Scottish politics

No, Scotland's problems aren't "mirrored exactly". The UK's deficit has (mainly) explainable reasons and is in large part a direct result of the financial crisis. The deficit problems of a notional independent Scotland different in nature

Are you serious? This country has been running deficits for centuries!We have borrowed too much even in the boom times this is a historical fact. Please don't think that mismanagement and governement profligacy is 4 years old or that the only reason for the deficit is this most recent economic collapse. National debt is now at over £1 TRILLION! We already had one of the worst structural deficits in the EU & an overreliance on fake wealth from the city & housing inflation prior to the credit crash which to me was simply the markets trying to correct themselves after the corruption and manipulation of greedy bankers had set the collapse in motion. Whether we had crashed then or now it was clearly an unsustainable direction that the country was taking. Deficits are a problem in good or bad times, ultimately the British people are all living beyond their means and will either have to work harder and pay more tax or continue to borrow as if nothing is wrong. But there will come a time when it will be too expensive to do this and we will start to go bankrupt as any country will that can't afford the interest on its debt.

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The problem here is that you're attempting to draw conclusions simply based on a cursory glance at the figures without understanding the underlying causes

No the problem here is that you think anyone that disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about and are not nearly as smart or as knowledgeable as you are.

I am actually looking at your facts and to me you are merely skewering them to support your position, I am offering an wider take on them, you don't like it fine and if it makes you feel better I will concede or we can continue later but really there is a lot of spin going on here in my view.

No the problem here is that you think anyone that disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about and are not nearly as smart or as knowledgeable as you are.

I am actually looking at your facts and to me you are merely skewering them to support your position, I am offering an wider take on them, you don't like it fine and if it makes you feel better I will concede or we can continue later but really there is a lot of spin going on here in my view.

I tried the"lets agree to disagree" line but was sucked back in. When Tennis Girl ( an agent provocateur?) asked for a source of my facts I directed her to the Scottish Parliament website which seemed to enrage Boogers and he was off again. He can't seem to understand why I am a bit cynical about facts and figures, experts in general and economists in particular. I wonder where these people who can see into the future were when the credit crunch was looming. You are doing a grand job! Good luck.

No the problem here is that you think anyone that disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about and are not nearly as smart or as knowledgeable as you are.

I am actually looking at your facts and to me you are merely skewering them to support your position, I am offering an wider take on them, you don't like it fine and if it makes you feel better I will concede or we can continue later but really there is a lot of spin going on here in my view.

To be fair TCBM, you'd need to produce figures of your own proving him wrong if you want to make that final point. Otherwise you look just like littlebuddha or iluvandy - accusing Phil of falsehoods without proving it. I'm genuinely not trying to be antagonistic, BTW.

To be fair TCBM, you'd need to produce figures of your own proving him wrong if you want to make that final point. Otherwise you look just like littlebuddha or iluvandy - accusing Phil of falsehoods without proving it. I'm genuinely not trying to be antagonistic, BTW.

I am not accusing Phil of falsehoods just pointing out I don't believe everything in print. He obviously does believe all his figures therefore he is not lying. I'm sure I remember someone saying something like "ask two economists one question and you'll get at least three answers". I guess that makes me a cynic.

I am very torn by this as I'm married to an Englishman, so my children are 'half and hawf', and I have grandchildren too, but I would love to see Scotland become independant if that's what the people want. I think they'd make it work too! However, I think it would take a very long time before everything is sorted and I worry that the way the world is at the moment, it could leave 'all' of us more vulnerable for some time to come. Actually, I'm quite glad I don't have a vote!

That's one of my concerns too. You know the old saying "united we stand, divided we fall", and for that reason I'm glad I do have a vote.

Anyway I find it extremely amusing that the most recent debates, and heated ones at that, have been between two Englishmen (at least I assume they are) and, as I said before, I find it embarrassing that voices coming out of England, and Bev in NZ, are often more informed and sensible than most of the twaddle coming from those who wish Scotland to become independent. For goodness sake, if the Yes brigade want independence then would they please put forward some reasonable arguments, backed up by hard facts, in support of it!

Also it's time Alex Salmond heeded the words of Abraham Lincoln: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time". It's imperative that the electorate know before the referendum just exactly what independence will entail instead of listening to rhetoric which so far has been full of hot air and no substance.

I, for one, am not coming back to a discussion which is a total waste of time. I don't think you should mention hot air and no substance for fear of it being turned against you which is a distinct possibility. The reason you like Boogers' figures is not because they are correct - noone can guarantee that - but because they agree with your thinking. You are not so open minded as you think as is very evident from your posts. Joe said very little of note and one of two others chipped in with nothing of note so I reduce your English voices to 1 English voice. I agree about BevC. Amen.

I think this thread should close now, as it's going to make some people fall out.

I agree ChrisMac. Not that I'm likely to fall out with anyone because they disagree with me.If they like being wrong that's up to them. See you on another thread. Three word storywas fun the last time I looked. Zarfeen is maybe getting close to a hug from Andy. She's a pet.

See you on another threadI agree ChrisMac. Not that I'm likely to fall out with anyone because they disagree with me.If they like being wrong that's up to them. See you on another thread. Three word storywas fun the last time I looked. Zarfeen is maybe getting close to a hug from Andy. She's a pet.

Aww, that is sweet of you Ilu...but there are some people like Caz who are not letting that happen

The Scottish government has already shown itself to be utterly incompetent in every major project is has undertaken from the ridiculous Parliament building itself to the disastrous Edinburgh trams . Free care for the elderly is nothing of the sort Billions are being poured into new construction of houses and offices which nobody can afford and nobody needs, while existing stock falls into disrepair. Free University fees means paying foreign students take all the places at our Universities. Scotland's greatest success story in recent years - RBS????Businesses in the private sector can't get finance and are going under every day while Alex appoints more and more quangos and advisers at public expense to tell him what to do. Don't worry if you have lost your job, your pension and your children have no future - they can ride bikes like Sir Chris Hoy and all will be well. Only one in four Scottish graduates has a job but Salmond this summer has graced with his magnificent presence the Scottish cup final, the Scottish and British golf opens, Wimbledon, the Olympic Games, the US Open and the Ryder Cup. It's a hard life running Scotland. He thinks parades and presentations are the solution with his face plastered over everything. Why do we need independence? A huge majorityactually didn't vote for devolution but the massive vanity and expense of it was foisted on us anyway. England and Scotland have been one nation since 1603, We are not oppressed in any way shape or form, we are subsidised by our generous neighbours who are understandably hurt by the move for separation. The very last thing this shrinking world needs is rabid nationalism , tartan flag waving etc etc. and more meddling politicians. The very fact he is holdng the vote on the anniversary of Bannockburn should tell the world what a nazi Alex Salmond is. We should all be very afraid. England should prepare for a mass influx of Scots in 2014 when the bankrupt state controlled horror of an SNP independent Scotland is revealed.

The Scottish government has already shown itself to be utterly incompetent in every major project is has undertaken from the ridiculous Parliament building itself to the disastrous Edinburgh trams . Free care for the elderly is nothing of the sort Billions are being poured into new construction of houses and offices which nobody can afford and nobody needs, while existing stock falls into disrepair. Free University fees means paying foreign students take all the places at our Universities. Scotland's greatest success story in recent years - RBS????Businesses in the private sector can't get finance and are going under every day while Alex appoints more and more quangos and advisers at public expense to tell him what to do. Don't worry if you have lost your job, your pension and your children have no future - they can ride bikes like Sir Chris Hoy and all will be well. Only one in four Scottish graduates has a job but Salmond this summer has graced with his magnificent presence the Scottish cup final, the Scottish and British golf opens, Wimbledon, the Olympic Games, the US Open and the Ryder Cup. It's a hard life running Scotland. He thinks parades and presentations are the solution with his face plastered over everything. Why do we need independence? A huge majority actually didn't vote for devolution but the massive vanity and expense of it was foisted on us anyway. England and Scotland have been one nation since 1603, We are not oppressed in any way shape or form, we are subsidised by our generous neighbours who are understandably hurt by the move for separation. The very last thing this shrinking world needs is rabid nationalism , tartan flag waving etc etc. and more meddling politicians. The very fact he is holdng the vote on the anniversary of Bannockburn should tell the world what a nazi Alex Salmond is. We should all be very afraid. England should prepare for a mass influx of Scots in 2014 when the bankrupt state controlled horror of an SNP independent Scotland is revealed.

Apart from the fact that I've already told you the SNP had nothing to do with the parliament building (which was largely Donald Dewar's doing) or the trams (which they never wanted in the first place), I do agree with that part of your post, although I certainly would never call Salmond a Nazi! A devious manipulator, yes. The effects of independence too won't be felt for some time - years in fact - because it's going to take that long for all the issues to be sorted out, some of them very complex, before an independent Scotland would be up and running. Also, to add to what you say about the 1603 regal union, Scotland already enjoys a fair degree of independence. We have our own church, legal and education systems, all of which were enshrined in the 1707 Treat of Union. Scotland an oppressed nation? I don't think so. By the way, if polls are to be believed, 28% of our 'generous neighbours' would be delighted to get the leech which they perceive Scotland to be off their backs.