I can also say lot of stuff about lot of things and sound very knowledgeable & intellectual. However, I prefer to stick to one point at a time. "Arjun got disturbed when Karna was acclaimed" was NOT one of them.

You repeated same defense. Comparing exception with norm. Hopefully the explanation below should be last.

Again, you are generalizing and making Islam too monotheistic which it isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker

"Killing infidel" - a NORM which every muslim is aware of, has read, understood, absorbed etc. repeatedly since childhood from the book of peace.

Really how many Christians were killed for religious reason after formation of Turkish republic

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker

"Putting molten lead in the ears of shudras" - an EXCEPTION. Here’s how: As you might have guessed, I am an "extremist" Hindu. FIRST TIME I heard about Manusmriti was when I was in my 20s. I saw it mentioned in an Internet forum and in the exact same context where a peaceful was "balancing" ROP against the evil caste ridden idol worshipping Hindu religion. He knew about Manusmiriti and “molten lead” stuff when I didn’t any of them. The hate within ROP makes them search for evil stuff everwhere so that they can lie to themselves that "all is well". Like you, they quote " sati pratha", manusmriti etc. which even "kattar Hindus" may not know about. Please add 2+2.

You want to see it in action, ask any forward caste woman of your grandmother's age to have a roti from Dalit home

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker

The very fact that you question "hope you have heard of most followed Hindu text of Manusmriti" makes it an exception. Can you ask the question "have you read BOP" to a peaceful? I dont think I can explain in simpler words. Neither is super intelligence required to understand what I am saying.

Exception is exception. Norm is norm. They cannot “balance” each other. I am sure for you, ISIS and RSS are two sides of the same coin.

, Casteism which orginated from this particular text is still is a factor in India's social makeup. Believe me, Islam is actually benevolent to its people, Hinduism is not.

[quote=PeaceSeeker;672027]That is more like you. You dont like Hinduism, its fine. At least Hinduism does not wear the BURQA of being PERFECT & FLAWLESS. That single characteristic is enough to NOT COMPARE IT WITH RELIEION OF PEACE. There are many other characteristics which we can go on & on about.

And I am not sure, but Hanuman is supposed to be from OBC category. I can produce “links” as proof.[quote]

Abrahmic religion including Judaism claim they are flawless. Hinduism uptill recently believed it is flaw-less and more so in rural area still believes it is flawless and low caste birth is "Pichle janam ka paap"

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker

ROP is a hollow ideology. It has no substance. It claims to be perfect when it is absolutely shit (Its claims of being 'perfect' is a desperate attempt to hide the fact that its biggest shit of all) It is more imperfect that the most imperfect ideology possible. It’s past & present is full of barbarism & savagery. World got woken up to it after 911. But an average Indian Dharmic knew about the internal hollowness of the cult since much before. I am not talking about peacefuls but about ROP.

Now you shited from Muslim-hatred to Islam-hatred. I am fine with your outrage against religion not in favor of blind hatred.
For the point, Indian dharmic do not believe in their hollowness even now, tell me how can, monkey-bear combine can invade SriLanka?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker

I didnt rep you to help you rep me. I just repped

I hope jeetiaf realizes how futile his counter arguments are. There was a time I used to think his arguments have weight. Once he said, "Kashmir issue" is about ethnicity and has nothing to do with religion. Since it came from him, I kind of pondered over it. But it seems he says stuff just for the sake of it.

Never, I always say thing with conviction, that is part of habit of profession of arms. If India keeps on looking Kashmir as religious problem, it will never solve it. Just like India isn't seeing that Naxalism is tribal problem not communist problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sane Less

I would say, more hindus to start with. This also explains what happened to India. There are plenty of arguments that say that with all the violence brought to India by the moghuls, there should be no Hinduism left in India... so, conversely, since there are so many Hindus left, moghuls were peaceful.

Hindus were themselves wanted Islamic rule many a times, Babar was invited by Rana Sanga to eliminate Lodhis, he thought Babar would leave and he would rule Delhi.
It was game of power-politics and people switched sides irrespective of their religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker

In a peaceful majority area, if 'others' have not vanished, it means the peacefuls are not following ROP in true sense. Eg. Indonesia, the largest peaceful nation, is supposedly quite tolerant. The peacefuls there do not object to Ganesha's picture on currency notes. As per rop, idol worshipping is one of the biggest sin. Absolutely evil & haram. Obviously, these peacefuls are erring. They told Vajpayee that "we have changed our religion but that does not mean we have changed our roots & past culture". This is absolutely un-ropic. Once a mozzie, all evil kafir past should be gone. Otherwise you haven't embraced r-o-p genuinely.

Agree with last line thoroughly. Turkey is much finer example than Indonesia. Islam asks for total submission to god, it does not always say kill people who are not your follower. Infact, Jews always had better life in Islamic rule than in Christian rule

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeaceSeeker

Actually, the mughlas used extreme force to begin with (as expected of ROP). But very soon they realized that too much force is risky for their own rule because the it set the alarm/bells ringing amongst Hindus. It is then that they turned soft, slow, steady & applied strategy of "moderate force for a longer time". That is my knowledge and likely the truth.

Truth is hindus, mainly Rajput was happy because they had their share of pie. Akbar's administration was run by like of Pandit Birbal and Todarmal. Till the time forward castes are ruling everything can be justified as Dharma.
Only reservation for lower caste is anti-India.

jeetIAF

__________________ One isn't born one's self. One is born with mass of expectation, a mass of other people's ideas- and you have to work it all.- Sir VS Naipaul

^^ I don't know whether you mix lot of things knowingly or unknowingly. Nevermind.
Keyphrases like 'woman of grandmothers age', ' text is still a factor in social make-up', 'still believes it is flawless' etc. etc. prove my point. Which is, it is not the norm. It may have happened, may be happening but neither was, not is a norm.
And please go ahead & say that 'refusing to have roti' is same (or worse than) putting molted lead in ears. She must have been indoctrinated by manusmriti so heavily that she went ahead & did something worse than putting molted lead.

...
Hindus were themselves wanted Islamic rule many a times, Babar was invited by Rana Sanga to eliminate Lodhis, he thought Babar would leave and he would rule Delhi.
It was game of power-politics and people switched sides irrespective of their religion.
...

As Peacehicker already pointed out, you seem to be might confused. Take the above phrase itself. You start out by saying Hindus themselves wanted "peaceful" rule... and the example you give is of a Rana Sanga who thought Babar would leave afterwards. Do you see the contradiction... between wishes and wants

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"Kisi ne sahi kaha zindagi kutti cheez hai. You live life without a care in the world not realizing that life is building a heavy load of trash that it dumps on you one fine day, breaking your back." - saneless

^^ I don't know whether you mix lot of things knowingly or unknowingly. Nevermind.
Keyphrases like 'woman of grandmothers age', ' text is still a factor in social make-up', 'still believes it is flawless' etc. etc. prove my point. Which is, it is not the norm. It may have happened, may be happening but neither was, not is a norm.
And please go ahead & say that 'refusing to have roti' is same (or worse than) putting molted lead in ears. She must have been indoctrinated by manusmriti so heavily that she went ahead & did something worse than putting molted lead.

You still don't believe me
Try being in any village of Cow-belt, look at the pathetic condition of Dalits in every village, everything is unacceptable except Dalit pussies of course, they are still not allowed to enter temples. and infact their shadow on any forward caste is not considered good. and it is norm even now. For indoctrination through manusmirits, for indoctrination education should be universalized, my ancestors were not eligible because Jats are not supposed to be educated it is entirely Brahmin-Rajput thing. And this is situation today, imagine what they would have done some 2-300 years ago
Worst arguement I heard from forward caste, "Dalit ke bacche mehnat nahi karna chahate bass muft mein colleges ke seatein chahiye , jaise naa jaane inke baap-daada kitne mehnati theyy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sane Less

As Peacehicker already pointed out, you seem to be might confused. Take the above phrase itself. You start out by saying Hindus themselves wanted "peaceful" rule... and the example you give is of a Rana Sanga who thought Babar would leave afterwards. Do you see the contradiction... between wishes and wants

Facts remains as such only. It is just one of the facts. Raja Hemchandra who lost second Panipat was general of adil shah suri of Afghanistan. This religious segregation of power is pretty new in History. It is like Indian civilization is century old but India as a territorial nation is act of British Parliament. And judging history by modern parametre of secularism and liberalism is wrong, it is like blaming Whites for apartheid now even though it is generation old concept.

jeetIAF

__________________ One isn't born one's self. One is born with mass of expectation, a mass of other people's ideas- and you have to work it all.- Sir VS Naipaul

You still don't believe me
Try being in any village of Cow-belt, look at the pathetic condition of Dalits in every village, everything is unacceptable except Dalit pussies of course, they are still not allowed to enter temples. and infact their shadow on any forward caste is not considered good. and it is norm even now. For indoctrination through manusmirits, for indoctrination education should be universalized, my ancestors were not eligible because Jats are not supposed to be educated it is entirely Brahmin-Rajput thing. And this is situation today, imagine what they would have done some 2-300 years ago
Worst arguement I heard from forward caste, "Dalit ke bacche mehnat nahi karna chahate bass muft mein colleges ke seatein chahiye , jaise naa jaane inke baap-daada kitne mehnati theyy

dont teach me Hindus & Hinduism I know very well that casteism exists. I will not deny it and say "Hinduism is perfect, Hindus are not".
Hindus are very cunning & dhokebaaz. As cunning and dhokebaaz as a human can be. But they dont hide behind "perfect religion". A religion being cunning & dhokebaaz while hiding behind "perfecthood" is a different thing altogether.

The red portion was malformed but whatever it is, please give an example where molten lead is poured in ears as a norm. As far as I can remember, I have not known any such example in my life. Don't beat around the bush. I know at many places in India, upper castes consider lower castes inferior, dont share food, utensils with them or allow them to enter into temples etc. You are not telling me something I don't know. As per Indian law, it is illegal. Islamic countries are still debating whether or not apostates deserve death.
2-300 years ago things were bad, today things are better. In case of rop, it was bad and has moved towards worse. I would demand removal of such lines from manusmiriti or whatever instead of telling you to read it in "proper context" or some such bullshit. Peacefuls are right in giving such arguments because its the perfect & last revelation and a perfect thing cannot have anything wrong. Not even an iota.

Dont compare cult with spirituality. Basic intelligence tells you that a perfect thing cannot hide behind fault in others. An imperfect thing can point fingers at others. But a perfect thing has to be perfect by itself irrespective of whether others are average or complete rubbish.

Again, you are generalizing and making Islam too monotheistic which it isn't.

It is TOO much of whatever it is. Too much of anything causes mayhem. Which ROP is & has been doing since ever. Very much expectedly. We are not talking about your version of it. We are talking about plain vanilla version.

Believe me, Islam is actually benevolent to its people, Hinduism is not.

I dont believe you or someone else. I believe in facts & logic. ROP divides humanity into "its people" and others. And then it is supposedly benevolent to "its people". The bigger mistake is already done. And then, it is benevolent. Sure. But in your version only.

For the point, Indian dharmic do not believe in their hollowness even now, tell me how can, monkey-bear combine can invade SriLanka?

You dont get the point at all. Hollowness has got nothing to do mythological/mythical stories (monkey-bear combine invading Lanka or flying donkeys). I guess first I need to let you know the meaning of 'hollow' first.

If India keeps on looking Kashmir as religious problem, it will never solve it.

Sure. Stick to your version. I already pondered over it & rejected it.

Agree with last line thoroughly. Turkey is much finer example than Indonesia. Islam asks for total submission to god, it does not always say kill people who are not your follower. Infact, Jews always had better life in Islamic rule than in Christian rule

"Total submission" and "does not always ask" are kindof contradictory. But nevermind.

I think the problem with you, Jeetfail pai, is that you are confusing facts with wants. You want some specific things and you are twisting and turning facts to match those wants. You want old-age hindus to welcome islam into India and you are presenting the few exceptions where some rulers invited them in... with the thought that they will leave afterwards. You want new-age hindus to be caste-based... but you forget that the Indian constitution itself has outlawed caste-based differentiation.

With all the facts you are presented, it is very clear that the issue is not social or religious conditions of India but purely a literacy issue. Education is the need of the day... if we all focus on properly educating the masses, I believe that is all that is needed. It is many a time that you will find a low-caste citizen moving to the other side of the road to give way to a high-caste citizen. Many a time you will find a woman not enter a temple because it is a men-only place. Yes, you will find some old people not eat at a low-caste home... but those days are going away. I personally know friends, whose parents hesitate... but not my friends themselves. Why because they are all educated (please note, there are exceptions... there are always exceptions).

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"Kisi ne sahi kaha zindagi kutti cheez hai. You live life without a care in the world not realizing that life is building a heavy load of trash that it dumps on you one fine day, breaking your back." - saneless

A Punjab Assembly legislator’s property was damaged by a mob on Saturday morning in Ludhiana’s Malerkotla after a group, which wanted to complain about someone “tearing” the pages of the Quran, was allegedly turned away from meeting her.
Tension started at 10 pm Friday when pages of the Quran were found near Jarg Chowk in Malerkotla. Around 1 am, a group of people went to meet MLA Farzana Nissara Khatoon, who stays on Ludhiana-Malerkotla road, but were allegedly turned away.

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This is quite a game, politics. There are no permanent enemies, and no permanent friends,only permanent interests. - Some Firang