I mean the major rivers are already in, but we may add a few extra "minor" rivers here and there, as the number of regions almost doubled and their cut was made mostly along the sides of existing rivers (but the guy making the cut did not mention them)...

Carnium wrote:PhilThib: May I get a good screenshot (=here or on my e-mail) of the regions in Austria, Eastern Italy and the Balkans? Some regions may have a strange cut.

I can do the same for Greece, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, and Germany. If the whole map is not possible, just mail me chunks or screenshots of said areas to have an understanding of the scale. And of course instructions if you need something more technical such as pinpointing pixels as the rivers flow...

Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:

My two cents to it:I wonder about Grossberen(North of Dresden), could someone have mixed it up with "Grossbeeren" the village close to Berlin were a battle was fought?[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Großbeeren[/url]Maybe Großenhain was meant.

I mean the major rivers are already in, but we may add a few extra "minor" rivers here and there, as the number of regions almost doubled and their cut was made mostly along the sides of existing rivers (but the guy making the cut did not mention them)...

Regarding Portugal, in the "other" European map you sent me some days ago by mail, 3 important minor rivers are represented, the Minho, Mondego and Guadiana:

(PS: there is some lack in consistency between current portuguese names (like Cabo Mondego), "archaic" portuguese (Bahia de Setubal is 19th century, current name should be Baía de Setúbal) and english names (Tago Estuary, should be Estuário do Tejo). Maybe some corrections or consistency ?)

I mean the major rivers are already in, but we may add a few extra "minor" rivers here and there, as the number of regions almost doubled and their cut was made mostly along the sides of existing rivers (but the guy making the cut did not mention them)...

Regarding Portugal, in the "other" European map you sent me some days ago by mail, 3 important minor rivers are represented, the Minho, Mondego and Guadiana:

(PS: there is some lack in consistency between current portuguese names (like Cabo Mondego), "archaic" portuguese (Bahia de Setubal is 19th century, current name should be Baía de Setúbal) and english names (Tago Estuary, should be Estuário do Tejo). Maybe some corrections or consistency ?)

This is a first draft for Greece. I still have to understand what goes where exactly on the AGEOD map and update the Excel file as well. Is this how you want it done, Philippe?

My source for Greece's main rivers as of today. Some of them (Evros, Nestos, Strymon) are well-known natural defensive lines of modern Greece (against Turkey at least). Evros is the natural border with Turkey, where Ardas meets the border.

Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:

The first sketch is enough for me. For the rivers, just make sure they run along the current region cuts, as you did (mostly) and that will be fine. Also you need to include the name (as far as possible in local wording, but using European alphabet, not Greek)

Dear Phil, sorry I can help with the map thing, but regarding the projects you may have based on the map (ie European wars between 1600 and 1880 I suppose), I justed wanted to point to a few things that would really add to the game experience :
- Make the role of cities and fortresses controling rivers and passes more important : ie, control of the city of Maastricht on the right side of the Meuse should enable an army to cross this major river only with minor river penalty, even if he doesn't control the province itself, because the city controls the brigdes. Have some cities and fortresses downgrade the penalty from major to minor river, or from minor to nil. Same for passes. This would make control of fortresses, cities and bridges, so central in 17th, 18th century and napoleonic warfare a central part of games to come.
- Make sure friction for movement is properly enable. With the size of the provinces, a player shouldn't be able to move big stacks without considerable loss of time due to friction, forcing him to either have a big army moving slowly (18th century style) or having smaller sized forces, ie napoleonic corps, moving parallel to each other before concentrating again for the big battle. This is an essential feature to make the use of corps in a Napoleonic game worthwile. Friction (ie calculated by elements number / Quality of infrastructure and terrain of the province) is a key element : a 100 000 men army should be slow, even in Belgium or southern germany if it moves together, if it is divided in 3/4 corps moving parallel through different provinces, it should go much faster.

PhilThib wrote:Your points are valid but are more engine than map issues

Of course. I meant this as in these are engine aspects that are key to a proper taking into account of the map and have an influence in map making : If you know that cities and fortresses will play a key role in river crossings, then you research key bridge/Cities to be placed on the map.

Thanks. Keep in mind when drawing rivers that they should have some 'significant' impact on military operations (movement slow down, defensive line, ferry)...if there was nothing of real importance (like a too shallow river for instance), then we should avoid them... for instance, we usually don't draw rivers up to their springs, because the up river sections are usually no more than little streams with no impact on military matters...for example, those Italian rivers in the north should not extend into the Alps, as they are not really obstacles at that point

Sure sure, you are totally right. These source maps are actually showing major rivers, but I don't really know how much upstream are considered difficult to cross. For example, the Danube is a huge river in Hungary, but here in the Black Forest I live it is something really silly.

A general comment: we are lucky in a certain aspect, if you think about it, most provinces on the map have borders according to historical borders because of geographical constraints. It is rather unusual to have borders à la Midwest USA, where the colonists arbitrarily set the boundaries in the age of cartography. So indeed, I do not think we should overdo it with these rivers, unless it is a well-known major one, relatively far from its springs.

Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:

It would be great to know where this is going. I must say I wasn't seduced into buying CW2 (lacked some of the taste and charm AACW had without being new enough to me) but I am really dying for a quality european modern era wargame. If based on a nice map you could do a good Napoleonic era wargame, it would be so great...

Could you please share the latest version? The "ageoddl.telechargement.fr...." link no longer works and I'd like to take a look at it to see if I can be of assistance with minor rivers in some of the regions of Europe. At the very least, it'd be a great reference map to consult when reading about, say, the campaigns of Napoleon.

Happy New Year! I'd still love to contribute by doing some research on minor rivers, especially in Eastern Europe. Will you be uploading the latest version of the map? My interest in this project is that for me, first and foremost, it'll be a great reference, a sort of easily accessible military atlas if you will, for better understanding of books, board games, documentaries, articles etc. - your research on the smaller regions and the corresponding terrain is excellent.

My interests are Napoleonic Wars, Easter European military history and the Middle Ages: that's why I am well aware of the impact of major and minor rivers in military campaigns and it'd be great to have access to a map like this (especially once the minor rivers are added in).