people suck... religious ones and irreligious ones alike - it doesnt matter if they believe in communism - or the joys of hunting.. or any other concept.. they will argue with you that their personal bias is correct..... but that doesnt make you the injured party - have some respect and take some responsibility - you aren't the suffering ones... those that believe are the ones ridiculed by the rest of the world - since the dawn of time those placing belief in something bigger than themselves that they couldnt prove were the ones to suffer the consequences by all those around them.... they were seen as unrealistic... or crazy or what have you.. - and at some points in history even put to death for such beliefs... but sure - you guys are the wounded party.. lol