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Pastor Ken Writes to BE

Posted on: February 13, 2006 - 3:46am

Rook_Hawkins

Posts: 1322

Joined: 2006-02-11

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Pastor Ken Writes to BE

Hi Ken, my name is Rook Hawkins, I help Dennis answer some of his mail. Since he is so busy and recieves so much e-mail, I and several other members form a panel to lend him a hand. He'll answer you shortly, if he hasn't already.

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KEN: A response to the following He rewards liars. I could answer most of these objections but NOT all of them. (I am still studying)

Rook: Let's see how you did.

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KEN: In any good legal system a judge is able to take into account mitigating circumstances. A system devoid of bringing to the forefront ?all? of the relevant factors cannot be the most equitable system. God himself has given us laws to follow but these laws are ALWAYS to be understood contextually.

Rook: Come now, Ken. The Bible itself says that it is not to be interpreted privately. 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

If we could simply interpret the Bible to our wills content, we could make vague staments, which plague the book, to mean anything. Further if we are to assume we can't take it literally, which you are assuming, you'd be hard pressed to explain how you can take anything literally. That includes the events surrounding Jesus.

Moreover, you'll come to see that context is absent when contradictions are involved. If person A says the car crashed at 2 am, and person B says 4 am, does it really matter what kind of cars were involved in the accident? You're grabbing at straws here, Pastor.

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KEN: (AND THIS IS ONE OF THE VERY TEXTS WHICH MAKE THIS CLEAR!!!)This is markedly different then Anthoiny Flews almost famous work in ethics. We are not to lie but we can lie to protect the life of another.

Rook: Okay, so you want it both ways. You want to lie, but only when it suits you. How are you to properly differentiate between good lying and bad lying? Hitler lied to the Germans about the 7 million jews he had murdered, and he did so to protect his life, his reputation and his vision. The church leaders in charge of the Spanish Inquisition lied to the mass numbers of Christians which lead to the slaughter or millions of innocent christians, jews and muslims, many of which were children, teens and women. They were lying for the good of the Christian world, and in their view it was justified.

So how is it, Pastor Ken? Is it "lie when we feel like it?" or is it "you cannot lie at all? Because tehre is no grey area. You either are lying or you're not. The Bible is very clear on which one you are not to do, and I don't think you should be arguing with your book. Especially on a point so heavily ingrained in it.

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Ken: The value of telling the gestapo, "no I have not seen the Jews" is a lie, BUT is not a sin, even though YOU seem to think that it is!

Rook: Dennis does not claim he thinks anything. He is only pointing to the fact that YOUR book says lying is a sin. Period. YOU may not think it's a sin, but what you think and your book says are not the same thing. Even if you wish it were so.

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Ken: I prefer GOD and his bible which clearly does not agree with your system. (Thank God)

Rook: I'll ignore the insult, but the lie I will not stand for. The bible is again very clear on lying. Simply because the lie was intentionally good, does it mean the lie is less of a lie? Of course not. St. Augustine defined lying as "a lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving." (De Mendacio 4, 5: PL 40, 491) Indeed, your God seems to denounce lying as the work of Satan, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 4:88) and states very strongly in the eigth commandment that it IS a sin according to your book. A lie, no matter it's intentions, are a direct act of dishonesty, and according to your Bible, it is against the law of God. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6)

You were so quick to jump on the court system's way of doing things, if you lied in a court of law, you'd become a false witness, and under oath you'd have committed perjury. Regardless of intentions, you would have lied, you couldn't talk your way out of such a thing, and here it is no different.

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Ken: That is one of the points of the text. It demostrates rather clearly that God does not lie down some arbitrary law and then says oh sorry my people have to reveal your hiding place so now you must be put to death.

Rook: No, he is quite clear that if you lie you are committing an act of sin. "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord; but they who deal truly are His delight." (Prov. 12:22) Who said anything about death? Making up strawmen?

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KEN: by the gestapo. NO! God values human life and sees NO sin in saving the life of the innocent from the evil of others.

Rook: Except if you lie, then you are sinning. You'd like it both ways, but once more, that isn't the case.

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KEN: There exists the two competing values do not lie and love your neighbor. God has simply shown us his take on it which seems infinitely better then a legalistic myopic you can never lie period.

Rook: Chapter and verse? Obviously you're making this up, as I provided ample verses which show lying is a sin. Nowhere does it say "lying to protect your neighbor is okay." You're adding to the text, when clearly the bible already says the opposite.

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KEN: Be honest if you were the Jew in hiding what sort of God (if one existed) would you think is better.

Rook: What does it matter what you or I or Dennis think? This is your misconception, applying your opinions to a book that needs no interpretation. The bible says lying is a sin, get over it. If your whole point is based on what you THINK should be morally right, then I agree with you. But if you are trying to place that opinion in the bible, I'm sorry to say it's just not apparent. Although you'd have us believe it were the case. I'm not that gullible.

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KEN: Here the best is clearly the God of the Bible and even you cann?t argue with that!

Rook: I have and will continue to do so. Your point holds no water. Why do you speak for God? Does God speak to you? Do you talk to him frequently?

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KEN: And yet you try to use this text to paint a completely distorted view of this God as if he is some sort of bad guy when just the opposite is true at least in this text!

Rook: Oh come now, Ken, and you have the gull to call this a "reasoned" response? Are you kidding me? Dennis does not distort the text, and has never done so. He just states exactly what the Bible says for all to see. YOU are the one distorting it's words, and all you have to show as evidence of your case is personal opinion. In a court of law, your case would have been thrown out before it ever hit preliminarys. You still have not provided one scintilla of scripture to back up your statements, and have ignored all the scripture contrary to your argument. Do you really think preaching to us is going to make us see your world view? Please.

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KEN: (If a predatory rapist came to my door and my 14 year old girl answered it, I would not mind her deceiving this potential rapist by yelling out, ?Dad someone is here to see you? and letting him know that I?m in the bathroom even if I am not at home. I would be proud of her quick thinking

Rook: And I'm sure everyone would be, myself included, but that is irrelevant. Once again YOUR OPINION does not change the fact that the Bible states lying is a sin against God.

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KEN: and she would not have violated the spirit of our house rule NO LYING.

Rook: But your house rules aren't going to damn anybody to eternal hell. In fact, that would be breaking the rules, but her motivation for breaking the rules would be acceptable to the standards of morality you hold. However, she still broke the rules. It is one of those "ends justify the means" sort of things. But when dealing with the book you base your faith on, the word of your GOD (not you, a fallible human), lying is an abomination and a mortal sin. Once more, simply because you don't think it should be does not change the fact that according to your book, it is.

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KEN: Does God have less wisdom and understanding then me? I think NOT

Rook: Non-sequitor, Ken. It's also begging the question.

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KEN: Your characterization of him from this passage misses the beauty of his rich values and you end up only with a character assassination which benefits no one.

Rook: Dennis does not need to assassinate the character of your God. The Bible does enough in and of itself to make God out to be a ruthless, vendictive murderering thug. All one needs to do is READ the very book in question to see that. And BE does a nice job of showing it in all it's glory, easily referenced, and stated very concisely. If you have problems reading and comprehending the material, that is not our problem.

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KEN: But should people live by the values I see in this passage we would live in a much better world and even you would have to agree to that.)

Rook: If people stopped living by the values of the Bible, we WOULD live much better, in a free-minded society where secularism was the only true defining characteristic of one person to another. The Bible is full of irrationalities, poor morality, murder, death, destruction, lies, deceit, genocide, discrimination, intolerance and hatred. You obviously haven't been studying hard enough.

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KEN: I appreciate your challenges the church needs to listen to people like you so that we become clear on who it is we serve and what is his real nature.

Rook: This is more of your miscomprehension. I think you misunderstand the very point of BE. Or maybe you do understand it and are lying to yourself in spite of the expounding evidence against you.

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KEN: Not just a hoped for nature.

Rook: Why do you presume to speak for God? Are you God?

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KEN: At the very least based on this passage we have to agree that there are two very possible interpretations.

Rook: I don't have to agree to anything you suggest, claim, assert or wish for. And you are doing all the above. You have proved nothing and only made yourself look ignorant.

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KEN: A) God rewards liars and so He must be ethically inferior in some way.

Rook: Which would be true according to your book.

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KEN: B) God reveals to us that though he is the author of the law do not lie, yet he has shown favor to those who risked their own lives to save the lives of the innocent from a very real evil. This gives us a fuller picture of him.

Rook: Which would be false, and your view of the world according to Pastor Ken. This is simply not biblical and totally your bullshit claim. I call you on your bluff and laugh at your distasteful attempt at deceiving the members of this panel, and Mr. McKinsey as you mish-moshed your way through this problem. In the end you accomplished nothing.

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KEN: In this case either could be true but B is much richer and A is impoverished. Pastor Ken

Rook: Once more, only ONE is true, B is your fantastical opinion on what the bible SHOULD say, and A is what it does say. Go back to studying.

Read my sig. 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

The Bible states what it says very clearly. If you don't like what the Bible says, perhaps you shouldn't be in this forum.

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and only another athiest would think you have proven anything, for you clearly have not.

This is ironic, considering you have not given one rebuttal for any Bible verse posted.

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Firstly, the ten commandments, of which "do not bear false witness against your neighbor", or more cleanly put "do not lie", is one, are not ten rules that we have to follow.

Quite the contrary, you are required by jesus. Your savior states, several times in the Gospels, that you need to follow the Ten Commandments. This is CLEARLY a problem of your inability to do your homework. You are attacking my commentary from a position of ignorance. I'll even list them to help you out.

Matt. 19:16-18 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mark 10:17-19, "Good master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life. And Jesus said to him, Why call thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor thy father and thy mother...

Luke 18:18-22, "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother..."

Try again.

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They are guidelines for a perfect life, but, as you will find in the Bible, it is very clear that the laws, the Ten Commandments are there for one main purpose, to reveal sin.

Chapter and verse?

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These laws show us that we sin every day of our lives.

Non-sequitor. You claim a lot and prove nothing.

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These laws are there to show us this sin, and show us that we NEED Christ.

Non-sequitor. You prefer the old addage, "Preach but don't prove." You make vague statements and fail to back them up. Not only do you assert but you are pulling the topic away from lying. You do know that is commentary was about lying, right? Did you even read the post?

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I will not say I have never sinned. I have broken each and every commandment, but God sees me as a perfect person, because Jesus Christ died to set me free from this sin, and I will be forgiven each and every time I ask. It never stops, and that's what's so wonderful. A miracle you might say.

Who cares what you think? Or what happened to you? Or what you went through? I certainly don't. Stop trying to devert the subject. This isn't about your life experiences and it isn't about mine. It's about the Bibles errors, more specifically concerning lying. If you don't like what is being said, perhaps you should stop seeking the answers and remain delusional.

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Since we understand that we are not expected to follow the commandments, in fact, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to because we sin, we also understand that we should still strive towards it because it's what God wants.

Now you're stretching and concocting lies. The Bible is very clear about the commandments.All one needs to do is read, something you seem to be uncomfortable with. You seem more then comfortable distracting the reader from the subject of this thread, and more content preaching then proving.

Even God said to Moses upon the renewal of the Tablets, "Before the eyes of all your people I will work such marvels as have never been wrought in any nation anywhere on earth, so that this people among whom you live may see how awe-inspiring are the deeds which I, the LORD, will do at your side. BUT YOU, ON YOUR PART, MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS I AM GIVING YOU TODAY." (Exodus 34:10-11)

He didn't say "Follow these guidelines," he COMMANDED you to follow them. You are inserting words into the text and stating what just isn't there.

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However, when it comes to lying, the Nazi Germany lie vs. murder is something I've brought up often. Here's the answer.
Pray.

Here's a question, why are you dodging the commentary? If you have soemthing contextual to add to this thread, add it. If you just want to preach, go to AvT. So far you have done little else but claim, assert, dodge, ignore, and make judgements on characters of those who post here.

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Lying is bad. Why? Because we lie for selfish reasons- to get ourselves out of trouble, to blame other people.

Non-sequitor and a straw man.

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But would God rather we lied or let someone die?

God is very clear on which one, as I stated above.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 4:88)

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6)

"Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord; but they who deal truly are His delight." (Prov. 12:22)

Further you are pressuming to speak for God. Unless youare God, you cannot state what his intentions are. All we have is the Bible, and in the Bible he makes it very clear that regardless of situations, lying is a sin. not only is it a sin, it's an abomination, a way to darkness, and leads to the devil.

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The Nazis were guilty of sin as well, and God says no sin is worse than another.

Did you even read my post?

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So yes, in a sense, even if you're saving a life, it is still technically a "sin" to lie.

That is my whole point. It's a sin to lie, regardless, you're going to hell. I rest my case. The rest of your post is worthless in relation to this one statement. You have said it all. There is no debate here. Lying is a sin, period.

KEN: Be honest if you were the Jew in hiding what sort of God (if one existed) would you think is better.

I think somebody isn't thinking. Be honest: if you were a Jew in hiding, would you really be questioning the god who doesn't allow one to lie and conceal you, or would you be questioning a god that would allow the immediate circumstances to exist? The Holocaust or no lying, which demonstrates a questionably benevolent god? Hmmm.

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KEN: (If a predatory rapist came to my door and my 14 year old girl answered it, I would not mind her deceiving this potential rapist by yelling out, ?Dad someone is here to see you? and letting him know that I?m in the bathroom even if I am not at home. I would be proud of her quick thinking

First I would like to know exactly how the daughter determines who is and isn't a "predatory rapist". Does she just tell this "forgivable" sin of a lie each and every time an unknown visitor knocks on the door? If so, and the stranger isn't a predatory rapist, is her sin forgivable?

Second, if this rapist is indeed predatory, how would a father in the bathroom deter him from preying on the daughter? If anything, while this may lead the rapist to believe the father is nearby, it also let's him know that the father is unavailable. This is a pretty crappy analogy.

Third, wouldn't god or jesus or the holy ghost or gaurdian angels be of more protection than the idea of a present human father?

Read my sig. 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

your reading from the KJV... 2 peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation.

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Quite the contrary, you are required by jesus. Your savior states, several times in the Gospels, that you need to follow the Ten Commandments. This is CLEARLY a problem of your inability to do your homework. You are attacking my commentary from a position of ignorance. I'll even list them to help you out.

well actually the ten commandments are only really just 2 laws. and that is Love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, heart, and strength and then Love your nieghbor as yourself.

but of course us being humans we fail so Jesus being the perfect one came down to this earth to save humanity. the ten commandments are mirrors for us saying that you are not perfect.

as it is written:

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

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It's about the Bibles errors, more specifically concerning lying. If you don't like what is being said, perhaps you should stop seeking the answers and remain delusional.

what is the topic?

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That is my whole point. It's a sin to lie, regardless, you're going to hell. I rest my case. The rest of your post is worthless in relation to this one statement. You have said it all. There is no debate here. Lying is a sin, period

actually, Not telling the truth in order to preserve a higher moral law ( Rahab, Joshua 2) may well be the right thing to do and so is not really a lie.
and there is a difference between lieing and not just telling the truth
kind of like a difference between injustified and justified homicide.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

1: JesusSaves, this forum might be a little over your head. You might want to take that "questions only" approach in here more than any other forum on our board.

2. Rook, please don't be too harsh here. I wont touch it this is your section, but be nice when you show him the err in his ways. I must say, a little hard not to speak up on the 2 commandments. :shock:

Read my sig. 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

your reading from the KJV... 2 peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation.

JS, this is saying exactly the same thing here that I said. There is no difference. Both of these texts state that GOD is the one who wrote the Bible, and that those who were writing it down got their information from YHWH. There is no other way to interpret that passage, and thus my point still remains.

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Quite the contrary, you are required by jesus. Your savior states, several times in the Gospels, that you need to follow the Ten Commandments. This is CLEARLY a problem of your inability to do your homework. You are attacking my commentary from a position of ignorance. I'll even list them to help you out.

well actually the ten commandments are only really just 2 laws. and that is Love the Lord your God with all your mind, soul, heart, and strength and then Love your nieghbor as yourself.

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" (Prov. 30:6).

And we can't forget the most chilling one from Rev. 22:18-19, "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book."

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven...." (Matt. 5:17-19)

"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fall" (Luke 16:17)

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do" (Matt. 23:2-3, John 7:19, Mark 1:44)

There is no grey area there. You either follow the laws God has set out for you in the OT, or you burn for eternity. In fact, God even said to Moses upon the renewal of the Tablets, "Before the eyes of all your people I will work such marvels as have never been wrought in any nation anywhere on earth, so that this people among whom you live may see how awe-inspiring are the deeds which I, the LORD, will do at your side. BUT YOU, ON YOUR PART, MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS I AM GIVING YOU TODAY." (Exodus 34:10-11)

I'll do you a favor, JS, I'll help you by showing you some of the things Jesus and God command us to do, okay? Your mission as a true Christian is to do exactly what these say:

Leviticus 20:9, "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Couldn't we try like, spanking the kid first? How about that?)

Leviticus 24:16, "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." (Little bit of an ego problem there, god?)

In Numbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, God shows us how hospitable he is when he says "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death."

Numbers 5:2-4, "Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell. And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel." (What ever happened to trying to help the sick instead of just abandoning them to the wild? One can only imagine the heartbreak of having to expell your own mother or father, grandfather or favorite aunt and unlc esimply because they are sick, and watching them wander off without help from the world, and all because god says so.)

Numbers 14:18, "The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (One can only imagine what it would be like to be hauled away for a bank robbery your great great great grandfather did generations ago. ...Wait a tic, wasn't there something about children not being held accountable for their fathers crimes somewhere in the old testament as well? Ah right, here it is: Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Well this is just darn confusing!)

The Israelites find a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. God commands them to kill him by throwing rocks at him. Numbers 15:32-36, "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."

And most of us drive daily on saturdays (and sundays). Poor guy, too bad he wasn't born just a few thousand years later, when people didn't kill somebody because they thought some ancient words in a holy book told them so....we don't believe in a jealous god anymore that demands an entire nation of people to be exterminated and destroyed along with all of their religious symbols and possessions. (Num. 33:50-52)

Oh, right. Heh, I guess I was wrong, they still do and have.

17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]

17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore&quot had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.

By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]

Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli?, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:

In 1994 in the small African country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:

More recently the BBC aired:

Psalm 58:3 says, "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Notice it says they are wicked, speaking lies, "as soon as they be born."

Job 14:4 says, "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one." Yet, many apologists would have us believe that somehow newborns are free from sin and impurity after birth and for that reason cannot be condemned until they reach the Age of Accountability.

Rom. 5:12 ("Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned&quot,

Psalm 14:2 ("The lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that does good, no not one&quot,

Rom. 3:23 ("For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God&quot,

1 John 1:10 ("If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us&quot,
Rom. 3:10 ("There is none righteous, no not one&quot,

1 John 1:8 ("If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us&quot,

Eccle. 7:20 ("For there is not a just man upon earth, that does good, and sins not&quot,

Prov. 20:9 ("Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin&quot,

These clearly show that no one, regardless of age, is pure and sinless. Without exception, ALL have sinned. That includes Jesus, and thus he was not perfect. Although this clearly contradicts Deut. 24:16 which says, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

And as per usual, you have opened up a whole new can of worms. As one person put it, why does God need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save us from himself? Isn't that a little ridiculous? If God knew we were flawed, why does he yet punish us and need Jesus?

Let me give you a little analogy from a friend of mine, Robert Reames,

Matt. 19:16-18 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mark 10:17-19, "Good master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life. And Jesus said to him, Why call thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor thy father and thy mother...

Luke 18:18-22, "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother..."

This is straight from Jesus! He states that you are NOT allowed to lie, and if you do...you go to Hell! You do NOT inherit eternal life! Never! Not once does he say.."Oh, but you can lie about such and such..." You, JS, are trying to force things into Jesus' mouth here.

And let's not forget what else the Bible states is wrong with lying:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 4:88)

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6)

"Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord; but they who deal truly are His delight." (Prov. 12:22)

You are pressuming to speak for God. Unless you are God, you cannot state what his intentions are. All we have is the Bible, and in the Bible he makes it very clear that regardless of situations, lying is a sin. Not only is it a sin, it's an abomination, a way to darkness, and leads to the devil.

JS, this is saying exactly the same thing here that I said. There is no difference. Both of these texts state that GOD is the one who wrote the Bible, and that those who were writing it down got their information from YHWH. There is no other way to interpret that passage, and thus my point still remains.

did I try to refute it?

No, Jesus just omits the rest of the ten commandments.

Here they are for you:

The Ten Commandments:

first law:

Quote:

I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

In fact, Jesus also requires you to follow every old testament law (including every commandment listed above) without question and so does God:

seeing how I gave you 2 laws... that are the ten commandments.. just Jesus just put em in plain clear... Love God and Love your brother as you would want to be treated.

Quote:

There is no grey area there. You either follow the laws God has set out for you in the OT, or you burn for eternity. In fact, God even said to Moses upon the renewal of the Tablets, "Before the eyes of all your people I will work such marvels as have never been wrought in any nation anywhere on earth, so that this people among whom you live may see how awe-inspiring are the deeds which I, the LORD, will do at your side. BUT YOU, ON YOUR PART, MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS I AM GIVING YOU TODAY." (Exodus 34:10-11)

yeah and? on my part I need to have faith/believe that Jesus Christ died for me and rosed again 3 days later. after I have been born again only then will I want to follow the law.. not because I want to do it on my benefit but on Gods. it isn't my flesh who wants to follow Gods law for the sake of following them for God. but it is the spirit of God who makes me want to follow them and obey them.

Quote:

Leviticus 20:9, "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Couldn't we try like, spanking the kid first? How about that?)

Leviticus 24:16, "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." (Little bit of an ego problem there, god?)

whats this? I don't get what your bringing forth here besides God saying he hates sin. if it really meant that then He would have killed Adam and Eve for eating the apple.

Quote:

In Numbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, God shows us how hospitable he is when he says "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death."

yeah and? it means that anyone who doesn't have authorization shouldn't be there.. because they are not authorized.. many text in the Bible show that only the high priest, when they are doing their sacrifice for sin, should be there but even he must do something to be ok infront of the glory of God. they had a robe covering the whole doorway..

Numbers 5:2-4, "Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell. And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel."

Quote:

(What ever happened to trying to help the sick instead of just abandoning them to the wild? One can only imagine the heartbreak of having to expell your own mother or father, grandfather or favorite aunt and unlc esimply because they are sick, and watching them wander off without help from the world, and all because god says so.)

ceremonially unclean were excluded from the camp where the isrealites lived in tents. Later, no unclean persons were allowed in the temple area, where they could mingle with others. Not only was God present in the tabernacle in a special way but also in the camp. therefore unclean peole were not to be in the camp.

Quote:

Numbers 14:18, "The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (One can only imagine what it would be like to be hauled away for a bank robbery your great great great grandfather did generations ago. ...Wait a tic, wasn't there something about children not being held accountable for their fathers crimes somewhere in the old testament as well? Ah right, here it is: Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Well this is just darn confusing!)

The Israelites find a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. God commands them to kill him by throwing rocks at him. Numbers 15:32-36, "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."

And most of us drive daily on saturdays (and sundays). Poor guy, too bad he wasn't born just a few thousand years later, when people didn't kill somebody because they thought some ancient words in a holy book told them so....we don't believe in a jealous god anymore that demands an entire nation of people to be exterminated and destroyed along with all of their religious symbols and possessions. (Num. 33:50-52)

thanks for taking this off of a site... God forgives sin. the only thing that I can talk about is that it is like Adam and Eve... they sinned we are paying the price for it but we didn't do it.. but because of them we are now born without knowing him..

Quote:

And of course, if your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." (Deut. 13:6-10)

that is another prophet..

Quote:

If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deut. 22:23-24)

basically all this means is that we shouldn't want to be around evil... we should want to seek the good.. but of course we don't because of our fleshly desires...

Quote:

I suppose there are more, but heck, by the time we get these worked into laws, and by the time you, JS, actually get out there and finish up God's work, there may not be enough people to kill to really appease God anymore - and thus we will all die anyway because God will get mad. Sad really. Eh, so be it, right?

you have it all wrong in contexts... though they were ordered to do that... but think about how many times God gave them to repent of there ways and to not sin again... many.. like in exodus with moses and the pharoah....

Okay, one more. That's it I promise.

Quote:

If you don't obey all of the laws that are given in the Old Testament, God shower you with the curses that are given in the next 52 verses. (Deut. 28:16-68) So you better get on with it!

seems to me you don't believe because people now a days don't act like it... and yes I understand there are hypocryts in the church.. but to tell you the truth God isn't really saying kill people for he says that we should love each other as we love ourselves.. God is a loving God.
what these verses mean is that we shouldn't want evil near us if we are seeking God.

Quote:

Ah, but the Bible says that none born are perfect and ALL have sinned. And Jesus was born, unless you dispute this claim (and if you do you are going against God's supposed perfect book).

Jesus is the only one born perfect because He was born of a virgin and not with two parents... He was the only one born without a sinful nature.

Quote:

These clearly show that no one, regardless of age, is pure and sinless. Without exception, ALL have sinned. That includes Jesus, and thus he was not perfect. Although this clearly contradicts Deut. 24:16 which says, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

so who do you think Jesus is?

And as per usual, you have opened up a whole new can of worms. As one person put it, why does God need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save us from himself? Isn't that a little ridiculous? If God knew we were flawed, why does he yet punish us and need Jesus?

well its like saying this: why did your parents want kids? they knew that you wouldn't follow the rules sometimes.. but they concieved you anyways.. why? because they wanted kids..

the trinity: you might say pagan belief....
but Jesus was the Word of God come into flesh John 1:1
He was the lamb of God the Bull(from Genesis) that was sacrificed instead
of the child.

your talking about freewill.. we ultimately have the choice to choose between sin or God.. but unfortunately some of us most of the time choose sin.. so God sent down His only begotten son so he could be the bridge to God... Christianity is God reaching to man while other religions is man reaching to God

Quote:

That's your psychosis acting out and has nothing to do with the truck. It's not its fault for being created a truck; it's your fault for creating it as a truck when what you wanted the whole time was a Cadillac. If you now claim (as so many do) that what you REALLY wanted was for the truck to see how beautiful it could be if only it would CHOOSE to be a Cadillac and that all you ever wanted was for the truck to CHOOSE to be a Cadillac instead of what you created it to be (a truck), then you are more in need of therapy than anything else and should seek serious help, even if you are (and especially if you are) claiming to be God.

then your saying this.... a mother had sex with someone with aids.. now the mother has aids. and then the mother conceives a child.. it wasn't the childs fault but the child now has aids...

Indeed. God is now punishing us, even though he knows everything that is going to happen, saw it happen before creation as he is omnipotent, he still created us, and then saw everything he already knew was going to happen, play out before him. And then, condemns us for doing exactly what he could have prevented early on. Interesting. That's some encouragement.

discipline is good for us.. God does discipline us.. but he doesn't act out how we deserve which is really death at the spot... instead he came down and paid my depth..

Quote:

Again this contradicts Deut. 24:16.

in what way?

By stating this you are going against God's perfect word, which you yet believe in! Remember, as I already have shown, the Bible is very clear about lying!

by this you don't know the Bible, infact you probally don't know most of the prophecies told in daniel.. yet you get this stuff off of a anti christian site... man most of this stuff reminds me of a muslim forum I was on... a couple of months ago. hey no biggy...

Quote:

Do not bear false witness

lieing about your brother is bad.. but lieing to save a life is good.. again joshua 2

Quote:

You are pressuming to speak for God. Unless you are God, you cannot state what his intentions are. All we have is the Bible, and in the Bible he makes it very clear that regardless of situations, lying is a sin. Not only is it a sin, it's an abomination, a way to darkness, and leads to the devil.

well no not really lieing is good in some situations but lieing for the sake of lieing is bad.. and does deserve punishment... like anger.. there is a good anger and there is a bad anger... the bad anger is the anger that deserves punishment.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

JS, this is saying exactly the same thing here that I said. There is no difference. Both of these texts state that GOD is the one who wrote the Bible, and that those who were writing it down got their information from YHWH. There is no other way to interpret that passage, and thus my point still remains.

did I try to refute it?

Err... some might have that suspicion, but it can pass away, now that we've established we're on the same wavelength

JesusSaves wrote:

No, Jesus just omits the rest of the ten commandments.

Here they are for you:

The Ten Commandments:

first law:

Quote:

I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

I didn't much understand what you did there... you combined 10 laws into 2... Jesus does not do that, as he never said the commandments are to be condensed up like that...

Indeed, taking it from this point of view, the possible interpretation is that you can lie when you "so good"... but than again, how do you know you do good?

Taking the example of the little girl and the rapist... what if the father comes, the rapist kills him, and then rapes the girl ? If the girl hadn't lied, she would have gotten raped, her father would still be alive, so a better option, I must say...

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

In fact, Jesus also requires you to follow every old testament law (including every commandment listed above) without question and so does God:

seeing how I gave you 2 laws... that are the ten commandments.. just Jesus just put em in plain clear... Love God and Love your brother as you would want to be treated.

Jesus just put them into a nicer form... that don't mean the 10 laws don't apply individually by themselves.

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

There is no grey area there. You either follow the laws God has set out for you in the OT, or you burn for eternity. In fact, God even said to Moses upon the renewal of the Tablets, "Before the eyes of all your people I will work such marvels as have never been wrought in any nation anywhere on earth, so that this people among whom you live may see how awe-inspiring are the deeds which I, the LORD, will do at your side. BUT YOU, ON YOUR PART, MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS I AM GIVING YOU TODAY." (Exodus 34:10-11)

yeah and? on my part I need to have faith/believe that Jesus Christ died for me and rosed again 3 days later. after I have been born again only then will I want to follow the law.. not because I want to do it on my benefit but on Gods. it isn't my flesh who wants to follow Gods law for the sake of following them for God. but it is the spirit of God who makes me want to follow them and obey them.

So... you have to follow the law only after you die? That's a very interesting one... haven't heard of it before...

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

Leviticus 20:9, "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Couldn't we try like, spanking the kid first? How about that?)

Leviticus 24:16, "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." (Little bit of an ego problem there, god?)

whats this? I don't get what your bringing forth here besides God saying he hates sin. if it really meant that then He would have killed Adam and Eve for eating the apple.

No, screwball... he only wants to show you that in our society, the vast majority of godly laws are so outdated that it would be impossible to follow them.

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

In Numbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, God shows us how hospitable he is when he says "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death."

yeah and? it means that anyone who doesn't have authorization shouldn't be there.. because they are not authorized.. many text in the Bible show that only the high priest, when they are doing their sacrifice for sin, should be there but even he must do something to be ok infront of the glory of God. they had a robe covering the whole doorway..

And if an ancient thracian (who had no writing, and did not understand the concept of writing) would have come there, he would not have understood what everyone told him ("Don't go there&quot, and he wouldn't have understood what's written (presuming there were warning signs). So... where's his mistake exactly for being curious to see what is all the rackin` about ? God didn't give the 10 commandments OR ANY of his laws to the Thracians (which happen to be far older than the Jews), so how could they possibly know of God's laws?

Also, doesn't the fact that God orders murder for an apparently harmless thing bother you? If God is so all-mighty, why does he need silence and privacy in the temple? Why does he need sacrifices anyway?

JesusSaves wrote:

Numbers 5:2-4, "Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell. And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel."

Quote:

(What ever happened to trying to help the sick instead of just abandoning them to the wild? One can only imagine the heartbreak of having to expell your own mother or father, grandfather or favorite aunt and unlc esimply because they are sick, and watching them wander off without help from the world, and all because god says so.)

ceremonially unclean were excluded from the camp where the isrealites lived in tents. Later, no unclean persons were allowed in the temple area, where they could mingle with others. Not only was God present in the tabernacle in a special way but also in the camp. therefore unclean peole were not to be in the camp.

WHY ? How can you tell "clean" from "unclean" ? If we are to speak of disease only, AIDS is not visible, Anthrax is not visible (unless it's already too late for the whole community), etc. Who decided who is clean and unclean?

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

Numbers 14:18, "The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (One can only imagine what it would be like to be hauled away for a bank robbery your great great great grandfather did generations ago. ...Wait a tic, wasn't there something about children not being held accountable for their fathers crimes somewhere in the old testament as well? Ah right, here it is: Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Well this is just darn confusing!)

The Israelites find a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. God commands them to kill him by throwing rocks at him. Numbers 15:32-36, "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."

And most of us drive daily on saturdays (and sundays). Poor guy, too bad he wasn't born just a few thousand years later, when people didn't kill somebody because they thought some ancient words in a holy book told them so....we don't believe in a jealous god anymore that demands an entire nation of people to be exterminated and destroyed along with all of their religious symbols and possessions. (Num. 33:50-52)

thanks for taking this off of a site... God forgives sin. the only thing that I can talk about is that it is like Adam and Eve... they sinned we are paying the price for it but we didn't do it.. but because of them we are now born without knowing him..

Why didn't Adam and Eve tell us about Him? Caine also knew God... and many many others...

and just why exactly am I supposed to bear the sin of Adam or Eve? Was I there to be able to stop them? No... then why's my fault the fact that Eve eat a shitty apple? I don't get it.

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

And of course, if your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." (Deut. 13:6-10)

that is another prophet..

It's the Deuteronomy, screwball... the word of God...

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deut. 22:23-24)

basically all this means is that we shouldn't want to be around evil... we should want to seek the good.. but of course we don't because of our fleshly desires...

Excuse me... what connection does what YOU said with what Rook said? I fail to see even the smallest one...

What if the woman's got a cold, or she lost her voice? Ad regardless of how loud she screams, within her possibilities, she cannot be heard... What's her fault there exactly ... ?

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

I suppose there are more, but heck, by the time we get these worked into laws, and by the time you, JS, actually get out there and finish up God's work, there may not be enough people to kill to really appease God anymore - and thus we will all die anyway because God will get mad. Sad really. Eh, so be it, right?

you have it all wrong in contexts... though they were ordered to do that... but think about how many times God gave them to repent of there ways and to not sin again... many.. like in exodus with moses and the pharoah....

So what? even a serial killer can be a devout familist or philantropist... he's still a serial killer !

JesusSaves wrote:

Okay, one more. That's it I promise.

Quote:

If you don't obey all of the laws that are given in the Old Testament, God shower you with the curses that are given in the next 52 verses. (Deut. 28:16-68) So you better get on with it!

seems to me you don't believe because people now a days don't act like it... and yes I understand there are hypocryts in the church.. but to tell you the truth God isn't really saying kill people for he says that we should love each other as we love ourselves.. God is a loving God.
what these verses mean is that we shouldn't want evil near us if we are seeking God.

Well, actually, God asks us to kill people through His word in the Bible ! If you still contest that after all the biblical passages Rook has shown, it means you don't trust the word of the Bible, thus making you a non-Christian!

Man, understand this: We gave you the facts... seek the passages, I guarantee they are all there... I searched them all manually... and those found at evilbible.com... They're IN THE BIBLE ! Now if you still don't believe that, even after you seek them and READ them... then you're in need of serious medication...

And no, God is not a loving God... except for the Jews. Are you a Jew? If yes, congratulations, your God loves you. I'm nowhere near of being Jewish, so why should I care about the Jewish God?

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

Ah, but the Bible says that none born are perfect and ALL have sinned. And Jesus was born, unless you dispute this claim (and if you do you are going against God's supposed perfect book).

Jesus is the only one born perfect because He was born of a virgin and not with two parents... He was the only one born without a sinful nature.

True... he was born only half-sinful...

Come on, man ! You don't expect anyone to believe the virgin thing, do you? Look at the other post with the "Hero similarity scale"... I find it quite relevant...

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

These clearly show that no one, regardless of age, is pure and sinless. Without exception, ALL have sinned. That includes Jesus, and thus he was not perfect. Although this clearly contradicts Deut. 24:16 which says, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

so who do you think Jesus is?

I assure you you don't wanna know that...

JesusSaves wrote:

And as per usual, you have opened up a whole new can of worms. As one person put it, why does God need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save us from himself? Isn't that a little ridiculous? If God knew we were flawed, why does he yet punish us and need Jesus?

well its like saying this: why did your parents want kids? they knew that you wouldn't follow the rules sometimes.. but they concieved you anyways.. why? because they wanted kids..

But MY parent's certainly don't throw me into eternal damnation if I break any little one of their rules (which are impossible NOT to be broken) and fail to mention that to them...

JesusSaves wrote:

the trinity: you might say pagan belief....
but Jesus was the Word of God come into flesh John 1:1
He was the lamb of God the Bull(from Genesis) that was sacrificed instead
of the child.

Explain this, please... it makes little sense...

JesusSaves wrote:

your talking about freewill.. we ultimately have the choice to choose between sin or God.. but unfortunately some of us most of the time choose sin.. so God sent down His only begotten son so he could be the bridge to God... Christianity is God reaching to man while other religions is man reaching to God

We don't have the right to choose anything... If you wait a little longer, I'm completeing my work on the anti-free-will document which will just prove you how much free will we have...

Sorry, I don't want to present an argument to this now, but I promise to get back on this one...

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

That's your psychosis acting out and has nothing to do with the truck. It's not its fault for being created a truck; it's your fault for creating it as a truck when what you wanted the whole time was a Cadillac. If you now claim (as so many do) that what you REALLY wanted was for the truck to see how beautiful it could be if only it would CHOOSE to be a Cadillac and that all you ever wanted was for the truck to CHOOSE to be a Cadillac instead of what you created it to be (a truck), then you are more in need of therapy than anything else and should seek serious help, even if you are (and especially if you are) claiming to be God.

then your saying this.... a mother had sex with someone with aids.. now the mother has aids. and then the mother conceives a child.. it wasn't the childs fault but the child now has aids...

HALLELUJAH ! He got the whole point, finally ! That sure took a while... about 2000 years...

JesusSaves wrote:

Indeed. God is now punishing us, even though he knows everything that is going to happen, saw it happen before creation as he is omnipotent, he still created us, and then saw everything he already knew was going to happen, play out before him. And then, condemns us for doing exactly what he could have prevented early on. Interesting. That's some encouragement.

discipline is good for us.. God does discipline us.. but he doesn't act out how we deserve which is really death at the spot... instead he came down and paid my depth..

You're not making sense here either...

JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:

Again this contradicts Deut. 24:16.

in what way?

Rook will answer that... I think he's a better logical debater than I

JesusSaves wrote:

By stating this you are going against God's perfect word, which you yet believe in! Remember, as I already have shown, the Bible is very clear about lying!

by this you don't know the Bible, infact you probally don't know most of the prophecies told in daniel.. yet you get this stuff off of a anti christian site... man most of this stuff reminds me of a muslim forum I was on... a couple of months ago. hey no biggy...

Rook has sustained his point of view with PASSAGES FROM THE FREAKIN` BIBLE... WOULD YOU CARE TO DO THE SAME PLEASE ... ???????????????????????????

JesusSaves wrote:

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Do not bear false witness

lieing about your brother is bad.. but lieing to save a life is good.. again joshua 2

And how do you know that saving one life will njot kill thousands of others ?

JesusSaves wrote:

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You are pressuming to speak for God. Unless you are God, you cannot state what his intentions are. All we have is the Bible, and in the Bible he makes it very clear that regardless of situations, lying is a sin. Not only is it a sin, it's an abomination, a way to darkness, and leads to the devil.

well no not really lieing is good in some situations but lieing for the sake of lieing is bad.. and does deserve punishment... like anger.. there is a good anger and there is a bad anger... the bad anger is the anger that deserves punishment.

JS, this is saying exactly the same thing here that I said. There is no difference. Both of these texts state that GOD is the one who wrote the Bible, and that those who were writing it down got their information from YHWH. There is no other way to interpret that passage, and thus my point still remains.

did I try to refute it?

Err... some might have that suspicion, but it can pass away, now that we've established we're on the same wavelength

JesusSaves wrote:

No, Jesus just omits the rest of the ten commandments.

Here they are for you:

The Ten Commandments:

first law:

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I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

I didn't much understand what you did there... you combined 10 laws into 2... Jesus does not do that, as he never said the commandments are to be condensed up like that...

Indeed, taking it from this point of view, the possible interpretation is that you can lie when you "so good"... but than again, how do you know you do good?

Taking the example of the little girl and the rapist... what if the father comes, the rapist kills him, and then rapes the girl ? If the girl hadn't lied, she would have gotten raped, her father would still be alive, so a better option, I must say...

JesusSaves wrote:

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In fact, Jesus also requires you to follow every old testament law (including every commandment listed above) without question and so does God:

seeing how I gave you 2 laws... that are the ten commandments.. just Jesus just put em in plain clear... Love God and Love your brother as you would want to be treated.

Jesus just put them into a nicer form... that don't mean the 10 laws don't apply individually by themselves.

JesusSaves wrote:

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There is no grey area there. You either follow the laws God has set out for you in the OT, or you burn for eternity. In fact, God even said to Moses upon the renewal of the Tablets, "Before the eyes of all your people I will work such marvels as have never been wrought in any nation anywhere on earth, so that this people among whom you live may see how awe-inspiring are the deeds which I, the LORD, will do at your side. BUT YOU, ON YOUR PART, MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS I AM GIVING YOU TODAY." (Exodus 34:10-11)

yeah and? on my part I need to have faith/believe that Jesus Christ died for me and rosed again 3 days later. after I have been born again only then will I want to follow the law.. not because I want to do it on my benefit but on Gods. it isn't my flesh who wants to follow Gods law for the sake of following them for God. but it is the spirit of God who makes me want to follow them and obey them.

So... you have to follow the law only after you die? That's a very interesting one... haven't heard of it before...

JesusSaves wrote:

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Leviticus 20:9, "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." (Couldn't we try like, spanking the kid first? How about that?)

Leviticus 24:16, "And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." (Little bit of an ego problem there, god?)

whats this? I don't get what your bringing forth here besides God saying he hates sin. if it really meant that then He would have killed Adam and Eve for eating the apple.

No, screwball... he only wants to show you that in our society, the vast majority of godly laws are so outdated that it would be impossible to follow them.

JesusSaves wrote:

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In Numbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, God shows us how hospitable he is when he says "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death."

yeah and? it means that anyone who doesn't have authorization shouldn't be there.. because they are not authorized.. many text in the Bible show that only the high priest, when they are doing their sacrifice for sin, should be there but even he must do something to be ok infront of the glory of God. they had a robe covering the whole doorway..

And if an ancient thracian (who had no writing, and did not understand the concept of writing) would have come there, he would not have understood what everyone told him ("Don't go there&quot, and he wouldn't have understood what's written (presuming there were warning signs). So... where's his mistake exactly for being curious to see what is all the rackin` about ? God didn't give the 10 commandments OR ANY of his laws to the Thracians (which happen to be far older than the Jews), so how could they possibly know of God's laws?

Also, doesn't the fact that God orders murder for an apparently harmless thing bother you? If God is so all-mighty, why does he need silence and privacy in the temple? Why does he need sacrifices anyway?

JesusSaves wrote:

Numbers 5:2-4, "Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell. And the children of Israel did so, and put them out without the camp: as the LORD spake unto Moses, so did the children of Israel."

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(What ever happened to trying to help the sick instead of just abandoning them to the wild? One can only imagine the heartbreak of having to expell your own mother or father, grandfather or favorite aunt and unlc esimply because they are sick, and watching them wander off without help from the world, and all because god says so.)

ceremonially unclean were excluded from the camp where the isrealites lived in tents. Later, no unclean persons were allowed in the temple area, where they could mingle with others. Not only was God present in the tabernacle in a special way but also in the camp. therefore unclean peole were not to be in the camp.

WHY ? How can you tell "clean" from "unclean" ? If we are to speak of disease only, AIDS is not visible, Anthrax is not visible (unless it's already too late for the whole community), etc. Who decided who is clean and unclean?

JesusSaves wrote:

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Numbers 14:18, "The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (One can only imagine what it would be like to be hauled away for a bank robbery your great great great grandfather did generations ago. ...Wait a tic, wasn't there something about children not being held accountable for their fathers crimes somewhere in the old testament as well? Ah right, here it is: Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Well this is just darn confusing!)

The Israelites find a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. God commands them to kill him by throwing rocks at him. Numbers 15:32-36, "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."

And most of us drive daily on saturdays (and sundays). Poor guy, too bad he wasn't born just a few thousand years later, when people didn't kill somebody because they thought some ancient words in a holy book told them so....we don't believe in a jealous god anymore that demands an entire nation of people to be exterminated and destroyed along with all of their religious symbols and possessions. (Num. 33:50-52)

thanks for taking this off of a site... God forgives sin. the only thing that I can talk about is that it is like Adam and Eve... they sinned we are paying the price for it but we didn't do it.. but because of them we are now born without knowing him..

Why didn't Adam and Eve tell us about Him? Caine also knew God... and many many others...

and just why exactly am I supposed to bear the sin of Adam or Eve? Was I there to be able to stop them? No... then why's my fault the fact that Eve eat a shitty apple? I don't get it.

JesusSaves wrote:

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And of course, if your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." (Deut. 13:6-10)

that is another prophet..

It's the Deuteronomy, screwball... the word of God...

JesusSaves wrote:

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If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deut. 22:23-24)

basically all this means is that we shouldn't want to be around evil... we should want to seek the good.. but of course we don't because of our fleshly desires...

Excuse me... what connection does what YOU said with what Rook said? I fail to see even the smallest one...

What if the woman's got a cold, or she lost her voice? Ad regardless of how loud she screams, within her possibilities, she cannot be heard... What's her fault there exactly ... ?

JesusSaves wrote:

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I suppose there are more, but heck, by the time we get these worked into laws, and by the time you, JS, actually get out there and finish up God's work, there may not be enough people to kill to really appease God anymore - and thus we will all die anyway because God will get mad. Sad really. Eh, so be it, right?

you have it all wrong in contexts... though they were ordered to do that... but think about how many times God gave them to repent of there ways and to not sin again... many.. like in exodus with moses and the pharoah....

So what? even a serial killer can be a devout familist or philantropist... he's still a serial killer !

JesusSaves wrote:

Okay, one more. That's it I promise.

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If you don't obey all of the laws that are given in the Old Testament, God shower you with the curses that are given in the next 52 verses. (Deut. 28:16-68) So you better get on with it!

seems to me you don't believe because people now a days don't act like it... and yes I understand there are hypocryts in the church.. but to tell you the truth God isn't really saying kill people for he says that we should love each other as we love ourselves.. God is a loving God.
what these verses mean is that we shouldn't want evil near us if we are seeking God.

Well, actually, God asks us to kill people through His word in the Bible ! If you still contest that after all the biblical passages Rook has shown, it means you don't trust the word of the Bible, thus making you a non-Christian!

Man, understand this: We gave you the facts... seek the passages, I guarantee they are all there... I searched them all manually... and those found at evilbible.com... They're IN THE BIBLE ! Now if you still don't believe that, even after you seek them and READ them... then you're in need of serious medication...

And no, God is not a loving God... except for the Jews. Are you a Jew? If yes, congratulations, your God loves you. I'm nowhere near of being Jewish, so why should I care about the Jewish God?

JesusSaves wrote:

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Ah, but the Bible says that none born are perfect and ALL have sinned. And Jesus was born, unless you dispute this claim (and if you do you are going against God's supposed perfect book).

Jesus is the only one born perfect because He was born of a virgin and not with two parents... He was the only one born without a sinful nature.

True... he was born only half-sinful...

Come on, man ! You don't expect anyone to believe the virgin thing, do you? Look at the other post with the "Hero similarity scale"... I find it quite relevant...

JesusSaves wrote:

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These clearly show that no one, regardless of age, is pure and sinless. Without exception, ALL have sinned. That includes Jesus, and thus he was not perfect. Although this clearly contradicts Deut. 24:16 which says, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

so who do you think Jesus is?

I assure you you don't wanna know that...

JesusSaves wrote:

And as per usual, you have opened up a whole new can of worms. As one person put it, why does God need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save us from himself? Isn't that a little ridiculous? If God knew we were flawed, why does he yet punish us and need Jesus?

well its like saying this: why did your parents want kids? they knew that you wouldn't follow the rules sometimes.. but they concieved you anyways.. why? because they wanted kids..

But MY parent's certainly don't throw me into eternal damnation if I break any little one of their rules (which are impossible NOT to be broken) and fail to mention that to them...

JesusSaves wrote:

the trinity: you might say pagan belief....
but Jesus was the Word of God come into flesh John 1:1
He was the lamb of God the Bull(from Genesis) that was sacrificed instead
of the child.

Explain this, please... it makes little sense...

JesusSaves wrote:

your talking about freewill.. we ultimately have the choice to choose between sin or God.. but unfortunately some of us most of the time choose sin.. so God sent down His only begotten son so he could be the bridge to God... Christianity is God reaching to man while other religions is man reaching to God

We don't have the right to choose anything... If you wait a little longer, I'm completeing my work on the anti-free-will document which will just prove you how much free will we have...

Sorry, I don't want to present an argument to this now, but I promise to get back on this one...

JesusSaves wrote:

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That's your psychosis acting out and has nothing to do with the truck. It's not its fault for being created a truck; it's your fault for creating it as a truck when what you wanted the whole time was a Cadillac. If you now claim (as so many do) that what you REALLY wanted was for the truck to see how beautiful it could be if only it would CHOOSE to be a Cadillac and that all you ever wanted was for the truck to CHOOSE to be a Cadillac instead of what you created it to be (a truck), then you are more in need of therapy than anything else and should seek serious help, even if you are (and especially if you are) claiming to be God.

then your saying this.... a mother had sex with someone with aids.. now the mother has aids. and then the mother conceives a child.. it wasn't the childs fault but the child now has aids...

HALLELUJAH ! He got the whole point, finally ! That sure took a while... about 2000 years...

JesusSaves wrote:

Indeed. God is now punishing us, even though he knows everything that is going to happen, saw it happen before creation as he is omnipotent, he still created us, and then saw everything he already knew was going to happen, play out before him. And then, condemns us for doing exactly what he could have prevented early on. Interesting. That's some encouragement.

discipline is good for us.. God does discipline us.. but he doesn't act out how we deserve which is really death at the spot... instead he came down and paid my depth..

You're not making sense here either...

JesusSaves wrote:

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Again this contradicts Deut. 24:16.

in what way?

Rook will answer that... I think he's a better logical debater than I

JesusSaves wrote:

By stating this you are going against God's perfect word, which you yet believe in! Remember, as I already have shown, the Bible is very clear about lying!

by this you don't know the Bible, infact you probally don't know most of the prophecies told in daniel.. yet you get this stuff off of a anti christian site... man most of this stuff reminds me of a muslim forum I was on... a couple of months ago. hey no biggy...

Rook has sustained his point of view with PASSAGES FROM THE FREAKIN` BIBLE... WOULD YOU CARE TO DO THE SAME PLEASE ... ???????????????????????????

JesusSaves wrote:

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Do not bear false witness

lieing about your brother is bad.. but lieing to save a life is good.. again joshua 2

And how do you know that saving one life will njot kill thousands of others ?

JesusSaves wrote:

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You are pressuming to speak for God. Unless you are God, you cannot state what his intentions are. All we have is the Bible, and in the Bible he makes it very clear that regardless of situations, lying is a sin. Not only is it a sin, it's an abomination, a way to darkness, and leads to the devil.

well no not really lieing is good in some situations but lieing for the sake of lieing is bad.. and does deserve punishment... like anger.. there is a good anger and there is a bad anger... the bad anger is the anger that deserves punishment.

:D

And who decides when you're lying "for the sake of lying" or not?

I think really all this can be summed up.. its not about the good or bad deed you did... but its about the righious act.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

What it coems down to is that JS has no way to refute this point because he is not an open-minded individual, or ratgher he does not have the intellectual honesty to admit he is wrong. Instead of refuting any claims, he quoted it all and gave a non-sequitor. Good job, screw ball.

Root why are you so mean? screw ball? were you once searching for God and couldn't find him through the church? I know I am not a elder of my faith I am yet still a baby.

and Born-again means that you are truely saved... Born-Agian means that you concieve a new spirit from God which makes you want to do the right thing not because of what you get but because of what it brings to God.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Root why are you so mean? screw ball? were you once searching for God and couldn't find him through the church? I know I am not a elder of my faith I am yet still a baby.

Well, this comes to show that JS hasn't read my post at all... but it doesn't matter much.

I have to say that I have never been able to find "God" through the church, even though I tried... I just gave up after some years and submitted to logic.

JesusSaves wrote:

and Born-again means that you are truely saved... Born-Agian means that you concieve a new spirit from God which makes you want to do the right thing not because of what you get but because of what it brings to God.

Oh, so as long as you aren't Born-Again you don't have to follow the laws? Interesting... Hey Rook, you hear that? We're saved ! (ptooie)

Rooks level of tolerance for closed mindedness and stupidity is very low.

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were you once searching for God and couldn't find him through the church?

He was once sure God exists, just like you. He was studying to be a priest, and through several discussions with friends, as an open minded individual he was forced to admit he was being foolish in thinking the Christian God exists.

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I know I am not a elder of my faith I am yet still a baby.

Rook could teach the bible to the guy who taught you. I know very few people who know it better than him, he never stopped studying it.

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and Born-again means that you are truely saved... Born-Agian

No it doesn't. First off, look how arrogant this is, you and your sect are the only ones saved? Some loving god, to not let everyone on Earth be certain they need to be born again in order to truly be saved. You need to recognize that every sect believe their way is the right way. We generally look at "born again" as a way to show just how little a person has thought out their belief, and how much bullshit they're likely to fall for.

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means that you concieve a new spirit from God which makes you want to do the right thing not because of what you get but because of what it brings to God.

Ironic... therefore Born again is exactly the opposite of what I am... I do the "right things" because I want to, and because of the happiness it brings me to do the right things.

Well, this comes to show that JS hasn't read my post at all... but it doesn't matter much.

I have to say that I have never been able to find "God" through the church, even though I tried... I just gave up after some years and submitted to logic.

well I found God through a computer.. in a nutshell... he doesn't always use the church to help people find God... meaning that isn't the only way to being able to find him... he sometimes uses the things people love to do.

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Oh, so as long as you aren't Born-Again you don't have to follow the laws? Interesting... Hey Rook, you hear that? We're saved ! (ptooie

I didn't say that... reread I said truely born-again christians would want to do follow the law not for their own benefit or for self-reasoning.. but to bring honor to God and for the other people.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Rooks level of tolerance for closed mindedness and stupidity is very low.

stupidity? are you saying rook knows all things? tell me if is? does he know how much sand there is on the earth?

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He was once sure God exists, just like you. He was studying to be a priest, and through several discussions with friends, as an open minded individual he was forced to admit he was being foolish in thinking the Christian God exists.

but he wasn't born-again... foolish into thinking that God exist? non-sense. I think its foolish to believe that God doesn't exist.

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Rook could teach the bible to the guy who taught you. I know very few people who know it better than him, he never stopped studying it.

see that is the problem- no one really taught me the Bible.. I kind of read it when I do which is a lot.

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No it doesn't. First off, look how arrogant this is, you and your sect are the only ones saved? Some loving god, to not let everyone on Earth be certain they need to be born again in order to truly be saved. You need to recognize that every sect believe their way is the right way. We generally look at "born again" as a way to show just how little a person has thought out their belief, and how much bullshit they're likely to fall for.

all christians will be saved if they are truely born-agian believers.. it isn't the Baptism that causes one to be saved but it is the person who suddenly--- lets see choosing the right words ---knows he is nothing and needs a savior and ask Jesus into his heart thus you concieve a new spirit meaning born-again

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Ironic... therefore Born again is exactly the opposite of what I am... I do the "right things" because I want to, and because of the happiness it brings me to do the right things.

well yeah I just kind of said it... I wonder who gave you those emotions inside?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Rooks level of tolerance for closed mindedness and stupidity is very low.

stupidity? are you saying rook knows all things? tell me if is? does he know how much sand there is on the earth?

There's a huge difference between stupidity and ignorance. You're getting the two confused.

JesusSaves wrote:

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He was once sure God exists, just like you. He was studying to be a priest, and through several discussions with friends, as an open minded individual he was forced to admit he was being foolish in thinking the Christian God exists.

but he wasn't born-again... foolish into thinking that God exist? non-sense. I think its foolish to believe that God doesn't exist.

Born again has nothing to do with it, he was certain in a god just as you are, and the more he dug into the bible and his religion, the more it started to fall apart infront of his eyes.

I don't want to speak for Rook though, but you're again way off base.

JesusSaves wrote:

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Rook could teach the bible to the guy who taught you. I know very few people who know it better than him, he never stopped studying it.

see that is the problem- no one really taught me the Bible.. I kind of read it when I do which is a lot.

Point?

JesusSaves wrote:

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No it doesn't. First off, look how arrogant this is, you and your sect are the only ones saved? Some loving god, to not let everyone on Earth be certain they need to be born again in order to truly be saved. You need to recognize that every sect believe their way is the right way. We generally look at "born again" as a way to show just how little a person has thought out their belief, and how much bullshit they're likely to fall for.

all christians will be saved if they are truely born-agian believers.. it isn't the Baptism that causes one to be saved but it is the person who suddenly--- lets see choosing the right words ---knows he is nothing and needs a savior and ask Jesus into his heart thus you concieve a new spirit meaning born-again

It's pretty sad that your faith clings to those who think nothing of themselves. Do yourself a favor and do a brief study of how cults work.

JesusSaves wrote:

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Ironic... therefore Born again is exactly the opposite of what I am... I do the "right things" because I want to, and because of the happiness it brings me to do the right things.

well yeah I just kind of said it... I wonder who gave you those emotions inside?

So.. another baseless assertion eh? Please, show me the proof you have that our emotions were inserted into us by some super natural force.

Verse 13Shallow heart- people who get hype but then when things happen. they lose the fire. but we need to abide in Jesus they follow the crowd doing something else for atleast a second but not spending time in the word.

verse 14Crowded heart- busy people. we need to make time for Jesus. girlfriend- takes up time that we don't spend time in the Word. we spend our whole life persueing relationships. ect. and stop listening to Jesus.

verse 15open heart- whatever it takes your all for God.

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Point?

if you read what he said... my response goes hand to hand..

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It's pretty sad that your faith clings to those who think nothing of themselves. Do yourself a favor and do a brief study of how cults work.

how is it that we think nothing of ourselves? according to Jesus I am told to bear witness to Him.

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So.. another baseless assertion eh? Please, show me the proof you have that our emotions were inserted into us by some super natural force.

well how did the first human know anything about which was wrong and which is right? by emotions, or by knowledge?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Verse 13Shallow heart- people who get hype but then when things happen. they lose the fire. but we need to abide in Jesus they follow the crowd doing something else for atleast a second but not spending time in the word.

verse 14Crowded heart- busy people. we need to make time for Jesus. girlfriend- takes up time that we don't spend time in the Word. we spend our whole life persueing relationships. ect. and stop listening to Jesus.

verse 15open heart- whatever it takes your all for God.

I'm not going to speak for rook. By the way, his name is *Rook*, not Root.

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Point?

JesusSaves wrote:

if you read what he said... my response goes hand to hand..

I'm pretty sure his point was he is certain Rook knows more about the bible than any authority figure in your faith that you know personally.

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It's pretty sad that your faith clings to those who think nothing of themselves. Do yourself a favor and do a brief study of how cults work.

JesusSaves wrote:

how is it that we think nothing of ourselves? according to Jesus I am told to bear witness to Him.

Uh, you just said yourself you have to KNOW YOU ARE NOTHING TO BE SAVED BY JESUS. Here, let me quote it for you because apparently you cannot keep a consistant argument.

JesusSaves wrote:

it isn't the Baptism that causes one to be saved but it is the person who suddenly--- lets see choosing the right words ---knows he is nothing

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So.. another baseless assertion eh? Please, show me the proof you have that our emotions were inserted into us by some super natural force.

JesusSaves wrote:

well how did the first human know anything about which was wrong and which is right? by emotions, or by knowledge?

By emotions, now like I asked above, prove to me that these emotions were inserted into us by a super natural force.

I'm not going to speak for rook. By the way, his name is *Rook*, not Root.

I want you to do it to... not just rook

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I'm pretty sure his point was he is certain Rook knows more about the bible than any authority figure in your faith that you know personally.

I am sure he doesn't...

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Uh, you just said yourself you have to KNOW YOU ARE NOTHING TO BE SAVED BY JESUS. Here, let me quote it for you because apparently you cannot keep a consistant argument.

yeah I have to become like a child... be born again--- know that I need someone else to help me get to God.. and I am told to bear witness to him the one who saved me.

By emotions, now like I asked above, prove to me that these emotions were inserted into us by a super natural force.

where did the emotions spark from?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Rooks level of tolerance for closed mindedness and stupidity is very low.

stupidity? are you saying rook knows all things? tell me if is? does he know how much sand there is on the earth?

No I was inferring that you were acting stupid, just like you are now when you ask these stupid questions that have nothing to do with what we were talking about.

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I think its foolish to believe that God doesn't exist.

And yet you can't prove it. How ironic... sounds kinda stupid.

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all christians will be saved if they are truely born-agian believers.. it isn't the Baptism that causes one to be saved but it is the person who suddenly--- lets see choosing the right words ---knows he is nothing and needs a savior and ask Jesus into his heart thus you concieve a new spirit meaning born-again

Yeah, we know what fucking born again means. I've been born again 3 times. I was acting dumb at the time, and not facing reality. I was lying to myself to make me feel better, which is why I know exactly what you're doing right now. Check yourself, recognize.

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well yeah I just kind of said it... I wonder who gave you those emotions inside?

I'm a F-A-N-A-T-I-C, Fanatic
I rep Christ till I D-I-E, Fanatic
I'm not extreme, I'm redeemed with faith
To serve a God whose extremely great
in other words
I'm a Fanatic
The world's trying to tidy up, exfoliate there skin
but only Christ can come and exfoliate there sin
And they fate look grim, If they don't take him
As the high priest he is to mediate there sin
The world's got to many Gods, man we choose the one
From hebrews, he rules, he bruised his son
He moves the sun
So if we prayin and our schools call us fools
Cuz our God's too true to shun
Channels two in one
Man it looks insane
TV make a lot Christians seem dramatically strange
Though we may be looked upon as one and same
We will not turn in shame, we proclaim the name
Christ Jesus, believe us, you ain't gotta recieve us
but we gon' follow our God wherever the bible lead us
And you can call us dramatic, fanatic, emphatic
But hate while you at it, take a look at our mathematics

[Chorus]

[Verse Two]
What can I do to make it simple, make it plain
Christ came, emptied himself and let out sin hang him
You couldn't blame him for any sin
While they singing many men
The crucifixion was pretty grim
But when we state the fact that God resurrects
We get funny looks from a world that doesn't get
We are not David Koresh or Krishna
Or the people on TV who glorifying their bishop
From Edwards to Piper, MacAurther to Spurgeon
From Dallas to France, From Cali to Berlin
As Christians all over who getting the word in
We ain't crazy we just understand the truth and we burdened
The world sees us as evangelical Christians
As narrow-minded fanatics with a mythical mission
Labeled extremists for sharing out faith
But thats cool, we can carry the weight of persecution
Cuz earth is losing
And if we yelling the truth
We honored to be the people that our God is using
So keep it moving
Cuz if we yelling the truth
We honored to be the people that our God is using

[Chorus]

[Verse Three]
They thought Jesus was out of his mind
they laughed and mocked him
Called him a cult leader and they tried to stop him
Pharisees said Christ got his power from Satan
Hatin', on the very one that came to save 'em
Even after he rose, man the world ain't changed
They still rejecting the name, still look at us strange
Still tell us without shame that our faith's insane
and, "it don't take all that to be a Christian man"
And its hard when you tryin to reach your family and stuff
They say man, "you too spiritual, you doing to much"
So we show them the love of Christ and live in the light
So they can glorify our God when they look at our life
And we win for sharing the truth and hearts get changed
We win if we're rejected because of his name
We win if seeds get planted and watered and grow
But even if we lost, we still be Fanatical though

you were once born-again.. I find that hard to believe. I guess you weren't a true born agian believer. it took a while for me to change not like it happened all at once... my taste in music changed.. I now listen to JUST christian music- all the time-- I dislike it when people cuss. all I want to do is read the Bible. I don't think will power can do that.. I was once caught dead in my sin asking people if God will still forgive me if I was the same.. but instead God did forgive me.. its my changed life that I now see..

many of you ask for proof... what proof do you want?

Matthew 12:39
He answered, " A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Luke 11:30
For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation.

many of you have said that God as omniscience power _ which He does--. but you said you don't believe because He know everything he created you... many say he created you sinful- actually he created you good--
now your saying God doesn't care for his creation-- but why did He send me here? not saying it directly that he sent me here.. but he knew I would come and try to bring yall closer to him. so why are yall using yalls FREEWILL to reject him?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Thanks for the fucking lyrics, let me know when you have a real response to anything. You have no proof for any of your claims. You have no desire to seek such proof because you know that there is none, just as we do.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

You think that gives you exclusive rights to their lyrics? No, it does not. You have a lot to learn about every thing it seems.

JesusSaves wrote:

and why havn't you responded to what I wrote? up above

Respond to what? What type of heart I have? I'm not going to respond to it because I think it's ridiculous. My heart does not contain my emotions or characteristics, it contains blood and muscle tissue.

many of you have said that God as omniscience power _ which He does--. but you said you don't believe because He know everything he created you... many say he created you sinful- actually he created you good--
now your saying God doesn't care for his creation-- but why did He send me here? not saying it directly that he sent me here.. but he knew I would come and try to bring yall closer to him. so why are yall using yalls FREEWILL to reject him?

If He exists, he knows that we will reject Him... we are therefore bound to reject him by His knowledge, because His knowledge is of greater power than our will. It does not explicitly say that in the Bible, but it is a logical fallacy to claim free will and omniscience can coexist.

I pray that we may each have a good week this week. and that each of us may recieve your daily bread. What ever it is we do- let your will not ours be done.

In your Son Christ Jesus name I pray to you.

Amen.

if anyone would like for me to pray for them over anything I will be doing that.

just tell me what you want me to pray over.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

I pray for these fellow mans safety for this week Oh Lord. and I pray that we may all have a good summer.

In Christ Name I pray Amen

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

I pray for these fellow mans safety for this week Oh Lord. and I pray that we may all have a good summer.

In Christ Name I pray Amen

Matthew 6:5:
5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Everybody has their own reasons, only you can answer for yourself. As for me, I believe in things because I can prove them, whether they are good or bad. You clearly don't use that as a determining factor. Maybe you believe because of fear, or it feels good, or you were forced, or brainwashed, or a sense of belonging, only you can answer that.

Hey Sapient. hope all is well my friend if you don't like my praying in which I set out for everyone to read not for my own personal good then I won't pray.

very true. only I can answer the question on why I believe what I believe or what I put my trust in.

we are all different in a sense of how people react, if you know what I mean. kind of like movies... we each have our favorite type of movie and only the person who believes can say which type of movie he really likes to watch whether it be comedy or horror movies..

like the gospels of matthew, mark, luke, and John each were written for a different reason. not all for the same audience.

like in Matthew which is believed to be for the jews the religious person which makes Jesus turn out to be a king.

Mark forgot why Marks gospel was written

Luke forgot why lukes gospel was written

John which is written for the Christian or the Spiritual person.

but what I am saying here is that we all have a different reason why we each believe/trust in something.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Hey Sapient. hope all is well my friend if you don't like my praying in which I set out for everyone to read not for my own personal good then I won't pray.

I really don't give a shit. It's your god that has the problem with your public prayer. And I'm sure he's not thrilled with you lying about it afterwards. But as we all know, you can do whatever you want, even murder your wife and children and be forgiven, so I'm sure a little lie is not gonna hurt.

from what I understand it saying is that it is speaking for those who seek things. like personal gratitude.
it says do not pray like the hypocrytes. so probally those who say they are believers and then really want people to recognize them.

Jesus followers are not to make a show of their praying, in contrast to the hypocrites it does not mean that all prayer should be private, as the plurals our and us in verses 9-13 indicate. room. the greek word here probably means storeroom because unlike most of the rooms in the house, it had a door that could be shut.

thanks for being so generous to me guys

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY

Okay Okay stop making fun of the christians- yes the sarcasm is very clever but some of them actually BELIEVE that when they say it... they are not really crazy just a little narrowminded and uneducated...

I used to post stuff like the above but realised that mocking them doesn't help...

ken says:
"I will not say I have never sinned. I have broken each and every commandment, but God sees me as a perfect person, because Jesus Christ died to set me free from this sin, and I will be forgiven each and every time I ask. It never stops, and that's what's so wonderful. A miracle you might say."

He was once sure God exists, just like you. He was studying to be a priest, and through several discussions with friends, as an open minded individual he was forced to admit he was being foolish in thinking the Christian God exists.

but he wasn't born-again... foolish into thinking that God exist? non-sense. I think its foolish to believe that God doesn't exist.

i think its foolish to belive god does exist)

JesusSaves wrote:

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Rook could teach the bible to the guy who taught you. I know very few people who know it better than him, he never stopped studying it.

see that is the problem- no one really taught me the Bible.. I kind of read it when I do which is a lot.

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No it doesn't. First off, look how arrogant this is, you and your sect are the only ones saved? Some loving god, to not let everyone on Earth be certain they need to be born again in order to truly be saved. You need to recognize that every sect believe their way is the right way. We generally look at "born again" as a way to show just how little a person has thought out their belief, and how much bullshit they're likely to fall for.

all christians will be saved if they are truely born-agian believers.. it isn't the Baptism that causes one to be saved but it is the person who suddenly--- lets see choosing the right words ---knows he is nothing and needs a savior and ask Jesus into his heart thus you concieve a new spirit meaning born-again

wow sounds like youve been with some creation scientists
)

JesusSaves wrote:

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Ironic... therefore Born again is exactly the opposite of what I am... I do the "right things" because I want to, and because of the happiness it brings me to do the right things.

well yeah I just kind of said it... I wonder who gave you those emotions inside?

you go on the assumption that god exists. prove he exists and gave you your feelings. (no really really crappy bible quotes, they dont prove anything)

*deletes shitty Christian shit-hop lyrics that make the fucking genre look even more pathetic than it already is for the overwhelming majority and are moot in any case as they have no real point that could not be much better made*

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you were once born-again.. I find that hard to believe. I guess you weren't a true born agian believer.

Bullshit. Complete and total pretentious blowhardy. You were never inside his head or mine. Believe it or not there ARE some reasonably sane people out there who've seen through the fog of ignorant mythology and apostatized from once tenacious positions of faith. I was a devout, bible-believing Evangelical Christian for most of my life and apostatized just a year and a half (about) ago.

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it took a while for me to change not like it happened all at once... my taste in music changed.. I now listen to JUST christian music- all the time--

Funny thing, because I now listen to almost all (but not all, because I don't want to be closeminded) metal music, artists like Slayer, Pantera, Deicide, Hate, Hatebreed, Obituary, Cradle of Filth, Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel... eh, the list goes on.

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I dislike it when people cuss. all I want to do is read the Bible.

Fine, but you must realize that some pretty devout Muslims will be saying those kinds of things about the Qu'ran etc...

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I don't think will power can do that.. I was once caught dead in my sin asking people if God will still forgive me if I was the same.. but instead God did forgive me.. its my changed life that I now see..

many of you ask for proof... what proof do you want?

I think your interpretation begs the question, for one thing. I think you're also arguing from personal incredulity. Well, as for proof I guess I'd have to say Bring out the elephant or in this case, deity.

Quote:

Matthew 12:39
He answered, " A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Luke 11:30
For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation.

How very closeminded. Pity that your religion has to give such sanction, let alone mandate, to this kind of ignorance.

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many of you have said that God as omniscience power _ which He does--. but you said you don't believe because He know everything he created you... many say he created you sinful- actually he created you good--
now your saying God doesn't care for his creation-- but why did He send me here? not saying it directly that he sent me here.. but he knew I would come and try to bring yall closer to him. so why are yall using yalls FREEWILL to reject him?

PLEASE, that southern drawl is SO annoying and grammatically incorrect like that! Do yourself a favor and drop the accursed thing in a debate, it makes you look foolish I'm afraid.

I'm not going to rehash the freewill vs. predestination debate for the umpteenth time- just reread the points, it's a good question but not one I'm up to answering right this sec. Suffice it to say that I am utterly convinced that there are NO gods whatsoever in this universe- so I'm not rejecting them any more than the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If they existed I'd reject them anyway, other than as tools to achieve my ends- I'm not interested in invisible, micromanagerial, self-absorbed beings that can't be bothered to do a darn thing without adulatory oration.

ken says:
"I will not say I have never sinned. I have broken each and every commandment, but God sees me as a perfect person, because Jesus Christ died to set me free from this sin, and I will be forgiven each and every time I ask. It never stops, and that's what's so wonderful. A miracle you might say."

he has killed someone?

I'm too lazy to dig up the specific bible verse about this, but to be hateful of someone without cause or some shit is murder in the heart and hence, it counts.