I came from there just before I met you at Odem. Bahat is the family name. New effort in Ein Zivan with a nice eatery adjacent to De Karina chocolate. One wine is an interesting Cabernet - Sangiovese blend. A bit young. Would be interesting to revisit it in a year. About 5k bottle this year. He intends to grow but to keep it small.

Just checked with the local rabbinate. All wine that has a label indicating rabbinical supervision was ALWAYS kosher. Never in doubt. (Obviously not the wines in the years prior to receiving rabbinic supervision.)

The food establishment/ restaurant had the kashrut removed for about 3 weeks this past summer and is CURRENTLY IN GOOD STANDING.

I recommend a visit. Certainly worth it once you make a visit to De Karina.

OK, I KNOW I will be flamed for this. I asked about this winery because my Rabbi (in Israel) was given a bottle, and given the supervision on the bottle, he is not interested in trying it out! I am sure the winery is indeed kosher and that the winemaker or owner is an honest hard working Jew. Just goes to show that kosher supervision in Israel - is a major pain in the arse and that having a unified and fully accepted body would be best for all.

Perhaps your rabbi in Israel misunderstood - as others did - the poorly written kashrut update of the national rabbinate. It is a multi page sheet and refers to many factories, restaurants, etc. (saw it courtesy of Yossie H) It said the "winery" lost it's kahrut but seems to refer to food items - referring to the restaurant as the winery - much as one would say they has dinner at the winery.

You can tell your rabbi it's all cleared up - the Bahat wines under supervision were never in question. just a poorly worded paragraph by the writer of the national rabbinate newsletter. They must be more careful! He can call up the local Golan rabbinate to confirm.

It seems like there are 2 different issues here: 1. Whether or not there was an issue with the rabbinate supervision. 2. Whether said supervision is adequate. Haredim in Israel and most Orthodox Jews in the U.S. (including all the major supervising agencies) do not rely on rabbinate supervision altogether--we only eat/drink products bearing Bada"tz, Chasam Sofer, etc. Which is why all the major wineries have such supervision and for export, they generally obtain an American supervision (OU/OK), which generally relies on the Israeli supervising agency anyway.

Elie Poltorak wrote: Whether said supervision is adequate. Most Orthodox Jews in the U.S. (including all the major supervising agencies) do not rely on rabbinate supervision altogether--we only eat/drink products bearing Bada"tz, Chasam Sofer, etc.

Elie,

That is absolute nonsense and false. And it is only true for most but not all Haredim. I know plenty of Haredim in the US who rely on the rabbinate when in Israel and those who live in Israel who rely on the mehadrin version of the local Rabbinate supervision in their cities. As far as the kashrut organizations - it is not always the case.

BUT Most importantly - this forum IMHO is no place for any discussions related to trustworthiness of this community of observant Jews or another!!!.That is not only disrespecting other committed Jews, but their rabbis as well. And I will not get into all the problems with Haredi kashrut organizations.

You are free to have your personal standards of kashrut but please DO NOT call into question other kashrut standards in this public forum.

The Golan Heights Rabbinate is trustworthy until you can demonstrate otherwise!

Elie Poltorak wrote: Whether said supervision is adequate. Most Orthodox Jews in the U.S. (including all the major supervising agencies) do not rely on rabbinate supervision altogether--we only eat/drink products bearing Bada"tz, Chasam Sofer, etc.

Elie,

That is absolute nonsense and false. And it is only true for most but not all Haredim. I know plenty of Haredim in the US who rely on the rabbinate when in Israel and those who live in Israel who rely on the mehadrin version of the local Rabbinate supervision in their cities. As far as the kashrut organizations - it is not always the case.

BUT Most importantly - this forum IMHO is no place for any discussions related to trustworthiness of this community of observant Jews or another!!!.That is not only disrespecting other committed Jews, but their rabbis as well. And I will not get into all the problems with Haredi kashrut organizations.

You are free to have your personal standards of kashrut but please DO NOT call into question other kashrut standards in this public forum.

The Golan Heights Rabbinate is trustworthy until you can demonstrate otherwise!

Respectfully,

Yakov

Firstly, no need to flame. We can have this conversation in civil tones.

Secondly, I most certainly did not disrespect or cast doubt on the trustworthiness of any Jew ch"v. Trustworthiness is not the issue. The question is what standards they hold by. For instance, the Rabbinate allows heter mechira, which is not accepted by Haredim. The rabbinate's function is to certify basic kashrus for the wider public--not to adopt stingencies. Thus, those who wish to hold by those stringencies avoid rabanut.

I was referring to basic rabbanut--rabbanut mehadrin is entirely another story and depends on the particular city/rav hamachshir. But that's more akin to Bada"tz than to ordinary rabanut certification.

Anyhow, I was just trying to explain the mixup between you and Raccah. Everyone is entitled to follow their standards and I'm certainly not getting into a discussion of the relative merits of various kashrut organizations.

Whether said supervision is adequate. Haredim in Israel and most Orthodox Jews in the U.S. (including all the major supervising agencies) do not rely on rabbinate supervision altogether--we only eat/drink products bearing Bada"tz, Chasam Sofer, etc. Which is why all the major wineries have such supervision and for export, they generally obtain an American supervision (OU/OK), which generally relies on the Israeli supervising agency anyway.

Elie, a sloppy couple of sentences which became incendiary even if you did not intend them so. Especially the phrase "most Orthodox Jews ... we ... ." My guess is that you are referring to most Orthodox Jews you know, the same way that I would would be referring to only most Orthodox Jews I know when I would say "most Orthodox Jews in the U.S. rely on the Israeli rabbanut supervision." My guess is that your statement about non-Haredi Orthodox is just plain false.

It is easy to admit as a point of fact, though, that there are sufficient numbers of wine drinkers in the Haredi and non-Haredi Orthodox communities to economically warrant getting the various certifications beyond the rabbanut.

I too will chalk up your comments as sloppy as Isaac commented and leave it at that. Just know that it is just as easy to return such comments on "inadequacies" in kind - and then say it was not my intention to call your personal observance into question ch"v - something I do not intend to do on this forum.

It is for this reason that I suggest we all return to discussing wine and leave topics such as these on the side. Innocent comments can be unintentionally offensive as well as misunderstood. And many here do not have adequate information.

Ok totally with you here! So Yakov, do you have any hint of a clue where is that Biton winery that won a terravino medal last month and how can I contact them? He's said to have a marvelous Cabernet Franc.

No no I'm not talking about this thread's Bahat winery but really Biton. A small boutique that nobody had never heard of and that made a sudden coming-out at Terravino last month, they won a gold medal for their Cabernet Franc 2010.

Whether said supervision is adequate. Haredim in Israel and most Orthodox Jews in the U.S. (including all the major supervising agencies) do not rely on rabbinate supervision altogether--we only eat/drink products bearing Bada"tz, Chasam Sofer, etc. Which is why all the major wineries have such supervision and for export, they generally obtain an American supervision (OU/OK), which generally relies on the Israeli supervising agency anyway.

Elie, a sloppy couple of sentences which became incendiary even if you did not intend them so. Especially the phrase "most Orthodox Jews ... we ... ." My guess is that you are referring to most Orthodox Jews you know, the same way that I would would be referring to only most Orthodox Jews I know when I would say "most Orthodox Jews in the U.S. rely on the Israeli rabbanut supervision." My guess is that your statement about non-Haredi Orthodox is just plain false.

It is easy to admit as a point of fact, though, that there are sufficient numbers of wine drinkers in the Haredi and non-Haredi Orthodox communities to economically warrant getting the various certifications beyond the rabbanut.

Nothing sloppy about what I wrote and I stand by my words. I an offering my opinion, with which you are free to disagree. I believe that most Orthodox Jews in the US (not just those I know) look for familiar symbols, such as OU, OK, etc.--not merely Rabbanut. I may be wrong but I certainly don't see what's incendiary about that. I also don't see the problem with using the pronoun "we" when referring to a group I belong to.

You've been fighting each other guys over kashrus back to Rogov days. And yet, nothing changed....

Mentioned Terravino earlier. While being an OIV contest, it plays tricks. They define official awards, whose number is limited (but permitted to be quite high, up to 30% of all submitted samples I think) by the strict OIV rules. Then, they define so called unofficial awards that are not allowed by OIV, but wait, that's why they are published as unofficial. Also, we know that gold medals are given for 85pts (or 86?) wines. Wines winelovers often consider mediocre. This year skipped Terravino Gold tasting, so maybe I'm wrong and all medalists are stars indeed.

This kashrut conversation has been going on for a few days and I must admit that I also find it boring but no worries, we ain't talking kashrut here most of the time.

As to what you are saying about Terravino and their "medals" I totally agree with you as well. However, as Terravino is some sort of professional benefit for me I've attended the event this year and we were all very curious about that Biton winery that won one of the said gold medals. Given that the wine in question is a Cabernet Franc (and yes, it's kosher) and that one of the Masters of Wine who was a jury member awarded it 89 points, it piqued my curiosity.