Alan Worsley, we all know who he is, noticed an ambiguity that sometimes presents itself in lucid dreams. In one of his studies he attempted to carry out certain tasks whilst lucid dreaming in a sleep lab. Everything was monitored. In the lucid dream, he found himself outdoors, in the rain, and, despite remembering that he was asleep in the lab and having the test in mind, he worried about the equipment getting wet. Only upon awakening did he realise how absurd his reasoning had been: How could the equipment get wet in real life when the rain and the wetness that was experienced was as phantom as his dream body?

In subsequent tests, the equipment enabled him to electrically stimulate his forearm by signalling eye movements. Whilst lucid dreaming, he experienced the electric stimuli but reasoned that it couldn't be because he was walking unattached to the machine down a dreamland road. The dream world appeared to have overthrown his logic when the electrical sensations were quite explicit and consistent with his expectations.

From this we can see why sometimes it may not be as straightforward as we think when making the distinction between dreams and lucid dreams. The sort of lucid dream reasoning Worsley describes in those lab tests is not congruous with waking state ratiocination.

Feel free to post your own experiences with this and what you think about this subject.

Last edited by Summerlander on 15 Jul 2013 17:21, edited 1 time in total.

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

I was in a lucid dream and it faded and ended. I reminded myself that it can very easily become a false awakening because they are very common for me after a lucid dream. I opened my eyes and sure enough, it was a dream-house and I was still dreaming. However, I really wanted to write down the details of the lucid dream I had just had...

So in my twisted, dream-logic-mind, I thought if I write it down on paper in the dream, perhaps I will wake up and find the notes scribbled on the wall in my room. It made perfect sense to me at the time! Even though I knew it was a dream, the logic of it just made sense to me for some reason.

(Before I wrote anything I reminded myself that I have already tried that before in past dreams to no avail, so I was able to snap out of it.)

Sometimes I think illogically in lucid dreams despite I am 100% aware it is a dream. (I probably have more examples, but that is the first I thought of.)

Why does this happen I wonder? Just how logical do we humans think we are really when it's so easy to be fooled?

I guess that as a hybrid state lucid dreaming can still incorporate dream logic, or at least it has that potential. These lucid dreams do reminds us that lucidity not only fluctuates, but, even if it's at its fullest, it can still allow bizarre thinking. The lucid dream world can be a distraction too. I've had a similar incident with my journal, too. Thanks for providing your example, Hagart, it's much simpler than Worsley's. It will be interesting to see what is going on neurobiologically. I made a mistake above, btw, need to edit when I get time: he was walking unattached to the machine in dreamland.

EDIT: I corrected the first post.

[ Post made via Android ]

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

Because of my chosen career, I am often challenged by the uninitiated on the science of lucid dreaming. Some people don't believe it's possible or that even if it were, they couldn't prove the extent of it. (Done, already of course, but some people just... cant... science!)

One night I dreamed lucidly of a lemon tree and wanted to generate proof that I had visited that lemon tree and that it existed in exquisite detail in my dream. My lucid logic was to take a piece of fruit and hold it in my hand and bring it back to reality when I woke up. Well..... duh. I was just convinced this would work in the dream, then couldn't believe how naive this had been when I woke up.

My understanding of this is that lucid dreams are co-created experiences: the conscious mind out to pursue conscious goals, and the unconscious mind out to pursue unconscious goals. The interaction between the two creates frustration because there are conflicting agendas. And sometimes it leads to really ridiculous thinking because the unconscious mind is winning out over the conscious mind.

Given this frustration, this dancing between two realms - the rational and the bizarre - and ending up with a confusing mess of both, I wonder if lucid dreams are better when one "creator" simply submits to the other? So it can really run with its conscious intention -- or with its unconscious freedom of thought, completely unjudged and unrestricted.

I've had many lucid dreams where I did nothing (consciously) other then stabilize my lucidity. I let the dream play itself out. They were really powerful. I didnt get to do all the usual favorites (like flying, eating, sex, etc) but these were the dreams I ended writing about most graphically the next day..... and have stuck with me more profoundly ever since.

Rebecca wrote:My understanding of this is that lucid dreams are co-created experiences: the conscious mind out to pursue conscious goals, and the unconscious mind out to pursue unconscious goals. The interaction between the two creates frustration because there are conflicting agendas. And sometimes it leads to really ridiculous thinking because the unconscious mind is winning out over the conscious mind.

I often write in my dream journal that I had a 'mental tug o war'. There is no right or wrong, but there are two ways to perceive the same thing and it bounces back and forth and it is not a lucid dream but a 'night musing' as I call it. It makes no sense and it's a night of confusion. This sounds crazy but even one of your articles was about famous scientists that dream and one was Richard Feynman and even he questioned why we get so bizarre, abstract thoughts in the early morning. We can chalk it up as Hypnopomic, but it doesn't answer any question.

All I'm saying is, dreams can be irrational one day and make perfect sense the next, and it all depends on how you perceive them. What is logic anyway? Let Immanuel Kant solve that....

(I am comfortable knowing that I am an illogical human being... I am not a Vulcan!)

Dreams can be so illogical yet they make so much sense sometimes... go figure.

Dreams are all about desires, logic is a whole new agenda and the two are in conflict!

We have to dream free and let our wildest desires run free! That's what keeps us sane!

You have to let go of logic. In fact, I wonder if that is what is stopping some beginners from lucid dreaming... they simply cant let go and become an illogical Alice in Wonderland the way many of us do without question.

Again I pose more questions than I have answers for...... But I love talks like this.

Summerlander wrote:Alan Worsley, we all know who he is, noticed an ambiguity that sometimes presents itself in lucid dreams. In one of his studies he attempted to carry out certain tasks whilst lucid dreaming in a sleep lab. Everything was monitored. In the lucid dream, he found himself outdoors, in the rain, and, despite remembering that he was asleep in the lab and having the test in mind, he worried about the equipment getting wet. Only upon awakening did he realise how absurd his reasoning had been: How could the equipment get wet in real life when the rain and the wetness that was experienced was as phantom as his dream body?

I have had quite a few experiences like that in lucid dreams, even after waking it took a while to realize that the things that happened, actually didn't really happen. In the good lucid dreams I am always struggling between the logical mind which has acknowledged that it is a dream and the 5 "dream" senses that are saying "but you are having all the normal inputs. Are you sure?" I think it's really fantastic to be watching and thinking about this tug of war as it's going on in real time. I've had times where it was just too confusing and I made myself wake up. When the sensory inputs are almost perfect in a dream, it's kind of hard to just accept that it's not real even though your logical mind knows it's a dream. I think the problem is that we're not used to denying what our 5 senses are telling us. One lucid dream comes to mind when I looked at my hands and had 6 fingers, then shouted "I knew this would happen sooner or later, awake and look, more than 5 fingers! No one is going to believe this!"

HAGART wrote:I just had an epiphany.

You have to let go of logic. In fact, I wonder if that is what is stopping some beginners from lucid dreaming... they simply cant let go and become an illogical Alice in Wonderland the way many of us do without question.

I do agree that we have to let go and not have too much of the conscious logical thought overriding the deeper subconscious processes. I like some of the lucid dreams where I'm not completely awake, still kind of "under" and the dream is more in control. Don't know how to describe it other than that. I still know I'm dreaming, but the experience is deeper and more insightful.

Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world? Morpheus

HAGART wrote:Dreams are all about desires, logic is a whole new agenda and the two are in conflict!

I'm actually going to disagree with myself. Because let's face it, some dreams are built upon fear and angst. Not really a desire that we long for. So I guess what I mean is that dreams are emotional and yet every now and then we become lucid. (Lucid literally means being able to think clearly between periods of confusion). Dreams can sometimes be periods of temporary insanity aren't they?

But even when we are 100% lucid with full detail and a sense of self.... we can still be illogical. Or there is a dream logic that just makes sense at the time when you are in the dream. I do find that if I over think things in the dream I snap out of it and wake up, and it's important to not think too logically in dreams if you want to prolong the dream and accomplish lucid dream goals.

I've once had a lucid dream about talking to a girl. Even though I knew I was going to wake up and that the girl only existed I wanted to photo her. She told me that "you can't bring anything from our world to yours".The DC told me there was no use in taking a photo, and did I listen? Nope

If a device could fully integrate with our minds and provide all sensations, not just the 5 senses, but perspiration, hunger, even salivation, proprioception, balance and many more...... how is that different from how we define reality as we perceive it?<ahref="http://www.fundraise.com/enterprise"> http://www.fundraise.com</a>this is very useful.