I'm just bored of being called either overpowered and ridiculed for playing and 'easymode' class, or a retard because I tank as Frost, because I choose the avoidance and balanced threat over gobs of stamina.

Levantine wrote:I'm just bored of being called either overpowered and ridiculed for playing and 'easymode' class, or a retard because I tank as Frost, because I choose the avoidance and balanced threat over gobs of stamina.

Levantine wrote:I'm just bored of being called either overpowered and ridiculed for playing and 'easymode' class, or a retard because I tank as Frost, because I choose the avoidance and balanced threat over gobs of stamina.

Just remember Lev, You're good enough, you're smart enough, and gosh darn it people like you.

I also tank as frost. Most of the time when I tank crap, its AE junk that needs to die quick and the burst potential of HB lets the team open up a bit sooner (or at least thats what I like to tell myself). Mainly though it is because I am frost DPS and the button sequences are similar enough. Our warrior tanks love it when I help out for things like Thorim or Freya =)

I love me some Frost.

I will say that changing to frost presence after dpsing in unholy presence for so long makes me uggghhhhhhh. 1.5s global cooldowns are an eternity!

Kelaan wrote:I was going to say, I don't think you will get many "overpowered" complaints from paladins. Pally tanking still seems easier than DK tanking (so far - part of that is practice, I am certain).

Death KnightsDue to significant talent changes, all death knight talents will be reset for players.Blood Strike: The bonus damage this ability receives from diseases on the target has been increased to 50% per disease.Chains of Ice: Now reduces movement by 95% instead of 100%. The main effect of this change will be that targets of Chains of Ice will not have to re-issue a movement command to continue moving.Frost Presence: 10% bonus health reduced to 6% bonus stamina.Frost Strike: This ability can now be dodged, parried, or blocked. Weapon damage bonus reduced to 55%, down from 60%.Icebound Fortitude: Cooldown increased to 2 minutes.TalentsBloodDancing Rune Weapon: This ability now has a fixed duration of 12 seconds (which can still be modified by its glyph) and a fixed cost of 60 runic power.Veteran of the Third War: Stamina bonus reduced to 1/2/3%.FrostBlood of the North: Reduced to a 3-point talent. Increases Blood Strike and Frost Strike damage by 5/10/15%. There is now a 33/66/100% chance whenever you hit with Blood Strike or Pestilence that the Blood Rune will become a Death Rune when it activates.Lichborne: Duration reduced to 10 seconds, and cooldown reduced to 2 minutes.Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.Toughness: This talent now grants 2/4/6/8/10% armor instead of 3/6/9/12/15%, placing it in line with similar abilities of other classes.UnholyDesecration: This talent has been reduced to 2 points for 25/50% snare and no longer increases damage done by the death knight. It has also been moved one tier earlier in the tree and its spell effect has been made more transparent.Desolation: New talent. This talent is in the position formerly occupied by Desecration. It causes Blood Strikes to increase all damage the death knight deals by 1/2/3/4/5% for 12 seconds.Scourge Strike: Weapon damage bonus reduced to 40%, down from 45%. Damage increased by 10% per disease on the target, down from 11%.Summon Gargoyle: The gargoyle now flies lower to the ground, making it susceptible to melee attacks. This ability now has a fixed duration of 30 seconds and a fixed cost of 60 runic power.Unholy Blight: This talent has been redesigned. It no longer deals damage to nearby targets. Instead, when you deal damage with Death Coil, the target will take periodic damage for 10 seconds equal to 30% of the damage done by Death Coil. This damage accumulates in the same way as Ignite and Deep Wounds.

This is also not the final version of the patch notes. I do believe it's overkill though - and I've been very candid in stating the last few sets of changes were justified. I'm all for trying to level the playing field, but renaming the problem class does not solve the issue at hand.

Can't say I'm too thrilled with the current notes so I hope there are some tweaks to that down the line. Maybe I gear incorrectly or spec incorrectly but my HP's are already in line with other tanks at my gear level, I don't feel another nerf was needed.

I am mostly DPS frost and the change to frost strike kind of annoys me. I geared around not needing a whole lot of expertise since Frost Strike doesn't need it. Now I'll have to rethink my gearing choices. Also the new dual wielding talent seems interesting. I'm glad I picked up some 1hers that no one else wanted from Ulduar. I'm getting tired of looking at BoH, I wouldn't mind trying something new.

Currently it feels like they tipped the scales too far to the other side.

I'm curious to see what they will offer DKs in compensation for all the damage reduction they're doing away with in the last patch and possibly in this next one. Maybe some kind of absorb bubble like bears get?

Not going to say anything about the toughness or the Frost Presence changes, as we'll have to see how the numbers work out. If they're too low, then they'll have to pull some of that back. They're well known for overnerfing pre-PTR, anyway. However, the IBF change is long overdue. Hell, to *get* a 2 minute defensive cooldown AT ALL on my warrior takes a glyph and 2 talent points, so I don't see how not having a 1 minute cooldown will 'ruin' a Death Knight. (And yes, I have one, and I've tanked with it.)

FeralMoons wrote:Its unfortunate that we keep having to almost relearn this class as they continue to make sweeping changes each patch. Its getting to the point I just want to reroll again...nm I did!

Yeah, but DKs are a new class, that's the deal, take it or leave it. Blizzard is STILL changing playstyle of Paladins (in all three trees), and they've been there from the beginning.

My DK (unholy dps/frost tank) is still lvl 78 (been leveling quickly thanks to the fire festival!) and just recently got his tanking gear squared away to be in line for 80 (it helps when tanking mobs 4 levels higher than you). And I'm not sure how some of these changes will affect leveling DKs... But I'm defeinitely trying to get to 80 before the patch hits (and I won't even have to spend gold to respec my tanking and dps specs now ).

I understand the armor changes I think. They don't want high avoidance tanks with too much passive damage reduction. That makes sense. But these may be too much on top of the IBF change. I say this as someone who mainly plays a prot Paladin: YES 1min CDs feel OPed, but if they lower the EH of DKs enough, then it's important to always have a preemtive, on-demand damage reduction CD available. I think that was the original mindset that palced it at 1 min. This is mitigated by the fact that many spike damage attacks are magic-base, so AMS is available as well. Unholy still has bone shield and frost unbreakable armor for physical (I think that's waht it's called) and blood has WotN so it may be a wash in the end.

And I'm guessing the frost strike nerf was solely for PvP? I mean, great, ok, now expertise is even better for Frost tanks... but dangit you don't start getting gobs of the stuff until you're into epic gear, and high-end players will be focusing on hit and expertise for reasons of their other strikes (oblit), so it's realistically only another example of PvE leveling being a casualty of PvP... again.

we used to have another 10% parry but that was changed to 5% reduction. The change from 10% hp to 6% stam is so-so i think 8% stam would be a little better. Yes my avoid is higher but my Hp is usually equal or lower then other classes, but with a few bad luck hits 1-2k can save your ass. only time will tell i just hope this PTR will get some things ironed out.

Discerpo-Unholy/Blood Troll DKHorde-Gorefiend

Vindicated wrote: The hell? this is the internet, where I've been over 18 since I was 12.

Discerpo wrote: Yes my avoid is higher but my Hp is usually equal or lower then other classes, but with a few bad luck hits 1-2k can save your ass. only time will tell i just hope this PTR will get some things ironed out.

This is kind of the difficult scenario. It's hard to say without an armory what level your gear is but when you start to hit the end of Ulduar gear, I'm a good 5-6k hp ahead of the other tanks. Scaling back the stam buffs is reasonable as I'll probably be around the same HP again once I have 3.2 gear. This will make entry level DK tanks a bit squishier but it's kind of a necessary adjustment for the pve world.

Sudden Doom and Morbidity obviously becomes better when coupled to each other, but how about the rest? Would Blood Gorged be more threat per point than Morbidity?

Sudden Doom is near worthless as a tank talent. Blood Gorged is a great threat threat talent (some would say a must have for deep Blood). My personal view of the value of Morbidity in a Blood tank spec would be for its reduced DnD cooldown as I don't throw tons of Death Coils while I'm tanking.