I'm curious what the scanlation community thinks about manga aggretator sites releasing chapters on mangaupdates.

Are you alright with those sites paying people to work on these chapters and "steal" every popular project any scanlator group has with the sole purpose that their site release it 1st and be able to generate even more revenue for their site?

Do you think it is ethical big sites like mangareader and mangafox profiting from other peoples work? (Im talking about the authors/ artists here)And lately... they even try to control the scanlation community?

As if it was not enough using scanlators to profit for themselves they even try to bite the hand that feeds them now? They might be thinking something along the lines: "Scanlators are useless we can do those projects ourselves."

I know mangaupdates are trying to be neutral on this matter but when you allow a manga reader site to release a chapter that is not only a new release. That is also extra advertising for them.

Should they be allowed to use mangaupdates for their means of advertising?

I'm posting this here as it is a neutral forum and I would like to see what other scanlators think about this matter?

Any scanlation group can post ads on their site in order to make a profit. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to list their releases here. The database is to list scanlations. If they scanlated them, they belong here.

I would have no issues if MU wanted to prohibit *links* to these sites. Naming them is simply making a record of their activity. Linking to them is directing traffic and increasing their income.

As for the "ethics" question, I don't care much. What they're doing is blatantly and openly illegal. They're not just "using" the books, they're doing it for profit. There's nothing "fair" about that use. If the authors don't feel like suing them, that's their choice. What bothers me is when artist do try to make a site stop, like they did with mangafox, yet the site continues to ignore them and get away with it. But if the artists can't do anything, and the law can't stop them, you might as well just learn to live with it. Don't give them money by visiting them. That's the only thing you can do. If you don't support them, then don't support them by visiting and giving them money.

As for these sites "stealing" scanlations...it depends. If they're reposting other people's scanlations, then those projects should not be credited to that site in the first place. If they're doing duplicates of the same projects other groups are doing, then it's fair use. Anyone with a copy of that book has as much right to scanlate their own version as the groups already doing so. Unless they're using someone else's raws/cleaning/translation/typesetting their scanlation is as valid as any other scanlation of that project. It might not be as good, and they might not have been respectful and polite about doing it, but it's a scanlation and it's theirs. This site lists scanlations - all scanlations of that particular book, not just the version made by the group fans like/respect the most.

Unless MU makes a firm stand in boycotting any groups that have ads on their sites, the fact that they're hosting their scanlation on a site with ads in order to make money shouldn't be a factor in whether or not the scanlation is listed here. That's a slippery slope to make a stand on. You boycot the aggregator sites and you have to check every "personal" scanlator website for ads to make sure they're not doing the same thing on a smaller scale. Then you have to consider that livejournal and mediafire are making lots of money from hosting scanlations. Just because the scanlators aren't pocketing the money doesn't mean those scanlations are being used for profit - and the scanlators are to blame because they uploaded those projects to those for-profit sites. Even paid lj groups and ad-free sites are paying someone to host that content, and that person is making lots of money off it. Unless you stick with irc and the like, there is no such thing as "free sharing" of scanlations. Someone is going to be making money, and personally I'd rather it be the scanlator than mediafire.

Any scanlation group can post ads on their site in order to make a profit. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to list their releases here. The database is to list scanlations. If they scanlated them, they belong here.

I would have no issues if MU wanted to prohibit *links* to these site ...

I think you misunderstood her. She have no problem with any group for placing ads or something like that. She clearly mentioned that she was talking about manga hosting sites. We all know the difference between manga reading sites and scanlators. Manga reader sites are using releases which are not done by them. And to advertise themselves they are using MU as a medium by releasing new chapters. So the topic is not anyways related to profit made by scanlators..... Any group can add their releases here for any project regardless whether other group is doing or not but aggregiate sites who uses releases as a medium to promote themselves should definately be not allowed.

Manga reader sites are using releases which are not done by them. And to advertise themselves they are using MU as a medium by releasing new chapters.

How many releases does a group have to host which are not done by them before they're counted as a "manga reader site" instead of a "scanlation site"? Or is it only the groups who don't have permission to host other people's work who are considered "manga reader" groups? What about groups located on forums who allow members to post and share other people's scanlations without permission. Should those groups not be allowed to list their own releases on MU?

Lots of scanlators bulk up and pad out their collection with other people's projects in order to better feed visitors. The polite ones just make sure they have permission before doing so. The thing that separates these "manga reader sites" isn't that they accumulate other people's scanlations and keep themselves "legit" by releasing a scanlation of their own now and then. It's the fact that they're doing it for money and they're making a lot of it.

Once you remove money from the equation, you're just talking about "theft" - sharing (using) other people's work without permission. Every group that uses someone else's raws without permission is just as bad as the groups who repost other people's scanlations without permission. Yet people on this forum seem to take it for granted that "if you can find the raws online, you're free to use them." MU even has a sticky post promoting the use of "found scans" without permission or credit. So why shouldn't these manga reader sites apply the same "ethics" to scanlations found online? I don't consider mangafox a thief when half the projects they've "stolen" were made using raws those scanlation groups "stole" from some poor dupe of a scanner who didn't even get credited for ruining a book he paid good money for. I prefer honor among thieves that extends to include scanners as well as scanlators. If you don't have any respect for the scanner, don't expect any as a scanlator. But if you get into the theft argument, someone is going to chime in about scanlators "stealing" from the original artist, and that entire debate will fall apart.

I'm convinced the problem here is the money. We're jealous that they're making money and we're not, we're insulted that they're being rude about it, and we're outraged that they're doing it so openly they're causing artists to send out C&D letters to perfectly respectable (innocent) scanlation groups. If MU makes a stand, it should be based off that last point. They're making profit so openly it is harming the scanlation hobby as a whole. As a site based around scanlations, MU should be against those who intentionally try to kill the entire hobby just to make a quick buck.

Like it or not, they scanlate their own stuff and release it...which MangaUpdates exists to report on.

Want to exclude Dynasty Scans and Japanzai as well? I mean, they have extensive readers as well. How about Scanlators that ask for donations? ...

^^^ Seconded to the sun and back. Really Cluadia you aren't being sneaky, projects get stolen; get over it. It happens to everyone.

And to stay on topic. What about groups that don't have sites and only release their stuff on readers? And then there is Batoto and The Company. Should we kick them off because they are a reader site. Yes, we can all agree that mangapirates are rats and need to die. But to do that, shut up about them. They will die in their own time. Like wolf said, they are doing their own work and MU can hardly kick a group off just because another sub-par group is throwing a hissy fit.

Like wolf said, they are doing their own work and MU can hardly kick a group off just because another sub-par group is throwing a hissy fit.

Indeed. MU is the neutral in all these spats between scanlators. It's a database for releases. If it's a legit release, it's gonna be on here, no matter how much you may despise that group.At the end of the day, it's up to the users of this site to choose whether they read the releases or not. I don't see why they shouldn't be given that information though if it's out there and that's what MU is here for.Some people don't give a shit, some do. Let the users make that decision for themselves.

It's more about respect; there is a unspoken rule in scanlation. When we take over a project we usually wait 3 months or talk to the other party before starting.

"We" scanlators aren't doing this for money most us are using our time on this only as a hobby and because we love manga/manwha/manhua.

The same thing happened with aggregated site before. When they started not waiting 24 hours delay on their site. The scanlation world went mad and this is how appeared "Jesus christ page" like Japanzai did everywhere..

What they are doing now is called alienation. I mean talking about mangareader site wasn't MF a good place to hang out before they started replacing the system of contributors..? Now it feels like russian policy.

MU is a neutral party and they shouldn't get involved in all this. But, i think that anyone that have ever been and doing scanlation can only feel sad at how things developped with time. (Come on paid team to do scanlation by mangareader site..?!)

It used to be to fan for fans. Now it's just money as you say. But i personally don't feel jealous at all. Because i still do scanlation with this as a motto and i'd rather stick to myself than run for gold.

It's more about respect; there is a unspoken rule in scanlation. When we take over a project we usually wait 3 months or talk to the other party before starting.

"We" scanlators aren't doing this for money most us are using our time on this only as a hob ...

Your unspoken rule is non-existent. It gets broken every single day, by plenty of groups that only care about getting credit for the popular series, or by groups that just want to scanlate the stuff they care about.

Where were you when Dynasty-Scans had Pastel "stolen"? Where are you every week when Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, etc. get released by 3 different groups?

That's right, you don't actually care about the "unspoken rule". You just want to mark your territory.