Brexit

Enjoyed reading your debate on here.A lot talking sense .On the Last point on Trump if you talk to any sensible American , they will tell you that Trump is a complete tool Plenty of Pick ups with Trump/Pence stickers on tho .. and without trying to sound condescending,... honestly... I m thinking absolutely same scenario here re the likes of Farage ect.Oh , you can put BOJO in that barrel as well...whats wrong with the truth these day !!!!

I guess this thread had run out of steam possibly due to lack of interest, not a lot going on whilst the Conservatives reshuffled or a stalemate

However with Boris now at the helm?

What makes me laugh is all the stuff about a general election and why it would be good for the country. Quite frankly, if Parliament couldn't sort Brexit out before what hope for a coalition government where it may need 3 or if we're really unlucky, even more parties to agree on anything, let alone Brexit, to get a decision.

Far from anyone winning, the biggest loser stands to be the electorate.

When thinking about the future in that sort of scenario I can't help but feel reminded of that definition of a camel - a horse designed by a committee

The most depressing aspect of this for me is the complete driving out of pragmatism and nuance from both political and public debate, the trenches have been dug and the clowns are running the circus in Boris Johnson and Corbyn. Just look at how brexit-supporting MP's turned on the very concept of a brexit deal. Just look at how some brexit voters are chucking around utterly stupid terms like "traitor" towards anyone who advocates either a 2nd referendum or even a brexit deal. Look at some of the treatment 'leave with a deal' MPs are receiving from hardcore remainers.

BJ becoming PM will only make this worse. His rhetoric and standing mean more moderate remainers who are open to leaving with a sensible deal will be disgusted by him. Already there's talk of an electoral pact with Farage's mob, an all consuming focus on achieving power and absolutely zero pragmatism. Where's the actual solutions?

A post-Brexit Boris Britain will be a disaster for the vast majority of those who voted for it. Tax breaks for the rich and no-one else while public services descend into new levels of suffering. Homelessness is already too high, the cost of living is already too high, foodbank usage is already too high. Brexit has not only diverted attention, resources, and political will away from the real issues, but it will serve to make every single one of them worse. This isn't project fear, it's common sense that significant disruption to our relationship with our closest trading partners will cause AT LEAST a short term recession. It's all very well spouting "blitz spirit" stuff at the moment, just don't come complaining when medicine supplies are disrupted, food prices rise, and public services suffer. Actions, meet consequences.

We need people brave enough to tell us what we need to hear right now, rather than what we want to hear. We can make Brexit work and respect the result of the referendum by agreeing a deal with the EU along the lines of what Switzerland or Norway have but this needs compromise. Sadly, the vast majority of problems that have arisen in the last few years have been due to the loudest Brexiteers acting as if a narrow (and legally debatable) victory in an extremely vaguely worded referendum question gives them absolute and unquestionable authority to do as they wish with our country. They need to learn to compromise fast, else they risk driving us to a 2nd referendum (arguably the least worst option at this desperate point) and losing the Brexit they campaigned for. It's time for an awful lot of people in this country to start dealing in reality, there's some very simple ground rules we all have to start looking at.

- The breaking up of the Union is probably not a price worth paying. Scotland leaving is a blow, but if they go they go. Northern Ireland however...- NORTHERN IRISH PEACE IS NOT A BARGAINING CHIP TO BE GAMBLED WITH. The Good Friday Agreement is genuinely one of the most impressive thing this country has managed to achieve, a rare example of us actually managing to clean up our historical mess. And the absolute core founding principle of it is complete freedom of movement across both borders. Therefore we have to keep at least some degree of freedom of movement, the fact this have even been discussed as something to chuck away is frankly abhorrent.- Making an exit deal with the EU is leaving the EU.- Leaving with No Deal would cause significant short term disruption to the entire manufacturing sector, food imports, and most importantly medicine imports. Long term economic disruption is a bit more debatable, but the absolute best case scenario is a short term (4/5 year) recession. Given we still haven't really recovered from the previous one, I'm not sure that's something a lot of people in this country can cope with. I bet Boris and Nigel will cope just fine however. - Most of those who want to leave the EU want it for a better future for this country. Please remember that is exactly what remainers want too! No-one is a traitor for god's sake.- A 2nd referendum wouldn't be as undemocratic as many think. The first result wasn't exactly clear-cut, and it's pretty obvious the situation has evolved significantly in the 3 years since. If leaving is still the will of the people, it will win the 2nd referendum, simple as. A 2nd ref might be necessary due to just how poor the first one was, with no grounding of what "Leave" meant and no legal bind on the result. We can learn from our mistakes here and get a clear route forward.- Being in the Single Market is not the same as being in the EU.- Being in the Customs Unions is not the same as being in the EU.

I truly believe in this country to find a solution to this, but that's kind of the point. We are the country, not Boris Johnson, not Farage, not Corbyn or Swinson or May. How can we expect them to be any better without being better ourselves. They’ll only start being pragmatic when we stop rewarding them for being populist.

It is abundantly clear that this country want the Brexit issue sorted, one way or another. The election of Boris J as PM is the best chance that it will be resolved. But of course he faces the exact same problems that bedevilled Theresa M - Parliament is evenly divided. And there is no clear cut answer. Another General Election would almost return similar balance of MPs, another Referendum would likely return similar outcome for OUT. But Brexit may be taken out of Parliaments hands. Europe is also fed up with Brexit because the uncertainty also affect them.President Macron might go down the De Gaulle route and say NON, which automatically means UK leaves the EU.

The Old TomCat wrote:It is abundantly clear that this country want the Brexit issue sorted, one way or another. The election of Boris J as PM is the best chance that it will be resolved. But of course he faces the exact same problems that bedevilled Theresa M - Parliament is evenly divided. And there is no clear cut answer. Another General Election would almost return similar balance of MPs, another Referendum would likely return similar outcome for OUT. But Brexit may be taken out of Parliaments hands. Europe is also fed up with Brexit because the uncertainty also affect them.President Macron might go down the De Gaulle route and say NON, which automatically means UK leaves the EU.

+1 except I can't see an election returning a similar balance of MPs, just an almighty squabble.The sooner we get out via Brexit the better iMO. At least we'll be in a position to move forwards into the future - whatever that may be.

dursleydog wrote::oops: The most depressing aspect of this for me is the complete driving out of pragmatism and nuance from both political and public debate, the trenches have been dug and the clowns are running the circus in Boris Johnson and Corbyn. Just look at how brexit-supporting MP's turned on the very concept of a brexit deal. Just look at how some brexit voters are chucking around utterly stupid terms like "traitor" towards anyone who advocates either a 2nd referendum or even a brexit deal. Look at some of the treatment 'leave with a deal' MPs are receiving from hardcore remainers.

BJ becoming PM will only make this worse. His rhetoric and standing mean more moderate remainers who are open to leaving with a sensible deal will be disgusted by him. Already there's talk of an electoral pact with Farage's mob, an all consuming focus on achieving power and absolutely zero pragmatism. Where's the actual solutions?

A post-Brexit Boris Britain will be a disaster for the vast majority of those who voted for it. Tax breaks for the rich and no-one else while public services descend into new levels of suffering. Homelessness is already too high, the cost of living is already too high, foodbank usage is already too high. Brexit has not only diverted attention, resources, and political will away from the real issues, but it will serve to make every single one of them worse. This isn't project fear, it's common sense that significant disruption to our relationship with our closest trading partners will cause AT LEAST a short term recession. It's all very well spouting "blitz spirit" stuff at the moment, just don't come complaining when medicine supplies are disrupted, food prices rise, and public services suffer. Actions, meet consequences.

We need people brave enough to tell us what we need to hear right now, rather than what we want to hear. We can make Brexit work and respect the result of the referendum by agreeing a deal with the EU along the lines of what Switzerland or Norway have but this needs compromise. Sadly, the vast majority of problems that have arisen in the last few years have been due to the loudest Brexiteers acting as if a narrow (and legally debatable) victory in an extremely vaguely worded referendum question gives them absolute and unquestionable authority to do as they wish with our country. They need to learn to compromise fast, else they risk driving us to a 2nd referendum (arguably the least worst option at this desperate point) and losing the Brexit they campaigned for. It's time for an awful lot of people in this country to start dealing in reality, there's some very simple ground rules we all have to start looking at.

- The breaking up of the Union is probably not a price worth paying. Scotland leaving is a blow, but if they go they go. Northern Ireland however...- NORTHERN IRISH PEACE IS NOT A BARGAINING CHIP TO BE GAMBLED WITH. The Good Friday Agreement is genuinely one of the most impressive thing this country has managed to achieve, a rare example of us actually managing to clean up our historical mess. And the absolute core founding principle of it is complete freedom of movement across both borders. Therefore we have to keep at least some degree of freedom of movement, the fact this have even been discussed as something to chuck away is frankly abhorrent.- Making an exit deal with the EU is leaving the EU.- Leaving with No Deal would cause significant short term disruption to the entire manufacturing sector, food imports, and most importantly medicine imports. Long term economic disruption is a bit more debatable, but the absolute best case scenario is a short term (4/5 year) recession. Given we still haven't really recovered from the previous one, I'm not sure that's something a lot of people in this country can cope with. I bet Boris and Nigel will cope just fine however. - Most of those who want to leave the EU want it for a better future for this country. Please remember that is exactly what remainers want too! No-one is a traitor for god's sake.- A 2nd referendum wouldn't be as undemocratic as many think. The first result wasn't exactly clear-cut, and it's pretty obvious the situation has evolved significantly in the 3 years since. If leaving is still the will of the people, it will win the 2nd referendum, simple as. A 2nd ref might be necessary due to just how poor the first one was, with no grounding of what "Leave" meant and no legal bind on the result. We can learn from our mistakes here and get a clear route forward.- Being in the Single Market is not the same as being in the EU.- Being in the Customs Unions is not the same as being in the EU.

I truly believe in this country to find a solution to this, but that's kind of the point. We are the country, not Boris Johnson, not Farage, not Corbyn or Swinson or May. How can we expect them to be any better without being better ourselves. They’ll only start being pragmatic when we stop rewarding them for being populist.

For the first time ever I am losing my humane traits. I have always wanted the system and politicians to do well by all, providing equal opportunities, ending the dominance of Eton in governing our country, etc etc.

But now as you say, those who most support Brexit are the ones who are going to be left most destitute by it. And for the first time rather than trying to help these people I think f*ck ‘em. I would even go as far as setting up soup kitchens, food banks, school breakfast clubs etc to help with the social fallout and destruction Boris and Farage will bring to communities but refuse to serve or help Leave voters. They f*cked up my future and the future of my younger relatives and they will never be forgiven. Leave voters must be at the front of the job loss queue and back of the food bank queue - they have to have it rammed down their throats how stupid they were.

You’re right on some points EE, but I try to save my anger for those who truly deserve it. The charlatans in power who allowed/made this happen, who lied and cheated their way to personal gain at the expense of a generations bright future.

I echo E-E's thoughts here and simply add, that when they can't afford their holidays abroad -tough (boy will they moan though),and when there are insufficient facilities and or people to look after them in old age in care homes-even more tough.

i wonder how many of those Nissan workers in sunderland who 3 years ago bragged about we've got our 'britishness back' after voting to leave feel at the moment ?

i guess our taxes will now rise and be used to prop them up .

yes-in 64 years-i similarly for the first time feel very bitter with a result and reaction largely based on ignorance (the latter not their fault )

michael wrote:I echo E-E's thoughts here and simply add, that when they can't afford their holidays abroad -tough (boy will they moan though),and when there are insufficient facilities and or people to look after them in old age in care homes-even more tough.

i wonder how many of those Nissan workers in sunderland who 3 years ago bragged about we've got our 'britishness back' after voting to leave feel at the moment ?

i guess our taxes will now rise and be used to prop them up .

yes-in 64 years-i similarly for the first time feel very bitter with a result and reaction largely based on ignorance (the latter not their fault )

It reminds be a bit of a certain generation that largely voted for widespread austerity measures for years, then lose their cool when the free tv licence gets taken away from them. When they finally have to reap a tiny proportion of what they’ve sown, any semblance of “blitz spirit” goes out the window

michael wrote:I echo E-E's thoughts here and simply add, that when they can't afford their holidays abroad -tough (boy will they moan though),and when there are insufficient facilities and or people to look after them in old age in care homes-even more tough.

i wonder how many of those Nissan workers in sunderland who 3 years ago bragged about we've got our 'britishness back' after voting to leave feel at the moment ?

i guess our taxes will now rise and be used to prop them up .

yes-in 64 years-i similarly for the first time feel very bitter with a result and reaction largely based on ignorance (the latter not their fault )

It reminds be a bit of a certain generation that largely voted for widespread austerity measures for years, then lose their cool when the free tv licence gets taken away from them. When they finally have to reap a tiny proportion of what they’ve sown, any semblance of “blitz spirit” goes out the window

Steady on there D/D and E/E. Your discussions point to age discrimination here.

With good health and fortune, you may one day become two of those retired generation and completely perform a volte-face from your immediate opinions. Something to remember and think about.

michael wrote:I echo E-E's thoughts here and simply add, that when they can't afford their holidays abroad -tough (boy will they moan though),and when there are insufficient facilities and or people to look after them in old age in care homes-even more tough.

i wonder how many of those Nissan workers in sunderland who 3 years ago bragged about we've got our 'britishness back' after voting to leave feel at the moment ?

i guess our taxes will now rise and be used to prop them up .

yes-in 64 years-i similarly for the first time feel very bitter with a result and reaction largely based on ignorance (the latter not their fault )

It reminds be a bit of a certain generation that largely voted for widespread austerity measures for years, then lose their cool when the free tv licence gets taken away from them. When they finally have to reap a tiny proportion of what they’ve sown, any semblance of “blitz spirit” goes out the window

Steady on there D/D and E/E. Your discussions point to age discrimination here.

With good health and fortune, you may one day become two of those retired generation and completely perform a volte-face from your immediate opinions. Something to remember and think about.

It’s of course a gross oversimplification based on statistics across a population, not something to be applied on an individual basis. Sadly, some of the assumptions and grief I’ve personally received from older people based on nothing but my age far outstrip much of what’s been said on here.

valid point FA -excepting that i am already an old git with plenty of bits going wrong -and by way of my post-a miserable old git as well ; albeit admittedly i do aspire to be 25 still . work hard at achieving that ,which in reality is a bit pathetic of me.

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