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This video made me sick to my stomach. Where were the guns? And so what if they had guns? Maybe they had them for protection from Iraqi militants? How would you feel about being shot up by an apache for having out your pistol while walking around town?

War is a dirty business. It was also a stupid mistake on the part of all parties involved. Emotionally charged orders usually result in civilian deaths however. Firstly, Iraq, Waziristan, Pakistan....irrelevant. We make it clear as military personnel repeatedly that they should NOT walk around with guns in open public, especially RPG's. Thats our job.
If they get shot in the arse for holding a weapon you can hardly blame the military for engaging them as a precautionary weapon and deterrent against terrorism.

Just listen to them gloat about it too. That is why I will never join the army. I could never get satisfaction out of killing another human being, even if they were my enemy.

It assumes civilians who help armed men who were just shot, would also be armed and therefore would also get shot. It means that innocents get killed in all wars or conflicts. It means that during an engagement, civilians keeps their head and ass on the ground in a non-threatening manner until the shooting stops.

As for the van that attempted to pick up the wounded or bodies... granted that doesn't look so good. However there may well be contextual reasons that we are not aware of. Possibly there has been an established pattern of other militants showing up to evac dead/wounded militants, and they were operating on that assumption. There was no way of knowing there were children in the van... and as mentioned above, we've been dealing with an enemy who deliberately uses women and children as shields and "martyrs" for propanganda purposes.

To tell you the truth G. The initial actions of the Apache crew were correct under the circumstances. They identified (correctly or incorrectly) the group as armed. They reported the contact, got permission to engage. and did so. From the video it appears justified.
No issues there.

Then the van arrives.
Guess what? They were justified in taking out the van also. Remember that they had just identified an armed group of insurgents. Anyone giving aid to same is an insurgent also. That's what makes it a valid target.
As it turns out the initial sighting was incorrect, and an error on the part of the US. But an understandable one given the quality of the video feed. But the steps taken after that were the correct ones.

This isn't the first time and it's far from being the last time.
Mistakes like this are saddening, it is right to grief for the innocents lost in this attack.

Now a quick analysis of the thread and incident:

Some folks here have said that this was a murder of innocents.
Murder is an intended killing, and this video acts as a cutting evidence that there was no intention from the soldiers to take the life of the innocents, who were mistaken as combatants in this unfortunate incident.

One dude here has made the claim that the guys carrying AK-47s were not insurgents but simply regular Iraqi innocent civilians who have carried firearms in defense from paramilitary organizations.
That claim is of course false(and also quite absurd).

A group of people(not an individual) hanging out(together) with exposed(non-holstered) AK-47s.
Unless they were planning to go on a hunting, which was probably not the case here since this is the heart of Baghdad we're talking about, there exists zero doubt that those folks were insurgents.
Their deaths is hence, by all means, justified.

The ones who've attempted to pick up the bodies were most probably also part of the insurgent team, and have attempted to gain control of their co-workers bodies. But we can only assume.
Nevertheless, you cannot just walk into a battle zone and start picking up dead bodies, even if you're innocent, and then act all surprised when you try to escape with the bodies and get shot at.
In the more probable case, those guys were insurgents.

The mistaken identification of the journalist's camera as an RPG is understandable.
He was partially hiding behind the corner and was apparently aiming his camera towards the chopper.
That's an understandable false identification and the larger part of the blame goes to the journalist, may he rest in peace, who was risking his life by pointing the camera towards the chopper(and more noticeably by hanging around a group of ****ing insurgents).

As said before, mistakes like this unfortunately play a part of every war and operation, especially against insurgents and terrorist organizations, who do not follow the rules of law and do not deter from placing kids in the face of danger.
In fact, they do it deliberately, to blame their attackers(The US army in this case) for the expected casualties.

Since there was no intention to cause or harm innocents, I do not understand the big shock here, as if nobody knew here that civilians die out there.
The war will, however, go on, and mistakes like this would have to be used for the further attempted minimizing of innocent casualties.

Last edited by Apocalypse; 04-06-10 at 08:44 AM.

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

War is a dirty business. It was also a stupid mistake on the part of all parties involved. Emotionally charged orders usually result in civilian deaths however. Firstly, Iraq, Waziristan, Pakistan....irrelevant. We make it clear as military personnel repeatedly that they should NOT walk around with guns in open public, especially RPG's. Thats our job.
If they get shot in the arse for holding a weapon you can hardly blame the military for engaging them as a precautionary weapon and deterrent against terrorism.

But in reality that means that no foreign journalist, foreign aid workers etc.. couldn't move around in Iraq. Because either you go out on the street without armed guardes and get kidnaped our worsed or you take with you armed guards and get shot by the american military.

But in reality that means that no foreign journalist, foreign aid workers etc.. couldn't move around in Iraq. Because either you go out on the street without armed guardes and get kidnaped our worsed or you take with you armed guards and get shot by the american military.

Listen, more likely your gonna survive a kidnapping then you will a NATO Apache.

Journalists, nobody should be roaming the streets in areas as unstable as the suburbs of Baghdad. Iraq is surprisingly not as dangerous as you may think, NATO offensives and local community programmes have really started to kick off; it is fine to walk about without a gun but you need to be careful, walk in with the crowds, keep any bags you have close to you and DO NOT attend political rally's.

I mean, having body guards with Klashikovs are one thing; having body guards with RPG's is something else. Unless your planning on taking down a brigade of cars or a helicopter, what the hell do you intend to kill with such a large impact distant combat weapon?

I love how lefties have the nerve to critique a military operation from halfway around the world with absolutely no context of what it's like to be in a war 24 hours a day. It must come from repeatedly backing down from difficult situations continually.

I love how lefties have the nerve to critique a military operation from halfway around the world with absolutely no context of what it's like to be in a war 24 hours a day. It must come from repeatedly backing down from difficult situations continually.

You have a very odd notion of who is a lefty and who isn't. It's almost as if you wanted to point fingers with no concern for accuracy.

We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham