Thinking about it, that was the first time i've ever been denied a kiss in my whole life! I guess I usually only go for the kiss when I am 100% certain that she wants too (say she's being super flirty and touching me loads and loads or sometimes even outright verbalising/asking for me to kiss her).

Frustrating night. Was feeling confident after the relative success in my previous post, but the girls just weren't interested AT ALL last night. I don't think I done anything different to last week, but it just seems that the girls don't like talking to strangers in my town.
Didn't really get the opportunity to learn much last night as most interactions stopped at around the open!

Sometimes feel it's more about getting lucky in terms of finding sociable/friendly girls to talk too than it is about 'skill'.

Probably going out again tonight although not expecting many girls to be out as the sports bar my friends are taking me too hardly ever has girls there.

Obviously not always, but sometimes. Much more likely in my home town. I never get close to 'turning it around' with them sort of girls. I've tried 'ploughing' and 'stacking the open' and trying to ramble etc, but I think at night, girls that aren't interested in you feel much more entitled to just be rude and flat out ignore you. One of those things I guess

(01-23-2017 04:44 AM)Corollary Wrote: If so, what exactly are you saying to them and how are they responding?

I say various things to open. It doesn't seem to really matter. The same opener could BOMB with one girl and lead to a long conversation with another girl.
On the most recent example, she 'responded' by saying nothing at all and just looking at me for a second and then looking in front again

I think I need to accept that some girls will just be like this and to try to not let it bother me too much. If a girl looks at you and thinks you are not her type (classically handsome or whatever) then expect to possibly be ignored.

Just need to not let if effect the rest of my night as much as it tends to do

Might be going out tonight, but talking too a slayer friend of mine this morning (Boring, but good looking guy. gets about 100 bangs per year. Doesn't approach girls. Either they approach him, or he just gets laid when he feels like it from tinder) has got me into a depressed mind set! Need to snap out of it if I want to get my target of one lay this year!

Ended up going ou last night too a local bar. Not many girls there unfortunately. Opened the only group of single looking girls sitting together that I could see, none of whom were particularly hot and were older than what I like (even though they were probably younger than me! lol)

I had a 'ready made' opener which was nice, since they had just been doing a pub quiz which gave me a kind of 'natural' opener.
I was able to make them laugh a bit and stuff, but when I tried to be a little bit flirty with the prettiest one, she (at least rather politely) told me she wasn't interested

Probably out tomorrow night.

Got a sore throat, but need to keep going out to give myself a shot at my TARGET of ''1 lay in 2017''

The whole "looks don't matter" thing is quite true on the one hand, but for practical purposes, as in your case and for any guy who goes out cold approaching at night, looks actually matter quite a lot. There may be other factors as to why you're being denied right off the opener, but a lot of them can simply be attributed to the fact that you don't "appear" to be the "type" of guy who is attractive.

Women aren't attracted to healthy, long locks of hair or a great body as absolute deal breakers as we men are, but unless they have more information about you, they will assume all they can from your initial appearance. This is largely composed of your physical attractiveness, body language, and general vibe. Your friend on 100+ lays is actually given a shot by many of the girls who reject you at the start, because of the whole "initial judgment" thing.

The more approaches a women receives in a certain setting, the more quickly and efficiently she needs to filter for those she is willing to entertain. The standards for the "initial judgment" go up the more she is approached, both in general and on that particular night. Similarly, the way women filter for men online can give you the impression that women are just as shallow as men, but that's just their initial filter. "Game" is real and for men not naturally well versed in the process of seduction, study and practice is necessary, but... In the UK in 2017, being average looking with an average vibe and average game can get you shut out right before you can even begin. This is why you should do all you can to maximize your looks, vibe, and initial opener, but it's also not your fault or a reflection of you as a person that you are being shut out so brutally so often. Within your social circle you could be a major player, better than any of the better looking guys within it, and you could have all the girls after you; this is because the girls in your social circle have information on you that random girls who know nothing about you do not. If the random girls are rejecting you based on initial superficial factors, they could very well be wrong, but they are just going on probabilities. 99% of guys who look like X in the past have been losers, so they filter out those guys. On the other hand, say 20% of guys who look like Y have been cool, attractive guys, so they allow approaches from this type, even if it is a shitty "Hi!" opener.

As you get better, many girls will still reject you based on their initial superficial judgment. Their assumptions may not be true, but there's nothing you can do to change their minds. I'd like to think that girls will somehow "pay" for their wrong decisions in their haste to filter out unsuitable men, but in the UK there are no social repercussions of rejecting men. Some girls even enjoy it.

You are gaming in hard mode, that's for sure. The circumstances as described above are against you. You have great courage to go after you want despite the huge challenges you face.

P.S. Your 100+ slayer friend will almost invariably be laying inferior quality chicks with the occasional decent, very very occasional hot girl. Even "good looking" guys have to approach or be active in some way. He is likely very good at screwing around on tinder using his looks, bringing girls home quickly and escalating smoothy, via repetition. He has the "backend" of his game sorted very well. Nonetheless, anyone doing numbers like that in the UK today is in the top 1% and you could possibly learn things from him, what it is exactly that he does, and what you could do as well. You cannot get his looks, but you can get other useful tips. I was lucky enough to come across a 200+ natural in my early days of PU, and most of the advice that worked for me was to do with logistics and escalation, converting "attracted" prospects to actual lays. He was lethal at that.

Thanks.
I'm glad to see you post in my thread. I've seen one or two of your posts around here and actually intended to ask you to have a look at my journal but got sidetracked!

(01-30-2017 09:15 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: The whole "looks don't matter" thing is quite true on the one hand, but for practical purposes, as in your case and for any guy who goes out cold approaching at night, looks actually matter quite a lot

I certainly agree, although I try not to get too hung up on 'looks' if I can possibly help it, and try not to mention them!
Reason one being that I don't want to come across as a 'game denier' (I often see people being accused of such if they mention looks) or even a troll! (unlikely given the content of my posts, but stranger accusations have been made! )

Reason two being that there's not much we can do about them! (I already go to the gym/eat healthy and dress well, but I'm bo no means 'good looking')

From my own experience, i'm well aware that people can 'punch well above their weight', however, I've basically never seen it be done from a cold approach. ALWAYS with social circle girls or girls through work after spending 5 days per week with them for 6 months for example.

(01-30-2017 09:15 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: friend on 100+ lays is actually given a shot by many of the girls who reject you at the start, because of the whole "initial judgment" thing.

P.S. Your 100+ slayer friend will almost invariably be laying inferior quality chicks with the occasional decent, very very occasional hot girl. Even "good looking" guys have to approach or be active in some way. He is likely very good at screwing around on tinder using his looks, bringing girls home quickly and escalating smoothy, via repetition. He has the "backend" of his game sorted very well. Nonetheless, anyone doing numbers like that in the UK today is in the top 1% and you could possibly learn things from him, what it is exactly that he does, and what you could do as well. You cannot get his looks, but you can get other useful tips

It's actually 100 ish lays per YEAR (I think he said the average is like 80 per year) (and they really are all rather hot girls from what i've seen!)
Nowadays it's basically all through tinder for him from what I see, but a few years ago when we used to go out 'pre tinder' he really didn't seem to be active (approach) in any way. It really was a matter of girls approaching him, and him deciding of they were hot enough to bang or not! I can't even tell you that he was at least coming across as a fun guy from a distance and drawing attention to himself because he didn't! He just sipped his beer quietly, and wanted to talk boring shit with me!

(01-30-2017 09:15 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: This is why you should do all you can to maximize your looks, vibe, and initial opener, but it's also not your fault or a reflection of you as a person that you are being shut out so brutally so often

I've done most of what I can do in terms of looks without venturing into deeper waters (cosmetic surgery like a rhinoplasty for example)

Can you offer advice in terms of 'openers' and 'vibe' out of interest? (bearing in mind i'm all about 'night game' in UK bars and pubs, so it's not as 'high octane' as some RSD video in a Vegas club!!)

(01-30-2017 09:15 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: As you get better, many girls will still reject you based on their initial superficial judgment. Their assumptions may not be true, but there's nothing you can do to change their minds

I guess this is the hard truth that isn't easy to hear? That 'game' isn't powerful enough to seduce very superficial girls. If they think you're not physically attractive, all of theh charisma and confidence (game) won't be enough to 'turn her'?

(01-30-2017 09:15 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: Within your social circle you could be a major player, better than any of the better looking guys within it, and you could have all the girls after you; this is because the girls in your social circle have information on you that random girls who know nothing about you do not.

You are gaming in hard mode, that's for sure. The circumstances as described above are against you. You have great courage to go after you want despite the huge challenges you face

What sort of information are we talking about? You mean just knowing that 'he's a fun, charismatic guy who i'm confident isn't a serial killer' kind of thing? I mean, it's not as though i'm rich or anything

And you mean because i'm relying on cold approach as opposed to social circle? (is that why you say i'm gaming in hard mode)

And finally, since the age of about 23, my social circle dwindled away a fair bit. When I got out drinking, it's only me and a few other single guys. There's really no girls in our social group. Occasionally one of my 'non-single' friends will bring their girlfriends out, but that's it.
I don't work with any girls so hard to build a new social circle full of girls from there. Everytime I see a big 'mixed group' of people out at night, they are always much yougner than me. Seems to be something that generally dissappears after a certain age. Would be nice to have a big, mixed social circle in order to have 'another angle' so to speak, but not sure how at all, to be honest.

Most of the bars were fairly quiet so I only started making approaches when we got to one of our regular bars that is a bit more like a small club as it has a dancefloor and stuff.
There were 2 girls by the bar. One of them was a 9. Easily. As hot as hell. My brother said she was like the prettiest girl he'd seen all year, lol.
My bro and the other guy I was with never approach so it was down to me.
I opened her. I can't actually remember what I said. I think I might have just stolen the default opener used by Vadim of honestSignalz where he just describes her, so I might have opened her by just looking at her and saying ''Girl in the yellow dress!!''
She didn't give me an instant rejection which was nice and we started talking a little straight away.
I heard my brothers friend behind me, talking to my brother about me just after I opened her, and he said ''He's good, isn't he!!'' lol. Made me chuckle. I think he meant 'brave' as opposed to 'good' as he's well aware that I NEVER get laid.
We spoke for a bit. Since she was so hot, I thought i'd take some 'game' advice and use some mild negs like how MaxRSD says to assume that they have a crappy job, so I think when she told me to guess what she done for a job, I said ''Waitress??''
She acted offended. I'm not sure whether she was actually offended or she was kind of playing. Turns out she is a lawyer in training and a stripper/dancer!
Once we'd exchanged basic info (age, job etc) and done some light teasing, I couldn't really think of what to say and the interaction kind of fizzled out.

After that, I tried to game her friend. Not as pretty, but good enough. I tried to build a connection in terms of working out what sort of person she was. She told me she'd been travelling and then I said she must be an adventurous person and I tried to guess what she was like when she was younger and what she was like in school and stuff. All things I've read about in pickup books. But after a few minutes her sister turned up (super hot and barely legal) and then she didn't seem to want to talk to me any more.

Next I saw a girl I who I actually briefly mentioned in one of my previous FR's. Someone who rejected me a different time
I spotted her and I could tell that she didn't recognise me (it was some months ago) so I though 'fuck it' and tried again!
I opened her by saying ''You look like you're from (xxx part of town)'' (I remembered from out previous interaction)
She was like ''Yeah!! How'd you know?''. I said ''It's written all over your face. It's a gift I have''
Then we started talking a little bit and I told her I've spoken to her before. She had an equally gorgeous friend with her and I think I tried my luck with her after the other girl kind of stopped talking to me. She wasn't interested either, though.

Then I went into a different part of the bar to get a drink and there 3 chubby girls dancing around, and one of them started grinding on me. I kind of spun her around being playful. Then her friend started grinding on me and she was prettier, although still fat.
We were kind of holding each other and I after a while I though i'd kind of 'test' her reaction/feel her out. Basically something I read recently where you come close to kissing her, under the plausible deniability that you actually just want to talk into her ear. You gage her reaction as you get close. As I got close she looked really freaked out like she was horrified that I might be going in for the kiss, so I bailed soon after. She must not have been into me and was maybe just playing with me.

I probably approached maybe 5 other girls after that on the dance floor, but nothing came of any of them.

I got some bad 'feedback' earlier and now feel even worse than before! haha.

I spoke to my brothers friend and I mentioned the pretty girl (dancer girl). He then said ''She told me you were boring. She said you kept asking about her job!''. (He is as bad with girls as me, though. He never gets laid either, so it kind of hurt to hear him say that to me! As if he's Russell Brand or something!)

I remember hearing him say ''How is he doing?'' to her shortly after she walked away from me. He seems to always use this as his opener as an easy 'in' for when a girl has just rejected me! (asks them how I was doing in terms of trying to pick her up)
I imagine that's when she told him that I bored her. However, she did come back to me briefly after she rejected him too.

But the thing is, I didn't 'keep talking about her job'. Shortly after I opened her it went a bit quiet. I read that i'm supposed to 'make assumptions' about her rather than ask questions, so I guessed what she did for a job. That's when she told me about her dancing and that she's studying law and stuff. I think I just asked her WHY she wanted to be a lawyer or something (people tell me to ask teh 'WHY' questions). The work topic didn't last more that minute or so but I guess I maybe shouldn't have brought up 'work' at all?

But the thing is, people always tell me what NOT to say, but I'm kind of left with nothing to talk about! I have no idea how to get into a 'fun' conversation after opening.

Most infields online are daygame as opposed to nightgame, where the 'bar' seems to be lower, and people always DO tend to ask the questions that i'm told not too. Maybe because there's less need for 'fun' in a day game environment with all of the distractions etc, and I can't seem to find that many education nightgame vids with infield.

I think I need an actual 'script' or some routines that I always go into after I open or something. Also need to watch about 500 nightgame infields to see if I can spot any patterns

I'm skeptical of guys who claim 100+ lifetime, let alone nearly 100 per year. Let alone 100 with any sort of majority of decent quality. If you haven't seen him in action properly, and you rely on his word reporting what he has done from online, you can never be sure. My only experience with this is that very good looking guys routinely get rejected both online and in night game. Someone elsewhere on the forum made an excellent point: the "pussy inflation" that you see in the UK that first happened by torrents of attention for all women, even fat warpigs, has translated into real life such is the central role of social media/dating apps on smartphones these days. I've seen guys who look like Abercrombie models get subjected to pretty similar shit that most normal guys get. They don't suddenly have cheat codes to escape the reality of the market. The 100 a year from Tinder must mean a huge surrounding population, because there are plenty of good looking guys online who don't game in real life spamming as well. Most of the girls online seem to be physically low quality and also mentally low quality often to the point of mental illness. SJWs, neon hair, tattoos, piercings, fatties, single mothers, drug addicts, bipolar, personality disorders... that forms 99% of what I see online. It is sad that these types are forming an ever greater % of real life population, but there are still lots of relatively good quality girls out there in real life, often only to be had with very, very good night game & a lot of luck, or day game and a lot of luck, or most commonly social circle and a lot of luck. If your friend bangs 80 per year from online, I don't know where he would be getting his good quality girls from, because online is generally where the worst of what is already a pretty bad bunch congregate. A tiny, tiny minority may be genuinely hot and not insane, but for them it's usually for attention/seeking validation after a break up etc.

I agree there is nothing you can do about your looks bar some drastic action such as plastic surgery. I said you are gaming on hard mode because you are in the UK first of all and second you are doing cold approach at night with (I assume) average looks/style/game. This is 2017. Roosh recently did a podcast about "the death of night game" (in the west) and while it's not completely dead he gave about 16 reasons as to why. You can use your common sense to get the gist of it. Militant feminism being enshrined into both culture and law, dating apps, smartphones, things have changed greatly over the past 15-20 years. Roosh talked (quite amusingly) about how when he started in 2001 his go-to technique for the opener was just grinding his boner on a random girl's ass as she danced in the club. Now he would probably be accused of sexual assault or some other shit that would have been seen as ridiculous back then. You've got to be increasingly in the top 10, then 5, then 2, then 1%, decreasing as time goes on, to get anywhere with a lot of these girls. They're so bombarded with attention from very high quality guys, even the 4s and 5s (girls you would be embarrassed to be seen with but would bang once at least) that they naturally develop delusions that they are worthy of and should only consider the top 1% of guys. But they are confusing a horny man's desire to sleep with a woman with a man's willingness to actually introduce a woman to his parents, marry her etc. I'm not saying night game is impossible, I'm saying it requires a lot greater effort and performance than it did, say, 10 years ago. It comes to a point where you are making valiant efforts, depleting your own emotional/financial etc. resources just to get rejected by a bunch of fatties.

I saw another post recently by someone who talked about how guys on this forum tend to be common sense, pragmatic, min-max guys. What he meant was that a lot of members of this forum do try to improve themselves as much as possible within reason, but they also are aware of factors beyond their control in the wider market which may be a far greater determinant of success or failure. Most adjust accordingly by trying daygame, finding little niches within night game, finding little niches within a social circle setting, or (of course) taking trips abroad or even complete expatriation. Your efforts are admirable but at the end of the day a hole is a hole. White americans are genetically Europeans from various countries. We're all descended from somewhere in Africa. We're all immigrants of some sort. A british hole isn't better than a polish hole just because it was harder to gain access to than the polish. A 6 is a 6 and a 7 is a 7 (let's ignore superior personality of foreign women and judge based on looks alone).

I mention going elsewhere because it may be that you've got a situation which all the reasonable attempts at game in the world cannot fix. It depends because no one here has seen your interactions consistently. If you can fix the problem(s), then it means you have some quite serious problem(s) that are holding you back. Vibe is something tons of PUAs will say something different about depending on who you ask. I would simplify it as non-verbal subcommunication that is inherent to each man's personality. Every man's vibe is different and it can be changed but there is often a deeper element of a man's energy that is relatively constant and like his looks there is nothing he can do about it. A man can have that "pussy dust" kind of vibe, the glint in his eye, and he can talk shit about a girl's job and she will think he is really fun. Another man does the exact same, even when keeping the looks constant... he is "boring". The recent "feedback" you mentioned might therefore be useful. It's harsh but maybe girls are finding you to be the boring/serious "type" no matter how hard you try. It might be almost as difficult/impossible to shake as your naturally given looks. Especially in high energy night game where girls demand nothing but the best entertainers despite being boring as hell themselves...

Girls have evolved over millions of years to sniff out for men who get laid and to identify impostors. So you could be doing great routines and it might still fall flat. There is a certain frequency of subcommunication that women understand, process and make their decisions upon, while we men are often unaware of what we are projecting at that frequency, if that makes sense. You're reasonably lost as to what the hell to do. If you could improve your "vibe" it would be through deep change, it would be very difficult to fake. Experience with women and success with women (getting laid and in sexual relationships with women), even in easier environments to start off with, tends to have the most positive effects. You'll notice you're in a catch 22: if it is the vibe, then you can't get laid because women sense that you most likely can't get laid, so you stay the same person who can't get laid. You fear to go for the kiss but maybe it was that uneasy feeling of seeing you so scared or nervous that repulsed the girl; if you had been genuinely cool about it as comes with experience, she might not have seen it as such a big deal.

You can try to do routines to fake it till you make it, it's dirty but a viable strategy. Other guys just get laid and remain the exact same guys and can only get laid when PUA clown act is turned up to 100%, a lot of RSD guys spam approach like this but hey they are doing it the only way they can.

BTW a stripper slash lawyer is likely to be batshit crazy. Don't take what she said to heart, but I think it's one of those comments where what a woman said might actually be some good honest feedback, so try to use it as such.

Sure work on your "outer game", maybe with different conversational skills, routines or whatever, and trying to project positive vibe etc., but if that doesn't work you might want to consider at some point prioritizing the whole "can't get laid" thing, ending that vicious cycle, getting used to escalating and banging in an easier environment. It's sort of like you're trying to learn a language, say a really hard language, a slavic language for example, and you're being started on the final chapter of a hardcore advanced final year degree level textbook, or going to the gym a weak 120 lbs emo kid, and setting the weight at 300 lbs to bench press. It's impossible to improve from that. As I said no one has seen your interactions consistently to say whether this is or is not the case - you could make great improvements where you are - but if it is then it may be worth considering a more reasonable environment where you could possibly build up to the very high level of game and general standards required where you are gaming at the moment.

On your recent approaches and what you're saying. Even when you don't get rejected immediately the interactions seem to fizzle out. As unfair as it may seem at night you really need to lead the conversation without much hesitation, all the while ensuring she doesn't get bored by what you're talking about; if she's not entertained more than her friends or her phone or getting even more drunk she will bail. Night game on dance floors is very tough for introverts. Guys who are "naturals" enjoy the environment, don't overthink things, are good at small talk most of us think is completely pointless, and manage to sustain the "fun" enough to keep the interaction going and pull her out of the club then home (or to the toilets or to an alley, the couple of naturals I knew were not fussy...) For me personally, high energy nightgame is something I have done but even after I got laid from it, I felt very mixed. After the bang, I kind of resented the girl for reducing me to the function of a clown, using up my own energy to keep her boring ass entertained enough so that I could bang her. Physical and mental exhaustion every time. Meanwhile the naturals were bouncing around from group to group... they just walked up to groups of girls on the dance floor and hugged them all, they radiated happiness, they were partying like they had just won the superbowl but not in a clownish manner, they were also calm and could talk to the girls about whatever when they wanted and could escalate/extract when it was time. They could ask girls bland questions about herself, sometimes even deep questions but it would all be done with a fun vibe and the girls would be entertained.

"Copying" them improved my game and knowledge but I also learned I could not be them indefinitely, even if I got some lays out of it. Some guys just aren't built that way. So I chose quieter venues like bars that didn't have blasting music, drinking places but not necessarily dancing places. I chose places where I could have deeper conversations without having to shout, and still escalate and pull etc. I still had to entertain but the energy levels and speed was slower. Day game is slower still. And surprisingly boring. I started to enjoy how boring I could be in the day. The best day game looks boring, because it is sustainable. The guys who run around with super high energy levels burn out, unless they're genuine extroverts who as in night game get a buzz from it since they derive energy from the environment. The naturals I knew were very socially savvy so they adapted to day game without the common excessively high energy due to what is usually required at night, but they still preferred loud bars and clubs and did far better in these venues than I did. Some guys are well suited to certain environments but do particularly badly in others - that's just nature.

But if you're staying in those bars, the two biggest things you can do are learning to move the interaction forward, both verbally (conversation) and logistically (movement and escalation), while improving your non-verbal communication (as above, MUCH easier said than done).

Yes, this needs to be improved, but I really am at a loss for some tangible advice that I can put into practice. Like I say, people often tell me what NOT to say after I open a girl at night. ''Don't bore her and ask where's she's been / who's she's with / how old she is / what she does for a job / things that average AFC's ask'' etc - And i'm thinking ''OK, but then what DO I say to get a fun conversation started after I open?''

But this isn't ALWAYS the issue. Like, I can't just blame that for my failures. For example, if I open with some sort of roleplay opener then (assuming she doesn't reject me instantly) this usually leads to a much more fun, unfiltered kind of interaction. But I can't really rely on them sort of opens as in some environments, they can actually do more harm than good as they can come across as a bit socially incongruous.

Also, on some occasions, a more 'fun' conversation just seems to happen, but I think this appears to be when the girl herself isn't boring and seems to want to talk, and asks me questions etc which gives me a chance to actually try to banter with her of that makes sense - Basically, if I don't open in a weird way, and if the girl isn't istantly somewhat into me (which obviously most aren't!) then i'm kind of screwed, wondering what on Earth I should be saying to have a 'fun' interaction and not bore her [/quote]

(02-06-2017 05:48 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: but if that doesn't work you might want to consider at some point prioritizing the whole "can't get laid" thing, ending that vicious cycle, getting used to escalating and banging in an easier environment.

It is something that I think about. I have noticed that on a number of journals here where people are struggling, they go to the Philippines and start edigetting laid, and then posters assume that finally he's 'learnt game at last!', but I always think it's just a temporary fix as a white guy in that environment and that as soon as they go back home, then they'll be unable to get laid again. This happened to my cousin. He was a virgin until very late in life, went to S.E Asia - got laid lots. Probably assumed he was now a stud and had 'game', came back home, and was back to square one. I'm not ruling it out, but maybe i'm more interested in cracking the code than just getting sex. I guess if it was simply about 'sex', i'd be a regular in the red light district!

I'm actually going to Hungary for a few nights soon (hopefully). I wonder if that'll be noticeably 'easier'/less hostile or not? Or are we only really talking about S.E.Asia?

(02-06-2017 05:48 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: I said you are gaming on hard mode because you are in the UK first of all and second you are doing cold approach at night with

It feels like an excuse/cop out for me to say that the UK is 'hard mode' (i'm sure there's UK posters here who probably get laid all the time) but I have to admit that other than one or two 'outliers' who I know (as mentioned before) who have a huge advantage due to their looks, I don't know anyone who does especially well from cold approach. In fact, i'm possibly the last person I know out of my single friends who got laid from a cold approach, funnily enough!! (discounting teh 2 studs)

But yeah, any thoughts you have on the 'after teh open' / fun / conversation starters would be welcome.

edit: our posts crossed over slightly. I should mention that the bars that I usually go to are NOT really teh sort of crazy loud clubs. Think more a bar which has a small dancefloor section. It's quite possible to have a conversatino without having to shout unless you are on the dancefloor and really close to the speaker (which I don't tend to do)

1. The problem with the "tell me exactly what to say" is that a successful interaction with a girl from open to close involves so many little things going back and forth between you and her that it's impossible to give you an exact "script" as to what to say. This is unless you go back to hardcore studying of routine based game so taking routines from the Venusian Arts Handbook, and Revelation, by Mystery/Lovedrop and the book that Lovesystems wrote... Magic Bullets (could not recall the name for a while it was so long ago!). That one I think recognized the logistical progression more than Mystery's stuff which was heavy on verbal game but didn't emphasize enough the importance of logistics. Then there will probably be routines manuals in certain places that need invites (PM me if you can't find them). This is basically going back to some old school routines games and being an actor/clown/entertainer that the old PUAs used to be in the early 2000s. You would have to write down, learn and practise what to do and say at every point in the interaction, note the most common responses and have your own responses for these etc. This stuff could either help in the end after a lot of practise or just screw you up more.

I gave up verbal routines many years ago and worked on my "ramble". Most of it though was just right girl + right time + logistics + escalation + not saying any stupid shit. Right at the start there might be a bit of teasing if she is very hot but it would be situational, about the way she is dressed, her job etc. A lot of the stuff you seem to be saying... but negs can either come off well or they can just make you look like a socially retarded idiot. Even a well done neg can work wonders on one girl but piss another girl off. The failed negs I'm talking about wouldn't work on either. Teasing is something that happens so fast sometimes that it's hard for routines to duplicate. It's basic back and forth banter, and when you start to see she is interested, asking questions to get her to "invest", then you just have to not fuck up, escalate and sort your logistics. One reason why you may not have received satisfactory responses on here is because you can't necessarily make someone good at socializing by telling them a good few lines. It would take a lot of in person tuition and even then some guys just don't have the gift of the gab and never will. Some guys are autistic and no matter what you do or say to them they cannot process social cues and respond to them within social interactions in a way conducive to getting laid. Aside from that some guys just have terrible vibe/non-verbal communication and again giving them a few verbal routines will not change that. Deeper overhaul is required.

Example: One guy can say "Hi!" and a girl is interested. Another guy can say "Hi!" and the same girl is repulsed. This is holding looks/style/environment/time basically everything else constant, the only variable changed being the man's non-verbal communication. That's a huge part of "game" but is very difficult to teach. In hard cases it requires actual change in the fabric of who the man is, change often only resulting from significant life experience.

2. Location has been debated ad infinitum on the forum. There's a difference between a place being difficult but still sometimes worth the effort due to the quality (Ukraine, Russia) ... and places which are extremely difficult and extremely hostile to certain personality types ... where cold approach does get men laid but they often lament the quality. There are hot women in the UK but as a % of the population small amounts compared to many other destinations. My threshold is when things become obviously unreasonable to any sufficiently rational man. It is ironically both a cop out and a reasonable response to consider leaving. It all depends on whether you think the juice is worth the squeeze. The Phils are known to get guys average-decent looking asians (note, not p4p) who are priced out of their native markets. You go to Australia and you consistently see good looking, jacked, well dressed men walking hand in hand with ugly warpigs, you see it enough times and you start to realize something is wrong. Some of the top guys can get the small % of hot girls in Oz or UK, but most have to settle for average or ugly. For you the Phils would just give you a taste of actually getting reasonable return for your effort, some regular sex, and a welcome break. You'd get used to escalating routinely, be more comfortable touching women etc. The hope is that this would translate to better vibe, better ability, and better results back home. Hungary is a place where you'd need more than a few days to get reliable data, and it's still nowhere near the Phils, it's still hard there. But it would be interesting to see how you do there, if you can get as many approaches as you can doing the same thing as you do at home, you could compare, to see whether it is you or the environment stopping you. But again a few days is not enough for reliable data. Better than nothing though.

Some way between UK and Phils would be places such as Hungary, Croatia, Romania etc. They are NOT easy pickings like Phils or Thailand, but they don't yet have the extremes of female obesity, masculine behavior, militant feminism, smartphone and dating app addiction, etc., so if you are not the problem with time in those countries you will start to see results. They do require stays of a few weeks/a month at least, to properly reap the rewards. In EE if you start to get 1, maybe even 2, bangs per month (vs your target of 1 per year in UK) ... you would likely start to thing about how the hell to get out of the UK and stay out.

was in a different town to my usual town where USUALLY, I tend to get better results as the girls seem to be a little less hostile, but last night was tough and it felt more like being in my home town with the bitch shields of lots of the girls.

I've recently been reading Mystery Method on the advice of some people. I've read basically every other pickup book known to man, but some people suggested that it might help me to link certain things in my head better.

I don't really want to be a routine monkey, but i'd be willing to do anything if it got me laid, lol.
Anyway...

Approach 1

I walk out of the bathroom just as another girl walks out at the same time. I look at her and say''Hey! two seconds''. She's like 'yeah?' and stops. I start to tell her that I don't live here, and just as I start, another girl walks out of the girls bathroom and says ''Leave her alone! She's my sister and she's not interested!'' and grabs her by the arm. Then 2 more of her friends also walk out (They'd all been in the bathroom together like girls do) and they just all walked away giggling.

Approach 2

2 young girls are laughing and kind of dancing around in the pub. Not a club so they kind of stand out. I walk up too them and smile and say ''You guys know how to party!'' They're like ''we know!''. I say ''what are you celebrating?''. They say ''We've got boyfriends''. I smile and say ''That's what you're celebrating? Congrats, I guess!!'' They laugh but kind of turn their backs

Approach 3

Different bar. A girl is dancing on the dancefloor. She's reasonably hot but looks like she needs a good shower. Looks a little bit 'rough'. I just grab her hand and spin her around. She complies. I ask her name and where she's from. It turns out she's from my hometown (that explains the 'rough' look!) We chat a little bit, but it's more of a friendly chat. I'm not really sure how to escalate in the moment. Don't really want to just blurt out ''Anyway, you're hot'' kind of thing. At this point, my friends want to go too a different bar anyway so I say goodbye

Approach 4

In more of a club/bar now. I see a super hot teenager just about to walk past me (don't forget i'm 29). I kind of double take, and I think she notices. I decide to try a more direct approach. I say ''hey! You just made me hurt my own neck as I spun it around to look at you! You're hot!''. She laughed and said ''that's a good one!'' but she didn't stick around for me to even follow up. She kind of never stopped walking

Approach 5

There's a woman dancing kind of close to me. She's decent looking,but I can tell she's older. I'm obsessed with young girls personally. I open her and say ''who are you?''. She is immediately somewhat receptive. We go through all of the usual 'where are you from, how old are you bla bla bla stuff''. All teh while i'm slowly ramping up the touch. Her friend comes over and tries to cock block a little. I take some risks here since I don't really care about this girl since she's 39 and I like girls who are 18 (in fact, 16 is legal here). So I kind of start negging her friend a bit and then as the friend looked offended I grabbed her and laughed. I kind of got her 'on side' a little bit, and then I pulled the girl towards me a bit and then leant against the wall. Then I put one of my feet on the wall so that my knee was kind of in between this girls legs and then rocked back and forth a bit so that my thigh kind of rubbed her pussy. Put her into a bit of a trance. For a second I almost tried to finger her which is a stupid stupid move, but I think at some point alcohol can make you forget certain rules! She was like ''I'm not that kind of girl'' but still didn't leave me. Then we started making out. Her friend wanted to leave a little after this. I didn't really think about somehow trying to get back to her place. I just don't find older girls all that hot. She kept saying ''do you want my number!!?''. I took it just for the sake of it.

Approach 6

I'm on the way out of the club now. It's late. There's a hot girl who looks about 18 with blonde wavy hair and she's dressed up in lke thigh high socks and stuff. I walk to her and say ''You are the funkiest looking girl I've seen all night'' and smile. But I can tell straight away that she's got an attitude and she just kind of repeats my opener as a question ''I'm the funkiest person you've seen all night?'' but her 'vibe' is hostile. Her tone and body language suggest she's bored of being hit on/spoke too by strangers. I'm like ''Yeah! You look like you belong in a punk band''. She says 'OK' and then looks at me in a way to suggest ''You can go away now'' lol. I consider trying to somehow plough on and see if I can somehow get her to smile, but I just can't be bothered at this point. Feels like a fools errand.

Thoughts: Fairly rough night, really. I done OK with the old girl. I was making her laugh lots and was being playful, BUT, I think it's one of those things that other guys do where they attribute their success to their 'game' when really, she was just into them straight away (usually from their looks). I could have maybe just been a boring fuck, but since she's old and maybe found me somewhat hot and liked the attention, she might still have made out with me. Kind of like it's only ever POSSIBLE to actually game someone when they are blatantly into you from the start.

And being shot down very fast by all of the hot teen girls sucked. I'ts the only reason I do this!!

Hopefully going out for a midweek session this week, so possibly another FR on route, soon...

Christ man that's rough... It seems in the UK as well as the US online attitudes have almost fully translated into real life at night. The hot young girls are in such high demand they have a boyfriend plus about ten orbiters plus about 2-3 other backups if their current boyfriend doesn't work out or she gets bored plus hundreds of contacts every week via their phones. All this means that they feel like mini celebrities when they go out at night and might only be receptive to the top 1% and even then top 1% guys have problems with attitude as well.

I've found a lot of younger girls, I mean barely 18, can sometimes have less attitude just because they haven't had as much time exposed to their phones or bars and clubs. What I mean is you can get 4s, 5s, and 6s at night who have just as bad attitude if not worse than 7s and 8s so you may as well go for the hot ones. But you're never free from the market you're trying to game in.

There might well also be something on initial approach that makes them decide instantly you're not "cool" or there is something "off" about you, and the MM book doesn't really help with deep internal issues like that. You have to actually change as a person. As I said though, it could just be a case of you going out at night in places which are going to be brutal to 99% of guys regardless of how much they try to improve themselves. A lot of these anglo girls are showered with attention and praise from so many directions they start to believe they are entitled to a professional basketball/soccer/NFL etc. player or musician/actor. If you're in a rough area, and the girls are rough, at the moment they're probably getting banged pretty well by the local bad boys. Some of the girls could be reasonably polite in the day/social circle environment, but as you've seen terrible at night. I wish I could offer you more advice than that but without infields it's hard to know whether it's you or them (or a bit of both).

Is there any point where you're going to consider quitting and trying maybe night game and day game in EE? There are cheap flights out from the UK and living costs are cheap too. If you did well there then it might enable you to tell between whether the main problem is actually you or the rough environment you're trying to game in.

(02-20-2017 04:35 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: There might well also be something on initial approach that makes them decide instantly you're not "cool" or there is something "off" about you

That's naturally something that I worry about, but if that was the case, I don't think I'd get ANY good reactions, and I do! It's just that most of the time, the hot, young girls are very dismissive. Older girls and uglier girls tend to be much more receptive. I imagine that if I came across like a psycho creeper or something, then even they would always tell me to go away.

But let's explore the 'vibe' briefly, just for the sake of it. Other than smiling/appearing friendly, and body language, is there really much more someone can do to improve it? What might someone who's vibe is 'off' be doing? And what are tehy 'projecting'? Or even, what SHOULD ones 'vibe' project?

In what ways might someone need to 'change as a person' in order to fix any internal issues which effect his 'vibe'?

(02-20-2017 04:35 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote: Is there any point where you're going to consider quitting and trying maybe night game and day game in EE? There are cheap flights out from the UK and living costs are cheap too. If you did well there then it might enable you to tell between whether the main problem is actually you or the rough environment you're trying to game in.

How long out of interest would one need to spend there to give themselves an idea? I was hoping to go to Hungary soon with 3 friends, but the plans appear to be falling apart as they aren't very committed. but it would only have been for a few nights, anyway. I don't earn much money, so money is always a factor in my life.

Also, I was a bit put off by 'Destiny's' journal. He seemed to get no more success in EE than he did in Canada (which I guess is similar to the UK). Things only seemed to get better for him on SE Asia which didn't surprised me, because even my cousin who was a virgin well into his 30's managed to get laid in SEA. I imaging that EE will be very similar in terms of success, but from what I read, the 'rejections' as are least a lot less brutal than the Uk girls!!

I would love to spend a few weeks in EE with someone, though. Gaming together. I just don't really have anyone in my social circle who'd be up for it.

Really? You get better reactions from the ugly and older girls? Most of the time I find they are bitter and the pretty girls are on average more friendly, so I may as well approach the pretty ones. The exception is the sluts/slutty looking girls who have dress and makeup like they are trying to pull some professional sports player, the ones who appear quite bitchy. There can be some surprises in there but generally there's a "happy medium" where there are ugly(bad reaction)-nice pretty(good reaction)-slutty pretty(bad reaction). That's just a generalization, always exceptions, but I'm surprised you get better reactions from ugly girls as even these are bombarded with attention nowadays.

You might have more confidence/less anxiety going into girls who you expect to give you good reactions vs those you expect to blow you off harshly. Chicks can pick up on this. Other than that, I know this won't sound very helpful, and is not what PUA coaches will tell you but... as much self-improvement as you do... some guys are just "cool" and some guys just aren't. Then there is all the guys who are in the middle of the spectrum. Have you ever watched naturals (who actually get good results) open similar sets of girls? I have and it was eye-opening. Sets open like a knife through butter. I took what I could from it, and improved, but could never repeat their results. No especially good looking guys amongst them, just cool, sociable, easygoing, positive dudes with good killer instinct. I'm way too antisocial and pessimistic to come in with the same energy as they do. I use different tactics, different venues, trying to use my strengths to my advantage while minimizing the negative impact of my weaknesses.

Apart from being "naturally cool" and the stuff you mentioned, your non-verbals that are changed when you change as a person relevant to girls consists of actually banging hot girls... Yeah it's a catch 22... But if you haven't banged pretty girls like the ones you're approaching, it's like a lot of them can "smell" it. Like in the instant you approach, the first few things you say, the way you say it. It sucks because to bang these hot girls you need to at least be given a chance, but to get a chance you need to have banged similar hot girls, but you can't bang those hot girls without being given a chance... ad infinitum...

EE at least might give you a bit of a chance to bang some good quality girls and improve your confidence and vibe that way. Either you might want to stay in EE where your return on investment is better, or you might want to (or have to) return home and go in to those rough sets not completely, but at least slightly, changed for the better, and see how you go.

A few nights isn't enough. In these forums they are known as "bang missions". Around a month so that you can get some good reliable data, gaming in day and night. I do the same at certain times of the year so if money is your problem try take the next 6 months or so to save up and we might meet in EE. Otherwise this forum has a few guys in each major city in EE/SA (and SEA but that's a last resort). Also, you've been doing very well gaming on your own. If worst comes to worst, you will be able to game on your own in a decent EE city. At the end of the day, gaming is about you and the girl, unless you plan to have a MMF threesome... There are advantages and disadvantages of having wing men. It's not all good. Most guys from UK go on cheap flights to EE for a few days (usually stag parties) and hope to score easy EE girls but as you saw from Destiny's example EE is not easy. Unless you have a great niche, US/UK/CA may not be worth the effort for most guys. Quality is going down, both physically and personality wise, but the price is going up to stupid levels. Just because things might be more reasonable in EE that doesn't mean to say it is easy. I would argue that the market is greatly distorted in the anglosphere, not that it is distorted in EE. That means that it may not be ridiculous that the US/UK/CA can seem at times, it's just closer to "normal". And that "normal" can still be fucking hard for most guys, especially doing cold approach. So yeah, you could bomb in EE, it's not the promised land like some outdated guides have made it out to be. Even Roosh admitted after Bang Poland that things have already started to change over there and that there are better destinations etc.

I agree that for expatriation to be worth it, it has to show significant advantages over UK/US/CA (where we're from). If we get the same results with women then apart from a much better lifestyle outside of women, it might not be justified to move permanently. Especially because not everyone can manage to be location independent with their job. That's the purpose of these scouting trips. We test the local market and the local lifestyle of various places, in the hope of finding one that gives us a better quality of life in the most important respects.

If I were in the UK, personally I'd do EE first due to the cheaper flights. Then SA. Then if that doesn't help, I guess SEA is there. SEA has helped save lives of men who couldn't get laid anywhere else for the life of them, or found it prohibitively hard to bang the occasional landwhale. So I'm not here to knock it. Even if I station permanently in EE or SA, SEA is a trip I just have to make.

''You might have more confidence/less anxiety going into girls who you expect to give you good reactions vs those you expect to blow you off harshly''

I thought about that myself, but I honestly don't think that the case. I tend to ALWAYS expect a somewhat negative reaction whether hot or not! This isn't so much an 'inner game' issue as a logical belief based on the results of a fair few approaches now! I don't feel as though I approach an uglier girl with any more confidence than a hottie, really. Uglier girls tend to give me a better reaction, but I assume that's because their bad looks increase my relative 'value' since I doubt they think they can pull Leo DiCarprio?

That brings me onto another topic - I saw a thread on these forums where someone was talking about gaming whilst on various meds/drugs.

I wonder if such an experiment would provide me with any feedback. People often advise me that the reason for my instant rejections must be because of bad INNER game. Lets say that *that* basically means too much anxiety and not enough confidence.

Now, going back to the aforementioned thread, people were talking about how their game improved on things such as xanax since it made them not give a shit whilst also eliminating any hint of anxiety, which transferred onto the girl.

I wonder if I was to make lots of approaches whilst on such a drug and still came up short, would that effectively rule out my 'inner game' issues being the reason for my failure? So if I still bombed, the issue must be with the girls simply not finding me 'hot' or whatever?

Anyway, it's my birthday today. When I began this thread, I Was hoping to get laid from a cold approach before today if i'm honest!!

Happy birthday subterfuge. Seems to me that experimenting with different tactics is a good idea if what you're doing now isn't working, but I'd be careful about developing a dependency. With that said a lot of people use alcohol to reduce social inhibitions or anxiety.

(02-22-2017 11:51 AM)RunsWithScissors Wrote: Happy birthday subterfuge. Seems to me that experimenting with different tactics is a good idea if what you're doing now isn't working, but I'd be careful about developing a dependency. With that said a lot of people use alcohol to reduce social inhibitions or anxiety.

Thanks, old bean! I mean at some point you have to try things, I guess. Some people tell me to 'just keep on going', I guess in the hopes that the mistakes will iron themselves out. But i've made so many approaches now, and too often, I am getting rejected right off the bat. Not always, but way too often.

My thinking is:

1) They could well think i'm hideous/ugly and so reject me. I work out and dress well, so there's not much more I can do about that, assuming that IS the case.

If that is Not the case, then;

2)It's my 'game'/words I use/opener? But then, most people agree that your opener doesn't matter. Lots of people advise 'Just say 'hi'!'' Hell, I can do that! I've done that! I've also experimented with all other types of openers. The6ix used to always follow that up with a rather uninspired ''how's your night going?'' I can do that, too. If it works for him....

So with that in mind, and assuming it's not the words that i'm using, then ;

3) It must be something in my sub-communications and 'vibe'?

Assuming it's my 'vibe', then it must be an 'inner game' issue.

4) Since 'inner game' basically refers to anxiety/too outcome dependent then in theory I can test this with something that eliminates anxiety and outcome dependence!

If I still keep getting early rejections, then I can eliminate 'inner game' from my list!

This might sound daft, but one other 'possibility' that I can think of is my resting bitch face! I know it sounds silly, but I was reading a sub reddit the other day about someone who was convinced strangers were cold to him because he couldn't help looking a bit angry due to his naturally down-turned lips! Well, I have had a resting bitch face my whole life! (it's basically the result of the position and tightness of the muscles in the mouth, the position of your lower jaw etc etc). I obviously try to counter this by smiling when I approach, but when I talk, I can still look a bit aggressive/angry/serious/scared, plus I think it can look a bit odd to be forcing a smile the whole time you speak! As you can see, i'm clutching at straws! ANYWAY, That' something to investigate after (assuming I am able too) I test out the meds route first!