And again, despite being in the minority – I was personally never in any doubt that the majority were wrong.

These days, of course, everyone claims they know Section 28 was wrong. David Cameron – a strong supporter of Section 28 at the time it was introduced – has even apologised for it.

So we – the minority who were always against Section 28 – were in the end proven to be right.

That’s why Remain supporters need to get their balls back. Because being in a minority didn’t mean we were wrong. And now, we are once again the majority opinion in the UK.

Politicians are too afraid to speak out against the EU referendum result because they’re scared they’ll be accused of undermining democracy. And sensible journalists are also mostly too afraid to speak out, lest they’re accused of being in a middle-class, out-of-touch establishment bubble – which of course most of them are.

But I’m not a politician or a journalist. So here’s the truth.

The Brexit campaign was riddled with lies. The so-called ‘facts’ used by the Leave campaign were laughably ridiculous fabrications. Leading Leave campaigners handed out false and undeliverable promises like Bullingdon Club bullies dishing out banknotes at a high-class restaurant they’ve just trashed. And the whole Brexit argument itself was based on gross deceptions, sentimental nonsense and misrepresentations.

Their so-called victory – stolen only with lies and illegalities – wasn’t even overwhelming. And it’s just patently revisionist nonsense to say the vote for Brexit was some kind of ‘working class’ rebellion. The most working class parts of the UK – Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Peckham – all voted Remain. And the majority of young people voted Remain too.

Democracy doesn’t mean accepting bad decisions made by a bare majority of uninformed, ignorant voters, lied to and manipulated by a corrupt media. Democracy means fighting for what’s right and to reverse corrupt decisions which will be damaging to the future of our country and our children’s future.

And yes – I know we’re not supposed to call the people who voted Brexit ignorant. I personally know some very genuine, intelligent people who voted Brexit for the best of reasons. But the fact is, they are a tiny minority.

200 thoughts on “The Brexit vote wasn’t democracy in action. It was populist manipulation on a grand scale.”

The Remain campaign was riddled with lies. The so-called ‘facts’ used by the Remain campaign were laughably ridiculous fabrications. Leading Remain campaigners dished out false prophecies of doom like Bullingdon Club bullies dishing out banknotes at a high-class restaurant they’ve just trashed. And the whole Remain argument itself was based on gross deceptions, sentimental nonsense and misrepresentations.

“The Brexit vote was mostly the result of an unholy alliance between a dumbed-down, middle-class, aging English electorate fed on a diet of Daily Mail and Express propaganda, Thatcherite Little Englanders and openly racist arseholes.”

And now the racists have taken this vote as tacit encouragement to spread their vile propaganda and step up the campaign against immigrants. Hate crime reporting has gone through the roof and people are genuinely afraid. We need to be confronting this head on, because unless you are part of the solution you are encouraging the problem. So let me be clear- YOU DO NOT SPEAK IN MY NAME.

This piece is utterly arrogant, ignorant and and insulting nonsense. If I take my own case, and that of my family, friends and the overall majority of members of my work and social circle; before we voted to leave the EU, we carried out a considerable amount of research on the EU and the unelected EC. We were absolutely horrified by what we found. Far worse than we were aware of and indeed anticipated.

Clearly, there were lies and propaganda on both sides but the Remain “camp’s” threat’s and lies far outweighed those of the “Leave” campaign. Let me give you some examples of what a proportion of young people, known to me, believed about the EU. “Our university tutors have explained to us that higher education funding will be drastically cut if we leave the EU, so we need to make sure we register and vote to remain in the EU”. Explanation: actually, the EU doesn’t have any money, so how is that going to work? Or, “We know that before the UK joined the EU, British people weren’t allowed to work, travel or trade with ‘Europe'” … need I go on? Does this compare with your alleged findings that a minority of people in the UK believe that Mount Everest is in England whatever that has to do with anything at all?

Your point about the majority of young people voting to remain in the EU appears to be correct but I would suggest that a) the lies they were told may well have something to do with that decision and b) my understanding is that only approximately 54% actually voted in the referendum anyway. I have seen figures as low as 34%. Your points about what you viciously refer to as the “dumbed down, middle class, aging English electorate fed on a diet of Daily Mail and Express propaganda…” are clearly grossly insulting. However, of far more interest to me, is that you cannot see the ‘writing on the wall’ due to your personal prejudices and self inflicted blindfold. The EU is crumbling before our eyes and will, I am utterly convinced, implode within the next decade. That is why the majority of us who voted to leave did so. We care so much about our children and young people’s future that we want to begin the journey to a wider national outlook in every way, a global trading nation, without all of the federalism and gross corruption of the grossly failing experiment that was the EU.

Incidentally, I also have fervently believed, and campaigned in the past, not to restore the death penalty in the UK but quite what that has to do with anything I know not.

I still scratch my head and ask why the Govt thought the Referendum vote should have been decided by who scores a result better than 50%. For such a fundamental change to the country, it’s neighbours and allies, I would have thought the bar would be set a little higher – say, Leave to win a minimum of 65% of the votes, conditional on (for example) 80% voter turnout. Instead, less than 25% of the population have determined our future, which has been propagated based on lies.

The right to vote may have been “democratic”, but the outcome is not IMHO.

The vote to join the EEC was done on the same basis. The vote to Leave was at a huge disadvantage financially and politically. To have won the vote against the masses of lies and deceit by the EU, the Government and the various figureheads and groups brought in to scare us (Think Obama, Goldman Sachs, IMF) makes me wonder how a big a majority there would have been without that nonsense. I know that several people voted Remain simply because their has not been a war in Western Europe for a while.

Chris Lovett, World War 3, Emergency Budget, decimation of the economy, Back of the queue to negotiate trade deal with the U.S. etc. etc. Perhaps you could highlight any of the prophecies that have come true.

That is what a referendum involves David Cameron’s biggest failure and which is also inherent in the once every five year vote for the House of Commons membership and incidentally is the kind of politics Jeremy Corbyn wants to change. Whatever next general and emotional intelligence tests for MPs and voters. Or perhaps just abolish voting choice as per Stalin Hitler Chairman Mao North Korea and support the efforts of the Turkish leader to do likewise etc”

Unfortunately the only requirements to be able to vote are being a UK citizen, being over 18 and being registered. Having a modicum of common sense and just a scintilla of intelligence is not necessary. Since 28% of voters abstained it was only 37% who voted Brexit – a “clear mandate” according to a Government which dismissed 39% of junior doctors who voted to reject the new contract as “barely a third” and therefore could be ignored. Don’t even get me started on the 0% who voted for Theresa May to be PM!

Why have David Cameron and Theresa May not fully investigated allegations of Child abuse? Why are these always botched?
Why was Theresa May so incompetent in controlling migrtion as Home secretary? Why have Cameron, May, Osbourne not ditched the austerity fraud that is private central banking?
Why don’t we have the Bradbury pound?
Why do LabLibCon all keep mum about the legal deceit and fraud that is the TTIP agreement?
Why does the EU consent to this fraud of an agreement that wishes to make nation states subsefrvient to corporate interests?
Why did Ted Heath (child abuser) lie about the goal of the EU? He deceived parliament and successive PMs have consildated orhidden the trajectory of the corrupt superstate that is the EU.
Rejecting the deceits and lies of the EU and hence wanting out of that cesspool in no way means we do not have statist lackeys in the UK to eject.

“Democracy doesn’t mean accepting bad decisions made by a bare majority of uninformed, ignorant, small-minded voters. Democracy means fighting for what’s right and to reverse decisions which will be damaging to the future of our country and our children’s future.”

This little paragraph was pure gold, I’m sorry, but I think first you need to know what democracy actually means before you start changing its definition, here is the definition for you since you probably couldn’t be bothered to look:

“A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.”

I’m sorry mate I don’t see your part of the definition there or am I ignorant and small minded, so therefore I can’t see it? Please tell me, because it’s dam right insulting.

I’ve seen Many articles, journalists and even political figures do this, change the world meaning of a word to suit their arguments. So I’m very surprised that you have also done the same for your ignorant readers and do that they can blissfully evade all the rubbish you are “trying ” to support.

Do us all a favour and just accept the result, so instead of moaning we can work to a workable solution.

“we carried out a considerable amount of research on the EU and the unelected EC.”

That very comment proves you a liar. You did no research, you uncritically parroted nonsense spoon-fed to you by demagogues, feeling vindicated in utter political illiteracy.

Heck, you are galllingly ignorant about the British political system, please don’t tell me you did your homework on the EU. Under the current system, the President of the EU commission has ten times the democratic mandate than the Prime Minister of the UK.

tyelko Jennifer Lindley’s comment does not in anyway prove she is a liar. As you have no way of knowing what she did or did not do (unless you know her), your statements about what she did and did not do simply prove that you are a liar. In addition you have no way of knowing what she thinks of the British political system, so again you are just making it up as you go along.

Quite the contrary, Mike, I can see from her statement that she considers a)the EC unelected and b)that fact remarkable, ignoring the fact that not a single member of the UK government is elected into their specific office and that in fact there is probably no government in Europe which is directly elected into office (not even the Swiss do that). Unlike the UK government, however, the EC requires the explicit confidence of parliament to assume their offices.

The UK prime minister is appointed by the Queen, he/she then picks and chooses whoever she wants – per custom a member of parliament, but it can equally well be an unelected peer, being a member of the House of Lords and thus of parliament. And even members of the Commons were elected into the office of MP and by a tiny constituency, not the electorate at large.

If she had done her homework, she would not have found the notion of an executive not being directly elected by the people in any way remarkable, since it is absolutely standard. The fact that she pointed that fact out demonstrates that she did NOT put in the work but rather parroted tropes.

“The only two differences between 2012 and 2015 are that: (A) In 2015/6 the Greek economy is ever more frail than it was in 2012, its people closer to the edge of desperation. And (2) In 2012 the troika’s toxic, illogical ‘program’ was being implemented by a government representing the corrupt, oligarchic ancien regime responsible for the crisis. In 2015/6 the troika’s ‘new’ toxic, illogical ‘program’ is being implemented by a government of the Left, thus denying the Greeks the hope that elections could stop the unnecessary pain.”

“That is a recipe for disaster for Greece, Italy, and Spain (collectively, 100 million citizens) and for the EU. It is financial madness – and that ignores the political instability it will cause to force an EU member nation to twist slowly in the wind for 50 years.”

tyelko you are being disingenious. Surely you see that there is a difference between the people electing officials who make laws (e.g. MPs in the House of Commons) and the people electing officials who cannot make laws (e.g. MEPs in the EU parliament) You also have not replied to the main issue which is that you called her a liar whilst lying yourself.

Yes, I agree with all that Tom says. In fact, I am at a loss really to understand why there is so much antipathy to the EU. It’s kept the peace amongst member states, and we face our own immediate problems with Ireland and Gibraltar, as well as – by withdrawing – possibly encouraging Putin. Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland didn’t have to sign up to the Euro, and it was their own fault that they were fiscally irresponsible – by intriducing that discipline, the Irish have retrieved the situation. We will need to take on board EU legislation, but we will no longer be able to influence it – how crazy is that? – look at the environment the chemical and pharmaceutical industries work in for starters. British higher education and research does very well out of EU students and EU grants – where will the shortfall be made up? Many Brits enjoy the right to live in other EU countries – for work or retirement – it’s tragic that these opportunities may be reduced, especially in a global and interconnected world. And so on and so on.

Davis Alcock, you talk about the EU keeping the peace between member states, yet there is no way whatsoever that you could prove that to be the case, indeed it is more likely that globalisation and NATO are far more responsible. I am able to see some merits in membership of the EU, so I am amazed that you cannot see any downsides as there are a lot of them. Why do you say we will need to take on board EU legislation? Surely all we will need to do is comply with their trade requirements just as we have to do currently with every part of the World including the EU. Why on earth do you not think EU students will not come to our Universities in the future? They did before we joined the EEC and they will do after we leave the EU. Many more British expats live in regions of the world other than the EU than live in the EU so I am not sure why you think this will not happen.

Re-establishing our historical trade links with most of the World’s major economies is an outward-looking and positive way to trade in the global inter-connected World. Indeed it is the anachronistic EU trade bloc method that is isolationist and inward-looking.

I have to say that I agree with you 100%. The electorate is appallingly ignorant. I have asked a number of Leave voters for the rationale behind their decision. The result has made me weep. The level of ignorance is mind-blowing.

The first person I asked insisted that by leaving the EU we would be able to deport folks like Abu Qatada and Abu Hamza immediately, and Jamie Bolger’s murderers would never have been let out of prison. When I pointed out that these were Justice issues and therefore not EU but ECtHR which was not what he had voted on, he had a hard time understanding the difference. In fact, I’m not sure if he did ever actually grasp it.

Neither he nor any of the others I asked had the faintest clue how the EU works, how what it decides translates into UK law or anything else. When they gave their reasons the descriptions they used were lifted straight from the Leave Campaign and the tabloid press. They talked about “taking our country back” but could not explain what that meant. They spoke of “unelected officials making EU” law but they didn’t know who they were, how many there were of them or how many actually voted on EU law. One said he didn’t like “Paris and Berlin telling us (UK) what to do” but couldn’t explain how they did so.

None could tell me how many MEPs there were or how many UK MEPs there were. I live in Scotland and two, only two, could tell me how many Scottish MEPs there were, and even neither could not tell me which parties were represented. When I said we had a UKIP MEP, one flat out called me a liar.

Some talked about immigrants and the problems associated with it not being controlled, but when questioned further, their understanding of the difference between EU immigrants and refugees from the Mid-East and economic migrants from other parts of the world was sketchy to say the least.

So yes, I agree with you 100%, the Brexit vote wasn’t democracy in action. It was populist ignorance on a grand scale.

bjsalba, there was immense ignorance on both sides, but also very knowledgeable people as well. Many Remain voters I spoke to had zero understanding of how the EU works, how and by whom the rules are made, who their MEPs are etc. This highlights not a lack of democracy but a lack of knowledge about the EU. This is not surprising as the EU is fairly secretive in much of what it does.

Whatever way you look at it, we (collectively) democratically voted in a Conservative government who had made a promise of a simple IN/OUT referendum. The referendum that we collectively voted to hold, was held and everybody had the chance to vote. There was a very large turnout and Leave won with nearly 10% more votes than Remain despite the efforts of project fear and the use of tax-payers money to peddle misinformation about the EU.

If there was anything undemocratic, it was the way in which one side had access to public funds whilst the other had to rely solely on donations.

For the first time in my life my vote has actually counted and all I get from Mr. Pride is to be insulted for not agreeing with his political opinions and voting the ‘wrong’ way. Well, my vote counts just the same as everyone else’s…that’s how a referendum works; maybe should have more of them.

Re Jennifer Lindley – a couple of points. Firstly, the EU does indeed support university studies in the UK through Erasmus, but also through massive funding of research depts and teams, creating international centres of excellence for UK students to access along the way. The effects of Brexit on universities, both in terms of the loss of EU grants, and the mass withdrawal of candidatures for teaching and research posts and undergraduate places from the EU have been fully documented recently – google King’s College, Wales, etc. Secondly, yes, no free movement will not prevent a UK citizen from ever being able to work in the EU, but it will certainly make it as difficult, uncertain, and bureaucratic as it was 40 years ago, subject to the whole old panoply of certificates of good conduct, proof of income, proof of job offer, proof of employability, residence permits, work permits, visits from local police, health checks, proof of vaccination, etc, etc, etc. And proof of language capability. Basically, what you heard from the students was true. They have lost access and choices.

I was and am a Remainer who believes that the EU has to reform. I also believe it will. While Juncker, who doesn’t matter, was still being defiant the night before the ref, there was almost no coverage of Tusk, who, representing the Eur Council, does matter, saying that the rise of the far-right and left had demonstrated across the EU that it had failed to carry citizens with it in its headlong rush to union. And that for the foreseeable future, the whole idea of union had to be regarded as just Utopian. These views were echoed by several other govts. Sarkozy, who may be the next French President, has revived his two-tier EU plan to allow greater autonomy to member states. The UK will not be any part of reform, and should have led it. Instead, the sight of what is happening in the UK, and the absolute and ill-understood chaos of the consequences of Brexit as they begin, has led to soaring support for staying in the EU in countries such as Denmark, traditionally very Eurosceptic, up from 50% to 70%.They want to stay and reform.

I respect the votes of Leavers who understood what they were voting about, and I respect, in a way, the votes of those who knew nothing but what The Sun et al told them. But I have no respect for what seemed to me in parts of the UK I know well, the Midlands and the SE, a near-universal Leave vote amongst educated, literate, Internet-savvy middle-class people who told me they believed we’d left the Court of Human Rights, that Cameron’s concessions would still apply, that EU funding would continue-???-, that trade deals could be struck with individual member states, that China and Co would line up to trade with us ( and the Chinese govt has just said it would take 12 years to negotiate, and they’re pulling out on investing in the meantime),that the City, generating 15% of UK tax revenue will stay (without the banking passport, not a hope), etc,etc,etc. And that now we could sell home-made jam at fetes – we always could.Nor had they considered the NI border, the reaction of Scotland, and the increase in illegal migrants from across the Channel, because there is no reason at all for the French to hold the line for us forever at Calais, and when negotiations get tough, they won’t. So start on a Jungle in Kent.

Finally, on getting to choose the migrants we want – over 90% of fruit and veg in the UK are picked by migrants. There has been a collapse in applications to come. ZDF ran a programme about young doctors and nurses – they no longer want to come and work for the NHS, despite its offering the highest salaries in the EU. The UK is seen as unstable and anti-foreigner, thanks to the xenophobes and racists in the Leave campaign. Leave voters who are horrified at the increased wave of racist harassment since Brexit, have work to do to counter the dreadful image of the UK that has emerged. The people we want no longer want to come. It might be useful to follow EU media before getting too keen on the idea that they need us more than we need them. And be just a little bit humble about what this vote is inflicting on us for at least 20 years.

Democracy as I understand it is not the dictatorship of the majority, it is protecting the rights of minorities. Well, part of what democracy is. Other parts are separate lawmaking, judicial and executive authorities, elective representatives and so on. For me, the main thing is that it is not dictatorship of the majority. Rather the opposite. But I can totally understand why some people struggle with the concept of democracy, what it is and what it is not.

I am a Remainer (old enough to have campaigned for this first time round in 1975). Like a dutiful democrat, I spent the run-up to the referendum persuading everyone I met to vote. The great majority of the young whom I spoke to had not planned to vote until I turned my persuasive charm on them. I was unnerved to find how many of these were going to vote to leave. Gradually, the awful truth dawned on me. I would have done better to discourage everyone, and yet I do feel that previous generations beginning with Magna Carta fought to have a say in the government of our nation, and the least we can do is to exercise that right I think Democracy literally means ‘rule by the people for the people’. A bit late, but the best way of avoiding situations like this in future is the (re?)introduction of civics lessons in school. I think that, although legally Parliament is not obliged to follow the referendum results, parliamentary democracy itself would be threatened were we not to do so.

Agree with you except for one point……the majority of the electorate did not vote leave. The Leavers are a minority – 37%. Those who wanted change voted, so Leave represents the ceiling on the number backing Leave. Britain as a whole does not back Brexit.

MPs set the referendum as non binding so some voted Leave as a protest against Cameron and some did not vote as it was meant to go Remain and was not binding.

MPs are meant to use the referendum to inform them not to mandate their action.

The majority of the electorate, no, but I wonder when the last time was that an election was won by the majority of the electorate – the majority of those who actually voted is all that is required to form a government. The problem is that no one mentioned before the referendum that it was not binding on parliament. And the great majority of the Brexiters believe that they have been promised that Britain will now leave.

Separately, it is worth pointing out that the result was only as close as it was because of the votes in Scotland and Northern Ireland – just in England the Brexiters had a very comfortable majority.

Thank you for labelling me and another 17 million voters as “uninformed, ignorant, small-minded”. Why is it that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is to be denigrated? Just for your information I worked for and with the European Commission for a number of years – so I’m not uninformed, I’m a graduate of Oxford University – so I’m not ignorant, I refuse to denigrate Remain voters – so I’m not small-minded either.

You’re a graduate of Oxford University, but you seem to utterly revile anything you experienced there, since you actively pursue the undermining of its academic standing, the funding of its research and the credibility of its staff.
And you say you’re not small-minded?

tyelko: What happened to Greence? Why and how was it trashed? Why did the IMF apologise? Who wants austerity across Europe? Who makes the decisions in Europe? Why does the ex Finance Minister of Greece call the EU undemocratic.? Explain why I am ignorant. Don`t just say it. Back it up.

It was trashed because the Greek governments first forged their financial data to get into the Euro, then abused the leniency of the other Eurozone governments to indulge in debts, keeping sundry people occupied and employed by a bloated public sector and allowing tax dodging to become a public sport. When that construct collapsed during the financial crisis, they could not meet their obligations anymore.

“Why did the IMF apologise?”

Because the savings mandated were too much, too quickly and did not allow for investment into ensuring Greece could maintain a competitive economy. That doesn’t mean the massive reforms especially in the public sector weren’t necessary.

“Who wants austerity across Europe?”

Sundry people. Both affluent AND poor. What you miss is there’s plenty of countries which already underwent harsh reforms, and they, from top to bottom, don’t take kindly someone else wanting to have their cake and eat it, too. And the taxpayer in donor countries want their own governments to be conservative with guarantees and loans, too. It isn’t as easy as “That’s the bogeyman”, I’m afraid.

Not to mention that “austerity across Europe” is a strawman, since austerity in the UK has nothing to do with austerity elsewhere in Europe. It’s a Tory idea unconnected to the EU in any fashion.

“Who makes the decisions in Europe?”

The member nation governments, jointly.

“Why does the ex Finance Minister of Greece call the EU undemocratic.?”

For the same reason as everyone bitches and moans about the EU – it’s much easier than to admit having screwed up oneself. He promised things he could not achieve, that’s of course frustrating, and it’s much more convenient to blame it on someone else than, for example, on his own negotiation style.

Mike Paterson, for anyone who wants to know how the EU works, how and by whom the rules are made, who their MEPs are etc. all they have to do is look at the Europa website, where it is all there, in some detail. Not exactly secretive… The fact is that the level of ignorance of the British public about the EU and how it works is appalling – but not because the information isn’t there, if they could just be bothered to go and educate themselves. Then they might understand that the people actually voting in the laws are their own politicians (via the EU council) and the ELECTED MEPs… The so-called ‘unelected’ EC that everyone keeps banging on about, has no power to do anything except propose and draft legislation, usually at the request of the Member States. This is neither undemocratic nor secretive. The idea of having a referendum and asking the public to decide on something as complicated and multifaceted and also as important (to the whole world, not just to the UK) as EU membership was insane. The fact that people did it in such a state of ignorance is criminal.

I think you are part of the minority that think they are never wrong. I think that you are arrogant enough to believe that your opinions were correct at the time these designs were made. You need to understand that you have to change things with the will and backing of the people you can’t just decide your right so f**k the rest of the population because they are idiots.
If you think that the EU was perfect then you are the idiot and I an wasting my time explaining to you who the world works.
If you believe the EU was not perfect and you believe that staying in and trying to change it was a good idea them you are not and idiot but deluded enough to think that after we had vote to stay we would have more leverage an when Cameron tried and failed to get the concessions Great Britain had asked for.
I am proud of the fact that I am not a “Thatcherite Little Englander” or a “Racist Arshole” .
I am proud that I vote leave the EU.
I am proud that I still live in a democratic ” Great Britain” where decision are made on the here and now, not 30 years later when society has changed and the majority are in agreement.
I am proud not to be ignorant enough to believe that anyone who does not agree with me is an idiot.
Times change, when the time is right the people will decide. Force decisions on the majority and you have chaos.
You should now just get behind this great county and shout from the roof tops how much we are going to achieve in the global market instead of try to speared doom and gloom hope to prove yourself right.
Be careful you might get what you wish for!!!!!!

Mike Paterson, there was NO vote to join the EEC. We were taken in by our government in 1973 because they, rightly, saw that we were being left behind by the members of the EEC. Wilson decided to call a referendum for pretty much the same reason as Cameron; to quell rebellious back benchers
Somewhat to his surprise, the result in 1975 was to remain.
We should never forget that we elect our MPs to decide on complicated issues on lights behalf. The public can never be expected to make informed decisions on such complicated issues. If you ran a referendum on hanging, it would be won by the hangers. If you ran a referendum on abolishing income tax, that too would be won by the abolishionists. Neither outcome would be in the best interests of the country and they would illustrate perfectly why referenda, in general, are bad idea. The one on 23rd June was a very bad idea indeed.

I agree if the intention was to remain we should never had a referendum.
To vote to remain would only weaken any chance of changing all of the thing that were wrong with the away.
The only option was to vote leave and hopefully it will initiate the changes needed for the counties that remain.
Perhaps then they will thank Britain for saving the EU and grant us favourable leaving terms…. But I doubt it.

It would be interesting to know whether the people who are confused about the locations of Ayres Rock and Mount Everest were the older residents who have lived here all their lives or the younger ones who mainly voted to remain and know where you can buy the best iced skinny flavoured latte.

Without that vital link the article may well just be shooting itself in the foot.

Conservative policy is the same as the global elite`s policy in Europe. Now we can get rid of the Tories, in theory anyway. But locked into Europe it is impossible to get rid of the European elite and their economic policies.

Also please note, we`re still in Europe. There are good reasons to think that Brexit is not going to be allowed to happen. However, Europe is disintegrating.

This is a really good interview between Yanis Faroufakis and Noam Chomsky discussing Greece and the European Union. It does reveal the lack of democracy in Europe and who pulls the economic strings. I`ll leave it here for anybody who wants to broaden their understanding..

I guess you are also the kind of person who tells their doctor to shut the f*ck up and lecture you on what’s wrong with you. Because, after all, whether someone is ignorant or not is not defined by their education and knowledge on an issue, but whether or not they agree with you.

No one said the EU was perfect – that’s just the usual dishonesty we’ve come to be used from from Bexiteers, “proud” to engage in demagogy. But those “faults” cited by you and yours exist primarily in your imagination. And the fact that you fundamentally reject the concept of free speech and want to dictate what opinion people should voice speaks volumes. Your ancestors died to prevent people like you from running the UK, you are proud to spit on those who defended the freedom of your country, inasmuch as they are still alive, and pee on the graves of those who have died.

Lots of ignorance on both sides. But the emoji-style “arguments” (esp. the unwarranted slurs) on Facebook from Remainers were really frighteningly unreasoning. There was so much massive, dumb-brain, home-grown propaganda and deaf-blind aggressive assertion that I began to doubt the desirability of democracy.altogether.

However, if you want very well-informed fact and reason from someone who was recently asked to give evidence to a Select Committee, add this site to your reading list:

It was such an ill-informed decision. I know in theory a referendum is a very democratic way to make a decision for a country, but when 52% of 70% of the electorate voted to screw things up so badly for the country, based on a campaign of fear-mongering, lies and misinformation, the 48% have every right to be pissed off about this, although if the latest polling research is to be believed, we are now the 55%, since so many people have since indicated they regret their vote.

I assume John Platts is one of those Thatcherite Little Englanders and definitely deluded if he thinks this country is ‘Great’, although it’s about to get a whole lot less great as the economic consequences of Brexit start to hit.

I get really wound up when I read idiots like John Platts write that we should now all get behind Brexit, as if he and the Brexit campaign would have gone away had they lost by a narrow margin. Sorry John Platts, but you laid a huge turd in the bed, don’t expect me to help you clean it up. Have you not been watching the news? It’s no longer predicting what would happen, it’s reporting what is happening, i.e., pound tumbles, volatile stock market, economy shrinking, job losses announced, brain drain already starting, France overtook UK to become 5th largest economy in the world within hours of the vote. You might not like is, but us true patriots are not going to go away and do everything in our power to make sure Brexit doesn’t go through, no matter how much Union Jack flag waving morons such as yourself protest.

Chris, the fear mongering, lies and misinformation came much more from the Remain campaign. You say that I voted to screw things up for you, this is of course utter nonsense. I voted to leave because I believe (after years of thought and diligence on the matter) that we will be better off out of the anachronistic backward-thinking EU. I have seen no such polling, indeed the polling I have seen shows that there would be little or no difference if we were to vote again. As time moves on, more and more Remain lies are being shown for what they were.

Chris, I also am a true patriot and like most other Leave voters, will do everything in my power to make sure hat UKExit does happen. You seem to try to denigrate those of us who disagree with you with foul language and spin. Get over yourself.

Mike, you may well think you are a true patriot, but you are deluded, especially if you are saying the lies came from the Remain campaign, yes the Remain campaign correctly predicted it would shrink our economy and crash the pound, cause market uncertainties, job losses and a brain drain … that is exactly what is happening, to have said otherwise would have been lying … compare this with the £350 million extra a week that the Leave camp said we would have for the NHS, which has since turned out to be complete bullshit, along with hundreds of other lies and misinformation from Brexit.

You are a moron who voted for Brexit, so obviously facts are something you will be big on, however, the fact you have not seen such polling evidence does not mean it does not exist. If another referendum were to be held it looks like Remain would win, because the lies of the Leave camp have been called out. Of course Leave do not want this, because they are chicken and know they wouldn’t win. It’s not often I agree with that ignoramus, Farage, but I’m with him with this when he said shortly before the referendum if the result was 52:48 in remain’s favour, his fight would go on and he would push for a second referendum. I agree with Nigel, it’s too much of an important decision, let’s have a second referendum to be absolutely sure this is what we want as a nation. I don’t want it and I personally know several people who voted to leave or didn’t bother to vote who now wish they voted to stay in the EU having seen the negative fallout from the Leave vote.

If you sprinkle glitter on a turd, it is still a turd with glitter on it. Brexit will be a disaster for the British economy, even if Thatcherite Little Englanders and openly racist arseholes continue to wrap a Union Jack around the turd and pretend the catastrophic economic consequences of Brexit are not happening.

“You seem to try to denigrate those of us who disagree with you with foul language and spin. ”

Where did I use foul language? Although I agree, when talking about the stupid twats who voted for Brexit it is fucking difficult to refrain from colourful language, however, having reread my previous comments, I couldn’t find any foul language you dopey cunt. .

Reblogged this on Look There's a Bear and commented:
I know I haven’t posted in a while, but I read this today and found it to be an eloquent, well-sourced and convincing account of the shambles that was the EU Referendum.

You make every effort to prove his point. It’s hilarious when an enemy of free speech compares critics with dictators. If anyone is a Castro wannabe, it’s you Brexiteers who declare that your opinion must not be questioned or criticised. Combined with your hounding foreigners through the streets, you’re about as much about democracy as Comrade Stalin.

Tom Pride really is a special kind of stupid and seems to confuse his opinion with fact. It was more a case of the working classes of the nation sticking-it to the arrogant, elitist, middle-class snobs of London & the home counties. Democracy is democracy and you can’t sulk when it doesn’t go your way nor can you call for additional referendums until you get the desired result. If you want to lose what shreds of pride & dignity you have left by complaining then by all means carry on but fact of the matter is the people have spoken. The Government/Remain campaign failed to bullshit the nation using our tax money and now we can look towards a more prosperous future with a more globalcentric economy. Most of those who voted to leave did so for very good reasons.

Chris, you need to take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror, Your obnoxious and odious comments reveal your level of intelligence. You are one of those rather stupid people that cannot believe that somebody has a different viewpoint and that they therefore must be a moron. I am glad that I do not know you in the real world.

You have to love the whining of the Federasts, you really do. Every day brings in another pathetic screed from yet another loser who really cannot come to terms with the totality of the defeat that we handed out on the 23 June 2016.

Here’s the thing: if you wanna make a socialist omelette then you crack a few capitalist eggs. The biggest egg of them all is the EU and by God we cracked that one good and proper.

Chris – you have used the words deluded moron, racist arsehole. that you then say you have looked through your posts and cannot see any foul language and proceed to spout yet more. I guess you are rather poorly educated for which I can only pity you.

Mike, deluded moron is not a swear word, in your case it is a fact if you think Brexit will make Britain great. Racist arsehole was quoting the author of the article and posted after you wrongly complained I used foul language.

Ken, as if the Brexit crowd would have gone away if they had lost by the smallest of margins. The 48% are not going away, as we care about our country too much, especially now the Brexit campaign has been exposed of one of lies, misinformation and racism wrapped around a Union Jack flag masquerading as patriotism.

We don’t want to lose our European Citizenship and the many benefits that come with it, we don’t want to live in a country governed by bigots, we don’t want the economy of the UK dow be downsized and shrink, we don’t want job losses, we don’t want to leave the EU and it is becoming apparent that many people who did vote to leave the EU regret their vote and now do not want to leave either.

Bwahahaha.
“Make a socialist omelette”. And I have a plot on the moon you might be interested in.
As for “totality of defeat” thanks, Comrade Stalin, the fact that you want to abolish any and all elections from now on is duly noted.
The only one you defeated was yourself, as no one will be punished more by this than those who dupe yourself into being “winners”. There will be howling and gnashing of teeth. Do you seriously believe that MORE money will flow to disenfranchised regions? The EU was the only entity keeping those regions alive.

Mike, I take having my intelligence questioned by a flag waving deluded moron who voted Brexit who still thinks it was a good idea after the disastrous consequences have been widely reported in the news, as a badge of honour.

I have kids and you have voted to screw up their future. I have nothing but contempt for the xenophobic Little Englanders who voted for this idiocy. I’m proud European. I’m proud to be part of the 48% who are going to fight Brexit, which was a campaign of lies promoted by Rupert Murdoch, the Tory Right, and odd balls such as UKIP, the EDL, the BNP and conspiracy theorists like David Icke who claims the world is run by shape shifting lizards.

Mike, I wear that as a badge of honour to be called an ignorant buffoon by a flag waving Little Englander moron that thinks Brexit will make Britain great.

Of course, you do not wish to converse with me, as you know you cannot win the argument. The disastrous effects of Brexit are already being felt, even though I cannot see how it can be implemented, as the new Chancellor said he wants to maintain access to the European Single Market and implement Brexit, negotiations of which back into the Single Market cannot be started until two years and one day after Article 50 is implemented, and if anybody seriously believes the three clowns, Bo Jo, Fox and Dumbass Davies will be able to negotiate more favourable access to the Single Market than we already have then they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Yes of course you don’t want to debate, as once you pull the away the Union Jack that you hide under, there is is no intellectual validity to your argument, or in layman’s terms, you are an arsehole.

Reblogged this on In the Dark and commented:
I agree 100% with this, and will also continue to campaign for the United Kingdom to remain a full member if the European Union. As the grim economic reality starts to bite, I think many will wake up and stop the madness before it’s too late.

This whole sordid Brexit mess can easily be fixed. We just need to repeal the original parliamentary Act that gave the vote to the working classes. Then we can do the same with women’s votes and those aged 65 plus. Problem solved! Only hummus eating, elitist, condescending, anti democratic home owners aged between 18-59 should ever be allowed to partake in democratic processes. Quick-someone start a petition!

It’s cute when antidemocratic rabble who can suffer no opinion but their own accuse others of being antidemocratic.

Hint: Just because you are a lazy, irresponsible bum who knows only rights and no obligations doesn’t mean that others take their civic duty of casting their vote responsibly and inform themselves properly as negligently as you.

You are absolutely correct and many people have said what you say but maybe not loud enough and not in the best places. Looking at some of the replies you have it is quite amazing how these so called Brexiteers firmly state untruths with no fear of correction. I believe that the BBC was particularly guilty during the campaign of not querying errors and untruths from the leave campaign. Of course the Leavers now compound their lying by accusing the BBC of being biased against them. My MP was a strong Remainer but has now been knighted and made leader of the Conservative party: he is now firmly in favour of “making a success of Brexit “. How can we force these politicians to see sense and do what is best for the country (after all they mostly believe remaining is better)? That is the big question .

Chris, there are some remain voters on here that believe in democracy and then there are people like you, who believe if you shout loud enough you will get your own way. Grow up!!!
You claim in your colourful language, that you are not willing to help clean up the mess the leave voters made.
Then you proclaim that you are fearful for your children’s future but you are going to do anything you can to lengthen the economic downturn because you didn’t get your own way. You seem to have forgotten your children’s future very quickly.
You also see the leave/remain argument in a very narrow minded way. You only see the economic argument but not the social argument and I am afraid it was the social argument that your children would need to be procected from.
I voted leave not beleiving the lies that both sides put out to try and frighten us into voting one way or the other and knowing that there would been an economic downturn, which even the most hardened remain voters know will pass as all downturns do.
I voted leave because I did not want my family and your children to see the country rip its self apart because some people believe that we were being asked to integrate to many immigrants to quickly. Yes, some of these people are racists and always have been and to them one immigrant is to many. To others, living in streets were they don’t hear English spoken, were their children are the minority in the classrooms is pushing them to become racist. No everyone is ready to be that multicultural and until they are forcing the issue will only lead to a country filled with race hatred and that will spill over into the streets with part of the population attacking the other part for no reason that the colour of their skin or the language that they speak. It would have got worse and worse until your children would not be safe out on their own and you would find it very frightening walking in some areas of the cities and town. It will not be the fault of one side or the other it will be your fault because you want to force multiculturalism on people who are not ready for it. You have to allow change to happen at a speed the people can cope with.
So I am happy that I voted to allow your children to grow up in a safer more peaceful society . It may not be as wealth for the next few years, but if it’s the money that’s more important to you you are teaching your children the wrong moral values.

LOL, coz nobody who ever wanted to leave Europe ever shouted much in the last decade or so. The truth is I’ve hardly ever shouted about Brexit, because I didn’t think the country would be so fucking idiotic to vote to leave the EU. I wish I had shouted from every rooftop in the UK at the top of my prior to the referendum “Do not vote to leave the EU, it will destroy the economy of the UK, loose all your privileges of EU Citizenship, the pound will plummet, unemployment will rise and Britain will be international laughing stock and once more the sick man of Europe.”

Well done Brexit, forcing me to create jobs for Spanish people instead of in my own country.

This is democracy, where people have differing views and given the outcome of the referendum was so close can you honestly expect those who deeply and profoundly do not want us to leave the European Union to go away and shut up? Therefore we will fight to persuade those who now they realise they were lied to by the Leave camp and have also seen the disastrous economic consequences of Brexit to join us in our crusade to reverse this utterly stupid and ridiculous Brexit vote.

Just had Remain narrowly won, we would still have to put up with the with the likes of Farage continuing the battle and demanding another referendum, so you will have to put up with some of the 48% of the 70% of voted and the million plus who have changed their mind whinging about this stupid Brexit vote and doing everything in our power to stop it going through.

Not once does the author of this article say why, in his opinion, we should stay in the EU. Weird or what.None of the remainer snowflakes seem to have any idea how or what the aims of the EU were or are.

Just in case you did not read my last post, I have directed straight to you. I cannot Beleive if you have read it that you have not given your reasoned answers as to why you prepare your children to face unrest in the streets rather than a few years of economic struggle.

“Chris, there are some remain voters on here that believe in democracy and then there are people like you, who believe if you shout loud enough you will get your own way. Grow up!!!
You claim in your colourful language, that you are not willing to help clean up the mess the leave voters made.
Then you proclaim that you are fearful for your children’s future but you are going to do anything you can to lengthen the economic downturn because you didn’t get your own way. You seem to have forgotten your children’s future very quickly.
You also see the leave/remain argument in a very narrow minded way. You only see the economic argument but not the social argument and I am afraid it was the social argument that your children would need to be procected from.
I voted leave not beleiving the lies that both sides put out to try and frighten us into voting one way or the other and knowing that there would been an economic downturn, which even the most hardened remain voters know will pass as all downturns do.
I voted leave because I did not want my family and your children to see the country rip its self apart because some people believe that we were being asked to integrate to many immigrants to quickly. Yes, some of these people are racists and always have been and to them one immigrant is to many. To others, living in streets were they don’t hear English spoken, were their children are the minority in the classrooms is pushing them to become racist. No everyone is ready to be that multicultural and until they are forcing the issue will only lead to a country filled with race hatred and that will spill over into the streets with part of the population attacking the other part for no reason that the colour of their skin or the language that they speak. It would have got worse and worse until your children would not be safe out on their own and you would find it very frightening walking in some areas of the cities and town. It will not be the fault of one side or the other it will be your fault because you want to force multiculturalism on people who are not ready for it. You have to allow change to happen at a speed the people can cope with.
So I am happy that I voted to allow your children to grow up in a safer more peaceful society . It may not be as wealth for the next few years, but if it’s the money that’s more important to you you are teaching your children the wrong moral values.”

“I voted leave because I did not want my family and your children to see the country rip its self apart because some people believe that we were being asked to integrate to many immigrants to quickly. ”

you’d rather see the country rip itself apart because some people aren’t as blinkered as you are. It’s hilarious when Brexiteers declare Scotland not a part of “this country”.

“To others, living in streets were they don’t hear English spoken, were their children are the minority in the classrooms is pushing them to become racist. No everyone is ready to be that multicultural and until they are forcing the issue will only lead to a country filled with race hatred and that will spill over into the streets with part of the population attacking the other part for no reason that the colour of their skin or the language that they speak. It would have got worse and worse until your children would not be safe out on their own and you would find it very frightening walking in some areas of the cities and town. It will not be the fault of one side or the other it will be your fault because you want to force multiculturalism on people who are not ready for it. You have to allow change to happen at a speed the people can cope with.”

Thanks for confirming Chris’s points. And thanks for confirming you are not just a racist but utterly ignorant about the EU.

But hey, those German scientists working at the Medical Research Council really were criminal scum, right, playing the cancer-curing heros at day while preying on innocent British children at night? And those Swedish engineers at the local car manufacturer, woaah… don’t want to meet them late at night in a pub.

That Romanian nurse is probably experimenting on the children she treats at the local NHS hospital, right? They are all so dangerous for children. After all, they got that educashun thing, and nothing is more dangerous than that…

“So I am happy that I voted to allow your children to grow up in a safer more peaceful society . It may not be as wealth for the next few years, but if it’s the money that’s more important to you you are teaching your children the wrong moral values.””

But teaching them racism and wilful ignorance is of course a valuable moral value?

You are such an egotistical self inflated prick. You don’t like it why don’t you crawl up your own arse and fuck off!!! because without the likes of you maybe the rest of the country can get on with rebuilding something worthwhile for people who believe in British values. And before you bang on about intelligence and negatives and how stupid everyone but you are, it’s your narrow minded bullshit that will suppress the advancement of everyone and not just the pocket lining of the rich. You arsehole.

What “British values” would that be? Sloth and wilfull ignorance? No, it’s not his “narrow minded bullshit” that suppressesd the advancement of everyone, it’s your being a lazy bum who is so narcisstic that you’re not only too lazy to educate yourself, you’re dismissing anyone not as lazy and actually doing their homework.

But yeah, it’s disgusting that putting in the time to learn something pays off, right? Better people like you would get anything you want shoved up your arse without doing anything for it. After all, the concept of responsibilities, obligations and duties is utterly alien to you. All you know is that it’s perfectly natural that you have your cake and eat it, too.

It’s hilarious when the “arsehole” who would even lecture their doctor how to conduct an appendectomy gets all worked up about people declaring him stupid for believing he can lecture people with greater expertise.

I now see why Chris has such bizarre views and immediately jumps to foul and abusive language. Have you been partaking in the raw product of your produce Chris? What a storyline, fervent Remain camapigner says he will take jobs that he hasnt yet created to Europe’

Hi tyelko,
Yes, anyone who is against forcing people to except ideals that they are not ready for is heading for social unrest but I, unlike you, can see the need to move to multiculturalism at a natural rate not one force upon by the EU.
As to me being racist, which is the battle cry of all remain voters if the word immigration is mentioned, nothing could be further from the truth.
My wife is from a mixed cultural marriage, part Irish part Bangladesh, my wife and daughter are of the Muslim faith. My farther in law once told me that he had been in total agreement with Enoch Powell in as much as you cannot rush integration, it has to happen slowly.
So yes I voted leave for the safety of my family and the safety of your family. It does not take much for minor skirmishes to escalate to major conflict and once the touch paper has been lit it is very hard to turn back. It seem Germany hasn’t learnt the lessons from its past, give the people some to blame and they will hate them with a passion that leads to violence.
So you carry on complaining about how the economy downturn is going to hurt your children but if all the hateful, crude and disgusting remarks written on this topic do not show you that your family and this country will be hurt far more by continuing your campaign you are burying you head in the sand.
I am a true multiculturalist, not a racist, and firmly believe in total integration. I don’t believe in towns within towns and cities within cities and this take time to achieve. The EU has its own economic agenda which, like you, it puts above all else.
That’s why we needed to come out of the EU.

We’re never going to leave the EU in reality are we. There’ll never be a government elected in the UK who will throw the country under the bus on the racist whim of a few million uneducated and angry middle-aged failures looking for somebody to blame.

Michael, It is nit throwing the country under the bus. The leave vote is not in any way racist, (although of course racists will use any tactic to further their evil agenda) indeed I suggest that reducing the automatic access of domicile to the mainly caucasian Europeans in favour of greater access to the rest of the world is anti-racist and that to want to remain in a trade bloc that ensures discrimination is the racist thing to do. I would also suggest that there seem to be many millions of undeucated and angry middle-aged failures looking for someone to blame and that you are one of them.

Whilst voting Remain myself your basic arguement is flawed. One cannot make a comparision between Section 28 and the vote on Europe. Section 28 is a moral arguement, Europe a political one. It is tenuous to say that the majority of the electorate were against Section 28 as there was no vote. Majority of Parliament and a majority of society are 2 different things. Therefore your basic arguement is naive to say the least.

Join the long list of remain voters, who are in a minority and argue black is white. You do are chances of remaining in Europe very little good. Infact you damage it.

John Platt I want my children to be in a Britain that is part of Europe. You contradict yourself by saying you want out of Europe because it will be better for the UK then write some tosh that I put the economic agenda first. Well if that means not wanting to see the economy of this country destroyed then yes economic agenda is important, but I also like my right to freedom of movement and travel, free health care, environmental laws on a European level, since pollution doesn’t respect national boundaries. Since I’m not a racist the immigration issue simply doesn’t bother me like it does you and I really not believe immigration is the fault of all our countries woes. In fact, immigrants contribute positively to the economy. You do realise that we take away freedom of movement after Brexit

1) you are screwing things up for your fellow compatriots who might be a little adventurous and want to get off this island from time to time and enjoy living and /or working in another European Country

2) if we want to retain access to the Single Market, we have to accept the freedom of movement. I take it you want to retain access to the European Single Market, the new Chancellor does, please tell me how we can keep access to the Single Market, without losing our right of freedom of work and travel in EU member states, while at the same time not accepting freedom of movement for people to live and work in the UK

Brexiters often talk about the Norway option (EEA), but in Norway they have freedom of movement and a higher proportion of immigrants than UK. Most UK immigrants come from India, which is not in Europe anyway. Some academics have argued that Norway has less sovereignty then other EU member states, since they are subject to EU laws, but have no say in shaping them. Norway also pays more into the EU than it gets back.

I thought Mike Patterson stated he was never going to engage with me again, but as a fervent leave voter, we should not expect him to keep a promise. As a matter of fact, my investors did tell me to move our new company out of the UK as a result of Brexit and I have spent the last few weeks in Spain where we are in the process of creating jobs that would have gone to Britain. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36835566

“Have you been partaking in the raw product of your produce Chris?” – sorry I do not understand your question. We’re producing cosmetics, what has that got to do with anything? Yes I’ve used our soaps, shampoos and creams. Typical Brexit voter, don’t answer the issues at hand and make a stupid comment that is completely irrelevant. I have presented logical and consistent arguments as to why Brexit will be a fucking disaster and all you come back with is pious comments about my occasional usage of swear words (it is 2016) and claim I have bizarre views and swear because of my choice of hand creams, soaps, shampoos and conditioners. Very strange man.

Jennifer Lindley said:
before we voted to leave the EU, we carried out a considerable amount of research on the EU and the unelected EC. We were absolutely horrified by what we found. Far worse than we were aware of and indeed anticipated.

So you were horrified to find out that the 28 heads of the EU Civil Service were not elected? Why? The Commission is actually the Civil Service for the EU. They draft legislation, they can propose legislation but they do not vote on it. That is no different from the British Government system.

It’s obvious from just a cursory read that the pro-Brexit voters are truly victims of their own propaganda narrative. There are so many examples here, but one typical one is the easily rebutted fib that the Remain campaign claimed the WW3 could follow Brexit. Rather, it was their own propaganda outlets that invented this idea to ridicule the Remain campaign when Cameron mentioned the positive role the EU had made to keeping peace in Europe. He was quite measured in what he said, as is easily verifiable, but reporting this accurately would not have served the propaganda ‘project fear’ narrative. The fact that the EU was awarded the Nobel peace prize with a detailed citation explaining its role in keeping the peace was of course ignored by the Sun, Mail etc. Even the ‘neutral’ BBC never mentioned this rather salient fact.

We don’t make decisions about lesser matters, like where a new runway should be built in London, by allowing a deliberately misinformed public to take a blinkered punt.

Britain and particularly the younger generation deserve better than this.

I support continued membership of the EU. The issue is how those of us 48% who voted to remain can prevent the process of leaving being initiated. I propose the formation of a pressure group acting alone or in alliance with others to persuade MP’s to exercise their judgement and not be dictated to by the referendum result They should reject any attempt to leave the EU. At the very least there should be a second referendum on the outcome of any negotiations if the leaving process is activated. My reasons for this are given in various posts above; such as It is not in the broad national interest to leave, 28% of voters may have abstained but silence does not mean consenting with the [slim] majority. If you want to stay let your MP know!

Reblogged this on Musings of a passion junkie and commented:
The minority are right far more often than people care to admit – whether that measure is on the scale of a referendum, or an individual. Populism is never a reliable benchmark.

Ruth, not sure how you can backup your statement that the areas of highest immigration voted remain.
The three towns and cities with the largest percentage of immigrants, Slough, Luton, and of course Birmingham, all voted leave.
Then consider the northern towns such as Bradford, Barnsley, etc all voting leave.
It might be worth while re-examining your statistics and your geography. Or perhaps you should join us thick leave voters who think Everest is in England

John, you might want to reexamine your own statistics and geography. The area with the highest percentage of foreigners by far is still in and around London. Areas such as Ealing with over 40% of foreign-born population voted Remain. Harrow, likewise with almost half the population foreign-born voted Remain – and with an over 9% lead.

Compared to that, Birmingham was basically a tie, the Leave lead was well below 1%.

It might also be worthwhile to consider what kind of immigration we’re talking about. I know people like you blame the Fall of Man on the EU, because Britain, categorically, cannot be responsible for anything and an Englishman is genetically prevented from being at fault, but having your ancestors loot the planet off riches and then blaming it on the EU when the former subjects of the Crown follow the money deserves a special kind of contempt.

The EU has nothing, nothing at all, to do with immigration from Pakistan, and the fact that the Rotherham incident was repeatedly instrumentalised in discussions with Brexiteers underscores just how rampant ignorance on immigration issues is. It’s all an issue of “If it’s bad, it’s the EU’s fault”.

Tyelko, you seem to be tagging me as a racist.
I’m not sure of your credentials to be classed as a multiculturalist but I can assure you I am.
Religion, originally Protestant then Catholic married a Muslim. My wife is Bangladesh/ Irish.
Many British citizens that have been in this country for many years are worried about over immigration. I believe in intergration not suffocation. Countries should not being forced to take immigration that it cannot cope with.
Your true colours seem to be on show in as far as you are picking out people from Pakistan as a problem that is not of the EU making. So who is the racist. Immigration without integration is the problem not what nationality.
The traditional long estabished immigrant areas voted leave. They see the signs of future unrest stating because of over immigration.

John, I said nothing to suggest you were a racist. It seems to me you want to divert attention from the fact that your claims about votes from areas with a lot of immigrants were off.

That is further reinforced by your dishonest suggestion that _I_ suggested that people from Pakistan were a problem when I said nothing of that sort. I pointed out that I’ve seen the Rotherham scandal being brought up time and again when portraying the problems immigration supposedly brings, ignoring that it had nothing to do with the EU.

As such, your comment about “signs of future unrest” is merely the usual trope. You fail to present any justification for such supposed signs being reasons to vote “leave”.

It speaks volumes that you react this vociferously and with a smear campaign to being called out on making wrong statements.

Firstly the 2011 census has Birmingham at 47% of it population “not white British” an increase of 8% in ten years. So I think it depends on where you get your statistics from. So I am certainly not diverting attention away from my claims.
As to you not calling me a racist. The remark “people like you” and then go on about these people not wanting to welcome people from commonwealth, does describe me as a racist.
Your mention of Pakistan and Rotherham and the fact that you are trying to distance the EU from it, says that you believe there is good and bad immigration. That is racist. Where as I believe you can just have to much of a good thing.
As to the unrest, you can aready see it starting throughout Europe. How long do you think these attacks will be allowed to go on before there is retaliation.
Once the retailistuon starts there are “racists” that will not care where you are from you will not be a native of the country that you reside in and therefore be s target.
So I say again I voted leave to protect all immigrants that are now living in this country and may they enjoy it peacefully but if we are force to inigrate to many to quickly you will get a reaction. The EU should have just allowed Britain to restrict immigration and we would have had a remain majority. So if you want to blame anyone for us leaving the Eu blame the EU.

True that being in a majority does not automatically make you right but it makes your views those of the majority. Also right and wrong suggests a black and white answer which is narrow minded. This is typical self righteous thinking that presumes to know why others think the way they do.

Tyelko,
If you accept that all the counties of Europe have a far right racist element, which you do, can you also not see that the logic of your argument is lost on them. They do not care if you are a first generation immigrant or a fourth generation immigrate ….you are an immigrant. When there is a huge influx of immigration it allows these people to generate hate and when some of the immigrates are violent they use this to incite violence. They do not care if you are from the EU or from India or Syria to a racist you are an immigrant.
That is why people who have been settled here for generations have voted to leave the EU. That is why I claim that the areas with the greatest populations of ” non white British” ( immigrants over many generations) voted to leave the EU.
The EU has a great economic plan, whether it is good or bad, is irrelevant if it is put before the safety and stability of the member nations.
Britain is not the only country worried about the social fabric of Europe. Talk is about how Britain should have remained to help change things.
That means that the EU is to blame because if they were ever going to alter their thinking it would have been when Cameron asked for their help before the election.
So as more and more attacks happen throughout Europe, for whatever reason, (the racists won’t care) the tit for tat retaliations will escalate.
I personally do not wont to by attacked because I am white and I do not wont may family attacked because they have an immigrant background.
I as much as I cannot definitely say that the economical downturn will be short lived, you cannot definitely say that our countries will not enter a period of major social unrest.
I personally prefare my family to be poorer and safe, than not poorer and unsafe.
Let’s face it you wouldn’t be any better off if we remained you just maybe wouldn’t be any worse off.
Having said all of this, I am sure that you will go back to blaming it on imperialism, but that won’t change a thing it is the here and now that matters not the past.

You jumped up sanctimonious little prick. How dare you call the majority of the Brexit voters dumb and ignorant and small minded. You are laying bare your own prejudices by saying that the majority of Brexit voters read the DM or Ecpress. Grow up for gods sake you little child.

“If you accept that all the counties of Europe have a far right racist element, which you do, can you also not see that the logic of your argument is lost on them. ”

And that is an argument why?

So you say because there are antivaxxers, we should stop vaccinating people and let liars like Wakeland run the show? Because there are creationists, we should stop teaching science? After all, you already declared the entirety of UK academia a bunch of idiot morons who got their Nobel prizes through corruption and graft by your vote.

“They do not care if you are a first generation immigrant or a fourth generation immigrate ….you are an immigrant. When there is a huge influx of immigration it allows these people to generate hate and when some of the immigrates are violent they use this to incite violence. They do not care if you are from the EU or from India or Syria to a racist you are an immigrant.”

And of course that’s a valid argument?

“That is why people who have been settled here for generations have voted to leave the EU. That is why I claim that the areas with the greatest populations of ” non white British” ( immigrants over many generations) voted to leave the EU.”

Which is irrelevant to the point you wanted to counter, namely the fact that the areas with the highest immigration, i.e. foreign-born inhabitants, those people who actually do know immigrants, voted Remain.

So you failed to counter that point, instead constructing a dishonest strawman, as with pretty much all pro-Brexit arguments.

“The EU has a great economic plan, whether it is good or bad, is irrelevant if it is put before the safety and stability of the member nations.”

You demonstrate just how correct the initial point of the blog post is – complete and utter, abject ignorance about how the EU works.

No, the EU has no “great economic plan”. The EU is not a singular planning entity. It is composed of its member nations and it is the member nations which call the shots. That this is done by votes and agreements and not by simply agreeing to whatever your nation wants is not a bug, it’s a feature.

“That means that the EU is to blame because if they were ever going to alter their thinking it would have been when Cameron asked for their help before the election.”

No, it means no such, thing, but thanks for confirming that your main beef with the EU is that it doesn’t jump to the British fiddle 100% of the time and people on the continent simply sign over their sovereignty to little Englanders.

“So as more and more attacks happen throughout Europe, for whatever reason, (the racists won’t care) the tit for tat retaliations will escalate.
I personally do not wont to by attacked because I am white and I do not wont may family attacked because they have an immigrant background.”

Right, of course, facts are irrelevant, propaganda is the new truth, and attacks supposedly in “retaliation” are immediately justified through libel and propaganda.

You don’t want your family attacked because they have an immigrant background? Like hell you do. You are promoting attacks on them by justifying racist attacks and lending credence to racist propaganda. I’d suggest you think long and hard why xenophobic attacks in the UK increased massively after the Brexit vote. Maybe read your paragraph above and think about what you are saying there.

“I as much as I cannot definitely say that the economical downturn will be short lived, you cannot definitely say that our countries will not enter a period of major social unrest.”

I can certainly say that the social unrest in the UK has increased, not decreased, after the Brexit vote, and is much more likely to further increase than decrease.

“I personally prefare my family to be poorer and safe, than not poorer and unsafe.
Let’s face it you wouldn’t be any better off if we remained you just maybe wouldn’t be any worse off.2

Let’s just face it, you did jack sh*t to make your family safer, quite the contrary, you made it so that the probability of them being attack is massively higher than before and now are frantically trying to justify that for you, unwittingly even going further down that road by continuing to spread racist propaganda uncritically.

“Having said all of this, I am sure that you will go back to blaming it on imperialism, but that won’t change a thing it is the here and now that matters not the past.”

Right, and of course, reasonable analysis is useless waste of time, whereas uncritically parroting the Daily Mail and the Express will contribute to improving the situation.

Just like your Doctor is a useless hack who wasted his time in medical school and all those other academic idiots should never have thought that studying an issue would lead to any superior knowledge. Boris, Gove and Farage all know so much more than the likes of Paul Nurse, Peter Higgs, Stephen Hawking, George Akerlof or Angus Deaton.

Great piece, but to be clear the links you’re citing at the end aren’t evidence that most people are ignorant, they’re made up PR ‘studies’ designed to serve as an advert. Most British people don’t actually think Everest is in England, that’s an advert by a dodgy PR company, and ironically just the kind of falsified loss and propaganda you’re criticising in the rest of the piece. I’d suggest you delete those lines, or replace them with ones that are derived from credible sources. But the rest is all good!

(Disclaimer: I lecture about those kind of PR studies for journalism students at a couple of universities)

I voted out because I studied the EU, neoliberalism, global economics and politics.
I know Brexit is the best way forward and the attitude of remainers to Brexiteers is akin to the snobbish and arrogant attitude the KKK has to blacks in America – you can’t see the good in anyone who has a differing idea to your own. Poor judgement is a sign of ignorance.

Yes, poor judment is a sign of ignorance. Such as comparing criticism of your opinion with the KKK, when it’s your fellow Brexiteers who are hunting people in the streets of England.

It speaks volumes that you believe the KKK is merely “snobbish and arrogant”. But it’s to be expected from someone actively fostering hate crime.

You claim you have “studied the EU, neoliberalism, global economics and politics” – you are a liar. You don’t even remotely know what studying something looks like and the only snobbish and arrogant attitude here is that of lazy Wendy Bradley who believes to know more about the EU, global economics and politics than all the Nobel laureates of Britain who dedicated their life to having a bleeping idea what they are talking about. You are lazy and arrogant because you believe you can get all the authority with none of the work.

“Everyone who doesn’t agree with me is an ignorant stupid racist, but I’ll concede that 4 or 5 Leavers in the entire nation (I happen to personally know) aren’t so therefore you can’t accuse me of arrogance!” Check.

“I can’t answer difficult challenges to my perception of the EUtopia so they’re all lies!” Check.

This whole article is saturated with sophistry, superiority complex and staggering arrogance. The comment about the vast majority of English people believing Everest is in England only goes to show the level of contempt and dare I say it – racism – the author has for the British.

Hi Tyelko,
I was surprised that you didn’t reply to my last post. Now I no why. You actually agree with me. There is already unrest in the streets.
You can claim it is for this reason or that reason but that doesn’t matter, the fact is because of forced immigration we have attacks undertaken by misguided people name of religion. We have misguided people, who though mistrust and fear, are racist “hunting people in the streets”
You do not have to be an expert to realise that these two facts do not generate peace and integration.
So again I am going to state that the remain voters either do not understand the dangerous path they want to take us down or they just have not even considered the social unrest forced immigration can cause.
If it is neither of these two options then it is quite simply they are putting wealth over social stability.
The EU should hold back on it immigration program until it has educated people on how to live together and that can only happen when you start to except other people’s piont of view.
I do agree that economic problems are going to be caused by leaving the EU and they probable effect me far more than you. On the other hand you seem to be in denial as to the fact that social unrest should be taken into the equation.
That’s why the EU need to educate people with unbiased facts not just the facts that favour their own objectives.
The EU have done a study on the effects of immigration, which was back in 2006. It claimed that there were many gap in the information it had on the effects on the native population. I guess the gaps are now being filled in, a bit to late.

“This whole article is saturated with sophistry, superiority complex and staggering arrogance. The comment about the vast majority of English people believing Everest is in England only goes to show the level of contempt and dare I say it – racism – the author has for the British.”

Coming from someone who considers himself more knowledgable than the entirety of British academia, that’s rich, Project much? Staggering arrogance and superiority complex is rather on the side of hacks like you who believe studying is for sissies and Nobel laureates pure hacks compared to your own glory.

“You can claim it is for this reason or that reason but that doesn’t matter,”

Yes, it very much does matter what triggers it.

“the fact is because of forced immigration we have attacks undertaken by misguided people name of religion.”

False. The fact is that the majority of these attacks had nothing, nothing at all, to do with recent immigration, and the only “force” behind them was the collapse of the French colonial Empire.

” We have misguided people, who though mistrust and fear, are racist “hunting people in the streets” ”

And you have nothing better to do than to justify their actions by supporting their rhetorics and confirming their prejudice.

“So again I am going to state that the remain voters either do not understand the dangerous path they want to take us down or they just have not even considered the social unrest forced immigration can cause.”

Or they actually got their facts straight rather than running after cheap tropes.

“The EU should hold back on it immigration program until it has educated people on how to live together and that can only happen when you start to except other people’s piont of view.”

Right. Let’s accept antivaxxers, creationists, and any other frauds and quacks as just another point of view. Let’s support Neo-Nazis in spreading their propaganda, it’s just another point of view after all. Holocaust denial and all the other good things should be actively promoted.

There is no “immigration program” by the EU. And you are complicit in any attack out there by promoting such disinformation.

“That’s why the EU need to educate people with unbiased facts not just the facts that favour their own objectives.”

“Unbiased facts”? You are hilarious. You have no interest in “unbiased facts”. You have repeatedly spread patently false information.

“The EU have done a study on the effects of immigration, which was back in 2006. It claimed that there were many gap in the information it had on the effects on the native population. I guess the gaps are now being filled in, a bit to late.”

I guess you are filling them with Neonazi propaganda and feeling all proud about aiding and abetting them in the name of the “safety” of your family.

You still haven’t grasped that it was the Brexit vote, and not “immigration” which triggered the peak in attacks. But hey, all is good as long as you can lie to your wife that you are doing everything to keep her safe while promoting the propaganda of people who would beat her to pulp without blinking.

“Coming from someone who considers himself more knowledgable than the entirety of British academia, that’s rich, Project much? Staggering arrogance and superiority complex is rather on the side of hacks like you who believe studying is for sissies and Nobel laureates pure hacks compared to your own glory.”

What on Earth are you talking about, Tyelko? You don’t know me. I don’t consider myself more knowledgeable then the entirety of British academia. I certainly don’t think studying is for sissies and I don’t have grandiose perceptions of my own “Glory”. There is literally nothing in my original post that would give anyone reasonable grounds to reach those conclusions. You’ve drawn those conclusions from your own prejudice. You’ve just pulled those conclusions out of your arse. But then, I guess I must be a “Hack” because I had the audacity to disagree.

But please, tell me more about how I’m projecting – but who am I kidding – I’m guessing I’m just in for insults and name calling now, huh?

“There is literally nothing in my original post that would give anyone reasonable grounds to reach those conclusions. You’ve drawn those conclusions from your own prejudice. You’ve just pulled those conclusions out of your arse. But then, I guess I must be a “Hack” because I had the audacity to disagree.”

No, you’re a hack because you deny even the obvious and believe the world to be flat courtesy of your sheer say-so. Pretty much the entirety of British academy strongly counseled against Brexit as bad for Britain and the British based on economic and public health reasons and bad for British science to boot. And in the latter field, the impact is already manifesting as British researchers are asked by their continental colleagues to recuse themselves from grant applications for EU funds in order to not jeopardize the grants by questions of eligibility. They are also already manifesting by a lower attractivity of British universities and research institutions for foreign talent – and foreign talent is critical for science to function in the modern world.

You’re hack because you believe you know better than the likes of Paul Nurse, Peter Higgs, Stephen Hawking, George Akerlof or Angus Deaton and can dismiss their positions outright.

But yeah, “there is literally nothing in your original post that would give anyone reasonable grounds to reach those conclusions”, aka. “The world is flat, the world is flat, the world is flat!”

One thing is sure, Mike – you project a lot from your own conduct onto others.

But at least you’re consistent in that. Just like you are projecting your own ignorance of basic political theory and western democratic practice into alleged shortcomings of the EU and your sloth and ignorance about its workings into an alleged lack of transparency (when all the treaties are freely available online for everyone to see).

But yeah, I am the one who makes things up and portrays them as fact. Thanks for proving my point of the post before. If what you say is true, then indeed you and your ilk consider academia a bunch of raving idiots – because they quite “coincidentally” happen to agree with me.

But yeah, “fact” is what you declare it to be, research is for people with too much time on their hands and too much fantasy.

Yes, I can find you more expert opinion in favour of Brexit if you would like.

You’re also taking the short term effects of the uncertainty this has caused as irrefutable evidence that we are heading for the economic End Times. The long term prospects may be considerably better – it really is too soon to tell. A political shift this large, no-one really knows with absolute certainty how this will work out long term – no, not even the Leave camp does…

And on the topic of the wonderful EUtopia, I’m going to leave this here…

Perhaps it’s my turn to presume what you’re thinking. “But the EUtopia is perfect! Big Brother loves us! The EUtopia is an economic paradise! We don’t need to worry about things such as rampant youth unemployment on the continent because um…science grants! The world is flat, the world is flat, the world is flat!”

As far as I am aware, MPs have to develop and vote on a bill to leave the EU, just as they had to do when we joined. This may take place before the end of the year. MPs have to vote based on what they believe is best for Britain, and we know that most MPs are in favour of remaining in the EU. The referendum result was advisory, not binding.

In addition, assuming they vote to start the process, the European Union Act 2011 requires another referendum, as the result of any negotiations would be a treaty change. It is possible that the negotiations would achieve a result that would be acceptable to people who originally voted to leave. It would be interesting to see if we could then stay in the EU on that basis, as nobody has ever triggered Article 50 before, and in theory there is no provision for changing our minds once that has been done.

Either way, the slim majority Brexit vote of those who voted in the 23 June referendum does not mean Brexit. What it does mean is uncertainty about the future, many problems now and in the near future, and often abusive debate as illustrated in the exchanges above. I am dismayed that it seems impossible for people to discuss these issues properly and/or do even a modicum of independent un-biased research instead of parroting propaganda.

Even if we do eventually leave, the outcome in the future would not be all bad. The much-maligned “experts” would find a way to make things work, even if it takes a few years to do so and we put back our economic progress by a decade or so. I know of many people who have already lost their jobs or their funding, so let’s hope that whatever happens they will not have to suffer for too long.

The most hilarious thing of all is those who claim that not implementing Brexit as a result of the vote would somehow be undemocratic, when in actual fact the complete reverse is true!

Democracy only exists where there is accountability – which is, strangely enough, why we elect politicians to make these massively important decisions.

If it turns out that the shock of the vote leads to a significant downturn in the economy, and, quite likely a recession, then if Parliament votes for it, at least any mp who does so can be booted out of office.

In what way could the people who voted for it be held to account, if we left solely based on the referendum? And that’s before you even get into all the legal issues, such as the impossibility of taking Scotland out of the EU against it’s will whilst it remains part of the UK, due to their devolved government.

It is the job of Parliament (you know, the same parliament that the Brexiters kept telling us should be sovereign!) to decide what is in the best interest of the country.

As has been said, if what the majority of the people wanted had to be brought in regardless of the consequences, up until very recently we would have had the death penalty.

When it becomes clear how dire the state of the economy is at the start of 2017, at the same time that the negotiations are starting, I’d bet a large sum of money that there would be a majority against leaving (and that’s even supposing there is still a majority in favour today, which is far from certain)

For a multitude of reasons, I’m convinced that Brexit will never happen, thank goodness.

I can’t wait for the day when the first fringe politician stands up and says stuff like this (i.e: It was advisory; Parliament has responsibility for all Britons; 37.44% the adult electorate voted leave and most of that was based on nonsense, so are we hell going to leave the EU). That will indicate progress towards the day when there is at-the-very-least a second referendum with an option to remain in the EU, which will obviously lead to healthy Remain vote. Then British History can resume instead of pretty-much ending.

In the mean time, the majority of the population will have to put up with this limbo. A limbo in which there are a vocal number of bitter and angry people (i.e. a minority of Leave voters) who refuse to either see or accept that they’ve cocked-up massively and shout their bitterness and anger on social media. Meanwhile the rest of the Leave voters will be quietly realising just what the facts are and gently merging with Remainers to form a popular group known as “decent people”.

P.S. You can tell who the bitter and angry people are because they will feel the need to respond to articles and posts like this with bitterness and anger, ironically openly identifying themselves as part of the bitter and angry minority by being bitter and angry about the fact that they are bitter and angry. Anyway, the football season’s starting soon so maybe they’ll go back to being bitter and angry about that.

Why did all the remain voters on here bother to vote at all. If you are now so convinced the the vote was worthless you would have been better off abstaining, then you could claim that anyone that didn’t vote leave was in favour of remaining so in effect you actually won the referendum.
As to the legality of the vote, the fact that the Tory government won the election because of the promise of a referendum, which was probably voted for by many in the remain camp gives it that legality.
Anyone on here who did not vote labour in the last election should remember they legalised the referendum . Just because you now don’t like the result you want it to go away.
This was what you voted for!!!!

Andy, it seems that Th vast majority of bitterness posted in this thread is from he Remain voters. Quite why in an article on demicracy, so many are agreeing with the article yet proposing overturning a democratic process is beyond me. The twisting of numbers does not fool anybody, even us racist, bigoted, stupid, uneducated majority who voted leave.

Diana, take a few minutes to think what would happen if the MPs chose not to follow the will of the people. I imagine civil unrest.”, and the resurgence of UKIP and far right parties. Do you think that is a good idea?

And the prize for proving both sides of the campaign were as bad as each other goes to Tyelko, as well as the original. Do quiet down. Read back the amount of hate and vitriol in your comments and ask yourself how yours is better than the brexit voters. You are giving a remainers a bad name.

I did vote remain but would like to dissociate myself from all this. I accept the EU wasn’t perfect and I don’t like the prospect of ever-rising population levels as a result of unchecked immigration either. There is a dark side to immigration and the half of the British population abandoned without investment or education by our politicians in favour of courting the already-educated rich middle classes of other countries have every right to point that out. As do women everywhere following the Cologne attacks and others throughout Germany at the New Year, which have been largely ignored and dismissed as women’s issues so commonly are. Economically it may even be the better path long term. It is difficult to say as the whole world is discovering what environmentalist have always said, that rampant unchecked capitalism is unsustainable.

The whole referendum has been a disaster in terms of demonstrating the weaknesses of our entirely morally bankrupt London-centred political structure, and dividing the country. It is a disgrace that leading politicians were conducting an exit campaign they had no plans for following through, and a disgrace that a referendum took place with no clear guidelines on how or when to action it. We all know it was offered just as a part of empty political games by an inept leader with nothing else of substance to offer. Given the problems of our crappy political system it was the pnly chance many people will ever be given to express their disenchantment, so no surprises when that happened (incidentally, I don’t know about the others but Manchester city is not now a working class area. Middle class as they come and as a residential area inaccessible to most locals).

We now need to reject the ‘divide and conquer’ techniques that he and his ilk fostered, unite and move forward together. Face the reality of a world with dwindling resources and halting economy and try to find the best solutions for all of our people and negotiate fairly with the rest of the world. No more sniping at each other or we are all doomed. I’ll make an exception for the politicians who’ve got us into this mess: our first task collectively is to address our political weaknesses.

“As do women everywhere following the Cologne attacks and others throughout Germany at the New Year, which have been largely ignored and dismissed as women’s issues so commonly are.”

This is a)bullshit and b)has nothing to do with the EU

Not only have the Cologne attacks not been ignored, in fact, a number of people have been arrested, nor have other “attacks”. That does not mean they are what they are represented as. What YOU ignore, because it is inconvenient for you, is that a massive amount of those other attacks you talk about have been on closer inspection been either blown way out of proportion or made-up entirely to begin with. Even with the Cologne attacks, the only reported case of actual rape involving intercourse turned up to be fabrication. But hey, when a woman reports having become pregnant after a rape in Cologne on New Year’s and later is found to have not even been there and having serially reported rapes in the past that did not hold up to scrutiny, it’s “ignoring and dismissing women’s issues”, not the sad case of a psychologically imbalanced woman.

And it’s an exercise in dishonesty to bemoan supposed ignoring and dismissing of “women’s issues” when the only “women’s issues” one is interested in is those involving foreigners and pickpockets using sexual assault as a diversion tactic become more relevant than a German couple systematically torturing several women to death.

Anyone claiming to be advocating women’s rights in this discussion is a bald-faced liar promoting nothing but women’s rights to be lying, libeling bigots.

It’s hilarious that you accuse others of vitriol and speak of “dark sides” while supporting criminal conduct and literally whitewashing crime.

“Again you are lying. You continue to make things up and suggest that you know things that you cannot possibly know. You are so full of t that the smell it that I can smell you from here.”

You continue to project your own dishonesty and fabrication onto others. It’s hilarious that you continue to insist I am lying yet never had anything more than your say-so to establish that, whereas I pointed out false claims of you repeatedly.

You’re a rather pitiful, little Rumpelstiltskin stomping your foot screaming “But I AM right!” without ever being able to produce the slightest bit of evidence to support your bullshit. You rave about legislative initiative, in abject ignorance of the fact that the executive is the chief initiatior of legislation in the UK, in Germany, and in most other countries. And your only reply on being called out on that is “You lie”. You declare that your assessments are right, thereby declaring the assessment of all the experts out there wrong, but your only reaction to being called out on your arrogance is calling other people arrogant and dishonest.

Sorry, but not everyone shares your opinion that wilful ignorance and sloth can be compensated by being that much more insistent on the dishonesty of everyone actually doing their homework.

The only one full of shit here is you, you live off the work of your betters but demand to be more respected than those putting in hard work you refuse to do.

People in working class areas voted for Brexit because of the flood of foreign nationals taking their jobs. I live in Wales and the working classes have had enough of seeing foreign nationals taking their jobs.

Your comment:
“The Brexit vote was mostly the result of an unholy alliance between a dumbed-down, middle-class, aging English electorate fed on a diet of Daily Mail and Express propaganda, Thatcherite Little Englanders and openly racist arseholes.”

That comment is one of ignorance as you forget most brexiteers were working class and Wales had a bigger vote for Brexit than England..

I am afraid I consider this post of yours to be one of an arsehole to be honest.

“People in working class areas voted for Brexit because of the flood of foreign nationals taking their jobs. I live in Wales and the working classes have had enough of seeing foreign nationals taking their jobs.”

Yeah, because there’s so many foreigners living in Wales.
Here’s news to you: If someone who doesn’t speak the language and has no contacts and no resources can take your job, then you probably suck. This has nothing to do with “the working classes” and “foreign nationals taking their jobs”, it has something to do with being duped hook, rope and sinker in having any prospect for jobs taken away from you.

“That comment is one of ignorance as you forget most brexiteers were working class and Wales had a bigger vote for Brexit than England..”

The ignorance is entirely on your part. Areas such as Cardiff voted Remain, as did several on the West Coast. It’s those areas with no jobs to be taken away which voted Leave, thereby ensuring that they chop themselves off any assistance the EU provides for such regions. The claim that Wales had a bigger vote for Brexit than England is ignorance at its best.

“I am afraid I consider this post of yours to be one of an arsehole to be honest.”

I am afraid you’re projecting from yourself to the author of the post.

You’re precisely the kind of ignorant twat the author meant, waffling about immigrants taking away jobs because you are too lazy to verify stuff before parroting the propaganda you have been fed. The percentage of foreign-born in Wales is minuscule, and those areas where it is higher, lo and behold, voted “Remain”.

You are the typical xenophobic dunce who blames everyone but himself for his misery. It’s a pity people like you will run out of scapegoats just as the going gets REALLY tough. You think you have seen joblessness in Wales? You have seen nothing yet. When the EU structural funds dry up. you will sell your children to get some breadcrumbs from Westminster and they will laugh in your face as they line their pockets, happy to have duped you into shooting into your own foot.

“Yeah, because there’s so many foreigners living in Wales.
Here’s news to you: If someone who doesn’t speak the language and has no contacts and no resources can take your job, then you probably suck. This has nothing to do with “the working classes” and “foreign nationals taking their jobs”, it has something to do with being duped hook, rope and sinker in having any prospect for jobs taken away from you.”

I live in Wales and see youngsters not having jobs because of firms usng agencies and carting in Eastern Europeans to fill vacancies rather than train local youth. Those youngster ALREADY have lost those jobs. So I guess for them Brexit means more chance of getting emplyment.

“You are the typical xenophobic dunce who blames everyone but himself for his misery. It’s a pity people like you will run out of scapegoats just as the going gets REALLY tough. You think you have seen joblessness in Wales? You have seen nothing yet. When the EU structural funds dry up. you will sell your children to get some breadcrumbs from Westminster and they will laugh in your face as they line their pockets, happy to have duped you into shooting into your own foot.”

I am not miserable thank you. I am very optimisitc about Brexit. I am sure that money that is used to fund the corrupt edifice know as the EU will be reallocated to regions around the UK. You just whine because the people of this country voted for Brexit. As for “seling Children” – is that some thing that happens in your area…..or are you just one of the buyers?

“You’re precisely the kind of ignorant twat the author meant, waffling about immigrants taking away jobs because you are too lazy to verify stuff before parroting the propaganda you have been fed. The percentage of foreign-born in Wales is minuscule, and those areas where it is higher, lo and behold, voted “Remain”.

Well if I am the kind of twat who makes a prick like you stand to attention then c’est la vie. I live in Wales and I can SEE my Town not changing for the better due to the EU free movement. “Miniscule” is not the way I would describe the number that have arrived in South Wales.

If you are so pro EU move to Europe. This country voted Brexit so deal with it and quit whining about the choice of the electorate.

“I live in Wales and see youngsters not having jobs because of firms usng agencies and carting in Eastern Europeans to fill vacancies rather than train local youth. Those youngster ALREADY have lost those jobs. So I guess for them Brexit means more chance of getting emplyment.”

Right, so according to you, the Torygraph of all papers sweeps immigrants in Wales under the carpet and lies about the true numbers.

“I am sure that money that is used to fund the corrupt edifice know as the EU will be reallocated to regions around the UK. ”

Thanks for confirming my point. You were the dumpster hole of the UK before the UK joined the EU, to believe that the Etonians give you more breadcrumbs than you got in the past demonstrates just how delusional you are. The EU was actually the only one who made sure that money was spent on regions such as Wales. And thanks for demonstrating that your “knowledge” of the EU is limited to parroting the usual ignorant tropes of the “corrupt” EU.

“Well if I am the kind of twat who makes a prick like you stand to attention then c’est la vie. I live in Wales and I can SEE my Town not changing for the better due to the EU free movement. “Miniscule” is not the way I would describe the number that have arrived in South Wales.”

Right, we already established that you know better than anyone else and the Torygraph is talking down the numbers.

“If you are so pro EU move to Europe. This country voted Brexit so deal with it and quit whining about the choice of the electorate.”

a)You have no idea where I live, dunce
b)The choice of the electorate was not to abolish freedom of speech, as much as fascist scum like you would love nothing more than to abolish any elections not giving outcomes you like.

“Right, so according to you, the Torygraph of all papers sweeps immigrants in Wales under the carpet and lies about the true numbers.”

I would wager the “official figures” on immigration and foreign nationals are innaccurate.

“Thanks for confirming my point. You were the dumpster hole of the UK before the UK joined the EU, to believe that the Etonians give you more breadcrumbs than you got in the past demonstrates just how delusional you are. The EU was actually the only one who made sure that money was spent on regions such as Wales. And thanks for demonstrating that your “knowledge” of the EU is limited to parroting the usual ignorant tropes of the “corrupt” EU.”

Well for a dumpster hole it is very beautiful. Historically we were given the dirty end of the stick but the Welsh Assembly will be vocal about funding, and money that no longer goes to the EU will be used for regional schemes.

“Right, we already established that you know better than anyone else and the Torygraph is talking down the numbers.”

I can see the difference in the workplaces of my town and communities. I can see young people struggling to get jobs as employers use foreign workers rather than train local youth. I never read the Torygraph you nincompoop. I just take note of the world in my vicinity unlike limp and liberal Guardian readers like you who live in LaLa land.

“a)You have no idea where I live, dunce
b)The choice of the electorate was not to abolish freedom of speech, as much as fascist scum like you would love nothing more than to abolish any elections not giving outcomes you like.”

a).. I have no idea where you reside – nor do I care. I just hope the underside of that rock you cling to is comfortable.
b) Fascist Scum. Laughable. I do not belong to (nor ever have or ever will) to any political party. As much as you would like to persuade people I march in a black shirt, burning foreign flags and shouting “Zieg Heil” that is not my cup of tea. I just engaged in a government run referendum and voted Brexit and sadly for those who voted Remain a narrow majority voted out. Democracy in action – and it would appear you are the one not liking the electoral outcome.

When you were jettisoned from your mother’s vagina into the world you must have stumbled into the “Forest of Stupidity” and head butted every tree. You have all the personality of Chlamydia.

Try rinsing the bitter taste of an election result you do not like out. Works wonders.

“Just a rejection of what the authorities were telling us about how good Europe was when most EU countries have had slow economic growth for years.”

You mean like pretty much the entire industrialized world? In fact, several EU nations had some of the best growth out there for first world nations, but hey, let’s not let that prevent us from blaming the EU for Global Warming, the eradication of the Dodo and while we’re at it, the Fall of Man.

Your opposition to the death penalty appears to be inconsistent with your support of the remain campaign. The standard argument against the death penalty uses the golden rule of ethics. The remain campaign was based on a utilitarian greater good argument. I did not see anyone campaign on the basis of ethics.

The standard economics argument for the greater good is based on utility maximisation without regard for distribution. Without regard for distribution means without caring who is harmed or by how much. This argument does not meet the ethical standards taken for granted in legal rulings.

Remain didn’t make an ethical case. You haven’t made an ethical case in this blog. Remain failed and it’s their fault. You also failed when you wrote this blog and it’s your fault. Insulting half the UK population is not the answer. You should recognise your failure and do something about it. Think about economic distribution and the golden rule of ethics and come up with something better. Create an ethical argument. Your arguments for Europe are like opposing the death penalty because of the economic cost. I don’t see being right for the wrong reason as anything to be proud of.

Given the choice between two unethical campaigns people chose what they thought was the lesser evil. People should have had a better option. If you want to start arguing from the perspective of ethics then the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights would be a good place to start.

” The remain campaign was based on a utilitarian greater good argument. I did not see anyone campaign on the basis of ethics.”

And of course, your personal impression is the unerring ledger of truth.

“Remain didn’t make an ethical case. You haven’t made an ethical case in this blog. Remain failed and it’s their fault. You also failed when you wrote this blog and it’s your fault. ”

Your fault is that you declare the truth unethical and dishonesty ethical.

“Think about economic distribution and the golden rule of ethics and come up with something better. Create an ethical argument. Your arguments for Europe are like opposing the death penalty because of the economic cost. I don’t see being right for the wrong reason as anything to be proud of.”

And pretending to care for ethics and distribution while merely pretending to do so is nothing to be proud of, either. You’re the equivalent of the 350 million pound bus which claimed fake desire to support the NHS with a fake sum of money.

Who was it who invested in structurally poor regions in the UK? Certainly not Westminster. They neglected those regions for half a century and more. It was the EU which ensured that people in those areas had decent roads. It was the EU which funded libraries, community centers and supported expanding broadband connections. Now the people from those regions come crawling to London to beg for replacement of those funds.

“Given the choice between two unethical campaigns people chose what they thought was the lesser evil. People should have had a better option. If you want to start arguing from the perspective of ethics then the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights would be a good place to start.”

That’s cute, given that the Leave campaign is fundamentally opposed to any and all external arbitration of human rights.

There is nothing ethical about the standpoint that a majority decision abolishes freedom of speech. You are a wee bit like Erdogan for whom democracy is a train from which to hop off as soon as you have reached your destination. Your belief that people should hand in their convictions and not speak their opinion anymore once you got what you wanted is the antithesis of democracy, and you merely underscore that the manhunts triggered by the Brexit votes, the murder of Jo Cox preceding it and the propagandistic lies of the Leave campaign are, contrary to all denials, born of the same spirit. You take your cues straight from the playbook your fathers and grandfathers defended the country against. But then, you already declared them senile, demented idiots already with your vote, given that Britain’s finest were solidly on the side of “Remain”. But people like you take everything for granted, you know no respect, no duty, no obligation, All you know is narcisstic entitlement.

Funny you say that, it’s a bit strange to have that viewpoint considering a majority of the Brexit vote was the elderly. I think you might have it around the wrong way. I think the elderly, who had waaaay more to do with our finest back in the day, know how the EU is bad for the UK 🙂

Thanks for making the point better than anyone of the Leave side could have made it: You live in a fantasy land of your own making which has zero to do with the real world but is rather a cartoonistic theme park that is completely and utterly ludicrous to anyone with the diligence or the knowledge to get their facts straight.

“There is nothing ethical about the standpoint that a majority decision abolishes freedom of speech.”

Freedom of speech is one thing but whining like a child is another.

“the murder of Jo Cox preceding it and the propagandistic lies of the Leave campaign ”

The murder of Jo Cox had nothing to do with Brexit. Nutters do what nutters do – bit like your whining in this thread.

As for lies of the leave campaign : All that scaremongering about economic implosion, World War III, and general scaremongering coming out of the remain camp was pervcieved by the public for what it was – sheer bull manure.

You really have the far sightedness of an ostrich with its head rammed up it’s own anus.

Ya know what? I couldn’t give a monkeys what your opinion is of Brexit voters. We got used to the vitriol months ago. It’s why you were so shocked at the result. Leave voters stopped saying they were voting that way because it wasn’t worth the backlash. Wakey wakey people, 52% voted leave. It happened.
And the whole Jo Cox thing, wow. Well, here’s one for you. Did you know a 79 yr old woman was raped by a refugee whilst she was visiting her sisters grave, the day Fireman sam stepped on the Koran?
No I didn’t either. That’s because we & the media were all too busy worrying about a cartoon. And you wonder why people want us to get back some control?
I can post some links too, have a watch of this video http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/02/islamic-victims-rights-campaigner-banned-from-facebook-for-islamophobia-urges-people-to-make-a-video-saying-they-cant-arrest-us-all/

Just to settle it once and for all. If you voted remain, you knew the rules, the majority would win. You voted so you agreed to abide by the outcome, otherwise what was the point of you voting at all. Your only problem is you did not win.
If you did not vote at all then you cannot complain now, you had your chance.
If you voted leave then congratulations for have the sense not to be taken in by the doom and gloom spread by the Highly paid experts that where close the the leave campaign

As an Irish person I’m afraid that Brexit will undermine the fragile peace in Ireland. No-one wants a hard border in Ireland but it’s difficult to see how it could be avoided. It will stir up resentment and perhaps a revival of the violence we thought was behind us. However I can understand English concerns about immigration. England is over-populated and Ireland is not. Anyway “the tabloids have spoken.”

Comments I previously read on FB suggested that 52% of the turnout were stupid, small-minded, bigoted, dozy, nostalgic foreigner-fearing fuckwits.

Being abusive against those of us that voted to leave is not the answer. We must all roll our sleeves up and get on with it.

It was a 72% turnout – higher than for all general elections this century – and around 8 percentage points more than in the 1975 referendum. Britain was Great then, it will still be Great after we have left.

Those that felt strongly about it turned out to vote, and most of them were Brexiteers. Instead of hurling abuse at those that voted to leave, shouldn’t the disgruntled minority be criticising those Remainers that couldn’t be bothered to vote?