He's out of a seat for 2013, even the test driver roles are limited. He's said he doesn't want to race in any other category even though he won't be in F1 and because of that by next year he'll have had no race or test time at all. No team will risk him over a guy who raced this year. There is more and more talent coming up every year, more drivers looking to get into F1 and the window will only narrow for him. That no team wanted him this year says a lot IMO. He isn't valued enough by F1 bosses to be in F1 anymore. It's harsh but that's the card life has dealt him.

I doubt he'll get back into F1 really. If teams wanted him, they would have signed him up for this year. So unless he manages to secure some financial backing, which was one of the reasons he might have been passed over for a seat, I see no reason for teams to give him a second shot. Once you leave F1, it's unlikely you'll get back in. Unless you're a WDC or have been proven to have some serious talent. Especially with all the new kids from GP2 and other formuales.

I personally never rated Kobayashi that highly. I think he was a good driver, but I never saw the potential in him to go on to win championships like I do in people like Hulkenburg, or Maldonado. He seemed to me to lack that tiny extra bit that separates the good drivers, from the very good.

why not? if kathikeyan could do it, why can't kamui? oh right, MONEY! as long as there are cash-strapped teams, there will always be cucumber!

No.

Given there was a seat available at Caterham at the point Kobayashi announced he had given up on a 2013 drive it looks pretty clear Kamui was never gunning from the smaller teams. He wanted in the Sauber, the Force India or the Lotus. Nothing else would do and when it was clear none of them wanted him at all he gave up. Both Marussia and Caterham would have jumped at the reputed $8 million Kamui had supposedly gathered himself. So he only has himself to blame for not being on the grid for 2013 for two reasons, 1. He didn't do well enough in 2012 to gather enough interest in any of the half decent teams and 2. He hasn't used his sponsor money to get a drive at one of the two bottom teams. A seat in F1 is better than an seat nowhere.

why not? if kathikeyan could do it, why can't kamui? oh right, MONEY! as long as there are cash-strapped teams, there will always be cucumber!

1. He didn't do well enough in 2012 to gather enough interest in any of the half decent teams and 2. He hasn't used his sponsor money to get a drive at one of the two bottom teams. A seat in F1 is better than an seat nowhere.

Since he was only 6 WDC points behind his promoted team mate, do you think it is much more reason 2 than 1?

_________________Science is about the natural world, things we can observe, test and gather data for. Why, then, do we teach that life on earth arose spontaneously from non-living matter in school science classes?

After Italy at least, Kobayashi seemed to have stepped up to try and lead the team past Mercedes, yet Perez didn't seem to do much. especially in the last 5 races.

I seriously believe that if for not the cluster**** that happened on turn 1 at Spa, Kobayashi would have scored his first podium there and solidified his dominance over Perez. As well, I believe Alonso would have been WDC this year. Then again, this is all just.... "what ifs".

why not? if kathikeyan could do it, why can't kamui? oh right, MONEY! as long as there are cash-strapped teams, there will always be cucumber!

No.

Given there was a seat available at Caterham at the point Kobayashi announced he had given up on a 2013 drive it looks pretty clear Kamui was never gunning from the smaller teams. He wanted in the Sauber, the Force India or the Lotus. Nothing else would do and when it was clear none of them wanted him at all he gave up. Both Marussia and Caterham would have jumped at the reputed $8 million Kamui had supposedly gathered himself. So he only has himself to blame for not being on the grid for 2013 for two reasons, 1. He didn't do well enough in 2012 to gather enough interest in any of the half decent teams and 2. He hasn't used his sponsor money to get a drive at one of the two bottom teams. A seat in F1 is better than an seat nowhere.

point taken and agreed... although what i don't agree with other people here saying that once he's out, he can't come back. that's why brought up karthikeyan. he's been in and out of F1 for how many seasons and still he kept up pace with de la rosa.

why not? if kathikeyan could do it, why can't kamui? oh right, MONEY! as long as there are cash-strapped teams, there will always be cucumber!

No.

Given there was a seat available at Caterham at the point Kobayashi announced he had given up on a 2013 drive it looks pretty clear Kamui was never gunning from the smaller teams. He wanted in the Sauber, the Force India or the Lotus. Nothing else would do and when it was clear none of them wanted him at all he gave up. Both Marussia and Caterham would have jumped at the reputed $8 million Kamui had supposedly gathered himself. So he only has himself to blame for not being on the grid for 2013 for two reasons, 1. He didn't do well enough in 2012 to gather enough interest in any of the half decent teams and 2. He hasn't used his sponsor money to get a drive at one of the two bottom teams. A seat in F1 is better than an seat nowhere.

Not sure about this now that we've seen how Caterham treated Kovalainen, who did a good job for the team from 2010-2012. Kobayashi could easily have become a nice little earner for the team and after that, regardless of how good his performances, bye bye. The way they treated Heikki proved that. I think holding on and hoping that a midfield team would have him back in 2014 is a very long shot, but still better than blowing it all on Caterham and conceivably being in the same position as now 12 months later, and having to start all over again. Better to be a pay driver further up the grid at least where the talent will be appreciated more.

_________________"Jean Alesi is using the Maginot Line policy-You shall not pass!"-Murray Walker

What are you on? If you see Kobayashi on the same level or even close to as Montoya, you need to go seek some help. Not in a gazillion years are they in the same league. Even Helen Keller can see this.

Kobayashi was no Montoya, but still a loss to the sport given his popularity. I don't think he has a future in F1 though, he didn't make a big enough impact on the teams, only the fans I believe.

It does seem harsh that he was only 6 points behind his teammate (would only have been 2 points if he had been more patient trying to pass Schumi in Brazil), and his teammate goes to McLaren and he doesn't get a drive.

The trouble is, in F1 at the moment, you have proven drivers in the top 5 teams, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes, Lotus, and the rest of the grid is filled with unseasoned rookies. So noone really knows how good half the grid is.

The only rookie/young-gun who we have any idea how good he is, is Grosjean. The rest have proved diddly squat, because they have been racing against teammates who have proved diddly squat in cars we have no idea how good they are.

His problem is that he simply failed to put in drives that caught peoples' attentions and on the occasions he drove really well, he usually followed it up with less than stellar races. Just like Heidfeld, he usually did just enough to remain shy of doing terrible. F1 is a sport where eventually you have to show you've got it or you're out and it seems that without a truckload of cash he is done in F1 for the moment.

@ Jammin, the only way to prove to teams you are worth a shot is by putting in impressive drives of your own accord which is something I can't recall ever seeing from Kobayashi.

His problem is that he simply failed to put in drives that caught peoples' attentions and on the occasions he drove really well, he usually followed it up with less than stellar races. Just like Heidfeld, he usually did just enough to remain shy of doing terrible. F1 is a sport where eventually you have to show you've got it or you're out and it seems that without a truckload of cash he is done in F1 for the moment.

@ Jammin, the only way to prove to teams you are worth a shot is by putting in impressive drives of your own accord which is something I can't recall ever seeing from Kobayashi.

Brazil '09Japan '10 '11 '12Europe '11Australia '11

All spring to my mind. He wasn't one of the greatest, but at the same time was no slouch and is imo a better racing driver than a few of the drivers who have seats in 2013.

_________________There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

His problem is that he simply failed to put in drives that caught peoples' attentions and on the occasions he drove really well, he usually followed it up with less than stellar races. Just like Heidfeld, he usually did just enough to remain shy of doing terrible. F1 is a sport where eventually you have to show you've got it or you're out and it seems that without a truckload of cash he is done in F1 for the moment.

@ Jammin, the only way to prove to teams you are worth a shot is by putting in impressive drives of your own accord which is something I can't recall ever seeing from Kobayashi.

Brazil '09Japan '10 '11 '12Europe '11Australia '11

All spring to my mind. He wasn't one of the greatest, but at the same time was no slouch and is imo a better racing driver than a few of the drivers who have seats in 2013.

He had one decent drive last year then. Perez had three. That's why one is in a top car and one is out of F1 for 2012. He just didn't do enough to prove he'd be good enough in a top car. Simple as that.

His problem is that he simply failed to put in drives that caught peoples' attentions and on the occasions he drove really well, he usually followed it up with less than stellar races. Just like Heidfeld, he usually did just enough to remain shy of doing terrible. F1 is a sport where eventually you have to show you've got it or you're out and it seems that without a truckload of cash he is done in F1 for the moment.

@ Jammin, the only way to prove to teams you are worth a shot is by putting in impressive drives of your own accord which is something I can't recall ever seeing from Kobayashi.

Brazil '09Japan '10 '11 '12Europe '11Australia '11

All spring to my mind. He wasn't one of the greatest, but at the same time was no slouch and is imo a better racing driver than a few of the drivers who have seats in 2013.

He had one decent drive last year then. Perez had three. That's why one is in a top car and one is out of F1 for 2012. He just didn't do enough to prove he'd be good enough in a top car. Simple as that.

Which is 1 more good drive than either of the STR boys or Di Resta who all have seats next year supposedly based on results and talent. But that's how things work, not always fair and there's no point dwelling on might have been. Just pointing out a few of his good drives.

_________________There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

I really feel like Kamui is a guy who had/or let his best opportunity slip away. He gathered so much attention with some really good drives in the 1st part of the 2011 season, was a real passing master, getting the better of Schumacher on several occassions with some very nifty moves.

And then with the season winding down had a real weekend set up for glory at Suzuka when I believe he had his best Qualy, starting P7 in front of his home crowd with a lot of buzz.

But then basically from the very start, instead of getting a good start, he almost immediately began sliding backwards and quickly out of points positions, and never really recovered. Meanwhile, Perez, starting 17th, comes up through the field to finish 8th.

I kind of wonder if he had gotten that podium at Suzuka in 2011, rather than 2012, if he wouldn't have been in a better situation, especially in terms have having more sponsorship money onboard with him, rather than being in a position of scrambling to raise cash so late to grab a seat.

It certainly seemed to me that even though he had some very good results this year, that his profile on the grid was much lower, and only shrank more after Perez-to-McLaren came about.... It sort of felt like he went from a 'maybe #1 driver' to being the 'other' guy.... Probably not entirely accurate or fair, but there definitely was that vibe, and when it comes to getting a seat with a new team, I do think that 'image' and the sponsorship backing really can make a difference, especially with 2 fewer seats, and several more young drivers being promoted or pushed aggressively either with sponsor or engine backing.

It could just be my own impression, but it seems like KK got more play for less results in 2011, than he did with more points and better results in 2012. (Could also be that more guys around him did more to grab attention than they did during the 2011 season... certainly the points were spread much more through middle of the field... 9th place in the WDC had 42 points in 2011, and 93 in 2012, 10th was 37 points in 2011 and 63 in 2012. Maldonado's 45 points this year, only good enough for 15th, would have taken 9th place in 2011 by 3 points... So there is probably a case for more drivers, doing more to gain a team's attention when it comes to filling seats, meaning more options and more flavors for teams to decide among, making it more random especially when other issues like sponsorship backing are factored in. KK doubled his 2011 points, but a lot of other midfield drivers also had significant improvements as well.)

Last edited by Z3RoadstarTXF1 on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

His problem is that he simply failed to put in drives that caught peoples' attentions and on the occasions he drove really well, he usually followed it up with less than stellar races. Just like Heidfeld, he usually did just enough to remain shy of doing terrible. F1 is a sport where eventually you have to show you've got it or you're out and it seems that without a truckload of cash he is done in F1 for the moment.

@ Jammin, the only way to prove to teams you are worth a shot is by putting in impressive drives of your own accord which is something I can't recall ever seeing from Kobayashi.

Brazil '09Japan '10 '11 '12Europe '11Australia '11

All spring to my mind. He wasn't one of the greatest, but at the same time was no slouch and is imo a better racing driver than a few of the drivers who have seats in 2013.

He had one decent drive last year then. Perez had three. That's why one is in a top car and one is out of F1 for 2012. He just didn't do enough to prove he'd be good enough in a top car. Simple as that.

Which is 1 more good drive than either of the STR boys or Di Resta who all have seats next year supposedly based on results and talent. But that's how things work, not always fair and there's no point dwelling on might have been. Just pointing out a few of his good drives.

Next year we will find out how good a lot of these hotshots are. Grosjean Rd. 2 VS Raikkonen, Perez taking on Button.

It's worth noting that Maldonado, who people think is quite good, and probably is, when against Barrichello was actually slower. Yes he was inexperienced and still is but he was still slower. I'm not sure the current F1 grid is as great as some people think it is.

Next year we will get a better idea.

The current hiring and firing of all the midfield teams doesn't help trying to assess things.

His problem is that he simply failed to put in drives that caught peoples' attentions and on the occasions he drove really well, he usually followed it up with less than stellar races. Just like Heidfeld, he usually did just enough to remain shy of doing terrible. F1 is a sport where eventually you have to show you've got it or you're out and it seems that without a truckload of cash he is done in F1 for the moment.

@ Jammin, the only way to prove to teams you are worth a shot is by putting in impressive drives of your own accord which is something I can't recall ever seeing from Kobayashi.

Brazil '09Japan '10 '11 '12Europe '11Australia '11

All spring to my mind. He wasn't one of the greatest, but at the same time was no slouch and is imo a better racing driver than a few of the drivers who have seats in 2013.

He had one decent drive last year then. Perez had three. That's why one is in a top car and one is out of F1 for 2012. He just didn't do enough to prove he'd be good enough in a top car. Simple as that.

Which is 1 more good drive than either of the STR boys or Di Resta who all have seats next year supposedly based on results and talent. But that's how things work, not always fair and there's no point dwelling on might have been. Just pointing out a few of his good drives.

Believe me if I had any say in who gets F1 seats Di Resta would be out of F1.

It does seem harsh that he was only 6 points behind his teammate (would only have been 2 points if he had been more patient trying to pass Schumi in Brazil), and his teammate goes to McLaren and he doesn't get a drive.

It does seem harsh that he was 2 points ahead of his teammate (would have been more if he hadn't run out of fuel due to team's mistake in Brazil), and his teammate goes to Renault and he doesn't get a drive.

You know about whom I'm talking about?

10-6 in 200661-39 in 200760-75 in 200819-17 in 2009150-137 over 3.5 seasons

Heidfeld and Kubica.

Heidfeld outscored Kubica in 3 seasons. He scored more points. He achieved 8 podiums to Kubica's 9. Yet despite pretty much matching or even beating him, Heidfeld was out of drive at the beginning of 2010, while Kubica was driving for Renault with Ferrari contract in his pocket.

His problem is that he simply failed to put in drives that caught peoples' attentions and on the occasions he drove really well, he usually followed it up with less than stellar races. Just like Heidfeld, he usually did just enough to remain shy of doing terrible. F1 is a sport where eventually you have to show you've got it or you're out and it seems that without a truckload of cash he is done in F1 for the moment.

@ Jammin, the only way to prove to teams you are worth a shot is by putting in impressive drives of your own accord which is something I can't recall ever seeing from Kobayashi.

Brazil '09Japan '10 '11 '12Europe '11Australia '11

All spring to my mind. He wasn't one of the greatest, but at the same time was no slouch and is imo a better racing driver than a few of the drivers who have seats in 2013.

He had one decent drive last year then. Perez had three. That's why one is in a top car and one is out of F1 for 2012. He just didn't do enough to prove he'd be good enough in a top car. Simple as that.

Which is 1 more good drive than either of the STR boys or Di Resta who all have seats next year supposedly based on results and talent. But that's how things work, not always fair and there's no point dwelling on might have been. Just pointing out a few of his good drives.

Believe me if I had any say in who gets F1 seats Di Resta would be out of F1.

The problem is not Kobayashi, it's the culture where it's basically impossible to stay in the F1 midfield teams unless you beat your teammate.

Jenson Button would be out of F1 if he had started in the current era.

It's dangerous, and it's what's causing all this rash driving throughout the midfield and a lot of collisions, you lose to your teammate, you're out.

It does seem harsh that he was only 6 points behind his teammate (would only have been 2 points if he had been more patient trying to pass Schumi in Brazil), and his teammate goes to McLaren and he doesn't get a drive.

It does seem harsh that he was 2 points ahead of his teammate (would have been more if he hadn't run out of fuel due to team's mistake in Brazil), and his teammate goes to Renault and he doesn't get a drive.

You know about whom I'm talking about?

10-6 in 200661-39 in 200760-75 in 200819-17 in 2009150-137 over 3.5 seasons

Heidfeld and Kubica.

Heidfeld outscored Kubica in 3 seasons. He scored more points. He achieved 8 podiums to Kubica's 9. Yet despite pretty much matching or even beating him, Heidfeld was out of drive at the beginning of 2010, while Kubica was driving for Renault with Ferrari contract in his pocket.

The problem is that Heidfeld put in lap times at times where he had blistering pace yet could not maintain it and hence, I suspect teams took notice that perhaps for all his ability and talent he was never going to be able to realize it all to it's full potential and thus it is likely felt he is not worth the investment. Kubica on the other hand while not being overly impressive in the way of finishing positions and points, made more impressive moves while clawing up and down the field and the impression (whether accurate or not) was that Kubica was besting his more experienced teammate. Kubica to me seemed like he was never truly comfortable in the BMW's and then at Renault the car felt good to him but was slightly off the pace and other teams considerably out-developed them. Then he made the boneheaded move and took to rallying in tiny cars on unsafe road courses until he almost got himself killed. Sad but I feel that if he was indeed contracted to Ferrari, he'd have likely enjoyed many more superior successes in his career and he now has to live with that knowledge and thinking what might've been. I really like the guy but I have to call Dunce on that one and the teams are to blame as well as they should place clauses in their employees contracts ruling out certain things.

One thing I haven't understood is... why is sponsorship such a problem for Kamui?

Japanese companies have a history of sponsorship in F1, and given the passion the country's fans have shown for their sports stars when they are competing on larger and international stages (the amount of Japanese media and coverage given to Ichiro Suzuki and Yu Darvish when they came over here to play for MLB teams was overwhelming) that to me it seems like Kamui should be one of the driver's with the easiest time finding sponsorship. He doesn't have to battle countrymen for home sponsors like the British, German, Brazilian or Spanish drivers and he hasn't been regulated to the back of the grid where sponsoring him while driving a back marker could bring a loss of face to sponsors.

So why is getting backing such a problem for him?

(If its not wanting to 'play the game', that's pretty silly IMO, as pretty much everyone understands those are part of the rules of the F1 game... you either have to have ridiculous talent... or sponsorship support.... or a 'Godfather' that believes in the driver and is going to push him onto the grid... and even if you have the ridiculous talent, you're still mostly going to acquire and need that sponsorship or Godfather backing. A little like getting into a game of Poker, but saying you don't believe in deceit, so you're not going to bluff anyone, just rely on the cards dealt you and knowing whether to ante or fold.)

One thing I haven't understood is... why is sponsorship such a problem for Kamui?

Japanese companies have a history of sponsorship in F1, and given the passion the country's fans have shown for their sports stars when they are competing on larger and international stages (the amount of Japanese media and coverage given to Ichiro Suzuki and Yu Darvish when they came over here to play for MLB teams was overwhelming) that to me it seems like Kamui should be one of the driver's with the easiest time finding sponsorship. He doesn't have to battle countrymen for home sponsors like the British, German, Brazilian or Spanish drivers and he hasn't been regulated to the back of the grid where sponsoring him while driving a back marker could bring a loss of face to sponsors.

So why is getting backing such a problem for him?

Japanese companies did have a history of F1 sponsorship but that hasn't been the case for many years and they tended to back teams rather than Japanese drivers anyway. The Japanese economy has been stagnant or in recession for most of the last 20 years so there is little incentive to back a driver whose appeal (other than to enthusiasts) is primarily domestic.

It does seem harsh that he was only 6 points behind his teammate (would only have been 2 points if he had been more patient trying to pass Schumi in Brazil), and his teammate goes to McLaren and he doesn't get a drive.

It does seem harsh that he was 2 points ahead of his teammate (would have been more if he hadn't run out of fuel due to team's mistake in Brazil), and his teammate goes to Renault and he doesn't get a drive.

You know about whom I'm talking about?

10-6 in 200661-39 in 200760-75 in 200819-17 in 2009150-137 over 3.5 seasons

Heidfeld and Kubica.

Heidfeld outscored Kubica in 3 seasons. He scored more points. He achieved 8 podiums to Kubica's 9. Yet despite pretty much matching or even beating him, Heidfeld was out of drive at the beginning of 2010, while Kubica was driving for Renault with Ferrari contract in his pocket.

The problem is that Heidfeld put in lap times at times where he had blistering pace yet could not maintain it and hence, I suspect teams took notice that perhaps for all his ability and talent he was never going to be able to realize it all to it's full potential and thus it is likely felt he is not worth the investment. Kubica on the other hand while not being overly impressive in the way of finishing positions and points, made more impressive moves while clawing up and down the field and the impression (whether accurate or not) was that Kubica was besting his more experienced teammate. Kubica to me seemed like he was never truly comfortable in the BMW's and then at Renault the car felt good to him but was slightly off the pace and other teams considerably out-developed them. Then he made the boneheaded move and took to rallying in tiny cars on unsafe road courses until he almost got himself killed. Sad but I feel that if he was indeed contracted to Ferrari, he'd have likely enjoyed many more superior successes in his career and he now has to live with that knowledge and thinking what might've been. I really like the guy but I have to call Dunce on that one and the teams are to blame as well as they should place clauses in their employees contracts ruling out certain things.

Ralf Schumacher also scored more points than Trulli in 2005-2007, IIRC, but that didn't help him as he was considered to be rubbish - that was the perception.

He was dominated by Trulli in qualifying. Then people didn't seem to notice that he was much faster in races (after the first few where Trulli beat him easily), particularly in the wet.

What were the qualifying stats where Heidfeld and Kubica were concerned?

Does anyone know a website where you can get the qualifying stats over the season? F1Gamers used to, but it shut down.

Another example, Button has won 7 out of 13 seasons against his teammate. Ralf Schumacher won 5 out of 10. Nick Heidfeld won 8 out of 9 before being forced out. But Button is perceived to be much better than the other two, since he landed a great car.

Kobayashi was no Montoya, but still a loss to the sport given his popularity. I don't think he has a future in F1 though, he didn't make a big enough impact on the teams, only the fans I believe.

It does seem harsh that he was only 6 points behind his teammate (would only have been 2 points if he had been more patient trying to pass Schumi in Brazil), and his teammate goes to McLaren and he doesn't get a drive.

The trouble is, in F1 at the moment, you have proven drivers in the top 5 teams, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes, Lotus, and the rest of the grid is filled with unseasoned rookies. So noone really knows how good half the grid is.

The only rookie/young-gun who we have any idea how good he is, is Grosjean. The rest have proved diddly squat, because they have been racing against teammates who have proved diddly squat in cars we have no idea how good they are.

This. It seems like teams only care if you get podiums, like checo did