NO, God doesn't need to hide himself. Allow me to take you back to the beginning and show you where man stands with God.God created a perfect man and perfect woman (Adam and Eve). They were made to live forever with never facing a physical death, in the Garden of Eden. He tells them to eat of any fruit of the trees but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You see, they were naked and were not ashamed because they didn't know good or evil, they were in a perfect creation. Then comes the serpent (Satan) which means in Hebrew "the enemy and adversary". and you know the rest. Now sin has entered a perfect world. A holy righteous God told Adam that he would die if he ate of that tree. Now man has sinned and must now face a physical death. Whereby sin entered into the world by one man, all have sinned and come short of the glory God. This is where all mankind stands now before God. A sinner in need of a Saviour, and God has provided by the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall nor perish but have everlasting life. God has never failed man, man has always failed God, and God has always made a way for us. The love of God goes beyond human comprehension.

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The word of God cuts to the bone convicting of sin, through our God-given conscience

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So if we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.

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That little voice in the skull is the conscience that divides right from wrong. No science in that.

So we agree this conscience you posted of earlier knowing of right and wrong are a gift from Satan? Morality thus would be a gift from Satan because without him we wouldn’t know good from evil. And do you see apes as a perfect creation? Better than man? Also before the fall of Adam was he incapable of doing wrong or did he just not know what he did was wrong? How is an ignorant person perfect?

A righteous and holy God can accept nothing less than perfection into his kingdom. So how can mere man full of sin be accepted. By what Jesus did at Calvary, he suffered, bled and died there for our sins to be washed away. You see, when God sees a born again Christian, who is also full of sin and imperfections, he doesn't see us, he sees the blood of Jesus on us and that makes us perfect. A bride fit for the bridegroom, as the Bible says.

I do not need the blood of a son of an evil god to make Me "perfect." For that matter, I don't need "perfection" and I want nothing to do with a god that cannot tolerate imperfection.

Hello Astreja, you have been nice and straight forward with me. More so than anyone else on this website. I hope you understand what is being said here, and take it as one caring person to another. The Bible says sin is what separates us from God. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me. The created can't say to the creator, what are you doing, I want it this way. But then again they can, at the cost of eternal separation from God, and I think you know what that means.

The Bible says sin is what separates us from God. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me.

That's fine for people who believe what the Bible says, but I don't happen to be one of those people. A pantheist might say that the universe itself is divine, and that there is no separation. A panentheist, on the other hand, would see the universe as being saturated with god-ness, and that the divine extends beyond the universe. A polytheist might ask, "Which god?" A Sufi might say "There are as many paths to God as there are souls on Earth." Meanwhile, I'm working on the problem of why science can't find any physical traces of gods and wondering what they could possibly be, if not matter or energy.

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The created can't say to the creator, what are you doing, I want it this way. But then again they can, at the cost of eternal separation from God, and I think you know what that means.

If I'm understanding you correctly here, humanity's supposed "free will" is constrained by the will of your god, who is in essence saying "My way or the highway."

What I do not understand is the fixation on "Figure out what I want and do it while you're alive, O mortals, because I'm not giving you any more chances -- Whatever you choose, it's forever." That's a rather draconian way of doing things, and puts humanity at the mercy of whatever religions and religious leaders are prominent in their part of the world.

If people's eternal souls were actually at stake here (which I doubt, but I'll play along for the moment), one would hope that a god would use something more effective than the Bible to get the point across. It's a real dog's breakfast of ideas, drawing from Sumerian, Akkadian, Canaanite, Egyptian and Greek myth and poetry, with numerous missing originals and a theological divide between Jesus and Paul of Tarsus regarding the validity of the Old Testament laws in the New Testament era.

I don't see any way to reconcile the ideas in the Bible with reality, so I've cast My vote for reality. I'd love to get a real, live Talking Snake™, 'tho (Genesis 3).

Hello G-Roll, although no apology is needed, i can see by doing so you are a gentleman yourself.

I have no enemy in man, but I declare unto all, Satan is my only enemy. He is the great deceiver, the adversary to everything pure and good. He comes only to steal, kill and destroy. The Bible says because he was able to deceive man in the Garden of Eden, and introduce sin into the world he has the legal right to walk to and fro upon the earth seeking whom he may devour. But I thank my God I am off limits to the old boy.In the book of Job God told Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, who hates evil and loves that which is good. Satan replied, yes, but you have put a hedge around him and I can't get to him. And such are all that trust in Christ.

Hello G-Roll, although no apology is needed, i can see by doing so you are a gentleman yourself.

Why thank you.

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I have no enemy in man, but I declare unto all, Satan is my only enemy. He is the great deceiver, the adversary to everything pure and good. He comes only to steal, kill and destroy. The Bible says because he was able to deceive man in the Garden of Eden, and introduce sin into the world he has the legal right to walk to and fro upon the earth seeking whom he may devour. But I thank my God I am off limits to the old boy.In the book of Job God told Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, who hates evil and loves that which is good. Satan replied, yes, but you have put a hedge around him and I can't get to him. And such are all that trust in Christ.

That is all well and nice but has nothing to do with what I asked.

You mentioned also earlier that the introduction of sin killed Adam and Eve. However according to the story of Genesis there where two significant trees in Eden. The tree of life and the tree of good and evil. Adam and Eve were allowed to eat anything but the tree of knowledge. The tree of life gave them immortality correct? When booted from Eden they no longer got to eat from the tree of life. So what killed them was no more magic apples. I don’t see how the concept of sin causes death when a simple explanation of the tree of life is right there.Sin is a crazy concept to me and I honestly doubt it can be explained in any way to make since. You are welcome to try if you wish but I fear it will be a waste of time. If you and I were to discuss/debate sin I fear we would both be wasting precious moments of life

A righteous and holy God can accept nothing less than perfection into his kingdom. So how can mere man full of sin be accepted. By what Jesus did at Calvary, he suffered, bled and died there for our sins to be washed away. You see, when God sees a born again Christian, who is also full of sin and imperfections, he doesn't see us, he sees the blood of Jesus on us and that makes us perfect. A bride fit for the bridegroom, as the Bible says.

That people believe this stuff astonished me. That your world has to be so small, and so perfectly explained as real, serves no purpose other than to satisfy your ego. Thinking that people are bad because the misinformed duo blew it takes reality out of the picture and makes fixing our problems that much harder.

Perfect gods who create imperfect world, even if by proxy, aren't quite as perfect as you want them to be. If he is real and Eden was real and Adam and Eve were real, he placed the entire fate of mankind in the hands of a newbie, and he didn't even tell Eve too. Rather, he depended on a guy to pass accurate information on to his wife, something that is still hard to do today.

He didn't think it through, his omnipotence was insufficient and a bat-shit crazy snake spent more time talking than your god did.

Again, if he is real, we either have the outcome he wanted in the first place (he had to see it coming and be happy with it) or he's just no good at his job and he overlooked a couple of details. Again if real, why he didn't start over again and send Noah and the family permanently skinny dipping along with the rest of us, I don't know. Again, his omnipotence should have been a bit more informative than it appears to have been.

Christians who swallow the story are hell-bent on keeping it simple and keeping it stupid, and are therefore tasked with the job of trying to make an idiotic story appear to be full of wisdom and stuff. Since there is none, you guys have to go through amazing contortions to make the tale seem plausible.

That we can't even get any two of you to tell the same story is revealing. That each of you has customized it a bit with your own versions regarding which parts were the most important should be a clue to each and every one of you that this stuff wasn't real. But instead, you all go along on your merry way, mesmerized by your various inaccurate versions of the truth, and doing christian yoga by patting yourselves on the back.

We're not impressed. Live with it. Because a perfect god who can't do it right has issues. And a non-existent god who didn't do a thing is much more likely. Well, only a 100% more likely, but that's enough for me.

G-Roll my man, I just saw your post about Satan giving us a conscience. Satan never gives anything, he only takes. That's the difference between Satan and God. We are not ignorant of his devices, he only comes to steal, kill and destroy. Through the lust of the flesh Satan gets us in all kind of messes designed to separate us from God and then destroy us. He's doing a very good job too. The next time you see an alcoholic begging for money to buy another drink, you are looking at Satans handy work. When you see families devastated by divorce, Satan has been there, stealing the children. Jesus told his disciples he saw Satan fall from heaven as lightning, and beware on earth for he is come for you. We have no idea how serious sin is. or neither what's at stake.

I think we all know what is at stake. The concept of sin is just as important if not more important than the Jesus figure himself to Christianity. Without sin there is no Christianity because there is no need for Jesus to be crucified. If sin doesn’t cause death no one really needs to fear it, sin needs to be horrible. Yet an easy explanation about Adams loss of immortality that I mentioned earlier about the tree of life is right there for us all. Also Satan is the easy scapegoat to place this horrible weird concept upon us poor innocent (at the time) humans. Yet NO ONE even considers the fact that morality based on the concept of good and evil is because Adam (who cares about Eve?) ate the freaking apple. Without sin Satan is the hero of the story of Genesis. He is the George Washington standing against a tyrant. It is the snake that gave us dominion over the other animals because the wisdom made us more/is what separates us from the animal kingdom. If you ask me that is a far better gift than just naming creatures.So until a Christian gives me reason to think otherwise when asked what my morality is based upon and I know the answer they want is Christianity. I will happily answer Christianity with the wisdom gifted to us all by Satan.

I am not knocking you for not answering my question. I believe the answer I don’t know is always the best if one doesn’t know. Lol it's an answer I deploy more than you probably. Just please be careful with posts that could be seen as preaching.

G-Roll, have you ever done something and said to yourself, I shouldn't have done that? That's your God given conscience, telling you it was wrong. It's a God given defense mechanism to keep you from sin. Have you ever thought back on some occasion in your life and remembered something and thought, man I wish I hadn't done that. This time it's not your conscience, it's regret. Have you ever heard someone say my conscience has been bothering me and I have to make this right. That is the conscience at work. The bible says the conscience can be seared with a hot iron. That's when you continue to do the same sin over and over and over again. The conscience is seared and doesn't bother you anymore.

Ok, what is sin. The apostle James says it is to know to do right and do it not. When you put that bottle of whiskey to your lips, you know it's not right, you have sinned. When your wife needs help in the kitchen and you know you should help her, but for some reason you choose not to, you have sinned.

So what's the big deal about sin? We all do it, right. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Not a physical death, this is speaking of the second death, eternal separation from God in hell. Remember when Adam sinned, sin came into the world and now we are all born in sin. There is none righteous, no not one. Now we have a sin debt we can't pay, all our righteousness is as filthy rags the Bible says. Why? Because nothing less than perfect can enter the Kingdom of God, and none of us are that. That's why Jesus went to the cross in our place, because we can't do it. Jesus can do it because he lived on this earth for 33 1/2 years and never sinned. He is not stained with sin as we are. He suffered the pain and humiliation of a death on the cross in our place. That's how much he loves you. Death on the cross was chosen by the Romans because it was the cruelest form of punishment known to man at that time. Sin is gruesome and ugly, and worst of all we have to answer for it. Jesus stood in the temple one day in front of thousands and lifted his hands to heaven and said, you who are thirsty come unto me and I will give you life everlasting.

I really enjoyed the conversations today. If I can help you in any way I will do my best. Thank you all for your replies and courtesy while doing so.I've been at it here since 5am, got to get some rest. I will pick up tomorrow on contradiction #3 for those who are following. Sorry I couldn't finish today but I was very busy with my work load and replies.

G-Roll, have you ever done something and said to yourself, I shouldn't have done that? That's your God given conscience, telling you it was wrong. It's a God given defense mechanism to keep you from sin. Have you ever thought back on some occasion in your life and remembered something and thought, man I wish I hadn't done that. This time it's not your conscience, it's regret. Have you ever heard someone say my conscience has been bothering me and I have to make this right. That is the conscience at work. The bible says the conscience can be seared with a hot iron. That's when you continue to do the same sin over and over and over again. The conscience is seared and doesn't bother you anymore.

Ok, what is sin. The apostle James says it is to know to do right and do it not. When you put that bottle of whiskey to your lips, you know it's not right, you have sinned. When your wife needs help in the kitchen and you know you should help her, but for some reason you choose not to, you have sinned.

So what's the big deal about sin? We all do it, right. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Not a physical death, this is speaking of the second death, eternal separation from God in hell. Remember when Adam sinned, sin came into the world and now we are all born in sin. There is none righteous, no not one. Now we have a sin debt we can't pay, all our righteousness is as filthy rags the Bible says. Why? Because nothing less than perfect can enter the Kingdom of God, and none of us are that. That's why Jesus went to the cross in our place, because we can't do it. Jesus can do it because he lived on this earth for 33 1/2 years and never sinned. He is not stained with sin as we are. He suffered the pain and humiliation of a death on the cross in our place. That's how much he loves you. Death on the cross was chosen by the Romans because it was the cruelest form of punishment known to man at that time. Sin is gruesome and ugly, and worst of all we have to answer for it. Jesus stood in the temple one day in front of thousands and lifted his hands to heaven and said, you who are thirsty come unto me and I will give you life everlasting.

You realize that there are other explanations that are far more plausible, more realistic and more useful, don't you.

Well, I know your answer, but I couldn't think of any other way to phrase it.

You see god, we see evolution and culture, genes and learned behavior.

Yours is simpler. Ours explains in more detail.

I, for one, would feel guilty if I agreed with you. We wouldn't want that now, would we.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.

G-Roll, have you ever done something and said to yourself, I shouldn't have done that? That's your God given conscience, telling you it was wrong. It's a God given defense mechanism to keep you from sin. Have you ever thought back on some occasion in your life and remembered something and thought, man I wish I hadn't done that. This time it's not your conscience, it's regret. Have you ever heard someone say my conscience has been bothering me and I have to make this right. That is the conscience at work. The bible says the conscience can be seared with a hot iron. That's when you continue to do the same sin over and over and over again. The conscience is seared and doesn't bother you anymore.

Yes that is my knowledge of good and evil. When did humans obtain this and what did god think of it?

Let's try scripture!8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die...”

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. (that’s an important part)Gen 34 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves...

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your fooduntil you return to the ground, since from it you were taken;for dust you are and to dust you will return.”20 Adam[c] named his wife Eve,[d] because she would become the mother of all the living.

21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

So there you have it. The bits and pieces in your bible that claim god didn’t want you to know of good and evil. Satan did and because of his "deception" human morality was born. I am running out of ways to repeat myself and growing tired of you apparently not reading what I type because you seem to be on repeat. So one last time... What makes you think god gave you the ability to know right from wrong?

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So what's the big deal about sin? We all do it, right. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Not a physical death, this is speaking of the second death, eternal separation from God in hell.

So your claim is that Jesus died on the cross for a metaphorical death?

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He is not stained with sin as we are.

Then Jesus wasn’t human if all humans are born with sin. What's the point of sacrificing an immortal who knows he is coming back?

G-Roll, I forgot to answer your other question about the trees in the garden.God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is the tree Satan deceived them into eating. They were eating already of the tree of life. It was for life eternal. When they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they were in sin, and God then put a flaming sword around the tree of life saying let us guard the tree of life lest they eat thereof and live forever. God told them if they ate of that tree they would die, so the tree of life was guarded until God took them out of the garden.So they couldn't live physically forever with sin, we see.Adam and Eve sold us out, it's that simple. I hope you have a better understanding of sin now with this post and the previous one. I will be glad to give you scripture on any of this if you like.

NO, God doesn't need to hide himself. Allow me to take you back to the beginning and show you where man stands with God.God created a perfect man and perfect woman (Adam and Eve). They were made to live forever with never facing a physical death, in the Garden of Eden. He tells them to eat of any fruit of the trees but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You see, they were naked and were not ashamed because they didn't know good or evil, they were in a perfect creation. Then comes the serpent (Satan) which means in Hebrew "the enemy and adversary". and you know the rest. Now sin has entered a perfect world. A holy righteous God told Adam that he would die if he ate of that tree. Now man has sinned and must now face a physical death. Whereby sin entered into the world by one man, all have sinned and come short of the glory God. This is where all mankind stands now before God. A sinner in need of a Saviour, and God has provided by the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall nor perish but have everlasting life. God has never failed man, man has always failed God, and God has always made a way for us. The love of God goes beyond human comprehension.

You stated the God couldn't have done the very things, like appearing, in order to not require the destruction of all flesh(genocide) in the old testament. Now you state your god doesn't need to be hidden.

You don't expect me to notice such evasiveness? We aren't your gullible fellow Christians. We actually think things through to their obvious conclusion; You just rethink things in order to maintain your delusion that the Christian god actually exists.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

G-Roll, I forgot to answer your other question about the trees in the garden.God commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is the tree Satan deceived them into eating. They were eating already of the tree of life. It was for life eternal. When they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they were in sin, and God then put a flaming sword around the tree of life saying let us guard the tree of life lest they eat thereof and live forever. God told them if they ate of that tree they would die, so the tree of life was guarded until God took them out of the garden.So they couldn't live physically forever with sin, we see.

Yeah the wages of sin is a spiritual death. So the death of Adam was caused by not eating from the tree of life. We agree?

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Adam and Eve sold us out, it's that simple

I disagree. Their actions made us human. Human as in more than a chimpanzee. Maybe you see Adam and Eve as people like us typing away on our thoughts on morality? I see two people who are not allowed to advance past a primitive state. Until they fall and become a superior species.

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God told them if they ate of that tree they would die, so the tree of life was guarded until God took them out of the garden.

This is why I am not an atheist that subscribes to the idea that god lied and Satan told the truth. Adam and Eve did physically die like god said. It’s a bit shady like a bad contract but it happened.

G-Roll, have you ever done something and said to yourself, I shouldn't have done that? That's your God given conscience, telling you it was wrong. It's a God given defense mechanism to keep you from sin.

Look...okay...I don't care how deluded you are...But we know what the conscience is, we know how it works, and we know that it is not some magical given gift.

When you see families devastated by divorce, Satan has been there, stealing the children.

A: some people divorce on purpose, and enjoy the separation for a better future.B: bad divorces come from a couple who really didn't look into the future and ended up hating each other/other stupid thing.C: no magical evil bad-guy steals the children, the couple determines who the children must stay with, and the count makes it so.

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

. Some of us refuse to change and begin to silence our conscience by saying there is no God. So yif we can say "God is imaginary" enough times, we can kill the conscience that declares God to all mankind.I'm a Christian. and that's my opinion.

...and that's all it is. And because you admit you cannot prove or demonstrate your god, you give me no more reason to believe you and your holy book over any of the thousands of others there have Ben throughout history.

Why should I believe in your Yahweh, when I know that Atum created the world.

Still waiting on a response to this. I know you will provide one, because you said this:

Jesus said the just shall live by faith. That statement alone will result in the majority of souls rejecting Christ. Jesus said the Gentiles (anyone that's not a Jew) will seek a sign, and there will not be one given, but the sign of Noah before the flood.Man has always wanted his way, and doesn't really care what the creator thinks. Man, through sin has always caused his own problems, and God keeps bailing us out even though we don't believe in him. God has drawn a line in the sand, just like Astreja said last night. It's my way or the highway. Jesus said broad is way and wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and narrow is the path that leads to life, and few there be that find it.

King Agga said Just shall live by faith. That statement alone will result majority souls rejecting King Agga. King Agga said non Ugagbuga worshipers will seek sign, and there will not one given, but sign of Nonabuah before the tidal wave.Man has always wanted his way, and doesn't really care what the creator, Ugabuga thinks. Man, through sin always caused own problems, and Ugabuga keeps bailing us out even though we don't believe in him. Ugabuga has drawn a line in sand, just like Astreja said last night. It's my way or highway. King Agga said broad is way and wide is gate that leads to destruction, and narrow is path that leads to life, and few there be that find it.

would you give it credence, or would you think it was just some gibbering primitive babbling on about their mythology?

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Hatter23, I have to be honest. I don't know what you are talking about, or where it came from. My quotes come from the Holy Bible. I wish you would make yourself clear on what you are saying, that way I could reply.

Hatter23, I have to be honest. I don't know what you are talking about, or where it came from. My quotes come from the Holy Bible. I wish you would make yourself clear on what you are saying, that way I could reply.

What I am say is some Volcano God worshiper quoting from his holy scrolls and you quoting from the holy Bible have the same amount of proof, the same intellectual weight, and are going to be treated by someone from that is not immersed in the culture the shaman/preacher is from will treat it the same.

If you want to show me wrong, do something that the Islander Shaman couldn't. Otherwise you are the same as him.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 12:20:52 PM by Hatter23 »

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

I've caught quite a bit of heat on the subject of the conscience. When actually I've only told the half of it. I thought from the onset I would leave this subject where it's at. But I feel my time here is nearing a close. This will be hard for some, but we're all adults, right.I have stated the conscience is a God-given trait to make you aware of the presence of sin. It works as a checkup, if you will, for the believer throughout day to day life. It says: don't do that.

Well, there's another purpose for the conscience. The Bible speaks many times and in various places about a Day of Judgement. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. In that day, many shall say Lord we didn't know, and God will say, your conscience bears witness of your sins, depart from me I never knew you

If you're gonna hang around here, charlie24, you need to adapt. Preaching doesn't work. We're after original thoughts, not hand-me-down stuff from whichever version of christianity you follow.

It doesn't do much good to talk about Jesus as if he were real when your listeners don't think he ever existed. Well, you can talk about him, but you need to keep in mind that it isn't doubt that you are facing, but rather our assumption that either he never existed or, that if he did, he was an ordinary human and the tales of his survival were greatly exaggerated.

You seem to be assuming that your given is our given too, but that we just don't like it. That we know there is a god but wish that weren't true. But I, as an atheist, have no reason whatsoever to think that there is any god, yours or otherwise, so I am not going to be wowed by that various preachy statements that you are offering up.

You need to find a different way to talk to us. Your holy bible is not holy to us. It doesn't impress. Proof that you actually think is a better approach.

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It isn't true that non-existent gods can't do anything. For instance, they were able to make me into an atheist.