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Amir wrote:This is the clearest indication of TMJ connection to 'MS' type symptoms.

They are symptoms of numerous conditions, hardly exclusive to MS and hardly worth promoting treatment of such symptoms as a cure for MS as you did below.

I regret if there is any implication by me that the TMJ symptom is exclusive to MS. It is however always present in all the patients I see whether they present with MS, ME, CFS or FM or many other conditions.
This is only one indicator amongst many for one to come to a proper diagnosis.

The trouble arises when you state something as fact, that is clearly not. I can see how that may "trouble" you.

You can quote a thousand studies discrediting an alternative form of treatment. The fact of the matter is that this protocol helps show where the root of the problem lies. All my recovering patients will confirm this. Your reference and desperate desire to persuade patients otherwise is only making more and more patients to check for this anomaly and get out of the clutches of 'MS'.

I am NOT discrediting an "alternative" treatment. The palpitating of the lateral pterygoid muscle was something you would of learnt in dentist school and hence now hold so dearly. It was through similar channels of research and investigations and testing that the technique was probably introduced and thereby included in your training. However, the point you appear to be missing is that the medical field now appears to have learnt they were wrong. If I was a treating physician, I would be reading these studies to see if they hold any weight, instead of summarily dismissing them because they disagree with you. Am I the only one here that can see the irony here? You are dismissing this information in the same way you think the rest of the medical field is dismissing your statements/treatments.

Amir wrote:You can quote a thousand studies discrediting an alternative form of treatment. The fact of the matter is that this protocol helps show where the root of the problem lies. All my recovering patients will confirm this. Your reference and desperate desire to persuade patients otherwise is only making more and more patients to check for this anomaly and get out of the clutches of 'MS'.

CureOrBust wrote: I am NOT discrediting an "alternative" treatment. The palpitating of the lateral pterygoid muscle was something you would of learnt in dentist school and hence now hold so dearly. It was through similar channels of research and investigations and testing that the technique was probably introduced and thereby included in your training. However, the point you appear to be missing is that the medical field now appears to have learnt they were wrong. If I was a treating physician, I would be reading these studies to see if they hold any weight, instead of summarily dismissing them because they disagree with you. Am I the only one here that can see the irony here? You are dismissing this information in the same way you think the rest of the medical field is dismissing your statements/treatments.

You can laugh as much as you want.
I am not aware of anyone dismissing my treatment. I never learnt this in dental school. I wish I had. I learnt it from your countryman Dr Robert Walker formerly an American who teaches orthodontists round the world about TMJ dysfunction and body symmetry and very many other great minds mostly American. Many Australians will be wise looking up his website. 20 years plus of daily experience also is very educational instead of touching the subject in a "scientific paper" momentarily.

First of all, to the OP trying to tell the good news about his wife’s recovery and continued improvements, thank you EJC. This is wonderful news to hear that symptoms attributed to MS (and therefore incurable) have in fact responded and resolved in response to Emma’s current treatment. Congratulations for your relentless research and for discovering the causes of Emma’s symptoms and getting her the treatments to successfully deal with them.

This news should be celebrated - not attacked and vilified. If you do not want to hear or learn about people getting symptom relief and regaining some quality of life, then don’t read this thread! The only reason I can think of is that you must be on someone’s payroll. How much do you get for dismissing holistic medicine?

People are quick to paraphrase the MS Society in saying they only condone ‘evidence based medicine’.

I would like to see the evidence of what MS actually is and what causes it.
I would also like to see the evidence that MS is an autoimmune disease because ALL the medicines developed for MS assume it is and modify the immune system. Where is the evidence in orthodox MS treatment? There isn’t any!

NHE wrote:

Amir wrote:This is the clearest indication of TMJ connection to 'MS' type symptoms.

They are symptoms of numerous conditions, hardly exclusive to MS and hardly worth promoting treatment of such symptoms as a cure for MS as you did below.

Amir wrote:Readers need to know the workings behind these posts so that they can find out why they continue to be sick and can find no cure

NHE

I have my own proof too. I was diagnosed 25 years ago with RRMS, in 2005 I was upgraded to SPMS (more meaningless labels - there is no biological marker to separate MS types) and was progressing steadily until I found the cause of my particular symptoms after many years of research. I discovered that my constant headaches, foggy head and slow cognition were due to severe CCSVI which was resolved by venous angioplasty. My remaining symptoms turned out to have physiological causes. My asymmetrical jaw and cervical spine were causing frequent L’Hermitte’s sign which was present through all the years since diagnosis. Three months into Dr Amir’s treatment and it had completely disappeared. Gone - not placebo or remission - It has vanished along with patches of numbness, neuralgia, pins and needles. I have had no new symptoms since 2012. Ooh and guess what? Brain lesions are ‘symptoms of numerous conditions, hardly exclusive to MS’ and ‘hardly worth promoting treatment of such symptoms with disease modifying drugs as a cure for MS’

My MS symptoms have now all gone thanks to Dr Amir and a few other maverick doctors who have dared to look outside the [pill] box. Diz (my excellent physiotherapist at QED) is helping me to walk again. I have already managed to gain enough strength and balance to be able to walk with crutches. With a bit more hard work, I will get there.

Amir wrote:This is the clearest indication of TMJ connection to 'MS' type symptoms.

They are symptoms of numerous conditions, hardly exclusive to MS and hardly worth promoting treatment of such symptoms as a cure for MS as you did below.

Amir wrote:Readers need to know the workings behind these posts so that they can find out why they continue to be sick and can find no cure

NHE

At no point has Amir suggested these symptoms and conditions are exclusive to MS, to the contrary he notes how many syndromes and conditions appear to have very similar symptoms.

Where in the sentence you have quoted above does Amir suggest or state any of the symptoms are specific to MS. Have you made an assumption that is what he "means" simply by the fact it's posted on an MS forum? A lot of this assumption seems to be taking place.

Amir isn't searching for a "Cure for MS" or CFS, or ME or Migraines or many other of the syndromes and conditions that display these similar symptoms; he's questioning the validity of the original diagnosis or in the extreme the entire notion of the condition itself and is searching for a cure for each individual patient. This allows the patient to be treated specifically for symptoms with the aim to eradicate them. Is that so wrong? Isn't that in fact the very thing that sufferers of most chronic conditions or syndromes crave?

It seems to be some sort of swearword or "quack" word to use the word CURE anywhere on this forum. Why is that? Why would people not want to look for a cure? What if the the first part of the "cure" is a realisation that the original diagnosis could in fact be wrong or fundamentally flawed?

This forums very existence is to encourage patients and anyone that would listen in the medical world try and think out of the box, try and help people feel better, or the holy grail, find the cause of the problem that they have. The first step is often to lose the label that's attached to you. I started conversations on this subject in the CCSVI forum as Emma had undergone that treatment and the TMJ issues seems to be a logical progression of this, infact it's not far removed from the direction that uprightdoc has taken by looking at skeletal misalignments and associated problems.

If that's the case why are selected people being openly vilified and receiving moderator warnings from you of all people for openly posting in this particular thread their ideas?

Amir wrote:This is the clearest indication of TMJ connection to 'MS' type symptoms.

They are symptoms of numerous conditions, hardly exclusive to MS and hardly worth promoting treatment of such symptoms as a cure for MS as you did below.

Amir wrote:Readers need to know the workings behind these posts so that they can find out why they continue to be sick and can find no cure

NHE

At no point has Amir suggested these symptoms and conditions are exclusive to MS, to the contrary he notes how many syndromes and conditions appear to have very similar symptoms.

Where in the sentence you have quoted above does Amir suggest or state any of the symptoms are specific to MS. Have you made an assumption that is what he "means" simply by the fact it's posted on an MS forum? A lot of this assumption seems to be taking place.

Amir isn't searching for a "Cure for MS" or CFS, or ME or Migraines or many other of the syndromes and conditions that display these similar symptoms; he's questioning the validity of the original diagnosis or in the extreme the entire notion of the condition itself and is searching for a cure for each individual patient. This allows the patient to be treated specifically for symptoms with the aim to eradicate them. Is that so wrong? Isn't that in fact the very thing that sufferers of most chronic conditions or syndromes crave?

It seems to be some sort of swearword or "quack" word to use the word CURE anywhere on this forum. Why is that? Why would people not want to look for a cure? What if the the first part of the "cure" is a realisation that the original diagnosis could in fact be wrong or fundamentally flawed?

This forums very existence is to encourage patients and anyone that would listen in the medical world try and think out of the box, try and help people feel better, or the holy grail, find the cause of the problem that they have. The first step is often to lose the label that's attached to you. I started conversations on this subject in the CCSVI forum as Emma had undergone that treatment and the TMJ issues seems to be a logical progression of this, infact it's not far removed from the direction that uprightdoc has taken by looking at skeletal misalignments and associated problems.

If that's the case why are selected people being openly vilified and receiving moderator warnings from you of all people for openly posting in this particular thread their ideas?

Please let me comment.

I read the statement from NHE to mean exactly what EJC also stated: The symptoms of MS are similar to the symptoms found in many other syndromes and conditions. No one can list symptoms that are found only with MS (MS diagnosis would be so much simpler if there were).

Frankly, I hope EVERYONE is searching for a cure to our conditions, but it has always been my opinion that, until the cause has been found, there can be no cure. In the meantime, I am grateful for this website which allows us to share information we read and hypotheses we are testing. We need to practice patience and tolerance – none of us is in the situation we want to be in.

EJC wrote:
At no point has Amir suggested these symptoms and conditions are exclusive to MS, to the contrary he notes how many syndromes and conditions appear to have very similar symptoms.

lyndacarol wrote:Please let me comment.

I read the statement from NHE to mean exactly what EJC also stated: The symptoms of MS are similar to the symptoms found in many other syndromes and conditions. No one can list symptoms that are found only with MS (MS diagnosis would be so much simpler if there were).

Frankly, I hope EVERYONE is searching for a cure to our conditions, but it has always been my opinion that, until the cause has been found, there can be no cure. In the meantime, I am grateful for this website which allows us to share information we read and hypotheses we are testing. We need to practice patience and tolerance – none of us is in the situation we want to be in.

Well put. I have a lot more evidence to show if I get a constructive feedback. I am being prevented from furthering my input on this forum by relentless distractions. We have been working on it for a long time. Many patients have recovered others have done extremely well while some have not deteriorated any more. Their condition has been arrested. Any support and constructive criticism from the regular posters on this forum will be most welcome.

I read the statement from NHE to mean exactly what EJC also stated: The symptoms of MS are similar to the symptoms found in many other syndromes and conditions. No one can list symptoms that are found only with MS (MS diagnosis would be so much simpler if there were).

Frankly, I hope EVERYONE is searching for a cure to our conditions, but it has always been my opinion that, until the cause has been found, there can be no cure. In the meantime, I am grateful for this website which allows us to share information we read and hypotheses we are testing. We need to practice patience and tolerance – none of us is in the situation we want to be in.

Thanks Lynda, this thread was designed to document the progress of my wife's treatment over an extended period of time on a forum that I considered open minded.

It's really frustrating when it's sent off at a tangent this way. The forum moderation both in the thread and by Private Message is very wide of the mark on this occasion and frankly disappointing.

Amir wrote:I learnt it from your countryman Dr Robert Walker formerly an American who teaches orthodontists round the world about TMJ dysfunction and body symmetry and very many other great minds mostly American. Many Australians will be wise looking up his website. 20 years plus of daily experience also is very educational instead of touching the subject in a "scientific paper" momentarily.

Now you have thrown a curve ball. You previously refered me to a Dr. Gerald H. Smith residing in America when I asked you for a local (to me) dentist, but now you tell me of an actual Australian who taught you? is this the guy?http://exceptionaldentalcourses.com/den ... uctors.asp
Is this the website you are referring to, or is there another one?

EJC wrote:It seems to be some sort of swearword or "quack" word to use the word CURE anywhere on this forum. Why is that? Why would people not want to look for a cure? What if the the first part of the "cure" is a realisation that the original diagnosis could in fact be wrong or fundamentally flawed?

A "Cure" implies total reversal of symptoms. Yes, I know that it could also simply mean stopping progression. And on this forum, it would also be required to be backed by scientific based evidence and methods, which this threads topic is lacking.

EJC wrote:If that's the case why are selected people being openly vilified

Its good to see you are noting how I am being treated within this thread.

EJC wrote:and receiving moderator warnings from you of all people for openly posting in this particular thread their ideas?

I have not seen or received a moderator warning, however, I would fathom a guess that it is because someone has broken the rules of the forum. By posting on this forum, you are agreeing to the rules of this forum, not what you think they should be. Just as by living in the UK you have to follow the laws and rules of that country. Its a simple concept. Its not a free-for-all.

CureOrBust wrote:A "Cure" implies total reversal of symptoms. Yes, I know that it could also simply mean stopping progression. And on this forum, it would also be required to be backed by scientific based evidence and methods, which this threads topic is lacking.

What evidence do you require?

Please define what "evidence" I or Dr Amir, or Jen could post on this thread that would appease your never ending search for evidence before you believe anything. I don't mean throwing out the generic "I want scientific proof" statement over and over again, specifically what exactly do you want to see? What could possibly be posted on this thread that you wouldn't tear to pieces in minutia?

This thread is being compiled as evidence, I'm documenting my wife's progress over years of treatment through CCSVI then TMJ treatment, treatment is still a work in progress but Emma is improving on a weekly basis. On that basis by one of the definitions of the word you gave above, it would not be unreasonable to say Emma is cured surely? Even if it was nothing more than stopping progression, not only have we stopped progression, we're starting to reverse Emma's physical disabilities and she's learning to walk again, debilitating neuralgia has been eradicated (how do I prove that to you?), fatigue has been substantially reduced allowing Emma to lead and almost full normal day, headaches have been eradicated (How do I prove this to you?)

How can I provide you evidence of this? Would weekly videos suffice? If I did post weekly videos would you claim they were made up or were not in fact my wife but an able bodied person standing in for her just for the purposes of this thread?

Would you claim the evidence is not based on a blind study and there is no control person which to provide a direct comparison.

Allow me to document my wife's treatment and progress please without the constant trolling. Many people are genuinely interested in her progress even if you aren't. If you wish to continue to discuss proof requirements or theory with Dr Amir, please start your own thread or contact him by private message, but stop trolling this thread please.

One can also make searches under:
Facial pain, jaw ache, Trigeminal Neuralgia, tinnitus, sinnusitis, deafness, tooth grinding, bruxism, dental extraction orthodontics, wisdom teeth extractions and you will find countless pointers right on this very forum.

A small diagnostic tool is the palpation of the lateral pterygoid muscle. I am not going to get stuck on this and deny the readers of this forum further insights derived from treating very many 'MS' patients

Other tests would include an examination of the type of bite, jaw function and limitations, tooth attrition, orthodontic and skeletal class, dental extraction history, the maxillary level and cant, palpation of all the muscles around the head eg: the Trapezius, Sterno-mastoid, Masseter, Temporalis and the Mylohyoid. One would look to see which side is more painful and stiffer. The symmetry of the Atlas vertebrae, scoliosis, the symmetry of the eyes, ears, and maxilla and their relation to each other, cranial distortions, the shoulder, rib cage and hip levels, foot arch collapse, the short leg phenomenon etc. etc.

Any imbalance on the front of the face causes serious imbalance on the neck vertebrae and consequently on all the muscles supporting the jaw and the head. It also causes compensatory distortions of the lower spine and hips. Nerves emanating from the spine give rise to various neuralgic pains, numbness, and other disabilities. Experience shows that these symptoms are unrelated to 'brain lesions' because they usually resolve rapidly.

Readers will be well advised to look for all these additional pointers and seek appropriate treatment.

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