tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post7002878364036097646..comments2015-04-01T00:37:44.149+03:00Comments on Dienekes’ Anthropology Blog: A first look at the DNA of Neolithic inhabitants from SwedenDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-72929947767481951202012-05-03T20:04:10.671+03:002012-05-03T20:04:10.671+03:00Modern gotlanders deviate from other Swedes in a B...Modern gotlanders deviate from other Swedes in a Baltic direction too. Apparently ever since the stone age.Måns Sjöberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05383408718382252334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60402734899149622742012-05-02T02:11:50.631+03:002012-05-02T02:11:50.631+03:00&quot;Yonaguni is a geological formation.&quot; My...&quot;Yonaguni is a geological formation.&quot; My background is not in the physical sciences, but I find it vey hard to believe that nature alone could have produced the quantity of straight lines and right angles in the rock formations at that site.formerjerseyboyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12359486237718341127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-52856168110138120212012-05-01T06:01:45.535+03:002012-05-01T06:01:45.535+03:00&gt; Incorrect, they do not seem to be &quot;mostl...&gt; Incorrect, they do not seem to be &quot;mostly pre neolithic European&quot;. As I&#39;ve said countless times, the K=12 &quot;North European&quot; component is not equivalent to a pre Neolithic European component.<br /><br />In map A the Russians and the Finnish are closer to the neo h/g&#39;s then they are to the Adygei, the neo farmer, or any combination of the latter two. (Actually that farmer is admixed herself...) <br /><br />So basically, their closer to the h/g&#39;s than the farmers and non European areas of today, which strongly indicates more than half their heritage is from h/g Europe.<br /><br />Additionally, in map B the Northern Europeans are far closer to the neo h/g&#39;s than the farmer, the Greeks, and the Turkish.princenuadhahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32853736947824213732012-05-01T01:54:51.206+03:002012-05-01T01:54:51.206+03:00Pavlopetri yes!Pavlopetri yes!Justinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14658198296423491764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-32154464812267921522012-04-30T21:56:20.717+03:002012-04-30T21:56:20.717+03:00Yonaguni is a geological formation. The Pavlopetri...Yonaguni is a geological formation. The Pavlopetri site is a real Bronze Age submerged city.<br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/10/pavlopetri-4000-year-old-underwater.htmlDienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-42691428767376544112012-04-30T21:49:16.870+03:002012-04-30T21:49:16.870+03:00&quot;I saw a NOVA not long ago about uncovering (...&quot;I saw a NOVA not long ago about uncovering (maybe in submerged coast?) a large city in Greece way before it was thought there was mainland development beyond villages.&quot;<br /><br />There are quite a few of these underwater archaeological remains across the world. For example, the Yonaguni formations in Japan, reports of submerged cities off the coast of India, plus reports of a submerged city off the coast of Cuba near Pinar del Rio, and of course, the well-known formation called Bimini Road in the Bahamas. Some of the dating for these items place their construction closer to the end of the latest Ice Age, which of course would clash with the current scientific consensus about the lower cultural and technological levels fo &quot;stone age&quot; humans.formerjerseyboyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12359486237718341127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-10394325286229736382012-04-30T19:54:13.279+03:002012-04-30T19:54:13.279+03:00&quot;The Sub-Saharan admixture in Avj52 is remark...&quot;The Sub-Saharan admixture in Avj52 is remarkable. And even more remarkable is its absence in Gok4.<br /><br />I doubt that&#39;s real, probably an artefact.&quot;<br /><br />You should&#39;ve included American Indians for comparison. At K12 you have a Siberian component in Ajv70.German Dziebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-60557408339325725672012-04-30T18:11:32.989+03:002012-04-30T18:11:32.989+03:00&quot;I bet you that when Iberian hunter-gatherers...&quot;I bet you that when Iberian hunter-gatherers are genotyped, they&#39;ll be closer overall to modern Balts and Finns than to Iberians.&quot;<br /><br />Maybe the Franco-Cantabrians will, but I&#39;m not so sure about the Mesolithic shell-middens of the Tagus valley in Portugal, the Muge men. They are described as being Sub-Saharan looking, short like African pygmies, resembling a proto-Etiopic Homo aurignacensis type.<br />Surely there are more Mesolithic genetic substructures to enveil...Eduardo Pintohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09199139277049366469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-87750132650209270762012-04-30T16:26:28.139+03:002012-04-30T16:26:28.139+03:00truth: My hypothesis would be that Basque are in f...truth: My hypothesis would be that Basque are in fact a young population. We knew this already though because they are not ripe from the stone age due to their indigenous words for metals and local equestrian skills. That said, northern Europe had 0% SW Asian, and it looks like the Mediterraneans bred heavily with the northern people. This could ultimately reduce their scores to next to nil of all other components in the long run - let&#39;s say a few thousand years. Basque are about 60% Mediterranean, 40% North.AWoodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14966600445259901063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84084214658986629452012-04-30T12:50:55.624+03:002012-04-30T12:50:55.624+03:00Well we will see, once more people are tested.
S...Well we will see, once more people are tested.<br /><br />Since 2 years they only test &quot;untypical&quot; ancient peoples DNA. At least if it comes to the comments on it.<br /><br />Such bad luck. They never seem to pick anyone typical. ;-DFantyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-79561426259849424112012-04-30T09:45:20.410+03:002012-04-30T09:45:20.410+03:00So they&#39;re most similar to Finns in a broad se...<i>So they&#39;re most similar to Finns in a broad sense, but most alike to other North-Central Europeans in a more meaningful sense, which shows up in the PCAs in the original study, as well as in the allele sharing table.<br /><br />There&#39;s no evidence anywhere to suggest these hunter-gatherers were especially close to who was living in modern Belorussia or Russia at the time. I won&#39;t even mention the Urals.</i><br /><br />Davidski,<br />You cannot compare to a small set of extant populations and conclude an origin from that. However, what we do know is that Scandinavia (and mostly the SE of it) was at the absolute margin of PWC, which had its center and origin somewhere in Belarus or Russia, and was intrusive in the West. In other words, following the archaeological record, that&#39;s where these people came from. There is no local HG continuity.<br /><br /><i><b>If Gok4 is typical of Mediterranean-derived farmers</b> responsible for the highly significant Atlantic_Med component amongst northern and southern West Europeans through the Megalithic cultural complex then what happened to the Southwest Asian component in the populations?</i><br /><br />Amanda S,<br />I think that&#39;s another reason to believe she was <i>not</i> typical of the local (ultimately LBK-derived) farmers, but a recent immigrant from Atlantic Megalithism.eurologisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-75107791164364950582012-04-30T07:58:32.729+03:002012-04-30T07:58:32.729+03:00If the people were closest to Greeks and Cypriots ...If the people were closest to Greeks and Cypriots why can we not safely say the Aegean sphere, and have to keep reaching into the East? I saw a NOVA not long ago about uncovering (maybe in submerged coast?) a large city in Greece way before it was thought there was mainland development beyond villages. Like Eurologist said in another post:<br /><br /> &quot;if these people originated in Anatolia, wouldn&#39;t it be strange that they managed to conquer most of Europe, but are no longer present in Anatolia?&quot;<br /><br />The amount of similarity to Turkey they did find seems enough to explain some seeding first to islands, then eventually a rugged mainland, that were already populated and would only have so much extra room for new people - who would have likely been previous trading partners anyhow, so it wouldn&#39;t be like trekking around &quot;leap frogging&quot; turning a blind eye to strangers. I can believe gradually spreading the march of farming gradually over contiguous land but to cross ocean to wage war to kick people out to farm seems far fetched at that time period.Justinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14658198296423491764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-2879614169391032972012-04-30T03:51:22.960+03:002012-04-30T03:51:22.960+03:00The 8.6% Southwest Asian component at K12b for Gok...The 8.6% Southwest Asian component at K12b for Gok4 and the 7.6% Southwest Asian component for Oetzi are interesting because in modern central and northern European populations this component is small or absent. If Gok4 is typical of Mediterranean-derived farmers responsible for the highly significant Atlantic_Med component amongst northern and southern West Europeans through the Megalithic cultural complex then what happened to the Southwest Asian component in the populations?Amanda Shttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05997180528147657311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-85353218939737128372012-04-29T22:58:00.674+03:002012-04-29T22:58:00.674+03:00But they didn&#39;t leave munch of a genetic impac...<i>But they didn&#39;t leave munch of a genetic impact in the north. The north Europeans (maybe more so for k = 12 &quot;north European&quot;) seem to mostly be pre neolithic European. Wasn&#39;t your theory that they would largely be neolithic, or later, West Asian?</i><br /><br />Incorrect, they do not seem to be &quot;mostly pre neolithic European&quot;. As I&#39;ve said countless times, the K=12 &quot;North European&quot; component is not equivalent to a pre Neolithic European component.Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-76695575284114820342012-04-29T22:45:53.641+03:002012-04-29T22:45:53.641+03:00&gt; I&#39;d say they are compatible with it, sinc...&gt; I&#39;d say they are compatible with it, since the &quot;womb of nations&quot; theory suggests that Europeans did not adopt farming but received population influxes from the Near East.<br /><br />But they didn&#39;t leave munch of a genetic impact in the north. The north Europeans (maybe more so for k = 12 &quot;north European&quot;) seem to mostly be pre neolithic European. Wasn&#39;t your theory that they would largely be neolithic, or later, West Asian?princenuadhahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02165977957244158593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-77752807677928373122012-04-29T21:39:44.861+03:002012-04-29T21:39:44.861+03:00Actually, no modern population is actually descend...<i>Actually, no modern population is actually descended only from the Proto-Indo-Europeans. But, they were IMO a population that is related to the K7b &quot;West_Asian&quot; and K12b &quot;Caucasus&quot;/&quot;Gedrosia&quot; components and this legacy was progressively watered down as the IE &quot;package&quot; was passed on, just as it was in historical times (e.g., so many non-Romans adopting the Roman &quot;package&quot; or non-Slavs adopting the Slavic one).</i><br /><br />My problem, that there is absolutely no correlation between the Gedrosia and the Caucasus components in NW Europe. This tell me that this two components where brought here by two different migrations. Also the Gedrosian component is the strongest in the aeras that were reached by IE migration last, which is not really consistent with the gradual dilution (watering down) of the IE legacy. <br /><br />The Caucasian component in NW Europe very likely from IE (consistent with &quot;watering down&quot;, because Irish and Norwegian have the lowest level), but the Gedrosian compoent must have a different suorce.Slumberyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-46316552823650611882012-04-29T21:05:55.152+03:002012-04-29T21:05:55.152+03:00Unless we assume that IE people where already (or ...<i>Unless we assume that IE people where already (or from the beginning) diverged to genetically different subgroups, which is not impossible, but I do not think so.</i><br /><br />They almost certainly were. Opinions differ as to the time depth of Indo-European, but most people would agree that by 5,000, PIE had already broken down. By the Bronze Age we can very reasonably hypothesize that Indo-European related languages were spoken by people of very different genetic background. So, I don&#39;t think it&#39;s a stretch to exclude that the &quot;Gedrosia&quot; component was IE-related because it is present mostly in W Europe and not E Europe.<br /><br />Actually, no modern population is actually descended only from the Proto-Indo-Europeans. But, they were IMO a population that is related to the K7b &quot;West_Asian&quot; and K12b &quot;Caucasus&quot;/&quot;Gedrosia&quot; components and this legacy was progressively watered down as the IE &quot;package&quot; was passed on, just as it was in historical times (e.g., so many non-Romans adopting the Roman &quot;package&quot; or non-Slavs adopting the Slavic one).Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-29796581173507198682012-04-29T20:45:54.623+03:002012-04-29T20:45:54.623+03:00May be Aryan Invasion theory applies to Europe tha...May be Aryan Invasion theory applies to Europe than India.Nathan Paulhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18392998104066477963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-63839663367592371032012-04-29T20:35:14.527+03:002012-04-29T20:35:14.527+03:00Dienekes
First, thank you for your answers.
I mu...Dienekes<br /><br />First, thank you for your answers.<br /><br />I must explain my words about the IE influence. <br /><br />&quot;Also, I&#39;m not sure why you don&#39;t think the Indo-Europeanization of Europe could have been involved in the differentiation of modern Atlantic Europeans vis a vis these Neolithic people; after all, IE languages arrived late to Atlantic Europe (only Celtic is really &quot;native&quot; there, and that is an Iron or at most Bronze Age phenomenon)&quot;<br /><br />I do think that Indo-Europeanization had a big role. What I do not think that specifically the Gedrosian compoent in Skandinavia can be explaied by this. And I do not think that, because this component is completely absent from some close regions influenced by IE (Polish, Ukrainan, Russian, Baltic). <br />Unless we assume that IE people where already (or from the beginning) diverged to genetically different subgroups, which is not impossible, but I do not think so.Slumberyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-84842721579630922372012-04-29T20:08:54.272+03:002012-04-29T20:08:54.272+03:00Now Gok4 does not show any Gedrosian affinity unli...<i>Now Gok4 does not show any Gedrosian affinity unlike the modern local population and that is interesting too, since I do not know any migration later that could bring this component there. The IE migration is surely not. </i><br /><br />I think archaeologists need to play catch up with the new lines of genetic evidence. For example, the main Y-chromosome lineage in modern Europe as a whole is R1 and this is lacking in three of the earliest sampling sites (Treilles, Oetzi, LBK) that form a triangle encompassing a quite big chunk of Europe.<br /><br />I would say that current archaeological models cannot really know what to do with this finding. Most archaeologists would never have anticipated that as recently as 5,000 years ago the main lineage in modern Europeans was absent from Western/Central Europe.<br /><br />So, there must have been events that have been under-appreciated by existing models.<br /><br />Also, I&#39;m not sure why you don&#39;t think the Indo-Europeanization of Europe could have been involved in the differentiation of modern Atlantic Europeans vis a vis these Neolithic people; after all, IE languages arrived late to Atlantic Europe (only Celtic is really &quot;native&quot; there, and that is an Iron or at most Bronze Age phenomenon)<br /><br /><i>However K12 shows them drastically different, components that are strong in one completely missing from another. </i><br /><br />Yes, they are quite different from each other. The possession of a common ancestral component to a high degree is not incompatible with a large degree of differentiation, because differentiation is caused by the elements that are _not_ shared in common. <br /><br />For example, in Skoglund et al. (2012), Sardinians are much more Gok4-related than Basques (95.3% vs. 65%), and the remainder in Basques. This 30% difference is surely related to the &quot;Southern&quot;/&quot;Atlantic_Baltic&quot; difference between these two populations, which is about 20% and which becomes ~34% if one uses the relationship between Gok4-related ancestry and K7b (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/04/estimating-your-gok4-related-ancestry.html).<br /><br />So, I&#39;d say the Skoglund et al. model is concordant with the Dodecad one.Dienekeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-67851112787874701562012-04-29T19:50:36.519+03:002012-04-29T19:50:36.519+03:00Dienekes
I studied your K12 spreadsheet and there...Dienekes<br /><br />I studied your K12 spreadsheet and there is one thing I find difficult to explain, namely the distribution of the Gedrosia component in Europe. <br /><br />I know that these are not ancestral populations, but somewhat virtual reference points of the model that should be interpreted carefully. Still the Gedrosian component must have eastern origin in Europe. <br /><br />However what I can see here that the peak of the Gedorosian component is in northwest Europe, particularly in Irish/British population, after that Dutch, French, Basque, but even the Norwegian and Swedish show a consistent higher Gedrosian affinity that the whole Mediterranean region (included Cypriots). In central Europe and north Balkan the Gedrosian affinity even seems to spread from west to east.<br /><br />What is the possible explanation for that? <br /><br />Now Gok4 does not show any Gedrosian affinity unlike the modern local population and that is interesting too, since I do not know any migration later that could bring this component there. The IE migration is surely not. <br /><br />And just a small footnote to Sardinians and Basques: because both populations are a bit off of the current European groups, there are people who contact them. However K12 shows them drastically different, components that are strong in one completely missing from another. OK, this type of analysis should be carefully handled for kinship determination as you told earlier, but these differences are big.Slumberyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-6314869688350894172012-04-29T19:25:22.103+03:002012-04-29T19:25:22.103+03:00&quot;I am really dying to see a forensic facial r...&quot;I am really dying to see a forensic facial reconstruction of the Farmer individual. Let&#39;s hope that some sort of a miracle will happen, and we will get to see how she looked like.&quot;<br /><br />I am kind of disapointed with facial reconstruction.<br /><br />It only works kind of well, if the reconstructor assumes the right ethnicy.<br /><br />I recall US-American forensics once reconstructed a face of a child as a &quot;White boy&quot; and no one missed this child. But someone missed a native American girl. One Forensic gave the skull a second try and reconstructed it in a way, how it must be done for such and bingo, it resembled her.<br /><br />I am sure, 2 years ago she would have been reconstructed looking like a Swede. Now, she will come out, looking like a Spaniard or something. ;-)<br /><br />Just look at various reconstructions of Oetzi. All forensic artists used the same skull for basic material, but in some he looks northern European and in some southern.Fantyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-49643832491175324202012-04-29T19:05:01.701+03:002012-04-29T19:05:01.701+03:00&quot;There are plenty of runs from you or Dodecad...&quot;There are plenty of runs from you or Dodecad in which the Fst tables shows the Mediterranean closer to Balto-Slavic or North-Euro than to Southwest-Asian.&quot;<br /><br />Thats explained with the tree software aswell. It claimed, in the last thing was, that Northeuro absorbed AtlantoMed. This would make these 2 components closer again.Fantyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-86455935172108551512012-04-29T18:16:11.681+03:002012-04-29T18:16:11.681+03:00&quot;Maybe Southwest Asian is Mediterranean modif...&quot;Maybe Southwest Asian is Mediterranean modified by more recent East African admixture, and Basques + Neolithic Mediterranean farmers come from a population that left the Middle East before this happened?&quot;<br /><br />Thats what this tree building software suggested.<br /><br />Technically it (that tree thingy) said:<br /><br />1. Northern European leaved Caucasian womb. All other recieve East African.<br /><br />2. Indians leave the womb. All others recieve more East African.<br /><br />3. Caucasus leaves the womb, all others recieve once again more East African.<br /><br />4. Finaly, Atlanto Mediteranean leaves the womb and the remaining (SW Asian) again recieves more East African.<br /><br />So, it seemed to simply tie it to various degrees of East African admixture.Fantyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07969348276219179258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7785493.post-31546943442821922852012-04-29T17:41:18.472+03:002012-04-29T17:41:18.472+03:00^ What does that have to do with anything?
The Me...^ What does that have to do with anything?<br /><br />The Mediterranean Neolithic groups most likely came from Cyprus, and probably the Levant before that.<br /><br />Their cluster comes off the same phylogenetic tree as the Southwest Asian.<br /><br />But the Mediterranean cluster now includes European alleles, while the Southwest Asian cluster includes East African alleles.<br /><br />That won&#39;t change. It&#39;ll only become clearer.<br /><br />And I bet you that when Iberian hunter-gatherers are genotyped, they&#39;ll be closer overall to modern Balts and Finns than to Iberians.Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.com