Hello All just would like to bring in the news re Philippine Airlines finally making a come back into the main stream by opening its destinations and slowly resuming a more expensive network hopefully to surpass its golden years way back when.....

PAL will be commencing 3x a week to ISTANBUL on Aug 5 then come September 4x a week to MOSCOW. On a more imminent movement, on March will be flights to Phnom Penh, Darwin, Brisbane then April its daily flight to KUWAIT.

If all comes to play with its CAT 2 lifting we would definitely see CHICAGO, NEW YORK right away followed by LONDON, PARIS, FRANKFURT and ROME.

Congratulations to PAL, hope we get to hear soon what aircrafts are joining the fleet. They till have 35 more to order.

Hello Akiestar, the MOSCOW is DME. The approval by CAB is just formalities, it is basically approved already. There are a whole lot of flight allocations to the Philippines and v.v. just shelved since there were no capabilities then and the airlines marketing directions then were different as well.

I have insiders at CAB and basically approval is based on the capability and logisitics wise of the carrier to mount flights and technically sustain it that is why as early as now Philippine Airlines was able to let it out in the press already.

They will be utilizing the A330 High Gross Variant. Transero flies to CEBU on charter flights. The Philippines has raised its visibility as a tourist destination and Russia for one has made Cebu in particular a wedding and honeymoon package from their end.

The basis for the CAT 2 was during the integration of the ATO (Air Transportation Office) to the CAAP (Civil Avialtion Authority of the Philippines) supposedly the personnel from the former will be placed on the organizational table of the new CAAP unfortunately the implementations were meddled with a whole lot of politics thus resulting to the new CAAP with positions not filled but in theory all the technical people are present sans the title required which led to the conclusion that safety is compromised due to lack of people as per CAAP table or organization to the letter. (where in fact, there are, all just a matter of filling up the titles) there is your walk through on what went wrong.

Ergo technically the Philippines is qualified to be CAT 1 even way back previous audits.

The T7 were basically intended for the expansions the likes of Chicago and New York and while new planes were joining the fleet the current fleet will sustain the present network, what am saying here is yes they are capable to serve their projected expansion as we speak.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Thread starter):If all comes to play with its CAT 2 lifting we would definitely see CHICAGO, NEW YORK right away followed by LONDON, PARIS, FRANKFURT and ROME.

Is there any market for the European routes or are they just for vanity?

I mean even Qantas is leaving Europe (other than the massive London-XXX-Australia) because of the Middle Eastern carriers... and connections from Europe to Philippines through DXB/DOH/AUH are basically endless and convenient. Flying to IST is a great way to have access to TK's huge network in Europe. Why would they need anything else?

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):Flying to IST is a great way to have access to TK's huge network in Europe. Why would they need anything else?

Filipinos (at least the ones in Europe) will pay for the convenience of flying non-stop to MNL rather than stop once or twice somewhere in the world. This is why Europe-based Filipinos apparently didn't take stopping in TPE very well: when I flew back from WAW, a lot were even surprised that AMS-MNL became AMS-TPE-MNL.

Unlike Filipinos based in the Middle East, Filipinos in Europe are more affluent and can afford flying on more expensive routings if its more convenient. Of course, still within reason.

Don't forget too that PR is targeting areas where there are lots of Filipinos. There are close to 500,000 Filipinos in the UK, and close to 400,000 in Italy, for example. They'll make for strong O-D markets, although granted the traffic PR's chasing (VFR, balikbayan, etc.) is low-yield.

(On TK: I know word's going around that they'll codeshare on MNL-IST, but whether this is indicative of a bigger partnership, I can't say.)

Hello Eaglefarm4. Yes the Darwin Brisbane will be utilizing the A320 and be keeping the previously announced scheme that was supposed to have started last December 2012. It will be the "bus stop" scheme I assume.

I agree with you Akiestar, but while awaiting the special arrangment with the EU, the direct flights will eventually be started the PAL the soonest possible opportunity, IST is a warm up so to speak, a peek or a fourth of a foot in?

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 4): The T7 were basically intended for the expansions the likes of Chicago and New York and while new planes were joining the fleet the current fleet will sustain the present network, what am saying here is yes they are capable to serve their projected expansion as we speak.

I understand what you're saying but the LAS route is served via Vancouver....can the 77W have the range for non stop to NYC or ORD?

PAL is digging its own grave by venturing into places such as Moscow and Istanbul when it should be aggressively targeting the Middle East which has higher yields and S/F year round to/from Manila versus Europe.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 15):PAL is digging its own grave by venturing into places such as Moscow and Istanbul when it should be aggressively targeting the Middle East which has higher yields and S/F year round to/from Manila versus Europe.

And also for the Middle East, it must reconfigure few of its B773ERs into a more higher density layout i.e. 18J / 420Y to achieve better financial performance.

If its an A333IGW in the future planned for the Middle East then it should be configured as 18J / 304Y.

Uh, PR is planning all of those. They're planning a big return to the Middle East, starting service to, based on what I've heard, DXB (to the point that they opposed EK adding its third DXB-MNL frequency, a complaint that they since dropped), RUH, DOH and KWI, all of which will be served with the new A330-300 HGW.

The 77Ws are designed for Europe and North America, and it will stay that way. No reconfiguration is planned for the fleet, as they will be one of the replacements for the 744s when they exit the fleet in 2017.

Honestly, I don't see why people think PR's digging its own grave when it tries to do something different. In my A.net stalking days, I can recall people saying that "Oh, PR won't make LAS work" or "Oh, PR won't make the 77W work". Well, aside from LAS (which PR said was doing poorly, but we don't know how), it seems that the airline's doing something right. For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16):Honestly, I don't see why people think PR's digging its own grave when it tries to do something different. In my A.net stalking days, I can recall people saying that "Oh, PR won't make LAS work" or "Oh, PR won't make the 77W work". Well, aside from LAS (which PR said was doing poorly, but we don't know how), it seems that the airline's doing something right. For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

I second that !
As much as it seems that PR will be flying to "second best" destinations (IST/DME) just they seem to think out of the box to get things going.
They´re certainly working hard to get the EU ban lifted and if those routes to IST and DME do work PR won´t trade them in for EU-destinations after the ban is lifted eventually.

For me it seems PR is deliberately forced to think out of the box which in the end might even do them a favor ...

Serving destinations like LON/FRA/FCO/ARN with B777 is viable IMHO. They just need to configure their aircraft Y-heavy. And they might be able to fill a few C-seats.
There are not only business travellers flying in "C/J" but also tourists willing to fork out some extra €€€ for more comfort.
Also, PAL might be able to get some connex traffic between Europe and Australia (if transferring at MNL becomes "more comfortable" eventually ...)

Personally, I think PR will have a tough time anywhere now in Europe since the big 3 in the Middle East are so established in MNL with great connections thru their hubs. Though I'd love to see them make a good go of London.
I wonder if PR might make TG an offer for their A345's to do the ULR runs to NYC & ORD.

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 4):The basis for the CAT 2 was during the integration of the ATO (Air Transportation Office) to the CAAP (Civil Avialtion Authority of the Philippines) supposedly the personnel from the former will be placed on the organizational table of the new CAAP unfortunately the implementations were meddled with a whole lot of politics thus resulting to the new CAAP with positions not filled but in theory all the technical people are present sans the title required which led to the conclusion that safety is compromised due to lack of people as per CAAP table or organization to the letter. (where in fact, there are, all just a matter of filling up the titles) there is your walk through on what went wrong.

Ergo technically the Philippines is qualified to be CAT 1 even way back previous audits.

Seriously....you think technically Philippines is qualified to be CAT 1?????? Have you ever tried to get any work done in the CAAP ?....something like as simple as renewing your license? No wonder CAAP failed its last audit as well. Well if the management at CAAP has the same view as yours then CAT 2 will never be lifted. just a matter of filling up titles you say eh? I see the same faces in the organization be it ATO or CAAP and the same crap that you have to get thru to get any work done. Political interference still seems unavoidable unfortunately. How many DGs have changed in the past 4 years?

Coming back to the topic...its good to know PAL is finally expanding their wings despite the CAAP mess. hopefully the new stakeholders can revive its glory days.

However they better not be late in their party to the Middle east. Cebu Pacific has announced Oct as their launch of DXB service in a configured 330. AM pretty sure PAL or air phil express can give better value for money flts.

with all these on the table for PAL, really cant wait as to what the remaining 35 orders for the airline will be not to forget Boeing messing up bigtime and their B748i which PAL was eyeing then is not living up to its brochure specs.... i guess an all sweep by airbus will be a no brainer once again......just a segway topic but significant though

Quoting TC957 (Reply 19):Personally, I think PR will have a tough time anywhere now in Europe since the big 3 in the Middle East are so established in MNL with great connections thru their hubs.

I agree... Filipinos are not that numerous in Europe (at least porcentually) and they are much more widespread all over the place (if you compare it to the Gulf, Singapore or HKG where they are basically in "city-states" that have already direct flights). I mean, what is the advantage of a flight from FCO for a Filipino living in the Milan area? Filipinos in the Emirates just hop to AUH or DXB and that's all... in Northern Italy or Manchester you just take that Emirates or Qatar and connect in the Middle East.

Absolutely... there are millions of Filipinos working in the Gulf nations. Also any contract in the Gulf (as menial as the job might be) would have an annual return flight to the point of origin of the worker including in the contract... so that generates an amazing amount of low-yielding traffic from the Gulf to the Philippines.

Did they ever serve ord. Anway i see this as a big loss if they do more US non stop. This is not the times when ULH is very economically viable, let alone to notoriously low yielding destination which the Philippines is in spades. I suppose the mideast would fill the plane but how is the yield. I am guessing if they expand they would need some good corporate contract or cargo to do it profitably.

All go home at least once per year, or more often for those who can afford it.
For Kuwait, that is 426 per day on average.
For UAE, the figure equates to 2 full flights each day.

The big issue is not whether the Filipinos will jump ship from middle eastern carriers to PAL, they will do that without doubt if PAL is cheaper, the issue will be competition between PAL and Cebu Pacific who are also starting DXB, haven't AirPhil Express also been mentioned for Dammam?

.....it would not be too far-fetched that they could do it all again .

Innovative ideas are indeed the order of the day! .

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 18):Don't forget AirPhil Express is getting A330s. Dammam has been mooted as top of their list for MiddleEast ops. I think AirPhil Exp could also better fit the likes of Doha and Muscat.

Their HGW A333s will be the group's warhorses for the LCC battles in the Middle East.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 19):Personally, I think PR will have a tough time anywhere now in Europe since the big 3 in the Middle East are so established in MNL with great connections thru their hubs.

Quoting TC957 (Reply 19):I wonder if PR might make TG an offer for their A345's to do the ULR runs to NYC & ORD.

That could be a reckless move when they still have 77Ws due without a definite place to fly to.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 24):I mean, what is the advantage of a flight from FCO for a Filipino living in the Milan area? Filipinos in the Emirates just hop to AUH or DXB and that's all... in Northern Italy or Manchester you just take that Emirates or Qatar and connect in the Middle East.

Clearly, you have not experienced lugging boxes between airport terminals .

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 24):Absolutely... there are millions of Filipinos working in the Gulf nations. Also any contract in the Gulf (as menial as the job might be) would have an annual return flight to the point of origin of the worker including in the contract... so that generates an amazing amount of low-yielding traffic from the Gulf to the Philippines.

Makes you wonder if "that amazing amount of low-yielding traffic" doesn't add up to something in the end? .

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 25): This is not the times when ULH is very economically viable, let alone to notoriously low yielding destination which the Philippines is in spades.

Yes, it's very puzzling why foreign carriers are so protective of their connections onto these God-forsaken shores BTW...how is YYZ doing?

.....although the short stint might not have afforded some photos of it there, in the database .

Quoting awthompson (Reply 27):The big issue is not whether the Filipinos will jump ship from middle eastern carriers to PAL, they will do that without doubt if PAL is cheaper, the issue will be competition between PAL and Cebu Pacific who are also starting DXB, haven't AirPhil Express also been mentioned for Dammam?

There would be enough to go around...as you've made plainly evident in your post .

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 29):I thought the new HGW A330s will go to PR, while the existing fleet of PR A330s will go to 2P?

You're forgetting the 10 additional HGWs they ordered. They may let go of the old A330s after all is said and done. Airbus probably offered them a good deal on a new fleet with the early models in exchange.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16): For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

Since KL dropped the non-stop there is probably viable room for a lower cost operation.

You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!

This apparently just came out on ABS-CBNnews.com. Seems that PR is bent on starting Brazil, as well as MXP (instead of FCO), CDG, CPT, JNB, TLV and, in the long term, some coveted slots to HND, as well as other airports in Japan.

Chief Pilot of Airphilexpress leaves for Tolouse to inspect the new A330 and A321 for soon to be PALEXPRESS, anyone who has got an access at Tolouse the airphilexpress soon to be palexpress will be sporting a new livery... so keep us posted as to the new look anyone....

This passage from your linked report could put a damper on PR's ambitions.....

Quote:
"Then there is the matter of the so-called onerous royalty requirement imposed by the Russian government for Moscow to grant PAL overflight rights to Siberia and central Russia.

PAL needs to fly non-stop to several Western European cities but it has to pay a hefty price for such rights over the huge Russian airspace."

A quick look at the GCM linked in #28 will show how such a treatment can harm PR's Eurozone plans...forcing them to take longer, more southerly routings. Not saying the latter would guarantee cheaper passage, mind.

But I love how the reporter wrote "PAL plans daily flights to Milan with its long-haul Airbus A320s"...classic !

Quoting airlinebuilder (Reply 34): the airphilexpress soon to be palexpress will be sporting a new livery... so keep us posted as to the new look anyone....

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):Clearly, you have not experienced lugging boxes between airport terminals

Filipinos in Europe are less numerous and are way more widespread (certainly there are not +2 million Filipinos in Europe like in ME, otherwise just check the numbers in Reply 46). In that case, serving one airport in Italy or Germany does not really help. If you live in Florence or Stuttgart and you have to go all the way to MXP or FRA... then try to lug those balikbayan boxes in a car (expensive fuel, tolls, traffic jams, bad weather... and many of those Filipinos will not even have a car in Europe), or take a bus or train, or take another flight (and pay additional surcharge for those boxes)... it just does not work.

This is the perfect environment where airlines like TK or the Gulf ones blossom. You can get your flight from your local airport (Bologna, Stuttgart, Lyon...) connect somewhere in the Middle East and all the way to Phillipines.

In the Middle East it is way easier. Even if you live in a further Emirate like Fujairah (and most people live in DXB or AUH close to those airports), getting someone to give you a ride to DXB (or even renting a taxi/driver) is way easier and cheaper. Those Gulf states (the expection Saudi Arabia and to a lesser extent Oman and UAE), Hong Kong and Singapore (which are some of the places with the highest number of Filipinos) are basically city-states where you serve the whole country with one single commercial airport.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 28):Makes you wonder if "that amazing amount of low-yielding traffic" doesn't add up to something in the end?.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 30): You're forgetting the 10 additional HGWs they ordered. They may let go of the old A330s after all is said and done. Airbus probably offered them a good deal on a new fleet with the early models in exchange.

yes that could be the reason

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16):Uh, PR is planning all of those. They're planning a big return to the Middle East, starting service to, based on what I've heard, DXB (to the point that they opposed EK adding its third DXB-MNL frequency, a complaint that they since dropped), RUH, DOH and KWI, all of which will be served with the new A330-300 HGW.

The 77Ws are designed for Europe and North America, and it will stay that way. No reconfiguration is planned for the fleet, as they will be one of the replacements for the 744s when they exit the fleet in 2017.

Honestly, I don't see why people think PR's digging its own grave when it tries to do something different. In my A.net stalking days, I can recall people saying that "Oh, PR won't make LAS work" or "Oh, PR won't make the 77W work". Well, aside from LAS (which PR said was doing poorly, but we don't know how), it seems that the airline's doing something right. For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

I think you need to understand why EK and EY are successful in MNL and why "surprisingly" neither one of them have ever used A333s to operate this route and instead use B77Ws. Because its a volumetric route and the A333 due to its smaller on board capacity will not make money operating it. Routes such as DAC and MNL for EK do very well because of the low operating cost per unit generated by deploying a 434 seater B77W on these routes.

EY uses a 412 seater B77W to MNL which has 28J seats only. PAL's current A333s have 42J + 260Y which is very premium heavy and definitely not suited for MNL-GCC routes let alone any of PAL's other routes too. If a more premium airline such as QR and EY do not have 42J seats on their A333s and B77Ws operating to MNL (QR has 24J on B77W to MNL) then there is no business case justifying PAL to have 42J in its J class on board B77Ws and A333s scheduled for GCC flights.

If the A333IGW is destined for the GCC, then it must have a more denser configuration such as 18J (maximum) along with 320Y at least to make the route cover its operating/variable costs at least.

Quoting CityAirline (Reply 40):Are these numbers one way? And are they O/D? So for example in Dubai, people flying MNL-DXB and MNL-XXX-DXB are both included in the figure, while those flying MNL-DXB-XXX are not?

these numbers are round trip and yes include all airlines offering nonstop and one stop service

Quoting behramjee (Reply 39):I think you need to understand why EK and EY are successful in MNL and why "surprisingly" neither one of them have ever used A333s to operate this route and instead use B77Ws.

You may think differently, but to me this sounds slightly patronizing. I know why EK and EY send 77Ws here, to the extent that MNL is being eyed as one of the first destinations of the bi-class EK A380 when it comes online, so you don't need to explain to me something I already know: that sheer volume alone can demand for flights to the Middle East from MNL and vice-versa.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 39):If the A333IGW is destined for the GCC, then it must have a more denser configuration such as 18J (maximum) along with 320Y at least to make the route cover its operating/variable costs at least.

So far, I don't know how PR will be configuring its new A330s, but given flight utilization patterns, I think we need to strike a balance between having too few J seats and too many. The A330s are also used on high-yielding Japanese and HNL routes, as well as Australia (which is currently served by the 77W), so having too few Mabuhay Class seats on those routes might not be a good idea.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 38):Filipinos in Europe are less numerous and are way more widespread (certainly there are not +2 million Filipinos in Europe like in ME, otherwise just check the numbers in Reply 46). In that case, serving one airport in Italy or Germany does not really help. If you live in Florence or Stuttgart and you have to go all the way to MXP or FRA... then try to lug those balikbayan boxes in a car (expensive fuel, tolls, traffic jams, bad weather... and many of those Filipinos will not even have a car in Europe), or take a bus or train, or take another flight (and pay additional surcharge for those boxes)... it just does not work.

Greece has about 75,000 Filipinos, mostly in and around Athens. The absence of both Thai and Singapore, which had good connections, has made it more difficult to get between the countries. Now, more are going on Emirates and Qatar. Australia, which has a large Greek population(and hasn't had direct air service in years) are also depending on EK/QR connections. So, a bit of a logjam here, when you throw in people from other Asian countries going to Greece, into the mix.

We are certainly awaiting the proposed PAL trip to Istanbul, as it will help things considerably, by offering another reasonable connection option....

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 16):Honestly, I don't see why people think PR's digging its own grave when it tries to do something different. In my A.net stalking days, I can recall people saying that "Oh, PR won't make LAS work" or "Oh, PR won't make the 77W work". Well, aside from LAS (which PR said was doing poorly, but we don't know how), it seems that the airline's doing something right. For Europe, it needs to get its foot in the door before the Middle East airlines beat it to the punch, and with Filipinos becoming more affluent, I hope they'll do well on these routes.

Hi everyone,

This is my inaugural post here on the forum!
Such is the depth of my interest in PAL's growth that I was driven to finally take up membership.

I'm with Akiestar on this, and just want to add a bit more background that might help put to rest some of the pessimism that surrounds PAL's growth plans. Hopefully it's more interesting than unnecessarily tangential.

I am by no means an expert in load factors and yields, but I do know my Southeast Asian economics.

I think it's important to consider PAL's growth plans in the context of the gradually rising economic profile of the Philippines, and also of Asia in general. Whether this translates into better loads in business class or higher yields is another question - 'new' middle class Chinese, for example, are said to be flying budget on Scoot, Jetstar and the like, and alternatively spending big at destination - but there is finally a growing and more 'aspirational', transnational Filipino middle class, whether based at 'home' or abroad.

Related to the gradually improving economic profile of the Philippines is the enthusiasm of Filipinos for their flag carrier. My hypotheses here are narrowly based on personal observations of Filipino communities, membership of which I enjoy. However, dare I say that past problems, or perceptions of, unreliable schedules and high-strung elitist PAL crew, are finally on the wane. So too, hopefully, is the colonial mentality of west-is-best that translates into a preference for anything foreign before 'local'. It's not the be-all-end-all, but it's at least helpful background to understanding carrier preferences when price and convenience are generally equal.

On my 'regular' commute between SYD and MNL, PAL commands a premium for flying direct to Manila ex-SYD and -MEL. This is no different from it's North American flights where PAL commands a premium for flying 'direct'/ same-plane flights to MNL. It's easy to associate MNL and Filipino travellers with junk yields and bargain basement fares, but at least ex-Australia, such budget travellers are not necessarily flying PAL and alternatively flying Jetstar via DRW or Scoot via SIN.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 7):Filipinos (at least the ones in Europe) will pay for the convenience of flying non-stop to MNL rather than stop once or twice somewhere in the world.

Yes - I think the critical thing here is the tendency to over-generalise and cast the entirety of PAL's target market as bargain basement fare hunters just because they're overwhelmingly Filipino. A large proportion will always be highly budget-conscious contract workers, but there has always been a decent and still-growing middle class as Filipinos' incomes on a whole gradually and steadily continue to rise. Yes, there is the archetypal Filipino who will fly two or three stops to save a few dollars (see airpearl's trip report on the Continental flight across Micronesia), but if we're going to talk cultural idiosyncracies, Filipinos need to fly as direct as possible so as to not let all the perishable food they bring go to waste.

At the very least, they'll hopefully be wheeling suitcases rather than lugging boxes on the subway.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 5):I mean even Qantas is leaving Europe (other than the massive London-XXX-Australia) because of the Middle Eastern carriers... and connections from Europe to Philippines through DXB/DOH/AUH are basically endless and convenient.

Yes, it's fair to say that PAL shouldn't count on attracting Kangaroo-route passengers. But ex-Australia passengers to Europe and v.v weren't ever going to be their bread and butter on whatever European flights they mounted. Europe may be in the economic doldrums, but the deployment of migrant workers continues apace and the incomes of Filipinos have counter-cyclically remained stable, if not improved, as they are more likely to work in industries with stable demand and less competition for jobs (nursing, seafaring and logistics, trades, service industries). This doesn't even begin to cover the jobs being transferred to the Philippines.

A long, first post, yes, but I've long wanted to dispel any latent underlying assumptions that drive people to instantly associate MNL with junk yields and therefore dismiss the potential of any expansion routes from MNL. Again, I always stand corrected, but the Philippines itself is currently undergoing or on the verge of a counter-intuitive, economic renaissance of sorts, and this is also important back story to PAL's expansion plans.