If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Cascadian (1000+ posts) Tue Apr-19-11 02:25 PM
Original message Why the breakup of the U.S. is inevitable.

While it might not happen right away I am a convinced believer that the United States is on its way to becoming consigned to history. Our government has been bought and sold to the military/industrial complex, both parties have been compromised the Republicans in particular. Our education system is failing, our infrastructure continues to crumble, and now you have a growing permanent poor class that is replacing the middle class. We also have a bloated military who continues adventurisms from Korea to Afghanistan to now Libya. How can a nation survive particularly one that has become too big and too arrogant? I am of a belief the Founding Fathers wanted this country to be more like Switzerland. Instead we are the Roman Empire on steroids. We all know what happened to them.

I have been reading about and following the Second Vermont Republic movement closely as of late. I have also become more involved with the movement in Cascadia (Pacific Northwest) as well. In fact, we are considering re-starting a political party to be launched before the 2012 Election. I have also been in contact with the Second Vermont Republic's founder Dr. Thomas Naylor. He has even given me a copy of his book "Secession". A great book even if you don't agree with the thought of states breaking up from the Union. Dr. Naylor has made some very valid points in regards to how this country has gone so far off the path that the Founding Fathers intended the United States to be. Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin would be enraged to find what this nation has become if they were alive today. Dr. Naylor also talks about the First Vermont Republic and what they had achieved in its brief spell as an independent nation. It was a very noble and truly democratic system. What the whole of America should have been and should have stayed as instead of an "Empire".

There are many of you who have had the history lesson and mantra drilled in your heads over and over again that the Civil War settled that issue of secession. That is bunk! The Civil War never really solved anything with the exception of freeing slaves. Fundamentally it was really about the question of state's rights. We can discuss the History of the U.S. during the mid-19th Century all we want but that was then, this is now. The Civil War was 150 years ago. America was different and it was a different time with different situations. A recent poll asked if people believed in states and regions right to secede from the Union. 22 per cent said yes. This was the highest number since before the Civil War. Apart from Vermont and Cascadia, there are other movement calling for secession of their respective states and regions. Hawaii, Alaska, California, Texas, and even in the Midwest. There is a wave of disillusion among people and they are now looking for other political options other than the status quo we have now. Secession is one of those options.

I already know that some of you do not like what I am saying. Some of you think that the U.S. is "too big to fail" (where have I heard that phrase before? Hmmmm) and that it will get back on its feet one day. You don't have to like nor agree with what I am saying. That being said, the U.S. has been in steady decline since I would guess the 1960's with JFK's Assassination and Vietnam. Since when did we ever bounce back from that? The 80's with Reagan? Come on! Reagan was nothing more than an actor who had the ability to sell you a product which is what he did! He never really helped the country bounce back! That was a Dog and Pony Show! Was it with Bill Clinton? No! Wrong again! Bill Clinton was probably the best Centrist Republican President this country had since Eisenhower. One cannot forgive him for selling out the American workers with his Free Trade agreements and Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Clinton was far from a classic liberal Democrat. No the United States continues its decline into collapse and it doesn't matter who is President. There was a time, a brief recent time, when I wanted to believe that this country could be saved. I don't have those illusions anymore. Even if the states and regions breakaway, I see nothing will be that different. Only for the best. Each new country could have its own policies from social to trade. Each new country could decide on being in an alliance or just stay neutral (like in the case of Cascadia). Each new nation can trade with each other and people can come and go as they please. Even with a new flag flying, kids would go to school, play baseball in the park, people will go to work, and live their life. Of course that is the goal! These days, some kids don't go to school, they cannot play baseball in the park, and some people cannot go to work! What has been done about this? Nothing in my opinion!

The idea of secession for some brings out the thoughts of violent, bloody conflict to some people. I am not advocating that in any way, shape, or form. I envision a secession that is more on par with the 1993 "Velvet Divorce" between the Czech and Slovak Republic. I would never advocate for a Yugoslavia-style breakup where you had bloodshed and a civil war. Any result of violence would be nothing we would start. In the case of Cascadia, any secession process would include the development and establishment of our own institutions and system followed by the consent of the people via referendums. Just like any endeavors, there are plenty of risks and scenarios to think about.

The truth of the matter is that secession for any state/region is probably a generation away at best. I do not see how we can continue on the path we are taking which is a road to ruin. Anybody who thinks the U.S. is infallible or too big to fail is kidding themselves. The United States might have been a great nation long ago though it did have its faults, but I don't see it as such anymore. There is going to come a time when people are going to have to choose. If secession does happen my hope is for a peaceful transition. I would also not mind the idea of a Commonwealth of American States, a loose association of our respective lands, and perhaps trade agreements that will be fair and benefit all our peoples. The only change apart from the flags and allegiances would be a better more prosperous and peaceful future for all.

Um, show me anything in the founding documents as well as the Federalist Papers and anything the founders said at any time that would lead you to believe that in any way, shape, or form that the founders wanted us to even remotely resemble Switzerland.

probably one of the genius that frequent Alternatehistory.net and troll post there...

There are many of you who have had the history lesson and mantra drilled in your heads over and over again that the Civil War settled that issue of secession. That is bunk! The Civil War never really solved anything with the exception of freeing slaves. Fundamentally it was really about the question of state's rights. We can discuss the History of the U.S. during the mid-19th Century all we want but that was then, this is now. The Civil War was 150 years ago. America was different and it was a different time with different situations. A recent poll asked if people believed in states and regions right to secede from the Union. 22 per cent said yes. This was the highest number since before the Civil War. Apart from Vermont and Cascadia, there are other movement calling for secession of their respective states and regions. Hawaii, Alaska, California, Texas, and even in the Midwest. There is a wave of disillusion among people and they are now looking for other political options other than the status quo we have now. Secession is one of those options.

NOW they get all up on the State's right's issues, right...and the issue of Succession was answered, it wont happen again, unless the federal government completely collapsed

I have been reading about and following the Second Vermont Republic movement closely as of late. I have also become more involved with the movement in Cascadia (Pacific Northwest) as well. In fact, we are considering re-starting a political party to be launched before the 2012 Election. I have also been in contact with the Second Vermont Republic's founder Dr. Thomas Naylor. He has even given me a copy of his book "Secession". A great book even if you don't agree with the thought of states breaking up from the Union. Dr. Naylor has made some very valid points in regards to how this country has gone so far off the path that the Founding Fathers intended the United States to be. Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin would be enraged to find what this nation has become if they were alive today. Dr. Naylor also talks about the First Vermont Republic and what they had achieved in its brief spell as an independent nation. It was a very noble and truly democratic system. What the whole of America should have been and should have stayed as instead of an "Empire".

I've read about some of these groups and they are nothing more than a bunch of kooks

it's all stomping their feet and wanting to walk away instead of fixing the problems