Yes, I hate it.++++++++++++++++++These is part of a discussion I read.According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling

I am currently editing the Mahāsi Sayādaw's discourse on the Cūlavedalla Sutta where he says:

In this Buddha’s dispensation, a bhikkhu reflects and yearns: “At the present time, Noble Ones are seeking refuge in the noble Dhamma. When will I be able to fully acquire this noble Dhamma?” A person who is longing for the noblest Dhamma or Arahantship for final liberation is said to be feeling sorry and dejected because of his longing for a desired thing. If a meditator expects to achieve the noble path of Arahantship within a month — or at least within two or three months — fails to achieve his objective as expected, he or she would probably reflect: “Others have attained the path, whereas I have not had a glimpse of that noble Dhamma though I have been striving hard.” As doubt arises, he or she may soliloquise: “Is there any possibility for me to attain the path?” Under such circumstances, dejection and sorrow might arise. Such a feeling of dejection (domanassa) is painful feeling rested upon by the latent tendency to aversion. However, such feelings are not that kind of dhamma that should be rejected because it has arisen dependant on the expectation to achieve the noble Dhamma.

Elsewhere, he refers to this as wholesome sorrow.

So, although domanassa is an unwholesome mental state, in this case it leads to the meditator striving harder to achieve the goal, so disappointment and dejection forms a basis for the development of wholesome mental factors leading to the attainment of the path.

Yes, I hate it.That quote was from me.I was joking. Should have put a smiley there maybe. But smileys make some jokes look so uncool. I guess it's true what the Abhidhamma says, if it says so, that the citta arising at the moment of mindfulness, which takes whatever previous momentary citta as an object, whether that has been pleasent or not, cannot be unpleasent. (If you can read the Abhidhamma, then you can probably also decipher this awful sentence. )The moment of seeing things clearly is always pleasent. Even if the things to be seen were unpleasent at first sight. Or I'm not really able to express it. But it seems true to me.I guess I should better not discuss Abhidhamma. But I just started reading it, coincidentally. Looks interesting.

robertk wrote:According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling

Yes, I think that is quite correct. kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

robertk wrote:According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling

Yes, I think that is quite correct. kind regards,

Ben

I don't understand this. Sati can have an unpleasant sensation or state as an object. Is it refereing to sati with samatha?

Happy, at rest,may all beings be happy at heart.Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart.

Let no one deceive anotheror despise anyone anywhere,or through anger or irritationwish for another to suffer.— Sn 1.8

In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation

robertk wrote:In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation

Maybe I am operating with an incorrect definition of sati and samatha. It seems to me you need sati (bare awarness?) and samatha (concentration?) to make dosa fall away. Does sati in this sense imply some level of absorbsion in the object? Or is it such a brief moment that I don't notice unless I am concentrated?

EDIT: I just noticed this post refers to Abidhamma, which I know little about. This may be the source of my confusion.

Happy, at rest,may all beings be happy at heart.Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart.

Let no one deceive anotheror despise anyone anywhere,or through anger or irritationwish for another to suffer.— Sn 1.8

robertk wrote:In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation

Please provide a citation in support of this, thanks.

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Yes, I hate it.++++++++++++++++++These is part of a discussion I read.According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling

Robert, I was using "being mindful" above in the sense of paying attention to painful feeling. It seems again to be a question of how "sati" is defined - is there a definition in the Abiddhamma?

robertk wrote:In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation

Interesting. So does this mean that sati and dosa cannot be present at the same time? And does it mean that if one were able to maintain sati continuously, then dosa could not re-ocurr?

robertk wrote:In the case of sati taking for example dosa, aversion , as an object, immediatly that sati arises the dosa falls away momentarily. It may come back but at the moment of sati arising it has gone. This is sometimes called tadanga nirodha, momentary cessation

Interesting. So does this mean that sati and dosa cannot be present at the same time? And does it mean that if one were able to maintain sati continuously, then dosa could not re-ocurr?

Yes that is correct.The only time when sati is continuously present for longer periods of time is during absorption in actual Jhana where the object is one of the 40 objects for Samantha. At this time there are no sense door objects there are only the uninterrupted series of Jhana cittas: hence no sound, no bodily feeling etc. that is why before the Buddha came the wise ascetics realized the danger of the sense objects, which almost invariably condition lobes or dosa of some degree, and saw Jhana as an escape. It was temporary but the best they could do.

During the development of vipassana there are processes of vitthi cittas which arise with sati and panna ( wisdom) and take actual realities as object. But this is only for very brief periods although it may become more frequent if wisdom is growing.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion … ...He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.John Stuart Mill

robertk wrote:According to Abhidhamma it is impossible for any mindstate associated with sati to have unpleasant feeling. It can only come with either pleasant or neutral feeling. Subsequent and preceeding mindstates could of course be with dosa and have unpleasant feeling

Yes, I think that is quite correct. kind regards,

Ben

I don't understand this. Sati can have an unpleasant sensation or state as an object. Is it refereing to sati with samatha?

It is the object itself which is either an unpleasant sensation or associated with the unpleasant sensation - not sati.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

kirk5a wrote:For those of us trying to understand the view of sati being presented here, it would be helpful to have specific reference(s) in support, as per this subforum's guidelines.

Yes, I agree and apologize.I will dig out my copy of Abhidhammattha Sanghaha (Bhikkhu Bodhi edition) a little later today.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725