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Monday, March 3, 2008

What we delete

Boy, I've been seeing crazy posts and been getting crazy emails from people that think we're out there deleting music, movies, software, you name it and suddenly we are the boogeyman for everything. We've said this in many ways and in many places, but we're only concerned with our material, this includes about 20,000 releases from our various supporters. As I peruse various blogs, I see people complaining of deleted posts from a year before we started, so I imagine we aren't the only ones, but probably the only really open and honest ones about it, so we also take a lot of heat. I've seen so many conspiracy theories about how we will shut down a blog and then take the url over and put junk on it and all sorts of things, none of this is true. The problem for a lot of bloggers is when they have our stuff up there and we file complaints and the whole thing gets shut down. I've seen all sorts of bloggers say "well, just tell me and I'll take it down", we've tried that and guess how many have taken it down? exactly zero. So now we don't bother, we just file complaints and whatever the colateral damage is, well, so be it. You folks that are doing this are creating your own problem.

45 comments:

True.I just want to point out that even if there is some blog somewhere that would take it down per request I don't agree to that as a working system.

The blog owners must ask the copyright owner for permission.

I assume that at least the person running the blog has a copy of the album so that he/she can find out if it's the band who are the copyright owner or if they have licensed, or maybe sold, it to a label.

All other ways is disrespectful towards the artist.

And...no, I am not speaking about some extremely rare releases from the sixties that was only printed in 100 copies and the band is now dead and there is no CD re-issue available and no one knows if there are any copyrights involved.

But I think one must check up also these first because, there are surprisingly many rare hard-to-find albums that actually is released on some small label somewhere.

Whisperme, I'm a bit confused by your question. Prog Against Pirates itself doesn't have any income so it's not in a position to support community projects. It exists purely to raise awareness of the problems caused by Internet abuse and to protect the interests of musicians and the record companies that are trying to help them.

However most of the PAP members run small record labels and over the years we have between us spent probably hundreds of thousands of pounds financing musical projects which otherwise would never have been heard (often with little or no profit to show for it).

So we have done plenty to encourage talent and and creativity. Blog sites make it very difficult for us to continue to do that if they are giving our releases away for free as it leaves us with no money to invest in new projects.

Anon.......... you hate us guys? is that the same "hate" a three year old has when he has to eat vegetables, or is that a real, rationally based hatred based on some wrong doing on our part?

Illegally "sharing" music that you do not own the copyright to is wrong. It is illegal and it is putting musicians into a position where they can not continue. Getting caught doing a wrong thing is gonna make some folk angry, BUT that doesn't shift the wrong doing, stamp your feet all you like, go on, and slam your bedroom door too, such adult behaviour!

There is a project being organized at this moment to distribute music of the labels and artists involved in this project, "Prog Against Pirates," all over the web along with a full out boycott on recordings, events, merchandise, etc. From private torrent trackers, to blog sites to P2P networks, the recordings will be uploaded beyond your control.What do you people actually think you're dealing with? Do you really think you can make a change in all of this?

First lets ignore the sheer idiocy of your comment and deal with the inconsitancies.

#1. You pirates like to say no one would pirate our music because it sucks, yet, here you are claiming you're pirating it.

#2. We only "share" so we can discover a new artist, but here you are showing that this is not in fact what you are doing because you are throwing around the piracy as a club that will destroy our businesses, so you've just proved the point that piracy is killing music.

#3. How pathetic a group you must be (if you really exist, which I'm sure you don't) that your response to people saying "don't pirate my material" is to pirate more of it to "teach them a lesson".

You must be confusing me with someone else. I am the one who posted about the project to distribute as much PAP music as possible and it was my first post.I never stated that I hate your music. The fact is, I don't care for it, pretty dated sounding, especially the vocals. But that is besides the point. We wish to make your music available for those who do want it. What has been put up is not being downloaded very much though - in case you are wondering. We don't expect to teach you a lesson or change your mind - you seem like a strong bunch who will stand by your views and that is good. I respect that. But we are also a strong bunch looking to steer the music business in a different direction, which is obviously happening. Look how scared all of you are . . .And of course we wish to remain anonymous, if you really want to hunt us down I'm sure you could.Though I am still curious to your answer from my last question: Do you really think you can make a change in all of this?

We're referring to the common comment when pirates are confronted and say they don't like the music. I must say though that I'm impressed that you've managed to listen to the over 10,000 albums represented by this group and managed to determine they all sounded dated.

I will give you credit for at least owning up to the fact that stealing music isn't about previewing it, it is about not paying for it, and you also realize it has a negative impact on bands, otherwise you wouldn't be wielding it as a weapon.

Yes, we do believe we can make a difference, we already have, that's why you're here.

Are you using cheap argumentative tactics or is it just another case of the problems of communication over the net?How specific should I be? Of course I haven't heard all 10,000 albums. I was obviously referring to what I heard. And listening to your radio station as I write this I stand by it.I never said I was wielding anything as a weapon. How did you come to that conclusion?You decided to delete your music from MP3 blog sites with your own personal morals behind it. That's fine - good for you. We believe that all music should be available for download. We also have our morals. That is all. You did your part and we do ours. No weapons involved.And for your information, a large part of the people that make up MP3 blogs and torrenting, not to mention the group I am invloved in, and those who stand by our sides are musicians. From amateurs to very big names. I am sure you have read about them.Your last statement:"Yes, we do believe we can make a difference, we already have, that's why you're here."I'm sorry, I don't understand this. Your aim was to get me to visit your blog?

You make a blanket statement about the type of music and when you're called on it, you feign outrage. There are a dozen or so songs in this player, my radio station has over 20,000 songs, including bands like Magma and Djam Karet, so obviously there is a wide variety.

Do you really, honestly don't understand the implied threat in what you've come here and posted? If that is the case, that is almost more troubling than what you consider to be morals (theft).

I believe that everything you own should be given to me. So, give it to me. That sums up your argument for what you are doing.

Hansi made a very good point. If you have a killer idea, then make the investment and do it. I've personally spent over a half million dollars on developing my label.

I would imagine that you and your helpers here were all well prepared for a storm of arguments against what you are doing and I am sorry to be just another nay-saying thorn in your side.Obviously we all love music here. That is a beautiful thing. We disagree in how to distribute and a common business practice. As I stated in my last post I am also a working musician, not a label owner mind you. Though I do invest in most of my time, energy and money into music. In contrary to what you suggested in your post.You can go ahead and form your little group of pirate haters and do the best you can to save your label but in the end remember this: times are changing and those changes are far more powerful than you are. There is more music than ever available throughout the world. More bands and labels are springing up every day. There is so much music out there to choose from that your music, like mine, can easily be pushed aside and forgotten against everything else. You are making a bad name for yourself by doing this. You spent half a million dollars on your label and you are scared to death that you will lose it all due to the changing of times so you are doing your best to stop that from happening. But guess what? It will happen and you know it and that is why you are so scared and while you are all hung up on trying to fight it the world will already have changed and you would have missed out and vanish. There is other music out there that your fans can enjoy and they will migrate towards it because they know better, they know how to adapt with the times and keep up with what they want. I am no threat. You are the threat. To yourself, your own music and your label. People like me believe in creating music and to help provide all music to music lovers the way they want it. As someone else already stated: you seem to have lost your appeal for the progressive, haven't you?

Yaaawn...Why is it always that when pirates have no arguments they go for the "you are not progressive"-nonsense?

Hey guys, it's simply like this. Stop stealing music. If you want to give away your own music, please do, but don't tell others that they shall give away their for free. There is no existing good reason why anyone else than the creator of the work should decide what to do with it.

What's the matter with all you idiots who think you shall decide for the artists about their work?

"People like me believe in creating music and to help provide all music to music lovers the way they want it."

Which doesn't give you the right to use other people's music without permission.

And thanks for the insults (afterall how can i know which music should be called prog and which not) which i am more then used too by now.

Btw could you please mention your band and the music you brought out instead of posting anonymous without any consequences. Afterall why should you worry we know about you since you give away your musicfor free.

"Yaaawn...Why is it always that when pirates have no arguments they go for the "you are not progressive"-nonsense?" - Hansi

"What's the matter with all you idiots who think you shall decide for the artists about their work?You believe you are God or something? Stalin perhaps?" - Hansi

You wanna throw out the old "Yaaawn" card on me? Look at your method of distributing music, your arguments and statements in your blog and even more so, but maybe a bit unfair for me to say, your music.

As for a detailed plan of the "new business model that everyone "must" go to" - obviously another cheap attack used keep up your bogus argument. How can there be a complete blueprint for such a huge change? We are in the process of change now, aren't we? I don't know where all this will take us and neither do you. I know the path we are on. A path you people refuse to take. I don't believe everyone must abide by what is happening. You can fight against it all you want. But it will carry own without you taking your music along whether you like it or not.I would think that you have read the following essay after the fall of OiNK:http://www.demonbaby.com/blog/2007/10/when-pigs-fly-death-of-oink-birth-of.htmlAdmittedly a bit biased and maybe a a little kiddish for you old folks, but it does open up some good points and helps explain a possibility for the future of music distribution and why your views will fail.Again, if you are interested in other musicians that support file-sharing and pirating and changing the practice of labels then do your own research. I don't feel the need to open my doors and let you into my house.Obviously, copywrite laws are seen as ridiculous and should be ignored. They are not of our concern. We don't care if you don't give us permission to distribute and give away your music. We will. It is unstoppable at this point. Argue all you want, start all kinds of anti-pirate groups, be active in what you believe in. It will not stop us. You music will be shared, stolen, used without permission, however you want to look at it, no matter what. You have no power to stop it. You have no power to stop it.

You don't even have a vague clue, let alone a detailed plan of the business model. You've got these self righteous sense of entitlement and until you get violated, you'll keep it. The day someone mugs you and cuts your face open with a blade to get what he wants, you might decide that stealing isn't so great on the receiving end.

What you also fail to realize is that we HAVE in fact been working with lots of different models, all of which are oriented to satisfying the excuses that pirates use, but what we find out is that they are in fact just that, an excuse.

Actually you will get stopped if it is only you stopping yourselves as more and more of you have huge legal fines levied against you and internet providers are required to provide your information and you get banned from having an internet account. At some point most of you will stop.

I've said it before, you're here precisely becaue we've made a difference, enough of a difference that affected you so you came here to spout off about your alleged group of conspiritors (which doesn't exist or I'd know about it, prove me wrong).

There isn't a system or site that I haven't found and gotten in to so far, you want to talk about not having the power to stop someone, well, you can't stop us. Legislation is in process to require places like rapidshare, megaupload, badongo, blogspot to be held responsible for their content and when they are, you can bet your ass they aren't going to take the fall for you, same as the torrent sites.

This "new business model" line that keeps getting trotted out by the illegal downloaders is just a pile of crap. There's no business model on earth that will ever compete with stuff that's free, and to try to look for one is a total waste of time and energy.

Much more sensible to declare war on the downloaders and the Internet services that enable and encourage them to steal and cheat.

Illegal Downloaders and File Sharers are just going to have to accept that they are on one side in the war and musicians are on the other and that's a situation that they created, not us. We'll never meet in the middle. Let battle commence.....

You know what is fascinating? something like 98% of the idiotic posts are coming from people in Turkey who are coming from prognotfrog. Those very same people mind you, including the guy claiming he is part of some huge group pirating our stuff on P2P's, all claim over at PnF that they are only looking for out of print material. The lies drip from your lips like foam from a rapid dogs mouth.

I am not from Turkey.I am not claiming to be looking for out of print material.I don't post anything over at PnF."The lies drip from your lips like foam from a rapid dogs mouth" is a pretty bad metaphor.Let's look at who lies. You claim to know all the pirate sites, trackers and MP3 blogs n the internet.You say all musicians are against music pirating and that they are on your side. How unaware are you? Or is it just lies to falsely support your opinion?Also, you are not publishing my responses anymore. What kind of service are you doing for your people if you give up a legit argument? Are you feeling defeated by my words that your are scared to post them? Let's look back, shall we:

You make a lot of assumptions and it's obvious how scared you are of what is happening from your response.If you failed to find the model that music lovers want than I think you are the one who doesn't have a clue. As stated before, it could be just your music. What is the general age group of your fan base? I can probably come up with a rough estimate but I'm sure you know better than I do. Younger people are what drive the music business if you like it or not. We will not be stopped. We are all sure of that. I am no expert in the law of controlled narcotics but it could be used as a good example of what is going on with us. Look at what a mess that has been through over the past few decades. Drugs can not be stopped. No matter the degree of punishment involved. No matter how many anti-drug activists emerge. It is considered wrong, immoral, a crime but still it moves on. In other words, since people have gotten a taste of pirating music they will continue to grow and persist with what it is they do and you can't stop it.Therefore, you saying that at some point most of us will stop is crazy. I think you already now this. That is why you are so scared.You claiming to be the all knowing God of music pirates is quite funny. Ignorance and lies will not get you far in an argument. What do you know about private music trackers? Maybe a little but I doubt you have access to or are even are aware of most of what is out there. Beyond that, there are even more communities and technologies that are developed on a daily basis that are on our side. And, no, I don't think you made that much of a difference. You took down a few of your albums. Maybe you made a few more people aware and believe in your views. You are merely involved with a small community of pop prog. Most people don't care about it. Some people are even glad that you are removing your music from the internet and shrug it off. No, you are not doing much - how illusioned are you?

funny how you assumed it was you I was talking about when I said stupid. I know you're in Drammen Norway coming from the 13th floor with their idiotic post about me. I've invested over a half million dollars in music - how much have you?

You probably have no idea about how many times we have seen your kind of comments. Looooong comments going on about this and that and "we can not be stopped".But it's just empty words from someone who's ethics are totally out and who is trying to make other's believe that criminality and irresponsability is justified

1) Why the hell are you here then when nobody on this planet wants this music

2) Why the hell are their (not ours since i am not part of labels/musicians here) albums being downloaded by the thousands? You're saying those downloads have been done by people who hate the music?

Gert

btw. Turkey is well known for the download-community and all the illigal stuff they are doing. Hope you also understand that the big guns are aware of that too. You really think the Turkish goverment wants to risk anything when the big guns shoot the downlownloading criminals from the net?

the rare micro-issued stuff are the most tempting. the in-print mega label stuff can be bought steeply discounted at your local used cd store or even from the likes of amazon or gemm. the ones that i gotta admit i have d/l are the ultra rare micro pressed stuff that unless you are in tight w/ record collecting community, alot of that stuff just moves too quickly. the deleted micro print or oop stuff that i got when i was living in the world of cassette tape trades would seem to make you feel that it was no different in the digital age. i just wished that mindawn could offer the same pricing for the ultra stuff that is only ultra rare because they press so few physical units. shawn, if you could license half the rare stuff deleted you'd make out like a bandit or at least get a bigger hunk of my wallet than you do right now.

you guys are getting pay by some lables, thast for sure, if not how come you just demand some music to be removed and not all prog?prog does not sell out to mainstream, you are doing so.

besides, this is riduculus, if i get anything deleted i would ( just for fun) upload to multiple servers, host in torrent, post in any blog, forum i can get, just for fun, so, srsly whats the point of this if not, you ppl getting money. well, can blame you guy, i dont make money out of torrents, but cant blame you for getting money anyway you do, worlds a bitch, at least you guys are eating well, right?

Free distribution of music is killing record labels, not artists. Any artist today can record their album at home and distribute it in the internet for free and get to perform some concerts. So fuck the record labels, I really hope the mercenary labels die and leave room for real artists spread their music. Access to culture should not be limited by how much a person can pay for it. Access to culture should be free. The ones who can afford it do, like me. I can pay for it and I pay, but there are those who can't. All I do is upload the material for those people.

Pirate hunters are part of a group of people that is builting a corrupted society where all that count is money. If you don't have it you can't have anything else. Fuck that.

Music is for everyone. Culture should be spread among the globe FOR FREE. I'm a musician too, and all the records of my band were given away for free, dispate the fact that we paid to record it. Why we did that? Because the money we make is with our concerts, and because we want everybody to have access to our music. Money is not the essence, music is.

So fuck everybody who thinks that free distribution of music is wrong.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You have no clue whatsoever about the costs for good recording equipment. Also, most artists prefer (but can not afford it today) to record their music at a professional studio with a professional recording engineer so that they can focus on the performance. If musicians could afford this we would have even higher quality music to enjoy. It is also a strange idea that the bands should work for a year or two just so that you and your likes can enjoy thier work without giving them something in return.

If you knew anything about reality for most musicians you should know that a small tour is an economic loss and that the bands hope to sponsor it by selling CD's.

And...what about all the artists that don't perform live?

The only corruption I see here is the twisted ideas that you and your friends want to force upon the artists against their will.

Why do you think they want to have their music released on a record label? Why don't they do it in the fashion you mention?

I know what are the costs for a decent recording studio, I know how much costs to record a decent album and I know its all expnsive. But te fact is, good studios are part of a big company, wicth also has his promoting agencies. Those agencies are the ones who sustain the whole investment.

The reason why atists want a record label is because a big record label has all the contacts to promote the artists in the media. Quality of recoding? Well, anyone can record an album at home with extraordinary quality. If you can't you suck ass as a producer.

I'm an artist an I'll figh for free distribution of music because thats what competent and non mercenary artists do.

I have never, and I believe I speak for all PAP members, had anything against if bands, like yours, want to give away their music for free. Absolutely not. The point is that you are abviously fighting for "the right" to force your will onto other artists. If they don't want to give their music away for free you should respect that.

Your "fight for free distribution of music" is showing that You think that You have the right to decide about Others work. You act like some kind of dictator. I sense that you have very hight thoughts about your own works and that's ok but you should keep your hands away from others music and let artists themselves make the decision about if they want to get paid or not.

Your arguments are solely based on your own idea that You shall decide about others music. Kind of disgusting.

So, you think that all artists on our list is incompetent? You are better? Geeeshh...soon you are telling us that you are God.

so articulate. all YOUR stuff was deleted? You own the rights to everything on your blog? We aren't the only ones fighting piracy chuckles, just the few that are public about it. Tell me, what free stuff got deleted? Oh wait, you can't because it didn't exist.

your are correct. I'm doing something based on what I think its right. I am, indeed, forcing my will to other artists. But I do this because I believe that's the way to build a better world. I believe in culture, to spread music arround the world for free. Artists who disagree with this will have to accept this new reality. There is no way to stop that.

Dear Anonymous,

people come here as anonymous and ask me to put the link to my band? Fuck you!

As I said, when I can buy stuff I buy, but there are those who can't afford to, specially because in my country everything related to culture is very expensive. A prog album here costs something arround U$40 to U$50. Thats absurd, how am I suposed to afford various cd's every month?!

When you admit that you are forcing YOUR will on OTHER ARTISTS you at the same time are admitting that it is ok for OTHERS to force THEIR WILL on YOU.

I am not anonymous, would you mind giving out your bands name and links so that I can listen to the fantastic music you create? I understood from your previous posting that your music is much better than most other music - especially music by artists who prefer to get paid so they can be professionals - so, I really would like to enjot this extraordinary music of your band. Please post some links. Ok?