Karzai won't sign a security agreement. F*ck him. Let Afghanistan go, man. Bin Laden is dead, we did what we could, that place is a sh*thole and will remain a sh*thole for the foreseeable future.

Going into Afghanistan was in the end probably a mistake, much like the war in Iraq. Super costly. Are we leaving it better than when we came in? Hard to say. The best chance for a future Afghanistan was probably lost on 9/11 when they assassinated Shah Masood.

I hope we at least did the smart thing and created a decent spy network in Afghanistan.

The prospect of a full American withdrawal has led to concern among Afghanistan's neighbors, most notably Pakistan, where officials have warned that a civil war could break out and further destabilize the region.

Time to dust off my tiny violin.

Granted, further destabilization there is in no one's interest. Except perhaps providing a richer growth medium for terrorism. But Pakistan needs to STFU. They're a huge part of the problem.

Question: During whole Iraq/Afghanistan push to train their forces, why didn't we bring any of their men over to U.S. bases to train? (maybe we did). I'm not suggesting that we bring in thousands of them... but 20 here, 50 there... they get to live on base and train with our men. Some security measures can be taken to restrict their movements off base (we do it for our own men... they can't just go AWOL). We not only could train them on how to wage war but also teach them about democracy and other aspect of our culture at the same time in a more conducive environment than their own country. In America, in spite of our many flaws,they can actually see the benefits of building a democratic stable society. During WW2 we indoctrinated German POWs on those same themes (which was against the Geneva Convention... can't indoctrinate POWs). We sent them back to help build a democratic Germany after the war. But in this case they'd be volunteers, so the geneva convention is not an issue.

Diogenes:The prospect of a full American withdrawal has led to concern among Afghanistan's neighbors, most notably Pakistan, where officials have warned that a civil war could break out and further destabilize the region.

Time to dust off my tiny violin.

Granted, further destabilization there is in no one's interest. Except perhaps providing a richer growth medium for terrorism. But Pakistan needs to STFU. They're a huge part of the problem.

Pakistan biatching about the region destabilizing when they're the prime architect of that destabilization? Yeah, sure, whatever.

Did any great power of European or other origin come in during the 1960s and help us establish Civil Rights? No.

So what makes anyone think we are going to stabilize, moderate or modernize any Middle East nations? The people need to want it. That's it. They need to have a revolution of their own, and that is the only way to bring stability against the theofascists that run their countries presently. And even then, like in the U.S., we have to fight a constant battle against extremist voices. But it isn't done on anyone's dime or time but our own.

This.

Also, for those who think we absolutely must leave a large force in Afghanistan for the indefinite future, do you really want Obama to order our uniformed military members to unlawfully stay in a country and risk arrest or worse?

Obama isn't 'threatening' anything. The US doesn't station troops in countries where we do not have a status of forces agreement. If Afghanistan does not agree to one then they're as much as saying "we don't want you here", and then our guys leave.

kbronsito:Question: During whole Iraq/Afghanistan push to train their forces, why didn't we bring any of their men over to U.S. bases to train? (maybe we did). I'm not suggesting that we bring in thousands of them... but 20 here, 50 there... they get to live on base and train with our men. Some security measures can be taken to restrict their movements off base (we do it for our own men... they can't just go AWOL). We not only could train them on how to wage war but also teach them about democracy and other aspect of our culture at the same time in a more conducive environment than their own country. In America, in spite of our many flaws,they can actually see the benefits of building a democratic stable society. During WW2 we indoctrinated German POWs on those same themes (which was against the Geneva Convention... can't indoctrinate POWs). We sent them back to help build a democratic Germany after the war. But in this case they'd be volunteers, so the geneva convention is not an issue.

I'm guessing here, but I would have to say it's along the same lines as the reason why we spent millions of dollars building a pediatric cancer center in Iraq at the same time dysentery was raging throughout the civilian populous because of a lack of basic medical facilities: the Iraq & Afghanistan reconstructions were all about grandiose projects that would make the Bush administration look good instead of what was actually needed or would be effective. And the jury's still out on why Obama didn't stop that attitude; whether it was already too entrenched, he was incapable of stopping it, or he didn't wan't to stop it.

Obama is also holding out hope that Afghanistan's next president may eventually sign a stalled security agreement that could prevent the U.S. from having to take that step.

And why wouldn't he hope that? It's not like Afghanistan has been a huge failure, a black hole into which we send lives, money, and international respect, never to be seen again, all for completely no hope of actual change or benefit to the US. It certainly not like two thirds of Americans don't think the war in Afghanistan was worth it, and 80% don't think we're pulling out fast enough and support a complete withdrawal by this year.

i've sent obama email about leaving before and will again now. it's long past time we left. every single military person. every one including any attaches in the embassy. too bad for the NGOs and too bad for education especially among woman but the afghans had their chance and not enough cared. and dear god the corruption. what a clusterfark.

fly a drone over once in a while and blow someone up like we do in elsewhere just to let them know we are thinking of them.

Emposter:Obama is also holding out hope that Afghanistan's next president may eventually sign a stalled security agreement that could prevent the U.S. from having to take that step.

And why wouldn't he hope that? It's not like Afghanistan has been a huge failure, a black hole into which we send lives, money, and international respect, never to be seen again, all for completely no hope of actual change or benefit to the US. It certainly not like two thirds of Americans don't think the war in Afghanistan was worth it, and 80% don't think we're pulling out fast enough and support a complete withdrawal by this year.

Oh, wait...

yeah if we could go back in time we would just let the Soviets run roughshod over them and let it be their problem. But NOoooooo! We had to try to secure our capitalist interests there for our corporate owners. We had big plans for a pipeline for our corporations to maintain so we could cockblock the commies.

Headso:Subby you should go there and volunteer your time to help the place out.

know how I know you didn't read the thread?

brandent:Yes no matter how interesting the article or subject, truthful/unfunny never works. You'd think it would once in awhile but it doesn't.

it does if you're truthful/snarky because I've pulled that off sometimes. Troll hurts my soul (though I've inadvertently have done it a few times) But when I read the story, I just immediately thought of this scene from BS so I had to run with it.

Karac:Obama isn't 'threatening' anything. The US doesn't station troops in countries where we do not have a status of forces agreement. If Afghanistan does not agree to one then they're as much as saying "we don't want you here", and then our guys leave.

Get it straight, buster. I'm not here to say please. I'm here to tell you what to do. And if self preservation is an instinct you possess, you'd better f@ckin' do it and do it quick. I'm here to help. If my help's not appreciated, lotsa luck gentlemen.

Karzai won't sign a security agreement. F*ck him. Let Afghanistan go, man. Bin Laden is dead, we did what we could, that place is a sh*thole and will remain a sh*thole for the foreseeable future.

Going into Afghanistan was in the end probably a mistake, much like the war in Iraq. Super costly. Are we leaving it better than when we came in? Hard to say. The best chance for a future Afghanistan was probably lost on 9/11 when they assassinated Shah Masood.

I hope we at least did the smart thing and created a decent spy network in Afghanistan.

Going wasn't a mistake. Letting Clinton, Biden and John Murtha get us sidetracked with Iraq was a mistake, and Obama not packing up and leaving after George W Bush and the ghost of Ronald Reagan killed Bin Laden was an even bigger mistake.

somedude210:Headso: Subby you should go there and volunteer your time to help the place out.

know how I know you didn't read the thread?

brandent: Yes no matter how interesting the article or subject, truthful/unfunny never works. You'd think it would once in awhile but it doesn't.

it does if you're truthful/snarky because I've pulled that off sometimes. Troll hurts my soul (though I've inadvertently have done it a few times) But when I read the story, I just immediately thought of this scene from BS so I had to run with it.

kbronsito:Question: During whole Iraq/Afghanistan push to train their forces, why didn't we bring any of their men over to U.S. bases to train? (maybe we did). I'm not suggesting that we bring in thousands of them... but 20 here, 50 there... they get to live on base and train with our men. Some security measures can be taken to restrict their movements off base (we do it for our own men... they can't just go AWOL). We not only could train them on how to wage war but also teach them about democracy and other aspect of our culture at the same time in a more conducive environment than their own country. In America, in spite of our many flaws,they can actually see the benefits of building a democratic stable society. During WW2 we indoctrinated German POWs on those same themes (which was against the Geneva Convention... can't indoctrinate POWs). We sent them back to help build a democratic Germany after the war. But in this case they'd be volunteers, so the geneva convention is not an issue.

At least in Afghanistan, we did train several Afghan uniformed military members on ISAF bases. That was what gave them an in to conduct insider attacks on ISAF members.

You're kidding yourself if you think Afghans want democracy right now. They are a very tribal society. That issue, and all of the conflicts that bubble up as a result of it, underlies everything going on in the country.

gravy chugging cretin.:Karac: Obama isn't 'threatening' anything. The US doesn't station troops in countries where we do not have a status of forces agreement. If Afghanistan does not agree to one then they're as much as saying "we don't want you here", and then our guys leave.

[encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com image 300x168]

Get it straight, buster. I'm not here to say please. I'm here to tell you what to do. And if self preservation is an instinct you possess, you'd better f@ckin' do it and do it quick. I'm here to help. If my help's not appreciated, lotsa luck gentlemen.

Pretty much. At least if you have a broad enough definition of the word 'help'.

coeyagi:So what makes anyone think we are going to stabilize, moderate or modernize any Middle East nations? The people need to want it. That's it. They need to have a revolution of their own, and that is the only way to bring stability against the theofascists that run their countries presently. And even then, like in the U.S., we have to fight a constant battle against extremist voices. But it isn't done on anyone's dime or time but our own.

True. But before they'll be able to want those things, they have to be educated, with a bit of stability and leisure in their life, with a bit of money. The poorer the country is, the harder it is for it to get all those things; it's a lot harder to self-develop, while surrounded by much more developed countries.

Grahor:coeyagi: So what makes anyone think we are going to stabilize, moderate or modernize any Middle East nations? The people need to want it. That's it. They need to have a revolution of their own, and that is the only way to bring stability against the theofascists that run their countries presently. And even then, like in the U.S., we have to fight a constant battle against extremist voices. But it isn't done on anyone's dime or time but our own.

True. But before they'll be able to want those things, they have to be educated, with a bit of stability and leisure in their life, with a bit of money. The poorer the country is, the harder it is for it to get all those things; it's a lot harder to self-develop, while surrounded by much more developed countries.

*shrug* I'm very pessimistic.

It's hard to promote stability and build infrastructure when other people are promoting instability and destroying infrastructure.