Post by ipsedixit on May 24, 2019 18:04:28 GMT -5

I'm disgusted that worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy, while not a cent (that I'm aware) has ever gone to one of the complainants to help them put their lives back together.

On what basis do you make this allegation that worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy?

do the attorneys for the workers work pro bono?

But of course, there's absolutely no hierarchy right? So really, it's a technicality that they cannot have their bills paid by the hierarchy. Because it doesn't exist. Because they're nothing organization. They're just some random folks who felt the call of the spirit. They don't report to anyone.

Post by Lee on May 24, 2019 18:06:34 GMT -5

Atheists want to blame it on christians. That is silly dumb! Blame it on dumb christians maybe, but then, whose calling the kettle black?

Christ is a healer beyond any atheist. How rude, how self centered of them to proclaim this is all there is to life and condemn persons arguing otherwise. So many people stepped on in saying that....people who've never had lives for health reasons and for victim-of-sin reasons.

This is the tmb. It's owned by atheists. It's purpose is to subject religious dialogue to atheism.

Christians believe Gods going to fold this obsolete world into a new one. Surely he's just begun.

Post by joanna on May 24, 2019 19:08:03 GMT -5

There is no doubt about the great healer’s existence - no doubt about the historicity of Christ. And as you know people who believe in Jesus accept the written record of eye witness accounts of Christ after His resurrection.

Obviously, everyone forms their own view about Jesus and clearly those who believe do not do so on the basis of no evidence - there is plenty. It’s all been discussed a million times.

It’s just a bit puzzling why some atheists spend so much time thinking about Jesus and the Bible and why nearly every thread on TMB these days has to end up in an attack on Jesus. I’m sure He is not terribly worried - He hasn’t promised to intervene in a fallen world ahead of His return and Christians look forward to the day that He will make all things new.

elizabethcoleman stated she was cured of an emotion by the great healer Jesus. Referring to Jesus in this manner infers Jesus IS intervening in the world. Do you believe her claim to be untrue?You and other Christians have referred to him as being present and a source of help and peace in times of trouble.

Yet victims of CSA are scarred for life- both physically and psychologically so...

It is a simple yet vital point which needs to be clarified: If Jesus is the great healer, why has he continually failed to protect children who would inevitably have prayed to him for help when they were being cruelly sexually abused?

It must be a turn-off for professing people when TMB is clearly a board predominantly about a church that believes in Jesus

Your concern for professing people presents as being false given you have accused the 2x2 group/church of heresy and you stated that the workers do not uphold Jesus as Lord and God.

Post by benar on May 24, 2019 19:37:23 GMT -5

If there were no churches I don't believe there would be any fewer abusers. Since the beginning of time abusers have hidden themselves in groups: sports, families,community, clubs etc...If there were no churches they would just find another group to attach themselves to.I get so frustrated when people blame a particular group for CSA. No group can be held responsible for a particular persons actions, it is only how the abuse and the abusers are delt with that is important.

It is evident that religious organisations shield abusers from prosecution etc. This seems to be far less prevalent in other (non-religious) organisations. Nothing will completely eradicate CSA, but not shielding abusers would help reduce the number of perpetrators collecting multiple victims. You may notice I did not single out 2x2s or even Christianity here. Don't make a strawman out of my comments.

Re-read your post, substituting Allah for God, Mohammad for Jesus and Koran for Bible. If your post doesn’t convince you to convert to Islam, it’s not a convincing argument to make in defence of your own religion.

Post by benar on May 24, 2019 19:43:30 GMT -5

Atheists want to blame it on christians. That is silly dumb! Blame it on dumb christians maybe, but then, whose calling the kettle black?

Strawman argument

Christ is a healer beyond any atheist.

Assertion without evidence.

How rude, how self centered of them to proclaim this is all there is to life and condemn persons arguing otherwise.

Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred.

Christians believe Gods going to fold this obsolete world into a new one. Surely he's just begun.

A belief does not make a fact.

Re-read your post, substituting Allah for God, Mohammad for Jesus and Koran for Bible. If your post doesn’t convince you to convert to Islam, it’s not a convincing argument to make in defence of your own religion.

Post by benar on May 24, 2019 19:44:11 GMT -5

Re-read your post, substituting Allah for God, Mohammad for Jesus and Koran for Bible. If your post doesn’t convince you to convert to Islam, it’s not a convincing argument to make in defence of your own religion.

Post by BobWilliston on May 24, 2019 21:05:23 GMT -5

I just get annoyed that religions built on myths facilitate all sorts of harm, of which CSA is one.

If there were no churches I don't believe there would be any fewer abusers. Since the beginning of time abusers have hidden themselves in groups: sports, families,community, clubs etc...If there were no churches they would just find another group to attach themselves to.I get so frustrated when people blame a particular group for CSA. No group can be held responsible for a particular persons actions, it is only how the abuse and the abusers are delt with that is important.[/quote]Churches only attract blame to themselves when they assume the authorityof government -- investigation, prosecution, judgement, and punishment.CSA is not the only area where churches intrude on civil authority.And it's not just churches who intrude on civil authority.

Post by Dan on May 24, 2019 21:43:09 GMT -5

Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred.

Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.

Post by wally on May 24, 2019 22:43:49 GMT -5

Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred.

Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.

wow thats what my mother said a long time ago to a guy who brought up the very same thing....good job

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Post by Dan on May 24, 2019 22:59:49 GMT -5

Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.

wow thats what my mother said a long time ago to a guy who brought up the very same thing....good job

Post by joanna on May 25, 2019 0:27:30 GMT -5

Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.

Post by janj on May 25, 2019 0:38:39 GMT -5

I just get annoyed that religions built on myths facilitate all sorts of harm, of which CSA is one.

If there were no churches I don't believe there would be any fewer abusers. Since the beginning of time abusers have hidden themselves in groups: sports, families,community, clubs etc...If there were no churches they would just find another group to attach themselves to.I get so frustrated when people blame a particular group for CSA. No group can be held responsible for a particular persons actions, it is only how the abuse and the abusers are delt with that is important.

Churches only attract blame to themselves when they assume the authorityof government -- investigation, prosecution, judgement, and punishment.CSA is not the only area where churches intrude on civil authority.And it's not just churches who intrude on civil authority.[/quote]

By the way - that wasn't my quote, but the site seems to be playing up and quoting things directly under the previous poster instead of in a new box.

Post by nathan on May 25, 2019 1:08:35 GMT -5

Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.

For over 4 billion years there were no humans on this planet.The belief that the planet was created for us makes zero sense.

The earth is approx. 4.5 billion years old.There had been other human races (Neanderthals, Denisovan, Homo erectus, and others) for millions or maybe billion of years created by God.

Then 6000 years ago, The Elohim= God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit created Adamic homo sapiens race in the Garden of Eden. The Godhead created Adam and Eve in their Image, so they and their children would RULE and REIGN with them over all of His/their creation in the Universe! Satan deceived Adam and Eve into sins and they lost their crown of life/Immortality and they became mortal beings.

Christ came down from heaven to RESTORE their rightful place with Him as the children of God created in their image to RULE the Universe with the Godhead.

Post by Dan on May 25, 2019 1:16:03 GMT -5

Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.

Post by BobWilliston on May 25, 2019 1:31:13 GMT -5

Churches only attract blame to themselves when they assume the authorityof government -- investigation, prosecution, judgement, and punishment.CSA is not the only area where churches intrude on civil authority.And it's not just churches who intrude on civil authority.

By the way - that wasn't my quote, but the site seems to be playing up and quoting things directly under the previous poster instead of in a new box.

Post by Ross.Bowden on May 25, 2019 8:41:23 GMT -5

There is no doubt about the great healer’s existence - no doubt about the historicity of Christ. And as you know people who believe in Jesus accept the written record of eye witness accounts of Christ after His resurrection.

Obviously, everyone forms their own view about Jesus and clearly those who believe do not do so on the basis of no evidence - there is plenty. It’s all been discussed a million times.

It’s just a bit puzzling why some atheists spend so much time thinking about Jesus and the Bible and why nearly every thread on TMB these days has to end up in an attack on Jesus. I’m sure He is not terribly worried - He hasn’t promised to intervene in a fallen world ahead of His return and Christians look forward to the day that He will make all things new.

It must be a turn-off for professing people when TMB is clearly a board predominantly about a church that believes in Jesus.

Ross, if there was no doubt, there would be proof. The person who discovered this proof would have been awarded a Nobel prize, for rendering much of what we know as good science to be worthless. I am quite confident that you have no doubt as to Jesus' existence, but to state your belief as fact is erroneous. Unfortunately it does not matter that "people who believe in Jesus accept the written record of eye witness accounts of Christ after His resurrection". This is confirmation bias and the argument from popularity, in which an belief's popularity has no bearing on its truthfulness. At one time, the bulk of the population thought that the earth was flat. Obviously it doesn't matter how many people believe the earth is flat, it doesn't make it so.

There are standards of evidence, Ross. The 'evidence' provided for the existence of a god (there are thousands to choose from, remember) usually comes back to feelings and personal experience, which are notoriously unreliable. If a Christian 'proves' Yahweh through feelings and personal experience, a Muslim 'proves' Allah through the same and a Hindu 'proves' Vishnu, explain to me how personal experience is a reliable way to determine truth.

As for "no doubt about the historicity of Christ", you are deluding yourself if you think that is the case. Once again, I have full confidence that you have no doubt about the historicity of Christ, but to state as fact that there is no doubt is again erroneous. More and more scholars are coming to the conclusion that Christ is a mythical character.

I presume you are an atheist when it comes to every god but your own and I'm sure you have no trouble admitting that humans have invented gods in the past. Many of these gods/godmen were based on pre-existing myths. Lets do a quick exercise and invent our own godman right now. We'll give him the following characteristics: Born of a virgin on December 25th. Child teacher at age 12. Begins his ministry at age 30. Heals the sick, raises the dead, walks on water, turns water into wine. Has 12 close followers. Is crucified, killed, dead for three days, before resurrecting and ascending into heaven. Who do you think we've based our godman on? Jesus? Nope... We have not used Jesus as a source for any one of the characteristics we've given our godman. They have all been copied from gods/godmen who predate the time of the NT, just the way I suspect the Jesus character was assembled.

Why go to lengths debunking the myth of Christ on TMB? Simple - because as you're more aware than most, real people have been hurt by CSA and the "great healer" is nowhere to be seen. Relying on a fictional character to give any sort of solace here is doing nothing to help. Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life. Teach a man to pray for fish and he'll die of starvation.

I apologise for my tone - it's not meant to be personal; I just get annoyed that religions built on myths facilitate all sorts of harm, of which CSA is one.

The theory that Christ is a myth is widely regarded by scholars/historians as a fringe theory. Its relatively limited number of proponents often hedge the theory by added “but if he existed he has nothing to do with Christianity” - I guess an each-way bet.

Scholars/historians have long concluded that Christ lived and also died on a Roman cross based on the available evidence, both secular and Biblical.

More and more scholars are simply not coming to the conclusion that Christ is a mythical character. You might hope there are or you might embrace the writings of one who does but that is simply confirmation bias.

Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:16:02 GMT -5

Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred.

A belief does not make a fact.

The argument or advantage of logic has limits. Reasonable people are after something more subtler than that.

Even good, intelligent and reasonable people fall prey to wishful thinking.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:19:47 GMT -5

Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred.

Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.

What!!?? How in the world did you ever come to that conclusion based on that hypothesis? Things would improve if humans weren't around and the earth neither needs or requires us to therefore it was made for us? I have no idea how you came to that conclusion I truly don't.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:28:50 GMT -5

For over 4 billion years there were no humans on this planet.The belief that the planet was created for us makes zero sense.

The earth is approx. 4.5 billion years old.There had been other human races (Neanderthals, Denisovan, Homo erectus, and others) for millions or maybe billion of years created by God.

Then 6000 years ago, The Elohim= God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit created Adamic homo sapiens race in the Garden of Eden. The Godhead created Adam and Eve in their Image, so they and their children would RULE and REIGN with them over all of His/their creation in the Universe! Satan deceived Adam and Eve into sins and they lost their crown of life/Immortality and they became mortal beings.

Christ came down from heaven to RESTORE their rightful place with Him as the children of God created in their image to RULE the Universe with the Godhead.

You do realize the Elohim came from an old Sumerian story. Z. Sitchen took it a step further and said they were from Planet X that is supposed to have a very long counter clockwise orbit. The El from the story was just stolen by the Hebrews and they made him their God. The Mormons seem to believe when they die the males all get a planet to populate. It's all a myth though. The difference is the Sumerians knew it and the Hebrews seemed to believe it and make it their creation story.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by Lee on May 25, 2019 13:29:01 GMT -5

The argument or advantage of logic has limits. Reasonable people are after something more subtler than that.

Even good, intelligent and reasonable people fall prey to wishful thinking.

I suppose there are worse sins.

The only difference between wishful thinking and a respectable faith sometimes is the depth, maturity, and intentions of a believer. Think of an entrepreneur. They don't know they'll be successful. But if their motivations are right and if they're authentically connected with their ambition, whether they win or lose, they'll arrive in a better condition.

Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:35:25 GMT -5

For over 4 billion years there were no humans on this planet.The belief that the planet was created for us makes zero sense.

I've seen some of those human fossils with elongated jaws, no forehead, etc. No offense, but they look much more like apes than anything humanoid.

Having a few similarities to modern man does not make them our ancestors. Imo, it takes a greater imagination to accept that they evolved into us than

it does to believe the bible. But everyone chooses to believe what they will.

They were not any different from us in many ways except their looks. We have slowly evolved to look a little different, though some, you can definitely see the resemblance. They walked upright, they buried their dead, they talked, planned hunts together, warred against each other. What about them wasn't 'human'. Do apes talk? It should make you even more clear on the fact that mankind has evolved, not less. But it just goes to show, that anything can be ignored if it's not what is wanted to be believed. Doesn't make it any less true just because some don't believe. It just makes those who don't understand evolution deficient in their understanding of the world in that particular area. There is so much evidence that it is no longer disputable yet people still think they know more than scientists that have studied this for years, because an old book, written by people that had little to no understanding of their world, said so?! Why?

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:44:08 GMT -5

Even good, intelligent and reasonable people fall prey to wishful thinking.

I suppose there are worse sins.

The only difference between wishful thinking and a respectable faith is the depth, maturity, and intentions of a believer. Think of an entrepreneur. They don't know they'll be successful. But if their motivations are right, if they're authentically connected with their ambition, whether they win or lose, they'll arrive in a better condition.

Or I'm sure there are worse, yes. The difference between belief in succeeding at something that has a tangible evidence of existing and having a probability for success vs a belief that there are gods, that these gods have a list of things you can or cannot do, and if you believe one of them died for you, then you get to go to a heavenly afterlife, is huge. The problem with forgoing evidence to base beliefs on is the probability that you will also use that reasoning in other areas of your life where it could get you into trouble. A good example of that is people who believe their god doesn't want them to have blood transfusions and withhold life sustaining blood from their offspring based on beliefs for which there is zero evidence.

In the end there will only be three things that matter. How much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of the things not meant for you. The BuddhaMorality comes not from a book, or a guy up in the sky, but from the idea that how you treat people matters, because how people feel matters. Unknown.

Shoutbox

wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...Feb 26, 2020 22:04:28 GMT -5

ant_rotten: Does anyone else constantly have a pop up saying “do you want to download index.html” when using TMB desktop version? This happens to me both on my iPhone and iPad.. Feb 26, 2020 19:56:33 GMT -5

wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?Feb 20, 2020 6:03:05 GMT -5