My goal is to inform potential law school students and applicants of the ugly realities of attending law school. DO NOT ATTEND UNLESS: (1) YOU GET INTO A TOP 8 LAW SCHOOL ON SCHOLARSHIP; (2) YOU GET A FULL-TUITION SCHOLARSHIP TO ATTEND; (3) YOU HAVE EMPLOYMENT AS AN ATTORNEY SECURED THROUGH A RELATIVE OR CLOSE FRIEND; OR (4) YOU ARE FULLY AWARE BEFOREHAND THAT YOUR HUGE INVESTMENT IN TIME, ENERGY, AND MONEY DOES NOT, IN ANY WAY, GUARANTEE A JOB AS AN ATTORNEY OR IN THE LEGAL INDUSTRY.

Saturday, October 23, 2010

Fourth Tier Bowel Movement: Valparaiso University School of Law

Tuition: A full-time student at this prestigious, astounding law school will be charged $36,800 in tuition and fees for the 2010-2011 school year. Part-time students will only be charged $1410 per credit hour, for this same academic year.

Estimated Total Cost of Attendance: The sewer of law estimates that books/supplies, room, board, transportation, loan fees and personal expenses will account for an additional $12,760 for 2010-2011. This would bring the total COA – for a full-time student – to $49,560. Well, at least it is not quite $50K a year, right?!?!

Employment and Starting Salary Prospects: The commode’s Career Planning Center does not furnish employment and starting salary figures for recent graduates. But who needs that info, anyway? The CPC does something more “meaningful and concrete.” They provide a brief list of featured alumni for each semester.

For Fall 2009 – apparently, the sewer of law has not updated a list for Spring or Fall 2010 – the school profiles Lisa A. Van Fleet, a 1985 Valpo JD. She is now an HR specialist who occasionally teaches employee benefits courses. The next person profiled is also a member of the Class of 1985. Her name is Kim E. Ferraro, and as an environmental activist, she is a real crusader for “social justice.” And lastly, the school features a Valpo Law grad from this century, with J. Sebastian Smelko, who graduated in 2007. (One wonders what his first name is, given that he chooses to go by his middle name of Sebastian.) His career track suggests that he is a political hack/junkie. Yes, this is apparently the best Valparaiso University Sewer of Law can do, people.

Ranking: The school is expensive, and it is located about an hour away from Chicago – itself home to six ABA-accredited law schools. Surely, the school’s reputation will allow its graduates to compete in the Chicago legal market, right?! Well, some publication calling itself US News & World Report lists this school as a fourth tier piece of trash.

Average Student Indebtedness:USN&WR shows that the average indebtedness of Class of 2009 Valpo Law grads who incurred law school debt stood at $107,313. Furthermore, this magazine reports that fully 89 percent of this toilet’s 2009 graduating class incurred law school debt.

Look, you can join the Law School Running and Fitness Club, or the Multicultural Law Students Association!! Put these activities on your resume; but I must warn you, that if you do so, you will be inundated with emails and constant phone calls from legal employers wanting to throw large sums of money at you. Yeah, and Salma Hayek just rolled over and asked me to come back to bed.

Recently, industry shill Heather Diersen interviewed Valpo Commode dean Jay Conison about the state of the legal industry. He is also the chair of the ABA Accreditation Committee.

“When I asked Dean Conison about the allegations of misleading and fraudulent reporting of employment statistics, he believes the Questionnaire Committee is significantly concerned. During the next year, the committee is considering recommending changes in the law school reporting requirements, particularly in the type of information given with employment statistics.” [Emphasis mine]

Dean Conison, why don’t you and the “Questionnaire Committee” take your “significant concern” and pack it in your collective ass? Instead of feigning concern, you pinheads need to implement meaningful, substantive change!!

Conclusion: Valparai$o Univer$iTTTTy $chool of Law is a pathetic joke of an institution. The school charges $36,800 in tuition and fees for one year of a fourth tier “legal education.” This means that the VAST majority of its students will end up with $100K in additional student debt, while scrambling for jobs that pay $30K-$40K upon graduation.

I know that lawyers and “law professors” like to toss out that old saying, i.e. “Lawyers are terrible at math.” However, even a moron can discern that taking out $100K-$150K in additional NON-DISCHARGEABLE student loans – for a realistic chance at making $40K – is a horrible financial decision. And you do consider yourself to be smarter than a moron, don’t you, lemming?

106 comments:

I was expecting another post. I will take this up a notch from the article's author. (We'll see if the SOB deletes my comments). If you are not connected strongly, do not fucking go to law school. If you do not completely buy into the myth that law is about fairness and eqaulity, then you have no fucking business pursuing a law degree. If you are over age 30, do not consider law school. Law firms don't want you even if you are in the top ten students in your class most firms still don't want someone with work exp. They want young minds they can mold in their image. Are you black, Arabic, latino, Chinese, fat, a justice seeker, a butch lesbian? Then do not fucking go to law school. Are you poor? Are you the first person in your family to get a college diploma? Then get the idea out of your mind that you should be a lawyer. It's...not...gonna...fucking...happen. Do you not think like a 45 year old conservative white male? Then give up on your shitty dream of being a lawyer. It's for your own good. In the end, you and your little law degree are not going to change the world, fuckhead. Get that through your goddamn skull. You wanna fight for immigrants rights and for political refugees? Go to an immigration shitfirm and see what their job is like. They specialize in removing a poor fuck from his last $3000 and then getting him deported. Man, they are changin' the world, aren't they? You want to give criminal defendants a solid defense. Well let's see how you feel after you have a go at it, representing the guiltiest, stupidest fuckers on earth for little to no pay. And see how much the courts will give you so you can hire medical experts for Mr. Stupid Fucking Criminal. Do you want to help injured people get their day in court? Most of these cases are tossed out by the courts, or settled for pennies on the dollar. Grandma Moses slipped and shattered her femur? Here's $20,000, take it or leave it. I said take it or leave it. law is a shitty profession, it is even much worse than this guy describes. The fact that Ivy League trained lawyers would rather teach law should give you an idea of this.

As far as prestige goes, think about the following for a moment. Have you ever been to a 4 star restaurant? What do the bathroom stalls smell like? Shit. Ever been to a high-end hotel, such as the Waldorf? I have, and the bathroom stalls smell like corroded shit. The men to the left and right of you may be captains of industry, and their bowels smell like dogshit. The commode in the West Wing of the White House smells like shit. Get the picture?

Think of the biggest, high dollar prostitute lawyers out there. When they sit on the bowl after chowing down a $200 lunch, watch out. It will smell to high heaven. The suffocating smell of shit will burn your nose hairs. When the pope squats down (hopefully he dofs his pointy cap), it will smell like an 83 year old man's asshole. In the end, prestige amounts to shit.

I wanted to mention a topic that many unemployed law grads will inevitably face someday:

The idea of working in Sales.

You just might do it,even against your better judgement, Mr or Ms. JD or Esq., because you are desperately in need of Health Insurance.

So here is the skinny on Sales, from someone who has been there.

First of all, NO company (with few exceptions) outside of Law will want you for a non-sales job with the JD on your resume.

You can increase your chances of landing a non-legal job by leaving the 3 years and the Law Degree off the resume, but that is problematic because it is a very large omission and can be viewed as unethical by your non-legal employer.

So that will lead you back to all of those attractive sales jobs posted in the want ads, with all of the benefits. THe most important being Health Insurance, which you desperately need by now for yourself and maybe your family.

YOu'll have a great interview with the car dealership, or insurance agency or sleazy stock borkerage agency who will hire you because they figure you are educated and speak well, and have family and friends as contacts.

You will sweat out a sales job for a year or more, until you sell to your mother and aunt and uncle and sisters cousin's brother, and use up all of your charity contacts, and then you will not be a "Producer" anymore.

So by then you will be working in sales for no paycheck, having a nervous breakdown, and either will be fired or quit out of pure starvation. And damn the insurance I can handle the COBRA (which you will later discover you cannot)

I have a lot more to say about sales.

It can be a great career too, given the right circumstances. But sales is a Trade, like Law and anything else, and to survive in it might require turning yourself into a person you might not like when looking at yourself first thing in the morning, in the mirror.

Certainly not something many well-intentioned and socially minded lawyer types would be comfortable with on so many levels.

I saw Ms. Diersen's post in the above link in which she absolves the law schools of ANY responsibility for the rank deception going on in the area of bogus employment and placement statistics.

Seems it is her view, I argued there, that while she would be willing to entrust said schools with gazillions of tuition dollars, as well as the responsibility of, ostensibly, training future professionals, she would take ANYTHING these institutions said about employment with a grain of salt.

She argues in effect that while the schools can be trusted to take taxpayer money in copious amounts and with the responsibility of inculcating future "professionals" with not only substantive knowledge, but with an ethical framework, they can not be entrusted with the relatively simple task of relaying correct statistics to future matriculants. No sirree, that's all the STUDENT'S FAULT for not "researching" wnough.

I believe you Bruce. How much of that $400K was in deferred compensation or sabbatical leave? I see you graduated from Valpo in 1967 but tried too hard to wash the Valpo stain with an unimpressive LLM from Yale.

http://www.valpo.edu/law/faculty/bberner/index.php

Can you hook me up with a professor of law gig at Valpo? My JD is from a T25 school and if you add me to teach Con law or civ pro, I can lift Valpo into the third tier. I would condition accepting a teaching post at Valpo by naming me the Harlan Sanders Professor of Law.

Can there be extra scorn for the fact that Valpo is a religious school? We rip the for-profit people a lot, but personally I find them more honest than the religious schools, who go against almost every damned commandment, proverb, and parable in the religious text they claim to boost.

While I'm thinking about it, someone should start a Muslim Law School similar to how Valpo, Ave Maria, and others are Christian law schools. The ABA would surely approve it (out of fear of the antitrust monster). Then someone should leak to FoxNews that a Muslim law school is subsisting because the dirty rotten government is backing student loans so terrorists can go to a Muslim law school and learn how to undermine western democratic society with International Shoe and the mailbox rule.

Valpo is a certifiable shithole. Looks like they received their accreditation from a box of Cracker Jacks. So what if some random guy is claiming to have made more than $400,000 last year as a Valpo grad. How many recent JDs are making less than $40K?

J-Dogged: The religious schools that rip people off belong right beside the schools with a "commitment to the public interest" that would rather hold black tie galas for deans and prestigious alumni than give students a break on tuition that would allow them to serve more underprivileged clients.

1)I think a serious discussion of what it is like to work in sales is in order.

Many unemployed law grads and lawyers might have to work in sales just for the sake of the Health Insurance.

2) How dropping the JD, and three years from the resume might be problematic when seekig a non-legal job. A non-legal employer might view it as a very large omission amounting to dishonest and/or unethical behavior by the job applicant.

1) Sales is a high pressured job. In this economy, most products that salespeople offer are considered a luxury. Try life insurance for example. A JD working for Metlife peddling life insurance policies decides to contact his fellow TTT JD grads that are doing contract/temp work. Chances are, these folks are single (A JD with huge student debtload will have a hard time marrying up) and no kids (diapers are expensive and can equal a student loan payment). What is the incentive of these folks in buying life insurance when they have no suriving spouse or heirs? They are trying to scrape enough for rent, food and the Sallie Mae payment. So scratch the life insurance sales job. This is just an example.

Reminds me of certain judges, like Damon Keith, for example, (Howard JD, Wayne State, LLM). Guy gets on the federal bench, BUT WHEN IT COMES TIME TO HIRE A CLERK, he goes for a Harvard grad like Jocelyn Benson, now running for SoS in Michigan. (A smart lady, nothing against her).

The point being the schools and organizations throw galas and receptions and such for HIS favored causes at places like Wayne State, but when it comes time to pick a law clerk, whoaaaaa, no way, not even a Michigan grad will do, nosirree, much less a Wayne grad. It's Harvard all the way.

Translation: I got a break in my career, and please contribute to my causes, but screw you if you need a job and went to my own alma mater.Nice, eh?

I don't condemn Keith. Becoming a Federal Judge (especially at the District and to a lesser degree Circuit Court of Appeals) is based on political connections, not educational pedigree. SCOTUS is different in that you need connections, the right ideology AND educational pedigree to become qualified.

Now the criteria for becoming a Federal law clerk is mostly based on educational pedigree; thus, Keith is only following the norm. If he hired a Wayne State JD as a law clerk, I am sure his judgment would come into question and he would be the black gowned clown of his court.

Look, 273 recently admitted attorneys took the oath on October 13, 2010, in the state of Utah. Yes, because the population has exploded in the last year, right?!?! And don't forget the huge number of Utah lawyers who retired in the last twelve months. Also, keep in mind that there are only two law schools in the state - and each keeps it class sizes relatively small.

I pointed out recently in another entry the fact that the Salt Lake Yellow Pages feature 71 pages of attorney ads. This does not even include the full front and back cover lawyer ads. Out of the 1235 page book, 71 pages are devoted to attorneys. The metro area has a population of about 1.1 million. The state has an estimated population of 2.8 million, and 2.3 million of those people live along the Wasatch Front.

How the hell are these recently admitted lawyers supposed to compete against established, experienced lawyers and law firms - when they are armed with $120K in student loans and no name recognition?!

Recently, I was talking to a colleague who happens to have a law degree from a school in Oregon. He told me, “I know for a fact that half of the 2010 graduating law class from both the University of Utah and BYU do not have jobs.”

What is troubling about this is that both schools are ranked as the 42nd best law school in the nation, by US News & World Report. In particular, local firms and businesses like to hire BYU Law grads. That half of these students are supposedly scrambling for work is VERY telling.

A post you guys might find interesting about NOT GOING INTO SCIENCE. This physics professor advises science underdgrads to GO INTO LAW:http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html Don't Become a Scientist! Jonathan I. Katz Professor of Physics Washington University, St. Louis, Mo. [my last name]@wuphys.wustl.edu Are you thinking of becoming a scientist? Do you want to uncover the mysteries of nature, perform experiments or carry out calculations to learn how the world works? Forget it! Science is fun and exciting. The thrill of discovery is unique. If you are smart, ambitious and hard working you should major in science as an undergraduate. But that is as far as you should take it. After graduation, you will have to deal with the real world. That means that you should not even consider going to graduate school in science. Do something else instead: medical school, LAW SCHOOL, computers or engineering, or something else which appeals to you. Why am I (a tenured professor of physics) trying to discourage you from following a career path which was successful for me? Because times have changed (I received my Ph.D. in 1973, and tenure in 1976). American science no longer offers a reasonable career path. If you go to graduate school in science it is in the expectation of spending your working life doing scientific research, using your ingenuity and curiosity to solve important and interesting problems. You will almost certainly be disappointed, probably when it is too late to choose another career. American universities train roughly twice as many Ph.D.s as there are jobs for them.... .... In contrast, a doctor typically enters private practice at 29, A LAWYER AT 25 AND MAKES PARTNER AT 31, and a computer scientist with a Ph.D. has a very good job at 27 (computer science and engineering are the few fields in which industrial demand makes it sensible to get a Ph.D.). Anyone with the intelligence, ambition and willingness to work hard to succeed in science can also succeed in any of these other professions....

Of course, you don't go into science to get rich. So you choose not to go to medical or law school, even though a doctor or LAWYER typically earns two to three times as much as a scientist (one lucky enough to have a good senior-level job). I made that choice too. I became a scientist in order to have the freedom to work on problems which interest me. But you probably won't get that freedom. As a postdoc you will work on someone else's ideas, and may be treated as a technician rather than as an independent collaborator. Eventually, you will probably be squeezed out of science entirely. You can get a fine job as a computer programmer, but why not do this at 22, rather than putting up with a decade of misery in the scientific job market first? The longer you spend in science the harder you will find it to leave, and the less attractive you will be to prospective employers in other fields. Perhaps you are so talented that you can beat the postdoc trap; some university (there are hardly any industrial jobs in the physical sciences) will be so impressed with you that you will be hired into a tenure track position two years out of graduate school. Maybe. But the general cheapening of scientific labor means that even the most talented stay on the postdoctoral treadmill for a very long time; consider the job candidates described above. And many who appear to be very talented, with grades and recommendations to match, later find that the competition of research is more difficult, or at least different, and that they must struggle with the rest.

When USN&WR lists the "average indebtedness" of the grads of a law school, what does it take into accout? I went to a TTTT shitpile on a full ride and still graduated with $80k in total educational debt. Of course, this figure includes roughly $30k worth of undergrad debt. Something tells me that USN&WR only reports the debt incurred while at law school. Afterall, they have an interest in ensuring that law school is still looked at as a wise decision / great investment. Imagine... most of these kids have an undergrad burden as well.

1) People that are pre-disposed to going to law school generally do not make good salespersons. I have seen great salespeople in action and they could sell ice to an eskimo. JD candidates/holders generally lack the social skills to go out and generate business. I have had JD people try to sell me stocks. They are generally awkward and usually hang up or go away when I ask them why should I entrust my financial future to someone that already failed in pursuing a career in their designated course of study (i.e., the law). The exceptions to this generally become rainmaking partners or successful solos.

2) Great grades (with journal experience) at a top national or regional law school get you in the door. Making partner (I am talking equity, not contract, non-equity or service partner bullshit designation) in Biglaw has little to do with legal acumen or skill. I once knew a Tulane grad (hard to believe but Tulane at one point was a T25) that was a lazy POS but had a stellar personality and made everyone around him feel at ease. He became partner before his legal crackerjack peers that were on law review at HLS and CLS, had SCOTUS clerkships, etc. His more academic partners hated him but loved him when he brought in multi-million dollar matters and clients

3) The professor article about pursuing law over science is terribly flawed. No one becomes partner at BigLaw at 31 anymore. It hasn't happened since the 80s. I recall in the early 2000s, the legal periodicals made a big deal about a 32 year old becoming a partner at SullCrom. Nowadays becoming a partner at Biglaw is generally illusory. It really busts my gut to hear kids say "I will go to law school, get a job at Biglaw making $160K and become partner within 8 years. Yeah, and if you knock your front grill out and place the teeth under your pillow, the toothfairy will leave a C note.

4)It is "possible" to make excellent money coming from a TTT/TTTT. Generally it is because of the person's unique skills (not academic pedigree) that this happens. Not all people that went to TTT/TTTT schools are morons, although a considerable percentage of them clearly are. These are the exceptional examples that TTT/TTTT administrators cream about when they "sell" their school to prospective suckers, I mean, students.

5) If you want to go to law school badly, take a year off after college graduation and do the following. Get a job, any job, working or a law firm, big or small. Observe the attorneys (especially their stress levels, abhorent behavior and sloppy demeanor). This is what you aspire to become. Then, take 25% of your take home pay and donate it to charity. This will give you an idea of what it is like to make ends meet while servicing a non-dischargeable student loan. Lastly just do the math. This is a simple equation, not calculus. If you cannot earn your first year out what you have borrowed, you have a 33% chance of default within your first year of repayment status. If you are unemployed or underemployed and seek forebearance of your loans, that has the equivalent effect of having stuck around law school for an LLM in that you will be capitilizing the loan with significant interest. Just go to a website that has a simple interest calculator and punch in the numbers. If you feel you will be partner at Biglaw by 31, then I am sure you are smart enough to calculate what a losing proposition getting a JD is on loans.

6) Lastly, I had never heard of "Valpo" before this weekend. Nando has a knack for pulling these schools out of obscurity. Having said that, Valpo just sounds like a terrible place to spend 3 precious years while blowing away a ton of money in loans that you will have to repay back over 20-30 years. If I am ever in the midwest and get a traffic ticket, I think I would rather go pro se than take a chance on a Valpo educated attorney. That is all.

I left my Ph.D. program in the hard sciences to attend law school. While itis true that there is a surplus of Ph.D.s, there are jobs to be had. Like anything, it depends on the focus of your study and whether you did your research with a big name professor. Many of my former classmates in my doctoralprogram are VPs and high-level scientists. I'm sure they are making $100K plus at this point. The big problem that I see with American Ph.D. programs is that they consistently and chronically admit students from overseas, which has the impact of making things even more competitive. Now I'm a contraact attorney eking out a living trying to pay off my six figure debt. P.S. Valparaiso sucks.

I think 5:51 has done more to sum up the logistics of the profession in one comment than anyone else on this entry. Little ones, there are too many fucking lawyers out there. Do...you...understand...that?

Seriously, most peolpe go into ls because they are risk-averse and not great salespeople. In order to make partner at a major firm, you need the gregarious personality and cultural ease of a patrician politician. If you want to make serious cash as a solo or shitlaw lawyer, you need mad sales skills. You need to advertise yourself like a BK value menu. And you need to deliver. It might be kind of me if I add that facts win more cases than lawyers.

How many of you peons think a Valporaiso law degree will elevate you into another income bracket?

LooK A lot of you are going to be unemployed and without Health Insurance. I was.

You will try and try to land a legal or a non-legal job with no luck.

Yet you will continue checking the want ads, and the most conspicuous want ads, the ones that seem to offer Health Insurance among other contingent benefits will be for Sales Jobs. Many, many types of sales jobs. Some with a base pay, a base pay with a "draw", some for straight commission, some as an employee, some as an "independent contractor" (like sellng floor coverings for that Co with the Commercials and familiar jingle always on TV(800-588-2300 Empire)

Your wife or family will be upset with you sitting around. You might just take that job in sales out of desperation.

I worked for an Independent Insurance Agency that employed around 25 people. The Health Plan was stellar, but the pay was low. A commission on the sale of a Homeowners or an Auto Insurance policy was about 18 bucks, and one had to work at least 4 hours completing the sale.

The entire agency except for the top 3 or 4 people was "threadbare" for lack of a better description. Mostly clerical people making 30 grand a year or less, and 5 or 6 salespeople with a spouse that worked as well.Worn out shoes, dented cars in the parking lot with balding tires, etc.

Once in sales, you might have a Co. that will bombard you with courses and literature dealing with how to be a successful salesperson.

There are countless such books and courses. If you haven't read Dale Carnegie you should. (How to make friends and influence people)I'm not saying Dale Carnegie was 100% correct, but it is an interesting and easy read.

Also a lot of Tony Robbins type of material--self-motivational type of stuff.

But my point is that you will have come far from law school, and I don;t care what anyone says, it is far better to have a steady paycheck, or your own business, than to be a salesman for a Company.

I sell painting services, but I think it is a ridiculously easy sell. Panting is always in demand. Legal services, it seems, are harder to sell because there are too many lawyers at this point in time.

Anyway, some sales courses are very interesting actually.

Here is a link to one schoolof thought: Social Style Sales strategies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWl4-HZ0YH4

I consider myself to be an amiable. And drivers like amiables. I am not an analytical, and sometimes an Expressive. I am definitely not a driver.

The salesman has to deal with all four personality types. Size them up, and make a sale.

Offhand I would say 5:51 is an analytical/Driver.Drivers like amiables, and I would approach him as an Amiable--give him lots of praise because Drivers like that, and also give him lots of facts and figures because analyticals require that.

I would also approach the ex-scientist in that manner. Lots of data to persuade him or her to buy that car.

I remember this course being taught in a much more entertaining way than in the youtube clip I have pasted here, but it will give the basics.

Here is a concept. We are in the middle of football season. College ball does not have a playoff system. Instead, they give us all sorts of shitty bowl games. Why not create the Third Tier Reality Bowl and feature two shitty ass 4-8 teams and have them battle it out? I'm sure ESPN 12 would carry it.

I agree with 5:51 above. A prestigious degree opens the door. But its up to you from that point on. You've got to learn 1. Great sales, marketing and management skills. and 2. Be a good lawyer. (in that order). On TV shows, lawyers are charming and skilled manipulators who win over juries and clients. It never ceases to amaze me how many social morons are in this profession.

I'm the one who re-posted the scientists' email. I don't necessarily agree with him (I've never been an academic scientist and wouldn't know). I just found it interesting that he was making exactly the equal and opposite argument that Nando was about law. (pardon the physics pun).

I have a friend who graduated from Valpraison 15-20 years ago and is one of 4 equity partners at a 25 lawyer insurance defense & business litigation firm. He does very well.

@11:17 - Not really sure what argument you're referring to that I made. In any event, the bottom line is as a research scientist, you are learning highly technical, specialized skills. Add to that the ultra specialized nature of the professor that you are conducting research for and you are not a fungible commodity by any stretch of the imagination. Possibly a low paid commodity - but not a fungible one - unlike law graduates. I never knew what the word fungible meant until I went to law school. Now I'm livin' it. Like anything, it seems that the more specialized you are, the more valuable your skills become (and the more income you can potentially generate). At some point, you become so specialized that the market for your services is extremely narrow - think residential real estate closings verus some esoteric practice like admirality law. That's one of the main reasons I decided to go to law school since I felt that my skills as a scientist would have no value except to 0.00005% of the population. I think the goal is to strike a balance between the two - find a niche practice where clients are more plentiful.

US News is referring to those who took out student loans to attend law school, i.e. it apparently does not include loans for undergrad or other advanced degrees. Your situation is not unique, by the way. I attended Third Tier Drake on a full-tuition scholarship for all three years. My wife was employed full-time during my entire “legal education.” She, armed with a Master’s degree, was never able to earn more than $31K per year. I never made more than $6K in any of my three years of law school.

We were very frugal, and owned older, reliable vehicles. We took very few trips, and did not dine out very often. In sum, we kept our expenses to a minimum. We rented a two-bedroom apartment for $650 a month. I also lived only 7 miles from Drake’s TTT campus. With all of these things in place, I still took out an additional $37K in student loan debt to graduate from this commode.

You can see that USN&WR lists the average indebtedness of 2009 Third Tier Drake grads who incurred law school debt at $85,905. Furthermore, this magazine reports that fully 91 percent of this toilet’s 2009 graduating class incurred law school debt.

I knew a fair amount of students who took out $125K+ for the privilege of earning a TTT law degree – and learning from third rate “law professors.”

Regarding the scientist track, I do not see this as very lucrative either. That said, at least they are (slightly) more secure in their jobs than attorneys. However, American universities are relying too much on foreigners to fill their seats in their hard sciences departments. Also, take into account that Asian universities are producing tons of scientists, as well. Many of these jobs are can be outsourced - especially those in research scientist positions. We are all commodities, in this digital age.

I didn't say that scientist jobs were the end all be all, only that they were less fungible than attorneys, generally. There's only so many people who are well versed in the ribosomal genetics of Drosophila melanogaster (fruit fly). Then question is why would someone care, particularly over a long period of time, i.e., one's career. In the end, this is why I left science. The minutiae just didn't hold much weight for me. In 100 years someone would read my scholarly publications in some arcane medical journal. Big whoop. There would be more science jobs available like I said, if academia quit recruiting from overseas to fill its graduate school ranks and tried to accomodate U.S. citizens even though they may not have the highest GRE score relative to some student from India that eat, sleeps and shits differential calculus. The whole thing about Obama (and others) saying we need more science graduates is a bunch of crap. Seriously. There's just too many of everything these days - except medical doctors.

Look at what the Associate Dean for Admissions at Yale Law School (the BEST law school in the US) has to say:

"Look — I want all of you to apply to law school (and to Yale), but I also want you to think about what you’re getting into. These are tough times out there, and while law school might be a great place to hide out for three years, those three years will end."

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissions/default.aspx

When the BEST law school in the nation is putting out disclaimers like this, makes you really wonder what TTT grads' future would look like.

"There's just too many of everything these days - except medical doctors."

There is much truth in that. As our economy is learning, peace and medical advances have their drawbacks. Gen Xers haven't made as much as their parents (1st generation in history, btw) and Gen Yers are even more screwed.

Why? Well, this is what happens when you have massive wealth inequality, a global labor pool, and a global finance pool. Want to be a lawyer? Ha - shit jobs are going to Bangalore, high end stuff stays with the elites who want it, and the rest of the minions can fight for lower-class divorces and PI cases. Want to buy a house? Nope, sorry, Gen Y, foreign real estate investors have driven up land prices and since our big banks are in bed with them, we're not about to let asset prices fall to where you can afford them. Want to start a business with your MBA? Sorry, son, that's a rich man's game. We'd rather extend credit to the hyper-wealthy who don't need it than finance a good idea at the ground level. Want to advance in a company? Nope - no one's retiring anymore and we can't force them out thanks to federal law, so you're stuck with your entry-level position for YEARS.

We really do need a massive wave of retirement or a war or a famine or something. Honest to God, after market-rigged professions like doctors and dentists, high school teacher is looking like one of the best options for today's youth. That would have been laughable just a few years ago.

Great idea for a football game. The only problem is that it would resemble this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5fGSBsfq8

And to 2:25:

How right you are.Especially the bit about High School Teachers.I personally know of a few. A sweet, sweet job. Off for 3.5 months of the year, and easy hours.

It just somehow worked out over the last 20 years that anyone who is tenured at a HIgh School is fantastically positioned with a near or more than 100 Grand salary (In some NY Metro Area schools anyway) and a pension, and excellent benefits, health Insurance, dental, eyeglass, chiropractic care covered and mental health care visits covered as well on the health plan.

Call it an accident of history, or just the result of strong teacher union efforts.

Also people that have state and city jobs have similar packages. I don't know too much about federal jobs.

To the Scientist person--The concept of a Starving Lawyer is not an Oxymoron.

And I recently met an MD who gave up his practice and now teaches "special Ed".

Three years at this, to quote someone else, "turd factory," or three years of marriage to my last wife? I take the three years of marriage to my last wife. Although I wound up paying more than $180K (the cost to attend this landfill) through the divorce, at least I got some decent companionship and she was a trophy from top to bottom. I did get serviced from time to time which I fondly remember. But three years at this place where you get fucked over and in the end they give you a worthless receipt (JD diploma)? What is the world coming to? This is the type of school where I would disown my kids if they ever thought of attending it. Just plain awful.

3x unlucky in love but lucky enough to have avoided TTTs such as this one

Performing oral copulation on a 60 year old woman may not be so bad, especially if we are talking about a Sophia Loren doppelganger. But for argument's sake, let's say we are talking about Betty White. I would take my chances with Betty than even think of attending a school best known as "Valpo." Listerine can wash away the stench and germs of the experience. Nothing can erase away the TTT JD stain from a place such as this one, not even an LLM from Yale or Harvard.

To the poster contemplating a teaching career, I'd say even that is in jeopardy these days. I taught at some ritzy public school for all of one day as a substitute when I graduated from law school and was waiting for my bar results. I dinstinctly recall being the only male in the teachers' break room and all the bad estrogen circling around me as if I was a leper. I'll never do that again. Plus, I'm not at all confident that teachers will ever see their pensions. If they do, maybe you'll be able to buy a candy bar. Same with Social Security. BTW, I would be willing to trade in all my future social security benefits accrued to date (even though I'm 20 years from retirement) in exchange from the shackles of my student loans. If the government can't come through on it's end of the bargain (which appears to be closer to reality these days), then why should I have to perform on my student loans, which are also owned by the Fed., i.e., Direct Loan A**holes.

And look at this list of notable alumni. Wow, what a distinguished group of people!! For instance, N. Cornell Boggs III, class of 1982, JD 1985 who (allegedly) served as Chief Legal Officer and Group Vice President for Public Affairs, Coors Brewing Company. And who could forget Robert Duesenberg, class of 1951, retired Senior Vice President and General Counsel, General Dynamics and past chair of the Business Law Section of the American Bar Association?!

In the last analysis, this school truly is a filth pile. The fact that this diploma mill charges its full-time students $36,800 for a single year of tuition and fees is disgraceful!

I'm not saying I'm contemplating a teaching career. Just that I know a number of teachers-husband and wife combos, that are doing pretty well.But the guy I know that teaches does get heckled by a lot of old school marms it seems. And he is an ex-lawyer.

I am with Direct Loans now too. The way I got there was through default, and a lot of fees and interest piled on top of the loan.

I qualify for IBR (Income Based Repayments) for the next 25 years. I will be 70 years old.

People have asked (on other blogs) how they can get on an IBR program, and I think the only way is through default. Then the Federal Gov't will buy up the loan.

In my case, the loan defaulted with Sallie Mae.

Then it went back to NY State Higher Education Services, then to the collector.

I was confused because a private collection agency called GC Services made 10thousand dollars just for placing my loan with the Federal Gov't. I called and asked Direct Loans if they could mail me the application directly, so that I could avoid the 10 thoudand dollar fee. I reveiced the application in the mail, but by then I had signed up with GC Services.Part of the reason I did so was because NYHESCtold me on the phone that I had to deal with the "Vendor" or the collection agency, and that I had no choice.

GC Services handles various types of debt, not just student loans, which to me seems strange.I wonder who owns them anyway.

http://www.gcserv.com/collection-agency.html

Anyway, I recorded two fairly long conversations with GC services. I felt at the time that something wasn;t right about the whole thing and/or that I was and still am a quasi-criminal debtor to boot.

I really wish everybody could hear these recorded conversations.

The conversations are very telling, and will tell you a lot about the way the system works. The were from 1 year ago. At a critical time in the life of my loan.

I am trying to load the cassette into my computer, or digitalize it in other words. So far with no success. The blue line in port doesn't seem to pick up the sound. I downloaded audacity and lame software as well, following these instructions:

http://cassettetomp3.blogspot.com/

If I can get the tape as a sound file I am going to share it with the bloggers such as Education Matterrs and anyone else interested(blanking out my personal info of course)

Or I will post it on youtube. Each conversation is around 40 minutes each.

Northwestern University in Chicago is probably one of the best T14 schools. They now heavily emphasize work experience in their admissions. Fewer than 1-2% of all admitted students there are directly from undergraduate. Around 90% or more have at least 2 years of full time work exerpience and 98-99% have at least 1 year of work experience.

I think that Law Schools should become like MBA programs and require at least 2 years of work experience to avoid letting the liberal arts kids who fear the real world from enrolling. Law school is a serious commitment and you should only go if you are very serious about attending.

Value judgments would have to be made, though, on what said work experience must consist of.

Or will any work experience do? And, in a crappy economy like this, will the kids who have Daddy hire them for a "law-school-qualifying" type of gig necessarily have the advantage? Law school is already a prestige-obsessed experience, and this may exacerbate things by tilting it even more to the connected.

I think there is a good argument for the work-experience idea, I just don't see how it makes it through the implementation.

Work experience? Law school is a de facto undergraduate degree; not a "graduate degree". The only intellectual prerequisite is to be able to read and write in English; something that we can do as high school graduates.

This blog complains that the ABA doesn't create enough barriers to entry to the profession. What about the biggest barrier of all: a 4 year waste of time and money in getting a BA prior to law school.If [engineers/accountants/teachers] had the political power of lawyers, everyone would have to get a 4 year "broad and liberal education, necessary to prepare oneself for the rigorous study of" [engineer/accounting/education]. I never would've understood the concepts of "duty" or "consideration" as an 18 year old high school senior, but after 4 years of college history, it totally made sense to me. (sarcasm)Let's not get greedy here; the ABA does just fine creating artificial barriers to this profession.

@1:57 - "the ABA does just fine creating artificial barriers to this profession." You have to be kidding me. Maybe I am greedy as you suggest ... or maybe I just need an attorney position that I actually give a crap about. Maybe you should go work for the ABA as a lobbyist. You certainly sound like the ABA is doing wonders for your legal career.

Strong connections and great sales skills help you in this profession. Failing that, going to a school like HYS and exhibiting an ability to excel academically(plus the ability to easily associate with members of the upper class) gives you a shot at Biglaw. If you do not have any of these things going for you, you have no fucking business going to law school.

@5:26 I agree with the social skill aspect. There are a lot of dirt bag lawyers out there that lack social graces. They woudln't last long in a Biglaw environment. That's why, IMO, it's easier to move down the legal food chain, i.e., shitlaw, rather than up the legal food chain, i.e., biglaw.

@3:43I'll explain it more clearly for you.The 4 year undergraduate degree, prior to law school, serves no purpose. A high school senior could walk into law school and understand the material. This is different than a real graduate program like, for example, a PhD in physics, math, economics, finance, engineering, statistic, etc; where a high school student would not be able to walk in an even decipher the equations on the blackboard, much less participate.

If we made law an undergraduate degree, law wages would go down. If we added a requirement to recieve a 4 year liberal arts degree prior to taking an entry level class in accounting, engineering, teaching, etc, wages in those professions would go up.

@2:09:I do quite well and with reasonable balance. (I have time to screw around on the internet). I've been out 10 years and the flood of young lawyers is not a threat to me because law school teaches absolutely nothing and few will be able to figure it out on their own. In fact, law school destroys their confidence, teaches a negative defeatist attitude, and teaches them an inferiority complex based on irrelvancies. Of those who can figure it out, few will have the management, marketing and sales skills to really make it.

But everything with respect to the very broad topic of Education in the US, encompassing all disciplines and eventual professions, has gone so far afield by now.

So far from as recent as 20 years ago, when the basic assumption about education (that no one in their wildest dreams would have ever thought was untrue).

And that assumption was: The more Education the better, which would only lead to better job prospects. It was drilled into the heads of the baby boomers by their parents and grandparents.

Thanks to Nando and other related bloggers, this and related very basic and fundamental questions regarding the value of an Education in this day and age in the US are seriously being questioned--almost from a street level.

Well yes, from a street level.

I mean, you just came up with a theory for the reinvention of the Educational system. You deserve credit for a novel idea.

Would it work? Maybe.

In the meantime, the student loan debt clock is nearing a Trillion dollars, and a lot of people are drowning in a lifetime of debt.

Google the student loan debt clock.

So what to tell the kiddies thinking about borrowing huge amounts of money in order to get a higher education in 2011? 2013? 2014? etc.

Don't we owe them a little guidance?Shouldn't we be at least a little bit to blame if we don't warn them now about the devastating financial pitfalls that await?

This post isn't relevant to Valpo BUT this morning I was in court reading the news on my Ipad when a mild mannered judge erupted into a tirade and ripped a "newbie" attorney a new asshole. It turns out the newbie filed a pleading in the wrong county. The newbie tried to mitigate his mistake by saying he just graduated law school and passed the bar in February. The judge said: "If you are the prototypical lawyer that law schools are releasing into the legal world, our profession is truly in the Dark Ages."

I looked up this attorney on PACER. He doesn't know what the fuck he is doing and he is undercharging. I predict he will either lose his license within 1 year, be sued for malpractice or starve to death for not knowing how much to charge. I have to agree with the judge's assessment about the sad state of the legal profession. Lastly, I agree 100% with 1:21PM. Law schools don't teach you how to practice law. The newbie I saw today could have been the moot court winner or best brief in his class but he still doesn't know how to represent clients. Now every time I or anyone in that courtroom this morning see this kid, we will know him as the double asshole (especially for the new one the judge tore into him). I am also starting to see more legal malpractice cases on the docket as well as disciplinary proceedings against kids that were admitted post 2007. I wonder how many of these kids will be disbarred with six figures of student loans to pay off.

@1:21. I've been out for almost as long as you, 8 years. Tried the solo thing once I got booted out of biglaw, but didn't have the financial resources to see it through. Now I'm working as a contract attorney at a big firm and trying to pay down my exhorbitant debt. Once I get that down to a manageable level, then I will likely go on my own again. The debt creates another barrier to entry. You have to have some real 'nads to open up shop with all that educational debt staring you in the face. In addition, it takes money to get a practice off the ground - something that the majority of recent graduates do not have!

@1:59: I've got no nads, just lucky. My parents are both reasonabley succesful real estate investors. They paid for 100% of mine and my siblings' college and law school. I graduated at the bottom of a TTT (I wasn't stupid, just bored.) I didn't want to practice law. For close to 2 years, I tried to get into technology entreprenuership. That went no where. My father had been a long time friend of various public figures in my state and recommended me for a government job. I was very enthusiastic in my job and tried dozens of cases to verdict. After 3 1/2 years, I learned everything to know about medium scale state court litigation ("shitlaw") and went out on my own. I come from a business background and it wasn't difficult for me to sell myself to clients. I still didn't know how to do big money federal litigation, so I hooked up with a boutique where they paid me nothing but I worked for a share of the contingency. Since I own my own shitlaw practice which pays the bills, I could afford to essentially work for free. I learned federal litigation agains big firms without having to spend years doing document review. Now I own my own boutique with a few partners. I'm not rich, but I'm keeping my head above water and working for the future. Send me an email if you want advice at abxresearch1@hotmail.com. The thing about BigLaw to solo is that you never get the chance to master shitlaw, which is easy and reasonably lucrative if done right, and it's hard to set up a sophisticated boutique without shitlaw cash flow. But it can be done. Contract work is a dead end.

Don't ever give away your asshole to the USA, because you will have to spend the rest of your life as a wayward, pariah 2nd class citizen sort of a human being, shitting through your mouth.

In other words, I beg of you, do not go to Law School in this day and age!

PLEASE! PLEASE! DO NOT BE AN ABSOLUTE FOOL AND ENROLL IN LAW SCHOOL.

Unless it is a top 10 Law School.

Go spend the next 3 years drunk, and you will be better off.

If I can scrape the ground and beg and plead, and grab your knees and hang on..

Do not EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER,EVER take out Student Loans!

For the Love of GOD, do not do it. or your life will be a piece of shit as my life is.

Education has been sorely corrupted in the USA, and absolutely without any mercy or sympathy or consideration for the debtor. The USA is a very hard taskmaster, and entirely unsympathetic to someone who has taken out student loans in the face of a nonexistant job market.

It will always be so for at least the next half-century.

A Check-Mate situation for the next 50 years at least, until legislation will catch up. But by then most of us will be dead by natural causes or by our own hands.

The newbie was in Chancery division, which is divided by counties (in NJ). The newbie filed an answer to a foreclosure complaint and mentioned to the judge that he had filed a Chapter 13 case in bankruptcy court on behalf of the foreclosure defendant. I looked up the newbie on PACER and saw the bankruptcy case he mentioned. The case was a mess. His clients were ineligible for Chapter 13 as they exceeded the unsecured limits of 11 USC section 109(e). He should have filed Chapter 11 but he probably has no idea of how to do that. I suspect the bankruptcy case will be dismissed and the foreclosure will continue. This is what law schools are producing today.

That guy is wrong about law, but right about science PhD for the most part.Postdocs are being used as cheap labor by Academia. Adjunct professors are also being used; and Adjuncts are looked down upon as cheap and not good enough if they have too much experience adjuncting.

PhDs also face discrimination similar to JDs in the market place because people think that all PhDs can find interesting and somewhat lucrative jobs.

It's the same for a Comp Sci PhD to be honest, except some of them get hired by Google and whoever.

A Master's degree I think is still advisable, provided that you don't need student loans to get one. The Marginal return on science education starts falling at the PhD level.

I would advise people to get a PhD in the sciences if and only if

(a) They would rather die than not have one.(b) They have always been at, or near, the top of the academic latter since middle school.(c) Someone else will pay for it (Don't ever borrow money for graduate education).(d) The schools they can go to have a little bit of prestige (It's doesn't have to be MIT, but it also should not be U of Phoenix).(e) They can finish their degree quickly.

@8:36. Definitely do not pay for your Ph.D. Let the department pay your way and offer you a stipend as well. They will own your ass for 5 years (at least in the sciences - 4 years if you are very lucky) so they might as well pay for it. Oops. I forgot, "they" are not actually paying you, the American population is paying you in the form of taxation. This is why I have an issue with all the overseas students getting into our doctoral programs so they can go back to their own country and ultimately compete against us. Does that make any sense? It's ridiculous. These academic institutions would say that there is not enough "interest" in our doctoral programs or Americans are more interested in money professions such as law or business. There might be some truth to that generally, but the fact is there are a lot of people in this country that would love to get into these programs, they're just not aware of the opportunities owing to the arcane and technical nature of some of the fields. Once again, do not pay for your Ph.D. If you have to pay the academic program is not well funded (and possibly not very reputable) and you're better off looking for other opportunities.

And yet, this "judge" is probably some privileged, silver-spooned, politically-connected MF whose father's political connections enabled his miserable sorry-ass to get enough signatures to be placed on the ballot. Probably was a shitty practitioner in his own right and needed the salary. All he had to do with this unfortunate kid was pull him aside and give him some talkin' to quietly, for the good of the profession and the public, instead of being a complete asshole about it.

Too typical of many judges, I'm afraid. Not the kid's fault he is not being mentored properly; rather, it is a failing of this very sick, diseased, and fading "profession."

Every posting I've encountered here is abjectly pathetic. None of you would know what a higher vision of life looked like if it touched you in a harmful or offensive manner. You chitter away like chipmunks about the inconsequential aspects of how to get ahead kissing ass while never accomplishing anything of real value. You people have opportunities everyday to right wrongs and push the cause of justice a little further than it was 24 hours ago. The reason why you so madly and neurotically focus on the social gamesmanship of practice building and slipping in the door of a blue chip law firm is that none of you ever possessed the innate ability to be the best of the best in your chosen profession. You'd better pad your academic credentials and become adept at social manipulation when you ain't got the juice. So while you shining examples of potential or current officers of the courts play down in the mud, you will never raise your eyes to the lofty potential to do good in a profession maybe better suited than any other to lift up those who've been wronged.

Perhaps, you have notions of law as a "noble profession." If that is the case, then I truly feel sorry for you, naive fool. What grown "man" actually believes in such a concept of "the law"?!?! To wit:

"So while you shining examples of potential or current officers of the courts play down in the mud, you will never raise your eyes to the lofty potential to do good in a profession maybe better suited than any other to lift up those who've been wronged."

Were you raised on drivel such as "A Few Good Men"?! Even licensed attorneys and judges - at least those who are somewhat honest - do not believe in the integrity of the system. Officers of the court are NOTHING special. Do you also heap unnecessary praise on your accountant?! Here is a dose of reality for you, douche-bag:

The law was constructed and conceived by the wealthy, as a way to justify their station in life. (They must have realized that rationalizing their status on religious grounds would not appease the ignorant masses forever.) The legal system is TYPICALLY the fiercest weapon wielded against the poor and the weak.

Lawyers defend the system. They are not in the business to attack it, or to bring it down. In a moment of clarity, most defense attorneys will tell you that they would willingly throw one of their clients overboard, IF it meant protecting the $y$tem. What would you expect from "officers of the court," Dumbass?!

Quit acting like a foolish woman, who reads romance novels - and expects men to behave like the characters in those books!! Grow up, and develop a functioning brain.

I just happened to fall across this blog of law school bitterness and maybe I missed something but I just graduated from VULAW'11 and (sure its been a while) but I will begin my first real full time legal position with a Federal Agency this March at $110k. I know its not as much as I was hoping to make but it will be the job that launches my career. I wasn't the top of my class, not in law review and I didn't have a hook-up to get the job. I posted for the position, they liked my previous experience and hired me after an interview. I know the legal academic world has its many flaws but why are you so strongly against "law schools"? I had a great time in law school, stressful yeah, the only thing I regret is having a girlfriend almost the whole time I was there.

“I just happened to fall across this blog of law school bitterness and maybe I missed something…”

http://www.valpo.edu/law/about-us/learn-more/careers

Apparently, you missed something during childhood development. Actually, in your case, this occurred during the prenatal stage – which means that it is not really your fault. Somehow, you failed to grow a brain stem – while you were in your mother’s womb, Bitch.

Furthermore, I don’t believe you when you claim to make $110K at your first, full-time legal position – with a federal agency, no less. If this is the case, then who did you fellate to attain the job?!?! Lawyers who land jobs with the federal government typically start out making $40K-$45K per year. I personally know several JDs and recently-minted attorneys who work for the Treasury Department, and they are happy to earn $45K annually. Those making $110K are usually in management, and they have worked their way to that position – over several years, or decades, of work.

By the way, how did you “post for the position”?!?! The employer – in this case, the federal agency – posts the job online. Job seekers, i.e. you, then apply for the position. I have been on hiring committees before, and have never seen a job applicant “post” for the job. Perhaps, a college basketball player who is seeking a position with an NBA team might “post” for the job. For instance, a center or forward from Butler University – a school with a real basketball program - who went undrafted might post up an NBA player near the basket – in order to draw attention to his skills.

http://www.valpo.edu/law/about-us/learn-more/careers

Your TTTT alma mater still does not publish employment placement or starting salary figures, for its recent graduating classes. Yes, this Fourth Tier Trash Pit MUST be embarrassed to provide such lofty numbers, right?!?!

“I had a great time in law school, stressful yeah, the only thing I regret is having a girlfriend almost the whole time I was there.”

You cannot even write a simple sentence, but you want others to believe that you – as a supposed Valparai$o UNiver$iTTTTy Sewer of Law – are now making $110K per year, as a federal employee. Get a life, cockroach. This blog is about reality, not fantasy. Also, do you not like women?! If you feel that law school is stressful, recognize that having sex with one’s girlfriend or significant other is a nice way to relieve that stress, moron.

By the way, US “News” & World Report still lists Valparaiso University School of Law as a fourth tier pile of garbage. If you prefer to use the magazine’s new term, then Valpo is now in the “Rank Not Published” category.

LOL! I noticed "Suffolk University Law School" Boston, MA availed itself of the same "opportunity" (Rank Not Published). These self-important blowhard pricks were eager enough to fuck up someones life over ONE POINT on an exam, but apparently can't get their OWN shit together...despite a fancy new law school paid for by the suckers, I mean students. This "institution" has as much "integrity" as our current President, i.e. NONE, and should be closed down b/c it's only fucking up the lives of more and more young people every day.

That institution is a disgrace. I am embarrassed to admit that I earned my JD from that shit hole. It's quite apparent a few of these "anonymous" comments talking up the university are written by professors/administrators. I could tell you exactly which ones, too. I'd like to make known that all three of the deans serving during the time this article was drafted have stepped down. From what I understand, there was a pending lawsuit against the deans and legal research department for grade fraud and another type of ethical violation. I actually personally know the student involved and he/she seems to be talking openly about it now. I think a publication is in the works!

I attended Valpo and actually heard something about that while it was happening. The associate dean for library services, who also taught legal research, happened to randomly "announce her retirement" that year. I don't have anything against that institution, but I will say I resent the legal research department. They acted so friendly at orientation, causing everyone to believe it would be a nice year with them. After you officially began the course, though, they viewed you as another paycheck and degraded you for their own entertainment. I would've liked to have taken Advanced Legal Research, but it wasn't worth being humiliated every day for an entire semester. Oh, well. We can only hope things have changed with the help of the new dean.

I recently had a few individuals recommend I view the comments in this blog. I am VUSL alumni and have some information to contribute. First, I think the individual who left the above post is absolutely pathetic. How is that information even relevant to the issue being debated? If we're all going to mention names, I'm about 99.999% sure it was posted by a resentful Mark Adams. It is highly unlikely anyone not in an administrative position would have knowledge of this information. For argument's sake, let's just say someone did a little digging and found the information, how on Earth would they know exactly when she applied and transferred, etc.? Oh, speaking of digging, should I upload the conversations I had with the Deans while I was in Valparaiso? I have a recording of Adams making various statements conflicting personal emails he sent me, as well as information on my file. I have a recording of Joellen Lind screaming at the top of her lungs. Every time I said the word "but," she shouted "Bullshit!" Professional, right? She also drank with one of her students, Steve. A campus police officer told me she was stopped for DUI suspicion by a county officer, too. Of course, she caused a scene and the officer called the campus police and they told the officer to let her go. At one point, she very conveniently offered to "help" me with an issue I had with the administration, leading me to believe she could be trusted. Lesson learned: you can't tell her anything because she runs to everyone else and talks about you & sets you up. She's probably the most malicious of them all. Should I continue to Conison? VUSL students constantly submitted articles to the school of law's newspaper staff, desperate for a new dean. But the articles were never run, because the staff was hesitant to run "unprofessional" articles. He got away with being a snake for quite awhile. He was the chair of the ABA Accredidations Committee, so the administrators flew under the radar for quite some time. One of the past presidents of the VUSL Student Bar Association has a recording of himself speaking with Conison during their mandatory weekly meetings. When the student expressed a heartfelt concern, Conison asked, "What do you want me to do about it?" The VUSL students received a survey about their Dean. Two days later, he announced that he decided to step down from his position.

I decided to do some digging of my own & stumbled across this gem. At one point in the video, he mentions a woman putting an app on her children's phone to keep track of them. He then emphasizes the location, saying, "... in Moscow, Idaho!" Funny, just like the anonymous poster above. He is just another wolf in sheep's clothing.

That doesn't surprise me about Lind! Unfortunately, I got stuck w/ her for civ pro. She completely took away the point of learning. She focused most of her attention on embarrassing people and abusing her power. She is the most power hungry human being I have ever known. My friend and I walked in right on time, and she tried doing her usual "you're late! goodbye!" w/ a fake, passive-aggressive grin. We told her we still had about 15 seconds left. So, she decides to pick on my friend and I for the first half of the class. Asking us random questions, trying to make us look like idiots, all because she was pissed she couldn't kick us out. She made fun of one of my friends because he was summarizing a brief and said, "he rented him some land." She sarcastically rolled her eyes, then accused him of reading a canned brief. Did she miss the memo that first semester 1Ls were not enrolled in property law? She once flew off the handle because a student made a joke while she was explaining something. She told the class that she and Professor Adams had been talking and decided the students should sit closer to the front. But she said it over and over while she was explaining it. Eventually, a guy raised his hand and said, "So basically, we need to sit in the front right?" She started shouting and told him he should drop her class if he wanted to be a smart ass. She seemed really emotionally unstable. Being around her was like walking on egg shells. When we were reviewing for an exam, she said we were only allowed to come ask her questions in a group. She said she wouldn't help you if you were alone. God forbid she actually work for her six figures and explain something more than once. I think she was on something most of the time. She would talk so fast and be all over the place. Something just wasn't right.

Whoever runs this page should remove the posts about Tyra. That was completely uncalled for. To the person who posted about the deans: did you really believe Prof. Lind would do something nice for you if it didn't benefit her in some way? She is a ruthless bitch who cares about no one but herself. I hate to burst your bubble, but she could care less about you. Get over it.

It appears not much has changed. The woman who was appointed to replace Conison (Andrea Lyons) was actually one of Casey Anthony's attorneys. Evidently, she left the case for financial reasons. It sounds like she will make a great fit at Valparaiso. The adminitiator for this page should delete the garbage string of posts above so prospective students might actually see these recent posts.

Yeah I agree with the person above. I wish I had a page like this to view before they locked me in. How has no one mentioned the career planning center yet? Is the woman with the skunk streak in her bangs still around? Or the lady who used to try to type with the six inch fingernails? If they spent as much time helping the students as they did on their personal grooming perhaps more grads would be employed.

Haha, gotta love the CPC folks! The woman with the crazy highlight had no idea what what she was talking about. During a meeting, she told me there was some sort of policy that grads couldn't work for the university they had attended. I'm not sure if she thought I saw a bright future working there for the rest of my life and felt compelled to save me? But she made an ass of herself in the process. That's for sure. My friend and I also went to a few career fairs during law school & were asked if anyone had ever critiqued our resumes. Why, yes... the fabulous CPC!

I realize I'm a little late in the game, but to answer your question: I am going to go out on a limb and assume that at least half of those professors have some form of autism. If you read up on the subject, you will find that teaching is a common profession for those who are mildly on the autism spectrum. I mean, I could be wrong: Conison could simply be a pompous asshole and Lind could be an "emotionally unstable, ruthless bitch." However, I prefer to take the high road and give them both the benefit of the doubt and assume they are mildly autistic.

Please do not attend this school. I, unfortunately, am alumni and still regret my decision. Every. Single. Day. The administrators treat the students like they are children who cannot speak or think for themselves. They have a constant need to play hall monitor and involve themselves in the students' personal affairs, outside of class. I recall a female student being called in for a meeting with the dean and disciplined for commenting about another female student's weight on Facebook. It had the legendary name of "Sweet Valpo High" when I attended. Also, do not buy into Lind's feminist act. Without providing specifics, please let me assure you: when no one is watching, she honestly could not care less about women's' rights and safety. It is just for show, or perhaps an intimidation tactic. That entire school is one big show, honestly. Please learn from my mistake and go somewhere else.

If you're on the fence about attending this institution, let me tell you how they will lure you in, before you even realize what has happened. They have a tendency to sell themselves with prospective students by going on and on about all of these notable things alumni have accomplished. Ok, let me just break it to you: yes, there are a few grads from that institution who are doing good things. . . however, it is only because they are using talents they already had prior to attending that shit hole. And those students clearly settled by attending that school... most likely because it was the closest school to home, or they were offered the most scholarship money from them. That's right: these people had these phenomenal talents prior to getting sucked in, and they would have accomplished these things, regardless of where they attended law school. Please pay no attention to the fact they try to attribute it to themselves or the education they provide.

An article in the Chicago Tribune, dated 2/26/16, states: "Valparaiso University announced Friday that in the wake of declining enrollment for its law school, it is offering buyouts to tenured faculty and faculty members with multi-year contracts." That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen for current and prospective students. The professors who remain after this wonderful "buyout" takes place will most likely be placed wherever there is a need for them, therefore teaching courses outside of their general area of expertise, with which they have no experience. And the professors who are permitted to continue teaching in their field of interest will most likely be teaching every section of that course, and less available to the students. Dean Lyons attempted to chalk up this sharp decline in enrollment to an overall drop in individuals taking the LSAT. However, she failed to provide a figure that is representative of their current student enrollment, in relation to other ABA accredited law schools. She also failed to acknowledge that correlation does not equate to causation, with regard to the LSAT statistics. There are plenty of individuals who took the LSAT, but opted not to waste their time with Valparaiso University School of Law. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Objective

This blog is maintained by a graduate of a third tier law school. My goal is to educate prospective law students about the perils of obtaining a legal education. There are many pitfalls - the debt load, the oversupply of lawyers, the fact that there are not enough legal jobs to satisfy nearly 45,000 annual law graduates, and the reality that the majority of law school graduates will end up with low-paying jobs upon completion of their "legal studies."