Um, should we really be making cards before we have the actual rules of the game down pact(or is it pack?). Not saying that you shouldn't be making cards right now, it's just that I would prefer that we not be all that shaky on the rules. Unless you all have already decided on the rules, and decided not to tell me? . Well, I'm going to be looking at my printed-up version of the rules, and post all my pencil written notes later.

I agree with Arti. Making up cards helps with rules, but it's also fun

Heres another idea I thought of:

An alternative winning condition. Notice how Han seemed to change his life around when he joined up with the Rebels. Maybe you could win by doing "good deeds" for the Rebels (like a virtue score. Then you may not get as much cash from doing Rebel Contracts, but you feel good about it.

Here's another concept. Some planets are remote rebel bases. While I don't envision planets having excessive gametext on them, I think they need a little expklaination, remembering to keep in the spirit of Star Wars.

I also like the idea of keywords being clear. Here are a couple of cards:

Hoth
planet- Smuggler Deck

Keywords: Rebel Base, remote, uninhabited
No trade available
You may only move here if you have a rebel contract that designated Hoth. Imperial Ships may not play here.

and also

Report Rebel Base
Smuggler event
If you are at a Rebel Base planet, play on that base, then gain 30,000 credits, but lose all your virtue. You may immediately play a Star Destroyer from your Smuggleer hand for free to that Base. That Rebel base's game text is ignored.
Lore: A nasty way to make a living, but hey, a guys gotta eat.

Virtue is a good idea, and could easily be incorporated as a statistic on a Rebel Contract card, along with the payout and rewards. "Payout: 15,000 credits. Virtue: 5 points".

Imperial contracts could have a negative virtue.

...

BTW, I got your little "demo" on the hidden hand. I understand the mechanics (I think) I just don't see the necessity of it. I can "bluff" with the cards in my hand. I don't need to hide my cards face down on the table to bluff with them. (Shrug)

Incidentally, speaking of "bluffing", one thing that always amuses me to see in SW:CCG -- tell me if you've seen this before -- a player activates, deploys nothing, and draws everything up ... next turn, activates, deploys nothing, and draws everything up again ... next turn activates, deploys nothing, and draws one card, two cards -- and then stops. Hmmm... do you think he finally got the card he was looking for???

Before we decide on separate Imperial decks and hidden hands, let me ask you a question:

Immediately after reading the first few posts, I realized this game would really only work if both players play smugglers racing against each other to win. There would be no point to a purely Imperial player in a game about "smuggling". So obviously both players must be smugglers, with each player playing Imperials against his opponent's smugglers.

But in all the other games I've played where both players play the "hero", each player must take turns playing the "hero" while his opponent plays the "villain". While I'm the "hero", your "hero" cards are not considered in play, and vice-versa. LOTR is like that, as well as some other CCGs out there.

My idea was to see if that could change. Can you have a game where both players play BOTH the heroes and villains at the same time? So if I'm playing Han in the Falcon and you're Dash in the Outrider, can we both participate in the same battle at the same time against the Imperial ships? Can we both play Imperial ships to the table and use each other's Imperials to battle smugglers? (Think of creaturs in SW:CCG - they attack your own characters as well as your opponent's.)

My question, then, is this: do you guys like this idea? Do you think it could work? Or is it too complicated for gameplay purposes?

I think that the "virtue" is a good idea. Kind of reminds me of the old board game "Careers". In that game, you chose your success formula, which had to equal 60. So you could have 20 fame, 20 happiness, and 20 money (20,000 dollars). But the value here is used as an alternate win condition, which I think is cool.

Since the credits needed to win is 100,000 (which is still undecided, anyway) I'd think that a virtue score of 30 or so would be sufficient.

And about credits, would they be represented by tokens, or just writing "I have 40,000 credits" on a piece of paper. I don't really like either idea, to be honest. When I'm playing a game, I want to have a visible idea of how far ahead I am. In SW:CCG, you can see the size of each players deck/lost pile, in LotR, you can see your token on the adventure path. I don't really play ST:ccg that much, but I understand that you pull completed missions towards you, so you can have a representation of how far ahead you are. So I'd rather see a pile of tokens in front of me, than "40,000" on a piece of paper. But using tokens would mean that you'd have to have 40 to start with (assuming that 1 token=1,000 credits) and Have 100 in order to win. Not to mention 30 or so different tokens for the "virtue" score.

So here's my suggestion, either we lower the win condition (and comparitively the money for contracts, ships and what not) or we use something like poker chips. I.e we have a 1,000 chip, a 5,000 one, 10,000, etc. I don't think poker chips cost all that much to buy.

Another thing, about the turn sequence. I looked at the rules again, and are you saying that it won't be "my turn, your turn" it'll be "my phase/your phase" I think that's kind of confusing. Also, It could be abused. A player could conceivably use all his points to move all Imperial ships away from his Smugglers, not allowing you to fight him, and forcing you to fight (unless you're carrying legal cargo). I might have read it wrong, but if I didn't, then I think that we should just stick to the traditional "your turn/my turn".

Just so we have our terminology correct, a "turn" involves going through all the "phases" (smuggler phase, imperial phase, etc.), and "phases" are made up of "actions" (deploy, jump, draw, etc.).

A "your turn/my turn" approach totally obliterates my idea that all cards are in play simultaneously.

"Your phase/my phase" would work for the Smuggler, Move, Trading and Even Up phases. Imperial and Battle phases would have to use a "your action/my action" approach, kinda like Jedi Knights. The turn could be a mix of "your phase/my phase" and "your action/my action", or the whole turn could use the "your action/my action" approach.

For example, if everything is according to actions, the following could be a sample turn:

I'm player 1, you're player 2. I have Han and the Falcon at Corellia, you have Dash and the Outrider at Kessel. I have 2 Star Destroyers at Coruscant, you have 3 Dreadnaughts and 1 TIE Squadron. We each start with a hand of eight cards. I have 20,000 credits (the 40,000 I started with, minus the Falcon's cost of 20,000). You have 23,000 (the Outrider costs 17,000).

Smuggler Phase:

I'm player 1, so I go first in this phase.

I draw a contract.
You deploy the Wild Karrde to Tatooine, paying its build cost of 15,000, leaving you with 8,000.
I deploy a cargo card - power converters - to the Falcon, paying it's average? cost of 10,000 leaving me with 10,000.
You draw a contract.
I pass.
You play the contract to the table. It's "Grand Moff Whatsisname's Spice". (Let's ignore contract bidding for this example.)
I pass. (I'm waiting for the Move phase.)
You play a spice cargo card on the Karrde for 5,000, leaving you with 3,000.
I pass.
You pass.

Since we both pass, we go to the next phase....

Imperial Phase:

You go first in this phase.

You know I'm holding some power converters. A Hutt contract is highly unlikely. An Imperial contract is possible, but a Rebel contract is most likely. You decide to move one of my Star Destroyers from Coruscant to Yavin. This is in the Star Destroyer's range, so it only costs you 1 Empire point.

I know exactly what the Wild Karrde is doing, but there's not much I can do to stop it, since it is an Imperial contract. I move a Star Destroyer and the TIE Squadron to Kessel, where the Outrider is hanging out. This is a long jump for the Destroyer (the Squadron goes along for the ride, like TIEs do in SW:CCG) so it costs me 3 Empire points.

You move a Dreadnaught to Hoth. This is outside it's range, so it costs you 3 Empire points.

I don't have much need for moving any more ships, but I move a Dreadnaught to Endor just to get it out of the way. I've used up all 6 of my points now.

You have 2 points left, so you move one last Dreadnaught to Dantooine.

I have no points left, so I must pass.

You have 1 point left, but nothing to do with it, so you pass. This 1 point will carry over to the next turn, giving you 7 total.

Next phase...

Move Phase:

I go first this time.

I jump the Falcon to Dantooine.

You jump the Karrde to Ralltiir.

I pass.

You jump the Outrider to Kuat, away from the Star Destroyer I moved to Kessel.

I pass.

You pass.

Battle Phase:

You go first this time.

Starting at Coruscant, we move down the space line until we reach a system where there are Imperial and Smuggler ships. The first system where that happens is Dantooine.

(i) Confrontation Step: There's only one Imperial ship present, so you choose the Dreadnaught to confron the Falcon.

(ii) Boarding Step: I choose not to dump my cargo, and I choose not to be boarded. Let's fight!

(iii) Imperial Weapons Step: The Dreadnaught's power is 5, the Falcon's maneuver is 6. You draw a weapon destiny of 5. I draw a maneuver destiny of 2. The Dreadnaught's total power is 5+5=10, the Falcon's total maneuver is 6+2=8, so the Falcon is hit. I put two damage counters on the Falcon, wh

Okay, I get it. We could conceivably play as both Imperial and Smugglers in a your turn/my turn format, but now that you put it that way, it does seem simpler. It's just that I'm used to drawing cards, and then waiting for my opponent to finish his turn. Now, I draw, and it's still "my" turn. After thinking about it, I like it. But forget having some phases be "my phase/your phase" it'd probably be a bit to confusing remembering which phases we each took a phase, and which ones we each took actions. Let's just do actions all the way!

Ok, and for win conditions, I was thinking that it could be different for each player. Either it's printed on some card that is face down for most of the game, or it's on your starting pilot. The first option is pretty cool, because your opponent wouldn't know what you were going for, money or virtue. The "face-down" cards would be played at the start of the game, face down (either on table, or under your ship or something). These cards would be a special card type, that you would only be allowed one of in your deck. Example: One of them could say: to win, collect 80,000 credits, and 20 virtue. The cards would have different types of win conditions, either all money, all virtue, or various mixtures of the two. The other option would be to have it printed on your starting smuggler. And if that smuggler dies, then you still keep the same "formula" for the rest of the game. But of course if you lose the bid, then you'll have to change your "formula". But there would probably be many smugglers that had the same win conditions, so you wouln't be missing out totally.

Another thing, you mentioned "contract bidding". I can't remember how this goes, please refresh my memory!!

Hmmm... on second thought, a "turn-based" approach could still work, I think... Let me think about it some more.

"Contract bidding" would be for certain Imperial contracts. Let's say you play an Imperial contract to the table with a printed payout of 40,000 credits, that says "opponent may bid on this contract". I might bid 30,000. You bid 25,000. I bid 24,000. You could bid 23,000, but if you did you wouldn't make much profit on it, so you pass. I've now won your contract, but I only get 24,000 for completing it, not 40,000, so my profit is much, much less than normal. But it may be more important to me that you LOSE the contract!

It may not be a good mechanic for a card game, it's just something that occurred to me....

I guess the biggest mistake I made in my original posts was that I must have assumed you guys were mind readers!

I had always envisioned that both players would control the Imperuial cards. Once a card was on table for the Imperial side, they could be moved and used at will by other players. The main purpose of Star Destroyers is to block systems.

I believe a your turn, my turn sequence could still work in this way. THe difference is, the other player's cards don't "switch off" like in LotR, they are still in play. Once a SD hits the table, it stays. If you cross paths with your opponent, they are there.

I don't like calling it the "Battle Phase" since more than just battling occurs there. I was going to call it a "Confrontation Phase" but then I had a "Confrontation Step", so that wouldn't work. How about: Entanglement Phase ("Let's just say we'd like to avoid any Imperial Entanglements.")Encounter Phase

Also, I just can't see a way for it to be turn-based, if all Imperial and smuggler ships are in play at the same time.

In SW:CCG, your characters and the like are still present, still able to battle (but not initiate) and you can still play most interrupts.

In SWS:FBCG, all Imperial ships are always there, able to be used by both players, and your ship is generally docked at a system. It's just that you can't manipulate the opponent's ship.

It would turn out similar to dilemmas in Trek. Just as you generally seed dilemma's at your oppoent's mission, you would generally play Imperials ships to your opponent's system. The difference is that both players can use the SD.

This does create a problem. What is to stop a player from constatly movign the SD away from where they are going or where they are to avoid conflict.

That is why you need a turn based system, otherwiase the Imperial ships would spenmd the whole game moving to and fro, controled by what the smugglers want to do!

What is to stop a player from constatly movign the SD away from where they are going or where they are to avoid conflict.

That's part of the strategy. Let's say I have the Falcon at Tatooine, and I move a Star Destroyer from Kessel to Kuat. You would say to yourself, "Hmmm... maybe he's planning to move the Falcon to Kessel ... I think I'll deploy this Star Destroyer in my hand to Kessel!" But maybe I'm bluffing, in which case you've wasted your deploy. (No ship can deploy and move in the same turn, or move twice in the same turn, so I can't move that Star Destroyer you just deployed.)

Because it is action-based, there's not much of a problem of me moving every Imperial ship away from where I'm going. That's why we seed Imperial ships at the start of the game.

Like I said, I think action-based could work, it's just that it may be too complicated. Turn-based is so much easier, but you lose some of the flavor, IMO.

Here's a thought that just occurred to me. What if capital ships had a pre-destined course they follow, a "patrol route" of some sort? Different Star Destroyer cards would have different routes. Certain event/interrupt cards could let a capital ship "roam" for a turn or two if necessary -- and some ships could have that built into their game text -- but after that it would have to resume its route.

Naturally, you would seed your deck with Imperial ships whose route does not intersect your smuggling plans ... but you never know what your opponent will do. And there's always the risk of your opponent playing an event/interrupt.

Starfighters would not have a route. TIE fighters -- which have no hyperspeed -- would have to be carried by Star Destroyers along their route, but they could be "left behind" at a particular sector if a player felt it was necessary. For example, if I have a Star Destroyer with 2 TIE Squadrons on it at Ralltiir, and I suspect you are going to be moving to Ralltiir this turn, I could disembark the squadrons before the Star Destroyer had to move on to its next stop.

You know, after thinking about it, I think that it is, in my opinion, the best choice to go with action-based turns. But make ALL phases action-based, that way, you don't have to remember everything for each phase, just have one way, and use it. And honestly, I think that action-based could actually be easier. It would reduce the time to make a move. And as for abusing it, just think about it. You only get 6 empire points per turn, and that means that you can only move 6 ships per turn (or less, range permitting) Let's say I have the Falcon at Tatooine, and you've got the Pulsar Skate at Kuat. For my action, I move a Star Destroyer from Kessel to Kuat. I've used one point. Now it's your action, You move another SD to Tatooine to confront me. Even if I move all the SD's I can away from me, you'll still probably be able to move some to confront me.

As for the route thingie, I personally think it's a great idea. I'm just wondering how we would do it. Would it say on the SD: Route: (parsecs)1-6 or something like that? Then it would be a bit different with "seeding" them. Perhaps there could be some ships that say that they "seed" at different systems.

One more thing, can we find another word for "seed"? I'm kinda getting tired of using it. It doesn't quite feel Star Wars-y, If you know what I mean...

I don't know if any of you have seen the official "Star Wars Fact File"

It is an ongoing magazine with all sorts of SDtar Wars facts that you put together in a binder. Included with the first issue was a map of the galaxy! Actually, it was this map that first inspuired me to post the idea of Smuggler: FBCG.

Anywho, on that map are the major trade/ travel routes of the galaxy. When I have a spare minute, I will note them down to post them.

The SDs could "seed" (You're right, lets get a better word for this!) along certain trade routes. Another idea I had was an Effect type card, even a starting card, that had one of the trade routes as it's name, and allowed tyou to, once per turn, play one of the mentioned systems to the table.

The actoin based turn is starting to sound better and better.

As for the Imperial deck concept with putting them on the table, while I am keen on it, maybe we could ditch it for what you guys are proposing. I think that would clear the way for a side deck that would hold resourses. (I mean, three decks for one game is getting too much!)

I was thinking of only one side deck, your "contracts" deck, which would just hold your contract cards. Everything else would be in your draw deck. (I'm thinking about 10-20 contracts max, with no more than 2 or 3 copies of any one contract. You don't want a player just making Kessel Runs all day.) But maybe a "resources" side deck with contracts AND cargo would be better....

Of course, you could just make a rule where planet cards let you pull cargo cards from your draw deck. If Kessel is on the table, you could deploy Spice there from your draw deck for free. The draw back is that you have to jump all the way to Kessel, land, take off again, and jump to your destination -- more risk of confronting an Imperial. If you drew the spice in your hand you could just pay its cost, deploy it to your ship, and be on your way.

Glad you guys like the patrol/trade route idea! Could make for some interesting strategy....

Revised rules.... Just consider everything here to be in BLUE, since any of it could change....

SETUP:

1. Both players start with a stash of 50,000 credits.

2. To see who goes first, players bid back and forth, starting with the youngest player, bidding in increments of 1,000 credits each, raising the bidding each time, until one "passes"; winning bidder loses that many credits. For example, I may start the bidding with 1,000. You raise it to 2,000. I raise it to 5,000. You pass. I lose 5,000 credits but I get to go first. The winning bidder is considered Player 1. His opponent is Player 2.

3. Player 1 plays a starting planet (may not be Coruscant) and a smuggler ship to that planet from his deck and pays that ship's cost in credits. Ships should typically cost between 10,000 and 20,000 credits. Player 2 then does the same. If Player 2 tries to play the same unique smuggler ship Player 1 played, he must play a different one. For example, if Player 1 plays the Millenium Falcon, Player 2 can not. But if Player 1 plays a generic Medium Bulk Freighter, Player 2 can play a Medium Bulk Freighter too. If Player 2 plays the same starting planet as Player 1, it simply overlays Player 1?s copy.

I think it would be neat if non-unique ship cards had an empty space on them where players could write the name of the ship.

Some unique ships will have the keyword Starting on them. Perform these actions when the ship comes into play during the setup phase only. If the ship comes into play later in the game, ignore this text. For example, the Millenium Falcon says: "Starting: Deploy Han, Chewie or Lando here from draw deck."

4. Now the rest of the space line is laid out. Starting with Player 1, each player alternates playing a planet from their deck, up to 5 different planets for each player (you can not play another copy of your starting planet). Each player must play Coruscant as one of their 5 planets. You can overlay another player's planet if it is already on the table. Lay out the planets on the table in order from sector 0 to sector 9. If two planets are in the same sector, the order does not matter.

5. Now players alternate (starting with Player 1) playing Imperial ships from their deck to the space line. Uniqueness rules still apply. If one player plays a unique Imperial ship, the other player can not play the same ship.

Each Imperial ship has a cost on it, and each player MUST spend 20 Empire points during Setup. The one exception to this rule is if a unique ship is on the table, you can spend points equal to the cost of that ship to discard a copy of that ship from your deck. For example, if Player 1 plays the Chimaera with a cost of 10 points, Player 2 can not play the Chimaera, but Player 2 could discard their Chimaera from their deck for 10 points.

If for some reason a player is unable to deploy and/or discard 20 points? worth, that player loses 1,000 credits for each point unspent. For example, if Player 2 can only deploy/discard 15 points, Player 2 loses 5,000 credits.

Most Imperials will deploy to Coruscant. If a ship has the keyword Deploy in its gametext, that ship may be deployed to Coruscant or to the system identified. In general, those systems will be where shipyards are present. For example, a Dreadnaught may have "Deploy: Kuat" in its gametext. That ship could be deployed to Coruscant or Kuat. TIEs may deploy to Coruscant or any system where any Imperial capital ship is present (even a ship owned by your opponent).

6. Finally, each player takes up to 10 Contract cards out of his deck [should these cards have a different card back, or should your opponent verify them?] shuffles them and places them in a Contract Deck (side deck). Then each player draws a hand of 8 cards.

TURN SEQUENCE:

In general, each player alternates taking actions during each phase of the turn. During phases when players are acting as smugglers, the phase starts with Player 1. During phases when players are acting as Imperials, th

I don't think I spent enough time on the last two phases. The Confrontation Phase wiped me out!

6. Smuggler Trading Phase: Starts with Player 1. Players alternate doing any of the following if they have at least one landed smuggler ship:
(a) Sell cargo - move a cargo card from the ship to the planet and add credits to your stash equal to its price.
(b) Buy cargo - move a cargo card from the planet to the ship - cargo space permitting - and remove credits from your stash equal to its price.
(c) Trade cargo - exchange one cargo card on your ship with one on the planet, adding or removing credits from your stash to make up the difference in prices.
(d) Complete a contract ? play a contract card from your hand to the table (if necessary), discard the corresponding cards (cargo, passengers, ordinance, etc.) from your ship, and add credits to your stash equal to the contract?s Payout.

In order to complete a contract, that player must have moved that cargo from another location to its destination.

Also, an additional rule for the Smuggler Deploy Phase: Cargo may not be deployed directly to a landed ship. You may only deploy that cargo to the planet (if it is common, average or rare to that planet) and then Buy or Trade that cargo to move it to your ship, or deploy that cargo to your ship in orbit around any planet.

Place the completed contract under the ship that completed it. If that ship is later discarded, the completed contract is discarded too. While the completed contract is on the table, the Virtue points and Rewards of that contract (if any) are in effect. Rewards and virtue points are never in effect for an uncompleted contract.

Uniqueness rules apply to contracts. While a unique contract is on the table, neither player may play another copy of that contract. If a unique uncompleted contract is discarded, any player may play another copy of that contract. If a unique completed contract is discarded, neither player may play another copy of that contract for the remainder of the game.

7. Draw Phase: Each player evens up his hand to eight cards. Players may discard as many cards as they like from their hand (even contract cards), face up to their discard pile, before drawing. Each player only has one discard pile (there is not a separate discard pile for contract cards).

If at any time a player depletes their draw deck, they can recycle their discard pile: remove all contract cards from the discard pile, shuffle the remaining cards and place them face down where your draw deck was. Shuffle the removed contract cards back into your contract deck.