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00:20:29 so for a class I just got thrown a bunch of random CL files with no package structure. where should I start with packages and the path system to get this stuff organized?
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00:40:33 arrdem: IIRC practical common lisp (available for free online) has a chapter about packages.
00:40:56 arrdem: that will organise the symbols. it's wise to split it up in files too. you can load the files using asdf.
00:41:59 arrdem: if you want an example asdf file, it might be wise to use quickproject to create a stub project for you. quickproject is available from quicklisp (which you should use if you don't use it yet).
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00:42:51 arrdem: aside from that, i think the only thing you can do is think logically about the code you received and what makes sense to export/import.
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00:48:25 madnificent: do you program with commonqt too?
00:49:31 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp
00:49:42 hi
00:49:49 I'm trying to follow this tutorial: http://www.xach.com/lisp/asdf-tutorial/
00:50:21 and trying to use this library (or system, or package, I'm a bit confused yet): https://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/
00:50:23 Posterdati: nope, can't help you there, sorry
00:50:44 madnificent: ok, thanks!
00:51:11 I tried to make my package-system-Idontknowtherightterm to depend on lispbuilder-sdl on the .asd file
00:51:14 Denommus: use quickproject
00:51:28 Denommus: quickproject may indeed help you
00:51:37 Posterdati: what is quickproject? Is there any relation with quicklisp?
00:52:13 Denommus: sure it is!
00:52:14 Denommus: a system is basically a set of files which may be loaded (possibly in a specific order). systems may depend on other systems. a package is a grouping of symbols.
00:52:30 Denommus: quickproject and quicklisp are separate. but you can install quickproject using quicklisp.
00:52:31 Denommus: (ql:quickload "quickproject")
00:53:05 Denommus: (quickproject:make-project ...)
00:53:24 hm. So the lispbuilder-sdl is a system, and the sdl package can't be found, even when I try to place it as a dependency on my .asd file
00:53:59 Denommus: http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/
00:55:03 Denommus: i just quickloaded lispbuilder-sdl and it did work
00:55:09 I'll have a look. Thank you a lot
00:55:30 Denommus: at least, the sdl package is there. i suggest you remove your own download of lispbuilder-sdl and use quicklisp's version instead.
00:55:39 Denommus: try it, your projects will be more clean and package proof
00:55:43 madnificent: yes, it does work when I quickload it. But do I have to manually quickload it every time, or is there a way to do that on compile?
00:56:28 Denommus: if you make your own asd file (possibly through quickproject) and you add lispbuilder-sdl in the :depends-on clause. (like :depends-on (lispbuilder-sdl)), then lispbuilder-sdl will be loaded before your project
00:56:32 Denommus: yes, there's a way to include packages dependency in a project, take a look at quickproject:make-project
00:56:38 I'm really a newbie on Common Lisp, I just started to learn. I just have an elisp background, it's just so different
00:56:46 Denommus: if you store your own project in quicklisp/local-projects/your-project-name/, then you can even quickload your own project.
00:57:11 Denommus: you may enjoy reading practical common lisp, if you aren't doing so already.
00:57:18 Denommus: follow the link I posted
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00:57:46 Posterdati: i think he got it ;) it probably takes a little more time to read. especially when we keep spamming :P
00:57:58 good good
00:58:22 Posterdati: I'm reading it. I'm just trying to comprehend how to run the project
00:58:38 Pratical Common Lisp is a good book for a newbie, I found it very useful (stil find it useful)
00:58:48 so, what do I compile on Emacs? My .asd? How do I run it then?
00:59:04 Denommus: if your asd file defines the system denommus-is-awesome: (ql:quickload :denommus-is-awesome) should do the trick of loading it.
00:59:17 Denommus: you've installed slime, right?
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00:59:18 you don't (necessarily) run projects, you load them. lispbuilder is a library, after all.
00:59:26 right
00:59:51 I think I understood now
00:59:55 Denommus: just open slime M-x slime and quickload the project you defined yourself :)
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01:01:16 making a comparison, my .asd is like my Makefile, where I define everything that should be compiled. Then, to run my project, I could put the "main" call inside a function, load it (possibly via quicklisp), and call this function. Am I understanding this better?
01:01:38 yes
01:02:02 perfect. Now it clicked to me. Thank you very much
01:02:16 the neat thing about quicklisp is that it will automatically download all the dependencies your system has if you don't have them already
01:02:59 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host201-213-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
01:03:06 similarly to bundler on Ruby, right?
01:03:22 possibly, I am not familiar with it
01:03:52 it's similar, but quicklisp seems even better
01:04:13 on bundler I have to manually run "bundle install" before running the project
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01:06:11 can someone recommend me a good slime tutorial?
01:07:28 google for slime tutotial
01:07:32 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
01:07:41 Be happy there's a tutorial, don't be finicky.
01:08:10 too much to ask for a good one? :/
01:08:57 prxq: My scripts use /usr/bin/clisp, it's often 2.48. Otherwise I use the latest release, 2.49+
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01:09:52 xenon_: marco van baringer had an awesome screencast about it
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01:10:18 make that Marco Baringer
01:11:43 thanks I will take a look
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02:27:37 hey, quick question, why does when in sbcl want a symbol?
02:27:50 I'm working through ANSI common lisp and when is not working right
02:29:36 can you be more specific about what you tried and what error message you got?
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02:30:24 (use paste.lisp.org to paste code or errors longer than 1 line)
02:32:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134847
02:32:49 madnificent: Okay, thanks for the advice!
02:32:55 [6~
02:32:56 you forgot the argument list for the defun
02:33:23 its a void function, im not passing anything in
02:33:36 and even without a defun, if I type the body into the repl I get the same error
02:33:41 so it is trying to use WHEN and (ODDP THAT) as names of arguments, and the latter isn't a valid name
02:33:45 univyrse: you still need () for an arguments list tho
02:34:17 are you sure it is the same error?
02:34:22 and not for exa
02:34:24 nope
02:34:34 for example complaining there is no variable named THAT or something?
02:34:42 dunno, thats weird, almost positive I've written similar functions that haven
02:34:49 havent complained at compile time
02:35:59 it seems like it would be rather easy to implement a feature that would let a function know if no arguments were defined, is there any oversight I'm having as to why I need to use ()?
02:36:07 its trivial, but im just curious
02:36:34 how do you distinguish between (defun foo (a b)) and (defun (a b))?
02:36:54 oh, well there's the oversight
02:36:57 univyrse: you can't fight the compiler.
02:37:09 (former being a function that takes 2 args and returns NIL, latter being your hypothetical function that takes 0 args and calls (A with B as an argument)
02:37:25 sorry, second should have been (defun foo (a b))
02:37:28 univyrse: if you write (defun f (print hello) (print world)) the compiler will interpret it as a function named f with two arguments, one named print and another named hello.
02:37:35 DUH!
02:37:55 yeah i get that now
02:38:40 im still trying to internalize this homoiconic thing, it's still sort of alien, and i'm easily confused
02:38:40 People are too smart for their own good.
02:39:02 univyrse: that has nothing to do with specifics of lisp, but all with how computer works.
02:39:14 They're don't deal with meaning, just with tokens.
02:39:31 any language with FIOC acts differently, I'm coming to lisp after 4 years of scripting
02:39:45 What is "FIOC"?
02:39:51 forced indentation of code
02:40:05 Ah, COBOL.
02:40:12 lol kill me no
02:40:17 python
02:40:54 Well, COBOL evolved into Cobol, and is now free form. I'm sure python will see the light in twenty or thirty years too.
02:41:01 offtopic: i read a stat on HN that said there are 220 billion active lines of COBOL, and only about a million people who know any COBOL
02:41:25 Well, there are about three million programmers world wide, so
02:41:35 that's def not accurate
02:41:37 perhaps guido's secret hobby is FORTRAN IV programming...
02:41:45 can I get a source for that stat?
02:42:12 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/453880/how-many-developers-are-there-in-the-world
02:42:53 reading that same thread right now
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02:43:39 no source or any references though, just some offhand allusion to someone named joel
02:44:08 and some people know more than one language, so you have to account for that, and some people learn a language and dont use it and forget
02:44:27 http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/20300
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02:44:33 come to think of it, that original statistic of 1m COBOLers isn't really valid
02:44:48 univyrse: knowing two languages doesn't makes you two programmers.
02:45:01 Good, you're coming to your senses.
02:45:15 pjb, that's what I was getting at
02:45:31 and that data only represents people on payrolls
02:45:40 but its better than some bullshit speculation
02:46:07 Well, there's an average. Not everybody on payroll can really program and not everybody who can program is on payroll.
02:46:10 the point is, there's an insanely small number of people who write cobol when compared to how much cobol that still runs
02:46:29 yeah, it's not really a "good" question
02:46:33 univyrse: but it _runs_. It's not bugged and doesn't need "maintainace".
02:46:47 thats a good point
02:46:58 i guess low level languages are usually more stable in that respect
02:47:12 Anyways, I have to get up to go to work in two hours. Good night
02:47:21 goodnight, nice chatting with you
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02:47:30 thanks for your help as well
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02:55:29 pjb: where does the figure of 3 million programmers come from?
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03:03:23 he left for the evening madnificent , but there's a few threads on stackoverflow that indicate a figure around 3m might be accurate
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03:04:12 univyrse: i didn't doubt pjb's credibilty. wanted a source, mainly. thanks
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03:04:53 oh, if you scroll up a bit there are links, if you want i can paste them again
03:05:01 sorry i misunderstood
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03:05:49 univyrse: missed them, thanks!!!
03:06:08 :)
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03:17:42 n
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05:37:49 Is it possible, given a symbol to get the value currently lexically bound to it? (e.g. what should foo be: (let ((x 3)) (foo 'x)) => 3 ) I can do it by rewriting part of the function to be a macro, but am wondering if there is an easier way.
05:40:00 I don't think that's possible. It would force compilers to make all lexically bound variables available by their names at all times...
05:41:24 Bike: that's what I thought... right now I have something that looks like #.`(lambda ... ) that does what I need
05:42:54 How does that work?
05:43:23 Bike: I am actually just doing the same thing over a compile-time constant list of symbols
05:44:24 er it's actually more like #.(map (lambda (x) `(stuff ,x)))
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05:45:12 hi all
05:45:37 Values are not lexically bound to symbols.
05:45:50 The Symbol is used to _name_ the lexical variable.
05:45:57 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
05:46:01 But the lexical variable is not the symbol.
05:46:14 Zhivago: okay
05:46:20 quick common lisp question - how do i force a list element to be a string? For instance, (setf *data* '("dog")) (eq "dog" (first *data*)) = NIL
05:46:30 But in the REPL, they both show up as "dog"
05:46:38 clhs eq
05:46:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm
05:46:42 clhs equal
05:46:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
05:46:44 ahungry: those strings aren't eq, they're string=
05:46:48 ahungry: read those 2 links
05:46:51 If this were not the case, consider the implication for shadowed lexical variables.
05:47:03 I can't change the equality test because I need (first *data*) to actually turn into "dog" for an (intern ,word) in a macro later
05:47:20 ahungry: if they're string= intern will give you the same result anyway
05:47:23 and my macro with the intern works if I call it with (my-macro "dog")
05:47:30 but not when I do (my-macro (first *data*))
05:47:56 that's probably because macros don't evaluate your arguments, so you end up with essentially (intern '(first *data*)).
05:47:58 ahungry: are you evaluating the argument to your macro?
05:48:12 (defmacro get-word (word)
05:48:12 `(when (stringp ,word)
05:48:14 (gethash (intern ,word) *words*)))
05:48:26 is the stringp ruining it?
05:49:09 my *words* hash table is basically a bunch of words as strings for the keys, and the actual value inside is verb/noun/etc
05:49:15 ahungry: is there a reason you aren't just using a hashtable that uses #'equal?
05:49:22 so, if I call (get-word "dog"), I want it to return "verb"
05:49:27 errr, noun, since a dog is a noun heh
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05:50:15 I'm still learning, I just finished practical common lisp but am not that great with CL at this point, how would I do that if you dont mind elaborating?
05:50:17 ahungry: or even #'equalp which will give you case-insensitivity
05:50:36 Although, note that such hash-tables probably won't be implemented as hash-tables.
05:50:51 ahungry: (defun get-word (word) (gethash word *words* :test #'equal))
05:50:53 clhs make-hash-table
05:50:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm
05:50:58 Im trying to write a little program that takes in some user input in a string of text, then uses cl-ppcre to break it up into a list of words, then I want to pull the first noun and the first verb out of their words
05:51:12 er, you don't need :test there, what am i saying.
05:51:32 ahungry: (make-hash-table :test #'equal)
05:52:23 Zhivago: #'equal hash tables won't be implemented as hash-tables?
05:53:35 thanks guys, starting tomake more sens
05:53:38 sense*
05:53:55 Would I rework this macro for setting the values? (incoming a few lines of code)
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05:54:05 (defmacro set-words (words type)
05:54:05 `(loop for word in ,words do
05:54:06 (setf (gethash (intern word) *words*) ,type)))
05:54:13 (set-words '("look" "take" "smell" "listen" "who") "verb")
05:54:28 Why did you think that these should be macros/
05:55:07 Its still not super clear when I should do macro vs function - seemed like CL was big on macros but I think I completely missed when to use them
05:55:39 ahungry: to a first approximatin: do a macro when there is no way to do it as a function, or the macro is way shorter and more readable
05:56:06 I dont suppose anyone has a small example of such a case? (and thanks btw)
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06:01:28 well, I got my little thing working, thanks guys, spent a couple hours banging my head last night and in a few minutes you all completely clarified for me <3
06:01:46 hopefully I learn to suckless on CL
06:01:52 later all
06:02:35 ahungry: check chapter 8 of "On Lisp" for some reasonable advice on when to use macros
06:02:45 thanks jasom
06:03:45 ahungry: if the special operator IF did not exist, you could not write it as a function
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06:32:37 ahungry: you could change the argument order, and have &rest words. For examples when to use macros, see the with- macros (eg. with-open-file).
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07:25:47 DataLinkDroid: actually you can: (defun if* (test then-thunk &optional else-thunk) (funcall (get (not (not test)) 'execute) then-thunk (or else-thunk (lambda () nil)))) (setf (get 't 'execute) (lambda (th el) (funcall th))) (setf (get 'nil 'execute) (lambda (th el) (funcall el))) (if* (= 1 1) (lambda () (print 'yes)) (lambda () (print 'no)))
07:26:11 It just involves some boilerplate.
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07:26:30 is that really relevant to the point, which is that you can't duplicate the syntax proper?
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07:27:07 Bike: well, if you want to duplicate the syntax, you can implement a lazy evaluator.
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07:32:19 better yet, implement a turing machine, then write a lisp with macros that runs on that
07:33:45 t
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07:57:44 pjb: so you use clisp form cvs?
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08:21:15 prxq_: i though clisp was in mercurial these days
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08:47:17 lparallel compile fails on SBCL with: Symbol "WORD" not found in the SB-EXT package
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08:47:27 quicklisp version and git master version alike
08:47:30 any idea?
08:48:28 mmm, sbcl 1.0.40.0.debian, might explain?
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08:49:39 I thought sbcl had had word for a while... maybe it wasn't exported back then.
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08:50:42 I seem to have it in 1.1.1
08:50:47 backport time, already
08:51:09 it's a one line definition if you need to just patch
08:51:56 and what's the next problem after that, then?
08:52:11 I'm under some pressure, I will just get a ccl maybe
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08:52:28 whatever works.
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08:54:10 yeah, that's my current track :)
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08:59:17 ensure_space: failed to validate 8589869056 bytes at 0x1000000000
08:59:28 mmm, sbcl won't compile when the machine only has 15GB?
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09:09:57 dim: seems strange
09:10:12 indeed
09:11:05 this time it's going on
09:11:15 dim: faulty ram?
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09:11:27 who knows? but that's a though, yes
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09:12:20 compilers are interestingly enough very good at testing ram
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09:20:44 hehe
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09:25:55 sounds more like failure to allocate enough address space than bad ram
09:27:48 *|3b|* doesn't know what would cause that on linux though
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09:56:46 ponder... wonder how much effort it would be to write a cl compiler..
09:57:05 hi
09:58:53 I need help on commonqt for the treeview control.
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10:05:37 I need to add an header to the treeview, but methods on Qt documentantion do not exists in commonqt!
10:06:39 Posterdati: you need to do more CFFI!
10:07:08 prxq: actually, it's been so long since clisp had a release, I don't remember where I got it from!
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10:09:49 clisp is still being hacked on though
10:11:19 Sure.
10:11:28 But it doesn't have a lot of bugs
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10:13:38 zorkmoid: if you use the definition of 'compile' from CL spec, a cl compiler is pretty easy, but the library would still be quite a bit of work
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10:14:17 Posterdati: that can't be true
10:14:18 zorkmoid: making it actually a useful compiler is a bit more work, potentially arbitrarily large amounts of work
10:14:35 Posterdati: all methods Qt defines are accessible through commonqt
10:15:23 |3b|: mmm... i think the library would be quite trivial enough ... mostly...
10:16:09 i like the way you say "trivial"
10:16:25 there are quite a few of even the trivial parts, and getting the details right on a bunch of it can be pretty hard
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10:16:50 don't forget you need bignums, clos, conditions, etc
10:16:52 stassats: for the most part, cl is very trivial, 80% of it is just silly stuff...
10:17:19 bignums are easy, clos wel... closer-mop ... conditions, true.
10:18:03 mm... maybe try it for the weekend ..
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10:18:41 pjb: what do you think?
10:18:59 that's why there are so many high-quality common lisp implementations. they are so damn easy to write!
10:20:16 who said anything about "high quality"
10:20:17 closer-mop is not an implementation of MOP
10:21:28 making something that isn't CL is a much easier task
10:21:38 H4ns: if it works, can compile i dunno .. another cl implementation, then that would be enough :-)
10:21:50 |3b|: for sure, but that ain't fun!
10:22:11 one could write a scheme in less than a day ... no fun
10:22:17 well, then being actually CL requires some minimum level of quality
10:22:38 if you don't care if you get a bunch wrong, i wouldn't call it CL
10:22:56 there is a term "conforming implementation", you know
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10:23:51 yes, which is the goal
10:24:04 or would be ...
10:25:24 lunch!
10:25:26 hugs people!
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10:38:40 stassats: what is the correspondig lisp method for void QTableWidget::setHorizontalHeaderItem ( int column, QTableWidgetItem * item )
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10:39:42 (#_setHorizontalHeaderItem table-widget column item), obviously
10:40:18 sorry
10:40:32 stassats: void QTableWidget::setHorizontalHeaderLabels ( const QStringList & labels )
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10:41:02 (#_setHorizontalHeaderLabels (sizes-tableview instance) (list "ciao" "bella"))
10:41:14 (#_setHorizontalHeaderLabels table-widget '("a" "list" "of strings"))
10:41:20 naturally
10:41:45 No applicable method setHorizontalHeaderLabels found on # with arguments (("ciao"
10:41:45 "bella"))
10:42:35 qtableview is not a qtablewidget
10:43:13 the method referring to a QTableWidget
10:44:08 ask somebody else to help you, i can't do that anymore
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10:48:42 done!
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