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1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2). 2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26). 3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59). 4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35). 5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

lol. That is very ignorant. Those are all stages of development. They are all mentioned in several verses(to make sense of it):

"And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth).

Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).

Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (leech-like substance), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators. " [Surah Mu'minoon ayaat 12-14]

O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily! We have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge i.e. offspring of Adam), then from a clot (leech-like substance) then from a little lump of flesh, some formed and some unformed (miscarriage), that We may make (it) clear to you (i.e. to show you Our Power and Ability to do what We will)." [Surah Al-Hajj aayah 5]

Allah created the first human (Adam) out of the dust and clay, and He created his children in the wombs of the mother through the stages that were listed. Im sure if yout ry hard enough you can 'make up your own contradictions'.

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# Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256). 2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3). 3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5). 4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).

As for the fourth verse, in no way does it contradict the first verse "There is no compulsion in religion" It dose not call to force non-Muslims to Islam, but rather until they pay jizyah and feel themselves subdued(accept the authority of the Islamic state).

As for the third verse that you posted, and the second, the problem is you omitted the verse in the middle of them(they are in the same chapter), which clearly state that the 'forcing' was only to be done against those who broke a treaty.

And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (pagans) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad ) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

Except those of the pagans with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves the pious

So when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:3-5).

Its funny how you try to find contradictions, but twisting the text and omitting verses, but in the end it they are just lies.

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# The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?

1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12). 2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143). 3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

The third verses makes no reference that they would be the first.

The second verse is Moses (peace be upon him) saying " I am the first to believe" in the sense that noone else will see God in this life. This is what was said regarding the verse by many commentators and companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

As for the first verse, Allah revealed different shareeahs(sets of laws) for different Prophets. As Allah says in another verse "To each nation We prescribe a way" . So in a lingustic sense it means that the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) is the first to submit to the way hat Allah revealed to him for his people(that abrogated the laws that came before it). And to show you im not just making up this interpretation, then another verse of similarity can clarify it for you:

(161. Say: "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, a right religion, the religion of Abrahom, monotheism, and he was not of the pagans.") (162. Say: "Verily, my prayer, my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of all that exists.'') (163. "He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."

Notice how Allah mentions Abraham and that they are upon the same message, and that they are both upon Islaam, but the Prophet Muhammad sws is the first of the Muslims of his nation.

1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116 2. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).

Allah forgave them because they had repented before death, but if one die upon shirk(associating partners with Allah) then Allah will never forgive you.

"Say: "(Allah says) My Slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

"And turn in repentance and in obedience with true Faith (Islamic Monotheism) to your Lord and submit to Him, (in Islam), before the torment comes upon you, then you will not be helped. " [Surah Az-Zumar 53-54]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said "Whoever dies while stille invoking other than Allah will enter hellfire, and whoever dies while invoking Allah alone(and noone else) will enter paradise."

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# Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34). 2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115). 3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106). 4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).

The issue is simply a misunderstanding of what it means when it says "none can change His words." He clears states in the other verses that it is He who substittues one revelation for another, not any human being, jinn, or creation. Likewise, It is His Decree that He should change some of the revelation and none can change that.

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# Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?

1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92). 2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).

The first verse is actually a miracle that testifies to the Truth of the Qur'an and in no way contradicts the second. The Pharoah who was drowned was found in the ocean by archealogists in egypt and they have his body preserved.

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# Is wine consumption good or bad?

1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90). 2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15). 3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).[/

Another ridiculous claim. The wine in paradise is not an intoxicant. Proof for this are in the verses:

"They will be served by immortal boys, With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine, Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication. "[Surah Waaqiah ayaat 17-19]

While Gandalf can certainly speak for himself, and I hope he does, I can say right now that Judaism, Christianity and Islam would not exist if not for Platonism. In fact, unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam is additionally dependent upon Aristotle as well.

You want proof???....Read something besides the Quran and Surah... read something academic, like the history of religions in the western/near/middle eastern world...study some of the ancient Islamic philosophers such as Averroe:

While Gandalf can certainly speak for himself, and I hope he does, I can say right now that Judaism, Christianity and Islam would not exist if not for Platonism. In fact, unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam is additionally dependent upon Aristotle as well.

You want proof???....Read something besides the Quran and Surah... read something academic, like the history of religions in the western/near/middle eastern world...study some of the ancient Islamic philosophers such as Averroe:

If you want proof of the things that we talk about...do your homework. STUDY about the world that you live in...not just your religion.

We have done our homework; it is not our job to do your homework for you.

~Beth

Good thing you brought up the 'Islamic philosophers and thinkers.' For in reality, these 'concilers of Islamic and Greek thought were completely refuted by scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim(May Allah have mercy on them). Greek thought is based upon speculation and conjecture free from any revelation. This is conisdered to be complete disbelief and blasphemuy. Islam is based upon revelation from the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth which can be applied in accordance with the intellect. The difference is our refernce point is the revelation, and their reference point is their own intellect.

Greek philosophers used to claim that universe always existed. Such claims were stated by the pagans of makkah(mecca) and are a common type of disbelief:

"And they say: "There is nothing but our life of this world, we die and we live and nothing destroys us except Ad-Dahr (the time). And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture. " [Surah Jathiyah verse 24]

The Qur'an is completely against these type of 'philosophies' and clearly stated that true knowledge (of reality) comes from God alone.

They (angels) said: "Glory be to You(O God), we have no knowledge except what you have taught us. Verily, it is You, the All-Knower, the All-Wise." [Surah Al-Baqarah verse 32]

The reality is, the greek works werent translated and read by Muslims until after the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and after the development of Islam. These 'thinkers' who tried to reconcile them did so when the dominance of Islam became weakened and people started to deviate from the religion.

So if you want to talk about greek thought 'developed Islam' then the statements of thinkers who came hundreds of years after the 'development of Islam' cant be used as proof.

-Abraham

Btw, when I say 'Qur'an and Sunnah', the sunnah arent the 'Surahs' surahs are chapters of the Qur'an. The Sunnah is the example of the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) [his life, statements, actions, and other revelation that he spoke besides the Qur'an]

Ummm.... I dont have anywhere near the historical knowledge of either Beth or Gandalf, and I certainly haven't researched any of this the way that have.

But I do have Google! That pretty much points me in the right direction if I want some basic information like dates, timelines, things like that.

So, If I have a look at a statement like this:"So if you want to talk about greek thought 'developed Islam' then the statements of thinkers who came hundreds of years after the 'development of Islam' cant be used as proof. "I can very quickly look up info on Plato - who lived around 400 to 300 BC, and the origins of Islam, which was around 600 to 700 AD.

That all seems pretty straight forward.

I do however understand, having spent 16 years of my life well entrenched in christian dogma, that when one is to appear faithful to one's religion, one must never question the historical or factual contents of one's religious texts. They are after all the True Words of God! One's own god of course. Because the words of any other god are nothing but lies and deceipt. We all know that!

The problems with all these kind of religions is that they are all very self contained with their own self justifying and internally consistent logic, so when seen from the inside looking out as it were, they are very hard to deny (from their own point of view). Unfortunately this is what actually undermines them as warning lights should start flashing once you actually start thinking outside of the box and look at other religions; you begin to see that they ALL operate this way! This is why hard-core believers of various religions can never come to terms with each other as they are all 100% convinced that theirs is the most logical and righteous 'truth', so much so, that to be perfectly honest, even attempting to have any kind debate is ultimately pointless and achieves nothing.

Abraham_ you really need to look at texts that originate OUTSIDE of the Qu'ran and other Islamic religious texts, otherwise everything you read is simply there to confirm what you already believe! Also, to be worried about doing so because such texts may be 'blasphemous' is ridiculous. Can't you see that such pronouncements are there to curb any kind of questioning on behalf of believers? You do not have a problem with this?

I would say, start reading texts that show other perspectives and don't simply disregard them as 'blasphemous' texts. You may find some of them informative. This reminds me of these pointless debates you often get when fundamentalist Christians and Muslims argue with each other about which text is the most historically accurate and factuallybased, using the Bible and the Qu'ran as their sole evidence!!!

Sorry Abraham, that just isn't cutting it. You also typically refuse to see the long Hellenistic tradition out of which Islam evolved, yet you continue to tout Islam as 'the religion of proofs', an often used phrase which only serves to underline Islam's approach of utilising rational discourse and logical reasoning which is itself a direct continuation of the Hellenistic tradition!

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"It is to Scotland that we look for our idea of civilisation." -- Voltaire.

Islam is based upon revelation from the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth which can be applied in accordance with the intellect. The difference is our refernce point is the revelation, and their reference point is their own intellect.

What do you think 'revelation' is, if not 'apprehension by the intellect'?

And just where, Abraham, do you think the earliest Islamic writers got the ideas that there even is an intellect that can be in accordance with the earth and heavens, let alone the fact that the intellect could ever apprehend anything of a divine nature at all??

I'll answer this one for you: Plato and Aristotle.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the most important message that Mohammed was communciating, was to set a most excellent example of how essential it is for humanity to use its intellect?

Somehow I don't think that Mohammed would approve of his people 'ceasing to use their own intellects' in favor of totally depending upon his.

The Quran is an excellent example of applying the intellect to certain revelations (apprehensions by the intellect) that concerned the most pressing issues of the 6th-9th century world.

Mohammed set an excellent example that we can learn from him: that is, to apply'our own intellects' to the most pressing issues concerning the 21st century world that we live in, instead of trying to keep 6th-9th century ideas alive.

Mohammed thought for himself...Mohammed recognized the need to update the Jewish and Christian ideas that were ancient even in his day, so he took those ideas and applied them to his 6th century world. I think he would want us to do the same for our 21st century world.

~Beth

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Become a Critical Thinker! "Ignorance is the greatest of all sins." --Origen of Alexandria

Islam is based upon revelation from the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth which can be applied in accordance with the intellect. The difference is our refernce point is the revelation, and their reference point is their own intellect.

What do you think 'revelation' is, if not 'apprehension by the intellect'?

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And just where, Abraham, do you think the earliest Islamic writers got the ideas that there even is an intellect that can be in accordance with the earth and heavens, let alone the fact that the intellect could ever apprehend anything of a divine nature at all??

I'll answer this one for you: Plato and Aristotle.

The 'earliest Islamic writers' plainly and quite simply derived their entire thinking and basis from the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

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Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the most important message that Mohammed was communciating, was to set a most excellent example of how essential it is for humanity to use its intellect?

Somehow I don't think that Mohammed would approve of his people 'ceasing to use their own intellects' in favor of totally depending upon his.

The reality is that nothing he said regarding the religion was from himself, but completely from God(as a revelation)

By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes). Your companion (Muhammad ) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired. He has been taught (this Qur'an) by one mighty in power [Jibrael (Gabriel)].free from any defect in body and mind, [then he (Jibrael ­ Gabriel) rose and became stable]. [Tafsir At-Tabari]. While he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] was in the highest part of the horizon, Then he [Jibrael (Gabriel)] approached and came closer, And was at a distance of two bows' length or (even) nearer, So did (Allah) convey the Inspiration to His slave [Muhammad through Jibrael (Gabriel)]. The (Prophet's) heart lied not (in seeing) what he (Muhammad ) saw. [Surah An-Najm verses 1-11]

Say (O Muhammad ): "I warn you only by the revelation (from Allah and not by the opinion of the religious scholars and others). But the deaf (who follow the religious scholars and others blindly) will not hear the call, (even) when they are warned "[Surah Anbiya verse 45]

The reality is that nothing he said regarding the religion was from himself, but completely from God(as a revelation)

Funny, isn't that exactly what the Christians say about the Bible? So tell me... Who's right? The Christians or the Muslims?They both have texts that are the undeniable "true" word of God.That's why Christian's and Muslims are spending so much time hating and killing each other IN THE NAME OF GOD!!!

Both religions are so convinced that God revealed His Will, the entirety of His wisdom and knowledge, to some guy thousands of years ago, so he doesn't need to tell anyone anything else now, you can just go read it in one of his "True Word of God" books.

What if both Muhummad and Jesus were actually trying to set an example for the rest of us by telling us we don't have to remain bound by religious traditions, but can instead talk to God ourselves!

Now there's a thought! What if we did actually start talking to God ourselves? Nothing miraculous about it, we can all do it.

What if we started thinking "I'm not happy with the way all these religious books keep telling me to hate and kill other people all the time". They all do it! The Qur'an, the Bibile, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, etc. They all say "ours is the only right way, you must force everyone to believe it, and you'll get big rewards if you kill or die in God's name becase he kills people all the time so it must be right."

What if God wasn't like that at all?You know what? Until you stop reading books telling you how to think and start thinking for yourself, start turning to inner "God Given" wisdom and knowledge, start understanding the differences between love and fear, you never will find out who God really is.You'll only ever be stuck believing what someone else has told you to believe.

The reality is that nothing he said regarding the religion was from himself, but completely from God(as a revelation)

Yes and No.

No, not completely. Mohammed was definately very familiar with both Jewish and Christian scripture; he obviously greatly depended upon it because he quotes it a lot, and...

Yes I agree, in that it can certainly be said that he did receive revelation. Mohammed opened his mind and 'allowed God to give him revelations' and God did so by 'acting upon Mohammed's intellect'. Therefore, Mohammed was able to 'receive revelations' which is the same thing as 'using one's intellect to apprehend the divine'.

Revelation is a two-way street Abraham: there must be a giver and a receiver. In the case of Divine revelation, the Divine is the giver and a human intellect is the receiver.

Mohammed was, no doubt, a very special man, but, no more special than any of the rest of us---if we are willing to live our lives in such a way that 'our intellect is open to God's'. This is not easy at all. To live in such a way requires a negation of many things that this physical world is made of---it is just too 'noisy' otherwise. It is, however, possible, and there have been many 'great thinkers' that also 'received revelation' through the millennia. Mohammed was probably one of these, but.....Not the only one.

God Is. And God decides who will receive revelations. Humans do not.

By adhering to these ancient and antiquated religions (all of which are well over 1,000 years old) we have cut our world off from the very source that these religions claim to know so much about.

'Religion' is blocking any chance of new revelation. 'Religion' has closed the 'mouth of God'.

I think God is stirring the waters of this world through gradually chipping away at the religions created in 'His Name' in order to allow for 'new revelations'.

~Beth

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Become a Critical Thinker! "Ignorance is the greatest of all sins." --Origen of Alexandria

No, not completely. Mohammed was definately very familiar with both Jewish and Christian scripture; he obviously greatly depended upon it because he quotes it a lot, and...

As for the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) being very familar with both Jewish and Christian scripture, this impossible based upon a number of points:

1)The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not know how to read or write.

And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."[Al-Qur’an 29:48]

2) The Arabic translation of the Bible was nott present at the time of the Prophet Muhammad(peacea nd blessings of Allah be upon him). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament was in 900 C.E., nearly 200 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The oldest Arabic version of the New Testament was not present until 1616 C.E., nearly 1000 years afetr the death of the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

3) The knowledge of Jewish scripture was kept secret and hidden by the Jews in Madinah, and the only Christians who were near were in Yemen.

4) The life of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was recorded like an open book, revelation came to him sometimes immediately after someone asked hima question. He was constantly being examined and suoght after by the Pagans of Makkah. And even after all that, they could not point out any instance of secret converstaions with any Jews or Christians to help him.

The similarity of some teachings in the Qur'an and the Bible in no way proves that the Qur'an came from the Bible. But rather, it is an affirmation that the Qur'an is a continuation of God's Message to humanity.

When you come to the conclusion that the Qur'an is from God, then you'll take that above yoru own ideas, your own speculations, your own conjectures, and worship God sincerely based upon what He revealed for humanity.

The reality is that nothing he said regarding the religion was from himself, but completely from God(as a revelation)

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Funny, isn't that exactly what the Christians say about the Bible? So tell me... Who's right? The Christians or the Muslims?They both have texts that are the undeniable "true" word of God.That's why Christian's and Muslims are spending so much time hating and killing each other IN THE NAME OF GOD!!!

Actually that is a little incorrect. I have never heard a Christian completely stand upon teh point the Bible is the undenaible 'true' word of God. In fact, the majority of the New Testament was written by men (John, Mark etc.) and their supposed 'accounts' of Jesus. Likewise, you look into any Bible and you'll find Christian commentators admitting to missing parts, inaccuracies etc. You cannot say any of this about the Qur'an.

You continue by stating 'whta if God was this' 'what if the Prophets were this'. These are your vain desirse. The Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him)'s life was clearly recorded and documented, his message was clear, and his religion was clear. Worship God alone, and Obey His Messengers. The only way we can get to know God Almighty and His Will, is by following those who he sends as Messengers, not by following our own ideas, desires, and opinions.

I am weary of trying to get you to use your own intellect. An intellect, I might add, that Allah gave to you so that you may use it for discernment. You are not using your gift from God, Abraham.

If you think that the person who conceived the Quran could not read or write, then you believe in fairy tales. Even if I were to allow the possibility that the author was illiterate, if you believe that he verbally quoted, verbatum in some cases, from out of both the Old and New Testaments--as a direct revelation from Allah--then, I have the unpleasant task of telling you that Allah was a lover of fiction.

The Old and New Testaments were a collection of fictional stories put together over a long period of time, by various writers, and as you admit yourself, written by 'man'. Since you know that at least the NT was written by man, then have you asked yourself why Allah would have given such man-made stuff in the precious task of direct divine revelation??

As to the fact that the bible had to have been consulted in the writing of the Quran, well...I am not going to go into the philological process of the development of languages with you, but I will say that just because there was not a full 'Arabic translation' of the NT during the 5th century (which I question anyway) that does not mean that Arab people of the region did not speak and read Greek and Latin--and those were the primary languages that the bible was written in at the time (and a few other languages as well.)

During the early centuries of the first millennium, Abraham, the world was a very different place than it is today. Multi-culturalism was the accepted norm, and most people were at least bi-lingual and some tri-lingual plus some. I am sure that all educated Arabs knew at least all three of these languages.

Where you say that the "The knowledge of Jewish scripture was kept secret and hidden by the Jews in Madinah" -- I must point out the Hebrew Bible itself was not compiled until the 7th-8th centuries AD, several centuries after the supposed days of Mohammed!! Until then, 'Jewish scripture' was found in full in both the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate.

Abraham, you are not doing your homework. You are not even trying to see things from a wider perspective.

By the content of your posts, I must conclude that you are only here to try and convert people to Islam. You are wasting your time....and MINE. People that come to the this forum do not want to be converted. Either they have their own religious beliefs, or they are trying to unwind themselves from the ones that they have been offered.

This is not a religious forum. We have a religion section only because astral travel and other aspects of our metaphysical reality calls many religious beliefs into question. Because the reality of astral travel is so profound in a person's life, people come here to learn more about it...and to work out those religious problems that are confounding to them. I am here to try and help them cope with and try to understand their experiences. They do not come here looking for a new religion. There are plenty of other forums for that.

~Beth

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Become a Critical Thinker! "Ignorance is the greatest of all sins." --Origen of Alexandria

exactly spot on. when i got out of the dogma of religion and started to think for myself, live life exploring it asking questions not basing each decision on a book or made up opinions - talking to God on my own and not someone Else's interpretation on what God is saying to me, my life just get better and better.

I received 3 images when i was starting down this road was rather scary if you think of the fullest of there meanings.

in short:God was on one side with this HUGE wall that was made out of religion blocking him out completely with as us on the other side. there was how ever small holes starting to form which was starting to let through God to us.

There was this vast number of people walking down this broad path to the end. on the sides of the path was preachers from various beliefs who was teaching their point of view onto them. They in the end became shackled into it not able to think for themselves just going onwards. Right next to that was a smaller road that was really difficult to follow. The people on that one was very few and was struggling to get somewhere but the more they asked, the more they explored and thinked for themselves they eventually got through - they could however see how the people on the broad path was being shackled by the preachers, but they the shackled could not see that they saw the few people through that they were made to think - blasphemers and evil. In the end narrow was nirvana and the broad one was just pit full that never ended.

I saw a priest. in one hand he had a bible which he was preaching from to a few people and other hand he had a bloodied sword stabbed through the thought of a begging person. He was both preaching and killing at same time.

[This post originated in another thread but is more appropriate here I think!]

Quote from: kamals

"Sufism is experience of life through a method of dealing with life and human relations. This method is based on an understanding of man, which places at one's disposal the means to organize one's relationships and one's learning systems. So instead of saying that Sufism is a body of thought in which you believe certain things and don't believe other things, we say that the Sufi experience has to be provoked in a person. Once provoked, it becomes his own property, rather as a person masters an art." -Seyed Idries Shah, interviewed in Psychology Today, 1975.

From my studies of the earliest Christians (the very earliest Christians!) this was very much the same idea. They were well educated in all of the philosophies that were available to them, e.g., Greek, Persian, Egyptian, etc., and also included certain eastern philosophies as well, e.g., Indian. This life path was called being a 'Son of Man'.

From what I have gathered, their overall endeavor can be rendered something like this: learn all that can about everything that you can, and then make up your own mind as to what you think is correct. With this broad based pedagogical discipline came prayer/meditation to 'God', a practice of good sound ethics--which included harmingno one--and through this intellectual, physical, emotional and spiritual discovery, one could be blessed with a 'spiritual chrism', i.e., become a Christian. This 'chrism' was not something brought about by the 'hand of man', but rather 'by the will/grace of God'. An accomplishment of experiencing this 'chrism' became known as going from a 'Son of Man' to a 'Son of God'.

This 'chrism' was definately 'spiritual'--and definately a process--which included experiences of heightened awareness, lucid dreams, OBE and the big-kuhuna...experiencing the 'blinding light' of divinity. This was known as the 'second chrism', i.e., a baptism by fire/light. (In some writings, the 'first baptism' was through 'water' as in coming 'through the womb'; so all of humanity had automatically received the 'first chrism'.)

Yeppers! These enlightened folks could actually become 'a Christ', aka, 'an anointed one' and 'their own messiah'. Many of these people became known as 'Gnostics'.

When the 'symbol' of the 'first chrism' was artificially created through 'baptism in/with water' such as the Jordan River, etc., the knowledge of experiencing the 'second chrism' or the 'metaphysical chrism' was eventually lost, and eventually too, 'Gnosticism' was branded as heretical ... and well ... the rest of the story is the sad history of 'Christianity'.

I think that the reason there was such a dichotomy between the two, is that the 'thinker/feelers' of the period were somewhat secluded from the world at large, spending most of their time studying, and only getting together with other to discuss certain philosophical ideas. This was actually the 'early church'!! Get together for a meal, have a glass or two of wine, and 'philosophise'!! I assume that these 'get-togethers' became more organized, and more people were invited to attend, and well, one thing led to another, and before you know it, the original point was lost.

Logged

Become a Critical Thinker! "Ignorance is the greatest of all sins." --Origen of Alexandria