If you're taking out more than you're putting in, you're not paying for it. If you were paying for it, you'd be getting billed!

I don't understand why you seem to find this such an issue. I don't blame you or your relations for taking advantage of a system that is in place, even if I think it is a backwards ass system. If I was a Canadian citizens I certainly wouldn't refuse medical treatment for idealogical reasons. Regardless of that, emotional appeals do not hold sway over the fact that people in Canada daily receive health benefits that they do not earn. To earn it would mean you are billed for it. To bill someone else for it and put forth a pittance in tax dollars is not earning it.

I reckon that it is entirely likely that I pay a great deal more of my money out in taxes than you, yet I also realize that the bulk of American tax dollars are not paid by my income bracket but by higher income brackets. The same is almost certainly true of you, but in greater degree.

I find some amusement that while I am not a fan of Canada's politics, the ones most critical here are in fact Canadians!

Don't make idealogical arguments into personal arguments. They're only hurtful that way, and I doubt that's anyone's intent.

_________________________"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Quote:If you're taking out more than you're putting in, you're not paying for it. If you were paying for it, you'd be getting billed!

With due respect, Warlock, that isn't entirely fair. Ms. tovasshi and her family might not be paying in the full price of the bill (let alone interest), but she is paying in tax for socialized health insurance. The whole point of insurance is that you pay less than the price of your loss.

The question is, then, whether they are paying as much, or less, or more, than the monetary value of the coverage they received, taking into account the statistical likelihood of her sister's condition. But right now, NO ONE can answer that question, because there is no market for that kind of coverage in Canada. That's the problem with socialized health coverage: with no buying or selling of coverage, there's no price information with which to calculate cost or benefit in treatments.

So it's pure speculation on the part of Ms. tovasshi to say that her family pays back the worth of what they took out. But it's equally pure speculation for anyone else to day that they don't. It's literally impossible to know.

Health insurance functions the same way, true; some pay in more than they take out, some pay in less; the insurance company balances it out and takes its cut.

The difference, of course, is that in standard health insurance you have the option of both whether to have it in the first place (meaning it is not enforced socialism), and which company you wish to do business with (creating a capitalistic market).

The other difference of course is that you actually have to pay insurance bills to maintain coverage. As I understand it, a Canadian citizen can still receive healthcare even if they are entirely unemployed and pay no taxes at all.

_________________________"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Quote:The other difference of course is that you actually have to pay insurance bills to maintain coverage. As I understand it, a Canadian citizen can still receive healthcare even if they are entirely unemployed and pay no taxes at all.

Yes. That's a problem. But Ms. tovasshi clearly doesn't fall into that category.

Quote:We have not had any trouble so far in preventing terrorism up here. Just a couple of weeks ago we had a round of arrests in Toronto. So far we've been squarely on top of the situation before it becomes a situation. I see no reason to suppose this will change in the foreseeable future.

Congratulations, you win the obstinate academic space cadet of the year award.

-------------------------------------

Country Reports on Terrorism

2005 (pdf format)

U.S. law requires the Secretary of State to provide Congress, by April 30 of each year, a full and complete report on terrorism with regard to those countries and groups meeting criteria set forth in the legislation. This annual report is entitled Country Reports on Terrorism. Beginning with the report for 2004, it replaced the previously published Patterns of Global Terrorism.

CanadaThe governments of the United States and Canada collaborated on a broad array of initiatives, exercises, and joint operations that spanned virtually all agencies and every level of government. At the political level, however, tensions over Iraq and U.S. actions againstCanadian citizen terror suspects threatened to disrupt valuable information sharing between the two nations. Terrorists have capitalized on liberal Canadian immigration and asylum policies to enjoy safe haven, raise funds, arrange logistical support, and plan terrorist attacks.The domestic terror legislation Canada passed after September 11, 2001 was used for only one prosecution and will expire in 2006.

U.S.-Canadian counterterrorism cooperation rests on a number of established forums, including the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America, the terrorism sub-group of the Cross Border Crime Forum, and the Smart Border Accord. The latter led to an agreement to expand the number of Integrated Border Enforcement Teams (IBETs) coveringthe border to 15.

Of several exercises held to test the joint U.S.-Canadian response to terrorist attacks, TOPOFF (Top Officials) in April was the most ambitious. This exercise with Canada and the United Kingdom involved more than 8,000 personnel managing scenarios in three countries over five days. For Canada, it constituted a dry run of its recently formulated National Response Plan. Smaller exercises afforded local authorities the opportunity to practice their joint response to terror emergencies.

In Afghanistan, Canada assumed command of the Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team and maintained several hundred troops under NATO command. Although Canada chose notto join Operation Iraqi Freedom, it chaired the donors committee of the International Reconstruction Fund Facility for Iraq, pledged over U.S. $240 million for Iraqireconstruction, police training (through NATO), and elections, and led international monitoring of all three rounds of Iraqi elections. Canada also helped key countries address terrorism and terrorism financing with new counterterrorism capacity-building programs.

The principal threat to the close U.S.-Canadian cooperative relationship remains the fallout from the Arar case. U.S. authorities in 2002 detained dual nationality Canadian-Syrian terrorist suspect Maher Arar in New York and removed him to his native Syria. Arar claimed he was tortured in Syria, triggering a media outcry in Canada that prompted the Canadian Government to review and restrict information-sharing arrangements with the United States.

The two governments are working to develop a mechanism to accommodate Canadian concerns while resuming the free flow of counterterrorism information.

The Arar case underscores a greater concern for the United States: the presence in Canada of numerous suspected terrorists and terrorist supporters. Algerian-born Ahmed Ressam, the "millennium bomber" caught attempting to bring bomb-making materials into the United States, was denied asylum in Canada, yet remained in Montreal for seven years and used false identification to obtain a Canadian passport. Other known terrorists in Canada include:

Canada is also home to the Khadr terrorist family. Father Ahmed Said, a member of al-Qaida, was killed by Pakistani security forces in 2003. A son accused of killing a U.S. Army medic and wounding another soldier is being held in Guantanamo. Another son was detained by U.S. forces in Afghanistan and has since returned to Canada. The USG seeks the extradition of a third son for conspiring to kill Americans. A daughter is under investigation by Canadianauthorities for terror-related offenses.

Some 38 terrorist groups are officially banned in Canada, but not the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), possibly due to the political weight of the 200,000-strong Tamil community in Canada. The government prohibits known LTTE members from entering Canada, however.

In the wake of September 11, 2001, Canada passed an Antiterrorism Act subject to mandatory periodic reviews and annual reporting on preventive detention provisions. Canada has never used the latter, and has arrested only one person under the Act. The investigative hearing provisions of the Act have been used only once -- in the still unresolved Air India case. Nevertheless, critics of the legislation charge that it could be used to target ethnic groups andseek its repeal.

The British Columbia Supreme Court found Sikh separatists Ripudaman Singh Malik and Ajaib Singh Bagri not guilty of bombing Toronto-origin Air India Flight 182 and killing 329people. Outrage from families of the victims triggered a commission of inquiry, which is tasked to examine systemic issues related to Canada’s counterterrorism preparedness.

_________________________Live and Let Die."If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant."Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito MussoliniMY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

I didn't say there was no danger or that every outstanding case had been solved. I said that the police have so far been able to prevent any large-scale incidents of terrorism here, and there's no reason right now not to have continued confidence in them. It's wrong to represent our police as being so bound by irrational socialist agendas that they can't be counted on to protect us effectively. Nothing in these reports contradicts that.

That makes me a space cadet? Get real.

ps. Taking cheap and easy shots at my profession in the public forums is not appreciated.

All that ssystem does is encourage irresponsible behaviour and irresponsible use.

_________________________
"We are evolutionaries in the purest sense of the word. Spiritually and intellectually we are transcending a world grown rotten and we are transvaluing values, because for us, the highest value is irrefutable."

"Delay is like Death" Peter the Great.

"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Orwell.

I refer you to the Canadian Forces Physical Fitness Guide for Applicants to the Canadian Forces 2005, specifically pages 10-14. The facts are clear and able to be understood by anyone with an eigth grade education. It is not heresay or something I heard from someone else, it is fact.

_________________________
"We are evolutionaries in the purest sense of the word. Spiritually and intellectually we are transcending a world grown rotten and we are transvaluing values, because for us, the highest value is irrefutable."

"Delay is like Death" Peter the Great.

"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Orwell.

_________________________Live and Let Die."If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant."Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito MussoliniMY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

Pages 10-14 describe pre-enrollment expectations. How does this reflect on what is expected of soldiers once they are already enrolled? That's what's at issue. If you have official information on that, then I'll stand corrected.

According to one of the training officers here, what is expected of them is the same. They are both expect to be able to run 15k with 300 lbs on the their backs (the weight of their sack). They are both expected to use the same weapons and finish the same tests, they sleep in the same baracks and eat the same food. Most of the soldiers work out on their own and how they do so is up to them, but they all have to take the same test, because if you can't run said distance in under so many minutes with your sack, you are fucked. If you cannot use the proper equipment, you are useless.

The reason they have lower standards for women to get in is because they are trying to draw more in. I have met many males who have failed the entry requirements, even by the female standards. The male standards are easy to pass even for the average female. 19 pushups? 19 situps? Seriously, lowering the standards for females isn't worth mentioning when the male standards are low in the first place. It is just an entry exam. They don't get to fight for you until they pass a real test, which again, is equal for both genders.

Once again your comments are irrelevant. The fact remains that standards have been lowered to accommodate more females into the forces. That was my point and that is the fact.

I am done with you and this subject.

_________________________
"We are evolutionaries in the purest sense of the word. Spiritually and intellectually we are transcending a world grown rotten and we are transvaluing values, because for us, the highest value is irrefutable."

"Delay is like Death" Peter the Great.

"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." Orwell.

>>>Quality of care is another issue altogether.>>I've heard the same thing about Canadian hospitals.

I've heard things along these lines too, and it's something that came to mind while reading this thread. I've heard that although Canadian healthcare is socialized, the average quality of the medical world is poor in comparison to what's found in the US. For example, the average Canadian ambulance might often not have all the on-board supplies properly stocked , or the equipment is relatively arcane, etc. I'm just basing this off of stories I've heard, but maybe somebody else here would know more about this from personal experience.