on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard. i dont know if im explaining myself there...

others have rope hangers, but the route is overhanging , then vertical, then leaning forward. so lowering someone would drag the rope severely on the change of angle...

EDIT TO ADD: all this is outside... the gym has top rope anchors and leading routes with proper anchors at the top for lowering...

on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard

some routes just have bolts, no quicklinks or chains or rap rings or anything. actually thats far more common in the areas I climb than anything else.

on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard

some routes just have bolts, no quicklinks or chains or rap rings or anything. actually thats far more common in the areas I climb than anything else.

i have seen a few of those, but since i always carry some quicklinks, i put one on each hanger and rappel from there. if not, how would i go down?? the only other option would be to thread the rope through the hanger, which im definitely not doing...

If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine. If you lower it will quickly destroy your rope if you do it very much. You aren't the quicklink fairy who keeps leaving all the quicklinks all over southern Colorado are you?

If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine. If you lower it will quickly destroy your rope if you do it very much. You aren't the quicklink fairy who keeps leaving all the quicklinks all over southern Colorado are you?

hahaha, no, im leaving quicklinks all over northern Mexico

and im not threading my rope through the hanger and then rappeling from there, not even once.... id rather leave a biner if i was out of quicklinks....

If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine. If you lower it will quickly destroy your rope if you do it very much. You aren't the quicklink fairy who keeps leaving all the quicklinks all over southern Colorado are you?

You thread and rap off of normal hangers? Are you sure they aren't the metolius rap hangers?

It's much less preferred than through a quicklink, ring, or rap hanger, but you are highly unlikely to die. There's another company that makes hangers with a rounded edge, they're not rap hangers but they don't have the same sharp edge like the metolius ones. Not sure who makes them but those are fine for rapping through.

on the gym where i climb, we teach everybody to rappel and clean the route while rappelling. this is because it seems every route here has different anchors, some allow you to be lowered, some dont.

What kind of anchors do you have that you can't lower off of?

Jay

some routes have just 2 hangers with quicklinks set at the same height. others have chains or rings, but they are set at the top of the rock and not in the vertical face, so even pulling the rope after the rappel is hard

some routes just have bolts, no quicklinks or chains or rap rings or anything. actually thats far more common in the areas I climb than anything else.

If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine.

One problem with calling yourself a guide before you've paid the dues and put in the time traditionally required to earn that designation is that every time you advocate a rookie move like rapping through bolt hangers you're going to appear double the fool for it.

If you thread the rope through the hangers and rappel down you'll be fine.

One problem with calling yourself a guide before you've paid the dues and put in the time traditionally required to earn that designation is that every time you advocate a rookie move like rapping through bolt hangers you're going to appear double the fool for it.

Jay

I guess it shouldn't really come as a surprise when he is proud enough to post pics of himself using an ADT

It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. Either way, why should someone else have to pay to replace the stuff because other people won't just rappel when they're done with a climb?

I'll say again, "If the people who put it there did so with the assumption that it would wear out ..." then that's why. Each area has its own rules. Why are you trying to make the world conform to your idea of correctness?

Wait a second.

Aren't the 'people who put it there' ' trying to make the world conform to your idea of correctness'?

Not that I think trying to make the world conform to my idea of correctness is wrong. I practice it heartily. Someone has to maintain standards and bleed for principles. Of course, sometimes standards must be exceeded, and principle becomes only guideline.

It's in the balance - the offset balance between a painful fingerlock and an insecure dime edge.

In reply to:

j_ung wrote:Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

blueeyedclimber wrote: You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!!

cracklover wrote: What about if the poll is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

End of thread. The rest is ungentlemanly bickering and name-calling.

What if local climbing ethic is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

P.S. What are these 'rules' you speak about? Rules for climbing? Really?!!

The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems

Why don't you stop being selfish and holding up people in line while you set up a rap and clean? Follow local climbing ethics, its as simple as that. Many crag anchors are set up with the intention of lowering, its significantly faster which is a consideration that many of the developers took into consideration. Following some dogmatic practice in all situations in climbing is foolish. This doesn't have anything to do with gym climbers

The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems

Rumney Guidebook Pg 18 "Please use your own gear until the last climber of your party loweres off the route"

The fundamental problem with this thread, and this topic in particular, is that people keep referring to the gym and the crag as if they are the same thing. THEY AREN'T!! You can not take your gym ethics and assume they are the same out at the cliff. That is why we are being innundated by a new breed of climbers for whom convenience is high on their list of climbing values. Keep your convenience at your exercise gym where it belongs. Let'sbe honest...the one and ONLY reason someone would lower off the anchor instaed of rapping down themselves is because they are too damned lazy to do the right thing. we all know what should be done, to preserve the life of those "convenience" anchors, and that is not to toprope off of them and use them for lowers. Stop being LAZY you freaking turds!

RR - the voice of a bygone generation it seems

RR, the situation at the Gunks is totally different to that at many sport crags around the country. In short, while your ethic about never lowering off fixed gear is exactly right at the Gunks, it simply is no more applicable at Rumney (and many other steep sport crags) than a gym ethic is applicable at the Gunks.

Rumney Guidebook Pg 18 "Please use your own gear until the last climber of your party loweres off the route"

come back when you get a clue dumbass.

clean this on rap [image]http://www.deansplace.net/~grahamski/Summer%20%2704%20Roadtrip%20webpage/pictures/rumney/0506_rumney_bonsai.JPG[/image]

or this one.. climber in blue [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/Red%20River%20Gorge/IMG_1234.jpg?t=1273177353[/image]

if you are rappelling on 2 strands (obviously) and one of them is still clipped through all the quickdraws, why cant you just lower until you are at the quickdraw's height, and then your belay, who is now off belay, just pulls the strand passing through the quickdraws to pull you to the wall?? this is how i have cleaned overhanging routes. well, overhanging where you land 10 or 12 feet from the base of the wall. i imagine if it was a lot more overhung, it would ve more difficult...

Rumney Guidebook Pg 18 "Please use your own gear until the last climber of your party loweres off the route"

come back when you get a clue dumbass.

clean this on rap [image]http://www.deansplace.net/~grahamski/Summer%20%2704%20Roadtrip%20webpage/pictures/rumney/0506_rumney_bonsai.JPG[/image]

or this one.. climber in blue [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/Red%20River%20Gorge/IMG_1234.jpg?t=1273177353[/image]

if you are rappelling on 2 strands (obviously) and one of them is still clipped through all the quickdraws, why cant you just lower until you are at the quickdraw's height, and then your belay, who is now off belay, just pulls the strand passing through the quickdraws to pull you to the wall?? this is how i have cleaned overhanging routes. well, overhanging where you land 10 or 12 feet from the base of the wall. i imagine if it was a lot more overhung, it would ve more difficult...

and this got me thinking, how do you clean off a long roof???

exactly.. when it gets more overhanging and more traversing or both it is much safer and easier to be on belay. When you are rapping then you are required to trust a 6mm cord on a friction hitch to keep your ass off the deck. as opposed to your belayer lowering you down. I've been sport climbing for about 8 years now and have cleaned on rappel less than 5 times and those were dead vertical routes where the rope went over an edge and it still sucked.

Faster, safer, more convenient and the local ethic at MANY sport areas. 1 lower off per group is NOT that harmful to the gear.

exactly.. when it gets more overhanging and more traversing or both it is much safer and easier to be on belay. When you are rapping then you are required to trust a 6mm cord on a friction hitch to keep your ass off the deck. as opposed to your belayer lowering you down. I've been sport climbing for about 8 years now and have cleaned on rappel less than 5 times and those were dead vertical routes where the rope went over an edge and it still sucked.

Faster, safer, more convenient and the local ethic at MANY sport areas. 1 lower off per group is NOT that harmful to the gear.

i wish we had "local ethics" where i climb. here everybody does what they want to. the people i meet at the gym, or the ones who climb with me, i try to convince them to always clean on rappel, we dont have that many overhanging routes anyways and some very popular routes have edges where lowering would drag the rope, or 2 hangers with quicklinks at an angle that wont allow lowering if the rope is threaded through both...... and we are very few climbers, i think i know 90% of all climbers in my state, so lowering fast so another person can try the route is not really an issue....

so as you say, it depends on local ethics, and ONE person lowered per party wont do much damage...

i had never heard of the term before, but i did a search and now i know what it means. in fact i have used it sometimes to be lowered cleaning overhangs (lowering off my own gear, i have friends who dont like preplaced draws )