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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by Karellen

I'm a little disappointed. This scenario's not uninteresting, but I'd prefer if Parson had prepared for this eventuality in a more sophisticated manner.

Also, I'm a little troubled by how the game mechanics and unit strengths seem to fluctuate a lot depending on what's convenient for storytelling. I guess they'd have to, but still, wounded or not, it seems a little off to me that all those dragons could be "totally wiped out" just like that by a half a dozen units with just a single warlord.

Remember that stacks of 8 are in some sense optimal, more units stop adding a stack bonus whatever that means. So the Dwagon's probably CAN'T all engage effectively at once since there are more than 8 of them.

Parson does know more of the rules, and he CHOSE to engage the Dwagons in stacks of 5 + 3 Warlords, almost as if more would be an active disadvantage or at the least no advantage at all. Parson's force was working it's way down the line with the line headed more or less toward Gobwin Knob, so relaying in "fresh" Dwagons DIDN'T save the Dwagons much movement, all those withdraws and relaying back and forth cost movement too, why in the world would he bother if 19+3 is much stronger than 5+3? Just move in all 19+3 and wipe the entire stack without withdrawing at all. But in fact he chose the repeated withdraw option, almost as if the presence of an additional 14 dwagons WOULDN'T HELP NOTICABLY. Maybe, just maybe, when they TOLD us more than 8 doesn't add to the stack bonus and that therefor you see lots of stacks of 8 what they ment is that more than 8 is no real help, rather than that 25 is vastly stronger than 8 since everyone gets to attack at once anyway under many of the interpretations I'm seeing.

Similarly until Ansom decided to commit the warlords he was sending stacks of 8 against the Dwagons in waves. Again this doesn't make sense if larger groups are substantially more effective. I think attack strength is ENTIRELY determined by your best 8 units and that extra units help only on absorbing damage.

Jillian appearently expected to be able to get away with ditching two warlords, if adding two more warlords would make her stack much stronger this wouldn't be true, but if a stack of 9 strong units doesn't NEED 2 more units because it's already about as strong as it gets then this is easy to get away with.

And if 19 nearly dead dwagons + 3 warlords isn't much stronger than 5 nearly dead dwagons + 3 warlords then that Jillian can probably take the stack is exactly what you'd expect, and if this ISN'T true then almost NOTHING that we have seen about tactics makes any sense. They're FAR too willing to split up into groups of 6-8 for it to be true that a group of 22 is all that much stronger in actual combat.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by Doug Lampert

Jillian appearently expected to be able to get away with ditching two warlords, if adding two more warlords would make her stack much stronger this wouldn't be true, but if a stack of 9 strong units doesn't NEED 2 more units because it's already about as strong as it gets then this is easy to get away with.

This is the one point of your analysis I disagree with. Jillian didn't plan to get into combat with the wounded dwagons; she intended to simply head back to Ansom and help him get back to the column. She had to ditch Webinar and Dora because she assumed (probably correctly) that they wouldn't go along with this plan no matter how insistently she pulled rank on them.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by factotum

"Won't fight for someone she hates--won't hurt someone she loves" is only woolly because tabletop strategy games don't usually have concepts of love and hate. Erfworld does because it would be a fairly sterile, boring sort of world if emotion didn't play its part.

It could easily be handled mechanically, though. On Jillian's stat sheet for this scenerio it could read:

"Divided Love: Jillian is secretly in love with Prince Ansom, and gets +6 resistance against any enchantment spell that would cause her to directly change sides against him. Conversely, she is in love with Wanda, and any mental enchantment spells Wanda casts on her (excluding the above) get a +6 bonus."

Also... the fact that Parson's not attacking is dangerous in another way. Don't you think the Archons will find it a little suspicious? The only reason Parson wouldn't attack is if he had reason to believe that Jillian wasn't going to attack, either.

I still think Jillian and Wanda are not lovers. It would be too simple, and as Wanda said it is complex.

That's assuming that "complex" was meant literally, rather than as a circumlocution for "I don't want to discuss it".

That said, I agree that there's a good chance that something less obvious is behind this part of the story. For instance, it's possible that Jillian, like Wanda, was of the now-lost Croatan tribe and that they have some pre-war personal history.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Parson looks like he discovered it's real people he is croaking with his actions and plans. Maybe he starts the "moral issues" Stanley wanted to avoid in the first place.

It's his real life at risk, too. Protecting one's life is a pretty strong instinct. Given the choice, I'd expect him to want to live, especially since he's on defense. Going on offense seems to be a more morally troublesome issue.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by teratorn

I still think Jillian and Wanda are not lovers. It would be too simple, and as Wanda said it is complex.

How would you categorize the loving cuddle Jillian shares with Wanda on the flight on the dragon (which seems to exude more than sisterly love)? Or the (implied) non-chaste kiss they have when they land? And Wanda's insistance that Jillian call her mistress?

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by Jacen

I think they won't. They are mercenaries. Why to get killed. They would miss some bonuses etc because she won't attack and risk dying.

EDIT and if you count it is only eight of them. So missing leadership bonus and 1/8th of they headcount will change odds. And her mount won't attack either even everyone else will. that makes 1/4th of head count.

What... in one picture there is 9 and in previous comic there were 8. +1 under the text box. OK that makes 2/9th of them not attacking if everyone ele does.

on a tabletop game, it'd be probrably like certian units will like some other units and hate others, and for those particular units it'd be 100% or 0% on the chance, then depending on the scenario you would have to roll a percentile dice to determine what happens.

since everything is turn based though, and the dragons have huge attacking power, by round two of combat there should be 11 dragons and at most 3 archons left.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by Ink

He can't withdraw now. It's still on Ansom's turn.

I wonder if Jillian might do something extreme, like turn around and attack the Archons. She has no love for them. Perhaps she tries to explain and rationalise her way out of things, they accuse her further of being under the enemy's influence and a traitor, they move to attack the dwagons, and she flies into a barbarian rage and attacks them. She goes back to Ansom and reports: didn't find dwagons.

I doubt that Jillian could take out the Archons, unless they were somehow constrained by the terms of their agreement not to defend themselves or flee, which is not likely for mercenary forces.

However, Jillian might find a way to perform an action that really would break the alliance agreement, forcing the Archons to abandon Jetstone. Jillian could then avoid the dragons on the grounds that her forces were inadequate, and rescue Ansom as she planned.

Another possibility: Jillian has made a name for herself by being easily captured. If she attacked the dwagons and got herself knocked out quickly, the remainder of her force might have to retreat. This would satisfy the spirit if not perhaps the letter of the spell's conditions, and give Wanda another opportunity to fine tune the spell, among other things.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by glenndo

You're assuming its pass fail. Its 61% for completely wiping them out. Probably a 20% chance of major damage but some survivors, 9 percent chance of it going unfavorably for Jillian. If I remember correctly she can withdraw, so she could do some damage and take off before her side takes casualties.

If she croaks all the dwagons but she dies that must be considered a loss for her. Parson might see that as a temprary setback as he mobilizes the other warlords and remaining dwagons in Jillian-free skies. There is also a 39% possibility that at least one uncroaked warlord will survive, without Jillian and the gwiffons to hinder them next turn. That would be an immediate loss for the entire alliance.

61% is a suicide mission with poor chances of success for the risk involved. You don't fight a war by pinning everything on one 61% battle. You pick your battles so that your veterans survive and that in the rare event they fail it is not a catastrophe... and you have someone standing by to mop up the wounded預nd leveled容nemies before they heal.

If you have equal numbers in your entire army then over 75% might be a valid threshold for attacking. If Ansom has overwhelming numbers in the air (perhaps not) then he might even get away with 61% if not for the fact that dwagons have higher mobility and can therefor more easily extract their wounded, but even so every 61% attack will croak at least a third of the attacking force and it is only because you have another 61% stack that you can send in right behind it to finish off the survivors that the battle will be successful. There is no second stack here.

Illimir orc monk avatar by yours, truly. He seems to be looking for his cigarettes.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Aw man, I waited for so long and the tension is still there. T_T

But I would REALLY like to know why Parson wasn't able to think of a plan that included Ansoms air units. I thought he was a genius who can calculate very far ahead and now it seems that he's very poor at defense planning.

Furthermore I'd like to know:
Why is Parson trying to do something when they aren't able to act during their opponents turn? Why is he arguing with Wanda about HER backup plan when HE doesn't actually have one?

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by Squall83

But I would REALLY like to know why Parson wasn't able to think of a plan that included Ansoms air units. I thought he was a genius who can calculate very far ahead and now it seems that he's very poor at defense planning.

He got greedy. Once he saw the chance to lure Ansom's forest-capable units (and perhaps Ansom himself) into a trap, he took a gamble that hiding the wounded units and setting up the fake defensive ring as a decoy would work.

Why is Parson trying to do something when they aren't able to act during their opponents turn? Why is he arguing with Wanda about HER backup plan when HE doesn't actually have one?

Parson can choose whether or not his warlord-led dwagon stacks engage the enemy, as long as the enemy doesn't force the issue. He can't do much of anything else at this point.

He's decided to hope that Wanda knows what she's talking about, but it pressing her for as much information as possible, if only to reassure himself on that point.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by Squall83

Aw man, I waited for so long and the tension is still there. T_T

But I would REALLY like to know why Parson wasn't able to think of a plan that included Ansoms air units. I thought he was a genius who can calculate very far ahead and now it seems that he's very poor at defense planning.

Furthermore I'd like to know:
Why is Parson trying to do something when they aren't able to act during their opponents turn? Why is he arguing with Wanda about HER backup plan when HE doesn't actually have one?

Parson is whining. He mentioned previously that this outcome was possible and so obviously considered it. He has played too many games not to know that if there is a move the enemy can make that will hurt him then he had better expect them to make it.

worst likely case: the three warlords are dusted and all the wounded dwagons are killed, then wounded Jillian and her remaining force joins Ansom. They would have to remain there since Jillian's group would prolly be too wounded to punch through the strong hex. Parson's response would be to pile all the healthy dwagons in on the center and wipe Ansom, Vinny, and Jillian's wounded party. With them out of the way he can reorganize the remaining dwagons with his remaining warlords and finish taking out the siege as they approach Gobwin Knob. In all likelihood the alliance would collapse.

Note that as the siege get closer to Gobwin Knob it will be easier for the dwagons to strike and return home in one turn.

Illimir orc monk avatar by yours, truly. He seems to be looking for his cigarettes.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

But even though he loves to gamble I didn't expect him to leave his units unprotected. Perhaps it would have been wiser to move the wounded dwagons much further away (and not inflicting as much damage on the enemy siege). Or he should have kept about half a dozen dwagons 100% healthy.

Gambling is nice but doing it with the last hope is imho exagerating. I'd be a little more careful with them. As you (Vreejack) mentioned correctly, he can inflict more damage as the siege comes closer to Gobwin Knob anyway, so why gamble unnecessarily?

Btw: Are there only B-dwagons on the lake or why are there no yellow and blue ones?

Parson can choose whether or not his warlord-led dwagon stacks engage the enemy, as long as the enemy doesn't force the issue. He can't do much of anything else at this point.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

I still think Jillian and Wanda are not lovers. It would be too simple, and as Wanda said it is complex.

Hmmm... How to say this without sounding too sarcastic, or experienced...

What comic are you reading? </sarcasm>

A BDSM relationship IS a complex relationship, and explaining the whats and wherefors to those who don't... indulge... in that type of relationship can get very complicated.

Wanda is the Dominant, and Jillian is the submissive of their relationship. Jillian does love Wanda, and wants/needs the type of relationship the two share to feel complete. The "intensity" of the affair, the subtrefuge needed to bring the two lovers together, and the passion Jillian has for Wanda is what Jillian needs to achieve... Treasure Type "O"

Stop by an "Adult Novelties" store sometime. BDSM is neither the largest nor the smallest section of the store, but it does take up a significant amount of floorspace. And don't assume that "People don't do that kind of thing here" for wherever it is that you live. I'm living deep in the Bible Belt (for a school/job), and while taking my evening walk, I noticed a house that had been condemned. I decided to take a look at the property, since it was for sale, and happened to glance through the front window.

Let's just say, "YIKES!" and let it go at that.

66+ Churches, no book stores, no game stores, no mall. Welcome to SouthEast Oklahoma.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by Vreejack

worst likely case: the three warlords are dusted and all the wounded dwagons are killed, then wounded Jillian and her remaining force joins Ansom. They would have to remain there since Jillian's group would prolly be too wounded to punch through the strong hex. Parson's response would be to pile all the healthy dwagons in on the center and wipe Ansom, Vinny, and Jillian's wounded party. With them out of the way he can reorganize the remaining dwagons with his remaining warlords and finish taking out the siege as they approach Gobwin Knob.

Unless there's at least one dwagon conveniently left behind at GK, he has no way to get his remaining warlords to the scene. The dwagons can't make the round trip in one turn (if they could, he could have gotten the wounded ones home, or at least much further from the column so they risk of them being found would drop from "slight" to "infinitesimal"). After the next turn, Ansom will have had time to reestablish air cover over the column.

Note that as the siege get closer to Gobwin Knob it will be easier for the dwagons to strike and return home in one turn.

Again, by then the column's air cover will be restored (admittedly they won't have Jillian in that scenario, but even so they won't be nearly as vulnerable as they were when Parson initially hit them).

Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc

Hmmm... How to say this without sounding too sarcastic, or experienced...

The hints we've seen certainly fit with them being a domme/sub couple, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's necessarily the case. (At least, not necessarily in the sexual sense. It does look pretty definitive in the emotional and psychological sense.)

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

by then the column's air cover will be restored (admittedly they won't have Jillian in that scenario, but even so they won't be nearly as vulnerable as they were when Parson initially hit them).

But with Jillian gone they would have to keep all their siege together in one place covered my massed air power, otherwise Parson could take them out piecemeal. Parson would not be in a hurry here; the siege is coming to him. He could recall the surviving dwagons and start over, waiting for Ansom to screw up. The moment the siege engines split up Parson can start to smash them, and if they stay together all the way to the walls of GK then he use his own siege to take them out, or even launch a suicide attack of his own with ground forces to target them; it would be worth it. edit: Remember that Ansom said it would take days to encircle GK. During that time the siege would be especially vulnerable.

The dwagons are truly an unbalanced force. Their speed and strength make them unbeatable against even a vastly larger force that does not have the means to blunt their power if they have one weak point葉he siege engines葉hat Parson can exploit. With Jillian and the gwiffons gone Ansom & co. will be helpless. Ansom knew this even before Parson started teaching him how to play else he would not have requested her help in the first place.

Last edited by Vreejack; 2007-08-16 at 12:54 PM.

Illimir orc monk avatar by yours, truly. He seems to be looking for his cigarettes.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by Vreejack

But with Jillian gone they would have to keep all their siege together in one place covered my massed air power, otherwise Parson could take them out piecemeal.

Can he, though? Parson's selective-engagement trick only works against non-flying units. If the column has air cover, the dwagons have to keep fighting until one side or the other is croaked or captured, warlords or no warlords. Thus, each attack is likely to lose some dwagons... and if the last dwagon falls before the last siege tower does, GK is well and truly booped.

Parson would not be in a hurry here; the siege is coming to him. He could recall the surviving dwagons and start over, waiting for Ansom to screw up. The moment the siege engines split up Parson can start to smash them, and if they stay together all the way to the walls of GK then he use his own siege to take them out, or even launch a suicide attack of his own with ground forces to target them; it would be worth it. edit: Remember that Ansom said it would take days to encircle GK. During that time the siege would be especially vulnerable.

Er, no, Ansom said it would take "a full turn" to surround GK. From the time the siege units fan out until they're deployed and banging on the walls is all solid Ansom-turn time.

The dwagons are truly an unbalanced force. Their speed and strength make them unbeatable against even a vastly larger force that does not have the means to blunt their power if they have one weak point葉he siege engines葉hat Parson can exploit. With Jillian and the gwiffons gone Ansom & co. will be helpless. Ansom knew this even before Parson started teaching him how to play else he would not have requested her help in the first place.

True dat. Ansom made a mistake stripping his column of air cover (between not knowing that Stanley's ominscient-eye intel would let him know, and not believing that Stanley has the wits to properly exploit the opportunity).

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

I have been advocating the idea that Jillian and Wanda are somehow related by their prewar existences ever since strip 30. I stopped since I saw the support for "sexual" colored interpretation was too important.

All the arguments towards some sexual interaction between them are just suggested and never openly presented - the Dragon ride scene for instance can also be interpreted as a farewell hug between sisters or childhood friends (you don't actually see the kiss there). There is the spell on Jillian, but she could actually be already aware of it (some sort of protection thing - or thought reading barrier).

The whole torture scene is also easy to interpret when you realise that there were people listening.

My interpretation - Wanda and Jillian are some sort of allies with a plan of their own concerning the outcome of the war. Speculation ? Maybe. But the whole BDSM/sexual hypothesis is a bit too visible to be the truth.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Responding to you as well as other posters: well, yes. First of all, as someone else pointed out, they can't be sisters, as no one has parents in Erfworld.

And the cuddle on the dragon followed by the kiss behind it indicates a level of intimacy that goes beyond friendship or sister-like affection.

The extent of the relationship is hard to determine--i.e., is it just some level of physical intimacy, or are they in love?

In a BDSM girl/girl relationship.

I don't know if I'd go so far to assume they're actually in a true BDSM relationship.

If Jillian were masochistic or submissive, she'd be enjoying the pain. She'd beg for it, even. She doesn't appear to do either. In fact, she tries to talk Wanda out of the interrogation.

Wanda may well have a sadistic side to her, but she also doesn't seem to derive sexual pleasure from torturing Jillian. In the torture scene, she's all business (sexy outfit or no). She has a job to do and she gets to doing it.

Furthermore, if they were in a true dom/sub sort of relationship, they would unlikely to be the types to have a good cuddle later on. I could be wrong, but I think those types generally don't get into the softer forms of affection.

I think the torture scene complicates how to interpret their relationship--and is intended to.

I think Wanda tortured Jillian because Stanley asked her to, because it's her job to get information from the prisoner, and in the end, she's a loyal protector of Gobwin Knob and will do what needs to be done to serve her side. I don't think Wanda took any pleasure out of beating Jillian any more than she did out of boinking Stanley to distract him. (Incidentally, I find it very fascinating to find that many readers immediately read "sex" into the torture scene, but are equally convinced that the seduction of Stanley meant nothing in Wanda's mind.) In both events, that was something she simply felt she needed to do for Gobwin Knob's survival. She's a cold woman, who can just shut her emotions off like that, in both cases.

What indicates Wanda and Jillian's relationship is everything that happens after the torture scene--the casual friendly talk, the giving over of food rations, the affection expressed when delivering Jillian to her "escape route." And none of those things are very dom/sub-ish at all.

They're two women who care for each other in a middle of a war, and war is enough to make it seem like a quite tortured relationship.

And now comments to just Surfing Half-Orc

And since Jillian is the submissive, she is (slightly) more likely to be bi rather than full-on lesbian. Thus her love/hate relationship with Ansom.

Jillian is likely to be bi because she clearly has feelings for Wanda as well as Ansom. Being attracted to a girl and a guy generally indicates bisexuality.

Bisexuality has absolutely nothing to do with submissiveness. Submissiveness is a trait found among a lot of gays and straights, and dominance is a trait found among many bisexuals... and of course, most folks, regardless of orientation, don't have strong leanings towards either.

Wanda, OTOH, plays only for the girl's softball league. Except when she needs something from Stanley.

This statement is also flawed--there's no indication of what Wanda's sexuality is, beyond that she has at least some fondness for Jillian. She also does seduce Stanley, and I doubt she's attracted to him, but she appears to know what she's doing when she seduces him, indicating sexual experience with men. This itself doesn't mean anything except that she's good at using other people's lust and love to manipulate people... and it's possible that that is all is in Wanda's head. She may not be particularly "any"-sexual at all. Otherwise, I'd say she's also bisexual, but even that's a guess. There's just no evidence one way or another.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

They're not sisters, they are lovers. In a BDSM girl/girl relationship.

And since Jillian is the submissive, she is (slightly) more likely to be bi rather than full-on lesbian. Thus her love/hate relationship with Ansom.

Wanda, OTOH, plays only for the girl's softball league. Except when she needs something from Stanley.

I agree that they are not sisters but the rest of your logic is bunk. Being sub or dom does not make you any more likely to want to or not want to sleep (or play) with any other particular gender. I don't know where you got that idea, but as a lesbian who's been in the scene for over 10 years I'm here to tell you you're dead wrong.

Also, at the bottom of this page (sorry i don't know how to do the code) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html we see Jillian walking away from an opportunity to make it with ansom. Wanda, OTOH, we all unfortunately assume has proved herself willing to get down with the tool. whatever her reasons for doing so here, if yr going to make claims on charecter's sexual orientation, then the evidence shows you wrong.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

Originally Posted by DeathQuaker

Responding to you as well as other posters:
Furthermore, if they were in a true dom/sub sort of relationship, they would unlikely to be the types to have a good cuddle later on. I could be wrong, but I think those types generally don't get into the softer forms of affection.

No, actually we do thoroughly enjoy a good cuddle afterwards. Its very important to many B/DS/M'ers to have that "softer form of affection" after a good session.

Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66

is it just me, or is the artwork this week quite a bit below the usual standard of quality?

It could be drawn in stick figures and I'd be happy. I love the art, but I've been in story withdrawal.

Originally Posted by sihnfahl

How would you categorize the loving cuddle Jillian shares with Wanda on the flight on the dragon (which seems to exude more than sisterly love)? Or the (implied) non-chaste kiss they have when they land? And Wanda's insistance that Jillian call her mistress?

Your dirty, dirty mind.

Originally Posted by Surfing HalfOrc

What comic are you reading?

The issue isn't reading Jillian (and she cares for both Ansom and Wanda), it's reading Wanda. Which is rather ... difficult.

Originally Posted by jja

Another possibility: Jillian has made a name for herself by being easily captured. If she attacked the dwagons and got herself knocked out quickly

"She will not" is pretty unambiguous. Now we just have to see if it's true.

Originally Posted by Vreejack

61% is a suicide mission with poor chances of success for the risk involved. You don't fight a war by pinning everything on one 61% battle.

They can always withdraw the remaining forces before the battle completes. 61% is just the chance of Stanley's troops getting completely wiped out. For all we know, there could be a 99% chance of the three warlords getting recroaked while still allowing the archons and Jillian to retreat to Ansom's stack. Or ... not. Also, neither Jillian nor Ansom seem to be the cautious type.

I'm not saying she will attack. I'm just saying that it's not a purely 61% chance battle. (I will say that they do not know the chance of their success or defeat or death in battle, though. Parson has that advantage.)

Originally Posted by SteveMB

Unless there's at least one dwagon conveniently left behind at GK, he has no way to get his remaining warlords to the scene.

Given that Stanley has "leave with the Arkenhammer" as a viable option, it would not surprise me if there was at least one. Stanley is someone who would seem to like a security blanket.