No. I like the idea of Haren, but he's a one-year rental. I think we could take a shot on getting a couple of prospects for Perez. I know Haren's a proven Major League pitcher, but he doesn't help us to the playoffs this year. Theoretically, we could acquire Haren to trade him at the deadline and hope to turn it into Perez for a couple of prospects, but who knows if that would work. Not to mention, Haren supposedly has 12 teams on a no-trade list. Wouldn't shock me if we were one of them.

Only way I'd do it is if we were getting Peter Bourjos back for something. We've got time to see what he develops into. Was worth almost 5 wins in 2011 between his offense and his defense. Had 49 extra base hits and stole 22 bags. Has 19 career assists from CF.

Clearly overshadowed by Trout this season, but I'd love to take a flier on him. If the Angels are willing to move him in the deal, I'd be willing to move Perez for rental Haren.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

I would if we were a starter away from contention, he was more than a year rental, or if we had more time to see what kind of a market would develop for Perez, so that way if we didnt like what teams would give up for him, we could take a flier on Haren hoping he would bring in the value.

But its a moot point now since he is free agent now. Hey now we can just go sign him and give him money.......

The Cubs are the one that pulled out in the very late stages, after Marmol gave his OK to the deal. I'm wondering if they didn't like something they saw in the medical reports about Haren's back. It's not like Epstein to pass on a live arm that they could flip for something else come the trading deadline. Marmol wasn't going to be that guy since he's got major control issues.

Anyone looking at him as a FA will be doing an awful lot of poking and prodding of his back to see if it will hold up to a 3 year $30M type deal...

I'd have to say yes. Upton's numbers are pretty legit. The bump he gets for being in a hitter-happy environment like Chase Field is somewhat negated by playing 1/3 of his road games in SF/SD/LA and facing a lot of good pitching.

Right handed bat with some power who can steal you 20 bases and solves a corner OF question. Not sure we can pass.

I like Asdrubal, but Upton's definitely a better player.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

The Reds think they are at the edge of a title. They need a LF, or a CF, and a leadoff hitter, and they need to figure out if Aroldis Chapman is a starter like he was when they signed him 3 yrs ago. He's going into yr 4 of 6.

I know Choo has really looked great over the yrs vs. Cincinnati. Is there a minor league/major league package that would appear viable to the Indians for Choo and Perez? Perez would allow their starting staff to go Cueto/Latos/Chapman/Bailey/Arroyo- wow. Could Choo lead off for them?

Didn't Cincy supposedly have interest in Choo at the trading deadline? If so, you'd have to assume the interest is still there. The problem is, regardless of potential destinations, you have to think Choo's value is a little diminished from what it was then. The Indians missed a big opportunity when they didn't unload him at the deadline. If a good enough offer never materialized, well, that's one thing. Personally, though, I tend to think they were too afraid of the potential backlash trading him would cause and were hoping they'd somehow sneak back into the race (all logic and reason be damned). We'll likely never know the full story, of course, but it was a huge mistake if there were indeed good offers for Choo left on the table.

So, now any trading partner gets a year of control, not a year and a half. There's a hit in his value. If they hang on and deal him even one day after the season starts, his value takes an even more severe hit because his new team wouldn't be eligible to draft pick compensation per the new CBA, making teams even less likely to part with top propects when they won't get comped for his free agency. And this team is delusional if they are actually planning on holding onto him at least to start the season. Good manager or not, we're going nowhere next year. Trade him now while there's still value there...it's gone down since July and will only continue to do so.

googleeph2 wrote:The Reds think they are at the edge of a title. They need a LF, or a CF, and a leadoff hitter, and they need to figure out if Aroldis Chapman is a starter like he was when they signed him 3 yrs ago. He's going into yr 4 of 6.

I know Choo has really looked great over the yrs vs. Cincinnati. Is there a minor league/major league package that would appear viable to the Indians for Choo and Perez? Perez would allow their starting staff to go Cueto/Latos/Chapman/Bailey/Arroyo- wow. Could Choo lead off for them?

I remember hearing a lot about some Cingrani kid, but I think he was a reliever either in college or in the minors who looked solid then just took off this year. He might be the pitcher with the most upside but is risky.

Also just thinking outside the box, what about Choo, Santanna, Perez for Cingranni, Mesoraco, Hamilton, and Stephenson.

I would prefer to deal off each piece seperately to get more, but for some reason if Cincy would part with Hamilton in this deal, Arizona needs a SS so maybe a deal involving Trevor Bauer. Maybe they would go for a blue chipper even if he is possibly a few years away or they could use him to flip him to Texas to get either Andrus or Profar in their own deal.

you guys should click on the link in Nino's article about Cabrera and the Cardinals, and read the user comments. Its interesting to see what they think of Asdrubal, he is like Derek Jeter to them, most seem to be salivating.

Then let's make their wildest dreams come true and do this thing. As an Indians' fan, I hate saying it, but for God's sake, this team is truly fooling itself if it has any illusions of contending this year or even the next. It needs a talent infusion in the worst way. Let's quit slapping band-aids on the problem and calling it a cure. The truth be told, I'd be more excited about next year if we were rebuilding...at least it would give us something to look forward to more than another sub .500 team with nothing on the horizon.

If they want him and are willing to pay, do it before they find alternatives.

googleeph2 wrote:Billy Hamilton is untouchable, IMO. It would be like the Tribe unloading Lindor.

I thought the same thing. Would absolutely love to have him, but we'd pretty much use up our major trade chips for something that doesn't fit one of our most pressing needs (starting pitching, right-handed power), too.

I'd like Al to weigh in on this, but I think you guys might be overvaluing Billy Hamilton.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good prospect and obviously a good base stealer. And that is valuable to a degree. But I'm not sure he is a top flight prospect as much as an interesting anomoly. ANd I absolutely would NOT trade fransisco Lindor for him.

Lindor is much more valuable IMO.

Lindor is an incredible prospect right now at the most valuable position on the field. Hamilton is a fast guy who can get on base and AFAIK a pretty average outfileder.

Would you rather have potential Ozzie Smith, or potential Vince Coleman?

I have heard reports off an on he is untouchable but I dont think he is as untouchable now as he may have been at the beginning of the season. I do think the Reds would trade him if it solved a need. Emotional exits from playoff rounds sometimes have that effect. Plus they still have Cozart who is good and under team control for a while.

I also dont think he is on the same level as Lindor. hamilton is still a great talent biut it seems overall that Lindor has more tools. Hamilton is fast....like crazy fast, like Willie Mays Hays fast but that is pretty much all he has. Doesnt really hit for power or a high average, so if he cant carry over his plate discipline , he is pretty much useless. I mean he could be the next Kenny Lofton who knows.

As for trading for him, I would If I knew I could flip him to another team to acquire more prospect arms like a Trevor Bauer.

motherscratcher wrote:I'd like Al to weigh in on this, but I think you guys might be overvaluing Billy Hamilton.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good prospect and obviously a good base stealer. And that is valuable to a degree. But I'm not sure he is a top flight prospect as much as an interesting anomoly. ANd I absolutely would NOT trade fransisco Lindor for him.

Lindor is much more valuable IMO.

Lindor is an incredible prospect right now at the most valuable position on the field. Hamilton is a fast guy who can get on base and AFAIK a pretty average outfileder.

Would you rather have potential Ozzie Smith, or potential Vince Coleman?

I think, in the true spirit of people talking about prospects anytime and anywhere, that there's a better than average chance that people are over valuing both Hamilton and Lindor.

motherscratcher wrote:I'd like Al to weigh in on this, but I think you guys might be overvaluing Billy Hamilton.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good prospect and obviously a good base stealer. And that is valuable to a degree. But I'm not sure he is a top flight prospect as much as an interesting anomoly. ANd I absolutely would NOT trade fransisco Lindor for him.

Lindor is much more valuable IMO.

Lindor is an incredible prospect right now at the most valuable position on the field. Hamilton is a fast guy who can get on base and AFAIK a pretty average outfileder.

Would you rather have potential Ozzie Smith, or potential Vince Coleman?

I think, in the true spirit of people talking about prospects anytime and anywhere, that there's a better than average chance that people are over valuing both Hamilton and Lindor.

Everyone always overvalues prospects, which is why I liked the spirit (if not the execution) of the Ubaldo deal. At the same time, club control of a guy like Mike Trout is priceless. Not saying Lindor or Hamilton turn into Trout, but that's what clubs and fans dream on.

As far as the original point goes, yes, I think Hamilton is pretty close to "untouchable." I see absolutely no chance that he's involved in a deal for a decent OF with a 1-yr deal (Choo) unless it's part of the framework of a much larger deal. He's got the potential to be a faster version of Kenny Lofton, if you can believe that. Took huge strides forward with the bat last year, and while he's just learning to be an OF he projects as better than average simply due to his amazing speed. Would I trade Lindor for him? Probably not, as Lindor's defense is worth more to me that Hamilton's speed. But you'd have a lot of Reds fans saying they wouldn't trade Hamilton for Lindor. They're close enough that the argument can be made for either.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Rather than Kenny Lofton is Hamilton more like Juan Pierre or Brett Butler?

Playing here is the closest thing to heaven. Really, I mean it's amazing to be in a place where the fans truly cherish their football team and stick behind them win or lose. We players love them, too. I feel a sense of accomplishment playing here, we are a special breed of football players with a great opportunity." ~ tOSU LB Brian Rolle

Yeah, I don't know the relative potential between any two hyped prospects- I come here to learn such stuff. But one thing I do know is that the Reds regard Hamilton as much as we regard Lindor. We are waiting for the next wave, as the dangling carrot for us fans. The Reds are good, but have jagged, gaping holes in the outfield and at leadoff. They are just waiting for a Hamilton type to arrive.

Al (or whomever), is it crazy to wonder if the Reds would be interested in a Choo/Perez deal? Would Choo have value in the leadoff spot? Perez would allow them to move Chapman (back) to SP.

googleeph2 wrote:Yeah, I don't know the relative potential between any two hyped prospects- I come here to learn such stuff. But one thing I do know is that the Reds regard Hamilton as much as we regard Lindor. We are waiting for the next wave, as the dangling carrot for us fans. The Reds are good, but have jagged, gaping holes in the outfield and at leadoff. They are just waiting for a Hamilton type to arrive.

Al (or whomever), is it crazy to wonder if the Reds would be interested in a Choo/Perez deal? Would Choo have value in the leadoff spot? Perez would allow them to move Chapman (back) to SP.

I could see them being interested in that package, but honestly not sure for what. I think Choo established his ability to hit leadoff last year, and while I think Chapman should just stick in the bullpen at this point because he's clearly comfortable there, I wouldn't put it past Dusty Baker to jerk him around and have him try to start again. As far as specific names though and whether or not one of those names would be Hamilton, I just don't know. They did show a propensity to move their kids for established vets with their trade with San Diego last spring, so it would be worth exploring.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

I was one of those who wanted the Reds' Yonder Alonso last year. He developed some with SD, and I still like his RH bat.

I agree on preferring Chapman to stay in the pen. He is in year 4 of 6 and his contract is not over-valued for the closer role. And I don't think he's used a third pitch much in 3+yrs. But the reds keep talking about thinking of making him a starter again.

Lots of baseball people think closers are nothing special, vs. starters. You agree?

Few Diamondbacks fans in the MLBTradeRumors comments mentioning that they could see a deal involving Archie Bradley for Asdrubal Cabrera. Little far away for my liking, but, has serious upside potential. Taken one spot in front of Lindor in the 2011 draft.

Not sure he'd actually be on the table, or if we'd want to wait on a 20-year-old kid probably pitching in High-A next year, but it's something to talk about while nothing's going on.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

googleeph2 wrote:The Reds think they are at the edge of a title. They need a LF, or a CF, and a leadoff hitter, and they need to figure out if Aroldis Chapman is a starter like he was when they signed him 3 yrs ago. He's going into yr 4 of 6.

I know Choo has really looked great over the yrs vs. Cincinnati. Is there a minor league/major league package that would appear viable to the Indians for Choo and Perez? Perez would allow their starting staff to go Cueto/Latos/Chapman/Bailey/Arroyo- wow. Could Choo lead off for them?

motherscratcher wrote:Any chance we can convince Dayton Moore that Masty is still "front line" pitching?

Dayton Moore could be convienced into trading Jeff Francouer for a case of stadium mustard...he could help our OF defence and sponsor a bacon-oriented giveaway night.

"Cocaine is a hell of a drug" - Originated from a famous skit in Dave Chappelle's "Chappelle's Show". The skit would portray Rick James, usually high on cocaine, preforming doing crazy and stupid things, such as smacking Charlie Murphy in the face. Rick James would frequently explain away his actions by saying "Cocaine is a hell of a drug".