Andre Drummond

The numbers that this guy is putting up in limited minutes is staggering. 8pts 14rbs in 23 mins tonight against the Bulls. I remember a game earlier this season where he put up 12pts and 12rbs in 14mins. Drummond is a freak of nature.

Back in the draft i wanted the Raps to draft a wing(Rivers or Lamb) didn't want any part of Drummond because we already have JV. But man watching Drummond this year WOW. Do you guys think a 4-5 combo of Drummond and JV could work? i'm asking this because they're both natural centers.

also didnt want drummond. but man he might even make new orleans sad for not picking him. i think jv and drummond could work. i think drummond has the speed and agility to play the 4. i thought he was going to be a lazy player but it looks like he is going to be the best from the draft. amazing package in a big man. and jv can hit a 10-15 footer. the rebounding and blocking they could do together would be sick.

You guys get too hyped seeing those dunks, because this doesn't really need any skill, jump and dunk? He should thank his mother and father for that. 3 pointer was nice, drive to the basket through 4 players as well, few blocks and his speed, that's pretty much all. Of course he will be dominant in defense someday I believe, but Pistons will need to invest much more time for him to pan out than any other rookie Big in the league atm, imo. Btw, if you haven't noticed video's speed is increased so it creates additional impression.

You guys get too hyped seeing those dunks, because this doesn't really need any skill, jump and dunk? He should thank his mother and father for that. 3 pointer was nice, drive to the basket through 4 players as well, few blocks and his speed, that's pretty much all. Of course he will be dominant in defense someday I believe, but Pistons will need to invest much more time for him to pan out than any other rookie Big in the league atm, imo. Btw, if you haven't noticed video's speed is increased so it creates additional impression.

I'm not sure who the 'you guys' are supposed to be....

but the point wasn't 'ohh ahh owww....jump high... drool'. It was there is alot more a guys game than missing a couple free throws (or being a bad free throw shooter in general). To claim that some how free throws 'sum' him up is overlooking alot to his game. I'd also add Shaq, Ben Wallace, and Dwight Howard have all been key (if not 'the') player on contending/title winning teams despite being attrocious free throw shooting Cs. (thats not touching other 'poor' freethrow shooters such and Chandler, Duncan and Bynum).

You guys get too hyped seeing those dunks, because this doesn't really need any skill, jump and dunk? He should thank his mother and father for that. 3 pointer was nice, drive to the basket through 4 players as well, few blocks and his speed, that's pretty much all. Of course he will be dominant in defense someday I believe, but Pistons will need to invest much more time for him to pan out than any other rookie Big in the league atm, imo. Btw, if you haven't noticed video's speed is increased so it creates additional impression.

I agree. I think Drummond can be pretty good, but I haven't actually watched him play once where I'm impressed with his basketball ability. Physical abilities are nice, but they are nothing you can rely on too much or for too long. He has A LOT of work to do if he doesn't just want to be a DeAndre Jordan-type.

but the point wasn't 'ohh ahh owww....jump high... drool'. It was there is alot more a guys game than missing a couple free throws (or being a bad free throw shooter in general). To claim that some how free throws 'sum' him up is overlooking alot to his game. I'd also add Shaq, Ben Wallace, and Dwight Howard have all been key (if not 'the') player on contending/title winning teams despite being attrocious free throw shooting Cs. (thats not touching other 'poor' freethrow shooters such and Chandler, Duncan and Bynum).

This guy has stud written all over him.

I think the guy's point was that Free Throws are related to skill level, especially with Drummond. Of the players you mention, only Shaq was truly a dominant offensive force....I can't even put Dwight there. I mean, what's his go-to move? The dunk off a putback or alley-oop? The best centers in history are not the ones who are the biggest or jump the highest, they are the ones with the most skill. All-star bigs who have won rings since Dwight came in? Duncan, Gasol, Bosh. Bigs who controlled the last 2 decades before that? Jabar, McHale, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan (again)....People tend to incorrectly put Shaq in the physical freak category because of his size, but he was a skilled freak, with a super soft touch and amazing footwork.

With Drummond, it's very obvious if you watch him how poor his skill level is. Did you see how low the release point is on his shots? EVen his hook shots that he almost shotputs up? He can only convert right at the basket, and heavily depends on dunks. It doesn't mean he can't improve, but he has far to go and a poor start-off point.

Drummond has no halfcourt skills, cant post up, cant shoot from anywhere. Still useful, as he is active on the boards, is a physical presence, and will finish hard when he can, but I dont see him as a game changer nor an allstar.

but the point wasn't 'ohh ahh owww....jump high... drool'. It was there is alot more a guys game than missing a couple free throws (or being a bad free throw shooter in general). To claim that some how free throws 'sum' him up is overlooking alot to his game. I'd also add Shaq, Ben Wallace, and Dwight Howard have all been key (if not 'the') player on contending/title winning teams despite being attrocious free throw shooting Cs. (thats not touching other 'poor' freethrow shooters such and Chandler, Duncan and Bynum).

This guy has stud written all over him.

Like white men can't jump and enlightenment said, he is a freak athlete with no skill. The dude does not know what to do in the post, JV was eating him up and smashing his garbage shots all over the place. I can see him being a good defensive presence but he has a very low bball iq and terrible touch around the rim. He has to be right at the rim to make a shot and even that's not a sure thing. You guys are just drooling over his athleticism but if he doesn't put in the work he'll just be deandre Jordan till his knees give out. JV is the true stud here

Drummond is great and is only 19 years old, the second youngest player in the NBA right now. His game has improved immensely from last year at UConn. I expect all facets of his game will continue to improve baring serious injury. Lawrence Frank is bringing him along slowly, limiting his minutes. It seems to be working just fine.

I think the guy's point was that Free Throws are related to skill level, especially with Drummond. Of the players you mention, only Shaq was truly a dominant offensive force....I can't even put Dwight there. I mean, what's his go-to move? The dunk off a putback or alley-oop? The best centers in history are not the ones who are the biggest or jump the highest, they are the ones with the most skill. All-star bigs who have won rings since Dwight came in? Duncan, Gasol, Bosh. Bigs who controlled the last 2 decades before that? Jabar, McHale, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan (again)....People tend to incorrectly put Shaq in the physical freak category because of his size, but he was a skilled freak, with a super soft touch and amazing footwork.

With Drummond, it's very obvious if you watch him how poor his skill level is. Did you see how low the release point is on his shots? EVen his hook shots that he almost shotputs up? He can only convert right at the basket, and heavily depends on dunks. It doesn't mean he can't improve, but he has far to go and a poor start-off point.

I understand everyone has their own preference in style but I still don't understand the FT argument. Its so out of place.

... Duncan is a career 68% FT shooter... so his skill level is what - below average? Shaq - it doesn't apply to him because when he got older and became experienced he added a post up? (which was basically abusing his size)?

This is a 19 year old rookie. Shaq when he was a rookie didn't have a soft touch - all he had was brute size and athleticism. Dwight only had athleticism. Chandler only had athleticism. Ben Wallace only had athleticism.

These guys all improved as they matured and became game changers.

Dwight > Pau or Bosh by a landslide. He led his team to the finals. His team was a perennial contender between the time he gained experienced and until his injury. The other two were 2nd and 3rd bananas on great teams who won titles thanks to their HoF teammates. Its an apples to oranges comparison.

One can argue the other two are more 'skilled' sure. But Dwight, through pure strength and athleticism dominated. You don't need to be 'skilled' when you can control and change the game with other means. These aren't PGs were are talking about.

It's not an argument. I didn't say Drummond can't shoot free throws, therefore he sucks. I said Drummond has a low skill level, and in his case, free throws are a very good example of that. You bring up Duncan and his 68%...but we're talkign 34-35% here....that's dreadful. It's like the guy has never shot a basketball in his life.

Can Drummond dominate on D just with his size and athleticism? Sure, he can be a real force there. His game could always be limited though if he stays raw. I mentioned it earlier, and NoProps brought it up too, but basically he looks like DeAndre Jordan, and that's not really a very complete player.

I agree with Craiger's argument on free throw shooting being irrelevant to this topic of conversation, because like he said, so many of the recent past/now great bigs, were/are terrible free throw shooters.

Drummond is an athletic monster, a freak of nature. Quite frankly, he's got a great demeanor too, and doesn't sulk and have his head down 24/7 unlike a certain rookie on the Raptors. So far, he's proven many of the scouts wrong about his motor, he's working every possession. He might not have a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist/Thomas Robinson motor, but he definitely gets work done in the paint, on both ends.
I do agree with the fact that Drummond isn't very skilled with his back to the basket, but because of his athletic ability, youth, and physical strength, there's no denying he can be a force IF he develops some type of post game. Although, I would say Drummond is extremely effective in the pick-&-roll. That's why many said the biggest beneficiary of the Calderon trade would be Drummond, because both of them excel in that simple game.

Looking back at the draft, there has to be a good reason Colangelo did not draft Drummond. Many said it was because of the log jam at the four. Had the Gay trade still went, AND we drafted Drummond, it definitely would have been appropriate, because now he fills a need and is the BPA. Not to mention he's got miles the potential than Ross.

If anything, Drummond's ceiling is Deandre Jordan, which in my opinion is telling of how good this guy can be. I certainly believe a big tandem for the future - key word, future - of Drummond and Valanciunas would be effective. Drummond's athletic ability at the four against most of today's fours wouldn't put the team at an disadvantage, especially because he's also physically strong to handle the typical NBA fours.

I'm one of those who say "why are we looking back on something that we obviously can't change", but this is an exception because it was definitely possible (and it would've been the right pick) with Lillard/Barnes not falling.

It's not an argument. I didn't say Drummond can't shoot free throws, therefore he sucks. I said Drummond has a low skill level, and in his case, free throws are a very good example of that. You bring up Duncan and his 68%...but we're talkign 34-35% here....that's dreadful. It's like the guy has never shot a basketball in his life.

Can Drummond dominate on D just with his size and athleticism? Sure, he can be a real force there. His game could always be limited though if he stays raw. I mentioned it earlier, and NoProps brought it up too, but basically he looks like DeAndre Jordan, and that's not really a very complete player.

Nor did I said you did. What you did say was Free Throws represent skill level - and how much higher of a % Duncan shoots is irrelevant.

Either its a true statement or its not.... you can't have your cake and eat it to.

To the 2nd bold - being a 'complete' player is itself a relative term. Why does a big man need a jump shot? Is it nice to have? Sure. But its not a necessity. Again the list of different bigs I gave above with no jump shot yet were still dominate players or game changers in their own right- winning titles, going to finals, MVP considerations etc.

I think Raptor fans have become jaded with the finesse big men Colangelo covets. For a big man to be good, or great, or a superstar - he doesn't need to hit a 16fter or try and take guys off the dribble.

RaptorReuben

I think passing on Drummond is going to haunt the Raptors. A Drummond/Val front court could have been a potent force down the road. I think its yet again a great example of why lottery teams should always be drafting the BPA and not for need. You not only miss out on the best player, but your needs can change real quick.

Either its a true statement or its not.... you can't have your cake and eat it to.

To the 2nd bold - being a 'complete' player is itself a relative term. Why does a big man need a jump shot? Is it nice to have? Sure. But its not a necessity. Again the list of different bigs I gave above with no jump shot yet were still dominate players or game changers in their own right- winning titles, going to finals, MVP considerations etc.

I think Raptor fans have become jaded with the finesse big men Colangelo covets. For a big man to be good, or great, or a superstar - he doesn't need to hit a 16fter or try and take guys off the dribble.

RaptorReuben

I think passing on Drummond is going to haunt the Raptors. A Drummond/Val front court could have been a potent force down the road. I think its yet again a great example of why lottery teams should always be drafting the BPA and not for need. You not only miss out on the best player, but your needs can change real quick.

Key statement right there. Plus, remember when BC came out and made the deal? He was saying the fact he's been pursuing Rudy Gay since last off-season, which speaks volume to "your needs can change real quick."

I mean, you draft Ross, and you already have Derozan and Anderson available at the 2, assuming that Fields started, Kleiza came off the bench. Before the Gay trade, we already had an assortment of wings at our disposal. Add in Gay + Pietrus signing, there you have it. Drummond gets drafted, you had Davis leaving, Amir stays as an effective 3rd big, and Drummond steps right in with Valanciunas.

Like I said in the previous, I personally think it's silly to go back and say "what if, what if", but like you said, it could really come back and bite the Raptors and front office in the ass.

Either its a true statement or its not.... you can't have your cake and eat it to.

To the 2nd bold - being a 'complete' player is itself a relative term. Why does a big man need a jump shot? Is it nice to have? Sure. But its not a necessity. Again the list of different bigs I gave above with no jump shot yet were still dominate players or game changers in their own right- winning titles, going to finals, MVP considerations etc.

I think Raptor fans have become jaded with the finesse big men Colangelo covets. For a big man to be good, or great, or a superstar - he doesn't need to hit a 16fter or try and take guys off the dribble.

RaptorReuben

I think passing on Drummond is going to haunt the Raptors. A Drummond/Val front court could have been a potent force down the road. I think its yet again a great example of why lottery teams should always be drafting the BPA and not for need. You not only miss out on the best player, but your needs can change real quick.

No I didn't say it represented skill, I said it can be related to skill level. This is a wholly different concept. What I'm saying is that it is not surprising to see a poor free throw shooter also lag behind in other areas of skill. And with Drummond, his ft shooting is just that, a nice example of his poor skill. I could just be saying this out of my ass, but I feel like there are probably a lot more poor FT% shooters who were all around terrible players than there were dominant players.

As for your comment on Colangelo and finesse bigs....what are you talking about? My opinion has entirely nothing to do with Colangelo and his bigs. The best bigs bring a solid 2-way dynamic, and don't rely entirely on physical gifts because those are fleeting and unreliable. Jabar could shoot his hook shot from 20 ft away. Hakeem had jumpers and post moves he could make from just about anywhere 15 ft and in. Even David Robinson, who was an athletic freak, had a decent ft line jumper.

To shoot one back at you, I think you've become jaded by the lack of quality big men in this league. Skilled big men are just so rare now that for some reason they get seen as finesse players....Is JV a finesse guy? Is Demarcus Cousins? Is Marc Gasol? Good bigs used to bring the total package, now too many people IMO have become satiated by just seeing a big guy who jumps high.

Oh, and also, part of my issue in general is I really don't believe Drummond will be able to defend PFs. Watching him the last couple of Raps games against them, and the bits and pieces I've seen of him...he's a C. He's athletic and explosive for a C, but I don't see him keeping up with PFs on a regular basis. So that's why I'm not really into the debate of "what if", because I don't think it would work long-term at all. Best case, it would give a very very good trade chip for down the road.

I just wanted to add that FT shooting is a legit skill. Imagine how much more dominant Howard would be if he shot 75%. Teams couldn't hack him, and it could net him at least 2-3 points more per game, not to mention more than that on nights where he makes lots of trips, which are common even without the hack-a-Dwight. IT is a legit skill when it can affect your ability to be on the floor at the most important part of the game. Being a dominant player is somewhat difficult if you can't be out there.