I think the SRB thread flies in the face of that hypothesis. Ignorance is just as incurable, lest I should believe that virtually everybody on essentially any matter is being intentionally malevolent.

Practically every idiotic thing Americans think and do can be upended by 5 seconds of Googling and cross-examination. Starting with our misplaced sense of accomplishment for WWII that underpins most of our patriotic masturbation all the way up to all our current asinine precepts about capitalism and 'moral hazard.'

Southern Democrats were masters at bottling up legislation they hated, particularly bills expanding civil rights for black Americans. Their skills at obstruction were so admired that the newly sworn-in Johnson was firmly counseled by an ally against using the political capital he’d inherited as a result of the assassination on such a hopeless cause.

According to Caro, Johnson responded, “Well, what the hell’s the presidency for?”

"Dr King’s dream began to be realized when President Lyndon Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, when he was able to get through Congress something that President Kennedy was hopeful to do, the president before had not even tried, but it took a president to get it done."

She continued; "That dream became a reality, the power of that dream became real in people’s lives, because we had a president who said ‘we’re going to do it,’ and actually got it done."

That was around the time of the campaign when team Obama started to imply that Bill Clinton was a racist in order to consolidate the black vote in South Carolina and elsewhere. (FWIW, I still think Hillary was on target).

Why? They went out of their way to alienate the Democratic base in 2010 that led to those Congressional losses, literally to the point of outwardly publicly mocking them.

I figure it is at the point where everything is so partisan and voters are so stupid/ignorant, that there is no point in trying to retain your own voters; they will vote for you no matter what. Who you want to make friends with are the other side's voters. This makes Obama the best Republican president since Bill Clinton.

Paltivar wrote:

Quote:

Unless you believe in the "dumber than an old leather shoe" hypothesis of the Obama administration. Though I'm not sure why that would be any more comforting.

Ignorance can be cured but maliciousness can't.

Was it Napoleon who said Never blame malice for what can just as easily be attributed to stupidity.?

Looks like how I mangled it can probably be attributed to me. Robert A. Heinlein's 1941 You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity mutated into Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out maliceRobert J. Hanlon ~1980: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.Napoleon Bonaparte: Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetenceGoethe's The Sorrows of Young Werther (1774): ...misunderstandings and neglect create more confusion in this world than trickery and malice. At any rate, the last two are certainly much less frequent.

I think it's far simpler. Obama has been public about his distaste for homosexuality. He doesn't have to court them for votes; the Log Cabin's already breaking apart without him there, ll he has to do is publicly not say anything anti-gay, and that makes him better than the alternative. He can sit back, do nothing for them, and still actively gain vote share in that demographic. He not only 'doesn't care', he actively is exploiting their predicament.

I think it's far simpler. Obama has been public about his distaste for homosexuality. He doesn't have to court them for votes; the Log Cabin's already breaking apart without him there, ll he has to do is publicly not say anything anti-gay, and that makes him better than the alternative. He can sit back, do nothing for them, and still actively gain vote share in that demographic. He not only 'doesn't care', he actively is exploiting their predicament.

I did a quick look up, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Please to expand? The worst thing I've seen is that he personally is a Christian and so is against it on that basis, but it hasn't stopped him from being against DADT and DOMA etc. He does the right thing, regardless of his personal philosophy.

I was under the impression that he was following the law, until which time it could be changed. If this is bad, then I guess I'm confused.

Clearly, he has to follow the law regardless, the question is around whether his official position is that of support for DOMA, which it is.

The real contention though, lies in refusing to issue an executive order to ban discrimination based on sexuality among federal contractors. That's entirely within his power to do, yet he's making a very apparent political calculation not to do so at this time.

The worst thing I've seen is that he personally is a Christian and so is against it on that basis...

He said that marriage is "between a man and a woman" and "God is in the mix", which is basically the typical anti-gay viewpoint. And he didn't say that in a private conversation - he loudly proclaimed it in a political campaign, legitimizing it.

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...but it hasn't stopped him from being against DADT and DOMA etc.

He wasn't very enthusiastic on DADT - hundreds of soldiers got discharged on his watch and the repeal happened largely because of ongoing lawsuits and intense pressure from gay rights activists.

He's technically against DOMA, but his DOJ had been defending it in court for years (and with all the typical anti-gay arguments). More importantly, he still hasn't expressed any support for civil marriage equality - which makes his opposition to DOMA unprincipled and half-hearted. Is it the "God in the mix" aspect that's stopping him? Or cold-hearted political triangulation?

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He does the right thing, regardless of his personal philosophy.

Is there any reason to believe that he does the right thing, not the politically advantageous thing? As far as I can tell, he says and does only as little as possible (and the executive order is another example).

Oh, and I have a question for you. If someone you know said that, for example, a black man shouldn't be President, would you refer to it as "personal philosophy"?

Edit: I just stumbled upon a blog post that reminded me that nondiscrimination causes had been removed from the DADT repeal to mollify the White House. Again, it's something that Obama could fix with an executive order - but he refuses to. He seemingly doesn't want to support pro-gay measures - for political or even personal reasons. Or is it just a matter of doing as little as possible to have the mission "accomplished"?

Maybe Obama opposes gay marriage and equality *because* he is a black male. I recall seeing during the Prop 8 debacle that, as a group, black males have a much higher propensity to oppose gay rights (somewhat ironically) than most other demographics.

You're suggesting his personal character is a biproduct of his race?There's a word for that idea you know.

I'm not saying he dislikes gay people because his skin color is darker than mine. I'm saying it's possible that he's more likely, for whatever cultural phenomenon surrounds being a black make, to dislike gay people.

A black male is more likely to be a Tupac fan than a Garth Brooks fan. Maybe because of some biological attraction to physical likeness, but significantly more likely due to cultural considerations.

He's technically against DOMA, but his DOJ had been defending it in court for years (and with all the typical anti-gay arguments). More importantly, he still hasn't expressed any support for civil marriage equality

Doesn't supporting the respect for marriage act qualify? It would repeal DOMA and have the federal government recognize any marriage that was recognized by a state.

A black male is more likely to be a Tupac fan than a Garth Brooks fan. Maybe because of some biological attraction to physical likeness, but significantly more likely due to cultural considerations.

I thought that whites were actually the majority consumers of hip hop music? Maybe not now, since rap and hip hop seem to have fallen out of favor in the top-40 charts, but definitely during the late 90s and early 2000s.

There were maybe three black kids in my high school, but Tupac and Biggie were huge amongst the people I knew.

A black male is more likely to be a Tupac fan than a Garth Brooks fan. Maybe because of some biological attraction to physical likeness, but significantly more likely due to cultural considerations.

I thought that whites were actually the majority consumers of hip hop music? Maybe not now, since rap and hip hop seem to have fallen out of favor in the top-40 charts, but definitely during the late 90s and early 2000s.

There were maybe three black kids in my high school, but Tupac and Biggie were huge amongst the people I knew.

/Tangent

While I'm not necessarily saying naschbac is correct, identifying cultural trends among black people says nothing about the cultural trends about white people.

If 90% of black people preferred Tupac to Garth Brooks, it wouldn't matter if 10%, 50%, or 99% of white people had the same tendency when you're talking about probabilities of what black people like.

That said, given Obama's background and upbringing, I'm not sure if it even makes sense to talk with any real certainty about how much black culture has or hasn't influenced his various policies or personal positions.

I thought that whites were actually the majority consumers of hip hop music? Maybe not now, since rap and hip hop seem to have fallen out of favor in the top-40 charts, but definitely during the late 90s and early 2000s.

There were maybe three black kids in my high school, but Tupac and Biggie were huge amongst the people I knew.

/Tangent

Which thankfully has exactly nothing to do with what I said, unless I'm mistaken and black males are a huge purchasing demographic of Garth Brooks music.

That huge throngs of white people LOVE hip-hop music has exactly nothing to do with the fact that huge throngs of black males don't appear to like country music.

I thought that whites were actually the majority consumers of hip hop music? Maybe not now, since rap and hip hop seem to have fallen out of favor in the top-40 charts, but definitely during the late 90s and early 2000s.

There were maybe three black kids in my high school, but Tupac and Biggie were huge amongst the people I knew.

/Tangent

Which thankfully has exactly nothing to do with what I said, unless I'm mistaken and black males are a huge purchasing demographic of Garth Brooks music.

That huge throngs of white people LOVE hip-hop music has exactly nothing to do with the fact that huge throngs of black males don't appear to like country music.

It does if your argument is that black people love hip-hop because they are black.

Doesn't supporting the respect for marriage act qualify? It would repeal DOMA and have the federal government recognize any marriage that was recognized by a state.

It certainly doesn't qualify in a way that would offset his statement about marriage. Think of it this way: the states will be free to define marriage as between a man and a woman - just how Obama likes it - and most of them will. Yes, the law would definitely be an improvement that would enable marriage equality for a minority of gay people. But what it would support is states' rights, not gay marriage. Without an explicit statement of support Obama is at best an enabler, not a supporter.

What's worse is that it's debatable how enthusiastic he is about the DOMA repeal. If you think that gay marriage is wrong and ungodly, how eager will you be to spend your political capital on it?

I don't like country music because I don't like gushing patriotism that pervades its sub-culture, which I'm sure is somewhat influenced by the fact that I live in a liberal bastion, have somewhat typical issues with authority characterized by only-children raised in white suburbia by an overbearing mother.

Why do black males seem to oppose gay rights equality? I'm sure it's not due to melanin, but it is nonetheless true that they do. So I'm assuming there are some social and cultural factors in play, and perhaps those same factors are in play with Obama?

Bammer wrote:

I don't think that matters to Nasbac. He appears to know how it works and is applying the "logic" to our ever-so-culturally-black president.

That said, given Obama's background and upbringing, I'm not sure if it even makes sense to talk with any real certainty about how much black culture has or hasn't influenced his various policies or personal positions.

That said, given Obama's background and upbringing, I'm not sure if it even makes sense to talk with any real certainty about how much black culture has or hasn't influenced his various policies or personal positions.

Church.

Later in life, sure. When he was growing up? Was he raised in a culture that disdains homosexuality?

That said, given Obama's background and upbringing, I'm not sure if it even makes sense to talk with any real certainty about how much black culture has or hasn't influenced his various policies or personal positions.

Church.

Later in life, sure. When he was growing up? Was he raised in a culture that disdains homosexuality?

Maybe Obama opposes gay marriage and equality *because* he is a black male.

naschbac wrote:

Bammer wrote:

It does if your argument is that black people love hip-hop because they are black.

Which thankfully it isn't.

No. Your argument is that the black guy is homophobic because he's black. At least with the hiphop thing you were able to handwave up some bullshit appeal to a biological mechanism. Never get tired of people with your worldview pulling that shit out of their asses.

Almost all evidence suggests that Obama homophobia is political. He wouldn't have backed marriage equality in his 1990s state senate race if it were otherwise.

It takes a certain level of personal homophobia to go along with political homophobia. It's also possible that his early support of marriage equality was just as political in nature. Finally, it's possible that, you know... people change with time.

No. Your argument is that the black guy is homophobic because he's black. At least with the hiphop thing you were able to handwave up some bullshit appeal to a biological mechanism. Never get tired of people with your worldview pulling that shit out of their asses.

I never tire of your pathetic grasp of English and extremely poor capacity for logical construction. Bammer... they're not "Pig Newtons" they'e "Fig Newtons."

My argument was that black males appear to oppose gay rights equality in higher proportions than some other typically Democratic demographics. Barack Obama is apparently a black male Democrat. So perhaps it should be less surprising that he opposes gay rights equality, because perhaps he does so for whatever reasons that demographic also tends to do so, which (as I've stated repeatedly) has more than likely nothing to do with their being black.

I also specifically said that a black male's propensity to prefer hip-hop to country music likely *isn't* due to some biological factor. It was a preface stated out of hand to cast aside in favor of the supposition that followed it.

Almost all evidence suggests that Obama homophobia is political. He wouldn't have backed marriage equality in his 1990s state senate race if it were otherwise.

It takes a certain level of personal homophobia to go along with political homophobia. It's also possible that his early support of marriage equality was just as political in nature. Finally, it's possible that, you know... people change with time.

*rolleyes*

Because clearly, if you only take moderate steps in the direction of supporting gay rights, you're a homophobe. Put on your chaps and get in the parade, or you hate gays.