Fairfax County General :
Fairfax Underground
Welcome to Fairfax Underground, a project site designed to improve communication among residents of Fairfax County, VA. Feel free to post anything Northern Virginia residents would find interesting.

Here is a letter from the Chantilly High School athletic department to members of the school board. It points out many reasons why a change would be negative. It also has the email addresses to all school board members, so send them a line saying you are against the change. A small group has advocated the change, but the majority do not know much about it or its consequences. SAY NO

Shifting our school day back an hour would negatively affect many aspects of our athletic programs. With the start time for after school practices pushed back to approximately 3:45pm, students wouldn’t get home until after 7:00 pm, delaying the family dinner hour and homework time. If after school practices were to begin earlier, the time between the end of the school day and the start of practice would be reduced. This interval is currently used for academic support and transportation to alternate facilities.

The proposed shift in the high school schedule adversely affects athletic programs across the board. The impact is exacerbated by the need for bus transportation to games and offsite practice facilities, which could be delayed as late as 5:30pm. The scenario adversely affects:

· Access to County pool facilities and playing fields, which are available to high school teams only until 6pm to allow for community use
· Travel time, which would increase due to rush hour traffic
· The size of Chantilly’s student athlete population compared to the size of our acreage limits our ability to practice only at our campus, so we rely on use of community and middle school facilities
· Use of practice fields (on and off campus) which are not lit
· Cross country afternoon meets, which would be limited by darkness
· Golf team use of golf courses, currently available at 2:30pm before the end of normal working hours when the general public requires access
· Back-to-back game schedules – for example, frosh/jv/varsity basketball games which currently start at 4:00, 5:45 and 7:30pm respectively could be pushed back significantly
· Similarly, freshman and jv football games are currently scheduled back-to-back on Thursday nights, with the jv team usually not returning to school before 10pm. These games would need to be rescheduled to different nights, reducing field availability for varsity practices and affecting coaching schedules.

Teachers who coach would face additional after-school pressures, attempting to both provide academic support and get to practices and games in the same small window of time. The scheduling of additional game nights would also adversely affect coverage by our Athletic Trainers. (And, although not specifically a high school athletics issue, how would after-school programs at middle schools continue to function?)

Given the large student population at Chantilly, team sizes are generally large so as many students as possible can participate. However, if the school day is shifted later, coaches may have no choice but to shorten practice schedules. The likely result is smaller, easier-to-manage team sizes, reducing opportunities for potential student athletes.

We would also expect to see morning practices scheduled before the start of school, especially during district, regional and state competitions, placing an additional scheduling and transportation burden on athletes’ families.

County-wide, the demand for lit fields would increase as high school teams seek practice space later in the day. This also affects youth and community leagues, who deserve to be able to begin their practices and games on those same fields at a reasonable hour. At Chantilly, we are also concerned with the impact later games on our own fields would have on our residential neighbors, as our fields lights would regularly be left on later into the night.

We understand that other communities which have made similar changes have been studied. Did those studies include Orange County, Florida, which voted in December to reverse their schedule change after less than a year?

We are concerned that the proposal to change school hours has progressed this far without general public knowledge. Most parents have no idea that a decision on the proposed change is imminent. Information on the FCPS website is under the topic heading “Transportation Task Force” – not a true representation, from a parent standpoint, of the content. Is this another instance where the special interest group that proposed the change has been so successful that the Board now finds itself in a position where it’s easier to approve the proposal rather than honestly and fairly considering community opinion?

We respectfully ask that the School Board make no changes to the school hours at the high school level.

Very truly yours,

Terri A. Donovan
President
Chantilly High School Athletic Boosters

Cc: Fairfax County School Board Members
Chantilly High School Athletic Booster Board

Let's keep the main thing the main thing. Academics. If it improves learning, increases attendance and GPA, then the school board should do it. All the rest of the stuff can work around the main thing, academics.

Neen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let's keep the main thing the main thing.
> Academics. If it improves learning, increases
> attendance and GPA, then the school board should
> do it. All the rest of the stuff can work around
> the main thing, academics.

Research supports the need for this change. It is not based on the wishes of a "small group", but on scientific studies that prove the benefits, including benefits to student athletes (improved sports performance). Places that have made the shift show increased or similar participation in sports and after-school activites.

Two separate Task Forces in Fairfax have made the same recommendation--change the start times -- the first, in 1998 asked FCPS to conduct an awareness campaign (still hasn't happened).

"3:45pm, students wouldn’t get home until after 7:00 pm. This implies that practices are currently 3 hours long? Is this even beneficial to student athletes?

The school board has asked for a report about the impacts on sports. Board members are unlikely to move ahead until the sports concerns are resolved. They have asked for resolutions (despite the fact that there is no official report citing the issues listed in this letter from Terri Donovan).

Transportation: If people are depending on transportation staff for information about when late buses will be available, we need to remember that this is the same office that first claimed it would be impossible to change the bus schedule -- too expensive -- $40+ million. There are activities buses now--these would be available at dismissal. Also, the new proposal means more buses are free in the afternoon, so this 5:30 prediction is just wrong. Buses will be available at dismissal for transport to away games.

Many high schools in Fairfax have been moving away from after-school remediation in favor of time during-school to meet with teachers, make up tests, etc. This is a common sense approach to allowing athletes to start practice right after school. Apparently, schools find that more students avail themselves of the help if it is provided during the school day.

One principal suggested adding an 8th period to allow time for activites, clubs and perhaps early dismissal for athletes travelling to away games. Another common sense approach to allow ALL students to benefit from appropriate and reasonable start times.

Other school systems have found a way to manage this change. Fairfax can, too.

Sleep researchers point out that start times before 8:30 or 9:00 in the morning are inconsistent with optimal learning for teens.

Sleep loss = lost learning since we must have adequate sleep to be prepared to take in new information; another night of adequate sleep to process the new information; and, then to be able to retrieve the information...Learning depends on adequate sleep. When we short our students by interrupting their sleep cycles, we short-circuit an important part of the learning process. Buses start picking up students before 6 a.m. in Fairfax--about 2 hours before the sleep hormone typically leaves their bodies.

Last point, Orange County changed their start times to save money -- about $2 million this year. They flipped middle and high schools, so that the middle schools start first and high schools last. Different proposal--no comparison to what is being proposed here (8:30 a.m.) The O.C. dismissal is later than the current Fairfax draft, too.

In Fairfax, parents have been told that this change would be impossible--that it would cost too much--that buses couldn't possibly change the way they deliver students. Interesting that OC has saved so much. Clearly, this also might be the case in Fairfax.

And where is the research and actual analysis that shows how this proposal impacts the Fairfax County community to include the impacted elementary and middle schools, the community youth programs, other community facilities, day cares, etc? The rest of the community needs the opportunity to put together and present their analysis, just as SLEEPy people have done.

"Researchers" will tell you anything. If you have a cause you can find a "researcher" to support it. What really matters is what is happening in real life. What is practical? This proposed change impacts too many lives outside of the sleepy teenagers to go unnoticed and unprotested.

Again what time would middle schools start if the SLEEP initiative is passed? This would be hard on working parents of middle school students. Wouldn't that be disruptive as well since middle schools also have activities after school. Anybody disagree or agree?

Robin Hood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again what time would middle schools start if the
> SLEEP initiative is passed? This would be hard on
> working parents of middle school students.
> Wouldn't that be disruptive as well since middle
> schools also have activities after school.
> Anybody disagree or agree?

It would be disruptive to everyone. Middle school would not start till near 10 in the morning, and not get out till after 4. Then with the late uses of gyms and fields for high school teams, youth sports would not have the resources to continue, as anyone involved with basketball knows gym space is at capacity already. Practices would have to go on past 10pm for youth teams and all this act really does is take family time away, and push everything else back an hour, including the bed time.

Yeah, I think once the general population finds out that a comparatively tiny group is about to turn their lives upside down just so their pampered teens can stay up later....the backlash will be overwhelming.

9:40 isn't 'near 10am'. Do you really need to exaggerate to such a degree? Perhaps you don't feel your case holds merit without putting an extra spin on it?

And maybe this change would mean high school athletics won't be such an overwhelming priority. These kids regularly practice 3 hours a day, some even longer. That's ridiculous for a high school student, this isn't the pros, it's high school. Coaches have taken things to the extreme and parents and students have let them.

Other countries have seen dramatic improvements in both academics and extra curricular activities by switching high school start times to after 8am. What is wrong with that?

As for family time, very few families with kids in these sports spends more than a quick trip to McDonalds or maybe a pizza delivery that eveyone grabs a piece between running off to one place or another. The families I know that actually spend the evenings together aren't in high school sports. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but overall, families today don't interact the way the TV shows of yesteryear would have you believe people behave.

As for the dramatic impact, one impact is the potential for more parental involvement and volunteering since the times for work will be close to times for activities.

Also, there is currently a 'dead time' after school between the end of school and the actual start of activities. This time period would be eliminated, making better use of the day's scheduled time, not worse.

And other school systems release kids early for game times, in fact, TJ currently does this since their day ends late already.

Additionally, there will be more buses available for transportation after school since elementary schools would not be using them, thereby lessening the need for car pools, and congestion and keeping students/athletes together.

Another benefit is the potential for additional coaches that are currently teaching in elementary schools. They would now be available to coach high school sports after the elementary day is over.

Oh and it could allow for better after school programs for SACC, and less need before school since the elementary schools would start not long after SACC's current start time of 7:15am.

There are pluses and minuses to any change and to leaving things the same. I personally am in favor of better performing students and athletes and am glad we're changing the times. It's long overdue.

Amazing how fear trumps truth around here. The misinformation being wildfired around, especially about later start times "guaranteed to KILL sports," is truly flabbergasting. It is based on a visceral fear of change, on pure speculation about concerns that have been raised with no thought given to what ACTUALLY happens when bell schedules change, and on some unfathomable disregard for data, truth, facts, or what humans are capable of achieving. It's stunning, really, the ignorance of science and the raw emotion that prevails, usually at the expense of children.

The people upset about something they imagine happening forget that they have had to make adjustments because of changed schedules all their kids' lives! From weaning babies to putting them in pre-school, to half-day kindergarten, to adding activities in the afternoons, to changing from job A to job B, to switching from elementary to middle and middle to high school and switching in and out of this and that extracurricular activity, to going between fulltim and partime work and vice versa, to moving from a townhouse or condo to a SFH, to allocating an old car to your teen to getting a pet that needs to be walked -- You name it, and you've had to switch entire year's-worth of scheduling!! Most of it with some family discussion and little consequence, and voila!

A one-hour shift in one direction or another of your KIDS' schedules so they can sleep better, do better in school, be rested for sports and work, drive more safely, need less class makeup time, etc. etc. is NOTHING compared to the shifts ALL families have to make for their kids throughout their kids' careers. And why do kids who do HS sports (Max 10K a season out of 170K) trump EVERYONE's health?? The school board is not responsible for getting Johnny to piano lessons!

One more thought: Ever try to stay awake when you're sleepy and driving? Know how horrible it feels? This is how kids feel when they get sleepy in class. It humiliates them, it makes them shoot awake wondering what they missed, it makes their brains feel yucchy. No kid WANTS to be sleepy during the day! No kid WANTS to do less well than they could at anything! But FCPS is forcing them to.

At ZERO cost to the budget, with a little collaboration on ECAs, the board could singlehandedly rectify an abusive practice and raise test scores, lift school participation, and decrease remediation needs, among many other benefits.

The truth, as it has been stated here and elsewhere, is that if you push back the start time for high schools by X hours and/or Y minutes, then high school students will stay up later at night by an equal amount of time, and they will not get more sleep. There is nothing to be gained by the proposed change. Fear that truth...

Suburbanite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> Another benefit is the potential for additional
> coaches that are currently teaching in elementary
> schools. They would now be available to coach high
> school sports after the elementary day is over.

How many older / middle aged women coaches are there out in the untapped elementary teacher market?

NightOwl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TruthBeKnown Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Amazing how fear trumps truth around here.
>
> The truth, as it has been stated here and
> elsewhere, is that if you push back the start time
> for high schools by X hours and/or Y minutes, then
> high school students will stay up later at night
> by an equal amount of time, and they will not get
> more sleep. There is nothing to be gained by the
> proposed change. Fear that truth...

You are absolutely right, NightOwl.

If what these Sleep people say is true, then explain to me why, when we have a 3 hour delayed opening, do I still have to wake up a few kids when we get to school?

Could it be because they stayed up 3 hours later?

Not that anybody gives a shit, but pushing back start times will be a real hardship for some of us bus drivers. A lot of us work another job during the mid day break.

1. 9:40am is very damn close to 10am, who starts that late anywhere? That will sure get them ready for high school, when the new batch of high schoolers comes in and had to adjust going to school 90 minutes earlier than Middle School, rather than the 30 minutes they have to adjust too now. More parents will have issues with this.

2. Other counties have experienced the trouble of later start times, such as Orange County, Florida and switched back. They realized pushing life back an hour causes issues. You cannot have sports games starting at 9pm, which you would essentialy have to unless you want kids to get out of school early and play.

3 basketball games (freshman, jv and varsity) take 5 hours to complete, if kids are getting out of school at 3:30 you cannot start before 5pm. Then where would the youth leagues practice with less after school time and more fields in use by the high school teams?

4. School in hour later will not add parental involvement or volunteering. Schools are fine at getting a few volunteers, what would more be needed for?

5. That "Dead Time" is used to get help from teachers after school, or do home work.

6. How the heck are more busses available? Elementary schools still use them, just at different times. Everyone that lives past walking distance has a spot on the bus if they want it, so lets cut the crap it would cut down on car pooling.

7. If an elementary school teacher wants to coach, they have the option, in a lot of cases for freshman and jv practices, they are later in the day anyway. Plus as one person said, elementary school teachers do not really fit the coaching type (although I do know one good one).

So sure alot of my reasons are sports, and academics does come first. But lets get real, school can start as late as you want, but it will just push everything back that much later. It will add to morning rush hour, put middle schoolers in a God awful posistion, and be a major inconvenience. Just because a cult of crazy parents, can show up in white shirts and bitch, or hire experts to do some bs research, does not mean what they are doing is right. This school system has been extremely succesful for decades now. Why go and change everything now? Just because a few parents of under achieving children want change. Get over it.

Suburbanite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 9:40 isn't 'near 10am'. Do you really need to
> exaggerate to such a degree? Perhaps you don't
> feel your case holds merit without putting an
> extra spin on it?
>
> And maybe this change would mean high school
> athletics won't be such an overwhelming priority.
> These kids regularly practice 3 hours a day, some
> even longer. That's ridiculous for a high school
> student, this isn't the pros, it's high school.
> Coaches have taken things to the extreme and
> parents and students have let them.
>
> Other countries have seen dramatic improvements in
> both academics and extra curricular activities by
> switching high school start times to after 8am.
> What is wrong with that?
>
> As for family time, very few families with kids in
> these sports spends more than a quick trip to
> McDonalds or maybe a pizza delivery that eveyone
> grabs a piece between running off to one place or
> another. The families I know that actually spend
> the evenings together aren't in high school
> sports. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but
> overall, families today don't interact the way the
> TV shows of yesteryear would have you believe
> people behave.
>
> As for the dramatic impact, one impact is the
> potential for more parental involvement and
> volunteering since the times for work will be
> close to times for activities.
>
> Also, there is currently a 'dead time' after
> school between the end of school and the actual
> start of activities. This time period would be
> eliminated, making better use of the day's
> scheduled time, not worse.
>
> And other school systems release kids early for
> game times, in fact, TJ currently does this since
> their day ends late already.
>
> Additionally, there will be more buses available
> for transportation after school since elementary
> schools would not be using them, thereby lessening
> the need for car pools, and congestion and keeping
> students/athletes together.
>
> Another benefit is the potential for additional
> coaches that are currently teaching in elementary
> schools. They would now be available to coach high
> school sports after the elementary day is over.
>
> Oh and it could allow for better after school
> programs for SACC, and less need before school
> since the elementary schools would start not long
> after SACC's current start time of 7:15am.
>
> There are pluses and minuses to any change and to
> leaving things the same. I personally am in favor
> of better performing students and athletes and am
> glad we're changing the times. It's long overdue.

At this point, the best thing in fighting these SLEEPs is to pull in all the 10's of 1000's of others whose lives will be turned upside down. Not just talking about the sports. Most middle school and elementary school parents don't even know that this proposal grossly impacts them. The rally now needs to move beyond all of the sports teams and to the multitude of parents in the county who will be unfairly impacted.

Sports aside, there is a significant population of students in Fairfax who have after school jobs to help support their families. You cannot tell these kids that they now need to split their hours between morning and afternoon. It doesn't work that way. It is also not fair to now ask them to get work permits and leave school early so that a few pampered punks can get an extra hour of sleep.

Other high schoolers are baby sitters to their elementary age siblings or other children. With SLEEP's schedule, these high schoolers don't arrive home or their sitter jobs until after the younger children. This puts economically challenged families at a huge disadvantage.

Has SLEEP studied the additional costs of adding hours and slots to the SACC program? SACC programs will now have to operate for longer hours and in all fairness their afternoon capacities should double with the proposed hour changes for elementary students. It is not fair to think that parents can now get home from work earlier. Many struggle to find care in the p.m. with the existing schedule. It is going to be twice as hard to find something starting an hour earlier. No it is not a simple swap of hours from morning to evening. Many child care situations depend on the availability of students (either high school or college). Who is to say that starting work earlier in the afternoon is doable for these workers?

I am sure SLEEP assumes that all is an even swap from am to pm or vice versa. It is doubtful that they have ever sought input from those outside their circle (except their one conficted Park Authority consultant). The SLEEP people are very micrscopic selfish thinkers and undoubtly have not considered the ramifications their proposal has on working parents and those who are economically stretched.

SLEEP parents, how about if you ask your little pumpkins to take naps during their lunch breaks. Far cheaper and easier on everyone else if your kids just pack nap mats and whip them out for a 20 minute nap break during school.

Napster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sports aside, there is a significant population of
> students in Fairfax who have after school jobs to
> help support their families. You cannot tell these
> kids that they now need to split their hours
> between morning and afternoon. It doesn't work
> that way. It is also not fair to now ask them to
> get work permits and leave school early so that a
> few pampered punks can get an extra hour of sleep.
>

The schools already deal with this. Students can get the last period of the day off to go to work. There is another name for it, but i have heard it called a travel period.

Loudoun high schools are on the later bell. Stone Bridge seems to have no trouble dominating in all sports against FFX County schools. Loudoun youth sports programs are vibrant.

Summer swim teams practice in the early am.

Most sports only have Varsity and JV teams and no freshman team. Thus, only two games have to be played not three. Basketball and football are the exceptions that have Freshman, JV and Varsity teams but they don't have to play all three games on the same night, e.g. Freshman and JV football play on Thursdays. The later bell would not cause a delay of 5:30/7:30 starts for football on Thursdays. Few football teams run practice on the game field, that's why they have practice fields.

For most of the outside sport months (Sept., Oct., March, April, May) the sun sets at 7 or later meaning coaches now have 5+ hours for practice. Some coaches will practice for those entire 5 hours which is not healthy for the kids or the fields.

Youth sports leagues don't use HS gyms on weeknights. They are already booked solid with high school activities.

Elementary kids are more attentive earlier in the morning and making them wait until 9:10 to start their school day wastes the energy their circadian rhythm generates from 6-9 am.

Early bell for elementary kids also equals less need for before school day care.

Currently Little Leaguers barely have time to get a quick snack between getting off the bus at 3:45-4:00 and getting to practice by 4:30. Having an hour to take a deep breath between school and practice really helps these younger kids.

County wide policy requires school and park authority field lights to be off by 10:30-11:00 whether a adult rec team, youth team or high school team is using the field. Babe Ruth teams are leaving the field at Popular Tree and Greenbriar at 10:45 and 11:00 now and these are 7th and 8th graders. Chantilly boosters are raising a red herring on the lights issue.

Just because Stone Bridge is ridiculously stacked, has nothing to do with the bell schedule. I do recall Robinson beating them 41-14 last year, and then this most recent one, them losing in the state semis. I still think it is good to have the freshman, jv and varsity teams, esspecially with the number of kids in our system. Then youth sports do not have high school gyms on week nights, but the high school teams practice at middle school gyms as well. Such as Oakton at Carson, Chantilly at Rocky Run and Franklin. Not all 6 basketball teams can get their 2-3 hour practice at the high school. Then thanks for pointing out another issue, the adult rec leagues.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loudoun high schools are on the later bell. Stone
> Bridge seems to have no trouble dominating in all
> sports against FFX County schools. Loudoun youth
> sports programs are vibrant.
>
> Summer swim teams practice in the early am.
>
> Most sports only have Varsity and JV teams and no
> freshman team. Thus, only two games have to be
> played not three. Basketball and football are the
> exceptions that have Freshman, JV and Varsity
> teams but they don't have to play all three games
> on the same night, e.g. Freshman and JV football
> play on Thursdays. The later bell would not cause
> a delay of 5:30/7:30 starts for football on
> Thursdays. Few football teams run practice on the
> game field, that's why they have practice fields.
>
> For most of the outside sport months (Sept., Oct.,
> March, April, May) the sun sets at 7 or later
> meaning coaches now have 5+ hours for practice.
> Some coaches will practice for those entire 5
> hours which is not healthy for the kids or the
> fields.
>
> Youth sports leagues don't use HS gyms on
> weeknights. They are already booked solid with
> high school activities.
>
> Elementary kids are more attentive earlier in the
> morning and making them wait until 9:10 to start
> their school day wastes the energy their circadian
> rhythm generates from 6-9 am.
>
> Early bell for elementary kids also equals less
> need for before school day care.
>
> Currently Little Leaguers barely have time to get
> a quick snack between getting off the bus at
> 3:45-4:00 and getting to practice by 4:30. Having
> an hour to take a deep breath between school and
> practice really helps these younger kids.
>
> County wide policy requires school and park
> authority field lights to be off by 10:30-11:00
> whether a adult rec team, youth team or high
> school team is using the field. Babe Ruth teams
> are leaving the field at Popular Tree and
> Greenbriar at 10:45 and 11:00 now and these are
> 7th and 8th graders. Chantilly boosters are
> raising a red herring on the lights issue.

Thomas More Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loudoun high schools are on the later bell. Stone
> Bridge seems to have no trouble dominating in all
> sports against FFX County schools. Loudoun youth
> sports programs are vibrant.
>
> Summer swim teams practice in the early am.
>
> Most sports only have Varsity and JV teams and no
> freshman team. Thus, only two games have to be
> played not three. Basketball and football are the
> exceptions that have Freshman, JV and Varsity
> teams but they don't have to play all three games
> on the same night, e.g. Freshman and JV football
> play on Thursdays. The later bell would not cause
> a delay of 5:30/7:30 starts for football on
> Thursdays. Few football teams run practice on the
> game field, that's why they have practice fields.
>
> For most of the outside sport months (Sept., Oct.,
> March, April, May) the sun sets at 7 or later
> meaning coaches now have 5+ hours for practice.
> Some coaches will practice for those entire 5
> hours which is not healthy for the kids or the
> fields.
>
> Youth sports leagues don't use HS gyms on
> weeknights. They are already booked solid with
> high school activities.
>
> Elementary kids are more attentive earlier in the
> morning and making them wait until 9:10 to start
> their school day wastes the energy their circadian
> rhythm generates from 6-9 am.
>
> Early bell for elementary kids also equals less
> need for before school day care.
>
> Currently Little Leaguers barely have time to get
> a quick snack between getting off the bus at
> 3:45-4:00 and getting to practice by 4:30. Having
> an hour to take a deep breath between school and
> practice really helps these younger kids.
>
> County wide policy requires school and park
> authority field lights to be off by 10:30-11:00
> whether a adult rec team, youth team or high
> school team is using the field. Babe Ruth teams
> are leaving the field at Popular Tree and
> Greenbriar at 10:45 and 11:00 now and these are
> 7th and 8th graders. Chantilly boosters are
> raising a red herring on the lights issue.

Since no one is adding buses or schools, or anything else, there is NO increase in morning rush hour, If anything, sending the HS in later lets the people with real jobs leave and get to work before the high school kids ever hit the roads. Your constant ranting about an increase in rush hour traffic is lame. Rush hour starts before the current HS pickup times and doesn't end until after all the schools have started anyway.

Beyond that, studies have shown answers to all your points. In regards to jobs, there is a study that involved Jeb Stuart HS and many of the kids there are from low income households and their jobs may actually be contributing to the family income, but the results show a negligent impact. Do some research before you just start spouting off with your opinions, try basing them on facts and not congecture.

Buses are more available for after school activities because they are no longer driving ES kids around. Can you not do basic math?

Schools are already changing to in-school time for teacher assistance and losing the after school time. West Springfield changed this school year in fact and now has periods during the school day for students to get help with their work. If you bothered to read any of the reports, you'd know that is the way the schools are moving. It's easier to give help during the day than expect kids to actually stay after.

Research both sides and then weigh the results. It's not that difficult these days.

Suburbanite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since no one is adding buses or schools, or
> anything else, there is NO increase in morning
> rush hour, If anything, sending the HS in later
> lets the people with real jobs leave and get to
> work before the high school kids ever hit the
> roads.
>
> Buses are more available for after school
> activities because they are no longer driving ES
> kids around. Can you not do basic math?

Can you not do basic math. The buses would be driving middle schoolers. I'm sorry there already are enough buses for after school activities. The same amount of kids get driven in busses and every time is just pushed back. Middle school would not get out till 4 so give me a damn break about it being a positive for buses. A lot of bus drivers have even said they do want this change, as it negatively affects some that have jobs in between and after school.

And exactly how many middle schools are in the county? And how many Elementary schools? More buses WILL be available, and you know what? It's even mentioned in at least one of the reports on this issue. Basic math, try it. And maybe a little real research.

As for the bus drivers, and it interfering with their other jobs, nothing is going to make everyone happy. So some of them will have to make adjustments, given that numerous studies have shown dramatic academic improvements for the students, I vote for the students and not the few drivers that will be inconvenienced.

Suburbanite Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And exactly how many middle schools are in the
> county? And how many Elementary schools? More
> buses WILL be available, and you know what? It's
> even mentioned in at least one of the reports on
> this issue. Basic math, try it. And maybe a little
> real research.
>
> As for the bus drivers, and it interfering with
> their other jobs, nothing is going to make
> everyone happy. So some of them will have to make
> adjustments, given that numerous studies have
> shown dramatic academic improvements for the
> students, I vote for the students and not the few
> drivers that will be inconvenienced.

There are just as many buses that do middle schools. It's not the capacity on the bus it's who lives over a mile way gets a ride. If one kid gets off at a stop instead of ten, guess what the bus still has to go there; and the bus is still in use. Give me damn break again. An elementary school has like 5-8 buses in use, a middle school uses like 20 as it is a major feeder from the elementary schools. Go to a middle school as the buses are loading, then go to an elementary school, you will see my point. God I hate arrogant people. You're a dumbass, and it's people like you that are producing stupid change in this county.

Notice the time of the post...here is the problem why your poor high schoolers can not get their lazy asses out of bed and get to school. WTF are people thinking..."my kid goes in his/her room at 10 but they are having a rough time adjusting" Take the F-ing computers and cell phones out of the rooms!

My son goes to Rachel carson middle school. The school has fantastic after school programs and clubs . If school goes to four. It will pretty much kill all after school programs . Sereral teachers have told me they can not donate all the time after school if ends at 4:00 the teachers are going to try and get out of their because of traffic. I think things should stay the way they are

When I taught middle school I was amazed at how late the kids would stay up at night. What were they doing? Well it wasn't homework. 99% of the kids had cable TV in their bedrooms and Sex and the City was on at 10 PM for reruns as well as all the other shows they liked on the cable channels. Many told me about watching TV until midnight or later.

About another 80% had a computer in their bedroom. They were always on Myspace or playing games or just surfing the web.

About 99% also had their cell phones and they could text message with the lights out and no one would know. This would go on for hours.

When they got to school, if they had a decent breakfast, they really had no trouble staying awake. I still had lots of kids who were tired because they were up so late. Since the busses picked them up to take them home at 2:10 pm many could take a nap and catch up on their sleep. And yeah some of them slept in classes esp. if a movie was being shown and teacher had the lights dimmed.

As a teacher I knew that my alarm was going to go off at 6 am so I went to bed at 10 pm sometimes earlier sometimes later. My non teacher friends were amazed at how little I knew about TV shows since I never watched them. No time!!!! On weekends, I just slept a few hours later.

I think those sleep later people are crazy. I know some of them just want to sleep later themselves.

If I had an elementary kid in the SaCC program, the new sleep late time changes would mean the kid would be in day care for hours afger school. It's crazy.

agree Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My son goes to Rachel carson middle school. The
> school has fantastic after school programs and
> clubs . If school goes to four. It will pretty
> much kill all after school programs . Sereral
> teachers have told me they can not donate all the
> time after school if ends at 4:00 the teachers are
> going to try and get out of their because of
> traffic. I think things should stay the way they
> are

Some of these teachers have their own kinds in daycare they have to pick up on top of rush hour. Don't think the daycares are going to stay open til 8:00 p.m. to accomodate the changes.

Cable TV in their bedrooms? say it isn't so - but yes, make the little F'ers go to bed - discipline and supervision is all that is needed - when would they have lunch some of the HS students already have to eat at 10:45 - this is all just crazy

I just looked at the link JackieO has provided. This is crazy especially with the proposed middle school bell schedule all because the high schoolers want to sleep just one more hour? Time to bring in the anti-SLEEP group to the meetings! This is a very simple parent responsibilty thing to do...

Be a parent, not a friend and instill strong rules including bedtime rules. Don't let electronics take over!

Studies are proving teens need to sleep later, and not all are staying up with electronics. Mine certainly aren't. They are in bed about 9pm, but awake for at least another hour usually, many times later, with NO radio/ipod/computer/tv/etc. In bed, lights out, house quiet. Still can't fall asleep.

And it affects 'morning people' as well. One kid was always up at dawn, till puberty hit, now it's like waking the dead.

Based on the recommended changes on the link above, I have no beef with it. Our elementary school only moves up 20 minutes and the high school goes an hour later and the middle school nearly 2 hours later.

However, some of the schools look problematic-especially if parents of small kids rely on high schoolers to babysit the kids after school. SACC is expensive and many parents cannot afford it.

I say we have 2 high schools that we use as guinea pigs and if parents want to pupil place there they can.The overindulging parents can drive their kids if they want them to sleep in. All the kids who don't play sports can go there.

LocalParent....Maybe your child is just one of those people that has some type of sleep disorder. I know adults that have similar sleep patterns that you describe you child as having. I think this type of thing is the minority and the majority should not have to suffer.

works for me Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Based on the recommended changes on the link
> above, I have no beef with it. Our elementary
> school only moves up 20 minutes and the high
> school goes an hour later and the middle school
> nearly 2 hours later.
>
> However, some of the schools look
> problematic-especially if parents of small kids
> rely on high schoolers to babysit the kids after
> school. SACC is expensive and many parents cannot
> afford it.
>
> I say we have 2 high schools that we use as guinea
> pigs and if parents want to pupil place there they
> can.The overindulging parents can drive their kids
> if they want them to sleep in. All the kids who
> don't play sports can go there.

Nice idea about having some high schools be like guinea pigs for the new bell schedule if passed. Maybe South Lakes HS can be one of those since it was hell bent on for more kids to the school.

jackie-o Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LocalParent....Maybe your child is just one of
> those people that has some type of sleep disorder.
> I know adults that have similar sleep patterns
> that you describe you child as having. I think
> this type of thing is the minority and the
> majority should not have to suffer.

While that is a possibility, I don't think that is the case for my kid. Try reading some of the links I posted. There are studies involving thousands of teens across the country. It is NOT a problem for a minority of teens, it appears to be a biological change in the human brain during the teen years. Changing the start time has resulted in reduced injuries, reduced traffic accidents, improved grades, improved sports and other activities performance.

Getting out an hour later seems a small price to pay for those benefits.

blah blah blah - plenty of time to sleep when you're dead - funny how kids can get up when they want to go to an amusement park or some other fun activity - but can't seem to get up for school - I did it, my child did it - just don't take 8 am classes in college ...

LocalParent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jackie-o Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > LocalParent....Maybe your child is just one of
> > those people that has some type of sleep
> disorder.
> > I know adults that have similar sleep patterns
> > that you describe you child as having. I think
> > this type of thing is the minority and the
> > majority should not have to suffer.
>
>
> While that is a possibility, I don't think that is
> the case for my kid. Try reading some of the
> links I posted. There are studies involving
> thousands of teens across the country. It is NOT a
> problem for a minority of teens, it appears to be
> a biological change in the human brain during the
> teen years. Changing the start time has resulted
> in reduced injuries, reduced traffic accidents,
> improved grades, improved sports and other
> activities performance.
>
> Getting out an hour later seems a small price to
> pay for those benefits.

So with all this hype of setting another hour later so that the high schoolers can sleep in an hour later, therefore middle schoolers will get to sleep in almost 2 hours later?

Actually elementary kids need even more sleep. My kids don't get up until 8 AM. Asking a kindergartner to get up before 7 is hard.

Early bell also means double the time for after school care. Parents can't get off work early just because sb changes the schedule. This means elementary kids stay at SACC for three hours in the afternoon. And more after school care spaces will be needed.

> Elementary kids are more attentive earlier in the
> morning and making them wait until 9:10 to start
> their school day wastes the energy their circadian
> rhythm generates from 6-9 am.
>
> Early bell for elementary kids also equals less
> need for before school day care.
>

reston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Actually elementary kids need even more sleep. My kids don't get up until 8 AM. Asking a kindergartner to get up before 7 is hard.< <

This comment conflates two different concepts. Elementary kids need 10 hours of sleep and can fall asleep at 9:30.

High school kids need less sleep but can't get to sleep until 1 am. Something within their maturing brain is keeping them up; not outside stimulus, something organic.

> > Early bell also means double the time for after school care. Parents can't get off work early just because sb changes the schedule. This means elementary kids stay at SACC for three hours in the afternoon. And more after school care spaces will be needed.< <

Right, unless the school day is lengthened, which is not part of the proposal, little or no pre-school care in the am with a 7:30 bell means more after school care. More time for outside activities in full sunshine and warmer temperatures and extended homework help sessions. Today the afternoon SAAC is barely an hour long at elementary schools on late bell; hardly enough time to take attendance.

For the people bitching about after school jobs- i found what the program is called. Its called Cooperative Education or somthing and you get the last period of the day off so that you can go to your job. So even if school lets out at 3:20, the people in coop can still leave for their jobs at 2:00

You got off up to 3 periods a day plus lunch period. I left school at 10:45 and only actually worked 3 days a week, and was supposed to be into work at around 2:30 those days... which meant total party time the rest of it.

We actually had a daily gathering of kids who did co-op and would have parties of varying lengths and intensity. More than once I was left too wasted to make it to work..good times.

That sounds like a good program but, what if you actually needed to be in school to get credits? Iknow a few famlies that depend on the older kids to get the younger kids off the bus.

I think this will have a negative impact on the elem. kids. They play sports after school too and some games do not end until 8:30 or 9 and to make a 4th grader get up at 6AM is crazy. These overindulged HS kids/young adults can handle these type of situations much better than younger kids.

Plus lets not forget about how rush hour traffic will triple if all high school kids drive to school at 8 am. I hate how our society needs to cater to kids, and, in the process, fuck over the people who do not have kids.

Here we go again. Scientific illiteracy seems to trump everything. Go to Harvard Sleep Science Center and to the National Sleep Foundation for some peer-reviewed research on the FACT that melatonin in adolescents doesn't kick in until 11 pm or leave them until 8 am. That's the hormone that gets you to sleep. And the research that shows that wherever this was implemented, all these scary stories did not come true. (OC doesn't count -- read the facts on that, too.)

In every single other jurisdiction where high school start later, kids DO sleep at least five hours MORE during the week, and they sleep LESS on the weekends because their bodies aren't desperately trying to catch up after day upon day of sleep deprivation.

As for middle school start times -- how about BEFORE-SCHOOL programs?? Kids who WANT to get up for clubs or need to for occasional remediation can do so without harming the rest of the population. Under the new bell schedule NO BUSES WOULD BE CUT (as opposed to what's planned for the 2010 BUDGET). So you move the MS buses to BEFORE school two days a week. Teachers saved. Bus drivers saved. ECAs saved. Win win.

Daycare -- when my kids were in daycare when I worked full time outside the home I had to pay for before school AND after school care for several years. One year the total was $16K for all three at one of the less-expensive places. How GREAT it would have been to send my little ones off to school early and have only after-school care to deal with -- they could nap, do homework, play. And be awake for school in the early day when they were at their best. (Check the research again!)

We all have our sob stories about how we're "night owls and kids shouldn't be" or "we're early birds and so kids should be too" and we should just take the cell phone/computer/telephone/tv/radio/cassette player/record player/book/harpsichord away from our kid and MAKE him or her sleep, damnit!

Instead of blaming the victim, let's go after the abuser, shall we? FCPS and the way we let our sorry frog selves be heated over the years to boiling on this issue. Time to jump out of the pot.

fuck tilly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you practice for 2.5 hours at a time at chantilly?
> thats strange... i thought there were rules
> against practices of this length.
>
> also, chantilly is awful at sports anyway, so its
> not like it matters, just dont practice it will be
> the same.
>
> 52-14.

You find 2.5 hours odd? You're obviously nor a athlete, all major sports are AT LEAST 2.5 hours of practice. How is your sorry ass basketball team doing this year Oakton? Then how about baseball last spring? Lacrosse? Gymnastics? Cheerleading? Oakton cannot touch Chantilly. Oakton will always now be a doormat to Chantilly and Westfield. That is a fact.

Back to the serious matter, most kids and teachers do not want this change. High Schoolers like getting out at 2, you make it 3:30 it takes away alot more of the day away. These board meetings will be very intersting, I guarentee there will be a lot more opposers at this meeting then those egotistical "we want change, for the sake of change" parents think. No way this change will happen.

WEstfield Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CHANTILLY AND OAKTON can both suck on the 2 nuts
> of westfield, yall cant fucks wit us niggas get at
> us at the W nigga we the motha fuckin evil empire
> bitches

Well I'll give you the same argument I gave Oakton. Chantilly 2-0 against Westfield in football playoffs. Chantilly basketball (first place in districts), Chantilly baseball finished ahead of Westfield, Chantilly lacrosse beat Westfield 3 times and are state champions, Chantilly Cheerleaders have finished ahead of Westfield for years, Chantilly gymnastics are district champions, Chantilly volleyball beat Westfield all 3 times. What it comes down to is Chantilly > Westfield.

My child is a varsity athlete at a FCPS high school where practices last for 1.5 to 2 hours/day after school. And, the team often wins.

Is it really true that some high schools hold practices that last for over 2.5 hours or longer? Does this depend more on the sport, or on the high school?

Steve K Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> You find 2.5 hours odd? You're obviously nor a
> athlete, all major sports are AT LEAST 2.5 hours
> of practice. How is your sorry ass basketball
> team doing this year Oakton? Then how about
> baseball last spring? Lacrosse? Gymnastics?
> Cheerleading? Oakton cannot touch Chantilly.
> Oakton will always now be a doormat to Chantilly
> and Westfield. That is a fact.

It's more the sport than the school. Football is about 3 hours, while sports like track are two hours and basketball is usually around 2 hours as well, but then they spend additional time in the weight room and on film studies.

Sure, pick on the athelets to make your argument to change the start times for every family in the whole county. Athletes are the students with the most discipline, specifically swimmers, who have the highest GPA,BTW. It's a matter of responsibility and discipline, not accomodations.

Steve K Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's more the sport than the school. Football is
> about 3 hours, while sports like track are two
> hours and basketball is usually around 2 hours as
> well, but then they spend additional time in the
> weight room and on film studies.

Yes, that is correct about football practice running to about 3 hours. My brother was in varsity football years ago and often he didn't come home until at dinner time sometimes after. If this new bell initiative is passed, then I wonder what would happen to these high school athletics? Just by moving one hour later for high schools? I still can't fathom that.

Is the SLEEP problem so great that we would risk all of our schedules to "fix" it? We're performing pretty darn well compared to the rest of the country. Most of the comments I've heard around school are anti-SLEEP, because of various reasons - interference with sports, less time to work after school with teachers, the early start times for younger kids, conflict with work schedules, and a general question as to why we need the change.

What SLEEP is promoting is a theory, not a solution. Yes, it's a strong argument, and test scores might rise. But we do not have a huge performance problem - we're Fairfax County. Therefore, we don't need a bundle of new problems to solve a nonexistent one.

The fact is that sports schedules WILL run later and push back the rest of our lives. Morning practices, morning meetings with teachers, morning ANYTHING defeats SLEEP's purpose anyway.

Teachers - and students - do not want to spend their entire afternoon at school for extra help, because (SURPRISE) they have lives, and so do we.

And y'know how Fairfax County is so darned expensive? Some families actually have a hard time supporting themselves here, so the kids DO need to work. Those kids are the ones who need to take a full course schedule to be competitive for scholarships.

Want some useful statistics? Add the number of early-released elementary schoolers, subtract the potential babysitters that will get out later, and multiply by about a thousand dollars to get the increase in money spent on child care.

And what is this supposed to change? Our high test scores? Our strong college acceptance rate? I do not see a problem except the SLEEP initiative itself.

Anyway, I personally would just stay up an hour later and keep sleeping through first block, and I've heard the same from most of my friends.

student. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schools should center around what's best for
> students.

You are so right! All my friends like things just the way the are. I even had to convince my mom NOT to sign the sleep petition. She keeps telling me that it would be easier for her if she didn't have to get up so early. But, I told her I don't mind and I'm the one who has to go to school.

student2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> student. Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Schools should center around what's best for
> > students.
>
>
> You are so right! All my friends like things just
> the way the are. I even had to convince my mom
> NOT to sign the sleep petition. She keeps telling
> me that it would be easier for her if she didn't
> have to get up so early. But, I told her I don't
> mind and I'm the one who has to go to school.

Plenty of signatures on the sleep petition from Langley people who should be at Herndon or South Lakes.

Sleep organizers had TJ students.

Langley people from near herndon high don't even share a bus with Cooper. Would they even get a bus to herndon?

It was good to see the support from the Post on the proposal. The article did a good job of articulating that this is an issue that the community must work together to solve, and that the citizens of the County and our school community should not be distracted by misrepresentations of Park Authority statements by the swim team people.

Maybe we should just get rid of all math and science classes and replace them with swim lessons. Nothing less would please those people it would seem.

WashintonPost Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was good to see the support from the Post on
> the proposal. The article did a good job of
> articulating that this is an issue that the
> community must work together to solve, and that
> the citizens of the County and our school
> community should not be distracted by
> misrepresentations of Park Authority statements by
> the swim team people.
>
> Maybe we should just get rid of all math and
> science classes and replace them with swim
> lessons. Nothing less would please those people
> it would seem.

Sorry, just wait until elementary parents wake up and see what is going on. The SleepIn plan will be Nothing Less once these parents realize the impact.

honestly, i am a student, and one more hour of sleep, won't do anything.
sometimes, on 3 hour delay days im STILL late, cause i sleep in.
and i can still be tired.
and honestly, if we go to school one hour later, and get home one hour later, we will go to bed one hour later, therefore it will fix nothing.

plus, i aint fucking staying in school till 325
FUCK THAT. i got things i do, i have a fucking job.
so fuck staying in school till fucking 325.
peace.

TomMadison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FFXU gets a couple of mentions in the comments
> section on the WaPo article. Maybe this will draw
> some fresh faces into the overall discussion.

oh boy, that could be a lot of fun. I am picturing a ton more Boo Forums!

Gertrude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are the chances of School Board Member at
> Large, Mr. Moon, chances of being Supervisor of
> Braddock District?

I bet pretty good. I was out on Saturday and it seemed like there were groups of 3 or 4 Koreans planting Moon signs along the side of the road. Interesting thing is that I have had at least four robocalls and two real calls and in every one the person was clear white and spoke perfect English.

Name recognition is key in the firehouse primary being run by the Democrats. Does anyone know who the Connolly/Bulova machine is backing? I doubt that it is Moon, but I don't know that it matters.

If this proposal passes, Langley H.S. will start at 8:55 am and McLean H.S. will start at 8:45 am.

The rest of the FCPS high schools will start at 8:30 am (including TJ).

It would appear that Langley parents are pushing for this change so that their students get the most comfortable schedule. Elementary schools starting at 7:50 am and middle schools starting at 9:40 am and ending at 4:50 pm creates huge challenges for these parents.

Please look at the Langley school boundary and see how many high schools these students pass on their way to Langley. This is absurd. These parents behind the SLEEP proposal need to be awakened from their delusion that they run the county.

guster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If this proposal passes, Langley H.S. will start
> at 8:55 am and McLean H.S. will start at 8:45 am.
>
> The rest of the FCPS high schools will start at
> 8:30 am (including TJ).
>
> It would appear that Langley parents are pushing
> for this change so that their students get the
> most comfortable schedule. Elementary schools
> starting at 7:50 am and middle schools starting at
> 9:40 am and ending at 4:50 pm creates huge
> challenges for these parents.
>
> Please look at the Langley school boundary and see
> how many high schools these students pass on their
> way to Langley. This is absurd. These parents
> behind the SLEEP proposal need to be awakened from
> their delusion that they run the county.

The Langley clan is a real headache for many other communities largely due to wealth and power. They certainly need to stop their delusion that they run the school system as the above poster stated. "Off with their heads!" It would not be fair to other comunities if the SLEEP initiative is passed and Langley (and Madison for that matter) gets what they want for a little more later bell time for high school.

New idea (?)...didnt Orange County Florida just go back to the early start times? I think I read that...they tried the later start times but it screwed up everything with sports and jobs etc. Can someone find some data on this?

I really doubt that the "proposed" schedule is what SLEEP suggested. Rather with the history of FCPS school board "dividing" our communities, I imagine that this schedule was published just to get everyone's knickers in such a knot that the community would completely shut down any change thus ruining any chance that SLEEP would ever be able to offer an alternative.

But with a transportation system that uses "post-its" to organize the bus schedules instead of a computerized system, what can you expect......

ps...to the FCPS staff, if I'm wrong about your system, can you give the Washington Post access to your system??????? M. Chandler are you there????

FCPS Transportation is definitely computerized. However, it is pretty much standard procedure in the school transportation industry (nationwide) to NOT post school bus schedules on the internet.

Why make it easier for parental kidnappers or other potential evildoers?

When I first started driving for FCPS, buses did not have 2-way radios and there were no cell phones. So, supervisors had to be creative to communicate with us. My route supervisor used to thumb tack notes to a tree! We used to check "our" tree a couple times a day for last minute info.

Phyllis Payne and Sandy Evans are the 'parent activists' behind the SLEEP initiative. They are McLean parents. McLean PTSA is overjoyed (on its website) about this 'wonderful' proposed schedule change because of course it suits THEIR agenda. Why shouldn't the rest of the county--parents, students, and all citizens affected--change their lives for the comfort of the elite in McLean?

Bus driver, I am puzzled too as to how TJ could still start at 8:30 am if the other high schools have changed their schedules, but that's the information FCPS has on the website.