Episode 41: The Eat Wheat and Grain Brain Debate

Dr. John had an interview with Dr. David Perlmutter, MD – a Board-Certified Neurologist, Fellow of the American College of Nutrition and four-time New York Times bestselling author. Dr. Perlmutter wrote the #1 New York Times bestseller, Grain Brain.

We are truly honored to be able to share this incredibly intelligent and fascinating conversation that provides a full scope of information on both sides of the wheat/gluten controversy.

Watch the Podcast: The Eat Wheat and Grain Brain Debate

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Get Your Copy of Eat Wheat

Dr. David Perlmutter’s Biography

David Perlmutter, MD, FACN, ABIHM is a Board-Certified Neurologist and Fellow of the American College of Nutrition who received his M.D. degree from the University of Miami School of Medicine where he was awarded the Leonard G. Rowntree Research Award. After completing residency training in Neurology, also at the University of Miami, Dr. Perlmutter entered private practice in Naples, Florida where he serves as Medical Director of the Perlmutter Health Center and the Perlmutter Hyperbaric Center.

Dr. Perlmutter serves as Adjunct Instructor at the Institute for Functional Medicine in Gig Harbor, Washington. He is recognized internationally as a leader in the field of nutritional influences in neurological disorders. Dr. Perlmutter is a frequent lecturer at symposia sponsored by such medical institutions as Harvard University, the University of Arizona, Scripps Institute, New York University, and Columbia University.

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Comments

My own experience has been eating any grains sets off a cascade of negative symptoms. I would like to see/listen to an interview with Dr Peter Osborne who in my opinion is an expert on grains and the gluten in them.
I don’t know one person who has stopped eating grains that hasn’t benefited from avoiding them, they lose excess body weight have more clarity less overall pain rashes and lesions disappear etc.
I was wasting away eating grains, I did not gain weight, not every person is the same and many of those who are overweight are also eating other processed foods and foods drenched with toxic chemicals. Eating clean/organic is the only way to go in the USA our food supply is a joke!
Grains are poison to me. I think its irresponsible to urge people to eat wheat especially with the modern day plaque of illness’s we now have.

Have you read Dr. Douillard’s book? He discusses this very concept in it. There is more to the story. He never encourages people to eat wheat if it makes them feel sick. Instead he walks you through what you need to do in order to be able to digest wheat again. So you are good to eliminate wheat from your diet if it is making you feel better to do that. He is just saying it does not necessarily have to be a permanent situation.

Thank you for this very important educational discussion. The title of the book is simplistic, directive and therefore misleading. “You CAN Eat (Whole) Wheat* and *Here’s Why” would be clearer. Or “Re-boot your Digestion AND Eat Wheat.” LOVE the alternative to Western medical thinking. Maybe the next publication/edition could be clearer. Thank you!

However, as dr Pearlmutter points out you might not have symptoms or feel yucky after eating wheat but may have consequences because the gluten and gliaden have nut caused gastrix consequences but neurologic consequences.
The name of the book is missleading.

It sure has been made into the new “poison.” But, I completely agree that we have to keep digging as ask “why.” I myself have learned that going gluten free has not solved all my problems. I especially believe in the genetics of this issue. The correlation between blood type / genetic profile and the amount of grain and meat consumed should also be considered. Thumbs up to Dr. Douillard! I completed my 1st Colorado Cleanse this fall — and have been able to tolerate more foods then ever before. There is something to said about his rational and balanced view on treating imbalance in the gut / body – and empowering oneself to take charge of their individual health story.

I have to say – I have tons of respect for Dr. Douillard, and have been following him for over 11 years, since I first encountered him as a teacher at the nutrition school I was attending at the time. Over the years, I enjoyed reading his posts and listening to his podcasts on various subjects. But I have to say – this wheat thing seems to have consumed all his time lately – it’s almost like he is on a mission to prove all the esteemed doctors and scientists, who talk about the potentially negative impacts of wheat, wrong. Most of his e-mails we get lately are about something wheat-related, like dangers of being gluten-free and benefits of whole wheat. By the way, for those of us with real wheat and digestive problems, I believe that whole wheat has a higher content of wheat germ agglutinin protein than processed wheat, and may cause even more problems. And I agree with a lot of what he mentions in his wheat discussions – that there is much more out there than wheat alone, and gluten certainly is not the only contributing factor to our health issue, and our digestion became compromised by many different factors. But still I just wish Dr. Douillard could get back to education us about things other than wheat some time soon. It’s always good to hear different views on health things, but I just think this total preoccupation with wheat and gluten has gotten a little out of hand lately – I have been thinking about it for a while…. And there are practitioners out there who mainly talk about dangers of gluten, which is not so great either. 🙂 That said, gluten, among other things, did a lot of damage to my health, and I am not sure that fixing my digestion would allow me to ever eat gluten-containing foods again.

Wow, this is powerful. What a remarkable couple of people, to be able to sit down and discuss such an important topic in a friendly and professional manner… Much respect to you both. John you sure are turning heads with this book, but I’m fully behind you. Reboot digestion, and let’s break bread! Thank you for your contribution to the world John, inspiring to say the least.

I can only agree with Dr Perlmutter that I have learnt so so much from this new book: EAT WHEAT. It ishighly recommended!
It has made me look at so many things in a new way and I am very grateful for his comprehensive lectures about how our digestive system works and the whole chain of events that is taking place. From sipping on hot water to the working of the lymphatics and its link to all the modern day ailments and autoimmunity diseases.
Following his method is really addressing the core issue and producing true healing without just treating symptoms either by elimination diets or taking loads of supplements. I believe in eating good quality wheat because of the crucial function it delivers to the microbiome.
Thanks Dr Douillard for your generosity and enthusiasm.

Beyond what we typically discuss via wheat-gluten and it’s effect on health for some is the pervasive practice of “browning”, the systematic spraying of grains with glyphosate to facilitate maturity before harvest. Glyphosate is a serious environmental toxin with many potential adverse health effects.
Mark

Bravo Dr Doulliard!!! I am so impressed with the interview! I was concerned when I saw the interviewer because I know his work and I know know your work and philosophy. Thank you for such an intelligent, respectful discussion. You were on point, and your message was clear, well supported and brilliantly delivered. Way to go!

Totally agree with you, Suzannah. For me, the point is not whether I can or can’t eat wheat. The important message is to address the underlying problems which most of us are unaware of and John is very intelligently trying to pinpoint. In regards to the ‘confusing title’, nobody in their right mind would eat wheat or any other food without doing their research first. Thank you very much John for the brilliant job you are doing!!!

Wonderful interview! Thank you, gentlemen, for the articulate, informative discussion regarding digestive health. It is extremely impressive to see opposing sides of an argument come together and kindly, respectfully yet passionately provide information so that we may take the facts and findings from both camps and merge them together to make our own informed decisions about our health. Deeply needed and appreciated!
Dr. Douillard, your book and the information on your website is incredibly eye-opening and valuable for so many. Please know that your time, energy, and efforts to help others heal are received with the utmost gratitude.

What the world needs more of: Two GENTLEMEN having a respectful debate. I am SO happy about this! Wonderful information and even better interchange between two phenomenal people who I totally and completely respect–and even more so after watching this!

Agree completely about the value and necessity of civil debate and allowing people to hear differing opinions. It requires that your audience participate in active listening, reading and deciding for themselves. This is part of the lifestyle change of participatory healthcare and responsibility.
We as a culture have lost the ability to discuss and support our positions from a factual and studied position, to think critically and be respectful in our exchanges. Bravo to two gentlemen. Thank you.

If you really think we can eat wheat in the form of wheat berries or any other form try doing it without heat or pots and pans. Very difficult you at least need to soak them.
As for hunting, paleo folks had a big selection and lots off it. Snakes, rabbits, raccons, skunks, deer, rodents, fish galore, etc. hundreds if not thopusands of animals to hunt and eat. When i was a boy of 13 or so i went to a survival school and was able to eaisly find animal to eat with no modern tools. Did have matches to start a fire.
Go on line and see how California Indians caught fish. Five or ten people jump in a river or strean with sharp pointed sticks and jsut start stabbing. Still being done up in Northern California.
I enjoyed the enterview and plan to get the book sounds like more than just eat wheat.

If there is a total economic and social breakdown of our country (and ultimately much of the rest of the socalled first world; it’s coming, to be sure), all those wild animals you list will be killed in no time flat by starving people in our overpopulated world. This is not a paleolithic culture anymore, with its small, widely spaced populations. We have to keep in mind how fragile our food production and distribution systems are.

Just saying; not disagreeing with any of your comments.

By the way, soaking & sprouting wheat is rather easy, don’t you think?

Good debate. Re schizophrenia and wheat. It’s he-said; he-said, isn’t it. Dr Douillard makes a good point in saying you have to look at the whole picture, where some foods are beneficial for some conditions, but harmful in other senses. The lymph angle seems to be the main point.

I have been following Dr. Douillard for a few years now and just fairly recently came across the paleo diet. Then Dr. Douillard announced his new book and I thought ‘I just so wish he and an expert from paleo world would sit at a table to discuss their different view points!’. And here it is! Thank you so much for this immensely inspiring talk of two extraordinary gentlemen! What a rare but much needed dialogue! Thank you!

My congratulations to you Dr Douillard for this book and the interview. Seeing two experts with very different opinions come together to have a thoughtful and respectful discussion was SO AMAZING! I am so grateful and only hope this inspires more in our community to come together to serve one another regardless of beliefs, science or experience. As a family with mixed dietary needs, I so appreciate your commitment to honoring the complexities of the human body and not subscribing to one idealized form of elimination or healing. And…I love the wisdom in not throwing out the foods that are hard to digest, but to explore deeper the needs of the body and its wisdom. Thank you for your work and courage to put ideas out there that are not main stream. In gratitude….

We really have to be our own labs so see how we feel. Most people eat wheat, even processed. Most people are OK. Some people are getting sick because there is some onslaught of something that is disrupting our systems. It may be grains, it may be something else, that is what I feel. Like it or not, grains and wheat have fed the world and will continue to do so. I believe most of us have adapted to it over the millennium. I think the people who lived a long time ago had a good sense of what was going on with what they ate. After all, they developed herbal medicine because they were very sensitive to the effect of substances on the body. If wheat was making them sick, they would have rejected it as something to eat. It seems the processed foods and the pesticides are the new items about us. Just look at the societies that have lived the longest. They certainly did not eliminate grains. We just all can’t, or the world would starve.

My health and gut microbiome declined significantly once I gave up ancient wheat. What I discovered was that it was not the wheat that was causing my gut issues, brain fog, fatigue and body ache, but rather not producing enough hydrochloric acid (HCl). I agree with Dr. John Douillard…heal the gut, improve the diet, detox the lymphatic system, address deficiencies and low HCl, add more healthy fats into the diet, REDUCE STRESS, and incorporate an overall balanced and healthy lifestyle. Thank you for addressing this Dr. Douillard!!

Very inspiring exchange by 2 inspiring individuals!
I have read Eat Wheat and all the books from Dr Pearlmutter.

Something I cannot understand about Eat Wheat is that Dr John’s recipe to make sourdough bread uses “full purpose” flour, which is normally made by white flour?
I got confused because I thought that the message of the book was to stay away from white flour?

I have just found this podcast as I navigate a gluten sensitivity with neurological impacts rather than digestive. My search for balanced views landed here and I’m thoroughly impressed by the intellectual deference displayed by Dr Douillard & Dr Perlmutter. An informative debate which has encouraged me to look deeper into circadian seasonal rhythms in diet (& life). Thank you!

* These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

Disclaimer: The entire contents of this website are based upon the opinions of John Douillard. They are not intended to replace a one-on-one relationship with a qualified health care professional, and they are not intended as medical advice. They are intended as a sharing of knowledge and information from the research and experience of John Douillard and his community. John Douillard encourages you to make your own health care decisions based upon your research and in partnership with a qualified health care professional.