pt_PT_ao90 variant for pt_PT locale request

Due to the fact that we have two variants in Portuguese (Portugal, pt_PT), a new orthographic reform variant (AO90), which is not on translate.wordpress.org yet, and the default pre-reform variant, and that we have offline tools to convert pre-AO90 to AO90, we initially thought of a way to still have only one publicly editable branch, the default variant, and the new one, that should only be edited by GTE/PTE, that would import the converted versions.

This would make possible to maintain only one branch, and manually update the AO90 variant.

Having a read-only variant would make possible to use the available offline tools to do the automatic conversion. We’d maintain the default variant and import the converted language files to this second variant, that would be read-only or edited only by GTE/PTE.

In short…

As we talked with @ocean90 during WordCamp Europe, a “read-only” or GTE-only variant is not yet possible.

We’ll also be suggesting portuguese language users who want to use the new AO90 variant to use a preferred languages plugin, like the one from @swissspidy (https://github.com/swissspidy/preferred-languages), that will allow them to have a fallback in case the new variant still has no translations for a theme or plugin they use, with the default pt_PT version being the first fallback, for example.

On a second phase, If and when we can have a read-only variant, it’ll be easy to manage. In the meantime, let’s try not to get too many contributions in this new variant, alerting users to the automatic conversion process we’re going to do offline.

The read-only mode
As a variant, the permissions are the same as the default translation, so current pt_PT PTE will have write permission to this new variant we want to be read-only. Only a new locale would have completely different permissions. Still, variant seems to be the right way to do it.
Is it possible to implement this independent permission-per-variant?
Having just GTE allowed to edit the variant is virtually a read-only mode, while it doesn’t formally exist.

Informing translators about this workflow
As we pretend this variant to be somehow automatically processed (for now I can onle imagine a semi-automatic GTE dependent process), its very important to let translators know where their contributions must be made, and how the conversion process ocurrs.
I believe already exists a suggestion of a short message from the Translation Team, we just hope it can be implemented soon. Of course this information will be in our Translators Guide.

Thank you @yoavf. I always enjoy hearing you on l10n and i18n. Your talk in Paris, as the one in Sevilla in 2015, were two of my favorite. And, of course, your contributions to this discussion about the orthographic reform.

What you suggest was our first approach. And this year it became more likely, as we found out that Priberam, through it’s product FLiP, has entered the WordPress ecosystem with a plugin for proofreading and conversion to the new orthography (premium). Priberam is a well established company that pioneered proof reading and add-on dictionaries in the Portuguese language, for decades now, in Portugal, Brazil and other portuguese speaking countries. For example, large media use their Adobe or MS Word extensions for proofreading and adopt their dictionaries’ criteria. They were WordCamp Lisboa 2017 sponsors and offered help and access to their conversion API, which is not opened as far as I can tell, since their business relies, exactly, on maintaining it closed for large amounts of data.

Some of us believe that relying on a closed conversion API is a point against creating a plugin within GlotPress to do the conversion.

Another point is that we have been around too long to try to solve this need. With almost no developers involved, especially those who know GlotPress and know how to make it happen, is too complex a task for translators. You can see that the various attempts to make this issue an active issue in the flow of GlotPress and WordPress translations didn’t get enough track. Although some suggestions have applications in other contexts, namely informal vs. formal, for example.

We have free tools for doing the conversion offline, but they’re also not opened. The complexity of the orthographic reform and the numerous exceptions it creates make it, I believe, almost impossible to integrate the conversion criteria into a plugin developed by us. That is, it is not a simple script.

This issue really needs a total rethink and reconsideration on what is being asked here.

The Portuguese Republic has only one official orthography and the oldest one is obsolete as per 2013, and totally optional for those who would like to keep on using it. The official orthography should be the official one and not the optional one.

It is of most importance to guarantee that people who would like to contribute on the translating to European Portuguese, should be granted the use of the official orthographic rules and not the opposite, i.e., the imposition on the use of the obsolete and not any longer valid one.

Following what we can read here, it seems that the plan will be to keep on imposing the old orthographic rules onto the voluntary people who would like to contribute on the translations and not what should be the right thing to do: Make the actual official orthography valid on the Portuguese Republic to the the priority and/or the standard for pt_PT translations.

People who would like to use the old rules, should be free to do so, but the WordPress and / or GlotPress (and alikes) platforms should not be following the obsolete rules. If someone wants to do it using the obsolete and not any longer official orthographic rules, they should do it by using plugins and/or other ways, but not this plan.

The national official rules should be official standard on WordPress as well.

This is really scary. I’m really afraid that the freedom to participate on the translation of either WordPress ‘core’ and/or WordPress themes and plugins would not be possible if one writes according to the official rules.

That would be really odd, you follow the national rules but the national rules would not be considered to be valid on the WordPress local communities…?

@vitormadeira when the community agrees on making the AO90 the default it WILL happen. But you know… the variant must exist. So your rants on this post can have a contrary effect on your will. If the variant is not created, you’ll NEVER be able to make it default.

So, please, just PLEASE, stop doing on this thread what you do every day in the Portuguese community, which is to insult and question everyone and everything because WordPress is not 100% the way you want it to be.

This is absolute nonsense @vitormadeira, and it has been explained to you over and over again. Again… No one was or is limited in their freedom to contribute to translations. What happens is that we have an automatic way of converting the old orthography to the new reform orthography (AO90) and, therefore, to maintain the consolidation, it does not make sense to have two parallel translations, ie, it is simpler to have a pre-AO90 version (the community decided it would be pre-AO90) than having two.

I’ve also explained that this automatic conversion is not possible in the opposite way, since the rules of the AO90 and the multiple combinations and exceptions created by it, invalidate a programmatic retroversion.

The rules that have been set in voting apply to the WordPress core. Plugins and themes have several translations, some with AO90 others not, depending on who translates them and the PTE.

The request I made above intends, with the minimum of complications, to satisfy the maximum number of users. As I have already explained countless times – and this, yes, is a freedom that seems to say nothing to you, unfortunately –, simply changing the spelling, as it seems to be your desire, would make all installations of WordPress in Portuguese from Portugal automatically updated to the AO90 version, without the owner being called upon to decide and opting-in. This – opting-in – for me, is freedom. I’ve also explained here how we created a plugin to ensure the use o AO90 in core. And also other ways of using AO90 automatically converted .po files, that assure that anyone is free to use whatever orthography they want, without exclusions.

Moreover, the creation of a variant for AO90 will simplify the process of changing from one to another orthography, once again, without excluding or imposing it to anyone. And will allow us to incorporate the inevitable changes to the AO90 orthography that made it so poorly adopted in most portuguese speaking countries.

There is only one official orthography in the Portuguese Republic and the plan you are trying make go forward will forbid people who write according to the official orthography to be able to suggest and get approved translations.

This is what needs to be known: People in Portugal changed the way they write Portuguese because the official spelling orthography was made mandatory in the Portuguese Republic since, at least, 2013 and if your plan goes forward, it will put all these people away even knowing that they want to voluntary translate according to the only one and official orthographic rules.

This can’t be considered to be valid and must be stopped immediately, or WordPress translations in pt_PT will be the very first example of keeping people away from freely collaborate using official rules just because some folks who wants to rule the Portuguese translations community decided that the official rules should not be accepted for whoever wants to collaborate following the official rules.

You keep saying in every channel you grab that you’re not allowed to contribute the way you think it should, despite the recurring explanations about the translation rules.

As you know, in the Portuguese community there are users of both spellings, and to fulfill all of those, having all the consistency work on one branch, propagated automatically to both, the translations must be submitted in the old spelling so it’s possible to automatically convert it to the AO90 spelling. This conversion isn’t possible the other way around, as you’ve been told many times.

I just don’t understand why you keep saying you’re being forbidden to use the spelling you think you should use in translation submission.

Again, as said many times by myself and others, in polyglots, in our community site and blog and Portuguese slack, it is very much unfair you keep saying you’re not being allowed to do as you would like to.

What is being asked to every translator is to contribute the way it benefits all Portuguese users, and not just a part of it.

Please do not keep saying this is false, as you perfectly know that the community is giving support for both spellings, first in the WP core, and now with plugins and themes in GlotPress, with this very request we’re commenting on, this a way to get this done for everyone, for every project, automatically.

This translation process and rules are positively clear and have been explained to you over and over again, it considers every Portuguese WordPress users, please consider this before keeping repeating that this is false or a lie.

Still, I’ll try to make it clear again.

In our community, and among the translators, there are users that prefer both spellings.

I believe that the translation contribution is not about the translator choice or preference as you keep insisting it is.

I believe that the translation contribution is about users getting the UI on their language and spelling preference, and we’re all here trying to provide it, to all Portuguese users, of both spellings, automatically processed, quickly and harmless.

If contributing in one spelling propagates automatically to both spellings, that is a way better solution for all users than submitting it in a spelling that is not possible to automatically convert and propagate to both spellings.

This is particularly important considering the continuous work of maintaining the WP core and meta consistency health in a growing universe of plugins and themes.

This particular P2 is not the proper place to insult everyone in the pt_PT translation effort (I highly doubt you’ll find recruits for that here, anyway)

Please come to our own P2, where you can slander everyone in our native language, no less (how’s that for a great feature?)

Pedro Mendonça
4:40 pm on September 2, 2017

Hi everyone,

We could really use this variant, we’re waiting for quite a while now, doesn’t matter if it’s a real variant or an old school pseudo-variant like the ones that currently exist.
We don’t care about fallback for now, we just need some new variant to allow us to provide the Portuguese users this ortographic version. When the new real variants arrive, we’ll deal with all the necessary changes required to its migration.

There’s currently a bug in core which prevents the selection of the AO90 variant during the installation. That will be fixed in 4.8.2/4.9. https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/41794
The bug doesn’t affect the option on the General Settings page.