"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may remember,involve me and I'll understand" Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways." John F. KennedyFranklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

"There are many great ways to learn beekeeping and experience is not the only teacher. There are plenty of people for whom a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but then there are plenty more who share and have great ways of imparting their knowledge - like Michael Bush, for example, whose web site is exemplary and who is always kind in his feedback to people here."

Tillie,

I still agree with you and Iddee. One of the biggest problems in the community is the lack of individuals willing to educate! Me and my father-in-law like to fish at the beach, and we have the same problem. Everything is a big secret, and no one will tell you anything! I have respect for the nice replies and educators. Many people offer to buy bees after a removal job when the beekeeper talks to and educates them during the removal.

So we are suggesting that through the master programs, those who want to get "certified" are the only ones who teach, while the rest never do. Ok.

So the answer of some perceived notion that enough do not "teach" is to have master programs to fill this void.

Around here, almost every county has a club. This is a place where they have spring workshops, beginner courses, and monthly meetings. I have never seen a question go unanswered from a person asking questions at a meeting. What a slap in the face to tens of thousands of beekeepers who attend, assist, and promote beekeeping inside and outside the confines of the local associations.

Sorry, I see way more beekeeper not certified in schools, at the public venues, and assisting new folks. To suggest this does not happen without master bee programs is outright wrong and blowing smoke while selling a program on nothing close to the truth.

""So we are suggesting that through the master programs, those who want to get "certified" are the only ones who teach, while the rest never do. Ok.""

Take the blinders off....No, it doesn't mean that at all. It is just a way to give recognition to those who might want it. It takes nothing from the millions of others, nor does it deny that they exist.

PS. I really will never believe that you actually feel the way you are posting. I just see more trolling for an argument. You are much too smart to not see the program for what it is.

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

I'm not a certified master beekeeper, but I have been told that I am certifiable. On the serious side I do have deficit's due to a brain aneurysm, I would have a very difficult time taking a written test, and would not risk the expense it would cost me to attend a costly class. I think it is great for people who can, man I really like bees though. :-D

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My son, eat thou honey, because it is good; and the honeycomb, sweet to thy taste:Proverbs 24:13

I lean a little toward Mike's point of view on this. Although I do know some great "master" beekeepers, I know several that think since they are certified that they are better beekeepers than others with much more experience and insight. One in particular has been handing out the worst advice I've ever heard (had one poor woman buy 7 different queens to try to fix a drone laying hive...all of which were killed of course).

Scott

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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

So we are suggesting that through the master programs, those who want to get "certified" are the only ones who teach, while the rest never do. Ok.

I don't get it Bjornbee - I never said that - as a matter of fact I started this post to support going through certification for the learning process.

I've taken so many beekeeping classes and workshops from people who have knowledge about beekeeping - some of them have gone through certification but many haven't.

Keith Delaplane isn't certified as a master beekeeper but he's a PhD in entomology and is a fantastic fount of knowledge and a good teacher

I don't know if Michael Bush has gone through a certification but I will sit at his feet or follow him around a beeyard, learning every second of it if I should get the opportunity

Jerry Wallace, one of the best beekeepers I know in Atlanta and a good teacher never took any kind of certification

Don Kuchenmeister who is an amazing beemaster isn't a man of education or bee certification but shares his knowledge generously and well with everyone who stops at his place in Lula..I think he is a natural teacher and is kind in the process

This thread is about learning beekeeping - not about teaching. The encouragement I was trying to give and the point I have been trying to make is that working through levels of certification is a great way to learn about beekeeping and keeps people in an open-to-learning mode, not to mention all of the helpful public service that is involved.

Linda T frustrated by the earlier thread that I never posted on and discouraged now by the tone of this one

« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 09:20:26 PM by tillie »

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http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"You never can tell with bees" - Winnie the Pooh

I have nothing against certifications--- to each his own! I think what does turn off the folks that don't particular care for the certifications is the fact of hearing folks say I am John Doe and I am a Master-beekeeper.

And then you should be proud of your accomplishments just don't lean on the title too hard :-D

On a side note, after reading this thread, I have been thinking about starting a thread on one of my pet peeves ---- Honey SHOWS!!! But it may get too volatile :-D and then again maybe not :-\

When I started SCUBA diving about 30 years ago, I dove every chance I had.I got my basic certification and had a lot of fun.There were very few crappy dives.I dove weekly in fast water, murky water, wrecks, deep, night, anything, and after a couple of years, I met a fellow named Matt who became a good friend and dive buddy.He was a Certified Master Diver, and one day I asked him about me doing the master diver thing.He told me that I already had done everything they would teach me.He said that the certification was a good framework to acquire the knowledge.I think it's the same with the Master Beekeeper.You get exposed to a lot that might take a long time to learn otherwise.

PS. I really will never believe that you actually feel the way you are posting. I just see more trolling for an argument. You are much too smart to not see the program for what it is.

I meant ever word.

I am not one to persue labling and restrictive, divisive and limiting, or a caste system of alienation of individuals.

Take the EAS master program. What are the true benefits?I see it as something that gives EAS a marketing tool. Something to boost attendance. And something to give them control of some slice of the industry. They even became upset in years past when other associations and state level groups started using the term "Master Beekeeper".

I don't give preference in friends, or how I value someone based on any title. I don't think those with MD, Colonel, or master beekeeper, are any better individuals than anyone else without those titles. I base my respect and interst in the person standing in front of me on things like character, morals, principles, etc. As I said, I don't see the industry benefit to the public by master this or that, when most of the work is from those not master beekeepers.

Maybe it's just me. I have enough regulation, enough certification, and enough box defining measures in my life. Certification often is just the means to other restrictive measures and requirements down the road. I see now where the industry is pushing for "pure honey certification" and having a label stamp for those who want to take part in the program. Making those who do not want to go through the certification with the idea to the public that their product is not pure.

As with any industry, it always slides towards more restrictions, certification, and control. In the overall scheme of things, master programs conditions many that grouping, separating, and labling folks, is good for all involved. And I don't see it that way. Yes, I see certification being used for many industries and a real benefit. But the bee industry hardly is in the same category as with some industries where health and safety are issues being addressed with certifications. And I could only imagine a day when being a beekeeper is only allowed once a person is first "certified" and issued a permit. And since a "certification program: (ie. master programs) are already are in place, who do you suppose will be the first to support and approve such certification? Of course, those on control and your state universities. Not many see it coming down the road. But after the fact, usually many ask "How did we get to this point?....which is usually too late for any change.

I know it's natural for folks to want to be part of something. A gang, MC, etc. It is also natural for folks to want to feel special by labels and plaques on the wall. Many studies have been done on the "clan" mentality of the human spirit.

tillie, one should never be discouraged or criticized for bettering themselves or encouraging others to. Ignore the blowhards and be proud of what you have done. I may be new to beekeeping, but I'm certainly not new at life.

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Every man's life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and how he died that distinguish one man from another. ~Ernest Hemingway

tillie, one should never be discouraged or criticized for bettering themselves or encouraging others to. Ignore the blowhards and be proud of what you have done. I may be new to beekeeping, but I'm certainly not new at life.

That is the attitude that is part of the problem. It's the "I'm better" because I have a title..."master beekeeper".

Of course, calling others who happen to have differing opinions "blowhards" is a bit childish. You must already be a "master beekeeper".... :-D Feel special do you? :roll:

Got to run. Bees are waiting. I'll be back to read the replies later. Can we at least be creative and lets see who comes up with the best name calling post. iddee...you out there? I gave you lots to digest. :-*

>That is the attitude that is part of the problem. It's the "I'm better" because I have a title..."master beekeeper".

~I don't recall tillie ever saying or inferring that she was better than anybody else, all she did was try to learn more about something she enjoys, and encourage others to do the same.

>You must already be a "master beekeeper".... Feel special do you?

~Nope, I'm not a master anything, I'm just trying to learn, that's why I'm here. Fortunately most people here are willing to share their knowledge and experience with others.As for the name calling and future replies...you don't have to worry about me, I've already said my piece.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 08:11:27 AM by Riggs »

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Every man's life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and how he died that distinguish one man from another. ~Ernest Hemingway

I'm here, but I see no reason to continue, unless you decide to take the blinders off and see what is really in the other posts.

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

I'm here, but I see no reason to continue, unless you decide to take the blinders off and see what is really in the other posts.

So one must see things as you do to have a conversation. Hmmmm.

I think you as well as others have jumped to conclusions about my disdain for certification processes, and the minutia surrounding them, and have come to conclusion that I am against higher learning or ones willingness to strive to be the best that one can be.

I think perhaps some (like you.....thinking this was a "lets bash Tillie" thread) took my comments about the master beekeeping program, and let it become personal. Then it's just a natural step to condemn or denigrate comments not in line with yourself in some self rationalization.

Sorry iddee. It's not about Tillie. It's not about one seeking educational opportunities, or striving to be a better beekeeper. It is the process of certification by separating folks into labeled boxes, with a bit of self arrogance of those that run around calling themselves "master" beekeepers.

Keep it in perspective, and maybe you would have something to add to the conversation instead of comments that add little and border on refusing to engage in a conversation for the fact of differing perspectives or wrong assumptions.

I'm actually thinking of starting a "Supreme bee commander" certification program....certificates will be hand written on bar napkins :-D

Scott

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"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."