Oh yeah, that backs up everything. Bill Bellicheck obviously didn't want him that bad, so you can stop now. I know you might not believe this, but he didn't see Tebow as Brady's heir apparent. Bellicheck would have used him inside the ten at QB and had him playing other positions, probably on offense and defense. He once had a DE that caught 11 TD passes.

Hopefully you are done deflecting. There evidence is square in your face, teams are motivated, whether conciously or unconciously, but perceptions, emotions and qualities that are unrelated to football. They are human and the draft is not a science. And NO, they don't always know what the are doing. I don't know what team you root for, but I know with 100% certainty that your team has made some very evaluations.

I agree with all of this so I don't know what you're arguing.

Especially at QB.

These are the intangibles.

Your point is that the Jets overrated Sanchez's intangibles and overlooked his tanglible deficineces because of that. I can buy that. But it's not that simple in his case.

Well because we're discussing him as a possible first round guy. Everyone's deficiencies are played up for good reason. Because missing on a QBOTF is a half a decade mistake for a team to recover from. You better well break down and nitpick deficiencies. Because it's those things that typically cause QBs to bust.

No QB is a finished product when they come into the league. But despite an average of just over 3 round 1 QBs a year being selected, about half of them are replaced within 5 years. Of course those players generally result in several miserable seasons and leave their fans in KC Chiefs purgatory.

Inaccuracy on NFL standard throws and bad decision making are HUGE red flags. I don't know how that can be characterized as 'played up'. Those are things that he must overcome and they are career ending deficiencies as they stand right now.

There are so many moving parts to playing the QB position. And being bad at any one of them can kill a career before it gets off the ground. As a raiders fan, I know you understand how just one or two liabilities can turn an otherwise great prospect into a grocery bagger before his rookie deal is done.

QBs aren't finished, and it's difficult to project how their strengths translate to the NFL game. Geno's NFL standard pass attempts are far and away the weakest aspect of his game. Certainly not on par with the top 4 QBs from last years' draft. He has a long road to hoe.

What? I didn't say that was your quote. That's a statement made earlier in the discussion you joined.

I understand everything your said, but you still haven't explained why those guys I mentioned were given the benefit of the doubt as compared to Gino. Gino will go in the first round, but this is AFTER several reports supposedly said he was not graded as a first rounder. I don't recall that being the case with the 4 others I mentioned.

Your point is that the Jets overrated Sanchez's intangibles and overlooked his tanglible deficineces because of that. I can buy that. But it's not that simple in his case.

But it's not just Sanchez. Christian Ponder??? I could not believe what I was hearing days before the draft when it was reported he would go in the first round. Someone mentioned no excuses for Geno. How many excuses were made for Jake "Clear his" Locker? Who even questioned Harrington? That's my point. The Geno hate is somewhat disturbing. I mean, to say publically and repeatedly that he is not even a first round QB? I'm sorry, but it's borderline disrespectful, especially when the QB position is valued as much as it it. Remember "It's a QB driven league." Christian Ponder??? Ponder that....

But it's not just Sanchez. Christian Ponder??? I could not believe what I was hearing days before the draft when it was reported he would go in the first round. Someone mentioned no excuses for Geno. How many excuses were made for Jake "Clear his" Locker? Who even questioned Harrington? That's my point. The Geno hate is somewhat disturbing. I mean, to say publically and repeatedly that he is not even a first round QB? I'm sorry, but it's borderline disrespectful, especially when the QB position is valued as much as it it. Remember "It's a QB driven league." Christian Ponder??? Ponder that....

This this this this this this this this this this this this this this

I wanna know what planet people can justify saying Blaine Gabbert, Jake Locker, and Christian Ponder as top 12 picks.

Geno's biggest problem is that he came a year after the easiest QB scouting job ever: Andrew Luck and RG3.

But it's not just Sanchez. Christian Ponder??? I could not believe what I was hearing days before the draft when it was reported he would go in the first round. Someone mentioned no excuses for Geno. How many excuses were made for Jack Locker? Who even questioned Harrington? That's my point. The Geno hate is somewhat disturbing. I mean, to say publically and repeatedly that he is not even a first round QB? I'm sorry, but it's borderline disrespectful, especially when the QB position is valued as much as it it. Remember "It's a QB driven league." Christian Ponder??? Ponder that....

If you evaluate the tape - he's not. Neither were Ponder and Locker. I agree with you there.

But the subtext are huge question marks about his intangibles. There are whispers that teams don't trust him as a leader in the locker room. His demeanor on the field was questionable at times.

Those other prospects, with just as flawed film, had top-notch intangibles.

I do not think Ponder and Locker were worth first-round picks. I said so at the time. But I don't think Smith is either.

It was a savy move to show how confidently he felt that he was better than those bums who were throws passes at receivers ankles. Gino Smith is not afraid of competition. And unlike Quinn, the media did not swoon over Smith as the #1 pick of the next year's draft. That's why Quinn's head got big. There is no parallel here.

most mocks had Geno as 1 pick, pre-Alex Smith trade. Including Scott's well respected mock. There was plenty of swooning.

most mocks had Geno as 1 pick, pre-Alex Smith trade. Including Scott's well respected mock. There was plenty of swooning.

I think what Black Bolt meant was that immediately after the 2012 draft, there was no swooning over Geno Smith, most of that was for Matt Barkley. Said swooning over Geno Smith did not really start until September. It really cooled down since then, but I believe his accuracy, athleticism and pocket presence warrants him being the top quarterback this year. Although a few intangibles of his worry me. In my next mock, I will have the Raiders pick him.
The NFL has turned into a league of haves and have-nots at the quarterback position. Occasionally a have-not team claws their way to a 10-6 record and a playoff spot, but loses quickly. A lot of those have-nots understand that you will go nowhere without a quarterback, so lately we have seen quarterbacks, who aren't really worth it, get pushed up. Some of them are pushed up in a bad way, while Locker, Gabbert and Ponder were pushed too high, Dalton and Kaepernick were stuck until the 2nd round. So it is not now, not ever, a perfect science.

most mocks had Geno as 1 pick, pre-Alex Smith trade. Including Scott's well respected mock. There was plenty of swooning.

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote. Brady Quinn was widely regarded to be the #1 pick in the draft after his junior year. In other words, the hype for him started the year prior. Obviously this didn't happen when Quinn showed his true colors his senior year.

Geno never had anything approaching that level of hype and to compare the two situations is a complete joke. Last year, Geno Smith wasn't on the radar. Matt Barkley was being hyped as the #1 pick. Even at the end of the season, there were some rankings that had him the #1 pick, but with absolutely NO hype whatsoever.

I think what Black Bolt meant was that immediately after the 2012 draft, there was no swooning over Geno Smith, most of that was for Matt Barkley. Said swooning over Geno Smith did not really start until September. It really cooled down since then, but I believe his accuracy, athleticism and pocket presence warrants him being the top quarterback this year. Although a few intangibles of his worry me. In my next mock, I will have the Raiders pick him.
The NFL has turned into a league of haves and have-nots at the quarterback position. Occasionally a have-not team claws their way to a 10-6 record and a playoff spot, but loses quickly. A lot of those have-nots understand that you will go nowhere without a quarterback, so lately we have seen quarterbacks, who aren't really worth it, get pushed up. Some of them are pushed up in a bad way, while Locker, Gabbert and Ponder were pushed too high, Dalton and Kaepernick were stuck until the 2nd round. So it is not now, not ever, a perfect science.

Correct. It was Matt Barkley followed by Landry Jones. Smith was not on the map. On a side note, IMO, Dalton went where he should have. Believe it or not, the Bengals were one of the teams that met with Geno.

Matt Ryan does not have a laser arm and he is doing just fine because he studies the game. Is there a huge difference between Barkley and Sam Bradford as prospects? Everyone loved Bradford as a 1st overall pick in 2010.

Barkley is being overlooked because he is another QB from USC. And he is just one example from this class. Brainless athletes like Vince Young and JaMarcus Russell were praised as top 5 picks and when a QB like Matt Barkley enters the draft he is not worth a 1st round pick.

Matt Ryan does not have a laser arm and he is doing just fine because he studies the game. Is there a huge difference between Barkley and Sam Bradford as prospects? Everyone loved Bradford as a 1st overall pick in 2010.

Barkley is being overlooked because he is another QB from USC. And he is just one example from this class. Brainless athletes like Vince Young and JaMarcus Russell were praised as top 5 picks and when a QB like Matt Barkley enters the draft he is not worth a 1st round pick.

After years of overhyped USC QBs, this is the case. Ryan didn't just study the game, he had incredible instincts for the position and was incredibly competitive. I didn't see Barkley play as much as Ryan, but Barkley will also be down graded because of the perception that benefited from the talent of his receivers.

Barkley did not have something the other USC QBs had: an elite defense to keep the game under control. And he seems to be much more mature and interested in the game than Leinart and Sanchez. Barkley is also coming with a ton of experience. I can't let the failure of past USC players stain the perception of Barkley. Each guy is a different QB, just like the current QB at Stanford won't be a 1st overall pick because of Andrew Luck.

Barkley did not have something the other USC QBs had: an elite defense to keep the game under control. And he seems to be much more mature and interested in the game than Leinart and Sanchez. Barkley is also coming with a ton of experience. I can't let the failure of past USC players stain the perception of Barkley. Each guy is a different QB, just like the current QB at Stanford won't be a 1st overall pick because of Andrew Luck.

Well, I won't argue much with that. My opinion from the beginning was that Barkley and Smith are the only first round QBs.

Might have said it already but the good thing about this class is that there's a ton of experience. Smith, Barkley, Jones, Dysert, Manuel, Wilson, Nassib, and Glennon amongst others all have 30+ starts, and then even a junior like Bray is close.

I know the Raiders already interviewed Barkley and he must be in consideration for the #3 pick. They suffered after taking a guy that was all arm and no brain and this is their chance to take a QB that cares about the game. Palmer is being asked to restructure his contract and it's no guarantee he will be on the roster. I think Barkley would be a very good option for them. They need a clean prospect like Matt Ryan to help this new regime turn things around (on and off the field) and I think Barkley gets pretty close. You can bet on a superior arm talent like Tyler Bray but it's hard to buy him as a dedicated professional who will lead a team and stay out of trouble.

I know the Raiders already interviewed Barkley and he must be in consideration for the #3 pick. They suffered after taking a guy that was all arm and no brain and this is their chance to take a QB that cares about the game. Palmer is being asked to restructure his contract and it's no guarantee he will be on the roster. I think Barkley would be a very good option for them. They need a clean prospect like Matt Ryan to help this new regime turn things around (on and off the field) and I think Barkley gets pretty close. You can bet on a superior arm talent like Tyler Bray but it's hard to buy him as a dedicated professional who will lead a team and stay out of trouble.

I'd pretty much take the gas pipe if we drafted Barkley. He is in no way worthy of the #3 pick regardless of how clean he is. My guess is that Reggie is doing his due diligence in interviewing him and Geno. Also, I think there is a fair chance Barkley would be considered if the Raiders are able to trade down.