As I mentioned before we were pleasantly surprised the gate was open at all.Did not expect that. It costs money to keep the road open. Was prepared tohike up Old GP Road to start our trek. Saved us a brisk hike up that old road.

Always giggle when peeps think north and south rims are flat.We were out 4 days. 27 miles (8, 5, 10, 4) ... 5400 elevation.

I'm not familiar with this gate location, is this below Badger Pass and close to the Wawona Road.? I was hoping to hike Badger Pass to Dewey Point in the next day or two.

Yes, that gate is at the start of Glacier Point Road just past the initial turn uphill from Wawona Road.

Ironic, that they decided to close the road due to NO SNOW. Yes, it's perfectly understandable that DNC had to shutdown their Nordic skiing operations due to the lack of snow, but to shutdown the road too for those of us who might want to do day hikes from the trailheads along the road wasn't nice. It's a sad commentary that the road stays open to Badger Pass only for convenience of the park's concessionaire, DNC, and not for the convenience of the general park visitor (who might NOT need nor want to partake of the concessionaire's commercial offerings).

If one doesn't mind doing a hearty hike uphill, Dewey Point is still accessible via the Pohono Trail starting from its Tunnel View trailhead off of Wawona Road. (Dewey Point is about 3,150' up in elevation gain from Tunnel View via the Pohono Trail.)

QuoteplawrenceYes, that gate is at the start of Glacier Point Road just past the initial turn uphill from Wawona Road.

Ironic, that they decided to close the road due to NO SNOW. Yes, it's perfectly understandable that DNC had to shutdown their Nordic skiing operations due to the lack of snow, but to shutdown the road too for those of us who might want to do day hikes from the trailheads along the road wasn't nice. It's a sad commentary that the road stays open to Badger Pass only for convenience of the park's concessionaire, DNC, and not for the convenience of the general park visitor (who might NOT need nor want to partake of the concessionaire's commercial offerings)....

I find it interesting that all the assumptions you make about what's going on in the Park ALWAYS puts the Park or it's workers in the worst light possible. Did the though even occur to you that there might be something else going on? Or do you automatically assume the worst about people you know nothing about?

I find it interesting that all the assumptions you make about what's going on in the Park ALWAYS puts the Park or its workers in the worst light possible. Did the though even occur to you that there might be something else going on? Or do you automatically assume the worst about people you know nothing about?

So Dave, as the National Park Service #1 apologist on this board, please enlighten all of us of the actual noble reason why the National Park Service decided to close Glacier Point Road to park visitors? If there's more to the story, I'm all ears.

(And I don't always put the Park Service (or its employees) in the worst possible light. I actually admire the work of a whole lot of them, and overall, the National Park Service as a whole too. But that won't stop me from stating negative opinions about the National Park Service when the Park Service behaves in a manner that I find contrary to one of its primary missions: to keep the park accessible to park visitors (when practical). Of course, feel free to jump to the defense of the Park Service (that as it appears to my eyes, you feel cannot do no wrong) any time you like. If we all agreed on everything, this would be a very boring message board.)

So Dave, as the National Park Service #1 apologist on this board......

If you want me to respond, don't start with insults.

Sorry that you feel that being thought of as the National Park Service's #1 defender on this board is an insult. I would have thought you would have taken it as a badge of honor.

It's funny that you feel it's perfectly fine to be nasty towards me on this forum, but then take offense when I just pointed out the obvious (you're the person on this board most likely to defend all of NPS's actions). I didn't mean it as an insult per se. I was just noting your historic bias in these matters and then asking what the actual reason for the closing was, because it appears (by your account) that I was completely off base with my observation in regards to the road closure.

I find it somewhat surprising that the road would be closed due to LACK of snow!

This continues my ongoing criticism of the Park Service for lack of communication on this, and other issues. There must be more to it, such as sequester financing requiring cuts in SOMETHING, and they decided to layoff the people that would have to be up this road if it were open, rather than have cuts in services in the Valley later in the fiscal year.

But with no explanation, who knows?

The fact is, most of us would like to support good decision-making.....but they sure make it hard, sometimes.

QuoteKen MI find it somewhat surprising that the road would be closed due to LACK of snow!

This continues my ongoing criticism of the Park Service for lack of communication on this, and other issues. There must be more to it, such as sequester financing requiring cuts in SOMETHING, and they decided to layoff the people that would have to be up this road if it were open, rather than have cuts in services in the Valley later in the fiscal year.

It's perfectly fine to criticize the Park Service, but at least base it on something they've actually done, or not done. In this case the communications might be lacking, or just hasn't gotten to the people that question the action.

QuoteBut with no explanation, who knows?

It's not hard to figure out. Many of the law enforcement rangers in the Park are seasonal. Knowing that fact leads one righ to the answer, or at least what I assume is the answer; lack of LE to partrol the road.

QuoteThe fact is, most of us would like to support good decision-making.....but they sure make it hard, sometimes.

Like I said, the explanation might be out there but just hasn't been propagated to those asking questions. One thing that is certain though, the decision had nothing to do with DNC.

QuoteDave
t's perfectly fine to criticize the Park Service, but at least base it on something they've actually done, or not done. In this case the communications might be lacking, or just hasn't gotten to the people that question the action.

It's not hard to figure out. Many of the law enforcement rangers in the Park are seasonal. Knowing that fact leads one righ to the answer, or at least what I assume is the answer; lack of LE to partrol the road.

Like I said, the explanation might be out there but just hasn't been propagated to those asking questions. One thing that is certain though, the decision had nothing to do with DNC.

Thanks for your reasoning. I see your point of view, though I must respectfully disagree with your last sentence. The decision to close DNC's Nordic operations I feel had a lot to do with the decision to close down Glacier Point Road to Badger Pass. Regardless of LE Rangers staffing requirements during Yosemite's winter operations, if they (the Park Service and DNC) had decided to keep DNC Nordic skiing operations open at Badger Pass, then the road, by necessity, would have been kept open.

It's only because NPS and DNC decided to shutdown DNC's Nordic activities at Badger Pass did it become an option to close Glacier Point Road completely. Were there other factors involved? Quite possibly, but the stopping of DNC's Nordic activities at Badger Pass had to play an essential role in the decision making process to close down the road.

QuoteDave
t's perfectly fine to criticize the Park Service, but at least base it on something they've actually done, or not done. In this case the communications might be lacking, or just hasn't gotten to the people that question the action.

It's not hard to figure out. Many of the law enforcement rangers in the Park are seasonal. Knowing that fact leads one righ to the answer, or at least what I assume is the answer; lack of LE to partrol the road.

Like I said, the explanation might be out there but just hasn't been propagated to those asking questions. One thing that is certain though, the decision had nothing to do with DNC.

Thanks for your reasoning. I see your point of view, though I must respectfully disagree with your last sentence. The decision to close DNC's Nordic operations I feel had a lot to do with the decision to close down Glacier Point Road to Badger Pass. Regardless of LE Rangers staffing requirements during Yosemite's winter operations, if they (the Park Service and DNC) had decided to keep DNC Nordic skiing operations open at Badger Pass, then the road, by necessity, would have been kept open.

It's only because NPS and DNC decided to shutdown DNC's Nordic activities at Badger Pass did it become an option to close Glacier Point Road completely. Were there other factors involved? Quite possibly, but the stopping of DNC's Nordic activities at Badger Pass had to play an essential role in the decision making process to close down the road.

.

I may be missing something here but I think the reason the Nordic skiing was shut down is because there is no more snow on the road. There certainly is none at Badger Pass.

I may be missing something here but I think the reason the Nordic skiing was shut down is because there is no more snow on the road. There certainly is none at Badger Pass.

I presume it was shutdown due to the lack of snow everywhere (not just on Glacier Point Road towards Glacier Point). I presume that there's probably not enough of the white stuff to even ski/snow shoe to the Ostrander Ski Hut.

Last time they opened up Glacier Point Road and Tioga Road in the winter (two years ago), did the NPS plow parts of the road that might have had a little bit of snow left before they decided to reopen the roads? If I recall correctly, they opened the roads only after all of the small amount of accumulated snow had melted (no plowing necessary).

"It's not hard to figure out. Many of the law enforcement rangers in the Park are seasonal. Knowing that fact leads one righ to the answer, or at least what I assume is the answer; lack of LE to partrol the road."

That doesn't quite make sense. Obviously, if the snow were there, there would be LE for the road, and that was budgeted, and the people already hired. In snow operations at any resort I've been to, it was a real mess in the driving/parking areas, and you'd see a lot of LE to keep that straightened out.

No, the personnel existed to have the road open.

You wonder what happens to the people who have reservations at the Hut?

You wonder what happens to the people who have reservations at the Hut?

If the Ostrander Ski Hut is remaining open (not sure if it is or not) then I presume they'll need to start their hike to the hut a little bit farther out. Closest TH would be to take the Old Glacier Point Road from Chinquapin to Badger Pass then continue on to the ski hut.

QuoteKen M"It's not hard to figure out. Many of the law enforcement rangers in the Park are seasonal. Knowing that fact leads one righ to the answer, or at least what I assume is the answer; lack of LE to partrol the road."

That doesn't quite make sense. Obviously, if the snow were there, there would be LE for the road, and that was budgeted, and the people already hired. In snow operations at any resort I've been to, it was a real mess in the driving/parking areas, and you'd see a lot of LE to keep that straightened out.

That doesn't make sense. We are talking about facilities being closed, the road being closed. There are no employees working there. All you'd have are vandals.

QuoteNo, the personnel existed to have the road open.

That would be so IF LE were the only personnel involved. It's easier to close the gate than patrol a road that leads to no open facilities.

QuoteYou wonder what happens to the people who have reservations at the Hut?

Hmmm. I guess I always viewed the winter closures as number based, i.e., whilst the facilities (skiing et al) are open, than there is a large concentration of people that need to be managed -- more people than in other areas of the park (at the time). Close down the facilities, and the numbers probably drop off steeply, thus, the park redistributes the limited resources to other more densely populated areas. I never viewed it as catering to DNC, specifically. Actually, the few times that I have spoken to rangers, etc., it always seemed like they were going out of their way to accomodate folks the best they can.

The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

Actually, the few times that I have spoken to rangers, etc., it always seemed like they were going out of their way to accommodate folks the best they can.

Absolutely. The Yosemite rangers that interface with the public are generally wonderful and very dedicated, and they do go out of their way to help those who visit the park. I've never once had a problem with any of them during all the years I've visited Yosemite. Even the LE Rangers at Yosemite have been nice, professional and considerate while carrying out their LE responsibilities.

On the other hand, some of the park's management decisions I do wonder about. And as Ken M. also wondered, the staffing for winter operations has already been budgeted with the expectations of snow and Badger Pass being open. So since there's no snow, did the park's managers decide to furlough some NPS employees due to the lack of snow and hence close off Glacier Point Road as a result?

If not, there really isn't a large concentration of visitors anywhere in the park, including Yosemite Valley, in the winter except during holiday weekends (including the week of Presidents Day holiday) and when the Horsetail Fall becomes lit up in mid-February. But right now, it's pretty dead (visitor-wise) throughout Yosemite.

QuoteplawrenceAbsolutely. The Yosemite rangers that interface with the public are generally wonderful and very dedicated, and they do go out of their way to help those who visit the park. I've never once had a problem with any of them during all the years I've visited Yosemite. Even the LE Rangers at Yosemite have been nice, professional and considerate while carrying out their LE responsibilities.

It's called "professionalism."

QuoteOn the other hand, some of the park's management decisions I do wonder about. And as Ken M. also wondered, the staffing for winter operations has already been budgeted with the expectations of snow and Badger Pass being open. So since there's no snow, did the park's managers decide to furlough some NPS employees due to the lack of snow and hence close off Glacier Point Road as a result?

The problem is that you are making absurd assumptions about things you know nothing about. And you are always doing it in a way that makes management look like idiots. They've been running National Parks for almost 100 years now. They have it pretty much figured out. Why do you automatically assume they do not know what they are doing?

QuoteIf not, there really isn't a large concentration of visitors anywhere in the park, including Yosemite Valley, in the winter except during holiday weekends (including the week of Presidents Day holiday) and when the Horsetail Fall becomes lit up in mid-February. But right now, it's pretty dead (visitor-wise) throughout Yosemite.

Which means that employees, including LE, are sent home, not hired, laid off, etc.

QuoteplawrenceAbsolutely. The Yosemite rangers that interface with the public are generally wonderful and very dedicated, and they do go out of their way to help those who visit the park. I've never once had a problem with any of them during all the years I've visited Yosemite. Even the LE Rangers at Yosemite have been nice, professional and considerate while carrying out their LE responsibilities.

It's called "professionalism."

I did mention their professionalism. But it's more than just that. They appear to be genuinely good people who go out of their way to be helpful, beyond what it's necessary.

QuoteDave

Quoteplawrence

On the other hand, some of the park's management decisions I do wonder about. And as Ken M. also wondered, the staffing for winter operations has already been budgeted with the expectations of snow and Badger Pass being open. So since there's no snow, did the park's managers decide to furlough some NPS employees due to the lack of snow and hence close off Glacier Point Road as a result?

The problem is that you are making absurd assumptions about things you know nothing about.

Precisely, what are these absurd assumptions that you're talking about? Please clarify.

QuoteDave

And you are always doing it in a way that makes management look like idiots. They've been running National Parks for almost 100 years now. They have it pretty much figured out. Why do you automatically assume they do not know what they are doing?

Huh?

In almost all instances, I never thought of Yosemite's (or in general, NPS's) management as idiots though I have disagreed with a number of their decisions. And one of my major beef I have with them about the decisions they sometimes make is precisely because I feel that they DO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING (and the potential impacts of the decisions). I don't consider them idiots at all. Instead, I think a number of their management decisions are very "political" in nature and others are done because of expediency, not necessarily because it's the very best course of action. And another major beef I've had is their tendency (like many organizations) to try to sweep things under the rug (instead of bringing the problem to light and taking care of it in a more open manner). But in no way have I ever considered them to be idiots, nor have I tried to make them look like idiots.

And even though they have been running our National Parks for almost 100 years, I wouldn't be surprised if they (NPS Management) openly stated that they still have a lot to learn (and are learning more every year) how to manage the National Parks better. They understand better than almost all of us, that their management of the parks can still be improved.

I know you think otherwise, but overall my opinion of the National Park Service, their management and employees and the work they do in preserving our parks for future generation is VERY positive. But that doesn't stop me from being critical of them when I see something that I think should have been handled differently.

(And when you know that my assumptions and opinions about the Park Service are wrong, or way off base, please continue to point them out but with more specifics please (and not just vague generalities). You often will state that my position is wrong, but then don't provide any specifics to show how it's wrong. Honestly, I don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong. But I would like to see the evidence why I'm wrong.)

Quoteplawrence....I know you think otherwise, but overall my opinion of the National Park Service, their management and employees and the work they do in preserving our parks for future generation is VERY positive. But that doesn't stop me from being critical of them when I see something that I think should have been handled differently....

Your criticism are based on beliefs. You know nothing about what goes on inside park management yet you constantly criticize them. If you have a positive view of their management, it sure doesn't show.

Whose criticisms are not – based in part – on one's beliefs? Shouldn't that go without saying?

But my criticisms are not based solely on my beliefs but mostly on my observations plus verifiable facts (when available).

(But I concede what I observe might not always be what it initially appears to be. Hence, I don't mind being corrected.)

QuoteDave

You know nothing about what goes on inside park management yet you constantly criticize them.

I know a lot more than you think. I've had personal one-to-one conversations with number of the park's top management including including past and the current park's superintendents and a number of the members of their staffs. I'm diligent in reading any documents they make available to the public. I'm as well informed as most of the public could possibly be. But do I know everything that is said behind close doors or through confidential communications? Or course not. That shouldn't prevent me (or others) from criticizing their actions when we feel it's warranted, though. Again, when you can provide specifics where I'm wrong, please go ahead and do so. I'm all ears.

QuoteDave

If you have a positive view of their management, it sure doesn't show.

That's only because it's only human nature to vent frustration or criticism about some action on a forum than to offer praise for someone or some organization for doing their jobs well (as is expected).

But I'm not alone in this regard... Almost all who post on this forum are more likely to post something critical about the Park Service than post a specific praise of one of its actions. That doesn't mean we hate the National Park Service and what it does (or have a low opinion of its employees), just that we don't find it necessary to point out the stuff that it does right versus when we feel that it did something wrong.

From what I've seen your beliefs about park management are not based on "verifiable facts," but just beliefs. Criticizing the Park management is fine, I do it often, just do it about something they've actually done, not something based on a belief fueled by a lack of details.

So back to the original announcement that Badger Pass/Glacier road is closed (all of this deep-seated conspiracy of the park managment to make bad decisions does not seem logical to me)

Here is what I think: As an outdoor business owner, I am constantly weighing risk: Liablility(to the company), Personal Safety(of all involved) and the trade-off of what is to be gained by taking an action in which Liability & Safety are at risk. Add one more factor to the equation: High Maintenance (cost)

The above three are always taken into consideration when accepting new contracts: Liability, Personal Safety, & Cost, so that a job must be large enough to warrant undertaking any or all of the three aspects of Risk (both physical & finanacial)

I believe that the choice to open or close the road to Badger Pass uses the same considerations:

1. GP road is icy & dangerous much of the time during winter (so that careful consideration must be employed as to how to manage the road)2. Personal safety of the employees who must patrol these areas is higher than, say, other areas of the park3. The cost of maintaining GP road during the winter is probably high

When the recreation areas are open, there is a large concentration of people who will enjoy the area, there is a financial gain to the parkand DNC, and the efforts to keep the roads accessable will be utilized by a large group which will make the effort worthwhile.

With the recreation areas closed, a lot of effort could be put forth with a relatively small return of use, (and yes, financial return (which I believe to be minimal)

Simply put, due to the three "risks" mentioned, it is probably just not worth it to keep the road open for minimal traffic.

The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

QuoteBee....Simply put, due to the three "risks" mentioned, it is probably just not worth it to keep the road open for minimal traffic.

All very good, valid, reasons. It's just safer, cheaper, and easier, to close the road at Chinquapin, than to keep it open. Doing so keeps vandals and thieves away from an unopen snow park, keeps people off of an icy road that's not plowed, and better uses park resources elsewhere. If we get enough snow, I'm sure they'll open the road as soon as they can.

We went to Yosemite Dec 27th and just got home tonight. We wish that Glacier Point Rd and even Tioga Rd had been opened so the crowding in the Valley could have been dispersed to another area. Not to mention we would have loved to use our telescope at Glacier Point since it was so clear. I don't know about NPS staff but I met a DNC Badger Pass shuttle driver at the ice skating rink and since she did not have seniority to get another position while waiting for Badger to open, she had to leave.

QuoteBee
I believe that the choice to open or close the road to Badger Pass uses the same considerations:

1. GP road is icy & dangerous much of the time during winter (so that careful consideration must be employed as to how to manage the road)2. Personal safety of the employees who must patrol these areas is higher than, say, other areas of the park3. The cost of maintaining GP road during the winter is probably high