On 6/11/2009 Duncan wrote:>I've bought stuff from both Rock Hardware and Climbing Anchors and would>efinitely do so again. Both Steve's provide outstanding service and sell>great products. I would also never buy shoes online. However, when it>comes to cams I have absolutely no qualms going overseas. It's abundantly>clear that someone is charging too much. If it's not the retailer then>it must be either the distributor or manufacturer.
Exactly. The same things happen with CD, clothing, shoes, DVDs, etc. In fact the region encoding in DVDs has nothing to do with piracy and everything to do with PRICE DISCRIMINATION. It allows them to charge rich Australians and Europeans more than Africans and Americans.

>The manufacturer can>afford to sell their equipment for cheaper - otherwise it wouldn't be so>cheap in the US/Europe. So, by the process of deduction...
Don't discount the manufacturers being part of the problem. They can restrict the authorised importorters and control the price. It goes back to the price discrimination argument.

The solution to this as consumers is to encourage parallel importing. That means US mail orders or encouraging retails to parallel import.

On 6/11/2009 patto wrote:>The solution to this as consumers is to encourage parallel importing.> That means US mail orders or encouraging retails to parallel import.

How do you see parallel importing fitting with consumer markets? Using USA as an example, and from what you indicate, it would seem to me that the US mail order brigade probably make most of their sales to everywhere else except their home-grown local market due local taxes etc?
It would be ironic if our retailers were to get the same subsidy(?) and end up mailing stuff back to the USA or elsewhere!

Sea to Summit's prices on Black Diamond had been fairly unique over the past 12 months. When the dollar crashed Black Diamond prices did not soar, like some other brands, in fact some items had price reductions.

Our pricing is defined for a 12 month period, as is the norm. Unfortunately due to the nature of importing and holding stock we can't change an items price immediately when the dollar improves. However, I'm listening and take what people say on board and will provide better prices when and where possible for sure.

Please keep in mind is that Australia is pretty isolated, so shipping costs here are high. Our local duty rates on import are also high, this adds to cost and is unavoidable.

I'd like to offer some other food for thought;

- as a distributor we support your local magazines with advertizing and product give aways. Without this stable income these mags that we all enjoy would struggle to survive, give ways add value.
- we support local climbers in their pursuits; enriching the sport.
- we also support local events and comps that in turn grow our sport and enrich our community. The amount that we contributed to World Youth Champs for example was huge!
- we support groups like Leave No Trace who work to protect the wilderness locations that we frequent.
- we cover your warranty issues.

If anyone has any constructive feedback or queries feel free to shoot me an email: seth@seatosummit.com.au

I can't afford to pay more than double the price for climbing gear here.

A small case in point:

BD Oz biners are $AUD 8.90 in the US, they're $AUD18 on the Rock Hardware site.

Even with postage if I buy 20 of them I’m way out in front.

Don’t ask us to buy Aussie for the sake of buying Aussie: that is jingoistic nonsense in a world where trade is increasingly being freed up.

If I can buy gear cheaply and satisfactorily overseas I will. I am not interested in subsidising uncompetitive, small businesses that want to keep wholesale prices secret.

Local climbing retailers should use forums like this as evidence to show wholesalers just how ripped off the climbing community feels about local prices and just how much business retailers/wholesalers are losing to overseas purchases.

A small cut in prices charged by wholesalers passed on down the line could make a huge difference to sales, especially on low-volume items.

If and when the Aussie dollar collapses making local prices seem less exorbitant, that's when I'll buy.

Until then my hard-earned cash is going overseas if the local prices are significantly higher.

On 6/11/2009 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>How do you see parallel importing fitting with consumer markets? Using>USA as an example, and from what you indicate, it would seem to me that>the US mail order brigade probably make most of their sales to everywhere>else except their home-grown local market due local taxes etc?>It would be ironic if our retailers were to get the same subsidy(?) and>end up mailing stuff back to the USA or elsewhere!

Many manufacuturers have agreements with American online stores NOT to export to Australia. This is bypassed by people getting the gear delivered to friends in the US/Canada who then remail it to Australia as 'personal mail'. Obviously this would INCLUDE the extra taxes charged to local American customers. It is still much much cheaper.

On 6/11/2009 nmonteith wrote:>>Many manufacuturers have agreements with American online stores NOT to>export to Australia. This is bypassed by people getting the gear delivered>to friends in the US/Canada who then remail it to Australia as 'personal>mail'. Obviously this would INCLUDE the extra taxes charged to local American>customers. It is still much much cheaper.

Yep - or just using a commercial mail forwarder - don't even need friends ;)

Also, I wouldn't assume that buying in Australia will improve your position in a warranty claim. I have had no luck making warranty claims on faulty goods through Aussie distributors - they essentially told me to p*&s off - and the claim was on a pair of approach shoes that were recognised (in every other country) to have an inherent problem - people were making successful warranty claims right, left and centre on these shoes in the US.

However I have successfully made warranty claims on gear that fell apart that I bought online from Europe.

Seth, a remarkably reasonable response, given some of the things we've said in this thread. So, can you explain why Australian retailers pay more to get cams wholesale from you than us punters do to buy them online?

Welcome and thank you for your input into this thread. Okay now that the politeness is out of the way....

I'm sorry but much of what you have posted IS NOT an excuse for expensive domestic gear. Shipping costs should be close to negligible, come on we can often post individual cams for less! Defining your price for a 12 month period may be the norm but it is precisely the problem. In a competitive market such fixing of prices is not a luxury you can afford. The only reason you can get away with it is the lack of competition. In a competitive industry running stock part of the business and shouldn't significantly affect the end price.

The exchange rate is a side issue. Gear at least as long as I've been watching it has been significantly more expensive here, normally about double US prices dollar for dollar. For the last 5 years the AUS has hovered around 75-80c.

Now I understand you are not a charity. You are a monopoly importer. I expect you to charge as high prices as you can get away with. But please don't try to justify based on flimsy excuses. But, hey maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are naive and that BD is making the huge margins.

Your support for local media, events and groups is noble. But doesn't justify asking locals to pay 100% more on gear.

>However, I'm listening and>take what people say on board and will provide better prices when and where>possible for sure.

I somewhat have my doubts. However let met state that there is VERY significant about of overseas purchasing by consumers. Dropping your prices by 25% could very well increase revenue and profits. I would say at least 50% of my climbing peers have made their significant purchases overseas. I have a friend who just got a full rack and rope including C3s & C4s from Canada.

The fact is Australia is a rich country. Our consumers are willing to pay higher prices for goods. This is seen across the board in retail especially in clothing. Price discrimination across regions is nothing new. Its basic economics 101. But please don't rip us off and expect people like it.

I believe your comments best sum-up the views of the PRO buy OS brigade. Would this be a fair assumption? If so, I have a genuine offer for any of you. First in....

Please come and work for/with me for up to a week. Casual Award rates for this type of work is $20.03 per hour. I am prepared to walk a mile in your shoes, if you will walk a mile in mine. My challenge for you is to convince me that “price” alone is the single most important criteria when buying climbing gear. I want to know if this philosophy extends to all aspects of life for you.

I am so out of touch with the style of thinking in your posts, that I would like to hear your thoughts on how you would run your own successful small business. Do you believe a small business has the right to be profitable, expand and employ more people? I am interested in your views on Manufacturing, Fair Trade, Monopolies, Import Tariffs, Advertising, Wages, Philanthropy and Business Plans. I will share my vision for Rock Hardware, if you are willing to listen? Would you be prepared to share your dreams and aspirations for your own future, with me? There may be a few surprises for us both? Confidentiality of course!

Regards Steve.

PS for Mattjr. Not sure what Seth drives, however, for the record. I drive a Subaru Forrester. I am nearly 47 years old and have worked between 40 and 80 hours per week, for the last 30 years. I have worked hard for my car. I have also owned some pretty nasty cars in the past. We all have to crawl before we can walk. :-)

On 7/11/2009 Rock Climber wrote:>Garbie, Winston Smith or Patto,>>I believe your comments best sum-up the views of the PRO buy OS brigade.>Would this be a fair assumption?

no I'm PRO people buy in my shop, Steve! But (with cams at least) that ain't happening.

>If so, I have a genuine offer for any>of you. First in....>>Please come and work for/with me for up to a week.

Looks like Patto got in first!>>I am so out of touch with the style of thinking in your posts, that I>would like to hear your thoughts on how you would run your own successful>small business. Do you believe a small business has the right to be profitable,>expand and employ more people?

No, not a right. But I can imagine its tough going. Things are going against local retailers and the
biggest one seems to be the monopoly on distribution. If my main business was retailing this gear I'd
be on the phone to the States to try to get a better price, get together with some other independent
retailers, and put in a bulk order. I'd be the first on board if you're interested.

>I am interested in your views on Manufacturing,>Fair Trade, Monopolies, Import Tariffs, Advertising, Wages, Philanthropy>and Business Plans. I will share my vision for Rock Hardware, if you are>willing to listen? Would you be prepared to share your dreams and aspirations>for your own future, with me? There may be a few surprises for us both?>Confidentiality of course!
I'll drop in for a chat next time I'm down there.>

I completely understand where people are coming from in terms of price - Now that I live in the UK, DMM gear is at least half the price here than it is in Australia. I am a little shocked at how much things cost in Australia.

But, I think you guys also need to remember that when you purchase from overseas suppliers, DO NOT expect that your local retailer who stocks the same items are going to return it under warranty, as the warranty for your product is in the country where you purchased your Items.

We're all trying to stay afloat in this business, so why don't you keep the money in the country?

It used to annoy me so much when people would expect the importer of a certain items to replace/repair their gear under warranty, even though they didn't purchase from them- thus the company/supplier is losing money. I don't think it's very fair. I know you guys probably won't (and should hope not) be having issues with climbing gear in general, but when you purchase online, think about these things too!!

On 7/11/2009 racingtadpole wrote:>I am really quite enjoying this thread, but I dont see what relevance the>car a person drives has, that has a hint of tall poppy syndrome behind>it to me.>

That arose because of Mattjr's comment. I think his comment was more of a joke. I joked back about my lack of a car. I don't think any of us really car that much about each other's rides. As long as we can get to the crag then its all good! :-)

On 7/11/2009 patto wrote:>On 7/11/2009 racingtadpole wrote:>>I am really quite enjoying this thread, but I dont see what relevance>the>>car a person drives has, that has a hint of tall poppy syndrome behind>>it to me.>>>>That arose because of Mattjr's comment. I think his comment was more>of a joke. I joked back about my lack of a car. I don't think any of>us really car that much about each other's rides. As long as we can get>to the crag then its all good! :-)

Yes, it was a joke. You might see the humour in the fact that the guy working for the company that brings black diamond gear into australia has the surname 'Fortune'. It wasn't a direct attack at the guy or the company he works for.. just a joke!