Yeah I agree with that in Denver , you dont know how you are going to react to it and so you place other road users and people around in danger which should be criminalized I think . Same as taking some medicines the Dr Gives you and driving is dangerous

But just getting stoned and chilling at home with some friends shouldn't be , Its a shame it is still in the UK tbh .

I only see people seriously change to a not-good-for-driving state when they smoke it in the movies.

It's just like alcohol. The more you consume, the more impaired you become. After a single (low alcohol content) beer, would you consider yourself to be so drunk you couldn't operate a vehicle? Well no, probably not (depending on tolerance). Same is true with marijuana use. A small dose is certainly going to produce noticeable effects on the body, but you don't become "stupid" like they depict on television. However, if you consume enough... well sure, you can get so high that you become a vegetable on the couch. I've done that too in my early years where I had consumed so much that I ended up sitting in the same spot on the couch for hours on end, because you just get 'lost in your own head.' Stupid things become hilarious, everything seems so philosophical and deep, and EVERYTHING tastes amazing.

It's all about intake amount. Just like alcohol, the more you consume, the more impairing it becomes. The frequency of consumption also affects cognitive function (anecdotal, not "proven"). My little brother used to be an extremely intelligent person... beating almost anyone at logic/strategy based games (chess, StarCraft, turn-based PVP, etc). At around 16, he became a huge stoner, getting high all day, every day. When I speak to him nowadays, he can barely entertain a coherent thought and is completely scatter brained with wild ideas and just stupid conclusions... and his vocabulary has been degraded to "Whoah Duuuuuuuuuudddde, that's trippy." That's what a decade of heavy use does though. Too much of anything is a bad thing. Hell, drinking too much water at one time will kill you.

Sensible, infrequent use (IMHO) causes no harm or permanent damage, and should certainly not be illegal.

__________________
Me: You'd think as the dominant species we wouldn't be so effing stupid.
J: We're just intelligent enough to be completely effing stupid.

Personally, I think everything should be legal. Why not? If someone overdoses on Heroin... well it's probably better they're out of the gene pool anyway.

Criminalizing a personal choice is not the answer.

Whether drugs is legal or illegal is up to governments who make the law.

For your above comment I wonder how you would feel if it is some one you love, sister, brother, teenage son or daughter etc, remember hard drug users start with the so called harmless drugs, something to think about.

Whether drugs is legal or illegal is up to governments who make the law.

So a totalitarian government is ideal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMM

For your above comment I wonder how you would feel if it is some one you love, sister, brother, teenage son or daughter etc,

I love my children more than life itself; at the same time, I take a very strong stance on personal accountability. That's not to say that I wouldn't help, but if my son (in his adult years) chose a course of action, who the hell am I to tell him how to live his life? That's his decision and therefore, his debt, regardless the cost. If he were to overdose on a substance, I'd be extremely torn up about it... I'd be devastated. Just because I mourn the loss of a loved one does not mean however, that I have a right to deprive others of personal choice and freedom. How many alcohol related deaths happen each day? Should we go back into prohibition over it?

Studies (example) also show that making drugs illegal only exacerbates the problem. People are going to do what they want, regardless of the law. So why waste time and money by trying to prosecute them for a personal decision? Then spend even more housing them in jail for years on end? Why not just legalize it, and offer help to those who need it? Less money and less of a problem. If they overdose... then that's what we call natural selection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMM

remember hard drug users start with the so called harmless drugs, something to think about.

I see where you're going with that, but it's a logical fallacy.

1. Mary started with Marijuana and later died of a heroine overdose.
2. John tried Marijuana
Therefore:
3. John will die of a Heroine overdose

That's bad reasoning.

I've used Marijuana for years, sometimes heavily, other very infrequently, and others not at all and don't use anything harder than alcohol these days, and very rarely at that. When I was 17 however, I got addicted to crystal meth. Was it the Marijuana I had tried months earlier that got me to Meth? No, it was my "best friend" who offered it to me, at which point I made the conscious decision to try, and then continue use. For that decision, I suffered consequences for my actions. Was it my friends fault that I got addicted? No, I chose to try it... there was no gun to my head. In that moment, I certainly wasn't thinking "I wonder if this is better than weed... let's find out because weed is awesome!!!" Rather, I had several issues in my life at that point that put me in a place where I would try and do just about anything because I was mad at the world and had a 'who cares' attitude. Again though, it was certainly not because I smoked some grass once or twice before that.

__________________
Me: You'd think as the dominant species we wouldn't be so effing stupid.
J: We're just intelligent enough to be completely effing stupid.

I love my children more than life itself; at the same time, I take a very strong stance on personal accountability. That's not to say that I wouldn't help, but if my son (in his adult years) chose a course of action, who the hell am I to tell him how to live his life? That's his decision and therefore, his debt, regardless the cost. If he were to overdose on a substance, I'd be extremely torn up about it... I'd be devastated. Just because I mourn the loss of a loved one does not mean however, that I have a right to deprive others of personal choice and freedom. How many alcohol related deaths happen each day? Should we go back into prohibition over it?

Studies (example) also show that making drugs illegal only exacerbates the problem. People are going to do what they want, regardless of the law. So why waste time and money by trying to prosecute them for a personal decision? Then spend even more housing them in jail for years on end? Why not just legalize it, and offer help to those who need it? Less money and less of a problem. If they overdose... then that's what we call natural selection.

I see where you're going with that, but it's a logical fallacy.

1. Mary started with Marijuana and later died of a heroine overdose.
2. John tried Marijuana
Therefore:
3. John will die of a Heroine overdose

That's bad reasoning.

I've used Marijuana for years, sometimes heavily, other very infrequently, and others not at all and don't use anything harder than alcohol these days, and very rarely at that. When I was 17 however, I got addicted to crystal meth. Was it the Marijuana I had tried months earlier that got me to Meth? No, it was my "best friend" who offered it to me, at which point I made the conscious decision to try, and then continue use. For that decision, I suffered consequences for my actions. Was it my friends fault that I got addicted? No, I chose to try it... there was no gun to my head. In that moment, I certainly wasn't thinking "I wonder if this is better than weed... let's find out because weed is awesome!!!" Rather, I had several issues in my life at that point that put me in a place where I would try and do just about anything because I was mad at the world and had a 'who cares' attitude. Again though, it was certainly not because I smoked some grass once or twice before that.

You got to make a stand somewhere in life & reading between the lines you know drug use is a scourge on society, it does a lot more harm than good why make excuses to legalize it.

What are you going to legalize next, petty theft, rapists, murderers cause people will still do these crimes.

You got to make a stand somewhere in life & reading between the lines you know drug use is a scourge on society, it does a lot more harm than good why make excuses to legalize it.

You're absolutely right in your statement about making a stand and [certain] drug use having only negative effects. Where I disagree is with both the justice and effectiveness in criminalizing it. To expand;

re: Effectiveness
Several countries (Poland, Mexico, others) have actually seen a decrease in drug use by legalizing it. The number of drug related crimes, the number of users, and the financial burden on the public has been decreased by making it legal. Surely you're aware that we naturally tend to gravitate towards things we're told not to do, that's just human nature. Perhaps the legalization takes away the allure of it? I can't tell you exactly why legalization reduces consumption/addiction/injury, but real-world application shows us that it does.

re: Justice
including the rest of your post

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMM

What are you going to legalize next, petty theft, rapists, murderers cause people will still do these crimes.

No. Where I draw the line is when actions impact others. Correct that those will continue regardless, but those step outside the realm of "personal" freedom, as they infringe on the livelihood of those who did not choose to partake.

Story:
Jane is sitting at home enjoying some weed. As the time goes by, she continues to consume more and more weed, to the point now that she is completely trashed. Jane decides she wants a chicken burrito, grabs the keys to her car and heads to her local drive through. On the way, the impairment from the weed is starting to become very impacting, to the point that she crashes her car into another motorists and causes a fatality. Jane is found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and driving while intoxicated.

Now, replace the word "weed" with "alcohol" and tell me how it's any different? Marijuana is far less dangerous than alcohol, but that seems to be the 'sacred cow' when these discussions start. We should treat it just the same. You can enjoy all you want as long as you don't disturb others or cause bodily harm. When that happens, then those violations will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

It's an interesting debate because we know that drug use itself drives some of these actions. The next reasonable conclusion is that we criminalize and implement deterrents. The reverse though is true, that legalization reduces use, and re-allocating funds that would normally be spent on enforcement to be spent on treatment gives greater gains.

Now, the next question (I'm guessing) is where is the line drawn on legalizing hard drugs?

Well, I don't know the answer to that. I certainly wouldn't want to go grocery shopping and see meth-amphetamines for sale. So perhaps that's a different discussion altogether. At the same time though, if Joe the crackhead makes some and uses in his house... that's his personal choice and right. I would strongly recommend that nobody ever even touch that crap, but again, my negative experience isn't grounds to strip others of their choices, however poor.

__________________
Me: You'd think as the dominant species we wouldn't be so effing stupid.
J: We're just intelligent enough to be completely effing stupid.

One thing that annoys me about the whole drug debate is that people forget about two widely available and legal drugs which completely skews everyone perception . Alcohol and Tobacco are perfectly legal . So surely we should use that as our baseline for what else should be legal

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMM

remember hard drug users start with the so called harmless drugs, something to think about.

leave you to your topic.

And by that logic all drug users start with Alcohol so therefore we should go back to prohibition .

I personally think we do need to draw A line , in my opinion Heroin for example should be illegal because it serves no recreational purposes it merely destroys lives . But Marijuana which can be used perfectly well in a recreational way without an instant addiction which just ruins everything you have going on in your life . Im not disputing that Marijuana can't wreck lives btw . But then so can alcohol , hell even readily available other the counter painkillers can wreck lives as well But thats down to the user not the substance .
I remember reading a study that suggested that cannabis amongst other drugs poses less risk of both physical harm and dependance than both Alcohol and Tobacco which are widely accepted as legal drugs . Therefore for me there remains no reason to keep it illegal .

Just to single out heroin only is nonsense, any drug legal or illegal will have a impact & can destroy lives.

I'm not singling out heroin I'm just using it as an example out of one of the worst drugs out there , just to confirm stuff like crystal meth , cocaine amphetamines and ketamine should be illegal still in my opinion they are far too harmful with far too high a potential for dependance to be used in an occasional manner as a recreational substance .

I agree with you that any drug regardless of legal status can have an impact and can destroy lives even over the counter painkillers have a potential for addiction but that doesn't help us when deciding what should and shouldn't be legal .We could talk all day in anecdotal terms about "I know someone who got addicted to painkiller" or "I know someone who tried weed and then went and died of a heroin OD " But It is better to talk in terms of facts which is where we will go back to the point you where making

You said we need to draw a line which I agree with .Seeing as a society we seem to accept Alcohol which is a drug being legal we have clearly drawn a line at a level that we feel it is acceptable for a drug to be in terms of harmfulness and potential for dependance , and as marijuana falls below this level I would argue it should be legal for this exact reason . Do you have any rebuttal to that factual based approach of deciding what should be illegal ?

If you disagree that weed should be legal how can you accept the continuing legality of tobacco and alcohol both of which do far more harm and have far higher chances of dependance ?