Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

The now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco was still part of the OCA Synod at the time of AB Lazar's acceptance by economia as a RETIRED Archbishop in 2003. AB Benjamin was not consecrated a bishop until 2004. I gather that Bishop Tikhon's vote was in the minority.

But it was still the decision of the Holy Syond; and the fact that His Grace was on the Holy Synod at the time - and presumably, therefore, was able to speak on the issue - is all the more reason for him to abide by the decision of the Synod. And I fail to see the relevance of the fact that Archbishop Lazar was received by economia or as a retired Archbishop - the fact remains that the Holy Synod received him as an Archbishop. Or should His Grace Tikhon cease to be referred to as a bishop, simply because he is retired, or Metropolitan Job ceased to be called His Beatitude simply because the entire Synod requested his resignation?

Are you talking about Metropolitan Jonah and how when he was forced to resign they took away his title of "His Beatitude" too?

I've read that they took away the style of "His Beatitude," but I have not read this anywhere on the OCA website, and until I see something from the Synod, I will continue to refer to him as His Beatitude.

Have you noticed on the OCA website that under "Former and Retired Bishops" the disgraced (Per the SIC Report, '08) Metropolitans Theodosios and Herman are referred to as "The Most Blessed," and Metropolitan Jonah is referred to as "The Most Reverend?" I really think that this distinction is terribly unfair to Metropolitan Jonah, unless, perhaps they would have accepted his predecessors retirements likewise, as opposed to how those Synods accepted their retirements.

Also, the Synodal action was recorded as Metropolitan Jonah's retirement was accepted and that he would be "His Eminence Metropolitan Jonah, former Archbishop of Washington D.C. and Metropolitan of All America and Canada."

That's just how the Most Reverend and Right Reverend Bishops of the Holy Synod chose to consider Metropolitan Jonah in his "retirement," as "His Eminence, Metropolitan Jonah, former Archbishop of Washington and Metropolitan of All America and Canada" per the minutes of the meeting of the Holy Synod.

I'm not sure though, what is appropriate practice. I can't think of precedent, but I don't think that it is necessarily so wrong, even though previous synods had considered his two disgraced predecessors (per the '08 SIC Report), as "Most Blessed," I'm thinking the Synod was thinking that there should only be one "Most Blessed" "His Beatitude," the primate, at any given time. I would guess the present Synod would not have allowed the two other "retired" former primates to remain "Most Blessed," if it were their choice. I don't think the Synod intended to penalize Metropolitan Jonah by considering him as "His Eminence."

If a Greek ruling hierarch retires at a younger age, who might be given another assignment, they would "elect" him to a titular see. Metropolitan Silas of New Jersey, was elected Metropolitan of Trianta Ecclesias (an inactive, ancient see) when the Holy and Sacred Synod of Constantinople retired him; he wasn't at a younger age, but was in poor health and did not submit a request for retirement, but I think they wanted to give him an honorary title. But, Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh, was considered "former Metropolitan of Pittsburgh," in retirement. And Archbishop Iakovos was considered "former Archbishop of N. & S. America." Archbishop Spyridon was coerced into requesting retirement and to be considered "former Archbishop of America," but the Constantinople Synod elected him "Metropolitan of Chaldea," an Elder See in Asia Minor, though their intention was to give him another assignment, which he refused to accept. I can't think of his name right now, but Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras' predecessor was retired and elected to an honorary, titular, but elder ancient see, he did not remain "His All Holiness," but was "His Eminence."

I am interested in what others think about the matter of an episcopal title upon retirement.

Perhaps it's because it's coming from Ab Lazar, whom I don't trust (I've met him 2x). But, I find it shameful that he would boldly accuse someone who can no longer defend himself and then purposely leave out the name of a living Bishop whom he says is "openly gay"

I am with you on this; he should not have used a person no longer with us to make his point, which was that homosexual conduct is a sin like all others and that a person's worth should not be judged by only one aspect of his life. He does go on and profusely praise Archbishop Iakovos. Looks like in old age, tongues loosen. As with Archbishop Lazar, Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) has also been known to have loose lips. So, what is the solution to retired and aged clergy? the only thing that I can think of is prayers for them and for us (to develop thicker hides). Lord have mercy!

What do do with retired hierarchs? The Russian solution ion the old days was the best one: let them all retire to a monastery and be simple monks again.

Agreed, but +Puhalo--as another OCA hierarch has stated--should have never been received back into the canonical Orthodox Church.

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

The now retired Bishop Tikhon of San Francisco was still part of the OCA Synod at the time of AB Lazar's acceptance by economia as a RETIRED Archbishop in 2003. AB Benjamin was not consecrated a bishop until 2004. I gather that Bishop Tikhon's vote was in the minority.

But it was still the decision of the Holy Syond; and the fact that His Grace was on the Holy Synod at the time - and presumably, therefore, was able to speak on the issue - is all the more reason for him to abide by the decision of the Synod. And I fail to see the relevance of the fact that Archbishop Lazar was received by economia or as a retired Archbishop - the fact remains that the Holy Synod received him as an Archbishop. Or should His Grace Tikhon cease to be referred to as a bishop, simply because he is retired, or Metropolitan Job ceased to be called His Beatitude simply because the entire Synod requested his resignation?

Are you talking about Metropolitan Jonah and how when he was forced to resign they took away his title of "His Beatitude" too?

I've read that they took away the style of "His Beatitude," but I have not read this anywhere on the OCA website, and until I see something from the Synod, I will continue to refer to him as His Beatitude.

Have you noticed on the OCA website that under "Former and Retired Bishops" the disgraced (Per the SIC Report, '08) Metropolitans Theodosios and Herman are referred to as "The Most Blessed," and Metropolitan Jonah is referred to as "The Most Reverend?" I really think that this distinction is terribly unfair to Metropolitan Jonah, unless, perhaps they would have accepted his predecessors retirements likewise, as opposed to how those Synods accepted their retirements.

Also, the Synodal action was recorded as Metropolitan Jonah's retirement was accepted and that he would be "His Eminence Metropolitan Jonah, former Archbishop of Washington D.C. and Metropolitan of All America and Canada."

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

With the outrageous, wholly inaccurate vile "information" stated in public media, on a perverse forum, by an Orthodox hierarch, demonstrated in the lead message of this post, "How Christian of you," is certainly not the appropriate instance for the stated sarcasm.

Agreed, but +Puhalo--as another OCA hierarch has stated--should have never been received back into the canonical Orthodox Church.

How Christian of you.

Don't you dare judge me. I have done nothing to you to be spoken to like this. I was on the grounds when this happened, and know the circumstances of it. If you want to know further details probably +Tikhon of the West would be the best to give them to you, although he was not the Bishop who first gave the details to me. Abp Lazar was uncanonical for a reason, and did not repent of his sins before being received.

Agreed, but +Puhalo--as another OCA hierarch has stated--should have never been received back into the canonical Orthodox Church.

How Christian of you.

If you want to know further details probably +Tikhon of the West would be the best (meaning most likely) to give them to you, although he was not the Bishop who first gave the details to me.

Are you seriously recommending that someone speak to Bishop Tikhon, retired bishop of the OCA DOW? If so, I find it absolutely scandalous!

I am saying that he would be the most likely to give you details. No one else, including myself, would. No I never said "recommend." You can get off your high horse once you figure out how to spell your pseudonym.

Agreed, but +Puhalo--as another OCA hierarch has stated--should have never been received back into the canonical Orthodox Church.

How Christian of you.

If you want to know further details probably +Tikhon of the West would be the best (meaning most likely) to give them to you, although he was not the Bishop who first gave the details to me.

Are you seriously recommending that someone speak to Bishop Tikhon, retired bishop of the OCA DOW? If so, I find it absolutely scandalous!

I am saying that he would be the most likely to give you details. No one else, including myself, would. No I never said "recommend." You can get off your high horse once you figure out how to spell your pseudonym.

No high horse, Father. It was a serious question. Nice jab, BTW. I hope it made you feel better.

Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

Agreed, but +Puhalo--as another OCA hierarch has stated--should have never been received back into the canonical Orthodox Church.

How Christian of you.

If you want to know further details probably +Tikhon of the West would be the best (meaning most likely) to give them to you, although he was not the Bishop who first gave the details to me.

Are you seriously recommending that someone speak to Bishop Tikhon, retired bishop of the OCA DOW? If so, I find it absolutely scandalous!

I am saying that he would be the most likely to give you details. No one else, including myself, would. No I never said "recommend." You can get off your high horse once you figure out how to spell your pseudonym.

Agreed, but +Puhalo--as another OCA hierarch has stated--should have never been received back into the canonical Orthodox Church.

How Christian of you.

Since having read this post 13 hours ago, it has stuck in my mind. It is THE MOST UNFOUNDED POST I have ever seen on "OC.net" since I signed up nearly 5 years ago. "FatherHLL" has only contributed facts and informed opinions to this and other topics; he should be considered a valued member of this forum, one whose participation should be fostered, not to be provocatively attacked.

This thread is a disclosure of a publicly pronounced post made on another site, a "facebook" page of vile substance. The fact that a hierarch of Orthodox Christianity would even read or post on such a page is cause for substantial concern in and of itself, something his hierarchical authorities should be examining. And then, this hierarch writes on the site, for public consumption, an absolutely false accusation about the life style of one of the most esteemed and dynamic hierarchs to have served Eastern Orthodox Christianity in the Western Hemisphere, Archbishop Iakovos, former primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of N. & S. America, of Blessed Memory. He also makes a similar statement about another currently active, ruling American hierarch, which I thought was Archbishop Demetrios, but other posters have indicated that may not be the case. The allegation Archbishop Lazar posted on the homosexual related "facebook" page is as erroneous, deplorable, and vile as can be imagined, exceptionally unbecoming of an Orthodox Christian, and a hierarch at that.

"FatherHLL" among others, especially "Nigula Qian Zishi's" Reply No. 39's posting from the retired Bishop Tikhon, formerly of Los Angeles, have provided a perspective about Titular Archbishop Lazar, and the "economy" by which he was received into canonical Orthodoxy, as a "retired" hierarch, and I'd assume, first being elected to a titular see--a unique manner of reception. The information has been most valuable in developing an understanding of His Eminence's actions as seen in his post at issue, and will be a substantial contribution to the ultimate outcome in connection with Archbishop Lazar's actions as evidenced by his post which is at issue herein. And "FatherHLL's" comment in Reply No. 47 that you reply to sarcastically, implying it is un-Christian, is not that at all, is a rather rational and appropriate comment in light of the factual circumstances.

Michal, your "How Christian of you" post is provocative and passive-aggressive, utterly uncalled for, wholly inappropriate, and wrong minded. Your comment would be more appropriately addressed to the "retired," Titular Archbishop in response to his "facebook" post.

I ask you to reconsider the commentary you have sarcastically, erroneously deemed essentially un-Christian, and apologize to "FatherHLL" and the other members of "OC.net" for your, provocative, unwarranted statement in your Reply No. 49.

Since having read this post 13 hours ago, it has stuck in my mind. It is THE MOST UNFOUNDED POST I have ever seen on "OC.net" since I signed up nearly 5 years ago. "FatherHLL" has only contributed facts and informed opinions to this and other topics; he should be considered a valued member of this forum, one whose participation should be fostered, not to be provocatively attacked.

This thread is a disclosure of a publicly pronounced post made on another site, a "facebook" page of vile substance. The fact that a hierarch of Orthodox Christianity would even read or post on such a page is cause for substantial concern in and of itself, something his hierarchical authorities should be examining. And then, this hierarch writes on the site, for public consumption, an absolutely false accusation about the life style of one of the most esteemed and dynamic hierarchs to have served Eastern Orthodox Christianity in the Western Hemisphere, Archbishop Iakovos, former primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of N. & S. America, of Blessed Memory. He also makes a similar statement about another currently active, ruling American hierarch, which I thought was Archbishop Demetrios, but other posters have indicated that may not be the case. The allegation Archbishop Lazar posted on the homosexual related "facebook" page is as erroneous, deplorable, and vile as can be imagined, exceptionally unbecoming of an Orthodox Christian, and a hierarch at that.

"FatherHLL" among others, especially "Nigula Qian Zishi's" Reply No. 39's posting from the retired Bishop Tikhon, formerly of Los Angeles, have provided a perspective about Titular Archbishop Lazar, and the "economy" by which he was received into canonical Orthodoxy, as a "retired" hierarch, and I'd assume, first being elected to a titular see--a unique manner of reception. The information has been most valuable in developing an understanding of His Eminence's actions as seen in his post at issue, and will be a substantial contribution to the ultimate outcome in connection with Archbishop Lazar's actions as evidenced by his post which is at issue herein. And "FatherHLL's" comment in Reply No. 47 that you reply to sarcastically, implying it is un-Christian, is not that at all, is a rather rational and appropriate comment in light of the factual circumstances.

Michal, your "How Christian of you" post is provocative and passive-aggressive, utterly uncalled for, wholly inappropriate, and wrong minded. Your comment would be more appropriately addressed to the "retired," Titular Archbishop in response to his "facebook" post.

I ask you to reconsider the commentary you have sarcastically, erroneously deemed essentially un-Christian, and apologize to "FatherHLL" and the other members of "OC.net" for your, provocative, unwarranted statement in your Reply No. 49.

FatherHLL wrote that Abp Lazar should have never been received into the Orthodox Church. I don't believe it is a good attitude, especially taking into account what Christ said: "But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.". I've also have never heard of such a precedence in history.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Since having read this post 13 hours ago, it has stuck in my mind. It is THE MOST UNFOUNDED POST I have ever seen on "OC.net" since I signed up nearly 5 years ago. "FatherHLL" has only contributed facts and informed opinions to this and other topics; he should be considered a valued member of this forum, one whose participation should be fostered, not to be provocatively attacked.

This thread is a disclosure of a publicly pronounced post made on another site, a "facebook" page of vile substance. The fact that a hierarch of Orthodox Christianity would even read or post on such a page is cause for substantial concern in and of itself, something his hierarchical authorities should be examining. And then, this hierarch writes on the site, for public consumption, an absolutely false accusation about the life style of one of the most esteemed and dynamic hierarchs to have served Eastern Orthodox Christianity in the Western Hemisphere, Archbishop Iakovos, former primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of N. & S. America, of Blessed Memory. He also makes a similar statement about another currently active, ruling American hierarch, which I thought was Archbishop Demetrios, but other posters have indicated that may not be the case. The allegation Archbishop Lazar posted on the homosexual related "facebook" page is as erroneous, deplorable, and vile as can be imagined, exceptionally unbecoming of an Orthodox Christian, and a hierarch at that.

"FatherHLL" among others, especially "Nigula Qian Zishi's" Reply No. 39's posting from the retired Bishop Tikhon, formerly of Los Angeles, have provided a perspective about Titular Archbishop Lazar, and the "economy" by which he was received into canonical Orthodoxy, as a "retired" hierarch, and I'd assume, first being elected to a titular see--a unique manner of reception. The information has been most valuable in developing an understanding of His Eminence's actions as seen in his post at issue, and will be a substantial contribution to the ultimate outcome in connection with Archbishop Lazar's actions as evidenced by his post which is at issue herein. And "FatherHLL's" comment in Reply No. 47 that you reply to sarcastically, implying it is un-Christian, is not that at all, is a rather rational and appropriate comment in light of the factual circumstances.

Michal, your "How Christian of you" post is provocative and passive-aggressive, utterly uncalled for, wholly inappropriate, and wrong minded. Your comment would be more appropriately addressed to the "retired," Titular Archbishop in response to his "facebook" post.

I ask you to reconsider the commentary you have sarcastically, erroneously deemed essentially un-Christian, and apologize to "FatherHLL" and the other members of "OC.net" for your, provocative, unwarranted statement in your Reply No. 49.

FatherHLL wrote that Abp Lazar should have never been received into the Orthodox Church. I don't believe it is a good attitude, especially taking into account what Christ said: "But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.". I've also have never heard of such a precedence in history.

I can't speak for Father, but I suspect he meant that the Archbishop should not have been received into the canonical Church with the dignity and office of Bishop. I suspect that Father would not have objected to his reception as a penitent.

As an example, back in the 1920's when Bishop Stephen (Alexander Dzubay) returned to the Church of Rome (He was formerly a Greek Catholic priest, converted to Orthodoxy, was consecrated a Bishop by the Russian Church, became disillusioned with the Russians and then returned as a penitent to the Church of Rome) he was 'banished' to a Latin-rite Monastery in Graymoor, NY where he quietly lived out his life and was buried with the dignity of a Bishop in 1933.

I am declaring a time out until next Monday. Sorry I did not catch the escalation in rhetoric earlier but I had my tenth heart transplant anniversary check-up yesterday. I am happy to report that the lab results were fine, as was the left/right heart catheterization report. Carl Kraeff

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

So if ROCOR says one thing and the OCA another, who is believed? Does he concelebrate with ROCOR clergy?

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Remember there is a reason that ROCOR deposed Deacon Lev Puhalo, who then left to join the "Free Serbs" where he became a "presbyter" then left to join the "Milan Synod" where he became a "Bishop" with the name Lazar, then left for the "Kiev Patriarchate" where he became an "Archbishop" then was accepted by the OCA as a retired hierarch without any teaching faculties. Hence, Bishop Tikhon rightfully calls him Deposed Deacon Lev.

It is not up to Bishop Tikhon to gainsay the decision of the Holy Synod. Indeed, this Forum does not accept such personal decisions; we must continue to refer to +Lazar in accordance with proper etiquette spelled out in our rules.

So if ROCOR says one thing and the OCA another, who is believed? Does he concelebrate with ROCOR clergy?

So if (insert one Jurisdiction) says one thing and the (insert a different jurisdiction) who is believed? MP vs EP who is right? Goarch vs other jurisdictions having converts remarry in the church. I think that is a much bigger issue than this.

Very true, but I meant for this forum and its preoccupation with assigning proper titles.

Well, it seems if one I was in ROCOR I wouldn't refer to him by any title, and shouldn't that be respected? If my hierarchy defrocked him it would be improper for me to recognize him and offensive for me to be compelled to do so.

As of the ROCOR-Russian Orthodox Church reconciliation of the Feast Day of the Ascension of our Lord of 2007, all sins have been forgiven. Anyone who was in communion with the Church of Russia, its daughter-the OCA, or any of the Holy Orthodox Churches, resumed the sharing of communion. I thought there was a commission that was to examine each of the instances of those who were unfrocked, but I never saw the results of that anywhere. Does anyone recall such a commission?

Since having read this post 13 hours ago, it has stuck in my mind. It is THE MOST UNFOUNDED POST I have ever seen on "OC.net" since I signed up nearly 5 years ago. "FatherHLL" has only contributed facts and informed opinions to this and other topics; he should be considered a valued member of this forum, one whose participation should be fostered, not to be provocatively attacked.

This thread is a disclosure of a publicly pronounced post made on another site, a "facebook" page of vile substance. The fact that a hierarch of Orthodox Christianity would even read or post on such a page is cause for substantial concern in and of itself, something his hierarchical authorities should be examining. And then, this hierarch writes on the site, for public consumption, an absolutely false accusation about the life style of one of the most esteemed and dynamic hierarchs to have served Eastern Orthodox Christianity in the Western Hemisphere, Archbishop Iakovos, former primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of N. & S. America, of Blessed Memory. He also makes a similar statement about another currently active, ruling American hierarch, which I thought was Archbishop Demetrios, but other posters have indicated that may not be the case. The allegation Archbishop Lazar posted on the homosexual related "facebook" page is as erroneous, deplorable, and vile as can be imagined, exceptionally unbecoming of an Orthodox Christian, and a hierarch at that.

"FatherHLL" among others, especially "Nigula Qian Zishi's" Reply No. 39's posting from the retired Bishop Tikhon, formerly of Los Angeles, have provided a perspective about Titular Archbishop Lazar, and the "economy" by which he was received into canonical Orthodoxy, as a "retired" hierarch, and I'd assume, first being elected to a titular see--a unique manner of reception. The information has been most valuable in developing an understanding of His Eminence's actions as seen in his post at issue, and will be a substantial contribution to the ultimate outcome in connection with Archbishop Lazar's actions as evidenced by his post which is at issue herein. And "FatherHLL's" comment in Reply No. 47 that you reply to sarcastically, implying it is un-Christian, is not that at all, is a rather rational and appropriate comment in light of the factual circumstances.

Michal, your "How Christian of you" post is provocative and passive-aggressive, utterly uncalled for, wholly inappropriate, and wrong minded. Your comment would be more appropriately addressed to the "retired," Titular Archbishop in response to his "facebook" post.

I ask you to reconsider the commentary you have sarcastically, erroneously deemed essentially un-Christian, and apologize to "FatherHLL" and the other members of "OC.net" for your, provocative, unwarranted statement in your Reply No. 49.

FatherHLL wrote that Abp Lazar should have never been received into the Orthodox Church. I don't believe it is a good attitude, especially taking into account what Christ said: "But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.". I've also have never heard of such a precedence in history.

I'm sorry but I can't understand how you could possibly have perceived that "FatherHLL" was commenting about Archbishop Lazar's return to the OCA as a simple laymen---nowhere has that been stated or alluded to in the commentary within this topic, as the context of this entire discussion is about his conduct as a "retired" Archbishop. It was audacious of you to be so provocative as to simply reply, "How Christian of you;" your comment was a punch below the belt, to not be as specific as I'd feel I should be. What an outrageously unwarranted reply to substantive commentary! Forgiveness is one thing, ratification of his previously non-canonical archepiscopacy is quite another, and forgiveness was not the context of the discussion.

I'm sorry but I can't understand how you could possibly have perceived that "FatherHLL" was commenting about Archbishop Lazar's return to the OCA as a simple laymen---nowhere has that been stated or alluded to in the commentary within this topic, as the context of this entire discussion is about his conduct as a "retired" Archbishop. It was audacious of you to be so provocative as to simply reply, "How Christian of you;" your comment was a punch below the belt, to not be as specific as I'd feel I should be. What an outrageously unwarranted reply to substantive commentary! Forgiveness is one thing, ratification of his previously non-canonical archepiscopacy is quite another, and forgiveness was not the context of the discussion.

In the context of this particular ecclesiastical reception, the dynamics of repentance and forgiveness were simply not at work. Lev Puhalo (as I will call him, respecting the decision of ROCOR's Synod to depose him) never repented of his "soul sleep" heresy or his public campaign against the patristic tollhouse teaching. It seems that he now denies having taught soul sleep, but with his "Retired Archbishop of the OCA" title he uses this platform to speak even more vocally against the patristic tollhouse teaching while adding to his first errors even more heretical nonsense. If he had repented, he would have returned to the Synod that had deposed him, but that would require that he give up the empty and presumptuous titles that he worked so hard to obtain from the schismatic groups that he was with for so many years. Had he indeed repented, returned to ROCOR, agreed to remain as a simple monk, and refrained from teaching, I would certainly rejoice and rightfully respect him. Instead, he has become increasingly defiant, increasingly heretical, all the while denouncing as a "cult" and "heretical" the very Synod that rightfully deposed him (ROCOR).

You are warned for 99 days for purposefully not using a title in order to make a point. This is an egregious violation of the rules and the next such violation will result in moderation. If you wish to appeal this decision, please follow the new appeal procedures (that is PM me first). Second Chance

Very true, but I meant for this forum and its preoccupation with assigning proper titles.

Well, it seems if one I was in ROCOR I wouldn't refer to him by any title, and shouldn't that be respected? If my hierarchy defrocked him it would be improper for me to recognize him and offensive for me to be compelled to do so.

Perhaps in those cases the order of precedence should decide. ROCOR is part of the Moscow Patriarchate, which comes before the OCA, so ROCOR's decision should at least be allowed as a variant, if only for members of ROCOR and the MP.

I'm sorry but I can't understand how you could possibly have perceived that "FatherHLL" was commenting about Archbishop Lazar's return to the OCA as a simple laymen---nowhere has that been stated or alluded to in the commentary within this topic, as the context of this entire discussion is about his conduct as a "retired" Archbishop. It was audacious of you to be so provocative as to simply reply, "How Christian of you;" your comment was a punch below the belt, to not be as specific as I'd feel I should be. What an outrageously unwarranted reply to substantive commentary! Forgiveness is one thing, ratification of his previously non-canonical archepiscopacy is quite another, and forgiveness was not the context of the discussion.

In the context of this particular ecclesiastical reception, the dynamics of repentance and forgiveness were simply not at work. Lev Puhalo (as I will call him, respecting the decision of ROCOR's Synod to depose him) never repented of his "soul sleep" heresy or his public campaign against the patristic tollhouse teaching. It seems that he now denies having taught soul sleep, but with his "Retired Archbishop of the OCA" title he uses this platform to speak even more vocally against the patristic tollhouse teaching while adding to his first errors even more heretical nonsense. If he had repented, he would have returned to the Synod that had deposed him, but that would require that he give up the empty and presumptuous titles that he worked so hard to obtain from the schismatic groups that he was with for so many years. Had he indeed repented, returned to ROCOR, agreed to remain as a simple monk, and refrained from teaching, I would certainly rejoice and rightfully respect him. Instead, he has become increasingly defiant, increasingly heretical, all the while denouncing as a "cult" and "heretical" the very Synod that rightfully deposed him (ROCOR).

Understood, especially in light of his actions that are the initial topic of this thread.

Very true, but I meant for this forum and its preoccupation with assigning proper titles.

Well, it seems if one I was in ROCOR I wouldn't refer to him by any title, and shouldn't that be respected? If my hierarchy defrocked him it would be improper for me to recognize him and offensive for me to be compelled to do so.

Perhaps in those cases the order of precedence should decide. ROCOR is part of the Moscow Patriarchate, which comes before the OCA, so ROCOR's decision should at least be allowed as a variant, if only for members of ROCOR and the MP.

Informal warning to all: It is one thing to discuss the merits of not using titles, it is another not using them on this Forum. Thanks, Second Chance

Since having read this post 13 hours ago, it has stuck in my mind. It is THE MOST UNFOUNDED POST I have ever seen on "OC.net" since I signed up nearly 5 years ago. "FatherHLL" has only contributed facts and informed opinions to this and other topics; he should be considered a valued member of this forum, one whose participation should be fostered, not to be provocatively attacked.

This thread is a disclosure of a publicly pronounced post made on another site, a "facebook" page of vile substance. The fact that a hierarch of Orthodox Christianity would even read or post on such a page is cause for substantial concern in and of itself, something his hierarchical authorities should be examining. And then, this hierarch writes on the site, for public consumption, an absolutely false accusation about the life style of one of the most esteemed and dynamic hierarchs to have served Eastern Orthodox Christianity in the Western Hemisphere, Archbishop Iakovos, former primate of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of N. & S. America, of Blessed Memory. He also makes a similar statement about another currently active, ruling American hierarch, which I thought was Archbishop Demetrios, but other posters have indicated that may not be the case. The allegation Archbishop Lazar posted on the homosexual related "facebook" page is as erroneous, deplorable, and vile as can be imagined, exceptionally unbecoming of an Orthodox Christian, and a hierarch at that.

"FatherHLL" among others, especially "Nigula Qian Zishi's" Reply No. 39's posting from the retired Bishop Tikhon, formerly of Los Angeles, have provided a perspective about Titular Archbishop Lazar, and the "economy" by which he was received into canonical Orthodoxy, as a "retired" hierarch, and I'd assume, first being elected to a titular see--a unique manner of reception. The information has been most valuable in developing an understanding of His Eminence's actions as seen in his post at issue, and will be a substantial contribution to the ultimate outcome in connection with Archbishop Lazar's actions as evidenced by his post which is at issue herein. And "FatherHLL's" comment in Reply No. 47 that you reply to sarcastically, implying it is un-Christian, is not that at all, is a rather rational and appropriate comment in light of the factual circumstances.

Michal, your "How Christian of you" post is provocative and passive-aggressive, utterly uncalled for, wholly inappropriate, and wrong minded. Your comment would be more appropriately addressed to the "retired," Titular Archbishop in response to his "facebook" post.

I ask you to reconsider the commentary you have sarcastically, erroneously deemed essentially un-Christian, and apologize to "FatherHLL" and the other members of "OC.net" for your, provocative, unwarranted statement in your Reply No. 49.

FatherHLL wrote that Abp Lazar should have never been received into the Orthodox Church. I don't believe it is a good attitude, especially taking into account what Christ said: "But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.". I've also have never heard of such a precedence in history.

I can't speak for Father, but I suspect he meant that the Archbishop should not have been received into the canonical Church with the dignity and office of Bishop. I suspect that Father would not have objected to his reception as a penitent.

Exactly. As you and Basil320 have pointed out, it is a self-evident part of the post that I was referring to receiving him as a hierarch, not as a layman, since that was the discussion, eg that Abp Lazar was received as a hierarch.

That's great. I guess goodness can be found in anyone, even one who promotes utterly false behavior about a hierarch who has passed from this life (see the original post), who may have experienced controversy in relation to his actions during his long archepiscopal service to the Church in America, but whose moral behavior was never in question, let alone victimized by the vile lies in link in the original post.

That's great. I guess goodness can be found in anyone, even one who promotes utterly false behavior about a hierarch who has passed from this life (see the original post), who may have experienced controversy in relation to his actions during his long archepiscopal service to the Church in America, but whose moral behavior was never in question, let alone victimized by the vile lies in link in the original post.

Indeed, it is often noted in their biographies that many bad people in world history loved their dogs and cats....

I am not a longtime friend of Arch. Lazar or anything like that, but I spent a lot of time with him during his two trips to the UK this year and got to know him fairly well. I found him to be a true gentleman, on the whole very traditional (his view on how we treat homosexuals should not be confused with an acceptance of homosexual relationships as appropriate), gracious, generous, thoughtful and kind. Certainly not comparable to Hitler's love for his dog. I think his comments about H.G. Iakovos were very unfortunate. It may be that he, as someone who claims to have suffered from sexual harassment at the hands of clergy in the past (hence his preoccupation with the subject), wrongly interpreted H.G. Iakovos' words or actions, leading to the claims in question. I don't know. Even if he genuinely believes it to be true, his words on a public forum were very inappropriate, and I am not defending them. Nonetheless, I just wanted to share the fact that the demonizing of him that often happens on this forum and elsewhere does not in any way match up to my own experience of him.

I'll have to start reading up on him, I know nothing about him or his views. It only gets my interest now that jckstraw72 syas he's the most dangerous person in the Church, if you listen to him.

He's published numerous books and a has hundreds of videos up on his allsaintsmonastery youtube channel.

Oh my gosh, that's HIM?! I used to watch those videos all the time, but wow I feel like an idiot now. I didn't know that was him.

EDIT: One of the biggest gaffe's he made, IMO, was grouping Mormonism with Protestants thinking they are the same. And also to some extent about how it doesn't matter if St Matthew didn't write his Gosepl, but the issue I found there was how he used it in his apologetics.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 10:45:01 PM by Achronos »

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

Oh my gosh, that's HIM?! I used to watch those videos all the time, but wow I feel like an idiot now. I didn't know that was him.

I strongly disagree with his view of the OT historical books. Beyond that, however, I haven't heard him say anything contrary to Orthodox Tradition. It tends to be the homosexuality issue that gets many people worked up. He has indicated several times in his videos that he considers homosexual relationships sinful, and he told me privately that "I would rather die than marry homosexuals", not that people listen. There are also those who think you have to be anti-evolution and anti-science to be an Orthodox Christian and who hate him on that account. They seem to fail to realise that on that basis they'd probably be at odds with the vast majority of Orthodox bishops around the world. Then, of course, there are the toll-houses, which have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere.

Oh my gosh, that's HIM?! I used to watch those videos all the time, but wow I feel like an idiot now. I didn't know that was him.

I strongly disagree with his view of the OT historical books. Beyond that, however, I haven't heard him say anything contrary to Orthodox Tradition. It tends to be the homosexuality issue that gets many people worked up. He has indicated several times in his videos that he considers homosexual relationships sinful, and he told me privately that "I would rather die than marry homosexuals", not that people listen. There are also those who think you have to be anti-evolution and anti-science to be an Orthodox Christian and who hate him on that account. They seem to fail to realise that on that basis they'd probably be at odds with the vast majority of Orthodox bishops around the world. Then, of course, there are the toll-houses, which have been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere.

His canonical standing and personal comments are another matter.

Yeah nothing he said, beyond a few things, seemed contrary to Orthodoxy. I'll have to watch his video on the OT historical books and I applaud him for his staunch stance on homosexuality. I think his tendency to be anti-evolution and anti-science may be more philosophically and ultimately detracting from the spirituality from the Orthodox Church.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

I think his tendency to be anti-evolution and anti-science may be more philosophically and ultimately detracting from the spirituality from the Orthodox Church.

I get a different impression- he seems to be promoting the crudest scientism with regard to the visible creation and seems utterly uncritical of modern materialist science. And, of course, if you disagree with him, you must be a Gnostic or a fundamentalist.

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But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."

I never cared about him one way or another. I always found it strange, though, how the OCA received him, as a retired archbishop; that still makes no sense to me. But I think I understand why they accepted him, now that I looked over his monastery's website and see what a wonderful facility it is. However, my feelings toward him are aggressively negative, since I saw the link posted in the original post which is a vile fabrication, a horrendous lie, about a hierarch who ranks among a very few in terms of his dedication and effective service to the Orthodoxy in the Western Hemisphere. The OCA should do to him what ROCOR was wise enough to do so many years ago, silence him.

he is problematic about the NT too -- he said the only reason Revelation made into the canon is that the Fathers actually believed it was by St. John and that it contains clearly Gnostic passages. He said this in the Ask an Orthodox Priest group on Facebook.

I think his tendency to be anti-evolution and anti-science may be more philosophically and ultimately detracting from the spirituality from the Orthodox Church.

I get a different impression- he seems to be promoting the crudest scientism with regard to the visible creation and seems utterly uncritical of modern materialist science. And, of course, if you disagree with him, you must be a Gnostic or a fundamentalist.

haha yeah, and yet he is the one who actually says Gnostic things. he said in one of his videos that science proves that you, yourself can be one gender, while your body is another. hmmmm, last i checked Orthodoxy teaches that the body IS you --- hello dualism.

I think his tendency to be anti-evolution and anti-science may be more philosophically and ultimately detracting from the spirituality from the Orthodox Church.

I get a different impression- he seems to be promoting the crudest scientism with regard to the visible creation and seems utterly uncritical of modern materialist science. And, of course, if you disagree with him, you must be a Gnostic or a fundamentalist.

Is there a video where he talks about this?

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”