Thursday, March 15, 2007

MOP Comments (Page 4)

It might be hard to believe, it might even seem impossible, but large sums of money raised to build a church, in the spiritually bankrupt city of Los Angeles, have been redirected to the rural countryside of Chino, California.

We have all heard it said, “Jesus is quoted more times in the Bible concerning the topic of money than heaven and hell put together.” Well, it would seem there is good reason for this, with the way that Christian organizations behave from time to time when it comes to finances.

Let your “yes” be YES and your “no” be NO. When a non-profit organization asks us for our hard earned money, and tells us that they are going to use it for a certain purpose, then they have a responsibility to spend those finances on the stated purpose and that purpose only. “Redirecting” funds that have been raised to build a building in Los Angeles, to a ministry in a completely different county, is essentially reconstructing a yes into a no. Did you do what you said you were going to? “Well, no.” Was the promise kept? “No.” Has the impossible been realized? “No.” Can we trust you with our money? “No.” Is something wrong with this situation? “YES”.

You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.. —Deuteronomy 28:62-63

What Erwin says is many times pretty good. Being a rebel with a cause myself I find his words challenging from time to time. The problem here are his actions. The "pitch" to invest in a better location in Los Angeles to impact that city was a great challenge; the end result to spend the money on other things was not. In the same way, he talks (in his books and messages) about living a Christ like life, but his actions do not deliver that. In that he treats the people that have served with him and for him with disrespect once he is finished with them. If you are at Mosaic now, especially as a leader, your time is coming, he will toss you aside too, eventually.

Desiring to warn those who have affiliated themselves with Mosaic a simple e-mail was sent out:

Since you are in the Mosaic Alliance we thought you might want to be aware of this:

www.mosaicofpain.com

Unfortunately, it seems that the tactics of this group have already begun to creep into some of those churches they are "aligning" with. Here is one reply that came back:

"Dear Sir (or Ma'am), It is interesting how the internet gives a veneer of anonymity allowing people to say the most hideous things about others. There is almost a "rite of passage" for honest organizations when a disgruntled employee makes trouble without cause. James Dobson, Laura Schlessinger, Rush Limbaugh and many others have had all kinds of falsehoods told by those who they've made uncomfortable. Before you tell me about concerns for your safety, I want to let you know that my own life has already been directly threatened when we left a bona fide cult and sought to expose them.

There is no place in the church for the anonymous throwing of accusations (Satan is the "accuser of the brethren). How do I know that your attack isn't because you have a root of bitterness in your own heart that has defiled you and is reaching out to defile others? Or that you have chosen to forsake the Lord?

Since this is the second note I've received from you, I am calling on you to make your "accusations" in a forum that puts as much light on you as it does the accused. Either send me your name & phone number so we can have direct dialog like a Christian brother or stop sending me or anyone in the "Mosaic Alliance" these notes.

If you are actually a believer in Christ (which I question at this point), You would be interested in speaking the truth in love so as to bring a reconciliation before the Cross. I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to do just that.

In Christ Alone,

Tim"

Sadly, notice a couple of tactics that are similar to Mosaic:1. An unwillingness to address what is posted at MOP. 2. Questioning if a "believer in Christ" could actually choose to expose a group for their abuses of power and abuses of finances.

I don't know who oversees the finances at Mosaic or if their is an accountability structure, but one way to get out of this mess is to just ask for forgiveness and return the money to those who gave and beieved in the "impossible dream". (I guess it was an impossible dream)Scripture it talks about giving back 7 fold, you may want to offer this to those brothers and sisters you mislead. Just a little advice. MH

Annonymous,Do you really believe we don't have support from some of the names you mentioned? The wall is falling brother. And who called Erwin a crazed tyrant, some of you volunteer staff are your worst enemies. Or maybe someone from the list you provided has shared Erwin is a crazed tyrant, I don't know and I don't get it. Please quote us correctly, more importantly why don't you just pass on some of the questions we've shared. And those who have done so, good job, your on the right track. And remember even Jim Jones had strong leaders around him. There's time, don't swallow the kool-aid. NOT THEE MOP MEMBER--Just a mop member

Obviously the creation of a blog (MOP) about this problem has not been enjoyable for any of us. However, I believe it has been necessary, and still is. I would assume that there are many from both sides of this issue that have questioned why this should be done so publicly? We could discuss that one for a long time to come, the fact is, it has happened.

I know that the “anonymous factor” has been a lightning rod for the discussion (I admit I have commented this way at times, too.) I would like to offer an additional forum for continued transparent discussion to occur. As well, the dividing line that has naturally occurred between those that attended Mosaic, and those that still do, to be put aside.

I have begun a new blog site that will only allow registered and identified users to comment. Hopefully, this can be a “safe” place to go a little deeper into the issues, without the need for attacking one another.

If you are interested, please e-mail me your real name with an e-mail address I can reply to. I will send you an an invite to the blog. I will confirm each user and moderate all comments.

Eddie Marshall

Guidelines:

1. Must use your real name (first & last) with confirmable e-mail address.

2. A genuine desire to see a resolution to this problem.

3. Understand that if you are disrespectful I will not be able to post your comment (I will e-mail anyone as to the reason why – they can edit and re-submit.)

A blog that only allows "invited" members doesn't have a "link" - anyone that requests to be included in the blog needs to send me an e-mail with their full name and an e-mail address that I can use to "invite" them with.

Eddie Marshall

P.S. The purpose of the "Resolution" blog is not to replace MOP - it is for those that only feel comfortable asking and answering questions with their names attached.

To clarify. The "Resolution" blog is to keep us on topic, which has not changed - the abuses by an individual and a group.

The "Resolution" blog is to shine the light even more directly on the issue, not take it off. I know those that have had to moderate MOP have struggled with what comments they would approve, and those comments that were consistently in question were from "anonymous" users.

In addition, I hope that we can be even more transparent, knowing that only those involved with this issue will be reading and commenting on the "Resolution" blog.

I just saw the video "Retro Mosaic" and I was deeply moved. It made me grateful for all that we had at Brady. Thank you Lord, for the ministry of people like Brother Tom, Brian Petersen, Chris Crossan, Eddie Marshall and there are so many others. I know it's been hard for some to find a great church but let's thank God for what we had. It's a great blessing.

I also enjoyed the video "Retro Mosiac" (however I am not to fond of the name). It was great to see all those faces again, I even think I saw my dad in there a couple of times! I agree, we were blessed, we were all brought there for a purpose.

I was able to find the video through Rubens Reviews, on Print the Legend, when I clicked on Believeing the Impossible. I didn't think we were stuck in a 70's groove either, huh, well anyways, Ruben you did a great job.

Can some one at Mosaic please explain "The Perils of Ayden." http://www.erwinmcmanus.com/stories

I'm truly confused. Is this based on biblical principles? These stories are quite disturbing, not to mention the illustrations. I'm starting to wonder if anyone questions anything anymore. Or are these stories dismissed with the other "mystic" stuff. Its strange that MOP members are the ones investigating and questioning.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1John 4:1

The Perils of Ayden is what happens when a writer believes they are something they are not. As in the case of E.R. McManus thinking he is the next C.S. Lewis. Bad writing begets confusion. Confusion begets questions. Questions beget? Well, in this case MOP.

I'm a BIG fan of fantasy literature but I have to say, this isn't cutting it for me. There is very little that is "original" about it and most of it is just a string of loosely connected "New Age" sounding platitudes. In the secular world of fantasy lit publishing, I doubt this would get any serious notice.

Kimja67, I agree with your questioning. Aside from a passing reference or two to God (the Presence?) and a bible verse at the end, there is very little that is "biblical" about this story.

I could ignore that if it were being presented as a straight forward "fantasy" piece, BUT...this is the "Official Mosaic Alliance" website!

klMosaic Alliance--Is an interesting site--You just picture Jesus turning tables on this one---http://www.mosaicalliance.com/connect.html

The Mission:culture of entrepreneurship, activism, innovation, authenticity, and creativity within your local church and around the world. We are looking for movement leaders who just don't want to get something out of the Alliance but want to put something into it. Our hope is that the Alliance would accelerate the mission of Christ as we work together to accomplish the dreams and visions that God has placed in our hearts as we strive to reach those who don't know him. Join us in our efforts to create the future - there are three great opportunities below, so let us know what your commitment level is going to be.

Level 1--Your an explorer (No fee for this level-Sounds good so far)One of the benefits to this level is that the Subscriber gets the opportunity to subscribe to the Mosaic Podcast.

Level 2--Explorer--$200clamsBut your added to the mosaic map. (This is not made up kids)--To be fair--you also get access to exclusive training and in depth dialogue. (I believe this means you may talk to the man they call Mr. Insight--And I'm not talking about Erwin.)

Level 3--200 clams and a commitment to invest 5% of their church's annual church budget.(Now its not funny any more--This is just simply wrong--This site is just crying for Ruben to write an expose.) There are other throw-ins like discounts to the Mosaic Alliance Newsletter and the eligibility to host a Yelo Experience. Now who can't resist that. Now here's the frightful part, there are churches who are actually on the mosaic map. Lord heal our church MH

I think there are over 200 churches in the alliance. Almost every New Zealand Vineyard church has joined the alliance and has become Mosaic churches. I think this is similar to the Willow Creek Association, right? Anyhow, it is growing at an alarming rate. Almost too fast for comfort.

This may be off the subject but I’m not sure where else I can post this.If anyone from mosaic staff wishes to contact me they can e-mail me directly: heydavidtorres@yahoo.com.Any messages to this e-mail address will be kept private and not posted publicly. This email address is temporary and is for this purpose only.

I don't understand. I would assume most people on here are believers of Christ because the discussion is over a church, right? SO, what is the purpose here? The mission statment says: "Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders (where responsible) and lead pastor Erwin McManus". Is this really what Christianity is about? What about grace, mercy, forgivness, and humility? I could understand if you wanted restitution and repentance, but if you are calling for resignation, I think the thing you really want is revenge. I am thankful I already have a relationship with Christ because if I were a seeker, this whole thing would turn me off to Christianity all together.

I don't understand. I would assume most people on here are believers of Christ because the discussion is over a church, right? SO, what is the purpose here? The mission statment says: "Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders (where responsible) and lead pastor Erwin McManus". Is this really what Christianity is about? What about grace, mercy, forgivness, and humility? I could understand if you wanted restitution and repentance, but if you are calling for resignation, I think the thing you really want is revenge. I am thankful I already have a relationship with Christ because if I were a seeker, this whole thing would turn me off to Christianity all together.

And so would the Bible, because Paul named names and specific sins in the Epistles, insisting that the offenders be dealt with. Yes, forgiveness, grace, etc...are very important, so why not just let the Jim Bakers, Jimmy Swagarts, etc...keep their ministries, too?

Annonymous,This discussion is not about a church. Its about a man who has mistreated leaders and staff. Resignation would be appropriate. This is a man who headed up a building program, but decided to use the money to bail out another church, without telling his flock about the misuse of funds. this is where the restitution comes in. Now the toughest part is repentance. Because if you know Erwin like we do. You know that's a tall order. Its hard for him to admit wrong--Its got to come from the heart. Its got to come from God. And I'm sorry you feel that this is all about revenge. If that was true, then he must have done something wrong to receive this revenge. So you must know him as well. And yes if I was a new Christian and really knew what was going on at Mosaic, I'd be turned off as well. And I'm sure if you go back and look at the post, you would be sick as well. MH

"This is a man who headed up a building program, but decided to use the money to bail out another church, without telling his flock about the misuse of funds."

How is helping others a misuse of funds? I give my money to Mosaic. And when I give it, I a pray God will direct it where it needs to go. Whether that is Chino or China.

"Now the toughest part is repentance. Because if you know Erwin like we do. You know that's a tall order. Its hard for him to admit wrong--Its got to come from the heart. Its got to come from God."

Maybe it's not an apology from Erwin that needs to come from God, but the healing of your hurt. I've been hurt by a lot of people that never said sorry, sometimes they didn't even know they hurt me. But isn't that what God is for?

"And I'm sorry you feel that this is all about revenge. If that was true, then he must have done something wrong to receive this revenge."

Does it matter if they did something wrong or not? Would someone admitting fault really do something? Would him resigning do anything? What would that do for people who's lives are affected by his ministry?

"And yes if I was a new Christian and really knew what was going on at Mosaic, I'd be turned off as well."

It's not what did or didn't happen at Mosaic that is turing me off to Christianity. It's how "Christians" are fighting with each other. Do you think this is how Jesus invisioned his followers interacting?

You are not the first and probably not the last to ask such a strange question. Lately this type of question confirms the fact that Erwin has created a place where confronting and questioning him is simply not to be done. Please think about your question and what it implies. Should we ever question leaders? Should we ever ask for someone to step down when they refuse to do right? Should we ever try and break unhealthy patterns of abuse that exist? If I were to act as you have suggested then I guess I would stick my head in the sand and hope for the best. Please tell me this really is not what you are suggesting when many of us see some real problems.

What about grace, mercy, forgiveness, and humility? I could understand if you wanted restitution and repentance, but if you are calling for resignation, I think the thing you really want is revenge.

This is simply not true. The resignation is being called for because Erwin has done a lot of damage and therefore it is justified. If there was repentance and there was restitution then there was sin. If this is the case, resignation is in line. I in no way want revenge and believe this statement is an effort by you to deflect from the real issues.

I am thankful I already have a relationship with Christ because if I were a seeker, this whole thing would turn me off to Christianity all together.

I on the other hand think that if Christians would take action against abusive leaders then Non-Christians would see that we hold each other accoutable, and yes even if it means we will discipline an influential leader, so be it. We have many examples, even in the last few years, where a church refuses to take action against it's leaders and the issue only grows and festers. This is happening with Mosaic. I have personally written, called and tried to confront Erwin when he did wrong to me. I was shut down. He hides behind whomever he can so that he cannot be confronted.

"This is a man who headed up a building program, but decided to use the money to bail out another church, without telling his flock about the misuse of funds."

How is helping others a misuse of funds? I give my money to Mosaic. And when I give it, I a pray God will direct it where it needs to go. Whether that is Chino or China.

Either you have not been tracking this blog, or you are intentionally trying to dismiss the obvious. The statement concerns "Believe The Impossible" - where funds were collected to buy a building in Los Angeles, so Chino nor China would qualify.

"Now the toughest part is repentance. Because if you know Erwin like we do. You know that's a tall order. Its hard for him to admit wrong--Its got to come from the heart. Its got to come from God."

Maybe it's not an apology from Erwin that needs to come from God, but the healing of your hurt. I've been hurt by a lot of people that never said sorry, sometimes they didn't even know they hurt me. But isn't that what God is for?

What you want to do with the incorrect and wrong behavior of leaders that you know, is up to you, but please don't have anything to do with anyone I love and care for.

"And I'm sorry you feel that this is all about revenge. If that was true, then he must have done something wrong to receive this revenge."

Does it matter if they did something wrong or not? Would someone admitting fault really do something? Would him resigning do anything? What would that do for people who's lives are affected by his ministry?

Someone abusing their power having to resign would accomplish two very important things. 1. Keep them from continuing that behavior at the expense of future innocents. 2. Send a message that it is not acceptable when the flock entrusts themselves to others leadership, for those leaders to take advantage of that position.

Additionally, there are many ministers that have GREAT ministries but have abused their power and have needed to step down; regardless of their other "fruits". Bad argument and flawed logic.

"And yes if I was a new Christian and really knew what was going on at Mosaic, I'd be turned off as well."

It's not what did or didn't happen at Mosaic that is turing me off to Christianity. It's how "Christians" are fighting with each other. Do you think this is how Jesus invisioned his followers interacting?

This is not a fight. This is a discussion about some very difficult things that one of the leaders within Christianity has been allowed to get away with.

all too often the Mosaic side likes to "name-call". ... why are those from the "church" side the ones with the mouths?"

Like who? Carrie Arcos? Jimmy Duke? Eric Bryant? Laura Oronoz? Oh, I forgot -- they're the ones who posted emails asking you guys to get in touch with them.

Now are are we talking about the Carrie Arcos who asked Robbie to take her (not thought out) post off from his blog. Or Dave Arcos who went visiting Robbie late at night unannounced and gave him a not so friendly phone call a day later. Or Jimmy Duke who wanted to meet with Cris and Eddie, but later checked with Eric and became a messanger instead of someone who really wanted to hear the concerns from these brothers. And Eric, well he means well, well I would like to believe that. He takes his orders from a higher entity, and I don't mean God. That's your hall of fame, Yikes A confused MOP memberP.S. We'll meet when there is a mediator and an open to the public meeting. But let me tell you, Erwin doesn't want this, he doesn't want all that dirty laundry out, its safe in that back room, but everything eventually comes out, at least that's what my bible says.

"P.S. We'll meet when there is a mediator and an open to the public meeting. But let me tell you, Erwin doesn't want this, he doesn't want all that dirty laundry out, its safe in that back room, but everything eventually comes out, at least that's what my bible says."

You guys made it abundantly clear -- and it's posted on this site for a matter of record -- that you would refuse to meet at any meeting under any circumstances that did not have the resignation of Erwin as its chief priority. You have no other goals. Under such a narrowly-defined mission, I'm not surprised that no one from Mosaic would meet with you.

And sorry, posting "Erwin's doing a lot of damage, so our calling for his resignation is justified" doesn't exactly hold water when it's the same half-dozen people (ex-members from a decade ago) who post.

I am someone considering an internship at Mosaic, and found this link from Wikipedia. Over the past hour I scaned these postings. While I have not read every single post I did read close to half, and did NOT see any scripture in anything said. I saw on page 1 a person who gave a poorly used link regarding his defense that this page is not gossip, and on that link it showed scripture. If you read in detail you would see that it only permits correcting of a pastor if you come from a position of humility. Acts 23:3-5 shows a clear cut case that even if a religious leader is out of line you still do not call him out publically. Paul new the Old Test. better any just about any of us and let us not forget that he WROTE most of the New Test. That said there is NO excuse to rail against scripture. There are a million churches out there. If you do not call Mosaic home any longer then do no hold hate in your heart. MOVE ON! If you are still at Mosaic then clearly the governing model that is setup within this church is not affording you the voice that you feel you should have, and maybe you should consider a different church home that will. A website like this breaks my heart. You people are all clearly hurting, but in venting this way you are bringing damage to the Gospel. Some of you may want to say that Mosaic is damaging the Gospel, and to me that is not the issue here. If a house is on fire are we to set the whole city a'blaze? NO... Regardless of your hurt I ask not in a cocky fashion, but with a humble heart the bleeds to see the Gospel lived out by Christians and poured out into the world, that you would end this blog. Dropping pride, picking up forgiveness, and giving more of yourselves to love the unreached places and less to anger, hate, and frustration that is dwelling within. How much greater would the name of Christ be without this page. Imagine all the energy that went into designing it, and all the energy that has gone into all these posts combined...now imagine if we took all that energy and passion and put it to work to further the Gospel! It would be beautiful!!!!!

For those of you who are my brothers and sisters in Christ I love you, and I pray that the Lord keep you, and that He sheds PEACE on you.

For those of you reading this who are not Christians please accept my, "I'm Sorry", for you seeing anything beyond the love that Jesus has for you on this page and others like it. Jesus is Love above all things and He is filled with peace, patience, kindness, self-control, goodness, faithfullness, gentleness,and more love. Galations 5:22-23

"P.S. We'll meet when there is a mediator and an open to the public meeting. But let me tell you, Erwin doesn't want this, he doesn't want all that dirty laundry out, its safe in that back room, but everything eventually comes out, at least that's what my bible says."

You guys made it abundantly clear -- and it's posted on this site for a matter of record -- that you would refuse to meet at any meeting under any circumstances that did not have the resignation of Erwin as its chief priority. You have no other goals. Under such a narrowly-defined mission, I'm not surprised that no one from Mosaic would meet with you."

You are right, resignation is needed.

"And sorry, posting "Erwin's doing a lot of damage, so our calling for his resignation is justified" doesn't exactly hold water when it's the same half-dozen people (ex-members from a decade ago) who post."

And I can tell you when I began this journey in L.A. fifteens years ago I was just an attender at Mosaic. It wasn't called Mosaic then, it had a different name. It was called The Church on Brady, which actually had a legal name of "First Southern Baptist Church of East Los Angeles (audience laughter). That's a beautifully relevant name, isn't it? (audience laughter) And I was just an attender there, and the pastor asked me if I would consider taking over the congregation–or leading the congregation.

Erwin was INVITED to Brady. I remember the day he showed up. He was not just an “attender” there. He was introduced to the tiny, handful of irrelevant people who came to church that Sunday. In fact, I believe he was introduced to all of the invalid instruments of God in all three services, possibly even the Saturday evening service. Attender? This guys a writer?- Jay Parker

This part on Wikipedia is the most telling, "McManus was employed in the late 1980s and early 1990s by the Southern Baptist Convention (Home Mission Board) to facilitate struggling churches in replacing "outdated" stagnant leadership teams with "younger" and "fresher" thinkers."

Do you know what that means? It means that he and his brother Alex would go into Southern Baptist Churches and help the Elders vote out the Senior Pastor to replace him with a younger one.

Because anger, bitterness, hatred, slander -- you know, stuff that violates all the fruits of the Holy Spirit -- annoy me when they come from the mouths of believers, and when they're broadcast as gospel truth.

"It looks like wikepedia may have finally gotten it right."

Yes, one can only wonder who helped them see the light, especially with MosaicOfPain's website link right on the front page.

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "MOP Comments (Page 4)":

Wikepedia Intern Member,You may want to read all the post. Scripture has been posted. No railing against scripture here. And your scripture-Acts 23:3 is clear, but not the way you used it. Paul was on trial for his life. He knew who the High Priest was (remember he was a Pharisee), he was wise to apologize because he knew that his enemies (the priest) were ready to find fault in him. And I believe Jesus would be a better example for you. Jesus called the pharisees a brood of vipers (Matt 12:34. So can you question leaders. Yes--You must. When something has gone rotten you have to cut it off. And by the way there really is no need to represent the Christian Church--No apology is needed. You may want to apologize for getting in the way of revealing truth. How can we sit by when emergent leaders like Erwin is misleading the flock. I won't keep quiet about this viper.

P.S. I'm truly sorry that you bring up hate and forgiveness. You truly haven't read these posts. We have formers pastors missionaries and leaders that attended Mosaic who will no longer sit back and shut up. Sometimes you just have to do the right thing. This anger and hate you bring up is not what we're about. Brother you may want to pray about your decision about joining Mosaic. Be wise in these troublesome times. Also, which half dozen posters are you talking about? There have been over a couple dozen posters. Many of the visitors are supporters, including some at Mosaic (But don't tell anybody). They may not post, but they know how to encourage us with email and phone calls. MH

"Gal5:15 - And sorry, posting "Erwin's doing a lot of damage, so our calling for his resignation is justified" doesn't exactly hold water when it's the same half-dozen people (ex-members from a decade ago) who post."

It would not matter if it was only ONE PERSON and 20 years ago speaking the truth. Truth is truth and it will always find its way to the surface. Truth can not, and should never be, silenced.

Erwin was "voted" in a decade ago. Many stayed around for two to four years. So, that would make it more like, members from 6 - 8 years ago. And, there are many on here that were still at Mosaic less than 5 years ago. Still, the question is, "Why now?" Guess we'll have to ask God that one.

okay first of all, if erwin is the problem then everyone from MOP is to blame. After all, you guys allowed this man to enter your church and take the role as lead pastor. How I see it, it was the original members of Church on Brady that allowed this to happen. didn't anyone even bother to check him out or were you all "enchanted" by his charisma? Did you at least checkout his theology and personal beliefs? If he is this bad, this should have been stopped in 1997, NOT 2007. You guys (Frank, Cris, Yvonne, Robbie, etc) are the ones that failed Brother Tom and the rest of the congregation. due diligence. guard your house!!!

okay first of all, if erwin is the problem then everyone from MOP is to blame. After all, you guys allowed this man to enter your church and take the role as lead pastor. How I see it, it was the original members of Church on Brady that allowed this to happen. didn't anyone even bother to check him out or were you all "enchanted" by his charisma? Did you at least checkout his theology and personal beliefs? If he is this bad, this should have been stopped in 1997, NOT 2007. You guys (Frank, Cris, Yvonne, Robbie, etc) are the ones that failed Brother Tom and the rest of the congregation. due diligence. guard your house!!!

Steve,Members of MOP post for one or all of three reasons. The behavior of the lead pastor with staff and former members, the mishandling of financing and the emergent theology. I post because of my concern for not only Mosaic, but the church as a whole. The Emergent Movement is real and very deceptive. And Erwin may not even believe he's part of it, but his words and actions shout EMERGING. Regarding your concern that no one spoke up in 93, well Erwin hadn't made poor decisions with finances yet. Emerging was not part of the christian discourse. And Erwin hadn't treated members of his team unfairly or poorly. I guess you could say Erwin hadn't fully evolved, in lack of finding a better term. I believe if you had the vote today, with the members in 93. You would find a different result. We just didn't have a crystal ball. But I will plead guilty anyway. I will speak on my concerns on the Emergent Church until the cows come home, but not because of my poor decision in 93.Jacob Aguilar

Could someone list out in a couple of simple as possible points what happened? I truly want to know the concerns are with Erwin, what's up with Mr. Martinez, the building fund, etc. There is so much information to pour over at these sites, I'm having a hard time pulling it all together. I go to Mosaic, and this concerns me greatly. I'd like to understand to the depths what is going on here from your standpoint, before I talk to someone at Mosaic. I had NO IDEA any of this was going on. If it's possible, simplified/bullet points, would really help me. I am sorry you guys have been so hurt. I know how much church abuse destroys. Hang in there.

Yes, I voted Erwin in. I trusted Bro. Tom's judgement and I was impressed by Erwin's public speaking abilities. I slowly began to see problems.. I addressd the issues I saw with Gerardo Marti and Robert Martinez. I met with Erwin three diferent times. I left in 1998 when I realized that I could not minister there effectively any longer.Now, I still see isues/problems and I want to help the body.I have tried and tried and tried to initiate communication with Erwin to no avail....

Could someone list out in a couple of simple as possible points what happened? I truly want to know the concerns are with Erwin, what's up with Mr. Martinez, the building fund, etc. There is so much information to pour over at these sites, I'm having a hard time pulling it all together. I go to Mosaic, and this concerns me greatly. I'd like to understand to the depths what is going on here from your standpoint, before I talk to someone at Mosaic. I had NO IDEA any of this was going on. If it's possible, simplified/bullet points, would really help me. I am sorry you guys have been so hurt. I know how much church abuse destroys. Hang in there."

Dear confused mosaic attender:

Thank you for your question and words of encouragement. I personally want to say that when I was at Church on Brady (the name of Mosaic previously) I received a letter that was sent to all of the members from an upset leader and it was very difficult to read, but God got me through it. I approached it, as you are with MOP (open eyes and ears) and God grew my faith through it.

You will probably get a number of replies to your inquiry, since there have been very few who have come here from Mosaic with your sincerity.

In short, there were many (20 to 30) leaders during The Church on Brady days that did all they could to embrace the change of pastors from Bro Thom to Erwin. That began in the early 90's and is obviously still going on to this day. The majority of those 20 to 30 leaders have left over the past 15 years and have done so with the humble intentions of moving on.

Unfortunately, from our perspective, God would not allow us to just "move on".

For me, the problem began with how Carol Davis was removed and then Thomas Wolf. Both were forced to leave their ministry and fellowship without their agreeing to do so.

Next, the way that Erwin and the elders handled those decisions were not what many of us were accustom to. There were very few questions answered, and when they were it was done with carefully chosen words to not permit an on-going dialog.

Further, the members that did attempt to ask questions were shunned and opposed. Even to the point of being removed from leadership roles. (This is happening right now with some current members, as well.)

I encourage you to stay at the church God has taken you to. However, ask questions. Ask with an honest and humble heart. The answers you are given pray about and compare to scripture.

I went to the church with all of my questions, and they were all answered. In fact, they were more transparent than I had expected. I encourage everyone from Mosaic to do the same. There is alot of the story not being told here, I couldn't believe it!

It also has become VERY clear over the past few weeks that most MOP members have no idea what Mosaic is like now. Erwin isn't the tyrant of everything that people make him out to be. In fact, people should go to Eric Bryant more than Erwin if they have a problem with Mosaic.

Oh well. I am sure I will be told now that I am brain washed or unsympathetic.

There is alot of the story not being told here, I couldn't believe it!

Anonymous, this isn't the first time we've heard this statement so I'm just going to get right to the point: WHAT STORY?

MOP has been very SPECIFIC in telling "it's side of the story" but all we ever hear from the "other side" is how MOP has got it all wrong; yet NO ONE has been willing to say how the stories differ!

Your statement "There is alot of the story not being told here, I couldn't believe it!" is meaningless until you fill in the blanks about what is so "unbelievable."

It also has become VERY clear over the past few weeks that most MOP members have no idea what Mosaic is like now. Erwin isn't the tyrant of everything that people make him out to be. In fact, people should go to Eric Bryant more than Erwin if they have a problem with Mosaic.

I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you jumped into these discussions without first reading through all the posts from beginning to end but I find that very hard to do.

I know people who still attend Mosaic to this day, in fact; some of those people are LEADERS at Mosaic. Are you trying to tell me that these leaders don't know what's happening at their own church?

If you are genuinely interested in getting an "unfiltered" story from the leadership at Mosaic, I urge you to do what I've been urging everyone to do: TALK TO ALL OF THE ELDERS!!!! All five of them, not just one or two.

Thanks Eddie for your answer. If you could clarify one thing for me that would be great. When Tom Wolf and Carol Davis were removed was there any type of congregational vote that took place? I'm not sure how the governing in the SBC denomination lays out. I know we aren't a "voting" type church now. My husband and I are taking your thoughts seriously, I appreciate your honesty in the matter.

Anonymous,

I'm glad you got your questions answered. There are always two sides to the story. And yes, Mosaic is a great church now,(not perfect at all, and I agree with some that it lacks discipleship), but that doesn't mean that these people here aren't truly hurt by how they've been treated. It also doesn't mean that Erwin didn't make mistakes. I find the way that Erwin has written things leaves out some important history to this church, and that is hurtful.

As the body of Christ we need to be more supportive. Spiritual Abuse is one of those things that cripples people emotionally. In my research and experience, many "abusers" don't have a clue as to the power of their words and actions. That doesn't make them less responsible for their actions. I just means that Erwin may not be setting out to do damage by his actions, but regardless damage has been done. But, I won't even try to speak for Erwin. I don't even know him.

Anonymous,I'm still a little confused why you and others from Mosaic still use words like tyrant, brain-washed and unsympathetic. I don’t believe we’ve used these words (please cite when posting). And if you have information for us regarding questions posed on this site, please share them, because we haven't received them from Mosaic's leadership. You are doing a disservice to the church and to MOP by withholding information. I personally think its great you've asked questions. But you would be more credible if you would share that information instead of casting assertions on us. So you could see my confusion. MH

I am confused. You guys haven't talked with Mosaic about this issue? You are encouraging people to ask them question, but you haven't even asked them yourselves? How does that work. Even if you are hurt or it hasn't worked in the past, I still think it is you duty to go to them any try once more before you go public with it.

I didn't quote anyone in my post. It's just that many of you have said that Erwin runs everything, he makes all the calls, he is the one responsible for all the pain. You (MOP) have basically said that Eric Bryant is his hit man. Sounds pretty tyrannical to me. You (MOP) have made references to people "drinking kool-aid" when they try to tell their other side of the story. Sounds alot like an accusation of brainwashing, huh

Thanks Eddie for your answer. If you could clarify one thing for me that would be great. When Tom Wolf and Carol Davis were removed was there any type of congregational vote that took place? I'm not sure how the governing in the SBC denomination lays out. I know we aren't a "voting" type church now. My husband and I are taking your thoughts seriously, I appreciate your honesty in the matter.

Actually, myself and my family were in Japan during Carol's time & Hawaii during Bro Thom's, so I can only answer from what we were told after the fact (by them and the elders). The vote took place within the elder group, not the congregation. From what I understand about how the SBC operates, that is fine.

I appreciate you and your husband honestly dealing with this (and I do not mean you have to agree with us). Just the fact that you are stating the obvious gives me a modicum of relief that there still are members at Mosaic who want to know the truth.

By the way, you also mentioned that, "In my research and experience, many "abusers" don't have a clue as to the power of their words and actions." Might I recommend that you read the "Narcissism In The Pulpit" article that has been referenced here. I wish it were not soooo long (30 pages) but it is what it is. And it is very revealing. You can link to it from the front page of MOP.

Best,

Eddie Marshall

P.S. The way you are handling your anonymity is exemplary of how MOP intended it to be. You have a “screen name” so we do not get confused with many different “anonymous” posters, and you are asking genuine questions. Thanks.

As far as the "Believe the Impossible" campaign funds going toward a building debt at Mosaic Inland, how was the information presented? Did you guys hear about it from someone, was there a meeting that took place, did something leak from an elder meeting? Simply put, and I mean no disrespect, how do you guys know about this? I've heard nothing regarding it, but then again, I wasn't around back in the day of the campaign. I also have read that some people have been paid back money they gave. Was there a letter or anything mailed out to the givers of the campaign? Curious, and still gathering my information. This concerns me as well, is this something that is legal for a non-profit organization to do?

Anonymous said... I am confused. You guys haven't talked with Mosaic about this issue? You are encouraging people to ask them question, but you haven't even asked them yourselves? How does that work. Even if you are hurt or it hasn't worked in the past, I still think it is you duty to go to them any try once more before you go public with it.

I didn't quote anyone in my post. It's just that many of you have said that Erwin runs everything, he makes all the calls, he is the one responsible for all the pain. You (MOP) have basically said that Eric Bryant is his hit man. Sounds pretty tyrannical to me. You (MOP) have made references to people "drinking kool-aid" when they try to tell their other side of the story. Sounds alot like an accusation of brainwashing, huh

I approved this comment but I am going to stop approving such comments in the near future. If someone makes an anonymous comment on either side of the argument that doesn’t help the conversation then I am going reject it. There are a few reasons why I will not be approving these types of comments:

1. It is VERY difficult to track this type of comment in the discussion because it is anonymous. At minimum you need to create a screen name so that we can track the discussion. First and last name would be even better.

2. This person, and others like him/her, are making statements that MOP members are way off base in some of our actions and thinking but is not providing examples of how they believe we are wrong. If you are going to state something is a lie or untrue or make an argument then please state your reasons why, give examples, let us know whom you talked too, what you remember, how you know it is different. We need something more than this generic "we are wrong and you are right."

3. We are trying to move forward with this discussion. I believe 90% of the comments on both sides of argument have been productive but I am going to work on getting rid of those that causes us to go in circles. Believe it or not, our hope is that there is resolution to all of this and so far I believe these comment sections are helping.

Please know that the main purpose to this comment section of MOP is for productive discussion. My intent is not to point the finger at those that counter MOP but rather to say that I choose to move forward and do not believe these types of comments help either side, especially if they are made anonymously. If you have any questions or would like to challenge this decision please feel free to email me.

Cris Aguilarcrisraguilar@gmail.com

Also don’t forget to check out Resolution. Another step towards a resolution.

You say you will only comment on Erwin's "lies, double talk and distortion of scripture"? Make sure you don't quote something out of context. The quote "Christianity as a religion is no better than any other religion." is something that Erwin has said many times. What Erwin is referring to here is the religious rituals not the personal faith aspect of Christianity. Jesus didn't die on the cross for us to simply follow religious traditions that developed over time, he died on the cross so we could have a personal relationship with him. Maybe Erwin doesn't really say it clearly enough, especially when this is quoted as a one sentence reflection of who Erwin is. You really need to listen to the context surrounding specific quotes.

Confused mosaic attender, let me try and answer your questions from my knowledge. I am probably off (possibly way off) on parts of this so I am hoping someone will correct me where I am wrong. The info that has come forward has been bits and pieces so I am not totally sure where BTI stands.

As far as the "Believe the Impossible" campaign funds going toward a building debt at Mosaic Inland, how was the information presented? Did you guys hear about it from someone, was there a meeting that took place, did something leak from an elder meeting?

I do not believe Mosaic has made any public statements about BTI to the membership as a whole but rather to a group of approx 40 leaders, around 20 days ago. This is when they announced they would be buying the Chino church and spending the rest to renovate a rented building in Pasadena.

Simply put, and I mean no disrespect, how do you guys know about this? I've heard nothing regarding it, but then again, I wasn't around back in the day of the campaign.

If you mean how do we know about BTI then I can tell you I was apart of the BTI team. I took part in putting on a very specific fundraising campaign to raise money to buy a church building, yes I mean real-estate, in Los Angeles. This campaign was launched in the center of Los Angels, Union Station. Please read at the top of this page "MOP Comments (Page 4) for some working found on the Believe The Impossible brochure (1997).

I also have read that some people have been paid back money they gave. Was there a letter or anything mailed out to the givers of the campaign? This concerns me as well, is this something that is legal for a non-profit organization to

I have talked to 2 people first hand that have received their BTI monies back. It’s my understanding that they asked for their money in writing and a they received it a short while later. Maybe they could post more detailed info here about their experience.

I have not heard that Mosaic have sent out any type of letter to all that gave to this campaign. I do not know what the legal implications are for Mosaic for asking money for a very specific purpose and then using that money for a different reason.

Legalities aside, this is an absolute abuse and immoral. People gave way beyond, they were asked to dig deep. They were asked to sell off property, family heirlooms and not to forget to add them to their will. And guess what, those irrelevant, old backward thinking, still singing 70’s Christian songs Brady members gave their money. They gave sacrificially. Imagine that. I am sorry for my part in that campaign.

I hope this helps a bit. Maybe there are others that have more specific info or correct me where I am wrong.

You say you will only comment on Erwin's "lies, double talk and distortion of scripture"? Make sure you don't quote something out of context. The quote "Christianity as a religion is no better than any other religion." is something that Erwin has said many times. What Erwin is referring to here is the religious rituals not the personal faith aspect of Christianity. Jesus didn't die on the cross for us to simply follow religious traditions that developed over time, he died on the cross so we could have a personal relationship with him. Maybe Erwin doesn't really say it clearly enough, especially when this is quoted as a one sentence reflection of who Erwin is. You really need to listen to the context surrounding specific quotes.

Anonymous,

Maybe you can straighten us out on the "Christianity as a religion is no better than any other religion." quote. How about you put it in context? Find the place where Erwin has used it correctly and quote a sentence or two before and after that make that statement clear and a uplifting thing to say. Rather than derogatory and a cheap and easy way to get attention.

You did admit, "Maybe Erwin doesn't really say it clearly enough, especially when this is quoted as a one sentence reflection of who Erwin is." So, it well be understandable if you never do straighten us out. Especially since that is a big part of what MOP is about. Us trying to figure out what on earth Erwin Raphael McManus is trying to say, and do?

Thank you so much for your further clarification. I am very concerned, and completely disagree with the handling of the money. I'm also concerned that a group of 40 leaders were informed of this decision, yet, my husband and I weren't. I believe that there needs to be a public disclosure about this, beyond the comments of this blog, that comes from the Mosaic leadership team itself, to the congregation at Mosaic.

Please say a prayer for us, as we consider how to move forward with our concerns. I am tempted to not even try to confront these issues, as it seems that many people are treated poorly when they confront things.

I am also concerned that Erwin has never mentioned in his books or at leadership advance, etc, anything about being willing to purchase a building, let alone the fact that Mosaic at one point set out to buy a building. One of the reasons my husband and I chose Mosaic as home, was because it wasn't centered around a building, and made claims that Church on Brady was sold because of the same reasoning. Sounds like we've been manipulated and lied to. We came from a church that was destroyed by a crazy building program and misuse of funds, and here we go again. I'm just so grieved right now. I think things like this is why Erwin's coined phrase about "Christianity being an enemy to the movement of Jesus Christ" has meaning. Church politics and spiritual abuse is one of those things in Christianity that make people turn away. I wonder if Erwin has considered that his own actions in church have fueled this idea?

I'm am thankful that you are willing to speak in a public forum about this and are putting your names out there, and taking a stand. God Bless You All.

Erwin and Mosaic Staff,

If you are reading this, I may or may not try and talk to you guys about all of this for your explanation. But, regardless of what answers I may or may not get, please think through the possibility of coming clean to your congregation about what's going on right now. Please meet with these men and women who have been wounded. I agree with them, a public forum would be best to give them the opportunity to heal and move on. That's the only way for them to feel safe.

I do believe that God can take care of this. My prayers are dedicated to this now.

God Bless You all, keep the conversations going so I can continue to be informed.

"Maybe you can straighten us out on the 'Christianity as a religion is no better than any other religion.' quote. How about you put it in context? Find the place where Erwin has used it correctly and quote a sentence or two before and after that make that statement clear and a uplifting thing to say."

In a sermon about a year ago, Erwin said (and I wrote it down so I'd remember): "It doesn't matter if you're Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, or Baptist. Everyone needs Jesus." This statement strikes me as a pretty clear sentiment of what Erwin means by the difference between the institution of Christianity and the way of Jesus Christ. (I think we could all agree that we have met Christians who are "Christians" in name only.)

I put my foot in my mouth! In my post I criticized Erwin's use of the word "Attender". Although his statement is a fabrication and totally discounts the great things God did at Brady and minimizes the great things He did through a lot of the Christ loving people there, his use of the word attender was correct. I apologize. From now on I will only comment on Erwin's double talk and distortion of scripture...and stuff like this:

"Christianity as a religion is no better than any other religion." - Erwin McManus

Buddah ate his own feces to gain enlightenment. Christ was tortured and crucified so that we could have eternal life... I'll take Christianity.

First might I suggest that you loose the “confusion” as we all know it only comes from the father of that word, and that is not what this about. MOP hopes to clear up some of the confusion. Maybe, swap it for “concerned” as you have begun to. ; )

Concerning a “building program” I would think it is inevitable for any large group of people that have to amass themselves weekly, they are going to have to get a home building that they can call "home". Sort of a “necessary evil” if you will? Ironically, the Church on Brady had just completed a building program in the early 90’s when Erwin arrived. We all gave, not only financially to that building program, but with our free nights and weekends to help construct the new building. We had been there, seen it, and built it once already. Now, it has been sold. : (

To be honest, I do not know if the BTI program ever clearly stated if it was to purchase land, buy a building, or what? But it is very clear from the BTI brochure, that I have in my possession, that BTI was to extend the ministry into Los Angeles, not San Bernardino County.

Yes, we want a public forum to occur between those on this side of the issue and those at Mosaic, who would like to address our questions. We appreciate your prayers and concern.

"Maybe you can straighten us out on the 'CHRISTIANITY AS A RELIGION IS NO BETTER THAN ANY OTHER RELIGION.' quote. How about you put IT in context? Find the place where Erwin has used IT correctly and quote a sentence or two before and after that make THAT statement clear and a uplifting thing to say."

In a sermon about a year ago, Erwin said (and I wrote it down so I'd remember): "It doesn't matter if you're Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, or Baptist. Everyone needs Jesus." This statement strikes me as a pretty clear sentiment of what Erwin means by the difference between the institution of Christianity and the way of Jesus Christ. (I think we could all agree that we have met Christians who are "Christians" in name only.)

Getting a quote from some Anonymous person's sermon notes about a completely different quote is rather of target, no?

If you are going to come on here and comment, please take it seriously.

Maybe you can straighten us out on the "Christianity as a religion is no better than any other religion." quote. How about you put it in context? Find the place where Erwin has used it correctly and quote a sentence or two before and after that make that statement clear and a uplifting thing to say. Rather than derogatory and a cheap and easy way to get attention. - Anonymous,

Dear Anonymous,I do agree with you by Erwin saying: "Christianity as a religion is no better than any other religion.", may just be his cheap and easy way of getting attention... Unless you're insinuating that that quote was my cheap and easy way of getting attention, it wasn't. That was Erwin's quote. I shouldn't straighten you out on his quote, he said it and it is what it is, and I disagree. While the Christian religion is full of sinners and flawed human beings it's foundation is a pure, solid, bloody rock. That rock makes it better than any other religion in the world.Apparently, Erwin has found a way to trash all over that rock and make it uplifting. I find it offensive. The Christ I follow suffered too much and does to many glorious things to be shoved into the same coffin as the rest. Jay Parker

Yvonne -- nowhere to post on your website, so I guess I'll do so here.

"I am concerned by the information regarding Mosaic L.A. Given the fact that “tax time” is rapidly approaching I can’t help but wonder how this “suspended” status may affect the tax deductions of church members and other donors to Mosaic."

The website you linked to collects information on corporations. Mosaic is a non-profit organization, not a corporation.

As far as Awaken, the Resources arm of Mosaic which currently handles book, CD and DVD sales to its members as well as pastors and leaders around the globe, the "portion of sales" you refer to goes to underwrite the costs of giving away free resources to first-time guests.

"Question??? Should the church become relavent to culture? Mosaic Core value--(Fire)--Relavence to culture is not optional."

Well, Jesus did choose to come to us in the form of a man. That seems to set the precedent for being relevant.

However, Jesus did not compromise the message for the sake of "relevance" and, as a spiritual leader, He made certain that He practiced what He preached.

Another question. Is Mosaic relevant to the wise man, the philosopher, and/or the scholars?

1 Corinthians 1:20-25

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Sorry, can't resist this one:

1 Corinthians 1:26-31

Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.

And lastly. (BTW this is what MOP is really about.)

John 13:35

By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

I know it will be said that MOP is not concerned about the lost because we are opposing a church that wants to be relevant. Oh, RELEVANT? Like when a church makes videos and movies for the lost, I see, that's really relevant (quoting Borat here, sorry)

pause....wait for it

....pause...

NAAAAAAWT!!!

It's the LOVE guys...that's what they're missing...not the relevance...they have that in spades.

"The website you linked to collects information on corporations. Mosaic is a non-profit organization, not a corporation.

As far as Awaken, the Resources arm of Mosaic which currently handles book, CD and DVD sales to its members as well as pastors and leaders around the globe, the "portion of sales" you refer to goes to underwrite the costs of giving away free resources to first-time guests."

Since Yvonne posted her RESEARCH with a name attached...and, you 'Anonymous' did not, and you gave ZERO corroborating data (i.e. links, quotes, etc...) I'll believer her version.

Yvonne -- nowhere to post on your website, so I guess I'll do so here.

"I am concerned by the information regarding Mosaic L.A. Given the fact that “tax time” is rapidly approaching I can’t help but wonder how this “suspended” status may affect the tax deductions of church members and other donors to Mosaic."

The website you linked to collects information on corporations. Mosaic is a non-profit organization, not a corporation.

As far as Awaken, the Resources arm of Mosaic which currently handles book, CD and DVD sales to its members as well as pastors and leaders around the globe, the "portion of sales" you refer to goes to underwrite the costs of giving away free resources to first-time guests.

"While the Christian religion is full of sinners and flawed human beings it's foundation is a pure, solid, bloody rock. That rock makes it better than any other religion in the world. Apparently, Erwin has found a way to trash all over that rock and make it uplifting. I find it offensive. The Christ I follow suffered too much and does to many glorious things to be shoved into the same coffin as the rest."

Jay, I love your passion for the church. I actually believe it's one that Erwin shares. He is pretty up-front in his NRB transcript (readily available) where he says: "I, after examining the local church felt it was no longer a valid instrument to really bring cultural transformation. And, and, through a number of things–through God just beating me up–and reminding me how much He loves the church and I need to love the church like he loves the church, next thing I knew I was the pastor of this place." It's pretty clear that God humbled Erwin in his own perspective of what the church is. His book, "An Unstoppable Force," is all about the church -- about suggesting ways to strengthen it, to help pastors address the needs of a new generation of followers and seekers. So I think you guys would have more in common than you may think.

At the same time, the institution of Christianity can become something of a straightjacket. We can all become pharisees, crippled in self-righteousness, and I think especially in the cultural shift that we are experiencing, Christians can sometimes appear to be on the wrong side of the human equation. Sometimes we can be like the Pharisees -- creating our own forms of godliness while denying their power, creating so many legalistic rules that we are no longer recognizable as people of love. We can't confuse the traditions we have created with the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus risked being identified with those outside the religious traditions of His day, because He saw through those traditions. He did not form new traditions -- in fact, He seemed to spend an awful lot of time thwarting old ones. (Eating and healing on the Sabbath being only two.) He summed up the Law as "Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself." His radical message was "The Kingdom of Heaven is near." His call was simple: "Follow me." (James himself only defines true religion this way: "to look after widows and orphans.") Jesus did not form a new religion -- that would have been too easy. More rules, more commandments, more guilt. Instead, Jesus radically redefined the relationship we could have through Him with God. Which is the more difficult thing?

In your words I hear a passionate devotion to the Christ Who died so we might live. Amen! But let's not confuse the way of Jesus Christ with the religious institution of Christianity. They are often hardly one and the same.

"The website you linked to collects information on corporations. Mosaic is a non-profit organization, not a corporation. "

Would you like to include a link to prove that Mosaic LA IS a non-profit organization where we can see it? I looked online and didn't see Mosaic listed. I'd love for a confirmation.

"As far as Awaken, the Resources arm of Mosaic which currently handles book, CD and DVD sales to its members as well as pastors and leaders around the globe, the "portion of sales" you refer to goes to underwrite the costs of giving away free resources to first-time guests."

Fair enough. Is there a board of directors that is in place for Awaken? If Awaken is connected to Mosaic, is there a financial statement available to prove this?

"As far as Awaken, the Resources arm of Mosaic which currently handles book, CD and DVD sales to its members as well as pastors and leaders around the globe, the "portion of sales" you refer to goes to underwrite the costs of giving away free resources to first-time guests."

If that is true, why is Awaken a "for-profit" corporation? Not a non-profit 501c3?

"Would you like to include a link to prove that Mosaic LA IS a non-profit organization where we can see it? I looked online and didn't see Mosaic listed. I'd love for a confirmation."

According to the IRS website about Publication 78 (the Cumulative List of Organizations described in Section 170(c) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, from which database Yvonne got her information): "Publication 78 is based on information received in applications seeking recognition of exemption under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(3). Churches, their integrated auxiliaries, conventions or associations of churches, and public charities whose annual gross receipts are normally not more than $5,000 may be treated as tax-exempt without filing an application. Also, many churches are included in group exemptions (see below) Thus, they may not be listed in Publication 78."More info is here: http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=150282,00.html

As a church, Mosaic has to function as a non-profit and register with the government. They do not, however, have to be listed as such in Publication 78. As a matter of fact, under the statement above, Global Impact and Awaken doesn't have to be either, if they function as an auxiliary of a church (which Awaken does -- Global Impact may be connected to one of the other churches Erwin has served at, or perhaps Mosaic as well).

As far as Awaken goes, you could always attend one of Mosaic's services. I'm sure they'd be happy to connect you with someone who could answer your questions about how the organization is run.

The issue of money, and how it is used correctly, is a very serious issue. Can't a couple of Mosaic people at least create a screen name (anonymity still there) and maybe answer some of these serious questions? This "I know them and its all good." Doesn't really give much in the way of validity.

And, someone of some merit from Mosaic (that has facts) would be invaluable.

"If that is true, why is Awaken a "for-profit" corporation? Not a non-profit 501c3?"

Why not? Right now Mosaic needs a resources distribution arm, but down the road, artists from Mosaic might want to get their work distributed, and Awaken wants to be able to help get their work out there and actually pay them for it.

"WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE PROCEEDS IS "GIVEN"? 10%? 50%? 100?"

Enough to cover the costs of one full-time employee to duplicate, distribute and address the requests for materials from across the country and around the globe, as well as to cover the costs of distributing free materials to first-time visitors.

Again, you could always go to the Resources table at one of the services and ask to get connected to someone who could answer your questions as well.

"did you know that if anyone from MOP visited a mosaic service they would be escorted out by the police? so, that would be a little difficult, don't you think?"

Not really, since police don't provide security at Mosaic services."

ACTUALLY WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN TOLD THAT MOSAIC HAS SOME OF THEIR "OFF-DUTY" OFFICERS STANDING BY, JUST IN CASE WE SHOW OUR FACES. IRONIC, TOO, SINCE NONE OF US HAVE EVER MADE ANY THREATS OR ANY KIND OF ANGRY WORDS. BUT SOME STAFF HAVE SHOWN UP LATE AT NIGHT - UNANNOUNCED AT ONE OF OUR HOMES.

"The issue of money, and how it is used correctly, is a very serious issue. Can't a couple of Mosaic people at least create a screen name (anonymity still there) and maybe answer some of these serious questions? This "I know them and its all good" doesn't really give much in the way of validity."

On this I absolutely agree. I'm a big fan of financial transparency, and as a current member of Mosaic, I have no problem asking where my money goes, asking about Awaken, etc., and getting straight answers. However, it probably helps that I'm not gunning for the resignation of Mosaic's leadership. It's difficult to build relationships -- or be treated with any legitimacy -- when that's your stated aim.

I hear a lot of sincere questions being asked on this site (as well as some questions that are frankly incendiary). However, since none of the people asking are current Mosaic members (and in some cases, haven't been for quite some time), I'm not sure why Mosaic should be transparent to those who only have suspicion. Would you share your financial statements with someone who is a self-defined enemy of yours?

I've genuinely enjoyed the back and forth we've had tonight. I hope we can keep it going.

"WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN TOLD THAT MOSAIC HAS SOME OF THEIR "OFF-DUTY" OFFICERS STANDING BY, JUST IN CASE WE SHOW OUR FACES."

I'm going to risk this rabbit hole by pointing out that the police offered to provide security in case Mosaic wanted it -- out of a concern that the police had, not Mosaic. Mosaic refused. One Mosaic member, a police officer who was off-duty, offered the leadership some security during that weekend, and did so of his own volition.

"BUT SOME STAFF HAVE SHOWN UP LATE AT NIGHT - UNANNOUNCED AT ONE OF OUR HOMES."

I'm not sure what you're implying. David Arcos, Janice Sakuma, and one other staffer -- (Dave Auda? my memory escapes me) did go to Robbie's place at 9:30 to try to talk to him. If you guys think those three constitute a physical threat, you clearly haven't been to Mosaic in a while. (Unless we're talking about Arcos' breakdancing, which is truly terrifying.)

"If you would give us a personal invite, with your name, so we can say that you have invited us, a couple of us will show up and talk."

Yes, if you look at the "resources" page of Awaken, it's probably a fairly substantial money maker. That is Erwin's right. However, if it is a "for-profit" organization, is it okay for them to operate under the umbrella of a non-profit organization? Bit of a contradiction there, no matter how much they "donate".

"The Primary Aim you are referring to is stated to that purpose that "if" our claims of abuse are found to be accurate then resignation should be the outcome. If these allegations are not, then not."

On your very home page your stated aim is "to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders (where responsible) and lead pastor Erwin McManus..." Your minds are pretty made up on this matter.

"And, yes, no matter how long ago the membership was active, if it involved giving money to BTI then the questions of how it was spent are fair."

No one's saying it isn't. Ex-members who have requested a refund have gotten it. I'm not sure what the ongoing issue here is, but I'm not going to belabor it.

" However, if it is a "for-profit" organization, is it okay for them to operate under the umbrella of a non-profit organization? Bit of a contradiction there, no matter how much they "donate"."

Do you know how much (or how little) Awaken makes? Do you know how much (or how little) Erwin receives from sales? Do you know whether the company actually makes any profit? I'm surprised how quickly you would jump to conclusions without knowing any of the facts.

We will take you up on that invite some Sunday. And, we will give you a notice that we are visiting to talk with the Awaken people.

By the way, didn't "confused mosaic member" ask that original question?

So, can that commenter - that seems to be a mosaic attender already - ask the question and get back to us here?

"As far as Awaken, the Resources arm of Mosaic which currently handles book, CD and DVD sales to its members as well as pastors and leaders around the globe, the "portion of sales" you refer to goes to underwrite the costs of giving away free resources to first-time guests."

Fair enough. Is there a board of directors that is in place for Awaken? If Awaken is connected to Mosaic, is there a financial statement available to prove this?

Do you know how much (or how little) Awaken makes? Do you know how much (or how little) Erwin receives from sales? Do you know whether the company actually makes any profit? I'm surprised how quickly you would jump to conclusions without knowing any of the facts.

The topic of the Primary Aim keeps coming up. Those at Mosaic seem to not "like" this. That is understandable, but if they want it to go away then they just need to deal with the statements that have been made to warrant such a request. Either the leaders at Mosaic need to clearly state that these types of claims about "abuses" do not warrant "repentance" "resignation" and "restitution", or Mosaic needs to prove the claims false. One or the other, because just saying, this is not what we want you guys to do will not change this situation.

They signed a seven-year lease. They're paying to completely overhaul the auditorium. They moved their offices into space at WCIU. They're at Pasadena for the long haul.

Anonymous,

We rent the home we are currently living in. As part of our rental agreement (our landlord is a friend) my family has made improvements to the property because we also intend to be here "for the long haul" and such improvements are mutually beneficial; however, we have no self-delusions about who OWNS the property.

And as far as what Awaken does with their money, do you know the people who run Awaken? Have you ever asked them what they do with the money? I do and I have.

This is great news! I've been trying to figure out who it is that runs Awaken so I'd appreciate it if you could please give me those names so I can contact them myself.

Just so you know, I did not disable the comments on my blog. I'm having trouble with my account settings and haven't been able to fix it yet. I wasn't even aware that the comment function was inoperable until it was mentioned here. Sorry for the inconvenience.

And as far as what Awaken does with their money, do you know the people who run Awaken? Have you ever asked them what they do with the money? I do and I have.

Great --Can you send Awaken's financial statement to cris' email. That will end this conversation topic. Let's get these questions and concerns answered. One by one. Why is it so difficult for Mosaic leadership to give answers? This is a big mess. It appears that there is a push to be as unclear and confusing as possible. This is not acceptable for an influential church like Mosaic. The red flag should be waiving in front of the Southern Baptist Convention. MH

Anonymous said... Isn't Yvonne Robert Martinez's daughter? Wouldn't Robert have an idea about the financial dealing of Mosaic/Awaken? So what's up, Does Robert give his approval of Yvonne's "investigations"? Confused

"Anonymous",

Everything I have written in my latest post, "Non-Profit or Non-Existent", is based on public information I obtained on my own.

The information I posted in "A Revisionist History of the Church on Brady" was a compilation of personal interviews with former and current members of Mosaic along with information I gleaned from the internet. I stated this in the first paragraph.

"Great --Can you send Awaken's financial statement to cris' email. That will end this conversation topic. Let's get these questions and concerns answered. One by one. Why is it so difficult for Mosaic leadership to give answers? This is a big mess."

Mosaic has no problem divulging its financial situation to members who ask. It's very easy for current Mosaic members to get answers to these questions. However, an organization made up of ex-members from nearly a decade ago with an axe to grind has no real right to demand financial transparency. Do you open your financial books to anybody who comes along?

Dear Anonymous ( This is Jay and I'm responding to the person who responded to my post. Can we use names? Even if we have to make one up? This is mind-numbing!),

Thank you for your response. Since the Christian Church began it has gone through many transformations to adapt to different cultures and it always will. I became a Christian in the early 80's, there was no Internet back then, very few people had their own personal computers, to show a video in church on a Sunday would take several days of preparation and would probably cost a fortune in equipment rentals. It would be cultural suicide for any church to go with the attitude of "Jesus didn't have that! We don't need it either!"We just have to make sure we don't fiddle with the foundation of the Church to become socially relevant. Sure, Jesus came in and made massive changes, but that was Jesus. Jesus is the foundation of the Church and like it or not, it is a religion. In your defense of Erwin you've used Jesus as a comparison, is that really valid? Jesus started the Church. Is Erwin starting a "New Church"?I know a lot of people at Mosaic, Christian brothers and sisters who I know have a deep love for Christ. People who, in the past twenty years have been a great ministry to myself and my family, and people I have ministered along side in bringing people closer to our Lord, Jesus Christ. So it is perplexing to me to read and hear the words that come out of Erwin, and find these people standing behind him or at least staying silent, back in the day we all knew better than this.One of the things I was taught as an young Christian that has never let me down is this: "Always test it against the Scripture." Something new may sound good, it may get my motor running, it may make me feel goose pimply all over, it may be the hottest new thing since sliced bread, but if it doesn't hold up with God's Word it ain't worth a thing.In Christ,-Jay Parker

"As far as Awaken goes, you could always attend one of Mosaic's services. I'm sure they'd be happy to connect you with someone who could answer your questions about how the organization is run."

"However, since none of the people asking are current Mosaic members (and in some cases, haven't been for quite some time), I'm not sure why Mosaic should be transparent to those who only have suspicion. Would you share your financial statements with someone who is a self-defined enemy of yours?"

"Mosaic has no problem divulging its financial situation to members who ask. It's very easy for current Mosaic members to get answers to these questions. However, an organization made up of ex-members from nearly a decade ago with an axe to grind has no real right to demand financial transparency. Do you open your financial books to anybody who comes along?"

I am a faithful attender of Mosaic, in fact, just got home from church, which is why I am asking questions. You may be surprised as to who I actually am, but I am not going to go public with my name in this format. My hope is that some honest answers will be given to these people who are hurt, and also be out here on this blog for the future people who are going to be concerned when they read this. These MOP members have definitely brought light to some things that many of us newer Mosaicer's (me 2+ years) are unaware of. I will talk to someone in leadership eventually. I understand this is so ugly and messy. It would be helpful for someone who is in leadership at Mosaic, with a name other than anonymous to answer questions. Black and White. If the financial statements are available to current volunteer staff, that is good to know. I think these people are hurt because of how money they gave has been spent. I guess the question is, how to resolve this issue with them, and I have no intention to get in the middle of anything.

My questions have been answered, and I do have great concerns as to abuses that happened, and they way people have been discarded. Once we talk to leadership at Mosaic about the governing system that is set up, the concerns that have been raised at this blog, etc, my husband and I will make our decision whether we are comfortable attending.

I won't be posting again. Good luck you guys, I hope that this can get taken care of. God Bless You All. Confused Mosaic Attender

I am praying for restoration for you who have been hurt. Typically in a situation like this, there will not be justice that feels like enough. Erwin won't resign. I'm almost 100% sure that he wont. There are church splits and messes all of the time, and people are wounded and abandoned. Most of the time the church doesn't apologize for their actions. People have to get to a point where they can move on. It really is a bummer, but that's the unfortunate thing that living in a fallen world brings.

I hate to seem negative, but there will be a point for all of you guys that are part of this MOP thing that you'll have to move on. You aren't going to get the result that you want, and I think this will just bring more hurt in the long run. If the BTI funds are what you're concerned about, and rightly so, I say, ask for your money back, donate it to something you believe you can stand behind. It appears that Mosaic is willing to give refunds from what I've read here.

By all means, try and get answers to your questions. Try and meet with people for healing. But, for your own well being, be prepared that nothing more as far as justice or consequences will be brought forth through this forum.

I truly am praying for you all. Like I said before, I'm so sorry you've been hurt. Church abuse destroys, and I get that. But, the freedom of moving on and healing is by far the most valuable thing you can do for yourself. I've experienced that myself in my past, and it's been the most amazing gift from God.

There are many ministries out there online that deal with healing from church abuse, and many books. Look for them, seek out healing.

"No one's saying it isn't. Ex-members who have requested a refund have gotten it. I'm not sure what the ongoing issue here is, but I'm not going to belabor it."

Yes, all TWO of the ex-members that requested it received it back, thus far. Since it seems to be no problem for Mosaic to return it, and they do not see fit to account for it to "ex-members" it would be beneficial for all of those who have given to BTI to officially ask for their's back as well.

Unfortunately, the BTI issue is the proverbial TIP OF THE ICEBERG here.

MOP is about the abuse of past and present leaders at Mosaic. The discarding of members, and the killing off of one church so as to start another one. Sad, but true.

Many of those on here had moved on, read the books, and experienced the healing, but God would not let them stay away from their responsibility of warning others about what might be their eventual fate.

I spent this morning with my in-laws and family at the 9:30 Mosaic service. There were no armed guards at the door. There were no security agents milling about the crowd. While I didn't drink any beverages, my wife, kids and in-laws did and they're fine. I saw a lot of people who I haven't seen in years, I greeted them and they greeted me with a hug or a smile. We talked at length with some of them, we prayed about some personal issues with one of them. MOP was never mentioned. There was a part of the service that was very moving. The creative aspects of the service were well done, my experience is that you can't pull that together without real passion for what you believe in. Mosaic comes across as a typical Christian church. Erwin is a dynamic and charismatic speaker, it's a shame he doesn't like Christians.

I truly hope your efforts don't go unnoticed. Good luck, we are praying for you. I'm glad you've sought out healing, that's the biggest victory for the Lord, that you are now well. May your purpose and passion be now fueled by God's calling. Blessings.