drunknsubmrnr wrote:The entire CF woul like the answer to that question.

I'd say the CF role for the next 30-40 years will be contributing to NATO/UN operations like we saw in Libya, Rwanda, and to a larger scale in the Balkans. Large CF Army ops lasting ten years or more like we saw in Afghanistan are unlikely - we don't have the kit or the political/public will to do that again.

How do the F-35s fit this picture? I'm not sure they do. 50+ new built 4th generation fighters still in production would do the trick for the next 20+ years, such as the F/A-18E/F, F-15E, or
Eurofighter. Heck, we could probably fulfill
our NORAD commitments nicely with the SAAB Gripen, F-16IN Super Viper or HAL
Tejas.

As for the navy for the next 30-40 years, it's going to be search and rescue (mostly alongside the Coast Guard and RCAF), emergency assistance (like we saw in Haiti), protection of natural resources (oil, fish, gas, pipeline to China, etc...), smuggling/piracy/drugs/human trafficking interception and contributing to NATO/UN interventions in the third/developing world.

I'd also like to see the focus on the RCN move to Esquimalt and the Arctic from Halifax.

Mikeh wrote:So rather than solely frigates with the odd destroyer perhaps the government should look at some kind of helicopter/assault ships along the lines of a Mistal,Ocean or Tarawa?

How about something like a Absalon class flexible support ship?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...command_and_support_ship
With a landing craft bay, capability to support 200 troops or a mobile hospital (Also ideal for DART deployments), moderate crew size, good endurance and speed, two EH-101s, Sea Sparrow, Harpoon, CIWS, stealth tech design and modern sensors, these ships seem ideal for the roles I've suggested above. Also the Absalon class is only 20ft longer than the Halifax class ships, which would help in the dockyard.

I think the Absalon is a good idea, but it's very slow and under-armed. If there was a design that combined the characteristics of the Absalon and it's destroyer cousin Huitfelt, that would work well for the RCN.

Air bursts will not create "Areas of Doom" - Survival under Atomic Attack

drunknsubmrnr wrote:I'd want SM-2 and APAR, since we're unlikely to get dedicated air defense ships.

I can't imagine an environment where we'd need that. In every single RCN combat operation in the past 20 years our warships have operated either with total allied air superiority, such as GW1 or in ops where there was no air threat, such as piracy patrols.

Worst case, it's 2021 and North Korea invades South Korea. South Korea asks for UN assistance, we send in our new warships. They join a USN CBG off Washington state and travel to the Korean coast. There is zero chance of any North Korean MiGs getting anywhere close to the Canadian warships.

More likely case, it's 2020 and we're part of a small op enforcing sanctions against some sub-saharan despot, let's assume its Nigeria after an Islamic Fundamentalist government takes over. HMCS Absalon is operating alone near the coast. Our warship's radar picks up an incoming force of two Chengdu J-7 fighters and three Aeromacchi MB-339 light attack aircraft. The J-7s each carry two 500 lb unguided bombs. The three MB-339s each carry two AGM-65 Maverick laser guided bombs (this assumes that Nigeria's MB-339s have been upgraded to Eritrean spec). After challenging the incoming aircraft (J-7 at HA, MB-339s at LA) and receiving no reply, Absalon launches two Sea Sparrows at each of the J-7s. Two aircraft splashed. The three MB-339s continue to close at low level. Absalon fires two more Sea Sparrows, one miss, one hit. The other two MB-339s close-in and climb to launch their AGM-65s. Absalon launches her countermeasure decoys to disrupt attempts at laser bomb guidance. One Maverick is dropped, and quickly killed by CIWS. The other CIWS kills another MB-339. The last MB-339 runs for home, chased by a final Sea Sparrow.

AGM-65 actually out ranges Sea Sparrow, even ESSM fired from an Absalon. A Huitfelt ESSM would be different, due to its AAW capabilities. In your example, theyd simply fire the AGM-65 outside Sparrow range and then go home.

SM-2 is also a very good ASuW weapon, to the point that there's no point carrying Harpoon if you have SM-2.

Air bursts will not create "Areas of Doom" - Survival under Atomic Attack

Yeah for that 11 billion we could probably put off building ships for at least the ten years while going thru the motions of pretending to do something.We've created a nearly completely dysfunctional procurement system. This "System" can be brought to a screeching halt by any one of hundreds of bureaucrats from any one of a half a dozen or more ministries by simply uttering the words "I have a problem with that". Most of these civil servants and ministries have little or no direct involvement with DND. We've been unable to provide combat boots for our people at least twice in the last 15 years for Pete's sake, for a G- 8 country that's fricking silly not to mention just plain embarrassing ! I suspect unless there is some sort of radical surgery performed I doubt we'll see a hull in the water before 2020.

That was during the Cold War, when we needed improved ASW capabilities for the coming war with the Warsaw Pact. Now, with no foreseeable enemy or an uncertain mission, any warships today will be low on the priority list.

Actually, I'd prefer to see a slow build anyway, as part of a national ship building strategy, so that the yards are open for 20+ years. Now if we can just get some civilian ships built in Canada. When was the last ocean going ship built in Canada?

If we're going to be continue to associate with the our American neighbors might I suggest The Gibbs & Cox design offered up to our friends down under . It offers you two Helicopters per ship and a decrease in crew size compared to either the Tribals and the Halifax class. Not to mention the ability to integrate with very little or no problems with US Navy Task groups. I also agree that we need to do a slow build. We could build the first batch of say four to six as placements for the Tribals and then every year after the initial six are launched we could build one or two a year until we've replaced the City class. I think it offers the most bang for the buck.