Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, it is a problem that faces everybody in the 2profession, Mr Irving. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, in this volume which you also have, which is 4the Himmler diary, it is on page 566, and my date reading 5is correct. It is September 17th. You rather worried me 6on that. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you are right there in saying it does 8not in the end matter. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Except that once again, it is only detail, you are quite 10right, my Lord. I will save my triumph in private. It is 11on the left-hand page. 12MR RAMPTON: I agree with you. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It does not matter, Mr Rampton. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am going to keep this open. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
His Lordship has ruled it does not matter. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can you turn, please, to page 432 of Professor Evans' 17report? There you see the English set out more or less as 18it is in German. Is that not right? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could you give me the reference in the 20documents as to where one finds that note? 21MR RAMPTON: One does not. One has to look in this book. Can 22I hand it up? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. I assumed it was somewhere. 24MR RAMPTON: I cannot find it in ---- 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. I did not realize there was a 26problem. I am sorry. I have wasted a certain amount of

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1time. 2MR RAMPTON: It is quite all right. I think we should have 3it. My Lord, in H1(ix). 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I probably have not got it here anyway. 5MR RAMPTON: As I have the Witte version, I suggest we give 6this to your Lordship. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is just so I have the reference really. 8MR RAMPTON: It is at page 364 of the file. Have you got one, 9Mr Irving? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
No, but I am very familiar with the document. I am the 11one who found it. I am the one who found it and first 12used it. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. It says in English, well, in German first, 14"volkstung und ziedlung" which means? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Volkstung und ziedlung. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, "volkstung" is one of those very difficult words to 18translate. It means nationality or ethnicity. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And "sietlung" just mean "settlement"? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
"And settlement", yes. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then it says: "Judensauswanderung"? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
"Jew emigration". 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Wiezelweitr verfahren werden"? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
"How should we carry on? "How should it be carried on?" 25There is a tick next to it so they discussed it. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And then "Besiedlung" Lublin?

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
"Resettlement of Lublin" in that sense, really, once it 2was empty, then settlement. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And a line against it? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
The sense is that they are going to use people, citizens 5from Lorraine, the Germans from Bosnia and ethnic Germans 6from Bessarabia which is a province of Romania. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Which suggests, does it not, that the Jews who have been 8sent on an auswanderung will make room -- the Jews of 9Lublin -- will make room for these people from Loraine, 10Bosnia and Bessarabia? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
That is a reasonable assumption that the two facts are 12interdependent. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then the right-hand column matters not, but 14"verhaltnisse", circumstances, general governor or, no, 15General Government it must be, must it not, Globus? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
It could be either, but the likelihood is it is government 17general. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Globus, if I may use a wrong word, is the Czar of Lublin 19is he not? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
He is the chief of police. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, and Lublin is in the General Government? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So it would fall to Globus -- he is an SS man, is he not? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
He was one of the mass murderers. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, he was. He was under Himmler's, he is in 26Himmler's ----

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1A.
[Mr Irving]
He is the senior SS and police chief, Hohere SS und 2Polizei. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So he has been given, or is going to get, the 4responsibility for the further processing or procedure of 5the auswanderung and replacement with Germans, ethnic 6Germans. That is right, is it not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, you are beginning to join dots in a very 8adventurous way which is not supported by any of the words 9actually on the paper in front of me. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Globus, Lublin is in the General Government? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Globus is head of police, or whatever it is, and, as you 13rightly say, one of the mass murderers in Lublin. The 14proposal is that Lublin shall be settled with people of 15German origin from different parts of Europe, and that 16comes immediately under the heading "Emigration of Jews, 17how to be further proceeded"? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Right, but you are missing the first word in that line 19which is "verhaltnisse" which is circumstances, 20conditions, and although, of course, we are now Holocaust 21obsessed in this world at present, other things were 22happening in the government general than just killing Jews 23which is what you would maintain. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, the ---- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
The resettlement programme, the deportation of large 26numbers of innocent people to uncertain areas in the East

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1was causing great civilian unrest. There were posters 2appearing overnight saying, "This week it is the Jews, 3next week it may be you, Poles". There were major 4problems of civilian moral problems in the government 5general and, if you look at my Goebbels' biography, you 6will see references to this when telegrammes come from the 7propaganda offices in these regions, back to the Berlin 8Ministry saying, "We are having major problems caused by 9this". 10 So, this is just one example of the dangers of 11leaping from mountain peak to mountain peek. There are 12things happening in between of which this document gives 13us no cognisance, but of which I have cognisance. So that 14why it is very dangerous, I think, to leap to conclusions. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, I am not leaping to conclusions, Mr Irving. Though 16I may not have your enormous wisdom and knowledge on this 17topic, I have learned a certain amount. After you have 18had a chance to think about the documents which come up to 19and beyond this point, ending with the conference in 20Berlin on 26th and 28th September -- that is the only that 21comes after this point ---- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
The conference in Berlin between whom? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- we are going to let everybody take cognisance of the 24surrounding material. We can start now if you want. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but, of course, these reports I referred to were in 26my discovery for your experts to see relating to the