On February 13 2018 07:55 Cryoc wrote:Maybe the island map makes it to the ASL, though I cannot imagine Zerg not dominating on this map. Zerg immediately gets 3 gas at the start of the game while T and P can only get 2 and the second gas only after they killed off the sunken. Plus there is even creep on every island except the middle one, so Zerg can take the whole map without even needing drop.

The main strat for Zerg is probably rushing to hive to take the whole map and getting hive air units to keep air control.

I am interested in what ZvZs would look like, since that map seems highly suitable for Hive ZvZ.

A quick, sad history of island maps in BW: There are of course the classics, usually only one starting base or one starting base with two geysers and a mineral only expansion (read: Paradoxx). Turns out (no surprise, just do the math!), that Shuttle Zealot into Shuttle Reaver (EDIT: Oh, and Corsairs, of course, which is the only think that Protoss actually needs to fork much gas into) into Carriers just dominates everything in this scenario.In comes the "fix": Now there are cliffs everywhere where tanks can just kill an opponent for minimal investment (Gorky Island, Hall of Valhalla, Desert Fox – take your pick).All the while Zerg simply starve to death, unable to grab an early expansion or two and get the gas economy that they so desperately need, and even more on Island maps where in addition to Mutalsisks and fast Hive, Ovi speed and drop are not optional.So I guess overcompensation has reached its logical third and final phase now, where all the advantages are given to Zerg, before finally we can actually establish something that is fair for all races and an enrichment for the game/meta in general.

my initial impression from the island map is that with all the pro-zerg compensation, pvz is gonna be exciting. but tvz wasn't sufficiently imbalanced on island maps (aside from maps like gorky) in the first place, so z might end up dominating that.

for pvz, the problem isn't really that sair reaver dominates so hard (zerg air beats toss air once you get hive and +2 armor), but that dark archon templar cannon compleeetely stomps the zerg air that manages to beat the lategame sair carrier combo. The bases are so big though, and with enough unbuildable terrain, that turtling might be sufficiently difficult. And hell if it turns into zvz fest, we'd get to watch a bunch of zvz games with ensnare and devourers in action.

ModeratorI had to change my quote to seem more serious because I'm trying to use myself in an academic text :(

Eriador, don't lie, we all know it's about corsairs. Toss air is just too strong too early, there is no way zerg can counter that without having 3+ gases. And toss can easily pull off +1 double stargate from one base getting 100% air dominance. (not even mentioning from two bases)

I think the only maps where zerg would be fine is some kind of islands with expansion + big continent. We've seen Estrella in the past and Forbidden zone, both sadly were didn't have an extra expo on initial island and were very bad for zerg.

koget it's definitely about the corsairs for the first 10 minutes, but on this map, where zerg can get 3 gas without having to leave their main island, zerg won't necessarily be disadvantaged at the point where they reach hive and +2 armor, because they can defend and expand with only using hydras, and they won't be forced to fight sairs head on during the phase where sairs are totally dominant. devourer muta queen with upgrades crushes corsairs - on most island maps, it's very difficult for zerg to get to that point, on this map, zerg will get to that point. But then they will still have to deal with maelstrom+storm - which crushes devourer muta queen much harder than devourer muta queen crushes corsairs.

ModeratorI had to change my quote to seem more serious because I'm trying to use myself in an academic text :(

On February 14 2018 01:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:koget it's definitely about the corsairs for the first 10 minutes, but on this map, where zerg can get 3 gas without having to leave their main island, zerg won't necessarily be disadvantaged at the point where they reach hive and +2 armor, because they can defend and expand with only using hydras, and they won't be forced to fight sairs head on during the phase where sairs are totally dominant. devourer muta queen with upgrades crushes corsairs - on most island maps, it's very difficult for zerg to get to that point, on this map, zerg will get to that point. But then they will still have to deal with maelstrom+storm - which crushes devourer muta queen much harder than devourer muta queen crushes corsairs.

But by then Zerg will also have Defilers, which crash Carrier/Sair pretty much as hard. The real problem might be the game turning into a giant turtle fest for both sides, due to the lack of offensive mobility of most casters (here Nydus Canals give Zerg another edge in late game) on an island map. However, there's always the possibility of recalls and Zerg doom drops. The potential to see a truly modern island meta develop on the highest level of play would certainly be enticing.

yeah I definitely think there's a possibility of games turning into total turtle fests. I've played enough primeval isles ffas to know that breaking a turtling toss is virtually impossible if he knows how to play - but this map has the benefit that there's quite some unbuildable terrain, so there can't be cannons everywhere. I can totally picture scenarios where z has parasited everything from p so p has to keep templars in shuttles and feedback queens to hold vs broodlings that come before lords drop lings+swarm :D

but zerg on islands does not have an answer to dark archons in the late game stage. they have answers to corsairs and carriers and templars and cannons and reavers. But feedback and mael really destroy all those answers.

ModeratorI had to change my quote to seem more serious because I'm trying to use myself in an academic text :(

On February 14 2018 01:26 Liquid`Drone wrote:yeah I definitely think there's a possibility of games turning into total turtle fests. I've played enough primeval isles ffas to know that breaking a turtling toss is virtually impossible if he knows how to play - but this map has the benefit that there's quite some unbuildable terrain, so there can't be cannons everywhere. I can totally picture scenarios where z has parasited everything from p so p has to keep templars in shuttles and feedback queens to hold vs broodlings that come before lords drop lings+swarm :D

but zerg on islands does not have an answer to dark archons in the late game stage. they have answers to corsairs and carriers and templars and cannons and reavers. But feedback and mael really destroy all those answers.

Well, sounds like just another variation on the typical super late ZvP for me: In the mid game Zerg tries to grab as much map as possible over the Toss and then focuses on being everywhere at once, attacking and harassing wherever they find the chance to gnaw away at Protoss' bases and army, while Protoss slowly tries to build up a critical mass of high tech units, being as efficient as possible with resources and defending against Zerg attacks, eventually gaining the advantage if they can starve Zerg out…

On February 14 2018 01:26 Liquid`Drone wrote:yeah I definitely think there's a possibility of games turning into total turtle fests. I've played enough primeval isles ffas to know that breaking a turtling toss is virtually impossible if he knows how to play - but this map has the benefit that there's quite some unbuildable terrain, so there can't be cannons everywhere. I can totally picture scenarios where z has parasited everything from p so p has to keep templars in shuttles and feedback queens to hold vs broodlings that come before lords drop lings+swarm :D

but zerg on islands does not have an answer to dark archons in the late game stage. they have answers to corsairs and carriers and templars and cannons and reavers. But feedback and mael really destroy all those answers.