No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

vudukungfu:No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

Occam's Nailfile:vudukungfu: No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

debug:The raging flames also loomed over towering sequoias that are among the largest and oldest living things on the planet. The iconic trees can withstand fire...

What's the problem again?

Decades of putting out forest fires ASAP has led to many areas having a greater than normal density of undergrowth. In such conditions, a fire can become intense enough to burn out even larger sequoias. In more natural conditions, the forest fires are usually not intense enough to kill the giant trees.

It does not have to 'burn down'. Many of the big tree forest (Doug Fir, Yellow Pine, Redwood) are pretty fire resistent so long as the fire is small and contained to the forest floor. However, when you let fuels build up over the years without allowing perodic firest, prescribed burns, selective logging, etc. you end up with fires that are much hotter and will find ther way into the canopy, effectivly killing everything in its path. Some can even burn so hot as to sterilize the forest floor, making regeneration much more difficult.

vudukungfu:No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.Let the black man run Detroit.You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the black man run Detroit. He is so much better at it.

The big sequoias can live through pretty bad fires. Part of their natural cycle is for fires to burn through and kill all the small stuff. Of course, we are talking about one of the worst droughts in recorded history, so it might not be fair to blame it all on the Forestry Service.

Low Budget Dave:The big sequoias can live through pretty bad fires. Part of their natural cycle is for fires to burn through and kill all the small stuff. Of course, we are talking about one of the worst droughts in recorded history, so it might not be fair to blame it all on the Forestry Service.

Occam's Nailfile:vudukungfu: No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.Let the black man run Detroit.You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the black man run Detroit. He is so much better at it.

HeadLever:abfalter: It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.

It does not have to 'burn down'. Many of the big tree forest (Doug Fir, Yellow Pine, Redwood) are pretty fire resistent so long as the fire is small and contained to the forest floor. However, when you let fuels build up over the years without allowing perodic firest, prescribed burns, selective logging, etc. you end up with fires that are much hotter and will find ther way into the canopy, effectivly killing everything in its path. Some can even burn so hot as to sterilize the forest floor, making regeneration much more difficult.

Some of those trees even require a fire to open their cones and reseed themselves. I thought the Park Service learned this about 20 years ago with the big Yellowstone fires. Fire's been around longer than man, or land management.

HeadLever:abfalter: It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.

It does not have to 'burn down'. Many of the big tree forest (Doug Fir, Yellow Pine, Redwood) are pretty fire resistent so long as the fire is small and contained to the forest floor. However, when you let fuels build up over the years without allowing perodic firest, prescribed burns, selective logging, etc. you end up with fires that are much hotter and will find ther way into the canopy, effectivly killing everything in its path. Some can even burn so hot as to sterilize the forest floor, making regeneration much more difficult.

LEt me guess, wealthy people have built holiday homes in the forests and have activly lobbied for the laws that built up the brushwood?

Occam's Nailfile:vudukungfu: No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.Let the black man run Detroit.You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the black man run Detroit. He is so much better at it.

Now do you see how racist you sound?

Racism against people of color: wage disparities, income disparities, sentencing and profile disparities, tangible negative effects.

"Racism" against white people: Occam's Nailfile's feelings are hurt. Someone please get him a tissue.

Apik0r0s:That sound you hear is a million Republicans fapping to the idea of the Sequoias burning, shows them darned liberals for not letting them make picnic tables out of them in the first place.

Yeah, because you hear all the republicans in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Arizona excited about wildfire in thier state.

Forest Management is not really a hard issue to solve from a technical stanpoint, however, it is a nighmare from the political perspective. You either need to reduce the fuels on human terms or let the wildfires run their course.

If you pick the first option, you have only 2 effective ways of doing this - prescribed burns or some type of logging. Neither one is really attractive to the environmental/nimby community. Aslo some fuel loads are high enough that prescribed burns are very risky.

If you pick the second option, you are going to see continued loss property and firefighters lives.

FunkOut:Occam's Nailfile: vudukungfu: No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

OK, wait, let me try this...

No no no no.Let the black man run Detroit.You take those cracker corporatists and run them out of town on a rail. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the black man run Detroit. He is so much better at it.

Norfolking Chance:LEt me guess, wealthy people have built holiday homes in the forests and have activly lobbied for the laws that built up the brushwood?

That is one aspect. Another is that the public wants to see green forest, not black forest. Add to the fact that many environmental organizations consider logging to be the debil's work and you end up with a logjam in forest management .

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer:Occam's Nailfile: abfalter: I know that we want to preserve the park but our mandate should be to preserve nature from man and not preserve nature from itself.

It is natural for a forest to periodically burn down.

Unless a spotted owl lives nearby. In which case, make a human shield around the flames.

Ummmm.....owls can fly.

That, and another owl is out competing them anyways.

HeadLever:Apik0r0s: That sound you hear is a million Republicans fapping to the idea of the Sequoias burning, shows them darned liberals for not letting them make picnic tables out of them in the first place.

Yeah, because you hear all the republicans in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Arizona excited about wildfire in thier state.

Forest Management is not really a hard issue to solve from a technical stanpoint, however, it is a nighmare from the political perspective. You either need to reduce the fuels on human terms or let the wildfires run their course.

If you pick the first option, you have only 2 effective ways of doing this - prescribed burns or some type of logging. Neither one is really attractive to the environmental/nimby community. Aslo some fuel loads are high enough that prescribed burns are very risky.

If you pick the second option, you are going to see continued loss property and firefighters lives.

A third option is go in, clear some of the fuel load and sell it to some of these cogen electrical generation facilities that burn wood waste, then let smaller fires burn after that.

There are far too many nimbys that claim to be environmentalists just because it gives them a more legitimate leg to stand on besides "I don't want it to ruin my view".

Occam's Nailfile:vudukungfu: No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass? I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade. They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land. Crazy stuff.

vudukungfu:No no no no.Let the white man steward the land.he knows so much better how to do this than the people that have survived on this land for thousands of years.You take those slackers and park them on some hell hole of a nuclear testing ground and farking let them rot. They don't know what the fark they are doing. Let the white man steward the land. He is so much better at it.

patrick767:debug: The raging flames also loomed over towering sequoias that are among the largest and oldest living things on the planet. The iconic trees can withstand fire...

What's the problem again?

Decades of putting out forest fires ASAP has led to many areas having a greater than normal density of undergrowth. In such conditions, a fire can become intense enough to burn out even larger sequoias. In more natural conditions, the forest fires are usually not intense enough to kill the giant trees.

Yeah, in a healthy forest, a wildfire (with no firefighters) will only take 1/3 of the trees. Plus, the heat germinates the pinecones for the next generation. Live pines don't burn in a fire -- they die when there's enough fuel that it boils them, then they die, then burn. The thing to do is just let them burn.

Bristlecone pines actually produce a resin in their needles that's highly flammable, so they can put fuel on the lesser trees beneath them for the next fire that comes through. The same trees have been burning the hell out of their competition for 1000s of years.

meat0918:A third option is go in, clear some of the fuel load and sell it to some of these cogen electrical generation facilities that burn wood waste, then let smaller fires burn after that.

I would consider that a part of the logging selection. Selective cutting to reduce fuel loads is a great way to help. Around here, many folks use these small dead trees for firewood. You can buy permits from the Forest Service for $5 a cord, up to 10 cord (if you get a commercial permit you can get much more than that). You are really limited on where you can go (you can thank the environmentalist for that as well), but it does provide one way for fuel reduction in certain areas.

LeroyBourne:I wonder if it's hot enough to turn that dirt to glass? I saw on pbs a long time ago they let like 2 sq/mile forest just grow with out any controlled burns for a decade. They started that bad boy up to see what would happen, it was so dense with heat it made a 3 inch thick plain of glass over the land. Crazy stuff.

You have to schedule proscribed burns in California. There are hearings to pick dates, places and times, all of which can be challenged. Then, if you do get a go-ahead, if the AQMD (Air quality management district) decrees the air is too dirty, the burn can't happen. And it can't happen the next day without going through the whole process again.

Wildfires, or course, don't care about the AQMD. That "No! Not today!" attitude is pointless when a fire starts.