I can't tell you the degree of separation between the expectation of two Giants pitchers and their results. For both Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito, the exact opposite occurred from almost the first day of the regular season to completely smash all of our aforementioned predictions.

Barry Zito has been on a long contract with the Giants for a LOT of money. For the past two years (2010 and 2011 respectively) Barry had been continuing to show what he had the years before: nothing.

Tim Lincecum, on the other hand, was our ace. The one guy in our roster where he would trot out to the mound and you had a good feeling the Giants were gonna win.

Then 2012 started. First game out of the box and Lincecum blows the game with a bad outing followed by Zito showing up in Colorado and pitching a freaking shut out. A SHUT OUT!

Long story short (TOO LATE) Zito has completely erased his long begotten ire from this Giants fan with his monumental season this year. Now I'm gonna go read this story and grin to myself.

Ender's:I can't tell you the degree of separation between the expectation of two Giants pitchers and their results. For both Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito, the exact opposite occurred from almost the first day of the regular season to completely smash all of our aforementioned predictions.

Barry Zito has been on a long contract with the Giants for a LOT of money. For the past two years (2010 and 2011 respectively) Barry had been continuing to show what he had the years before: nothing.

Tim Lincecum, on the other hand, was our ace. The one guy in our roster where he would trot out to the mound and you had a good feeling the Giants were gonna win.

Then 2012 started. First game out of the box and Lincecum blows the game with a bad outing followed by Zito showing up in Colorado and pitching a freaking shut out. A SHUT OUT!

Long story short (TOO LATE) Zito has completely erased his long begotten ire from this Giants fan with his monumental season this year. Now I'm gonna go read this story and grin to myself.

He did. He's been such a salary weight around San Francisco's neck. Luckily he now seems to have shown there is SOME worth to his contract.

TimonC346:Ender's: I can't tell you the degree of separation between the expectation of two Giants pitchers and their results. For both Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito, the exact opposite occurred from almost the first day of the regular season to completely smash all of our aforementioned predictions.

Barry Zito has been on a long contract with the Giants for a LOT of money. For the past two years (2010 and 2011 respectively) Barry had been continuing to show what he had the years before: nothing.

Tim Lincecum, on the other hand, was our ace. The one guy in our roster where he would trot out to the mound and you had a good feeling the Giants were gonna win.

Then 2012 started. First game out of the box and Lincecum blows the game with a bad outing followed by Zito showing up in Colorado and pitching a freaking shut out. A SHUT OUT!

Long story short (TOO LATE) Zito has completely erased his long begotten ire from this Giants fan with his monumental season this year. Now I'm gonna go read this story and grin to myself.

He did. He's been such a salary weight around San Francisco's neck. Luckily he now seems to have shown there is SOME worth to his contract.

I don't mean to rain on this parade too much, but Zito really wasn't great this year, in the regular season. A 4.15 ERA in the caverns of that park isn't too impressive. Zito's had a couple years about as good as this one for the Giants already.

The All-Powerful Atheismo:This regular season was Zito's worst yet. He made 32 starts, pitched 184 innings, and only managed to accumulate 0.8 WAR.

And went 15-8. Hard to see how it was his worst season yet.

Well, offense was down across the board, so his 4.15 ERA was less impressive than the same ERA two years ago. Part of the WAR might be that his home stadium was even more pitcher friendly than usual, and maybe there's a component of luck in there.

This can't really be his worst season compared to throwing 53.2 terrible innings last year. Or 180 innings with a WHIP of 1.600 in 2008.

Ender's:I can't tell you the degree of separation between the expectation of two Giants pitchers and their results. For both Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito, the exact opposite occurred from almost the first day of the regular season to completely smash all of our aforementioned predictions.

Barry Zito has been on a long contract with the Giants for a LOT of money. For the past two years (2010 and 2011 respectively) Barry had been continuing to show what he had the years before: nothing.

Tim Lincecum, on the other hand, was our ace. The one guy in our roster where he would trot out to the mound and you had a good feeling the Giants were gonna win.

Then 2012 started. First game out of the box and Lincecum blows the game with a bad outing followed by Zito showing up in Colorado and pitching a freaking shut out. A SHUT OUT!

Long story short (TOO LATE) Zito has completely erased his long begotten ire from this Giants fan with his monumental season this year. Now I'm gonna go read this story and grin to myself.

Zito absolutely redeemed himself this year. This is the Zito we remember from his days in Oakland. I am so happy to see him pitching the way he used to.

Dumb-Ass-Monkey:Ender's: I can't tell you the degree of separation between the expectation of two Giants pitchers and their results. For both Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito, the exact opposite occurred from almost the first day of the regular season to completely smash all of our aforementioned predictions.

Barry Zito has been on a long contract with the Giants for a LOT of money. For the past two years (2010 and 2011 respectively) Barry had been continuing to show what he had the years before: nothing.

Tim Lincecum, on the other hand, was our ace. The one guy in our roster where he would trot out to the mound and you had a good feeling the Giants were gonna win.

Then 2012 started. First game out of the box and Lincecum blows the game with a bad outing followed by Zito showing up in Colorado and pitching a freaking shut out. A SHUT OUT!

Long story short (TOO LATE) Zito has completely erased his long begotten ire from this Giants fan with his monumental season this year. Now I'm gonna go read this story and grin to myself.

Zito absolutely redeemed himself this year. This is the Zito we remember from his days in Oakland. I am so happy to see him pitching the way he used to.

...really?

He lasted 2.2 innings his Boobiesseason start. Then had a great game in a key situation (down 3-1 to STL). Then he went 5.2 and gave up a run. Not bad, but not exactly amazing.

That's a very good ERA of 1.69 and a meh WHIP of 1.375, averaging 5.1 IP per start. Not exactly lights out. And he was pretty meh during the regular season, no better than his past best Giants years.

No matter how his year went--that postseason finish will be remembered--that's also why this is a story. If he was lights out all year, and also lights out in the postseason, it's still a story but a less remarkable one.

I mean--look at Cabrera and Prince Fielder. That was a REALLY terrible postseason for those guys offensively. While both are interesting--them doing poorly is a little more remarkable than them even doing passably. I mean, jeez, especially in Cabrera's case--I think his accolades scared the hell out of the SF fans.

Dumb-Ass-Monkey:Ender's: I can't tell you the degree of separation between the expectation of two Giants pitchers and their results. For both Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito, the exact opposite occurred from almost the first day of the regular season to completely smash all of our aforementioned predictions.

Barry Zito has been on a long contract with the Giants for a LOT of money. For the past two years (2010 and 2011 respectively) Barry had been continuing to show what he had the years before: nothing.

Tim Lincecum, on the other hand, was our ace. The one guy in our roster where he would trot out to the mound and you had a good feeling the Giants were gonna win.

Then 2012 started. First game out of the box and Lincecum blows the game with a bad outing followed by Zito showing up in Colorado and pitching a freaking shut out. A SHUT OUT!

Long story short (TOO LATE) Zito has completely erased his long begotten ire from this Giants fan with his monumental season this year. Now I'm gonna go read this story and grin to myself.

Zito absolutely redeemed himself this year. This is the Zito we remember from his days in Oakland. I am so happy to see him pitching the way he used to.

//I see that more as the one major managerial mistake from Roenicke that year though, as Marcum was tanking in Sept and had already exceeded his highest single season innings total in August. He should have been a bullpen guy for the postseason and Narveson should have gotten those starts.

Rex_Banner:The All-Powerful Atheismo: Rex_Banner: The All-Powerful Atheismo: This regular season was Zito's worst yet. He made 32 starts, pitched 184 innings, and only managed to accumulate 0.8 WAR.

And went 15-8. Hard to see how it was his worst season yet.

He had his best run support since coming to SF

15-8 sounds like a great season to me regardless of how much run support he got.

Fact is if he gave up fewer runs than the other team, he did well.

He pitched better in 2009 and 2010 but the team didn't score as many runs for him. The problem with a pitchers's win/loss is that it is largely dependent on how well the offense performs

Well that's just silly. EVERYONE KNOWS that Zito used Voodoo to make the offense score 4.69 runs/game when he started. Madison Bumgarner, on the other hand, decided to do things without magic, and so they only scored 4.38.

And don't even get me started on what Lincecum did wrong, but let's just point out it ended with them scoring 3.94.

The All-Powerful Atheismo:This regular season was Zito's worst yet. He made 32 starts, pitched 184 innings, and only managed to accumulate 0.8 WAR.

And went 15-8. Hard to see how it was his worst season yet.

I was under the impression that w-l is a horrible stat for pitchers, since they have nothing to do with their team's score and therefore little control whether the game is a win or loss. I'm sure I learned this in a Fark Cy Young thread.

/I understand that the better a pitcher plays, the better their odds of winning are./I also know a pitcher can have a complete game 1-hitter and still lose.

I don't mean to rain on this parade too much, but Zito really wasn't great this year, in the regular season. A 4.15 ERA in the caverns of that park isn't too impressive. Zito's had a couple years about as good as this one for the Giants already.

bruegel:Dumb-Ass-Monkey: Ender's: I can't tell you the degree of separation between the expectation of two Giants pitchers and their results. For both Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito, the exact opposite occurred from almost the first day of the regular season to completely smash all of our aforementioned predictions.

Barry Zito has been on a long contract with the Giants for a LOT of money. For the past two years (2010 and 2011 respectively) Barry had been continuing to show what he had the years before: nothing.

Tim Lincecum, on the other hand, was our ace. The one guy in our roster where he would trot out to the mound and you had a good feeling the Giants were gonna win.

Then 2012 started. First game out of the box and Lincecum blows the game with a bad outing followed by Zito showing up in Colorado and pitching a freaking shut out. A SHUT OUT!

Long story short (TOO LATE) Zito has completely erased his long begotten ire from this Giants fan with his monumental season this year. Now I'm gonna go read this story and grin to myself.

Zito absolutely redeemed himself this year. This is the Zito we remember from his days in Oakland. I am so happy to see him pitching the way he used to.

In other words, he found another way to beat the drug tests.

Unless you're talking about pot tests, I doubt Zito cares one way or another about drug tests, since steroids don't cause you to lose your curveball

Killer Cars:The All-Powerful Atheismo: Fact is if he gave up fewer runs than the other team, he did well.

Congrats, you just gave Bill James an aneurysm. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Lol. I like Bill, but a pitcher doesn't pitch a game in a vacuum. The score and the lead a pitcher has affects many things, such as how aggressively a pitcher is towards a player, whether he walks a guy in a particular situation or not, etc.

jackiepaper:DeWayne Mann: CraicBaby: I'm not sure what the hell happened to Timmy, but I'm glad Bochy switched him to relief during the playoffs. He did much better in that role than he did as a starter.

Lincecum is a really interesting case, and I can't wait to see what happens with him next year. Though there's apparently a chance he gets traded, which will confuse matters even more.

He's not getting traded, at least not in the offseason. The only way he gets shipped is if the Giants are out of contention around the end of next July, which isnt likely.

The All-Powerful Atheismo:Killer Cars: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Fact is if he gave up fewer runs than the other team, he did well.

Congrats, you just gave Bill James an aneurysm. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Lol. I like Bill, but a pitcher doesn't pitch a game in a vacuum. The score and the lead a pitcher has affects many things, such as how aggressively a pitcher is towards a player, whether he walks a guy in a particular situation or not, etc.

DeWayne Mann:The All-Powerful Atheismo: Killer Cars: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Fact is if he gave up fewer runs than the other team, he did well.

Congrats, you just gave Bill James an aneurysm. I hope you're proud of yourself.

Lol. I like Bill, but a pitcher doesn't pitch a game in a vacuum. The score and the lead a pitcher has affects many things, such as how aggressively a pitcher is towards a player, whether he walks a guy in a particular situation or not, etc.

[Citation needed]

Here, I'll get you started:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15750

Really? You're going to argue my assertion that the size of a team's lead affects how a team approaches certain batters in some situations?

Well that's pretty dumb of you. Seriously. I'm not making an outrageous claim, or stating that it's always true of every pitcher or anything specific. it's a really simple fact that I'm stating.

If a pitcher EVER decided to walk a guy because he was a home run threat when they only have a 1-run lead and first base is open, then I am simply right.

The All-Powerful Atheismo:Well that's pretty dumb of you. Seriously. I'm not making an outrageous claim, or stating that it's always true of every pitcher or anything specific. it's a really simple fact that I'm stating.

If a pitcher EVER decided to walk a guy because he was a home run threat when they only have a 1-run lead and first base is open, then I am simply right.

Sorry, I was unclear.

The citation I wanted was what that had to do with Zito at all. Does Zito with a 2 run lead pitch differently and/or better than Vogelsong with a 2 run lead? Seems like that'd be far more of a managerial issue. And it STILL ignores that that lead sort of depends on the offense quite a bit.

Of course, that'd be a bit more obvious if you actually read the article I posted. Which is why I posted it.