The big difference isn't so much one of theism or not, but that to many Taoists the idea of Tao is a very impersonal force rather than the personal God of the Abrahamic faiths. But if the Greek philosophical concept of the logos can be adapted to Christianity, then why not Taoism?

I get what you are saying with the personal vs. the impersonal. From what I have seen, the Tao as spoken of in the ancient writings is an impersonal force. It seems like Lao Tsu was longing for it to become personal, much like Abraham. The later Taoists kept the Tao impersonal, much like the Jews had made God impersonal at the time of Christ. It seems like Jesus coming down to earth was the fulfillment of what both Abraham and Lao Tsu sought.

I have also read the writings of Sadhu Sundar Singh, a Sikh who converted to Christianity. I believe that many of the ancient religions pointed to Christ, and that Christ was the fulfillment of these religions. I could never get excited about Islam when reading since by the time of Mohammed, the perfect had already come and there was no need for anything new. While the Gitas and the Tao Te Ching and I Ching stirred something in my soul, no different than reading the Wisdom and Praise books of the Old Testament, the Islamic writings left me cold. The former sparked my soul as written by those searching for the truth. The later as written by those who missed it.

Just my observation and not a judgement of anyone.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Sorry Nyssa I don't want to sound like a stalker but you constantly refer to this post that Panagiotis made that changed your thoughts about Orthodoxy I would really like to hear what it is if its not private.

I do? I thought this was the first time....

Anyway, it was about the problems with Evangelicalism, when I was in the middle of researching various theologies (and getting out of Evangelicalism). He didn't change my thoughts about Orthodoxy, but rather got me curious about it. (I didn't have any thoughts about it before.) I asked him a whole list of questions about the Orthodox view on various theological issues I'd been struggling with.

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Author of "Tojet" (fantasy) and "The Lighthouse" (Gothic), info available at my website URL.

Thanks Nyssa, I didn't mean you constantly bring it up its just I randomly was surfing through an older thread and you mentioned the same change of mind by a poster called panajotis. An interesting thing I read about that in the Hindu scriptures there are clear cut scriptures that refer to Jesus e.g

Verse 31:

Yeesh moorti parapta nitya shuddha shivakari:

Yeesha masih itticha mam nama prathishtatham

Translation:

The revelation of God who is eternal, Holy, Compassionate and giver of salvation; who dwells within our heart is manifested. His name is yeesha Masih [Jesus Christ].

The crown of thorns was placed on his head: “The sacrificial victim is to be crowned with a crown made of thorny vines” (Rigveda 10.90.7, 15).

His clothes were divided among those who offered him. “After death, His clothes are to be divided among the offerors” (Ithareya Brahmanam).

The person tied to a wooden cross: “His hands and legs are to be bound to a yoopa (a wooden pole) causing blood shed” (Brhadaranyaka Upanishad, 3.9.28).

While the victim was at his greatest agony on the cross, he was given a herbal drink which had an intoxicating effect: “Before death, He should be given a drink of somarasa” [an intoxicating herbal juice] (Yajur Veda 31).

Though the victim was hung on the wooden cross, none of his bones were broken: “None of His bones be broken” (Ithareya Brahmanam 2.6).

If you want to be delivered from the sin which you commit through eyes, mouth, ears and mind, bloodshed is necessary. Without shedding the blood, there is no remission for sin. That must be the blood of the Holy one. God is our creator. He is our King. When we were perishing, He came to save us by offering even his own body on our behalf. (Maha Brahmanam 4.15)

God is the ruler of people. He will offer His body as a sacrifice, for His people; for the remission of their sins (Sama veda, part 2, Thandiya Maha Brahmanam).

I thought this was really evidence for pre-information to humanity not just the chosen to know the prophecy.

Dude...muslim for sure. Are you telling me you'd pass up on an undisclosed amount of virgins for eternity? Who would pass THAT up?

The problem is those blasted mystics ruined it and made it into a metaphor. What a way to ruin a good thing. And while 72 women may start off as paradise, it would quickly become HELL. I'm in trouble more often than not when dating just one woman at a time...

The problem is those blasted mystics ruined it and made it into a metaphor. What a way to ruin a good thing. And while 72 women may start off as paradise, it would quickly become HELL. I'm in trouble more often than not when dating just one woman at a time...

Okay, this has to be the funniest post on here in absolute ages!

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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

I get what you are saying with the personal vs. the impersonal. From what I have seen, the Tao as spoken of in the ancient writings is an impersonal force. It seems like Lao Tsu was longing for it to become personal, much like Abraham. The later Taoists kept the Tao impersonal, much like the Jews had made God impersonal at the time of Christ. It seems like Jesus coming down to earth was the fulfillment of what both Abraham and Lao Tsu sought.

I have also read the writings of Sadhu Sundar Singh, a Sikh who converted to Christianity. I believe that many of the ancient religions pointed to Christ, and that Christ was the fulfillment of these religions. I could never get excited about Islam when reading since by the time of Mohammed, the perfect had already come and there was no need for anything new. While the Gitas and the Tao Te Ching and I Ching stirred something in my soul, no different than reading the Wisdom and Praise books of the Old Testament, the Islamic writings left me cold. The former sparked my soul as written by those searching for the truth. The later as written by those who missed it.

Just my observation and not a judgement of anyone.

If you haven't read it already, I think you'd really enjoy the book Christ the Eternal Tao that is published by St. Herman's press. While it focuses just on ancient Taoism, the central theme is that many pre-Christian religions were prophetic in their own right and can be used in the same way Greek philosophy was in evangelizing the Roman Empire. That is why I've always like the hymnography for Christmas, especially "Those who worshiped the stars were taught by a star to worship Thee, the Sun of Righteousness."

I take the same view you take of pre-Christian religion towards much of Islam because for many Muslims there was no possible chance of them being exposed to Christianity. While it may have existed it some parts of the world, a poet born in the heart of Central Asia during its glory days would really have had no authentic exposure to Christianity. So in that sense the longing for Christ is apparent ( at least to me), despite it being written long after the coming of Christ.

And while 72 women may start off as paradise, it would quickly become HELL. I'm in trouble more often than not when dating just one woman at a time...

Amin! When I was a practicing Muslim, some of my old buddies would ask me if I planned on having more than one wife and I'd tell them that I can barely manage one, why would I want to bring in more trouble? No offence to the ladies here!!

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"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America." ~Scots-Irish saying

Amin! When I was a practicing Muslim, some of my old buddies would ask me if I planned on having more than one wife and I'd tell them that I can barely manage one, why would I want to bring in more trouble? No offence to the ladies here!!

None taken! This is wisdom... as in you know what's good for you.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Thanks Nyssa, I didn't mean you constantly bring it up its just I randomly was surfing through an older thread and you mentioned the same change of mind by a poster called panajotis. An interesting thing I read about that in the Hindu scriptures there are clear cut scriptures that refer to Jesus e.g

Verse 31:

Yeesh moorti parapta nitya shuddha shivakari:

Yeesha masih itticha mam nama prathishtatham

Translation:

The revelation of God who is eternal, Holy, Compassionate and giver of salvation; who dwells within our heart is manifested. His name is yeesha Masih [Jesus Christ].

The crown of thorns was placed on his head: “The sacrificial victim is to be crowned with a crown made of thorny vines” (Rigveda 10.90.7, 15).

His clothes were divided among those who offered him. “After death, His clothes are to be divided among the offerors” (Ithareya Brahmanam).

The person tied to a wooden cross: “His hands and legs are to be bound to a yoopa (a wooden pole) causing blood shed” (Brhadaranyaka Upanishad, 3.9.28).

While the victim was at his greatest agony on the cross, he was given a herbal drink which had an intoxicating effect: “Before death, He should be given a drink of somarasa” [an intoxicating herbal juice] (Yajur Veda 31).

Though the victim was hung on the wooden cross, none of his bones were broken: “None of His bones be broken” (Ithareya Brahmanam 2.6).

If you want to be delivered from the sin which you commit through eyes, mouth, ears and mind, bloodshed is necessary. Without shedding the blood, there is no remission for sin. That must be the blood of the Holy one. God is our creator. He is our King. When we were perishing, He came to save us by offering even his own body on our behalf. (Maha Brahmanam 4.15)

God is the ruler of people. He will offer His body as a sacrifice, for His people; for the remission of their sins (Sama veda, part 2, Thandiya Maha Brahmanam).

I thought this was really evidence for pre-information to humanity not just the chosen to know the prophecy.

Prodromas,

You've suddenly given me a real interest in studying Hinduism. Do you know a good book that talks about these prophecies? Plus, don't get me wrong when I question you, but sometimes when I read things like these, they can be exciting, but they can also be either brought by someone who is misleading or deceiving or changing words around. Again, please don't take this the wrong way, but some verifiable research I suppose would help me out on this.

God bless you.

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

The problem is those blasted mystics ruined it and made it into a metaphor. What a way to ruin a good thing. And while 72 women may start off as paradise, it would quickly become HELL. I'm in trouble more often than not when dating just one woman at a time...

So what you are saying is that every relationship is doomed to hell-dom?

Dude..i'm willing to take the risks...lol.

Plus muslim culture is all about the man being the dominant one...i'm guessing that carries over in the afterlife...hopefully...

I really must read Christ the Eternal Tao before I have too much of an opinion, but in reading the I Ching and the early taoist poets, etc., looking at modern taoism or in my practice of chinese martial arts, I believe it's a big stretch to find the hidden Christ in the Tao. There is no personal sense of deity in the Tao; any deities or demons are semi-gods created by the tao and acting within its principals. Just my opinion, but I think there is a little bit of wishful thinking going on. Good and evil, death, charity, illness - all are the homeostatic workings of the tao. The universe and its inhabitants were brought into existence by tao and are eternally working towards balance and in death, spiritual perfection and absorption into the universe. I think taoism has more in common with a personal development self-help course than Christianity, since life is more about achieving balance through good deeds than selfless love of everyone, even our enemies.

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On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.

Then you must read the book. I procrastinated for a long time, then after finally reading it I was really peeved that I delayed.

I will take your recommendation. It's been on the short list of must get books but will be on a much much longer list of books that I must finish first. I wish I could speed read with comprehension and retention.

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On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.

I think taoism has more in common with a personal development self-help course than Christianity, since life is more about achieving balance through good deeds than selfless love of everyone, even our enemies.

That is more of the version of "Eastern religions" that is packaged to sell to aging hippies in the West. The real thing has a serious ethical and moral philosophy, not just the "what can I do to feel good about myself today" mentality.

If you haven't read it already, I think you'd really enjoy the book Christ the Eternal Tao that is published by St. Herman's press. While it focuses just on ancient Taoism, the central theme is that many pre-Christian religions were prophetic in their own right and can be used in the same way Greek philosophy was in evangelizing the Roman Empire. That is why I've always like the hymnography for Christmas, especially "Those who worshiped the stars were taught by a star to worship Thee, the Sun of Righteousness."

I take the same view you take of pre-Christian religion towards much of Islam because for many Muslims there was no possible chance of them being exposed to Christianity. While it may have existed it some parts of the world, a poet born in the heart of Central Asia during its glory days would really have had no authentic exposure to Christianity. So in that sense the longing for Christ is apparent ( at least to me), despite it being written long after the coming of Christ.

Very interesting perspective. I agree with your view that a Muslim could long for Christ through Islam. I was looking more at the insights to be gained by the writings. I am often told that I should not read "non-Christian" writings since they are imperfect. I am told this by the same people who read the Old Testament. I have always considered the Vedas and other ancient writings no different than the Old Testament since they pointed the people to the coming Christ. Islam, on the other hand, is a post Christian Heresy. Your perspective on the matter will cause me to reconsider my position.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

That is more of the version of "Eastern religions" that is packaged to sell to aging hippies in the West. The real thing has a serious ethical and moral philosophy, not just the "what can I do to feel good about myself today" mentality.

For that matter, that is all that most "Christianity" has become.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

"Infidel Defilers! They shall all drown in lakes of Blood. Now they know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night"

Oops. That was Thulsa Doom.

Archangels? Don't you mean Shai Hulud? Heretic! Be shunned!

"Thou shalt not taint the soul" -Orange Catholic Bible

^^Hmm...my Gabriel-given spectacles don't seem to show these verses that you must be fabricating.

Next thing we know you'll be proclaiming yourself as the Vicar of the Kwisatz Haderach (note the schismatic spelling) and that, only under certain conditions which you promise you won't use too often (but often enough to make use of this ability), you can speak infallibly on certain topics...

perhaps we shouldn't give this thread too great a detour.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 12:54:45 PM by FrChris »

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"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

"All defendants are guilty...period. Otherwise, they wouldn't be defendants, would they?"

An advantage of the historical development in Scots law, replacing 'Guilty' and 'Not Guilty' with 'Proven' and 'Not Proven', though only the latter has survived into modern law. It doesn't really matter if the person is guilty, what matters is whether or not the case is proven.

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

An advantage of the historical development in Scots law, replacing 'Guilty' and 'Not Guilty' with 'Proven' and 'Not Proven', though only the latter has survived into modern law. It doesn't really matter if the person is guilty, what matters is whether or not the case is proven.

Interesting. The declaration may not have survived, but the mindset certainly has. Here in the US we seem to have a weird mix of "Proven" meaning "Guilty" anyway.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 08:30:34 AM by EofK »

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams