A. Holland, Pte. 30402 (forum archive)

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I am trying to find out some more information about my great grandfather Arthur Holland who came from London. The little information I have came from my grandmother and from my own research but am not sure where to look next. I have a piece of paper with a stamp mark on it. The top of the stamp says 'cumberland & westmorland territorial force association' the date 'jan 21 1917' is in the middle and at the bottom of the stamp is 'drill hall penrith'. I think he was killed on 1st Oct 1917 and is buried in Artillery Wood Cemetery. My great grandmother was told he was buried where he fell along with others but she later had a letter telling her that his body was going to be moved to Artillery Wood. I am not sure when but she did visit his grave. I am trying to find out what happened to 1st Bn. on 1st Oct 1917. Thanks, Sue.

Sue, at the time of his death the 1st Battalion Border Regiment were attatched to; 29th Division, 87th Brigade. I cannot find out exactly where they were on the 1st October 1917, however they were involved in the Third Battle of Ypres which is commonly known as the Battle of Paschendale!Have you obtained a copy of his Medal Index Card? Good luck with your research, please let us know how you get on?

Sue, a little bit more, it appears that his division (29th) relieved the 20th Division on Friday 28th September 1917, sadly I cannot pin point were this happened but I am assuming that it means they went into the front line on this day and took over from the 20th?

Thank you so much for this information it really means so much to me (actually brings a lump to my throat) . I feel I owe him so much. I have a copy of his war medals but not sure how they were given out, when a soldier was killed did next of kin have them sent to them? Can you explain what the roll means next to medal on page and presumably the page number is from book with all medals given. Is it possible to see this? I also have copy of CWGC certificate and his number was 30402. I will research all the info you have given me. I am also trying to find out if a soldier died did their wives get a pension or did they and their children have to manage on their own? Thank you so much for your time.

Sue, sorry for the delay in replying, my understanding is that the medals were sent out to next of kin, also they sent out a brass plaque about the size of a saucer that had the casualties name on it, these are known by lots of nicknames including death plate, dead mans pennies etc also there would have been two certificates including a facsimile of the Kings signiture sent to the next of kin. If requested the Commonwealth War Graves Commission sent out a photograph of the grave and temporary wooden cross.As you suspected the roll number is simply a reference in a book to prove his entitlement to a medal, it is possible to get a copy of this, again this can be done through the PRO at Kew.With regard to the pension in the case of a man being killed I think they receieved a small pension.

Thank you so much for the info, every little bit helps me to try and understand what life must have been like for my great grandmother who was left with two small children after Arthur was killed. I believe he like many never saw his son. My aim is to visit his grave but I want to find out as much as I can before I do. Are you able to tell me how men were enlisted. Did they have a choice or was it out of duty. He came from Fulham, where do you think he may have first gone to. As I have mentioned before I have a scrap of paper from his possessions which has Penrith Drill Hall on it. Was this one of the central places where soldiers were sent before going to the front?

Sue, at the start of the war the UK had a small army, the soldiers were either regular serving soldiers or members of the Territorial's who were called up and mobilised. As these men quickly became casualties an appeal was made in 1914 by Lord Kitchener for volunteers for the 'New Army' which produced a huge response from the public. As the war progressed the need for men outstriped the volunteers and conscription was introduced. To start with the men could volunteer to serve in a Regiment of their choice, however when they were conscripted my understanding was they were just sent to were there were vacancies!If you have a copy of his Medal index Card does it say what date that 'when he entered theatre of war'? This date 'may' help you find out if he was a volunteer or conscripted? Could I recommend that you pay a visit to The Great War Forum, a section of their website 'The Long Trail' has some interesting info that may be of use to you and a post on their Forum may produce some results.That said please don't ignore this Forum let us know how you get on.

Scottie,Thank you for you quick reply. I will certainly look at the forum you have mentioned. I do have a copy of his Medal Record but unfortunately it has very little on it. No dates I am afraid, but I am hoping to find some more info through family research. I will certainly post anything I manage to find. I have a truly wonderful photo of him with his wife my greatgrandmother. She lived for 65 years after he died, never remarried and struggled with little help to raise her two children. I feel I owe them both so much as I have had a very good life.Regards, Sue