Champlain Sourdough Recipe [Video]

Because I live on an island in the middle of Lake Champlain (in Vermont).

I made the starter here. I bake the bread here. And this is my favorite all-purpose loaf. I make it more often than any other. This is my go-to recipe, and it best typifies my style of bread and method of bread baking.

If I were to have a signature loaf, this would be it.

So as far as I’m concerned, this is the bread of the Champlain Islands. And since Jeffrey Hamelman already popularized the name “Vermont Sourdough“, I’ll keep mine a bit more local and call it “Champlain Sourdough”.

Description

This is an ever-changing loaf. Though I’ve provided a recipe here, it’s really just an example of the archetypal loaf I make. I’m often tweaking something here or there. But there are some commonalities that typify the Champlain Sourdough:

1) It’s a mostly white bread with a whole grain percentage ranging from 10-15%. This keeps the loaf light and versatile while offering enough whole grain to keep the flavor interesting and robust. I typically make the dough with bread flour (except when I’m out) because I prefer the dough quality and the slight chewiness bread flour confers, but you can sub all-purpose flour if you like.

2) The whole grain content keeps a close ratio of 2 parts whole spelt and/or whole wheat to 1 part whole rye. I’m particularly enamored with the 2 to 1 ratio of spelt to rye — I consider it the representative flavor of Champlain Sourdough — but I occasionally throw in some whole wheat just to mix things up (or if I’m running low on spelt).

There’s just something compelling about this combination of whole spelt and whole rye. I absolutely adore the flavor profile it gives. And the 2 to 1 ratio scales beautifully. What I mean by that is you can take this ratio to whole grain percentages as high as you want.

For example, you can make a high percentage whole grain loaf consisting of 40% whole spelt and 20% whole rye. The profile still remains perfectly balanced, you just get a much stronger whole grain flavor and a heartier heavier loaf.

And on the occasion that I mix in some whole wheat, I still keep that 2 to 1 ratio. A common recipe for me is to use 5% whole wheat, 5% whole spelt, and 5% whole rye. That keeps the amount of wheat/spelt at twice that of the rye. The balance remains the same, just a slightly different flavor profile than using all spelt.

I also often use that same ratio in other non-Champlain Sourdough breads. An example would be my European Peasant Bread, which is 11% whole wheat, 11% whole spelt, and 11% whole rye. It keeps that 2 to 1 ratio of whole spelt/whole wheat to rye, but just ups the amount to create a much hardier loaf.

This 2 to 1 ratio of whole spelt to whole rye is the signature flavor of Champlain Sourdough.

3) Hydration typically ranges from 70-75%. This is not a super hydrated Tartine-style country loaf. I’m not usually going for a ridiculously open crumb when I make this bread. That said, even at these hydration percentages you can still get a very open crumb if you handle the dough properly . . .

This particular loaf probably isn’t the best example of the moderately open crumb I typically strive for — it’s a bit too open — but it goes to show that you don’t need highly hydrated dough to achieve a light and open crumb. It’s a good thing I wasn’t planning on making sandwiches with this loaf.

4) This should be a long fermented dough. I’m originally from California so I’ve a taste for tangy breads. The starter can be either stiff or liquid (I use both depending on the occasion, with the stiffer starter providing more flavor and tang).

The key is to use a fully mature starter (8-12 hours old, but not overripe and proteolytic), in a small amount (typically I use 50 grams for an 800 gram loaf). This usually works out to around 5% pre-fermented flour, plus or minus a percent or two.

I try to get around 8-10 hours total fermentation time at around 78 degrees Fahrenheit. That usually works out to about 6 hours bulk fermentation, 1 hour while it rests after pre-rounding, and another 3 hours for proofing.

If I can get 10 hours I’m a happy camper — that seems to give me the best flavor. Of course, times vary with the weather and circumstance so I’m flexible.

I don’t typically retard my loaves because I prefer the flavor I get from the warmer fermentation, but feel free to adjust fermentation times and retard your loaf if you prefer. Retarding the loaf will also help you get a more open crumb if that’s what you’re after.

5) One last feature of Champlain Sourdough is that I almost always use the “pre-mix” method that I described in this post. While not a required part of the process, this method of mixing will enhance your loaf in several ways: improved flavor, improved dough quality (gluten development and extensibility), and improved crumb (more open). Pretty much all the benefits you’d expect from a long autolyse, just to a higher degree. To put it simply . . .

Pre-mixing your dough ahead of time helps you take your loaf to that next level.

I find it to be even more effective than a simple autolyse, and for that reason I consider it a stand-out feature of the Champlain Sourdough process.

So with all that said, below you’ll find a recipe that consists of the most common iteration of Champlain Sourdough that I make. It’s a 70% hydration dough with 12% whole grain (8% spelt, 4% rye). Unless I’m playing around, this recipe is my default. It is the quintessential Champlain Sourdough.

Champlain Sourdough Recipe

Instructions

1. Pre-Mix

As noted above, I “pre-mix” this dough. The evening prior to bake day I’ll weigh out all my flour, water and salt; and quickly mix it all up into a shaggy lump — just as if I was making an autolyse. Be sure your ingredients are more or less evenly incorporated, but don’t mix to the point of developing the gluten.

Cover this mixture and toss it into the fridge for a few hours. Because this mixture is going to sit for so long, it’s helpful to chill the dough to prevent too much wild fermentation and enzymatic activity. The inclusion of salt helps with that.

Don’t worry though, even with the inclusion of the salt this pre-mixed dough will still show all the attributes of a long-autolyzed dough, and then some.

Right before you go to bed, take the dough out of the fridge and set it on the counter to slowly come up to room temp overnight. By the time you get to it next morning it should be just the right temperature.

2. Add Starter

Weigh out your starter and add it to your dough (it helps to use a clean bowl here). The technique I use to make sure the starter is fully incorporated into the dough is best understood by watching the video.

Basically, you just want to spread the starter out on top of the dough then dimple it in to help work it deeper into the dough. Then you’re gonna fold the dough over itself several times to create layers of starter and dough sandwiched on top of each other.

Next, you’ll knead the dough by rolling it into itself over and over. This expands the number of starter layers exponentially and spreads it throughout the entire batch of dough.

Just a warning though: because the dough sat overnight the gluten has already pretty much developed. If you roll the dough too tight you’ll begin tearing the gluten sheets.

Not good.

As soon as you feel the dough really starting to tighten it’s time to take a break and let it relax for a few minutes. I usually knead the dough for 5-10 minutes to start, then take a 10-15 minute break to let the dough relax, then come back for a few more minutes of kneading at the end.

Adjust as necessary.

It really shouldn’t take too much effort to work the starter into the dough. Especially if you’re using a liquid starter. If you’re using a stiffer starter, you may need to add another start/stop mix cycle to be sure it’s completely mixed in. But even so, I’ve never needed more than 3 start/stop cycles over the course of 30 minutes to get it spread all the way throughout.

3. Bulk Fermentation/Folds

This dough should take 4-6 hours before it’s ready to shape. Preferably closer to 6. If the weather is too warm I might lower the amount of starter to make sure I hit my target. I’ve gone as low as 25 grams of starter, and as long as 8 hours bulk.

Adjust as you see fit.

The thing to pay attention to is proof volume. You don’t want this dough doubled in size. That’s too far gone and you’ll degas the dough during handling. You want to keep it slightly young. You need enough air inside for it to hold its shape instead of flattening out, but not so much that the dough deflates to any degree.

I usually eyeball about a 30-50% rise, but that’s just an approximation. What I really judge is the feel of the dough as I fold it. It’s a far more accurate method to determine degree of proof, but not so easy to describe. It’s just one of those things that you pick up over time. But know this, if your dough degases even in the slightest when you handle it, then you’re either being too rough or the dough was too proofy.

I try to fold this dough hourly, but don’t let the folds run your day. You’re still gonna get good bread even if you don’t fold the dough at all.

But folding does improve the strength and structure of the dough. And it helps in lengthening the bulk fermentation due to the tension it builds into the dough (more tension requires more force to expand, thus necessitating a greater quantity of gas to achieve the same volume of proof).

Fold the dough in the bowl, as shown in the video. If you tip it out to fold it on a floured bench you’re gonna change the consistency of the dough, and you’re gonna damage it. Don’t compromise the integrity of your dough. It won’t be pleased with you, and doing so will result in a tighter denser crumb.

4. Pre-round/Shape

Easier demonstrated than described, so watch the video. Just be sure to be gentle at all times here. The rougher your hands, the tighter the crumb. So handle the dough with a light touch, but keep your movements quick and confident. Practice makes perfect.

As far as for how long to let your pre-round relax before shaping, 30-60 minutes should do. I usually aim for a 1 hour bench rest after pre-rounding. I find I get a better shaped loaf and greater oven spring with the longer wait.

But that’s dependent upon achieving the proper degree of proof before I turn out my dough (and how fast it’s rising). If I have a leisurely proofing dough, and judged the timing right, then a 1 hour bench rest usually isn’t a problem. If I misjudged (which I do from time to time) then I’ll shape whenever the loaf is ready.

How do you know if your pre-round is ready for shaping? See my article about proper benchwork for more detailed information on pre-rounding and the signs I look for before shaping.

5. Proof

I like to proof this loaf seam-side up in a linen-lined basket lightly dusted with rice flour. Of course, you can proof it in the basket without the linen if you prefer. You’ll get a better defined line pattern that way.

I prefer to proof in linen tea towels for a few reasons: 1) it guarantees the dough won’t stick to the basket. 2) it provides a convenient cover for the proofing loaf. And 3) it helps prevent “spread”, meaning the dough is more inclined to proof “up” rather than “out” making for a higher rise and a better shaped final loaf.

6. Score and Bake

I bake this loaf most often at 450 degrees Fahrenheit. I use a cast iron combo cooker (a dutch oven would work just as well) and keep the loaf covered for the first 20 minutes, then remove the lid and bake for another 25-30 minutes.

I’m aiming for a deep rich color, but I typically bake it lighter than some of the ultra-dark loaves that are popular these days. Yes, color is flavor, but I also want to make sandwiches that have a user-friendly crust. I want toast that doesn’t turn to hard brittle charcoal.

When I want super dark and crusty bread, this is not the recipe I use. Champlain Sourdough is my all-purpose loaf. And so I bake other breads when I’m looking for something super dark and crusty (which I enjoy, as well).

Sometimes, especially when I know I’ll be serving this bread to kids, I only bake it at 425F for 45 minutes. It makes a wonderful lightly colored and soft-crusted bread that’s easy on the jaw and perfect for toast.

All that said, score and bake this loaf however you prefer.

7. Cool and Enjoy

You know the drill — wait at least 2 hours before cutting into the loaf. You want the crumb to be fully set before you dig in, and the flavor will continue to improve the longer you wait.

But I know, I know . . . hot bread is hard to resist. So go for it if that’s what you’re craving. I won’t tell.

So that’s Champlain Sourdough for ya. I hope you found the video helpful and that you give this recipe a try. If you do, be sure and tell me your thoughts in the comments section. And if you have any questions be sure to ask them.

Comments

Hey there! Working my way through this recipe now, and am in the middle of the bulk fermentation / folds. The dough is lovely, but I’m having trouble with it sticking to the bowl quite a bit. Is it simply too wet? I’m not sure how to trouble-shoot at this point.

Hi Mary, without being there in person to see what’s going on I can’t say for sure what the problem is. My first thought would be underdeveloped dough, but since you say the dough is good then the problem probably lies elsewhere.

My second thought is maybe it comes down to the folding itself. Are you folding every hour? Sometime if I fold less often than hourly I’ll first scrape down the sides of the bowl because the long contact with the bowl causes the dough to stick too much. As an example, watch me fold the dough in my open crumb from stiff dough video. So you could try giving that technique a try to first release the dough from the bowl before folding.

Additionally, there’s a certain hand technique that I’m using that helps the dough to release cleanly. Now that I think about it, I haven’t really gone into detail about what I’m actually doing as I make my folds. Perhaps that should be another video. But if you watch my hands closely you can see that I press my fingers firmly against the side of the bowl and “slip” them behind the dough along the sides while pulling the dough from the underside, not the top. Almost as if my hand were a scraper itself. I know that may be hard to picture with that poor description, but that is the essence of the technique. Watch my folding technique closely a few times and you’ll see what I mean.

Lastly, perhaps it’s just the bowl you’re using. I use stainless steel bowls common to bakeries and restaurants. I’ve never tried this technique in other bowls. Ceramic or glass shouldn’t be a problem. Plastic might be more difficult, but I’d have to try it to find out.

Without being there in person to observe the quality of your dough and the technique you’re using to fold all I can do is really speculate, but hopefully I’ve given you enough info here to help you self-diagnose the problem. Let me know if you work it out. Good luck!

Amazing recipe and video… How long does the bread last? If I bake it on Saturday, can I eat it on Sunday? It a long process, so I think is going to be done by the end of the day…
And the second stupid question, can I bake it without the lid? I don’t have anything like it…
Thank for the recipes and the great videos!

1) Yes, you can eat the bread the next day after baking. That’s what I usually do. The flavor actually continues to improve for up to 24 hours after it’s baked so I usually don’t even cut into it until at least 12 hours later. Usually longer. Once you’ve cut into it, it should stay good for a few days so long as you keep the cut side down in a bread box, or keep it wrapped up in a bag or something.

2) The lid is what traps the moisture when it starts baking. This is necessary to keep the crust soft while the dough rises in the oven, and helps it do develop that shine. You can certainly bake without a lid so long as you have another method of steaming the oven. But most ovens don’t hold steam well so it can be a bit tricky to generate enough to make much of a difference. The lid simplifies the steaming process so you don’t have to take any extra steps.

Of course, there’s no law that says you have to steam your bread. So if you can’t cover your loaf, and you don’t generate any steam, you can still bake your bread. What will happen is that the crust will begin to set before the loaf has finished rising. This will give you a tighter denser crumb, diminished bloom, and a dull crust. It may not be as pretty, but the bread will certainly still be edible and tasty. Better to bake bread without steam than to not bake bread at all. Good luck!

So, like I said I don’t have a dutch oven… So I used a half ball cake pan as a lid…
I don’t make bread, I make cakes… But I spend the hole day today and I think the results are going to be amazing!
I’m taggeing you on Instagram, so I can show you the process. The bread is in the oven right know (11 pm here), and I’m eating it tomorrow, so I show you the final result… So far, I’m really happy, and your videos and technics do the mayor work!
Thank you!
Talk tomorrow, good night!

Thank you!! I know the crumb is no perfectly fine… I don’t know why it came out with so littles holes… But I think is just practice… So, probably I’m going to bake more bread until I get it! I want open crumbs like yours! Hahaha
Thanks again, you’re going to see my improve bread sooner than expected 😉

Hi Juliana, I’m looking forward to seeing more of your loaves! To me, it looks like the reason your bread had such smaller holes is because it was underproofed. You probably just need to let it proof longer or warmer (or a combination) or make sure that you have a very active starter to raise your bread with. But no worries, we all make underproofed bread when we first get started with sourdough. Learning to read the dough and know when it’s proofed correctly is a skill you’ll develop with time. Cheers!

Got a question regarding premix. If I was making a seeded dough should I put the pre soaked seeds in with the flour and water/salt at premix stage or should I leave them till I add starter or maybe even a first fold?

Hi Ali, I would go ahead and add them during the pre-mix stage. That way they will be evenly incorporated from the start. Because the gluten is fully developed from the long overnight rest, trying to work them in at a later stage might cause some tearing damage to the gluten. But just be careful, for the same reason when you add in your starter you may need to be a bit more gentle since the seeds may still have a tendency to tear through while you’re kneading.

Now, if you’re bringing a large amount of the water in with the seeds (from the soaking liquid) then perhaps it would be best to add it in with the starter. The pre-mix method can be a bit risky with wet doughs (though not impossible). In fact, if much of the water is locked up in the soaking seeds, you might not be able to use pre-mix at all — there just won’t be enough water left in the pre-mix to make a dough.

Really, the only way to know for sure what will work in your particular situation is just to try it and see what happens. Then adjust as necessary. Let me know how it goes. Good luck!

Dude! I’ve just discovered your vids and recipes, thank you 🙂 I’ve been really stuck in a rut making a lovely 100% white spelt high hydration loaf, but I’m feeling inspired to cut my hydration and work on my skills. I’m about 7 hours in to this one (went to beach.. Oops) just pre shaping. Wondering in your vid about the size of your Dutch oven, and bannetons. I’ve doubled your recipe and thinking might not fit…. Loving trying the Champlain (where even is that?!) in sleepy Devon (UK)

Hi Kim, I’m glad you’re giving my recipe a try! My dutch oven (combo cooker, actually) is 3.2 qts. And the 800g loaf fills it completely. A loaf twice that size will probably fit when you tip it out, but will be constrained when it bakes. But since you wrote this comment yesterday, you’ve already discovered how well it fits. Please feel free to clue me in, because I’m really only speculating here.

As for the bannetons, I don’t know their exact capacity. They’re just right for an 800g loaf, 8″ diameter, I think.

“Champlain” refers to Lake Champlain — a long lake that stretches along most of the length of the border between Vermont and New York states. I live on an island in the middle of the lake. That’s why it’s “Champlain Sourdough”.

Hey Grueso, glad you like the videos! Whole grain flour absorbs more water than plain ‘ol bread flour, so yes, in order to keep the dough consistency the same you’d have to reduce the water if you remove the whole grain from the recipe. With any bread recipe the hydration is always just a guide — there are just too many variables to give one hydration that will work for all folks and all flours. So definitely feel free to adjust the amount of water to get a dough consistency that you’re comfortable working with. Best of luck!

Hi Trevor,
Going to try your method tonight for the first time. We’ve chatted a bit on IG and you’ve been a great help and support.

Just wanted to ask about your starter. when do you use it? young, mature ? Its so different with each baker so would be really keen to hear about your experience.

Would be great to see a piece by you about your views on starters etc. what you use, percentages when feeding and any thoughts from your experience. Not that I’m trying to make more work for you!!!!!!!!
cheers
Dan

Hey Dan, good to hear from you over here! That’s great that you’re gonna give this a try. I hope that it works out for you.

Regarding my starter . . .

I prefer to use a fully mature starter (usually) that’s somewhere around 10-12 hours old. Though on occasion I use a younger levain. I’m sure that I’ll write a piece on my views about starters sometime down the road, but I’ll go ahead and give you the quick and dirty right here . . .

I don’t believe that ripe or mature or stiff or liquid or any of that makes one starter better than another. It’s all a matter of personal preference. Young starters bring a smaller acid load to the dough which makes for a bit more extensibility and a milder flavor. It’s great for bakers that really want the taste of their flour to shine through. And that’s to be expected when you’re paying a premium for top of the line organic heirloom and specialty milled flours.

I prefer a mature starter because I really want the flavor of fermentation to stand out. That’s what I like to taste in my bread. It’s the same reason I prefer sauerkraut to fresh cabbage. I’m not too particular about the flour so long as I can make good bread from it. Additionally, I like to use flour that I can pick up in most any grocery stores because most of the folks that are trying my recipes and methods are using flour that they also picked up from the grocery store. If I used hard to get premium flours then my recipes would be out of reach for the average home baker.

That said, I tend to use much smaller amounts of starter than most bakers use in their recipes. I prefer a very long slow rise. So even though I use a very ripe starter, I still don’t typically bring a ton of acid to the mix. It’s the long slow rise that really lets the flavor of fermentation develop.

As for how I maintain my starter, I’m not sure it would be very applicable for most home bakers. Because I bake very frequently, sometimes daily and often on the spur of the moment, I need my starter ready to go at all times. So I keep it on the counter at room temp (usually around 78F in my Brod & Taylor) and feed it twice a day — morning and night. Truthfully, it should be fed 3 times daily (every 8 hours) but since that’s too rigid a schedule for me, I take certain precautions to keep it from getting overly acidic.

1) I use a very small seed amount when I feed it. Pretty much just what’s left on the sides of the bowl after the discard. It brings virtually no acid to the mix and takes a little while to get going.

2) I often add a small amount of salt to slow things down even further. I don’t measure it, just a small pinch or so.

3) I tend to keep it on the stiffer side. Again, I don’t measure when I feed it (unless I know I’m going to be baking with it) I just eyeball the flour and water. I’m not too particular though — if it comes out on the wetter side then no biggie. I usually mix in some whole wheat with the AP, but again I just eyeball it — sometimes it’s a lot, other times it’s hardly any. When I’m going to be filming or developing a recipe for my site then I’ll typically make it 100% hydration because that’s what most home bakers are using. When I’m just making bread for myself, I tend to use it on the stiffer side.

My maintenance routine is really all about simplicity and flexibility. I don’t want to measure. I don’t want to take any more time than necessary.

When I know I’ll be baking I can adjust my starter on the fly. Do I plan on making 100% whole wheat tomorrow? Cool, I’ll refresh my starter with 100% whole wheat. Because there is so little seed it really doesn’t add any measurable amount of white flour to the mix (though it might only technically be a 99.9% whole wheat starter). Same with rye. Same with spelt. And so on. When I know I’ll be baking I omit the salt for the refreshment, but when I decide to bake on the spur of the moment I don’t sweat the salt that’s been added because it’s such a small amount it makes no noticeable difference in flavor or dough quality. And I don’t sweat the fact that I don’t know the exact hydration because I can adjust the hydration of the final dough be feel to get the consistency I’m looking for.

As you can see, I follow a philosophy of simplicity, flexibility, and not sweating the small stuff. I apply that philosophy to my starter maintenance routine, my bread, and my life as a whole.

Okay, so that turned out to be a bit more info than you probably were asking for. But, I hope it helped to give you a bit of insight to how I approach things. Best of luck with your loaf! Be sure and let me know how it goes.

Wow……. Thanks for the long response. Much appreciated. Great info and really helpful. Sounds like the rule of chill out and don’t worry too much about being particular is the theme. I like it!!!
I’ll let you know how it goes. Was worrying about young and mature starters etc but that’s because I’m reading too much I think. Everyone has a theory that they believe is the best. I love your more flexible thinking. It’s about trial and error as well I suppose. Sounds like your also saying don’t worry if the starter is on the more mature side for baking as it’s going to do its thing anyway and it’s pretty robust. Thanks again for the help mate. Have a great weekend. Cheers

Worrying about the ripeness of our starter is no way to spend our energies. Only the most hardcore of bread connoisseurs might ever correctly guess if you used a young levain or a mature one. In all other cases, no one eating your bread will know or care. So long as it’s strong enough to raise the bread –and not so old and acidic that’s it’s turned proteolytic — then young or mature are very minor considerations. At least in my mind. But like you say, everyone has their own theory. Cheers!

I built my starter two weeks ago, and now I’m trying to develop a mantinence routine that fits my day-to-day. I’m trying not to toss out too much flour, but should I be worried about feeding too little? Like if I want to feed on 12 hour intervals and give like 30g flour do I risk getting this really over ripe as it runs out of food or anything like that?

I’ve found this site and your Instagram really informative and helpful. Thanks!

Hey Zach, whether 30g flour is too little or not depends entirely upon how large your seed amount is, and how long you want it to proof for given the prevailing conditions (temperature/humidity, current activity of starter, the flour you’re using, etc.). Typically, a good place to start for a white starter with room temperature refreshments every 12 hours is to use a 20% inoculum (seed). So . . .

If you keep a starter that’s 100% hydration (equal parts water and flour) then your feeding ratio would be considered 1:2:2 (one part starter, 2 parts water, 2 parts flour; all by weight). That’s a 20% seed (1 part out of 5). So if you want to use 30g of flour then your feeding ratio would consist of 15g seed, 30g water, and 30g flour. Twice a day at 12 hour intervals.

Now, if you were to keep a starter that’s 50% hydration (one part water for every 2 parts flour) then you might go with a 25% seed (since stiff starters rise more slowly than liquid ones, and since the numbers are convenient). So your feeding ratio would be 1:1:2 (one part seed, 1 part water, 2 parts flour). So if you want to feed with 30g flour then your feeding would be 15g starter, 15g water and 30g flour. Twice a day at 12 hour intervals.

Keep in mind that this is just a guide. It’s a good place to start, but ultimately it’s up to each baker to figure out the feeding ratio/maintenance schedule that works best for them. Once you learn to read the signs of over or underactivity then you’ll be able to determine whether or not you’re feeding it too much or too little and adjust accordingly. But it always takes a bit of time to get to know your starter — it’s just part of the process of learning to bake sourdough. Good luck!

Hi Trevor, I’ve enjoyed reading your blog and watching your YouTube videos immensely. Thank you for making your story available for bread enthusiasts like me. Your story and your journey are inspirational.

My question is about starter. The starter you used for making your Champlain Sourdough in the video, if you have to take a guess, would you say the inoculation is no more than 10%, or something like 1:5:5, or even 1:6:6?

Hello Trevor,
I’ve just jumped here from YouTube. I join the fresh loaf so am familiar with your name.
I was going to give a go Tartine country bread and when did Google I hit your video how to make Tartine style and this method impressed me very much. Before trying your Tartine style I feel I should try my hand with Champlain sourdough. But unfortunately I haven’t got whole spelt so instead of spelt I’ll use 437g bread flour and 18g rye flour(not whole rye, I think). I’d like to ask how to adjust the hydration? How much water I need to add to dough?

Hi Ako, I’m glad you found me here! I think you’ve got the right idea in starting with a more user-friendly bread such as the Champlain Sourdough before jumping right into Tartine style bread.

Unfortunately, I can’t tell you how much to adjust the hydration because I know nothing of your flour and environment. Any recipe is, at best, just a guide. There are too many variables for it to be perfect for all situations. Even if you were using the exact same flour as me your dough might be stiffer or wetter depending upon your particular environment and circumstances.

So whatever I suggest is really just a guess and could send you completely in the wrong direction. That said, I’m going to venture a guess anyway. Since your dough will consist only of bread flour and rye — with no whole grain — there’s a fair chance that your dough will not take as much water as my dough. Of course, I know nothing of your bread flour so I’m making my guess based on very limited information. If your bread flour is weaker than mine (mine is 12.7% protein) then that alone would require less water.

So . . .

You may very well need much less water than my recipe calls for, especially if you’re using a lower protein bread flour than I do. It’s usually better to start too stiff than too wet. So maybe drop the hydration by 5-10 percent. Here’s what those two recipes would look like with the 4% rye that you’re using . . .

The key is to find the right amount of water that gives you a consistency that looks similar to what you see in the video. Or to find a consistency that is comfortable for you to work with. If the dough feels too wet and difficult to handle — even if it looks the same as the dough in my video — then reduce the water until you get a dough that’s stiff enough for you to comfortably work with. Then slowly increase the amount of water as your skills allow.

I really appreciate guidance from you and thank you for taking so much time to answer my question.

I’ll try 65% hydration you gave me and see my dough carefully. Your instractions are very in detail and plus videos in which I can learn a lot of things about baking sourdough bread.

Today here in Japan it’s Friday, when I get home I’m going to start your Champlain 65% hydration and bake my first bread and then Saturday evening I’ll prepare the scond attempt. For a while I stick to Champlain and when I get the hang of using your method I’ll move on to Tartine style. Anyway, I’ll report you my attempts!

I’m glad I can help, Ako. Don’t worry about the multiple comments — my website can be slow at times. If I had better tech skills I could probably fix that up, but I’m a baker not an IT guy. Anyway, I went ahead and cleaned up the duplicate comments so all is well.

My first attempt is not bad until the dough is ready to go in the oven.

I’ve never used a linen cloth and this is the first time I’ve tried it. I am really afraid that the dough might not come off a line cloth so I always use oven paper.

It has happened! The linen cloth did’t let the dough go!! I managed to pull apart the top of the dough and turn the top upside down ( because the top was shaggy and impossible to score) and place it in Lodge. The sourdough is now out of the oven and seems not to be deflated:)

I’ll cut the first Champlain sourdough tomorrow and of course second attempt is ready!
Next attempt would be better!

Hi Ako, that’s too bad that your loaf stuck to the linen. Did you dust the cloth with rice flour before putting the dough into it? If not, that should prevent the dough from sticking next time. And if you did, then perhaps a bit more rice flour might help.

Something else to consider — if you proofed in a bowl instead of a basket then the dough is unable to breath as it proofs. This causes condensation to accumulate and can cause the dough to stick to the cloth. If you don’t have a basket you can always line a cheap plastic collender with the linen — the holes in the collender will let the dough breath.

And one last thing, be sure that the cloth you use is real linen or fine lint free cotton. Linen is the best. Don’t use terrycloth.

But don’t feel like you have to proof in linen. With a stiffer dough like this you can usually proof right in the basket (if you have a basket) so long as you give it a fair coating of rice flour. You can even proof it free-standing if you like, though if you don’t yet have good shaping skills the loaf will come out much flatter.

Or, if you already have a preferred method of proofing that works well for you then feel free to use that method instead. It’s really up to each individual baker to find out what works best for him or her and to adjust all recipes and methods as necessary. Better luck next time!

Hi Ako, you don’t have to use rice flour. Regular bread flour will work too. But rice flour works best. It can absorb more moisture and better prevent the dough from sticking. If you use regular flour you may need to give it a heavier coating to make sure the dough doesn’t stick. Good luck with your next loaf! Be sure and let me know how it goes. Cheers!

Hi Trevor,
Second attempt of Champlain sourdough seems good. I’ve never had a big oven spring but today dough has went up about 10cm(4inches). My colander is too small to use for proofing so I’ve chosen free-standing proof. Now sourdough is on the rack and tomorrow morning I cut it half and see it crumb.
Again, thank you for giving me precise direction.
Ako

Please do! I’ll head on over there to check it out myself. If your loaf had just a few very big holes surrounded by lots of tight little holes then that could be a sign that the dough was a bit underproofed. But I’ll have to see for myself to be sure, so let me know once you’ve posted it over at Fresh Loaf. Thanks for keeping me informed of your progress. Cheers!

Hi Ako, I saw your post over at The Fresh Loaf and it looks good! I tried twice to leave a response over there, but for some reason the website wouldn’t accept my reply. But what I tried to say was that the big holes were probably the result of a combination of a slightly underproofed dough and possibly some air bubbles got trapped during the shaping process. Other than that your loaf is beautiful! Every time you bake it you’ll find that your loaves get better and better. But you’re already well on your way to making some great bread. Nicely done!

Trying this now at 65% hydration with a rye starter!
I’ve been making sourdough bread for about 3 months now and came across you on instagram.
Followed various methods and recipes but I think I will take some advice you gave to others and go back to basics with lower hydration to get technique down before aiming for higher hydration loaves.

Not much oven spring. Consistent with the loaves I usually end up with.
Only twice have I ever baked loaves which had good oven spring!

Notes on the day’s work:

1) Mixing the starter into the pre-mix was difficult. The dough was quite wet and sticking to my bowl. I’m not sure why this is the case even at 65% hydration (lowered the water to 282g). I will maybe try and lower this to 60% and see how that goes. The flour I use is strong white and has 12g of protein but seems to stay sticky. I may also change this for another brand to see if that makes a difference. Also ordered a metal mixing bowl too.

2) Pre-shaping was not the best. The dough would stick to my scraper. I think I need a bowl of water for my hand and scraper to prevent sticking at all times.

3) After turning the dough out into the Lodge Combo cooker it flattened into a pancake. Is this a sign of overproofing? I have heard that rye starters can be more active than others so can this be a cause? If so maybe reduce the starter down to 25g or proove for a shorter time.

Honestly the most frustrating thing is not getting the oven spring after seeing the dough flatten once it is in the lodge cooker. I will try again next weekend with some adjustments and see how it goes. Still hoping to achieve the one consistent loaf that I can make weekly! I guess I got lucky 2 times previously.

From the looks and sounds of it, your loaf isn’t overproofed it’s underproofed. Dough that spreads after you turn it out for baking is one of the classic signs of underproofed bread. Did your dough gain much volume during the bulk proof? Did it flatten out into a pancake after you prerounded it?

There can be several causes of underproofed bread. Often times simply extended and/or warming the proof can fix the problem. But sometimes it’s caused by an insufficiently active starter, and that’s a bit more tricky to fix. It requires messing around with feeding and maintenance schedules until your starter is strong enough to raise bread.

Without knowing anything more than what you’ve told me here, I would guess you might have an inactive starter based on the fact that this seems to be a recurring problem. Some info on your starter maintenance routine would be very helpful.

Is it 100% rye (whole rye or white rye?)
Do you keep it refrigerated or leave it at room temp?
If refrigerated, do you use it straight from the fridge or do you build it back to activity with several room temp refreshments first?
How often do you feed it?
What ratio do you feed it at? (for example, 1:1:1 would be 1 part starter, 1 part water, 1 part flour all by weight).
Does it double or triple in volume within 8 hours after feeding?

Regarding the sticky dough, there could be several reasons for that as well. It might just be the difference in flours (mine is 12.7% protein) or humidity levels. But if you have an overly acidic starter due to insufficient feeding that can also create a sticky and weak dough that is prone to tearing.

I agree that bringing the hydration down a bit is a good place to start. But my suspicion is that you need to get your starter healthy and active before you start to see that nice oven spring you’re looking for. Pictures of your starter (especially at about 8 hours after feeding at room temp) would be very helpful. The more info you can provide the more likely we’ll be able to accurately pinpoint the problem.

I liked the taste, but does the larger holes on top mean underproofing?

It didn’t gain much volume during the bulk and it did flatten during the bench rest too.

My starter is 100% whole Rye. I keep it at 100% hydration, feeding it 1:1:1.

For this bake it had been in the fridge for a few days. I took it out the day before and fed it twice. It doubled in size 10 hours or so after the second feeding.

Usually I feed once a day, and keep it in the fridge if I won’t be baking.

Today I will discard all but 10g of the starter and feed it 50g whole Rye and 50g water. I will keep it at room temperature and every 12 hours I will remove around half and feed the starter again. I’ll try this until Thursday or Friday and bake with it to see what happens. I’ll take pictures along the way too.

Thanks for the help. Your advice is really good and is helping me quite a bit so it is much appreciated that you are taking your time to help those who ask.

The crumb shot verifies that the loaf was underproofed. Underproofed loaves typically don’t get much ovenspring, and they usually have a few large holes surrounded by tight (and often gummy) crumb. Sometimes they have a flying crust (where the top crust separates from the rest of the crumb).

Based on your feeding ratio, I’d have to guess that your starter is perpetually old and acidic. It’s important to remove the acid load with each refreshment, and it’s hard to do that if one-third of the refreshed starter is seed from the old starter. You have the right idea to do a massive discard and feed it at a 1:5:5 ratio. Hopefully that’ll get rid of the acid load.

A starter that doubles in 10 hours is almost there, but not quite. It really should at least double in 8 hours. And a fully active starter — the kind that gives a nice open crumb — should triple in volume in 8 hours or less. But I’ll be honest, I don’t have a ton of experience with all rye starters. But on the few occasions where I have made all rye starters (whole rye), they pretty much followed the same pattern. Still, take my advice here with the understanding that I’m not an experienced rye starter user.

But I’m guessing that once your starter is back to full health, at room temps it’ll probably best be fed at a 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 ratio 2 or 3 times a day. The goal to aim for is to discard as much as possible while still keeping the starter active enough to at least double in 8 hours. It’s a tricky balancing act that takes some time to figure out. And then — just when you’ve figured it out — the weather will change on you and you have to figure it out all over again. Gotta love sourdough.

Hey Adnan, your loaf looks great! Thank you for sharing! And thanks for the youtube link — it’s a fun video to watch. I’m glad you’ve found a way that works well for you, and I’m happy I was able to help out however I could. Keep up the good work buddy. Cheers!

Hi Trevor,
l was following all directions. Just add starter and trying to mix like in your video but my dough is unbelievable wet sticky and not even close to what is in your video. l am using metal bowl. It’s stick to hands like crazy. l am trying to roll it against walls of the bowl but it doesn’t work. l am making sourdough for 4 year. Found your amazing blog and really wanted to try your method. Please help.

Hi Tania, I’m sorry to hear you’re having trouble with this. In order to determine exactly what the problem might be, I would have to be there alongside you in person to see for myself what’s going on. So with such limited information, my best guess is that the flour you are using doesn’t absorb as much water as the flour I use.

This is actually a pretty common problem. I don’t know where you live, but the North American flours that I use are typically higher in protein content than the flours found throughout much of the rest of the world. Protein absorbs water. So if you’re using a lower protein flour then you will need to reduce the amount of water in order to achieve the same consistency of dough that I get. Any bread recipe is therefore really just a guide. Ultimately, it’s up to each individual baker to adjust as necessary.

I hope that helps out a bit. If you have any additional information that you think is relevant then let me know and maybe we can pinpoint the problem a bit more accurately.

Thank you very much for your reply.
l live in Santa Monica CA close to the ocean.
The flour what l used is King Arthur organic bread four, rye flour fresh milled from Whole foods berries in my Komo duett 200 right before mixing and One degree org. sprouted spelt flour ( didn’t have whole spelt for milling).
Bread tastes very good but didn’t rise a lot.
What flour are you using?

I also use the King Arthur bread flour. Since we’re using similar flours, that’s probably not the problem here. Did you use the premix method? That can cause problems if the dough is left out too long, especially in warmer weather (or if the salt wasn’t included), or if it wasn’t first chilled in the refrigerator. In warm Summer weather I never leave the dough out more than 8 hours. In the Winter time I’ll let it go up to 10-12 hours. If I know I won’t be able to get to it within my time frame then I just leave it in the fridge overnight. It’ll be cold and stiff in the morning, making it more difficult to mix and slowing the proof until it warms up, but it ensures that nothing goes wrong.

And what can go wrong?

If the dough stays warm for too long then enzyme activity really starts kicking in (sprouted flour might also be more enzymatically active) and wild fermentation begins. This can lead to weak and sticky dough that tears easily and proofs into a flat shabby mess. If that sounds like what happened to you, then this could be the problem.

It also could be starter problems. If your starter is overly acidic and proteolytic (gluten degrading) then it can transfer those qualities onto the dough making for a similar experience as the overly enzymatic dough from above.

If it’s neither of those, let me know and we’ll see what else we can come up with. The more info you can provide me the better.

Thank you very much for your help.
Yes, l used premix method. After mixing l put dough in the refrigerator for about 3 hours and took it out before l went to sleep. Made 100% starter with all-purpose flour from my rye starter. In the morning it was ripe but didn’t have domn , was little flat already comper to rye starter. I disided to use white starter because it was in recipe.Maybe this is what happened like you said. l proofed it for two hours at room temperature and it was overproofed, my fault ( l was training) and didn’t watch dough carefully.
Your loaves are pieces of art with a soul. It is hard to resist to not try to make your bread all the time.
Sorry for my English, it is not my native language.
Can you tell me please what size of benneton are you using?
Thank you.

Hi Tania, I confess that I’m at a bit of a loss as to what went wrong for you. The only things that I can think of as possibly causing the problem are either the starter or the sprouted flour.

Sprouted flour typically contains more enzymes which will speed up the all the processes that happen as the dough rests overnight. And if it was a really warm night then that might aggravate the problem. But I’ve seen this recipe made with sprouted wheat flour and it came out just fine. So I’m not convinced that’s the problem.

I think it more likely that you had an issue with your starter. You said it didn’t rise as much as usual, but that it seemed ripe. Did it seem overripe? Was it nice and bubbly looking (healthy)? And was it nice and cohesive (did it hold together)? Or was it runny and sticky like glue?

If you had an overripe and proteolytic starter then it can degrade the gluten in the dough as it proofs. That doesn’t explain why it was so wet when you mixed it, but proteolytic starter itself is very sticky and runny and would make the process much messier than usual. I have had experiences when converting my starter from whole grain to white (and vice versa) where my starter temporarily became proteolytic. I’m not sure what might cause that, but it usually takes a few refreshments before it returns to a normal consistency. Since you converted from rye to white maybe you experienced something similar. It’s just a thought.

Those are really my best guesses. I wish I could be of more help, but without being there in person I can only really speculate. To answer your question about my banneton: my round banneton has an 8″ diameter, while my oval banneton is 9″ long. Both are perfectly sized for the 800 gram loaves that I prefer, but depending upon the dough they can hold up to 1000 grams or so.

If you have any other thoughts regarding what happened I’m happy to keep this dialogue going. But I’m not sure I’ll be able to solve this one.

Oh, and thank you very much for your lovely compliment! That was very kind!

Does this look like an accurate percentage for the Champlain Bread … Ive added 1/2 the weight of the starter to the flour and 1/2 to the water
389g Bread Flour 100%
38g Spelt Flour 10%
19g Rye Flour 5%
304g Water 65%
50g Starter 13%
9g Salt 2%
471g Total Flours 100%
329g Total Water 70%

BTW… This site is FAB… I have just read thru all the posts here in the Champlain Bread… and I am not believing how you are reading between the lines and then giving the right answers to questions that might not have even been asked!! AMAZING!! I am liking your philosophy that small things matter and that the pursuit of excellence is a worthy goal to have… In this world of high tech… hand made seems to be a much appreciated commodity and even a lost art

When my wife and I were first married I asked her if she would still love me when I was bald… and she said I don’t know yer not bald yet… well I’m bald now and 45 years later she still loves me… It must be because I am good with my hands…

Thanks Paul! I really appreciate that! It’s very difficult trying to diagnose problems without being there in person. Sometimes it’s just a matter of intuition and past experience. I work much better one-on-one.

I know that these numbers are a little bit confusing. Your numbers are more accurate to the listed ingredient weights. The problem is that I just subtract the flour in the starter (25g) from the total amount of the bread flour (since they’re both white flour, even though the starter is AP). So this throws off the percentage amount of bread flour, and it messes with the percentage amount of the starter since I based that percentage on the total amount of the flour in the recipe — which includes the amount in the starter. It’s kind of a chicken or the egg thing.

It’s probably not the best way to go about listing recipes, but it works well for how I create formulas — I always decide first the hydration, which then tells me how much flour and how much water I have. Then I portion out the flours (if I’m using multiple flours), and determine the salt. When I decide how much starter to use I don’t base it on baker’s percentage, but rather as a ratio to the entire dough. I like 1/16th for many of my recipes which works out to 6.25% of the total dough or 10.6% of total flour weight (including what’s in the starter). Then I just subtract the flour (and water) in the starter from the total in my recipe. It makes recipe creation very easy, but it also makes recipe representation a bit confusing. A better way might be to list the amount of prefermented flour.

So I think your numbers are correct based on how I listed the ingredients, but they’re not exactly the numbers by which I created the formula. I hope that makes sense.

And you can definitely double or triple this recipe just fine, though if you use the premix method it might become a bit more difficult to mix in evenly. Just be sure to mix by consistency rather than strictly by weight. What I mean by that is that if the dough seems a bit stiff then add some water, or if it seems a bit too wet then add some flour (and maybe a very small pinch of salt depending on how much flour you need to add). Sometimes ratios skew as recipes are scaled upwards. Best of luck!

Pretty excited about this. I didn’t have spelt, so I subbed stone ground wheat. My loaves (doubled the recipe) are in the oven now. One is smooshed into a cast iron skillet (from an oval proofing basket), and the other is in a cast iron Dutch oven with the lid on. I didn’t have a lid for the skillet, so I guess I’ll leave it in the oven for about 35 minutes or so. I peeked, and there is already a good oven spring. Hooray! I will post results to Instagram. Thanks again!

Well well well… I have 3 Oblong La Cloche clay Bakers that and all will fit into my oven at one time … so when I make bread I like to make 3 loaves at a time… easy to triple the recipe… my question is… is it best to mix all three loaves together then divide… or individually… If I mix all together when is the best time to divide??? just before the last fold… I am worried about ruining the integrity of the bread when I divide?? I am very self conscious about having all the loaves weight EXACTLY same amount of grams per loaf… sos I am cutting small pieces to make them equal… is this a game changer?? to the final loaves?? sos what would be your steps in making 3 loaves of bread… thankyou

Hey Paul, the best time to divide the dough would be at the end of bulk fermentation. Once the proof as finished, then turn out the dough onto a floured surface, and divide/scale the loaves prior to prerounding. I understand your desire for perfect weight measurements — as a professional baker I strongly believe that consistently accurate weights are a necessity.

That said . . .

Professionals have the luxury of volume and practice. Over time they learn to scale very accurately with as few cuts as possible. It’s best that a loaf not contain more than one or two extra little pieces to get the weight right. And professionals make so much bread that they can spare a crappy loaf or ten in the process of learning. As a home baker, however, you don’t get that same amount of practice or have any loaves to spare. And if you’re making loaves that consist of many pieces then that definitely will compromise the integrity of your loaf. You will end up with a more elastic dough and a tighter crumb.

So unless you’re very skilled at dividing you may have to make a choice — should you scale for accuracy? Or should you scale for quality?

There’s no right or wrong answer there — it’s just a matter of what’s more important to you. I hope that helps.

I’d guess I average around 3-5 loaves per week lately. Currently I’m not baking for a living, but I’m considering making a return to production work in order to polish my hand skills (and pay the bills).

Hey Paul, did you get my response to your email? If you didn’t then that could be the problem. Maybe my emails are going into your spam box. You may need to add me to your safe sender list for my messages to come through.

Otherwise, everything looked fine. I checked out your subscription and I can’t find anything wrong with it. My only other thought is that since you signed up after my last post was published, then the reason you’re not getting updates is because I haven’t published anything new yet. Nothing to update you with.

Or did you mean you’ve signed up for notifications whenever a new comment is posted? If that’s the case then I can look into that. It may take me a little while to figure it out since I’m not very technically inclined. Let me know if that’s the case. Cheers!

Hey Trevor,
This is the best blog about bread I have come across, really inspiring as you put the bread making process on a broader perspective relating it to, well, everything in life. I think we all have been there in those tough moments and having a passion for some form of art really helps to put us back on track. And you are also very supportive of us amateur bakers by answering all our questions with attention and holding no secrets, a rare quality these days.
I have been using way more starter than you in my dough, around 15%, I have even used up to 25%. If possible, I would like to know your insights on how does starter percentage affects the fermentation time and final bread, especially on the crumb texture and flavor.

Hey Nico, thank you very much for that great compliment! I’m glad you’re enjoying my blog! I simply can’t help but philosophize — it’s in my nature. But bread does make for a great analogy to life in general, so the philosophizing comes easily! To answer your question . . .

In my experience, the less starter in the dough (and the longer the fermentation) then the more flavorful the loaf will be. And vice versa. I know that’s counter intuitive, but that’s been my experience — and the experience of many others as well, that I’ve seen. I’ve even run side by side experiments just to make sure, and without fail the bread from the dough made with less starter always tastes better to me.

Keep in mind, that that’s a very subjective thing. I like a bit of tang to my bread. Many don’t. For those who prefer a less acidic flavor then using more starter with a shorter fermentation time will make for a better flavor. But in general, smaller seed amounts (accompanied by longer fermentation) make for more acidic bread. And vice versa.

Now regarding the crumb structure — in general, the smaller the inoculation the less acid load the starter will bring (all else being equal). Acid tightens gluten (in the short term) so the less acid there is the more extensible the dough will be. Extensibility is (usually) associated with a more open and irregular crumb structure.

Additionally, large amounts of starter can bring a large amount of degraded gluten to the dough. If the starter is mature (8-12 hours old), that is. If it’s young starter then that’s not such an issue. But if you do use a large amount of mature starter in your dough you will end up with a finer, less open crumb due to the partially degraded gluten that comes from the starter. Essentially, the greater the amount of prefermented flour, and the greater the age of that preferemented flour, the tighter the crumb will be.

Since my preference is for tangier bread with a more open crumb — and since I (usually) use a more mature starter — I get my best results by using very small amounts of starter. Because I use so little starter — even though it’s mature — it doesn’t bring too much degraded flour to the mix. And since I (generally) prefer a longer and slower rise to develop flavor and dough structure, the small inoculation helps me out on that point as well. It’s a win win as far as I’m concerned.

Great Trevor, thank you for the time and attention in answering my questions! I’ll run a test with less starter to see how it goes, I also like a bit of acidic flavor in my loaves and with your explanation it now makes sense why I have been having some issues with the crumb structure. Just another question on this matter, do you think fermentation time is directly proportional to percentage of starter, like “x starter = y fermentation time then 1/2x = 2y)?

I use a starter that I keep in my refrigerator and feed it a day before making the dough mix, I usually bake once a week. Do you think it is in danger of becoming proteolytic? It is all purpose flour with 100% hydration, it ferments whenever I feed but there was a period when I didn’t feed for a longer time and had that grey water on the surface (which I disposed before feeding).

Hey Nico, I wouldn’t say that starter amounts have a directly proportional relationship to fermentation time. I’m sure that in a controlled environment such as a laboratory scientists could find the direct relationship between (their) starter and fermentation time. In fact, I’m sure they have. But in the real world there are just too many variables to say. On a hot day, 75 grams of starter might proof your bread quicker than 150 grams on a cold day. Likewise, 100 grams of very active starter might proof your dough quicker than 200 grams of inactive starter.

You see how it goes?

Typically, temperature can have a more dramatic effect on rising times than starter amounts (within reason). Still, if you’re keen to get a better idea of the relationship between inoculation amounts and fermentation rates, you should check out the book “The Bread Builders“. As I recall, there was a decent amount of scientific discussion and some data graphs presented regarding this subject. I have the book, but I’d have to go back through and review it to say for sure what their conclusions were.

As to your maintenance schedule — if I’m understanding you correctly, you keep your starter in the fridge for a week or so, then take it out the day before you’re gonna bake to give it a single feed, and then use that to leaven your dough. Correct?

If that’s the case, it sounds to me like you would have an inactive and very acidic starter (potentially proteolytic). Usually a starter right out of the fridge needs at least a couple refreshments to remove the acid load and bring it back to health. Three refreshments might be more common. It’s asking a lot of your starter to expect that it will come back to full vigor after just one refreshment. But I’m just going based on past experience here, every starter is different and your circumstances are different than mine so who knows.

Anyway, I hope this helps out a bit. And I’m happy to continue the discussion if you have any further questions, comments or thoughts.

Sorry for this late reply, things got a little busy here and I got caught in the rush.

Yeah, that is my maintenance schedule, spot on. I felt it was enough because the starter would rise well after this single feed and the dough fermented quite well. But like I said, I was using a higher percentage of starter so maybe that was something that helped the dough in the bulk fermentation stage.

This weekend I had some time and did the test, fed the starter 3 times and used nearly 10% in the dough (because it was a cold day and I wasn’t confident enough in the starter’s strength). Much better results, nice bulk fermentation with 5 folds (1 every hour), great structure when pre-shaping and in final shaping. Sadly, I didn’t seal the seams very well and my scoring is always either shallow or not angled enough, or both (scoring is my weakest technique, I believe) and both loaves opened up a little at the seam. But crumb structure and flavor came out much, much better, thanks for the guidance!

I am placing an order on the Bread Builders this week, I just moved and all my books are stored away, so maybe it is time for new knowledge. I would love to keep in touch and discuss and learn more, thanks!

I’m glad to hear you’re finding better success! Try not to beat yourself up about the seams and the scoring. These are skills that you’ll get better at in time. But it sounds to me like you’re honing in on a process that will work well for you. Keep at it and you’ll get there.

And you’re definitely gonna love The Bread Builders. Seriously such a great book! You’ll learn a ton for sure. Definitely keep in touch, and let me know if you have any more questions or comments. I’m always happy to talk shop.

Hi Trevor! I made your Champlain sourdough today and have 2 comments. First, the bread is super flavorful- I have a feeling this will be my go to bread once I get it down. Second, like other bakers who’ve commented here, I ended up with very large holes in the center and tighter holes everywhere else, so from the looks of things I under proofed my dough. I think I know why: I ran out of time last night so the bread went from the proofing basket right to the fridge (and from the fridge to the oven the next day). I thought it would develop overnight in the fridge but I think that was a mistake.

One quick question- I think I read on here someplace that you generally use your starter 8-10 hours after it was fed? So when it’s nice and bubbly, right?

Hi Terri, I’m glad you like the recipe! It definitely sounds like yours was probably underproofed. And it sounds like you figured out the reasons yourself. The more you make the recipe the more you’ll home in on the correct proofing times for your particular circumstances.

Regarding the starter, yes — I typically bake with the starter when it is nice and bubbly (when I’m using a liquid starter) but before it has collapsed. I like to use it right as it just begins to recede a bit — it’ll have some dimples and valleys, but will still be far from a complete collapse. So usually anywhere from 8-12 hours is good. I tend towards 10-12 hours most often due to convenience of scheduling.

But just because that’s my preferred maturity doesn’t mean that it’s the only way. I still often use younger starter (4-6 hours) when I’m looking for certain characteristics from my bread, or because I’m changing up my schedule. So long as your starter is active and healthy it’s generally useful anywhere from 4-14 hours. If you go less than that then your risk of a slow rising or inactive dough increases, and if you go beyond that then your risk of an acidic and/or sluggish starter increases. To my mind, 8-12 hours is generally the sweet spot (depending on a range of conditions, of course). I hope that helps. Good luck with your next bake!

Hey Ya’all… FYI… I just traded 3 loaves of Champlain Sourdough bread for 1 bushel of peaches… a lot a work on my part but the peaches will be VERY delicious too… I just bought a loaf of sourdough bread from an “Artisan Bread” outfit that sells tons of bread and this Champlain bread was hands down better… I am tickled pink with this recipe…. I think the rye flour makes a big difference in the outcome of the bread… thanks for a GREAT RECIPE!!

That’s great Paul! I’m glad to see you’re getting some real world value from this recipe! Isn’t it great when you know you don’t have to rely on the local bakeries in order to have great bread? And I agree — rye is great! I love rye and put it in many of my breads. And when you combine it in the right ratio with spelt is just becomes irresistible (to me at least). Anyway, enjoy your peaches!

Hello Trevor, I am always crazy when I see your bread pictures on Instagram!
I often make bread with dry or fresh yeast, but I would like to make Sourdough bread.
Just a little advice on how to make a good starter.
I know how to do, but for me it is not easy here.
In fact, I am french (so Ilove bread), and I live in south India (so I miss good bread).
Weather is very hot and it rarely go below 30 ° C and 70% humidity.
Thank you. Warm regards.
Patrick

Hi Patrick, there are so many different ways to make a good sourdough starter. I have yet to find one method that definitively makes a better starter than other methods. So, since they all seem to make good starters — my advice is to start with one of the simple methods using just water and flour. The best tutorial I’ve found for making this kind of starter is over at theperfectloaf.com. It’s simple, effective and beautifully photographed . . .

1) Don’t be too clean when you first make it. Remember, starters are built from the microbiota found in the ingredients and in the environment. Of course, you want to practice cleanliness when your starter is up and running and you’re baking with it, but when you first make it having dirty hands can only help. I’ve made a ton of starters, and every starter I created under sanitized conditions was bland and flavorless.

2) Be patient. Too many bakers think they’re gonna have a starter ready to go in just 5 days. While it can certainly be done, that’s more the exception than the rule. And even if you do get a starter that can raise bread after 5 days, it will still mature in flavor over the next few weeks to months. While I’ve created starters that could make bread after just 5 days, I’ve never created a starter that can make good bread after just 5 days. I’m sure there are folks out there who have, but I’ve haven’t been so fortunate. In my experience, it typically takes a couple weeks to get a starter that’s not just strong enough to raise bread, but also developed enough to make tasty bread.

My bread finally looks like yours, and the flavour is simply delicious. It was trial and error with mixed results. I think I have the “feel” for it now.

Success however has come with finding good quality, unbleached organic flour. Here in Australia we have some great flour options and the price is good too. I am also lucky enough to have a steam oven. All these factors, plus your incredible tutorials mean that I will never have to buy bread again.

That’s great to hear Dotty! Quality flour is such an important thing. And like you say, so much of successful baking eventually just comes down to trial and error. I’m happy to hear things are working out for you! Cheers!

I’ve baked this recipe twice now; what a delight it is to eat! Delicious! I learned everything I needed to know to bake it from your site and excellent videos, and a little help from The Fresh Loaf. Thank you so much for sharing your art with us!

Hi Shelley, hydration refers to the ratio of water to flour, by weight. So a recipe that’s 70% hydration will have 70 grams of water for every 100 grams of flour. Essentially, it’s just part of the Baker’s Percentage system, where every ingredient is weighed as a percentage of the total flour in the recipe. So something like “2% salt” means 2 grams of salt for every 100g of flour. I hope that helps!

Hi Trevor – watching a video on youtube I discovered your blog. What an absolut phantastic amount
of vital information – reading through all the questions and comments I learned more than ever before
and lots of things are becoming clearer, especially when it comes to feeding shedules.

I want to try and bake this great looking bread and was wondering if at all I could use my spiral mixer
to knead the dough but assume due to the already overnight developed dough that is a no go, right ?

Watching your videos I am anyway thinking I should sell my mixer and go back to the old methods
that were used back in time so that I get a better feeling for the dough and development of the dough.

This method of mixing can be a bit risky if using a machine to mix the dough. The problem is that the overnight rest allows the gluten to fully develop — that means that it doesn’t take much to overmix it the next day. Even by hand you need to be a bit careful when working in the starter, but it can be especially difficult when using a mixer.

That said, I know of at least a couple folks who tried this method using their KitchenAid and the results came out just fine. The trick was to be observant, keep the speed on low, and use a stop/start method so that when the dough was beginning to tighten or tear they would stop the mixer, let it sit and relax a few minutes, then start again — just until the starter was fully incorporated and no more. Now, a spiral mixer is much more effective than a KitchenAid — so I can’t say whether the same technique will work or not. The best thing to do is just experiment to find out.

As far as hand mixing, there’s definitely much to be gained by working the dough with your hands. Baking is a feel-based craft, and the best way to learn the dough is by feeling it through all its stages — including the mix. You’ll begin to pick up on many subtleties that you would otherwise miss while the dough is running in the mixer. But there’s certainly nothing wrong with using a mixer — the vast majority of professional bakers do so. Again however, as far as this technique goes it may not be well suited to machine mixers. You’ll just have to try it and see. Be sure to let me know how it turns out.

Hi Trevor, thanks ever so much for taking the time to answer my questions so
detailed.
I have in the meantime baked your bread and decided to give the hand kneading
technique a try and it was pretty easy following your video. However as many over
here we are struggling to get the hydration level right over here with our different
flour so next time i have to adjust by adding less water.
The flavour of the bread is great but I didn’t achieve the kind of open crumb shown
in your video but I know that most likely the reason for that is my starter which
probably wasn’t active enough – I have 3 time activated it with a ratio of 1/5/5
@ 80 ° Fahrenheit but reading through a few articles on the web I think that maybe
a ration of 5/5/5 would help to get it more active. There I amasking myself a lot
what really the best way is to do despite all the info.

However it’s a learing process but surely I’ll keep on trying to improve.

I recently made a 100% Spelt Sourdough loaf (from Breadtopia) that came out fantastic, and will next do a combo of Spelt and Kamut. I plan on incorporating your techniques that you show in this vid and see how it comes out. I also have a grain mill and grind my own flour fresh prior to baking, after letting it sit for a few hours to cool off from milling. Slowly I’m getting better using home milled flour with a goal of minimizing if not eliminating store bought flour. The only grain I’ve used that had disappointing results was Einkorn, and I suspect it’s a matter of more practice.

Anyway, sincere thanks for your willingness to share your expertise and am looking forward to experimenting with the techniques you demonstrate.

Thanks! I’m glad you’ve been enjoying my site! I hope you have some good success with this method, but let me provide a bit of caution — this may not be the best method for high percentage spelt breads. One of the purposes of this method is to increase extensibility of the dough, but spelt is already incredibly extensible on its own. A long overnight rest might make the dough overly slack. So unless you plan on baking the loaf in a pan, this may not be the best method for use on your spelt loaves. That said, I’m speaking strictly from theory here — the only true way to know for sure is to try it out and see how it goes. Be sure and let me know how it turns out.

Hi Trevor, love your site!
I’m very intrigued with the way you make your bread.
I’ve a question: Is it possible to do the pre-mix without putting it in a the fridge? If so how long should I wait before I add the starter?

Hi Trevor,
I’ve been baking bread from 5 years ago and they’ve been never a good bread with a lot of air bubbles and smoothness inside and a good crunch outside. BUT recently I tried your instructions and reciepes of Sourdough breads and the result is very good. I thank you in advance first for all your help and efforts. I just have 2 questions :

1. When baking bread with sourdough gives good results BUT the bread loses its freshness very fast. When it comes out of the oven it must be used very fast otherwise after a couple of hours it will be like a bread which was baked some days before. In general breads from the stores remains fresh for some days at least. What is the problem?
2. Is there any rule to add seeds to the dough? How much seed should be added? How does it effect to the wetness and how should we calculate the amount of water?

I hope I get an answer soon from you.
Thanks again and regards from Norway 🙂

I just have to tell you, after the last few months of trying various sourdough recipes with varying degrees of success I found your blog & made your Champlain sourdough. Oh my! It has been our best yet, I’m sure I still have a lot to improve on but wow was this bread good! Thank you for sharing your technique:)

Planning to make Champlain SD tonite/tomorrow and as I follow your detailed directions, one detail seems missing…..Once i put the dough into the banneton, how long should it proof? It seems that it’s a RT proof for this final one as you don’t mention fridge again….but is it two hours or until it rises a certain percentage (more or less)? Hope you can get to this question. Thanks so much!

Hey Flo, I know this isn’t getting to you in time, but this one usually takes 2-4 hours during the final proof for me. Proof times will depend upon many factors (starter strength, flour, surface tension, temperature, etc.) so it’s really always just a matter of suggestion rather than rule. Each baker must adjust as necessary.

That said, when in doubt just follow the finger poke test. The finger poke test isn’t foolproof — there are many occasions where it is not the best judge of when to bake. But if you’re totally lost, it’s a good starting point.

Ultimately, the best way to judge degree of proof is through experience baking the same dough over and over. That’s how the pro’s do it, and that’s why they are so accurate. Different doughs proof differently. So if you bake a different dough every time you’ll never be able to figure out the pattern. Pro’s bake the same doughs day after day, year after year — and so they learn by trial and error just what to look for in each specific dough when judging whether it’s ready or not. I hope that helps.

Hey I just wanted to give a tip to all the working people out there on how to manage their starter because it took me forever to figure out how to manage mine. And yes it takes weeks to get a really tasty good starter. And yes any method will work. Mine taste like awesome San Francisco Sourdough I’m guessing because I live in the Bay Area.

I keep mine in a jar in the fridge. When I’m ready to bake bread I take a tiny bit out and put it in another jar and refresh this tiny bit. The next morning or evening I take out half from the new jar and put the discard half into the original jar and refresh at the bit left over in the new jar again. I repeat this process until it’s ready.

Every so often I bake either waffles or banana bread or pita bread or scones using the recipes on the wild yeast blog. Her recipes use copious amounts of sourdough. Like 400 grams at a shot and it doesn’t matter if the starter is 3 weeks old or more.

I love your site and learning a lot from you!
Just a quick question. What brand flour do you use? I live in Edmonton and trying to find local flour, however; cannot find any high protein white flour yet. Have been using AP flour and some bread flour(from bulk barn) but wanna get bulk quantity if I can

Thanks for making these videos! They’re a big help. I tried this method yesterday and had a couple issues and maybe you can point me in the right direction. I use a hard red wheat from Central Milling Company with malted barely for my “mile high” sourdough. Would the ratios still be the same if I’m not adding the whole wheat like you do? I wound up making a very wet dough that was hard to handle and shape. I live in Denver so I’m used to adjusting my baking temperature and strategy due to the dryness and altitude, but I felt like I wasn’t using enough flour. Also, normally, I’ve been adding all of my dough, starter, and water together the night before. Letting it do it’s thing for about 11 hours or more then I add the salt and start the fold and rest process. Are there any issues with this method? I know I’ve only tried your method once so I’m no expert at it, but it wasn’t as flavorful or sour as when I add my starter earlier from what I tasted. Please, impart your knowledge and wisdom upon me!

Hey trevor,
Couple questions: i notice when I add the starter then knead the dough, it doesn’t look as tight as yours. It actually starts to become a little soupy and sticky. This is just after a couple minutes max. So, I let it rest for 10-15 and knead it again for a few minutes. Have you experienced this? What am I doing wrong? I try to mimmick your kneading techniques but my dough looks a lot different than yours

Also, when I actually bake it, I get great oven spring, crumb is super soft but it’s not that open.do you think this could be from my weird mixing and kneading?

Update: I switched to your stiff dough recipe. I had an inclination that I was being too rough, specifically kneading. After reading through the article, I learned that I was.. Also, I was proofing all my loafs in the fridge due to my schedule and I started using a tea towel in my baneton, which helped in the rise. Lastly, I was over proofing my loafs in the bulk fermentation stage, and the bench rest. I tweaked all these and the stuff dough turned out more airy than the Champlain recipe.

I switched recipes hoping that the doughs different development stages would be more transparent and they were: Kneading showed me signs more clearly(I did tear it, but only once or twice), bulk, folds, shaping etc. great new baker recipe. Still got some practicing to do. Specifically not over kneading and being more gentle in all stages. I wouldn’t say I’m being a brute, but I see how I could be better. I figured I’d stay with this recipe until I get it down and am consistent with it.

Dear Trevor, I ‘ve found accidentally your video and description. Thank you for willing to share this knowledge. In just a couple of minutes I learned what I am doing wrong.
I wanted to see other stuff too, ie how is your starter, how do you take care of him/her? ( Sorry, I really don’t know whether it’s a he or she). You put some links on your description, it’s true, but could I ask you, when you have some time to spend, to make a search button here, and/or make a sort of recipe or description scroll area.
This could help us to get the most out of all your experience you want to share with us.
Anyway, thank you for your patient description and passion.

Hey Trevor, just wanted to say that Ive somewhat rigourously try to follow yr Champlain recipe and instructions for a while, and lo and behold, last one came out pretty nice ! Turned out my starter needed a real boost, and MOST OF ALL, it was down to fingerspitz-gefuhl and improved benchwork. So many nuances to this game, your site and work really opened it up for me. The videos helps enourmously as studies of handicraft, and your in-depth texts really puts one on the right track to evolve as an amateur artisan. I dont really have a question right now, just a big shout-out and thanks !

Hi there! My second sourdough and it turned out to be looking so good ! I need more practice to get the more open crumb though. Thanks for the long write up of this wonderful recipe ! I m going to try more recipes now !