In situations where one has a significant other (or even friend) that attends a protestant church, your chances are slim to none of getting her/him to come to your Orthodox Church if you are not willing to attend theirs. (At least that's my experience)

It's best to receive a blessing from one's priest to attend a Protestant service. As for praying with them, I find no problem providing heretical statements are introduced into the prayer. It seems to me that some of these prohibitions need to be understood in their historical context.

I can say that I know of an OCA priest in the city of Portland who on occasion has attended a Protestant service (more than once I understand). Whether he "prays" along with them during their time of prayer or not, he alone knows. In fact, when I asked him if there were a problem with my wife and I attending attending some Protestant services due to the fact that we could not always be present at his church, he had no issues with it.

thanks Jim for your thoughtful answer...I am willing and ready to accept the Orthodox church as the fullness of God's expression but I wonder why it would be even considered a bad thing to pray with another christian. After all, you admit that it was in the protestant church that you began your journey to Christ so it would seem wrong to assume that the "others" are not worthy of praying with. Surely, God is at work in these Protestant churches, drawing men to Himself. Would it be wrong to acknowledge that? I believe you can remain totally orthodox and still pray with non-orthodox Christians. To do otherwise is, I believe, spiritual arrogance.Jim

Maybe the important difference lies in where and how we pray with heterodox Christians. The reason that this is an issue is because we want to protect ourselves from heterodox influences. If we enter their Churches and pray according to their customs, then we make ourselves susceptible to erroneous doctrines. But if we pray with them outside of a Church context and initiate the prayers so that they are sure to be Orthodox in nature, then I would think this to be a positive thing. I coach youth football, and our team always says the Lord's Prayer after practice and after our games. I think we can always unite with Protestants and Catholics around the Lord's Prayer and the Apostle's Creed.

Selam

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"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

thank you, Maureen for your detailed answer...I think a distinction should be made between praying with those who clearly are NOT Christians (Mormons, wiccans, ect) and those who profess faith in a Trinitarian God. If you are with a non-Orthodox Xian and they pray something that, you believe is wrong, simply do not say "AMEN" at the end of the prayer. You cannot be responsible for what others say or pray. I guess you fear that, by being at a protestant church or praying with a protestant, that it will be "guilt by association". Well, what do you care what others think? I am sure, if pressed, you would not fail to give an orthodox answer to any question of faith they ask you? When the apostle Paul (May he pray for us!) gave advice to the Corinthian church about eating with the pagans, he said to raise no question of conscience. Granted, a worship service is different but could not someone say to the Corinthian Xian, "You are a pagan because you eat meat sacrificed to idols?" If you are worried about what others think of you and your faith, I don't think you have to be. Just by going to a protestant worship service, people know they have visitors all the time.

thanks again,Jim

Hi Jim,

I'm not worried about "guilt by association"; I'm worried about the spread of heresy. The fact that we cannot control what someone says or prays is why we are expressly forbidden from praying with heretics. (Yes, even Protestants who believe in the Trinity are heretics in the eyes of the Orthodox Church.) I think as you study Orthodoxy and begin to see how different our theology is from Protestant theology, you will begin to understand why the Orthodox Church is against praying with non-Orthodox.

God bless,

Maureen

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

thanks Jim for your thoughtful answer...I am willing and ready to accept the Orthodox church as the fullness of God's expression but I wonder why it would be even considered a bad thing to pray with another christian. After all, you admit that it was in the protestant church that you began your journey to Christ so it would seem wrong to assume that the "others" are not worthy of praying with. Surely, God is at work in these Protestant churches, drawing men to Himself. Would it be wrong to acknowledge that? I believe you can remain totally orthodox and still pray with non-orthodox Christians. To do otherwise is, I believe, spiritual arrogance.Jim

Maybe the important difference lies in where and how we pray with heterodox Christians. The reason that this is an issue is because we want to protect ourselves from heterodox influences. If we enter their Churches and pray according to their customs, then we make ourselves susceptible to erroneous doctrines. But if we pray with them outside of a Church context and initiate the prayers so that they are sure to be Orthodox in nature, then I would think this to be a positive thing. I coach youth football, and our team always says the Lord's Prayer after practice and after our games. I think we can always unite with Protestants and Catholics around the Lord's Prayer and the Apostle's Creed.

Selam

Excellent! Now I understand...It isn't that orthodox are "too good" to pray with protestants...it is just so we can protect ourselves from their erroneous doctrine. I understand this but shouldn't this be done on "a case by case" basis? That is, there are going to be orthodox who may be married to protestants and, for the sake of the marriage, protestant church may have to be attended on a consistant basis, as long as the divine liturgy isn't neglected, that is. I imagine such decisions should be made in concert with a priest.

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

The Serbian Church certainly teaches its faithful not to attend Catholic Churches. Stashko is being faithful and obedient to his bishops.

One remembers also that the Lebanese bishop Saint Raphael Hawaweeny (sp?) directed his people in the States not to Catholic churches but when necessary to go to the Anglicans. Eventually he withdraw this permission also and instructed them not to go to any heterodox churches at all. His historical epistle on this topic will be on the Web somewhere.

As for praying with them, I find no problem providing heretical statements are introduced into the prayer.

Still, they will be praying to different Gods. The OC will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ just because He loved us, while the Protestant will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ in order to calm down His anger.How does not theology affect our views about God?

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Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.

As for praying with them, I find no problem providing heretical statements are introduced into the prayer.

Still, they will be praying to different Gods. The OC will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ just because He loved us, while the Protestant will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ in order to calm down His anger.How does not theology affect our views about God?

You are absolutely correct that our theology affects our view of God. But I think you are being a bit unfair in your characterization of Protestants here. While the Protestant will indeed say that Christ's atonement was needed to punish sin and satisfy the wrath of God, I think they would also strongly say that this was all done because of God's great love for us.

Selam

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"God is a consuming fire. And His fire is love."+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +

Excellent! Now I understand...It isn't that orthodox are "too good" to pray with protestants...it is just so we can protect ourselves from their erroneous doctrine. I understand this but shouldn't this be done on "a case by case" basis? That is, there are going to be orthodox who may be married to protestants and, for the sake of the marriage, protestant church may have to be attended on a consistant basis, as long as the divine liturgy isn't neglected, that is. I imagine such decisions should be made in concert with a priest.

Bingo! You got it! Someone give this man a cigar! lol

The particular example you cited would best be discussed between the couple and the Orthodox spouse's priest.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

I was raised Nazarene, spent years in various fundamentalist/evangelical Protestant churches, and am married to a Lutheran. Every once in a great while I attend services with the hubby or with my parents. I don't take communion, of course. One couple in my church is mixed: Orthodox and Protestant, though I don't remember what denomination; I think it's a non-denominational Bible church. They attend both churches together.

I used to attend an Evangelical Free church, and helped out in the youth group. The youth group leader has since gone on to head a kind of fellowship group for young adults. I miss being with my old friends, but I know they're going to sing praise choruses and teach a Calvinist form of Evangelicalism, so I don't go to their meetings. Now I find that these meetings, which were basically inter-denominational, are turning into a kind of church. So I continue to stay away.

While I enjoy having the chance to go to church with my family once in a while, instead of always being by myself, the songs and theology often bug me so much that I don't sing along, don't do the congregational responses. If it's an old favorite, however, then I'll join in.

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Author of "Tojet" (fantasy) and "The Lighthouse" (Gothic), info available at my website URL.

The Serbian Church certainly teaches its faithful not to attend Catholic Churches. Stashko is being faithful and obedient to his bishops.

One remembers also that the Lebanese bishop Saint Raphael Hawaweeny (sp?) directed his people in the States not to Catholic churches but when necessary to go to the Anglicans. Eventually he withdraw this permission also and instructed them not to go to any heterodox churches at all. His historical epistle on this topic will be on the Web somewhere.

Thank You Father ..........Excellent reply to Nebelpfade Obedience Obideance....

Excellent! Now I understand...It isn't that orthodox are "too good" to pray with protestants...it is just so we can protect ourselves from their erroneous doctrine. I understand this but shouldn't this be done on "a case by case" basis? That is, there are going to be orthodox who may be married to protestants and, for the sake of the marriage, protestant church may have to be attended on a consistant basis, as long as the divine liturgy isn't neglected, that is. I imagine such decisions should be made in concert with a priest.

Bingo! You got it! Someone give this man a cigar! lol

The particular example you cited would best be discussed between the couple and the Orthodox spouse's priest.

As for praying with them, I find no problem providing heretical statements are introduced into the prayer.

Still, they will be praying to different Gods. The OC will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ just because He loved us, while the Protestant will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ in order to calm down His anger.How does not theology affect our views about God?

I understand that a person's theology should and must be correct...However, when it comes to prayer, it is one individual talking or trying to communicate to a loving God. We, may get it wrong sometimes in what we say BUT God, I believe, looks at a person's heart....Not to pray with someone because they may say something incorrect is, I believe, going overboard. It is for God to judge that person and those who are Orthodox, who know what is correct, may gently instruct later but, nevertheless, during the prayer a person can be truly speaking to God. Surely, you do not need correct theology before God will hear you.

We, may get it wrong sometimes in what we say BUT God, I believe, looks at a person's heart....Not to pray with someone because they may say something incorrect is, I believe, going overboard. It is for God to judge that person and those who are Orthodox, who know what is correct, may gently instruct later but, nevertheless, during the prayer a person can be truly speaking to God. Surely, you do not need correct theology before God will hear you.

Well... this is also true. But you know... I've been in enough evangelical services and listened to their prayers to know that they often expound their own ideas and essentially lecture God (and those gathered) on what they believe and how He is to act. In short, some of their prayers become little more than another sermon. This is where I draw the line in the sand. I don't accept everything they have to say in their sermons and I don't accept everything they say in their sermon-like prayers in spite of their sincerity. But when something comes from the heart and is an honest attempt to bring glory to the Lord through prayer (and the witness of the All-holy Spirit within me does not set off any alarm bells) then I have no issues with it. But that's just me.

I think "the sharing of the same table" was perhaps the hardest thing I've ever had to understand, as unfortunately it is usually seen as a rejection. RE: Holy Communion; more than anything, when Orthodox share the same table, they are accepting all that they teach as true, of course. To tell the truth, this is something which made absolutely no sense to me a little while ago, as it initially looks prideful to take this course. But, in reality - counter-intuitively - it is quite the opposite. This is my understanding: to share communion with another Church would be to accept all that they teach as true; either that or we affirm that the difference in our beliefs are unimportant, which is to say the beliefs themselves are unimportant. This is to show arrogance towards the beliefs of the other Church and disdain towards our own. I know people who have converted from Anglicism and Catholicism to Orthodoxy. Most of them had some stage where they continued to attend their old Church, but for reasons of conscience, did not take communion. No priest told them to do this. They simply recognized that what their old Churches proclaimed was not what they believed. They knew in themselves that to take communion in their old Churches would be to lie to their fellow Anglicans/Catholics and themselves. I help out at my local Methodist Church (that is, I help the children in Sunday School) but I don't receive communion in my Methodist Church. I also attend an Orthodox Church and I have discovered, being in an Orthodox Church with the sights, sounds, smells and actions is simply another level to reading the beautiful prayers, etc. My Orthodox friends, obviously, have family members and friends who are protestants; they love their friends dearly, of course, and they pray with them during grace before meals, in their home chapel, etc.

My protestant friends say. ."Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of Me" When I share communion I am remembering Jesus death. The theology of the fellowship is largely irrelevant". Also, they don't understand why Orthodox and Catholics can't "overcome their differences" I completely understand where they are coming from, as I used to feel the same. My usual answer is:

First of all, there is a difference in beliefs on the nature of the Sacraments. On the individual Sacraments, there are also differences. First, re the Catholics, the Orthodox and the Eucharist: In the Orthodox church, the culmination of the service is the epiklisis which is when the Holy Spirit is called down to act in the Eucharist:

"Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon the Gifts here spread forth, and make this bread to be the precious Body of Thy Christ... ."

This prayer is not used in Catholic churches, and Catholics believe that when the priest says "This is my Body..." "This is my blood..." that the change occurs. This shows how in the West the Body and Blood of Christ is believed to become present by the act of the priest, rather than through the prayers of the entire church. Also, in the Orthodox church the body is placed in the chalice, and so both body and blood together are given to the Orthodox using a long spoon. And what of the bread used? The normative practice in Catholic churches is to use wafers, hence all the disparaging comments about "crackers" from Protestants and atheists alike. In the Orthodox church we always use leavened bread, because by using unleavened bread a key symbol of Christ being the new leaven is completely absent. These acts are sacramental acts - not magic - so the issues I have are not based on "such and such needs to happen otherwise the change doesn't occur". They are based on the fact that such acts show forth a truth and teaching of the Church. Change the act - alter the symbolic elements used - and you change what you are proclaiming.

And what is this practice of Eucharistic adoration? The gifts at Holy Communion are for the faithful to share, i.e. you eat them. The act of "saving" these items and "exposing" them for adoration is completely alien to the Orthodox understanding on what the gifts are and what the Eucharist is for (i.e. it's not for the purposes of "making" Christ's flesh so that it can be stored away and worshipped at various times). There are of course many other ways in which the Liturgy of the Orthodox differs from the Mass of the Catholics: that the priest should normally face East, the fasting canons for preparation, the psalms and Bible readings used, and of course the Creed that is said during the Liturgy has a very real difference.

There are differences too in the other Sacraments. The Catholics, and most Reformed faiths too, do not believe that humans can have real communion with God through His uncreated divine energies toward creatures, from the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. Instead, the teaching is that God "creates" Grace through which we mere mortals may experience the unknowable God. The Catholic teaching is that Heaven is the unmediated vision of the Holy Trinity. The Orthodox believe that such a vision can be attained by some saints even while still on earth, and that in Heaven we will experience the Divine in every way - not just as "a vision". These are fundamental differences in Who God is and how we know Him. I will not even begin to go into the differences regarding the Theotokos, purgatory, substitutional atonement, and of course, the view of the Pope's authority.

And these differences in belief all effect our view of Who God is. These differences also directly influence the practices of each church, so that the belief leads to the act, and the act reinforces the belief.

I remember some time ago I talked about there being only one human nature. I said at the time, that the power of human empathy cannot be underestimated. We are all united through a common humanity. Some of us will feel more united through the love of the same things. A smaller group of us will feel united specifically through a shared love of truth. Within that group, we will see more unity in those with whom we can actually agree what that truth is. These unions should not be despised. But the unity of the Church is sacramental and holistic, not depending upon our shared ideas and opinions, but of shared beliefs. There are differences within the Orthodox churches, and amongst the Orthodox churches, between Orthodox families and within Orthodox families. Differences between the Orthodox and non-Orthodox only cause strife when people insist they must be the same.

We, may get it wrong sometimes in what we say BUT God, I believe, looks at a person's heart....Not to pray with someone because they may say something incorrect is, I believe, going overboard. It is for God to judge that person and those who are Orthodox, who know what is correct, may gently instruct later but, nevertheless, during the prayer a person can be truly speaking to God. Surely, you do not need correct theology before God will hear you.

Well... this is also true. But you know... I've been in enough evangelical services and listened to their prayers to know that they often expound their own ideas and essentially lecture God (and those gathered) on what they believe and how He is to act. In short, some of their prayers become little more than another sermon. This is where I draw the line in the sand. I don't accept everything they have to say in their sermons and I don't accept everything they say in their sermon-like prayers in spite of their sincerity. But when something comes from the heart and is an honest attempt to bring glory to the Lord through prayer (and the witness of the All-holy Spirit within me does not set off any alarm bells) then I have no issues with it. But that's just me.

Well, how about not saying AMEN when they finish thier incorrect prayer instead of just avoiding altogether....

As for praying with them, I find no problem providing heretical statements are introduced into the prayer.

Still, they will be praying to different Gods. The OC will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ just because He loved us, while the Protestant will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ in order to calm down His anger.How does not theology affect our views about God?

I think you are over anthromorphising the Protestant view of God. I attended a Protestant Church for six months and I heard all about how much God loved us. In fact a favorite protestant scripture verses is John 3:16.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

As for praying with them, I find no problem providing heretical statements are introduced into the prayer.

Still, they will be praying to different Gods. The OC will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ just because He loved us, while the Protestant will pray to a God who sent Jesus Christ in order to calm down His anger.How does not theology affect our views about God?

I think you are over anthromorphising the Protestant view of God. I attended a Protestant Church for six months and I heard all about how much God loved us. In fact a favorite protestant scripture verses is John 3:16.

Also used as part of the Orthodox Gospel Reading on the Sunday before the Elevation of the Holy Cross (John 3:13-17)

First, re the Catholics, the Orthodox and the Eucharist: In the Orthodox church, the culmination of the service is the epiklisis which is when the Holy Spirit is called down to act in the Eucharist:

"Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon the Gifts here spread forth, and make this bread to be the precious Body of Thy Christ... ."

This prayer is not used in Catholic churches, and Catholics believe that when the priest says "This is my Body..." "This is my blood..." that the change occurs. This shows how in the West the Body and Blood of Christ is believed to become present by the act of the priest, rather than through the prayers of the entire church.

Have you ever been to a Catholic Church? At every mass before the words of institution the priest prays:"Lord, send your Spirit upon these gifts that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord, your Son, Jesus Christ."

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

There are differences too in the other Sacraments. The Catholics, and most Reformed faiths too, do not believe that humans can have real communion with God through His uncreated divine energies toward creatures, from the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. Instead, the teaching is that God "creates" Grace through which we mere mortals may experience the unknowable God.

This a Caricature and oversimplification of the Catholic teaching on Grace. We too believe that we become "Partakers of the Divine Nature" and that when we are in the state of grace, we have God's very life in us.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Mister Jim Dude: this is from another Jim who was formerly a member in a holiness church not unlike your own. My wife chose to remain in the Free Methodist Church. I would love to pray with her, but she refuses to pray with me - scared that I'm going to just say some rote things, or start invoking the saints, or some such nonsense (i.e. nonsense from HER point of view ) There are certainly some other issues in her spiritual life that I do not see as healthy, influences that made it easy for me to leave that denomination. As an aside, let me say I maintain a high degree of respect and affection for all of my friends in my former congregation and denomination, most of whom have remained friends - after all, that was where I was first introduced to Christ and to love Him with my entire being - my move to Orthodoxy is completely consistent with that thought. Now, on some occasions I do attend services with her. I try to simply appreciate the services for their face value: Christian musical entertainment, and a usually well presented motivational talk that is pretty generic. During the rare moments of prayer in those services, I simply silently pray as I have been taught in the Orthodox Church. I do not participate in their Communion, though my behaviour remains respectful of their actions. All of this is in keeping with my priest's knowledge, understanding, and counsel.

In the last few days our lectionary readings for the Epistle have been taken from I Corinthians where St. Paul gives his instructions concerning mixed marriages. It has given me an opportunity to evaluate my role as husband and spiritual leader, but those details fall out of the scope of a public forum.

As a husband you have a responsibility to your wife (and I to mine!) whether she is Orthodox or not. How she responds to your leadership rests between her and God. You most certainly can and should pray with your wife and children. If they won't pray with you, then you just pray FOR them twice as much!

I personally am in the situation were I am Orthodox in my faith ( I will have tell my story sometime) but my wife is non-denominational with strong ties to conservative baptist. We both were very dedicated and committed to everyone that church, which is really a church of misfits as everyone there would call ourselves, but now... It is not easy and I am trying to take it slow but even though there worship is 4-5 songs than a sermon, very quick prayer and finally reading of the ephesians benediction I have come to see the worship as extremely shallow and sad.

I personally am in the situation were I am Orthodox in my faith ( I will have tell my story sometime) but my wife is non-denominational with strong ties to conservative baptist. So what is the answer for a convert who spouse is not?

Can I message you at your provided email? Probably best to not have your wife intercept.Jim

I personally am in the situation were I am Orthodox in my faith ( I will have tell my story sometime) but my wife is non-denominational with strong ties to conservative baptist. So what is the answer for a convert who spouse is not?

Can I message you at your provided email? Probably best to not have your wife intercept.Jim