First it was "Post Truth" and now this......

Bread2.0

xmiles wrote:when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves.

It statements like this from the Remain camp that anger me.

Firstly xmiles, please tell me how voting to leave the EU has made things worse for me. I don't mean a general sweeping statement, I mean for me personally.

He didn't mention you though, did he?

He said "large numbers of people", so unless you're one of the racist scrotes who left school at 16 with no qualifications and who now hate Polish people for making you look bad with their protestant work ethic and can-do attitude, as you sit on your settee all day, watching Kyle and eating Pot Noodles paid for with your JSA, that I keep referring to.....

Bread2.0

I get what you're saying, Glos, honestly, I do but, again, I can only comment from my own experience.

And I know personally, many people who voted Leave because they "don't like pakkies because they're all paedos" and will openly admit this now with a smile on their face.

And that has got sod all to do with the economy.

But they now feel emboldened by the result and are feeling more confident that when Article 50 does finally get triggered, we will somehow magically return to a time and place where white English people suddenly all get richer overnight and all the brown faces will disappear.

It's dangerous bullshit and that's my main problem with it all because what's going to happen when it doesn't pan out that way?

gloswhite

Youri Djorkaeff

Posts : 5704Join date : 2012-01-08Age : 67Location : Cheltenham

I like the Poles. They helped us out during the war, and as you say, they are good workers. Its a shame that a lot of our own workers had to take a dive in wages when the market was flooded with all the cheaper, but still skilled, workers.

gloswhite

Bread2.0 wrote:I get what you're saying, Glos, honestly, I do but, again, I can only comment from my own experience.

And I know personally, many people who voted Leave because they "don't like pakkies because they're all paedos" and will openly admit this now with a smile on their face.

And that has got sod all to do with the economy.

But they now feel emboldened by the result and are feeling more confident that when Article 50 does finally get triggered, we will somehow magically return to a time and place where white English people suddenly all get richer overnight and all the brown faces will disappear.

It's dangerous bullshit and that's my main problem with it all because what's going to happen when it doesn't pan out that way?

I can see what you say, and I hope we'll never get to that, but, as in the past, we will change attitudes, albeit slowly. I believe a lot of people will become less racist, and yes, I accept many people here are, (both white and non-white), when they are able to pay their own way in the world. Its as much, if not more, a financial problem, than race. The ethnic community, at least initially, are prepared to take a lower wage, and will require state support whilst they are establishing themselves. When they arrive in such numbers, the effect can be devastating to some communities. We have accepted the West Indians, and then the Asians from Idi Amin's days. The Chinese, Greeks, and Australians have all been integrated. Given time this will be resolved, although not in our lifetimes.

With regards to you hearing comments form those people you know, I have also heard them, from what would normally be considered sane, intelligent people. To me its an indication of how badly wrong things are going.However, in your case, I can only say: 'you have to get out more'

Reebok Trotter

Nat Lofthouse

Posts : 23411Join date : 2012-01-02Location : Broadmoor

I recently sold a load of house furniture to someone in Leicester and when the Courier company arrived, they were two Polish guys. I honestly couldn't fault them. they had straps and sheeting and loaded everything very professionally. They were that good that I would use them again.

gloswhite

Youri Djorkaeff

Posts : 5704Join date : 2012-01-08Age : 67Location : Cheltenham

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

There is a vast difference between a bare faced lie (£350m a week for the NHS) and exaggerated predictions (Project Fear). One side consistently lied and the other side made dubious predictions. There is a genuine moral difference, they are not equivalent.

Does not 'dubious predictions', especially from the people who really should know, not amount to lies? The principle is the same, telling lies to get what you want. There is so much at stake here, that it seems to be accepted by the people involved that the bigger the lie, the more we will believe it. Its not happening so much now, as I believe the politicians have finally woken up to the fact the country as a whole is far more politicized, and that we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for. Unfortunately, the country is suffering greatly for their stupidity and arrogance. Such is society nowadays, that because we all have access to IT, internet, etc, we all think we have a direct input into decision-making, (in some very limited way maybe we have), but, to me, too much intervention seems to muddy the water too much, and impedes progress. This applies to absolutely everything that needs a decision, whether its the government, local councils, and even the schools. What happened to just letting the appointed people get on with it?

No, dubious predictions are not the same as direct lies. Making dubious predictions even in bad faith remain predictions. Nobody can tell whether or not they will come true. If they are made in bad faith that is dishonest and you can certainly argue that may have been the case with Project Fear although Cameron and co might have genuinely believed these predictions.

However going on record as stating that you will do something such as spending £350m a week on the NHS if we leave the EU is different. This is people like Farage and Boris deliberately lying and having no intention of honouring their pledge. They knew they were lying all along and that is what makes it morally different.

I am also mystified by your statement that "we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for" when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves as a protest against what they see as the establishment.

Something I always wondered at, was how people believed the bus statement, when even if we came out, the people making the statement would never be in a position to keep that 'promise'. Its not as though the government would change, so how were they expected to manage it ? There was no commitment from the Chancellor, or other relevant post holders. I always looked on that particular figure as highlighting one of the financial costs of the EU, and not as a hard and fast policy change.Regards the lies, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular example.

wanderlust

Nat Lofthouse

Posts : 14244Join date : 2012-01-12

gloswhite wrote:When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain?

Honestly Glos, voting to leave the EU was the most anti-British act I can think of. I genuinely believe that and my opinion was reinforced by the post referendum polls which gave an indication of the real reasons Leave voters did what they did.

If being British involves taking full advantage of people from around the world and then stabbing them in the back when times are tough those are not the values I signed up for.

Natasha Whittam

Nat Lofthouse

Posts : 28304Join date : 2012-01-04Age : 34

Bread2.0 wrote:He didn't mention you though, did he?

He said "large numbers of people", so unless you're one of the racist scrotes who left school at 16 with no qualifications and who now hate Polish people for making you look bad with their protestant work ethic and can-do attitude, as you sit on your settee all day, watching Kyle and eating Pot Noodles paid for with your JSA, that I keep referring to.....

....his point stands.

And I agree with him.

The point, as you well know, is he doesn't know even 0.001% of the people who voted to leave so how can he, or anyone, make such statements.

gloswhite

Youri Djorkaeff

Posts : 5704Join date : 2012-01-08Age : 67Location : Cheltenham

Have to admit Wander, I genuinely cannot see that aspect, (if I understand you correctly). Maybe a few years ago, but I think the time has come when we need to be rather more protective of our own future. Yes, we took for many years, but there again, we have also given a great deal, and not just financially. If I've got it wrong, it would be interesting to hear what you mean.

Bread2.0

Andy Walker

Posts : 1901Join date : 2016-08-19

gloswhite wrote:I like the Poles. They helped us out during the war, and as you say, they are good workers. Its a shame that a lot of our own workers had to take a dive in wages when the market was flooded with all the cheaper, but still skilled, workers.

No offence, Glos, but that is a myth.

And it's that myth which helps to perpetuate the lie that your average British worker is poorer now because he's competing with some Polish bloke.

I used to work for a company in Manchester who have a large factory which makes washing up liquid, bleach and fabric conditioner.

They employ about 300 people in their Filling Hall across four shifts.

The nature of seasonal demand dictates that they employ a percentage of that number on agency contracts, so that they can flex up and down as appropriate.

The going rate for the job (when I was there) was about seven quid an hour.

They have a retained agency on site who source and provide said labour.

And they struggle to employ local (English) people because quite a lot of the residents of Langley Estate in Middleton won't get out of bed for seven quid an hour, let alone work on a production line, filling bottles of bleach.

So how do they fill the labour gap?

By bringing Eastern Europeans in, that's how.

And the decent ones are offered permanent contracts after 12 weeks.

So over the last ten years or so, the factory dynamic has shifted a bit to the point where about 50% of the full time, permanent staff are Eastern Europeans.

And this myth keeps getting perpetuated locally that McBrides only employ Poles and you can't get on if you're English and that's racist, blah, blah, etc....

When the truth of the matter actually is that McBride's would love a factory full of English people because it would make keeping the place running over Christmas far easier because 50% of the workforce wouldn't be buggering off back to Gdansk for the holidays.

And the Poles haven't driven the wages down, they're just more willing to accept the going rate for the job, whereas Daz from Midd would rather stay in bed and get his weed money off the government once a fortnight.

And having been self-employed for the last 12 years or so, I've seen this in literally dozens of factories up and down the country.

I've said it before, if they all upped sticks and went home tomorrow, half our factories would shut almost over night and the other half would have to start putting their prices up to offset the increase in wages that they'd have to offer Daz and his mates to get them off benefits.

And that ain't sustainable.

Bit it would be a direct consequence of abandoning the free movement of Europe wide labour which so many Leavers see as a good thing.

Natasha Whittam

Nat Lofthouse

Posts : 28304Join date : 2012-01-04Age : 34

Bread2.0 wrote:And the Poles haven't driven the wages down, they're just more willing to accept the going rate for the job, whereas Daz from Midd would rather stay in bed and get his weed money off the government once a fortnight.

gloswhite

Youri Djorkaeff

Posts : 5704Join date : 2012-01-08Age : 67Location : Cheltenham

Breaders, what you say is true, however, you are talking about unskilled labour. A point you miss is that as soon as a vacancy arises, there are more than enough Poles, Eastern Europeans, or whatever, available. I wouldn't have thought that all these people are working whilst they are waiting for the vacancy. I remember seeing TV programmes where skilled manual workers are being constantly undercut on prices, etc. When I was having my extension built, over six months, not once was a Pole on site, and one day there were 11 people here. Not all the locals want to stay in bed, but as you point out, a lot of them are stuck in the benefits trap, although I do wonder how whole sections of society can survive on lower wages, and some can't.if there was a pub around the corner, I'm sure we'd have a damned good discussion

xmiles

xmiles wrote:when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves.

It statements like this from the Remain camp that anger me.

Firstly xmiles, please tell me how voting to leave the EU has made things worse for me. I don't mean a general sweeping statement, I mean for me personally.

Secondly, leaving the EU is a long term strategy, I firmly believe that in 20 years time the UK will be far stronger because of it. Unless you have a time machine please tell me how you know I am wrong.

1. It may not make things worse for you if you are reasonably wealthy. I never said or implied that it will be worse for everybody. However if you are living in a region or working in an industry such as farming which receives large EU subsidies you are probably going to be worse off. Similarly employees are likely to see their work conditions deteriorate as some of the protections introduced by the EU are removed. Inflation will go up as the cost of importing goods rises due to the drop in the value of the pound. This will almost certainly get worse if we leave the single market.

2. I can't tell you that you are wrong. 20 years is a long time. You may even be right.

okocha

Tony Kelly

Posts : 852Join date : 2013-09-01Location : Old Boltonian

gloswhite wrote:

okocha wrote:The saddest thing for me are the divisions in society that have been caused, including death threats made against some of the main protagonists. Through his fateful decision to hold a referendum, DC has created a massive rift in society that will be very slow to settle, whatever way it goes now. People will be arguing endlessly about strategies for EU negotiations and outcomes.

To make it worse, the handling of the key issues from the outset was shameful, so that no one could be certain of the likely consequences of their voting. No wonder people are disenchanted with politicians. Lies and exaggeration at every turn.

Nearly half the population will be unhappy now, as is also the case in America, but while DC is lying low and escaping most of the flak, Trump gets Time Magazine's Man of the Year award for being even more blatantly a dissembler, and continues to make errors of judgement that may eventually prove catastrophic.

Thank God BW are cheering us up for the moment!

Agree with you Okocha, but there were already big divisions in the country, and thats, why the referendum went the way it did. I also believe it will take a long time for this situation to resolve, but whilst we argue among ourselves, the pain will be prolonged for all.I honestly thought the Times awarding Trump the Man of the year award was a piss take, as the nominations were him, Farage, and Putin, but when I saw on the TV that they were taking it seriously, I couldn't help but wonder where society was going. Its as stupid as giving Obama the Nobel prize when he hadn't done anything.As you say, at least we have the Super Whites to keep us going.

Glos, the award was not from The Times, but given annually by Time Magazine, an American publication. Still controversial, though!

okocha

Tony Kelly

Posts : 852Join date : 2013-09-01Location : Old Boltonian

The number of wild suppositions and generalisations on this thread is stupefying. The whole issue is far more complex than can be explained by mentioning some people that you are acquainted with and then making them your "truth".

Nor do the figures quoted by Wander begin to explain people's individual motives for their choice on the absurdly simplistic referendum voting form. (Thanks, Dave!) You are just guessing.

The fact that British society and institutions, our elected representatives in government, each political party etc....(in fact, EVERYbody).... are so divided, confirms that we should refrain from making sweeping statements that are simply expressions of our own point of view.

Boggersbelief

xmiles wrote:when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves.

It statements like this from the Remain camp that anger me.

Firstly xmiles, please tell me how voting to leave the EU has made things worse for me. I don't mean a general sweeping statement, I mean for me personally.

He didn't mention you though, did he?

He said "large numbers of people", so unless you're one of the racist scrotes who left school at 16 with no qualifications and who now hate Polish people for making you look bad with their protestant work ethic and can-do attitude, as you sit on your settee all day, watching Kyle and eating Pot Noodles paid for with your JSA, that I keep referring to.....

gloswhite

Youri Djorkaeff

Posts : 5704Join date : 2012-01-08Age : 67Location : Cheltenham

okocha wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

okocha wrote:The saddest thing for me are the divisions in society that have been caused, including death threats made against some of the main protagonists. Through his fateful decision to hold a referendum, DC has created a massive rift in society that will be very slow to settle, whatever way it goes now. People will be arguing endlessly about strategies for EU negotiations and outcomes.

To make it worse, the handling of the key issues from the outset was shameful, so that no one could be certain of the likely consequences of their voting. No wonder people are disenchanted with politicians. Lies and exaggeration at every turn.

Nearly half the population will be unhappy now, as is also the case in America, but while DC is lying low and escaping most of the flak, Trump gets Time Magazine's Man of the Year award for being even more blatantly a dissembler, and continues to make errors of judgement that may eventually prove catastrophic.

Thank God BW are cheering us up for the moment!

Agree with you Okocha, but there were already big divisions in the country, and thats, why the referendum went the way it did. I also believe it will take a long time for this situation to resolve, but whilst we argue among ourselves, the pain will be prolonged for all.I honestly thought the Times awarding Trump the Man of the year award was a piss take, as the nominations were him, Farage, and Putin, but when I saw on the TV that they were taking it seriously, I couldn't help but wonder where society was going. Its as stupid as giving Obama the Nobel prize when he hadn't done anything.As you say, at least we have the Super Whites to keep us going.

Glos, the award was not from The Times, but given annually by Time Magazine, an American publication. Still controversial, though!

Sorry mate. I was so busy typing that I wasn't reading it. I did of course mean Time magazine, or was it the Beano...... ?

wanderlust

okocha wrote:Nor do the figures quoted by Wander begin to explain people's individual motives for their choice on the absurdly simplistic referendum voting form. (Thanks, Dave!) You are just guessing.

Whilst we will never know every individual's motives for voting the way they did, the analysis of the various surveys published the other day would seem to be a fair indicator of the more common motives as the sample size was in excess of 40,000 therefore I would disagree with your assertion that it's guesswork.

I published the figures in the economy thread as "the economy" was a massive factor in the decision making process (along with immigration and what is described as"taking back control") so please have a look.

Agree that the referendum form was too simplistic - in fact I'd go as far as to say that they asked the wrong question. Currently the Government are in the courts arguing about leaving the single market (they are avoiding saying that for political reasons) but we all know the problem is because nobody was asked if they wanted to leave the market, incorrect assumptions were made and there was no explanation of the implications of leaving prior to the referendum. It's like they asked if we wanted to leave the wife and after everybody said yes, then asked "even if she's taking the house, the car, your penis and all your money?"

The Government's current position is "you said you wanted to leave your wife so you won't mind if I evict you from your house, sell your car, cut off your penis and transfer all your money into her account".