But wait... you said earlier...."I disagree strongly that any action of God would be detectable in some statistic."

But as I pointed out before, the actions of God were clearly statistically significant. Jesus could walk on water. That's a pretty statistically obvious miracle of God.

Is Jesus had walked on water, how which statistic observable by you would be different?

That's a fairly gobbled mess of english you posted there, but I presume I have the gist of it when I respond; the statistic, the measureable, the obvious would be SOMEONE WALKING ON WATER!

We could test, measure, and objectively verify if someone were to walk on water. We could do the same for any other alleged miracle as well (parting the red sea, turning water to wine, zombies, healing of amputees, etc.).

I wonder why it's never happened?

edit for clarity.

Of course it's happened - I walk on water all the time. Just come up here in the winter, when the lakes and rivers have frozen over, and I'll show you. Sheesh, these doubters......

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Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

I'd like him to answer as well. As I quoted, back in August he was quite clear that his god would answer my prayers within a three week period. I'd like him to address why six weeks on, nothing has happened.....though to be honest I'm expecting one or more of:

1) Disappearing.2) Claiming I didn't do it "right" - you know, adding conditions to what he said previously.3) Claiming "god answered but I haven't noticed" - you know, something completely different to the assertions he made before....especially since the object of the exercise was me gaining faith.

The sad part is, every couple months a new Christian comes along and makes claims of exactly what I need to do. And, after my best endeavours to get them to be as specific as possible (to make sure I do it right) I follow their instructions.

And, time after time, nothing happens.

Don't you know there are two escape clauses:

(1)Sincerely(2)You shalt not test HIm!

And yet, this same God who warns against testing Him, suggests at least two means of doing so, in that He promises if you believe, you can handle poisonous snakes and suffer no harm, or drink poison liquid and suffer no ill effects. Is this God talking out of both sides, or confused, or what?

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Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Added to which, in your reply to Kcrady you said that "...it doesn't happen that way suddenly. It takes some practice to hear the voice of God". How MUCH practice? How LONG to continue along one particular fruitless path before giving up and trying the next?

I'd like him to answer as well. As I quoted, back in August he was quite clear that his god would answer my prayers within a three week period. I'd like him to address why six weeks on, nothing has happened.....though to be honest I'm expecting one or more of:

1) Disappearing.2) Claiming I didn't do it "right" - you know, adding conditions to what he said previously.3) Claiming "god answered but I haven't noticed" - you know, something completely different to the assertions he made before....especially since the object of the exercise was me gaining faith.

The sad part is, every couple months a new Christian comes along and makes claims of exactly what I need to do. And, after my best endeavours to get them to be as specific as possible (to make sure I do it right) I follow their instructions.

And, time after time, nothing happens.

Don't you know there are two escape clauses:

(1)Sincerely(2)You shalt not test HIm!

And yet, this same God who warns against testing Him, suggests at least two means of doing so, in that He promises if you believe, you can handle poisonous snakes and suffer no harm, or drink poison liquid and suffer no ill effects. Is this God talking out of both sides, or confused, or what?

What!? The Bible Contradicts itself? Next thing you'll be saying is Judas dies in two differeent ways....oh wait.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Although an internet forum is such a ridiculous place to say this, I'm truly sorry about your son.

Thank you but that doesn't answer my question. Are you suggesting the reason prayers for my son, my friend's niece and my friend's mom were faulty? Sincerity was there, for all of them, for years and years and years.

As to your point above, I think I was misunderstood there. I've noticed there's a knee-jerk reaction here to the word "sincere." I was encouraging people to pray to know whether God exists. God has made a promise to mankind to answer their prayers for knowledge that He exists and to confirm truths about Himself.

But he didn't in my case or the others I offered. I prayed for knowledge for god's existence long after I realized my son's autism wasn't being effected by prayer. My friend prayed for knowledge for god's existence long after she realized her mother's mental illness wouldn't be effected by god's hand. Both of us lost our faiths, I lost my faith in the catholic church and she in the lds.

But, He did not promise to remove hardship, or even heart-breaking tragedy from our lives. Many, many sincere prayers go unanswered. Many more are not answered in the way we expect. I don't mean to trivialize any of the events you're describing, but I don't give my children everything they want, even when they really, really want it. Neither does God. His work and glory is to make us perfect. That takes a lot of work and hurts a lot sometimes. It's easier with faith, but LDS and other Christians also have days and even years we wouldn't wish on anyone. And, of course, the greatest of us led a life of poverty, loss, humiliation, betrayal, torture and an early death.

Well, he did promise a paraclete, a helper, and that promise went unfilled as well.

So, why believe? Why even seek faith if it doesn't remove our trials? I submit that we have a hard time in this world because it's a fallen world. Our natural home is with our Father in Heaven. This time of separation is an unnatural state and thus fraught with loneliness, doubt, confusion and pain. But, even in this life, God has promised to send us the Holy Spirit, also called the "Comforter." And he does comfort and give assurance of a world to come and a continuation of the relationships we cherish here.

This makes sense only assuming the existence of this god in the first place. The reason falls apart without this premise but there simple isn't reason to believe the premise. You believe because you take it on faith, the rest falls into place.

I really didn't mean to question the sincerity of yourself, your son or your friends.

I didn't think you did. But what you said, what you offered was exactly that - questioning the sincerity of my prayers or my faith and that of my friends. It's the only possibility if your god can't be wrong: I have to be wrong. I want you to see what you're really saying, what your advice and encouragement actually entails.

What's really funny (awful) about the christian religion is that the bible even supports the fact that god turns a deaf ear on prayers. When David had that affair with Bathsheba while sending her husband off to die, their love child was stricken with illness and died. David prayed and prayed for the child to recover, but NOPE.

So really, there's biblical support that if God doesn't answer your prayers, its not because you're insincere, its because you're a dirty sinner.

God created the world and the laws it abides by. It is infinitely more miraculous for us to experience God work inside the laws he's created on Earth rather than for Him to not abide by them. Outside of this world God can do anything and everything, as I'm sure many people have posted verses from the Bible stating such. In this world, He chooses not to do so, outside of Him coming to Earth in human form as Jesus and raising from the dead. There are many example of this. Read about the 10 plagues of Egypt. Then find, somewhere on the internet, a scientific explanation of these events. Christianity and science should not be viewed as rivals. God is the ultimate scientist and His greatness is shown in all things of this world. An amputee regaining a limb would, clearly, not abide by the rules he created so very long ago.

It is infinitely more miraculous for us to experience God work inside the laws he's created on Earth rather than for Him to not abide by them.

So what you are saying is that the ONLY things god can/will do in this world are things that could have happened anyway? So anyone who claims that a genuine "miracle"1 has happened is a dirty liar? There are many Christians on this forum who will tell you you are wrong...

- - - - -1 Something which could never have happened without divine intervention

It is infinitely more miraculous for us to experience God work inside the laws he's created on Earth rather than for Him to not abide by them.

Since this is an opinion, not an assertion of fact, I can't really address it in any way other than to say that I disagree.

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Outside of this world God can do anything and everything, as I'm sure many people have posted verses from the Bible stating such.

Yes, many people here have made that claim. However, when pressed on the matter, they tend to be rather lacking in the evidence department.

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In this world, He chooses not to do so

Then how do you know he can do them at all? If I say I can float in the air like a soap bubble and never demonstrate it, do you assume that I have the ability and choose not to use it, or do you assume that I'm lying about having the ability?

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outside of Him coming to Earth in human form as Jesus and raising from the dead.

The historicity of this event is, to phrase it generously, highly controversial. Or, to put it another way, if it were a settled historical matter, then there would be far fewer non-Christians.

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There are many example of this. Read about the 10 plagues of Egypt. Then find, somewhere on the internet, a scientific explanation of these events.

Here's a perfectly scientific explanation: the plagues are a myth. See how easy that was?

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Christianity and science should not be viewed as rivals.

Then why is it that, for the past several centuries, whenever the Church has said one thing about the nature of reality and science has said something different, the Church has always been wrong, without exception? And why is it that the Church's response for so many centuries was not to say, "OK, yes, we were wrong about this, we will therefore change our doctrine," but instead to murder, or threaten to murder, whoever it was holding the contrary view?

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God is the ultimate scientist

What does that even mean? Science is a human invention. I mean, Is God also the ultimate FORTRAN programmer?

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and His greatness is shown in all things of this world.

In what way? Or ways?

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An amputee regaining a limb would, clearly, not abide by the rules he created so very long ago.

This is patently false. In the Gospels, Jesus states, more than once, that if you have faith, you will receive anything you ask for in prayer -- no exceptions. For example:

Matthew 17:20 -- For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Mark 11:24 -- Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

John 14:12-14 -- Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

So quite contrary to what you say, it is very much in "the rules he created so very long ago" that amputees should be getting their limbs back. And yet, it never happens. Why do you think that is?

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

God created the world and the laws it abides by. It is infinitely more miraculous for us to experience God work inside the laws he's created on Earth rather than for Him to not abide by them. Outside of this world God can do anything and everything, as I'm sure many people have posted verses from the Bible stating such. In this world, He chooses not to do so, outside of Him coming to Earth in human form as Jesus and raising from the dead. There are many example of this. Read about the 10 plagues of Egypt. Then find, somewhere on the internet, a scientific explanation of these events. Christianity and science should not be viewed as rivals. God is the ultimate scientist and His greatness is shown in all things of this world. An amputee regaining a limb would, clearly, not abide by the rules he created so very long ago.

lovely excuse but hilarious when you forget that your god supposedly did a lot of things in the bible that were against these supposed “laws” it put into place. and the ten plagues? Oh dear. Tell us when Moses was in Egypt, GIA. What year was it so we know exactly when to look for the possible mechanisms for? Or are you like so many Christians trying to fit your myths to a swath of possible natural explanations that are all over the place in time. Oh and how long ago did this god of yours create these “laws”?

God is a primitive god created in the Bronze/Iron ages by humans. He is a petty powerful brat. It is only modern Christians who have cleaned him up a bit so they can still feel like special snowflakes but not to such a savage god.

Considering that we’re making headway treating amputees, I wonder what new excuse Christians will give when it suddenly becomes possible to regain a limb. Poor little god will be shoved into the gaps again.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

as I'm sure many people have posted verses from the Bible stating such.

And why should we believe the Bible? What is there to support the idea that it is correct?

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"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

God created the world and the laws it abides by. It is infinitely more miraculous for us to experience God work inside the laws he's created on Earth rather than for Him to not abide by them. Outside of this world God can do anything and everything, as I'm sure many people have posted verses from the Bible stating such. In this world, He chooses not to do so, outside of Him coming to Earth in human form as Jesus and raising from the dead. There are many example of this. Read about the 10 plagues of Egypt. Then find, somewhere on the internet, a scientific explanation of these events. Christianity and science should not be viewed as rivals. God is the ultimate scientist and His greatness is shown in all things of this world. An amputee regaining a limb would, clearly, not abide by the rules he created so very long ago.

Wait, all these Bible versus stating he does miraculous things, but an Amputee regaining a limb would not abide by the rules he set up.....which is it? You state two completely opposite things here.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

lol i bet you ten e-dollars godisawesome is the kind of person that spams various forums with their canned preaching bits thinking they've made some insightful posts and never looks back or bothers to respond, but reports that he has saved some lost souls to his fundamentalist church, where they then praise the salvation of the lost souls.

An amputee regaining a limb would, clearly, not abide by the rules he created so very long ago.

How about when people claim that god cured them of cancer? Or heart disease? Or tooth decay? Are you saying you do not believe in any kind of miraculous healings? If so, then the question of why god does not heal amputees is not directed at you.

An amputee regaining a limb would, clearly, not abide by the rules he created so very long ago.

How about when people claim that god cured them of cancer? Or heart disease? Or tooth decay? Are you saying you do not believe in any kind of miraculous healings? If so, then the question of why god does not heal amputees is not directed at you.

GodisAwesome is doomed! Among the rules _HE_ created is the one that says you must show respect by capitalizing _HIS_ name. GodisAwesome is destined for the eternal firepit for having sinned in teh most awful way.

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Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

In particular, please note the rules listed in the "posts" section. So far, your posts have been non-sequiters that add nothing constructive to the threads they are in. If you continue to post in this manner, you can be assured that your time here will be brief - and I'm sure that as a good Christian you would prefer to show us the better side of your faith.

I look forward to seeing reasoned and intelligent posts from you that are conducive to good debate.