It's P2W? Please, tell me about how you can purchase advantages from the cash shop that you aren't able to acquire through normal play. That party fiddlesticks skin is definitely going to give you the competitive edge over that other guy.

hmm i think i prefer subscription, although not many (if any) games offer 100% unlock with a subscription which sucks. Also i think the $15/m could come down to $5ish in long term subscriptions with a normal rate at around $10. No $15 isn't a lot considering other entertainment per hour but a lot of the time it feels like the money isn't going anywhere (a year of server costs are paid within 6 weeks or so in WoW).

I think i just hate cash shops, they tend to destroy immersion for me. Even worse when they shove advertising in your face every time you do something. There are also quality of life purchases which can increase efficiency online (+xp etc.) which always get's me thinking why don't i just pay for it since it will be saving me money if i account for hourly wages from a job. I don't want to have to think about that, i just want to play the game.

It's P2W? Please, tell me about how you can purchase advantages from the cash shop that you aren't able to acquire through normal play. That party fiddlesticks skin is definitely going to give you the competitive edge over that other guy.

I find "that you aren't able to acquire through normal play" a bit ridiculous. I've got about 700-800 games played, 4-5 champions purchased with RP and I still have what, half of them? Having it be an absolutely ridiculous 24/7 for a month grind makes it practically as P2W as the next.

u forgot the point dudes.
yeah LOL is success but u forgot something its a community with kids and many many women thats why so many playing it also no denies etc make it easy game.
BUT the most important is that its a MOBA game wich is like 4 games atm and the easiest/funniest is LoL simple as that.

I still don't get this sudden hatred for subscription fees. Most people spend the amount it costs for a sub on a lunch over two days. The irony being that "F2P" like LOTRO has more incentives to get money out of you.

Originally Posted by Dekadez

Sandbox MMOs are like having sex with a pornstar: Everyone wants it, but when you're getting it, it's suddenly not so awesome anymore.

League of Legends is , besides an awesome game, an example of how it SHOULD be done.
- All champions are available through IP ( game currency earned by playing) and it ISNT a grindfest
- Runes ( the only things that can give you a strong advantage) are not buyable with RP ( buyable currency)
- RP is only used for speeding up the rather trivial leveling ,getting champions faster and COSMETIC changes.

It is ... perfection, or atleast extremely close to perfection.

So why is there no MMO ( that I know of) with a similar currency system?
A game allowing you to play the entire game for free, buy cosmetics for RL money and best of all: ISNT PAY 2 WIN!

How about dota 2?

-Every hero is free, absolutely no costs at all.
-No runes and such to grind out.
-No leveling that matters (There's still leveling, where you get an free item every time you level up.)
-Only cosmetic items cost real life money, but even they can still drop when you play the game.
-No buy able currency, everything's done in IRL money.

Star Wars is just going f2p (probably more accurate to say freemium as you can still subscribe for unlimited access to everything), and they have promised it won't be p2w. How that pans out eventually we'll have to see, but with EA pulling the puppet strings, I wouldn't hold my breath on it staying that way. There will be perks and suchlike to make levelling easier or whatever available to purchase and all the usual vanity guff that goes along with it. If you're a f2p player you're limited in how much you can access each week (though levelling to cap is always going to be free).

Large overall playerbase =/= MMO. Call of Duty or Halo are MMO's as much as LoL or SC2. (In other words - not MMO's)

I don't see the persistent world as a strong argument seeing as most popular MMOs have end game that is indistinguishable from MOs and the persisten world is basically just a glorified chat channel/single player content in them. Also if you look at MMORTS term there would be half a dozen games that would actually fulfill the persistent world requirement of MMO. No matter, there is a better term that describes them as mentioned MOBA. And reality is that MOBA end game vs most MMOs end game ... not a big difference there.

Very few games are actually Pay-2-Win. P2W meaning exactly that- you pay, you gain an exclusive advantage. There is a lot of misconception about P2W and it seems mostly predicated on 'sour grapes syndrome'.

It is far more common to encounter Pay-2-Access. Such as in Everquest 2, SWTOR or DDO.

Originally Posted by CHALET

I still don't get this sudden hatred for subscription fees. Most people spend the amount it costs for a sub on a lunch over two days. The irony being that "F2P" like LOTRO has more incentives to get money out of you.

Many people can't afford an ongoing sub or feel they are not getting their sub's worth out of a game. Especially in this age where players have a high degree of choice amid an increasingly dilettantish audience.

From a game maker standpoint it's hard to carve a niche with a barrier of sub fess. This is partly what led World of Warcraft to have such a stranglehold on the genre to it's progressive detriment.

For example, suppose I am humble gamer Sally Standsinfire. I play World of Warcraft casually. Eventually I hear about this game called the Secret World. It sounds great!

However, I have to buy the initial box price of $60 and then if I choose to play longer than the first month I need to pay a sub fee of a minimum of $15 to play The Secret World. If I decide to invest in a multi-month sub package I am committed to paying for 3/6/12 months upfront regardless of the time I spend in game, direction of the game, content cycle, friends, etc.

Now some of the Sally Standsinfires' of the world will say, "Screw it. Just staying with WoW. Not worth the hassle."

The "The game I am playing right now is good enough & I am comfortable with it's systems" sentiment.

Some other Sally Standsinfire may say, "I'll just wait till Secret World is a little cheaper or till I can afford it for a little while."

Which is fair. Though the trick of the tail is a lot of Sallys end up expressing the latter and either forget or lose interest by time's attrition. Likewise, in the end Sally wants to play with other Sallys and the cycle is perpetual. As Sally #431, #7654 and #976573 are comfortable with their one & only MMO. Sally #761, #398 and #80654 got tired of waiting or simply never got around to that Secret World game and 'oh what the hell, all my friends are playing WOW anyway"

This is how it was for a LONG TIME.

What free 2 play does is get rid of that barrier. If a F2P game sounds interesting one can dabble in the content and buy only what they wish ala carte. Without being beholden to either the initial start costs, ongoing fees or loss of social investment elsewhere.

The result is a more fragmented and varied market. Yet also allows for more esoteric games in the genre space as a Wildstar or Archeage which wouldn't necessarily meet the 500k subs to stay afloat in the current market.

Much of the current sentiment of for sub fees is not hatred so much as a feeling of the model being old or out-of-date. Simply a lot more people are willing to try & buy on their own terms ala carte than put up the initial investment of box + ongoing sub they are now leashed with.

End game (at least the bit challenging kind) in MMO usually means finely tuned instances with just small groups of players participating, with no influence on the persistent world outside of being source of equip. Do you see the similarities to MOBA games ? In MOBA games you have small groups of players in instances ... except it's usually just pvp or pvbots.

Many people can't afford an ongoing sub or feel they are not getting their sub's worth out of a game. Especially in this age where players have a high degree of choice amid an increasingly dilettantish audience.

I know their reasoning. I know how F2P works. My point is, the argument of "expense" is a bit strange when people probably spend the same cost as a sub fee on a train ticket to work, or on lunch for two days.

I'd rather pay several subscription fees than have to nickle-and-dime every piece of content that ultimately adds up to more.

I'm no snob, but I work a low-paid job at the bottom of the ladder and I still have zero issue with paying several subscription fees. The money argument just baffles me. When you consider that a sandwich from a shop is about a quarter of what you pay in a month's sub.

Originally Posted by Dekadez

Sandbox MMOs are like having sex with a pornstar: Everyone wants it, but when you're getting it, it's suddenly not so awesome anymore.

End game (at least the bit challenging kind) in MMO usually means finely tuned instances with just small groups of players participating, with no influence on the persistent world outside of being source of equip. Do you see the similarities to MOBA games ? In MOBA games you have small groups of players in instances ... except it's usually just pvp or pvbots.

And when I equip items in WoW, it's sort of like solving a good old fashion puzzle, you drag the piece to the right place. Ergo, WoW is a puzzle game.

I've been playing APB, All Points Bulletin for quite a while. It's a F2P third-person shooter MMO set in the modern day, pretty much Grand Theft Auto but in MMO form. All bonuses you can buy are either cosmetics or "shortcuts", that is, bonuses like faster rating gain(rating is APB's equivalent of experience) and weapons that you'd normally have to work for a long time to achieve. So all weapons and such that you can buy you can also get for free, you just have to work for them. The only thing that is completely exclusive to paying members are cosmetics.

In my mind that makes it a non-P2W game.

The community is pretty crap though, sadly... Crap as in, everytime you kill someone you're a "hacker", and everytime someone kills you you're a "noob". But the game is great.

Last edited by Tzalix; 2012-11-14 at 04:17 PM.

Being called foolhardy just means regrets and limits won't ever stop you.

I know their reasoning. I know how F2P works. My point is, the argument of "expense" is a bit strange when people probably spend the same cost as a sub fee on a train ticket to work, or on lunch for two days.

Right, I get it. For me the $15 is just that.

Though as I laid out above by example- it may not be for a good number of people. That alone has an impact on the individual games and genre.

I'd rather pay several subscription fees than have to nickle-and-dime every piece of content that ultimately adds up to more.

Not every game is a 'nickle & dime' affair. And again, depending on POV some prefer the ala carte method of payment. Just as in many other service industries for the most part.

Not every game is a 'nickle & dime' affair. And again, depending on POV some prefer the ala carte method of payment. Just as in many other service industries for the most part.

I think this comes from how different ppl want to approach the game. If you play the game regulary, then paying subscription makes sense. If you want to play once in a while when you feel like it, b2p makes more sense. Same case as having paper subscription vs buying paper once in a while.

Originally Posted by Lycoris

And when I equip items in WoW, it's sort of like solving a good old fashion puzzle, you drag the piece to the right place. Ergo, WoW is a puzzle game.

Whatever, it's a silly line of arguments. I feel like there is a need for a term that describe MO with good support for interaction between players around the world and massive sounds like a good word for it. That by definition it was taken by mo with persistent worlds nobody cares about most of the time is annoying, but oh well.

I hate the "punish into pay"-model, simply cannot support those kind of games.
For some reason enough people like that model in order to have more game developers using that style rather than not.
I dont know the american version of Aion but following the EU f2p version beta it was simply "punish into play".
And I read here and there that EQ2 doesnt allow you to use epics unless you pay? Paid gear advantage is p2win.
Read about old everquest going f2p and crazy restrictions.
But for some reasons it's profitable enough, and if people continue to support the model we will have it around and increased greedyness.
I bet if wow ever went f2p it would have silly restrictions as well, find it hard to see them making a "fair" model when most "big ones" doesnt.
I prefer the old submodel to that, even if I could sub for those games mentioned above it's a matter of not supporting a model, and I also dont want to have advantage over other players just because I opened my wallet. I like fair play and subfees of b2p without no subfees makes that happen, "subfee of choice model" is just hoax according to me

Can play EQ2 freely. The restrictions are not as dire as one may think. It only seems that way due to perception.

EQ1 restrictions make it almost unplayable as a F2P. You will not be effective or efficient as a F2P player. And EQ1 is super fucking grindy-- good luck getting through 19 expansions worth of content in one of the largest MMOs ever made.

I don't really care what business model it is, as long as i enjoy the content.
It can be Free to play, buy to play or subscripton based, as long as you don't get any advantage in the game from buying "ingame" items for real money any model is fine by me.

I think Wow is an example where they kinda stretches the limits for charging the consumers for items, services and so on... you have to buy the game, pay for a subscription, then you have to pay extra for server changes / faction change / character changes, also you can buy ingame items for real money and so on. Some of these things are optional ofc but still.

I currently playing the secret world and have lots of fun, i didn't really like GW2 but this has nothing to do with the business model, LoL for example is not my cup of tea either.

DotA and DotA2 offers you the action without any kind of currency. All heroes are available in the game, you don't need to grind some stupid currency in order to enjoy the hero you like. I really think LoL has a crippled design for an action RTS game. If anything, DotA and DotA 2 are closer to perfection compared to LoL.

About the topic, I really don't mind subscription based model as long as I enjoy the game.