Bill - are you going from the Radiance -> Darbee -> VW1000? If so, it sounds like Dr. Darbee may be thinking the issue is between the Radiance and the Darbee. Whereas I had just been thinking that it was between the Darbee and the projector... ?

Dr. Darbee - If the issue is between the Radiance and the Darbee, I wonder if it is possible Lumagen could supply a fix via its firmware update to the Lumagen which is easily upgraded by us at home? Even if the issue turns out to be in the Darbee firmware, I would think Lumagen may be interested in providing a workaround (assuming it was possible) so their product works for the hundreds of Darbees out there if there is such an incompatibility (which we don't know yet).

Also Bill - just as a test - have you tried temporarily taking the Lumagen out of the chain? Maybe something like your Comcast STB -> Darbee -> VW1000? That would tell us whether the issue was somehow related to the Lumagen on way or another. Sorry if this was already tried.

And the only way a director would not like the Darbee does if he didn't want the detail to be noticeable but preferred an air brushed look.If the Director was shooting in 4K and viewing said on a 4K display, I can't believe he wouldn't like what the Darbee does for a 2K source and disp;ay or a slightly lower 1080p capture and a 1080p display.

Well there are two issues that need to be separated here: what the Darbee "does" in terms of how a cinematographer might use it and what the Darbee "does" to his film image in the hands of most consumers who actually buy one.

Viewing an image with more actual resolution (4K vs 2K) is a different looking image than viewing a 2K image with the Darbee enhancing it. Since the Darbee does not increased visible detail via actual new source information, but instead uses a manipulation of contrast to highlight detail, that is an additional manipulation a director is not seeing when he views a 4K source. The more you crank up the Darbee, the more you change the look of the whole picture. I mean, I'm not even the cinematographer of the movies I'm watching and even I start to get turned of by the level of alteration the image takes on as the Darblet cranks higher and higher, let alone the cinematographer whose efforts went into getting the lighting/contrast balance precisely as he desired on set and in post.

I mentioned some examples before in the thread. For instance a scene that demonstrated this aptly is a scene in Avatar were Colonel Quaritch is sitting under over head lighting. There are highlights at the top of his nose and brow/cheeks. With the Darblet off it looks fine. But as I turned the Darblet up, since the Darblet works by taking brighter and darker areas and increasing their contrast, those facial highlights got, in cinematography terms, hotter and hotter until they looked way too bright and artificial, blown-out looking like bad video. Having worked as an electric on film sets for years I'm sure the DP would have sent me scurrying for flags and scrims (or backing off lights) to bring those highlights down to a non-distracting level. In other words, given how finely grained cinematographers control the balance of lighting - that is their job! - I can't imagine a cinematographer watching the Darbee increase contrast and not at some point protesting that it's altering his work in a direction he didn't want.

Of course we can talk about using the Darbee subtly at lower settings, which don't alter the image contrast as obviously. But a lot of people won't be using the Darblet always at lowest settings. So I can imagine the Darblet will often be used to alter the image in a way that a director, or more likely the cinematographer, would disprove of, to some degree.

None of this is to take away from the Darbee which I use and enjoy. Like any image processing tool you can push it too hard. But when we talk of a director/cinematography liking what the Darbee does for 2K we would have to be clear we would be talking about his own judicious use of the Darbee....and not necessarily "what the Darbee is doing for the image in people's set ups" given that people will be using various settings, a number of them likely meriting disapproval from someone who shot the movie.

It's not, and we can assess what E-shift is doing by eye. My own projector (RS20) doesn't have E-shift, though (those images really make me want to upgrade).
The E-shift is addressing a small problem with digitally projected images: screen door effect. With e-shift on, the image looks more like projected film. It's been designed to compensate for (or nearly eliminate) an artefact of digital projection.

I don't want to take this too far off course but to create the eshift JVC first up samples the 1920x1080 frame into a 3840x2160 image and then it takes 1/2 of that and displays it for 1/60 and then takes the other half shifts it 1/2 pixel and then displays it for 1/60 second. What we don't know is what algorithms JVC has employed for the up-sampling and downsampling and if there is any other "funny business" going on. Regardless, if you like it you like it...

I certainly don't mind you presenting an alternate viewpoint. I have yet to really examine a darbeeized image so I may not like it when all is said and done. Given the comments of others here though I don't expect that to be the case. Since most here do like it maybe that is saying something about what consumers like, and maybe some content providers should pay attention......food for thought.....

Not an assumption, the spec sheet says it is limited to 1080p 60 or less.
Will it bypass a 4K signal? I doubt it, the chips don't have a sufficient band width for that, I suspect. But if you are pl;anning to get some 4K sources and have a 4K display, I doubt you woul be able to use it, except to process 1080p source material and then upscale it with a 4K scaler either external or internal to your 4K display.
I use mine after my Lumagen (outputting 1080p 24 or 60) and the projector upscales my 1080p darbeeized to 4K.
I hereby create a new standardized forum word, DARBEEIZED.

Yes that's what I figured. I'm thinking ahead though a few years, when we will have 4K sources and a (affordable) 4K Radiance. If I like the Darbee I'd like to think I'd have it in the chain for years to come, but at that point I guess I'll have to sell it and get a replacement Darbee that may then be available which does 4K.

Jason - those indeed are some amazing screen shots. Thanks for posting them!

Regarding the "Darbee on / eshift off - Zoomed shot from Seating distance ~14 feet from the 142" 16:9 dalite." - do you happen to have a pic of this that has Darbee off / eshift off? I'd like to compare the two. The first set of pics you put in that post compares a Darbee off to Darbee on but its too zoomed out for me to be able to appreciate the differences. I guess what I'm wondering about is more shots that compare Darbee off to Darbee on, without e-shift for those of us that do not have it.

As a side note, that 5th element shot is stunning. I can really appreciate what the eshift is doing for the RS55 and it makes me want to consider its replacement model this year for my VW95 (although I am still very happy with it). Too bad tho I sit 2x screen widths which I believe is outside the key benefit area of the e-shift and 4K resolution. No real way for me to sit closer either. So I guess the only option is to make the screen a lot larger. Tho that will be challenging too, as its currently within a custom built-in and would require major cabinetry reworking. Then I'd also be dealing with less lumens due to the larger screen size. I guess I'll wait a few years time. By then we'll have 4K sources, cheaper 4K projectors which are also brighter and then maybe I can redo the room... In the meantime Darbee to the rescue as a hold-me-over? We'll find out soon I suppose.

It's not, and we can assess what E-shift is doing by eye. My own projector (RS20) doesn't have E-shift, though (those images really make me want to upgrade).
The E-shift is addressing a small problem with digitally projected images: screen door effect. With e-shift on, the image looks more like projected film. It's been designed to compensate for (or nearly eliminate) an artefact of digital projection.
The Darblet is addressing a problem which doesn't exist with Blu-ray content, at least not on better projectors.
That's all it is. I don't perceive any issue with the sharpness of 1920x1080 video on BD so I don't see the point in using these processing effects to give the perception of greater sharpness. So in my view, it's arbitrary processing.This is exactly my point.
Directors/Producers *already* have the chance to add these sort of effects into their films. In fact, they already do.
If they wanted to add more of the effect, they would have.
The entire point of color grading is to produce a visually appealing image and to manipulate light and color in localized areas of the picture - for example, adding slight highlight boosting around a point of interest or darkening the edges of the frame to "steer" the viewer's eye. The colorists and filmmakers did their job already.
BTW, I hope owners here aren't too annoyed by this discussion. Again, I don't mean to wag fingers at you, just share my opinion. Much of what's being debated is the principle; there are so many worse things you could do to an image in a display device.

Except blu-ray does NOT give us the same resolution/source in which the director produced.
We get a downscaled(2K) version and you can't possibly believe blu-ray still maintains/contains the same resolution/detail as the directors source(final product).
Then there's the manipulation that occurs transferring the film to DVD/blu-ray, which is at the mercy/control of the compressionist to provide what they believe/interpret is the directors intent.

I think Lyris just can't budge for any sharpness processing such being verbotten, bad, against standards, and against video purism and nothing one can show him or explain would ever persuade him,. He is silent when he just can't respond to arguments contrary to his prejudice.

The Darbee enhances contrast by making contrast transitions more visible by a variety of processing. It actually doesn't sharpen however making contrast transitions more visible the effect appears as if the picture is sharpened absent those nasty sharpening artifacts such as ringing.

I remain open to responses from Lyris to my open questions in several above posts.

I think he is now backed into a corner saying the Director or his agent approved the Bluray disc no matter how inferior it might be to say a 4K or higher original and that any processing to make that transfer appear on a display screen closer to the 4K original would be contrary to the directors intent. Anyhow. I am traveling today and won't be able to rejoin the fray until tomorrow night probably.

I really don't want to sound like a broken record, since there are people here who like the processing and as someone else said, there's no point in sounding like a street preacher.
But since you asked: what I don't like are the edgy, emphasised areas, especially in the "below the ear" area in the shot of the guy. It's by no means a huge deal - I could happily watch a film like this. But that's the sort of "edgyness" I specifically try to avoid if I ever have to use similar processing, unless the footage requires it to convey a point. The processed image is by no means a bad image, I just prefer how it looks minus sharpening.

Most people assume that we in part focus on edges. We don't and we specifically avoid processing at edges.

Jason - those indeed are some amazing screen shots. Thanks for posting them!

Regarding the "Darbee on / eshift off - Zoomed shot from Seating distance ~14 feet from the 142" 16:9 dalite." - do you happen to have a pic of this that has Darbee off / eshift off? I'd like to compare the two. The first set of pics you put in that post compares a Darbee off to Darbee on but its too zoomed out for me to be able to appreciate the differences. I guess what I'm wondering about is more shots that compare Darbee off to Darbee on, without e-shift for those of us that do not have it.

As a side note, that 5th element shot is stunning. I can really appreciate what the eshift is doing for the RS55 and it makes me want to consider its replacement model this year for my VW95 (although I am still very happy with it). Too bad tho I sit 2x screen widths which I believe is outside the key benefit area of the e-shift and 4K resolution. No real way for me to sit closer either. So I guess the only option is to make the screen a lot larger. Tho that will be challenging too, as its currently within a custom built-in and would require major cabinetry reworking. Then I'd also be dealing with less lumens due to the larger screen size. I guess I'll wait a few years time. By then we'll have 4K sources, cheaper 4K projectors which are also brighter and then maybe I can redo the room... In the meantime Darbee to the rescue as a hold-me-over? We'll find out soon I suppose.

no problem, it's taken some experimenting to try and capture these changes in photos to show the darby + e-shift effect. I don't have that specific photo, but can easily re-take them this weekend.

I use the darby moderately at this close seating distance (usually 35%). I understand some may want to crank it up higher which I could see on a smaller screen and a farther seating distance. With my setup, the e-shift / MPC set at 2 - Darby @ 35-40% looks great.

Dr. Darbee and Bill,
That's great to hear.
Bill - are you going from the Radiance -> Darbee -> VW1000? If so, it sounds like Dr. Darbee may be thinking the issue is between the Radiance and the Darbee. Whereas I had just been thinking that it was between the Darbee and the projector... ?
Dr. Darbee - If the issue is between the Radiance and the Darbee, I wonder if it is possible Lumagen could supply a fix via its firmware update to the Lumagen which is easily upgraded by us at home? Even if the issue turns out to be in the Darbee firmware, I would think Lumagen may be interested in providing a workaround (assuming it was possible) so their product works for the hundreds of Darbees out there if there is such an incompatibility (which we don't know yet).
Also Bill - just as a test - have you tried temporarily taking the Lumagen out of the chain? Maybe something like your Comcast STB -> Darbee -> VW1000? That would tell us whether the issue was somehow related to the Lumagen on way or another. Sorry if this was already tried.
Thanks!

Thanks much, Dr. D. Yes, I just received an email from Lumagen that they had discovered a device specific bug and have developed a FW patch. It does sound, though, that I will need to return the unit for the FW fix.

But WOW, what service from Darbee and Lumagen, two fantastic outfits--producing quality products and standing by them.

Thanks much, Dr. D. Yes, I just received an email from Lumagen that they had discovered a device specific bug and have developed a FW patch. It does sound, though, that I will need to return the unit for the FW fix.

But WOW, what service from Darbee and Lumagen, two fantastic outfits--producing quality products and standing by them.

Bill - that's great to hear, but I'm a bit confused. So Lumagen developed a FW patch? If so, then why would you need to return the Darbee for the FW fix? You already have the newest Darbee yes? Unless the Lumagen firmware fix also requires yet another Darbee firmware update?

Bill - that's great to hear, but I'm a bit confused. So Lumagen developed a FW patch? If so, then why would you need to return the Darbee for the FW fix? You already have the newest Darbee yes? Unless the Lumagen firmware fix also requires yet another Darbee firmware update?

I would gladly pay a bit more for the ability to apply FW updates myself. Please put this in version 2. HDMI compatibility issues alone usually mean a product requires several FW updates during its lifetime.

Bill - that's great to hear, but I'm a bit confused. So Lumagen developed a FW patch? If so, then why would you need to return the Darbee for the FW fix? You already have the newest Darbee yes? Unless the Lumagen firmware fix also requires yet another Darbee firmware update?

Correction: my email was from Darbee, so the patch is for the Darblet. But Darbee and Lumagen got together and identified the problem; sweet!

I believe it's been said here or elsewhere David will be borrowing a unit and actually evaluating it in person. Maybe all this that is ramping up again based on screen shots as excellent as they are, should be dialed back until that happens. I'm glad to hear he has what I'm sure is a perfectly calibrated RS20 to hopefully use it with and view as well as whatever else he does. This is what Jeff Meier has (had?) at the time he first saw this processing on my RS50. He found it "compelling" and wanting to actually buy one himself to use with his RS20.......but was ultra conservative in what he could see using it at in his system. 10-15-20 in the HD mode. To give the LCOS a bit more of the ansi pop and look of a much more expensive 3 chip DLP projector. And he remarked that gain in increments of 1 he wished they would provide as well, which Darbee has now done. He has also seen all of the state of the art processors and I've seen him state a couple of times on forums now that this is the only one he has had interest to put into his system.

He also said something very interesting which I don't think he will have any issue being shared, but which goes to the heart of whether DVP can be replicated with other processing controls in the highest end systems he works with. And it expands on this direct quote from his blog same day as he saw the Darbee processing: "When this device is used more aggressively it will strongly enhance object contrast. This could be very useful for the visually impaired." He said he works a lot with visually impaired persons, some having very expensive, high end systems, and the difficulty of fine tuning an image to get it to where it finally looks good to the person.....but not like crap to others with normal vision is a very difficult thing to do. Plus the settings of course are not readily accessible nor should they be randomly adjusted once they're set. Sub menu, plus whatever in the user accessible menu he has to set up. But the Darblet he said gave a very practical solution that the impaired customer, after a more standard optimized calibration, could use in very simple fashion themselves, to much better view the programming and not mess up the picture to where it was unenjoyable to others.

I have a personal, simple experiment for David. Some way, maybe order one and expedite shipment so you have it..... get ahold of a Bluray disc of the Art of Flight snowboarding movie. With your RS20...... watch this movie (you have to be honest of course) and experiment with any settings in the HD mode at the very least, above ZERO, to find one you could most come close to being "OK" with it........then toggle back and forth the processing off and on. Would you at that point still choose to watch this exquisitely finest quality transfer on your projector without the Darblet?

Also please give your honest impression of how well the Darbee processing in that movie is doing with its main, original and underlying goal of not just "sharpening and making detail more visible" but rather to actually add roundness and depth.......... without 3D glasses to 2 dimensional material. Of all of the multitude of processing technologies you have available to you in your s.o.t.a. work suites......do any of them take the original image and in real time create a new offset left and right image and then with patented processing work with that new mix to attempt to create additional depth. Honest question. This is such a HUGE, unprecedented accomplishment and always gets lost in all the rhetoric...... I feel.

I believe it's been said here or elsewhere David will be borrowing a unit and actually evaluating it in person. Maybe all this that is ramping up again based on screen shots as excellent as they are, should be dialed back until that happens. I'm glad to hear he has what I'm sure is a perfectly calibrated RS20 to hopefully use it with and view as well as whatever else he does. This is what Jeff Meier has (had?) at the time he first saw this processing on my RS50. He found it "compelling" and wanting to actually buy one himself to use with his RS20.......but was ultra conservative in what he could see using it at in his system. 10-15-20 in the HD mode. To give the LCOS a bit more of the ansi pop and look of a much more expensive 3 chip DLP projector. And he remarked that gain in increments of 1 he wished they would provide as well, which Darbee has now done. He has also seen all of the state of the art processors and I've seen him state a couple of times on forums now that this is the only one he has had interest to put into his system.
He also said something very interesting which I don't think he will have any issue being shared, but which goes to the heart of whether DVP can be replicated with other processing controls in the highest end systems he works with. And it expands on this direct quote from his blog same day as he saw the Darbee processing: "When this device is used more aggressively it will strongly enhance object contrast. This could be very useful for the visually impaired." He said he works a lot with visually impaired persons, some having very expensive, high end systems, and the difficulty of fine tuning an image to get it to where it finally looks good to the person.....but not like crap to others with normal vision is a very difficult thing to do. Plus the settings of course are not readily accessible nor should they be randomly adjusted once they're set. Sub menu, plus whatever in the user accessible menu he has to set up. But the Darblet he said gave a very practical solution that the impaired customer, after a more standard optimized calibration, could use in very simple fashion themselves, to much better view the programming and not mess up the picture to where it was unenjoyable to others.
I have a personal, simple experiment for David. Some way, maybe order one and expedite shipment so you have it..... get ahold of a Bluray disc of the Art of Flight snowboarding movie. With your RS20...... watch this movie (you have to be honest of course) and experiment with any settings in the HD mode at the very least, above ZERO, to find one you could most come close to being "OK" with it........then toggle back and forth the processing off and on. Would you at that point still choose to watch this exquisitely finest quality transfer on your projector without the Darblet?
Also please give your honest impression of how well the Darbee processing in that movie is doing with its main, original and underlying goal of not just "sharpening and making detail more visible" but rather to actually add roundness and depth.......... without 3D glasses to 2 dimensional material. Of all of the multitude of processing technologies you have available to you in your s.o.t.a. work suites......do any of them take the original image and in real time create a new offset left and right image and then with patented processing work with that new mix to attempt to create additional depth. Honest question. This is such a HUGE, unprecedented accomplishment and always gets lost in all the rhetoric...... I feel.

Hey Ron, would that be the same Blu Ray that David, DNice and Kevin miller were using at this years shootout?

So, is this a fix specifically related to the Darblet and your particular display? Or is this one that is needed for all Darblets? And is this above and beyond the currently shipping Darblets?

Seems strange that my JVC RS1 auto changes color modes just fine yet the Sony does not. Anybody else with a Lumagen and JVC have this problem? Although with a JVC you can force input color selection unlike the Sony.

Hey Ron, would that be the same Blu Ray that David, DNice and Kevin miller were using at this years shootout?

Wasn't there and really have no knowledge but if that was the title and it was about snowboarding and maybe was some of the most incredible, clean, detailed footage ever seen on a bluray.....then probably yes. State of the art cameras both film and video, plus the finest gyro stabilized ariel footage I've ever seen. Incredibly skilled boarders, and chopper pilots for that matter when you see the precarious landing spots sometimes with blades whipping just feet above the boarders heads on tiny ridges.

Wasn't there and really have no knowledge but if that was the title and it was about snowboarding and maybe was some of the most incredible, clean, detailed footage ever seen on a bluray.....then probably yes. State of the art cameras both film and video, plus the finest gyro stabilized ariel footage I've ever seen. Incredibly skilled boarders, and chopper pilots for that matter when you see the precarious landing spots sometimes with blades whipping just feet above the boarders heads on tiny ridges.

Jason I put this in and watched just the opening airel shots and about 10-12 minutes of the movie when I had to pick my jaw off my lap and go to my computer to do a search on "cameras used for The Art of Flight". I found this link below. Yes the opening sequence, or maybe they also mean the scenes that run in the background on the menu page, were shot with the RED Epic 5K camera. But there were so many more used.

Once you have the achieved the correct settings with the darbee do most leave it and enjoy the Movies? Or do some movies require you to change the Settings?

That's a good question. In my old age, I've become more of a set it and forget it kind of guy. Hopefully I can answer soon. My CC has been charged so I'm assuming a Darblet isn't far behind. I'm holding out hope for a Saturday delivery. C'mon USPS.

__________________________________________________

Take life with a grain of salt... a slice of lime, and a shot of tequila

Yes that's what I figured. I'm thinking ahead though a few years, when we will have 4K sources and a (affordable) 4K Radiance. If I like the Darbee I'd like to think I'd have it in the chain for years to come, but at that point I guess I'll have to sell it and get a replacement Darbee that may then be available which does 4K.

HI
I received my Darbee today in the UK but I am having problems.
I have my Xbox, Sky HD, Blu Ray player and Dune HD D1 all hooked up to my Onkyo Amp via HDMI.
All sources work correctly apart from my Dune HD D1, It keeps displaying a green image.
When on
output colourspace RGB-Full
Default decoder colourspce Auto
The colour is fine until I play a movie then the image goes all green.
When on
Output colourspace Auto or BT,709
default decoder colourspace Auto or BT.709
I just get a green image all the time.
Why is this? I thought the colourspace was fixed in the latest update?
I have tried different cables, I have tried older firmware on the Dune and its just the same. Yet if I take the Darbee out of the chain the dune works fine,