it's time to get above ourselves

Brexaggedon

In between JK’s howling hissy-fit and the werewolf scare, things have been getting a little weird as summer wanes and autumn calls. But none weirder than the clueless rudderless ship that is currently the Good Ship May. Having taken control of the post of Prime Minister the good lady seems all at sea with a Cabinet full of feuding suits jostling for position. The thirty-year running Conservative Euro Feud has simply been transferred into the Cabinet, resolving nothing. We’re told that after the Chevering meeting Brexit Secretary David Davis emerged victorious over the Chancellor Philip Hammond in a crucial debate by persuading his colleagues that Brexit would mean a reduction in immigration.

“…in ministerial offices, where turf wars have rapidly broken out, advocates of the withdrawal have discovered that four decades of European integration have left Britain so deeply embedded in the 28-nation bloc that there is no easy escape route. British officials currently have neither the expertise nor the staff for the tortuous exit negotiations, which are likely to last at least three years and possibly much longer. Some analysts have even said they might take a decade. But perhaps what they lack most of all is a game plan. At the moment, they haven’t got a clue,” said Charles Grant, director of the Center for European Reform, a London-based research institute. “It is such a difficult challenge with such disparate leaders at the top of government, with such different views, that they are trying to work out how to respond.”

Senseless wishful thinking that ‘Brexit won’t really happen’ have been popping up everywhere as disbelief is replaced with denial.

Scotland of course, despite weeks of bluster and spin from Theresa May, are to have no formal say over terms of #Brexit & parliament is to have no vote. That was always a lie.

It’s astonishing that we have been dragged into this fiasco and now, two months on are still clueless. It’s hard not to disagree with Nicola Sturgeon that the Tories should simply “be ashamed” by the situation:

But rather than the comforting painless gradual withdrawal over years depicted by some, or the fantasy of this simply not happening, depicted by Blair and others, far more likely is a “hard” Brexit. This has twin drivers, the emboldened right of the Tory party – and the sickened and exhausted key players in the EU keen to lance the boil and avoid contagion

As observer Ciarán McGonagle has put it: “As the United Kingdom continues to drift interminably toward its decision on Article 50, a growing number of Leave campaigners have become steadily more vocal in their demand for a “hard” Brexit, commonly understood to mean an immediate repeal of the European Communities Act and, with it, the loss of membership of the Single Market.”

He warns (‘The Politics of Equivalence’): “The UK is therefore faced with an interesting dilemma. If political considerations dictate that membership of the Single Market is no longer viable, the UK will be required, not only to maintain its existing regulatory framework in the hope that a determination on equivalence is reached promptly (despite the obvious commercial disincentive for the EU not to do so), but to also ensure that it evolves and develops in line with EU regulation for the foreseeable future, putting paid to any notion that a more liberal, light-touch system of financial regulation could be adopted in the UK as a way of enticing foreign firms to maintain their London bases.

Any failure to maintain existing membership of the Single Market will inevitably present an existential crisis for London’s financial services industry. It is difficult to conceive how a London outside the EEA, any more than New York or Singapore, could hope to act as the gateway of choice in future for third-country firms seeking access to EU-based investors and consumers.”

This is just one aspect of the complex emerging picture. These people are fighting battles to do with short-term political gain whilst gambling their country’s future. The battle raging in the Anglo-British elite is similar to the culture wars raging in America. They will ‘win’ a populist war to ‘stem the flow’ of immigration but at a financial cost for their moneymen and hedge-fund backers. Who will triumph – the visceral xenophobes or the finance capitalists? It’s unclear yet but neither is remotely about ‘taking back control’.

That’s what Bella Caledonia is all about.

But we need your support to move forward…

63 Comments

bringiton
2 years ago

The EU project was always about so much more than the single market which was conceived as a means of creating political cohesion between the disparate nations of Europe.
In that regard,I imagine,the EU will do all it can to accommodate the clear wishes of the majority of Scots to remain within that political union.
The SG needs to drive the agenda by getting agreed terms from the EU and then demanding that Westminster provide the same certainty for Scotland remaining in their political union.
There is no doubt that the political choice facing Scots is a union with 27 other European states or one with England’s Tories.
England’s Tories have forced this choice on Scotland,it is not one of our making.

Robert Graham
2 years ago

As much as i agree with your comments i think you will find the EU cannot and will not negotiate with the Scottish Government as usual all contact will be via Westminster and the chances of that will be NIL , we won’t have any input or any say on what is going to happen , and the media will make sure people in Scotland remain in the dark and fed shit as usual .
How do you wake a Nation up ? f/kd if i know and i have been trying for years with some people it’s like having a conversation with a brick .

Willie
2 years ago

You can just about sense the hatred for foreigners from the Brexiteers. The entire debate about aeurope was framed around immigration and England’s belligerent hatred towards the Kraut, the Frogs and all of the other nationalities. And wouldn’t a little shooting war with against some dirty foreigner re,store national pride. Well one things for certain, relations with other European states will deteriorate. As one senior Tory politician said about Germany, they forget that we won the war!

Scott Cameron
2 years ago

greatelephantcensus
2 years ago

The people of Scotland are as culpable for “Brexageddon” (as you term it) and its consequences as any other part of the UK.

Only about 40% of people living in Scotland eligible to vote positively affirmed their desire to remain in the EU. 40%. Less than half.

The majority of people eligible to vote in Scotland voted to Leave the EU. 60% of people either affirmed their desire to Leave, or couldn’t be bothered to vote. (If you can’t be bothered to vote, then you accept the choice determined for you by others. This was a UK vote, and the UK voted to leave the EU).

“Scotland” as part of the UK voted to Leave the EU. And now you have to live with that choice.

You were complacent, with a low turnout of 67%, lower than the UK turnout of 72%.

All this where a “political revolution” has taken place, where you had “a scintillating conversation with yourself” where the most “engaged, informed, enlightened, empowered voters” now reside.

Scotland is leaving the EU (with the UK) because of its peoples own failings and shortcomings. You have no-one to blame but yourselves.

Why not take a hard look at yourselves, and try to confront the reasons for your own self-made problems?

But why do that? When it is much easier and more comforting to Whinge, seek to externalise blame and look for someone else to scapegoat for your own failings, and their consequences.

All of this is a direct consequence of your own individual and collective complacency, incompetence, ignorance, shortcomings, failings and inadequacies.

And for your next trick, after being complicit in this calamity, should this website be believed, you are going to facilitate the erection of a hard border between yourselves and your most important market, where most of your stuff is exported to – England.

greatelephantcensus
2 years ago

No, only 2/3 of the people of Scotland spoke. The rest couldn’t be bothered to drag themselves to the polling station to vote.

“each and every one of Scotland 32 regions vote to remain”

So? Completely irrelevant. It wasn’t a regional / sub regional vote. It was a UK vote. In Scotland, only 40% bothered to say they wanted to say. Your leaving is your fault.

the remain vote was 14 % above the leave vote.

Is 14% the ‘overwhelming vote to remain’ – ? I am supposed to be impressed by that?

“That’s democracy, but it’s obvious you do not understand or respect democracy.”

No, YOU don’t understand democracy. If you understood democracy, you’d realise that Scotland leaving the EU as part of the UK is entirely your fault and responsibility, from 2014 onwards. Should you wish to learn anything, have a look at the purpose of referendums in other European states, and how they are used (ratification of National Unity, not used as elections / tyranny of the majority)

“All along it was a done deal how Scotland was going to vote”

Pardon? So, it was a fix before you even started? There is no limit to your paranoia and persecution complex.

” and a done deal we have no ability to influence uk votes.”

Yes you do. If you hadn’t been so complacent, you could have contributed to delivering, or even delivered the 650,000 votes required to tip the balance to remain. If you’d have had the same turnout as in your 2014 referendum, things might have been different. But 2/3s stayed at home, and you are where you are.

“You need to remove face from the butt cheeks of your colonial over lords, then you might see what is going on round about you, ”

JOYOUS CIVIC NATIONALISM!!!

but I get the impression you are comfortable where you are!

I am thanks, I am comfortably well off. New car delivered next week, two weeks holiday in Italy the week after. Looking forward to it.

Mac
2 years ago

According to Bigdumbo 2/3 of the people of Scotland managed to drag themselves to a polling booth while another 2/3 couldn’t be bothered and stayed at home. Maybe Bigdumbo had to be dragged from his new car after spending too long at the pub, maybe Bigdumbo should have stayed at home.

Broadbield
2 years ago

Thank you for that penetrating critique of the Scottish id. However, you might like to have a wee read at today’s Wings devastating analysis (based on economists’ research) of how the oil revenues were wasted by successive UK governments (and even if we leave aside the argument the SNP had been making for a Scottish Oil Fund since the 70’s) by transferring wealth upwards to the rich and is partly responsible for the dreadful state of the UK economy (see DebtClocks.eu).

Josef O Luain
2 years ago

Robert Graham
2 years ago

I wouldnt bother with facts on these people , these type of comments have been increasing in number recently , all follow the same line ,thin on facts or fair comment but thick on abuse and bile looking for a reaction and meant to disrupt any comments on any subject that is being debated , a scatter gun approach to try and split all independence supporters , I believe they think we are all stupid and gullible ,most of us have learned lessons from 2014 they pouring out the same guff clearly have not and are happy to follow the same script , after all it worked the last time didn’t it ?

Robert Graham
2 years ago

Many thanks for letting us Jocks know we are shit , always have been shit. always will be shit , of all the Nations on the Planet we are the only one incapable of running our own country , and we are a country not an extention of England not a region of England just in case you haven’t noticed or choose to ignore .
Your comment along with an ever growing number that have recently appeared on all independence supporting sites looks like an coordinated attack by the people who we never see who stay in the shadows yet ultimately run this country namely the security services on behalf of the establishment , do we really scare these people that much , that we warrant such close attention ? .

greatelephantcensus
2 years ago

“Your comment along with an ever growing number that have recently appeared on all independence supporting sites looks like an coordinated attack by the people who we never see who stay in the shadows”

I am going to go to the pub tonight and tell / show people that some Separatist Nutcase genuinely believes I work for Mi5 because I pointed out some inconvenient truths.

cmb
2 years ago

You are a curious fellow indeed. Does winding up people of a different political persuasion to your esteemed self satisfy a deep-seated need? I was interested to read your offerings but unfortunately had to give up after it became clear I was not learning anything I had not heard before, mainly from members of UKIP. Tell me, do you like elephants?

Donnie MacCall
2 years ago

Scotland speaks decisively and England is split down the middle, and some how it’s Scotland fault?

The uk ruins Scotland’s economy and banks whilst on their watch, some how we’d fair a lot worse if we were to manage our own affairs according to you.

Scotland releases Al Megrahi on compassionate grounds due to cancer for all the world to see, in the background the uk was trying to get him released on business and economic grounds, and guess what Scotland is portrayed as the sly villain.

We elect a government in this country to protect us from a government that sits in another country we did not elect, but who still governs us, I can think of no other nation who would put up with that nonsense.

Lastly all those nasty people saying nasty things to you, but what they are saying is true. I’d ask what other country in the world have you seen the colonial power being overthrown with out one shot fired, not even Gandhi managed that!

Scott Cameron
2 years ago

Nail on head.
How very dare us, as mere sub-tenants on someone else’s island, have the audacity, nae the impudence, to want to have some say as to how things are done around here. Not until we 5 millions get jobs, pay taxes and make some financial contribution to UK plc, instead of depending on handouts, should we be worthy of associate membership. Then , and only then, shall our MPs be considered worthy of eligibility, providing they represent preapproved parties and are elected by unspecified margins at WM’s discretion.

Monty
2 years ago

EU referendum felt like it did not take place in Scotland. None of the Scottish parties really engaged bar appearing on tv debates and that seemed to be more about personal status and profile rather than the issues. No one seemed to take it really seriously until after the vote. It was portrayed as an internal Tory party dispute of no importance to Scots. Scottish voters understandably after a referendum, general election and Scottish elections had tired of the ballot box. It was almost like we had become too inward looking and as as this was not directly about us the parties did not engage. Except of course it was and when the result was not as expected the SNP suddenly woke up and the Scottish Tories had nothing to say. This was a failure of engagement, imagination and leadership across the Scottish political spectrum and as a nation we did not emerge well

Graeme Purves
2 years ago

There is no reason why there should be a hard border between England and an independent Scotland in the EU. This is what the Brexit Secretary, David Davis, said on Thursday about the border in Ireland:

“We are clear we do not want a hard border – no return to the past – and no unnecessary barriers to trade. What we will do is deliver a practical solution that will work in everyone’s interests, and I look forward to opening the conversation about how that should operate with my colleagues today.”

Thrawn
2 years ago

Scotland voted convincingly to remain in the UK and therfore whether we like it or not (and personally I very much do not like it) we have to abide by the result of the Brexit referendum.

Yes the result of independence referendum was not explictly for a Scotland in a UK outside of the EU but if you believe that makes it invalid then logically you have to accept the inverse would have been invalid as well. If Scotland had voted for independance it would not have been for a Scotland in the EU but with a rUK outside imposing trade tariffs and border controls. Would the SNP have accepted to re-run the referendum in that case…

Also the argument that because one area of a country didn’t vote the same as the rest means somehow their democratic will has been subverted, misunderstands how democracy works. Are the SNP saying that if again they had somehow won the indyref but the Borders or Shetland voted overwhelmingly unionist they would have the right to either veto the result or ignore it and remain in rUK. In a democracy you have to accept that you don’t always get what you want… however one of the more corrosive features of Nationalism is that it says you don’t have to accept it because the “others” are to blame

Donnie MacCall
2 years ago

It’s called politics and events, the uk establishment has, does and will use any exploitative means to keep Scotland in its sweaty paw.

Our leaders should reciprocate with interest!

The uk is not a country in the sense of France or Belgium, the uk is a state made up of various countries! Therefore there is a natural and established border on which to separate.

As for corrosive nationalism, strange why you would raise this in reference to Scotland at al, but especially in-light of the xenophobic events in England post their brexit vote. I would question your logic!

Thrawn
2 years ago

Belgium…brilliant example…basically two countries (Flemish and Francophone Walloons) locked in a federal structure designed to balance their competing claims…

Also the border you claim to be so established…was only established definitively because of the Union of the Crowns…up to that point the border was fluid and if the Borders regions decide now they feel more British than Scottish they could point to 100’s of years of history to back that up

And my comment about Nationalism wasn’t directed solely at Scottish nationalists…the same can be seen in all nationalists be they UKIP or Trumpian or Front Nationale. You might clutch your pearls in horror at such a comparison but their basic outlook is the same as that of SNP…nation first

Maria F
2 years ago

“Scotland voted convincingly to remain in the UK and therfore whether we like it or not (and personally I very much do not like it) we have to abide by the result of the Brexit referendum”

Why?

Scotland is not a region of England – no matter how much you may want everybody in it to feel like it is – therefore it doesn’t HAVE to obey what England says.

Besides, it may be interesting for you to note, if you haven’t realised of that yet that a 55% of those voting in the Independence referendum voted to remain in an Union that doesn’t longer exist.

Actually, it never existed because the promises made by the Better Together have been broken one by one.

The foundations of the Better together were the mantra ‘the only way to ensure that Scotland will remain in the EU is if we vote NO’, the economic and social security, national security, more voice for Scotland and then the promises of frigates to be built in Scotland, HMRC jobs to be kept, and a vow that deflated before it even started. Certain big wig from the Labour party make suggestions that we were going to be the most devolved country in the world? Well, Thrawn, are we? To what time frame dimension did all those promises and the devo max vanished to?

So if the better together are not dragging all those big wigs who made the promises out of their caves and forcing them to deliver their part of the agreement, why on earth the 45% that voted for independence have ‘to accept the result’?

And whose result? Because the result I see is that we were promised what could not be delivered and therefore we are talking about a breach of agreement here. As far as I can see a breach of agreement is a broken agreement. In fact, if we were talking business here those making the promises would be sued for all what they are worth for fraud.

So no, we don’t ‘have’ to accept anything

On the other hand, what is the UK Thrawn? It is a union of 4 countries. You may like to have another close look at the results of the EU referendum: only 2 countries voted to leave, the other 2 voted to remain in the EU.

Why on earth two of the 4 countries have to subject themselves to the opinion of the other 2? Or are you saying that the opinion of those living in one of the countries is more valuable than the rest?

Scotland and NI are not regions or colonies of England. They are countries in their own right, with their own people and their own economic and social interests, therefore ‘they do not HAVE to abide’ by what England has decided. What is good for England is not necessarily good for everybody else. It is up to the people of Scotland to make up their mind and decide what they value the most and if they chose to be treated like a colony by England – and an elite that you seem to be quite happy to oblige – and being dragged around like a lion on a cage or being treated as an independent country by the 27 other countries of the EU.

We have been fooled once by the unscrupulous elite looking to serve their own vested interests. We should wake up and not be fooled again.

Kenny Smith
2 years ago

Totally agree with your sentiments here, these trolls like to keep banging on about inconvenient truths and tell us to get back in the box but they know there is nothing than can stop the inevitable split in the UK. Only one point though and I may sound pedantic but technically Wales and N.I are only provinces of England not countries. There was only 2 signatories to the treaty of Union and that was the kingdoms of Scotland and England and Ireland as one. Scotland was the only country not taken by force which in itself was a minor miracle. They threw us 3 sweetners to sign the deal, to keep our own legal system, our own distinct educational system and control over our own church/faith so no Scots would bend the knee to the arch bishop of Canterbury. They have treated us like a province for so long people forget that we are one of the oldest sovereign nations in the world. Indy ref 2 is a cert to come, not a cert to win but at least this time it will be a more even square go. EU nationals could be the difference. If only Scots born were able to vote last time we would have won. Hard work starts now but starting from 45 % is better than last time and I know loads of people who will never vote no again and the arseholes above don’t realise how counter productive they are with their sit down, shut up attitude. Soar Alba

Graeme Purves
2 years ago

Boris made all of this clear in his interview on ‘Countryfile’ back in the Spring. Asked how Brexit would benefit farmers, he said that that it would free them from all that EU red tape and bureaucracy. “But might that result in the loss of European markets?”, he was asked. “Not if they comply with the regulations.” he chirruped.

Cairnallochy
2 years ago

The logic of the tariff barrier threat rather escapes me. If David Davis is adamant that the UK wants tariff free access to the single market, then an independent Scotland remaining part of the EU would share that access to rUK.

There have already been numerous comments from EU leaders that the UK cannot pick and choose elements of the EU which suit it. It seems equally unlikely that a future rUK will get to pick and choose the countries with which it will have tariff free trade.

Thrawn
2 years ago

The problem with Brexit and the reason i voted against it, is that we won’t get tariff-free access unless the EU grant it to us…

Also if they do give us tariff-free access (which would also by extension would mean free movement of peoples) it rather defeats the point of claiming Scotland needs a second independence referendum…if nothing changes in terms of UK/EU trade, borders and intra-european immigration what is the negative effect on Scotland?

bringiton
2 years ago

Becoming very noticeable on a number of blogs how agitated the Britnats are becoming……demanding no indeyref2 etc etc.
They must know something we don’t.
Perhaps it is just the fear of being left alone to fend for themselves?

Broadbield
2 years ago

Maria F
2 years ago

“Why don’t you have ‘indyref2′ tomorrow?”

Because there is a much better time to have indiref2: a few days after Ms May pulls the trigger on Article 50 and the economy takes a tumble.

You see, greatelephantcensus, there is nothing more convincing that what hits your pocket.
It will be after article 50 gets triggered when we will start to experience the real consequences of the casino politics of David Cameron and the Tories’ imaginary “long term economic plan”.

You see I am sure there was a very good reason why Cameron ‘the brave’ couldn’t waste a nanosecond in running after throwing the bombshell of Brexit onto everybody else. And this is the man who claimed that he would be leading the exit campaign if the big wigs in EU didn’t concede to his ‘demands’. Yeah, right!

And well, what about all those political celebrities in the Exit campaign? the speed of light doesn’t even compare to that of those individuals disappearing from the scene. Why?

Of course it will be also at the time of triggering article 50 when all the lies and nonsense peddled by the Better Together campaign will erupt like a volcano.

That will be the time when we will witness how the credibility of the Labour big wigs making those vacuous promises during indiref1 crumbles to pieces. Particularly when a good percentage of that 55% finally wakes up to the fact that the mantra ‘the only way to ensure that Scotland remains in the EU is by voting NO’ was actually a big fat lie.

By the way, Ms Davidson was very vocal in the TV debates before the EU referendum. I was particularly impressed by her performance against Mr Boris Johnson: she sounded convinced and convincing. All that fiery energy defending our remaining in the EU was nothing short of impressive.

But, what has happened to her? She seems to have completely deflated ever since. I mean, where is all that feisty energy and fury defending the EU gone? She now wants us to abandon the idea of the EU completely to remain in the UK. What is all that about? How can you change your tune so quickly and remain truthful to those who you were trying to convince to vote remain in the EU? I mean, was she lying then when she was trying to convince everybody to vote to remain on the EU or is she lying now by saying that it is ‘better for Scotland to leave the EU after all’?

So, who do you think is the priority in her head: her fellow Scots, her incompetent party colleagues at Westminster, or rather something in the lines of ‘stuff everything else, my career is the only thing that counts’?

Disgruntled European
2 years ago

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

The more I think about it mibees the best thing is to call the referendum now.
Let’s get it over and bury the independence thing once and for all.
Will Wee Jimmy be krankie enough to call it?
Don’t think so!
She knows she would lose.
It is only the kranks on here that think a victory would be possible despite the polls and the economic disaster that the Natsies have created.
Call it now!

Robert Graham
2 years ago

We heard all your intelligent thoughtful type of comments during 2014 they were shite then and haven’t improved with age , while you are probably sitting holding hands with the other arshole i cant be bothered looking for his stupid disguised name who was spouting pish earlier do you take it in turns or are you the same arsehole just asking petal .

Graeme Purves
2 years ago

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

Well now, at this critical time, as you put it, saving the union is not really the problem.
There just don’t seem to be enough of you Indy types to carry the vote.
Only a krankpot would fly in the face of the will of the people of Scotland.
The same people who voted in 2014 and who the polls suggest have not changed their minds.
So will it be faint heart or brave heart.
I think I know.
Don’t you?

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

So who makes up the 54% who want to remain in the UK at the moment?
The polls consistently show the hardened percentage which is almost as the referendum.
Is your theory that the pollsters are wrong or are biased?
Do you really think that wee Nicola taxing people more in Scotland than elsewhere in the UK will be a vote winner?
When the higher rate tax differential kicks in the transient vote of working aspirational scots who are affected will look around and start to find alternatives just as they did 9 years ago.
This will gradually become the downfall of the SNP as will their chaotic handling or public services and local authority finance.
In places like Glasgow this transient vote will show up quite quickly when the city council are starved of cash and the social services start failing. The hard left who jumped to the SNP will leave toot suite.
Mibees Govanhill will then go for independence with all it’s hard working, adequately housed population of people who have enjoyed freedom of movement.
Yes I mean the families who have come here with very large families who cannot read or write in their own language never mind English who would like to work but instead live on benefits.
Or where they can find work are being exploited at £3/hour cash in hand no tax or NI paid.
While they are also claiming their benefits.
Sorry the SNP have peaked and are on the way down unless a radical change of outlook arrives in their policies.
They might remain in government but will be without an overall majority and independence will be put to bed for a lifetime.
And the people who work hard will continue to be paying too much tax and NI and also will be expected to fund an deficit which prevents EU membership.
The whole ethos is full of contradiction and completely unworkable.
On that basis it is doomed to fail.
People aren’t stupid.

Sorry but

Graeme Purves
2 years ago

The 54% are simply voters who have still to be convinced of the merits of independence. More of them will be as the second campaign gathers momentum and the promises of the Brexiteers turn to dust. But you already know that, Thomas. That’s why you are in such a tizz.

Steven Milne
2 years ago

The separatists will never achieve their goals in my lifetime but they will continue to make Scotland a progressively worse place to live with their constant grievance mongering.

Maria F
2 years ago

“The more I think about it mibees the best thing is to call the referendum now.”

For the ‘Better Togetherness’ your are desperate to protect Thomas, absolutely!

If Indiref2 were to be called now, when the craze of the EU result has worn a bit and right before the [email protected] starts to hit the fan when the Brexit process actually starts is indeed the best time, probably the only time actually, when those big wigs with their vacuous promises and lies and Ms Davidson’s flip flop stance on the EU (now we should be voting remain in the EU, now we should leave the EU) stand any chance of success of fooling the masses again in favour of the elite.

Now, if you are talking about what is best for Scotland and the people living in Scotland Thomas, then I would say, where is the rush Thomas? As Aristotle would say: ” Patient is bitter but its fruit is sweet”.

No, Thomas, if there is a time to call indiref2 is precisely a few days after Ms May triggers Article 50 and the real consequences of England+Wales’ decision to exit the EU, of the Tories’ Casino politics, the extreme self-servitude of those coupers within the Labour party finally hits home.

When the fear of great economic and social uncertainty can start to be felt, that is the time when many of the 55% will start to see the great deception they were subjected to by the ‘better together’ campaign. That is the time for indiref2 Thomas, not any second sooner.

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

Great economic and social uncertainty is already here visited upon us by none other than the SNP.
As I said to GP the downfall of the SNP is already underway and they know it.
This “big conversation” will die a very quick death as did the previous one and the factions within the SNP will start to split. It is already happening as seen in the EU referendum with the land owning and farming gentry moving away from following the laid down edicts.
29% voted to leave.
If she does not go soon the effect of this split will further undermine the vote as these people will graduate naturally back to their roots.
That’s right to the Tories.
The left win rump that’s left will be vulnerable to the hard left sections getting fed up waiting and start to move back to the more overtly socialist parties where even if the don’t get many seats are seen to be vocally active rather than paralysed in the headlights like wee Jimmy is.
The climate is changing and she knows it s will she have an Eisenhower moment as at D Day or will she bottle it and watch as it all falls apart.
I know where my money is.

Maria F
2 years ago

“Great economic and social uncertainty is already here visited upon us by none other than the SNP”

No Thomas, you may want to believe that crap but you certainly are not going to get me to believe any of that nonsense.

Economic and social uncertainty was brought right to our plates by the wonderfully weak David Cameron and his Casino politics, gambling our EU membership (and some people’s livinghood) to give its party a chance of win the GE. By the way, Thomas, do you know how the investigations about the electoral fraud by the Tory party are going? The press has gone mute on that matter, which is very important, actually.

The casino politics continues, by the look of it, with his successor: were are the plans for Brexit? When is Brexit going to start? Actually, what does Brexit really mean if I may ask? Were are the contingencies to cover all the grants that the EU was providing us with? Are the scientific groups in this country relying in the financial support from the EU going to be funded now by Westminster instead? What about the farmers? What about social activities and buildings, schools, Parks, etc etc? Where is the money going to come from? From the pockets of the figureheads of the Exit campaign? Or rather from Ms Davidson and the Tory MP who are now bent on trying to make us believe, after those convincing speeches to make the Scottish people to vote remain, that, actually, thinking about it, leaving the EU is not what is best for us?

Well then, are Ms Davidson and Mr Mundell going to foot the bill to cover out all those costs? I mean, because if those grants and subsides are not going to be matched by those who are claiming that the best for us is leaving the EU, how can they dare to even suggest that leaving the EU is the best for Scotland?

What about the EU citizens? It is not the SNP who created all the uncertainty for them, that was all the doing of the Tories. In fact, the SNP is the only party who has actually addressed these people and explain to them things as they are, rather than using them as baits, as May and her troopers seem only too happy to do while Davidson and Mundell do nothing at all to stop that uncertainty. What do we want Scottish tory representatives for if they don’t act for the benefit of Scotland?

What about businesses relying in EU trade? Where are the reassurances by the Tories? Where are the reassurances by Davidson and Mundell? Where are all those wonderful plans to keep trade the same?

What about the foreign students and the income they bring? Are Davidson and Mundell going to cover that as well from their pockets?

“As I said to GP the downfall of the SNP is already underway and they know it”
You speak to your GP about politics? Well, that disgusts me Thomas. Wasting Doctors’ time and taxpayers’ money with your nonsense? you should be ashamed of yourself, actually.

“This “big conversation” will die a very quick death as did the previous one”
In the circles where you move and within the newspapers you read, “the big conversation” may have ‘died’. In the circles where I move (I don’t read newspapers), the “big conversation” has actually got significantly bigger. Unless we are talking about a ‘Lazarus effect’, I would even say that it never died off in the first place.

“29% voted to leave”
And 71% voted to remain
Remind me again Thomas, what was the percentage that voted remain and how many voted leave within the Tory ranks?

“That’s right to the Tories”
I think that concept is simply an utopia Thomas that some like you may want to believe it exists so as to feel that they are at the left of something. But I am sorry to say Thomas, from where I am standing the current tories are the far right of the political spectrum.

“The left win rump that’s left will be vulnerable to the hard left sections getting fed up waiting and start to move back to the more overtly socialist parties where even if the don’t get many seats are seen to be vocally active rather than paralysed in the headlights like wee Jimmy is”

“The climate is changing and she knows it”
She knows it Thomas, I know it and everybody including you should know it. And yet, those Tories at westminster abolished the subsides for renewable energies. Can you believe their incompetence? I didn’t see Ms Davidson fighting the cuts either. So, Thomas, if you are looking to put climate change deniers in the spot light, it is not ‘she’ who you have to go after, it is those self-serving tories at westminster that stop the subsides for renewal energies to go ahead or those local scottish tories that did nothing to stop the cuts hurting Scottish economy.

“will she have an Eisenhower moment as at D Day or will she bottle it and watch as it all falls apart”

Sorry, who are you talking about here? You lost me. Are you talking about Britannia? The Saltire? Ms Davidson’s tank?

“I know where my money is”
So do I, for now. But will I know once Ms May triggers article 50? I am not so sure, to be honest. And who is to blame for all this uncertainty Thomas? You can take your pick, but I blame the Better together campaign fair and square, for putting us in this situation. Had Scotland become independent in 2014, even considering the worse scenarios, 24 months would had been enough to join the EU again.

Now, the real question here is are we going to be dragged out of the EU against our will and subjected to unnecessary economic and social hardship and pain out of the EU just because Davidson and Dudgale, in their servitude to their parties in London, insist in denying the democratic right of a referendum so the people of their country, Scotland, can decide what is best for their future?
Are Dugdale and Davidson for or against Scotland? What do you think Thomas?

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

Sorry M F I cannot take you seriously.
Are you really that deluded?
My concern is you are typical of the Natsie side with little or no comprehension of what is actually going on.
You mention the farmers and the EU subsidies.
Astonishingly you fail to mention the SNP waste of £100m on a software scheme to distribute funds to the farmers which does not work.
Go ask the farmers what they think about the SNP.
Pathetic.

Iain Ross
2 years ago

I feel sorry for people like you. You appear on sites like this and just spout half truths and complete nonsense. Instead of engaging with people you fling insults and make comments that insinuate that democratically elected politicians are somehow connected to fascism which is truly disgusting. In the meantime I have a real business that is looking like it is going lose access to crucial eu matched funding and access to the common market which threatens its survival. Still I presume that is somehow a great opportunity, perhaps you would like to explain that to me? I don’t understand it myself but I guess there might be a honourable case for the union, why don’t you try and make it instead of just bumping your gums like some sort of toady just spreading the bile they read in yesterday’s daily mail? Sad but somewhat predictable.

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

Really!
I think you should re read your “contribution” and reflect.
It’s not so long ago the Natsies were called the tartan tories!
Mibees you get yourself better informed.
And as for facts where have you offered anything remotely like one.
The EU is undemocratic, unaccountable and wastes millions of pounds and euros everyday.
Fact the accounts have failed to pass the scrutiny of an audit got every year we have been involved.
We pay much more in than we get back ….fact.
Other countries get much more out than they pay in …fact.
If we did not pay in to the EU the money could be spent at home so companies like yours would have access to at least as much as comes from the EU which as I said we taxpayers have already paid.
Now apart from your non factual and derogatory comments with no relevance or substance do you have anything to contribute.
Or like the rest of the Natsies is it a case of if you don’t agree then you just do the easiest thing and avoid debate by playing the man.

Maria F
2 years ago

Doubting Thomas, you talk about others making derogatory comments but reading the comments back it is you in fact who is insulting others with rather demeaning comments like calling them Natsies in a rather provoking manner.

What is your strategy Thomas? provoking others with petty attacks so they retaliate back and then you have an excuse to cry wolf and play the victim? Well that tactic has been abused a little bit lately by some unscrupulous and coward individuals that really didn’t have anything intelligent or convincing to say and therefore they had to resource to this petty tactic to get some attention. I think you may find that this technique is not longer that effective.

Can I ask what political party you support? It is not the SNP, that we know for your comments, but to be honest, if derogatory comments like the ones you are making are the weapon of choice by the political party you support – possibly because they don’t longer have sensible and rational arguments to use – then we all may as well know who this ‘resourceful’ political party is.

“The EU is undemocratic, unaccountable and wastes millions of pounds and euros everyday”
That is your opinion, Thomas. There was a democratic referendum a couple of months ago for the people to democratically decide if they wanted to leave the EU or not. Turns out that in Scotland, a staggering 62% of those that went to vote, did vote democratically to remain in the EU.

I am sorry but no matter how much crap you throw now at the EU, nothing is going to erase the historic fact that a staggering 62% of the Scottish electorate that voted democratically on the EU referendum did so to remain in the EU.

So, quite frankly, it is rather undemocratic of you now to try and blur that fact as it is rather undemocratic from people like Ms Davidson and Ms Dugdale to attempt to block a democratic referendum for the people of Scotland to decide if they rather leave the Union and remain in the EU or viceversa. Who on earth do they think they are to decide for those 62% that voted to remain in the EU? Who on earth do they think they are attempting to stop the people of Scotland to express their will in how they want their own country run?

You see, you don’t need to look that far as the EU to find undemocratic treatment because the situation we are in where Scotland could be dragged out of the EU against its will and where three political leaders stuck in the past are determined at all cost to silence this country’s voice by removing their democratic right of deciding how to run their country, when it is their beloved Union who has changed the circumstances and not Scotland, is indeed undemocratic.

Also, it is only in an undemocratic situation that Scotland can get lumbered with the jolly of housing and contributing to the cost of WMDs in its own waters and near to its cities endangering its population when a staggering 98% of Scotlands MPs (representing the people of Scotland) voted against those weapons renewal and before that, the Scottish Parliament itself had voted against Trident renewal. If only Ms Dugdale and Ms Davidson shouted as loud against this injustice as they do against the referendum! If there is somewhere where the voice of an entire country gets completely silenced by other Thomas, this is it. You cannot get any more undemocratic than this.

“If we did not pay in to the EU the money could be spent at home so companies like yours would have access to at least as much as comes from the EU which as I said we taxpayers have already paid”
I am sorry Thomas but while this sounds wonderful it is totally unrealistic and you know this very well. Your comment above brings a deja vu with the mantra of the 350m pounds that Farage and the Leavers who where going to put back in the NHS per week. This is not like the miracle of the bread and the fish, Thomas. Those 350m pounds a week were already allocated to the NHS by your fellow leavers, so where are you going to get the rest of the money from? Besides, if we don’t pay access to the single market you will find that there will be a considerable decrease in the amount the taxman can collect and many less businesses and employees contributing. And where are you going to get the billion of euros that the EU invests in scientific research in the UK? Come down to reality Thomas, it is high times you did.

“Or like the rest of the Natsies is it a case of if you don’t agree then you just do the easiest thing and avoid debate by playing the man”
Lead by example Thomas, because for what I can see it is actually you who is making their way out of any kind of sensible debate by the back door using insults and ‘playing the victim’

Steven Milne
2 years ago

Maria F
2 years ago

Steven Milne

Doubting Thomas arguments – I wouldn’t go as far as calling them logical – will not cut ice with anyone that requires a bit more than insults and soundbites to be convinced and has their eyes open to what is currently going on.

You see Steven, it is not only those pursuing independence for Scotland that have become aware of the injustice of being lumbered with Trident and its costs when only one Scottish MP, Tory of course, voted for its renewal showing his uttermost disregard for the decision of majority of the Scottish Parliament representing the people of Scotland. Many of my NO voting friends were disgusted by that. It is not only those supporting independence who are realising that for Tories the HQ of their party in England and their wealthy generous donors are far more important than the welfare and future of their fellow Scots. I don’t see any conspiracy on this, just incompetence and self-servitude.

It is not only those pursuing independence that have noticed that, while only one Tory MP has been elected by the Scottish people to represent them in Westminster, Scotland has been lumbered with a Tory government they didn’t chose or want. This is a reflection of the democratic deficit that Scotland is being subjected to within the Union and the little effort that the Union and its supporters are making to change this. I don’t see this as a conspiracy Steven, but more like a completely lack of interest by the unionist parties to bother with the inconvenience and hope that it will simply go away at the next election.

It is not only those pursuing independence that have noticed that while most Scottish MPs at Westminster voted against airstrikes in Syria, the voice of the representatives of the Scottish people at Westminster gets ignored and dragged into a military conflict they don’t want. Again, another reflection of the democratic deficit and the complete lack of interest and regard for serving and respecting the interests and views of those in Scotland.

It is not only those pursuing independence who have noticed that the Tory policies at Westminster are hurting Scotland’s economy: GERS is a clear proof of this. Scotland has not got full financial autonomy so the responsibility for all that deficit shown in GERS can be put fairly and squarely on the inefficient and unsuitable policies followed by a Tory government Scotland did not chose to run Scotland’s economy. Again Steven, not a case of conspiracy but more a case of gross incompetence by the Tories, which were not chosen by the Scottish people to represent them, and yet made a boo-boo of running the Scottish economy.

Following with Tories hurting Scotland’s economy, what about the cut in the subsides to renewable energies? It is not only those pursuing independence who are aware of the potential of Scotland producing renewable energies and the boost that this can be for the Scottish economy. You don’t have to be Einstein to realise that cutting those subsides was going to affect Scotland badly. Rather than conspiracy, I would say again incompetence by the Tories and complete lack of regard for the Scottish people and their livinghood. By the way, I didn’t see Ruth Davidson or the Scottish Tory MP ridding the tank and shouting against this injustice, did you? Do you think it is because they don’t really care what happens to Scotland and the people living in Scotland? If only these two people shouted against what her colleagues at Westminster do to hurt Scotland as loud as when they shout against another Scottish referendum or against the SNP! Would I say that Ruth and the Tory MP are part of a conspiracy? Of course not, they are simply puppets serving the interest of their party in England HQ and hope to get a recognition for that.

Last June there was a EU referendum where a 62% of those voting in Scotland did so to remain in the EU. During the campaign for that referendum, Ruth Davidson was nothing short of impressive in her pursue of a vote for Remain. Praise where it is due, she deservedly cast a big shadow on most of her party big wigs in Westminster. She succeeded together with the other political leaders that fought for Remain in Scotland. A 62% supporting remain is one of the highest supports for the EU of current times. So how on earth this lady now expects everybody that followed her advice to ignore the result, ignore her energetic pleas for a remain vote and ignore all those reasons she gave why a leave vote would hurt Scotland’s economy and resign to the fact that because England chose to leave and England is the most populated country in the UK we must not offer resistance to being dragged out of the EU against our will? Again Steven, conspiracy? No, purely and simply brass self-interest and complete disregard for the Scottish citizens, her fellow countrymen and women’s interests.

I believe it was the Tories’ decision to reduce the number of ‘promised frigates’ from 13 to 8 and now to none, wasn’t it? Was this a conspiracy? No, I don’t think so. I think it is just disregard for the people of Scotland and those who voted NO because they were promised the frigates to be built in Scotland.

I believe it was Mr Cameron who brought the issue of EVEL in the aftermath of the Scottish referendum, when we were promised that Scotland would have a strong voice at Westminster if it voted NO. Wasn’t him? Conspiracy? No Steven, simply total disregard for the people of Scotland and rubbing in our faces that the Better together were in no position to offer the promises they gave.

I could continue writing for the rest of the day. But I will not. The bottom line is that while the idea of a ‘conspiracy’ may sound incredibly thrilling for you because it gives the Tories some exciting and intriguing edge, unfortunately I do not think it really applies here. Tories are showing every day that they are far more mundane and boring than that. By the look of it, for them it is simply a matter of serving the rich elite, corporations and banks, bend and give soap to the generous wealthy donors, use the press to stay in power for as long as they can and cheat and lie until their teeth get green to hide their shortcomings.

By the way Steven, talking about cheating, any idea how the investigation into the electoral fraud of the Tory party during the GE is doing? I mean, the press doesn’t seem to be talking about that anymore and it is a rather important matter, don’t you think?

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

Steven
I know but one must try.
The ramblings of Maria say everything about the level of objectivity and I just can’t take anything she says seriously anymore.
Completely out of touch in the parallel Natsie universe where as long as someone else pays that is fine.
No concept of reality whatsoever.
Why don’t people realise that we are just giving money away when we give it to the EU.

Maria F
2 years ago

Doubting Thomas. You really are hilarious

“Why don’t people realise that we are just giving money away when we give it to the EU”

I rather give taxpayers’ money to the EU to be invested in the economy for the development and better of the citizens of the EU and as exchange for the benefit of access to the single market than giving away hundreds of billions of taxpayers’ money in the form of bailouts to failing banking businesses due to the casino banking practices of a few rogue banksters incapable to manage the risk of their gambling activities with other people’ money. Money that, by the way, will end up in the pockets of a few fatcats rather than in the economy benefiting ordinary citizens.

But, let’s not lose focus. You do realise that the EU referendum was over and done two months ago, don’t you Thomas? And that the result cannot be changed now? And that 62% of those voting in Scotland did so to Remain in the EU?

So why on earth keep flogging a dead horse Thomas? What do you really expect to achieve?

Or is it that you really are on a mission to distract the people reading Bella from the enormous discrepancy that it is the fact that while the Scottish unionist parties fought for a remain vote during the EU referendum and got it – Ms Davidson was superb on those TV debates against Mr Boris Johnson, don’t you think Thomas? – they are now back pedaling and fast perhaps because although they achieved the result they thought they wanted, this result may be not that convenient anymore for the agenda of their parties HQ down in London?

What come may Thomas the majority of the people voting in Scotland during the EU referendum did so to remain and that is completely different to the vote in England and Wales.

This changes completely the political, social, economic, security, environmental and immigration dynamics of the Union we were asked to vote on the 18 September 2014 and are not what the Better together were offering if a No vote won.

Remaining in the EU and also in the Union may not be possible anymore and therefore this massive change brought up by the desire of the majorities in England and Wales to leave the EU totally justifies another indiref because at the end of the day it was not the people of Scotland who caused this massive change, were they Thomas?

So if the people of Scotland didn’t cause this change, why do they have to pay for its consequences? Why do they have to be dragged out of the EU against their will?

Doubting Thomas
2 years ago

And so the mask finally slips Maria!
You are clearly not a natural supporter of the SNP but in fact are one of the very hard lefties who have jumped on the bandwagon hoping to break up the union and create a communist utopia.
How dishonest of you!!

greatelephantcensus
2 years ago

“I have a real business that is looking like it is going lose access to crucial eu matched funding”

So EU funding is ‘crucial’ to your ‘business’?

This funding is essential to your ‘business’, yes?

i.e. this ‘funding’ otherwise known as ‘subsidy’ is required for your ‘business’ to function.

In other words, your business doesn’t wash its face and isn’t solvent, without this subsidy.

So it’s not actually a real, profitable business is it?

It’s a fake business, dependent on subsidy from a communal pot. i.e. your business, and your lifestyle (whatever that is) is paid for by other people.

You’ll probably retort with something about farming (your “business” might be something to do with food).

Actually, it’s time everyone started paying for the real price of food, and not demanding that it is artificially cheap, something too often secured by subsidy.

Not simple, because of the power of supermarkets etc. But that should be the goal.

Not for you though. You’ll keep demanding subsidy paid for out of the communal pot, the communal pot being filled up by taxes, most of which are paid by the evil rich who maintain the Evil Corporatist Right Wing Neoliberal Capitalist system you purpose to despise.

(Even though its what puts the food on your table, because your ‘business’ can’t)

Maria F
2 years ago

Greatelephantcensus

“In other words, your business doesn’t wash its face and isn’t solvent, without this subsidy”

Do you think that without the hundreds of billions of taxpayers’ money in the form of ‘bail outs’ pumped into the insolvent bank businesses, stars of the neoliberal capitalist system, those failing financial businesses would have survived? So according to you they should have let fall down to the ground, am I correct?

Now, how much of those hundreds of billions of pounds taken from the taxpayers’ coffers was thrown into the incompetent banksters, many of them tories, that run those businesses to the ground due to their incompetence at risk management’s pockets in the form of ‘bonuses’ to maintain their lifestyles?

“taxes, most of which are paid by the evil rich who maintain the Evil Corporatist Right Wing Neoliberal Capitalist system you purpose to despise”

It very much looks to me Greatelephantcensus that while Ian is struggling to maintain itself, his business and perhaps his employees afloat, the Evil Corporatist Right Wing Neoliberal Capitalist system represented by the insolvent banks, private railway operators taking subsides from the taxpayers and making hundreds of millions in profit and private corporations taking a huge chunk of the common pot in the form of work benefits so they can continue paying below the living wage and pocketing the benefits are the ones taking the most of the communal pot an without deserving it. And you know what is the worse part of it? The Tories are letting them away with it willingly and with a pat in the back whilst they force ‘austerity’ on everybody else.

Now, talking about subsidies, do you think the Tories’ “business” would have “washed its face” and would have been “solvent” in number of votes to win the GE without the “subsidy” of the dodgy expenses fraud that is under investigation in 33 constituencies?

“So it’s not actually a real, profitable business is it? ”

Well, let’s not put the cart before the horse. We will have to wait for the investigations into the electoral fraud to conclude, don’t you think?

But remind me again, how many Tory candidates are being involved in the investigations?

was that 29? Right, because as of now the Tories only hold a majority of 12, isn’t that right?

Without those 29 the Tories are not longer going to be “solvent” to hold a majority, are they?

Who is going to subsidise them then to maintain their lifestyle of austerity politics?

Kenny Smith
2 years ago

Hear hear MF. You put it better than I ever could. Ever think of putting an article on here yourself? The numpties are really getting in a twist now. All they have left is the kind of unionist behaviour we saw on the 19th September 2014. Do they think that and their ramblings are doing their side a favour? Keep regurgitating the Daily Mail that will stop em n if that doesn’t work we will simply attack them on the street

Richard
2 years ago

“It’s hard not to disagree with Nicola Sturgeon that the Tories should simply ‘be ashamed’ by the situation” – don’t you mean it’s hard not to agree with her that the Tories etc. should be ashamed? Or is the resistance to the Scottish government too big to even condemn the Tories _with_ her for once? Just curious if that was a disguised policy statement, a Freudian slip, or just a typo (gotten tangled in the fancy wording, what with all the double negations etc.?).
Good article though.