Adam, can u please point out what's "insulting" in my posts? Just debate cobbler, no insults thrown. And as u love to debate I'm surprised to find you so sensitive. Anyway, enough on the Slits - let's debate Huey Smith whose contribution to the modern world is, to my mind, infinitely greater. Or is it insulting to suggest such? You tell me, Adam.

"Incompetent", "tuneless", "pretentious primitivism" are all insults in my book. It's absolutely fine to not like some music but can't you put it down to personal taste without feeling the need to rubbish the music in question? That's all I'm saying. As for Huey "Piano" Smith, well of course you're not going to get any arguments from me there, I love his music and have collected a good fistful of original Ace 45s to play loud at any opportunity!

A cruel haircut is one that has been performed by oneself or a like-minded friend. Its aim is to render one as unattractive as possible to the patriarchal-ist heterosexual male. The effect is not dissimilar to a distressed loo brush. The hair itself has already been dyed the colour of a fruit pastille - perhaps lime green or purple blackcurrant.

Adam Blake wrote:A cruel haircut is one that has been performed by oneself or a like-minded friend. Its aim is to render one as unattractive as possible to the patriarchal-ist heterosexual male. The effect is not dissimilar to a distressed loo brush. The hair itself has already been dyed the colour of a fruit pastille - perhaps lime green or purple blackcurrant.

I think you may teach some of these ladies children, Andy.

An admirably full description.

I do indeed teach their children. In a rather ironic twist, these daughters' version of anti-parent rebellion is often to dismiss feminism, because it is boring old dated stuff they associate with their mums! Feminism as the preserve of old farts -- who'd have thought it ?

Ah, but is the problem not possibly a bit deeper than that? Could it be that the kids are rebelling against what they know instinctively was just a pose on their mothers part? Most of these girls weren't really feminists, or lesbians, they just thought it was cool to pretend to be. Why were they hanging around with a bunch of degenerate male musicians anyway? That ol' biological imperative has its wicked way with all of us sooner or later. (Cue: Frankie Howerd frown)

The stage is set for Viv to get quite famous. She's perfect for the modern media landscape. Well mannered, polite, good looking with a "wild past" - which she celebrates with a slightly embarrassed and dismissive air. Forgive me if I mourn instead the dead one who could never have fitted comfortably in any media situation. The first minute of this clip is priceless:

Sorry for dropping out of debate - been in Louisiana. A state I recommend everyone here visit if they ever get the chance: phenomenal amounts of great music available at very reasonable prices - or simply being played on the street. And delicious seafood to boot!

Anyway, Adam, as I read it describing the Slits as tuneless, incompetent etc is not insulting - they're criticisms of their musical competence. And as we are all critics then you just have to accept that even artists you were briefly buddies with can be criticised. Insults are when you start picking on someone for, um, their haircut or physique or politics or whatever and being nasty about them. Patti Smith used to attract a lot of insults for not being conventionally "attractive" but only a fool would insult her ability to make dynamic rock music in the mid-to-late 70s. The difference between her, Debbi, Chrissie and the Slits is that they managed to focus their vision and deliver it so the shit resonated. The Slits and The Fall and Public Image etc are what i call "attitude bands" - they believed their sneering attitude was in itself worthy of attention and acclaim. That's probably the worst thing to come out of punk. In Louisiana musicians appear to have a very relaxed, unpretentious attitude. And they play like monsters! It's all too beautiful, the late Mr Lane might have said.

The Slits and The Fall and Public Image etc are what i call "attitude bands" - they believed their sneering attitude was in itself worthy of attention and acclaim.

Well to a point, though I think this is an example of the Garth broad brush approach. Lydon got most of the sneering out of his system in the Pistols. PIL was a brave attempt to do something different. People listened to them for what they were doing musically, rather than to see 'Johnny Rotten' parading his attitude. Mark E.Smith was perhaps more guilty of such a charge. HMHB's 'Look Dad No Tunes' pretty much sums them up.

As for the Slits, I only really listened to them seriously after seeing this thread. I saw them live a couple of times supporting the Clash and just had them down as an interesting curiosity (of which there were many in those days, mostly of the flash in the pan variety.) But it looks like I really missed out. I'm loving the 'Cut' album - clearly they needed a top producer to sort out their messiness, but I love the sense you get of girls having fun in a way that (unlike Patti) owes nothing much to any rock tradition, not in any 'sneering' sort of way, but good humoured and real as opposed to so much punk posing. More than anything it reminded me of the space that opened up for that brief time for anyone to take a risk and have a go. I'm glad these women took it.