scott123

Norma, you mentioned enjoying the crust, but how did you like the toppings? I would think that, compared to the caliber of pizzas you're using to making, that cheese would almost be inedible.

Also, for anyone that frequents MM... is it typical for pie makers to open the dough so awkwardly? I'm not expecting Tony Gemignani skills, but if it's your job and you're doing it all the time, you really should have a little more panache than that. Unless they were nervous in front of the camera.

Norma, you mentioned enjoying the crust, but how did you like the toppings? I would think that, compared to the caliber of pizzas you're using to making, that cheese would almost be inedible.

Also, for anyone that frequents MM... is it typical for pie makers to open the dough so awkwardly? I'm not expecting Tony Gemignani skills, but if it's your job and you're doing it all the time, you really should have a little more panache than that. Unless they were nervous in front of the camera.

Edit: That pretzel looks gooooood.

Scott,

I loved the toppings on the MMís pizza. Did you see the picture of the Grande cheese. Grande cheese was the cheese used at the Washington, DCís MMís.

This new MMís just opened this past Monday, so the pie makers are only getting started learning to toss dough.

Thanks for saying the pretzels looked good. They were and they are made out of he same dough as the pizza. I just reheated one pretzel when I got home and it was still nice and moist.

Did you see on the peel handle that it said, "Nom Nom Nom"? I really like how that peel was decorated.

Norma.Thanks for posting. I as well just visited the MM here at their new location here in Hilton Head Island SC while on vacation (back to jersey tomorrow ) Same mall new buidlding and much nicer /bigger space. I had never been to a MM but got the thumbs up from locals i spoke to. Also just opened a Gusepies?chain? coals fired pizza (will have to wait til next visit) I also grabbed a few pics as well I checked kitchen carefully as allways, there was a different 5 lbs bag of cheese not grande, but noticed it was low moisture Low fat Mozz. going on, red and green label ending on mo? could not make it out all else looks similar. Topping, I had Pepperoni ans sausage , and a side of meatballs all were very good. I was happy with the taste of crust and will post pics when I get home. Over all as mentioned a cut above the rest of the chains Heavy on the cornmeal !bowls full everywhere used for added crunch and release. but pie was edible for sure.John

Norma.Thanks for posting. I as well just visited the MM here at their new location here in Hilton Head Island SC while on vacation (back to jersey tomorrow ) Same mall new buidlding and much nicer /bigger space. I had never been to a MM but got the thumbs up from locals i spoke to. Also just opened a Gusepies?chain? coals fired pizza (will have to wait til next visit) I also grabbed a few pics as well I checked kitchen carefully as allways, there was a different 5 lbs bag of cheese not grande, but noticed it was low moisture Low fat Mozz. going on, red and green label ending on mo? could not make it out all else looks similar. Topping, I had Pepperoni ans sausage , and a side of meatballs all were very good. I was happy with the taste of crust and will post pics when I get home. Over all as mentioned a cut above the rest of the chains Heavy on the cornmeal !bowls full everywhere used for added crunch and release. but pie was edible for sure.John

John,

I was really surprised how much I liked MMís pizzas. I will be anxious to hear you report of the MMís you visited. The MMís I went to in Washington was very clean, and the cheese was Grande as I mentioned to Scott 123. I was also surprised the cornmeal was fine ground cornmeal, and it was everywhere too!

Place was brand new as well very clean, fun shroom, decorations , and comfortable space , they know what the people want for sure the salads and dressings were good as well. place was packed! will put up pics asap. John

Place was brand new as well very clean, fun shroom, decorations , and comfortable space , they know what the people want for sure the salads and dressings were good as well. place was packed! will put up pics asap. John

John,

Great to hear you will post your pictures soon. We had the Caprese salad and that also was great! The MM's in Washington, DC was decorated like a circus. The MM's operation wasn't busy at all, but they said it is in the evening that they get very busy. The other eating places nearby also get very busy in the evening. They sure do know what customers must like.

scott123

I loved the toppings on the MMís pizza. Did you see the picture of the Grande cheese. Grande cheese was the cheese used at the Washington, DCís MMís.

This new MMís just opened this past Monday, so the pie makers are only getting started learning to toss dough.

Thanks for saying the pretzels looked good. They were and they are made out of he same dough as the pizza. I just reheated one pretzel when I got home and it was still nice and moist.

Did you see on the peel handle that it said, "Nom Nom Nom"? I really like how that peel was decorated.

Norma

The shop is new. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that.

I am a big fan of Grande, but barely melted mozz is a huge pet peeve of mine. It always seems to me that the cheese on your pizzas is always well melted, but if you enjoyed the toppings at MM, I'll take your word for it.

I am a big fan of Grande, but barely melted mozz is a huge pet peeve of mine. It always seems to me that the cheese on your pizzas is always well melted, but if you enjoyed the toppings at MM, I'll take your word for it.

Scott,

You might not believe this, but the pies at MM's were baked for 10-14 minutes. I still can't understand how the crust stays so moist from the long bake. The Grande cheese was well melted on the pie I ate.

That is a nice pictorial. Thank you for doing it. I am also glad that you and your daughter had a good time and enjoyed the pizzas and other items you had at the DC MM location and the items you brought back home.

I have several comments and questions that get more to what we have been doing in this thread:

1. Were you able to learn whether the DC MM location uses fresh or frozen dough balls and, if so, were you able to learn anything about their dough management protocol (e.g., fermentation time, temper time, defrost time if frozen dough balls are used, and whether frozen dough balls, if used, are ever defrosted and re-frozen for later use, etc.)?

2. Since you did not show any photos of a dough ball in your possession, I take that to mean that the DC MM location does not sell dough balls. Is that correct?

3. Were you able to gauge the color of the MM dough balls compared with the MM clone dough balls you have been making? Or even compared with a brown coffee filter?

4. It looks like the pizzas you had at the DC MM location were 10Ē pizzas and that the pizza you took back to PA was bigger than 10Ē. Is that correct?

5. Apart from the visual characteristics of the MM crust as shown in your pictorial, can you describe the other aspects of the MM crust, including taste, flavor, sweetness, color, chewiness/crispiness, texture, degree of doughiness (if any), stiffness/droopiness, and also in relation to the MM clone doughs and pizzas you have been making?

6. In observing the handling of the dough balls by the MM workers, I concluded that the hydration of those dough balls is in line with what we have been using. In fact, the handling aspects of the dough balls, including the formation of the skins, were essentially the same as I have been experiencing with my MM clone dough balls, even when using the KABF and added vital wheat gluten (VWG). Did you get the same impression? I did not see any real slapping of the skins from hand to hand to open up the dough balls. This is harder to do with a small skin for a 10Ē pizza, but this leads me to believe that in the videos we have seen the dough balls were perhaps tempered for a fairly long time before opening. Or else, a much higher hydration value was used, which would appear to be inconsistent with the "stiffness" of the dough balls shown in your pictorial and the videos we have seen.

7. You mentioned a bake time of 10-14 minutes. I note the use of the Montague deck ovens but do you know the bake temperature that relates to the 10-14 minute bake time? For comparison purposes, you may recall from Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151292.html#msg151292 that I was told that a typical bake time was up to 10 minutes (depending on what was in the oven at the time) at a bake temperature of around 550 degrees F, using a Blodgett deck oven. Also, in the video at , Dustin mentions a bake temperature of 475 degrees F and a bake time of 20 minutes. I believe that with some tests I can match those conditions in my standard electric home oven but I would either have to use a higher oven rack position, a lower bake temperature than I have been using, or some combination of both, or possibly a combination of two pizza stones with the proper oven rack positioning and bake time and temperature. Unfortunately, we have been trying to divine the MM dough formulation and a proper bake protocol simultaneously. In your case at market, your options are more limited, given that your oven temperature is dedicated to the NY style pizzas that you have been making there.

8. I see that you confirmed the use of the Grande mozzarella cheese. I would say that they are perhaps using the Grande low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese as described at http://www.grandecheese.com/products/Pages/Product_Spec.aspx?ProductMasterID=18. If that is correct, it would make sense if one is interested in keeping things simple. Also, if there is no planetary mixer in the store, there would not be the option of using an attachment with the mixer to do in-store shredding of cheeses.

9. Was there anything particularly noteworthy about the sauce? I read that the sauce is made from fresh-pack tomatoes. Were you able to tell if that is the case?

10. Were you able to learn anything else that is glaring or that we have been missing in our efforts to reverse engineer and clone the MM dough/pizza?

To the above, I would add that yesterday I made a pizza using a dough with 7.5% Grandmaís Original molasses, 7% raw cane sugar, and 2.5% Kretschmerís ground/toasted wheat germ (plus KABF and VWG). Finally, I was able to get very noticeable sweetness. In fact, if anything, the crust was too sweet. Also, the sweetness seemed less complex than the crusts I have made with more molasses but less raw cane sugar. I am now inclined to raise the amount of molasses and lower the amount of raw cane sugar even if that means a darker dough and finished crust. I may even leave out the wheat germ since 2.5% did not seem to make a material difference.

That is a nice pictorial. Thank you for doing it. I am also glad that you and your daughter had a good time and enjoyed the pizzas and other items you had at the DC MM location and the items you brought back home.

I have several comments and questions that get more to what we have been doing in this thread:

1. Were you able to learn whether the DC MM location uses fresh or frozen dough balls and, if so, were you able to learn anything about their dough management protocol (e.g., fermentation time, temper time, defrost time if frozen dough balls are used, and whether frozen dough balls, if used, are ever defrosted and re-frozen for later use, etc.)?

2. Since you did not show any photos of a dough ball in your possession, I take that to mean that the DC MM location does not sell dough balls. Is that correct?

3. Were you able to gauge the color of the MM dough balls compared with the MM clone dough balls you have been making? Or even compared with a brown coffee filter?

4. It looks like the pizzas you had at the DC MM location were 10Ē pizzas and that the pizza you took back to PA was bigger than 10Ē. Is that correct?

5. Apart from the visual characteristics of the MM crust as shown in your pictorial, can you describe the other aspects of the MM crust, including taste, flavor, sweetness, color, chewiness/crispiness, texture, degree of doughiness (if any), stiffness/droopiness, and also in relation to the MM clone doughs and pizzas you have been making?

6. In observing the handling of the dough balls by the MM workers, I concluded that the hydration of those dough balls is in line with what we have been using. In fact, the handling aspects of the dough balls, including the formation of the skins, were essentially the same as I have been experiencing with my MM clone dough balls, even when using the KABF and added vital wheat gluten (VWG). Did you get the same impression? I did not see any real slapping of the skins from hand to hand to open up the dough balls. This is harder to do with a small skin for a 10Ē pizza, but this leads me to believe that in the videos we have seen the dough balls were perhaps tempered for a fairly long time before opening. Or else, a much higher hydration value was used, which would appear to be inconsistent with the "stiffness" of the dough balls shown in your pictorial and the videos we have seen.

7. You mentioned a bake time of 10-14 minutes. I note the use of the Montague deck ovens but do you know the bake temperature that relates to the 10-14 minute bake time? For comparison purposes, you may recall from Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151292.html#msg151292 that I was told that a typical bake time was up to 10 minutes (depending on what was in the oven at the time) at a bake temperature of around 550 degrees F, using a Blodgett deck oven. Also, in the video at , Justin mentions a bake temperature of 475 degrees F and a bake time of 20 minutes. I believe that with some tests I can match those conditions in my standard electric home oven but I would either have to use a higher oven rack position, a lower bake temperature than I have been using, or some combination of both, or possibly a combination of two pizza stones with the proper oven rack positioning and bake time and temperature. Unfortunately, we have been trying to divine the MM dough formulation and a proper bake protocol simultaneously. In your case at market, your options are more limited, given that your oven temperature is dedicated to the NY style pizzas that you have been making there.

8. I see that you confirmed the use of the Grande mozzarella cheese. I would say that they are perhaps using the Grande low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese as described at http://www.grandecheese.com/products/Pages/Product_Spec.aspx?ProductMasterID=18. If that is correct, it would make sense if one is interested in keeping things simple. Also, if there is no planetary mixer in the store, there would not be the option of using an attachment with the mixer to do in-store shredding of cheeses.

9. Was there anything particularly noteworthy about the sauce? I read that the sauce is made from fresh-pack tomatoes. Were you able to tell if that is the case?

10. Were you able to learn anything else that is glaring or that we have been missing in our efforts to reverse engineer and clone the MM dough/pizza?

To the above, I would add that yesterday I made a pizza using a dough with 7.5% Grandmaís Original molasses, 7% raw cane sugar, and 2.5% Kretschmerís ground/toasted wheat germ (plus KABF and VWG). Finally, I was able to get very noticeable sweetness. In fact, if anything, the crust was too sweet. Also, the sweetness seemed less complex than the crusts I have made with more molasses but less raw cane sugar. I am now inclined to raise the amount of molasses and lower the amount of raw cane sugar even if that means a darker dough and finished crust. I may even leave out the wheat germ since 2.5% did not seem to make a material difference.

Peter

Peter,

I was just composing about my visit to MMís and will answer your questions more in detail after this post.

Since I have been trying different formulas for a MMís pie, and not really knowing if I ever have achieved anything like a real MMís pie, I had thought about taking a road trip to Charlottesville, Virginia to that MMís location, but that location is about 4 hrs. 30 minutes away from where I live. I had noticed that the Adams Morgan MMís location in Washington, DC, was soon supposed to open. I asked my daughter if she would take me to the MMís location in Washington, DC. She said she would take me to MMís in Washington DC. I had to take my mother to the doctors yesterday morning, and go to market to make my preferment, but we were ready to leave about 12:30 pm. I had Map Quested the route to MMís and my daughter had put their address in her GPS and it said it would take anywhere from about 2 hrs. 11 minutes to about 2 hrs. 30 min. to get to their location.

Even the road trip was interesting because our fall leaves are starting to turn beautiful colors. I have visited Washington DC many times, but not in many years. It took about 3 hrs. to get to the MMís location because of traffic going down, and traffic in Washington DC. When we got there it was a nightmare trying to find a parking space and my daughter drove around the streets many times trying to find a parking space. It seems like as soon as one person pulled out of a parking space another person was waiting to pull in. Finally we found a parking space about a block and a half away from MMís.

The MMís wasnít busy at all when we went in. A young lady greeted us and asked us where we wanted to be seated. I said I would like to be seated near the pizza makers so I could watch them. We sat right in front of where the pie makers were making their pies. Our server was very attentive, and helpful in any questions I had to ask about. I asked if I could go and watch and take pictures of the pie makers and he said yes. All the pie makers were very friendly. I didnít tell the pie makers or the server that I also make pizza. I just said I was from Pa. and had wanted to try a MMís pie for awhile. The pie makers did ask me questions about where I lived in Pa. and I said between Lancaster and Harrisburg. The one pie maker said he and his mother go to the outlets in Reading, Pa. to shop. He said there was a diner he remembers that had a big man statue outside but he couldnít remember the name of the diner. I said that was Zinnís diner, but it is now closed. He said he did remember that was the diner. The server, kitchen manager, and the pie makers were impressed that we came the whole way from Pa. to try their pies.

I couldnít figure out what pizza to order, but the Kosmic Karma sounded interesting to me. My daughter couldnít decide what to order either, but ordered pretzels and the Capri salad. I also couldnít decide what draft beer to try because there were so many, and I am not familiar with all kinds of brewed draft beers. I had thought about trying Shiner Bock, but decided on the DC Brau Rotating Tap, because it had the DC name.

After we placed our order, I went up to where the pizza makers were stretching the pizza dough and topping the pies. I asked a lot of questions. I asked about the temperature of the ovens, and the one pie maker wasnít sure, but he did look and said the temperature was 500 degrees F. I remember thinking I wondered how long their pies take to bake. I did later time the bake of 4 pies. They were only 10Ē pies. I asked the pie makers how long the pies do take to bake and how they know when the pies are finished baking. They said the pies take around 10 to 15 minutes to bake. I later confirmed that was about the times the 10Ē pies took to bake. The pie maker said that it all depends on how often the oven doors are open and how many pies are baking at a time. He said each time the oven door is opened the oven loses about 50 degrees in heat. I canít still understand how such a long bake can produce such a nice moist rim. I also asked about if I could buy a dough ball to try at home, and the one kitchen worker said he would get the kitchen manager to come and talk to me after we were finished eating. I asked the pie makers if the dough is made right there and they said no. I then asked if the dough balls come in frozen and they said yes, because the MMís operations want all their doughs consistent, and if the commissary makes the dough they are all consistent. I said that is a long way for the dough balls to come from the commissary. I watched and they just take the dough balls out of a refrigerator under where they open and dress the pies. As far as I could see the dough balls are opened cold. I also saw two times they opened bags of shredded Grande mozzarella. The soft pretzels are cut out of one small dough ball as seen in the pictures I posted. What I found very interesting is the pie makers open up dough balls and put them into a plastic container for later use when they are busy. I asked if they stretch the dough balls more when someone orders a pies when they are busy and he she said yes, they just stretch them a little more later. I then wondered how the stretched dough skins donít stick together. I didnít want to ask too many questions, because I thought they might become suspicious about why I would want to know if the dough balls could be defrosted and then be refrigerated again, because they are a new store and I donít think they have done that yet.

The kitchen manager did come and talk with me after we were finished eating. I asked him if I could purchase a dough ball to take home and he said he would be willing to sell me a dough ball but Washington, DC has some of the tightest food laws in the US, and nothing that isnít cooked (or raw) can't be sold. He also said I wouldnít have the same results because of using a home oven. I said I do have a pizza stone in my home oven and do make pizzas at home, but could understand why they arenít allowed to sell any dough balls. The server and the kitchen manager both said the difference in their dough is the vitamins in the dough, the mountain water from Tennessee, and molasses in the dough. I asked the server if no sugar is added to the dough and he said maybe a little amount of brown sugar (he wasnít sure if they add any white or brown sugar) to the dough, but I am not sure if that is correct. I asked the kitchen manager if they add vitamin pills to the dough and he said no, they just add a special kind of vitamin. I didnít ask if that was wheat germ.

My daughter and I thought the pizza, pretzels, and Capri salad all were excellent. I had wanted to order a different kind of pizza to eat at home, but since I really like the one I had ordered, I order the same kind to take home.

From my observations of the dough it now makes me wonder if our hydration is low enough.

The GPS took us home a different way and then it only took less than 2 hrs. 30 minutes to get home. When I arrived at home my great-granddaughter, her boyfriend, and my great-granddaughter were there. We reheated the leftover pretzels in the microwave, and the pretzels tasted as fresh as when they were just baked. I am anxious to reheat a slice of the pizza I brought home. I think I am going to save a slice of the pizza I brought home for Steve, but am not sure if I should try to freeze it or just wrap it until Tuesday.

The pizza I had almost reminded me of a WFO pizza, in that it was moist, had good oven spring, and the texture of the rim was something like a WFO pie.

The kitchen manager told me the people that bought the MMís franchise rights in Washington, DC. have the exclusive rights to open 6 more MMís operations if they decide to.