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Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic?

I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

There probably isn't much scholarly interest in such questions. In any case South Slavs are majority Slavic in most cases, as is I2a-Din. Autosomally Serbs seem to be the most Paleo-Balkanic of the Slavs in that they have greater affinity to Albanian and Tuscan populations (though the sample below includes Slavicized groups like the inhabitants of the Sandžak region). To get an idea consider these models, wherin Albanians serve as a proxy for the native population:

Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.

I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?

There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you). The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup.

Perhaps Proto Slavs are connected to Dacians and this could leave a slim possibility of I2-Din and R1a being connected to the free Dacians in the Carpathian range. Connecting it to Illyrians is just wishful thinking. While I2 May have been present it surely was not the young clade I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs. Most likely it would be the basal I2a1 or the variety found in Sardinia.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria.

You are making a tautological argument there. You're saying South Slavs have I2a, and by coincidence I2a is widespread where Illyrians lived. That's not a coincidence, it's there because of the South Slavs.

Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.

In northern Croatia there are more E1b haplotype (Albanian, Vlach etc) than in southern Croatia. As well as haplogroups R1b and J2b.

The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women

.

This is possible in southern Croatia but it should be seen in the Y haplotype (it is not visible), women (Ilirian or Vlachs) do not come alone to Dalmatia or remain alone when Croats coming to Dalmatia.

For that reason, northern Croatia is not completely Slavic if we look at the Y haplotype, it is more Slavic in southern Croatia and Herzegovina.

As for Serbs, they have mixed with Vlachs, historical records speak about Vlachs who largely become today's Serbs, and live a few meters from Albania and Kosovo. Logically they have more Albanian influence and it is now evident in genetics.

You are making a tautological argument there. You're saying South Slavs have I2a, and by coincidence I2a is widespread where Illyrians lived. That's not a coincidence, it's there because of the South Slavs.

In northern Croatia there are more E1b haplotype (Albanian, Vlach etc) than in southern Croatia. As well as haplogroups R1b and J2b.

.

This is possible in southern Croatia but it should be seen in the Y haplotype (it is not visible), women (Ilirian or Vlachs) do not come alone to Dalmatia or remain alone when Croats coming to Dalmatia.

For that reason, northern Croatia is not completely Slavic if we look at the Y haplotype, it is more Slavic in southern Croatia and Herzegovina.

As for Serbs, they have mixed with Vlachs, historical records speak about Vlachs who largely become today's Serbs, and live a few meters from Albania and Kosovo. Logically they have more Albanian influence and it is now evident in genetics.

You're right, I was thinking about south-western Croatia and Rijeka.

I disagree that admixture necessarily shows in the Y-chromosomal haplotypes to a significant extent. In fact this isn't expected at all in male-biased migrations.

I disagree that admixture necessarily shows in the Y-chromosomal haplotypes to a significant extent. In fact this isn't expected at all in male-biased migrations.

But women do not go alone, if in the south Croatia exist

Paleo-Balkanicgenetic influence

and suppose it is from Vlachs or Ilirian influence, where are E1b, J2 and R1b balkan types in south Croatia. If you have scientific work who speaks about Paleo-Balkanic genetic in south Croatia then show it. I suppose it has more Paleo-Balkanic genetic in North and Northwest Croatia, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I say this because I have not seen any scientific work for south Croatia, if it is written somewhere I will respect it and then give a new answer when I see results from that scientific work.

But women do not go alone, if in the south Croatia exist and suppose it is from Vlachs or Ilirian influence, where are E1b, J2 and R1b balkan types in south Croatia. If you have scientific work who speaks about Paleo-Balkanic genetic in south Croatia then show it. I suppose it has more Paleo-Balkanic genetic in North and Northwest Croatia, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I say this because I have not seen any scientific work for south Croatia, if it is written somewhere I will respect it and then give a new answer when I see results from that scientific work.

As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.

As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.

Genetic analysis based upon the variation of Y chromosome haplogroups (hgs) has revealed that the populations of Western Balkan countries share a large fraction of the ancient gene pool of Southeastern Europe, where 70% of the paternal lineages consist of five European-specific hgs: E3b1, I-P37(xM26), J2, R1a, and R1b [31]. Marjanovic et al. [32] suggested that the frequency of NRY hg I-P37 observed in Bosnia and Herzegovina is particularly high and could be partially attributed to genetic drift. High frequencies of hg I-P37 are observed both in Bosniacs (Bosnian Muslims) (43.5%) and Bosnian Serbs (30.9%). This shows that different ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina share a large subset of their paternal lineages, affected by a major demographic event, the post-LGM expansion. A population with a high frequency of I-P37 from one of the refuges, located possibly in the Balkans, played a great role in the peopling of Bosnia and Herzegovina and surrounding areas. Similar results were observed for Croatian populations [

This is a scientific paper from 2014, he's out of date. At that time and I2a I-P37 is a Balkanic so we can not make a proper conclusion.

This is a scientific paper from 2014, he's out of date. At that time and I2a I-P37 is a Balkanic so we can not make a proper conclusion.

The haploid data is irrelevant here - we are talking about the autosomal DNA. As can be deduced from the models I posted above, Bosnian Croats should trace about half of their ancestry to populations that were very similar to present day Albanians.

The haploid data is irrelevant here - we are talking about the autosomal DNA. As can be deduced from the models I posted above, Bosnian Croats should trace about half of their ancestry to populations that were very similar to present day Albanians.

This is in all likelihood the Paleo-Balkanic signal.

Croats in Bosnia were surrounded by newly arrived Vlachs and marrying with Vlachs women's is possible, but we do not have data for south Croatia. In scientific work are only this data

There probably isn't much scholarly interest in such questions. In any case South Slavs are majority Slavic in most cases, as is I2a-Din. Autosomally Serbs seem to be the most Paleo-Balkanic of the Slavs in that they have greater affinity to Albanian and Tuscan populations (though the sample below includes Slavicized groups like the inhabitants of the Sandžak region). To get an idea consider these models, wherin Albanians serve as a proxy for the native population:

Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.

That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).

Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).

What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?

That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).

Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).

What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?

well according to Dibran; "There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.

well according to Dibran; "There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.

its not according to me. It’s according to the actual DNA results. A simple google search will bring it up for you. There’s published papers that mention these. Specifically J2b-L283 in specific. If you go to the haplo section for J2 it mentions the sample I am referring to.

Slavs married native women. That explains how native dna was passed down into Balkan Slavs. Paternally you’re Slavic. Technically so is my line. Even though I’m Albanian it probably arrived with Proto Slavs during the Middle Ages. Nothing to be ashamed about.

The only souths Slavs with native paternal Y chromosomes are Bulgarians Macedonians and to some extent Montenegrin and Serbs. However most Serbs, Bosnians and Croats are paternally descended from Slavs in majority.

Theres been no I2a1b in Illyrians. The clade almost all south Slavs belong is exclusively a young downstream clade under CTS10228. The parent of which was found in Motala.

Sarmatian elite were probably R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. Much of the groups referred to as Sarmatians were probably Proto Slavic any ways. The only Balkan group that could maybe be connected to Proto slavic tribes is Dacians in the Carpathians. Not Illyrians.