How do you see the second coming of Christ?
I've always seen it as the moment of our death (nde excluded).
A few days ago I found out St. Augustine/Augustine of Hippo (however you want it) claimed so, as well, while addressing to millenarists (millenarism/millenarianism - basically, people who wanted to count how many years is left until the second coming of Christ). Most notable ones (Theophilus) calculated and claimed the Christ was born in the 5550. year of the beginning of the world (6th millenium) meaning they have roughly 450 years before Christ comes again and rules for the next 1000 years (as can be seen in Revelation 20:6). Since Theophilus was writing in around the year of 180. he calculated they have roughly 270 years before the second coming of Christ. There came a question as to why bother living a good life if the Christ is coming in 200 years time since all of us would be dead by then (the question was not raised by Theophilus but people around him) and so Augustine answers what he answers.

A bit of a background history of why Augustine wrote what he wrote...

Or will it be ... The return of Jesus will be preceded by a great and powerful figure of falsehood and temptation, called the Anti-Christ/Dajjal(I've put this, as well, since most Muslims believe so). Before this event other signs that agree with each other include a general increase in immorality and fornication, murder and crime, and general lawlessness, debauchery and falling away from religion and true knowledge. The Christ will descend from the Heavens to rule out the Anti-Christ.

I'd dare to say these are the 2 main ones. Now, depending of the doctrine or opinion (duh), this may differ to a greater or lesser extent.

I am aware that nobody knows the time when the Kingdom of God comes, so there is no need for quoting Matthew. I am just interested in how you see this.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

IceMobster wrote:How do you see the second coming of Christ?
I've always seen it as the moment of our death (nde excluded).
A few days ago I found out St. Augustine/Augustine of Hippo (however you want it) claimed so, as well, while addressing to millenarists (millenarism/millenarianism - basically, people who wanted to count how many years is left until the second coming of Christ). Most notable ones (Theophilus) calculated and claimed the Christ was born in the 5550. year of the beginning of the world (6th millenium) meaning they have roughly 450 years before Christ comes again and rules for the next 1000 years (as can be seen in Revelation 20:6). Since Theophilus was writing in around the year of 180. he calculated they have roughly 270 years before the second coming of Christ. There came a question as to why bother living a good life if the Christ is coming in 200 years time since all of us would be dead by then (the question was not raised by Theophilus but people around him) and so Augustine answers what he answers.

A bit of a background history of why Augustine wrote what he wrote...

Or will it be ... The return of Jesus will be preceded by a great and powerful figure of falsehood and temptation, called the Anti-Christ/Dajjal(I've put this, as well, since most Muslims believe so). Before this event other signs that agree with each other include a general increase in immorality and fornication, murder and crime, and general lawlessness, debauchery and falling away from religion and true knowledge. The Christ will descend from the Heavens to rule out the Anti-Christ.

I'd dare to say these are the 2 main ones. Now, depending of the doctrine or opinion (duh), this may differ to a greater or lesser extent.

I am aware that nobody knows the time when the Kingdom of God comes, so there is no need for quoting Matthew. I am just interested in how you see this.

I don't know enough about what Augustine said to understand where he was coming from biblically but it seems like they were right at the time to know that Christ's return would not be in their time but in the future. Even if people asked "well why should we live a good life then? I believe a person who has been saved will do it by faith in Jesus being led by the Holy Spirit to live a Christian life as best they humanly can.Anybody living at that time should not have thought Jesus was coming soon because Israel had not become a nation yet. Today in our time I believe we are in the last days but I do not believe Jesus is coming soon because I see more prophecies that must be fulfilled first before the tribulation will start and the rapture happen.Everything in the last part of your post I tend to agree with.

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

The kingdom of God has come, it is here BUt not yet here.
As for the second PHYSICAL coming of Christ, by His OWN words, no one knows and it is not for anyone to guess or try to figure out ( ACTS 1).

Remeber this, the news is NOT prophecy nor is it the bible so we don't use the news to interpret scripture ( so the reportings of violence and immorality are not relevant, especially since they have ALWAYS existed and have always been getting worse...).

People should focus more on the gospel and less on the end since, when it does come and by Christ's own words, we won't know until it happens.

But we Are given signs to look for -- and this world is getting worse and worse -- and events Are important -- and , yes, we Do need to focus on the Gospel unto salvation because we see the rise of terrorism / terroristic activity is more and more 'in our face'. It Can't be ignored. And we Do need to know What we believe and Why. We need to be sharing all of this with others. Not forcing belief on anyone, but simply willing To share. People Are dying because of belief in God. In This country. And, no , we Don't know any 'dates' -- but we Do know it Will be sooner rather than later.

crochet1949 wrote:But we Are given signs to look for -- and this world is getting worse and worse -- and events Are important -- and , yes, we Do need to focus on the Gospel unto salvation because we see the rise of terrorism / terroristic activity is more and more 'in our face'. It Can't be ignored. And we Do need to know What we believe and Why. We need to be sharing all of this with others. Not forcing belief on anyone, but simply willing To share. People Are dying because of belief in God. In This country. And, no , we Don't know any 'dates' -- but we Do know it Will be sooner rather than later.

No I'm a pre-trib rapture person but the difference is I believe the anti-christ must be revealed before the rapture happens based on 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-10.I also believe more prophecies must be fulfilled before the rapture and we are not close to it although we are in the last days.We need to see more prophecies fulfilled is all.

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

There's also a Matthew 24 passage -- but I'm curious as to what other prophesies you see that must be fulfilled before the rapture.
Also there Is a difference between the rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ.
The 2nd coming being when Christ comes to earth and stands on the Mt of Olives -- He will reign here on earth for 1,000 yrs.

Such a waste of time trying to figure out the unknowable timeline for the so-called "Last Things" scenario - as EVERY end-times belief will only hold if key and currently UNKNOWABLE variables are known. And thus, as they are NOT known, then EVERY proposed scenario is, at best, an educated guess. So pick one - I'm sure there are some good books on it, but whatever book's author is surely as about as clueless about end-time SPECIFICS as anyone else is. But, hey, they sell a ton of books. That's not to say we shouldn't study the pertinent passages - we should. And, at some point, if we are alive then, events will begin to bring some clarity. But not before. And so debating the various scenarios - well, it's about as fruitful as a good YEC vs. OEC argument. At least Hal Lindsay made his killing while he could (amongst others - like LaHaye, etc.).

Philip wrote:Such a waste of time trying to figure out the unknowable timeline for the so-called "Last Things" scenario - as EVERY end-times belief will only hold if key and currently UNKNOWABLE variables are known. And thus, as they are NOT known, then EVERY proposed scenario is, at best, an educated guess. So pick one - I'm sure there are some good books on it, but whatever book's author is surely as about as clueless about end-time SPECIFICS as anyone else is. But, hey, they sell a ton of books. That's not to say we shouldn't study the pertinent passages - we should. And, at some point, if we are alive then, events will begin to bring some clarity. But not before. And so debating the various scenarios - well, it's about as fruitful as a good YEC vs. OEC argument. At least Hal Lindsay made his killing while he could (amongst others - like LaHaye, etc.).

Such a waste of time not reading the OP:

IceMobster wrote:I am aware that nobody knows the time when the Kingdom of God comes, so there is no need for quoting Matthew. I am just interested in how you see this.

That is, do you see it more specific and realistic (as explained later) or do you see it in a more metaphorical/figurative sense.

crochet1949 wrote:But we Are given signs to look for -- and this world is getting worse and worse -- and events Are important -- and , yes, we Do need to focus on the Gospel unto salvation because we see the rise of terrorism / terroristic activity is more and more 'in our face'. It Can't be ignored. And we Do need to know What we believe and Why. We need to be sharing all of this with others. Not forcing belief on anyone, but simply willing To share. People Are dying because of belief in God. In This country. And, no , we Don't know any 'dates' -- but we Do know it Will be sooner rather than later.

crochet1949 wrote:For Emphasis -- Do you understand that Now? It's NoT random aT alL. You can see the difference between 'raNdOm' and Emphasis !!

Really? Emphasis?
Fine, then.
How is "Can't" more important than "ignored" in the sentence: "It Can't be ignored"?
How is salvation not emphasized upon? Salvation is a really important thing, no?
Why don't you emphasize SHARING the Gospel and Christ with OTHERS?
Why don't you emphasize that people are DYING?
Etc.

You do realize you can emphasize on certain words using italic, bold, underline, list(...) commands?

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me.

680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ's kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.

681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

Trust the past to God’s mercy, the present to God’s love, and the future to God’s providence. -St Augustine

Well -- on this earth, there Is the battle between spiritual forces -- God and Satan. But God is the Most powerful.
The church Is made up of born-again believers in Christ. God is the Father, Jesus Christ His son is the head of the church. He gives mankind instructions for how 'church' is to be ''done'.

There Will be a final war between good and evil. God and satan's armies. Obviously God Wins. He won when Christ rose from the dead.

And when the rapture takes place -- the born-again believer Will be taken up and away from the rest of the world.

Only God knows the intents of our heart. A person can tell other people whatever a person wants to. Our actions do tell a story -- but our Heart is something that only God really knows.

For the believer -- our 'works' as a believer will be judged. That won't get us into or out of heaven. However, refusing to accept God's gift of salvation Will keep us out of heaven. That would be refusing God's grace. Salvation is only attainable while on this earth -- this lifetime -- no standing at the threshold of heaven and saying, okay, I choose to believe Now. It's forever too late.

For all those 'let's not worry/think about it'
Matthew 16: (specifically verse 3, although that whole chapter has an amazing amount of spiritual nuggets in it)
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

We 'all' know Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I could conjure up more scriptures showing we should be living wise, harmless, and in-tune with the Spirit and His workings. He is supposed to be working through us, afterall...

We are admonished to be ready and awake quite frequently throughout the bible (not just new testament; there are statements from Christ, not just His disciples).

The Bible is heavily filled with the first and second coming of Christ. We should know the season we are living in, and He gives us the ability and means to know.