Post by ecarg on Oct 11, 2007 10:17:59 GMT -5

A quick thought from a sexual abuse survivor. ( sexual abused at the hands of a "worker" and others I won't mention)

Pedophilia is not a "church" issue. It is a LIFE issue. Yes, it is SICK AND SAD that it is in our churches. ALL churches. It is in our families, our schools, our scout troops, our ball teams, and on and on. Where there are children, there is potential for a pedophile to be present.

It is NOT a gay/lesbian/homosexual issue either. It is not about being sexually deprived. IT IS AN ILLNESS AND A SICKNESS!!!!! And, most likely.......pediphiles were abused themselves. Being sexually abused wounds the soul and strips people of their dignity. It is, in my opinion, the worst form of abuse out there. Especially when mixed with people who supposedly represent God or a Higher Being!

It is my hope and prayer that NO MATTER what theological belief you have, we will STOP making it about the theology of churches and look further at the "perps" themselves and make sure they do not hurt ANY CHILD EVER AGAIN.

I agree that the "institutions" that allow, harbor, and hide these people should be held accountable. And so should the parents or family members who KNOW these things are happening to their children and DO NOTHING to stop it, out of their own fear and egos. It is also the law, that any form of known child abuse must be reported to the authorities. LEGAL authorities. We are ALL accountable. I can appreciate the institutions that are admitting their faults and attempting to make amends to the victims.

I believe that when we become adults, it is our duty to look out for the younger, weaker and less fortunate ones until they are able to help themselves. The problem is, we have too many "children" running around in adult bodies. We ALL need to grow ourselves up, step out of personal denials, accept responsibility for our own mistakes and actions, and make this world a better place to live. We owe it to our creator and to each other. We owe it to the victims of ALL abuse. To reach out as Christ would do. Meet them in their pain. Get real. Dive into the messiness of life. It is only then, can we make a difference.

Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 13:54:31 GMT -5

Clearday, has express the importance of mercy even towards the offenders -- I agree completely. Sexual offenders inspite of their failures, are people like the rest of us -- and their failure in personal lives has most often cause enormous suffering on their parts also.

I firmly believe that although it may be extremely painful at the time, the most merciful stratagy to help them is openess as to their problems. This will create the safest environment for both them and for potential victimes. It will also defuse the potential for new misery in the case of an 'information leak' or blackmail by leadership in an amatour effort to influence a 'better life'.

Just imagine the poor folks senior workers have forced to live with a horrible secret - that could blow up in their face at any time.

This is just from the perspective of the perpetrators--- How much more could open acknowledgement of the victims pain be a positive in their recovery.

Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 14:55:52 GMT -5

I agree Edgar. As long as our group (or any group for that matter) is in the mode of beating up on offenders of any kind, then offenses will be kept underground as much as possible. It is a poisoned atmosphere. A true Christian church will never cease to show love and kindness to all, whether in the church or out, whether righteous or sinners.

One of the advantages of having a church policy in which offenses are immediately reported to the authorities for justice to be served is that it releases the church from administering justice. Then, the church is in a position to offer solely mercy and help to offenders.

edgarmassey said:

Clearday, has express the importance of mercy even towards the offenders -- I agree completely. Sexual offenders inspite of their failures, are people like the rest of us -- and their failure in personal lives has most often cause enormous suffering on their parts also.

I firmly believe that although it may be extremely painful at the time, the most merciful stratagy to help them is openess as to their problems. This will create the safest environment for both them and for potential victimes. It will also defuse the potential for new misery in the case of an 'information leak' or blackmail by leadership in an amatour effort to influence a 'better life'.

Just imagine the poor folks senior workers have forced to live with a horrible secret - that could blow up in their face at any time.

This is just from the perspective of the perpetrators--- How much more could open acknowledgement of the victims pain be a positive in their recovery.

Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 15:53:07 GMT -5

Let's hope in light of all the recent fall-out over sexual abuse cases the Workers are using the current time wisely to bring into being strong measures to root out these type of practices from the ministry and to prevent them as much as possible from occurring again. If they are considering such (it's hard to think they are not considering this), then may these measures mirror what has been implemented elsewhere in society with a compulsion to bring to notice of the appropriate authorities, those instances of alleged abuses and to implement restrictive domestic and social measures for their ministers wherever minors and other vulnerable persons are involved. The vulnerability of young workers should also be a major consideration, especially when considering the fact they are usually assigned to older or more experienced workers, from whom they are expected to "learn the ropes " within a closed, secretive and dominating society.

Such revolutionary methods and procedures would indeed cause quite a stir throughout the fellowship, at least in the initial stages and especially wherever heads may roll, but in time I believe the dust would settle with the lay members accepting the wisdom of these measures and the price that must be paid in order to address and prevent such problems and to move on.

The identities of those who surface, whether victims or accused, during the course of investigations should as far as is possible be kept discreet and only those who are convicted in a court of law should be made available afterwards ,if in the public interest. Whilst we should first and foremost consider the victims of such practices, who are often minors, we must also be diligent to the fact that some abusers may need help with spiritual reconciliation amongst other things.

If the Workers are dragging their heels over these issues, or are trying to circumvent doing the open, proper things which society now demands, then it is inevitable that questions (and quite rightly so) will be asked of those who master the evasiveness as to why they are doing so. In turn suspicions will fall upon their past with further questions being asked about whether they themselves have similar deeds to hide. As I've said on other posts, this is wake up time and at least as far as these issues are concerned the movement must show it has joined the "real world."

Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 11, 2007 18:02:33 GMT -5

ram said:

Let's hope in light of all the recent fall-out over sexual abuse cases the Workers are using the current time wisely to bring into being strong measures to root out these type of practices from the ministry and to prevent them as much as possible from occurring again. If they are considering such (it's hard to think they are not considering this), then may these measures mirror what has been implemented elsewhere in society with a compulsion to bring to notice of the appropriate authorities, those instances of alleged abuses and to implement restrictive domestic and social measures for their ministers wherever minors and other vulnerable persons are involved. The vulnerability of young workers should also be a major consideration, especially when considering the fact they are usually assigned to older or more experienced workers, from whom they are expected to "learn the ropes " within a closed, secretive and dominating society.

Such revolutionary methods and procedures would indeed cause quite a stir throughout the fellowship, at least in the initial stages and especially wherever heads may roll, but in time I believe the dust would settle with the lay members accepting the wisdom of these measures and the price that must be paid in order to address and prevent such problems and to move on.

The identities of those who surface, whether victims or accused, during the course of investigations should as far as is possible be kept discreet and only those who are convicted in a court of law should be made available afterwards ,if in the public interest. Whilst we should first and foremost consider the victims of such practices, who are often minors, we must also be diligent to the fact that some abusers may need help with spiritual reconciliation amongst other things.

If the Workers are dragging their heels over these issues, or are trying to circumvent doing the open, proper things which society now demands, then it is inevitable that questions (and quite rightly so) will be asked of those who master the evasiveness as to why they are doing so. In turn suspicions will fall upon their past with further questions being asked about whether they themselves have similar deeds to hide. As I've said on other posts, this is wake up time and at least as far as these issues are concerned the movement must show it has joined the "real world."

Yes we can only hope that the workers will be receptive. I think after the initial "fall-out", itll be easier for them to be proactive. They need to have a zero tolerance policy in place. That should send out the right message and serve as a deterrent.

Post by bit on Oct 11, 2007 19:27:32 GMT -5

[glow=red,2,300]"Yes we can only hope that the workers will be receptive. I think after the initial "fall-out", itll be easier for them to be proactive. They need to have a zero tolerance policy in place. That should send out the right message and serve as a deterrent."[/glow]

Zero tolerance not only for workers who commit crimes but also for the professing men and women who commit crimes against others-be it those in the meeting group or folks on the outside.

Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 11, 2007 19:33:19 GMT -5

bit said:

[glow=red,2,300]"Yes we can only hope that the workers will be receptive. I think after the initial "fall-out", itll be easier for them to be proactive. They need to have a zero tolerance policy in place. That should send out the right message and serve as a deterrent."[/glow]

Zero tolerance not only for workers who commit crimes but also for the professing men and women who commit crimes against others-be it those in the meeting group or folks on the outside.

Post by TFS on Oct 11, 2007 22:55:06 GMT -5

Read Ezekiel 34. God sees now what He saw then. It gives us beautiful hope for the future when we trust HIM. A good read.

I hurt inside when I read of those who have been damaged by the workers. I, too, have been patient in healing by trusting God.

A worker recently apologized from the platform "to all those who had been hurt in anyway by a worker". Apologies are hard to come by. Even a "blanket" apology brought a bit of comfort. I am glad he felt moved to speak it.

Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2007 23:39:48 GMT -5

Apologies are few and far between from this ministry. There is so much practiced and measured humility that many cannot see their pride that hinders their service to God and man.

We had a worker here this summer at convention railing on the faults of the friends, he produced a litany of errors. I recently said to someone who is ensconced in the system, "xxxx would have served his church much better if, rather than pointing out all the mistakes and faults of the friends, that he would apologize for the terrible shepherding job the workers had done". Many of them are too blinded by their own pride and righteousness to consider that the errors of the friends are to a large degree a function of the lack of guidance and guidance of the workers. We have a worker dependent church, and the results of the people are a function of the effectiveness of the workers.

If workers would start to focus on Christ, point people to Christ only (and not themselves), and teach people how to enter into a personal relationship with God, then they would begin to see some marvelous amazing results.

We can no longer cover up the frailties and errors of the workers because of pride. It's time we humbled ourselves before God and man and recognize who we really are, just struggling souls like our neighbours. Then perhaps we wouldn't be plagued by the coverups of people who damage and destroy our children.

TFS said:

Read Ezekiel 34. God sees now what He saw then. It gives us beautiful hope for the future when we trust HIM. A good read.

I hurt inside when I read of those who have been damaged by the workers. I, too, have been patient in healing by trusting God.

A worker recently apologized from the platform "to all those who had been hurt in anyway by a worker". Apologies are hard to come by. Even a "blanket" apology brought a bit of comfort. I am glad he felt moved to speak it.

Post by TFS on Oct 12, 2007 0:09:24 GMT -5

Juli, The worker was an older brother who labors in the Philippines, his first name is John. He was at convention in one of the southern states. I am sure many people didn't even catch the apology, but to those of us who had waited for an apology and never had gotten it, it rang loud and clear.

Post by Claire on Oct 12, 2007 1:14:51 GMT -5

I hate to take the other side of this but couldn't this have been a way to allow people to essentially have the hymn be their testimony, letting them to take a full part in the meeting, without having to speak alone?

Instead of it being a punishment for not having taking part maybe it was a way to reach out and include those who had problems with public speaking.

That's a fine idea, actually. However ... knowing the BWorker in question, and having experienced some of his other control tactics, I now have to choose between hysterical laughter and "Nope".

;D

"...don’t try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal." - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2007 7:39:17 GMT -5

Fortunately, overt control-freak workers are going the way of the dodo bird. I can remember incidences like Caithleen and Robert mentioned, but decades ago. Most folks wouldn't stand for such abuse today, at least not in our part of the world, they would just not go to that worker's GMs.

caithleen said:

I hate to take the other side of this but couldn't this have been a way to allow people to essentially have the hymn be their testimony, letting them to take a full part in the meeting, without having to speak alone?

Instead of it being a punishment for not having taking part maybe it was a way to reach out and include those who had problems with public speaking.

That's a fine idea, actually. However ... knowing the BWorker in question, and having experienced some of his other control tactics, I now have to choose between hysterical laughter and "Nope".

Post by Now now on Oct 12, 2007 7:41:49 GMT -5

caithleen said:

I hate to take the other side of this but couldn't this have been a way to allow people to essentially have the hymn be their testimony, letting them to take a full part in the meeting, without having to speak alone?

Instead of it being a punishment for not having taking part maybe it was a way to reach out and include those who had problems with public speaking.

That's a fine idea, actually. However ... knowing the BWorker in question, and having experienced some of his other control tactics, I now have to choose between hysterical laughter and "Nope".

;D

So you have peered into the hearts of men and determined their motives?

Actually, I was just trying to look at it from all sides. I know none of the people involved. Like to try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at least once!

Post by FREE2BEME on Oct 12, 2007 9:53:06 GMT -5

Thank you TFS :)for the suggestion of reading Ez34.... I read it over this morning... I needed that!We heard alot atconvention about keeping our eyes/focus on Jesus...somethingI pray every day for is to put ALL my trust in God......thanks againand have a great day

Post by perps were often victims on Oct 13, 2007 18:47:23 GMT -5

It's good to keep things in perspective. Many (not all) of the perps were at one time victims too. Most workers have never offended; most priests have not offended, most pastors have not offended. Not all (or most) victims go on to become perps.

If you read the newspaper, listen to radio, or watch TV news...almost constantly there is news of another "pillar of the community"...a cop, the clean-cut looking Jr. High coach, the conservative "family values" televangelist, or republican politician...my gosh...you all know what I mean.

Somebody at TMB has offended...I would bet my last dollar; somebody at TMB has been offended against....exes, or professing. Life is strange.

Post by Mr Cynical on Oct 13, 2007 19:15:00 GMT -5

Most perps were victims? No doubt. I think I am a bit more cynical. I for one have never offended....ah, but there was the time I drunkenly made sexually suggestive things to a minor cousin; there were the times (as a pre-teen) when I and a mentally retarted neighbor girl exposed ourselves to each other; there were a handful of pre-adolescent & post-adolescent homosexual experiments with boyhood pals.

I never did graduate to becoming a sexual offender...but it would not have been that hard. As a middle-aged male adult I am certain that I never will offend....but sometimes my mind wanders into dark areas.

Oh for cryin' out loud...get a girl friend, visit a prostitute, get chemically castrated, masturbate if you must, watch those adult videos, and we all know how to access porno on the web...but refrain from ever victimizing anybody.

I am twice married (not simultaneously) and twice divorced (this is not pertenent to anything) & once was a step-father to an attractive young adult daughter...who I never bothered (actually only saw her on two occasions) but might have had a sexual fling with...as she was much more attractive than her mother (my ex).

I am cynical I guess....I am inclined to think that the perps greater in numbers than most of us even want to know. I am getting too old to ever want to darken my waning years with sexually offending against the innocent. I do not handle guilt well.

Post by it makes me wonder on Oct 14, 2007 2:53:03 GMT -5

When I was a little boy, going to sunday morning meetings, there was a nice white haired old man who after meetings always would go around to us little kids and be very friendly with us...and would always give us sticks of chewing gum (Black Jack).

Way back in those days (the 1950s) child molestion was barely something that was part of the public's awareness...although stuff certainly happened back then too. In this day & age suspicion can easily fall upon adults who seem to take a particular liking to young kids. I may be naive...but I actually think that most of these child-friendly adults simply like kids, and have no sexual agenda. The nice old gentleman who always had a friendly word and a stick of gum for us kids after meeting was probably simply just a nice old man....but then you just don't know.

Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 3:05:17 GMT -5

clearday said:

Fortunately, overt control-freak workers are going the way of the dodo bird. I can remember incidences like Caithleen and Robert mentioned, but decades ago. Most folks wouldn't stand for such abuse today, at least not in our part of the world, they would just not go to that worker's GMs.

caithleen said:

I hate to take the other side of this but couldn't this have been a way to allow people to essentially have the hymn be their testimony, letting them to take a full part in the meeting, without having to speak alone?

Instead of it being a punishment for not having taking part maybe it was a way to reach out and include those who had problems with public speaking.

That's a fine idea, actually. However ... knowing the BWorker in question, and having experienced some of his other control tactics, I now have to choose between hysterical laughter and "Nope".

;D

However if we get back to the title of the thread -- What we know is that at this very moment in the city of Saskatoon with literally hundreds and hundreds of friends with families, 'for the sake of the testimony' the workers are actively protecting an ex-worker who admittedly has sexually violated minors. Although this has been pointed out to them -- they still insist on hiding this truth from the hundreds of potential victims - and allow him to ride on the cult doctrine of workers moral superiority.

This is an ongoing policy of the group -- and no-one does a pin about it!!

Edgar

Is there any indication that this case was less serious than his colleague from a neighbor state was guilty of according to this police report a few months ago? www.anotherstep.net/ETC/

Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 6:18:37 GMT -5

loaded quote - "cult doctrine of workers moral superiority"Workers simply have the job of preaching. We have no doctrine which states workers are morally superior to non-workers.In the scripture some non-preaching people had greater understanding and perhaps higher moral standards than the disciples.I see that the young workers have much to learn. We sometimes say they are young in the work, young in the truth.

Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 8:30:07 GMT -5

bert wrote:"Workers simply have the job of preaching. We have no doctrine which states workers are morally superior to non-workers."

bert, I don't know how to say this diplomatically, so I'll just say that the above statement is completely false. I wish it were true and want it to be true, but it is simply not true, not even close.

Our workers all consider themselves as authorities over the church. I realize you live in the outback and don't see how the church operates, but when you have a visiting worker, who "takes" the meeting? The 20 year old worker or the 60 year old elder? If this does not indicate to you higher authority by virtue of appointment by man, then nothing will.

I personally know someone who was kicked out of the meetings. The main stated charge against that person was "disobeying the workers" over some minor issue. Of course there were unstated issues that no one would deal with openly, but the charge of "disobeying the workers" was considered the one that the church as a whole could rally around in order to accomplish the excommunication. At the time, all church officials (ie the elders and workers) agreed with the doctrine of blind worker obedience, I was there to witness it.

Almost all friends and workers view workers to be on a higher authoritative plane than the friends.

The danger arises in cases such as Edgar points out. The workers tell people to hush hush about a child molester in their midst and they do so willingly, putting aside all instincts of right and wrong, and potentially allowing a molester to continue in his deviant sex trade.

I know of another case right now, not far from you. A convicted child molester is attending fshp meeting where there are small children, right about the age he loves to molest. The parents are in a turmoil over it. One parent is clear, that they should not be in meeting with this molester for the safety of the children. Even though there is no danger in the meeting itself, the molester could be whetting his appetite every Sunday until he decides to stalk the children at school, and the one parents fears this. The other parent though feels that they would be disrespecting the authority of the workers by asking for a transfer. This parent, although conflicted over the issue of protecting the children, has opted for "obeying the workers" thinking this is more noble than protecting those innocent children.

Yes, parents will place their own children at risk of destruction in order to obey the workers. The workers are busy trying to keep the fellowship together and find enough people to fill a meeting which has a molester in it so they too are willing to risk the lives of children for it. It's utterly frightening bert.

Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 8:36:54 GMT -5

quote - "Almost all friends and workers view workers to be on a higher authoritative plane than the friends."

You are confusing two issues here. Obeying those who have the rule over us is not the same as saying those who have this rule are superior, morally or otherwise.

An example. the Mary who broke the alabaster box was perhaps more generous and more understanding than the disciples (they were offended with her.) But I would not be surprised if she submitted to their authority.

Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 9:03:15 GMT -5

I'm not at all confused on this bert. Those who place themselves in positions of superiority do so because they believe they are superior, not inferior.

As for the authority of the disciples over Mary, it didn't exist. Authority of one believer over another was expressly taught against and forbidden by Christ by both his words and his actions. Church authority systems developed only after Christ had been dead for some time when people lost full confidence in the Holy Spirit and the words of Christ.

There is only one authority that should rule the lives of the believer.......God.

bert said:

quote - "Almost all friends and workers view workers to be on a higher authoritative plane than the friends."

You are confusing two issues here. Obeying those who have the rule over us is not the same as saying those who have this rule are superior, morally or otherwise.

An example. the Mary who broke the alabaster box was perhaps more generous and more understanding than the disciples (they were offended with her.) But I would not be surprised if she submitted to their authority.

Post by sojourner on Oct 14, 2007 9:13:24 GMT -5

This brings to mind a situation that I am close to. An Elder had been bothering(touching, grabbing, chasing, making lewd comments) about one man's wife. He was coming to her home when the husband was gone and misbehaving. She went to the workers(should have been the law). The workers advised her not to tell her husband. When she did get the courage to share with her husband he was livid because she had disobeyed the workers in telling him. Oh by the way this elder was talked to numerous times by different workers about his behavior with many women. He continued to have meeting in his home until just recently.

Shoutbox

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