December 28, 2010

"He said, 'So many people who serve time never get a fair second chance,' " said Lurie, who did not indicate when the call occurred. "He said, 'It's never a level playing field for prisoners when they get out of jail.' And he was happy that we did something on such a national stage that showed our faith in giving someone a second chance after such a major downfall.''

How inspiring is the return of Michael Vick? Will it hearten those who are attempting to return to society after serving time and make the rest of us more likely to welcome them back? Or will it make us more likely to think cynically that the rich and famous get special exceptions from the rules? Does Vick make the field look more level or less level?

IN THE COMMENTS: Meade (adopting the commenting style of Trooper York) wrote:

I expect that extremely talented people of all sorts get a lot of chances when they get out of jail. From what I read Vick got about the same type of treatment by the legal system that others who have committed the same crimes get - maybe even a bit more since the system was under such scrutiny. After he got out he got the same chances that anyone else who was the fastest quarterback ever in the NFL would get.

While I would like to think that Vick has grown up and changed his ways, I've been fooled too often before to think of the story of any celebrity as "uplifting." Far better to assume that our politicians, artists, athletes are seducing interns, drowning mistresses, having assignations with strangers in airport men's rooms, beating wives, impregnating women whose names they don't know, torturing animals, and sending pictures of their dick to coworkers. If you can assume that and still watch them govern, make art, or play football, then they are worth watching.

I'm not a fan of Mr. Vick, and consider his actions reprehensible. Having said that, his punishment was far greater than is normally meted out for this crime. He lost his prime earning years as an athlete, undoubtedly many tens of millions of dollars, plus the possibility of endorsements, tens of millions more.

A financial catastrophe so great would destroy most people. I give Vick grudging credit on his comeback, and do believe in the possibility of redemption.

As ghastly as dogfighting is, have you ever seen the ritual torture and slaughter that is bull fighting?

Naaah.Better to criminalize health care. Most doctors will never be on ESPN, so he won't notice them.

"the administration is defining Medicare fraud down to include “unnecessary” and “ineffective” care. And to root this out, it plans to make expanded use of private mercenaries—officially called Recovery Audit Contracts—who will be authorized to go to doctors’ offices and rummage through patients’ records, matching them with billing claims to uncover illicit charges. What’s more, Obamacare increases the fine for billing errors from $11,000 per item to $50,000 without the government even having to prove intent to defraud."(*)

"He said "and I quote" or he said "and I paraphrase" or he didn't say anything of the sort and I just filled it in.

Nice bit of red meat for the haters this morning Ann. Good job."

'Denial' is not a river in Wisconsin, HD. What the heck is the problem with comments/opinion on The Won's thoughts about Mike Vick? He steps in it daily, with abandon...its his 'knowitall' attribute that folks like you eagerly encourage. So don't bitch when somebody else responds.

Did you whine when The Won called his political opponents (fellow citizens he supposedly represents - Valerie Jarrett said so!) 'enemies'?

Some things are unforgivable. I don't care how well he throws a ball. I don't want to watch this kind of creature do anything. I hope that a dog loving defensive player puts him into the hospital and out of the NFL permanently. Now that would be justice.

See how he does applying for a job in the Federal civil service. Preferably one with a clearance requirement.

That would be a pretty big step down, after being elected President.

Speaking of the Eagles and the Democrats, has the President graced us with his opinion on Obama backer Ed Rendell calling us "a nation of wussies"? And is that a step up from Eric Holder's "a nation of cowards"?

There are a great number of people that can throw a football extremely well. There are a very finite number of slots in which a person that can throw a football extremely well can become rich doing so. How each QB gets into that slot is a unique story of talent, luck, and opportunity (heavy on the talent, to be sure).

When you win life's little lottery re QB, then piss all over everyone who didn't get that slot by doing something as wantonly stupid as Vick did, I'm not so sure you should get that second chance.

It's not like he was the best janitor somewhere, went to jail, and is now getting a second chance at being a janitor. Any attempt to draw some sort of equivalency between an NFL QB and other jobs is ridiculous.

What Vick did to the dogs was wrong. However, what he did to the dogs was hardly different than what is done to other creatures that is socially acceptable. He still paid a price for his crimes and was given a heavier penalty than most common criminals of such a crime. Moreover, he actually fullfilled his obligations, which is more than can be said for some other famous Hollywood criminals (looking at you Paris, Lindsey, and oh yeah, OJ).

He is given a second chance so long as he continues to fullfill his obligations. That means no pets for the kids, but also means not committing other crimes, such as various drug violations that many NFL players (that continue to play with second, third, forth chances).

All that said, let's look at why Michael Vick is having a successful second chance. His crime was not out of necessity but more of ignorance and negligence. He didn't truly realize what he was doing wrong when he was committing the crime; and he was more of a fundraiser for the activity than a direct participant. The point is, he wasn't so much a common criminal. He had no need to commit the crime. Many buglars and thieves steal things because they have no other means to acquire such things. These crimes can lead to other things, but they start off with a need to fullfill something that can't otherwise be fullfilled through legal means (or at least they believe it to be the case). When these criminals are caught, spend their time in jail, and released; they still don't have the means to obtain things legally. That's not the case with Michael Vick.

That's not to advocate that we should give released criminals access to million dollar jobs. There is also a basic flaw in this theory. If having a good job to return to is a key; then what about Paris, Lindsey, and oh yeah, OJ?

Michael Vick has a skill that only 5-10 people in the entire USA currently have.

Just about any individual who has that rare of a talent will get a chance to prosper post jailtime. It just happens that Vick can make millions as a NFL player, instead of thousands as a diesel mechanic.

Scott M,Football itself I'm generally apathetic about. Pretty much all sports leave me bored to tears and wondering how anyone is entertained by it all. But football gets its own special place in my personal hell because of the extraordinary emotional investment so many fans have. I mean, having your fun by watching the game when you've got the free time is one thing, patterning your life and identity around it, and viewing the players as gods is quite another.

He knows he is going to get put through the ringer, and it would be so much easier to demogogue (especially since when one is reminded of Micheal Vick's crime it is revolting in the extreme.)

But, he is right. Michael Vick is like many others who have gone to prison and served their sentences. Yet we as a society continue to exact punishment, be it by a lack of full constitutional rights (in many states, for the rest of their lives,) by discrimination in employment and by continuing to hold against them what may have happened decades ago.

There are politicians like Fred Thompson, who after initially defending Philip Martin, let him go at the first hint of criticism (Martin, who worked for Thompson, had been a model citizen for 25 years after leaving prison following 1979 and 1983 convictions for selling marijuana and cocaine.)

Then there are politicians like President Obama, who knows very well that he will get beat up on the talk circuit, blogs and elsewhere for this, but he also knows that he is right.

We as a society seem to expect convicted felons to fail, and almost set things up so they will meet our expectations.

By the way, full disclosure here-- one of my best friends is a convicted felon. So what's it to you?

But football gets its own special place in my personal hell because of the extraordinary emotional investment so many fans have.

I assume you're referring to football in the European sense then? I don't recall very many people dying in NFL-related riots or hooliganism.

In other words, there are just as many passionate, earnest fans of other sports that seem to qualify. Why does football hold a special place in hell for you? Have an ex that loved football?

I played for 12 years including college and loved all but the last year (more of a job at that point than fun), but I can't sit down and watch it on TV. My partner here at work, on the other hand, says his family knows not to bug him on Sundays as he watches three games straight and flips around to the others he's not currently watching during commercials.

Yeah, that sort of thing is annoying in the extreme and I don't understand it (especially as this guy never played a day of football in his life). All I'm saying is that I know people that feel the same way about soccer and basketball.

Mike is a good symbol for hope to the young black inmates who need a hero. Obama is in campaign mode for 2012.Actually Vick is a real example of repenting in the penitentiary. He lost it all for a period of time and now with a humble attitude he has it all back again. This is a meme in Bible based cultures taken from Nebuchadnezzer's fall and restoration. That idea is also why we say insane folks cannot commit crimes...which makes no sense unless we see tem as about to get their right minds back soon. Well, Mike got his right mind back. Go Eagles.

"will it make us more likely to think cynically that the rich and famous get special exceptions from the rules"

What 'rule' is he getting an exception from? It's not like he got the charges dropped against him.

He was able to be employed and thrive due to his abilities. If Vick is granted any benefits it comes not because of fame or wealth, but because of ability. Fame and wealth come from those abilities.

Now calling his story "inspiring" is a bit of a stretch. It's a good comeback story, in that he was able to perform at the level he did before his prison stretch (and arguably, maybe even better than before). But to call it inspiring is overkill.

Would Tom Brady's greatness be enhanced by a period of shame in the middle of his career, as opposed to the knee injury that took him out for a year?

mr vick enjoyed seeing dogs die for his own amusement. he deliberatety inflicted psin and suffering on these poor animals, agai. for his own amusement.

he did so while having access to money and to resources, this was not done to put food on his table or to care for his family.

im sorry mr president, this is just plain cynical in my book. you appeat to forgive a criminal who does not appear to have repented or tried seriously to put a stop to his crimes. i evem believe he got convicted while pleading his innocense and trying to claim he is not guilty.

i would be ok if he got a janitor job, but to ssy he is forgiven sfter showing the biggest cruelty one can possibly do, seeing animals suffer for amusement, im sorry there is no comeasck for that. especially not for a millionaire football playet.

if it was drunk driving, fine i can live with that but deliberate cruelty to animals? it takes a soulless man to that crime and i just dont think this is an appropriate role model for a secnd chance.

The annoying part for me is the notion that the Eagles signing Vick should send a message to all of the close-minded employers out there who have qualms about hiring ex-cons.

No metal shop is going to be approached by a released prisoner who is widely known as one of the most gifted welders in the businesses, and whose behavior since release has withstood public scrutiny. That is the advantage Jeffery Laurie had. Little risk.

The owner of the metal shop is just going to have go pretty much on blind trust. If it’s a different kind of business, say in which employees work with clients, it’s an even bigger risk. Without hardly any of the assurances Laurie enjoyed.

This was an awful case for Obama to use to wag his finger at those relentlessly lawful, hard-hearted Americans.

All that said, let's look at why Michael Vick is having a successful second chance. His crime was not out of necessity but more of ignorance and negligence. He didn't truly realize what he was doing wrong when he was committing the crime; and he was more of a fundraiser for the activity than a direct participant

If you don't know that it is wrong to torture, maim and kill animals, then there is something vital lacking in your personality or soul.

In the case of the ordinary animal torturer, they are generally called sociopaths. In the case of Michael Vick, because he can throw an inflated pig skin, you want to fall all over yourself in making up excuses for him.

Does he deserve a second chance?

A second chance at WHAT?

It seems to me he already has it. He isn't in jail anymore, and he is back to playing (I'm with lissa) an extremely stupid and pointless sport that is paying him millions of dollars.

Obama really needs to focus. He is the freaking President of the United States and should concentrate on his job instead of opinining about fripperies.

Forgiveness was intended for the worst of sinners. It's easy to forgive venal sins. We are called on to forgive the greatest of sinners.

You can read my full comments on Vick at www.harleyscars.com if you're interested.

Vick grew up in ignorance and poverty. So did I. The black version of ignorance and poverty includes the sin of dog fighting. My white trash version of ignorance and poverty included the sins of bootlegging and moonshining. (If you don't think these are sins, then you don't know about the people who are blinded or killed with moonshine and rotgut.)

Giving a young man millions of dollars generally doesn't improve his character. I've seen this syndrome repeatedly in the music biz. Give a young man millions of dollars and he's generally going to waste it on whoring, drugging, drinking and gambling. The testosterone is flowing like a river when a man is young.

Give Vick a chance. It isn't easier for him because he's got money and fame. It's harder. This is a very courageous young man. He's struggling for redemption in the glare of a national spotlight.

I understand that intellectually limited persons such as yourself need something to pass the time, hence the popularity of spectator sports.

You're obviously not paying much attention. I specifically stated in the thread above that I don't watch and can't really understand those that do. If you don't like spectator sports, fine. It's ridiculous to label athletes as making "criminal" salaries when other entertainers (because that's what they are) make a shitload more money for a lot less actual work.

Oh, and ad hominem attacks generally reveal a subconscious admission that you're on shaky ground in a debate. Just sayin'.

If you're blind to the level of goodwill and togetherness a successful sports team (on any level, peewee and up) can bring to a crowd of people, you are truly in the dark about sports and humanity. Rarely have I seen such a widely diverse group of people so wholly together and moving as one than when rooting for their team, whatever that means.

Isn't it about time to let Charles Manson go? After all, he never killed anyone, let alone a dog. Where's Obama when we need him?

I've already said too much, and I'll retire after this.

Do you know anything about the sordid manner in which Charlie Manson entered this world? I do, because I edited a book about Manson. In the process, I learned to feel sympathy and compassion for even the greatest of sinner.

Charlie Manson was born to a whore as the result of a tryst with a John. He was abandoned almost the day he was born. He spent his entire childhood in prison for minor crimes, and suffered beatings and rapes at the hands of older, bigger inmates.

You could not imagine a better way to build a criminal than the fate conferred on Charles Manson.

"Give a young man millions of dollars and he's generally going to waste it on whoring, drugging, drinking and gambling. The testosterone is flowing like a river when a man is young."

Testosterone is no excuse for cruelty to animals. I'll forgive a lot of sins but not this one. He didn't get drunk or high and do something stupid. He may have gone to prison but he is missing basic humanity. That puts him beyond redemption in this world in my opinion.

I think B. Hussein will be known as the first talk show president. He keeps getting involved in stupid discussions that make the talk show rounds when there is no other interesting news. This thug that tortures dogs is not a newsworthy item, and the president has no reason to be opining on it.

No reason except for the same reason it makes the talk show rounds: It is easily susceptible to emotionalism and people feel a need to express their emotions about it.

The question then is whether B. Hussein is exploiting this emotional issue to help direct public conversations, or is he so shallow that he just has to weigh in with everyone else? Neither is good, but I tend to think the latter.

Palladian...the whole World Cup thing must really confuse you, correct? Criminal, isn't it, for those host countries to spend so much money and effort on building facilities and providing security for the teams when they could be building shelter for the needy and handing out food to the poor, right?

Vick's being a pro athlete has nothing to do with it. He is a man who chose, for his own pleasure, to torture and kill innocent animals that wanted only to please the humans that created them. If you can't see that as evil, you have no soul.

If you ever wonder why there are people like Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin or the nasty S.O.B.s that torture and kill children for pleasure, then simply put Vick in a different set of life circumstances and that's what you'd get.

He may have served his time, but I suggest the President calls a regular American who's done nothing but pay his taxes and congratulate him for not doing anything evil today. For not torturing any innocent animals and killing them for a funny gag with their friends. It shouldn't be that hard to find such an exceptional human, worthy of Presidential attention.

Jeff Skilling was undeniably brilliant. Evidence that he personally broke laws involving the Enron scandal is a bit shaky as he seemed more "piss poor in regards to details in the worst possible company to have this issue" than "personally corrupt".

Would Obama applaud a company for giving him a second chance? Or would he view it as an old boys network protecting their own?

He was given a second chance because he could still run a 4.3 40 yard dash with an arm to match.

Of course. I don't begrudge Vick a second chance as long as he reforms himself. But, what's our first black president doing about the 30% of black males that end up in prison. Nothing that I can tell. Our first black president ain't done no more for blacks and the down trodden than any of those white honkeys before him.

Criminal, isn't it, for those host countries to spend so much money and effort on building facilities and providing security for the teams when they could be building shelter for the needy and handing out food to the poor, right?

Well, they could be using the money to improve their entire economy and creating permanent employment. Longer lasting improvements for the entire population.

Spectator sports are a fact of life and seem to be a part of the human condition. They do create some economic benefit in the areas that they operate and now with mass marketing possibly even country wide.

Are the athletes talented? Genetically gifted? Sure. Can I do any of the things they do? Hell no.

But, it doesn't make them above the law. It doesn't make them more than human either. Because Vick is a spectacular athlete we are supposed to give him MORE of a second chance than the ordinary felon?

Like lyssa, I also find it strange and even perverted that some people "obsessively" structure their lives and have their identities wrapped up in being spectators in an activity that really doesn't have any purpose other than perhaps entertainment.

Bread and circuses.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't enjoy or participate in being a spectator to sports. There is a cultural bonding element in such activities that is similar to the bonding that people experience in their pride in their military. This isn't a bad thing when it is balanced with other parts of life.

When it becomes an obsession or we make cultural Gods or icons out of the participants, sports OR military, it is dangerous.

Vick has had his second chance already, so I don't know what the discussion is about.

As a dog person and a Cowboys fan, I want to dislike Michael Vick, but he paid his debt and seems sincere in his change. Good for him in seizing a second chance.

He also doesn't seem to be the whining baby Donovan McNabb was/is.

I still wish nothing but failure on the Eagles.

The next QB coming along with Vick's talent is Robert Griffin III of Baylor, but Griffin has loads of character, has already graduated, and plans to attend law school at some point. Watch out for this guy.

Sometimes they leave records. And a legacy of being an amazing athlete. I don’t like Vick, but I love college football. There is joy in banding together behind the team from your town/state/uni, and watching every play. There is joy in watching people do amazing things. If you don’t get it, you don’t’ get it and that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean it’s useless.

As for Vick, it's a little late to be turning this into a sappy comeback story. So he hasn't gotten in trouble a in a whole two years (or so)? Big deal. We'll talk when he makes serious amends for the dogs.

For the past few years I have been volunteering and working with inmates at the USP Leavenworth (AKA) "the Big House." I find that increasingly I don't care what people think about criminals if they have not had personal experience in the criminal justice system. That would go for many of the comments here. I don't know why BO made the call but it couldn't hurt. leave it alone.

DBQ: In the case of the ordinary animal torturer, they are generally called sociopaths. In the case of Michael Vick, because he can throw an inflated pig skin, you want to fall all over yourself in making up excuses for him.

Hey, I'm not the one giving him a second chance. Take your beef with the O. However, Vick's own testimony was that he didn't realize the violations he was committing. Of course, ignorance is no excuse, and it doesn't require knowledge of the law to know what he was doing was cruel. But as the other commenter noted, and I agree; many people do more heinous things without calling it cruel.

Again, I'm not saying that I excuse what he did or forgive him. I'm just noticing what society tends to allow. Please don't confuse observation with support. In short, don't shoot the messenger.

Of all the Americans this guy could care about, he picks Michael Vick? Vick doesn't need anyone's support, he's doing just fine. Call me, Mr. President, and thank me for giving a poor guy a job last week. He never tortured or killed anybody's pet, so you won't need to explain yourself. I won't make millions off of my new employee, but he needed the job and I could use his talents. Why don't you call me: 1-800-cit-izen.

As a matter of fact, Mr. President, I'm gonna hire 59 people this week. You don't have to call, just leave us alone. Maybe you could tell your insane posse in California to do the same, that's all we need from any of you, just leave us alone.

Hoosier et alMy daughter has come through domestic violence (I choose not to use the word victim though it would apply). As a pastor I minister to victims and perpetrators of crimes. I pastor convicted felons, families of felons, victims of felons, a prosecutor, a sheriff detective and a fireman. Good enough? Oh, lest I forget, my other daughter is a public defender of whom I am justly proud.

Titus said..."As a dog person I also have never felt like Obama liked Bo. He is just not a dog person, I can tell. We are perceptive that way, us dog persons. I don't think the wife likes him the dog either."

Vick mistreated animals, lost millions of dollars, went to jail, and came out saying and doing all the right things.

I don’t get why anyone is bringing this up as some sort of special consequence. He had millions of dollars to lose, which puts him ahead of most of the world. It’s his own stupid fault he lost it by participating in evil, criminal activities.

He served his time and has moved on with his life. That’s all well and good, but let’s not act like it’s anybody’s fault but his that he lost some money…(and that we should feel sorry for him about that-especially since he’s currently in the process of earring a boatload more).

The Death Penalty for offending dog lovers is unconstitutional these days. So Vick and all of those Spanish Bullfighters are safe. But better not steal a toothbrush from CVS or, as a shoplifter, a death sentence with no trial is easily approved here.

Vick lost millions and served time because he had no choice. He got caught. There are some, like I suspect Obama, who would not have had him even do that.

Vick deserves whatever he can get, from us suckers. The dogs deserve what they can get from us as well. We are an admirable species. I'm very proud of what we have all done here, as is our President, except for the punishment part. No, Vick's punishment. I don't care what happened to the dogs. They're dogs for Christ sake.

as a dog person, I'm more concerned about cops. while it's true scumbags will raise and fight pitbulls, cops shoot labs, retrievers, bassets, etc. on a regular basis and never pay any price as long as they roll out the stock excuse: I was (shitting my pants) in fear for my life.

I submit to you, it is not important. Whatever his thoughts or motivations, since he came out of jail he has said the "right" things, has not gotten into any trouble, and worked hard to regain his form as an football player.

As conservatives, as people who criticise liberals, we should know that good intentions and pure thoughts mean nothing. Actions and their consequences count.

Scott M said: I assume you're referring to football in the European sense then? I don't recall very many people dying in NFL-related riots or hooliganism.

In other words, there are just as many passionate, earnest fans of other sports that seem to qualify. Why does football hold a special place in hell for you? Have an ex that loved football?

Nope, no ex- thankfully, I've never had to play second fiddle to the ball game like so many gals I know. My fellows always put me first.

Look, in reality, this is a regional thing. If I lived in Europe, I'm certain that I'd be saying the same thing about European football, or perhaps even more so (those people are nuts!). And, I'm sure that there are people who are this obnoxious about baseball and basketball; I just haven't met them. In my area, it's football. You would just have to see the people in this area to get it. Game day = the world shuts down to them. Every family has a story about loved ones who dared to try to get married on a game day- I have a friend who's in laws actually refused to come to their own child's wedding because watching the game was more important. That is not an unusual story. I routinely see pathetic little girls who are constantly trying to show what big fans they are, because daddy *only* pays attention to them when they support his team (and then find the same in their boyfriends). People who, when they find out where you went to school, cannot talk about anything but the team, and simply cannot fathom how you went to school there to learn, and weren't at every game. People who pay hundreds of dollars for tickets, while they can't make their mortgages. People pattern their lives around what the Vols are doing, whether they win or lose. It's twisted.

Like I said (and DBQ said it better than me), there's nothing wrong with following sports as a hobby. But it's not a hobby to a lot of people, it's a life.

I don't really mind that Vick is back playing; he did his time. But the president of the United States of America should have many, many better greater concerns about than the fate of a former convict, who is interesting just because he has a special talent for throwing a ball.

Shoutingthomas at 9:16 makes a number of wise and temperate observations. But I am not so sure that Vicks can be described as poor. Elite athletes of his caliber learn early enough that they are very special and destined for money. From middle school on, they are pampered and treated better than their peers. Vicks was a child of wealth....Can anyone point to a professional athlete of stature who was not given a second, third, or fourth chance? Some of them have been involved in truly despicable acts, but the fans still cheer them through the marketplace. I was hoping that Vicks would be the exception, that, at long last, the public would say that's too much. We will have to wait for the first self admitted homosexual to see that happen.

People pattern their lives around what the Vols are doing, whether they win or lose. It's twisted.

OK. You've taken this a little too far!!! My beloved Vols!!!

Just kidding. I can remember back to when Johnny Majors played (not coached) for the Volunteers. But I've never taken it all that seriously. I can't tell you the name of the kid who will start at quarterback in the upcoming bowl game.

Some people take sports way too seriously, especially many Vol fans. On the other hand, it's better than being a Kentucky football fan and watching UK lose to Tennessee every season for the past 26 years. :)

I suspect that the dogs were tortured and killed precisely because Vick has already received more than a healthy share of forgiveness and second chances during his upbringing.

Forgiveness is something in the heart, it should not relieve you of responsibility to fix what you break, otherwise it creates evil men from weak ones, and maybe even strong ones. Without easy forgiveness, men would think twice about breaking what they cannot fix.

But the president of the United States of America should have many, many better greater concerns about than the fate of a former convict, who is interesting just because he has a special talent for throwing a ball.

As Jason (the commenter) and Meade referred to, this isn't about Vick, it's about a narcissistic, detached man trying to appear cool and in touch when, in reality, he in incapable of understanding others.

All this compassion for ex-cons. They suffer for years after their sentences have been served? Good! What about their victims? You think their suffering ends? You goddamned lefty fakes who don't give a tinkers damn for the decent innocent victims of the thugs you slobber over. May you rot in hell forever.

Bullfighting involves fighting between a fighting bull and a man. As many a matador has found, the bulls are quite capable of fighting back. After the bulls are killed, they are eaten; their meat is often used to feed the poor.

Dogfighting (cockfighting, bearbaiting, etc.) is a wager sport involving animals fighting each other. The man runs no risk of physical harm. The animal's remains are discarded.

Another distinction. Vick perpetrated his cruelty not for pleasure, but for cold profit. Running a dogfighting ring is running a gambling ring. Dogfighting exists because of the cultural imperative of gambling.

The wager aspect of all this is the elephant in the dark corner. To me, that seems far colder than doing these things out of sociopathic cruelty. There's something beyond that, and that is where Vick went; the calculated infliction of cruelty and death based only on whether a dog could turn a profit for him. It's as if a boxing promoter took away the loser's purse and took him out behind the venue and put a bullet in his head because he'd outlived his usefulness as a prizefighter. Saying that Vick inflicted cruelty out of pleasure is a cop out and lets him off lightly. What he did was not the act of a mental defect, but of a very sharp, culturally acclimated mind. Vick knew exactly what he was doing and why.

I enjoy reading and occasionally commenting on several blogs. At the same time I'm disturbed by the level of vitriol that is routinely evident. I can only equate it to what happens on a freeway. There and here its easy to de-personalize someone and make them the object of scorn and rage.

That's why the occasional three dimensional comment is so encouraging. ST has given me several in this thread and I'll admit I thought I had him "pegged" and "cubby-holed".

Thanks ST.

AS for Mr. Vick, the dog fighting and abusive acts were horrible. The criminal justice system responded. On the football field he is an incredible performer. That says nothing about the criminal acts.

As for redemption, that's not mine to give and I'll withhold judgement until he's long done with football.

(PS: Titus, whoever you are, comments like this:I wonder if Vick had any prison sex. That would be hot.keep you two-dimensional)

AllenS said...Life isn't fairNo shit. Ted Kennedy caused the death of a young woman and did no time.

And Laura Bush caused the death of a young man in a traffic accident and did no time.What is your point, Allen S?We need more prisons and anyone who accidentally kills or injures someone in them???

===================ricpic said...All this compassion for ex-cons. They suffer for years after their sentences have been served? Good! What about their victims? You think their suffering ends? You goddamned lefty fakes who don't give a tinkers damn for the decent innocent victims of the thugs you slobber over. May you rot in hell forever

The problem is that you can't have it both ways Ricpic. Maintain you wish to blackball anyone with a criminal record forever and shut them out of employment and good graces in society forever in the Name of the Sacred Victim...Then moan out of the other side of your mouth when criminal recidivism from lifelong blackballing creates new crimes and new victims.

What I would like to see is realistic assessments of who are fine rehab candidates that don't need massive restrictions on job hunting outside a small geograhical area and lifestyle in terms of Probation - And those likely to be career criminals that have to be monitored extensively.

Bullfighting involves fighting between a fighting bull and a man. As many a matador has found, the bulls are quite capable of fighting back. After the bulls are killed, they are eaten; their meat is often used to feed the poor.

Dogfighting (cockfighting, bearbaiting, etc.) is a wager sport involving animals fighting each other. The man runs no risk of physical harm. The animal's remains are discarded.

The animals remains are eaten in most countries or at least used. In Asia the dog would be a meal. The killed cock roosters, fighting ram sheep wagered over assuredly are eaten everywhere. As for discarding no longer useful animals or ones best not bred - it happens all the time in the hard-eyed world of animal racing, breeding. Runt puppies are routinely destroyed in puppy mills, greyhounds & horses no longer able to race are sent to the glue factory.

Another distinction. Vick perpetrated his cruelty not for pleasure, but for cold profit. Running a dogfighting ring is running a gambling ring. Dogfighting exists because of the cultural imperative of gambling.

The wager aspect of all this is the elephant in the dark corner. To me, that seems far colder than doing these things out of sociopathic cruelty.

Most people who gamble don't NEED to gamble. They gamble because they LIKE to. If you have such a problem with gambling and profit from running gambling..then do you want to shut down activities far past dog-fighting?

@lyssa: The existential challenge of life is to make the dreary passage of monotonous moments seem significant and exciting. There are probably other ways than watching or playing sports to do this, but there can be no denying the utility of sports in fulfilling this purpose. What else is there to do in February except watch the Super Bowl.....I'm disappointed that the President has not yet taken the time to point out that there are no admitted gay athletes in the NFL. The NFL seemingly has a policy of Don't Even Think About Telling. As our military has taken a step forward in this area, so should the NFL. Most of their teams play in stadia that have been built with public money. It is a travesty that the gay segment of our society whose taxes have built these edifices have been so ruthlessly excluded from participation. Let the moral crusade begin. The Ivy League should drop football until such time as gays are admitted into the NFL. Progressive Big Ten schools like UW can follow suit. I'm sure that Palladian's evident disinterest in football is because there is no gay halfback he can get behind and root for. It is a harsh judgement of our society that puppy killers like Vick are welcomed into the NFL and not a single member of the NY Giants can admit their sexual orientation.

Most people who gamble don't NEED to gamble. They gamble because they LIKE to. If you have such a problem with gambling and profit from running gambling..then do you want to shut down activities far past dog-fighting?

You are willfully missing the point. I'm not passing judgement on gambling, except when it is not legal, as was the case with Vick. What you've failed to grasp is that profit from gambling was Vick's motivation to inflict cruelty on dogs. Not that a crypto-Nazi such as yourself could possibly fathom the concept, but that is not the same as passing judgment on gambling.

And Laura Bush caused the death of a young man in a traffic accident and did no time.

You don’t see a difference between a tragic traffic accident that happens at 17 and a grown man sneaking off to leave a woman to drown to death without telling anyone (when he drove her into the river)? Really?

We give higher penalties for stuff like a hit and run for a reason. And if there was a possibility that the woman Kennedy drowned could have been saved, we will never know since he didn't even try. That a bit far beyond a traffic accident.

As for the dogfighting, it is not culturally acceptable in this country because it is cruel and dangerous. It is also illegal, and Vick knew that.

a christmas message regarding redemption and forgiveness may not be inappropriate coming from the president...but why, of all the possible candidates, would barack choose to laud someone whose crimes were of such a sadistic and depraved nature ?

adding to Cedrarfor. Male chickens are killed in egg farm for the thousands on going out of the shellAnd cockfighting was a presidential sport. Teddy liked itThe Supreme Court allowed the sacrifice of animal in the name of religion

All animal lovers and anyone with a shred of decency should boycott all Eagles games. I refuse to finance Mike Vick. He should be forever barred from playing any professional sports.

Did Mike Vick give dogs a second chance as they lay there whimpering for mercy? No, all dogs who didn’t perform well were executed in a brutal manner. Take a look at photos of the mercy Mike Vick showed the dogs. http://www.animalrightsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/loveofdogs31.jpghttp://www.jollybengali.net/theconfluence/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/gypsy.jpg

The Bible says, “You will reap what you sow” which basically means what goes around comes around. He should receive the same kind of mercy. He should stop being such a cry baby as if he is a victim and take what he has done like a man. Mike Vick will not change but find a way to continue dog fighting under the radar of officials. I say this because for years he participated in dog fighting and only stopped because he was caught. Even his own Father urged him to stop in 2001 and he refused. If a Son will not listen to his own Father, then who will he listen to?Boddie told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution that around 2001, Vick was staging dogfights in the garage of the family's home in Newport News and kept fighting dogs in the family's backyard, including injured ones which the father nursed back to health. Boddie said his son had been urged to not engage in the activity, but continued. He stated: "This is Mike's thing. And he knows it."

If Obama wants Mike Vick to have a second chance then let the government give it to him. Recruit him in the military so he can observe REAL men and women doing REAL work and not for the absurd amounts Mike gets for tossing a ball around.