World Families Forums - R-L21: New SNP Z253 found in Iberians, ancestral for L226

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FJames spotted this earlier. An L226+ person has Z253+. L226 is about as Irish as you can get. Its concentrated in Munster and is associated with the Irish Type III/Dalcassian STR signature.

Quote from: Dennis Wright

A Dalcassian (Dál gCais) Signature? There is sufficient evidence now that this clade is that of the Dalcassian clans of Clare, Limerick and Tipperary, the principal family of whom are the O´Briens. I am aware that an O´Brien who has impeccable pedigree through the Barons of Inchiquin and of Thomond back to Brian Boru and hence to Cormac Cas is a member of our cluster which is good confirming evidence that Irish Type III is indeed Dalcassian. Many Irish Type III surnames have connections with the O´Briens, such as Bryant, Kennedy, MacNamara, O´Donnell, Butler, Casey, Hogan and McGrath. So Cormac Cas´ ancestors, may very well be the progenitors of this cluster.

The Lebor Gabála (Book of Invasions — probably first written in the second half of the 11th century AD) describes the origin of the Gaelic people. They descended from Goídel Glas, a Scythian who was present at the fall of the Tower of Babel, and Scota, a daughter of a pharaoh of Egypt[1]. Two branches of their descendants left Egypt and Scythia at the time of the Exodus of Moses, and after a period of wandering the shores of the Mediterranean (including sustained settlements at Miletus and Zancle) arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland.

FJames spotted this earlier. An L226+ person has Z253+. L226 is about as Irish as you can get. Its concentrated in Munster and is associated with the Irish Type III/Dalcassian STR signature.

Quote from: Dennis Wright

A Dalcassian (Dál gCais) Signature? There is sufficient evidence now that this clade is that of the Dalcassian clans of Clare, Limerick and Tipperary, the principal family of whom are the O´Briens. I am aware that an O´Brien who has impeccable pedigree through the Barons of Inchiquin and of Thomond back to Brian Boru and hence to Cormac Cas is a member of our cluster which is good confirming evidence that Irish Type III is indeed Dalcassian. Many Irish Type III surnames have connections with the O´Briens, such as Bryant, Kennedy, MacNamara, O´Donnell, Butler, Casey, Hogan and McGrath. So Cormac Cas´ ancestors, may very well be the progenitors of this cluster.

The Lebor Gabála (Book of Invasions — probably first written in the second half of the 11th century AD) describes the origin of the Gaelic people. They descended from Goídel Glas, a Scythian who was present at the fall of the Tower of Babel, and Scota, a daughter of a pharaoh of Egypt[1]. Two branches of their descendants left Egypt and Scythia at the time of the Exodus of Moses, and after a period of wandering the shores of the Mediterranean (including sustained settlements at Miletus and Zancle) arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

Apparently though there is a lot of evidence that Biscay was avoided like the plague as it is very dangerous for sailors. It is reckoned that in ancient times sailors went directly between Brittany and Galicia in a straight line. This is shown by the distribution of artefacts as well as the Roman lighthouse in A'Coruna in Galicia which is orientated in such a way that it makes no sense unless the traffic was avoiding Biscay.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

Apparently though there is a lot of evidence that Biscay was avoided like the plague as it is very dangerous for sailors. It is reckoned that in ancient times sailors went directly between Brittany and Galicia in a straight line. This is shown by the distribution of artefacts as well as the Roman lighthouse in A'Coruna in Galicia which is orientated in such a way that it makes no sense unless the traffic was avoiding Biscay.

That's what I'm saying. I believe seafarers all along, meaning all along, the Bay of Biscay, which would include Galicia and Brittany, would have been familiar with trade routes that included going from Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

If you look at the distribution of L21 in general, it looks like something that was spread by seafarers, from northern Spain to the west coast of Norway. I'm not saying northern Spain was the point of origin; I was just describing the extent of it.

He says: L371's DYS456=14 satisfies that requirement - it just mutated again below DYS456=15. L21 started with DYS456=16. Next came DYS456 (16 to 15) which is shared by L226+, L554+ and possibly the ancestor of L371. L371 later mutated again from DYS456 (15 to 14). Since L371 started with L21 - there has to be some intermediate mutation from DYS456 (16 to 15) prior to the MRCA of L371 of DYS456=14.

He goes on to say: Z253 appears to be a very broad SNP - similar to DF21. Z253 will probably include L555, L371 and many other L21* submissions under Z253. I would not be surprised if yet another son of L21 gets put under Z253 as well. There is probably at least a 50/50 chance of testing positive for Z253 if any submission has 456<=15. It is only a 50/50 chance as it is possible that there may be parallel or backwards mutations of the same marker that would be false hits. A single marker is not a very reliable DNA fingerprint as a DNA fingerprint with four or five mutations.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

Did who invade? I'm just suggesting that since there seems to be a connection between Ireland and Iberia with Z253, that the connection could have been made through trade routes along the Bay of Biscay.

In general, I think that invasion gets all the "press" and trade route interaction gets under played.

I think a pattern of a scattering of minor clades in low numbers away from their main concentration is the pattern you would expect from trade and friendly political contact along trade routes. However, it should become clearer what was going on when each clade has enough identified people to compare variance in each area. The Irish clade with this marker is not very old if I recall correctly. So, I suppose the origin point of Z153 could be Ireland, Iberia or somewhere in between. To early to say.

DYS456 seems a tad unstable to base a theory like this on and almost 40% of the Z253 neg results in the R-L21 project are 15 at that loci.

I proposed coupling DYS439=11 with DYS456=15 as a "slightly" more stable theory for Z253+ (both L554 and both L226 Z253+ folks to date have these off-modals). There's only one Z253- person in the R-21 project with these values, but that kit #19583 (also in the McWho project), is pretty far off on other markers (such as DYS385=15,15 instead of 11-14). But, you never know. Of course, I'm hoping for an upstream SNP for L583, and Z253 seems as good a shot as any.

Although the Milesian story has been accepted by many scholars to have been written to make a false genealogy of the Irish race in order to tie them with a Biblical origin, I believe the myth was based on oral tradition that may have had substance. I also think that island people have an awareness through this oral tradition of where people arrived from.

It would seem to me that early seafarers all along the Bay of Biscay would have intermingled, through trade and exploration with people from the Isles. Even if early seafarers from what is now the coast of Spain and Portugal hugged the coastline they would have put themselves in position to travel from what is now Brittany and Normandy to the Isles.

I have a man, Raymond Keogh, in the Kehoe/Keogh DNA Project, who is L176.2+. Isn't this SNP largely connected with Iberia? He is born, raised and living in Dublin. We also have two P312* members in our Project connected to Connaght. I wonder what their connection is to the Continent.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe L21******** (*********)

But wasn't Ireland supposedly visible from Mel's Tower. If they did invade perhaps they didn't come from Spain but someplace closer? England? Scotland? or Wales?

lord no! Its nearly 1000 miles from Ireland to Spain. Its not visible.

Milesians..."arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)

I proposed coupling DYS439=11 with DYS456=15 as a "slightly" more stable theory for Z253+ (both L554 and both L226 Z253+ folks to date have these off-modals). There's only one Z253- person in the R-21 project with these values, but that kit #19583 (also in the McWho project), is pretty far off on other markers (such as DYS385=15,15 instead of 11-14). But, you never know. Of course, I'm hoping for an upstream SNP for L583, and Z253 seems as good a shot as any.

I'm taking bets the Baltic Cluster ends up under Z253. I just took another glance at the R-L21 tree from June 19, 2011, and three groups that branch off very close together are Irish Type III, 9919-A#1, and 1111EE. Bonham's are also close by, so maybe these are all old(ish) branches. You never know.

Milesians..."arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" (today Betanzos) and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times — see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)

I know the myth but Ireland is not visible from there. I have actually visited the tower in A'Coruna which is in fact a Roman light house called the tower of Hercules http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Hercules and you can see nothing but open sea from it. Its also nowhere near enough old to have been around at the time of the Celtic settlement of Ireland. Nice place though.

Even if you could stand on the top of the tower you couldnt see past 5.5 Km's to the horizion. Ireland is over 500 miles away from the North coast of Spain?

I checked. The shortest distance between Ireland and the continent is SE point of Ireland to somewhere like Brest in Brittany. Its around 270 miles. The distance between Cork in SW Ireland and Galicia in NW Spain is around 600 miles. To put it into perspective, NE Ireland is about 30 miles from SW Scotland. The south end of the Mull of Kintrye in Scotland is very clear (even some buildings can vaguely be seen) from the coast of north-east Antrim. You can see Arran in Scotland and sometimes Jura and other hebridean islands from north Antrim on cold clear days. From south Antrim and country Down the view to the Scottish borders area (Galloway) and Cumbria and the Isle of Man is sometimes visible. On occasion you can see Wales, all because they are fairly high. I dont think England can be seen from Ireland except Cumbria and adjacent as it is too low.

Kit #92957 - Thomas Johnson 1740-1790 Gainsboro England. Seems pretty far off from the L226 and L554 Z253+ positives, and even larger GD than me for some of them. Also has DYS439=12. Also not known whether L226+ or L554+ yet, and not in a known cluster.

Kit #92957 - Thomas Johnson 1740-1790 Gainsboro England. Seems pretty far off from the L226 and L554 Z253+ positives, and even larger GD than me for some of them. Also has DYS439=12. Also not known whether L226+ or L554+ yet, and not in a known cluster.

Some other differences:

DYS385a,b =11,11 (all others so far have 11-14)DYS19=15 (all others so far have 14)DYS438=13 (all others so far have 12)DYS570=18 (all others so far have 17)DYS590=9 (all others so far have 8)DYS425=null (all others so far have 12)DYS487=12 (all others so far have 13 or 14)