Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens Topic

Mike, you keep running in circles with your argument. You clearly just like to argue to argue. Brady has won with all those guys. All of those guys were either crap or average WR's/TE's and Brady still won and had good offensive #'s with them.

As I illustrated, several of these "crap to average" WR/TE had better years away from Brady. Maybe they are "crap to average". But they're better with someone other than Brady throwing them the ball. Brady isn't elevating the play of anyone but Wes Welker it seems.

Branch was a pretty good WR. A #2 on most teams, and on a team with a great passing attack, you would think #2 at best, maybe a #3 on some teams. His best year on Seattle, he was Hasselback's 2nd option, and they weren't known as a great offense. Besides him, before Welker/Moss, Brady didnt have a lot to work with. I suppose it's an opinion, but I compared the weapons Brady had with the weapons Manning and Brees had, and I feel he had worse weapons to work with, and still performed very well. When he got weapons that everyone agrees were better than the Chris Givens and Troy Browns of the world, his numbers became elite, and actually passed Peyton's.

As far as Colston is concerned, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thinks anyone Brady had before Welker is better than Colston.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/17/2013 10:26:00 AM (view original):As I illustrated, several of these "crap to average" WR/TE had better years away from Brady. Maybe they are "crap to average". But they're better with someone other than Brady throwing them the ball. Brady isn't elevating the play of anyone but Wes Welker it seems.

That's fine, and my initial argument wasn't that Brady is elevating the WRs play. At least that wasn't my intention. My point is that Brady did more with less. He put up great numbers, and was the leader of teams that won the Super Bowl 3 times.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/17/2013 10:31:00 AM (view original):Yeah, Moss had no career until he arrived at NE. Welker had a bazillion catches in college and 67 in MIA. Branch was comparable in SEA.

Wiggins was better when he left NE for MN.

I missed on Fauria in CAR but he was better in SEA

I've already said, early on, that Brady deserves a lot of credit for NE success. But you guys are acting like it was Brady and a bunch of slugs. It wasn't.

He didn't have the weapons other teams with great QBs had. That's what I'm arguing. I don't think there was one receiver pre-Welker/Moss that would be a #1 on more than half the teams in the NFL. Maybe 2/3 of them.

And biz, again, you've said a lot without actually saying anything. I've given actual information, and you've given your misguided opinion.

I gave incredibly specific arguments with examples to back them up. That's called actual information, not misguided opinion.

You didn't. You said he's constantly had an amazing offensive line, and I think you're overhyping that. You said he had fantastic weapons his whole career, but you haven't named them in the period where he was part of 3 Super Bowl winning teams, and putting up great offensive numbers.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/17/2013 10:31:00 AM (view original):Yeah, Moss had no career until he arrived at NE. Welker had a bazillion catches in college and 67 in MIA. Branch was comparable in SEA.

Wiggins was better when he left NE for MN.

I missed on Fauria in CAR but he was better in SEA

I've already said, early on, that Brady deserves a lot of credit for NE success. But you guys are acting like it was Brady and a bunch of slugs. It wasn't.

Moss had an amazing career before....but he sucked for several years before Brady....then he set records while with him. Then turned to crap after.

Now, you're giving college stats as to why Welker is/was amazing. How'd those stats work out for Ryan Leaf and Tebow. Or the billion of WR's the Detroit drafted years ago?

Fauria was not that good in SEA. He basicall had the same stats in NE (averaged less yards, but more TD's in NE).

I'm not acting like he had a bunch of slugs....but i'm not saying he had world beaters either. Branch and Brown were above average WR's in the NFL. #2 on most teams bar none....and Gaffney to a lesser extent. I'm saying that these were Brady's #1 WR's for years...and he still won 3 Superbowls and put up great #'s....albeit not like post 2007 #'s...but still great #'s.

Moss descended into suck before he left New England. Moss's production was always about whether he cared to play at the time or not. He caught a lot of TDs from Brady that first year, but other than that, there's nothing to distinguish his production with Brady from when he had Cunningham, Culpepper, or freakin' Jeff George tossing him the ball.

You said he's constantly had an amazing offensive line, and I think you're overhyping that.

In all the years Brady has played for NE going back to 2003, the team never ranked worse than 9th in the league in sacks per game allowed. Brady gets sacked an average of less than 2 times per game in every single year he's played back to 2003.

You said he had fantastic weapons his whole career, but you haven't named them in the period where he was part of 3 Super Bowl winning teams, and putting up great offensive numbers.

The defense won the first Super Bowl and he got the hype and the MVP and deserved neither (the team didn't deserve to win either what with the cheating and all, but that's another point). The defense wasn't shabby the other years, either.

The offensive line was always good as I've already said.

Brady has simply never made any plays another decent QB couldn't have made in the same exact situation.