Transcript

LEIGH SALES: And earlier, the Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon joined Lateline from Canberra.

Minister, thanks for being with us.

JOEL FITZGIBBON, DEFENCE MINISTER: Good to be with you, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES: Based on the results of the recent Pacific Vision war game exercise in Hawaii, are you still convinced that the Joint Strike Fighter is the right aircraft for Australia?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Look Leigh, there is no doubt in my mind that if the JSF team deliver all the capability they have been promising, then the JSF will be just the right aircraft for Australia and will deliver all the capability we need to maintain air combat superiority.

The questions are, will it be delivered, and if so, when will it be delivered and at what cost?

LEIGH SALES: So did the results from that war game show that the JSF is equally matched with the fighters that China and Russia are using?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Well, what I have learned, Leigh, is the data from that exercise has been misrepresented. It wasn't an exercise about one platform against another. It was an exercise about other matters that I can't really discuss publicly. But it was unfair to interpret that exercise as one which sought to compare one aircraft against another.

LEIGH SALES: Four RAAF personnel and one defence intelligence officer from Australia attended that war game. Have you spoken to them directly to get their assessments?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: No, I haven't. I've now had two briefings from Defence and I don't mind saying publicly that I wasn't particularly impressed with the first briefing I received. I thought it left a number of questions unanswered. I demanded a more extensive brief, a classified brief, which I have now had and on that basis I am satisfied that the data from that exercise was misrepresented.

LEIGH SALES: What were the questions that were left unanswered from the first briefing that you felt needed follow-up?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: There were a number of questions posed by the media more generally that I didn't think were properly addressed in the original two-page unclassified report I initially received. And that led me to say publicly that I still think there are questions unanswered.

But thankfully, and I welcome the fact that Defence has since come forward with a classified version, a more comprehensive explanation, and I am satisfied that, again, the data from that exercise had been misrepresented.

LEIGH SALES: And when you say the questions were left unanswered that were raised by the media, do you mean about the performance of the Joint Strike Fighter versus other aircraft?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: The first brief didn't make it clear to me what the exercise was seeking to test and on that basis, didn't really answer all the questions that had been posed by public media reporting. But I've now had those answers fully from the second briefing.

LEIGH SALES: With the second briefing, does the information that you've got in that come from sources other than Lockheed Martin, who are the manufacturers of the Joint Strike Fighter?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: No. My briefing comes from the Department of Defence, which is of course a customer or potential customer, under the Joint Strike Fighter program. And I've got great confidence in my department and I know that they would not dare misrepresent the facts.

LEIGH SALES: But are they relying on information from Lockheed Martin or are they getting their information from other independent sources?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: They get their information from those who participated in the exercise, not only our own people but of course representatives of the United States.

LEIGH SALES: In July after a briefing in Lockheed Martin in Texas you said: "If I were a betting man I would say the Joint Strike Fighter will end up part of Australia's air combat capability mix." Is that still your bet today?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Absolutely, Leigh. Again, if it delivers all the capability it's been promising, it will be the right aircraft for Australia. But our planning has to be more cautious than that; what if it doesn't initially deliver all the capability? What if it delivers it very late? And what if the cost escalates considerably?

We might need, for example, to push some of our JSF purchases out to the right to accommodate some of those problems and do more in building our bridging capabilities. So the Opposition, for some bizarre reason, wants me to run out and sign up to the Joint Strike Fighter six months at least before I have to and before I've had guarantees to these, on these unanswered questions.

It makes no sense to me whatsoever, and I would have thought that they would have learned from all of their mistakes in Government, the mistakes for example like the Sea Sprite Helicopter debacle.

LEIGH SALES: So when do you think you will make a decision about whether we're going to go forward with the Joint Strike Fighter?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: We've had an air combat capability review and it will now form part of our white paper process. The white paper process will determine our strategic outlook and then inform our force structure and capability decisions. Therefore it will tell us how many fast jets we will need, when we will need them based on our current capabilities, et cetera.

So we will make some sensible and cautious decision about the Joint Strike Fighter as part of the white paper process.

LEIGH SALES: Will you release that air combat capability review? Because that could clear up some of the questions around the joint strike fighter's suitability and capability?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Yeah, absolutely. The review came in two parts. Part A dealt with the immediate question of the Super Hornet as a bridging capability. You know I was highly critical of the former government in terms of its process of acquiring the Super Hornet. It was a rush decision to basically save them some political embarrassment.

But based on the review, I am confident that this Super Hornet is a sufficient bridging capability and we as a Government are doing now more to give it more capability and paying less for the purchase. So we're getting better value for taxpayers' money.

And of course we will deliver part B publicly of the air combat capability review, but we will [release] it in our own time as part of the white paper process.

LEIGH SALES: I would like to turn to an incident a week ago in southern Afghanistan involving Australian soldiers and the death of a local governor, Rozi Khan. Is there now a definitive account of what happened?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: No, there isn't, Leigh. And as you know, the Prime Minister has put in a call to President Karzai to express regret at the loss of Rozi Karzai (sic) and others. And I've done the same thing by contacting the ambassador here in Australia who has agreed to pass on my own regrets to the Defence Minister in Afghanistan. I've also made a statement in the Parliament.

But we don't really know what happened, Leigh, and there are a number of investigations under way. Of course, we're participating and cooperating with those investigations and it's very important that we get to the exact facts, work out exactly what happened, so that we can ensure that in future we do better at avoiding unintended casualties.

LEIGH SALES: The incident occurred almost a week ago. You must have received the initial assessment.

JOEL FITZGIBBON: No I haven't, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES: You haven't received the initial assessment for something that happened a week ago?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: No, I haven't. We're dealing with investigations and inquiries that are taking place in one of the most dangerous parts of the world. The investigations are coordinated of course and I wouldn't expect to have any results from those inquiries this early.

LEIGH SALES: But when the military is involved in an incident, usually somebody is on the scene straight away to do an initial assessment ahead of the formal briefing. Are you saying you haven't even received that initial assessment?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Not necessarily, Leigh. Because when our people are out behind the wire and there's an incident, sometimes they remain outside the wire well beyond the time of the incident. So often these things are delayed by the fact that we continue to have people out in the field still facing danger. So these issues make it quite difficult.

LEIGH SALES: Can you confirm at least that the Governor was killed by Australian fire?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: No I didn't actually. I cannot confirm that.

LEIGH SALES: If that's the case then, why have you and Kevin Rudd rung senior Afghan officials, including the President, to express your regrets?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Because obviously people who have lost their lives, that very much allies of ours, and uncertain how the incident occurred exactly, it's obviously very natural for us to express our regret.

But I have not had it confirmed in any way that our Special Forces people were responsible. If they were responsible, Leigh, I can assure you that they always operate within their rules of engagement and it would be very much an accident.

But if that is the case, then we need to work harder to ensure that as best we can we avoid those things happening in the future.

LEIGH SALES: More broadly in Afghanistan, NATO's new commander there, General David McKiernan, says the international coalition is struggling to win and he needs more troops, and hopefully including more Australian troops.

Do you intend to heed his request?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Well General McKiernan understandably, and he and I are on the same hymn sheet here, he said we need more troops in Afghanistan and of course we do. Then of course he was asked, well, "does that include Australia?" And he naturally said, "Oh yeah, of course, I would welcome more troops from Australia. They do a fantastic job." You would not expect him to say anything less.

However, in my regular contact with the United States, for example, Secretary Gates and others, I can assure you that the Americans very much appreciate the substantial work we are already doing and fully understand that we're pretty much at capacity and we're not really in a position do more.

LEIGH SALES: Just briefly, I would just like to ask you about the Federal Police raid on the home of the 'Canberra Times' journalist Phil Dorling after he published a story claiming that the Defence Intelligence Organisation provide a briefing to you saying that China, North Korea and Japan are priority targets for Australian intelligence. Do you support that raid on his home?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Of course I am only involved in this because it was documents meant for me that were leaked. This is a hard one. I'm very keen to protect the freedom of the press. But the leaking of cabinet documents is a very, very serious incident which undermines the very foundation of our democracy and I think it's fair to say that if there's been an accusation of a breach of the law, a serious accusation, then we should remove ourselves from the process as politicians, and that the legal enforcement people do their thing.

And on that basis, I will leave it to them to decide whether to do these things and on that basis to justify their actions.

LEIGH SALES: Were you or your department involved in requesting the AFP to take action on this?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: I certainly wasn't involved in requesting action. And I know my office wasn't involved. Now I can't really speak for the department. I am not trying to avoid the question, but I simply don't know, to be honest.

LEIGH SALES: Joel Fitzgibbon, Defence Minister, thank you very much for joining us.