People often criticize teacher's unions and say how they are detrimental to education. There are certainly some points in there that are fairly made, and in certain ways the teacher's union can be a negative. Aside from the salary situation, I haven't had a bad experience teaching in a non-union state so far. However, the low salaries and lack of teacher retention is a problem, and one that will have ripple effects.

Public schools have lost more than 4,000 teachers within the first three years of their careers since 2008, the report said. Losing the newcomers is especially a problem in North Carolina, which has a strategy of developing rookies rather than bringing in veteran teachers.

A teacher who has not completed advanced education beyond a bachelor's degree will take 15 years to earn $40,000. The top salary for a teacher with more than 35 years of experience, a doctorate, a local supplement, and other pay bumps can be $80,865 for a 10-month term, the report said.

want to fix education and get better teachers? make it more competitive and give them higher pay. currently the qualifications to become a teacher are too low IMO, and the pay is WELL below what someone could go into industry or private companies and make there.

Anyone in favor of privatizing education, ending teacher tenure, and increased vouchers should come on down to NC. The latest budget ends tenure (which is just great, because I was just about to get tenure here) and will use some sort of merit system. Details aren't clear yet, but it seems that teachers will be given contracts of one to four years in length depending on performance. How performance is measured isn't clear either. The budget also calls for no increase in pay, because hey, a 1% increase in six years is plenty, right? Supplemental pay for teachers with advanced degrees also eliminated.

They've also increased funding for Teach for America and stopped funding for NC Teaching Fellows. The former produces less qualified teachers who don't stay in the profession as long than the latter.

Apparently the goal for NC Legislature is to piss off as many teachers as they can and then hope for the best.

MWB wrote:Anyone in favor of privatizing education, ending teacher tenure, and increased vouchers should come on down to NC. The latest budget ends tenure (which is just great, because I was just about to get tenure here) and will use some sort of merit system. Details aren't clear yet, but it seems that teachers will be given contracts of one to four years in length depending on performance. How performance is measured isn't clear either. The budget also calls for no increase in pay, because hey, a 1% increase in six years is plenty, right? Supplemental pay for teachers with advanced degrees also eliminated.

They've also increased funding for Teach for America and stopped funding for NC Teaching Fellows. The former produces less qualified teachers who don't stay in the profession as long than the latter.

Apparently the goal for NC Legislature is to piss off as many teachers as they can and then hope for the best.

so when you have a dozen special ed kids in your class, i wonder if they'll re-calibrate your performance metrics.

MWB wrote:Anyone in favor of privatizing education, ending teacher tenure, and increased vouchers should come on down to NC. The latest budget ends tenure (which is just great, because I was just about to get tenure here) and will use some sort of merit system. Details aren't clear yet, but it seems that teachers will be given contracts of one to four years in length depending on performance. How performance is measured isn't clear either. The budget also calls for no increase in pay, because hey, a 1% increase in six years is plenty, right? Supplemental pay for teachers with advanced degrees also eliminated.

They've also increased funding for Teach for America and stopped funding for NC Teaching Fellows. The former produces less qualified teachers who don't stay in the profession as long than the latter.

Apparently the goal for NC Legislature is to piss off as many teachers as they can and then hope for the best.

so when you have a dozen special ed kids in your class, i wonder if they'll re-calibrate your performance metrics.

that's the biggest issue I have with some sort of merit system based on how well your students score on standardized tests. how do you look at someone like a music/art teacher? How about the fact that when I started teaching, there were two chemistry teachers: I had nothing but low achieving students that my principal pretty much told me, "do your best" and the other who was toward the end of his career had nothing but honors students and advanced chem classes. How do compare him to me when it comes to how their students score?

The way they started doing test score evaluations here (called "Value Added") was to compare a student's score one year to their score the next year. So you'd see the "value" that the teacher added to that student. Obviously not the most exact science. I have no idea if that's what they plan to do going forward. And I'm sure that the people who came up with this bill have no idea either. That's the most frustrating part.

MWB wrote:Anyone in favor of privatizing education, ending teacher tenure, and increased vouchers should come on down to NC. The latest budget ends tenure (which is just great, because I was just about to get tenure here) and will use some sort of merit system. Details aren't clear yet, but it seems that teachers will be given contracts of one to four years in length depending on performance. How performance is measured isn't clear either. The budget also calls for no increase in pay, because hey, a 1% increase in six years is plenty, right? Supplemental pay for teachers with advanced degrees also eliminated.

They've also increased funding for Teach for America and stopped funding for NC Teaching Fellows. The former produces less qualified teachers who don't stay in the profession as long than the latter.

Apparently the goal for NC Legislature is to piss off as many teachers as they can and then hope for the best.

so when you have a dozen special ed kids in your class, i wonder if they'll re-calibrate your performance metrics.

that's the biggest issue I have with some sort of merit system based on how well your students score on standardized tests. how do you look at someone like a music/art teacher? How about the fact that when I started teaching, there were two chemistry teachers: I had nothing but low achieving students that my principal pretty much told me, "do your best" and the other who was toward the end of his career had nothing but honors students and advanced chem classes. How do compare him to me when it comes to how their students score?

in my wife's district, they dump all the special ed kids into one class, since they can only afford one specialist to work with them. so imagine using test scores to rate a 1st grade teacher to begin with. and then add a dozen kids with learning disabilities. ha.

my wife's district mainstreams all of their disabled students with a mandate on the teacher's responsibility to administer a co-authored (teacher/parent) IEP for those students all while getting the other students more involved with, and i quote "less teaching, more interaction"

the education system is a broken field of teachers with noone to lean on for support. bureaucrats pass bills instructing school districts on what must be done without telling them the means in which to achieve those goals. Teachers are throttled to have a more rigorous lesson plan, but not in what they teach the students, but with how the lessons plans are arranged so they include more standards.

whatever happened to giving kids information and then testing them on their comprehension/retention of said information?

The biggest issue with education is that the higher ups are not those that were great teachers and know what it takes to be a great teacher. More times than others, administrators are teachers that couldn't wait to get out of the classroom, and people making policies are people that have never stepped into the classroom. It's just like many other industries, people that are making the policies have no idea what's going on, only in this case it's the kids that hurt the most from it. Making education interesting and fun has become a thing of the past and those that try to still keep it interesting and fun while still following all the guidelines placed upon them usually get burnt out within 5 years.

It's not really surprising, but it is still amazing how little people who make these decisions know about education, classrooms, kids, or testing. There's also quite a large portion of the public in general that isn't well-versed, or even have a limited knowledge of this. Pretty sad, and it's what leads to these poor decisions.

After all, politically, the state would have a great deal to lose by prosecuting cheaters. Some of the most damning evidence of cheating has come from Philadelphia, a district run by the state since 2002, and from charters, including a Chester school run by a prominent leader in Pennsylvania’s self-described school-reform movement who is a backer of Gov. Tom Corbett. But more than that, bubble tests have become the high-stakes centerpiece of American public education; when the scores are tainted, it could throw an entire way of running schools into question.

MWB wrote:Anyone in favor of privatizing education, ending teacher tenure, and increased vouchers should come on down to NC. The latest budget ends tenure (which is just great, because I was just about to get tenure here) and will use some sort of merit system. Details aren't clear yet, but it seems that teachers will be given contracts of one to four years in length depending on performance. How performance is measured isn't clear either. The budget also calls for no increase in pay, because hey, a 1% increase in six years is plenty, right? Supplemental pay for teachers with advanced degrees also eliminated.

They've also increased funding for Teach for America and stopped funding for NC Teaching Fellows. The former produces less qualified teachers who don't stay in the profession as long than the latter.

Apparently the goal for NC Legislature is to piss off as many teachers as they can and then hope for the best.

Welcome to the rest of the world. The teaching profession hasn't been singled out for pay freezes and other hardships over the last six years. Budgets are tighter in school districts because people that support the budgets, tax payers, lost their jobs.

Teachers aren't dealing with any unique hardships that the rest of the working world isn't.

Merit isn't what it used to be? Check.Ambiguous performance metrics? Check.Some co-workers end up in better positions than others? Check.

Pay for teaching is bad. One of the pluses was supposed to be increased job security (not guaranteed, but increased as tenure doesn't mean you can't be fired).

I didn't say teachers were being singled out. But you pay for what you get. I work in a high performing area, but am seeing many good teachers leave for other districts and higher pay. It will have an effect on the quality of education.

MWB wrote:Anyone in favor of privatizing education, ending teacher tenure, and increased vouchers should come on down to NC. The latest budget ends tenure (which is just great, because I was just about to get tenure here) and will use some sort of merit system. Details aren't clear yet, but it seems that teachers will be given contracts of one to four years in length depending on performance. How performance is measured isn't clear either. The budget also calls for no increase in pay, because hey, a 1% increase in six years is plenty, right? Supplemental pay for teachers with advanced degrees also eliminated.

They've also increased funding for Teach for America and stopped funding for NC Teaching Fellows. The former produces less qualified teachers who don't stay in the profession as long than the latter.

Apparently the goal for NC Legislature is to piss off as many teachers as they can and then hope for the best.

Welcome to the rest of the world. The teaching profession hasn't been singled out for pay freezes and other hardships over the last six years. Budgets are tighter in school districts because people that support the budgets, tax payers, lost their jobs.

Teachers aren't dealing with any unique hardships that the rest of the working world isn't.

Merit isn't what it used to be? Check.Ambiguous performance metrics? Check.Some co-workers end up in better positions than others? Check.

These sorts of responses are part of the problem. Comparing industry and the privatized world to the education of our youth isn't even apples and oranges, it's apples and staplers... so far from one another the comparison is ridiculous. The budgets tightening up isn't the biggest problem in school districts around the nation... in fact, I'd say that's toward the bottom of the list when it comes to problems with education. The biggest issue is the large number of requirements placed upon teachers that are ridiculously unattainable... test scores, lesson planning, standardized testing in general, lack of support from administration and the community, the fact that so many students have no one at home reinforcing their education and teachers have become baby sitters, parents and educators, and the list goes on. The problem is MUCH MUCH deeper than budgets and teacher pay, but hey, let's focus on how cushy of a job those teachers have with their outrageous paychecks.

count2infinity wrote:These sorts of responses are part of the problem. Comparing industry and the privatized world to the education of our youth isn't even apples and oranges, it's apples and staplers... so far from one another the comparison is ridiculous. The budgets tightening up isn't the biggest problem in school districts around the nation... in fact, I'd say that's toward the bottom of the list when it comes to problems with education. The biggest issue is the large number of requirements placed upon teachers that are ridiculously unattainable... test scores, lesson planning, standardized testing in general, lack of support from administration and the community, the fact that so many students have no one at home reinforcing their education and teachers have become baby sitters, parents and educators, and the list goes on. The problem is MUCH MUCH deeper than budgets and teacher pay, but hey, let's focus on how cushy of a job those teachers have with their outrageous paychecks.

And at my job, your level (and corresponding pay) is most largely a function of number of years of service while the assignments handed out only take into account who can get it done, so 60 year olds who make $50K more than me but can't pull their weight skate by with admin tasks. Goals are written ambiguously as employees are unsure of their specific tasking through the year so they often get assessed at the end of the year based on metrics that are unrelated. My dead beat co-worker that I can't count on for support to get their stuff done forces me to do their work too just so I can deliver on my project. If layoffs come and you don't know somebody who knows somebody that can get you on another project, you are SOL. And to top it all off, the job is nothing like I thought it would be when I signed up for it.

Signed-

The rest of the working world

I'm sure the guys busting their humps doing manual labor all day really sympathize with either of our plights. I know this won't be a popular opinion here, but there are enough whiny teachers that make the whole lot look bad. Again, your situation is no different than anybody else punching the clock day after day.

For some reason you want to pigeon hole this conversation into, "Teachers just whine all the time and everyone else has it just as bad." Not sure why. I'm more interested in talking about ways to improve education. Pretty sure c2i is in the same boat. Obviously I'm pissed about the pay aspect, but I'm more concerned about the ineptitude of legislators and the cavalier attitudes that you represent. This is what will continue to bring the education system lower. There are so many good to great schools that I fear will begin to falter as we go down this path.

As an aside, kingsid, what is your stake in this? Kids in school? Just curious about how a person's situation helps shape their attitude on this issue.