personally, i think its disgusting feminists continue to support this woman. i think we should all just admit we were wrong. there was ZERO DNA evidence. ZERO. no hair, no skin in her nails, no semen, nothing. time to give it up girls, this girl was seriously fucked up. do i feel bad for her and life she was living, of course. do i think its an excuse to basically set the victims rights movement back ten years? no. thats how i see all this. unfortunately its the few and far between cases like these that get publicized and make women who ARE victims of rape even more afraid to speak out, and force them to go thru even more for people to believe them. and the fact is, those women ARE the majority.

and thereshegoes, most of the time when you hire a stripper, people dont specify, "oh yeah give me a poor black girl". to say that is really just ignorant. i dont necessarily agree with the sex industry in many ways, esp how it lends itself to these types of already opressed women being forced into even more of a quagmire, but lets be realistic here.

thereshegoes

Apr 18 2007, 03:19 PM

actually, i'm NOT ignorant. for what it's worth, i happen to KNOW you can order a stripper down to the texture of her/his hair.

kittenb

Apr 18 2007, 05:30 PM

QUOTE(katiebelle2882 @ Apr 18 2007, 04:20 PM)

personally, i think its disgusting feminists continue to support this woman. i think we should all just admit we were wrong. there was ZERO DNA evidence. ZERO. no hair, no skin in her nails, no semen, nothing...and thereshegoes, most of the time when you hire a stripper, people dont specify, "oh yeah give me a poor black girl".

Katiebelle, I think you are wrong on this one. I just spent some time working on a letter for my company to support her in a public way. The fact that there was no DNA evidence does not prove what many people think it does. Trust me on this one, I've seen it before.

And one of my major issues with the way that this is being handled is the fact that the victim here has not only been named publicaly, but her face has been plastered everywhere with the word LIAR posted right next to it. When the case wsa dropped in the Kobe Bryant case, the victim's name, though widely circulated, was not printed on the NY Post. And her face was never shown with such glee and vitriol. Both of these women have Wikipedia entries. Only the victim in the Duke case has a picture attatched. And it is total "mug shot" style picture that the media often chooses when showing African Americans.

As for whether someone can order a "poor, black girl" specifically when ordering a stripper, I don't know. I have never ordered a stripper. But what I do know is that the former prostitutes I have talked with all agree that the john's who use them like to call them "black bitches." There is a stereotypical fantasy of the wild, sexually untamed black woman that often comes out in the sex trade. And the men love to hurt the black sex workers.

ginger_kitty

Apr 18 2007, 06:41 PM

Don't be naive kaitebelle, you can order a stripper or an escort exactly how you want, everything from race to hair color to level of education. You're paying for a fantasy, they are more than happy to give the customer whatever they like. You should seriously apoligize to thereshegoes for outright calling her ignorant, when you clearly don't the facts.

And I think the case is important to the feminist world for obivious reasons which have already been stated here, but I'll repeat anyway. Should a rape victims name and idenity be openly exposed to the media? Why is the victim held to such harsh scrunity?...Among other issues.

Unfortunately, I do think this case may affect other women who may be scared to stand up and say they were raped. Which is extremely sad.

skinwithoutscars

Apr 18 2007, 06:51 PM

"personally, i think its disgusting feminists continue to support this woman."

if feminists don't, who will?

regardless of what you think happened, the fact remains, this woman is now and has been embroiled in a nightmare of a media circus. the pictures/mugshots of the accusers would have NEVER been circulated with the word Liar right next to them, and if they were, people would be quite quick to cry "poor white boys, you're ruining their futures!" what about this woman's future and the fact that she will now be known not only as a liar, but face people wherever she goes who think they have the right to question her about what will be/is undoubtedly one of the most painful episodes of her life? who think they have the right to judge whether or not she was victimized sexually?

like it or not, i think the exact point of feminism's existence is to prevent that very thing from happening. ever, to anyone, liar or not.

nickclick

Apr 19 2007, 07:24 AM

i don't even think anyone here or any specific feminist or feminist organization was/is specifically supportive of 'this woman.' i think we're supporting the idea that it's fucking hard to get justice as a rape victim, and especially when the dichotomy of racial and economic backgrounds is as such.

besides, let's consider the ratio of actual rapes vs. false accusations of rape, and the bullshit involved in reporting an actual rape. why shouldn't we believe the victim before dna's been tested and all the other evidence is revealed, especially when the accused have expensive representation and friends in high places to say whatever money will buy.

do we believe oj didn't kill 2 people because he wasn't convicted by our fair and always-perfect justice system?

yeah, and let's stick to using name-calling to our collective enemies.

katiebelle2882

Apr 19 2007, 08:18 AM

you know i take it back. i do think we should support this woman, however i DO think we should be coming out and saying that this is not by any stretch of the imagination what happens in the majority of rape cases. I honestly, for all the faults of these boys, believe them. and it has nothing to do with white/black poor not poor etc etc. it has to do with what i have read in terms of case. could i be wrong, sure, but i dont think its correct to assume that rape did in fact take place and everyone is conspiring against this girl to prove its not true. thats just as bad as assuming it didnt take place which is what alot of people automatically do when they hear about rape.

i do know people who have ordered a stripper and maybe its different around here but i have never heard of being able to order by education level. maybe the guys i know never asked?

i dont agree with her face being plastered all over the media. however, how is it any worse then these boys whose faces were plastered all over the media with the words "rapist' next to them. i think most people believed this woman at first, most people i talked to anyway absolutely believed her. for once i saw people rallying around the victim (even the was strongly for her!) and now she has been proven for all intents and purposes a liar. i am sorry, i think its a huge step back for victims rights and it sucks. i am just angry thats all.

and thereshegoes i am sorry, you are 100% right i just had never seen anything done that way.

its so ludicrous its really almost funny. i mean honestly do people take that crap seriously? i mean i am shocked hes ok with sending them to all male colleges bc what if that makes them gay?! GASP

thingsarenice

Apr 23 2007, 07:55 PM

This is coming in a little late, but in re the Duke lacrosse players, I heard an interview with the other stripper at the party and she said that the players had requested one white and one Asian stripper, and were angry when the women who were sent showed up. And according to my rape crisis training, the false report rate for rape is about 1-2%, or about the same as the false report rate for any other crime. In the Duke case, I was prepared to side with the accuser, whose profession puts her at a very high risk of sexual assault, as opposed to a bunch of drunken college athletes, whose drunken collegeness puts them at a very high risk of being douchebags, but it's hard to argue with the lack of evidence.I think one of the things leading to this belief that there are so many false reports of rape is that a lot of people don't actually realize what rape is. If you give a questionairre to a bunch of men asking if they've ever raped anyone, most will answer no. If you ask if they've ever forced sex on anyone, a lot more will answer yes... even though "forced sex" is pretty much the definition of rape.

great

Apr 24 2007, 02:06 AM

QUOTE(thereshegoes @ Apr 18 2007, 12:39 PM)

yeah, i have to say, besides the feminist blogs, i haven't seen anything affirmative.

i just have trouble believing a poor black woman, putting herself through school stripping, was treated with respect by a group of wealthy white males who hired her so that they could get off sexually from her watching her take off her clothes to make her ends meet, considering she fled the party without her nails. even IF they did not force coitus on her, and that's a big IF, they are not heroes. i know it's not against the law for rich white men to hire poor strippers of color, but it's gross. it appeals to too many oppressor/oppressed ickity-blech for me to not look upon these dudes with scorn.

I think that every person should be treated with respect, it doesn't matter if she's a black or white women, if she put herself through school stripping or not. Every person deserves some respect.I don't think that it's a shame what she did, if that's the only job she could find.

girltrouble

Apr 24 2007, 07:51 PM

and just to interject a bit of first hand knowledge, or something close to it, having worked for an escort agency that occasionally did book strippers for parties as a booker, yes, you can order whatever you like, however: chances are, you will get what is available and you will not be notified if it is not what you want, and you can bet dollars to donuts, it's not going to be. even if it's something always in demand like a blonde/blue-eyed girl.

why?

most girls do the work temporarily

the customers will probably never call again

the girls are almost always flakes

you never have enough girls working, no matter how much you plan

the girls are choosy, may have regulars (rare) or children...they flake

customers usually pay no matter what they get, esp. parties.

the girls sometimes work for more than one agency and not working on the night you need them.

if they are good chances are they are working in a club, not for an agency.

if someone requested a b/b would we send a black girl? yup. if someone wanted an asian girl would we send a latina? sure, you work with what you have, and it is almost never what they want.

just so you know.

thereshegoes

Apr 25 2007, 01:27 PM

"I think one of the things leading to this belief that there are so many false reports of rape is that a lot of people don't actually realize what rape is. If you give a questionairre to a bunch of men asking if they've ever raped anyone, most will answer no. If you ask if they've ever forced sex on anyone, a lot more will answer yes... even though "forced sex" is pretty much the definition of rape"

unfortunately i know a lot of guys who think like that. i think rape is so often misconstrued as something creepy old men do in parking lots to strangers, and not something a horny guy does after too many beers.

and great, it wasn't my intention to say she deserved more respect because of her socioeconomic status and/or race, i was just trying to point out the huge power differentials in that room. i come from that part of the world (i know not all the players do) and i have heard too much from the mouths of sons of the south about sex and race and what you can do to a black/"mexican"/"chinese"/jewish/poor/trashy/etc. girl that you can't do to a debutante. the fact that they requested an asian girl only reinforces my view of these fine gents. i bet they wanted the asian girl and the white girl to "do it" with each other. . .

katiebelle2882

Apr 27 2007, 12:27 PM

you know what i am having a hard time with and i know as a feminist i shouldnt? i truly feel, and i am trying to get away from this feeling, that the fact that she had 4 other mens semen in her (none of which were the lax players) really plays a part in discrediting her story (among other things really, i dont believe she was raped personally). i mean, i know that even a prositute can get raped, so why i feel like this is beyond me. and while i know there are good reasons to not believe this woman, this should not be one of them. i am annoyed at myself for this.

thepointybird

May 2 2007, 02:13 PM

While we're on this topic, may I please introduce everyone to the wonderful world of Stephi (warning, this is a piece of pretty horrific showboating from a young woman who has clearly never been, or indeed met a victim of rape...)

It distresses the arse of me when a woman feels the need to make these kind of sweeping generalisations. I am however, rather heartened by the fact that many of the people disagreeing with her seem to be men. Feel free to leave her a galling comment. I was going to, but decided she was such a rampant ignoramus that she probably wasn't even worth arguing with.

mornington

May 2 2007, 02:35 PM

*head/desk*

i like the comments... she also states that feminism is leading us towards a fascist state. She'd rather take the word of the Home Office (hmmm....) over Rape Crisis.

culturehandy

May 2 2007, 07:18 PM

What a moron. Oh dear. Oh gosh. I must go now.

skinwithoutscars

May 4 2007, 12:24 PM

(directed at blog, not you guys)

why the fuck are people still arguing over this?

is it really so hard to open your eyes and see that our culture is violent towards women, in literal, institutional, historical and a whole slew of other ways? are there people who don't know this?

how badly do you want to live in denial to not see it?

believe me, i'm not one of those i blame the patriarchy folks, but i also think it's plain unrealistic to claim we live in a feminist utopia of equality and rainbows. the fact remains women are paid less, raped more, more impoverished . . . the list goes on and on. WHY ARE WE STILL DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT LOTS OF WOMEN GET RAPED?

LOTS OF WOMEN GET RAPED. VERY, VERY FEW WOMEN LIE ABOUT IT.

anyone who has ever talked to a rape victim KNOWS this. AAAAAHHHHHHHH!

*slams forehead into desk*

knorl05

May 4 2007, 12:46 PM

frustrating for sure.. getting the blind to see.

culturehandy

May 4 2007, 12:57 PM

I am curious what would happen if Ms. Thang Blogger got raped, would she still feel the same way?

*note, I'm so not wishing this upon her, I'm just saying*

lilacwine13

May 4 2007, 05:46 PM

I'm wondering if any of her friends got raped, if she'd believe them. I think if she got raped, she'd think that her experience was the exception, not the rule.

I don't mean to sound like an idiot, but what's the "Home Office?"

mornington

May 5 2007, 03:41 AM

lilac, it's the uk equivalent of the department that deals with internal affairs - the police, judiciary, immigration, etc etc etc. The politicians are in charge, but it's manned by civil servants, so the official policies change fairly regularly. The politicians in charge - John Reid especially - aren't particularly popular.

thingsarenice

May 5 2007, 05:42 AM

THINGSARENICE SMASH! SMASH STEPHI!

I could only read a few comments because reading her genius conclusion that because 95% of accused rapists aren't convicted it means that they were all falsely accused. Rape is a difficult thing to prosecute. There are often backwards-thinking juries and judges, lack of evidence, and victims who don't want to go through the emotional pain of a trial who drop charges. This does not equate to millions of innocent men having their lives ruined by a bunch of brazen hussies who just want to get back at them for whatever reason.

kittenb

May 6 2007, 07:13 AM

I just don't understand what people get out of backing up a system that says that women are liars. Am I not thinking hard enopugh? Am I just not corrupt enough to get it? Why does it seem that someone has to know or be a rape victim for it to become a concern to them? I am tired of my life being someone else's learning experience. How do people not know the truth? The system is fucked up and the prosecutors like to put up cases that they can win. Meaning, give them young innocent, preferably virginal, white victims and the prosecutors will go all the way. Be anything other than that demographic and, while they might take your case, it will be a lot harder of a fight.Seriously, if I take one more call that talks about the police not beliving a victim and therefor refusing to even make a report until they are reminded that that it the poilice's job! and I may have to do my own HULK SMASH!

And considering that we have to use the police department to get to the court system, let's take a look at the handling of some of the recent Chicago-area police attacks on women. Quit telling me it is an isolated incident and start discussing the ease with which these men perpetrated violence against women.

lilacwine13

May 6 2007, 05:24 PM

Okay, thanks, mornington.

faerietails2

May 8 2007, 01:35 PM

"I just don't understand what people get out of backing up a system that says that women are liars."

Right now I want to vomit. My mom has been harassed at work for over a year now, and bullied/defamed/sexually harassed for almost a year. Today it culminated with the administration covering up for everyone else (because of course everyone says "I didn't do it"), so they forced her to sign forms that say she has psychological problems and must submit to counseling. When she said no and that she had to call a lawyer, they told her she'd be fired if she didn't sign the forms on the spot.

My blood is beyond boiling right now.

erinjane

May 8 2007, 02:16 PM

Christ, that makes me so mad, faerietails. I feel enraged and I don't even know your mom. Stuff like that just makes me sick.

kittenb

May 8 2007, 03:53 PM

That really does suck. There has to be some law to protect her!

mornington

May 8 2007, 04:01 PM

what. the. fuck? There must be some laws there, faerie. That's wrong, and horrible.

nickclick

May 9 2007, 07:41 AM

ugh, i'm no lawyer, but that sounds highly illegal. she should talk to one.

the myth that women are so emotional that they say crazy things sometimes has been perpetuated for so long.

girltrouble

May 9 2007, 09:55 AM

ditto what everyone else said, but i also want to also say i admire your mom's courage to stand up. seems like she's the only one with a spine there.

the local radio show is doing a show on sexual harrassment in the military... grrr! this makes me so mad, the woman talking-- you can hear her tearing up in her voice...i get so furious that a woman who gives her life for this country would be treated so badly.

pollystyrene

May 13 2007, 07:16 AM

I was listening to NPR a few weeks ago and they had a journalist on who'd just come back from Iraq after spending time with the troops.....forgive me if I posted about this already...and the journalist said there were a couple of women who were in the infirmary after becoming dehydrated and getting UTI's because they weren't drinking water after 2:00pm in 115 degree F heat. They didn't want to have to get up after dark to walk across the camp to go to the latrines because they were afraid of getting raped by their fellow soldiers. How sick is that?

kittenb

May 13 2007, 08:42 AM

Although the military denies it, there are reports saying that female soldiers have died b/c of that.

Nothing like starting your day off with a fresh dose of "Are you fucking kidding me?!"

One of the thigs that really bother me is that it is two white guys talking about sexually using/abusing a woman of color. God I hope these guys loose their jobs. Freedom of speech just does not cover this bullshit.

ginger_kitty

May 13 2007, 02:21 PM

I hate guys that talk like that, it really isn't funny. But they get a few cheap laughs, and think it's acceptable. I doubt they will thier jobs, though.

I read an article close to a year ago, about maybe four or more ladies in the military dieing b/c of that. The government completely denied any knowledge of such a problem. And one officer said something to the affect of the deaths being the women's fault for refusing to drink water. It really pissed me off.

go_kayte

May 15 2007, 08:48 AM

ARRRGH!

I didn't get approved for an apartment because my boyfriend doesn't have a job there (in the city we're moving to). *I* have a job there and *I* can cover the entire rent myself. But they said in their experience "that doesn't ever work out". I pushed them to be more specific, I said, if he had the job here and I didn't have a job in that city would they approve us for an apartment? He wouldn't give an answer but he got pretty nervous about it. So fucking sexist. He said he would approve me for the apartment if I was by myself, but not if my boyfriend would be living with me. Fuck them.

candycane_girl

May 15 2007, 11:36 AM

wtf? kayte, may I ask what city this happened in?

go_kayte

May 16 2007, 10:23 AM

ccg, this is fort wayne. this place was supposed to be the hip downtown high rise, I wouldn't have expected sexist hillbilly landlords but whatever. We have to go back there again before we move to find an apartment (huge $$ for gas), and we lost the $25 application fee so I'm kinda pissed about that. Stupid sexists costing me money. If I want to support my boyfriend financially that's my fucking perogative.

hoosierman78

May 17 2007, 06:58 AM

QUOTE(go_kayte @ May 16 2007, 04:40 PM)

ccg, this is fort wayne. this place was supposed to be the hip downtown high rise, I wouldn't have expected sexist hillbilly landlords but whatever. We have to go back there again before we move to find an apartment (huge $$ for gas), and we lost the $25 application fee so I'm kinda pissed about that. Stupid sexists costing me money. If I want to support my boyfriend financially that's my fucking perogative.

I'm pretty sure that's not legal. So long as you a)have reasonbly acceptable references - i.e. you haven't skipped out on rent in multiple previous apartments and b)you can document that you do, in fact, have the income to sustain said rent, there really isn't much they can do to prevent you from living there. The only other reasons that I am aware of, is certain localities have codes regarding how many unrelated people can live in the same residence (generally seen as being aimed at college students, to prevent them from renting in 'family oriented' neighborhoods) and that does not apparently apply to you. Unfortunately, the only recourse is to go through an attorney, which will cost more $$. That is, unless Fort Wayne has a housing authority that you can file a complaint with.

go_kayte

May 17 2007, 09:03 AM

QUOTE(hoosierman78 @ May 17 2007, 09:15 AM)

I'm pretty sure that's not legal. So long as you a)have reasonbly acceptable references - i.e. you haven't skipped out on rent in multiple previous apartments and b)you can document that you do, in fact, have the income to sustain said rent, there really isn't much they can do to prevent you from living there. The only other reasons that I am aware of, is certain localities have codes regarding how many unrelated people can live in the same residence (generally seen as being aimed at college students, to prevent them from renting in 'family oriented' neighborhoods) and that does not apparently apply to you. Unfortunately, the only recourse is to go through an attorney, which will cost more $$. That is, unless Fort Wayne has a housing authority that you can file a complaint with.

Fuck 'em. One thing I've learned is that if your landlord is an asshole then you don't wanna live there. He told me I had to have a cosigner if I wanted to have my boyfriend living with me. I haven't had a cosigner since my first apartment and my parents are really not excited about it. I think I've found another place. I told them I'd be the primary rentpayer and they had no problem with that.

I was just told that due to my beliefs that I am an idealist, well fair enough, but nothing will get solved by apathy. Just because things are reality doesn't mean that they are correct. I just can't believe how many people normalize behavior because it simply is. People are so uncomfortable about getting out of their box and questioning stereotypes.

anna k

May 21 2007, 07:32 PM

That annoys me about female singers being sexualized a lot, getting more attention for being "hot," be it Gretchen Wilson as the "man's woman" or Amy Winehouse as the "dirty-sexy girl."

I don't care about Avril being more girly-looking, but she seems to have gone about it the wrong way by trying to be a "hot chick."

Beth Ditto has a good voice, but she's overweight and won't be sexualized. Jennifer Hudson can be celebrated as the "big girl," but may have felt pressure this year to lose weight to look more attractive and more "sexy."

I didn't think Janis Joplin was pudgy. I saw a nude photo of her and she was slim.

QUOTE

Even singers who are heralded for their talent are pretty, like Alicia Keys, Corinne Bailey Rae or Norah Jones. And while critically acclaimed Amy Winehouse may not win any beauty contests, her songs have a raw sexuality that give her that "it" factor.

lilacwine13

May 21 2007, 09:40 PM

That annoys me about the music industry too, especially since there are very few male singers who could be considered attractive.

And in what universe was Janis Joplin pudgy?

candycane_girl

May 21 2007, 10:47 PM

I hadn't seen this posted.

A 17 year old girl named Dua Khalil Aswad was stoned to death by about twenty men during an honour killing. What's worse though is that it was actually taped by numerous men on their camera phones. Supposedly she was killed for falling in love with a Sunni man.

This is what started to annoy me about Perez Hilton, Regardless of how it can sometimes be a thrill to see airbrushed celebrities caught in "normal" moments, it's pretty disgusting to criticize the fact that they have a zit on their face or not so perfect teeth. It only perpetuates the beauty ideal bullshit. It ends up being a contradiction. The whole thing is so passive aggressive.

pollystyrene

May 23 2007, 08:08 AM

Thanks for that article, candycane!

I'm cross-posting this in the This Just In thread, but I thought it would be of interest in here, too:

Prophecy_grrl posted this really great piece written by Joss Whedon (creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly, etc.) in the Buffy thread, and even if you're not a fan of his, it's an excellent piece that everyone should read.

candycane_girl

May 23 2007, 11:17 AM

Thanks polly. The Whedon commentary was actually what grabbed my attention about this article while I was perusing another site (Oh no they didn't! on livejournal). He sounds like a really smart man, and I love that he gladly calls himself a feminist.

urgh! why does our society think it has a say in when and how women have babies???? how many accidental, unwanted, or unable-to-be-cared-for babies are born every day???? let's praise smart mommies and modern medicine!

dj-bizmonkey

May 25 2007, 10:00 PM

Was this case in the news and I'm just totally out of the loop? This is so f-ed up.

oh, and nickclick, i am so with you on this. men can father children up until their 80, so why shouldn't women (with the aid of modern medicine) be allowed the same flexibility?

candycane_girl

May 25 2007, 11:05 PM

I'd have to disagree with the mom having kids at that age. I'm not saying that she shouldn't be allowed to do it but I think the reason it creates an uproar is because the older the mother is the more risk there is for birth defects, complications, etc.

I'm not really sure about sperm though, does the quality of it go down as men age?

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