Transgender Questions

Before turning the floor over to Savannah Wolfson (who has also written the popular Women Who Breastfeed in Church for RubySlippers) I’d like to explain that this question of “What is normal?” combined with questions of gender and sexuality provide fertile ground for . . . cruelty or care. Add the sparse but confidently over-quoted verses on sexuality from Scripture and we find fertile ground for spiritual abuse. Soulation, and thereby RubySlippers, is a place where we continue to foster care for others while we scratch at the glass to see light and beauty together. Please carefully read Savannah’s journey, questions and engage with all the kindness God has put within you. I invite any honest question to this roundtable discussion. I will join you in the comments.

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Transgender Questions: An Ex-Fundamentalist Asks

by Savannah Wolfson

I grew up in a bubble. My neatly packaged ideas of gender roles didn’t include anyone that didn’t fit into an idealistic (and often unknowingly privileged) box. When I went off to college, I debated with my roommate about whether or not we were still under our fathers’ headship, as we were without husbands to lead us. In my bubble, permanently single people weren’t often talked about because marriage was an assumption. I can recall many a sermon on gender roles in the home, but never a sermon that included blended families, because, well, divorce just wasn’t an option. I can’t imagine how fried my brain would be if I could tell my younger self the questions I am asking today.

By now I’ve moved out of my fundamentalist culture and I’m seeking to understand, learning how to be sensitive, and respond fittingly to the unfamiliar. I’m wondering if you can help me along this road. I’ll have to put in a disclaimer ahead of time—if I say something insensitive, I’m sorry. Please be patient with me and know that I wish to recognize where my idealistic bubble held me back. I’m ready to learn more.

As you’ve probably already figured out, I’ve been researching the transgender community. Up to this point, here’s what I’ve figured out on my own. I am cisgender. That means that I have always considered myself to be the same gender that others considered me to be at birth. I was born in a female body and I feel female. Of course, we wouldn’t need this term if there was no alternative, and the alternative to cisgender is transgender.

From what I understand, “transgender” includes a few concepts, but I’ll try to explain what I know so far. A transgender person can feel like they were born in a body that does not reflect their true gender. They can also feel like gender terms used to describe a cisgender person are too limited to describe themselves. Some transgender people undergo hormonal treatments and surgeries to help their bodies reflect who they feel they are on the inside.

Lisa Salazar

As I researched these options, I was struck with the impression that the genders, which I had been raised to believe were polar opposites, are far more similar than they are different, even physically.

If you’re like me, you’re willing to accept that people are different from you, even if it’s not something you understand. Reading the Christian transgender, Lisa Salazar’s story, I believe her, because she knows more about her experience than I ever will (Salazar’s book).The problem I have is that when I mentally assent to one thing—that some people are transgender—I quickly start seeing more and more of what I don’t know. I start asking questions like . . .

Is gender really so fluid that hormonal treatment and surgery could change a female body to a male body?

Why would God allow or what purpose would he have for someone’s soul to be a different gender from their body?

Does surgery really fix that? If so, what did trans people do before the age of plastic surgery?

Are there historical examples of trans people, or did the communication age reveal this problem?

Does the Bible have anything to say about this?

And what does the Christian community need to learn most about transgender people (keeping in mind that there are many transgender people who are part of the Christian community; the two are not exclusive).

Most importantly to me, how do I respond in the most loving way that I can to transgender people? I suppose I would have to follow God’s example for that, but I don’t claim to know how God feels about this issue.

I’m hoping I can learn from you. Do you have insights and questions about the experience of being transgender or knowing a transgender person? I’d love to hear them!

Hi Savannah,
I so appreciate this post. You’re honest about
your
questions which I think is a great starting point when it comes to
sexual minority issues. I wish more of the Christian community were
willing to simply ask questions instead of assuming conclusions. As I’ve
embarked on my own academic and personal journey to learn more about my
trans brothers and sisters, I have found it helpful (and extremely
difficult) to start breaking down the male/female binary. I know that
that statement possibly raises a flurry of questions and red
flags, but if one is going to dive in, then the binary has to broken
down or at least clarified. Thinking in terms of dichotomous “Male or
Female” leads to a lot of the normative speak I think Christians are
accused of and are honestly guilty of at times. Breaking down the binary
allows us to really explore the different pockets of sexual minority
communities that exist. I think when we break down the binary, we are
able to see more accurately the range of experiences within the LGBTQ
communities.

So, one of the biggest things I think our sexual
minority communities would appreciate, is if we all begin diving in to
learn the lingo, which has been a goal of mine for some time. If we take
time to learn the differences between transgender, transsexual,
transvestite, queer, drag, etc., then we are more equipped to see people
for who they are rather than tossing them into the miscellaneous piles
of individuals we don’t know how to interact with because they don’t fit
a norm. Taking the time to learn language is such a crucial tool for
us. It is sometimes the only way we are capable of giving and receiving
love. And loving our trans brothers and sisters I think is primary.

I
don’t know if that addresses your post in a way that is helpful, but
nonetheless, it is a place where I’ve started. If you’re really wanting
to dive into some of the origins and the medical exploration of trans
issues, then I recommend Sexing the Body by Anne Fausto-Sterling.
It is extremely dense, but really addresses not only the issues of
binaries, but also how our cultural has been responding
inappropriately for quite some time.

–

Jonalyn

Alex,

Thank you for this first comment modeling a openness to clarify vocabulary and learning the lingo! Could you help teach us a few distinctions you’re using?

Also, could you help us understand how you face and work through the tension between the verses about God creating male and female (prior to the fall) and dissolving the gender binary?

Alex

Hi Jonalyn,

Wow! Those are some big questions. I would be happy to share what I’ve learned so far, but I do feel my knowledge is still limited and “fluid” at the moment as I’m trying to learn more.

For me a big method of distinction is figuring out where that person in front of me is on the spectrum. Transgender could mean several things: it could mean that one chooses to dress in opposite-sex clothing and use the opposite-sex pronoun, which is a very rigid switch, one I think we often assume is the case for all trans people. Transgender could also mean that one is using hormones to enhance opposite-sex physical attributes, which would be a step further toward transsexual. Transsexual could mean that one has had some form of surgery to “fix” their body so that it feels more natural and appropriate for them. Transvestite could mean an everyday presentation of opposite-sex attire coupled with opposite-sex attraction, and drag could mean a very performance (think stage) based presentation of opposite-sex attire, characteristics and “character” to make a statement or point or simply for entertainment, either for oneself or for an
audience……And already I feel the need to stop here and say that these are broad sweeping definitions that not every trans (sexual minority) person will necessarily agree or disagree.

What I’ve experienced from my interactions in these communities is that the term ‘queer’ is often
used to more accurately describe a person’s experience, and I use the term “accurately” very loosely. What do you do with the biological female who doesn’t dress culturally feminine, borderlines a masculine presentation, doesn’t use the female pronoun, and yet is attracted to males? I think it would be far too easy for us to flip him into the female category based on the male attraction, yet at the same time it would be completely disrespectful of his experience. This is a real person who has a lot of questions himself about ‘why’ he is the way he is. And while I think those deeper questions really have forced him to turn to God, I know that the strict male/female distinctions found in the Christian community have forced him away from the church. He presents as queer and doesn’t take the term transgender as representative of what he experiences. Working closely with college students today has led me to observe that the term queer has a very extensive meaning and one that students and young people today really find attractive. It allows them to express themselves as they are and relieves the pressure of having to fit into rigid categories represented as male/female. I know we could begin to get into some
very relativistic territory here, but I don’t necessarily think that is the point. I think the point is that in learning some of the terminology and respecting their representation, I am communicating love and acceptance. And when love and acceptance are communicated, we can begin a relationship that digs deeper into the questions about who we are as humans and who God is. If
I’m unwilling to learn and understand, I’m unwilling to love and move towards that person.

As for the tension, I don’t have a definitive answer. I do believe that God initially created humans
in what we have called “male” and “female” form (Adam and Eve). I also know that we’ve convoluted “male” and “female” to carry much more cultural connotation than I think was initially instituted at creation. The tension arises when we think only the rigid “male” and “female” representations are “normal.” I can’t dismiss hermaphrodites on account of their bodily form (having both male and female bodily characteristics), which is not what I believe God originally created pre-fall. YET, that human is still a creation of God. So the way I deal with the tension (and maybe some would accuse of a copout) is to love and accept. I cannot possibly know nor do I think it is my place to say “this” or “that” is normal. Labeling first as male or female and then asking who that person is seems a little backwards. A great way to break down the binary is to see a human, and recognize that humans today come in a lot of different forms for a lot of reasons we still do not understand. Human first because doing otherwise creates exclusivity for some and I know my Savior was one who was very intentional about being inclusive. He was inclusive because being loved and known are what bring true healing. So I start there.

Maybe this is a bit too much for a post, but I just think this is an extremely important topic. There’s a lot more to be said, but I’ll leave it there.

Savannah Wolfson

Hi Alex! Thank you for the time and thought you put into those responses. I just wanted to let you know that I’m reading and absorbing and mulling it over. Please know that it’s NOT too much! It’s totally what I expect when opening the floor up to a topic like this. I think talking about this in love in Christian communities is badly needed and the gap in resources affects a lot of people.

As for terms, I actually started my questioning about this topic because I went to a friend’s birthday party–at Hamburger Mary’s! The early drag show was so far outside of anything I’ve ever gone to (as you can imagine!) and I was bursting with questions. I got online the next day to Google all of them. Your list above of terms to clarify is really helpful…I wasn’t even sure what questions to ask at first. Oh, and I am finding mixed messages on whether the term “queer” is offensive.” Care to comment on that?

I love what you said about approaching others as human first. Here’s a confession. I attend an LGBT affirming church (that’s not the confession, btw. I’m pretty open about that) and I think I’ve almost been pushing my questions about the transgender community to the side because I do tend to see them as human first. I think it’s been healthy for me up to this point, because I wasn’t raised to see the person, unfortunately. But it’s time to move past that stage. Does anyone have any insights about balancing the questions about the person and still seeing the person?

Jonalyn Fincher

Savannah,

Could you share some more about what you mean between “questions about the person and still seeing the person”? An example may help.

Savannah Wolfson

I myself was thinking about what I meant, Jonalyn, and I was just really wondering about when or if it would be appropriate to ask a friend who was transgender about these questions that I have. Like you, I have that curiosity about what goes on in someone’s soul. At the same time, I grew up in an environment that did not respect privacy. At church, we would say everything was everybody’s business in an effort to help sanctify each other, for example. Yikes. So I was trained over and over to just dive right in and ignore normal boundaries (Not saying being a transgender person is a sin, btw. Just giving an example). I’m retraining myself in this area (and truth be told, respecting people who are different from me comes way easier than confronting people all the time over things that are none of my business! lol). I think it would really boil down to the relationship and the individual, though, so it wouldn’t be that easy to come up with a formula. But let’s say I had a friend who was transgender. I was just wondering about whether it would ever be appropriate to bring the topic up…or if I should wait until they initiate (I’m thinking now that I would wait). And I know I should never treat an individual as a research project, but they offer insights that I wouldn’t be able to find within myself. I’m wondering about respecting their privacy and I’m wondering what would be appropriate to ask someone–but like I said, I’m sure a lot of it boils down to the person themselves.

Jonalyn Fincher

Savvy,

Yes, I agree with this. I was raised in an environment that looked on privacy as shameful. If you kept a secret it must be a sinful secret or else you would share it.

So learning to respect others and my own privacy is a relatively new talent for me to grow in.

I’m going to go out on a limb here to share what I see as a sort of spectrum that caricatures the conservative and liberal camps.

I think the way of Jesus is a way between these, one of honest, curious engagement even with people we think we have pegged (Who do people say that I am?), respecting difference (You spoke correctly, you have had four husbands and the one you live with now is not your husband), wondering about pain and past stories (What do you want me to do for you?), listening long and well (Martha, Martha, you are worried about so many things) and patiently noticing what makes others hurt (Jesus wept) and come alive while hoping to share our own stories, our own hopes and fears. And then, when those we love hurt us (for all do) we practice boundaries and consequences to protect what God has entrusted to us, we practice sharing feedback when we see them hurting others or themselves and we learn to get better at being kind and honest without shaming them as not worthy of belonging.

For this is what we long for, too.

That what I want to be about, neither disengagement or nosy accountability.

So, about your question with a transgender friend, I would ask the Spirit in those moments what to do. I think it constantly changes in terms of what to say, when to say it, how to say it. I do know that it’s easy to assume that not asking is loving (especially when we’ve been raised as you and I have) when sometimes it is not.

Savannah Wolfson

Love it. Thanks especially for those examples from Jesus.

Alex

Hi Savannah,

I agree, too, that talking about these topics is badly needed and more so, resources are needed for our Christian communities. There are several resources that I’ve found helpful in approaching trans topics from medical, legal, and theory perspectives. I can post a list or email a list if anyone would find that helpful. Not extensive by any means, but they were a great diving board for me.

The biggest shock to me when I first embarked on this journey was to realize that digging deeper only means more questions. lol. I was so ignorant of the details and the conversations already in progress that I received some questioning stares from some when I used the word “hermaphrodite,” which is actually an outdated and somewhat offensive term (intersex(ed) would be the alternate).

As to the question of “queer” I have heard and read that some do find it offensive and that offense has been taken by those who strongly identify as gay, lesbian, transgender, etc. This is not always the case, but there has been some strong tension between the gay/lesbian communities and the transgender communities. Sometimes the trans community is seen and treated as an impediment to the sexual minority movement. Much in the way christian communities have been threatened by the presence of sexual minorities in the church, the gay and lesbian communities have been threatened by the presence of the transgendered community. I think the tension (that is continually increasing) has caused a lot to ‘reclaim’ queer as an identifier, a way to again break down binaries (GL vs T). But for those same reasons, others have rejected the ‘queer’ identifier because of its perceived threat to the gay and lesbian identity. I’m making some very broad statements here, but I think this at least is one aspect as to the differing perspectives on these terms. Most of the college students that I have worked with do seem to take the ‘queer’ identifier and then use it as a way of explaining their particular experience. I’ve gotten to a point in conversation where I just ask if it becomes necessary for the conversation that we’re having together.

I attended a queer panel a couple of months ago and was extremely moved at the way the individuals there were so passionate about the concept of community. They raised questions about how to create an environment that was more inclusive, more loving, and a safe space for people to be known and loved. What struck me the most was that I had had an identical conversation at my house church only a few days before. It only made me more passionate about the need for safe spaced for people. We are all ultimately looking to be known and loved…and sometimes it I feel like our queer brethren are fighting for it harder than we Christians are.

Savannah Wolfson

Oooh, yes! Do post a list, if you don’t mind! I am one of those people who loves lists. lol.

I actually checked on the term hermaphrodite as soon as I read your other comment, because I was also unsure if it was right or not. Gosh. I am just feeling like I only know enough to be unsure about all this!

As for the way the homosexual movement has treated the transgender community, that shocked me, but I have actually witnessed some of that myself. My particular experience was talking to a person who believes that souls are genderless (so his attraction to the same-sex couldn’t matter). Transgender people feel strongly that their souls are gendered, so he didn’t think that their problems could be legitimate. He just figured cross-dressing and cultural gender bending would solve that problem. :-/ Is that the perceived threat you’re talking about?

That last paragraph…YES. I mean, I can’t imagine what a transgender person would go through in some of the churches I’ve attended in the past. I had a hard time breaking from the mold just for having different beliefs, but there’s such a huge stigma when it comes to sexuality. At the church I attend today, there’s a little rainbow flag on the church sign. I told a friend about it and she said something like, “They shouldn’t do that. Gay people should just go to whatever churches they feel like.” I really liked the rainbow, though. If I was a member of that community (LGBT), I would need that affirmation before ever walking in the doors. They’ve been so marginalized and so demonized that I don’t blame them for needing to know ahead of time whether they’ll be welcomed or not. May we know all people and love all people and welcome them with open arms–like we would want to be known and loved and welcomed.

Hi Savannah,
I’m afraid I don’t have answers for most your questions, but would like to hear the answers you discover!
The only thing I know about what the Bible has to say about gender and sexuality and how I should respond is “Love God and love you neighbour.” (Mt.22.34-40) I am convinced love is key. I don’t mean this as a cop-out or a ‘fluffy’ kind of love, this is a roll-up-your-sleeves-and-muck-in kind of love. As Fyodor Dostoevsky says in “The Brothers Karamazov,” “Love in practice is a harsh and dreadful thing compared to love in dreams.” As we love God and others more deeply, as we humbly receive love from God and others, as we seek to be led by Christ in all our interactions with others, we will begin to respond with Jesus-love, Spirit-wisdom, and God-grace.
I agree with you, I don’t claim to know how God feels about transgender issues, but I do know how He feels about transgender people…He loves them with the same love He has for me! He extends the same mercy, the same grace, the same truth, the same transformation, the same promises, the same blood of Christ, that He offers to me.
May we all love better and more deeply, with greater grace and genuine humility, as we encounter each other on our journeys.

Savannah Wolfson

Hi Heather! Thanks for commenting. I agree that love is first and foremost. Thanks for sharing that. Do you have any thoughts about how that real love could be best demonstrated towards the transgender community? What would fluffy love look like?

Heather

Hi Savannah. I think real love towards those who are transgender looks like being a good neighbour, building a relationship, becoming a friend, doing life together. Real love means ‘the issue’ becomes a person, a face, a story – one who has dignity and value and with whom we honestly and lovingly interact.

Mandy L

I’m glad this subject is coming up here. Monday at the end of my appointment with my masseuse (the best!) we were still talking rapid-fire as usual, and he remarked as his skin changes he might need to use a little bit of concealer. I proceeded to tell him about the ones I finally found that succeed in hiding my under-eye veins so people don’t stare like I have been punched in the face. He responded with how he got some tips from his friends who are cross-dressers about application, but he is glad to hear the product information I gave him. It’s so completely clear that these people are people too, and they’re just as lovely or horrible as anyone else. My masseuse is gay, and from our discussions I can tell that he’s a good person, and thankfully he grew up in a home with parents who loved him, but unfortunately many people in the LGBT community aren’t that fortunate.

It’s definitely a good thing to learn about people, especially when we want to treat them with respect and show them the love God teaches us. Believers should be part of their health, not inflicting further trama from clumsy fear of the unfamiliar and hate.

Savannah Wolfson

Hi Mandy! Thanks for reading! I love that last line you wrote. The “not inflicting further trauma from clumsy fear of the unfamiliar and hate.” I hope so!

Jonalyn Fincher

When I approach a person who self-identifies as transgender or looks to be dressed in drag, I’m instantly aware of a full-bodied reaction.

For instance, I was in Home Depot several years ago and found a tall woman employee to help me and my friend. She was very nicely dressed for being in an orange apron and stocking the shelves, lots of make-up, red lipstick, pearls and, wait, an Adam’s apple.

My reaction was viscerally disorienting. I felt like I was spinning and unstable. I felt both confused and very curious. My friend was viscerally disgusted and distant. The same spinning sensation didn’t leave her curious at all.

So her reaction also made me uncomfortable. And I thought, “What must be going on in this employees body and soul to be able to handle people always reacting to her clothes and appearance with disorientation, concern, disgust or just plain curiosity? Every day, year after year?”

I wonder at the purpose of male and female. The binary seems to have significance in reproduction, procreation and the p-in-v sex act. And yet, we don’t want to insist that simply because the majority have cisgendered experience, we must require all humans to have the same experience. For if we do, we miss something about God’s work in re-making humans after the Fall… where we all find our gender, sexuality and biology broken into shards. I’ve yet to meet a human who has felt they belong neatly in their sexual desires, gendered expression, body’s shape, size and appearance.

I like to think I’ve noticed more about femininity because I don’t fit all the norms: I’m not quiet, devoted to thinness, modest (in the traditional sense), or submissive. Transgender, queer, transsexual people also seem to have noticed the gender coding of our culture more than most cisgender people. They can teach us many things about gender verses sex. But, they also can show us places we haven’t even considered noticing in ourselves, where they have suffered. This is a valuable gift.

I would be very interested in meeting a transgendered person, like Lisa, who has chosen to opt out of the surgery and hormone treatment. I’d like to know why and if they feel they’re living a lie without the surgery. I’d like to know if the confusion of transgender is a relatively old or new experience. I’d like to know if the militant cisgender categories we enforce from birth prevent the room for processing openly, contributing to shame and therefore depression and suicide risk.

I’d like to know what I can do as a cisgendered woman to both value the differences in men and women without inflating them.

Here’s where my work in Ruby Slippers (the book) on what makes femininity color our soul (not just our body) comes in. There are aspects to having a male or female body that affects our soul (changes our beliefs, thoughts, desires, emotions, choices). Even after a sex change surgery, like Lisa Salazar experienced, she still has the memory of shaving her beard. She still has beliefs and thoughts and desires about her beard. And, as far as I can tell, Lisa doesn’t want to ignore that past. I admire her ability to try to integrate her body as it was born and the body she believes God has freed her to re-create.

That said, there is sacred ground in our bodies, and to remove the boundaries of genitals, hormones, is to move something significant. I’m not saying there isn’t good reason to have a sex change surgery to take hormone treatment. I am saying that this is sacred ground, worthy of deep and careful thought, gentle stewardship, vulnerable engagement for those who face this decision and those of us who are trying to understand.

Savannah Wolfson

Jonalyn, I always like hearing your perspective. Have you looked into gender identity disorder? I have met a transgender person who seems to feel comfortable without the hormone changes and surgery. I don’t know him very well, but it does appear like he wants to surround himself with people who “get it” and refer to him by his chosen name and are willing to use masculine pronouns instead of feminine ones.

I’ve got a question for you. I know we have different beliefs about same-sex attraction, but I always like your insights, whether or not we have the same conclusions. Do you believe a transgender person should be celibate? If yes, why? If not, what is your perspective on same-sex attraction in this situation?

Jonalyn Fincher

Savvy,

Yes, I have looked into gender identity disorder.

I think that calling people by the names they have chosen is one way we can meet people as and who they are, rather than deciding who we want them to be. That said, I want to confess I’ve not always been there. I’ve thought that refusing to call someone by the gender they’ve chosen was a subtle (ha!) way to enforce God’s decision for them. Now, I see I was speaking out of my discomfort and confusion about what I felt about them.

As to your direct question, I’ve been pondering that all weekend.

Here’s what I’ve come to.

It seems that the church is complicit in directly teaching a lie, namely, that there are but two legit ways to experience intimacy

1- marriage between 1 man and 1 woman

2 – parent to child relationships.

As you know I believe you can experience intimacy without sex or romance.

Since we only have two narratives in which we allow deep and connection, I think it is incredibly unfair to expect anyone has any sexual hopes other than male/female marriage model should thereby remain single, lonely and connected. A lot of culture changing must happen before we can really offer meaningful connection and intimacy through other models (cross- sex friendship being my favorite).

We must work on these other options, for as Brene Brown so rightly says, we are hard-wired for connection.

Because of the current cultural isolationist treatment of anyone who is not cisgender and heterosexual, I would not put the burden of forced celibacy or forced sexual union on a transgendered person (or anyone else for that matter). But, I would share what has helped me in my life.

When I have been confused about what God would want in terms of sexuality I have chosen to wait. Waiting has been a way for me to discern clarity. Rather than muddling my thinking, waiting on sexual union has helped me figure out who I did and did not want to spend the rest of my life with. Delaying sexual gratification was painful (for the years I practiced it) but it was not as painful as spending my entire life or even a portion of it with a person who would not have been a good match for me.

I have found waiting on sexual fulfillment to be helpful for building clarity, and my capacity for patience, which is a way to love. For any who are confused about what God has for them, I’d recommend waiting on sexual desire intimacy in order to discern God’s voice.

I believe your next question would be “Are you saying a person should wait forever?” Since, I believe God blesses those who do not marry and remain celibate (yes forever), I cannot remove my belief that a full, human, sexually vibrant (yes, you can be this without being sexually active) life is possible for the celibate person. Jesus is my prime example. Anna in the temple is my second.

If I were transgender and went through a sex change I would, as far as my limited knowledge can imagine myself there, choose to remain single. This is because I see the purpose of sexual union to be linked in Scripture to at least the potential for procreation. As far as I can see, unity (one flesh) and recreation (may he kiss me with the kisses of his mouth Song o’ Solomon style, etc, etc), are part of the male/female sex model that includes even a modicum possibility of procreation (even for older people e.g. Abraham and Sarah, even for people practicing birth control… the possibility remains). If the Bible were silent about homoerotic sex acts, this would be me arguing from silence and heterosexual privilege. But the Levitical prohibitions combined with the Romans 1 leave me baffled about how to write these away as culturally specific, pedophilia or male prostitution. I still have not heard a convincing argument about these. And I am reading up on them.

From my current understanding of Scripture, if God is has blessed so many people for remaining celibate, then I think it very likely that God would bless a transgendered person’s celibacy.

What would that blessing look like? I can think of several things, but I’ll leave that for another comment.

Savannah Wolfson

Hi all! Sorry to be so inactive on this conversation. Unfortunately, my husband, my kids, AND me have all come down with this weird feverish, coughing, achy, sickness and we’re in a battleground over at the Wolfson house! Great timing, huh? Just wanted to update on why I’m so slow to read and respond. Carry on!

Marie Kelley

On the topic of gender, what about intersex?

Jonalyn Fincher

Hello Marie,

It really depends on your question. What about intersex people were your curious about?

Marie Kelley

After I became a Christian, I didn’t know what to think about transgender people anymore, I was always fine with it before, but after becoming a Christian they kinda made me uncomfortable and I just figured it wasn’t something for Christians, like maybe we should just respect the body God gave us and just accept it the way it is. I watched a video(I am trying to find the link) where this man had found out because of medical imaging that he had a uterus and ovaries inside him, which is apparently not too uncommon with intersex. Outwardly he looked like a normal man. He had experiences as a very young child where he would put on his mothers clothes and makeup and dance around, and one day it just dawned on him that he would be punished severely if anyone caught him. So he pushed away those feelings and tried to be “normal”, he grew up and had a wife and kids and so on. Then he finds out as an adult, there is a uterus and ovaries inside him, and he is shocked. He sits with this knowledge for a while, discusses it with his wife and then decides that he wants a sex change operation, his wife was totally cool with it too. I have to ask myself, was it wrong for him to get that surgery? I really don’t know. So that made me curious and after I saw that video, I looked into how intersex can manifest. Some people have ambiguous genitalia, some are more defined or half-and-half, it can manifest in a myriad of ways. Some people with intersex look totally normal but have extra sexual organs hidden internally. These extra organs will only really be discovered if medical imaging occurs, so some people that have these internal sex organs may never find out. Sometimes chromosomes are responsiable for these mixed sex characteristics, sometimes hormones play a role. Learning about this made me think that maybe gender isn’t so solid, maybe there is a bit of a bell curve. What would be proper biblical sexual relations for an intersex person? Apparently these people are finding others like them on the internet and are having relationships. Can I really say that these people are wrong if they want to have relationships? Is it wrong if there are 2 people in the bedroom but also 2 penis’ and 2 vaginas? or 2 people equating to 2 penises and 1 vagina? Is that homosexual? With intersex people I just don’t know that it is. While as a Christian I believe they should pick someone and get married before sex, can I call what they do homosexuality? If they choose to get surgery to further define themselves into one gender or the other, would that be wrong? Is having a transgender person in the locker room any more weird or violating than having a homosexual person in the locker room? So I guess I just don’t feel sure that I could condemn anyone anymore for getting surgery to change their sexual organs. I feel like it’s a bigger grey area than I formerly thought. But I still get that “viscerally disorienting” feeling like you described Jonalyn, when I encounter a transgender person in my daily life. So I guess my question is, do you think that the existance of intersex people exposes a grey area in the gender issue? And since some people may be intersex and not know it, how do I know that X transgender person doesn’t have a really strong and maybe legitimate internal motivation for identifying with a different sex than they look like outwardly? Maybe that person has hidden internal sex organs that nobody knows about which are pumping out hormones and giving an internal motivation to identify with the gender they don’t look like. Maybe they have an abnormal set of sex chromosomes which causes them to identify with the other gender. Maybe they were exposed to excessive male or female hormones which affected the brain and body and that is causing the person do desire a different gender than they look like outwardly. Would any of these be legitimate reasons for a person to get sex change surgery? I really don’t know, but for now I guess I will give the benefit of the doubt.

Then I read the story of Nancy Verhelst(link below) who got surgery to become a man, but then she didn’t like the end result after surgery and asked to be euthanized, and it being Belgium they were quite happy to comply. And all the evidence shows that she only wanted to be a man because of outward social pressures. She grew up totally unloved by her mother because she wasn’t born a boy. Her mother really treated her coldly her whole life and constantly repeated this “If only you were born a boy..” rhetoric, and the mother wasn’t sad at all when her daughter was euthanized. The story is chilling. So clearly sex change operation wasn’t going to “cure” Nancy’s problem, it wasn’t going to make her mother love her or accept her. She just wanted love and acceptance, and the only help the doctors gave was cut her up and then give her the death needle when it was clear to her that surgery wasn’t really going to turn her into the man her mother always wanted her to be. I have a lot of ambivalence on this issue but I would like to know what you think about the intersex issue, is gender really perfectly binary or is there something of a bell curve? Should this effect how I view transgender people?

A few distinctions. I believe transgender and intersexed people can refer to the same, but not identical group of people (more here: http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender). So please keep in mind that if you read all the comments in this discussion, much of the ideas will apply to both groups.

Also please see the helpful distinctions in Alex’s second comment below about the distinctions between transgender and transsexual people.

You’ve very nicely summarized the crux of the question. Why should we come down with disapproval about sexual intimacy upon people who are born intersexed? I do agree with you that this is a grey issue. It’s not clear that we have any biblical clarity on what to advise or suggest, particularly as it is not our particular burden to bear. But, how can we be both compassionate and concerned about what God might be directing for an intersexed person.

Does God have ideas, commands, guidelines, wisdom about sexuality? Yes.
How do these apply to an intersexed person? That is what this post and comments are all about.

My views on the value of celibacy are explained in the comment below to Savvy that begins “Yes, I have looked into gender identity disorder.”

I appreciate that you’ve shown that many humans, myself included, do not always know what is best for us and our desires (unfortunately) are not infallible guides.

Savannah Wolfson

Hello there!

Thanks so much for sharing your questions. I’m still figuring out a lot of things about gender myself, but I wanted to ask you about something you said. Can you think of any other factors that could have influenced your feelings about transgender people besides your encounter with Jesus? I wonder what my feelings would have been like had I never grown up in the church I did, for example. I think (if I’d even been aware of the possibility!) I would have felt that it was wrong because of the culture in that congregation alone.

Savannah Wolfson

I had a new thought about this today, in light of the Southern Baptist denomination’s recent statements. My hangup was that “God created them male and female,” and that sounds pretty set. But I realized today that God created Adam and Eve male and female *before the Fall.* I see no reason why gender identity can’t be in crisis after brokenness entered the world. Any thoughts?

Jonalyn Fincher

Savannah,

I agree with this idea. In fact I hold it, too– however, you’re going to get some major pushback once you start saying that intersexed or transgender people are in gender crisis. You’ll be decried as pushing your imperial cisgender views.

Savannah Wolfson

I didn’t know that. I chose the word crisis because I think it would be awful to not feel at home in your own body. Transgender people go through a hellish ordeal, and it still wouldn’t be a happy experience even if society stopped discriminating against them. Sex changes are difficult, to start with…

Jonalyn Fincher

Savvy,

I agree that crisis makes sense, and seems to capture what so many trangender people live as their reality.

But I really should let transgender people speak for themselves. Maybe it’s not the word crisis as much as sounding like their reality of gender is a result of fallenness. This is one of the major hurdles I’m facing when I talk about gay marriage. Did God create people gay (as many openly gay Christians believe) or is being gay (or transgender) a result of the fall? The way you answer is important, but it’s hard to say “You’re gay because of the fall” or “You’re transgender because of the fall” without sounding imperialistic.

Does that make more sense?

Hailey

Hello. I’m a transgender woman who was brought up in the church. It’s really refreshing to hear other Christians talking about this issue, so thank you for that.

I think the one important thing I can add to the thought above is that the idea still teaches trans (and gay, etc…) people that they’re part of God’s curse. That if God had it God’s way (so to speak), we wouldn’t exist at all. It’s better by one than saying our experiences aren’t real, but it’s still extremely alienating. All the other things that are a ‘result of the fall’ are things like diseases, death, and those aren’t very comforting things to be lumped in with, after all.

So anyway, it’s definitely a good place to start, but I just wanted to put that caveat in there in case you ever sat down with a trans person and brought it up.

Jonalyn Fincher

Hailey,

I’m glad this post was refreshing to read.
Thank you for explaining with your own words, this helps me understand better.

Would you be open to talking more about this? I have some more questions, but don’t want you to feel pressured to answer publicly.

Kaley

So suppose we adopt the assumption that being transgender/intersex (anything other than cisgender) is a symptom of the fall. What does this mean? Does it follow that a tg person should resist those feelings and try to live as if they were cisgender? Another question: why is there a double standard about clothing and traits when it comes to gender? Women have much more freedom to cross over into “masculine” presentation than men have regarding “feminine” presentation. Is this sexism? I.e., being masculine is always good, so if women act masculine, great. But being feminine is not good for men.

Jonalyn Fincher

Kaley,

Such a good question. I don’t know with certainty on several of these questions, but I’ll give you my first thoughts and we can go from there.

1 – Even if a tg person is a symptom of the fall, I don’t know that a tg person should resist those feelings and try to live as if they were cisgender. I think that accepting the way our body is, is part of living with broken beauty here east of Eden. The way a tg person interacts with their body, hormones, unique makeup of their gender is precisely what I think they must determine with the Holy Spirit.

2 – The double standard I can talk about with more clarity. There is a deep fear and cultural disgust of femininity, it’s in men AND women. Here’s a small, but telling, example “You throw like a girl” what does that communicate about girls??! I talk about this at length in my book Ruby Slippers, in the chapter entitled “Frailty, thy name is woman”. I have a spoken about this problem with my husband time and again here: http://www.soulation.org/sphider/search.php?query=myths+of+gender&x=0&y=0&search=1 The summary is that femininity has been sidelined as weak, less human, and even in Christian circles, somehow less godly. I write about how there’s biblical evidence to the contrary in the chapter “Finding the Feminine in the Sacred” also in my book Ruby Slippers. This is something even women participate in when they shame or mock a boy with “feminine” tastes. It’s a huge problem and I’m glad you pointed it out. To answer you question, YES, this is sexism.