This isn't for your 2-step plan to round up every illegal and build a giant lava-filled moat on the border with armed snipers every 200 feet.

This idea that everyone is going to be rounded up and shipped out is about as likely as a Socialist Revolution occuring.

It seems that there is two issues:
1. The people who are currently here who immigrated illegally.
2. The flow of new illegal immigrants.

What do you identify as the causes of this situation, and what can be (realistically) done to help alleviate the problem?

One argument I've heard is that regulations need to be removed that make domestic labor so expensive and thus which makes illegal labor so appealing. Some people may have come to post this idea but do you really think that lowering American wages down to the same wages illegal immigrants get is the solution?

For example, wouldn't lowering the minimum wage to $2 an hour make domestic labor more attractive? I'm sure it would, and I'm sure the unemployment rate would drop considerably too, but is that actually a good thing to have more people employed but still not making enough to sustain themselves or their families? To me, it seems like this idea would do more harm to American workers than illegal immigrants ever could.

Any other ideas?

NJCardFan

02-09-2011, 03:30 PM

For starters, law enforcement should do their jobs.

Rockntractor

02-09-2011, 03:32 PM

What do you identify as the causes of this situation, and what can be (realistically) done to help alleviate the problem?

The cause of the situation you refer to is foreign nationals disregarding our laws and invading our country, tell them to leave at gunpoint. What other rational thing is there to do with an invader?

Wei Wu Wei

02-09-2011, 03:38 PM

Well they don't exactly waltz right up to a police station and declare themselves illegal and ask if they can stay, I don't think it's that simple

Wei Wu Wei

02-09-2011, 03:43 PM

I think we need to realize that short of full scale military intervention, if there is high demand for people to come to America illegal, they will do it.

Having troops standing on guard all across the border, digging out their underground tunnels and having Middle-East-Style checkpoints in every border state with extreme levels of harrassment might stop some people from getting in, but it's extremely impractical and even if it weren't, it's only a bandaid.

This approach only looks to address the symptoms, without looking at the causes.

If we just take a purely enforcement approach we'll end up in a similar situation aas we have with the War on Drugs. We spend billions of dollars a year on drug enforcement with draconian punishments, but the nation is still filled with drugs and drug use.

Alcohol prohibition enforcement didn't stop the alcohol trade, drug enforcement hasn't stopped the drug trade, they both thrived through the increased enforcement because the realities of the drug situation in America along with the causes and fact that it was already embedded in our culture were all ignored in favor of pure enforcement.

Here with the issue of illegal immigration, we can make it harder for them to come in, but it's only going to result in people taking even more dangerous routes towards entry.

Enforcement of laws is obviously necessary, but there will never be the "right amount" of enforcement, it will never be enough on it's own.

Gingersnap

02-09-2011, 03:47 PM

If employers can't count on illegal aliens as labor, they will have to employ Americans at a fair wage (not a dream wage). Supply and demand will hammer out the middle ground for this. Large sectors can't outsource employment. In my own family, people who have worked in construction for 20 years have been pushed out of the business because companies using illegal labor can underbid jobs.

Send the employers to jail for 10 days per violation and you'll see some change.

Odysseus

02-09-2011, 05:06 PM

This isn't for your 2-step plan to round up every illegal and build a giant lava-filled moat on the border with armed snipers every 200 feet.

This idea that everyone is going to be rounded up and shipped out is about as likely as a Socialist Revolution occuring.

It seems that there is two issues:
1. The people who are currently here who immigrated illegally.
2. The flow of new illegal immigrants.

What do you identify as the causes of this situation, and what can be (realistically) done to help alleviate the problem?

One argument I've heard is that regulations need to be removed that make domestic labor so expensive and thus which makes illegal labor so appealing. Some people may have come to post this idea but do you really think that lowering American wages down to the same wages illegal immigrants get is the solution?

For example, wouldn't lowering the minimum wage to $2 an hour make domestic labor more attractive? I'm sure it would, and I'm sure the unemployment rate would drop considerably too, but is that actually a good thing to have more people employed but still not making enough to sustain themselves or their families? To me, it seems like this idea would do more harm to American workers than illegal immigrants ever could.

Any other ideas?

You've clearly never met a payroll. Direct labor costs are not just wages, and government mandates at every level drive up those costs. Pension plan contributions are mandated in some states, especially in the case of unions. Health insurance, disability insurance and workers compensation premiums add to the cost, as do the employer's portion of federal and state taxes as well as FICA (Social Security and Medicare). States that demand that workers join unions have both the highest unemployment rates and the highest rates of illegal immigration, proving that labor market can be shifted to illegals when the cost of labor becomes too much for employers. Reducing those mandates will reduce the cost differential between legal and illegal labor. Also, the vast majority of minimum wage earners are not supporting families on them. They are persons who are entering the workforce for the first time, or people taking part time work (students, teenagers, unskilled workers reentering the workforce) and who will work their way out of it as they gain marketable job skills and experience. Eliminating the minimum wage won't hurt people who are sustaining themselves or their families, but it will hurt liberals who pay their illegal nannies less than the minimum while demanding higher pay for everyone employed by everyone but themselves.

Second, anchor babies are a horrible problem, not just because they attract illegals, but because pregnant women take wild risks to cross the border in order to give birth in the US at a time when their health is most at risk. The perverse incentives endanger these women and their children. The Constitution states that all persons born in the US are citizens, but there is no obligation to grant residency to the parents of an infant who is born here, except in cases of extenuating circumstances. Babies born in the US are citizens, but the parents are not, and should be given a choice: Leave the baby here, as a ward of the state, or take him/her back to the old country and let them come back when they come of age. In a similar vein, there is no reason why adult relatives of legal immigrants should be permitted to come to the US and immediately become recipients of public funds. Residency must be conditional on being gainfully employed or being supported by your relative. Social Security is for people who have paid into the system, not freeloading relatives of freeloading anchor babies, and if immigrants are really here to take jobs that Americans won't do, then they can take those jobs and not sponge off the rest of us.

Third, illegal immigrants who commit felonies should be deported immediately after they have served their prison terms. Those prison terms should include hard labor whenever possible, so as to offset the cost of their incarceration. Deported illegals who return should be subject to mandatory prison terms and immediate expulsion upon release. No parole, no probation. Those illegals who commit capital crimes should be executed. Those governments that refuse to extradite persons subject to capital punishment should have their visa quotas reduced and the applications more heavily scrutinized to prevent more felonious immigration.

Fast-track immigration and naturalization should also be introduced for the following categories of people:

Minor children of legal immigrants.
Foreign born spouses of legal immigrants or military personnel.
Persons who have served the United States in the armed forces.
Persons who have taken risks on behalf of US personnel in peril of their lives (think of the Iraqi doctor who kept the Mukhabarat from torturing Jessica Lynch as an example).
Children and spouses of persons who have died while taking risks on behalf of US personnel.
Opponents of regimes hostile to America seeking asylum.

Conditional residency (no welfare or other benefits, presence contingent on good behavior and absence of criminal record or anti-American activities) would be for the following categories:

Dependent relatives (retired parents, minor siblings) of citizens, naturalized or other.
Spouses of US citizens not included in the previous category.
Immigration Priorities (for persons not included in the above categories, for consideration for entry):

English fluency and literacy.
No criminal record (political crimes in hostile regimes excluded if not relevent to US entry)
Critical skills or employment category.

Bars to Entry:

Having taken up arms against the United States or advocated the overthrow of the Constitutional government.
Public activism against American policies or persons.
Membership in any organization that has attacked the United States or American interests.

Finally, the Alien and Naturalization Act specifies that persons who are United States citizens may renounce their citizenship, but does not specify the manner in which they can do so. I submit that the act should be amended to stipulate that the public burning or desecration of the United States flag or other national symbols shall be construed as a public renunciation of citizenship, and those persons who do so will be deported to any nation that will have them.

Chuck58

02-09-2011, 05:13 PM

For starters, law enforcement should do their jobs.

I'll correct that, being former law enforcement:

"Law enforcement should be ALLOWED to do their jobs."

Our new governor Susana Martinez here in NM has proposed fixing a couple of things our former fool, Billy Richardson created. She's catching hell from the democratic state legislature.

She signed an executive order that police will check the immigration status of anyone considered questionable during a contact. It's taken from the Arizona law. Under Richardson, this wasn't allowed. The legislature is working on a bill to stop her from doing it. They have the numbers to override a veto.

She's also trying to force a bill through that will remove driver's licenses from illegal aliens, which Richardson got passed a few years ago. I doubt it'll make it through the legislature.

Believe me, the cops here in NM would love to be able to round the SOB's up. Albuquerque is a city of about 500K, with over a million in the metro area. There are an estimated 40K illegals. Nearly half the crimes, resulting in arrests, were by illegal aliens. Nearly half of NM's drunk driver arrests are illegal aliens. We're talking a state with 2.2 million people and an estimated 150K illegals.

Calypso Jones

02-09-2011, 07:01 PM

Close the borders. Set up those heat guns that Prison guards want to use on prisoners to break up fights. In more dangerous areas, shoot the interloper and hang their carcasses on the fence to dry. :D Make it illegal to claim sanctuary city status. Incarcerate the officials that have a hand in it for a very very very long time....and make it unpleasant. Don't allow the DMV to 1) issue drivers licenses to anyone with less than three pieces of ID and 2) no motor voter registration. Require employers to make every honest effort to insure they are not hiring illegals.

virginia just passed E-verify today.

NJCardFan

02-09-2011, 09:24 PM

Close the borders. Set up those heat guns that Prison guards want to use on prisoners to break up fights. In more dangerous areas, shoot the interloper and hang their carcasses on the fence to dry. :D Make it illegal to claim sanctuary city status. Incarcerate the officials that have a hand in it for a very very very long time....and make it unpleasant. Don't allow the DMV to 1) issue drivers licenses to anyone with less than three pieces of ID and 2) no motor voter registration. Require employers to make every honest effort to insure they are not hiring illegals.

virginia just passed E-verify today.

Actually, I'd like to line up Hummers every few miles, each equipped with a mini-gun. Set up lights that go off as soon as someone crosses a line into our territory and as soon as those lights go on, open up the mini-guns. Start mowing these idiots down and they'll stop.

Novaheart

02-09-2011, 10:45 PM

This isn't for your 2-step plan to round up every illegal and build a giant lava-filled moat on the border with armed snipers every 200 feet.

This idea that everyone is going to be rounded up and shipped out is about as likely as a Socialist Revolution occuring.

It seems that there is two issues:
1. The people who are currently here who immigrated illegally.
2. The flow of new illegal immigrants.

What do you identify as the causes of this situation, and what can be (realistically) done to help alleviate the problem?

One argument I've heard is that regulations need to be removed that make domestic labor so expensive and thus which makes illegal labor so appealing. Some people may have come to post this idea but do you really think that lowering American wages down to the same wages illegal immigrants get is the solution?

For example, wouldn't lowering the minimum wage to $2 an hour make domestic labor more attractive? I'm sure it would, and I'm sure the unemployment rate would drop considerably too, but is that actually a good thing to have more people employed but still not making enough to sustain themselves or their families? To me, it seems like this idea would do more harm to American workers than illegal immigrants ever could.

Any other ideas?

For starters, stop promoting the idea that the only thing we can do about illegal aliens is give them a "path to citizenship".

We can be hostile as hell, and give them a path to jail or a path to the border.

For starters, we can start being overtly hostile to illegal aliens and the people who harbor them.

For starters, we can fix the anchor baby bullshit by winning a court case against the current interpretation of the 14th amendment.

Paint over the vandalism and graffiti in Hispanic neighborhoods.

Stop teaching school in Spanish.

Stop doing business in Spanish.

Learn to say , "If you need me to speak Spanish, then you need to go to a Spanish speaking country."

Rockntractor

02-09-2011, 11:05 PM

For starters, stop promoting the idea that the only thing we can do about illegal aliens is give them a "path to citizenship".

We can be hostile as hell, and give them a path to jail or a path to the border.

For starters, we can start being overtly hostile to illegal aliens and the people who harbor them.

For starters, we can fix the anchor baby bullshit by winning a court case against the current interpretation of the 14th amendment.

Paint over the vandalism and graffiti in Hispanic neighborhoods.

Stop teaching school in Spanish.

Stop doing business in Spanish.

Learn to say , "If you need me to speak Spanish, then you need to go to a Spanish speaking country."

One of my least favorite arguments is that we can't bus them back to Mexico. They made it here without us providing transportation so they can make it back.
Take away any incentive for them to be here, jobs money housing and put stiff criminal penalties on them if they don't leave.
We sent a bunch of them packing after world war II and we could do it again, we just don't want to.

FeebMaster

02-09-2011, 11:22 PM

Get rid of all citizenship verification for employers.
Get rid of all the entitlement programs conservatives get all riled up about illegal aliens using.
Repeal all gun control.
Loosen up the self defense laws.
End the war on drugs for good measure.

Oh, you said realistically... In that case, nothing.

Chuck58

02-10-2011, 01:11 AM

I like the mini-gun idea.

Where we live, not far from the border, and not the most active part compared to Arizona, I can't think of a soul who isn't carrying a gun when they leave their home. We're pretty rural, with small towns and villages, so it isn't that unusual to be armed during normal times, but it's different now and for the past decade or so. Carrying a gun has gone from being a western or cowboy 'thing' to being a part of your wardrobe self defense necessity.

I think I've mentioned here long ago that a couple of years ago an elderly, 80+ yrs old, widow neighbor was mugged by illegals on her way to the post office in the nearby village - in broad daylight. She's Hispanic and recognized them as Mexican because their accent is different than NM Spanish. She still walks to the post office, about 100 yds from her home. Now, she carries her late husband's handgun.

My solution: start shooting on sight any illegals crossing the border. It wouldn't take long before they got the message. Some would still try, just as there have always been some coming over. It wouldn't be the flood we had and still have, though.

Odysseus

02-10-2011, 10:53 AM

Okay, we've got plenty of ideas to discuss. Wei? Oh, Wei? Are you there, Wei? Don't you want to discuss this? I mean, you brought it up... Wei? Anybody seen Wei? :rolleyes:

Wei Wu Wei

02-10-2011, 12:15 PM

For starters, stop promoting the idea that the only thing we can do about illegal aliens is give them a "path to citizenship".

What's wrong with that idea?

If they become citizens, they fall under the umbrella of minimum wage laws as well as other labor regulations, and lose their appeal of being really cheap labor.

It's win-win, American workers don't have to compete with illegal workers who operate under-the-table for sub-minimum wages, and the immigrants have a much more fair exchange of their hard labor.

Do you just want to be a dick to them or is there some rationale behind this?

We can be hostile as hell, and give them a path to jail or a path to the border.

There are just too many people. The problem obviously arises that we can not tell who is legal and who is illegal. The task of filtering out the illegal immigrants from the legal immigrants or simply hispanic Americans is totally impractical. The costs would be outrageous and I cannot see a way to do this without seriously harassing legal hispanic Americans.

For starters, we can start being overtly hostile to illegal aliens and the people who harbor them.

They are already treated like shit. I suppose you could go after employers, but the simple fact is that there is a huge demand for cheap labor and the immigrants have a huge demand to eat. Being a dick isn't going to stop people from doing what they have to do to feed their families.

For starters, we can fix the anchor baby bullshit by winning a court case against the current interpretation of the 14th amendment.

The constitution is very clear that being born in America makes you an American citizen. If you base you citizenship on the actions or crimes of your ancestors you set an extremely dangerous precedent.

Paint over the vandalism and graffiti in Hispanic neighborhoods.

Paint over them every two weeks? :rolleyes:

That money going down the drain could be better spent improving the socioeconomic conditions of those who live in these neighborhoods.

Stop teaching school in Spanish.

There are spanish-speaking people in this country. Deal with it.

Stop doing business in Spanish.

Businesses are going to do whatever gets them the most profit, and because Spanish is the 2nd most spoken language in the country, you're crazy if you think businesses are going to cut off their business with a huge consumer base just to appease your ethnocentrism.

Learn to say , "If you need me to speak Spanish, then you need to go to a Spanish speaking country."

This is a Spanish speaking country you fool. America isn't one homogeneous culture, it's a mixture of cultures and it always has been.

Crying about a language destroying our way of life is just as stupid as crying about gay people destroying marriage or being a risk to straight people's families.

Rockntractor

02-10-2011, 12:18 PM

What's wrong with that idea?

If they become citizens, they fall under the umbrella of minimum wage laws as well as other labor regulations, and lose their appeal of being really cheap labor.

It's win-win, American workers don't have to compete with illegal workers who operate under-the-table for sub-minimum wages, and the immigrants have a much more fair exchange of their hard labor.

Do you just want to be a dick to them or is there some rationale behind this?

There are just too many people. The problem obviously arises that we can not tell who is legal and who is illegal. The task of filtering out the illegal immigrants from the legal immigrants or simply hispanic Americans is totally impractical. The costs would be outrageous and I cannot see a way to do this without seriously harassing legal hispanic Americans.

They are already treated like shit. I suppose you could go after employers, but the simple fact is that there is a huge demand for cheap labor and the immigrants have a huge demand to eat. Being a dick isn't going to stop people from doing what they have to do to feed their families.

The constitution is very clear that being born in America makes you an American citizen. If you base you citizenship on the actions or crimes of your ancestors you set an extremely dangerous precedent.

Paint over them every two weeks? :rolleyes:

That money going down the drain could be better spent improving the socioeconomic conditions of those who live in these neighborhoods.

There are spanish-speaking people in this country. Deal with it.

Businesses are going to do whatever gets them the most profit, and because Spanish is the 2nd most spoken language in the country, you're crazy if you think businesses are going to cut off their business with a huge consumer base just to appease your ethnocentrism.

This is a Spanish speaking country you fool. America isn't one homogeneous culture, it's a mixture of cultures and it always has been.

Crying about a language destroying our way of life is just as stupid as crying about gay people destroying marriage or being a risk to straight people's families.

In reality we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% of our population unemployed, if we send back the invaders that have crashed our borders we could put half of those people back to work.

Wei Wu Wei

02-10-2011, 12:21 PM

"send them back" is not a plan. how many times do I have to say this, it isn't even complicated it doesn't even require reading a book.

you can't just push a button and all illegal immigrants dissapear. you can't just make a law and they all leave. it would take a HUGE and very expensive and very difficult plan to organize and execute a "round them up and ship them out" policy, and it would most likely be extremely harassing because you cannot tell who is illegal and who is not without stopping themn and checking for their papers.

illegals don't walk around with blinking lights above their heads, there is no way to simply "send them back" without violating the rights of American Hispanics.

Rockntractor

02-10-2011, 12:24 PM

"send them back" is not a plan. how many times do I have to say this, it isn't even complicated it doesn't even require reading a book.

you can't just push a button and all illegal immigrants dissapear. you can't just make a law and they all leave. it would take a HUGE and very expensive and very difficult plan to organize and execute a "round them up and ship them out" policy, and it would most likely be extremely harassing because you cannot tell who is illegal and who is not without stopping themn and checking for their papers.

illegals don't walk around with blinking lights above their heads, there is no way to simply "send them back" without violating the rights of American Hispanics.

Point a gun at them and they will go home, You can go with them and teach them how to turn their country into a giant welfare program, they will be okay!:)

Wei Wu Wei

02-10-2011, 12:30 PM

You've clearly never met a payroll. Direct labor costs are not just wages, and government mandates at every level drive up those costs. Pension plan contributions are mandated in some states, especially in the case of unions. Health insurance, disability insurance and workers compensation premiums add to the cost, as do the employer's portion of federal and state taxes as well as FICA (Social Security and Medicare). States that demand that workers join unions have both the highest unemployment rates and the highest rates of illegal immigration, proving that labor market can be shifted to illegals when the cost of labor becomes too much for employers. Reducing those mandates will reduce the cost differential between legal and illegal labor. Also, the vast majority of minimum wage earners are not supporting families on them. They are persons who are entering the workforce for the first time, or people taking part time work (students, teenagers, unskilled workers reentering the workforce) and who will work their way out of it as they gain marketable job skills and experience. Eliminating the minimum wage won't hurt people who are sustaining themselves or their families, but it will hurt liberals who pay their illegal nannies less than the minimum while demanding higher pay for everyone employed by everyone but themselves.

Dismantling labor laws in order to get rid of immigrants has to be the worst idea. If the minimum wage drops to $1.75 an hour we are in DEEP trouble as a country.

You will then have people working for $4 an hour and being expected to like it because it's twice the minimum wage.

Why don't we just go back to only letting white property owners vote for the love of god

Second, anchor babies are a horrible problem, not just because they attract illegals, but because pregnant women take wild risks to cross the border in order to give birth in the US at a time when their health is most at risk. The perverse incentives endanger these women and their children. The Constitution states that all persons born in the US are citizens, but there is no obligation to grant residency to the parents of an infant who is born here, except in cases of extenuating circumstances. Babies born in the US are citizens, but the parents are not, and should be given a choice: Leave the baby here, as a ward of the state, or take him/her back to the old country and let them come back when they come of age.

Even if they did what you want, and all of the parents leave (assuming you can identify them and force them to leave, which is of course a huge leap) then you just end up with children returning to the US in 18 years, as US citizens, but without American education, without job training, probably without being able to speak english.

You are seriously suggesting we get countless children, and deport them for 18 years then let them come back? You don't see how that would be a problem?

Also, it's been settled already that parents cannot revoke the US citizenship of their children, their children have to demonstrate a proper understanding of all of the implications and rules about citizenship so you cannot get out of having these kids come back looking for work when they are older.

In a similar vein, there is no reason why adult relatives of legal immigrants should be permitted to come to the US and immediately become recipients of public funds. Residency must be conditional on being gainfully employed or being supported by your relative. Social Security is for people who have paid into the system, not freeloading relatives of freeloading anchor babies, and if immigrants are really here to take jobs that Americans won't do, then they can take those jobs and not sponge off the rest of us.

If their children are US citizens then those children are entitled to all of the programs that American citizens are.

Third, illegal immigrants who commit felonies should be deported immediately after they have served their prison terms. Those prison terms should include hard labor whenever possible, so as to offset the cost of their incarceration. Deported illegals who return should be subject to mandatory prison terms and immediate expulsion upon release. No parole, no probation. Those illegals who commit capital crimes should be executed. Those governments that refuse to extradite persons subject to capital punishment should have their visa quotas reduced and the applications more heavily scrutinized to prevent more felonious immigration.

I'm not down with state-sanctioned killing being thrown around so casually but I agree that criminal felons should be punished harshly and deported.

Fast-track immigration and naturalization should also be introduced for the following categories of people:

Minor children of legal immigrants.
Foreign born spouses of legal immigrants or military personnel.
Persons who have served the United States in the armed forces.
Persons who have taken risks on behalf of US personnel in peril of their lives (think of the Iraqi doctor who kept the Mukhabarat from torturing Jessica Lynch as an example).
Children and spouses of persons who have died while taking risks on behalf of US personnel.
Opponents of regimes hostile to America seeking asylum.

Conditional residency (no welfare or other benefits, presence contingent on good behavior and absence of criminal record or anti-American activities) would be for the following categories:

Dependent relatives (retired parents, minor siblings) of citizens, naturalized or other.
Spouses of US citizens not included in the previous category.
Immigration Priorities (for persons not included in the above categories, for consideration for entry):

English fluency and literacy.
No criminal record (political crimes in hostile regimes excluded if not relevent to US entry)
Critical skills or employment category.

Bars to Entry:

Having taken up arms against the United States or advocated the overthrow of the Constitutional government.
Public activism against American policies or persons.
Membership in any organization that has attacked the United States or American interests.

Finally, the Alien and Naturalization Act specifies that persons who are United States citizens may renounce their citizenship, but does not specify the manner in which they can do so. I submit that the act should be amended to stipulate that the public burning or desecration of the United States flag or other national symbols shall be construed as a public renunciation of citizenship, and those persons who do so will be deported to any nation that will have them.

Much of this seems fair.

I think that focusing on integrating the productive immigrants into our society will actually do us a lot of good, as opposed to a mass roundup which won't solve the problem.

Wei Wu Wei

02-10-2011, 12:33 PM

Point a gun at them and they will go home, You can go with them and teach them how to turn their country into a giant welfare program, they will be okay!:)

great plan

Let me expand on my plan to win the war in Afghanistan: shoot the bad guys and win

The cure for world hunger? someone should tell all the starving people to work harder lol

Rockntractor

02-10-2011, 12:39 PM

great plan

Let me expand on my plan to win the war in Afghanistan: shoot the bad guys and win

The cure for world hunger? someone should tell all the starving people to work harder lol

Wei you must save those poor Mexicans from us.
You could lead them away like the pied piper and save them from evil racist homophobic , capitalist pig America.
Do it now for the children!:(

Rockntractor

02-10-2011, 12:49 PM

Wei, fate has put you on this planet for this very moment, you will be the Moses for the poor and down trodden. You will part the Red River and lead them to the promised land flowing with tequila and marijuana, the land of spring breaks, topless college girls and Taco Grande, go my friend go and follow your destiny!:cool:

Novaheart

02-10-2011, 12:59 PM

"send them back" is not a plan. how many times do I have to say this, it isn't even complicated it doesn't even require reading a book.

you can't just push a button and all illegal immigrants dissapear. you can't just make a law and they all leave. it would take a HUGE and very expensive and very difficult plan to organize and execute a "round them up and ship them out" policy, and it would most likely be extremely harassing because you cannot tell who is illegal and who is not without stopping themn and checking for their papers.

illegals don't walk around with blinking lights above their heads, there is no way to simply "send them back" without violating the rights of American Hispanics.

Wrong.

Native born Americans cannot be deported. Therefore, no immigration enforcement is going to violate the rights of American Hispanics. My niece is Latino, she is a legal native born American. Asking her for a birth certificate to register for school is not a violation of her rights, even if they don't ask the black girl behind her or the redhead in front of her. But if it makes you feel better, then we can require birth certificates for everyone to work, go to school, or get a bank account.

Apache

02-10-2011, 01:02 PM

"send them back" is not a plan. how many times do I have to say this, it isn't even complicated it doesn't even require reading a book.

you can't just push a button and all illegal immigrants dissapear. you can't just make a law and they all leave. it would take a HUGE and very expensive and very difficult plan to organize and execute a "round them up and ship them out" policy, and it would most likely be extremely harassing because you cannot tell who is illegal and who is not without stopping themn and checking for their papers.

illegals don't walk around with blinking lights above their heads, there is no way to simply "send them back" without violating the rights of American Hispanics.

You are so full of shit it is unreal. "send them back" IS A PLAN and very manageable. Your problem is that you know it would work. Dirty little secret...everybody knows who the illegals are...they just turn a blind eye to them.

Novaheart

02-10-2011, 01:03 PM

What's wrong with that idea?

If they become citizens, they fall under the umbrella of minimum wage laws as well as other labor regulations, and lose their appeal of being really cheap labor. .

They don't belong here.
We don't need them here.
We don't want them here.
The US has enough people.
The US doesn't need more people.
The US doesn't need 12 million immigrants consuming water and power and generating sewage and garbage, generating 50 million descendants in short order.

It's just a couple of rats in the barn, how much can two rats eat?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/2008/09/01/306483_0.jpg

txradioguy

02-10-2011, 01:26 PM

The cause of the situation you refer to is foreign nationals disregarding our laws and invading our country, tell them to leave at gunpoint. What other rational thing is there to do with an invader?

And lets not forget their elected enablers either. Who look at and them as millions of potential new votes. The people that turn a blind eye to the very laws they swore to uphold.

txradioguy

02-10-2011, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei
"send them back" is not a plan. how many times do I have to say this, it isn't even complicated it doesn't even require reading a book.

Why isn't it a plan? If it's not a plan...then why the hell do we have a Border patrol or ICE? That's their damn JOB!

What seems complicated to you is simply enforcing the rules already on the books.

The easy way to you is to just let them stay here and make them citizens. That that is just a big middle finger to the people that come here legally and go through the steps required by law to become a citizen.

How is that fair or right?

Odysseus

02-10-2011, 01:30 PM

I see that you are still evading my arguments. What's the matter? Too tough for you to refute?

Oh, well. At least I can address your latest idiocy:

"send them back" is not a plan. how many times do I have to say this, it isn't even complicated it doesn't even require reading a book.

Perhaps you should consider reading one, then, as history is full of examples of expulsions of groups of people from one place or another.

"you can't just push a button and all illegal immigrants dissapear. you can't just make a law and they all leave. it would take a HUGE and very expensive and very difficult plan to organize and execute a "round them up and ship them out" policy, and it would most likely be extremely harassing because you cannot tell who is illegal and who is not without stopping themn and checking for their papers.

illegals don't walk around with blinking lights above their heads, there is no way to simply "send them back" without violating the rights of American Hispanics.
Sure there is. Law enforcement officers encounter illegals all the time in the performance of their duties, but are forbidden to act on the evidence. An illegal who is stopped for a traffic violation and cannot produce a driver's license or proof of insurance, which is a legal requirement (and thus violates no one's rights to demand), can easily be detained and deported, especially since driving without a license or insurance constitutes a clear and present danger to public safety. A felon who is determined to be an illegal can also be deported, especially since he should already be in custody. Again, this has no impact on law-abiding Latinos (who loathe the term "Hispanic" BTW), who would welcome the removal of thugs from their neighborhoods , and probably don't appreciate being lumped in with them by liberals.

Also, not all illegals are Latinos. Is it your opinion that illegal immigrants from Europe, Asia and Africa are not a problem? That we should not be vigilant in deporting Russian mobsters, Islamist terrorists, felons or other undesirables from these regions? What a racist assumption on your part.

txradioguy

02-10-2011, 01:32 PM

great plan

Let me expand on my plan to win the war in Afghanistan: shoot the bad guys and win

The cure for world hunger? someone should tell all the starving people to work harder lol

Now you're just being an idiot.

Chuck58

02-10-2011, 02:22 PM

We live in a village of about 100 people. There are 4 "Anglos" here -me, my wife and another couple. All the rest are Hispanic ancestry. They're American citizens whose families have been here since before anyone ever thought to build the Mayflower.

My wife and I know virtually all of them. Not a single one favors amnesty for the invaders, and not one seems the least concerned about their rights being violated by being asked or questioned about their citizenship. Maybe it's the rural area here, but when this stuff comes up - and it does often since we're close to the border - they don't refer to themselves as Latino, or Hispanic, or hyphenated Americans. Mostly, I hear, "I'm an American. My ancestors were Mexican."

Nearly all the men are veterans and proud of it. They don't like illegals, won't hire them on their farms or ranches and, as a result, those we see are just passing through, stopping only to burglarize a home or mug a little old lady, if they get the chance.

Wei Wu Wei

02-10-2011, 02:57 PM

I see that you are still evading my arguments. What's the matter? Too tough for you to refute?

Oh, well. At least I can address your latest idiocy:

Perhaps you should consider reading one, then, as history is full of examples of expulsions of groups of people from one place or another.

I meant realistic without major civil rights violations.

Sure there is. Law enforcement officers encounter illegals all the time in the performance of their duties, but are forbidden to act on the evidence. An illegal who is stopped for a traffic violation and cannot produce a driver's license or proof of insurance, which is a legal requirement (and thus violates no one's rights to demand), can easily be detained and deported, especially since driving without a license or insurance constitutes a clear and present danger to public safety.

You start your scenario with "an illegal who is stopped...", and by doing so show as a starting point how we already know this person is an illegal immigrant. In reality, you don't know if someone you pulled over is an illegal immigrant, and I don't know all the lands in the US but usually in Texas a person driving without their license on them gets a ticket and a court date to show their license. Do you think it's a smart idea to send anyone found without their ID on them to jail? Do you think it's a smart idea to send any brown person found without their ID to jail?

A felon who is determined to be an illegal can also be deported, especially since he should already be in custody. Again, this has no impact on law-abiding Latinos (who loathe the term "Hispanic" BTW), who would welcome the removal of thugs from their neighborhoods , and probably don't appreciate being lumped in with them by liberals.

This has a substantial impact on anyone with family or community members who are deported. It does make sense though to keep dangerous criminals out.

Also, not all illegals are Latinos. Is it your opinion that illegal immigrants from Europe, Asia and Africa are not a problem? That we should not be vigilant in deporting Russian mobsters, Islamist terrorists, felons or other undesirables from these regions? What a racist assumption on your part.

Don't feign innocent ignorance you know as well as I do that the issue of illegal immigration in the United States is focused mainly on immigrants from central and south america.

Wei Wu Wei

02-10-2011, 03:02 PM

A sizeable chunk (nearly half) of these people we are talking about did not sneak across the border, but came here legally and simply overstayed their time.

This "put guns on the border" nonsense is based on stupid media coverage that always shows people running across the border whenever the topic of illegal immigration comes up.

Chuck58

02-10-2011, 03:07 PM

I meant realistic without major civil rights violations.

You start your scenario with "an illegal who is stopped...", and by doing so show as a starting point how we already know this person is an illegal immigrant. In reality, you don't know if someone you pulled over is an illegal immigrant, and I don't know all the lands in the US but usually in Texas a person driving without their license on them gets a ticket and a court date to show their license. Do you think it's a smart idea to send anyone found without their ID on them to jail? Do you think it's a smart idea to send any brown person found without their ID to jail?

This has a substantial impact on anyone with family or community members who are deported. It does make sense though to keep dangerous criminals out.

Don't feign innocent ignorance you know as well as I do that the issue of illegal immigration in the United States is focused mainly on immigrants from central and south america.

The purpose of controlling immigration is to protect this country. People admitted legally have health checks as well as criminal background checks.

I don't think the porous nature of our southern border is known to terrorist/terrorist organizations. I don't think it's stretching to say that we've probably got terror cells in the US right now. No doubt many wandered across the border during an evening stroll, and were shocked to find themselves accidentally in America. They stayed for fear of being captured while returning to Mexico.

We've been damned lucky in the past decade that we haven't been hit again. It's going to happen, and maybe what it will take is to get hit hard once more, and learn that the perpetrator violated our immigration laws - assuming that knowledge even gets out.

Odysseus

02-10-2011, 03:20 PM

Dismantling labor laws in order to get rid of immigrants has to be the worst idea. If the minimum wage drops to $1.75 an hour we are in DEEP trouble as a country.
You're partly correct, but not for the reason that you think. If the minimum wage dropped to $1.75, it would mean that the labor surplus was so extreme and productivity so low, that unskilled labor would be worth 1/4 of what it is now. That won't happen. First, if the minimum wage were abolished, very few businesses would suddenly reduce the wages of their employees, for the simple reason that they would lose them. They might drop the entry-level wage to something like $6 an hour in some fields, but if they couldn't attract workers at that rate, they'd have to raise it. You are also assuming that the skills acquired by entry-level workers in their first jobs have no value in the marketplace, or that unskilled labor is worth the minimum wage in every job, but those skills mean that within a very short period of time, even entry level workers move into higher pay.

You will then have people working for $4 an hour and being expected to like it because it's twice the minimum wage.

You assume that labor is exempt from the laws of supply and demand. If you want to sell more of a commodity, you lower the price. If we have 10% unemployment, and you want to sell labor to employers, you lower the price of labor. Is an unemployed person better off working at $6 an hour or getting nothing? Do two students who are hired for that wage benefit more than if one is hired for $8?

Why don't we just go back to only letting white property owners vote for the love of god

Well, for one thing, it would disenfranchise minority property owners, who have just as much of a stake in a functioning economy as anyone else, and far more of one than you.

Even if they did what you want, and all of the parents leave (assuming you can identify them and force them to leave, which is of course a huge leap) then you just end up with children returning to the US in 18 years, as US citizens, but without American education, without job training, probably without being able to speak english.

You are seriously suggesting we get countless children, and deport them for 18 years then let them come back? You don't see how that would be a problem?
Nope. We're not deporting the kids. We're deporting the parents. What makes you think that parents will come here to have children if they can't stay in the US with them? Before the law was amended to allow this practice, anchor babies were unheard of. They are an unintended consequence of an ill-conceived change to a law that had worked well up until it was changed during the Johnson administration. And those kids who do come back will have to do so with the knowledge that they will, as citizens, be subject to the laws of the United States. They won't expect to be able to walk into welfare an other benefits, and are more likely to prepare themselves to function in our economy and society, and those who decide not to will serve as a cautionary tale to those who might want to follow them.

If their children are US citizens then those children are entitled to all of the programs that American citizens are.
Then they can stay as wards of the state. They can get a free education in foster care. Their parents go back. And Social Security isn't simply a benefit. You have to pay into it. We should not be giving it to anyone who didn't.

Also, it's been settled already that parents cannot revoke the US citizenship of their children, their children have to demonstrate a proper understanding of all of the implications and rules about citizenship so you cannot get out of having these kids come back looking for work when they are older.

Then they'd better learn English, hadn't they? Otherwise, it will suck to be them.

I'm not down with state-sanctioned killing being thrown around so casually but I agree that criminal felons should be punished harshly and deported.
Sure you are. Communists love state-sanctioned killing. Something about omelets and eggs, as I recall...

Much of this seems fair.

Since you like the ideas, I'll have to reconsider them. I may be right, in spite of your agreeing with me, but only time will tell.

I think that focusing on integrating the productive immigrants into our society will actually do us a lot of good, as opposed to a mass roundup which won't solve the problem.

We haven't established that mass deportations won't solve the problem. If we are to have legal immigration, we have no choice but to crack down on illegal immigration. Illegals make a mockery of the system, especially the integration and assimilation of legal immigrants, who will rightfully question why they should bother obeying the law when it is openly flouted by so many.

Apache

02-10-2011, 03:28 PM

A sizeable chunk (nearly half) of these people we are talking about did not sneak across the border, but came here legally and simply overstayed their time.

This "put guns on the border" nonsense is based on stupid media coverage that always shows people running across the border whenever the topic of illegal immigration comes up.

BULLSHIT

FBIGuy

02-10-2011, 04:52 PM

Give out free beer and ammo just this side of the border and I think that problem will resolve itself.

Odysseus

02-10-2011, 04:56 PM

Give out free beer and ammo just this side of the border and I think that problem will resolve itself.

I'd be willing to take the illegals if we could have an exchange. For every impoverished, illiterate example of the "wretched refuse of [their] teaming shores" that crosses the border, a liberal academic, actor, politician or some other form of parasite must go the other way.

AmPat

02-10-2011, 05:06 PM

"send them back" is not a plan. how many times do I have to say this, it isn't even complicated it doesn't even require reading a book.

you can't just push a button and all illegal immigrants dissapear. you can't just make a law and they all leave. it would take a HUGE and very expensive and very difficult plan to organize and execute a "round them up and ship them out" policy, and it would most likely be extremely harassing because you cannot tell who is illegal and who is not without stopping themn and checking for their papers.

illegals don't walk around with blinking lights above their heads, there is no way to simply "send them back" without violating the rights of American Hispanics.

No, it's a goal. It is a realistic goal. Why is it so hard for you retarded liberals to understand that if it was possible for them to get here ILLEGALLY, it is LOGICALLY possible to export them LEGALLY?

We secured the border of Korea for 56 years, we can secure our own.

Lager

02-10-2011, 08:15 PM

This is a Spanish speaking country you fool.

You must have lost a little temper there, and typed that before you thought about what you were saying. You obviously don't mean that and realized how foolish it seems, once you calmed down.

Paint over them every two weeks? :rolleyes:

That money going down the drain could be better spent improving the socioeconomic conditions of those who live in these neighborhoods.

I see this weak and generalized argument all the time from the left, and it's so poorly thought out, that it's infuriating. So let's see.... providing government support through welfare benefits and other subsidies to lower incomes should improve their socioeconomic condition. Right or wrong? Therefore, neighborhoods with a large component of welfare recepients should have less crime and vandalism, yes?
But they don't.

Okay, we probably agree that poverty begets more crime. Poorer members of society commit crimes in higher numbers. Pretty obvious.
And, poorer members of society have lower education levels. So if we can affect those two factors, we get closer to a solution. Yet you can't improve either of those areas from the top down, and that's where the left fails. Giving someone money seldom lifts them out of poverty, especially if that person lacks an education. An you obviously can't force an education on someone, no matter how easily accessible you make it.

So it should be apparent that the path with the most likely outcome of success is to encourage change from within a group or population, to value and actively pursue an education and upward mobility. If it is not already apart of a particular culture, then all the government benefits are futile. That is why different cultural groups of immigrants have different levels of success.

It's laudable that you are filled with compassion for all those hungry in the world who push into this country in such numbers simply to feed themselves and their families. And it would be nice if they could all be accommodated, and thereby ease your fretting or guilt.
But it is simply not possible to accept the actual number of people who would like to emigrate here, all at one time, and all in the same few areas of the country. And it is perfectly feasible to believe that unchecked illegal immigration can cause harm to a society, such as degrading existing services, over whelming government agencies and law enforcement, driving down local wages, lowering property values, and causing an increased tax burden on legal citizens. Surely you know this.

NJCardFan

02-10-2011, 09:45 PM

This "put guns on the border" nonsense is based on stupid media coverage that always shows people running across the border whenever the topic of illegal immigration comes up.

Tell that to the family of Robert Krenz.

txradioguy

02-11-2011, 01:52 AM

A sizeable chunk (nearly half) of these people we are talking about did not sneak across the border, but came here legally and simply overstayed their time.

Which means they STILL are breaking the law by remaining here. If they want to stay they need to go home and start the process over.

Your shades of gray arguement doesn't work here. Violating the law is still violating the law.

This "put guns on the border" nonsense is based on stupid media coverage that always shows people running across the border whenever the topic of illegal immigration comes up.