Atelier Totori Grabs Gold As The Best PlayStation Game For Girls

We saw the top three PlayStation 3 and PlayStation Vita games for girls according to Japanese developers. Hatsune Miku: Project Diva f got first prize. The readers of SPA! Magazine also took the same poll, and made some surprising selections.

1st Place – Atelier Totori: The Adventurer of Arland (PlayStation 3 and Vita)

Atelier Totori: The Adventurer of Arland finishes with a surprising first place! Players assume the role as Totori (Totooria Helmold) in search for her mother, in this touching RPG. As an Alchemist, Totori takes requests, prepare, explores and fights and ranks up her Explorer License. The item collecting and creating aspect of the game is definitely one of the big factors that made the game popular to the female audience, not to mention all the costumes available on the PS Vita version!

2nd Place – Persona 4 Golden (PS Vita)

The nice visuals and addicting simulation play found in Persona 4 Golden were just some of the many reasons why it got many votes as a top recommended game for girls. It’s easy to pick up and has a smooth pace to the story, keeping girls (and boys!) hooked to the game.

3rd Place – Hatsune Miku: Project DIVA f (PS Vita)

The gold prize winner of the developer’s poll makes it in the top three for the reader’s choice. There’s no arguing that Miku is loved by developers and readers!

…I thought I had a noble and manly taste in games. Well I like all three games only P4 would be in my top three.

Curan_Altea

No offense, but I wouldn’t consider Project Diva very manly. I own and love the games myself. Tired of that smirk and chuckle every time I tell someone what I’m playing.

Boba Bob

You seem to be misunderstanding something, these games happen to be popular with girls, not “popular only with girls”, these games were already popular and are still popular with guys, before them crazy polls poped up.

what i want to know is WHO was polled–it says the readers of the magazine, but it doesn’t say exclusively female. Who’s to say it wasn’t a big sausage party of dudes saying ‘hey yeah that game is good for girls’

Boba Bob

I agree with you Robert, as sad as it is, it’s actually very likely to happen, which is why generally polls and rankings don’t mean crap.

psycho_bandaid

Not misunderstanding at all. Just joking really. I wear my love of Hatsune Miku proudly and my buddies know that talking crap about her only leads to me blaring vocaloid from my speakers. That and P4 is freaking classic period. Male or Female it is undeniable.

Joshua Myers

Still a great game for guys I played Atelier Roronoa and this one and i thoroughly enjoyed both of them.

Not so sure about Gundam Seed, but One Piece actually has a huge female reader base in Japan. Hell, I think a poll about the reader base of Shonen Jump showed that One Piece actually had more female fans than male fans.

Boba Bob

The polls aren’t accurate, One piece’s vast majority of readers are little boys aged 12-15, and they’re likely not to vote in magazine polls.

Guest

No.. most of one piece’s readers in Japan are aged about 20-50. Even the teens and young boys reading are lesser than people above 50. It’s probably because this series has been going on for a long time.

puchinri

I definitely think it is an age/time factor. It may also be more intimidating to be a younger reader and try to jump into the series. (My boyfriend and a close friend were intimidated about starting as well, even when it was only at 400 chaps.)

puchinri

Actually, I question that as well. Pretty sure most of the people that enjoy OP overall are older, and a huge group of them are female. That I know for certain.

I don’t think they’d be boys only, but… fighting manga and robots? These are the games with the most appeal to girls? And these games focus on those elements much more than their source material.

puchinri

That’s not entirely surprising. Really, those elements are pretty gender neutral (they even show up in certain and/or plenty of shoujo titles, or particular gender neutral titles). The problem is a lot of creators neglect female audiences and don’t believe/forget that they actually enjoy that stuff as well.

MrTyrant

Of course Gundam Seed, just look at the characters those Hirai faces design are clearly for girls. That’s what Sunrise was aiming for at the time when the serie was produced also some games have some dating sim element i think.

Mr_SP

Dating sim Seed games? No, there’s nothing even remotely close to that. There’s some SRPGs, which handle the plot in a Visual Novel type style, but nothing that can be called dating sim. And the game in question – which I have – is Gundam Seed Battle Destiny, which is pure action, with very little plot going on. It’s genre is “giant robot action”, which I don’t normally associate with girls, and certainly never considered girls to be a major target audience.

Even if you use the Seed angle, it’s still “a game for fans of Gundam Seed”, which would not be the wisest choice for a girl that doesn’t watch Gundam Seed.

MrTyrant

I bet girls would play the game, would love the characters and would see the anime after.

Kind of what usually happen in SRW, most people tend to watch some show out of curiosity because they liked what they saw in the crossover game.

Mr_SP

That’s true for Super Robot Wars, but the issue is that SRW covers the plot of a series, and Battle Destiny… doesn’t. It’s plot is literally impossible to understand without having seen the series. There’s no out-of-battle dialogue, only the lines spoken during fight scenes, and not all of them. Due to that, many of Seed’s major plot elements go nearly unremarked upon – Flay barely exists until she dies, so we know almost nothing about why the Federation has nuclear weapons, or how Kira knows her, Lacus is a non-entity until the Eternal launches, Kira and Athrun’s history and friendship hardly exist, Dearka randomly switches sides, and so forth. The game is *purely* Mobile Suits and gameplay.

I won’t say that people wouldn’t still pick up the game, then eventually watch the series – that’s what happened to me, thanks to Gundam vs Zeta Gundam – but if you’re not interested in giant robots, this game is not going to convince you to give the series a try, as it has little else. I would never recommend the game to someone who hasn’t watched the series. To people who have no interest in robots, I would recommend against it, as it offers nothing else.

And if you really think that Hirai’s designs are enough to convince a girl to play a game she has otherwise no interest in, then either you think very little of women, or Battle Destiny’s presence here is purely a result of having very little competition.

puchinri

I think that further reflects the problem of the wording here; “for” girls rather than “girls loved it.”

i love how this is being voted down by somebody obviously very insecure about their own sexuality.

M’iau M’iaut

You have made your point. Let’s keep things from going down the personal attack path.

Luna Kazemaru

Well you clearly must be butt hurt that people are not sharing the same thoughts as you. Pro tip everyone gets down voted deal with. Also congrats mucking up the page with the sexist comments even tho this atelier games as sold well to both genders so your statements seem moot.

puchinri

But to vote down the above comment? That’s just being spiteful and ignorant, unless they really don’t agree with it, which is kind of gross.

Luna Kazemaru

you’ve been here long enough to know the down votes get abused.

puchinri

I really wish Disqus got rid of that. Or that certain sites could disable it.

Mr_SP

Maybe it’s being voted down by people who realise that you are not actually capable of looking at the underwear of your party members, there is only one party member with a skimpy outfit, and while you can very easily look up Totori’s skirt, it surely wasn’t expected by the modellers, since her model doesn’t actually have a crotch in the first place.

Luna Kazemaru

And as a female I find many things wrong with his statements.

puchinri

It’s not as though plenty of females don’t also take in many of the problematic, institutionalized elements that are culture encourages and forces down their throats. And plenty of women also “aren’t feminist” or “don’t want to be called feminist.” (At the same time, you can be a feminist and enjoy something and still call it out.)

You being a female does not mean you won’t be blind to many gender and sexuality issues, or that even if you see them, you will call them out or even care.

Lol, who said that? It’s depressing when people downvote a comment that only says, “more games might be aimed at ladies” and “I like FPS.” What in there is downvote worthy? Because if more games being aimed at female audiences is downvote-worthy to some people, that is incredibly depressing. x’D;

Luna Kazemaru

So I hate women because I don’t agree with you not that I down voted you since I don’t care for that system but hey I guess I hate my own gender :3

puchinri

What system? x’D;

I didn’t say you hated women because you don’t agree, but if you did downvote, that does look bad, because what part of encouraging devs to actually look at a good portion of their (neglected, female) audience is a bad thing? Really, what part? Why does that deserve a downvote? Even if you downvoted just the “as a female gamer, I like FPS part,” would you really downvote someone just for saying that they personally like FPS? Really?

And I don’t know if you hate your own gender. There are plenty of women that do, usually because of institutionalized sexism, and it’s not like they have an agenda or anything. If you hate your gender, that has nothing to do with me. But it doesn’t like great for your feelings on games being aimed at female audiences if you feel someone saying it’s nice to see deserves downvoting.

Ladius

While it’s true the game has some (rather tame and playful) fanservice geared to the male otaku audience, its portrayal of female characters is all but sexist.

Its whole plot is meant to show how female characters can indipendently pursue professional success, economical and emotional independence and their personal agendas without necessarily rely on males or romancing them (you can play the whole game with a 100% female party). Totori may be a really shy person at the beginning, but depending on your action she can become a warrior, an alchemist, an adventurer or the savior of a distant land. The Arland saga also has a wide array of female characters linked to different tropes, showing a broad variety of women characters aside from the “damsel in distress” ones commonly employed in jrpgs, and there’s a big emphasis on women supporting each other.

Honestly, the Atelier series as a whole can be considered otome in many ways, except you aren’t forced to delve into love stories. It’s no wonder the series has a big female fanbase, and it’s the only jrpg franchise to spawn an otome spin-off.

MrTyrant

I think most girls would love some of the otome elements in Atelier, the games looks clearly girly to me even if you said they are stereotypically sexist ir also has a light-hearted story with some drama behind.

I mean Im a man and I like the Arland Trilogy but more because I find the “plot” or characters and the alchemist system. I like the ending of some men, the girls have their harem too.

I’ve enjoyed some of the Atelier titles myself! I got bored with Totori pretty quickly, but I enjoyed Marie, Annie and the Iris games.

I have a real beef with Atelier Meruru, which admittedly I haven’t played but I have seen the trailers for. Transforming Rorona into a baby is a perfect example of the Japanese hegemonic masculinity’s desire to subjugate women by making them into helpless babies or dehumanizing them. This is a common trope found in many video games and other forms of new media, notably within the music videos of girl-group AKB-48.

Ladius

No offence, but I think the fact you haven’t played Meruru is the real reason you can say those things about the game with a straight face,

Play it, and you will see how Rorona’s rejuvenation is handled in a comical, absolutely playful manner linked with her own alchemic subplot, and has absolutely nothing to do with any “hegemonic masculine desire” (if anything, that “hegemonic desire” would be Astrid’s), even more so in the context of a series where female characters have the center stage and are portrayed as independent persons that can achieve everything with their own power.

Boba Bob

While i don’t agree with Robert’s point, you’re really not doing that much of a better job with the hints of feminism in your reply, it’s a game for crying out loud.

Ladius

I’m not sure what exactly is wrong in replying to someone who pan a game he hasn’t played because of supposed “hegemonic male desires” by showing him how it’s actually a game that employs female characters in a favorable, positive and independent light.

I’m not the one who brought up this kind of arguments in the first place, I’m simply answering them, and I actually agree most debates of this kind tend to be overblown, Then again, wouldn’t you try to counter an argument you feel completely out of place by someone who hasn’t even played the game he is criticizing?

are you sure? everything is political, even fictional stories. we’re talking about the author here.

Ladius

To be honest, I fear the only “political” facet of this whole argument is your attempt to paint with uncalled for hyperboles the narrative implications of a joke character in a game you haven’t played, just to carry out your personal agenda.

Edit: To talk about the author in a meaningful way you still need to actually experience herhis work.

haha! you guys are a hoot. leave it to the gaming community to react with personal offense to critical analysis.

Ladius

I guess this kind of condescending reply is a nice way to avoid facing the fact that you’re crticizing something you haven’t even played, all the while disregarding the fact this is one of the extremely few series to go against the same male-geared stereotypes you seem to be against.

Edit: I never offended you in any way, I simply called you out for how baseless and exaggerated some of your criticism have been, and for the way you’ve avoided answering the points others have made.
If you really want to attempt any sound critical analysis, please try to experience and understand what you want to criticize before attacking it, especially when you try to judge not only the game’s script, but its author’s will.

Didn’t you just “attack” the community with ad hominem with this post yourself?

You’re comment about how the “Japanese hegemonic masculinity’s desire to subjugate women by making them into helpless babies or dehumanizing them”, loses it’s value in this argument because a character aging backwards, or becoming younger is a plot device that’s been around for awhile in general fiction. From on top of my head, Futurama does it in an episode, and Goku in Dragonball GT becomes young again, for reasons I don’t even know (I haven’t watched it, nor do I intend to). You could argue that this decision was meant to pander to the otakus and the creepy pedophiles. While the target demographic is quite different from the norm, I’m pretty sure there’s maybe the hot springs scene that “sexualizes” Rorona. She wears clothes at all times and unlike something like in something like Neptunia, her underwear isn’t exposed. There’s also a hot springs scene with all the males, and I believe that scene exposes bare buttocks of a male for a brief moment. I will mention again that the younger Rorona has been received poorly even in Japan.

This has been pointed out by a number of other members, but let me point it out again. Your so called “critical analysis” has been irrelevant the moment you said you haven’t played the game. You can’t call something CRITICAL when you haven’t even experienced what the game, film, anime, cartoons, comics, or whatever is offering. You’d be doing an analysis of trailers and information based off of videos meant to show you merely bits and pieces of the game. You can write opinion based statements, paragraphs, or make some videos expressing your feelings, sure, but you can’t call that a critical analysis. If the person hasn’t experienced the game, or isn’t literally be drowning in trailers and spoilers to be informed of the game, you probably shouldn’t make such a strong comment on the game. You can’t expect people to listen to you when he or she makes such a strong statement without any concrete evidence. Your points are purely speculation and may be completely inaccurate in the final product.

puchinri

The problem is, nothing exists in a vacuum. Especially fictional works. Nothing cannot ever be free of our world’s social and/or political elements. That much is evident in the game even, given that it is aimed at very specific audiences (otaku audiences quite a bit, that enjoy lolis).

puchinri

Having a lead character center stage (indepdent or not) does not she cannot and will not be the focus of great male gaze and male-(otaku-)aimed attention. It is very heavy in a lot of works.

Ladius

No one is saying the Arland trilogy hasn’t a component of otaku fanservice (as tame and playful as it is), in fact I plainly said so in my first post in this thread. That said, almost every fictional female character has been or will be the focus of some “male attention” regardless of her fanservice level or the intention of their creators, but that shouldn’t mean we are free to disregard the role of those characters and the message it carries in the game’s narrative.

That’s especially true in the context of rpg plots, where female heroines are generally seen as partners of the male heroes, unable to tackle any challenge without being helped along the way. In this context, the Atelier series is one of the most progressive, and it’s no wonder it’s popular in the female audience to the point of being the only jrpg series to spawn an otome spin-off.

Also, putting aside the Atelier series, I would like to say that there is an extremely dangerous train of thought running in background when we refuse to analyze the role of female characters and the values they embody just because they have some percentage of male-geared fanservice, a behavior that’s sadly somewhat similar to the detestable attitude of real world people used to insult and devalue a woman because she likes to dressact in a way they deem immoral, making them think she is nothing but a living libido catalyst while completely disregarding everything else about her. This is often the case with the prejudices against attractive women in important political or economic roles (maybe with some insulting gossip mixed for good measure).

Extremizing this kind of reasoning, the only “meaningful” female characters would be the ones purportedly designed to be ugly and unappealing (because even the most in-character portrayal of sexuality could be subjectively considered as pandering, and in some instances it could even be right) or the ones that try to reject their own sexuality, since they would convey some sort of “pure” idea that wouldn’t be tarnished by the gazes of lustful males (unless someone with bizarre fetishes start liking them, I guess), while a character designed to be more appealing would be uncerimoniously confined to the “pandering bait” role without even trying to analyze its role. Even in the realm of fiction, though, this attitude can be just as sexist as the excessive pandering it tries to condemn, albeit for opposite reasons.

Edit: Sorry for the wall of text, I didn’t realize how much I was writing.

puchinri

I wish that tame and playful part would stop being thrown in. Using females as fanservice, especially in larger culture is not “tame and playful.” It’s BS. And if you do not see or realize that, fine, but don’t tell others that see or worse yet, have to deal with it that it’s not as bad as it seems. And the problem is not being the focus of male attention, but being created for male attention. I can give you a list of creators, titles and characters that such does not apply to, but it doesn’t matter if people have this mentality of “it’ll always exist, so stop calling it out.”

We do not stop analyzing parts of them because there is fanservice, we need to analyze everything as a whole. If there is a strong, female lead but she is often subjugated to fanservice, we need to examine that! We do not give the creators a pass for being progressive if they are not entirely being progressive. Yes, we are thankful for that part and say as much, but we still need to look at, call out and talk about the issues at hand.

Just being good looking doesn’t even have anything to do with it. Obviously. Are most male leads ugly? Heavens no (of course, that still lends to male power fantasy syndromes), but why someone is good look or how their features are created or aimed at audiences makes a huge difference. If the female is good looking, that’s no loss. If she is also in skimpy clothing (and/or also has those silly, “female poses” is part of the problem).

It’s fine to write a lot. While I am glad you’re passionate about the issue, it’s a shame you’re on a slightly different side and not seeing the issue entirely. I get that Robert’s wording may have been upsetting to some, but his point was right and it’s a really, sad shame that people aren’t realizing it. This is how gaming culture is. It’s depressing.

Boba Bob

Hold on a minute puchinri, you make it sound as if females are the only ones being used as fanservice in the media, that’s what is actually BS, i’m not surprised many users here are pissed with the feminism going on, if you’re gonna adress a “problem”, then adress it with both genders in mind, and if you think fanservice is a problem then our society is never going to move forward, maybe we should just go back to the dark ages.

Ladius

My issue with your post is that you seem unwilling to properly analyze fanservice as a broad category composed by lots of different things made in lots of different cultural contexts on lots of different media to appeal lots of different audiences, instead trying to pass a black and white viewpoint that mixes everything up in the same category.

Humanity’s instincts will always play a role in creating underlying sexual metaphors, tensions, references or portrayals in our race’s cultural output (and that goes for female-geared fanservice, too, even if that of course has still a lot of room to grow compared to its male counterparts), but trying to say all fanservice is the same is actually a way to help the most gross and pandering contents get a free pass by making them blend in with far tamer contents, and is rather useless in the context of a proper analysis of a single piece.

Proper understanding and contextualization is the key difference between random moral crusades and legitimate criticism, and refusing to notice obvious differences in the portrayal of those tropes only leads to skewed generalizations that will help no one understanding the situation. That’s why the point of the other user was completely faulty in my eyes – not because it couldn’t be applied to some examples of fanservice, but because he tried to push it on a work he didn’t even experience first hand.

This doesn’t lead to the “stop calling it out!”, but rather to the “try to know, understand and contextualize what you’re criticizing and to understand how it works in its context before trying to judge it”.

puchinri

As much as I am glad to see you do seem to genuinely care about these issues, I feel like you’re lacking a lot of knowledge and understanding, and I doubt my input is helping to fill that in or that you’ll understand, so I’ll probably make this my last comment aimed at you (specifically) for this discussion (and probably the thread as a whole).

My main problem is, when you have fanservice that does focus on characters specifically, and their appearance at that (in general, trope-fanservice like tsundere bugs me too, but obviously, lolibait stuff or sexualized fanservice is just irritating and gross usually), the context does not matter. People can be educated about that kind of fanservice and know why it can be problematic (I think there can be spaces for it, but that’s just an entirely separate topic that I won’t even broach here).

Everything is a legitimate concern (or “crusade”, if you really want to frame it that way). Just because it is a lesser issue, does not it should not be addressed (unless someone is intentionally derailing a topic or struggle, but then again, saying something should be ignored in favor or “bigger issues” is also derailing).

I may not be able to do not much on a political standpoint personally (though I may try my best), but because I as a person associate and operate more on a (pop) cultural level, I can spread awareness there and open criticism and such, which helps with many huge, relevant issues. And any time we tackle smaller issues, we also work our way up to larger ones. If more people at least called out fanservice and stuff – even in their own spaces, regardless of their enjoyment (or lack thereof with it), that would work toward lessening sexualization and objectification of females a lot. Because many creators think it’s okay or even better to do so, and know that they can get away with it to some degree (and that it is encouraged by society in many, institutionalized ways) that they do it. But if we go, “hey guys, thanks for the awesome work, but there’s some problematic stuff here,” we tell them that it is not okay (or even just making each other aware and more educated on the issues goes a long way). And of course, this goes to anything. Not just sexism, but also racism, homophobia, any problems with cis-gendered stuff, etc.

Also, when you mentioned Robert going, “I took a gender studies class and am smarter than you,” there’s missing the fact that taking a gender studies class does a lot for some. Technically, it would make him more educated on a lot of the issues (especially if it’s a major-oriented class rather than a minor/general studies one). It’s not the only way to become educated on these issues, but certainly, after I took a Race, Ethnic and Gender studies class, I saw even more things and came to be able to realize and call out more issues (many places I visit on the internet also help though, especially with how much I’m learning and trying to understand and be an ally to more groups).

Well, again, I can’t change your view on the matter if that’s how you choose to see it, and it’s nice to see that you want to be an ally, but I can’t see you entirely being an actual ally with some of the blocks you (probably unintentionally) have put. I can suggest visiting places like BorderHouseBlog, Racalicious and maybe even TheMarySue to get better understandings on these things (the first link is one focused on gaming in general, especially, while the second is more versatile and covers everything, and the third is nerd culture in general), but then again, if it isn’t really an interest and you’re content with where you’re at, it was nice having a mostly civil discussion.

(Edit: Also, maybe JaySmooth on youtube just for fun? He’s always really cool to listen to, even if he’s just talking about pop culture randomly or something.)

Ladius

In my eyes, the first issue with this kind of approach is that it’s often highly counterproductive, since anyone aside from activists (and even then, only the ones sharing your ideological viewpoints) will be unable to cater to your point of view, and will simply feel you’re making broad, unsustainable generalizations, reacting in a way that will actually legitimize, even only implicitely, the worst kind of “fanservice” just because they see it put in the same category as contents that range from being harmless or playful to, sometimes, being actual attempts at deconstructing the tropes they’re built on.

Maybe you feel that generalizing is the best way to fight the issues you’ve chosen to tackle, attacking the common denominator without addressing the way it’s employed in each piece, but by doing so you are actually choosing to put your own ideological frame before the complexity of countless creators, brutally simplifying their mindsets, their values, their cultural contexts, their implicit and overt intentions and the way their chosen audience had received them, all key factors in elaborating any meaningful analysis (I won’t even mention the influence of organized criticism on creative freedom and lawmaking in the context of contemporary works, since that would be an even bigger can of worms).

Even if sometimes we like to think otherwise, we should always remember how determinism is but a detrimental simplification, and how archetypes aren’t eternal Platonic ideas we can fight or study as independent entities, without reaching out to the women and men who actually gave them life. That doesn’t mean refusing to recognize common trends, but in doing so we should never forget they’re made up by countless single instances that are often unique and irreplaceable.

Given the importance you put on the interlocutor’s lack of knowledge in the field you’ve chosen to use as your argumentative backbone, please understand how, in turn, your approach can seem extremely narrow and deterministic for anyone who devoted her life to humanistic studies and value complexity, cultural relativism and contextualization as key parts of any critical process, both inside and outside the field of entertainment.

This doesn’t mean you can’t read the same texts (in a broad sense) using the feminist cultural anthropology mindset, or even an extension of the male-female deconstructivist approach to criticism, but using it as your only hermeneutical tool while refusing even only to consider other facets of the pieces you’re trying to analyze won’t only make your arguments less effective and create unneeded walls between you and those who actually share your values, but in the long run could also damage your ability to understand how others perceive reality and to fight your battles in the most efficent ways (please don’t read this last passage as anything but a sympathetic suggestion on my part, since I used to have a similar mindset and can understand people who take their principles to the extreme).

That said, thanks for the links you provided, even if I could have the same issues with their viewpoints it never hurts to see things from another perspective.

p.s. I never wrote a single word about that other user’s academical situation (I try to avoid that kind of approach, if possible), so I fear you mixed up some other person’s posts with mine.

The reason I haven’t played Meruru is because every bit of press and every review I’ve read has unanimously stated Meruru is a terrible protagonist, and I don’t want to spend $60 to go on a 60 hour quest with a loathesome character.

And also because I got bored with Totori pretty quick, even though I pre-ordered and imported it.

My problem’s not just with infantilization, it’s with ‘moe’ in general.

Boba Bob

If your problem is with “moe” in general then you’re going to have a hard time enjoying japanese games and communicating with the fandom.

I disagree heavily with this statement. I think it’s unfair to say that you aren’t a fan of Japanese games if you dislike moe. The people that are tolerant of moe are not the majority of the audience at all.

Ladius

See, there are lot of differences between this post and the ones you wrote before. No one would even dream to criticize you because you didn’t buy a game whose character design you find unappealing, especially after having tried the previous entry, nor would someone try to make you reconsider the value of Meruru’s character since it’s obvious that kind of judgements are pretty subjective.

The whole issue was trying to push an extremely strong analysis of a joke character while you’re factually unable to judge it in the context of the game it was made for.

As for the rest, I would never want moe to become the only kind of art direction in Japanese entertainment, so I can relate with you to an extent. Then again, otakus tend to use “moe” in such a broad way that criticizing it as if it was a formalized concept is kinda tricky.

As far as I know, the child ver. Rorona wasn’t exactly a hit in Japan. There was a poll in Gamespot Japan some time ago and the older Rorona won in large numbers. There’s that, and a lot of 2ch fans were outraged when the younger Rorona was revealed. Hell, I’ve yet to see people that actually LIKED young Rorona.

puchinri

Huh. That’s kind of the problems I had with them. In Japan especially, the game has a heavier lean on the lolibait factor (which is obviously intentional), but I guess a lot of people here didn’t care or ignored it (which is very sad and problematic). I mean, the whole loli issue in Japan has a lot of problematic elements, even without the actual infantilizing part.

anarchy_panty

You’re making this all sound far more vicious and intentional than it likely is. I’m not denying that there’s sexism present, but I doubt that it’s born from an active patriarchal conspiracy as you seem to think.

You’re still in your first or second year of study, aren’t you?

Boba Bob

I don’t see how the game is sexist, if pantyshots are considered sexist, then topless male characters must be sexist too, i don’t want people to know how the nipples of my gender look.

Always love when it’s a male who whips out all the catchphrases. You forgot to put something about male privilege in there.

Ouch My Head Said Dionysus

Just because I’m male doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to be critical of something. I didn’t mention ‘male privliege’ because it didn’t pertain to the discussion. Unless you’d like to add your own two cents, by all means!

Also I’m a student of Japanese cultural & gender studies, being critical of this kind of stuff is part of my academic field.

Peace Legacy

Being critical does not neccessarily mean you are right.

You are scrutinizing too much in a few aspects, and missing the bigger picture

…and to be fair, the game is tame (comparing to current industry malegaze standard that have desensitized us and rendering these games as normal) , you would have to be a nun or something to even find this stuff sensually provoking.

…and funny how a male gamespot reviewer said the same thing, and most female commenter find him baffling (and think the game is just plain normal).

I don’t think you are being critical, you are just finding an excuse to whiteknighting

I didn’t say I was right, nor am I white-knighting, whatever that means. I’m voicing my opinion: I think Atelier is a bit squicky.

puchinri

Wow, really? That is not a nice attitude to have about that. If he’s a guy and sees (potential) sexism and tries to call it out, discouraging it or getting snarky about it is not the way to go.

As if other guys don’t already have to deal with being put down by guys for a number of reasons, now they’re not allowed to be feminist?

Nemesis_Dawn

Males like to go on crusades. History has shown that. And this thread shows it, as well. He’s going to right all the world’s wrongs by pointing out how awful a game he’s never played is. And going to attempt to shame anyone who sees it as playful and innocent. There’s a world of difference in the treatment of women between Duke Nukem Forever and Atelier Totori, but you wouldn’t know that from reading his posts, where he tries to whip out as many feminist catchphrases as possible, without appearing to actually understand the concepts or the motivations behind the things in the game themselves.

“Transforming Rorona into a baby is a perfect example of the Japanese hegemonic masculinity’s desire to subjugate women by making them into helpless babies or dehumanizing them. This is a common trope found in many video games and other forms of new media, notably within the music videos of girl-group AKB-48” sounds like he’s quoting his first year gender studies paper, instead of actually discussing the issues.

He is crusading, not discussing. And it’s something that I notice males tend to do whenever they find a cause to stand behind. It’s a subtle form of sexism, in and of itself, in that his hyperbole is a sign that he feels that women need protection from an unjust world and only a male as strong and enlightened as himself is able to provide it.

There was no feminist backlash against the Atelier games, so he is going to manufacture it and save women from the evil Japanese patriarchy prevalent in the series. Never mind that it’s actually a series that shows that women do not need to depend on men to achieve their dreams. There are pantyshots, by god!

puchinri

So. . . what’s wrong with righting a wrong? Why should there ever be a problem with calling out a issue in our society, no matter where it exists? This isn’t even about shaming. He did not start off shaming anyone, and if people feel shamed that, “oh no! My fav game that has lolis is being called out for loli fanservice!” then they should feel ashamed about being defensive instead of realizing/recognizing it, admitting it and then moving on! You can enjoy something that is problematic, but pretending that issues don’t exist is condescending and unhealthy (as a whole and in small ways).

Oh, goodness. Do tell. What in the world is a feminist catchphrase? Better yet, what in the world does feminist mean to you? Because regardless of which wave or what people personally believe or some say, feminism always stands for, first and foremost, the equality of everyone. So why in the world is being a feminist so evil? Why is that belief so upheld on this thread? This is really scary to me.

That was him discussing the issue! That is part of the issue! That they tried to go more lolicon with their already loli character (and the character that was the oldest and least close to loli at that point) is fairly telling. It was an issue and he pointed it out. If you don’t see the problem, fine, but don’t attempt to shame someone over it or pretend it doesn’t exist. Gaming as a whole will never grow if people keep acting like calling out problems is an issue or a bad thing. Where does this mentality come from?

Feminist backlash? That sounds like some icky implications there I won’t touch, but I will say, a number of people (male and female) that enjoyed the game noted some of the unfortunate implications and issues in the Arland saga, so it’s not like this is news. We just don’t see this stuff discussed on Siliconera, and I guess because a lot of people here can’t handle it.

And again, you can have independent, strong female leads and still objectify them. It happens often, believe it or not. I think it’s great to celebrate the gender and/or sexuality strengths, but that does not mean you ignore the problems and weak points. I love Sailor Moon and it does many awesome, beautiful things with representation and such, but it does have some body issues that also deserve calling out. Just like I also love gaming as a whole and more progressive stuff happens, but there’s a crapload of gross things that still need calling out and addressing.

Nemesis_Dawn

But the thing is, he’s not actually righting any wrongs. What he’s doing is actually creating more damage than good. When guys start whipping out catchphrases like “male gaze,” specialized phrases that say, “I took a gender studies class and am therefore smarter than you,” do you know what the majority of the audience does? They tune out. Or they see an artform being attacked by morality police and they dismiss the entire movement as censors and prudes.

There are real problems facing women in the world. Reproductive freedoms in the United States are under attack from the religious right. There’s an epidemic of rape and sexual harassment in India. Paid maternity leave is still a battle here.

And yet, what is the white knight above concerned with? We might see a panty shot from a character in game that stressed the bonds of female friendship. A game that not only appeals to females (amusingly, my fiancee’s first words upon seeing me playing Atelier Totori was, “My god, I love the clothing in this game!”), but might actually move just a tiny bit towards helping males develop just a little bit more empathy towards the opposite sex.

But to make a big deal out of something that most women aren’t even bothered by is counterproductive. My fiancee thinks the fan service is funny. She doesn’t find it demeaning or dehumanizing. I’ve never heard her, when we’ve played Street Fighter together, say, “Cammy is dressed like that in order to inspire male gaze.” I’ve heard her say, “Oh my god, her outfit would be so uncomfortable to wear” and then laugh about it.

Do you want to know the best way to actually address these issues, rather than making a lot of people’s eyes rolls? Gather together with fellow female gamers and make your own games that don’t fall into any of the tropes that you find so offensive. May sound like a lot of work, but if it’s something that you really feel is that much of an important issue, then the work should be worth it. The same goes for any entertainment you find objectionable. Make your own. That’s how progress gets made.

There are so many issues concerning women that you would find the average intelligent male agrees with you on and would be willing to help join the fight against, such as the aforementioned reproductive issues, but when you’re busy shaming everyone for the entertainment they enjoy, all you do is scare away potential allies.

FitzpatrickPhillips

Before you go parroting other people, how about you actually look up the words you’re using before you use them. You did not use sexist correctly.

I wouldn’t bash Kotaku so much regarding niche jrpgs: their resident jrpg fan, Schreier, has done a lot of coverage on this kind of games, even on titles like Growlanser Wayfarer of Time that have been ignored by most big outlets. He’s made a wonderful XSeed interview last week, too.

I’ve heard of some of that, which puts me off the Arland saga quite a bit (which is a shame), but I can see some of the appeal for female players (and a lot of female players are used to having to rcognize but ignore the problematic elements and gross fanservice).

Boba Bob

“gross fanservice” That’s when you voided yourself of any ounce of credibility.

SerendipityX

I would say the fan service is more “annoying” than “gross” to female players. We get why they put it there, but it tends to get gross when its just shoe-horned in for no reason. Most of us just have to grow an immunity to it, and move on.

puchinri

I’m not sure I even care why. You added nothing of substance to this either. Moving along~.
(Can’t say I care to have credibility with anyone that feels that way and does not care about reasoning.)

Höhlenmensch

Far-left feminists like yourself spouting their gender mainstreaming propaganda over everything contribute to the degeneration of our society.

I wish you would stop what you accuse others of doing: Condescendingly trying to tell people how they are supposed to live their lives.

Let’s not get carried away here. There are ways to have a productive discussion about this subject without lashing out at someone just because they don’t like a game that you do.

He isn’t telling anyone how to live their lives, merely pointing out something he perceives to be a common problem. I think if you look around, you’ll find enough people, even within the games community, that share his opinion.

puchinri

I am so depressed that this comment got any upvotes at all. Anything with “far-left” feminists and “gender mainstreaming propaganda” is very disappointing.

I wouldn’t feel bad about it, puchinri. The people that are outspoken in the comments section of articles like these are the vocal minority, so it makes sense that anything perceived as a threat to that particular niche of games is immediately downvoted, with little or no thought given to the actual argument at hand.

Sales and the reception of these titles by the games community at large are far better indicators of a lot of the issues being discussed. I’m sure the vast majority of people that play games would agree with the stance you’re taking.

puchinri

That’s a good point, and that does make me less worried/disappointed. Thank you for that.

I’m glad for that, and it means a lot. Thanks~.
I really feel like as a whole, the gaming community wants the best and I feel like there are strides heading there, but moments like this kind of make my eye twitch and strike me right through the heart.

I know what you mean. I feel the same way every time a game is so obviously in bad taste, but you get the horde of angry fanboys defending it and calling everyone a prude, regardless of the fact that there’s a half-naked 15-year-old chick in the screenshots.

You just learn to ignore it. Again, I think the sales of these games—not just in the west, but also in Japan, where they’re some of the most niche titles out there—says a lot.

I just assume that in most cases, the overly defensive behaviour comes from people who long for the PS2 days again, and don’t want to admit that console RPGs from Japan are a far cry from what they used to be.

Boba Bob

Wait, so you’re telling me that a game is bad and no one should defend because there is a half naked 15 year old chick in the screenshots? Lol, and yes, prude is the word.
seriously, i thought you were better than that Ishaan.

We normally don’t talk about how we approach our playtests, but I’ll give you a little insight as to how we approached this one in particular. For starters, every other site on the Internet slammed Mugen Souls for what it was, and rightfully so.

Now, playtests on Siliconera aren’t reviews. They aren’t scored, and thus, we can’t use them to get ourselves Metacritic exposure. They have no fixed format. Every playtest is thought up on-the-fly and the things we talk about in each one can be very flexible.

In the case of Mugen Souls, believe me, Kris had a good many nasty things to say about it, which we collectively decided we shouldn’t publish, because it wouldn’t add anything to the discussion. If the playtest sounds like it’s being positive, that’s because we made a concentrated effort to point out what the game was trying to do, before pointing out that it’s also a pile of rubbish.

Boba Bob

I’m not going to claim mugen souls is a good game, i’m going to state my opinion and say that there are people who did enjoy the game, be it because of the “naked 15 year old”, or the crazy japanese fetishes, or whatever, the fact is that you went on and insulted those group of people who enjoyed the game and labelebed them as “fanboys”.
Don’t do that Ishaan, seriously, don’t.

Don’t try to avoid the subject here. No one’s saying they aren’t human. We all have our preferences, but you know exactly the type of people of people I’m talking about. The ones that lash out without giving any thought to the opposing party’s feelings, the ones that expect everyone else in the world to share the exact same interests as them.

In fact, you just proved my point by calling me a prude when I said that I find half-naked 15-year-olds in games to be distasteful. So I think you understand very well what I’m talking about.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I would imagine that women in Japan have grown used to seeing a lot of female videogame characters depicted the way they are, and are able to tune it out and try to enjoy the games for what they are beyond the fanservice/pandering element.

It’s kind of like what @puchinri:disqus said in another comment—so many women have just had to learn to deal with playing as male characters in games because most publishers simply don’t include an option to choose your gender.

So, assuming that Japanese women are able to tune the fanservice out, I can see how they would like the story aspect of these games.

Ladius

I agree, and I feel the same can be said of western female gamers dealing with western gaming tropes. Moe may be a trait of the Japanese entertainment industry, but fanservice and pandering are worldwide trends.

Japanese gaming at least has the otome genre, while female-geared fanservice in entertainment has been lacking in this particular context in the western context. In this context, it’s interesting to notice how some oelvns are trying to use the otome template in the west.

I feel like developers the west have done a pretty good job of late, trying to do away with pandering, actually. The new Lara Croft, Faith from Mirror’s Edge, Commander Shepard. I agree that pandering is a worldwide trend, but I think most would agree that it’s had a much more powerful (and negative) impact on the Japanese industry than it has in the west.

(Note that I’m talking about pandering with regard to female characters, specifically.)

puchinri

Thank you very much, Ishaan. I think this is a huge point a lot of people aren’t realizing, or are simply forgetting (not just Robert, but a lot of people). Women have to deal with it, but it does not always mean they like it. Sometimes, they just accept it. But at times, they will point it out. Does not mean they stop liking something, but still. (This also applies to men that feel the same.)

Boba Bob

I love how the games that are widely known to be popular with guys and male Otaku are becoming also popular with girls, Atelier Totori is full of cute lolis and bishoujos, Persona 4 Golden and the persona series are known to be the most popular RPG with male gamers, dating them heroines and spending hardcore hours into the game, not to mention the addition of Marie…and Hatsune Miku project DIVA, well, if you went to comiket, you’d know lol, that and the fact that not many female players own a Ps3/vita…ermehgerd, what’s happening to the world?

puchinri

I think the thing is, SMT and Persona games were already popular with female and male audiences, and same for the Atelier series. That certain titles in the series (or the series in general) became popular with otaku does not mean the female audiences already invested (also otaku or not) or going to abandon it. I think it’s sad that the Persona team didn’t try to cater to female audiences more (I notice them starting to less in a way), but I think Atlus already has a good group of female fans (and ladies have to get used to enjoy titles aimed at guys anyway, because it all overruns the market).

Boba Bob

The SMT franchise was popular with male players and otaku from the get go, that’s their main target demographic and that’s the vast majority of consumers, which is why they can’t cater to the female audience, who are a minority of the consumers, because if they do, there’d be critcism, some people might be turned off by the content, etc resulting in less sales and less success. my point is that, for example take an FPS game, now if you were to put in that FPS game flowers, romance and all that girly stuff, do you think it’ll attract some male players, if any at all? No, that’s pretty much how it is with the SMT series and any other games.

SerendipityX

lol Can’t appeal to the small female audience? Then what the heck were they trying to do with P3P? Atlus can still target their main demographic while also appealing to the female audience. They(like many companies) just choose not to. You make it sound like it’s impossible for Atlus to do this.

Boba Bob

Pretty sure if they saw any success in P3P through the catering to the female audience they would have done the same with P4G instead of making it more male otaku oriented, it’d be worth it, but they didn’t do it, and that says alot.

SerendipityX

It says a lot about Atlus, actually. It’s pretty obvious that its a step backwards for them and I’m pretty sure P3P wasn’t some giant flop that made them go “it no sell, no more FeMC!”.

I’m not arguing that it’s not the main demographic, but the series has always had its female fanbase too, well before P4 and even P3 came along.

And it’s not like they can’t cater to female audiences. In fact, I’d say they certainly do in ways (there’s this thing called a periphery demographic, which quite a few game companies handle well actually). Also, you’re going by extreme stereotypes of stuff typically aimed at women and female audiences, not what they genuinely enjoy on their own. (That’s also implying a number of males don’t enjoy these things and they’ll be turned off by “girly” elements.)

AndyFe

Wow again i must be really girly then because I love Atelier Totori, I even imported the Vita one just to play it.I’m kinda surprised at Persona 4 being on the list.

Kamille

These new Atelier games are made for perverted otakus and sick loli lovers but they are so cute that people think they are games for girls.

-Kamille Bidan

MrTyrant

@Kamille

You Kisama Yatsu!

FitzpatrickPhillips

lol

Renaldi Saputra

wut? Persona 4 The Golden as the 2nd best girl’s game??
it’s kind of hillarious, seriously.. I thought only male can enjoy it fully..

yea, i know that.. it does same to most of every games (except for the games that are intended only for girls).. female can enjoy them too but not as fully as male does.. but this Persona 4 Golden is kind of surprising.. maybe bcos of the male characters factor..

Boba Bob

Well, females can fully enjoy it but i do agree that males are able to get the full experience out of it.

Renaldi Saputra

yes, some of female can enjoy it fully, but it’s just ‘some’..
means that the rest can be either can’t enjoy at all or can’t enjoy fully.. bcos most of girls only like games such as dating sims, rhythm, fashioning, cooking, etc..
well, you know

CirnoLakes

Popular with girls in Japan: Atelier, Miku Hatsune, and Persona
Popular with guys in the United States: Call of Duty, Halo, and Gears of War

Something is very, very wrong with my demographic.

MrTyrant

What is popular for western girls? i heard they love to kill zombies and survival horror games….also preety boys in otome games haha.

SerendipityX

That’s actually a very good question. What is popular with us western ladies? *thinking pose*

No, no, no~! D: How could you even suggest such a thing??? >.<http://i.qkme.me/3r7kyf.jpg
…
Lol, just kidding :P. I'm not into Twilight myself, like at all, but there are plenty of us western girls who go ballistic over it~ I… don't quite get it, actually ^_^"" lol.

Twilight is probably a case of the right thing at the right time. I know that it’s managed to capture a fair share of the shoujo manga market, and the reason for this—according to various people involved in manga—is that, unlike Japan, girls in the west don’t graduate from shoujo to josei as they get older.

This is primarily due to a significant lack of josei being licensed for western territories, so when those shoujo fans grow older, there’s no manga to appeal to them, and so they turn to things like Twilight, which fulfills that same fantasy need, and is a little bit more grown up than your typical shoujo series.

puchinri

I feel it’s the wrong thing, but it was certainly right for Meyer.

In general, I can agree with that sentiment, but I also think how largely different our markets are and how things are handled is part of that. It’s pretty much romance novels for women, but it’s shared between younger and older female audiences and unlike any Japan, the US really does not have categories that cater to female audiences or try to (like say, comics especially; or cartoons as a very depressing example). Part of it also is, our “genres” are our demographics, where in Japan, you have multiple genres in your demographics (shoujo manga have been the most violently traumatizing for me).

In the end, I guess female audiences do have to latch on to what they can, and I suppose, regardless of gross implications and messages, they will (and they’re also taught/encouraged to ignore or be blind to those messages on a whole).

I agree, the U.S. is pretty far behind Japan when it comes to content aimed at women. There are TV shows that I can think of, but comics and games are really far behind the curve. I even remember Marvel trying to do a shoujo line of comics at one point and then backing out of that really quickly.

It’s unfortunate, because a lot of the good shoujo/josei stuff can be very appealing to guys, too. A lot of good mystery and romance manga tends to be from the shoujo side. But again, we get such a small selection outside of Japan that you really have to scrape around for the diamonds in the rough. Arisa is one of the few I can say I genuinely enjoyed recently.

Then there’s the BL craze, too. I actually asked someone at a publisher once, why we see so much BL localized instead of regular shoujo manga nowadays, and the answer was that the BL market is apparently the most stable in the manga category. They actually compared it to romance novels, which you mentioned in your post. A dedicated group of people keep consuming them voraciously, so that’s what publishers feel safe localizing.

So, I totally get where you’re coming from. I like shoujo stuff quite a bit, and yeah, you pretty much have to settle for the few scraps you can find, that are actually appealing to people our age. I wish there were a solution.

Testsubject909

Peach Girl, touching love story, give it a look. The Manga, not the Anime. They kinda got the animation pretty damn screwy so it’s not exactly all that appealing.

Ah, high school romance is sort of unappealing to me now… I think I’m a little too old for it, heh.

Testsubject909

I understand, still, give it a shot. I know I made a coworker a few years back absolutely nuts over the series.

Testsubject909

The simplest answer to Twilight’s success that I’ve heard is that it’s Female Escapism. (edit: Obviously. I know. But hey.)

There’s a rather interesting thesis on it but… I’m just too tired and probably won’t care enough to go search up the video.

Locklear93

That’s an interesting reason, and I can see it being true. Do you feel like this is changing? Bunny Drop, for example, is published, and JManga has a whole Josei section.

MrTyrant

Twilight the game?

*me scared*

Testsubject909

There’s rumors of Twilight the TV series.

You know. My friends keeps on telling me it’s no big deal if I or anyone else goes to see the Twilight movies because so many shreaking fangirls are going to see it that the measley little amount of spare change is not going to change anything.

And I keep telling them that it does in the big picture because that’s how everyone is going to act towards everyone else and that this accumulates into a small lovely extra pool of cash for Twilight as a series to do whatever else it wants thinking that it now has a larger demographic, viewership and more money.

And they keep on shrugging me off. And that annoys me because I know they’re all intellectuals… But they’ve also lost all faith in humanity and thus don’t really think my decision alone makes a difference and then forget that everyone else is in the same boat and that if they act like this towards me they act like this towards everyone else meaning that they’re actively not discouraging intelligent people from going to support Twilight financially which does accumulate in the long run because it means we’re making something that lacks a lot of mental substance and a lot of other things all because they’re under the assumption that what they do doesn’t matter in the big picture.

I don’t know about that. Going by my experiences, I would categorize it like this:

1. Girls who dig most of Nintendo’s big franchises and play JRPGs, along with titles like Harvest Moon. (Largest category)

2. Girls who play a bit of everything. (Obviously not in the majority, just like their male counterparts)

3. Girls that are hardened otaku, play only JRPGs, BL/otome titles and games along those lines, and abhor things that don’t fall into that realm. (the minority)

Renaldi Saputra

or maybe cooking mama??
LOL

JMaster3000

Cooking Mama is a ehh… fun game > :

Luna Kazemaru

How is something wrong with your demographic just because they like those games I like them aswell I can see why they are enjoyed.

SirRichard

You’re surprised that in a culture that worships soldiers and glorifies guns, games based around shooting and war are popular?

Nothing’s wrong with your demographic because you don’t share its tastes, mate.

Peace Legacy

These are just speculation and self-reinforced gender stereotypes.
The boundaries between genders and media are something that can either base purely on rules of thumb (extremely rough accuracy), or even at time plain backward and way off the mark

SerendipityX

I find it odd that there’s no mention of Persona 3, which you know had an option of a female protagonist. Something P4G was sadly lacking.

from what i’ve read and heard, the reason was the P3P game wasn’t as successful as they were hoping for, and realized the female fanbase is actually pretty small, so they made P4G more otaku oriented, which is why i still don’t really get these “polls”.

SerendipityX

I think it has more to do with Atlus not wanting to actually re-work P4G to add in a FeMC (since the story would probably require some significant changes/work). P3 was originally written with a female protag in mind, so it was easy enough for them to do

Testsubject909

I have no clue why you’re being downvoted.

SerendipityX

Me neither, but its happening alot. Someone is on their daily troll walk.

Do you have a source for this? If true, it would be a very interesting revelation.

Outside of that, though, I think P4G was a step backwards from P3P because they didn’t include the option for a female lead character. Not only did the female lead make P3 more relatable for women, it also gave you a completely different character and side of the game to see, if you’d already completed the original.

Locklear93

The handful of women I know who played P3P would… not disagree, necessarily, but agree with strong reservations. Most of them felt like the female character was too much of a swap-in, and not enough was re-written to suit the new protagonist. Admittedly, I only know a handful of women who played it.

Oh, she was definitely not re-written from the ground up. She was 100% a “swap-in” as you called it, but I did appreciate that she had a different personality from Minato. She was more upbeat in general, like a “go-get-em” leader-type, rather than the natural-born leader with a tragic past.

It’s interesting to see men thinking because girls like something its unmanly to like it too. This is somehow common in our culture, not so much in asian culture. I saw this happen with comments on youtube about Clannad. Many men saying they like it even though they are guys, not realizing that the anime was targeting them in the first place.

Yes Atelier Totori is a game made for guys, like K-ON or Clannad are anime made for guys. It happens to be the case that guys like girls adore cute things. And note that for example K-ON didn’t have one pantyshot in it (ok a striped bowl of rice.)

Boba Bob

That’s exactly the point, while these games are apparently targeted at the male audience, as soon as someone find outs girls play it “ermehgerd, so guhrly”…

puchinri

This. It is really weird. It doesn’t help that we’re not doing much to break the mentality (nerd culture as a whole, or Western culture as a whole), but that’s how it is (for now).

Testsubject909

Not Doing might be one of the best thing we could do in the long term-Wait! Wait wait wait!

I didn’t tell you what NOT to do… Pass down social norms. That’s what we shouldn’t do. We educate children by many little things that slip our minds. Tell them what most girls or guys should or shouldn’t do. What they’re supposed to be like and whatnot, not just directly but discreetly as well.

That’s something that requires the mass collective to do. Once the majority actively stops the flow of gender roles that have been passed down for ages, then we’ll be able to have a fresher generation who will not be marked with… But then I start to think in a pessimistic manner and it just sort of immediately cut my train of thought…

Yeah. Sorry… Rejoice though. I’ll be gone for a M:TG draft with some friends in about a half an hour so no moar wall-o-texts!

puchinri

I see where you were headed, but I just meant not doing anything as in not even wanting to recognize the problem and trying to ignore it and such. x’D

That’s a good point too though~. I think a huge problem is passing down problems. That is definitely a place where no action should be taken. I do thing people should bring a voice to these issues more now, because that will help a lot (it is a huge part of any cause and change throughout history), but I guess a number of factors would really help move things along.

Testsubject909

It’s not that interesting. It’s common.

Societal norms affecting our gender roles and thus affecting how we are, what we think we should be and how we act. Some of us are luckier and have moved past those standards, but then again we’re more along the lines of weirdos who took a step away from the expectations of society and responding to them.

Weirdo in this case is neither positive nor negative. Just saying that you’re now out of the established view of the norm.

raymk

Well said old bean :D.

Testsubject909

Jolly Bloody Good Show!

Wait, why are we doing the stereotypical British people thing now?

Juuu

I think Totori is a good fit for gamers of any sort [the Atelier franchise as a whole is] but I can definitely see why it would appeal to girls, as it focuses very heavily on not only female friendship but also the mother-daughter bond AND the bond between sisters, which is pretty easy to relate to, I’d imagine. Either way, I am pleased, as more exposure/awards for Atelier is always awesome!

puchinri

This all the way around~.

anarchy_panty

So, what? A bunch of dude’s decided to vote on what they think girls will play? I really don’t understand the point of posting this as news, because there’s no way any sort of productive conversation is going to come out of it.

puchinri

Well, that certainly is how it went down. Heaven forbid someone call out a problem in everyone’s precious video games. We especially can’t have people pointing out sexism or problematic parts, oh no. It’s really disappointing that we can’t have mature conversations about that stuff on here. (Disappointing, amongst other things)

Testsubject909

Frustration and the use of sarcasm. I’ve done that before, mainly on an emotional high and I prefer to ride those emotional waves but I can tell you that unless someone takes what you say and then veers it towards a constructive end that it’s not going to go well in the long run.

Yes, that means I’m willingly being an idiot at times for the emotional release and satisfaction and I understand you need that at this moment.

Sexism, if we want to touch the subject, and I’m male so excuse my perceptions here. Is a two way street of sorts and one that’s reinforced by tradition, by society and by our own instincts. Were we left to be like animals, untrained and uneducated, we would most likely instinctively fall under certain classifications that I’m sure some advanced and evolved being would love to classify us within stereotypical roles. The part of our instincts and how we react to visual stimuli and thus to the differences between each other’s bodies is why I think we’ll always have some trace sexism towards each other no matter what happens.

Next, social and traditional. You know. I was raised by society into thinking that guys aren’t supposed to be in touch with their emotions, that those who do needs to be shunned by society and that they’ll never appeal to women which touches on the reproductive instinct that always kicks in later in life but never really mattered when you’re young, and that a real man never cries. While true that later on people tend to then say the opposite which really only creates more confusing situations. Society trains people into some specific gender molds, gender roles. Things get passed down, I wanted to be a knight and protect people when I was a kid but I never connected protecting people to protecting princesses specifically. But things like these, history, fairy tales, all that jazz has an overall impact.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we shouldn’t fight for equality, but I want to note that sexism occurs on both end in different ways. Since I didn’t fit the expected gender role. I was prosecuted, pitied and looked down on by both gender. Yes, I’m going far more into sexism in general then touching on sexism wards women or sexism in games.

Because I think this is part of the issue that tends to rarely ever be touched on. And that often when we fall into trying to speak of sexism towards women, someone just has to go Nazi and vilify all males in some way or manner. Men have suffered too and when approaching these negotiation tables as to how to try and grab society by the horns and altering the norms for the future generation, it’s not a good approach to act as if you’re the singular victim of gender classification, misrepresentation and whatnot.

Hmm…

Actually nevermind, I sort of lost my train of thought. Interestingly, just as I ran out of coffee.

puchinri

I can’t really get to the whole comment now because I’ve leaving, but I think you brought up good points (and your first two paragraphs are kind of funny), but I want to comment so I can track this back and edit it later (and not lose it amongst the page).

Testsubject909

The first two (edit: Paragraphs and the reasons why I can understand these emotions quite well, the need of that release and on the second one, the willingness to behave on an emotional level) are due to a traumatic event in my childhood when I attempted to disassociate myself from my emotions to shield myself and turtle away from pains that I was receiving from my constant bullying during a time when authority was failing and the professors were starting to actively avoid me due to my constant complaints of the unending and relentless teasing, taunting and beating I was receiving. During high school I returned to a normal flow and took a year or two to learn more about riding my emotions and diverting them in certain cases when need be.

As such when I was reacquainted with my emotions I’ve taken quite a fond liking to them and the sensations I get on certain waves despite whatever logical and reasonable things I can project from some of my reactions and how you doing?

Getting awkward yet?

Heh. I’m just pulling your leg here. Kind of. No lies in this post but I am being a bit of a dick since I’m saying this mainly because my versatile and at time poor sense of humor thinks I’d get a kick out of drawing the atypical sort of reaction one would normally have from someone suddenly expressing this sort of thing.

And reserve the pity too. It’s an event long gone as I’ve got a good strong circle of friend, the ability to be myself and express myself as I wish and a lack of care for some societal norms which tends to have a lot of people either look at me like I’m a freak or think I’m enlightened when in reality I’ve just decided to not run in circles and just completely get off subject again didn’t I?

Yes. This is also part of what I think is a fun time.

puchinri

Ouch. That sounded really scary actually. I notice we have a huge problem with bullying though, and I used to think that maybe Japan’s problem with it was worse than our’s (I think part of their problem is usually lack of outside help that really plays a part), but I’m noticing now more norms in our culture that encourage really bad, violent and generally insensitive behavior. Certain people in society really condone some scary stuff.
(Also a fairly large issue that I feels needs some serious attention, time and fixing.)

Admittedly, it is a familiar story, and I’d be able to relate to a degree (except my problem stems from family rather than peers). But good for you! Same here. I decided to kick my family to the curb for the most part and am much healthier for it, and I have a (pretty okay-good-healthy-weird-but-fun) circle of friends that I can (mostly) rely on. Yay for making progress in life, right~? (Also, going to have to make a proper reply in the morning after dessert for breakfast, because I couldn’t formulate anything intelligent enough right now.)

Also fine~. I noted earlier that I have ADD, so I tangent like mad when my brain lets me (or sometimes I have to leave what I’m doing and come back later because I realize I get off track).

Testsubject909

Not sure if I have ADD, don’t really think so.

I just enjoy letting my mind wander because I get a kick out of it.

puchinri

That’s always good~. I’d like to tell myself that my ADD has improved and I just enjoy a good tangent, but I’m not sure if that’d be lying to myself. Or, well, if it even mattered if I did lie to myself about it. Maybe I’ll start to~.

Testsubject909

Thinking on it, I have a friend who has ADD and I don’t really have any of the same attention problems he has. Actually attention isn’t my problem, it’s thought patterns which is something I do for enjoyment but remains optional…

I wouldn’t be able to tell you how best to treat your ADD by yourself. I solved some of my own personal issues myself by just taking a step back, looking at my own situation, myself as a whole with rather unforgiving and humbling honesty… And that’s the hard part. And then went to look at how to solve some situations. Of course, finding the problem and the solution to certain events is one thing. Going through with it or enacting it appropriately is another. And then there’s always the chance that you’ll lie to yourself anyways.

puchinri

That kind of reminds me of the thing I saw in Sherlock Holmes BBC ver.; which I can’t stand personally, but meh), the castle thing. Maybe you do a form of that? Which is very helpful for conducting thought and organizing one’s self.

I used to go to a doctor for it, but he wasn’t putting me on meds and the problems I had, I realized I could mostly solve on my own. I suppose my ADD isn’t as bad as it used to be? That I know I’m not lying to myself about, but I’m not sure how well I’ve either adapted to it, or just how much it’s gotten better/not become worse.

Testsubject909

I don’t really have a visualization of my thought processes.

The closest I might have ever done was to view it as a bunch of chains, interconnected subjects that could be touched upon, grab a hold of the core you were talking about and reach out into a variety of other links to explore the thoughts that connects back to the first one, maintaining a connection through the connecting details from topic to topic. The trouble then is maintaining the effort in your mental grip on the starting subject.

If you have a goal in diverging from the main subject into a different one, then it’s easier to return to the main subject at hand. Otherwise, and this is what I tend to do for fun. Let go of the subject and just ride the train of thought and enjoy the little thought experiment that comes from it.

Actually. I think my problem is I’m lazy.

Luna Kazemaru

It did fine in the miku thread just people love to throw out baseless sexism comments as always.

puchinri

Hmmm. I think they need to distinguish the difference between made for girls and what can be most enjoyable for girls. I enjoy the Atelier series and female leads are awesome, and I also love P4 (still needs a lady lead route!!), but I don’t think any of the above titles were made with ladies as the target/lead audience. Which is a shame, but not a total loss (Totori especially gives me that feel, but so does Arland in general).

It’s nice that this was even conducted though, and great to see lady gamers get more attention (I think Japan does a slightly better job of that anyway, all around).

Testsubject909

On P4. As far as I can tell, P4 was made with a male lead in mind whereas P3 was made with gender choice in mind. The original art book touches on that with some early designs for the MC where you could choose the gender. This was scrapped for time but later touched again for Persona 3 Portable which is closest to the definitive version of Persona 3, where it not for the lack of cutscenes and visuals outside of Tartarus being confined to the Visual Novel style.

As such, no offense, I don’t think we’ll ever see a FemC route for Persona 4 as it was never in their original plans. I’m not discounting the possibility that they make one nevertheless, but I just don’t really see it happening. With P4G, it seems as if they’ve accomplished what they’ve wanted. A definitive version. I hope I’m using that word correctly.

Also. It is nice to see the female demographic be represented I guess. But to me games were always a medium that I felt was gender free. It’s a game, you enjoy it because of your personal interests, not because it somehow appeals to your gender. Repeating myself here I know…

edit: To specify. Female Demographic Interest be represented. That is to say, that we get a representation here with a top 3 of what women want in games… And even then I’m dubious about it because I have no idea if they’ve filtered out male vote.

SirRichard

” It’s a game, you enjoy it because of your personal interests, not because it somehow appeals to your gender.”

It’s not an issue of appealing to gender/sex, it’s an issue of identifying with the character and immersion. It’s easy for you or me to say that gender’s not an issue, because more often than not we’re playing as guys in games, but what about women who want to play as women? It’s easier to identify with a character if they’re like you, after all, and that’s simply not the case for most games.

You mention personal interests; what if your personal interest is inserting yourself into a story and roleplaying? It’s harder for women to do that when every other protagonist is a rugged dude, and that’s the issue. What works for you doesn’t work for everyone else.

And while I’m at it;

“It is nice to see the female demographic be represented I guess.”

You guess? C’mon, mate, really?

Testsubject909

I tend to choose the lead female when I play video games. When I have the option I prefer to have a female protagonist. Not because I’m identifying with them but because I like women.

Are you saying that the only way for me to enjoy a game, as a male, is to absolutely have a male character to identify with?

Edit: Also. I would like to note my intention behind saying that: “It is nice to see the female demographic be represented I guess.”

Is NOT with In game representation. I’m talking about the female demographic interest which is what this article is focusing on. The Interest of the female demographic, or more precisely, what sort of game they like best… But even then, I have doubts that these votes were purely from one gender.

And PS. I don’t know about you… But I’ve never had any problem relating to a character no matter their gender. They go through trouble like any other human being and as such, to me, their gender don’t matter. They’re beings with feelings first, gender a far second.

SirRichard

“Are you saying that the only way for me to enjoy a game, as a male, is to absolutely have a male character to identify with?”

I’m not and you know full well I’m not, I expected better of you than to resort to being disingenuous. What I’m saying is not everyone is you, mate, and you don’t seem to be grasping that.

You prefer playing as female characters when you can? Good for you, I imagine a lot of people do. But a lot of people also prefer playing as characters who are the same sex as they, and that option is lacking throughout the industry. I’m not saying every game must give the option, I’m not saying every game should avoid having a male protagonist, I’m just saying that more diversity is nice, more choice is nice and that’s where the industry’s falling short.

It might not matter to you, fair enough, but that doesn’t mean it’s a non-issue to blow off.

EDIT: “But I’ve never had any problem relating to a character no matter their gender.”

Again, good for you, but that’s you. Not everyone is you, not everyone is like that. Having a character be the same sex as you makes it easier for people, maybe not me or you but certainly a lot of people, to identify with any given character.

Dude, it’s TestSubject. For all the walls of text he loves to post, I’ve never once seen him stay on topic and actually address the subject at hand, rather than go off on a thousand different tangents that lead nowhere. :P

SirRichard

Really beginning to see that here, yeah.

Testsubject909

Again. My deepest of apologies for how my brain works.

It’s how it rolls.

SirRichard

It’s alright, mate, we all have our quirks, it’ll just take some getting used to.

Testsubject909

Like I said. I write my thoughts straight off.

My mind likes to wander into other interconnected subject that does relate to the original idea, but with each branching, it gets further away from the base idea…

It’s a flaw of mine. To keep my mind specifically on one subject. I need a good smacking with a verbal sledgehammer of “Get your ass back on track”.

Testsubject909

It is something I do wish more people would do.

Look at people as people first and gender next. It makes life all that much easier.

I’d also love it if they didn’t suddenly kill any strong female protagonists like Aya Brea or Samus Aran and then on the western market try to shove into my face that Lara Croft is some sort of tough cool female protagonist when she’s really a blight on earth…

It is sad when I can only count on one hand the number of strong female lead protagonist that I genuinely admire.

Well… Let’s see. There’s Terra and Celes both in the same game though Celes is a bit more on the lovelorn side of things until the second half where she’s more focused on reuniting with her friends in a sickened world while Terra, I’m sure, some would love to discredit her due to her interest in learning what love is and later being put into a motherly role but I feel that added to her character and did not take away the fact that she was a strong warrior… But I’m not entirely too fond of her depiction in Dissidia as she’s basically just victimized whereas Lightning gets the big standing ovation which I felt a bit irksome.

Aya Brea, barring the third birthday, is another tough character who happens to be female who you can relate to. She’s a human first and a woman next and that’s always the best way to approach creating a female character. In the same line is Samus Aran whose personality was expressed far more through her environment and through playing the game, getting a direct connection between her and the world she is in.

These are the four I can always say off the top of my head. I’m certain if I took some time to sit down and think of things I could bring up more. But it is sad that these are the top four I can bring up where I’m sure there are many others. No I didn’t count Lightning, mainly because I’ve never played FFXIII and have no real intentions of doing so anytime soon.

SirRichard

Lara Croft’s actually an interesting one; her older portrayal was certainly indicative of the industry’s approach to women, but at the same time many female gamers identified with her as she was a badass, gun-toting git who went toe to toe with dinosaurs and ancient horrors with nary a care, the change to a wimpering, beaten young woman causing its own outrage for that shift.

You’re beginning to side-track, though; you understand the issue here, right? It’s a matter of wanting diversity in the industry, and I don’t think you or I have any issue with that at the end of the day, yeah?

Testsubject909

TL;DR For the On Track only
The industry is ripe full of sexism and tends to focus on male protagonist providing little for women to look up to within their own gender in a featured main role and I don’t have any issues with you if that’s what you meant about that last question.

And now… Back to the regular great wall of text.

The following is off topic. I’ll tell you when I am on topic.
I sidetrack a lot, but I’d like to think that I don’t do so all the time. It’s something my friends have to keep me in line for when we’re having certain discussions sometimes. I tend to think of certain subjects and details within one subject and then move to examine that. I take a lot of side paths before I do a U turn and return to the subject at hand with the accumulated ideas and information I gathered from my little mental walk away from the beaten path.

I will note first before anything else. My main issue is that I’m uncertain of the validity of this poll that was conducted, followed by a personal problem with thinking that you can just apply broad strokes to determine the interests of a gender as a whole despite the fact that we do have differences on a genetic level and gender roles applied unto us by societal norms which does alter how we act and how we envision ourselves as being normally for our gender in the long run.

But back on track (For the most part)
Yes. I do know some of the problems with the industry. A sore lack of appropriate female characters and identifiable characters for women who seek to have a role model of their gender. A disturbing amount of sexism found in the workplace as it is in every other workplace and the same belittling of women which is in part residual effect from a variety of factors such as the ingrained ideas of our gender roles which is in direct confrontation with another social phenomena which is slowly wearing, tearing and breaking down these walls which I’ll stop right now because it’ll get me moving towards social media and the impact of the internet and ease of education.

There’s more to it then that, but that I think should be enough before since this is already a large enough wall. You and I, we don’t have an issue with each other I’d like to think. And I’d like to think we don’t have any issues with the opposite gender either, in the big picture that is. And that we share the same worries for the gaming industry and the proper portrayal of both genders in it’s varied shapes and forms and worries for equality for all as we are human beings first and as such should be treated as first and foremost rather then be branded by our gender (which would also get me off on a tangent about stereotypical male roles and sexism towards men but hey).

SirRichard

Yeah, I think we’re getting each other now. Good talk, Test.

Testsubject909

Sorry for all my thoughts going everywhere.

Blame my childhood, maybe. I didn’t interact a lot with people in a positive manner until high school so I was left to interact with myself.

puchinri

I think Agrias also counts (FF:T)? I like to pat my chest in pride that I can usually think of more than a handful of awesome, female leads (in any media, and mostly consistent, except comics where I just exclude certain writers because that’s inevitable), but it’s often hard to really call them to mind when I need to.

I actually feel like the industry used to be a bit better about some parts of gender (and sexuality) portrayal, but I think many of the strides have just also come with some people intentionally turning their head or being saucy, and some catering and pandering because it’s quick, cheap and easy (and will pay off to an extent, but not as well as people like to pretend any kind of pandering pays off to, sexual or non).

Colonel Custard

What do you mean by kill? If I recall Aya was still a badass in The 3rd Birthday if only for like 20 seconds and then bang….

Testsubject909

Yup… 20 seconds and then Bang. Killed any credibility she had.

Colonel Custard

Be that as it may be. I would disagree that, that incident killed her credibility after she didn’t have the power to swap bodies nor could she kill her sister for her sake. But, that is how I saw things your perspective on that part might be different and albeit has peaked my curiosity as to what you could be thinking.

In short verse all I meant to say was Aya character was maintained to the very end.(Though I think the only reason that part happen was so the writers could justify the reason why Aya/Eve become a total ninny while maintaining the Aya old fans came to know.)

I think the HVGN does it better than I would. I could sum it up to… Me. It was the trailer. Towards the end of the trailer, where it got to Aya tearing up her clothes a bit while giving a pained look of some stereotypical female damsel. I sighed… I sighed deeply because I just knew they had gone and just completely kicked her personality out the window in exchange of something else.

But… I’d like to note something entirely off track. I for one actually enjoyed the gameplay of Parasite Eve 2 back in the day. It’s obviously very dated now though. Tank controls… are extremely uncomfortable.

Colonel Custard

Wait a sec have you played The 3rd Birthday if not *Spoilers* Fortunately for me I never saw the trailers for better or worse as I bought the game for it being part of the parasite eve series. Getting back on topic.

Well I did have issue with that at first, well it bugged the hell out of me but,I kinda dropped it once I found out Aya was Eve and that the real Aya died/fragmented. It was kinda annoying too as I went through the game hating the changes they made to Aya character to find nope we fooled you were playing Eve the whole damn time. Then I was like why would you make us play as Eve was seriously so they could justify frail female stereotype.
From there I rationalized that they made a statement about Aya character that she is not judged by her outside appearance but, by what she does, also Eve even though being a clone is whinny ninny as a kid and an adult she doesn’t change. (Had to maintain my sanity somehow as I could find a reason as to why a developer would choose to promote one the crappy side characters.)

Tank controls are a dieing breed for better or worse…Well I guess they only appeal to the gamers of that generation.

Testsubject909

Whether you rationalize it or not, the damage is unfortunately done by the third birthday, and to some that will be their first experience with Aya, an image which will clash heavily with the views of older fans.

I can still manage with tank controls, but the comfort of modern day controls for these sorts of games are undeniable. But I’m still willing to put up with these archaic controls at times for some experiences. Like. Say. Deadly Premonition.

Boba Bob

Well the solution is simple, there needs to be more female gamers if they want more female-oriented games, there is rarely female protagonists because the majority of gamers are male, that’s something everyone knows, but look at otome games, although not widely successful or hit sales, the genre has a dedicated fandom, thus the publishers keep making games for those dedicated fans.

SerendipityX

Once again here lies problem: there is a very small amount of companies trying to appeal to female gamers. More often than not we are just an afterthought. How do you expect the female audience to grow if you don’t try to directly appeal to them?

SirRichard

But at the same time, how best could developers attract more female gamers than by giving them the ability to play as women, even if just in the online multiplayer as another option for a customisable character? For online multiplayer modes that already offer customisation, it’s hardly much more work and can be quite the feather in a game’s cap when appealing to people.

Going by that theory, everyone should stop making role-playing games because FPS is the most popular genre in the industry, and there aren’t as many RPG gamers as there are folks who enjoy online multiplayer in Call of Duty.

It’s a chicken and egg situation. Publishers like Marvelous and Nintendo didn’t build up a huge female audience by waiting for there to be more female gamers. They just went ahead and made their games appealing for both genders, and that “created” female gamers by itself.

The same goes for a lot of Square Enix RPGs. A good many women that play games started out because of Final Fantasy.

puchinri

There are a lot of female gamers. But at the same time, why should someone be interested in a media that continually makes them look lesser? (Women are often reduced to stereotypes and/or fanservice, and that’s not very welcoming. Most men don’t feel welcomed by Twilight, do they? And that’s not even that bad for them.)

Boba Bob

And you think men are not made to “look lesser” in the media?
Do you watch anime? if you’re familiar with the industry, you’ll realize that it tends to be very sexist towards men (Not just in anime), i don’t feel like getting graphic and writing a book about it, but c’mon…”it’s only sexist when men do it”, right?

puchinri

When did I ever say anything about men not being made to look lesser? I’m not even sure I implied it. Men have a ton of problems with gender and sexuality in our culture as well, but it’s also hard to address those because of other men most often, and these problems also tie into the problems related to/at the heart of female-related issues. If we fix one, it gets a lot easier to fix the other (I’d like to fix both at the same time, but many people are even more so resistant to that).

Nothing and no one can be sexist towards men. Prejudiced, yes, but sexism is prejudice plus power, and seeing as men hold the power (and women lack it), it cannot be sexist against them (one privileged group oppressing another). Unless we’re talking about straight men to gay men, because that would be something else, but still not sexism. I do agree most media anywhere in the world treats men terribly, but men do not suffer as much as women (just like any particular privileged person does not suffer as much as the minority person; white women have it bad, minority women have it worse, etc etc and etc sadly).

Indeed, it can only be sexist when men do it, but it’s not as though other groups (or all groups) do not do problematic, prejudiced things (intentionally or not). (Just like a straight, black male can exercise privilege over a gay, Asian male, etc.)

I don’t see that’s adding anything to the issue/debate though? (I do like that men’s issues and other issues are being recognized though. But people usually don’t see the larger issues there either.)

Boba Bob

The more i read your posts the more i realize that i’m wasting my time replying to them, your whole argument in a nutshell:
-men are bad and sexist.
-men have power, so they’re the only one who can be sexist.
-fanservice is bad and no one should look at boobs or enjoy themselves.
-there should be more feminism to make men suffer even more than they already do.
-the media should cater to women only.

you should read your coments from a normal person’s perspective and see how ridiculous they sound.

SerendipityX

She doesn’t sound ridiculous at all. You basically generalized everything she said as if she was some man-hating jerk.
She brings up many valid points. Classy response there.

SirRichard

Speaking as a normal person, you’ve got one massive victim complex raging there or something, friend, and apparently so do two other people. It’s like you didn’t even read their posts, you just saw someone talking about the disparity in sexism against men versus that against women and had a tantrum because how dare they not think of the poor men!

I won’t bother explaining how wrong your post is because judging by the fact that it exists, you’d just cry about feminazis or how we’re all man-hating she-devils or something.

EDIT: I can see the second one, which was bad on her part but at least she accepted that was wrong in her second post, no idea where you’re getting the rest of that.

Boba Bob

Oh i get it, so it’s fine if women bitch and whine about how evil and sexist men are, but men got a “massive victim complex raging” if they do the same?
Thanks for proving my point.

SirRichard

And thanks in turn for proving mine. If you’re going to take issue with it (and reading hers again, yeah that’s dodgy as hell), don’t throw up a list of generalisations and strawmen, call it out and explain why it’s wrong like a rational person.

Or claim that they’re just repeating “rah rah death to men” over and over and don’t contribute to the discussion at all, whichever makes you feel better.

SerendipityX

And you just proved @SirRichard’s point.
What bothers me is that you’re using this “bitching about evil and sexist men” as some sort of excuse as why to female gamers shouldn’t say something about stuff they don’t like in video games.

Testsubject909

I’m a bit tired so I didn’t read the entire back and forth. But on that last bit alone.

I’d think it might be something about the inability to express oneself that comes into play, which is something that guys do get forced to repress by society’s standards. (Disclaimer: The following until the last few parts is me getting off track, search for the bold words to see when I get back on track)Also because of how things are in some cases, guys fighting back against women can be seen as an abuse of said societal power that we’re seen as having which in turn causes a backlash against ourselves. It’s also in the social norms to defend women first.

When a fight erupts. Typically people will take up the side of a woman to defend her, especially if she’s displaying some strong negative emotions, or more accurately if she’s crying or playing up the victim. I know I instinctively think of protecting the women first because I know that’s how I was raised, not by my parents, but by society as a whole. But what I tend to do is follow my curiosity first. Stop the violence, get to the bottom of things and figure out who is the victim and… I’m sorry to say but. Figure out if I might be manipulated by either party.

This, and take it with a grain of salt and sorry but this is the results of my own personal observations of the people around me throughout my time in both high school and college, is something I’ve noticed which is a byproduct of our gender related roles by societal norms. Men tend to be more direct. Women tend to be more indirect. Typically I can see a lot of women masterfully using certain amount of manipulation that I need be wary of. I know men are capable of it too and keep that in mind but I tend to see more subtle manipulation from the female gender. As such approaching such volatile situations gets even more troublesome…

Actually the real trouble is that typically when I get in between a fighting couple or anything else like that, I usually get the strange looks or told to mind my own business because I’m a weirdo who always follows his curiosity and tries randomly to act as a mediator to random situations.

Hmm… backtracking a bit. I also know that the female friends I have in my group used to complain quite a bit about how their personal circle of female friends back in high school were pretty damn vapid or manipulative. I’d think that would be mainly because of the circle of people they’d frequent moreso then a gender role thing since guys have their own sort of troublesome annoyances in the form of jocks. Though considering these circles of people exists in the first place is also somewhat slightly telling of the sort of roles that we’re being handed down in general. Though it’s difficult to tell if it’s entirely because of society and past history being given down or if it’s also in part because of instinct, that is to say, genetics or rather how each gender naturally lean towards one type of mindset/personality or the other.

Yeah…

What was the main subject again… Oh yeah.

(Back on track)
Bitching.

I know I’m annoyed when, whenever I try to talk about some of the prejudice that men experience and limitations that are imposed by society in general, including the reactions of both gender in a negative fashion towards certain actions. That I tend to get the whole “Well you’re a guy” sort of response followed by the “Women have it way worse” answer.

It’s like… Say someone has clinical depression and often thinks about suicide. That person complains about it but you answer “Well I have cancer, don’t complain”.

The situation differs heavily, the pains do too, one situation is worse then the other but… The reaction feels like it’s an invalidation of the troubles of the first party.

puchinri

I feel bad too, because I do not like to lessen the focus on mens’ issues, but women do have it worse, and I feel like when most people bring up mens’ issues, they don’t really care about the issues (or realize what they are), they just say it so that they can say men have problems too (half derail, half . . .I don’t have the word now and I won’t until I get some sleep).

It’s always nice to talk about mens’ issues, but certainly, a lot of people bring them up whenever womens’ issues come up just to derail, and that’s mostly what I feel happened there (and given the response, I really feel that). It’d be cool to start a weekly talk on the message board or something that deals with gender and sexuality (amongst other issues) in games that addresses the male and female problems (one of my favorite FeministFrequency vids is where she talks about Lego, because that was spot on and is what I see a lot at work and makes me very depressed for little boys).

Testsubject909

That might cause some exhaustion.

puchinri

Hehe. Yeah. With some probably being an understatement. Maybe a significant one. But it might be fun and worth it~!

After seeing some people’s feelings on lady issues, I am admittedly interested in seeing what they feel on guy issues (and not just going by comments here, but anything where a heavy discussion on sexism occurred).

Testsubject909

No idea. Male issues aren’t brought up that often. Sort of why I get very quickly exhausted when talking and dealing about the issue of sexism towards women. It’s a subject that I’ve seen repeated constantly and whenever it gets brought up there’s always one overzealous one. At times reasonable, others it’s a femnazi and in that case I can get some weird fun out of talking to them but it’s a dual edged blade since it also brings about some depressing thoughts that “Well… sheeeet… That person’s serious” followed a mild headache.

Also. Something that I heard and found pretty funny a few years back. I was told that the Masculist movement was mainly spearheaded by women.

I just found it to be an amusing thought… That women were fighting for female equality… And male equality. Of course, it was word of mouth. I never double checked the information so I took it with a grain of salt. Still. I always found that thought amusing.

SerendipityX

And you’re absolutely right @Testsubject909:disqus. Men suffer just as much as the women do but somehow @facebook-100003779542216:disqus manage to twist this into something else entirely. He was basically saying “Men are objectified/suffer too, so you women should just deal with it, like we do.” Yeah…no.

Testsubject909

I’d rather think of it as Men suffer differently then Women do.

Since we suffer in different ways, it’s hard to meet eye to eye and this makes it that, most of the time, we tend to sympathize more with our own gender’s suffering moreso then the other.

*coughs*
Damn… coffee went down bad.

SerendipityX

XDDD Coffee go down the wrong pipe? I know the feeling.

Testsubject909

Common grounds for both gender: The pain of coffee going down the wrong hole.

Testsubject909

Gender based prejudice is pretty much sexism. It happens on both end, but one group holds the advantage. That’s the base of it.

I have to go like right now, my ride’s waiting so I’ll be extremely brief and people might infer from it whatever since I won’t be able to explain myself.

Men are victim of sexism too and we have social norms to blame. There are things guys aren’t supposed to do and if they do so, they will be made fun of by both gender and shunned by society.

Can’t say more for now. See ya. Good luck settling things in a civilized manner but I expect a fistfight.

puchinri

I get what you’re saying, but the word is the key difference. It is technically sexism, but the power part makes a huge difference. It’s really called gender-based prejudice vs sexism because of the groups it’s aimed at (and the group doing the aiming). I don’t disagree, but people often go, “men experience sexism too!” when they technically don’t (they also experience a lot of gender-based problems and prejudice, but it’s not the same scale, tone or power). But at the same time, the words differences are mostly noted in an academic setting or on sites (or places) where these things are an immediate focus.

Defintiely. Which is what I wanted to address. I’ve seen it more and more at my job, and even amongst my friends (or in general anywhere, or online) and it’s very disheartening and it also pisses me off. I call it out when I can, but obviously, a lot of people really don’t understand.

It actually reminded me of what someone said earlier (maybe Boba Bob himself?) about the things they’d put in games aimed at girls, but the problem is it excludes men that enjoys these things and even kind of implies shaming them for it. Which absolutely. Irritates me. It always stuns me (well, not really) how people conceive and react to sexism (women, gender-based prejudice and problems) being brought up, but their absolute ignorance on it when it comes to men just drives me bananas and really shocks me.
At the same time, a lot of people always want to go, “men have problems too~~!/whine” without really understanding the problems or how the problems with both/all genders tie together, and that irritates me (especially because it strikes me as white knighting and not really caring about mens’ issues, but just using them so they can be defensive).

puchinri

Thank you very much for that. I really appreciate that viewpoint and that you said all that. You hit every nail and point right on the head (and I feel sorry that this eloquence is missed in so much of the topic).

It’s disappointing, but it’s something to be expected given how gaming developed and the people it attracted throughout its history. Arguably it’s a kind of teething pain as the medium goes mainstream, that these discussions are happening at all is a good sign.

It’s taking baby steps towards getting better about gender issues, to be sure, but we’ll get there eventually, hopefully.

puchinri

That’s true. It’s nice that it was brought up at all and that it can be addressed in some way (and that potentially, others are being made aware or just learning more).

I hope so as well~. Maybe one day, we’ll be able to see these issues addressed on more mainstream sites and not just the sites where these issues are a focus.

Testsubject909

My personal history with it was that gaming back in the 80’s and 90’s was pretty gender neutral. Anyone could approach it and play with it. Somewhere down the line though the focus tightened on the male demographic.

Don’t know when it happened.

Testsubject909

Call it overexposure to the point of exhaustion for me.

I rarely hear anything I haven’t already heard before and I don’t mind retouching on the subject, it helps to keep the mind fresh on the issue. But it is in part exhaustion. I can plead my own personal cause, but again as SirRichard has noted. I’m one among six billion. So pleading my cause is useless. Talking about the subject provides some exposure as well, but because of the time I’ve spent thinking on the subject and how my mind works. I’ve actually veered my interest away from just sexism towards women and just the matter of sexism as a whole, social norms and the likes where, to me, sexism towards women seems like just a part of a larger problem which goes back to society.

puchinri

You are right, it is part of a larger problem, and many of these problems fuel each other. I do appreciate any attention being brought up to the issues and them being discussed (although some of the discussion is really damaging and telling more than anything).

Exhaustion is a good word for it too.

M’iau M’iaut

Was at work all day today — thanks so much for your efforts to bring your usual sanity to this thread. Thanks to for @SirRichard:disqus and yes even @Testsubject909:disqus . Now only if we can find him some strong meds to help his problem.

puchinri

Thank you for the comment. Not sure how much you see by now, but I often like trying to note this kind of stuff when possible because I feel like the discussion can be helpful (and while a lot of really, ugly stuff has been said on many threads where any -ism or something has been called out, there’s also been a great deal of wonderful, smart things said that encourage me and push me along).

Really, I feel bad for Testsubject909, because I understand (I have really bad ADD), but I couldn’t help but be amused and imagine him as a cat. If we start trying to find a good set of meds though, his username would really start to apply.

Testsubject909

I don’t believe I need meds. If I do actually have ADD, it’s so light that I can handle it myself with some application of focus. I say that mainly because I have a friend who has ADD and the difference between him and the rest of my group of friends (including me) when it comes to being able to focus is like night and day at times.

We try not to make too much of an excitable mess in his car when he drives because it’s hard for him to keep his focus on the road, for example.

I’d prefer to think I’m just normal for a weirdo. If anything, my mental problem would be overthinking from what I’ve been told. I prefer to think that my problem is that I tend to dive too much into a variety of detail which in turn provides more subjects that draws my interest and curiosity to mentally dive further into.

As for my username. I have plans on making use of that username for something that I hope can entertain some people… Actually I need to write up a short introduction, a script if you will, and post it for tomorrow on Youtube.

Personal plans, just reminding myself of it is all.

puchinri

Actually, I am the overthinker in my group. Or anywhere in my general, offline, personal spaces. I think overthinking can be a great thing (although it does bring a hint of burden).

Heh, that’s interesting. I’m guessing it may be linked here?

Testsubject909

I’ll post it in the OT at some point in time.

Still confused as to who’s going around downvoting you.

Testsubject909

Maybe if I get a good strong dose of tranquilizers.

SerendipityX

Concerning P4 and FeMC it irks me that Atlus didn’t seem to want to put in some creative effort to add a female lead. I would have loved to see what they could/would have done with a P4 lady lead. P4G was great and really the only thing I disliked about the game was there was no feMC. Atlus sorely disappointed me even though I enjoyed the game.

puchinri

I thought P3 was originally made with a male lead in mind as well? I really think as a whole, the series is geared toward male audiences, but I don’t feel like (until recently) that they weren’t aiming at female audiences at all.

Also, I will not hold out hope for a FeMC route in P4. If it happens in P5, yes and I shall support that, but if not, I’ll see how the game is over all before I decide whether or not I feel like investing in it (there’s a lot of great titles coming around I notice, and I feel that will continue, thankfully).

Testsubject909

As I said. Going by the picture book that was provided with the game. We have an early design of a female lead and a short talk in there about how their original intentions being scrapped for time.

puchinri

It’s an awkward position to be in knowing that now. Kind of annoyed they scrapped it over time, but nice they added it way later, but just. . . feels that cannot be explained.

Testsubject909

If I was a woman, I’d be at the very least a bit disappointed if not peeved.

And I feel it can. It’s just not a very pretty answer. They had to cut to meet the deadlines and they opted to focus on the male lead.

puchinri

Well, I meant personal feels. I totally get their perspective and understand it (I would love if they had chosen the female option instead, but the male option was probably safer for them, or at least perceived to be), but my own feels on the handling, there are just no words for them. (Yet. Maybe at all?)

Testsubject909

You have words for them. You just don’t know how to formulate it yet. It’s common. A lot of people tend to have things they think they don’t have an answer for when they do.

I remember back in the days I used to get a kick out of trying to figure out how to lead people into blurting out the answers that they were withholding within themselves. Took a small bit of pride in being called a wiseman in a non-sarcastic manner by a bunch of random people. Though in all honesty it was just a bunch of folks who hadn’t worked out some kinks in their thought processes yet and would have probably found the answer in due time were as anyone naturally does, eventually…

Hmm…. don’t mind me. Actually nowadays I wonder how the hell I did those things… I don’t lie when I say I write whatever off’s the top of my head. So that means back then I might’ve just gotten lucky repeatedly and just found the right questions to ask people… Typically it’s just a short pause, look and then ask them what I would ask myself.

Like you for example. I don’t know you. But as for the situation, if I was trying to figure out words to my feelings and this was my situation… Your feelings on how they handled it. What sort of feeling is it? What’s the closest emotion you can connect it to? That would be the first step. Next would be trying to pinpoint exactly the cause and trigger for that emotion.

puchinri

I probably will have the words, but I’ll probably forget (somewhat on purpose) so I don’t need them.

Certainly, it’d just be a sad list of: depressed, disappointed, irritated, angsty, blah blah blah. x’D;
There would be nothing healthy to explore in that list. And it’s a situation where I feel bad for all parties (it’s sad when devs have to cut something out of a game for time, and also sad for any audiences/gamers that would have enjoyed what was cut).

Wackoramaco87

Kind of surprised, kind of not. I enjoyed the games very much, it’s nice to see other girls did too! (Well, assuming that many girls voted- is SPA! magazine more male or female oriented?) =) I wonder if developers take note of these sorts of polls? It’d be intresting to see if they do, and if it changes some of the future games!

This isn’t really all that surprising; Atelier titles have been friendly toward, and made in part for, a female audience ever since the franchise’s inception. While it was a fair bit stronger with the early games (Elie in particular) due to the lack of male-oriented fanservice, the newer games (especially Ayesha) still provide engaging stories centered around their female protagonists being proactive.

The story of Totori, after all, is one of a young woman telling her family that it is wrong to think that Mrs. Helmold is dead just because she has been missing for a long stretch of time, and setting out to find her – and then dealing with the truth in the forms it comes in. I can absolutely see a female audience finding the story engaging on that front (even if Totori herself can be a bit too much of a wet blanket at times).

I do share another poster’s curiosity about whether or not the readership of this particular magazine is male or female, however. :V

Testsubject909

I, oddly, had to stop for a moment in between reading your comment to look at your avatar picture. All I was waiting for then was a “Capitalism Ho!”. But none came…

And as for the readership of any magazine, I’d assume that both genders are reading it. I doubt they’re filtering out male votes so.

I’ve got nothing to say about the top three, other then Persona 4 Golden I can definitely see anyone enjoying it. As for the other two, I enjoy them both as well but I wouldn’t exactly call one or the other the… “Best Game for Girls”.

Honestly… I’ve never really thought of games in that way. Grew up with my entire generation playing games. My two sisters played games, all my cousins played games. To me, it was simple: “You’re a gamer? Okay. What? Gender? Don’t care about that if we’re talking gaming, So what genre are you into?” And that’s about it…

I honestly find this whole… Best Game for a Gender to be… a bad idea. Why? Because if there’s a Best Game for Girls. What the hell is Best Game for Guys? Are we going to gender stereotype now? Are we going to assume that because I’m a guy, I must thus enjoy shooters more therefore the best game for me would be a shooter so Far Cry 3 and Call of Duty would be up there? Mind you I’d enjoy Far Cry 3, don’t really care about Call of Duty, and despite the overall quality of the games listed… I’d find myself… maybe just a bit insulted…

Neko Kawaii

-Atelier Totori
-girls
Yeah that explains why her top looks like is about to fall off in that picture, totally girly!

Testsubject909

*sips coffee*

By the way. I never did mention it. But you know that dating sim otome game for girls where you play as “King Arthur” and you get to date all the knights.

One of her screenshot was showing off her ass quite in detail despite the clothes she was wearing. All I could think of was that this was pandering to males… And then I wondered. Why? Why are you showing off this girl’s ass if your market is a female audience in a game where you focus on a heterosexual relationship?

*sips coffee*

Just saying… I’m confused by things.

edit: So… it’s a new day… Got a new cup of coffee….

*sips coffee*

I see that by the dislikes I’ve received… That does this mean that there are some heterosexual women out there who have the intention of purchasing the game and actually find the inclusion of a detailed shot of a woman’s buttocks despite her garment to be appealing enough that it warrants downvoting me?

I’m curious here. And somewhat amused, but mainly curious as to the reasons.

Tianyu Wei

These aren’t just the best girl game on Vita… they are probably the best games on Vita period lol

Testsubject909

I don’t know. I quite enjoyed Gravity Rush and Ragnarok Odyssey. If you’re itching for strategy, Disgaea 3 is great value for the price and there’s also Orgarhythm. On the Platformer end we have Little Big Planet Vita which was enchanting on it’s own and like always when LBP is involved, tons of people are making stuff for it. On the music game end, if you don’t mind KPop, there’s DJ Max Technika Tune and for the most part, as far as I can tell, what best scratched that itch for a First or Third person shooter on the Vita was Unit 13 and for fighting games. Mortal Kombat sold cheap for 20$ at some point and is the same as the Komplete edition but with even more extras for the Vita.

And that’s off the top of my head. Now, depending on the genre you prefer and what you want out of your Vita and whatnot. You could argue they’re not the best. I for one think Gravity Rush is the game you cannot miss playing for the Vita despite it’s brevity which would technically put it above Persona 4 Golden which, I would like to note, I find excellent but not as important an experience to be had on the Vita as compared to Gravity Rush.

ragingmerifes

If I ever meet a girl who likes these three, I swear by the entire Dalek empire that I will inconditionally love her.
And let her play with the first controller.

Testsubject909

Do keep her away from them though. They’re known for EXTERMINAAAAATING well… pretty much everything except the doctor.

ragingmerifes

But girls in Dalek suits are the new girls in Stormtrooper suits!.

Testsubject909

I see you’re a fan of the fully cylindrical look.

ragingmerifes

And that velvet sexy voice… oh god…

Testsubject909

Don’t forget dat plunger.

puchinri

It was kind of jolting to see that Doctor Who reference. But it made me smile.

ragingmerifes

DW always make people smile.

Testsubject909

Dynasty Warriors? I keeed I keeed.

Well. I knew what I was getting into for making reference to a game that a lot of people find mediocre. As the good doctor used to say. Allons-y!

$83405569

It Atelier and Persona are girly games, then I’m in trouble.

z_merquise

I really wanted to try the Arland games and I’m also looking forward to play Atelier Ayesha.

Regarding the topic, nothing wrong with it. Anyone, male or female, can enjoy any type of games.

AlyOssan

Lol, what the hell is with some of these comments…is it really that hard to believe that girls like these games? I’ve played all three of them extensively…

Luna Kazemaru

because its ‘sexist’ its hard to believe is why and if they do play them they are ‘taking it in’ or ‘just stopped caring’

I’m not sure that’s the actual central issue. At least I know from my point of view I think that if I was a woman I’d find this to be relatively insulting as I’d be getting classified by gender alone rather then by interest and fear that it’d bring about more stereotyping in part due to the aesthetics of the game represented despite the quality of their content.

Or something along those lines.

Edit: And then there’d be the whole possibility of misrepresentation through the form of popular vote which may have included male votes and thus is not a top three chosen by women and a variety of other implications and whatnot that’s already been discussed to death down below.

AlyOssan

Yeah, to be honest I’m not too keen on a poll that specifically specifies games “for girls”. I realize we are a minority in the gaming world, but I think it’s possible for anyone to enjoy any type of game regardless of their gender. If only women took part in this poll then it may be a different story, as that would be more like seeing what games were most popular among the female demographic. However, as you said, a lot of men probably voted in this poll and skewed the vote to be more like “these are the games I think girls would like”.

My original comment was mostly expressing my disgust at some of the comments I read here, like one that said something like Persona 4 can only be “fully enjoyed” by men. Which is of course a load of bollocks.

Testsubject909

Got nothing to say against what you said in that last bit.

Considering how everyone enjoys the same game in an entirely different way, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly how does anyone fully enjoy a game or how anyone else cannot fully enjoy a game.

Unless they have a physical handicap, such as say, being blind or being deaf. I don’t really see how they are missing out on an experience. And how do you quantify this “fully” anyhow? Does it require maxing everything out and completing the game 100%? Is it just a random playthrough without the need to complete it in which case how do you determine what makes it a “full enjoyment”? Do you absolutely need to date the girls to fully enjoy it? What happens if a guy finds that none of the girls in P4 are his type and doesn’t date any of them, does that mean that he suddenly didn’t get the full enjoyment of the game? Is it because it’s a male protagonist? If that’s the reason why he claims it’s preventing you from fully enjoying it. Does that mean that I didn’t fully enjoy Parasite Eve or Super Metroid because they were female protagonists?

Tangent. Sorry.

AlyOssan

Yeah, I don’t really get it either. It was a pretty ridiculous statement to make. If it’s because the main character is male and dates girls, that brings in a whole lot of other factors. Does that mean gay men can’t “fully enjoy” the game either since you can’t date other men in the game? Does that mean that all the straight men who enjoyed, say, Hakuoki didn’t “fully enjoy” it because it’s a game where you play as a girl and date men? Who even knows.

Alphabet Soup

Now I really need to check out Atelier Totori~! Wasn’t there also an otome-specific Atelier game announced? At any rate, this was an interesting list.

gustave154

atelier totori deserves this many comments

funkzillabot

That’s odd, because I’ve noticed that more men play the “Atelier series” then girls do. I’ve talked to a couple people — all men, at Gamestop. One person even said, he’s played every single one in the series. There’s nothing wrong with that, of course, it’s just that more men post in message forum boards about this game. More so then women. (I never even heard of this game, before Totori)

Either way, I thank them for it, because there are sections of both Atelier Totori & Meruru that I wouldn’t have been able to complete if someone hadn’t painstakingly gone through it first.

[OCD cuts across booth sexes.]

funkzillabot

If anything, I’ve noticed that more women play Final Fantasy — and admit to actually playing it. Damn near all of those games star a male protagonist. So, it’s foolish to make a broad statement that “this is for girls” and “this one is for boys”, because you never know what people are going to gravitate to. Even that’s not a guarantee, because not everyone is the same.

There maybe certain aspects that speak to each sex — however those “aspects” are not PINK and BLUE. It may be time to dig a little deeper.

Pedro Rosas

I’m a guy and I love Atelier Totori and Project Diva. Totori has a well made RPG system not to mention is really challenging and Project Diva well….which guy doesn’t loves to see a teenager pop idol in fancy, sexy and provocative costumes dance around?

I’m amazed Persona was categorized as a “girl” game honestly

TheBlackgirl123

finally they made a game with girls only. even though i’m a black girl i have a lot of these games. i’m tired of those old perverted men taking these games. who cares if it is for boys

[S]unjΔy of Equestria

The Atelier series is great. Both sexes can easily like it, it’s not about your sex. You’ll enjoy a game as long as it is your preference in video games.

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