Re: Climate change

I can only quote George Will who was talking about "global cooling". Not in his exact words but he said climates have been changing for millions of years and they will go right on changing.

So what we want to change is our part in causing it if we have a part. In other words, don't shoulder all the blame and waste time or worry on what we didn't even cause. I truly think that if we'd make the distinction better, the public might accept our efforts better and cooperate better. Admit to them that climates will change but we can be of help by working on our small share in that. This isn't the first time the oceans have risen and they will rise again.

Of course, all scientists know this but are we admitting it loudly enough for whose who think we are just off-loading the entire situation onto them and their daily activities? Then they might understand us inventing "new and better" (automobiles, central heat, air conditioning, and batteries by the zillions), enticing them to buy and then telling them not to drive, cut back the thermostat, recycle the batteries.

Does that make sense? Sorry if I sound a bit pedantic. Just my thoughts.

Re: Climate change

Ban rice and eat a vegan diet? OK. It can be done but some parts of the world are coming to get us. What do they get for a staple? Not saying it can't be done; just saying we've raised a new problem. Even in America, rice becomes one of the staples in a vegan or vegetarian diet.

Re: Climate change

On this topic, out of every bad comes some good? June issue of Scientific American tells what is happening due to the Arctic ice melting. "A Northwest Passage for the Internet". With more open waters, new, shorter internet cables are being laid between continents. A cable from Asia to Europe will cross the Circle. Another will be laid from Nome to Japan and eastern Asia. Still another will enable remote communities in northern Canada and Alaska to have high speed internet. Another from Prudhoe Bay to London.

That and more if the waters stay open. Of course, if they freeze up again, that's another story. We already have cables across the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans (much longer). Maybe we'll keep those in working condition?

Re: Climate change

Hmmm... a little drastic maybe? Cure worse than the disease? Surely, the idea is to solve the problem while maintaining our dissolute lifestyles, no?

That was my point, delivered in a Swiftian style. Humans alter climate, it's what we do. The best we can do is mitigation of the most catastrophic effects. Maybe. If we're lucky.

Elvin, note there are many past threads here on this topic. The search function is your friend.

I'm reluctant to venture another imaginative idea after getting slapped down like an errant schoolboy by ecoglite for suggesting we could get clean energy from volcanoes. But I think there are similar fix-it type solutions to climate change that would enable us to maintain high welfare societies - that are sound in principle, but in practice still require a lot of thinking about.

Re: Climate change

Go back to 1970 and make the necessary drastic changes to human populations, diets, lifestyles and economies.

Sure, climate changes all the time, but it usually takes 20,000 years to make the alterations we've managed in 200. It's not the change that's causing trouble; it's the rate of change.There is nothing we can do to prevent it now: it's already happening, and it will keep accelerating. The arctic ice and glaciers will melt ever faster, the rivers will flood and then dry up, islands and coastlines will keep disappearing; species will keep going extinct; crops will keep failing; Alberta and California will keep burning.

We could perhaps mitigate the effects on some populations by taking the drastic actions Braininvat mentioned, plus others, like not manufacturing weapons, plastics or pesticides, not transporting shiploads of frivolous overpackaged consumer crap - or overfed, self-indulgent cruise-line passengers - across the oceans... I'm sure we can all think of more.

But it would be bad for the economy that caused it in the first place, so i guess we'd rather die.

uninfinite -- we could get clean energy from volcanoes.

If you live on top of a vulcano, have at it. Or a geyser, or the tide, or fermenting hops, or whatever your local energy source is. Just don't try to build a pipeline from Mt. St Helen to Chicago.

But I think there are similar fix-it type solutions to climate change that would enable us to maintain high welfare societies - that are sound in principle, but in practice still require a lot of thinking about.

There are lots of technological ideas that might work - or kill us all, if they don't. And it does no harm to think about them. But since time is no longer on our side, it would be good to get on with the practical side while we're thinking.

Re: Climate change

Go back to 1970 and make the necessary drastic changes to human populations, diets, lifestyles and economies.

Sure, climate changes all the time, but it usually takes 20,000 years to make the alterations we've managed in 200. It's not the change that's causing trouble; it's the rate of change.There is nothing we can do to prevent it now: it's already happening, and it will keep accelerating. The arctic ice and glaciers will melt ever faster, the rivers will flood and then dry up, islands and coastlines will keep disappearing; species will keep going extinct; crops will keep failing; Alberta and California will keep burning.

We could perhaps mitigate the effects on some populations by taking the drastic actions Braininvat mentioned, plus others, like not manufacturing weapons, plastics or pesticides, not transporting shiploads of frivolous overpackaged consumer crap - or overfed, self-indulgent cruise-line passengers - across the oceans... I'm sure we can all think of more.

But it would be bad for the economy that caused it in the first place, so i guess we'd rather die.

uninfinite -- we could get clean energy from volcanoes.

If you live on top of a vulcano, have at it. Or a geyser, or the tide, or fermenting hops, or whatever your local energy source is. Just don't try to build a pipeline from Mt. St Helen to Chicago.

But I think there are similar fix-it type solutions to climate change that would enable us to maintain high welfare societies - that are sound in principle, but in practice still require a lot of thinking about.

There are lots of technological ideas that might work - or kill us all, if they don't. And it does no harm to think about them. But since time is no longer on our side, it would be good to get on with the practical side while we're thinking.

Serpent, I know you are right in everything you say. My mind was just on the things I hear the skeptics say. And, of course, the economy has a great deal to do with it. Besides the things you say, there are the businesses that are out to make money off the fact. They offer to take our recyclables but they want us to pay them to take these. Not all do. There are companies who take the recyclables and do whatever it is they do. Best Buy is one. I have given them an old monitor, a worn out telephone, several batteries, etc. They just take them. But others are charging horrible prices to do the same.

I guess I'm just saying we need to see both sides of the problem and then see both sides working to solve the problem. And - if they exists - we need to see the numbers that prove this speeded up change. Otherwise, we have nothing to use to convince anybody.

PS Our more recent electronics come with a recycling surcharge built into the price - like bottle deposits. The retailer should not be charging extra: it's their duty to send the stuff to be dismantled safely.

Re: Climate change

For the knowledgeable individual who participated on this discussion i really appreciate your thoughts. Now im done with my work but i will continue to keep intouch with the forum. I will cite your names on my work

Re: Climate change

Here in the Philippines we experience its effect we have experience the strongest typhoon in world history Yolanda, shocking but this is for real and i have experience it myself. So its time for us to act now regarding this matter

Re: Climate change

Yes it should, and should have been considered an emergency many times over the last few decades, like every time there is some uncharacteristically strong weather event. But nothing gets done about it, because the the political cycle gives the leaders 4 years to plan the fix, execute the plan, and take a bow.And besides, 'climate change is the effect'. It is not the problem. To many GHG is one aspect of the global warming, which is the result of industrial activities which increases proportionally with population.

Re: Climate change

I know, but I comment on every thread on the subject, anywhere I find them, just in case of fresh eyes. I'm getting beamed up pretty soon, so I won't have to cope with the worst of it, but the young need all the warnings and information they can get.Ours isn't the first civilization that dies of its own [Who you gonna believe, your boss/priest/guru/president or your eyes?] stubborn denial of reality, and it may not even the last. The survivors, if any, need to prepare.

Re: Climate change

Yes, I should look for it and post the link, but I was looking for it because of Italy and couldn't find it. I just had the feeling I was about to be repeating myself. Seems the Italian government is worried about a decline in population so they are paying the country to have more babies. Just that short term thinking we need in leadership roles. Immigration is not considered for obvious reasons.

Maybe Trump can send all Italians back to Italy as part of his cultural reassignment program.

Re: Climate change

Watson » May 23rd, 2016, 4:37 pm wrote:Yes, I should look for it and post the link, but I was looking for it because of Italy and couldn't find it. I just had the feeling I was about to be repeating myself. Seems the Italian government is worried about a decline in population so they are paying the country to have more babies. Just that short term thinking we need in leadership roles. Immigration is not considered for obvious reasons.

Maybe Trump can send all Italians back to Italy as part of his cultural reassignment program.

Don't give him any ideas, Watson. He is already of a mind to deport anyone not of his own ilk. And we surely don't want to lose our Italians. At least not the ones in my family or among my friends. They have been real blessings. It was two brothers from Italy who set my older brother on his feet and gave him a new lease on life. We shall always count our blessings.

Nope - not giving up our Italians. Now, if you want to talk about deporting somebody ............... <G>

Re: Climate change

elvinjansol » May 24th, 2016, 12:23 am wrote:Your thoughts are good my friends but i need a concrete way to resolve the issue. Dont you have any ways on your countries where we can also adopt to resolve this and help us.

Our brash young Prime Minister put the climate issue very high on his agenda, including the allocation of hefty funds to help poorer nations make the technological adjustments. Unfortunately, our most powerful special interest bloc is the oil industry (to which the official opposition adhere like barnacles on a rotting hull), so he's having a tough time reconciling progress with the economy. Also, the press are far more excited about his accidentally jostling an opposition MP than in whatever plans he may have to save our collective bacon. The third party has a renegade faction that its old hacks are busy renouncing: https://leapmanifesto.org/en/the-leap-manifesto/#manifesto-content

Re: Climate change

The bad news is it will take generations of population shrinkage, economic depression and industrial and technological decline. But we can do it, We can do it, .....................

Interesting points. The ideal population for our little world is thought to be about 2 billion, yet we have managed to infest it with about 4 times that. The article suggests the world may self adjust towards the ideal population, but the standard of living of this adjusted population will be lower than it is for people today.This strongly implies that the wealthy upper layers of affluence are extremely dependent on the over population to support their lifestyle of excess.

Re: Climate change

This strongly implies that the wealthy upper layers of affluence are extremely dependent on the over population to support their lifestyle of excess.

Oh, yeah! The bigger and more complicated (not to say inexplicable) a system is, the easier to steal from it. The more fragmented and alienated a society, the easier it is to pit one faction against another, exploit their paranoia and sell them all bullets. The more anxious and frustrated a population is, the easier to lead it into crazy ideas, crazy actions. The more scared they are, the more insurance they buy. And, of course, the more labour is available, the less it's worth on a buyer's market.

Re: Climate change

According to UNEP's 9th "Global Trends in Renewable Energy Investment 2015", prepared by the Frankfurt School-UNEP Collaborating Centre for Climate & Sustainable Energy Finance and Bloomberg New Energy Finance, the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and Bloomberg New Energy Finance — the past year brought a rebound of green energy investments worldwide with a surge of a solid 17% to $270 Billion.

Global Trends in Renewable Energy Investment 2016

Renewable Energy Investments: Major Milestones Reached, New World Record Set

According to UNEP's 10th "Global Trends in Renewable Energy Investment 2016", prepared by the Frankfurt School-UNEP Collaborating Centre for Climate & Sustainable Energy Finance and Bloomberg New Energy Finance, the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and Bloomberg New Energy Finance all investments in renewables totalled $286 billion in 2015, some 3% higher than the previous record in 2011.