That's a very interesting quote from someone who had an insider's viewpoint. I like the distinction he makes between musician and dramatist. If you're good at the latter, you can get away with lacking at the former and that's pretty much, I think, why Zimmer has been able to so successful, as well as being out in front of the changes in movies and musical sensibilities. Zimmer's attitude towards collaboration is actually kind of refreshing and makes a lot of sense. If that means he shares more credit than some composers, so be it. I've never understood why he has been attacked for it. He doesn't try to hide the fact that he collaborates or that he is a lesser musician by the standards of some of the greats. He's still earned his spot for a lot of the reasons outlined.

It tickles me that I thought I had posted a fairly even handed view of who Hans Zimmer appeared to be based on the posted article, both good and not so good, and was immediately placed into a "Zimmer lover" bucket by several people. I guess you're either with them or against them, huh?

Yeah "even-handed" as in attacking another forum member YOR at the end of your post.

For the record, none of those Zimmer defenders (or hypocrits) are addressing the valid issues raised by the conspicuously sycophantic article:

(1) How is playing two notes equal to John Cage and Philip Glass?

(2) Why is Klaus Badelt not mentioned when refering to "the great people"?

(3) What do Zimmer's work ethics have to do with the quality of his music?

(4) How is it that "respecting the power in charge" part of a supposedly artistic exercise? (if you think it's nothing different from the plumbing business, maybe Zimmer should stop boasting himself as an artist?)

(5) Why is "Zimmer never got a score rejected" not considered as indicating he's a Yes! man?

etc.

Instead, those cohorts and hypocrits can only repeat ad hominem attacks and label anyone who offers a valid argument against Zimmer as a troll. How convenient. Perhaps an indication of their intelligence level.

And I've also noticed that these cohorts and hypocrits work in a one-two-stike fashion. First they send the mindless drones like LeHah and First Breath to utter gibberish like "LOL!!!!!!!!" and Godwin law, then if you're worked up by their nonsense, the hypocrits come out and yell "Don't you attack a forum member!"

Yeah "even-handed" as in attacking another forum member YOR at the end of your post.

Calling someone on their negativity is hardly an attack.

Then calling someone Zimmer lover on their positivity of Zimmer is also justified.

Sarcasm aside, how about the numerous posts made by YOR expressing his love of Goldsmith? The Goldsmith conducting Youth Symphony video he posted? Conveniently ignored? Or you're just making a conscious decision to read only his funny pictures jabbing fun at Zimmer and his cohorts?

Hans Zimmer is a talented man. I like some of his music. Of course a collaborative spirit is necessary when scoring a film, and filmmakers' demands do sometimes result in better scores (compare Jerry Goldsmith's first stab at Star Trek: The Motion Picture to his final score).

Nevertheless, if every film composer had cow-towed to filmmakers' whims as much as Hans Zimmer does:

Ben-Hur would have used "Oh Come, All Ye Faithful" in the nativity scene.

Psycho would have been a light jazz score (with no music in the shower scene).

Fantastic Voyage would also have been a jazz score.

Jaws would have sounded like Images.

Star Wars would have had classical music in many scenes.

Witness would have used Pachelbel's Canon in the barn-raising sequence.

- Hans Zimmer is a well-respected, hard-working and inspired film composer

- Hans Zimmer is the end of the film score world

-- Anyone who dares to raise valid points should be ignored or conveniently labelled a troll.

Actually, I think you and I see eye to eye more than you think. The purpose of posting this was to illustrate the system that governs a lot of the end product that comes out. The original post from this fella who worked in RC paints a very vivid picture. Yes, I totally think it's reverential. Would I be doing the same thing if I had earn my bread and butter working full time as a musician in Hollywood? You bet.

it would be interesting to see how many of us who have jobs not in the entertainment industry would take our own high minded advice and tell our bosses to stick it when we were mandated to do something that was outside our own ethics. Those who do I'm sure find themselves in the unemployment line quite often.

Most of us have families, mortgages, kids to feed, bills to pay. It's a naive and romanticized ideal that we can live and die by the sword in the name of higher ethics or morality.

I think that's the best way for me to wrap up my contributions to this thread. It's been interesting but more in a morbid sociological way than a music one.

Okay one last post- you're welcome Erik. And just to prove a point, Erik and I like a lot of the same scores but also disagree on others. I have enormous respect for his opinions nonetheless. Same with Mark Olivarez. It's never been about all having a Woodstock love-fest but respecting and articulating contrary perspectives in a civil manner. [disclaimer- I won't pretend that I haven't acted inappropriately in the history of this forum so when I say this, I'm also reminding myself to be nicer]

Actually, I think you and I see eye to eye more than you think. The purpose of posting this was to illustrate the system that governs a lot of the end product that comes out. The original post from this fella who worked in RC paints a very vivid picture. Yes, I totally think it's reverential. Would I be doing the same thing if I had earn my bread and butter working full time as a musician in Hollywood? You bet.

Which makes it more appropriate for a bystander to comment on the sycophantic nature of that article.

I have nothing against you though. That article provided a good laugh.

I ache for civil discourse around here but if you can't go near a Zimmer thread without the same nonsense invading, then what the hell is the point.

By comparison, I never saw as much uncivilized behavior in a Goldsmith thread.

Perhaps that says something about Goldsmith and Zimmer, and their respective target audience, eh?

Not in the slightest. The vitriol that repeatedly surfaces in Zimmer related threads is unmatched across the forum. As a chief contributor to those threads, where your participation is largely attempts at snide humour or just flat out rudeness (and unabated snarky jibes), surely you see the correlation?

Interestingly enough, I have seen posts of yours that are interesting, where you put aside the desire to rail against Zimmer and produce solid contibutions to discussions - but they are so rare when there's a Zimmer thread you can argue back and forth in. I would much rather trade comments with that other version of you than the one that favours, what appears to me, a giddy lack of civility.

I ache for civil discourse around here but if you can't go near a Zimmer thread without the same nonsense invading, then what the hell is the point.

By comparison, I never saw as much uncivilized behavior in a Goldsmith thread.

Perhaps that says something about Goldsmith and Zimmer, and their respective target audience, eh?

Not in the slightest. The vitriol that repeatedly surfaces in Zimmer related threads is unmatched across the forum. As a chief contributor to those threads, where your participation is largely attempts at snide humour or just flat out rudeness (and unabated snarky jibes), surely you see the correlation?

Interestingly enough, I have seen posts of yours that are interesting, where you put aside the desire to rail against Zimmer and produce solid contibutions to discussions - but they are so rare when there's a Zimmer thread you can argue back and forth in. I would much rather trade comments with that other version of you than the one that favours, what appears to me, a giddy lack of civility.

Maybe it's "vitriol" in the eyes of Zimmer fanatics? For example, you might call YOR's pictures vitriol, but I find them perfectly funny. It's those fanatics who get knee jerky every time their god is not praised.

Perhaps you can try me, a devoted Goldsmith fan, by starting making fun of Goldsmith. See if I get mad at you and bite you like a pitbull. No sir. Every composer can be critised and only those insecure would defend their idol with the zeal of the Zimmer fanatics.

I ache for civil discourse around here but if you can't go near a Zimmer thread without the same nonsense invading, then what the hell is the point.

By comparison, I never saw as much uncivilized behavior in a Goldsmith thread.

Perhaps that says something about Goldsmith and Zimmer, and their respective target audience, eh?

Not in the slightest. The vitriol that repeatedly surfaces in Zimmer related threads is unmatched across the forum. As a chief contributor to those threads, where your participation is largely attempts at snide humour or just flat out rudeness (and unabated snarky jibes), surely you see the correlation?

Interestingly enough, I have seen posts of yours that are interesting, where you put aside the desire to rail against Zimmer and produce solid contibutions to discussions - but they are so rare when there's a Zimmer thread you can argue back and forth in. I would much rather trade comments with that other version of you than the one that favours, what appears to me, a giddy lack of civility.

Maybe it's "vitriol" in the eyes of Zimmer fanatics? For example, you might call YOR's pictures vitriol, but I find them perfectly funny. It's those fanatics who get knee jerky every time their god is not praised.

Perhaps you can try me, a devoted Goldsmith fan, by starting making fun of Goldsmith. See if I get mad at you and bite you like a pitbull. No sir. Every composer can be critised and only those insecure would defend their idol with the zeal of the Zimmer fanatics.

Case in point. No everyone who disapproves of your posts is a "Zimmer fanatic'. It's approaches like that which reduce your level of credibility. Dismissing peoples reactions to you as fanboy reactions is silly (as dismissing all Zimmer criticism as wrong as well). It is often not what is said, but how it is said, and not tolerating that is perfectly reasonable. I am sick and tired of it, not because all the points are invalid, but because the approach lacks civility and is brimmed with snark and unecessary rudeness.

I have no desire to 'test' your ability to take Goldmsith criticism - I can see your tenor by how you participate in threads like this one. You had a post in the "Why you STILL like soundtracks (film scores)' thread that was great. Become that person in threads like this and you will find that those you dismiss as Zimmer fanatics (which I suppose includes me since I am trying to rid these threads of such 'vitriol'), are willing to engage you in civil, reasonable debate.

As for Yor's images - I doubt anyone could frame them as vitriol - but in tandem with his persistent appearances mocking Zimmer (and those that enjoy his music) in Zimmer threads (and sometimes unrelated threads) become tiresome.

Despite all being written in this thread, I think the most important thing said is by Elmer Bernstein.

"The dirty little secret is that we're not musicians - we're dramatists."

I think way to many people on this forum see this. Composing filmscores is first of all the art of conveying emotions. The melody comes in the second place (and than still after harmony, arrangement, rhythm etc. Let alone, dare I say it - yes I do, musical originality.)

Despite all being written in this thread, I think the most important thing said is by Elmer Bernstein.

"The dirty little secret is that we're not musicians - we're dramatists."

I think way to many people on this forum see this. Composing filmscores is first of all the art of conveying emotions. The melody comes in the second place (and than still after harmony, arrangement, rhythm etc. Let alone, dare I say it - yes I do, musical originality.)

And on the other hand, Goldsmith hated being called a "film" composer while aspiring to be a "real" composer like Mozart.

Not to belittle Elmer's works, but perhaps there is a correlation between him praising Zimmer and the above quote of his?