Posted 5 years ago on Nov. 9, 2012, 5:07 a.m. EST by Middleaged
(5140)
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I'm just a an Everyman, but here is a case where we should chip in and define 10 or less broad catagories to focus on. Probably you want 4-6 broad catagories. Below is an outline from WSmith. I will Reply with a Cut Down Verision. We all should Get to 3 Broad but Narrow Catagories ... In order to build Coalitions.**

1) Labor/Employment
Give Labor a seat at the table
Institute "WPA" National Work Program
Livable Wage to replace minimum wage
Open-Option Union Membership for all work/labor

84 Comments

We already have most of this.... Do you even know how many laws and regulations we have? You think people and agencies just run around free... well they DON'T. There are plenty of protections for consumers, patients, and students. Ever heard of the Supreme Court, BBB, watchdog journalism, and the police? You're much more safe in America than MANY other countries.

The Reason that the world's Largest Financial Fraud has not resulted in big investigations and Convitions: Congressional Corruption, and inaction of President Obama to create a huge Task Force of FBI Investigators in Mortgage Fraud. Quote below from William K. Black, Lawyer, former federal bank regulator and current professor UMKC.

"So your question is, so why, this is the greatest financial crime in the history of the world and no one senior, at any of the major places that drove the crisis, has gone to jail? In fact, no one has been indicted. There were some at Bear Stearns, for the real specialized stuff, but for the basic fraud we are talking about, no one has even been charged with a crime. What has happened? And the answer, the first answer is it all has to start with the regulators. The regulators have to serve as the Sherpas on something like this, in criminal prosecution. The Sherpas of course, are the folks that help you get to the top of the Himalayan Mountains. And this is a hard task, it is hard to prosecute sophisticated white-collar crimes, and they do have the best criminal defense lawyers in the world. So it is not an easy thing. And getting those thousand plus felony convictions in the Savings and Loan crisis, was a massive success for which the Department of Justice, the FBI and the agencies deserve a lot of credit. What do the Sherpas do? The Sherpas do two functions. One, they do the heavy lifting and in this context, that means they the great bulk of the investigative work. And two, they serve as the guides, they have the expertise, they’ve seen this before, they know what works and what does not. And in this context, that means they have expertise in the fraud mechanisms, the fraud schemes, identifying it and explaining it. And so a criminal referral is not just a sort of a useful thing, it is the absolutely essential thing. Criminal referral in our era might be twenty to thirty pages and have two hundred to three hundred pages of attachments of all the key documents. It would be the roadmap to continue this metaphor that says, here’s the fraud, here’s how it works, here are the key people, here is where the money moved, here are the key documents to be able to prove the case. Here are the key witnesses, this is how you contact them, right? And I told you that we went to zero criminal referrals from well over ten thousand. That has made it impossible for the FBI and the justice department to have any substantial success. But of course, this is not the question of them simply not having substantial success, they ain’t having no success. And there you have to look at what, after a brilliant start with this September 2004 warning, with no help from the regulators, well you could not get any significant number of FBI agents assigned in the Bush Administration, to investigate these cases."

"That meant that as recently as fiscal year 2007, there were nationwide, only 120 FBI agents working all mortgage fraud cases. To give you a comparison, at the peak of the Savings and Loan Crisis, there were 1,000 FBI agents working the cases."

"So the FBI says we got to start going after the big guys at which point Bush’s Attorney General Mukasey says no, he refuses to even create a National Task Force against mortgage fraud, saying famously, this is simply the equivalent of, and I am quoting again, “White Collar Street Crime,” little tiny stuff."

" And they are nowhere near the numbers required and so unless something dramatic or radical changes, this is going to be the greatest case of elite fraud with impunity in the history of the world."

"they lied and then sold the assets to Fannie and Freddie by making acts of deceit, which is of course, the key element of fraud."

"The Taylor case, and it refers to a pretty obscure mortgage-banking firm in the southeast. Ten people have been convicted who were officers. But the only reason they were convicted was because these people after thousands of acts of fraud, over a ten-year period, tried to defraud the TARP Program and the Special Inspector General to the TARP Program, which is called SIGTARP, was very good. He has since left the government service. And they found this and they made the criminal referral. What we discovered in the course of that, was that Fanny Mae discovered this fraud in 2000 but refused to make a criminal referral."

My Opinion, Topics should be narrowed to avoid Social Issues. Many people will have strong feelings and strong opinions on Social Issues. Social Issues have made head way over the years and their are many people active in this area. So here is my List of topics:

Good Point. This might be approporate under Corporate Reform. I've looked at the List to try to shorten it. Could be Corporate Reform as a topic can contain many, many points, and get Broad Public Support.

I have contributed to NPR before. The have gone soft on war. Bush Admin Hammered them. That is why Bill Moyers left. They may still have a Bush appointee micro managing them.

They do. I remember hearing about the change in management during the Bush reign of terror. It seems so dictatorial to have politicians appointing news personnel. Something just as likely to be seen in north Korea. Notice Obama hasn't done anything to fix it. At least PBS is fighting back.

I'm Visualizing the League of Women Voters here. I was too young to understand what was going on. But apparently I know 1) That Petitions build support 2) That building Coalitions and Networks is "VERY POWERFUL" and the "ONLY WAY TOWARD CHANGE".

Naw, Grassroot is all about, having meetings at houses, bringing a dish to serve, networking, and teaching about the political process.

Don't really need Churches (and they are sitting on their asses), so no rent money or donations are needed. We can have virtual Meetings in the 21st Century. Emails keep the flow going.

Yes.

1) Someone will pay for Post Card mailing in your zip code.
2) Someone will buy paper.
3) Someone will buy ink or printer cartridges.
4) Someone has to own a computer or go to an Internet Cafe.
5) You can live in Costa Rica or Panama.

I have limited focus. I could get something in Paypal if guys could use it locally to print off and mail post card.

Wait, I guess I could be part of the post card mailing chain. We would also want to get Marketing info ...demographics on who to mail to ... Target Communities most likely to listen, become educated, question congress and state government, or who might go to the MSM with questions and concerns...etc.

But not sure what I am signing up for. I may be out of country. Hopefully I could use financial links while out of country to reach communities. I've not wanted to risk account info and account transactions overseas until now.

But yeah, we could set up an account. I don't know how flexible it is toward paying - 1) unknown activist in unknown places 2) You might be saying & everyone thinking - Hey, $20 to a guy with a home computer is grassroots and can get many mailings out, and cheaper.

So maybe the Intention has to be stated.

Maybe the Intention is to send cash & have printed privately & have mailed Privately, and to therefore multiply the effect.

I'm with you. I have $50 to invest monthly or every 3 months. I can offer some expertise or ground work. Perhaps if I am out of country I would still be able to do the ground work and make the process better that otherwise.

Not sure if there are more options than Paypal ...maybe I can consider this tomorrow. There must be more by now. Western union was the old way, worked on percentage, very expensive.... I don't think Bitcoin is viable, but it is oriented to trading services I think.

I know if I am overseas I can set up a mail service or a freight forwarding service. They charge a lot of money per month like over $100 at least.

Social issue. I am not strong on this one either. We have civil courts and we have criminal courts. Women get sexual harrassment and they go to civil court, maybe be out of a job, and may have a reputation then, and may not find a similar job with similar pay. People hurt or damaged may not be made whole by the courts. In the case of Corporations they have piles of money to defend themselves.

10 is an Issue that has been fought with support over many years. I hate to back off on a Topic, but if people don't feel Social Issues are the Burning Topics ... then they will not be a priority. They won't have a Groundswell of Support.

OWS as a movement is part of an era that supports Individual Rights, but Social Issues may not be the Burning Issues.

Elizabeth Warren was working one side of this issue. Corporations pick on poor people, rip them off, loan them money at high-high interest rates, cash their checks for high percentages,...But sounds like Many are being discrimated against because they are poor and want to go to College, get loans at high-high interest rates, then get credit cards at College with high-high interest rates.

What about the discrimination against poor people, who didn't understand what a house mortgage forclosure was going to do them. (were they really that stupid, or did they know they would lose the house and just wanted to work the system for a while?)

Discrimination against Pension Fund owners that lost all their money or half of it in 2008 financial crisis. Other people loss pension and Jobs after private equity firm buys out the firm. Pensions get lost when plants close down I guess. heard there was a few local factories of big name corporations in trucks & Agriculture local here ...Plants closed and a few of them are still smarting from loss of pension after 20 years or more.

Portable Pensions are better. These days if you don't work for the government you may never see any pension. Is that discrimination? I don't know. But we do have a government pension guarentee program, but it only works if the company endures. What if your company pension is disolved after you already retired. maybe the Pension Guarentee programs helps with partial funds.

Seems like American Capitalism just doesn't care about people when they get sick, or lose a pension, or go bancrupt from a major medical event, or have to sue a corporation for redress.

Maybe this comes under Person RIghts, Individual Rights, or Civil RIghts that all humans should have. Rights seem to protect us from situations that can otherwise bring us to our lowest level of despair.

not a trick proposal, just what it says. Discrimination prevention. Like traffic lights and moving violations prevent reckless driving. Discrimination has many facets and some go completely ignored, others go unprosecuted. Discrimination laws need to be Comprehensive and Enforced. The penalties? Probably less draconian than Stand Your Ground allows.

Well, the reason that I am asking is that we have laws for that now. It doesn't seem to stop it. So, what I am looking for are details. Because there is a specific group of people that I am looking at that get nailed repeatedly. If you flip it, is there a point between discrimination and somebody screaming about how their first amendment rights have been violated. That would be an old argument. I am expecting some brilliant thought process that addresses it.

So here's my problem, if I wanted to jot a note down to address the problem of current discrimination law's failure to address all forms of discrimination, what do I write? I chose "Criminalize all discrimination." I would not post it like that because as you rightly point out it can be confusing, but I didn't post it.

Tonight I saw a 20/20 segment on corporate job seeking tips. It said not to show up to the interview with a baby seat in your car, because many corps have a "No Moms" hiring policy, but they can't say it, and they check your fucking car! The long poll lines in poor and/or minority neighborhoods we saw Tuesday. Help wanted advertisements that restrict applicants who have been unemployed for more than their acceptable length of time. These are just a small example of crimes that cause great harm and loss, which rarely if ever have consequences. It's just "the way it is."

As for first amendment rights: Where's my freedom from the coming sensory rape of pseudo-christian Xmas commercialism? Where's my freedom to not be assaulted by some RW extremist pig whipped into frenzy by RW hate radio about my VOTE OBAMA-BIDEN lawn sign?

I think it's wonderful that 20/20 aired a segment that illustrates the problem of being a parent. We hear an awful lot of (crap) about women who are not qualified to apply for corporate jobs that are viewed as attempting to jack the system if they have children. However, that is also an unwritten rule for those women as well. There are those women that will tell you that they have one child when they have five. They do this to secure housing as well. Help wanted advertisements that are placed to look as if they are hiring when they have no intention of hiring American citizens.

As for first amendment rights: You either have to be willing to face those objections or nothing is resolved.

Looking the List over, bottom to top, it is not a bad first list at all.

I feel that Labor is not the priority to push at this time. I think Corporations are so out of control, hedge fund are way gone, Private Equity is way gone, wall street is way gone, ...just think we need to protect the base of US Business or Global Business ...before Labor.

If there are no businesses there is nothing left for labor. Also Exceutive Compensation in Corpoations will loot and therefore drive the corporation into the ground ...leaving the Labor force without a future.

Explain to me how this is going to work. The drug courts treat substance abuse as a disease. Are you familiar with the arguments here? How familiar are you with substance abuse treatment centers? Do you see a conflict between the potential tax dollars and treatment? What about the implementation of needle exchange centers?

Intent is that debate set the topics, and so your question is appropriate. I'm not the best to argue this one. Kind of see it as a Liberal Policy that has been done in Europe mainly.

**I am concerned with people will game the system, and that young people would actually get turned on to hard drugs if the needles were not used on premises of a clinic. Young Americans are stupid sometimes there is a real risk here.

** I would not like Needle Exchange without determination that person is not sharing, that person is addict, and mandate muliple visits for counseling before entry to a program.

** Clearly Clinics set up in Cities are unpopular, would not reach country addicts (hope we don't have those), would be run by Nurses, Would HAVE to Increase government budgets some where. Being a Federal Program, this would be Federal HHS Budget, hopefully would not become a listed Subsidy under federal catalog

This Social issue might prove unpopular. Might prove impossible to get general agreement from any voters except in big cities.

There is support behind the decriminalize Marijuanna Issue. That could be the galvanizing central issue.

again, not a trick. Just removal of the words crime and criminal and penal and all the subsequent damage and costs they bring. Of course, like everything in life, exceptions remain. Do you do this just for the sake of arguing, or do you have serious motivations/suspicions? It was a rough list, notes, not meant for posting.

The devil is in the details. I have serious suspicions. I expect there to be something well thought out besides puff puff pass. I provided links that address this specific issue. That makes it suspect. Understand?

These are questions that need to be asked of future candidates. If you cannot handle the questions that I am asking now, you are going to be so screwed later on down the road.

Hell, I would have run if I would have thought I had the opportunity to really give that man something to cry about.

No. I am good with decriminalization as long as all of the other things are in place. There comes a point when compartmentalization destroys that which one hopes to obtain. Many of these issues overlap. What this essentially means is that you don't have to go through reinventing the wheel. You are not left to build a coalition because it already exists. Secondly, and more importantly, in order to achieve support from opposition then one needs to be aware of the problems that are already in existence with what you have currently (ex:rehabs).

My stance on this remains the same as it always has. There are three avenues to pursue and each of them have vastly different consequences. If you bring me some BS on prohibition as an example-I can knock it down. If you tell me that legalization of marijuana will end the killings in Mexico-I can knock it down. If you tell me that legalization of drugs in general will end all crime or drug related crime-I can knock it down. Do not present someone in a suit with a license as respectable and then discuss drug dealers as criminals. The only difference is that license and taxes.

Lastly, probably shouldn't have posted it then. Questions are most appropriate. Had I wanted to raise all kinds of hell simply for raising hell then my posts would have been drastically different.

I have not been fighting to legalize pot since they outlawed it, but I've been on the ground floor since pot started filling up all our prisons. So it feels like "reinventing the wheel" amongst a bunch of [squares.]

"...same as it always has." ??

Prohibition IS an example, legalization WILL drastically reduce crime in Mexico and at home (criminal and penal), and regulation will keep it clean and taxes will balance our budget.

Establishment tobacco and alcohol are the major killers and cost-ers, and legal. Hypocrisy X 1000. Street "drugs" were criminalized because of the propensity of dissidents taking them.

How many are in there for smoking a joint? How many are in there for a small amount of marijuana that did not violate parole?

You have no fucking idea who is there for what. The stats that are available come from the DOJ and they say exactly what I have said before. There is a history. Many of these individuals have a prior history of violent crimes. Those stats that are collected from others, simply in the way they are collected, neglect other cases moving through the system or priors. They acknowledge this. This is why "squares" laugh at you. It feels like "reinventing the wheel" because you have failed to acknowledge these other components. :/

Yes, dear, same as it always has been.

No, prohibition is NOT an example. Fact, they weren't collecting data of who was drinking what prior to. Fact, it only impacted those in the "working class" areas. This can be verified by looking at the raids. It was never intended to actually stop it but rather to hide it from public view. So, the middle class didn't have to see it or even be aware that it existed at all.

Legalization of marijuana will not reduce crime in Mexico because the killings are not about marijuana. Period.

Regulation? Taxes? Are you for real?

Let's not bullshit each other. You will recite whatever you think will work so that you have a shot at getting high without getting popped. That's cool. But, lets cut the shit.

BTW - on Buckley : One of very few individuals I have felt like smacking across the face with a 2x4 the very 1st time I came across him - his on air presence. Can't understand to this day - why most others did not or do not feel the same way.

Talking about WFB ~ BUCKLEY: He was a very interesting RW character, but he mostly made sense, wrong sense mostly. Today's RW CONs don't bother making sense. They are saying that they lost because Obama gave voters cell phones, and that he promised URBAN voters more presents.

Support or oppose issues. Like oppose the current legalization of usury - hell even the national debt is charging usurious interest. How do you pay off the national debt - when you can't even make the interest payments?

You do not think that usury is a major problem? You don't think it is used to keep the people in debt? The national debt - to me - is a farce - money the nation owes to itself. Nothing to stop the nation from abolishing it then - Hey? Smoke and mirrors.

But the usury practiced by private for profit concerns is very real and crippling.

What happened there Lil Buckaroo? Just figure out that I was right on the stats? The difference is intent and guess what it will be in the future? Same. See, now that it is legal under an ounce in one state (Colorado), the manufacturing and license to sell must be acquired to be legit. So, over time what will happen if you are caught dealing without a license? My gawd it might cut into the profit. So, in the future you might find that the biggest backers for stiffer penalties may very well be the new legit dealers. Yeah? Further, it doesn't stop the crimes of theft, burglary etc. to drum up the money to buy it. If it doesn't sell cheaply enough then you are going to still have a little underground market. In fact, you may have that anyway.

"No, prohibition... " "was never intended to actually stop it but rather to hide it from public view."

Yes, the "establishment" appeased the trend and used it to make money and kill off some rivals.

Kinda like what is going to happen here, yeah?

If the black market is ended, why will the Mexican killings continue???

Because, hon, they aren't killing people over marijuana.

Regulation and taxes are real right now! They neeeeed to be expanded!!

Yes, they are real right now. They really suck in every area. More importantly, it leads the government to write checks for money they don't have yet.

You have some mental issues, possibly RepubliCon ones since soo many correlate. PROGRESS! End the Bogus War on Drugs!!!!!!!!

I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly: You don't have the stats. You were not aware of the methods that are used in Europe. You are not aware of the other organizations in the US that are trying to implement the same programs in the US. Failure on your part to do this research and, thus, making you feel all lonely without any other coalitions is because of "squares".

Funny, Goal can be to increase US Wages and Employment, but as a Coalition ... we might not want to focus on that in the first 4 years.

Of course - we want higher wages and fuller employment.

So what am I saying?

Corporations are looting through Compensation packages This means they are hidding many ways that they are compensated. And ...they will look you in the face ...blank faced ...without letting on that they hide current compensation ...and that they hide Severence packages about pensions and retirement (deffered wages, deffered bonus', golden parachutes)

The Looting of Coproations is so hidden in financial schemes that we are totally unaware of them. Of course this increases the Corpoate Administrative cost.

History tells me your sentiment about putting labor on the back burner is always the solution that middle America loves to put forward after their candidate is elected with labor's help. While things are always changing, they seem to always be staying the same. Gotta love it!

You sound like you know what the history says. I don't feel good about this at all - listening to your statement about History.

America is warped from the get go. America in it'self is a misnomer. You have Canada, Central America, South America, Mexico. The US is not America... only part.

Strategy JesseHeffran!

Obviously the Corporation has many long term Strategies. YOU will not get an opportunity to provide input to them. I won't either.

So what do we have? We can concentrate on Corporations, Laws of Incorporation, State Laws Of Incorporation, Regulation of Corporpotation, Fraud & Abuse of Corporations, Whistleblowers of Coporations, ...Loss of Employement of Coporations, ....Loss of Manufacturing in the US, ... Loss of light manufacturing in the US, loss of textiles in the US, Loss of agriculture in the US, ...

1) Perhaps I am hoping for a Merchant Policy like in the 18-1900.
2) Perhaps I am hoping for an Industiral Policy that taxes Imports to protect Industry.
3) Perhaps I am hoping for National Incentives, National Loans, National Grants, National Tax Credits, National Project that will brong all US Voters to labor for energy, space exploration, heavy manufacturing, High Tech manufacturing, ... Or we can just all get behind Walmart!!!##@@@$$%%%???

What do you think. Have you got a pet US Project for r esearch and developement?

You know what i meant. So I used the USA slang for what we call our nation, America. Yes, It does disregard all other nations on the two continents, but it is slang that we use when addressing other country men, oops I meant country people. See, I suck at political correctness.

I like your tariffs idea but nothing is better than raising the minimum wage.

It boggles the mind why people are almost ashamed to redress their gov't for their fair share of the American pie.The biggest scam the American people have been induced to believe is that the government is not supposed to be used to negotiate for better wages. I have worked in many industries and have yet worked in a factory that made money. And I don't mean making profit but making actual dollar bills. Only place that makes money is the gov't so the only place you are going to get more money is from the government. No where in the Constitution does it say private industry gets the authority "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin,". It is government policies that says who gets what and who pays what, but here we are supposedly believing we are at the mercy of private individuals. Raise the minimum wage so it would induce people to work. Giving tax credits seems to have the opposite effect. If I make a little money and get lot's of tax credits then I have no incentive to work more than what is needed to be eligible and less than what is needed to stay in the tax bracket that allows the credit.

Sorry, if I'm not making sense right now, but i just got off work and am exhausted.

You make good sense. I actually changed my opinion over night. I think Labor Rights should be on the Topics.

I think it can be addressed in a couple different ways. We always had worker rights since the 1960s. They were built up over 100 years or so. The right to Unionize. Minimum wages. Fair wages. Safety. Reasonable hours with breaks.

I think you have a great point also about our culture. Corporations are creating money in our banks. The do it for free after being recognized as either a State Bank or a Federal Bank. Corporations are getting their profits, their executives are looting the corporation.

Therefore, we should be demanding to be recognized as workers and demand decent wages and decent benefits. We demand Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment benefits, and Obama Care I guess. Mostly I want portable health care at competitive prices with reasonable benefit maximums. I actually think we need price controls on medical.

Yes, the conservative have created a culture of shame about work, wages, benefits.

That's because it's the conservatives that are working. It has always been the conservatives that did the labor in this country; you can thank them for whatever labor rights we do have - although admittedly - they have receded in recent years, primarily under Democrats (in my area). I've reconsidered this issue also; I think they should raise the minimum wage to at least 12 bucks, nationwide.

Is it possible that Conservative are enablers of the Looting of the Corporations? Is it possible that the Work Ethic in the US hides the bad deals that Leveraged Buyout leave the taxpayer with?

I am conservative in some ways. I left my family at 18, ended up putting myself through college. I made my money and don't really share it since Idon't have much. If I had kids, I would go crazy keeping all my money and making them cook food from scratch to save money. Maybe I'd have become a kind of zealot or something.

I'm kind of conservative about wasteful spending in government. After all these years of watch defense budget grow and seeing the fraud, disappearing funds, no bid contracts, weapon systems proliferation, congress pushing for defense contracts not requested by the military.... what a waste. Defense budget should be cut in half.

Financial Schemes appear anytime there is a big pile of money. Uncle sugar has the biggest pile.

There are sure a lot of bad deals that the government has gotten into. I guess conservative and liberals can agree on a bad deal if they are pointed out (except in congress, or the people that made the deal)

Yea, but see I don't think of the rich as conservative - you don't get to where these people are thinking like a conservative, although they may very well employ a conservative to do their bidding. And I don't see it as a religious thing, either. To be truly religious today, requires a relatively open mind and generous spirit, or more of a liberal mindset.

Great points. You have some insight. The weird thing is maybe conservatives never pushed for worker rights, union rights, work safety, individual rights, civil rights, end of VIetnam war, social security, medicare, unemplyment, etc.

Sure congress signed off on those things. But my understanding is that it was people power or activists that made those things happen.

I beg to differ - it was the poor conservatives who worked those jobs, that demanded those rights - it was the conservative who rose as the oppressed to embrace individualism over 500 years ago; what you label as 60s styled "civil rights" is but the demand of an extended civility already in existence that we brought to this country; Vietnam? It was the poor who went to war, the rich collegiate progressives opted out... social security, medicare, unemployment... all designed for the conservative poor who, during this particular era, self identified not as "conservative," despite their conservative-ism, but as working class, northern, blue-dog styled, democrats - we were Democrats.

Activists... what is an activist? It's someone who performs publicly, theoretically, in defense of others... we, the poor conservatives, former democrats, are those others, that the Democrats used to defend.

Let me put this another way... the northern blue-dog democrats have since morphed into "conservative" - and derivatives thereof - because we were unable to embrace the Rep party of big business. At present we are an intermediate political culture, largely ignored - and generally shit on - by both parties.

Have you ever studied Humanism? As the movement arose separately yet coincidentally with the Reformation?

I suppose I should have asked, have you ever studied the history of the Humanist movement which began some 500 years ago, as coincides with the Reformation? In terms of its influence on the Reformation?

Good reply. Yes, maybe I should consider this a bit. In one sense this is a vervy hard working country with Christian values. I can almost imagine the country East of DC and West of California as working people with traditional values.

But I'm not that politically aware. I don't know state politics at all. I always said the US was mostly Democract, but that not enough people vote to make it obvious.

Then I guess you might say Texas is a big business republican state. Oil State. I noticed ND was a Red State too.

Then, do you call yourself a progressive conservative. This gets complicated. Then a Liberal would be someone who is a Libertine perhaps. Or a Liberal might be permissive parent. Or a Liberal might be someone who is a Humanist. A conservative would perhaps be a Behaviorist and an Athoritarian or Athoritative Parent.

Honestly, I don't see how a state like Ohio can vote blue, either. Because everyone I have ever talked to about Ohio over the years was running from their impoverished state. With all the religiously minded working class poor of PA, blue is hard to grasp there too - perhaps they have large urban minority populations who are voting black and brown?

I call myself a paleo-conservative. Meaning that I believe conservative, as the path of prudence, is the natural state of mankind. I am socially or behaviorally liberal and although I consider myself conservative, I do not align with the ideals or current goals of the Conservative Party. I hate Leftist Democrats with a passion and I do not like the party of big business, either.

I suppose I could label myself a party of one but that is not true - there are millions very much like me, who this year made a choice to vote either left or right; they are motivated by personal circumstance and individual interpretation of the scam we pass off as "politics."

Certainly is a scam. I actually think people prefer values of the third parties, but don't want to vote third. Well you could be branded a liberal if you live with a woman unmarried or many other social faux pas. Conservatives have cast a lot of judgements on me, but some of them were Democrat conservatives. I suppose we judge other people to protect our families and ourselves from other people.

I sort of hear you saying you are a conservative because you know what is right and wrong for yourself. But that isn't much of a description. Maybe you live a simple life and that makes you a conservative in your own eyes. I suppose a Buddhist or a Monk would be a conservative. Quakers, Menonites, Amish.

Seems like it would be conservative to avoid busy bodies at Church, or to not toerlate gosip from church people.

Socially liberal - live and let live - I don't believe we have a right to forcibly impose our will on others. I'm not as you envision - controlling - in fact, in my private world, which I alone command, I long ago deemed that there shall never be any "rules."

But I think conservatively - there is no room for flightiness, no room for risk that has not been properly evaluated and hedged to our favor - for the working class it has always been a matter of survival.

Actually, on a conversational basis I relate very well to all - everyone from the professor to the biker, with very few difficulties.

You're asking me how to invest? Geez... Ok, so some conservative thoughts... the only way to protect the value of the dollar is to dump it; is gold overpriced ? Yea, probably. Think real estate and shop wisely - you can take a beating in real estate and if that's not for you, look west with your dollars... think midwest utilities, or natural gas, or something. The market will be skittish with the Obama win for a while... and people who invest conservatively don't gamble much, meaning they tend to avoid tech stocks. They also tend to look to dividends to provide later income, etc. The best advice you can get is from a conservative investor - a broker is a broker, the very nature of his business is not conservative - but the conservatives are the ones who survived '08 to retire last year at 45, to commit themselves to their one real love - which is guitar.

You can probably help me. I sort of worry about the future and the future value of the US Dollar. Government treasuries don't pay and won't pay for many years. No Interest Rate for CDs or Savings accounts. Looked at Gold Coins a little last month. Don't really think they are great as they would be inconvienent to use as money under 99% of circumstances. But guess getting some & putting in a safe deposit box might be conservative move. Any extra insight here?