(29-04-2014 12:45 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: I don't know a lot about nutrition and I won't claim that I do. If you care to look into it, you can find volumes on the subject and make a decision for yourself. Everything I have read has told me you can raise children, work out, be pregnant, or whatever on a vegan diet if you watch your nutrition and eat smart, maybe take a vitamin or a supplement if you need one. You don't have to take my word for it though, and you probably shouldn't.

I happen to be very up on nutrition my friend. Only 2 weeks ago I was in attendance at a seminar where the key speaker was a team GB Olympic nutritionist, my main staff guy in the martial arts, my number 2 as it's affectionately known is a qualified fitness coach and dietician. Veganism and vegetarianism are ok for people who live seditary or low activity lives, I consider light gym work and jogging in the park low activity, anything beyond that and the health repercussions are risky.

In the spirit of friendly exchanges, I would urge you to look in to it, it's not wise to choose a lifestyle and ask others to consider it if you aren't fully informed yourself. I am not trying to be obnoxious, I mean it, food has a massive impact on our health, more than a layperson will ever know! ... I am terrified of things like Veganism because I am aware of all of the nutrients we need. They just simply aren't there!

Don't be sold on synthetic supplements either, they aren't as good as the real thing and most vegans and vegetarians are blissfully unaware of the manufacturing process and the damaging effect on the environment! You can't win for trying mate, I respect the sentiment behind Veganism to an extent but not the misinformation that often goes alongside it more often than not! I also can not ever comprehend the willingness to circumvent one's self at a base instinctual level. It seems preposterous to me to completely circumvent the core of what we are!

(28-04-2014 03:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: I am a new member to the thinking atheist web forum, and a pretty new member to the podcast and channel in general. I really enjoy watching and participating in secular and free thinking discussion because I find that the community is much more receptive to reason and logic and in general more enlightened and open minded. I have been an atheist pretty much my whole life. I flirted with theism for a long time, primarily out of fear and uncertainty, but I started doubting at a very early age. I have noticed in the secular community that many people are a lot like me, we just don't fit in theistic communities. We tend to be incessant question'ers and challengers of ideas and authorities. While many believers seem to be very comfortable and rather uncritical of their faith, as atheist we just can't help but challenge it even if it hurts, and for a time anyway, makes us very unhappy. We just can't believe in something that doesn't make sense.

When I became a vegan more than a year ago, I found my "conversation" to vegansim to be remarkably similar to my "conversion" to atheism. At first I was a bit of a quite and abashed vagan, saying things like "its good for my health" and "the way the world is going there might be a day when the choice is made for me not to eat meat" and things like that, somewhat similar to the way people become "spiritual but not religious" and "agnostic but not athiest" as they settle into their new non-theist identity. I started to become much more aware of my culture, my society, the hypocrisies in the way we treat animals and evaluate life, and the non arguments people use to justify this position. Some 55-85% of people are theist in the US and abroad depending on where you go, but something like 68% of people are omnivores and about 30% of people are "vegetarians", meaning eat at least some animal products, and only 2% of us are vegan. Its an immense culture shock, and it become incredibly isolating when you find your self being the only person eating what you eat and the dinner table, or more often, not eating what everybody else is eating. As fundamental as religion is to most people, I truly believe food is even more so, and the way people talk about food is often nearly identical in structure and form to the way people talk about prayer, ritual, and god.

I don't particularly want to get into the specifics of the vegan argument, more so I want to draw a parallel between veganism and atheism in a few ways. Both vegans and atheist are often marginalized, ridiculed, and grossly misrepresented in general. (In my opinion) both atheism and veganism are more rationally poor and humanitarian belief systems than pretty much all other alternatives. Both veganism and atheism seem to be the natural evolution of rational thought and a logical, evidence based approach to either food or faith.

Despite that though, I think its a fair assumption that most atheist are not vegans. It seems to strange to me that these intelligent and compassionate people I so readily identify with and respect have not made the compassionate and rational leap to the vegan diet. For those who are not familiar and find this post very strange, I strongly recommend you look into the vegan argument. The social, political, environmental, economic, and humanitarian benefits to vegansim (both for animals and people) are extremely difficult to dispute. If you are a vegan atheist I would love to hear from you. If you are a non vegan atheist I am curious, have you done any research into veganism, and why have you ultimately decided to keep eating animals and using animals derived products?

As an atheist, I think nothing of vegans. Atheist-me has no opinion and cannot answer the question beyond that.

Outside of that however, I think veganism to be above a tad silly.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.

(28-04-2014 03:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: I am a new member to the thinking atheist web forum, and a pretty new member to the podcast and channel in general. I really enjoy watching and participating in secular and free thinking discussion because I find that the community is much more receptive to reason and logic and in general more enlightened and open minded. I have been an atheist pretty much my whole life. I flirted with theism for a long time, primarily out of fear and uncertainty, but I started doubting at a very early age. I have noticed in the secular community that many people are a lot like me, we just don't fit in theistic communities. We tend to be incessant question'ers and challengers of ideas and authorities. While many believers seem to be very comfortable and rather uncritical of their faith, as atheist we just can't help but challenge it even if it hurts, and for a time anyway, makes us very unhappy. We just can't believe in something that doesn't make sense.

When I became a vegan more than a year ago, I found my "conversation" to vegansim to be remarkably similar to my "conversion" to atheism. At first I was a bit of a quite and abashed vagan, saying things like "its good for my health" and "the way the world is going there might be a day when the choice is made for me not to eat meat" and things like that, somewhat similar to the way people become "spiritual but not religious" and "agnostic but not athiest" as they settle into their new non-theist identity. I started to become much more aware of my culture, my society, the hypocrisies in the way we treat animals and evaluate life, and the non arguments people use to justify this position. Some 55-85% of people are theist in the US and abroad depending on where you go, but something like 68% of people are omnivores and about 30% of people are "vegetarians", meaning eat at least some animal products, and only 2% of us are vegan. Its an immense culture shock, and it become incredibly isolating when you find your self being the only person eating what you eat and the dinner table, or more often, not eating what everybody else is eating. As fundamental as religion is to most people, I truly believe food is even more so, and the way people talk about food is often nearly identical in structure and form to the way people talk about prayer, ritual, and god.

I don't particularly want to get into the specifics of the vegan argument, more so I want to draw a parallel between veganism and atheism in a few ways. Both vegans and atheist are often marginalized, ridiculed, and grossly misrepresented in general. (In my opinion) both atheism and veganism are more rationally poor and humanitarian belief systems than pretty much all other alternatives. Both veganism and atheism seem to be the natural evolution of rational thought and a logical, evidence based approach to either food or faith.

Despite that though, I think its a fair assumption that most atheist are not vegans. It seems to strange to me that these intelligent and compassionate people I so readily identify with and respect have not made the compassionate and rational leap to the vegan diet. For those who are not familiar and find this post very strange, I strongly recommend you look into the vegan argument. The social, political, environmental, economic, and humanitarian benefits to vegansim (both for animals and people) are extremely difficult to dispute. If you are a vegan atheist I would love to hear from you. If you are a non vegan atheist I am curious, have you done any research into veganism, and why have you ultimately decided to keep eating animals and using animals derived products?

I'm not a vegan because I wouldn't like to be a vegan. I wouldn't enjoy life.

I would always be cranky because I wouldn't be able to tame my cravings (especially on my periods, but wait, you definitely have no idea what that feels like). Last night I was yelling at my mum because she hadn't told me that the meal she had prepared had raisins in it. That is my relationship with food. I want to enjoy food, or else life has no meaning.

Now, you may ask if I feel ok knowing that animals die so I can enjoy life. Well, I don't know, do you feel ok knowing that 90% of the products you use in every day life are produced in factories where poor children are forced to work? I don't suppose this makes you try and find products not produced in such factories.

That said, and since I have concluded that I can't change the world and that I'm really tiny and too stupid to make any significant difference to this world, I'd rather at least enjoy life.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."-Guybrush Threepwood-

Saying don't eat animals because it is wrong is stupid too. You can argue like peta does but let me ask you this, do animals think the same? Does saving a deer from being diner make the deer know not to attack you? Answer no animals don't care being a plant eater doesn't mean you are not a killer, but I say it is worst. Why? Because the dead body goes to waste. All that nutrition in the dead animal could have been used to keep healthy.

(29-04-2014 04:00 AM)undergroundp Wrote: That said, and since I have concluded that I can't change the world and that I'm really tiny and too stupid to make any significant difference to this world, I'd rather at least enjoy life.

That's called diffusion of responsibility and the tragedy of the commons. Those are NOT GOOD THINGS.

Lots of good comments. If I don't address you here please don't feel ignored.

cjlr made a great point for me. I have heard the "I'm too small to make a difference" argument before, and I think the question you have to ask yourself is "would the world be a better place if nobody ate animals?". If the answer to that is yes then you you should consider which world you want to be a part of. After all, the only way we as a species can stop abusing animals is if everybody, one person at a time, makes a commitment to stop abusing animals!

I understand it is tempting to draw parallels between eating meat and child labor. As the saying goes, two wrongs doesn't make a right. Many vegans are very conscientious of things like fair trade and working conditions for third world countries, and some of us aren't. Its a different topic worthy of its own debate, but it doesn't have any bearing on the moral question of eating meat.

I haven't seen any evidence or any good arguments for how come we need animal bits for us to be healthy. While I don't claim to be an expert, I have done a lot of research. The biggest problems facing vegans iron deficiency and getting enough calcium. As it turns out though, pretty much all soy milk and other alternatives are calcium fortified and you can get plenty of iron from things like beans and spinach.

If you eat in a "normal" vegan way your diet is rather low in protien, although it doesn't have to be low in fat. You can use readily available items like soy powder or whey protien if you intend to bulk up. If you care to look into it, there are many athletes in very demanding sports who are vegan. Matt Danzig, professionally MMA fighter, walks around at 170 pounds completely shredded, and he was vegan during his whole run on the ultimate fighter show and for all of his UFC MMA bouts.

PaleolitchicFreeThinker, I understand the point you are trying to make. We can't demand of animals the same kind of moral reasoning and intellectualism that we do of people. Its precisely because we have higher thinking faculties and can do things like use logic and empathy that we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than animals. Animals do lots of terrible things in nature, nature itself is not "good" or "benign". That doesn't mean we should mimic it. For my own part, I think of animals like most poeple think of their pets, or of very small children. They feel, and think, and have personalities, and can love and be loved, but they definitely aren't people. Worthy of protecting sure, but I am not willing to give them the right to vote or let them drive cars. Would send a dog to prison for life for murder either, it just doesn't make sense to judge people and animals equally.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: cjlr made a great point for me. I have heard the "I'm too small to make a difference" argument before, and I think the question you have to ask yourself is "would the world be a better place if nobody ate animals?". If the answer to that is yes then you you should consider which world you want to be a part of. After all, the only way we as a species can stop abusing animals is if everybody, one person at a time, makes a commitment to stop abusing animals!

Substantiate some of your god-damned assertions, bud.

We all know what you think; you've blindly trumpeted that since the OP.

Unless you're capable of explaining why there is no discussion to be had.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: I understand it is tempting to draw parallels between eating meat and child labor. As the saying goes, two wrongs doesn't make a right. Many vegans are very conscientious of things like fair trade and working conditions for third world countries, and some of us aren't. Its a different topic worthy of its own debate, but it doesn't have any bearing on the moral question of eating meat.

Disingenuously loaded, and once again wholly predicated on subjective precepts.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: I haven't seen any evidence or any good arguments for how come we need animal bits for us to be healthy. While I don't claim to be an expert, I have done a lot of research. The biggest problems facing vegans iron deficiency and getting enough calcium. As it turns out though, pretty much all soy milk and other alternatives are calcium fortified and you can get plenty of iron from things like beans and spinach.

Then you haven't done the research. It is extraordinarily difficult to derive complete nutrition from a vegan diet, even with supplements.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: If you eat in a "normal" vegan way your diet is rather low in protien, although it doesn't have to be low in fat. You can use readily available items like soy powder or whey protien if you intend to bulk up. If you care to look into it, there are many athletes in very demanding sports who are vegan. Matt Danzig, professionally MMA fighter, walks around at 170 pounds completely shredded, and he was vegan during his whole run on the ultimate fighter show and for all of his UFC MMA bouts.

Anecdotes are not data.

He's sure as shit the exception, and you know it. If you pop enough supplements and drugs, it doesn't matter what you eat.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: PaleolitchicFreeThinker, I understand the point you are trying to make. We can't demand of animals the same kind of moral reasoning and intellectualism that we do of people. Its precisely because we have higher thinking faculties and can do things like use logic and empathy that we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than animals. Animals do lots of terrible things in nature, nature itself is not "good" or "benign". That doesn't mean we should mimic it. For my own part, I think of animals like most poeple think of their pets, or of very small children. They feel, and think, and have personalities, and can love and be loved, but they definitely aren't people. Worthy of protecting sure, but I am not willing to give them the right to vote or let them drive cars. Would send a dog to prison for life for murder either, it just doesn't make sense to judge people and animals equally.

What without why is not a discussion.

You have explained nothing.

You've made loaded and borderline dishonest appeals to deontological feels while staking out pseudo-objective and sanctimonious high ground. That's not compelling. Nor is it productive.

(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote: Well my position is that its wrong to kill animals without good cause. I miss all the foods I used to eat a lot, despite what many vegans will tell you it never gets easy to fight the food cravings. That being said I haven't tasted anything so good its worth killing for.

You are starting from the view point that life is sacred. I disagree. Sometimes death is much preferable. The quality of life is what holds life's value.

In nature, many times when the quality of life has been diminished by illness or injury, animals will offer themselves to predators or crawl into a hole to starve themselves to death. In some cases the other members of the group will kill or eject the suffering animal because it attracts predators. In some cases mothers will quickly kill their offspring in view of a torturous death looming. Even when we are talking about animals, the survival instinct only goes so far, there comes a time when death is preferable.

So then, when the quality of life is preserved, and a hungry omnivore comes along, a sudden and painless death is a perfectly humane solution. If the animal is not aware of death approaching and does not suffer during death, it does not care about death.

If you really care about the animals, work towards bettering their quality of life and dignity in death. I am all for that.

If you are struggling with cravings, you are NOT getting what your body needs.

I do very much understand where you are coming from ethically, nature is very cruel and everyone seems to be eating everyone else. The entire flora and fauna of the world depends on eating other living things.

When you eat plants, you are eating living beings too, and after many years of experience with plants, I actually do believe that they are sentient. They do respond to outside stimuli in many ways, not just the sun and rain etc, but to such things as animals munching on them. One example is a honeysuckle shrub that used to grow by the fence inside a pasture for Llamas. In the course of 4 years it literally walked to the other side of the fence by making new shoots only on that safe side. Not exactly speedy, but the shrub succeeded and is a thriving, gorgeous plant now.

The world is what it is. You are endowed with a lot of empathy, as am I. It can be difficult, even exasperating, to live surrounded by killing of all sorts when you have an excess of empathy. I get that.

But you will need to establish a healthy attitude towards death if you are going to have quality of life yourself. Working towards keeping everything alive is futile, it doesn't work because of the way nature subsists. What you can work towards is increasing the quality of life of other life. You can buy meat only from small farms that allow their animals to enjoy life. There are many of these, and they are in need of support. You may have to get a freezer and drive a ways to pick up your meat, but you will be supporting a good way of life for the animals.

That is what you should be working towards, because it is the only thing that has a chance in hell of succeeding in making things better for the animals you love. Support the small, humane farms.

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man