(RNS) Public disagreements over whether the Roman Catholic Church can change its teachings on Communion for remarried Catholics are growing sharper on the eve of a major Vatican summit, with conservatives led by U.S. Cardinal Raymond Burke making another push against loosening the rules.

Cardinal Raymond Burke, former archbishop of St. Louis, has been an influential player in Rome. RNS photo by David Gibson

In a conference call with reporters on Tuesday (Sept. 30), Burke, who currently heads the Vatican’s high court, singled out the leading proponent of reforms, German Cardinal Walter Kasper, and his claims that critics of his proposals are really attacking Pope Francis.

Kasper has said that the pope supports his efforts to find ways to fully reintegrate divorced and remarried Catholics into church life. The proposals have become a prime focus of the upcoming Vatican meeting, called a synod, which will convene on Sunday for two weeks to consider changes in family life in the modern world.

“I find it amazing that the cardinal claims to speak for the pope,” said Burke, the former archbishop of St. Louis, speaking from Rome. “The pope doesn’t have laryngitis. The pope is not mute. He can speak for himself. If this is what he wants, he will say so.”

“But for me as a cardinal to say that what I am saying are the words of Pope Francis? That to me is outrageous,” said Burke, who is reportedly set to be sidelined by Francis to a largely ceremonial post as patron of the Knights of Malta, a global church society based in Rome.

Burke also said whatever Francis thinks about a more lenient approach on Communion for remarried Catholics, the pope can’t change current church teaching because he and all bishops “are held to obedience to the truth” about marriage, and that cannot change.

Burke’s comments were echoed by others on the call and represent the latest effort by church conservatives to try to head off any possibility that the bishops and cardinals meeting at the Oct. 5-19 synod would open the door to changing any Catholic teaching, especially on marriage.

Under current church law, divorced Catholics who remarry without first obtaining a church annulment — a complicated and sometimes expensive venture — are barred from Communion because they are considered to be living in sin. Critics say the practice alienates otherwise faithful Catholics and perpetuates the stigma around divorce.

The high-level summit will cover a range of other hot-button issues, such as same-sex partners and the rise of cohabiting couples. The discussions will set out a road map for discussions at a larger, follow-up synod in 2015 where bishops could decide to make changes in church policies, or leave things as is.

The focus of the debate as the process gets underway has come down to whether the church can change its doctrines or practices at all — and that argument has come down to whether Rome could allow divorced and remarried Catholics to receive Communion.

Cardinal Walter Kasper greets parishioners after Mass at the Church of St. Paul the Apostle in New York City. Photo courtesy of Trace Murphy

Kasper, with the encouragement of Francis, last February opened the debate with a lengthy lecture to the world’s cardinals in which he said the church could and should adopt a more merciful approach to Catholics living in unorthodox relationships.

A test case for such adaptations, Kasper said, is on Communion for the divorced and remarried. Kasper said that would not require changing church teaching on the indissolubility of marriage but only on the “discipline” related to receiving Communion.

Opponents, including Burke, say that you can’t separate the discipline from the doctrine without undermining Christianity’s moral truths. They’ve become increasingly vocal and organized in lobbying against the reformers.

Earlier this week some 48 mainly conservative Catholic clergy and intellectuals — as well as prominent evangelical leaders such as Rick Warren — published an open letter to Francis and the synod delegates urging them not to dilute church teaching on marriage but to fight secularizing trends that they say have weakened marital standards.

All told, as many as 10 cardinals aligned with the hierarchy’s conservative wing have written in opposition to Kasper.

In an interview this week, Kasper expressed confidence that bishops at the back-to-back synods would ultimately back some change, and he hit back at critics like Burke, saying they are engaged in political maneuverings. He said they are afraid that any changes would lead to a “domino effect.”

“This is all linked to ideology, an ideological understanding of the gospel that the gospel is like a penal code,” Kasper, who is retired from a curial job but lives in Rome, told America magazine.

Critics of change in church policies are displaying “a theological fundamentalism which is not Catholic.”

“If fear is at work,” he said, “fear is always a bad counselor. The church should not act out of fear. The church should be the people of hope.”

About the author

David Gibson

David Gibson is a national reporter for RNS and an award-winning religion journalist, author and filmmaker. He has written several books on Catholic topics. His latest book is on biblical artifacts: "Finding Jesus: Faith. Fact. Forgery," which was also the basis of a popular CNN series.

Exodus 20:1-17
Disobedience against the admonition of requirements in marriage brings God’s curse as exampled by God’s curse of that suffered by Adam and Eve, bringing to them a life living in iniquity until Jesus Christ. By His life and His ministry of salvation, death, descendance into hell, resurrection and ascendance in fulfillment of the promise that if we love Him and obey His Commanfments He will gather us unto Him and we shall live forever with Him.

The Bible is clear about divorce and there are only a few reasons why
someone would be okay to get one. The Bible is clear also that hell is
real/there is no purgatory and works don’t save us! Luke 13 the whole
chapter is very clear that we must bear good fruit and that fruit is fruit of
Repentance not good works because many,many non-believers do good
works so the fruit is fruit of Repentance. Abortion is wrong and so is gay
marriage but 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 lists drunkards,idolaters,swindlers,thieves,
liars,the greedy,the sexually immoral as sins that also send people to hell
if they don’t Repent! Taking the Lords name in vain,gossip,coveting,pride,
jealousy,being mean/sharp tongues,pramarital sex are all sins that also
are wrong yet hardly ever get talked about along with getting drunk and
gambling. People seem to forget that Jesus said you are one of Mine only
if you follow Me and many will say to Me Lord,Lord and not enter heaven!
Ephesians 5:18 says don’t get drunk and 1 Corinthians 6:10 says that all
drunkards go to hell including people who still get drunk with strong wine
cause the wine Jesus made was new wine/diluted/from the fruit of the vine
plus the Bible says don’t get drunk on strong wine! It doesn’t matter how
spiritual people are if they aren’t Biblical they are still lost/headed for hell.
If you say you love Jesus then don’t follow the Bible/religion no Truth is in
you! It’s not enough to believe in Jesus. We must Repent/follow Him/Jesus!

The idea of telling divorced and remarried Catholics that they can’t take Communion is a nonsense. Who is going to police this? The local bishop? Fat chance! The local priest? Too busy! The local busybody? No standing to judge anyone!

People will do what they want to do. They mostly don’t know and don’t care about the niceties of canon law or obscure texts of scripture.

If Jesus is going to go out of his way to turn into a cracker
The least we could do is show respect and eat him.

Otherwise, Jesus goes through all that effort, which must be difficult, even for supernatural powers, and then – at the end of it – Jesus hears some priest say, “No, you can’t eat your Jesus until you go back to your ex and bring her to church and prove that you are back together.”

Here is a little reminder…You are grown ups, folks.
This entire theory of ‘god’ and ‘jesus’ and ‘communion’ is laughable.
It is hogwash.

I’d say it is Cardinal Kasper who is doing the political maneuvering and fear-mongering. Burke, Pell, and others are trying to do damage control because Kasper is trying to use the media and the secular culture to put pressure on the Church to change her teachings. Why would he do this?! It sounds like he has an agenda. Of course, the Church is Germany is falling apart, and that means less Catholics, and less influence, and less money, and less…. Oh, but Cardinal Kasper is trying to be “pastoral,” right?! Yeah, right….

Max, do you really think that your snide, condescending remarks will really have any effect on those of us who know Jesus Christ. Your existence is more doubtful than his–after all you could be computer generated! And even if you’re not, we who call ourselves Christian and are serious about our faith, do know that God exists. Without Him, my life would make no sense at all, and neither would yours.

Michael, there is no “policing,” but what needs to happen and hasn’t happened in many dioceses for years is good catechesis (teaching). Catholics need to be taught about the Eucharist as the True Presence of Jesus (just as He said in John, chapter 6) and they need to be taught that receiving unworthily is wrong/sinful (1 Corinthians 11:27-29). Once well taught, the average Catholic is expected to police himself. If he/she does receive in a state of mortal sin, it will be on their conscience and will be between them and God.
If they don’t care about “the niceties of canon law” or what the “texts of scripture” say, then why are they at Mass? Why are they Catholic?

“Without him my life would make no sense at all and neither would yours”

Speak for yourself!
You are exhibit A of the ‘ever so humble’ school of Christian pushiness.

Your favorite color is Purple and everybody else has to agree with you that Purple is our favorite color too?? How Arrogant!
For my life would mean nothing if my favorite color were not exactly THE SAME as yours??

Good grief.

I’ve earned the right to be snide.
I was a Christian for 44 years and even taught Sunday School. Had my children baptized and fell for the Jesus Cult hook, line and sinker.

Now I see a bespangled Gray-haired Virgin wearing black and red drapery telling grownups what they have to believe about marriage and divorce and what they have to do about their beliefs.

How dare these people carry on like this? it makes me sick.

And I’ll claim the right to disparage your favorite color
As long as you tell me I have to like it to.
What a despicable theory of existence!

Catholics who are divorced/remarried (without an annulment) are committing the moral sin of adultery. Why would these people want to have union with Almighty God in the Holy Eucharist if they so easily offend God and break his commandments? Let us remember that they made a solemn and voluntary promise to God and to their spouse to be faithful for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health until death does them part. Bottom line, God is faithful to His promises and expects us to be faithful as well. Why do these people want the Church to change its infallible teachings but they are not willing to change and repent from sin? Catholics that are divorced/remarried should attend Mass and pray that Almighty God gives them the grace to resolve their irregular situation. Out of respect for the Bless Sacrament, why not make a Spiritual Communion instead of demanding to physically receive the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin? Sincerity and humility are necessary conditions to approach God with love.

@Atheist Max, if you are such a die-hard atheist why are you wasting your time in religion news website? Is it possibly because way down deep inside it pricks your conscience to have blasphemed against God? St. Augustine said: “Nobody denies God save one whose interest it is that there be no God.” As the great Russian philosopher and writer Fyodor Dostoevsky said: “If God does not exist, everything is permitted”

I’m a skeptic on the thought that people are uneducated and we need to throw more book learning at them to enlighten. Tons of books out there, even a few good ones on relationships and marriage and such. People still don’t pay attention.

The judgment that remarried Catholics are unworthy to receive Communion is a matter of policy, not doctrine. The question is simple: do some remarried Catholics need what Christ provides in the sacraments more than we need to excommunicate them?

Big surprise! Burke is a monstrous hypocrite. He wallows in his pretense of priestly glory, episcopal royalty. He is typical of the phony types that Benedict promoted. Francis has waited too long to rid the church of Burke’s contemptible influence. Burke even had the nerve to go on EWTN, Mother Angelica’s super-conservative TV station that pretends to be Catholic, and bad-talk Francis not long after his election. So much for accepting the so-called will of God, right?

Burke has thoroughly defied Vatican II throughout his priesthood. He has pretended he is pope of a sub-church of his own. He insists on being glorified in church rituals. He instituted religious orders in his own image. And he got away with all that under the papacies of same-thinking men like John Paul II and Benedict. It is a form of salvation that Francis recognizes that the clerical sex scandal that John Paul and Benedict both tried to hide, along with types like Burke, are still threatening the demise of the Catholic Church.

It would have been more respectable for Francis to just fire Burke from his position at the Signatura and not pretend the respectability of the ceremonial post of patron of the Knights of Malta. It would be better to get rid of all men like Burke along with the Knights of Malta, the Knights of Columbus, and all those remnants of imperialism in the church. There wouldn’t be many current bishops left.

Then follow the practice of the Anglican Communion in which both the people in the pews and the clergy are the ones who choose their bishops. Break up the vast, corrupt, and thoroughly inefficient system of Vatican domination of the church. Get rid of the “College of Cardinals.” The people of God, both pew people and clergy in parishes, dioceses, nationally, and world-wide are thoroughly capable of managing their church at all levels.

The church would have a much cleaner image, more like Jesus whom it claims as leader, than since the non-Christian Emperor Constantine took over domination of the church of Jesus at the Council of Nicaea–and thoroughly ruined it. Ever since then, dictators have betrayed every chance of the church resembling Jesus and distorted it in the mold of a corrupt monarchy.

And what greater example of hypocrisy is needed than the words of Burke himself asserting that the pope does not need Cardinal Kasper, that he can speak for himself. From the time of John Paul II, through Benedict’s patronizing of Burke, just as he patronized so many corrupt church leaders of his own and Burke’s kind, Burke has been speaking as if his mind and voice were equal to all the popes of all time, equal to Jesus, who is supposed to be the image of the church.

Nonsense.
God very likely does not exist
and yet there are very decent laws.

Morality has nothing to do with God. If it did, there would be no morality. Our morality is clearly part of our neurology and humanity – something given to us through evolution. Evolutionary Biology has proven it repeatedly.

” if you are such a die-hard atheist why are you wasting your time in religion news website?”

1. ‘die hard’? I do not believe in God. how is that ‘die hard’?
You don’t believe in mermaids. Does that mean you are ‘die hard’ against mermaids?

2. RNS is a NEWS site, not a Christian Salvation site. Go to Patrobertson dot com to get your soul saved (if that is what you call it).

3. I study religion the way a doctor studies a disease. I am studying how it is spread and why people get so caught up in its infection. I am looking for safe ways to treat it and to help people get away from it.

4. Most news is connected to religion in one way or another. Religion is usually the culprit poisoning situations all around the world – as in ISIS, Al Qeuda, Catholic League, Zionism, Women’s rights, Gay rights, AIDS prevention, Supreme Court decision, Business lobbies, etc.

I care about the truth.
I care about false claims.
I care about people and the theocratic impulse which subverts our freedom.

Most important, I care about the Separation of Church and State.

Evangelicals are spending millions of dollars a year on faith-based intrusions like these:

No one is worthy to receive Communion. Everyone needs what Christ provides. However, this is Communion, which means that everyone that receives is not only in Communion with Christ and the other members of the Church, but also live their lives in Communion with the teachings of the Church. Yes, all sin and fall short, but those that recognize their sin go to Confession and ask forgiveness are in Communion with the Church and are therefore able to receive Communion. Someone that is in a “second marriage” is by Catholic definition living in adultery because there cannot be a second marriage until a spouse dies or the “first marriage” is shown to not have been valid for any number of reasons.

The Catholic Church should not have a blanket ban on divorce. Clearly there are New Testament reasons for it, like adultery. Most sane people would add desertion or one’s life being in danger.

However, American culture is the opposite. People get divorced at the drop of a hat. In the days of Christ, men would divorce their wives if they burned the food. Today, from what I can tell from observation, women divorce men for reasons that aren’t much more compelling.

Either way, America is Divorce Land but the Catholic Church is the opposite extreme. What’s needed is a biblically balanced view.

This is an excellent idea! By shoring up traditional marriage amongst hetero Catholics and making sure they obey the rule against divorce, we help fortify the institution so it can stand strong against the assault from what popular Catholic RNS commenter Doc Anthony calls the “gay gestapo.”

There no conservative and progressive Catholics. There are Catholics and there are heretics. God said he hates divorce. Jesus said remarriage is adultery. Unrepentant adulters will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. And taking communion while in mortal sin is a curse.

all this bickering over nonsense all the while your holy men continue to rape our children and your god does nothing to prevent it.
I’ll be back to remind you each and everytime you catholics forget
your aiding abetting known criminals and continue to do nothing about it.
you’re proof positive there is no god worthy of any humans worship.
I suggest you repent. but not really.
you all are as mentally ill as the repentbothttp://www.suzyspellcheck.com/repentbot-v-1-1/

With all those “law-abiding” Roman Catholics IN THE WORLD, you know the ones, the “just” and “righteous” with all the sinless Mary faces, feeding on the … uh, you know … do ya think their might be angels among them? Think about it, gilhcan … all that flesh and all that blood consumed week after week, year after year … for how long? Shouldn’t we have billions of THE ANOINTED walking about the world? Making up for all the unjust—all us sinner types, the heterodox types, and the lessers?
Instead, what makes up that “body” in the INSTITUTION calling itself Christ’s Church? The same one having covered for the mounds of sex abuse, corruption, selling babies for money and numbers, discrimination, abusing women and children in work houses, sending ‘disillusioned’ catechumens into unsafe areas that they might increase their image as somehow holy. Look what is happening in that “chosen” organization of such pomp and purity. It’s a doggone mess. Where is the Yah of “the Weh” … you know, that of: I am the Weh … the truth … and the Life … no ‘ONE’ comes to the Father except THROUGH me. What is ME? I don’t think they have REALIZED this part yet.

What are they going to do when the Vatican changes their thinking on that Transubstantiation theory because they realize they can no longer hold their place in politics while acting as GOD HIMSELF. It’s a bit of a contradiction, you see … the worldly and the virginal—something akin to speaking with a forked tongue—plowing ox and ass—that two-fold message of the cross, having to do with prelest (this word scares the hell out of them … or scares them into it, depending).

It makes no sense to talk about the Church as if she were a political organization. Truth is not a matter of democratic consensus and the Church understands this very well. It’s not the Pope’s job to rewrite Church teaching, reinterpret it, or rewrite it. Pope Francis understands this very well. The Synod is not some parliamentary proceeding where Church teaching will come to a vote. This misunderstanding stems from a misunderstanding about why and how the Church teaches what she teaches. Church teaching is not so arbitrary as to be simply put up to a vote; especially a teaching on faith and morals which would have to come form an Ex Cathedra proclamation or a Church Council. Lastly, there is no “conservative” or “liberal” wing in the Catholic Church, she transcends such transient political divisions. However, there are those more devoted to the totality of Her teachings and there are those who would like to “rewrite” some of Her more difficult teachings to make them easier to take. Luckily, the Holy Spirit protects the Church from such hasty miscalculations that would abandon the fullness of the Truth.

Thanks for responding, Mark. I’ve heard the chat about “worthiness” too. On the other hand, Jesus calls his disciples friends, and the apostle Paul also witnesses to the reality that as believers, we are the adopted children of God. Do Christians live in a state of spiritual whiplash, one moment in a slime puddle and the other arrayed in front of the throne of God?

I’m a bigger skeptic on the adultery meme. It sounds like a convenient exercise in name-calling. But if a first marriage ends, it ends. And if persons in broken marriages try the married life again, and need the graced power of the sacraments, I have no argument against it. The Orthodox accept it. As a mortal sin, adultery must have an intent. Not just the label of watchers.

It’s not normally within the Church’s role to police those who transgress the rules, the sole exception being prominent figures who blatantly violate the Commandments and who may not be allowed to take Communion to avoid scandal. Catholics are expected to regulate their own behaviour according to God’s law as enlightened by the Church. We’re answerable to God whose own policing can be very efficient.

@Ron Guerra -“Catholics who are divorced/remarried (without an annulment) are committing the moral sin of adultery.”

Actually this statement is not accurate. They only commit adultery if their original marriage was sacramental; they are, however, committing the sin of disobedience since they are not following the Church’s teaching that they need to look at their original marriage to see if valid consent was given, before they can approach the sacraments (Not just communion).

“Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed” is said by everyone before approaching the table for Eucharist. How do you reconcile that with your claim that the unworthy should not receive?

Tom-Two guys were next to Jesus on the Cross and only one guy went to
heaven? Why? Only one guy Repented? Only Repenting saves us so
good works are nice but only Repenting/trusting in Christ saves us and
many confuse purgatory with Abrahams bosom where the Old Testament
saints went before Jesus went to the Cross. The Bible is clear that once
someone goes to hell the judgment is final. The rich man was in hell and
he was in agony so he wanted to warn his brothers but was told that he
couldn’t cross over. Obedience is better than sacrifice so people can do
all the good works they want but if they don’t Repent they still go to hell.
Luke 13 says we must bear good fruit which is the fruit of Repentance
and have a change of heart about our sin like the thief next to Jesus on
the Cross who changed his heart about his sin/Repented and he went to
heaven. The other guy next to Jesus on the Cross didn’t Repent/change
his heart about sin and he went to hell. Only Repenting and trusting in Christ saves us! Bible to says Repent or perish! We all must Repent!

Watchers: those who attend to the behavior of others more than their own, busybodies, the Tempe Police, Pharisees, etc..

Worthiness is a judgment rendered by God, and we might–just might–be able to say something about how it applies or not to our own person. People who want to usurp the role of Jesus and judge others, I think we could pay less attention to them for good reason.

But, Biblical versions of divorce are extremely husband-centric (as wives are considered no better than property in Scripture). The Bible is a terrible guide to marriage in a modern world. Where women are not considered property and are expected to be treated like human beings by their spouses.

Deuteronomy 24:1
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house…

“Matthew 5:31
“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’

We have no-fault divorce for some very compelling mundane reasons. It is hardly “at the drop of a hat” unless you are people of means.

In the past requiring evidence of fault involved encouraging married couples to lie, commit perjury or create phony incidents of adultery to end a marriage which was clearly over. “Irreconcilable differences” wasn’t even a cause of action in many states.

Divorce in Biblical terms is always husband-centric. The husband can get away with anything, as long as he refused to grant the divorce to her. It is still a major issue with Ultra-Orthodox Jews. One rabbi even ran a racket where husbands were kidnapped for hire and tortured until they consented to a divorce.

We as a culture find it much easier to abide by the notion of marriage being conditional than we are of encouraging systematic cruelty, lying and perjury.

And Seers, Todd, which one might find in an Orthodox Church, are not the same as Watchers. A Seer, can, if acting in favor of certain parties or individuals rather than for “the body as a whole,” appear to behave as Temple Police. I knew of a Seer who told the priest (while he was sitting in another room) that a woman having confessed before receiving the Eucharist did not confess ALL that she should have before receiving. The priest, in this case, not a Seer, needs to understand the purpose of this information. He should not use this in a way that singles out the woman as being sinful. I made the point to the Orthodox priest that it is very possible the woman did not see all that she needed to confess, and was not intending any cover up. She is not a Seer and not able to see what the Seer sees (that’s a tongue twister—sort of like, Sally sells seashells down by the seashore) 🙂

Anyhow, Seers should really be looking for serious trouble spots in the parishes … like people masquerading as something they are not, those with ill intent, theft, child molesters … Initially, I believe the Seers of Scripture are the Bishops, but you know how things are with biblical understandings …

I believe the whole point of the synod is about how to bring about the people in all different circumstances back into the fold, it is not to change any teaching. Jesus said He will build His Church and we have to trust that He will have a hand in every aspect of Church building

@Deacon Harbey.. you’re confused, I was obviously referring to Catholics that have a valid sacramental marriage and have divorced/remarried. That’s why I specifically wrote “without an annulment”. Therefore, it’s very accurate and true that these “catholics” are committing the mortal sin of adultery if they have sexual relations with their “new” spouses.

If you want to cut down on the divorce rate, then cut down on the marriage rate. Millions of people are forgoing marriage and living together instead. It is a better solution for many. If things don’t work out, no big deal.

Sex before marriage should not be forbidden, it should be a requirement.
Contraception should be freely available everywhere.

If you marry a virgin you are more likely to end up in divorce or misery.
Want more broken homes? Shove religion on everyone.
Virgins like the Cardinal know nothing about this matter and they are useless on the question of marriage.

Thanks be to God, I didn’t seek a divorce or an annulment when I discerned that He didn’t want me to. So much confusion is being produced at every level in our church. Those who clearly do not have a relationship with Christ seem to think that He didn’t really mean what He said. They label believers as ‘fundamentalists’ in order to try to discredit what the faithful are saying. We are warned very directly in 1 Corinthians :
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.*
28
A person should examine himself,* and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment* on himself.
30
That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

Is it love to tell someone that sacrilege is no big deal? Are these Cardinals not supposed to be loving and guiding the flock?

The Bible does say to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith and
man shall perish because of their lack of knowledge so we need to preach
against all sin and preach the whole Truth not just part of it because Jesus
said many will say to Me Lord,Lord and not enter heaven! We must Repent!

The only appropriate way for us to approach and receive the body and blood of Christ, is in a ‘state of grace’, without un-confessed (and un-repented) mortal sins. We must also approach Him humbly, having done our best to prepare ourselves. I have been waiting for over 9 years now, for my wife to come to her senses regarding our marriage. We have been separated that long, but thanks be to God, I didn’t seek a divorce or an annulment when I discerned that He didn’t want me to. So much confusion is being produced at every level in our church. Those who clearly do not have a relationship with Christ seem to think that He didn’t really mean what He said. They label believers as ‘fundamentalists’ in order to try to discredit what the faithful are saying. We are warned very directly in 1 Corinthians :
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.*
28
A person should examine himself,* and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment* on himself.
30
That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

Is it love to tell someone that sacrilege is no big deal? Are these Cardinals not supposed to be loving and guiding the flock?

“But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)

“DO NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE…IF HE IS GUILTY..”
(1 Corinthians 5:11)

“have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonian 3:14)

“For whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” (2 John 1:11)

If you think this sounds absolutely absurd, unfair and wicked
welcome to your religion.
This is the WORD OF THE LORD.

“So you popped into this world knowing everything you know today?
You missed the point.”

No, Max, it is you who misses many points, as anyone can clearly see from the many posts of yours TELLING everyone how childish and WRONG they are for what they believe. You have tried to make FAITH an indecent and dangerous thing, but what you do not realize is that with many things, including Atheist Max, there is good, and there is bad. Try showing some SENSE and SENSITIVITY toward others who EXPERIENCE, DEFINE, LIVE, LOVE and GROW differently from you. Are you at all capable of living in a society that differs from your one view point? Or are you going to continue in arrogance and destruction of ALL who LOVE in ways that you cannot at this time understand. You are in what we call Spiritual Warfare. Let it out, buddy, go ahead and rock the boats … you might drown a few in the process, but I know how to swim Max … I know how to swim. Your words merely demonstrate the avenue I have already seen with one like you. I just feel concern for your family … did you rip all memory and tradition from them when you decided you did not believe—that you would not believe—and that you are now the knower of all minds and hearts and experiences? Do you refuse them voice at home, Max, if they happen to say something that you disagree with? What of your wife? Do you belittle and degrade her as she tries to share her thoughts on faith? I have seen what comes of a verbal abuser like you, Max … They grow depressed … very depressed.

I can’t speak for Max, but what I get from what he and many other atheists say is that there is zero evidence of a god or gods and that the belief there is has resulted in religions which have been very deleterious. That being said, if I had to choose a religion it would be Nordic. But there are hundreds or thousands of other religions which are now called myths which have as much credibility as Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, etc.

Terry-The reason you can trust the Bible is because of prophecy
accuracy. The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel is a good book to
check out. Read Romans 1:18-25 in the Bible. For someone to
look out at the universe and say that it just came about just by
some random chance it takes more faith to believe in that than
to believe in God. Jesus is the Messiah/the only way to heaven!
Only one God created the world//only one God went to the Cross
and that’s because there is only one God…the God of the Bible.

Maris,
Thanks, that is just the bottom line.
The Anglican call it Sunday school, the Pentecostal call it church study, we Catholics say its catechism , but not many enforce this and make it mandatory for all, this synod should make guiding laws for the older faithful towards being consistent with the catholic teachings and doctrine.
We catholic adults are just faced with whatever we do to receive communion and largely won’t leave our daily activities for church duties while the young attend these catechism to be able to receive 1st holy communion and later be confirmed, once they achieve these, they fall back gradually.
We need not change or dilute the marriage clause in our doctrine, it strictness makes the catholic marriage the best recognised in the world. Even Protestants in Nigeria come to marry in the Catholic Churches, get the certificate you can never be granted divorce with and get back worshipping in their Protestant churches.

Once a month we have communion at my congregational church, part of the UCC. The minister clearly states that everyone is welcome at the table regardless of age, gender, economic status, sexual orientation, ability, and that member and non-member, and all believers and non-believers are welcome to participate. It’s that last bit that fills me with joy – that our table is open to non-believers as a gesture of love and inclusion. That is the true spirit of communion. Jesus was not picky – he in fact chose to sup with the poor and marginalized.

Wait.
You said, “people (like you) masquerading as something they are not … for clearly, you should not have been teaching.”

I once believed in Santa. I do not believe now.
That does not mean I was ‘masquerading as something I was not’ as you said.
The point is, people change their minds as they grow and learn – you find this an alien concept.

“You are in what we call Spiritual Warfare.”

That is a claim. What evidence are you basing this on?

“I just feel concern for your family … did you rip all memory and tradition from them when you decided you did not believe—that you would not believe”

So emotionally I owe it to my family to lie? One does not ‘choose’ to believe or not. If I try to not believe in gravity I will still not jump off a building to test it! Belief comes from exploring the evidence. If you have no evidence for something you would be foolish to believe it.

“you are now the knower of all minds and hearts and experiences?”

I don’t claim to KNOW a darn thing. You keep making claims – each one is entirely unsupported.

“Do you refuse them voice at home, Max, if they happen to say something that you disagree with?”
I’m sorry to have ever read your claims. You clearly do not know the difference between answering a question and making a statement.

“What of your wife? Do you belittle and degrade her as she tries to share her thoughts on faith?”
My wife is an Atheist like me. We are skeptical of people who make wild claims.

“I have seen what comes of a verbal abuser like you, Max … They grow depressed … very depressed.”
Nobody is verbally abusing anybody. If someone wants to defend beheadings and the religions which support beheadings (as you do) go right ahead. I hardly think it is verbal abuse however to be honest and call such a defense unsupportable.

“Slay them wherever you find them” – Surah (Q’uran)
If you want to be a religious person and believe in Gods and defend Holy Texts, be prepared to be challenged by Atheists and skeptics like me. If you can’t take it, don’t make the claims.

All of the arrogance is coming from people who make claims about God. None of these claims have been supported with a whiff of evidence and in the meantime people are being killed at the direction of these claims.

You can speak about your own experiences. You believed in the “God” of Roman Catholicism. It did not give you what you desired. You left. Okay … but that make every single person NOT having had your obviously dull and fruitless experience WRONG? Think again, Max … you cannot continue to accuse and charge everyone experiencing differently. I am not of religion because it is not necessary for me to experience as I do. You got a problem with that?

As for telling lies … do not try to squirm out of the corner you have put yourself into.

I tried to be your friend but you are incapable of friendship unless they hate as you obviously do in your twisting of statements about people MAKING CLAIMS, as you say … I share what I experience. Is that so darn difficult for you to get through that biased noggin of yours? Because I find Holy Scripture and Gnostic Literature worthy of my attention, I am childish, and dangerous. Good grief, Max, you are your own worst enemy!

I asked you about YOUR claims.
You rejected the opportunity to explain them – so fine. You don’t owe anyone an explanation. But don’t expect me to respect your claims in the first place if you don’t know why you made them.

I am addressing those claims made by of Cardinal Burke and Cardinal Walter Kasper.

“This is all linked to…an ideological understanding..that the gospel is like a penal code,” said Kasper.

Inherent in this article are two claims:
1. Cardinal Burke – the Gospel is a list of rules.
2. Cardinal Kasper – the Gospel is a preachment of inclusion.

Both claims are supported by the Gospel texts. A person can choose either one or both.
But the Gospel texts THEMSELVES are just a bunch of unfounded and contradictory claims.

So Cardinal Burke (and Cardinal Kasper) are transparently shaping their own claims to suit their own prejudices using other claims which are themselves fraudulent.

And people suffer as a result. It is immoral. That is religion.
Needless suffering is the price people pay for false claims.

Yes. And so can you.
But I do not make any claims I cannot explain or back up with evidence.

You are free to keep claiming ‘Spirit/God is this’ and ‘Spirit/god is that’ but don’t expect people to understand a word of it if you can’t explain it.
I just don’t understand why anyone would make such claims and not be eager to explain why they made them. Instead you are defensive. *shrug*

….to follow the Anglican Communion where people have a say in the selection of bishops… how is that working out? The Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years and will be here until Gabriel blows his horn. And the ‘gates of hell shall not prevail against Her’. Pope Francis will not change doctrine or teaching.
When it comes to these weighty subjects as marriage and family, it is not just a matter of discipline as Cardinal Kasper would have it, it is a matter of Church doctrine and teaching. Sit tight and pray a lot.

i understand that as a “devout” athiest I may lack a certain appreciation for all the inspired and informed comments, but I suggest that from anyone’s objective perspective these comments are “bat [expletive deleted]” crazy. Purgatory, no
Purgatory: repentance, no repentance: FOLKS…..If God did exist, I am sure he/she would say to put other humans before everything else… Including him/her.

Look at what’s said here in the name of God. The most hateful, bigoted, and unhumanistic comments espoused by anyone. These are certainly not words your Jesus would espouse……

Lets remember that Jesus didn’t exclude Judas from the Last Supper, nor did he refuse to share that first Eucharist with the apostles who he knew were going to deny and betray him outright. Although Jesus was always explicitly clear about the need not to sin again, and was in no way ambiguous about proper sexual behavior, his actions in supporting the woman to be stoned for adultery were a slap in the face for the self-righteous and hypocritical religious leaders who seemed to be intent on claiming they were doing God’s by a simple adherence to religious and Biblical doctrines, but acting in complete violation of the true essence of Gods will. This is not my theory. This story was included in the Bible specifically to address this point.

Perhaps he still senses there is something greater in the Universe that explains why he doesn’t view himself and his loved ones simply as lumps of intelligent meat. He just doesn’t think its a big bearded spirit-man sitting up in heaven…wherever that is ….communicating with us….however he manages that outside of the laws of physics….. and being lectured to by people who have no more rational justification for their belief about God than they would have if they said they believed in Santa Claus.
It should be no surprise to anyone that the Universe may have an infinite level of complexity and meaning, far beyond what we are capable of ever perceiving, let alone understanding. So it is going to look mysterious and perhaps unintelligible. If you doubt this, just look at every other species on the planet…..does your dog perceive the existence of the Internet? I doubt it. Does an ape understand why a bolt of lightning causes a loud boom? So I am not sure exactly why a few additional DNA mutations result in something now capable of understand the infinite complexity of the Universe.

But that’s precisely what Vatican II did! So why are all the hard right wingers rejecting Vatican II. In Church language that is HERESY…and there is no way to weasel out of that. Also the Pope speaking ex-Cathedra is another source of God’s teaching. Now of course many people outside the Church think that is nonsense, but look at it this way. In the eyes of God, christians have to know that by accepting the truth of certain teachings in faith and morals, that they can have the confidence that they are believing in the right thing essential to their salvation. But they cannot believe that unless they also believe that God ensures that certain functions of the Church will not err on matters of faith and morals. In the Catholic Church there are only two sources for this.
1. An official Church Council
2. An ex-cathedra announcement by the Pope.

So it makes sense that God will protect and inspire those whose job it is to communicate the essence of the faith.
By far the most dangerous issue resulting from Cardinal Burke’s behavior is that he is insidiously undermining the teaching authority of the Church. It is absurd to say that you should not follow the teaching of the official Church but only accept it if it happens to agree with his version of the teachings. Every heretic in the history of the Church has always started from that position.

I disagree. Burke is attempting to undermine the teaching authority of the Catholic Church simply because a statement by the Pope does not align with his ultra-conservative interpretation of the Church’s teachings. Many of his followers, with his insidious encouragement, openly reject Vatican II. The same Church teaching he claims to uphold says outright that that is heresy, because it denies that God has the ability to ensure that the official teachings of the Church can be trusted. I certainly understand his desire to ensure that we don’t simply water down the existing teachings on marriage and similar things. But that is not what the Pope is trying to do.

Well Jesus actually invited Judas to the First Eucharist even though he knew that Judas was about to betray him, and he invited the other apostles despite fact that he knew they were about to deny him.

opheliart: But surely you are the one who believes that anyone who differs from you will end up suffering unbearable agony in hell for all eternity. If that is the basis of your faith, surely Max has a point, even if you don’t accept his atheism.

I find it completely unbelievable that in a broken-hearted world, we are still arguing whether and on what conditions the love and patronage of Christ and His Church should be extended to the broken-hearted. If there was one overriding message that Christ left us, it was love… love of God and of our neighbour. Yet the Church bickers like an adolescent child over the conditions under which that love and acceptance should be given. There were no conditions to Christ’s love. And there should be no conditions to ours

same old garbage any surprise that the church is all but dead in w europe and over `1`/3 of catholics in the usa rarely attend servicesbbtw many pollsa showsthat catholics under 30, 75-80 % support legal civil law marriage for gays