Islamists and our OTHER enemy :

I am amazed at how little attention has been given to the horrobile violence instigated by terrorists in India ! Think about it : obviously
what the attackers had in mind was the killing ,or taking hostage of Americans , British and Jews- there should be no arguement there , because the terrorists themselves called for those mentioned people themselves at one point in the storming of the Taj Mahal Hotel.

The warfare and conflict carried on through today, with a lot of noise and some massacre . Targets included airports, railway stations,restaurants popular with tourists and foreigners , hospitals , police stations, and a Mumbai ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group called Chabad Lubavitch , I think it was . One Jewish victom was a rabbi from Brooklyn , USA. The last I heard the amount of dead rose to 160-something.

It’s been an all-around horror ,and the works of a very well-planned and sofisticated stratigy of warfare. It is not yet known just who is responsible, but as I heard it,a group called Deccan Mujahedin said they were responsible for the attack and they sent this message to the Indian media. They are a radical Islamic organization who have contacts with Al Qaeda , and maybe other prominate anti- American , anti-Indian groups too. JIHAD IS ALIVE AND REAL .

This event should be of concern for everyone here in this country ( and other countries who are on their “Infidel ” list ) . Is is glaringly significant, and we should all ask ourselves what is all about- ; what message does it bring, why? , and other such questions. Instead of reading the funnies, or watching “deal or No Deal ? ” they should be watching the news. People come home tired at night and want to relax after a hard day’s work, or they are busy paying attention to thier social and domestic interests, or thinking about what to buy for Christmas, BUT ...someway, somehow, they should develope some perspective on the Islamist jihad action around the world and what it means. But—-who do YOU know who even understands anything about it ?

There is an incredible amount of ignorance , both about what is really going on and the very nature of Islam. The ignorance of the “West ” is terrible, and worrisome to those who are tuned in to the reality of it all.

Many , I included,are concerned about the will of Europeans to defend themselves and their freedoms against Islamic determination and imposition. Look at the ultra-anglo-saxon, and classic country of England, who were once such an inspiring power in the world : Muslim ambassadors are out to intimidate this country, and force Sharia-like restrictions on Western liberties . That country and many others. Is this something to be afraid of ? You betcha !

After the Danish cartoon protests not a single newspaper in Briton printed these cartoons, and only one newspaper in America had the gumption to print these drawings. Nobody wants to say it, or admit it, but by being this way we are allowing ourselves to be intimidated and we are actually afraid of consequences . There is fear, and the people of this country don’t even understand that it’s there . By being silent they will tell you , they are just “showing respect ” to the Muslims.

So, in veiw of all this, what should we; you and I, be thinking or doing ? Anything; anything is better than just turning around and ignoring it . First, take an interest; read some books and watch the news. Speak up or/and join a group who are aware of the great threat that a religion-induced , ruthless, angry, fanatic, unflappably determined , hateing force like active radical Islamists means in our modern and free world. And quit defending those people who call you a sinful “unbeliever” , and an “Infidel ” .

It is time to understand that Islam, is indeed, our enemy , and the other one ? The other enemy is ignorance—; it will pave the way towards Muslim victory. They are counting on it . Lets look in the mirror and ask ourselves if we are amonst those who know enough to be able to defend ourselves .

I am amazed at how little attention has been given to the horrobile violence instigated by terrorists in India ! Think about it : obviously
what the attackers had in mind was the killing ,or taking hostage of Americans , British and Jews- there should be no arguement there , because the terrorists themselves called for those mentioned people themselves at one point in the storming of the Taj Mahal Hotel.

The warfare and conflict carried on through today, with a lot of noise and some massacre . Targets included airports, railway stations,restaurants popular with tourists and foreigners , hospitals , police stations, and a Mumbai ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group called Chabad Lubavitch , I think it was . One Jewish victom was a rabbi from Brooklyn , USA. The last I heard the amount of dead rose to 160-something.

It’s been an all-around horror ,and the works of a very well-planned and sofisticated stratigy of warfare. It is not yet known just who is responsible, but as I heard it,a group called Deccan Mujahedin said they were responsible for the attack and they sent this message to the Indian media. They are a radical Islamic organization who have contacts with Al Qaeda , and maybe other prominate anti- American , anti-Indian groups too. JIHAD IS ALIVE AND REAL .

This event should be of concern for everyone here in this country ( and other countries who are on their “Infidel ” list ) . Is is glaringly significant, and we should all ask ourselves what is all about- ; what message does it bring, why? , and other such questions. Instead of reading the funnies, or watching “deal or No Deal ? ” they should be watching the news. People come home tired at night and want to relax after a hard day’s work, or they are busy paying attention to thier social and domestic interests, or thinking about what to buy for Christmas, BUT ...someway, somehow, they should develope some perspective on the Islamist jihad action around the world and what it means. But—-who do YOU know who even understands anything about it ?

There is an incredible amount of ignorance , both about what is really going on and the very nature of Islam. The ignorance of the “West ” is terrible, and worrisome to those who are tuned in to the reality of it all.

Many , I included,are concerned about the will of Europeans to defend themselves and their freedoms against Islamic determination and imposition. Look at the ultra-anglo-saxon, and classic country of England, who were once such an inspiring power in the world : Muslim ambassadors are out to intimidate this country, and force Sharia-like restrictions on Western liberties . That country and many others. Is this something to be afraid of ? You betcha !

After the Danish cartoon protests not a single newspaper in Briton printed these cartoons, and only one newspaper in America had the gumption to print these drawings. Nobody wants to say it, or admit it, but by being this way we are allowing ourselves to be intimidated and we are actually afraid of consequences . There is fear, and the people of this country don’t even understand that it’s there . By being silent they will tell you , they are just “showing respect ” to the Muslims.

So, in veiw of all this, what should we; you and I, be thinking or doing ? Anything; anything is better than just turning around and ignoring it . First, take an interest; read some books and watch the news. Speak up or/and join a group who are aware of the great threat that a religion-induced , ruthless, angry, fanatic, unflappably determined , hateing force like active radical Islamists means in our modern and free world. And quit defending those people who call you a sinful “unbeliever” , and an “Infidel ” .

It is time to understand that Islam, is indeed, our enemy , and the other one ? The other enemy is ignorance—; it will pave the way towards Muslim victory. They are counting on it . Lets look in the mirror and ask ourselves if we are amonst those who know enough to be able to defend ourselves .

I’m amazed that there seems to be so little interest - really- is nobody concerned about these things ? I was hoping to be able to discuss this—I’m feeling a need to believe participants on this forum are NOT among those I spoke of when I talked about the “other enemy ” .

I hope also, I am not mistaken when I have been assuming posters here do understand by now how formidable and real the Muslim movement ; (that is radical Islamists ), is . Perhaps there are some here who are offended that I focus on Islam ? Come on - it IS a menacing reality, and it is international. We must have gotten over that touchiness by now !

I hope I am wrong when I imagine there is little or no concern here—please tell me there is actualy some understanding of the facts . If you disagree with what I said in that first post, tell me why. You know——this IS an important subject. It needs to be discussed.

Have you ever walked down the streets where you live, and wondered how many of the people you see have any notion of what’s going on ? The size and dimension of thier country’s enemies ? It is awful- they have no perspective . How are they going to learn ? I sincerely and adamantly believe it is a wise ,and even necessary ,thing to make that effort to promote understanding.

If I’m being over-concerned or too uptight about the subject, please tell me why. I do want to discuss this; it will be benificial to any participant here.

Or maybe we should ask Sam Harris to talk to us… he, without any doubt, would support me… Really : think about it .....what would he say ?

As someone who could be legally executed in a number of Muslim nations for leaving the faith, believe me Dee, I am personally invested in keeping Western tolerance safe from Islamic extremism in a way you will never be able to grasp. If you hadn’t convinced me that you’re an unreflective right-wing propagandist from right after I arrived here, I might feel more interested in talking about it.

I’m amazed that there seems to be so little interest - really-is nobody concerned about these things ?

Don’t be absurd. Of course we are all concerned.
Try changing your writing style and glance at your spell-checker once in a while, this could increase the number of responses to your posts.

Also, (and this is important) you probably want to stop being a hysterical dimwit.

Sander : your post is honest, and even though it is reprimanding , and it pains me, I appreciate your ” tips” .

So you see in my just mentioned post a “hysterical ” person ? May I ask that you examine, one or a few sentences, or statements at a time and point out where the “hysteria” is ? As I’ve said, somethings aren’t very important, some are important, some very important, and some extremely important . This is not an overstatement : we are not fighting two wars against terrorism. We are up against, and even unbeknownst to those who’s duty demands knowledge of this, another war - one that has been declared on us. By “us ” I mean Europe, America ,the West , and generaly speaking, the free world . Time to laugh ? If that is how you feel, you and others like you, only prove my assertions are true . I’m not “hysterical ” either—what’s wrong with having a little fire in your belly ? It’s a fire for injustice ! Why don’t you have it ? A person should feel that in his life for something , and it may as well be for the cause of freedom. And that’s what a fight against radical religious imposition is- a fight for freedom and a defence of our rights .Try it-it might be fun )

Whether I say these things indifferantly , or passionately , they are still valid and , yes, extremely important . As important as September 11th 2001 was . Ask yourself how many American citizens were aware that could happen or was impending . Remember how shocked and confused they were. For many this prompted a crash-course in radical Islam, and everything that stems from it such as Al Qaeda , the Taliban and so forth . For awhile this country was wallowing in outrage ,self-pity and indignation. Suddenly everyone; even kids, became patriots. After a month or two they closed thier hearts and minds to any more concern about all that. There were exceptions of course. But , for the mostpart, they couldn’t be bothered . Today it’s just a rusty dream for most citizens . And this is the very time they should develope some awareness, and be educated on the subject of Islamic wrath and “the West “. ( why do they always use that word ? That makes it sound so isolated from the rest of the world ). I understand ; you don’t have to tell me, how exaggerated and even ridiculous these statements might sound . But—to those who are focused, and informed on the subject, what I’m saying is bona fide actuality-it is a reality. And a threat; even a horrifying threat. The same way Nazi germany and thier crazed leader, Hitler was a threat . Hardly anyone took them seriously enough to believe it meant world - war two . ( is that wrongly put ? ) The word “ignorance” comes to mind again. Ignorance led to a horrible destruction and literaly , charred flesh. Are those words too strong for you ? It isn’t me talking you know-it’s the spoken or written words of writers and speakers a dozen times smarter than me .

Doesn’t it bother you that radical and militant Islam is the greatest threat to mankind since the last world war , and that the majority of the population is dumb and numb to the reality of this ? I think it should bother us . As a matter of fact it should more than bother us—it should inspire us to help bring an understanding of that reality to the sleeping multitudes .

If this isn’t a subject we should discuss here , what is ? Oh, I see——we, the Sam Harris fans and forum members, have made the subject of religion the springboard of thier choice of chatter ! Well, know something ? The subject I have been talking about is about religion too.

I am worried about my forgetfulness, to tell you the truth. It could be caused by lack of sleep. I also take a lot of medicine; maybe that has something to do with it . I write a word exactly the way it should be spelled one day , and the next day I spell it wrong. I will be writing and all of a sudden a word I have been speaking, writing ,and hearing all my life will stump me and I can’t remember how to spell it .I don’t know what to do about it . But I do remember the gist of anything I read, with some exceptions. That I am not a good speller does not mean that I am not a good thinker . And for a “dimwit ” I read a lot of books. I was trained in the feild of commercial art, but I am decidedly bookish .

Once again, please—this subject of religious, and cultural conflict in the world now deserves to be layed on the table , and examined.

As important as September 11th 2001 was ... Suddenly everyone; even kids, became patriots. After a month or two they closed thier hearts and minds to any more concern about all that.

I remember. And then I remember George Bush telling us to go shopping, and saying that he would violate the Geneva Convention, imprison people at will without regard to the courts or the constitution, tap my phone, give away no-bid contracts to cronies, and invade a country which had done nothing to us and had nothing to do with 9-11.

I do remember the feeling I had for our country following 911, Dee, and I remember that GW Bush then behaved like an international outlaw and made me ashamed of my country, and that is the most unforgiveable crime. Well, that and Katrina. Well, Katrina and the destruction of the economy with tax cuts and no regulation.

Well, he is just an awful man, but I am especially angry at the way in which he squandered a benignly patriotic feeling, a true love of country, following 9-11.

So I agree with you, Dee.

“I am one of the few people I know who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror.” Sam Harris October 17, 2005

Those who disparage Dee for the so-called “us/yhem”-mentality, should do well to remember that it is precisely because ISLAM teaches a hateful “us/them”-doctrine that it is dangerous.

Does this mean that we also must adopt an “us/them”-mentality?
Unfortunately, yes, to a certain extent.
A criminal forces upon the rest of society the necessity of acting/behaving in ways it rather would not (for example by depriving of an individual’s freedom), but such actions are not for that reason unjustified.

Well, he is just an awful man, but I am especially angry at the way in which he squandered a benignly patriotic feeling, a true love of country, following 9-11.

So I agree with you, Dee.

How I dearly wish that people would stop using these stupid phrases.

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious and any baboon with the mental faculties to wipe his own ass can sing the praises of his part of the jungle.

What deranged nonsense.

If you would have paid attention Teuchter, you would have noticed that most people around the world were as horrified by 9-11 as we here in the US.

Can we all, please oh please, just speak about civilization, human dignity and an open and just society without using these poisoned, old phrases like ‘love of country’?

I generally take your point about “the last refuge of scoundrels,” but my phrase “benign patriotism” was meant to suggest the kind of feeling expressed in Woody Guthrie’s “This Land is Your Land.” It neither denigrates other countries, nor overlooks the faults of this countries.

Shall we all sing along:

As I was walkin’ - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin’
But on the other side .... it didn’t say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

“I am one of the few people I know who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror.” Sam Harris October 17, 2005

Oh, say now mister, can’t you read
You got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can’t watch, no you can’t eat, you ain’t supposed to be here
And the sign says ‘You got to have a membership card to get inside’ –

originally recorded by The Five Man Electrical Band

Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

Those who disparage Dee for the so-called “us/yhem”-mentality, should do well to remember that it is precisely because ISLAM teaches a hateful “us/them”-doctrine that it is dangerous.

Does this mean that we also must adopt an “us/them”-mentality?
Unfortunately, yes, to a certain extent.
A criminal forces upon the rest of society the necessity of acting/behaving in ways it rather would not (for example by depriving of an individual’s freedom), but such actions are not for that reason unjustified.

You are, as usual, wrong. It does NOT require that we adopt an “us versus them” mentality, as this is exactly what extremists in any and every conflict between groups, whether religious, ethnic, social, racial, national, or social, seek to do. If you want to be as hateful and stupid as Islamist terrorists, that’s your problem. Don’t make it my problem.

Those who disparage Dee for the so-called “us/yhem”-mentality, should do well to remember that it is precisely because ISLAM teaches a hateful “us/them”-doctrine that it is dangerous.

Does this mean that we also must adopt an “us/them”-mentality?
Unfortunately, yes, to a certain extent.
A criminal forces upon the rest of society the necessity of acting/behaving in ways it rather would not (for example by depriving of an individual’s freedom), but such actions are not for that reason unjustified.

The Wajabi variety teaches that…mainstream moderate varieties of Islam don’t. You are foolish to form your view on Islam based on narrowing looking at a cross section of nutjobs in Jiddah and pretending that mainstream muslims buy into Zawahiri’s bullshit sophistry. Newsflash…they don’t. That’s why al Qaeda has been so crippled in the past few yrs. They attack mainstream muslims too often and claim it is justified because they are no longer “real muslims”. Guss who doesn’t see things that way…the mainstream muslim communities all across the middle east who hate al Qaeda every bit as much as you do if not more.

And this is the United States of America. The actions of this administration aren’t unjustified simply because we were attacked. They are unjustified because the administration is legally bound to uphold the backbone of our nation, the US Constitution, and all the rights it affords the ciizens who “elected” these public officials.

Maybe you should try like…reading about the nuances of the muslim communities and how they feel about the muslim/false muslim/infidel proposition Zawahiri won’t shut up about. You may…learn something. :o

You are, as usual, wrong. It does NOT require that we adopt an “us versus them” mentality, as this is exactly what extremists in any and every conflict between groups, whether religious, ethnic, social, racial, national, or social, seek to do. If you want to be as hateful and stupid as Islamist terrorists, that’s your problem. Don’t make it my problem.

I’d also like to note something taht most ppl here seem to not have figured out yet…the fact that groups like al Qaeda don’t define the Islamist community. Islamists aren’t terrorists by default. The Islamist community ranges from pretty moderate to radical in ideology to the very fringe groups who are radicals who happen to have no ideological opposition to violence against non-muslims. Those are the militants. Those are the ppl we should be worried about vis a vis terrorism. From a political perspective, we shoudl be worried about other Islamists though depending on the country we live in.

If we live in democracies or representative republics like the US/UK, we should politically oppose theocrats which Islamists are by definition. That doesn’t mean we should automatically engage in hateful acts against them or illustrate thoughtless, knee jerk reactions to what they say. Many of them are very nice ppl in reality…while others more towards the fringes aren’t. Let’s just eb careful not to conflate the term “islamist” with “terrorist” or “militant evil doer” etc just as we would be incredibly dishonest to conflate “muslim” with “al Qaeda” etc.

You are, as usual, wrong. It does NOT require that we adopt an “us versus them” mentality, as this is exactly what extremists in any and every conflict between groups, whether religious, ethnic, social, racial, national, or social, seek to do. If you want to be as hateful and stupid as Islamist terrorists, that’s your problem. Don’t make it my problem.

That is incredibly disengenuous Bruce. It simply isn’t true AT ALL. The foru was set up by Sam to give ppl a place to discuss various items of interest, specifically in the topics that the forums are divided into. He didn’t try to set it up as a place only for atheists or fans of his work. And this forum most certainly does NOT have an inherent us/them mentality. You may feel it does, but that is only because so many ppl here tend to disagree with your theology. But you are accusing us of behaving in a way akin to jumping on your back just for the sake of relieving our boredom. You are building a caricature of this forum as if it were full of ideologues, which it generally isn’t. You know damn well that atheists here don’t tend to agree on much of anything outside our lack of belief in a deity. You’ve seen Andrew and I argue over all sorts of political issues even though we are both liberal progressive types. You’ve seen lindajean and Andrew argue on a similar basis often. I was constantly arguing with matriculated01 earlier this year about various foreign policy perspectives and still argue with Dee and Billy and arildno and others on issues related to terrorism and foreign policy.

I spent no shortage of time arguing with that predatorhandshake moron before he fled from the forums with his tail between his legs. I’ve had heated discussions with Saul and Salt Creek as well. Notice I’m listing heated aguments that are between ATHEISTS here. And they range from scientific arguments, historical arguments, political arguments, economic arguments, social arguments, cultural arguments, and yes even religious arguments and debates on the nature of atheism itself. I also have argued with you and Champ and other theists on a variety of issues and agreed with you specifically on several issues.

No one here really lines up their posts with other atheists in order to attack theists. Some ppl attack them based on them being mindless pricks who have long lost the intellectual capacity to form coherent arguments and instead are reduced to the role of the grumpy jugglng jester, like Salt Creek. But there really isn’t much teaming up on theists purely on the basis of there being other atheists around to back them up. How many times have I seen an atheist and a theist arguing about something, and jumped in to agree with one of them about one point, and criticize them on another, independent of their beliefs? Tons. And that goes for most othr posters here too no doubt.

For example, many of us were talking about the definition of atheism in another thread, and Andrew and I were in 100% agreement on what the proper definition is. Then he said something stupid that I didn’t agree with and we argued about it along with other atheists joining the fray for hours. There are ppl here who go out of their way to attack any stupid ideas they see, with no bias towards religious beliefs or beliefs that are tied to Sam’s books. For another example, a much more obvious one in fact, this thread right in front of you has me and bigredfutbol, no doubt both fans of Sam and both atheists, aruging fervently against the notion that Sam has supported for a long time, being that

If ppl here saw itas an us/them type of thing, we wouldn’t be arguing about this stuff because ppl like me aned bigredfutbol and others who disagree with Billy and Dee and arildno’s “muslim=terrorist” type of ideology would note their common atheism and note the opportunity to progress the idea that religion causes all the worlds problems and be done with it. But we don’t. Lots of ppl here prolly don’t agree with Dee and Billy and arildno’s views on terrorism and foreign policy. And guess what, many of us don’t agree with Sam’s pov either.

This isn’t a Sam Harris fan club vs everyone else, nor is it an atheist vs theist forum. This is a forum where if you don’t come packing solid logic and evidence to back up a claim, you get taken to task for it and for good reason. This goes for anyone, be it theists or atheists, liberals or conservatives, young or old, forum newbies or grizzled ancients.

This very thread proves your assertion wrong. The fact that it would be incredibly convenient from an atheist’s perspective for me and bigredfutbol to just shut up and enjoy all the blame religion gets for terrorism, and yet we don’t, shows that you are wrong. And that goes for lots of the regular forumers here, not just me and bigred. And on your end,not jsut you either. You’ve argued some very strong positions while here too, even on the topic of religious views on occasion.