I never have to consider factors such as elevation above sea level when I make pizza or share my results and thoughts, seeing how I'm only several hundred feet above sea level. But since Tim has been so active in this thread, and since I'm guessing he's at least a mile above sea level, elevation has been on my mind lately. One thing about Tim's recent Tommy's style attempts that stood out to me is that his folded skins grew quite a bit during his overnight refrigeration. Since I wouldn't expect that kind of result if I did it the same way, one of my first thoughts was that this might have resulted from his elevation above sea level. But I also had to consider that maybe it was because he rolled the dough right after mixing (rather than after a bulk ferment, as I've been doing). Regardless, his folded skins fermented a lot more than I would expect.

Reading through a recent-but-buried thread in the Chitchat section several minutes ago, which asks where people live, Chau's response got me thinking:

Albuquerque, New Mexico. We are about 5,000 ft above sea level. The high altitude gives me extra lift in crust rise, but the dry climate does horrible things to big bags of flour, especially since I can't use it up quick enough.

Having not read anything else about high-elevation baking, and having never had a reason to think about it before, all of this information suggests to me that high elevation equates to faster fermentation (perhaps due to lower pressure?). Anyway, this stuff is on my mind now, and I'm interested in how high elevation affects pizzamaking, compared to making pizza at lower elevations (like in Ohio).

So Tim, would you mind sharing a little about how you think high elevation affects your pizzamaking? (Also, I want you to know that thanks to you I've had John Denver stuck in my head for a while, but with slightly altered lyrics. Punk.)

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I never have to consider factors such as elevation above sea level when I make pizza or share my results and thoughts, seeing how I'm only several hundred feet above sea level. But since Tim has been so active in this thread, and since I'm guessing he's at least a mile above sea level, elevation has been on my mind lately. One thing about Tim's recent Tommy's style attempts that stood out to me is that his folded skins grew quite a bit during his overnight refrigeration. Since I wouldn't expect that kind of result if I did it the same way, one of my first thoughts was that this might have resulted from his elevation above sea level. But I also had to consider that maybe it was because he rolled the dough right after mixing (rather than after a bulk ferment, as I've been doing). Regardless, his folded skins fermented a lot more than I would expect.

Reading through a recent-but-buried thread in the Chitchat section several minutes ago, which asks where people live, Chau's response got me thinking:

Having not read anything else about high-elevation baking, and having never had a reason to think about it before, all of this information suggests to me that high elevation equates to faster fermentation (perhaps due to lower pressure?). Anyway, this stuff is on my mind now, and I'm interested in how high elevation affects pizzamaking, compared to making pizza at lower elevations (like in Ohio).

So Tim, would you mind sharing a little about how you think high elevation affects your pizzamaking? (Also, I want you to know that thanks to you I've had John Denver stuck in my head for a while, but with slightly altered lyrics. Punk.)

Ryan,

Now you've really opened a can of worms. Pizza making at high altitudes does present some additional challenges but is no excuse for bad pizza. I used to frequent a bakery located at 7200 feet above sea level and they made wonderful bread and pastries for decades. The key is to, like all bakers must, make adjustments as needed to produce the best end results.

I agree with the quotation above from Chau and might add a little on the topic. At sea level, the atmosphere presses on a square inch of surface with a weight of 14.7 pounds but at 5,000 feet, there is only 12.3 pounds of pressure. This decreased pressure (aka "thin air") is responsible for the differences seen in baking and food preparation.

In high altitude baking, dough rises more rapidly and so the fermentation times are effectively shortened. However, the development of flavor still depends on the length of the rising period so I still try to maintain that time period, usually by punching down the dough more often than you would at sea level and/or by using less yeast. I don't think you would get the kind of rise that I did in my folded dough regardless of your technique, simply because the effect is mainly a result of my altitude. Another example of this effect occurred when I decided to use TomN's excellent recipe to make some beer pizzas: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17415.msg245184#msg245184 The recipe calls for the use of about 4.5 grams of IDY to make 3 dough balls, each about 349 grams. I knew that in my kitchen this would be way too much yeast, but I decided to follow the recipe verbatim and see what would happen. (pic 1) That little 349 gram dough ball blew the (loosely placed) top off the container during its room temperature warm-up! I made the pizza anyway and it actually came out all right. (pics 2-4)

The other adjustment that often needs to be made is a reduction in the amount of flour needed to create a dough of the proper consistency. Flour at high altitudes tends to be drier and is thus able to absorb more liquid, therefore less flour is needed. If my flour is already "in the bowl" I will instead add more water. In the Tommy's clone dough I tried, you (correctly) pointed out that I probably added too much water, but trust me, if I wouldn't have added any additional water, I would have ended up with a huge pile of flour at the bottom of the bowl that would never have incorporated. That first picture I posted in my mixing bowl was after I had already added some extra water. Perhaps a better way to add moisture to these low hydration doughs without adding too much would be the "spray bottle" technique as mentioned by Peter here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53471.html#msg53471 and used successfully by nick57 in his thin pizzas: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18731.msg187171.html#msg187171

Unfortunately, there's no uniform or cookbook method to make these adjustments because changes in humidity can also affect the dryness of the flour. My flour is often very powdery and dry. When I buy flour, the first thing I do is move it to an airtight container like this: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/lock-top-container-flour But the question of course, is "How long has the flour been sitting on a store shelf before I bought it?" In my area, the relative humidity during the summer months is below 32%, 3 out of every 4 days. To give an example of how dry this is I can take a shower at 11:30 pm and when I wake up in the morning, the towel that I used to dry off is bone dry (provided I hang it up). In the winter, however, the humidity can average around 75% so it definitely fluctuates by season.

Finally, at higher altitudes water boils at a lower temperature (about 200F to 202F). This means that I need to cook things like pasta and rice longer than recipes state. I'm sure this can also effect bake times and the level of moisture in my pizza crusts, but as usual, trial and error brings improved results.

In the Tommy's clone dough I tried, you (correctly) pointed out that I probably added too much water, but trust me, if I wouldn't have added any additional water, I would have ended up with a huge pile of flour at the bottom of the bowl that would never have incorporated.

I think the pile of flour may also have something to do with using a mixer with a j-hook. On the rare occasion that I've used KitchenAid mixers with j-hooks, I've had a very hard time getting stiffer doughs to come together; dough that I know would come together if I made it in my own mixer, which has a spiral hook. Instead of fully mixing the dough, the j-hook only mixes the dough to a certain extent, then ends up pushing the piece of mixed dough around in circles atop a considerable amount of flour, never incorporating the remaining flour into the dough.

Rather than pushing the dough around in circles, my spiral dough hook pushes the dough downward into the unincorporated flour, effectively picking up all the flour. If I'm not careful, though, I could easily kill the mixer by making such stiff dough, as I did on June 22, 2011. Thankfully, I've since figured out some tricks to make this stiff dough easier on my refurbished mixer. (This is funny: My post immediately above the linked post expresses a dough formula that is very similar to my recent breakthrough dough, yet for some reason I decided to take my dough way off in the wrong direction.)

Even though I don't like the tilting-head KitchenAid mixers with j-hooks, I wish I had one, just to help me figure out tricks to better get the job done with that kind of mixer, so I could pass on my tricks to others. Especially considering I imagine that mixer model (Artisan?) is by far the most common or popular mixer model in home kitchens.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I received an email from someone about a week ago who had followed the directions in my long post (Reply #325 or something). He included three pics of one of the pizzas he made by following my instructions. I don't know if he is a member here, but I just felt it was only right to share his pics (because I think they look more like Tommy's than my pizzas).

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Ryan, just finished off a 9" test pie of this recipe for our 14" dinner pie. Baked at 530 on a stone. Must say I am very impressed. I had to really push the dough in a hot proofer to get it usable by tonight as I just started the dough upon waking. I have learned to lighten up on the toppings on these cracker crusts, including the sauce. If it turns out well tonight I'll take some pictures. It layered, it crunched it was nice, with a bit of chew, on the inside. It was easy to work with AP flour.

Interesting that you say that because the last several days I've been messing around with fazzari's "every trick" dough and tips, which is not a whole lot different than my latest Tommy's formula and workflow (but is very different in a few ways). My first two batches of this dough were 40% hydration + 4% oil (with All Trumps unbromated flour). Needless to say, it took a lot of work to roll this dough.

With the batch I made yesterday, I increased the hydration by 8% (to 48%) and left the oil at 4%. I also used Superlative flour. With the 8% hydration increase, I expected this dough to be easy to roll. And it was, compared to the 40% dough. But it still took a lot of work to roll it; more work than I think it requires to roll my Tommy's dough with 43% hydration and 5% shortening (and AP flour). So I'm kinda curious to try it again with AP flour, and I'm also curious to find out how the pizzas from the Superlative dough turn out. I expect to use it by tomorrow (but might use it tonight, or tonight and tomorrow).

By the way, are you working on that manual sheeter? Or at least thinking about it? I think you can do it, and I want you to so badly. Especially after rolling these 4- to 8-layer 40% hydration skins the last few days.

One thing I've been meaning to mention about the pictures a few posts back is that the guy who made those pizzas didn't use the flour I suggest in my most recent best-yet post. Rather, he used Giustos. He didn't elaborate, so I don't know what type of Giustos flour he used. All I know is that he used Giustos. Also, I know nothing about Giustos flour. From what I can see in his pics, it looks like this flour makes a better Tommy's clone than the flours I've used.

I've been wanting to try to find an AP-level foodservice-quality flour to try, but I don't know where to start. I don't want to go out and buy 25 or 50 lbs of flour just to find out that it's not acceptable. And I certainly don't want to do that over and over. I guess it might be about time to do a little more dumpster diving.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

My AP flour was nothing spectacular, just house brand Hotel and Restaurant from GFS. I bought a 25 lb bag last time.

The small test pie needed a lot of bubble popping, so I lightly docked the dinner pizza. Full docking was too much in my opinion. Next time, sort of like a 1/2 dock. Might take every other blade off the spike docker. Also baked about 7 and 1/2 minutes on a 530 F oven that was running since lunchtime. It baked quicker.

I am happy with the crust. Nice crunch. I used your latest recipe from here in bakers percentages and grams http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg279392#msg279392 I did add 1tsp of diastic malt. I also work my dough right out of the high temperature proofer. (oven with the light on given a head start with the elements for 2 minutes or so) I am a big guy, so maybe I can really press on the rolling pin.

I have thought about the sheeter, and looked at what materials are needed for a NSF certified one. Haven't gotten much farther than that.

Compliments to you Ryan, nice recipe and workflow. Even pushing it into the oven in 12 hours was pretty good.

I have tried quite a few flours and what I noticed with this style is if you use an AFP or something that isn't a high gluten flour, the crust is more tender and light. Sometimes if the hydration is too high it won't be very crispy. With a low hydration I would describe the crust as crispy with these flours. Also, the fat/oil content seems to make a larger difference here.

When I use high gluten type flours, the crust tends to have more of a crunch to it. (More like a corn chip) It also seems to stay crunchy longer in a pan and will hold it's weight when holding a solo slice.

Personally I prefer the harder "Snappy" crust so that's partly why I use the higher gluten forming flours.

I think both of you (Dan and Dave) should look into fazzari's "every trick" thread if you haven't already. I've been having a lot of fun with it the last week. It's a lot like the pizza I've been trying to create throughout this thread, yet it's nothing like this. I'm really liking his hot water/warm rise technique and his nearly-immediate sheeting routine, although I think I'm more fond of my method of rolling two thin square sheets and folding them into fourths, because the dough is always within easy reach this way.

Something I've been wanting to try is dividing the dough into small dough balls for each layer right after the short bulk-ferment. I'd figure out the total amount of dough I need for a skin (including scrap dough) and divide it by the number of layers I want. For example, if I wanted to make a 6-layer, 14" pizza, I'd start out with 18.92 oz (536 g) of dough and scale six 3.15 oz dough balls. I'd roll each of the six dough balls very thin, then stack them, press them together with my fists, and roll. Trim to 14-15 oz. Refrigerate for at least a day. Top and bake (directly on stone) immediately after removing from fridge.

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

I think both of you (Dan and Dave) should look into fazzari's "every trick" thread if you haven't already. I've been having a lot of fun with it the last week. It's a lot like the pizza I've been trying to create throughout this thread, yet it's nothing like this. I'm really liking his hot water/warm rise technique and his nearly-immediate sheeting routine, although I think I'm more fond of my method of rolling two thin square sheets and folding them into fourths, because the dough is always within easy reach this way.

Something I've been wanting to try is dividing the dough into small dough balls for each layer right after the short bulk-ferment. I'd figure out the total amount of dough I need for a skin (including scrap dough) and divide it by the number of layers I want. For example, if I wanted to make a 6-layer, 14" pizza, I'd start out with 18.92 oz (536 g) of dough and scale six 3.15 oz dough balls. I'd roll each of the six dough balls very thin, then stack them, press them together with my fists, and roll. Trim to 14-15 oz. Refrigerate for at least a day. Top and bake (directly on stone) immediately after removing from fridge.

Ryan I agree on rolling out thin skins and putting them together. I tried Fazzari techniques which worked great but added in layering. I only used 2 layers but am going to try as you stated.The 2 layers did not show enough lamination. It was slight but still not what I'm hoping to achieve. Guess it's time to make some dough.

I think both of you (Dan and Dave) should look into fazzari's "every trick" thread if you haven't already. I've been having a lot of fun with it the last week. It's a lot like the pizza I've been trying to create throughout this thread, yet it's nothing like this. I'm really liking his hot water/warm rise technique and his nearly-immediate sheeting routine, although I think I'm more fond of my method of rolling two thin square sheets and folding them into fourths, because the dough is always within easy reach this way.

I own a commercial sheeter and it's really easy to roll my skins out. A lot of this is geared towards someone that doesn't own a sheeter. I just pound my dough down, give it 3-4 passes, fold, 3-4 passes then die cut the skin. Easy as that.

Something I've been wanting to try is dividing the dough into small dough balls for each layer right after the short bulk-ferment. I'd figure out the total amount of dough I need for a skin (including scrap dough) and divide it by the number of layers I want. For example, if I wanted to make a 6-layer, 14" pizza, I'd start out with 18.92 oz (536 g) of dough and scale six 3.15 oz dough balls. I'd roll each of the six dough balls very thin, then stack them, press them together with my fists, and roll. Trim to 14-15 oz. Refrigerate for at least a day. Top and bake (directly on stone) immediately after removing from fridge.

Lydia put forward a "cheater" method a while back using Harina Preparada mix and superimposing layers. IMO superimposing several more developed layers is probably the least time consuming way to make a laminated crust. Even though it isn't a true lamination separation, it's tolerable considering how little time it takes.

For the video on Lydia's Round Table cheater dough recipe, see the link below to the thread about her recipe. Round Table comes pretty close to a cracker style, but it is a little more hydrated based on this recipe (~50%). Her Viddler video link should still work for now, but she is planning on moving it.

I used to live in Whitehall 5 minutes drive with no traffic ( in Columbus? yeah right!) from Tommy's on Hamilton. I used to eat it at least monthly but sometimes weekly or more often than that.

I moved to rural AZ 18 months ago and have not had a good pizza since. Of all the issues in Columbus especially the east side that I DO NOT MISS, I do miss Tommy's and access to a variety of pizza and other food.

Thank you very much for doing this and posting it up. I cannot express how much this means to me if I can even come close to Tommy's.

Seriously, If I can even get somewhere in the ballpark of tasting like home I will be very happy.

I know this is an old post but I wanted to thank Ryan for posting his tommy's clone. We have tried many crusts including DKM's thin crust and Ryan's Shakey's clone. With DKM's we got no separation and the outer crust edges were to hard to chew and the Shakey's clone had some separation in the middle but the outer crust edges were also to hard to chew. I don't know what went wrong on those but we tried this Tommy's clone and even though we got no separation in the crust under the toppings the outer crust did have good separation. I don't understand that but the whole crust was delicious and the bottom was crisp and even without the separation it had no tough to chew portions or gummy chewy portions.

I hope Ryan still reads these posts because he has given me hope that I will be able to make a great pizza!

This past Tuesday i decided to break out this recipe and give it a try, since it has probably been at about year since I last used it. I made some adjustments from A.R.'s recipe for the dough.1. I used KAAP instead of Pillsbury AP because that is what I had on had.2. To help compensate for the higher gluten content in the KAAP, I changed the hydration to 44% from 43%3. I scaled the recipe to make one 15" pizza instead of 2, and to allow for less scrap.

I made a half-cheese/half-mushroom pizza. Pics of the laminated dough and end results are below. I baked it on my 2stone device on my gas grill. I got some nice bubbling, which I poked using a grill fork to bring them back down.I was very pleased with the results. I need to use this recipe more often.