Shofar FTP Archive File: people/h/hoffman.michael/1994/usenet.9411

Article 18387 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death Threat Against Revisionist Posted
Message-ID: <1994Oct29.044942.32580@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 29 Oct 94 04:49:42 -0500
References:
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 26
In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
> In the alt.revisionism thread >>Goeths Arrest,>> Stephan Schulz, responding to
> revisionist Michael A. Hoffman II, stated:
>>>I wonder what would happen to Hoffman if Hermi would be allowed to kill the
> hopeless psychopaths.<<
>
> I wonder what would happen to Khazars (or philo-Khazars) like Schulz if, when
> losing a debate, they did something besides summoning the ghosts of Abe Reles,
> Menachem Begin and other august ice-pick pokers and piano-wire wielders? Or
Well Mr. Hoffman#2, perhaps you don't know who Hermann (Hermi) is.
Mr. Hoffman#2, meet Miltie Kleim, the self-avowed Nazi.
Miltie thinks the mentally unfit should be killed, particularly the
insane and feeble-minded.
I personally think Kleim has a death wish for himself and his fellow
racist dimwits.
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
Miami University him to sin.."
Oxford, Ohio 45056 -- Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------
Article 18390 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Death Threat Against Revisionist Posted
In-Reply-To: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu's message of 29 Oct 94 04:49:42 -0500
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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References: <1994Oct29.044942.32580@miavx1>
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 05:02:54 GMT
Lines: 18
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
>Mr. Hoffman#2, meet Miltie Kleim, the self-avowed Nazi.
>
>Miltie thinks the mentally unfit should be killed, particularly the
>insane and feeble-minded.
And then, of course, the two of them can deny it ever happened...
Unfortunately for them they're both more likely to be the road than
the steamroller.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18391 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman and "Khazars"
In-Reply-To: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu's message of 30 Oct 1994 22:30:48 GMT
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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References: <390o1i$dqr@access4.digex.net>
<5I9WTMU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
<3916qo$hlm@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 02:17:31 GMT
Lines: 18
Wait a minute, I thought these Khazars were from the Caucasus?
So we have some people here bashing jews in their quest for caucasian
"rights" (Kleim, Savage) and others bashing jews for being caucasians
(Hoffman-sub-2.)
Tough crowd.
``We has met the enemy and they is us!''
-Walt Kelly, Pogo
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18395 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Sat, 29 Oct 94 15:33:10 -0500
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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<1994Oct25.171818.25559@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 20:31:40 GMT
Lines: 21
From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>She tucked the ten dollar bill under her mattress and pulled up her panties as
>the semen streamed from her pussy.>>
Thank you for your erudite contribution to the conversation, Mr
Hoffman. As always you have provided clear and guiding focus on the
pressing issues of the day and offered much to think about.
Oh, and one other thing: WATCH OUT THE BATS ARE IN THE ROOM WITH YOU
THE ZIONIST BRAIN CONTROLLING BATS ARE GOING TO LAY THEIR EGGS IN YOUR
HAIR WHICH WILL MAKE YOU THEIR SLAVE WATCH OUT WATCH OUT WATCH OUT!!!
This has been a public service announcement.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18396 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Sat, 29 Oct 94 15:36:24 -0500
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <5s7VBb+.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <38caba$b4e@access4.digex.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 20:34:18 GMT
Lines: 20
From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Shein on!
ah, we are back to making fun of each other's names! I knew we'd find
your level.
>>huge dildos blah blah BLAH blah blah<<
Those were Lyndon "Lynn Marcus" Larouche's words, not mine.
I realize you can't keep the voices in your head straight.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18398 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Date: 29 Oct 1994 21:25:10 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <38uejm$hj9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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"Revisionist scholar" wrote:
# She tucked the ten dollar bill under her mattress and pulled up her
# panties as the semen streamed from her pussy.
See, folks, this is what they mean when they say that "Holocaust
revisionism is the great intellectual adventure of the century".
# I aint implying anything McVay. I am saying flat out you is The Man,
# The Heat, The Fuzz; a self-admitted collaborator with the U.S.
# Dept. of Justice, Office of Special Investigations
Ken McVay wrote the OSI, and asked for some transcripts of
interrogation of former SS guards at the death camps. He posted
these transcripts on the net, BTW. What is wrong with that? There
is nothing secret about these transcripts, and nothing wrong
with anyone asking to see them. It's the same as going to a library
and looking for material there. What's your problem, Hoffman old boy?
-Danny Keren.
Article 49365 of alt.conspiracy:
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From: sundell@tezcat.com (Lou Menotti)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Swiss Solar Temple Suicide:The Catholic Connection
Date: 30 Oct 1994 04:09:54 -0600
Organization: Tezcat.COM, Chicago
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <38vrdi$2em@xochi.tezcat.com>
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blue wonder (blue@auckland.blowfish.nz) wrote:
: they were all victims of malicious cimcumstance.
: and money washing
: and the pope was involved
: twice
: bob
Well, that much, I suppose, has been established. I was hoping to glean
a bit more. (Forgive me if I'm a johnny-come-lately on this thread.)
By "the pope", do you refer (also?) to the Propaganda Due lodge? Those
fun-loving guys have also long been involved in money laundering, drugs,
assassinations, mind control and (ahem) god knows what. And much of that
was in cahoots with/with the blessings our own party-hounds, the CIA.
Do you (or anyone else out there--hiya) have any background on this cult
or whatsisname who was the PooBah of the deal? Perchance, even sources
in the Euro press? (These I could go look up at my poor excuse for a
local library.) ...Just askin.
Pax
-- Lou
Article 18438 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Message-ID: <1994Oct31.010858.32693@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 31 Oct 94 01:08:58 -0500
References: <5s7VBb+.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <38caba$b4e@access4.digex.net>
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 13
In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>>>Police agent, Mr. Hoffman?What evidence do you have for such nonsense?What
> are you trying to imply?<<
(deletia)
Mr. Hoffman #2, take it to alt.sex or something, this isn't a porno
group.
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon "How much trouble could a couple of
Miami University scientists get into anyway?"
Oxford, Ohio 45056 -- Marc Singer, _Dead Space_
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------
Article 18443 of alt.revisionism:
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From: choover@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Christopher Hoover)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 31 Oct 1994 00:29:58 -0700
Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3926dm$eo1@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
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hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
[and writes, and writes, and writes, until we get to this puzzling entry:]
>The Nasty Girl. A noble Jewish merchant is murdered by evil Christians.
*blink*
Huh? I have to wonder if Mr. Hoffman2nd has ever _seen_ _The Nasty
Girl_. A German school girl, played wonderfully by Lena Stolze, sets
out, quite innocently, to write an essay on "My Home Town During the
Third Reich," because she's always been told that _her_ town resisted.
The Joos are controlling German cinema now? Incredible.
>Northern Exposures. Features the charming Jewish doctor Joel Fleischman, M.D., a
>lovable curmudgeon (TV Guide).
You mean Fleischman is supposed to be "charming" and "lovable?" And here
I always thought he was spoiled and self-absorbed. Next thing, Mr.
Hoffman2nd will tell us Ed Chigliak isn't really Indian....
Time for Mr. Hoffman2nd's maintenance dose,
Chris
--
Christopher J. Hoover choover@nyx.cs.du.edu Kibo flavor: Unlisted
Disclaimer: standard It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the Net.
Article 18444 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:34:45
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
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In article <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Subject: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
>Date: Sun, 30 Oct 94 13:44:40 -0500
> HATE PROPAGANDA
> in a Human Rights Mask
> Compiled by Michael A. Hoffman II. 1994. All Rights Reserved
>
>
> A documented compendium of hundreds of mendacious movies and TV programs,
>promulgated under the guise of advancing human rights, while negatively
>stereotyping, defaming and libeling Germans and Muslims and advocating the
>servile idolization and adoration of Jews.
>
[Long list deleted to save bandwith, see original !]
Mr Hoffmann,
could you please add data on these films.
Who made them and when ?
I would like to see some of them.
>
>
>
>The following is a list of movies and TV programs concerning the Bolshevik Mass
>Murder of 60 Million Russian Christians perpetrated by such top Jewish
>communists as Trostsky, Apfelbaum (Zinoviev), Uritsky, Kamenev, Berman, Yagoda,
>Frenkel, Kaganovich and Kuhn and on the hunt for Jewish communist war criminals:
>NONE.
>
> The Following is a List of Movie and TV Programs on the Mass Murder of
>Palestinian Women and Children by the Israeli Armed Forces: One: Beirut to
>Bosnia, described by Walter Goodman in the NY Times as ...probably
>simplistic...stir(s) unease about the selection and use of evidence (April 27,
>1994, p. C-18).
>
[Commercial deleted]
>
>
>
>
>
/\\\\
Danny A. Nijburg (@|@)
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2 ~%~
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711 Do unto others.....
Article 18449 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 30 Oct 1994 21:43:02 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 42
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Hey, it's a game we can all play! Mr Hoffman forgot such propaganda
films as:
Naked Gun, Naked Gun 33 1/3 The Smell of Fear:
Evil mastermind with the Germanic-type name of Pap Schmeer fought by
a stupid white detective.
The Evil Dead, The Evil Dead 2, Army of Darkness
Notice how all them zombies was white?
Dawn of the Dead
The only survivors were a black man and his sex-slave white woman
Star Trek: The Next Generation
An entire civilization of colored people (the Klingons) are portrayed
as powerful warriors while the mostly-white Federation are wimps.
In Living Color
Only *2* white comedians in the cast, one who portrays a stupid *white*
firefighter who is continually destroying things
Long Dong Silver
Black men are portrayed as sexually superior to Aryan white males
------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison
The ROTFL Quote of the Week:
McVay is a spy for O.S.I. official Eli Rosenbaum and others of his ilk who seek
to deport and imprison elderly anti-communists but who never investigate or
prosecute Khazar communists living or traveling in the U.S. who were responsible
for atrocities and war crimes against the peasants of Russia and Eastern Europe.
- Michael A. Hoffman II
************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca * My views are not those of the University *
*************** of New Brunswick. UNB never has views on *
* * on anything, ever. *
************************************************************
Article 18450 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 30 Oct 1994 22:03:53 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <391589$ln1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
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...and in a slightly more serious vein, what does Mr. Hoffman have to
say about shows such as:
Law and Order:
Has shown episodes with Jewish criminals, Jewish racism against blacks,
black racism against Jews, corrupt black politicians, fanatical black
civil-rights leaders, corrupt Jewish politicians and lawyers, etc
I'm sure that if we really wanted to, everyone of us could come up with
an impressive list of movies that made disparaging comments about some
ethnic group. And as a final note, I'm sure Mr. Hoffman will happily
present a list of films and shows that have made commentary on the evils
of communism, or where communists have been presented as being evil, or
where the threat of communism is implied, or where communists have been
made to look stupid. Just to assist him, I'll start the list:
Almost all the James Bond Films
Almost all the episodes of "Mission Impossible"
Several episodes of "Voyage Under the Sea"
Almost all the episodes of "Tour of Duty"
"Invasion of the Body Snatchers" (the original)
Several episodes of "The Man From UNCLE"
HBO's film "Stalin"
"Red Dawn"
"Invasion USA"
"The Day After"
"Red Scorpion"
"Black Eagle"
"Young Doctors in Love"
"Rambo, First Blood Part II"
"First Blood Part III"
"Missing in Action"
"Missing in Action II"
"Missing in Action III"
"The Spy Who Came In From the Cold"
"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy"
Several episodes of "X-Files"
"The Naked Gun"
etc etc etc
Get a life, Hoffman, and stop finding conspiracies in everything around
you (Did anyone catch that Sesame Street entry? Sheesh)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison
The ROTFL Quote of the Week:
McVay is a spy for O.S.I. official Eli Rosenbaum and others of his ilk who seek
to deport and imprison elderly anti-communists but who never investigate or
prosecute Khazar communists living or traveling in the U.S. who were responsible
for atrocities and war crimes against the peasants of Russia and Eastern Europe.
- Michael A. Hoffman II
************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca * My views are not those of the University *
*************** of New Brunswick. UNB never has views on *
* * on anything, ever. *
************************************************************
Article 18457 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ooo! Can I play too? (Hollywood Hate Propaganda)
Date: 31 Oct 1994 13:00:03 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
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Message-ID: <392poj$5ma@agate.berkeley.edu>
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In article <391qqn$t0b@netaxs.com>, Brian Trosko wrote:
>Oh yes. Actually, The Three Stooges was also omitted from the above list,
>as it was the first American tv show to promote German hate-propaganda by
>making fun of those evil pratfalling Nazis. For shame.
Although I have never been a particular fan of the Three Stooges, their
famous short did occur to me after I sent in my previous message on this
thread. And, of course, until the advent of Curly Joe, the Three Stooges
personnel was entirely Jewish.
I also thought of another movie for The List.
Top Secret! (with Val Kilmer). Saintly American hero saves the
world from evil degenerate Nazi plan to take over the world. Also
features stereotyping of Germans who cheat at sports ("and now the
East German women's swim team" -- beefy guys in drag). And by far
the best joke in the film is in Yiddish.
Richard "September 30th? But that's Simchas Torah!" Schultz
Article 18460 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman
References: <1994Oct31.191037.9576@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov03.151426.4482@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 94 15:14:26 GMT
In article <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>No, Mr. McVay you have not responded to the charge. You have not answered
>my detailed questions on your position on your government and your human
>rights (so-called) groups and your Canadian Zionist establishment's policy
>of prosecuting and seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail,
>deport and ban writer David Irving. Will you kindly go on record herein
I have made my position clear with regard to Canadian law, Mr.
Hoffman.
By the way, your BSI cannot be improved by further displays of oral
incontinence. It is determined solely by the span of time within
which the spittle originally flows, which is then compared with
Friedrich Berg's record.
--
/^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac
/ @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
\ ~~~~ /
Article 18462 of alt.revisionism:
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From: btrosko@netaxs.com (Brian Trosko)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 2 Nov 1994 03:11:40 GMT
Organization: The Trilateral Commission
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <39701c$q5d@netaxs.com>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <30OCT199415301260@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31OCT199423032542@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <396djq$2ia@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
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Morrison (t08o@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca) wrote:
: And speaking of The Simpsons, he obviously missed the episode that
: maligned the Germans by showing them as businessmen concerned with
: safety, efficiency and results. Maybe they were acting too Joosh
: for Herr Hoffman's fancy...
kAs well as the episode where the Simpson clan attended a car show. The
German car corporation was showing a film of its crash-testing. After
the crash, one crash dummy opens the door and attempts to crawl away.
Lisa: Hey! That's not a dummy!
German: Zis exhibit is now closed!
Brian "Propoganda, plain and simple" Trosko
Article 18463 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Killing of Bernadotte
Date: 31 Oct 1994 06:56 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes...
>Of course the subject of Germans acting abominably has endless
>fascination and >>relevance<< for the anti-Goyites who imagine that
>they are the commissars of proper content in alt.revisionism.
Other than the >>Nazis<< who committed holocaust crimes, what
abominable German acts have been discussed in this group?
Who here is an >>anti-goyite?<< Many of my >>best friends<< are goys!
(Hey, this bracketing stuff sure is fun! I hardly feel a need for my
drugs today now that I have done some >>bracketing<
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Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3926dm$eo1@nyx10.cs.du.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 23:15:49 GMT
Lines: 40
In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
|> Christopher Hoover writes:
|>
|> >The Joos are controlling German cinema now? Incredible.
|>
|> In the Deutsche Banana Republic one goes to prison for doubting the existence
|> of homicidal gas chambers in Auschwitz. [...]
If you are talking about the Federal Republik of Germany (the only
German state left, as far as I know), you are obviously not very good
informed.
You can doubt whatever you want in Germany. You can also (still)
publically or privatly deny the Holocaust without getting in any
conflict with the law. Of course, Holocaust deniers have been
persecuted in Germany, but not for denying the Holocaust but, usually,
for "Incitement of racial Hate". ("No Jew died at Auschwitz. But they
should have. Now go, kill them - and all the Turks, Niggers and Homos,
too.").
There is a new law (which I do not approve of, BTW), which has passed
the legislation and will become effective anytime soon (sorry, I did
not look up the exact date. It will forbid public denial of the
Holocaust. I think this is an overactive stupidity, but then the Swizz
decided to enact a similar law in a public vote...no IJC bugging the
representatives there.
One intersting factoid: If I remember correctly, the German
constitution does not protect "Free Speech" (Freie Rede), but (among
other things) "Free uttering of opinion" (Freie
Meinungsaeuserung). Thus formally the more intelligent half of the
revisionists are not protected :-)
Stephan
-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18465 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman
Date: 01 Nov 1994 19:01:03 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 26
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In-reply-to: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Tue, 1 Nov 94 05:52:06 -0500
In article <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
Ken Mcvay writes:
>On October 26, 1994, I responded to this baseless charge by asking you
No, Mr. McVay you have not responded to the charge. You have not answered
my detailed questions on your position on your government and your human
rights (so-called) groups and your Canadian Zionist establishment's policy
of prosecuting and seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail,
deport and ban writer David Irving. Will you kindly go on record herein
condemning the horrid Canadian-Zionist policy of prosecuting publishers,
teachers and writers? Will you write to the relevant Canadian authorities
like S. Littman, S. Citron and the government of Canada, protesting this
inquisition? What is the position of the Pharisee-worshipping church that
pays you on this issue?
Kindly >>put up or shut up.<<
Say, do you still beat your wife?
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint = A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65 69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2
Unix PGP key fingerprint = 0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA 83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7
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DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.
Article 18467 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Can you help this boy?
References: <1994Oct31.191037.9576@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov03.205236.7100@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 94 20:52:36 GMT
In article flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
>In article <5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>No, Mr. McVay you have not responded to the charge. You have not answered
>my detailed questions on your position on your government and your human
>rights (so-called) groups and your Canadian Zionist establishment's policy
>of prosecuting and seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail,
>deport and ban writer David Irving. Will you kindly go on record herein
>condemning the horrid Canadian-Zionist policy of prosecuting publishers,
>teachers and writers? Will you write to the relevant Canadian authorities
>like S. Littman, S. Citron and the government of Canada, protesting this
>inquisition? What is the position of the Pharisee-worshipping church that
>pays you on this issue?
Isn't it cute, the way Hoffie tries to avoid the original issue,
which was whether or not I supported the "Canadian inquisition"
[which in itself demonstrated Hoffie's ignorance of Canadian juris
prudence, but that's another tale] vis a vis a gaggle of hate
mongers and one pseudo-historian? Apparently, there is something
about the word "no" that confuses the lad... which syllable was it,
do you think?
Truly, if Freddy Berg ever had a student, Hoffie must have been the
star... Wouldn't he make a _lovely_ poster boy for the 1995 International
Joosh Conspiracy funding drive?
("Help Hoffie's Book Sales in Canada, and strengthen the Zionist
Plot to Gain Sympathy Through Exposure of Prime Bergish Ranting!")
>Say, do you still beat your wife?
If not, there's a skinhead lovely in alt.skinheads offering to breed
with Aryan males - I think I'll send her Hoffie's email address..
she sounds _just_ like what the boy needs... a young (17),
relatively stupid, female, willing to mate with anything calling
itself "Aryan," for the expressed purpose of creating dozens of
Little Hoffies... the mind boggles :-)
Ken McVay
(Who, when admonishing his bassett hound not to pee on the carpet,
entirely forgot to tell him to write letters to Etta Goering
complaining about the Dreaded Zionist Conspiracy to Ban Hoffie's
Book So He Couldn't Make As Much Off the Holocaust Industry As He'd
Planned. Damned hound probably wouldn't have spelled "II" correctly
anyway, so dear Etta would have helped the wrong Mikey; and who
overlooked the obvious need to further direct the hound to canvass
the neighborhood seeking "donations" for Hoffie's "research" rag,
thus neglecting his duty to Truth, Honour, and The Aryan Way of
Making Even More Money Off the Pain of Innocents... some days, it
just doesn't pay to get up in the morning...)
"Can you help this boy? Little Hoffie suffers from Berg's Spittle
Complex, but it can be cured! Send your donations to the IJC, c/o
ZOG Local 1205, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada"
--
/^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac
/ @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
\ ~~~~ /
Article 18472 of alt.revisionism:
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From: erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (Eric Doenges)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 31 Oct 1994 16:19:01 +0100
Organization: Technical University of Munich, Germany
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hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
> HATE PROPAGANDA
> in a Human Rights Mask
> Compiled by Michael A. Hoffman II. 1994. All Rights Reserved
>
>
> A documented compendium of hundreds of mendacious movies and TV programs,
>promulgated under the guise of advancing human rights, while negatively
>stereotyping, defaming and libeling Germans and Muslims and advocating the
>servile idolization and adoration of Jews.
Let's look at this list to highlight some error:
>The Eagle Has Landed. Evil Germans plot to kidnap Englands Prime Minister.
This should read: Heroic Falschirmj"agers' plot to kidnap Churchhill fails
because one heroic Falschirmj"ager exposes his identity while saving a British
child, dying heroically while doing this. Noble Germans, cornered in a church
by American soldiers, let their British civilian hostages go before the
Americans storm the church. This movie hardly qualifies as "Anti-German"
>The Odessa File. A blood-thirsty German war criminal and the powerful network
>that protects him create havoc.
And are stopped by a German journalist, who is motivated because his father, a
Wehrmacht officer, was murdered by the war criminal.
>Raiders of the Lost Ark. Stephen Spielberg's film about evil Germans pitted
>against a brave archaeologist.
If you took this movie seriously enough to believe it is anti-German, you need
to have your head examined. The characters are stereotyped enough to come right
out of the 30s - and I believe this was intentional.
>A Bridge Too Far. Director Joseph E. Levine's drama of the Allied struggle
>against evil Germans.
A good war movie, IMHO, that doesn't portray Germans as particulary evil -
only somewhat stupid.
>Murphys War. Savage German murderers run amok in South America.
A good war movie about two fanatics, the allied fanatic more fanatic than the
German sub-commander (who is really only concerned with the safety of his
ship and crew). The allied fanatic sinks the German sub and himself even though
he knows Germany has just surrendered, and the German captain has offered a
cease-fire. Not anti-German, anti-war.
>Sword of Gideon. Heroic Israeli intelligence agents hunt vicious Arab
>terrorists.
And are plagued with moral qualms afterwards, if I remember correctly.
>Black Sunday. Vicious Arab terrorists threaten the Super Bowl.
I only read the book. Pretty good, actually.
>In the Line of Duty: Manhunt in the Dakotas. Heroic government agents hunt
>down Gordon Kahl, an evil White Christian farmer who refuses to pay taxes and
>who is "a murderous true-life religious fanatic with schizophrenic
>tendencies" (TV Guide ).
The hunt is on after Kahl murders government agents. But we all know that
patriotic Americans have the right to kill government officials.
>Misery. Directed by Rob Reiner. A hideously evil White Christian country girl
>tortures a writer from New York City. When he finally escapes she gets her
>just desserts as he beats her ugly White face in. Academy Award-Best Actress.
I don't see where this movie fits in the list. The woman is obviously a mental
case. No religious/racial angle there.
>Cape Fear. (1991). A monstrously evil, Bible-quoting, Southern Pentecostal
>Christian-murderer terrorizes women and children.
Only the man is an ex-inmate who has nothing whatsoever to do with any
religion.
>Yentl. The glories of Jewish heritage and the noble religious spirituality of
>the Talmud are celebrated in this tale of a heroic Jewish girl determined to
>study at a yeshiva.
So ? The film deals with the problems a Jewish woman has studying the talmud -
from Jewish men, not gentiles. Shouldn't be in this list either.
You forgot two of my favourites -
Daffy Duck - Daffy is a lowly allied courier captured by a female german spy.
Three little pigs - the three little pigs battle the evil Hitler-Wolf.
> Authors Note
>Believe it or not, there yet remain to be documented hundreds of additional hate
>films, some of which were broadcast as individual episodes of TV series; and of
>course new ones are constantly in production. April of 1994 probably set a
>record for massive overkill broadcast of Holocaust propaganda on TV. The
>corpus of these teleplays, movies and infotainment documentaries comprise a
>genre which constitutes the most massive and negative stereotyping of people in
>the annals of propaganda, while at the same time representing an unprecedented
>idolization of a Master Race (Jews).
You did leave out all those cold war movies where the Ruskies and their
sattelites are the bad guys - maybe you approve of such "hate films"
> That this stereotyping process is presented attired in the habiliments of
>human rights cant is indicative of how close we have come to the Orwellian
>system of corporate mass mind control foretold in 1984. This was well
>demonstrated by the NY Times criticism of the only film to be nationally
>televised in the U.S. which effectively exposed Israeli war crimes.
> The Times declared that Beirut to Bosnia, ...stir(s) unease about the
>selection and use of evidence. No such unease is ever voiced by establishment
>mouthpieces over the selection and use of evidence in the hundreds of
>Holocaust shows thus far aired.
> Indeed, the slobbering hymn of sychophancy the NY Times composed for Mr.
>Spielbergs Schindlers List never bothered to note the historical fact that
>Commandant Amon Goeth, the movies chief bad guy, was arrested and imprisoned by
>the SS Judiciary for the murder and abuse of prisoners and economic crimes of
>corruption. Spielberg withheld this vital information from his audience, thereby
>producing not history but ever more partisan fantasy. The logic of the New
>World Order consists in the dogma that the propaganda war against us is a human
>rights campaign while our defense against it, is a form of hate. As Orwell
>foretold, War is Peace.
> Until a balance can be struck, the record of lies and group libel will be
>documented in current and successive editions of this report. Wiswell Ruffin
>House wishes to print several thousand copies of this edition for mass
>distribution. We can at least for now remind the world that the cinematic hatred
>directed against us under the guise of fighting hatred is the most cynical and
>despicable hate propaganda of all. -Michael A. Hoffman II, June, 1994
--
(__)
_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/ (oo)
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Eric Doenges /--------\/
_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ (erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de) * o| ||
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ ||----||
Article 18475 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Re: Hoffman Hate Propaganda Documented
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov04.000714.9552@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 94 00:07:14 GMT
In article <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (Eric Doenges) writes:
>hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>> HATE PROPAGANDA
>>stereotyping, defaming and libeling Germans and Muslims and advocating the
>>servile idolization and adoration of Jews.
>Let's look at this list to highlight some error:
[Devastating exposure of Hoffman's intellectual failures deleted]
You overlooked one important reality: Hoffie isn't _interested_ in
facts - he's selling his book, and his "research" rag, and trying to
make money by spreading racial hatred and maximizing Jewish pain.
--
/^\__/^\ The Old Frog's Almanac
/ @ @ \ A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
( ) Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
\ ~~~~ /
Article 18477 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 31 Oct 1994 23:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 11
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Mr. Hoffman,
You fail to appreciate the difference between anti-Nazi movies (which
cast Nazis as evil or as stupid) and anti-German movies.
I submit that while there are many many anti-Nazi movies (and it just
so happens that the Nazis were a small subset of Germans) there are
very few genericly anti-German movies.
===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman - danny@arizona.edu - (602) 621-2932
Article 18483 of alt.revisionism:
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From: philip@cs.brandeis.edu (Philip Trauring)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death Threat Against Revisionist Posted
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 12:18:58 -0500
Organization: Brandeis University
Lines: 27
Message-ID:
References:
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In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
> I wonder what would happen to Khazars (or philo-Khazars) like Schulz if, when
> losing a debate, they did something besides summoning the ghosts of Abe Reles,
> Menachem Begin and other august ice-pick pokers and piano-wire wielders? Or
> perhaps Schulz draws his inspiration from the continuing presence in this mortal
> realm of Shitsack Shamir, architect of the murder of the 53 year old U.N.
> diplomat Folke Bernadotte on Sept. 17, 1948? (Bernadotte had rescued hundreds > of Khazars during World War Two).
First of all, I would like your sources on calling Jews Khazars. It's a
great theory(Come on, Al Sharpton likes it) and I'd like some proof for it.
Althoguh I beleive there was a Khazar nation, and that it did primarily
convert to Judaism, to say that all Jews are Khazars is a bit absurd.
> This too was the >>argument<< meted to University of Lyon Professor of
> Literature Robert Faurisson, who was nearly beaten to death by three agents of
> Betar, the Israeli terrorist gang, just because Faurisson wrote books and
> articles the Israelis could not answer.
Actually Betar is a mainstream youth organization, and by no stretch of the
imagination could it be considered a terrorist gang. In Israel it is
associated with the Herut party which is the major party in the opposition
coalition. What exactly is your source that it was a group of Betar
members?
Philip Trauring
Brandeis University
Article 18487 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 2 Nov 1994 16:49:31 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net>
References: <394i26$l8r@access4.digex.net>
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In article , wrote:
>Michael Stein writes:
>>>I never said anything was wrong with Hoffmans Hebrew! What I said was
>this on 2nd Oct.: >>Your knowledge of Hebrew and Yiddish phrases is truly
>impressive. I wonder if it is as comprehensive as my knowledge of
>martial arts--I know jiu-jitsu, judo, aikido and several other Japanese
>words.<<
>This certainly is a way of saying there is something wrong with my Hebrew.
>It is a way of mockingly saying I have no knowledge of it.
Congratulations on coming up with a weasel that's not too transparent,
but weasel it is. Saying I suspect you are a parrot who only knows
phrases, not the whole language, does not say there is anything wrong with
the phrases you parroted. Therefore it cannot give you the basis you
claimed for saying there is anything wrong with *my* Hebrew. Thanks for
playing; please try again.
>Moreover, as Mr. Stein admits, my reply >>Your Hebrew is not too great<<
>came the next day, Oct. 3, so how could I have been referring to
>anything else except the Oct. 2 statement of Stein?
How indeed? Yet that's not what you said in your previous post. You
*explicitly* mentioned *classical* Hebrew. That concept was not brought
into the discussion until three weeks later - by *me*. Try again,
Pinocchio.
>Stein says:
>>>Hoffman is telling alt.revisionism readers that the reason for his criticism
>of my Hebrew was a comment I HAD NOT MADE YET!<<
>
>Stein has forgotten that this was his schtick in the thread >>Hoffman Should
>Grow Himself a Pair of Testicles,<< not mine. No amount of Talmudic
>dissimulation is going to change that fact.
Huh? The words are English, the sentences parse, but the logical
point is utterly incomprehensible.
Hoffman would *like* people to forget he claimed my Hebrew was not
great based on a reason which didn't exist at the time he made the claim.
However, he did make such a claim. He is therefore a proven liar. No
amount of further lying is going to change that fact.
Mr. Hoffman, I caught you lying. Period. You know it, I know it, and
everyone who read my previous post knows it. Grow yourself a pair of
testicles and admit it like a mensch.
>[complaints about censorship deleted]
As I have said elsewhere, I wouldn't *dream* of censoring you. I
agree with Ken - I want *everyone* to see such a shining example of the
integrity and mental stability of revisionism. In fact, if you didn't
exist, we in the IJC would have had to invent you.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 18490 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 1 Nov 1994 21:57:14 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
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Message-ID: <396djq$2ia@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <30OCT199415301260@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31OCT199423032542@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca
From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Message-ID: <31OCT199423032542@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
> I am curious, why did you omit Hogan's Heroes from your list?
Probably because even the German Commandant and the guards such as
Schultz, bumbling and incompetent idiots they were, did not particularily
like the SS, the Gestapo or even Hitler. Note the expression of
distaste everytime Colonel Klink was forced to salute and say
"Heil Hitler". And Schultz numerous times looked away when the prisoners
were pulling some of their stunts, especially where die-hard Nazis
were involved.
I can't believe I'm analysing the show, but then Herr Hoffman the Second
insists The Simpsons is a vehicle for anti-German propoganda.
And speaking of The Simpsons, he obviously missed the episode that
maligned the Germans by showing them as businessmen concerned with
safety, efficiency and results. Maybe they were acting too Joosh
for Herr Hoffman's fancy...
---------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison
************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca * My views are not those of the University *
*************** of New Brunswick. UNB never has views on *
* * on anything, ever. *
************************************************************
Article 18506 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
In-Reply-To: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca's message of 30 Oct 1994 21:43:02 GMT
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <391416$krt@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:30:03 GMT
Lines: 13
And don't forget "Triumph of the Will" directed by Leni Riefenstahl
which portrays Nazis as a bunch of megalomaniac loons obsessed with
the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin and other strange master-race
fantasies.
(hint: it was commissioned by Hitler.)
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18508 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 1 Nov 1994 21:48:42 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <396d3q$pp@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <391416$krt@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <391589$ln1@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
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In article , wrote:
>Morrison writes:
>
>>I'm sure that if we really wanted to, everyone of us could come up with
>>an impressive list of movies that made disparaging comments about some
>>ethnic group. And as a final note, I'm sure Mr. Hoffman will happily
>
>I would very much like to see such a list. I doubt it would be one-tenth
>the size of the anti-German hate propaganda that has been distributed.
>Heaping filth on the German people is the national pastime of Hollywood.
>
>>ethnic group. And as a final note, I'm sure Mr. Hoffman will happily
>>present a list of films and shows that have made commentary on the evils
>>of communism, or where communists have been presented as being evil, or
>>where the threat of communism is implied, or where communists have been
>>made to look stupid. Just to assist him, I'll start the list:
>
>Gosh, when you get desperate you certainly grasp at some specious straws. It is
>absurd for you to put some generic anti-communist films that cite no specific
>nationality or ethnicity consistently as evil with the massive corpus of
>specifically anti-German hate films. I guess you are trying to find an
>equivalence but there is none. The hate-the-Germans cinematic genre is so
>massive it is unprecedented.
Oh, right, and among those masterpieces of ant-German propoganda
you listed were some such as "Misery", "Cape Fear", which
*your own description* states have absolutely nothing to do with
Germans, Nazis or Judaism.
So don't flail away at me, you hypocritical twit, for proposing
that you find out how many films made communism look bad.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison
************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca * My views are not those of the University *
*************** of New Brunswick. UNB never has views on *
* * on anything, ever. *
************************************************************
Article 18510 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID: <1994Nov3.023120.32986@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 3 Nov 94 02:31:20 -0500
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 53
In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
> Eric Doenges writes:
>
>>>The Eagle Has Landed. Evil Germans plot to kidnap Englands Prime Minister.
>>
>>This should read: Heroic Falschirmj"agers' plot to kidnap Churchhill fails
>>because one heroic Falschirmj"ager exposes his identity while saving a British
>>child, dying heroically while doing this. Noble Germans, cornered in a church
>>by American soldiers, let their British civilian hostages go before the
>
> Just one problem, the Germans never tried to kidnap Churchill but I guess a
> little >>artistic license<< never harmed an agit-prop flick.
Well, the movie sure didn't portray Germans in a bad light,
now did it?
>>The hunt is on after Kahl murders government agents. But we all know that
>>patriotic Americans have the right to kill government officials.
>
> Please do not expose your ignorance any further by making comments on what you
> no nothing about. Unlke the denizens of the Deutsche Banana Republik who have
> exchanged blind fealty to Hitler for blind fealty to Judaism and the State,
> Americans (many of German descent) have a long history of individual liberty and
There are plenty of Germans who take pride in the nation they
spent the last fifty+ years building. I doubt very highly they'd
appreciate your insult.
I mean really, it is _you_ who is attacking Germans, particualrly
those who have worked very hard to rebuild it.
Who's the anti-German here?
> distrust of central power and authority. You bet your life patriotic Americans
> have the right to kill government officials when they act like tyrants. We have
> been doing it since 1776. It is what kept us free for the first 80 years of our
> Republic.
The first 80 years of our republic ended in 1856, if we count 1776
as the starting date. That's painfully close to the civil war.
Are you then claiming that the Civil War ended our freedom?
=======================================================================
Brian Harmon "...God sets us nothing but riddles.."
Miami University -Dostoyevski's _The Brothers Karamazov_
Oxford, Ohio 45056 yeech! ackphtbt! ungh!
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------
Article 18514 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 21:11:30 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 27
Message-ID:
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
<30OCT199415301260@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
<31OCT199423032542@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
<396djq$2ia@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-01.dialip.mich.net
hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
> As I have already stated, I have juxtaposed the mindless piety and
> veneration such as was exhibited even in a normally irreverent cartoon
> like >>Simpsons<< toward the Talmud and Judaism
Oh, you mean like when Krusty the Clown has a guest on his show who
mentions that Krusty's Jewish, and Krusty hushes him up? The next
lines go something like this:
Guest: "Krusty, why you wanna deny your heritage?"
Krusty (sternly, out of the corner of his mouth): "Ixnay on the Ew-jay!"
I guess you had to be there.
Krusty sells his own line of pork products.
He's constantly depicted as a fat slob who's rude and inconsiderate to
everyone around him.
And Mr. Hoffman II thinks that's "mindless piety and veneration."
Yeah, sure...
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
"I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
I realize that is not risk-free" - Daniel Rice
Article 18522 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID: <1994Nov3.143831.14344@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Sender: news@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de (Unix-News-System)
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Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3926dm$eo1@nyx10.cs.du.edu> <1994Nov1.231549.317@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:38:31 GMT
Lines: 20
In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
|> Stephan Schulz writes:
|>
|> >You can doubt whatever you want in Germany. You can also (still)
|> >publically or privatly deny the Holocaust without getting in any
|>
|> This is false. Several Germans have already been imprisoned for doubting
|> the gas chambers. Fred Leutcher is a wanted fugitive in Germany for jumping
|> bail and missing his trial. --Michael A. Hoffman II
What a brilliant display of reading comprehension and in-context
quoting. Thanks.
Stephan
-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18527 of alt.revisionism:
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From: smullins@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott H Mullins)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Date: 1 Nov 1994 14:49:33 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 22
Distribution: world,local
Message-ID: <395kht$os4@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <38uejm$hj9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3930fc$ic@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
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In article hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>When describing Ken McVay, a paid prostitute of the Sanhedrin-Inquisition
>against writers, teachers and publishers in Canada, it is most fitting and
>appropriate to make a graphic comparison with the whoredoms of Babylon.
Still no evidence for this, eh?
[del]
>Alt.revisionism is for those who can handle 100 proof debate. If this is too
>much for your Pollyanna taste, go post in alt.infant.
Hee-hee. Oh, yeah, your posts are _really_ bothering me! You better
stop now. I'm going to try to censor you! The CIA is beaming
thought control rays at you RIGHT NOW! We'll have your brain
for the Zionist world conspiracy any day now.
Whatever you do, PLEASE DON'T POST ANYMORE! It really, really,
really, really, really, really, really, really bothers me.
--
Scott
smullins@ecn.purdue.edu
Article 18532 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 4 Nov 1994 04:31:29 GMT
Organization: Mits BBS, Helsinki, Finland (40+ Nodes +358-0-4582066)
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <39cdf1$7ko@prime.mdata.fi>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: mits.mdata.fi
In article ,
Barry Shein wrote:
>Ok, you're on: Two recent movies portraying obviously Jewish stars as
>scum:
In "Carlito's Way" there is that very stereotyped and very disgusting
Jewish character - Carlito's lawer.
"Once Upon a Time in America" by Sergio Leone is about a Jewish mob.
Hmm... I just wonder why I take part in this discussion...? Very
strange.
>--
> -Barry Shein
>
>Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
>Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
--
Kari Nenonen - kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi - Skepsis r.y.
Maavallintie 4 - Tel: 358-0-5636625 - Helsingin Scifiseura
00430 Helsinki - The Finnish Dramatists' Society - Wan.Her.Tiet.Kirj.N.H
Finland - The Writers' Union of Finland - The International J.C.
Article 18533 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Date: 2 Nov 1994 23:41:55 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <399843$s26@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <1994Nov01.085847.19144@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
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From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
Message-ID:
>Readers ought to be aware that Mr. McVay resides in one of the most repressive
>thought control nations of all, Canada.
Then perhaps Hoffie Squared might be able to explain why this most
repressive of thought control nations has produced political satirists known
nation-wide like the Royal Canadian Air Farce and Double Exposure, two
comedy troups who make their money off lampooning *all* politicians,
groups and individuals across the spectrum.
>This is how tightly the
>lid is on the facts about what Canada does to revisionists. This is not a minor
>phenomenon.
Canadians know full well about Zuendal, Keegstra and Ross, thank you very
much. I'm gald you know more about what we do than we do.
>Video stores are raided, booksellers are terrorized, books
>are banned (the Royal Canadian Mounted Police >>Mounties,<Canadian college library in order to seize two copies of Prof. Arthur Butz book
>>>The Hoax of the 20th Century).<<
Names, please. Better be careful naming the University too, because we
don't have that many and I know all of them, so don't even bother trying
to make up a name.
>Oh, what a blunder I have made. They are not paying you a salary they are
>funneling a salary to you through a tax-exempt fund. So you are not a paid
>prostitute you are a tax-exempt prostitute. Now I get it. Thanks for edifying
>me, for a while there I thought the Pharisee-idolizing United Church of Canada
>was giving you money to continue your policemans function here on the Net.
As I've made it clear before, I'm not an active member of the United Church,
but I still get just a little annoyed when someone as ignorant of it as
Hoffie Squared makes pronouncements on it. You see, Hoffie, the UCC, as
I have tried to explain in a previous post, is not set up like many churches
with a hierarchical structure, so by condemning the UCC, you are implicitely
condemning hundreds of thousands of people, including my family. I dislike
people ascribing beliefs and motivces to my family.
>What you and the despicable hirelings who betray the gospel of Jesus Christ who
>finance you are doing is advancing the suzerainty of the Israelis by raising
>them into a Master Race class that is above criticism, investigation and
>scrutiny.
"These things I command you, that ye love one another." John 15:17
Your own record on following the gospels is pretty bad.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison
************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca * My views are not those of the University *
*************** of New Brunswick. UNB never has views on *
* * on anything, ever. *
************************************************************
Article 18534 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ooo! Can I play too? (Hollywood Hate Propaganda)
Date: 3 Nov 1994 22:44:03 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <39bp3j$mf9@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <396c1a$qeo@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca> <39857a$om5@agate.berkeley.edu>
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In article <39857a$om5@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Richard Schultz wrote:
>In article <396c1a$qeo@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>,
>Morrison wrote:
>
>>May the Great Bird of the Galaxy punish your sacreligious blatther by
>>sending a thousand Ferengi encyclopedia salesmen to your door.
> ^^^^^^^
>
>Speaking of sacrilege. The "New" Star Trek is the work of the Devil and
>should never be mentioned in the same breath as the Real Thing. Think of
>it as you would think of "New" Coke vs. The Real Thing. (The substitution
>of corn syrup fo sugar in "Classic" Coke may be compared to the way they
>butcher the Original 79 in order to make room for more commercials.)
>
>You are hereby sentenced to exile on Ceti Alpha 5.
>
> Richard Schultz
...and the Great Bird came down upon the Earth and heard the pleas of
his apostles. "Oh, Gene," they crieth (for they knoweth the nameth
thateth he hath been calleth byeth hiseth pareneth), "we seek more of
your enlightenment, for the Original 79 has been upon our minds and we
seek for Trek renewed, for the wise men say one can watch every episode
but ten times before the brain goes to mush."
And the Great Bird of the Galaxy spoke and said "Let us cast a crew and
get better effects. Let us seek those who can act without...having...
the...need...to...pause...between...every...word. Let us gather the
writers so that they may make worthy social comment. Let us get tall
female extras in skintight suits to satisfy the testosterone-crazed
male fans."
And lo, it was done, and the wise man said, "It is good. Except for those
brainless episodes that all fans do detest and that little twerp Wesley,
it is a worthy successor. For the Great Bird and his wisemen do say that
it is different, of temper and meaning from that of the Original 79.
And we like the Klingons better."
And all fans held counsel and decided that they were indeed different,
one from the other. And those who decry that the New defiles the legend
of the old, hear this our words.
Wouldst thou have Bones examining your sores rather than the doctor babe
Beverly?
Article 18535 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 3 Nov 1994 22:46:34 GMT
Organization: University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB, Canada
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <39bp8a$n1h@sol.sun.csd.unb.ca>
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In article , wrote:
>Stephan Schulz writes:
>
>>You can doubt whatever you want in Germany. You can also (still)
>>publically or privatly deny the Holocaust without getting in any
>
>This is false. Several Germans have already been imprisoned for doubting
>the gas chambers. Fred Leutcher is a wanted fugitive in Germany for jumping
>bail and missing his trial. --Michael A. Hoffman II
...as he would be in any other country for jumping and running.
So he's a criminal *and* a liar. Your point?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison
************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca * My views are not those of the University *
*************** of New Brunswick. UNB never has views on *
* * on anything, ever. *
************************************************************
Article 18537 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Message-ID:
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 05:15:21 GMT
Lines: 100
Philip Trauring (philip@cs.brandeis.edu) wrote:
: In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
: > I wonder what would happen to Khazars (or philo-Khazars) like Schulz if, when
: > losing a debate, they did something besides summoning the ghosts of Abe Reles,
: > Menachem Begin and other august ice-pick pokers and piano-wire wielders? Or
: > perhaps Schulz draws his inspiration from the continuing presence in this mortal
: > realm of Shitsack Shamir, architect of the murder of the 53 year old U.N.
: > diplomat Folke Bernadotte on Sept. 17, 1948? (Bernadotte had rescued hundreds > of Khazars during World War Two).
: First of all, I would like your sources on calling Jews Khazars. It's a
: great theory(Come on, Al Sharpton likes it) and I'd like some proof for it.
: Althoguh I beleive there was a Khazar nation, and that it did primarily
: convert to Judaism, to say that all Jews are Khazars is a bit absurd.
First of all there are two sources for the Khazar connection at:
ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/Bible Facts_are_Facts (by B. Freedman)
ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/history 13th_Tribe_Review (Koestler)
Here is a newspaper article as well:
"The Jews That Aren't"
by Leo Heiman: Copley News Service
San Diego Union - August 28, 1966
Tel Aviv
Nathan M. Pollock has a beef with the Israeli government.
His elaborate plans to celebrate this September the 1,000th
anniversary of the Jewish-Khozar alliance were summarily rejected.
An elderly, meek-looking man who migrated to Israel from Russia 43
years ago, Pollock ekes out a living as a translator of scientific texts
and proofreader in a publishing firm.
But his great passion, hobby and avocation is historic research.
HE has devoted 40 of his 64 years to trying to prove that six out of
10 Israelis and nine out of 10 Jews in the Western Hemisphere are not
real Jews' Jews, but descendants of fierce Khozar tribes which roamed the
steppes of southern Russia many centuries ago.
For obvious reasons the Israeli authorities are not at all eager to
give the offical stamp of approval to Pollock's theories.
"For all we know, he may be 100 per cent right," said a senior
goverment official. "In fact, he is not the first one to discover the
connection between Jews and Khozars. Many famous scholars, Jews and
non-Jews, stressed these links in their historical research works.
"But who can tell today what percentage of Khozar blood flows in our
veins, if at all? And who can declare with any degree of scientific
accuracy which Jews are Jews and which descendants of this Tartar-Mongol
race?
"As a matter of fact, our alleged descent from the Khozars is the
central theme of Arab propaganda," he added. "The Arabs claim most
European Jews have no right to be in Israel in the first place because
they are not descended from Biblical Hebrews, but from Tartar-Mongol
nomad tribes, including the Khozars who were converted to Judaism en
masse 1,000 years ago."
Scientific opinion in Israel is divided on the subject. No one
argues the basic premise: that a group of 12,000 Jews, fleeing from
perseuction and wars in the Holy Land, in the wake of Byzantine and
Moselm conquests, made the long overland trek to Persia, crossed the
territory of today's Turkestan in Central Asia and found asylum in the
Khozar Kingdom, which occupied a vast area between the Caspian Sea, Volga
River, Ural Mountains, Black Sea and the Polish borderlands.
In the year 965 the Khozars were defeated for the first time in 500
years by Prince Sviatoslav of Kiev. King Bulan III of Khozaria concluded
that Prince Sviatoslav emerged victorious from the war because his troops
and mercenaries were Christians, while his nomads were pagan worshipers.
The king and his nobles embraced Judaism in 965, and in 966 a royal edict
was passed enforcing Judaism as the only legal religion in the Khozar
Kingdom. Tribesmen had to undergo circumcision, learn Hebrew prayers and
recognize Jewish rabbis as their spiritual leaders - on pain of death.
As other Jews who were persecuted in the Middle East, medieval Europe
and Spain at the time, heard of the new Jewish-Khozar kingdom, rumors
spread that the Messiah had arrived at long last. There were several
consecutive migration waves to Khozaria, via Persia, Greece and Poland.
Pollock believes the traditional Russian anti-Semitism probably stems
from that epoch when Hebrew-speaking Khozar raiders attacked Russian
villages, killed the men folk, abducted women, forcibly converted them to
Judaism and married them in full-fledged religious ceremonies. This also
would explain why so many European Jews are blond and blue-eyed, with
slight Mongol slant to their eyes, as well as the total absence of
Semitic features among many Israelis of European descent.
The flourishing Jewish-Khozar Kingdom was destroyed in 1239 by the
Mongol invasion of Batu Khan.
Following the Mongol invasion and conquest, surviving members of
Jewish-Khozar tribes trekked west and settled in Poland, Hungary,
Bohemia, Austria, Romania, and the Ukraine.
How can one find out if he is a "Khozar Jew" or a "Hebrew Jew?"
According to Pollock, whose parents came from Poland, if your name is
Halperin, Alpert, Halpern, Galpern, etc., you are a 100 per cent Khozar.
"Alper" means "brave knight" in the Khozar tongue, and the name was
granted by the king to the most distinguished warriors. Names like
Kaplan, Caplon, Koppel, and the like are positive proof of Khozar
descent, according to the scholar. "Kaplan" means "fierce hawk" in the
Khozar language. Kogan, Kagan, Kaganovich show aristocratic descent from
Kagan-Hagan, King Bulan's chief minister. (EOA)
--
_____________________Rick Savage ______________________
| Important files on life, liberty and happiness: Rick Savage |
| Anonymous FTP server: ftp.netcom.com - "cd pub/SFA" PO Box 5251 |
| Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues Denver, CO 80217 |
Article 18538 of alt.revisionism:
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From: t08o@adrastea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 3 Nov 1994 23:16:09 GMT
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From: gt91rdj@brunel.ac.uk (Ricardo D Joshua)
Message-ID:
>That's all for now...
Thank heaven for small miracles. Don't you love it when one revisionist
heartily agrees with the comments of another revisionist that everyone
else thinks is completely out to lunch?
BTW Ricky, how is the INtestinal Genital REsistance Movement (INGREM)
these days?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Morrison
************************************************************
*t08o@unb.ca * My views are not those of the University *
*************** of New Brunswick. UNB never has views on *
* * on anything, ever. *
************************************************************
Article 18539 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 2 Nov 1994 09:36 MST
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In article , dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg) writes...
>In article <31OCT199423103282@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
>> I submit that while there are many many anti-Nazi movies (and it just
>> so happens that the Nazis were a small subset of Germans) there are
>> very few genericly anti-German movies.
>On what basis do you define the Nazis as a >SMALL< subset of Germans?
>In the last legal elections they got the largest number of votes of all
>parties.
The last legal elections were held in November 1932. The Nazis got
33.1 percent of the vote. This was their peak in free and open
elections.
After a decade of economic depression, and after several years of
infighting and assassinations which weakened the other far-right
parties in Germany, the Nazis peaked at about one third of the popular
electoral vote. I still submit that their following was a small subset
of Germans.
Remember, times were very bad in Germany in 32. Hitler ran a populist
campaign blaming the problems on Jews and outsiders. People were fed
up with the current government, saw them as ineffective (which may well
have been true) and were open to change. Other far-right parties were
in shambles beccause of infighting. Hitler may have looked like a
viable option to many among the lower educated working classes. But
getting 1/3 of the votes do not make 1/3 of Gemany Nazis.
And, correct me if I am wrong - I don't have reference materials in
front of me, wasn't the November 32 campaign a rather dirty campaign
with lot of lies (more than the usual) being spread? Did people really
understand what they were voting for in 32?
===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman - danny@arizona.edu - (602) 621-2932
Article 18540 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hoffman's Kastner claim stands up
Date: 3 Nov 1994 20:34:35 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article <5I9WTMU.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>, wrote:
>From Michael A. Hoffman II
>
>Mike Stein says >>I suspect that no matter what I may cite favorable to
>Kastner, if it comes from any other source, Hoffman will simply say it
>is a whitewash.<< >
>Mr. Stein, you may cite in favor of Kastner as much as you like. Since you
>are in favor of a Nazi collaborator maybe McVay will open a surveillance
>file on you.
I never said that I was in favor of Kastner. I am in favor of the
truth and the normal standards of scholarly writing, which includes
presentation of documented evidence rather than unsubstantiated
assertion. I am also opposed to double standards.
Mr. Hoffman has been rather coy about presenting his sources, and the
ones that he did give as evidence are not at all conclusive in support of
his assertion (see below for more). Therefore I have made no secret of
the fact that I have been highly suspicious of the rest of his claims, and
have been hectoring him for his sources in order to verify them. This is
something any honest scholar should have no problem with. Hoffman played
silly games with acronyms. Nonetheless, his source - Lenni Brenner's
"Zionism in the Age of the Dictators" - was easily recognizable.
I have no problem announcing that in my opinion Mr. Hoffman is
presenting Brenner's book honestly. Brenner draws heavily on Ben Hecht's
"Perfidy," and obviously feels that Kastner sold out 450,000 Hungarian Jews
to save about 1,000 young Zionists plus some wealthy people (they were
needed to pay a ransom demanded by Eichmann), plus his friends and family.
Brenner does present the argument of Kastner's defenders that he
concluded that he was trying to save what he could, concluding that
resistance was futile and the alternative was that *everyone* would have
died, albeit perhaps with some additional inconvenience and deaths inflicted
on the Nazis. It's pretty clear Brenner does not find this defense terribly
compelling.
The most telling point, to me, is Kastner's failure to act on behalf
of Hannah Szenes, something which wouldn't have interfered with the rescue
deal. But if Kastner really did what he did from honest motives, after
the war it seems he lacked the testicles to stand up forthrightly and say,
"Yes, I did all this - I sent hundreds of thousands to their death, but I
did it to send 1,300 to life. Resistance might have saved more, but it
might have lost all. I don't know and you don't know; I was the one who
was there and this is how I chose. Yes, I succumbed to human feelings
and asked for consideration for members of my family." (Actually, the
deal was for 1,300, but it turned out to be over 1,700 as a few hundred
others jumped on the train.)
The testimony on behalf of Becher (which the Israeli high court
concluded was perjured) is intriguing, since in his original affidavit
(PS-2605) Kastner said that he thought Becher was only being nice in order
to give himself an alibi. Why Kastner made that derogatory statement in
PS-2605 but was more favorable later is an interesting question. I
suspect (but idly so, I have no real evidence) that Kastner's behavior on
the witness stand was undertaken in order to conceal his own behavior
during that time - perhaps Becher threatened to spill the beans unless
Kastner played ball at the trial. (Again, this is just speculation, I
admit freely that I have zero evidence.)
I demanded the right to check up on Hoffman, I investigated his source,
here are my findings. There is another side to the story, which Mr. Hoffman
didn't mention, but at least this time he is not reading too much into a
source. From what is in Brenner's book one can *honestly* and
*legitimately* draw the same conclusion as Hoffman does. (For the record, I
do too.)
I am utterly dumbfounded as to why he was so evasive on a point where
he *did* have grounding while giving such inconclusive references on the
exact reasons for Goeth's arrest - frankly, I figured that if his Goeth
references were that bad, what he *didn't* present must be even worse. In
this case it wasn't. *Now* I'm surprised. (Happy, Mr. Hoffman?)
Brenner does not mention anything about Kastner's dealings with
Schindler, however. And I still say Hoffman's reaching several
light-years when he claims that the true reason Spielberg omitted mention
of Kastner is to conceal information unfavorable to Zionism. I would hope
that even Mr. Hoffman would concede that it would have been ludicrous for
Spielberg to digress so far from the main thread of Schindler's story as
to show the later actions of a man who played only a tangential part in
Schindler's story.
So even if the Kastner meeting had been shown, few in the audience would
have been the wiser. Yet Hoffman seems to think that if only Kastner had
been shown, everyone in the audience would have learned *all* the shocking
truth. Or something like that; I have no hope of following his bizarre
logic here.
Nevertheless, despite his silly games Mr. Hoffman did provide a good
source and a defensible claim; for this I award him a cookie. I've happily
beaten him up for lying and for producing sources that don't adequately say
what he claims they do, but I'm just as happy to publicly acknowledge those
cases where a revisionist's claims do stand up. (I want to encourage
good behavior.)
>>>You see, by Hoffmans rules, information favorable to Nazis is always
>true.<<
>
>Now comes the mendacious stereotyping so dear to Mr. Steins tribe.
The above statement about my "tribe" is, of course, the mendacious
stereotyping so dear to Mr. Hoffman (but *not* his tribe).
I was being sarcastic and hyperbolic, yes. But I do maintain that
Hoffman is making a claim - that Goeth was charged with *murder* by the SS
- based on a completely unjustifiable reading of the documents he claims
support him. I still sincerely doubt he would accept such a claim based
on such ambiguous writing if it were presented *against* Nazis or to
*defend* Jews. Perhaps he will have the opportunity to prove me wrong.
>This writer is an anti-Nazi. I have published material against the Nazis
>in >>Revisionist Researcher Magazine.<< Information exposing Hitler and
>the NSDAP as dictatorial or murderous is fine by me so long as it is
>based on fact.
As a matter of fact, this is exactly my position on Kastner. If you
give your sources like an honest scholar and they say what you say they
say, I am happy.
I am just sick and tired of seeing revisionists repeating assertion
after assertion and never offering any evidence, or at best vague
paraphrases or heavily edited quotes from uncertain sources, yet
demanding they must receive infinite amounts of proof to a standard they'd
never dream of requiring for anything else. (If they *were* consistent in
that high standard, I suppose I might think them nutty, but I couldn't
call them hypocrites.)
When I find lies, distortions, half-truths, specious arguments, and
evasions, I point them out - and I've done it when the topic has nothing
to do with revisionism, or when the illegitimate arguments are raised by
those with whom I would otherwise agree. (For example, the gratuitous
references to the private sex life of a revisionist I shall not name.) But
on those all-too-rare occasions that I find a revisionist bringing forward
claims with real support, I roll over like a kitten.
Actually, I am compelled to note that Mr. Hoffman hasn't yet expressed
any actual Holocaust denial that I have seen, just frenzied Jew-bashing
and complaints that too much attention is being focused on German crimes
and that they are exaggerated. (If he had read my article on the human
soap experiments described by Mazur and the British POWs, he'd know I have
had occasion to make the last point myself.)
So I suppose I should ask him once more what *does* he believe about
Nazi treatment of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, etc.? Maybe I *have*
stereotyped him - I still think he's a kook, but perhaps he's not quite
the *type* of kook I thought he was.
>Spielbergs movie >>Schindlers List<< stereotypes the entire German army
>as homicidal robots and it portrays the German military hierarchy as
>sanctioning Commandant Goeths crimes of murder when in fact, as Morgen
>and Obersturmbannfuehrer Mittelstaedt testified, he was arrested by the
>SS because of those crimes.
The precise nature of the charges against Goeth is still not clear (see
below).
Again, I see here a double standard. Hoffman feels that the actions
of Morgen *must* be presented, because they show that the German hierarchy
did *not* sanction the crimes of the commandants. However, his position
is weakened when one notes that the investigation into Koch met with over
a year of opposition from Himmler, which suggests that part of the
hierarchy (and Reichsfu"hrer SS Himmler was a pretty *important* part, I
think Hoffman would agree!) *did* sanction the crimes.
The whole story is fairly complex and seems to have involved some
personal emnity between Karl Koch and Prinz von Waldeck-Pyrmont, Thuringian
SS leader and police chief. Morgen would seem to have been a man of
integrity, but it's very easy to suspect some of the others were primarily
interested not in justice, but a power play, and just used the crimes as a
convenient weapon to beat up on their political enemies. (See Feig,
Connilyn: "Hitler's Death Camps" [Holmes & Meier, 1979] pp. 105-106.)
Yet Hoffman seems to feel that even *mentioning* one bad Zionist apple -
Kastner - discredits all of Zionism, so that's why Spielberg omitted it.
(I don't consider myself a Zionist, by the way.)
>Mr. Stein has given the wrong Mittelstaedt affidavit (this is not his fault).
Thank you. I looked in the obvious place, the index of NMT documents,
and came up with NO-1875, so I assumed that was what you meant. But your
willingness to agree that my actions were reasonable, and not shout that I
KNEW that there were two Mittelstaedt affidavits and DELIBERATELY produced
the wrong one, is a pleasant surprise (two in one posting!) and is
appreciated.
I can't resist noting, however, that his raises still further the
amount of material you insist Spielberg had a duty to wade through without
any real reason to think it would produce anything relevant to his purposes.
>I am reproducing the relevant one here from Critchleys translation.
>[...]
>The following was written by Kurt Mittelstaedt, SSJudge Konrad Morgens
>superior officer, circa December, 1945. It is from a U.S. Army War
>Crimes investigations document. Mittelstaedt was chief of the highest SS
>Court in the H.A.G. (at Munich):
>
>>>The investigations conducted by SSJudges led to about 200 sentencings of
>SS members...The following overview makes clear in a short summary the
>extent and goals of the investigations...Plaszow and Scebnie near Crakow:
>investigations against the commandant, members of the commandantures and
the former SS and Police Fuehrer of Warsaw, SSOberfuehrer Scherner,
>because of killing and abuse of prisoners and because of crimes of
>corruption.<<
Unfortunately this suffers from the same problem as Morgen's
affidavit, plus another one. There is a fairly long list of people (not
only Commandant Goeth and the commandant of Scebnie, but members of the
commandantures) followed by a list of crimes, with no clear way to link
specific names with specific crimes. (The Morgen affidavit also suffered
from this problem.) Also, the Mittelstaedt affidavit in any event talks
not about *indictments* but *investigations*. Even if Goeth *was*
investigated for murder, this does not mean that he was - as Hoffman
claimed - *arrested* for it (that is, the investigation turned up enough
evidence for the SS to bring the charge). So again this document does
not say as much as Hoffman thinks it does.
Once more I *must* emphasize that I do not claim that any of this
proves that Goeth *wasn't* charged with murder - only that this point has
not been definitely established yet. But I am on solid ground in saying
Mr. Hoffman was reading too much into the documents he has; they are too
ambiguous to *prove* that Goeth was charged with anything other than
corruption, which is all that the unambiguous sources - Keneally and
Ainsztein - say. I frankly doubt it, but I'm ready to be convinced
otherwise by an unambigous document.
>In his Oct. 28 post, Mr. Stein alleges that he knew about about Morgens
>testimony about Goeth before I informed him of it:>>It is old news. I knew
>about it earlier...<< Yet on Oct. 22, Stein wrote:>>But after Hoffmans latest
>post, I had an opportunity to take a peek at vol. 42, p. 556. It contains an
>affidavit from Morgen...<<
>
>You should try to keep your lies straight Mr. Stein.
Really, Mr. Hoffman. Are you truly so blinded by your hate that you
cannot see the utterly obvious explanation - that I saw the information
somewhere besides the actual IMT volume? (A posting by Danny Keren, to be
precise.)
>I note that Stein-the-bluffer cannot refute my assertion that the reference
>to >>other versions<< in the footnotes of Danby and Soncino are to
>censored and falsified translations.
In other words, Mr. Hoffman makes a charge against the Talmud though
he refuses to present any evidence, and says it is my duty to run all over
creation to find thousand-year-old texts to prove it innocent.
Well, I have a very simple refutation. Mr. Hoffman *is* a liar - as I
have already proven conclusively in another thread. However, even if I
had not already established his deceitful nature (by demonstrating that he
claimed to have based a comment on a statement of mine which was not made
until 19 days *after* his comment), by his own rules it's OK to make
assertions and claim the other person bears the burden of proving
innocence. Therefore I'll just assert he's lying about the Talmud and say
it's his job to prove he's not lying. I am only applying his own rules
here; how can he object?
But all this is actually rather beside the point, since Mr. Hoffman
had claimed that *Spielberg* falisified the Talmud (by accurately
portraying the inscription on a ring?!). Since Hoffman has also claimed
the falsification took place in the 13th century or thereabouts, this would
be some trick on Spielberg's part! Perhaps therefore George Lucas's
Industrial Light and Magic helped out in this falsification - Lucas and
Spielberg are good buddies, I understand.
>Nor does he dare to attempt to challenge my destruction of his
anti-semitism canard.
Excuse me, but what destruction of what anti-semitism canard? If you
mean the Khazar thing, that would be irrelevant regardless of its truth!
You and everyone else know perfectly well what I meant. Choosing your own
nonstandard definitions of terms and arguing against it is hardly a
legitimate refutation; it's sophistry. Your "destruction" self-destructs
without any effort on my part.
And there is something you don't know about my family tree which
indicates I do indeed have Hebrew blood. But I won't present that evidence
- by your own rules, it's your job to prove my assertion wrong. Can you
even guess what I might be referring to?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 18547 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 3 Nov 1994 18:10:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 13
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In article , wrote:
>I shall reverse your question: Does this mean that any film showing
>a criminal ofthe Jewish religion is anti-Jewish? If the Jewish
>identification is explicit the ADL, Simon Wiesenthal Center and other
>thought cop groups would regard it as such.
"Once Upon a Time in America" (see the uncut version, it's much
better). Jewish gangsters, but not at all an anti-Jewish movie. Has
anyone heard of the ADL, SWC, etc. protesting it? I haven't.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 18548 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Message-ID:
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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References:
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:45:38 GMT
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
: Would someone please explain this fascination with Khazars?
: A few observations:
: 1. Apparently the big point here is that if a lot of modern-day
: Euroepean Jews descended from Khazars then this somehow breaks the
: link to Israel.
: a) Does anyone doubt the link between Israel and the
: Jewish *religion*?
Not anymore than one would doubt the link between the Moonies
and the teaching of Jesus Christ.
The point being Judaism is merely a religion that claims descent
from Biblical Israel but is the complete opposite of these beliefs in
actual practice.
Is this an admission that the modern day "Jews" of Judaism have no
physical link to Biblical Israelites, as the 1980 Jewish Almanac
confirms? This admission would make me happy if you would also then
include an admission that the "Jews" are not "God's Chosen People," "The
People of the Book (Bible)," and/or "The Jews of the Old & New Testament".
Can I use you as a reference in correcting the many Christians who
believe these lies then?
: I don't get it, except if one postulates that the only reason Israel
: has any right to exist is on the belief that every single (or even
: most) Jew living in Israel is descended from someone who left Israel
: only in the diaspora. Does anyone seriously believe this point exists
: much beyond a spiritual point of view?
Yes, many "Christian" Zionists belief this fiction beyond the
"spiritual" point of view. You would do them a service by correcting
this misconception.
: That's independent of whether or not you are comfortable with that
: spiritual point of view. I'm not, particularly.
Why not?
: Personally my view of Israel is basically political; the British
: controlled it, they basically yielded it to the immigrating Jews who
: certainly had more reason to pick Israel/Palestine to head towards
: than, say Madagascar or the Fiji Islands, and that's where it stands.
Why do you suppose the British yielded palestine to the the
immigrating "Jews" of Judaism? Was the British decision just and legal
per International Law? Were the Palestines every paid reprarations for
their lost lands, businesses and homes much like the "Jews" collect from
Germany today?
: As a thought exercise: Do any of the descendants of white europeans
: feel they have any right to live in North America that isn't
: summarized by: We fooking took it, so now it's ours, just *try* to pry
: us out and we'll nuke your sorry butts to kingdom come!?
Absolutely. The Indians claimed less than 3% of the land legally.
The white europeans played by the Indians own rules. The indians were
killing each other off for decades before the whites came. The whites
just played their own game, but were more effective at it.
Get the file "Indians.txt" by anon. FTP:
ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/history
for the complete legal arguement over the land issue in America.
: And what any of this has to do with whether or not the holocaust
: occurred escapes me, except inasmuch as that now that that issue has
: been raised seems to have drawn every jew-basher out of the woodwork.
The holocaust legend is at the heart of the politics of the illegal
bandit state of Israeli in Palestine. It is supported by Zionist
Christians because of this guilt inspiring propaganda hoax.
--
_____________________Rick Savage ______________________
| Important files on life, liberty and happiness: Rick Savage |
| Anonymous FTP server: ftp.netcom.com - "cd pub/SFA" PO Box 5251 |
| Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues Denver, CO 80217 |
Article 18549 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay a "police agent?"
Date: 5 Nov 1994 02:51:17 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
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[Hoffman's text deleted]
Hoffman, either you're trolling in order to make revisionists look
*really* stupid, or you need psychotherapy. Really.
- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
"...For Mercy has a human heart, | "Cruelty has a Human Heart,
Pity a human face, | And Jealousy a Human Face,
And Love, the human form divine, | Terror the Human Form Divine,
And Peace, the human dress." - SoI| And Secrecy the Human Dress." -SoE.
Article 18554 of alt.revisionism:
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From: karlpov@access1.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ooo! Can I play too? (Hollywood Hate Propaganda)
Date: 3 Nov 1994 12:53:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
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t08o@amalthea.sun.csd.unb.ca (Morrison) writes:
>May the Great Bird of the Galaxy punish your sacreligious blatther by
>sending a thousand Ferengi encyclopedia salesmen to your door.
Can't resist pointing out, completely irrelevantly, that an article in
the VILLAGE VOICE months back pointed out that the Ferengi are a sort of
Trek universe substitute for the Jew in his less palatable stereotype.
I'd add to this that while the Ferengi represent the demonic Jew
stereotype, the Bajorans represent the heroic Israeli stereotype. One
could also argue that the Bajorans represent heroic Palestinians, making
the Caradassians demonic Israelis rather than Nazis....
Article 18562 of alt.revisionism:
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From: quirke_a@ix.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman Away until Nov. 7
Date: 5 Nov 1994 03:59:35 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council, Public Access
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hoffman2nd@delphi.com writes:
>I will be combining a research trip with the celebration of one of the
>high holidays of the traditional Christian Anglo-Saxon calendar: Guy
>Fawkes Day. I will be back on the Internet Nov. 7. --Michael A.
>Hoffman II.
For the American readers, this is the Commonwealth's celebration of
a conspiracy that attempted to blow up the English Parliament. It
failed, but ever since, patriotic New Zealanders, Canadians, and
Brits have celebrated by exploding fireworks and getting drunk.
Oh, and peering towards their respective Heads of State with long
calculating glances...
- Tony Q.
---
Tony Quirke, Wellington, New Zealand (email for phone no)
"...For Mercy has a human heart, | "Cruelty has a Human Heart,
Pity a human face, | And Jealousy a Human Face,
And Love, the human form divine, | Terror the Human Form Divine,
And Peace, the human dress." - SoI| And Secrecy the Human Dress." -SoE.
Article 18565 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: 5 Nov 1994 18:12:30 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) wrote:
# Is this an admission that the modern day "Jews" of Judaism have no
# physical link to Biblical Israelites, as the 1980 Jewish Almanac
# confirms?
Frankly, I don't know and I don't care. Again, Judaism is a religion.
One can convert to Judaism and he's a Jew just like any other Jew.
Genetics has nothing to do with it. His children will also be Jews
just like any other Jew.
BTW, re your previous question: you may not quote me on anything.
I don't trust Nazis to quote me, or anyone else, accurately.
# Were the Palestines every paid reprarations for
# their lost lands, businesses and homes much like the "Jews"
# collect from Germany today?
I am not saying Israel is free of guilt, but the plight of the
Palestinians would have been prevented if the Arab nations
surrounding Israel in 1948 had not launched a war against it with
the declared intent of annihilating the country.
Also, what about 800,000 Jews who fled or were kicked out from
Arab lands? They also left everything they had behind. They got
no reparations either. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right
but just pointing this out.
# Absolutely. The Indians claimed less than 3% of the land legally.
# The white europeans played by the Indians own rules. The indians were
# killing each other off for decades before the whites came. The whites
# just played their own game, but were more effective at it.
Is that so? Whites were killing each other also. Study the history
of religious persecution in Europe. How many Christians were
killed by other Christians? What about the crusades? And, anyway,
what right did this give to anyone to slaughter the Indians?
# The holocaust legend is at the heart of the politics of the illegal
# bandit state of Israeli in Palestine. It is supported by Zionist
# Christians because of this guilt inspiring propaganda hoax.
Following are a few testimonies of people who, unlike you, were
in the Nazi death camps during WW2. Do you have any evidence
their stories are not true? If so, let's see it. If not, shut
your trap. Fair deal?
Testimony of Doctor Charles Bendel (p. 132-133, "The Belsen Trial")
----------------------------------------------------------------
Now it is proper hell which is starting. The sonderkommando tries to
work as fast as possible. They drag the corpses by their wrists in
furious haste. People who had human faces before, I cannot recognize
again. They are like devils. A barrister from Salonica, an electrical
engineer from Budapest - they are no longer human beings because,
even during the work, blows from sticks and rubber trunceons are being
showered over them. During the time this is going on they continue to
shoot people in front of these ditches, people who could not be got
into the gas chambers because they were over-crowded. After an hour
and a half the whole work has been done and a new transport has been
dealt with in Crematorium No. 4.
Testimony of Hans-Heintz Schutt, SS-officer at Sobibor
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 240]
-------------------------------------------------------------
Getting the detainees into the gas chambers did not always proceed
smoothly. The detainees would shout and weep and they often refused to
get inside. The guards helped them on by violence. These guards were
Ukrainian volunteers who were under the authority of members of
the SS Kommando. Members of the SS held key positions in the camp, i.e.
one SS man oversaw the unloading, a further SS man led the detainees
into the reception camp, a further SS man was repsonsible for leading
the detainees to the undressing area, a further SS man oversaw the
confiscation of valuables and a further member of the Kommando had
to drive the detainees into the so-called tube which led to the
extermination camp. Once they were inside the so-called tube, which
led them from the hut to the extermination camp, there was no longer
any escape.
From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.
From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr:
[Quoted in "Truth Prevails", ISBN 1-879437-00-7, p. 99].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Is it correct that you have gassed 200 Russian POW's with Zyklon-B?
A: Yes, on orders.
Q: Where did you do that?
A: In Neuengamme [concentration camp].
Q: On whose order?
A: The local doctor, Dr. Von Bergmann.
Q: With what gas?
A: With Prussic acid [another name for Zyklon-B].
Q: How long did the Russians take to die?
A: I do not know. I only obeyed orders.
Q: How long did it take to gas the Russians?
A: I returned after two hours and they were all dead.
Q: For what purpose did you go away?
A: That was during lunch hour.
Q: You left for your lunch and came back afterwards?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they dead when you came back?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you look at their bodies?
A: Yes, because I had to load them.
Q: Why did you apply the gas to the Russians?
A: I only had orders to pour in the gas and I do not know anything
about it.
SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz:
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.
Testimony of SS private Boeck:
[Extracted from "Der Auschwitz Prozess", by Hermann Langbein,
Vol. I, quoted in "Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas
chambers - J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989,
p. 181].
------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?
A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A
transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to
jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were
women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The
trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and
the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the
place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse
(Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the
people were standing on clothes which were building up on
the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane,
were there. Hoeblinger said to me 'lets go over there now'. There
was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see, they are bringing
children now'. They opened the door, threw the children in
and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the
SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about
ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything
was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies
were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next
batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn't
look at my wife for four weeks.
Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany
[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military
Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I,
p. 876-886].
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent
by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what
methods were the mercy deaths given?
A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written
formalities were concluded - I need not repeat these formalities
here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files,
etc. The the patients were led to a gas chamber and were there
killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO).
Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?
A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen
container, such as is used for welding - a hollow steel
container.
Q: And these people were placed in this chamber in groups, I
suppose, and then the carbon monoxide was turned into the
chambers?
A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler's
basic requirement was that the killing should not only be
painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the
photographing of the patients, which was only done for
scientific reasons, took place before they entered the
chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby.
Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were
told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps
20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.
.
.
.
Q. What was done with the bodies of these people after mercy deaths
were given?
A. When the room had been cleared of gas again, stretchers were
brought in and the bodies were carried into an adjoining
room. There the doctor examined them to determine whether they
were dead.
Q. Then what happened to the bodies?
A. After the doctor had determined death, he freed the bodies for
cremation and they were cremated.
Q. After he had freed the bodies, had determined that they were
dead, they were then cremated? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. There was a crematory built for every one of these institutions?
A. Yes. Crematoriums were built in the institutions.
.
.
.
Q. And these people thought that they were going in to take a shower
bath?
A. If any of them had any power of reasoning, they had no doubt
thought that.
Q. Well now, were they taken into the shower rooms with their
clothes on or were they nude?
A. No. They were nude.
Q. In every case?
A. Whenever I saw them, yes.
Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in
Krema I in Auschwitz
[Quoted in "KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS", p. 176]
-------------------------------------------------------------
... The "disinfectors" were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer
Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a
hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the
inscription "Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison!
to be opened by trained personnel only!". The tins were filled to
the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which
were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver
of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver
started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the
death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death.
-Danny Keren.
Article 18581 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
Message-ID:
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:28:04 GMT
Lines: 38
Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: wrote:
: # I do not believe that many of the
: # people who call themselves >>Jews<< today have any blood ties to
: # the people of Abraham and Isaac.
: Mr. Hoffman truly reveals his own racism by writing this. Being a
: Jew has nothing to do with any "blood ties" but with one's
: decision to accept Judaism. Genetics has nothing to do with it.
This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of
today are "God's Chosen People." Thanks for the admission. It also
disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim
they used to justify their "right" to it.
: I know someone who was a Catholic (from France), and decided to
: convert to Judaism. He is considered a Jew just like any other Jew.
: He actually married an orthodox Jewish woman.
Then can the "Jews" of Judaism then finnally denounce their claim to
be "God's Chosen People," the "People of the Old Testament," the "People
of the Book (Bible)" once and for all and be done with it? If you will
do this I will be happy and will be glad to quote you to every Christian
I come along who holds this heretical belief.
: Various Nazis often wrongly project their own belief in "the blood"
: onto others.
The "Jews" of Judaism merely project their tribal identity unto the
Jews of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. This is a claim and
belief in "the blood". If you want to claim otherwise, then please do
so and can I quote you?
--
_____________________Rick Savage ______________________
| Important files on life, liberty and happiness: Rick Savage |
| Anonymous FTP server: ftp.netcom.com - "cd pub/SFA" PO Box 5251 |
| Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues Denver, CO 80217 |
Article 18588 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Message-ID:
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <394i26$l8r@access4.digex.net> <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 03:26:19 GMT
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In article , hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
//Stein writes:
//From Israeli journalist Israel Shahak:J>>It should be explained here that terms
//like >other< or >human being< refer in Halacha to Jewish others and Jewish human
//beings alone. When used in Hebrew by rabbis they must have that meaning. The
//same holds true for Yiddish. Although the word >Mensch< is supposed to mean a
//man, it is actually used only in reference to a Jewish man.<<
//
// --Michael A. Hoffman II
According to Shahak--I just read his book--even the old Biblical
saw, "Love your neighbor/fellow as you love yourself," refers not
to human beings in general but only to Jews in particular. Talk
about unbridled ethnocentrism.
Can anyone here rebut Shahak? I'm not an expert on the subjects
he is taking on in _Jewish History, Jewish Religion_, but he sure
seems to know what he is talking about. And the ideological
temperament he is describing appears to be alive and well in
Brooklyn's _Jewish Press_, one of the most influential Jewish
newspapers in the world (and one in which Yitzhak Shamir
currently contributes a weekly column).
Love your fellow Englishman as you love yourself. Love your
fellow Frenchman as you love yourself. There is a certain lack of
nobility and universalism in those formulations.
If we're going to play the tribal game, then I guess any tribe
can play, and no other tribe can complain.
Article 18589 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Hoffman
Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 12:49:12 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
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<5W7Vjiu.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
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Okay, let's recap.
Hoffman accused McVay of being, quote, a "police agent."
McVay responded by asking what evidence Hoffman could possibly have
for this.
No answer.
McVay repeated the question, asking "On October 26, 1994, I responded
to this baseless charge by asking you what evidence you had for making
such an allegation, and, further, what you were trying to imply."
Now, Hoffman replies with a collage of questions about McVay's opinions
on free speech (opinions, by the way, which McVay has made absolutely
plain many times in the past). What any of this has to do with his
"police agent" accusation is anyone's guess:
> No, Mr. McVay you have not responded to the charge. You have not answered
> my detailed questions on your position on your government and your human
> rights (so-called) groups and your Canadian Zionist establishment's policy
> of prosecuting and seeking to imprison Zundel and Keegstra and to jail,
> deport and ban writer David Irving. Will you kindly go on record herein
> condemning the horrid Canadian-Zionist policy of prosecuting publishers,
> teachers and writers? Will you write to the relevant Canadian authorities
> like S. Littman, S. Citron and the government of Canada, protesting this
> inquisition? What is the position of the Pharisee-worshipping church that
> pays you on this issue?
>
> Kindly >>put up or shut up.<<
Hoffman, what the hell does that have to do with McVay being a, quote,
"police agent"?
What evidence do you have for such an allegation? Will you just please
answer that question?
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
"I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
I realize that is not risk-free" - Daniel Rice
Article 18592 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 6 Nov 1994 07:43:14 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Wayne, I'm willing to try and discuss Shahak's claim (which you
posted, re the interpretation of "love your neighbour"). I'm not
a scholar of Judaism, and neither is Shahak - he's a chemist.
However, once again, I am amazed at your determination of flooding
this newsgroup with inappropriate articles. You must agree with
me that this belongs in soc.culture.jewish, right?
Why do you insist to flood alt.revisionism with discussions which
do not belong here? You're not only abusing the newsgroup, you're
also missing a large audience which may very well be interested
in such a topic. Your behavior is really strange.
You've started a discussion on something which IS relevant here;
that is, when did the Nazis decide to exterminate the Jews. Do you
want to continue with it?
-Danny Keren.
Article 18595 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:28:04 GMT
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
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Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 23:21:34 GMT
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
> This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of
>today are "God's Chosen People." Thanks for the admission.
Huh? How do you figure? You mean if you're the great-great-great...
grandchild of a convert to Christianity then you can't be "saved" and
thus enter the Kingdom of Christ? By this same reasoning?
I think you're about the only one here who seems to believe that
"god's chosen people" is exclusively an inherited quality.
Go read the Ten Commandments in the bible, as a good start.
Where exactly does it say "Thou shalt not be the son or daughter of a
non-Jew"?
Nowhere.
It says do this, do that, do this, etc, all voluntary acts on the part
of the individual, and you shall be one of God's chosen people, ie, a
Jew. Ok, there are some other things not covered by the Ten
Commandments, Leviticus and all that, but show me where this is
limited to a genetic or racial group.
IT'S A RELIGION. IT BELIEVES THAT IF YOU ACCEPT THE RELIGION YOU HAVE
A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. YOU ARE OF THE CHOSEN. YOW, HOW
UNUSUAL!
You are one utterly confused person.
>It also
>disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim
>they used to justify their "right" to it.
As it would also disclaim any rights claimed by the Catholics to the
Vatican, or Islam to Mecca and Medina etc??? Or dozens of other
nations organized specifically around a religion? The US is actually
the odd one out on this point you know.
I'm not particularly saying it's right or justified, I'm just saying
it's about as common as dirt and your delusion that this is unique to
Judaism is just that; a delusion.
> Then can the "Jews" of Judaism then finnally denounce their claim to
>be "God's Chosen People," the "People of the Old Testament," the "People
>of the Book (Bible)" once and for all and be done with it?
No, because this is what they believe.
It's not a genetic, inherited quality you dunderhead.
Yes indeed the child of Jewish parents (yes I know the rules) is
Jewish.
And the child of Catholics is generally considered Catholic, and those
of Protestants Protestant, Islamic Islam, etc.
Nothing awfully odd about that.
You're confused, you have built an entire hateful belief system on
mere confusion about some stupid point you've imagined being true!
YOU CAN CONVERT TO JUDAISM.
And if you do, YOU ARE A JEW. YOU BECOME ONE OF GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE,
according to their theology. Feel free. Wanna become one of God's
Chosen People and recognized as such by every Jew on earth? Call your
local rabbi and CONVERT! Ok, it's not as easy as converting to
Christianity in some mechanical sense, the steps involved, but so
what, surely that's not your complaint.
It's analogous to Christians' tenet that ``Only through belief in
Christ can you enter the Kingdom of Heaven''.
And similar for most any other major, organized Western religion.
BFD, welcome to planet earth.
>If you will
>do this I will be happy and will be glad to quote you to every Christian
>I come along who holds this heretical belief.
Nobody cares about this, as we've pointed out you're just mistaken in
your belief system. There's no need for any concession of any sort by
anyone. You may choose to remain confused, or you may come join the
living. But that's your choice to make.
> The "Jews" of Judaism merely project their tribal identity unto the
>Jews of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.
Right, unlike when a Christian speaks of persecution of "their people"
at the hands of the Romans (eg, "Spartacus", lions and christians and
slaves and all that.) Or Protestants review of the Reformation, speak
about members of their branch "fleeing" to America to escape religious
persecution, Pilgrims, Thanksgiving, Hoffman reveling here just
yesterday about his personal celebration of Guy Fawkes day, blah blah
blah.
Right, this is unique to the Jews. Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?
You're a confused person. That's all you've shown here. You have this
deep belief system based on sheer erroneous assumptions, it's not an
opinion, it's just a dumb mistake on your part.
--
-Barry Shein
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Article 18596 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Fri, 4 Nov 1994 17:45:38 GMT
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 00:01:02 GMT
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
>: a) Does anyone doubt the link between Israel and the
>: Jewish *religion*?
>
> Not anymore than one would doubt the link between the Moonies
>and the teaching of Jesus Christ.
And you believe it is your role to sit in judgement of whether or not
Moonies are Christians?
And how, exactly, did you attain this high and exalted position?
And, by your theology, who *do* you admit as being Christian enough
for your tastes?
> The point being Judaism is merely a religion that claims descent
>from Biblical Israel but is the complete opposite of these beliefs in
>actual practice.
Complete opposite? What a stupid thing to say. Would you care to
elaborate on this rather strange point of view. Do you mean they grow
long foreskins, sit all day boiling pork in milk for dinner and
worship multiple Gods? What could you possibly, possibly mean?
> Is this an admission that the modern day "Jews" of Judaism have no
>physical link to Biblical Israelites, as the 1980 Jewish Almanac
>confirms?
What is a "physical link"?
What exactly is your own physical link to your religion that makes you
so smug?
What in the hell are you talking about?
>Can I use you as a reference in correcting the many Christians who
>believe these lies then?
No, you can de-confuse yourself, because you are confused.
> Yes, many "Christian" Zionists belief this fiction beyond the
>"spiritual" point of view. You would do them a service by correcting
>this misconception.
Consider them corrected. Next question?
>: That's independent of whether or not you are comfortable with that
>: spiritual point of view. I'm not, particularly.
>
> Why not?
Because I don't practice Judaism so don't particularly accept their
beliefs. I also don't practice Christianity so don't accept their
beliefs as holding special authority. Nor Islam, nor buddhism, etc.
But *THEY* believe that.
Just as Christians believe that Christ was God's Son sent to earth to
deliver mankind.
It's a religious belief.
But unless you're willing to abandon your own religious beliefs, for
example, I think we're just going to have to accept that people hold
such beliefs, and not all the same.
Catholics believe that it was ordained that Peter founded the
seat of the Christian Church in Rome, that this was God's Will.
And thus the Vatican is theirs.
Muslims believe that Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem (in particular the
Dome of the Rock and Al'Aqsa) are their holy places. Unfortunately
Jerusalem is claimed by at least three different religions as having
special significance to them. And no matter who "gets it" the other
two are likely to be very, very unhappy tho apparently the Jews and
the Christians have come to a fairly comfortable understanding. The
Muslims remain quite unhappy. It's a difficult problem. It's caused
much contention, warfare and killing these past 1300 years or
thereabouts, or haven't you noticed?
> Why do you suppose the British yielded palestine to the the
>immigrating "Jews" of Judaism?
Cost/benefit analysis. They could no longer control it, they
yielded. That's why I used the word "yielded".
Need I point out that this was not the only instance of this? Do words
like India, Iraq, Rhodesia mean anything to you?
>Was the British decision just and legal
>per International Law?
Sure, of course it was. It was theirs to do as they liked as far as
int'l law was concerned.
Certainly just as much as any basis upon which the British had
acquired Palestine in the first place (as a result of WWI if I
remember correctly, so about 30 years previous?)
British Palestine was split into two pieces. One part became Israel,
the other Jordan. Israel was handed over to the Jews, Jordan to the
Hashemites (King Hussein's father, and his people, Muslims by
religion.)
>Were the Palestines every paid reprarations for
>their lost lands, businesses and homes much like the "Jews" collect from
>Germany today?
Did the British pay them? Did the Turks before them?
Actually, apparently this is being settled. A Palestinian homeland is
being constructed right now, right? Next question.
And do you actually, honestly give a damn about Palestinians? Or is it
just an excuse to bash Jews?
For example, what have you done lately about repaying Native Americans
for the land *you* live on?
Or do you only cast stones?
> Absolutely. The Indians claimed less than 3% of the land legally.
>The white europeans played by the Indians own rules. The indians were
>killing each other off for decades before the whites came. The whites
>just played their own game, but were more effective at it.
Right you dumb fucking piece of shit. WHEN IT COMES TO YOU AND YOURS
MIGHT MAKES FUCKING RIGHT!
But when you decide to judge Jews all of a sudden this bullshit about
international law and reparations comes drooling out of your twisted
little brain.
WHO IN THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING YOU DUMB HYPOCRITE? JUST
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING?
Boy do you exhibit that typical, loathsome double-standard of bigots
like yourself.
*THEY* have to play nice and follow our idealized concept of "THE
RULES".
*WE* however will nuke their sorry asses to kingdom come if someone so
much as LOOKS at us wrong.
MIGHT MAKES RIGHT! (but only for "us".)
>for the complete legal arguement over the land issue in America.
Legal argument? YOU KILLED THEM. You killed them with the same
rapaciousness you killed the Buffalo. You wiped them out until they
were no longer any challenge to land claims, stuck them on
reservations, starved them, put them on death marches, etc.
And you now have a *LEGAL* argument?
Pardon me while I barf.
Who exactly invited your "white people" to come to North America and
sort out which portion the Native Americans weren't using?
> The holocaust legend is at the heart of the politics of the illegal
>bandit state of Israeli in Palestine.
No. It is at the heart of two bit evil f*cking hate-mongers like
yourself who should be damned to hell, to a one.
You have no issue.
You are an evil, low-life, hypocritical, lying hate-mongerer.
I view you and your views with the same loathing I would someone who
sexually molests small children, or professes that it would be a good
idea anyhow (to distinguish mere sick and twisted belief from actual
action.)
You are in the same category as far as I am concerned, and deserve
exactly as much respect. That is, none. You are a loathsome,
hate-ridden insect. Period.
Now why don't you please just go to hell quietly. You profess a
religion of hate and evil and you represent no one. You are not a
Christian, you are just a twisted and evil individual.
>It is supported by Zionist
>Christians because of this guilt inspiring propaganda hoax.
Yeah, right, everybody is crazy but you Ricky-boy. Right.
You are one twisted, sick little beast.
Has it ever occurred to you that it may have some relationship to the
significance of Israel to Christians? Have you noticed the Crusades of
the past almost 1300 years, waged by Christians to control the Holy
Lands and keep it out of the hands of the "heretics"?
Don't you get it? Does any light penetrate that disease-ridden skull
of yours? It's only been 1300 years of continuous warfare over the
Holy Land, only 1300 years, YOU MIGHT HAVE TAKEN A HINT BY NOW!
Christians are comfortable with Jews as the caretakers of their Holy
Land. Particularly if the other choice is Muslims.
Now here's a nickel, go buy yourself a clue.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18605 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
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References: <3991hb$hmq@access4.digex.net> <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 13:42:10 GMT
Lines: 45
In article <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
//Why do you insist to flood alt.revisionism with discussions which
//do not belong here? You're not only abusing the newsgroup, you're
//also missing a large audience which may very well be interested
//in such a topic. Your behavior is really strange.
No, your mental horizons are pitifully narrow--few people in this
newsgroup have apparently bothered to acquire a broad liberal
education, one which will provide you with a sense of the true
complexity and richness of history. That is why Ken McVay and
most of the others here could not sit around a table with Paul
Johnson, Richard Pipes, or Arno Mayer and say anything of much
interest about the Holocaust or any other topic.
Holocaust revisionism in the broadest and most legitimate sense
encompasses a wide range of issues. Why did the Holocaust happen?
What was the historical context? What are the deepest roots of
anti-Semitism? Has the Holocaust been wildly and ridiculously
exaggerated compared to other political crimes in this century?
(It most assuredly has: the murder of 100 million innocent
civilians by Marxists has received virtually no attention at all
in Western popular culture.)
Shahak's book is highly relevant to the question of how we assign
relative blame to Jews and non-Jews in what appears at this point
in history to be a never-ending and eternal state of apocalyptic
conflict between Jews and non-Jews all over the world and all
throughout history. (Fifty years ago it was the Nazis; now it is
the Arabs and Muslims; is there any light at the end of this
tunnel? I am beginning to think not. And the state of perpetual
crisis is beginning to grow tiresome for many non-Jews and Jews
alike.)
I once thought that Jews throughout history subscribed to a
tolerant and humanistic religion that was persecuted by a bigoted
Christian tradition. It has come as quite a surprise to learn
from Shahak and others just how deep the bigotry and intolerance
have also run on the Jewish side of the fence. The responsibility
for this dangerous conflict and friction needs to be assigned to
both sides, in proportions that are open to debate.
What was the cultural context of the Holocaust in the largest
sense? That is a legitimate topic in the world of legitimate
revisionism.
Article 18612 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 09:37:23
Organization: DAN
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In article <2NOV199409360657@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
>From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
>Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
>Date: 2 Nov 1994 09:36 MST
>In article , dannya@xs4all.nl (Danny A. Nijburg) writes...
>>In article <31OCT199423103282@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
>>> I submit that while there are many many anti-Nazi movies (and it just
>>> so happens that the Nazis were a small subset of Germans) there are
>>> very few genericly anti-German movies.
>>On what basis do you define the Nazis as a >SMALL< subset of Germans?
>>In the last legal elections they got the largest number of votes of all
>>parties.
> The last legal elections were held in November 1932. The Nazis got
> 33.1 percent of the vote. This was their peak in free and open
> elections.
They were the largest single block.
It was not their peak, because in July 32 they got 37 percent, as did Hitler
personally in the elections for president the same year.
> After a decade of economic depression, and after several years of
> infighting and assassinations which weakened the other far-right
> parties in Germany, the Nazis peaked at about one third of the popular
> electoral vote. I still submit that their following was a small subset
> of Germans.
> Remember, times were very bad in Germany in 32. Hitler ran a populist
> campaign blaming the problems on Jews and outsiders. People were fed
> up with the current government, saw them as ineffective (which may well
> have been true) and were open to change. Other far-right parties were
> in shambles beccause of infighting. Hitler may have looked like a
> viable option to many among the lower educated working classes. But
> getting 1/3 of the votes do not make 1/3 of Gemany Nazis.
Why not ? If 30% of Americans vote Republican, can you not say that 30% of
Americans are Republicans ?
> And, correct me if I am wrong - I don't have reference materials in
> front of me, wasn't the November 32 campaign a rather dirty campaign
> with lot of lies (more than the usual) being spread? Did people really
> understand what they were voting for in 32?
At least as much as the electorate in any other country at any other time.
Furthermore, after the Nazi takeover, i.e. Hitler being elected Reichskanzler
with the support of Catholics like von Papen and Conservative nationalists,
popular support quickly grew even further.
/\\\\
Danny A. Nijburg (@|@)
--------------------------------------ooO-(v)-Ooo-----
Victorieplein 47-2 ~%~
1078 PD Amsterdam- The Netherlands
Phone/Fax +31 20 671 7711 Do unto others.....
Article 18614 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Date: 6 Nov 1994 11:10:47 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Rick Savage wrote:
>Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
>: Mr. Hoffman truly reveals his own racism by writing this. Being a
>: Jew has nothing to do with any "blood ties" but with one's
>: decision to accept Judaism. Genetics has nothing to do with it.
>
> This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of
>today are "God's Chosen People." Thanks for the admission. It also
>disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim
>they used to justify their "right" to it.
Of course, Rick Savage argues out of both sides of his mouth. On
the one hand, he says that the lack of blood descent invalidates any
theological claim by a modern Jew to be one of the "chosen people" - that
one cannot *join* the chosen people by simple conversion. However, when
it comes to Identity Christianity, all of a sudden it seems to become
something you *can* choose, and is not restricted to descendants of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Not that I ever thought Rick was capable of consistent logical
thought, mind you....
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 18618 of alt.revisionism:
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From: karlpov@access3.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Date: 5 Nov 1994 11:43:43 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) writes:
> First of all there are two sources for the Khazar connection at:
> ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/Bible Facts_are_Facts (by B. Freedman)
> ftp.netcom.com /pub/SFA/history 13th_Tribe_Review (Koestler)
> Here is a newspaper article as well:
None of your sources gives any real evidence for your thesis that
present-day Jews are of dominantly Khazar ancestry. I don't know why I
would care. I have no doubt that despite the prophet Ezra's excoriations
against the shiksas of his time, today's Jews are descended from many far
outside the line of Abraham bar Terach. What proportion (if any) of their
ancestry might be Khazar is anybody's guess. Using a surname to determine
a person's "pure" ancestry, as did your latest source, is rather obviously
cretinous, but I suppose that's what to expect of anyone who swallows the
fantasies of Christian Identity.
I don't think it's entirely wrong to resent the founding of modern Israel
as constituting a European solution, using non-European territory, to
solve a European problem (antisemitism, that is, not Jews). However,
Israel has also taken in the Jewish populations of the countries of the
Middle East and North Africa, which in my mind more than justifies its
existence.
Anyone interested in the origin of Rick's idiocies should check out the
recent book RELIGION AND THE RACIST RIGHT: THE ORIGINS OF THE CHRISTIAN
IDENTITY MOVEMENT, by Michael Barkun (Chapel Hill/London: University of
North Carolina Press, 1994)A. It all started with those relatively
harmless Limey eccentrics who thought Brits were a Lost Tribe of Israel.
Article 18634 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Message-ID:
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Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
<3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
<397scu$mmn@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 04:39:22 GMT
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In article ,
bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) wrote:
//Ok, you're on: Two recent movies portraying obviously Jewish stars as
//scum:
//2. Warren Beatty's recent portrayal of Bugsy Siegel, the ruthless
//Mafia gangster.
Well, I think we have established with certainty that Barry
Shein's critical abilities in judging movies leave a good deal to
be desired.
_Bugsy_ is hardly Barry Levinson's best film (_Diner_ is my
favorite), but there can be little doubt that Levinson here was
trying to do for the Jews what Francis Ford Coppola did for the
Italians: present their criminals as romantic and swashbuckling
American entrepreneurs and self-starters taking a walk on the
wild side. In no respect whatever was _Bugsy_ an anti-Jewish
film. Sidney Zion's new book on this subject is in the same
genre.
Can you imagine, though, being proud of having created a shithole
like Las Vegas?
One could do a systematic content analysis of major motion
pictures during the last few years, comparing the frequency of
anti-Arab, pro-Arab, anti-Jewish, pro-Jewish, anti-Christian,
pro-Christian, anti-Muslim, pro-Muslim, anti-Nazi, pro-Nazi,
anti-Communist, and pro-Communist stereotypes.
I can't recall many movies in which Jews were portrayed as
viciously as Arabs and Muslims were in, say, _True Lies_. Perhaps
you can. I can think of many movies in which Christians have been
ridiculed. I can't think of any movies in which religious Jews
have been similarly treated.
Do you think we will see a docudrama on ABC, CBS, or NBC about
the madness of Menachem Schneerson and his followers, who
proclaimed him the Messiah? Bet not. The howls, the howls!
Article 18644 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Message-ID:
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
References: <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:11:27 GMT
Lines: 21
In article <1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>,
stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz) wrote:
//BTW, Wayne, did you notice that on the one hand you demand answers
//form Ken McVay within hours, while, on the other hand, you yourself
//are absent for weeks and, even if you reappear, do not address much of
//the responses to your postings?
Guy, do you realize how many posts I receive here? If I answered
all of them, it would be a full-time job and everyone here would
be annoyed and charging me with trying to dominate the newsgroup.
I answer whatever posts I can get to. I NEVER evade answering any
specific posts, because I never, ever commit anything to print
that I am not willing to back up in detail.
You asked for information on the 100 million victims of Marxism.
I've posted the information three or four times now. Look it up
in the archives or look it up yourself. I've fulfilled my
responsibilities many times over in providing documentation to
support my various assertions.
Article 18645 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Message-ID: <9RZlk0yNUsKA073yn@world.std.com>
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:16:41 GMT
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In article <5NOV199408031487@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
// They may or may not have a "right" to Palestine/Israel. But don't they
// claim that right based *in part* on the religious link to the land?
It's amazing to discover that many Jews are as ignorant of their
own historical and cultural tradition as Christians and Muslims
are of theirs.
Most of the founders of Israel were Marxists and atheists, not
religionists of any kind. In fact most of them despised religion.
Many of them were also Jewish racialists or Jewish racists:
Vladimir Jabotinsky is an excellent example.
There is a deep strain of biological determinism within important
schools of Judaism itself. Menachem Schneerson, for instance, was
a product of that school, and his ideology could rightly be
described as fusing religion with racism.
I am seeing as many lies and distortions and tawdry propaganda on
this issue as I saw about Mideast politics in
talk.politics.mideast. All of this deception does little to
enhance the credibility of these people when they try to talk
about the Holocaust.
Article 18652 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Message-ID:
Sender: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
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References: <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <39lh1q$gaj@louie.udel.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 15:47:09 GMT
Lines: 116
In article <39lh1q$gaj@louie.udel.edu>,
carroll@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu (Mark C. Chu-Carroll) wrote:
//Only in your sick little mind, Rick... Y'see, you've got this
//obsession with racism... and you demand that the Chosen People be a
//*racial* group. But that's not what Judaism claims - nor has it ever
//been what we've claimed. Judaism has always been a *religion*, which
//outsiders could join.
If anyone wants to complain about the relevancy of this thread,
then direct your complaints to the people who started it, not me.
In fact, very few outsiders ever join or are encouraged to join.
Judaism is much more ethnocentric than Christianity, Islam, or
Buddhism, although it would be unfair to characterize Judaism as
a whole as racialist or racist.
Christians and Buddhists do not, for instance, define themselves
in nationalistic, ethnocentric, or tribalistic terms.
Christianity does not manifest itself through a particular
physical nation (like Israel) or through a particular ethnic
group (like the Jews, who are as much an ethnic as a religious
group). Christians do not comprise an ethnic group, nor do
Muslims or Buddhists.
Perhaps you could provide some insightful commentary on the
passage below, which discusses the racist elements in Lubavitch
ideology. The Lubavitchers are one of the most influential
religious Jewish sects of the 20th century. Your remarks above
are a tremendous over-simplification and distortion of what is
going on these days in the whole and complex world of Judaism.
----------------------------------------------------------------
.book review
author=Allan Nadler
title=Despite All Odds: The Story of Lubavitch
magazine=The New Republic
date=May 4, 1992
volume=206
number=18
pages=27(8)
excerpt=
There is a sense in which these efforts at undermining the
secular character of American public life are perfectly
consistent with classical Habad theology. Hasidism's insistence
on the immanence of God in creation, and especially its mystical
refusal to acknowledge the reality of a purely physical realm of
existence bereft of holiness, abhors a saeculum. The idea of a
polity deliberately conceived as secular, that is, the idea of a
polity such as America's, is anathema to the mystic whose
theology does not allow for the reality of a profane realm of
existence. And yet there are some powerful ironies in Habad's new
messianic universalism, in its mission to the gentiles; and
surely the most unpleasant of them concerns Habad's otherwise
undisguised and even racial contempt for the "goyim."
In the normative rabbinic and Jewish philosophical traditions,
Israel's choseness was most commonly seen to derive from God's
revelation of the Torah at Mount Sinai. It was the uniqueness of
their religion, not of their race, that distinguished Jews from
others. Only a very small number of idiosyncratic medieval Jewish
theologians--most notably the poet and philosopher Judah Ha-Levi
in twelfth-century Spain and the mystic Judah Loewe in
sixteenth-century Prague--sought to define the Jewish distinction
racially rather than spiritually.
Yet it was precisely this minority view, according to which there
is something innately superior about the Jews, that was
rehabilitated in its most extreme form by Shneur Zalman of Lyady.
The founder of Lubavitcher Hasidism taught that there is a
difference of essence between the souls of Jews and the souls of
gentiles, that only in the Jewish soul does there reside a spark
of divine vitality. As for the goyim, here is Foxbrunner's
characterization of Shneur Zalman's attitude:
Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order.
They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Consequently, references to gentiles in Rabbi Shneur Zalman's
teachings are invariably invidious. . . . Their material
abundance derives from supernal refuse. Indeed, they themselves
derive from refuse, which is why they are more numerous than the
Jews, as the pieces of chaff outnumber the kernels. . . . All
Jews were innately good, all gentiles innately evil. Jews were
the pinnacle of creation and served the Creator, gentiles its
nadir and worshiped the heavenly hosts.
Shneur Zalman's racism far exceeded the much more limited
religious elitism of the few earlier rabbis who subscribed to a
racial theory of Jewish choseness. It is virtually without
precedent and without parallel in the history of Jewish thought.
Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently
evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to
Jews, has not in any way been revised in later Habad writing. The
obvious incompatibility of this racist view of the gentiles with
Habad's current missionizing to them is something that the
Lubavitchers have not even begun to acknowledge or to address.
These are matters that their partisan historians deliberately
obscure, as they cling to the myth that Habad Hasidism is
essentially ahistorical and impervious to change....
Now, here is the $64,000 question: why didn't the American mass
media as a whole expose the virulent racism within this movement?
In fact, the U.S. Congress just approved that a medal of honor of
some kind be awarded to Menachem Schneerson.
What, really, is the difference between the Christian Identity
movement and the Lubavitchers? Both are movements which fuse
religion with racism.
Article 18661 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Hoffman succeeds in one goal, then...
Date: 6 Nov 1994 11:22:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <39ivrl$5ll@access1.digex.net>
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> <1994Nov04.000714.9552@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
In article <1994Nov04.000714.9552@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
Ken Mcvay wrote:
>In article <3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>,
>erd@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (Eric Doenges) writes: >
>>Let's look at this list to highlight some error:
>
>[Devastating exposure of Hoffman's intellectual failures deleted]
>
>You overlooked one important reality: Hoffie isn't _interested_ in
>facts - he's selling his book, and his "research" rag, and trying to
>make money by spreading racial hatred and maximizing Jewish pain.
In that last goal he is succeeding. My sides ache from laughing at
his pathetic attempts to extricate himself from his proven lie about
why he said my Hebrew was not too great. And I fear the fun is only just
beginning - time to post my response, I think.... >:-)>
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 18666 of alt.revisionism:
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From: flax@aristotle.algonet.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 07 Nov 1994 19:15:26 GMT
Organization: AlgoNet Public Access Node, Stockholm
Lines: 18
Message-ID:
References: <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
<1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
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In-reply-to: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:11:27 GMT
In article wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
I answer whatever posts I can get to. I NEVER evade answering any
specific posts, because I never, ever commit anything to print
that I am not willing to back up in detail.
O thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou wayne!
Now, can you _please_ back your post, where you called me a Marxist
Zionist? (Remember, you stated you knew me well from my _numerous_
posts on t.p.m?)
Still waiting..
--
Safe PGP key fingerprint = A7 FA 4D 35 73 0E DB 65 69 D5 D4 E1 02 E6 91 E2
Unix PGP key fingerprint = 0D 22 64 4D 05 35 53 BA 83 56 7B 56 C6 61 D4 A7
DNA sequence fingerprint = 0E 21 45 FA 7A 11 34 FE ED DE AD BE EF 8F 10 71
DNA copyright 1962 - 1994 by Jonas Flygare, Copyright yours before IBM does.
Article 18668 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Message-ID: <1994Nov6.230955.5841@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Sender: news@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de (Unix-News-System)
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Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, Germany
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Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 23:09:55 GMT
Lines: 71
In article , wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
|> In article <39i1ei$cpn@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:
[...McGuire-speak deleted...]
|> Holocaust revisionism in the broadest and most legitimate sense
|> encompasses a wide range of issues. Why did the Holocaust happen?
|> What was the historical context? What are the deepest roots of
|> anti-Semitism? Has the Holocaust been wildly and ridiculously
|> exaggerated compared to other political crimes in this century?
|> (It most assuredly has: the murder of 100 million innocent
|> civilians by Marxists has received virtually no attention at all
|> in Western popular culture.)
I am still waiting for your response to my question about this 100
million claim. If it is that important to you, would you bother to
give a more detailed list of these 100 million? Are these political
victims or victims in (civil) wars?If the later, do you count the
casualties of one side or of both sides?
As the Harvard trained historian that you are, do you recognize that
"the Marxists" are a far more diverse group as "the Nazis" have been?
Why don't we deal with the awful crimes of "the humans" - they surpass
everything either Nazis or "Marxists" ever did...
|> Shahak's book is highly relevant to the question of how we assign
|> relative blame to Jews and non-Jews in what appears at this point
|> in history to be a never-ending and eternal state of apocalyptic
|> conflict between Jews and non-Jews all over the world and all
|> throughout history. (Fifty years ago it was the Nazis; now it is
|> the Arabs and Muslims; is there any light at the end of this
|> tunnel? I am beginning to think not. And the state of perpetual
|> crisis is beginning to grow tiresome for many non-Jews and Jews
|> alike.)
What about the "apocalyptic conflict between non-Americans and
Americans?" Fifty years ago it was the Nazis, then the Russians, the
Vietnamese, the Cubans, the Columbian Drug Lords...
Postulating a conflict between "non-Members of an ethnic group and
Members of an ethnic group" will give you nearly perpetual war for
every major group on this planet. There is not _one_ conflict between
Jews and non-Jews - there are a number of different conflicts between
different groups. The Jews that live in Israel today are a distinct
group from the Jews of eastern Europe in 1940 (there is a continuity,
but there also is a lot of change).
|> I once thought that Jews throughout history subscribed to a
|> tolerant and humanistic religion that was persecuted by a bigoted
|> Christian tradition. It has come as quite a surprise to learn
|> from Shahak and others just how deep the bigotry and intolerance
|> have also run on the Jewish side of the fence. The responsibility
|> for this dangerous conflict and friction needs to be assigned to
|> both sides, in proportions that are open to debate.
Oh boy - you really believed that the Jews are a lilly-white group,
totally devoid of the intolerant subgroups that nearly any other
ethnic group has?
BTW, Wayne, did you notice that on the one hand you demand answers
form Ken McVay within hours, while, on the other hand, you yourself
are absent for weeks and, even if you reappear, do not address much of
the responses to your postings?
Stephan
-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18671 of alt.revisionism:
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From: ljz@panix.com (Lloyd Zusman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Date: 07 Nov 1994 21:43:15 GMT
Organization: Panix
Lines: 31
Message-ID:
References:
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In-reply-to: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:29:37 GMT
In article , rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) writes:
> 1. It was a law common among Indians that the stronger of
> two tribes or people (nations) has the right to conquer and subdue
> the weaker.
> 2. Under Indian common law it was understood that land
> claims existed by inhabiting the land and by any use of the land.
> 3. When any land was unoccupied or not used for one year,
> the land was free for anyone to claim and settle.
Please provide documentation for 1, 2, and 3 above. There were many
nations of natives here before the Europeans arrived. Did they all
adhere to the exact, same "common law"?
> This first law of the Indians could actually render all other
> arguments of land rights academic. This law was almost a way of
> life with the Indian, which is why they were always warring among
> themselves, and perhaps why they were so few in number. The
> wars and conflicts between the white race and the Indian race
> throughout history are numerous, and the fact that the white race
> was the stronger cannot be doubted.
Please provide documentation for your claim that the American natives
"were always warring among themselves."
--
Lloyd Zusman 01234567
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens
References:
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 01:27:09 GMT
Lines: 66
In article wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) writes:
>In article ,
>bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) wrote:
>
>//Ok, you're on: Two recent movies portraying obviously Jewish stars as
>//scum:
>
>//2. Warren Beatty's recent portrayal of Bugsy Siegel, the ruthless
>//Mafia gangster.
>
>Well, I think we have established with certainty that Barry
>Shein's critical abilities in judging movies leave a good deal to
>be desired.
>
>_Bugsy_ is hardly Barry Levinson's best film (_Diner_ is my
>favorite),
Who cares? Why would we care what movies some asshole likes?
> but there can be little doubt that Levinson here was
>trying to do for the Jews what Francis Ford Coppola did for the
>Italians: present their criminals as romantic and swashbuckling
>American entrepreneurs and self-starters taking a walk on the
>wild side.
Are you seriously trying to imply that Sicilian and Italian-Americans
*liked* the image that the Godfather movies portrayed of their
culture?
>[tripe deleted]
>
>I can't recall many movies in which Jews were portrayed as
>viciously as Arabs and Muslims were in, say, _True Lies_. Perhaps
>you can. I can think of many movies in which Christians have been
>ridiculed. I can't think of any movies in which religious Jews
>have been similarly treated.
Would it make you happier if you could? How about 60 Minutes tonight?
There was a pretty damning portrayal of Kiryas Joel. I'll be waiting
for you to somehow imply that the entire religion is corrupt due to
the actions of some greedy megalomaniacs.
>
>Do you think we will see a docudrama on ABC, CBS, or NBC about
>the madness of Menachem Schneerson and his followers, who
>proclaimed him the Messiah? Bet not. The howls, the howls!
Nice obsession with MM Schneersohn herein demonstrated yet again.
Previously, I requested this asserter to supply some documentation of
an earlier undocumented attack on the Lubavitcher Rebbe. He, as always,
provided none.
Why does this poster constantly deign to stand in judgement of the
religious beliefs and practices of others? I ask again, knowing that
it will not be provided: Document what you refer to as "madness", or
(ha, ha) admit that you are spouting about things you know nothing about.
The only howls here are howls of laughter at someone who presents
himself as some superior intellect, but is constantly revealed as
a paper tiger with a couple of pathetic obsessions.
Oh, as always, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ALT.REVISIONISM?
| -DS I speak for myself only. No unsolicited e-mail, please. |
| Please do not use my name in any subject headers. |
| Obligatory quote: "Sometimes one must cut off a finger to save a hand" |
| -Po, lowly priest of Hunan province, Shao-Lin Master |
Article 18683 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
Date: 5 Nov 1994 08:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5NOV199408031487@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50
In article , rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage) writes...
>Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
>: wrote:
>: # I do not believe that many of the
>: # people who call themselves >>Jews<< today have any blood ties to
>: # the people of Abraham and Isaac.
>: Mr. Hoffman truly reveals his own racism by writing this. Being a
>: Jew has nothing to do with any "blood ties" but with one's
>: decision to accept Judaism. Genetics has nothing to do with it.
> This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of
>today are "God's Chosen People." Thanks for the admission. It also
>disclaims their right to the land in Palestine since this was the claim
>they used to justify their "right" to it.
Rick, why does this admission disprove Judaism's claim? God is a
religious concept, not a racial concept. Doesn't it make sense that a
claim to be God's chosen people be a religious claim?
Note: as an atheist, I don't put much stake in any religion's claim to
be chosen. But I fail to see why this seems to get taken out of a
religious context when it is applied to the Jews' claim.
They may or may not have a "right" to Palestine/Israel. But don't they
claim that right based *in part* on the religious link to the land?
Isn't that different than claiming a direct hereditary link to the
land? And isn't the other part of their claim simply that Britain gave
them the land?
===========================================================================
daniel david mittleman - danny@arizona.edu - (602) 621-2932
Article 18689 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoffman's Kastner claim stands up
Date: 8 Nov 1994 07:06:28 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 17
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu
wrote:
# The revisionist case for Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor has not
# been entirely convincing.
True.
# According to technical reports from the U.S. Bureau of Mines and to private
# scientific research to which I am privy, diesel engines can be made extremely
# lethal with a few minor adjustments.
Yes, like restricting the air intake. This was discussed here at
length. Can you specify the U.S. Bureau of Mines source? Thanks.
-Danny Keren.
Article 18696 of alt.revisionism:
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From: cave@bony.rand.org (Jonathan Cave)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
Date: 7 Nov 1994 10:08:08 -0800
Organization: RAND, Santa Monica CA
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References:
NNTP-Posting-Host: bony.rand.org
In article ,
Rick Savage wrote:
>Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
> I believe the Bible defines who are "god's chosen people". It is
>rather plain. If you are ignorant of the reference I can post them.
>Then we can show how the modern day "Jews" of Judaism do not fit any of
>the qualifications.
OK, Rick, go ahead.
> Judaism is a religion. The only admission I want is it find's no
>basis in the Christian Bible, but rather their Babylonian Talmud. The 64
>volumes of the Talmud are a mind-bending justification for doing
>everything the Bible condemns. This is why it is antithetical to the
>Bible and the Christian Religion.
Which parts of the Bible are you writing out of the "Christian Bible" Rick?
Kings for starters, that's clear. Want to go for the whole OT?
Article 18700 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
In-Reply-To: hoffman2nd@delphi.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 94 19:33:45 -0500
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <5KxVTkQ.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
<3931t5$gr3@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
<397scu$mmn@residuum.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 07:03:28 GMT
Lines: 26
From: hoffman2nd@delphi.com
>Well, let us see, last February a certain Israeli army officer was in the
>news doing bad things Americans don't like: he butchered scores of Muslim
>men and boys while they knelt in prayer.
>
>Will this get slammed in the movies any time soon? Do not hold your breath.
Well, since other Israeli army officers shot him to death on the spot
there really isn't much of a basis for the story you seem to want
here, is there.
I assume you're just disappointed because the story was featured so
prominently and unambiguously in the ZIONIST-JEWISH-WORLD-CONTROL
media.
But I guess you had to figure out *some* way to get some mileage out
of it...they haven't made a movie out of it...what a swell complaint
hoffman-sub-2...gak.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18705 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
Date: 9 Nov 1994 00:38:13 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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In article ,
Rick Savage wrote:
> Go argue with the Judeo-Christians. They still believe the myth
>that the "Jews" of Judaism are the literal blood descendants of the Jews
>of the Old and New Testaments.
You mean that there are none left? What happened to them? Did you
decide that the Nazis killed them all off after all?
>Since you don't believe in this fiction
>then you are perfectly welcom to ridicule it all you want.
Thank you for your misunderstanding. I merely said that religiously,
someone who converts to Judaism is a Jew. I did not say that every Jew is
a convert of the descendant of one. I do not believe this, and I have a
perfectly good reason to think that I *am* a literal blood descendant of
the Jews of the Old Testament. Think about it for a minute, you might be
able to figure out what I'm talking about.
> Your second comment is interesting. I thought "Identity"
>Christianity believed that God does the choosing, not us choosing God.
Well, the converts to Christianity "chose" it, and could not have
been "chosen" unless they had made their complementary choice first, right?
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Article 18708 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 8 Nov 1994 07:35:49 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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wrote:
# Well, let us see, last February a certain Israeli army officer was in the
# news doing bad things Americans don't like: he butchered scores of Muslim
# men and boys while they knelt in prayer.
1) For the record, he was not an "Israeli army officer". He was in
the reserve forces, but everyone in Israel is.
2) I was trying to recall what ever became of that American hero,
Lt. Calley. Calley and his boys murdered 400 innocent people in
My-Lai, in one day: women, children, and old men. I recall (from
a truly excellent documentary) that Calley shot 80 of them
himself.
Now, whatever happened to that good old boy? He spent 1.5 years
in house arrest, did he not? Didn't many "patriotic
organizations" loudly and furiously protest any attempt to
punish him? Wasn't he considered a hero and described as a
hero by many Americans?
# Will this get slammed in the movies any time soon? Do not hold your breath.
Shortly ago, a Palestinian terrorist blew up a bus in Tel-Aviv,
killing 22 Israelis. Is anyone making a movie on that, yet?
-Danny Keren.
Article 18710 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: 8 Nov 1994 12:15:43 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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wrote:
# Danny Keren writes:
## 1) For the record, he was not an "Israeli army officer". He was in
## the reserve forces, but everyone in Israel is.
# Nonsense. The Haredim do not serve.
True, but he was not a "Haredi", so it's not really relevant.
# Goldstein, the army officer, was wearing
# his uniform when he opened fire and gained entrance to the Tomb of the
# Patriarchs due to his military status.
He wore his uniform, true, probably to appear less suspicious. No
one can tell what went on in his twisted mind. However, he was not
an army officer, but served in the reserve forces.
Is this really that important?
-Danny Keren.
Article 18718 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
In-Reply-To: wmcguire@world.std.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 15:47:09 GMT
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
<39a2a7$lb9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
<39lh1q$gaj@louie.udel.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 05:50:11 GMT
Lines: 84
From: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire)
>In fact, very few outsiders ever join or are encouraged to join.
>Judaism is much more ethnocentric than Christianity, Islam, or
>Buddhism, although it would be unfair to characterize Judaism as
>a whole as racialist or racist.
Judaism is not proselytizing. Stop looking at everything through your
Christian-colored-glasses.
You're right, Jews didn't march, star of david in hand, through crowds
of heathens in Africa or the Americas shouting ``domini domini domini,
yer all Christians'', er, Jews, whatever.
And the phrase "convert or die" is not often associated with Judaism,
is it?
Gimmee a break. They don't proselytize.
>Christians and Buddhists do not, for instance, define themselves
>in nationalistic, ethnocentric, or tribalistic terms.
Oh, right, I guess that explains why all those folks were fleeing to
America to escape religious persecution. Who where they being
persecuted by, Wayne? Taoists?
And I won't even mention what's been going on in Northern Ireland
between Catholics and Protestants for most of this century (oops, I
guess I did mention it.)
Why do you think Germany and Austria exist as two separate countries?
Hint: The Austrians are Roman Catholics.
What do you think the dividing lines in the war in the former
Yugoslavia are?
What do you think has been causing all the friction between the
British and the French these past 400+ years?
What exactly *was* the Thirty Years War about? Or the Glorious
Revolution? And what was all that stuff between Henry VIII and the
Pope about? And Mary, Queen of Scots?
And hey, HOWSABOUT THOSE CRUSADES!
This is comedy, right? You're joking, tell me you're joking.
>Christianity does not manifest itself through a particular
>physical nation (like Israel)
You mean you've never heard of the Vatican State?
That's *AMAZING*!
>Christians do not comprise an ethnic group, nor do
>Muslims or Buddhists.
Unlike, oh, the Black Ethiopian Jews, or the Sephardim, the Ashkenazi,
etc.?
>The Lubavitchers are one of the most influential
>religious Jewish sects of the 20th century.
The Lubavitchers are mostly harmless crackpots Wayne. They're a
charismatic sect.
They are as representative of Judaism as the Amish are of
Protestantism.
The Lubavitchers are one of the major branches of the Chassidic
movement founded in the early/mid-19th century in and around Warsaw,
Poland. These are the folks with the wide-brimmed hats and the long,
curled sideburns and the heavy gray frock coats they wear in Jerusalem
and Brooklyn in the summer.
You are either truly full of shit, or deluded, or both. I say both.
Fuck you Wayne, seriously, Fuck you.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18719 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.revisionism:18719 alt.religion.christian:3704 alt.christnet:4455
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Jews"
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:29:37 GMT
Message-ID:
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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References:
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:01:16 GMT
Lines: 27
From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
> At the
>time of discovery (circa 1500 A.D.), the American Indian
>numbered about 700,000 inhabitants, sparsely scattered over what
>is now America.
There were about 6 million Incas living in Mexico at the time of the
European discovery.
There were 10-12 million Indians living in North America at the same
time.
What are you talking about?
Instead of raving like a madman why don't you just pick up an
encyclopaedia for 5 minutes.
Thus far we have demonstrated, once again, that your entire twisted
belief system resembles a spelling error.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18720 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:41:07 GMT
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:17:32 GMT
Lines: 64
From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
>: I think you're about the only one here who seems to believe that
>: "god's chosen people" is exclusively an inherited quality.
>
> I believe the Bible defines who are "god's chosen people". It is
>rather plain. If you are ignorant of the reference I can post them.
Yes, please do post them and we will see who is ignorant. Please stick
to the Old Testament.
Any comment on your recent claim that there were only 750,000 Indians
living in the Americas in 1500 when every other reference seems to put
the number in North America and Mexico alone at closer to TWENTY
MILLION.
Yes, ignorant, you're right, there are certainly ignorant people
around here...
>: Go read the Ten Commandments in the bible, as a good start.
>
> And how does this relate to defining "God's chosen people"?
I dunno, it's your nightmare.
>: Where exactly does it say "Thou shalt not be the son or daughter of a
>: non-Jew"? Nowhere.
>
> Where does it say anything about "Jews" being "God's Chosen
>People"? Nowhere.
Actually, there's not a word of english in the whole thing.
>: It says do this, do that, do this, etc, all voluntary acts on the part
>: of the individual, and you shall be one of God's chosen people, ie, a
>: Jew. Ok, there are some other things not covered by the Ten
>: Commandments, Leviticus and all that, but show me where this is
>: limited to a genetic or racial group.
>
> Does it? Where does it say this? Where do you find the word "Jew" in
>any of it? The word "Jew" doesn't even show up until the book of Kings.
>Long after Leviticus. Any good Bible Concordance can show you this.
Any good concordance in English, right?
And what has the word "jew" got to do with anything?
What exactly is your point?
> Thanks for clearing that up. Thanks for clearing up the
>misconception regarding the "Jews" claim to being "God's Chosen People".
>It is not based on the Bible or the God of the Bible but their religion
>ONLY. This is what I've been saying all along.
Huh?
As I've said before, your entire bizarre belief system resembles, upon
examination, a spelling error.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18721 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic
In-Reply-To: rsavage@netcom.com's message of Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:49:13 GMT
Message-ID:
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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References: <5Y9WrA1.hoffman2nd@delphi.com>
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<39iv67$5av@access1.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 06:22:00 GMT
Lines: 17
From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
> Go argue with the Judeo-Christians. They still believe the myth
>that the "Jews" of Judaism are the literal blood descendants of the Jews
>of the Old and New Testaments.
Cite, please?
Sorry Rick, but given your recent track record if you came thru the
door dripping wet and told me it was raining I would feel compelled to
look out the window just to be sure.
--
-Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
Article 18733 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hollywood Hate Propaganda Documented
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 1994 06:20:24 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, MI (account info: +1 313 998-4562)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: lpi.pnet.msen.com
wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
> The lawyer was played by Sean Penn, not Art Garfunkel, for
> Christ's sake.
You're the second person to correct me, Wayne, though you are
the first to do so publicly, and the first to be profane about it.
Thank you for expanding my store of knowledge.
> I've seen Paul
> Newman, a Jew, give a terrific performance as an Irishman.
Yah, and I've seen Emma Thompson do a fantastic job impersonating
an American. That "acting" stuff is amazing, isn't it?
--
Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy
"I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
I realize that is not risk-free" - Daniel Rice
Article 18738 of alt.revisionism:
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From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
Subject: Re: Judaism is Not Genetic (was: Re: Death Thr
Message-ID:
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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 16:41:07 GMT
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Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:
: From: rsavage@netcom.com (Rick Savage)
: > This admission disproves all of Judaism's claims that the "Jews" of
: >today are "God's Chosen People." Thanks for the admission.
: Huh? How do you figure? You mean if you're the great-great-great...
: grandchild of a convert to Christianity then you can't be "saved" and
: thus enter the Kingdom of Christ? By this same reasoning?
Thanks for your misunderstanding, next...
: I think you're about the only one here who seems to believe that
: "god's chosen people" is exclusively an inherited quality.
I believe the Bible defines who are "god's chosen people". It is
rather plain. If you are ignorant of the reference I can post them.
Then we can show how the modern day "Jews" of Judaism do not fit any of
the qualifications.
: Go read the Ten Commandments in the bible, as a good start.
And how does this relate to defining "God's chosen people"?
: Where exactly does it say "Thou shalt not be the son or daughter of a
: non-Jew"? Nowhere.
Where does it say anything about "Jews" being "God's Chosen
People"? Nowhere.
: It says do this, do that, do this, etc, all voluntary acts on the part
: of the individual, and you shall be one of God's chosen people, ie, a
: Jew. Ok, there are some other things not covered by the Ten
: Commandments, Leviticus and all that, but show me where this is
: limited to a genetic or racial group.
Does it? Where does it say this? Where do you find the word "Jew" in
any of it? The word "Jew" doesn't even show up until the book of Kings.
Long after Leviticus. Any good Bible Concordance can show you this.
: IT'S A RELIGION. IT BELIEVES THAT IF YOU ACCEPT THE RELIGION YOU HAVE
: A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. YOU ARE OF THE CHOSEN. YOW, HOW
: UNUSUAL!
Judaism is a religion. The only admission I want is it find's no
basis in the Christian Bible, but rather their Babylonian Talmud. The 64
volumes of the Talmud are a mind-bending justification for doing
everything the Bible condemns. This is why it is antithetical to the
Bible and the Christian Religion.
: You are one utterly confused person.
Because I don't understand your confusion?
: > Then can the "Jews" of Judaism then finnally denounce their claim to
: >be "God's Chosen People," the "People of the Old Testament," the "People
: >of the Book (Bible)" once and for all and be done with it?
: No, because this is what they believe.
: It's not a genetic, inherited quality you dunderhead.
Thank you, this is the only admission I needed. I'm happy and you
can call me any name you need to appease your sense of self-righteousness.
: Yes indeed the child of Jewish parents (yes I know the rules) is
: Jewish.
: YOU CAN CONVERT TO JUDAISM.
: And if you do, YOU ARE A JEW. YOU BECOME ONE OF GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE,
: according to their theology. Feel free. Wanna become one of God's
: Chosen People and recognized as such by every Jew on earth? Call your
: local rabbi and CONVERT! Ok, it's not as easy as converting to
: Christianity in some mechanical sense, the steps involved, but so
: what, surely that's not your complaint.
Thanks for clearing that up. Thanks for clearing up the
misconception regarding the "Jews" claim to being "God's Chosen People".
It is not based on the Bible or the God of the Bible but their religion
ONLY. This is what I've been saying all along.
--
_____________________Rick Savage ______________________
| Important files on life, liberty and happiness: Rick Savage |
| Anonymous FTP server: ftp.netcom.com - "cd pub/SFA" PO Box 5251 |
| Gov't, history, law, Bible, socialissues Denver, CO 80217 |
Article 18743 of alt.revisionism:
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From: kauhunen@mits.mdata.fi (Kari Nenonen)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Hoffman Grows Himself an Even Longer Nose
Date: 9 Nov 1994 23:00:49 GMT
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