Did we exist before becoming human?

What programs the interface so that we can have and experience through it? Dreams as I have said are a type of non-verbal thought process which acts
as the program language of this interface. Very self-evident again when in a lucid dream, or even a non-lucid dream that thought and dreams are the
same system. In a lucid dream, you simply change the thought through intent and the whole dream will change to reflect those thoughts. We can see in
action, in a very self-evident way the role that thought plays in creating vivid virtual reality simulations from this view point.

Now is physical reality also a type of dream? Could thought also be playing a role in the information that we observe and render into our experience
of reality? Some of the posters have already stated that they have had precognitive dreams. If you are lucky enough to have had them, then you are
starting to see in your own experiences with reality a relationship between the dreamworld and the physical world.

Yet in the thought paradox what came first the chicken or the egg, for those of us who have had enough precognitive dreams we can ask... what came
first, the dream or the physical reality? In precognition terms, the dream came first. It precedes the physical event chronologically. So it is in
this particular experience those who have it have the opportunity to see the relationship between thought forming dreams that later become physical
events.

Precognition is also nice, in that it can show you that you "already" exist in a future event before that event happens. In a way, it's showing
you that you are more than the physical event, more fundamental to that event. If you can already exist in a future via this type of dream where
there is no physicality then would it really be that surprising to find out that you'll also exist in another future event after death? We are more
than a physical being and things like precognition and out-of-body experiences, even lucid dreams help show how we can exist in non-physical realities
and are some how beyond the limits of our physical constraints represented by the body.

So with all that, the idea of us emerging from stars is a nice metaphor but what I am eluding to is that physical reality is a topological system that
sits on top of a much larger, more fundamental non-physical reality. This physical world is a sub-system operating as a virtual reality within this
larger system. This is the literal dream world that we are living in.

Reality is information, what makes it real is that we process that information and render it into a view. Change the information, and reality changes
which we can see within our waking and sleeping altered states when the datastream shifts to new experiences. Death is really the abandonment of one
datastream only to be plugged into the one that simulates the afterlife. What is more real, and more fundamental than even the physical world is the
awareness that inhabits all of it. And that is us

I've pondered this many times. Part of me think that Earth is a place of unknown forces happening. I think it's quite possible that there is some
sort of phenomena happening where energy keeps firing. What I mean by that is, every time a life is born, that energy enters that life form. When that
life form dies, the energy goes back to the pool and waits to be fired off again. It's like a giant complex engine. What man thinks of heaven is the
pool where energy, or souls, reside. I think all souls live every possible scenario. Such as, we all have to be everything at least once. Maybe once
we were a grass hopper. Next time, maybe we were a fish. Then a bird. Then an elephant. Then a human. Then an ant.-----It's a constant order. It's a
force of the universe that we cannot understand yet. Or prove.

What is interesting in what you say is that I do have experiences that are not human and rather succumb to the animal and insect realms. What is also
interesting to note is that in an out-of-body experience, and even in a dream you can become other creatures found here on earth and have a very vivid
simulation of what it might be like to be an ant, or a cat. Robert A. Monroe talks about this heavily in his last book, Ultimate Journeys where he
was able to project his awareness into something in what he felt was the physical world, and have an experience.

Another practitioner named Graham Nichols reports that he had a similar experience where he became a mouse and lived out it's life-cycle in a single
out-of-body experience.

From my own personal experiences, what I have observed is that when my body is asleep, and if I am self-aware and conscious where what I am now
experiencing is quite possibly physical reality in an out-of-body state, I've noticed that when passing through matter I can feel myself take on
properties of that matter ie... the sensation of being water, or being glass etc. It seems that matter itself provides feedback to our awareness when
we interface with it. And yes, I have had the animal/insect type of experiences albeit not as many as I would like but again the potential has
clearly been demonstrated in a very real and interesting way.

However if you read my last post before yours, my view of all of this resides in the fact that reality is information and we can access that
information and have an experience with it. For me at least, it doesn't matter if I'm really experiencing a physical cat walking miles away when in
that state, what matters is that I am having an experience that simulates what it may be like to be a cat. I would have no way of proving or
validating a link between the physical and that experience but the experience itself merits it's own kind of inspired fact that we possess an ability
to transform into other patterns (lifeforms) in a dream simulation which for me is good enough. It's pretty amazing and cool to experience such
things. Just adds new experiences to the ever expanding library of them.

originally posted by: MamaJ
Yes! I do think WE were pre-human before and will be again.

I also believe in a karmic debt. Karma is real .. we see it.. we experience it.. and it has to be paid n full.

Never have I had an out of body experience, from what I can remember.

I do however have memories of being excited to come into this life and believe I CHOSE to.

I feel as though we are trying to obtain our crown, from the heel.

I could be wrong as I don't entirely subscribe to the idea of karmic debt although I do think there may be some truth to it. At the surface of what
I have observed it appears that Earth really represents a large database of experiences and it's more likely that we are coming here to have specific
experiences and that they are meant to provide new knowledge and learning opportunities.

The investment in being here itself represents a tremendous amount of time. To live a life of 80 years to die then come back and live another
lifetime then stacking that on the idea that we could have thousands, if not millions of lives here. That's some dedication.

I like to think we are here of our free will with the interest to have the specific qualities of experiences that we are having and that we can move
on to other systems for new experiences and who knows even return back here for some more. I've thought a lot about what it will be like when I
leave this life and return back to that state given this new perspective I've come to have. Will I come back? Will I move on? Will some being
force me back in again? Am I more prepared now?

I really don't know until I cross that bridge. I hope that what ever comes next I have a say in it. There is just so much more there though I am
very curious as to what other types of systems like Earth exist for us to experience, or if we can even create some of our own. I still have a lot of
unknowns to sort out

originally posted by: ArnoldNonymous
If you accept the Bible as a reliable source I would say yes we did exist prior to receiving our mortal bodies:

KJV Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto
the nations.
This is God speaking to the Prophet Jeremiah. Before he was a fetus he was known by the Lord. Would that not also be the case for every other
individual?

For me personally, I don't really subscribe to the bible as a reliable source. If I was to cherry pick religions, I do like some of what I read in
Gnosticism and some of what I read in Buddhism. There are things in the Bible that do ring with some measure of truth, but then a lot of things that
don't.

What I strive to achieve is answering my own questions by digging at the truth rather then having it simply passed my way by someone else's
belief-system. I kind of like the lonely hard road to truth, figuring it out for yourself kind of attitude and not relying on the beliefs of others
to get in the way. I'm of the belief that the truth is always right in front of us but it's up to use to realize it. We have homework and must be
students of not just reality, but of ourselves.

So I adopt a type of skepticism where I have to see it to believe it, or at least experience it. I've found that truth through first-person
experience is the better way to come about it. At least, that is what works for me.

What is your physical self doing when your non-physical self is having non-physical experiences?

How is the non-physical you able to experience? Do you have any idea how you still see, hear, feel and think but without eyes, ears, skin and
brains?

My physical self is usually sleeping at that point. As for the sensory perceptions within non-physical reality answering how a non-physical entity
without a brain and physical organs can have perception is something that I have actually looked into. What I have come to understand stems from how
we virtualize ourselves into a non-physical state. We simulate sensory perception in the same manner that we simulate a dream. It all comes back to
a type of virtualism in that what we observe in the non-physical state is thought rendering back at us. A few posts back I talk about how we simulate
sensory perception and dreams. The answer to the question lies within those mechanics.

originally posted by: booyakasha
Very nicely written OP. The way you describe the fractal existence of post-life was perfect. I know exactly what you are talking about, I've been
there in an OBE and also with the help of a substance I won't mention. Being in the fractal existence was more of a mind blow for me than being
bored with existence. However i can see how it could get boring once you figured out everything about that existence. Being in that type of
existence for me was more like the biggest deja vu experience ever, while at the same time remembering my true form existence 50,000 years ago. The
time before time. The most inhuman you could possibly feel.

Is this what your saying is after death if we chose? Also I was wondering if you could explain how you followed your memory stream while OBE to the
pre human existence? I also can induce OBE's so I would love to mess around with that. I feel like we have a lot of the same experiences. I can't
recall any past lives but did have lucid dreams which led to having OBE's, was a little scary psychic as a kid, and been to the pre human existence.
I also believe we are living in a dream. A much denser dream where thought does create reality just much slower than a dream.

Thanks for this post, good to know I'm not the only crazy one out there

Without the use of drugs, the art of lucid dreaming will often bring our awareness through a hypnagogic fractal state where vivid animated geometric
patterns and clouds can appear. This geometrical system is something I've observed far too many times with lucid dreaming and beyond. In one
respect, I recognize it even today as if it was a primordial part of who and what I am.

In other ways, I have observed this hypnaggic fractal move from a two-dimensional lattice into an organic, fluid 3D mesh just before the dreamscape
renders over it. And again, many many times. So the neural geometry observed here is something very intriguing as it suggest quite possibly that we
are literally using something similar to modern day 3D computer graphics in that the mind generates this mesh, and renders a bitmap overlay on it that
then becomes the vivid dream state.

In dreams themselves, I have stripped the bitmap layer away so to speak to yet again observe this geometrical fluid mesh. I am aware that drug use
also reveals it as many people have discussed this with me so that comes as no surprise. It's a real part of how our mind can create a very real
appearing simulation of space within the virtual interface we then stand before.

Plus it reminds me of myself before I was human so I give it that ancient primordial label.

What I believe is happening is that this mesh represents us as information and we are evolving that mesh into bigger and better reality expeirences as
it provides the feedback interface by which all reality experiences we have are rendered as. So our death and progression may very well be an
evolutionary process as to how we become more adept at creating new patterns with this system. I think what I am now, or at least see of it is a much
more vivid resolution than before. Perhaps I was a low-resolution being post-human and part of the benifit of going through this crazy world is we
emerge in a type of higher resolution, with much more definition of ourself than before.

Following memory is not as hard as it sounds, take any point in your past and just try to recall that. Well, I found when in the out-of-body state or
being conscious when the body was asleep I could access memory more efficiently and by following the flow of memories that I had, I just started to
move through a stream of information that seemed threaded through many lifetimes and I could remember and connect that they really were some part of
myself in this big picture. At some point I really was those people to whome I was now remembering. And in some of the memories I really connected
strongly with the friends and family I remembered and had forgotten, the love was still very real and still there.

As for the rest of what you are describing, we are drinking the same koolaid there

May I recommend you read (if you haven 't already) Johnathan Black's excellent book The Secret History of the World. It covers the mineral body,
plant body etc etc through to the human and, if I remenber correctly the auric bodies.

It makes you think and I would say that the 'tail' and fig leaves are demonstrated in our local museum just as he tells you. A lot more of what one
sees that were one to think about it is explained.

Very interesting thread.

Thanks for the recommendation, I haven't read his book. If I come across it I will take a look.

Very interesting that you posted that UV perspective, I have a rough-draft to a book I am writing (I write free e-books on a few rare occasions) and
the chapter takes a stab at perception and reality as information.

originally posted by: CynConcepts
After reading about your insights into this matter, I could not help but think of Donald Neale Walsh's Conversations with God series. Have you ever
read any of them? He seemed to have reached many similiar conclusions. He did expand a little further on how we are all connected past, present, and
future reincarnations with everything and everyone. Basically, at the singularity of beginning...we all are God experiencing his own stimulating
virtual creations. It took me sometime to understand his concept that 'I' am 'you', essentially just a different aspect or perspective of the
original one or I Am. If you have never read any of his stuff, do a google search. I found it interesting and enlightening, though naturally with all
truths coming from another's individual perspective...I still have yet to fully form my own personal perspective.

No I haven't read his books. But it sounds very much like what I am discussing. I'll have to check it out.

According to the Seth/Jane Roberts books, reincarnation seems to be true but it's not really true because there's no time or space. Everything has
always existed, and so everything is simultaneous, from a certain point of view. If you're trapped in space-time then reincarnation will seem to be
evident and inevitable. The conclusion is that what happens to you is not due to any previous actions, since there is no past or future, but to the
needs you have, according to your character. One's destiny has a psychological explanation, rather than a karmic one.

What a great thread! It is heart warming to read this evidence that what I have been noticing for a few years now, that people are indeed waking up. I
think this particular "time" on Earth is a hot ticket of the transformation of our species. I feel very lucky to be here to experience it. Just a
few years ago, this conversation could not have even happened, I think. Have you noticed the huge lack of negativity...so different than most
conversations on ATS.

Anyway....Good morning! I just made a fresh pot of coffee. Can I get you some?

... Without existence there is only a conglomerate consciousness which is all frequencies combined, this is often referred to as God.

Thanks Jaden, Great post, I had to sleep last night so couldn't address it likely will be catching up over the weekend as my work load is also very
heavy.

Consciousness is something again I have spent a lot of time thinking about largely because there is so many people saying everything is consciousness
and reality emerges from consciousness. But... I do have a difference of opinion although likely we are likely simply swapping out one term for
another here.

My view on consciousness describes it more from the medical perspective where a person in an ER is rated on a system as to how conscious they are
ie... awake. It stems from a normal state of consciousness to clouding, confusion, lethargy down to coma (no consciousness).

Consciousness and unconsciousness are examples of how our awareness of our self can be altered and even shut down as "consciousness" is a
measurement of self-awareness. What is more fundamental is the self that becomes aware and conscious in this analogy. We can still exist with, or
without consciousness but we cannot exist without the self. So the self sits at the root of this system, and uses consciousness as part of the
feedback mechanism that I've been discussing.

When we are self-aware and awake (even in sleep during a lucid dream or out-of-body experience) the field of consciousness provides feedback to the
self within the rendered output. It is part of this virtual screen of awareness where our perception of reality renders upon. And it can change and
alter based on the context of information that is now rendering there.

The self however sits at the seat of this experience and is far more real and absolute then the field of consciousness it is using as the feedback
interface to this information it is processing. So from this analogy my argument is yes consciousness is a very important fundamental part of the
mystery of life, but more absolute is the self that has consciousness. And it is through consciousness that the self realizes it exists and can
reflect back the valuable self-awareness. Thus consciousness is a cognitive tool that the self uses as part of its recursive feedback interface.
It's mixed in with the computer screen rendering data in my opinion and can vary greatly in many altered states from fully self-aware to complete
unconsciousness.

In the complete unconsciousness, the self still exists even if at that point it doesn't have any feedback of itself through this consciousness field
as it's turned off for the moment.

That is why I put more emphasis on the self in terms of metaphysical important as the root of the system, and consciousness as a sub-set of the self
as the second important part of the package. Everything reduces back to the substance of the self. What is the self? How does it exist spread
through many fields of time/space and information?

The other analogy when dealing with the partitioning of the self into many smaller bits is akin to cells in a body where the cell itself is it's own
entity but contributes to the larger whole and is not separate from it rather just a scaled down version of the larger system that it is
interconnected with. We are not really every outside of this larger conglomerate or separate from it, only ever compartmentalized within it like a
cell in a body.

We exist in the illusion of separation from the larger self that we inhabit but are never truly separate from it, just fractionated into a smaller
node of awareness within the larger field of super-reality that it all embodies. I do believe however that we do become more aware of this
interconnected relationship and can take on a sense of being one or whole in various reminders along the way.

With life in even just the visible universe being a statistical certainty do we think that reincarnation is limited to humanity only? Similarly,
keeping to our own planet is reincarnation limited to humanity only? If we choose or are chosen to experience life as matter one would imagine that
the actual experience and definition of consciousness, unconsciousness and awareness would be wildly different for a Human, an Ant and a walking
Avocado from another galaxy. My right brain tells me we are merely a bag of chemicals, my totality however refuses to entertain that could ever be
true.
This is a great subject, someone should tell the rest of the world to join in. Peace to you all.

The absolute, will never exist never has never will, but is absolute, the energetically motivated envelopes of me in you us I are the yearning to
only be loved within the absolute relativity the primordial mass the absolute through definition and yearning dissolved can be absolute.
Letting go of the Drama instinct, of the conspiracy to conflict to drama to conflict to conspiracy to drama and so on has to date been the self (ego)
fulfilling prophecy adhered to rather than to question and understand and love the self for what it is you me I, no loneliness only the desire in a
desire ridden existence politics money the system all lead to a wealth of only Drama to constantly fan the flames of confusion of self and polarity
with the energetical field, when reality screams for being yearning desire to be, the real yearning by man and source God call IT WHAT YOU WISH IS
Love of self The absolute………………………..

I would actually rather think and or believe that there is zero debt to be paid when returning to the flesh. When I observe the reality around me I
see the saying "what comes around goes around" to be a true statement. With each choice there is a consequence whether seen as good or bad.

On the lines of good and bad I am not sure whether or not there is such a thing as bad. Bad experiences are needed in the "Earth School" so maybe
there is not a debt to be paid. I have no idea I just don't understand how there wouldn't be. Learning to obtain Nirvana or Christ Consciousness
seems like a real goal we all attempt daily. Well.. maybe some don't. lol

I Concur with this paragraph you stated below..

"I like to think we are here of our free will with the interest to have the specific qualities of experiences that we are having and that we can move
on to other systems for new experiences and who knows even return back here for some more. I've thought a lot about what it will be like when I leave
this life and return back to that state given this new perspective I've come to have. Will I come back? Will I move on? Will some being force me back
in again? Am I more prepared now? "

I truly feel as though we are dwellers in the flesh. Our purpose is to overcome the desires of this world which is temporary and focus on giving of
self instead of being selfish. A part of being self aware is to only think of our self and not others.

All the great teachers and thinkers of our time to the days of antiquity seem to agree.

Reincarnation is actually an ancient belief. Christianity once believed in rebirth as well.

Im not a Christian, however I do believe when INTERPRETED PROPERLY the Bible is a pretty cool and telling book. Its his-story which represents the
entire loaf of bread. The first piece is the heel and the last is the crown. Last trip to Earth is when we have earned our crown according to our free
will of selflessness. Once can trace the lives of Jesus if he seeks to know. Jesus even tells us all about rebirth, however the church will never
admit nor will it admit to where the spin off belief systems originated.

With any myth, I like to find the root.

With my own history, I feel as though my root is far beyond what I can even imagine. I feel as though my spirit has been and always will be
experiencing as I am an energy that only transforms manifestations.

Ok then. We are partitioned nodes of larger and larger and larger. We are so far into the partition process that we see others, rather than one, which
we really are/am.

In all that you have written so far, you touch on volition, free will, from the stand point of the extra-human experience, however I could find no
insight on 'human" free will. How do you understand human free will in regards this whole understanding of extra-humanness. Once we "incarnate"
from the extra-human and become human, in what ever time zone, now or then or later, how does the idea of volition in each individual, me, you,
everyone else apply or not apply to the course of that individuals life. Are these individual lives just an experience with no steering wheel other
than the conditions set up at the entry point or can course adjustments be made along the way while in human form. And if so, how do you see that
these course adjustments along the way might affect the, shall we call it the, exit point?

I did have a lengthy reply to this, for some reason it didn't post. Which is fine. I'll have to recap on what I wrote.

Free-will for us as a Human is limited based on the constraints that our physical body provides. In my first reply I tried to break it down into a
few sets of choices that we make based on the criteria of the circumstances presented us in any present moment that we are engaged in our waking
life.

The first comes from how we react to the drama within certain circumstances such as fight or flight reactions to events for example someone throws a
rock at us and we react to dodge the rock. True free will in my view suggests we would control the entire circumstance and no rock would be thrown
but as this is an interactive shared experience we respond to events according to our reaction to them as a form of instinct.

Then the more common free-will is based on our present choices in any given circumstance such as choosing to turn left or right down a street. As our
reality is fundamentally based on a probability distribution of events. It is kind of like a choose your own adventure book, so taking the left turn
results in a mugging where you are shot, but taking the right turn results in meeting a friendly person who engages in conversation that leads to a
new job and career.

The probability all exists within the information allowing us to pick and chose certain paths within this probability distribution of future events.
So the free-will choice is limited to our options of opportunity. For the most part, we are responding to the drama and circumstances of what reality
is presenting to us in this journey.

The other free-will comes from how we choose to respond and think within these constraints, if we are upset do we choose to be happy. When we sleep
to we chose to participate in our dreams. All the intellectual and emotional choices allow for us to freely examine such ideas but themselves have
their own limited opportunities for the choices we make.

Thus free-will exists but with constraints so it's limited.

I do believe that there is a steering wheel and that we have an optimal life path in our initial decision to come here but in that mix there is all
the lesser degrees of events that can shift us into not so optimal life experiences.

Here is an example that you may like from my life which likely prevented an early exist point linked to precognitive dreaming. A couple of years ago,
I had a very vivid dream where I was driving my car with my daughter in the back seat at night on a snow covered road. The snow was virgin meaning no
other cars had yet driven on it. I turned down a hill, and was unable to stop at the stop sign as under the snow was very smooth ice. The car slid
into on-coming traffic and a white pickup truck hit the driver's side of my car waking me up.

All of the information presented in the dream seemed to perfectly match my current life and had that precognitive potential. I wasn't sure if it was
precognitive but having had a history of these types of dreams and knowing that my car would only have two all season tires and two old winter tires
it seemed plausible given that same circumstance that outcome seemed like a probability I might face in the future.

So, I told my parents about the dream and it changed my decision about my car for the winter so I bought four brand new studded winter tires. When I
went to purchase them, the clerk at the local Walmart told me that it was a bit over-kill for the type of winter we have and said the studs were not
required.

We argued over it until I finally made it clear that not having studs was not an option. Thankfully, that same scenario played out in waking reality
in real-time when I was driving my daughter to daycare early in the morning. It was the first fall of snow and I rationalized that the highway was
not safe as past experiences on the first fall gave me a lot of close calls with other people nearly crashing into me, almost got knocked off the road
by a semi that was fish tailing beside me.

The drive was at early morning so it was still very dark, and I was the first car on the road. By this time, I wasn't really thinking about the
dream. When I got to the same hill and turned down it, the same point in the dream where I became aware happened. And I realized this was the same
circumstance, I tried to stop and even with the studs the car was sliding down the hill similar to the dream. I panicked but thankfully the studs dug
in and I stopped about 1 foot past the stop-sign and a white pickup truck drove right in front of me. Had I slid like I did in the dream, it would
have hit me on the drivers side.

A bit white knuckled and scared, I turned back at my daughter with a great sense of relief. It would be the first time thus far that a precognitive
dream had saved my life, or at best prevented a terrible accident.

This and other less dramatic precognitive dreams have illustrated the probability nature of our reality thus I do not believe it's entirely
deterministic rather probabilistic in how the future unfolds within our life-path.

I do believe had I not changed the circumstances or had the dream, I probably wouldn't be here today to even talk about that experience. It was
quite profound.

That is quite the lengthy post, very in depth. Thank you for sharing, I have come to a similar conclusion and then I read something written by Monroe
a few weeks after my discovery. I was ecstatic that someone else had gone through the same thing I had, it was like we had watched the same life
experience. Finding these things out on your own instead of blindly believing is vindication and energizing at the same time.

I found Monroe's work to be a great relief and inspiration as I managed to come to it through a friend when I was already going through my own
out-of-body experiences that were spontaneous at that time and so much of what he wrote about I had similar experienced. It was great to see another
person just laying it out as they experienced something, and to have a similar set of experiences was fantastic. He was a true pioneer.

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