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Turandot, +1....This may be the first time I have completely agreed with one of your post. Clearly stated and on point. Thank you.

For those who haven't met Lang Lang; he is a very warm and charitable man. Don't judge his musicianship by a few flashy performances posted on Youtube.

Back to Valentina Lisitsa. I'm picking up the Rachmaninoff set this coming weekend. A hard copy for the car. Thanks.

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"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams

I I didn't know anything about this, and wonder if anyone else has any interesting information like this about other piano artists, etc. I really would like to know more.

I've been thinking about that. I'd like to know too. I'm no piano performance historian at all, but it seems to me that classical piano music hasn't been as successful as opera or dance in freshening its image while holding onto all that is good about the past. Take the Three Tenors phenomenon for example. They transformed opera haters into opera lovers without any loss of self-respect or disrespect for the music. And they had fun doing it. That's important.

Most classical pianists seen and heard on youtube don't upload their own stuff, and definitely don't add a note asking their fans to be the first to own their product for sale. I'm sure it's scandalous for some. Even fraternizing professionally in performance with artists of other musical genres (Friedrich Gulda, Emmanuel Ax, etc.) can get an artist into hot water with the establishment.

IMO Lisitsa's position at present with regard to youtube and social media most closely parallels the position of the symphonic and operatic composer Richard Strauss when in 1904 he brought the entire music establishment down on his head by giving two concerts in Wanamaker's (now Macy's) Department store in NYC. Critics on both sides of the Atlantic wrote that he had cheapened classical music by performing it in a place of commerce. This isn't much different from how old-guard critics pan Lisitsa today. The difference is that in Strauss's day, critics were kingmakers with tremendous power to make or ruin careers. Today it's completely different. With so much content on demand and most of it free, any individual can educate his own ears and come to his own judgment -- professional critics be damned.

Strauss's response to the lambasting he absorbed was to say: "True art enables any hall, and earning money in a decent way for wife and child is no disgrace - even for an artist." I think Lisitsa would see things pretty much the same way. She is not to blame that pianists who can barely play have their own youtube channels. She simply wants to reach as many folks as she can and let them make up their own minds.

I have no quarrel with what Lisitsa is doing to advance her career through unconventional means. I just wish I found her musicianship more compelling. As far as I have seen and heard so far, she is within the pack of competent professional musicians but nothing special, and the attention she has garnered seems out of proportion to her actual accomplishments, imo.

I have no quarrel with what Lisitsa is doing to advance her career through unconventional means. I just wish I found her musicianship more compelling. As far as I have seen and heard so far, she is within the pack of competent professional musicians but nothing special, and the attention she has garnered seems out of proportion to her actual accomplishments, imo.

Sophial,

While I understand your sentiment, I do think that "competent professional" understates Ms. Lisitsa's talent by quite a margin. Nevertheless, I think you hit on the obvious point that the music biz is the music biz and that talent is only one piece of the "international performing career puzzle". The trouble is that in today's world, the ground game of classical music promotion is changing quickly and we all struggle to find the balance between making ourselves available and playing hard to get.

As to the proportionality of attention to talent issue, I think we can all breath a deep sigh of relief in knowing that in this case, the issue is not one of Lady GaGa proportions...

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Musician, Singer, Teacher, Humorist, Dad...

â€śI have an inferiority complex, but itâ€™s not a very good one.â€ť â€• Steven Wright

I have a feeling that the limited demand in the US for new classical piano cds has driven the music companies to manipulate the public's concept of who the most talented pianists in the world are. If they have a large catalog of one artist and can recycle it in various formats endlessly, they have no urgency to introduce new artists. On the other hand, if sales on these items drop significantly, they suddenly discover a new, wonderful, artist who is rewriting the rules of music with his/her magnificent interpretations. I feel for the artist who must find a way to distinguish himself/herself in this environment. It used to be that a pianist had to win a major competition to prove his worth. That was a slippery slope, but at least we heard of some new artists once in a while. Now that doesn't seem to be enough. Maybe YouTube is the way. I just want classical music to flourish and for more people to find the joy that I find in this magical gift. We may need more people like Valentina to open the eyes of the music-buying public. Good luck to them all.

I have no quarrel with what Lisitsa is doing to advance her career through unconventional means. I just wish I found her musicianship more compelling. As far as I have seen and heard so far, she is within the pack of competent professional musicians but nothing special, and the attention she has garnered seems out of proportion to her actual accomplishments, imo.

Sophial,

While I understand your sentiment, I do think that "competent professional" understates Ms. Lisitsa's talent by quite a margin. Nevertheless, I think you hit on the obvious point that the music biz is the music biz and that talent is only one piece of the "international performing career puzzle". The trouble is that in today's world, the ground game of classical music promotion is changing quickly and we all struggle to find the balance between making ourselves available and playing hard to get.

As to the proportionality of attention to talent issue, I think we can all breath a deep sigh of relief in knowing that in this case, the issue is not one of Lady GaGa proportions...

Indeed, but I put her in the same category as an Andrea Bocelli who has had popular and commercial more than critical success. For an upcoming star with real artistry and musicianship, I'd give the nod to someone like Benjamin Grosvenor. I'd listen to him any time rather than Lisitsa.

Edited by sophial (12/29/1201:00 PM)Edit Reason: edited to corrrect reference to the Met

We live in an upside down world, their are hundreds maybe a thousand wannabe classical players trying to make a go of it as a career.. if Ms Lisitsa found a way bravo! they pay bigger prizes for Wheel of Fortune than Jeopardy! go figure, Lady Gaga will make more money in one month than Lisitsa would in 20 yrs of playingfinacial compensation seems to go more to the "popular" than the scientist who discoversa cure for some dreaded disease would recieve paltry finacial compensationthan some major league ball player...an upside down world to be sure!

I have no quarrel with what Lisitsa is doing to advance her career through unconventional means. I just wish I found her musicianship more compelling. As far as I have seen and heard so far, she is within the pack of competent professional musicians but nothing special, and the attention she has garnered seems out of proportion to her actual accomplishments, imo. ........

I put her in the same category as an Andrea Bocelli who has had popular and commercial more than critical success. For an upcoming star with real artistry and musicianship, I'd give the nod to someone like Benjamin Grosvenor. I'd listen to him any time rather than Lisitsa.

Sophia,

I have no quarrel with your opinion of Lisitsa the musician if it is your own opinion. It bothers me a little that you refer to her level of "critical success". I think, unless you yourself are a professional critic, you should only speak for yourself. That's good enough. Professional critics are becoming relatively toothless, but they are still scary, and often nasty and vindictive.

Unless you have paid for her material in live or recorded form, you are in Ms. Lisitsa's debt for giving you and everyone else so much via free electronic media to react to in forming your own judgment. That judgment is different from mine, but that's of no consequence whatsoever.. The point is that in the 21st century we are able to reach our own judgments of what we would rather listen to without a whole bunch of effort.

This thread is really more about the means to the end than anyone's (self especially included) particular categorization or pianist ranking system. If, as you say, the attention paid to Lisitsa is out of proportion to her accomplishments, then it proves that something is clicking, and that BĂ¶sendorfer and Decca, rather than reacting slavishly to professional critics, are catching a ride on whatever is clicking.

This morning I listened to some week-old tracks on Lisitsa's youtube channel. I was hardly johnny-on-the spot. Thirteen thousand had preceded me. Here are some notes from her that accompanied one upload.

This little piece is the best answer to all those "music critics", self-proclaimed experts and other snobs who throughout the years and years belittled, ignored or attacked Liszt music as primitive kitsch designed to pander to primitive tastes of gullible public. What can be closer to perfection than these few pages sparsely "populated" with few notes , easy enough for any amateur to tackle - yet profound and comforting to turn to in the moment of quiet happiness and contemplation - or in the moment of utter hopelessness and despair?

What I get from those notes is a musician who is encouraging her followers to explore some free sheet music and make their own statement with a piece that is not densely populated with notes and is not all that technically demanding. I think it's this encouragement and lack of any condescension that is working. It's also quite obvious what she thinks of so-called experts.

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BTW, I'm intrigued by Ben Grosvenoor as well. I'll be making my annual pilgrimage to La Jolla, CA in February to see what's up with him. But let's be clear here. Grosvenor is in the emerging stage where the main challenge is to keep up with all his competition-related obligations without physical and mental exhaustion. Lisitsa went through that long ago with t he handicap that she made her bones on dual piano works. At this point her interest is in resuscitating a career that had stalled badly when the critics moved on to the latest competition darlings and left her to her own devices.

It is very much my own opinion based on watching a number of her youtube videos and sections of the Royal Albert Hall recital. It was only after that and out of a sense of "what is all the fuss about?" that I started reading more and talking to other pianists whose opinion I respect and who had come to similar conclusions independently.

I do appreciate her egalitarian stance and willingness to buck convention. She seems like a lovely and gracious personality. However, it doesn't surprise me that her solo career had stalled, probably for those reasons I mentioned in my earlier post. Once you get past admiration for her technical facility, there is not a lot of great musicianship happening, imo. But I realize others may strongly disagree.

Once you get past admiration for her technical facility, there is not a lot of great musicianship happening, imo. But I realize others may strongly disagree.

Sophia

Sophia,

I very much respect your opinion and appreicate you caring enough to take the time to post here. I really should get out of this thread for a while instead of mouthing off, but allow me one personal note.

I don't know exactly what makes a performance compelling to different people, but I don't think Lisitsa's demeanor or style on the bench contributes that much to whatever it is. Lisitsa's posture and motions remind me of someone operating a loom, and she dispatches the music without giving the appearance of savoring it. I know from talking to others that her way can be maddening.

I've always been drawn to performers who seemed a a little cold-blooded in their execution of a piece (even when they didn't have a warm and gracious personality ). Michelangeli, Richter, and the late Alexis Weiseenberg were big faves of mine when I was more involved in classical music. Each one got my box office donations.

So personally I'm a sucker for the aloof and dispassionate image that Lisitsa presents at the piano. I also admire all the videos she uploaded in which she was playing both Bosies and Hamburgs that were nowhere near the top of their game and was sitting on a $50 X bench. Hey, what can I say? I've been reaching an accommodation with less than perfect pianos all my life and honestly prefer upright chairs and X benches to the fancy stuff.

Happy New Year to you. It was fun chatting with you once again. Now I've got to try my best to stay out of the way for a while!

Indeed, but I put her in the same category as an Andrea Bocelli who has had popular and commercial more than critical success. For an upcoming star with real artistry and musicianship, I'd give the nod to someone like Benjamin Grosvenor. I'd listen to him any time rather than Lisitsa.

Again, not challenging your personal preferences or intentionally singling you out, I would like to correct this misconception that Valentina ever lacked wide critical acceptance; she had many excellent reviews but that was not why she struggled to develop her career. Those who were previously aware of her regularly laid out fine reviews for both her mastery and her performances. What she lacked was draw. She has had critical acceptance in the community for some time. She found a way to create her audience. Her audience includes millions who have never seen her live. More audience means more fans and more critics.

Her career had basically stalled without the draw. Her traditional options were not good, so she took big risks and earned my fascination a second time. I feel almost the opposite, like reading a great author that finally made the NY Times best seller's list.

The idea that she is not deserving of success for her artistry irks me. Preferring another doesn't bother me in the slightest, but trying to detract or divert that success shows a real disconnect to me. Isn't there room in the great many, half-empty halls to do more?

Once you get past admiration for her technical facility, there is not a lot of great musicianship happening, imo. But I realize others may strongly disagree.

Sophia

Sophia,

I very much respect your opinion and appreicate you caring enough to take the time to post here. I really should get out of this thread for a while instead of mouthing off, but allow me one personal note.

I don't know exactly what makes a performance compelling to different people, but I don't think Lisitsa's demeanor or style on the bench contributes that much to whatever it is. Lisitsa's posture and motions remind me of someone operating a loom, and she dispatches the music without giving the appearance of savoring it. I know from talking to others that her way can be maddening.

I've always been drawn to performers who seemed a a little cold-blooded in their execution of a piece (even when they didn't have a warm and gracious personality ). Michelangeli, Richter, and the late Alexis Weiseenberg were big faves of mine when I was more involved in classical music. Each one got my box office donations.

So personally I'm a sucker for the aloof and dispassionate image that Lisitsa presents at the piano. I also admire all the videos she uploaded in which she was playing both Bosies and Hamburgs that were nowhere near the top of their game and was sitting on a $50 X bench. Hey, what can I say? I've been reaching an accommodation with less than perfect pianos all my life and honestly prefer upright chairs and X benches to the fancy stuff.

Happy New Year to you. It was fun chatting with you once again. Now I've got to try my best to stay out of the way for a while!

Hi turandot,

Thanks for the kind words and Happy New Year to you too! It's an interesting thread, and I don't begrudge her success, nor question her path to it. However, my opinion of Lisitsa's musicianship has nothing to do with her demeanor or visuals at the piano. I don't get aloofness from her at all. If anything I find her to be rather demonstrative in her arm movements and facial expressions, unlike say Richter (who I adore), Horowitz, Rubinstein and other performers who exhibited the highest levels of musicianship and interpretive artistry with no fanfare or showmanship. I simply don't find her musical ideas or interpretations to be very compelling, interesting or artistically convincing, which leaves me feeling she is not a top caliber artist, although very technically adept. Sam and others may disagree, fair enough. She deserves credit for finding another path to success, whatever opinions I or others may have of her strengths and limitations. Nice chatting with you again too.

First appearance on "Ellen" I think it was a Yamaha, and there are movies on youtube of her promoting a variety of piano stuff. Recently I haven't seen her with anything else than Steinway, though I could be wrong?

With Emily's emphasis on composing I don't know how marketable (or interested) she will be in older age for a piano brand - nevertheless she will be able to earn all the money she needs doing scores for commercials, films etc, adding to what she may earn in "non-commercial" music.

If you have any doubt about this, (if you saw her at Ellen doing this (jump to 4:30 if you're in a hurry)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EybqStUVyDgyou probably haven't)just look at her two recent re-scorings (?) of short movies

This thread is about one artist's attempt to advance her career and the music she loves by somewhat unconventional means. It is not about Lang Lang or his well-known sense of the theatric. To come on here simply to unload a bunch of personal animosity and refer to someone's "stupid face" is completely uncalled for.

It is possible to appreciate or disapprove of Ms. Listitsa's undertakings without knocking or vilifying others. The point was made that her new approach does not lessen the accomplishments of others who have taken more traditional ways to bring the pleasure of classical music to an audience. It's a good point.

We should follow the example of Ms. Lisitsa herself. Other than occasional comments disagreeing with the playing approach of contemporary exponents of the so-called Russian school of pianists, she has never knocked the competition, and certainly never singled out any pianist for abuse or ridicule.

Again, we should all follow her example and resist any urge to burden others with our own subjective negativity.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I get the impression that she knows a lot about the playing of other classical pianists, and admires them, not as competition, but as colleagues.

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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

It goes without saying that everyone is entitled to her/his personal taste, and entitled to employ a different (often subconscious) weighting system of the many factors that collectively add up to taste. There's no argument about that.

When I was a kid studying piano, it was pretty much one headliner pianist concert a year. Other than same-day student rush seats, tickets were expensive. Like most of my piano student friends, I collected a few albums with my allowance and part-time job earnings. The great debate of the day was Horowitz/Rubinstein...who was better? The debate was lively but poorly fuled, mostly by limited access to a few LP's, some cut live and some made in studio. Part of the fuel mix were the back covers of the albums, which touted the most favorable critical reviews from the profesesional experts of the day. In retrospect it was all kind of silly, but we were kids, and even if we had been adults, access to comprehensive data was extremely limited.

Obviously times have changed and Lisitsa, love her or hate her, deserves credit for being at the vanguard of that change. A professional pianist who shares her practice sessions, broadcasts with a webcam from her practice room, and feeds her fans a steay stream of new material as well as encouragement to pursue their own talent -- such a musician is bound to lose a few who like to think of their faves as members of a pianist pantheon in the garden of the gods.. On the other hand, 52 million youtube hits are going to pick up some new fans along the way to replace the stargazers

Even if you dislike Lisitsa's playing approach or fault her musicianship, you should be grateful to her for making it so easy for you to reach that conclusion. You don't have to spend a dime to get the data that fifty years ago would take most of a lifetime to accumulate.

Like most of my piano student friends, I collected a few albums with my allowance and part-time job earnings. The great debate of the day was Horowitz/Rubinstein...who was better? The debate was lively but poorly fueled, mostly by limited access to a few LP's, some cut live and some made in studio. Part of the fuel mix were the back covers of the albums, which touted the most favorable critical reviews from the professional experts of the day. In retrospect it was all kind of silly, but we were kids, and even if we had been adults, access to comprehensive data was extremely limited.

I remember the great Horowitz/Rubinstein debate quite well. And as for pianos, the debate back then focused on the relative merits of Steinway versus Baldwin. No other brands were considered to be in the same league - until Bosendorfers started to gain a following in the USA in the mid-1970s.

...These days Ms. Lisitsaâ€™s personal website opens with a video of those long-ago Abbey Road sessions of 2009. The piano is obviously the Finkenstein Hamburg Steinway chosen by her at the time, but the identifying information (the Steinway name and logo as well as the Finkelstein logo) is blocked by a cookie disclaimer at the bottom of the page. Zooming out brings the missing information into view. The same information is completely blocked in another extended shot by a table with a telephone perched on it. Here's the link.

When I was at university in the midst of my piano studies and friendly debates, Richter was also thrown into the mix. Though at the time, Cliburn hadn't yet self-destructed and was in consideration.

It's very true about the Baldwin/Steinway thingy but I think that Bosendorfer had crept in a bit sooner, in the early sixties. By the time I entered the UW-Madison in '69, it was already a Bosey school.

I think an important element is often missed when people consider the ability of Valentina Lisitsa.

She has a remarkable capacity to learn, she learns musical scores of great complexity very quickly and has gained herself a massive repetoire of technically challenging and difficult music because of it.

It is arguable that she is single-handedly responsible for the popularity of certain works. I read recently that it is now virtually a given that a concert pianist must be able to play all the Chopin Etudes and her You Tube versions are the first many youngsters see when they take an interest in classical piano playing.

This remarkable ability to learn is a double blessing, giving her more free time to actually promote herself.

The chances are that anybody else with her combined talents would take exactly the same course of action she takes.

The fact that none do does not make Valentina Lisitsa a freak, it simply makes her one of the greatest pianistic talents alive today.

When I was at university in the midst of my piano studies and friendly debates, Richter was also thrown into the mix. Though at the time, Cliburn hadn't yet self-destructed and was in consideration.

It's very true about the Baldwin/Steinway thingy but I think that Bosendorfer had crept in a bit sooner, in the early sixties. By the time I entered the UW-Madison in '69, it was already a Bosey school.

Yes - Richter and Cliburn - were definitely part of the great debate back then. In fact, I was a great fan of Richter in the 60s.

I'd never been exposed to Boseys until I played one they'd recently acquired for the recital hall at the U of Missouri in Kansas City in '76. I'm impressed that UW-Madison was ahead of the curve !!