Spazmatazz, I just want to say I too went through a confusing awakening about the issue of feminism being for white middle class women. My dad is white and my mom is Mexican American, but I look more white so I sort of grew up 'white', whatever that means. When I was a self-rightous teenager I got into feminism, and started getting really angry about old-fashioned traditions in high school like the whole Homecoming Queen thing. My mom, being American-born went to a mostly white high school, and was actually voted Homecoming Queen in 1968. I joked that I would have hated her if I were in her class. It started an interesting conversation about that time for her. On one hand she felt that it was a racial truimph, being a brown girl who was arguably the most popular girl in her mostly white school. But then she went to college (the first in her family to go) and second wave feminism as well as the civil rights movement was in full swing. She felt very torn. She felt like she was a feminist in the sense that women should have equal pay and education rights, but also felt very connected to her Chicano brothers in their plight, so could not join the man-hating that was becoming popular. When issues like women wanting to get out of the house and join the workforce came up, she couldnt help but laugh because all the women in her life HAD to work, be it steamstressing or fruit packing, because as poor immigrants the men could not make enough to support their families. So she felt like is was a white middle class option, to be able to work or stay home.

The leg-shaving is a big confusing issue to her too. Many women in Mexico and South America don't shave their legs, and if they come to America it really makes them stand out as immigrants or indigenous people. So, in order to fit in an seem more American, my mom and her sisters did shave their legs...so when the hairy-leg hippy-feminist trend started happening, it was very hard for them to get on board. A white, thin-haired woman can come off as a rebelious flower-child, but a brown coarse-haired woman just comes off as an illegal.

Anyway, just some thoughts on that!

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I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters

Personally I think women's studies shoots itself in the foot by remaining a separate academic discipline, thus ghettoising itself. I never took a 'women's studies' class, but I did read feminist theory in several different contexts, from film theory to english lit to reading The Beauty Myth for fun. I enjoyed much of it, although I believed some of it was too abstract to apply to real life, and was happy to be given access to various schools of thought within feminist theory.

'there are so many factions of feminists nowadays. probably always?' That's how I feel, spazmatazz.

Queen of the underground
Posts: 1,117
From: the capital of flyover country

My experience in a women's studies class was just awful. I went in identifying as a feminist and went out thinking, "thank goodness this was not my introduction to feminism," and keeping my identity as a feminist at arm's length for several years. Our professor once lectured us on how if we were dating a man, we shouldn't agree to sleep at his apartment because that was encouraging the patriarchy. That was the mildest of rebukes she delivered, but her take one everything was all about applying broad statements to individual situations. She also thought no one should have children in a hospital and didn't want to discuss women who didn't want to have children.

My experience was not all that different from what mandolyn described. This was in 2000, if I remember correctly. It was one of my last two years, and I was extremely disappointed. It might have been one of the worst classes I've ever taken.

i was fortunate enough to have a pretty amazing experience in my women's studies classes (it was my minor). i went into college a pretty hard core feminist, and i would still identify as such, but those classes gave me a whole new set of perspectives on feminism.

the first time we read bell hooks our prof led us into a discussion about one of the criticisms of feminism being that it tends to be a middle-class, white woman's movement. that had never occurred to me (probably because i am middle-class and white). it really made me examine my role within the movement, as well as my motivations for wanting to be a part of it. ahhh...good times.

i remember feeling so incredibly empowered by it all...and so excited to be doing that kind of soul-searching, and trying to find my place in the world. feminism was a kind of safe harbor for me (sort of like BUST is becoming), and it has rarely let me down. it's been a long time since i've felt that way about anything else.

for me, feminism has become a much more personal, rather than the feeling that i'm part of a collective...there are so many factions of feminists nowadays. probably always?

I second erinjane's recommendation of Feminism is for Everybody by bell hooks, it should be a pre-requistite read as it is so accessible compared to other erudite academic texts that are simply high falutin.

All of this is reminding me that in my first women's studies class during freshman year, there was precisely ONE GUY in the particular course I was taking, and when we went around introducing ourselves to the other students, the guy said something along the lines of, "I'm here to get laid." Yeah. That made him real popular. ::heavy sarcasm:: I don't even remember now if he lasted the entire semester; I doubt it.

This was in the early '90s before Clinton was elected, and at a school that was originally established as a women's college but had been coed for more than a generation.

I never wanted to be a WS major, though; it was English Lit all the way.

now running on biodiesel and sacrificial blood
Posts: 2,227
From: the little house on the hill

*delurks to echo what yufie said*

I sometimes wish I had the option of taking something like women's studies. Mind you, at my college, I think it could do with being fucking compulsory. Somehow, what should be a shining light for feminism and pro-women and everything like that is, in fact, a combination of girls-gone-wild and ladette culture as 500 girls compete for the attention of 50 blokes (at the last count, half of which were gay), and everyone is mean to the lesbian couple. *sigh*

I want to add something along the lines of what erinjane said. My experience in women's studies classes has also been fantastic, but I'm sure it depends on all sorts of variables: the prof, the dynamics of the class, the setting, and the political atmosphere during which it is taken.

I myself have a wonderful prof who is also in the poli-sci department, so the personal is political phrase is big with her. However, she emphasizes that it is our personal everyday issues that should band us together to make political differences, not to fragment us along the million lines of difference that separate us. She really engenders a feeling of pride in the things that make us all unique, and we can take these things and use them not only to our own advantage but also to reach out to others who share in similar experiences.

Anyhow, a little bit of a ramble, but I feel really bad that some of you have had such bad experiences in women's studies. It's not my major, or even minor for that matter, but these courses (and moreover the women who teach them and comprise the class) have been so important in shaping the way I see things and expanding my idea of what diversity really means. I grew up in a white-picket fence middle class neighbourhood on the Canadian prairies, and so my experience of these things was rather limited. Feminism has opened my mind to all sorts of things that I may never have even begun to understand otherwise.

when i was in college, i took several women's studies classes, with the intent of making it my minor.

the third class i took ... midway through, half of the class stopped shaving, wearing makeup, etc, several women broke off hetero engagements, more than a few of the women started dating each other, and it became an all-out war of "you can't be a feminist unless you completely forsake the patriarchy". i can't remember a more confusing and heartbreaking catfight. not to sound melodramatic, but it pretty much traumatized me.

i dropped the class, quit reading feminist literature, and never looked back. i switched my minor to greek and roman classics instead. (talk about embracing the patiarchy, heh!)

I think this is so unfortunate and happens way too often. Part of the problem is what bell hooks says, that academia makes feminism less accessable for everyone else. (In my city however, I do see a really strong feminist movement in the general public.) By the way, I think everyone should read "Feminism is for Everybody".

How long ago were you in college? I was wondering because my experience as a women's studies major has been great. One of the things I love about my classes is that everyone is so diverse, profs included, and generally accepting of how others want to express themselves. But I think I've heard a few horror stories about the women's studies program at the larger university in winnipeg.

mandy: when i was in college, i was living in a lesbian collective. my housemates wouldn't let any men friends come to visit. men were The Enemy. i was suspect because although i was living with a woman who was my lover, i self-identified as bisexual (not what i would call it now). it was an all or nothing sort of thing, then. anyone besides me remember the Equal Rights Amendment?

so i have a small idea of what you and raisin d'etre are talking about. i like lipstick and cooking too. and although i haven't shaved my legs since those same days in college, you can NOT tell because the hair on my legs is very fine and very blonde. which is great now, but which was a grave disappointment back then.

girltrouble, thank you for such an eloquent post. reading it gave me chicken skin.

Mando, I can relate a lot to what you said about your college experience. I really think if I were taking the women's studies courses at my college at my age now, I would have a COMPLETELY different experience, not one that's better or worse, but different. I don't know how to explain it. In my heart I know I'm a feminist (and yes, that is probably the only thing that counts) even if on the outside I do like to shave my armpits, cook, and wear lipstick. Oh yeah, and I STILL believe in chivalry. Sometimes IRL I think I'm the only one who embraces both feminism and femininity. That's what keeps me coming back to the pink leopard spots.

that was the point i was trying to make, mandy. i've seen it so many times, so many different groups. it's not the actions that make you a feminist. your experience in that class is the end result of that thinking. it is a set of unrealistic rules and expectations. but taken to it's logical conclusion it is a formula that results not in uplift of all, but a pervading feeling of inadequacy and insecurity. of not trying to make yourself better, but picking at other's to make yourself feel better. and when i heard maddy29 talking about getting her hair lasered, hey, i could relate. i've been waxed, nair'd, shaved, lasered and electrol'd. i was trying to tell her, that doesn't matter. that's NOT what makes you a femnist. it's that you understand and are aware of the mechanism of patriarchy. you pick your battles, you find the balance that is right for YOU. and your choice is not always gonna be right for me. or her, or that woman over there. women pick on and pick apart each other for so much bullshit. clothes and hair and whatever else. and now you want to use feminism for more ammunition? people talk about what makes them sick? that makes me sick.

one of the tactics of the patriarchy is divide and conquer. pit, latinos vs blacks vs africans vs arabs vs... women, the poor, the middle class, etc. but within each of those groups keep the members picking at each other so they can't make any real. collective. progress. let's not fall for that trap, k? i'm just sayin' there was a time when this place felt like home, but it doesn't anymore. not to me. but i do want the best for busties, but i can't be a part of it. like i said above, when i made that inital comment to maddy, my intentions were to commiserate, and i feel like in so many ways that attempt to say, i've been there too have come back to bite me in the ass, hard. and i would have been fine, but bdsm is as close to a religion as i get, it's very sacred to me. very profound, and to have someone give these flip, sarcastic comments about that and my transexuality-- that hurt and angered me very much. i have friends ask me about being trans and i am the most open person there is about it-- provided it is asked in a respectful manner. one that is open to hear. but when i talked about that, i opened myself up. are there really many busties who would be as honest about things like wanting a boob job, being an escort, and all the other things i've talked about? i think it's so much better to be honest, about transexuality, sexuality, desire, because without that honesty we rot away in our little closets, dying of loneliness. thinking we are the only ones, that we are bad for how we honestly feel. so i said it. i put it out there, i did it in a spirit of trust of this board, and the people on it, because i thought this place could be my home and again, it came back to bite me in the ass. your reply maddy, felt like you had made your mind up, your comments about my desires, my transexuality, about who i am, hurt me to the core. to the core. i have been hurt by so many people that i have confided in. the night i told my best friend i was on hormones and was transitioning, he got drunk, hit on my girlfriend and told her she should "lose me cos i was a fucking freak." this is a person i would have litterally given my life for, not 24 hours earlier. and when you made your comments, i bit my tongue as long as i could, but with those words, all those wounds ripped open. they broke my heart. those things i said about how much i respected and admired you, and your posts, were honest, and it felt like as i had respect for you, you had little more than contempt for me. de ja vu. and the rest of the acusitory posts from other people only drove the knife deeper. i felt--feel--betrayed, and very very hurt. i know other people have seen it differenly and they have posted to say so, but this is how i feel. not looking for sympathy, i'm just telling you where i'm coming from

maddy, you have every right to practice whatever kind of feminism you choose. that is your call. but, honestly, what has that feminism got you? you yourself were talking about how you felt bad for something so small as getting your legs done. when i ask you this, this isn't a retorical question, and i know you think that i "didn't get" what you were saying but i got it, because i have seen that thinking in application. i wasn't trying to attack you, that wasn't where i was coming from. my intentions were good, as i said, i understood that guilt, because i had been there. but we have to get past the idea of our personal actions being anything more than personal. read what mandy wrote. that is what the positive or negative binary results in: casualties, who find themselves unable to make choices because of opression. feminist opression, but that doesnt make it any less opressive.

i know you have been thru your own hells, as have i. mine are no more or no less horrible than yours, but they guide you in how you choose to live your life, as mine guide how i live mine. but please don't let your enthusiasm to be a feminist and all that means to you blind you to the dangers strict, hard rules can yield. tell me, what is more feminist: not wearing makeup or putting pressure on congress to ensure getting equal pay? not wearing skirts, or getting real anti-spousal abuse laws passed? plucking your eyebrows or...? sometimes a little perspective is needed. the point isn't to point fingers at anyone, but to point fingers at the power structure and effect change. all the rest, all the rest, the personal choices, the absolutes, the judgements, all of that, is bullshit that keeps us from getting together with other women and DOING SOMETHING.

who cares about how anyone else chooses to live your life if it makes em happy? how much value can feminism have if it makes us miserable, unhappy, guilty, and snarky? i've read so many posts talking about how porn actresses are bad for women, but how good is it for women to judge other women for their feminism or judging if they measure up to some feminist standard. i think that does far more damage. guys never judge each other like women. not even close. what do you think scares the patriarchy most? women united in a cause, or women not wearing skirts? the occasional porn actress, or pressure to ensure women are paid equally? don't we have bigger fish to fry?

as i said, i throw out these questions, and the questions i asked in the porn thread not to be retorical, but because i would honestly like to hear busties answer the questions, and say why they feel how they do. because as long as we gloss over the answers, this "anti/non-feminist" dogma stays theoretical, and we don't see the damage it can do. mandy's, seen first hand that damage. and just one small slice of that is that you hesitate to call yourself a feminist because you know the end result of that sort of rigid thinking. in that class you saw that nice pretty theoretical castle. but saw how in the real world, people get hurt by that thinking. i'm the proof. mandy you're the proof, and i'm sure we're not alone. its not some sort of 'persecution complex', but truth borne out of personal, painful experience.

i know the "personal is political" is the phase said over and over again, but why are the choices i make anybody's business but my own? if we were talking about bdsm, or abortion, maddy, you wouldn't want anyone making choices for any woman other than the woman involved, but when we make these value judgements saying x is not feminist, like in my case to say that getting fake boobs isn't feminist, is also to say that i, or any other woman making that same choice, is not ADULT ENOUGH to make an informed choice for her life. and i know you don't mean that. what i do with my body, my choice, is mine to make. if you really believe in feminism, then you have to believe in women to make their own choices. and value judgements have no place in feminism, because feminists believe that women are capable of making the choices that suit their lives best. that, to me is feminism, and feminism isn't about making new rules for women, but about making change. and if we are talking about making change-- reall change-- then the personal is personal and political is POLITICAL. tell me what is changed other than self-esteem by someone feeling, guilty because they don't feel aren't feminist enough, and being alienated from feminism? i would rather have positive motivating ideas that don't require a single rule of thumb for all the beautiful varieties of women in this world. and, yeah it's true, i am not gonna change jack shit with my fake boobs, but should it disqualify me when i call my congress person, protest and network with those i know to make political change? it is not the myopic that is going to get us somewhere. its not pointing fingers at ourselves or others for the tiny things that make us happy, maddy, and that is what i was trying to tell you. it is pointing the fingers at the power structure and changing them and that is PERSONAL, POLITICAL. and REAL.

ok. i've said my piece. take care busties.-gt.

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"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve

to this day, i'm not sure i classify myself as a feminist, and i shy away from most of the heated, political discussions in here. i never quite feel like i completely belong on any "side".

I don't feel like I'm on any side neither. It seems like most of my friends who claim to be feminists are the stereotypical "men-hating" types who blame men for everything. I don't think thats what feminism is about nor will it ever help resolve any issues. I don't think there will ever be equality between men and women just like there will never be equality between races. While most will embrace other races and or a multicultural society, there are many that will disagree with that. I personally feel if things will ever be equal, there has to be a level of respect and a deeper understanding and connection with men.

when i was in college, i took several women's studies classes, with the intent of making it my minor.

the third class i took ... midway through, half of the class stopped shaving, wearing makeup, etc, several women broke off hetero engagements, more than a few of the women started dating each other, and it became an all-out war of "you can't be a feminist unless you completely forsake the patriarchy". i can't remember a more confusing and heartbreaking catfight. not to sound melodramatic, but it pretty much traumatized me.

i dropped the class, quit reading feminist literature, and never looked back. i switched my minor to greek and roman classics instead. (talk about embracing the patiarchy, heh!)

to this day, i'm not sure i classify myself as a feminist, and i shy away from most of the heated, political discussions in here. i never quite feel like i completely belong on any "side".

except in my own mind, and within my own rationale, i know in my heart i'm a feminist. for me, it's all about choice. plain and simple.

and to end this completely nonsensical and probably way OT babble, i can't help but applaud those of you who make the "road less travelled", non-mainstream choices. oh, that i weren't so fucking repressed!

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"... what i want is what i've not gotand what i need is all around me."

muito thank you, greenbean, for bringing the issues that were upsetting me in the BDSM thread out of there and into this thread where i feel that i can talk about them.

i realize that you were quoting from the TiH site, but i still need to take umbrage at the comparison of pedophile to BDSM. i can't equate the two at all, even in a theoretical debate. people who get off on non-consensual sex with a young person who is unable to understand what is happening and what is basically rape just is NOT the same as a sub/dom relationship where there are two or more consenting adults who have gone out of their way to establish ground rules and limits (how far the domination can go, having safe words, having safe gestures-- such as a hand slap on the bed when something needs to stop).

i don't think that you were equating them, but i needed to state that disconnect unequivocably. what we feel that embarrasses us or makes us feel guilty may or may not have any connection with something that OUGHT to make us feel badly about ourselves.

i've been both a dom and a sub. mostly a dom, because -- surprise! -- i am a confident, successful woman who feels that she is indeed a feminist and isn't afraid to say so. i like to be in control. that is one of the reasons that it is so LIBERATING for me to be a sub. for once, i don't have to make the decisions. i just have to do what i am told. the onus is taken off of me. i am free to feel the pleasure and the pain of what is happening to me, and it is exhilarating.

i'm not here to try to "convert" anyone. i don't need to convert people to have my own beliefs as to what is good and what is bad, especially where SEX is concerned. i'm just here to say that if you don't want to read about how good people feel because they finally have a place where they can talk about how BDSM makes them feel so good without being judged, then you shouldn't be reading the BDSM thread.

the entire thing that went down recently in that thread reminded me of the inexhaustible debate about whether or not boy children should be circumcised --- in a thread here in the lounge about 2 1/2 years or so ago. eventually, the entire debate crumbled and it became all about bashing the other side's beliefs, no matter which side you were on. it was sad then and it is sad now, to think that we can't hold these beliefs and still respect each other.

okay. i think i've gotten that bit out of my system now. again, green bean, my thanks for bringing the issue up here so we can take it out of the thread where it doesn't belong.

Okay, I know a lot of Busties are sick of the shit storm that has been going on, please don't think I'm trying to start riling anyone up,...but since there has been some misunderstanding about those of us Busties who identify as feminists AND subs in our relationships, please accept my heartfelt attempt to explain our point of view.

Maddy, the Fun with Floggers thread is a safe place because most of us can't talk about our desires IRL, for fear of the reaction that you had. You may be thinking, like many Christians do about gays, "if you are so insecure about it than its because deep inside you know its wrong." Well maybe, maybe not, but personally its hard to stay confident about your sexual desires when people that you respect are sickened by it.

I like the Bust Lounge because it is a large umbrella of feminism that lets many under it. There are more radical feminist sites that aren't as accepting. "I blame the Patriarchy" is one of them, and last year they went apeshit after discovering the "Taken in Hand" site. Maddy, you probably relate with a lot of what they say here, and I don't mean that in a bitchy way, I mean that there are plently that feel like you do about this. The link: http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2006/0...rape-is-a-gift/

As a discretion, they are discussing a poorly titled article that was written on TiH, "When Rape is a Gift". Many women were shocked at this title, even regular members on TiH, but it wasn't really about rape, but about blanket consent in a relationship. Again, I'M not defending that particular article, it is the more extreme end of a TiH relationship, BUT the way the "Blamers" attacked women who identify as subs really got my blood boiling.

ETA: The discussion on the "I Blame the Patriarchy" is looooooog, but if anyone wants to read it I believe it is a thourough debate on feminist politics regarding sexual choices. I understand the concern many of the radical feminists have, but most of their comments I feel are hurtful. This was the most upseting exchange to me:

antiprincess says: "I’ve spent the past twenty-some years trying to make peace with my weird little secret (being a sub), wrestling with my despicable, pitiful, sicksicksickness. talk about self-criticism - believe me, I’ve faced down an entire North Korean re-education camp’s worth of self-criticism, and its attendant self-loathing, self-disgust, self-destruction. I’ve thought long and hard about it, and come to the conclusion that I’m just fucked up that way, and the less I obsess about how pathetic and dirty and sick I am, the more functional and normal I’m able to be. So what should I do? I want to be progressive and politically aware and fight oppression, all of that - and yet you’re telling me that the way I process the sexual experience is so screwed up that I can’t blame the patriarchy like the cool kids. Maybe I should just not even try to be sexual at all, lest I call the wrath of the patriarchy (or the patriarchy-blamers) down upon us all. Do I sacrifice my orgasm for the revolution?"

To that Veet says:"How about try the little exercise of substituting “pedophile” for your ‘weird little secret”. What do you think a pedophile should do, get into ’self-criticism, and its attendant self-loathing, self-disgust, self-destruction’ so long as (he) is not asked to “sacrifice my orgasm for the revolution’?And yes, you could, maybe should, get some help. Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is proving to be incredibly successful, and you can use a book or online. Instead of whipping your own self with ‘how pathetic and dirty and sick I am.'"

and Puffin says:"As far as the revolution goes, I’ve always found that to be a revolutionary, you have to be willing to think about more than just your own personal liberty. Revolution is about the common good. It’s about fighting for something bigger than your orgasm, for instance."

WOW!? Really? The greater feminist good wants women to SACRIFICE their orgasms? And a female sub is as dangeous to society as a PEDOPHILE? Thats rich.

Anyway, the dialogue gets really good when the woman who actually wrote the TiH article chimes in and has this to say:"It seems to me that one of the mistakes some parts of the feminist movement make is in trying to replace one set of prescriptions and proscriptions with another, instead of advocating free choice. It is no good making compulsory that which was once forbidden, any more than it would be a good thing to make that which was once compulsory, forbidden. Until we all uphold the freedom of others to make their own choices for their own lives, whether their choices are ours or not, I think there will still be a problem to solve. We are all individuals, with our own individual preferences, and the mere fact that you find my preferences repugnant does not make them wrong or harmful in any way. Similarly, if the day came when Taken In Hand were about to be made compulsory, I would be fighting to the death to prevent that appalling outcome. As many posters on my site have said, it would be an abomination if it were compulsory."

"I understand that some posters writing here think that my site may adversely influence impressionable and vulnerable women (and perhaps turn perfectly decent men into rapists), but I personally don’t take such a pessimistic view of people. I don’t see other people as the weak and easily-influenced sheep some of you seem to see them as. I think that people can make up their own minds, and that they are perfectly capable of reading my site criticially."

Amen. I too think more highly of women and men, that we can think for ourselves and are not so easily manipulated by "the Patriarchy".

Thank you for letting me share this in here. I think its good for everyone to have their own point of view. I certainly don't think all women should be subs, or doms, or alphas or betas...we need variety! The final speech in "Team America" comes to mind. As crass and corny and sexist as it was, the "dicks, pussies and assholes" was a brilliant speech. I think it applies here.

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I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters

If that is what turns you on, it's okay, but I think there's a majority out there who don't get turned on by that.

the majority, as usual, is hetero men. the britney-madonna girls-making-out trend is clearly not for the participating girls' own enjoyment. if we see more "unusual" sex practices in the mainstream, it's mostly because it's for the commerce and entertainment of the majority.