The champ/role queue finder thing is only going to work in normals or now by the way.

That's fine. When the Ranked queues die off after matchmaking goes in,we won't have to wait too long for them to get it implemented. I think the champ/role finder may be the one thing that can save the good players from Bronze/elohell.

There are no good players in Bronze

If by "good" you mean "pro," then yeah, probably not many good players outside challenger. But there are plenty of people in bronze who probably could survive in silver or even gold, if their placement matches had swing differently.

I'm not quite as optimistic that the new queue will fix that, personally, but it will remove one of my personal major disincentives to playing if I don't have to have the same "who wants to support" fight at the beginning of every game.

There really aren't. Everyone thinks they're better than they are and they ignore the mistakes they make in favor of the mistakes their allies make. Every time they have a good score and don't win they think "my team sucks" instead of "good lord how did I not carry despite being so far ahead". In bronze there are shitty players and players who are in the process of leaving bronze. There are no marginally good players stuck in bronze. There are no gold players stuck in bronze. There are no silver player stuck in bronze. There are only bads.

edit: If you're in bronze (or silver for that matter) and are thinking that you're stuck there because of your teammates that is why you're stuck there because you think it is your teammates instead of your own play.

The champ/role queue finder thing is only going to work in normals or now by the way.

That's fine. When the Ranked queues die off after matchmaking goes in,we won't have to wait too long for them to get it implemented. I think the champ/role finder may be the one thing that can save the good players from Bronze/elohell.

There are no good players in Bronze

If by "good" you mean "pro," then yeah, probably not many good players outside challenger. But there are plenty of people in bronze who probably could survive in silver or even gold, if their placement matches had swing differently.

I'm not quite as optimistic that the new queue will fix that, personally, but it will remove one of my personal major disincentives to playing if I don't have to have the same "who wants to support" fight at the beginning of every game.

This is how the new match maker will function.

Wait 15 minutes for someone to que as supportBe bitched at because your picking fiora/jax/ top when the team needs a tankAkali loses mid, blames you for picking your topLose game

In bronze there are shitty players and players who are in the process of leaving bronze.

Ugh, this again. You're talking about some distant point in the future, after everyone has played a statistically large number of games. I'm talking about right now. People who are "in the process of leaving bronze" are still in bronze today.

But mostly what I'm objecting to is vague, non-quantifiable value terms like "bad" and "shitty players" which are often used more as prosthetic e-penises ("What's a bad player? Well, someone who's one level lower than me, of course! Because I'm sure it's obvious to everyone that I'M not bad, even though there's hundreds of players ranked higher than me, too!") than as useful terms for discussion. "Everyone in bronze has lost more than 60% of their games" or "everyone in bronze is lower than 1200 Elo" are fine, we can discuss why that is or what can change it or whatever, but flat out declaring "everyone in bronze is bad" is just masturbation. It kills discussion. We can have a discussion about matchmaking if you want, but generally insulting people isn't helpful.

In bronze there are shitty players and players who are in the process of leaving bronze.

Ugh, this again. You're talking about some distant point in the future, after everyone has played a statistically large number of games. I'm talking about right now. People who are "in the process of leaving bronze" are still in bronze today.

But mostly what I'm objecting to is vague, non-quantifiable value terms like "bad" and "shitty players" which are often used more as prosthetic e-penises ("What's a bad player? Well, someone who's one level lower than me, of course! Because I'm sure it's obvious to everyone that I'M not bad, even though there's hundreds of players ranked higher than me, too!") than as useful terms for discussion. "Everyone in bronze has lost more than 60% of their games" or "everyone in bronze is lower than 1200 Elo" are fine, we can discuss why that is or what can change it or whatever, but flat out declaring "everyone in bronze is bad" is just masturbation. It kills discussion. We can have a discussion about matchmaking if you want, but generally insulting people isn't helpful.

OK

There are players in bronze who are in the process of leaving. Those people who get unlucky in their placement matches and end up in bronze will be out in under 100 games if not 20-30.

Those players who think they're in bronze because of the play of others suffer any number of maladies in significant amounts

1) They don't ward: or don't ward in the right spots: or expect their support to carry the ward burden for them: or don't buy oracles : or don't buy oracles2) They don't buy pots: or don't buy pots when they go back: or don't use the pots they buy.3) They purchase inefficient items: they build AP before Pen, they build Hurricane on an ADC, they build GP10: they build snowball items ; they build BotRK on everyone4) They don't purchase items to stop what the enemy team is doing5) They Chase 6) They do not focus on objectives; and/or they don't focus on the right objectives; they focus on objectives at the wrong time7) They do not understand what it takes for their team composition to win; They don't understand the types of fights their team composition wins; they don't focus on getting those fights and avoiding the other ones8) They do not pick champions to counteract the enemy teams composition; they don't pick champions to synergize with their allies composition9) They do not have map awareness; they are not ever where they need to be after the laning phase; They do not realize when their allies are not with them10) They farm poorly: Both in lane and outside of lane; They don't understand when they should be farming and when they should not be11) They do not know what they should be doing in a team fight and do not know how this changes even for the same champions depending on the situation; within team fights their positioning is poor12) Their mechanics are poor: The don't understand ability weaving, attack moving, bush mechanics, line of sight mechanics, ability ranges, creep mechanics and damage, lane XP etc etc13) They don't understand wave manipulation and why pushing is advantageous14) Their decision making is poor, not understanding which skirmishes they can win and what they can't where enemies are likely to be.15) They're toxic/defeatist; They blame their teammates for their failings in the first 14 departments

I have watched many games of players who said "I am better than my league" and i have not once seen someone play at a level where they deserved to be higher. Players who are bronze will do at least two of these things consistently poorly. When you do that it more or less disqualifies you from beating people who only make those mistakes inconsistently

Players who are silver start to get to the point where they will only make inconsistent mistakes. But from there to gold and plat its a steady stream of fewer and fewer mistakes.

As far as "elohell" is concerned, the changes to leagues have made this more of a real thing. Before to move up you just had to consistently win in aggregate, now you have to win promotional series, so the number of games you have to win to advance is a much smaller set and more prone to variation.

I lost like 5 promotional series in a row where in each case at least one of the games had something like a guy immediately disconnect and never come back. That sort of bad luck does happen - in the old elo system that wouldn't really matter, as it would average out, but in this system a badly timed unlucky event is much more damaging. In general players still move up, but overcoming poorly timed bad luck can take many more games. In the old system a single loss or two would never be a significant setback.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 10:45:31 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.

I placed Silver I when I dinged 30 a few weeks ago. I have to say that as I get better at this game, bronze players really aren't that good from a mechanical point of view. That's not even saying I'm any good mechanically, but bronze players constantly put themselves in terrible positions when laning.

With trinkets in play for S4, at least everyone will have a ward now. I assume people will eventually remember they have a trinket and will be randomly dropping it in places. Even 2-3 wards in the field will help A LOT. What will happen is that games will even snowball harder I bet just because the better players will be just that much better with vision.

In bronze there are shitty players and players who are in the process of leaving bronze.

Ugh, this again. You're talking about some distant point in the future, after everyone has played a statistically large number of games. I'm talking about right now. People who are "in the process of leaving bronze" are still in bronze today.

But mostly what I'm objecting to is vague, non-quantifiable value terms like "bad" and "shitty players" which are often used more as prosthetic e-penises ("What's a bad player? Well, someone who's one level lower than me, of course! Because I'm sure it's obvious to everyone that I'M not bad, even though there's hundreds of players ranked higher than me, too!") than as useful terms for discussion. "Everyone in bronze has lost more than 60% of their games" or "everyone in bronze is lower than 1200 Elo" are fine, we can discuss why that is or what can change it or whatever, but flat out declaring "everyone in bronze is bad" is just masturbation. It kills discussion. We can have a discussion about matchmaking if you want, but generally insulting people isn't helpful.

1) They don't ward: or don't ward in the right spots: or expect their support to carry the ward burden for them: or don't buy oracles : or don't buy oracles2) They don't buy pots: or don't buy pots when they go back: or don't use the pots they buy.3) They purchase inefficient items: they build AP before Pen, they build Hurricane on an ADC, they build GP10: they build snowball items ; they build BotRK on everyone4) They don't purchase items to stop what the enemy team is doing5) They Chase 6) They do not focus on objectives; and/or they don't focus on the right objectives; they focus on objectives at the wrong time7) They do not understand what it takes for their team composition to win; They don't understand the types of fights their team composition wins; they don't focus on getting those fights and avoiding the other ones8) They do not pick champions to counteract the enemy teams composition; they don't pick champions to synergize with their allies composition9) They do not have map awareness; they are not ever where they need to be after the laning phase; They do not realize when their allies are not with them10) They farm poorly: Both in lane and outside of lane; They don't understand when they should be farming and when they should not be11) They do not know what they should be doing in a team fight and do not know how this changes even for the same champions depending on the situation; within team fights their positioning is poor12) Their mechanics are poor: The don't understand ability weaving, attack moving, bush mechanics, line of sight mechanics, ability ranges, creep mechanics and damage, lane XP etc etc13) They don't understand wave manipulation and why pushing is advantageous14) Their decision making is poor, not understanding which skirmishes they can win and what they can't where enemies are likely to be.15) They're toxic/defeatist; They blame their teammates for their failings in the first 14 departments

That's bronze <---> gold. Where as plat players are merely below average at not being an utter retard. Diamond, average level not retard, challenger above average not retard. If you're in the north american server your already in a backwater, we're just fighting for the title of smartest redneck.

The champ/role queue finder thing is only going to work in normals or now by the way.

That's fine. When the Ranked queues die off after matchmaking goes in,we won't have to wait too long for them to get it implemented. I think the champ/role finder may be the one thing that can save the good players from Bronze/elohell.

What's going to cause a problem with the matchmaker is when it fails to find 2 someones willing to play support because almost nobody likes to play support. And if it's not on ranked, fuck it then, it's a waste of time.

What's going to cause a problem with the matchmaker is when it fails to find 2 someones willing to play support because almost nobody likes to play support.

I'm starting to see why nobody likes to play support. The game is full of crappy ADC's that overextend and teams that refuse to help ward then proceed to blame everything on support when they fail. The LoL community is literally the toilet bowl of the internet.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

In bronze there are shitty players and players who are in the process of leaving bronze.

Ugh, this again. You're talking about some distant point in the future, after everyone has played a statistically large number of games. I'm talking about right now. People who are "in the process of leaving bronze" are still in bronze today.

But mostly what I'm objecting to is vague, non-quantifiable value terms like "bad" and "shitty players" which are often used more as prosthetic e-penises ("What's a bad player? Well, someone who's one level lower than me, of course! Because I'm sure it's obvious to everyone that I'M not bad, even though there's hundreds of players ranked higher than me, too!") than as useful terms for discussion. "Everyone in bronze has lost more than 60% of their games" or "everyone in bronze is lower than 1200 Elo" are fine, we can discuss why that is or what can change it or whatever, but flat out declaring "everyone in bronze is bad" is just masturbation. It kills discussion. We can have a discussion about matchmaking if you want, but generally insulting people isn't helpful.

1) They don't ward: or don't ward in the right spots: or expect their support to carry the ward burden for them: or don't buy oracles : or don't buy oracles2) They don't buy pots: or don't buy pots when they go back: or don't use the pots they buy.3) They purchase inefficient items: they build AP before Pen, they build Hurricane on an ADC, they build GP10: they build snowball items ; they build BotRK on everyone4) They don't purchase items to stop what the enemy team is doing5) They Chase 6) They do not focus on objectives; and/or they don't focus on the right objectives; they focus on objectives at the wrong time7) They do not understand what it takes for their team composition to win; They don't understand the types of fights their team composition wins; they don't focus on getting those fights and avoiding the other ones8) They do not pick champions to counteract the enemy teams composition; they don't pick champions to synergize with their allies composition9) They do not have map awareness; they are not ever where they need to be after the laning phase; They do not realize when their allies are not with them10) They farm poorly: Both in lane and outside of lane; They don't understand when they should be farming and when they should not be11) They do not know what they should be doing in a team fight and do not know how this changes even for the same champions depending on the situation; within team fights their positioning is poor12) Their mechanics are poor: The don't understand ability weaving, attack moving, bush mechanics, line of sight mechanics, ability ranges, creep mechanics and damage, lane XP etc etc13) They don't understand wave manipulation and why pushing is advantageous14) Their decision making is poor, not understanding which skirmishes they can win and what they can't where enemies are likely to be.15) They're toxic/defeatist; They blame their teammates for their failings in the first 14 departments

That's bronze <---> gold. Where as plat players are merely below average at not being an utter retard. Diamond, average level not retard, challenger above average not retard. If you're in the north american server your already in a backwater, we're just fighting for the title of smartest redneck.

Not really. While the Korean pro teams (more really only the best of the Korean Pro teams) and probably the Pro Challenger league are above the NA scene everywhere else is pretty comparable. The people who have gone from NA to Korea and played up in the Korean Soloqueue (to Challenger) say its just about the same and maybe only a little harder than NA soloqueue

The things that make Korean teams better than NA teams isn't their soloqueue. Its the fact that its acceptable to be a pro-gamer in their culture and because of that, the sponsorships that they have demand a dedication and work ethic which is far beyond what NA does.

While I have dissected the technical reasons why TSM lost to C9 in the finals the real reason they lost was because it was 7v5. C9 has a separate manager and analyst. TSM does not(well now they have a manager/analyst but Regi should only be managing and should get someone else to analyze). The best Korean organizations have multiple in house teams with whom to scrim, managers and analysts across the teams and within the teams. They treat esports like a real sport with the athletes expected to do nothing except think about the game.

What's going to cause a problem with the matchmaker is when it fails to find 2 someones willing to play support because almost nobody likes to play support.

I'm starting to see why nobody likes to play support. The game is full of crappy ADC's that overextend and teams that refuse to help ward then proceed to blame everything on support when they fail. The LoL community is literally the toilet bowl of the internet.

Overextend with your ADC. Murder the enemy team. You're probably the strongest 2v2 champion on your team at level 1 make use of it.

Overextend with your ADC. Murder the enemy team. You're probably the strongest 2v2 champion on your team at level 1 make use of it.

That may work great with the people you play with, but in under 30 randoms... not so much. Couple to this the fact that I'm nowhere near your level of ability.

One of the things that will help you get better as a support is realizing that it is not the ADC's job to carry the lane. For the most part its the supports job to carry the lane. You won't be able to do it every time (because the enemy support will be doing the same thing) but if you don't go into the lane with the understanding that zoning, harassing, and engaging on the enemy duo is your job then you will lose lane to the support who does that.

(for the most part, I can't solo carry lanes very often if my ADC isn't competent

One of the things that will help you get better as a support is realizing that it is not the ADC's job to carry the lane. For the most part its the supports job to carry the lane. You won't be able to do it every time (because the enemy support will be doing the same thing) but if you don't go into the lane with the understanding that zoning, harassing, and engaging on the enemy duo is your job then you will lose lane to the support who does that.

(for the most part, I can't solo carry lanes very often if my ADC isn't competent

I figured that it was my job to create space for my ADC so he can get more cs. In essence, it's my job to sustain them in lane to maximize their farming potential. Did I get that part right?

Most ADC's in < 30 randoms seem more interested in ganking than they do in winning the war of attrition. In doing that, they constantly put themselves into situations that make it tough to bail them out of. Perhaps it's an issue of communication.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

One of the things that will help you get better as a support is realizing that it is not the ADC's job to carry the lane. For the most part its the supports job to carry the lane. You won't be able to do it every time (because the enemy support will be doing the same thing) but if you don't go into the lane with the understanding that zoning, harassing, and engaging on the enemy duo is your job then you will lose lane to the support who does that.

(for the most part, I can't solo carry lanes very often if my ADC isn't competent

I figured that it was my job to create space for my ADC so he can get more cs. In essence, it's my job to sustain them in lane to maximize their farming potential. Did I get that part right?

Most ADC's in < 30 randoms seem more interested in ganking than they do in winning the war of attrition. In doing that, they constantly put themselves into situations that make it tough to bail them out of. Perhaps it's an issue of communication.

That was the meta like 2 years ago, when sustain was king. But now bottom lane is murderlane. I will create space for my ADC so he can get more CS by murdering the enemy laners. When they're dead and/or not in lane my ADC can farm in safety.

I mean, i won't push into fights I cannot win, and I expect my ADC to do the same. But I also realize that "getting more CS" isn't the goal of the laning phase. Its "coming out ahead of the enemy lane". If, as ADC, i lose 1 CS to deny 2 to the enemy ADC. I generally won that trade. If I am an ADC which needs to win early game and does better with lower amounts of farm than the enemy then I have to make that trade every time in order to win the lane.

What's going to cause a problem with the matchmaker is when it fails to find 2 someones willing to play support because almost nobody likes to play support.

I'm starting to see why nobody likes to play support. The game is full of crappy ADC's that overextend and teams that refuse to help ward then proceed to blame everything on support when they fail. The LoL community is literally the toilet bowl of the internet.

You're still below 30 right? It gets a little better as your MMR goes up. I know as I was leveling I kept playing without a jungler and duo top. I hope with S4 coming playing support starts getting a bit better. I enjoy playing support in soloq because I typicall don't build support, but just play a really poor AP mid then go full farm mode mid game and try to catch up.

Matchmaker will be fine because you can still do normal queue, and I bet some people are willing to wait longer to guarantee them playing mid or top.

Overextend with your ADC. Murder the enemy team. You're probably the strongest 2v2 champion on your team at level 1 make use of it.

That may work great with the people you play with, but in under 30 randoms... not so much. Couple to this the fact that I'm nowhere near your level of ability.

One of the things that will help you get better as a support is realizing that it is not the ADC's job to carry the lane. For the most part its the supports job to carry the lane. You won't be able to do it every time (because the enemy support will be doing the same thing) but if you don't go into the lane with the understanding that zoning, harassing, and engaging on the enemy duo is your job then you will lose lane to the support who does that.

(for the most part, I can't solo carry lanes very often if my ADC isn't competent

That's a good mindset to have in any lane: it's your job to carry. But really, as a support you job is not to play the healer/buffer and just sit there supporting your ADC by giving him stats or sustain. Your real job is to put your ADC into positions to win. You're job is to mindfuck the other team into making a mistake. You want them to go all in on you, when they can't win, so your ADC gets a double kill. Or you want them to chase you into the river, where you die, but the jungler and ADC mop up.

You don't actually support the player, you set the lane up for success. That's a support, and different champs do it in different ways.

For example, I played Sona the other night with a friend. He wasn't having a good game, as half way through the laning phase I was 2/0/2. All I did was make the other team nervous enough with my poke that they went all in on me (not my ADC) I dropped my ulti and they died.

I then build a sightstone, tear, kages, philo and was on my way to making a Deathcap but they GG"d at 20 and we won.

The biggest thing to learn in LOL is a champs limitations. That just takes time and practice. You have to known how much damage you can take and dish out. You have to know when you can push or stay back.

I'm starting to see why nobody likes to play support. The game is full of crappy ADC's that overextend and teams that refuse to help ward then proceed to blame everything on support when they fail. The LoL community is literally the toilet bowl of the internet.

As support whenever your team is losing the other team gets map control and clears wards, then your team spends the rest of the game bitching about how you aren't warding enough. It just comes with the territory.

As far as what a support does in lane, the most important thing is to have presence. These days I play mostly support but when I occasionally play ADC sometimes I get stuck with a support that does nothing and it's basically a 1 v 2 lane. That REALLY sucks and is a good way to learn what not to do. Like the enemy has 80 cs and you have 30 level of suck. As a support I am very active and am generally in front of or even with the ADC, not standing way behind him.

You should also be doing things like keeping track of where and when the enemy warded, which summoners are up, deciding when you can go hard. Your ADC is typically concentrating a lot on CS so it's up to you to realize that you just bought a big item and can win a 2 v 2, or that you're behind and need to be safe.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 10:42:02 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.

Yeeea, little of what I see in the s4 changelog makes me happy. They need to put a hard cap on initial wards, and make them respawn at set times once the starting stock is exhausted. Layering systems on top of systems is bad.

Just figured I'd post this, since unless you're reading/playing every day, you might not have noticed that One for All mode is live, now (well, as of yesterday, anyway) temporarily.

Supposed to be the first of their "gimmick" modes, One for All pits two groups of five summoners all playing the same champions against each other. So, like, 5 Karthus vs. 5 Teemo or something. Mode's only going for the next ten days, though, so if it sounds interesting, better check it out while you can.

Also live are most of the big S4 changes, the jungle stuff and support stuff and ward stuff, so I'm mucking around with those. Seems ok so far, but I've only put in a few games.

Played this mode last night. Bans were interesting and we ended up being a team of Rivens vs their team of Bitzcranks.

The Blizcranks owned the kills top and bottom early game, they seemed very organised with grab, stun then grab, stun and were hugging the towers making it hard to last hit as riven for fear of a grab. Mid-late game Riven came into her own and it was possible to smash Blitz, one of the players was pulling pentakills. I'd built tanky and was initiating and surviving a lot of the group encounters with a few bars left. We lost a player to a DC but had taken the mid lane towers down to a tower loss top and bottom. The Blitzes just couldn't seem to hold it together in the end even being a player up.

Its actually a fun concept - I'd never played Riven before but being forced into it made me appreciate her.

Fun concept, I still have no idea yet what the best choices are for this style of game, which makes it more fun for me :)

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."

Well I have to say the changes haven't affected my playstyle any. At least in the silver league players bitching about wards has gone from very high to close to zero overnight. Stuff like dragon, baron, ganking pathways are routinely left visionless or lightly guarded. To ward effective you have to constantly recall or just ward when you blindly rush into various bushes. With the trinkets low level try hards are at least placated. What I'm starting to see is people build actual items on support champs, well at least the tanky ones, and being called trolls . Overall no change where I'm at, I don't suspect the changes to matter to anyone not platnium the way these guys play.

With the increase in warding options, I'm still stunned how little some people actually ward. I played one game as Varus, Sona was my support and she just flat out seemed unwilling or unable to ward the river bush. So much so, we took a few ganks simply because the only thing she bothered to do there was use the reveal trinket to bust their wards. Jungle ganks are seeming more prevalent against me, though my team's apparently don't know how to gank.

Well its a pain in the ass to support now with the ward limits and as I predicted. Less of a issue with the higher leagues, but low level players just won't ward as much or at all as they don't feel a need to get new wards with access to the trinket.

Well its a pain in the ass to support now with the ward limits and as I predicted. Less of a issue with the higher leagues, but low level players just won't ward as much or as all as they don't feel a need to get new wards with access to the trinket.

Seems that there is little to no incentive to play a traditional support in Normals now. Bottom lane is now ADC + mid mage. The best part, I've played 15 games this weekend and every single one of them was filled with loudmouthed brats.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."