Possible McCain VP pick Jindal deals blow to separation of church and state

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Yeah how dare we have critical thinking. How dare people talk about flaws in Darwin's Theory of Evolution, Global Warming, cloning, etc.

And let's not even get into a discussion about how overdone the whole separation of church and state is. 'Cause that current system is a huge misconstruction of the Founding Fathers intentions.

Critical thinking is a belief in a supernatural being that knows all, sees all, hears all, created all, can do all and is all but is always broke. Just can't handle money.

Thank you George Carlin.

So you believe in the supernatural, forces outside of nature and you call that critical thinking? You believe in the totally unproven, accepted totally on faith absent any and all physical and circumstantial evidence and you demand to be taken seriously as a critical thinker? Whoa, now I've heard it all.

Actually, I'm a conservative Jew. I believe a little bit of it, but the majority of it is fairy-tales. I believe in it moreso because of the cultural aspects.

Anyway, in terms of believing it all:

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid." (John 5:31)
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid." (John 8:14)

"Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

I mean, are you kidding me?

You're comparing the Torah to the Christian Bible. There are a lot of inconsistencies between the two. Mostly because the writers of the Christian Bible wanted to make it easier to bring in converts. That's why they said keeping Kosher isn't important any longer. That's also why a lot of the important symbols and holidays were changed.

Member of the Owlluminati

Originally Posted by James Madison

"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."

So yes, I think they are on the same fantasy level as other fantastical stories, because they are made up. By people.

I think that's an oversimplification. And I think you acknowledge the bigger picture, but for some reason ignore it.

You "acknowledge the historical importance of the stories", but put them on the same level as fairy tales, because they're both made up.

I still think that's silly.

And when you consider that religion is a very personal thing for a lot of people, I consider it insulting to compare that to fairy tales. The historical importance, and the importance it has to people on a personal level, puts it at a level that deserves respect. And comparing it to fairy tales is disrespectful.

So you believe in the supernatural, forces outside of nature and you call that critical thinking? You believe in the totally unproven, accepted totally on faith absent any and all physical and circumstantial evidence and you demand to be taken seriously as a critical thinker? Whoa, now I've heard it all.

This wasn't directed at me, but I'll still answer.

I don't have faith in God or anything, but I haven't ruled it out at all as a possibility.

But, I still feel that religion is an important enough thing, to be treated with respect, and not mocked.

And people who wear the badge of atheism, can be as intolerant, close minded, and ignorant, as any religious person stereotype, they claim to hate.

BTW about this whole separation of church and state thing....Obama recently gave a speech about religion, and faith based initiatives and whatnot....but not many people cried foul about separation of church and state.

I think that's an oversimplification. And I think you acknowledge the bigger picture, but for some reason ignore it.

You "acknowledge the historical importance of the stories", but put them on the same level as fairy tales, because they're both made up.

I still think that's silly.

Okay, let me give you a specific example of what I'm talking about.

The escape of the Hebrews from Egypt.

I believe that parts of this story are historically accurate:

"Pharaoh" and "Moses" were real people, as were they Egyptians and Hebrews. I think this is practically indisputable.

Some real events probably occurred, some bad **** went down in Egypt. Having nothing other than religious conceptual frameworks of understanding with which to view these events, the primary actors on both sides attributed them with religious interpretations. Or in other words, they believed these were the "plagues" that were prophesied.

Based on that understanding, Pharaoh did in fact allow the release of the Hebrews according to a particular set of instructions, and they were led by Moses. Those instructions were in some way not followed which led to some sort of additional conflict or threat of conflict that resulted in some urgency to their escape. Some feature of the terrain facilitated this escape, probably involving the passage of the chariots of the Egyptians being inhibited. And so they got away.

Now, nearly every account of that story is infused with religious interpretation, and most of those even contradict each other in the details. But if you pare the story down to its basic elements, I think the historical evidence is essentially there to support the actual happening of something resembling the account I just described there.

So, in terms of "history", there is your historical significance. It's the documentation of a historical event, albeit embellished. But in fact, this kind of "historical significance" is very much secondary to what I'm really talking about.

What I'm really talking about is this:

In terms of social and/or philosophical and/or cultural significance, well the scope of that is too huge to even get into, but I mentioned MLK before. The homegrown element (by which I mean black people in the South who were being persecuted and formed the foundation) of the Civil Rights Movement was predominantly located in Christian churches. One of the most powerful tales from the Bible that served as inspiration, that served as an allegory for their own struggle, was the escape of the Hebrews from enslavement and oppression in Egypt to freedom in the promised land. It was a constantly recurring theme. And for them the significance was that their struggle was just. And framing the struggle in this way was essential to making their cause resonate nationwide, since the vast majority of Americans were likewise Christian

So there's one very concrete example of the kind of social/historical/cultural significance of the Bible that really has import.

Now, I happen not to believe in god or any of the supernatural stuff. But I believe that the Hebrews used their belief in god, and the civil rights movement used such beliefs and an extraordinarily persuasive theological argument for the justice of its cause, to get results. And those results were positive. They changed history forever.

So let me be perfectly clear about one thing: When I talk about the significance of the Bible, I'm really not talking about the significance of the book itself. I'm talking about how people have used it to make impacts on their personal lives, on their communities, their families, on history. And in the final sum, probably more of these impacts have been negative than positive - all the wars...

So no, gcoll, it's not silly for me to disassociate the fantasy tales from what I'm really talking about, which is the real world impact people have made drawing from this text.

And in the case of the escape of the Hebrews escaping from Egypt, if you think that the movie version imagery - Charlton Heston raising a big stick over his head, following the command of some big, booming GOD for glorious cinematic effect - is what really matters about that story, and not the fact that at its heart it is a tale of how an oppressed people engaged in a just struggle against tyranny and emerged victorious - then it's you, and not me, who's being silly and crazy in this discussion.

That's my biggest issue with fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible. The supernatural stuff is just fluff anyways! It's in the lessons and the deeper philosophical underpinnings where you'll find the REAL meat.

We affirm our belief in one God, infinite Spirit, creator, and sustainer of all things, who exists eternally in three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three are one in essence but distinct in person and function.

We affirm that the Father is the first person of the Trinity and the source of all that God is and does. From Him the Son is eternally generated and from Them the Spirit eternally proceeds. He is the designer of creation, the speaker of revelation, the author of redemption, and the sovereign of history.

We affirm that the Lord Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity. Eternally begotten from the Father, He is God. He was conceived by the virgin Mary through a miracle of the Holy Spirit. He lives forever as perfect God and perfect man: two distinct natures inseparably united in one person.

We affirm that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, proceeding from the Father and Son and equal in deity. He is the giver of all life, active in the creating and ordering of the universe: He is the agent of inspiration and the new birth; He restrains sin and Satan; and He indwells and sanctifies all believers.

We affirm that all things were created by God. Angels were created as ministering agents, though some, under the leadership of Satan, fell from their sinless state to become agents of evil. The universe was created in six historical days and is continuously sustained by God; thus it both reflects His glory and reveals His truth. Human beings were directly created, not evolved, in the very image of God. As reasoning moral agents, they are responsible under God for understanding and governing themselves and the world.

We affirm that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, though written by men, was supernaturally inspired by God so that all its words are the written true revelation of God, it is therefore inerrant in the originals and authoritative in all matters. It is to be understood by all through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, its meaning determined by the historical, grammatical, and literary use of the author's language, comparing Scripture with Scripture.

We affirm that Adam, the first man, willfully disobeyed God, bringing sin and death into the world. As a result, all persons are sinners from conception, which is evidenced in their willful acts of sin; and they are therefore subject to eternal punishment, under the just condemnation of a holy God.

We affirm that Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice by the appointment of the Father. He fulfilled the demands of God by His obedient life, died on the cross in full substitution and payment for the sins of all, was buried, and on the third day He arose physically and bodily from the dead. He ascended into heaven where He now intercedes for all believers.

We affirm that each person can be saved only through the work of Jesus Christ, through repentance of sin and by faith alone in Him as Savior. The believer is declared righteous, born again by the Holy Spirit, turned from sin, and assured of heaven.

We affirm that the Holy Spirit indwells all who are born again, conforming them to the likeness of Jesus Christ. This is a process completed only in Heaven. Every believer is responsible to live in obedience to the Word of God in separation from sin.

We affirm that a church is a local assembly of baptized believers, under the discipline of the Word of God and the lordship of Christ, organized to carry out the commission to evangelize, to teach, and to administer the ordinances of believer's baptism and the Lord's table. Its offices are pastors and deacons, and it is self-governing. It functions through the ministry of gifts given by the Holy Spirit to each believer

We affirm that the return of Christ for all believers is imminent. It will be followed by seven years of great tribulation, and then the coming of Christ to establish His earthly kingdom for a thousand years. The unsaved will then be raised and judged according to their works and separated forever from God in hell. The saved, having been raised, will live forever in heaven in fellowship with God.

I know what you are talking about, and for the most part I agree with you.

But, one of the "supernatural stories" in the Bible, is the existence of God.

So, saying that the supernatural stories of the Bible are no better than fairy tales, would be the same as saying that the existence of God is no better than a fairy tale.

And even if you discount the existence of God aspect....it is still inconsiderate, to compare someone's belief system to those of a fairy tale.

You're basically trying to claim you have some greater cosmic truth than they do, when really none of us know. ***see what I did there??

Seriously though. It's kind of a respect thing with me. You can respectfully disagree with someone's beliefs without mocking them.

So no, gcoll, it's not silly for me to disassociate the fantasy tales from what I'm really talking about, which is the real world impact people have made drawing from this text.

I think it is.

To me, that is like looking at a great work of literature, and deciding it sucks because it's made up. Or doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, due to the fact it's made up. Or comparing it to Cat in the Hat...because "both stories are made up" It misses the point.

And if you argue with someone who does have a literal interpretation of the Bible....what do you accomplish by comparing their beliefs to a fairy tale?

And even if you discount the existence of God aspect....it is still inconsiderate, to compare someone's belief system to those of a fairy tale.

this is a necessary evil that faith and lack of faith living together must deal with. both sides have a right to feel as though the other is inconsiderate towards each other. but to insinuate that this practice is only enacted by one side is both wrong and naive.

unfortunately, there's really no way to share one belief or the other without being inconsiderate towards your theological opposite. that's just inherent in faith or lack thereof.

To me, that is like looking at a great work of literature, and deciding it sucks because it's made up.

No, what it is is doubting the beliefs of the people who believe that made up stories are true stories.

And again, I can't DISPROVE the existence of a god or some gods, but the burden of proof is on the people who DO claim they exist. If someone's going to argue that something should be illegal because their god thinks so, I'm going to say well then either show me the bearded fellow hanging out up there in the clouds and PROVE YOUR STORY IS REAL or leave it out of the argument.