I have spoken to several boardies since those fair days in june, and one almost universal theme is the incredibly loud volume of sound at the Valley Stage. When i first attended SNWMF in 2007 i recorded Bunny Wailer with my videocamera, standing halfway between the stage and the soundboard, and it sounded excellent, not distorted. No way that would work now. Since then the sound has gotten louder and louder, to the point that when one stands in the back of the bowl at the booths, its still too loud to not wear earplugs.

Yes, i have gotten older, and don't appreciate super loud music the way i once did, but that is not what's going on here. I've worn earplugs at all concerts for years now, this is just getting louder and louder.

I know the powers that be listen to suggestions. If it was possible, i would spend all my time at the Village, but much of that reason is that i'm more comfortable with the sound levels there. I don't think there would be complaints if the sound pressure at the Valley was eased a bit.

IMO ~ The sound is fine at both stages. In fact I think the sound at the Valley Stage is perfect ~ up front and in the back. It's a large area to fill with sound.
I think if you start turning the volume down you will lose the vibes of the music.
Please do not mess with a good thing.

I'd leave it to the professionals (Loren) at the sound board to provide the best possible experience for everyone! Props to him and his crew. Nomo, I'm not at all surprised video camera mics are over-driven and distort. Maybe you can get a clean board recording or feed or perhaps there are more appropriate microphones or placements. It isn't a film set, it's a festival. Respect for all you do and attempt to do! Bless.

I own and operate a sound system and like my music loud, but I have already stated that I thought the sound at the Valley Stage was too loud most of the time, but not always; So, it depended to some degree on who was running the board. Certainly the system had enuff power to go overboard with the sound level. Thats where common sense and good judgement is necessary and comes into play. Always, the louder the better? I think not; There is a reasonable range of sound levels that is a compromise where most everyone can enjoy the music.

IMO, If your are at the far back of the viewing area and you can't hold a conversation with the person next to you without yelling then the sound is too loud. There should be some area where the sound level permits this and the sound is not uncomfortably loud. Those huge vertical array speaker systems can throw the sound back to where it seems like its almost the same sound level as is front and center of the stage.

I'd be interested to know how the sound levels are established for an outdoor venue like this. Is it simply one persons subjective determination or are sound level meters used as well in some capacity to provide some objective data and criteria.

What if the guy on the board setting the sound levels has damaged his hearing over the years...can someone like that establish a desirable sound level?

For the patrons, if you have already damaged your hearing should you still be demanding higher and higher sound levels to compensate for your hearing loss at the detriment of everyone else with normal hearing?

Should large numbers of patrons be forced to wear ear plugs because a much smaller group of people like their music exceptional loud or because their hearing is impaired? There is no question you should not have been close down in front of the stage without ear protection and I don't think that is the right way to go.

These are some interesting and important questions worth considering in the planning for future shows.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and throw my two cents in here... I am neither an old man, nor a long time sound board head. But I remember a big hoopla a few years back over some new equipment that was invested in for the festival...

Maybe this was 4 years ago (?) Anyway, before that time the only complaints I heard were from artists, sound guys, dj's etc. wishing we, (snwmf) could invest in the equipment neccessary to get the sound right and proper out on the Valley stage.
I remember reading articles about the new equipment that was going to be used after that and even a thread or two of sound folks looking forward to the change. So I went that year with a bit of an education on what to expect and what to listen for as far as sound at the valley stage, and what I can remember is that was the best sound ever.

Now it seems to me that (maybe because we have the equipment to do it) that the pendelum has swung the other way and every year the Valley stage gets 10% louder. It's not just me, lets not wait till there are actuall injuries (or imagined ones) if the sound really has been "going to 11" because we can perhaps it's time to consider, just because we CAN do something, it doesn't mean we SHOULD do it.. while it seems to me that the sound has been richer than ever over the past few years it has also DEFINITELY gotten louder... Maybe we CAN dial back the volume a hair and still keep the rich tones and vibrant bass?

Just a thought from a man who enjoys my music loud, soft and in between.
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I'm not suggesting making the Valley quiet, just moderating the volume a touch. Turn the knob back down to 11 from 12.

I attended with an old friend this year. We went to listen to a couple acts Saturday afternoon at the Valley, and the buzzing in our chests from the bass was really bothering my friend. So we went back to where he was comfortable, we were both wearing earplugs, and that was so far back you couldn't see well. Just saying, that buzzing in your chest is probably not so good. I'm not talking just feeling the bass, i'm talking buzzing.

Several times on Saturday and Sunday I was center stage at the Valley Stage and it was very uncomfortable, most notably during Holly Cook's set. I was 25 to 30ft away from stage.

The bass in particular was SO loud, it just made standing there unbearable. I am a bass player and usually love bass loud -not that loud. In my opinion, it detracted from the bass tones, etc.. and made it just not a pleasant experience, rather a painful one.

I found it really difficult to listen well or to enjoy myself. Others I spoke with also noticed it.

It was just wrong - way too loud and too much bass. I can't believe I am saying this - sound like an old fuddy-duddy!

Having become habituated to a constant state of Tinnitus by the age of 6 (I @ that time thought the buzzing in my ears was actually the sound of the universe: D), I nonetheless recall shows over the years where the sheer volume was overwhelming/overpowering/deadly. Despite the primacy of bass volume in JA music, I usually found that even with bass boosted, overall music volume didn't compare to the upper level of arena rock-biz amplification.

Just for myself, I found the level of sound this year quite OK, but would hardly claim my reaction means anything more than

A), it's my reaction, and , It was said while being in a hopeful belief that research in human cloning will eventually provide me with new inner ears.

The volume was GREAT if you have children and find yourself at your camp spot A LOT feeding and checking in with the fam. Obviously I didn't see the stage, but feel like I wasn't missing any music coming from the Valley Stage!! I said multiple times over the weekend how loud it was and didn't find myself ever getting closer than the sound board area and mostly stayed on the periphery, it was just too uncomfortable on the ol ears to get any closer. Having said that, it would be sad if next year the sound levels were much lower ... because I would prefer them be too loud than too low.

Yeah, I went out to the Venue Camping area to look around and I did notice that you could hear the music exceptional well in the family camping area, even though you were some 50 yards or more away from the far end of the stage viewing area.

I can't understand why anyone would be sad to bring back the sound levels to what had been the norm some two or three years ago.

You know, there are lots of people that bought day tickets for Saturday and spent the whole day with their families on a blanket in the stage viewing area...all kinds of people of all ages, not just young reggae-heads.

Do you really think most of them enjoyed being bombarded with a very uncomfortable sound level for much of the entire day?

Who knows, but in my opinion, I'm guessing that a lot of those people will not be returning next year because the music was just too damn loud.

If that's true, that will represent a significant loss in revenue for the festival...perhaps in the tens of thousands of dollars.

If you care about the comfort of the general audience and your revenue stream you would be wise to error on the low side of the sound level, otherwise you will be driving away many repeat customers.

I never felt it was noticeably too loud, and I love the fact that I can hear the music from camp. The way the speakers angle, when you approach the first motorhomes behind the vendors is where it is the loudest: we noticed a significant increase every time we walked by (same as last year). Bass got a little too high a few times, but overall the volume seemed great to me, but of course I rarely post up in one spot for too long at these things

Not sure on amplification/boards/effects, but the speakers are essentially the same as they have been since moving to Boonville, the major exception being that the bass bins are all configured in the middle-front, facing the photo pit (the past few years), whereas they used to be directly under the main columns stacked up in a cube on each side.

Sound guys have a lot to do with it. Good ones will back channels off rather than continuously increasing things (as is the natural tendency - boost that solo a little, etc.), especially when you have the wattage/headroom available to push major decibels without clipping

"I'm gonna put on a iron shirt, and chase the devil out of earth" - Max Romeo

QuoteDubguy
Not sure on amplification/boards/effects, but the speakers are essentially the same as they have been since moving to Boonville, the major exception being that the bass bins are all configured in the middle-front, facing the photo pit (the past few years), whereas they used to be directly under the main columns stacked up in a cube on each side.

I thought they may have added some extra speakers to the vertical arrays, seems like they were a little taller this year, but maybe not.

Its my understanding that laying out the bass bins in a single line across the front of the stage is a technique to generate a horizontal line array of speakers similar in principal to the the vertical speaker arrays on each side of the stage. A line array or line source of sound decays at much slower rate then a point source, thus the sound will be much louder at a given distance.

That said, lining up the bass bins front-of-stage like that right in the face of the audience trying to get a close-up view of their favorite artist seems like a horrible idea. That just represents zero consideration for the members of the audience, you know, the people paying the bills with their ticket money.

I must say I never once at SNWMF this year felt that the music was too loud. My fiance would tell me that I am not very observant though. I just want to go back to Boomville and watch Abja again. That was such a wickid set.

Gonna have to disagree Rhythmwize....as a paying attendee, the bass and the loud music draw me and others to festivals in general. In my opinion you shouldn't be able to hold a normal conversation during a set if you're in front of the sound board

QuoteI must say I never once at SNWMF this year felt that the music was too loud.

What did you think of the levels during the "Inner Standing Sound Sanctuary" that preceded Midnite's set on the 4th Tyler? Did you think that was too loud or was it just my weak-hearted ossicles that forced me to exit the place during that......?

I wear 33 db earplugs at all shows. Period. I should be able to stand in front of the soundboard with my earplugs in and not feel like i'm going to have a heart attack from the bass. I love bass, bass is what makes reggae for me. I stand in front of Ron Benjamins bass amp at all Midnite shows, no problem. You cannot comfortably stand in front of the bass speakers at the Valley, whether in the photo pit or not, and be comfortable.

QuoteRedwood Rebel
Gonna have to disagree Rhythmwize....as a paying attendee, the bass and the loud music draw me and others to festivals in general. In my opinion you shouldn't be able to hold a normal conversation during a set if you're in front of the sound board

I would agree with that. As I said, you should be able to hold a somewhat normal conversation without yelling IF you are at the extreme end of viewing area, ie almost as far back as you can get. Or at least find a spot in that area where the sound is not terribly uncomfortable. Is that too much to ask? Thats why I always prefer outdoor venues for my bass culture music, I know it will be loud and I can almost always move back to where the sound is at my desired level for enjoyment. If I can't find a spot where the music is enjoyable (without leaving the venue) then Im done with that event. There should be a gradient of sound level such that everyone can enjoy the music, not suffer.

Heres an exerpt to consider:

At this point I need to return to one of the requirements of PA that I previously said had been solved: that the PA system should be loud enough. There's no difficulty in making it loud enough, providing you have the budget — but it has to be loud enough for all members of the audience, and that's a problem that isn't necessarily solved just by spending a lot of money.

There are two scenarios here: one where the audience are seated, the other where they are standing and free to move. If the audience are free to move, it is acceptable to have different levels in different parts of the venue. Those who like it loud will gravitate towards the loudspeakers. Those who perhaps want to chat during the show will move further away. However, if the audience is entirely seated it suddenly becomes much more difficult. You don't want to deafen the front rows of the audience while leaving those at the back struggling to hear. If only certain members of the audience are delivered a level that is adequate, without being too quiet or too loud, the PA has not fully met its purpose. Let me therefore refine the requirements of PA into this simple statement: all of the audience should enjoy high–quality sound that is loud enough and clear enough.

if you can conversate at normal volume anywhere equal to or in front of the sound board the volume should be turned up...
This year while center stage less than 10 yards from the subs we were able to chat at conversational levels during both hollie cook and leroy sibles sets, seems like we should turn it up to me

QuoteI must say I never once at SNWMF this year felt that the music was too loud.

What did you think of the levels during the "Inner Standing Sound Sanctuary" that preceded Midnite's set on the 4th Tyler? Did you think that was too loud or was it just my weak-hearted ossicles that forced me to exit the place during that......?

I dont remember anything about the music before Midnite's set at the New Parish. I got there around 1130 and remember running into you and Michael outside but dont really remember anything about the music being loud before Midnite came on at 1230 that night. I remember thinking Ron looked really tired but once the show started he was all grins and laid it down as usual. I guess everything sounds better to me than the shows we have here at the domino room in Bend, OR.

QuoteDaniel
What did you think of the levels during the "Inner Standing Sound Sanctuary" that preceded Midnite's set on the 4th Tyler? Did you think that was too loud or was it just my weak-hearted ossicles that forced me to exit the place during that......?

Hey Daniel, I do remember speaking with you while standing only 10 feet away from stacks they had setup. I remember you hanging in there for about a minute or so before you excused yourself to head to higher ground. Me personally, when listing to DJ spin music, I don't only want to hear the music but I also want to feel it. I personally thought the sound level and heavy bass was perfect for my taste. With that being said, I can see how others would think that it was to loud. I guess it just comes down to personal taste just like music.

Though the Inner Standing Sound System was quite loud (I could hear it blocks away when approching the venue), I thought the chest thumping bass was pretty awesome!

Another example of a very loud sound system, but still quite clear and not obtrusive, was the 2012 ROTR After Party at the Cooks Campground dome. That was some of the best sound quality I've heard in my life!

I have never really enjoyed the DJ scene. Does not mean I dont appreciate DJs or what they do. I tend to hear music but not really pay any attention to it. I am drawn to live bands. I dont remember the music that night being any louder than any other night. I was so excited for that Midnite show that my mind was thinking about being in the perfect spot that night. LOL

QuoteI personally thought the sound level and heavy bass was perfect for my taste. With that being said, I can see how others would think that it was to loud. I guess it just comes down to personal taste just like music.

Yes, I agree it comes down to personal taste (coupled with the tolerance that a person's ears have). I like being 'moved' by the music, literally, but there comes a level of sound where the only 'moving' that gets done is to move me away from the sound (as was the case in Oakland earlier this month).

I'm guessing there comes a level of volume at which point even the most 'devoted' soundsystem cultured individual thinks it is too loud. To me, the key is to strike a 'balance' so that the people who want it loud can hear feel it, while those who want it a little more subtle can still enjoy the music. While I don't personally sign onto the notion that the music at a festival should be low enough to carry on a conversation, I DO believe that people shouldn't be relegated to the Family Camp area in order to hear the music without having their ears buzz for the next 2 days as seemed to be the case for a large number of artists performing on the valley stage this year........

Turn down for what???? are you guys kidding I have been going to SNWMF since 1996… And you all getting old… we have a joke before this post - ehhh turn it down I'm trying to have a reggae festival… ah puke - big up the rasta mon!!! big up da rude boy!!! if its to loud go to bluegrass are you kidding me!!! turn it down give me a break now I heard everything!!!! Boring!!! This is a concert people - I love big production - turn it down I just puked in my mouth… I can't believe my lying eyes….

QuoteDanielI'm guessing there comes a level of volume at which point even the most 'devoted' soundsystem cultured individual thinks it is too loud. To me, the key is to strike a 'balance' so that the people who want it loud can hear feel it, while those who want it a little more subtle can still enjoy the music. While I don't personally sign onto the notion that the music at a festival should be low enough to carry on a conversation, I DO believe that people shouldn't be relegated to the Family Camp area in order to hear the music without having their ears buzz for the next 2 days as seemed to be the case for a large number of artists performing on the valley stage this year........

Some friends and I went to Cali Roots and we left Saturday night early because you couldn't hear the songs if you were standing behind the soundboard...seriously. If you were anywhere behind the soundboard the music was nonexistent for you. We came back sunday in the hopes it would be better for Jr Gong....nooooopppppeeeee. The sound was weak....the crowd knew it and Damian knew it and the set lacked as a result in my opinion. I come to Sierra Nevada because I expect the best every year...and every year it delivers. The best artists, the best environment and the best SOUND....who feels it knows it...and I always expect to feel it inna BOOMVILLE.

I love the Valley Stage. For those whom may have children it is perhaps better to camp at Family Camp. Common sense states that we are at a Music Festival. We are all here for the music for that's what it is all about.

I used to work in a tall downtown building with the engineering department. You ask any one of them what the biggest complaint is? Its too Hot. Second biggest complaint is? Too Cold. My point is you cant please all the people all the time.

The Sierra soundsystem is the best in the west - don't touch a thing and don't buy into those negative posters. I think they are from ROR and trying to stir up discontent.

I've been to 18 SNMF since 1995-Big Up Marysville! One day I'll stop. I guess when I'm more concerned with the sound being too loud, or the parking lot DJ's at 3am, then I'll stop the festival and try something new.

disclaimer: using my husbands name......
love that booty base!!!!! dont mind the thump in my chest, but the treble was trouble last yr. I couldnt find a place in the valley where i could hear the music - the volume level and sound quality was like a noise grenade.
I have a hunch the sound is wonderful right infront of the stage. Any where behind sound board - to the sides and especially the bleachers was biologically offensive. Dont know how this can be remedied.

So I measured the sound levels in several parts of both stage areas. At the Village, ten feet behind the soundboard on the left, it was 95 DB. Fifteen feet from the left set of speakers it was 100 DB, and in the photo pit it was 105 DB. In each case most of the sound was in a 5 DB range with the specified figure as the top. At the Valley, in the back of the bowl in front of the vendors, it was 95 DB. At the soundboard it was 100 to 105 DB, and in the photo pit it was 110 DB. The Village levels were measured while the Bebble Rockers did soundcheck, which if you missed it included a Twinkle Bros tune or two, and the Valley was measured during Holly Cook's performance, which seemed like one of the quieter performances there.

Nomo YOU ARE A STAR!!!! Thank you so much for your works and for all that you do to forward the music. Was a blessing to formally remeet and your constant video presence was a great soother for my dashing between stages to cover syndrome. Many blessings!

I checked once but……usually it's too loud to be directly in front of the speaker. This year i was in front of the speaker no problem. So BOOMVILLE! Turn it up. Buy fancy earplugs that let some noise in. Y'all are old or need to a hire a babystitter for your kids for the weekend. This is a concert! u want to talk walk away from the stage. After 20 years my hearing is not damaged, so it can't be that bad.

I think the majority likes the volume level so I am thinking of others and their enjoyment. Comfortable with a bass they can feel and tones they can't miss. You with your soft ears and a couple of grandparents should consider the others that came to enjoy music at a concert not just yourself.

i feel for the babies n toddlers, they are so sensitive to sounds...there are those that wear the headphones and those that do not .
I was across the st.at one point about a block away, in the car, taking a break, and i heard the music quite clearly...Thinking that 1) the wind is carrying the sounds,2)that it was way too loud....Festivals do not need to be so loud that it is piercing the eardrums, sometimes when it is so loud, it becomes distorted sounding and uncomfortable to stay around and listen to...just my 2cents
I found the sound in the village at certain times was much better than in the valley...

Randomguy...after 20 years my ears didn't seem damaged either. But what i found out after 25 years or so was that they accumulate damage that your brain accounts for, so you don't realize it until it gets to a certain level. I have been wearing 35 db earplugs at all concerts for ten years. I can hear the music fine still, and i avoid any further damage. If you notice, when i reported the sound levels, i didn't comment on the levels this year. If i had to bet i would say it was a little bit quieter than last year at the Valley as you said. I was reasonably comfortable in the photo pit with my earplugs. But i didn't spend all too much time at the Valley. The Village seemed at least as loud as last year, but thats highly subjective. Sound mix was excellent at both stages, and i didn't hear the musicians complain much either.

Oh My God! I agree with turning it down. I say take it a little further, also at some clubs. I love to dance up front but lately I can't take the extremely loud music, even ear plugs don't help sometimes. What's the point of turning up so loud? I believe is some sort of control thing, not sure what, but its not cool.

I've been to a zillion concerts and if you are anywhere near the front where the big speakers are, IT'S LOUD!!!!! I literally had to take a knee in the dancehall a few years ago, when a feedback pop during Jah Shaka almost blew my brains out as I was walking right in front of a beefy speaker. At that time I was like "why so loud?", but now I guess I feel like, If it's too loud move away from the speaker system. Although I do empathize with everyone's concerns on this subject.

QuoteDanny Crucial
I've been to a zillion concerts and if you are anywhere near the front where the big speakers are, IT'S LOUD!!!!! At that time I was like "why so loud?", but now I guess I feel like, If it's too loud move away from the speaker system. Although I do empathize with everyone's concerns on this subject.

Yes, if its too loud, move back away from the speakers...thats the approach I have always taken in the past whether its outdoor reggae festivals or Caribbean carnival parades with their massive speakers systems on the back of flat-bed trucks.

However, the new reality, as experienced at last years SNWMF, is that you no longer have the option to move further back as the sound level was extremely loud at the far end of the viewing area. One reason for this is the modern vertical line-array speaker systems now in use are designed to throw the sound out so that the sound levels are almost as high in the far back as in front. Furthermore, you used to be able to move close into the center in front of the stage to escape the high sound levels and find your sweet spot but that option has been eliminated at SNWMF by the addition of a horizontal line-array of bass bins across the front and right in your face.

In my view, the ideal sound system would allow most everyone the option too seek a viewing spot where the sound is both super loud and just comfortably loud. The system should NOT be designed and operated to fill the entire viewing area with the same super loud sound level. Providing the same sound level throughout the viewing area is something that is more appropriate at a venue such as the Hollywood Bowl where people are locked into a specific seat and can't move to seek their desired sound level and, in that case, a compromise in sound level is necessary.

Based on several reports, it appears the attendance at this years festival was noticeably down from previous years. It is quite possible that a major contributor to this decrease was the extremely high sound levels throughout the entire viewing area during many sets. Family's with children and the casual fan simply are not willing to chance a repeat of that uncomfortable experience. I know it was a factor in my decision not to attend this year after attending this festival almost every year since 1995.

Edit: Here is an exerpt from a technical article on Line Array Speaker Systems which says pretty much what I was trying to say.

At this point I need to return to one of the requirements of PA that I previously said had been solved: that the PA system should be loud enough. There's no difficulty in making it loud enough, providing you have the budget — but it has to be loud enough for all members of the audience, and that's a problem that isn't necessarily solved just by spending a lot of money.

There are two scenarios here: one where the audience are seated, the other where they are standing and free to move. If the audience are free to move, it is acceptable to have different levels in different parts of the venue. Those who like it loud will gravitate towards the loudspeakers. Those who perhaps want to chat during the show will move further away. However, if the audience is entirely seated it suddenly becomes much more difficult. You don't want to deafen the front rows of the audience while leaving those at the back struggling to hear. If only certain members of the audience are delivered a level that is adequate, without being too quiet or too loud, the PA has not fully met its purpose. Let me therefore refine the requirements of PA into this simple statement: all of the audience should enjoy high–quality sound that is loud enough and clear enough.

A line array has a narrow dispersion at each end of its cylindrical wave-front. This helps to reduce room reflections and improves sound intelligibility. The narrow dispersion also allows the line array to throw (project) further than a simple point source system.

A point source loudspeaker will loose 6dB with every doubling of distance. A line source will only loose 3 dB with every doubling of distance, showing a major improvement of throw. This means that a point source starting at 130dB at 1m will be 88dB at 128 meters compared to a line source starting at 130dB will be 109dB at the same distance.

I think the sound quality this year was better than ever. It's always good at snwmf, but this year there were so few squeeks or complaints or feedback or anything. My compliments to the sound crew also. Really, a show at the Village for me is about as good as it gets.