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As some of you have noticed, the majority of normal posters from SI haven't been on the forums much recently.

I can't talk for anyone else at SI (unless I'm doing PR ), and whilst it's true that we've all been really busy with FM08, FMH08 and FML and that is part of the reason, from my own point of view, it's because the forums seem to have been changing a lot over the last 18 months, and it's got to the point where I don't think they're very nice anymore.

The purpose of these forums is for people to be able to talk about the game, a bit of speculation about what the future holds, coming up with ideas, and discussing them with likeminded people - people who play Football Manager.

What they aren't a place for is to sling around personal insults, not listening to other people or destructive criticism. Constructive criticism is fine, and always welcome, whether it be directly about the game and aimed at us, or whether it's debating someone elses idea.

We're currently thinking about changing the rules and terms and conditions of the forums so that this bullying behaviour is stopped, and the forums become a vibrant place again. So this thread is for suggestions of how to do that - I'm not planning on revealing what I'm thinking of at the moment, just want to get ideas from the regular users of the forums.

Stupid comments and insults (which I've seen on a lot of threads today whilst looking at a few things) will be dealt with accordingly in anyway I see fit. So please behave, and type nicely.

I think a larger moderating team could do a bit of help. That way, there'd be a greater chance of a mod stopping by when another one isn't around, thus allowing quicker diffusion of all those roasts that start when mods aren't around(you know, those threads that start really stupid and pointless, and then go to about 10 pages of nothing but insults before any mod comes back to break it up).

*For example: TBL has quite a large mod team, and the forums are very well kept and disciplined.

Unfortunately at the moment it seems to be that every discussion turns into an argument (wouldn't be surprised if this did aswell)
which stops the forumum from beng as enjoyable as it possibly could be. I have also noticed that it is putting of a lot of newcomers aswell.

Unfortunately I can't think of a perfect solution to the problem.

I think more mods would be a start as at the monetn there can be long periods of time when there are no mods about.

Maybe the introduction of the abilty to complain about general rude behaviour by a member over a period of time rather than just a single post aswell. This can then be noted and if others also complain the mods can review his post history to see if they are of the same opinion. I just don't think that being able to complain about a single post can always point out a person's behaviour.

thank god you're taking this seriously miles. i think we do need more mods. and to be frank, ban everyone, who starts to "misbehave" immediately and for a long ban. pointless posts should be removed or closed quicker and spammers should be excluded

As I see it, the last two editions of FM (and especially FM07) have split the forums in two. There are those that love the game and offer advice on how to play and there are those who can't get to grips with its ever increasing complexity and blame the game for these problems. The two sides are unable to agree which caused some hot disputes. Now, I'm all for discussion but both sides are wont to become arrogant if they aren't listened to.

The common two arguments are:

1) The game sucks + evidence + you must be cheating if this doesn't happen to you

2) The game is fine + advice + you aren't really very good at it once the argument gets heated

Once these binary positions have crystallized there is little constructive commentary between them. It is a dilemma for the forums because human nature is such that very few of us will be able to see both perspectives and appreciate comment from these competing positions. How to stop this?

I'm not really sure. As FM continues to develop it will more accurately reflect the ambiguity, randomness and sheer frustration of management. In doing so it will appeal to one section of player and not to the other. I see the two camps growing further apart. As they do antagonism is likely to grow.

I moderate for FM-Britain and we don't have these problems anywhere near so badly. It is an easier job because there are less members. However, we are much tougher on anyone who turns what was a criticism of the game into a criticism of the person. 1-2 week bans are commonplace for that kind of behaviour. If there were a no tolerance policy for personal criticism with an automatic two week ban for name-calling then we should rapidly make the forums more friendly.

Just rambling really, but that is how (in my just woken up in Sydney mode) I understand the reasons for the nastiness with a possible solution for good measure.

Originally posted by wwfan:
As I see it, the last two editions of FM (and especially FM07) have split the forums in two. There are those that love the game and offer advice on how to play and there are those who can't get to grips with its ever increasing complexity and blame the game for these problems. The two sides are unable to agree which caused some hot disputes. Now, I'm all for discussion but both sides are wont to become arrogant if they aren't listened to.

The common two arguments are:

1) The game sucks + evidence + you must be cheating if this doesn't happen to you

2) The game is fine + advice + you aren't really very good at it once the argument gets heated

Once these binary positions have crystallized there is little constructive commentary between them. It is a dilemma for the forums because human nature is such that very few of us will be able to see both perspectives and appreciate comment from these competing positions. How to stop this?

I'm not really sure. As FM continues to develop it will more accurately reflect the ambiguity, randomness and sheer frustration of management. In doing so it will appeal to one section of player and not to the other. I see the two camps growing further apart. As they do antagonism is likely to grow.

I moderate for FM-Britain and we don't have these problems anywhere near so badly. It is an easier job because there are less members. However, we are much tougher on anyone who turns what was a criticism of the game into a criticism of the person. 1-2 week bans are commonplace for that kind of behaviour. If there were a no tolerance policy for personal criticism with an automatic two week ban for name-calling then we should rapidly make the forums more friendly.

Just rambling really, but that is how (in my just woken up in Sydney mode) I understand the reasons for the nastiness with a possible solution for good measure.

Totally agree with wwfan here. This seems to be what is going on and the fact that the new game is just around the corner and new members are asking things like when the demo will be out and being shot down. I have even seen members being picked on by more than ten so called members who have been here long enough to know this. I am webmaster at fmglive and as with fm-britian we do not tolerate this at all. Automatic bans is what we hand out but for bullying we hand out much tougher bans. Maybe there could be a small section for new members, Say they get out of there after so many posts or say after a sort of time spent to get to grips with the rules etc. (Maybe this is a bad idea though) Need to think more on this one.

LFC Lloydy & wwfan - I don't have a problem with heated discussions, as long as both sides respects the others opinion, and, if they don't, they should just not comment.

Making a point is fine. Making a point in a condescending way is not. Making a sniping post is also not.

We know that some people are finding the game too complex. It was one of the reasons behind our decision to make Football Manager Handheld. We'll also be trying to provide better guides for people on playing the game this year on this site, and with some of the features on footballmanager.net

By having these forums, and coming to them ourselves, we're also an easy target for people hiding behind their computer screens to have a go. It's something that isn't seen as much on the unofficial forums because it's not as obvious that we're looking at those. One of the options we have is to have them controlled by outside forces, so not come into them at all, which is what a lot of games developers do nowadays (and most bands/authors/films/other entertainment industries) but we really don't want to go down that route, as we think direct contact with our community and the people who play our game, and come up with such great ideas for future versions, is really important.

wwfan, i agree with you but i think it does go deeper in that, i feel that there certain members of this forum that are on constant power trips, and instead of offering advice the first thing they say is read the rules

i think there needs to ways of rewarding good posting from members, maybe a post increase by a moderator if he/she feels that the a poster has made a good post to help a newbie

you guys could probably come up with a better reward system but that was the first thing that came to mind

I agree about the more mods suggestion, the fast the silly threads that get opened can be shut the less time the people who want to make pointless / insulting posts have to make them

I think the main problem on the forums at times is sadly one that I find on many forums, people just waiting for a chance to jump on somebody elses back whenever they make a slight error or give a sarcastic answer when somebody asks a question or maybe post in the wrong forum, maybe some sort of section where basic questions like how to take a screenshot etc are ansewrd and would maybe cut down on this threads which lead to stuipd answers, also if it was created if somebody did make a thread about one of the answerd question a quick linking to the answer would do the job

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Ackter - the problem with it when we used to have it seperate is that few people saw the suggestions. Certainly something we can look into though.

To be honest that's no different from now.
Any good idea is immediately shunted off the first page and burried under all the usual threads - especially at this time of year with the release thread deluge.

miles i think he was maybe referring to a QA thread at the top of the topic list.

And ackter, i do agree with you here, i feel that there are less interesting debates regarding the games future at present but i feel that a separate forum for that will just make the place more and fragmented

Unless I'm mistaken, on gamefaqs.com they use a system where you can only make so many posts per day depending on your 'karma' rating.

So maybe employing a similar system where we limit the amount of posts/threads a user can post will help. That should stop people coming online specifically to complain, and will cut any arguements down when someone runs out of posts.

A second idea could be for users to give 'kudos points' to other users depending on the quality of the post/thread. For a condescending, pointless post they would lsoe kudos and for a friendly, helpful post they would gain kudos. Then the user could post more replies/threads depending on their overall kudos level.

They were just some idea off the top of my head. Feel free to shoot them down

Whilst I haven't been on the forums as long as some of the other guys, it seems pretty obvious that most of the arguments / heated debates occur from the semi-unrelevant threads that are started, most of which are started by people who are very new to the forums (ie: signed up within the last couple of months).

When I first joined the forums, in the challenge / sign-up forum when you started a thread it had to be approved by a mod. This doesn't happen anymore and it is noticeable than there has been an upsurge in poorly thought out threads. In the GQ section, there's always been people starting semi-pointless threads.

Therefore, I know it would require a fairly large uptake in new mods to carry it out, but all new people to the forums could have their posts modded early on, more specifically if starting a topic, so that the number of situations for heated debate are minimalised.

Also, quite alot of the sniping starts from sometimes minor things, like txt speak or capitals, which mainly occurs because people have never read the forum rules. Now I know people can just go and look at them, but would / could SI come up with something so that as a one off when people signed in one day they were faced with a page clearly stating the forum rules in short sharp terms which had to be accepted before continuing. Now I know most people could say that that is pointless as most people will do what they want, but I'm sure a gentle reminder every now and again would cut quite a bit those incidents out.

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
LFC Lloydy & wwfan - I don't have a problem with heated discussions, as long as both sides respects the others opinion, and, if they don't, they should just not comment.

Making a point is fine. Making a point in a condescending way is not. Making a sniping post is also not.

We know that some people are finding the game too complex. It was one of the reasons behind our decision to make Football Manager Handheld. We'll also be trying to provide better guides for people on playing the game this year on this site, and with some of the features on footballmanager.net

By having these forums, and coming to them ourselves, we're also an easy target for people hiding behind their computer screens to have a go. It's something that isn't seen as much on the unofficial forums because it's not as obvious that we're looking at those. One of the options we have is to have them controlled by outside forces, so not come into them at all, which is what a lot of games developers do nowadays (and most bands/authors/films/other entertainment industries) but we really don't want to go down that route, as we think direct contact with our community and the people who play our game, and come up with such great ideas for future versions, is really important.

I absolutely agree that going down the route of an 'outsourced' forum would be a bad idea. Equally, the pre-game (manual) and in-game (Assistant Manager?) feedback should be improved. However, and here's the rub, improving it to the extent that what is currently an excellent simulation of the management experience (obfuscation, ambiguity et al) becomes a 'follow this script to win' will alienate many fans and make the forums somewhat redundant. I'm not suggestion you are ever going to go down this route, rather pointing out the paradox any company producing management-simulations-as-fun is going to face.

We all want to win and all get frustrated when we can't. For FM to remain a state-of-the-art simulation, a large degree of that winning has to be user generated. Otherwise, why bother to play it. If SI tells us how to win through perfect information guides it isn't a game any more. The forums should be a place that can discuss the hows and whys of winning without following a prescribed SI-given pattern. Finding the balance between too much and too little information is the key.

There are three types of forum abuser:

1: The arrogant 'you can't play the game. you're an idiot' type

2: The 'the game is flawed. You're an idiot and a cheat' type

3: The obnoxious 'I'm going to whine at everybody' type

Each requires a different strategy to manage. Types one and two do provide valuable feedback and need to be encouraged to post without the power trips. Type three should just be banned.

Maybe a few more of the good threads should be pinned than currently. Each mod could choose to pin the best posts (to a maximum of 10) in each forum. That way we get to see where the best discussions are at a glance. If any fails to muster much comment it could be removed and replaced with another contender. Does require an increased mod presence of course.

Originally posted by amack1n:
Unless I'm mistaken, on gamefaqs.com they use a system where you can only make so many posts per day depending on your 'karma' rating.

So maybe employing a similar system where we limit the amount of posts/threads a user can post will help. That should stop people coming online specifically to complain, and will cut any arguements down when someone runs out of posts.

A second idea could be for users to give 'kudos points' to other users depending on the quality of the post/thread. For a condescending, pointless post they would lsoe kudos and for a friendly, helpful post they would gain kudos. Then the user could post more replies/threads depending on their overall kudos level.

They were just some idea off the top of my head. Feel free to shoot them down

I think the karma idea is unfair and would simply segregate the community creating some sort of hierarchy. Someone who has been registered for years can be just as offensive and annoying as someone who registered a couple of days ago so it wouldn't really solve anything IMO.

I personally wouldn't like any system brought in that created some sort of popularity contest like the second idea seems to be. I also think it would be inaccurate and open to abuse.

Originally posted by amack1n:
Unless I'm mistaken, on gamefaqs.com they use a system where you can only make so many posts per day depending on your 'karma' rating.

So maybe employing a similar system where we limit the amount of posts/threads a user can post will help. That should stop people coming online specifically to complain, and will cut any arguements down when someone runs out of posts.

A second idea could be for users to give 'kudos points' to other users depending on the quality of the post/thread. For a condescending, pointless post they would lsoe kudos and for a friendly, helpful post they would gain kudos. Then the user could post more replies/threads depending on their overall kudos level.

They were just some idea off the top of my head. Feel free to shoot them down

i'm liking that idea. i for one think the kudos is a very good idea. it could also help see if someone online is a person to ignore or to listen to.

What about zeroising peoples karma as a possible means of punishments? Although to be honest alot of the culprits are new to the forum, but this would certainly eliminate the older users from pretending to be mods. (which I assume is something you want to crack down on too).

For the abusive stuff flung about, why not have a zero tolerance attitude and make abuse an instant yellow, followed by red. Be less forgiving about it and eventually people will get the message.

In the rules explain this zero tolerance policy so that people understand that abuse is being stamped down on. Ignorance should not be an excuse either.

Finally for pointless threads I think locking them is working at the moment, though obviously the mods aren't always on here so sometimes they run a little while before mods see them. As was said above, perhaps one or two more mods on at crossover times to the other mods normal times.

I used to be a member on a website where they asked you a set of questions about the rules on registering. That meant you had to read the rules. That worked pretty well as then they had no chance of saying they didn't know the rules etc.

Originally posted by Frankie 7:
I used to be a member on a website where they asked you a set of questions about the rules on registering. That meant you had to read the rules. That worked pretty well as then they had no chance of saying they didn't know the rules etc.

I reallly like that idea. From what I can tell many (if not most) newcomers don't bother looking at the rules at all. Perhaps it could also be used for people who have broke the rules, i.e. the mod makes it so they cannot post again until they have passed the test therefore making sure they have brought themselves up to date with the rules.

Originally posted by Frankie 7:
I used to be a member on a website where they asked you a set of questions about the rules on registering. That meant you had to read the rules. That worked pretty well as then they had no chance of saying they didn't know the rules etc.

also along these lines:

how many of us have read the rules in the time since you first read them? having them come up when you click into the forums would be an idea. or similar to in the game... random rules come up everytime you go to a new post/forum. just shooting them out there

Ok then after the people caught bullying, When they come back from a ban, They have to either re-register and start again as well as reading the rules, answering questions, Or just getting them to answer the questions before they get let back again.

Originally posted by LFC Lloydy:
I think the karma idea is unfair and would simply segregate the community creating some sort of hierarchy. Someone who has been registered for years can be just as offensive and annoying as someone who registered a couple of days ago so it wouldn't really solve anything IMO.

My point there was that if someone has been registered for years and still uses the forums would be very unlikely to start posting threads in capital letters or whinging etc, whereas a new user could have registered on these forums specifcally to let of some steam to SI themselves.

I personally wouldn't like any system brought in that created some sort of popularity contest like the second idea seems to be. I also think it would be inaccurate and open to abuse.

I see where you're coming from. In all honesty, any type of system which limits your posts can be extremely frustrating. Going back to the gamefaqs.com example, I was incredible annoyed that I could only post 10 messages a day at first. I was giving a few people helpful advice and then suddenly had to wait another 24 hours to help someone else or ask a question.

Having said that, there a no threads saying 'OMG, this doesn't work' or something like that, and there are almost no negative replies.

Also, I don't really think it'll become a popularity contest so to speak. In practice, I thought someone would ask a question in the forums, someone would then answer and the person who asked the question would be more than happy to give him a 'kudos' for his time. Conversley, if there's s post which was never intended to help, he'd lose a kudos point. Over time, this would ensure the people who post friendly, helpful replies can continue to do so whilst to people who post negative replies would have to stop.

How about 'helpers' who, instead of Mods, can answer questions on the demo etc, just people who are here and who can help those who might happen to get over excited and ask the wrong thing (it happens, hell I probably ask dumb stuff!)

Maybe a forum dedicated to a demo pre-demo launch could be created, perhaps an FAQ section, something people should see before they hit the forum and then can't be bothered to read through a 28 page thread (I can understand where they are coming from and so this would be my solution)

One thought I have is maybe set up one forum for new users to fm games that want general help in all areas.

New user comes to forum struggling with joe bloggs united asks who should buy gets abused gets told go to good player forum.

The same guy needs a bit of help with tactics i know from i started some the posts are on tactics are more advanced and in depth then someone who is new to the game may require.

It also helps some of the new members to the forum get used to the community and the type of forum we would all like. Getting to know other users in similar postions to themselves and the experienced users prepared to offer advice and help in the new users forum.

Matthew - and I blame posts like the one you've just made, for the bullying aspect. And both the bullying and the destructive pointless points have been going on for a couple of years now, getting worse and worse.

I really don't understand why people think making pithy, pointless comments is clever.

Frankie - that's exactly what I'm trying to stop from happening, and why I need the input of the people who are also wanting it to stop. It's going to be very tough to let others know (who don't come here anymore) that we've sorted the problems though, but we'll work out how to do that after we've worked out how to fix the issues...

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Frankie - that's exactly what I'm trying to stop from happening, and why I need the input of the people who are also wanting it to stop. It's going to be very tough to let others know (who don't come here anymore) that we've sorted the problems though, but we'll work out how to do that after we've worked out how to fix the issues...

Well i am sure some of the old members still hang around other sites so maybe a charm offensive once everything is in order. Word of mouth as well will soon get them back. But if everyone helps out rather than just SI, then this can be stopped and stopped quickly. This will take everyone helping.

Matthew Le God - you've obviously missed the point about what is wrong with these forums. Or do I have to add "pointless, pithy comments" to the terms and conditions, alongside bullying and the other stuff above.

Ive only been here since March and in the short time I've been here the forums have changed for the worse. When I first joined, many people were willing to offer help and advice if it was needed, with just a few been on the nasty kind. Since the first few weeks of me being here, people have turned more snipey and some members, (be they new or old), only offering unhelpful, patronising comments to newcomers. I'm by no means perfect, and at times have found myself making comments that I personally hate to be on the recieving end of.

Hopefully this will start to be cleaned up soon as many newcomers seem to be posting once or twice and then disappearing due to the rudeness of others.

As for suggestions, as has already been said, more mods would be a good move. But besides that I dont really know as Im not much of an ideas man. As I've said, hopefully things wil start to get better before they get even worse.

I agree with Ackter, and think a separate suggestions forum would be a great idea. Currently, there is one main hyperthread, and, unfortunately, there is some confusion about what kind of suggestions post should go in the big megathread, and what should be made separately. It is also a current problem that suggestions threads often don't get much input from the developers. I feel that in a separate forum, developers would be able to look at what suggestions are being made, without having to wade through all the other threads to see which ones do and don't contain suggestions. I also think it's getting quite hard to keep track of the suggestions in the big list thread.

As for rules and stuff, I think that all too often, newcomers are pounced on for, say, putting a thread in the wrong forum, because we see this all the time and it frustrates us. What we often forget is that this may well be their first thread. In these situations, I tend to just point them in the way, as they didn't do things maliciously. I didn't read the rules here before my first post, just like I don't read every game's manual before I play it. If I had created a thread in the wrong forum, and was helpfully pointed in the direction of the correct place to post my thread, it would be great, but too often this doesn't happen, which will put new users off.

Personally the idea of an outsourced forum is a good one, for a major company SI's forums are pretty bog standard and are not much fun and that's not just down to the quality of the forums, the interface is dull and lifeless whilst the lack of options for users such as no edit feature or multi quote can make the place abit stoneage compared to other forums. ie. I use the main unofficial forum for watford fans which was created when the official boards were in dissaray and then most official users (inc.myself) moved to the unoffical one (www.wfcforums.com).

The new place was far more exciting, properly moderated with troublemakers being dealt with rapidly and the software being used was lightyears ahead of the official boards which used Premium TV (awful) whilst wfcforums uses v-bulletin which offers loads to users such as user avater's and signatures etc etc.

Old users who quit the official boards came out of hiding and enjoy posting amongst fellow WFC fans whilst any trouble was rare and dealt with suitably well by mods.

Personally i think the main problems on here are the amount of newcomers asking about a release date and completely ingnoring the rules, plus threads about AI cheating etc etc.

These threads are high in number and often force good threads out of sight and then decend into an argument. Side issues are condecending users who have a high karma and seem to think they're above most people, now i'm not saying all high posters, just some.

I agree with what Ackter and Walrus say regarding a seperate section for suggestions and perhaps around this time of year a temporary area for threads regarding a release date. Hopefully all those release date threads will go in there and those who have an ounce of common sense can avoid that area. This would then reduce the amount of hostility and arguments.

The search function isn't promoted enough, a small button that says "find" isn't going to grab people's attention and prevent them from creating a duplicate thread of something already mentioned.

It is clear that when a new game is released, the forums become very busy with new posters who have just got the game, Many of the frustrations for the more experienced users of the forums are due to the complete disregard of the rules by a % of these posters who have neither read the rules or care about their implementation.

The suggestion above about ensuring all newcomers have read and know the rules would be good.

What about having a Karma level below Amateur, from say 1-100 posts, to highlight those new users with little forum experience. There should be a world of difference between an Amateur with 10 posts and one with 900 although they have the dame Karma tilte. This at least will let other users know who is new to the forum and ahould help with the bullying you allide to.

With absolutely no criticism to the existing Mods intended, there is also a need for constant Moderating, which happens when the game is released ( when all the SI guys are online ), but which naturally falls off as the next version approaches. Although we can understand the reasons behind it, there is little help offered in the Bugs Forum and the Help for PC Users forum, once the initial rush is over and that must cause serious unhappiness with those people who are coming to the game late and, although their problem may be a common one, are not getting any input from either the forum users or the developers.

If there is a problem with the number of Mods available, perhaps you could have specific Forum Administators, without the full discipline powers of the Mods but with enough authority to give warnings and help with keeping the forum tidy and efficient. It is clear that , at the moment, the tightest run forums are those with strict rules and fairly ruthless moderating so maybe there is a lesson there.

If there is a problem with the number of Mods available, perhaps you could have specific Forum Administators, without the full discipline powers of the Mods but with enough authority to give warnings and help with keeping the forum tidy and efficient. It is clear that , at the moment, the tightest run forums are those with strict rules and fairly ruthless moderating so maybe there is a lesson there.

I think my idea would work, its similar to what you have said;

"How about 'helpers' who, instead of Mods, can answer questions on the demo etc, just people who are here and who can help those who might happen to get over excited and ask the wrong thing (it happens, hell I probably ask dumb stuff!)"

Miles. Having certainly made pointless, "pithy" comments myself, out of frustration and anger at the general shambolic nature and content of this forum, I welcome this new direction.

GQ has become a sort of a "sift through the carnage" zone in the last year or so.

What I believe to be the problem, (and you may not agree with me at all here), is that the small things are not picked up on all too regularly. Because of this, other people feel that they can do the same, (and in many cases a little bit worse). What you then have is a snowball effect where the problem hjust grows and grows.

The idea that I've read above where you have a day ban, (or even a week ban, or both in a sliding scale), is something that i think is an excellent idea.

In order to do this however, you need to moderate the forums effectively. At the moment, that seems easier said than done with poor Glyn seemingly chasing his tail most of the time.

With the recent case of the guy committing suicide on-line after abuse in an albeit very different type of forum I commend this direction.

I would suggest a rolling penalty for offences that can be gone through one by one, but whose steps can be bypassed for severe acts/comments.

If Mods and SI employees took as much notice of "normal rule infringement", as they do comments about no cd cracks and questions about non-licensed teams then I don't believe that we would be in this situation.

Somebody mentions a no cd crack and it's an instant ban and topic closed within a couple of minutes.

Someone mentions how to get the German or Dutch national teams playable and it's closed before you can think "how many times".

But abuse and general ignoring of the rules that set the standards in GQ on a day to day basis are constantly ignored even though there are many SI employees around.

As many people have already suggested, I think more comprehensive moderating combined with new disciplinary measures could help things.

To me it seems that far too many people are not bothered about getting a yellow card for acting inappropriately on the forums, if this were to change to a short term ban for a number of hours, days or weeks I think less people would do it.

Perhaps we do need more non-SI moderators who specifically work on this forum, at the moment we only seem to have Glyn doing the job, with people such as Ter etc. filling in to cover it. I know it is run differently, but the LLM forum seems to have a lot more specific moderators who seem to provide round the clock moderating in order to make sure the forum runs the way they want it.

Originally posted by Nene_Park_Faithfull:
I think, instead of closing threads that are causing problems because they are in the wrong place. I think you should move them instead. Or is this a long process?

I think it is fine as it is, a closed thread with a reason in it sends the message to other users about what is and isn't allowed in this forum. By moving them all, more people would be unaware of what sort of threads don't belong here and where they should really be.

unfortunately it's a path that are taking a lot of forums lately As far as these boards are concerned, though the local language forums is a great idea, I hope it will not be closed down because of such problems (especially the french one)

Personally I think the problems started when the FM Forum opened without having assigned moderators in place. In the old days of the CM Forum you had Smiley Dan and Hoista assigned to the forum so you knew that these guys (in the main Smiley Dan as he just seemed to be around more during the times I was on, which at that point was pretty often) were in and keeping a tight rein on things.

For my money Smiley should have automatically been given the FM Forum moderating gig as he had the right sense of knowing when to assign cards, when to just give verbal warnings etc. Without the moderators assigned then you never knew when a mod was going to be in the forum and as new members signed up who weren't really au fait with the rules i.e. no player naming, tactics talks etc then it would often be the older users (myself included) who would, a lot of the time gently ask users not to post certain topics. In my case I would always back up with why i.e. player naming spoils the game for players who want to find their own players etc.

Obviously this then created a culture where a lot of the more immature posters would automatically get on the back s of all new members etc and be really nasty about it, therefore making it a more unpleasant place to be.

I fee l slightly guilty about my part in building this culture because (and it's not my ego talking here I hope) I feel that as a long term user of the CM/FM Forum that I had a responsibility in trying to keep things out of the Forum that shouldn't have been there and as a result others jumped onto the back of that, but with less politeness. I would say there were two or three other longer term users that were of the same ilk of myself and they no longer seem to be around either as much.

By the time SI started to get some sort of grip on it I think it was already too late. There has been a really unhealthy atmosphere on this forum for about the last 18 months and is a huge part of the reasons why I have practically given up posing in here. While I've been critical over certain aspects of the game since it became FM, I was often still in here helping other users with problems and trying to remain constructive with the criticism over things I don't like.

Howver, as one poster said earlier in this thread because FM games now seem to fall into two polarise camps - those who find the game too difficult and those who love it (for the record FM 2007 is the best game SI have produced and has reinvigorated my love for the series) you would see the same arguments taking place all the time, with a lot of users quicking crossing the line from constructive criticism to personal abuse. With no mods in on a regular basis the FM Forum has become a place where you no longer want to come and hang out.

I tend to keep my activity now to just coming in, having a read of the odd thread and posting when I feel I can add something that hasn't been said. However, you still see the same arguments and the same levels of abuse.

A reaffirmation of the forum rules and the addition of a moderating team assigned to this forum, someone that the users can see as a 'face' for the forum if you like, would be a good step in the right direction.

A team of two to three permanently assigned moderators would be a good start. I just hope that SI pick these carefully if they go down that route.

I could pick a couple of users myself who I think could do the role and I would like to name them as I think they embody all that is good and constructive about these forums - Dave C and dafuge. They are constructive in what they don't like about the games and friendly about the way they go about helping others, even though like me DaveC isn't around as much as normal I think he'd be a good choice.

Worst choice would perhaps be Ackter, who even though as I like as a poster myself, but has rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way on here and has been at the heart of a lot of the arguments.

There also seems to be a lack of consistency with the application of the rules as well in terms of some users being warned/carded for things that other users seem to get away with. There has to be consistency across the board otherwise people get confused and lose faith. For example, I remember one thread where a couple of people were swearing and avoiding the swear filter using the same word, yet only one of the users was carded while the other wasn't. Should be one rule for everyone.

If Mods and SI employees took as much notice of "normal rule infringement", as they do comments about no cd cracks and questions about non-licensed teams then I don't believe that we would be in this situation.

Somebody mentions a no cd crack and it's an instant ban and topic closed within a couple of minutes.

Someone mentions how to get the German or Dutch national teams playable and it's closed before you can think "how many times".

But abuse and general ignoring of the rules that set the standards in GQ on a day to day basis are constantly ignored even though there are many SI employees around.

The topics about No-CD cracks and licensing restrictions are usually easy to spot and put a stop to via a quick scan of the topics. General abuse and rule breaking can happen in just about any topic so it's not as easy to spot and do something about. Quite often we're quite busy (especially recently) and don't have time to look through every topic in the forums.

One of the big problems IMO is people reacting in an angry manner to people who come in the forums and ask about things that are asked all the time like release dates and demo releases. At the end of the day we've got a lot of casual users who will only want to find out when the game is out or when they can play the demo. With some people reacting the way they do I would be surprised if they ever come back.

All we can do is put something in the forum header with the latest information we have and if you don't have something positive to reply with then don't bother. If it annoys you then close your browser and leave it to us to reply with the information asked and lock the topic if necessary.

The topics about No-CD cracks and licensing restrictions are usually easy to spot and put a stop to via a quick scan of the topics. General abuse and rule breaking can happen in just about any topic so it's not as easy to spot and do something about. Quite often we're quite busy (especially recently) and don't have time to look through every topic in the forums.

One of the big problems IMO is people reacting in an angry manner to people who come in the forums and ask about things that are asked all the time like release dates and demo releases. At the end of the day we've got a lot of casual users who will only want to find out when the game is out or when they can play the demo. With some people reacting the way they do I would be surprised if they ever come back.

All we can do is put something in the forum header with the latest information we have and if you don't have something positive to reply with then don't bother. If it annoys you then close your browser and leave it to us to reply with the information asked and lock the topic if necessary.

I appreciate what you say there Ter, but if you look at the other side of the coin, users who are in every day do get fed up with seeing the same questions being asked time and time again, usually multiple times on the same page because the people asking them are too darn lazy or stupid to take a look at what else is in the forum before posting.

However, I do agree there are ways to deal with that be it not posting or even if you do post do say in a way that is a bit more human and friendly.

I appreciate what you say there Ter, but if you look at the other side of the coin, users who are in every day do get fed up with seeing the same questions being asked time and time again, usually multiple times on the same page because the people asking them are too darn lazy or stupid to take a look at what else is in the forum before posting.

However, I do agree there are ways to deal with that be it not posting or even if you do post do say in a way that is a bit more human and friendly.

I get a bit fed up with them as well but I don't think an appropriate response is "ffs do a search". Like I said, there are a lot of casual users who will just come in and ask a question. They shouldn't be hit with a wall of abuse / unhelpful replies. If they can't reply normally then don't bother.

I can see only one problem with getting more people to moderate the forums. You would have to pick who moderates very carefully, people who know what they are doing and arn't biased in any way.

An example of this is the Man Utd forums, where to be honest the mods are kind of like Nazi Germany. I posted an opinion of a player on there, just a general "well I dont think he's that great" and got banned by an over excited mod because of it even though I had just expressed an opinion and not been offensive in any way.

I suppose having a sticky topic that only the mods can access at the top of every page in each forum subsection containing all the usefull things people might need information about, IE: release dates, patch releases etc etc etc would help with the people posting many many topics of the same nature.

Originally posted by Indoctrin:
I can see only one problem with getting more people to moderate the forums. You would have to pick who moderates very carefully, people who know what they are doing and arn't biased in any way.

An example of this is the Man Utd forums, where to be honest the mods are kind of like Nazi Germany. I posted an opinion of a player on there, just a general "well I dont think he's that great" and got banned by an over excited mod because of it even though I had just expressed an opinion and not been offensive in any way.

I suppose having a sticky topic that only the mods can access at the top of every page in each forum subsection containing all the usefull things people might need information about, IE: release dates, patch releases etc etc etc would help with the people posting many many topics of the same nature.

Doesn't always work though... in the tactics forum there are stickies which are routinely ignored.

These are the very reasons I spend less time on these forums at the moment myself, so any improvements that can be made get a big from me.

The forum rules are constantly broken by old and new members alike resulting in animosity amongst differing groups.

The more experienced members need to learn the arts of tolerance and diplomacy as they should be the ones helping the new members, not immediately jumping upon any new forumite who happens to post something they deem incorrect.

Negativity breeds negativity so the older and apparently wiser heads around here need to start remembering that they were new here once too and more than likely made the same mistakes for which they now berating the junior members.

There seems to be a vicious circle whereby new members come in, make mistakes and are jumped upon by older members. The newer forumers then see this behaviour as the norm and emulate it. As a lot of new members are under 16, they are very impressionable and a short while down the line, they become the ones jumping down the throats of new members and so the circle continues.

The best form of action in my opinion would be the education of newer members of the forum by the older ones in a tactful way rather than a derogatory one.

Posting messages such as "Do a search FFS" are unhelpful, unfriendly and down right rude. A better response would be to explain the use of the find feature to the member and link to a relevant post which answers the question (if such an example exists).

By tying up a new thread on an old subject to the relevant answer, it would make the search better as there would be links to the most appropriate response to the question.

The impetuousness of youth will always mean that when a new user signs up, they will immediately charge into the forum and ask their question (especially if they haven't used a forum before) and there is no antidote to this. I'm pretty sure that the majority of members here did exactly the same thing themselves when they first signed up (I'm pretty sure I did too).

What is needed, in my opinion, is the older and allegedely wiser people around here remembering what it was like to be young and impulsive and, rather than get upset, pass on their wisdom and education to the junior members in a polite and informative manner.

By doing this, we teach the newer members decorum rather than abuse.

Hopefully this would slowly end the cycle of animosity as the younger ones are no longer learning that abuse is okay.

If Mods and SI employees took as much notice of "normal rule infringement", as they do comments about no cd cracks and questions about non-licensed teams then I don't believe that we would be in this situation.

Somebody mentions a no cd crack and it's an instant ban and topic closed within a couple of minutes.

Someone mentions how to get the German or Dutch national teams playable and it's closed before you can think "how many times".

But abuse and general ignoring of the rules that set the standards in GQ on a day to day basis are constantly ignored even though there are many SI employees around.

The topics about No-CD cracks and licensing restrictions are usually easy to spot and put a stop to via a quick scan of the topics. General abuse and rule breaking can happen in just about any topic so it's not as easy to spot and do something about. Quite often we're quite busy (especially recently) and don't have time to look through every topic in the forums.

One of the big problems IMO is people reacting in an angry manner to people who come in the forums and ask about things that are asked all the time like release dates and demo releases. At the end of the day we've got a lot of casual users who will only want to find out when the game is out or when they can play the demo. With some people reacting the way they do I would be surprised if they ever come back.

All we can do is put something in the forum header with the latest information we have and if you don't have something positive to reply with then don't bother. If it annoys you then close your browser and leave it to us to reply with the information asked and lock the topic if necessary.

Ter. I am not sure where you got the impression that only positive comments are allowed on these forums.

While I fully appreciate that SI would prefer more positive comments than negative comments, the simple fact is that without the sometimes negative feedback that you see on here, the game wouldn't have progressed to the level it is at now.

Constructive feedback is is probably what you meant, but it is certainly not what you said, and gives me an an idea as to your priority lies in terms of what is right and wrong with this forum.

If SI, took a harder line on people doing such things as opening ridiculous numbers of threads on the same subject, (while there is a sticky in place about that subject), abusing other users, and generally abusing existing rules, then we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

I get the impression from reading some of your recent comments, that you feel existing members of the forum are giving it a negative reputation and not making it a welcoming environment for new users. Maybe, rather than criticising some of the existing users for their well-meaning efforts, you should have taken steps to rectify the situation yourself.

I have lost cout of the number of times that you have chosen to concentrate on a humerous (but non abusive), response to a ridiculous thread, than the opening of the thread itself.

As for Gavnoble's comments, I completely agree with the proposal of Dave C and dafuge as the sort of people who could benefit the forum if asked to and if they were so inclined. Although I normally agree with most of what Gav says, (it's not brain surgery), I really don't like the way that he used Ackter as an example of someone who shouldn't be given additional responsibility.

I regularly disagree with Ackter's comments, but that does not mean that i or anyone else has the right to abuse him. After the release of the demo, (and full game), last year, Ackter was subjected to an almost constant barrage of personal abuse that stepped way over the line as far as I'm concerned, and despite me reporting much of what I saw, there seemed to be very little action taken in response by SI. (I appreciate that when a poster is post-modded there is no visible consequences).

If SI want to improve this forum, then I would suggest they should start to implement some of the existing rules rather than bleat about the consequences of their taking little or no action for such a long period.

Without mentioning names, how someone who gets a ban on one account for improper use of this forum, and a lifetime ban on another account for creating an alias while banned on the first account, is allowed to come back into the forum with the original account, (what's the point of a life ban on one account?), and then is offered a position to test FM08 is beyond me. Then while testing, he repeatedly breaks testing rules and posts on here just to get a reaction out of the people not is such a lucky position. When this is brought up, your response, (it's not personal so SI's response rather than the individual), is that should the person be punished and do we want him hung drawn and quartered.

We don't want anyone hung drawn and quartered. We want the existing rules enforced on a day to day basis so that we don't have to put of with the sort of shambles that we have been subjected to over the last year to 18 months.

Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
As for Gavnoble's comments, I completely agree with the proposal of Dave C and dafuge as the sort of people who could benefit the forum if asked to and if they were so inclined. Although I normally agree with most of what Gav says, (it's not brain surgery), I really don't like the way that he used Ackter as an example of someone who shouldn't be given additional responsibility.

I regularly disagree with Ackter's comments, but that does not mean that i or anyone else has the right to abuse him. After the release of the demo, (and full game), last year, Ackter was subjected to an almost constant barrage of personal abuse that stepped way over the line as far as I'm concerned, and despite me reporting much of what I saw, there seemed to be very little action taken in response by SI. (I appreciate that when a poster is post-modded there is no visible consequences).

I agree partly with what you say and maybe it was unfair of me to name Ackter. As I said I do like Ackter as a poster myself but at times he hasn't done himself any favours by the way he gets drawn into arguments. The abuse he got was unwarranted and I agree that more should have been done to reduce the abuse being directed towards him. In the CM GQ days the mods would have been down on those conducting the abuse a lot harder.

I just wanted to make the point that if SI do go down the way of putting permanent mods in this forum then they needed to pick users carefully. Ackter for me would be an unsuitable choice purely from the way he polarises user opinion about his posting style. He's basically the Marmite of the FM Forum in that you either like him or hate him!

Me I like him but I know many don't.

Nothing personal or offensive meant Ackter old chap. Indeed I'd put myself in the same bracket with you as Marmite!

Ter. I am not sure where you got the impression that only positive comments are allowed on these forums.

While I fully appreciate that SI would prefer more positive comments than negative comments, the simple fact is that without the sometimes negative feedback that you see on here, the game wouldn't have progressed to the level it is at now.

Constructive feedback is is probably what you meant, but it is certainly not what you said, and gives me an an idea as to your priority lies in terms of what is right and wrong with this forum.

I was meaning in the context of release date / demo release threads and not the forums as a whole. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Of course negative feedback is welcome about our games, as long as it's done constructively.

I get the impression from reading some of your recent comments, that you feel existing members of the forum are giving it a negative reputation and not making it a welcoming environment for new users. Maybe, rather than criticising some of the existing users for their well-meaning efforts, you should have taken steps to rectify the situation yourself.

I do feel that way and some of the comments made in some of these threads have been unacceptable.

It's not down to me to take steps to rectify the situation myself. I only help out when I get a chance when often I'm a lot busier with other stuff and don't have the time to dedicate to sorting out forum affairs.

We don't want anyone hung drawn and quartered. We want the existing rules enforced on a day to day basis so that we don't have to put of with the sort of shambles that we have been subjected to over the last year to 18 months.

And that's what we're trying to do. It's been a very busy period at SI this year with us moving to new surroundings, a lot of new faces to help get settled in as well as the various games we have to make! I'm sure you can appreciate that the forums weren't high on the list of things to sort out in relation to the other stuff but we're taking steps to put that right now.

Originally posted by Ackter:
Even though I have much less time on here these days, it's still disapointing that there's nothing I really want to get involved in when I'm here.

I think a seperate Suggestions forum would be a good thing.

Most of the time, I feel this way too. The suggestions, especially the well thought out ones, are the real meat. There's only so much to be said about one of the features of the existing game, but additions can be debated for hours. Even better when someone becomes really passionate about them.

You know you're in for a good thread when somebody breaks out the diagrams.

Definitly think the forums have declined. Just need to deliver some tough love. Be more prepeared to ban people for bad and unfreindly behaviour. Those that get banned might not like it but it will mean a much nice community.

I'm just here for the first time in a very long time. Would have to check my own posting history to figure that out. Before, I have been around a lot of time, even more than my karma rate indicates.

I'm happy to see that one of the main reasons why I haven't been on here for so long is being addressed.

On topic, I absolutely agree with Jimbokav and Gavnoble. Good to see there are still some people around who I remember for their good and constructive posts.
I don't think we need new rules. We just need them enforced.

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
We're currently thinking about changing the rules and terms and conditions of the forums so that this bullying behaviour is stopped, and the forums become a vibrant place again. So this thread is for suggestions of how to do that - I'm not planning on revealing what I'm thinking of at the moment, just want to get ideas from the regular users of the forums.

Stupid comments and insults (which I've seen on a lot of threads today whilst looking at a few things) will be dealt with accordingly in anyway I see fit. So please behave, and type nicely.

do the rules need changing? or do the current rules need upholding?
i would think the current rules cover everything that's needed.

Probably the only Chinese guy goes to Leeds' away game. Occasionally accompany by the missus

Posts

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Originally posted by Dayle Wood:

quote:

Originally posted by Indoctrin:
I can see only one problem with getting more people to moderate the forums. You would have to pick who moderates very carefully, people who know what they are doing and arn't biased in any way.

An example of this is the Man Utd forums, where to be honest the mods are kind of like Nazi Germany. I posted an opinion of a player on there, just a general "well I dont think he's that great" and got banned by an over excited mod because of it even though I had just expressed an opinion and not been offensive in any way.

I suppose having a sticky topic that only the mods can access at the top of every page in each forum subsection containing all the usefull things people might need information about, IE: release dates, patch releases etc etc etc would help with the people posting many many topics of the same nature.

Doesn't always work though... in the tactics forum there are stickies which are routinely ignored.

In fact, what i found in the tactics forum is that you get idiots who like to starts up rubbish threads up to annoy the mod over there.

I agree with the post about more information on SIBase, but I feel it would be useful if it was easier for people to find too.

There have been, on occasion, alot of posts in General Discussion about people having problems - yet there is no link to SIBase in GD or an FAQ at the top. There is also no link to the support forums in General Discussion and people that don't think to scroll through the forum main page may find it easy to miss as the technical assistance threads aren't in the 'Football Manager Forums' bracket.

Alse, alot of the agressive posts (in my opinion) seem to be towards subjects that have been covered many, many times, a general FAQ thread stickied at the top that is updated every now and then could solve some of that (in the way that the Football Manager 2008 sticky seemed to vastly reduce the number of "Football Manager 2008???" threads being created), obviously it won't totally put an end to overly repeated discussion, but it may help a little.

There have been, on occasion, alot of posts in General Discussion about people having problems - yet there is no link to SIBase in GD or an FAQ at the top. There is also no link to the support forums in General Discussion and people that don't think to scroll through the forum main page may find it easy to miss as the technical assistance threads aren't in the 'Football Manager Forums' bracket.

Pretty sure there are links in the appropriate forums (ie. Technical Issues and Bugs Forums)

The FAQ idea has been tried before, Gav used to write an excellent one on the old CM forums. It didn't stop people from asking the same old questions like 'why is Freddy Adu ineligible?' but at least it gave something for people to point people in the direction of.

Originally posted by DJdeMarco:
Another suggestion I have would be to stop the use of a couple of the negative smilies which are used to belittle other users here.

The two I am referring to are the "Banging head against a wall" and the "Rolleyes" smilies.

I use smilies a lot. When you feel that you are having to repeat yourself over and over again without the message sinking in I think use of the seagull is apt and I use the rolleyes for loads of different reasons, (including self redicule when I have been stupid).

Originally posted by t.hatch:
think people returning from bannings under a different name needs to be clamped down upon, seems too easy for people with negative and disruptive attitudes to come back time and time again

New board with complete amnesty on bans the only real solution?

Let me ask you my good friends, is it a coincidence that the timeframe Miles refers to started with the loss of such good mates as Foobr and Wicks? (This is rhetorical.)

Originally posted by DJdeMarco:
Another suggestion I have would be to stop the use of a couple of the negative smilies which are used to belittle other users here.

The two I am referring to are the "Banging head against a wall" and the "Rolleyes" smilies.

I use smilies a lot. When you feel that you are having to repeat yourself over and over again without the message sinking in I think use of the seagull is apt and I use the rolleyes for loads of different reasons, (including self redicule when I have been stupid).

If you take away smilies, what will be left ?

It is only those two smilies I am referring two though, there are plenty of positive ones.

Whilst I agree that there are good uses for them, the majority of their use on the forum is to ridicule others.

Your example of the message not sinking in is a perfect example of what I mean. You aren't getting the message across so you use that smiley in frustration at the other member not getting what you mean.

This is taken by that other person as ridicule and then the abuse starts.

As the saying goes "A picture paints a thousand words" and in this case, the words are mostly negative.

Originally posted by Miles Jacobson:
Matthew - and I blame posts like the one you've just made, for the bullying aspect. And both the bullying and the destructive pointless points have been going on for a couple of years now, getting worse and worse.

I really don't understand why people think making pithy, pointless comments is clever.

I'm probably going to get a yellow card for having the audacity to complain, but recently i've seen mods posting "pithy, pointless comments" so in all fairness miles what can you expect from the people on these forums?

As i've commented on recently (and got a torrent of abuse in reply, thank you very much) is that mods seem more fixated on closing threads for text speak and posting about things they don't deem worthy (a recent topid about the egyptian leagues springs to mind) rather than dealing with general abuse and mroe recently abuse (and jokes made at the expense of) people with limited grasp of english.

Having tried to defend people in both these circumstances all i got from several regular posters was more abuse and people trying to justify taking the **** out of somebody who had trouble with english (who has yet to return to these forums, i hope the intollerant haven't scared him off) this was until a mod (credit where credit's due - glyn) came and sorted it out, but didn't bother with as much as a yellow card.

Frankly bans are useless. The way you register for these forums means people can just open an account in a different hotmail account, however i can't see a better way to deal with these people.

More mods is a definite requirement, but also more attention given to general abuse, if the mods took abuse as seriously as text speak and no cd cracks this problem wouldn't exist.

I haven't read most of this thread, so if any points have been made before i appologise.

Originally posted by Ter:
Pretty sure there are links in the appropriate forums (ie. Technical Issues and Bugs Forums)

Maybe we could make it easier to find.

What I meant was in the 'Subforums:' and header section at the top of the GD page. It links to the latest patch, wishlist, 360, handheld, editors, graphics, tactics, players, online, challenges and rules forums - yet doesn't direct you to the technical support or SIBase forums. I know a few people that use these forums and they generally bookmark GD and not forum selection page.

Pretty much everything else other than bugs forum, offtopic and LLM stuff is linked there. I just figured it would be seen by far more people as GD seems to be one of the places where alot of the people looking for answers about playing the game seem to go first.