Baine hates Garrosh, Vol'jin plans to KILL Garrosh, Sylvanas just does not give a shit about anything and uses the horde for her own motives. There are not many but even some Orcs hate Garrosh and I am not sure about the goblins but...whew, That sounds like a stable faction to me.

Meanwhile the Alliance is strengthening bonds and working together. Yeah. Just no.

Anduin is like Jaina pre MoP. He is a part of the Alliance. He is the prince of Stormwind. But he still desires peace. He knows there is good in the horde, but doesn't hesitate to oppose Garrosh's schemes either. In fact it was he who thwarted the Divine Bell. Being willing to work with the other faction is not the same as being neutral.

Agreed.

He certainly isn't very pro-war, but you can hardly call him neutral, particularly after the events of 5.1.

Roleplaying, hardcore Raiding, running LFR on the occasional weekend, PvPing, rolling alts, achievement hunting, pet battling, or just enacting an endless series of whims, I don't care how you play WoW. Just as long as you have fun doing it.

So far, this expansion that I thought was going to have the Alliance's "big moment" to be proud of.......looks to really be all about the Horde's story and how they will overthrow their own tyrant.

Alliance is getting more active, but as far as our development and actually seeing purpose.....still more intrigue on the Horde side.

Varian built a base, Varian put Tyrande in her place. That's about the bulk of Alliance development thus far. We'll see what Moira does in the new scenario, but I'm expecting the big build up to be the Horde's rebellion and a conclusion with the Horde stopping Garrosh for the canon victory and then....the Alliance scampers off before the might of the reforged Horde.

/shrug Still better than what we had in Cataclysm, but not nearly the results Metzen had me expecting. Maybe next expansion with the draenei getting some spotlight amidst a Legion story and the return of Turalyon and Alleria.

"There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

Actually Faroth let me disagree.
First of all by the time you arrive in Pandaria the Alliance is trashing the Horde all over the place starting from that base in Krasarang.
Then you have one by one the Neutral Factions turning in favor of the Alliance starting from the Kirin Tor and the Earthen Ring following soon since Thrall started already. You have the Horde Shattering from inside with Rebellions about to happen. You also have a Wise King that makes calculating moves gaining total victories while Garrosh is losing it every day.
And finally you have the rest of the Horde begging to help them clean up their mess by removing the Warchief they put there. Once we finish with Garrosh we will have the upper hand in the negotiations as we will be more united than ever with all of the neutral factions of Azeroth in our side and our enemies more shattered than ever. I believe that Blizzard will do the huge step instead of hearing all those Horde whiners who are the reason the story of the Horde is damaged a lot and that Cataclysm sucked a lot. I believe that they will show a surrender type of story with some heavy terms of surrender. Not total destruction of course of the Horde but something that will appease the Alliance side also after all this total bad writing they had during Cataclysm.

Actually Faroth let me disagree.
First of all by the time you arrive in Pandaria the Alliance is trashing the Horde all over the place starting from that base in Krasarang.
Then you have one by one the Neutral Factions turning in favor of the Alliance starting from the Kirin Tor and the Earthen Ring following soon since Thrall started already. You have the Horde Shattering from inside with Rebellions about to happen. You also have a Wise King that makes calculating moves gaining total victories while Garrosh is losing it every day.
And finally you have the rest of the Horde begging to help them clean up their mess by removing the Warchief they put there. Once we finish with Garrosh we will have the upper hand in the negotiations as we will be more united than ever with all of the neutral factions of Azeroth in our side and our enemies more shattered than ever. I believe that Blizzard will do the huge step instead of hearing all those Horde whiners who are the reason the story of the Horde is damaged a lot and that Cataclysm sucked a lot. I believe that they will show a surrender type of story with some heavy terms of surrender. Not total destruction of course of the Horde but something that will appease the Alliance side also after all this total bad writing they had during Cataclysm.

Ultimately, which faction is favored, or if they manage to strike a balance, is going to come down to how they execute the siege of orgrimmar. The build up to it in 5.3, the siege itself, and the resolution, all have potential to swing one way or another.

"If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

Pandaren are only new in WoW. They are not new to the lore. Pandaren, particularly Chen Stormstout are in the story since WCIII

I don't norm make posts but his comment has forced me too.
Pandaren 'weren't in WC3 what so ever until an April Fools joke by Blizzard.
They had no lore, no part to play and only had 1 interaction with Chen.

Their creator made up the Pandas by drawing a picture of himself and daughter as Pandas for a piece of art that he had in the Blizz offices.
It was picked out to do the April Fools and since then up to MoP had some what of a cult following.

You need to accept that the alliance is a boring faction full of knights on a white horse, it is impossible to make a good story when all the leader are fricking good guys; you want good storyline? You need to accept at last a sylvanas like leader inside the alliance better if they are two and make your hands dirt, Blizzard tried it 2 times first mrchin and then with jaina and many many alliance players have gone apeshit. Deal with it.

How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

On the contrary. You need to accept that as every video game the villain can never win. Yes I prefer the Alliance full of White Knights because in the end they always win. I also prefer Thrall's Horde because Blizzard wanted to create a different kind of Orc apart from how the Orcs are in other games. If you or other Garrosh fans like so much to pillage,kill and burn go play Warhammer or another type of game cause the Orcs of Warcraft are not the same.

Ultimately, which faction is favored, or if they manage to strike a balance, is going to come down to how they execute the siege of orgrimmar. The build up to it in 5.3, the siege itself, and the resolution, all have potential to swing one way or another.

This really, it's not just about victories (Though admittedly winning some battles after losing damn near everywhere in Cataclysm was nice for a change :P ), it's also about character development, the horde leaders are doing stuff, Vol'jin is rebelling, Baine is getting annoyed, Lor'themar Theron is involved with the Kirin'tor/Sunreaver dealie, Sylvanas is... appearing in fanart, Gallywix, well, I think he's a myth :P

Then the Alliance: Varian is uber at everything, Anduin is "Holier than thou", but seems to be getting more down-to-Azeroth, Tyrande gets a second "Hush"-ing, further weakening what character Knaak and Malfurion left her with, Velen talks to Anduin in a story om Blizzard.com, the gnomes do naff all, the dwarves are supposed to do something next patch and the worgen are... digging for bones, as far as i can tell.

Sure, the alliance leaders are all behind Varian, but a bit too far behind him IMO.

This subject of Varian 'pushing the horde apart' just feels like alliance hypocrisy, Varian trying to dictate how the horde should be.

I think I preferred him when he was just the big hating moron from wrath, at least you knew where he stood. He has no right to tell the horde its right to exist, given how he caused to much of the problems the horde has.

Baine hates Garrosh, Vol'jin plans to KILL Garrosh, Sylvanas just does not give a shit about anything and uses the horde for her own motives. There are not many but even some Orcs hate Garrosh and I am not sure about the goblins but...whew, That sounds like a stable faction to me.

Meanwhile the Alliance is strengthening bonds and working together. Yeah. Just no.

I don't see how the Horde is crumbling. A more accurate statement would be that the Orcs as a faction are crumbling and splitting apart. Most Orcs will side with Garrosh, but many will split off. Meanwhile, the Trolls, Tauren and Blood Elves are likely closer than ever because they're united against Garrosh (not that they weren't already close before) and it's not like Sylvanas is any less distant from them than before. We don't really care about the goblins.

The important leaders of the Horde are still united, which is pretty much all that matters. You can't say that just because most of them hate Garrosh = the Horde is crumbling, because it isn't as if Garrosh actually represents the Horde anymore. He's pretty much gone crazy.

This subject of Varian 'pushing the horde apart' just feels like alliance hypocrisy, Varian trying to dictate how the horde should be.

In what way is he dictating anything?
So far he's done two things that are pushing the Horde apart. The first being the fact he's apparently slowly but surely beating Garrosh, troops don't see him as invincible. This has also created the perfect environment for the Vol'jins rebellion.
The second being that in 5.2 he appears to be actively funding the Darkspear rebellion.

This subject of Varian 'pushing the horde apart' just feels like alliance hypocrisy, Varian trying to dictate how the horde should be.

I think I preferred him when he was just the big hating moron from wrath, at least you knew where he stood. He has no right to tell the horde its right to exist, given how he caused to much of the problems the horde has.

In what way is he dictating anything?
So far he's done two things that are pushing the Horde apart. The first being the fact he's apparently slowly but surely beating Garrosh, troops don't see him as invincible. This has also created the perfect environment for the Vol'jins rebellion.
The second being that in 5.2 he appears to be actively funding the Darkspear rebellion.

We've seen already they Jaina has spoken out her plan that the only thing best for the horde is to seperate it from its people. She doesn't appear to have set a line on who the people are in the horde. And so we see Varian with this now very similar ethos. He doesn't want to destroy the horde, but he wants to break it apart with the full force of the alliance bearing down on it.

The question though comes down to this. After mists has ended, after Garrosh and his followers are defeated and what his version of the horde was is left in the dirt, what then? Varian will just walk away and let the horde rebuild itself? Will Jaina do the same?

Though in truth, whoever is set to be the hordes next leader will be calling the shots on who the horde will move forward after Garrosh, which is one card not yet played. Still, it just feels irksome with Varian having such a high and mighty attitude to the hordes fate. It would be so much more appealing if whoever takes command of the horde once Garrosh is gone to just tell Varian 'this is our horde, and we decide its fate, not you'

I think you're reading a bit much into it, I think they're just noting that there's a split in the Horde and that rather than fight a total war it'd be better to come in on the less belligerent side of a civil war.

And so we see Varian with this now very similar ethos. He doesn't want to destroy the horde, but he wants to break it apart with the full force of the alliance bearing down on it.

Poppycock. Where are you getting this from? Interviews with Metzen had him state he just wants to defeat the Horde dictator and that he's not out for blood or anything malevolent. 5.3 shows him helping Vol'jin win his rebellion.

He is fighting a war to defend his people and end Garrosh. We've seen nothing so far that would indicate he wants to ruin the Horde. Heck his actions in 5.3 show the exact opposite and instead he wants it to be in better hands to rebuild it into a force of good.

Originally Posted by Trassk

The question though comes down to this. After mists has ended, after Garrosh and his followers are defeated and what his version of the horde was is left in the dirt, what then? Varian will just walk away and let the horde rebuild itself? Will Jaina do the same?

I wish we had answers to this but speculation isn't getting any easier. Nobody was expecting him to directly assist Vol'jins rebellion.

Originally Posted by Trassk

Still, it just feels irksome with Varian having such a high and mighty attitude to the hordes fate.

What has he done that would give a negative impression? The only thing he's done so far to actively change the Horde has been to assist Vol'jin's rebellion and prove that the Alliance are not their enemies.

Poppycock. Where are you getting this from? Interviews with Metzen had him state he just wants to defeat the Horde dictator and that he's not out for blood or anything malevolent. 5.3 shows him helping Vol'jin win his rebellion.

He is fighting a war to defend his people and end Garrosh. We've seen nothing so far that would indicate he wants to ruin the Horde. Heck his actions in 5.3 show the exact opposite and instead he wants it to be in better hands to rebuild it into a force of good.

I wish we had answers to this but speculation isn't getting any easier. Nobody was expecting him to directly assist Vol'jins rebellion.

What has he done that would give a negative impression? The only thing he's done so far to actively change the Horde has been to assist Vol'jin's rebellion and prove that the Alliance are not their enemies.

Don't try to argue with Trassk. He's just a deluded Horde fanboy who can't stand the fact his faction is now both not the focus of MoP and losing badly.

Don't try to argue with Trassk. He's just a deluded Horde fanboy who can't stand the fact his faction is now both not the focus of MoP and losing badly.

Keep it civil please.

I've said my piece on this issue and don't want to go any further into discussing posters and even then I feel guilty about saying negative things about posters in another post. Yes I feel somewhat bad for speaking out. I am sorry if I personally offended him in some way.

Poppycock. Where are you getting this from? Interviews with Metzen had him state he just wants to defeat the Horde dictator and that he's not out for blood or anything malevolent. 5.3 shows him helping Vol'jin win his rebellion.

That may have been how it first was implied, but there is now an overriding factor of both Varian and Jaina making this bid to splitting the horde apart. After all, what better way to defeat your enemy then break it apart from its own inner turmoil.

He is fighting a war to defend his people and end Garrosh. We've seen nothing so far that would indicate he wants to ruin the Horde. Heck his actions in 5.3 show the exact opposite and instead he wants it to be in better hands to rebuild it into a force of good.

And again, Varian suddenly having this 'I know whats best for the horde' attitude, like he understands what the horde is about just comes from nowhere. I wouldn't be so bad if he just said 'we need to put a stop to this war, we're taking the fight to Garrosh', but instead he's suddenly developed this attitude where by he can dictate whats important for the horde.

What has he done that would give a negative impression? The only thing he's done so far to actively change the Horde has been to assist Vol'jin's rebellion and prove that the Alliance are not their enemies.

We haven't even seen this yet in 5.3 beta, we've just heard the sound files. We know Vol'jin is prepared to work alongside him. Its just where Varian, after throwing what he did at the horde the same as what Garrosh threw at him, has developed this saintly attitude to the hordes fate? Half the reason for the horde being at war is because of him, anyone who followed Varian progression since Wrath would know this.

My issue is, given the crap Varian's pulled, he doesn't have a right to tell the horde how it should be. He can help Vol'jin in taking down Garrosh, but thats it.

Edit: Btw, I don't like insulting posters either, I don't like making people feel like shit. I have my own take on the lore and characters and very passionate about it. Anyone who has delved into the story like I have would know the feeling, so I'd sooner not drag up bad karma with people.

That may have been how it first was implied, but there is now an overriding factor of both Varian and Jaina making this bid to splitting the horde apart. After all, what better way to defeat your enemy then break it apart from its own inner turmoil.

Do you have a source for such claims? Because so far I haven't seen anything that indicates such goals and methods are implied with Varian. Jaina I can understand where you get this notion from, but even she so far just seems to have a vendetta against Garrosh.

Originally Posted by Trassk

And again, Varian suddenly having this 'I know whats best for the horde' attitude, like he understands what the horde is about just comes from nowhere. I wouldn't be so bad if he just said 'we need to put a stop to this war, we're taking the fight to Garrosh', but instead he's suddenly developed this attitude where by he can dictate whats important for the horde.

Which is seen where? As I said he hasn't gone around dictating anything to do with the Horde. In fact much if not all of what Varian has been involved with so far has not had anything to do with the Horde as an organisation and has been all to do with Anduin and the rest of the Alliance.

Originally Posted by Trassk

We haven't even seen this yet in 5.3 beta, we've just heard the sound files. We know Vol'jin is prepared to work alongside him. Its just where Varian, after throwing what he did at the horde the same as what Garrosh threw at him, has developed this saintly attitude to the hordes fate? Half the reason for the horde being at war is because of him, anyone who followed Varian progression since Wrath would know this.

I'm sorry for having trouble finding my source. But there was quest dialogue by Varian to you Sully and Amber telling you that you are representatives for the Alliance to Vol'jin. To which Vol'jin initially claims he doesn't trust you, which is odd if you ask me.
But so far we've seen nothing that supports your belief that Varian has a high horse attitude towards the Horde.

Originally Posted by Trassk

My issue is, given the crap Varian's pulled, he doesn't have a right to tell the horde how it should be. He can help Vol'jin in taking down Garrosh, but thats it.

I think he has every right to play a role in the shaping of the Horde when this is all over even if it's just advice or something. Varian has a right to make sure the Horde are in a position where they can be trusted to do the right thing and not go ape shit crazy on them. The Alliance have been the first and foremost victims in all this and so once this is over they have every right to see that such a war doesn't happen again.

Your final sentance I hope wasn't literal. This has been brought up before. The Alliance needs it's own story. It shouldn't be there to exclusively help. That is what is happening in 5.3 and I've remained very pessimistic about it.