Welcome to HVAC-Talk.com, a non-DIY site and the ultimate Source for HVAC Information & Knowledge Sharing for the industry professional! Here you can join over 150,000 HVAC Professionals & enthusiasts from around the world discussing all things related to HVAC/R. You are currently viewing as a NON-REGISTERED guest which gives you limited access to view discussions

To gain full access to our forums you must register; for a free account. As a registered Guest you will be able to:

Participate in over 40 different forums and search/browse from nearly 3 million posts.

ARI

ARI is in the process of creating the standard for VR(X) systems to come out this year. (VR(X) is generic term for VRV which is owned by Daikin.) There will be a seperate rating named IEER or something along this line for VRV systems. As will other ARI certifications the equipment will have to undergo ARI testing before becoming certified.

As with any product there are differences between manufacturers. One major difference is the method of defrosting of the system during sub freezing outside air temperature days. Most systems require a shutdown period to deice the condensing coil. Although heat is produced it is difficult if not impossible for this type system to keep up with heating the building. Daikin has developed a system that defrosts while the unit is continuing to run. The condensing unit is able to keep up with the heating loads even in subzero outside air temperature. Unlike water source heat pumps the critical load for equipment sizing becomes the heating load instead of the cooling load. Proper equipment selection is very important.

Not as great as one might think

I went to class to learn what we needed to know to bid a local project, the equipment cost was more than the engineers buget for the entire mechanical part of the contract. On original bid only one vendor could supply numbers. I like the theory and am excited that it may be coming to geo. But it doesn,t have a proven trac record, we have no data to truley compare it to geo. Oh did anyone forget our country is in turmoil and Daiken or Sanyo are both made in JAPAN!!!

Cost and USA

The cost of a VRV system in very dependent on the engineers knowledge of laying out the system. We work on a daily basis with the mechanical engineers to layout systems so they are both energy efficient and cost effective. We were a major supplier of water source heat pumps in St. Louis. The VRV system has effectively reduced our sales of WSHP to around ten percent. (I am right now putting together a WSHP submittal for a nursing home. This is one of a few we will do this year.) Last year we sold of $4 million in VRV systems in the St. Louis area. We have many different types of projects up and running.

It is true that the VRV systems are currently made overseas. This is due to the history of the product. This system has been in use for over a decade in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. Just within the last couple of years has the product been marketed in North America. Therefore there was no need to have manufacturing in the US. This is changing. Daikin has purchase McQuay International. They have built a multi-million dollar research facility in the US to develop all of McQuay and Daikin lines into the top products on the market. As sales continue to grow expontially, Daikin will soon be able to justify manufacturing facilities in North America. Daikin is truely a multinational corporation. Last year Daikin's sales were 14.2 billion dollars. For Reference Carrier sales in 2008 were 14.9 billion.

mr geo man

Since you are from New Haven you may be interested in attending one of our training sessions. We offer installation and job costing training for contractors on a regular basis. We will soon be the Midwest training center for Daikin. We are Thermal Mechanics in Chesterfield, MO. If you are interested send me an email at [email or call at 636-532-1110.

Quaternity

Since it is targeted at residential I am not real familiiar with the unit. It is a heat pump ductless split system that allows for humidity and temperature control. The unit uses hot gas reheat to raise the temperature off the dx coil which allows it to reduce the leaving air temperature off the coil and take more moisture out. Below is a link to their brochure on the units.

Thanks

Steve,
I appreciate the info and am very familiar with your company. My only contention is that evey time vrv is discussed verses geo it is said to be more efficent but no one can provide data to back up that claim. The particular job I have to reference, the decision makers had the engineering firm try to defend thier vrv system vs. geo and the engineer didn't even understand geo, the types of drilling practices, or the specific site conditions. Like I originally said I understand vrv and I think it has great potential. I will be more excited when it can be produced in america. The sad truth is Hvac is one maufacturing industry that is stiil mainly produced here, they are just using less and less american parts.

Steve,
I appreciate the info and am very familiar with your company. My only contention is that evey time vrv is discussed verses geo it is said to be more efficent but no one can provide data to back up that claim.

Always appreciate good dialog on this site!!!

Isnt Comparing to geo missing the point? Apples and oranges.

Vrv efficiency is due to variable speed dc motors. Moving the heat THROUGH the system efficiently, not the absorption/transfer efficiency.

Given all else equal its easier to pull heat fro 40f than 0f. So if applied to geo, vrv would make Geo technology even more efficient also!