I think you have to prove to yourself that Gid exist; since you have refused to taken anyone else’s word for it. Its always been an individuals journey and that goes without saying. You will see if you are willing to try again—but I cant teach how on the internet.

...

Sometimes we have to say “I failed in my prayers” rather than say I couldn’t find evidence. That would be a most humbling thing to admit and this will remove the ego. Once you submit to God then you are ready to see God.

This is difficult indeed to admit and you may become angry at me but I dont say it an offensive or demeaning way.

Humility has to come before God reveals himself.

These two comments comes off to me as "you have to believe in god before you can believe in god". Instead of accepting the possiblily that god doesn't exist, the blame must reside on the person in question.

You've also invoked the "egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" arguements. How many times does it have to be said? Atheists are not angry at god (since it's silly to be angry at a non-existence thing), and atheists are no more egotisic than the averge person. Heck, in some way, I'd say we're less egotisic (at least in the sense that we don't think we're some divine being's special creation).

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Again some of the answers from some of you sound like“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!”

You keep repeating this line. I think this is actually your arguement.

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Im sorry but that’s just another assumption that every scientist and Kings and Emperors and teachers and intellect from the last 10,000 years are ALL FLAWED HUMAN BEINGS.

I don't even understand this counter-arguement (if it can be called that). You seem to have a problem with my statement that scientists and kings are flawed human beings. Uh, because...?

Every human beings are flawed. I doubt anyone denies that. There's a reason the expression "nobody's perfect" exists. Why is it such a big thing for you to consider that certain people, because of their occupations, are also flawed? I can only guess that by accepting that train of thought, it'll tear holes into your arguements.

I noticed that you didn't comment at all about the Heaven's Gate thing. Was there, in fact, an alien spaceship waiting for those people (since they committed mass suicude for me)? Is there any chance that they were (very) tragically delusional?

It was once accepted that the sun circled the earth. Surely all those people couldnt be wrong, right?

At the time of the thought --this was the only Truth available to them so those people were right.Later the Truth was available through Knowledge and a new Truth came to light.

No. They weren't. Unless you are suggesting that the sun DID circle the Earth until enough people believed in the alternative?

Fact is, they were wrong. Wrong for good reason, perhaps, but still wrong.

Because if you are going to suggest that "the only Truth available to them (meant) those people were right", then I expect you to agree that I am right when I say "there is no god". Literally. I expect you to say "Anfauglir is right when he says there is no god", or retract that nonsense you posted above.

My green text indicates I am acting as a moderator, not a participant in the conversation. Let me give you some advice to help your posting habits.

First, stop trying to address everyone at once. I know you are outnumbered 10 to 1 so that may seem like a more efficient way to do it. But it makes your posts very long and rather shallow. I stopped reading your last post after about a paragraph because it was so long and did not specifically address anything I said. It is frustrating for me to put effort into addressing your arguments and then you not directly respond. I am sure other people feel the same way.

We have a Debate area where you can talk to someone - anyone you like who is willing - one on one. Other people are not permitted to join the conversation unless you both agree. Please consider using that.

Second, and related to that, stop trying to address every conceiveable topic. It makes your posts very long and rather shallow. Instead, I suggest you look at just one or two aspects of the argument. That lets you get deeper into the concepts.

Last, your quoting and formatting skills need work. Please practice these things in the Test area. When you are better at it, your posts will be more readable and people will understand you better.

I hope that helps. Let me or any other moderator know if you have any questions.

I have given all of you one last individual replies below on this forum. Im sorry its been a long time posting. I just didn’t have time. Bearing in mind what the moderators had said to me I thought I would not be able to post according to this forum rules. I have decided to make one last reply and hope the moderators dont delete my ‘unauthorised’ way of posting.If they do then let me say it was nice discussing with you all.

Astreja this is probably going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly. I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise. It was nice discussing with you. I have numbered each points and hope its all clear to read.

1] I wrote:- I think you have to prove to yourself that God exists...

You replied:- And how does one avoid deluding oneself into "proving" a nonexistent god by imagining that one has the truth of the matter?

My answer:- By experiencing God; then there is no imagination or delusion. So try your best to experience God.

I will leave you how this is done from my point of understanding. Hinduism explains three ways to communicate with God.1] By action or Karma (deeds)2] Through knowledge or Jnana3] Devotion or Bhakti.

The way I personally experience God is by praying to him--devotion. My personal prayers have been answered under difficult circumstances. You might say they are just a coincidence or something else. If it happened once then I would agree, but numerous times is more than a coincidence.

Since I worship Krishna I sit and repeat his name in my mind. As a Hindu we also have an image of God which I can look at and pray to. I could look at the symbol AUM (if no image is available) so it doesn’t have to be an image of a God. If someone can pray to God without an image then that is good also.To you it’s all going to sound very weird-- but that’s expected to someone who is not a Hindu. Its all natural to millions of Hindus who worship in this way daily. So I would instruct you to pray in this way so that you too can prove to yourself that God exist. Firstly take a bath, wear clean clothes, sit in a clean room where sound is nil or if you like play music which is peaceful, often incenses is a good way to make the atmosphere smell nice –although air fresheners are great in today’s time. Mediate on the name of God. If no name comes to you then simply take a deep breath (not very deep) and as you exhale you make the sound ‘Aum’. Keep stretching the name ‘AUM’ as long you are exhaling. Aum sounds like Home. Day by day as you begin to connect with God, you are surely to have experience of God. Talk to God. Ask God what ever you like but in a respectful way. Discuss whatever is in your mind because the answers will be given. No prayers ever go unheard. Three qualities or gunas are described in Hinduism. They are sattva, rajas and tamas. The three qualities –to put it the most simplest way are –Goodness, Passion, Darkness.They all exist within us and one is either dominant to the other or these emotions and qualities interchange at different times in different moods. We need to keep the sattva quality in dominance over others where possible. • Sattva is -- Purity, compassion, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, recognition, generosity, patience, kindness• Rajas -- Desire, attachment, possessiveness, hyperactivity, fear, nervousness, anxiety, aggressiveness, competitiveness, power, prestige, name and fame• Tamas -- Impurity, greed, anger, dullness, envy, jealousy, delusion, confusion, depression, stupor, unconsciousness, comaAnyway the point of mentioning them is that-- when we approach God-- we must do so with our best qualities of Goodness. With humility and love and peace. Jesus said:- "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

This is the prescribed method of seeing God in all religions (with different variations off course). If you are unable to pray like this ie to seek the God; the proof you are looking for; and is still seeking some other ways; then I dont think I can show you because this is the one way I know that works for me so it would be foolish of me to tell you other ways that I haven’t tried. I dont know what other ways you have tried and Im not saying that this way is superior to any other ways either.When experience what I experienced; make the judgement for you own self –God or no God. That was presented from a devotional point of view. If you want to know about God through knowledge or Jnana then please read this interesting question answer on God. But you might decide its inconclusive after having read it. Anyway its for info only. Its the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi Edited by David Godmanhttp://www.hinduism.co.za/god.htmThe other is to read the Bhagvad Gita which is one o the Hindu books that gives in details the conversation between God and one of his ‘friend’ Arjuna. This is for you info only and you can read at your leisure when you time. Its not to convince you of my arguments or convert you or anything like that. I think you might like as the teachings are universal—like the teachings of Jesus—and if you removed the soul and God bits you might even like it. The chapter one is hard to get through but chapter two is where you could start. It does have a lot of Hindus terminology and this could get in the way of understanding the message. Anyway its there if ever in the future you wish to consider reading.

2] I wrote:- [[Once you submit to God then you are ready to see God... Humility has to come before God reveals himself.

You replied:- That, IMO, is complete and utter nonsense that is used as an excuse for why gods don't show up. To an alleged being of such immense power, the difference between a human's "humility" and a human's "pride" would be infinitesimal.]]

My reply:- Humility is a powerful emotion and a virtue that wins friends, family, business, self confidence etc then what to speak of obtaining God. Arrogance is the opposite and no friends or family will show up if you behave/speak to them in such manners.

‘Submitting’ is humility. If you take a mental approach that “There is no God” “There is no God” “There is no God” “There is no God” “There is no God” then there is no God.So once you submit that God exist then the way forward is easy.

Speaking with humility automatically attracts people to us. So use that to attract God.Pride and arrogance are not infinitesimal even to a God. The satvic quality must be in full ascendance to approach God.

Again you might ask (as you did in question 1) is that just another way of deluding your own nature into believing in a God? No.Because the experience you have will tell you otherwise. You have a solid mind and Im sure you wont be easily fooled by your experiences.

What if you don’t get an experience or an answer?‘The negative doubt must be removed and approach with a positive frame of mind.’ This is what my school teacher always told us before the exams. The right attitude and frame of mind ie Positive thinking.

3]I wrote:- [[Repeating the name of God sends out vibrations/singles/energy that connects us with God.]]

You relied :- [[I think it just sends vibrations out for a short distance, whereupon they lose energy and die out. Unless a god is already in close physical proximity, in which case it should already know what we want or need just by observing us, such prayers are doomed to fail because humans just don't possess that much vocal power.]]

My answer:- In certain Hindu beliefs we say there are two souls. One is your own and the other is that of God. There is no need for shouting. He is already hearing your every thoughts. He sits there quietly observing all you do. He knows what you want but you haven’t given it permission to fulfil your needs.As Jesus said “Let Thy will be done not mine”-- and God will help.

So why don’t people leave everything to God? The ego gets in the way and desire for things other than God. These perhaps block our path to God.

You might ask what about when we desire God? Is that desire not bad?‘Desiring’ God is different to ‘desiring’ other material things because the highest form of desire is God.

Now why doesn’t he just take control and fulfil all your wishes anyway? Free will ( i dont wish to go into that area of discussion because there are conflicting interpretations from different people).

A mother --more often then not-- knows what her child wants but often does nothing until the child asks for it –be it money, toys, food, some favour etc. I also speak form experience. God may know what you want but you have to approach and ask. He lets you do things your way till you are ready to be with him---(unfortunately when we do things our own way it may include crimes—This is when the ‘Tamsic’ nature is in the ascendance).

The Rishis (seers of truth), absorbed in meditation, saw within themselves the ultimate Reality, the self-luminous Being, the one God, who dwells as the self-conscious power in all creatures. Deep within all beings He dwells, hidden from sight by the coverings of the gunas – sattwa, Rajas, and Tamas.

My reply:- Point noted. I said that because we seem to be countering each others arguments hours on end and getting no where. My truth is better than your –no my truth is better than your. This is why I keep saying God has to be experienced personally.

You said :- [["We find your alleged 'new truth' unconvincing."]]

My reply:- That’s fair enough. That was also said by some 5,000 years ago. But again I repeat, --since God is a personal experience then surely you have to do something yourself to find God. Its not likely that anyone is ever going to stand him before you and say “here is GOD”.

I have prayed to God that God shows himself to you and if you will receive him with the right frame of mind then he will show himself.

5]

I said:- The fact that they believed –then this is the ‘Truth’. Hence Jesus was real –people don't often believe in unreal stuff.

You said:- [[[That, sir, is ridiculous. People have believed in unreal stuff for untold centuries. They often do this because someone else told them it was real, and they lacked the information to know otherwise.]]]

My reply:- You are correct. Its the lack of information to know otherwise that made people believe in unreal stuff like demons, vampires, ghosts, Draculas witches etc (OK so you might consider adding God in my list as unreal.)

But unlike God people have dismissed ghosts and vampires and aliens and witches, Santa clause etc because of the better information they have now received. The better information about God still has not enabled billions to dismiss God. So he is still real, because in my opinion and the opinion of the billions, he is real.

Truth. What really is truth and what is false? The only truth is from the one who experiences God.

6]I said:- God has not been proven false.

You replied:- Logical fallacy: Shifting the burden of proof. You have to prove your god to be true. We are under no obligation to prove it false.

My reply:- I think you took a sentence out of a large paragraph on me trying to explain the truth and untruth. It should be read as a whole. I have not shifted the burden. You have only chosen to interpret it that way. Infact i may have confused you because it was directed more towards Aaaron123 in reply to his ‘Heaven's Gate’ believers so I apologise.

I am not trying to convert you or force you into believing in a God. We are merely asking questions in this forum so in a way the burden of proof falls on both of us to prove each others claims. The sentence was required in my paragraph and so it was made.

7]To the remainder of the points I would just repeat myself—Experience what many of have experienced, witnessed, seen by worshippers--then by all means you are welcome to dismiss God.8]All the best

Aaron123 this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly. I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise. It was nice discussing with you.

1]I said :- [[I think you have to prove to yourself that God exist; since you have refused to taken anyone else’s word for it..........]]

You replied:- [[[These two comments comes off to me as "you have to believe in god before you can believe in god". Instead of accepting the possiblily that god doesn't exist, the blame must reside on the person in question.]]

My reply:- My comment was made after you and others claimed you had already believed/prayed/searched a God. So in a way you had already believed in a God and Im not telling you anything different.

Further more –YES—you have to believe something exist if you are to search for it or prove of its existence.

2]You replied:- [[[You've also invoked the "egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" arguements. How many times does it have to be said? Atheists are not angry at god (since it's silly to be angry at a non-existence thing), and atheists are no more egotisic than the averge person. Heck, in some way, I'd say we're less egotisic (at least in the sense that we don't think we're some divine being's special creation).]]]

My reply:- [["egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" arguments]]So I should just ignore/overlook ‘your’ ego and anger because that argument has been put forward by many before me.

My reply to your [[atheists are no more egotisic than the averge person.]]The difference between both is none. It exists and stops our progress towards God.

My reply to your [[Atheists are not angry at god (since it's silly to be angry at a non-existence thing)]] No you are only angry at those who claim to worship a God rather than a God itself.

My reply to your :- [[Heck, in some way, I'd say we're less egotisic (at least in the sense that we don't think we're some divine being's special creation)]]

If I declare i am my fathers son then this is not ego. Its fact. If i claim I am divine beings special creation then that is fact and not ego.

If however i say you are NOT a special creation of the Divine then this is my ego.If thats what you think worshippers are doing then the worshippers are obviously deluded.

3]I said:- [[[[Again some of the answers from some of you sound like“Im right, You’re wrong. Full stop! End of!” ]]

You replied:- [[[You keep repeating this line. I think this is actually your arguement.]]]

My reply:- This is my summary of the arguments used by all of you so far and Im sorry you dont like it. I dont have that special posh name for it.

You all keep giving my side of the arguments some posh names (Logical fallacies, Special pleading, and strawman. Induality, I am agnostic atheists – Gnostic atheists –etc etc etc) . (I was surprised you didn’t have a posh name for [["egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" –haha may be you do).

4] I said:- [[Im sorry but that’s just another assumption that every scientist and Kings and Emperors and teachers and intellect from the last 10,000 years are ALL FLAWED HUMAN BEINGS.]]

You replied:- [[I don't even understand this counter-arguement (if it can be called that). You seem to have a problem with my statement that scientists and kings are flawed human beings. Uh, because...?Every human beings are flawed. I doubt anyone denies that. There's a reason the expression "nobody's perfect" exists. Why is it such a big thing for you to consider that certain people, because of their occupations, are also flawed? I can only guess that by accepting that train of thought, it'll tear holes into your arguements.]]]

My reply:- Flawed—I thought you were using the argument that because we are not all perfect, then it meant all those people had wrong idea about God and were just wrong to follow a God ie hence flawed in that respect.

Again to me it seemed you were just dismissing the intellect of everyone on the planet that exists or ever existed who believed in a God.

Yes "nobody's perfect"; but we are all working towards perfection and this is what Hinduism is partly about; hence re-incarnations.

5] You replied:- [[I noticed that you didn't comment at all about the Heaven's Gate thing. Was there, in fact, an alien spaceship waiting for those people (since they committed mass suicude for me)? Is there any chance that they were (very) tragically delusional?]]]

My reply:- I thought I had addressed this when I said about Jesus and the ‘Truth’.

Heaven's Gate --The same argument can be used about Santa clause. Some people (especially children) believe that Santa Clause exist because they have been convinced by stories about him. When he does not bring them their desired gifts they cry about it. Is there any chance that they were delusional?

People dying for Jesus is ‘perhaps’ in a way similar to people dying for some aliens.That is they believed with absolute faith --what was being told to them was the Truth.

In the case of the alien believers when the truth was proven untruth—they became disillusioned and committed suicide. In the case of believers of Jesus, they were forced to abandon their ways and they didn’t.

The story of Jesus was True to people, aliens were True for some people, Santa clause was true for some. So who believes in the ‘real’ Truth? They all believed in the what was ‘Truth’ for them from their knowledge at the time and place.

Heaven's Gate --According to the information they received and how they deciphered this information, they decided that this information was the Truth. When the story of aliens is put in such an intellectual way then some naturally were convinced it was the truth. Sometimes the press tells lies and we believe them, sometimes Government plays tricks with our minds about wars or about some alien area 51, even films convince us otherwise and its so easy to believe everything and anything. However these people committed suicide only when they found out the reality of their truth was lie.Children only cried when their truth did not come into reality ie did not receive the desired presents. The truth becomes untruth only when it was proven false.God has not been proven false. God was real at the dawn of time and today.Today people have not yet lost faith in Jesus. So he is still the Truth.

Those who do give up believing in God, Im sure have numerous reasons to do so. But they only act according to their belief and not proof ie they have not proved that God did not exist. Not finding a way to connect with God is not a reason to say he does not exist.

This reply is for Anfauglir onlyHello Anfauglir this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise. I hope you will understand my last attempt to reply to you only.

1]I wrote:- [[At the time of the thought --this was the only Truth available to them so those people were right.]]

You replied:- [[No. They weren't. Unless you are suggesting that the sun DID circle the Earth until enough people believed in the alternative?]]

My reply:- It is easy to speak of what is false and what is truth after we know the facts. But just go back in time when everyone was saying ‘the world is flat’, the sun is going around the earth’. I think it would be hard to deny otherwise, unless you had better proof, at that time. So in those days this was their truth. (Today we know its nonsense.) But we have to keep the time and state of mens mind at that time.

2]You replied [[Fact is, they were wrong. Wrong for good reason, perhaps, but still wrong. Because if you are going to suggest that "the only Truth available to them (meant) those people were right", then I expect you to agree that I am right when I say "there is no god". Literally. I expect you to say "Anfauglir is right when he says there is no god", or retract that nonsense you posted above.]]

My reply :- They were wrong but it was their truth at that moment in time. I agree that you may believe ‘there is no God’. This is your perceived truth but not mine. I cannot agree with your truth when I have experienced God? You are only making your belief into the truth because you cant prove God by your own faith because you have not been able to see, hear or experience God which many of us have. God is a personal experience and i cant prove him for you.You must prove God for yourself.

Hello Median this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise. I hope you will understand the format of my reply to you only.

You said [[You need to demonstrate your claims Kiran. Stop claiming and start demonstrating.]]My reply :- My friend you didn’t read my reply. The proof is with you and not me. God is a personal experience which I have said from the beginning. So try your best to experience God.

I will leave you a demonstration of how this is done from my point of understanding and how i came to experience God. I hope it works for you too (should you try it) Hinduism explains three ways to communicate with God.1] By action or Karma (deeds)2] Through knowledge or Jnana3] Devotion or Bhakti.

The way I personally experience God is by praying to him--devotion. My personal prayers have been answered under difficult circumstances. You might say they are just a coincidence or something else. If it happened once then I would agree, but numerous times is more than a coincidence. Since I worship Krishna I sit and repeat his name in my mind. As a Hindu we also have an image of God which I can look at and pray to. I could look at the symbol AUM (if no image is available) so it doesn’t have to be an image of a God. If someone can pray to God without an image then that is good also.To you it’s all going to sound very weird-- but that’s expected to someone who is not a Hindu. Its all natural to millions of Hindus who worship in this way daily. So I would instruct you to pray in this way so that you too can prove to yourself that God exist. Firstly take a bath, wear clean clothes, sit in a clean room where sound is nil or if you like play music which is peaceful, often incenses is a good way to make the atmosphere smell nice –although air fresheners are great in today’s time. Mediate on the name of God. If no name comes to you then simply take a deep breath (not very deep) and as you exhale you make the sound ‘Aum’. Keep stretching the name ‘AUM’ as long you are exhaling. Aum sounds like Home. Day by day as you begin to connect with God, you are surely to have experience of God. Talk to God. Ask God what ever you like but in a respectful way. Discuss whatever is in your mind because the answers will be given. No prayers ever go unheard. Three qualities or gunas are described in Hinduism. They are sattva, rajas and tamas. The three qualities –to put it the most simplest way are –Goodness, Passion, Darkness.They all exist within us and one is either dominant to the other or these emotions and qualities interchange at different times in different moods. We need to keep the sattva quality in dominance over others where possible. • Sattva is -- Purity, compassion, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, recognition, generosity, patience, kindness• Rajas -- Desire, attachment, possessiveness, hyperactivity, fear, nervousness, anxiety, aggressiveness, competitiveness, power, prestige, name and fame• Tamas -- Impurity, greed, anger, dullness, envy, jealousy, delusion, confusion, depression, stupor, unconsciousness, comaAnyway the point of mentioning them is that-- when we approach God-- we must do so with our best qualities of Goodness. With humility and love and peace. Jesus said:- "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' If you are unable to pray like this ie to seek the God; the proof you are looking for; and is still seeking some other ways; then I dont think I can show you because this is the one way I know that works for me so it would be foolish of me to tell you other ways that I haven’t tried. I dont know what other ways you have tried and Im not saying that this way is superior to any other ways either.When you experience what I experienced; make the judgement for you own self –God or no God. That was presented from a devotional point of view.

My apologies and this is my last post to everyone if you are able to tolerate it one last time.

I appreciate the apology, but it is unnecessary. You were not breaking the rules. What I told you was friendly help so that you could be better understood. You may take my advice or not without penalty. Neither choice will result in penalty.

Aaron123 this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles trying to give each other clever answers and secondly the moderators are not going to tolerate my inability to post correctly. I will off course read all your replies. Please accept my apologies for any replies that appeared arrogant or otherwise. It was nice discussing with you.

Well, several days later, after thinking this conversation has been dropped, I'm not sure I'm up for it again, but here goes...

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1]My reply:- My comment was made after you and others claimed you had already believed/prayed/searched a God. So in a way you had already believed in a God and Im not telling you anything different.

Further more –YES—you have to believe something exist if you are to search for it or prove of its existence.

What this tells me is that searching for god is an excerise in confirmation bias. (since I already believe in the existence of what I am searching evidence for)

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2]My reply:- [["egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" arguments]]So I should just ignore/overlook ‘your’ ego and anger because that argument has been put forward by many before me.

You do not know me. You are projecting ego and anger onto me.

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The difference between both is none. It exists and stops our progress towards God.

Whatever that means...

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No you are only angry at those who claim to worship a God rather than a God itself.

Again, projection.

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If I declare i am my fathers son then this is not ego. Its fact. If i claim I am divine beings special creation then that is fact and not ego.

Your father's existence can be verified. Fact of fatherhood can be determined thru DNA testing. The same cannot be said about your god. Your analogy is... poor, to say the least.

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If however i say you are NOT a special creation of the Divine then this is my ego.

Not being a special creation of divine is fact, not ego.

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If thats what you think worshippers are doing then the worshippers are obviously deluded.

Well, I can't argue here.

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3]My reply:- This is my summary of the arguments used by all of you so far and Im sorry you dont like it. I dont have that special posh name for it.

You all keep giving my side of the arguments some posh names (Logical fallacies, Special pleading, and strawman. Induality, I am agnostic atheists – Gnostic atheists –etc etc etc) . (I was surprised you didn’t have a posh name for [["egotisic atheist" and "angry at god atheist" –haha may be you do).

Sounds like your issue may be unfamiliarity with the terms in questions. You appear to think that words like "strawman", "special pleading" and "agnostic/gnostic" are buzz words designed to sound really fancy when they're not. I can tell you, those are real terms, and it's important that you learn them if you wish to debate people online (or face-to-face, for that matter). I'm not saying you should take a college seminar, but you can do some online research. Go ahead, take the time to learn these words. You'll be glad you did.

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4] My reply:- Flawed—I thought you were using the argument that because we are not all perfect, then it meant all those people had wrong idea about God and were just wrong to follow a God ie hence flawed in that respect.

Again to me it seemed you were just dismissing the intellect of everyone on the planet that exists or ever existed who believed in a God.

Yes "nobody's perfect"; but we are all working towards perfection and this is what Hinduism is partly about; hence re-incarnations.

Again, I don't understand why you have an issue with certain people (historial figures and gurus) simply being wrong about their religious beliefs.

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5] My reply:- I thought I had addressed this when I said about Jesus and the ‘Truth’.

Heaven's Gate --The same argument can be used about Santa clause. Some people (especially children) believe that Santa Clause exist because they have been convinced by stories about him. When he does not bring them their desired gifts they cry about it. Is there any chance that they were delusional?

People dying for Jesus is ‘perhaps’ in a way similar to people dying for some aliens.That is they believed with absolute faith --what was being told to them was the Truth.

In the case of the alien believers when the truth was proven untruth—they became disillusioned and committed suicide. In the case of believers of Jesus, they were forced to abandon their ways and they didn’t.

No, they did not commit suicide due to disillusionment, they did it because they thought that their souls would be taken up to a UFO.

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The story of Jesus was True to people, aliens were True for some people, Santa clause was true for some. So who believes in the ‘real’ Truth? They all believed in the what was ‘Truth’ for them from their knowledge at the time and place.

Heaven's Gate --According to the information they received and how they deciphered this information, they decided that this information was the Truth. When the story of aliens is put in such an intellectual way then some naturally were convinced it was the truth. Sometimes the press tells lies and we believe them, sometimes Government plays tricks with our minds about wars or about some alien area 51, even films convince us otherwise and its so easy to believe everything and anything. However these people committed suicide only when they found out the reality of their truth was lie.

Again, these people thought they really would go to a UFO. There was not a mass disillusionment going on.

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Children only cried when their truth did not come into reality ie did not receive the desired presents. The truth becomes untruth only when it was proven false.God has not been proven false.

God has not been proven true. That you cannot prove god true is far more important than proving god false.

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God was real at the dawn of time and today.Today people have not yet lost faith in Jesus. So he is still the Truth.

I'm confused. Are you arguing for hinduism or christainity? They can't both be true.

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Those who do give up believing in God, Im sure have numerous reasons to do so. But they only act according to their belief and not proof ie they have not proved that God did not exist.

I don't know if anyone pointed this out to you, but the non-believers are not under any burden to prove the non-existence of god. It's up to the believer to demostrate that god does exist. Thus far, you have not done this.

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Not finding a way to connect with God is not a reason to say he does not exist.

Not finding any reasonble evidence for god is a good enough reason to say he does not exist. Thus far, you only refered to the gods of hinduism and the god of christainity. What about all the other possible gods out there? Do you believe in the greek gods? If not, what reason do you have, since you didn't find a way to connect with them?

You said [[You need to demonstrate your claims Kiran. Stop claiming and start demonstrating.]]My reply :- My friend you didn’t read my reply. The proof is with you and not me. God is a personal experience which I have said from the beginning. So try your best to experience God.

Little boys and girls claim to have a "personal experience" with invisible friends (even Santa Claus). Your claim here is no different than superstition. Secondly, it assumes what you need to prove (namely that there is such a thing as "God"). Again, your "personal experience" is not proof for anyone (not even you), because personal experiences alone have been shown to be VERY unreliable. Why is your standard of evidence so low?

I will leave you a demonstration of how this is done from my point of understanding and how i came to experience God. I hope it works for you too (should you try it) Hinduism explains three ways to communicate with God.1] By action or Karma (deeds)2] Through knowledge or Jnana3] Devotion or Bhakti.

The way I personally experience God is by praying to him--devotion.

This is the logical fallacy called BEGGING THE QUESTION. You have ASSUMED there is a God even BEFORE starting to pray. That is absurd. Would I be correct if I just ASSUMED pink magic monkeys created everything 10 seconds ago?

Your method for separating fact from fiction is both flawed and hypocritical. Praying to what you think is a God, doesn't make it a God b/c you can easily be fooling yourself based upon your own presupposition.

If your interpretation of "answered prayer" is supposed to be proof of God, then is unanswered prayer proof that there is no God? Your alleged proof works both ways Kiran. Btw, evidence is NOT personal. It is demonstrable to others.

Since I worship Krishna I sit and repeat his name in my mind. As a Hindu we also have an image of God which I can look at and pray to. I could look at the symbol AUM (if no image is available) so it doesn’t have to be an image of a God. If someone can pray to God without an image then that is good also.To you it’s all going to sound very weird-- but that’s expected to someone who is not a Hindu. Its all natural to millions of Hindus who worship in this way daily.

And Christians, Muslims, and Jews say the same thing. So what. Saying something is so doesn't make it so.

So I would instruct you to pray in this way so that you too can prove to yourself that God exist.

There is no "prove to yourself". That sentence makes absolutely no sense. It is NONSENSE. If you have proved something then it is, by definition, demonstrable to others. What you have done is CONVINCED YOURSELF. Every religion does that. So what. All you're doing is practicing being gullible.

Firstly take a bath, wear clean clothes, sit in a clean room where sound is nil or if you like play music which is peaceful, often incenses is a good way to make the atmosphere smell nice –although air fresheners are great in today’s time. Mediate on the name of God. If no name comes to you then simply take a deep breath (not very deep) and as you exhale you make the sound ‘Aum’. Keep stretching the name ‘AUM’ as long you are exhaling. Aum sounds like Home. Day by day as you begin to connect with God, you are surely to have experience of God. Talk to God. Ask God what ever you like but in a respectful way. Discuss whatever is in your mind because the answers will be given. No prayers ever go unheard.

Sorry, didn't work. Feelings are not God. Btw, when you sat down to do this exercise you already ASSUMED god exists. You started with your conclusion. That is backwards. And it is lazy and dishonest.

Three qualities or gunas are described in Hinduism. They are sattva, rajas and tamas. The three qualities –to put it the most simplest way are –Goodness, Passion, Darkness.They all exist within us and one is either dominant to the other or these emotions and qualities interchange at different times in different moods. We need to keep the sattva quality in dominance over others where possible. • Sattva is -- Purity, compassion, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, recognition, generosity, patience, kindness• Rajas -- Desire, attachment, possessiveness, hyperactivity, fear, nervousness, anxiety, aggressiveness, competitiveness, power, prestige, name and fame• Tamas -- Impurity, greed, anger, dullness, envy, jealousy, delusion, confusion, depression, stupor, unconsciousness, comaAnyway the point of mentioning them is that-- when we approach God-- we must do so with our best qualities of Goodness. With humility and love and peace.

This is just more fallacious reasoning. Where is your rational mind? I mean, the same one you use to determine if a salesman is lying to you! You say, "When we approach God..." No, STOP! You haven't demonstrated there's a God. You just keep ASSUMING IT. But you can't assume your position. You need to provide evidence and demonstration. Otherwise there is no sound reason to think your claims are any different than any other superstition/fantasy/credulity.

Jesus said:- "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

We'll set aside how you think you know what Jesus said (cause you are gullible). I don't care what Jesus supposedly said, what Krishna said, what Buddha said, or anyone else. If something is wrong, it's wrong. I don't care who said it. You are choosing to pick and choose pieces of the bible to believe (b/c they tickle your ears and agree with your assumptions). Why? Why do you keep assuming your position is true?

If you are unable to pray like this ie to seek the God; the proof you are looking for; and is still seeking some other ways; then I dont think I can show you because this is the one way I know that works for me so it would be foolish of me to tell you other ways that I haven’t tried.

Every religion always retreats back into "personal experience", which can't be tested, can't be falsified, or cannot be demonstrated. Do you know who also does this? All of the other superstitious dumb-dumbs in the world! Your "method" is flawed. It gives us no reliable way to determine fact from fiction.

I'll ask you what I ask most religious people: Do you actually care whether or not your beliefs are true? If so, you're not showing it.

I dont know what other ways you have tried and Im not saying that this way is superior to any other ways either.When you experience what I experienced; make the judgement for you own self –God or no God. That was presented from a devotional point of view.

"Devotional"? Oh, so you were DEVOTED to the religion your parents raised you in long ago. That's the same as every religion, but it doesn't help anyone to accurately determine what is true from what is false.

You need to stop practicing CREDULITY and start getting rational and honest. [/quote]

Hello Anfauglir this is going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles.....

Yes, you are, aren't you. Perhaps because you like to twist and turn and redefine words and avoid the consequences of what you say.

You said:

Quote from: kiran

this was the only Truth available to them so those people were right

I pointed out to you that they were NOT right. They were wrong. They thought they were right, sure - but they were wrong.

I asked you to retract your statement. You replied:

Quote from: kiran

.....go back in time when everyone was saying ‘the world is flat’, the sun is going around the earth’. I think it would be hard to deny otherwise, unless you had better proof, at that time. So in those days this was their truth. (Today we know its nonsense.) But we have to keep the time and state of mens mind at that time.

A very weasel-worded way of saying that you agree with me, without having to come right out and admit you were wrong - that they were NOT right in what they believed. But that's not the important point:

Quote from: Anfauglir

Fact is, they were wrong. Wrong for good reason, perhaps, but still wrong. Because if you are going to suggest that "the only Truth available to them (meant) those people were right", then I expect you to agree that I am right when I say "there is no god". Literally. I expect you to say "Anfauglir is right when he says there is no god", or retract that nonsense you posted above.

You said:

Quote from: kiran

I agree that you may believe ‘there is no God’. This is your perceived truth but not mine. I cannot agree with your truth when I have experienced God? You are only making your belief into the truth because you cant prove God by your own faith because you have not been able to see, hear or experience God which many of us have.

...and not only missed the point, but COMPLETELY contradicted what you said before. You CAN'T bring yourself to agree with my statement because you "know better" - which is fine. But that position flat out contradicts the position you took before, which is intellectually dishonest.

Let me lay it out for you.

Men in 1200 (say). "The sun goes round the earth". Were they right or wrong?Anfauglir in 2103. "There is no god." Am I right or wrong?

If you cannot give the same answer to the two questions, then you need to explain why not. I have no problem if you say "right" for both answers. I have no problem if you say "wrong" for both answers. But you are trying to give different answers to those two questions, by dramatically shifting your argument between the two, and that simply won't wash.

And learn to quote. It's easy to do, it's courteous to others, and makes it FAR easier to follow conversations.....or is that last the reason you avoid doing it?

Kiran,I don't believe for one second that you have decided to stop posting here merely due to the moderators. Like many religious people who come here, you have decided to stop posting because you are losing the battle. Your arguments for God are irrational, illogical, and just plain credulous. Perhaps you should get honest with yourself and stop being so closed-minded and arrogant. Face the fact that you could be wrong about what you think you experienced. People interpret their experiences falsely all the time b/c those experiences are easily mistaken, and as a result they (like you) wind up believing false things. Until you become open to the possibility that you are mistaken you will be blocking yourself from discovering truth.

Astreja this is probably going to be my last reply because I believe we are just going round in circles...

Yes, we are talking past each other. I am, however, going to sum up a couple of My points regarding your arguments.

First and foremost, I disagree vehemently with your interpretation of what is real and what is not real. An entity should not magically "poof" into or out of existence depending on who believes in it. That doesn't work with gravity. It doesn't work with tables. Why should it work with gods?

I am not inclined towards acts of religious worship and devotion. I have been this way all My life. At best I would be pretending to worship, and knowing that I was pretending.

I also hate to waste time that I could be spending in a more productive manner. Given a choice between praying to a god and playing My clarinet, the clarinet wins 100% of the time. I'm vastly more likely to "worship" a C# minor arpeggio than to worship Krishna.

Finally, I don't think you realize quite how many logical fallacies you're still using in your arguments. Burden of proof is still 100% yours, as you are the one making the positive claim (that your god exists). Number of believers is irrelevant to the truth of the matter. Special pleading that vampires and witches are false but gods are real. If this is the kind of shoddy thinking that your religious beliefs have inspired, I want no part of it.

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I have prayed to God that God shows himself to you and if you will receive him with the right frame of mind then he will show himself.

I am not even going to attempt to alter My frame of mind to accommodate your prayer. I predict that the prayer shall fail, and that there's nothing either you or your alleged god can do about it.

You know its so difficult to write the right words and sentences without offending or accusing anyone of anything. But despite my best efforts, Im sure my words, tone of language may have been misinterpreted and caused offence, hurt, annoy someone/everyone. If I have said something bluntly then it was never personal. Looking back i think I could have given better answers but its done now .....

I think this conversation has gone long enough because as I said we are just trying to give each other smart answers and the bottom line is i cant prove God to you straight away. .I can continue with this conversation but I am involved in another ‘project’ at work which requires more of my time.Im sorry that many of your questions remains unanswered.

Median I cant believe you even wrote that Im stopping because Im loosing the battle.

I didn’t know I was in some kind of a competition or a fight. We are merely discussing.

Im not even trying to convert you or force you or prove my way is the only way.Many times over I have said I cant prove God to you and so i dont have anything to prove.My claim to God is my experience and you all need to understand that.By the way the moderators don’t mind my inability to post correctly so I could spend more time talking to you all, but I don’t think anything will come of it.

I do take on board all of the points and questions and links you have made and others have made. Im not going to ignore them, but at this point o time Im not capable of giving a valid answer to them all with my limited knowledge.

Aaaron This argument that you cant search for God because then that would mean you are accepting god exist is wrong. When we look for clues of aliens we just assume that they may exist and don’t really know that they exist.We look for ghosts knowing they may exist and not because we know they exist.You cna therefore look for a God knowing he may exist and not because you know he exist. In my case God already exist for me so no proof is needed for my self. Well I have had enough proof in my lifetime to not believe in a God.

Similarly I have given instructions on how to find God. It’s a systematic approach and you can ignore it or try it.

As to What about all the other possible gods out there? Ive already explained all that in various replies to others. I think i was talking to too many people at once and thoughts got lost as to who said what and who im supposed to say to.

Everyone worships according to their level of intellectKrishna says ‘people worship him with different names and different forms, but in the end they all worship Me.’So people worship God according to their level of understanding of God, so it makes no difference about Odin or Thor or Zeus or Jesus or Indra or others. All think they worship a God and they do.

I also said God is a personal experience and unless you look God for yourself then I cant supply him in a test tube for you.

AnfauglirIm still right and youre still wrong . You just need to see where my logic is coming from. And dont take offence Im not being arrogant

Astreja

[[I don't think you realize quite how many logical fallacies you're still using in your arguments. ]]Hehe Im just glad they are logical. We have to laugh at ourselves ...

I said [[I have prayed to God that God shows himself to you.....]]You replied [[I am not even going to attempt to alter My frame of mind to accommodate your prayer. I predict that the prayer shall fail, and that there's nothing either you or your alleged god can do about it.]]

Median I cant believe you even wrote that Im stopping because Im loosing the battle.

I didn’t know I was in some kind of a competition or a fight. We are merely discussing.

Im not even trying to convert you or force you or prove my way is the only way.Many times over I have said I cant prove God to you and so i dont have anything to prove.My claim to God is my experience and you all need to understand that.By the way the moderators don’t mind my inability to post correctly so I could spend more time talking to you all, but I don’t think anything will come of it.

I do take on board all of the points and questions and links you have made and others have made. Im not going to ignore them, but at this point o time Im not capable of giving a valid answer to them all with my limited knowledge.

If you cannot provide a valid and sound answer then your conclusion regarding your alleged "experience" should be that you DO NOT KNOW what the experience is or means. You should not be saying it is God. I don't care if you are saying your way is "the only way" or not. You are making claims that are unsubstantiated. Your alleged "experience" is exactly what is in question (just like all claimed religious experiences of any other religion). As I've stated elsewhere, religions cannot all be right but they CAN all be wrong.

Regarding "competition", whether you like it or not, you are competing in the marketplace of ideas. And when you provide nothing but irrational arguments in an attempt to support an interpretation of an alleged experience you think you had, then there is no reason to accept that interpretation as true. If you do not care whether your beliefs are true then just say so and this conversation is over. If you do care, the you certainly are not showing it. I, on the other hand, DO care whether or not my beliefs are actually true (which is why I promote critical thinking and rational skepticism). Relying upon personal interpretations of alleged personal experiences is UNRELIABLE for separating fact from fiction - and that is what you are missing. You are practicing credulity (and likely confirmation bias), and that is something that many of us are unwilling to engage in.

Now, it doesn't really matter to me whether or not you have said "I can't prove God to you". If you can't demonstrate this alleged "thing" (which I say is incoherent) then you are relying solely upon your own self-diagnoses (i.e. - personal interpretation), which is highly questionable and fallible, and thus you shouldn't be believing in it!

You misunderstand "logical fallacy," Kiran. They indicate weaknesses in one's argument, not strengths. Short definition: A logical fallacy is a way of phrasing an argument such that it appears superficially correct but in reality is logically invalid. Such a fallacy does not make the argument automatically wrong, but it's insufficient to make it right.

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I think you’re going to be first to see God

I think you're wrong, unless of course I happen to *be* that god, in which case I've seen Myself in the mirror for quite a few years now.

Aaaron This argument that you cant search for God because then that would mean you are accepting god exist is wrong.

You were the one that said "you have to believe something exist if you are to search for it or prove of its existence". That is a statement that, in any other context, you'd know to be wrong. Finding evidence for something does not depends on whenever you believe it to be true or not. Either it exists, or it doesn't.

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When we look for clues of aliens we just assume that they may exist and don’t really know that they exist.

There's a fair amount of reasons to assume that aliens are possible. We know that it's possible for life to exist (ourself), we know it's possible for life to develop technology, including spaceflight (ourself), we know it's possible to try and send messages on spaceprobes (ourself). We're aware of the existence of other planets in other solor systems. There are billions of solor systems in this galaxy, it's not inconceivable that at least a handful of them might contain life. Whenever they're similar to us is a different question, as well the issue of being able to communicate with them (at least at this point in time).

However, things like UFOs and alien abduction are examples of people following poor or nonexistence evidence.

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We look for ghosts knowing they may exist and not because we know they exist. You cna therefore look for a God knowing he may exist and not because you know he exist.

There are a lot of things that "may exists", such as mermaids, genies, and talking ponies, but unless we have evidence for their existence, there is no reason to look for them or assume that they do exist. The key word here is evidence, and right now, none has been provided for god.[1] I'm not sure if that was made clear before, but there is a fine line between "he may exist", and "there is evidence of his existence".

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In my case God already exist for me so no proof is needed for my self. Well I have had enough proof in my lifetime to not believe in a God.

What does "exist for me" means? I get the impression it's something like "I think he exists, that's good enough for me!" Is that right? If so, that's poor thinking. The existence or nonexistence of something does not, nor should it, depends on whenever you think it does.

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Similarly I have given instructions on how to find God. It’s a systematic approach and you can ignore it or try it.

Summery? I don't really feel like going through the thread again.

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As to What about all the other possible gods out there? Ive already explained all that in various replies to others. I think i was talking to too many people at once and thoughts got lost as to who said what and who im supposed to say to.

Again, summery?

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Everyone worships according to their level of intellectKrishna says ‘people worship him with different names and different forms, but in the end they all worship Me.’So people worship God according to their level of understanding of God, so it makes no difference about Odin or Thor or Zeus or Jesus or Indra or others. All think they worship a God and they do.

I also said God is a personal experience and unless you look God for yourself then I cant supply him in a test tube for you.

Right now, what I get of this is that god is the same as someone's imaginary friend. An imaginary friend is "a personal experience", you have to have one yourself to understand it, and there is no way to prove that your imaginary friend is real. From this, I can't see how god is any different.

Men in 1200 (say). "The sun goes round the earth". Were they right or wrong?Anfauglir in 2103. "There is no god." Am I right or wrong?

If you cannot give the same answer to the two questions, then you need to explain why not. I have no problem if you say "right" for both answers. I have no problem if you say "wrong" for both answers. But you are trying to give different answers to those two questions, by dramatically shifting your argument between the two, and that simply won't wash.

And learn to quote. It's easy to do, it's courteous to others, and makes it FAR easier to follow conversations.....or is that last the reason you avoid doing it?

AnfauglirIm still right and youre still wrong . You just need to see where my logic is coming from. And dont take offence Im not being arrogant

You are being incredibly arrogant.You still haven't bothered to learn to quote. How arrogant is that? To enter someone's "house", and refuse to abide by their simple rules?And you are being incredibly arrogant by not even trying to answer my question.

If you are not arrogant, you will answer the question, and explain why your answers are different.

Men in 1200 (say). "The sun goes round the earth". Were they right or wrong?Anfauglir in 2103. "There is no god." Am I right or wrong?

On June 18 I ended up in hospital and am just recovering at home. I wont try to respond to any posts now as its been such a long time.However I did want to say all the very best to you all and I didn’t want you to think I was suddenly dismissing any comments and question, although I did say my previous posts were my last. Thank you all for your time. I now reflect on the new me that’s just come out of hospital and reflect on the meaning of life in a new light. This really is the last post. Perhaps oneday I might talk to you in some other topic that I might comment on. But I need to recover my health first. Cheers.

I'm glad you're thanking us, because it now appears that all our time spent with you have been wasted. All that engagement, all that thought and effort we've put in.....and your response is "well, I'm not going to answer any more". Faire enough, your choice. But.....

Perhaps oneday I might talk to you in some other topic that I might comment on.

And why should we bother to read it, if you do? Seriously, why? You've demonstrated that you are quit happy to leave in the middle of a discussion when you don't like the way it is going, so why on earth would anyone choose to engage with you on any other topic? Wouldn't you just leave in the middle again?

On June 18 I ended up in hospital and am just recovering at home. I wont try to respond to any posts now as its been such a long time.However I did want to say all the very best to you all and I didn’t want you to think I was suddenly dismissing any comments and question, although I did say my previous posts were my last. Thank you all for your time. I now reflect on the new me that’s just come out of hospital and reflect on the meaning of life in a new light. This really is the last post. Perhaps oneday I might talk to you in some other topic that I might comment on. But I need to recover my health first. Cheers.

Sky, in another thread we have been examining how god does essentially organises things the way he wants, regardless of our desires or prayers. On that basis, would you say that god arranged Kiran's hospital stay?

Sky, in another thread we have been examining how god does essentially organises things the way he wants, regardless of our desires or prayers. On that basis, would you say that god arranged Kiran's hospital stay?

All of God's powers and intentions are of a Spiritual nature. The physical condition we currently exist in is an abomination to His nature, even when out of the hospital sitting on a big soft pillow with a cool drink.