Welcome

Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and
others concerned about HIV/AIDS. Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the
conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning: Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive
and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a
username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own
physician.

All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators
of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please
provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are
true and correct to their knowledge.

Author
Topic: "Mother" Fuckers (Read 7961 times)

Apologies to any who might be offended by the title, but I am rather angry and upset at the moment. Here's the backstory:

So I do my good son bit and run up the hill to spend some Mother's Day time with the folks. In my family, this of course includes the dutiful attendance at church with Mom. All goes well until the end, when someone in the congregation stand up to testify about his dismay with the world today- how we sinful folk have gotten away from the truths of the "mother church" and have led this country astray. No prayer in schools and all that crap. And of course, the tirade includes the lament that the world now teaches that "the abnormal is now normal" and the "abomination is now simply an 'alternative lifestyle' and something we should just accept and embrace". This followed by the usual amens.

My mother (who of course knows about me) is now walking around very sad and angry. Angry that such a message was interjected into her day. Angry at herself that she sat silently and let those words ride. Angry a bit at "God", I believe...for leaving her and my father in such a state of confusion over this whole situation. The faith preached in their upbringing offers prescious little in the way of accomodation for their little mo son. But not angry at me...just sadness. A sadness for subjecting me to that. A sadness for not really knowing what to say to me now. A sadness for not knowing how they are going to reconcile this for themselves or address it with the congregation. A sadness for being afraid at the idea of doing so.

It's left a cloud of quiet on the Mother's Day. They're off to see some friends of theirs for right now, but we are supposed to get back together in just awhile. I'm really pissed about the whole thing. My Mom and Pop both are fully aware that I was only about a bee's dick away from preaching my own sermon right there in the church- only respect for the folks and their place within that bunch held my tongue. The congregation was very close to getting a Mother's Day preaching they never expected. As it is, only my family got one.

Anyway...I just had to vent this out as it picked at that old familiar scar yet again. I really needed this forum to direct the rage toward because I want to try to brush it off as soon as possible before getting back with them again today. For the Jesus apologists: do both of us a favor and resist posting in here. I am in no mood for it right now, and you don't want to hear what I will likely say in reply.

I don't understand the rationale behind attending a church that denounces you and/or your loved ones as depraved sinners waiting the wrath of Jehovah. Respect for tradition is not the same thing as submitting to torture.

I am presuming that your parents are devout Christians and not just habituated to Sunday morning service. Would it be unkind to suggest that they enquire into the Unitarian Universalist church and the fellowship offered there?

Sorry you had to listen to that crap, thunter, and that it clouded the day for your mom.Thirteen years ago, a clergyman took 5 minutes of the eulogy at my father's funeral to call my brothers and I to repent and return to the fold (before it's too late!)I can still get fucking furious about it.

TimMy partner who died in 1995, was from Atlanta and his family was Baptist. His uncle who was a preacher....died of AIDS before him. It was enough to shake the family into accepting Paul, and me.....as a couple. One of Pauls brothers, however, did not have the goodness in his heart to accept him for who he was and Paul died knowing that his brother felt that he had "left the church". As you said: "how we sinful folk have gotten away from the truths of the "mother church" and have led this country astray. " It made Paul very distraught to know that as he was dying, his brother did not accept him.I cant offer you any consolation except that you seem to have a really wonderful family. Be thankful for that.

Thank goodness my mother stopped going to the Baptist church of my upbringing and returned to the Episcopal Church. When I go to church now I go to hers, and they don't preach such repelling things. In fact, her preacher even knows about my HIV.

Well, Tim, I guess you have a good excuse not to go to church with them anymore. Sucks that your family's Mothers Day was ruined with this kind of stuff.

Born and raised Catholic, I have a difficult time reconciling the fact that I call myself Catholic whilst members of the Church condemn my lifestyle. I'm attending a commitment ceremony for the first time where a couple friends will exchange vows in an Episcopalian Church. Maybe after that I can return to services and not get morally attacked.

Yes, devout is putting it mildly. But also yes, they are indeed wonderful people. They are simple mountain folk. They don't mean to subject me or themselves to torture. They just were never properly prepared to have to even consider this type of thing prior to me. In the way of their teaching, it was always something that was thought to never be a problem for good christian families that raised their children right. All very cut & dry.

While a respectable suggestion, I don't think it would do much to recommend a change of church. To put it bluntly, they are both getting on in years and (especially my Father) not in good health at all. Having had this as their faith their entire lives, they're a bit close to the point of "crossing over" to be putting their whole system of worship under reconstruction. I understand that. And most importantly, I understand that they are not viewing me as to blame for this. They have quietly undergone their own reevaluation of spirituality during all this. To have them try to bow out and into some new setting would offer more imbalance to them than benefit to all of us- I rarely go anyway, and this congregation houses their brother and sisters and life-long friends. I don't want to ask them to abandon all of these close ties for me since I am not in regular attendance by any stretch.

We have reached understanding within our family and that is enough. I'm just angry and upset that this threw such a sudden wrench into the Mother's Day time together. All of us are feeling bad for how the other one feels. It blows.

A couple of years ago, I received an invitation to my cousin's wedding in Washington, DC. Not only was the invite addressed to me only (not my partner), but I found out later that my aunt/uncle actively searched out an Episcopal Church and priest that were anti-gay. During the ceremony, the priest HAD to make an issue about the horrors of same-sex relationships. Of course before I knew it () a rather loud "I can't fucking believe this shit.." came outta my mouth, enough to make heads turn in the church, LOL.

Of course before I knew it () a rather loud "I can't fucking believe this shit.." came outta my mouth, enough to make heads turn in the church, LOL.

Don't let the freaks spoil the day with your family, boss.

Big furry hugs,John

See! That's the good part: I'm not generally expected to darken the doors of the church because, um...my inclination toward using my "outside voice" is pretty well established. And I have a fairly short fuse when people are treading in areas where I have strong convictions. I am a very diplomatic sort, but also rather fearless when I feel I am in the right. Mom knows this especially well, so requests for attendance at these sorts of things are very rare. We were just caught off guard here because we didn't expect that kind of tilt to come from a Mother's Day service. I know Mama was also momentarily terrified, wondering what her son might say at any moment. She knows I held my tongue on her behalf; that's part of what has her sad about it now...she feels bad that I did so for her and Dad. She feels bad for being thankful that I did.

Tim, don't let those asshole ruing your day with your Mom just thank God that you have a wonderful Mom that loves no matter what. One day this people will understand that is more than just sex in same sex couples.

I can certainly see how this has cast a black cloud over Mother's day -- for both youand your family. You're anger and sadness is understandable, and I think it's a goodthing you are letting it out here. That's one of the reasons we are all here, to supporteach other. You must have demonstrated tremendous restraint not to provide aresponse -- I'm not sure I could have done so. That kind of restraint eventually requires a release.

At least you and your family have reached an understanding on this matter. As forreconciling it with the church, in most Christian churches that just isn't possible,for as you say it is generally a "black and white" issue. That leaves most Christianfamilies with gay and lesbian members in a constant state of conflict. It's painful,and stressful, and tends to bubble up a inopportune moments.

This is going to sound weird, and I apologize if it sounds crazy or inappropriate, but one way I've been able to deal with this is to find some way to forgive folks who spew these beliefs. It's not easy, and I don't always succeed. But sometimes it is the only thing that is within my power to do.

It definitely sucks big time that you and your parents feel badly for how each otherfeels. Try not to let that interfere with enjoying the rest of Mother's day with your mother, and father (again, easier said than done). But speaking as one whose mother passed when I was young, I'd gnaw off my right arm to have that opportunity.

Hugs,

Henry

Logged

"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Actually, I'm not that in need of forgiving the people who said it. I've all but dismissed them from my mind anyway. Argh! They can think whatever they want. I'm mostly just ticked because of how it left all of us scrambling emotionally. Mad at the situation more than the people. They are trivial to me.

I hate that happened to you. More importantly, your family seems to have accepted you, as mine has accepted me. That's what really counts, in the long run. I wouldn't expect them to change religions or anything, but I'm sure that they know that a lot of what is preached is based on the personal beliefs of the individual preaching.

I really don't think most parents are 'prepared' to have gay or lesbian children. I mean, boys are boys and become men. Girls are girls and become ladies. Some of us throw a wrench in their conventional thinking and are gay. It sounds like your parents accept that pretty well; I know mine do. My family and close friends know about my being gay and being HIV+. I certainly don't think that any of them were 'prepared' for dealing with me being HIV+. There's not really a lot of options for people faced with accepting those who are different in some way; they either accept or don't.

When people preach what you heard in church, or say what the young guy did in Iggy's post, often, it's out of ignorance (and sometimes it's not). In this case, I doubt it was intended to hurt anybody, and I doubt that you and your parents were the only gay or parents of a gay child present. Sometimes, what one hears over and over becomes a truth to them. Question them as to what they say or about their beliefs, and they really don't know why 'it's that way'.

I can generally tell when things are said with malicious intent or out of ignorance. Ignorance isn't such an issue, and I try to bring a little enlightenment when I can. Maliciousness is different, and I'll often respond in my 'outside voice' and make 'em feel stupid. Anyway, it sounds like you have great parents, and that's what's important here.

Hey baby- Sorry to hear about that. I'm lucky-my mom doesn't go to church anymore and my father never really was a church-goer. I attend a church where the pastor is a lesbian and has been with her partner for 30+ years. Today we sang the song "Let There Be Peace on Earth" and I'm wishing that peace your way for the rest of you and your mom's mother's day! Betty

Logged

I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Tim honey, sounds like you have a great Mom, who loves you unconditionally.

Where your parents go to church is probably similar to the church I was raised in, and we both know that no one is going to change the way of thinking of most of those people. It's like beating your head against a brick wall; it serves no purpose.

Be thankful for the love of your family, ignore the rest and move on.

Love & hugs,

Alan

Logged

"Remember my sentimental friend that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others." - The Wizard of Oz

Tim, I cant wait to read the letter you are composing in your head to the board of elders of the church...... I think putting it down in writing will help you put this back together. I am sorry that this happened on Mothers Day... I would have not held my toung as well as you did. My religious upbringing is still important to me... But I will have nothing to do with those who have twisted the book around as it has been done. This is the way these people have been brought up.... Sometimes I have to say its just the bad stuff they have learned that has been past down for generations.... I have a gay paster, in a primarily gay church and the diversity is so refreshing for me....

Of course, there is the United Church of Christ, but barring some a change in membership, your parents need to get the courage to express that they do not believe in what was expressed. This need not have been done with words. They could simply walk out? People would wonder how what was being said could have offended regular church-goers like your parents. Then, when approached, your parents could express their dismay that the diatribe to which they were subjected struck them as at odds with Jesus' command to love God and love they neighbor.

I grew up in a family not unlike your own....but my father and stepfather were both Methodist preachers. Years after leaving home and not attending church I finally broke down and went to a church a friend of mine suggested.... I attended several Sunday morning services (which incidentally was more music than anything) and enjoyed it immensely....then one Sunday the minister stepped down due to an illness and a deacon took over the services....the first thing he started preaching was that homosexuals were taking over the world. There was a whole pue of us sitting there in the center of the church (all close friend of mine) and without thinking I made the comment "We aren't taking over the world....we're trying to redecorate it" which caught the deacons ear. Our whole pue left and when we got outside everybody broke into a laugh at what I had said. A year later after Katrina, I had people come up to me and invite me to return to the services....informing me the deacon had left the church after being asked to by other members. Of course I moved and never went back but it gave me hope to think that maybe, just maybe some people have gotten tired of the same old message of hate and bigotry.

In regards to your experience....I can certainly understand your feelings on the subject. I found it amazing to see how aware you were of your parents predicament....and the unconditional love they must have for you. That in its self is a blessing. Like Bucko suggested....Your parents may need to find another place to worship if going there causes them such distress. I assume they have been going there for years and no doubt have family and friends there. No matter how you look at it....some people will never change....will continue to spout their anti-love messages .... Just don't forget to give your parents a big hug and let them know you love them more for their obvious unconditional love they have shown you by facing such adversity.

You cannont talk sense and or facts to those who believe that when they die...they get pretty little wings and a halo. How does THAT make any rational sense at all.

Logged

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

When the pharisees asked Jesus,what is the greatest commandment of all, he said "love thy neighbor" not "love thy neighbor except if he is gay". I am a Catholic and at the moment I am going through one those periods where you wonder wtf its all about. somedays it appears the institutions of Christianity have perverted the teachings of Jesus to serve their own purpose and power.

When the pharisees asked Jesus,what is the greatest commandment of all, he said "love thy neighbor" not "love thy neighbor except if he is gay". I am a Catholic and at the moment I am going through one those periods where you wonder wtf its all about. somedays it appears the institutions of Christianity have perverted the teachings of Jesus to serve their own purpose and power.

SOMEDAYS? JUST SOMEDAYS? It is FACT that the bible has been manipulated by those in power for their own purposes and agendas.

Logged

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

yes, somedays. Somedays I have to overlook it and other days I just cant. I have a very hard time excepting the intolerance of Christian groups for those who are different than they are. I cant come to grips with the Catholics churchs policy of no women as priests, as well as not eating meat on fridays,figure that one out. I also understand I cant fuck my donkey. I still cant find Jesus condemning homosexuality anywhere. Its all old testament,written my men to control other men.I have gone through periods of absolutely not believing to periods of devout belief and right now I am in between. I am not going to feel guilty about it. Did God create people so they couldnt think or use their own common sense. Did God create people who are physically and emotionally attracted to those of the same sex only to have them condemned by other men who profess to talk to God? Of course not.

If you are catholic, you MUST feel guilty, I believe its required. As they attempted to brainwash me in early childhood, I remember that a full plate of GUILT is ALWAYS on the menu!

Logged

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

I refuse to feel guilty. The only person other than my wife who knows I am + is my priest. He has never made any judgements or asked me how I was infected. He only offered support. He was very helpful in the first couple of years of my personal hiv journey. It was all love. Sometimes you have to look past all the bureaucratic bullshit. Right now I am having a problem doing that.

While I empathize with your parents frustrations, I assume they have both moral and physical backbones. I went through the same thing with my father who never, ever accepted me for who I was and after my mother died, I left him and moved to Florida. Yes he was raised Catholic, but he MADE A CHOICE to not accept me and instead developed anti-gay sentiments and feelings. I loved my parents and I still love the memory of my father, but I will never forgive him for choosing some religious dogma over his own son.

Anybody who suggests that people are passive participants, when they espouse hateful beliefs and ferment discrimination against the "unholy" are frauds and should be called out every chance we get. I do not envy anyone the task of getting your parents to revise their religious beliefs, but at some point, we are solely responsible for what we believe and for how we act. To suggest anything else is just a lie.

While I empathize with your parents frustrations, I assume they have both moral and physical backbones. I went through the same thing with my father who never, ever accepted me for who I was and after my mother died, I left him and moved to Florida. Yes he was raised Catholic, but he MADE A CHOICE to not accept me and instead developed anti-gay sentiments and feelings. I loved my parents and I still love the memory of my father, but I will never forgive him for choosing some religious dogma over his own son.

Anybody who suggests that people are passive participants, when they espouse hateful beliefs and ferment discrimination against the "unholy" are frauds and should be called out every chance we get. I do not envy anyone the task of getting your parents to revise their religious beliefs, but at some point, we are solely responsible for what we believe and for how we act. To suggest anything else is just a lie.

i'm a bit lost on that post there, joe. maybe i am reading too much into it.

are you saying my parents are frauds for not immediately turning their mother's day into a pflag meeting?

and are you saying i was sort of posting a "lie" to suggest they were passive in the event?

i'm sorry, but i do give my ma and pa a pass for being caught off guard in the moment & not knowing what to do. i guess mom should have been at the ready and packed protest signs in with her choir book.

ok- i'm sacrificing "the cause", i'm sure...but i think at this late stage of the game asking them to tear themselves away from every other person they have in their lives...their brothers and sisters and immediate circle of lifelong friends...as well as completely tossing out their faith system in its entirety when they are both pretty close to the crossing over point is only going to do more to rip out all support systems for them than it is to break down any barriers for me. i don't see such an action leading to a social and spiritual revolution at this tiny little mountain church. i do see it creating a tremendous emotional and psychological upheaval for them with precious little to be gained. we've made our peace with one another, and that's enough for me in this particular instance.

As a "Reformed Baptist", I sympathize with the way your day was ruined. In my 20's I was a devout church goer who watched and listened. The more I watched and listened, the more hypocrisy I saw around me. The interesting thing is the Bible teaches one to "Judge not lest ye be judged" which is exactly what every one of those SOB's is doing. The highest pinnacle of hypocrisy are those Sunday Morning Baptists who screw around the rest of the week and then are holier than thou on Sundays. In the Baptist Church (most churches for that matter) only the "select few" will go to heaven because everyone else just isn't on the true path (whatever that may be).

So from the Baptist perspective, all Catholics, Jews, Gay's and every other non-baptist will end up in Hell. Well, I plan to be on the welcoming committee in heaven when they find out that it's not an exclusive club and that all those Sunday Morning Baptists got it all wrong.

SO the question is why let the ignorant ruin your day. I would just sit there and laugh at the stupidity and close-mindedness of the individual. That person will probably have the lesbian daughter or gay son. It's funny how those things happen to the most pious !

so sorry you and your family had the day ruined.I was raised Catholic, at age 7 I was kicked out of school because I question the Adam and Eve BS in religion class ( when I had no answer to my " So we are all children of Adam and Eve so we are all a product of insest?" and refused to let go of it).The last time I went to church I was 13, the priest told me it was OK to be gay as long as I didn't practice homosexuality. I told him I would remain Catholic, as long as I didn't practice.I've been an atheist for the past 15 yrs now and feel a lot better about myself. No guilt, no hate, no fear. And the most important lesson I learned since I stop believe in imaginary super powers....I learned how to take responsibility for my own actions.

Rich

Logged

POSITIVE PEDALERS... We are a group of people living with HIV/AIDS, eliminating stigma through our positive public example.

ok- i'm sacrificing "the cause", i'm sure...but i think at this late stage of the game asking them to tear themselves away from every other person they have in their lives...their brothers and sisters and immediate circle of lifelong friends...as well as completely tossing out their faith system in its entirety when they are both pretty close to the crossing over point is only going to do more to rip out all support systems for them than it is to break down any barriers for me. i don't see such an action leading to a social and spiritual revolution at this tiny little mountain church. i do see it creating a tremendous emotional and psychological upheaval for them with precious little to be gained. we've made our peace with one another, and that's enough for me in this particular instance.

I don't think you are sacrificing the cause in the least. You show great respect, care and love for your parent's. If you have made peace with one another that is what matters the most.

Woods

Logged

"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it." Nelson Mandela

I don't think you are sacrificing the cause in the least. You show great respect, care and love for your parent's. If you have made peace with one another that is what matters the most.

Ditto. The important thing is that you love your parents and they love you. It's sad that you day was infringed upon by and ignorant asshole, but they are everywhere both in and out of church. What's more important caring about your parent's feelings or proving a point?

Quote

i guess mom should have been at the ready and packed protest signs in with her choir book.

....CLASSIC!!! LOVE IT!!!!

Logged

When it gets hard I always listen to my favorite song of all time..........

The Dalai Lama would tell you that you should look upon the one who hurts you the most as your greatest spiritual guide.... I don't know if you would ever be able to find it in your heart to thank him, but if you can you will be twice blessed. God bless you Tim.Don

These freak fundamentalists kill me. I'm Episcopalian, and this bitch at church sent a mass e mail to everyone telling us we should join the haters that want to break away because attendance at our church is low. Attendance at those "mega-churches" are going up.

I hate the fact that churches are changing, sometimes after hundreds of years of no change, in order to pacify the haters. If Jesus is love, then how can someone who calls themself a Christian have hate in their heart? Those people aren't really Christians.

If more of these freaks would follow what they supposedly believe, there would be a lot less war, killing, fag-bashing and discrimination in the world.

Of course they see what they want to see, to justify their personal bigotry. That part hasn't changed.

Maybe I should have said more because I am not denigrating anyone, just making the point that we are ultimately responsible for what we do and believe. That being said, I have been where you are and however your family chooses to address these issues, is their decision. I suppose the heartache for me is trying to reconcile how your own parents could see you as something less than equal and that the reality of who and what you are, matters little in the end. I cannot reconcile that in my mind and I wonder how others are able to straddle that line. You either accept me or not, there is no between, but in reality we do as we must, because in the end, even a disfunctional family (like mine) is better than none.

I also do not believe you have given up any cause as church is rarely a good place for intensive debates about some very delicate issues. You did what you felt was in everyone's best interest and I applaud you for that decision and restraint during the sermon. Maybe I over reacted because your post just ripped my heart open again, but that is my issue and I am sorry if I implied anything negative, about your family in my post.

Truth to tell, Joe, I got that from your post- and I understand you completely. Believe me: I was right at that point for many, many years. I think I mentioned above that in years past, the folks would have sided much more with the church than with me. It's only because they HAVE made the journey toward acceptance that I will now even consider darkening the old church doors. After years (and years and years), they finally stepped up. Oh, hon....here is some gospel: In years past, they would have quaked in fear of me showing up at the old church house because their stance had left me Bitter (with that capital "B").

Quote

Maybe I over reacted because your post just ripped my heart open again

That was the whole situation for us the other day. However far we had come as a family, comments from the congregation tore the old wounds right open.

I suppose the heartache for me is trying to reconcile how your own parents could see you as something less than equal and that the reality of who and what you are, matters little in the end.

I got the feeling that the upset was from what somebody said, that a supposedly 'good' person would / could say something as judgemental and insensitive to those around and that others around seemed to agree. I never got the impression that your parents were actually thinking that you were any less of a person.

Said another way... like most things or people, beliefs and faiths have good and bad points. Unfortunately, most opinions on homosexuality are right down there with the worst of 'em. Your parents seem to be caught between what they believe and what they are told to believe.

If more of these freaks would follow what they supposedly believe, there would be a lot less war, killing, fag-bashing and discrimination in the world.

So, Christians could practice what they preach or alternatively, they could look at the "homosexual agenda" and figure out that the world would be better dressed, better groomed, better decorated, etc.