You're probably right, it would drive they're sales up not down. Even so, its still their right as owners of the material to decide where and when its used. In the truest sense it is stealing, its just that the stealing in this case would be a good thing

You can't call it stealing either. Stealing generally implies that one part loses something which was rightfully theirs. Software doesn't share the property of, for example, wallets, which tend to disappear from the owner when taken. I'm not stating that it is okay to copy all software, but under no circumstances should it qualify as stealing.

Its totally different with software. If you copy some program, you have the real thing. The one you would have paid for.

But lyrics or tabs? You cant buy em. Its more like a script of a movie... stuff which is interesting if you didnt understood what was said... which implies that you already watched it (or listened to it if you apply that to music).

Ima bit confused by the terminology here. when you say "tabs" what do you mean, chord progressions?

If so then, at least in the US, there are print publshers who publish such things and the song writers get a royalty for each one sold.

Reproducing text or music that someone else has created without ther permission *is* copyright vioaltion and *is* stealing.

The idea that there si no harm because a new copy is created is absolutely bogus. You all write software, if someone took one of Cas's games and made it usable without payign him, sin't *that* stealing? Same rules/theory applies.

When you say making a copy of intelelctual property is not stealing , what you are saying is that the act of acquiring a copy has no value. And if it has no value, there is no viable way for an artist to make a living through the production of the original.

Copyright law isn't just an arbitrary act of greed, it was created to make the creation of intellectual mproeprty possible within a capitalist society.

Thats the reality.

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Its about tabs *and* lyrics. If you can actually buy those tabs... alright. But lyrics? (Once upon a time you got those together with the data carrier.)

Say I make some adventure game.. and someone puts some walkthrough online with dialog-trees. Those lines of text are all mine and I could sue em, but what would I gain from doing so? There is a really big difference between that and distributing the full game.

What Jeff said, however in Denmark there IS a difference between stealing (ie. removing something, so that owner does not have it any more) and the act of copying. Different laws and punishements are applied.

Ima bit confused by the terminology here. when you say "tabs" what do you mean, chord progressions?

Yes, tablatures are a way of writing chords, and more specifically, graphical symbols showing how to play these chords on (usually) a guitar: where to put your index finger, your middle finger, which strings play, which to mute etc.

The music market is difficult enough as it is, which is very easy to forget if you only watch MTV, and I feel it's a good thing to try to protect copyright law here. Spreading unauthorized tablatures is generally the same thing as 'warez'. As for stopping these sites being smart or stupid is a matter of debate. Maybe Robbie Williams or Madonna might not give a damn, but maybe others do. Maybe they're trying to get something together to serve legal, payed for tablatures downloads, like the legal mp3 sites that pop up here and there. Those illegal sites *stole* that opportunity away.

Its about tabs *and* lyrics. If you can actually buy those tabs... alright. But lyrics? (Once upon a time you got those together with the data carrier.)

Say I make some adventure game.. and someone puts some walkthrough online with dialog-trees. Those lines of text are all mine and I could sue em, but what would I gain from doing so? There is a really big difference between that and distributing the full game.

What Jeff said, however in Denmark there IS a difference between stealing (ie. removing something, so that owner does not have it any more) and the act of copying. Different laws and punishements are applied.

I don't think 'stealing' is used as a legal term here, but more as just a means to make a point.

Its about tabs *and* lyrics. If you can actually buy those tabs... alright. But lyrics?

its called poetry my man and is as valid and original an artistic expression as anything else.

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Say I make some adventure game.. and someone puts some walkthrough online with dialog-trees. Those lines of text are all mine and I could sue em, but what would I gain from doing so? There is a really big difference between that and distributing the full game.

Yes you could. And if you felt it was injuring your economic position vis a vis the game then you probably should.

OTOH if you felt it was helping your sales then you might want to either ignore it OR contact them and offer them the proper rights to do what they are doing.

As Erik says, the key is it is the creator's call, not yours as the copier. And that is how it should be.

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Now to take it a step further.. do I have the right to write down what I hear? As a means of recording or assisting my personal memory? If the answer is yes, then I imagine it is only okay so long as I don't sell copies of that "recording" or even make it available for free, since that might cut in on someone else's profits (who does have a right to sell it). I suppose in the case of keeping a personal record of the lyrics I hear that would constitute "fair use" under copyright law - but IANAL.

Now let's say someone asks me what I heard. Can I tell them? Can I write them a note to give them my answer? Can I just post the answer on a web page so if they ask the question they will find my answer?

Its about tabs *and* lyrics. If you can actually buy those tabs... alright. But lyrics?

its called poetry my man and is as valid and original an artistic expression as anything else.

I know. Copyright laws are good stuff. We all know that.

Show me where you can _buy_[1] all kinds of lyrics[2] and then I can understand why there is a reason to do something against lyric-pages. My posts are about reasons to do so, because I cant even think of one.

[1 Some ad-powered page from the label would count, too.]

[2 As I said the times where you could find lyrics in the booklet are over... they rather save a few cents there, which is somewhat funny considering that the MI said at the beginning of the CD-ara that CDs are only that expensive, because its oh-so-cutting-the-edge technology... years passed and producing CDs is really cheap now and yet there wasnt a price drop.]

IMO they are just shooting themselfes in the foot (again). (Well, doesnt seem to matter anyways... the MI is making more money each year regadless how much they cry about theoretical-worst-case-scenario losses.)

And back to that game example. A walkthrough (or better thousands of em) would help my game a lot, because it a) makes it accessible for a very broad range of people, b) it would push my page rank, c) it would push the value of the name (because its on more sites), d) it would slightly increased visibility. Thats all very neat stuff... for free

And as I said the value of a CD is higher if there are lyrics available. If your first language is english and you're only listening to english music, you'll have some blind spot there. Just think about it... if you can get ahold of some lyrics (eventually with translation) the CD magically becomes way more valuable, because it helps you to understand it better and/or helps you learning complete sentences (which is very effective for learning a new language, because your brain gets more associations to work with - needless to say that some melody is another association, which helps you remembering it).

Its added value and its just plain stupid to take that away.

Sure they should benefit from that, but they were years too late. Therefore they should try some smooth transition (by building *the* resource in the net and by only suing people who publish new lyrics). Nuking everything and replacing it with last year's chart "lyrics" wont cut the cheese.

Just ignore the MI whining in protest. It's not like they are going to sue YOU Or if you are really mad... seed a few torrents full of lyrics

The worst part is how little of the money actually gets to the artist in the first place. The internet should have changed that... but unfortunately the big labels won't let online distributors have their songs unless they shut out the little guys. I.e. with iTunes Music store, the bands shouldn't need record labels at all anymore... make the MP3s and upload them to Apple... let Steve jobs take a couple pennies of that $0.99 and have the rest go straight to the artist. If done right ANYONE should be able to get a song on the iTunes music store and have the downloads credited to their PayPal account or similar. But the iTunes Music Store (and others) can't do that .. if they did.. the labels wouldn't let them have anything.

I think it's fair enough to expect to get paid for sheet music. I have bought arrangements for the piano. No complaints there. However I would like a copy of the lyrics when I buy the CD and feel it's a bit mean when there's no booklet with them provided.

This clampdown seems a touch counterproductive as I usually search for lyrics when:1) I have the CD, but no lyrics2) I've heard the song somewhere I would like to buy it, but don't know the artist/song title.

The music industry has got into the habit of criminalising its customers, while at the same time attempting to install legally dubious copyright protection software on users PCs, sometimes without permission. This latter practice is actually making me hestitate before buying CDs these days, as I often play them in my PC CD player (with headphones), but don't want my PC borked. I understand the internet facilitates widespread copyright theft, but question their business model.

I think it's fair enough to expect to get paid for sheet music. I have bought arrangements for the piano. No complaints there. However I would like a copy of the lyrics when I buy the CD and feel it's a bit mean when there's no booklet with them provided.

Well then don't buy the album if not having the lyrics reduces its value to you below the asking price.

Thats how pricing works. if you are still buying the album then you are telling them that in fact they are correct in seperating them as they have indvidual value.

I prefer albums with lyrics sheets myself. But if I want them and they arent included, I sit down with mycd play anda finger on the pause key and transcribe them myself.

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This clampdown seems a touch counterproductive as I usually search for lyrics when:1) I have the CD, but no lyrics

You have them, just not in the form most convenient to you.

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2) I've heard the song somewhere I would like to buy it, but don't know the artist/song title.

Generally searching on the words in teh chorus will lead you to most songs.

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The music industry has got into the habit of criminalising its customers,

While at the same time the custoerms are gettign more and mreo into the habit of beign criminals, as all this rationalization just goes to show.

I agree that an industry that fights with its own customers can't survive in the long run and in *that* regard I think the music industry has to either find new workable models or die. But I also think there is a big difference between customers who are doing things the industry dislikes and people who are outright abusing and cheating the content providers. I consider TSR suing their customers over posting their own modules on the web the former, I consider college students making one CD available to hundreds of listeners the latter.

And the fact of the matter is that the latter are still a very vocal minority of the customer base. ENough to concern the industry, but still a minority.

In general, Copyright exists to make industries based around IP possible. If it fails, so do all those industries.

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This latter practice is actually making me hestitate before buying CDs these days, as I often play them in my PC CD player (with headphones), but don't want my PC borked. I understand the internet facilitates widespread copyright theft, but question their business model.

Irellevent to our disucssion really EXCEPT that you yourself have just illustrated my first point-- when the provider drops the value to the consumer below the asked for price, the market generally corrects itself.

Thats sort of the point of a free market economy.

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The worst part is how little of the money actually gets to the artist in the first place. The internet should have changed that... but unfortunately the big labels won't let online distributors have their songs unless they shut out the little guys.

I think there is more to it then that, personally.

Look at our own examples of independant net based distribution. Puppy Games and Oddlabs. Both rpoduce superb, award winning product. Both I assume are still struggling and making nowhere near the (gross) money even a mediocre game from EA pulls in.

Distribution still has value. It gets the product in front of the customer. It creates advertising around the product to help differentiate it from the scores of other products all fighting for attention from that same consumer.

Anyway thats MHO.

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I said all kinds of lyrics (that tiny selection is completely uninteresting) and please dont alter my words and put my name on it, thanks.

The point is that there IS an existing industry of publishing those lyrics. Whether an artist choses to publish their lyrics is their right to decide. If those lyrics *are* published it is their right to chose who, how and for what compensation.

Until the copyright expires. Then its public domain.

(And don't ask me to defend the recent extensions of corporate copyright, other waise known as the "Sonny Bono Mickey Mouse Protection Act" because I won't. IMHO that was a travesty.)

As for the second, AFAIK all I did was put quotes around the significant parts of your words. If any got chnaged then I apologize but I am not aware of any changes.

JK

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Well, here is one of the more rare times when I disagree with Jeff. I think that the record labels coming after sites for posting the words to a song is just awful. Now, if those sites are charging visitors for this, that's one thing, but for sites that just post the words to a song that you still go out and buy, totally different.. As well, if there was sheet music that accompanied the lyrics, it would be wrong. But the WORDS? Total crap and an abuse of the music association's position.

Show me how the lyrics, just the lyrics, being posted damages sales. ONE SOLID example. I can't think of a one.

-Chris

EDIT: I should also add that if the use of those lyrics is for a monetary gain for anyone other than the artist, then, again, it is a different issue. But posting them so listeners can sing along with tunes they purchased? COME ON!

Well, here is one of the more rare times when I disagree with Jeff. I think that the record labels coming after sites for posting the words to a song is just awful. Now, if those sites are charging visitors for this, that's one thing, but for sites that just post the words to a song that you still go out and buy, totally different..

Chris,

What about the lyrics book you might have bought?

Are you saying that poetry has no value, only music? I can think of a great many peopel in the history of literature that woudl disagree.

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Show me how the lyrics, just the lyrics, being posted damages sales. ONE SOLID example. I can't think of a one.

I just showed you. Click the amazon link I posted above.

JK

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Hardly the point anyway is it. All the artistic content of the music is owned by these people. Whether its just or not isn't the issue. Whether its logical or sensible isn't the issue. The content that is given away on these web sites (whether for free or not) is not theirs to give.

>The point is that there IS an existing industry of publishing those lyrics.

Yes, and it covers about 0.00001% of the stuff you can find in the evil internet. Unfortunatelly its that part which doesnt interest me at all.

>As for the second, AFAIK all I did was put quotes around the significant parts of your words. If any got>chnaged then I apologize but I am not aware of any changes.

You cut of some part of the sentence without indicating it with [...] and thus you altered the meaning slightly (to something I wouldnt have said).

@kev

>All the artistic content of the music is owned by these people.

We all know that.

>Whether its logical or sensible isn't the issue.

It *so* is the issue and I'm free to vent my anger about it. I think its benefitical for everyone if you bitch (=bad image) about bad practises of some company/industry/whatever and if you praise thinks like good customer support (=good image).

A single opinion doesnt change much... its the sum of those opinions, which makes em more or less successful.

IMHO if someone sits down and transcribes the music themselves and offers it for free then there is np.This person just might get everything right but in comparison to the professional it will only be guessing.The pro gets his stuff from the source and that costs money which in turn the pro intends on getting from the customers who buy the 'real thing'.

@Jeff:While you have your opinions... but calling Britney Spears' music 'poetry'...no way man, no way!!

It *so* is the issue and I'm free to vent my anger about it. I think its benefitical for everyone if you bitch (=bad image) about bad practises of some company/industry/whatever and if you praise thinks like good customer support (=good image).

A single opinion doesnt change much... its the sum of those opinions, which makes em more or less successful.

That may be the issue you want to talk about, which of course you're welcome to do. Personally, I couldn't give a flying ferret what they do, but then I'm a white male between 20 and 30 with X amount of disposable income so I don't get a say any more (something random I feel like discussing )

I thought the issue of that started the thread was whether this was "stealing" or not. Which, without a doubt, it so blatently is.

Personally, I feel there is way too much bitching in the world where people will either come down for the pop culture side (oh no, the record companies are bad man!) or the self-oriented side (oh no, I'm going to have pay for something that I felt I could legitimately steal before!). I'm not saying that the case here, and on this particular topic, I couldn't give a stuff. I've bought plenty of TAB before and have never downloaded any.

Well then don't buy the album if not having the lyrics reduces its value to you below the asking price.

Shrink-wrap & a no-returns policy makes that rather difficult However I'm more likely to buy the artist's next CD, if I enjoyed the last one, and having the lyrics is definitely part of that for me. So I am voting with my feet to some extent.

Incidentally, I do buy less CDs these days, but that is more because of having a large existing collection and an aging taste in music.

@Kev - I don't think that there's any doubt that the lyrics are their IP & they have the right to have unlicenced sites taken down. It's just that it seems counterproductive. As I do buy my music legally, I'd stop bitching, if all CDs came with lyrics - but they don't. The good news is that often artists with decent lyrics often do get them included. I'm always so pleased when thats the case

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