There is one HUGE ERROR in this discussion so far. I read the article the other day before seeing this thread. The article is about indigenous RUSSIAN CITIZENS and their tiny little churches.

Where did anyone get the idea of Western prosyletizes from this article? Most of these people have been protestants who suffered under the commuinists and/of converted from atheism.

Russian citizens who are protestants have the right under Russian law to enjoy, if not religious freedom as we understand it in America, then at least freedom from harassment and imprisonment. Putin himself states that Russians should have this kind of freedom. Petty local politicians should not be able to do this to these people by Russian law. The nation simply has not put together national institutions and a legal system to protect these people at the local level. They are probably a generation away from this as yet (unless they fall back into totalitarianism).

I don't think they will and I hope they do not. Russians are authoritarian by nature. But they can avoid a new totalitarianism by creating institutions (not necessarily domocratic in the western sense, but representational and some semblance of the rule of law rather than the rule of the cult of personality in a leader). I genuinely think that Putin would like his legacy to be the person who put those institutions into place.

Again, he will never satisfy Western deomocrats (not referring to the US political party here) but he can establish institutions and a rule of law under the iron hand in a velvet glove of a powerful head of state, which would probably be good for Russia and be what most Russians would want. It would also protect them from the caprice of less noble leaders.

Where did anyone get the idea of Western prosyletizes from this article?

From the article's third paragraph:

Just as the government has tightened control over political life, so, too, has it intruded in matters of faith. The Kremlin’s surrogates in many areas have turned the Russian Orthodox Church into a de facto official religion, warding off other Christian denominations that seem to offer the most significant competition for worshipers. They have all but banned proselytizing by Protestants and discouraged Protestant worship through a variety of harassing measures, according to dozens of interviews with government officials and religious leaders across Russia.

Outside of church-sponsored state persecution of Protestant missionary sects in Russia, what is the Russian Church doing to fill the spiritual void created by the Bolshevik persecutions?

Not to diminish what the communists did to religion, but I think it is important to not scapegoat them for every problem in today's Church. Even reading 19th century secular literature shows just how much the aristocracy had already abandoned Orthodoxy. Rather than a pastoral response, the Church simply grew more reactionary and ossified. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I don't think I've ever seen a study from an Orthodox perspective as to why this happened and what pastoral measure ought to be taken to prevent it in the future.

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Orthodox Christian Empire no longer exists in Russia, if it ever did after Tsar Peter the Great, so the idea that the Church can use the armed might of the Russian state is an unworkable fantasy.

Peter I gets a bad wrap around here, but he also did many good things for the church like trying to fight clerical ignorance (which was rampant) by establishing a seminary system.

This talk of indigenous Protestants reminds me Alyosha the Baptist in the end of Solzhenitsyn's One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich. But obviously Solzhenitsyn hates Russia and Orthodoxy

I read the article in the OP from a friend's blog yesterday (the post from his blog is HERE).

I dunno, y'all...it's pretty obvious that we're FAR beyond any kind of State Church situation lasting for MUCH longer (maybe a generation, two at most), with the secularization of the globe happening faster and faster, seemingly by the week. While I tend to look with favor on the preservation of the traditional Russian religious identity as "officially" Orthodox (this at least preserves an overall, pervading national identity and context in which folks can more readily encounter the true faith, even if said faith itself is not all-pervasive now), I do acknowledge that the nominalism that this ends up engendering is not a good thing -- or rather, it has some very glaring cons.

The baptists in general -- and to a degree the charismatics (the two groups which, iirc, comprise by far the largest two indigenous Protestant groups in Russia) -- cut their teeth as religious groups bucking the state church and have always been grass-roots movements. This is why tithing is second nature to me; yes, it's commanded in Scripture, but hey, pastor's gotta eat, and that building ain't gonna build itself! It's just practical, and I think that lots of folks coming from places where the state helps build these massive temples don't (in general) have as good a grasp on the idea of your having to dig in those pockets and give, of your having to build a community of worship by being there every time the doors are open (This, of course, keeping in mind the obvious exceptions of folks from the old country whose sacrificial giving and sweat built the temples in which we converts were received into the Church). The rule is, usually, that folks assisted by the State don't take as much ownership of the faith, by and large; it's not as "built-in" to the overall culture of the community.

And, lest you think me a cradle-basher, The above paragraph is very tightly paraphrasing our diocesan treasurer (a devout, extremely involved Serbian gentleman who's never been anything but Orthodox a day in his life).

I do have to say, concerning the claim of "persecution," that until we start hearing about protestant pastors being crucified on the doors of their churches (like a Ukrainian priest I read about during the Soviet years), all this talk is, by and large, hyped-up, and the evangelicals should just get used to being the minority. As the above-linked blog post said, "The writer strives to work up a case for the 'persecution' of Russian Protestants. I suspect that Russians know a thing or two about real persecution, and this ain't it. To label it such demeans and dishonors the tens of millions of martyrs for the Faith under the Soviet Union. For example, an evangelical Baptist group was prevented from renting a theater for a Christian music festival. That's correct. Oh, the horror of it all! (Would that 90% of Christian music concerns in this country suffer a similar fate.) But I am being cynical, I suppose. The truth is, these groups are merely being inconvenienced."

I would add, what did these protestant groups expect? My friend continues: "Can you really imagine Vladimir Putin trying to decide between, say, the Freewill Baptists, or Missouri Synod Lutherans, or say the New Life Covenant Believers Outreach Center (or is it the New Covenant Believers Outreach Life Center?), rather than say, the Orthodox church which has been the faith of his nation and forebears for over 1,000 years now?...True, some bureaucrats are making their ministry harder with unnecessary red tape and intimidation--in the most time-honored Russian tradition. But a little perspective is in order: Russia without an overbearing, ham-fisted bureaucracy--whether it be czarist, Soviet or Putinist--would hardly be Russia..." and, I would say, this is hardly the darkest hour in terms of how Russia treats its minorities.

So, Protestants, I think, need to get over it, basically, and accept their minority status and the hostility that can come with it -- Russia's not going to be pluralistic and passive towards other groups like secular, nominally-Protestant America is with us (though some of the grass-roots hostility down here in the South towards us Mary-worshippin', idol-kissin', dead-ritual-chantin' Orthydox can be a sight to behold).

That having been said, I fully agree with you, Νεκτάριος et al, that the Russian/Ukrainian/whatever Orthodox Church, if it does decide to put a hard stiff-arm to heterodox groups (whether foreign or domestic), needs then to step up to its own and switch its overall focus -- and it is to its own detriment if it does not do this. As important as it is to build grand temples to the glory of God (and it is), folks in the Ukraine -- most especially the starving orphans -- will continue to be drawn to those blessed few who give them the food, shelter, medicine and loving attention they desperately need...even if it does come along with imperfect, sometimes extremely harmful, theology. The faithful need to see the Church as a place they can go for food if they're hungry, shelter if they're homeless, clothes if they're naked...you know...Matthew 25. We in America might do well to let that light of good works shine a bit brighter, in spite of our small size -- it tends to draw folks who notice it and want to be illumined.

There could be so many factors here but the Russian state interference in church affairs has helped lay the seeds to weaken the church by such blunders as the oppression of the Molokans and the Old Beleivers for example (all indigenous & over 300 years ago). German Lutheran immigrants were sanctioned by Catherine the Great & Methodists mentioning persecution raises red flags. OTH, Russia is rightly wary of NATO expansion to the walls of the Kremlin & that espionage could be conducted under the guise of evangelical activists (in a few instances) could be true. State supported (& any) religious persecution must not be allowed; but what if Russia declares itself an Orthodox Christian nation (minus any persecutions) is it not their right? There are plenty of Islamic nations.

Defending the protestant sects is an aberation. The american "white man" with all his money thinks he can go and peoselytise anywhere he goes as if they are god. This is coming from heretical sects that claim there is no true visible earthly church yet only go to already christian countries to proselytize and set up their heretical altars. These cowards never go to non-christian countries, only to nations where the hard work has already been done, the gospel preached and ripe for these rich american missionaries to steal sheep. Its always the same especially with the baptist cult(s) , how they are going to save the godless russians. How the Orthodox need to be "born again". How the entire world needs to be saved by faith alone and the only ones who are given this power to save is the "protestant american white man".

I have said it before i will say it again , the United Nations needs to pass a resolution barring these heretical american missionaries from spreading their heresies abroad. America is here not to spread protestantism but to contain it and its dangerous heresies.

As i

If the UN has the power to ban a religious group then what will stop them from banning Orthodoxy? You don't want to give a para-national group that much power. That same Para-national group can backfire and persecute you.

Noone likes persecution. If you want the nonOrthodox World to have sympathy when the Orthodox are being persecuted then you have to have some form of sympathy when non-Orthodox groups are persecuted.

Also, historically America was never meant to trap Protestantism within its borders. It was suppose to spread Protestantism.

What needs to be done is, the Orthodox are going to have to learn how to argue against the non-Orthodox. The Orthodox are gonna have to use every nonviolent thing to fight it. Like 24 hour Orthodox Television, 24 hour radio, Apologetics for the laity to read.....so that when missionaries do come....they will be informed, and they wil know how to handle them humanely.

This is how American Baptists & Prespyterians are able to handle Mormons and JW's in America. There was a time in which Baptists, and other protestant groups physically fought and killed Mormon's and vice versa. But now they are able to handle them without the use of violence.

I think the samething can be done in Orthodox lands. They can be contained in a nonviolent way.

Nobody likes bad press, and bad press is only gonna hurt the Orthodox in nonOrthodox lands.

Why can't some of the new Billionares in Russia help the Russian Church in this matter? Why can't they help fund an Orthodox Television network? Or radio network? OR with an Apologetics ministry? Help with feeding the poor in Eastern Europe.....since most likely the majority of those that fall to protestantism, might come from the poor.

But I know Protestantism, and I know that they will focus most of their attention on the Russian Rich as well as on the Russians who have the most Political influence, success in Russian society, and those who have a decent education in Russian society.

Different forms of Protestantism will focus on different groups...depending on their tendencies. The Prespyterians will focus on the learned Russians. They like to do Missions associated with Education.

The Pentecostals are more likely to focus on the blue color and poor.

JNORM888

« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 12:58:47 PM by jnorm888 »

Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

I do have to say, concerning the claim of "persecution," that until we start hearing about protestant pastors being crucified on the doors of their churches (like a Ukrainian priest I read about during the Soviet years), all this talk is, by and large, hyped-up, and the evangelicals should just get used to being the minority. As the above-linked blog post said, "The writer strives to work up a case for the 'persecution' of Russian Protestants. I suspect that Russians know a thing or two about real persecution, and this ain't it. To label it such demeans and dishonors the tens of millions of martyrs for the Faith under the Soviet Union. For example, an evangelical Baptist group was prevented from renting a theater for a Christian music festival. That's correct. Oh, the horror of it all! (Would that 90% of Christian music concerns in this country suffer a similar fate.) But I am being cynical, I suppose. The truth is, these groups are merely being inconvenienced."

I would add, what did these protestant groups expect? My friend continues: "Can you really imagine Vladimir Putin trying to decide between, say, the Freewill Baptists, or Missouri Synod Lutherans, or say the New Life Covenant Believers Outreach Center (or is it the New Covenant Believers Outreach Life Center?), rather than say, the Orthodox church which has been the faith of his nation and forebears for over 1,000 years now?...True, some bureaucrats are making their ministry harder with unnecessary red tape and intimidation--in the most time-honored Russian tradition. But a little perspective is in order: Russia without an overbearing, ham-fisted bureaucracy--whether it be czarist, Soviet or Putinist--would hardly be Russia..." and, I would say, this is hardly the darkest hour in terms of how Russia treats its minorities.

So, Protestants, I think, need to get over it, basically, and accept their minority status and the hostility that can come with it -- Russia's not going to be pluralistic and passive towards other groups like secular, nominally-Protestant America is with us (though some of the grass-roots hostility down here in the South towards us Mary-worshippin', idol-kissin', dead-ritual-chantin' Orthydox can be a sight to behold).

That having been said, I fully agree with you, Νεκτάριος et al, that the Russian/Ukrainian/whatever Orthodox Church, if it does decide to put a hard stiff-arm to heterodox groups (whether foreign or domestic), needs then to step up to its own and switch its overall focus -- and it is to its own detriment if it does not do this. As important as it is to build grand temples to the glory of God (and it is), folks in the Ukraine -- most especially the starving orphans -- will continue to be drawn to those blessed few who give them the food, shelter, medicine and loving attention they desperately need...even if it does come along with imperfect, sometimes extremely harmful, theology. The faithful need to see the Church as a place they can go for food if they're hungry, shelter if they're homeless, clothes if they're naked...you know...Matthew 25. We in America might do well to let that light of good works shine a bit brighter, in spite of our small size -- it tends to draw folks who notice it and want to be illumined.

Lord, have mercy.

I 100%ly agree

JNORM888

Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

And, lest you think me a cradle-basher, The above paragraph is very tightly paraphrasing our diocesan treasurer (a devout, extremely involved Serbian gentleman who's never been anything but Orthodox a day in his life).

And really this isn't even a convert vs. cradle issue. Consider the thread we had here about the five year lifespan of converts, my own struggles and my observations, the issue of settling for mediocrity and nominalism is just as much a danger in convert parishes as cradle parishes.

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I do have to say, concerning the claim of "persecution," that until we start hearing about protestant pastors being crucified on the doors of their churches (like a Ukrainian priest I read about during the Soviet years), all this talk is, by and large, hyped-up, and the evangelicals should just get used to being the minority. As the above-linked blog post said, "The writer strives to work up a case for the 'persecution' of Russian Protestants. I suspect that Russians know a thing or two about real persecution, and this ain't it. To label it such demeans and dishonors the tens of millions of martyrs for the Faith under the Soviet Union. For example, an evangelical Baptist group was prevented from renting a theater for a Christian music festival. That's correct. Oh, the horror of it all! (Would that 90% of Christian music concerns in this country suffer a similar fate.) But I am being cynical, I suppose. The truth is, these groups are merely being inconvenienced."

Modern Russia is much different and far more nuanced than Soviet style persecution. What has happened to people I know is that groups of young thugs will intimidate them, members of the church will be beaten, mugged, robbed etc and police and other officials refuse to offer any protection. A lot of these people live in genuine fear for their safety. So it is a bit more than simply inconveniencing missionaries. Just imagine the uproar is the US refused to grant visas to officials from ROCOR and the MP, didn't allow them to own property etc.

I do have to say, concerning the claim of "persecution," that until we start hearing about protestant pastors being crucified on the doors of their churches (like a Ukrainian priest I read about during the Soviet years), all this talk is, by and large, hyped-up, and the evangelicals should just get used to being the minority. As the above-linked blog post said, "The writer strives to work up a case for the 'persecution' of Russian Protestants. I suspect that Russians know a thing or two about real persecution, and this ain't it. To label it such demeans and dishonors the tens of millions of martyrs for the Faith under the Soviet Union. For example, an evangelical Baptist group was prevented from renting a theater for a Christian music festival. That's correct. Oh, the horror of it all! (Would that 90% of Christian music concerns in this country suffer a similar fate.) But I am being cynical, I suppose. The truth is, these groups are merely being inconvenienced."

So, Protestants, I think, need to get over it, basically, and accept their minority status and the hostility that can come with it -- Russia's not going to be pluralistic and passive towards other groups like secular, nominally-Protestant America is with us (though some of the grass-roots hostility down here in the South towards us Mary-worshippin', idol-kissin', dead-ritual-chantin' Orthydox can be a sight to behold).

And what if those faithful Orthodox immigrants who, through sacrifice, built our temples just had to accept their minoroty status and the "inconvenience" of being denied building permits, etc.

And it wasn't just Orthodox Christians in those gulags - these other indigenous Christian groups suffered as well, so nothing is being demeaned.

the point is that current Russian law allows for these groups a certain amount of freedom, less than we enjoy, but more than they are getting. And they are not receiving it due to petty officials and former communistis in local govt. and sadly within the Church even still to this day. Among both govt. officials and Church beaurocrats, you can convert their souls but not necessarily change the way the they do business.

And less I ceem to be unfair and culturally biased, isn't that true in the West as well. How many Christians - Orthodox, Catholic, mainline Protestant or Evangelical, let our faith REALLY change the way we do business.

The real difference between us and the early Church is that their morality package included economics - the way we do business. That's why they had an impact and we don't.

Yes,heretics should be driven out just like the heretical pilgrims and quakers were (who no longer exist). Nor should anyone complain about muslim countries with their rigid policies, no one said spreading the gospel would be easy, expect the crown of martyrdom if you want to evangelize in strange lands.

No one said spreading the gospel would be easy, but someone did say "all who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matthew 26:52). You really think Christ would want us to emulate the rigid policies of some Muslim countries?

It's one thing to say that the difficulties Protestants face aren't really that bad and shouldn't be called "persecution"; it's quite another thing to say that those difficulties don't go far enough and Protestants ought to be deported.

Modern Russia is much different and far more nuanced than Soviet style persecution. What has happened to people I know is that groups of young thugs will intimidate them, members of the church will be beaten, mugged, robbed etc and police and other officials refuse to offer any protection. A lot of these people live in genuine fear for their safety. So it is a bit more than simply inconveniencing missionaries. Just imagine the uproar is the US refused to grant visas to officials from ROCOR and the MP, didn't allow them to own property etc.

Good point. I overlooked that.

JNORM888

Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.