Brent, Amie, and I were going through customer requests earlier this week to see if there were any frequent requests that we were not addressing as a company. Clearly there seems to be a desire for us to have some sort of trade-up program. We have made a few attempts at this in the past, with limited success being about the best term I can apply to it, but I can’t help feeling there is some formula that can make this work.

Key to a good trade-up program is a good channel to sell the trade-ins, which could be the creation of a Refurb store on our site. We could bring the traded in products back to the factory and give them a full rework and testing. We could then offer them in the Refurb store at great prices with a new warranty, perhaps 2 or 3 years.

If you have any thoughts on this subject I would love to hear them. I would like to take all the feedback on this idea and put together a pilot program to test it all out.

While from a customer standpoint, I like the idea of tradeups, but from a company standpoint, I see the discount on a pair of, say, original M50tis to be too large to be sustainable. I mean, to sell those, you'd have to cut the price to something like $2 or 300, which means to the customer, it would have to be may be 100, 150, plus there's the work and cost of refurbing them.

I've always liked how Axiom just absorbs shipping into the product cost. As a consumer, that makes me feel "better". But I know it's not free.

Let's say I want to upgrade my M60's to M80's. I don't have my shipping boxes anymore. So, even if I pay for materials and delivery of the shipping boxes, I'm still sending two, big, heavy boxes thousands of miles so that Axiom can send me two other big, heavy boxes.

I'd like it if you could make it work, of course. I'd certainly trust "refurb" products from Axiom but would expect them to cost somewhat less than B-Stock, especially if they are not current versions.

What I'd REALLY like is an upgrade kit so that I could convert my ti models to v3. Shipping drivers and a crossover costs a lot less, would help scratch my upgrade itch, and might help Axiom obtain refurb parts for previous generation speakers.

What I'd REALLY like is an upgrade kit so that I could convert my ti models to v3. Shipping drivers and a crossover costs a lot less, would help scratch my upgrade itch, and might help Axiom obtain refurb parts for previous generation speakers.

What I'd REALLY like is an upgrade kit so that I could convert my ti models to v3. Shipping drivers and a crossover costs a lot less, would help scratch my upgrade itch, and might help Axiom obtain refurb parts for previous generation speakers.

This is my line of thinking, too. I think this is my best chance of staying current with Axiom's offerings.

Well, but that solution doesn't help people "upgrade" to bigger speakers. And without a refurb store, there's no reason for Axiom to want the old drivers back. I think it could be part of a revised, overall strategy, though.

The success of this really does come down to the numbers and we really won’t be totally sure what the right numbers are going to be until we have some experience with the Refurb store. The pilot project will certainly involve some guesses. I think we can say with confidence that the version is going to have a big effect on the number but again we will have to try it to know the delta for sure.

We can send cartons and pack for the traded-in product along with the new product to save some shipping dollars but there is still the reality that we are shipping the traded-in product back here and then back out again (not something that would work outside of North America). So the number that we could offer on the trade would end up being what we could sell it for in the Refurb store less the cost of the freight back and out again and a bit for the cost of the rework.

On the subject of up-grade kits there are a couple of wrinkles. One being that the cabinet has probably changed from one version to another so those upgrades would be sacrificed. The other is mainly related to M60s, M80s, and the VP180 in that the wiring going to the 5.25” woofers has to be changed at the crossover. This involves a lot of soldering and extreme care to get them in the correct place on the board. This said our parts are available to purchase so it can be done now. Different parts would be required depending on the model and series to bring them to v3 but we can assist in making that determination. In some instances the upgrade kit will end up being more expensive than the trade-in option.

Ian, in my view that's a great idea and it's likely that the numbers can be made to work. Grover(aka Ken)may be a bit too pessimistic in his economic analysis. For example, Accessories4less has been very successful in offering factory refurbished receivers at substantial discounts, varying primarily with the age of the item. Speaker buyers should have similar confidence in retested/refurbed Axioms.

The numbers might need some adjustment after experiencing the program in operation, but I'd think that a refurb discount averaging about 30% with an allowance to the owner doing the trade-up averaging about 50% should work well and make a complete program when added to the 10% Factory Outlet and 5% five item allowances.

I am hoping that these numbers can be made to work also just from the point of view that there seems to be desire on both sides of the trade for this option. I am going to do some calculating over the next few days and come up with a proposal for the pilot program and post it for comment. NOT Grover has hit the core problem right on the nose so we will just have to try for the best balance we can and see it can work for all involved.

I'm always for the idea but sometimes the idea doesn't pan out. Although many around here talk and wish and dream about owning this or that, in reality, how often does anyone 'upgrade' their speakers?Numbers indeed.

With a used market available through Audiogon and Canuck Audio Mart, people can often get other speakers for 50-60% or less of their 'new' cost, even if the items are less than a year old. Although i like this idea of a trade-in (avoiding use of the term 'upgrade' specifically), i suspect i would personally check out the used sites for Axiom speakers, review prices, before heading to the Axiom refurb store in comparison.That's just my approach though. Others may want the simplicity of going straight to the company and getting a warranty for comparable or extra price.

Numbers numbers numbers.Would there be enough demand to make it float?

Go recycling!(or in this case, re-using).

_________________________"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

I used your trade in program that you had in place previously. For me it was great, I absolutely could not believe how much money you gave me for my trade-in, I felt like I got new speakers for practically nothing! So it didnt surprise me when you discontinued it, There is no way it could have made money. Especially if you took my old speakers and sold them on ebay, that company will put anyone out of business with their fees. I always hoped the program would be reactivated in some manner and I think it can be done effectively. My thoughts are, first, only you know whether or not an in-house refurb store works for you. There are internal logistics involved that only you know. If it were me I would refurb them and then wholesale the trades to another internet company, like accessoriesforless, and be done with them. The whole trade-in plan is about selling more new speakers, not about getting into the refurb sales business. Second, the allowance for trade-ins, my pilot program would start at minimal numbers, whatever you figure you can retail the refurb for less all the costs and profit margin and at least another 20% from there. There are not a lot of options for customers to move their old speakers. I have both bought and sold Axiom speakers on Ebay and it was a pain in the ass and they really just dont do much money to begin with and by the time your done paying the seller fees and PayPal fees you dont end up with much. Unless you have a friend that wants to buy them there arent many options. I just bought an Epic system and tried to sell a pair of M3's on Ebay, they did not sell and I got lucky that a friend bought them but I would much rather have sent them to you using boxes you supplied, for a discount on my new system. Clean, simple and easy, and I would have been happy with whatever (within some sort of reason) you offered. There is a lot of value in having a guaranteed buyer at a guaranteed price who is making shipping easy and wont call or email back later with ridiculous complaints. That value is a big advantage to you in valuing the trade-in. Third, I dont believe that shipping necessarily has to be included when selling refurbs. Taking the shipping cost out of the price will certainly make it appear a better deal and some customers may even pay less for shipping than the cost you had included. I would have no problem paying the shipping as long as the deal as a whole was still good.

The numbers might need some adjustment after experiencing the program in operation, but I'd think that a refurb discount averaging about 30% with an allowance to the owner doing the trade-up averaging about 50% should work well and make a complete program when added to the 10% Factory Outlet and 5% five item allowances.

Call me a cheap bugger, but I would be looking at $50% off new as a starting point, + a bit of a premium for the warranty, maybe 10%.

Do you differentiate between something less than a year old and something 4 years old? How about V1 vs V2 vs V3? I would view V1 as having almost no trade in or resale value.

Thinking more, 30% off on a pair of V3 speakers not more than a year old with the balance of the warranty would feel like a good deal to me.

Just random thoughts...

_________________________
Fred

-------Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

I have been playing around with some numbers. For the trade-in side of our Upgrade Pilot Program I am looking at starting with the original purchase price and then using a reducing percentage for the trade-in value based on age and version. What I have come up with so far is the following on the trade-in side for v3:1. First month 100% of purchase price2. Second month 90% of purchase price3. Third month 89% of purchase price declining 1% per month thereafter4. Trade-ins would only be available to the original purchaser5. The trade-in must be for a higher model in A-stock only6. The product must be returned in its original pack (we have pack available to purchase if needed)7. The cost of the shipping back is not included but our favourably priced prepaid shipping labels can be used

For v2 and earlier series products being traded-in I am looking at the following:1. 55% of the original purchase price for product purchased in 20102. 50% of the original purchase price for product purchased in 2009 and reducing 5% per year thereafter (2008 = 45%, 2007 = 40%, and so forth) 3. Trade-ins would only be available to the original purchaser4. The trade-in must be for a higher or the same model in v3 A-stock only5. The product must be returned in its original pack (we have pack available to purchase if needed)6. The cost of the shipping back is not included but our favourably priced prepaid shipping labels can be used

I am still pondering how to deal with the condition of the trade-in. All of the above assumes the product is in excellent or at least very good condition. Some sort of percentage less for minor blemishes and another for really rough around the edges could be incorporated. We will create a web page that works out your percentage of trade-in value from your original purchase price by putting in the particulars about your product.

On the Refurb Store side all products sold in the Refurb Store will include the shipping, just like our new products, and will come with a 3 year warranty.

Not quite what I was getting at. It would be nice to be able to trade a older model tower for a bookshelf, or an extra pair of something for surrounds. But I understand why that wouldn't be to Axiom's advantage.

Ian, I've just been playing with those numbers a bit and they look good as far as I've gone. One thought on the "higher model"(or same for V2)requirement. If the primary characteristic of a "trade-up" is purchasing a higher cost model, could this be phrased as cost in relation to trade-in value, rather than than in relation to model numbers(say, the new model must cost at least 20% more than the trade-in value). For example, an older M50 or M60 with a trade-in value around $200-$300 could be traded-in on new M22s or a new VP160.

John makes a very good point here. It really is not about versions and models but about dollar values. To trade in say a pair of M60s for 2pr of QS8s falls into the upgrade category in terms of dollars. We really just need the original new selling price of the trade-ins to be less than the current selling price of the upgrades by some margin to make all the numbers work. I will work out what that margin needs to be and make this modification to the pilot program.

That would run me about $800 to trade up my 2 year old (I think) EP350 with custom vinyl finish to an EP500 with custom vinyl finish. I could probably live with that, as soon as I have a spare $800, that is.

Would an EP500 really be that much better than the EP350? I feel like I'm abusing it when I play the newest Tron movie at reference levels.

John makes a very good point here. It really is not about versions and models but about dollar values. To trade in say a pair of M60s for 2pr of QS8s falls into the upgrade category in terms of dollars. We really just need the original new selling price of the trade-ins to be less than the current selling price of the upgrades by some margin to make all the numbers work. I will work out what that margin needs to be and make this modification to the pilot program.

This seems to be much like the previous incarnation of the trade-up provision and I would guess how popular a particular model that has been returned might be for ease of resale. I, for one, who have a VP160, might be interested in trading in mine with the black oak finish for a VP160 in the custom "high gloss" black. Would this be feasible?

I like Casey and JohnK's ideas about basing the upgrade on pricing rather than model; the custom finish angle seems like something that could be popular in this scenario. It gives existing M80 V3 owners somewhere to upgrade, maybe.

The EP350 and EP500 have a lot of differences. They look the same because they share the same cabinet but the EP500 has almost double the amp power, a longer x-max woofer, and a way more sophisticated control of the frequency response and max output limiting. This means it plays a lot louder, a lot lower, and never gives you a hint of straining. I think you would find it a nice upgrade.

The EP350 and EP500 have a lot of differences. They look the same because they share the same cabinet but the EP500 has almost double the amp power, a longer x-max woofer, and a way more sophisticated control of the frequency response and max output limiting. This means it plays a lot louder, a lot lower, and never gives you a hint of straining. I think you would find it a nice upgrade.

Thanks. I know what my next upgrade will probably be then, if I can get it for that price range (around $800). I've still got the original shipping box. I'm strapped for cash until November when I'll have my new TV paid off.

What about starting a wish list?I'm alot closer to point A than B and I really really want what the next guy wants to trade up.It could serve dual purpose, saving you freight and me on the final invoice.I see some obvious trust issues here but...

We have worked up the details of the Upgrade Pilot Program. Here is a link to the page Upgrade . Once we have some trade-ins back at the factory we will open the Refurb Store and see how it works out on that side of the equation. Thanks to everyone for your participation in getting this project ready for testing.

I doubt I can swing any upgrades for the time being, but I'm certainly interested in seeing how this pilot program plays out. If we can keep it around, I think this will help me a lot. Amie and Eric, you're funny.

I would have loved to get a few bucks out of my VP150 when I upgraded to the VP180 (which in turn I probably should/could have waited for the VP160). Oh well, the VP150 sites idle waiting for a resurection into service again some point in the future.