Huh? New Sunfish Class?

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And if you want to claim that you own the IP on the word "Sunfish" as used in the title of a sailors' Association then you are going to have to take that up with these fine ladies. (and my money says you lose)

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From Mr. Roy in the latest Laser Sailor in regards to parts shortages:

"We continue to encourage LP to improve this situation and the ongoing relationship in general, but it continues to be frustrating and also confusing to understand LP's business objectives and the message it is sending to Laser sailors. What's unusual is that the Class Association's objective, at the World, Regional and District levels, is to operate as non-profit organizations that ultimately (and indirectly) promote LP products through the organization of events where these LP sold products are needed and used by the participants. From a monetary perspective, the Class' use of the Laser name and logo is solely to the benefit of Laser Performance's business."

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In the latest (Winter 2018) Laser Sailor Andy Roy (Chairman, ILCA North America) wrote the following:

ILCA continues to have challenges in its efforts to establish a positive working relationship with Laser Perfomance. By now most Class member have experienced Laser parts supply issues. This has been a significant problem for both dealers and sailors to obtain boats, sails (although this has improved from what I understand) and various parts. We continue to encourage LP to improve this situation and the ongoing relationship in general, but it continues to be frustrating and also confusing to understand LP's business objectives and the message it is sending to Laser sailors. What's unusual is that the Class Association's objective, at the World, Regional and District levels, is to operate as non-profit organizations that ultimately (and indirectly) promote LP products through the organization of events where these LP sold products are needed and used by the participants. From a monetary perspective, the Class' use of the Laser name and logo is solely to the benefit of Laser Performance's business.

The highlighting is mine, not Andy's!

Not that the tone of the above is close to many views expressed in this thread.

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Another post on FB from LP saying that the town hall meeting is off but that they will meet with the class president, statement below:

“TOWN HALL” MEETING PROPOSED BY LASERPERFORMANCE TO BE HELD BY IN REGARDS TO SUNFISH
Update: 6 January 2018

LaserPerformance regrets to announce the cancellation of the “Town Hall” Meeting proposed and planned for January 8th, 2018 between ISCA and LaserPerformance, moderated by World Sailing to discuss in open forum the issues between ISCA and LaserPerformance.
The President of ISCA declined to attend any such style of an open meeting and instructed all ISCA members not to attend. Rather, the President of ISCA insisted that he would only attend a “closed-door” exclusive meeting where the President himself would represent the entirety of ISCA membership with all and full authority vested in him. Naturally World Sailing have subsequently recused themselves to avoid any misconceptions.
LaserPerformance continues to maintain that an open meeting between ISCA and LaserPerformance moderated by World Sailing, where all stakeholders have an opportunity to participate, in person or by teleconference, would be the most transparent, inclusive and truthful exposure of all issues. It would also be the most effective path to reconciliation where possible and to bridging differences.
However, in the interest of all Sunfish stakeholders and more importantly the opportunity for resolution of the principal issues, LaserPerformance has agreed to this “Private Closed-door Executive Only” meeting format proposed by the ISCA President. World Sailing has very graciously agreed to attend this meeting which will now be held on the 8th of January, 2018 in New York City. During this meeting LaserPerformance hopes to debate and discuss all issues with special focus directed towards the differences between the ISCA and ISCO.
Notwithstanding, LaserPerformance will conduct and hold a WEBINAR for all those stakeholders who have been excluded from participation as a result of this restrictive format. Two WEBINAR sessions will be held as follows:
WEBINAR 1: Sunday 14 January 2018 from 12:00 noon to 14:00 EST [NY time]
WEBINAR 2: Monday 15 January 2018 from 12:00 noon to 14:00 EST [NY time].
Details of access to the WEBINAR sessions will be published closer to the date.
LaserPerformance hopes to present to all stakeholders details of the meeting of January 8th, 2018, including the agenda, presentations, discussions, deliberations, and outcomes of the “closed-door” meeting in the interests of bringing transparent, open and inclusive dialogue to and with all Sunfish stakeholders. We hope you can attend the WEBINAR sessions and we welcome receiving in anticipation any suggestions for topics to discuss or questions to answer.

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"ISCO is proud to announce that they have surpassed 400 members!!! "Thank you so much to our sailors for all of your support!! We look forward to seeing you at events this 2018 season!!" #Sunfish#sailing#sail#ISCO#sunfishsailing"

You folks have been slacking here on SA/DA. I was expecting many more pages of angry posts while I was away! Where did all the ISCA love and ISCO hate go? ISCO claims 400 members. Meanwhile ISCA has begged for money for lawyers for months now and only got 40 members to cough up less than $150 each on average. WS still silent months in with no public statement. This might not be working out the way we thought it would...

"Houston, we have a problem..."

Is it time to get an Aero?

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"ISCO is proud to announce that they have surpassed 400 members!!! "Thank you so much to our sailors for all of your support!! We look forward to seeing you at events this 2018 season!!" #Sunfish#sailing#sail#ISCO#sunfishsailing"

You folks have been slacking here on SA/DA. I was expecting many more pages of angry posts while I was away! Where did all the ISCA love and ISCO hate go? ISCO claims 400 members. Meanwhile ISCA has begged for money for lawyers for months now and only got 40 members to cough up less than $150 each on average. WS still silent months in with no public statement. This might not be working out the way we thought it would...

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Yes but its closed door with WS, ISCA and ISCO/LP attending so no you ain't invited. LP/ISCO claims they wanted you to come but ISCA refused to let you. Doubt you should believe any of them about who said and did what about a public meeting, LOL, but yes they are reportedly meeting in private today.

LP/ISCO holding webinars to report back to its class members and general public on Sunday and Monday the 14th and 15th. Might be an interesting listen if your only other option was driving across Texas in the middle of the night (I speak from recent experience).

PS - My wife says she wants the ISCO. Should I be worried?

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Yes but its closed door with WS, ISCA and ISCO/LP attending so no you ain't invited. LP/ISCO claims they wanted you to come but ISCA refused to let you. Doubt you should believe any of them about who said and did what about a public meeting, LOL, but yes they are reportedly meeting in private today.

LP/ISCO holding webinars to report back to its class members and general public on Sunday and Monday the 14th and 15th. Might be an interesting listen if your only other option was driving across Texas in the middle of the night (I speak from recent experience).

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Assuming both are truthful (they may not be... personally I think both LP/ISCO and ISCA have been less than fully truthful and transparent in statements to date)... both ISCO and ISCA are claiming similar levels of membership, or to be representing similar numbers of sailors.

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Assuming both are truthful (they may not be... personally I think both LP/ISCO and ISCA have been less than fully truthful and transparent in statements to date)... both ISCO and ISCA are claiming similar levels of membership, or to be representing similar numbers of sailors.

ISCA has about 1000 paid members, much more than ISCO's claimed 400 members who merely clicked online to 'join' for free. For all we know, ISCO's members could just be data mined addresses of people who took a peek at their website.

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ISCA has about 1000 paid members, much more than ISCO's claimed 400 members who merely clicked online to 'join' for free. For all we know, ISCO's members could just be data mined addresses of people who took a peek at their website.

No dog in this fight but not according to ISCA's published membership list (Active Membership Database ‐ USSCA_Jan‐03‐18) they don't have no 1000. Not even close. And if they did ever or do now have 1000, then good grief only 40 members responding to their endless pleas for legal fees donations tells you about how invested those 1000 members are.

Honestly I doubt either organization (ISCA or ISCO) have but a handful of folks (less than 100 and closer to 50) that give sh*t how this all turns out. My experience is that sailors mostly want to sail. Not help lawyers buy boats. Give me access to charter boats, nice regatta locations, and an ability to keep my personal boat afloat and racing and I don't care what your organization name is or who you are affiliated with. This is recreation; not life or death... except maybe for Gouv. I just want to sail with friends and have fun. Oh, and free is better than not free! But that's just me. N of 1. YMMV.

PS - You didn't need to join ISCO to see what they were up to or to get into or ask questions at the webinars... I speak from experience there.

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Why is World Sailing meeting with an individual who is trying to destroy one of its member organizations??

Ultimately it will be nearly impossible for the Class Association to fulfil all its responsibilities if its at war with the copyright holder. That's why I suspect that ISCA is in a very high risk position, and I fear has a low chance of prevailing. Not that they have a choice really, I don't think they can be reasonable representatives of their members if they are owned by LP. especially in the current circumstances.

I think its good that this meeting is in private, I don't think anything is ever improved by public meetings in which both sides are simply showboating to the audience.

What would be really entertaining would be if ISCOs members had an AGM and voted to disband the organisation or be taken over by ISCA...

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The word you are looking for is "realist." Titling at windmills ain't my thing. There are some things around grass roots sailing that you and I agree (I think) but that said nobody else is jumping on that bandwagon. Not builders, not class associations, and not sailors at any level.

In terms of this ISCA, ISCO, LP mess, the numbers are what they are and the outcome will be what it will be. And the world will go on unchanged either way.

Its just sailing.

But we are kinda off the point of the thread which is the Sunfish, no?

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"LP, ISCA and World Sailing enjoyed a very constructive and positive meeting in New York City on Monday the 8th of January. Because of the nature of this meeting LP will postpone their webinars schedule for Sunday the 14th and Monday the 15th of January for two weeks. Please be prepared to tune in on the 21st and 22nd of January."

They seem to have given themselves another 2 weeks to resolve things. Perhaps progress was made. A similar statement from ISCA would further suggest some middle ground might exist but nothing posted from them presently.

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Very sorry to hear the news about Vic. He and Pat were a great pair. Always friendly and helpful at regattas. They traveled the country with their Sunfish for many years and were stalwarts for the class.

RIP

1

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ISCA - The class leadership had a very productive meeting with representatives of Laser Performance and World Sailing in New York City on Monday January 8th. We will update our membership and supporters as we continue to make progress towards a mutually beneficial agreement.

LP - LP, ISCA and World Sailing enjoyed a very constructive and positive meeting in New York City on Monday the 8th of January. Because of the nature of this meeting LP will postpone their webinars schedule for Sunday the 14th and Monday the 15th of January for two weeks. Please be prepared to tune in on the 21st and 22nd of January.

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"LP, ISCA and World Sailing enjoyed a very constructive and positive meeting in New York City on Monday the 8th of January. Because of the nature of this meeting LP will postpone their webinars schedule for Sunday the 14th and Monday the 15th of January for two weeks. Please be prepared to tune in on the 21st and 22nd of January."

They seem to have given themselves another 2 weeks to resolve things. Perhaps progress was made. A similar statement from ISCA would further suggest some middle ground might exist but nothing posted from them presently.

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I stopped by the local dealer this morning. He has not received any shipments from LP.

There isn’t much point having a Class Association to manage a game to be played in toys no one who wants to play can purchase

Meanwhile in Connecticut...

New SailLaser Center Planned for SONO district of Norwalk, Connecticut

LaserPerformance is pleased to announce it will be opening a SailLaser Center in the SONO district of Norwalk, Connecticut. The Center will reach out to the southern Connecticut community to help make sailing as easy and enjoyable as possible regardless of means or ability. Sailing lessons will be offered for all skill levels and, for more experienced sailors, rigged dinghy boats will be available for rent or seasonal lease. Summer fun activities are planned for children, while families will be invited to participate in regattas and social events. Those interested in improving the environment in their community will be encouraged to join one of our LaserPerformance Handprint initiatives to keep our water and environment sustainable. Finally, the SailLaser Center will provide maintenance services for dinghy boats, as well as offer a wide range of LaserPerformance boats, parts and accessories which can presently be viewed and purchased at www.LaserPerformance.com. The SailLaser Center will welcome the community commencing May 2018 at 10 Marshall Street, South Norwalk, CT.

Above was pasted a few days on the LaserPerformance Facebook page.

Not sure what to make of it. Having dumped the old Sunfish class, are LP now dumping all their old dealers and concentrating on selling direct?

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ISCA - The class leadership had a very productive meeting with representatives of Laser Performance and World Sailing in New York City on Monday January 8th. We will update our membership and supporters as we continue to make progress towards a mutually beneficial agreement.

LP - LP, ISCA and World Sailing enjoyed a very constructive and positive meeting in New York City on Monday the 8th of January. Because of the nature of this meeting LP will postpone their webinars schedule for Sunday the 14th and Monday the 15th of January for two weeks. Please be prepared to tune in on the 21st and 22nd of January.

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CEO is legally bound to make decisions based on financial interests of stockholders no?

The correct answer to that question is no.

If it is a "public company" listed on an exchange, the Board of Directors owe a fiduciary duty to stockholders and that duty will include the financial interest of the stockholders but that can be balanced with their duties to employees and customers. For example, it was not illegal per se, for the various companies that recently announced that they will be distributing some of the benefits of tax cuts as bonus payments to employees. If the board of directors, decide they want to take a loss to "make it right" with a customer, it is very hard to legally challenge that decision.

If the CEO is not a member of the board, then the CEO's duty to the company and shareholders will be contractual. The contract will likely include clauses defining financial and fiduciary duty responsibilities so that the Board protect themselves as regards their duty of care.

However there is no law that says a CEO has to base any of his decisions on profit .

In a PRIVATE company (like LP) , all bets are off. If there are several non-control shareholders then the duty of care of the officers of the company will be contractual as defined in the Articles of Association. If the company is a "closed" company then the owner or owning family can tell the CEO to make his decisions based on any damn thing the owner thinks fit.

If an owner doesnt care about making a profit then he can instruct his CEO to sue the customer's trade association, stop supplying spare parts to customers, insult the customers, deliver product late and in insufficient quantity. He can tells his CEO to undermine their own dealer network and order the CEO to get rid of the volunteers who help promote the product. Hell if am owner really doesnt care about profit, he can always hire lawyers (because we are always happy to take the money) to pursue claims with absolutely no merit.

Hey...you are going to say...that would never happen in the real world. But stranger things have happened. You wouldnt believe the story I heard about a profitable consumer leisure product that...

Association obligated to make decision aligned with interests of its members, no?

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as I see it, a major problem with our country / society is the fact companies and employers no longer work to form long term familial relationships.

A business can exist for an infinite number of reasons and prioritize those reasons in an infinite variety of order.

My own business is a good example. Some days I fix boats because I need some money RIGHT NOW!!!

Some days I fix boats because the little kid was sitting on the shore crying.

If my highest business priority were always the bottom line I wouldn’t enjoy running my business nearly as much as I do and I imagine some of my loyal customers would think less of me than they currently do.

My employees have always been paid, usually on time and always ahead of me.

We create the best J-22 keel shapes in the world. My goal never has been and never will be to make the most money on J-22 keels.

Perhaps someday someone will take over my business and try to make money first rather than make great products and feed the staff first.

My employees drive nicer vehicles than the guys who work at other boat shops around the area. My customers have prettier boats that don’t break down as often as those who go to other boat shops.

I think many goals are important but always place employees first, customers second, and count on my skills to leave a decent share of leftovers for myself.

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as I see it, a major problem with our country / society is the fact companies and employers no longer work to form long term familial relationships.

A business can exist for an infinite number of reasons and prioritize those reasons in an infinite variety of order.

My own business is a good example. Some days I fix boats because I need some money RIGHT NOW!!!

Some days I fix boats because the little kid was sitting on the shore crying.

If my highest business priority were always the bottom line I wouldn’t enjoy running my business nearly as much as I do and I imagine some of my loyal customers would think less of me than they currently do.

My employees have always been paid, usually on time and always ahead of me.

We create the best J-22 keel shapes in the world. My goal never has been and never will be to make the most money on J-22 keels.

Perhaps someday someone will take over my business and try to make money first rather than make great products and feed the staff first.

My employees drive nicer vehicles than the guys who work at other boat shops around the area. My customers have prettier boats that don’t break down as often as those who go to other boat shops.

I think many goals are important but always place employees first, customers second, and count on my skills to leave a decent share of leftovers for myself.

Greed is not a value

That is pretty fair Gouv. Bit busy so can’t say much more than that at the moment. But in theory we ain’t far apart.

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as I see it, a major problem with our country / society is the fact companies and employers no longer work to form long term familial relationships.

A business can exist for an infinite number of reasons and prioritize those reasons in an infinite variety of order.

My own business is a good example. Some days I fix boats because I need some money RIGHT NOW!!!

Some days I fix boats because the little kid was sitting on the shore crying.

If my highest business priority were always the bottom line I wouldn’t enjoy running my business nearly as much as I do and I imagine some of my loyal customers would think less of me than they currently do.

My employees have always been paid, usually on time and always ahead of me.

We create the best J-22 keel shapes in the world. My goal never has been and never will be to make the most money on J-22 keels.

Perhaps someday someone will take over my business and try to make money first rather than make great products and feed the staff first.

My employees drive nicer vehicles than the guys who work at other boat shops around the area. My customers have prettier boats that don’t break down as often as those who go to other boat shops.

I think many goals are important but always place employees first, customers second, and count on my skills to leave a decent share of leftovers for myself.

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I sure hope all this is resolved before the Women’s Sunfish North Americans this September. The last thing I want to do is spend my weekend listening to endless complaining about LP

Even if this little tiff between the Sunfish class and the Sunfish builder is resolved, I suspect that Sunfish (and Laser) sailors will still be complaining endlessly about LP until their tillers are pried from their cold dead hands.

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I don't qualify for either of those at the moment and I am not planning any major changes in the future.

As long as there are reasonable people running local club races, life will go on as usual. I do realize that I won't be attending the Cork Sniffer Regatta any time soon.

Will the Sunfish Racing game go on locally fir many more years?? Probably.

But!!

We have a fleet of about sixty boats and a couple dozen show up every Wednesday night all summer. We are already starting to see a bit of shrinkage in numbers as people occasionally wander off and there are no new sailors with new boats coming from the local dealer.

Some of our sailors like to sail in nearly perfect brand new Sunfish. After three to five years these sailors have typically bought new Sunfish and sold their old boats to others who have continued to sail in the Fleet.

The business policies of LP are slowly choking our game. There is absolutely no way to interpret the LP policies as nurturing.

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Will the Sunfish Racing game go on locally fir many more years?? Probably.

But!!

We have a fleet of about sixty boats and a couple dozen show up every Wednesday night all summer. We are already starting to see a bit of shrinkage in numbers as people occasionally wander off and there are no new sailors with new boats coming from the local dealer.

Some of our sailors like to sail in nearly perfect brand new Sunfish. After three to five years these sailors have typically bought new Sunfish and sold their old boats to others who have continued to sail in the Fleet.

The business policies of LP are slowly choking our game. There is absolutely no way to interpret the LP policies as nurturing.

We need a supply of new singlehanded Racing toys

As near as I can tell, there are new boats being made in the USA that have a similar size lateen sail. One I found while looking for parts last year was Sunblazer. https://sunblazerboats.com/

I think there might be something else by American Sail as well. Once the race officials break the link to LP, club racing only gets better.

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Yea but will LPE pursue litigation as previously promised or do they back down? Lots of possible precedent for Laser class to watch.

Do think there is a good chance LPE runs away with its tail between its legs. They backed down from the last webinar and hunkered down without any public statements. But...

If LPE declare and launches a shooting war (litigation) and if so what does ISCA do then?

I think the ball is now in WS's court, as to which class asso they accept. History and their own rules would indicate they'll back ISCA. However, money and threat of lawsuit may make them cave in and recognize ISCO. It will be interesting. If WS goes for ISCO, then several sailor-controlled class assos will be pretty nervous.

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LPE might not initially push the issue with WS. Might be easier to push litigation against class leadership that can't really afford to defend themselves. That is assuming LPE has a litigation leg vs ISCA to stand on which they may not. YMMV. If LPE is backing down finally it will be interesting to see - and a real sign of change - if there is a key leadership departure. What a mess.

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My prediction is that ISCA will recognize formally that LP has the rights to the Sunfish name and logo, and in return LP will license ISCA to use those trademarks.

Of course this assumes that the leaders of both parties are actually sensible enough to realize that they need to work together in their common interest of persuading thousands of people to buy new Sunfish every year, and that they figure out that a deal is a better outcome than suing each other about who owns what bits of intellectual property.

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If ISCA doesn't use the word "Sunfish" or the logo, why would LPE have any ground to sue them?

Well they do seem to be using both post April 1 which was the cut of date which LPE said would prompt them to litigate IIRC. LPE does not seem to make boats or parts anymore. Maybe they just make lawsuits and have lawyers?! Hopefully better ones than the grey hair... sorry I canntt resist!!

If only we could get some generic classes with generics rules and specs for generic boats then grass root sailors could say to LPE...

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Why the hell would anybody continue to purchase sporting equipment from a company that threatens to sue anybody who uses the name of the product ?

The singlehanded Sailing game needs a builder of functional durable toys who enthusiastically supports that game

I already know people who are looking at newer used boats instead of buying new, which one already found-out are not readily available. The class ran the Masters and Midwinters without using the Sunfish name and trademarks. 'ISCA Class Masters', 'ISCA Class Midwinters'.

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I already know people who are looking at newer used boats instead of buying new, which one already found-out are not readily available. The class ran the Masters and Midwinters without using the Sunfish name and trademarks. 'ISCA Class Masters', 'ISCA Class Midwinters'.

My opinion ?? Sunfish is a generic name for lateen rigged little Sailboats.

And: How the hell couLd LP prove it is damaged by people holding Sunfish racing events?? A judge might humor them and do a cease order but no judge would award any damages.

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My prediction is that ISCA will recognize formally that LP has the rights to the Sunfish name and logo, and in return LP will license ISCA to use those trademarks.

Of course this assumes that the leaders of both parties are actually sensible enough to realize that they need to work together in their common interest of persuading thousands of people to buy new Sunfish every year, and that they figure out that a deal is a better outcome than suing each other about who owns what bits of intellectual property.

Well, that's how it was handled for several decades. Current issue arose because in discussion to renew agreement LP demanded ownership of ISCA name and trademarks, and control of class.