In the third and concluding part of the interview with Javier, we continue to explore the use of Healing plants and Ayahuasca. discusses his involvement with the shamanic Plant medicines of the Amazon, and Ayahuasca in particular. Javier was interviewed by Howard G Charing and Peter Cloudsley in the Peru, Amazon Rainforest 2000.

Howard tells story of his battle with one of Javier’s assistants 3 weeks earlier.
(Javier laughs a lot and explains.) Well because he was not really a shaman, he works as a guide, he drinks liquor. Then when he takes Ayahuasca and chants icaros he is not pure and his doctors don’t take any notice of him. The spirits start bothering (molesting) the people participating in the session. That is what happened to Howard. When I take Ayahuasca I talk to the doctors who give visions, I ask them to cure, I have dominion over them because I diet. If I don’t, they make you crazy or annoy you.

So if the shaman cannot control himself, then the spirits get out of hand?
If you can’t dominate the spirits of the jungle you are nobody, instead of curing they run away or take no notice of you.

So the control of the spirits is fundamental?
Spirits are like angels. God withstood 40 days of hunger and temptation by the devil and was resurrected. That’s what we have to do too.

This is Christianity, but your (Javier’s) people were practicing long before the missionaries came. Is it possible to separate the Christian from the wisdom of the jungle?

No, no, they work together. But it has nothing to do with going to a church. You learn all this in the wilderness. The spirits there are the angels of each plant to which you add your will to heal the client. This is the will of Christ.

Where does the power of the shaman end and the spirits begin?

The shaman receives the power from the jungle, he doesn’t have any power of his own that he doesn’t get from the forest.

When I look at you by day I see just a normal young man, when you wear your clothes and move into the ayahuasca space you become different, a different presence, you become larger…

(Javier laughs!) The medicine is not in the body, the body can wear clothes for example, and you see that by day. But at night you don’t see my body, you see my spirit which receives the medicine which transforms me through the vision. I have to be pure so as to be a receptacle of the spirit of the medicine. It is essential too for a shaman to be happy, the shaman laughs at everything, because a happy heart is what cures. He can’t have a long face or fight with his wife and children.

You started off with a desire for revenge, what changed you into a shaman?
My grandfather saw that my heart was bitter and he told me that it would not get me anywhere. My heart was still hard and wanted to kill! Bit by bit through taking the very plants that I had intended to use for revenge, the spirits told me it was wrong to kill and my heart softened.

About Howard G Charing

Since the late 90's I have organised journeys with Peter Cloudsley to the Amazon Rainforest and the Andes to work with the shamans and the sacred 'jungle doctors' (healing and visionary plants) of this area. I have written numerous articles about the Amazonian plant medicines, and have worked with some of the most respected shamans in the region. I was baptised into their tribe by the Shipibo Indians in the Amazon, and was initiated into the lineage of the maestros of the Rio Napo in the Upper Amazon.
Co-authored the book Plant Spirit Shamanism, published by Destiny Books (USA) with a foreword by the great visionary artist Pablo Amaringo.
Co-authored the book 'The Ayahuasca Visions of Pablo Amaringo', published by Inner Traditions (USA) April, 2011, presents a collection of never-before-published paintings by Amaringo. The book illustrated the evolution of Amaringo’s intricate art with 48 full-color reproductions, including detailed explorations of the rich Amazonian mythology underlying each painting.
Now available - Fine art giclee prints and reproductions of Pablo Amaringo's beautiful work featured in the new book 'The Ayahuasca Visions of Pablo Amaringo'.
http//ayahuasca_visions.imagekind.com

One comment

I love the comments about our heart in the third part of the interview with Javier.
I work as a shamanic practitioner for animals and had a lovely line that came to me a while ago that stated ‘it is what lies in our heart that matters most’.
I seem to receive lessons in a theme that will run for a while, and this morning began a new lesson as I woke. It was all about our heart and pictures flowed with the lesson from Spirit that was full of information that brought together so many other things I had learnt. Later that afternoon, on checking my e.mails, I read this interview with Javier and part of it stated;
‘It is essential too for a shaman to be happy, the shaman laughs at everything, because a happy heart is what cures. He can’t have a long face with his wife and children’.
It continued with Howard asking;
You started off with a desire for revenge, what changes you into a shaman?,
‘My grandfather saw my heart was bitter and told me that it would not get me anywhere. My heart was still hard and wanted to kill! Bit by bit through taking the very plants that I intended to use for revenge, the spirits told me it was wrong to kill and my heart softened’.
A fabulous lesson for everyone, not just shamans today.