I recall being at Tulcan in 1991 and I think it was then still owned by Mrs. Panchaud. I fished 'A' beat - the Ghillie's name was Warren. It was September - not prime time - but there were a lot of fish sporting their autumn colors headed upstream. We had fresh grouse for dinner. Guests had been out hunting them with hawks.

I have never seen so many original works of art and best London guns in one place before.

__________________
When sight fishing, look over your shoulder from time to time, you never know who's behind you

I know nothing about the sale of Tulcan, I only fish there on the daily lets when you don't have to take a cottage.

Warren there lies a tale. Warren no longer works for Tulcan he was gillie at C beat in the end. The story goes he was and still is very friendly with one of the guests wives. I cannot divilge further on a public forum.

Just home from the Dee my fishing partner had a 18lb fish, I had three good pulls but thats all.

Its a great pity that you did not make it in the spring or early summer of 1991,as that was a terrific year for them at Tulchan.
The works of art you seen hanging on the walls and the fantastic gun collection in the lodge are still there,in fact since 91 these have been added to its something else!!

"I cannot understand this compulsion some anglers have to take a fish home."

Malcolm, I happen to have a family who all like to eat Salmon. I also have many friends who like to eat Salmon. I myself like to eat Salmon, so why is it so bad to take ONE home to have for the table. They are a source of food to be harvested in moderation and within the limits of conservation. Conservation doesn't always mean 100% release!

Unfortunately enough it's not until July when I have my fishing trip to Norway that I can bring a fish home for the BBQ and my family to enjoy. That's after I've spent a good few quid in my home country. I'm not complaining, cause I know the rules, but please don't start going down the road of compulsary catch and release. It's not required in "most" cases.
I think 90% C&R is well above what is required for the Spey to survive and flourish.

I did have my eyes opened this year on the Dee. Apart from the good numbers of fish running and being caught (and released)
I was quite alarmed at some of rules adopted by owners and ghilles of certain beats. It appears that a hooked and lost fish (at the net) is counted on some beats. No wonder some of the catch return figures are looking up!!!!! How ridiculous is that. Next we'll be counting kelts!!!! (-:
Personally I'm not interested in Whisky and smoked salmon as compensation or reward.

Originally posted by storlaks "I cannot understand this compulsion some anglers have to take a fish home."

Malcolm, I happen to have a family who all like to eat Salmon. I also have many friends who like to eat Salmon. I myself like to eat Salmon, so why is it so bad to take ONE home to have for the table. They are a source of food to be harvested in moderation and within the limits of conservation. Conservation doesn't always mean 100% release!

It's not required in "most" cases.
I think 90% C&R is well above what is required for the Spey to survive and flourish.

I think

It good to see that the future of the Spey is important as you thinking things will be ok. I mean the scientists are spending the Spey Boards money on research suggesting that the first fish should be returned, beats are changing this to allow anglers to tke a fish home, my solution to stop this happening is to make the Spey the same as the Dee everything goes back.

Malcolm, I am sure you are aware that some beats on the Dee still allow guests to kill fish. So this dismisses the theory that a compulsory C&R rule from the board stops fish being killed. It absolutely doesn't.

IMO, what the Spey have done is correct. They have left a bit of decision making to the angler thus stopping this ridiculous situation where 1 person fishing on one bank kills a fish and the other guy on the opposite bank is kicking up a fuss because he has been TOLD to put everything back.

If the Spey is reaching around 90% C&R (or even close to that) then I would say that's pretty good going....or is that still not enough for you?

As for visiting a fishmongers.....well they don't sell many fresh wild salmon steaks in the south east of France. Anyway I still get satisfaction from eating what I catch, even though it is Norwegian and not Scottish.

No I'm sorry it is no where near good enough. Anglers should all be told to return the fish that they catch. Most beats on the Spey follow the boards rules but others still allow fishermen to murder spring salmon. Kinermony being a prime example. Greedy fishermen will always find an excuse to murder fish, IMHO the fish should be confiscated and given to the estate.

The few Dee beats that are breaking the rules should be named, shamed and brought into line.

If fisheries with exceedingly healthy runs such as the Ponoi (Kola Peninsula) or the Rio Grande (TDF) mandate and practice nearly universal Catch & Release, why would a Scottish river--its run of Springers either depleted or threatened--fail to do the same?

As I've said before it's all about finding a balance. C&R is one factor and is important, but it's not the answer to all the issues regarding the Spring Salmon decline. You see the Tweed seems to be flourishing and it has the same C&R rules as the Spey, but it also did many other things prior to and in parallel to C&R introduction.

I know another example of a river in Norway where there is no C&R but proper river management has brought this river back to be one of the best in the country. Only 10 years ago it was in serious decline. There are also other examples where C&R have been inplace for years on certain rivers and no significant improvements has been seen.

One beat on the Spey killing fish isn't going to put the Spring run in jeopardy, so why bother yourself. If the river is now being managed properly, things will improve. ,

You'll notice, Topher, that he really didn't answer your question. I've followed this debate at times in the UK publications and one thing you can be sure of is that the catch and fillet crowd has no answer to that very question. It's always about their "right" and "needs" to take some fish home. That's why many of that ilk now go to Iceland where on many rivers they're allowed to kill even more fish. In fact, I gave up fishing there because I needed a barf bag after coming in from fishing and seeing twenty or thirty dead fish in plastic bags each day.

Well JR, for your information, I'm not part of any catch and fillet crowd, as you so put it. When I fish on my chosen rivers, many of then catch and release, I adhere to the rules and like I said before, it doesn't bother me. What does bother me are these obsessed people who can't see by catch and release as the be all and end all of conservation. It's an easy and cheap answer for many river systems!!!! Diverts responsibility from the owners to the anglers very nicely.

If a river system(i.e. in Iceland) can sustain killing fish by rod and line for food consumption, then why should it not be done? The bloody nets take enough, don't they? It's all about balance. A river system can only sustain a certain amount of fish, so if there are sufficient numbers returning, then a controlled killing of fish is quite acceptable.

I understand that the Spey, like the Dee some years ago, may benefit from an increase in Spawning fish, so a form of C&R is required to maximise the numbers reaching the Redds, but does that mean a compulsary C&R rule throughtout the river......not IMO. The majority of Salmon fishers are happy to put fish back and will do so even if they are allowed to kill. It's only the small percentage that do as they wish and show no respect. That small percentage won't make the difference, so leave it be... and don't punish the "honest" salmon fisher who may decide to take a fish home for his weeks fishing. The Spey's C&R policy, like the Tweeds, is a good.

As for handing fish into the estate to be given a side of smoked farmed salmon......this is nonsense.

I'm not sure what question I didn't answer, but I standby what I say. Proper River management and a considerate and manageable C&R policy is the way ahead.

The problem with allowing beats to break the C&R rules is that the rule breaking spreads. Kinermony is a single bank beat which marches with the Aberlour Association, Delagyle,Wester Elerchies. Now anyone seeing fish being called always say " why do I have to put my fish back they killed theirs" That is why I say have total C&R then there are no excuses, it's my first fish, I returned one last week, etc whinge whinge whinge. The boards scientists ask for the 1st 3rd etc fish to be returned for a reason, few catch 2 so get the first fish back, to hell with taking one home for the table.

Nets taking fish is a red herring and has nothing what so ever to do with C&R 2 wrongs do not make a right.

I applaud your stance on naming and shaming Kinnermony,the other beats,especially Wester Elchies must be spitting bullets watching them killing fish in the same pools that they have just returned fish to!! What happened to the passport to the redds?The one thing you must remember is that the vast majority of all other Spey beats are complying with the boards recomendations in full.The board you must remember is just getting its house in order itself this year after a very long time sitting on the fence especially from a re-stocking point of view!!and only time will tell if the results of the 4 hatcheries on the system bear fruit!!I sincerely hope it will for everybodies sake ghillies hotels,tackle outlets the whole valley for instance depends on Salmon running the system.I would say its up to the board to penalise these beats who are killing fish indiscrimenately before Europe penalises the whole river!! Iknow you write passionately on the subject but watch out for the "Coronary".The Spey board rules are spot on if adhered to!!
The point Storlaks makes about the Dee is a very valid point to!!
There are a lot of fish being banged on the head there,Ive seen them on display on slabs at some beats,and in hotels,so 100% C/R there is miles off the mark.

Naming and shaming doesn't necessarily work. We all know Invery have been killing fish on the Dee since C&R was introduced, but for economic reasons, I presume, they were not going to stop it. It's a fish per guest per week, but it still goes against the Dee board rules. However my point is this. Has this had any impact on the results of C&R on the Dee.....NO. Things have improved despite this. Has this led to an increase in other beats doing the same....NO. Do people moan about it...YES, but these people will always moan about something.

This type of situation will always happen when you have many owners on a river and there is no Scottish law forbidding the killing of Salmon before a certain date. (Lets hope that doesn't happen) So let's accept the fact that 100% C&R will not happen, in practice, and to be honest, that in itself won't have any serious impact on numbers of returning fish.

If people moan because they have to put their first fish back then they should fish harder and catch 2!!! That's the bonus of the Spey C&R policy....it offers a choice, if people wish.

What's happening in Britain these days. People are obsessed with enforcing rules! Guidelines are better.

The naming and shaming is over with!!
1 fish per guest per week is unacceptable as you and I know there are a lot of 3 day lets here,that means that in any given week there could be 12 fish in theory not going back into the river.That soon mucks up the C/R averages,plenty people out there know where I am coming from here!
Regarding the River Spey
The point you make on choice is absolutely spot on!!After you return your 1st fish you choose as a grown up whether to keep your second or not,its not rocket science,any fish returned to the river can only help,it cant hinder!!I know its only a gesture,but its a positive one,until all the well paid scientists on the river come up with the goods in a few years time these gestures will have to suffice!!
On a lighter note the reason I started this thread ,what I have been hearing regarding the 2004 spring season so far on all Scottish rivers has been very promising
hopefully this keeps up well into the season!!