Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 3, 2016 11:22:42 GMT -5

Hey, it's 2016, let's wake up and get back to work on this. We've discussed NDE's in these forums before so a rehash may not be necessary, but does this study help us in this topic?

We are undergoing a flurry of NDE's now because of the advance of medical knowledge. Where we used to have trouble resuscitating after 10 minutes, the window is extending to 3-4 hours or longer. Some of us here have had NDE's (I haven't). The organs may quit working--including the brain, as indicated by dilated eyes--but until the cells of these organs die from oxygen deprivation (which takes hours) the organs can be revived. Again, including the brain. If I say something stupid, any of you medical guys and gals out there please correct me!

So with this much-longer window, more and more people are coming back from the dead. The stories keep accumulating. Bright lights, mysterious beings welcoming us, and of course, the experience of much the same for nonbelievers/agnostics/believers-of-all-kinds, so it doesn't matter whether you call the welcoming light "Jesus" or "Allah" some other name. But the experiences are profoundly life-changing, enriching the feeling of universal connectedness.

Post by dmmichgood on Jan 4, 2016 15:17:47 GMT -5

Hey, it's 2016, let's wake up and get back to work on this. We've discussed NDE's in these forums before so a rehash may not be necessary, but does this study help us in this topic?

We are undergoing a flurry of NDE's now because of the advance of medical knowledge. Where we used to have trouble resuscitating after 10 minutes, the window is extending to 3-4 hours or longer. Some of us here have had NDE's (I haven't). The organs may quit working--including the brain, as indicated by dilated eyes--but until the cells of these organs die from oxygen deprivation (which takes hours) the organs can be revived. Again, including the brain. If I say something stupid, any of you medical guys and gals out there please correct me!

So with this much-longer window, more and more people are coming back from the dead. The stories keep accumulating. Bright lights, mysterious beings welcoming us, and of course, the experience of much the same for nonbelievers/agnostics/believers-of-all-kinds, so it doesn't matter whether you call the welcoming light "Jesus" or "Allah" some other name. But the experiences are profoundly life-changing, enriching the feeling of universal connectedness.

So are we learning anything that will help in the search for God?

No. NDE's just provides knowledge of how our brain works. Here is my own experience last October. I created a thread o the subject.

There are many people who tend to believe that 'near-death-experiences,' 'hallucinations' & other out of the ordinary experiences of that nature have a 'spiritual' explanation which comes from a 'god.'I maintain they are part of a function of the brain.

I relate an experience of mine just lately.

My blood pressure became so low & I felt so strange, that my son called the medics & took me to the hospital.At my age I am concerned about having a stroke.

(We are being made more aware of late that we should treat symptoms of a stroke as we would treat symptoms of a heart attack. Get medical intervention immediately and we may avoid the full impact that stokes can have on the body. )

At the hospital I was having visual hallucinations. I was fully aware that they were hallucinations and not something that I was actually seeing.When the CAT scan was done they found this "mass" in my brain so I was transported by ambulance to the larger city hospital.

All the while, I am 'seeing' things completely out of context of my surroundings. I was fully awake.I knew they shouldn't be there.

After receiving medication to reduce any swelling, the hallucinations gradually reduced from quite vivid pictures with definite boundaries to a kind of gossamer white thread-like foggy substance that I would try to pass my finger through to see if I could catch it like a spiders web.To test myself I would ask my children, if they could see what I am seeing.Of course they couldn't.

I was only in the hospital less than 48 hours, went home free of hallucinations & been fine ever since.

The brain mass is close to the optic nerve.It was one the the doctor had found several years ago & we had been keeping tabs on but this time it had a 'fuzziness' around it identified as edema.(swelling),-the medication for swelling simply reduced the edema & kept it from pressing on the optic nerve that was causing the "hallucinations " What's my point of this story?

No doubt many people having such an experience would be convinced that some 'god' was trying to show them something.

However, such an explanation was simply NOT a consideration for me. I don't believe there is any evidence for a god and I think such experiences, -like "near-death-experiences," etc., are a product of our brain function or rather mis-function.

Post by ellie on Jan 5, 2016 6:40:22 GMT -5

We've discussed NDE's in these forums before so a rehash may not be necessary, but does this study help us in this topic?

We are undergoing a flurry of NDE's now because of the advance of medical knowledge. Where we used to have trouble resuscitating after 10 minutes, the window is extending to 3-4 hours or longer. Some of us here have had NDE's (I haven't). The organs may quit working--including the brain, as indicated by dilated eyes--but until the cells of these organs die from oxygen deprivation (which takes hours) the organs can be revived. Again, including the brain. If I say something stupid, any of you medical guys and gals out there please correct me!

So with this much-longer window, more and more people are coming back from the dead. The stories keep accumulating. Bright lights, mysterious beings welcoming us, and of course, the experience of much the same for nonbelievers/agnostics/believers-of-all-kinds, so it doesn't matter whether you call the welcoming light "Jesus" or "Allah" some other name. But the experiences are profoundly life-changing, enriching the feeling of universal connectedness.

So are we learning anything that will help in the search for God?

The only NDE I've read of was Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander. Has anybody else read it? If so what did you think of it? Did you think was a hoax or credible?

We've discussed NDE's in these forums before so a rehash may not be necessary, but does this study help us in this topic?

We are undergoing a flurry of NDE's now because of the advance of medical knowledge. Where we used to have trouble resuscitating after 10 minutes, the window is extending to 3-4 hours or longer. Some of us here have had NDE's (I haven't). The organs may quit working--including the brain, as indicated by dilated eyes--but until the cells of these organs die from oxygen deprivation (which takes hours) the organs can be revived. Again, including the brain. If I say something stupid, any of you medical guys and gals out there please correct me!

So with this much-longer window, more and more people are coming back from the dead. The stories keep accumulating. Bright lights, mysterious beings welcoming us, and of course, the experience of much the same for nonbelievers/agnostics/believers-of-all-kinds, so it doesn't matter whether you call the welcoming light "Jesus" or "Allah" some other name. But the experiences are profoundly life-changing, enriching the feeling of universal connectedness.

So are we learning anything that will help in the search for God?

The only NDE I've read of was Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander. Has anybody else read it? If so what did you think of it? Did you think was a hoax or credible?

Eben Alexander's claim that in his so-called NDE where he went to a "heaven," needs a second , third, & actually umpteenth investigation before anyone should blindly take his experience as any kind of proof of an afterlife.

Don't let his credentials as a Neurosurgeon sway your decision until you learn more about him.Proof of Heavenby Eben Alexander.

"Alexander is the author of the 2012 autobiographical book Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife, in which he asserts that his out of body and near-death experience (NDE) while in a meningitis-induced coma in 2008 proves that consciousness is independent of the brain, that death is a transition, and that an eternity of perfect splendor awaits us beyond the grave – complete with angels, clouds, and deceased relatives, but also including butterflies and a beautiful girl in peasant dress whom Alexander later identifies as his deceased sister.[4][5]

Criticism and reaction

"In a 2013 investigation of Alexander's story and medical background, Esquire magazine reported that before the publication of Proof of Heaven, Alexander had been terminated or suspended from multiple hospital positions, and had been the subject of several malpractice lawsuits, including at least two involving the alteration of medical records to cover up a medical error."[11][12]

"The magazine also found what it claimed were discrepancies with regard to Alexander's version of events in the book. Among the discrepancies, according to an account of the Esquire article in Forbes, was that "Alexander writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of severe bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while a doctor who cared for him says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating".[12][11][13] from wiki

In two letters - BS. Quantum, quantum information, entanglement, quantum theory, etc. are all good buzz words but it is difficult to tie quantum mechanics to macro scale happenings. Schrödinger's cat was an example to make the idea clear - an allegory if you wish. No one is suggesting that you shut a cat in a box with a random killing device (although I can see the merit of such a device) and then check in on it 2 years down the road to see if the cat is dead or alive.

This leads, of course, to one of my favorite people who also dabbles in the quantum world in an effort to part people from their wealth. "In his book Quantum Healing, Chopra stated the conclusion that quantum entanglement links everything in the Universe, and therefore it must create consciousness."

If the information is carried as suggested all of the neurons in our brains are absolutely not necessary for maintaining one of the most sophisticated effects of what is probably the most complex machinery ever, simple awareness.

This reminds me to some extent of the claims made by homeopaths that even though there was not a single molecule of the compound in the medicine that it would still work because the water retained a 'memory' of the molecule. This is somewhat like the claim being made for the quantum particles.

Post by ellie on Jan 6, 2016 6:17:29 GMT -5

The only NDE I've read of was Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander. Has anybody else read it? If so what did you think of it? Did you think was a hoax or credible?

Eben Alexander's claim that in his so-called NDE where he went to a "heaven," needs a second , third, & actually umpteenth investigation before anyone should blindly take his experience as any kind of proof of an afterlife.

Post by ellie on Jan 6, 2016 6:24:43 GMT -5

Probably not finding much of help in the search for God. (If you have I'd be pleased to hear about it)

From what little I’ve heard about NDE’s, many people report seeing loved ones. The message that I take from NDE’s is that on deaths door we probably aren’t going to be thinking about wealth we’ve amassed, possessions we’ve acquired or even great achievements. We might think about precious people who have loved and cared for us.

Post by bubbles on Jan 7, 2016 6:50:46 GMT -5

I havent had NDE. I do know people who have. I trust their word. Im sure non of us have a clue how real that was for the person nor how impacting. We can analyse and intellectualise all we like to reach the 'correct' conclusion. The truth is we dont really know.

Post by rational on Jan 7, 2016 9:04:38 GMT -5

I havent had NDE. I do know people who have. I trust their word. Im sure non of us have a clue how real that was for the person nor how impacting. We can analyse and intellectualise all we like to reach the 'correct' conclusion. The truth is we dont really know.

Yet people write books claiming they do know and people buy those books and many believe them.

Post by matisse on Jan 7, 2016 9:21:55 GMT -5

In the case of the book, "Heaven is For Real", people have continued to purchase the book and give it rave reviews despite the fact that the child (now young adult) has since admitted in a written statement that he made up the story of going to heaven and speaking with Jesus following a car crash because he thought it would get him attention.

Post by rational on Jan 7, 2016 9:33:33 GMT -5

In the case of the book, "Heaven is For Real", people have continued to purchase the book and give it rave reviews despite the fact that the child (now young adult) has since admitted in a written statement that he made up the story of going to heaven and speaking with Jesus following a car crash because he thought it would get him attention.

Post by xna on Jan 7, 2016 11:11:12 GMT -5

In the news now: "Mom uses dead son's fb account to post as him from heaven begging people to turn to Christ."

Death of a son must be very hard to deal with. Death is the end, and a hard reality. Many will grasp at anything to escape the reality. The sad part is this just makes if worse for longer, and robs you of life now.

Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 12:45:46 GMT -5

As one who has also had a NDE, but far different than as some describe theirs, perhaps the answer to the OP question is, "no, not 'us,' rather possibly to those who believe as indiviuals."

The experience for me is one of something precious, entirely unexpected and contrary to imagination, even different than others descriptions of theirs. It has removed all fear of dying, and compels me to look forward to returning. As I have carefully shared it in this forum, only to have it disrespectfully trampled in the mud by non-believers, it is not something which will be done again. If anyone wishes to know more of my personal experience, they may contact me privately by email, or here by PM, and as able, they will get a detailed reply.

"Contrary to popular belief, research suggests that there is nothing paranormal about these experiences. Instead, near-death experiences are the manifestation of normal brain function gone awry, during a traumatic, and sometimes harmless, event"

Post by SharonArnold on Jan 7, 2016 13:55:35 GMT -5

As one who has also had a NDE, but far different than as some describe theirs, perhaps the answer to the OP question is, "no, not 'us,' rather possibly to those who believe as indiviuals."

The experience for me is one of something precious, entirely unexpected and contrary to imagination, even different than others descriptions of theirs. It has removed all fear of dying, and compels me to look forward to returning. As I have carefully shared it in this forum, only to have it disrespectfully trampled in the mud by non-believers, it is not something which will be done again. If anyone wishes to know more of my personal experience, they may contact me privately by email, or here by PM, and as able, they will get a detailed reply.

I am sorry that you experienced something so deeply personal and generously shared, being "disrespectfully trampled in the mud".

I have not personally had an NDE, but after my Dad passed away when I was 25 years old, I spent the next 5 years reading everything available on that subject at that time. In the years since, it has not been a particular area of interest to me, though I have occasionally followed some high profile NDE's.

I have no special interest in arguing what it may mean of life after death, or of life before birth, for that matter.

What is endlessly fascinating to me is how deeply meaningful these experiences are to people who have experienced one - and the effect that it has on their outlook and how they live their life from that point forward. These experiences are frequently transformative, whether the NDE was positive or negative. Removing all fear of dying, and inspiring people to live in a more meaningful way are common effects. To me, that is very significant.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. ~Rumi

In the end, these things matter most; How well did you love? How fully did you live? How deeply did you learn to let go? ~Buddha

Give up to Grace... the ocean takes care of each and every wave until it reaches the shore. ~Rumi

Even after all this time, the Sun never says to the Earth "You owe me." Look what happens with a love like that, it lights the whole sky. ~Hafiz

Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 15:08:20 GMT -5

I havent had NDE. I do know people who have. I trust their word. Im sure non of us have a clue how real that was for the person nor how impacting. We can analyse and intellectualise all we like to reach the 'correct' conclusion. The truth is we dont really know.

I agree. I have not had an NDE either, cbut when I was a lad of about twelve years old, I recall an episode involving a cousin's wife. She was seriously ill in hospital for a couple weeks and as her condition grew worse the doctors said that there was no hope for her recovery. They summoned the family down if they wished to see her before she passed away. Some members of the family visited and concluded that she was very close to death.The following day the family received news from the hospital that she was up and sitting in bed and seemed to have made a mariculous recovery.To cut a long story short, a few weeks later, that lady visited my mother, full of life and in my presence told us a remarkable story. She said that when she was on her death bed, she had had an experience; she said that she was travelling down a dark tunnel and ahead of her near the end of the tunnel they were two brightly lit tunnels, one going to the left and the other on going to the right; at entrance of the tunnel to the left were angels dressed like nuns and at the entrance to the tunnel to the right stood many of her deceased relativevs and friends. All those at each tunnel were beckoning her to come with them. She said that she was confused but decided to go with the angels dressed like nuns. She said they immediately embraced her and she woke up out of the coma and sat up in the hospital bed all cofused and disturbed by what she said she thought was a dream, all this to the amazement of the nurses and doctors. I remember it as she told it, did I believe it then? Yes, as a young lad, do I believe it now? Not sure, to be honest. A bit skeptical perhaps.ps. I think that I should mention that the lady was a member of the Catholic church, not sure if it is relevant or not, considering that some claim to have visions of the Virgin Mary.

Post by xna on Jan 7, 2016 15:52:05 GMT -5

I see most who claim they have had a NDE as being truthful and understand it's a profound real experience for them. However, you could say the exact same thing for people who claim they have had an alien abduction. My guess is many who claim they had a NDE and met god would be skeptical about someone who claimed they experienced an alien abduction. Since I have never experience either, and see no evidence for aliens or gods, the reasonable default position is to remain skeptical that neither of the accounts represent any objective reality.

I am more convinced by scientific studies than by religious interpretations. I have noticed that NDE often follow the reporters own particular brand of believing. Those who think they saw god during a NDE should at least consider their brain was not working at it's best during the experience, and question the reliability of their memory of the NDE. Consider when someone is drunk their brain is also impaired, I don't think they have perfect memory about what happened when they were drunk.

Brain scientist Jill Bolte Taylor studied her own stroke as it happened. Self reports in such states are not very reliable, but it would seem to me she may be one of the best first hand self reporters on the disfunction of the brain.

Post by bubbles on Jan 7, 2016 16:57:30 GMT -5

DennisIm also sorry for the reaction to your NDE which is so personal to you.

partakerMy response is that the NDE you relate is similar to so many. Taken through a tunnel, appearance of angels, a decision to make of left or right, faces of past relatives.

SharonThecresults of living a more meaningful life. I knew of unsaved person becoming bornagain as a result of NDE.

NDE are a spiritual experience described using the human brain. Many dont think they are spirit. So a spiritual experience or encounter totally deludes? Confuses? them. Therefore it is easier to deny that it happened.

ratz

Stick to science. When science is able to explain the phenomena to you. I hope you will be gracious enough to achknowledge it.

Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 7, 2016 19:28:38 GMT -5

I've read quite a bit on the topic, and I too prefer the scientific approach to such things, but this is a tough one. It's a lot deeper subject than can be dismissed by short articles such as what xna posted (every researcher is aware of these surface biases). Here is how I currently lean:

1. NDE's are life-changing events, and not always for the better. They break up a lot of marriages because people's life-purposes are drastically altered by the experience.

2. There are TONS of stories, and lots of commonalities, but they're all stories. No controlled, verifiable experimentation.

3. There is little true scientific study going on to my knowledge because of the difficulty in studying the topic. Many claim to have out-of-body experiences, and there have been cases where items are hidden in operating rooms out of sight except for someone who may be floating around the ceiling, to see if anybody notices them, but so far I find nothing very convincing.

4. Some NDE-like experiences can happen without nearly dying. Hallucinatory drugs can cause the same effect.

5. I STRONGLY recommend reading the Jill Bolte Taylor experience, about how a stroke caused the left side of her brain to shut down, and what she experienced.

I personally think NDE's can tell us an awful lot about God-experiences. They are, to my mind, the ultimate God-experience. We might not want to hear it, though, because for one thing the studies contradict just about every Christian belief about the afterlife.

She say religions are just stories people make up to explain extraordinary events, and the unknown.Here god is the natural universe of everything. A little too much spiritual whoo mixed in there for me.www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RnpoX0CjmQ

Post by dmmichgood on Jan 7, 2016 21:34:05 GMT -5

I havent had NDE. I do know people who have. I trust their word. Im sure non of us have a clue how real that was for the person nor how impacting. We can analyse and intellectualise all we like to reach the 'correct' conclusion. The truth is we dont really know.

Actually, we do know.

Once people thought that people who hallucinated & were basically "out out their mind" (had lost all sense of reality) was a victim of possession by the "devil."

Some where there had been a glitch, a malfunction of the biological organ called their BRAIN, and since the BRAIN is the physical organ that controls our MIND, when their BRAIN did NOT function correctly there MIND went off the rails!

Now we know it wasn't due to any possession by the "devil" and we have medication that will return them the to reality. I would hope that most of us living today recognize that it isn't a "devil" that causes people to have mental problems.

Then why is it so difficult for people to understand that what happens with these near death experiences is ALSO due to a glitch (malfunction) of the biological organ called our BRAIN?!

Geeze! I could write a book about my hallucinations!

Just think, -bouquets of flowers in the ambulance? WOW! just think what I could make out of that one! IIf you can't see the connection, think hearse/bouquets?

How about this one? A document being written, I could see the pen writing but no hand attached.Just think what I could do with that one!

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