>>101697034
I can't call Berserker evil because he has no free will of his own, he isn't governed by order and doesn't discriminate when it comes to picking fights, but he is not an evil character in his own right.

>>101697199>>101697189>His alignment is Chaotic Good.>A cold-blooded tyrant, and a hero who had sought and enjoyed all manners of treasures and pleasures.>Though capricious and temperamental, he does not (generally) kill someone simply because he is in a foul temper.>When he kills a person, it is either because that someone’s soul is abominable, or because that person has become an enemy of his.

>King and sentencer who weighs both good and evil equally.>To him, a life is only “that which will die this moment” or “that which will one day die.”>A being who is recognized by Gilgamesh as “a life that must die this moment” will be slain, even if a sage.

>“So in the end it has nothing to do with rules or conditions and just depends on what he feels like that day?!”>This kind of reaction is understandable, but that is what a king is.>Whether astute judgment synonymous to the truth of the universe,>or misrule during a drunken stupor,>if he is the one to implement it, it would become the indisputable adjudication of the king.>Such is the absolute sovereign.

>Though some see him as similar to Iskandar in their egocentricity, the greatest difference between the two is that Gilgamesh has no need of vassals.>Gilgamesh is a king who, from start to end, reigns by means of only “himself.” What he loves are “treasures” and “tools,” while a “person” is no more than that which must one day perish.>……No matter how worthy of love he may acknowledge that to be.

>Considering CCC’s themes, women’s issues can’t be avoided. Gil’s type is a “noble maiden.” (Ko-Gil’s is a “wildflower.”)>He dislikes women who are dependent on men and yet would make use of men. In other words, he dislikes “womanlike” women.

Lancer and Sasaki need to be swapped around, Lancer rebels against the master that forces him to do his bidding when he fights Gilgamesh knowing that he will fail. Sasaki isn't a bad person, but in all three routes, he only plays the role of an antagonist.

>>101696832
People that think Gil is just "Bwahah, kill everyone for the sake of it" just don't get him. He is chaotic good, he does love and protect humans, but in order to protect them it isn't just a matter of saving their lives but also playing North Wind and testing them, and the dead kids thing was Kotomine rather than Gilgamesh.

Neutral is about living by your code somewhat, Good is about living by societies code, and evil is by living by yet another sort of code I forget typically. Sasaki to the end was nothing but neutral, the guy just lived by his own code.

That's retarded. In the myth, the entire basis for telling Gilgamesh's story is his relationship with Enkidu and the despair it caused him to loose him. So in the end, isn't Gil just like some fat chick gorging herself on chocolate because she will never have the one thing he really wants.

>>101697638
Fake Assassin has no interest in the grail and no stake in the story, he doesn't actively seek out and attack other servants/masters and always treats them to a fair fight. He's a true neutral for sure.

>>101697911>he doesn't actively seek out and attack other servants/masters
Because he can't, he's bound to the temple i think at one stage he points out how annoyed he is by this because he can't go and fight people

>always treats them to a fair fight
According to Nasu him medea and Souchirou triple teamed berserker

>>101697974
She's not some psycho bitch even if you want to interpret scenes wrong on purpose. She's a pragmatist who will go against even the world itself in order to protect her own wishes, kind of like Homura. She is committed to and protects Sakura because at their core they are the same, and Medusa also went through something like becoming Shadow in the past. Even if the entire world turned against Sakura she would protect her unto the end, and even if she would destroy the world one day. Unless Sakura herself desired death, in which case she would grant it.

She's directly noted to be pragmatic and everything there, but she empathizes with the girl who is the same as herself.

>>101698224>that means killing off everyone but himself?
Did you even read F/SN? He doesn't want to kill everyone. If humanity continues at its current rate, we hit the disaster that happened in Notes and is happening in EXTRA.

Alignments are stupid anyway. It's impossible to classify a complex character with just that, and then there's arguing that lawful may not be lawful because he follows his own laws, even though that would suggest him being chaotic etc. etd. /tg/ always argues about this shit.
This system is flawed and only makes sense for describing shallow D&D characters.

>>101698224
Not kill everyone, he expected that there would be people strong enough to overcome this and be all the greater for it. Those who survived would be the cream of the crop, but after seeing all of mankind's hatred at itself at the end of Zero and going around for ten years seeing people with a lack of purpose or drive in life he just knew he had to do something to put some life back in them. So he just organized a small tragedy to make those who survived far stronger in his eyes, and if it really killed them all then that only means they were all utterly weak as even he had survived against the same thing (Shirou and Sakura did as well).

When confronted with an entirely different situation in another game he found a human so utterly foolish that it actually renewed his faith in humanity he sort of reversed his stance a bit and would fight something far greater than all the evils in the world in order to show the world itself that you may not touch what he has deemed as under his protection. Which is kind of like his stance in HF; only he may test his mongrels, but should anything outside of humanity put them in danger he will strike it down with his full force. Basically we see different sides of him in every route, and in UBW he's concerned about humanities lack of will or drive, and he figures the only way to fix it is to give them something to reinvigorate them almost Watchmen style.

>>101698573>When confronted with an entirely different situation in another game he found a human so utterly foolish
Are you referring to the MC/FeMC? Because he comes to like them for their resolve and strong will, not because of their foolishness.

Isn't some kind of libertarian euphemism for a universal holocaust of all but the strongest most talented and actually a vision of a good and just person, then I think I can't think of a term for you other than Randroid. Teabagger maybe?

>>101698396
I agree with you if this is for fiction but when you play dnd this hierarchy is flipped upside down. Lawful good is by far the most intreasting to play as because it's based around thinking outside the box.

>>101698848>then I think I can't think of a term for you other than Randroid. Teabagger maybe?

Who the hell says this is close to what I believe in, but if you can't understand the characters and why he's Chaotic Good in his own universe rather than Chaotic Evil because he's just "Gotta kill everyone" from your standpoint then that's on you.

Though it's noted that since he's in incarnated human in FSN which means his decisions do tend to be quite a bit more rash as his human blood has come to the surface, and thus his ideals tend to match present day humans more. Because present day humans hate themselves he'll respond to that desire.

>>101699146> find a way to make a character with a stereotype heavy alignment not a stereotype> THAT ONE GUY keeps on whining you're not role playing correctly because you're not playing the stereotype

>>101699199
She stated herself that she'd kill Sakura if Sakura directly asked for it, but if Shirou is just going to kill her in her sleep then she'll respond by protecting her, even if she can infer that she wants to die. Rider will go against Sakura at times like when she tried to drain Rin in the school to save her, but she would still do as she asked as long as it's a direct command.

>>101699320
Not a waifu, rather Rider's tend to be bros, but in this case she'll be yo bro even if the world and even you yourself won't stand by you because you were once the same.

When Medusa went Gorgon she ended up killing hundreds and her own sisters, and the reason she was killed in Nasuland is because when Perseus held up the mirror out of fear she in an instant saw just what she had become there, realized every sickening thing she had wrought, and was paralyzed by her own realization long enough for Perseus to take advantage of that moment and cut her head off.

Looking in that mirror she could only see her own inhuman form as the last vertage of her humanity came to the surface. Thus for Sakura who endured the same torture in silence Rider resolved herself to see this girl through this, and to be there for her like someone could have been there for her.

I never said he was chaotic evil, I just said he was fucking evil. His vision is an evil vision. If you don't believe there is such a thing as evil, that's another thing, but if there is such a thing as evil, the desire to make implement Social Darwinism on a huge scale is it.

Sorry to be off-topic here, but since alignments tie into /tg/ territory and I'm afraid of posting this there, I have a question for you guys.

Have you ever played a game where someone played a secretly lawful evil character who betrays their party and becomes a villain? I'm honestly curious because I want to try it out some time in the future.

>>101699856
I honestly don't know, that's why I'm afraid. I don't go to /tg/ really.>>101699837
Of course, I'd want the good guys to win. I wouldn't kill them right on the spot and I'd work with the GM to make it fair for them.

>>101701110
Sakura was asleep when Shadow was awake primarily, but the last few times Shadow was awake and eating people Sakura woke up halfway through and thought "Ahh, this strange dream again.. what is this anyway?". Agnya still controlled the body in those times as Sakura was only a bit away and just watching from the corner, but she thought they were just strange dreams at the time

>>101701110
Only thing directly stated is Medea kept Berserker slow with gravity magic and Sasaki kept pushing him away until he gave up.

>>101696832>IM GOING TO JUST RANDOMLY ASSIGN THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE I HAVE TO SHOEHORN ONE CHARACTER INTO EVERY CATEGORY>DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY ALL HAVE CANON ALIGNMENTS>MY OPINION > CREATOR'S CANON
Fateshitters are cancer.

>>101696832
Lancer isn't Evil; He's a knight who betrays Kirei in all sccenarios and believes in chivalry
Gilgamesh isn't Chaotic; His actions are clearly motivated by greed and pride.
Rider is Evil; Medusa is defined as an anti-hero in all scenarios

>>101702102
Lawful characters have ethical principles and codes of conduct and a lawful ruler would follow them. The CCC description shows that anything Gil says, even if it's a mistake while he's drunk, is a binding law.

People always get this wrong, Angra doesn't take over her body. She and the Shadow were becoming one as the Servants died. If she was actually walking at night all the time, she would he wet, or dirty, or have a lot of blood on her clothes.

Hell for the longest time people thought that Sakura chomped off his arm when any moron who reads the scene knows she had her consciousness in Rider using her vision for that battle and watched in horror, as he got in the way of the blast by putting his arm up at the wrong time. Mainly, it was an accident. They took her reaction out of context after that scene as wanting him to be hurt.

The very reason Rider is loyal to Sakura is shown in full in Hollow, because Sakura endured her fate with a smile, she even tells Shirou this in the backyard after they get back from the forest. There may be some bitterness and pain in her heart, but Sakura held onto hope in the depths of her heart all those years. That is why Medusa loved her.

>>101702127
Nah son, he was just the first King, not the King of everything. Even in his time his claim to owning the world was tenuous at best.

Plus his only claim to owning the world came from a bunch of Gods that are now dead and an outdated moral code society abandoned, he's just mad that its no longer recognized by people.

(if you're referring to GoB, then that's just a case of the majority of noble phantasms having existed in his treasury at some point/his legend giving him access to even more - more modern ones aren't even in it at all)

>>101702442>If she was actually walking at night all the time, she would he wet, or dirty, or have a lot of blood on her clothes.

What happened when Gilgamesh cut shadow apart again, and what was inside of it? Angya lived as her latent desire that no man can control any more than they can control every thought in their mind, but it was physically her it turns out. Sakura did not wish harm upon anyone, especially Shirou, but for any human bad thoughts come and go, and for those small desires and evil feelings Angya lives. The reason Angya attacked Rin repeatedly is because of Sakura's bitterness towards her at times, but Sakura would never conscientiously wish harm or pain upon Rin in such a way. Angya just takes those small twisted desires that exist within all and creates the result even if the person wouldn't act upon it.

Don't know why anyone would think Medusa isn't a bro, she is like one of two Servants who, like her master, is a helpful part of the household. She also is one of two Servants who went actually got off their ass and got a goddamn job instead of playing NEET. Bro enough for me.

>>101702685
Its stated in the VN he doesn't possess original ones made by humans of the modern day(though how far back that time period extends is not known), ones made by extraterrestrial entities or very rare exceptions such as Excalibur and Karna's stuff in apocrypha.

You need to pay attention a bit more. It was a clue to the player when the dreams she had became more vivid and less "scary" that the two were merging. It wasn't her latent desires, it was the id that was attached to a familiar.

Plus, Lancer stabbed the Shadow and went right through it when it was in the lake near Ryuudo Temple, and it was obvious that it had stages where it was like a spirit, running around, and didn't have a solid form. Besides, as I said in the other post, she was separate from her body when the incident in the forest happened. And Herc repeatedly cut up the Shadow trying to get the mud off himself. If she was physically there, she would have injuries. Until she actually accepted it as part of herself way late in the game, the regen was not powerful, and could not regenrate clothes, thus, your theory is wrong. Just as she can see through her familiar, Rider's eyes, she can see the Shadow. Late in the route when she is pretty much the grail and has a lot of spirits, the connection between her and AM is strongest, so they become one body, which is why she was hurt by Gil.

People usually forget that there were no deaths of townspeople before the end of day 10. Kirei already explained that as she became the grail, she would also in body, become the Shadow.

Some people for whatever reason like to take the quote to mean "No, he has everything" but the updated change in CCC means he doesn't have things created by another heavenly body, things from a new brand of humanity, and etc. However as a cheat he still has shit from present day humanity because "in a sense" because humanities desires have not changed since the old days, and thus of course they had planes back then.

>>101704105
In Ataraxia he admires a fishing reel Archer had when they were both trying to piss off Lancer, and he bet Archer over that item if he won the fishing contest while Archer potentially wanted one of Gilgamesh's rods.

Even if you throw out this example because "Comedy game" there are other instances and the whole description in CCC itself which leans itself to this idea.

>Gilgamesh is a collector of treasure. "I collected all the treasures of the earth," is Gilgamesh's favorite phrase, but that is not a metaphor. He collected and stored away a sample of all the technology that was developed during his age and sealed them.>That which Gilgamesh stored, rather than being treasure, is "the origin of the intelligence of mankind" itself. If it does not exist in Gilgamesh's treasury, then it is "something produced by a new breed of humanity, according a completely new concept," "something made from the technology of the culture born from the intelligent life from another heavenly body," one of the two.>For that reason, of course he has airplanes and submarines. The desires of the people from before Christ are not different, and it would not do for the crafts of ancient times when magic was in good health to be inferior to the crafts of the modern age. People generally realize the "tools of hope" that they dream of, and each time that occurs, it ended with them being confiscated by the king's hand.

Notice what it really says, if something is born from a new breed of humanity then it's not his for example. Notice in the third paragraph it goes on about how he has new age shit only because in olden times they had the same shit back then but better because magic, but not because he has new age shit at all. It was still just something created back then rather than items of modern at all.

>>101704969
Not to be rude/offensive/mean but.... Why would you ever pick dub over sub? Nothing, not even being a slow reader and not being able to pay full attention to the visuals can justify deliberately having horrible voice actors crushing the anime.

If it weren't for the "Not to be rude/offensive/mean" I'd assume you were the "hurr durr dub pleb" like >>101705707

Despite what many die hard anime fans and weaboo claim there have and will continue to be english VA casts that are better suited for the roles and/or more expressive in their roles. Japanese VA are not by definition better than their english counterparts and dubs can make or break certain anime (especially comedy).

There is one and only one thing about Japanese VA work that is hands down better and that is the treatment of the VAs and the inddustry at large.

>>101705834
I haven't seen the dub myself because having played FSN I probably wouldnt have been able to get over Gilgamesh and Kirei not sounding the same, plus at the time the dub wasn't out yet. But, the actors for the dub I've liked in other roles and seem like they'd fit the parts mostly, just do the usual and listen to the first couple episodes in both languages and make your own damn decisions

>>101696832
Wouldn't they technically all be chaotic good, save for maybe Medusa, Medea, and possibly Emiya? I mean, they are "heroes" after all. Sasaki doesn't really count as one, so I suppose he's an exception too.

>>101707966
Trying to put alignments to mythological figures is stupid since their actions were all over the place. King Arthur, the paragon of morality and chivalry was a rapist and mass-child murderer.

>Arthur rapes his half-sister, overtaken by lust for her. In any case, the discovery of the incest is usually disastrous; after hearing a prophecy that a child born on May Day, as Mordred was, will destroy him and his kingdom, Arthur rounds up all the noble May Babies and sends them away on a rickety ship. The ship sinks, and the only child to survive is Mordred, who is rescued and eventually returned to his parents.

>>101700272
Change places with Kariya and Kotomine.
And Kotomine didn't snap until the very end.

Meanwhile, Kariya was already broken from the beginning. He sugar coated his dark goals and desires, with a heroic paint-job. But in the end his drive was at its core jealousy of Tokiomi, and a vengeful desire to get back at him.
Parts of him even resented Aoi for choosing Tokiomi and not himself.

The sad part about Kariya, is that more than saving Sakura, or caring for Aoi and her family, he wanted picture related with his place instead of Tokiomi's. And he resented the entire world for it not being the case, Tokiomi and Aoi included.

Just finished Fate/Stay in the Kitchen All Day five minutes ago. Didn't like it as much as Fate or UBW. Sakura was a dull character, if it had focused more on Kotomine and Zouken I would have liked it better. In my opinion, Fate = UBW > HF. Anyway, I can now finally watch Fate/Zero.

I hope the original content in the ufotable Fate anime is what would have happened in Superhero/Mind of Steel. I feel sorry for Sakura but I just wanted to kill her off early to save everyone and end her suffering.

Heh, I expressed my wish for a Mind of Steel route when the first threads about ufotable/ stay night started. If a sequel for F Zero was written purely as a sequel without any regard for the fans of F/SN I think it would be Mind of Steel.

Alas: uFotable has come out and said F/SN 2014 will "satisfy all fans of the VN" which worst case scenario a combo route like DEEN/ Stay Night and best case scenario a long form multi-season route transcription of Fate & Heaven's Feel with UBW as an OVA

>>101710770
Lot of HF was saving the one who couldn't be saved; it's an uphill as shit fight to do such a thing, sometimes you'll look back and think it's not worth it, but if you're able to do it then it's a real miracle. You don't play that route for Sakura though, everyone knows that. If you like her then it's considered a plus, but even then you're not playing for her, just like you don't play UBW for Rin.

>>101711056>If a sequel for F Zero was written purely as a sequel without any regard for the fans of F/SN I think it would be Mind of Steel.

But that would be thematically redundant. We already went through that whole business with Kerry sacrificing everything he loved for his ideals and ending up a shell of a man because of it. There's no reason to do it again.

1) Yes, anime has always been known for constantly pushing the realm of mid-series re-invention. I wonder who the MC of Dragon Ball GT is, must be some new fighter with as much zeal as...oh...still fucking Goku (Note: I didn't say it would be the best route to go just the most likely as a pure F Zero sequel).

2) Though I get your concern about it being a re-tread Shirou's position would be the differing factor, he would have the mind of steel but he would not have Kerry's ability, which would make his rise to succeed his father all the more engaging.

I get that, I'm just saying that I didn't feel Sakura was compelling enough to abandon a lifetime of ideals for. But yeah, Fate is great because Saber and UBW is great because Archer. But even with Shirou/Archer being the driving force behind UBW I still liked Rin a lot more than Sakura.

>>101710770
We go over this enough, but there's no greater betrayal than Mind of Steel route. It's an ending where Shirou "Mr.Save-Everyone" decides to kill someone who is like family to him not even because she's the Shadow, but because "She's a master, being a master means she might fight, maybe fighting means that maybe people will be hurt, maybe people being hurt means I should just kill her now in order to protect any potential loss". This is the same guy who doesn't want to sacrifice anyone, the same guy who wanted to save everyone, yet he kills someone exceedingly close to him over literally nothing about something he had no idea she'd do here.

All Mind of Steel accomplishes is Shirou going down the path of Kiritsugu, killing all his friends, and then becoming mind-broken as he ends up killing far more people thatn his old man by mistake as it turns out Kotomine and Gilgamesh are free to do whatever now and just swoop in at the end to take the prize since anything that can challenge Gilgamesh no longer exists in this world. Angya Manyu is most likely released, and everyone in the town dies, happy ending.

An absolute betrayal of ideals and everything he stood for, the deaths of all his friends, and potentially everyone in town just for the sake of "I want to kill Sakura". If you don't think this is correct then think to yourself, what is really left that can stop Gil here from getting the grail and finally achieving his dream?

>>101711793
The thing with D&D is that in the world of D&D, good and evil are tangible, objective forces.
Which makes things all weird when the alignments try to relate to our subjective views of good and evil.

>>101711654>I don't see what the big deal about Sparks Liner High is though

Good music, reveals Archer's ultimate technique as the accumulation of all his labor and skill show he was finally able to fight on par with Saber and take down monsters with his greatest skill, one of the better battles in the VN, and it's not really called a bad end if you go back and check. In fact in Taiga Dojo they literally call it the Saber Ending of HF; especially with how heartfelt the entire thing was there with Saber going "is that really all I mean to you?".

Saber can't intervene with Sakura and Rin for ten minutes, and we know how that battle ends if Saber isn't allowed to intervene.

>>101711643
Resolving a central theme in a meaningful way is not any sort of "re-invention." It's the logical progression of the story. You can't spend an entire work basically telling your audience, "the way this dude is doing things is wrong" and then make a sequel that does the exact same thing. It's worthless.

Unless you're saying that ufotable's staff is not intelligent enough to understand how writing works (or they just don't care) and that they'd do the exact same thing all over again because they thought it was why F/Z was successful. That's kinda pessimistic, but I guess it's not entirely impossible.

>>101712125
Not really sure what you're going about here, but Rin doesn't stand much of a chance even if she has greater skill all around at present. After killing her own sister she's mentally unbound as it's noted she'll now do anything to get the grail lest she break down, and upon seeing the truth of the grail she will surely break down since she would be far worse than a heretic to go ahead with her wish. Shirou is someone who is already broken and thus even if he must become a machine he will not break, he will do anything it takes including becoming a bigger monster than Kerry now in order to show his resolve here. The one who is unbound vs the one who has become a machine of death, even with skill and a servant on her side Kotomine states rather plainly that there is no doubt in the result of this conflict anymore.

>>101712298
The thing with MoS Shirou is that he has the connections to get the relevant type of resources.
And is unhinged enough to do stuff like picture related, even if there were to be casualties.

Rin is indeed an exceptional magus, but she would be fucked if Shirou were to go full Punisher on her, without her expecting it.
Even Kotomine wouldn't prevail if Shirou launched an assault at him with fire-arms and explosives, having prepped the vicinity beforehand.

>>101712397
I was both posts, Shirou won't lose to Rin of course, but Kotomine is a master of half truths in the end. Shirou will win the grail, but Kotomine and Gilgamesh truly are free to step in at the end as nothing would stop them and why would they desire not to intervene considering their shared wish?

There's no doubt that Shirou would beat any master at present, but an attack coming from a place he never realized right at the very end would likely take him out as the prize is snatched away. Your green-texting in the previous post didn't really confirm much about what you were getting at since ">Shirou would let Kiritsugu win" I assume you may have meant Kotomine there and ">We go over this " is just incredibly vague.

Even Kerry at his best couldn't overcome raw numbers at times, and Shirou is just no match for that pair on his own here unless he can recontact with a very good servant before the end. Kotomine does not lie typically(Roughtly two things in the series he's said could be inferred as lies if you want to be serious, such as him saying he has the grail in Fate route. Nasu calls this a white lie however), but he will leave out information with purpose.

>>101712853>Its the ending where he truly follows his ideal inherited by Kerry with no compromising.

The idea Kiritsugu left him with was "I want to be a super hero that saves everyone"; he even goes over the explanation how this works in Fate route invovling a bank robbery, as he wants to save even the person sticking up the bank in the end.

That was the idea that Kerry left him with, it wasn't until HF that he learned that his father was really a mass murderer for hire that would kill the few to save the many. However even learning that this is not the idea that Kiritsugu wanted to leave with his son, this is the opposite of what he wanted to leave with his son as he worries about that quite a bit before his death as noted in the novels. He didn't want his son to follow after him in this path at all.

I wholeheartedly agree that >"We go over this"
is an extremely vague cop-out as its what I was quoting from >>101711842
There is no "we" just you positing some mass agreement that simply doesn't exist.

To say that Emiya will not trounce Kotomine in that route is just completely misunderstanding what the sentence

Emiya will become a superhero means. How can he defeat masters with servants without his own. The answer is plain as day: he will become EMIYA the canonical version of Shirou that is a superhero.

If you don't understand how a living EMIYA with the disposition of Kerry can trounce Gil, Kotomine or just about any combination you need to report to a powerlevel thread stat.

>>101713137
Saber will still have his moral issues
Archer unknown, probably won't get along well with Tokiomi
Lancer won't be bound by command seals and will probably do well this time
Rider unknown
Berserker will kill Kariya even faster than Lancelot did
Assassin unknown
Caster won't get along with caster and will die

>>101712853>Its the ending where he truly follows his ideal inherited by Kerry with no compromising.
No, that's not it at all. It's the route where Shirou discards his ideal justice in order to ally himself with a more conventional type of justice.

Archer and Shirou actually talks a lot about different types of justice earlier in the route, which is kind of lost in the translation when "ally of justice" is just plainly translated to "superhero".
Superhero admittedly isn't that bad of a translation for ally of justice, generally speaking. But in this context, it makes a mess of the text as the nuance of just what the fuck they are talking about is lost.

With the choice in the park, when Shirou becomes a "superhero" instead of protecting Sakura, would imply that the path is somehow heroic whereas the regular path somehow isn't.
And while that could arguably be true, what the choice is actually about is Shirou allying himself with a conventional form of justice instead of his ideal one.

He steels his mind, because the compromise kills an essential part of him. Hence Illya's quote implying that Shirou would fool himself forever, crying.

The Mind of Steel path is not the path where Shirou follows the ideal, nor is one where he becomes a "superhero".
It's the path where he fails to become the hero he wanted, and out of desperation clings to the idea that Emiya Shirou still has to become an "ally of justice/kamen-rider", because it's the only thing he has lived for. Disregarding how much it shits all over his ideal.

That's the nature of the Mind of Steel end. It's a compromise where he directly goes against his ideal that was everything to him. The end where he kills all his beloved. The end where he becomes an empty husk of a man, that's completely alone and with nothing left, out of an obsession of still needing to be an "ally of justice" in one form or another.

I don't think you understand the nature of the resolve he takes up at the end of MoS. He will do |anything| to win at that point. Your disbelief does however posit one of my main problems with MoS in that Nasu didn't have scenes of just how far Shirou went in that route to become EMIYA.

>>101713277
Kiritsugu however will not have as much of a problem with Saber anymore

Part of the reason he would not acknowledge her is that she was a fifteen year old girl who was basically sacrificed for her country due to a cruel age without reward or meaning. To him a hero was just a sacrifice by the people, and especially when it was just a small girl thrown to the lions so that they could have "peace" brought about by her loss. The entire system and the idea of people loving heroes that causes the system to endlessly which led to endless war for the sake of ideals like heroism, he hated it.

He'd still hate Saber on virtue of being a hero and thus one who propagates the system by being something seen by children as "inspiring" so they also wish for a life of swords and battle, but not as much now on being just a sacrifice made by the people since now he looks like he was old enough to make the choice for himself rater than just being chosen as the one who would suffer so others could string them up and celebrate.

>>101713657
Because FSN literally has D&D stats on the characters, but people just don't agree with them or don't understand the characters enough or understand D&D enough and think the current alignments must be wrong.

>>101712036
SLF ends with Rin getting stabbed and Angra Mainyu being born to the world. Even the cavern collapsing isn't enough to stop that. Shirou says that outright. So while it has a good fight scene the ending is bleak.

>I'll destroy the giant magic circle, and the shadow along with it. Angra Manyu's fetal activity is slowly destroying the cavern. …But I don't think it'll die even if the cavern collapses. I have to destroy that thing here and now.

>>101714508
Here's what Urobuchi said when questioned in Otakon 2012:>Have you enjoyed any other Table top RPGs over the years?>It has been a while since I have played a table top RPG like Red Dragon. But the last time I played a table top game it was in my high school days. I used to play Call of Cthulhu, Dungeons and Dragons, and Sword World which was created by Mizuno.

>>101714354>SLF ends with Rin getting stabbed and Angra Mainyu being born to the world. Even the cavern collapsing isn't enough to stop that. Shirou says that outright. So while it has a good fight scene the ending is bleak.

Rin is stabbed, Sakura is hating herself enough to almost break the contract to the point that Angya has to literally bind her in order to protect itself, at that point there are two variables left. Rider or Saber, if Rider shows herself before Sakura and Sakura wishes for death in that moment it could be granted, if Saber makes it there before Angya is born then Sakura may ask for death as well but it depends on who Saber's real master is in that moment whether it's Sakura or Angya. Either way there's a small hope left as we know Rider would be there for that moment and we knew everything leading up to that, but if Sakura is killed then Angya still might be born even if he's missing half of his body currently as he'll still try to force himself into creation and just find some humans to snack on nearby like Caster's summoned god in order to sustain it's existence.

Don't get me wrong, the ending is still bleak either way as even the best ending of Saber making it back in time to kill Sakura or Angya if commanded will still result in the cast dying even if it means the town itself can be saved. However with the current cards in play the chance of all out chaos being avoided does exist with Saber or Rider. The key point to remember is that in this outcome Rin is stabbed and Sakura in that moment is forced back into sanity as she does everything she can at that point to put a stop to it, so as long as the chance exists it can be created with that will. But, the ending is left vague with reason in that sense, they leave it up to the viewer to assume what happens afterwords since there no longer can be a point of reference left. That's part of what can make a good story after all, the outcome is left blank for the user to fill in at the end, but

>>101714860
as Saber mentioned in the end. No matter who the victor, no matter the outcome, the one whom they wished to meet and wished to live in the end will no longer greet them again. Shirou is dead, and no matter what happens from there on out the answer received in those final moments will leave a scar on any that might survive.

- Saber team would be just as effective as usual, since Kitsurugi is the driving force.
- Archer team would have great power and synergy, EMIYA willing to go great lengths to protect Rin's father from the suffering he saw in his time.
- Lancer team would be much better off with 5th Lancer, though they're still dramatically outclassed by other teams.
- Rider team would put up a good fight, but the lack of inspiration from 5th Rider (compared to 4th Rider) would prevent Waver from upping his game.
- Berserker team would be worse off, what with 5th Berserker not having a grudge to propel him.
- Assassin team would remain loyal to Tokiomi, since Gil isn't around to tempt Kotomine.
- Caster team would be broken up within days, just like with 5th Caster's first master in her war; the new master would probably be Tokiomi (Kotomine informing), or some random schmuck.

It comes down to how well Kitsurugi calls Tokiomi's actions as a mage, and how EMIYA chooses between his father figure and his friend's father.

>>101714951
That's kind of the second part, Bellerophon or Excalibur could take out Avenger's form if Sakura was able to command them still without being stopped by Angya. However the question there is whether Saber would even be able to do that considering she's kind of made of Angya in part. It won't take too much to break Angya's current form as even Shirou was able to do it, so Rider surely could as well.

It depends on if she would act though, or if Saber got there in time if not Rider. Time is of the essence though so it's hard to say if that's a path, but one would infer Rider would be present in the underground in that moment in spirit form all along considering her own desires.. Angya will be born if nothing else, but a path to end him is right there if possible.

>>101698119
A good person has to actually try to do good things like protect the weak and actually try to save lives. Gil does not give a single shit about other people's lives so how is he chaotic good?

>>101715165
Half the point is "This could be an ending where Angya is born and Fuyuki is devoured, this could also be an ending where some are saved, but the point of reference with Shirou is dead so it is anyone's guess". No matter the outcome the it'll only weight heavily on the hearts left, but it both options can be present.

I didn't see it as an absolute bad end, and it's not listed as such either, but no matter the ending reached it will leave a mark.

Tokiomi annoyed Gil, but he did not kill Tokiomi just because he was a mongrel. Being a mongrel is not a capital offense.

Gil prodded Saber during the King's Banquet because he wanted to see if Saber would endure a hardship like he would.

Gil had an honorable battle with Rider, though he could have killed him instantly.

Gil allowed waver to live, while an evil man would have killed him after presenting him with a twisted choice.

And, onto your post:

>satisfy his greed
It's his nature to be greedy. There is nothing evil about following one's nature.

>mold humans into something that disgust him less.
He considers today's humans to be lesser than modern humans, rightfully so. In the cosmic scale of things that Gil sees, improving humanity by culling the flock is a good action.

Good's job is not to defeat evil, or to even care. Good's job is to simply, be good.

He wants to kill 90% of humanity, because there's an excess of "useless" people. He wants to rape Saber. He went out of his way to teach Kotomine that he enjoyed other people's suffering. He consumed orphans to sustain his prana even though at his level of Independant Action he didn't even really need it.

>>101716211
That was Kirei's doing. Gil is not so impolite as to turn down an offering from his summoner, disgusting though it may be. Why would he care about such mongrels anyways, when they were already in a state of near death?

>>101716414
Here's the fucking thing: Nasu doesn't understand what Chaotic Good actually is. He can say "Gilgamesh is chaotic good" all he wants, but he has to make his characters match the concepts, not rewrite the concepts to match his characters.

>>101716325>He wants to kill 90% of humanity, because there's an excess of "useless" people. He wants to rape Saber. He went out of his way to teach Kotomine that he enjoyed other people's suffering. He consumed orphans to sustain his prana even though at his level of Independant Action he didn't even really need it.

>“Fool. As if my affection points would rise.>I am more indifferent now than I usually am.>Most of what goes on is none of my business, after all.

>If I were, for example, to become incarnated, my blood as a human would stir>and my nature would gravitate towards that of the humans of that era--->however, there is no such alteration here.

>Thus, I shall simply tour SE.RA.PH as I please.>Some trivial secret like this will do as fare.”

>....(sigh)>The hero who has known no fear since the Age of the Gods,>and lived only according to his desires.

>It seems that his way of existence is no different now as a Servant from when he was alive.

>....but come to think of it.

>Really, why’s this awful thing a Servant?

second reference

>Though such is the AUO, being an allied Servant, surely he will someday come to mutual trust with the protagonist and, along with light conversation, unlock his SGs.>Additionally, because he is not incarnated in Extraverse, he is not affected by the nature of the era’s civilization. In CCC, one may occasionally catch glimpses of the more personal sides of a neutral Gilgamesh from the era of the epic.

Gilgamesh in FSN while he couldn't be corrupted by Angya, was altered since he became an incarnated human as directly referenced. It's also stated in his bio that he judges good and evil equally, and sees life as something that either ends eventually or ends now, so his standards of good and evil are different from present day. It's not that he kills on a whim or with malice, but he'll only raise his fists against someone if they make him their enemy or become abominable.

>>101716469
But Gil is the biggest douchebag in the world. Even if you try to explain all his reasons, he's still hurting others, he's still killing others for his own obscure reasons and he's still causing others to suffer.

EVIL.

He might have once been a force of good, in the age of gods, but that's long since passed.

>>101716325
Gil does not put high priority on a single life, but he does love humanity. He prides himself on being an observer who will not intervene in situations primarily unless they require something only he can provide. It's noted in Ataraxia that he spent the time in between Zero and Fate as I recall in Child form so that he wouldn't really spend any mana, but he left Kotomine up to his hobbies and only really needed to refuel himself right before the war for the most part. Good and evil had a different meaning back then, which is why a hero like Hercules that imprisoned, sold, raped, and killed his own family(Not all of those things were done to the family, those are just different things he did) he was still a hero without question. Heroes were flawed back then, and to judge them fully with the same moral standards of today is a failure in itself.

>>101716673
Nowhere was it said that good and evil don't apply to him; all that was really stated there is that the difference in his behavior in FSN is with reason, and he is someone who looks over humanity equally and plays both protector and Tester to them in order to make them stronger, He does not kill out of malice or hatred generally, but only when someone would turn against him or become stained to their core. A good King is not just one who protects the people while watching them grew dull and weak, but one who also keeps them sharp so that they'd be ready even if he was not there.

For example, raping a bride on her wedding day was considered bad form even back then, which is why Enkidu was sent to fuck him up. However if Gilgamesh was told his servants that he would kill the most useless of them one day, then even if he killed one it would not be evil for a king back then. Different standards and practices were at work, but generally slaves were considered less than human at times.

>>101716865
Even simply leaving those orphans there was evil. Kotomine is kinda of difficult to argue about, since Gil's motives were mostly boredom. Breaking people to see how they react sure is pretty fucking evil, right up there with rape and torture. Incarnation sounds nice, does that mean it's okay to be evil if you're drunk?

>>101716527
We can at least say he's Chaotic - the whimsical nature of his character confirms that.

Between Good and Evil, it's a matter of interpretation. Is "Acting like a king" by providing protection for subjects a benevolent action, or is there no good intention behind it? Are the sporadic acts of cruelty and general callous attitude done in malice, or are they an extension of his Chaotic behavior?

I'd classify him as Chaotic Neutral. He's not acting for anyone's benefit, nor for their detriment; his sole concern is himself in a moment-to-moment fashion.

>>101717322>His alignment is Chaotic Good.>A cold-blooded tyrant,>When he kills a person, it is because that person has become an enemy of his.>King and sentencer who weighs both good and evil equally.>“So in the end it has nothing to do with rules or conditions and just depends on what he feels like that day?!”> misrule during a drunken stupor,>Gilgamesh is a king who, from start to end, reigns by means of only “himself.” What he loves are “treasures” and “tools,” while a “person” is no more than that which must one day perish.

Sure sounds GOOD to me

>was altered since he became an incarnated human

This would mean that F/SN Gil and F/Z Gil would have different alignments

>need to read his backstory more.

Have any of you fuckers read the epic of Gilgamesh? The reason Enkidu is summoned is because Gilgamesh is murdering all of his followers and raping all of their women.

>>101717473
Note that Gil is acting only because he considers that protection a requisite behavior for rulers. He's not protecting subjects because he cares about them, but because he cares about his position.

>>101717519>Have any of you fuckers read the epic of Gilgamesh? The reason Enkidu is summoned is because Gilgamesh is murdering all of his followers and raping all of their women.

That was in Nasu's version as well, but he got better. Guy went through his angry dick phase, had a good king phase, went into his insane hobo phase, and went back into his good king phase once more in the end. Raping women was indeed bad, but as stated twice now, he did stop doing it and get better.

It's like you think that he was only ever that, but read this to see how the rest of the tale goes here.

>>101717600>Note that Gil is acting only because he considers that protection a requisite behavior for rulers. He's not protecting subjects because he cares about them, but because he cares about his position.

How is that not good? Surely, you don't mean to say that anyone who is not an absolute saint should be Neutral or Evil?

>>101717781
I thought he remained HERO OF JUSTICE, and only went insane when he became a counter guardian and just killed, killed and killed because Gaia has a sick sense of humour and used him as a janitor to clean up a mess instead of prevent it from happening?

There have been a lot of Fate threads.
and a lot of stupid arguments about a lot of stupid topics.
But this has to be one of the worst.
Hands down.>2-3 people giving sources and citing why/who is he is the way he is>1-2 people completely ignoring everything and being stubborn saying that he's evil/evil
Fate threads can ONLY go downhill when the anime starts.

>>101718035
Nasu confirms that Extra Archer is the same as FSN Archer, and during his E-Matrix conversation he lambasts himself for shooting down a plane full of innocents infected with a deadly virus in order to save potentially millions. He goes on about no one has the right to make that choice, and how beautiful they were in those final moments working together so that at least some could survive, before he shot them down.

Also he confirms the same in UBW route, when he mentions how he always killed the few to save the many until he hesitated less and less when it came to making that choice with time. The terrorist bit is also from Extra, as he talks about his vigilante days and how the government hated him because he was pretty much the only man who couldn't be bribed or bought, which scared the hell out of them since they were corrupt as shit. Which is actually how he died in the end. He had another friend who was a vigilante who sold him out after Archer went too far with his justice one day, and the police were happy to do away with him since the idea of a human who only follows JUSTICE frankly scared them all, he was seen as almost inhuman to most.

>>101718183
His vigilante friend was also the same guy he talked about saving at one point in UBW. It was left vague so Nasu could go in and expound upon it later, but the core about him being sold out on trumped up charges remains the same.

>>101718538
But a Neutral king would not have slain Humbaba, or would have stopped raping wives. Were he neutral, he would not try to cull the modern population, or fight to save humanity in CCC. He is simply not Morally Neutral.

>>101698466
Terumi goes beyond Chaotic Evil, he's like...Terumi Evil or something. Hell, he's almost so evil he loops back around on himself and then keeps going just to see how evil he can really get.

And it amuses me that Makoto keeps fucking his wheels-within-wheels plans without even trying no matter WHAT he does.

>>101718676
Neutral isn't universally apathetic. For a Good person, it's painful to see others suffer; for an Evil person, it's pleasurable to see others suffer. A Neutral person wouldn't feel pleasure or pain based on the suffering alone, though they might care about the suffering for other reasons. In the case of Gil, his behavior is shaped by what he considers to be kingly.

You've got a point with Nasu's universe, but that's an incompatibility between Wizards alignment and Nasu alignment. Wizards universes are overseen by gods of objective good and evil, while Nasu deals with moral subjectivity. The more Nasu-like the character - Ceil, R.Shiki, Gil - the less a moral categorization system applies to them. Nasu alignment says Gil is Good, Wizards alignment says Gil is Neutral.

>>101713137>caster paired with useless retard>weakest servant paired with kotomine
suprisingly balanced
but I'd have to say the lack of kotomine/gil double-trouble would enable kiritsugu to fuck up everyone else

>>101719427
100% Good-aligned people wouldn't find pleasure in revenge, but there are no such people. Aside from gods. Schadenfreude isn't a Good action, but Good-aligned people can still find pleasure in the suffering of others - it just makes them less Good. Until they're 6 or less on a 1-10 scale of goodness, people are categorized as Good in Wizards systems.

>>101719323
Nasu's system is generally more forgiving in a way, as even one that can end humanity would still be labeled an innocent in some cases. Even if they bring death and destruction to humanity, it may only be judged as evil if it knows what it has done and sees it's own actions as evil in turn. A being lacking the same understanding as humanity often cannot be labeled as good or evil.

However even then with humans there is a certain forgiving or understanding quality about. It's not about passing judgement on them but rather understanding them in truth, and what they stand for. Of course evil will still be evil, but what defines it isn't such an obvious thing at times. There is a gap rule there that makes it a bit more complex.

He tries to kill her because his plans went out of control. That's it. The BS he said about not tolerating AM's actions falls flat when Nasu said in CM3 he has been pestering her to kill herself without explaining exactly why. You can see her being accosted by him in the prologue.

No matter how people try to spin it, the source of the problem isn't Sakura, but the Grail being fucked up and that fucked system being jammed into her body.

They even had Gil say the same thing if you beat Dark Sakura with him in Unlimited Codes. He never really cared to 'save his mongrels' but to do the 'selection' of executions as he sees fit.

>>101722736
Yes. Gil sees humans as his property and gets annoyed when someone other than himself kills them because it infringes upon his rights as king. (After all, he wants to use the Grail to wipe out humanity himself.)

>>101723709
I guess, but remember that DA's can live for a extremely long period of time namely Gransurg Blackmore and Trhvmn Ortenrosse, but getting bitten by a TA isn't a easy thing to accomplish i guess.

Becoming a vampire won't really stop the rotting of the soul, which is already an issue for Zouken, and there's the issue with becoming a huge target for the Church and the upper echelons of the Mage's Association for heresy.

>>101702564>depending on the frequency of his drunk escapades.
Go watch Zero again and look for the scene where Gil talks to Kotomine about his wish. Make a point to count how many wine bottles are lying around the room. This was about three days since he had been summoned, and I couldn't count them all but it's something in the vicinity of fifteen bottles. Take that as you will.

>>101725749>Conlaoch then came against Cúchulainn himself and was asked his lineage, but again could not tell it and so was challenged by Cúchulainn. In the terrible battle that followed the hero light came upon Cúchulainn and Conlaoch realised that he was fighting his father and that his mother had been treacherous, he cast his spear sideways so that it would miss Cúchulainn and shouted that he was his son, but it was too late Cúchulainn had already thrown the gae bulga (which he had won from Aoife) and it was unstoppable once thrown and thus Conlaoch was slain.

>Cúchulainn was thrown into a fit of rage and grief in which he lost his senses and started attacking anything in sight, so in order to save him and his friends from further tragedy, the Druid Cathbad cast a spell upon Cúchulainn causing him to see the waves of the sea as armed opponents. He battled with the waves until he collapsed from exhaustion.

"The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front… On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child… he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat… The hair of his head twisted like the tange of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage. ”

All of the rational people here trying to argue with /a/ that Gil is evil should just give up. Consider that this whole discussion is being frame by an ethical system devised for a tabletop RPG, i.e. a game, which is about the only situation in which /a/ would even bother with considering ethics seriously. The only ones who do are the types who did all that "Shurer" stuff during Guilty Crown, about which they were half serious at least. There's no point bothering to try to convince them of why culling most of humanity to "improve" it would be an evil action. Their way of thinking simply won't respond to anything you say.

>>101698396
How can True Neutral characters be more interesting than characters from any other alignment? They don't believe in anything. They're just normal people without any strongly held convictions or ideals, usually because they've never really thought about it. Animals and very young children are True Neutral.