You're right, an extra 12 million people has no affect on the existing jobs, nor the ones produced. Also, I bet right around now most unemployed Americans are willing to take what ever they can get. How about you source your claims?

I can certainly source my claims. Although you yourself, even considering your ignorance, must see how ridiculous it is to suggest that I'm the one who must provide a source, considering you're the one making the positive claim by suggesting illegals cause unemployment (a claim which there is no evidence of, by the way), and considering that what I'm suggesting is just basic economics. As you can see by the chart, and as you can see by this graph, the the increase in population, civilian workforce, and illegal immigration has no correlation with unemployment. The rates of illegal immigration had been steadily rising for over two decades, yet unemployment rates have been stable (apart from recessions). Economic recessions cause unemployment, not immigrants. As you can see by the chart, starting in 2007, we've had a negative rate of illegal immigration--how does your model explain the fact that we have higher rates of unemployment with fewer rates of illegal immigrants? That is, if immigrants are the cause of unemployment?

Increases in population, whether it comes from births, legal immigration, or illegal immigration, do not raise the aggregate rate of unemployment--because additional labor means more productivity, more productivity means more jobs. You are entrenched in the classic economic fallacy of paying attention only to that which is seen, while ignoring that which is not seen. You see a poor immigrant paint someone's fence at a cheap rate, and all you see is how that job would otherwise have been filled by an American. You don't see the many other jobs that are created by the immigrants labor, the immigrants consumption, and the additional capital freed up by hiring the cheaper immigrant. This is why immigrants have no negative effect on unemployment rates--in fact, they benefit the market by providing cheap labor.

Not at all, the market is going to expand, however, there are now more people in the job market than previously. Also, if illegals weren't doing these jobs then businesses would actually have to pay a decent wage.

That's ridiculous. For one, it's not up to you to determine what a "decent wage" is. If an American really wanted to, they could find a job doing yardwork or something that paid below the minimum wage. But they don't, most would rather remain unemployed for the time being and invest their time in finding a better job. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't dog a poor immigrant just becuase he is willing to work for below minimum wage. To an illegal immigrant, those jobs do provide a "decent wage." Besides, your argument assumes that immigrants depress American wages. By and large, this isn't true, because it makes the incorrect assumption that most immigrants are competing with a great deal of Americans for labor, when in fact immigrants are largely competing with other immigrants, because most Americans have a different set of skills from illegal immigrants. The only jobs whose wages are depressed by illegal immigrants are low-skilled/high-labor oriented jobs that are typically filled by high school dropouts--if immigrants were to suddenly vanish, the speculated rise in the average wage of high school dropouts would be around $25 a week. Now, being a low-paid worker myself, an extra $50 a month isn't something that I'd just dismiss. However, you cannot by any reason claim that this extra $25 a week constitutes what most Americans would consider to be a "decent" wage. The wages of most Americans remain unaffected by illegal immigration.

Furthermore, decreased market value of labor due to increased competition does not have even an aggregate negative effect on the economy. In fact, it has a positive effect, because it frees up additional capital that could be invested in other areas of the market, stimulate the growth of other jobs. For instance, if you paid an immigrant $30 to paint your fence, rather than paying an American $50 to do the same job, then that means you have saved $20, that you can then invest in other areas of the market, and stimulate job growth in that respective sector. Perhaps due to the savings you recieved from hiring immigrants, you can now afford a new computer, and thus stimulate job growth in the IT industry, which otherwise would have been deprived of your money.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it." -Voltaire

Re: "Why is he/she/it so anti-immigration, hu

Funny, you link to a chart that has **tut-tut** all to do with immigration and its affect on unemployment, then you go on some faulty logic by a graph that you post that since more illegals have been leaving the country and the unemployment has gone up, it can't be illegals are causing unemployment.

Instead of doing something that takes half a brain to do, like look up an actual study on the effects of immigration on unskilled workers, you blather on with nonsense. Also, you ignore the fact that we lose billions of dollars annually to these people not paying income or FICA taxes.

Funny, you link to a chart that has **tut-tut** all to do with immigration and its affect on unemployment, then you go on some faulty logic by a graph that you post that since more illegals have been leaving the country and the unemployment has gone up, it can't be illegals are causing unemployment.

Are you daft? The chart proves your initial assumption incorrect. Immigration has been skyrocketing over the past few decades, yet unemployment has been stable. Why don't you care to explain that? Where are all these Americans that are being kicked out of the labor market due to immigration? Where are they? Dude, this is basic economics, let go of your xenophobic fallacies. Cheap labor coming from immigration (whether legal or illegal) increases the supply of labor, but it does not increase unemployment because the productivity coming from immigrants also increases the aggregate demand for labor. So tell me, if immigrants cause unemployment, why have unemployment rates only increased in response to recessions, and not immigration? You see hte labor market as a static pie, and thus the more people eating that pie, the less pie we have, as if the market were zero-sum. What you don't get is that the labor coming from immigrants makes the **tut-tut** pie larger.

As for your other statement, I like you call it "faulty logic" without any additional qualifiers. If your theory were correct, then we should have higher employment rates of U.S. citizens given the fact that there are fewer immigrants. Yet, as you can see by that graph, we had more immigrants in 2007 than we did in 2009, and yet since then, the rate of unemployment among low-skilled workers skyrocketted.

Instead of doing something that takes half a brain to do, like look up an actual study on the effects of immigration on unskilled workers, you blather on with nonsense.

First off, you're switiching the issue; your initial comment was that that illegal immigration results in higher unemployment rates. I have demonstrated that to be not only illogical, but also empirically false. Now all of a sudden, you're only talking about "low skilled workers." Alright, lets talk about low skilled workers. Your study didn't prove anything, it made no established connection between immigration and unemployment rates--it looked at employment rates over a five-year period (!), stated how unemployment among low skill workers slightly increased while unemployment among illegal immigrants slightly decreased, and then assumed a connection. Now, if we actually refer to my earlier graph, we see that while the unemployment rate of low skilled workers is always more severe than the other classes, it follows the general trend of the unemployment rates of everyone else. And as you see can see, the unemployment of low skilled workers is generally always on a decline except during times of recession--this is inconsistent with the idea that immigrants dramatically effect the unemployment of the low skilled, for if that were the case, then unemployment should have a positive correlation with immigration. Immigration had been rising dramatically for over two decades, and yet during that time the unemployment rates of low skilled workers (while higher than the other classes) was falling for the most part, with the only exception being times of recession. Right now the rate of unemplyoment of low skilled works is higher than it has been in a long time, and yet immigration rates are falling.

It is certainly possible that the presence of illegal immigrants makes it harder for low-skilled workers to find employment; but frankly, that logic could equally be leveled against legal immigrants, automation, and **tut-tut** native birth rates. Furthermore, if you are seriously concerned about low-skilled unemployment, then you should be advocating for the elimination of the minimum wage, which probably does more to hurt low-skilled employment than anything by pricing out workers.

If you want studies on the issue, they are abound. Here is a report from Fact Check. I didn't think you needed an actual journal discussing the issue, because all of this boils down to basic economics. Questioning why immigrants do not "take jobs" is like asking why drinking a soda doesn't decrease GDP.﻿

Also, you ignore the fact that we lose billions of dollars annually to these people not paying income or FICA taxes.

This is an argument that I can sympathize with. However, like all of your other arguments, you direct it at the wrong issue. Instead of directing blame at immigrants, you should be directing blame at the welfare state, which by the way, wastes a hell of a lot more money on American citizens than it does immigrants. You may contend that we waste billions of dollars on immigrants, but the fact is that we are wasting trillions of dollars on Americans, and we have a deficit to prove it. Besides, this contention of yours is not without controversey. And again, you ignore the fact that immigrants are a net benefit to the market by providing cheap demanded labor.

﻿

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it." -Voltaire

Re: "Why is he/she/it so anti-immigration, hu

My uncle was deported, and you have no fvcking idea what immigration is actually like. Writing it in all caps doesn't make your case.

Unless you are a fvcking Apache you are as illegal as a cannabis laden drug mule. The only distinction is that you didn't have to pass a citizenship test and learn a second language to get the most valuable legal status on earth handed to you, simply for having been born here.

"What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens ; if you don't like Hitchens you can take a number, get in line, and kiss my ass.

Re: "Why is he/she/it so anti-immigration, hu

Did you guys hear about the new immigration legislation in georgia? I'm not from georgia but my point is that Arizona started this trend, georgia is next to follow.. 18 states have similar legislation in the works. Illegal immigration is going to be extremely cracked down upon in the future. Although I do like that illegals will pay a massive fine to the state, previously everything owned by the illegals went to the federal government when they were deported. Apparently deporting illegals will be very profitable for the united states and may very well help us out of the financial crisis.

Her: So here you are. I'm a woman. And you are a man

Me: Technically.. uh huh yes

Her: so.. what are you going to do about that?

Me Thinking: *so what am i going to do? its almost like a moral decision but not really cause no one will find out*

Re: "Why is he/she/it so anti-immigration, hu

This is something that ex-host Glenn Beck seems to fear that illegals are taking over the Country because of "La Raza" or "Atzlan", plus their connections to islomic Terrorists too.

Since this is not much of a sig, I will say this, to anyone who wants to hate Toonami's Return or anything related to it without having to troll members of other message boards visiting the ASMB as well as the member here,