Right Thinking from the Left Coast

Liberal NIMBY strikes again

If you have been living under a rock, you might have missed the current Obama Administration approved invasion from the south that’s been causing problems like this one, that will in the end hit us all. Me, I think this is yet another one in the many arrows in this administration’s quiver of “Destroy exceptional America” that the Obama administrations people have been running. But the real interesting thing is how the liberal left, which constantly advocates for exactly this shit, when themselves impacted, suddenly doesn’t like the idea so much.

When the pols in my deep blue state were told they were going to have to help the Obama administration hide what they were doing, they said , hell no. The same has happened in the deep blue state of Maryland. That’s the same guy that called all the people that were saying that this disaster was Obama’s doing and on purpose, evil and implied they were motivated by racism. This story repeats itself everywhere.

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“When the pols in my deep blue state were told they were going to have to help the Obama administration hide what they were doing, the deep blue state of Maryland.”

All right, you’ve got me. Even by your unique standards, there is just no way I can see that this sentence is comprehensible.’

And what does “Destroy exceptional America” mean? For starters, Brazil, Mexico, the USA and Canada are all part of ‘America’. If you mean the country called the United States of America is particularly exceptional, you’ll have to enlighten me as to why.

And you can play stupid, but you know precisely what exceptional America is. It’s what the left hates the most: the fact that America was great and successful precisely because it fought the shit the left believed and still believes in. America was the land of opportunity for those that worked hard and risked and it was the place where people could do the exceptional things. And envy and greed were not tolerated, because everyone looked up to the successful. Now it is a shit hole where only the politically connected, and then only those on the left, win big, while the rest of us are fucked over by the left. I guess that’s what social justice is.

“Land of opportunity for those that worked hard” To which era to you refer? Pre-emancipation? Pre-Civil Rights Act?

“Envy and greed were not tolerated”. What??? In the United States? The robber barons of the gilded age weren’t greedy? Or are you saying that they were greedy, but that this greed wasn’t tolerated?

“Everyone looked up to the successful”? Huh? Do you mean everyone looked up to the wealthy? Or those who were successful in artistic or athletic endeavours? Don’t people in every country look up to those who have achieved greatness? Was there an ‘exceptional’ way in which citizens of the United States ‘looked up to” successful people?

“Only those on the left, win big” Are you saying with a straight face that the majority of billionaires in the United States are of a left-wing persuasion?

Only in America. Ask the Guatemalans how Mexico treats then when they jump that border.

We can. This crisis consists mostly of Guatemalans, Hondurans and Nicaraguans showing up at the border at legal entry points.

As usual, you’re writing about Fantasy Obama, who only exists on talk radio. Real Obama is setting records for deportations and asking Congress to over-ride a Bush-era law so they can send these kids back faster.

Under Bush, the majority of immigrants that the U.S. sent home were simply “returned.” Nobody took their fingerprints or put a permanent mark on their immigration records. Instead, U.S. authorities put them on buses and sent them back across the border. Between 2001 and 2008, there were over 8.3 million of these informal “returns,” according to the Department of Homeland Security. There were, by contrast, just 2 million “removals.” Those are the more formal deportations—the ones that go through some form of individual review, with an officer if not a judge, and become part of deportees’ permanent records.

But in the second half of the Bush administration, DHS decided to up the number of “removals” and limit the number of “returns.” The government hoped to deter immigrants from sneaking back into the country by making it clear that the U.S. knew who they were—and could punish them more harshly if they showed up again. Under Obama, DHS has stuck with this policy. Between 2009 and 2012, the number of deportations and informal returns was roughly the same—about 1.6 million each. Add up all the relevant numbers, you’ll see removals are on track to end up higher under Obama than Bush (Lind’s point in Vox) but that removals plus returns will end up higher under Bush than Obama (Davis’ point in The Federalist).

One could also argue effectively that his own lax border policies have enabled this new tidal wave of illegals, so even a smaller percentage of deportations might translate into a higher total because they have more illegals to work with.

And can we finally put to bed that ridiculous notion that they are coming here as refugees? They come here because they think they will be allowed to stay, gosh, who gave them that idea?

” Real Obama is setting records for deportations and asking Congress to over-ride a Bush-era law so they can send these kids back faster.”

And how is distributing them all over the country preparing for this? Funny that you’ll take his word at face value *still*. As for Congress being the problem cut the crap. You know damn well an over-ride involves pushing amnesty for the hundreds of thousands already here and doing little to stop the flow other than promises similar to tax more cut later. That is the big problem. This latest incident is just the straw breaking the back. And you know there was an executive decision back in 2012 that set the groundwork to push amnesty. I know mid terms are coming up so I expect you’ll be doing your usual flop.

“Are you still on that? The exchange where you betrayed a fundamental lack of knowledge of the mechanics of progressive taxation?”

Varying percents on progressive tax is one thing. Your math was another.

““Land of opportunity for those that worked hard” To which era to you refer? Pre-emancipation? Pre-Civil Rights Act?”

Perhaps all of them. Were some people denied that right? Yes. Would the Left here in *America* like to deny it to all now rather than promote it for all, and cast individual responsibility and perseverance as a “white” idea to promote their European Socialism (also white, but who’s paying attention)? Yes. Alex didn’t say perfect he said exceptional, and our history relative to most in time period for time period we were which I’m sure you hate to hear but who gives a shit?.

And how is distributing them all over the country preparing for this? Funny that you’ll take his word at face value *still*.

I don’t take his word for it. I take facts for it. I realize people think that facts have a liberal bias when they won’t produce the answer they want. But as Rich’s link notes, deportations (removals) are up. Simple returns are down mostly because illegal immigration itself has been down. This is a fact, not Obama’s word.

I mentioned Obama’s 2012 EO in my previous post on my subject but, as usual, it is subject to the amnesia that grips the blog every time I criticize Obama.

The main over-ride we need is changing a BUSH-ERA LAW that blocks illegals from simply being returned if they are underage. This is the reason they are trying to find facilities to house all these minors because they don’t have the ability to process them in compliance with that law.

Oh, wait, I’m sorry. Is this the week we stop complaining about Obama’s executive orders and start demanding he issue more of them?

The guy that wipes his ass with the Constitution, flouts the legal system and makes up laws on the fly, now he suddenly gets a pass because his hands are tied by some a Bush era law? Do you really think he would sign any congressional law (the place where laws are supposed to originate) that sealed the border? Do you really think he cares at all about what 3 Republican governors (Brewer, Martinez, Perry) are asking, to deploy the National Guard?

You’re right, Alex. First, Obama invented the War on Drugs. Now granted, he was in elementary school at the time, receiving his secret muslim training. But he was precocious. Then, after the Cold War ended, he made sure that the Central America countries never really got the governmental stability they needed. This was when he was in college, conspiring with Bill Ayers. Then he used his mind-control rays to make sure that Bush amped up the Drug War in Central America and passed a law to bar the quick return of minors to their home countries (in fact, by that time, Obama and the Democrats were already directing the worldwide human trafficking movement with their goal of flooding America with welfare recipients to steal elections). Then came the final piece de resistance: an EO that made citizenship possible for people who had come here as minors and had not broken any laws. Through his secret information agencies, he told Central Americans that this applied to them so that they would flood the legal entry points with minors so that he could finally steal our elections and declare himself dictator!

This issue is typical of how the Right Wing has descended into a twisted version of itself. Take an issue, learn nothing about it, care nothing about it, just scream that it’s all Obama’s fault and we must DO SOMETHING. We don’t know what he should do and we’ll oppose it anyway. But let’s dig up some tired rhetoric about sealing the border (for people at legal entry points?) and call for his impeachment. And if anyone like me says, “maybe this issue is a little more complicated than that”, accuse them of sucking the President’s dick.

Seriously? So all these folks coming across the border all these years is because the war on drugs. Brilliant. I guess even this group coming over started their trek in the 80s but were just a little slow?Bullshit.

“Then, after the Cold War ended, he made sure that the Central America countries never really got the governmental stability they needed. ”

Or you can just say we meddled too much. One of these typical liberal bullshit lines where it could go either way depending on the day or point at hand to suit your argument. Either we didn’t do enough, got too involved, we shoulda, woulda, coulda, shouldn’t have, but 6 ways to Kevin Bacon it must have been the fault of the US. Again, I guess their trek was a little slow. Bullshit.

“This was when he was in college, conspiring with Bill Ayers.”

Whatever. I haven’t heard this one in years though.

” Then he used his mind-control rays to make sure that Bush amped up the Drug War in Central America and passed a law to bar the quick return of minors to their home countries (in fact, by that time, Obama and the Democrats were already directing the worldwide human trafficking movement with their goal of flooding America with welfare recipients to steal elections).”

Yep, Bush wasn’t all that great, and Democrat lite himself, but he’s no longer President. I guess their trek started in 2008 and they were just a little slow. Bullshit. But hey, maybe this is the Bush conspiracy do a war on drugs, pass a law written by democrats and presented by Joe Biden, and in 6 years boom then it hits. Brilliant.

“Then came the final piece de resistance: an EO that made citizenship possible for people who had come here as minors and had not broken any laws.”

Yeah that executive order shouldn’t matter, they started their trek here in 2008. Bullshit.

“Take an issue, learn nothing about it, care nothing about it, just scream that it’s all Obama’s fault and we must DO SOMETHING.”

What “learn” the typical MSNBC talking points above? No thanks.

Be sure to give aussiemuff a thumbs up when he lets us know we were and always have been at best a run of the mill country, when of course were not being the greatest terrorists ever and promoting creationism to hide the fact that we wiped out the dinosaurs.

Next up in 5 years from Hal (near election time of course). How Obamacare really wasn’t Obama’s fault, and the GOP should have stopped it but didn’t because they shouldn’t have but really should have but… you’re just a right wing nut. So there.

This issue is typical of how the Right Wing has descended into a twisted version of itself. Take an issue, learn nothing about it, care nothing about it, just scream that it’s all Obama’s fault and we must DO SOMETHING.

If you really feel that way, one has to wonder why on earth you are writing for a right leaning blog, wouldn’t that kind of vitriol secure a gaggle of thumbs up over at think progress or kos? There are many folks from all over the ideological spectrum that are not happy with the way this administration is dealing with “this issue”. But I guess it is far easier (or lazier) to label it, defining it, and marginalize it as “those crazy right wingers again, racists”.

Personally, I think it is rather insulting to say that those not happy with how “this issue” is being handled know nothing about it or even care. Those folks on the front lines, the charitable organizations, the churches, they are doing what they can but are being overwhelmed, they aren’t happy about the current situation, you think they care? Those southern border governors I mentioned in an earlier comment, their social services agencies getting over run, do you think they care or are they just chronic whiners and Obama haters? Not to mention the governors of Iowa and Nebraska, who were not even told that federal flights were sending illegals their way.

And you can scoff all you want at the those asking to secure the border, without it, there is no workable or viable immigration reform.

S8, the current crisis is a result of out-of-control drug wars in Central America, a combination of incompetent governments and US pressure to do something about drugs. If you’re going to say, as Alex did, that Obama created this crisis, you’re going to have to blame him for all of that.

Rich, I’m not talking about the people who are in the front lines. I’m talking about the political chatterers whose main concern with this issue is hanging it on Obama. I’m talking about the people who are taking buses down there just so they can shout at scared kids to go home (including one politician who harassed a bus of YMCA kids because he thought they were immigrants). Obama proposed a way to deal with this two weeks ago. Maybe it’s not the best way; maybe there’s a better way. But they’re not touching it. They’re just screaming down the heavens about how this is all Obama’s fault. If Obama is letting down the folks on the front lines, so is Congress. As I said in my post before I left, this whole thing makes me sick. We have a crisis going on and no one wants to deal with it.

If you really feel that way, one has to wonder why on earth you are writing for a right leaning blog?

I’ve been asking myself that question a lot lately. I don’t write for liberal blogs because liberals passed conservatives in bad crazy a while ago and are getting worse, as illustrated by the reaction to Hobby Lobby.

See, here’s the thing: over the last decade, my political writing has revolved around a deep hatred of bullshit. For a long time, the Left had a near monopoly on bullshit (Bush lied about Iraq; Bush was gutting spending; single payer is efficient; Algore won the election, etc., etc.). My start in blogging was over at Moorewatch responding the giant mountains of bullshit that idiot Moore produced. I do a regular feature on my personal blog on Mathematical Malpractice where I frequently show that Left Wing talking points are complete garbage.

During the Bush era, the Left was particularly deranged. We even called it Bush Derangement Syndrome. Everything was his fault; everything was planned to enrich his buddies and hurt black people, gay people, women or whatever. Some even claimed that 9/11 and Katrina were secretly planned in the bowels of the White House. But over the last decade and especially the last six years, the Right has produced a huge mountain of bullshit to rival that of the Left, including an Obama Derangement Syndrome that decrees that everything is his fault and his fault alone.

I won’t stand for bullshit, even when I agree with the basic political philosophy of the bullshitters. Because basing politics on bullshit is going to lead you to bad ideas, bad policy, bad leaders … as we saw with the last Administration, as we see with this one, as we see with much of the current GOP and Democratic parties. This has been made worse by a dim-bulb tribalism that decrees that if you accept certain facts, you’ve joined the “other side”.

The problems our country has did not suddenly spring into existence on January 20, 2009. They are the result of many years of bad policy-making out of Washington, including Obama’s years. But most of them would have been the same had we elected McCain or Romney or Giuliani or whatever GOP shill you care for in 2008 (or in 2012: http://right-thinking.com/2012/10/21/election-2012-v-the-post-party-era/). Arguably, some would have been worse. Many of them are a result of Obama expanding on or continuing Bush-era or earlier policies. Pointing out that these problems originated before Obama took office does not get him off the hook. It tells us where we’ve gone wrong in our mono-party rule and how deep the problems run. It shows that smacking the GOP around is just as important as smacking the Democrats around. More so, because the Republicans might actually listen.

The border crisis is a long time in brewing. It is a result of incompetent Central American governments, an idiotic drug war, bad anti-trafficking laws and the failure of Congress to enact any kind of immigration reform in thirty years. Saying so does not mean you absolve Obama from blame. It means you reject the bullshit talking point that this problem was solely (or even deliberately) caused by Obama and that it wouldn’t be happening if only we’d elected someone else.

Accelerated to super nova speed by Obama’s actions, e.g. his Dream Act and his immigration policy wrt ICE and how they do their job (translation, ICE is NOT allowed to do their job). His actions imply a certain hospitable and inviting atmosphere to all those non citizens who want to become citizens, and all the free stuff that it comes with, hence the tsunami of folks crossing the border.

I admit that Congress has been MIA for decades in passing comprehensive immigration reform (and without a secure border, it is a fool’s errand anyway) but after 6 years, nobody from the left should ever utter the words “It’s Bush’s fault”, on anything, whether it be our border problems, the economy, the jobless rate, or our standing within the world community. It is ALL on Obama, and any pussing out in that direction reveals an empty suit.

As far as a tolerance for bullshit, I’m not sure what you are implying, that those not in agreement with you embrace it? There are bullshitters, charlatans, on both sides, that’s why you never fall in love with any politician. You know what you believe to be right, those flying in the face of that by their words or deeds, call them out and expose them. I have never minded you railing at the GOP, for the most part it is deserved, but what I don’t like is the bullshit equivocation parroting the Obama narrative that the problems were just so immense that even after 6 years (and making everyone one of them worse) it still on Bush, man up for God’s sake and show some leadership.

Having said all that I will reiterate what I have said in the past, that you should be commended for the hard work and effort you put in to this blog. My passion for blogging has waned over the years, as has our member participation, and I know it’s not easy taking contrarian positions. Whatever success this blog has had is largely due to you and Alex.

Obama didn’t start the War on Some Unpopular Drugs; I concede that perfectly readily. However, he is President, he has a pen and a phone, and he could stop it any time he wanted. Since he does not do so, I have to conclude that he wishes for it to go on.

As for Central America, the problems there are deep-rooted and probably beyond the power of any American to solve, short of sending in the Marines and Army and doing a full-blown occupation of the place for decades and decades. That would involve, among other things, developing a very thick skin to accusations of cruelty and imperialism, and a willingness to be utterly ruthless in suppressing dissent and insurrection. I don’t see that anywhere in our body politic today. That said, I also do not feel that Central Americans have any claim whatsoever on us, and with the economy in the shape it is now in, a huge influx of skill-less, non-English-speaking Central American peasants is nothing this country needs. And before anybody starts quoting that damn poem on that goddamn statue, I would like to point out that this is not the nineteenth century, we do not have a huge frontier to absorb people, the “melting pot” has stupidly been let fall out of fashion in favor of “ethnic pride,” and we now have a huge welfare state that is already running deep in the red ink.

Accelerated to super nova speed by Obama’s actions, e.g. his Dream Act and his immigration policy wrt ICE and how they do their job (translation, ICE is NOT allowed to do their job). His actions imply a certain hospitable and inviting atmosphere to all those non citizens who want to become citizens, and all the free stuff that it comes with, hence the tsunami of folks crossing the border.

Obama didn’t start the War on Some Unpopular Drugs; I concede that perfectly readily. However, he is President, he has a pen and a phone, and he could stop it any time he wanted. Since he does not do so, I have to conclude that he wishes for it to go on.

I would absolutely agree with that. We’re six years into his reign. He can’t pretend that he just discovered the effects of the drug war on Central America. This was going on when he took office and he’s done nothing to ameliorate it.

This was going on when he took office and he’s done nothing to ameliorate it.

Nobody wants to fix this boondoggle because, like with prohibition, there is a lot of money to be made on both sides. I would have no problem legalizing drugs if I for a second believed government wouldn’t practically immediately create a whole new gigantic bureaucracy around it, – to “service” (like a bull “services” cows) the poor addicts, the that would cost as much, if not more, than the drug wars do right now, at the expense of people like me that actually make all the right choices and sacrifices rather than just doing whatever the fuck feels good because someone else will be made to pay – making things worse.

My objection is purely one of the nanny state taking away more of my money no matter what the fuck they do.

“Republicans criticized the administration for not including measures to amend a 2008 anti-human-trafficking law that provides greater legal protections for minors entering the United States from non-border countries. The Obama administration had signaled last week that it would pursue such changes in order to deport Central American minors more quickly.”

All they’ve done is “signaled”, and never included in their proposal to begin with which means provide a talking point for those that will take the Obama Administration’s word at face value *still*, and disingenuously take an, “Oh yeah we’ll look into it.” as “We’re really really wanting to roll it back but this dam Republicans.” Meanwhile back in reality it is the GOP Congress who wants an override and is serious (for once) about it.

Fact is this administration knew about this growing crisis that started in 2012 (not 2008) and did nothing, preferring to push reform that would allow amnesty and the same old get to fixing the border later, which you apparently seem to think any measure to secure the border is silly. Can it be 100% no, but we can do far better.

So yeah when I hear you talk about “facts” and that the right doesn’t give a shit about them, then proceed to bash the right with your bullshit leftist talking points I will take offense to it .

the current crisis is a result of out-of-control drug wars in Central America, a combination of incompetent governments and US pressure to do something about drugs.

Yeah. It couldn’t possibly be because of this Administration’s rhetoric, and promise to work on a ‘dream’ act, or the Vice President of the US stating the illegal aliens here are already citizens. It couldn’t possibly be because if they make it here, they get free clothing, food, education, etc. Nah, it’s gotta be the damn drug war at fault. if there wasn’t that, it would be all peace and rainbows in Central America, and nobody would be crossing illegally.

Recent days have been filled with anecdotal reports, from local news outlets in Central America to major American newspapers, citing immigrants who say they came because they believe U.S. law has been changed to allow them to stay. And now comes word that Border Patrol agents in the most heavily-trafficked area of the surge, the Rio Grande Valley sector of Texas, recently questioned 230 illegal immigrants about why they came. The results showed overwhelmingly that the immigrants, including those classified as UACs, or unaccompanied children, were motivated by the belief that they would be allowed to stay in the United States — and not by conditions in their homelands. From a report written by the agents, quoting from the interviews:

“The main reason the subjects chose this particular time to migrate to the United States was to take advantage of the ‘new’ U.S. ‘law’ that grants a ‘free pass’ or permit (referred to as “permisos”) being issued by the U.S. government to female adult OTMs traveling with minors and to UACs. (Comments: The ‘permisos’ are the Notice to Appear documents issued to undocumented aliens, when they are released on their own recognizance pending a hearing before an immigration judge.) The information is apparently common knowledge in Central America and is spread by word of mouth, and international and local media. A high percentage of the subjects interviewed stated their family members in the U.S. urged them to travel immediately, because the United States government was only issuing immigration ‘permisos’ until the end of June 2014…The issue of ‘permisos’ was the main reason provided by 95% of the interviewed subjects.”

There is growing evidence that a surge of tens of thousands of Central American minors across the Mexican border into Texas is being driven in large part by the perception they will be allowed to stay under the Obama administration’s immigration policies.

…

“After engaging with the children and U.S. personnel, my staff learned that many of the children were smuggled across the border after hearing radio ads promising they would not be deported,” Feinstein said. “My staff also heard that religious organizations are spreading the same message.”

I’ve acknowledged the 2012 EO and the role that is playing here. What I’m denying is that getting here automatically means free food, education, etc., because it doesn’t. It usually means being sent back to your own country. And labor force participation is higher among illegals than native-born Americans. Not saying we should have amnesty: they’re still breaking the law and should be sent back.

Tell me Hal – in your world, is it possible to get from Honduras to the US over land without going through another country?

Uh, dude. Panama, Nicaragua and Costa Rica are the other way. They aren’t passing through these countries. They are going to these countries and applying for asylum. Asylum requests are up 700% in those countries.

Since May 18, the Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas has been home to 1,000 illegal immigrant children, according to a report by the San Antonio Express-News. The decision to utilize the base comes as an overwhelming number of young people have been caught crossing the Mexican/U.S. border during recent months.

Children and teens brought to Lackland will be provided with education, foster care programs, and “behavioral treatment centers.” The projected cost of such programs, as well as the cost of the housing, has not been disclosed to U.S. taxpayers.

The federal government was forced to utilize Lackland as its own facilities can no longer accommodate the number of illegal immigrants waiting to be processed, reports state.

I guess they’re not eating while they are housed and educated at the airbase?

Obama has already flip-flopped TWICE on expediting deportation of these illegals vs. letting them stay, so I’m confused why you would take his word for anything in regards to the topic at this point.

Yes. I suppose they should just starve while they are waiting to be deported. I was addressing the contention that they are coming here to glom onto the welfare system, not to get a temporary bunk in a detention center. And for most of the illegal immigrants, the conditions in detention centers are appalling as has been well-reported.

Yes. I suppose they should just starve while they are waiting to be deported.

Hey, you were the one who claimed they weren’t getting free food. So I can assume you’re fine with the free education they are apparently getting while waiting to be deported? WTF are we teaching them if we are just waiting to deport them?

I was addressing the contention that they are coming here to glom onto the welfare system, not to get a temporary bunk in a detention center.

In 2010, the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes. This generated an average annual fiscal deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of around $14,387 per household. This cost had to be borne by U.S. taxpayers.

illegal immigration costs u.s. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level. the bulk of the costs — some $84 billion — are absorbed by state and local
governments.

The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost u.s. taxpayers is an annual amount per native headed household of nearly $1,000 after accounting for estimated tax collections. the fiscal impact per household varies considerably because the greatest share of the burden falls on state and local taxpayers whose burden depends on the size of the illegal alien population in that locality.

Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion. nearly all of those costs are absorbed by state and local governments.

At the federal level, about one-third of outlays are matched by tax collections from illegal
aliens. at the state and local level, an average of less than 5 percent of the public costs
associated with illegal immigration is recouped through taxes collected from illegal aliens.

Most illegal aliens do not pay income taxes. among those who do, much of the revenues
collected are refunded to the illegal aliens when they file tax returns. many are also claiming
tax credits resulting in payments from the u.s. treasury.

Los Angeles County officials believe that by the end of 2013 illegal immigrant parents will have received $650 million in welfare benefits for their native-born children, according to a CBS Los Angeles report.

Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich has revealed the most recent Department of Public Works figures showing that through July $376 million in CalWORKS benefits and food stamps have been paid out to illegal immigrant parents, the CBS affiliate reports.

One County, $650 million. One County! They may not come here to glom the system, but once here, they sure take advantage of our government’s idiocy.

Don’t get me started on the lie Obama told concerning Obamacare.

And for most of the illegal immigrants, the conditions in detention centers are appalling as has been well-reported.

I am perfectly fine if they would like to go home sooner voluntarily. As far as I’m concerned, put them all (non-minors) in Sheriff Joe’s tent city, or make them perform unpaid labor until they get so sick of it that they volunteer to go home on their own.

In contrast to lawful immigrants, unlawful immigrants at present do not have access to means-tested welfare, Social Security, or Medicare. This does not mean, however, that they do not receive government benefits and services. Children in unlawful immigrant households receive heavily subsidized public education. Many unlawful immigrants have U.S.-born children; these children are currently eligible for the full range of government welfare and medical benefits. And, of course, when unlawful immigrants live in a community, they use roads, parks, sewers, police, and fire protection; these services must expand to cover the added population or there will be “congestion” effects that lead to a decline in service quality.

So no welfare. What Heritage has done is divide government spending per citizen and apply that to illegals (i.e., the cost of roads, national defense, etc.) whether they are benefitting from those services or not. So the problem is not illegals per se … it’s the enormous government spending that it is occurring with or without them. Furthermore, if you look into the analysis, the net deficit created by illegals is actually smaller than that created by native born Americans precisely because they don’t collect things like EITC, Medicaid and so on which are the bulk of welfare spending.

Hal, I don’t know why you keep ignoring the obvious, when illegal’s cross the border it costs tax dollars to take care of them, dollars that now cannot be spent on other things. Taking Xetrov’s small example at Lackland AFB, those 1000 illegal children need to be provided for, food/housing/medical care along with providing education and counseling. All this costs money, now times this by a thousand for all the other facilities doing the same thing. Last time I checked we had a deficit problem and an unemployment problem, is this helping? Your equivocation that native borns eat up more social services is a total dodge, we know we are drowning in entitlements, so let’s make it worse by opening our borders. If you want to make the argument (good luck with that) that these folks will one day become productive citizens and pay back into the system what they are now drawing down, go with that. I think you would be hard pressed to prove that but give it a try.

Ignoring all the common sense arguments about a sovereign nation and the need for enforceable borders, ignoring the obvious risks of terrorists or criminals walking right in, ignoring the health risks that the CDC is now focused on, it is an impossibility to assimilate any and all illegal’s that come here. We do not have the social services available or the money needed to provide for them, no matter how big your heart is.

Well damn, way to shoot down my point. Except that I never said they (illegals) were receiving welfare. It must be your vacation, normally you’re more on your game, Hal.

So the problem is not illegals per se … it’s the enormous government spending that it is occurring with or without them.

But according to you in our last debate, spending is not a problem. In fact, Obama is “better” than the crazy out of control spending cowboy according to you. So I can only guess that current spending on illegals is fine by you?

Furthermore, if you look into the analysis, the net deficit created by illegals is actually smaller than that created by native born Americans precisely because they don’t collect things like EITC, Medicaid and so on which are the bulk of welfare spending.

Not if the current idiot in the Whitehouse gets his way. Per my previously provided Heritage link:

Under current law, all unlawful immigrant households together have an aggregate annual deficit of around $54.5 billion.

In the interim phase (roughly the first 13 years after amnesty), the aggregate annual deficit would fall to $43.4 billion.

At the end of the interim phase, former unlawful immigrant households would become fully eligible for means-tested welfare and health care benefits under the Affordable Care Act. The aggregate annual deficit would soar to around $106 billion.

In the retirement phase, the annual aggregate deficit would be around $160 billion. It would slowly decline as former unlawful immigrants gradually expire.

Yeah, nothing like dying of heat exhaustion in what Sheriff Joe himself described as “a concentration camp” to teach someone a lesson.

That article appears to be from 2008. Six years ago. Long before the current crisis and the people going through legal checkpoints and asking for asylum.

And yet still some 40 years after the start of the war on drugs. I’ve provided a plethora of sources outlining the primary reason for illegals coming to the US (or other countries) is not the war on drugs per your previous claim, and you just keep dodging. How about you provide some evidence in support of your claim?

And yet still some 40 years after the start of the war on drugs. I’ve provided a plethora of sources outlining the primary reason for illegals coming to the US (or other countries) is not the war on drugs per your previous claim, and you just keep dodging. How about you provide some evidence in support of your claim?

It’s not the war on drugs that we’ve been fighting in America. It’s the war on drugs that central America has been fighting for the last decade that has seen murder rates skyrocket as central american government have floundered against the drug cartels. Several central American countries are now open war zones. Try reading my link again:

A good portion of the drug trade is now in Central America and plenty of gangs capitalize on this. Incompetent police forces do little to stop them. Children are actively recruited as “foot soldiers” for cartels. These gangs give children an ultimatum: work in the drug trade or face death. Honduras’ homicide rate was 90 killed per 100,000 people in 2012. That’s the worst in the world and six times the global average. Guatemala and El Salvador aren’t far behind.

Gangs run rampant in these countries, and many children find themselves in the crossfire. It is not uncommon for children to arrive at hospitals riddled with bullets. Fifty-eight percent of children migrating north are motivated by violent conditions in their home country, according to a report by the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees.

Rich, I don’t deny that this costs money. That’s why I think we need to change the 2008 law to send minors back to their own country. I’m not arguing in favor of keeping these kids here. What I am resisting the desperate attempt to sandwich this issue into the standard immigration debate, where we decided that Obama is bringing thousands of illegals here under the promise of living the high life on our welfare system.

Let me sum this up:

1) The current crisis revolves around minors primarily from three central American countries who are fleeing anywhere they can get to escape out of control violence in their own countries. A large fraction are coming to America, others are going to other countries. One of the reasons they are coming to America is because they have misunderstood a 2012 EO that allows people who arrived here as minors before 2007 to apply for legal status.

2) They are coming to legal checkpoints and asking for asylum, so “sealing the border” is not really an issue. Because they are minors, they have to be detained under a 2008 law and have their cases examined one by one.

3) Housing them costs money. The only legal way to fix the situation is to rewrite the 2008 law to send them back.

Everything else you keep bring up is a separate issue: that of illegals sneaking across the border to find work here. That’s what the Heritage foundation study calculates is costing us $24,000 per head. That’s what Obama’s been accused of ignoring (although he really hasn’t). But that’s a separate issue from the tens of thousands of minors that constitute the current crisis at our border.

Nah, for your sake, and disregarding all of the evidence I already provided showing Illegals come here overwhelmingly for economical reasons, let’s go to the source. It took me a bit, but I found the UN report your source references.

Now just to back-track for a second, your stated reason for them coming is

the current crisis is a result of out-of-control drug wars in Central America, a combination of incompetent governments and US pressure to do something about drugs

The actual report states that of the 404 kids interviewed, 329 of them mentioned Family or other opportunities as a reason to head for the US. Yes, 192 of them (less than half) did mention violence in their society, including gangs or corrupt government as another reason for leaving, but that doesn’t discount the fact that more of them cited reasons other than gangs. Heck, 85 said they were abused in their home, and that was a primary reason for leaving. Considering only one of the interviews in the actual report mentions drugs, and that being in the context of gangs potentially forcing him to use them instead of in the context of a drug war, well, I’ll let you come to your own conclusion on that.

Technically it was your source. Nevertheless, so 329 of 404 interviewed (a vast majority of those interviewed) did not say that one of the reasons they came to the US was for family or other opportunities (page 7)?

Let’s look deeper at your 58% number.

Page 6 –

Our data reveals that no less than 58% of the 404 children interviewed were forcibly displaced because they suffered or faced harms that indicated a potential or actual need for international protection.

But read down a little further as to what exactly “potential or actual need for international protection” means, because it doesn’t equal drug or gang violence.

Forty-eight percent of the displaced children interviewed for this study shared experiences of how they had been personally affected by the augmented violence in the region by organized armed criminal actors, including drug cartels and gangs or by State actors.

Huh. 48% cite “organized armed criminal actors”, which doesn’t equal drugs, btw. But for the sake of your argument, let’s assume every one of those 48% were talking about the effects of the drug war. That’s still less than half who cited it as A reason, yet you assured us that the whole reason for the current crisis is the drug war.

85 (or 21%) of those counted (part of your 58% number) specifically cited violence in their homes as the type of violence they were talking about. Those terrible excuses for parents/siblings were just being violent for the drug war I guess.

Tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors from Central America who have recently crossed into the United States will cost state and local governments a staggering $761 million dollars this year, a group that favors immigration reduction has calculated.

The Federation for American Immigration Reform, which is pushing for reduced legal immigration and stronger border security, made its calculation based on federal government data indicating that more than 37,000 children who are part of the recent border surge have now been placed with families across the United States and are eligible to attend public schools.