A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns
Posts in the discussion thread "A Discussion of Concerns" - Read/comment if you want to help contribute to the current discussion of various concerns about FR. If you ever wanted to bring up a concern about the rp as a whole, this may well be the place to do it. Read/comment or the terrorists win.Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:26:38 +0000http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1940709Re: Let's get the ball rolling again.http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1940709
Mon, 20 Jan 2014 12:09:41 +0000Dr Balthazaar1468535
Well, I'm keen to help out however possible. Call upon me at any point.
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1940643Let's get the ball rolling again.http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1940643
Mon, 20 Jan 2014 09:37:10 +0000Tehpillowstar1555782
It's been a long time since I visited this thread. There's been some major changes, and a lot of disappointment, and anticipated waiting.

It's worth talking about what had happened, and what we can learn from it. But that's a big thing to talk about. Something that really needs to be discussed, and discussed as soon as possible. We are not going to revive the RP by a miracle. Motivated GMs, an active, loyal playerbase, constant softrp and regular runs aren't going to fall out of the sky and fall into place themselves.

We, and that is we the playerbase AND the GMs, are going to have to do this together. We can restore the RP, and I'm very confident that we can do it in less than a month.

But only if we work for it. And not only work on it NOW, but have something to show for it.

If we keep waiting, nothing will happen. And FR will be as good as dead.

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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1910548Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1910548
Sat, 07 Dec 2013 21:19:39 +0000Wogglebug1341523
While that is a valid point, do keep in mind that there are sometimes actions that, while they may be something reasonably attainable in general, are not possible in a certain situation. It's not necessarily a matter of "I don't want the character to do this." so much as "The character would not be capable of this under the circumstances.". Changing DC based on circumstance is kind of important, because the alternative is constantly buffing/debuffing the character themselves, which is extremely tedious in most cases.
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1910111Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1910111
Sat, 07 Dec 2013 04:03:47 +0000Tehpillowstar1555782
I also believe that the complaints also stem from general GM rigidity: the unwillingness to compromise to player victories with the dice.

An example that comes up in my mind is how a GM called for an agility roll, and the user rolled a 9 (+,+,+,0,0,0), but yet still failed the roll, simply because the GM did not want the user to pass the agility roll. (The roll was call for I believe for the character to rise from his/her seat.)

The problem is DC inflation where the DCs just don't match the difficulty of the skill isn't just because of no hard and fast rules, but most likely, because the GMs railroad players, ignoring the dice results in favor for what they had planned. This fact is rather unfortunate as it heavily implies that the GM team lacks the skill to be flexible in the incidents and runs they create.

That's not to say that the lack of calibrated DCs isn't one of the root causes, but the lack of them gives GMs the excuse to set any DC that they desire.

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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1908467Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1908467
Thu, 05 Dec 2013 02:14:17 +0000Wogglebug1341523
While I don't think that that guide in particular would necessarily be what we should go with, I do agree that we should make DCs more easily assumed, by adhering to a set of guidelines.
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1907802Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1907802
Wed, 04 Dec 2013 06:16:20 +0000Tehpillowstar1555782

We're trying to do this now, with implementation of an ongoing plot with rules, rather than runs/soft rp cycle. We're shooting for something along Snowshoe's prefab plotline, possibly on a slightly larger scale.

While I like the idea of a large, constant plot arc, I think it would be better and more beneficial for a large, underlying myth arc. A constant state of affairs that doesn't have to end (Unless you want it to) that the characters can only see funneled through their tiny peephole. A underlying theme under thousands of stories both big and small,

We already disallow characters who were sent to 354 for 'lolketerduty' reasons. This seems like it would be more up to the individual player to rp this out, rather than the responsibility of the GM team. As stated above, we do screen the sheets for this foolishness beforehand.

I appreciate the effort, but it doesn't hurt to place more higher standards on character creation, like getting more than one GM to approve and to disallow characters with questionable histories and occupations.

I disagree with your conclusion here, but do agree we could do more to make this seem more like an SCP RP. FR has never been really strongly connected to the rest of the SCPverse, but it could be fun to have some skip themed runs.

I think that making FR into a more SCP RP should go deeper than just having skip-themed runs. SCPverse is inherent not within the SCPs, but within the mood, the setting, the work of the characters and the bureaucracy they are part of in. While runs taking place within the universe the #farrecon side takes place would help, it wouldn't be enough.

As I mentioned above, with a planned plot, we would resolve this by having a driving 'goal' for the poolboys to be working towards. During the rebuild, it was the reconstruction of the site. Since then, it's been not much of anything. I think adding a goal of some sort would go a long way towards fixing monster of the week/drift-feelings.

I think it will help, along with an underlying theme/mythology. Give players and characters a goal to build up to with the plot, and a sense of purpose (or something else!) in the latter.

To be fair, this is not shooting for the same tone of the SCPverse. From the perspective of the most prolific SCP writer in site history, there really isn't one consistent tone guiding every SCP, just a set of guidelines in presentation.

Of course not, but the SCPverse tends to have a general tone, even though not all SCPs are creepy and scary. Creepy and scary with nothing else to contrast it gets old after a while. I believe, that moderation in tone, between the light-hearted goofiness and the heavy grimdark, along with moderation in moderation1, is where FR shines. Because a tone that keeps balance and yet occasionally indulges in goofy lighthearted goodness or oppressive, hopeless grimdark, or even stuff like events that warm the heart, make us cry, make us pump our fists over the awesome, is stronger. Why? Because when emotional highs act like highlights, they become so much more powerful, able to contrast against the background. When you watch an action movie filled with car chases, explosions and nothing else…it's not very exciting, now is it?

Far Recon can have the tone of the SCPverse, and yet you don't have to drop everything else that isn't grimdark and scary.

I think this could be abused to make some people wicked OP in certain skills. I don't think we really need this.

My original idea with this was to apply what most RPGs do right now: Make the skill cost more the more you buy. For example, let's say I buy a +1 ranged upgrade. Then time passes and I decide that I want another ranged upgrade. However, this time around the ranged upgrade should cost /more/, because I already bought one.

A cap into how high you can push your skill via +1 upgrades can also be implemented. For example, not letting people get over 10 via +1 upgrades.

The idea is that raising your base stats beyond just +1 should be more expensive than buying an item, because a base stat is so much more useful and flexible than an item that provides a buff.

We're thinking of a new skill to replace throw. This will probably be phased in with the aforementioned skill restatting, and allowing people with thrown one free restat.

I'm a bit iffy on this, if only because you can have all throws use strength rolls. It makes the stat stronger. With the restat, I guess I'm okay with it although I don't see why you don't just have the characters with thrown stash those points into other places.

Honestly don't think this is necessary, and the work required to go through and figure out some rebalancing and other changes is more effort than it's worth. Not considering this unless something drastic makes me reconsider.

I believe that 4df is better because it makes players roll their stat values more consistently, and paired with less insane DCs, encourage players to stat their characters as they wish instead of indulging in insane min-maxing in order to have their characters just win DC checks.

Footnotes

1. Meaning that constantly trying to reach a midpoint between the two makes for a boring work, as it's just the same all the time. Like eating peach ice cream every day.

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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1907525Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1907525
Tue, 03 Dec 2013 21:22:52 +0000strife26447121
Is there any chance that we could stop having dc's be so random? I'd propose that http://far-recon.wikidot.com/calibrating-your-dcs be made hard and fast rules, because, as is, a lot of the time I feel like we're playing on railroad tracks with the occasional dice roll to determine if we have to put one foot off the rails before we keep going down them.
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1904783Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1904783
Sat, 30 Nov 2013 02:07:46 +0000Roget1229263

Consistency

Internal Consistency

The internal logic and rules needs to be maintained

We're trying to do this now, with implementation of an ongoing plot with rules, rather than runs/soft rp cycle. We're shooting for something along Snowshoe's prefab plotline, possibly on a slightly larger scale.

* External Consistency * Redefine Department Roles * Espionage explores and investigates * Security deals with threats * Research takes samples and discovers the basis behind the weirdness * Maintenance takes care of the physical equipment of the site, as well as helping to create whatever is needed

This is more or less how I already see the departments, I think this is fine. If the current descriptions don't reflect this, I can go in and change them. Let me know if this is the case, as I'm not going to be checking that page right now.

* More accommodations with psychological help with stress1 * Regular counseling sessions, group counseling sessions, encouragement of productive hobbies and pets

This seems fine. I'd be willing to allow characters to requisition more personal items to make their workplaces seem more like a home.

* Characters should act like professionals, and expected to react to the weirdness in a professional manner.2

We already disallow characters who were sent to 354 for 'lolketerduty' reasons. This seems like it would be more up to the individual player to rp this out, rather than the responsibility of the GM team. As stated above, we do screen the sheets for this foolishness beforehand.

* Care should be made to portray characters as professionals

See my above response.

* But this does not mean that they cannot be memorable or unique.

See my above response.

* Or that players and GMs must be experts on military, bureaucratic or emergency procedures3

I'll never give somebody shit for not knowing miliary procedures. That being said, you should have some awareness of things your character claims to know. If you know next to nothing about the army, perhaps you ought to not make an army character.

* Genre Consistency * Far Recon is not an SCP Foundation RP

I disagree with your conclusion here, but do agree we could do more to make this seem more like an SCP RP. FR has never been really strongly connected to the rest of the SCPverse, but it could be fun to have some skip themed runs.

As I mentioned above, with a planned plot, we would resolve this by having a driving 'goal' for the poolboys to be working towards. During the rebuild, it was the reconstruction of the site. Since then, it's been not much of anything. I think ading a goal of some sort would go a long way towards fixing monster of the week/drift-feelings.

To be fair, this is not shooting for the same tone of the SCPverse. From the perspective of the most prolific SCP writer in site history, there really isn't one consistent tone guiding every SCP, just a set of guidelines in presentation.

* Very loose and liberal interpretation of SCP-354

I don't see this as a problem.

* Randomness and Softrp * Incidents happen without warning and disrupt softrp * Random events and caricatured NPCs make it difficult to roleplay a realistic character

I've actually already taken steps to address this. We'll be making sure people are aware and okay with it before launching an incident. If there's one person rping, though, we still might mess with him to stir up RP.

Restating

This is on our to-do list, and will probably be implemented in some form before the years end.

Unlockable Equipment * Frag grenade mechanics

This is really in the purview of the GM doing the run. If the grenades are used in a way that actually requires specific mechanics governing them, we will consider this. Right now, we'll see how people use them now that they're more open for use.

* Phase out the prohibitively expensive, overly specialized, and mundane equipment, and replace it it expensive, prototype, or exotic equipment.

* An official crafting system

Pres is on this right now, talk to him about it.

* Stacking flat +1 stat increases

I think this could be abused to make some people wicked OP in certain skills. I don't think we really need this.

* Make more Unlockable Equipment free, but cost load

This has already been done.

* Phasing out Throw

We're thinking of a new skill to replace throw. This will probably be phased in with the aforementioned skill restatting, and allowing people with thrown one free restat.

* Have grenades use strength This has already been done.

* Buffing and Defining what Academics, Survival and Science does

I honestly haven't seen this as a problem, people doing runs seem to have been able to use all of these skills just fine.

* Switching to 4df

Honestly don't think this is necessary, and the work required to go through and figure out some rebalancing and other changes is more effort than it's worth. Not considering this unless something drastic makes me reconsider.

The rest in this section I don't have any thoughts on, I'd leave it to the rest of my team to determine if they're a good idea or not.

Footnotes

1. Due to the expectation that the Poolboys get no leaves and do not expect relief to come.

2. Due to the fact that it's generally assumed that capable professionals are sent to Keter Duty, not random schlups found at an airport departure lounge.

4. Incidents and runs happen, but are disconnected from each other in a larger scale

5. Players are not allowed to leave Area-354 beyond a small circumference around the site.

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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1904774Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1904774
Sat, 30 Nov 2013 01:39:07 +0000Roget1229263
I've implemented it.
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1900168Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1900168
Sat, 23 Nov 2013 20:51:46 +0000PresidentEvil1296208
I believe a crafting system could benefit us, but it would have to be implemented and tested carefully. Some concerns:

First, the items crafted need to be interesting and useful, otherwise people won't find the system worthwhile.

The amount of effort needed to craft something should be proportionate to its usefulness for balance purposes.

People shouldn't be able to boost their crafting skills with crafting to the point of snowballing, because that opens the possibility of boosting their skill, using their higher skill to build items that boost their skill even further, repeat ad nauseam. If you did this in Morrowind with potions, you could break the game extremely easily.

Crafting needs to be widely available. Maintenance or research should not have a monopoly. Every character type or department should be able to create items relevant to their field.

At the same time, it would not make sense to allow anyone to create anything. A gun bunny with no electronics skill should not be able to create a custom laptop or hacking software.

Crafting an item should not be easy. It should take the character and player time and effort. If the process requires hard-to-get materials, rare tools, or very obscure information the character should have to roleplay to gain access to what items they need.

Finally, reasonable limits must be set in the name of consistency and game balance. No tanks, Strife.

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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1900119Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1900119
Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:40:35 +0000Wogglebug1341523
I like the idea of Thrown being phased out,and the changes to equipment, and a crafting system (though I'm not sure how such a thing would work), and buffing rolls, and altering mdef, and making characters editable based on what actually happens.
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1900112Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1900112
Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:36:54 +0000Wogglebug1341523
I like this idea.
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1899879Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1899879
Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:06:51 +0000Tehpillowstar1555782
Just to start listing stuff…

Far Recon Canon issues

Consistency

Internal Consistency

The internal logic and rules needs to be maintained

External Consistency

Redefine Department Roles

Espionage explores and investigates

Security deals with threats

Research takes samples and discovers the basis behind the weirdness

Maintenance takes care of the physical equipment of the site, as well as helping to create whatever is needed

10. Should players be allowed to edit their character sheets to reflect the character they play?

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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1899821Internal Consistency Issueshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1899821
Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:34:23 +0000jedifanatic1735661
While FR is independent of the SCP website, the setting is definitely built from there. As such, it is generally assumed that the individuals sent to keter sites are capable professionals, both those characters run by players and the npcs controlled by the GMs. Furthermore, while having definite and distinct characteristics can make npc's memorable, care must be taken to maintain the sense of professionalism. This does not mean that either players or GMs have to become experts in military, bureacratic, or emergency procedures, but it does mean that those players and gm's must be willing to consult both general internet sources, as well as community resources in the form of members of the FR community.

Weirdness is perfectly acceptable and to be expected. Something like the pool, as has been established in story, has almost reality bending powers. However, the powers that be, meaning the Directors and other supervisors, must be expected to respond to the weirdness in a professional manner. This specifically refers to the purpose of the poolboys, that being the job of containing the effects of the pool's weirdness to the site. Having the occasional obstructive bureaucrat can be an enjoyable role play experience to perform. Something that must be kept in mind, however, is that in a professional hierarchy if lower members of that hierarchy have concerns, those higher up are expected to listen to and address those concerns in a productive manner. Sometimes that is conducted through counciling, but it can also be done by changes in procedures. The "call" might be the Directors, but they should be expected to ask for input based on the operators knowledge and immediate experience.

The distinct apparati of the site are to be expected to collaborate, but each must be sensitive of the obligations of the others. Security deals with threats, Espionage explores and investigates, Research takes samples and discovers the basis behind the weirdness, and Maintenence takes care of the physical equipment of the site, as well as helping to create whatever is needed. Each character, whether NPC or PC, should be expected to respond in a manner appropriate to their area of responsibility.

Given that the individuals at the pool are effectively there without leave or expected relief, there would be accomadations made to help with the psycological stresses of their job. The rec room is nice, and a good start. However, there would be other outlets, like regular counciling sessions, both group and individual, as well as an encouragement of productive hobbies like gardening and pets long term health would require these sorts of things. They are no more damaging, less in fact, than allowing a married couple and an adoptive father to work together on site. A comparable analogy is that of a military force that is based overseas. Not a military force that is on deployment, given that that has a termination date that the soldiers have a relative expectation of seeing, but a force like that which exists in either Japan or South Korea. They are allowed to make their surroundings more like a permanent home to help cope with the challenges of serving outside of the US.

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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1899740Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1899740
Sat, 23 Nov 2013 04:54:56 +0000Roget1229263
A thought, that I know several people have floated before: Making a lot of the unlockable equipment that does no stat boosts be part of a pool of free equipment anyone can add to their sheets during initial creation(it would also be available to existing characters for the same free price). This frees up GMs, who can assume people have gas masks and stuff, and maybe do a run on the poison planet of doom. Would this be a change people would like to see?
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1899728Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1899728
Sat, 23 Nov 2013 04:27:44 +0000LurkD1500566
The purpose of this thread is to be used to help with record keeping and transparency for issues regarding the RP either IC or OOC. We encourage you to freely post logs, comments, concerns, grievances, suggestions, or the like here so that they can be addressed as timely as possible. We all want to be constructive and open here but if you want to send a pastebin or tell to a respective GM, feel free to do that as well. Just keep in mind that it will be shared around the team to address said issue. Turn around time for answers will be dependent on what the issue is and who is available. If you have questions regarding this feel free to contact myself or another person on the team.
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1896917Re: A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1896917
Wed, 20 Nov 2013 04:44:28 +0000Roget1229263http://pastebin.com/RMtf3gX9
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http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706#post-1896914A Discussion of Concernshttp://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729706/a-discussion-of-concerns#post-1896914
Wed, 20 Nov 2013 04:42:03 +0000WalrusKing1742623
Logs of the 11/19 great discussion event, in which topics for discussion were suggested, and several problems and concerns were brought up, and discussed. This is likely to have a part II at some point, but anyone who wants to provide input should definitely comment here too. This discussion was born of TPS's concerns about FR's consistency, and has since expanded into more topics. I will likely be yanking the juicier bits out for ease of access when I feel more awake. ACTUAL LINK IS BELOW.
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