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Topic: Russiagate (Read 33616 times)

terry myour memory is faulty to the point of malice.crimea was just another invasion of russian troops to "protect"russian citizens, a ploy used by hitler and stalin in order to grab landto deny this means you are not who you say you are in your postsbut that you are playing us for fools

I've been to Crimea numerous times, and have lived in Russia for several years so have some insights into this.Crimea basically has a Russian population (>90%), it was part of Russia for hundreds of years and the Russian SSR until Khruschev for stupid reasons gave it as a gift to the Ukrainian SSR back in the '50's.It's a fact that the Russian population was discriminated against by the Ukrainians, once the Soviet system collapsed. Crimeans wholeheartedly wanted to be returned to Russia, and welcomed their liberation from Ukraine.I'd say that the return of Crimea to Russia was a correction of a historic mistake made by Khruschev. Yes, it was done in total disregard to Ukraine. On the other hand, a coup d'etat was staged against the democratically elected president (yanukovich) of Ukraine at the same time, so the annexation of Crimea must be understood in that context.

What about Russia's annexation of the Crimea? What about the invasion of Georgia back in 2008?

There was no military invasion of Georgia in any legal sense as even a cursory attempt at research should show you, and I'm sure you know how to do research Bud. The Georgian armed forces attacked their own ethnically Russian enclaves and the UN mandated Russian Federation military that were keeping the peace there. The RF military response was as swift and overwhelmingly brutal as it was lawful, they crushed the Georgian military and then withdrew to the previously agreed borders. If it was Mexican military killing US peace keepers protecting citizens in the Mexican enclave of Texas I imagine you would applaud the US military application of overwhelming force in response?

I also fail to see how anyone can complain about the semi-autonomous Crimean parliament's decision to go to a referendum on secession from the Ukraine in the face of what they considered to be a violently unconstitutional coup against the democratically elected government of Ukraine. The overwhelming choice of the Crimean people, the overwhelming majority of whom are ethnically Russian, to secede was democracy in practice, no?

And again there was no Russian military invasion, the troops were already legally there as they have been for the last 2 centuries in Sevastopol. Remember the Crimean war? Or WW2 perhaps?

I despair at the stupidity of people who just regurgitate these propaganda memes as if they know what they're talking about when just a modicum of actual research will show the exact opposite! CC denialists do this all the time, arguing from passion with preconceived conclusions that find no evidentiary basis in reality, and you all know exactly how they work.

No invasion of Georgia, no invasion of the Crimea, these are utterly crude war propaganda memes peddled by the US government and its corporate media. THEY ARE DEMONSTRABLY BARE FACED LIES!

So....getting back to RussiaGate. Keep in mind...that RussiaGate ALONG with other issues (like healthcare, taxes, etc) are going to continue to "wear on" Donnie's approval ratings in coming weeks and months. Below is a link to a FOX poll (yes....THAT FOX). The "headline" on the poll looks good for Donnie....at 46% which is about 5% higher than most other polls....but about 2/3 down the polling information is this little tidbit:

I'm afraid Jason Chaffetz really got his "panties in a wad" on this one. Before the election....Jason was more than happy to talk about Benghazi and looking into any and every Clinton issue there was. And Jason was more than happy to work WITH the FBI in order to get Comey to come out and make an announcement regarding Clinton.

That rat is going to have a very bad day in the weeks or months ahead. Keep in mind....that US reps serve 2 year terms. So he was JUST re-elected in 2016. And two weeks ago he SUDDENLY decides he isn't going to run again. And then a week ago....he decides not only is he not going to run again....but he is going to step down early if he finds a job. And now...a few days after that....he decides he's going to get surgery on his foot, so he has to step down NOW.

One thing you learn in finance.....is when it looks like a rat, walks like a rat, and talks like a rat....ITS A RAT. It's just a matter of time. And my buddy Jason's time is quickly running out.

It looks like the US will pass a spending resolution that will give them ANOTHER WEEK before "the money runs out" and they have to pass a REAL spending bill. What this does is further "compress" several issues that are coming together ALL AT ONCE:

1) The French election on May 7th2) US House investigation with public interviews of Sally Yates (acting AG) and James Clapper on May 8th3) Spending deadline likely will be pushed back to next week sometime....May 5th or so4) Korea standoff continues to fester and grow...

What about Russia's annexation of the Crimea? What about the invasion of Georgia back in 2008?

I despair at the stupidity of people who just regurgitate these propaganda memes as if they know what they're talking about when just a modicum of actual research will show the exact opposite! CC denialists do this all the time, arguing from passion with preconceived conclusions that find no evidentiary basis in reality, and you all know exactly how they work.

Quite a diatribe there Zeug. You take a simple question, and you proceed to categorize me as uninformed, stupid and other labels too numerous to mention. I'm guilty of doing the same not so long ago. You appear to know a lot more about this subject than I do, but you are sorely lacking in tact and diplomacy. I suggest you take the time to learn these skills and apply them.

I also fail to see how anyone can complain about the semi-autonomous Crimean parliament's decision to go to a referendum on secession from the Ukraine in the face of what they considered to be a violently unconstitutional coup against the democratically elected government of Ukraine. The overwhelming choice of the Crimean people, the overwhelming majority of whom are ethnically Russian, to secede was democracy in practice, no?

Yeah I'm sure that's the official line. As someone who lives in an unincorporated territory who 100 years ago belonged to Spain and now belongs to the US I got an idea of what really happened there. I'm sure, there was a significant portion of the population that wanted annexation with Russia. Also I'm sure there was a significant portion of the population who preferred the status quo.

And again there was no Russian military invasion, the troops were already legally there as they have been for the last 2 centuries in Sevastopol. Remember the Crimean war? Or WW2 perhaps?

No, not Russian, only little green men with no markings, armed to the teeth, taking over strategical centers of power. If they were Russian, no court could ever prove it. Just like the election interference and policy setting for Donald Trump. Perfectly traceable, yet unprocessable. Good job.

THEY ARE DEMONSTRABLY BARE FACED LIES!

Unlike your lies who are carefully orchestrated to not be demonstrable in any court of law. It was a beautifully executed plan. Very organic.

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Yeah I'm sure that's the official line. As someone who lives in an unincorporated territory who 100 years ago belonged to Spain and now belongs to the US I got an idea of what really happened there. I'm sure, there was a significant portion of the population that wanted annexation with Russia. Also I'm sure there was a significant portion of the population who preferred the status quo.

Hi Archimid,

the Pew, GfK and Gallup polls indicate around 80-90% of Crimeans approve of the secession post referendum. The 'significant portion' of those against it was around 5% or less. As far as I know the peninsula is overwhelmingly ethnic Russian (>80%?) which would reflect the polling, plus a Tatar minority and then ethnic Ukrainian speakers. The secession was clearly a democratic choice of the people who live there don't you think?

As with the debate on anthropogenic climate change I prefer evidence based reality to propagandised lies. This current bout of neo-McCarthyist Russophobia in the US is insane, an expression of US elite angst concerning their ongoing loss of hegemonic power and the fact the Russians dare to act for their own national interests rather than kowtow to the superpower. The endgame for this global full spectrum dominance power play is the ultimate threat, a thermonuclear first strike to decapitate both Russia and China, and the US has been actively preparing for that eventuality ever since Bush 2 unilaterally cancelled the ABM treaty in 2002.

All this never ending 21st C global war does is stall any real cooperation on adjusting our global way of life to the inevitability of climate change, and every year we fail to act will just increase the misery of our children's children. How stupid are we collectively as a species!?

All this talk about interference in other countries politics reminded me of when we in the UK last had a socialist prime minister. He consistently refused to toe the line as demanded by the USA so someone at the embassy persuaded a particularly stupid general, and various other establishment figures that he needed to be replaced, and a coup was set up. Up to and including the takeover of major airports, well almost, some tory grandee put his foot down and persuaded the plotters that if they wanted a general uprising that would run out of control to what end nobody could guess, then they were going about it the right way. Cooler heads prevailed. This is a very cleaned up and slanted account, but at least it addresses the reality.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1

All this talk about interference in other countries politics reminded me of when we in the UK last had a socialist prime minister. He consistently refused to toe the line as demanded by the USA so someone at the embassy persuaded a particularly stupid general, and various other establishment figures that he needed to be replaced, and a coup was set up. Up to and including the takeover of major airports, well almost, some tory grandee put his foot down and persuaded the plotters that if they wanted a general uprising that would run out of control to what end nobody could guess, then they were going about it the right way. Cooler heads prevailed. This is a very cleaned up and slanted account, but at least it addresses the reality.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/mar/15/comment.labour1

the Pew, GfK and Gallup polls indicate around 80-90% of Crimeans approve of the secession post referendum. The 'significant portion' of those against it was around 5% or less. As far as I know the peninsula is overwhelmingly ethnic Russian (>80%?) which would reflect the polling, plus a Tatar minority and then ethnic Ukrainian speakers. The secession was clearly a democratic choice of the people who live there don't you think?

You mean the referendum with Russian soldiers stationed everywhere? LOL I probably would have voted for annexation if the Russian military apparatus was watching.

As with the debate on anthropogenic climate change I prefer evidence based reality to propagandised lies.

I don't understand your statement. Putin is a climate change denier and a fossil fuel profiteer, but you believe his words are "evidence based"? Is that what you are trying to say?

French forgiven, Russophobic accusation not forgiven. I have no fear of the Russian people, or even the country. I do however fear a murderous dictator bent on weakening Europe and the US, who is now driving a protectionist, xenophobic and authoritarian movement in the west.

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probably it makes little sense to break through obvious bias but then one thing and think about it:

russia tried to become a part of the so called international community for decades after the downfall of the USSR and they were lied to, cheated and ridiculed, treated as minors and as the big losers.

after many years of being offended over and over again the guy "putin" got tired of it and remembered that they had all the ingredients to be a world power that cannot be beaten withoutbeing suicidal, same applies to china and the U.S. hence russia stood up and who knows only the tiniest bit about russia knows that jelzin's soft hand got the country ever deeper into chaos and that that huge and wild country with too many alcoholics and cruel people need a hard hand to function, as, btw does china with it's 1.2 billion people. things are not black and white and not as easy as they seem and the western world is bankrupt exactly as the USSR was, we just lie and cheat ourselves through as long as we can and exploit africa and the rest of the world to keep the level and the show running into the abyss.

i'm swiss, not russian, just to make that clear and in my home country russiaphobia is widely spread indeed, mostly based on ignorance and fear.

the greates destabilisators in this world were once the colonial powers and now the U.S. and its vassal states ( UK, Australia and the likes ) i call them a..leekers but not that it matters what i think LOL. things will go their way and only chaos will lead to a new, perhaps better, perhaps worse aera.

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http://magnamentis.comKnowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

i'm swiss, not russian, just to make that clear and in my home country russiaphobia is widely spread indeed, mostly based on ignorance and fear.

I'm sorry but the news I read indicate that Putin's government uses the government to silence opposition. He practices assassination and intimidation of journalists. He actively backs Al Assad, a murderer who gasses his own people. From what I read homosexuals and some religious groups are persecuted. He has been in power 15 years and is now one of the richest men in the world.

Why should I not fear Putin? You can say what you want about the US or the west but I bet you that Russians citizens couldn't have the discussion we are having without fear for their lives. That should scare anyone who values freedom.

Now let me tell you a little true story about elections and polls. The island of Puerto Rico is a territory of the US. The two major parties main contention is the "status" of Puerto Rico. The blues want Puerto Rico to become a state. The reds want Puerto Rico to stay as it is. Then there is the minority party, the greens, who have not gotten more than 2% of the vote in the last 20 years, they want complete independence from the US.

For many years, the reds won the status referendums, but with a decreasing lead overtime. The choices in those polls were always:

1.Statehood2.Common wealth (stay the same)3 Independence

Then a particularly corrupt blue won and decided to change the way referendums were done. The new choices were:

Naturally statehood won by a very large margin. People are terrified of losing Puerto Rico's association with the US. But did it the referendum really reflect the will of the people? We'll never know because those weren't fair elections. Still blues ran with it and gained popularity. Of course statehood wasn't any closer, but most people don't care about little things like facts.

In the case of Crimea, These are the questions asked:

Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the federal subject of the Russian Federation?Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?

Choice 2 seems like a similar trick as the "almost independence" trick.

65% Russians15.7% Ukrainians12.2% Crimean Tatars (probably the true owners of Crimea, and a suffering people, but I have no clue)

Now hold on. This doesn't mean that the population is 90% Russian now. I can think of many reasons for the proportion of the population of one ethnicity to rise dramatically while others drop in just 2 years. So Zeug might not be completely lying.

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it is really hard in online discussion boards to decide who is a sock puppet or who is not. Putin has realized that by recruiting an army of puppetiers who attack any post/negative comment on the internet is the new propaganda victory.

so when i see unsubstaniated comments/reviews, i take them with a grain of salt, cause you see i can claim to be Frodo, and i can get proof like you would not believe.

Since I've been posting on Neven's sites since early 2011, and have only begun posting about politics recently, you must assume that evil Putin is playing a very long game indeed.Isn't it more likely to assume a modicum of paranoia on your part than even a hint of puppetry in mine?

As for others that find no fault in Putin's dealings in Crimea, isn't it astonishing that my research, and their prior knowledge, mirror each other so closely. If you can concede that I at least am almost certainly who I purport to be, doesn't it follow that the others are also flesh and bone contributors here?

As far as the will of the Crimean populace, I believe I'm correct when I say that twice in the past they held referendums and overwhelmingly voted to join Putin's Russia. I know I'm correct when I state that Pew Research's polls gave results that approximated the reported voting results. Hardly what would be expected if Russian military had an effect on the outcome.

When people so unquestioningly parrot the most popular propaganda, I think it's fortunate that they were first exposed to climate change memes rather than denialist themes. The same processes are used to determine the truth in both instances.

Does it make logical sense?Are facts more important than personalities?Does one side accept divergent facts as long as they point away from the others truth?Who gets nicked by Occam's razor?Who stands to gain?

There are many more tells in determining the truth, some very subtle, some as easy as reading history or contacting someone from the region that you can trust.

I spent ~2 years watching and reading everything from both sides in the Ukrainian conflict. I watched a thousand videos, read tens of thousands of accounts, and came to the same conclusion as those that lived through the worst of it.The coup was not financed nor lead from within the country.Those in power now may or may not not be true Nazis, but many of those that work for them are.Putin saved thousands of lives in Crimea, and they are grateful.The West bears great responsibility for what has happened, and for what the future will hold.

The above is only slightly OT since Putin's actions in Crimea seem so important to some.

Quite a diatribe there Zeug. You take a simple question, and you proceed to categorize me as uninformed, stupid and other labels too numerous to mention. I'm guilty of doing the same not so long ago. You appear to know a lot more about this subject than I do, but you are sorely lacking in tact and diplomacy. I suggest you take the time to learn these skills and apply them.

No hard feelings,

BudM

Hi BudM,

apologies for the diatribe but I do despair after 15 years of nonstop global warfare waged by the US and its vassals, Australia included of course. And I find the normalisation of militarism in our western societies especially troubling, its criminal hypocrisy permeates everything from our politics to corporate media, academia, policing, popular culture, everyday discourse and our national identities. This cultural mediocrity is apparently what living with fascism feels like in the 21st C!

The US and EU economies are in for another round of collapse probably sooner rather than later, probably this time it's the central banks going down the drain along with US global financial hegemony, and it seems we're being prepped with the threat of another round of world war to remedy that fact. A bit 19th century I know but it's worked before and these western elites haven't got much else to work with to ensure their global dominance. And everyone applauds Trump's blatantly criminal militarism, from Merkel to Hillary and the NYT. This US emperor is butt naked as they have all been for well over a decade now and yet ... still they applaud?

The sooner the US superpower devolves back to one great power amongst equals the sooner some degree of sanity might prevail in international relations, and the sooner we can collectively begin dealing with the threat of CC so long as they don't trigger MAD before we get there. However, the collapse of modern technological civilisation and the possible extinction of homo sapiens in a global thermonuclear war would be one way of dealing with anthropogenic climate change, but how stupid would that be?

And that's what I hear in Russiagate and all the other war propaganda, including your questions re Russian 'invasions' - the suicidal stupidity of our collective intellect. We need to become much smarter as a species and very quickly, within this current generation, otherwise the ship of fools is going down without any lifeboats after the captains blow a hole in the hull as it sails into a perfect storm. I pity the children born into this stupidity!

I am a New Zealander. I have been married to a Russian scientist and we have spent some time in Moscow and St Petersburg. I spent some time with the brother of the first man in space Yuri Alekseyevich Gagarin along with other prominent Russian scientists. -42C was pretty cool! Lovely people! Just saying... The Russians require a firm leader and Putin has provided stability for the country.

I concede that (possibly? probably? certainly?) Putin/Russia meddled in the election. I fail to understand why this is important. Money and power interfere in elections all the time. Fake news can and is generated by all sides, and secret information is uncovered and used by everyone and anyone. Russia does not ave any secret weapon that wins elections beyond what other people can and do use.The core problem - the voters are stupid and have been made stupider in a decades-long process, certainly not controlled by the Russians. In my country I believe it has been the policy of the ministry of education for the last forty years (mostly held by the same religious party over that period) to keep school children in intentional ignorance. It worked beautifully. And now when outside interference comes along, and it does, can I blame the interferer?And to those who believe that Trump's base will be eroded when the truth is uncovered, here it hasn't worked. The more proofs of the PM's horrors, the more his base is strengthened as a knee-jerk reaction to the "media attacks".The only way the Democrats can sway the election is to come up with something people will believe in and rally around, as opposed to just attacking the other side. And I agree with whoever said that potentially the environment could be one of those rallying causes, especially if the current administration wantonly destroys it as it seems to be intending.

I've been an avid observer of this forum for some months and this is my first post, I had to work up the courage!

I just have to say the U.S. has a long history of attempting to influence presidential elections in other countries. May I suggest researching Carnegie Mellon University researcher Dov Levin about his historical database that tracks U.S. involvement in meddling with foreign elections over the years.

Cheers1

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Never argue with stupid people they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain

I concede that (possibly? probably? certainly?) Putin/Russia meddled in the election. I fail to understand why this is important.

Two points:

1) So....you're saying that any leader (or leaders/countries) can interfere with elections in other countries (including YOURS) and that is not a problem with you? REALLY?

2) The most egregious part isn't Putin. It's that someone INSIDE OUR OWN COUNTRY RUNNING FOR OFFICE....would conspire with someone outside out country to effect the election. THAT....is the biggest issue. The fact that Trump and Company were dealing with a despicable leader like Putin makes it WORSE....but it would already be horrible enough NO MATTER WHO THE LEADER WAS.

Plus, it's not just about Putin, it is about the fossil mafia trying to build a global oligarchic front. It is about a U.S. national security advisor (with access to all top secret stuff) being paid by Russians, and the White House covering it up. It is about a campaign manager working for free for Trump, after he had propped up a kleptocrat Putin puppet in a failing democracy (Ukraine). Etc. etc. ... Apropos failing democracy... ummm no 'nuff said.

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Why is the earth silent at this destruction? (Martin Heidegger ca. 1937)

May 8th...will be the beginning of the "next phase" of RussiaGate: The public display. Keep in mind we are VERY EARLY in this process. Watergate was about a group of guys breaking into the Democratic National Committee....getting caught red handed.....and then exposing who knew about it and exposing them covering it up.

RussiaGate is 10 TIMES what Watergate was. In RussiaGate....we're dealing with:

1) Helping an enemy government in trying to alter the election outcome2) Funding some of the foreign involvement (that's coming....tracing bank transactions takes time....and we're dealing with banks in Cyprus, Germany, Ukraine, and other foreign countries).3) We're dealing with intelligence agencies in several other countries....especially in Europe.4) We're dealing many more people than were involved in Watergate.

Treason will be "on the table" for some of the participants..... They may not, in the end get tried for treason, but there will DEFINITELY be discussion of it....and possible prosecution of it.

The real "fun" begins on May 8th. And I do mean fun. I hope Spicey gets some rest this coming week....because beginning on May 8th....he's going to have to be at his lying best.

What we know about Flynn so far:

1) Michael Flynn LIED about his communications with Russian officials2) Michael Flynn did not DISCLOSE the money he received from foreign governments (AFTER he was warned.)3) There were SIGNIFICANT RED FLAGS (pun intended) BEFORE Flynn was hired. They were in the press ALREADY.4) Flynn continued to work at his position....and be involved in meetings.....THREE WEEKS AFTER THE ACTING US ATTORNEY GENERAL SALLY YATES NOTIFIED MIKE PENCE AND THE TRUMP TEAMabout the issue of Flynn NOT being susceptible to blackmail by the Russians because he was lying. 5) Mike Pence has already LIED ABOUT HIM NO KNOWING AT IT. It's on video. Pence pleaded "ignorance". HE LIED. In addition to Pence lying.....Donnie as well as Jeff Sessions have ALREADY LIED about their lack of knowledge regarding Michael Flynn.

Flynn is only the first of MANY...MANY people that will be swallowed up and spit out by this. The things to watch SHORT TERM:

1) Watch FBI Director Comey and Attorney General Sessions. Sessions will at some point..... fire the FBI director...maybe within weeks. The FBI is getting too close...and unless Comey "rolls over" (which I don't expect).....he will force Sessions hand. Sessions is in DEEPSHIT with Donnie. Donnie, Flynn, Sessions, and others were all in on it.

2) If I were you...I would record the testimony of May 8th with Sally Yates. It will be enlightening.

3) Keep your eyes on Korea. Just how crazy and delusional is Donnie? Pretty damn delusional. Anything could happen.

I've been an avid observer of this forum for some months and this is my first post, I had to work up the courage!

I just have to say the U.S. has a long history of attempting to influence presidential elections in other countries. May I suggest researching Carnegie Mellon University researcher Dov Levin about his historical database that tracks U.S. involvement in meddling with foreign elections over the years.

Cheers1

H2O world, thanks for delurking. Your profile has been released, so you can post freely now.

I agree with what you say, but as others have pointed out, this doesn't mean that Americans aren't allowed to be upset if Russia has indeed successfully influenced their presidential election.

However, this should also mean that from now on they have the moral obligation to no longer tolerate their various intelligence services to overtly or covertly meddle with the elections of other countries. Ever again. And get all the troops back, unless they're really somewhere for humanitarian reasons.

And to those who believe that Trump's base will be eroded when the truth is uncovered, here it hasn't worked. The more proofs of the PM's horrors, the more his base is strengthened as a knee-jerk reaction to the "media attacks".The only way the Democrats can sway the election is to come up with something people will believe in and rally around, as opposed to just attacking the other side. And I agree with whoever said that potentially the environment could be one of those rallying causes, especially if the current administration wantonly destroys it as it seems to be intending.

I still think that pushing Russiagate to get rid of Trump as quickly as possible, isn't a very smart thing to do from a strategic point of view. It may very well increase the chances of a smart Trump next time, who comes with a united Republican Party.

And who knows, maybe that next smarter version of Trump will be friends with Italian kleptocrats. Will the media then declare war on Italy?

I still think that pushing Russiagate to get rid of Trump as quickly as possible, isn't a very smart thing to do from a strategic point of view. It may very well increase the chances of a smart Trump next time, who comes with a united Republican Party.

I already thought I couldn't DISAGREE with you more.....because I was already at a level 10.....I guess I was wrong. Now I'm at 11....

If the US would "go ahead and let it happen"......then we have now set a precedent. So not only would we get "the smarter guys".....we would get more of the "dumber guys" doing the same thing.

I expect to see SIGNIFICANT CHANGES to the election process after this mess is cleaned up (and that may be as much as 2 years down the road).

There are a LOT of changes that will be made to "protect us" from people like Donnie....and to take some of the power BACK from the Executive Branch of the US govt.

In the US we have:

1) Executive Branch2) Legislative Branch3) Judicial Branch

In theory their "powers" should be approximately equal.....but like everything else in life, they swing from one extreme to another. They are now too far out of balance.

There is currently too much power in the Executive Branch. I won't get in "too deep" now....because this is a very BROAD AREA. Suffice it to say....this will scare the crap out of people in the US....so we would be REMISS if we didn't try to fix it. It would be like not putting locking doors to the cabin in an airliner. That should have been done LONG AGO....yet we waited for an event like 9-11. We can be smarter than that....

Donnie "got into the cabin of our airliner"......we can do some things to help prevent it from happening again....

Some on this forum--let's call them the "Neo-Stalinist Russophiles" in deference to their own language of choice --seem to be confused. See, people in the United States aren't that upset about "interference" by other nations. We know that goes on, and we know that the US itself has a long and murky record of meddling in elections in other nations. And people in the US aren't really filled with "angst concerning their ongoing loss of hegemonic power and the fact the Russians dare to act for their own national interests"; that's just, well, undergrad-level silliness. Hell, they're not even that upset with Russia for engaging in electoral scumbaggery around the globe; we all know who and how Putin is, so we expect it. After all, an autocrat's got to do what an autocrat's got to do, amiright?

No.

What they're upset about, see, is the strong likelihood that an American citizen and his posse of underlings worked closely and illegally with agents from a hostile foreign government to subvert our democratic process in order to put that citizen into the White House. And they're upset that that citizen--along with his political party--is now doing everything in his ample power to prevent others from looking into just how closely and illegally he worked with that foreign government.

That's it. Really.

IOW, this isn't necessarily an anti-Russia thing, or an anti-Putin thing, or even a we're-American-and-have-never-screwed-around-with-anyone-anywhere thing. No. It's an anti-treason thing. And we'd feel the same whether the aiding party had been China, or Brazil, or France, or Burkina Faso, or any one of the 194 (or so) countries on Earth that aren't the United States.

If you've been unlucky enough to have had a significant other cheat on you, certainly you were angry at the homewrecking interloper who seduced your SO to stray. But the real, deep, seething and searing pain you felt came not from that third party, but from the unforgettable knowledge that your significant other, someone who had long been part and parcel of who you are, had been disloyal and deceitful to you.

It's like that.

(Of course, that being upset is greatly exacerbated by the knowledge that the American citizen who was aided into the White House by that hostile foreign power is a hateful, bigoted, intolerant, greedy, ignorant, arrogant, science-hating, intellectually-incurious, dishonest authoritarian. But even if he weren't all those things, and more, we'd still be upset at the collusion.)

Nicely put, as usual, JP. Not sure why people can't get your very clear points.

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"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

To clarify, I don't exactly disagree with you Oren, Trump is an American travesty but did Russia actually “hack” the 2016 presidential election? NO, I think the use of that term to describe what Russia did is not accurate. The Russians hacked a few computers, but they did not “hack” an election. The media’s persistent insinuations are misleading Americans to believe that the Russians actually meddled with the election process itself, including with voting machines. There is zero evidence that occurred.

Did the Russians actually help Trump win the election? Will we ever really know? The race itself was one of the most scandal-ridden in modern history. Given these realities, any number of factors could have been decisive. WikiLeaks revelations, “fake news,” and other disruption operations often got lost in a tidal wave of “organic” bad news for the candidates. Even with Russia likely putting its thumb on the scales for Trump. It’s troubling to know that huge swaths of the American political establishment are being exposed as purely partisan.

One thing is clear: The Russian government has run one of the most inexpensive and disruptive espionage operations in history! It's factual they made a few simple hacks of the DNC, some basic online trolling, and garden-variety propaganda spread by modern means, the Kremlin has turned a superpower’s politics upside down. Putin for now has won, and the magnitude of his victory increases with each petty and partisan turn in Washington’s most consequential drama.

The bottom line, what I think? In an election where any number of factors could have influenced the outcome, we’ll never know if Russia put Trump over the top.

Logged

Never argue with stupid people they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain

I concede that (possibly? probably? certainly?) Putin/Russia meddled in the election. I fail to understand why this is important.

Two points:

1) So....you're saying that any leader (or leaders/countries) can interfere with elections in other countries (including YOURS) and that is not a problem with you? REALLY?

2) The most egregious part isn't Putin. It's that someone INSIDE OUR OWN COUNTRY RUNNING FOR OFFICE....would conspire with someone outside out country to effect the election. THAT....is the biggest issue. The fact that Trump and Company were dealing with a despicable leader like Putin makes it WORSE....but it would already be horrible enough NO MATTER WHO THE LEADER WAS.

To clarify, I don't exactly disagree with you Oren, Trump is an American travesty but did Russia actually “hack” the 2016 presidential election? NO, I think the use of that term to describe what Russia did is not accurate. The Russians hacked a few computers, but they did not “hack” an election. The media’s persistent insinuations are misleading Americans to believe that the Russians actually meddled with the election process itself, including with voting machines. There is zero evidence that occurred.

Did the Russians actually help Trump win the election? Will we ever really know? The race itself was one of the most scandal-ridden in modern history. Given these realities, any number of factors could have been decisive. WikiLeaks revelations, “fake news,” and other disruption operations often got lost in a tidal wave of “organic” bad news for the candidates. Even with Russia likely putting its thumb on the scales for Trump. It’s troubling to know that huge swaths of the American political establishment are being exposed as purely partisan.

One thing is clear: The Russian government has run one of the most inexpensive and disruptive espionage operations in history! It's factual they made a few simple hacks of the DNC, some basic online trolling, and garden-variety propaganda spread by modern means, the Kremlin has turned a superpower’s politics upside down. Putin for now has won, and the magnitude of his victory increases with each petty and partisan turn in Washington’s most consequential drama.

The bottom line, what I think? In an election where any number of factors could have influenced the outcome, we’ll never know if Russia put Trump over the top.

Logged

Never argue with stupid people they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain

The bottom line, what I think? In an election where any number of factors could have influenced the outcome, we’ll never know if Russia put Trump over the top.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But that doesn't really matter, does it? After all, a crime is a crime whether it succeeds or not; if you walk into a bank with a handgun and point it at a teller, you're still doing the time even if you walk out emptyhanded. IOW, we need to know whether Trump and his people illicitly worked with Russia to circumvent democracy, not whether those efforts were successful.

Did Trump and his cronies work with a foreign government, or is he buddies with kleptocrats from another country? And why would that be treason? Kleptocrats know no borders. Besides, it can only be treason if the US is at war with a particular country. Although we're slowly getting there. Rachel Maddow called it 'international warfare', which is pretty insane, IMO.

So, are we disapproving of an individual event, or are we disapproving of something systemic? I think it's the latter, but on the outside it looks like it's the former. Hence the polarizing, backwards, xenophobe 'Russia, Russia, Russia'. I'm sure efforts are made to get the Russian people in the same mode of thinking. Divide and conquer.

In other words, if we don't want Trump to do it, shall we from now on prevent others from doing it as well? Because Bush, the Clintons and Obama sucked kleptocrat dick 24/7. As will the next president, if you don't get rid of Trump (+ the bad people in the duopoly that serve the donor class) the right way. Why are we choosing some kleptocrat schemes over others? Only because one outsider kleptocrat who upset the usual way of doing business, grabs women by the pussy?

To me Trump is the ugly face that we didn't see behind Obama's pretty mask.

Let's call for systemic changes. Trump is a golden opportunity to do so.

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PS If Russia did successfully influence the elections (good luck with proving that, they didn't write the DNC mails or chose a horrible Democrat candidate), it would be a first, right? That would make it 80-1, according to the work done by Dov Levin that H2O world mentioned. If the score stays that way from now on, I think the world may become a better place.

I meant it would be the first time some foreign entity tried to influence US elections, as far as we know. I know that the during the Cold War era the Soviet Union pulled the same shit. I can even understand up to some level that the US and the USSR did this back then. But we've come a long way since then, and maybe this would be a good time to stop it altogether.

I meant it would be the first time some foreign entity tried to influence US elections, as far as we know. I know that the during the Cold War era the Soviet Union pulled the same shit. I can even understand up to some level that the US and the USSR did this back then. But we've come a long way since then, and maybe this would be a good time to stop it altogether.

That's the way to get a large part of the population on board to demand systemic changes. Not through 'grab 'em by the pussy' or 'Russia, Russia, Russia!'.

As I’m unknotting and organizing the data and information I have of the events of the last election year I cannot help but feel sense of apathy. My mind can't help but swing back to this intruding thought; The fact that a person will destroy herself or something else rather than surrender freedom shows how important freedom is. That is the foundation of what this country was built upon, and has slowly been chiseled away through the use of age old tools of church and state.

Im not sure if Russiagate deserves a forum at all. Is it not impossible to govern on such a grand scale when we have proven incapable of doing so, when the bigger enemy that is lurking at every corner is an overpopulated planet. Isaac Asimov is quoted as saying “Democracy cannot survive overpopulation” and I believe he is right. So what if we do find out who did what in this scandal I do not have faith that any drastic positive changes will be forthwith, it will be just another scandal to go down in the annals of history… unfortunately the last page of history with a “The End” on the page.

I wouldn't call them instances of "some foreign entity tried to influence US elections". Or are those articles saying that Vietnam and Iran influenced US elections? They're probably saying that American politicians abused events abroad to gain some domestic political goal. That's a whole different subject.

On topic: Is this a good example of how counterproductive Russiagate may prove to be:

This interview on TheRealNews YouTube channel is almost two months old (and somewhat longish), but it's about many elements of our discussions here. It's an interview with TRN chief editor, Paul Jay, about how TRN plans on reporting on the whole Russia-affair. Jay basically says that they will see how it plays out, but refuse to take the side of one oligarchic group over another (and how Trump has basically upset the 'natural' order of things).

We're not in this for partisan reasons. The partisan political angle just wants to hit him (Trump; N.) where it hurts. What does that mean? Where the media will pick up on it and make a big deal out of. We're far more interested in trying to talk to people who voted for Trump. And if you want to talk to people who voted for Trump, then just screaming about this stuff, which I think really everybody understands is quite secondary, it just means you're trying to trash the guy because you're pro-Democrat. We're not pro-Democrat, we're pro-people. So, we're trying to go after the things of substance.

.....about how TRN plans on reporting on the whole Russia-affair. Jay basically says that they will see how it plays out, but refuse to take the side of one oligarchic group over another (and how Trump has basically upset the 'natural' order of things).

That worked well for the Germans in the 1930's.....just lay back and see what happens before you speak out. What could POSSIBLY go wrong...?

.....about how TRN plans on reporting on the whole Russia-affair. Jay basically says that they will see how it plays out, but refuse to take the side of one oligarchic group over another (and how Trump has basically upset the 'natural' order of things).

That worked well for the Germans in the 1930's.....just lay back and see what happens before you speak out. What could POSSIBLY go wrong...?

They speak out all right, but on things from Trump's policies that directly affect the people. They don't join the mainstream media in the McCarthyist gossip news that is so good for ratings, and gets liberals like you so worked up they can no longer think strategically. Watch the interview. What the guy says, makes sense.

If Russiagate boomerangs and it either strengthens Trump's position (aligning the establishment oligarchs behind him through some deals he'll offer them) or makes him a martyr, it might very well prove to have the same effect as the Reichstagsbrand.

So, give Russiagate 10-15% of the attention (also to decrease tensions with Russia), and focus the rest on his horrible policies, and how the Democratic Party needs to come clean so that it can present some real, transparent resistance and win back some of the ground lost after betraying the American people so blatantly.

Getting Trump impeached over this as soon as possible, is a losing strategy, Buddy. It's only pushing the interests of another group of kleptocrats. Stop cheering for one team and against another.

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PS And let me just say that TheRealNews seems a legitimate source of information that should appeal to those worried about AGW (the main reason people come to this forum). Just check out how much videos they have on the Climate March and AGW in general.

May 8th is when Sally Yates goes to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Remember....she was INITIALLY SCHEDULED to testify before the HOUSE committee looking into the interference by the Russians into the US presidential election. I would certainly have PREFERRED to see that.....but this actually may turn out better.

The House committee is co-chaired by a former prosecutor from California......Representative Adam Schiff. He seems to be very good....very methodical.....very thorough.....and very aggressive. This may actually be BETTER to have the House question Yates AFTER the US Senate questions her. This will basically give Schiff a "second bite at the apple" (the first bite being the Senate) when the House committee gets around to questioning her. Not sure WHEN the House is going to interview her yet (is has been announced as "after May 2nd).

But now Spicey has ONE WEEK to prepare for the upcoming Senate testimony of Yates....where Yates will substantiate various things that Trump, Pence, Spicey, and others have ALREADY LIED ABOUT. This means that the Trump group will have to reply to a LOT OF QUESTIONS next week AFTER May 8th. How will they reply to Mike Pence lying about the knowledge he had of Michael Flynn....although Pence is already ON TAPE as stating he had NO KNOWLEDGE.

From a "psychology standpoint" it will be interesting to see what Spicey does. He could....:

1) Say that "Pence forgot" about that...2) Say that Pence and Trump.......really didn't mean what they said...3) Say that Trump and company.....needed to keep it silent since it was about national security...

We should know more about how Spicey and Trump will answer next weeks questions THIS COMING WEEK by how they "prepare the ground" ahead of time.

How will they answer the question: "Why did you wait 3 weeks AFTER Sally Yates told you that Michael Flynn had lied about what he had told the Russian ambassador....to fire him?"

The Trump team KNOWS some of the questions that will be coming their way next week....and I expect them to "lay the groundwork" for next week's lies THIS WEEK.

It should prove to be enlightening......

I'll be laying out a timeline WITH VIDEO CLIP LINKS of the RussiaGate issue. I hope to have that done by the end of NEXT WEEKEND....before the Sally Yates testimony. That will give people a "visual" of what we KNOW so far. I'm trying to decide where I "house that"....it may be on a special FACEBOOK PAGE.....not sure right now. But I will provide the link and I will update it from time-to-time. (NOTE: There are SEVERAL good, thorough time-lines out there already....but what I am talking about is something a little more "concise".....). The one I have been using most is by Thomas Wood):

Re: 1980. Reagan did the same with Iran to delay hostage release until after the election to hurt his opposition.

Are these not cases of foreign nations conspiring with one candidate in a presidential election to hurt the other ?

Okay, you have a point. But it seems to me that the analogy would be stronger if the Vietnamese/Iranians had gone up to Nixon/Reagan and said: We'll do this and that to make sure you become president. Vietnam and Iran didn't meddle with US elections, Reagan and Nixon did.

However, the mainstream media has framed Russiagate as foreign meddling, not as a presidential candidate using some international issue through a small party/country to achieve a certain goal. It's possible that this has all been Trump's brilliant idea and he approached Putin, but as long as we don't know, it's a case of chicken or egg.

Added to that is that Russia is much larger than Vietnam or Iran, and there's the historical spectre of the Cold War (which is why Clinton's PR people advised Russophobia as a means to an end).

I'm not sure I see similarities between Russiagate and Watergate, excepting of course the suffix. This certainly feels much more like McCarthyism and the impeachment of Bill Clinton.

Russia is presumed to be "The Evil Enemy"."The Evil Enemy" has subverted America, American Politics & The will of The American People.The American People will root out and expose The Evil Enemy in our midst by holding hearings!

Before his inauguration, the investigations began.Our patriotic media beat the drums incessantly, some would say hysterically.No thought is given to who his replacement would be if they succeed. President Gore would have been almost as disturbing to the right as President Pence will be to the left. The target, and the allegations swing wildly, was it Flynn in Moscow, or Manafort in Kiev, was it Hillary's Whitewater or Bill's dalliances?

Watergate, in contrast, was a more focused investigation into who had orchestrated the attempted burglary of the DNC headquarters, who ordered it, and who attempted to cover it up.

I think more clarity will be found if we compare Trump's plight to Bill Clinton's problems, and the Russophobia emerging, to the Red Scares of generations past.

Clinton was hobbled by investigations through both terms, and it's the fact that he did win a second term that should concern us. Many voters simply believed that TPTB were picking on him, then voted as a means of expressing their displeasure with TPTB. This mirrors the demographic that brought Trump to power in the first place, and investigating him for having won the election, rather than for choices he's made since, will only serve to strengthen his bond with his base.

McCarthy played directly on peoples fears, pushed away a powerful ally, and almost ended it all.It's an easy game to play, but it can go so wrong so easily.Arguably the American Union movement was driven into the hands of gangsters when the government abandoned them as "Pinkos". Beyond doubt we killed many good leaders as we propped up despots willing to Hate the Commie Bastards.My generation dutifully ducked 'neath our desks, pledged our allegiance with an outstretched, inverted palm, and cheered as we turned another North Korean city to rubble.

Clinton survived his impeachment, Bomber Joe isn't remembered with fondness, Why do we want to do this again?