I know this thread is really old, but I'd love to follow up on a couple of points if possible.

Quote:

I wouldn't be the first, second, third, fourth, or 50th to go wtf on some parts of the system, although Denizens helps a lot here. It is somewhat difficult to overstate how important Denizens is to the system... So much of denizens has important information and lessons learned from the core book and new players.

I am finally getting around to reading the Fate of the Norns Core Rules.

Can anyone address (with specific page numbers, if possible) what elements of Denizens of the North I should make sure to go read immediately upon finishing the core rules.

I'm honestly finding the rules as they stand compelling as all hell. (Though, yes, I can see there is a steep system mastery curve. All the pieces look like they'll work wonderfully well together -- once a player understand how the pieces work together!) But once I wrap them up I'd love to jump to whatever pages are going help me get on with understand the rules at the greatest pace.

Thanks!

the whole norns rules section, starting on p344. Much of that section was hashed out here on the boards in one way or the other. honorable mention goes to the archetype section for introducing a few archetypes that help complete the game, and to the magic item section which really makes excellent example items.

Raleel, in your opinion, is there anything "essential" in Lords of the Ash? Curious because as you know I do have that v.2 rules doc in the works.

sorry for the slow to reply, been sick, etc.

bonus boards - truth, I think the Disir and anything that might involve a bonus board is not "base rules". There is a lot of material there that sort of logically goes together (what happens after death). i feel like it a different book

knockback - should be in v2

interrupts - should be in v2

attributes/base powers - should be in v2, but probably not all of them.

composite boards - another advanced concept. same place as bonus boards

actions - v2 for sure. all this section

effects - i think this whole section should be in v2 as well, as appropriate (divine potence probably doesn't need to be here). the aura rule should probably become standard and not necessarily optional.

1. Andrew, when you speak of "V.2" -- is that a new version of the Fate of Norns core rules, or Lords of Ash.

2. Raleel, when you write:• skills - v2• new combat rules - all of them

... are you saying that the rules for skills and combat should replace the rules in the core book?

I ask because I just got the core book, am busy making runes to play the game with my group at some point... and am wondering what I have gotten myself into?

How many books do I need to play the game? How much rules cobbling do I need to do to get a solid version of the rules?

I have been very impressed with the rules I found in the core book. But I also have not yet put them into play. There might be plenty of bumps I haven't spotted yet.

Not freaking out or angry or anything. But I am trying to use my RPG time more wisely these days... I'd rather play games I can just play rather than having to sort through lots of rules and try to figure out how to make them work smoothly.

1. Andrew, when you speak of "V.2" -- is that a new version of the Fate of Norns core rules, or Lords of Ash.

2. Raleel, when you write:• skills - v2• new combat rules - all of them

... are you saying that the rules for skills and combat should replace the rules in the core book?

I ask because I just got the core book, am busy making runes to play the game with my group at some point... and am wondering what I have gotten myself into?

How many books do I need to play the game? How much rules cobbling do I need to do to get a solid version of the rules?

I have been very impressed with the rules I found in the core book. But I also have not yet put them into play. There might be plenty of bumps I haven't spotted yet.

Not freaking out or angry or anything. But I am trying to use my RPG time more wisely these days... I'd rather play games I can just play rather than having to sort through lots of rules and try to figure out how to make them work smoothly.

no, not so much replace. the rules in the later books are augmentations and clarifications. Not necessary at all, but might make things clearer for you. A lot of them are things that were hashed out on here.

v2, AFAIK, is a new edition of the core rules, with polish and the like. I dont know details, however.

For anyone new to Ragnarok and the Runic-Game-System (RGS), the Core Rulebook has everything you need to play and have a great experience. But like any RPG that's been around for many years, players master what's there and crave more. Designers see opportunities for streamline and refinement. Either it all goes into notes for the next version, or each new book adds a little more to the game system. The 3 main books are the latter approach.

To clarify what I mean about the "next iteration of the rules", it's not really a v.3 of RGS, it's a cleanup and re-organization of v.2.v.1 of RGS was released in 2006 and had no void rune, and conditions were open ended for intensity, among many other fundamental differences.v.2 was our 2012 rule set that is the game you see today (all the way up to Lords of the Ash).

I'm not looking at a v.3 yet, but rather a re-write of the rules found in the Core Rulebook, Denizens of the North and Lords of the Ash. RGS has evolved throughout all 3 books and I think it's time to unify the evolution with a re-write. With each book, the evolution took into account player experiences and table dynamics, as Raleel says, from the comments and feedback on these forums. That's why I always enjoy play reports from players- they help me refine the system based on a wide range of experiences.

My goal will be a new printing of each book with the streamlined rules contained in each book. I'm looking at how I can make each book a possible starting point for anyone getting into the game. That means breaking the interdependence between the books. It's ambitious and that's why it's going to take some time. The upcoming Celtic handbook called the Children of Eriu that's in the works will be the first one to do this. I do have Sveta working on new covers for each existing book, so it'll be crystal clear that the re-printed books will contain the new self-contained content. These are still a ways off though.

raleel wrote:

andrew wrote:

Raleel, in your opinion, is there anything "essential" in Lords of the Ash? Curious because as you know I do have that v.2 rules doc in the works.

sorry for the slow to reply, been sick, etc.

bonus boards - truth, I think the Disir and anything that might involve a bonus board is not "base rules". There is a lot of material there that sort of logically goes together (what happens after death). i feel like it a different book

knockback - should be in v2

interrupts - should be in v2

attributes/base powers - should be in v2, but probably not all of them.

composite boards - another advanced concept. same place as bonus boards

actions - v2 for sure. all this section

effects - i think this whole section should be in v2 as well, as appropriate (divine potence probably doesn't need to be here). the aura rule should probably become standard and not necessarily optional.

new types of active powers - my view is that new rules get introduced with the things that use them as a whole. these tend to be advanced classes, so they stay with them, where ever that is.

reverberation meta - i like this, you should keep it around and maybe expand the use a bit

passive powers - v2

bloodline/primal - leave out unless someone uses it in the core book

skills - v2

meta - any that are used get included

swarm rules - v2

size - v2

new combat rules - all of them

did I ever tell you about the skill system I concocted instead of the boards as they laid out?

Thanks for the detailed response Raleel, that's very helpful. Please elaborate on your home-brew skill system, if it works well, that would be something I'd consider as an evolution. I know that you've got a great handle on RGS, so that hack will be illuminating.

creativehum wrote:

Hey folks, more questions!

1. Andrew, when you speak of "V.2" -- is that a new version of the Fate of Norns core rules, or Lords of Ash.

2. Raleel, when you write:• skills - v2• new combat rules - all of them

... are you saying that the rules for skills and combat should replace the rules in the core book?

I ask because I just got the core book, am busy making runes to play the game with my group at some point... and am wondering what I have gotten myself into?

How many books do I need to play the game? How much rules cobbling do I need to do to get a solid version of the rules?

I have been very impressed with the rules I found in the core book. But I also have not yet put them into play. There might be plenty of bumps I haven't spotted yet.

Not freaking out or angry or anything. But I am trying to use my RPG time more wisely these days... I'd rather play games I can just play rather than having to sort through lots of rules and try to figure out how to make them work smoothly.

To reassure you, the Core Rulebook rules are a great place to start. When I run game demos at conventions we attend, I use either the Fafnir's Treasure light RGS rules, or the rules from the Core Rulebook. For the first experience, you don't need anything from the evolved rules set- they're just bells and whistles for experienced players. You should forget any evolutions exist until you guys have mastered the Core Rulebook rules.

did I ever tell you about the skill system I concocted instead of the boards as they laid out?

Thanks for the detailed response Raleel, that's very helpful. Please elaborate on your home-brew skill system, if it works well, that would be something I'd consider as an evolution. I know that you've got a great handle on RGS, so that hack will be illuminating.

In 13th Age, there is a background system for skill checks - essentially you allocate skill points an abstract background. then, when a skill check comes along, you roll against the difficulty, adding the background that is relevant. You explain why this is relevant in the game. I think it makes a nice background.

So, for Fate of the Norns, I propose the following:

Ignore the skill boards and all the skills in the book

Pick a number of backgrounds

Assign your Essence in points/runes to them

You can assign no more than four or your Destiny in (whichever is less) runes to any one. You can add 1 to this limit for every Disir level you have.

Additionally, you gain one for your sub-archetype (assassin for Sceadegengan, enchanter for galdr, etc) because of your void rune. This is explicitly defined by your sub-archtype.

So, Björn the Berserker (Essence 6, Destiny 3, Level 12) might have

Rower on the Jarl's longship - 3

Apprentice to the great smith Wayland - 2

Lived in the wilderness for a month - 1

Marvin the Multifaceted might have

Lived in the wilderness for a month - 1

Lover of the ladies - 1

Merchant for a summer - 1

Saw a sword get made one time - 1

Got some basic rune lessons - 1

Sami-friend - 1

Norn Note: this might require tweaking. Animal Shapeshift, or various passives based on skills, might put a kink in this. Many of these cases can be dealt with by creating a background that actually gives the skill in question. For example, if you have a passive that relies on War Tactics, creating a background that is something like "Sub-jarl under Jarl Borg" will fill the need there.

what this functionally does is allows skills to be extremely flexible. You can say you are drawing from some experience or background and wyrd for a skill check. It also allows for some better definition of your character with the backgrounds. Things like "Earl of Halogaland" is going to give you familiarity with Halogaland as well as give you leadership skills. it won't give you familiarity with northwestern iceland, but it might help you lead icelandic folks.

We found it to be really really useful in our 13th age game, and I liked it enough to port it over. As a side note, I ported over wyrding for runes into 13th age instead of their Icon rolls. 13th age is a fantastic game, and a very good read if nothing else.

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