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Topic: On the banks of the Bosphorus (Read 2488 times)

New to the forum so I thought I'd make an introduction. Could make for a lengthy story but in a nutshell:

I have wandered the desert of protestantism for 40 years. Raised in the Assemblies of God, spent my early 20s in the "non-denominational" Charismatic Churches, late 20s in a Calvinistic Baptist congregation, was exposed to Roman Catholicism which led to my departure from the Baptists but got side tracked at Canterbury and became an Anglican in one of the continuing Anglican jurisdictions. During this time I became a postulant. Withdrew my postulancy and departed when the jurisdiction I was a member of joined the ACNA due to an underlying liberalism present in that organization. While a postulant I had been exposed to Orthodoxy, attended about a dozen or so services (vespers, matins, and the Divine Liturgy) and a series of inquirer's classes. When we left the Anglicans, I considered swimming the Tiber then but my wife expressed a unwillingness to do so. Therefore, we ended up in our present Lutheran congregation. Most recently, while visiting out of state relatives, we went with them to a VERY liberal congregation - not an experience I care to repeat.

Since my exposure to Orthodoxy, it has been an ever present thought at the back of my mind. And the more and more I examine the protestant reformation and its fruits since, the more I desire to become Orthodox.

My current issue is a spouse who has flatly stated that she has no desire to become Orthodox. I have drug her along through many expressions of protestantism since we were married and I don't have the heart to do so again but yet I also find that it is becoming increasingly difficult fo me to stay. We do have a young child so that is also a concern. Anyway, I humbly seek your prayers as I work through this.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.—St. Isaac of Syria

My advice would be to keep your wife informed about what you are reading from time to time, but not try to convince her of anything.

My wife never had an interest in converting to Orthodoxy. She would go with me to Orthodox Churches though from time to time because she thought they were good/nice/pretty/whatever. Eventually, one day, she told me Orthodoxy was obviously the best church and so let's just get on with it. I'm not saying that is what will happen, but I think you'll have a happier outcome if you just disengage for awhile from talking to her about every detail and especially making arguments pro-Orthodoxy.

I am thinking time is going to be your best ally and may be you can gain some insight from one of Frederica Mathewes-Green's essays (excerpt follows):

"This is more relevant than may initially appear. Something about Orthodoxy has immense appeal to men, and it’s something that their wives—especially those used to worshiping in the softer evangelical style—are generally slower to get. The appeal of joining this vast, ancient, rock-solid communion must be something like the appeal of joining the marines. It’s going to demand a hell of a lot out of you, and it’s not going to cater to your individual whims, but when it’s through with you you’re going to be more than you ever knew you could be. It’s going to demand, not death on the battlefield, but death to self in a million painful ways, and God is going to be sovereign. It’s a guy thing. You wouldn’t understand.

When I asked members of our little mission, “Why did you become a member?”, two women (both enthusiastic converts now) used the same words: “My husband dragged me here kicking and screaming.” Several others echoed that it had been their husband’s idea—he’d been swept off his feet and had brought them along willy-nilly. Another woman told how she left Inquirer’s Class each week vowing never to go again, only to have her husband wheedle her into giving it one more try; this lasted right up to the day of her chrismation. I can imagine how her husband looked, because that’s how my Gary looked: blissful, cautious, eager, and with a certain cat-who-ate-the-canary, you’ll-find-out smile."

I am thinking time is going to be your best ally and may be you can gain some insight from one of Frederica Mathewes-Green's essays (excerpt follows):

"This is more relevant than may initially appear. Something about Orthodoxy has immense appeal to men, and it’s something that their wives—especially those used to worshiping in the softer evangelical style—are generally slower to get. The appeal of joining this vast, ancient, rock-solid communion must be something like the appeal of joining the marines. It’s going to demand a hell of a lot out of you, and it’s not going to cater to your individual whims, but when it’s through with you you’re going to be more than you ever knew you could be. It’s going to demand, not death on the battlefield, but death to self in a million painful ways, and God is going to be sovereign. It’s a guy thing. You wouldn’t understand.

When I asked members of our little mission, “Why did you become a member?”, two women (both enthusiastic converts now) used the same words: “My husband dragged me here kicking and screaming.” Several others echoed that it had been their husband’s idea—he’d been swept off his feet and had brought them along willy-nilly. Another woman told how she left Inquirer’s Class each week vowing never to go again, only to have her husband wheedle her into giving it one more try; this lasted right up to the day of her chrismation. I can imagine how her husband looked, because that’s how my Gary looked: blissful, cautious, eager, and with a certain cat-who-ate-the-canary, you’ll-find-out smile."

That pretty much describes my experience. After I spent time as an enquirer and was already made a catechumen I drug my wife to Sunday of Orthodoxy. She got so uncomfortable she almost walked out. I managed to get her back once more during Lent and then on Holy Saturday she had some kind of strange experience. She was sitting in the dark, candle lit nave looking at the icon behind the altar (Mother of God of the Sign) and all of a sudden she started crying. I don't know why but something touched her that night. Two weeks later she was made a catechemen and we were both received into the Church later that year.

Stepan, we all pray that the Lord direct your steps to every good work.

I'll echo what Fr. Anastasios, Second Chance, and Paisius have all said: be patient. The Holy Spirit is a better "salesman" than any of us, and in fact we can frequently get in the way of the perfect pitch. Go ahead with your inquiry, and keep her informed (periodic updates, not constant play-by-play). Adopt the Orthodox lifestyle into your life as best as you can. Pray for her, and we will, too.

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

New to the forum so I thought I'd make an introduction. Could make for a lengthy story but in a nutshell:

I have wandered the desert of protestantism for 40 years. Raised in the Assemblies of God, spent my early 20s in the "non-denominational" Charismatic Churches, late 20s in a Calvinistic Baptist congregation, was exposed to Roman Catholicism which led to my departure from the Baptists but got side tracked at Canterbury and became an Anglican in one of the continuing Anglican jurisdictions. During this time I became a postulant. Withdrew my postulancy and departed when the jurisdiction I was a member of joined the ACNA due to an underlying liberalism present in that organization. While a postulant I had been exposed to Orthodoxy, attended about a dozen or so services (vespers, matins, and the Divine Liturgy) and a series of inquirer's classes. When we left the Anglicans, I considered swimming the Tiber then but my wife expressed a unwillingness to do so. Therefore, we ended up in our present Lutheran congregation. Most recently, while visiting out of state relatives, we went with them to a VERY liberal congregation - not an experience I care to repeat.

Since my exposure to Orthodoxy, it has been an ever present thought at the back of my mind. And the more and more I examine the protestant reformation and its fruits since, the more I desire to become Orthodox.

My current issue is a spouse who has flatly stated that she has no desire to become Orthodox. I have drug her along through many expressions of protestantism since we were married and I don't have the heart to do so again but yet I also find that it is becoming increasingly difficult fo me to stay. We do have a young child so that is also a concern. Anyway, I humbly seek your prayers as I work through this.

Stepan

Orthodoxy isn't another expression of Protestantism.

A year before conversion, I burned icons (I was conservative, low church, evangelical Lutheran btw).

Is your wife also conservative? Also, where are you located: it might affect logistics on the issue.

May the Spirit guide you all!

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I could have written this myself, except we skipped Anglican and went straight to Lutheranism. I've been Orthodox 4 years and my husband hasn't joined me yet. He's perfectly content in the Lutheran Church. Ditto what everyone else has said. You can't argue anyone into Orthodoxy. Mine was a 6 year journey and each little epiphany brought me closer and closer to Orthodoxy, but I had to go through those myself.

I am most definitely wanting to avoid arguing her into Orthodoxy or dragging her in kicking and screaming. I made that mistake in the past and won't do so again. I do share things I am reading with her on occasion, but avoid picking on protestantism. We are both quite conservative in our views so there are no problems there.

I am fortunate to have a number of choices in Orthodox congregations - Greek, Antiochian, and Russian as well as two different Western rite congregations (one with the Antiochians and one with ROCOR).

She knows that I have shown interest in Orthodoxy but I haven't spoken much of my growing desire to leave protestantism behind me. I will confess that I don't even fully understand why I seem to be so discontent and at times wonder if I am being like that man tossed about by every wind of doctrine - it seems an endless search. My biggest hurdle is the unknown of converting without her. As I mentioned, we have a young child so that adds a complication as well as I would want our child raised Orthodox.

I am currently awaiting a copy of Seraphim Slobbodskoy's Law of God which I plan to start reading. I have also determined that I will also begin, as much as possible under my present circumstances, to conform my life to Orthodoxy through prayer and study.

While it is a great catechical resource, The Law of God is based on pre-revolutionary Russian sources and is 635 pages long. You cannot get more traditional and complete than this book. Do you really think that your wife will be inclined to pick it up and perhaps even read it? You know her better than I, of course, but I would think that a smaller book (or even a couple of pamphlets) written by somebody with an non-foreign sounding name may also be useful. I am thinking of the booklets and books written by former Campus Crusade for Christ leaders, who are now perfectly Orthodox and are usually published by the Conciliar Press.

Or you may want to try any books by Frederica Mathewes-Green - though not everyone's cup of tea, she does make Orthodoxy seem possible, if you see what I mean. After I read "Facing East," I felt like it wasn't beyond the realm of possibility that I could become Orthodox. Her books are short and accessible as well.

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

I am most definitely wanting to avoid arguing her into Orthodoxy or dragging her in kicking and screaming. I made that mistake in the past and won't do so again. I do share things I am reading with her on occasion, but avoid picking on protestantism. We are both quite conservative in our views so there are no problems there.

I am fortunate to have a number of choices in Orthodox congregations - Greek, Antiochian, and Russian as well as two different Western rite congregations (one with the Antiochians and one with ROCOR).

She knows that I have shown interest in Orthodoxy but I haven't spoken much of my growing desire to leave protestantism behind me. I will confess that I don't even fully understand why I seem to be so discontent and at times wonder if I am being like that man tossed about by every wind of doctrine - it seems an endless search. My biggest hurdle is the unknown of converting without her. As I mentioned, we have a young child so that adds a complication as well as I would want our child raised Orthodox.

I am currently awaiting a copy of Seraphim Slobbodskoy's Law of God which I plan to start reading. I have also determined that I will also begin, as much as possible under my present circumstances, to conform my life to Orthodoxy through prayer and study.

Two WRO? Where are you?

What exactly are your wife's objections? The dogma? The exotic aspects (in which case I'd recommend the WRO, which I would recommend in any case). Do you know? Does she know?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I could have written this myself, except we skipped Anglican and went straight to Lutheranism. I've been Orthodox 4 years and my husband hasn't joined me yet. He's perfectly content in the Lutheran Church. Ditto what everyone else has said. You can't argue anyone into Orthodoxy. Mine was a 6 year journey and each little epiphany brought me closer and closer to Orthodoxy, but I had to go through those myself.

Welcome to the forum

If I may ask, how did your husband react to your conversion? How has this worked out since?

While it is a great catechical resource, The Law of God is based on pre-revolutionary Russian sources and is 635 pages long. You cannot get more traditional and complete than this book. Do you really think that your wife will be inclined to pick it up and perhaps even read it? You know her better than I, of course, but I would think that a smaller book (or even a couple of pamphlets) written by somebody with an non-foreign sounding name may also be useful. I am thinking of the booklets and books written by former Campus Crusade for Christ leaders, who are now perfectly Orthodox and are usually published by the Conciliar Press.

Oh no, definitely not something she would read through Actually it is for me so that I may grow in my understanding of Orthodoxy.

As many of you have suggested, the best thing to do is continue studying, praying, and seeking that I may be prepared to give an answer when questions come. I do not wish to to drag her or argue her into anything. Converting without her and the affect it may have is a cause of some concern. I hope in time to sit down with a priest to discuss this.

I am most definitely wanting to avoid arguing her into Orthodoxy or dragging her in kicking and screaming. I made that mistake in the past and won't do so again. I do share things I am reading with her on occasion, but avoid picking on protestantism. We are both quite conservative in our views so there are no problems there.

I am fortunate to have a number of choices in Orthodox congregations - Greek, Antiochian, and Russian as well as two different Western rite congregations (one with the Antiochians and one with ROCOR).

She knows that I have shown interest in Orthodoxy but I haven't spoken much of my growing desire to leave protestantism behind me. I will confess that I don't even fully understand why I seem to be so discontent and at times wonder if I am being like that man tossed about by every wind of doctrine - it seems an endless search. My biggest hurdle is the unknown of converting without her. As I mentioned, we have a young child so that adds a complication as well as I would want our child raised Orthodox.

I am currently awaiting a copy of Seraphim Slobbodskoy's Law of God which I plan to start reading. I have also determined that I will also begin, as much as possible under my present circumstances, to conform my life to Orthodoxy through prayer and study.

Two WRO? Where are you?

What exactly are your wife's objections? The dogma? The exotic aspects (in which case I'd recommend the WRO, which I would recommend in any case). Do you know? Does she know?

Oklahoma.

The Antiochian parish is exclusively WRO, the other is a bi-ritual ROCOR parish.

WRO would probably be more agreeable to her as it would not be to terribly different from the Common Service we now use or the 1928 BCP service we used as Anglicans. However, I have to admit that I prefer the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom.

If I may ask, how did your husband react to your conversion? How has this worked out since?

My husband was supportive of *my* conversion. He just couldn't do it for himself. Since that time it has been mixed. Sometimes he seems annoyed and at other times he seem to care less. But, since he stopped *trying* to be Orthodox himself (he put pressure on himself to come along) life has been much better for the family. It also seemed a bit harder when the kids decided to come along... I guess that's when he started feeling pressure to be with the family. Those 9 months he came to church with me were pretty horrid.

Nowadays we mostly stay quiet about our mutual traditions. Whenever I've tried to share something about Orthodoxy he seems to want to figure out a way to correct it with comments like "That's not in MY Bible." and so forth. I find it's better to stay quiet. He'll occasionally come with us to church but purposely avoids any and all Feasts to the Theotokos.

The Antiochian parish is exclusively WRO, the other is a bi-ritual ROCOR parish.

WRO would probably be more agreeable to her as it would not be to terribly different from the Common Service we now use or the 1928 BCP service we used as Anglicans. However, I have to admit that I prefer the Liturgy of St. Chrysostom.

Make sure *you* really love it and can be happy there for a long time. I have a friend (also former Episcopalian) who went WR for his wife. She declined to join him in the end. I wouldnt' say he's unhappy with the WR parish, but he does sometimes express a wish that he had made a different choice.

As many of you have suggested, the best thing to do is continue studying, praying, and seeking that I may be prepared to give an answer when questions come. I do not wish to to drag her or argue her into anything. Converting without her and the affect it may have is a cause of some concern. I hope in time to sit down with a priest to discuss this.

As you've said, everyone's conversion is different. For my husband and me, it was me that started reading first (I'd been the one over the years to get antsy at a church and start itching to change). Because I felt the weight of this decision early on, there came a point when I decided to not say anything anymore to him about what I was reading. I didn't want it to be me, again, you know? It was less than a month before he asked me what one book he could read that would give him a good introduction to Orthodoxy, and in the end it was HIM that led us forward into the church.

As many of you have suggested, the best thing to do is continue studying, praying, and seeking that I may be prepared to give an answer when questions come. I do not wish to to drag her or argue her into anything. Converting without her and the affect it may have is a cause of some concern. I hope in time to sit down with a priest to discuss this.

As you've said, everyone's conversion is different. For my husband and me, it was me that started reading first (I'd been the one over the years to get antsy at a church and start itching to change). Because I felt the weight of this decision early on, there came a point when I decided to not say anything anymore to him about what I was reading. I didn't want it to be me, again, you know? It was less than a month before he asked me what one book he could read that would give him a good introduction to Orthodoxy, and in the end it was HIM that led us forward into the church.

Praying for you!

I SOOOO totally identify with what you've shared here. I really have decided that when I discuss this with her, it will be with the assurance that I am not going to pressure her or expect her to convert with me and that I am leaving that decision to something between she and God.

Since it has been brought up, what would be a good introduction to Orthodoxy? I have read Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Church", Jordan Bajis' "Common Ground", as well as portions of other Orthodox works. Haven't actually read anything by Frederica Matthews-Green.

I liked Matthew Gallatin's Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells. Our family read this outloud on a car trip one day (after knowing about, reading about Orthodoxy for a month or two and having attended one Orthodox service) and after that we were done for. We officially stopped going to our non-denom charismatic church very soon after that and started attending an Orthodox church. I also recommend Frederica's Facing East and Peter Gillquist's Becoming Orthodox. We were baptized this past January.

I liked Matthew Gallatin's Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells. Our family read this outloud on a car trip one day (after knowing about, reading about Orthodoxy for a month or two and having attended one Orthodox service) and after that we were done for. We officially stopped going to our non-denom charismatic church very soon after that and started attending an Orthodox church. I also recommend Frederica's Facing East and Peter Gillquist's Becoming Orthodox. We were baptized this past January.

Thank you for the suggestions! I will look into these

addendum: I just looked at Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells on Amazon and think this may actually be a very good book because he is a former Calvary Chapel pastor - my wife and I were members of a Calvary congregation (where I happened to be the youth leader and member of the worship team!) when we first were married. Not to mention, that title alone just pretty sums up my entire experience.

I agree with Thankful's recommendation and would add Clark Carlton's book "The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know about the Orthodox Faith". I liked it particularly because it provided footnotes and some backup for his claims. I also liked Frederica's book on icons. It's a nice introduction to them for non-Orthodox.

I just looked at Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells on Amazon and think this may actually be a very good book because he is a former Calvary Chapel pastor - my wife and I were members of a Calvary congregation (where I happened to be the youth leader and member of the worship team!) when we first were married. Not to mention, that title alone just pretty sums up my entire experience.

Matthew Gallatin is a good former many-things! We appreciated his story because he is also a former charismatic/Vineyard type which is what we were before converting. I believe he was also Seventh Day Adventist, if I remember correctly.

I agree with Thankful's recommendation and would add Clark Carlton's book "The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know about the Orthodox Faith". I liked it particularly because it provided footnotes and some backup for his claims. I also liked Frederica's book on icons. It's a nice introduction to them for non-Orthodox.

While I agree that Dr. Carlton is a good writer and an excellent apologist, I also think that his writings are far too critical and polemical for someone who cannot handle some brunt confrontation. His books are more like an assault than anything else. Also, many times he creates straw men in his arguments, sacrificing accuracy for false victory.

Just recieved my copy of The Law of God today (yay!!!) and decided to go ahead and order a copy of the Jordanville prayer book. Until the way is cleared for me to "officially" pursue Orthodoxy, I am determined to begin a more thorough study of Orthodoxy and gradual incorporation of Orthodoxy into my day to day life. I hope to soon make the aquaintance of a local priest as well.

I ask for your continued prayers as I continue my journey.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon me a miserable sinner.....

Just recieved my copy of The Law of God today (yay!!!) and decided to go ahead and order a copy of the Jordanville prayer book.

Good call.

For me, the best way to learn about Orthodoxy was through a prayer book. I don't know about Jordanville, but I have the HTM prayerbook, and there is no way to avoid certain truths — or to avoid internalizing certain dogmas — about Orthodoxy when you read it. However, I don't recommend doing this without being in contact with a priest.

I don't know why, but the convert books all annoy me. This isn't a criticism of those who enjoy that sort of thing, but they're not my cup o' tea.

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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Because the Jordanville book is from the Slavic tradition, I find to to be much more of a sort of "suffering" Orthodox tone than the Greek prayers for whatever reason. But I love the Jordanville book and always come back to it.

Just recieved my copy of The Law of God today (yay!!!) and decided to go ahead and order a copy of the Jordanville prayer book.

Good call.

For me, the best way to learn about Orthodoxy was through a prayer book. I don't know about Jordanville, but I have the HTM prayerbook, and there is no way to avoid certain truths — or to avoid internalizing certain dogmas — about Orthodoxy when you read it. However, I don't recommend doing this without being in contact with a priest.

I don't know why, but the convert books all annoy me. This isn't a criticism of those who enjoy that sort of thing, but they're not my cup o' tea.

Indeed - Lex orandi, lex credendi.

The very first Orthodox book I read was Way of the Pilgrim. I have actually read this about once a year since I first purchased it 5 years or so ago. I've read couple of other books, but not much in the way of convert stories.

Received my copy of the Jordanville prayer book and will soon start using it. I actually have the blessing of having quite a choice of Orthodox churches - Greek, Antiochian, Russian, Ukranian, Western Rite. The WRO is the closest but I'm not all that interested in WRO. The Greek and Antiochian are the next closest, then the Russian. The Ukranian is the farthest.

I do hope to start making regular visits and get to know priest. God willing, I'll not be standing on the outside of Orthodoxy for much longer.