Statistical Analysis. Humor. Knicks.

Menu

Who’s More Tradeable: Eddy or Zach?

I’m watching PTI and in Toss-Up this question comes up: “Who’s More Tradeable: Eddy or Zach?” It’s an interesting question. I’m sure some people are going to answer the question by popularity, in other words choose the guy they’d rather see gone. But I’m more interested in defining “more tradeable” as: “which one is more likely to have value to another team?”

At first glance, I thought Zach Randolph might have more worth on the court. Granted he’s the worse of the pair defensively, and that’s saying a lot considering the other person is Eddy Curry. You would think there are a number of teams that could use a power forward that can score and rebound. He certainly has better credibility among laymen who just value per game averages (20-10!). But on the other hand, two of those teams have taken themselves out of the running. The Pao Gasol trade took both Memphis and the Lakers out of a trade for either of these players.

However Randolph makes significantly more than Eddy Curry (in 2011, $17M to $11M). And Randolph has had a few seasons where his TS% was well below league average. This low post presence spends a lot of time on the perimeter shooting jumpers. On the other hand Eddy Curry’s TS% is well above the league average for nearly every year of his career. It’s possible in an offense that doesn’t constantly feature him, Curry could provide efficient scoring. He might be a really good 6th man, providing an offensive boost off the bench. And of course, around the league centers are more desired than power forwards.

In the end I’m not too sure which one has more value. I’m looking at it from the perspective of “if I had a team and I was forced to choose one, which one would it be?”

73 comments on “Who’s More Tradeable: Eddy or Zach?”

Hands down its Curry. Curry has a better contract and does not have a history of getting in trouble with the law. I still hold out hope Zach can be coached to pass better and play more D. At least he rebounds and scores. Curry cannot rebound or play D.

Curry to Miami for expiring contracts, Curry to Memphis for Lowry and Miller, Curry to Sacramento for Artest, Curry to Chicago for expirings, Duhon and Noah—Curry to anyone who will take him without making the Knicks take back bad contracts with more than two years left. Lebron in 2010 should be the plan.

It seems that more people think Curry’s easier to trade, but the problem with that is then two of our best players are playing the same position: Lee and Randolph. It’s annoying to have Lee not start since he is our most complete player and fan favorite. Balkman should also start which makes the Artest trade slightly annoying (although Balkman could just start next year.) For me it would be ideal to plug in pieces around Lee, Balkman and Nate, but Zach’s contract and attitude make that impossible!

Zach Randolph never has been one to turn down the opportunity for a good time, especially in Portland.

So it’s not surprising the New York Knick forward allegedly rented the second floor of the Greek Cusina in downtown Portland for a party Jan. 31 – the night before the Knicks faced the Trail Blazers.

Nor is it surprising that Randolph was at the center of an incident involving more than 100 people that spilled out from the nightclub to the street.

Only two names were mentioned in the police report – Randolph and bouncer Christopher Oss, who made the call to police.

The call to police from Oss said he was “hearing threats about guns; however, none were seen.” The bouncer hung up on dispatch because he had to break up a fight inside the club.

When police arrived at 2:28 a.m., “I saw over 100 people on the sidewalk in front of the location, and others coming out of the business, and they were highly agitated and yelling,” officer D.W. Shaw said in his report. “With the assistance of other officers, we were able to disperse the crowd.”

Oss told Shaw that “this was a party put on by Randolph, and at one point Randolph was involved in an argument on the second floor of the Greek Cusina.” As a result, “a large fight involving 50-plus people broke out on the second floor.”

If you’re paying your 6th man 11 million dollars per year, you’re either in luxury tax hell or you’re an awful basketball team. It’s impossible to have Eddy Curry on your team and be successful. The combination of salary and lack of skills other than scoring makes it impossible.

Randolph has 2 skills. He might not be as strong of a scorer as Curry, but he’s more diverse in that area, and at least doesn’t coriograph his every move the way Curry does. And he actually rebounds way above average. To me that’s significant. Both turn the ball over entirely too much.

I’m going with Randolph. To me he’s diverse enough that he could be on your team and play 27-30 minutes and be productive. Given that he was placed on a team that already had an established star hierachy where he’s placed at number 3 or 4, and on a team that has been smart with the cap (up until the point that they decided to trade for Randolph, that is), I think he could play for a winning team.

Also, Randolph’s trade value was established this past summer. There weren’t a whole lot of takers, hence the small return Portland got for him. Curry at least is untested. He was the “untouchable” franchise player at this time last year. There may be a market if Isiah caves and admits his error in investing in Curry. We shall see.

Its Zach. Hes a young guy who can score and rebound but is a liability on defense. Can he help a team? Yes, but only in the right situation. Wherever he goes he needs to be next to a defensive center who will back up his lapses on D. What you will always hear about him is that hes a ” 20 ,10 guy”. That is undeniable right there. Just have to find the right match. Curry is still a beast in the post. Where ever he goes he going to want to prove himself. They just have to feed the big boy the ball and he will back people up as usual. We have just interrupted his rhythm terribly in NY and he hasnt been the same. ZAch and Ed just dont match. We knew it might be the case when the trde was made but now we know. If we can dump salary and get quality in return then ill be satisfied. If we are on the bad end of a Gasol like trade then that will be a nightmare.

You gotta pick your poison on this one: financially it’s Eddy because he has a more attractive contract, as far as talent it’s Zach because even though they both stink at defense, Zach will grad 10 rebounds per night to go along with a good offensive game. But the key to this topic should be: ‘Who’s in charge if and when these guys get traded?’ No one can argue that Isiah is one of the worst GM’s in the history of basketball. Solution: fire Isiah now, well before the trading deadline, hire someone with smarts to make present and future decision. Forget the playoffs (getting swept by Boston/Detroit), play the young guys and rebuild from the draft. Find the next Ewing or Camby, WE NEED A REAL CENTER!!

Eddy has alot more value because he is a player teams have to game plan against. Despite all of his weaknesses he can be a game changer on offense. With the right surrounding players and a good coach I think that Curry could help a team greatly on offense. I agree that his defensive shortcomings keep him from being a good full time player but I think 20-30 minutes with good shooters and a good defensive big man next to him and he could be successful.

Zach on the other hand is at best an average offensive player who shoots way too much and disrupts ball movement. Couple that with his terrible defense and you have a player that does one thing well, rebound. Pure rebounders do not get paid alot especially when they cannot play defense.

Plus Zach’s contract is much more unreasonable and he is a power forward.

I would prefer to trade Curry, because all he offers is a potential 20 points and 5 rebounds which he will give up to his opponent.
At least Zachs’ opponents don’t usually score more than Zach, and outrebound him as well.
In a perfect world, they both get on a flight to Italy with Marbury.
I hope the future gets brighter!

Local papers are saying that Isiah is shopping Stephon around. Does he NEVER learn? Just let the frickin contract come off the books Isiah!!!

I think Curry is probably more tradeable — shorter contract, more premium position. His heart thing (at least physically!) seems to be a nonissue at this point after 2 1/2 seasons without a problem. Not sure whether his uninsurable contract is just re: heart issues or all physical issues though.

At the same time, I’d much rather get rid of Zach. I think he’s actually a pretty good player but like many on this board have already said, the drop (if any) from Zach–>Lee is minimal at most, and actually a Curry/Lee frontcourt would probably be better overall for the team. I’d trade him for a ham sandwich at this point, to be honest. If Isiah can somehow just trade him for a contract that is a year shorter I’d be happy.

What people were afraid of is Curry having a condition called Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy, which is a congenital condition where the walls of the heart are too thick. In a particularly severe form, when blood flows quickly from the outflow tract of the heart (like during exercise), it can create a vacuum that pulls in the walls of the heart and actually blocks the blood from flowing through. The brain suffers from a lack of oxygen and the person collapses. Many times this condition has warning signs (like and arrythmia or feeling light headed during exercise), but not always. Curry actually did have an arrhythmia in Chicago, and did feel light headed with chest pains while exercising in Chicago. Also, at least one doctor thought that his heart may be mildly enlarged when doing imaging studies. However, even this doctor cleared Curry to play basketball, suggesting that he actually thought that Curry probably didn’t have the condition, and that his heart couldn’t have been all that enlarged. But there are two reasons why I think that Curry’s heart is ok:

1. No similar episodes have been reported since Curry came to New York. Now, even though hypertrophic cardiomyopathy can present itself without symptoms, you wouldn’t expect symptoms, once present, to just go away with continued strenuous exercise. If anything, they should get worse.

2. Since the condition typically gets worse with time, and Curry is followed by an extensive medical staff in New York, doctors should have a pretty good indication if Curry’s heart has gotten any more enlarged. All they need to do is compare the current images with the images from Chicago. If it hasn’t gotten bigger, that means he probably doesn’t have it.

3. There were reports that Curry was taking ephedra for weight loss. This is a drug that contains compounds that contains active ingredients (like ephedrine, which is like the active ingredient in sudafed, and does some similar things to amphetamine) that constrict blood vessels and are a very likely explanation for the symptoms that Curry experienced in Chicago. We know that Curry had a motive for weight loss (he’s lazy, he was in a contract year and needed to prove that he could get in shape) and a motive to subsequently lie about it (it’s a performance-enhancing drug that is banned, but probably isn’t tested for since it’s available over the counter to anyone who has a cold).

That said, Curry may still have the condition everyone is afraid he has. But revisiting the question, I think it’s not very likely he does.

Hey guys, I am a Hornets fan with a few questions. First off I am sorry for the recent spate of bad luck, but it seems like you guys still do a great job of packing the stadium, so congrats on not beiong fair weather L.A. fans. I think the Hornets and Knicks are bizarro versions of each other. You guys have a low win team that is financially viable, and we have a high win team that isn’t.

Anyway, my question is whether y’all think that a trade of Bobby Jackson, Rasual Butler, Hilton Armstrong and maybe a first found pick for Curry, and Balkman and maybe Randloph Morris makes sense. You guys need a p.g. and although he is declining, Bobby’s contract comes off the books after ’09. Butler is struggling but he is a good defender who can hit the three and doesn’t need alot of shots to play well, and his 4 mill a year comes off the books in 10. Hilton can guard the 4 and the 5, but he can’t do much else. I think he is the perfect player to put next to Zack.

I find this question problematic in that it presupposes that one of the two subjects is in fact more tradable than the other. The voting scheme reinforces this presupposition by only providing the option to choose one of the two players.

The way the question is phrased, as well as the voting choices ignores a very plausible conclusion that being: each player is equally untradable, or equally difficult to trade.

Eddy Curry and Zach Randolph are, in my opinion, evenly matched in terms of tradability. I think Mike K. alluded to this in his article.

I. Contracts

Curry has a more favorable contract in terms of total salary owed; however, this is offset by two factors. 1) Curry has not displayed that he can be as productive as Zach Randolph. Eddy Curry’s career high in scoring was achieved last year with 19 ppg. This career high is book ended by 13 ppg seasons. Curry’s career averages: 13 ppg 5.4 rebounds per game. 2) Eddy Curry has not provided medical proof that he is not predisposed to serious heart condition. This prevents teams from securing an insurance policy on his contract in the event that Curry was not able to play basketball again. A team could be paying Curry for several years without getting production from him (much like the Knicks are currently doing). With many teams trying to reduce salary, Curry becomes unfavorable.

Randolph is owed significantly more money than Curry over the same period. However, this is offset by the fact that Randolph has been a much more productive player than Curry. Randolph is averaging five more rebounds a game and scoring seven more points per game. Randolph has played the same number of seasons as Curry and does not come with the same insurance and health issues. However, with many teams trying to get away from the luxury tax the idea of paying Randolph 17 million in two seasons is daunting.

II. Defense

It is without question that each player is a horrid defender, particularly in terms of help defense, weak side defense, and making correct rotations. Curry defensive rebounding woes are offset by the fact that he can block the occasional shot and his size makes him useful against an immobile center in a man-to-man scheme. Curry is routinely burned by centers that move without the ball, or set up away from the basket then drive the lane. A growing number of centers play this way.

Randolph is not a good man defender. He will not block shots or even get into passing lanes. he does not poke the ball away from a player, nor does he prevent a player from catching the ball. This is offset (only in comparison to Curry) by Randolph’s excellent work on the defensive glass. Defensive rebounding is helpful because it at least prevents a second chance to score. Teams are much more likely to score on a possession if they have to chances to score. Defensive rebounding prevents repeat opportunities to score.

III. Finding a trade partner

Finding a team that thinks it can win with either player will be very difficult. Neither player has shown that he can be part of a serious contender. Neither player should be matched with a frontcourt mate that cannot play defense (Isaiah why did you not realize this?). This means that to move Curry, he must be paired with a defensive power forward that rebounds very well. To move Randolph, he must be paired with a defensive center that rebounds very well. Very few teams have players that fit into that category.

IV. Conclusion

I believe that each player brings a number of unfavorable conditions to a potential trade partner in terms of salary, play, and team building. It will be very difficult to trade either player. Had I been provided the option to vote for “each player is equally difficult to trade” I would have done so. However, that was not an option and I must play by the rules provided.

Having said that, I will vote for Curry as the more tradable player because he is a center and he costs less that Randolph. There have been no published concerns with Curry’s heart since leaving Chicago. That may be enough to calm fears about his health. Additionally, Curry is a center and size has always tempted GMs to go out and acquire a center despite his production and career averages (see: Jerome James, Benoit Benjamin, Stromile Swift, Bryant Reeves, Todd Macullah, ect.).

“The brain suffers from a lack of oxygen and the person collapses. Many times this condition has warning signs (like and arrythmia or feeling light headed during exercise)”

Well, it makes sense that Curry is out of shape if exercise makes him collapse. Even if he doesn’t have the condition, he may not want to exert himself. That certainly limits his trade value…

With Yinka Dare dying recently from an arrhythmia at the age of 32 (and the two having a similar physical build (Curry’s actually shorter and heavier than Dare was), not to mention strikingly similar basketball skills), I can see why no team would want anything to do with Curry– especially considering the risk could be so great and the player is so marginal.

Thanks for the response. This is why it is good to talk this stuff out with other teams. I think there is always a tendency to over value your own people and under value other players.

Hilton has been a good low post defender who like I said can do a pretty good job of guarding 4 and 5’s but that reall is about it. Him and ‘sual are similar in that you can pretty much ignore them on offense without too much trouble.

Does taking Balkman out of the picture make the deal a bit more reasonable. Is the first rounder still necessarry in that case? My worry is putting Eddy on a team without wings who can rebound, defend and block shots. I think Azubuike would be the perfect kind of player to put next to Eddy. It really is a shame that you can’t play Balkman next to Eddy more often with the lack of spot up shooters.

A good friend of mine is a doctor at the hospital in Chicago that Eddy Curry was sent to after experiencing symptoms that raised questions about his heart.

To this day my friend says that it’s not a positive for Curry that the doctors never gave him a clean bill of health. He said that the hospital’s behavior during the analysis indicated something larger was afoot.

While Curry frustrates me as a player, I believe he’s a very good kid and hope nothing happens to him. However, I think that a Thomas-led Knicks is the only professional organization that would take Curry in. Set aside the other gm’s. You’d need an owner less competent than Dolan to move Curry.

Nets get alot from that deal. Harris is very good at getting to the rim. The two draft picks should yield good young prospects. They get some salary cap help. If they can unload Carter, they can move to full rebuilding mode.

how much sense that deal makes for Dallas depends somewhat on whether Stackhouse resigns with Dallas after being released by NJ. otherwise, it’s a lot of depth to give up, I don’t know why Cuban wouldn’t spend the money and use the Van Horn slot.

Dallas has two years max out of this deal. Perhaps considering in 5 years Dirk may be past it the trade makes sense. As for NJ, they got back a young point guard at the head of the second tier behind Paul and Deron Williams.

That’s a fantastic deal for Jersey… Kidd’s value is sinking fast… and I’m a big fan of Diop. Hard to believe they were able to get him, too. Dallas is definitely short a big body, and if they’re taking JK, they’re definitely not thinking about the future… so it’s not farfetched to think they’d have interest in Curry.

Problem is — I don’t think they have a salary to match. The only guys making big money are Dirk, Kidd, Josh Howard, Jason Terry and Dampier. The first four won’t be on the market; they won’t trade Dampier for a worse player (who plays no D) and we don’t want a guy with a longer contract anyway.

if Dallas has any interest in Curry (I don’t see why they would), it would be in the offseason. it’s a lot easier to work in a new PG who tries to get everyone involved midseason as opposed to a big guy who doesn’t rebound or play D.

“it’s hard to figure out why Cuban wouldn’t pay the extra luxury tax for a player he wants and use the Van Horn loophole.”

In theory, sure, but he seemed dead-set against doing that for Kidd… to the point of making a worse trade, including Diop, PO’ing Stackhouse. And if he wouldn’t do it for Kidd, would he really do it for Curry?

Carter is basically deadweight, so it doesn’t solve our long-term cap issues… but if anything, he is more tradeable than Randolph or Curry, so it’s not a step backwards, and we get 1 or 2 good young assets.

But ask yourself – why in the hell would Jersey even consider that trade?

I’m not sure about the Dallas trade. One of the big issues in the west is defending quick PGs. Harris is a good defender, but Kidd gets schooled by guys like Nash, Paul and Parker. Their offense will run more smoothly, to be sure, but I think they lost some of their ability to match up with some of those teams. Also, unless Stackhouse comes back, he’s one of their most clutch players and the best scorer off their bench (well, Terry might be now, but he’s effectively a starter). He also creates big match-up problems, as he’s a beast for shooting guards to play down low and too quick for some of the small forwards (Phoenix used to guard him with Marion, and SA often uses Bowen on him, both of which indicate his quality).

I think Dallas is a loser in this trade, both this year and in the future…

I think Stern gets to pick a replacement for the East, and I think Kidd plays for the West. If so, then Stern probably picks a reserve to drop, or he lets the West carry an extra player. Is this not the same issue with Shaq?

Also what happens with that Heat Hawks game that has to be replayed because Shaq fouled out with only 5 fouls?

Your friend likely knows more about that situation than me, but I’m not surprised the doctors did not give him “a clean bill of health.” They want to use all the information available that they can before they come to a conclusion. The genetic test would have helped them make that decision. But problem is only half of the people with the disease even have the mutation, and there is a lot of potential for false positives. This means Curry’s career may have been ended by a test that may not even been true! But given the risk of lawsuit, doctors would definitely not rule out the diagnosis without as much information as possible. However, they can say, “it’s likely Curry does not have this disease,” which is probably true. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be on the court right now.

I’m a Nets fan as much as I am a Knicks fan (yeah, yeah….), and I have to tell you, from that perspective- that trade is a total steal for Jersey. I’d have done Kidd for Harris straight up and been glad of the opportunity. While Kidd will likely play better for the Mavs than he has for the Nets, his skills are clearly eroding rapidly- he was never quick, but is now positively glacial; his shot, never good, is now bad; he’s defensively “ok” at best; and his turnover numbers are through the roof. At this point Harris is the better player, I think.

As for Carter for Curry- yikes. Honestly, I think both guys are literally worth less than nothing at this point given production vs. cost ratios, but also from the Nets perspective- I’d just as soon stick with Carter. There’s almost no one who can score on Jersey (though Harris will help) so he still serves some sort of role, and Kristic has looked good enough in his comeback to merit giving him the rest of this year to audition for an extension. If he bombs, both teams could revisit this sort of idea at the draft.

“Also what happens with that Heat Hawks game that has to be replayed because Shaq fouled out with only 5 fouls?”

This is a hot topic down here in Atlanta… basically Miami gets hosed. The Hawks actually get to pick the replacement player for Shaq — meaning they can force the Heat to call a TO, to replace whatever scrub the Hawks put in the lineup.

I think everyone is hoping that the Heat just tell the league to forget it.

Considering the Heat are playing for lottery position, I don’t know why they wouldn’t basically forfeit at this point.

I would see if the Nets would take Wilson Chandler (and Collins, or Morris, for salary match) for Diop. He’s a terrific defensive player, with a rebound rate virtually identical to Lee & Randolph, and he just turned 26.

I suspect Rod Thorn is too smart for that.. but then again, Diop will cost a lot more to re-sign so it would save them $$, and Chandler is a nice prospect.

It’s a very good deal for Jersey, too.
I think this trade is fairly even given each team got what they wanted.
Dallas needs to win now with the team they have and they’ll get Stackhouse back in 30 days.
Nice deal.

“I would see if the Nets would take Wilson Chandler (and Collins, or Morris, for salary match) for Diop. He’s a terrific defensive player, with a rebound rate virtually identical to Lee & Randolph, and he just turned 26.

I suspect Rod Thorn is too smart for that.. but then again, Diop will cost a lot more to re-sign so it would save them $$, and Chandler is a nice prospect.”

they do have Boone and Williams already, not to mention Krstic, you’d think one of those guys would be available.

Caleb:
I can’t stand Carter. I’m so tired of the me-first a-holes who play one part of the game and basically mail it in the rest of the time. Why would we need another two guard who plays only part of the game?

Frank, much of what you say is true and Vince is definitely a hard guy to root for… but even now, he’s a million times better than Curry (or Crawford). It’s not like we’re signing him as an addition – it’s a swap of overpaid guys, with us getting picks or prospects in the bargain.

Yeah great deal for New Jersey. (I wonder what it’s like to blog about a GM that makes good deals). Harris is a nice player statistically. TS%, eFG & per minute numbers are solid. I’d like to see what he’s going to do outside of Dallas. Also curious how his three point shooting will develop. Diop is what you’d expect from a Net center – good defensively (by per minute stats anyway), but an awful scorer.

BTW last I checked you can’t trade a player that you just acquired, so Diop in orange & blue without one of Isiah’s classic MLE deals isn’t going to happen.

IMHO Diop would be a bargain at the mid-level… he’s young, and also a terrific rebounder. I suppose you could argue that we need to avoid signing anyone for any reason at all — but I think he’d be easy to move later on, if we ever had to make a true, all-out salary dump.

Im a Harris fan, too.. great D. I believe he’s had the best plus-minus on the Mavs the past two seasons.

Re: not being able to trade a player that you just acquired — I’m pretty sure Diop could conceivably be traded to the Knicks, but it would have to be him alone. You can turn around and deal players you’ve just acquired but only individually, not as part of any package.

I would rather see Randolph go. Curry has more potential to become a decent defender and Randolph is a terrible defender and is a numbers guy only. Curry is also a numbers guy but is a 7 footer. I can’t believe the Nuggets want him, I think that is only a rumor. I really hope he gets traded.

i dont think we need a trade. personally, theres been one lineup that seems to work well and this is it. i remember when curry had like 15 straight 20 point games last year. he is only bad this year because randolf is a black hole. personally, we should trade randolf for anything, as long as it doesnt pick up a long contract. for a little bit last year, we had the eight seed. it happened when we used a lineup like this, with a few changes. i think this lineup would at least be the 7 seed this year, maybe even the 6. i could even see us upsetting orlando, and making it to the second round.

the keys to us winning are stop playing randolf, post up curry way more, stop playing Q, and use balkman alot more. the amount of minutes aren’t definite of course, but i think that would work. the one weakness i see is that we only have 2 shooters, but worst case, we put fred jones at SF to have 3 shooters out there.

Ben Bow: it’s hard to argue with those points. However, each of these teams would be taking a gamble. Carter and O’neal were superstars but neither is playing like one consistently (if ever) now. O’neal’s recent trade overtures are never going to go away. The Pacers would be better off getting something decent before a bad attitude makes things worse. Ditto Carter (especially if Kidd leaves Jersey). I think (believe it or not) each of those guys responds well to Isaiah and has a good year or two.

The Pacers make the Dunleavy for Jefferson deal straight up, any day of the week. In Randolph, they get O’neal’s numbers but younger.

Nets make the deal to get three guys (a 2, 3 and a 5) who can get 20+ on any given night and make their team younger. On the surface I think you’re right but again, Carter and O’neal are no sure things.