I don't really think it's going to be a fair comparison. I would say that the two rifles would be in different market segments and should coexist just fine.

But, I haven't bought the Keltec, and I am very interested in the Beretta, I just need to hold one before I know if it's for me.

crs1

02-16-2006, 2:13 PM

I have an SU16CA and love it. It's not an AR or AK, but it is what it is. I wouldn't expect it to perform like the Beretta, but the Beretta will probably be twice as expensive. My first impression is that the Cali version RX4 is more "hunting" rifle like than I would want--I have better rifles for that--and not as compact and tactical like a carbine should be.

Of course I hope I am right because I can't afford to buy another rifle right now ...and if the Beretta turns out great than I will have to.:D

Harbinger

02-16-2006, 2:19 PM

Well, I only have an SU16-CA and so I can only comment on that:

1. Trigger pull is HEAVY, but there is a risky fix out there for that.
2. Occasionally have problems with my EOTech wiggling loose after rifle warm-up / cool-down. Plastic rail may be the issue.
3. Kel-Tec and USGI Mags do not drop free
4. Recoil management is excellent with a Levang compensator on the CA
5. Water/Mud/Sand... see some of the test vids KTOG (Kel Tec Owners Group, http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=105)

All issues aside, it's a FANTASTIC rifle for the price!!

Mike

What do you guys (and perhaps gals) think of a side by side comparison of these two rifles?

It has a chrome-lined barrel. It has a low-movement gas system that should not impinge upon accuracy. It will be made by a larger firearms mfgr with worldwide 600yr reputation, and parts will be available for it.

HOWEVER - it's not available yet. It could be another year or so. Beretta is going to address the LEO/govt channel first before deciding on commercial/sporting sales. So don't hold your breath.

grammaton76

02-16-2006, 2:44 PM

3. Kel-Tec and USGI Mags do not drop free

Kel-tec synthetic mags are crap in the first place - I stopped using mine. I haven't had a problem with drop-free on either of my main USGI's though, nor with the Bushmaster 10's.

4. Recoil management is excellent with a Levang compensator on the CA

What recoil? It's a 223! Although, I've been thinking about a compensator for rapid fire, and a laser sight. It seems to me that a laser would be a better choice of mid-range sighting system for it anyway, considering that the rail just doesn't scream "perfect zero" to me in the first place.

Anyone bought the quad rail handguard for the SU-16? I'm curious to know how well the zero holds on that thing...

I'd have to agree though, for the price this thing is great. It's the perfect gun to not worry too much about if it gets banged around a little. At the price of an RX4 though, any scratch is gonna make you cry...

Harbinger

02-16-2006, 2:55 PM

Unless they've come out with something new, it's not a quad-rail, just a bottom rail... and it wiggles quite a bit.

It's really only for use for flashlights or a fore-grip (in other states).

Mike

Kel-tec synthetic mags are crap in the first place - I stopped using mine. I haven't had a problem with drop-free on either of my main USGI's though, nor with the Bushmaster 10's.

What recoil? It's a 223! Although, I've been thinking about a compensator for rapid fire, and a laser sight. It seems to me that a laser would be a better choice of mid-range sighting system for it anyway, considering that the rail just doesn't scream "perfect zero" to me in the first place.

Anyone bought the quad rail handguard for the SU-16? I'm curious to know how well the zero holds on that thing...

I'd have to agree though, for the price this thing is great. It's the perfect gun to not worry too much about if it gets banged around a little. At the price of an RX4 though, any scratch is gonna make you cry...

grammaton76

02-16-2006, 2:58 PM

Unless they've come out with something new, it's not a quad-rail, just a bottom rail... and it wiggles quite a bit.

It's really only for use for flashlights or a fore-grip (in other states).

Ah, sorry, my mistake - I hadn't browsed their website lately and I've had quad rails on the brain. Too bad on the wiggling - I'm not really interested in mounting optics on the top rail, but a decently secure bottom rail would've been ok for a laser.

Harbinger

02-16-2006, 3:21 PM

People do it... and I'm sure it works "ok", but I'd recommend only buying that fore-end for looks and feel, not tactical function.

You could always do some sort of barrel-clamp solution for your light/laser mount.

Ah, sorry, my mistake - I hadn't browsed their website lately and I've had quad rails on the brain. Too bad on the wiggling - I'm not really interested in mounting optics on the top rail, but a decently secure bottom rail would've been ok for a laser.

grammaton76

02-16-2006, 3:33 PM

People do it... and I'm sure it works "ok", but I'd recommend only buying that fore-end for looks and feel, not tactical function.

You could always do some sort of barrel-clamp solution for your light/laser mount.

Well, so far my experience with barrel-clamp accessories has been less than stellar. After seeing the barrel-clamp bipod on my SKS get wriggly in short order and start scratching up the bluing, I resolved not to touch barrel clamps any more.

Unless of course there are barrel clamps that work (i.e. don't damage the finish and actually hold securely, even though heating and cooling)?

I'm guessing it would be possible with some kind of rubber padding or something, but I haven't seen anything like that.

crs1

02-16-2006, 4:07 PM

I put the handguard/rail on mine just for looks, and now I use a YHM bipod adaptor for a harris bipod...It looks much more tactical...I also have an EOTech on mine and it works okay to 100 yards, but then again, I am not seeking sub moa performance...I think the polymer receiver flexes alot when the bolt is cycling. A better optics mount would be some sort of cantilever off of the barrel...metal to metal is always best...But like I said before, it is what it is....

grammaton76

02-16-2006, 4:11 PM

I put the handguard/rail on mine just for looks, and now I use a YHM bipod adaptor for a harris bipod...It looks much more tactical...I also have an EOTech on mine and it works okay to 100 yards, but then again, I am not seeking sub moa performance...I think the polymer receiver flexes alot when the bolt is cycling. A better optics mount would be some sort of cantilever off of the barrel...metal to metal is always best...But like I said before, it is what it is....

Interesting - I'd figured it wouldn't even work too well at 100. Might have to rethink optics on the plastic, then...

Any pics of your SU-16 with the handguard and bipod? I'm kinda curious now...

bu-bye

02-16-2006, 4:38 PM

Interesting - I'd figured it wouldn't even work too well at 100. Might have to rethink optics on the plastic, then...

Shot a sub MOA at 100 yards with a 4X scope and reloads with my CA model. It can shoot well if you take your time. I think its a great little plunker. I just can't get over how light it is. It really makes a nice backpack gun. I may just keep mine for just that reason. A high powered rifle in a light and small package.

blacklisted

02-16-2006, 4:59 PM

Shot a sub MOA at 100 yards with a 4X scope and reloads with my CA model. It can shoot well if you take your time. I think its a great little plunker. I just can't get over how light it is. It really makes a nice backpack gun. I may just keep mine for just that reason. A high powered rifle in a light and small package.

Ohnoes! Is there something you would like to tell us? ;)

bu-bye

02-16-2006, 10:40 PM

Compared to a .22.

Yup. I can't think of any other rifle you could backpack with that isn't a 22. Springfield has a little dinger but here is not much you can fold in half and keep in a small backpack. Yes I do consider the SU a high power rifle. After all we live in Cali, not many options here:D

GW

02-16-2006, 11:16 PM

The SU-16 is a fine little rifle
Its compact and lightweight and accurate enough for plinking and self-defense at less than 200 yards. I put a Hakko BED 35 sight on mine because its very lightweight and keeps its zero.
If/when the Beretta becomes available I'll certainly give it a look but I have no gripes with the SU-16
In fact I give kudos to Kel-Tec for giving us an alternative to the Mini-14 and for being smart enough to use AR mags.

crs1

02-17-2006, 8:24 AM

Interesting - I'd figured it wouldn't even work too well at 100. Might have to rethink optics on the plastic, then...

Any pics of your SU-16 with the handguard and bipod? I'm kinda curious now...

I'll take some pics later today and PM you...You will like it.

grammaton76

02-17-2006, 5:07 PM

I'll take some pics later today and PM you...You will like it.

Very cool, looking forward to it.

I've gotta say, even if I were to move to a free state, I wouldn't get rid of my SU-16. I keep finding more things I like about it...

MrTuffPaws

02-17-2006, 7:58 PM

I heard the RX-4 will have a MSRP of $960.

11Z50

02-17-2006, 8:24 PM

I have an SU 16 B and it shoots well. I'm still trying to figure out what sighting system will work best. I might just use irons, but that rail on top screams at me for some good optics.

I am a Beretta fan and will probably score one of those when they come out. The SU is a special type of carbine though, and fills a important requirement for me. It's an extremely lightweight, handy and efficient machine. It's an excellent "trunk gun" and with the right set-up is very effective. I have several guns that I use for utilitarian purposes. One is the old faithful 870 12 ga. Another is the 2" Colt Cobra. The SU is the rifle that is easily portable, durable, and reasonably powerful. These three, of all my guns right now, get the most use. While these three don't get fired alot, they are with me alot, and if needed they are there.

Kenshin

02-18-2006, 2:05 PM

So, IF this becomes available to civilians, how long will it take for it to be available?

xenophobe

02-18-2006, 4:20 PM

From Shot Show prototype to full production? Beretta? Probably close to 2 years.