From a kick off ball goes 'in goal' and defender is required to ground or make dead with delay. Have any of us ever applied this?

Does the same apply for the ball kicked 'in goal' in open play, where the defender has the opportunity to ground or make dead. TV rugby doesn't help as in all scenarios the defenders always seem to wait until the approaching players are within a few feet before grounding.

For my stance, I always let the defenders do whatever. Is this a case of a law that's never applied?

Just interested.

Keep whistling

Padster

16-10-07, 13:10

The defender from a kick off is not required to ground or make dead without delay. If they do so without delay then they have the option of having a scrum back or the kick retaken- Law 13.9 Any other action means they have elected to take the option of playing on.

If it is open play then the option is to play on or if the defender grounds it a 22 drop out.

PaulDG

16-10-07, 14:10

Does the same apply for the ball kicked 'in goal' in open play, where the defender has the opportunity to ground or make dead. TV rugby doesn't help as in all scenarios the defenders always seem to wait until the approaching players are within a few feet before grounding.

It's one of those occasions where TV rugby is correct. In open play, how the ball got into the in-goal is all that matters, not how long the defender takes to decide what the best tactical option is.

Simon Thomas

16-10-07, 14:10

jerkyboybrit - the 'without delay grounding' from a kick off or re-start (kick off or 22m drop out) gets the benefit of a scrum back option as Andy Gomersall discovered to his cost the other day ! |If not he is deemed to have played on, and so restricted to a later grounding and 22m drop out or taking ball back into play.

If kicked in-goal from open play, a defensive grounding is a 22m drop out only, so the defender will take his time to 'bring on' an attacker as well as give his team-mates time to get back ready for the drop-out.

These different Laws should be applied, and are both on TV and at Community levels.

I would mark down a missed without delay grounding and scrum back option not offered, and raise it if I was assessing a referee.

PeterH

16-10-07, 19:10

Quick question here - I assume the delay is on the player "carrying out the grounding" - whether the ball has stopped moving is irrelevant?
So - a player in goal and next to the ball must ground immediately - but is a player allowed to run to the ball and then ground it?

didds

16-10-07, 20:10

if he didn;t run to it what else is he supposed to do?

didds

PeterH

16-10-07, 21:10

lol I mean the immediate bit...

I assume if he runs to it and grounds it - that is immediate?

David J.

16-10-07, 21:10

A player can take all the time he wants, until he touches the ball. Then he must ground it immediately.

PeterH

16-10-07, 21:10

Thankyou

David J.

16-10-07, 21:10

Just want to check my understanding...

1) If the opponent kicks, carries, or otherwise makes the ball go into the in goal (except for a knock on or throw forward or a "held up") and a defender grounds it or otherwise makes it dead there, there will ALWAYS be AT LEAST a drop out.

I had a referee call that incorrectly a few months ago when the full back didn't clearly ground it at first. He did it clearly a few seconds later after there was no whistle. We lost the option of a scrum back, sure, but should have at least gotten a drop out, instead it was a defending 5m scrum! How does a captain who knows the laws better than the referee supposed to react?

Back to checking my understanding...

2) If a team, in general play, kicks the ball through the opponents in-goal, there's an option of a scrum up.

3) If a team, at a kick off, kicks the ball into the in-goal and it is made dead without delay, there is an option of a scrum center or rekick.

4) If a team knocks on or throws forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the in goal, 5m scrum defending.

5) If the ball is held up in goal, regardless of who took it in, it's a 5m scrum attacking.

Does that cover it?

SimonSmith

16-10-07, 21:10

Yep. Can't see why it's "at least" a drop out. What are the alternatives....

OB..

16-10-07, 22:10

How does a captain who knows the laws better than the referee supposed to react?
By discussing it quietly after the game. After all, he might be wrong ...

PaulDG

16-10-07, 22:10

I had a referee call that incorrectly a few months ago when the full back didn't clearly ground it at first. He did it clearly a few seconds later after there was no whistle. We lost the option of a scrum back, sure, but should have at least gotten a drop out, instead it was a defending 5m scrum! How does a captain who knows the laws better than the referee supposed to react?

He's supposed to deal with the fact that although referees can make mistakes too, at least unlike almost everyone on his team, we're not actually trying to cheat.

2) If a team, in general play, kicks the ball through the opponents in-goal, there's an option of a scrum up.

3) If a team, at a kick off, kicks the ball into the in-goal and it is made dead without delay, there is an option of a scrum center or rekick.

4) If a team knocks on or throws forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the in goal, 5m scrum defending.

5) If the ball is held up in goal, regardless of who took it in, it's a 5m scrum attacking.

Does that cover it?

Yep. Though for point 4 there's an argument that if advantage was being played the defenders might end up with a 22.

David J.

16-10-07, 22:10

He's supposed to deal with the fact that although referees can make mistakes too, at least unlike almost everyone on his team, we're not actually trying to cheat.

Do many referees here feel like most of the players on the pitch are trying to cheat? That's not the view I have.

Yep. Though for point 4 there's an argument that if advantage was being played the defenders might end up with a 22.

I know that argument and I don't agree with it.

Simon Griffiths

16-10-07, 23:10

I'm undecided as to my view on 4 (couldn't give a hoot whether it's a 22 or scrum), but the Laws are decided, and very clear. 5m scrum it is (or further out if he knocked it on that much!).

Gareth-Lee Smith

16-10-07, 23:10

Try given, no doubt.

Oh, is that not the point of debate?

Dixie

17-10-07, 09:10

Do many referees here feel like most of the players on the pitch are trying to cheat? That's not the view I have.

Depends how you define cheat. We deal with the following in pretty much every match:

Rucks: Players slowing down the ball by falling on the wrong side; hands in the ruck; pillars and guards standing offside; failure to bind; grabbing the half-back

Mauls: Collapsing a driving maul; entering the side to negate an opposition advantage; lack of a full-arm bind to facilitate a fast get-away.

Open play: blind winger deliberately stealing a yard for a box kick; high tackle when a dangerous strike runner is moving out of low tackle range.

In almost all cases, these are deliberate actions that risk a penalty, taken to gain an advantage over the opposition. If that constitutes cheating, then I think that almost all players actively look for ways to cheat.

Simon Thomas

17-10-07, 10:10

Do many referees here feel like most of the players on the pitch are trying to cheat? That's not the view I have.

Dixie lists a lot of potential 'cheat' areas.

Certainly at London League levels (5-8) and Hampshire 1 and 2 (9 and 10) flankers will slip binds, backs step up offside if ref's back is turned, scrum half dig / pull / trip, etc etc.

I spent 30 years doing it as a player, and we would always 'play the referee' to see what we could get away with.

These days it appears to be tackle and ruck areas where most cheating goes on, with brdging / sealing, blocking, sentinels, etc.

Gareth-Lee Smith

17-10-07, 12:10

Agree with ST using my limited experience.

First 2nd team game on Saturday, and when I pinged the hooker for foot-up in the scrum he said to me "I wondered when you were going to stop me from doing that"

PeterH

17-10-07, 12:10

Players - generally
don't see what they do as cheating - they regard it as pushing the envelope - every coach tries to work out moves that will fox the oppo and to some extent this deception is borderline sometimes...

It's what the oppo do - cheating!! :chin:

Most "cheats" will accept it when they get pinged - they are testing the ref to a large extent...

I was always told - the ref will draw a line in the sand at each area of the game - your job is to put your toe over that line and keep shuffling - if he pings you - bring it back a fraction

The key is management - the better players know what they are doing - and also what you are doing ... sometimes there is more than one game going on after you blow the whistle :)

SimonSmith

17-10-07, 12:10

Not as much in America, no.

Like ST, when I was refereeing in the UK I spent most of time being a policeman and in a constant battle of wits. Mentally draining.

In America I find a different set of challenges, and most of the players - particularly at lower levels - don't try to cheat as much. They may do so by accident, but the constant probing of the back foot or offside line doesn't happen as much.

PaulDG

17-10-07, 14:10

I'm undecided as to my view on 4 (couldn't give a hoot whether it's a 22 or scrum), but the Laws are decided, and very clear. 5m scrum it is (or further out if he knocked it on that much!).

Even if you were playing advantage from the knock on and called advantage over before the ball was made dead?

Deeps

18-10-07, 01:10

Not as much in America, no.

Like ST, when I was refereeing in the UK I spent most of time being a policeman and in a constant battle of wits. Mentally draining.

In America I find a different set of challenges, and most of the players - particularly at lower levels - don't try to cheat as much. They may do so by accident, but the constant probing of the back foot or offside line doesn't happen as much.

In a high level college game today in the New Forest I saw a lot of this envelope pushing. The trouble was that the constant infringing upset the continuity of the game until I had had enough and sent a player (the wrong one as it happened) into the bin to cool off. It had the desired effect though and the game flowed much better after that. The sad thing is that these lads are coming to the peak of their fitness and ability as players and don't need to push it that far when their own considerable talents and skill are good enough.

The poor sod I binned, not only had he the discipline and good grace not to complain that I had sent him off by mistake but as soon as his time was served he was immediately substituted; not a happy bunny. I sought him out afterwards, shook his hand and apologised, he didn't mind too much.

As Simon notes, the envelope pushing can be mentally wearing and then add the whinging and whining as well. By contrast I called a game last Saturday with one of the two teams, well known for its discipline, had two penalties only called against them in the whole 80 minutes and a skipper with whom it was a pleasure to do business with. Faith restored, if only briefly.