Are you deliberately being obtuse? you are the original poster of this thread.
Do you believe that the short videos you have posted have any creditability in Thai law or not, if not why post them.
Consulting three different lawyer's was my way of covering every nook and cranny before I went the Usufruct way.
To the doubters I will ask, if a usufruct is not legally binding then the lawyer and the government official at the land office who added my name to the chanote have broken the law...Yes or No?
Your #50 does not make any sense. Sorry.

Stop talking in riddles and answer my questions.
In your opinion is an Usufruct agreement legally binding or not?
Have you made a will leaving all your assets to your children or not?
If you have made a Last will & Testament under Thai law ,in your own opinion
do you think it is legally binding or will you children have to be well connected and pay a lot of money to claim their inheritance? ? ? ? ?

Not have a Will as i own nothing in Thailand, and own nothing in UK now all my money is tied up in my wife's name, she is many things but i know 1 million percent she would never sell this land as her mentality is to keep everything.

If she was to get a new husband all land will go into my sons name. this she has assured me of and i believe, we have bought lots of land that was her families land but lost through her fathers gambling habit, she wanted her family status back to what it was.

I would say the usufruct could be contested by the thai and would have more of a chance of winning than a farang.

I heard a story a few years ago of a farang who had a usufruct and his wife died, and her family wanted him out, they got him out in the end in a wooden box.

Norton you were well connected do you think, if you weren't you would of won your case?

Suppose as related to usufruct, I was well connected. International law firm drew it up and represented us in court. Again, it was related to a commercial venture. Lot's of law firms advertise preparation of usufructs. Be wary. Preparation is easy. More important is their track record or ability to represent you in court if a legal case occurs.

I have been to Thai court for civil case related to breach of partnership contract with a "connected" Thai. Won a judgement. Winning a judgement and getting paid are of course two different things.

I don't buy the "farang can't win in Thai court". Having a proper contract/agreement in place to start essential. Going to court with a good lawyer armed with records documenting how the contract was breached is the key to winning a favorable judgement.

So you have no legal protection whatsoever, So when the shit hits the fan despite your wife's assurances you believe her 100% no matter what. I think that's rather foolish on your part. You could easily be another one of many farangs carried out in a wooden -box You still haven't answered my questions about Usufruct agreements being legally binding or not.o My wife just can't make it null a void on a whim and march right up to the land-office and get my name taken off the chanote. No she would have to have a lot of money to fight it through the thai courts an presumably friends in high places to get the result she wants. According to some poster's on here its so easy to do that for a Thai, rubbish. I have legal protection and for what its worth I am glad I have it. Too many threads are ruined by the bar-stool and
armchair experts on this forum just blowing wind out of their arses.

You opinion is being a bar stool expert yourself, i have known my wife for 13 yrs and understand how she works, but as all bar stool experts know they know better.

i have in no way said you wife would do anything, there are a lot of good Thai people not all are the same as there supposed to be.

Any person who gets ripped of here has themselves to blame, lifes to short for being constantly paranoid.

Originally Posted by jamiejambos

So you have no legal protection whatsoever, So when the shit hits the fan despite your wife's assurances you believe her 100% no matter what. I think that's rather foolish on your part. You could easily be another one of many farangs carried out in a wooden -box You still haven't answered my questions about Usufruct agreements being legally binding or not.o My wife just can't make it null a void on a whim and march right up to the land-office and get my name taken off the chanote. No she would have to have a lot of money to fight it through the thai courts an presumably friends in high places to get the result she wants. According to some poster's on here its so easy to do that for a Thai, rubbish. I have legal protection and for what its worth I am glad I have it. Too many threads are ruined by the bar-stool and
armchair experts on this forum just blowing wind out of their arses.

You opinion is being a bar stool expert yourself, i have known my wife for 13 yrs and understand how she works, but as all bar stool experts know they know better.

i have in no way said you wife would do anything, there are a lot of good Thai people not all are the same as there supposed to be.

Any person who gets ripped of here has themselves to blame, lifes to short for being constantly paranoid.

Originally Posted by jamiejambos

So you have no legal protection whatsoever, So when the shit hits the fan despite your wife's assurances you believe her 100% no matter what. I think that's rather foolish on your part. You could easily be another one of many farangs carried out in a wooden -box You still haven't answered my questions about Usufruct agreements being legally binding or not.o My wife just can't make it null a void on a whim and march right up to the land-office and get my name taken off the chanote. No she would have to have a lot of money to fight it through the thai courts an presumably friends in high places to get the result she wants. According to some poster's on here its so easy to do that for a Thai, rubbish. I have legal protection and for what its worth I am glad I have it. Too many threads are ruined by the bar-stool and
armchair experts on this forum just blowing wind out of their arses.

Last time I sat on a bar-stool was two years ago when visiting friends in Phuket.
Not paranoid in the least, I believe in safety first hence the Usufruct agreement.
My wife is a good, gentle and loving person just like her Mama & Papa and the whole family are good Buddhists. Again I believe in safety first and have legal protection just in case the shit MIGHT hit the fan ad everything is just rosy in my garden just now and not needing to look over my shoulder at all unlike a few on this thread not to mention any names.

Not have a Will as i own nothing in Thailand, and own nothing in UK now all my money is tied up in my wife's name, she is many things but i know 1 million percent she would never sell this land as her mentality is to keep everything.

Are you deliberately being obtuse? you are the original poster of this thread.
Do you believe that the short videos you have posted have any creditability in Thai law or not, if not why post them.
Consulting three different lawyer's was my way of covering every nook and cranny before I went the Usufruct way.
To the doubters I will ask, if a usufruct is not legally binding then the lawyer and the government official at the land office who added my name to the chanote have broken the law...Yes or No?
Your #50 does not make any sense. Sorry.

Jamie, your lawyer has broken no laws, he acts on your instructions, in Thailand lawyers are not held accountable for opinions.
If your lawyer happened to be a farang, then he isn't even a lawyer, only a Thai can practice law here.
The land office has broken no laws, they only register things and will not register anything to do with alien which can not be voided at the land office.
You or you wife can go to the land office at anytime and void the usufruct, no need for courts. That's the law simple as that.

Besides all the other rules and regulations, the Land code is plain, an alien can not own or control the use of land with out permission of the director general of the land department.

Think of it his way, if it was all above board, wouldn't property development companies be selling houses to farangs with usufruct, no need or he condominium act.

LAND OWNERSHIP AND THAI SPOUSE
Foreigners are not allowed to have co-ownership in land together with a Thai spouse.Contour Thailand

Land acquisition by a Thai married to a foreigner
IF A FOREIGNER has a Thai spouse then land could be bought on the name of the Thai spouse but obviously this carries some risk. The property will be registered in the Thai spouse's name and for the spouse to buy the land proof is required that the money used to purchase the property is legally from the Thai spouse, with no foreign claim to it. The same applies in case of the purchase of a condominium unit exceeding the foreign ownership quota in such condominium. In case of acquisition of land, land and house or in some cases condominium and registration of ownership at the Land Department the Thai spouse;

has to show evidence that all money paid is a personal property (Sin Suan Tua) according to Section 1471 and Section 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code, or;
must together with his/her foreign spouse at the Land Department's provincial or local land office confirm in a standard certify letter of confirmation that all money paid for the property is personal property (Sin Suan Tua) and not a common property (Sin Som Ros). It is in this case not the Land Department’s policy to investigate the actual sources of funds. (*) If the foreign spouse does not live in Thailand it can be recorded by ambassador / consular or notary public in such country.

It is only since the Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23, 1999 (Most Urgent Letter Mor.Thor 0710/Wor.792) that a Thai national married to a foreigner is allowed to legally acquire and register ownership of land in Thailand. Prior to the regulation a Thai national married to a foreigner lost the right to acquire land in Thailand because without the procedure the foreign spouse could acquire an illegal interest in land as property between husband and wife (continue: the registration procedure). The procedure in the 1999 regulation issued by the Ministry of Interior is based on the principle of section 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code that if personal property has been exchanged for other property during the marriage that property becomes and remains a personal property and not a jointly owned property between husband and wife. This way the foreign spouse does not obtain any ownership rights in the land based on Thai family laws (property between husband and wife). Without the joint confirmation in the certify letter or proof the acquisition is paid with personal property of the Thai spouse the request for ownership registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister. Without written evidence the land office will not allow registration of ownership.

Note: Any foreigner’s minor having Thai nationality may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land if it does not appear after investigation that he/she has done so to avoid the law (primarily aimed at tax laws).

Management of the land by the Thai spouse married to a foreigner
The land must become a separate and personal property (Sin Suan Tua) of the Thai spouse according to section 1471 and section 1472 of the Civil Code, and not a jointly acquired or community property between husband and wife (Sin Som Ros). As opposed to jointly owned marital realty property (section 1476) the Thai spouse can sell, mortgage, transfer or exchange the property without consent of the foreign spouse read more...

Inheritance of land by a foreign spouse as statutory heir
In theory a foreigner can acquire land by inheritance as statutory heir (as opposed to legatees or heirs who are entitled by last will) and register ownership after having obtained permission from the Minister of interior. Section 93 of the Land Code Act: 'A foreigner who acquires land by inheritance as statutory heir can have an ownership in such land upon a permission of the Minister of Interior. However, the total plots of land shall not be exceeding of those specified in Section 87'.

It should be noted that the over 55 year old section 93 applies only to foreign ownership of land under a treaty (section 86 Land Code Act) and NOT to foreigners receiving land as a statutory heir from a Thai spouse. The last treaty allowing foreigners to own land in Thailand was terminated in 1970 therefore there is currently NO legal ground for the Minister of Interior to allow any foreigner to acquire land in Thailand as a statutory heir.

This in practice means that any foreign spouse who acquires land by inheritance as a statutory heir has to transfer the land within 1 year to a Thai national. The forgoing applies only to foreigners inheriting land as a statutory heir and not to foreigners heirs who acquire land under a last will.

Inheritance of a condominium
Any foreigner who acquires a condominium unit by inheritance, either as statutory heir or inheritor under will, shall obtain ownership of such unit, but must qualify under section 19 of the Condominium Act to actually register ownership with the Land Department. If he does not qualify under section 19 or if he qualifies but his ownership would exceed the allowed 49% foreign ownership in the condominium building it is required by law that the unit shall be disposed of within 1 year from the date of acquisition of such condominium unit. If the foreigner fails to do so, the Director-General of Land Department shall have power to sell the condominium on the foreigner's behalf, read up 'condominium acquired by inheritance'.

Land purchase procedure for a Thai national married to a foreigner
Certify letter of confirmation procedure
A THAI NATIONAL who has a foreign spouse and who would like to legally acquire land in Thailand must prove that the money used on the purchase is personal property and sign a letter of confirmation signed together with the foreign spouse in front of the competent official certifying that the spending on land is separate personal property (Sin Suan Tua) of the Thai spouse and not a personal property of the foreign spouse, or common (sin som ros) marital asset between the spouses.

The regulation and procedure is aimed at preventing that the acquisition of land by the Thai spouse would create co-ownership in land together with the foreign spouse based on Thai family laws 'assets between husband and wife', and it is in addition aimed at preventing that a Thai spouse would act as the owner of land on behalf of the foreign spouse.

'Letter of Confirmation'

sample land office confirmation document

Source: Land Department

Land office procedure

The Thailand Land Department issued in 2009 the following information on the procedure for the letter of confirmation under the regulation 'acquisition of land by a Thai national married to a foreigner'. The explanation by the Land Department was given following earlier remarks made by the Director General of the Land Department which was published as 'land purchase through Thai spouse forbidden' read article...

The proceedings of certify letters are as follows:

1. In case a foreign spouse lives in Thailand:
1.1 In case a foreign is a legally spouse, a Thai and a foreign spouse have to give joint confirmation in certify letter according to the forms which were specified by the Department of Lands in front of the competent officer in the date of registration of rights and juristic act that the spending on land is sin suan tau of a Thai not sin som ros of the spouse.
1.2 In case a foreigner is an illegally spouse, a Thai and a foreign spouse have to give joint confirmation in certify letter according to the forms which were specified by the Department of Lands in front of the competent officer in the date of registration of rights and juristic act that the spending on land is personal asset of a Thai only not common property.
2. In case an foreign spouse lives in Thailand but could not proceed according to No.1: In case a foreign spouse lives in Thailand but in the date of registration a foreigner could not give written confirmation together with a Thai in front of the competent officer at the registration land office. A Thai and a foreign spouse shall lodge the application of testimony form for confirming that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset of only a Thai not sin som ros or common property by lodging the application to the competent officer at provincial land office or any branch land office.
3. In case a foreign spouse lives in oversea and could not lodge the application of testimony form according to No.1 and No.2. The foreigner has to contacts the embassy, consular or notary public for giving testimony of the foreign in certify letter according to the forms which were specified by the Department of Lands that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset of a Thai not sin som ros or common property one. The embassy, consular or notary public has to certify that person, who applies for certify letter, is truly spouse or they live together as husband and wife with a Thai. After, a Thai who would like to purchase land shall bring original of certify letter to the competent officer for registration of rights and juristic act accordingly.
4. In case a Thai who has legal or illegal foreign spouse, if a Thai could show the evidence indicates that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset according to section 1471 and section 1472 of The Civil and Commercial Code, the competent officer could registers rights and juristic act for a Thai without testimony form of Thai nationality and an alien spouse according No.1 – No.3.
5. In case a Thai, who has a foreign spouse, purchased land before 23 March B.E. 2542 but informed or submitted a false document declaring that he/she is single. For relaxation of rule to a Thai, who has legal or illegal alien spouse, purchased or owned land after the date of marriage. And a Thai informed or submitted a false document to the competent officer declaring that he/she is single or a Thai has no foreign spouse prior to the date of issuing letter of Ministry of Interior, Urgent No. MOI 0710/Circulation 792 dated 23 March B.E. 2542. A foreign spouse and a Thai shall together give a written confirmation in certify letter in front of the competent officer that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset of only a Thai not sin som ros or common property one. After, the competent officer retains documents in dealing file. If a foreign spouse who lives oversea and could not give written confirmation together in front of the competent officer, an alien has to contacts the embassy, consular or notary public for giving testimony of an alien spouse in certify letter according to the forms which were specified by the Department of Lands that the spending on land is sin suan tau or personal asset of a Thai not sin som ros or common property one. The embassy, consular or notary public has to certify that person, who applies the certify letter, is truly spouse or they live together as husband and wife with a Thai. After, a Thai who would like to purchase land shall bring original of certify letter to the competent officer for retaining documents in dealing file.

DOWNLOAD: THAI ENGLISH PDF DOCUMENT ISSUED BY LAND DEPARTMENT OF THAILAND

Thai marriage and assets of husband and wife
THAI MARRIAGE property law is largely governed by the section property between husband and wife in the Civil and Commercial Code. In general 'benefit and income' of each spouse acquired during marriage will under Thai law become jointly owned property between husband and wife. A prenuptial agreement is an allowed concept in Thailand however it is not possible to exclude the general property regime between husband and wife in a prenuptial agreement.

Personal property in a Thai marriage

Thai family and marriage laws specify that property belonging to either spouse before the marriage remains his or her personal property after the marriage. If during the marriage personal property has been exchanged to other property this remains a personal property.

Section 1471 of the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code: 'Personal property (Sin Suan Tua) consists of: (1) property belonging to either spouse before marriage, (2) property for personal use, dress or ornament suitable for station in life, or tools necessary for carrying on the profession of either spouse, (3) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift'.
Section 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code: 'As regards to Sin Suan Tua (personal property), if it has been exchanged to other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall be Sin Suan Tua. Where the Sin Suan Tua has been totally or partly destroyed but replaced by other property or the money, such other property shall be Sin Suan Tua'.

Marital or common property

Section 1474 marital assets (matrimonial or common jointly owned property between husband and wife) is under Thai law called 'Sin Somros' and consists of:

property acquired during marriage;
property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will of gift made in writing if it is declared by such will or document of gift to be Sin Somros;
fruits of Sin Suan Tua.

In case of doubt as to whether a property is Sin Somros (jointly owned) or not it shall be presumed to be Sin Somros

Section 1474 last sentence means that all property acquired throughout the course of the marriage becomes jointly owned marital property between husband and wife regardless of how the title is held except properties that fall under sections 1471 and 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code, but some proof that a property is personal property will be required. When the marriage ends due to death or divorce marital property will be divided and distributed in equal shares.

Sample of the benefit and income rule in Thai family laws (property between husband and wife): If you have 100,000 Thai baht in your bank account at the time of marriage and at the time of divorce in Thailand you saved together with your Thai spouse (the source does not matter) an additional 15,000 baht from and received 5,000 interest over your savings your spouse shall according to Thai family laws be entitled to half of the increase (i.e. 10,000 baht). An inheritance will not automatically become a marital property but becomes a personal property (Sin Suan Tua) of the person receiving the inheritance and the other spouse is not entitled in a divorce to the increase the other spouse received by the inheritance.

Management of property during marriage

Each spouse shall remain the manager of his or her personal property during marriage in Thailand. Certain marital property must be jointly managed and other property can be managed by each spouse. A prenuptial agreement as a pre-marriage contract may give the right to manage Sin Somros (jointly owned marital property) to one of the spouses. Without a prenuptial or marriage contract certain legal acts with regards to certain jointly owned properties must be managed jointly by husband and wife and requires joint consent.

Section 1476 of the Thailand Civil and Commercial Code 'In managing the Sin Somros in the following cases, the husband and wife have to be joint manager, or one spouse has to obtain consent from the other:
Selling, exchanging, sale with the right of redemption, letting out property on hire-purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on mortgageable movable property.
Creating or distinguishing the whole or a part of the servitude, right of inhabitation, right of superficies, usufruct or charge on immovable property.
Letting immovable property for more than three years.
Lending money
Making a gift unless it is a gift for charitable, social or moral purposes and is suitable to the family condition.
Making a compromise.
Submitting a dispute to arbitration.
Putting up the property as guarantee or security with a competent official or the Court.
The management of the Sin Somros in any case other than those provided in paragraph one can be made by one spouse without having to obtain consent from the other'.
Management of real estate during marriage

A foreigner married to a Thai is not allowed to have any form of joint ownership in land together with his or her Thai spouse. Any land acquired in Thailand during the course of the marriage with a foreigner cannot be a Sim Somros or marital asset according to section 1474 but must become a personal asset of the Thai spouse accorsing to section 1471 and 1472. As a non-marital asset it will be managed by the Thai spouse solely. In practice often land and house in Thailand will be registered as a personal property of the Thai national. An important aspect for the foreign spouse is of course the fact that the Thai spouse has full management and control over the property and is able to sell or encumber the property without the consent of the foreign spouse (section 1476 does not apply). In addition, as a non-marital asset at death or in a divorce it will not automatically be divided as a common property between husband and wife (read up on division of the marital home).

Also if the Thai spouse dies the foreigner has to deal with the heirs of the Thai spouse unless a last will has been made, read more...

If protection is required the first protection for the foreign spouse lies in obtaining joint or sole ownership over the building separate from the land. It's only the land aspect of the property that is restricted for foreign ownership, not the structures upon on the land or immovable property as a whole. The structures on the land can be a jointly owned property or even owned as a personal property of the foreign husband (section 1472). By assuring ownership or co-ownership over the house in a separate procedure at the Land Department the foreign spouse prevents a situation where the Thai spouse is able to sell the whole property without the consent of the other spouse (see section 1476 management of Sin Somros above). When the house is regarded as a Sin Somros it must be jointly managed by both spouses and selling would need both spouses consent (unless a prenuptial agreement to this regard has been made).

Section 1475 (Civil and Commercial Code): 'Where any Sin Somros is property of the kind mentioned in Section 456 (meaning immovable property) of this Code or has documentary title, either husband or wife may apply for having his or her name entered in the documents as co-owners'

The second option for protection lies in a right of usufruct, or in case of undeveloped land a right of superficies over the property registered in the foreign spouse's name at the Land Department. A right of usufruct or superficies registered on the title deed is an acceptable protection for a foreign spouse, especially if the money expended on the property comes from what is considered personal property of the foreign spouse.

Protect your rights in a real estate owned by a Thai spouse
Real estate ownership by a Thai national married to a foreigner

When you registered a property (land and house) in Thailand on your Thai spouse's name during your marriage you may have thought about a personal protection in the form of a usufruct to protect your interest in case of divorce or in the event your Thai spouse would predecease you. However, you may not be familiar with the right of usufruct in Thailand as it is a typical Civil Law property right and you may also not be aware what your rights and obligations under a right of usufruct are.

The usufruct of an immovable property is primarily the right to use and manage another person's real estate property and receive the benefits ('fruits') from it. Management in this matter means to the extent permissible for foreigners under Thailand land laws. This means you can live in the house and you can for example rent it out and keep the rent but as a foreigner you cannot register a rental exceeding 3 years with the Land Department.

The usufruct does not give the right to sell the property nor does it gives the title to the property. The usufruct comes to an end at the end of the agreed period and on the death of the person granted the right of usufruct. Whether the usufruct is given for a period of time of up to 30 years or for the life of a person, in any case, the usufruct comes to an end on the death of the person granted the right of usufruct. A usufruct is a form of life interest in the real property.

A usufruct could also be given to more than 1 person at the time. A right of usufruct in Thailand is usually a legal instrument to protect a foreign spouse in case the property is registered on the Thai spouse's name. It enables the foreign spouse to use the property when he survives the Thai spouse and registered owner. The Thai spouse could for example leave the property to the couple's children, if of Thai nationality, but warrants by way of a registered right of usufruct that his or her foreign spouse has the use and benefit of the property during his lifetime. Upon the usufructuary's death the usufruct comes to an end and the Thai registered owner(s) receives full unencumbered ownership again.

The usufructuary under Thai Law has the obligation to maintain the property and take normal care of the property. If the usufructuary fails to do so and the property would lose value as a result of poor management or would become in a poor state of repair the owner has the right to terminate the right of usufruct. The usufructuary is liable for loss of value or destruction of the property unless he can proof that damages are not caused by his fault.

The creation of a usufruct could in certain circumstances be an effective option to protect a foreign spouse during his marriage in Thailand and upon death of his or her Thai spouse, however in some cases a usufruct contract may not be the best option. For example if the Thai spouse registers ownership over land and the couple plans to build a house on it a right of superficies may be a more suitable right.

So jack what is it you don't understand about the Usufruct agreement that does not state that I cannot live in the house that I built on the land that I bought which I gifted to my wife but made an usufruct agreement with until my death?
Can you point out to me where it states that my wife can go to the land office and nullify said agreement or make it void at any time?

It's quite simple Jamie, if the land office thinks the usufruct is an attempt to circumvent the property laws they have the power to void it.

In the event of a nasty divorce that goes to court, the land is legally her personal property and the usufuct is preventing her from doing with her property as she wants. the Judge would void it.

As Jim pointed out, thousands of farangs go to great lengths to set up companies to buy a house, why would they do so if all they needed was a 200 baht usufuct?

It may give you some protection if she dies, but not if the inheritor challenges it. It is not a right to build or reside. It is a right to use and take the fruits of the land, agriculture or resource. All functions which farangs are barred from doing.

but if it makes you feel better, have a good long look at your name on the chanote and dream away.....