I appreciate your level headed reply and explanation of a business plan to support American workers. I think it's a commendable goal. Running a business is not charity work. Manufacturing jobs will continue to move overseas. Companies need to adapt and change their business models as you have to survive. That DOES NOT mean employing less workers - it means employing different types. How many workers does Orvis employ across America for instance?

Shoot - I've got a bad feeling we're close to the gasoline can with an open flame on this one.

CountryBoy - you're lobbing some heavy accusations for a guy who's made a single post. I'd love to know what manufacturer you work for or why you feel it's necessary to create a new account for this single post of yours.

nicely said Justin, way to keep a level head. from my experience with Justin's products i am as happy as could be with the reels i have. i will continue to use his products because they work great. yes there are American made reels that can be just as good but the reason that he has the sales he does is due to his service not his price. give anyone out there the service that Justin has and charge double his prices for any product and they will sale just as well. You cant buy great customer service from over seas or the US so i am not supporting another countries economy i am supporting an American companies service and the products that he carries being amazing is just a plus in my book.

i have placed an order for 6 dozen fly'es, a 6wt rod and a 6wt alpha reel. i have to say that justin has been very helpful. he has been very quick to answer my many question. he is making sure i get everything by the 23rd so i can take it out on the yakima that weekend.

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Are the rods orderable online somewhere? I want a six weight 9 footer and I want a reel with a clicker drag when they come out.

Allen’s equal is Orvis as they do the same thing. Companies like Abel, Bauer, Ross Reels, Tibor are clearly in a different league. It is up to each of us if we want to support a foreign or domestic league. I am tired of US companies losing to overseas companies on the mere fact that someone is exploiting their cheap labor and utilizing government subsidized materials because someone in that market is willing to work for in a day that would barely pay for a meal on a family dinner table in the U.S.

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And I'm tired of people assuming that the rest of us have money to be spending on high end, high priced gear. I'm a full time student with no job (laid off from my job last year. yay irony), I buy what I can afford.

OK you guys, knock it off! I have been laid off and can't afford to keep buying stuff, but after reading this thread I just ordered a 6wt combo with the Trout 5/7 reel and a floating line. And it's all WFF's fault!

We've worked a deal and I have paid him via PayPal. He has to have the rod made and said the leadtime will be about 10 days. I'm OK with that. I can't shake the feeling this deal is too good to be true, but at this price I am willing to take the gamble.

I think its safe now to let everyone know that my Anti Reverse reel is now done. I dont want to list photos yet, but if you are interested PM me. I'm going to send it to Chris for a full reel review in the next 10 days. Pricing will be close to $225 for pre-orders (send me PM for details) and $295 there after for WFF members. Pricing structure is still up in the air, but those are close numbers. The reel is interchangable from Right to Left. I'll list specs by the end of week.

...I took this job on to grow another company and to employee (one day) american workers. I am getting Fly Box Molds made. They will be ran at my families business and will keep our machines running. Also, fly reels are a no brainer to make. I am also having a US based series of fly reels made aswell and will be ran on our CNC machines in house... Best Regards, Justin

Is that 'freeplay' you're talking about in the Alpha reel Justin gave you in lieu of an additonal spool? If I am interpreting your use of 'freeplay' correctly, it's not unusual at all for certain reels to have 'freeplay' before there is any drag engagement. I have several Abel reels, and all exhibit that characteristic. No drag engagement for probably almost one revolution of the drag knob, then the drag ramps up pretty quickly. I have a Tibor Gulfstream; same thing respective to drag engagement. Ditto with my Redington Breakwater, Rise, and CD reels. Same with my Sage D series reels. Same with . . .

Depending on the drag system, most disc drag reels have some 'freeplay' before drag engagement. Ramp up on the drag is a big difference between the manufacturers and their reels. Some designers believe the drag should go from zero to max in less than complete turn of the knob; some designers believe in more fine tuning of a drag, and may have two revolutions to go from zero to max drag. For example, Abel reels ramp up quickly, Tibor less so. Both drags areextremely similar, but their designers approached drag ramp up and adjustment differently. My Battenkill large arbor reels have been adjusted so the ramp up starts after a little more turn of the drag knob instead of immediately as it came from the factory.

I'll bet your Alpha reels are probably just fine and the 'freeplay' is probably part of the drag system, and you may just not be used to any 'freeplay' in the drag engagement.

Just putting some things in perspective.

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A slight bit of freeplay before engagement is common on almost every single reel. The amount can vary and that is something to be cognizant of when comparing reels. The only reels I demand perfect start up and engagement is on big game, saltwater reels where that can mean the difference between a hook up or lost fish.

I didn't post properly. As a result, this quote never made it through. This comment is what I am referring to so maybe it will shed some light on my perspective.

"This really cemented my belief that fly fishing equipment is so expensive because most of us are such suckers. Anything more expensive than an allen reel is now a rip off in my book. That's coming from someone dumb enough to pay a LOT LOT more in the past. "

I have already explained that I understand the circumstances so there is no need to repeat the obvious conditions and demands of today's global market. I own Orvis products and the Allen gear looks appealing like I said. On top of that, Allen is doing nothing wrong and is obviously a top notch guy from his business history. Being an extremely small reel manufacturer in the US that pretty much does it for love, I refuse to let someone call something of high quality appropriately priced made in the U.S. a rip off. All I was explaining is why other reels are much more expensive to what appeared to be as someone that did not know. It is obvious I did not do this correctly therefore, my apologies.

CountryBoy - you're lobbing some heavy accusations for a guy who's made a single post. I'd love to know what manufacturer you work for or why you feel it's necessary to create a new account for this single post of yours.

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I've been a member for over two years. I just lurk because of geographic location and just enjoy reading what you guys have over here. Carry on.

I am in no way knocking Allen’s reel, but Allen’s prices are where they are because he is sourcing from south east Asia somewhere and is then selling direct bypassing the retail market ...... It not a rip off, but a decision if you want to support U.S. Industry.

Allen’s equal is Orvis as they do the same thing. Companies like Abel, Bauer, Ross Reels, Tibor are clearly in a different league. It is up to each of us if we want to support a foreign or domestic league. I am tired of US companies losing to overseas companies on the mere fact that someone is exploiting their cheap labor and utilizing government subsidized materials because someone in that market is willing to work for in a day that would barely pay for a meal on a family dinner table in the U.S.

...... I own Orvis products and the Allen gear looks appealing like I said. On top of that, Allen is doing nothing wrong and is obviously a top notch guy from his business history. Being an extremely small reel manufacturer in the US that pretty much does it for love, I refuse to let someone call something of high quality appropriately priced made in the U.S. a rip off. All I was explaining is why other reels are much more expensive to what appeared to be as someone that did not know. It is obvious I did not do this correctly therefore, my apologies.

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Countryboy, I must apologize if I am reading this incorrectly [ and if so please let me know]. I have put in bold the statements you have posted and I am confused. At first it seemed as if you were pushing US made products to help industries here and purely anti-foreign due to exploitation. You tied Allen&Co to Orvis as both foreign make [ which means you wouldn't buy either right?]. But then you state that you own Orvis products. And towards the end you state that you are a small reel manufacturer in the US. So, in regards to what you suggest we [ general consumers] should buy, are you saying we should buy from Orvis [ that you state is foreign made] instead of Allen&Co due to the success level and the price? Or should we be buying just US made to help our local industry? Or should we be seeking out the small reel maufacturer?

I am not accusing anyone of anything. My statements are factual then I gave my opinion on how I felt about the global market competition. Again, I was refuting the comment that anything higher than the price of an Allen Fly Fishing Product is a rip off. That is it. Like any opinion, I gave an explanation why so my point of view can be seen. Period. I didn't slam Allen, Orvis, or anyone else that purchases this product. Word mince me all you want. I think we all agree is hard not to purchase foreign products. I never said not to nor did I say that I don't. I didn't bring this up to increase domestic sales. Domestic sales are what they are because the consumers choose to consume domestically.

Regardless, it appears I was wrong for bringing it up. I apologize for taking away from this thread. Lets move on because this discussion will go no where.

Countryboy, I remain unconvinced that you were not breaking out the mortar and dropping shells downrange toward Allen and Orvis. I also remain confused as to what products you are a part of producing. Here is an idea for you to consider. I have a few of Justin's reels, three as a matter of fact, and I have a very close by friend that has a couple more in models that I don't have. Tell me what reels you produce, tell me where to get them, heck, even send me one for me to test out (I'll return it afterward if you wish or give it to Chris for the gear review program) and then I'll post back what I think about the reel. In the meantime you have to provide us more than cloaked information on your reels, company, price point, production location, materials supplier, how many employees you have, how many families you support through your business...you know, the type of things that Justin did after you started pig piling on his company and products. What do you think about that? Will you be back to lurking after firing off your shots, or are you prepared to stand up and put yourself out there for some outside review? The floor is all yours.