Q+A: Defence Minister Ron Mark interviewed by Corin Dann

Defence Minister Ron Mark - ‘whatever we purchase
has to be for military purpose.’

Defence Minister
Ron Mark was on TVNZ 1’s Q+A programme where he defended
the need to spend billions of dollars upgrading New
Zealand’s air force.

‘The fact of the matter is
we have an army, a navy and an air force. They are military.
They require military platforms to carry out their warlike
functions. It is our responsibility as a nation and as a
government to equip and resource and train our defence force
personnel so that when we deploy them into an operational
theatre, they are able to complete their mission
successfully with distinction and come home safely.’

When asked whether that is likely to mean the purchase
of Boeing P-8 Poseidons in order to be compatible with the
US and Australia, the Minister told Corin Dann, ‘We have a
commitment and obligation, should Australia need us, to go
to their defence, for our defence forces to be able to
operate together jointly as they have always done going back
to 1914, 1918. We have to be able to interoperate.’

And ‘we have had too many examples in the past where
procurement decisions have been the wrong decisions, where
we have taken a commercial option only to find that it
doesn’t work there in the military role. In fact, some of
them don’t even work in the civilian role. We’re not
going to cut corners.’

When asked why he spoke out
on China’s growing influence in the Pacific, the minister
said, ‘What we can do is make clear what we think, frank
conversations to their face, not behind their back, and at
the same time, keep doors open, make sure we have good,
solid bilateral relationships with China. Keep our
engagement going within defence.’

And, ‘the
reality of what we are facing, and to ignore the reality of
what we are facing with non-traditional actors seeking to
influence Pacific Island nations would not be to do justice
to any risk assessment, any strategic defence policy
statement.’

Q + AEpisode
17RON
MARKInterviewed by Corin
DannRON Well,
I’m not speaking out. The government has actually made its
views around certain matters very, very¬ well
known–CORIN Not
in a public way like this
before.RON Well, I
think if you look at what the Prime Minister has said, what
the Minister of Foreign Affairs– And let’s be clear –
Defence Force’s strategic policy is based on this
government’s foreign policy. We have signalled already
through Pacific reset our concerns as to how some of our
Pacific nations are
working–CORIN Yes,
but with respect, Minister, I had an interview with the
Foreign Minister, Winston Peters, on this precise issue, and
he didn’t want to name China, whereas your report
has.RON Well, the
Minister of Foreign Affairs has had direct involvement with
this report, as have other government agencies, as had the
Prime Minister’s
office–CORIN I
guess I’m just curious as to what has prompted a–
because language is very important with defence and foreign
affairs. What has prompted this slightly more explicit
language about concerns about what China is doing, for
example, in the South China
Sea?RON The
reality of what we are facing, and to ignore the reality of
what we are facing with non-traditional actors seeking to
influence Pacific Island nations would not be to do justice
to any risk assessment, any strategic defence policy
statement. It is in very much the same way that a New
Zealand government in the past expressed its concerns about
nuclear testing at the time, and they were not shy. I think
it was Norm Kirk. He was not shy to let the French know that
what they were doing was not in New Zealand’s interests
and was not supported by New
Zealand.CORIN So
what can we actually do about it?
Because–RON Well,
we can do what we’re currently doing. We want good
relationships, and we have very good relations. Let me
assure you, my bilateral conversation and discussions with
the Chinese delegate at Shangri-La was frank, honest in both
directions and was warm and, at the end of the day, we spent
quite some time together. What we can do is make clear what
we think, frank conversations to their face, not behind
their back, and at the same time, keep doors open, make sure
we have good, solid bilateral relationships with China. Keep
our engagement going within defence, keep our exchanges
going, welcome into New Zealand, welcome the Chinese
military in in such exercises as the humanitarian disaster
relief exercise which we just completed with them. It is
about dialogue. It is about being open and honest with each
other. It is about where we have concerns, being frank about
those, and it is through doing that, we actually enhance our
relationship.CORIN Okay.
Let’s talk about, then, in terms of what we do as a
Defence Force. You have talked a bit about the need to be
combat ready.
Why?RON Well, at
the end of the day, the reason a nation, any nation, has a
defence force is to protect its sovereign interest, to
protect its territory, to be able to project forward in
those spaces where it is right and proper as part of the
international community to lend assistance to other nations.
For whatever reasons, we are doing that. We have been
deployed in many
places–CORIN But
the issue is it costs money, doesn’t it? There’s a
difference.
RON Well, yes, it
does.CORIN So,
let’s take– You’ve got a purchase to replace the
Orions, which is a purchase coming. You’re due to announce
in the next week or so that decision. Would it be fair to
say if you were to take a less militaristic option with
those planes, it would be a lot cheaper? Whereas if you have
the submarine capability in those planes, it’s going to
cost you a lot more money. Billions for New
Zealanders.RON Well,
you don’t know that, actually, and you don’t know the
cost of taking kit out. But fundamentally maritime patrol,
intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance is a military
function. We have military platforms for our military to
operate for military purposes. We also pick up the
responsibility of protecting our environment, of enabling
other government agencies like Fisheries and Ministry for
the Environment, MPI, Department of Conservation to do the
work they need to do. The wonderful thing about military
capabilities is they deliver a higher level of capability to
NGOs and other government
agencies.CORIN But
it could be the difference between hundreds of millions of
dollars when we’ve got nurses, teachers on strike, looking
for more money, and yet you’re having to go to your
cabinet colleagues and argue for war planes when maybe we
could have planes that don’t need that
capability.RON Name
me an aircraft that would deliver that capability. I mean,
there is a lot of conversation in general terms about
apparently how much money one would save. The fact of the
matter is we have an army, a navy and an air force. They are
military. They require military platforms to carry out their
warlike functions. It is our responsibility as a nation and
as a government to equip and resource and train our defence
force personnel so that when we deploy them into an
operational theatre, they are able to complete their mission
successfully with distinction and come home
safely.CORIN And
how much of it is about our allies and our relationships? In
this report, you make it pretty clear we must acquire assets
that can be relevant to our partners, not just some
also-ran. And that would suggest to me you’re looking, for
example, at the P-8s, the Poseidons, the Boeings. Those are
the ones the Australians and the US use. That’s not an
unreasonable assumption. What’s the point in us having a
plane if it doesn’t work with
them?RON Well,
that’s precisely the question. We are an ally of
Australia. The defence of New Zealand is tied to
Australia’s interests, and the defence of Australia is
tied to New Zealand’s interests. We have a commitment and
obligation, should Australia need us, to go to their
defence, for our defence forces to be able to operate
together jointly as they have always done going back to
1914, 1918. We have to be able to interoperate.
CORIN But the
point I’d come back to is $2.4 billion potentially,
isn’t it, for four
planes?RON But if
you add into that– At the end of the day, part of that
purchase will be for infrastructural reasons as well when
that decision is made and when that decision is advised. So
whatever we purchase has to be for military purpose. But I
think one of the great things about this government – and
I mean all of this government – is that it totally accepts
and understands the need to equip our men and women in
uniform well, to look after them. We have had too many
examples in the past where procurement decisions have been
the wrong decisions, where we have taken a commercial option
only to find that it doesn’t work there in the military
role. In fact, some of them don’t even work in the
civilian role. We’re not going to cut
corners.CORIN You’re
saying, essentially, you’re not going to get something
untried.RON Oh,
no,
absolutely.CORIN Which
means the Japanese planes are out,
right?RON The one
thing the Defence Force has learned, unfortunately the hard
way, is that we have made procurement decisions in the past
that have been a compromise, that have been a shortcut based
on the amount of money available – all these things that
you raise – and they’ve proven to be bad decisions.
Where we have got ourselves into purchasing products that
were not tried, not
tested–CORIN So
this, to me, looks like a critical purchase, these P-8s, for
many reasons. One, because you say we’re not going to cut
corners, but also it sends a very clear signal, doesn’t
it, to our partners and allies that if we go down that road,
and, granted, I get that you haven’t made the final
cabinet decision, but if we go down that road, we are
signalling a closer working relationship, a relationship
where we can work with Australia and the US in a
constructive way. So that signals, to me, quite a critical
shift.RON Well,
and you look at people that we partner with and other
nations. I guess if you were to look at a procurement
decision based on the performance of that platform in
theatre, how many of them exist there? What is the current
historic maintenance record? What is the record of
availability? What is the record of reliability? How have
they performed? Have they underperformed on spec or are they
now exceeding spec? Those are all the questions. If it also
happens it aligns perfectly with interoperability, the
ability to cross-train, to share pilots and crews, then that
is a very good thing, and that fits also with the
procurement policy decisions that were made under the last
term of
government.CORIN So,
just finally before I move on from the planes, what do you
say to New Zealanders who will hear at some point in the
next week a purchase, whatever it is, of billions of dollars
that has to be booked upfront, from my understanding. You
can’t just weave it out over 15 years or whatever. The
accountants want it booked upfront. That’s money that
cannot be spent for nurses and teachers. What do you say to
those people?RON I
think New Zealanders have a broader view than that view. I
think New Zealanders understand that when they send their
sons and their daughters offshore in peacekeeping missions
that are increasingly fraught – whether they’re going to
Mali or South Sudan, whether they’re going to the
Multinational Force & Observers in the Sinai, Iraq or
Afghanistan – New Zealanders want to know that Kiwis, when
they’re placed in danger, have the right equipment to come
home safely. That’s what New Zealanders focus on, and
I’m proud of them. I’m proud of this government for
being bold enough. See, the problem we have had is that when
you have timidity in the ranks of cabinet, such as we’ve
seen in the last nine years, you end up kicking a can down
the road, and then aircraft are either grounded or, at
worse, they fall out of the sky. We are facing reality, and
every New Zealander knows that. We deploy to Papua New
Guinea for a two-day operation, and the aircraft is grounded
for 50% of that time because it fails. The Prime Minister
deploys on Pacific reset, and the crews are working
overnight to get the aircraft operational so it can fly out
the next morning.

CORIN Are you going to
get the $20 billion that was promised? Are you going to get
that?RON We have
an agreement in the coalition agreement with Labour, and I
have no reason to believe that that will not be honoured.
But that is $20 billion over 30 to 35
years–CORIN Well,
it was over 15 years, wasn’t it? That was National’s
plan.RON Well,
you’re looking at capabilities that deliver over 30 to 35
years.CORIN Hang
on. Let’s be clear here. Are you saying that could the
timeframe on that $20 billion be
extended?RON No.
So, the capability plan is out to 2030.
CORIN Sure.RON Correct.
It may well be that under the review that we’re going to
kick off this month, it may well be that we might end up
stretching that to 2035. But the equipment we buy, its whole
of life will be 30 to 35 years. Now, if you take what sounds
like a large sum of money, if it’s $2 billion for a
platform, and factor that over the 35 years of its life,
it’s quite a small amount, really, isn’t
it?CORIN Okay,
let’s put it in another way. You’ve talked as a NZ First
Party, with your NZ First hat on, that you want to see the
amount of spending on Defence doubled to, what, 2%. Similar
to
Australia.RON Yes.CORIN Have
you looked at what that would cost to do that? Have you
lobbied for
that?RON We
don’t need to. We don’t need
to.CORIN So what
are we at at the
moment?RON It’s
not in the coalition
agreement.CORIN So
what are we at at the
moment?RON We’re
under 1%.CORIN And
are we going to get over
1%?RON Well,
it’s not in the coalition agreement. People need to
understand. Corin, you’re a man I respect. Media needs to
understand this is a coalition government with a coalition
agreement. It’s is not the Labour Party manifesto. It is
not the NZ First manifesto. It is the coalition agreement.
NZ First would dearly love to have expenditure up to 2% of
the GDP. Let’s be clear about
that–CORIN But
you ain’t gonna get
it.RON It didn’t
come through in the coalition agreement. It’s not
there.CORIN But
there’s nothing to stop you, for example, asking Defence
to have a look at whether we could bring back the strike
capability for air
force.RON Oh,
yeah, I
know–CORIN Which
you
want.RON Absolutely.
Our party would like that, but that’s not going to happen
in this term and nor am I focused on
that.CORIN Are
there other ways to save money? Could you look, for example,
with our maritime surveillance, at
drones?RON Look,
if you look into the capability plan and if you look at
other papers that were produced by the other government,
that whole compatible capability mentions the potential use
of drones, the potential use of satellites, the potential
use of smaller aircraft designed to meet that lower level of
surveillance you were talking about. These are all things
that are
still–CORIN So
you’re open to drones, open to
satellites?RON The
review of the capability plan which we’re going to kick
off this month will look at all of those avenues, and I
fully expect Defence Force personnel to be talking about
that and what opportunities exist in there.
Transcript
provided by Able. www.able.co.nz

Please find the full transcript attached and you can
watch the interview here.

Q+A, 9-10am
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