I feel I'm more qualified to comment on this topic as i've seen the inside of GKR. For my sins (lack of knowledge) I trained for a while with GKR and can honestly say the organisation can be enjoyable and good exercise HOWEVER it is not a martial art in the form I now understand proper training to be. Put simply the GKR syllabus is a watered down and cherry picked version of Karate as a whole. For me GKR is mainily composed of kids whose parents dont know better, adults who either dont know better (looks at floor) or want to do Karate without the difficulty/contact and finally my favourites: those on a power trip.

I can speak about GKR as a whole but can only really speak about region 22- Stoke on Trent. It is clear each Regional Sensei runs his (never her) region like a dictatorship with the same tactics doorstepping, low graded "sensei" etc so I think my R22 experiences will be pretty representitve for the whole UK. From what I hear Australia dont have as many problems with low grade sensei, probably as GKR has been in place over there for much longer than here.

"Another thing wrong with GKR is the "Non-contact" aspect.
This seems to contradict the very point of a martial art... and indeed, how can anything be 'martial' without contact?"

This for me was the major reason I left GKR. Firstly the average GKR karateka would be shocked if they ever got hit and would probably stop a CM short if they hit back. Much is made in GKR of controll but my argument was if in Kumite i stop short then in a real life situation I would instincively do the same. The answer I got was the scripted "that would come with more practice and controll"So in this respect GKR is not Martial

Secondly the Hipocracy of this GKR sales pitch really irritates me. I have seen many students visually surprised to see contact. This is the kicker, yes GKR is non contact except when it suits. I have seen the RS demonstrate stikes on his henchmen and have been on the recieving end. At my final grading I got knocked about in the Kumite (no big deal, just what I expected from any MA) afterwards a student said to me: "I thought this was supposed to be non-contact?!" I told her thats what they say, the reality is slightly different

While I obviously no proof I have witnessed the RS beat a teenage lad around the dojo for his grading. While I could accept a bit of contact, this lad was in agony and the parent part of me was absolutlety fuming and I was close to getting up and intervening...untill I realised the lads parents were "Sensei" and were shouting the RS on...GKR as a cult? I think so.

Overall the contact is not consistant, when the RS feels like it, at gradings, when sparring against certain "sensei" Yes but not in kumite during normal classes.

Sochin101 when I saw the timetable it made me smile as my honest first thought was "what you complaining about? An actual black belt teaching, and many brown belts! thats pretty good...for GKR". In my experience R22 has a total of 5 blackbelt, the Zone director, his wife (R22 "sensei"), the RS his teenage son and one "Sensei". Compare this to the total number of students in R22 around 800 last time I heard. So while some would say GKR is a Black belt mill the oposite is true, GKR keeps people training for years with the BB like a carrot on a string. It becomes obvious to any adult student that the only way to gain a BB is to apease the RS and take on the B/W belt. I bumped into the mother of two GKR students the other day and she said that she was sick of her children being ignored (not part of the in cowd) and that if it wasnt for the fact of the mass of money she had sunk into getting her kids to 3rd kyu she would take them elsewhere.

I digress...Of the "Sensei" in R22 a couple are able but most are piss poor. The highest grade is BB some are 5th to 2nd kyu but if I was to have an educated guess I would say the bulk would be (grits teeth) 8th to 5th kyu. While GKR would deny this I can honestly say I have seen 2 8th kyu students from my regular class become B/W belts. I wont name them but when they became B/W they graded to yellow belt-orange tab and they knew virtually nothing. This was the begining of the end for my GKR career.

More evidence... I was asked at 8th,7th,6th kyu to go on the sensei training programme and said outright that I didnt think anyone should be a sensei at that stage. I dont think I made any friends with comments like that...

Finally I atended a couple of those open senior classes. Well what a joke. The training was limp and barely involved anything on the syllabus. The thing that annoyed me the most was the class was split into two groups to practice kata. I was in the upto 4th kyu group...anyway we got onto saifa (needed for 6th kyu) and out of about 20 "sensei" only maybe 5 knew what to do, they were turning the wrong way etc. Then we performed Bassai Dai (needed for 4th kyu) and literaly I was the only one who knew how to do it. I felt it was embarrasing for everyone I felt like I stuck out because I actually knew what I was doing and for the "sensei" because they were actually copying off me. How pathetic that GKR would actually send these people out with less than 6 months of MA experience, how sad that they would actually go out and charge money for tuition when in senior class they were copying off a normal student...

I think GKR students dont care about Kancho's grade be it legit or out of a cracker. In GKR Kancho is built up to be almost like an ancient master but the reality is far less impressive, a step back reminds me of the previous comments about GKR as a cult and this unquestioning worship of the leader smacks of brainwashing.

I dont know how much good will come of contacting watchdog but I think people need some kind of heads-up before being fed this BS. Self defence consultant...dont get me started, any questions???

I feel I'm more qualified to comment on this topic as i've seen the inside of GKR. For my sins (lack of knowledge) I trained for a while with GKR and can honestly say the organisation can be enjoyable and good exercise HOWEVER it is not a martial art in the form I now understand proper training to be. Put simply the GKR syllabus is a watered down and cherry picked version of Karate as a whole. For me GKR is mainily composed of kids whose parents dont know better, adults who either dont know better (looks at floor) or want to do Karate without the difficulty/contact and finally my favourites: those on a power trip.

Nice summary. Welcome to Bullshido. Thanks for the post and the anecdotes. I've been contacted by more than a few people who echo much of what you've said.

It is clear each Regional Sensei runs his (never her) region like a dictatorship with the same tactics doorstepping, low graded "sensei" etc so I think my R22 experiences will be pretty representitve for the whole UK.

I bolded the part of interest... I've seen lots of female 'senseis' and 'sempais', and a few SDCs but nothing higher... are you saying that there's an anti-female vibe among GKR?
Claire (the SDC I quoted earlier in the thread as part of the MSN chat) had to move away from her family home to stand a chance of getting to RM. She hinted that she didn't a fair shake at her original region.

Secondly the Hipocracy of this GKR sales pitch really irritates me. I have seen many students visually surprised to see contact. This is the kicker, yes GKR is non contact except when it suits. I have seen the RS demonstrate stikes on his henchmen and have been on the recieving end. At my final grading I got knocked about in the Kumite (no big deal, just what I expected from any MA) afterwards a student said to me: "I thought this was supposed to be non-contact?!" I told her thats what they say, the reality is slightly different

Do you think this is because of poor control, or ego? Or something else?

Sochin101 when I saw the timetable it made me smile as my honest first thought was "what you complaining about? An actual black belt teaching, and many brown belts! thats pretty good...for GKR".

In my defence:
1] Most of them will have been teaching a couple of years at least; they started lower.
2] I have no problem with competent lower grades assisting... but why the black and white belt? Why not be honest?

Self defence consultant...dont get me started, any questions???

What 'self-defence' training did you receive during your time with GKR?
Anything specific? Or just kata bunkai?

Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.

GKR Tournament

Another thing wrong with GKR is the "Non-contact" aspect.
This seems to contradict the very point of a martial art... and indeed, how can anything be 'martial' without contact?

So, with this in mind, I 'acquired' a flyer distributed within GKR circles advertising a non-contact tournament.
After reading this contradictory information, I was filled with consternation and confusion, I thought I'd best email GKR themselves and get the 'official' word.

My queries are first, followed by his replies.

Sadly, Jason chose not to reply to this. I do intend to visit this tournament. I will re-email him with my thoughts.
Oh, the flyer? Please note, this is a GKR only tournament.

Spoiler:

Hi guys, I'm new so I just thought I'd start off with a nice hello....

I hope you enjoyed the tournament on Sunday if you did manage to visit, I'm a GKR Instructor and have been for almost four years, but been training in Go-Kan-Ryu for 5.

There is, as most mention, a lot of controversy over the way the club is run and it does have a high impact on how others view you, however, I enjoy taking part and, without being egotistical (think I spelt that right) I'm not bad at what I do.

It is a good basic style Karate that you can then mould to your own understanding as you progress through your journey, and is very rewarding too.

I participated in the Instructor devision on Sunday and the standard, I thought, was pretty good (basing my judgement on other styles and compititions).

I also do Wado-Ryu and find that the two styles have a lot in common, they are different of course but the underlying fundamental foundations are still the same, and I beleive this may be the same for othes.

If any one has any questions the'd like to ask me then please feel welcome.

Hi guys, I'm new so I just thought I'd start off with a nice hello....

Hi, welcome to the site, and thanks for posting.

I hope you enjoyed the tournament on Sunday if you did manage to visit, I'm a GKR Instructor and have been for almost four years, but been training in Go-Kan-Ryu for 5.

I managed to sneak in. Watched the later bouts and the team kumite. Oh, and the ladies' kata which was to the right of where the guys were fighting...

There is, as most mention, a lot of controversy over the way the club is run and it does have a high impact on how others view you, however, I enjoy taking part and, without being egotistical (think I spelt that right) I'm not bad at what I do.

It is a good basic style Karate that you can then mould to your own understanding as you progress through your journey, and is very rewarding too.

That's true of any style of karate. The difference with GKR is the 'hiding' of an instructor's real grade and the door to door sales.
Oh, and the non-contact aspect, which seems to confuse even the instructors... and judges during the tournament.
I didn't see every fight yesterday, but I only saw one technique scored that didn't actually land.

I participated in the Instructor devision on Sunday and the standard, I thought, was pretty good (basing my judgement on other styles and compititions).

There were two or three guys I thought looked decent, within the rule-set.
Blonde guy, shaved head, fought southpaw/right lead; lanky-ish guy with blonde highlights was ok; and a smaller dark haired kid who got a decent smack under the right left eye.

Which one were you? I'll review my video and give you an appraisal, if you like :-)

I also do Wado-Ryu and find that the two styles have a lot in common, they are different of course but the underlying fundamental foundations are still the same, and I beleive this may be the same for othes.

How do you find the contact is different between your Wado Ryu and GKR?
Also, I thought GKR discouraged training in other arts?

If any one has any questions the'd like to ask me then please feel welcome.

I have questions, and it would be great if you could answer them.

You're an instructor... how do you teach self-defence in your club?

Do you stick to the GKR lesson plan?

Do you stick to the non-contact in your classes?
What about training with other instructors?

Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.

Re: GKR Tournament

Hello again, and thanks for the welcome.. I'm still having trouble trying to figure out how to multi quote so I'll try to remember each point in order.

Firstly, with regards to the instructors belt, I agree that this is a little misleading as I myself was under this very impression when I first started, however, when I asked my Instructor he didn't say he was a black belt but also wouldn't tell me what grade he was other than it was a high grade. I can understand the reason why we are not to disclose our grade just due to how your are accepted as an instructor. I, on the other hand, if I'm asked, quite openly tell my students if they want to know just because that is what I beleive and they respect and accept that about me which is a good thing.

Secondly, with regards to the contact side of things there is contact but not that which is defind as being without touch. In senior class we block, kick & punch each other like theres no tomorrow, but we do it with control so we only just make contact with the target area before we pull back. As for my class, I teach my students (or try to) the same control by doing partner work, when it comes to kumite I always instruct to start at 25% and to work with your partner to build it up from there. The higher grade you are the less protective we become on the definition of contact just being down to the skill we all learn through the time it takes to have control. Wado-Ryu kumite is very similar as we are always asked to watch our control, however, depending who you are sparing against we are allowed to go the distance once into it, I've had many a good sparing in both clubs.

GKR class format... well what can I say, it's like most others i.e. you do your line work, work on your grade kata and then do kumite.. you don't have to stick so stringently on this as the more experienced you become the more flexible it becomes, so just as long as you stick the foundations and don't stray too far a field. Besides, can you imagine how boreing it would be doing the exact same thing every single week... not how I want to learn but I do agree with at least one v. strict formated class once a month, usually just before grading.

Further to the tournament, I was on ring 3, tall, well built blond male.. I think I was the only blond there but can't be sure... I came 3rd in Kata and almost got disqualified in kumite.. my own fault, I went in too strong and the guy ended up flying out of the ring.. I should have done a lot better cos I'm more than capable so will just have to keep trying eh! All my students who entered all got medals and I.m really pleased for them, was a really good day and is a bonus if all of from my do-jo got medals.

Finally, about GKR not wanting you to train in other styles, Iv'e been doing martial arts for 5 1/2 years and think you get to a point where you need to broaden your horizons a little. It is good to have an open mind and not keep everything black and white. I don't make it obvious that I do two styles as I do my best to keep the two seperate, I find that being able to do two styles at once is a good acheivement. However, should my Sensei ask then I shall tell, I do not work for GKR I voulenteer.. I get my training for free so in return I make them money by running a do-jo, which is fine by me.. If I am asked to stop my Wado-Ryu then it would be GKR that I leave just do to the fact it is my choice how I train. The Wado-Ryu club I go to are fine about it, actually they say they aee a lot of potential and are grading me every three months to get to the level I'm at now (3rd), so I'm really hoping to have my 1st dan in both styles within the next 2 1/2 to 3 years.

I look forward to your critisism when you re-view your recording of the tournament, your honest thoughts would be most appreciated.

sochin101-I wouldnt go as fa as to say GKR is ani-female but the fact is the last time I checked there werent any above "Sensei" level.

As for the contact...I think its ego. The "sensei" involved liked to demonstrate what he was capable of which is funny against an exhausted opponent after an hour and half of grading. Also he was annoyed when I smacked (like for like) him back warning me I made contact...

About the region timetable, Some regions within the UK have been around longer and have naturally longer term "sensei" to train. Admitedly R22 is newish (6 years?) but only one student from the region has made it to BB in all this time. The other BB's are from other regions.

Self defence- virtually nil. The only time SD was covered it was taught by an instructor sort of off the record from training he had recieved elsewhere and in hindsight was a idiots guide to jujitsu. Kata bunkai is virtually non-existant and I really wonder how much the RS actually knows or passes on.

Sparkie101- you say GKR is a good basic style and I have to take issue- GKR is basic to the point of being stupid. Honestly what new techniques are there to learn after 7th KYUs Haito, shuto etc? Would it surprise anyone here to know virtually all of GKRs syllabus is taught at 7th KYU level and then "perfected" for the next years. A very wise karate instructor (not GKR) asked me if in my GKR training I had learnt year one, then year two etc or had learnt year one over and over. The answer was the same over and over. In honesty you sound like you actually try to give your students a varied lesson but for everyone like you there are 10 green belt "sensei" that just follow the same old "right arm out- chudan tzuki" type lesson (GKR students will get it!)

The problem with the instructors hiding their real grade is that you get people like myself that remember when these "sensei" were white belts. It kind of ruines the mistique when you remember a student that wouldnt say boo and now demands respect because they went on a STP course... I love Karate and couldnt understand in all the years I hope to train that I would decide after 12 weeks from begining that I would spend the rest of my Karate career as a "sensei". GKR is exploiting these people. And while i'm on the subject of these "sensei" (I knew more would come to me) I remember certain "sensei" going from yellow belt to B/W in 6 weeks. And again without naming names I am aware of one GKR "sensei" in R22 with a criminal record.

Obviosly I cant speak for your region Sparkie101 and by the sound of it, it is much better than R22. Towards the end of GKR for me I started training elsewhere I told my sensei and he told me it was frowned upon and that I would be unwise to tell anyone else. I'm sure the opinion is that if a GKR student begins training elsewhere as well the RS has to be informed because of the different influences it would put into the students style. I think the real reason is far different.

Hello again, and thanks for the welcome.. I'm still having trouble trying to figure out how to multi quote so I'll try to remember each point in order.

You can use [quo te] without the spaces [/quo te] and copy/paste text in between.

Firstly, with regards to the instructors belt, I agree that this is a little misleading as I myself was under this very impression when I first started, however, when I asked my Instructor he didn't say he was a black belt but also wouldn't tell me what grade he was other than it was a high grade. I can understand the reason why we are not to disclose our grade just due to how your are accepted as an instructor. I, on the other hand, if I'm asked, quite openly tell my students if they want to know just because that is what I beleive and they respect and accept that about me which is a good thing.

How many people come go to a GKR class and know the difference between the black white and the black belt?
How many of those people have already paid their membership fee?
Would they ask for their money back if they were being taught by a blue belt, do you think?

Secondly, with regards to the contact side of things there is contact but not that which is defind as being without touch. In senior class we block, kick & punch each other like theres no tomorrow, but we do it with control so we only just make contact with the target area before we pull back. As for my class, I teach my students (or try to) the same control by doing partner work, when it comes to kumite I always instruct to start at 25% and to work with your partner to build it up from there. The higher grade you are the less protective we become on the definition of contact just being down to the skill we all learn through the time it takes to have control.

Some contact does not equal 'no contact'. Do you not think that it's misleading to call a martial art 'no contact' only for it to be at the discretion of the instructor?
I have no problem with 'some contact' or 'progressive contact'... I jsut have a problem with it being advertised as non contact when it clearly isn't, as most people would understand it.

Wado-Ryu kumite is very similar as we are always asked to watch our control, however, depending who you are sparing against we are allowed to go the distance once into it, I've had many a good sparing in both clubs.

How would you compare the two styles? If you had to compare grade against grade in Wado & GKR... which of the two clubs demonstrates the best techniques? What about control?

Further to the tournament, I was on ring 3, tall, well built blond male.. I think I was the only blond there but can't be sure... I came 3rd in Kata and almost got disqualified in kumite.. my own fault, I went in too strong and the guy ended up flying out of the ring.. I should have done a lot better cos I'm more than capable so will just have to keep trying eh! All my students who entered all got medals and I.m really pleased for them, was a really good day and is a bonus if all of from my do-jo got medals.

There was a very good atmosphere there, lots of very happy people with tons of medals. Looked like a lot of fun was had.
Where's your club?

Finally, about GKR not wanting you to train in other styles, Iv'e been doing martial arts for 5 1/2 years and think you get to a point where you need to broaden your horizons a little. It is good to have an open mind and not keep everything black and white.

Other than instructor belts ;-)

I don't make it obvious that I do two styles as I do my best to keep the two seperate, I find that being able to do two styles at once is a good acheivement. However, should my Sensei ask then I shall tell, I do not work for GKR I voulenteer.. I get my training for free so in return I make them money by running a do-jo, which is fine by me.. If I am asked to stop my Wado-Ryu then it would be GKR that I leave just do to the fact it is my choice how I train. The Wado-Ryu club I go to are fine about it, actually they say they aee a lot of potential and are grading me every three months to get to the level I'm at now (3rd), so I'm really hoping to have my 1st dan in both styles within the next 2 1/2 to 3 years.

You don't get uchi/soto uke mixed up? Wado switches them compared to GKR, I seem to recall.
Good on you for training something other than GKR.

I look forward to your critisism when you re-view your recording of the tournament, your honest thoughts would be most appreciated.

Ring three... was that far left?
I mainly concentrated on the centre ring during the instructor and the team events.

So, further questions:

1] Do you specifically train self-defence, or is it mainly from kata bunkai?

2] What grade were you when you started teaching?

Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.

Re: GKR

You have a lot of valid points and I can understand your fustration, as well as others, at the way GKR treats people and uses them to their advantage. The only thing I can say in defence is that I'm a 1 in one hundred statistic that actually benefits from GKR (statistic pulled from air). I like what I do, I may not agree with the way things are done but I myself have bee tempted to join full time, however, selfishness apart, I have a 19 month old daughter and need security rather than a commission only basis for my income.

I work as an underwriter as my main job and started, as most, by a knock at the door. I went every week for about three months (at which point I was 7th Kyu) before being asked to take pare within the STP. After my training ande writen exam (just a basic questionnaire on basic teq) I got my black & white, for a whole 18 mths I trained solid, every single day, yes, EVERY single day.. it was my life, it gave me purpose while I was recovering from my first long term relationship (no sob story, the bitch was fcuk'd up).

I love Karate and I'll never stop training to better myself in the art of understanding, meditation and true focus on being "like water". I hope, through understanding, you can understand what GKR can mean to some people and to maybe view it in a different aspect rather than the majority, which, unfortunately, is the case.