Squad updates are slowly killing the game.

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Let's start this off by saying I have been playing Squad from the get go, I am a backer that bought the game mid-late 2015 before it released on steam. I have been playing consistently over the years and would consider myself a veteran player, I don't have the most experience out of all the player base but I'd say I have a high experience level. For those that know who I am which is probably very few of the player base would know I love the game, base off my time in game, playing, admining, competing (for a limited time). I have seen it all from a clan perspective, as both a leader and player and from a non-clan/ community member. Mainly player in the OCE region but with some time in EU and NA. From the early versions of the game till now the game has progressively limited its potential and current customers. At the moment around 4 groups exist being casual, veteran, retired and new/ potential buyers. What I'm saying won't reflect everyone in all groups but should be relevant in some way to all.

For those that have been in the squad community for a time will know that there are a lot of opinions being thrown around from all genre of players and due to the actions of a few in the past I can understandably see why the developers have chosen to accommodated the players that wish for the game to slow down to a almost complete stop. With previous versions I saw a mix of game play types across a variety of servers, all genre of players were accommodated for because the game was open to interpretation and mostly how you wanted to play come down to which server you decided to play on. Although most of these servers are still around with much the same rules and guidelines the game play style that has been slowly implemented means that those wishing to play others styles don't have a choice anymore. Joining any server limits you to the one and only play style. This style has been reinforced by major changes that include but are not limited to, bleed, cap rushes, vehicles, fobs/ deployments, stamina, suppression, gun play and bloody persistent ammo. While some of the updates were for the good, others have completely killed some player styles.

The game as it is does not reward players that show initiative, being on attack does not reward you and for the most part if you want to win a game the easiest way to do so is to "park the bus" on a defence flag. Bleed was the major factor change to this new meta. Before its removal players had the opportunity to show greater initiative, trying new techniques and experimenting with attacking an objective, whether that be a cache, flag or fob. Without costing the team more tickets then it was worth spending to attack. Even though flag caps are now worth a lot more in an attempt to even out the loss of bleed this hasn't changed how people play. For the player group that liked to keep attacking, this means that they were shunned from the player base. Obviously players still attack but those that are left, are from the player base that like to takes things more realistically. With the games having 2 hours to play out this means that most of the time only a couple of flags are actually focused on and maps with large amounts of flags are left largely unexplored. Asking the question why bother have some many flags when all you need is a few. Also this leaves me wondering why time and effort is put into building large 5x5 maps when on a regular basis only 80% of it is actually going to be used.

My point on attacking to a degree goes hand in hand with cap rushes, as it used to be the game wasn't fun for anyone involved when a team that was experience rushed first/ second caps. Most of the time defending teams were left completely out of position leaving the game to be over sometimes in the matter of 15 minutes. How the developers changed the capping system was great, it allowed those that still wished to rush in the game without ending a game in short periods. This changed although limiting some players didn't push them completely out of the game and found a way to accommodate all. Whoever at OWI thought of and implemented this system I applaud you.

Realistic vehicles are not a viable part in squad while other new changes are put in place. Over time vehicles have slowly been buffed to absolute god tier level. With the game hopefully someday making its way to the promised 50v50 players this will leave 90% them on some maps relatively useless against amour. Tanks and other armored vehicles have way too much health and I believe that this has now been put in place because players have forgotten that they should not be used as melee range. Tank barrels are not used as blunt weapons to slap the enemy around from a few meters away. Vehicles are long range weapons used to support the capture of flags or engage other vehicles at long range, buffing them with ridiculous amounts of health does not help anyone. With the implementation of persistent ammo this leaves most infantry completely useless against amour. The average amounts of anti-tanks kits in a squad is 2, with the exception of the heavy anti-tank class. With the current health of vehicles this means that even trucks can drive around safely without the worry of being destroyed, let alone MBTs. Now that FOBs can be deactivated from 30 meters away this means vehicles will be able to drive straight to them and unload a force of troops rendering the FOB useless. Taking major objectives like this should take more skill and precision then driving straight at it head first without a worry in the world. While health is the main problem at the moment with vehicles, ticket loss is also a factor to be considered. In the unlikely situation where infantry can muster up the strength to destroy a vehicle without allied vehicle assistance, they do not lose a great amount of tickets. The loss of a MBT should be a major loss as it can affect the game greatly, at times more than a well place FOB. Yet it only costs 15 tickets on maps that have 500 tickets per team.

Where to get started on the horrific idea of persistent ammo. Already I spoke about anti-tank kits inability to kill armored vehicles that have huge amounts of health, persistent ammo hurts these kits further. Spawning on a rally or FOB that cant get supplies because of a MBT in the area leaves the team with nothing. No hope for the infantry to have some effect on vehicles, with the eventual loss of a flag or FOB as they don't respawn with any ammo. I'm going to keep bringing it up as this is all I'm talking about but this new change slows the gameplay down. For those that like it, go nuts but for those that wish to play the game differently, they have yet again been shunned by the developers. Obviously persistent ammo doesn't just affect one kit but all, all kits have been left with very little to continue a fight of any effort after the first major engagement. As the updated suppression system has been added ammo is needed more than ever but using it means that you are then useless. The 2 changes in a perfect world look great on paper but in reality they counteract each other. Contradiction of these changes gets me thinking if anyone knows what is actually going on.

Emplacements and well placed FOBs should influence the team greatly as they do but increasing the limit of construction/ ammo points to 20,000 is not necessary. In a average game 1-2 squads want to build massive FOBs, that's ok as long as it helps the team. Building a super FOB 600m away from any major objective with a full squad and use of 1 logistics truck however, is baffling. The game is marketed as a team game, any SLs that have dealt with players wasting assets know that usually they are left completely helpless unless a admin is around. Increasing the points on a FOB reinforces that it's completely ok to leave the team without 25% of its players and down logistics vehicle. Obviously the developers don't put these construables in the game to not be used but some medium ground has to be found. Yet again only one player style is favored in this all, shunning those that don't feel this is crucial to teamwork left wanting. Mortars and TOWs are a great change to the game that allowed all player styles to enjoy FOBs and constructables while still being able to effectively help the team.

Skill gaps in the game are becoming less defined as they used to be on a individual scale. Suppression changes lower the skill gap yet again, with the removal of friendly effects and increase of enemy effects. I feel as if the way it was before v12 was sufficient, friendlies should be able to suppress you, this game is a realistic shooter not a kindergarten. The updates to suppression have made players less skilled as they no longer need to be situationally aware. In a fight between 2 teams the better shooters should have an advantage but in this scenario it comes down to whoever can puts more rounds down range. Yet again for those players that like the challenge of winning fire fights have been left shunned by the developers. Those that like the game this way are again usually part of one play style only. One change that is appropriate is that the larger the caliber, the round the larger the suppression effect, in that aspect it's not all bad news.

As with all the updated effects, changes can be hard to judge without proper testing this does not exclude stamina. This has been changed too many times to count over the years but yet again its favoring one play style. Lets not forget that this is a realistic shooter the troops you are controlling ingame are meant to be modeled off professional soldiers. From my understanding some of the developers are ex-military with understanding of troop stamina in reality. As to are some players ex and current serving military from all over the world which I think is great. Something I can't understand though is the complete inability of troops in game to run more than 150 meters without dying of exhaustion. Sprinting this distance in full gear isn't fun and the way a sway system was put into the gun play after running was a great idea but it doesn't take as long as it does ingame to regain a bit of stamina. Adrenaline takes control, troops can react faster, run longer and fight harder because of it. An increase in the stamina system is needed in my view. Professional soldiers shouldn't need to take a 2 minute nap so they can run for less then 150 meters in the midst of combat.

I could probably keep going with other changes to the game but I think these are some of the major points. As I have said there are many different player genres in the game, none of these groups are wrong. even though from what I have said it might seem that way. Changes that are made to the game should accommodate all players to some degree. I understand that in part the game is a updated replica of Project Reality. But all I have to point out are the player statistics of that game and this game in the past. Yes Squad has been slowly growing its player base which is great to see and I hope it continues for many years to come. Emphasis on slowly. Yes I know the company is small compared to other large gaming corporations but the modding community is also around. Hopefully in the future these mods will be introduced into the game, for those that haven't tried some of them get on steam and have a look around. Some I would love to see and understand that may be introduced are factions mods, maps (old bf2), game modes (zombies), equipment (helicopters). From what I have heard and read around, OWI are involved with many of these mods already which is great to see and can't wait for these additions.

Basically what I'm getting at is that don't limit your player genres, doing so just limits you customer base. Allow the servers to set changes to the game that way all players can find somewhere to play the game they want to play. If OWI aren't willing to give that much freedom to the servers then major changes need to be put in place to accommodate the majority not single out one play style. Other games in the past have done this and fallen completely on their own swords, look at DayZ for example. I don't feel that the leaders from some groups have been representing incorrectly and are spending too much time brown nosing and not giving a no bullshit response, those few that do know who I'm talking about. I haven't spoken up in the past so I guess I'm at fault as well for the current state of the game as much as the next person. Saying all this I don't like people that just outright complain and don't bring ideas to the table so Ill express some in dot point below.

- Get rid of persistent ammo, in my opinion was a complete waste of time and effort. Speaking with many players before this was introduced and a large percentage didn't like or want this change.

- Stamina needs an increase or perhaps a adrenaline system should be put in play so that if you are in contact your soldier can fight better. then when out of combat or traveling large distances on foot you have increased stamina degradation.

- Vehicle health lowered and tickets increase to punish those player that use them incorrectly.

- Giving more power the the servers to create a games that suit certain player types.

- Suppression effects lowered. Comparing to PS which is very similar game in many aspects which has a horrific suppression system and fault to why the player count is so low.

- Greater spread of flags on maps, this allows players to experience more of the maps and gives SLs more room to maneuver for an assault.

- Bring back a bleed effect in some aspect even if very little. Attacking players are given no reward for showing initiative.

- Addition of major mods.

- Differing game modes, addition of random flags is yet to be tested so time will tell but maybe something along the line of moving flags. The battlefield changes so should flags.

- Game mode idea: Capture and Hold: flags spawn randoming teams fight to cap and hold for certain amount of time, once successfully held of time limit they gain 1 point. First team to 3 points wins. Flags disappear once they have been capped and held. New flags spawn randomly.

To finish off I'm not saying that people playing the game slowly is a bad thing but it's about welcoming all and growing the player base for all players types not just 1. Aslo forgive my english skills I was never talented in that way.

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Vehicle health lowered and tickets increase to punish those player that use them incorrectly

100% agree, vehicle tickets should be increased to push toward more correct usage of support assets.. that MRAP people use as a taxi has a valuable .50 mounted on it and could be used more effectively in a rear or flank position in support of infantry capturing a point. Even the transport truck while unarmed might seem disposable, but it can carry 2 squads effectively moving half your team in some games at speed across the map..

2 hours ago, Wellsy28 said:

Greater spread of flags on maps

again, 100% agree with all the work put into making the maps as pretty as they are, why should we limit ourselves to the middle when we could have a purpose for visiting the wider flanks and use the entirety of the land provided..

2 hours ago, Wellsy28 said:

persistent ammo

I tend to disagree on this one, i can see the point you make but on the other hand I feel limiting ammunition will put more emphasis on supply/logistics and people won't just build random FOBs in the middle of nowhere if they have to keep the logistics route secure and keep the FOB in supply constantly it will bring a more realistic aspect that the game is currently missing.. I feel in it's current state it's like a more immersive version of Battlefield where people are constantly giving up to resupply.. I'm just as guilty as the people I'm referring to as a medic in most games when I run out of bandages I'll opt to respawn as most medics do just to refill my bandages at a rally point.. I feel dirty when i do it too because I'm coming from an Arma 3 milsim background where the medics have to actually bandage different limbs etc instead of just rubbing their hand over people and magically making them feel better LOL. Anyway point is I feel having persistent ammo will greatly increase the quality of gameplay in Squad.

2 hours ago, Wellsy28 said:

Building a super FOB 600m away from any major objective with a full squad and use of 1 logistics truck

as I said about my background in arma 3, anyone else that came from a similar background or even a military background will tell you 600m isn't a long run, the maps are what 4x4km2 on average? something like that i forget.. that's like a playing space of 16km2.. just saying.. I know it might be inconvenient to have to run 600m with the current stamina system but that's not an issue with distance more the stamina as you also suggested.

As for the FOBs themselves, a slight increase to the current capacity would be more than welcome once the persistent ammo is in play as supplies will run out far quicker than they currently do but when it comes to vehicles being able to disable the FOB within 30m hot dropping troops and effectively destroying the FOB, that all comes down to common sense more or less..

If you build a super FOB with have massive walls and emplacements surrounding it, you're presenting a target worthy of attacking, a significant fortification that will hinder the enemy if they lost it.. The vehicles effectively shouldn't be able to get any where near a super fob if said emplacements were manned. I.E I've seen it in multiple games people build these really cool looking setups with high walls and wire and they invest a good 45min into building them then run away leaving the place undefended and cry when the team loses the FOB.. lol.. - just makes sense to me personally.. I don't think people understand the concept of a Forward Operating Base - It's not an autonomous anti-everything turret with motion/thermal sensors it needs to be defended I'm just saying what I've noticed in my own games.. half the issues in this game aren't the game itself it's the people playing the game that are the issue lol! We play it how we want to play it because there's no documentation stating otherwise the whole game is open 'somewhat' to interpretation in it's Alpha state.. As you said yourself, there are multiple playstyles in Squad and I agree they should encourage more diversity but again technically it's still an Alpha we haven't even got tanks in mainstream yet I have faith it'll get better with time. Though how much time, I couldn't say ahahah

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Note I did not read all ofyour post it is very long!..headings would be good! So I apologise now if anything is out of context or misrepresenting ....(I seem to have to add that disclaimer now as I have a few followers watching my every post to catch me out )

I was disappointed at the drop in ticket cost for vehicles but in all honesty it doesnt matter that much, the game is not setup for vehicles to be important as there is an unlimited supply, albeit delayed spawn. But the good thing about it however is the lessened impact from vehicle trolls when they do lose that vehicle. Still prefer to see vehicles as a reward for a squad doing something positive rather than the ability just to take one (apart from the start of the round). Increasing the cost of tickets would not ensure that players care anymore about the vehicles...they wont... those that use them well will already know how to do it...those that just drive them into an enemy fob will always do that because, hey 1 in 40 times it might work and they find it fun.

I also agree and have mentioned in other posts but take a slightly different view, that positive action is not rewarded but more so.. poor play or reckless play is not punished and has more of an impact on the team... lose that vehicle and it costs tickets and the team loses an asset for a period plus that fire support... yet the same players can just spawn at main and take another.

The new maps feel really big and a couple of rounds there were some great long range fire fights and it was a lot slower, for me this is good and tbh I think more realistic if thats what you are going for. But agree that a wider spread of flags and use of the whole map should be available, although some maps I like as they are designed to get you into action quickly and be more close quarter fights.

I like the persistent ammo, whilst I think it wont have much effect for riflemen as you will always spawn in with a limited supply, the best thing about it is stopping the 'i need this kit now' spawn.. i.e tank nearby.. wait Ill just die and respawn as a LAT, this was janky so now the SL really needs to ensure his squad makeup has the right mix. The resupply by riflemen is great but would have preferred to see the medic carrying a bandage resupply bag rather than the riflemen with both.

The one thing that is far to easy now is taking down FOBs ... stopping that spawn with 3 players is as easy as finding a rally.. I get the reason behind it and agree no more fire fights, but id change it to requiring the hab or radio to be blown up by a vehicle or demolition (yes would need that class added) ..rather than just dug down...

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I'm all for a Combat Engineer/ Sapper class even a heavily restricted one like the HAT role would work for me, having the team work together to protect the engineer while they set a charge on a FOB/HAB would be make for some awesome battles. Could even give the guy a bonus to construction speed and/or vehicle repairs maybe? Definitely a kit worth thinking about anyway.

3 hours ago, embecmom said:

Increasing the cost of tickets would not ensure that players care anymore about the vehicles.

This more or less reinforces what I said about the people being the issue and not the game lol. I can't think of any solution or countermeasure against people not giving a crap about the assets

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"From the early versions of the game till now the game has progressively limited its potential and current customers."

Honestly, you make a lot of great points (most of which I disagree with) but from a writing standpoint your thesis statement is incomplete as it doesn't articulate the claim of the title.

That issue aside, regardless of all the additional information you provided you left out what I consider a crucial component regarding the playership or lack thereof. And that would be the high level of competition within the fps marketplace.

Certainly there are other factors regarding the game itself that cause it to lack player retention, especially the time factor of the development process. However, it's my opinion that there are simply too many other highly polished titles by big name studios that offer players instant gratification and a more viseral eye candy experience.

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I really respect the time and effort you put into stating your position. I'm one of the few in the camp that like the direction the game is going in (while not agreeing with everything), I can say I'm on board enough to continue playing. I find it fits my play-style. The other thing I would mention given the outline from kick-starter is that some of this was expected.

This is largely why I bought into the game, and also understanding that it will not hit the expectation immediately. Meaning that the development will be an on-going iterative process. The nature of an iterative development process means that there are stages of the build phase that are temporary (hold-over foundation), in order to reach the next build phase. Systems must have cohesion and are often built and tested in stages.

There were even times in forums where there were debates about known broken mechanics, some liked it broken mechanics others didn't and wanted a change. There lies the rub, in an iterative build process it is easy to perceive a build stage as the intended end result, notwithstanding changes due to unexpected results.

In the end, my opinion is that Squad is a niche game (even in current state), and when finally complete will find a core audience old and new that will dedicate hours of play time for what offers them. What it offers me is levels of fun, immersion and comedy which I'm hard pressed to find in other FPS games, while providing "organic" teamwork.

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The only thing i really want is longer vehicle respawn times and high ticket costs. If i blow up a tank i don't want to see it back within 10 minutes.

That kinda takes away the reward for your team of taking it out, and for your own team the vehicle becomes less vital to keep alive.

As for most of these points, it will still depend on which server you play on, so far in the test servers for V12 i'm having a lot of fun feeling like a newb again with all the changes they've made to the gameplay.

I do have a question for the OP tho... With the V11 rally mechanics, do you care about dying at all? Like, when fighting over a flag, do you not get tired of the constant meatgrinder (same for FOBs) that takes place?

In V12 i've found the combat to be much more unique overall, mainly because i'm not instantly in action every single second of the match with bullets flying everywhere at all times. In the tests i've actually had most of the squad die out without giving up, the rally was quite far away and with the limited ammo it would only mean more walking across open desert. So we waited untill we got revived, and by that way took the cap, since the enemy squad probably thought we were all gone.

There are some actual moments of peace before suddenly hell breaks loose around the squad, which for me, is what no other game can do. So yeah, basically, do you actually like the constant action at every single second without ever growing tired of it?

Edited November 3 by Guan_Yu007

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Maybe a new class is required to help with the changes to the game, in time you would think a few more will be added. At the moment most of what I spoke about can easily be fixed without new content, even though we all love it.

Games like Squad have always had a limited player base due to time between interesting game play and some steep learning curves, but limiting the player base even further seems like a really bad idea to me. All you have to do is look at average player numbers of Squad from steam release to now. Nov 2015 average players a day was about 3,500 and Oct 2018 is very close to this number. Considering all the new content, free weekends, sales, and other updates you would assume that the average player number be higher at least. I don't believe that players arn't coming back because of replay value because that's basically all the game is, I put it down to the now limited play styles which accommodates fewer players, compared to past patches.

I know OWI isn't the biggest gaming company in the industry but the content that has been release so far is top notch in my books, if people who play games are basing their reviews off game looks then I'm not sure they really know anything about gaming.

Obviously testing as now and in the past has been held before full release to judge player reactions and make changes appropriately, but I don't think it has been appropriate for the majority of the player base. In the last few patches I have just sat on it thinking that new content or additional updates would make level game play for all but that hasn't happened so here I am having my say. I had more points to express but for now I think these other ideas I had are just mere bugs in the new patch that haven't been fully fixed yet, would be unfair of me to have a dig at bugs.

As I said before Zylfrax I am not a talented writer but thanks for pointing that out.

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying either as completely writing off the game, I will still play, come this far don't see why I should stop now. But if the game continues down the path its going Ill just be playing it less and less, like a good number I have seen in the past. I don't want Squad to slowly die off I want the game to get a huge player base and continue on for as long as possible.

Edited November 3 by Wellsy28me english bad

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As I said before Zylfrax I am not a talented writer but thanks for pointing that out.

Don't misinterpret what I'm saying either as completely writing off the game, I will still play, come this far don't see why I should stop now. But if the game continues down the path its going Ill just be playing it less and less, like a good number I have seen in the past. I don't want Squad to slowly die off I want the game to get a huge player base and continue on for as long as possible.

Duly noted. I just think a bigger factor is simply too many choices for the average future potential and previous returning players who are either fatigued from waiting for a finished product or have moved onto to other games. Hopefully there will never be another free weekend because this drives away an equal amount of existing player corresponding to the freeloaders.

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Firstly on game modes/flag distribution, I agree, some updates would be nice (or more server options). I saw an idea for a game mode with a bunch of little flags all over the map, so you could actually see the enemy advance. Each street/building would be capturable. Or maybe changing up the capture mechanic like you said, or allowing each team to choose a primary defense flag, with secondary flags being worth less tickets.

On vehicles, Im usually AT or SL, so I spend a lot of time hunting vics. Personally I think the LAT needs more anti vic rockets. If I had 2 vic rockets (or more if I can dream) vehicles would be a lot less threatening. Currently, LAT is more of a anti-infantry role for the INS/MIL. With the new rpg scopes I feel vics are going to have to be more careful in the future. I agree with others posing, I think all Vehicles should cost more tickets, and take longer to re-spawn. I'd like to see a limited number of each asset per team. (could be listed for all to see, and maybe include how many vics each squad has used). I would like to see the A-symetry pushed further with vehicles as well. Losing a 5+Million dollar MBT should cost a Professional Military team dearly. But for the MIL/INS, losing a stolen toyota, strapped with a dshk shouldnt be too bad. (maybe give them stolen heavier assets from US/RUS to help balance ticket loss? it happens IRL...)

On Persistent Ammo, I actually like the idea. As others have said, its a bit cheesy to pop out of a rally, fully refreshed will 2 frags/rockets/etc ready to go. Especially if the enemy has you surrounded with no resupply. That would be catastrophic in a real engagement/siege. With persistence, logi drivers will be a must for all teams, which means vics will hunt/patrol these avenues.

I still think this game at current state is better than most AAA titles. If people are taking a break, they are probably waiting for v12, or playing some rpg. For me, there no other FPS games that come close to squad. I cant play other titles; they feel so fake and rubber.

(note: the above post is written in compliance with MLA format 8th edition, and is ready to receive a grade)

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I still think this game at current state is better than most AAA titles.

Agreed. For me and a few of the other members that come from the original Delta Force communities Squad is absolutely the closest game that truly captures the nostalgic spirit of the game that essentially started this genre in 1998. Nothing else comes close.

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On vehicles, Im usually AT or SL, so I spend a lot of time hunting vics. Personally I think the LAT needs more anti vic rockets. If I had 2 vic rockets (or more if I can dream) vehicles would be a lot less threatening. Currently, LAT is more of a anti-infantry role for the INS/MIL. With the new rpg scopes I feel vics are going to have to be more careful in the future. I agree with others posing, I think all Vehicles should cost more tickets, and take longer to re-spawn. I'd like to see a limited number of each asset per team. (could be listed for all to see, and maybe include how many vics each squad has used). I would like to see the A-symetry pushed further with vehicles as well. Losing a 5+Million dollar MBT should cost a Professional Military team dearly. But for the MIL/INS, losing a stolen toyota, strapped with a dshk shouldnt be too bad. (maybe give them stolen heavier assets from US/RUS to help balance ticket loss? it happens IRL...)

imo vehicles are the weak link in the game .. previously they cost a lot of tickets to lose, and AT had two Antitank..because of the nature of the game it was unbalanced ... with no real HP zones on the vehicle on AT could do a lot of damage... and with the vehicle trolls it just ruined the hard work of other squads who didnt waste tickets.

They then took away one AT rocket and it felt like vehicles were becoming more powerful, which was good ..but then added in weak rear ..so now LAT can take it out with one rocket.. which felt like we had gone back to the beginning...

I prefer that AT only has one rocket..it forces squad to decide how to kit out and keeps vehicles relatively powerful as they should be.

As for the whole ticket cost, yes agree they should be valuable and cost more but many players dont care about ticket cost, so just leave vehicles about the map, rush them right into where they shouldnt be and generally waste tickets... atm lower ticket cost is really the only way to defend against that sort of wastage for the benefit of the other players ... a squad can just waste a vehicle and immediately spawn at main and take another if its available, then do exactly the same thing... its still not right but helps a bit lowering the cost ...