Single shot kills

Alpha Tester

so I was running a simulation based on Conan comics. Often times Conan dispatches opponents with a single stab or blow. This seems to not be possible with the Battle Royale system. Even getting a crit (master) only does a single body damage. With most humans running around with 16 stamina - it seems impossible to one hit someone. Is this correct or am I missing something?

Developer

There is one thing to keep in mind: Battle Royale represents basic humans with only the absolute minimum of training in how to use a couple of weapons each. The Talent system will allow characters to be significantly more threatening, though 1-hit kills are still effectively impossible.

It can help to remember that Stamina represents a character's ability to "defy" injury, and isn't really the same thing as "hit points" in other games. A blow absorbed mostly or entirely through stamina represents the character narrowly dodging an attack, or being able to shrug off the damage. Against a strong attacker, Stamina may only last for a couple of hits. And it is entirely possible to do 10+ damage, which can 1-hit-kill a fully healthy individual who has run out of stamina.

Also, isn't Conan rather "superhuman?" The core Myth Maker systems aren't really targeted at super-hero scale content. We're aiming at a sort of idealized-realism scale of content, where characters are a bit more down-to-earth than supers, but can be a bit more special than in a gritty-realism game.

Developer

Stamina represents the ability to avoid that kind of lethal damage. In general, getting through someone's Stamina and hitting their Body directly is tricky and requires situational circumstances (like mastery) and/or talents (which haven't been released yet).

Conan is one talented mofo, but his ability to kill so easily in Myth Maker would probably rely not just on talents, but also the Vitality system (the magic for people who don't have magic). Even then, it may not be entirely feasible to play a character quite as powerful as Conan without additional magical blessings / items / or some other spiritual assistance. In a sci fi setting, a character like Conan might rely on nanomachines, cybernetics, or other tech to accomplish that kind of power.

Right now we don't really have these kinds of tools to make a character that would be that powerful, but all this stuff is on its way. The next playtest, which introduces talents, will have some pretty tough samurai.

Alpha Tester

Right. Ok, this is mostly about average humans in combat - realistic in that sense. A Conan, a Demi-God -mythological type, would not fit into this system because it is not designed as such.
With that being said, I'll run some tactical units against each other using basic human stats of 8,8 and 8.

Alpha Tester

That is what I was thinking - I gave Conan 10 Spirit, 9 Body and 8 Mind. Even with these stats though, he was still unable to wrought the level of destruction as he does in comics. He would need something akin to ignoring Stamina or increase damage but quite a bit. Speaking of, if you do more than opponent's current stamina, does it get added into body damage?

Developer

Alpha Tester

Not thinking of stamina damage as structural damage makes much more sense. In sparring matches the first strike almost never connects, even if the striker is vastly superior. It's only after the target has used up their evasive potential that they are truly hit.

Conan sounds cool though. I might try playing around with the stats a bit to see how more powerful opponents might work.

I can agree that one hit kills ought not to be impossible. Will there be any rule for attacking without concern for one's own health? Like taking a sword through the gut in order to inflict the same to your enemy.

I can agree that one hit kills ought not to be impossible. Will there be any rule for attacking without concern for one's own health? Like taking a sword through the gut in order to inflict the same to your enemy.

Click to expand...

This kind of thing falls pretty squarely into the storytelling side of things. Later this year as we get into the other core systems (especially storytelling), I think you'll all be more able to see how everything fits together to give you that epic tale you've always wanted out of a tabletop game (even if you didn't know it).

Developer

I might try playing around with the stats a bit to see how more powerful opponents might work.

Click to expand...

We've found that using the 25-point stat distribution is quite important, even for heroic characters and/or big scary monsters. If you want a person or creature to be super-powered, it's best to do so with traits and talents. In a week, we'll be releasing the Seven Samurai playtest, and you'll get to see how the core combat talents shake up the game quite a bit. Significantly stronger talents or racial traits could be used to add things like super strength, super speed, flight, invulnerability, laser eyes, etc. (though such a character should probably have some sort of weakness...)

Alpha Tester

Not thinking of stamina damage as structural damage makes much more sense. In sparring matches the first strike almost never connects, even if the striker is vastly superior. It's only after the target has used up their evasive potential that they are truly hit.

Click to expand...

You must have missed the last Connor MacGregor fight...besides that...a superior swordsman can, and did eviscerate their opponents in a single blow
A master of almost any martial-knowledge can and will defeat a neonate in the same field. From my own experience in grappling, a quick choke on an unsuspecting opponent often put things in perspective. 9 times out of 10, the experienced grappler will finish the match without taking any damage and doing it in less than a minute.

Being a combatant in the Society of Creative Anachronism also showed me that the same principles apply in melee weapons training. If you are going against a run-of-the-mill fighter and you had been fighting for some time, then a feint followed by a scorpion shot or a wrap around would effectively "kill" the opponent, often times the opposition did not even have the chance to strike a blow. One shots possible? easily. Really depends on the difference of skill/experience. That was the issue I was running into with the Conan scenario. Such a superior swordsman could easily one shot kill opponents who were inferior to them, but the battle system does not allow for it. I have added the personal narrative to lend weight to the idea that one-shots did, do and can happen and is often decided by the difference in skill levels of the combatants. Thus, the idea that such a difference of weapon mastery could lead to a scenario were the superior fighter would effectively ignore the opponent's stamina rating and damage directly to the body.

Developer

You're right, actually. Our battle system IS a lot more forgiving than real life, and for some good reasons. We did try various systems more like what you describe in the past, but making combat so deadly seemed to have a largely detrimental effect on the kind of extended campaigns people often run in tabletop RPGs. If instant kills and RL-level brutality is what you want out of a combat system, Myth Maker may not be the ideal system for that kind if play.

Alpha Tester

So far, I have enjoyed the mechanics and believe that there is quite a bit of value in the Myth Maker system...as you say, it lends itself to hedge on the side of defense and wear an opponent down. I think it is great for small tactics and gives a realistic feel to similar matched opponents. The only issue that I find with Battle Royale, is that a clearly superior foe is not able to show that superiority on the battlefield. But there are simple modifications that could be made to allow for such an occurrence (you have already built them in with size/scale differences)

Developer

This is one of those instances of realism vs. game mechanics vs. storytelling. Instant kills work in in 2/3rds of those categories, but absolutely devestate gameplay because you can so easily lose a character. Stamina gives a buffer that signals the player when death is imminent and when NPCs should generally flee. In the past we've attempted to allow a lot more body damage at the beginning of a fight, but we couldn't find a way to make that into a fun or unstressful experience.

Ultimately, instadeath either feeds a power fantasy adventure, which classic tabletop RPGs already handle well, or a roguelike where you can't properly develop a character worthy of being a character in a mythology or epic (which is our focus).

This reminds me of Bushido Blade for the PS1 which was super realistic for a fighting game. It ultimately failed for that reason because people didn't like the instant death blows. Its sequel was much more conventional as a result. I don't think there's a market for that kind of brutality, honestly. People want to escape realism even while wanting their games to be generally realistic .

This is a great topic of discussion though and we are trying to err on realism whenever we feel it doesn't detract from the gameplay or storytelling of the system.