Rebuild Warlocks

*Edited to show the original post instead of link

==Talents==

15 Tier - Keep Dark regeneration, keep harvest life, But make soul leech (5.1 version) Baseline for demonology warlocks. In previous expansions, demonology was able to heal their pet for the damage they cause and that has been removed.
To take it's place, use the 5.2 soul leech.

45 Tier - Soul link is 100% stupid. Make it like it used to be before and keep that baseline.
Sacrificial pact is good and so is dark bargain. To take Soul link's place put in the old Demon Armor.

60 Tier - I know you guys wanted this to be a health costly tier, but it's stupid.
Put Burning rush on a 15 second duration and a 30 second cooldown. Increase the cooldown of unbound will to 2 minutes (Still stacks with the racial though). Remove blood fear completely.
In Blood fear's place ; Gul'dan's Shield - Create a shield that lasts 10 seconds absorbing all damage, after the 10 seconds expire, the shield explodes dealing all damage taken to enemies within 10 yards. (It's defensive like you guys wanted and it's not over powered.)

75 Tier - This tier is good, and I see warlocks experiment with all 3. (This is how talents should be)

90 Tier - Since it's been moved earlier in the description we can put useful stuff here.
For one move, we can get a new dot that damages the target and heals for 50% of the damage dealt.
Another dot that stuns the target 5 seconds after its put on.
And another dot that turns the target into a explosive seed, dealing x amount of damage to all enemies and it's self every tick.

===Demonology===
Demonic fury is a good idea but having to manage mana is an issue.
So, give us the same type of spell destruction has for mana.

*Why'd you guys remove the Demon Leap fly up in the air, with no cooldown? Now when we use it, it has a cd..*

Also make it so demonology doesnt lose fury at the 200 mark, it only goes away if we use our moves. (In demonology fury goes down while in form)

===Affliction===
Give us back shadowbolt, so we can choose if we want to use shadowbolt as a filler or malefic grasp, Or give malefic grasp baseline healing or replace it with drain life. Other than that affliction is in a good place pve wise and the only reason it sucks in pvp is because of the over powered healing and little defenses.

Remove rain of fire.. It's a waste of a move honestly.

===Destruction===
A good spec that went downwards.

New idea for chaos bolt - Make it so, you channel it, the longer you channel the more damage it generates until max damage. When stunned, it automatically shoots what you channeled. We have unending resolve so it won't work with silencing. Give us a move that helps bring up the damage in our imp. I loved using the imp.
====New moves in general===
Turn Life tap into some sort of resource tap for destruction and demonology.
Generates 5-bits of embers for health.
Generates 200 demonic fury for health.

Shadow Flame should once again be baseline for all warlocks.

===Glyphs===
Demon Hunting - Add back the reduced crit chance so we can attempt to single solo old content.
Glyph of Unstable Affliction - This move needs to deal 300% times the normal damage so healers know, not to dispel it.
Glyph of crimson banish - This talent is ridiculous, make it so the banished target has chains surrounding him.

Glyph of Enslave Demon - Make it so the enslaved demon can teleport with you to cities and towns.

As 1000000000 other ppl you are just giving your wishlist and you dont give a fuck about what other ppl wants/like how it will work in pvp, pve, lvling etc. and thats why it will be ignored by blizzard - like previous 1000000000 topics like this.

As Kandalanu has stated, you're just putting up a wishlist. There's not any constructive reasoning or criticism about the current design. It seems like half of your reasons for wanting current abilities or talents retired is "this is stupid". That's not going to earn you any attention from Blizzard. If you want to advocate change, be prepared to support your suggestions with reasoning. Otherwise, the request is just a list of things you want. Blizzard isn't in the business of making changes based on wishlists. You'd have had better luck asking Santa for your warlock changes.

Yea, this is pretty much just a wish list. Honestly I can see tons of imbalances in there; especially some that would cause one spec to overcome another due to it just being easier to manage and still doing the same, if not more, dps.

Yea, this is pretty much just a wish list. Honestly I can see tons of imbalances in there; especially some that would cause one spec to overcome another due to it just being easier to manage and still doing the same, if not more, dps.

All you guys are doing is talking bout how this is my wishlist rather than stating your opinions on how it would work. You said some would choose one spec because it's easier to manage. How so? Affliction is easier to manage than demonology but people still play demonology.

First tier overall is fine except harvest life should also heal pets
Second tier the old talents don't need to be baseline aymore because of other defensive cooldowns. They add good versatility to the tree and I have seen proper use for all 3 spells in raid encounters over the years.
3e tier Soul Link talent will probably be adjusted since I suspect not many players are taking the talent. Sac pact needs another small adjustment to compete with dark bargain (or DB needs a nerf)
4e tier your defensive cooldown suggestion is to much and the whole tier is actually good for both pvp and pve (blood fear is a exception). And warlocks should have more spells with a healtcost because it fits the class.
final tier: WHy would you want to be balanced around a extra damage spell? Compared to many other classes warlocks have enough spells so adding another spell does nothing. And KJ's cunning is bloody great and if needed I would trade all of my defensive cool downs to have it on my other casters.

In Blood fear's place ; Gul'dan's Shield - Create a shield that lasts 10 seconds absorbing all damage, after the 10 seconds expire, the shield explodes dealing all damage taken to enemies within 10 yards. (It's defensive like you guys wanted and it's not over powered.)

Your so called mentioned shield is the same thing as Dark Bargain... Lasts 2 seconds longer, and deals AoE Dmg that was absorbed. Please explain to me how this is not OP. Explain to me how getting both of the these talents (Yes you have them on different tiers) makes any sense. 18 seconds of absorption. You could start out with DB then when it's dealing the damage back you would just pop this shield. That doesn't too OP (sarcasm).

I don't see how your complete revamp is better than what we have now. Stuff here and there still need to be tweaked but not another overhaul.

Give us back shadowbolt, so we can choose if we want to use shadowbolt as a filler or malefic grasp

Make it so, you channel it, the longer you channel the more damage it generates until max damage

You want to get rid of a channel in one spec and then add it to another? Why?

Remove rain of fire.. It's a waste of a move honestly.

You can still use it to break stealths, even though channeling isn't as good as Destro's non-channel. However I find it to still be useful on Lei Shi to break hiding since you aren't doing anything.

Turn Life tap into some sort of resource tap for destruction and demonology.
Generates 5-bits of embers for health.
Generates 200 demonic fury for health

.

I completely disagree, because then you will have affliction locks wanting their Life Tap to generate Shards.

Demon Hunting - Add back the reduced crit chance so we can attempt to single solo old content.

You can solo old content, and using a supremacy'ed VW is just lawls. Plus you would have Warlocks try to tank current stuff and argue it being a viable tank spec. I don't want to go through that again.

Glyph of crimson banish - This talent is ridiculous, make it so the banished target has chains surrounding him.

So changing the color is ridiculous? Copying the Shaman's Bind Elemental isn't? I don't see how either is more ridiculous and its just a flavor glyph.

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Originally Posted by MegaNew

All you guys are doing is talking bout how this is my wishlist rather than stating your opinions on how it would work. You said some would choose one spec because it's easier to manage. How so? Affliction is easier to manage than demonology but people still play demonology.

Sadly, before everyone else stated it, I saw this and thought it was your own opinions on Locks that don't meet current Warlock concensious (in before Warlocks are Geth, Warlocks do not have windows, structural weakness)

Can't talk about T15 other than my own feeling that Blizz wants 5.1 Soul Leech gone completely. Not opposed to Demo spells healing the pet (and only the pet) aside from how it would go with Soul Link.

T30.... This removes the one major element of MoP talents: Choice. Howl of Terror was only baseline with a cast, remember. I don't see a reason in removing these talents other than to make way for your T90 talents (which I'll get to in a bit). The argument that "Well it was baseline once" doesn't cut it when Shaman T60, Mage T15 and DK T75 have all (arguably) existed as spec-specifics before, now Talents.

T45... This tier is meant to have downsides on it's mitigation. Removing the downside from Soul Link is either OP or redundant, I haven't decided yet. Soul Link is meant to be an effective health increase of 50% of your Demon's health, instead of a CD 200% pet hp shield, or a 50% damage reduction, DOT shield. I honestly don't think you understand the reasoning behind having downsides to it. Besides, to look at the talents at a non-90 viewpoint (shock, horror) it's quite helpful to allow one to level without needing a Voidwalker.

T60.. This is meant to be indirect damage mitigation. Think, cutting off a toe to save the foot. Adding a shield to this tier (instead of, you know, the direct damage mitigation tier) is like having a DPS increase in the middle of a utility tier. It's out of place. Not to mention adding damage to it is even worse, it'll make Warlocks want to get back into melee range in PvE, just like Shadowflame in Cata. You say it's defensive and not OP, but In My Opinion, it is both.

(On Blood Fear: Yes, the redesign is stupid. Yes, the old design was/is stupid. It might not be too bad if they decrease the health cost, increase the charges, but I doubt it)

T75 - Agreed that the tier is good in theory. However, I will say that I see far more choice and "experimentation" in the other tiers (especially the damage mitigation, the utility and the healing trees) than "Affli takes Sac, Demo Serv and Destro Sup".

T90 - Ok. Take a look at every other DPSer talent T90. DK - Slow/snare. Druid- Out of Spec benefits. Hunter - Rotational/AoE spell. Mage - Rotational DPS increase. Monk - Rotational DPS increase. Priest - Rotational/AoE DPS increase. Paladin - Rotational DPS increase. Rogue - Passive DPS increase. Shaman - Passive/Rotational DPS increase. Warrior - Rotational DPS increase. Now, all those classes with DPS increases are balanced around having, eg, the Evocation buff, Elemental Blast buff, Avatar use on cooldown, etc etc. Now, Warlocks aren't balanced around the basis of having a DPS talent, but rather that in the right conditions, a certain Talent may increase damage in specific situations above what Warlocks are "balanced" for. Having a 90 tier based around damage will just mean our other abilities will be nerfed to adjust for damage. The irony is that you say you want to put the "useful" stuff here, but current T90 is far more useful than your suggestions.

Now for the non-damage aspect.. Since you didn't flesh out the spells (ie, name and proper tooltip) I'll assume you're just taking a thought exercise in all this. (On another note, the spells are essentially new forms of Devouring Plague, Cata Hand of Gul'Dan (with the side-linked talent Aura of Doom, IIRC) and Seed of Corruption respectively). They're not bad, the DoT for 50% healing is waaay too much healing, not even DP does that much and that has a big ramp-up. Nothing too bad, but it pushes out a tier for subpar copies of existing spells that haven't been fully thought out.

Now I'll agree that Demonology needs a better mana system, I'd suggest Mana Feed, at least the "gain mana when your Demon, Wild Imps or Metamorphosis attacks hit a target". DF is meant to decrease while in form, it means you don't have to wait in-form, not casting, until your demon/imps attack enough for you to get Fury. Only reason I can think of for allowing no passive DF degeneration at 200 Fury is demon form RP, and if I find anyone RPing as a demon I tie them to a chair, put a gag in their mouth and force them to listen to Harry Potter: My Immortal for the rest. Of. Their. Lives.

Affliction: Shadowbolt is redundant. It doesn't synergize with the spec, and would be a pure DPS decrease. Drain life would never be a main nuke, it'd be OP, hence the channeled Malefic Grasp.

Destruction: Chaos Bolt being channelled... Now THIS is a thought exercise. Ultimatly I'll say, no thanks. For one, it'll reduce the point of interrupts when fighting Warlocks, bringing back, you guessed it, the villain who stretches in the middle of the night wishing to invade and corrupt the dreams of nice little spellcasters, BLANKET SILENCE. I'd rather an interruptable CB that requires smarts to get off than being silenced pre-emptively.

Life Tap as resource builder: NO. It's a Utility spell, for mana. Not a rotational spell. That's why they removed the glyph back in Wrath that gave Spellpower when you LT'd.

Shadowflame: Ok, now I know you're trolling. I prefer being able to see more than the boss's shins.

Can't comment on UA, I don't PvP at high levels, though the damage IMO should be enough to make the healer have to focus on healing themselves and the target and lose attention to all else.

Cosmetics I don't care to talk about here. Crimson is a small change, but that's what many of these are (level in Outlands and you'll see why someone may want it).

Final words. For the love of Gul'Dan. Please. Please. Please. Never make me write this much again. You aren't concerned with balance, obviously, and/or you are ignorant of the reasoning behind Warlock mechanics. That's not a crime in and of itself, but you asked for opinions and you got it. I don't see anyone in this thread who says they want these.

Sadly, before everyone else stated it, I saw this and thought it was your own opinions on Locks that don't meet current Warlock concensious (in before Warlocks are Geth, Warlocks do not have windows, structural weakness)

Can't talk about T15 other than my own feeling that Blizz wants 5.1 Soul Leech gone completely. Not opposed to Demo spells healing the pet (and only the pet) aside from how it would go with Soul Link.

T30.... This removes the one major element of MoP talents: Choice. Howl of Terror was only baseline with a cast, remember. I don't see a reason in removing these talents other than to make way for your T90 talents (which I'll get to in a bit). The argument that "Well it was baseline once" doesn't cut it when Shaman T60, Mage T15 and DK T75 have all (arguably) existed as spec-specifics before, now Talents.

T45... This tier is meant to have downsides on it's mitigation. Removing the downside from Soul Link is either OP or redundant, I haven't decided yet. Soul Link is meant to be an effective health increase of 50% of your Demon's health, instead of a CD 200% pet hp shield, or a 50% damage reduction, DOT shield. I honestly don't think you understand the reasoning behind having downsides to it. Besides, to look at the talents at a non-90 viewpoint (shock, horror) it's quite helpful to allow one to level without needing a Voidwalker.

T60.. This is meant to be indirect damage mitigation. Think, cutting off a toe to save the foot. Adding a shield to this tier (instead of, you know, the direct damage mitigation tier) is like having a DPS increase in the middle of a utility tier. It's out of place. Not to mention adding damage to it is even worse, it'll make Warlocks want to get back into melee range in PvE, just like Shadowflame in Cata. You say it's defensive and not OP, but In My Opinion, it is both.

(On Blood Fear: Yes, the redesign is stupid. Yes, the old design was/is stupid. It might not be too bad if they decrease the health cost, increase the charges, but I doubt it)

T75 - Agreed that the tier is good in theory. However, I will say that I see far more choice and "experimentation" in the other tiers (especially the damage mitigation, the utility and the healing trees) than "Affli takes Sac, Demo Serv and Destro Sup".

T90 - Ok. Take a look at every other DPSer talent T90. DK - Slow/snare. Druid- Out of Spec benefits. Hunter - Rotational/AoE spell. Mage - Rotational DPS increase. Monk - Rotational DPS increase. Priest - Rotational/AoE DPS increase. Paladin - Rotational DPS increase. Rogue - Passive DPS increase. Shaman - Passive/Rotational DPS increase. Warrior - Rotational DPS increase. Now, all those classes with DPS increases are balanced around having, eg, the Evocation buff, Elemental Blast buff, Avatar use on cooldown, etc etc. Now, Warlocks aren't balanced around the basis of having a DPS talent, but rather that in the right conditions, a certain Talent may increase damage in specific situations above what Warlocks are "balanced" for. Having a 90 tier based around damage will just mean our other abilities will be nerfed to adjust for damage. The irony is that you say you want to put the "useful" stuff here, but current T90 is far more useful than your suggestions.

Now for the non-damage aspect.. Since you didn't flesh out the spells (ie, name and proper tooltip) I'll assume you're just taking a thought exercise in all this. (On another note, the spells are essentially new forms of Devouring Plague, Cata Hand of Gul'Dan (with the side-linked talent Aura of Doom, IIRC) and Seed of Corruption respectively). They're not bad, the DoT for 50% healing is waaay too much healing, not even DP does that much and that has a big ramp-up. Nothing too bad, but it pushes out a tier for subpar copies of existing spells that haven't been fully thought out.

Now I'll agree that Demonology needs a better mana system, I'd suggest Mana Feed, at least the "gain mana when your Demon, Wild Imps or Metamorphosis attacks hit a target". DF is meant to decrease while in form, it means you don't have to wait in-form, not casting, until your demon/imps attack enough for you to get Fury. Only reason I can think of for allowing no passive DF degeneration at 200 Fury is demon form RP, and if I find anyone RPing as a demon I tie them to a chair, put a gag in their mouth and force them to listen to Harry Potter: My Immortal for the rest. Of. Their. Lives.

Affliction: Shadowbolt is redundant. It doesn't synergize with the spec, and would be a pure DPS decrease. Drain life would never be a main nuke, it'd be OP, hence the channeled Malefic Grasp.

Destruction: Chaos Bolt being channelled... Now THIS is a thought exercise. Ultimatly I'll say, no thanks. For one, it'll reduce the point of interrupts when fighting Warlocks, bringing back, you guessed it, the villain who stretches in the middle of the night wishing to invade and corrupt the dreams of nice little spellcasters, BLANKET SILENCE. I'd rather an interruptable CB that requires smarts to get off than being silenced pre-emptively.

Life Tap as resource builder: NO. It's a Utility spell, for mana. Not a rotational spell. That's why they removed the glyph back in Wrath that gave Spellpower when you LT'd.

Shadowflame: Ok, now I know you're trolling. I prefer being able to see more than the boss's shins.

Can't comment on UA, I don't PvP at high levels, though the damage IMO should be enough to make the healer have to focus on healing themselves and the target and lose attention to all else.

Cosmetics I don't care to talk about here. Crimson is a small change, but that's what many of these are (level in Outlands and you'll see why someone may want it).

Final words. For the love of Gul'Dan. Please. Please. Please. Never make me write this much again. You aren't concerned with balance, obviously, and/or you are ignorant of the reasoning behind Warlock mechanics. That's not a crime in and of itself, but you asked for opinions and you got it. I don't see anyone in this thread who says they want these.

I like this type of post as it showed why he disliked it, but the bashing was a bit uncalled for.

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Originally Posted by MegaNew

I like this type of post as it showed why he disliked it, but the bashing was a bit uncalled for.

I assure you, bashing is unintended, and I assure you I wouldn't have been able to conciously bash if I wanted to*. If any feelings were hurt, I apologise. The only thing I was thinking of was that the changes were too out-of-design for Warlocks, take the T90 for example, it'd mean Warlocks would have another factor to be balanced around. If you have any counter-arguments I'll be willing to talk It just seems like you're trying to fix certain things that don't quite need fixing, or trying to fix a square hole with a round plug.

I like this type of post as it showed why he disliked it, but the bashing was a bit uncalled for.

The post you quoted as having a desirable response shows the kind of work you should have invested into your original post. You lacked reasoning in your original post and should not have expected the community to come along to provide reasoning for why your proposed changes shouldn't be considered. If you aren't going to put the work into explaining why you want changes, you're not likely to get a favorable response from the community or Blizzard.

Myself, I was reading at work and couldn't devote my time to picking apart a random post at length. I can appreciate the amount of thought that went into starting the thread, but such a post requires more effort than you started with.

I don't think I'll ever understand why watching a bar move from left to right is more desirable than watching a bar go from right to left. I suppose I'll never understand why people want the return of shadowbolt in Aff's rotation.

Before I start I just want to say most of those things seem like the would be varying in ranges of OPness and make me glad that the community at large doesn't get much say in balancing.

t15- you want to make the 4-5k hps of soul leech baseline while giving us an absorb on top of that or a survival cd. No trade offs, just a straight buff that would be very noticeable.

t30- you want to move a ton of cc baseline. AoE cc at that and while I don't pvp I understand that instant aoe cc is a pretty big problem this season and you want to give warlocks two of them. Seems like an incredibly strong buff to the point of being ludicrously op.

t45- IIRC the old soul link was a 15% damage redirect and you want to make that baseline? That seems again like an incredibly strong survival buff to the entire class without any type of compensation. Also not sure how that would work with GoSac.

t60- I love this tier and how it works. You get incredibly strong abilities but at the cost of health, which just feels like a warlock to me. Your proposed ability seems incredibly overpowered, like it would be the most overpowered ability in the game. When you thought of it and looked at comparable abilities(dark bargain/deterrence/pally bubble) did you not see it to be overpowered? I know comparisons aren't always a good idea when creating/balancing skills but just looking at them shows you how op that would truly be.

t75- I don't see specs experimenting all that much with this tier actually. It needs altering, GoSac might need a total rework for this tier to truly open up.

t90- I don't know what you mean when you say 'put useful stuff here'. This tier is incredibly useful, well KC is at least. The others have their niches but they are pretty small and they should be buffed. As for your suggested dps tier, the healing dot seems like it would be hard to balance. You are juggling between a dps and survival ability within a single talent and that is a lot tougher than you think. The stun is more cc, I think you have given destro 4 more cc's with them all on different DR. I actually somewhat like the idea of an aoe dot for affliction, makes more sense to me than SoC for aoe in the spec, just not as a talent but rather baseline to replace SoC. This is all aside from the balancing issues of giving us more cc and damage that Queen Ultima pointed out.

I think demo and aff have mana issues. I am dreading moving up to other haste plateaus as aff, the amount of lifetapping is going to be crazy. A mana feed style ability for all 3 specs might be necessary.

No demonic fury loss below 200 I guess would be alright. Not sure how that changes anything in fight besides allowing you to stay in form a little longer in a burn phase as you aren't losing fury.

Do not give affliction back shadow bolt. Removing that spell from the spec was a brilliant move. MG is amazing and it ties the entire spec to its dots, which is how it should be. Not to mention you would have to buff shadow bolt to even compare it to MG. If you want a cast instead of a channel maybe make a lesser glyph that does that to mg, base cast time that is 1/2 MG channel and when it hits it does 2 ticks worth of MG damage. No damage change, just a preference towards casting a spell instead of a channel.

I have not played destro at all since 5.01 so wont comment.

Why doesn't aff get a life tap for shards? Don't you think that life tapping for resources is a little overpowered? The rate at which we earn them was designed that way intentionally. If anything I would say make an empowered life tap that returns more mana to the warlock at the cost of spec specific resources, possibly a health return as well, to limit the amount of gcds lost to life tap down the line.

No shadowflame please. I like not being tied to melee range to maximize my damage. We are a ranged class, we should be in the ranged group.

Most of your glyphs are cosmetic changes and I say the more cosmetic options available the better.

Overall a lot of your changes are pretty OP and you don't seem to give much consideration to balance amongst all the classes. All the cc's and survival abilities can't just be tacked on without thought to pvp or pve. Not to mention damage increasing abilities need to be paired with damage reductions elsewhere because right now warlocks are in a pretty good place in sustained damage. Personal preference shouldn't be the sole reasoning behind class changes, either.

I don't think I'll ever understand why watching a bar move from left to right is more desirable than watching a bar go from right to left. I suppose I'll never understand why people want the return of shadowbolt in Aff's rotation.

Because ~45% of aff's damage output is tied up in MG, making multi-target pressure in PvP terrible.

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Originally Posted by Medieve

I don't think I'll ever understand why watching a bar move from left to right is more desirable than watching a bar go from right to left. I suppose I'll never understand why people want the return of shadowbolt in Aff's rotation.

I know why I prefer it going from right to left: Damage cut off. Without KjC, run while shadowbolting, you essentially wasted however many seconds it took. Now, run while in the middle of Malefic Grasp, and you'll at least have had some damage done. And that's not getting into spell mechanics.

This post is full of good intentions, it's well constructed but I gotta be honest.. lots of bad ideas.

Shadowflame being baseline was removed for good reason, we aren't melee casters.. I mean having it just as a slow with no damage would be ok I guess? My thought was that carrion swarm was pretty much shadowflame but as a knockback and something to help give demo an identity.

Shadowbolt should never be used again as afflic, again it gives both demo and afflic separate flavors and after drain life was arguably better than shadowbolt at one point in cata people started realizing a channeled spell as affliction made sense.

I do like some of your cosmetic suggestions, it does seem like demo got a ton of glyphs to make things look better and I think some of the ideas you had sound cool. Although i'd leave verdant spheres, honestly it's very cool as it is.

Offtopic even if a lot of these ideas are wrong or bad I don't know why you're all flaming him, it does seem like a lot of effort was put into this and it's tough to make a post like this and put yourself out there sometimes.

My only thought to contribute to your post atm is consider some numbers or quality of life things next time, things like soul fire costing a retarded amount of mana or even how clunky stance dancing in and out of meta for doom can be... maybe even how the dot portion of chaos bolt should be removed and sac should have cast time reduction effect on chaos bolt.