TheBaverianBasterd wrote:I don't see how this really matters. It's not as if anyone will mistake it for some other Mercedes team on the grid as there is only one.

So as fans of the Mercedes F1 works team, it's unreasonable of us to ask that the team's name be listed correctly at the top of its own thread?

My thought is simply that given where this team is currently, the accuracy of the name is the least of the worries. When Lewis told Autosport he would consider a return to McLaren in the future, coincidentally right after the 2014 bodywork changes were dropped, I think he had an epiphany of sorts. While he might be lacking tact at times, he wasn't going to out and out say that he didn't think this team could compete. But now that the ink is dry on his contract, and some changes were made that he was banking on, it seems as long as aero is the only area open for development, Mercedes is going to have troubles.

According to who Marcush? I recall you posting that Mercedes acted disgracefully and aimed both barrels due to them not retaining your favoured driver.As it transpires, it was Schumacher who let his extension lapse, and Mercedes took that as a sign he was not interested anymore.

marcush. wrote:I don´t think the MGP bashing is unfair or unjustified at all.

If you think bashing is acceptable on a technical forum, then it's no wonder the Mercedes thread has been a toilet for these sort of antics.

I would face up to the fact that your favoured driver is no more. And now that it is the 2013 thread for this team, there is no reason to talk about MSC or which stories you like or dislike to discredit the team more than you have already have.

i don't get why they've changed the aero regulations. some lobbying war in the background. montezemolo wanting to cut aero maybe merc as well. but maybe red bull and mclaren could win in this matter? apart ferrari and redbull: how many teams are there in history rising from the "ashes" according to beeing absolute championship contenders? i mean it took redbull how many years to be top? four? and ferrari three years?

though i doubt merc will improve significantly next year i was very adamt they could habe made a difference in 2014 but now wirh regulations backed to those of 2012. i feel like every year will be harder and harder for merc cause the other good teams obivously won't decline in terms of aero performance. does anone know the exact techincal details of the BGP001? regarding designing and building the whole car round the double diff. to gain the most rear downforce.

would be very interresting to know what they have changed so far compared W03 and BGP001.

the 2013 tyres will degregate quicker than 2012er which makes it even more harder for merc. i've read something the flanks of the tyres will be much stiffer? what can be gained or has to be changed in terms of car design? or simply stiffer dampers?

recently brawn was cited, that the design work of the W04 began already 12 months ago. don't you think this is a little exaggerated?

Says who? You? Because XIX issued one press release a few hours before Daimler did? This is reaching.

I don´t think the MGP bashing is unfair or unjustified at all.

The question isn't if it's unfair or unjustified, but if it's appropriate. The answer is no, it's not. This is a technical forum, not a sounding board for you to project your everyday anger onto an underperforming F1 team.

Wait... and prepare yourself for powerbashing.

Why? Are you inferring that the mods won't do their job? This sounds like the kind of threat a troll would make. If a forum thread brings out the worst in you, perhaps you should avoid it all together for awhile?

winth304 wrote:the 2013 tyres will degregate quicker than 2012er which makes it even more harder for merc.

Not necessarily. The problem was the narrow window of operation. The accelerated rate of degradation was just a symptom of that. Supposedly, the window of operation will be widened in 2013, which will be very, very good for Mercedes.

I don't get it... What are you guys saying? That this team, above all the others, should be immune or spared from any sort of criticism? Lavish praises & elaborate excuses/rationalizations are fine, but critical opinions over the team's under-achieving ways are taboo and suddenly got you folks waving the non-technical card and screaming for the mods?

The other teams' threads have their own fair share of criticisms, both from non-fans and supporters alike. That Merc gets more brickbats than the others is a direct consequence of them being the most under-performing team of the lot, getting the least bang-for-buck or return (points) on investment.

The car threads harbor most of the technical/hardware-related discussions. The team threads, on the other hand, should allow for a healthy discussion & scrutiny (which includes opinions & speculations) of the teams' (including drivers') performance/results, managerial/operational philosophies, commercial situation and other team-related developments. The mods do a good enough job of dissuading and cleaning up unwanted/inappropriate content from trolls, fanboys & haters/bashers. No need to be too sensitive and cry "non-technical!" everytime a less-than-positive observation or opinion is mentioned about the team.

ArchAngel wrote:I don't get it... What are you guys saying? That this team, above all the others, should be immune or spared from any sort of criticism? Lavish praises & elaborate excuses/rationalizations are fine, but critical opinions over the team's under-achieving ways are taboo and suddenly got you folks waving the non-technical card and screaming for the mods?

There is a difference beween criticism and venting. The technical card is for the latter. Yes this is a team thread, but it's also a technical forum. The happy medium is that we at least remain objective. There are plenty of other forums for F1 related emotional outbursts. A lot of us are here to specifically get away from those places.

The other teams' threads have their own fair share of criticisms, both from non-fans and supporters alike. That Merc gets more brickbats than the others is a direct consequence of them being the most under-performing team of the lot, getting the least bang-for-buck or return (points) on investment.

It went further than that. The new Mercedes works team is only three years old, so its fan-base is largely comprised of the built in fan-base that came with the three pointed star (ie Foxhound, myself, others), who watched DTM, GT, and raced Mercedes cars themselves. Unlike the other threads you mentioned, the haters in this thread outnumbered the fans by a large enough margin that a bully culture emerged. This was fortunately finally stomped out recently, but I hope it explains why the Merc fans are still a bit wary and quick to react, not to mention anal-retentive.

The car threads harbor most of the technical/hardware-related discussions. The team threads, on the other hand, should allow for a healthy discussion & scrutiny (which includes opinions & speculations) of the teams' (including drivers') performance/results, managerial/operational philosophies, commercial situation and other team-related developments.

I totally agree. Underline the term healthy. Ranting doesn't fall under that umbrella.

Ironically, I actually look forward to being able to write some criticism. As fans, we've been so inundated defending the team from trolls, we haven't really had a forum to voice our own concerns until now.

I am with ArchAngel on this one, though I understand what you mean Cocles.

And yes, if we wanted emotional outbursts we would be in another forum but I really haven't seen that many worrying signs that the level is declining here. Compare it to a well known forum, I won't write the name, we are in a far better place on that regard. The tallest tree catches the most wind and such is the case with Mercedes. It should be that way, it is normal that many people have simply lost patience, seeing a team incapable of understanding the significance of a 60% model instead of a 50%, therefore stalling updates which leads to an uncompetitive car getting lapped in many races, or at least fighting with the FI's or the TR's. Then comes the whole "PR talk". Excuses after excuses through interviews and post-race comments simply trying to hide the obvious. This team is doing a really bad job. They fail to find solutions to the same problems for many races and they have 3 car designs that are sub-par for the name of Mercedes.

I wouldn't call bashing what marcush does for example. He seems way too educated and knowledgeable for that. There are passionate fans and passionate critics, both sides have that. I remember some months ago X and JET disagreeing all the time but their posts where valuable and gave the complete picture. Now if the one is labeled fanboy and the other troll and hater which would result in a ban, we would simply lose as a forum.

After all , I am a Mercedes fan and have always been, I supported McLaren because of the Mercedes (Illmor at least) engine, and when a works team appeared I chose in a second to switch allegiance. I didn't watch DTM or raced in a series, but is that really the question? Because some fans are older and supported the team in other forms of motorsport, are they more "right"?

Anyway, that is my opinion.

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose." - Ayrton Senna

The point is, if you look at the Mercedes threads of old, there would be unashamed bashing. "these guys are clueless""Rubbish""immoral""a waste"............. and on and on and on.

Yes it's dissapointing for Mercedes. But do you honestly think that had they been successful, the people who criticized them would have given credit to Mercedes? Or any credit at all?It would have been a rebadged Honda team, or another "lucky" development.

Having seen how people can accuse Mercedes and it's of all sorts of misdeeds without 1 jot of evidence, and seen that the mods allow this kind of behaviour...I have replicated this very behaviour on another thread and got short shrift.So I'll be waiting to see what happens on this thread with a very keen eye.

Yes, if they are indeed haters they wouldn't give credit to Mercedes for achieving success. Though you have to ask, if Schumacher won the championship say in 2010 with the W01, wouldn't it just be a re badged BAR/Brawn? What would be the Mercedes link or the Mercedes DNA?

I am against bashing although I understand why people might passionately hate a driver/team/football player etc. Although here, even in the old topics compared to other forums we are decent. Yes the situation goes out of hand sometimes but rarely.

Now, to be on topic. I remember a change of roles that occurred some months ago, when we couldn't figure out if Bob Bell was pushed out etc. Do we have any information on that?

What is Willis doing, what is Bell's role, is Costa the only one on the 2013 car as I've read or aren't these things set in stone?

I would like to read more info on that. Seems that the pieces are in place now, and I expect better results and sustainability of these results from the first GP.

"Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose." - Ayrton Senna

ArchAngel wrote:I don't get it... What are you guys saying? That this team, above all the others, should be immune or spared from any sort of criticism? Lavish praises & elaborate excuses/rationalizations are fine, but critical opinions over the team's under-achieving ways are taboo and suddenly got you folks waving the non-technical card and screaming for the mods?

Nothing wrong with that. Just that when you read the same old stuff day in day out from the same old members day in day out it´s like "yes we get it!" The only reason the Merc threads are so long is because 70% is just random bashing.

Bell is now working within engines, and it's integration into the car. I would guess he is heading research into Coanda development for the W04 and also to reduce the fuel usage of their system. They where carrying around 20Kgs more fuel than other cars just to utilise their exhausts correctly. So while they may work, as 5th place quali suggested, in race it is hampered by excessive fuel consumption and the pitfalls of this problem...excessive mass.

Bell's skillset is mainly in management I'm led to believe. So while he may not be offering solutions, he will certainly be sifting through the better solutions presented by the group.

Bell is now working within engines, and it's integration into the car. I would guess he is heading research into Coanda development for the W04 and also to reduce the fuel usage of their system. They where carrying around 20Kgs more fuel than other cars just to utilise their exhausts correctly. So while they may work, as 5th place quali suggested, in race it is hampered by excessive fuel consumption and the pitfalls of this problem...excessive mass.

Bell's skillset is mainly in management I'm led to believe. So while he may not be offering solutions, he will certainly be sifting through the better solutions presented by the group.

after a few races of the 2012 season the engine mappings were frozen and the teams had to choose from those 3-4 they used in the beginning. that was a disadvantage though lotus wasn´t really hampered by this with their coanda.

for the 2013 season: do they have the same mappings or all new one they want to have?