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Sorry it is just too much to read through at this point. Just wanna say I agree with OP. Some arena models could be nice. The GW1 tournaments were quite alright. You would win and go up a bracket, win the third round in a 3 way and you get a chest with reward.

But overall, when I play an MMO, I am not looking for fair setup battles. I want virtual world conflicts as they could occur in real life ie unfair but so rewarding when you come out on top. Sometimes that means just escaping the conflict. A place for manhunts etc. If I want something setup and predictable I go play DOTA 2 or Forge or BF3 or CS or some RTS. There are plenty awesome games that offer that experience. And no mmo arena comes close to the level of said games imo.

You could say Darkfall offers what players like OP and myself want, but truth is there is not much choice. And 'themepark' games evolve much faster. Look at how amazing GW2 has become. Awesome themepark MMO. But not what we are looking for. Look at Darkfall and.. well it offers nice features but I think we can agree the quality is not comparible to GW2 when looking at production value.

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Originally posted by klerken

its actually very simple in my very own opinion,

its pretty much the only way to keep pvp competive and "fair" since all is on equal ground (when they have geared up) and your 100 % confidence is just pulled outta your a** since games like CoD and all the different mobas don't offer much reward except the joy of outplaying your opponents

if you wan't to stick to MMO's i guess wow high ranking arenas and GW2 battleground or what its called is still thriving despite people being geared already and just playing to show how skilled they are.

Simple answer: It's hugely appealing to kids/teens who haven't learned the lesson yet that life isn't fair (so they expect their games to be, too).

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Originally posted by dreamscaper

Originally posted by klerken

its actually very simple in my very own opinion,

its pretty much the only way to keep pvp competive and "fair" since all is on equal ground (when they have geared up) and your 100 % confidence is just pulled outta your a** since games like CoD and all the different mobas don't offer much reward except the joy of outplaying your opponents

if you wan't to stick to MMO's i guess wow high ranking arenas and GW2 battleground or what its called is still thriving despite people being geared already and just playing to show how skilled they are.

Simple answer: It's hugely appealing to kids/teens who haven't learned the lesson yet that life isn't fair (so they expect their games to be, too).

On the flip side, unfair PvP is for kids/teens with no skill that would prefer to outgear/outlevel their opponent and crush noobs all day like a bunch of little bullies.

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Originally posted by dreamscaper

Originally posted by klerken

its actually very simple in my very own opinion,

its pretty much the only way to keep pvp competive and "fair" since all is on equal ground (when they have geared up) and your 100 % confidence is just pulled outta your a** since games like CoD and all the different mobas don't offer much reward except the joy of outplaying your opponents

if you wan't to stick to MMO's i guess wow high ranking arenas and GW2 battleground or what its called is still thriving despite people being geared already and just playing to show how skilled they are.

Simple answer: It's hugely appealing to kids/teens who haven't learned the lesson yet that life isn't fair (so they expect their games to be, too).

I find it quite the opposite. Arena PvPers are far more mature than open world PvPers in my experience. One wants a challenge, the other wants to grief people and be a nuisance. Which sounds more mature?

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Originally posted by ShakyMoPfff Have you played any mobas or other arena like games?

More mature my arse

I mentioned above that I have played LoL off and on. Never had the same childish behaviour that I have seen in open world PvP MMOs (where you get mail wishing that you get ass-cancer because you managed to beat two people that tried to stealth gank you).

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Please help me understand the appeal for such a terrible PvP concept...

#1. Everyone looks the same (Everyone of the same class will ultimately be wearing the same PvP gear).

#2. Redundant Gameplay - In order to obtain PvP gear, you must play the same few instances over and over and over again.

#3. What is "Massively Multiplayer" about 10 vs 10 Team Deathmatch, Domination, or Capture the Flag?

#4. Since there are so few instances, the best and obvious strategies are learned by all within the first month. Thus, gameplay becomes a rinse and repeat process.

#5. There is literally zero element of surprise. Everyone is pre-buffed and expecting combat. Everyone knows where the opposition is coming from. Everyone is ready. There is no such thing as an ambush or grand escape. There is no such thing as infiltration.

#6. Immersion Breaking... especially with concepts such as Huttball. Arena PvP ultimately makes the MMO feel dumbed down for children.

Instanced PvP is simply Developer Laziness. Instead of actually thinking about how to make a worldly and mature PvP system, developers decide that it's cheaper and easier to make these small instanced PvP zones. They know people will play anything for some type of item reward.

I say this with 100% confidence: If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds / Arenas, nobody would play them. Why? Because they are boring.

What is the point of sports in general. Every team member wears the same outfit, it's always played on the same field and there is no element of surprise?

I say this with 100% confidence: If rewards were removed from PVE questing and dungeons, nobody would play them!

What people wear in PvP isn't a team uniform- it's just the best gear in the game that they currently have access to; there is not an MMO developer out there that is going to say "We are only releasing one PvP map because we want this to be the competitive standard!" yet every football field is pretty much the same; and anybody who doesn't think there is an element of surprise in sports doesn't watch it. Every sport has trick plays.

Arena PvP is good because it lets people get into the action fast. It's bad because it lets developers throw a room with a flag in it and a palatte swap of raid gear together and then they call it a day. The truth is that without arenas and warzones, most games wouldn't really bother with PvP because simply creating a server with a player kill = true setting globally ends up creating two different versions of the game down the road or one ends up suffering at the expense of the other.

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Please help me understand the appeal for such a terrible PvP concept...

#1. Everyone looks the same (Everyone of the same class will ultimately be wearing the same PvP gear).

#2. Redundant Gameplay - In order to obtain PvP gear, you must play the same few instances over and over and over again.

#3. What is "Massively Multiplayer" about 10 vs 10 Team Deathmatch, Domination, or Capture the Flag?

#4. Since there are so few instances, the best and obvious strategies are learned by all within the first month. Thus, gameplay becomes a rinse and repeat process.

#5. There is literally zero element of surprise. Everyone is pre-buffed and expecting combat. Everyone knows where the opposition is coming from. Everyone is ready. There is no such thing as an ambush or grand escape. There is no such thing as infiltration.

#6. Immersion Breaking... especially with concepts such as Huttball. Arena PvP ultimately makes the MMO feel dumbed down for children.

Instanced PvP is simply Developer Laziness. Instead of actually thinking about how to make a worldly and mature PvP system, developers decide that it's cheaper and easier to make these small instanced PvP zones. They know people will play anything for some type of item reward.

I say this with 100% confidence: If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds / Arenas, nobody would play them. Why? Because they are boring.

Agreed. PvP has died in MMOs since WoW introduced pvp arenas. Lets hope these sandbox indie companies can resurrect the genre with real MMO pvp, not same old instance shit that we are now days used to.

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Please help me understand the appeal for such a terrible PvP concept...

#1. Everyone looks the same (Everyone of the same class will ultimately be wearing the same PvP gear).

#2. Redundant Gameplay - In order to obtain PvP gear, you must play the same few instances over and over and over again.

#3. What is "Massively Multiplayer" about 10 vs 10 Team Deathmatch, Domination, or Capture the Flag?

#4. Since there are so few instances, the best and obvious strategies are learned by all within the first month. Thus, gameplay becomes a rinse and repeat process.

#5. There is literally zero element of surprise. Everyone is pre-buffed and expecting combat. Everyone knows where the opposition is coming from. Everyone is ready. There is no such thing as an ambush or grand escape. There is no such thing as infiltration.

#6. Immersion Breaking... especially with concepts such as Huttball. Arena PvP ultimately makes the MMO feel dumbed down for children.

Instanced PvP is simply Developer Laziness. Instead of actually thinking about how to make a worldly and mature PvP system, developers decide that it's cheaper and easier to make these small instanced PvP zones. They know people will play anything for some type of item reward.

I say this with 100% confidence: If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds / Arenas, nobody would play them. Why? Because they are boring.

Your opinion on this topic varies quite a lot depedning on who you talk to. For me, I like all forms of PvP. Speaking to what you bring up is simple.

People like Arena's for exactly the reasons you stated. There is no ganking, no well if I had this buff, none of that. It is an even playing field where everyone understands their place and if they all play their position well, they will likely win. You call it immature, and for the life of me I don't understand that, I call it good healthy competition.

Also, fighting peopel your level, wearing the same gear with the same bufss takes what a lot of MMO players do nbot have: Real Skill. All things being even, skill is what carries the day.

Speaking directly tto the immature and laziness bit of your post, how hard is it to gank un-suspecting players? I argue that it takes far more skill to jump into an arena and stand toe to toe with someoone that is prepared than it is to jump an unsuspecting (and lets be honest, usually lower level than you /wink) person out in the open areas?

Also, I bet it takes for more coding to put that arena system together than it does to let people have at each other in an already realized world.

On the other hand I do agree with you on the grinding part. I believe that is someone wants to level by purely doing PvP they should be able to. The PvP crew should not have to grind PvE content to compete and vice versa.

As far as rewards being removed, I play all manner of "arena" pvp, Triebs ascend, BO2, WoW arena, etc etc, and if you took the rewards away, I would still do it. why? Because I love going against a skilled, prepared opponent and coming out on top, or at least learnign something when I lose.

At the end of the day, to each their own I get a lot of people that enjoy ganking, and griefing lower level players hate arena because they really can't do well at it. They have never really had to hone thier skills to be good, just good enough. Not to say I have never ganked a lowbie, but I much prefer fighting people I know have thew ability to beat me.

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I always play on PvP servers and much prefer to look for fights out in the world rather than participate in instanced pvp. What I really dislike is the WoW approach of neutering your character in the name of balance. My characters carry free action potions. My engineers have all the fun gadgets. My leatherworkers have (had) drums of panic. My paladin knows lay on hands. Nope, not in arenas. It just feels to me like i'm not actually playing my character, but instead playing a generic template of my class.

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Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by ShakyMoPfff Have you played any mobas or other arena like games?

More mature my arse

I mentioned above that I have played LoL off and on. Never had the same childish behaviour that I have seen in open world PvP MMOs (where you get mail wishing that you get ass-cancer because you managed to beat two people that tried to stealth gank you).

LoL's community is quite unique (thank goodness). By no means does it represent "arena games" in any way.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky

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I know people who play MMOs PRIMARILY because they want a sports-like environment to compete on fair and even terms with other players.

I understand those players - and I can easily recognise why it's fun FOR THEM.

Personally, I came into MMOs because I'm looking for a "virtual world" in which to immerse myself and live out some fantasies that can't happen in actual life.

So, when MMOs started introducing arenas and battlegrounds - I was very much against the idea, because I feel it's completely counter to immersion and only serves to create a "mini-game" within my virtual fantasy.

However, I've come to accept that other players aren't necessarily like me, and indeed - it seems the vast majority are nothing like me at all.

They play MMOs for completely different reasons - and I have to accept that.

PvP, to me, is only really interesting when there's something at stake - and I'm not just talking about winning or losing. I want to fear death - and I want to make a name for myself in battle, not in some instanced area as some kind of anonymous player that might as well be a really good AI.

As for balance, I don't think it's possible to ever balance PvP in a non-structured environment. So, the key for the developers is to create a ruleset that discourages exploitation and meaningless ganking.

I've yet to see a game that seriously tries to "measure" the odds of any given battle - and reward players accordingly. I've yet to see a game that's smart about how to let players who're NOT into open world PvP avoid it without negative consequence.

Most games that have full loot PvP lack the world immersion part of the equation. They fail to create a content-rich world with strong stories. Mostly because they're plagued by low budgets and small developer teams.

I'm waiting for a game that has both - and something like ArcheAge might be the ticket. We'll see when it gets released in NA/EU.

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I know people who play MMOs PRIMARILY because they want a sports-like environment to compete on fair and even terms with other players.

I understand those players - and I can easily recognise why it's fun FOR THEM.

Personally, I came into MMOs because I'm looking for a "virtual world" in which to immerse myself and live out some fantasies that can't happen in actual life.

So, when MMOs started introducing arenas and battlegrounds - I was very much against the idea, because I feel it's completely counter to immersion and only serves to create a "mini-game" within my virtual fantasy.

However, I've come to accept that other players aren't necessarily like me, and indeed - it seems the vast majority are nothing like me at all.

They play MMOs for completely different reasons - and I have to accept that.

PvP, to me, is only really interesting when there's something at stake - and I'm not just talking about winning or losing. I want to fear death - and I want to make a name for myself in battle, not in some instanced area as some kind of anonymous player that might as well be a really good AI.

As for balance, I don't think it's possible to ever balance PvP in a non-structured environment. So, the key for the developers is to create a ruleset that discourages exploitation and meaningless ganking.

I've yet to see a game that seriously tries to "measure" the odds of any given battle - and reward players accordingly. I've yet to see a game that's smart about how to let players who're NOT into open world PvP avoid it without negative consequence.

Most games that have full loot PvP lack the world immersion part of the equation. They fail to create a content-rich world with strong stories. Mostly because they're plagued by low budgets and small developer teams.

I'm waiting for a game that has both - and something like ArcheAge might be the ticket. We'll see when it gets released in NA/EU.

I like the way you expressed yourself here. Though we disagree, your post was a good read and I appreciate the thought you put in to it.

I am one of those guys you mentioned, well some times I am anyway. I have days when I just want to quest and be left a lone and others where I would like to kill a big boss.

I am also looking forward to Arch Age, but not just for the PvP. If AA delivers half the freedom it is advertising, I will be hooked on that game for years to come.