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Ben Masada 213

If that were true, you could accept Christian belief without adopting it yourself. And I haven't seen where that's the case in your posting history here. I do see a lot of denial of even the most central and uncontested of Christian beliefs and obtuse rounds of questioning of the most central Christian concepts ("What salvation?" etc).

Killing and stealing and 50-eyes-for-an-eye justice is also forbidden in Judaism, but you never let that stop you.

You're not going to get banned, dude. Libeling Christianity is another day in the office around here, and you're just another mouthpiece of the hit squad with a patch on your arm. You belong here more than I do.

How on earth can one adopt the beliefs of another when they contradict those of his own? That's absolutely destitute of logic. You mention the Christian concept of salvation, for instance. Give me a reason why I should give up the Scriptural concept according to the Tanach to adopt the Christian concept that goies against it? Jesus himself declared that salvation comes from the Jews, according to John 4:22, and not from one among the Jews. Then, we have that "Only through his own fault must one die," and not one for another. (Jer. 31:30) Any one can see that the Christian concept of salvation by one for all, was born in the mind of Paul.

Ben

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Ben Masada 213

I am sorry but you are wrong. Or at least we may be speaing of different things. God is as real to me as he was to moses and abraham and the others of the old testament. He appears as light, as a human being, and in any form he choses becaus ehe is IN allthings..

Of course this (what humans can experience of god) is not the totality of god, or even the essence of god.

God is matter, energy, spirit, consciousness, and can appear to humans in any of those forms, or all of them at once. The old testament makes this clear. Now some individual writers in the bible may differ. Each is influenced and constrained by their own experience of/with god, but i dont think moses or abraham would agree with you that there was nothing physical about god.

MAny hebrew /jewish people in the old testament walked with god, not just metaphorically, but physically, and god interacted with them and their environment physically; eg parting the red sea, providing manna, appearing as a burning bush etc. I agree wigth christ that "worship" of god requires a spiritual relationship with him A recognition of gods spirit within us and around us, but that does not mean that god does not have, or cannot take, physical form. It is. however. on a spiritual level (within us ) that most peole connect to and relate to the peresence of god. Apparently a comparative few connect to and relate to the physical aspects of god.

I dont know why that is so. To me it is incomprehensible that all humans are not connected to god on a physical level as well as a spiritual one. God is with me, as he was with Daniel when he entered the lions den, or shadrak michak and abednigo in the fiery furnace.

Yes, you are quite right: We have been wasting our time speaking about different things that have nothing to do with each other. You are too anthropomorphic to my taste. But before we part, let me tell you something about God. According to Deuteronomy 4:15,16, "We saw no form at all on the day the Lord spoke to us at Horeb from the midst of the fire. That's why we must strictly be on our guard not to degrade ourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure whether it be in the form of a man or a woman." It means that God, according to Jesus himself, is pure Spirit. He can appear in the form of anything, according to the mental disposition of man in a dream or vision. (Num. 12:6) And God is not matter. Matter is composed of atoms. Were God composed of atoms, He could never be said to be absolutely One. Perhaps you have absolutely no idea of the Jewish concept of God. If you feel embarrassed to learn from a modern Jew, try to learn from Jesus. But not from those who have interpolated strange words in the lips of Jesus.

Roy, we were not created in the image of God because God does not have an image for us to have been created in His image. (Deut. 4:15,16) We were created in the image of His attributes. It is, therefore, by way of God's attributes in us that God keeps in controle of the universe. (Gen. 1:26) Now, to develop those attributes in us is all that life is about. (Gen. 1:28) I am not implying that God cannot control the universe without us; but that He shares with us the performance of that task.

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Ben Masada 213

1- Hebrew is a dead language.... what it says and means in the book has not changed ....what it meant a 1000 years ago... is still what it means today.....

to interpret that into a growing dynamic language like English is a rough one...way to many different meanings to words depending on cultural background (where you grew up) to really get a clear picture of what is being said..

if you really wanted to read where the old testament came from....learn Hebrew my friend....

Hey "Me", what are you talking about? Hebrew is a dead language!!! Hebrew is spoken by more than seven million people on earth. Are you implying that I speak a dead language?

Ben

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ben Masada

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Ben Masada 213

I see everyone skipping over the "God created man in his own image" part. I get some people here speculate the passage refers to our spirit, not our physical form. However, that statement sounds wrong to me from both points of view. The physical part is obvious (or should be to all here). The spirit part is only slightly less obvious though. In what way are we like an all-powerful god? We can't even begin to comprehend what it would be like to have omnipotence. Our nature is deeply rooted into what we are, which is partly our physical form, even if the spirit can migrate its carnal form. If it means we are in God's image in terms of more abstract concepts like love, hope, etc, that's equally weird. Anyone have a good explanation for how are we in the image of an all-mighty god?

Hey, Ranrod, here, IMHO, is the secret about that text of God having created man in His image.

PERSONIFICATION OF ATTRIBUTES - GENESIS 1:26

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over... the whole earth."

The above passage of Genesis has been for years the trump card in the hands of Trinitarians to drop at the right time in the assumed thought that it will guarantee them to clean up the table, so to speak. Well, let them think again, because I have news. It's no longer that easy.

Elohim is incorporeal, and incorporeality reflects no image. But then again, how to harmonize the use of the pronouns in the plural form? The attributes of God, which are part of His essence, were impersonately involved in the formation of man.

Bear in mind that only in the creation of man was the statement issued: To make man in God's image. Since God has no visible image, and man does, it's only obvious that man's image would be according to God's attributes. Therefore, His attributes in a relative portion, were the active agent in the formation of man.

Now, it's imperative to focus on the pronouns used by the sacred writer, since the pronouns are anyways what Trinitarians use to think they have made their day. "Let US make MAN in OUR image and likeness. And let THEM have dominion over everything on earth."

Now, focus on the word MAN. It is in the singular form. Nevertheless, the purpose is for THEM to dominate the earth. If THEM were a reference to man, a clarification would be in order to explain the discrepancy in the Grammar. I mean, that it would be a reference to all men. This lack of clarification was not a lapse of the author, but intentional will to direct our minds to the attributes of God, which took part in the formation of man.

It's interesting and just convenient for Trinitarians to rapidly refer "us" and "our" to God Himself and hide any word of explanation on the plural pronoun "them," which could not be a reference to man. I hope they do not do this on purpose because it would be spiritual cruelty to hide the truth.

I hope we have settled this issue. Since "them" is not a reference to man but to the attributes of God, it's only obvious that "us" and "our" are not references to God Himself but to His attributes. Therefore, the Creator of the Universe is He Who has dominion over the whole of the Universe through man by way of His attributes.

Conclusion:

It's more than obvious that Israel could not uphold the banner of absolute Monotheism in God, and start the Scriptures with statements of plurality in God. The whole issue therefore, was personification of attributes.

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Ben Masada 213

And to contradict that (I love the Bible!), Amos had a vision of God "standing on a wall with a plumbline in His hand".

So there's God's physical body. Anything that's standing and holding something in its hand has got to be pretty close to human. Of course God may have just been projecting the appearance of a human in order to visually make a point about messed up Israel has become. Did I mention I love the Bible? Something for everyone in there.

You have proved that love has nothing to do with knowledge. Yes, you have said twice that you love the Bible. IMHO, love develops as a result of knowledge and not knowledge from love. Does it mean that, whatever is seen in a dream or vision is supposed to be how it was seen in the dream? Once I had dream of a cow flying. Since then, I have never seen a cow flying. Metaphorical language is the name. God has no physical body. Jesus himself said that God is pure Spirit and there is no corporeality in spirits. (John 4:24)

I don't know what you mean by how messy has Israel become, but whatever you mean, Jeremiah says that of the other nations, the Lord will eventually make an end of them, but of the messy Israel, He will only chastise as we deserve. That's in Jeremiah 46:28.

Ben

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ben Masada

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Mr Walker 3,010

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Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Yes, you are quite right: We have been wasting our time speaking about different things that have nothing to do with each other. You are too anthropomorphic to my taste. But before we part, let me tell you something about God. According to Deuteronomy 4:15,16, "We saw no form at all on the day the Lord spoke to us at Horeb from the midst of the fire. That's why we must strictly be on our guard not to degrade ourselves by fashioning an idol to represent any figure whether it be in the form of a man or a woman." It means that God, according to Jesus himself, is pure Spirit. He can appear in the form of anything, according to the mental disposition of man in a dream or vision. (Num. 12:6) And God is not matter. Matter is composed of atoms. Were God composed of atoms, He could never be said to be absolutely One. Perhaps you have absolutely no idea of the Jewish concept of God. If you feel embarrassed to learn from a modern Jew, try to learn from Jesus. But not from those who have interpolated strange words in the lips of Jesus.

Ben

Thanks for that advice Ben

What you seem to be saying is that god is no mtre than a concept/ visualisation in the perception /minds of humans.That he has absolutely no physical existence or reality at all. Well that is wrong and logically silly. It makes god nothing more than a metaphysical dream,

Certainly an aspect of god is the spirit. His spirit may well be perceived by man as a thought/concept etc (like the concept of a human spirit or soul),but even it has a physical power. It can b e felt by a human. it can transform a human, and it can heal a human. But god is more than a non material being. God has the ability to actually change the physical world (unless you think all those old hebrew peoples were simplyy hallucinating the physical presence of god. Ie that the fires, voices, manna, parting of the sea etc., were not actually happening but only perceived to be happening.

A non physical/ non material being cant transform matter and energy or take a variety of shapes. It has no ability to do so, no matter what you believe. I would go so far as to say that such a being has no actual existence at all and could never be known, only dreamt of or conceptualised /created in human minds.

Thus, at least a part of god must exist in physical form in order to do physical things. To speak to create to destroy etc., Other wise what youu are saying is that amodern jew(you) reall oly sees god as a creation of mankind. Something that exists via the mind of man rather than in an insdependent form Something that can only be believed in, not known. That god really does nothing and ahs no existence outside of the perceptions of mankind.

Or you have a metaphysical (and impossible) belief that something non corporeal can physically influence the corporeal in some way.

Yes god is not anthropomorhic. Yes, humans tend to think of god as physically like them, which is wrong but understandable. Yes one can't make an idol of th e r real nture of god and yes such idols can mislead man into a false understanding of the nature of god Yes god is one But so is a human being one, and yet we have a physical aspect, a spiritual aspect of self awareness, and an aspect of energy or vitality or life. God has those aspects as well, but his physicality is far different to our own. His self awareness/ spirit/ soul and vitality or energy, however, are very similar.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Mr Walker

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Ben Masada 213

What you seem to be saying is that god is no mtre than a concept/ visualisation in the perception /minds of humans.That he has absolutely no physical existence or reality at all. Well that is wrong and logically silly. It makes god nothing more than a metaphysical dream,

Certainly an aspect of god is the spirit. His spirit may well be perceived by man as a thought/concept etc (like the concept of a human spirit or soul),but even it has a physical power. It can b e felt by a human. it can transform a human, and it can heal a human. But god is more than a non material being. God has the ability to actually change the physical world (unless you think all those old hebrew peoples were simplyy hallucinating the physical presence of god. Ie that the fires, voices, manna, parting of the sea etc., were not actually happening but only perceived to be happening.

A non physical/ non material being cant transform matter and energy or take a variety of shapes. It has no ability to do so, no matter what you believe. I would go so far as to say that such a being has no actual existence at all and could never be known, only dreamt of or conceptualised /created in human minds.

Thus, at least a part of god must exist in physical form in order to do physical things. To speak to create to destroy etc., Other wise what youu are saying is that amodern jew(you) reall oly sees god as a creation of mankind. Something that exists via the mind of man rather than in an insdependent form Something that can only be believed in, not known. That god really does nothing and ahs no existence outside of the perceptions of mankind.

Or you have a metaphysical (and impossible) belief that something non corporeal can physically influence the corporeal in some way.

Yes god is not anthropomorhic. Yes, humans tend to think of god as physically like them, which is wrong but understandable. Yes one can't make an idol of th e r real nture of god and yes such idols can mislead man into a false understanding of the nature of god Yes god is one But so is a human being one, and yet we have a physical aspect, a spiritual aspect of self awareness, and an aspect of energy or vitality or life. God has those aspects as well, but his physicality is far different to our own. His self awareness/ spirit/ soul and vitality or energy, however, are very similar.

Right. God has absolutely no physical existence. You think so because, as a Gentile, you worship what you do not understand. That's Jesus who said that, not I. And he added that's the difference between Gentiles and Jews; for the Jews do understand what they worship. (John 4:22)

I think I have told you here before, that God has all the power in Himself to effect or affect anything in man and in nature; but He won't do it just because you wish things should be the way you expect them to be.

We are the physical part of God to do physical things. Other physical things that happen in the universe, which we refer to as a "work of God" are doing according to God's natural laws.

As far as I am concerned, though, God is not a simple concept as angels are. While therse are mere emanations, God is a divine Spiritual Being Who, by His endless work of creation, the universe has come about.

God is absolutely One; human being is not. God is not a compound of anything. A human being is composed of atoms. And to be a soul is not part of the vitality of God; but of man only. When man was formed from the dust of the earth, God breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul. That's in Genesis 2:7.

Ben

Edited October 6, 2012 by Ben Masada

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Roy Perry 254

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

in God's Image God Made us and Creative us

thier both have the sane Hebrew root

G2936ktízō – properly, create, which applies only to God who alone can make what was "not there before" (Latin, ex nihilo, out of nothing, J.Thayer); figuratively to begin ("found"), especially what is habitable or useful.

Definition: I create, form, shape, make, always of God.

words can have many meaning not just one because you want to mean what what you say but that does make it so

God is more than I know and less than i understand or know

with love and a holy kiss Roy

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sickpuppy 150

i didn't see the vast problem in the OP (re: let there be light) the sun is just a thing that brings light into our world. the light already exists. in a similar way a dam of water is held back by a wall, all you need is to poke a little hole in the wall to get the water pouring through.. /shrug?

I see everyone skipping over the "God created man in his own image" part.

i'm not sure on this one either, if it's all [merely] physically based then it probably has something to do with the mans creation described in the way that 'and the man became a living soul' (nephesh?)

there was another school of thought has it the man prototype already existed, and the elohim were all about 'making this existing man become like us' [in our own image]

there was another part here debating if God had a physical body or not? ..i couldn't help but think of Abraham inviting the three travellers to his house for dinner (and learning one of them was the one true God?)

all i know is, the more i learn about the world the more i go back to the bible and understand why it's telling us the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God, and why friendship with the world is enmity to it, why its ways are not my ways, and the beginning of wisdom is to fear and respect it and to depart from evil is to understand it..

/more shrugging

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Yamato 13,197

How on earth can one adopt the beliefs of another when they contradict those of his own? That's absolutely destitute of logic. You mention the Christian concept of salvation, for instance. Give me a reason why I should give up the Scriptural concept according to the Tanach to adopt the Christian concept that goies against it? Jesus himself declared that salvation comes from the Jews, according to John 4:22, and not from one among the Jews. Then, we have that "Only through his own fault must one die," and not one for another. (Jer. 31:30) Any one can see that the Christian concept of salvation by one for all, was born in the mind of Paul.

Ben

Please read more carefully, that's not what I said. I said you could accept Christian belief without adopting it yourself. You should be able to understand what someone is referring to when they use the word Salvation even if it doesn't represent your own beliefs. I can understand your beliefs without sharing them; it's not that difficult.

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Ben Masada 213

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

in God's Image God Made us and Creative us

thier both have the sane Hebrew root

G2936ktízō – properly, create, which applies only to God who alone can make what was "not there before" (Latin, ex nihilo, out of nothing, J.Thayer); figuratively to begin ("found"), especially what is habitable or useful.

Definition: I create, form, shape, make, always of God.

words can have many meaning not just one because you want to mean what what you say but that does make it so

God is more than I know and less than i understand or know

with love and a holy kiss Roy

God does not have an image for man to have been created in. The word image in Genesis 1:26 is a metaphorical reference to the attributes of God which, in lesser or relative portion, God granted to man, so that man, through those attributes of God, shared control over all things throughout the universe. According to Deut. 4:15,16, the Israelites did not see any form at all on the day the Lord spoke to them at Horeb from the midst of the fire. So, they were strictly warned not to degrade themselves by fashioning an idol to represent Him whether it be in the form of a man or of a woman."

Ben

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Ben Masada 213

i didn't see the vast problem in the OP (re: let there be light) the sun is just a thing that brings light into our world. the light already exists. in a similar way a dam of water is held back by a wall, all you need is to poke a little hole in the wall to get the water pouring through.. /shrug?

i'm not sure on this one either, if it's all [merely] physically based then it probably has something to do with the mans creation described in the way that 'and the man became a living soul' (nephesh?)

there was another school of thought has it the man prototype already existed, and the elohim were all about 'making this existing man become like us' [in our own image]

there was another part here debating if God had a physical body or not? ..i couldn't help but think of Abraham inviting the three travellers to his house for dinner (and learning one of them was the one true God?)

all i know is, the more i learn about the world the more i go back to the bible and understand why it's telling us the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God, and why friendship with the world is enmity to it, why its ways are not my ways, and the beginning of wisdom is to fear and respect it and to depart from evil is to understand it..

/more shrugging

Hey Timestamp, I would like to share with you my understanding of what happened to Abraham when he invited the three to have dinner. Abraham was a prophet and, according to Numbers 12:6, "If there is a prophet among you, I'll make Myself known to him in a dream or vision." That's exactly what happened that day. Abraham sat down outside his tent under a sycamore tree and, worried about the condition of Sara as unable to have children, and his divine promise of an heir, and also worried about his nephew Lot in Sodom, he fell into a slumber. Then, he had a dream/vision. In a dream, everything is possible, even to see God and live. That's what happened that day. There is no reason to think of God in anthropomorphic terms.

Ben

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Ben Masada 213

Please read more carefully, that's not what I said. I said you could accept Christian belief without adopting it yourself. You should be able to understand what someone is referring to when they use the word Salvation even if it doesn't represent your own beliefs. I can understand your beliefs without sharing them; it's not that difficult.

You do? How can you understand my beliefs if you insist that I could accept the beliefs of Christianity without adopting them? To accept is tantamount to adopting. Unless you state clearly that I should accept them as a Christian belief and not Jewish. Thus, there is no problem. More than to accept as your right to them, I endorse that you have all the right in the world to.