Well I couldn't find an "introduction" thread or forum. (Perhaps there is none? :O) Anyways i would like to introduce myself.

I am a Magician....

Greetings,

Don't you mean "Magickian"?

« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 09:05:08 AM by Jetavan »

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Well I couldn't find an "introduction" thread or forum. (Perhaps there is none? :O) Anyways i would like to introduce myself.

I am a Magician and Thelemite with a profound interest and respect for Orthodox Christianity.

You have some nice forums here, and i look forward to learning from you all.

93

Hi! Welcome to the forum.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean when you say you are a Magician and Thelemite?

It's not that I don't know how to use Google, but I'd rather hear it in your own words.

To me, a "magician" is someone who does card tricks and pulls rabbits out of hats at a children's birthday party. Slight of hand kind of stuff. Is this what you mean?

And I will be quite honest, I've no idea what a Thelemite is.

I do, but I am interested in what Babalon has to say in way of description.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Well I couldn't find an "introduction" thread or forum. (Perhaps there is none? :O) Anyways i would like to introduce myself.

I am a Magician....

Greetings,

Don't you mean "Magickian"?

No, i mean what i said. lol. I don't feel the need to distinguish between "stage magic" and "ceremonial magick". Considering that i'm posting on a forum of religious/spiritual subject matter, i think its pretty obvious which one i'm talking about.

I "do" magick. I defend the practice of magick, both as a psychological and spiritual system.

I do not pull rabbits out of hat's.

Okay, so what does it mean to "do" magick?

Please, I hope I'm not coming off as interogative, I just honestly don't know. I am going to assume that everything I've seen on TV is wrong, and I'd rather hear about your belief system from you than read about it online. I mean, if you're able to point me to some sources, I'd appreciate it and would honestly like to learn about it (I enjoy learning about different belief systems).

I figured it's better for me to ask, then to try to put any false prejudices/ideas upon you.

Thelema is a religious-philosophy founded by the late British occultist, mystic, yogi and mountaineer Aleister Crowley. A Thelemite is someone who adheres to this philosophy.

Okay, that tells me who founded it, and that it's a philosophical system, but what is it you believe?

I mean, telling you that the Orthodox Church was founded in 33 AD by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost doesn't tell you much about our beliefs, does it?

Oh, and to the others on this board who may know about magick or thelema, please don't respond to my inquiry. I want to hear what Babalon has to say about HIS beliefs in HIS words. After all, we can all be "cafeteria believers" at times.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 04:53:56 PM by HandmaidenofGod »

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

I "do" magick. I defend the practice of magick, both as a psychological and spiritual system.

I do not pull rabbits out of hat's.

Okay, so what does it mean to "do" magick?

Please, I hope I'm not coming off as interogative, I just honestly don't know. I am going to assume that everything I've seen on TV is wrong, and I'd rather hear about your belief system from you than read about it online. I mean, if you're able to point me to some sources, I'd appreciate it and would honestly like to learn about it (I enjoy learning about different belief systems).

I figured it's better for me to ask, then to try to put any false prejudices/ideas upon you.

Thelema is a religious-philosophy founded by the late British occultist, mystic, yogi and mountaineer Aleister Crowley. A Thelemite is someone who adheres to this philosophy.

Okay, that tells me who founded it, and that it's a philosophical system, but what is it you believe?

I mean, telling you that the Orthodox Church was founded in 33 AD by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost doesn't tell you much about our beliefs, does it?

Oh, and to the others on this board who may know about magick or thelema, please don't respond to my inquiry. I want to hear what Babalon has to say about HIS beliefs in HIS words. After all, we can all be "cafeteria believers" at times.

indeed! I too would like to hear it explained as I have never heard of it before today.

and Babalon, Selam and Welcome to the Forum

Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Well, i'm not going to enter into a lengthy explanation on the different schools of thought when it comes to "magic"... But in a simple, practical sense Magic(k)- "is the science and art of causing change to occur, in conformity with Will".

Through different classes of symbolism, often (at least in the systems i most commonly deal with) the Jewish Mystical tradition of the Kabbalah- and its corresponding "Tree of life", the Magician's reality can (theoretically) be altered to his or her desire through certain ritual processions.

Quote

Okay, that tells me who founded it, and that it's a philosophical system, but what is it you believe?

I mean, telling you that the Orthodox Church was founded in 33 AD by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost doesn't tell you much about our beliefs, does it?

Oh, and to the others on this board who may know about magick or thelema, please don't respond to my inquiry. I want to hear what Babalon has to say about HIS beliefs in HIS words. After all, we can all be "cafeteria believers" at times.

Thelema is Greek for "Will". The central text of this religious-philosophy, is Liber AL vel Legis or "The Book of The Law". The crux of this book, and the philosophy as a whole is stated in these two passages:

Quote

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

and

Quote

Love is the law, love under will.

Now, its been often over stated by other thelemites but "Do what thou wilt" is not a license to indulge in every passing whim' but instead, to find your individual path, purpose or WILL in life and follow that at to its end.

In any case, thelema is not to be interpreted by anyone but the individual and for his or herself only.

If anyone has more specific questions, be sure to ask. I'll answer them if i can. I wont be addressing any back-handed, sarcastic comments. IF you have a genuine question- ask it.

I "do" magick. I defend the practice of magick, both as a psychological and spiritual system.

I do not pull rabbits out of hat's.

Okay, so what does it mean to "do" magick?

Please, I hope I'm not coming off as interogative, I just honestly don't know. I am going to assume that everything I've seen on TV is wrong, and I'd rather hear about your belief system from you than read about it online. I mean, if you're able to point me to some sources, I'd appreciate it and would honestly like to learn about it (I enjoy learning about different belief systems).

I figured it's better for me to ask, then to try to put any false prejudices/ideas upon you.

Thelema is a religious-philosophy founded by the late British occultist, mystic, yogi and mountaineer Aleister Crowley. A Thelemite is someone who adheres to this philosophy.

Okay, that tells me who founded it, and that it's a philosophical system, but what is it you believe?

I mean, telling you that the Orthodox Church was founded in 33 AD by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost doesn't tell you much about our beliefs, does it?

Oh, and to the others on this board who may know about magick or thelema, please don't respond to my inquiry. I want to hear what Babalon has to say about HIS beliefs in HIS words. After all, we can all be "cafeteria believers" at times.

indeed! I too would like to hear it explained as I have never heard of it before today.

But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."

Well, i'm not going to enter into a lengthy explanation on the different schools of thought when it comes to "magic"... But in a simple, practical sense Magic(k)- "is the science and art of causing change to occur, in conformity with Will".

Through different classes of symbolism, often (at least in the systems i most commonly deal with) the Jewish Mystical tradition of the Kabbalah- and its corresponding "Tree of life", the Magician's reality can (theoretically) be altered to his or her desire through certain ritual processions.

Quote

Okay, that tells me who founded it, and that it's a philosophical system, but what is it you believe?

I mean, telling you that the Orthodox Church was founded in 33 AD by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost doesn't tell you much about our beliefs, does it?

Oh, and to the others on this board who may know about magick or thelema, please don't respond to my inquiry. I want to hear what Babalon has to say about HIS beliefs in HIS words. After all, we can all be "cafeteria believers" at times.

Thelema is Greek for "Will". The central text of this religious-philosophy, is Liber AL vel Legis or "The Book of The Law". The crux of this book, and the philosophy as a whole is stated in these two passages:

Quote

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

and

Quote

Love is the law, love under will.

Now, its been often over stated by other thelemites but "Do what thou wilt" is not a license to indulge in every passing whim' but instead, to find your individual path, purpose or WILL in life and follow that at to its end.

In any case, thelema is not to be interpreted by anyone but the individual and for his or herself only.

Very interesting, thank you for sharing.

Do you mind if I ask if you use spells or potions to conduct your magick? (Also, why is there a k?)

I have heard of types of magic that involves belief in many gods or spirits? Is this your belief as well?

In the Thelema philosophy, what is the basis of morality?

Also, what is your interest in Orthodoxy?

Thanks for your time.

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Do you mind if I ask if you use spells or potions to conduct your magick?

Well, no. Not in the sense that you would think. I don't have a cauldron where i boil frog legs and bat wings while whispering sweet hymn's to the "Night Mother". We leave those goofy things to the wiccan's and "witches". Lol i kid....Really though, im not too sure what you're asking and what you mean by "spells".

Quote

(Also, why is there a k?)

Crowley added it in his writing's to distinguish the spiritual practice of Magic, from Stage Magic.

Quote

I have heard of types of magic that involves belief in many gods or spirits? Is this your belief as well?

Eh, i have alternating views on this subject. I guess you could say i have both a monotheistic and pantheistic view on the whole subject. Sort of like how there are several components to the brain, but we still sum it up as a single thing. It all gets very complicated, and i don't pretend to have all the answers.

Quote

In the Thelema philosophy, what is the basis of morality?

It is an amoral philosophy. It has little to do with ethic's, though there is an interesting paper someone wrote on this subject titled: (ironically enough)

"The Ethics of Thelema"

IF you'd like me to email it to you, send me a private message. I have large scores of digital literature that im willing to give away to anyone interested.

“When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD…” —Deuteronomy 18:9-12a

Revelation 21:8 says of “…those who practice magic arts …their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur… the second death” (NIV). Those who practice witchcraft (sorcery) will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:20-21). These practices are anti-God and are in rebellion against Him.

I'm still learning about all of it, so I genuinely would like to know.

“When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD…” —Deuteronomy 18:9-12a

Revelation 21:8 says of “…those who practice magic arts …their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur… the second death” (NIV). Those who practice witchcraft (sorcery) will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:20-21). These practices are anti-God and are in rebellion against Him.

I'm still learning about all of it, so I genuinely would like to know.

Honestly, i suppose it can not be reconciled. As for being "anti-God" i suppose by that same token we could agree that our very existence today is "anti-God", due to Original Sin. I wouldn't be inclined to agree with this, for i have a different view- which explains why i'm not a Christian.

I (and thelemites in general, as far as i've seen) reject the idea of Original Sin. To a Thelemite, the codes of the Abrahamic religions (i.e. Judaism>Christianity>Islam) have been over turned by the coming of a new "Aeon". Symbolized by the Egyptian deity Horus, this new Aeon, or "Age" (if you will) is no longer captive of the laws of "thou shalt not". Instead we are held responsible for our own actions, and are required to seek understanding through our own path of trial and error. We (as certain thelemites will point out) shall no longer seek redemption or attainment through faith in the sacrifice of another.

Keep in mind, i am speaking from a Student's point of view- not a scholar's. Also, i am not wishing to lay any claims to objective truth(s) here. I am simply stating the most common (or at the very least, MY) understanding of Thelema and its place in the spiritual/psychological evolution of mankind.

So essentially, through certain mystical and magickal techniques- we come to a better understanding of ourselves and our place in this so-called "reality". We then go and attempt to make the best of it, and if you are able to help your brother along with you- so be it. This is what the Order of the A.'.A.'. is for.

L. Ron Hubbard studied at the abbey of thelema. If anyone take a bit of time to read bout the abbey of thelem and crowley, they will see a selfish sexual deviant who was more preoccupied with controlling others than any kind of actual spirituality. To put it simply, thelema is the polar opposite of Orthodoxy.

L. Ron Hubbard studied at the abbey of thelema. If anyone take a bit of time to read bout the abbey of thelem and crowley, they will see a selfish sexual deviant who was more preoccupied with controlling others than any kind of actual spirituality. To put it simply, thelema is the polar opposite of Orthodoxy.

It's heart-warming to see someone with conviction about their beliefs. I really do mean that. But....

Hubbard never went to the Abbey. I'm not even sure he ever visited Italy. There is absolutely no evidence that Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard have ever met on any occasion. The only connection between the two is through a mutual associate named Jack Parsons. This is what Crowley had to say about hubbard:

From an actual letter addressed to Karl Germer, from Crowley:

Quote

...Apparently Parsons and Hubbard or somebody is producing a moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts.

It would appear that he didn't have that high of an opinion of the man. Even without knowing him personally....

And on the subject of "sexual deviancy".. Crowley was a bi-sexual. Whatever your stance on sexuality is- it's up for debate. Also, i wouldn't say he was "preoccupied" with controlling others. While i do realize he had some very "d***bag-esque" qualities to his personality- as does any great artist- and up until the last half of his life he had some very sexist and racist points of view, i think its a pretty arrogant statement to claim that there is no "actual" spirituality in his writings. Obviously you are speaking from a point of view of someone who has not done their research.

I (and thelemites in general, as far as i've seen) reject the idea of Original Sin. To a Thelemite, the codes of the Abrahamic religions (i.e. Judaism>Christianity>Islam) have been over turned by the coming of a new "Aeon". Symbolized by the Egyptian deity Horus, this new Aeon, or "Age" (if you will) is no longer captive of the laws of "thou shalt not". Instead we are held responsible for our own actions, and are required to seek understanding through our own path of trial and error. We (as certain thelemites will point out) shall no longer seek redemption or attainment through faith in the sacrifice of another.

Interesting!

Are you aware that there is a difference between Orthodox Christianity and the West regarding the existence of Original Sin? I'm sure you can find various threads in here about that and so I won't detour the discussion in this thread, but I was just letting you know there are some interesting research topics and points of discussion!

Speaking of research, I couldn't help but notice that you have quoted a letter in your response to Ioannes. Because scholars do come to this site to conduct research, we do request our posters provide a source reference whenever quotes are used. Most folks link to a website, but if you don't have a website available to link the quote from, then a reference such as a bibliography in a research paper will be fine.

Because you are new, I wanted to let you know about this requirement here, as well as bring to your attention that if any of the Moderators post anything in Moderator Green, you are required to act upon the requirement within the time limit placed in the message, or face disciplinary consequences. Therefore, please take note of the following:

Please provide a source for the letter quoted, going from Aleister Crowley to Karl Germer, within 48 hours.

I dislike that this was our first interaction, but want you to know that we are a discussion forum and you will be treated as an equal here. Please review our Board Policies threads where the rules of the Forum are provided, and I am sure we will have fruitful discussions together!

« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 08:58:07 AM by FrChris »

Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Though most of the articles online that contain the passage i quoted, are usually pretty cheesy... But for the life of me, I can't find the original folio of the physical letters of correspondence between the two men! I'll keep looking.

Are you aware that there is a difference between Orthodox Christianity and the West regarding the existence of Original Sin? I'm sure you can find various threads in here about that and so I won't detour the discussion in this thread, but I was just letting you know there are some interesting research topics and points of discussion!

L. Ron Hubbard studied at the abbey of thelema. If anyone take a bit of time to read bout the abbey of thelem and crowley, they will see a selfish sexual deviant who was more preoccupied with controlling others than any kind of actual spirituality. To put it simply, thelema is the polar opposite of Orthodoxy.

It's heart-warming to see someone with conviction about their beliefs. I really do mean that. But....

Hubbard never went to the Abbey. I'm not even sure he ever visited Italy. There is absolutely no evidence that Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard have ever met on any occasion. The only connection between the two is through a mutual associate named Jack Parsons. This is what Crowley had to say about hubbard:

From an actual letter addressed to Karl Germer, from Crowley:

Quote

...Apparently Parsons and Hubbard or somebody is producing a moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts.

It would appear that he didn't have that high of an opinion of the man. Even without knowing him personally....

And on the subject of "sexual deviancy".. Crowley was a bi-sexual. Whatever your stance on sexuality is- it's up for debate. Also, i wouldn't say he was "preoccupied" with controlling others. While i do realize he had some very "douche bag-esque" qualities to his personality- as does any great artist- and up until the last half of his life he had some very sexist and racist points of view, i think its a pretty arrogant statement to claim that there is no "actual" spirituality in his writings. Obviously you are speaking from a point of view of someone who has not done their research.

I suggest you go do that, before making such bold statements.

Didn't know if you would get to this and was going to link it for you. The Parsons, Hubbard, Crowley debacle is one of my favs.

L. Ron Hubbard studied at the abbey of thelema. If anyone take a bit of time to read bout the abbey of thelem and crowley, they will see a selfish sexual deviant who was more preoccupied with controlling others than any kind of actual spirituality. To put it simply, thelema is the polar opposite of Orthodoxy.

It's heart-warming to see someone with conviction about their beliefs. I really do mean that. But....

Hubbard never went to the Abbey. I'm not even sure he ever visited Italy. There is absolutely no evidence that Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard have ever met on any occasion. The only connection between the two is through a mutual associate named Jack Parsons. This is what Crowley had to say about hubbard:

From an actual letter addressed to Karl Germer, from Crowley:

Quote

...Apparently Parsons and Hubbard or somebody is producing a moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts.

It would appear that he didn't have that high of an opinion of the man. Even without knowing him personally....

And on the subject of "sexual deviancy".. Crowley was a bi-sexual. Whatever your stance on sexuality is- it's up for debate. Also, i wouldn't say he was "preoccupied" with controlling others. While i do realize he had some very "douche bag-esque" qualities to his personality- as does any great artist- and up until the last half of his life he had some very sexist and racist points of view, i think its a pretty arrogant statement to claim that there is no "actual" spirituality in his writings. Obviously you are speaking from a point of view of someone who has not done their research.

I suggest you go do that, before making such bold statements.

Didn't know if you would get to this and was going to link it for you. The Parsons, Hubbard, Crowley debacle is one of my favs.

Absolutely, haha. I think a majority of his relationships were a bit ridiculous and comical. Sometimes due to others (hubbard in this case) but usually as a direct result of his Egocentrism.

Yes, as Father Chris said, although Augustine is a saint in the Orthodox Church, we do not accept his theory on Original Sin. In the Orthodox Church there is dogma (that which is our belief and we don't waiver from, i.e. Jesus Christ is the Son of God) and that which is theological opinion, a theologumma, if you prefer the Greek.

Opinions, are just like belly buttons, everyone has one. But just because you have one, doesn't make it right.

So basically the Orthodox Church's view on Augustine's writings of Original sin fall into the category of theologumma. Not dogma.

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Yes, as Father Chris said, although Augustine is a saint in the Orthodox Church, we do not accept his theory on Original Sin. In the Orthodox Church there is dogma (that which is our belief and we don't waiver from, i.e. Jesus Christ is the Son of God) and that which is theological opinion, a theologumma, if you prefer the Greek.

Opinions, are just like belly buttons, everyone has one. But just because you have one, doesn't make it right.

So basically the Orthodox Church's view on Augustine's writings of Original sin fall into the category of theologumma. Not dogma.

L. Ron Hubbard studied at the abbey of thelema. If anyone take a bit of time to read bout the abbey of thelem and crowley, they will see a selfish sexual deviant who was more preoccupied with controlling others than any kind of actual spirituality. To put it simply, thelema is the polar opposite of Orthodoxy.

It's heart-warming to see someone with conviction about their beliefs. I really do mean that. But....

Hubbard never went to the Abbey. I'm not even sure he ever visited Italy. There is absolutely no evidence that Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard have ever met on any occasion. The only connection between the two is through a mutual associate named Jack Parsons. This is what Crowley had to say about hubbard:

From an actual letter addressed to Karl Germer, from Crowley:

Quote

...Apparently Parsons and Hubbard or somebody is producing a moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts.

It would appear that he didn't have that high of an opinion of the man. Even without knowing him personally....

And on the subject of "sexual deviancy".. Crowley was a bi-sexual. Whatever your stance on sexuality is- it's up for debate. Also, i wouldn't say he was "preoccupied" with controlling others. While i do realize he had some very "douche bag-esque" qualities to his personality- as does any great artist- and up until the last half of his life he had some very sexist and racist points of view, i think its a pretty arrogant statement to claim that there is no "actual" spirituality in his writings. Obviously you are speaking from a point of view of someone who has not done their research.

I suggest you go do that, before making such bold statements.

Didn't know if you would get to this and was going to link it for you. The Parsons, Hubbard, Crowley debacle is one of my favs.

Absolutely, haha. I think a majority of his relationships were a bit ridiculous and comical. Sometimes due to others (hubbard in this case) but usually as a direct result of his Egocentrism.

I really think the man was truly the Andy Kaufman of the occult.

Al was showing charlatans for what they were along with the sheeple.

He was always the performer and magician, more in the stage tradition. I think that is his greatest irony lost on his "followers". He had more in common with the vaudevillian magician than any performer of "serious" Magick. The question always: how much of his life, his greatest trick, is smoke and mirrors?

More Marx (of the Groucho variety) than Mesmer.

A man of extremity and honesty and willing to go to extremes to help others find honesty for themselves. Like many of such character, he paid dearly for it.

I doubt his greatest sin to be ego-centrism, but rather hubris. It was unfortunate he was never able to find a worthy opponent, a friend.

Folks attracted to such people are rarely worthy of challenging their master. Who knows what would have become of good ol' Crowley had he ever found a man to fill his father's shoes . . .

After all in hindsight, his blistering critiques of his contemporaries all pretty much panned out rather prophetically. Crowley didn't place himself in too high esteem, actually not in enough. He thought nearly everyone was a brilliant and clever as he. On that account, as I am sure you painfully aware he was absolutely wrong.

Anyway, you might find such comments odd coming from a "Christian". And you ought.

I can't help but admire people who ruthlessly pursue their path and who do not suffer fools lightly, no matter how painfully it twisted and turned them in the end. If all we Christians pursued our way with as much diligence and effort, the world would change over night.

If his last words were indeed: I hate myself, he left us fools with one last trick to try to figure out.

L. Ron Hubbard studied at the abbey of thelema. If anyone take a bit of time to read bout the abbey of thelem and crowley, they will see a selfish sexual deviant who was more preoccupied with controlling others than any kind of actual spirituality. To put it simply, thelema is the polar opposite of Orthodoxy.

It's heart-warming to see someone with conviction about their beliefs. I really do mean that. But....

Hubbard never went to the Abbey. I'm not even sure he ever visited Italy. There is absolutely no evidence that Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard have ever met on any occasion. The only connection between the two is through a mutual associate named Jack Parsons. This is what Crowley had to say about hubbard:

From an actual letter addressed to Karl Germer, from Crowley:

Quote

...Apparently Parsons and Hubbard or somebody is producing a moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts.

It would appear that he didn't have that high of an opinion of the man. Even without knowing him personally....

And on the subject of "sexual deviancy".. Crowley was a bi-sexual. Whatever your stance on sexuality is- it's up for debate. Also, i wouldn't say he was "preoccupied" with controlling others. While i do realize he had some very "douche bag-esque" qualities to his personality- as does any great artist- and up until the last half of his life he had some very sexist and racist points of view, i think its a pretty arrogant statement to claim that there is no "actual" spirituality in his writings. Obviously you are speaking from a point of view of someone who has not done their research.

I suggest you go do that, before making such bold statements.

L. Ron Hubbard may or may not have visited the abbey, but he was involved with Crowley and did practice Thelema, even if only a short time, with Crowley. (Symonds, John. The Great Beast: the life and magick of Aleister Crowley, p. 392. London: Macdonald and Co., 1971. ISBN 0-356-03631-6)

Do not perceive to tell me what I do and do not know. You may believe Crowley is spiritual, I believe that was a facade. A made up story used to convince people to engage in sex orgies and other disgusting acts of sexual deviancy. If you call that spiritual, then yes he was spiritual, but only to a warped mind is Crowley "spiritual".

Yes, as Father Chris said, although Augustine is a saint in the Orthodox Church, we do not accept his theory on Original Sin. In the Orthodox Church there is dogma (that which is our belief and we don't waiver from, i.e. Jesus Christ is the Son of God) and that which is theological opinion, a theologumma, if you prefer the Greek.

Opinions, are just like belly buttons, everyone has one. But just because you have one, doesn't make it right.

So basically the Orthodox Church's view on Augustine's writings of Original sin fall into the category of theologumma. Not dogma.

St Augustine recanted many of his teachings at the end of his life, and even apologized.

L. Ron Hubbard may or may not have visited the abbey, but he was involved with Crowley and did practice Thelema, even if only a short time, with Crowley. (Symonds, John. The Great Beast: the life and magick of Aleister Crowley, p. 392. London: Macdonald and Co., 1971. ISBN 0-356-03631-6)

You keep emphasizing that Hubbard did things with Crowley. To which i must reiterate my previous statement:

There is absolutely no evidence to support that Edward Alexander Crowley and Lafayette Ronald (L. Ron) Hubbard have ever met on any occasion.

And for that matter, there is not even any concrete evidence that suggests Hubbard was a initiate of the O.T.O

The page of Symonds' book that you mentioned, contains a letter that Jack Whiteside Parsons' had written to Aleister Crowley- which I will reprint it here, for all to see:

Quote

..(Hubbard) is a gentleman; he has red hair, green eyes, is honest and intelligent, and we have become great friends. He moved in with me about two months ago, and although Betty and I are still friendly, she has transferred her sexual affection to Ron. Although he has no formal training in Magick, he has an extraordinary amount of experience and understanding in the field. From some of his experiences I deduced that he is in direct touch with some higher intelligence, possibly his Guardian Angel. He describes his Angel as a beautiful winged woman with red hair whom he calls the Empress and who has guided him through his life and saved him many times. He is the most Thelemic person I have ever met and is in complete accord with our own principles.

(Quoted in Symonds, John. The Great Beast: the life and magick of Aleister Crowley, p. 392. London: Macdonald and Co., 1971. ISBN 0-356-03631-6)

However, Parsons was leading the agape lodge in Pasadena - where hubbard fraternized with him and his then- girlfriend in hopes of making a "Moonchild". A practice described in Crowley's FICTIONAL book of the same name*- which as far as i know was never intended to be taken as a genuine practice worth pursuing.

(Pendle,George-Strange Angel: The Otherworldly Life of Rocket Scientist John Whiteside Parsons- p.269)

Despite Crowley's alleged warnings to Parsons' regarding Hubbard, Parsons continued to pursue magickal work with him.

Which resulted in Hubbard taking off with Parsons' money, and his girlfriend.

Still, if what you're trying to say is we should hold Crowley responsible for the actions of another who happened to have an interest in his work- then we might as well damn the primitive man who forged the first blade.

Quote

Do not perceive to tell me what I do and do not know. You may believe Crowley is spiritual, I believe that was a facade. A made up story used to convince people to engage in sex orgies and other disgusting acts of sexual deviancy. If you call that spiritual, then yes he was spiritual, but only to a warped mind is Crowley "spiritual".

Opinion, opinion, opinion. That's all fine. Yes, Crowley was a bi-sexual. Is that disgusting? I don't think so, but a lot of people would disagree with me, and i respect that (i guess). "Spiritual" is a pretty broad term, and you can pick and choose however you want to apply it- but yes i think he was a spiritual person who had (most of the time) some valid spiritual insight. That's my opinion (which in the long run, means squat) and that's where it stands. IF that qualifies me for having a "warped mind", then......

Yes, as Father Chris said, although Augustine is a saint in the Orthodox Church, we do not accept his theory on Original Sin. In the Orthodox Church there is dogma (that which is our belief and we don't waiver from, i.e. Jesus Christ is the Son of God) and that which is theological opinion, a theologumma, if you prefer the Greek.

Opinions, are just like belly buttons, everyone has one. But just because you have one, doesn't make it right.

So basically the Orthodox Church's view on Augustine's writings of Original sin fall into the category of theologumma. Not dogma.

St Augustine recanted many of his teachings at the end of his life, and even apologized.

Yes, but this still not stop the West from building a large portion of their theology around his teachings. I was trying to clarify for Babylon that the Eastern Orthodox has not done so, despite recognizing him as a saint.

(For the record, I do not believe our friends in the Oriental Orthodox Church recognize him as a saint, but I could not be certain.)

Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Now, its been often over stated by other thelemites but "Do what thou wilt" is not a license to indulge in every passing whim' but instead, to find your individual path, purpose or WILL in life and follow that at to its end.

In any case, thelema is not to be interpreted by anyone but the individual and for his or herself only.

What if one should find conflict between their "purpose" in life and their "will"?

Also, what if one sees the path they're on, sees the destination to which that path leads, and decides that they like the path but not the destination or vice versa?

Now, its been often over stated by other thelemites but "Do what thou wilt" is not a license to indulge in every passing whim' but instead, to find your individual path, purpose or WILL in life and follow that at to its end.

In any case, thelema is not to be interpreted by anyone but the individual and for his or herself only.

What if one should find conflict between their "purpose" in life and their "will"?

Also, what if one sees the path they're on, sees the destination to which that path leads, and decides that they like the path but not the destination or vice versa?

L. Ron Hubbard may or may not have visited the abbey, but he was involved with Crowley and did practice Thelema, even if only a short time, with Crowley. (Symonds, John. The Great Beast: the life and magick of Aleister Crowley, p. 392. London: Macdonald and Co., 1971. ISBN 0-356-03631-6)

You keep emphasizing that Hubbard did things with Crowley. To which i must reiterate my previous statement:

There is absolutely no evidence to support that Edward Alexander Crowley and Lafayette Ronald (L. Ron) Hubbard have ever met on any occasion.

And for that matter, there is not even any concrete evidence that suggests Hubbard was a initiate of the O.T.O

The page of Symonds' book that you mentioned, contains a letter that Jack Whiteside Parsons' had written to Aleister Crowley- which I will reprint it here, for all to see:

Quote

..(Hubbard) is a gentleman; he has red hair, green eyes, is honest and intelligent, and we have become great friends. He moved in with me about two months ago, and although Betty and I are still friendly, she has transferred her sexual affection to Ron. Although he has no formal training in Magick, he has an extraordinary amount of experience and understanding in the field. From some of his experiences I deduced that he is in direct touch with some higher intelligence, possibly his Guardian Angel. He describes his Angel as a beautiful winged woman with red hair whom he calls the Empress and who has guided him through his life and saved him many times. He is the most Thelemic person I have ever met and is in complete accord with our own principles.

(Quoted in Symonds, John. The Great Beast: the life and magick of Aleister Crowley, p. 392. London: Macdonald and Co., 1971. ISBN 0-356-03631-6)

However, Parsons was leading the agape lodge in Pasadena - where hubbard fraternized with him and his then- girlfriend in hopes of making a "Moonchild". A practice described in Crowley's FICTIONAL book of the same name*- which as far as i know was never intended to be taken as a genuine practice worth pursuing.

(Pendle,George-Strange Angel: The Otherworldly Life of Rocket Scientist John Whiteside Parsons- p.269)

Despite Crowley's alleged warnings to Parsons' regarding Hubbard, Parsons continued to pursue magickal work with him.

Which resulted in Hubbard taking off with Parsons' money, and his girlfriend.

Still, if what you're trying to say is we should hold Crowley responsible for the actions of another who happened to have an interest in his work- then we might as well damn the primitive man who forged the first blade.

Quote

Do not perceive to tell me what I do and do not know. You may believe Crowley is spiritual, I believe that was a facade. A made up story used to convince people to engage in sex orgies and other disgusting acts of sexual deviancy. If you call that spiritual, then yes he was spiritual, but only to a warped mind is Crowley "spiritual".

Opinion, opinion, opinion. That's all fine. Yes, Crowley was a bi-sexual. Is that disgusting? I don't think so, but a lot of people would disagree with me, and i respect that (i guess). "Spiritual" is a pretty broad term, and you can pick and choose however you want to apply it- but yes i think he was a spiritual person who had (most of the time) some valid spiritual insight. That's my opinion (which in the long run, means squat) and that's where it stands. IF that qualifies me for having a "warped mind", then......

Guilty as Charged.

To be honest, Hubbard is a saint compared to Crowley. If you are somehow trying to legitimize Crowley you are failing miserably. I am not even sure why you have come to an Orthodox forum like this.