Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

1A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No. They certainly had reason to be ashamed of the 2genocidal use of the buildings, but I mean crematoria, 3there is no -- you see, the date is 5th May 1943. By that 4time, these buildings have all been committed to genocidal 5use. I presume and I am speculating now, and I do not 6know if you are interested in my speculation, my Lord. 7MR IRVING: Try us. 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
OK, my speculation will be the following: that 9"Vorsontercommander" for inmates before these buildings 10had been brought into operation. There would have been 11little reason for them at that moment necessarily to want 12to steal these plans. We know that the camp resistance 13actually stole a set of these plans in 1944. There was a 14Czech woman, who was able -- ultimately working in the 15Bauleitung. She stole the set of plans in order to warn 16the outside world. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which crematorium are we talking about? 18A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Crematorium 2 and I think crematorium 4. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Of the factory -- 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
A set of plans, which are smuggled outside of the camp. 21There is eyewitness testimony about that, about 22everything. So my speculation would be -- and it is not 23more than speculation -- that once these buildings had 24been committed to genocidal use somebody must have said 25"we must prevent any information of these buildings 26getting to the outside world. We want these plans to be

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1under lock and key". 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
-- can I interrupt you at this point and say, was the 3genocide of the Jews or of the other minorities being 4liquidated by the Nazis in some way a contribution to 5German's war economy? I am putting it in your language, 6it was just part of the Nazi programme, or was it a 7fundamental contribution to the German war economy? My 8Lord, you will appreciate why I am asking the question. It 9is from the document. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think so. I am just wondering in what 11sense the contribution, you mean mouths to feed, something 12like that? 13MR IRVING: I am reading the words from the document, my Lord, 14that is before us. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
Certainly, many trains with valuables of the deportees 16which had been -- we gathered in Canada one -- and then 17later in Canada two also were sent back to the Reich. 18I do not think -- and, of course, we know from Operation 19Reinhardt that an incredible amount of loot was 20ultimately -- 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Precisely. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
-- sent back -- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I draw your attention to the first sentence of the 24third paragraph: "furthermore, it must be pointed out we 25are concerned here with works that are connected with the 26war economy and to be kept secret"; the genocide was not

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1connected with the war economy, but the looting of the 2corpses was, was it not? 3A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
-- it was not the looting of the corpses, because the 4looting of the corpses themselves was almost 5insignificant; what was important, ultimately, was when 6people were taken off the trains their luggage remained in 7the trains. Now ultimately that luggage, that stuff, was 8the important stuff which was being transferred to Canada 9No. 1. It was the vast bulk of the stuff. Not the stuff 10which was actually found on the corpses. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you not rely on the witness, Dr Bendel, as an 12eyewitness? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
No, no, this is -- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you answer my question, please. 15A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
-- no, I am not. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have not relied -- 17A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
For this particular statement? 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
-- no. You will understand the reason why I ask this 19question: have you relied on the witness, Dr Bendel? 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
In my book Bendel is only mentioned one, with a 21description of bunker No. 2. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that Dr Bendel has testified under oath that 23the Nazis extracted 17 tonnes of gold in teeth from their 24victims? Whatever you make of that figure, would that not 25be a contribution to the war economy? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: What happened to it?

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1MR IRVING: My Lord, I respectfully submit that is not material 2to this issue, the whole point is we are trying to work 3out what the Germans were ashamed of and what they did not 4want the outside world to know. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well -- 6MR IRVING: And if it is something that is a contribution -- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure I agree with that; was it 8still there when the Russians arrived? 9MR IRVING: No, of course, not, my Lord. Whatever the quantity 10was, it went initially to the SS, as part of operation 11Reinhardt, and we will be introducing the documents to 12substantiate that along with all the other pathetic, 13personal effects of the victims; the watches, the fountain 14pens the spectacles. Everything else was recycled and 15turned into a mass cash spinning operation by Heinreich 16Himmler. The gold was a major part of it. Hence that room 17set aside which you, yourself, showed us drawn on the maps 18that they want to keep secret, showing a gold working room 19with the smelting furnace in the corner. 20A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
If this is a question, my Lord, I am happy to answer. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it is a question. 22A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I think that given the amount of investment being done in 23building the crematoria and the labour being expended and 24money being expended and especially the material in the 25war, in a war economy and a possible yield of that in 26terms of dental gold, I think that the Germans were, to

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1say the least, not very smart in economic sense. 2MR IRVING: I have only one final question on this document 3then; in that case, Professor, will you please tell the 4court what were the jobs connected with the war economy 5which had to be kept secret which were connected with the 6crematorium then? If it was not the genocide and it was 7not the gold? 8A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
I mean the question of course we have to face here is, if 9he means -- if they mean literally war economy. If they 10mean literally war economy, in 1943 the SS wanted -- they 11were building a plant right next to Auschwitz No. 1. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
That was not in the crematorium, was it? 13A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
That was not in the crematorium. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
This paragraph is purely concerned with the plans of the 15crematorium, which they are trying to keep away from 16prying eyes for some reason which they indicate, in my 17submission, by the use of words "vital to the war economy" 18or "important to the war economy". My Lord, I have no 19further questions on this document. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: The only question I was going to ask you, 21I think you may in a way have answered; it is the dating 22of it is slightly odd, is it not, in a way if this sort of 23instruction is going to go out, you rather expect it to go 24out when they are deciding they are going to convert 25crematorium No. 2 to genocidal use? 26A.
[Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]