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Originally Posted by BigRob

This is a weak, weak response. One of these players was a 1st round draft pick and one was 4th round draft pick.

One stepped in for Kendrell Bell when he couldn't stay healthy and seized a starting spot he didn't let go of for 5 years. When Hightower can match Foote's career production, then you can come up with a better argument.

Hightower is what he is. He will be a good ILB. Just like Jerod Mayo of top ten fame is what he is. They are both decent ILB'ers.

Well then we agree somewhat. See I think comparing an established 11 year veterans stats to that of a rookie is weak. I think it is more appropriate to compare what each did in year one than for us to compare what one did in year 11 to what one did in year 1. Apples to Apples not Apples to Oranges.

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Originally Posted by Dee Dub

Well then we agree somewhat. See I think comparing an established 11 year veterans stats to that of a rookie is weak. I think it is more appropriate to compare what each did in year one than for us to compare what one did in year 11 to what one did in year 1. Apples to Apples not Apples to Oranges.

See what I said, was come back to me when Hightower has a career that is even comparable to Foote's. I didn't say to compare them now. It is stupid to put year one comparisons on players with different draft slots.

If Hightower has the same type of career as Foote, he should be a very happy man. Good player, not a great one.

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Originally Posted by BigRob

See what I said, was come back to me when Hightower has a career that is even comparable to Foote's. I didn't say to compare them now. It is stupid to put year one comparisons on players with different draft slots.

If Hightower has the same type of career as Foote, he should be a very happy man. Good player, not a great one.

But as usual you missed the entire point. ikestops85 was doing exactly that...and thus I responded to it. Maybe you should read what was actually said before I responded to it?

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But as usual you missed the entire point. ikestops85 was doing exactly that...and thus I responded to it. Maybe you should read what was actually said before I responded to it?

and you both missed what I was trying to point out. There is a perception that the Steelers, and LeBeau specifically, doesn't play rookies because his system is too complicated. I was trying to point out that when you have a solid veteran in front of said rookie why should the rookie start.

To make my point I used the stats of Foote and Hightower. If we had drafted Hightower should he have started over Foote. I say he wouldn't and that is not because he is a rookie. It is because a veteran like Foote can outplay a rookie like Hightower. That doesn't mean that Hightower won't end up being a better linebacker than Foote. It just means that if you want your best 11 on the field you would go with Foote over Hightower this year.

So comparing veterans to rookies is like comparing apples to oranges. Coaches are forced to make that comparison game after game. On a team stacked with decent players like the steelers the apples are going to win except in very rare cases.

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Originally Posted by ikestops85

and you both missed what I was trying to point out. There is a perception that the Steelers, and LeBeau specifically, doesn't play rookies because his system is too complicated. I was trying to point out that when you have a solid veteran in front of said rookie why should the rookie start.

To make my point I used the stats of Foote and Hightower. If we had drafted Hightower should he have started over Foote. I say he wouldn't and that is not because he is a rookie. It is because a veteran like Foote can outplay a rookie like Hightower. That doesn't mean that Hightower won't end up being a better linebacker than Foote. It just means that if you want your best 11 on the field you would go with Foote over Hightower this year.

So comparing veterans to rookies is like comparing apples to oranges. Coaches are forced to make that comparison game after game. On a team stacked with decent players like the steelers the apples are going to win except in very rare cases.

It was weak sauce by both of you. How can you really compare players from different teams that play in different systems and call it apples to apples?

Hightower will be an average 3-4 ILB and Foote developed into an average 3-4 ILB. Big deal.

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I agree with you a lot about this roster for 2014. 2013 is a little trickier. I think Hampton may come back on a vet minimum deal.

Harrison could come back after he is cut. His cap number is just too high and he is too old with a developing injury issue.

Keisel, Foote, and even Taylor are tough calls for 2013. If the Steelers sign K. Lewis, they may go with Allen, Lewis, and a high draft pick at CB.

Hampton may come back. I don't see a reason to bring him back. 2 down player who gives you a play every other series. I was so shocked what Mack did to him 1 on 1 game 1. He was a little better the 2nd but he should hang them up.

Steelers have brought former Steelers back but I can't recall them ever release & re-sign. Harrison was a great player for the Steelers & I will miss him. Releasing him will create 2-5 mil dead money. He has close to 3 mil "Misc" bonus in 2013 & 2014 that may be a roster bonus which can be avoided if the release him before due. That would put his dead money at 2 mil while freeing up 8 mil for 2013. Given his tenure, his vet min will probably be in the 1.5 mil range & guaranteed if he is on the roster week 1. I would say he may be an option if there is an injury after week 1 if he is still on the streets. I believe it is time to move on. They released Porter at 30 coming off a 7 sack year in March before he was due a 1 mil roster bonus. I believe Harrison's is in the 1.5 range. It may be the exact same situation.

I agree with the Keisel, Foote, & Taylor being difficult.

I have heard Foote will take less to return. That may be a good situation for the Steelers to explore. Insurance for Spence & will give him time to recover. Also could give Sylvester one last look. That is where the "mystery" lies right now. Only the Steelers will know about Spence. Pre injury...He was your 2013 starter & may have moved Foote to the bench in 2012. If they feel he will be healthy & return to form, I don't think the look early if Foote & Sylveter are here. But like I said...It is a mystery.

Keisel hasn't shown much drop off if any. Will be in a contract year in 2013. Releasing him frees up about 2.8 mil. If healthy, he may be a fall back plan "If" they need cap space.

Taylor is still playing at a high level. He has a 9.4 hit in 2013 & a 10.4 in 2014. It is hard sifting through Misc Bonuses after retructures but I believe cutting Taylor this year will only net 2.5 mil while creating 6.9 dead money. Releasing him next year will create about 3.4 dead money but have a savings of 7 mil.

Based on that, I belive Taylor will be here for 2013. Keisel should be unless they become cap strapped to sign Lewis and/or Wallace. Foote, if the reports are correct, may come back on a 1 year deal if he will take the "pay cut" he spoke of. Question is...What is a pay cut for him? Foote made 3.6 mil last season.

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Originally Posted by JUST-PLAIN-NASTY

Hampton may come back. I don't see a reason to bring him back. 2 down player who gives you a play every other series. I was so shocked what Mack did to him 1 on 1 game 1. He was a little better the 2nd but he should hang them up.

Steelers have brought former Steelers back but I can't recall them ever release & re-sign. Harrison was a great player for the Steelers & I will miss him. Releasing him will create 2-5 mil dead money. He has close to 3 mil "Misc" bonus in 2013 & 2014 that may be a roster bonus which can be avoided if the release him before due. That would put his dead money at 2 mil while freeing up 8 mil for 2013. Given his tenure, his vet min will probably be in the 1.5 mil range & guaranteed if he is on the roster week 1. I would say he may be an option if there is an injury after week 1 if he is still on the streets. I believe it is time to move on. They released Porter at 30 coming off a 7 sack year in March before he was due a 1 mil roster bonus. I believe Harrison's is in the 1.5 range. It may be the exact same situation.

I agree with the Keisel, Foote, & Taylor being difficult.

I have heard Foote will take less to return. That may be a good situation for the Steelers to explore. Insurance for Spence & will give him time to recover. Also could give Sylvester one last look. That is where the "mystery" lies right now. Only the Steelers will know about Spence. Pre injury...He was your 2013 starter & may have moved Foote to the bench in 2012. If they feel he will be healthy & return to form, I don't think the look early if Foote & Sylveter are here. But like I said...It is a mystery.

Keisel hasn't shown much drop off if any. Will be in a contract year in 2013. Releasing him frees up about 2.8 mil. If healthy, he may be a fall back plan "If" they need cap space.

Taylor is still playing at a high level. He has a 9.4 hit in 2013 & a 10.4 in 2014. It is hard sifting through Misc Bonuses after retructures but I believe cutting Taylor this year will only net 2.5 mil while creating 6.9 dead money. Releasing him next year will create about 3.4 dead money but have a savings of 7 mil.

Based on that, I belive Taylor will be here for 2013. Keisel should be unless they become cap strapped to sign Lewis and/or Wallace. Foote, if the reports are correct, may come back on a 1 year deal if he will take the "pay cut" he spoke of. Question is...What is a pay cut for him? Foote made 3.6 mil last season.

I think we have to all realize that it is highly unlikely Spence is ready to play in 2013...if ever. We have an issue at ILB that eithe Foote or anothe player will need to hold down for one more year.

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I think we have to all realize that it is highly unlikely Spence is ready to play in 2013...if ever. We have an issue at ILB that eithe Foote or anothe player will need to hold down for one more year.

That is why it may make sense to bring Foote back "IF" he will take less. I don't think Spence will "never" return to form. I think he will be on the PUP worst case in 2013. If we were talking about a CB, S, WR, or RB...We may have to use the "until he shows it" approach in the draft. I think there is enough in Spence's favor & what the Steelers can do in 2013 to not panic. However, if a guy like Te'O or any ILB falls to them in the 1st two rounds that is graded high and shouldn't be on the board....You take him. You 4-3 guys will like an option that may arise down the road in 2014.

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Originally Posted by ikestops85

Please tell me what defensive starter should be replaced by a rookie. I really want to know. I'm sure many will say Foote but he had a very good year ... much better than a board favorite last year ... cough ... Hightower ... cough. Hightower with 60 tackles, 4 sacks and 2 FRs. Foote with 113 tackles, 4 sacks, 2 FFs and 2 FRs.

We could have been starting Lewis for years but he was horrible and it had nothing to do with DL's system. It had to do with him adjusting to the pro game
So board gurus ... do you go with the better player now or the rookie with the higher upside?

This is an excellent point and you will not get a meaningful response from those who complaint that it takes rookies too long to see the field with the Steelers. First, talented rookies with weak starters in front of them start early - guys like Hampton, Kendrell Bell, etc. Cortez Allen contributed as a rookie and played more this year because he showed that he was ready. Lewis didn't play early because he was not ready to play in the NFL. He had the meltdown in the preseason game last (or maybe two years ago) and was not ready.

Giving rookies a year or two to learn and be slowly worked into games is a luxury - not a problem that needs to be solved.

Moreover, look around the NFL. The rookies that start typically do so on bad teams. There are two reasons for this - first, bad teams pick higher in the draft and are able to select better players. Second, bad teams are bad for a reason - usually because their starters stink. Finally, if you're not playing for anything, you can allow a rookie to make mistakes.

A final point - most rookies are not stars. Leaguewide, a few guys step in and contribute as rookies, but they are the exception, not the rule. Many players, even those in - gasp - a 4-3 defense, take time to adjust to the NFL and take time before they contribute at a high level.