What are you talking about? Several players from other teams have mentioned Spygate and NE not winning anything since. Only fans of NE think their team's SB trophies are not tainted. Reasonable people can disagree but that supposed dynasty can't win the trophy without cheating. Facts are facts.

Facts are facts based on players' opinions?

I don't doubt that the Patriots were up to some fishy business. But I also doubt that it gave them this incredible advantage that led to 3 SB wins in 4 years that wouldn't have happened otherwise. That's talent and hard work.

If cheating gave them the advantage necessary to taint a SB win, then in theory, they should have fallen off in 2006 after being exposed. They won 16 games the following year. Some advantage.

So moss and welker were not better than any WRs that the pats had during their SB years? Wilfork isnt at least as good as Ted Washington? You implied that the pats have had less talent now than during their SB years... On its face that is foolish.

The 2004 Patriots were probably the greatest Patriots team of all time and the 2003 team is a close second.

Since 2005, the team has been worse than those two entries. Some folks believe the reason for that is that the Patriots are no longer videotaping opposing sidelines. I believe the reason is that the composition of the team has changed for the worse on a net basis and been hurt by the loss of particular players, including those I mentioned.

2007 Randy Moss is the greatest WR in Patriots history. But the 2007 team as a whole was definitely worse overall than the 2004 team, as the end of their respective seasons confirms. On the other hand, I'll take the 2003-04 Deion Branch over Wes Welker any day of the week. The former had JAG regular season stats, but saved his biggest performances for the biggest games. The latter is a stat machine, but comes up small when the chips are down.

The 2004 Patriots were probably the greatest Patriots team of all time and the 2003 team is a close second.

Since 2005, the team has been worse than those two entries. Some folks believe the reason for that is that the Patriots are no longer videotaping opposing sidelines. I believe the reason is that the composition of the team has changed for the worse on a net basis and been hurt by the loss of particular players, including those I mentioned.

2007 Randy Moss is the greatest WR in Patriots history. But the 2007 team as a whole was definitely worse overall than the 2004 team, as the end of their respective seasons confirms. On the other hand, I'll take the 2003-04 Deion Branch over Wes Welker any day of the week. The former had JAG regular season stats, but saved his biggest performances for the biggest games. The latter is a stat machine, but comes up small when the chips are down.

So did videotaping opposing sidelines give the team an advantage or a disadvantage.

I missed the part where Belichick destroyed his reputation and ruined his life. I don't think he would agree with that. Plus, FOX aired one of the tapes. It was predictably uninteresting: Sidelines, scoreboard, play. Repeat ad infinitum (plus, according to Jay Glazer who still has the tapes, gratuitous cheerleader shots).

I didn't say that it destroyed his legacy, just that it certainly had the potential to. We all know how legacies can be tarnished in the blink of an eye. Just look at Lance Armstrong. Or Pete Rose. Or look at the laundry list of MLB players, many of whom have never tested positive, are on the outside looking in at the hall of fame. I repeat: They never tested positive. They just looked too good so something had to be going on. No, spygate didn't ruin his legacy, but it certainly had the potential to based on other scandals in sports history. Men have had their legacies ruined for far less.

Not to mention that every year he doesn't win continues to hurt his legacy. He hasn't won with arguably the best quarterback in NFL history, in his prime, for 8 years now, (6 since spygate). 8 years. You can debate how much spygate helped the team or not; but the bottom line is that it's been 8 years since their last win. It is not ridiculous to say that Tom Brady's best days are probably behind him. I'm not saying Tom Brady or the Patriots can't still be very good for several more years, or even that they won't turn around and win it all next year, but Bill Belichick may very well have won his last Super Bowl in 2004. A lot of people think that Spygate is in the past and is done. But the longer he goes without a Super Bowl win, the greater the spotlight begins to shine again on Spygate when it comes around to talking about the greatest coaches. It may not have tarnished his reputation Barry Bonds-style, but it may very well have knocked him out of the conversation of the best coaches in history; especially if they can't win again.

Not to mention that every year he doesn't win continues to hurt his legacy. He hasn't won with arguably the best quarterback in NFL history, in his prime, for 8 years now, (6 since spygate). 8 years. You can debate how much spygate helped the team or not; but the bottom line is that it's been 8 years since their last win. It is not ridiculous to say that Tom Brady's best days are probably behind him. I'm not saying Tom Brady or the Patriots can't still be very good for several more years, or even that they won't turn around and win it all next year, but Bill Belichick may very well have won his last Super Bowl in 2004. A lot of people think that Spygate is in the past and is done. But the longer he goes without a Super Bowl win, the greater the spotlight begins to shine again on Spygate when it comes around to talking about the greatest coaches. It may not have tarnished his reputation Barry Bonds-style, but it may very well have knocked him out of the conversation of the best coaches in history; especially if they can't win again.

Its called "The curse of the Mangino" because it was Eric Mangini that dropped a dime on Belicheat. This is the legend of the beginning of this curse. It may last as long as the curse of "The Bambino". Same cities involved. The Curse states that the Patriots will never win another Super Bowl until the Jets win one first. Actually I hope it doesn't last long because that would mean the Jets will have won one but this curse is currently in effect!

Originally Posted by RussianGreen

The curse will last until Bucky Dent is elected a mayor of Boston

So does that curse include the Pats winning 10+ games a year finishing first in the AFC east and preventing the Jets from getting any sort of home field advantage in the playoffs?

We "trolls" will never sway the opinions of the mouth breathers let alone convince you of anything so what's the point of introducing logic?

It's hard for ANY team to even get to a Superbowl let alone win one. The Jets haven't even been to a SB since Watergate. Jets fans mocking Pats fans is like a homeless guy laughing at Donald Trump for stumbling while getting out of his limo.

We "trolls" will never sway the opinions of the mouth breathers let alone convince you of anything so what's the point of introducing logic?

It's hard for ANY team to even get to a Superbowl let alone win one. The Jets haven't even been to a SB since Watergate. Jets fans mocking Pats fans is like a homeless guy laughing at Donald Trump for stumbling while getting out of his limo.

The Watergate comment isn't even original...saw that already on the newest QB Mock Facebook post yesterday. Even the Pats fans have to cheat & steal material....sad.

So...in addition to stealing defensive play calls...Brades had a helmet channel that stayed on until the snap...with coaches giving him the low down ..and here I was thinking he was a genius at pre-snap reads!

We "trolls" will never sway the opinions of the mouth breathers let alone convince you of anything so what's the point of introducing logic?

It's hard for ANY team to even get to a Superbowl let alone win one. The Jets haven't even been to a SB since Watergate. Jets fans mocking Pats fans is like a homeless guy laughing at Donald Trump for stumbling while getting out of his limo.

Not a fan of the Watergate analogy but if you want to use it, it's more like Republicans laughing at Democrats for losing the election the day after Nixon resigned.

If everyone was doing it why did they take Lance Armstrong’s 7 Tour victories away from him? All those guys who came in second and third were also doing it according to Lance. I'm guessing very few people are going to consider him the greatest rider in tour history anymore?

The Pats fans I know are a little more like Mark Madoff today than they are like Donald Trump. forgive me for the poor taste but being homeless can leave a bad taste.