If we gave warnings to everyone who trolls, the server would be overloaded with them.

But - feel free to make a suggestion in the "forum improvements" thread.

Look. A trolling post is not a big deal. But only trolling posts, where someone has established a pattern of being only a troll .... that is a tumor to be excised. The biggest cancers on any site are the trolls, who hide behind spineless rules. Joaguin should be banned. Cigar banned. Compel folks to be able to bring information with them if they want to post.

We are big boys and girls. We can handle the insults from members who have earned their keep. What we will recoil at with venom are those who have done nothing to build or enhance this platform, but only leech off it.

Well when one dislikes the others comments they are always accused of trolling. I could have said you were trolling when you kept calling a tee-shirt a flag but it would not have been true. Define trolling.

KC

09-25-2012, 07:44 PM

Any sort of content that is posted with the single aim of getting an inflammatory reaction from other members of the forums, is trolling, I think.

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 07:45 PM

Man, that was slick. Couldn't edit my post in the other thread, but came here, and voila !

What is trolling ? Its sniping, with no contribution to the thread. Occasional sniping by established members is no big deal. But when such as Joaguin, or Cigar, establish patterns of only sniping, aka "trolling", a couple Mods ought to be able to look at it and issue a stern warning, along the lines of "contibute some informed opinions, or you are outta here". You can be subjective. Its not a court of law. Just do it with the obvious trolls. Who cares if they whine ? If they argue, then ban them.

Another way to look at is would be reps and thanks. In business, it is known as "always being able to fire the bottom 10%". Lop off the bottom 10% on occasion, in terms of minimal performance with appreciation by other members. Its like flushing the toilet !

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 07:45 PM

Any sort of content that is posted with the single aim of getting an inflammatory reaction from other members of the forums, is trolling, I think.

That defines a lot of what is posted here.

KC

09-25-2012, 07:47 PM

That defines a lot of what is posted here.
I would argue that a good amount of what is posted here is trolling. I don't care, because show me a forum where that doesn't happen, but yes this forum is extremely troll heavy.

People simply can't agree on the meaning of these terms. I think you have to look at the motive of the alleged troll. But that in itself is also difficult.

One also has to look at the external context of the alleged trolling. This is election season after all. That means emotions are running high.

Some alleged trolls are filled with emotions which are difficult to explain. Here's what one alleged troll once wrote on another forum:

I've spent the last half hour typing a response to your question only to repeatedly
delete what I've written while I gather my thoughts. I am pseudo-historian
compared to the men and women against which I measure myself.

I grew up and became a man in an era of American history much like Rome during the reigns of the Five Good Emperors who governed the Empire consecutively for a period of
about 90 years in the first and second centuries of the Common Era. This was the
heighth of Empire. It was quite literally the best of times for a the first
iteration of Western Civilization. For some it was a Golden Age. Imo that span
of time was like the American Era of world history from 1941 to 2001. Others
would say the era lasted from 1945 to 1973.

I was an American patriot who loved a land so dearly that my feelings crossed into nationalism and even chauvinism. I say this to give you perspective on the transformation of my world view.

In 2004 I began to understand that I had been willfully blind in
many ways for almost twenty years. But then, I was in good company.

I knew denial and anger and the other stages of grief for a beloved land. Then for
my own well being I began to detach myself emotionally from the fate of that
land. Rome devolved, split up, and became something else while still calling
itself Roman.

America was a polity the creation of which was based on an
idea. What becomes of that polity when the idea dies?

I think I now understand how the Russian nobility must have felt around the time of the
Russo-Japanese War when the Russian defeat revealed a hollow empire. Similarly,
I think I know how some members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union must
have felt in the mid-1980s when they realized that they had spent seventy years
on the road to no where. Neither the Russian nobility nor the Soviet
intelligentsia could save what they loved.

The land that I loved is gone. And I am aware that the past can never truly be restored.

I am still in love, but now I am in love with the idea on which the polity was originally
based. Individual liberty. This idea was born in Classical Greece, survived for
almost 450 years in the form of the Roman Republic, and appeared again in the
Venetian Republic of the Renaissance.

That idea was refined and distilled during the European Enlightenment by men like Locke, Montesquieu, and Rosseau. The idea became incarnate again with the birth of America and its
Constitution. It spread across a continent, expanded to other races and women,
and spread through the world.

The idea is now being rolled back slowly
with the end of the American Era of the Western Epoch of history. But the idea
won't ever die. It will appear again in some unknown polity among an unknown
people.

Am I too pessimistic? Perhaps, but detachment breeds objectivity.
Some will say that nothing remains the same. This is true. There is a tide in
the affairs of men and women to paraphrase the Bard. And I have seen this all
before in a book by Edward Gibbon.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 07:48 PM

Man, that was slick. Couldn't edit my post in the other thread, but came here, and voila !

What is trolling ? Its sniping, with no contribution to the thread. Occasional sniping by established members is no big deal. But when such as Joaguin, or Cigar, establish patterns of only sniping, aka "trolling", a couple Mods ought to be able to look at it and issue a stern warning, along the lines of "contibute some informed opinions, or you are outta here". You can be subjective. Its not a court of law. Just do it with the obvious trolls. Who cares if they whine ? If they argue, then ban them.

Another way to look at is would be reps and thanks. In business, it is known as "always being able to fire the bottom 10%". Lop off the bottom 10% on occasion, in terms of minimal performance with appreciation by other members. Its like flushing the toilet !

Then pretty much everyone will be subject to trolling accusations at some point because it happens more than frequently by most members.

First it would be a moderating nightmare, but I'm not trying to govern by convenience either. Second, it would IMO really ratchet down the activity, restrict the activity to be more accurate. Is that what we want - a restrictive forum?

JohnAdams

09-25-2012, 07:50 PM

A term that's oft used, present and undefined.

What is "trolling" and how should TPF deal with it?

I thought the TOS here we pretty clear on what trolling is and what the penalties for it were.

That said however for an example of trolling, just look at just about any liberal post, and you'll see it. ;) Especially when it's a post defending the almighty OBAMA

KC

09-25-2012, 07:51 PM

Then pretty much everyone will be subject to trolling accusations at some point because it happens more than frequently by most members.

First it would be a moderating nightmare, but I'm not trying to govern by convenience either. Second, it would IMO really ratchet down the activity, restrict the activity to be more accurate. Is that what we want - a restrictive forum?

Trying to stop all trolls is a stupid and pointless activity. Trolls are generally a good thing because they tend to unite people against them, giving people something to rally against.

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 07:57 PM

Then pretty much everyone will be subject to trolling accusations at some point because it happens more than frequently by most members.

First it would be a moderating nightmare, but I'm not trying to govern by convenience either. Second, it would IMO really ratchet down the activity, restrict the activity to be more accurate. Is that what we want - a restrictive forum?

No, I had an added caveat. Take a look. Cigar and Joaquin are microscopic when it comes to thanks and reps. I believe at or under 4% on each (thanks vs total posts). If these folks start picking up "reports" for trolling, and they have abysmally low approval, as indicated, its "heave-ho" time. The numbers are there. Your members are talking to you with those numbers.

Fire the bottom 10%. Until even the bottom 10% is credible. Then drink a cold one, and watch a forum run based on competitive standards ....... ;)

Cigar

09-25-2012, 07:57 PM

Cliff Notes?

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 07:58 PM

Trying to stop all trolls is a stupid and pointless activity. Trolls are generally a good thing because they tend to unite people against them, giving people something to rally against.

Agreed sort of.

Here's what I see happening. If we defined and enforced trolling, members would use it to go after other members whom their sharing a debate with because "trolling" is a difficult subject to define.

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 07:58 PM

Trying to stop all trolls is a stupid and pointless activity. Trolls are generally a good thing because they tend to unite people against them, giving people something to rally against.

No. We can have our targets still. We will compel them to elevate their game is all.

Trolls are never good. Never.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 07:59 PM

No, I had an added caveat. Take a look. Cigar and Joaquin are microscopic when it comes to thanks and reps. I believe at or under 4% on each (thanks vs total posts). If these folks start picking up "reports" for trolling, and they have abysmally low approval, as indicated, its "heave-ho" time. The numbers are there. Your members are talking to you with those numbers.

Fire the bottom 10%. Until even the bottom 10% is credible. Then drink a cold one, and watch a forum run based on competitive standards ....... ;)

Fair enough, but first thing's first - define "trolling".

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:01 PM

Some of the folks on here , whether they want to admit it or not, think trolling is posting political opinions that they don't agree with their own. It's a slippery slope to try to enforce these kinds of things. I'd say it's like porn, you know it when you see it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:03 PM

Goose - you make a more than fair point, and so does Goldie.

Clearly HoJ is trolling, but there's not a specific rule against it. I agree, it brings zero value to the table and only incites mudslinging - so I'll throw this out to you guys since it's your forum as much as anyone else's, how should we deal with this?

The OP attacked Obama with the teleprompter meme. It raised the issue. I showed how this rightwing meme worked.

The only troll here is the thread starter, who foolishly used the teleprompter meme and got called on the carpet.

God you conservatives are babies! If you can't take criticism of your dullwitted memes, stop using them.
Facts are the enemy of conservatives.

roadmaster

09-25-2012, 08:07 PM

I see it this way and what I used to do. If a person only comes to a thread only to call a member a name and has nothing to do with the topic then they are trolling. But then again you also have to look through the thread to see if that person was retaliating because you just can't look at all the reports on that one without see if the other person started it.
Opposing opinions are not trolling to me.

KC

09-25-2012, 08:08 PM

Facts are the enemy of conservatives.

Or something I have read, not an exact quote

You racist liberals..

Are clearly trolls because they serve no purpose except to provoke an inflammatory response from someone.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:12 PM

Or something I have read, not an exact quote

Are clearly trolls because they serve no purpose except to provoke an inflammatory response from someone.

If some conservative starts a thread and attacks Obama with the bizarre claim that he uses a teleprompter (wow a president who uses a teleprompter), be prepared to defend that bizarre claim against the facts. Or don't make it.

Conservatives cannot stand having the precious counterfactual memes exposed. It forces them to think. Get used to it.

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 08:13 PM

Any sort of content that is posted with the single aim of getting an inflammatory reaction from other members of the forums, is trolling, I think.

That defines a lot of what is posted here.

I would argue that a good amount of what is posted here is trolling. I don't care, because show me a forum where that doesn't happen, but yes this forum is extremely troll heavy.

Actually, posts/threads made for the sole purpose of eliciting rage are called FLAME-BAITING. Another common forum game. A waste of everyone's time because there's nothing to discuss.

IMO, trolling is when someone drops into the middle of a discussion with a comment like "WELL, THIS THREAD SHIT THE BED, DIDN'T IT!"

Once or twice is bad enough, but a pattern is definitely TROLLING.

URF8

09-25-2012, 08:15 PM

The OP attacked Obama with the teleprompter meme. It raised the issue. I showed how this rightwing meme worked.

The only troll here is the thread starter, who foolishly used the teleprompter meme and got called on the carpet.

God you conservatives are babies! If you can't take criticism of your dullwitted memes, stop using them.
Facts are the enemy of conservatives.

This thread isn't directed at you. It's directed at me.

KC

09-25-2012, 08:16 PM

Actually, posts/threads made for the sole purpose of eliciting rage are called FLAME-BAITING. Another common forum game. A waste of everyone's time because there's nothing to discuss.

IMO, trolling is when someone drops into the middle of a discussion with a comment like "WELL, THIS THREAD SHIT THE BED, DIDN'T IT!"

1) Flame bait is a message posted to a public Internet discussion group, such as a forum, newsgroup or mailing list, with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame") or argument over a topic the "troll" (original poster provoking angry response) often has no real interest in, and finds humour, or entertainment in reactions.

Flame baiting is a form of trolling.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 08:18 PM

Actually, posts/threads made for the sole purpose of eliciting rage are called FLAME-BAITING. Another common forum game. A waste of everyone's time because there's nothing to discuss.

IMO, trolling is when someone drops into the middle of a discussion with a comment like "WELL, THIS THREAD SHIT THE BED, DIDN'T IT!"

Once or twice is bad enough, but a pattern is definitely TROLLING.

Yep that is trolling...LOL.. paybacks suck!!!

roadmaster

09-25-2012, 08:19 PM

Flame baiting is a form of trolling.

So you are against controversial threads? They usually get the most attention and doesn't hurt a site. Many opinions here.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 08:20 PM

I would be more than happy to post examples of both of you (Goldie and SMW) trolling by your definition, but that would only be inciting a negative response and hence by definition "trolling".

I post one "shit the bed" clip and everyone shits the bed for a month.

:rollseyes:

KC

09-25-2012, 08:20 PM

Wikipedia:

In Internet slang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang), a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29#cite_note-2)extraneous (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective), or off-topic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic) messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:21 PM

This thread isn't directed at you. It's directed at me.

Weirdly, Captain Obvious moved my posts about the teleprompter here (I didn't). So I thought he was dropping me a hint!

roadmaster

09-25-2012, 08:22 PM

I would be more than happy to post examples of both of you (Goldie and SMW) trolling by your definition, but that would only be inciting a negative response and hence by definition "trolling".

I post one "shit the bed" clip and everyone shits the bed for a month.

:rollseyes:

Yes, I did see that one.:grin: You were trying to be funny.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 08:22 PM

Weirdly, Captain Obvious moved my posts about the teleprompter here (I didn't). So I thought he was dropping me a hint!

The PM I sent you wasn't hint enough?

Trinnity

09-25-2012, 08:24 PM

I think the more pertinent term is flambaiting. But snarky posts run the gamut. It's up to the mods to decide what is too much, and we let a lot go. We don't want to slip into being like that other place so many came from.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 08:24 PM

I would be more than happy to post examples of both of you (Goldie and SMW) trolling by your definition, but that would only be inciting a negative response and hence by definition "trolling".

I post one "shit the bed" clip and everyone shits the bed for a month.

:rollseyes:

lmfao....sorry, it's hysterical right now...

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:24 PM

No, I had an added caveat. Take a look. Cigar and Joaquin are microscopic when it comes to thanks and reps. I believe at or under 4% on each (thanks vs total posts). If these folks start picking up "reports" for trolling, and they have abysmally low approval, as indicated, its "heave-ho" time. The numbers are there. Your members are talking to you with those numbers.

Fire the bottom 10%. Until even the bottom 10% is credible. Then drink a cold one, and watch a forum run based on competitive standards ....... ;)

Problem with this theory is that some people take those reps and thanks very very seriously. In fact I'd say the more normal people don't give a flying frolick through a rolling donut about their karma points.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:25 PM

The PM I sent you wasn't hint enough?

I try not to read the irate ramblings of defeated conservatives.

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:25 PM

I think the more pertinent term is flambaiting. But snarky posts run the gamut. It's up to the mods to decide what is too much, and we let a lot go. We don't want to slip into being like that other place so many came from.

Snark should be rewarded with thanks / rep. :grin:

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 08:25 PM

I think the more pertinent term is flambaiting. But snarky posts run the gamut. It's up to the mods to decide what is too much, and we let a lot go. We don't want to slip into being like that other place so many came from.

Oh Gawd...heaven forbid!!!!!!!!

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 08:26 PM

I try not to read the irate ramblings of defeated conservatives.

So - is this "trolling"?

KC

09-25-2012, 08:26 PM

So - is this "trolling"?

Absolutely.

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:26 PM

Oh, also time for my usual PSA in these threads - don't forget about the ignore button. If you don't see the value in a person's posts its easy to not read them.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:26 PM

Snark should be rewarded with thanks / rep. :grin:

Especially when the OP opens the door to snark

Trinnity

09-25-2012, 08:26 PM

The OP attacked Obama with the teleprompter meme. It raised the issue. I showed how this rightwing meme worked.

The only troll here is the thread starter, who foolishly used the teleprompter meme and got called on the carpet.
What thread was that?

KC

09-25-2012, 08:28 PM

Oh, also time for my usual PSA in these threads - don't forget about the ignore button. If you don't see the value in a person's posts its easy to not read them.

This.

Responding to a troll post is what gives the troll power. Flame baiting isn't fun if it never catches flame. I'm guilty of falling for flame baiting, but overall it's pretty easy to avoid.

roadmaster

09-25-2012, 08:28 PM

So - is this "trolling"?

No, he called no member a name and he was saying he had no use for our threads.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 08:28 PM

Oh Gawd...heaven forbid!!!!!!!!

Now Goldie - this is what I'm suggesting. On one hand we (and I mean all of us) want a minimally restricted forum but on the other hand what do we do when certain members are essentially just trolling? If those rules are defined and created, they extend to everyone basically.

In a perfect world everyone throws a little mud, drops a few F-bombs, trolls a little then lets it go. Unfortunately some can't and wont let it go, so again - do we turn this place into a more restricted forum?

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 08:30 PM

No, he called no member a name and he was saying he had no use for our threads.

Look, I don't mind if mods move my posts around. But if posters want to start threads with issues in them -- even implied issues (and in fact that thread was a back handed insult to Obama using the "Obama is Actually Stupid" talking point), how the heck can they complain if somebody comments on them? Isn't that sort of the point!

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 08:33 PM

Now Goldie - this is what I'm suggesting. On one hand we (and I mean all of us) want a minimally restricted forum but on the other hand what do we do when certain members are essentially just trolling? If those rules are defined and created, they extend to everyone basically.

In a perfect world everyone throws a little mud, drops a few F-bombs, trolls a little then lets it go. Unfortunately some can't and wont let it go, so again - do we turn this place into a more restricted forum?

There is a line between trolling and freedom. I want unbiased mods who are fair and don't hold grudges against those who disagreed with them...that is what we came from.

Look, I don't mind if mods move my posts around. But if posters want to start threads with issues in them -- even implied issues (and in fact that thread was a back handed insult to Obama using the "Obama is Actually Stupid" talking point), how the heck can they complain if somebody comments on them? Isn't that sort of the point!

Stop whining - I posted a redirect to this thread and asked everyone to move this discussion here as to not hijack that thread. And I PM'd you.

Look, I don't mind if mods move my posts around. But if posters want to start threads with issues in them -- even implied issues (and in fact that thread was a back handed insult to Obama using the "Obama is Actually Stupid" talking point), how the heck can they complain if somebody comments on them? Isn't that sort of the point!

If your response consists of nothing but blatant insults of the OP instead of reasoning then you are effectively posting in order to provoke an emotional response based on a personal attack or an attack of the person's ideology. How is that not trolling?

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 08:36 PM

There is a line between trolling and freedom. I want unbiased mods who are fair and don't hold grudges against those who disagreed with them...that is what we came from.

And I think it's fair to say that mods want members who don't hold grudges when we enforce the rules, but that's an entirely different issue. And it happens, trust me on that.

But since you're the authority on trolling and freedom - define "trolling". Is it only what you think is trolling and maybe not what others think?

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:36 PM

So - is this "trolling"?

I'd call it a joke (apparently an ineffectual one), but to each his own.

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 08:41 PM

Problem with this theory is that some people take those reps and thanks very very seriously. In fact I'd say the more normal people don't give a flying frolick through a rolling donut about their karma points.

Except look at the standards I offered. Off the top of my head, you re at about 7% thanks. And not likely racking up complaints.

Now let's look at my alleged trolls. Joaquin the moron troll. Cigar the mindless troll. J is at like 2%. Cigar at 4%. Many of you members would agree that they bring nothing but BS to the table.

Those of us that do have higher approvals, by the numbers, I suspect fewer complaints. Regardless, the losing combination should be high complaints and low member approval.

The numbers are there to make it easy. Stop being wimps on running a credible site.

As I said, the business decision to run a clean house is to on occasion "fire the bottom 10%". Just do it a few time. Or give the bottom 10 thirty day bans. That's capitalism. It works. Word will get out that if you want to stay here, you gotta compete. You gotta bring something. What a concept !

Stop being wuss Moderators. Stop being PC nit-pickers. Spend a few moments studying how our militias functioned in days of yore. Or the concept of being "ruled by the consent of the governed." It has a track record. And it works.

Bitch slap the trolls. By the numbers !

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:41 PM

And I think it's fair to say that mods want members who don't hold grudges when we enforce the rules, but that's an entirely different issue. And it happens, trust me on that.

But since you're the authority on trolling and freedom - define "trolling". Is it only what you think is trolling and maybe not what others think?

My view is that real trolling is limited to personal attacks (and that doesn't include attacks on one's ideas or arguments, which should be up for grabs).

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:42 PM

Except look at the standards I offered. Off the top of my head, you re at about 7% thanks. And not likely racking up complaints.

Now let's look at my alleged trolls. Joaquin the moron troll. Cigar the mindless troll. J is at like 2%. Cigar at 4%. Many of you members would agree that they bring nothing but BS to the table.

Those of us that do have higher approvals, by the numbers, I suspect fewer complaints. Regardless, the losing combination should be high complaints and low member approval.

The numbers are there to make it easy. Stop being wimps on running a credible site.

As I said, the business decision to run a clean house is to on occasion "fire the bottom 10%". Just do it a few time. Or give the bottom 10 thirty day bans. That's capitalism. It works. Word will get out that if you want to stay here, you gotta compete. You gotta bring something. What a concept !

Stop being wuss Moderators. Stop being PC nit-pickers. Spend a few moments studying how our militias functioned in days of yore. Or the concept of being "ruled by the consent of the governed." It has a track record. And it works.

Bitch slap the trolls. By the numbers !

Now this is an example of trolling. Pure unmitigated personal attacks that border on delusion. Case closed.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 08:43 PM

And I think it's fair to say that mods want members who don't hold grudges when we enforce the rules, but that's an entirely different issue. And it happens, trust me on that.

But since you're the authority on trolling and freedom - define "trolling". Is it only what you think is trolling and maybe not what others think?

i am not an authority on anything.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 08:44 PM

i am not an authority on anything.

qft

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 08:45 PM

I'd call it a joke (apparently an ineffectual one), but to each his own.

J. You are a troll at PF. You are a troll here. Can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. If your game is in the gutter, we want to compel you to play it somewhere else. You are one sorry-ass poster as currently constituted. And it ain't close.

You have been thanked one time in 66 posts. That's under 2%. That's peer review. Maybe Cigar and a couple other chumps will boost you a little now that I have pointed it out. But dude ... so far you are a loser. By the numbers.

"I feel your pain." But I do not care. You need to be booted from here. With gusto.

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:45 PM

Except look at the standards I offered. Off the top of my head, you re at about 7% thanks. And not likely racking up complaints.

Now let's look at my alleged trolls. Joaquin the moron troll. Cigar the mindless troll. J is at like 2%. Cigar at 4%. Many of you members would agree that they bring nothing but BS to the table.

Those of us that do have higher approvals, by the numbers, I suspect fewer complaints. Regardless, the losing combination should be high complaints and low member approval.

The numbers are there to make it easy. Stop being wimps on running a credible site.

As I said, the business decision to run a clean house is to on occasion "fire the bottom 10%". Just do it a few time. Or give the bottom 10 thirty day bans. That's capitalism. It works. Word will get out that if you want to stay here, you gotta compete. You gotta bring something. What a concept !

Stop being wuss Moderators. Stop being PC nit-pickers. Spend a few moments studying how our militias functioned in days of yore. Or the concept of being "ruled by the consent of the governed." It has a track record. And it works.

Bitch slap the trolls. By the numbers !

It's not a matter of being wimps. :laugh: Unpopular opinions have every right to be here as popular ones, or else you get an echo chamber. Aren't you one of the people who was complaining we don't get enough libs? Well, funny thing is that the reasonable ones show up from time to time and get blasted with insults, so they leave. Only the thick skinned ones stay, and they see the insults being handed out so they fire back. It's a cycle and then you see people complaining about it. Treat people respectfully and they will usually give it back.

Now as far as your system goes, I could easily bump C & J up way beyond me in a matter of hours. I've seen other members do it to each other. The karma system is broken IMO and shouldn't be used as a barometer of anything.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 08:46 PM

qft

What ever that means.

URF8

09-25-2012, 08:46 PM

Weirdly, Captain Obvious moved my posts about the teleprompter here (I didn't). So I thought he was dropping me a hint!

Apparently I don't know shit about what's happening here.

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:46 PM

My view is that real trolling is limited to personal attacks (and that doesn't include attacks on one's ideas or arguments, which should be up for grabs).

I would agree that personal attacks are a lot worse than attacking parties or ideologies

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:47 PM

What ever that means.

quoted for truth

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 08:47 PM

Now this is an example of trolling. Pure unmitigated personal attacks that border on delusion. Case closed.

But you miss the point. I am a peer-approved member. I am established as other than a troll. I have earned grace.

You are only a troll.

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:47 PM

Apparently I don't know shit about what's happening here.

I'm a little mystified too, just roll with it.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:47 PM

Apparently I don't know shit about what's happening here.

I don't know either but this is suddenly the most entertaining thread on the whole forum.

Trinnity

09-25-2012, 08:47 PM

[I]f posters want to start threads with issues in them -- even implied issues (and in fact that thread was a back handed insult to Obama using the "Obama is Actually Stupid" talking point), how the heck can they complain if somebody comments on them? Isn't that sort of the point!Public figures are fair game.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:48 PM

But you miss the point. I am a peer-approved member. I am established as other than a troll. I have earned grace.

You are only a troll.

Like I said, trolling with delusions of grandeur, which is a cut above.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 08:48 PM

quoted for truth

That's correct then, because when it comes to this shit, I am not an authority...seems no one else is either.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:49 PM

Public figures are fair game.

Of course. And so is the criticism of them. Which is what I responded to.

roadmaster

09-25-2012, 08:49 PM

Not sure I agree, but ok - so only name calling is "trolling"?

That's what bothered me at the other place. Calling a person a dumb @@@ and worse and had nothing to say or add to the topic. Debate why you think he or she is wrong.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:49 PM

That's correct then, because when it comes to this shit, I am not an authority...seems no one else is either.

Apparently Shoot the Goose is.

roadmaster

09-25-2012, 08:50 PM

Public figures are fair game.

Yes, they are.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 08:50 PM

Apparently Shoot the Goose is.

yes, he is.

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 08:50 PM

It's not a matter of being wimps. :laugh: Unpopular opinions have every right to be here as popular ones, or else you get an echo chamber. Aren't you one of the people who was complaining we don't get enough libs? Well, funny thing is that the reasonable ones show up from time to time and get blasted with insults, so they leave. Only the thick skinned ones stay, and they see the insults being handed out so they fire back. It's a cycle and then you see people complaining about it. Treat people respectfully and they will usually give it back.

Now as far as your system goes, I could easily bump C & J up way beyond me in a matter of hours. I've seen other members do it to each other. The karma system is broken IMO and shouldn't be used as a barometer of anything.

Nope. The reasonable ones are not blasted with insults.

The trolls are. Frankly, many of us are well-experienced forum posters. This ain't our first rodeo.

Try abusing the karma system ! Go ahead and try to inflate a friend for awhile. See how long you have the desire to boost stupidity.

Nothing is perfect. But knowing a troll from a credible poster is not rocket science.

Trinnity

09-25-2012, 08:51 PM

I want unbiased mods who are fair and don't hold grudges against those who disagreed with them...that is what we came from.

And I think it's fair to say that mods want members who don't hold grudges when we enforce the rules, but that's an entirely different issue. And it happens, trust me on that.
None of the mods have a grudge against anyone and we try real hard to be fair to everyone.

Conley

09-25-2012, 08:53 PM

Nope. The reasonable ones are not blasted with insults.

The trolls are. Frankly, many of us are well-experienced forum posters. This ain't our first rodeo.

Try abusing the karma system ! Go ahead and try to inflate a friend for awhile. See how long you have the desire to boost stupidity.

Nothing is perfect. But knowing a troll from a credible poster is not rocket science.

But your definition of reasonable is anyone who agrees with you. Anyone who doesn't -- it's open season. That's fine but if you want us to crack down on the forums it's going to be a crack down on everyone. The "cowardly" (which is pretty silly considering we're talking about a forum here) thing to do would be to only pick on the ones who don't have their e-buddies on here.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:53 PM

Yes, they are.

With 11 rep power he ought to be!

Chris

09-25-2012, 08:55 PM

We all know what trolling is. Let the members handle it.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 08:56 PM

We all know what trolling is. Let the members handle it.

How? Can you elaborate?

I'm interested in your thoughts on this.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 08:59 PM

Nope. The reasonable ones are not blasted with insults.

The trolls are. Frankly, many of us are well-experienced forum posters. This ain't our first rodeo.

Try abusing the karma system ! Go ahead and try to inflate a friend for awhile. See how long you have the desire to boost stupidity.

Nothing is perfect. But knowing a troll from a credible poster is not rocket science.

Goose, look: my rep power is increasing even as we speak. Soon it will exceed yours and then you'll be the troll.

You should never have started this rep war, but dammit I'm going to end it

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:01 PM

Goose, look: my rep power is increasing even as we speak. Soon it will exceed yours and then you'll be the troll.

You should never have started this rep war, but dammit I'm going to end it

OMG...is this what it is to you??? Sad, very sad.

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:01 PM

Goose, look: my rep power is increasing even as we speak. Soon it will exceed yours and then you'll be the troll.

You should never have started this rep war, but dammit I'm going to end it

You must have been part of the government Cash for Karma program...much more successful than the Cash for Clunkers. I'll be expecting that check you offered.

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:01 PM

OMG...is this what it is to you??? Sad, very sad.

Don't be sad Goldie. Let's have fun. :grin:

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:02 PM

OMG...is this what it is to you??? Sad, very sad.

Yes, that's what it's all about: rep. Goose made me see that.

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 09:03 PM

But your definition of reasonable is anyone who agrees with you. Anyone who doesn't -- it's open season. That's fine but if you want us to crack down on the forums it's going to be a crack down on everyone. The "cowardly" (which is pretty silly considering we're talking about a forum here) thing to do would be to only pick on the ones who don't have their e-buddies on here.

That just does not make sense. Several of us gave definitions of trolling earlier. Minority opinion was never mentioned. Reasonable opinion likewise, as we are all more than grown-up enough to know the difference between an opinion we do not agree with, and a post devoid of anyting but sniping.

Let's use Joaguin as an example. Take a look at that one's posts. How many fall outside of the summation of "you suck", or "conservatives suck"? Those are not minority arguments/opinions. That is trolling. The lack of peer approval engraves my take on this in virtual stone.

Like I said. Fire the bottom 10% at the end of every month for three months. Combine it with a peer review looking at reports for trolling. The members will tell you who is doing such. Trust us. We are the militia.

Establish a reputation based on the capitalist competitive model. You will thrive.

What a concept ............

Trinnity

09-25-2012, 09:03 PM

Goose, look: my rep power is increasing even as we speak. Soon it will exceed yours and then you'll be the troll.

You should never have started this rep war, but dammit I'm going to end itWhat happened? Five minutes ago your karma was 39. I repped you a couple of times for a couple of good posts, but .......

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:03 PM

You must have been part of the government Cash for Karma program...much more successful than the Cash for Clunkers. I'll be expecting that check you offered.

I feel like I'm in an episode of Dragonball Z (obscure reference only for those who have children)

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:04 PM

What happened. Five minutes ago your karma was 39. I repped you a couple of times for a couple of good posts, but .......

I don't know. Karma tends to come and go. You did your best.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:06 PM

I feel like I'm in an episode of Dragonball Z (obscure reference only for those who have children)

Wait - is this "personality" I detect?

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 09:06 PM

Goose, look: my rep power is increasing even as we speak. Soon it will exceed yours and then you'll be the troll.

You should never have started this rep war, but dammit I'm going to end it

Hey. Do I look or sound worried ? Do you think any of the quality posters here fear competition ?

You are a douchebag poster. I want to haul you under the bright lights, right next to me, every chance I get until you either uplift your game, or are stomped like a cockroach.

Do I sound worried ? ......................... :)

Praise Jesus and pass the ammunition !

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:06 PM

That just does not make sense. Several of us gave definitions of trolling earlier. Minority opinion was never mentioned. Reasonable opinion likewise, as we are all more than grown-up enough to know the difference between an opinion we do not agree with, and a post devoid of anyting but sniping.

Let's use Joaguin as an example. Take a look at that one's posts. How many fall outside of the summation of "you suck", or "conservatives suck". Those are not minority arguments/opinions. That is trolling. The lack of peer approval engraves my take on this in virtual stone.

Like I said. Fire the bottom 10% at the end of every month for three months. Combine it with a peer review looking at reports for trolling. The members will tell you who is doing such. Trust us. We are the militia.

Establish a reputation based on the capitalist competitive model. You will thrive.

What a concept ............

Well it seems to me that would bring us to a forum with everyone believing the same thing. If people wanted it maybe there would be a way to create a room where only the like-minded folks posted, but I think it would be very quiet.

A capitalist model would only make sense if we needed to cut down expenses (members). We want members...it's like our government. No one gets fired and we just keep growing and growing until everyone works for us. :laugh:

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:07 PM

That just does not make sense. Several of us gave definitions of trolling earlier. Minority opinion was never mentioned. Reasonable opinion likewise, as we are all more than grown-up enough to know the difference between an opinion we do not agree with, and a post devoid of anyting but sniping.

Let's use Joaguin as an example. Take a look at that one's posts. How many fall outside of the summation of "you suck", or "conservatives suck". Those are not minority arguments/opinions. That is trolling. The lack of peer approval engraves my take on this in virtual stone.

Like I said. Fire the bottom 10% at the end of every month for three months. Combine it with a peer review looking at reports for trolling. The members will tell you who is doing such. Trust us. We are the militia.

Establish a reputation based on the capitalist competitive model. You will thrive.

What a concept ............

Ironically I have never posted the word "suck" but you have.

I see a pattern of projection forming.

KC

09-25-2012, 09:07 PM

I feel like I'm in an episode of Dragonball Z (obscure reference only for those who have children)

Is the average age here really that much older than me? Damn.
I had everything that franchise put out and watched the show with religious fervor when I was 9.

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 09:07 PM

Appears some of our mods have a chip on their shoulder about this subject. If you didn't want to hear the answers, shouldn't have asked the question.

I don't see the need to re-invent the wheel. Lots of political forums on the internet and they all have rules about trolls and flaming.

Here's one example:

(06) Flaming and Personal Attacks: Flaming and personal attacks are not allowed. Report arguments and those provoking arguments to the staff so that we can stop it. Flaming creates unnecessary drama that brings down the site's reputation and stresses everyone involved. Likewise, if someone flames you take the high road and report it rather than replying. The excuse that you were just replying to a provocation will not suffice as an excuse. Possible actions will include but will not be limited to a “clean up” (by the moderators where the arguments and all supporting posts will be deleted), warnings, or bans. Due to the nature of a political forum we also advise you to have “thick skin” as not everything can be considered a personal attack. A threat, vulgarity, profanity, racism, and slander would be good examples of a political attack, Sexism, and "You're a liar" will not be tolerated(but are limited examples on a broad spectrum).

(12) Trolling: Trolling is defined as “someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” Trolling is fairly easy to spot and we ask that you report trolls to the staff. Warning and bans will be utilized for such behavior.

Here's another:

Off Topic Posts, Trolling, Metaposts and Thread Disruption: While a certain amount of natural ‘topic drift’, particularly on longer threads, is inevitable the golden rule is IF YOU DON’T WANT TO DISCUSS THE TOPIC, DON’T POST IN THE THREAD! Posts which are ‘Off Topic’ posts, 'Trolling' posts, ‘Metaposts’ (e.g. ‘This thread is rubbish’ or ‘Fail Thread’), or chronically pointless posts (e.g. multiple posts with the same meaning, posts using excessive amounts of blank space, irrelevant or oversized text, etc.) may be deleted without notice. Chronic violations of this rule that in the opinion of the moderators would lead to thread destruction, disruption or derailment of the thread can result in warnings, infractions, thread bans and/or eventual banning.

And another:

. Baiting/Flaming/Trolling - To bait someone in a general sense is to make a comment with a purposeful intent to coerce some form of response from the individual. In some cases this device can be a useful tool of debate, eliciting responses to highlight a point or reveal an underlying truth concerning someone’s argument. However, in other cases the intent of the bait is less focused on debating. “Flamebaiting” is making statements intended to cause an angry or emotional response/flame from the person. Another form of baiting is known as “derailing” or “thread-jacking”. This is deliberate act of making statements with an aim of diverting the topic of a thread significantly from its main focus. These negative forms of baiting constitute a rules violation that can potentially lead to a suspension of posting privileges.

"Originally, flame meant to carry forth in a passionate manner in the spirit of honorable debate. Flames most often involved the use of flowery language and flaming well was an art form. More recently flame has come to refer to "any kind of derogatory comment no matter how witless or crude."[google] In a forum with sensitive topics such as this, derogatory flaming is bound to happen. Common sense will prevail, yet this is not an invitation to flame. e.g. "You stupid *****ing moron," is completely unacceptable and could lead to a suspension of posting privileges.

Trolling is a diversionary tactic of those who “deliberately exploit tendencies of human nature or of an online community to upset people” or those “who post inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages” to disrupt normal on-topic discussions. [Wikipedia]. Ignorance, bias, and genuine dissent are not trolling, though at times they may appear similar due to the disingenuous nature of some trolls. Trolling is not allowed and can potentially lead to the suspension of posting privileges.

IMHO, MEMBER-RUN doesn't mean we make the rules. It means the forum provides us with fair rules and ways to protest if we don't like something. Do your homework and decide what level of 'world-class' this forum wants to be. But Goose is right, you might have to cut loose a little dead weight to achieve that goal. Not every new member is a good thing for the forum community.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:09 PM

Appears some of our mods have a chip on their shoulder about this subject. If you didn't want to hear the answers, shouldn't have asked the question.

I don't see the need to re-invent the wheel. Lots of political forums on the internet and they all have rules about trolls and flaming.

Here's one example:

(06) Flaming and Personal Attacks: Flaming and personal attacks are not allowed. Report arguments and those provoking arguments to the staff so that we can stop it. Flaming creates unnecessary drama that brings down the site's reputation and stresses everyone involved. Likewise, if someone flames you take the high road and report it rather than replying. The excuse that you were just replying to a provocation will not suffice as an excuse. Possible actions will include but will not be limited to a “clean up” (by the moderators where the arguments and all supporting posts will be deleted), warnings, or bans. Due to the nature of a political forum we also advise you to have “thick skin” as not everything can be considered a personal attack. A threat, vulgarity, profanity, racism, and slander would be good examples of a political attack, Sexism, and "You're a liar" will not be tolerated(but are limited examples on a broad spectrum).

(12) Trolling: Trolling is defined as “someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” Trolling is fairly easy to spot and we ask that you report trolls to the staff. Warning and bans will be utilized for such behavior.

Here's another:

Off Topic Posts, Trolling, Metaposts and Thread Disruption: While a certain amount of natural ‘topic drift’, particularly on longer threads, is inevitable the golden rule is IF YOU DON’T WANT TO DISCUSS THE TOPIC, DON’T POST IN THE THREAD! Posts which are ‘Off Topic’ posts, 'Trolling' posts, ‘Metaposts’ (e.g. ‘This thread is rubbish’ or ‘Fail Thread’), or chronically pointless posts (e.g. multiple posts with the same meaning, posts using excessive amounts of blank space, irrelevant or oversized text, etc.) may be deleted without notice. Chronic violations of this rule that in the opinion of the moderators would lead to thread destruction, disruption or derailment of the thread can result in warnings, infractions, thread bans and/or eventual banning.

And another:

. Baiting/Flaming/Trolling - To bait someone in a general sense is to make a comment with a purposeful intent to coerce some form of response from the individual. In some cases this device can be a useful tool of debate, eliciting responses to highlight a point or reveal an underlying truth concerning someone’s argument. However, in other cases the intent of the bait is less focused on debating. “Flamebaiting” is making statements intended to cause an angry or emotional response/flame from the person. Another form of baiting is known as “derailing” or “thread-jacking”. This is deliberate act of making statements with an aim of diverting the topic of a thread significantly from its main focus. These negative forms of baiting constitute a rules violation that can potentially lead to a suspension of posting privileges.

"Originally, flame meant to carry forth in a passionate manner in the spirit of honorable debate. Flames most often involved the use of flowery language and flaming well was an art form. More recently flame has come to refer to "any kind of derogatory comment no matter how witless or crude."[google] In a forum with sensitive topics such as this, derogatory flaming is bound to happen. Common sense will prevail, yet this is not an invitation to flame. e.g. "You stupid *****ing moron," is completely unacceptable and could lead to a suspension of posting privileges.

Trolling is a diversionary tactic of those who “deliberately exploit tendencies of human nature or of an online community to upset people” or those “who post inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages” to disrupt normal on-topic discussions. [Wikipedia]. Ignorance, bias, and genuine dissent are not trolling, though at times they may appear similar due to the disingenuous nature of some trolls. Trolling is not allowed and can potentially lead to the suspension of posting privileges.

IMHO, MEMBER-RUN doesn't mean we make the rules. It means the forum provides us with fair rules and ways to protest if we don't like something. Do your homework and decide what level of 'world-class' this forum wants to be. But Goose is right, you might have to cut loose a little dead weight to achieve that goal. Not every new member is a good thing for the forum community.

Ok - should we implement these rules?

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:09 PM

Hey. Do I look or sound worried ?

Yes in fact you do. You sound scared out of your wits, such as they are.

Do you think any of the quality posters here fear competition ?

But that doesn't include you.

You are a douchebag poster. I want to haul you under the bright lights, right next to me, every chance I get until you either uplift your game, or are stomped like a cockroach.

Yes, let your inner troll out.

Honestly, Goose, it's like taking candy from a baby with posters like you. Projection, you're soaking in it.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:10 PM

Is the average age here really that much older than me? Damn.
I had everything that franchise put out and watched the show with religious fervor when I was 9.

It's still going and still just as incomprehensible. Yet strangely pleasing.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:11 PM

Wish I could rep you more SMW

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:11 PM

Appears some of our mods have a chip on their shoulder about this subject. If you didn't want to hear the answers, shouldn't have asked the question.

Who's got chips? :)

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:11 PM

Wish I could rep you more SMW

You can just go to her other posts :wink:

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 09:12 PM

OMG...is this what it is to you??? Sad, very sad.

If you look up 'troll' in the dictionary, it will have this picture:

http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=373&dateline=1342329660

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:13 PM

Who's got chips? :)

I do for the Rivera...wanna go???

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:13 PM

It's still going and still just as incomprehensible. Yet strangely pleasing.

The initial reaction to a troll is anger, but that just feeds the troll. Over time, they're seen for what they are, made fun of, then paid less and less attention. When they're ignored--not fed, they'll go away. Newbies will fall for it, but catch on.

Mods trying to deal with them just feeds them, too, given attention, they'll troll you all more and more.

It is fun, sometimes, to make one dance, but that too just feeds them.

So do nothing--boycott them, they'll get bored, and go elsewhere.

Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

That's all I've got. Ignore them, fun with them if you're in the mood, but otherwise ignore.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:13 PM

You can just go to her other posts :wink:

Oh shut up

KC

09-25-2012, 09:13 PM

Are you talking about Dragonball or this thread?
Why can't it be both?

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:13 PM

I do for the Rivera...wanna go???

I love the friendly new and improved Goldie. :grin:

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:14 PM

Oh shut up

:rofl: Spoke too soon :cry:

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:14 PM

Why can't it be both?

That's the problem with you kids today...wanting it all. When I was your age!

The initial reaction to a troll is anger, but that just feeds the troll. Over time, they're seen for what they are, made fun of, then paid less and less attention. When they're ignored--not fed, they'll go away. Newbies will fall for it, but catch on.

Mods trying to deal with them just feeds them, too, given attention, they'll troll you all more and more.

It is fun, sometimes, to make one dance, but that too just feeds them.

So do nothing--boycott them, they'll get bored, and go elsewhere.

Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

That's all I've got. Ignore them, fun with them if you're in the mood, but otherwise ignore.

Folks we've got a winner

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:17 PM

Are you talking about Dragonball or this thread?

I'm no longer sure but my power has risen to over 9000 like Vegeta's!

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:17 PM

:rofl: Spoke too soon :cry:

Smooch!!!!!!

KC

09-25-2012, 09:18 PM

I'm no longer sure but my power has risen to over 9000 like Vegeta's!

Swing and a miss.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:18 PM

If you look up 'troll' in the dictionary, it will have this picture:

http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=373&dateline=1342329660

You use a picture dictionary?

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:20 PM

If you look up 'troll' in the dictionary, it will have this picture:

http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=373&dateline=1342329660

SMW - you do realize that this post would have broken one of your recommended rules, no?

Srsly, Capt O, this is a great little forum, but you guys have to decide how you want it to grow. The members can help you grow it by participating, but we can't make the rules for you.

Nobody wants to see heavy-handed modding. But you can't survive on NO modding either. Right now, you nearly have to pull a gun to be warned. The bigger you get, the worse that will be. Keep in mind... part of the crowd you'll attract are folks who've been banned for trolling from other forums. Unless you have rules in place to keep 'em in line here... they'll tear your forum down.

I'm not holding a gudge over the flag thread... but you never apologized nor did ADMIN ever respond to my complaints about your behavior.

I don't get over things by osmosis. If you want communication with the members, it has to work both ways.

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 09:21 PM

SMW - you do realize that this post would have broken one of your recommended rules, no?

The initial reaction to a troll is anger, but that just feeds the troll. Over time, they're seen for what they are, made fun of, then paid less and less attention. When they're ignored--not fed, they'll go away. Newbies will fall for it, but catch on.

Mods trying to deal with them just feeds them, too, given attention, they'll troll you all more and more.

It is fun, sometimes, to make one dance, but that too just feeds them.

So do nothing--boycott them, they'll get bored, and go elsewhere.

Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

That's all I've got. Ignore them, fun with them if you're in the mood, but otherwise ignore.

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/43170.gif

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 09:24 PM

OK, so what've got here is trolling and threadjacking by two mods.

I rest my case.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:24 PM

Yep, sure do. Good example, wasn't it?

Right - and my point is, if we adopted rules like this, many of your posts and posts of many others would be violations and subject to action.

Is that what you and everyone else wants? I'm not sure that's what I want, but it's not up to me.

Chris

09-25-2012, 09:24 PM

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/43170.gif

Did he make it?

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:24 PM

Yeah. I'm nitpicking maybe but it's Goku's power level that Vegeta referred to in that episode.

Well it seems to me that would bring us to a forum with everyone believing the same thing. If people wanted it maybe there would be a way to create a room where only the like-minded folks posted, but I think it would be very quiet.

A capitalist model would only make sense if we needed to cut down expenses (members). We want members...it's like our government. No one gets fired and we just keep growing and growing until everyone works for us. :laugh:

Yup to what I bolded. But what we believe in is informed debate. Where respect, and membership, is given freely initially, but then must maintain a standard. As established by peers.

What are you afraid of ?

What I submit is that what I advocate will enhance the forum, not diminish it. "Members for members sake" is a path to mediocrity. Make this a forum that runs in the pure capitalist model. And it will thrive. Let the reputation of tPF be that if one wants to stay here, there's a quality-control threshold. That the riff-raff are booted.

Trust me. More than anything. And I am not alone. I love good debate. I love opinions that differ from mine. Opinions, pro and con, about the topic is all I ask.

Joaquin is a total douchebag poster. He can moan all he wants, but the track record is there. Many of us know that punk from PF. Send a message, and establish a protocol, that says that we only tolerate the better douchebags.

You will thrive if you do.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:26 PM

OK, so what've got here is trolling and threadjacking by two mods.

I rest my case.

And here's a great example of what I suggested earlier - the term "trolling" will be loosely accused when someone expresses an opinion that differs from others.

It would be a moderating nightmare that could turn this place into a graveyard - but again I ask, is that what we want?

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:26 PM

Right - and my point is, if we adopted rules like this, many of your posts and posts of many others would be violations and subject to action.

Is that what you and everyone else wants? I'm not sure that's what I want, but it's not up to me.

But you warned us? How does that work?

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:27 PM

Did he make it?

I dunno, but that dude standing on the court is staring down the other guys junk like nobodies business.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:27 PM

Captain, you warned us to be civil...but said nothing about the trolling.

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:27 PM

And here's a great example of what I suggested earlier - the term "trolling" will be loosely accused when someone expresses an opinion that differs from others.

It would be a moderating nightmare that could turn this place into a graveyard - but again I ask, is that what we want?

Heck no.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:28 PM

But you warned us? How does that work?

Be specific - give me an example.

KC

09-25-2012, 09:28 PM

And here's a great example of what I suggested earlier - the term "trolling" will be loosely accused when someone expresses an opinion that differs from others.

It would be a moderating nightmare that could turn this place into a graveyard - but again I ask, is that what we want?

I say we follow Chris' wisdom on this one, but if you really want to why not attach a poll to this thread?

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 09:28 PM

Me? and what case?

Sorry... unintentional.

Not looking to fight. Like I said... it's not our forum, it's yours. Tell us how you want it to be and we'll conform.

Wide open is great if you wanna keep it small. World-class is gonna take a little structure.

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 09:29 PM

Right - and my point is, if we adopted rules like this, many of your posts and posts of many others would be violations and subject to action.

Is that what you and everyone else wants? I'm not sure that's what I want, but it's not up to me.

No. There are two thresholds that must be crossed. Reported violations of a trolling nature, and a lack of peer endorsements.

This ain't difficult.

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:29 PM

Yup to what I bolded. But what we believe in is informed debate. Where respect, and membership, is given freely initially, but then must maintain a standard. As established by peers.

What are you afraid of ?

What I submit is that what I advocate will enhance the forum, not diminish it. "Members for members sake" is a path to mediocrity. Make this a forum that runs in the pure capitalist model. And it will thrive. Let the reputation of tPF be that if one wants to stay here, there's a quality-control threshold. That the riff-raff are booted.

Trust me. More than anything. And I am not alone. I love good debate. I love opinions that differ from mine. Opinions, pro and con, about the topic is all I ask.

Joaquin is a total douchebag poster. He can moan all he wants, but the track record is there. Many of us know that punk from PF. Send a message, and establish a protocol, that says that we only tolerate the better douchebags.

You will thrive if you do.

It's not a matter of being afraid.

I'm curious, please tell me who the liberal posters are on this forum who you feel are worth your respect and give good arguments.

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 09:29 PM

And here's a great example of what I suggested earlier - the term "trolling" will be loosely accused when someone expresses an opinion that differs from others.

It would be a moderating nightmare that could turn this place into a graveyard - but again I ask, is that what we want?

Your mind was made up before you started this thread. Why bother asking us?

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:29 PM

I say we follow Chris' wisdom on this one, but if you really want to why not attach a poll to this thread?

I was thinking the same, might just do that.

Trinnity

09-25-2012, 09:29 PM

So do nothing--boycott them, they'll get bored, and go elsewhere.
Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
That's all I've got. Ignore them, fun with them if you're in the mood, but otherwise ignore.Just don't post on troll threads, right? Yep.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:29 PM

Be specific - give me an example.

The thread that started this thread!!!! How soon we forget. You warned us all to be civil but did not differentiate from the poster to the troll.

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 09:30 PM

I say we follow Chris' wisdom on this one, but if you really want to why not attach a poll to this thread?

Learning to 'deal with' trolls isn't the same as debating whether there should be rules against trolling.

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:31 PM

Sorry... unintentional.

Not looking to fight. Like I said... it's not our forum, it's yours. Tell us how you want it to be and we'll conform.

Wide open is great if you wanna keep it small. World-class is gonna take a little structure.

No, I'm honestly curious. I mean I will give you threadjacking :laugh: It's my nature to joke around. I can see how you would say that's unprofessional. This isn't my job though...this is a place for me to have fun, and I try to treat people equally and with respect even if I don't agree with their political positions. I'm here to have fun, if it isn't fun then I wouldn't be here.

But I don't understand why you would think we have chips on our shoulder or whatever? if you feel like explaining cool if not no worries...

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:31 PM

Your mind was made up before you started this thread. Why bother asking us?

Not true. You didn't answer my repeated questions - do you want a restricted forum where many posts including yours would be subject to infraction?

If you don't like the way that question is phrased - that's too bad, but it's true. Many of your posts would violate those rules that you posted.

So again I ask.

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:33 PM

Going back to what Chris posted also...you know the origin of the word trolling? It's fishing...when you respond to a troll, you are the fish and you are biting down on that hook. Now being the smart lil fishies that you are, why would you go and do that? Nothing good comes from biting down on those hooks.

MMC

09-25-2012, 09:33 PM

Cliff Notes?

Yeah I got one.....I notice You Don't ever throw out the First Insult or Diss. Despite being a liberal. :greatjob:

Chris

09-25-2012, 09:34 PM

But what we believe in is informed debate. Where respect, and membership, is given freely initially, but then must maintain a standard. As established by peers.

That was good!

There's an ethics to discussion. It's simple. You post because you have something to say and want to be heard. The way to earn that is to respect others by hearing them out.

As Goldwater said, "To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable."

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:34 PM

The thread that started this thread!!!! How soon we forget. You warned us all to be civil but did not differentiate from the poster to the troll.

A member posted various insults toward another member. You can go back and scroll through it and probably find it for yourself.

The goal here is to not single anyone out if we can. Crowd control thing - get off of the negativity and back into discussion without PMing or issuing infractions. This keeps a somewhat open discussion, lightly moderated and still keeping the peace.

This doesn't mean that every post will be noticed or acted on - that's what the "reported post" feature is for. Use it if you think something is out of bounds.

But still - at the end of the day there will be people who complain for the sake of complaining and we can't make everyone happy. So we stick with the process and hope for the best.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:34 PM

It's not a matter of being afraid.

I'm curious, please tell me who the liberal posters are on this forum who you feel are worth your respect and give good arguments.

This ought to be good.

Meantime, Chris' suggestion seems to be the most prudential. Though the hysteria of some of the other posts are more entertaining.

I would however add that attacks of a personal nature should generally be subject to "be civil" warnings. We can all benefit from being reminded to be civil.

MMC

09-25-2012, 09:36 PM

Some of the folks on here , whether they want to admit it or not, think trolling is posting political opinions that they don't agree with their own. It's a slippery slope to try to enforce these kinds of things. I'd say it's like porn, you know it when you see it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

Indeed my brutha after reading the whole thread. One can see if those from the left post up. Then it is to be considered trolling by those from the right. Threads or posts. Seems it doesnt matter.

Chris

09-25-2012, 09:39 PM

Just don't post on troll threads, right? Yep.

Nobody's perfect. :evil:

Smartmouthwoman

09-25-2012, 09:39 PM

No, I'm honestly curious. I mean I will give you threadjacking :laugh: It's my nature to joke around. I can see how you would say that's unprofessional. This isn't my job though...this is a place for me to have fun, and I try to treat people equally and with respect even if I don't agree with their political positions. I'm here to have fun, if it isn't fun then I wouldn't be here.

But I don't understand why you would think we have chips on our shoulder or whatever? if you feel like explaining cool if not no worries...

It's the difference between 'world-class' and fun & games. Nothing wrong with either one, but you can't be both at the same time.

I think you have chips because every suggestion has been met with "REALLY? YOU WANT THAT?"

Capt O seems to think I'd be unable to live by rules... although I come from a forum with very strict rules and I've managed to post there for the last 3 years while incurring only 6 infractions and no bannings.

Your audience will rise or sink to whatever level you assign. Low expectations will get you low performance.

The initial reaction to a troll is anger, but that just feeds the troll. Over time, they're seen for what they are, made fun of, then paid less and less attention. When they're ignored--not fed, they'll go away. Newbies will fall for it, but catch on.

Mods trying to deal with them just feeds them, too, given attention, they'll troll you all more and more.

It is fun, sometimes, to make one dance, but that too just feeds them.

So do nothing--boycott them, they'll get bored, and go elsewhere.

Never wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

That's all I've got. Ignore them, fun with them if you're in the mood, but otherwise ignore.

Here is what is wrong with your post. It ignores forum dynamics. Its like believing that ignoring a cancer will make it disappear. The forum relies on the quality of collective debate. That is what attracts new members. Donations. Frequency of traffic. Etc.

What you advocate is nothing but an advance form of sticking one's head in the sand. It does not advance the forum. It maintains the dead weight.

Look. The message we advocate is that one must contribute intellect on occasion. The math of it could not be more simple. The model that I and a few others have advocated advances the forum in all ways.

What you have posted is unfortunately just bunch of excuses to stay mediocre. Bogged down. Politically correct.

Trolling and flame-baiting is the Achilles Heel of every spineless forum.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:42 PM

It's the difference between 'world-class' and fun & games. Nothing wrong with either one, but you can't be both at the same time.

I think you have chips because every suggestion has been met with "REALLY? YOU WANT THAT?"

Capt O seems to think I'd be unable to live by rules... although I come from a forum with very strict rules and I've managed to post there for the last 3 years while incurring only 6 infractions and no bannings.

Your audience will rise or sink to whatever level you assign. Low expectations will get you low performance.

Jesus, this sounds like an RNC political ad.

Deadwood

09-25-2012, 09:43 PM

Cliff Notes?

Now that, IMO is trolling.

Yes, we all take shots. But then, most of us have a contribution of some sort, whether I agree with the content or not. I agree with Conley in saying that if there is no other point to the thread or post than to incite, then its trolling.
Now, what I suggest is needed is to define, in loose terms, what is actionable and what, if any action is necessary.
And there, ladies and gentlemen I would like to follow as opposed to lead. Those who have been here longer have a clearer understanding of the undeclared philosophy of the forum.
For the record, I've found that the "ignore" feature can be very useful, and I am pleased to say, frustrates the shit out of the other guy...

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:45 PM

Those who have been here longer have a clearer understanding of the undeclared philosophy of the forum.

Might want to drop that scope site a little.

:afro:

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:46 PM

It's the difference between 'world-class' and fun & games. Nothing wrong with either one, but you can't be both at the same time.

I think you have chips because every suggestion has been met with "REALLY? YOU WANT THAT?"

Capt O seems to think I'd be unable to live by rules... although I come from a forum with very strict rules and I've managed to post there for the last 3 years while incurring only 6 infractions and no bannings.

Your audience will rise or sink to whatever level you assign. Low expectations will get you low performance.

Thanks for explaining. Well I'll tell you right now, not that you didn't already know, but I'm not very good at world class discussion. I do love reading it though and we have some great posters who come up with amazing arguments.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having fun and there are plenty of threads where we do just that. I don't jump into the Hitler Economics thread to post http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigmiaow.pl

And I definitely don't think we reply to all suggestions with what you claim. If we have a different opinion we speak our mind...simple as that

MMC

09-25-2012, 09:46 PM

Actually, posts/threads made for the sole purpose of eliciting rage are called FLAME-BAITING. Another common forum game. A waste of everyone's time because there's nothing to discuss.

IMO, trolling is when someone drops into the middle of a discussion with a comment like "WELL, THIS THREAD SHIT THE BED, DIDN'T IT!"

Once or twice is bad enough, but a pattern is definitely TROLLING.

What and you don't think that the presentation of an OP with the article could be posted to elicit rage? Do you think threads on Obama's Ole lady and what she eats or is wearing, with nothing but posts designed to elicit but negatives responses are considered flame baiting?

Another common forum game is then to turn the thread into something personal about those who have engaged one they percieve as in not liking persoanlly.....or due to their political ideaology.

KC

09-25-2012, 09:47 PM

I don't jump into the Hitler Economics thread to post http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigmiaow.pl

Although I would argue this deserves a thread.

Deadwood

09-25-2012, 09:47 PM

I would be more than happy to post examples of both of you (Goldie and SMW) trolling by your definition, but that would only be inciting a negative response and hence by definition "trolling".

I post one "shit the bed" clip and everyone shits the bed for a month.

:rollseyes:

Oh my captain...!

Stop! The circular argument thing is hurting my head.

Is that trolling?

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:49 PM

Thanks for explaining. Well I'll tell you right now, not that you didn't already know, but I'm not very good at world class discussion. I do love reading it though and we have some great posters who come up with amazing arguments.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having fun and there are plenty of threads where we do just that. I don't jump into the Hitler Economics thread to post http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigmiaow.pl

And I definitely don't think we reply to all suggestions with what you claim. If we have a different opinion we speak our mind...simple as that

I did and I regret it...LOL

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:49 PM

What and you don't think that the presentation of an OP with the article could be posted to elicit rage? Do you think threads on Obama's Ole lady and what she eats or is wearing, with nothing but posts designed to elicit but negatives responses are considered flame baiting?

Another common forum game is then to turn the thread into something personal about those who have engaged one they percieve as in not liking persoanlly.....or due to their political ideaology.

It is somewhat ironic that the conservatives who tend to start meaningless ugly threads (ad infinitum) about the First Lady, often with misogynistic or racist overtones, are often the ones who complain so much about librals.

Maybe ironic isn't the right term.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 09:50 PM

I don't know if this thread is ever going to go anywhere, but it certainly was cathartic.

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:52 PM

Although I would argue this deserves a thread.

Damn straight it does. Along with the number and length of Mrs. Obama's vacations.

MMC

09-25-2012, 09:52 PM

Oh Gawd...heaven forbid!!!!!!!!

Excatly!!!!! :rollseyes:

head of joaquin

09-25-2012, 09:52 PM

I don't know if this thread is ever going to go anywhere, but it certainly was cathartic.

I for one feel almost well disposed toward you, Captain. There are some people here with wit and intelligence (and some totally without), and it was good to hear from them (the former). And so I regret my hasty and hostile interactions with you on the Foxxcon thread.

See I can admit when I do something stupid.

Goldie Locks

09-25-2012, 09:53 PM

I don't know if this thread is ever going to go anywhere, but it certainly was cathartic.

Oh for sure...I feel so cleansed...LMFAO!!!!!!!

roadmaster

09-25-2012, 09:54 PM

I don't know if this thread is ever going to go anywhere, but it certainly was cathartic.

Well it did draw attention. :laugh:

Deadwood

09-25-2012, 09:55 PM

What and you don't think that the presentation of an OP with the article could be posted to elicit rage? Do you think threads on Obama's Ole lady and what she eats or is wearing, with nothing but posts designed to elicit but negatives responses are considered flame baiting?

Another common forum game is then to turn the thread into something personal about those who have engaged one they percieve as in not liking persoanlly.....or due to their political ideaology.

That is true, making it personal is ugly and I think we would all benefit with the concept of attacking the post and on the one who posted it.

But the big problem I see here is that certain individuals too often manage to disrupt the thread by making it about them instead of the topic, even if they are bombarded by negative reaction.

Conley

09-25-2012, 09:56 PM

Yup to what I bolded. But what we believe in is informed debate. Where respect, and membership, is given freely initially, but then must maintain a standard. As established by peers.

What are you afraid of ?

What I submit is that what I advocate will enhance the forum, not diminish it. "Members for members sake" is a path to mediocrity. Make this a forum that runs in the pure capitalist model. And it will thrive. Let the reputation of tPF be that if one wants to stay here, there's a quality-control threshold. That the riff-raff are booted.

Trust me. More than anything. And I am not alone. I love good debate. I love opinions that differ from mine. Opinions, pro and con, about the topic is all I ask.

Joaquin is a total douchebag poster. He can moan all he wants, but the track record is there. Many of us know that punk from PF. Send a message, and establish a protocol, that says that we only tolerate the better douchebags.

You will thrive if you do.

It's not a matter of being afraid.

I'm curious, please tell me who the liberal posters are on this forum who you feel are worth your respect and give good arguments.

Bump -- any one of them worthy of your time?

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 10:02 PM

What and you don't think that the presentation of an OP with the article could be posted to elicit rage? Do you think threads on Obama's Ole lady and what she eats or is wearing, with nothing but posts designed to elicit but negatives responses are considered flame baiting?

Another common forum game is then to turn the thread into something personal about those who have engaged one they percieve as in not liking persoanlly.....or due to their political ideaology.

Hey. She's a public figure. Its not libel to bash her on any position she has taken. Or any such public figure.

What you have alluded to comes under one of two things with trolling such a topic:

1) Meta-posting. Which is to bash the thread, and not the topic; or

2) Insulting the poster.

Both of the above are routinely made verbotten in forums, and for good reason.

Not an excuse for trolling. Again, I submit Cigar and Joaquin as examples. Look at the collective volume of their posts vs. the quality. Use peer ratings. They are not useless. Call a spade a spade. A troll a troll. Kick the assholes out ! If they come back, compel an elevated game if they are to remain !

They troll because they can.

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:02 PM

Now Goldie - this is what I'm suggesting. On one hand we (and I mean all of us) want a minimally restricted forum but on the other hand what do we do when certain members are essentially just trolling? If those rules are defined and created, they extend to everyone basically.

In a perfect world everyone throws a little mud, drops a few F-bombs, trolls a little then lets it go. Unfortunately some can't and wont let it go, so again - do we turn this place into a more restricted forum?

With a Site that is ABOUT minimal moderation. I think a Supervised Basement works. As none of the posts or threads will show on the main Board. it also allows the Mods to kick those two members down into a thread so they do not disrupt the main board.

Also Thread bans work.....IMO. Especially with Trolls. Nothing worse a Troll can't stand.....is not being able to take part of the thread they created.

Still VIPS and Older members should know the Site they are loyal to is like their home. Which means they have a Right to say something. Especially if a mod is not around. Or if left signed in and is not around.

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:07 PM

There is a line between trolling and freedom. I want unbiased mods who are fair and don't hold grudges against those who disagreed with them...that is what we came from.

I would also include Mods that don't take actions just so they can show others they have some control over them. Or just to be taking actions to show they are a Mod!

Shoot the Goose

09-25-2012, 10:08 PM

Bump -- any one of them worthy of your time?

The threshold is not that we accept substandard posting, and membership, because we believe that while the other opinions are all in the gutter, such is all that can be had.

We should not accept trolls because we believe its that or nothing.

If you believe that there are quality liberal arguments to be had, then lobby for them. That is what I am doing.

Trolling is trolling. It is not defined by ideology. I believe that some trolls have a better angel. I am advocating standards that will attract better angels.

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:09 PM

J. You are a troll at PF. You are a troll here. Can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. If your game is in the gutter, we want to compel you to play it somewhere else. You are one sorry-ass poster as currently constituted. And it ain't close.

You have been thanked one time in 66 posts. That's under 2%. That's peer review. Maybe Cigar and a couple other chumps will boost you a little now that I have pointed it out. But dude ... so far you are a loser. By the numbers.

"I feel your pain." But I do not care. You need to be booted from here. With gusto.

That would be another thing to watch out for. Members from other sites bringing their BS here.

Cigar

09-25-2012, 10:10 PM

Let just get a padded room and go at it! :)

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:11 PM

Public figures are fair game.

So are Moderators.....that means you!

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:14 PM

That's what bothered me at the other place. Calling a person a dumb @@@ and worse and had nothing to say or add to the topic. Debate why you think he or she is wrong.

Well you pretty much know how the conversation is going to turn out once you see it start with name-calling and then immediately goes into some personal shit about the posters. Just Sayin.

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:15 PM

We all know what trolling is. Let the members handle it.

I would agree with you Chris.....unless the member is not experienced or is new to chat boards.

Cigar

09-25-2012, 10:17 PM

Many go in; One comes out :)

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 10:19 PM

Let just get a padded room and go at it! :)

Can we borrow yours?

Conley

09-25-2012, 10:21 PM

The threshold is not that we accept substandard posting, and membership, because we believe that while the other opinions are all in the gutter, such is all that can be had.

We should not accept trolls because we believe its that or nothing.

If you believe that there are quality liberal arguments to be had, then lobby for them. That is what I am doing.

Trolling is trolling. It is not defined by ideology. I believe that some trolls have a better angel. I am advocating standards that will attract better angels.

So you can't name a single lib on here that in your opinion isn't a troll?

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:22 PM

Appears some of our mods have a chip on their shoulder about this subject. If you didn't want to hear the answers, shouldn't have asked the question.

I don't see the need to re-invent the wheel. Lots of political forums on the internet and they all have rules about trolls and flaming.

Here's one example:

(06) Flaming and Personal Attacks: Flaming and personal attacks are not allowed. Report arguments and those provoking arguments to the staff so that we can stop it. Flaming creates unnecessary drama that brings down the site's reputation and stresses everyone involved. Likewise, if someone flames you take the high road and report it rather than replying. The excuse that you were just replying to a provocation will not suffice as an excuse. Possible actions will include but will not be limited to a “clean up” (by the moderators where the arguments and all supporting posts will be deleted), warnings, or bans. Due to the nature of a political forum we also advise you to have “thick skin” as not everything can be considered a personal attack. A threat, vulgarity, profanity, racism, and slander would be good examples of a political attack, Sexism, and "You're a liar" will not be tolerated(but are limited examples on a broad spectrum).

(12) Trolling: Trolling is defined as “someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” Trolling is fairly easy to spot and we ask that you report trolls to the staff. Warning and bans will be utilized for such behavior.

Here's another:

Off Topic Posts, Trolling, Metaposts and Thread Disruption: While a certain amount of natural ‘topic drift’, particularly on longer threads, is inevitable the golden rule is IF YOU DON’T WANT TO DISCUSS THE TOPIC, DON’T POST IN THE THREAD! Posts which are ‘Off Topic’ posts, 'Trolling' posts, ‘Metaposts’ (e.g. ‘This thread is rubbish’ or ‘Fail Thread’), or chronically pointless posts (e.g. multiple posts with the same meaning, posts using excessive amounts of blank space, irrelevant or oversized text, etc.) may be deleted without notice. Chronic violations of this rule that in the opinion of the moderators would lead to thread destruction, disruption or derailment of the thread can result in warnings, infractions, thread bans and/or eventual banning.

And another:

. Baiting/Flaming/Trolling - To bait someone in a general sense is to make a comment with a purposeful intent to coerce some form of response from the individual. In some cases this device can be a useful tool of debate, eliciting responses to highlight a point or reveal an underlying truth concerning someone’s argument. However, in other cases the intent of the bait is less focused on debating. “Flamebaiting” is making statements intended to cause an angry or emotional response/flame from the person. Another form of baiting is known as “derailing” or “thread-jacking”. This is deliberate act of making statements with an aim of diverting the topic of a thread significantly from its main focus. These negative forms of baiting constitute a rules violation that can potentially lead to a suspension of posting privileges.

"Originally, flame meant to carry forth in a passionate manner in the spirit of honorable debate. Flames most often involved the use of flowery language and flaming well was an art form. More recently flame has come to refer to "any kind of derogatory comment no matter how witless or crude."[google] In a forum with sensitive topics such as this, derogatory flaming is bound to happen. Common sense will prevail, yet this is not an invitation to flame. e.g. "You stupid *****ing moron," is completely unacceptable and could lead to a suspension of posting privileges.

Trolling is a diversionary tactic of those who “deliberately exploit tendencies of human nature or of an online community to upset people” or those “who post inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages” to disrupt normal on-topic discussions. [Wikipedia]. Ignorance, bias, and genuine dissent are not trolling, though at times they may appear similar due to the disingenuous nature of some trolls. Trolling is not allowed and can potentially lead to the suspension of posting privileges.

IMHO, MEMBER-RUN doesn't mean we make the rules. It means the forum provides us with fair rules and ways to protest if we don't like something. Do your homework and decide what level of 'world-class' this forum wants to be. But Goose is right, you might have to cut loose a little dead weight to achieve that goal. Not every new member is a good thing for the forum community.

Would this include all those that come from the Right or lean to the right as well? Since there are several Trolls existing in their ranks as well.

Yeah we know other Sites have rules and definitions. All of us that set this place came from other Sites. We set it up the same way here. But like I was saying before. We are not like those other sites.

When you did your homework.....did you come up with a Definition of a World Class Forum?

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 10:24 PM

So you can't name a single lib on here that in your opinion isn't a troll?

Including me?

Hey - I'm a lib too.

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:24 PM

Ok - should we implement these rules?

No I think we should go by what Rules we have implemented. Tweak what we have and try to better it. This does not mean that there may be more to add to any particular rule and definition. Which means we may have to come up with another answer. or look to another area.

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:27 PM

You can just go to her other posts :wink:

Dont be giving up our secrets lil brutha! :slap: :evil:

Conley

09-25-2012, 10:27 PM

Including me?

Hey - I'm a lib too.

I think there are a bunch of awesome libs on here. You're not one of them though :laugh:

I just find it weird that a conservative who wants both sides of a debate can't name a single liberal he'll engage in a good discussion with.

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:33 PM

I love the friendly new and improved Goldie. :grin:

Aaaaah.....I always thought she was uhm, erm, GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAT! A lil bit ole fashioned.....but we can still get her to jump thru some hoops. :wink: http://www.debatepolitics.com/images/smilies/pimpdaddy.gif

roadmaster

09-25-2012, 10:36 PM

Including me?

Hey - I'm a lib too.

Who would have known?:rollseyes: So this thread was all about you? People report you?:laugh:

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:37 PM

Smooch!!!!!!

Let me know when it is my turn.....plus remembers. I'm more into tongue-tieing rather than lip-lockin! :grin:

Conley

09-25-2012, 10:38 PM

Who would have known?:rollseyes: So this thread was all about you? People report you?:laugh:

Only when he messes the bed.

:cya20:

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:45 PM

LOL, did I not just say that's not our job????

Srsly, Capt O, this is a great little forum, but you guys have to decide how you want it to grow. The members can help you grow it by participating, but we can't make the rules for you.

Nobody wants to see heavy-handed modding. But you can't survive on NO modding either. Right now, you nearly have to pull a gun to be warned. The bigger you get, the worse that will be. Keep in mind... part of the crowd you'll attract are folks who've been banned for trolling from other forums. Unless you have rules in place to keep 'em in line here... they'll tear your forum down.

I'm not holding a gudge over the flag thread... but you never apologized nor did ADMIN ever respond to my complaints about your behavior.

I don't get over things by osmosis. If you want communication with the members, it has to work both ways.

Myself I have noticed this. Do you think members who are friends with others. Can also drop them a line about when they are getting outta pocket with someone?

I agree that the Admin should have to respond back to anything you take to him. Course if there is trouble on the site. The Admin would look to that first. Which might not mean that he gets to someone that day or even right away. But there should at least be some sort of acknowledgement.

Captain Obvious

09-25-2012, 10:46 PM

Let me know when it is my turn.....plus remembers. I'm more into tongue-tieing rather than lip-lockin! :grin:

http://eater.com/uploads/dayum.jpg

MMC

09-25-2012, 10:51 PM

Yup to what I bolded. But what we believe in is informed debate. Where respect, and membership, is given freely initially, but then must maintain a standard. As established by peers.

What are you afraid of ?

What I submit is that what I advocate will enhance the forum, not diminish it. "Members for members sake" is a path to mediocrity. Make this a forum that runs in the pure capitalist model. And it will thrive. Let the reputation of tPF be that if one wants to stay here, there's a quality-control threshold. That the riff-raff are booted.

Trust me. More than anything. And I am not alone. I love good debate. I love opinions that differ from mine. Opinions, pro and con, about the topic is all I ask.

Joaquin is a total douchebag poster. He can moan all he wants, but the track record is there. Many of us know that punk from PF. Send a message, and establish a protocol, that says that we only tolerate the better douchebags.

You will thrive if you do.

Which Peers would that be? Those that come from someplace else and are the new Kids on the Block or those that have been around sometime?

MMC

09-25-2012, 11:01 PM

It's the difference between 'world-class' and fun & games. Nothing wrong with either one, but you can't be both at the same time.

I think you have chips because every suggestion has been met with "REALLY? YOU WANT THAT?"

Capt O seems to think I'd be unable to live by rules... although I come from a forum with very strict rules and I've managed to post there for the last 3 years while incurring only 6 infractions and no bannings.

Your audience will rise or sink to whatever level you assign. Low expectations will get you low performance.

Do you think Content plays a part in being A Forum with World Class Discussion? Wouldn't this include the Topics that people post up?

Now have you ever been a part of Forum that has World Class Discussion? World Class Debate and please Don't even Say PF!!!!!

GrumpyDog

09-25-2012, 11:03 PM

I cannot think of any meaningful words to contribute to this thread. So I will refrain from posting anything here, just in case it might be misconstrued as trolling.

KC

09-25-2012, 11:03 PM

I cannot think of any meaningful words to contribute to this thread. So I will refrain from posting anything here, just in case it might be misconstrued as trolling.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Thanks for not posting.

MMC

09-25-2012, 11:05 PM

Might want to drop that scope site a little.

:afro:

Would the Word "Better".....be more helpful to the understanding? One thing is for certain they would have a clearer understanding than Any who came recently. Including any that pushed themselves up into the mix.

MMC

09-25-2012, 11:09 PM

It is somewhat ironic that the conservatives who tend to start meaningless ugly threads (ad infinitum) about the First Lady, often with misogynistic or racist overtones, are often the ones who complain so much about librals.

Maybe ironic isn't the right term.

Yeah Right and the left doesnt do the same. :rollseyes: Now what do you say when they come back and you discover not all our conservatives. Do you think those that are not are going to allow one to paint them as that they are? :shocked:

MMC

09-25-2012, 11:19 PM

Hey. She's a public figure. Its not libel to bash her on any position she has taken. Or any such public figure.

What you have alluded to comes under one of two things with trolling such a topic:

1) Meta-posting. Which is to bash the thread, and not the topic; or

2) Insulting the poster.

Both of the above are routinely made verbotten in forums, and for good reason.

Not an excuse for trolling. Again, I submit Cigar and Joaquin as examples. Look at the collective volume of their posts vs. the quality. Use peer ratings. They are not useless. Call a spade a spade. A troll a troll. Kick the assholes out ! If they come back, compel an elevated game if they are to remain !

They troll because they can.

I can name several Righties that came here that are doing the same.....including one who is a Mod. Shall we kick them out too?

Is it libel to bash The FL because of the way she looks or about how she dresses her kids? But you know what I mean. Just bascially a dumbazz thread to shake the libs up. But then somehow always manages to get thrown onto a poster and going personal with them.

GrumpyDog

09-25-2012, 11:37 PM

Just for the record, everyone on this forum is pretty cool. Just like having some fun with you guys, especially that cranky dillusional :blahblah::frustrated:conservative always hanging around at the pub.:boozing:

MMC

09-25-2012, 11:54 PM

Lately I have noticed all the name calling and insults. Which IMO is just a way to bully others. What ticks me off is seeing 5 out of the 8 New Threads that are up on the board Showing as an Internet Site starting off with nothing but some arguing, name calling and talking about anothers people or Race. Don't know why all this Racial Shiznit is being thrown around.

So that all those Visitors that are stopping to check things out sees.....is this Sites Topics all beginning the same Way. Some name calling, and then going personal. Some Racial Bullshit. Then more Arguing.

Half the time people aren't even getting up any breaking news. Which I am sure would attract more attention to the site. Rather than some people arguing. If two people want to argue then take it to your PM's if there is no other place to take it.

Like Chris mentioned.....myself I don't mind taking on the Internet Bullies that don't like to stop. Or getting down in the mud with those that dont care about anything but themselves.

I just hope Admin and these Mods will get a troll Room set up or a Basement with a Dungeon Master. This way none of their garbage will have to continue on the Main Board.

One thing is for sure....then people might actually think about a Site With World Class Discussion when they are Throwing up those Topics.

IGetItAlready

09-26-2012, 12:10 AM

A lot of good back and forth in this thread...something that will surly suffer under any attempt to regulate what some may consider "trolling".
The way I see it it's a necessary evil if you're truly dedicated to free speech.
I think Goose had it right when he said the community should be responsible for dealing with trolls.
We all have the option of either responding or ignoring idiocy. At some point, if a troll wants to take part in the conversation they'll say something pertinent to the conversation. Otherwise they'll tire of threads developing with no responses to their dumb ass comments and they'll leave.
No threads dedicated to shit slamming other members, no verbal attacks against members' family members, no threats of violence and otherwise let the people speak. The rest will work itself out imho.

Carygrant

09-26-2012, 02:07 AM

Man, that was slick. Couldn't edit my post in the other thread, but came here, and voila !

What is trolling ? Its sniping, with no contribution to the thread. Occasional sniping by established members is no big deal. But when such as Joaguin, or Cigar, establish patterns of only sniping, aka "trolling", a couple Mods ought to be able to look at it and issue a stern warning, along the lines of "contibute some informed opinions, or you are outta here". You can be subjective. Its not a court of law. Just do it with the obvious trolls. Who cares if they whine ? If they argue, then ban them.
Another way to look at is would be reps and thanks. In business, it is known as "always being able to fire the bottom 10%". Lop off the bottom 10% on occasion, in terms of minimal performance with appreciation by other members. Its like flushing the toilet !

Why can't you include me as a Troll ? I am royally pissed !
It is the highest possible accolade ,imho , and my dream is to achieve it on a world wide basis .
Troll Governor . Fulfilment .

sparty

09-26-2012, 06:50 AM

Why can't you include me as a Troll ? I am royally pissed !
It is the highest possible accolade ,imho , and my dream is to achieve it on a world wide basis .
Troll Governor . Fulfilment .

You are the Master Troll, hon.

Smartmouthwoman

09-26-2012, 08:04 AM

Excellent example of trolling by a MOD. This from the thread KIDS TO MICHELLE OBAMA: WE'RE HUNGRY!

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by patrickt http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=140209#post140209)
I think the kids are learning a very valuable lesson. What they want doesn't matter to liberals. Liberals will decide what you'll have and you damn well better like it.

You'd better say what you want while you can. The Liberals are coming to take away your words.

Why is it the MODS on this forum are the ones having the most trouble understanding the meaning of the word 'TROLL?' Seems pretty obvious to most of us.

MMC

09-26-2012, 08:09 AM

I don't think you want me Showing those from the Right and when they troll. Otherwise half of your buddies would be shown as such too. Just Sayin!

Mister D

09-26-2012, 08:10 AM

Why can't you include me as a Troll ? I am royally pissed !
It is the highest possible accolade ,imho , and my dream is to achieve it on a world wide basis .
Troll Governor . Fulfilment .

Probably because you are so bad at it.

Smartmouthwoman

09-26-2012, 08:21 AM

I don't think you want me Showing those from the Right and when they troll. Otherwise half of your buddies would be shown as such too. Just Sayin!

Please do give some examples. Especially of taking threads off-topic like Bladz just tried to do with that Bush bashing pic.

I'd love to see what you call trolling.

Chris

09-26-2012, 08:42 AM

Here is what is wrong with your post. It ignores forum dynamics. Its like believing that ignoring a cancer will make it disappear. The forum relies on the quality of collective debate. That is what attracts new members. Donations. Frequency of traffic. Etc.

What you advocate is nothing but an advance form of sticking one's head in the sand. It does not advance the forum. It maintains the dead weight.

Look. The message we advocate is that one must contribute intellect on occasion. The math of it could not be more simple. The model that I and a few others have advocated advances the forum in all ways.

What you have posted is unfortunately just bunch of excuses to stay mediocre. Bogged down. Politically correct.

Trolling and flame-baiting is the Achilles Heel of every spineless forum.

What I was advocating was the group--group dynamics--ostracize trolls. How the group does that is difficult since any action taken toward trolls only gives them what they want. Try to engage them in discussion, they'll troll back, attack them, they'll troll back, moderate them, they'll troll back. Ignore them they'll go away.

Chris

09-26-2012, 08:43 AM

Why can't you include me as a Troll ? I am royally pissed !
It is the highest possible accolade ,imho , and my dream is to achieve it on a world wide basis .
Troll Governor . Fulfilment .

See.

Carygrant

09-26-2012, 08:45 AM

Probably because you are so bad at it.

My Troll Master told me that Trolls must always be very bad .

I gather some risque Gays work to the same maxim .

MMC

09-26-2012, 08:46 AM

All you need do.....is look at those who I have jumped into their shiznit over such. Evidently it would be at least 3 or 4 threads Right off the Top. Which really all you need to is look back at any of your Buddies from PF and the Threads they have thrown up. Or at least thats where they say they are from. I wouldnt know per say as I don't hang out there.

Carygrant

09-26-2012, 08:48 AM

See.
When you were little , did people leave you alone because they thought you were so serious that the sun aint gone shine any more ( Scott Walker) ? Would you make smiling a sin ?

Chris

09-26-2012, 08:56 AM

When you were little , did people leave you alone because they thought you were so serious that the sun aint gone shine any more ( Scott Walker) ? Would you make smiling a sin ?

No, cary. But where'd you get the idea you're any fun?

Shoot the Goose

09-26-2012, 08:57 AM

I can name several Righties that came here that are doing the same.....including one who is a Mod. Shall we kick them out too?

Is it libel to bash The FL because of the way she looks or about how she dresses her kids? But you know what I mean. Just bascially a dumbazz thread to shake the libs up. But then somehow always manages to get thrown onto a poster and going personal with them.

Look, I have been pretty clear with the parameters. The Forum can decide what the basis is for legitimate threads, if they care to.

I am talking about in-thread trolling. We see the same trolls in threads that are viable. Its the bottom 10% of rated posters here as well. Folks who typically of a ration of "thanks received":" posts made" of 25:1 or worse. Some over 50:1. That's making 25-50 posts before someone decides one was good enough to "thank".

It is not that we all make some ignorant posts. That is a red herring. It is that some make almost exclusively ignorant sniping posts.

I would submit too, that if the thread title were "FLOTUS has one wide ass!", then moderation would have a lowered expectation for serious discussion in that thread, and let it wallow accordingly.

We are capable of knowing the difference, are we not ? We know who the trolls are. This ain't rocket science.

MMC

09-26-2012, 09:02 AM

Look, I have been pretty clear with the parameters. The Forum can decide what the basis is for legitimate threads, if they care to.

I am talking about in-thread trolling. We see the same trolls in threads that are viable. Its the bottom 10% of rated posters here as well. Folks who typically of a ration of "thanks received":" posts made" of 25:1 or worse. Some over 50:1. That's making 25-50 posts before someone decides one was good enough to "thank".

It is not that we all make some ignorant posts. That is a red herring. It is that some make almost exclusively ignorant sniping posts.

I would submit too, that if the thread title were "FLOTUS has one wide ass!", then moderation would have a lowered expectation for serious discussion in that thread, and let it wallow accordingly.

We are capable of knowing the difference, are we not ? We know who the trolls are. This ain't rocket science.

I understand what you are saying.....Which again such would lead to those that are from the Right. Which is regardless of those whether they acknowlege them or not. It would be the same Way you describe but then used in defining the Trolls of the Right.

Also you would have to consider who are friends. As they may be just joking round trying to get some laughs. Whereas others might not see it that way. Which would be as you describe with just dropping in with a post here and there.

Note: I would go by what CL said with the karma and rep. As such is not a good gage to use for perspective.

Smartmouthwoman

09-26-2012, 09:03 AM

I don't think you want me Showing those from the Right and when they troll. Otherwise half of your buddies would be shown as such too. Just Sayin!

Still waiting for some examples.

Shoot the Goose

09-26-2012, 09:07 AM

What I was advocating was the group--group dynamics--ostracize trolls. How the group does that is difficult since any action taken toward trolls only gives them what they want. Try to engage them in discussion, they'll troll back, attack them, they'll troll back, moderate them, they'll troll back. Ignore them they'll go away.

It does not work. They do not leave, as if nothing else, they circle-jerk each other. What you end up with is a Forum where, when possible new members are giving it a look, they see intermiitent serious discussion, seperated by swaths of idiot juvenile kiddie-pool posts and threads.

Many of us know this from years of Forum postings.

The concept of "standards" is what we are talking about. As you post over the next few days, hazard some quick math to see where folks are at a "thanks" earned rate of about 3% or less. There's the report card. The peer evaluation.

Smartmouthwoman

09-26-2012, 09:08 AM

I would be more than happy to post examples of both of you (Goldie and SMW) trolling by your definition, but that would only be inciting a negative response and hence by definition "trolling".

I post one "shit the bed" clip and everyone shits the bed for a month.

:rollseyes:

Examples would be good.

MMC

09-26-2012, 09:10 AM

Still waiting for some examples.

Oh okay since you want to have them show for who they are and have them set out. I will just give you the Names.

PatrickT, URF8, Texmaster, Trinnity, just to name a few and Take a look at the authors of the racist threads or any of them always turn the thread back on a lefty and go personal. Not to mention.....how many times have you done. Just That!

WTF or are you that Fricken Partisan!

MMC

09-26-2012, 09:12 AM

Did you still want jump SMW?

Shoot the Goose

09-26-2012, 09:14 AM

..................... Note: I would go by what CL said with the karma and rep. As such is not a good gage to use for perspective.

Except I said there were two thresholds to evaluate. That was the second to consider. The first would be that a member is reported consistently for flaming/trolling. It is only then that one could look to reps etc. and draw a conclusion that such entity appears to be a chronic troll. Then you put them on probation. Then you ban them if they do not elevate their game.

This is not about dinging every troll post. Not at all. This is about kicking the bottom few troll scumbags out.

MMC

09-26-2012, 09:15 AM

Except I said there were two thresholds to evaluate. That was the second to consider. The first would be that a member is reported consistently for flaming/trolling. It is only then that one could look to reps etc. and draw a conclusion that such entity appears to be a chronic troll. Then you put them on probation. Then you ban them if they do not elevate their game.

This is not about dinging every troll post. Not at all. This is about kicking the bottom few troll scumbags out.

So then what do you do when ones buddies all report the same individual? All due to the fact they don't like that individual?

Smartmouthwoman

09-26-2012, 09:17 AM

Oh okay since you want to have them show for who they are and have them set out. I will just give you the Names.

PatrickT, URF8, Texmaster, Trinnity, just to name a few and Take a look at the authors of the racist threads or any of them always turn the thread back on a lefty and go personal. Not to mention.....how many times have you done. Just That!

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Jack Fate http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=137186#post137186)
Romney altered the American flag? Show me.

It's been posted on this thread a couple times, idiot.

If you weren't such a fucking obnoxious jackass, you would go back and find it for yourself.

But instead of discussing the issue, why don't you just throw out some more mindless insults and vulgarity? It's pretty much your intellectual capacity - other than posting bucket carrying hack threads.

Yeah, just stick with the insults. You're not capable of addressing the issue.

roadmaster

09-26-2012, 09:18 AM

Please do give some examples. Especially of taking threads off-topic like Bladz just tried to do with that Bush bashing pic.

I'd love to see what you call trolling.

I think every members opinion is important. If you think he came only to derail the thread and not discus the topic then it could be a sign of trolling without name calling.

Not going to pick on anyone, but I may have been guilty also but I do try to stay on topic.

Chris

09-26-2012, 09:21 AM

It does not work. They do not leave, as if nothing else, they circle-jerk each other. What you end up with is a Forum where, when possible new members are giving it a look, they see intermiitent serious discussion, seperated by swaths of idiot juvenile kiddie-pool posts and threads.

Many of us know this from years of Forum postings.

The concept of "standards" is what we are talking about. As you post over the next few days, hazard some quick math to see where folks are at a "thanks" earned rate of about 3% or less. There's the report card. The peer evaluation.

Speaking here from years of experience as member and admin. My way takes time, your way is interesting and would be faster but formulaic as it is would, I'm afraid, overshoot. Not sure I trust all the social stuff of reputations and thanks as that too can be played by trolls.

Anyway, just wanted to say I'm not suggesting doing nothing, ignoring is sometimes the hardest thing to do.

IGetItAlready

09-26-2012, 09:21 AM

I think every members opinion is important. If you think he came only to derail the thread and not discus the topic then it could be a sign of trolling without name calling.

Not going to pick on anyone, but I may have been guilty also but I do try to stay on topic.

IMO, that's the key RM. You can be as filthy and insulting as you like but if you're making point relevant to the topic at hand IT'S NOT TROLLING.

If you weren't such a fucking obnoxious jackass, you would go back and find it for yourself.

But instead of discussing the issue, why don't you just throw out some more mindless insults and vulgarity? It's pretty much your intellectual capacity - other than posting bucket carrying hack threads.

Yeah, just stick with the insults. You're not capable of addressing the issue.

Why waste time.....you already know Trinnity does it with Cigar. Why waste time looking for the threads SMW. No need to play games. Trolls are trolls. But then you have gone personal just as well. Do you think when people go personal it derails the thread? Isn't trolling to start talking about anothers wife or Ole lady? What about made up personal shit just to elecit that response about more personal shit. Is that trolling.

MMC

09-26-2012, 09:23 AM

I think every members opinion is important. If you think he came only to derail the thread and not discus the topic then it could be a sign of trolling without name calling.

Not going to pick on anyone, but I may have been guilty also but I do try to stay on topic.

Exactly RM I think we all have done it. Most bring the topic back round if they are not trolling.

People simply can't agree on the meaning of these terms. I think you have to look at the motive of the alleged troll. But that in itself is also difficult.

One also has to look at the external context of the alleged trolling. This is election season after all. That means emotions are running high.

Some alleged trolls are filled with emotions which are difficult to explain. Here's what one alleged troll once wrote on another forum:
I've spent the last half hour typing a response to your question only to repeatedly
delete what I've written while I gather my thoughts. I am pseudo-historian
compared to the men and women against which I measure myself.

I grew up and became a man in an era of American history much like Rome during the reigns of the Five Good Emperors who governed the Empire consecutively for a period of
about 90 years in the first and second centuries of the Common Era. This was the
heighth of Empire. It was quite literally the best of times for a the first
iteration of Western Civilization. For some it was a Golden Age. Imo that span
of time was like the American Era of world history from 1941 to 2001. Others
would say the era lasted from 1945 to 1973.

I was an American patriot who loved a land so dearly that my feelings crossed into nationalism and even chauvinism. I say this to give you perspective on the transformation of my world view.

In 2004 I began to understand that I had been willfully blind in
many ways for almost twenty years. But then, I was in good company.

I knew denial and anger and the other stages of grief for a beloved land. Then for
my own well being I began to detach myself emotionally from the fate of that
land. Rome devolved, split up, and became something else while still calling
itself Roman.

America was a polity the creation of which was based on an
idea. What becomes of that polity when the idea dies?

I think I now understand how the Russian nobility must have felt around the time of the
Russo-Japanese War when the Russian defeat revealed a hollow empire. Similarly,
I think I know how some members of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union must
have felt in the mid-1980s when they realized that they had spent seventy years
on the road to no where. Neither the Russian nobility nor the Soviet
intelligentsia could save what they loved.

The land that I loved is gone. And I am aware that the past can never truly be restored.

I am still in love, but now I am in love with the idea on which the polity was originally
based. Individual liberty. This idea was born in Classical Greece, survived for
almost 450 years in the form of the Roman Republic, and appeared again in the
Venetian Republic of the Renaissance.

That idea was refined and distilled during the European Enlightenment by men like Locke, Montesquieu, and Rosseau. The idea became incarnate again with the birth of America and its
Constitution. It spread across a continent, expanded to other races and women,
and spread through the world.

The idea is now being rolled back slowly
with the end of the American Era of the Western Epoch of history. But the idea
won't ever die. It will appear again in some unknown polity among an unknown
people.

Am I too pessimistic? Perhaps, but detachment breeds objectivity.
Some will say that nothing remains the same. This is true. There is a tide in
the affairs of men and women to paraphrase the Bard. And I have seen this all
before in a book by Edward Gibbon.

Good grief..........:yap:

Shoot the Goose

09-26-2012, 09:29 AM

IMO, that's the key RM. You can be as filthy and insulting as you like but if you're making point relevant to the topic at hand IT'S NOT TROLLING.

I pretty much agree, and I think members worth their salt know a trolling post from one that is otherwise gruff.

If you haven't looked at the prize ADMIN has out now, give it a look. It seems to be a reward for those who demonstrate the opposite of trolling. It makes sense. Those attributes that it seeks to reward are what make a forum better.

Kicking a couple of the bums out on occasion reinforces the exact same things .............. :)

No gift-card needed either ....... :)

shaarona

09-26-2012, 09:30 AM

The troll is full of hate and venom. He spreads canards with gusto. He lurks in the dark corners of cyberspace, emerging briefly to shoot at unsuspecting passersby, then quickly melts back into the shadows.

To sample troll negativity, all you have to do is to scroll down to the bottom of a magazine article. You'll invariably find a sheaf of disparaging and vicious comments.
It seems that the intelligent reader comments rarely. She reads the piece, agrees with some points, disagrees with some others, and moves on. She simply doesn't have the time to waste.

You don't like something, you find something else that articulates your worldview better.

The troll is different. He too has a worldview- often a half-baked one. In an earlier time, he might have written a letter to the editor, which would probably have never seen the light of day.

Why waste time.....you already know Trinnity does it with Cigar. Why waste time looking for the threads SMW. No need to play games. Trolls are trolls. But then you have gone personal just as well. Do you think when people go personal it derails the thread? Isn't trolling to start talking about anothers wife or Ole lady? What about made up personal shit just to elecit that response about more personal shit. Is that trolling.

What you don't seem to comprehend here is THERE ARE NO RULES AGAINST TROLLING ON THIS FORUM.

That's the purpose of this thread, right? To define what trolling is and ask whether there should be rules?

I agree about the personal insults. And agree that I'm guilty of doing the same thing. But again... why should I 'clean up my act' when the mods here are worse than any of the members?

Is it worse when a mod insults a member than when a member insults another member?

I'd say it is.

Unless, of course, y'all would like to run off all the 'newbies' and get back to the safe little circle you had before we found this place. That's the distinct impression I get... we're not very welcome here anymore.

MMC

09-26-2012, 09:32 AM

IMO, that's the key RM. You can be as filthy and insulting as you like but if you're making point relevant to the topic at hand IT'S NOT TROLLING.

What about when they start talking about your relatives or about where you work etc etc. Derailing the topic and making no point to the thread other than to insult the one they dont like! Is that trolling as well as looking to shut down the Topic?

Carygrant

09-26-2012, 09:36 AM

The irony , Margot , is that the Daily Mail is itself the one obvious News Paper troll in the UK . It's a ghastly little rag and used continually by the Extremists -- it is more right than Stalin and that is saying something .
The Reps here are probably some of its last readers .

IGetItAlready

09-26-2012, 09:36 AM

What about when they start talking about your relatives or about where you work etc etc. Derailing the topic and making no point to the thread other than to insult the one they dont like! Is that trolling as well as looking to shut down the Topic?

Absolutely. Like I said the only test as to whether a poster is trolling or not should be relevance to the topic at hand. And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, imo, the only restrictions should be in regard to attempts to disparage family members, threats of violence and threads created with the sole purpose of insulting another poster. If you're foolish enough to disclose where you work on an internet forum in this day and age you'll likely not need to worry about working there for long. :wink20:

shaarona

09-26-2012, 09:37 AM

What you don't seem to comprehend here is THERE ARE NO RULES AGAINST TROLLING ON THIS FORUM.

That's the purpose of this thread, right? To define what trolling is and ask whether there should be rules?

I agree about the personal insults. And agree that I'm guilty of doing the same thing. But again... why should I 'clean up my act' when the mods here are worse than any of the members?

Is it worse when a mod insults a member than when a member insults another member?

I'd say it is.

Unless, of course, y'all would like to run off all the 'newbies' and get back to the safe little circle you had before we found this place. That's the distinct impression I get... we're not very welcome here anymore.

Were the threads he criticized petty and hate-filled?

shaarona

09-26-2012, 09:39 AM

The irony , Margot , is that the Daily Mail is itself the one obvious News Paper troll in the UK . It's a ghastly little rag and used continually by the Extremists -- it is more right than Stalin and that is saying something .
The Reps here are probably some of its last readers .

Ha... I didn't know.. I tend to read the BBC against other publications.

Goldie Locks

09-26-2012, 09:47 AM

Look, we've all done it time to time, some just make a career out of it. Guess it's up to admin whether he wants to make trolling an offence here and define what that means.

IGetItAlready

09-26-2012, 09:49 AM

Ha... I didn't know.. I tend to read the BBC against other publications.

Consider yourself edumacated by the bellicose brit.

MMC

09-26-2012, 09:49 AM

What you don't seem to comprehend here is THERE ARE NO RULES AGAINST TROLLING ON THIS FORUM.

That's the purpose of this thread, right? To define what trolling is and ask whether there should be rules?

I agree about the personal insults. And agree that I'm guilty of doing the same thing. But again... why should I 'clean up my act' when the mods here are worse than any of the members?

Is it worse when a mod insults a member than when a member insults another member?

I'd say it is.

Unless, of course, y'all would like to run off all the 'newbies' and get back to the safe little circle you had before we found this place. That's the distinct impression I get... we're not very welcome here anymore.

Well my one point is.....YOU FEEL THE MODS are WORSE. You didnt feel that way until got into it with that mod.....Correct?

Naturally it's worse when a Mod steps outside their box. But they are people too. Worse is a Mod that makes up shit just to Mod something or somebody.

Why?......well since for the same reason you are leading the Charge in here while specifically pointing out a problem with a mod.. It's called leading by example. Which Goose and I did bring up the issue of other senior members Pming or doing what they can to help out.

Again I have recommended the basement, troll hole, or dungeon. Since the trolls are so easily identified. There should be no problem sending them to the hole. I also mentioned thread bans.

So what it is you are trying to define now? What Rule or Rules do you want to put in black and white?

Also you keep talkin about our safe little circle. Like we havent dealt with a Crew that came from another site or something.....huh? Or is it that we are just a conveinence to you until PF can work out their technical difficulties?

Smartmouthwoman

09-26-2012, 09:51 AM

Were the threads he criticized petty and hate-filled?

I suppose they were in his opinion. Nevermind the fact some of my 'petty' threads bring thousands of views to this site. Guess it's another case of liberals hating to see anyone succeed... even if it feathers their own nest.

MMC

09-26-2012, 09:53 AM

I suppose they were in his opinion. Nevermind the fact some of my 'petty' threads bring thousands of views to this site. Guess it's another case of liberals hating to see anyone succeed... even if it feathers their own nest.

Too bad I am not a liberal.....so there goes that theory Up in Smoke! Nice attempt with the paint brush tho.

Smartmouthwoman

09-26-2012, 10:00 AM

Well my one point is.....YOU FEEL THE MODS are WORSE. You didnt feel that way until got into it with that mod.....Correct?

Naturally it's worse when a Mod steps outside their box. But they are people too. Worse is a Mod that makes up shit just to Mod something or somebody.

Why?......well since for the same reason you are leading the Charge in here while specifically pointing out a problem with a mod.. It's called leading by example. Which Goose and I did bring up the issue of other senior members Pming or doing what they can to help out.

Again I have recommended the basement, troll hole, or dungeon. Since the trolls are so easily identified. There should be no problem sending them to the hole. I also mentioned thread bans.

So what it is you are trying to define now? What Rule or Rules do you want to put in black and white?

Also you keep talkin about our safe little circle. Like we havent dealt with a Crew that came from another site or something.....huh? Or is it that we are just a conveinence to you until PF can work out their technical difficulties?

'Dealt with' is an excellent way to put it.

'Welcomed' only worked for a month or so.

And for the record, my banter with Cigar is based on a weird mutual respect thing. I invited him to come here and he knows I'm only teasing about the wife thing. I did come down pretty hard on Margot... but we also have a long history.

FYI, I post on both forums... although I've been spending more and more time here BECAUSE I LIKE IT HERE.

Or at least I did until the attacks started.

Now I'm feeling downright unwelcome here.

Funny how fast things can turn around, isn't it?

MMC

09-26-2012, 10:00 AM

I suppose they were in his opinion. Nevermind the fact some of my 'petty' threads bring thousands of views to this site. Guess it's another case of liberals hating to see anyone succeed... even if it feathers their own nest.

Did you know the girly threads which havent even been up on the board do just the same? Also All the Music threads as well. Same with the UFO Hunters and Ancient Aliens. Which havent been current in some time. Imagine that!

Smartmouthwoman

09-26-2012, 10:02 AM

Too bad I am not a liberal.....so there goes that theory Up in Smoke! Nice attempt with the paint brush tho.

Even more reason they need to put you back 'on the payroll' -- too many lib mods spoil the broth.