Minister of Fire2.

NULL

Agreed, however how do we generate electricity in this country? They are taking most of the hydro off-line in my part of the country and now import electricity from Canada, which is hydro produced. Don't get me wrong though, the electric car will benifit from seriously fast charging long lasting batteries.

TS

Heating 3,200 sq.ft. and DHW with 100% Wood since 2009Attack DPX45, HeatFlo 115gal SS indirect, Nylethern1 HPWH (summer use), A lot of Storage all insideProfessional HVAC control design and build HE is the Way, the Truth, and the Life

Mooderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

I like the final question, "To charge a 56KW battery in less than a minute would take an awful lot of power and some really thick cables, right?" Ah, yeah.

PE Alderlea T6 - the gentle giant and a Jotul 602, the little stove that could“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.” - Mark Twain -
"A poor worker always blames his tools." - Dad

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

Yes I think we are going to have be satisfied with slower charge times.
Unles of course you are satisfied with line voltage like I have seen some welders use in Mexico.
Not sure how one contols or meters that though!

"The world is a book and those who do not travel, read only a page" - Saint Augustine

Mooderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

It's certainly possible, though not for the current charger infrastructure that is going in on our highways. I think the best they can do is 32 amps. But 10 minutes would be enough for a good partial charge to get one another 50 miles down the road. Both the vehicle and the charging station would need to be set up for higher voltage and amperage charging. These are often 460VAC 3 phase setups not seen in homes. Alternatively in areas that have adopted A Better Place's standard, the battery pack would be swapped out for a freshly charged one. That takes a bit over a minute and the process is similar to a drive-thru car wash.

PE Alderlea T6 - the gentle giant and a Jotul 602, the little stove that could“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.” - Mark Twain -
"A poor worker always blames his tools." - Dad

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

It's certainly possible, though not for the current charger infrastructure that is going in on our highways. I think the best they can do is 32 amps. But 10 minutes would be enough for a good partial charge to get one another 50 miles down the road. Both the vehicle and the charging station would need to be set up for higher voltage and amperage charging. These are often 460VAC 3 phase setups not seen in homes. Alternatively in areas that have adopted A Better Place's standard, the battery pack would be swapped out for a freshly charged one. That takes a bit over a minute and the process is similar to a drive-thru car wash.

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Admittedly the infrastructure for fast charging is not in place everywhere, however, I think it would be relatively simple and quick to install if the demand appeared, certainly more so than a hydrogen infrastructure for example. The beauty with high voltage 3-phase of course being that the wires are small (cheaper) even for higher amps than lower voltage single phase.

The better place system requires that all the cars have the same battery pack, I presume. How much is that being utilized now, other than in Israel?

Home bulit water tube boiler; Wood fired Central Heat!
Home built 30 ton electric splitter; no noise, no gas, no sparkplug, no recoil starter.
25,000 watt Pure Plant oil Co-Generation system under constuction
Wood fired Co-gen in design phase.
Electric Car; As soon as I can generate electricity!

Mooderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

In urban areas it should be fairly straight forward. In interstate rest areas, not so easy, but again one doesn't always need a full charge instantly.

The better place project is moving along. It takes time to set up standards and then have vehicles manufactured to that standard. The battery pack doesn't have to be identical. It just needs to meet the standard for size, attachment, connectors, etc.. That way technology can progress without obsoleting the vehicle. Israel is fully committed, but the project is being adopted in Denmark, Japan, Australia and Hawaii too. It makes good sense to adopt it for fleet vehicles and taxis to start with.

PE Alderlea T6 - the gentle giant and a Jotul 602, the little stove that could“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.” - Mark Twain -
"A poor worker always blames his tools." - Dad

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

I think we're (the proverbial) 20 years away from the common nano-battery. Until then people could simply change their attitudes/habits to get around what it takes to charge their batteries. Right now a battery will give you 100 miles (give or take, heat and defroster and AC running) and that's fine for the vast majority of people. If you're a OTR trucker, you won't be able to make it 14hrs, fake your log book and turn around for the return trip, but a few stops every 4-6 hours will save you A LOT of money vs pouring diesel into your tank while you keep everyone else safe. If you're outside sales you may have to take a 2 hr lunch at the charging station while you make some calls and catch up on email. Gas stations converted to charging stations with wifi would be more than enough for me to waste an hour, or leave an hour early from work and finish up.

Moderate Moderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

I am not sure why mega amp charging stations appear so daunting. A bank of large capacitors located in the brick building next to the station could be at a constant charge and when a car pulls up, dumps. So it takes 7 minutes of line power to charge the caps back up - so what - it takes 10 minutes for the driver in front of you to fuel and get out of the way, now.

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

I am not sure why mega amp charging stations appear so daunting. A bank of large capacitors located in the brick building next to the station could be at a constant charge and when a car pulls up, dumps. So it takes 7 minutes of line power to charge the caps back up - so what - it takes 10 minutes for the driver in front of you to fuel and get out of the way, now.

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And you wouldn't have to fill the tanks every few days. Mega-giantic solar setups and push the sunshine North.

Mooderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

I am not sure why mega amp charging stations appear so daunting. A bank of large capacitors located in the brick building next to the station could be at a constant charge and when a car pulls up, dumps. So it takes 7 minutes of line power to charge the caps back up - so what - it takes 10 minutes for the driver in front of you to fuel and get out of the way, now.

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Look at an average filling station in the city. There can be 4-6 vehicles filling up every 5 minutes in a busy station. That's a lot of amps.

PE Alderlea T6 - the gentle giant and a Jotul 602, the little stove that could“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.” - Mark Twain -
"A poor worker always blames his tools." - Dad

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

Somebody (actually a bunch of people) figured out how to get large quantities of gasoline to station all over and built the infrastructure to do so. I imagine that once the demand is there the infrastructure will come without much trouble. There will be money to be made in it.

Mooderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

Actually it will take a whole lot of infrastructure to make it work. Local power companies are pretty concerned about a mass migration. The grid and generating capacity is pretty close to max in many regions. Distributing the load via overnight charging is preferable right now. It may be slower, but what else is the car going to do while you sleep? And how much do you invest if hydrogen is the next solution?

PE Alderlea T6 - the gentle giant and a Jotul 602, the little stove that could“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.” - Mark Twain -
"A poor worker always blames his tools." - Dad

Mooderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

There's a big jump from the lab to scaled up production. That takes research, testing and time. A big company like Ford or Toyota is going to be very conservative about the battery they supply with the car. It has to last a long time and be very safe. But I do see incremental changes starting to show up in motors and batteries. Nissan is claiming to have improved range by 25% in the 2013 Leaf via motor and battery improvements. That's a respectable increase.

PE Alderlea T6 - the gentle giant and a Jotul 602, the little stove that could“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.” - Mark Twain -
"A poor worker always blames his tools." - Dad

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

It is the heat and A/C that is currently (no pun intended) killing the electric/hybrid concept in my neck of the woods. Much better suited for city stop/go traffic, but A/C again......... The grid is pretty much at max capacity now, as we all know brown-outs are are a sign of overloading with mass air conditioning. The idea sounds good, but there are still many hurdles to overcome, just as there were with the "horseless carrage". Our world is built around oil, and a switch will be difficult to say the least, anyone remember when we tried to go metric in the 70s? LOL

TS

Heating 3,200 sq.ft. and DHW with 100% Wood since 2009Attack DPX45, HeatFlo 115gal SS indirect, Nylethern1 HPWH (summer use), A lot of Storage all insideProfessional HVAC control design and build HE is the Way, the Truth, and the Life

Mooderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

It's ironic that this is an issue in your neck of the woods. I would think that is only a problem for a few weeks. It seems that the bigger problem would be battery capacity in the deep cold of winter.

PE Alderlea T6 - the gentle giant and a Jotul 602, the little stove that could“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.” - Mark Twain -
"A poor worker always blames his tools." - Dad

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

Actually it will take a whole lot of infrastructure to make it work. Local power companies are pretty concerned about a mass migration. The grid and generating capacity is pretty close to max in many regions. Distributing the load via overnight charging is preferable right now. It may be slower, but what else is the car going to do while you sleep? And how much do you invest if hydrogen is the next solution?

Click to expand...

I think overnight charging will always be preferable. The vast majority of cars are parked at home overnight, and charging at night helps the electric companies by balancing their loads better.
Of course, many could be encouraged to continue charging at night with off peak metering.
The need for fast charging will not even be an issue for most drivers anyway, since they drive less per day than even
present day batteries are capable of.

Home bulit water tube boiler; Wood fired Central Heat!
Home built 30 ton electric splitter; no noise, no gas, no sparkplug, no recoil starter.
25,000 watt Pure Plant oil Co-Generation system under constuction
Wood fired Co-gen in design phase.
Electric Car; As soon as I can generate electricity!

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

One train of thought is to allow (for a price ) power companies to tap into unused battery capacity, as per the days your electric car sets in your garage unused, to satisfy peak loads during the day. Not sure if its a good idea cuz it will cost you 1 charge cycle. Wear and tear.

Moderate Moderator2.

NULL

Staff Member

One train of thought is to allow (for a price ) power companies to tap into unused battery capacity, as per the days your electric car sets in your garage unused, to satisfy peak loads during the day. Not sure if its a good idea cuz it will cost you 1 charge cycle. Wear and tear.

Click to expand...

The one problem that I have with this is wanting to jump in and go and not knowing if it is fully charged or not. I don't want somebody draining that sucker when they don't know my schedule.

Minister of Fire2.

NULL

The cars owner, not the electric company would make the decision to make the cars capacity available to the grid. Might work better with old end of life volt/leaf batteries that are not actually in a car.