Silicon Avatar wrote on Apr 19, 2013, 09:52:PC Manufacturers without tablets or mobile devices angry they didn't release a tablet or mobile device - blame it on Windows 8.

That's my version of the headline.

Seriously, if your big sales push relies on somebody else to hype up the entire industry you'll just have to take the lumps that are handed to you.

I agree. So many dumb and clueless people keep 'blaming' it on MS. Again, it has nothing to do with MS! Sure, they were late to the game with tablet and phones with good usability, but that's nothing to blame. Apple just designed the next step in personal computing before anyone else. That's all it is. So please, enough with the blame on MS for lackluster pc sales. Gamers will still buy pcs for as long as game companies still support them, and they still support them on Windows 8.

It's incredible how much the lack of start-menu has been mourned by some, when it was one of the most useless parts of the OS, at least in the way it was designed.

I don't necessarily disagree with that but the trouble with casual users and change is that A) it needs to provide a benefit and B) they need to be trained. Metro doesn't do a good job at either. There's also an odd, jarring juxtaposition transition between the Metro and the desktop that users seem to dislike, the interoperability between them wasn't given enough attention.

Windows8 adoption rate is still tracking close to what Windows7 achieved in the early days. There has been a decline once the promotional ($30-40) period was over, but that was expected.

I thought that was total licenses and that OEM numbers were way down which tracks with the OEM market in general experiencing slowdown for many factors, of which its hard to argue Windows 8 isn't one.

BitWraith wrote on Apr 19, 2013, 10:54:These [Windows 8] stories are so full of it. When Vista was released, all the nerds fell all over themselves on the internet bitching about how terrible it was. So, Microsoft reboxes it and sells it as Windows 7, and all of a sudden everyone loves it.

Vista distaste had nothing to do with the UI. It was the under the hood changes that made it a bloated and incompatible mess, much like Windows ME, especially in the enterprise... it was non-deployable.

7 is FIXED Vista, which is why it was accepted. Again, nothing to do with the UI. Yes there were some UI tweaks, but getting rid of the runtime bloat, and the much improved compatibility with legacy applications is what made 7 a success over Vista.

8 has nice under the hood changes, but most folks DON'T LIKE the new UI. You can justify what the start screen is supposed to be all you want, that doesn't change the fact that people DON'T LIKE IT. PERIOD. The ones that do are in the minority. The market has spoken with their wallets.

Jivaro wrote on Apr 19, 2013, 13:46:That is great stuff there for an enthusiast, but what MS has done has driven off the casual/average user. Those folks won't go looking for a regedit fix, won't do a regedit fix, and in most cases don't feel like they should have to do a regedit fix. Then they will ask you just what the hell regedit is.

Casual users will find start screen better suited to launch desktop applications than the old start menu. The start screen button pops up at exactly the same location where start menu used to be. There's very little learning curve there, if any.

The metro-apps though will throw a curve ball, mostly in terms of learning the search/print/settings options in the charms menu, but that's a different issue. The start-screen itself is just a better start menu.

Most casual users would have a bunch of desktop icons any way (from installing applications), and will not use start menu or start screen in the first place.

It's incredible how much the lack of start-menu has been mourned by some, when it was one of the most useless parts of the OS, at least in the way it was designed.

Idiotic article once again on Windows8. "One" unknown source from a PC OEM company unofficially commented that "millions" are moving to Apple because of Windows8, and it's taken as truth.

The OS number tell a different story. Win8 users are picking up, and x64/x86 combined have overtaken Vista. There has been no change in Apple or Linux use (if anything there's a slight dip but that can be within statistical margin of error)

Windows8 adoption rate is still tracking close to what Windows7 achieved in the early days. There has been a decline once the promotional ($30-40) period was over, but that was expected.

Lenovo is doing absolutely great on the PC front. Their Win8 machines are selling well, and their sales in US are actually up in the last quarter.

Kawlisse wrote on Apr 19, 2013, 14:53:Chill people ! I only said how easy it is, to make my point, my first PC I bought over 24 years ago, I knew nothing about pc, how do you think I learned DoS, by playing with it, did I screw up a few times, yes, but I learned by myself, (no google to help me at the time )

a 3 step thing even a casual should know how to do it! I do understand your point, and I do agree, Microsoft should of known better, Still either people got lazy, or scared to screw things up.

Err, you need to spend more time with casual users, I wouldn't want any of them near regedit and many need to look at the mouse when told to right click. There's a reason curated apps are becoming such a big thing. Most people don't really want to learn about their computer, they just want to use it. I wish it was different but that's reality.

Chill people ! I only said how easy it is, to make my point, my first PC I bought over 24 years ago, I knew nothing about pc, how do you think I learned DoS, by playing with it, did I screw up a few times, yes, but I learned by myself, (no google to help me at the time )

a 3 step thing even a casual should know how to do it! I do understand your point, and I do agree, Microsoft should of known better, Still either people got lazy, or scared to screw things up.

Kawlisse wrote on Apr 19, 2013, 13:07:It is so easy do disable MetroDont even know why so many people are bitching about windows 8 its the same freaking os than windows 7 (when you reg edit Metro)

If you read my later post, I said exactly the same thing and then listed why people bitch about Windows 8. Also asking casual users to open up regedit is a recipe for disaster, enthusiasts like us don't need to be told how either.

I have no idea whether that "millions of Apple customers" article is actually true, but if it is, Steve Ballmer might genuinely be the first CEO to actively boost his largest competitor's customer base. It's going beyond the realm of the absurd that this guy is still employed. I don't think he just has pictures of members of the Board satisfying a camel anymore, he probably has an actual death contract out on them.

It's frustrating. He keeps making strategic missteps and blunders but as long as Office and Windows corporate licensing keeps printing money then the board doesn't have a financial incentive to get rid of him.

Dont even know why so many people are bitching about windows 8 its the same freaking os than windows 7 (when you reg edit Metro)

That is great stuff there for an enthusiast, but what MS has done has driven off the casual/average user. Those folks won't go looking for a regedit fix, won't do a regedit fix, and in most cases don't feel like they should have to do a regedit fix. Then they will ask you just what the hell regedit is.

The enthusiasts already had their panties bunched. This isn't about them. This is about MS failing at trying to force the mainstream to do things in a different way and the mainstream taking their money and running off to Apple. It says something, it says a lot actually, when the mainstream is willing to pay the Apple premium just to avoid using a Windows OS. Apple is no longer "think different" to the mainstream, it is "why isn't everything this simple".

MS is failing at keeping it simple. Maybe in practice Windows 8 is simple, that doesn't matter if the perception is that it is not. Start telling people they can "regedit" stuff...and the perception is not simple.

People here, on this forum, we know that crap. People keep posting about how you can get rid of Metro as if the readers here don't already know that shit and haven't already known that since before the OS was released. You can regedit this, you can download that...blah blah blah.

My damn grandmother isn't going to do that. She is going to wonder why her computer isn't as easy to use as her smartphone...and then she is going to go buy a computer made by the same people who made her smartphone. Kinda like the article attached to this thread says is happening.

These [Windows 8] stories are so full of it. When Vista was released, all the nerds fell all over themselves on the internet bitching about how terrible it was. So, Microsoft reboxes it and sells it as Windows 7, and all of a sudden everyone loves it.

I bought Vista - thought it was a little clunky at first, but it was OK. I bought Windows 7 and thought "this is the exact same thing. It's just as clunky."

Quite the revisionist history. If you can't tell the difference between vista and 7, you might want to get your eyes checked.

saluk wrote on Apr 19, 2013, 12:51:Windows 8 is not that bad. It's also not that great. A "less scary" windows 8 may have been a better move - then again, it might not have mattered.

It wouldn't have. Windows 8 offers few enhancements over Windows 7. Sure, some are pretty cool, like the integrated task manager, but that's not enough for most people to buy a new OS over. (though the cheap upgrade price might have made it more worth it for some.)

Metro and Windows 8's weird hybrid functionality is what's keeping people away. The really stupid thing is that Microsoft obviously thought that Metro was going to sweep the tablet market by storm and that's where they want/hope the majority of their new business is going to be. But why fucking integrate the two then? Just develop a Tablet Windows and a Desktop Windows. They have like 30,000 engineers, it's not as if they don't have the manpower to do it.

But now for the sake of the tablet market, in which Microsoft is literally making ZERO headway (their total market share is below 3%), they've shat all over their desktop customers, and, more importantly, their Enterprise customers. Brilliant decisions there.

I have no idea whether that "millions of Apple customers" article is actually true, but if it is, Steve Ballmer might genuinely be the first CEO to actively boost his largest competitor's customer base. It's going beyond the realm of the absurd that this guy is still employed. I don't think he just has pictures of members of the Board satisfying a camel anymore, he probably has an actual death contract out on them.

Man I knew it was bad with casual users but that bad? Wow. Ironically most of the enthusiasts seem to have stayed with Windows 7 or figured out how to disable Dumbtro and made peace with Windows 8. I guess casual users just didn't find it very desirable, certainly not enough to stop seeking the Apple brand.

Well, windows vista wasn't horrible everywhere. Just on most systems. If you had a top of the line system, or bought one of those vista certified machines that was ACTUALLY reasonably certified rather than pushed through the windows 7 and windows vista difference would be somewhat minor.

Windows 8 is not that bad. It's also not that great. A "less scary" windows 8 may have been a better move - then again, it might not have mattered. The slacking of the pc market has more to do with a long recession coupled with the leveling of moores law and lack of applications (and games) driving upgrades. It's undeniable that windows has historically driven pc purachases, but other things have been drivers as well. There was still a noticeable difference in general computing speed.

The internet runs about the same on anything now, and games have not been taking advantage of computing technology. If what everyone has is good enough, people are wary of making purchases they don't need to make, more people already have access to computers via phone or existing hardware than ever before, and there are no applications requiring better hardware - what could a perfect windows 8 have done to turn that tide?

It would have had to actually innovate, which is something microsoft really doesn't know how to do. It's certainly not that bad - but "not that bad" is not a reason for people to want to purchase something

These [Windows 8] stories are so full of it. When Vista was released, all the nerds fell all over themselves on the internet bitching about how terrible it was. So, Microsoft reboxes it and sells it as Windows 7, and all of a sudden everyone loves it.

I bought Vista - thought it was a little clunky at first, but it was OK. I bought Windows 7 and thought "this is the exact same thing. It's just as clunky."

Quite the revisionist history. If you can't tell the difference between vista and 7, you might want to get your eyes checked.

But he got a 10% boost across all framerates! Despite the fact that every benchmark has shown there's little difference between 7 and 8, HIS version of Windows 8 is the tits!

I thought the PC article had hope, it started out "People haven't necessarily stopped using themóaging PCs are still humming along in bedrooms, living rooms, and offices everywhere. It's just that those machines aren't getting replaced."

That is more the truth of it all. But Wall Street is all hype and they have to hype the good and denounce the bad in the name of growth.

As for the Win8/Apple. I know of no one that switch brands based on Win 8. I know people that removed 8 and put 7 back on, but not a total PC change like that.

These [Windows 8] stories are so full of it. When Vista was released, all the nerds fell all over themselves on the internet bitching about how terrible it was. So, Microsoft reboxes it and sells it as Windows 7, and all of a sudden everyone loves it.

I bought Vista - thought it was a little clunky at first, but it was OK. I bought Windows 7 and thought "this is the exact same thing. It's just as clunky."

Quite the revisionist history. If you can't tell the difference between vista and 7, you might want to get your eyes checked.

BitWraith wrote on Apr 19, 2013, 10:54:I got a 10% boost in framerates. Metro is the exact same thing as the effing start menu, just displayed more graphically. Also, please don't bring up the search bar - all you have to do in 8 is start typing and the search comes up automatically (I guess that was too complicated for IT nerds to figure out)

Eh I've measured a one second difference between boot times with 7 vs 8 on an SSD with my system so *shrug*. Most people these days use S3 sleep or hibernate anyway. Windows 7 was nowhere near as clunky as Vista, they disabled a lot of unneeded services and other bloat, it's why the hardware requirements between them are so different. A 10% across the board frame rate boost is very dubious (and likely more related to driver improvements than OS) and no one has a problem with typing searches, its things like the category selection that introduced workflow annoyances for enthusiasts. Casual users on the other hand have to be trained for this stuff and you don't change things for no reason other than wanting an ecosystem for your app offering.

Windows 8 is fine as a very minor incremental upgrade on Windows 7 when it was $15-40 but they've been raising the prices since. They needed to bring a lot more to the table these days. Their main selling point was Metro which people didn't care for much in beta but they ignored feedback and pressed on. The reception to the interface in general has been very poor from the public, press and enthusiasts. It's fixable with some tweaks but Microsoft has shown a bizarre stubbornness in this area so who knows what will happen.

Microsoft's shared ecosystem vision is largely a failure so far. They are playing against their traditional strengths by trying to marry touch screen apps with traditional desktop/laptop interfaces and the market for these things is mostly a consumptive audience well served by tablets anyway. I get what they were shooting for here but they didn't pull it off yet.

These [Windows 8] stories are so full of it. When Vista was released, all the nerds fell all over themselves on the internet bitching about how terrible it was. So, Microsoft reboxes it and sells it as Windows 7, and all of a sudden everyone loves it.

I bought Vista - thought it was a little clunky at first, but it was OK. I bought Windows 7 and thought "this is the exact same thing. It's just as clunky."

Now I've moved on to Windows 8 and it's fine. It's actually quite speedy of an OS (a lot more-so than 7, ESPECIALLY BOOT TIME). And, I got a 10% boost in framerates. Metro is the exact same thing as the effing start menu, just displayed more graphically. Also, please don't bring up the search bar - all you have to do in 8 is start typing and the search comes up automatically (I guess that was too complicated for IT nerds to figure out)

It really irks me that clueless authors get so much press about this so called PC thing. Tablets are great for some things, but they can't replace an office computer nor a gaming computer. Nor a home computer if you do any sort of typing on it. Until they get the virtual keyboards working and have tablets that can support a decent AI, PC's will continue to be the backbone of computing.

One of the reasons for this downturn in the PC market, there is not a lot of reason for businesses to upgrade existing computers at the moment. That will change.

Anyone buying a tablet for a college kid needs their head examined unless they are buying a laptop along with it.