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I think what Mouse is trying to say is that scare tactics, which are used in schools in place of REAL sexual health education, aren't working. Scare tactics do not inform, they only scare and make people turn off and put it out of their minds.

What kids today urgently need is honest and frank discussion on the proper use of condoms and when they should be used. Most schools aren't allowed to use the C word, much less teach kids how to use them.

Ann

Aye. I was never taught how to put a condom on. HIV was NEVER discussed in the classroom. Seriously. Ever. We got worksheets on it that we filled out from copying shit from our books into it, it was turned in for homework, and never discussed - and that was the end of HIV discussion in highschool.

If teenagers don't think HIV is a big deal, that's because they have no fucking clue what's going on. And how are they supposed to know unless someone tells them? Someone who actually knows what they're talking about? My health teacher in 9th grade was one of the PE teachers, and he was an obvious bigoted, homophobic fuckwit who had no idea what he was talking about. Those are the sorts of people that are teaching kids these days.

EVERYTHING I knew then about HIV was from other gay friends of mine, and of course it's going to be flawed knowledge.

Or hell, some of them seemed to think it wasn't a problem at all. But I was 14, and none of my friends were older than 18 or so and that's what I was told. Of course, I knew better - and they did reiterate to use condoms a lot, but I was 14, and who the hell thinks they're going to get HIV at 14? Not using a condom when I knew better WAS my own fault - of course, I'm not really talking about myself here for most of this - just the fact that I've experienced what sort of education kids my age are getting on this stuff. If you knew how many kids I'd heard tell me that HIV can get through condoms anyway you'd realize that many gay teenagers probably think - "Well, neither of us have to worry about getting pregnant, and I'd get HIV whether I used a condom or not - so fuck it."

Edit:And buca45,

Maybe that shit was available to you, and maybe it's available to people who live in cities and places where actual gay communities exist, but it was never available here. I remember going into Philadelphia for the first time and being freaking floored by how many support groups and information packets and shit were in every doctor's office I was in. There is none of that here, I promise you. I don't know how many millions of people live in the rural, bum-fuck Pennsylvania valley that I live in, but none of them have access to any of it, and I suspect it's the same in similar areas across the country.

I just reread the original post about this and then the real reason came to me. In the gay world (and just realizing in the str8 world as well) it is the US vs THEM situation. By us, I refer to those of us who have been 'blessed' with this bug for years and are some what 'more mature'.....I will not fall into that mindset and call myself 'old'. 15+ years and poz and 48 yo I am looked at in the gay world as being an old queen who was at one time a slut.The younger generation who didn't have to face the epidemic when it was a death sentence wants nothing to do with us and believe it is something that will not affect their hot young bodies at all. For those who do think of it, they believe the hated and misleading ads that feature happy, hot young men who 'just pop a pill' and remain healthy and hot.

We didn't fail them, they, in alienating the older generation, failed themselves. I was cruising through the gay.com rooms recently and noticed they have divided up a cities rooms not only by location, but by age as well. Although there is no mention of how old you have to be to be in the "mature" rooms, I take it anyone over 30 qualifies as old.So take it from one mature hiv poz man, we didn't fail the younger generation at all. In their sick rationale that only old men from the 80's have AIDS, they have failed themselves and now their perfect hot little worlds fall down around them when they now become infected with that old mans disease. As much as I want to feel compassion for young, newly infected men, IMO, they did it to themselves by excluding us mature people from their lives.

Mouse, have to disagree with you on that point. As long as you have a TV and a computer, young people around the country are bombarded with the same information that is distributed in the bigger cities through pamphlets. Sorry, just cant accept that rationale.....

I just reread the original post about this and then the real reason came to me. In the gay world (and just realizing in the str8 world as well) it is the US vs THEM situation. By us, I refer to those of us who have been 'blessed' with this bug for years and are some what 'more mature'.....I will not fall into that mindset and call myself 'old'. 15+ years and poz and 48 yo I am looked at in the gay world as being an old queen who was at one time a slut.The younger generation who didn't have to face the epidemic when it was a death sentence wants nothing to do with us and believe it is something that will not affect their hot young bodies at all. For those who do think of it, they believe the hated and misleading ads that feature happy, hot young men who 'just pop a pill' and remain healthy and hot.We didn't fail them, they, in alienating the older generation, failed themselves. I was cruising through the gay.com rooms recently and noticed they have divided up a cities rooms not only by location, but by age as well. Although there is no mention of how old you have to be to be in the "mature" rooms, I take it anyone over 30 qualifies as old.So take it from one mature hiv poz man, we didn't fail the younger generation at all. In their sick rationale that only old men from the 80's have AIDS, they have failed themselves and now their perfect hot little worlds fall down around them when they now become infected with that old mans disease. As much as I want to feel compassion for young, newly infected men, IMO, they did it to themselves by excluding us mature people from their lives.

I just want to note, that I don't care if you've had HIV since the great extinction of the dinosaurs, it isn't a shoo-in for maturity.

Edit:I can't believe that you feel like you can just talk shit and generalize about an entire group of people. It's disturbing. With an attitude like that, I can't imagine how anyone would want to go to you for advice in the first place.

LOL sorry if you see it as a generalization, I see it and live it as a reality.I am not here to advise or counsel, I only offer my opinions based on my life experiences....and those experiences have been many and varied.

It's funny how you can make a comment like you did (dinosaurs) and still have the balls to say I generalize and am attempting to offer advice.Don't really have to add much more to your analogy of this topic do I?

LOL sorry if you see it as a generalization, I see it and live it as a reality.I am not here to advise or counsel, I only offer my opinions based on my life experiences....and those experiences have been many and varied.

It's funny how you can make a comment like you did (dinosaurs) and still have the balls to say I generalize and am attempting to offer advice.Don't really have to add much more to your analogy of this topic do I?

Since I was obviously stupid enough to get HIV in the first place, considering all the resources and information about prevention available to me as a 14-year-old kid in rural Pennsylvania, how could I possibly be intelligent enough to have this discussion with you? Why are you bothering?

You do generalize, buca. You've suggested that the only reason why people are still getting HIV is because they're not making hysterical phone calls to every gay person they know over the age of 30 for HIV information. I'm sorry, but in a realistic world, this idea is completely, utterly flawed. Especially when you take into consideration the age group that I've been discussing. Until I joined here, I didn't have any friends that were over 18 years old, and everyone in that age group were getting information from the same exact source that I'd been. What normal gay teenager has friends over the age of 30 (nevermind that's HIV+?)

Dude, seriously chill a bit!!You know nothing about me either, so lets just put the swords away and discuss this a bit more.I too come from a tiny town in the midwest. Growing up gay and a minority didn't exactly make me popular with the other queer kids in town so I did what I now realize was a wise thing.... I made friends with the town gay "dinosaurs" as I knew since they survived being gay in a rural setting, maybe just maybe, I would learn something from them. Had I been accepted into the clique of queer boys screaming around town, nothing good would have come of it. this too started for me around the age of 13. Although it was offered numerous times, sex wasn't the driving factor for me then. Something inside just allowed me to bypass that draw (hell yes i thought about it) and i just didn't act upon it. Common sense prevailed and I abstained until i graduated HS and moved to live with relatives in a large city. I made the choice to make older gays my friends and maybe I wasn't considered "normal" to do so, but I enjoyed their company and learned the ropes of 'gay survival' early. While other gay men my age were S-ing and F-ing everything that walked by, I finished my college education and found a man who would become my partner for the next 15 years. He too was older than I. Near the end of our relationship, thinking i had missed out on something by refusing sex at an early age, I decide that i wanted to have an open relationship. We did and within 2 years, I became infected. That ended the relationship and I faced what i had to and because of it, became a stronger person. Shortly after that break up, I met a man who was negative. Within the first ten minutes of our conversation, I blurted out "IM POSTIVE" and attempted to walk away. He stopped me and we talked for hours that night and here it is 10 years later that we are still together.Now the reason I tell you that story is so you will see that I am only a person as well, one who made mistakes and one who learned from them. I in no way am judging you for the decisions you made to get you to where you are now. What I am doing however, is to tell you what allowed me to have the outlook i do. I still have to stand by the statement I made saying I do not generalize, but rather make statements and have opinions based on my life.Again, regardless of your age, in this day of media exposure and the availability of the internet, there is no reason for people to put themselves at risk. I'm sorry you didn't have access to more info or even a "dinosaur" (or parent) to guide you through this time, but again the info is out there if you want it. IMO, if you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to learn the consequences BEFORE you do so, rural life or not. No need for hysterical calls (or in your case, maybe so) to get the info you needed to make that choice to have sex in the first place. Also, you say you had no friends over 18 but I am sure at some point you did come in contact with others who had sex and maybe became pregnant at an early age? Didn't that make an alarm sound off that maybe some information might be needed? In speaking with my nieces and nephews in that same small town that I grew up in, they all know what the story is and I hope will make decisions based on what they have learned. I certainly tell them all I know to to guide them that way.So, in reading my life story, I hope you get a sense that there were other ways to live. Again, I'm not passing judgement on you or calling you names...I'm only relating my opinions and how i came to this point in my life.

Well Mouse, I did so out of desperation as I wanted to fit in somewhere and those are the men who would have me. Like most other things in my life, since I was gay, my family didn't want to have anything to do with me, so my decisions were never questioned.

So now that you know that, do you understand where I am coming from? I seriously meant no harm to you....only giving my opinions. Isn't that what this forum is all about?

Did anyone here know that the brains (and specifically the frontal lobes... which control higher reasoning) of adolescents and young adults are fundamentally different from those of people over 25?

There is not yet full structural maturity of the brain until the mid-20s, which means that teenagers and people in their early 20s are more impulsive and less future-oriented in considering the conquences of their actions than they will be in ten years. This is patently obvious through obversation, but its roots are physiological.

I remember reading a scientist who was explaining how the brain doesn't actually become "adult" until around 25 and pointed out that Americans allow 16 year olds to drive, 18 year olds to vote, and 21 year olds to drink... but you have to be 25 to rent a car. And that regarding brain development, the only ones who had it right were the car rental people.

In short, expecting an 18 year old to use the judgement of a 35 year old is like expecting an 18 month old to speak in complex sentences. It's not going to happen. We work around the development of toddlers but expect 20 year olds to make decisions that they're not exactly fully equipped to make.

I don't know how the hell you managed it, buca, but I assure you that I would never have been allowed to hang out with older gay men. Or older people in general.

I also had this urge to not be the only gay kid I knew of, so I wound up with a bunch of gay kids my own age. Weird how that happens.

Word. My mom would have killed me if I was hanging out with older kids (especially if they were gay) when I was 16.

She's a sharp old broad and would have quickly put two and two together.

Once, when I was 19, a guy who went to high school with my mom came and spoke to our gay group thing in college. About how he was HIV+, ironically enough... I told my mom about talking to him afterwards, and her only question to me was, "Why in God's name were you hanging out with a 45 year old man?"

well, that type of answer just makes me want to ask again!!thanks for the welcome....i think ive found an outlet for my untapped mental energy.people, young or not, chose to listen or not....again, no placing blame or responsibility on anyone or anything.JMHO.........

A good subject for debate....IMO, every human has different capabilities.

This is true... but we all grow and develop in the same way. The human brain is incredibly, deeply, and richly complex... and there are an infinite number of ways we can express our capabilities.

That said, we do follow a few hard and fast rules when it comes to growing.

How many children under the age of 10 write symphonies? Mozart did it 250 years ago, and we're still talking about it. The fact is that really... I'm willing to bet that there is not an eight year old out there who is writing a symphony right now. And if there is one, people will be talking about him or her in 250 years time. Because it's so remarkable.

We don't expect children to do things that they're literally incapable of doing. We don't teach 12 year olds differential calculus, we don't expect 13 year olds to sucessfully raise a child, and we don't allow 14 year olds to drive.

Their brains are quite simply not ready for it... their brains are physically not yet mature enough to process, handle or utilize the necessary data in any way.

It's much the same with older teenagers and young adults. The law says they're adults, but to expect them to act like it is a completely different (and mythical) animal. They won't because, for the most part, they are as incapable of doing so as an eight year old is of writing a symphony.

The jury's still out on if it's life experience that rewires your brain or if it works the other way around (neural rewiring makes you make better decisions). It's probably both.

So, as long as we continue making babies, we'll have to expect them to act like damn fools from the ages of 16 to 25 or so. Because it is, quite literally natural for them to do so.

I don't have a link for it or anything, but I did read about some studies on brain development that jived with Benj's comments above. One of them was focusing on the tobacco industry's efforts to capitalize on those findings (as in get 'em before they're old enough to think it through properly).

a) People make mistakes. Nobody is perfect.b) You can't infect yourself. In sexual transmission, someone else is involved. It is a social encounter, and it is really incredibly simplistic to simply ask 'how did you let it happen?'

I don't have a link for it or anything, but I did read about some studies on brain development that jived with Benj's comments above. One of them was focusing on the tobacco industry's efforts to capitalize on those findings (as in get 'em before they're old enough to think it through properly).

I think I read that bit about the baccy, too!

I read my thing on brain development in my National Geographic.

National Geographic is like a well-photographed, well-written, thought-provoking version of POZ magazine for geeks.

a) People make mistakes. Nobody is perfect.b) You can't infect yourself. In sexual transmission, someone else is involved. It is a social encounter, and it is really incredibly simplistic to simply ask 'how did you let it happen?'

It wasn't asking how Mouse was exposed, that's a known. What I was asking was if he was raised up and knew how to prevent it how did it happen. Which inturn, he replied. Let's see, you forgot to mention mother to child, IV drug abuse, the use of factor 8, blood transfusions and occupational exposures. Sex is not the only way, in which one could have been infected, but as I said, that wasn't the question to Mouse. If you would have been on the forums long enough you would have known that, that wasn't what I was asking.

Education is going to stop HIV. The reality is many people knew all about HIV before they were infected. They knew about condoms. They knew friends and lovers that died. They became infected anyway, and I'm part of "they". Educating people about HIV and condoms is important but it won't solve the problem. It's not all about ignorance, it's about human nature.

Thank you for this. This makes a lot of sense to me. I have been thinking that a lot of so-called prevention campaigns do not actually change people's behavior, but rather create social or moral milieux in which people who do become infected can easily be blamed, disparaged, and written off. 'It was your own fault, you should have known better.'

The idea that people simply 'rationally' manage their sex lives is absurd and there are reems of research on the topic. This is not to say that people do not think about their health... it is just that more often than not, they forces involved in sexual decision making are not about one's health.

I think about this question of risk & blame all the time, since part of what HIV has meant for me is basically feeling like a complete idiot all the time for messing up and getting infected. So I spin mental scenarios to try to break down the problem and de-naturalize some of the common sense of sexual risk, HIV infection, and blame or moral condemnation. Here are two recent thoughts I have been working on:

a) We all engage in risky or dangerous activity very often. We may take steps to mitigate the risk involved. Driving on the freeway is quite dangerous. Thousands of people are seriously maimed or killed in car crashes every year. People abide by the law, wear seat belts, and so on to try to reduce risk and reduce harm. Yet suppose a man who is speeding, but not driving recklessly or anything, lets just say he is driving 75 in a 65 zone, gets into a car crash and becomes paralyzed. Is he blamed for this or felt to have morally failed? Or better yet, let's say that this guy who is going 75 °hits° another driver who is also going 75 and kills that driver. Everyone knows that car crashes happen on the freeway, but does is the victim of the car crash asked (as someone has asked here), How did you let it happen? The point of this thought experiment, which I am still working on, is to separate 'sex' from the question of 'risk' since sex colors people's perceptions so profoundly.

b) Two men engage in condomless receptive anal sex with different partners of unknown status. One comes away negative, the other positive. If the man who comes away negative is 'lucky' not to get HIV, what is the man who comes away positive? Just unlucky? And yet, from the standpoint of common sense judgment (remember that this is a thought experiment), the man who contracts HIV is the target of 'blame,' while the negative man is 'lucky.' To my mind, either both of these men are morally wrong and worthy of blame (regardless of HIV status) or else neither of them is.

I dunno if either of those make sense, and they don't necessarily address the question of HIV generations. But some of the discourse in this thread leads me to believe that even within (or perhaps especially within) the community of people who are HIV+, there are certain damaging moral preconceptions about the acts that can lead to HIV infection that are problematic and potentially even fallacious. But this is something I am still working out.

I've heard a lot of interesting points here! I do think there is a serious lack of education. Biggest obstacle is religion hands down. They aren't teaching ANYTHING with these Abstinence only programs, it's just Preaching ignorance and intolerance in my opinion!

Anyways, I remembered this article which was relevant to the original topic and thought I'd post it for those interested:

The Culture of Disease

By HARVEY FIERSTEIN

There are too many positive gay role models. In fighting the AIDS crisis over the last 20 years, we have done everything possible to dispel the negative connotations that come with having H.I.V. After all, it's been our brothers and sisters, our boyfriends and girlfriends, and ourselves who have been discriminated against because of a virus. So we produced advertising, created enlightenment programs, spent endless hours making certain that having AIDS or being H.I.V. positive was nothing to be ashamed of. We did a great job. Maybe too great a job. After all the effort exerted to convince the world that AIDS is not a gay disease, we now have a generation embracing AIDS as its gay birthright. According to figures just released by the Centers for Disease Control, the number of new AIDS cases rose last year for the first time in a decade. Four Americans now become infected with the disease every hour. Many of our young men see infection as a right of passage, an inevitable coming of age. I hear of them seeking the disease as entree into the cool, queer inner circle that being negative denies them.In our effort to remove the stigma of having AIDS, have we created a culture of disease? We all see the ads for H.I.V. drugs. They illustrate hot muscular men living life to the fullest thanks to modern science. Other ads show couples holding hands, sending the message that the road to true love and happiness is being H.I.V. positive. Is that message: You're going to be O.K.? (Which is terrific.) Or is it: You want to be special? Get AIDS. H.I.V. equals popularity and acceptance. (Which would be tragic.)My heart goes out to all who have the infection. But while I pledge my energies and resources to the fight for a cure, quality care and justice, I still think we need to examine what we're teaching our gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual and straight youth. In my opinion, the messages the drug companies are spreading are lies. The truth is that AIDS is not fun. It's not sexy or manageable. AIDS is a debilitating, deforming, terminal and incurable disease. H.I.V. drugs can bring on heart, kidney and liver disease, as well as a host of daily discomforts.Unlike the photos in the ads we see, most of my friends who are on drug cocktails are not having the time of their lives. They spend mornings in the bathroom throwing up or suffering from diarrhea. They spend afternoons at doctor's appointments, clinics and pharmacies. And they spend endless evenings planning their estates and trying to make ends meet because they are not well enough to support themselves and their new drug habit. And those are just the friends for whom the drugs work. For many women the cocktails are nothing but a drain on finance, internal organs and stamina. Even if the drugs were as effective as advertised, should we be creating a community of drug dependency? We have done a terrific job removing the stigma of having AIDS. But in doing so we've failed to eliminate the disease. H.I.V. is an almost completely avoidable infection. You need to be compliant in some very specific behaviors to be at risk. In fact, if every person now infected vowed that the disease ended with him, we could wipe out the ballooning number of new infections.Instead, we've sold our next generation into drug slavery and their destiny to medical researchers because we'd rather treat each other as sexual objects than as family. Thanks to the drug companies that have made billions of dollars off us, and to the medical community that has gained a captive audience to fill appointment books, and to AIDS charities that have become a career for many, we have created an industry of disease that would crumble if AIDS was cured in our community.I am calling for us to take back our lives and culture and to stop spreading the virus. I am calling for us to resist the normalization of disease and once again embrace health. I'm calling for an end to the false advertising for drugs and for us to stop minimizing the infection with cute little names like "the gift" or "the bug." I want to see an ad campaign showing a sexy man saying: I don't have H.I.V. I don't want to waste my life and resources on drugs. I am taking charge of my body, my health and my destiny. I am a negative gay role model.

Harvey Fierstein, who won the 2003 Tony Award for his performance in "Hairspray," is a commentator on "In the Life," a television series.

The point of this thread is not to know how or why someone got infected, it is about how much did you really know about the reality of having HIV.

OK. The original post and some of the discussion relates specifically to the question of how knowledge of 'the reality of having HIV' relates to youth today getting infected... so I don't see them as separate issues. The original post suggests that the current culture of HIV as a manageable illness may contribute to continuing infection rates because (young) people do not take the disease 'seriously.'

What I am trying to think about, as someone who was infected recently, who 'knew better,' who remembers the precise moment when he thought 'maybe there is cure' when the HAART results starting looking hopeful, is how someone getting infected today is 'problematized': what presuppositions inform the framing of this as a problem?

And thank you AustinWesley for posting that (horrible) Fierstein essay, it illustrates perfectly certain common sense assumptions about risk and blame that I think merit critical interrogation by everyone, and especially by HIV+ people, young and old, newly diagnosed and LTS alike.

Dude, seriously chill a bit!!You know nothing about me either, so lets just put the swords away and discuss this a bit more.I too come from a tiny town in the midwest. Growing up gay and a minority didn't exactly make me popular with the other queer kids in town so I did what I now realize was a wise thing.... I made friends with the town gay "dinosaurs" as I knew since they survived being gay in a rural setting, maybe just maybe, I would learn something from them. Had I been accepted into the clique of queer boys screaming around town, nothing good would have come of it. this too started for me around the age of 13. Although it was offered numerous times, sex wasn't the driving factor for me then. Something inside just allowed me to bypass that draw (hell yes i thought about it) and i just didn't act upon it. Common sense prevailed and I abstained until i graduated HS and moved to live with relatives in a large city. I made the choice to make older gays my friends and maybe I wasn't considered "normal" to do so, but I enjoyed their company and learned the ropes of 'gay survival' early. While other gay men my age were S-ing and F-ing everything that walked by, I finished my college education and found a man who would become my partner for the next 15 years. He too was older than I. Near the end of our relationship, thinking i had missed out on something by refusing sex at an early age, I decide that i wanted to have an open relationship. We did and within 2 years, I became infected. That ended the relationship and I faced what i had to and because of it, became a stronger person. Shortly after that break up, I met a man who was negative. Within the first ten minutes of our conversation, I blurted out "IM POSTIVE" and attempted to walk away. He stopped me and we talked for hours that night and here it is 10 years later that we are still together.Now the reason I tell you that story is so you will see that I am only a person as well, one who made mistakes and one who learned from them. I in no way am judging you for the decisions you made to get you to where you are now. What I am doing however, is to tell you what allowed me to have the outlook i do. I still have to stand by the statement I made saying I do not generalize, but rather make statements and have opinions based on my life.Again, regardless of your age, in this day of media exposure and the availability of the internet, there is no reason for people to put themselves at risk. I'm sorry you didn't have access to more info or even a "dinosaur" (or parent) to guide you through this time, but again the info is out there if you want it. IMO, if you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to learn the consequences BEFORE you do so, rural life or not. No need for hysterical calls (or in your case, maybe so) to get the info you needed to make that choice to have sex in the first place. Also, you say you had no friends over 18 but I am sure at some point you did come in contact with others who had sex and maybe became pregnant at an early age? Didn't that make an alarm sound off that maybe some information might be needed? In speaking with my nieces and nephews in that same small town that I grew up in, they all know what the story is and I hope will make decisions based on what they have learned. I certainly tell them all I know to to guide them that way.So, in reading my life story, I hope you get a sense that there were other ways to live. Again, I'm not passing judgement on you or calling you names...I'm only relating my opinions and how i came to this point in my life.

Buca-

You sound like a walking, talking version of the NAMBLA literature I remember reading around 1978. There's a word for men in their 30s who consort with teenage boys, and it's called pedophile.

I waited until I was 17 before becoming sexually active. It was 1977 and I was probably the last kid I knew to remain a virgin. I'd had more than one offer, beginning at age 15, from older men who were more than willing to help me explore my sexuality. I seriously considered at least one possiblity, but rejected it based on the creep factor.

Because i began self-identifying as gay way before I actually had sex, beginning again at about age 15. Like Mouse, I gravitated to other gay kids and we had a fierce clique going until we were deep into our 20s. They weren't all gay, though. At least one of the girls and two of the guys were highly bi-curious (at least in the beginning) and they all hung on because we had the best drugs in town and were by far the least judgemental, most open group they'd ever met.

Without the support of the clique, I shudder to think how I'd have been manipulated by older men more interested in my ass than my brain.

However, when I was 18 and supporting myself, I generally chose sex partners aged anything from five to twenty years older than me. They simply had finer skills, and i stuck around long enough to learn the subtleties of social graces along with being exposed to way much Gershwin and Porter. However, when it came time to choose lovers (as they were called back in the Disco era), I selected from peers or near peers. Sex is one thing, sharing one's life with someone who was my equal was absolutely essential.

Brent(Who is one of Mouse's Fairy Poz Fathers and therefore very protective)

Logged

Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

I just reread the original post about this and then the real reason came to me. In the gay world (and just realizing in the str8 world as well) it is the US vs THEM situation. By us, I refer to those of us who have been 'blessed' with this bug for years and are some what 'more mature'.....I will not fall into that mindset and call myself 'old'. 15+ years and poz and 48 yo I am looked at in the gay world as being an old queen who was at one time a slut.The younger generation who didn't have to face the epidemic when it was a death sentence wants nothing to do with us and believe it is something that will not affect their hot young bodies at all. For those who do think of it, they believe the hated and misleading ads that feature happy, hot young men who 'just pop a pill' and remain healthy and hot.

We didn't fail them, they, in alienating the older generation, failed themselves. I was cruising through the gay.com rooms recently and noticed they have divided up a cities rooms not only by location, but by age as well. Although there is no mention of how old you have to be to be in the "mature" rooms, I take it anyone over 30 qualifies as old.

I think that the seperation in chat rooms is based on age groups that are more than likely going to get along based on similar interests and being attracted to each other. The purpose of chat rooms are one of 3 things, looking for sex, looking for friends, looking for love (we know in a gay site which is most popular)...If someone a 18-25 year old man is looking for sex (in general) they look for someone within a certain age range...If someone is looking for "love" i guess it depends on their "types" but if someoen is looking for friends many times older people and younger people cant connect because of different interests, maturity, among other things....I personally prefer people older than me but i understand why it is segregated....I think its the natural order of things as one ages.....If you say you can only go to a "mature" room what is wrong with that?

You have no idea how many times ive been rejected because im "too young" and i dont complain....I understand that someone older than myself is at a different stage in their life than me and they would prefer someone the same. I am in college, havent started a career and they are at the prime in their career and have different interests, friends and ideas of fun....I dont get upset (usually)

Bucko....way off base there with your assessment of me and my younger years!! BTW, pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children and not teens as your description applies. At 13-14, I was far beyond being categorized as a child. Yes, as I said earlier, a few advances were offered and I refused them and not for the same reasons as you....I wasn't "creeped out" by it as we mutually considered each other friends. No encounters ever happened as I used common sense. It was a mutually agreed that no sex would happen.As far as the NAMBLA association, its quite a insulting remark to throw around so flippantly, given your signature line. Anyway, as I explained to your "son" LOL (NAMBLA could be used back at you) what I post here is not a judgement of others, but merely my take on the topic at hand.....so please, save your judgements for someone who doesn't have the intellect to defend themselves. as those are probably your main victims.What you go on to tell about yourself at the age of 18 is what I discovered a bit earlier...they were there to share their life experiences and I learned alot from my more "mature" friends.It's a sad commentary on gay life that we look to one age group for sex and consider others older as our love interests....well, I should take out the 'we' from that statement as such was not the case with me.Most of what you write gives me support for what this topic is all about....a generation gap and the differences that drive us to how we conduct ourselves, especially where sex and seroconversion are concerned.Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you or others. I am only here to give my comments and opinions. So in the future, please do the same and hold your negativity to yourself. Thanks and thanks for such a welcome!!!

Puerto Rico, I understand what you are trying to say and somewhat agree that is what the 'norm' in our world is. I dont use age as a basis of who i chose to associate with. Some more mature men haven't mentally matured with their age and some younger men are far more advanced mentally than their peers. I get a few of the opposite of what you describe....younger men talk to me and I to them and take them at face value. As far as an idea friend, age doesnt enter the picture for me and appreciate that quality in the people I meet.I think as you get older, you will see what I am saying. Still, I respect your take on the generational gap and thank you for sharing it.

well that was not my original intention, but so be it. glad to see my words do have an effect!! Being a veteran of several message boards, this is to be expected when different views are expressed...will i lose sleep over it....not in the least and hope you don't either.Why I thought this forum would be any different than other gay populated boards is beyond me!! LOL have a good night.....And, do you kiss your ..... whatever with that mouth?

well that was not my original intention, but so be it. glad to see my words do have an effect!! Being a veteran of several message boards, this is to be expected when different views are expressed...will i lose sleep over it....not in the least and hope you don't either.Why I thought this forum would be any different than other gay populated boards is beyond me!! LOL have a good night.....And, do you kiss your ..... whatever with that mouth?

I have to wonder if you actually expected to come into a forum where you didn't know anyone, with an attitude like you have, and make any friends? So much for not generalizing, because you've done it once again. I think you're a condescending asshole that's way too impressed with himself and his own opinions.

And I think you are a young bitter man with a lot to learn about life, which you will. I never really expected to find friends here, just others to compare stories of how we cope with the obstacles in our lives. I am assuming you haven't found a good way to cope yet, but in reading othes praises of you and your opinions, maybe they can help you find that person under the resentment and anger.Good luck with that!!

Bucko....way off base there with your assessment of me and my younger years!!

No, I don't think so.

BTW, pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children and not teens as your description applies. At 13-14, I was far beyond being categorized as a child. Yes, as I said earlier, a few advances were offered and I refused them and not for the same reasons as you....I wasn't "creeped out" by it as we mutually considered each other friends. No encounters ever happened as I used common sense. It was a mutually agreed that no sex would happen.

This is straight out of the NAMBLA playbook, and I'm not buying a word of it. 13-14 year old boys are not capable of the maturity necessary to interact with adult men as peers. In order to be a friend, you must first be a peer and be rough equals. There is no equality between a post-pubescent boy and a grown man, and any suggestion that such is possible is a risible over-reach of the term friend.

As far as the NAMBLA association, its quite a insulting remark to throw around so flippantly, given your signature line.

I have three signature lines. As we are strangers, I'll explain them to you, so there can be no misunderstanding."The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle every day": The Spin Cycle is the blog I share with Matty The Damned and several other members of AIDSmeds. Read it at your peril: it's bound to disturb and provoke you. But that's the reason behind its existence."Blessed with brains, talent & gorgeous tits": A Bette Midler quote."He may be Tina's bitch, but I'm not his": Is a quote from one of my Spin Cycle articles. The context is how I was coming to grips with a failed relationship with a closet Crystal Methamphetamine addict.This has nothing to do with anything we've discussed.And yes, the administrators and moderators are fully aware of The Spin Cycle and what is contained therein.

Anyway, as I explained to your "son" LOL (NAMBLA could be used back at you) what I post here is not a judgement of others, but merely my take on the topic at hand.....so please, save your judgements for someone who doesn't have the intellect to defend themselves. as those are probably your main victims.

My relationship with Jaser is not subject to your speculation, and I sincerely resent what you wrote there. Unlike you and the relationships you enjoyed with men old enough to be your father (if not grandfather), we are not friends. I am his adviser, confidant and mentor. There is now nor has there ever been anything in any way inappropriate in my dealings with him.You can attempt to "smutty" it up with speculation, but I can assure you that you are and will always be mistaken in that regard.

What you go on to tell about yourself at the age of 18 is what I discovered a bit earlier...they were there to share their life experiences and I learned alot from my more "mature" friends.

What I describe after I turned 18 is this:However, when I was 18 and supporting myself, I generally chose sex partners aged anything from five to twenty years older than me. They simply had finer skills, and i stuck around long enough to learn the subtleties of social graces along with being exposed to way much Gershwin and Porter. However, when it came time to choose lovers (as they were called back in the Disco era), I selected from peers or near peers. Sex is one thing, sharing one's life with someone who was my equal was absolutely essential.

I state explicitly that I chose older men as sex partners once I turned 18. You are categorical in maintaining that those were platonic relationships. I don't see the connection.It's a sad commentary on gay life that we look to one age group for sex and consider others older as our love interests....well, I should take out the 'we' from that statement as such was not the case with me.

Actually, that's not what I say either. I say that I preferred older men as sexual partners but chose peers for more enduring relationships.Most of what you write gives me support for what this topic is all about....a generation gap and the differences that drive us to how we conduct ourselves, especially where sex and seroconversion are concerned.

Anything i discuss in my personal history of this time predates the AIDS crisis. I turned 20 in 1980 and didn't even equate sex with HIV until a few years after that. The first time someone insisted on my wearing a condom was in 1984. I remember it exactly. I thought it was some sick joke.

As an aside, I am a religious serosorter, and my preferred age for sexual partners is from 35-45, pretty much as it's always been.Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you or others. I am only here to give my comments and opinions. So in the future, please do the same and hold your negativity to yourself.

For someone who doesn't want an argument, you certainly come out with both barrels cocked.Thanks and thanks for such a welcome!!!

I do wish to make one thing extremely clear, because this is most important:I have not now nor have ever suggested that you are a pedophile, irrespective of your rather novel cut-off date. But I am resolute that teenage boys (13-17) are off limits to adult men as anything other than mentors. It is impossible to be "friends" with someone who is not your sociological equal.

well that was not my original intention, but so be itglad to see my words do have an effect!!.

I'm glad you're happy having upset Jaser. You must be very proud making a 16-year-old upset.

Being a veteran of several message boards, this is to be expected when different views are expressed...will i lose sleep over it....not in the least and hope you don't either.

Sleep tight, I'll make sure Jaser gets calm down now.

Why I thought this forum would be any different than other gay populated boards is beyond me!! LOL have a good night.....And, do you kiss your ..... whatever with that mouth?HuhThe joke is "mother". Jaser has a mother, and a boyfriend, too (of his own age). I'm quite sure he kisses them both. I wouldn't worry about his vocabulary, it's standard teenager stuff with a precocious edge.

He's a great kid coping better than most men twice his age, but he's still a kid. Engaging in a verbal spat with a 16-year old is contemptable. As an adult, you should know better.

Logged

Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

And I think you are a young bitter man with a lot to learn about life, which you will.

And you are a foolish newcomer who with a lot to learn about our Mouse. If you had any idea of the respect and esteem in which he is held around here, much less why he is so held, you'd eat your own head with shame and embarrassment.

You need to understand that the Smaller One has been with us since he was 14, that's over two years. You have been here for a much shorter amount of time and would do well to keep a civil and respectful tongue in your head.

Bucko....way off base there with your assessment of me and my younger years!!

No, I don't think so.

HAVE TO DISAGREE THERE TO SPECULATE I WAS USED A BAIT AND FOOD FOR PEDOPHILIC PREDATORS NEVER HAPPENED...THAT WAS AGREED ON BOTH SIDES.

BTW, pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children and not teens as your description applies. At 13-14, I was far beyond being categorized as a child. Yes, as I said earlier, a few advances were offered and I refused them and not for the same reasons as you....I wasn't "creeped out" by it as we mutually considered each other friends. No encounters ever happened as I used common sense. It was a mutually agreed that no sex would happen.

This is straight out of the NAMBLA playbook, and I'm not buying a word of it. 13-14 year old boys are not capable of the maturity necessary to interact with adult men as peers. In order to be a friend, you must first be a peer and be rough equals. There is no equality between a post-pubescent boy and a grown man, and any suggestion that such is possible is a risible over-reach of the term friend.

I AM NOT AS FAMILIAR WITH THE NAMBLA HANDBOOK AS YOU CLAIM TO BE, SO ILL LEAVE THAT UP TO YOU. SPEAK FOR YOURSELF, I WAS THEN PRETTY HARDENED BY REJECTION BY MY OWN PEERS DURING THAT TIME AND MY MATURE "MENTOR/FRIENDS" REALIZED THAT AND RESPECTED OUR RELATIONSHIP. THE FACT THERE WAS NO FATHER FIGURE IN MY LIFE CONTRIBUTED TO MY LONG LASTING SEARCH FOR ONE TO FILL THAT POSITION AND THOSE FEW I FOUND AS "MENTORS' DID THAT JOB WELL. I HAVE HAD IN ALL TIMES OF MY LATE TEEN AND ADULT LIFE FRIENDS OF ALL AGES, BOTH YOUNGER AND OLDER..AS I STATED BEFORE, TO ME AGE HASNT BEEN A PROBLEM. YES THERE IS CERTAINLY AND EQUALITY BEFORE AND AFTER THEY REALIZED THEY WERE ACTING AS A MUCH NEEDED FATHER FIGURE.

As far as the NAMBLA association, its quite a insulting remark to throw around so flippantly, given your signature line.

I have three signature lines. As we are strangers, I'll explain them to you, so there can be no misunderstanding."The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle every day": The Spin Cycle is the blog I share with Matty The Damned and several other members of AIDSmeds. Read it at your peril: it's bound to disturb and provoke you. But that's the reason behind its existence."Blessed with brains, talent & gorgeous tits": A Bette Midler quote."He may be Tina's bitch, but I'm not his": Is a quote from one of my Spin Cycle articles. The context is how I was coming to grips with a failed relationship with a closet Crystal Methamphetamine addict.This has nothing to do with anything we've discussed.And yes, the administrators and moderators are fully aware of The Spin Cycle and what is contained therein.

NOT INTERESTED IN SOMEONE WHO WOULD ATTACK ME SO MUCH TO TAKE THE TIME TO READ THEIR BLOG...ESPECIALLY IF YOUR REMARKS ARE ANY INDICATION OF SAID BLOGS CONTENT. THANKS ANYWAY.....

Anyway, as I explained to your "son" LOL (NAMBLA could be used back at you) what I post here is not a judgement of others, but merely my take on the topic at hand.....so please, save your judgements for someone who doesn't have the intellect to defend themselves. as those are probably your main victims.

My relationship with Jaser is not subject to your speculation, and I sincerely resent what you wrote there.

NOR ARE MY MENTOR RELATIONSHIPS AMMO TO BE USED AGAINST ME. TAKE WHAT YOU THROW OUT AS A MAN...FROM A MAN WHO CAN TAKE IT.....Unlike you and the relationships you enjoyed with men old enough to be your father (if not grandfather), we are not friends. I am his adviser, confidant and mentor. There is now nor has there ever been anything in any way inappropriate in my dealings with him.You can attempt to "smutty" it up with speculation, but I can assure you that you are and will always be mistaken in that regard.

NO NEED FOR ME TO SMUTTY IT UP NOR DID I INTEND THAT, ONLY WAS SHOWING HOW IT WORKS BOTH WAYS....

What you go on to tell about yourself at the age of 18 is what I discovered a bit earlier...they were there to share their life experiences and I learned alot from my more "mature" friends.

What I describe after I turned 18 is this:However, when I was 18 and supporting myself, I generally chose sex partners aged anything from five to twenty years older than me. They simply had finer skills, and i stuck around long enough to learn the subtleties of social graces along with being exposed to way much Gershwin and Porter. However, when it came time to choose lovers (as they were called back in the Disco era), I selected from peers or near peers. Sex is one thing, sharing one's life with someone who was my equal was absolutely essential.

I state explicitly that I chose older men as sex partners once I turned 18. You are categorical in maintaining that those were platonic relationships. I don't see the connection.

DONT UNDERSTAND THIS STATEMENT..... IF IT WAS MY RELATIONSHIPS YOU ARE SPEAKING OF, YES THEY WERE THEN AND REMAIN NOW PLATONIC....It's a sad commentary on gay life that we look to one age group for sex and consider others older as our love interests....well, I should take out the 'we' from that statement as such was not the case with me.

Actually, that's not what I say either. I say that I preferred older men as sexual partners but chose peers for more enduring relationships.

THAT IS EXACTLY AS YOU SAID IT AND THE WAY I VIEW THE SUBJECT IN GENERAL...IT HAS ALOT TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL TOPIC IN THIS CONVERSATIONMost of what you write gives me support for what this topic is all about....a generation gap and the differences that drive us to how we conduct ourselves, especially where sex and seroconversion are concerned.

Anything i discuss in my personal history of this time predates the AIDS crisis. I turned 20 in 1980 and didn't even equate sex with HIV until a few years after that. The first time someone insisted on my wearing a condom was in 1984. I remember it exactly. I thought it was some sick joke.

SORRY THAT YOU MISTOOK SOMEONE BEING SAFE WITH YOU, SAD

As an aside, I am a religious serosorter, and my preferred age for sexual partners is from 35-45, pretty much as it's always been.Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you or others. I am only here to give my comments and opinions. So in the future, please do the same and hold your negativity to yourself.

For someone who doesn't want an argument, you certainly come out with both barrels cocked.

AS I STATED, IM A VETERAN OF MANY SUCH FORUMS, I COME ARMED AND READY TO SHOOT IN PROTECTION OF MY COMMENTS.....IF I FEEL NO DANGER, THOSE GUNS REMAIN IN MY HOLSTER.Thanks and thanks for such a welcome!!!

I do wish to make one thing extremely clear, because this is most important:I have not now nor have ever suggested that you are a pedophile, irrespective of your rather novel cut-off date. But I am resolute that teenage boys (13-17) are off limits to adult men as anything other than mentors. It is impossible to be "friends" with someone who is not your sociological equal

PURELY YOUR INTERUPTATION OF THE SUBJECT AND ONE I DONT AGREE WITH..ENOUGH WITH THE NAMBLA ASSOCIATIONS.....

well that was not my original intention, but so be itglad to see my words do have an effect!!.

I'm glad you're happy having upset Jaser. You must be very proud making a 16-year-old upset.

AS HE SPOKE, I HAD NO INDICATION OF HIS AGE....I CONSIDER IT A LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR HIM...YOU PLAY ROUGH, YOU WILL RECEIVE ROUGH.....PLAY NICE AND YOU ARE WELCOME IN MY SANDBOX ANY TIME!!

Being a veteran of several message boards, this is to be expected when different views are expressed...will i lose sleep over it....not in the least and hope you don't either.

Sleep tight, I'll make sure Jaser gets calm down now.

AS ONLY A MENTOR WOULD....FROM HIS LANGUAGE AND DEMEANOR, HE IS CALLOUS BEYOND HIS YEARS

Why I thought this forum would be any different than other gay populated boards is beyond me!! LOL have a good night.....And, do you kiss your ..... whatever with that mouth?HuhThe joke is "mother". Jaser has a mother, and a boyfriend, too (of his own age). I'm quite sure he kisses them both. I wouldn't worry about his vocabulary, it's standard teenager stuff with a precocious edge.

NOT ANY TEENAGER I ASSOCIATE WITH....I WASNT RAISED THAT WAY AND DONT APPRECIATE IT AT ALL........PRECOCIOUS OR NOT

He's a great kid coping better than most men twice his age, but he's still a kid. Engaging in a verbal spat with a 16-year old is contemptable. As an adult, you should know better.

AGAIN, YOU CHOSE TO SPAR AND DEGRADE ONE OF THE BIG BOYS, I SUGGEST HE GROW A THICK SKIN...LIFE IN THE REAL WORLD ISNT AS CALM AND ACCEPTING OF A FOUL MOUTH CHILD.....iF HE ACTED AS HIS AGE DICTATES, MY RESPONSES WOULDNT HAVE BEEN WHAT THEY WERE.

BY NO MEANS AM I A PRUDE OR FOR THAT MATTER A CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST, BUT THAT ANGER IS TRIGGERED BY INTERNAL CONFLICT...AS A MENTOR PERHAPS YOU COULD ACT IN A WAY THAT WOULD HELP HIM LEARN BETTER COMMUNICATION FOR HIS UPCOMING ENCOUNTERS IN THE REAL WORLD RATHER THAN TO JUST DEFEND HIS PRECOCIOUS BEHAVIOR AND TEMPERMENT.

And I think you are a young bitter man with a lot to learn about life, which you will.

And you are a foolish newcomer who with a lot to learn about our Mouse. If you had any idea of the respect and esteem in which he is held around here, much less why he is so held, you'd eat your own head with shame and embarrassment.

NEWCOMER, YES, FOOLISH NO. IF THE PAST DAYS CONVERSATIONS ARE ANY INDICATION OF HIS NORMAL BEHAVIOR, I HAVE NO DESIRE TO KNOW AND RESPECT HIM. RESPECT GOES BOTH WAYS...HE CAME AT ME WITH A GROWL AND NOT BEING ONE TO TURN AND RUN FROM SUCH ENCOUNTERS, I GAVE IT MY BEST. NO SHAME NOR EMBARRASSMENT HERE...AGAIN, RESPECT GIVEN EARNS RESPECT IN TURN.

You need to understand that the Smaller One has been with us since he was 14, that's over two years. You have been here for a much shorter amount of time and would do well to keep a civil and respectful tongue in your head.

THATS YOUR OPINION AND DONT HOLD YOUR BREATHE EXPECTING THAT FROM ME, IT JUST WONT HAPPEN AT THIS STAGE.

AS I TOLD B, THE MORE YOU TOLERATE AND ENCOURAGE SUCH CLASSLESS BEHAVIOR FROM A TEEN, THE MORE DISSERVICE YOU ARE DOING TO HIM IN THE REAL WORLD WHEN HE DOESNT HAVE YOU TO BACK UP HIS RAGE.

iN CLOSING, I BY NO MEANS MEANT TO DISS HIM, IF YOU READ BACK TO HIS ORIGINAL POST TO ME, HE WAS THE ONE WHO CAME OUT WITH BOTH BARRELS BLAZING.....I POSTED WHAT I DID IN DEFENSE OF MY OPINIONS AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. I DO GIVE HIM CREDIT (AND SAY SO WITH ALL RESPECT) FOR BEING FACED WITH THIS CHALLENGE AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE, BUT FOR THAT REASON ALONE, HIS APPROACH SHOULD BE SERIOUSLY QUESTIONED AND CORRECTED BY THOSE OF YOU WHO CONSIDER YOURSELVES HIS MENTORS.