I searched the forum and couldn't find any info on this. Since I'm a green horn to the breed I always wanted to know what is the difference between DEUTSCH KURZHAAR and German Shorthair Pointer. Reading the websites it seems to me is just registration and breeding titles and Evals. Similar to the German Shepherd's Pink Papers. Why do some breeders advertise DEUTSCH KURZHAAR on their websites instead of GSP? Is the DEUTSCH KURZHAAR considered a different breed compared to the GSP? I know the DEUTSCH KURZHAAR is German for German Shorthair Pointer.

Yes that might be so but if you look at the German breeds I think in most instances they are heavier,thicker, & more coarse then their American counter parts but they are still them same breeds.Dobes,Rotts,etc.

mcbosco wrote:If you are on Facebook look at the DK Group. You will see quite a few pictures of pretty stout dogs and lots of dead fur.

Who doesn't have Facebook .. I did look at it and the one thing I know well that stuck out was FCI. So to me its just a registration and breeding thing same dogs....same blood just a different registration factor. I am sure I am opening a can of worms here

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Yes that might be so but if you look at the German breeds I think in most instances they are heavier,thicker, & more coarse then their American counter parts but they are still them same breeds.Dobes,Rotts,etc.

Ah so just like folks say they want a German Rott..Bigger Blocky head...The bulb went off.. DDR GSD, Czech, West GSD ect. I got it now. I guess because they use the German words it got me all off track. Thanks!!

My foundation dog was half DK breeding and half American field trial stock breeding. His original papers were FDSB. His grandson got favorable comments, though no placement, in his debut as an NBHA Shooting Dog. Go figure.

Lived in Germany for many years and I've seen a lot of GSPs in the US. Good dogs in either camp. My take....

The GSP is smaller, lighter boned and bred to be a retrieving bird dog. The DK is larger on average, bigger boned and still expected to be an all rounder for the foot hunter from feather to fur. There has also been less crossbreeding with Pointers in the DK.

JKP wrote:Lived in Germany for many years and I've seen a lot of GSPs in the US. Good dogs in either camp. My take....

The GSP is smaller, lighter boned and bred to be a retrieving bird dog. The DK is larger on average, bigger boned and still expected to be an all rounder for the foot hunter from feather to fur. There has also been less crossbreeding with Pointers in the DK.

Yes I did see a DK carrying a RedFox on the website.. that intrigues me. We have many fox in Indiana. I guess when I hit the trial circuit I will keep my eyes and ears open for a DK and see if I can pick out any differences.

I train with mostly DD and DK guys. Some of the DKs are taller/stouter, but then so is my older dog Roxi, and she's AKC. Some you wouldn't be able to tell the difference and I've been known to ask. I think stones get thrown from both sides of the fence...maybe it just depends who throws first? It's unproductive IMO, no matter which direction it comes from.

I sometimes wonder if I'm looked down on, but in doing work side by side with DKs, I think my dogs prove they are capable (even though I as a trainer am often lacking)...and I've been on the receiving end of some really nice compliments by these guys that I'm sure are genuine. I think sometimes it comes down to the things people feel free to say and judge about others--without really knowing them. Once you get to know the other side, it's hard to deny that maybe their dog has just as much style on point as yours, or maybe yours can tear up a duck search just as well. I think in not having a lot of the same doggie game goals, NAVHDA might be one of the few areas, as it was for me, that meshes the two groups.

I couldn't resist this summer, when the guys got out a fox, to do a fox in the box exercise. Not all dogs took to it, like a duck does to water, but I thought I'd see what my Foxy Roxi could do. After placing it in her mouth a couple times, she took off, prizing it around the barnyard like she'd just won the doggie lottery. I didn't try the retrieving from the box, as I figured that was too much to ask the 1st time round.

The short answer is that the Deutsch Kurzhaar is registered with a different registration body than the GSP. In reality, however, the Kurzhaar is truly a separate breed from the American derivative, the German Shorthaired Pointer. The Kurzhaar is bred according to a strict set of breed standards, which require testing in ability, conformation, and temperament before being allowed to breed. The GSP, on the other hand, as registered by the AKC, FDSB, NAVHDA and GSPCA, have only one requirement necessary before breeding—that both parents be registered members of the GSP breed.

The GSP's development in the US is in the hands of individual breeders, who have a variety of interests. Some are hunters, some are field trialers, some are only bench show fanciers. Some breeders round out their interests, and seek a dog that fulfills all of it's intentions,—hunting and conformation, but these are in the minority. Because of the diversity of these interests, the GSP and the DK breeds have diverged considerably over the years, even though they originally descended from the same stock. To help ensure that the versatility and original functions of the breed were not lost here in the US, the North American Deutsch Kurzhaar Club (NADKC) was formed with the help of the parent club (the DKV) in Germany).

Ok Wems you say you feel equal,ask the DK people if your GSP can take the DK test & if it passes if your GSP can be registered as a DK?The DK if they don't take the test or fail it they can be registered as AKC GSPS & in fact a DK can be registered as a GSP.But a GSP can never be registered as a DK so that's equal?Oh & like I said price a DK & GSP.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ok Wems you say you feel equal,ask the DK if your GSP can take the DK test & if it passes if your GSP can be registered as a DK?The DK if they don't take the test or fail it they can be registered as AKC GSPS & in fact a DK can be registered as a GSP.But a GSP can never be registered as a DK so that's equal?

I really don't have to ask. I like and believe in what I do enough, that I don't care if my dogs can be registered as DKs. I'd have a DK if I wanted one. It would be fun to test, since I do a lot of the same stuff anyway. The guys I run with could care less about cross registering AKC, and I wonder what percentage is out there really cross registering? As was mentioned, the DK registry is a registry of records from test scores, breed shows, health clearances, etc. All dogs take the same tests and hopefully are judged in a similar fashion, with scores visible for all. AKC requires none of that. It's apples to oranges registries, so why would you expect one with a lot of requirements, to accept dogs from a registry with no requirements. So AKC dog A passes the VJP, HZP, VGP, whatever...it would have no ancestral history behind it...and defeat the entire purpose of their registry of record keeping. It would be like starting the DK stud books from scratch, with each AKC dog that the DK registry would theorhetically allow cross-registered.

This board is dominated by FT/American bred gsp folks, go ask the same question over at versatiledogs.com and you will get a similar reaction but from the other side.

IMO opinion you a can get a very similar dog to a DK by looking at many of your NAVHDA bred dogs, because many NAVHDA lines are heavily influenced by DK blood. IMO there is about as much difference in NAVHDA dogs vs field trial dogs as there is DK vs GSP.

Also remember that in some cases the only difference in a DK and a GSP is one generation.

Some folks want a gsp to look and act like a gsp, some folks want a gsp to look and act like a pointer, good thing there is room enough for all of us. Regardless of what look you like you can find a GSP/DK that will hunt whatever you want to hunt.

Andy I have said this before I have nothing against DKs as far as I'm concerned they are GSPS but the owners & breeders are high & mighty they think their DKs are worth twice as much.The only thing that makes them a DK is a test & piece of paper so why couldn't a GSP pass that test & get that piece of paperI really don't know any one that wants to but I'm just saying that's ALL they can hold above us. I know atleast one person on this board enquired about buying a DK from a litter & wanted to reg it as a GSP & was told absolutely not by the breeder.Then he politely told them where to go!!

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Andy I have said this before I have nothing against DKs as far as I'm concerned they are GSPS but the owners & breeders are high & mighty they think their DKs are worth twice as much.The only thing that makes them a DK is a test & piece of paper so why couldn't a GSP pass that test & get that piece of paperI really don't know any one that wants to but I'm just saying that's ALL they can hold above us. I know atleast one person on this board enquired about buying a DK from a litter & wanted to reg it as a GSP & was told absolutely not by the breeder.Then he politely told them where to go!!

I think it is a positive for everyone that there are a small group of folks who are willing to put in the considerable work to maintain the DK as a true all around game dog. I breed DD. I'm in the VDD because I meet the folks who value what I do and the pool of breeding dogs is far more attractive to me. In the end, its about the people...working with folks that share the same objectives...have a similar dog in their mind's eye. I don't think its any more complicated than that. Some folks see a 50 lb white dog in front of the horse and some don't. Some need an 8x10 glossy with a blue ribbon on the wall. Some want to maintain a heritage that started it all...and others could care less. Different strokes...

I do think the DK people do a much better job on health/conformation than many/most of GSP breeders, and they are more oriented on a singular goal, as opposed to GSP where you have many branches of the breed... AF dogs, AKC FT dogs, Navhda dogs, AKC hunt test dogs, Dual dogs. (Of course some of these dogs could be successful in all or at least multiple venus). Not to mention the show garbage.

Many breeds have multiple registries and sometimes the breeders involved become so divided that factions cannot see the same road for the breed. This has happened recently in Border collies, with some folks favoring and following the road to the AKC conformation and performance varieties of the breed and some remaining "true" to the working stockdogs of the ABCA. The Jack Russell terrier joined the AKC, then became the Parson Russell while the JRTCA folks withdrew their support of those affiliated with the AKC and took the name of the breed with them. Other dogs with divergent processes that resulted in splitting a breed include the Irish and the red setters and Staffordshire and American pit bull terriers.

As far as DKs adhering to some ancestral developmental standard through testing, the German shorthaired pointer began to be developed in the late nineteenth century and the pinnacle of testing, the Kleeman Sieger, was developed in the mid-twentieth, after the breed had been established in America.

Probably the pointer infusion has reduced the occurrence in our American bred dogs.

And is that really a bad thing, in the long run? Ever seen a dog bleed out from VWDII?

I had just this conversation recently about sub rosa crossbreeding and health issues as pertaining to the documented project to produce LUA Dalmatians from pointer breedings. The question was asked if perhaps that project had infused temperament issues into pointers since perhaps some of the F1 pups were designated pointers rather than crosses. Hmmmmmm......

But, that's beside the point. All DKs are German shorthaired pointers, but not all German shorthaired pointers are DKs. I'm down with that.

WOW, some of you are way off base.VWD? Can someone name one DK who has this?

how big a dog does it take to kill a fox,bobcat,or pig for that matter?

DKs don't take down bobcat or pigs or any big game. Fox are small and I expect my DKs to take down coyote, which on average are 40lbs.

Your probably right Andy because they have a dictator telling them what they can & can not breed

You have no idea what you are talking about.

There you have it folks that makes a DK worth twice as much as a GSP & my white dog only weighs about 45 lbs!!

I have nothing against DKs as far as I'm concerned they are GSPS but the owners & breeders are high & mighty they think their DKs are worth twice as much.The only thing that makes them a DK is a test & piece of paper so why couldn't a GSP pass that test & get that piece of paperI really don't know any one that wants to but I'm just saying that's ALL they can hold above us.

Ok Wems you say you feel equal,ask the DK people if your GSP can take the DK test & if it passes if your GSP can be registered as a DK?The DK if they don't take the test or fail it they can be registered as AKC GSPS & in fact a DK can be registered as a GSP.But a GSP can never be registered as a DK so that's equal?Oh & like I said price a DK & GSP.

Did I mention you have no idea what you are talking about?Oh,yeah, I did. Before you speak learn the facts.

Ok dogslife you give the facts since WE don't know anything.I'm going deer hunting for couple weeks so have to wait till I get back to LEARN!! I told you we were full of crap.Lets here from the ALMIGHTY!! Who said they were Arrogant? OH I think it was me.

The way I see it is genetically, they are the same breed, however, it sounds like the lines have been taken in slightly different direction resulting in slightly different characteristics. What I'm confused about is why GSPS breeders are bitter about DK's being sold at a higher price. There is obviously a demand for that philosophy of breeding, whether or not you agree with it, it's there and DK pups are sold at a higher price. If you're really that torn up about it, stop complaining and change your business model and breed some DKS! Personally I would never buy a DK or DD over a GSP or GWP because I think I can get a great, healthy, hunting dog for much cheaper with the other breeds, but am I going to tell the guy next door who wants to spend that extra cash on a DK he's stupid for doing so and he's got another think coming if he thinks his dog is superior to mine because he spent more money on it? No, that's ridiculous. They obviously believe buying a DK will produce a better dog, that's fine. You think it won't. Who cares? and if you do care, prove it in the field if that will make you feel better. It just seems like the main issue is the price point of these dogs and arguing over that IMO is just silly.

In my mind they are the same breed, maybe different types. The potential issue I see with DK's in the US is that unless they continuously import, the gene pool is going to shrink and shrink, which is not good for any breed. I'm all about genetic diversity. I don't like that they will dual register with AKC but it only works one way. Even if my GSP passed all of their health tests and hunting tests he's still not good enough? That's an elitist attitude that I'm not real crazy about. I've seen some really nice DK's, but I've also seen some that look like hounds. And for all their health testing, I've heard of dysplasia cropping up with them as well.

ACooper wrote:I do think the DK people do a much better job on health/conformation than many/most of GSP breeders, and they are more oriented on a singular goal, as opposed to GSP where you have many branches of the breed... AF dogs, AKC FT dogs, Navhda dogs, AKC hunt test dogs, Dual dogs. (Of course some of these dogs could be successful in all or at least multiple venus). Not to mention the show garbage.

Hey now, not all dogs that show are "show garbage." I really like the UKC philosophy of the "Total Dog"......dogs that excel in performance and are conformationally correct to get the job done. I'm trying to achieve that with my GSP. He's a show CH, got his UKC Natural Ability, Prize I in NAVHDA NA, and got his Started Hunting Retriever title. I don't think focusing solely on conformation is a good thing for any breed; I want a dog that can do what he was bred to do, but having something nice to look at in the field isn't a bad thing either.

Atleast one person understands where I'm coming from.Dogslife I'm sure theire are DKs in my peds somewhere since that where it all started but you know me.So INFORM me with some of that education or FACTS.I really don't care if they get 4 times as much but I've heard so much from the breeders how much more superior they are to the Lowly American bred GSPS etc.etc.They can do nothing an A Bred GSP can't do except be registered as a DK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHA!

Not many DKs are sold at higher prices,generally around $800 -$1,000.Is anyone guarenteed to get a better dog, that would depend on the individuals definition of better.The DK gene pool in America is smaller than desired due to some breeders not wanting to breed outside a certain line.Going to Germany for breeding or importing dogs is a huge plus not to be seen as a disadvantage for the breed.The registry issue was addressed in a previous post by Wems2371:

As was mentioned, the DK registry is a registry of records from test scores, breed shows, health clearances, etc. All dogs take the same tests and hopefully are judged in a similar fashion, with scores visible for all. AKC requires none of that. It's apples to oranges registries, so why would you expect one with a lot of requirements, to accept dogs from a registry with no requirements. So AKC dog A passes the VJP, HZP, VGP, whatever...it would have no ancestral history behind it...and defeat the entire purpose of their registry of record keeping. It would be like starting the DK stud books from scratch, with each AKC dog that the DK registry would theorhetically allow cross-registered.

The bottom line is, DK breeders,any German club,is about like-minded individauls with a similiar goal.

So give me the facts where I was wrong,I'm still waiting & I'm waiting on my wife to get here with the dog food so I can mix it & go.I use VON because this is AMERICA & I can use any darn thing I please & breed anything I please.

legallyblonde wrote:In my mind they are the same breed, maybe different types. The potential issue I see with DK's in the US is that unless they continuously import, the gene pool is going to shrink and shrink, which is not good for any breed. I'm all about genetic diversity. I don't like that they will dual register with AKC but it only works one way. Even if my GSP passed all of their health tests and hunting tests he's still not good enough? That's an elitist attitude that I'm not real crazy about. I've seen some really nice DK's, but I've also seen some that look like hounds. And for all their health testing, I've heard of dysplasia cropping up with them as well.

I like the statement about "same breed differnt type" hit that on the nose. You are correct unless you introduce new blood from overseas it wil shrink the gene pool. The one thing I noticed in the GSD is that most the really good genetics were not sold to US until the dog was out of its prime and you could be lucky to get 1 or 3 breedings..lets face it most breeders won't sell there best breeding stock.JMO

Speaking of GSD's, that's another reason I like the UKC show ring, you actually see working dogs getting put up. I've seen plenty of judges put up WORKING LINE GSD's over those awful broken down triangles that people call GSD's.

I have always found this type of discussions interesting. I don't believe that DKs and GSPs are a different breed, any more then I think Show lines vs Field Trial lines vs NAVHDA lines, etc are different breeds from eachother despite greatly different characteristics in the same breed in those different lines. I would bet their is just as much difference in a 'Show' line Weim vs 'Field Trial' line Weim as there is in some DKs vs GSPs...

I will say I do find the DK (JGHV) system interesting in requiring dogs to prove themselves before they are bred. However my understanding is that dogs are required to meet minimums in all aspects of a JGHV test while still giving the breeder the latitude to focus on what they personally want to use their dogs for (I.e. their focus due to location, etc might be birds, so they breed a somewhat smaller faster dog who can still retrieve a fox, bloodtrack, etc while someone may breed a larger more powerful dog who can still do a decent job hunting birds because they boar hunt.)

In the end it still comes down to what the individual breeder prizes in their breeding program. That being said, the JGHV system means you are most likely going to get a decent hunting dog regardless of breeder, while the same is not necessarily true in AKC/CKC (I.e. Some breeders don't breed for hunting ability at all.)