I confess that the Adversary's origin is not as strong as I'd like, mostly for reasons Tomalak just pointed out. The gods as they are already have several beings working in opposition to them: the other gods. If the Adversary is too evil, then the gods become too good. I was trying to make the reasons for his fall morally vague. I think cov and Antithetist did a much better job of describing things than I did.

Man, did you know L4W has a creation myth? I had mostly forgotten.

Originally Posted by The Wiki

The first Aeon was Darkness.

The second Aeon, Light blossomed out in darkness, and Light outlined the Chaos from the Dark, and Chaos was all, and all was in Chaos.

The third Aeon, love was born, and separation was born. For from Chaos, Ge, the Mother, and Ouranos the Shining too, and one laid herself under all things, and the other embraced her lovingly. And the Chaos that remained was alone and furious, and stabbed Ge, and shattered her. And Ouranos embraced her and soaked in her blood and they were closer and farther than before.

The fourth Aeon, children were born from Ge and Ouranos, and they were mighty and beautiful, and walked on the womb of their mother and looked up at their father. But Chaos was cast aside and jealous and also gave birth, but though mighty his children were, ugly and angry they were, too. And while the children of Ge and Ouranos gave life and beauty to the soil that was their Mother, the children of Chaos brought darkness, and sharp mountains, and scorching fires, and chilling cold, and they excavated the interior of Ge with caves and rifts. And the Mother was in pain and cried and shook, and remembered whe she was one. And from her memory a light was born that was fair and full of life and her children called it Elysium and inhabited it, but then it cast a long shadow on the opposite side, and the children looked at it and it was gloomy and deserted, and they called it Herebos, and few of them ever walked on it. And then Ge was tired and fell asleep, and sad was Ouranos and followed her in her slumber to dream outside all that was, and they have not awakened since. And from their stillness the Cosmos was born, and the shifting Seas. Some say their dreams gave birth to another reality entirely, for which no name was found, sometimes simply called "That Which is Far".

Then came the first age of Mortals, first of many to come. The world was blossoming with life, and the young Gods helped it grow, each in its way. The dragons were the first to awaken in the Cosmos, and they grew great and mighty, closest to gods than any other mortal being. The Elysium shone like a glowing star, and its children soon walked the world, and even the darkes corners of the world were stirring, and the gods walked on the same grounds of mortals. But again, the Primordials, children of chaos, were jealous and moved to the Cosmos to bring ruin with them, and built fortresses and created servants to kill and imprison mortals, made of raw matter and pure life force. They dared not enter Elysium and Herebos, for mysterious were their lands, but Titans, and Giants their children, and Archons and Elementals were in Cosmos. At first, the Gods were pushed away, for no army they had, nor had they battled before, save for play. They established fortresses too, in Ouranos, Elysium, in the Shifting Seas, and even in Herebos. They started to gather allies among the most powerful mortal creatures, and even powerful immortal spirits. They eternal forged bonds of loyalty with Angels, and created fearsome Abominations to send against those spawned by the Primordials, desperate to take back the Cosmos. The war was the longest the World has since seen, and forever will be. In the end, the gods prevailed as the majority of the Primordials were destroyed, or retired in the eternal elemental storms of Chaos. The most powerful of the Primordials and their rulers, Arges, Gya, Kotto, Bryareus, Stheropes and Bronthes were cast down with all the divine might to the deepest abyss of Chaos, and there chained and sealed. There, their malice corrupted all around them and made their own prison far worse than ever would it had been. That was called Thartharus.

Anyway, as a mythology, I don't think we need the Adversary. But as an all-encompassing D&D setting, we really ought to have an Asmodeus-type guy.

Zal'Ekthees is a son of Lauto and the Maiden that was exiled from Lauto's court as he openly disagreed with his father on the issue of the undead, in essence he took his mother's side on that subject. After being exiled he grew to hate his father and he has begun to plot his father's demise and his own ascension although he is still in good terms with his mother, the Crone and sometimes will accompany her when she walks the earth

Anyway, as a mythology, I don't think we need the Adversary. But as an all-encompassing D&D setting, we really ought to have an Asmodeus-type guy.

Looking at the component parts of Asmodeous (D&D-style), we have an evil god of rulership, preparation, and civilization. Sounds like either Lauto or Juna, in their darker aspects. Why not cast the 'adversary' as a religion or temple, rather than a separate entity?

Also, the above story gives us titans (Primordials), and I think it fair to assume that both types of Immortals serve the Gods. So, the three sub-deific forces would be Angels (good and lawful good) Devils (evil) and Demons (Chaotic Evil), to use the 4e-system. (I hate this alignment system.) Does that work out?

Also, the above story gives us titans (Primordials), and I think it fair to assume that both types of Immortals serve the Gods. So, the three sub-deific forces would be Angels (good and lawful good) Devils (evil) and Demons (Chaotic Evil), to use the 4e-system. (I hate this alignment system.) Does that work out?

It makes sense, although that's backpedalling to previous editions' take on the Angels, since 4E recast them more or less as cosmic mercenaries (and just as likely to be evil as good).

As a newcomer to 4E, and a died-in-the-wool Planescape fan, personally I'm still having to try pretty hard not to reflexively hate the new cosmology (which seems simplified and neutered, to my tastes). So, well, a part of me wants to leap up in support of any suggestion that undoes the 4E flavour changes. But assuming that we want to take 4E fluff and expand on it, rather than handwaving it away, Angels should probably be found throughout all shades of the moral spectrum.

I'm also not sure that Demons belong in that grouping any more, either. The new fluff on them seems to cast them as more akin to elementals (of chaos and destruction), and doesn't seem to make any mention of them ever acting as divine servitors (one gets the impression that they'd be too busy killing and eating everything in sight to be a useful servitor to anyone).

I don't like that. Primarily because angels aren't good. They're servants of the gods. Most of them are marked as 'any' under alignment.

I like the idea that was proposed earlier of the devils being a separate evil entity. That leaves them relatively open. They may work with a god, but ultimately its for their own end.

That also helps keep our gods from seeming aligned one way or another.

This seems right to me.

Devils in 4E seem rather reminiscent to me of 2E Yugoloths. They strike me as essentially an independent force; yes, they're more than willing to hire themselves out if they see an advantage in it, but loyalty is an alien concept to them and ultimately they serve only themselves and their own insidious agendas.

I don't like that. Primarily because angels aren't good. They're servants of the gods. Most of them are marked as 'any' under alignment.

I like the idea that was proposed earlier of the devils being a separate evil entity. That leaves them relatively open. They may work with a god, but ultimately its for their own end.

That also helps keep our gods from seeming aligned one way or another.

I remind you that the above is in keeping with the 4e cosmology - which we don't use. We have cast out their gods, let us cast out also anything else we don't like, and use what remains as we wish. After All, 'devil' just used to mean 'Baatorian Immortal', right?

Originally Posted by Antithetist

It makes sense, although that's backpedalling to previous editions' take on the Angels, since 4E recast them more or less as cosmic mercenaries (and just as likely to be evil as good).

As a newcomer to 4E, and a died-in-the-wool Planescape fan, personally I'm still having to try pretty hard not to reflexively hate the new cosmology (which seems simplified and neutered, to my tastes). So, well, a part of me wants to leap up in support of any suggestion that undoes the 4E flavour changes. But assuming that we want to take 4E fluff and expand on it, rather than handwaving it away, Angels should probably be found throughout all shades of the moral spectrum.

I'm also not sure that Demons belong in that grouping any more, either. The new fluff on them seems to cast them as more akin to elementals (of chaos and destruction), and doesn't seem to make any mention of them ever acting as divine servitors (one gets the impression that they'd be too busy killing and eating everything in sight to be a useful servitor to anyone).

I, too, prefer planescape to the new cosmology. It's an interesting alternative, but too simple for any non-prime based game. It's more like the stories mortals tell each other about the planes than any real place (IMO).

I'm not sure what grouping you mean, however. I have begun lumping elementals in with immortals for 4e, rather than separating Demons out.

Originally Posted by Antithetist

This seems right to me.

Devils in 4E seem rather reminiscent to me of 2E Yugoloths. They strike me as essentially an independent force; yes, they're more than willing to hire themselves out if they see an advantage in it, but loyalty is an alien concept to them and ultimately they serve only themselves and their own insidious agendas.

All Devils in planescape (that I recall) served for their own purposes. Usually because they were forced to, or because they saw it as a path to power. After all, Baator and The Abyss were not ruled by Gods, but by Archdevils and Demon Princes. I liked the Blood War, and would like to use it in some form. It could just be one powerful Demon Prince having an ages-old grudge with a particular Archdevil (something about a teddy bear? I don't know, they won't talk about it), or could be planes-wide.