Vipassana1501 wrote:I'm a Buddhist Chaplaincy student at the who's been asked to do some research on comparing/translating the Christian concept of Grace in regards to Theravada practices. I feel like I may be missing something obvious but I keep finding myself going down dead ends. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!

If I recall correctly (it being almost 10 yrs since I read it), it does contain some discussion on the notion of "grace", albeit from the position of the Gita. However, considering that both the Gita and Christianity tend towards the monotheistic, I hope that this provides some grist for the mill.

The "Early Buddhism" in the title should be close enough to you wish for a Theravada perspective.

By the way, whereabouts are you studying Buddhist Chaplaincy? I can only think of two places that have such a program.

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

Hi Manapa,Yes I have, in fact that's the meaning of it that I grew up with. But I had also heard of these other meanings for it, which is why I asked the OP to define it for us, so we wouldn't have to speculate on which meaning.

I checked Wikipedia which starts off with "Within Christianity, there are differing conceptions of grace. In particular, Catholics and Protestants use the word in substantially different ways."

Manapa wrote:so you have never heard of saying grace then? a common prayer of thanks before a meal

In Christianity the concept of Grace is extremely important and this is what the OP asked about. The prayer of grace before a meal is a different word and just a little ritual.

"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But it’s difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But it does not require a great deal of energy. It’s relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya

from my experience, even within protestantism there are differing concepts, if you don't like something, you don't need to like it but you also don't need to say anything about it, maybe there are different understandings of something based on other experiences and traditions you yourself are unfamiliar with.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Manapa wrote:from my experience, even within protestantism there are differing concepts, if you don't like something, you don't need to like it but you also don't need to say anything about it, maybe there are different understandings of something based on other experiences and traditions you yourself are unfamiliar with.

Hi Manapa,I think the above may be a response to my post since it refers to the quote I posted from Wikipedia (if not, please ignore this post ). But I don't understand what you are saying exactly, can you elaborate a little-- what is "it" and is that the generic "you" or did you mean I personally didn't like "it"?

Manapa wrote:from my experience, even within protestantism there are differing concepts, if you don't like something, you don't need to like it but you also don't need to say anything about it, maybe there are different understandings of something based on other experiences and traditions you yourself are unfamiliar with.

Hi Manapa,I think the above may be a response to my post since it refers to the quote I posted from Wikipedia (if not, please ignore this post ). But I don't understand what you are saying exactly, can you elaborate a little-- what is "it" and is that the generic "you" or did you mean I personally didn't like "it"?

sorry had connection problems soon after that post! the first part was for you, as you guessed, but the rest you was more of a general statement, and 'it' can be anything.

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!Blog,-Some Suttas Translated,Ajahn Chah."Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

My apologies, I have not been at the computer and thus unable to respond to the posts that have come up regarding my question about "Grace".

First let me say that If it seemed as if my initial question left a great deal of room for interpretation, that would be because that was the way I received the question myself. My intuition is that the best point of comparison would be the Christian idea of "Gods Grace". Beings as how I'm a life-long Buddhist, I'm not overly familiar with Christian Theology- In many ways as I study interdenominational spiritual counseling I'm being exposed to some of the basic concepts the Abrhamic faiths for the first time. If we take Grace in the literal Christian sense we might say it is "Gods unmerited favor" or gods ability to do for us what we are unable to do for ourselves. I really cannot imagine a concept more antithetical to my beliefs as a Buddhist- However, as I'm studying at a Buddhist College in the West, I'm quite sure that what was being asked was not just that I explore the obvious differences between these two belief systems but rather to investigate the "possibility" of an intersection of ideologies. I brought this question to this board thinking that perhaps there was a particular word from the Pali Canon such as "anubhava" that might shed more light on the topic. It may be that such a word does not exist and since this seems to be the general consensus here in regards to linguistic interpretation, I refined my question and found some interesting responses from other sources. The refined question read as follows: "In the Theravada tradition can one find a concept corresponding to the idea of something outside of the self, which in contact with the self creates significant positive transformation the self?" (This is of course just one, VERY BROAD, interpretation of Grace). I realize that this moves the question outside of the realm of Pali vocabulary and into that of hermeneutics, so I'm not seeking a response on this board. But if you must... And thanks for everyone's input!

PS: Buddhist Chaplaincy is the practice of institutionally based spiritual counseling offered from a Buddhist perspective to people of all faiths. It is a recent development in Western Buddhism that allows Buddhists to interact with large public institution in an official capacity, this does not require one be a monk or priest as such. The School is The University of the West in Rosemead, Ca.

Hi Vipassana1501,I tried responding yesterday but my dinky internet connection dropped out as I hit the submit button and I lost the post.What comes to mind is a post Ed (Zavk) wrote in a thread I started on 'Gratitude' in the personal experience sub-forum, where he mentioned that the contemplation or spontaneous arising of gratitude led him to an experience of something that he described as 'grace'-like. Its tangential because its not going to be an answer rooted in textual evidence but the result of personal practice of a contemporary practitioner.Its a shame Ajahn Dhammanando rarely posts on Dhamma Wheel as he is an expert in Pali and I am sure he would be able to introduce some interesting insights into your line of enquiry.I am also beginning to wonder whether what you are looking for, in grace, are the ten paramitas (perfections), which when practiced, supports one in their aspirations. Just an idea!all the very best with your studies!metta

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Vipassana1501 wrote:My apologies, I have not been at the computer and thus unable to respond to the posts that have come up regarding my question about "Grace".

...

PS: Buddhist Chaplaincy is the practice of institutionally based spiritual counseling offered from a Buddhist perspective to people of all faiths. It is a recent development in Western Buddhism that allows Buddhists to interact with large public institution in an official capacity, this does not require one be a monk or priest as such. The School is The University of the West in Rosemead, Ca.

Hi Vipassana1501,

Thanks for answering the question on where you are studying. I thought that it might be at UWest. If you know any of the Foguang Shan monastics studying or working there, like Ven Huizai or Ven Jueqian, please say hi to them from me (Huifeng).

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

Ideas like the anubhava or adhisthana of the Buddha (or bodhisattvas) "empowering" other living beings is something that is associated with the later stages of the Mahayana. In particular, some (but not all) far eastern Buddhist forms of "Pureland" buddhism, involving the "other power" of Amitabha, may have something very close to this. Or, the power of the guru in awakening the student in tantra. This really isn't Theravada territory.

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.

Vipassana1501 wrote:The refined question read as follows: "In the Theravada tradition can one find a concept corresponding to the idea of something outside of the self, which in contact with the self creates significant positive transformation the self?" (This is of course just one, VERY BROAD, interpretation of Grace).

No not really. Maybe there is the possibility of a teacher transmitting some level of awakening to a student but this idea doesn't really exist much in Theravada I think other than in the minds of idealistic students I suppose, it's more of a Mahayana concept.

I think maybe several Mahayana concepts are closer to the concept of "Grace" than anything you'll find i n Theravada.

For example the idea that we are all fully enlightened but don't realise it, or the idea of instant enlightenment, both are about receiving or having something you haven't necessarily earned. Also as mentioned before the idea of receiving transmission from a teacher or guru.

"Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But it’s difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But it does not require a great deal of energy. It’s relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest." - Sayadaw U Tejaniya

Vipassana1501 wrote:I'm a Buddhist Chaplaincy student at the who's been asked to do some research on comparing/translating the Christian concept of Grace in regards to Theravada practices. I feel like I may be missing something obvious but I keep finding myself going down dead ends. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks!

I imagine "grace" in a Christian sense has something to do with the view of divine causality:

'On that another said: "That, Sirs, will never be as you say. But there are certain devas of great power and influence. It is they who infuse consciousness into a man, and draw it away out of him. When they infuse it into him he becomes conscious, when they draw it away he becomes unconscious." Thus do others explain the cessation of consciousness.

D. 9

It probably also has to do with the view that brahma is "sañjita" - one who assigns beings to their station in life:

And those beings themselves, too, think thus: "This must be Brahmâ, the Great Brahmâ, the Supreme, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all, appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that are and are to be, And we must have been created by him. And why? Because, as we see, it was he who was here first, and we came after that.

D. 1

I think it is unreasonable to insist that grace has any place in the Buddha's teaching; even the Buddha himself was merely "akkhātu", one who shows the way: