is aikido teaching you the way of the samurie? or how to be a samurie?

Andrew S

08-25-2008 05:04 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Tom Hill wrote:
(Post 214452)

is aikido teaching you the way of the samurie? or how to be a samurie?

No and no. It won't help you much with samurai related stuff either.

Lyle Bogin

08-25-2008 05:55 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

only if saying yes will make you sign up for lessons :)

Ketsan

08-25-2008 07:40 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

Yep. If you think of dojo as families, houses as clans, then I suppose the politics does kinda mirror the nanbokuchō-jidai.

:D

Tony Wagstaffe

08-25-2008 07:46 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Lyle Bogin wrote:
(Post 214459)

only if saying yes will make you sign up for lessons :)

Naughty Naughty!!

Tony Wagstaffe

08-25-2008 07:48 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote:
(Post 214477)

Yep. If you think of dojo as families, houses as clans, then I suppose the politics does kinda mirror the nanbokuchō-jidai.

:D

Different planet to mine them.....:hypno:

Marc Abrams

08-25-2008 08:53 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Lyle Bogin wrote:
(Post 214459)

only if saying yes will make you sign up for lessons :)

And if you sign up before midnight we will include a FREE Ginzu samurie knife. It slices and dices in combat like no other knife available today!...........................:eek:

Marc Abrams

lbb

08-25-2008 09:28 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

Marc, that's nothing -- my dojo will give you a cool samurie uniform, AND teach you the secret samurie handshake.

Andrew S

08-26-2008 03:45 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

Nice summaries!

Tony Wagstaffe

08-26-2008 04:05 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Tom Hill wrote:
(Post 214452)

is aikido teaching you the way of the samurie? or how to be a samurie?

Alright fellas give the poor lad a break.... he's only 16 and has possibly been misled.....

No Tom it does not make you a Samurai......

They don't exist anymore.... but the concept does in Japanese Tradition and Etiquette and Business ethics (I think, but could be wrong there)

And in some deluded peoples minds.......

Take Care
Tony

Josh Reyer

08-26-2008 08:37 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
(Post 214518)

They don't exist anymore.... but the concept does in Japanese Tradition and Etiquette and Business ethics (I think, but could be wrong there)
Tony

If one wishes to understand the Japanese businessman's mind, it'd be better to brush up on one's Confucius than to research the samurai.

Tony Wagstaffe

08-26-2008 11:19 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote:
(Post 214529)

If one wishes to understand the Japanese businessman's mind, it'd be better to brush up on one's Confucius than to research the samurai.

That's something worth looking at I suppose
Thank you for that.... Well Tom should.......

Tony

Ketsan

08-27-2008 07:41 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote:
(Post 214529)

If one wishes to understand the Japanese businessman's mind, it'd be better to brush up on one's Confucius than to research the samurai.

Well Confucius wasn't exactly a minor influence on the Samurai. Study of the Chinese classics was the basis of any Samurai's education.
Thomas Cleary's "Training the Samurai mind" is a good book to read if you're interested in how much Confucianism influenced the Samurai.

Ketsan

08-27-2008 08:49 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
(Post 214518)

Alright fellas give the poor lad a break.... he's only 16 and has possibly been misled.....

No Tom it does not make you a Samurai......

They don't exist anymore.... but the concept does in Japanese Tradition and Etiquette and Business ethics (I think, but could be wrong there)

And in some deluded peoples minds.......

Take Care
Tony

Umm.....yeah. I think in at least one regard the dojo does teach you something about the Samurai: how to exist in a small hierachical unit, with a martial mindset.

As you say, we preserve some of the etiquette, surely along with etiquette comes a system of thought? And since a lot of this etiquette was perculiar to the Samurai class I think it follows that maybe just a little bit of the Samurai mindset was passed on with it.

We probably wouldn't even noticed if it had though because to us it'd just seem normal. :D

Peter Goldsbury

08-27-2008 09:30 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Tom Hill wrote:
(Post 214452)

is aikido teaching you the way of the samurie? or how to be a samurie?

Hello Tom,

I see from your profile that you practise archery. Is this Japanese archery, or the sort that the British do in tournaments? If you practise Japanese archery, then I suggest that you look at the life of Eugen Herrigel and his teacher Awa Kenzo. Japanese archery has a much stronger claim to represent the ethos of the samurai (note the accepted English spelling) than modern aikido.

You do not say whether you are interested in actually practising aikido, just whether aikido teaches the way of the samurai. Perhaps it might be best to read a few good books on the samurai (books by Stephen Turnbull are generally good) and then go to an aikido dojo and make up your own mind.

Best wishes,

Tony Wagstaffe

08-27-2008 10:51 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

One could say that the "Samurai" of today are the armed forces of modern nations to some extent..... depends on how one looks at it?

I believe the word Samurai means "to serve"

Peter Goldsbury would/could probably enlighten us on that one....
how about it Peter?

Tony

Josh Reyer

08-27-2008 01:41 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote:
(Post 214619)

Well Confucius wasn't exactly a minor influence on the Samurai. Study of the Chinese classics was the basis of any Samurai's education.

Indeed it was. However, only 10% or so of the population were samurai, while Confucianism was an influence to the entire population.

In my experience, few Japanese (by which I mean none that I have met) associate themselves with the idea of the samurai, even if they know for sure that they have samurai in their family tree. Most folks figure their ancestors were merchants or craftsmen or farmers. While we may see Japanese businessmen as "modern day samurai, doing battle and committing seppuku for the good of their company", IMO most Japanese businessmen think of themselves as "regular folk working for the benefit of the village."

And since a lot of this etiquette was perculiar to the Samurai class I think it follows that maybe just a little bit of the Samurai mindset was passed on with it.

What etiquette of modern aikido was peculiar to the samurai?

Andrew S

08-28-2008 06:46 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

I'd take a risk and say that most budo etiquette was influenced in general by Zen teachings (popularized by the bushi caste) and particularly the Ogasawara Ryu, which taught bujutsu and tea ceremony, among other things. Seiza and therefore zarei were heavily influenced by this school.
Don't forget the Edo-period training for a bushi to be constantly alert (probably an imagined need rather than a real one) which also manifests itself in reiho (which hand do you put out first in zarei?)
Finally, the samurai were the only caste with enough free time to come up with complex mannerisms.
So, in a sense, much of aikido etiquette stems from samurai etiquette.

Ketsan

08-28-2008 10:47 AM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Kent Enfield wrote:
(Post 214679)

What etiquette of modern aikido was peculiar to the samurai?

Andrew has pretty much said what I was going to say.

tomhill

08-28-2008 05:21 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

thank you all sorry for the late reply been on holiday for a few days :) . i was only asking because you use bokkens which to me look like woodan katanas (samurie swords) so if not the samurie were does the origin of aikido come from ?

Ketsan

08-28-2008 07:51 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

Quote:

Tom Hill wrote:
(Post 214770)

thank you all sorry for the late reply been on holiday for a few days :) . i was only asking because you use bokkens which to me look like woodan katanas (samurie swords) so if not the samurie were does the origin of aikido come from ?

They are wooden katana. :) There was more to the Samurai than being a good swordsman though, in fact the sword was usually a secondary weapon for use only when one had lost ones spear, bow or naginata.

So, you want to know the origin of Aikido. Technically it largely comes from Daito Ryu, where Daito Ryu comes from is a hotly debated subject. Potentially it goes back to Minamoto Yoshimitsu in the 1080s, alternatively it goes back to Takeda Sokaku from the late 19th century, or maybe some where in between.

I'll leave the philosophical origins of Aikido to someone that has a clue. :D

Buck

08-28-2008 11:45 PM

Re: aikido and samurie

If you mean by samurai (long gone) Budo, no not really. There are parts of budo I think in Aikido and you and turn that up, but overall no. I think what is left of the samurai is long gone and like a photograph snap shot caught in books for us to look at. Aikido teaches peace through the mental discipline developed and practiced, modeled in Aikido, by the samurai. How much to you get into that discipline and what you get out of it is up to you. People aren't forced or subjected, it is choice how deeply you want to follow Aikido in this way.