Wednesday, October 10, 2007

Is it recent eastern enlargement that is pushing a slightly disorientated and isolated Brussels into the arms of experiments with Deliberative consultation?

When Poland and the other ex-communist, central and eastern European countries signed up, the European Union got more heterogeneous overnight. And that means many more interests to cater for.

If the aim of Deliberative methods is to make it easier to transcend individual, local, sectional and national interests, then the job has got much harder in a 27 nation state club with wide economic and social differences between the new and old members.

The present Polish government certainly takes the idea of ‘national interest' seriously - it thinks it has the mandate to do so...read on at theDliberation blog

Shame on you!!!!! Obviously the chattering classes in the salons of Europe know whats best for Poles. In fact these same chattering classes seem to think they know what is best for everyone on the planet. The notion that POles should have any say in how their own country is developed is barbaric.

This is a classic example of elitist arrogance by a self deluded group of imbeciles.

Not quite sure I know what ya mean. The Dliberation thing is meant to be trying to get closer to the 'man in the street' in Europe. Whether it does that - and that is a debate about the deliberative method - I am not so sure about. But it just shows how out of touch the elites in Europe - especially Brussels - are.

That was my version of agreement albeit with a touch of comedic sarcasm added for flair.

I seldom agree with you, but you are always interesting as opposed to the more doctrinaire and off the wall anti-American types. The reality is that those who are doctrinaire are more or less human bobble head dolls or cartoons.

The real truth is that the far left has always been very elitist and totalitarian, despite its flowery words. The EU itself allows the most retrogade self appointed clods to much interference in local matters. Let Poles or any other group govern themselves.

Cut with the flaming, it makes you look bad. To say "let Poles or any other group govern themselves" or "the real truth is that..." is about as doctrinaire as I can think, so look in the mirror. Of course have your opinion, but don't just shout down the opposition as clowns--they might think the same of you so it's a dead heat. And people who refer to others as elitists invoke a class struggle of victimisation that probably doesn't help your cause. Recognise that it's a clash of two belief systems. The deliberationists believe that there is a common good that can span stakeholder interests that is achievable through processes that not only extract representative perspectives in society but engage them in problem solving together. Nationalists, federalists, liberaterians, etc put individual rights first, have no faith in group activity and don't recognise or desire to achieve a "common good" that extends outside whatever fence is put up. Deliberationists don't claim the right to decide for anybody else, they are about an equitable process for governance. Deliberationists are just as crapped out at unaccountable executive rule as everybody else. They just approach the problem in a different way. Who is right? Well it's like arguing between two religions.

The answer may be to put some aspects of governance in the EU basket, where economies of scale and cooperation are beneficial to everybody (eg. road signage standards), while other aspects are best governed at a local level with only protocols for communication and (some) standards set up at the EU level.

The above is not flaming in any definition. Moreover,the truth is many Euros need to learn basic manners. The mindless rabid anti-Americanism of some is quite evident.

Euros need to stop lecturing their betters on how to govern themselves. Poles are more than capable of deciding how to handle their own local affairs. The notion that a collection of condescending elitist windbags should interfere in local issues reeks of neomonarchism.