Some theologians think that Christ was an Essene. If he was, he was a vegan...and believing that scientists must now accept conscience as part of the scientific equation.By the way, all my digging is done with a fork - not a spade - to preserve earthworms. Q: What are your views on genetically modified organisms? A: [if it] seems too good to be true, it probably isMost orthodox medicines are tested on animals... [vegans taking them commit] a more serious inconsistency even than wearing leatherwe must always remember: is it just possible that our ["direct action"] act could be counterproductive?

Q: What are your views on genetically modified organisms? A: [if it] seems too good to be true, it probably isMost orthodox medicines are tested on animals... [vegans taking them commit] a more serious inconsistency even than wearing leather

All new medicines and many procedures are tested on animals as part of the safety determination.

Quote:

we must always remember: is it just possible that our ["direct action"] act could be counterproductive?

Very true.

_________________With friends like Guido, you will not have enemies for long.

“Intellect is invisible to the man who has none” Arthur Schopenhauer

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."Albert Einstein

Q: What are your views on animal experiments?A: I said that cruel sports were the bottom of the barrel, but I think I'll have to move even them up one and put vivisection at the bottom. One thing we should always ask when we think that cruelty is largely delegated to the people who perform it is the simple question, if these butchers and vivisectors weren't there, could we perform the acts that they are doing? If we couldn't, we have no right to expect them to do those things on our behalf. Most orthodox medicines are tested on animals, and this perhaps is the greatest inconsistency in vegetarians and vegans who take orthodox medicines - a more serious inconsistency even than wearing leather or wool because these are by-products of industries that are primarily there to provide meat.

Ann Vole wrote:

Most orthodox medicines are tested on animals... [vegans taking them commit] a more serious inconsistency even than wearing leather

Wayne Stollings wrote:

All new medicines and many procedures are tested on animals as part of the safety determination

And Donald Watson is suggesting it is a worse offense to the vegan ideology to use these modern medicines that involve animal testing then using the by-products of animals already slated to die (meat industry). Note that I am not a vegan but respect the movement and it's goals. This just stood out as an interesting thing many people don't think about when they think they are being vegans.

Q: What are your views on animal experiments?A: I said that cruel sports were the bottom of the barrel, but I think I'll have to move even them up one and put vivisection at the bottom. One thing we should always ask when we think that cruelty is largely delegated to the people who perform it is the simple question, if these butchers and vivisectors weren't there, could we perform the acts that they are doing? If we couldn't, we have no right to expect them to do those things on our behalf. Most orthodox medicines are tested on animals, and this perhaps is the greatest inconsistency in vegetarians and vegans who take orthodox medicines - a more serious inconsistency even than wearing leather or wool because these are by-products of industries that are primarily there to provide meat.

Ann Vole wrote:

Most orthodox medicines are tested on animals... [vegans taking them commit] a more serious inconsistency even than wearing leather

Wayne Stollings wrote:

All new medicines and many procedures are tested on animals as part of the safety determination

And Donald Watson is suggesting it is a worse offense to the vegan ideology to use these modern medicines that involve animal testing then using the by-products of animals already slated to die (meat industry). Note that I am not a vegan but respect the movement and it's goals. This just stood out as an interesting thing many people don't think about when they think they are being vegans.

I agree, I was just pointing out that ALL new medications were tested on animals so there is very little chance of not having an animal test involved with a medicine. Something like aspirin, for example could predate that requirement although the coated version is another story.

That was a point of discussion here at one time when there were some ethical vegans making claims they did not use animal products. Another aspect was steel production which I believe also uses animal products.

That was a point of discussion here at one time when there were some ethical vegans making claims they did not use animal products

I have worked on grain farms long enough to know that all crops involve the death of countless rodents. Many larger animals also get killed. It is not the fault of the farmer but rather the low price of grain and high price of labor that is forcing the farmer to use bigger and faster equipment that is more and more likely to kill wildlife hiding in the crops or underground. There is a new grain harvesting method that looks promising to be lower in fuel use and allows much of the energy used to be electric. It gathers the whole heads of grain and as such reduces animal kills (the blades are higher). The test results had the surprising number in one research I read on the method - about 10-15% of the non-grain stuff sifted out of the grain (done in stationary harvesters that could be electric) was animal bodies. Now a good portion of that could be grasshoppers and midge but they did list rodents in the list of possible contaminants (for those who may want to use this waste as animal feed). I would estimate at least 1 hare would be killed per field (square mile) every year and good chance to kill big birds and deer. My point is if you truly want to go vegan, you have to grow your food by hand at home. Part of that reality was brought home as I try to raise rodents for pets and have them getting epidemics from the rodents I see being sifted out by the thousands per square mile in combines (when the plug up, I crawl inside to pull out weeds and there they are in large numbers... dead voles and deermice). How do I get uncontaminated food for my rodents? "Organic" is guaranteed to have more rodent contamination then the heavily pesticide-use mono-crops. No, I have to have a rodent-free greenhouse and make the food myself.

How do I get uncontaminated food for my rodents? "Organic" is guaranteed to have more rodent contamination then the heavily pesticide-use mono-crops. No, I have to have a rodent-free greenhouse and make the food myself.[/quote]

We all need to be growing food .... sharing our backyards, balconies, rooftops, planting where we can.

We all need to be growing food .... sharing our backyards, balconies, rooftops, planting where we can.

Agreed 100%! My secondary goal in life is to show people how to live independently via an energy-self-sufficient house and food-self-sufficient lifestyle using features of that house such as greenhouses and cold-storage rooms. (My primary goal in life is to make films and books with talking animals... one which I can do while also doing the secondary goal above and also be more accessible to people who do not know the language of the media... animals will show them rather then some white dude telling them)