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Does anyone have pet insurance which does not insist on annual vaccinations?[/quote]

I believe quite a few insurance companies will provide insurance without a need for annual vaccination but they would not insure the pet for an illness that could have been prevented by vaccination. So if you do not have vaccination or boosters against distemper for example and your dog contracts distemper they would not cover treatment but if your dog broke its leg it would be covered. Just on a quick a Google search I found this Pet Insurance broker that has this question under FAQs :

Following on from the above question re insurance companies not insisting on annual vaccination, I have rung Petplan and they have told me that they do not require pets to be vaccinated in order to be insured however they will not pay out for a claim relating to a disease which the pet could have been vaccinated for and had not been. Any other claim unrelated to a disease for which vaccination is available would be covered in the normal way.

zeta1454 wrote:Following on from the above question re insurance companies not insisting on annual vaccination, I have rung Petplan and they have told me that they do not require pets to be vaccinated in order to be insured however they will not pay out for a claim relating to a disease which the pet could have been vaccinated for and had not been. Any other claim unrelated to a disease for which vaccination is available would be covered in the normal way.

This is what I've always understood to be the case and believe a lot of the fear around insurance and vaccinations is misinformation that just gets repeated and repeated.....like so much in life, myths and half baked info and ideas become fact, and feed people's fears Look at your individual policy, 'tis the only way to be sure.

Although this is an old post, the information is still very relevant and the link given at the time (2013) is no longer valid. For anyone who would like to read it, the WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines for New Puppy Owners may still be accessible here:

It is an easy to read document and it is a shame that it seems to have been replaced with a much more difficult to read booklet covering vaccination of dogs and cats generally. Much of the information is the same and the newer document is clearly more comprehensive and detailed but less accessible to most pet owners IMO.

I have selected a few of the relevant paragraphs and information that may be of interest to anyone who is not being fully informed by their vet.

1) As regards the duration of immunity (how long a dog is likely to be able to successfully resist infection to a disease due to immunity gained via vaccination) the following applies to Distemper; Hepatitis (Adenovirus) ; Parvovirus:

"DOI after vaccination with MLV vaccines is 9 years or longer in the majority of dogs, based on challenge and serological studies
(Schultz et al. 2010)."

In other words, if a dog has been successfully immunised by vaccination with a Modified Live Vaccine (MLV) which is the usual type of vaccine used in the UK for the above three diseases, they should not need to be revaccinated for many years to come.

A titre (titre) test is recommended to establish whether or not a dog needs to be revaccinated and this test only needs to be positive, not to reach any particular value:

"The presence of serum antibody, regardless of titre, in an actively immunized dog over the age of 20 weeks is correlated with protection."

This is repeated in the FAQ section:

"For CDV, CAV-2, CPV-2 *and FPV the antibody titre will be consistently present at titre. This has been shown in numerous field serological surveys of dogs last vaccinated up to 9 years previously and in experimental studies for dogs last vaccinated up to 14 years previously"

"The presence of antibody (no matter what the titre) indicates protective immunity and immunological memory is present in that animal. Giving more frequent vaccines to animals in an attempt to increase anti- body titre is a pointless exercise. It is impossible to create ‘greater immunity’ by attempting to increase an antibody titre."

"Leptospira vaccines provide relatively short-term immunity. Also, some Leptospira products prevent clinical disease, but fail to protect against infection and shedding of the bacteria, especially when infection occurs more than 6 months after vaccination. Persistence of antibody after vaccination will often be only for a few months and immunological memory for protective immunity is relatively short (e.g. 1 year).

As regards coronavirus vaccines which some vets still use:

"The VGG (Vaccination Guidelines Group) does not recommend the use of canine coronavirus vaccines as there is insufficient evidence that this vaccine is protective, or indeed that enteric coronavirus is a significant canine pathogen. Variant strains of this virus have been reported to cause severe systemic disease in adult dogs and puppies in various parts of the world, but it is unclear whether the available vaccines would protect against these variants. The identification of coronavirus with a test kit does not necessarily mean it is the cause of disease."

As regards dogs with certain chronic illnesses, in answer to the question:
"May I vaccinate pets that are on immunosuppressive or cytotoxic therapy (other than glucocorticoids) (e.g. for cancer or autoimmune diseases)?

No. Vaccination especially with MLV products should be avoided as they may cause disease; vaccination with killed products may not be effective or may aggravate the immune-mediated disease"

And, in answer to the question:
Should one vaccinate an animal which is diseased, hyperthermic or stressed?

No. This is contrary to good practice and the advice on most vaccine datasheets.

While I would hope that most responsible vets are aware of and understand the importance of the vaccination guidelines, I know that some vets seem not only unaware of the contents but ignorant of the fact that these have been compiled by vets from around the world including the UK and are not, as one claimed, only applicable to the USA.

If you search online, you can find the information data sheets supplied by vaccine manufacturers for the vaccines they produce. Their licence to manufacture and supply these for veterinary use is based on the information given, including the DOI (duration of immunity). As the WSAVA guide explains, this figure is simply based on the number of years for which the vaccine manufacturers have tested their product - it is not based on the actual duration of immunity in dogs beyond that time. The vaccines that were originally licensed for one year did not change their "recipe " when they decided to extend the DOI to three years, it was simply that the manufacturers tested for three years instead of one and found the dogs still had immunity. The cost to them of continuing to test dogs up to 10 or 15 years of age being too high for them to consider.

To quote the Guide direct:

"The data sheet or SPC is a document that forms part of the registration process for a specific vaccine. A datasheet will give details of the quality, safety and efficacy of a product and in the case of vaccines will describe the minimum duration of immunity (DOI) of the product. The DOI, based on experimental evidence (i.e. how long after vaccination is an animal protected from infection or disease as determined by challenge with virulent infectious agent), represents a minimum value and need not reflect the true DOI of a vaccine. Most companion animal core vaccines, until relatively recently, had a 1-year minimum DOI and carried a recommendation for annual revaccination. In more recent years many of the same products have been licensed with a minimum DOI of 3 (or sometimes 4) years. In fact, in many countries the majority of core MLV vaccines are now licensed for triennial revaccination of adult animals.

However, there are many other countries in which the identical products still carry a 1-year minimum DOI; simply because the manufacturer has not applied for a change in its product label recommendations or because the national licensing authority has not permitted the change to be made. This unfortunate situation does lead to confusion amongst practitioners in those countries. Above all, it must be remembered that even a 3-year license is a minimum DOI for core vaccines and for most core vaccines the true DOI is likely to be considerably longer, if not lifelong, for the majority of vaccine recipients."

"The VGG recognizes that at present... serological testing might be relatively expensive. However, the principles of ‘evidence- based veterinary medicine’ suggest that testing for antibody status (for either puppies or adult dogs) should be better practice than simply administering a vaccine booster on the basis that this would be ‘safe and cost less."

The full guide is an interesting and informative document and I do encourage anyone with an interest in vaccination of dogs (and cats) to read it

Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

And l would ask as many people as possible to log on to DOGS NATURALLY MAGAZINE,particularly
on the subject of vets and what they know about Vaccines.Most or infact nearly all dogs only require
one Vaccine (lasts 15years ) and perhaps two of Parva (lasts upto 9yrs ) The boosters are a waste of time
and probably do more harm than good !!!
Another fact,is that Kibble (dried food) causes Arthritis and Tumours as well as in some cases Cancer.
We as responsible dog owners should feed RAW,as it is the only way to see our dogs live a long,healthy and
happy life without the pain they now go through.
It is a site well worth visiting with plenty of assistance.Just read it that is all l ask,wish we had come
across it a long time ago.Our dogs are a lot more lively and do not lay about the house all day sleeping,they
are in the garden chasing each other and playing for hours.
Make your dogs happy and help them live longer.For what they give you,they deserve it.

Syd I really don't agree with your conclusion that we have to feed raw food to our dogs in order for them to live a long, healthy and happy life nor do I agree that if you don't feed them raw they will lay about the house all day sleeping. Perhaps in a few years there will be more evidence based research on the comparison between raw and other foods. There are some really good products on the market that dogs thrive on and excellent websites that review these foods so that we have as much intelligence as possible when selecting for our dogs.

Every snack you make
Every meal you bake
Every bite you take
He'll be watching you......

Regarding vaccination, many people believe that vaccination is the same as immunisation which is where much of the problem lies and vets do not know or do not fully explain to clients how vaccines work and that they do not always immunise (protect against disease) all puppies or dogs. Nor do vets provide any proof that a puppy has been immunised after their first vaccination /course.

Many vaccine manufacturers, knowing that people want to get their puppies out and about to socialise them, have tried to make the vaccines effective from 10 weeks of age and data sheets can state that this is the case. However, puppies can still have antibodies to disease from their mother circulating up to 16 weeks of age, so there is always going to be a risk if a puppy had its last vaccine before 16 weeks old, that it has not gained immunity against Distemper, Parvovirus and Hepatitis (Canine Adenovirus). Apparently the Parvovirus protective antibodies can be the last to fade so a puppy may have gained immunity to the other two diseases but still be vulnerable to Parvo. This is why you hear of puppies / dogs under a year old becoming ill with Parvovirus despite being vaccinated - because they were not immunised.

I cannot understand why all vets nowadays do not include a titre test at 20 weeks in their vaccination programme for all puppies to ensure they have responded effectively to the jab/s. Not providing some proof that a vaccine has worked is taking money from clients for a service they are not providing, in that clients are presuming they have paid for their puppy to have protection from the diseases they were vaccinated against rather than just handing over money for chemicals to be injected into the puppy with no beneficial effect. Only one jab is needed to immunise but it must be given at a time when the puppy's immune system can respond effectively which is usually once the maternal antibody protection has faded. This can be as early as eight weeks in some pups but as late as 16 weeks in others and there is no way of knowing before vaccinating which pups still have maternal antibodies circulating which will prevent the vaccine working. This is why vets offer a "course" of vaccinations - not because the puppies need several jabs but because they know some pups will not have responded to the earlier ones. Sadly for those who did, this can lead to overstimulation of the immune response and greater likelihood of adverse reactions and, for those who were very late losing their mother's passive protection, it will still not have given them immunity to disease unless the last jabs were at 16+ weeks of age.

As long as a puppy has been immunised against the three core diseases of Distemper, Hepatitis and Parvovirus they will have long term protection against these diseases without needing to be revaccinated. Modified Live Vaccines (MLV) for these three diseases are similar to those used in humans for e.g. Measles and how many people are being revaccinated every year (or even every 3 years) against measles for their whole lifetime? As the NHS website states:
"Because a live vaccine is the closest thing to a natural infection, it typically produces a strong immune response and often gives lifelong protection."

So there is no need to revaccinate a dog for the three core diseases as long as you have confirmation that s/he has been immunised or has a natural protective antibody titre but do not rely on a vaccine or course of vaccines for a puppy that finished before 16 weeks of age as they may not be fully covered against all three diseases. You may still decide not to revaccinate but at least will be aware that your dog may be vulnerable to contracting them.

Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

Thank you too for your input Syd and the mention of the Dogs Naturally magazine which does have many informative articles.
Re the issue of raw food, I have posted a new topic on different kinds of dog food which may be of interest. Please do contribute there on the topic if you wish. It is a subject which can rouse as much passion as the debate over vaccination although, whatever your viewpoint, it is important to look at wider evidence than just personal experience, however significant that is for your own dogs.

As Julie said above, the most important thing is to have as much information available as possible whether on food, pharmaceuticals, or any other health product so as to be able to make the best informed choices we can for our dogs and their overall health and well-being.

Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

I will definitely titer test Otto next year after his allergic reaction to his 12 month booster. My vet is very pro boosters though so I may have a battle on my hands!

You will not have a battle on your hands.The vet is providing a service,and no matter
how good they are they do as they are asked.Getting on with your vet does not cure your
dog,dogs.
I personally would advise a look online at "Dogs Naturally Magazine " This should give
you all of the information you need to help your Pets live a long healthy happy life.

To include only one injection at the beginning of their lives,one or perhaps two against
Parva.The first lasting 15 yrs,Parva 8yrs. Too many boosters,or any boosters lead to bad health.
Arthritis,Cancers and drying out of most joints.This from experience.We now feed raw with necessary
supplements and Vitamins.
Thank you for taking the time ti read this,your friends will be better for ir IF you practice it !!!

Useful info on your vaccinations. I have just had a reminder from my vet about 1st annual booster. I found the data sheet for the puppy vacs that he had a year ago and checked the protocol. I don't need to revaccinate for the 3 core vaccines for another 2 years and will titer between now and then if the opportunity arises. Lepto and KC optional and I won't be vaccinating against these. Thought I would post the sheet in case anyone wants to see one and find there own. https://www.msd-animal-health.co.nz/bin ... -37108.pdf

Every snack you make
Every meal you bake
Every bite you take
He'll be watching you......

Hi, I’m getting very confused! Our mini is due her 1 year booster vaccinations next week. She had 2 sets of vaccines as a puppy. After reading about some horrible reactions to the leptovaccine we made the decision to have the three core vaccines and not the lepto. However our vet says that is not possible as they are combined in one vaccine and the lepto can’t be separated. I rang another vet who said the same thing. They were pushing the lepto 4 but said I could have the lepto 2 if I really wanted to. I don’t know what to do?

Hi Hilary - I am sorry to hear that the vets are being obstructive when you ask for the core DHP vaccines and not the Lepto. It is absolutely not the case that DHP vaccines are already combined with either Lepto 2 or Lepto 4. A vet practice may decide to mix the two in one when they vaccinate a dog but this is taking a vial of one vaccine and mixing it with a vial of the other. Do you know what brand they are using? Nobivac DHP and Nobivac Lepto 2 & 4 are certainly available separately and I have not heard of a pre-blended mix of these products. The product information for Nobivac DHP states:

"The contents of one vial of reconstituted vaccine should be injected subcutaneously. Reconstitute immediately prior to use by the addition of the contents of one vial (1.0 ml) of the diluent provided or the vaccines of the Nobivac series against rabies or leptospirosis as mentioned in section "Interactions" (where these products are authorised)."

This indicates that a liquid to dilute the DHP vaccine is provided by the manufacturer with the product and may be used instead of the Nobivac rabies or Lepto vaccines which are separate products.

You could ask for a titre test for your mini which would establish whether or not she even needs a "booster" for the DHP. Our mini, Pip, was vaccinated at 12 weeks just once with DHP and a titre test at 18 months showed she had immunity to all three diseases and did not need the booster. There is no need to revaccinate if your mini already has immunity, it is only if the initial vaccines failed to immunise that your girl will need another DHP jab.

Vet practices do vary as to whether they offer an in-house Vaccicheck titre test at a cost of £35 - £45 or send the blood sample to a pathology lab for testing which can be over £100. If you did want to have a test done and your vet does not offer the more reasonably priced service you could see if another local practice would carry out the titre test for you. Vaccicheck UK have a good Facebook page with details of the various veterinary centres that offer this service or they can do the test from a sample sent to them by your own vet.

The vets you mention seem to be deliberately being awkward. I know many people who have decided to only have the DHP as we have done and there has never been an issue with the vaccines even with the vets who prefer to give Lepto. They have all agreed to give just the DHP. Do ask them which vaccine brand they are using if you do not already know. The data sheets for veterinary products are available online and may offer some information on this?

Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole. ~Roger Caras

I was told by my vet that a one year old dog would be sick with Lepto but with early intervention with antibiotics they would make a full recovery. With an 8 week old pup, he said the outcome could not be as certain and so I relented and agreed to the Lepto 2 and refused the Lepto 4. I watched as he put the Lepto 2 vaccine into the DHP and then gave Edie one injection. The manufacturer was Nobivac.

We agreed that she would have no further vaccinations but would have a titre test done at 3 years.

The whole situation round the Lepto is absurd as even the manufacturer admits that its useful life is less than the year it's supposed to cover. To have full cover, there should be an injection every 6 months so why they push the sale of this vaccine can sadly only be down to one thing - money.

I would ring round the vets in your area and find out who uses Nobivac and get the DHP if that's what you want. They do not have to put in the Lepto or Rabies as they can use a manufacturer supplied dilutant instead.

Hilary I would also encourage you to check your data sheet for the vaccine your mini would have been given. When Otto was poorly very recently the vet thought that he might have Parvo because he said we had missed our 1 year booster. Otto had had puppy injections at 8 and 10 weeks. The data sheet was very clear and said that the Nobivac DHP which he had had gave immunity for 3 years after the 10 week jab so I told the vet that is why I had not boostered Otto. The vet said he would check it and when he had checked it he agreed that I didn't need to booster. So do check that you need the 3 core vaccines booster after 1 year. Lepto is indeed different and I have decided not to vaccinate against Lepto because of the short immunity and my consideration of risk/treatment if caught. If I hadn't looked at the data sheet for the core vaccines, which will be available on the internet for you to check, the vet would have given a full booster of the core vaccines when they weren't needed and I guess many dogs have been over vaccinated by my vet because of his lack of knowledge. Hope this is helpful as I don't want to add to any confusion.

Every snack you make
Every meal you bake
Every bite you take
He'll be watching you......

Thank you so much for your replies. I have now found a vet who is prepared to give just the DHP vaccine and so we are going to have that. From then on we will probably do the blood test every few years with no lepto. I found that you have to be really strong and stick to your beliefs as all the vets practices I talked to really put the pressure on to vaccinate against everything.