12/5/2007

UPDATE 1 – 12/7/2007 @ 12:15 AM PST: According to a Houston Chronicle article (linked here), the suspected burglars’ names were Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 48. Police are investigating whether they “were part of a crime ring linked to burglaries and the use of fake immigration documents.” In addition:

“Police found a Puerto Rican identification card on Ortiz. He had two aliases.

Torres had identification cards from Colombia, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. He had three aliases.”

Tonight, Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly reported that both DeJesus and Ortiz were illegal immigrants with criminal records. O’Reilly said DeJesus was from ColumbiaColombia. He served 6 years in a Texas prison on drug charges and had previously been deported. Ortiz was also in the US illegally and had an arrest record on drug charges.

In the past, Houston was a sanctuary city. Its current status is unclear.

Apparently due to changes in castle defense laws it appears that this man may not even be charged. But the magnitude of the crime problem asserted in Houston if true must be staggering. It was asserted that the murder rate in Houston was 2.5 times the per capital rate in NYC.

Worse the mayor and police chief appear to be weak on crime and law enforcement.

The influx of Katrina refugees caused a large spike in the Houston crime rate, especially in serious crime, but the rates are declining. I provided a link to Houston crime statistics here but the linked article has been archived.

The reason I’m unsure about Houston was mentioned in this Deport the Criminals First post on the murder of William Huang. After that case and the Rodney Johnson case, the Houston Police Department announced it had modified its procedures regarding identifying and deporting criminal aliens.

Here’s an interesting quote from Patrick McCann, president of the Harris County Criminal Defense Lawyers Association:

“At the risk of being quoted, I’m not going to weep for those two,” he said of the burglars. “I guess what this comes down to, was this good judgment? No. Was it legal? Probably. Is it something that anyone is going to indict him for? Probably not.

Another Drew, CBS and ABC news among others reports it will go before a Harris Country grand jury. Since that’s the news reporting I’ve seen, I’m assuming it’s true. It may or may not have convened yet. I don’t know. I have no reason to doubt the news reports that it will convene and local police were also quoted as saying it would be presented to a grand jury.

Grand Jury…
Sounds like a bunch of Liberal Weenie wishes to me.
Some people have so divorced themselves from reality, that they just cannot contemplate something that cuts across the grain (see Pauline Kael’s comments on ’72 Presidential Election).

I wonder if this would have made the news if the man who shoot these two thugs had been a black man? I note the Black Panthers and other race hustlers went to Pasadena trying to stir up some trouble and were routed by a large crowd who didn’t see things their way. I guess Texas have had enough of the Jena nonsese and outsiders.

Any bets as to what happens to the buglary rates in Pasadena in the future? My bet is that it will drop off the scale while cities like NYC and other leftwingnut bastions see their crime rates tick up. One only need look at Detroit, WQashingto, St Louis, New Orleans and Cleveland to see what happens when liberals run the police.

“I wonder if this would have made the news if the man who shoot these two thugs had been a black man?”

It wouldn’t have added a racial dynamic for the Black Panthers to seize upon (I for one have seen no evidence of racism in Horn’s actions), but yes, I’m sure it would have made the news. It was a pretty dramatic tape, what with the threats to kill the burglars, the dispatcher urging Horn not to do so, the whole “shotgun clicking” verbalized and on audio thing, and then the “Move, you’re dead!” BOOM, etc. Plus now a controversy over whether he’s broken any law in Texas and what exactly the laws are.

In my view justice has already been served. All that is left is the Legal system arguments about it.

Had these two not been illegally in the country, not been robbing this house, then the shooting would not have occurred. Give the man a medal, a new box of shells and send a clear message to criminals that his actions are going to be viewed in the best possible light by the legal system. Maybe our crime rates would go down if criminals knew that their actions would have serious consequences for them.

“An armed society is a polite society.” Once we resume defending our own safety, liberty and property, crimes such as these will fall off. Had there been an armed citizenry in the Mall in Omaha yesterday, there would have been fewer dead and injured.

Years ago I was told by a Houston Cop that the happiest they ever see a burlar is when they confront him in a persons house as he is being held by the shotgun wielding owner.
Usually, the Cop said, the first thing a burlar says is, “Man, I’m glad you got here.”

So, all you PC types. These guys were black mexican illegal aliens. Does that make them “undocumented african-american workers”? But they apparently didn’t have jobs, and they were criminals, so is it “Undocumented african-meximerican disadvantaged workers”? What if they were working, but their jobs moved overseas, then “undocumented displaced disadvantaged unfortunate worker of african-non-american descent”

I bet the PC troops out there are doing all kinds of verbal gymnastics on this one.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5355866.html
“As my colleagues Matt Stiles and Mike Glenn reported in October, the rate of all violent crimes — murders, rapes, aggravated assaults and robberies — decreased 20 percent from 1990 to 2006. The drop in the nonviolent crime rate, such as burglaries, thefts and stolen vehicles, is even more dramatic: about 42 percent. ”

Maybe Texas should modify its castle law to read “if the texas resident doesn’t get an in person response to a 911 call within six minutes they are authorized to execute any person regardless of the nature of the crime and/or absence of imminent danger”
Rename it the Horn Law.

Paul from fl — Nebraska has a modern, mainstream, commonsense “shall issue” carry law; it’s of very recent vintage (I think they passed it last year, although it may have been late 2005). Such laws are good things, of course, but they’re not panaceas, and multiple-victim public shootings have happened, and likely will happen again, in states that aren’t largely victim disarmament zones.

There are a lot of blacks that live in the coastal areas of Colombia.
Check out their national soccer team if you doubt me. Their team is about 60% black.
Ther are a few black mexicans from the Vera Cruz area.
You’ll see lots of black Dominicans as well.
All with hispanic names.

Well, as an illegal immigrant, I should let you know I am part of a Bolivian cartel, and an active member of Al-Qaeda. I may seem uneducated, and pick strawberries for a living, but I assure you, we’re all out to get you.

“As my colleagues Matt Stiles and Mike Glenn reported in October, the rate of all violent crimes — murders, rapes, aggravated assaults and robberies — decreased 20 percent from 1990 to 2006. The drop in the nonviolent crime rate, such as burglaries, thefts and stolen vehicles, is even more dramatic: about 42 percent. ”

“Undocumented african-nonamerican other than mexican disadvantaged non-workers”
Thanks for clarifying.

Regarding “justice”, the gov’t failed to keep these non-citizen criminals out of Joe’s gunsights (ok, probably just a bead). If their fingerprints are in the house, they are sprawled out dead with home electronics near them, then yes, justice was served. A man’s home is his castle, and that includes house-sitting.

The media interviewed the sister of one of them. She complained that they were bad, but didn’t deserve to die. She should be checked out herself. Is she here legally, and if so, did she aid and abet her criminal brother, helping him violate Federal laws. If so, deport her.

Once more, your facts are wrong. He wasn’t “house-sitting”. But repeatedly getting facts wrong doesn’t cause you to question your judgment at all. You feel perfectly justified in unnecessarily blowing these men away rather than letting them get arrested.

Joe Horn wanted to kill them. And he did. He says he feels terrible. And he should.

That’s a start. I’ll make you into a defense attorney yet. Those guys are gone and now it’s “The People vs. Horn”. The same People who passed a law that allows all of them, not just him, to use deadly force in certain cases in order to protect property. To kill. We might not like their law, I see that you do not, but …?

Trials are really about good guys (the people) vs. bad guys (the defendants). And by defining the defendant as a bad guy the people thus define themselves as good guys. Because what else they might have done in their lives, they did not do what he did.

Christoph, you say my fact are wrong, as if the difference between a mexican or an columbian illegal makes this any less a failure of border enforcement. This is typical liberal dishonesty. It won’t pass for a lie in court, but anyone can see it for the BS that it is.

His neighbor asked him to watch his house. That is house-sitting, as it was right next door. You are wrong. You are also wrong in thinking that by quibbling away at minor details you can obfuscate the main points. You sound like a lawyer trying to manipulate an ignorant jury.

I love your logic, so when we see a neighbor’s house burning we should just sit around and wait?

Good to hear such non judgemental claptrap that these scum were after all humans. I wonder what standards Hitler, Stalkin and their henchmen are to be judged by, that they too were human?

I believe the readers here all know Christoph has locks on his house to insure huumans don’t get in, and rest assured if his interests were threatened he wouldn’t give a damn if the aggressors/criminals were the Keebler Elves or humans.

Just for the record DRJ, Pasadena and Houston are separate legal entities. So Houston’s sanctuary status is not necessarily pertinent to this specific case. (Not that I want to see said status continue.)

nk, I’m not at all sure that I’d want to make Horn a bad guy here, but I do think he showed remarkably bad judgment.

As to whether or not he broke Texas law, I dunno (in practice, in my own Minnesota, it would depend on what county it happened in and how good his story and/or lawyer was) but I would rather that if my neighbor’s (unoccupied at the moment) house is being broken into, and the cops are on their way, I’d very much rather another neighbor of mine not go out with a shotgun and confront them.

Among other reasons, he might miss and hit me or a member of my family.

Listen to what IS on the tape and ask yourself whether that makes a damn bit of sense, Steverino.

Not in a position where I can listen to anything here. If you’ll stop being so condescending, why don’t you tell us all what’s on the tape during that time interval that contradicts the assertion that Horn’s neighbor asked him to look after his house?

Christoph…
“Joe Horn wanted to kill them. And he did. He says he feels terrible. And he should.”

I disagree (I know, that’s no surprise). I don’t think I “wanted” to kill them, he just knew that he was willing to if they presented a risk to him.

There is a difference.

As one who occassionally has the requirement to strap-on a weapon, I do so knowing that if something goes terribly wrong, I will defend myself even if that means that someone who is a threat to me must die.

Don’t indict a man to a life in purgatory just because he is not as articulate as you might prefer. Please!

I guess your one of those folks who’d rather see yellow outlines on the ground and the cops saying “move along nothing to see here.”

Glad I’m not your neighbor. And remind if you’re ever my neighbor and I see a fire at your house to do nothing to stop it, I’ll just call the fire department. And if I see you’re kids getting beaten up I’ll ignore it and call the cops.

You sound just like the neighbor of Kitty Genovesee, only they never bothered to call the cops.

Christoph – As several others have asked you, what is said on the tape that contradicts Horn’s statement that his neighbor asked him to watch their house while they were gone? You keep telling people to listen to the tape. Please, tell us what we are missing here.

The only way the tape would be relevant is if Horn specifically states on it that his neighbor didn’t ask him to watch the house.

Like others above, I doubt the subject ever came up on a 9-11 call.

I said it before, the tape isn’t the entire body of facts of this case.

Where I used to live, my neighbor and I had a standing agreement to watch each other’s house when we were away. It’s not a stretch of the imagination to believe that Horn and his neighbor had the same deal.

JD, I’m not a transcription service. I’ve conveniently linked to the tape as well as delineated the exact 12 seconds of the tape. I don’t know what more you want me to do. Call you on the phone and let you listen to it through my speakers?

Before I talk about in a general sense what he said, understand his lawyer has not advanced any notion Horn was asked to watch the house — which would clearly be relevant under the statute as I mentioned above — and no one has reported he was asked by the neighbors to look after the house.

From DRJ’s previous post source courtesy of the incomplete CBS transcript (hence, listen to the original):

Horn told the dispatcher that he doesn’t know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. “I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well,” he said.

While anything is theoretically possible and perhaps the neighbors will suddenly testify they asked Horn to look after their house, I’ve listened to the complete tape. Nothing would lead any reasonable person to believe they asked him.

Therefore I conclude Mr. Obvious is once again careless with his alleged facts†, which are actually important, and this undercuts any valid points he might have.

So any defending third party property defense will have to be under § 9.43 (1) as nk stated or under general self-defense provisions. See nk’s comment here for his take on how wise it was to mention this whole lunging thing when it would be (or would have been) easier to defend Mr. Horn legally under the third party property theory.

I do not know my next door neighbor’s all that well, and they have keys to my home, and know my alarm code, and vice versa. But we routinely watch each other’s house when we are away from home for any length of time.

Did he say somewhere in that complete tape that he was not asked to watch their house? Because unless he said that somewhere, I fail to see how your listening to the complete tape matters even one iota.

Then you’re a bit dense, JD. He said he didn’t know these neighbors reducing significantly the odds they asked him to look after their house. By contrast, he said he knew the neighbors on the other side quite well and further said if it was them he would already have done something about it, indicating he felt he had a duty to protect their property, something specifically mentioned in the statute. This is more than an iota.

Look, I know when you have almost a predetermined outcome — old guy guns down two Texans — you lose some of your judgment… and it shows.

“But we routinely watch each other’s house when we are away from home for any length of time.”

Since he talked to the dispatcher for 6.5 minutes and was talking about knowing one neighbor well enough to act quickly, but not the other neighbor… reasonably, it makes sense he would have mentioned such a proactive duty of care to his neighbor if he had assumed it.

In the end, it’s moot. He would have to establish this element as part of his defense if he uses it. He hasn’t done so and my point is Mr. Obvious asserts he has with exactly zero evidence: Obivious’s “fact” still reaks from fecal matter based on which orifice Mr. Obvious got it from.

And you’re a bit condescending, Christoph. In your prior comment you quoted it as “he doesn’t know them well”. Now, “he doesn’t know them”. Those are 2 vastly different situations. Again, I don’t know my next door neighbors well, but that does not mean I do not know them. Is it possible for you to be civil to anyone? Hell, I am a generally curmudgeonly kind of fellow, and even when I agree with you, I find you offputting.

I haven’t heard that, Mr. Obvious, and if you have any kind of reference for that, I’d be interested. I agree with nk when he says there may be justification for using deadly force to stop fleeing suspects per § 9.43 (1). The problem to my mind remains twofold:

1. He announced once specifically and also repeatedly strongly implied he was going out there to kill the suspects. He had an obligation to try coercion or less than lethal force first if reasonably safe and effective to do so and I believe with a shotgun such an attempt at least is reasonable. “Move, you’re dead!” BOOM was, I believe, cover for the killing he’d already decided on.
2. His lunging statement. If they were lunging at him, they probably weren’t fleeing. So he has to use a self-defense defense. Which is fine if it really was self-defense, but his statements before leaving the house lead me to disbelieve him.

Fortunately for Mr. Horn, to convict him in most states, you would have to prove they did NOT lunge at him.

I don’t recall where I saw it first, but it was the raw footage and the fox footage together in one article.

But when push comes to shove, I don’t need my buddy 3 houses down to ask me to watch his place, if someone was crawling out his window, I would stop them. I may even say, “stop, don’t come at me, oh no, stop” before I started putting buckshot in them.

Numero uno, if you kill all illegal immigrants then you’ll have quite a bit of blood on your hands. Secondly Horn shot them in the back, which means they were not a threat if they were running away, it also show cowardice.
The US laws are too weak on criminals which is the reason, the criminals keep coming back. We need to strenghten our laws against criminals, yes,even illegal immigrants. Send them to some terroist camp like Quatomoma Bay or something like we do the other terrorist.

I am officially an ex liberal.Should Joe Horn have shot them? Probably not. Was it legal, maybe maybe not. The two men who broke into Horns’ neighbors house had a long history of breaking a multitude of laws, including all kinds of fake documents,plus one had a string of eligit children. Nice.
They were probably not going to commit this crime, take the $2000, and repent either. Joe Horn did all of us, including uptanding illegal aliens, a favor. He saved us the cost of a trial, the cost of incarceration roughly $25,000 per inmate per year, the cost of deporting them, and the cost of rearresting them when they tried to get back into the country after deportation.
Turns out they were well worth killing. Maybe 8 people will miss the repeat offenders. Deep down the rest of are glad we don’t have to worry about those two coming to our house.

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