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Topic: Evelyne, I Need a Favor (Read 10001 times)

Ahhh now things are heating up! Must artisan pizza be only baked in a wood-fired or coal-fired oven? Surely these are the ovens of choice, but in much of the country they are only allowed in on a limited basis. Coal in particular is very unpopular with the environmentalists as is wood to a lesser, but quickly growing, extent. I can see that in the not too far distant future, wood-burning ovens will be rare indeed. So--what happens if we use a gas-fired stone oven, or a brick deck oven? Can we produce artisan pizza? As far as I am concerned: yes.

Once again, I look to bread. In the USA artisan bread can be made in wood-fired ovens but most of it is produced in European style gas or electric ovens.In France, artisan bread can only be called artisan if it is baked in a wood-fired oven. In the United States, the rules are less rigid. Judging from what I've been able to gather from the people I've already spoken to there looks like ther might be several classifications of artisan--wood-fired or coal-fired being in a class all its own. Just like the artisan pizzaiolos who will be looking to follow strict traditional methods and guidelines, while others will be wanting to be more creative. We want to encourage the craft and the tradition. We should even set commercial limits for what can and can't be "artisan" on an industrial level, since that will happen.

I can see it now...Pizza Hut's typical Superbowl Sunday promotion: the ARTISAN: As Big As The Roman Colosseum! A giant slab of pizza held aloft by scantily clad vestal virgins...

I agree with everything you said and didn't mean to suggest that only a high-temperature oven can produce an artisan pizza. When I mentioned the high-temperature oven, that was in reference only to the Caputo 00 flour, which performs best in such an oven and especially a wood-fired oven if one is trying to replicate an authentic Neapolitan style. From what I can tell, gas seems to be the heat source that is gaining popularity although, as you know from your experience working with oven manufacturers, units like the Woodstone have dual systems using wood and gas. Except where grandfathered in, coal is essentially dead for new installations. Not too long ago, Pepe's opened up a new pizzeria in Fairfield, CT, and having lived not too far from there many years ago, I am pretty confident that Fairfield would never allow a coal-oven pizzeria.

As far as I am concerned, there is no reason why an artisan pizza cannot be made in any oven, including gas or electric deck ovens or other ovens that operate at temperatures far lower than the coal and wood-fired ovens mentioned above. Since home ovens operate at similar temperatures, I wouldn't rule out pizzas made in home ovens either if they meet the requirements established for artisan pizzas. As you noted before, we are pretty much artisan already.

Evelyne's philosophy of artisian pizza seems to follow the Slow Food movement ideals -- which she mentioned earlier. This is a noble ideal to make foods in traditional fashions. I learned about it from Corby Kummer's The Pleasures of Slow Food. If you are interested in this approach to both cooking and agriculture, you may want to check out his book or the Slow Food Movement's web site at http://www.slowfood.com/.

Incidentially, artisian pizza (or other foods) can be extremely lucrative, while the market may not be huge, you don't need to sell quantities -- many people (probably everybody on this site) will happily pay for outstanding quality.

Incidentially, artisian pizza (or other foods) can be extremely lucrative, while the market may not be huge, you don't need to sell quantities -- many people (probably everybody on this site) will happily pay for outstanding quality.

I really have to wonder how much of the population will pay premium prices for something which is so heavily marketed as fast food (junk food). The other night I knocked myself out to make pizza for some friends: highest quality ingredients, natural starter, fresh tomatoes and basil from my garden, prepared with the deep passion I have for this art in my wood-fired brick oven. IMO these were the best pizzas I have ever made - I enjoyed every single bite. But I had the distinct impression that some of my guests would have preferred something more like you would get at a fine restaurant - not some simple pizza. One guest who raved the most about the pies left all the edges on her plate - I was speechless since I put so much effort into getting the edges just so. I used to have a policy that someone who does this would never get invited over for pizza again. I'm seriously thinking of no longer serving pizza at all to guests since I think there are other foods they would enjoy more.

I know that there are successful, high-end artisan pizzerias like Bianco's, but have to agree that this is a very narrow niche and will remain so.

The artisan pizza movement will result in better pizza for everyone, because the end result will be diversification of the product and wider availability of ingredients. Look at the list following items (some of which have been discussed by others): bread, beer, olive oil, potato chips,chocolate, coffee, tea, vinegar, mustard, cheese. Many of these items have gone through a process where there are a few well-known national brands. An artisan or handcrafted brand makes a splash, copycats pop up, big national brand jumps on board and offers their own "artisan" product. Think back a number of years and about the variety you had to choose from of the items listed. Today, many of us can walk into the local grocery store and find fresh mozzarella, olive oils from all over the globe, kettle cooked potato chips of every flavor, three kinds of champagne vinegar and on and on. The spectrum of pizza will continue to broaden and the perfect pizza will be more readily available to all, whether it is a classic Neapolitan or a "brick oven pizza right from your microwave". As demand for various styles evolve and grow so will the availability of ingredients. What was once considered gourmet or specialty will become common. Although the quality of ingredients is also a spectrum, those dedicated to the craft will seek out their favorites based on their own ideals of perfection.

I am really enjoying this thread ! My two cents worth from a South African perspective....

Five years ago there was only one artisan bakery in the country. Today there are 5 new artisan bakeries that I know of, doing fabulous breads, etc. There is also a strong (albeit small) movement towards all things "organic", and more and more people now know that there are "good" pizza, and there are "bad" pizzas available. I think that artisan pizza making will grow in this country !

I have a gas fired pizza oven, and it takes only 20 - 30 minutes to get the temperatures right up there - easily as hot as wood fired. The beauty is that I switch the gas off as soon as I have finished cooking the last pizza - no wastage of fuel.

Peter, I didn't think you were suggesting that artisan pizza can only be produced from a high temperature oven. However, there are those who do believe that. I don't ,and none of the core group of people I've talked to about the artisan association do either. The general concesus amoung them (and me too) is that the artisan thing really has to do with hand-produced, or hand-crafted pizza that utilizes only pure ingredients in the dough and for toppings. Artisans believe in the integrity of the crust as the starting point of their pizza, and pay particualr attention to the other core ingredients of pizza: cheese and tomatoes. The method as to how it gets cooked will be up to the pizzaiolo. This does not speak to groups such as the VPN who have their own stipulations. (Pepe Miele is one of the group I am dealing with to get this off the ground). They would have their sub-category under the umbrella of the organization.

I've made some pretty darn great artisan pizzas out of a Lincoln Impinger--granted, I spent 10 days at their factory developing the finger configuration--but the results were so good that they even fooled one of the owners of Woodstone at an AIB seminar that I was giving that employed the use of one of the Woodstone gas/wood units and (un-beknown to Woodstone) a Lincoln impinger set up under my specs. The impinger is not sexy, but it can really kick a-- when properly tweaked.

I know the whole artisan thing is always going to involve a small dedicated sliver of the industry, but it will create a huge ripple effect. (right on Harv!) Brick ovens in C-stores and gas stations beats microwaves! I see it as a victory for better pizza: better techniques and better ingredients. However, as this type of pizza effects the mainstream, it will only make it even more urgent to have an association that protects the true artisan ways. The day I see a Pizza Hut or one of the other big guys touting artisan--I will both cringe and chuckle at the same time, because my 30 year old crusade will have come full circle--meanwhile I'm not holding my breath that this will happen any time soon.

Bill, I feel your pain--hand crafted pizza that doesn't taste like Pizza Hut or Domino's is wasted on certain people. I have people comparing what I make at the restaurant to the average local corner pizzeria "NY style pie". Tthey can't get around the pure ingredients and well-browned crust, they want a blond, under-cooked, slightly sweet, doughy crust with lots of over-salty, flavorless mozzarella and a sweet gloppy tomato sauce. When presented with the real deal--they say it is not. And they are right, it is not the crap they are used to. If I happen to be at the restaurant, and the complaint is made to me, I simply tell them that the two cannot be really be compared as what we serve is a comletely different animal from what they conceive of as NYstyle. It is impossible to compare a pizza whose ingredients are delivered in a SYSCO truck to one that relies on organic flour, fresh pak tomatoes and hand-made cheese. The funny thing is that even when I give them that spiel, some insist that they still like the inferior pizza better. Hey--there's no accounting for taste!

However, judging from this very recent post, http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=586#586, it seems that Tom still prefers a deck oven for the NY style pizza. Either way, one should be able to make an artisan pizza based on your definition with either type oven. I thought the last post gave a nice description of oven types and their differences.

Bill, I feel your pain--hand crafted pizza that doesn't taste like Pizza Hut or Domino's is wasted on certain people.

Thanks, Evelyne. I guess this entire thread comes down to giving people what they want and/or somehow getting people to want something better. The advantage we non-commercial artisans (yes, I think based on this thread I can call myself an aspiring artisan) have is that we only have to cater to our own tastes.

I am serious about not serving my pies to heathens for the time being.

BTW, I may have missed this, but where is your restaurant? What style of pie is your forte?

hand crafted pizza that doesn't taste like Pizza Hut or Domino's is wasted on certain people. I have people comparing what I make at the restaurant to the average local corner pizzeria "NY style pie". Tthey can't get around the pure ingredients and well-browned crust, they want a blond, under-cooked, slightly sweet, doughy crust with lots of over-salty, flavorless mozzarella and a sweet gloppy tomato sauce. When presented with the real deal--they say it is not. And they are right, it is not the crap they are used to.

Beautiful..............I trust this will be the introduction line of your next book David

Logged

If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

As for what is my forte? I can make and teach others how to make hundreds of different variations of pizza ranging from tradtional pizza varieties from Italy (not just Neapolitan) to all kinds of American styles. That being said, here is what I don't do: pizza that involves any kind of additives, conditioners, preservative, transfats or artificial ingredients or extenders. People come to me for traditional kinds of pizza--for old fashioned Lombardi-Totonno-Patsy-Pepe style pizza, for traditional deck oven pizza like a de Marco pizza, for "gourmet pizza" and especially for specialty pizza development. I've been teaching hands-on artisan style pizza for nearly 20 years. I am also profecient with pan pizza, deep dish, stuffed pizza, pizza dolci, calzones, strombolis--pretty much anything and everthing as long as it is made with pure ingredients, and some where along the line--by hand. I may know all about industrial pizza, but that is certainly not my forte--and I am proud of that fact.

It is really time for me to get a book out.

But at the end of the day, the pie that I do for myself, that is my personal passion is a Lombardiesque formula that is baked in a wood-fired oven. Pure and simple: Certified organic flour at 12% protein, 65 % hydration, sea salt, & IDY. I use the reposo method to mix my dough and I let it rest 30 minutes (for a 40 pound batch) and finish it at low speed for about 5-8 minutes--until it just comes smooth with a Hobart P660. I dump the dough into a bulk dough container and let it proof at room temperature for 12 hours, then it is scaled and formed and refrigerated in trays for another 24 hours before it is used. It lasts 36-48 hours. I use a straight mix, slow rise and get excellent spring, open hole cell structure, crunchy outer crust and deep wheat flavor out of my crust. What I am producing now is truly the best pizza in every way--or at least until I begin messing with it again. As I've said in the past, I look at making pizza like creating a piece of art, I'm always tinkering with it, always looking to make it better, always learning something that makes it that much better--even if it is only splitting hairs.

I will take some pictures of some of my pizzas in the restaurant oven for the artisan article I'm writting for PMQ, so I will post those so you can see--they don't look much different from yours. You'd have to taste them to see what they are really like.

Nizza La Bella (my place) is located in Albany CA, just outside of Berkeley in the East Bay, over the bridge from San Francisco. My business partner and I are in the process of concentrating more on the pizza aspect of the restaurant and are going to scale it down to a true pizzeria, to be named: Nizza. Our website is www.nizzalabella.com, it shows the current menu and some pictures of the oven and the store. The new menu really focuses on pizza. Maybe I could figure out a way to post it on here.

If any of you are ever in my neck of the woods, please let me know and come on over for some pie. Heathen consumers of crappy pizza are not welcome! Good then there's more pizza for me

Since you originally posted on your "Lombardiesque" dough, I have been thinking about it in the context of the Lehmann dough formulation. And, if it weren't so bloody hot here in Texas I would have already tried it. But what I have been wondering is how would your Lombardiesque dough methodology apply to a single dough ball, or a few dough balls? I don't think I would dare use a 12-hour room-temperature fermentation in my kitchen this time of year for a small dough batch, even using high-gluten flour, before putting the dough into the refrigerator. To get out to 12 hours, I would have to use super cold water, minuscule amounts of yeast, and possibly a hydration lower than 65% since, obviously, a single dough ball won't behave the same as a 40-pound dough batch fermented in bulk. Can you offer me some guidance on how your formulation and dough management would be adapted to say, a single dough ball, including the amount of time that the dough might be kept in the refrigerator?

When you mention the use of a riposo, I assume you are talking about an autolyse-like rest period after the ingredients have been brought together, in your case, for 30 minutes for the 40-lb. dough batch. Is that correct? If so, my recollection is that you said that for a small amount of dough, such as for a single dough ball, for example, that 5 minutes would be sufficient. Did I get that right? Thanks.

For a single dough ball (1-2 pounds of dough) I would let the dough go through its riposo for about 5 minutes and then continue to mix. For such a small quantity, the dough should come together really fast--on low speed. (personally I mix my dough by hand when I do such small batches, but that is because I like the feel of it in my hands). You can skip the initial non-refrigerated rise and refrigerate straight away. Leave the dough for about 24 hours then punch it down and form your dough ball, refrigerate for another 12 hours (a minimum of 8 if you are in a hurry) and a maximum of 36 hours (total) If you plan on refrigerating it longer, add about 10% more yeast to the formulation.

I find it amusing that that my Lombardiesque formula is being compared to the Tom Lehmann formula, because the Lehmann formula that you've all been carefully dissecting is my variation of the Lombardi formula which I devised for Tom and the American Institute of Baking. Tom would be the first to tell you that I was the one who shared with him the method and formula on to make a proper traditional New York style pizza. As I have said earlier, the techniques and formulas for this type of pizza were extinct to the commercial world of pizza before I re-introduced into the industry. Tom had no idea how to reverse engineer my pizza so he asked me to come to teach and to contribute my methods and formula to AIB.

Here is the original Lehmann Formula, as it was being taught before I gave him my formula.

Procedure: Straight dough method. Mix to clean-up stage. Some processes, especially those using large scale sheeting equipment, will requre mixing the dough to nearly full development.

Small scale production: Divide the dough into pieces of sesired weight (usually 10-12 ounces for a 14 inch diameter crust) Round up the dough pieces and place on a floured or oiled tray to ferment for 1to 1 1/2 hours before final sheeting.

NOTE: Place dough pieces in a cooler if they will not be used within an hour or two of mixing.

Sheeting: Flatten dough piece by hand slightly, then sheet out to 1/4 inch for thick crust, or 1/8-3/16 inch for thin crust. Place dough on an oiled or greased (shortening or margarine) baking tray

Thank you very much, and also for enlightening me on the genesis of the Lehmann dough formulation. Many people are in your gratitude, me included.

Can you explain the rationale for increasing the amount of yeast by 10% if the dough is to be held beyond 36 hours? I know that Tom frequently recommends using sugar in such a case but I am hard pressed to ever remember his suggesting an increase in the yeast quantity. If I had read it, it would surely have jumped out at me because of my anal attention to details like that.

MODIFIED FRESH BAKE: Dough is mixed and stored under refrigeration until used the same day

RETARDED (REFRIGERATED) DOUGH METHOD: Dough is mixed and stored under refigeration for use during the following day.

FRESH BAKE;OBJECTIVE: Prepare a number of smaller doughs during the course of a day's productin to maintain an adequate supply of fresh dough for pizza demandsPROBLEMS; Requires dough mixing during the day: need to anticipate projected dough requirements hours in advance; dough must be used within a short time-span.MERITS: Requires absolute minimum of processing equipment.

MODIFIED FRESH BAKE;OBJECTIVE: Prepare all required dough at start of day and store in bulk containers, under refrigeration. For use during the same day. Eliminates need to mix doughs during the day.PROBLEMS: Need to anticipate projected dough demands; dough must be used within a relatively short time span. Inconsistency of dough at time of make-up is only slightly improved over "fresh bake" process; generally requires a walk-in retarder for dough storage.MERITS: All dough is prepared during "down time" and is ready to be used during the production day.

REFRIGERATED DOUGH METHOD:OBJECTIVE: dough is prepared during down time, divided into preweighed units, and placed into a retarder where it remains in a relatively stable condition for use on the following day.PROBLEMS: Requires careful attention to dough temperature control; a walk-in retarder of sufficient capacity is required to hold a number of racks containing doughMERITS: Not necessary to accurately predict daily sales, extra dough always on hand to fill unexpected sales and surplus dough can be carried over for use on the following day; good level of dough uniformity; convenience.

I might add that the over-night retarded dough was the least popular method because it involved making the dough in advance. Operators, overwhelmingly rejected this method because it devoted too much time and space to dough.

The whole idea of time and letting the yeast do its job was completely foreign. A list of dough ingredients that only contained flour, water, yeast and salt and possibly olive oil (instead of the soy or corn oil most operators were using) without sugar? Impossible. Well, yes, if you want to use the dough in a couple of hours. No hanc methods of forming the dough balls was being taught or hand tossing. Dough went straight away into a rounder and was sheeted, docked and baked. This is how pizza was being made on the commercial level.

Sure, there were some of the old timers still doing their thing, and some traditional pizzerias in the NorthEast still doing their thing, but they were seen as vestiges of the old ways that were deemed too much work and too much thinking about how to make pizza.

None Tom's formulations at AIB had more than 55% moisture because they were all meant to be sheeted, not hand formed and sheeting requires a drier less "live" dough. Fermentation and sheeting don't mix.

The first time I taught my methods at AIB, I put everyone on their ear. I used a lower protein unbleached flour, only a fraction of the yeast they used, a 60% hydration, salt and pure olive oil--that was it. The fact that there was no sugar in the dough and that the oil was optional (I explained that the authentic formula did not have oil) was pretty revoltionary. The next day in the lab when we were stretching and baking the pizzas: I made yet another impression. Everyone was standing around Tom at the sheeter while he put the dough through it--several times. I was working at a table next to the oven. By the time Tom had finished putting the dough through the sheeter, I had already stretched out the pizza, built it, put it in the oven and was already building my second pie. Needless to say, the entire class became fascinated by how fast the process could be done by hand. Still though, they were quite afraid to attempt to put such a "hard skill" to work in their shops. TI also failed to mention, that once the sheeted pizzas were made, they were placed on screens, made up in advance and baked on the screens in the deck oven. The pies had the consistency of cardboard. I had my own tomatoes, cheese, fresh garlic and fresh basil brought in as well. The pie I was producing there was totally foreign to what was being taught as pizza.

So here we are full circle in the pizza making site 15 years later. The fact that the Lombardy formula is similar to the Lehmann formula is because they come from the same person. I wasn't going to say anything about it until Pete's comparison to the Lombardi formula which is the "mother" formula to the one I gave to Tom--and to many others all those years ago.

Thanks for humoring me in this rant, but it was bound to bubble up at some point. Tom and I were just talking the other day about how we have affected one another over the years: He gave me the science and I gave him the art--it's a pretty unbeatable combination, which is why we make such a good teaching team--and great friends too.

Pizza making was being taught as a process like an assembly line, not as a craft. Even when faced with the proof that a pizza could be hand tossed at nearly double the speed as a sheeted pie, operators were convinced that the "skill" required to throw a pie would be too hard and too costly to use. This trend still continues with operators to this day.

Yikes, I don't know what's happening today, I forgot to post the second part of that rant.

1. I wanted to copy the formulas, techniques and information from the AIB seminar so that you could see how far we have come. So that you could see that pizza was seen as something which was produced. Skill was not something that was admired, it was seen as something that was unprofitable and eccentric. (which is what most people thought of the old timers) They were looking for factory conditions to produce pizza, where they wouldn't have to mess with it. Now, this industrial head is still very much in the majority of commercial pizza, however, there are now a growing number of operators who are paying attention to their ingredients and technique--they are not artisans, but they are way above the average pizza skill and quality curve. Trying to affect the general pizza producing audience has been a career-long challenge for me. Artisans have the desire and passion to take their craft to the highest level, but for the average Joe out there, upgrading their ingredients and looking at learning how to make the dough so they don't have to use conditioners is a challenge that more are finally embracing.

2. The outcome of additional sugar or additional yeast will be the same. Dough that is to be held for a long period (over 3 days) and that uses a small amount of yeast will need an extra push so that it will not lose it. The dough becomes slack and over-blown because the yeast is essentially completely used up. If I know I want to use the dough for 4-5 days (and this is especially important for commissary type operations) I add 10% more yeast instead of sugar. So in a formula that has .25 of an ounce of yeast, 10% accounts for .03 of an ounce to .28. I round it up to .30 of an ounce, and that is what I will use. On a commercial level, holding dough for that length of time also requires a strong flour that has high quality protein and superior gassing power. Since most commercial operators use sugar in their dough, it is a lot easier to advise to increase the sugar level than the yeast. But if you are using a formulation that does not contain sugar to begin with, you do not want to introduce sugar to the formula when the same effect can be attained by minimally bumping up the yeast. Malted flour might also provide enough addtional nourishment for the yeast without adding sugar. I've been using malted flours for a very long time and have not had to bump my yeast up when I want to hold the dough for a long time. It does take experimentation and it does really depend on the quality of flour that you are using. In any event, you do not need to use sugar.