RADIO WARS: Why 97.5 Crushes It With Their Stream

This morning, reader (@SmartySampson) alerted me to Josh Innes’ Tweets about the streaming ratings – in which WIP is getting abused by 97.5 – being important but flawed. Josh and I had a cordial(!) exchange. We’re mostly in agreement that the Nielsen system for measuring ratings is extremely flawed given that it’s based on very small sample sizes of ones and tens of people. But I also think you can’t cherry pick when you do and don’t want to use its findings. Josh was all too eager to proclaim ratings victories of around 0.5-1.0 points over Mike Missanelli last year. But now that he’s losing, and getting beat in the stream by almost 3 full points, suddenly the system is flawed. The fact is, the stream is measured from the same pool of people and in the same manner as over-the-air ratings– it just listens for a different tone coming out of a different box. So if you’re going to use one number, you have to use the other.

Innes informed me that Nielsen has developed a way to measure the stream directly – here’s the article, of which I’m embarrassed to say I was unaware – and they will soon give stations the ability to measure their hard stream numbers, and combine their OTA rating with the stream for a more accurate result (though it still sounds like there’s some fuzzy sampling going on). Innes then questioned the fact that 97.5’s streaming rating is nearly 30x greater than WIP’s, and wondered how that could be. I agree that it’s high, and sample size certainly comes into play here. But it’s no surprise that 97.5 would beat WIP on the stream by a substantial margin.

There are a few reasons.

First off, WIP’s demo is older and more prone to work outside or somewhere otherwise away from a desk. 97.5’s audience is younger and more likely to be working in an office, making them more likely to stream. This is a gross generalization, but I’d argue it’s generally accurate. There will of course be exceptions, so don’t bother commenting that you’re a 26-year-old lawyer who listens to Mike and Ike while going over case briefs.

But, content notwithstanding, equally important is the ease, or lack thereof, in using the respective streaming options. As you can see in the video, cueing up the WIP stream using Safari – which admittedly slowed things down a bit because it pauses many video ads to save processing power and battery – took roughly 85 seconds until I could hear Ike Reese’s gravely tones. 97.5’s? 8 seconds from URL bar to Rob Ellis. [If 8 Seconds To Ellis isn’t a band name by tomorrow, somebody is doing it wrong.]

And that’s just on desktop, where navigating is easier and quicker.

Let’s talk about mobile, where a majority of streams occur.

97.5 has its own app with a play button prominently featured.

WIP, being part of CBS (for now), uses the Radio.com app. So here’s what it’s like to find the “WIP” app compared to the 97.5 app.

WIP:

97.5:

There’s hurdle number one. The Average Joe looking for WIP will have to be aware that WIP lives in the generic Radio.com app, which WIP does promote on air.

Then you have to actually use the damn thing.

97.5:

Radio.com:

From here, assuming that you’re aware that WIP lives in this generic app complete with lefty rock stations, you can either scroll to find WIP, or click menu-sports and find it there.

Nothing in the Radio.com app itself is a deal-breaker, but I’d argue it’s a non-starter for many that searching for 94 WIP in the App Store yields no relevant results. [You can also listen to WIP in TuneIn Radio and iHeart Radio, but again, it’s generic and not immediately obvious that you can, you know, do that. I’m not even sure it’s promoted as such.] And even once you get both apps, you’re still an extra 2-3 clicks in the Radio.com app compared to the 97.5 app. People are dumb, and lazy. Just ask Google. Take a look at their homepage. Or Amazon’s. Neither are pretty, but both are effective because a cantaloupe could use them. Facebook just gave an entire presentation yesterday on why a webpage taking 10 seconds to load on mobile is a turn-off for many. It’s a tiny pain point, but one that disrupts a busy day. The same argument can be applied to these two apps. I do this for a living, and know where to look, and I myself have given up on WIP when attempting tune-in for a quick interview or conversation that someone tweeted me about, because there were just too many steps and ads. This only happened once with 97.5: the first time after they updated their site and asked me to login. This is a pain in the ass, but also probably a worthwhile trade-off for them: They get your data, and allow users to use Facebook or Twitter to login. I don’t think it’s anywhere near the level of annoyance as WIP’s video pop-up ads and confusing app environment. Do they probably lose some listeners because of the login requirement? Yes, but this is the same trade-off I make with surveys– I do better with 70% of people answering the questions, which generate revenue, than with 100% of people not answering any. For 97.5, the login request is obvious and a one-time hurdle. You know what you have to do to listen– sign up. Hardly ideal, but it’s a one-time issue compared to an every-time issue. Huge difference.

So, between the listening demo, desktop and mobile streaming options, and maybe even the content itself, it’s no surprise that 97.5 is winning big-time in streaming. Hard-measuring of raw streaming numbers will be a welcome change, but I’m not so sure it will do anything to boost WIP’s ratings. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if it hurt them. THE MUSIC NOW:

65 Comments

SwearengenApril 13, 2016 at 3:26 pm

“Nothing in the Radio.com app itself is a deal-breaker”
Probably not all that accurate. The radio.com is one of the least stable apps I’ve ever used and the average person probably isn’t just going to deal with it like I do.

Everyone knows that Kyle Scott has an axe to burn with WIP and has and will always write articles denigrating them and their
radio personalities and their ownership group regardless of the truth.
If you want the truth, find the Arbitron ratings yourself.

Innes’ fingers are too fat to even use a phone. How can he click on the play button? HIS FINGERS ARE FAT like him. He is such a gross, fat slob with horrbile ratings it’s so bad let me tell you.

Heard Josh was fired in Houston and Andy Bloom nose candy brought him to Philly because he is a drug addicted lunatic. So Innes is a big fat slob who knows nothing about sports, his rabbi has left the building and he is still fat.

Sign up is a deal breaker for me. It’s 2016, I want my content and I want it quickly. I don’t want to fill out forms, I don’t really want you building a database with all of my information. The business model is to make money by selling advertising against the radio content, so all they should care about is that i’m listening. they can still do surveys and get info without making me sign up. And…if you clear your cookies, like most people today do off and on, then you have to re-login. 80% of users forget their passwords fairly regularly, which leads to significant abandonment. Honestly, I’d rather sit through a 30 second spot than sign up for something, and I definitely don’t want to forget my password and have to go through resetting it, and all that jazzzzzz

Kyle, I made Marc and Josh BOTH aware yesterday that while i was streaming WIP in the 5PM hour TWICE the show was interupped by commercials by Angelo and Rhea and then MICHAEL BARKANN and Angelo again during drive time, I mean If they [;an on beating Mike they might want to clear that problem up. And that wasn`t the first time that`s happened either

If your Josh and your bonus is dependent on ratings and the station is sabatoging the stream how can you tolerate this. How can your agent not be aware of this. Why aren’t you screaming at Spike and the station executives that by doing this you are losing listeners on the stream and many of those are same listeners who tune in on the radio. It’s unbelievable. When you drop commercials in the middle of a call the listener will switch to the other station.

So fucking true, his GK crap drags the show to a snails pace with callers. And I cant stand Martinez, when Mike says what the categories are, it’s like Martinez ingested paint chips. For instance, MM: ” the category is things that are white”. Martinez: “hmmm, things that are white? i dont get it, sounds confusing Mike, can you give a sample question”….. fucking tard

Don’t tell me they let Farzetta go? I don’t listen much to that show but I know I have always liked Marc Farzetta and figured he might bring a level of actual sports talk and adult conversation to the show – and by adult I don’t mean strip clubs. I can listen to teenagers on the bus for that stuff.

I listen to the Fanatic on the Iheartradio app and for people who dont want to have multiple sources that probably makes a bigggg different. Are you sure WIP is on iHeart? I just did a search WIP, 610WIP and 94WIP on the live station tab and I get No Results. I would be willing to bet a HUGE majority of 97.5’s streamers come from iHeart and that drives the difference. Also, Radio.com is basically the app equivalent of AOL or Netscape.

In my current office and previous offices I have worked in, multiple co-workers stream 97.5 via their desktop or phone app. The demographic I usually see who does it is between 25 to 35. Most of WIP listeners are much older than this. Their listeners do not know how to “stream” from their computer or even further probably don’t even have a cell phone that can support an app. If they do have some type of smart phone, I can bet they don’t even know where to start to even find the iheartwhatever or care for that matter. The bottom line is, WIP is an old man station and their fans are listening the old fashion way. 97.5 targets a much younger audience and it shows in the stream ratings. So no, Josh Innes, the system is not flawed. Your listeners just suck at technology and that hurts you. Deal with it.

nothing, and i mean nothing, is going to stop innes from getting on his cross and crying about something

the dude has been given ever opportunity in the world to be successful at wip and he’s thrown it all away because he’s a big fat loser. his show sucks. its not because of spike or because of hollis, it’s because josh isn’t very likable. hes not knowledge or funny. very few people find him entertaining. hes grating and his voice is super annoying, forced and fake.

all the stuff going on here and other blogs and sites means nothing. its a fraction of the audience. most people sampled innes, found him repulsive, and tuned in elsewhere. he cant understand that. i=maybe when hes the sidekick on the morning zoo in tucson next year he will.

Boy you can say that again. I gave him a few months and it got worse. He hates this city and makes it known with his disdainful remarks and putdowns. He is a very unlikable person and I am willing to bet he does not have many friends. He stabs co-workers in the back and defends it by saying he is honest – no it is actually being insecure and rude. It is always someone else’s fault, like most bullies he can dish it out but can’t take it. He is vulgar, not funny or witty and has no filter or sensitivity. His is a disc jockey not a sports analyst and he should go back to it. No matter how many breaks he gets, he somehow seems to mess it up if his work record is any indication. Tony Bruno’s “retirement” with no notice speaks volumes.

I stream stations a lot both in the car and in the office but it is usually to listen to stations from other parts of the country. If I am in the area and can get WIP (or 97.5) clear on my radio in my office and in the car, why wouldn’t I listen on the radio? I am only 37 not one of the old WIP farts you speak of.

Can you explain how WIP listeners would be more prone to work outside? What does age have to do with that conclusion? Do younger workers no longer go into say construction, and older workers don’t have offices? Am I missing something?

No, its that a majority of WIP’s audience is either over the age of 116 or are the stupid, uneducated people that work outside for a living. Anybody with any education worthy enough of having a stable job with a roof involved is too smart to tolerate ANY of the hosts on WIP. Jesus Christ I mean if Ike ran for President I would have to vote for trump over him and think he would sweep the delegates, and thats coming from a fanatical liberal. The overweight afternoon host isn’t even worthy of me thinking of something to say about him he’s so bad. WIP is an absolute disgrace of a business and its befuddling how the CBS hierarchy has allowed it to spin this out of control.

Kyle, are you aware that WIP drops commercials right in the middle of callsApril 13, 2016 at 6:00 pm

This is using the TuneIn app but I assume it’s the same on the CBS radio or iHeart app. Today for instance I was listening to Josh around 2:25. I’m listening to a call and suddenly I hear a 30 second spot. This has happened many times. I’ve assumed in the past that the producer hit the dump button because the caller was saying something they didn’t want on the air. I don’t believe that is the case. It occurs so often that the only conclusion is WIP inserts these commercials and just picks up where the interruption started. Is the station that desperate that they can’t earn enough revenue from the regular commercial breaks. I can tell you this never happens when you listen to CBS owned WFAN in NY. You know when WIP has to dump a caller because Josh will comment on it.

I’ll put aside Kyle’s absurd generalizations about age, etc. etc. and get right to it.

First off, both stations can be heard on tunein.com. It’s the only way I listen unless I’m in the car. More often than not the car is in Jersey, and sometimes 97.5 cuts out a bit . FM signals aren’t great to begin with, and 94.1 can make it’s way up to New Brunswick in the day time (not Canada). So WIP wins with signal.

Yet when it comes to ratings it’s still close and yet Fanatic has less to work with. That’s not great for WIP, but probably doesn’t matter all that much to advertisers.

I’m sure ad folks are telling advertisers that the streaming #s are favorable to 18-34 because over 65% of millennials listen to radio online at least once a month, and that number shrinks as you go up in age. So there’s something to be said for the “age” thing, but in the case of Philly sports fans, I highly doubt it has much to do with the “why” one station is killing the other. If you WANT a certain something you’ll go through the rigors to get it. If WIP is in fact better than the Fanatic, fans will seek it out. Heck, I listen to Stern as much as I can for free, and I jump through hoops to get it!

If it’s good, and you want it, you’ll get it.

This is the crux of the issue here (btw, I should mention I worked in radio management and sales in the mid-90s for both Nassau and Greater Media back when you could earn a living).

I still have a few friends in the business and the general consensus is this: Cataldi dominates because he’s good and an institution but the rest of the shows basically share audience the entire day. There’s no show on either station which stands apart but Ms. Mikey is starting to pull away a bit. Josh’s style is getting old but in the beginning it had it’s adherents.

I tend to agree with this.

If you had to ask me which guy is more talented I would probably lean toward Innes but that doesn’t matter. Mike is putting on a better sports program for the people of greater Philadelphia. If you stuck both guys in Charlotte I think Innes would absolutely mop up Mike but we’re not in Charlotte. In other words I think Josh is miscast and because of it he’s trying way too hard. Borderline insecure. Listening to him talk about the Flyers the last couple of days has been painful. You can tell he feels entirely out of place because he doesn’t know the sport but more to the point he doesn’t know the history of the Flyers. You can get away with it in football because everyone knows football, and basketball too. Not with hockey.

I listened to the Fanatic mostly since Snider died but did tune into Angelo and actually heard Josh when Howard Eskin was on. That was good but it only proves my point that Josh is too much of an outsider.

I think in the end whether it’s streaming or terrestrial, Josh is not going to overcome Mike and that’s sad because Mike isn’t THAT good. He’s decent but he’s not great. He’s not as good as the guys in New York (sorry guys) on WFAN. Howard was that. Even their young guys are better.

It doesn’t help that Brian Haddad is not overly entertaining and Mike Barkann is just flat out bad. Ike is getting shortchanged in a big way sitting next to that guy.

Fanatic will continue to beat WIP if Josh Innes is one of the two most important voices on the station. If he ever moves to mornings you may as well say goodbye to all your ratings. Although he could make a decent #2 but he’s too much of a loudmouth to accept that.

Neither station needs to be difficult or slow to connect.
I use Tune-In Radio and pin WIP to start screen
The Fanatic can be pinned to start screen the same way using i-Heart or Radyo
Pinning shortcuts to start screen and they both connect in seconds.

Gets overpowered by other stations entering the AC Expressway off 73 and on Rt 295 1/2 way between 73 and Trenton. Both stations should not have left AM. You have to use an Internet app in your car if you want to listen to 97.5 outside of a limited listening area

I work down by AC and just discovered the 97.5 app. Now half the people in my office listen to it in their cars or at their desk where they didnt have access before.

94.1 comes in crackly there and if they had an app as good as 97.5 i’d probably listen to that instead as i like Innes and mike and ike over the 97.5 lineup. But for that ease i’ll listen to 97.5 all day uninterrupted.

WIP is also on TuneIn, which is probably the best experience overall. They should advertise this fact on air. And Neilson is a terrible way to quantify online listernership. They are basically like Alexa in terms of being directional online. This isn’t a hard challenge to solve. They must have tried to and the numbers weren’t good enough to bring up in an argument. You should push them on it.