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Quick thoughts...

Ok, I've stayed up late (even for me) because I had an extra hour due to the time change so I will make this very very short.

Pull all of the negatives you want out of this (sloppy offense, Jamaal with questionable play, lack of p.g. defense, Harrison being Harrison, etc., etc.) and it still adds up to a win for the Pacers.

Look it is in my nature to find fault. In fact what I do for a living (well one of the things I do for a living) is try and find an underlying problem and correct it. So that is why often times I come on here and see a win and go "yea, but".

However this is a new year and a whole new set of rules.

There is something to be said for this, winning is contagous. We are finding ways to win games which, IMO, is a hell of a lot differant than the last few years when we were finding ways to lose games.

Does it matter what the opponets record is? No, it does not. You play who you play. Yes I realize that we have yet to face a great team or even a great player (Arenas aside) but these are the same types of teams that we have had real trouble with over the past few years.

Remember from games 1 & 2 "never surrender" because that held through on game 3 as well.

That's not to say there may not be some trouble. It will be interesting to see how both O'Brien and Harrison react to that little incident.

BTW, for the record LA you were not getting flamed by an entire room. There was one person in the room who had your back. Roaming Gnome immediately stood up when he read what you had to say and yelled at the top of his lungs "Damn straight, J.O. has got to learn to control this crap." He then went on about a 5 min. lecture on why Drew Gooden really isn't that much worse of a player and frankly in retrospect comparing J.O. to John Koncack was an insult to Koncack.

We were all stunned, but hey what could we say it was his house and he has a viscous man eating dog that was ready to tear us up if we even dared to offer a rebuttal.

Anyway, back to the game.

This is a real and honest question that I thought about on the way home.

Have the Pacers in their history ever had two wing players at the same time be dynamic scoreres? I know Mikey Johnson and Ricky Sobers for one season but they were not traditional wing players at all, then did Adrian Dantley ever play with John Williams here? Even if they did it was less than a season.

Honestly, is this the first time that we have had this?

Ok, crap I forgot Artest & Reggie. But I will argue that by the time Ron was here Reggie was way past being a dynamic scorer other than on rare occasions.

Help me out here guys, I am drawing a blank.

We need to pick up the rebounding a little bit, hopeing Troy's return helps with that.

12 players played? Not in a blowout? Unheard of?

Not anymore, this is the New Indiana Pacers.

Look please don't anybody think I'm being a pollyana here. I just have low expectations going into the season and so far they are far and away going above what I expected.

Oh one last thing about the small gathering.

There was one person in the room who believed all night long that the team would win.

Just call me the new Sally Sunshine.

Maybe I better talk about Walsh or something so that way I can make my posts more balanced.

Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

Re: Quick thoughts...

Have the Pacers in their history ever had two wing players at the same time be dynamic scoreres? I know Mikey Johnson and Ricky Sobers for one season but they were not traditional wing players at all, then did Adrian Dantley ever play with John Williams here? Even if they did it was less than a season.

Honestly, is this the first time that we have had this?

Ok, crap I forgot Artest & Reggie. But I will argue that by the time Ron was here Reggie was way past being a dynamic scorer other than on rare occasions.

Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

Re: Quick thoughts...

BTW, for the record LA you were not getting flamed by an entire room. There was one person in the room who had your back. Roaming Gnome immediately stood up when he read what you had to say and yelled at the top of his lungs "Damn straight, J.O. has got to learn to control this crap." He then went on about a 5 min. lecture on why Drew Gooden really isn't that much worse of a player and frankly in retrospect comparing J.O. to John Koncack was an insult to Koncack.

We were all stunned, but hey what could we say it was his house and he has a viscous man eating dog that was ready to tear us up if we even dared to offer a rebuttal.

Oh I'm over it. The best part of the whole scene is that when a collection of our most lucid and thoughtful posters get together, they end up sounding like Dat Dude and Joneal7's love child.

See what I did there? I flipped it. It's about quality posting, not my crackpot ideas. DEFLECT! DEFLECT!

You'll never catch me!

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

Re: Quick thoughts...

OH and by the way. I very much like that the Pacers are beginning to play the right way.

But I want to hold up another standard: I want them to ACT the right way too. Just because other star players act like 3 year olds doesn't mean it's acceptable behavior from OUR star.

Considering the guys we're talking about were here on 11/19, I think I have plenty reason to want them to play with emotion but not let emotion take over. We've all seen what can happen. And no, once you're involved in something like that, you never ever ever get to live it down. Never.

The pacers should play the right way and ACT the right way. Neither JO or Harrison behaved well last night. I suggested that JO as team leader deserved a little responsibility for Harrison's actions but then I recanted and I admitted that each man is responsible for himself.

But in the end JO should at least be held accountable for losing his own cool, right?

With JO the T worked - he immediately cooled it and the refs got their word in: "hey pacers, don't **** us off." So maybe Harrison didn't follow his leader and get the message. But then, has he ever?

EDIT: I reserve the right to flip-flop on this issue all season long.

Last edited by Los Angeles; 11-04-2007 at 11:31 AM.

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

Re: Quick thoughts...

Roaming Gnome immediately stood up when he read what you had to say and yelled at the top of his lungs "Damn straight, J.O. has got to learn to control this crap." He then went on about a 5 min. lecture on why Drew Gooden really isn't that much worse of a player and frankly in retrospect comparing J.O. to John Koncack was an insult to Koncack.

We were all stunned, but hey what could we say it was his house and he has a viscous man eating dog that was ready to tear us up if we even dared to offer a rebuttal.

What?!? Like J.O. in Los Angeles....I was misquoted, but my dog is a man-eater....

I personally didn't see what happened to get J.O. his tech. I figure if it wasn't anything so demonstrative that it attracted the attention of the cameras, it was no big deal.

As for Harrison, since it is a new coaching staff and everyone started with the slate clean, I'd expect them to have a spirited talk with him that may cost him a little $$$, but in the end I expect what ever they do will be done in the coaches' office and not in the public eye. Anymore incidents I'm sure will be handled by means that are evident to the public, like not playing.

Re: Quick thoughts...

So far Danny and Mike have been awesome. Just awesome.

However neither has scored like this for a whole season. So I don't know that I would count on them to do so.

I guess I never have thought of Mike as a big time scorer. A very good all around player though. But I guess I have always seen him being a 15 point scorer and doing all the little things to help. Not this 22 point scorer. Either way I don't see much wrong.

Danny can be a 20 point scorer. However, as with Dunleavy, he hasn't proven it. Off to a good start though.

Jermaine hasn't shot the ball a lot in his 2 games. So I think how much shooting he does will have a big impact on the scoring that Mike/Danny do.

Hard to say if Mike and Danny will keep this up the whole season. If they can, then wow that would be great. If they don't then i'm sure that we all would still be pleased with their production.

Re: Quick thoughts...

However neither has scored like this for a whole season. So I don't know that I would count on them to do so.

I guess I never have thought of Mike as a big time scorer. A very good all around player though. But I guess I have always seen him being a 15 point scorer and doing all the little things to help. Not this 22 point scorer. Either way I don't see much wrong.

Danny can be a 20 point scorer. However, as with Dunleavy, he hasn't proven it. Off to a good start though.

Jermaine hasn't shot the ball a lot in his 2 games. So I think how much shooting he does will have a big impact on the scoring that Mike/Danny do.

Hard to say if Mike and Danny will keep this up the whole season. If they can, then wow that would be great. If they don't then i'm sure that we all would still be pleased with their production.

I think O'Brien has a lot of confidence in Dunleavy. The Pacers run a number of very nice offensive plays to get Mike shots and it seemed especially last night that whenever we really needed two points the pacers ran a play for Mike. He's excellent coming off screens and curling around picks to get open 18 ft jumpers. But I've been extremely impressed how the Pacers execute the plays

Re: Quick thoughts...

It appears we have our own big 3 with JO,Dun and Granger. A little bit younger also. I like our support cast a little better than Bostons.

"He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

Re: Quick thoughts...

It appears we have our own big 3 with JO,Dun and Granger. A little bit younger also. I like our support cast a little better than Bostons.

Hey, I like our team but let's not get away from ourselves here. In terms of wins this season, I'd trade Jermaine for KG, Danny for Peirce, or Dun for Ray Allen. Our guys are younger, sure, but as for this season we lose in each one of those matchups.

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Re: Quick thoughts...

Besides Reggie and Jalen, Reggie and Mully were a good combo for the first year (Mully's later decline helped erase the first year from people's minds) but before that you go back to Reggie and Chuck.

Dude left off Reggie and Chuck, I couldn't believe that. I realize that post Dale draft Peck hasn't thought "straight" about the Pacers, so I can see him overlooking Rose/Reggie/Mullin combos due to Mancrushitis.

Re: Quick thoughts...

I think O'Brien has a lot of confidence in Dunleavy. The Pacers run a number of very nice offensive plays to get Mike shots and it seemed especially last night that whenever we really needed two points the pacers ran a play for Mike. He's excellent coming off screens and curling around picks to get open 18 ft jumpers. But I've been extremely impressed how the Pacers execute the plays

I'm telling you, this isn't new. Go pull a game tape from the final month or so last year. Rick had him back off the deep ball as a spot up and started running him off ball more. What Rick didn't seem to utilize was his handles. But that high curl, that was his big play last year too, thus the steller 2P% he ended the season with (52 IIRC).

12 players played? Not in a blowout? Unheard of?

Really? You are really that skewed against Rick? Rick has NEVER gone short on rotations, yet he has that rep for some reason. In Detroit the rotation shortened under Brown and Flip, and when he hit Indy he tripled Fred Jones' minutes and had guys like Gill in the game too. Harrison, for example, got plenty of rookie season PT till the injury. Rick has had very few guys get over 3000 minutes for him, even 2500 is rare. Some of it's injuries or the brawl or whatever, but the fact is that by choice or need he's always gone deep.

So no, it's not even close to being unheard of. It took 1 second to find the Seattle game last year with 12 guys playing in a 105-103 loss, though Orien and Rawle only got 1 minute each. First game of the year vs Charlotte, 12 guys with Rawle at 3, Baston at 7 as the low minutes players. Score 106-99.

You see where I get the strong sense of bias about Rick and the previous seasons? When something is par for course and a hard core fan is saying "that's unheard of" it strikes me odd. How can those 2 things match up without a bias being involved to skew what someone sees or thinks they saw? I mean Rick was one of the few coaches to comfortably go 10 deep during the playoffs.

Oh and in that opener vs CHA they took 86 FGA so I guess that's uptempo proof and indicated they were on their way to 50 wins.

I'm a jerk about this stuff because it's only been 1 freaking year since this stuff happened and yet it's all forgotten or twisted into something it wasn't. They started 3-1 or 4-2 if you prefer. They'd shot a lot and made a lot of long passes, trying to run as much as possible. There were articles talking about how great chemistry was (and guys stood on the bench to cheer), how uptempo was going to free up Tins and Saras, and how Tins had this outstanding new attitude.

I do like JOB, I do have my hopes, but like the Colts/Pats game today I can't shake the feeling of dreaded familiarity. We have seen some of this before, and recently. Bear in mind they didn't tank till the final 3 months.

Re: Quick thoughts...

Ok, I've stayed up late (even for me) because I had an extra hour due to the time change so I will make this very very short.

Pull all of the negatives you want out of this (sloppy offense, Jamaal with questionable play, lack of p.g. defense, Harrison being Harrison, etc., etc.) and it still adds up to a win for the Pacers.

Look it is in my nature to find fault. In fact what I do for a living (well one of the things I do for a living) is try and find an underlying problem and correct it. So that is why often times I come on here and see a win and go "yea, but".

However this is a new year and a whole new set of rules.

There is something to be said for this, winning is contagous. We are finding ways to win games which, IMO, is a hell of a lot differant than the last few years when we were finding ways to lose games.

Does it matter what the opponets record is? No, it does not. You play who you play. Yes I realize that we have yet to face a great team or even a great player (Arenas aside) but these are the same types of teams that we have had real trouble with over the past few years.

Remember from games 1 & 2 "never surrender" because that held through on game 3 as well.

That's not to say there may not be some trouble. It will be interesting to see how both O'Brien and Harrison react to that little incident.

BTW, for the record LA you were not getting flamed by an entire room. There was one person in the room who had your back. Roaming Gnome immediately stood up when he read what you had to say and yelled at the top of his lungs "Damn straight, J.O. has got to learn to control this crap." He then went on about a 5 min. lecture on why Drew Gooden really isn't that much worse of a player and frankly in retrospect comparing J.O. to John Koncack was an insult to Koncack.

We were all stunned, but hey what could we say it was his house and he has a viscous man eating dog that was ready to tear us up if we even dared to offer a rebuttal.

Anyway, back to the game.

This is a real and honest question that I thought about on the way home.

Have the Pacers in their history ever had two wing players at the same time be dynamic scoreres? I know Mikey Johnson and Ricky Sobers for one season but they were not traditional wing players at all, then did Adrian Dantley ever play with John Williams here? Even if they did it was less than a season.

Honestly, is this the first time that we have had this?

Ok, crap I forgot Artest & Reggie. But I will argue that by the time Ron was here Reggie was way past being a dynamic scorer other than on rare occasions.

Help me out here guys, I am drawing a blank.

We need to pick up the rebounding a little bit, hopeing Troy's return helps with that.

12 players played? Not in a blowout? Unheard of?

Not anymore, this is the New Indiana Pacers.

Look please don't anybody think I'm being a pollyana here. I just have low expectations going into the season and so far they are far and away going above what I expected.

Oh one last thing about the small gathering.

There was one person in the room who believed all night long that the team would win.

Just call me the new Sally Sunshine.

Maybe I better talk about Walsh or something so that way I can make my posts more balanced.

Hey, I said they would win. But you probably didn't hear me over trying to stuff me full of Doritos with Cheese Wiz.