The above question, posed by forum member LJ909,stirred up some heated debate about the term “over-engineered.” Specifically, can there be too much a good thing when it comes to engineering a vehicle? The Volkswagen Phaeton was among the many cars brought up during the discussion.

Critics of the Phaeton are quick to dismiss it as nothing more than an overpriced Volkswagen that could never match the prestige of other premium brands like BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Others, however, saw it as a car with ground-breaking technology including its W-12 engine, dual-paned windows, and what VW claimed was the world’s first draft-free air conditioning system.One forum member threw in a car that he felt represented the opposite end of the over-engineered spectrum: the Dodge Viper. The Viper’s faults? An inefficient engine and lack of standard features found on most economy cars.

Every Japanese car since the turn of the millennium...I fear they are the masters of planned obsolescence. I've never had a SONY gadget last very long, despite how nice and seemingly well made. That's actually an impressive engineering feat, but for evil not good.

For limited example I will cite how many mid-2000s Accords have chameleon-ing paint, while my 20 year old Saab is just a little dull on just the hood paint. Also the "disposable" 60k engine accessories, and how Odyssey transmissions are so thoroughly non-repairable.

Bought my wife a Lexus GS 400, 1998. 300,000 miles on it, and I have invested about 5K in repairs. WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

All this lauding of the old german cars sounds like revisionist history to me. I loved the interior of the Mercedes, the space, the smoothness of the straight 6. I planned on keeping the car for hundreds of thousands of miles. I could afford the repairs, but not the time in the shop. Ironically, I had a 2004 VW Phaeton, too. I am cured of the temptation to own well engineered German cars.

engineering isn't price for the performance.. with your theory, the rolls royce phantom is the most under-engineered car ever :S.. nissan were given a job to make a competitive sports car that will sell for under $100k, and in order to be competitive, it had to perform on par with a 911 turbo.. they did that by using a slightly twaeked ATTESA ETS system found in the old skyline GTR cars.. it is effective and saves further engineering costs.. then on its a matter of keeping material and production process as cheap as possible.. the LFA also had a performance target, and that target was for the sort of person that would buy an SLR mclaren.. someone with deep pockets. So after matching the performance, they can go all out, by using handmade materials, carbon fiber, etc.. it doesn't even have to be effective.. the bugatti veyron uses $20k magnesium indicator stalks, it makes NO performance or functional difference apart from the fact its SUPER exotic peice of interior..

They are not over-engineered, they're made in short development cycles and their systems are not fully evolved. If you have to pull to the side of the highway just to find the rear anti-fog button in the sea of controls, and if your "infotainment" system and built-in GPS is more confusing than your DVD player back home, that car is under-engineered and rushed into the market to meet certain company deadlines.

While I agree with you on your nomination of the Mercedes E class W124 as the epitom of quality engineering and durability, I would like to remind you that even this mighty Mercedes line wasn't fully free of engineering missteps. In the 1990's, Mercedes made the questionable decision of using wiring harnesses made using degradable plastic, therefore most of their cars of the era developed all sorts of electrical problems within 10–15 years as wire insulations disintegrated. It's an easy problem to fix, but costly (mostly manual
Labour costs).

Mercedes Benz W124 series (1985–1995 E Class) represent the peak of over-engineered quality cars. By over-engineered I don't mean complicated and confusing. The car is engineered to perfection, supposedly without budgetary constraints. If you're lucky enough to get your hands on a fully evolved model of the series (1994 or 95 E Class) you will see that it drives and handles better and feels more solid that most ordinary 2012 cars, and equally good, if not better, than many high-end 2012 luxury cars. Also, driver controls are very straight forward and logical, lots of thought went into the human-machine interface to keep it simple and intuitive (completely the opposite of a 2012 Accura, with tens of buttons on the dash). Last but not least, the car is put together so well that after 17 years it feels as solid as day one with no squeaking or shaking.
That's the definition of a proper over-engineered car.

Okay my take on the reason mazda hasn't jumped into the hybrid market:
Have you seen what mazda's slogan is lately? they build cars to be quick and nimble, I don't know about you I haven't seen a car with a battery pack in the middle of it made quick and nimble yet. On top of that Mazda's get pretty dang amazing gas mileage on the highway especially but its not to shabby in the city either. I'd be interested in what kind of car you own at the moment. Have you ever driven a mazda since say 2006 when they updated their line up or more recently 20010?

Actually the Cayman has better balance than the 911 but if you have really driven the two the 911 seems to be the better car because the Cayman S feels slow and the 997 feels like a freight train of power in comparison . Have not driven the Cayman S with Direct injection so would have to reevaluate after that. And as far as the Miata goes uh you need to rethink that one . A Honda S2000 blows the Miata out of the water on every level possible.

Laughing at the Viper comment about the "eniffeciant engine" Really? I call BS on that.
Sure on one hand its large and doesn't boast the best HP/liter ratio however, name another vehical in its class or any class with that much power and torq that delivers much better MPG?
Anyway, 88-92 BMW 8 serries comes to mind, the led dead super car V12 with meiger 300 ponies and all the super tech lowering suspension, lose or tight suspension, variable shift points...Wow 007!

Its relatively easy to say things are over engineered, until you actually go and get a car from the 60s or 70s, and try to drive it year round. The mileage might be somewhat surprising, as well as space, and traction...not to mention it won't meet emissions, and you probably won't walk away from an accident, and AC isn't available. Most of the crazy electronics and features are actually options on current cars that you really don't need to buy, although dealers will stick them in cars on their lots because they make money on them, and people actually do buy them. I don't mind new cars with new ideas, because it might bring good features into regular cars later on that people today don't believe are necessary, like how people in the 60s didn't care about leaded gasoline, AC and airbags.

Completely Agreed. The Phaeton for exmaple is an engeering feat at the price that it is. More luxury and techonology than any BMW or Mercedes for the same or lower price. There is no such thing as overengeering, unless the issue of money is involved. Perfect example: Lexus LFA. Costs 4 times as much as a GTR while delivering a hair better performance.
Engineers rock.

I think of overengineering as a car that has so much time and money spent on engineering that the cost of the car is not worth what you get.
Once again, the Volt fits this category nicely. It cost way to much for what you get especially when compared to the competition.

I think a lot of cars are over-engineered from the standpoint of repiar costs. As was mentioned in a couple other replies, it is getting rediculous as to how expensive it is to fix some of these things. One has to wonder what current cars ten years from now will be like when all of their on board nav screens have failed and you cannot replace them.

test driving new cars a little while back, add on packs were including "rain sensing wipers". I never got to try out the feature, but it sure sounds annoying.
dito the new 300 dollar electric power window I just replaced in my intrepid. again. an old school crank that lasted would be nice.
On the other hand, my new car allows me to turn off the automatic door locking crap, which is nice. so there's that. ive also gotten over the seat belt racket thing, and just put the dang thing on now.
why don't they 'over-engineer' that electronic power steering into the rubbish pile? It's awful. everyone of em.

Toyota lost money on EVERY first generation Prius they sold, but has kept working on the formula until they became profitable during the second generation as sales increased and production costs came down . Now they are not only making profit but have expanded the line, including what is basically a Lexus version . Chevrolet could do a lot worse than to follow their formula (and offer the current bling-mobile Volt or even better, a loaded Opel Ampera as a Buick EREV, much like Lexus offers what amounts to a gussied up Prius hatchback).

One could argue that Mazda's Skyactiv Tech is a little bit Showy. It's kinda just a fancy way of saying that it's aerodynamic. And it's interesting how Mazda hasn't really embraced Hybrid tech in the same way Toyota and Honda have.

Definantly almost all cars nowadays. When I see fancy new additions and electronics in cars, I see more things that will go wrong and cost a fortune to replace. And some of these things can be a distraction while driving, and make cars more complicated. Sure new cars are much more long lasting than the old ones, but id still take simplicity and reliability over expensive reliability. Just gimme a strong motor, air bags, traction control, power steering and brakes, good transmission, and a stylish and simple body around it. Oh, and RWD or AWD of course lol

Comparing driving a GTR to solitaire...I think the people who have driven it would disagree. But I do understand what you mean, about it being able to do whatever the driver tells it to do. I just think "exciting" isn't quite the word for it...

Basically all the new 2012/2013 Ford models. I can't stand that dumb isync/itouch whatever thing.
A Ford owner in a commercial says "it's like driving a computer."
Well lady, I don't think that's a good thing.
And the new German cars are too over engineered. New SL, boxster, S8, S7, all the reviews of it, like in EVO Magazine say the steering is too light and that they're lacking soul.

One car that comes to mind when thinking of 'over engineered' to me are most any of the Lincoln Navigators, or the F150-based LT truck. Excuse me; power folding rear seats, cooling/heating cup holders? Power telescopic steering wheel? I bet if I looked hard enough, Id find a button that..well, you get the picture. And when all those electronics start going kaflooey after the warranty? Better your wallet than mine..

All three of the domestic full size trucks (F-150 in particular) are produced and designed well beyond what would be determined sufficient for the segment. They are now in a race to outdo one another. Upside is we get a great vehicle...downside would be cost and complexity. Try doing anything other than changing oil or plugs and this becomes apparent.

I completely agree. Cars have just gotten way to "electronified" for my tastes ...
It's almost impossible today to get into a car and just stick the key in and drive away ...
Why on earth do we need touch screens, etc.?
I predict that whatever car manufacturer that comes up with an actual reliable and total voice command system and return to simple knobs etc for the climate/audio controls will be the best in the future ... imagine a simple yet elegant dashboard again that you get in and say "Start engine" ..etc.

I would take the over-engineered feel of the germans over the under-engineered feel of the japs anyday. The germans put so much thought and effort and attention into their cars. The japs? Nah, not so much; they feel like more expensive versions of toyotas, hondas, and nissans--basically the same boring entry level cars with extra sound-deadening and nicer leather.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the Volt is under engineered.
Before everyone jumps listen to why...
Until plug in electric vehicles and hybrids can cost the same and can go the same distances as their gas/diesel counterparts, and ALSO recharge as fast as a gas/diesel can fill up they will be / should be considered under engineered.

I completely agree. These advances are great and all, and its makes driving so much easier and comfortable, but in my experience, I see extra options and electronic systems as just one more thing to fail and cost me money to fix. Your not in the minority