This ofc will not be enough but it's a first step in acknowledging that 25man and 10man raid cannot really be compared and cannot compete between each other.

Ive been VERY vocal about this exact point since the day of Cata release... its taken Blizzard 2 years to finally admit that 10 and 25mans r actually different.

Pretty much every raider doing 10mans would argue that its the same as 25mans at every level therefore they should be in the exact same race. Its pretty obvious why they wanted to be viewed as the same as 25man raiding so no point going into that 2 year old argument again now lol

Typical Blizzard take so fukking long to admit the forums were right, by which time its pretty much too late.

Why would anyone raid with LFR and flex raiding? I guess some people enjoy the challenge of organizing that many people together and doing a coordinated thing, but that's always been the minority of the playerbase. Blizzard knows this too well. That's why LFR has been such a smashing success that Blizzard doesn't even need to make new Heroic dungeons to keep casuals and small guilds satisfied. Flex raiding is just the final nail in the coffin of raiding elitism. Good riddance.

If people quit because its too hard, why cant people quit because its too easy?

People quit for tons of reasons (often a mix of several of them). However, the major jump in difficulty of previously easily pugable content was closely follwed by one of the biggest drop in sub in history of WoW. Also, statisticly speaking it's much more probable for people (when you look at whole WoW players population) to see various aspects of the game as too difficult rather than too easy. It's because people who are so good and so experienced that the game can't offer them any more challenge will be a minority.

25mans have been in trouble since Cata launch with the shared lockout. Their numbers have been in freefall ever since... Theres not much that can be done about this decline unless radical changes r made to the overall raiding model.

You can also interpret this as "People vastly prefer 10-man raiding, but didn't because of better rewards of 25-man mode", every advantage Blizz gave to 25-man mode (And to raiding in general as a matter of fact) is now gone or greatly reduced, and people are flocking to 10-mans or quitting guild-based raiding altogether in favour of doing LfR (And maybe flex when it's released), so now almost every form of endgame gives character progression, people are abandoning organized raiding in droves.

This raises one question: From a "Most fun for most people"-angle, is propping up organized raiding as single best way to progress some more (Since i assume that's what's meant with "Radical changes to the overall raiding model") really the smart thing to do?

Actually in LFR you're guaranteed to get a full run, exactly when you want - even at weird hours. You can skip weeks and it's not a problem for anyone. You can leave early without creating problems to your group. You don't have to schedule anything... it's just a world of difference. For my personal needs and tastes, there's no chance I'm going back to organized raiding ever.

Your LFR experiences have been nicer than mine. 90% of my runs are full runs, but they do fall apart from time to time. Also queue times can be pretty ridiculous at the off hours, even in healing spec. The other aspects you mention are really the only draw for LFR, and they are also the factors that prevent people from doing normal raids to begin with. The point is that LFR isn't pulling any "desirable" players out of normal raids. Most normal raiding guilds don't want someone who misses half the raids and/or leaves mid-raid to begin with.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by DJKalteraphine

Why would anyone raid with LFR and flex raiding?

Because there are many achievements and mounts that are only available through normal and heroic raiding. The loot is also much higher ilevel.

How about we look at the whole 10 vs 25 man thing from another point of view: If you were going out to a club tonight would you want to go to one with 9 other people there or 24 other people there? Sure it is easier to get 10 raiders together, but from a social aspect you likely are missing out on the richness of having a larger more diverse group of players.

Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickThe nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. -George Orwell

You can also interpret this as "People vastly prefer 10-man raiding, but didn't because of better rewards of 25-man mode", every advantage Blizz gave to 25-man mode (And to raiding in general as a matter of fact) is now gone or greatly reduced, and people are flocking to 10-mans or quitting guild-based raiding altogether in favour of doing LfR (And maybe flex when it's released), so now almost every form of endgame gives character progression, people are abandoning organized raiding in droves.

This raises one question: From a "Most fun for most people"-angle, is propping up organized raiding as single best way to progress some more (Since i assume that's what's meant with "Radical changes to the overall raiding model") really the smart thing to do?

It would be all fine and dandy as choise is always good. I'm a 25man player and 10 mans don't interest me. I can understand someone feeling the other way around. However, the hassle with 25man raiding and unfortunate difficulty differences are often so big than from a logical point of view even for a person who enjoys 25mans more moving towards 10mans is much more logical solution. Be it temporary or full time. It's especially painfull for those people with competetive nature. Noone in my guild likes 10mans yet we did all realm firsts in Pandaria on 10man. We've lost Will of Emperor since it was so much easier than on 25man.

I've also been speaking with several people who would prefer to raid 25 mans but can't find a 25 man guild suiting their schedule and are only left with 10mans where the choise is much bigger.

25mans are more hassle and sometimes have more difficult encounters that aren't balanced with slightly faster gear progressiong (especially that it's RNG). The facts are that 25mans are disappearing at a rapid rate therefor they require slightly better incentive than 10mans in order to survive at all. Believe it or not many people would miss them - some might even quit the game completly if they are not able to raid 25mans anymore without fear that yet another guild they join disbands or changed into a 10man.

Haven't followed the thread but I have to flick in with my experiences to counter the "applications" argument.

Every guild I've applied to and where I was accepted was at a higher gear and experience level than I was. Why did they accept me? Most of them said that my application was well written and really seemed like I made an effort to impress.

It's the exact same reason why a lot of recruiters at real life jobs are looking at how well done a CV is, rather than solely what's on it. My current team leader worked as a recruiter for a few years and he said that he much rather hired someone with a lacking work history but a thought out CV because it shows that they put some effort into it and it is indicative that the person puts similar effort into the actual job.

TL;DR - 3 minute applications are more likely to get you denied. Put 20-30 minutes into it, make it nice and present it well.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Q: But who are the forum QQers going to QQ at now?
A: They'll find another name and still miss the point that Blizzard designs as a collective.

Being able to raid at any time doesn't equate to showering without soap (unless you can only use soap between 7pm and 11pm).

The key word was satisfaction. What satisfaction is there in LFR? "Seeing" the bosses?

Quick shower without soap/quick queue without having to learn the fights. Analogy is fine.

If people can't make specific raid times like 7p-11p, then find the times you can make. On my server there are guilds that raid ALL Times of the day. There's a 4p-8p guild, there's an 7-11, a 8-12, a 9-1, and there's a 3am-7am guild. "Not having time" is a poor excuse for "being too lazy to look".

People who find some sort of satisfaction in LFR raiding should just quit the game. It's like getting a car wash, but not using polish. You're essentially taking a shower and not using soap

who are you to determine the value and validity of the source of the satisfaction of players of complete strangers?
What god given right do you assume you have to inflict your narrow minded view of what constitutes a right to play, that people who might actually enjoy LFR are somehow lesser beings that dont deserve access to wow?
People take enjoyment from many different aspects of the game. Its not for anyone else to judge whether its a worthy reason or not.

and as for:

Originally Posted by Shaley

The key word was satisfaction. What satisfaction is there in LFR? "Seeing" the bosses?

Quick shower without soap/quick queue without having to learn the fights. Analogy is fine.

If people can't make specific raid times like 7p-11p, then find the times you can make. On my server there are guilds that raid ALL Times of the day. There's a 4p-8p guild, there's an 7-11, a 8-12, a 9-1, and there's a 3am-7am guild. "Not having time" is a poor excuse for "being too lazy to look".

i'll just repost this:

Originally Posted by Ashardis

My situation.....

I have a 22 month old girl and i am four months pregnant with my second child.
my play times are usually between 2pm - 4:30pm while daughter sleeps.
However i cant really use this time for anything 'dedicated' as far as concentration goes, as my bf gets home from work roughly 3:15pm.
And nothing pisses him off more than him getting in and i'm buried in the game, and dont tear myself away for 10 minutes to give him a hug/cuppa/ask how his day was.
after daughter wakes up, its on with making dinner, getting her showered and in bed, a bit of housework done, maybe watch an hour or so of TV while she tires herself out, until maybe 9pm when she goes to bed. sometimes she doesnt go till 10, depends on the sugar intake slipped to her by the grandmother >.<
this totally excludes the fact that with kids, shit happens (literally sometimes :P ) missing raid nights due to child illness, injury, temper tantrums, 'sorry guys, need to go shop, just ran out of nappies' etc. cant see it going down too well tbh.
If we both decide to log back on, my bf only gets an hour before he need to be off to bed since he has early starts, after 11 i have to play 'silent mode' as he complains i type too loudly and keep him awake. This is only a problem because atm we're stuck living with my mum till we can find a place of our own (saving deposit >.<) so our pc's are in our bedroom

this is all assuming a daily basis. If this was a daily basis, me and my family would have no clean clothes to wear, living in a dirty house with a jungle for a garden, since at some point in my day i need to find time to 'play housewife', which invariably means i dont get to play by the above hours described, on a daily basis.

Being pregnant again comes with its own problems (for me personally) i suffer regular headaches, some becoming migraines. I have problems with my siatic nerve in my right leg, so i cant sit for long, and the usual, using the loo every half an hour >.< When baby is born, i'll be 'awol' for at least 2 months while struggling to sleep around the 'feeding every 2 hours' schedule and still trying to keep a normal routine for my girl.
Not to mention, if me and my bf find a place soon, we'll be moving out, which is a massive interruption in itself, and then inevitably waiting to be reconnected to the internet.

Haven't followed the thread but I have to flick in with my experiences to counter the "applications" argument.

Every guild I've applied to and where I was accepted was at a higher gear and experience level than I was. Why did they accept me? Most of them said that my application was well written and really seemed like I made an effort to impress.

It's the exact same reason why a lot of recruiters at real life jobs are looking at how well done a CV is, rather than solely what's on it. My current team leader worked as a recruiter for a few years and he said that he much rather hired someone with a lacking work history but a thought out CV because it shows that they put some effort into it and it is indicative that the person puts similar effort into the actual job.

TL;DR - 3 minute applications are more likely to get you denied. Put 20-30 minutes into it, make it nice and present it well.

I can attest to this, as the GM of a guild.

And even going back to when I applied to join the guild I now run -- I had very little raiding experience, and my gear was pretty weak. However, I did write a very earnest, thoughtful application. Years later becoming an officer I was able to go into the officer-only section of our forums and I got to see the discussion the guild had on my app (every app gets discussed by the guild, but it gets moved to an officer-only section before you join -- to encourage frank discussion).

I got accepted to trial based on one line in my app, under the question "What do you feel you will bring to (the guild)?" Part of my answer was (paraphrasing as I don't have easy access to our old forum at the moment): "an understanding that the characters on my screen belong to real people". The GM at the time had said, "I don't care if he only does 200 dps, this line right here gets him at least two weeks".

And as we are now, with most of our main raiders somewhere in the ilvl range of the 520s (some late 5-teens, some early 530s), someone would have to be damn undergeared for that to seriously impact our decision. We've been taking in folks with ilvls in the 480s and 490s as long as what gear they do have is properly maintained (gemmed/enchanted). As long as we can tell you've been putting effort in, and you're agreeable to our identity and operating procedures, we're willing to give you a shot. I wouldn't have ever made it in if I wasn't afforded the same opportunity. Some of our very best players ever, folks who I earnestly believe could be in race for world first guilds (and actually one person was, after having began raiding with us, then later returned after he retired from the super hardcore scene), started out not really having a clue about raiding but gave an honest effort at learning.

I don't expect everyone is going to be able to have the kind of experience where they find a guild that 100% hits every mark they're looking for ... honestly, I would love if my guild were a bit more progressed (we have one heroic in ToT down. I'd like to be at maybe 3 down at this point) ... everyone I've known who was in a hardcore raid guild said being well-progressed was just about the only thing they liked about it -- the atmosphere was just terrible ... I'm sure there are some hardcore raid guilds that have as good, or better, social atmosphere than even casual guilds ... who knows. Don't be afraid to look around and try to find like-minded people and start your own guild. There's bound to be a lot of people with the same progression/atmosphere goals as you, with the temperament and skill-set needed.

In Vanilla/TBC/WotLK the ONLY way to see the raid content was to raid.... and most of the time that involved raiding in a guild (although PuGs became a lot more popular in WotLK).

If you wanted to fully experience WoW, you HAD TO RAID. You had to commit time to going into a new zone with 10-40 people you found on your server... and if you truly wanted to see all the content, you had to be good. If you sucked, there was no way you would get to see the entire raid.

Now, all you have to do is hit max level and buy some BoEs, then stand in your capital city and queue. You can let 24 other people carry you through the content. Doesn't matter if you suck, you can see all the bosses. You can experience all the content. No reason to get better.

I'm sorry, and I am sure I will get flamed, but the reason RAID GUILDS are dying out is because of LFR (although having normal mode doesn't help). LFR is wonderful for WoW in the sense that it gains lots of committed subscriptions and has maintained WoW subscription level... but for raid guilds, LFR is terrible.

The reason new raiding guilds were popping up every week in TBC was because you had to raid to see the content. The reason raiding guilds are disappearing every week now is because you don't. Not saying LFR is bad, but simply answering the question of the thread.

The key word was satisfaction. What satisfaction is there in LFR? "Seeing" the bosses?

Quick shower without soap/quick queue without having to learn the fights. Analogy is fine.

If people can't make specific raid times like 7p-11p, then find the times you can make. On my server there are guilds that raid ALL Times of the day. There's a 4p-8p guild, there's an 7-11, a 8-12, a 9-1, and there's a 3am-7am guild. "Not having time" is a poor excuse for "being too lazy to look".

Well, using your wash analogy, some enjoy a quick shower. Others likes a long soak in the bath. Both gets you clean in the end. Which is better? Your taste is different, but not the only one, or the proper one, or the real one, or the best one. Just a different.

If you can dedicate several hours of un-interrupted time on a regular basis per week. Good for you. Your life is different. Don't expect everyone to lead the same life as yours.

There are some really busy people out there who try to find time to play this game when they can. Just because you do not know any does not mean they do not exist.

1. "Applications". It's perhaps not the applications themselves that are at fault here, but examplary of mostly the high standards that many raidguilds have, they tend to only want to recruit people who have exactly the same gear as them or are ahead of them in progress and experience. People who are new to WoW usually won't gear up with anything than LFR and Valor gear and will have a very hard time getting accepted into any kind of raidguild. If guilds don't learn to lower their standards and to have a friendlier policy to letting new blood in then in the longterm they'll run out of anyone to recruit at all.

So, just like looking for work today. You have to already have done the job they're looking for which begs the question "why take the new job, absent money, because you sure aren't doing it for career growth." And then, make sure you complain about not being able to find enough American workers and never, ever, training.

I used to raid in the back-end of BC and through most of Wrath in what I'd call a pretty decent progressions guild. (We got Sarth 3D 10 and 25 prior to Ulduar and pushed Ulduar hardmodes). There's a lot involved in running a raiding guild, and running it well was a whole different concept. Another factor was the reward benefit back then. 25mans had the higher item level.

So, just like looking for work today. You have to already have done the job they're looking for which begs the question "why take the new job, absent money, because you sure aren't doing it for career growth." And then, make sure you complain about not being able to find enough American workers and never, ever, training.

The story of our times.

Bull. Sure, raiding experience is preferred, especially during progress, but guilds are perfectly willing to train new people. The key part here is that these new people must show some promise. Putting some effort into their characters - which can mean anything, from maxed professions, crafts, boe's and the like - to putting some effort into application. If someone cannot be arsed to spend more than one minute writting few simple sentences, guild members cannot be arsed to spend hours teaching this person how to raid. No one expects new recruit to write a book, just answer few simple question.

And sometimes, those answers are both silly and sad at the same time, making this potential recruit sound like a troll - or an idiot. But hey, refusing him is clear proof guild is filled with elitist jerks. It couldn't possibly be his fault, after all.