Sadistic means you like hurting people. God doesnt like hurting people so he sent jesus so no one would have to be sent to hell to burn and suffer for eternity in the lake of fire.

You seem to be forgetting that God created that hell, and created the rules that mean almost everyone will be condemned to suffer there for all eternity. He also has the power to destroy hell and free everyone there, but chooses not to.

So yeah, sadistic. We are lucky he it's all imaginary.

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Sadistic means you like hurting people. God doesnt like hurting people so he sent jesus so no one would have to be sent to hell to burn and suffer for eternity in the lake of fire.

You seem to be forgetting that God created that hell, and created the rules that mean almost everyone will be condemned to suffer there for all eternity. He also has the power to destroy hell and free everyone there, but chooses not to.

So yeah, sadistic. We are lucky he it's all imaginary.

Almost everyone condemned? Are you one of the atheists who bemoan being surrounded by Christians?

Christians only make up about 30% of the world's population. Right off the top that means 70% are going to hell. Of that 30%...

Anyone who has had premarital sex is going to hell. Fornicators.Anyone who lusts after someone to whom he is not married is going to hell. Adulterer.Anyone who divorces and marries again is going to hell. Adulterer. As are their children, their children's children, and so on down to the 10th generation.Any Christians who pray to Mary or saints, not God directly, are going to hell. Idolators.

Additionally...Anyone who has ever said the God's name in vain will go to hell.Anyone who works on Sunday will go to hell.Anyone who is homosexual will go to hell.Anyone who is handicapped will go to hell.Anyone who is rich will go to hell.

And so, so many more. According to the bible at least 99% of mankind is damned. So yeah, almost everyone.

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"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

You really just don't understand the good news, it seems. Jesus died for sin. When you accept Jesus as Lord and repent you are a new creation and your sins are completely covered. You can't look at bible verses in isolation - look at the whole story.

Does this mean that I can do all the meanest, despicable, unspeakably wicked things, murder and torture millions, commit genocide and/or ethnic cleansing and then "accept" Jesus and I will be clean as a whistle, all packed for life of comfort in heaven?

I think that idea is despicable as long as the opposite is true...that the kindly old Buddhist, for example, who literally never hurt a fly and strove daily to be the best person he could be, ends up damned for eternity simply because he felt that his path made more sense to him than the Christian one.

And what, even, of the self-identifying "Christians" who were raised with a vague idea of Biblegod, and go to church at Christmas & Easter, without really giving much thought to religion beyond checking off the right box when filling out forms. I'd say that most people I have met throughout my life were Christian, but only a fairly small percentage were really INTO it. Most seem to be Deists who choose to pay homage to the idea of God they are most familiar with, but will admit that they think there are many valid paths. Would you say that these people are saved? They are certainly not "born again"...Would you say it makes sense to imagine them in hell?

As long as I can look around me and see good and deserving people who do not fit the description of "saved" as per the Bible, and imagine that God would see fit to damn them, I cannot get excited about the handful who somehow get the message--including rapists, murderers and so forth--being "wiped clean of sin".

Hitler in heaven and me in hell. I'm suffering for all eternity because I didn't believe but Hitler is up there enjoying the good eternal life. Of course this is all hypothetical because I think the chances of Hitler repenting are probably quite slim.

On one hand you've got somebody who's a mass murdering f**k head and then me, I got in a fight when I was 11 and lost and the other guy started it...that's about it.

So obviously it doesn't seem right. I mean,I don't believe in heaven so obviously I'm not scared of going to hell or anything like that, just as I'm sure you're not scared of Muslim hell. But the idea of somebody who is incredibly sick minded could get an eternal life in heaven for repenting for his sins whilst somebody who is good to others and doesn't do anything bad but does not accept Jesus Christ as their saviour is to get an eternity in hell.

[edit]I wonder, how do you feel about Islamic hell? You could be a perfectly righteous Christian, but that might not save you if it is the Muslims who got it right. How would you feel about your attachment to Christ? How would you feel if Osama Bin Laden was considered a true Muslim in the eyes of Allah and ascended to heaven? Yet, you a righteous Christian and me a moral atheist are to spend an eternity of pain and suffering for not accepting Islam?

« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 07:20:26 AM by Seppuku »

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“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto MusashiWarning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Yes, that's scriptural. All non-Christians are condemned ("no one comes to the father but by me"). As Joe has already pointed out, this means that, even if you're talking only about the people who are alive today, that's a minimum of 72% of the human population that is damned. (Seven billion people on the planet, five billion of whom are not Christians.)

Further, some Christians are also condemned ("not everyone calling on me 'lord, lord' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"). Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Yahweh actually exists and that the bible is his revealed word, there's no agreement -- not by a long shot -- on which Christians are also going to be damned. And even if you assume it's only one out of every five (probably a generous estimate, considering everything that scripture says), that's another four hundred million people condemned, which brings the total damnation rate to 77% of the human population.

If you were testing a treatment for cancer, and that treatment resulted in three out of every four of the test subjects dying from cancer, you would not talk about the treatment's "one in four success rate". Rather, you would consider the treatment an abysmal failure, and if you couldn't figure out any way to improve the treatment to make it more successful, you would probably shelve it in favor of researching more promising therapies.

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Are you one of the atheists who bemoan being surrounded by Christians?

That's not pertinent to the Christians' doctrine of salvation.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

You really just don't understand the good news, it seems. Jesus died for sin.

When you accept Jesus as Lord and repent you are a new creation and your sins are completely covered.

You can't look at bible verses in isolation - look at the whole story.

and again we get different Christian versions of what their god "really" meant. In your own bible, it says that some people will never be allowed to accept JC or have their sins removed. We get that right from JC and from Paul. Then, we have that lovely story, you know, Revelation, that has that all the people who don't accept this god and JC are killed. Then JC gets to reign over all of those who have acceptd him on earth for an "aeon" usually translated as a thousand years. But then this god *must* release the "beast" again, and let him corrupt more people. These corrupted people are then damned no change of having their "sins" covered.

Sorry, MM, but many of us, including me, have read your whole bible and we know that your claims of "context" are the usual attempts of a Christian to declare only his version is the "right" one.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Yes, that's scriptural. All non-Christians are condemned ("no one comes to the father but by me"). As Joe has already pointed out, this means that, even if you're talking only about the people who are alive today, that's a minimum of 72% of the human population that is damned. (Seven billion people on the planet, five billion of whom are not Christians.)

Seven billion people with 72% having the chance of hell damnation is quite a lot of people. But the way I've always heard it is that all people who have ever lived also have the possibility of going to hell. That boosts the numbers of people going to hell by quite a bit, around 106 billion.[1]

Seven billion people with 72% having the chance of hell damnation is quite a lot of people. But the way I've always heard it is that all people who have ever lived also have the possibility of going to hell. That boosts the numbers of people going to hell by quite a bit, around 106 billion.[1]

Not sure if it is in the scriptures, but Christians tell me all the time that babies and kids who die get into heaven automatically. I've heard different cut-off ages, ranging from 2 to 12. If God's real cut off is 7 and 3 months, it must really suck to die at 7 and 4 months and spend eternity in hell. I mean, if only the drought or the war or the disease had come earlier, those little souls could have spent an eternity in a celestial playground, instead of a lake of fire.

On the other hand, if this is the case, I really don't understand why Christians aren't PUSHING abortions. I mean, all those little innocent souls who don't get a chance to sin, get an automatic eternal afterlife.

Not sure if it is in the scriptures, but Christians tell me all the time that babies and kids who die get into heaven automatically. I've heard different cut-off ages, ranging from 2 to 12. If God's real cut off is 7 and 3 months, it must really suck to die at 7 and 4 months and spend eternity in hell. I mean, if only the drought or the war or the disease had come earlier, those little souls could have spent an eternity in a celestial playground, instead of a lake of fire.

Yea, I can't think off the top of my head any verse that says children are automatically saved. I was never a Catholic and I'm sure those that are/were can give more info, but I thought in their teachings that children are saved.

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On the other hand, if this is the case, I really don't understand why Christians aren't PUSHING abortions. I mean, all those little innocent souls who don't get a chance to sin, get an automatic eternal afterlife.

If you were testing a treatment for cancer, and that treatment resulted in three out of every four of the test subjects dying from cancer, you would not talk about the treatment's "one in four success rate".

And you wouldn't call it the "Good news" either.

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The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

there is absolutely nothing in the bible that excuses children or babes from hell. The usual excuse is some vague claims about an age of responsiblity, but that's in the OT, which most Christians only mention if they think it supports them, and ignore desperately when they don't like it. St. Augustine is the big one for Catholics in saying that children are damned, no ifs ands or buts. Catholics really hate when you dare bring this pronouncement from him up since they run to him for all sorts of other "truths" that aren't nearly so vile. The RCC had to quickly invent a less bad part of hell for them and "virtuous pagans", because those they wanted to convert found their religion disgusting.

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

Not sure if it is in the scriptures, but Christians tell me all the time that babies and kids who die get into heaven automatically. I've heard different cut-off ages, ranging from 2 to 12. If God's real cut off is 7 and 3 months, it must really suck to die at 7 and 4 months and spend eternity in hell. I mean, if only the drought or the war or the disease had come earlier, those little souls could have spent an eternity in a celestial playground, instead of a lake of fire.

On the other hand, if this is the case, I really don't understand why Christians aren't PUSHING abortions. I mean, all those little innocent souls who don't get a chance to sin, get an automatic eternal afterlife.

Indeed, any Christian who truly believes the teachings of their holy book should logically have no desire to bring any more children into this world. According to the Bible, they have automatically sealed the child's fate.

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"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).