and you have this moment of levity,
this uplifting feeling of amusement,

0:42:16

0:42:22

you say, "Hey, that's funny,"

0:42:22

0:42:23

and then you laugh
to communicate to others

0:42:23

0:42:25

that this violation is
actually benign.

0:42:25

0:42:28

Word of the theory's power
has spread.

0:42:33

0:42:35

Local comedian Nathan Lund
is keen to see

0:42:37

0:42:40

if benign violation theory
can rescue one of his jokes

0:42:40

0:42:42

that even he thinks
might be too offensive.

0:42:42

0:42:45

-What's the joke?

-Saying that I've been working on

0:42:48

0:42:51

a type of clear mayonnaise

0:42:51

0:42:54

called I Can't believe
It's Not Cum, but...

0:42:54

0:42:56

But that's...

0:42:56

0:42:58

-That's kind of a violation...

-That goes too far.

0:42:58

0:43:01

-Yeah, that one goes too far, right?

-It might.

-I don't know yet.

0:43:01

0:43:04

-People...

-When it gets that "Uuggh."

0:43:04

0:43:05

I also wonder if it's just too much,
like, to go from,

0:43:05

0:43:09

you know, clear mustard,
that's pretty harmless,

0:43:09

0:43:12

and then all of a sudden
I'm bringing up...

0:43:12

0:43:14

You know.

0:43:14

0:43:15

After much debate, Professor McGraw
and Nathan Lund come up with

0:43:17

0:43:20

a solution they hope
moves the joke away from violation

0:43:20

0:43:23

just far enough to be funny.

0:43:23

0:43:25

Happy to have him here.

0:43:30

0:43:31

Please give a nice
Boulder Comedy Show welcome

0:43:31

0:43:33

to Nathan Lund, everybody.

0:43:33

0:43:35

Now it's crunch time
for clear mayonnaise,

0:43:37

0:43:40

for Nathan and
for benign violation theory.

0:43:40

0:43:43

I don't have a lot of money, I'm
hoping to make some money this year

0:43:43

0:43:46

with a new product
I have coming out.

0:43:46

0:43:48

Clear mustard is what I've invented.

0:43:48

0:43:50

I'm calling it Ham Sanitizer.

0:43:50

0:43:52

LAUGHTER

0:43:52

0:43:53

So, if you see Ham Sanitizer in
stores, that's me, give it a shot.

0:43:53

0:43:58

But I'm also working on a follow-up
condiment - clear mayonnaise,

0:44:00

0:44:04

which I'm calling
I Can't believe It's Not Semen.

0:44:04

0:44:07

-LAUGHTER

-So, if you see...

0:44:07

0:44:09

If you see that, that means people
have been buying Ham Sanitizer,

0:44:09

0:44:14

if I can follow it up
with more clear condiments.

0:44:14

0:44:18

So, do I have to explain
all forms of comedy

0:44:18

0:44:21

for this theory to be right?

0:44:21

0:44:23

No.

0:44:23

0:44:24

I just have to be able
to explain comedy better

0:44:24

0:44:27

than the other humour theories.

0:44:27

0:44:29

And so, in many ways,
it's kind of a horse race

0:44:29

0:44:31

and I think I have
a pretty fast horse.

0:44:31

0:44:33

APPLAUSE

0:44:33

0:44:36

Well, freshly arrived from Colorado
in a matter transporter

0:44:36

0:44:39

that we'll be looking at
in next week's Horizon,

0:44:39

0:44:42

ladies and gentlemen, please welcome
Professor Peter McGraw.

0:44:42

0:44:45

APPLAUSE

0:44:45

0:44:47

Thank you for coming.

0:44:49

0:44:51

Come in, take a seat.

0:44:51

0:44:52

So, you think you have
a pretty fast horse,

0:44:52

0:44:54

you think your theory is pretty good
on comedy.

0:44:54

0:44:56

I mean, there's not a lot of
good competition, so...

0:44:56

0:45:01

Well, there's three main theories
on comedy,

0:45:01

0:45:04

-so let's go through those first.

-Sure, sure.

0:45:04

0:45:07

So, these are, these theories
go back 2,500 years

0:45:07

0:45:11

to Plato and Aristotle.

0:45:11

0:45:12

So, Robin will remember
some of them.

0:45:12

0:45:14

LAUGHTER

0:45:14

0:45:17

Go on. So, the first theory...

0:45:17

0:45:19

..is superiority theory.

0:45:19

0:45:21

And this is the notion
that comedy is a game -

0:45:21

0:45:25

there's a winner, there's a loser -

0:45:25

0:45:27

and we laugh at
other people's follies.

0:45:27

0:45:29

-OK, excellent, so that's the first
theory.

-First theory.

-Superiority.

0:45:29

0:45:32

And then there's release theory
or relief theory.

0:45:32

0:45:35

Er, Freud gets a lot
of the credit for this.

0:45:35

0:45:39

And the notion is that we laugh at
things that kind of release

0:45:39

0:45:44

these sort of sexual
and aggressive tendencies

0:45:44

0:45:47

that we sort of hide away,

0:45:47

0:45:48

that are part of our personality
that are not supposed to come out,

0:45:48

0:45:52

and so comedy is a safe way
for these things to come out.

0:45:52

0:45:56

OK, and the third theory?

0:45:56

0:45:57

Is incongruity theory.

0:45:57

0:45:59

-Which is the big...

-It's the big
one, it's the 800 pound gorilla.

0:45:59

0:46:02

It's the one that people sort of
spontaneously come up with

0:46:02

0:46:05

when you ask them
what makes things funny,

0:46:05

0:46:07

and it takes various forms
but the most common

0:46:07

0:46:10

is sort of a mismatch of
expectations and reality.

0:46:10

0:46:13

So you expect one thing
and you get something else,

0:46:13

0:46:16

and that is supposed to be
delighting.

0:46:16

0:46:18

OK, so those are the three main
theories in comedy,

0:46:18

0:46:20

and had been for a very long time.

0:46:20

0:46:22

-Yes.

-No-one's really given it
much thought beyond that.

0:46:22

0:46:24

So your theory is, again,
benign violation.

0:46:24

0:46:27

That's right, yeah.

0:46:27

0:46:28

So, the theory takes into account
that many of the things

0:46:28

0:46:32

that we laugh at
kind of have a dark side,

0:46:32

0:46:34

so that's acknowledged
in superiority theory,

0:46:34

0:46:37

it's acknowledged in relief theory.

0:46:37

0:46:38

That is that there's something
wrong, there's something amiss,

0:46:38

0:46:42

there's something threatening
about that situation.

0:46:42

0:46:44

But of course the things that
are wrong or amiss and threatening,

0:46:44

0:46:47

they don't make us laugh,
they make us cry,

0:46:47

0:46:49

they disgust us, they offend us.

0:46:49

0:46:52

And so you have
this negative arousal

0:46:52

0:46:55

that comes from that dark side,

0:46:55

0:46:57

and then it flips
and then you delight

0:46:57

0:47:00

and you have this positively
arousing feeling, and then...

0:47:00

0:47:03

I like to believe that laughter
is that signal that this situation

0:47:03

0:47:07

that seems wrong is actually OK.

0:47:07

0:47:09

I mean, the thing
I love about your theory

0:47:09

0:47:11

is the idea that everyone
has a different Venn diagram.

0:47:11

0:47:14

-Yes.

-Everyone's drawn it
very differently.

0:47:14

0:47:16

So something that I might find...

0:47:16

0:47:17

I might say, "Well,
that isn't a violation to me,

0:47:17

0:47:19

"I'm happy to laugh about that,"

0:47:19

0:47:21

someone else might go,
"Not on the BBC, thank you."

0:47:21

0:47:23

And someone else might go,
"You gotta give me more."

0:47:23

0:47:26

The things that are wrong, and the
things that are OK in the world

0:47:26

0:47:29

change over time.

0:47:29

0:47:31

So you listen back to old comedy

0:47:31

0:47:34

and sometimes it's horribly
offensive and bigoted now,

0:47:34

0:47:38

from our perspective,

0:47:38

0:47:39

and sometimes it's totally boring
and confusing,

0:47:39

0:47:42

and it's because the world
has changed.

0:47:42

0:47:44

And so, in many ways,

0:47:44

0:47:47

good comedy really reflects
the values of a society

0:47:47

0:47:52

and the moral norms
and the beliefs in a society,

0:47:52

0:47:55

and those are constantly in flux.

0:47:55

0:47:57

So, it's not just the individuals
that move

0:47:57

0:47:59

those kind of Venn diagrams of,
you know, where that line is,

0:47:59

0:48:01

it's a society as a whole
that moves them

0:48:01

0:48:03

and different nations have them
in different places as well, yeah.

0:48:03

0:48:06

Yes. Every so often you find
something that lasts.

0:48:06

0:48:08

I mean, it still won't last forever,

0:48:08

0:48:10

but my son is very keen
on listening to

0:48:10

0:48:14

very old Tony Hancock
radio programmes,

0:48:14

0:48:16

and it's surprising how much of that
has lasted,

0:48:16

0:48:18

probably because it was hugely
influential.

0:48:18

0:48:21

It was basically you could draw a
line straight from that to Seinfeld,

0:48:21

0:48:24

and it's quite interesting how every
so often you run across something

0:48:24

0:48:27

that's almost jarringly
out of place.

0:48:27

0:48:29

It's very interesting,
from my perspective,

0:48:29

0:48:31

the kind of comedy that I do,

0:48:31

0:48:32

the idea that no-one's ever laughed
at an offensive joke,

0:48:32

0:48:36

because, by dint of laughing,
they're saying that,

0:48:36

0:48:39

"No, this isn't a violation to me,
this is all fine."

0:48:39

0:48:41

-Mm-hmm.

-We can laugh about anything.

0:48:41

0:48:43

It's not that it's completely fine,
right?

0:48:43

0:48:45

That's the thing
that's so difficult about it all.

0:48:45

0:48:49

The things that are completely fine

0:48:49

0:48:51

is like you listening to me,
not very funny.

0:48:51

0:48:55

Right? And so, there has to be
something edgy that plays that role.

0:48:55

0:48:59

-This guy.

-This guy right here.

-I think... I really like the theory.

0:48:59

0:49:02

I mean, I really feel like
it makes sense to me

0:49:02

0:49:04

in a way that the others don't.

0:49:04

0:49:05

But I'd be very interested to know
what Sophie and Robin make of this.

0:49:05

0:49:09

No pressure.

0:49:09

0:49:10

Well, I was going to say, actually,
this is kind of interesting because,

0:49:10

0:49:13

if you look at the origins of
laughter as we have it in humans,

0:49:13

0:49:17

it actually comes from the play
vocalisation in monkeys and apes,

0:49:17

0:49:20

and what that basically is
is a comment on what I'm doing now.

0:49:20

0:49:26

When I bite you,
don't take it seriously.

0:49:26

0:49:28

So, it's doing exactly this,

0:49:28

0:49:30

it's just saying, "Look, it may look
aggressive, but actually it's not."

0:49:30

0:49:33

And I think it's...
The thing I find interesting,

0:49:33

0:49:36

and you mentioned it in the film,

0:49:36

0:49:37

is that people are kind
of appraising the situation,

0:49:37

0:49:40

they're coming to a decision
about it.

0:49:40

0:49:42

And there is
some very interesting data

0:49:42

0:49:44

showing that people will rate
jokes as being funnier

0:49:44

0:49:47

if they think
they've been told by a comedian

0:49:47

0:49:49

than if they think they've been told
by somebody who's famous but not...

0:49:49

0:49:53

does not have that role.

0:49:53

0:49:54

So, if somebody thinks
a joke's been told by Jimmy Carr,

0:49:54

0:49:57

they'll rate it as more amusing

0:49:57

0:49:59

than if they think it's been told
by Jamie Oliver,

0:49:59

0:50:01

and that does suggest
that people aren't just...

0:50:01

0:50:04

Their appraisal is including
the person who is producing it.

0:50:04

0:50:08

And I think that kind of
might speak in, socially,

0:50:08

0:50:11

to the kind of the people who you
will and won't let make you laugh.

0:50:11

0:50:14

You know, you are going to laugh
more with people you know and like,

0:50:14

0:50:17

and you may read their intentions
as being more benign.

0:50:17

0:50:20

I think that's very true
of political correctness as well,

0:50:20

0:50:22

cos I often get called out
for saying, "Oh, you're
not very politically correct,"

0:50:22

0:50:26

but I always think I am within
context.

0:50:26

0:50:27

Onstage, in front of 1,000 people,
telling jokes,

0:50:27

0:50:30

political correctness doesn't really
belong in that space for me.

0:50:30

0:50:32

So, as soon as whenever you get
called out by the press

0:50:32

0:50:35

as a comedian and they say,
"Ban this filth,"

0:50:35

0:50:37

it tends to be that they've taken it
from a comedy show,

0:50:37

0:50:39

put it on the front of
the Daily Mail

0:50:39

0:50:41

and gone, "This is disgraceful!"

0:50:41

0:50:42

Well, you shouldn't have
printed it, then.

0:50:42

0:50:45

OK, how about some good news?

0:50:45

0:50:47

Take a look.

0:50:47

0:50:48

When this man started his career,

0:50:54

0:50:56

his ideas were considered

0:50:56

0:50:58

even more avant-garde than
the buildings he now inhabits.

0:50:58

0:51:01

Today, however, he's established
a global reputation

0:51:03

0:51:06

as one of the world's leading
neurobiologists.

0:51:06

0:51:09

And all because he discovered
he could hear rats squeak.

0:51:14

0:51:19

RATS SQUEAK

0:51:19

0:51:21

You're hearing the squeaking
through the ultrasound detector.

0:51:26

0:51:30

If we didn't have
these detectors on,

0:51:30

0:51:32

you would not be hearing anything.

0:51:32

0:51:34

Once he'd heard the squeaks,

0:51:35

0:51:37

Panksepp was determined to discover
what they might mean.

0:51:37

0:51:41

One morning I woke up and said,

0:51:42

0:51:44

"What if that is laughter?

0:51:44

0:51:46

And I said, "Well, then you should
be able to tickle animals."

0:51:46

0:51:50

And we tickled the first rat,
and it chirped like crazy.

0:51:50

0:51:55

The second rat...

0:51:55

0:51:56

As a matter of fact,

0:51:56

0:51:57

every rat except some
really neurotic ones have chirped.

0:51:57

0:52:03

To the casual observer,

0:52:08

0:52:09

it might look like
the rats aren't laughing at all,

0:52:09

0:52:12

that their tiny chirps are in fact
cries for help.

0:52:12

0:52:14

But not only are the vocalisations
identical

0:52:18

0:52:21

to the noises made in play,

0:52:21

0:52:23

the rats' behaviour
tells its own story.

0:52:23

0:52:25

They are following my hand

0:52:28

0:52:30

because it's a hand
that has brought them great joy.

0:52:30

0:52:33

HE CHUCKLES

0:52:33

0:52:35

Oh, he just bit me.

0:52:35

0:52:37

-HE LAUGHS

-But he didn't hurt me.

0:52:37

0:52:40

So that's their way of indicating,
"Come on, let's play." Ooh!

0:52:40

0:52:44

-I love rats.

-HE LAUGHS

0:52:44

0:52:46

They're such fun animals,
so smart and so emotional.

0:52:46

0:52:51

As far as we can tell, we've got
the same basic emotions as rats.

0:52:52

0:52:57

But Panksepp's idea,
that rats have emotions,

0:53:01

0:53:04

did little to endear him
to his colleagues.

0:53:04

0:53:07

People say you've been giving
human qualities to animals -

0:53:08

0:53:11

anthropomorphism -

0:53:11

0:53:12

and I tell them I have not
been doing anything of the sort.

0:53:12

0:53:16

I am doing zoomorphism.

0:53:16

0:53:18

I am trying to understand
the animal mind

0:53:18

0:53:21

as a way to illuminate
the human mind.

0:53:21

0:53:25

The critics argue that
our complex brains are so different

0:53:27

0:53:30

to rats' brains that
any comparison is meaningless.

0:53:30

0:53:33

But the reality is emotions occur
in the evolutionary ancient brain,

0:53:34

0:53:40

the part we share with all mammals,
including rats.

0:53:40

0:53:43

And we know that animals that have
been bred for high laughter

0:53:44

0:53:48

are resistant to depression.

0:53:48

0:53:50

That means they have chemistries
that protect them

0:53:50

0:53:53

against the vicissitudes of life.

0:53:53

0:53:56

Animals that have been bred
for lower laughter

0:53:57

0:54:00

are susceptible to depression.

0:54:00

0:54:02

If we understand animal emotional
processes

0:54:05

0:54:08

at the fundamental instinctual
level,

0:54:08

0:54:11

I think we will have a science
of human basic emotions,

0:54:11

0:54:15

and that's very valuable for
understanding ourselves

0:54:15

0:54:19

and having a more sophisticated
biological psychiatry.

0:54:19

0:54:22

Panksepp's idea was to use
the rats' laughter to identify

0:54:24

0:54:27

the precise area in the
ancient brain involved in happiness,

0:54:27

0:54:31

and in so doing to identify
the neurochemistry responsible.

0:54:31

0:54:35

Using that approach, a group from
Northwestern University in Chicago

0:54:37

0:54:40

identified a happiness
neurotransmitter.

0:54:40

0:54:43

They call it GLX-13.

0:54:43

0:54:45

Catchy.

0:54:45

0:54:47

And they've also developed a drug
to stimulate its production.

0:54:47

0:54:50

In 2013, they started
human clinical trials.

0:54:50

0:54:54

The results were so impressive,

0:54:54

0:54:56

that two years later it was bought
by a drugs company for 560 million.

0:54:56

0:55:02

Surprising as it is,

0:55:03

0:55:05

£560 million is not bad for buying
the rights

0:55:05

0:55:09

to the most powerful item
on the horizon.

0:55:09

0:55:12

It's a new way of treating
depression -

0:55:16

0:55:18

an antidepressant that,
instead of reducing sadness,

0:55:18

0:55:21

promotes happiness.

0:55:21

0:55:23

It's an approach that shows
great promise,

0:55:23

0:55:26

and all this from tickling rats.

0:55:26

0:55:28

Rat laughter forces you to think
about the molecules of social joy,

0:55:30

0:55:35

so, you know, I am pleased and
surprised in retrospect

0:55:35

0:55:42

that we got that far.

0:55:42

0:55:45

And, you know, it's one of the
wonderful things of science -

0:55:45

0:55:49

there's always surprises.

0:55:49

0:55:51

So, that's me out of a job.

0:55:57

0:55:59

Comedy in pill form -
I suppose it had to happen sometime.

0:55:59

0:56:01

We had a good run.
LAUGHTER

0:56:01

0:56:03

So, back to our questions -
what is laughter?

0:56:03

0:56:05

Why do we laugh? And what
has it got to do with comedy?

0:56:05

0:56:08

-I think we've answered it,
haven't we?

-Yeah.

0:56:08

0:56:10

Laughter's a social emotion.

0:56:10

0:56:11

Social activity,

0:56:11

0:56:13

pre-language vocalisation.

0:56:13

0:56:16

OK. Why do we laugh?

0:56:16

0:56:18

Originally it really is designed
to allow us to bond with each other,

0:56:18

0:56:23

but actually the endorphins that
trigger out

0:56:23

0:56:25

in effect tune the immune system.

0:56:25

0:56:27

So they actually do
make you healthier.

0:56:27

0:56:29

But it's very ancient, it is,

0:56:29

0:56:31

I mean, it predates language

0:56:31

0:56:32

probably by about a million and a
half years, I would say.

0:56:32

0:56:35

Wow. OK. And what's it got to do
with comedy?

0:56:35

0:56:38

Well, comedy fundamentally
is about pointing out

0:56:38

0:56:40

what's wrong with the world

0:56:40

0:56:42

and doing it in a way
that is acceptable to the audience,

0:56:42

0:56:44

so creating benign violations
and delighting others.

0:56:44

0:56:48

Here's a question
for all three of you.

0:56:48

0:56:51

Could it be said that
laughter makes us human?

0:56:51

0:56:55

No.

0:56:55

0:56:56

-I would say so.

-I don't think so.

0:56:56

0:56:58

-It's just too...

-OK, so Robin's my favourite.

0:56:58

0:57:01

-LAUGHTER

-I get the free tickets to his shows.

0:57:01

0:57:03

I'd like to thank Robin
and the other two guests... Meh.

0:57:03

0:57:05

So, you think it...?

0:57:05

0:57:07

Well, in the sense that it does
mark a key boundary point

0:57:07

0:57:12

from which everything else spins.

0:57:12

0:57:15

And of course the big thing about
laughter is this breath control

0:57:15

0:57:19

and all this sort of
control of the musculature,

0:57:19

0:57:22

the intercostal muscles
in the chest wall,

0:57:22

0:57:24

and without that,
language couldn't have evolved.

0:57:24

0:57:27

I mean, we've literally nailed
this episode of Horizon.

0:57:27

0:57:30

LAUGHTER
I'd like to thank our guests -

0:57:30

0:57:32

Sophie Scott, Robin Dunbar
and Peter McGraw,

0:57:32

0:57:34

and thank you all for laughing.

0:57:34

0:57:36

APPLAUSE

0:57:36

0:57:38

Comedian Jimmy Carr takes over Horizon for this one-off special programme, produced as part of BBC2's sitcom season.

Jimmy turns venerable documentary strand Horizon into a chat show, with eminent laughter scientists as guests and a studio audience to use as guinea pigs. Jimmy and his guests try to get to the bottom of what laughter is, why we enjoy it so much and what, if anything, it has to do with comedy.

Between them, and with the help of contributions from other scientists on film, Jimmy and guests discover that laughter is much older than our species, and may well have contributed to making us human.