I notice that the texts are written in Tibetan, not the Zhang Zhung script. Do you know if the Zhang Zhung language was pre-Tibetan, and if so, to what language family it belonged? Is there linguistic information available on the Zhang Zhung language?

The film comes to the conclusion that ancient Bon did include "ultimate teachings". But the texts are said to date only to approx. 1400 AD, which is quite late in Zhang Zhung history. This is hardly proof that early Bon contained teachings about liberation. More research needs to be done. In any case, why should Bon practitioners feel that they need to somehow measure up to Buddhism? The shamanic tradition is worthy of respect in its own right.

The Karmapa's website used to have information on Zhang Zhung that said it had been a matriarchal society. Even though the tradition now appears to be controlled by monks, could that have been a later, Tibetan-influenced phenomenon? Practitioners of the older, shamanic traditions, according to film footage I have of Ladakhi "oracles" practicing their craft, are women. Do you have any information on matriarchy in Zhang Zhung, or in Bon traditions, kalden yungdrung? Thank you for posting this film.

Tenzin1 wrote:I notice that the texts are written in Tibetan, not the Zhang Zhung script. Do you know if the Zhang Zhung language was pre-Tibetan, and if so, to what language family it belonged? Is there linguistic information available on the Zhang Zhung language?

The film comes to the conclusion that ancient Bon did include "ultimate teachings". But the texts are said to date only to approx. 1400 AD, which is quite late in Zhang Zhung history. This is hardly proof that early Bon contained teachings about liberation. More research needs to be done. In any case, why should Bon practitioners feel that they need to somehow measure up to Buddhism? The shamanic tradition is worthy of respect in its own right.

The Karmapa's website used to have information on Zhang Zhung that said it had been a matriarchal society. Even though the tradition now appears to be controlled by monks, could that have been a later, Tibetan-influenced phenomenon? Practitioners of the older, shamanic traditions, according to film footage I have of Ladakhi "oracles" practicing their craft, are women. Do you have any information on matriarchy in Zhang Zhung, or in Bon traditions, kalden yungdrung? Thank you for posting this film.

adinatha wrote:There are many good reasons to believe the Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud is from a proto-Vedic culture in the region it claims it is from.

So you mean the Vedas originated from Dzogchen? I don't think there would be any good reasons to believe that.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that the people who brought the Vedas to India where from the region of Rishikas where Dzogchen may have originated. It could mean that the Maharishis were Dzogchenpas and the people who said the Vedas were trying the best they could to preserve some of that knowledge. Perhaps they did not succeed, because the Vedas are not Dzogchen. But when you look at the Gayatri mantra and it's inner and secret meanings, one could get the impression that there is a direct connection between the sun, the mantras and the mind. In any event the people who transmitted the Vedas were from Rishikas/Kambhojas aka Olmo Lungring.

Adhi Nath wrote:I wouldn't say that. I would say that the people who brought the Vedas to India where from the region of Rishikas where Dzogchen may have originated. It could mean that the Maharishis were Dzogchenpas and the people who said the Vedas were trying the best they could to preserve some of that knowledge. Perhaps they did not succeed, because the Vedas are not Dzogchen. But when you look at the Gayatri mantra and it's inner and secret meanings, one could get the impression that there is a direct connection between the sun, the mantras and the mind. In any event the people who transmitted the Vedas were from Rishikas/Kambhojas aka Olmo Lungring.

Tahsi delek,

According Bon sources, did Bon originated in Tazhik a Persian like area. That is the outer area or seen area from Olmo Lungring.People out of these outer areas are still called today Tazhiks. Rishikas, where is that situated? Or do you mean Rishkesh the city of the Rishis or seers meant in the Vedic culture? Maybe are these Rishis connected to the Dzogchen cycle of teachings of Prahevajra, that could be, but according Bon we are not informed about a connection with the Rishis.

Best wishesKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Adhi Nath wrote:I wouldn't say that. I would say that the people who brought the Vedas to India where from the region of Rishikas where Dzogchen may have originated. It could mean that the Maharishis were Dzogchenpas and the people who said the Vedas were trying the best they could to preserve some of that knowledge. Perhaps they did not succeed, because the Vedas are not Dzogchen. But when you look at the Gayatri mantra and it's inner and secret meanings, one could get the impression that there is a direct connection between the sun, the mantras and the mind. In any event the people who transmitted the Vedas were from Rishikas/Kambhojas aka Olmo Lungring.

Tahsi delek,

According Bon sources, did Bon originated in Tazhik a Persian like area. That is the outer area or seen area from Olmo Lungring.People out of these outer areas are still called today Tazhiks. Rishikas, where is that situated? Or do you mean Rishkesh the city of the Rishis or seers meant in the Vedic culture? Maybe are these Rishis connected to the Dzogchen cycle of teachings of Prahevajra, that could be, but according Bon we are not informed about a connection with the Rishis.

Best wishesKY

Rishikas and Kambhojas is the area of what is now called Tazik-Uzbek. Tazik-Uzbek was called Rishikas/Kambhojas maybe 3000-5000 years ago. It was not a Persian like area then. It was proto-Vedic and Proto-Persian. If we are talking 18,000 years ago like the Zhang Zhung texts indicate, we are talking about Rishikas and Kambhojas. These names are mentioned in the Mahabharata describing the peoples from this area who settled in Punjab and what is today Pakistan (where Udyana was). This group transmitted the Vedas. According to the Mahabharata the Maharishis responsible for discovering the Vedas were from Rishikas (land of the Rishis) and Kambhojas.

Incidentally there is a township in Tazik known as Almalyk which sounds like Olmo Lungring. Strangely it is one of the most polluted places on Earth.

Adhi Nath wrote:Rishikas and Kambhojas is the area of what is now called Tazik-Uzbek. Tazik-Uzbek was called Rishikas/Kambhojas maybe 3000-5000 years ago. It was not a Persian like area then. It was proto-Vedic and Proto-Persian. If we are talking 18,000 years ago like the Zhang Zhung texts indicate, we are talking about Rishikas and Kambhojas. These names are mentioned in the Mahabharata describing the peoples from this area who settled in Punjab and what is today Pakistan (where Udyana was). This group transmitted the Vedas. According to the Mahabharata the Maharishis responsible for discovering the Vedas were from Rishikas (land of the Rishis) and Kambhojas.

Incidentally there is a township in Tazik known as Almalyk which sounds like Olmo Lungring. Strangely it is one of the most polluted places on Earth.

Tashi delek,

Very impressive report.

Well John Vincent Belleza would be surprised with your statements or investigations. Also our His Holiness the 33rd Menri Abbot would be very happy to hear our new sources or origination. Also Dan Martin and prof. Samten Karmay would be very surprised to hear this.

Maybe you should contatc them and explain to them your proves, they would like it.

Also i am very surprised to hear our new source.

Best wishesKY

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Interesting that alma, olma etc. means apple in several turkic and even modern Hungarian languages. According to the Wikipedia articlewere the apple trees that gave the name to ancient Almalyk. (Even the name of Alma Ata, the capital of Kazakhsthan originates from this word)If the name of Olmo Lungring has anything to do with apples?

Adhi Nath wrote:I wouldn't say that. I would say that the people who brought the Vedas to India where from the region of Rishikas where Dzogchen may have originated. It could mean that the Maharishis were Dzogchenpas and the people who said the Vedas were trying the best they could to preserve some of that knowledge. Perhaps they did not succeed, because the Vedas are not Dzogchen. But when you look at the Gayatri mantra and it's inner and secret meanings, one could get the impression that there is a direct connection between the sun, the mantras and the mind. In any event the people who transmitted the Vedas were from Rishikas/Kambhojas aka Olmo Lungring.

Tahsi delek,

According Bon sources, did Bon originated in Tazhik a Persian like area. That is the outer area or seen area from Olmo Lungring.People out of these outer areas are still called today Tazhiks. Rishikas, where is that situated? Or do you mean Rishkesh the city of the Rishis or seers meant in the Vedic culture? Maybe are these Rishis connected to the Dzogchen cycle of teachings of Prahevajra, that could be, but according Bon we are not informed about a connection with the Rishis.

Best wishesKY

Rishikas and Kambhojas is the area of what is now called Tazik-Uzbek. Tazik-Uzbek was called Rishikas/Kambhojas maybe 3000-5000 years ago. It was not a Persian like area then. It was proto-Vedic and Proto-Persian. If we are talking 18,000 years ago like the Zhang Zhung texts indicate, we are talking about Rishikas and Kambhojas. These names are mentioned in the Mahabharata describing the peoples from this area who settled in Punjab and what is today Pakistan (where Udyana was). This group transmitted the Vedas. According to the Mahabharata the Maharishis responsible for discovering the Vedas were from Rishikas (land of the Rishis) and Kambhojas.

Incidentally there is a township in Tazik known as Almalyk which sounds like Olmo Lungring. Strangely it is one of the most polluted places on Earth.

And Sudakshina, the king of the Kambhojas, O ruler of men, accompanied by the Yavanas and Sakas, came to the Kuru chief with an Akshauhini of troops.

According Bon sources, did Bon originated in Tazhik a Persian like area. That is the outer area or seen area from Olmo Lungring.People out of these outer areas are still called today Tazhiks. Rishikas, where is that situated? Or do you mean Rishkesh the city of the Rishis or seers meant in the Vedic culture? Maybe are these Rishis connected to the Dzogchen cycle of teachings of Prahevajra, that could be, but according Bon we are not informed about a connection with the Rishis.

Best wishesKY

Rishikas and Kambhojas is the area of what is now called Tazik-Uzbek. Tazik-Uzbek was called Rishikas/Kambhojas maybe 3000-5000 years ago. It was not a Persian like area then. It was proto-Vedic and Proto-Persian. If we are talking 18,000 years ago like the Zhang Zhung texts indicate, we are talking about Rishikas and Kambhojas. These names are mentioned in the Mahabharata describing the peoples from this area who settled in Punjab and what is today Pakistan (where Udyana was). This group transmitted the Vedas. According to the Mahabharata the Maharishis responsible for discovering the Vedas were from Rishikas (land of the Rishis) and Kambhojas.

Incidentally there is a township in Tazik known as Almalyk which sounds like Olmo Lungring. Strangely it is one of the most polluted places on Earth.

And Sudakshina, the king of the Kambhojas, O ruler of men, accompanied by the Yavanas and Sakas, came to the Kuru chief with an Akshauhini of troops.

Yavanas = Ionians. Sakas = Scythians.

Yes. One wonders whether the tales of Buddha made it back to Scyth, and they decided they needed on too.

adinatha wrote:Rishikas and Kambhojas is the area of what is now called Tazik-Uzbek. Tazik-Uzbek was called Rishikas/Kambhojas maybe 3000-5000 years ago. It was not a Persian like area then. It was proto-Vedic and Proto-Persian. If we are talking 18,000 years ago like the Zhang Zhung texts indicate, we are talking about Rishikas and Kambhojas. These names are mentioned in the Mahabharata describing the peoples from this area who settled in Punjab and what is today Pakistan (where Udyana was). This group transmitted the Vedas. According to the Mahabharata the Maharishis responsible for discovering the Vedas were from Rishikas (land of the Rishis) and Kambhojas.

To recap:3000-5000 yBP Tazik was called Rishikas/Kambhojas, at which time it was proto-Vedic, proto-Persian."If we are talking 18,000 pBP, we are talking about Rishikas and Khambojas."

So, Rishikas/Kambhojas existed from 18000 yBP to approx. 3000 yBP? Is there an error here, or is this a culture of extraordinarily long duration that began during the last glacial maximum ? Can you clarify, adinatha? If the Rishikas and/or Kambhojas were proto-Tocharians, they couldn't have existed much earlier than 6000 yBP (depending on how you define proto-Tocharian, or proto-Indo-European).

I think it's likely there were diverse influences that came together over time to create Bon. Possibly a Vedic influence, among others, but that would have been a later influence, if the 18,000 yBP date for earliest Bon is accurate. I think there's clearly an Inner Asian shamanic component, as well. Kalden Yungdrung, are you saying that the roots of Dzogchen could date back 18,000? What is it we're referring to as "Bon" that was practiced 18000 years ago? There was no such thing as Persian or proto-Persian back then. I think more research needs to be done. The picture will become clearer over time, with more research. 18,000 yBP, btw, was the maximum extent of the last ice age, and is believed to have covered all of Inner Asia, although some recent findings in Tibet have revealed that somehow humans were able to live there even during the ice age. All will be clarified over time.