You know one of my pet hates on forums is when people make ridiculous statements like these.

Saying that you don't like someone's style of writing/directing or saying that the shows they have created aren't your taste, is fine. The nice thing about the shows that I like is that they are a very specific style, very different and therefore not designed to be enjoyed by EVERYBODY.

But suggesting that people who watch it will eventually come to their senses is undermining.

Suggesting that Joss Whedon's characters are cardboard shows that you have absolutely no understanding of characterisation as a whole - or you have simple never given Buffy a chance in hell to prove the complexity of it's characters too you.

I mean we are talking about some of the most involved personalities i've ever come across. I know these characters better than I know some of my friends, in that I understand them and their actions and how they behave. They are extremely developed, changing from the first episode they appear in to the last in such interesting and experimental ways.

Each one is entirely unique, and Joss is the most talented director i've ever encountered at handling large casts and giving all them equal time to grow and show themselves.

Finally, Joss Whedon doesn't try to be anything. He just natural writes in this way... it's his sense of humour, it's the way he plays with his words... and I absolutely love it.

When you compare the dialogue, banter or style of writing in Buffy to say Dollhouse, you can see that he's not forcing anything. That show, if dissapointing to some, only showed me that he doesn't force himself to write in the same style just to please the fans... each of his ideas has it's own style, while still be indetifiyable as one of his products.

The man is an auter, a respected proffesional, but he is certainly not overrated. He hasn't gotten much recognition from the general public, who most of the time when i mention him, haven't got a clue who i'm talking about.

The fact that you have decided you HATE buffy and angel, despite admitting that you haven't seen more than a few episodes, has clearly clouded your ability to make a decent point.

And like one bunny rabbit once said,' if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all'.

Wheadon sucks. The more I see of Wheadon's product (other than Firefly) the less I liked it. The only thing worse than the crap Wheadon trowels out are the mindless fanboys who wear "Joss Wheadon is my master now" T-shirts. It's bad enough that Kevin To-Fat-To-Fly Smith still has his share of sheeple. But Wheadon? C'mon. It's pure unadulterated cheezy crap. Buffy seems to be the kind of show that only appeals to people under the age of thirty.
I know all about characterization, quality storytelling and good acting. I've seen it in such shows as Star Trek The Next Generation, Star Trek Deep Space Nine and Doctor Who. Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel just aren't in the same league.
And I remain convinved that when the Wheadonites hit my age (I'm just shy of 40) they'll look back on the show as a guilty pleasure at best and deep shame at the worst.
I know I'm ashamed to admit I sat through the entire musical episode of Buffy. I felt each brain cell slowly die.
P.S. Avengers is going to be a total cinematic abortion.

Joss Wheadons' level of suckage is galactic in scope. Hawking, Einstein and Emmett Brown would be unable to calculate it even if they had Data to help them out.

I'd just as soon not have him anywhere near any Marvel character.

I mean, I watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer a few times. I felt brain cells die. And don't get me started on the musical episode. That was a crime against culture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianbuck

I've become convinced that, 20 years from now, when the kids who watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer catch reruns of the show they will say to themselves 'What the hell was I thinking?'
My God, was that show awful. And Angel was even worse. Terrible dialogue, cardboard characters and silly plots.
And I reiterate, the musical episode was a Crime Against Culture.
Now Firefly was, I admit, a different situation. Firefly had good characters, good actors (You can't go wrong with Adam Baldwin) and a sense of fun. It's the one thing Wheadon did that I enjoyed, and I think it's a shame that it was never given a chance to find an audience.
One of the things that really sucks about being a GenXer is the 3 people from my generation that have made the most lasting contributions to pop culture are overrated hacks like Kurt Cobain, Kevin Smith and Joss F**king Wheadon. It's depressing.

I've written three different comments back to this, but in the end all i really wanna say is this:

You obviously just don't get it.

A television show that has cardboard characters, silly plots and produces episodes that are a crime against culture, does not get the recognition that Buffy and Angel have recieved. It does not have mention in numerous academic studies as well as having a great number of studies written specifically about it, in the fields of family, friends, philosophy and ethics. It doesn't gain one of the most loyal fan followings of all time, and it does not gain the man who created it respect in a difficult genre, and in a plot that on paper sounds completely slapstic.

He is an incredibly talented man. He created something new, unique and trend setting. He contributed in no small way to a recognisable pop culture of out era.

And your negative opinion about his shows, which you personally don't like, is simply not very well informed.

You probably didn't understand the lyrics if you thought they were moronic. What was idiotic about Nirvana "as a band"? and there was nothing disappointing from the alternative music from the 90's. Music has mostly sucked since then. Just corporate jingles by soulless sell outs.

First of all, anything past the 80s have sucked except for only a few bands. Between the Buried and Me is one of those bands. BTBAM is something I can put on a mix and listen to with Zeppelin, Kansas and Triumph(even though they've been a band since the 90s. So, Triumph gets a freebie, lol), imo.

And I don't count the bands' "comebacks" as all three of them have returned to make music as I'm not even interested with listening to their new stuff as I felt their sound have been watered down mildly, except for AC/DC.

And the lyrics were just Cobain saying a phrase over and over and over and then smashing his guitar. What's so intelligent about that? All he's doing is just proving that the heroin has gone to his head. Plus, everyone thought "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was a great song, and I'd rather listen to someone like Lil' Wayne freestyle to that song's beat; THAT'S how much I think of Nirvana.

And to my words of Joss Whedon, even though I said Cobain was an idiot as well, it didn't mean I meant to call Whedon an idiot; I think he has a nice style with writing, but it's just I'm not particulary a fan of any of his work and really hoping I can get behind the Avengers, mostly just because it's the freaking Avengers. I much prefer someone like Eric Kripke instead of Whedon, that's for sure. Heck, even J.J. Abrams.

I've written three different comments back to this, but in the end all i really wanna say is this:

You obviously just don't get it.

A television show that has cardboard characters, silly plots and produces episodes that are a crime against culture, does not get the recognition that Buffy and Angel have recieved. It does not have mention in numerous academic studies as well as having a great number of studies written specifically about it, in the fields of family, friends, philosophy and ethics. It doesn't gain one of the most loyal fan followings of all time, and it does not gain the man who created it respect in a difficult genre, and in a plot that on paper sounds completely slapstic.

He is an incredibly talented man. He created something new, unique and trend setting. He contributed in no small way to a recognisable pop culture of out era.

And your negative opinion about his shows, which you personally don't like, is simply not very well informed.

Yes, I did get it. I realized it sucked and moved on to television shows that don't suck. Fans like you are exactly what I'm talking about. Wheadon has this small devoted cult of supporters that can't see the remarkably low quality of his product. He is not talented, he is a hack. And the fact that academics have wasted time and money studying his adolecent nonsense goes to show how low our standards have fallen.
Try watching Doctor Who or Deep Space Nine (or Firefly)and you'll never want to waste time with Buffy or Angel again.
And my negative opinion of Wheadon's product is based on the fact that I did give it a chance. But the more I watched of Buffy, the less it appealed to me. And Angel was just an abomination.
Besides, Wheadon is an admitted feminist. So he doesn't even have a Man Card to turn in. As a 100% heterosexual red blooded American masculinist, I just can't respect that.

as a thirty-five plus years spider-fan, and also a huge fan of joss whedon, i would love to see this, whether in movie, tv, or comic book form. i would love to see something so character driven applied to spider-man.

As to th OP's initial post, Whedon's never done anything I much liked before. I never understood the love that Buffy & Firefly got as they just irritated me when I tried to get into them. His X-men work is decent but that's just writing a comic book. Got no clue on his other writing contributions to films since he often wasn't the sole writer. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on Avengers because much of the heavy lifting has been done for him in the set-up films and because Marvel Studios is good at not screwing up it's properties.

But Whedon on Spider-man? I think I'd have rather seen a Favreau-directed Spider-man movie instead.

Besides, Wheadon is an admitted feminist. So he doesn't even have a Man Card to turn in. As a 100% heterosexual red blooded American masculinist, I just can't respect that.

you're of course entitled to your opinion--reactionary as it seems--but c'mon, this last part is, well, kinda silly, don't you think? what're you even talking about. please, tell us what percent heterosexual you are again. look, i'm just pokin ya (i'm only about 77-88% heterosexual), but to dis joss becasue he is an "admitted feminist" is just kind of a cop out on your part, shy of actually leveling a thoughtful opinion against him (such opinions legitimately exist, i'm sure). frankly, i think it takes a real man, one who doesn't really give a rat's a@# about what others think of him or his masculinity, to recognize and embrace their feminism. being masculine is about recognizing who you are, not perpetuating dated stereotypes, or injecting gender where it isn't really relevant. being a feminist isn't weak; it takes strength. and i love joss' feminism and his representation of women. frankly, he makes me feel better about being a man.

I've never seen the entire Firefly series, but I know that Angel was much about Cordelia as it was about Angel himself.

And him doing the Avengers...I just hope he can do a film that's a mostly male-cast ensemble.

That may be a little complaint, but my overall complaint in regards to his shows is the effects and the lackluster mythology with Buffy and Angel.

Cordelia's episode count is lower than other main characters Wesley and Gunn who are male. She was prominant but not a co-lead.

Firefly is a well balanced ensemble (5 male, 4 female).

Buffy is the only show he's made that had an outwardly feminist intent.

Dollhouse had a female protagonist because the show was made for Eliza Dushku, and even then there are plenty of prominant male characters.

I agree with the lackluster mythology. Joss and his staff can often be very lazy with their story (saying it's because they're focused on characters is a cop-out).
The effects were okay for a TV show I thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianbuck

Besides, Wheadon is an admitted feminist. So he doesn't even have a Man Card to turn in. As a 100% heterosexual red blooded American masculinist, I just can't respect that.

Cordelia's episode count is lower than other main characters Wesley and Gunn who are male. She was prominant but not a co-lead.

Firefly is a well balanced ensemble (5 male, 4 female).

Buffy is the only show he's made that had an outwardly feminist intent.

Dollhouse had a female protagonist because the show was made for Eliza Dushku, and even then there are plenty of prominant male characters.

I agree with the lackluster mythology. Joss and his staff can often be very lazy with their story (saying it's because they're focused on characters is a cop-out).
The effects were okay for a TV show I thought.

From what I saw of Angel, Cordelia was more important than Wesley and Gunn combined. So what if she wasn't in as many episodes, still doesn't matter, imo. Angel was big in Buffy and he wasn't really in a lot of episodes, or from what I can remember. But, either way, I'm not even huge fans of those shows, or even of Whedon.

And with the mythology...you'd think a show involving the supernatural and everything would take time to enrich the mythology, but no, lol. And the effects, they looked like they tried too much or too hard on those, as in a show like Supernatural, they don't go too big; granted, their budget is tight, but I doubt even then they won't go too big on it.

No thanks to Whedon. Not really a fan of what he's done except for Serenity. That is what gives me some hope for the Avengers, nothing else.

Webb is the much better director just from (500) Days alone. You want a character driven Spider-Man film, you have it with Webb. To suggest otherwise is to show a total cluelessness about the approach that the filmmakers have stated on record that they are taking.

Totally agree, Whedon would be perfect for Spidey, plus he has said in interviews he was his favourite character growing up. Wonder what villain he would use? I see Anthony Stewart Head as Green Goblin.

Totally agree, Whedon would be perfect for Spidey, plus he has said in interviews he was his favourite character growing up. Wonder what villain he would use? I see Anthony Stewart Head as Green Goblin.

Raimi said he was a fan too, and look how that turned out. He gave us a klutzy, love-stricken, cry-baby Peter Parker who couldn't utter a witty retort if the fate of the world was at stake.