Ran into a SOBO a week ago in the Harper's Ferry area. She said she uses 2 drops of Bleach to a quart of water, then waits 20 minutes. Maybe this is common but I hadn't heard this before.

Does anyone have experience and/or direct information on how effective this method is? Is it recommended? or approved by anyone or group? I like the cost and availability ratio to the idea.

Arvada............dhd.

titanium_hiker

09-24-2005, 22:32

yes it does work- but like iodine, there are the warnings about long term use. for emergencies? yes. Would I use it long term? not personally, but it's your body...

titanium

PROFILE

09-24-2005, 23:19

Bleach is basicly cholorine. It is use by most cities in there water supply. I have used bleach off and on for years. When in the military it was the primary mehod of treating water in the field.

Hammock Hanger

09-25-2005, 00:56

Once when on the trail back many many years ago when I actually treated the water and ran out of iodine I stopped in a drug store and the pharmacist told me to use 3-4 drops od bleach for each quart. He said there was not enough bleach to harm me and he did not see any problems using for 6 months. Of course now I am wiser and "don't treat my water at all." -- Wonder if that will hold true when I hike the FT... swamp water????

Just Jeff

09-25-2005, 01:42

Most cities use chlorine dioxide, not chlorine like in bleach. Chlorine dioxide is what Aqua Mira creates when you mix it.

Bleach works, but some studies say it doesn't kill everything, like crypto.

Chlorine works well against a many pathogens, but unfortunately cryptosporidium (a common and widespread protozoan) is not one of them. A fully effective water treatment will remove or inactivate viruses, bacteria, and protozoans. Bleach alone does not do that.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

09-25-2005, 07:25

I've used bleach for decades - add 3 or 4 drops to a quart of water and wait 30 minutes normally, but I add more - up to 10 drops per quart - if I have concerns about the water source. The water should smell a bit like bleach at the end of this procedure. You can get rid of some of the smell and taste by pouring it back and forth from containers several times after the waiting period.

If you plan to use bleach, be sure to use only plain bleach - not scented bleach, color safe bleach or bleach with other additives. Household bleach contains a 3% - 6% solution of sodium hypocloride which breaks down into oxygen, salt and water. http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/sodium_hypochlorite.html In other words, bleach will not build up in your body like iodine.

BTW, researchers do not consider iodine to be any more effective than household bleach in destroying crypto. I just looked at over a dozen sites - mostly research papers from universities. All recommended boiling or a very fine filter as the way to defeat crypto.

Frosty

09-25-2005, 09:57

Chlorine works well against a many pathogens, but unfortunately cryptosporidium (a common and widespread protozoan) is not one of them. A fully effective water treatment will remove or inactivate viruses, bacteria, and protozoans. Bleach alone does not do that.Interesting. COmbining your post with #6 above it begs the questions: Is Aqua Mira effective if: a) Aqua Mira is chlorine based, and b) chlorine is ineffective against cryposporidium.

Nightwalker

09-25-2005, 17:28

yes it does work- but like iodine, there are the warnings about long term use. for emergencies? yes. Would I use it long term? not personally, but it's your body...

titanium
TH, if you drink piped-in water, you drink chlorine. Sodium Hypochlorite, the active ingredient in bleach, is the most common treatment used for chlorinization, because it's the cheapest method. They buy it by the barrel

I use it myself, but only when the water is suspect. Ususally I don't treat. When I do, if it's 3.5% Sodium Hypochlorite, I use 5 drops per liter. If it's the "ultra" 6% stuff, I use 3 drops per liter. Shake for ten seconds and wait 15 minutes.

Check out MSR Viral Stop. It's 2 ounces of 3.5% Sodium Hypochlorite solution, and costs 10 bucks for the pretty little red and white bottle. I just use an empty eyedropper bottle--wrapped in duct tape, so that no one confuses it with eye drops.

Nightwalker

09-25-2005, 17:32

Bleach works, but some studies say it doesn't kill everything, like crypto.
Crypto isn't a real problem on the trail. The last time I heard of it popping up, it was fecal matter related, and in a public swimming area. In NJ, I think.

Only filtering, UV or heat gets cryptosporum, to the best of my knowledge.

Blue Jay

09-25-2005, 19:26

Funny you should ask, just this week I drove a SOBO into town with severe problems coming out both ends. Found him in in the Tom Leanerd Shelter. Good thing I have a rat bag car. His method of water treatment, bleach. Do what you want it's your party.

Panzer1

09-25-2005, 22:16

The problem with using household bleach is that is not stable. It will over time break down and loose its potency. When you purchase the bleach, you do not know how old it is. I also believe that exposure to air and shaking can speed up the process of breaking down. Also, different brands vary in potency to start with so you can never know for sure what you got. You may find yourself uning too little or too much.

The store bought versions of bleach based water purifiers are made to be stable over longer periods of time. They will have an expiration date on the label. And you will always know exactly how much to use.

Panzer

Panzer1

09-25-2005, 22:28

The following is a repost of one of my old post about using bleach.
_________________
the following are some excerpts that I found on the net about using bleach.
Panzer

NOTE: Bleach does not work well in killing off beaver fever (Giardia) or Cryptosporidium parasites. The amount of bleach needed to kill these parasites makes the water almost impossible to drink. If beaver fever or Cryptosporidium are in your water, boiling is the best way to ensure safe drinking water.
-----------
Storing bleach in a warm place will speed up the Chlorine gas leakage. So over time your Chlorine concentration will diminish to a level you have no way of determining. When this happens you will have no idea how much to put in the water, making this a shaky situation.
-------------
Please note on chlorine bleach (liquid variety) that it is merely chlorine gas disolved in water, much like soda pop is CO2 disolved in water. Soda pop can go flat over time if the container is not PERFECTLY air tight. Bleach containers are usually cheap plastic that is gas permiable. Therefore, if you buy liquid bleach now for use later, the chlorine concentration will be less, perhaps MUCH less.
----------
Chlorine also has its limitations. Its solutions are only moderately stable, and organic matter as well as iron and manganese can interfere with the action of chlorine. Low levels of chlorine normally used to disinfect water are not an effective treatment for the parasite Giardia. A relatively high chlorine level must be maintained for at least 30 minutes to kill Giardia. High chlorine concentrations can have objectionable tastes and odors, and even low chlorine concentrations react with some organic compounds to produce strong, unpleasant tastes and odors.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=101703)

Panzer1

09-25-2005, 22:29

Please note that term "Beaver Fever" has nothing to do with girls...

Panzer

Dances with Mice

09-25-2005, 23:46

Please note on chlorine bleach (liquid variety) that it is merely chlorine gas disolved in water, much like soda pop is CO2 disolved in water. Owch! Uh....no, that's much like nails on a chalkboard to a chemist. Bleaching agents of all sorts work because they are oxidizers - and now we'll switch to "Dick and Jane do Science" : oxidizers kill bad things because they have loosely attached oxygen atoms that want to hop off and attach to, or attack, something else. And those unattached, or free, oxygen atoms are killers, they're real radicals, man. Free radicals, you could say. There's a joke in there but don't worry if you didn't get it.

By the way, we're not talking about oxygen molecules here, O2, that's two oxygen atoms who have found each other in this crazy, mixed up world and had a commitment ceremony. Completely different.

Chlorine bleach is an aqueous solution of sodium hypochlorite, NaClO, which itself is made from the electrolysis of chilled salt water. Chlorox doesn't add chlorine gas to water at their manufacturing plant, no one does. Gaseous chlorine isn't used in the process at all. In solution, and I'll have mercy and skip the chemical equations, NaClO partially decomposes into hypochlorous acid - HClO, which acts as an oxidizer when that oxygen atom on the end jumps off. It's the various oxidizing reactions (called 'bleaching') that kill the bad guys. The chlorine is just the vehicle that the oxygen uses to drive to the scene of the crime.

Back to "Dick and Jane do Science" - The halogens - like Chlorine and Iodine are sort of like chemical Post-It notes. They stick to things, or things stick to them, but not real hard. In this case chlorine is used as a carrier for loosely bound oxygen atoms. Don't get all hung up on the chlorine stuff. Once the oxygen jumps off HClO, the chlorine still doesn't form chlorine gas, it forms hydrochloric acid, HCl, which willl grab a sodium cation still floating around the solution and form NaCl, or salt.

I'm not arguing in favor of using bleach for water treatment, just for accuracy. And for fun...but at least I admit it.

Dances with Mice

09-26-2005, 00:43

Deleted,double post.

titanium_hiker

09-26-2005, 12:16

I trust the people in charge of water purification. I don't trust myself and the bleach manufacturer's ability to get every nasty in the water. I haven't got this worked out yet, but I think I'll filter.

titanium

The Solemates

09-26-2005, 13:34

I trust the people in charge of water purification. I don't trust myself and the bleach manufacturer's ability to get every nasty in the water. I haven't got this worked out yet, but I think I'll filter.

titanium

Agreed. The only thing I use bleach for is to clean out my Camelbak bladder or Platypus bag periodically.

fiddlehead

09-26-2005, 16:19

Bleach is the only water treatment i carry. I don't use it much (if the water source is being filtered by the ground, i don't worry, unless it's coming from just below and outhouse or similar location)
I haven't gotten sick from water in the past 11,000 miles of hiking now and haven't treated any of that water except to use bleach. I saw on here above that some guy in a shelter was sick from using bleach (possibly). Perhaps he didn't wait 20 minutes, or longer if it's really cold water. I use 1 drop per litre unless i think it's extremely dirty, and then i use 2 and ALWAYS wait 20 minutes if it's fairly warm and 30-40 minutes if it's really cold. I use a Visine bottle that i emptied out to store it in and change it twice a year (aprox)
I have had Giardia already and believe that that's why i don't get it anymore, even when i drink the water in Asia (as long as it passes MY common sense tests)
I don't mind all the filters out there anymore, to each his own of course. but i do worry sometimes that people assume that everyone filters so they can wash/clean up in the springs. Please respect the fact that many of us do not treat the water and keep all water sources as clean as you found them.
(and you should keep an open mind towards all these filter companies too. they love to frighten you)

Spirit Walker

09-26-2005, 17:17

What did you do about the cow ponds on the CDT? I'm not that worried about giardia, but I have a real disgust at drinking visible cow/duck/elk droppings in my water. I'd like to get past that but, so far, haven't managed very well. I hate carrying a filter, but you know what the Wyoming water sources are like.

Seeker

09-27-2005, 01:56

FEMA recommends 16 drops per gallon for suspicious water sources during disasters.

i just use aqua mira... light, no taste (though some do report it), and it's what many municipalities use (chlorine dioxide, that is, not AM drops!)

Amigi'sLastStand

05-27-2006, 16:41

Is Aqua Mira UL/NSF/ANSI certified to kill giardia or crypto? Not that I can find. Also, doesn't the side of the bottle say it is not effective against cysts? Cant remember. Let me know.
Crypto isn't much of a threat on the AT, and you're much more likely to get giardia from other hikers and privies, than from water on the trail.

Either buy and carry a good filter, or save your money for cheeseburgers. JMO.

fiddlehead

05-27-2006, 23:33

The worst i found was in the red desert section and i searched around until i found a source. Yes it was coming right out of a cow paddy. I cleaned it up best i could, waited about 30 minutes, used my windscreen for my stove to funnel it into my pesi bottle, and used about 4 drops of chorine on that one. I drank tea that night instead of water (hot) and got fresh water as soon as i could. It wasn't so bad although i wouldn't want to have to drink it like that too often. I didn't get sick though and that's what counts.
You know, and old cowboy told me that the cattlemen don't treat the water and often drink water from a stream that has cow dung in it. They don't believe that cow's carry giardia. I tend to agree with them. I like to find small trickles of running water. I believe the ground is the best filter. (but not cow dung )

The Hog

05-28-2006, 08:59

The reality, unfortunately, is that cows carry lots of intestinal parasites that are transmissible to humans. One of them is E. coli 0157:H7. That's the same strain of E. coli that is sometimes transmitted in undercooked beef. Something like one out of every 24 cows has this in their intestinal tract. E. coli 0157:H7 causes bloody diarrhea in humans that can (and sometimes does) lead to hemolytic uremic syndrome, which can kill you.

Frolicking Dinosaurs

05-28-2006, 11:22

My grandparents lived their entire adult lives in a house that was built by my great-great grandfather. Its water source was a shallow, hand-dug well. When the prissy engineers from the department of health got around to examining said well, they found several pathogens and frogs living in it and declared that my grandparents must install a treatment system. Papa did and promptly disconnected the @#$&% thing the moment the inspectors left because "it makes the water taste awful". No one ever got sick on the water. - not babies, not the old and frail, not even my cousin who allergic to everything.

While I'm sure that the engineers who test water and tell us how pure our water 'has' to be think they are correct, I think they overstate the dangers a lot. Fact is, people like Granny Gatewood hiked the trail long before there were filters, drops or tablets and survived. Many people hike it today without treating the water and survive. I would certainly boil water in an area with cow patties (and only use that water if no other was available).

Mountain Maiden

05-28-2006, 13:42

Anyone have any experience or opinions with KlearWater (by Xinix)? It is advertised as a"no-mix" chlorine dioxide and distributed by BPLight.
(http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/klearwater_xinix_chlorine_dioxide_clo2_water_treat ment.html)

Butch Cassidy

05-28-2006, 16:23

I went from Springer to Maine in 05. Never filtered, only treated water twice and did not get as much as an upset stomach. I do not recomend this, I just chose to be selective of water and accept the risk. ON the other hand My son with whom I am hiking with next year has decided to filter. I guess that blows the age and wisdom thing out the window huh? Butch:cool: Team Wild bunch GaMe 07:)

fiddlehead

05-28-2006, 21:11

The reality, unfortunately, is that cows carry lots of intestinal parasites that are transmissible to humans. One of them is E. coli 0157:H7. That's the same strain of E. coli that is sometimes transmitted in undercooked beef. Something like one out of every 24 cows has this in their intestinal tract. E. coli 0157:H7 causes bloody diarrhea in humans that can (and sometimes does) lead to hemolytic uremic syndrome, which can kill you.

So how does this (E. coli 0157:H7) react to chorine? Why is it I (and so many others who don't treat) don't get sick?
Why can the people of Nepal all drink the local water and not get sick, yet when we go there, so many westerners get sick? Is it because of our (or their) immune system is better? Or we have been exposed to the problem and our bodies have adjusted same as the locals? or is it because chorine works? or a combination of the 3?

Panzer1

05-29-2006, 01:15

I just use an empty eyedropper bottle--wrapped in duct tape, so that no one confuses it with eye drops.

Actually that does makes a lot of sense to wrap the bottle in duct tape. I have heard of hikers that do not do this. I can only imagine the horrors of what might happen if someone, somehow found an lost eye drop bottle with bleach in and used it in their eyes.

Panzer

Frolicking Dinosaurs

05-29-2006, 04:43

So how does this (E. coli 0157:H7) react to chorine?
From - E. coli0157:H7 in drinking water -- US EPASource page: http://www.epa.gov/safewater/ecoli.html
How is water treated to protect me from E. coli?
The water can be treated using chlorine, ultra-violet light, or ozone, all of which act to kill or inactivate E. coli.
Why is it I (and so many others who don't treat) don't get sick? Why can the people of Nepal all drink the local water and not get sick, yet when we go there, so many westerners get sick? Is it because of our (or their) immune system is better? Or we have been exposed to the problem and our bodies have adjusted same as the locals? or is it because chlorine works? or a combination of the 3?I think chlorine is more effective on pathogens commonly found in water sources available to hikers who are carefully selecting their sources than those who sell filters and other water purification products used by hikers would have us believe.

I also believe that exposure to pathogens in small quantities likely does lead to the development of antibodies - sort of like what having had diseases like the measles or mumps or the vaccines for those diseases does. The immune system has a strong memory that enables it to recognize foreign substances that enter the body even if the exposure occurred many years before. Immune memory is particular to specific germs and it does not mean that immune memory has been developed for all types of germs. This would explain why Nepal's natives can drink water that contained pathogens they have been exposed to all of their lives while drinking the same water makes unexposed Westerners ill.

The Hog

05-29-2006, 07:58

Yes, depending on the dosage, chlorine should kill all of the pathogenic and nonpathogenic strains of E. coli. But, as has been stated elsewhere, chlorine will not kill all the bugs in your water, so chlorine alone cannot be recommended as an effective water treatment.

Remember that animal feces contain a large array of microorganisms that include viruses, bacteria, and protozoa. These feces are either deposited in, or washed into (by rainfall) so-called "pristine" water sources. An effective water treatment removes or kills these three classes of bugs. If any are left out, you've wasted your money.

Why is it that some people never seem to get sick drinking untreated or unfiltered water? I've spent many years in a microbiology laboratory, but immunology is a whole other field. So I can't answer that question. But I can tell you one thing.

Drinking untreated and unfiltered water is dosing yourself with fecally derived organisms, some of which can and do cause disease. Anyone is of course free to take their chances, but, after spending 16 years in a water quality laboratory testing water for bacterial content, I have to say I don't recommend it.

fiddlehead

05-29-2006, 22:20

I am often amazed here in Thailand to see some things!
My Mother in law is in her 70's (she's not sure how old) and has never treated any water in her life and has NEVER seen a doctor! (they drink rainwater) Amazing to me.
Also, i've said this before on whiteblaze but there are some recipes and food from northeast Thailand where they eat uncooked pork and beef! They eat these fairly often and they are considered a delicacy. i won't eat that although i am trying out some of the bugs lately. (my wife loves the beetles and eats them like peanuts when she's drinking beer)

alaxsxa

06-01-2006, 13:53

I have treated water with iodine once. All other times i have gotten water from a water source i stay on the safe side and boil it. That leaves nothing to chance.

SGT Rock

06-01-2006, 15:17

I am often amazed here in Thailand to see some things!
My Mother in law is in her 70's (she's not sure how old) and has never treated any water in her life and has NEVER seen a doctor! (they drink rainwater) Amazing to me.
Also, i've said this before on whiteblaze but there are some recipes and food from northeast Thailand where they eat uncooked pork and beef! They eat these fairly often and they are considered a delicacy. i won't eat that although i am trying out some of the bugs lately. (my wife loves the beetles and eats them like peanuts when she's drinking beer)

Well part of the thing is there are certain "flora" in any water system that your body can get used to. LWolf says he never treats, and my guss is his body has adapted. Heck, there was one article that even talks about how some folks even walk around with Giardia and never know it. My guess is that people that survive into adulthood in places that have lower sanitation standards are used to it. Someone from the US where they sterilize the kid toys at the day care would probably end up in a hospital from the same stuff.

Alligator

06-01-2006, 15:32

...Someone from the US where they sterilize the kid toys at the day care would probably end up in a hospital from the same stuff.LOL, I know what you are trying to say here, but my son picks up all kinds of bugs from day care.