Minutes from our F2F are now available here:
http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/7/2/F2F-databinding-minutes.html
and below for tracker's benefit:
- DRAFT -
Databinding WG F2F
13 Feb 2007
See also: IRC log
Attendees
Present
Jon Calladine (BT)
George Cowe (Origo Services Limited)
Paul Downey (BT)
Yves Lafon (W3C)
Priscilla Walmsley (W3C Invited Expert) (Tuesday, by phone)
Regrets
Vladislav Bezrukov (SAP AG)
Chair
pauld
Scribe
pauld
Contents
* Topics
1. Administrivia
2. Test Suite
3. lc-erh-1 : typo "casue"
4. lc-i18n-1 : BOM link to Unicode FAQ
5. lc-i18n-2 : Working with Time Zones
6. lc-i18n-3: language type to reference BCP47
7. lc-drkm-1: XPath 2.0 and node-set
8. lc-psd-1: WS-I Basic Profile compliant schema import
9. lc-jmarsh-1: XPath Expressions Too Complex?
10. lc-jmarsh-2: Schema Version Attribute
11. lc-jmarsh-3: Duplicate Listing
12. lc-jmarsh-4: Value of @mixed="false" etc
13. lc-jmarsh-5: Grouping of R2800 and R2112
14. lc-Microsoft-1: Support for Attributes
15. lc-Microsoft-2: Element References
16. lc-Microsoft-3: Nested Sequences and sequences other than
minOccurs=maxOccurs=1
17. lc-Microsoft-4: schemaLocation
18. lc-Microsoft-5: maxOccurs=finite
19. lc-Microsoft-6: Null enumerations
20. lc-Microsoft-7: Mixing elements maxOccurs=1 and maxOccurs>1
...
21. lc-Microsoft-8: Mixing elements maxOccurs=1 and maxOccurs>1
in the same inheritance chain
22. Pattern Detection Service
23. lc-pwalmsley-1: Document or Element Node
24. lc-pwalmsley-2: "node-set" should be "sequence"
25. lc-pwalmsley-3: QualifiedLocalElements
26. lc-pwalmsley-5: ElementFinal
27. lc-pwalmsley-6: ImportTypesNamespace
28. lc-pwalmsley-7: GlobalElement and GlobalAttribute
29. lc-pwalmsley-8: @type colon
30. lc-pwalmsley-9: GlobalElementSequence
31. lc-pwalmsley-10: ElementMaxOccursFinite
32. lc-pwalmsley-11: ElementEmptySequence @name
33. lc-pwalmsley-12: ElementEmptySequence not(node())
34. lc-pwalmsley-13, lc-pwalmsley-14:
35. lc-pwalmsley-15: Global SimpleType Declarations
36. lc-pwalmsley-16: GlobalSimpleType and GlobalComplexType
37. lc-pwalmsley-17: StringEnumerationType
* Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________________
Administrivia
gcowe: would like to change the Siebel/Origo comment in the minutes
pauld: OK!
Test Suite
pauld: we need to publish our reports - patterns detected in schemas
in the wild and interoperbility of patterns with toolkits.
yves: been working with XMLUnit. It's not perfect, but may be good
enough.
pauld: we need a rollup to compare individual toolkits, need to fix
log namespace for non-namespace schemas, but looks good!
... Plan is for Yves to work on the rollup, pauld will work on
detecting patterns in the wild jon and george to battle with Java
toolkits
... OK today we answer comments, rest of the meeting we work on the
reports
BREAK
lc-erh-1 : typo "casue"
Jonc: actually a typeo in "Advanced"
pauld: i seem to have fixed it
... how do I work EXIT?
... Shoot me. Shoot me now!
RESOLUTION: close lc-erh-1 as accepted
lc-i18n-1 : BOM link to Unicode FAQ
pauld: do we have any tests for BOM?
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to write BOM examples for the testsuite
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-104 - Write BOM examples for the testsuite
[on Paul Downey - due 2007-02-20].
pauld: they want us to link to
http://www.unicode.org/unicode/faq/utf_bom.html#BOM
paul: informative reference?
pauld: any objections?
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to add informative reference for BOM link to
Unicode FAQ [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-105 - Add informative reference for BOM link
to Unicode FAQ [on Paul Downey - due 2007-02-20].
RESOLUTION: close lc-i18n-1 as accepted
lc-i18n-2 : Working with Time Zones
pauld: want to link to
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-timezone-20051013/
... looks like goodness
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to add reference to
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-timezone-20051013/ [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-106 - Add reference to
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-timezone-20051013/ [on Paul Downey -
due 2007-02-20].
RESOLUTION: close lc-i18n-2 as accepted
lc-i18n-3: language type to reference BCP47
reference comes from XML Schema, our spec is all boilerplate here
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to add reference to BCP47 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-107 - Add reference to BCP47 [on Paul Downey
- due 2007-02-20].
RESOLUTION: close lc-i18n-3 as accepted
lc-drkm-1: XPath 2.0 and node-set
pauld: used node-set but that's XPath 1.0
... Priscilla raised the same comment, and I trust both to be correct,
however node-set is in common usage. Sequence implies order, but we
don't care about order
... let's park this until Priscilla joins us
lc-psd-1: WS-I Basic Profile compliant schema import
pauld: this pattern should really be Basic, is this a significant
change?
gcowe: I use this pattern quite a bit
pauld: only way you can import a schema and be BP compliant
... easy to write a constrained XPath for this commonly used pattern
any objections to adding this to Basic?
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to add a Basic Pattern for BP compliant
schema import [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action05]
RESOLUTION: close lc-psd-1 as accepted
lc-jmarsh-1: XPath Expressions Too Complex?
pauld: sounds a little like "too many notes, your royal highness" ;-)
.. it is a fair comment though, our XPaths are proforma, but gnarly.
.. Jonathan thinks XPath is complex, wonder how he'll like moving to
the terminology as well
... I agree, in cases such as this we can simplify the expressions
.. @targetNamespace is not the same as .[@targetNamespace]/ (.,
@targetNamespace) since that returns two nodes
jonc: is he asking us not to use this style where not needed?
pauld: there are other XPaths which can be simplified
jonc: will review the XPaths to simplify
pauld: I quite like them all being the same style, would some
introduction text help?
... but for this pattern, it is necessary to match xs:schema and
targetNamesapce because we don't allow xs:schema without a
targetNamespace!
<scribe> ACTION: jcalladi to review XPaths for unnecessary nodes being
matched [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-108 - Review XPaths for unnecessary nodes
being matched [on Jonathan Calladine - due 2007-02-20].
pauld: will reject this comment for @targetNamespace, but accept the
thrust which is to simplify the patterns where possible
RESOLUTION: close c-jmarsh-1 as rejected
lc-jmarsh-2: Schema Version Attribute
pauld: how does it help with databinding?
jonc: assumption is we're encouraging it, we're just saying it's
allowed
pauld: we allowed it because it's mostly harmless, tools can ignore it
... can we flag patterns as being noise
gcowe: would we leave it out or move it to Advanced?
jonc: but it's not Advanced under our criteria of doesn't fail with
tools
<JonC> first do no harm....
RESOLUTION: close lc-jmarsh-2 as rejected, subject to tools working
with the pattern
lc-jmarsh-3: Duplicate Listing
pauld: thinks the example is demonstrating two uses of annotation,
should be split
... do we want an ElementDocumentationElement and a
SchemaDocumentationElement, etc, etc?
... is there value in such fine-grained patterns?
gcowe: it's mostly ignored by tools anyway
pauld: we could go the other way and make the example have
ComplexType/xs:annotation SimpleType/xs:annotation, etc to be clear,
but then that would be difficult if we moved SimpleType to Advanced at
some point
jonc: one pattern seems good enough
pauld: it's confusing, maybe we need another test case, but simplify
the example in the spec
... we need to test it before splitting the pattern
<scribe> ACTION: gcowe: to split DocumentationElement example into
more than one example / testcase [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - gcowe:
<Yves> !rehash
RESOLUTION: accept lc-jmarsh-3
lc-jmarsh-4: Value of @mixed="false" etc
<JonC> I think we recognise the feeling here that it is the lack of
problematic patterns that is of interest
<JonC> but it is not what the basic patterns document is really about
pauld: the pattern is Basic if tools swallow it without barfing
... is the @mixed!='true' really saying //@mixed!='true'
Jonc: it's a slippery slope
pauld: seen schemas which generate this and other defaults explicitly
and interoperate
RESOLUTION: lc-jmarsh-4 rejected
pauld: this is a little like like ROOM 101
lc-jmarsh-5: Grouping of R2800 and R2112
pauld: puzzled - R2112 is something we allow, but BP doesn't whereas
R2800 is vice-versa
... let's reject it and get Jonathan to explain why, he is a BP expert
after all!
RESOLUTION: lc-jmarsh-5 rejected
lc-Microsoft-1: Support for Attributes
jonc: we're about what works with toolkits now, not what might be
removed in the future
gcowe: we find attributes useful, certainly we don't want to move away
from them
<JonC> also think that we have never been in the business of setting
the bar so very low
pauld: I'd be sympathetic if there was a "state of the art" toolkit
which didn't handle them.
... under our way of working, attributes are fine, but I think it's an
interesting comment, and a warning things may be more constrained
... I'd like to be able to round-trip to and from JSON without a
schema, and such a constraint would help greatly
<JonC> we have identified issues with attributes and marked as
advanced this is the way forward not removing support for them
entirely
pauld: our testing will help here
... nothing to stop Microsoft publishing their own "Very Basic"
document using our patterns, or a few of them, anyway
... actually that's something we'd encourage, vendors being more
explicit about which patterns are or are not supported
RESOLUTION: lc-Microsoft-1 rejected
lc-Microsoft-2: Element References
pauld: worries me because I use it to wrap example elements into the
test suite WSDL
jonc: all our schemas contain them
pauld: I think it's a valid constraint though, and there are no
natural equivalent in most modern programming languages (C pointers
anyone?)
... well, not to a type, that is
<JonC> but what toolkit fails with them?
pauld: exactly, that's our criteria
discussion of mapping global elements to programming languages
if a sequence contains elements from a different namespace, what's the
mapping to a C#/Java class?
pauld: .NET annotations cope with this, no?
... do we need a test case for crossing namespaces, or tighten the
pattern to just within the same namespace?
... nervous of defining such patterns as they need a component model
to span schemas
gcowe: do we need an example of spanning multiple namespaces?
pauld: propose we split this pattern to "within the same schema
document" and "across schemas" not namespaces, and then have an
example to test this
... OK, we'll keep this open, subject to testing
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to split ElementReference into two patterns
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-110 - Split ElementReference into two
patterns [on Paul Downey - due 2007-02-20].
lc-Microsoft-3: Nested Sequences and sequences other than
minOccurs=maxOccurs=1
pauld: I think they're being helpful, are we too fine-grained here?
gcowe: it's complexity that's needed
jonc: is maxOccurs=1 a typeo
gcowe: think this is pushing wrapped for repeated elements
... modelling tools don't always generate wrapped arrays
jonc: we may end up making bare arrays advanced subject to testing
pauld: let's hold off on this subject to testing
lc-Microsoft-4: schemaLocation
pauld: big +1 to that
RESOLUTION: lc-Microsoft-4 accepted
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to add advice that schemaLocation is a hint
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-111 - Add advice that schemaLocation is a
hint [on Paul Downey - due 2007-02-20].
lc-Microsoft-5: maxOccurs=finite
pauld: I agree with the comment!
gcowe: we need this for our schemas
jonc: our criteria is if tools don't reject it it's basic
pauld: zero, one, many
... few tools do validation, or build an array[3] anymore, well 'C'
might
... hold this open subject to testing
lc-Microsoft-6: Null enumerations
this came from an X.694 inspired contribution
pauld: it's valid schema, comment asks if it's useful
do we have to justify use of patterns in the spec?
scribe: it is listed as a "
... way of saying a value is Null
... always Null in X.694
pauld: it is fairly Zen though, sound of no data passing
... what does it mean to accept this comment?
... will write back and explain the origin, will remain in the spec
subject to testing, but i suspect one tool at least doesn't support
it, so it's toast
<JonC> advanced toast anyway
RESOLUTION: lc-Microsoft-6 accepted
LUNCH!
lc-Microsoft-7: Mixing elements maxOccurs=1 and maxOccurs>1 ...
Jonc: bare arrays
pauld: "Bare arrays do not support the distinction between null arrays
and empty arrays"
... seems like a valid comment from a code-first POV
... you can't send a null array with a bare array
... we've decided not to offer advice on chosing a pattern, is this a
special case?
<JonC> also valid comment from a efficiency/productivity POV e.g. XSLT
pauld: i don't understand the efficiency comment
jonc: tools don't bail on this
pauld: sounds like a "Design Consideration"
... maybe the XSLT comment referds to A* B* C* A*
... seems like I might elect not to use this pattern, but does that
mean that schemas which exhibit this pattern are rejected by tools?
... how strongly do people feel about this? Do we need more
information, how widely used is the pattern?
gcowe: we use it
<JonC> sounds more like best practice recommendation ???
pauld: and you're a member of the WG!
... it's in our spec, to lose it we have to demonstrate lack of
support. To accept the comment we have to change the way we work. I
might not like this pattern but if it works with tools and is used in
Schemas in the wild, then it's basic.
jonc: we're going to continue using wrapped as our default, but don't
see any reason to remove as yet
pauld: let's keep it open, subject to testing
lc-Microsoft-8: Mixing elements maxOccurs=1 and maxOccurs>1 in the same
inheritance chain
pauld: a challenge to write an XPath for this across multiple schema
documents, but is the comment valid?
... in some ways depends upon lc-Microsoft-7
... do we have a test case?
<scribe> ACTION: gcowe to write a test case for lc-Microsoft-8
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-112 - Write a test case for lc-Microsoft-8
[on George Cowe - due 2007-02-20].
Pattern Detection Service
gcowe: patterns detection stylesheet,
... can we reference a stylesheet for the output?
pauld: prefer to do that server side
<scribe> ACTION: ylafon to make patterns detection service run
stylesheet [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-113 - Make patterns detection service run
stylesheet [on Yves Lafon - due 2007-02-20].
gcowe: I have a version which works with file upload and URI
yves: can we provide the source / war file for people wanting to run
this for themselves
gcowe: that's fine
pauld: what about the "freshness" of the patterns.xml file used, where
does it come from?
ylafon: service runs from a copy of the stylesheet
pauld: how do we get changes propogated?
... can we put the source code war file rollup into the WG CVS?
gcowe: we could make the service pickup the live version, and make
that configurable
<scribe> ACTION: gcowe to make the detection service pick up the live
stylesheet, configurably [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action12]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-114 - Make the detection service pick up the
live stylesheet, configurably [on George Cowe - due 2007-02-20].
<scribe> ACTION: gcowe to put patterns detection source code into WG
CVS [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action13]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-115 - Put patterns detection source code
into WG CVS [on George Cowe - due 2007-02-20].
pauld: when do we go live / announce the service?
yves: not tied to publication of our documents
pauld: plan to announce it with publication of our reports
... do we consider bundling WS-I BP in our service?
TBD
lc-pwalmsley-1: Document or Element Node
RESOLUTION: lc-pwalmsley-1 accepted
pwalmsley: ok with me!
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to edit lc-pwalmsley-1 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action14]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-117 - Edit lc-pwalmsley-1 [on Paul Downey -
due 2007-02-20].
lc-pwalmsley-2: "node-set" should be "sequence"
pauld: we also have this as lc-drkm-1
pwalmsley: term node-set isn't used in XPath, is order significant
pauld: no
RESOLUTION: lc-pwalmsley-2 accepted
RESOLUTION: close lc-drkm-1 as accepted
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to edit lc-pwalmsley-2 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action15]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-118 - Edit lc-pwalmsley-2 [on Paul Downey -
due 2007-02-20].
pauld: also closes lc-drkm-1: XPath 2.0 and node-set ?
lc-pwalmsley-3: QualifiedLocalElements
pwalmsley: example doesn't have any elements
http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-patterns/#pattern-QualifiedLocalElement
s
name of the pattern is misleading?
pwalmsley: don't feel strongly, we can just leave it
pauld: we have an assertion:
http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-patterns/#assert-QualifiedLocalElements
-summary
RESOLUTION: lc-pwalmsley-3 rejected
pwalmsley: OK with this
lc-pwalmsley-5: ElementFinal
RESOLUTION: accept lc-pwalmsley-5
pwalmsley: OK with this
lc-pwalmsley-6: ImportTypesNamespace
pwalmsley: might be invalid use of schema
pauld: trying to capture a common pattern used within WSDL
... maybe we could add another clause to capture self reference in
(@namespace = ../xs:schema/@targetNamespace)]
pwalmsley: that would be an invalid schema
RESOLUTION: rejected lc-pwalmsley-6
pwalmsley: I'm OK with that
lc-pwalmsley-7: GlobalElement and GlobalAttribute
pauld: exists not to fire the catchall
pwalmsley: might not be necessary
<pwalmsley> ./xs:element[@name and @type and contains(@type, ':')]/
(., @name, @type)
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xmlschema-patterns-20061122/#group-Global
Element
pauld: simplifying is goodness
<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to remove @name and @type from
GlobalAttribute and GlobalElement [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action16]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-119 - Remove @name and @type from
GlobalAttribute and GlobalElement [on Paul Downey - due 2007-02-20].
RESOLUTION: accept lc-pwalmsley-7
pwalmsley: OK with that!
lc-pwalmsley-8: @type colon
pwalmsley: a client also encountered this issue, so happy to withdraw
the comment
RESOLUTION: lc-pwalmsley-8 rejected
lc-pwalmsley-9: GlobalElementSequence
RESOLUTION: accepted lc-pwalmsley-9
pwalmsley: I'm OK with that!
lc-pwalmsley-10: ElementMaxOccursFinite
RESOLUTION: accepted lc-pwalmsley-10
pwalmsley: I'm OK, it's incorrect
<pwalmsley> .//xs:element[@maxOccurs != ('0','1','unbounded')]
pwalmsley: other comment in the mail on global element sequence -
please ignore
lc-pwalmsley-11: ElementEmptySequence @name
pauld: similar issue
RESOLUTION: accept lc-pwalmsley-11
lc-pwalmsley-12: ElementEmptySequence not(node())
pauld: not (* except xs:annotation) seems good
RESOLUTION: accept lc-pwalmsley-12
lc-pwalmsley-13, lc-pwalmsley-14:
pauld: we've been here before!
<pwalmsley> analogous to 11 and 12
RESOLUTION: accept lc-pwalmsley-13, lc-pwalmsley-14
lc-pwalmsley-15: Global SimpleType Declarations
pwalmsley: it's editorial, wording
RESOLUTION: accept lc-pwalmsley-15
lc-pwalmsley-16: GlobalSimpleType and GlobalComplexType
pwalmsley: same again!
RESOLUTION: accept lc-pwalmsley-16
lc-pwalmsley-17: StringEnumerationType
<pwalmsley> withdrawn
pwalmsley: withdraw that one, cathcall picks it up
RESOLUTION: lc-pwalmsley-17 rejected
pwalmsley: I'm OK with all the resolutions!
pauld: Right, rest of our time is to be spent working on the reports -
so we're ADJOURNED!
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: gcowe to make the detection service pick up the live
stylesheet, configurably [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: gcowe to put patterns detection source code into WG CVS
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: gcowe to write a test case for lc-Microsoft-8 [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: gcowe: to split DocumentationElement example into more
than one example / testcase [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: jcalladi to review XPaths for unnecessary nodes being
matched [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: pauld to add a Basic Pattern for BP compliant schema
import [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to add advice that schemaLocation is a hint
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to add informative reference for BOM link to
Unicode FAQ [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to add reference to BCP47 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to add reference to
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/NOTE-timezone-20051013/ [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to edit lc-pwalmsley-1 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to edit lc-pwalmsley-2 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to remove @name and @type from GlobalAttribute
and GlobalElement [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to split ElementReference into two patterns
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: pdowney to write BOM examples for the testsuite
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: ylafon to make patterns detection service run stylesheet
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/02/13-databinding-minutes.html#action11]
[End of minutes]