Oh sorry, maybe ALL the top kids in the English academies were inspired to play once SKY started showing Championship matches.

Maybe Les Catalans.v.Toulouse in Superleague will bore the pants off the french kids of tomorrow.

What are you speculating? That second rate stuff excites more than first rate stuff?

Is that why there's loads of top kids playing RL in York, Batley, Donny and Keighley then?

Bring on Toulouse.......

Then we'll see how Superleague and Money grows the game......

Were all the French players from Perpignan or were they from there and the other club areas in French RL.? I've said it before but it dosn't wash with you. Children do not take up rugby with a view to playing professional. They take it up because they like it and get enjoyment from it. Any thoughts of being a professional come much later if they turn out to be good enough. So if they come from Limoux they will get their inspiration from playing for their junior club in Limoux, in Avignon from their Avignon club and indeed in Perpignan from a junior club in that area. So SL clubs do not by and of their very existence result in more players for France. It is the junior game which produces the players and these can come from anywhere league is played, indeed even from Batley and Dewsbury or that SL desert Cumbria all of which have produced several international players.

Children do not take up rugby with a view to playing professional. They take it up because they like it and get enjoyment from it. Any thoughts of being a professional come much later if they turn out to be good enough.

I live in Leeds where Junior RL has grown on the back of immense success of the local Rhinos club.

The buzz and the excitement has seen many new junior clubs being created by ADULTS and the kids watch the Rhinos and join those clubs, because enthusiastic ADULTS created that opportunity.

None of the kids think of being professionals at 6,7,8, but by the time they hit 10 and 11 they do. Kids from the local soccer junior team are at LUFC, Bradford City and Huddersfield Town. A lad from this club begged his dad to take him to a trial at Manchester City.

Where RL is vibrant is in Superleague areas. I have done the research. In superleague areas thousands of people get interested in the game, start junior sides and their kids and their mates join. They watch Superleague live or on telly and they want to be those players.

However in York, Batley and Keighley it's different. The senior club crowds are low. This spawns few fans with the will to start up junior clubs so kids don't even join in the first place.........

It's time you thought things through, it's time you looked at the facts, it's time you stopped trying to contrive arguments that support your desire for the old days to come back.

A few weeks ago Fev were due to play a scholarship game against Huddersfield Giants who get £120K per year central funding from the RFL to run their elite youth development programmes. Guess what? Fev, who get nothing and have to fund things themselves, were raring to go but SL Giants couldn't raise a team.

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I live in Leeds where Junior RL has grown on the back of immense success of the local Rhinos club.

The buzz and the excitement has seen many new junior clubs being created by ADULTS and the kids watch the Rhinos and join those clubs, because enthusiastic ADULTS created that opportunity.

None of the kids think of being professionals at 6,7,8, but by the time they hit 10 and 11 they do. Kids from the local soccer junior team are at LUFC, Bradford City and Huddersfield Town. A lad from this club begged his dad to take him to a trial at Manchester City.

Where RL is vibrant is in Superleague areas. I have done the research. In superleague areas thousands of people get interested in the game, start junior sides and their kids and their mates join. They watch Superleague live or on telly and they want to be those players.

However in York, Batley and Keighley it's different. The senior club crowds are low. This spawns few fans with the will to start up junior clubs so kids don't even join in the first place.........

It's time you thought things through, it's time you looked at the facts, it's time you stopped trying to contrive arguments that support your desire for the old days to come back.

Keighley ARLFC just beat the pride of Leeds, Drighlington, in Leed to reach the semi final of the Yorkshire cupbut Keighley dont produce players so that must be wrong. Maybe the players for the Keighley team were never juniors,maybe they just emigrated from Leeds to the area.

A few weeks ago Fev were due to play a scholarship game against Huddersfield Giants who get £120K per year central funding from the RFL to run their elite youth development programmes. Guess what? Fev, who get nothing and have to fund things themselves, were raring to go but SL Giants couldn't raise a team.

Oh my, here we go again.

One anecdotal event ends up being proof positive that black is white.

Go do your own extensive research, trawl through the list of British Superleague players and list out where they were born and where they played their amateur/junior RL before entering the academies.

List out all the junior clubs you can find that feed academies and their locations.

By far far and away the highest number of young pro players come from areas that are centered on Superleague Clubs.

Featherstone/Pontefract is a area rich in junior talent and is centered on TWO Superleague clubs.

Huddersfield has several junior clubs and they produce Superleague professionals.

Keighley has the odd junior club and produced no current SL professional.

The problem here is people want to turn back the clock the the old semi pro days in an age where kids often have better things to do that RL. Lord help us that doesn't happen because if you list out the number of junior clubs and successful players developed by them who are centered on Championship clubs then it's very very thin.

Keighley ARLFC just beat the pride of Leeds, Drighlington, in Leed to reach the semi final of the Yorkshire cupbut Keighley dont produce players so that must be wrong. Maybe the players for the Keighley team were never juniors,maybe they just emigrated from Leeds to the area.

Total drivel, Drighlington isn't even in Leeds nor do they furnish Leeds with any great number of players, if they do name them - go on name them??

Read this and learn something.

In 1974 Widnes returned to the big time appearing in the Regal trophy final, and embarked on a run of success that ended in 1993 beaten at Wembley. In that 20 years the clubs success playing at the top of the game stimulated a growth in junior RL that led to a long list of local born players many of whom grace the Widnes hall of fame many of whom went on to become Great Britain internationals. You may remember such as Widnes St. Maries, Widnes Tigers and Halton Hornets.

Contrast with Keighley who won nowt and early in that period sank to a sustained run of failure in the second division. By the end of that same 20 year period the Keighley area couldn’t even raise a local side strong enough to play in the Championship (please re-read that phrase), so when they “found” some money they had to buy up players surplus to requirement from top division clubs, and they turned to lads from Leeds, Oldham, Hull, Featherstone, Widnes, Halifax, Bradford and Warrington.

Keighley and Widnes are two traditional RL areas with both clubs dating back to 1885, and industrial towns of roughly equal size. The difference in junior development was however massive and the only sensible and logical explanation to that was that kids want to play Rugby League far more and in far greater numbers where the local professional side is successful or at least plays in the top division. Exactly how that process works is complicated but it works like that, the facts prove it.

Outside of the M62 the only places that can challenge the talent the north produces at youth level is south Wales, France and you can be sure the south east could raise a side to compete. Oddly south wales had the Crusaders, France has the Dragons and the south east has the Broncos. Pure co-incidnce is this??

This is why the game cannot afford to pamper to the championship clubs who feed off the scraps SL leaves them, nor can it afford to invest money into clubs who don’t inspire the local kids to play. Nor can it afford NOT to have top level teams outside the M62 at top level because if it did it would be a disaster. For the sake of the development of the game the RFL tried manfully to secure the top clubs plus clubs in London, Wales and France in Superleague and forced on them a remit of local development as an absolute requirement of membership.

Before you accuse me on a personal basis of being an SL “Lover” and “sod the rest” just for once look at the facts upon which the RFL’s policies are based, and accept the observations of a neutral.

Now do some research yourself for once and see what happened to Widnes's production line of talent post 1993 in the ensuing 20 years. Let me know what you find?

Go do your own extensive research, trawl through the list of British Superleague players and list out where they were born and where they played their amateur/junior RL before entering the academies.

List out all the junior clubs you can find that feed academies and their locations.

By far far and away the highest number of young pro players come from areas that are centered on Superleague Clubs.

Featherstone/Pontefract is a area rich in junior talent and is centered on TWO Superleague clubs.

Huddersfield has several junior clubs and they produce Superleague professionals.

Keighley has the odd junior club and produced no current SL professional.

The problem here is people want to turn back the clock the the old semi pro days in an age where kids often have better things to do that RL. Lord help us that doesn't happen because if you list out the number of junior clubs and successful players developed by them who are centered on Championship clubs then it's very very thin.

But black is white and the facts don't matter

Oh my, here we go again.

One anecdotal event ends up being proof positive that black is white.

Just one anecdotal event was it Parky. I'm sure I read where the Giants had abandoned their Under 20's as well. Rovers want to run a full pathway from junior scholarship to under 19's to under 23's and self funded. Will the RFL allow them to? We'll see. Maybe if the RFL directed funding to other historically productive areas which don't have a SL presence we might see further increase in the emergence of quality players. A couple of facts there for you Parky .

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 25 November 2012 - 09:44 AM.

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1. Just one anecdotal event was it Parky. I'm sure I read where the Giants had abandoned their Under 20's as well.

2. Rovers want to run a full pathway from junior scholarship to under 19's to under 23's and self funded. Will the RFL allow them to? We'll see. Maybe if the RFL directed funding to other historically productive areas which don't have a SL presence we might see further increase in the emergence of quality players. A couple of facts there for you Parky .

1. Most of the SL clubs have abandoned one of their development sides and are using Championship clubs to replace them. In Fartown's case they will utilise Batley.

But please just come out and explain what you are arguing. Two snipes at Fartown doesn't make a logical and reasoned debate does it???

The reason Fartown are in Superleague is because they have one thing Championship clubs don't have and that is a millionaire owner making up the funding.

If Mr, Nahaboo is intending to fund Featherstone in Superleague then please make the logical argument that Rovers should be in Superleague before Huddersfield, and guess what - I may agree with you.

But until Featherstone find some money (no no no - not by selling off a Zac Hardaker every other year ) then.....

2. All the Featherstone self funded (resulting in annual losses in the accounts) junior development scheme "pathway" will produce is a pathway for Featherstone and Pontefract lads not already picked up by Wakefield and cas to go to other SL clubs. there are TEN lads from your area playing in Superleague, had Davey come to Featherstone you'd be in Superleague now and doing very well indeed wouldn't you.

But he went to Fartown Terry and that's just how it is. Huddersfield have a junior RL set up and have had for some years, and it does produce top players so no need to have a go at them is there?? Superleague needs Davey's money.

in terms of the RFL providing funding to "historically productive areas" I understand Broughton Rangers once had the biggest school RL set up in the league. So again you need to define what you mean.

I've no doubt if we had top top SL clubs in merseyside, north west cheshire, greater manchester, leeds, calder, south bradford/halifax/oldham/huddersfield London and Hull these eight superleague clubs with academy set ups could continue to sit on these "historically productive areas" and inspire the kids to play and take the best through development systems.

But that already happens. If the RFL has any money it needs to get kids playing outside the M62, London, Wales, France and as you can see the RFL ARE investing in academies in new areas and especially Wales because of the hole left by Celtic Crusaders, a club so important to junior development the RFL have got Wigan on board to try to continue the work...

So I am lost as to where these badly neglected "historically productive areas that do not have an SL presence" are?? Please would you name them for the sake of furthering the debate??

The only one I can think of is Cumbria, and yes I would support the RFL opening up an academy up there if they had the money, indeed I'd support SKY money propping up a West Cumbria SL club.

Go do your own extensive research, trawl through the list of British Superleague players and list out where they were born and where they played their amateur/junior RL before entering the academies.

List out all the junior clubs you can find that feed academies and their locations.

By far far and away the highest number of young pro players come from areas that are centered on Superleague Clubs.

Featherstone/Pontefract is a area rich in junior talent and is centered on TWO Superleague clubs.

Huddersfield has several junior clubs and they produce Superleague professionals.

Keighley has the odd junior club and produced no current SL professional.

The problem here is people want to turn back the clock the the old semi pro days in an age where kids often have better things to do that RL. Lord help us that doesn't happen because if you list out the number of junior clubs and successful players developed by them who are centered on Championship clubs then it's very very thin.

But black is white and the facts don't matter

Here are some facts for you.

The England Lions u 18 team which was selected to play last month against the AIS toring team is as follows

The England Lions u 18 team which has been selected to play last month against the AIS toring team is a s followsJosh Adu-Dwamaa, Joe Batchelor Leigh East nearest senior club Leigh

Nearest SL club Wigan.

I seriously thought we could engage in a debate on this issue but you have completely ignored post #31

Does that mean you accept what I am saying???

What on earth is the post above meant to say??

Why don’t you just make a proper reply to my post#31 or make it clear what you are saying about these lads from Leigh??

Leigh have always produced RL professionals but not in any great number. Leigh have always fed off players from Wigan, Saints and Warrington to make up a competitive team in the Championship, or historically to win the odd trophy.

Today we see Leigh turning out professional quality players at the rate of one every few years, and these lads aspire to play for their local SL clubs like Wigan and Warrington.

That OF COURSE renders Leigh schools and clubs such as Leigh East important in the development of professional players for our game.

Leigh has a senior club but it doesn’t have enough fans, money or players to become a Superleague club – we saw the disaster of 2005. With or without Leigh, RL will continue to thrive in the town at their amateur clubs just like in Hunslet where the demise of the senior club never quashed the appetite for RL in the schools and junior clubs with Leeds becoming the all encompassing attraction.

What the heck are you and Terry trying to say??

That Featherstone Lions will fold if Featherstone disappeared??

That Leigh East will disband if Leigh disappeared??

Why don't we chuck in the old chestnut of all of East Hull going over to soccer if HKR went.

Kids are attracted to success and aspire to be a part of it - if Josh and Joe make the grade where will they go?

1. Most of the SL clubs have abandoned one of their development sides and are using Championship clubs to replace them. In Fartown's case they will utilise Batley.

But please just come out and explain what you are arguing. Two snipes at Fartown doesn't make a logical and reasoned debate does it???

The reason Fartown are in Superleague is because they have one thing Championship clubs don't have and that is a millionaire owner making up the funding.

If Mr, Nahaboo is intending to fund Featherstone in Superleague then please make the logical argument that Rovers should be in Superleague before Huddersfield, and guess what - I may agree with you.

But until Featherstone find some money (no no no - not by selling off a Zac Hardaker every other year ) then.....

2. All the Featherstone self funded (resulting in annual losses in the accounts) junior development scheme "pathway" will produce is a pathway for Featherstone and Pontefract lads not already picked up by Wakefield and cas to go to other SL clubs. there are TEN lads from your area playing in Superleague, had Davey come to Featherstone you'd be in Superleague now and doing very well indeed wouldn't you.

But he went to Fartown Terry and that's just how it is. Huddersfield have a junior RL set up and have had for some years, and it does produce top players so no need to have a go at them is there?? Superleague needs Davey's money.

in terms of the RFL providing funding to "historically productive areas" I understand Broughton Rangers once had the biggest school RL set up in the league. So again you need to define what you mean.

I've no doubt if we had top top SL clubs in merseyside, north west cheshire, greater manchester, leeds, calder, south bradford/halifax/oldham/huddersfield London and Hull these eight superleague clubs with academy set ups could continue to sit on these "historically productive areas" and inspire the kids to play and take the best through development systems.

But that already happens. If the RFL has any money it needs to get kids playing outside the M62, London, Wales, France and as you can see the RFL ARE investing in academies in new areas and especially Wales because of the hole left by Celtic Crusaders, a club so important to junior development the RFL have got Wigan on board to try to continue the work...

So I am lost as to where these badly neglected "historically productive areas that do not have an SL presence" are?? Please would you name them for the sake of furthering the debate??

The only one I can think of is Cumbria, and yes I would support the RFL opening up an academy up there if they had the money, indeed I'd support SKY money propping up a West Cumbria SL club.

You completely changed the focus of the argument because you were proven wrong. You went from the argument hat no non SL areas produce significant juniors to small clubs can't get into SL without a rich investor.

I seriously thought we could engage in a debate on this issue but you have completely ignored post #31

Does that mean you accept what I am saying???

What on earth is the post above meant to say??

Why don’t you just make a proper reply to my post#31 or make it clear what you are saying about these lads from Leigh??

Leigh have always produced RL professionals but not in any great number. Leigh have always fed off players from Wigan, Saints and Warrington to make up a competitive team in the Championship, or historically to win the odd trophy.

Today we see Leigh turning out professional quality players at the rate of one every few years, and these lads aspire to play for their local SL clubs like Wigan and Warrington.

That OF COURSE renders Leigh schools and clubs such as Leigh East important in the development of professional players for our game.

Leigh has a senior club but it doesn’t have enough fans, money or players to become a Superleague club – we saw the disaster of 2005. With or without Leigh, RL will continue to thrive in the town at their amateur clubs just like in Hunslet where the demise of the senior club never quashed the appetite for RL in the schools and junior clubs with Leeds becoming the all encompassing attraction.

What the heck are you and Terry trying to say??

That Featherstone Lions will fold if Featherstone disappeared??

That Leigh East will disband if Leigh disappeared??

Why don't we chuck in the old chestnut of all of East Hull going over to soccer if HKR went.

Kids are attracted to success and aspire to be a part of it - if Josh and Joe make the grade where will they go?

Superleague of course so what's you point?????

I submitted my post before I had completed it by accident ( hit the wrong button) so I am sorry that you weren't able to read the whole thing before you replied. I cannot speak for Terry but for me the point I am making is that junior clubs in CC club areas do, and that team list is the proof, produce top level players and it is not just SL influenced clubs who produce players. The success or lack thereof of the local Championship club is not part of this argument. The fact that the junior clubs producing top players are coming from other than SL areas is. They may go on to sign for SL clubs, probably will, but the fact will remain that their origins and their junior clubs were from CC areas and so counters your assertions that this is not so.

The fact that the junior clubs producing top players are coming from other than SL areas is. They may go on to sign for SL clubs, probably will, but the fact will remain that their origins and their junior clubs were from CC areas and so counters your assertions that this is not so.

I have never in my life ever said that top junior players only come from SL areas.

What a stupid thing to try to pin on me.

I did the research earlier this year that you rudely choose to ignore and outlined the fact that MOST professional players come from areas that have Superleague clubs in that area.

I could not find a current SL player in the starting 17 of an SL club who came from Batley or Keighley, I found one from York and one from Doncaster.

That's all on record but you choose to ignore everything that does not suit you.

What is YOUR POINT????

Or don't you have one? Are you now playing the Northern Sol of trying to trip me up??

You went from the argument that no non SL areas produce significant juniors....

What do you mean by "significant juniors" why don't you or Terry make a clear point?

Whilst your both falling over yourself to prove me wrong rather than make any clear or coherent point yourselves I checked with Kirkholt over the situation in Rochdale.

He says..........

"(In Rochdale) there has been a big loss of clubs over 30 years. What I would say has improved in Rochdale is junior RL. In the 80s, one or two die-hards kept plugging away with junior & youth teams but it was very haphazard. Mayfield now lead the way with the well organised Mustangs and are providing a number of players into Super League clubs".

I did my research and although I could not find any Rochdale born senior SL players, the best kids in Rochdale have started to be picked up especially by Saints.

That pretty much makes the Hornets isolated.

Your the one so keen to make the argument that the small championship clubs are important to the game in dreamworld, I'm the one doing the actual research in the real world and the structure of the modern game is well organised and resourced junior clubs across wide regions feeding the best players into Superleague clubs.

This proces has left so many championship clubs redundant in the scheme of things that ten of them have decided to formally become part of that process.

That leaves Keighley and Featherstone swimming against the tide, a very fair analysis don't you think?

Equally and back to the OP two french SL clubs will hopefully inspire whole swathes of southern France into taking RK up and taking it more seriously......