"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."

SenselessÖ Definitions- foolish, meaningless ,stupid.

Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Meónevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done."

Was not the cause of Christ the will of the Father.When Jesus said not my will but yours to the Father.Was Jesus making any kind of distinction? Did the Father have a Will? Did Jesus have a Will?Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free willto surrender to the Father.

so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard, and to everyone else, that my imprisonment is in the cause of Christ.

"Did the Father have a Will?" THE Father IS the WILL.Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

"Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free willto surrender to the Father."Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.'

Scriptures clearly indicate that the Father has a will . For this is the will of My Father: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

THE Father IS the WILL.

I tried to be a diligent Berean and find this Statement in Scriptures but could not.would you be able to help.

God is with you in everything you do.God is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes His mind. Does He speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.God is GodGod is faithfulGod is the head of Christ.God is goodGod is lightGod is love.

No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son desires to reveal Him."

I am going away and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

and you will leave Me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.

I have asked this question at times about the soul(and I do not want to even get close to going there!)Where is the Bible was man given a "will"?

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, all the earth,[h] and the creatures that crawl on the earth."27 So God created man in His own image;He created him in the image of God;He created them male and female.Rule ..Exercise ultimate power or authority over to impose ones will over

Matthew 10:33But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

John 7:17If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority

Luke 6:47Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:

Sometimes I think Jesus tailors his message to the audience.

If unbeliever, then respond with My God sends me the doctrine, believe the works if you dont believe meIf believer, say that I teach and teach these two commandments , they believe that Jesus come forth from God

Really, very cool Shawn. Like, I can still hear that voice echoing down through the ages past and the ages to come, "Let Us Make Man In Our Image"........ Wow

and the process is still ongoing, "an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together of all things into one in Christ"......"in hope that the whole creation would be set free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God"

wow oh wow

Exactly - this is what I have thought for a long time now. This whole fleshly existence in this physical world with all of its pain, suffering, sprinkled with moments of joy, is for a very good purpose.

Consider this verse which we are all probably quite familiar with here.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This is actually quite a remarkable thing. We often talk about the 'all men being saved' part, but lets focus on the second part: all men will come unto the knowledge of the truth.This implies there is a process at work here. This is God's purpose for us. It also implies we don't have the truth (at least all of it) yet.

Here is the important bit. This means, right now, we are in error about some things or most things!

Implicitly in this process, we start off in a condition of complete error, and are working our way towards understanding complete truth. We are each at different places in this process.

You can think of a scale from 0% truth to 100% truth. At the 0% end we have pure lies which leads to things like pure evil and suffering. We all start out at the 0% end and are proceeding to knowledge of 100% truth.

Think of a newborn baby. She thinks she just has to cry and open her mouth, and food magically appears. But she is in error - it won't always work this way.Then the baby becomes a toddler and thinks she can walk off the top of the stairs because the 'parent-figure' will catch her and she just floats away. But she is in error, and inevitably takes a tumble down the stairs. She has discovered gravity.Then a few years later this little girl thinks Santa brings her presents if she is good. But she is in error.... etc.

Now if you can't see that you might be in error, you cannot proceed to learn the truth, because you think you already have it - why would you need to learn the truth if you already have the truth?. This is pride.

But pride leads to humility, when we inevitably stumble and realize we are in error.

This is all part of the process of things we must learn and experience - good/evil, joy/pain, pride/humility. If we did not learn and experience what these things are, how could we ever achieve the goal of full understanding of the truth?

Exactly - this is what I have thought for a long time now. This whole fleshly existence in this physical world with all of its pain, suffering, sprinkled with moments of joy, is for a very good purpose.

Consider this verse which we are all probably quite familiar with here.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This is actually quite a remarkable thing. We often talk about the 'all men being saved' part, but lets focus on the second part: all men will come unto the knowledge of the truth.This implies there is a process at work here. This is God's purpose for us. It also implies we don't have the truth (at least all of it) yet.

Here is the important bit. This means, right now, we are in error about some things or most things!

Implicitly in this process, we start off in a condition of complete error, and are working our way towards understanding complete truth. We are each at different places in this process.

You can think of a scale from 0% truth to 100% truth. At the 0% end we have pure lies which leads to things like pure evil and suffering. We all start out at the 0% end and are proceeding to knowledge of 100% truth.

Think of a newborn baby. She thinks she just has to cry and open her mouth, and food magically appears. But she is in error - it won't always work this way.Then the baby becomes a toddler and thinks she can walk off the top of the stairs because the 'parent-figure' will catch her and she just floats away. But she is in error, and inevitably takes a tumble down the stairs. She has discovered gravity.Then a few years later this little girl thinks Santa brings her presents if she is good. But she is in error.... etc.

Now if you can't see that you might be in error, you cannot proceed to learn the truth, because you think you already have it - why would you need to learn the truth if you already have the truth?. This is pride.

But pride leads to humility, when we inevitably stumble and realize we are in error.

This is all part of the process of things we must learn and experience - good/evil, joy/pain, pride/humility. If we did not learn and experience what these things are, how could we ever achieve the goal of full understanding of the truth?

Amen!! This reminded me of a song "I can't Even Walk Without Him Holding My Hand".

seems to me,Jesus said...the Father loves me..because I lay my life down willingly. No-one takes it from me.

is that what it means to have 'life' in yourself? the willingness..the free will[no-one takes it from me]

This is what has always seemed to me to be the lesson of Jesus the Son and the gracious process of the Potter with the Clay. As we are transformed into His image, we are learning to lay down our lives willingly, freely.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. (Rom 12:1-2)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will( thelo ethelo)have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1Ti 2:3-4)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will(thelo ethelo), let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

will thelō ethelō

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (Mat 16:24-25)

There are over 200 uses of this word in the New Testament used interchangeably for God's will and man's will.

Consider this verse which we are all probably quite familiar with here.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This is actually quite a remarkable thing. We often talk about the 'all men being saved' part, but lets focus on the second part: all men will come unto the knowledge of the truth.This implies there is a process at work here. This is God's purpose for us. It also implies we don't have the truth (at least all of it) yet.

Here is the important bit. This means, right now, we are in error about some things or most things!

Implicitly in this process, we start off in a condition of complete error, and are working our way towards understanding complete truth. We are each at different places in this process.

You can think of a scale from 0% truth to 100% truth. At the 0% end we have pure lies which leads to things like pure evil and suffering. We all start out at the 0% end and are proceeding to knowledge of 100% truth.

Think of a newborn baby. She thinks she just has to cry and open her mouth, and food magically appears. But she is in error - it won't always work this way.Then the baby becomes a toddler and thinks she can walk off the top of the stairs because the 'parent-figure' will catch her and she just floats away. But she is in error, and inevitably takes a tumble down the stairs. She has discovered gravity.Then a few years later this little girl thinks Santa brings her presents if she is good. But she is in error.... etc.

Now if you can't see that you might be in error, you cannot proceed to learn the truth, because you think you already have it - why would you need to learn the truth if you already have the truth?. This is pride.

But pride leads to humility, when we inevitably stumble and realize we are in error.

This is all part of the process of things we must learn and experience - good/evil, joy/pain, pride/humility. If we did not learn and experience what these things are, how could we ever achieve the goal of full understanding of the truth?

Amen!! This reminded me of a song "I can't Even Walk Without Him Holding My Hand".

CHB

This is the LORD'S doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. (Psa 118:23)

Regardless of what we, individually, believe about how we all get there- maturity is, in a word, humility- and the realization that 'without Him I can do nothing.'

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (Mat 16:24-25)

There are over 200 uses of this word in the New Testament used interchangeably for God's will and man's will.

In Strong's I looked up the word: #2309- It seems to most closely match the English word "choice" or "desire". I read this like God has "choices" & "desires", and man likewise, we just don't often make the right choices, God always does but appears to not always enforce his "choices" or "desires" upon us.

Exactly - this is what I have thought for a long time now. This whole fleshly existence in this physical world with all of its pain, suffering, sprinkled with moments of joy, is for a very good purpose.

........and what do you think this "very good purpose" is?

To learn what good and evil is, and to learn how to be good, so we can learn and understand how to love, and come to know God, because God is love. This is what being made in His image means.

which is to say, you are free to choose what you will be slave to...but you are going to be slave to something.

From: Paul, a servant of Jesus the Messiah, called to be an apostle and set apart for God's gospel, Rom 1:1

Romans 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Exactly - this is what I have thought for a long time now. This whole fleshly existence in this physical world with all of its pain, suffering, sprinkled with moments of joy, is for a very good purpose.

........and what do you think this "very good purpose" is?

To learn what good and evil is, and to learn how to be good, so we can learn and understand how to love, and come to know God, because God is love. This is what being made in His image means.

What you stated above is what I view as the necessary "process" via which there is a greater mission to be fulfilled. God created man in his image to rule the world as daj pointed out above in his previous post from Genesis. But what really is God's purpose in creating us to learn to "rule" over the earth? After all we won't be here for all of eternity, for Christ himself stated that "Heaven & Earth shall pass away....." Matt 5:18, Mk 3:31 . I'm presuming the "heaven" to which Christ makes reference is the location of the stellar universe in which our planet Earth is located, not that abode which is the domicile of the Elohim of creation.

Christ tells us to pray in a manner such that the Father's "will be done on earth as in heaven" Matt 6:10, that to me is a clear statement that our heavenly Father's "will" presently has a limited extant, that it does not pervade the four corners of the earth & also the vast expanse of the stellar universe.

Satan took 1/3 the host of heaven with him in rebellion at some point in the past. Where are these rebellious followers of Satan in residence? They are not in heaven with God, sure God allows Satan to present himself to appear in heaven from time to time, but only Satan, but he doesn't live there, he's been wandering to & fro about planet earth like a creature lost in a vast wilderness.

The Apostle Paul tells us we will judge angels, 1 Cor 6:3. This being the case, the question is: Why & where are they? Jude 6 & 2 Pet 2:4 tells us about angels reserved in chains under darkness until the time they are judged, hello 1 Cor 6:3 is that not us doing the judging? And don't you wonder the location of the "darkness" where rebellious spirit beings are presently being held in chains? I know I do.

Here's my point about our ultimate "mission". The Elohim Gods of creation intends to have all of creation restored, including those rebellious spirits being held by chains in a prison of darkness somewhere within the stellar universe. The stellar universe is an incredibly vast expanse of stars contained inside of galaxies too numerable for the human mind to count, yet Elohim God calls them all by name, Ps 147.4. While knowing the number of stars & calling them all by name, we are also informed in Job 25.5 that they are not pure in his sight, they are not pure because a third of them rebelled against God & are presently being held in chains in some dark expanse of the stellar universe, I say stellar universe because that is also Satan's abode even though he is not yet chained, he wanders within the earth, and apparently within the stellar expanse between earth & God's throne where he appears from time to time to make accusations against us, see Job 1:6-7.

Learning the difference between good & evil while on earth appears to be our training ground for judging the rebellious angels. The learning process comes partly from our experiences of physical pain to the central nervous system out of which we learn compassion towards others, judges often issue edicts out of compassion, but Satan (and all the rebellious angels) has no concept of compassion because he can feel no physical pain as we humans do. As we learn compassion while here on earth, we become qualified as rulers over those spirits held in chains & darkness, and it becomes our mission to them to bring them to repentance & restored to their Creator.

You may be an ambassador to England or FranceYou may like to gamble, you might like to danceYou may be the heavyweight champion of the worldYou may be a socialite with a long string of pearls.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeedYou're gonna have to serve somebody,It may be the devil or it may be the LordBut you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might be a rock'n' roll adict prancing on the stageMight have money and drugs at your commands, women in a cageYou may be a business man or some high degree thiefThey may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeedYou're gonna have to serve somebody,Well, it may be the devil or it may be the LordBut you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a state trooper, you might be an young turkYou may be the head of some big TV networkYou may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lameYou may be living in another country under another name.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes You're gonna have to serve somebody,Well, it may be the devil or it may be the LordBut you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a construction worker working on a homeYou may be living in a mansion or you might live in a domeYou might own guns and you might even own tanksYou might be somebody's landlord you might even own banks.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes You're gonna have to serve somebody,Well, it may be the devil or it may be the LordBut you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may be a preacher with your spiritual prideYou may be a city councilman taking bribes on the sideYou may be working in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hairYou may be somebody's mistress, may be somebody's heir.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes You're gonna have to serve somebody,Well, it may be the devil or it may be the LordBut you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silkMight like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milkYou might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat breadYou may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed.

But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeedYou're gonna have to serve somebody,It may be the devil or it may be the LordBut you're gonna have to serve somebody.

You may call me Terry, you may call me JimmyYou may call me Bobby, you may call me ZimmyYou may call me R.J., you may call me RayYou may call me anything but no matter what you say.

You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeedYou're gonna have to serve somebody,Well, it may be the devil or it may be the LordBut you're gonna have to serve somebody.