I'm really struggling with this as DM. We have made it to the Undying Temple, but we are only 11th level.

The adventure states that by now we should be somewhere around 15th?

The group made good use of divinations and teleport to bypass most of the Underdark journey and went straight to the city after Szith Morcane.

They quickly found The Hidden, and devised a way to air walk directly to the top level of the Castle and fought 2 rooms to get to the Undying Temple.

I have several problems:

1) The group cannot defeat Irae2) the group cannot counter or handle the actions of the Temple and all of it's powers3) Taking negative damage each round while within the Temple is silly and will contribute directly to a TPK4) The adventure essentially makes it impossible to destroy the Temple even if you beat every encounter.

I find the conclusion to be anything but. It's trite, unnecessary and removes any sense of closure for the adventure.

5) The ethereal Temple is needlessly complicated and there is no real justification for it. It is NOT necessary for the Great Revenance spell, and really has no place in the adventure.

I can't even understand the point of it, nor can I explain it to my players

6) there are multiple EL 18+ encounters back to back and the final encounter is EL 21+

The solution all depends on how familiar you are with the rules and with making stuff up as you go along.

Option 1 is be really mean and let them die. Then their new characters can play through again but in the aftermath of their former party's actions (news monster but with the carnage of former battles strewn about).

Option 2 is let them play as normal, when they lose they are instead captured to be sacrificed. They must escape from dungeons (with help from other prisoners) and come back later.

Option 3 is amend the difficulty of the encounter. Make irae and the other baddies be lower level with less gear and remove the negative aura (the ritual to create it hasn't been completed and the pcs can interrupt that ritual if you like when they confront irae).

Option 4 is a bit more on the fly. You can bring in other factors. So another adventuring party turns up and is already in progress of attacking irae when the pcs get there. The other adventuring party lose and the pcs can retreat, or together they beat irae and must divide any treasure between the two groups. Or the pcs arrive but the negative aura hasn't been made yet and irae is not at home (baddies don't wait in their lair all day waiting to be smashed). The party clean out the temple but must go and find irae elsewhere or perhaps can lay a trap for her (lots of preparation time might even the odds between pcs and irae).

Just a few thoughts. I realise messing with stat blocks is a large task in 3e as is rewriting bits of the adventure but sometimes as a DM you just have to make things up when the players go off piste

The solution all depends on how familiar you are with the rules and with making stuff up as you go along.

Option 1 is be really mean and let them die. Then their new characters can play through again but in the aftermath of their former party's actions (news monster but with the carnage of former battles strewn about).

Option 2 is let them play as normal, when they lose they are instead captured to be sacrificed. They must escape from dungeons (with help from other prisoners) and come back later.

Option 3 is amend the difficulty of the encounter. Make irae and the other baddies be lower level with less gear and remove the negative aura (the ritual to create it hasn't been completed and the pcs can interrupt that ritual if you like when they confront irae).

Option 4 is a bit more on the fly. You can bring in other factors. So another adventuring party turns up and is already in progress of attacking irae when the pcs get there. The other adventuring party lose and the pcs can retreat, or together they beat irae and must divide any treasure between the two groups. Or the pcs arrive but the negative aura hasn't been made yet and irae is not at home (baddies don't wait in their lair all day waiting to be smashed). The party clean out the temple but must go and find irae elsewhere or perhaps can lay a trap for her (lots of preparation time might even the odds between pcs and irae).

Just a few thoughts. I realise messing with stat blocks is a large task in 3e as is rewriting bits of the adventure but sometimes as a DM you just have to make things up when the players go off piste

Option 2 could work in Out of the Underdark.

The players didn't go off piste, they have been extremely crafty and smart with this.

The adventure frankly is stupid hard in the last portion and very poorly thought out.

Good suggestions so far.My first thought is to let a spellcaster banish the party to an evil, outer plane, as Abyss, Carceri or Gehenna. That would give them some XP on the way back. Could work out as a solution if they are not able to escape prison, and sits captured.

Well this is effectively put my game on hiatus. The party is confused and doesn't know how to deal with the Undying Temple and Negative Energy Orb. They can feel that it's epic and know they are completely outclassed.

Hand waving seems to be the only solution but they have caught on that this is beyond them totally. I HATE to do that.

I do remember reading in some 4e Dragon (that has a 4e conversion of Irae's stats) that this adventure was made in such a way to discourage players' creativity (or cheating, as they put it), as they felt 3e adventures were hard to prepare and desing (for both designers and DMs), and players always did something to "cheat and win the easy way". They use the Ethereal version of the castle as an example of this: they created it to avoid players using the Ethereal Plane to bypass the traps and such. I'm going to check for the issue's number.

But, yes, I guess your players got punished for being creative.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Well the solution where you beat the party into unconsciousness, imprison them awaiting sacrifice, and steal all their gear isn't really hand waving it away.

3e has several big problems, but assuming all fights end in death is a biggie and the rules make it very difficult to take prisoners.A baddie is going to want to capture people to eat or sacrifice or enslave so while this behaviour isn't supported by the rules it's entirely within the lore of the setting.I always take lore over rules (except for that 4e stuff) so use your dm power and make things happen the way they would in realistic fantasy life

I do remember reading in some 4e Dragon (that has a 4e conversion of Irae's stats) that this adventure was made in such a way to discourage players' creativity (or cheating, as they put it), as they felt 3e adventures were hard to prepare and desing (for both designers and DMs), and players always did something to "cheat and win the easy way". They use the Ethereal version of the castle as an example of this: they created it to avoid players using the Ethereal Plane to bypass the traps and such. I'm going to check for the issue's number.

But, yes, I guess your players got punished for being creative.

Hmm I didn't know this thanks for adding that.

It makes sense, I mean they did Air Walk past the entire castle all the way to Level 6 (the highest window) in the South Tower.

That bypasses the entire Castle except for level 7 and the hallway to the Undying Temple.

Well the solution where you beat the party into unconsciousness, imprison them awaiting sacrifice, and steal all their gear isn't really hand waving it away.

3e has several big problems, but assuming all fights end in death is a biggie and the rules make it very difficult to take prisoners.A baddie is going to want to capture people to eat or sacrifice or enslave so while this behaviour isn't supported by the rules it's entirely within the lore of the setting.I always take lore over rules (except for that 4e stuff) so use your dm power and make things happen the way they would in realistic fantasy life

Yes I agree.

My only issue with this is the added complexity and time needed to play out a prison escape AND an "out of the Underdark" scenario.

I do have multiple story arcs going at the moment and adding several real life months to this jaunt because the design is crap just isn't an option at the moment.

My only option I guess is then to nerf the entire Undying Temple but hopefully in a way that doesn't tip them off but I'm sure they have already caught on.

What REALLY chaps my hide is that I can't even reward them for being clever and destroying the Undying Temple......because it can't be destroyed!

Thanks a lot authors.

It's not effected by any spell lower than 8th level.

You would have to channel or turn 100 HD worth of undead to destroy the negative energy sphere.

Nothing short of a wish spell would do anything.

So you can kill the BBEG and all her minions (including a LICH, and a ****ing medusa) and still not accomplish the overall goal.

Another NPC baddie can just come in, cast Legend Lore and pickup the Great Revenance where Irae left off.

Well the group slogged through a nerfed version of the Undying Temple. We killed Irae.

The plan is now to destroy the Negative Energy Sphere and thus the Undying Temple itself.

Two clerics will take the Rod of the Twisted Weave INTO the Negative Energy Sphere. They will sunder the Rod while channeling 12d6 points of positive energy.

The theory is that by sundering the Rod with positive energy, within the negative energy sphere will disrupt the Weave enough to remove the sphere's anchor on the Prime Material Plane, thereby removing it and destroying the Temple (since it is a magical construct connected to the Weave).

I am going to allow it. The clerics are essentially going to sacrifice themselves to accomplish this.

Well the group slogged through a nerfed version of the Undying Temple. We killed Irae.

The plan is now to destroy the Negative Energy Sphere and thus the Undying Temple itself.

Two clerics will take the Rod of the Twisted Weave INTO the Negative Energy Sphere. They will sunder the Rod while channeling 12d6 points of positive energy.

The theory is that by sundering the Rod with positive energy, within the negative energy sphere will disrupt the Weave enough to remove the sphere's anchor on the Prime Material Plane, thereby removing it and destroying the Temple (since it is a magical construct connected to the Weave).

I am going to allow it. The clerics are essentially going to sacrifice themselves to accomplish this.

Any thoughts on the ultimate fate of the two heros?

Shunted to the Negative Energy Plane? Annihilated?

Aged enormously but not dead due the negative energy backlash. Blackened hand that becomes petrified and immune to any magical repair or regrowth. If its removed, a Durpari Plangent arm can be put in its place.

Well the group slogged through a nerfed version of the Undying Temple. We killed Irae.

The plan is now to destroy the Negative Energy Sphere and thus the Undying Temple itself.

Two clerics will take the Rod of the Twisted Weave INTO the Negative Energy Sphere. They will sunder the Rod while channeling 12d6 points of positive energy.

The theory is that by sundering the Rod with positive energy, within the negative energy sphere will disrupt the Weave enough to remove the sphere's anchor on the Prime Material Plane, thereby removing it and destroying the Temple (since it is a magical construct connected to the Weave).

I am going to allow it. The clerics are essentially going to sacrifice themselves to accomplish this.

Any thoughts on the ultimate fate of the two heros?

Shunted to the Negative Energy Plane? Annihilated?

Aged enormously but not dead due the negative energy backlash. Blackened hand that becomes petrified and immune to any magical repair or regrowth. If its removed, a Durpari Plangent arm can be put in its place.

You could make a whole new arc where the two heroes risk being subverted by Pandorym through the Plangent arms.

Well the group slogged through a nerfed version of the Undying Temple. We killed Irae.

The plan is now to destroy the Negative Energy Sphere and thus the Undying Temple itself.

Two clerics will take the Rod of the Twisted Weave INTO the Negative Energy Sphere. They will sunder the Rod while channeling 12d6 points of positive energy.

The theory is that by sundering the Rod with positive energy, within the negative energy sphere will disrupt the Weave enough to remove the sphere's anchor on the Prime Material Plane, thereby removing it and destroying the Temple (since it is a magical construct connected to the Weave).

I am going to allow it. The clerics are essentially going to sacrifice themselves to accomplish this.

Any thoughts on the ultimate fate of the two heros?

Shunted to the Negative Energy Plane? Annihilated?

Aged enormously but not dead due the negative energy backlash. Blackened hand that becomes petrified and immune to any magical repair or regrowth.

I did this exactly. BUT I did allow magical repair via miracle.

I didn't want to take the PCs character away. She loves to roleplay him. So he will be aged now and become steward of our stronghold so she can still roleplay him.