There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?

Matthew 9:10-13 10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Doug

Neither.

Okay, let's try again.

Luke 18:10-14 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Which of the two men compares with the younger son in the parable of the prodigal son?Which one compares with the older son?

Doug

Is the publican a Jew or a Gentile?

One thing I want to point out again. The reason they are called 'Jews' is because they are house of Judah.

House of Judah is NOT all 12 tribes.

The northern 10 tribes are the house of Israel.

These names get all mixed up with each other, but it's important to know who we are talking about.

There are two groups of Jews mentioned in the account below, publicans and sinners, and Pharisees. Which group do you think would best fit the role of the younger son in the parable?

Matthew 9:10-13 10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Doug

Neither.

Okay, let's try again.

Luke 18:10-14 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Which of the two men compares with the younger son in the parable of the prodigal son?Which one compares with the older son?

Doug

Is the publican a Jew or a Gentile?

One thing I want to point out again. The reason they are called 'Jews' is because they are house of Judah.

House of Judah is NOT all 12 tribes.

The northern 10 tribes are the house of Israel.

These names get all mixed up with each other, but it's important to know who we are talking about.

Until the Babylonian exile, they were separate. After the return, people of all the tribes were considered Jews. The prophecy of the two sticks becoming one stick in Ezekiel 37 probably represents this process.

Easton's Bible Dictionary

The name derived from the patriarch Judah, at first given to one belonging to the tribe of Judah or to the separate kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 16:6; 25:25; Jeremiah 32:12; 38:19; 40:11; 41:3), in contradistinction from those belonging to the kingdom of the ten tribes, who were called Israelites.

During the Captivity, and after the Restoration, the name, however, was extended to all the Hebrew nation without distinction (Esther 3:6, 10; Dan. 3:8, 12; Ezra 4:12; 5:1, 5).

Originally this people were called Hebrews (Genesis 39:14; 40:15; Exodus 2:7; 3:18; 5:3; 1 Samuel 4:6, 9, etc.), but after the Exile this name fell into disuse. But Paul was styled a Hebrew (2 Corinthians 11:22; Philippians 3:5).

The history of the Jewish nation is interwoven with the history of Palestine and with the narratives of the lives of their rulers and chief men. They are now [1897] dispersed over all lands, and to this day remain a separate people, "without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image [R.V. `pillar,' marg. `obelisk'], and without an ephod, and without teraphim" (Hosea 3:4). Till about the beginning of the present century [1800] they were everywhere greatly oppressed, and often cruelly persecuted; but now their condition is greatly improved, and they are admitted in most European countries to all the rights of free citizens. In 1860 the "Jewish disabilities" were removed, and they were admitted to a seat in the British Parliament. Their number in all is estimated at about six millions, about four millions being in Europe.

There are three names used in the New Testament to designate this people,

(1.) Jews, as regards their nationality, to distinguish them from Gentiles.

(2.) Hebrews, with regard to their language and education, to distinguish them from Hellenists, i.e., Jews who spoke the Greek language.

(3.) Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God. "To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone."

Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language

(n.) Originally, one belonging to the tribe or kingdom of Judah; after the return from the Babylonish captivity, any member of the new state; a Hebrew; an Israelite.

Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

In the 6th century B.C.E., the kingdom of Israel was conquered by Assyria and the ten tribes were exiled from the land (II Kings 17), leaving only the tribes in the kingdom of Judah remaining to carry on Abraham's heritage. These people of the kingdom of Judah were generally known to themselves and to other nations as Yehudim (Jews), and that name continues to be used today.

In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word "Indian" to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. However, this technically inaccurate usage is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it, and is therefore used throughout this site.

This is kind of interesting from an old time Bible preacher. I had shorten it quite a bit to fit it on here unfortunately.

It is very important for every student of prophecy, in fact, it is absolutely necessary for their understanding, to see the distinction the Bible makes between the Jews and the other Tribes of Israel.

The Bible Distinction Between"The House of Israel"and"The House of Judah"Radio Address by F. F. Bosworth

RADIO ADDRESSBy Evangelist F. F. BosworthToday there is much teaching on the subject of prophecy, and it is important that there should be. It is very important for every student of prophecy, in fact, it is absolutely necessary for their understanding, to see the distinction the Bible makes between the Jews and the other Tribes of Israel. Until this distinction between the two Houses, Israel and Judah, as that distinction is taught in the Scriptures, is clearly understood, a great portion of the Bible will remain a closed book. This clear distinction between the two Houses is never lost sight of in the Bible, and until it is understood, it is impossible to follow the truth of Scripture on this subject, or to understand the Bible story of Israel. Many people today suppose that where Israel is mentioned in the Bible, it means the Jews. We read articles and hear sermons today in which the writers and speakers refer to "Abraham, the Jew." Isaac and Jacob are often called Jews, the most absurd and impossible thing as we shall see from the Scriptures. It is a common thing today to hear ministers and writers use such phrases as the following:"The Jews in Egypt""The Exodus of the Jews""The Jews at Mt. Sinai""When the Jews entered Canaan""12 Tribes of the Jews""Abraham, the Jew"Thousands of Christians use the terms "Israel," and "Jew," "The House of Israel," "The House of Judah," employing these and similar words and phrases as if they always referred to the same people. They do not know that according to Biblical history, there were no "Jews" known as such until about 15 centuries after Abraham was born, and until 600 years after the death of Moses.

Most Hebrews Not JewsBeginning with Adam, we have the start, not only of chronology, but of the genealogical tables of the Bible. There are ten generations from Adam to Noah, and ten generations from Shem (Noah's son) to Abraham. Eber or Heber was the fourth in generation from Shem. All of the descendants of Heber were Hebrews. Abraham was six generations later. He, therefore, was a Hebrew. The Hebrews were not Jews, because Judah, from whom the Jews descended, was not yet born. When the time came that there were Jews on the earth, of course, they also were Hebrews - a very small portion of them - but the great mass of Hebrews were not Jews, and are not today.To call Abraham a Jew would make him a descendant of Isaac's yet unborn grandson Judah. The Tribe of Judah had no existence on earth during the time of Abraham and Isaac.

Descendants Do Not Name Their Ancestors Abraham was the father of Isaac; Isaac was the father of Jacob; Jacob, who was later named "Israel," became the father of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphthali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin. The 12 sons each became the head of a Tribe called after his own personal name. From Judah, the fourth son of Jacob, are descended the Jews; the word "Jew" being simply an abbreviation of the name "Judah." A glance at the geneology will show that it is impossible for Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, to have been Jews. Only the descendants of Judah - those coming after him, could be called by his name - not his ancestors. No one had ever been named "Judah" until more than 200 years after Abraham was named.

Israel and Judah Separate NationsThe 12 Tribes of Israel became two nations, with widely different destinies, until the time when they will be united in the coming age. (Ezek. 37:22) The distinction or separation between Judah and Israel was foreshadowed at an early date. We read in Psalm 114:1, 2 "When Israel went out of Egypt...Judah was His sanctuary and Israel His dominion." In Samuel's day, the two Houses, Judah and Israel, were numbered separately. In I Samuel 11:8 we read "And when he numbered them in Bezek, the children of Israel were three hundred thousands and the men of Judah thirty thousand." Notice that even at this early date, Israel numbered ten times more than Judah. The Numerical contrast today is very much greater. The Bible tells us that the Jews would be "few in number," but it tells us that Israel would be as the sands of the sea for multitudes (Hosea 1:10). Until the year 975 B.C. the descendants of Jacob formed one nation. But they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen" (Jer. 33:24).In the year 975 B.C. at the death of King Solomon, the nation was divided into two nations. In II Chronicles 10:12-14 we are told that when Solomon died, and his son Rehoboam came to the throne, the ten tribes rebelled, and under Jereboam, formed the NORTHERN NATION; while Judah, along with Benjamin and certain Levites, formed the SOUTHERN NATION.The NORTHERN NATION, which consisted of the Ten Tribes, was known under the following national titles: Israel, Ephraim, Isaac, Samaria, The House of Israel, and The Ten Tribes.

THE DIVISION WAS OF GODThe SOUTHERN NATION, which consisted of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, was known as "Judah," "The House of Judah" or "The Jews." The capital of the SOUTHERN NATION was Jerusalem. If I had more time, I would quote you the Scriptures which show that this division of the Tribes of Israel into two nations was Divinely Predetermined, Divinely Predicted, Divinely Emphasized, Divinely Maintained, Divinely Accomplished, Divinely Explained, Divinely Approved. The Scriptures show that this division into Two Kingdoms had behind it and controlling it, the fore-ordaining eternal councils of God; and it took place for great, beneficent, well-defined and Divine reasons.

In Jeremiah the 3rd chapter, Israel is five times called "Backsliding Israel," a term never once applied to Judah, and Judah is four times called "Treacherous Judah," a term not once applied to Israel. I will read you this passage: "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby BACKSLIDING Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also." (Jer. 3:8) Ask those who declare that Israel and Judah are the same people to read that passage, analyzing it in the light of their belief. And there are many such passages showing the clear distinction between Israel and Judah. There are more than 2000 references to Israel in the Bible that have no reference whatever to the Jews. On the other hand, there are more than five hundred references to Judah that have no reference to Israel, and yet there are those continually trying to tell us there is no distinction between Israel and Judah, and continually refer to Israel as Jews, and even change the name of Judah to Israel. It is absurd as to use the words America and England interchangeably.Here is another quotation for them to explain: "Backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah." Make Israel and Judah one and the same people referred to, and the statement becomes ridiculous. The 12 sons of Jacob were Hebrews and Israelites, but they were not Jews. The same may be said of Moses and Aaron, of the people of the Northern Kingdom, of Elijah and Elisha. To avoid confusion over the expression "Israel" it is necessary to determine in which sense it is used in any particular passage, whether it means: (1) "The whole of the Twelve Tribes; (2) Or the House of Judah alone as being a part of the Twelve Tribes; (3) Or the Ten-Tribed Kingdom."

Ten Tribed Israel Never Called JewsNothing can be more unscriptural than to call all Israelites "Jews;" it is as absurd as calling all Americans Californians. Most of Israelites are not Jews because they are the descendants of the other tribes of Israel. There is just as much reason for calling all Israelites "Danites" or "Gadites" or "Ephramites" as there is for calling them Judahites or "Jews." It is just as reasonable to call all "Jews" "Danites" as it is to call all "Danites" "Jews." The term Jew is never used until more than a thousand years after Abraham. It appears for the first time in II Kings 16:6, where we are told that the King of Israel, together with the King of Assyria, made war against the King of Judah. Now since in this passage Israel, one Kingdom, made ware against the Jews, another Kingdom, how can they both be the Jews? The Scriptures never once refer to the Ten-Tribed House of Israel as "The Jews;" neither past, present, nor future. The term "The Jews" is never, in God's Word, applied to the 12 Tribes, collectively, or to the Ten-Tribed House of Israel.In Jeremiah 13:11, nearly 400 years after the tribes were divided by God into the two kingdoms, "The Whole House of Israel" and "The Whole House of Judah" are both spoken of in the same verse, proving that neither House without the other constitutes all of the Lord's chosen people. "The Whole House of Judah" are not all of the Lord's people, and "The Whole House of Israel" are not all of the Lord's people. It takes "The Whole House of Israel" together with "The Whole House of Judah" to make all of God's chosen people; and comparatively few of these are Jews. This text proves conclusively that there is a people called the "Whole House of Israel" of which the "Whole House of Judah" is regarded as neither part nor parcel. The Holy Spirit has never either in Biblical history or prophecy, called the 10 Tribed House of Israel "Jews". They have never been called "Jews" except by uninformed and unscriptural teachers.

Birthright People Are Not JewsThe fact that Jacob's two wives, Leah and Rachel, are spoken of as "building the House of Israel," of necessity divides the immediate household of Jacob into "two families." In Jeremiah 33:24 they are spoken of as "the two families which the Lord hath chosen." The Covenant promise of the BIRTHRIGHT was given to one of these families, and that of the SCEPTRE to the other family. Rachel was to be the mother of "thousands of millions" while Leah was to be the mother of royalty. Genesis 49:10 shows us that Judah represents the SCEPTRE family; and I Chronicles 5:2 tells us "THE BIRTHRIGHT is Joseph's." Never try to apply a BIRTHRIGHT blessing to the Jews. Judah and the Jews were excluded from the BIRTHRIGHT promises, Joseph from the SCEPTRE. The BIRTHRIGHT people are not, and are never in the Scriptures called Jews.In Ezekiel the 37th chapter we are told that "the two sticks" which are still separate, but which are yet to be reunited, represent Judah on the one hand, and Joseph and the "House of Israel" on the other. One of these sticks represents the SCEPTRE people and the other the BIRTHRIGHT people. Judah, the inheritor of the SCEPTRE, is only a half bother to Joseph, the inheritor of the BIRTHRIGHT. The SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT inheritors are "two-families" with different mothers. How could the distinction between the SCEPTRE and the BIRTHRIGHT families Judah and Israel be more emphatic?

Israel Distinct From JudahUnless we see the distinction between the "House of Israel" and the "House of Judah" from the time of the division till the final and glorious reunion of the Two Houses, which will take place at the end of the "latter days," the prophecies concerning Israel cannot be understood. From the time of the division into two kingdoms until now, Judah and Israel have remained absolutely distinct. They were carried into captivity separately, at different times and by different nations, because Israel was taken into captivity by the Assyrians, 721 B.C. (II Kings 17:6); while Judah was carried into captivity 133 years later by the Babylonians 588 B.C. (II Kings 25:21). A portion of Judah returned after 70 years, as had been predicted (Ezra 2:1), but Israel never returned, nor was there any prediction that she would return until the final, glorious, restoration in the near future. All the prophecies were written after the division of the tribes into two nations; and these prophecies give the whole future of Israel as entirely distinct from Judah.The great Jewish historian Josephus, writing from Rome in the year 70 A.D. which was nearly 800 years after Israel was taken into captivity by the Assyrians says: "The entire body of the 10 Tribes are still beyond the Euphrates, an immense multitude not to be estimated by number." It is estimated that there were 50 million in Israel at the time of the division, and this was 800 years later.Rev. Canon Faucett M.A. says in his "Critical and Expository Bible Encyclopedia" The idea that the House of Israel has been amalgamated and incorporated with the "Jews," is one of the most amazing errors in Biblical History. The prophets write of Israel and Judah still being separate people in "the latter days," or the days of the Gospel dispensation. In the 37th chapter of Ezekiel is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. God promising to unite the stick of Joseph, representing the House of Israel with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick in His hand. This and many other Scriptures require that Israel and Judah be kept separate until this union which has not yet taken place.According to the prophet Hosea, the House of Israel in the last days was to become as the sands of the sea for number, before their reunion with the House of Judah, and their return, representatively, to Palestine (Hosea 1:10, 11). Also Jeremiah writes: "When ye be multiplied and increased in the land in those days...the House of Judah shall walk with the House of Israel and they shall come together out of the land of the north, to the land that I gave for an inheritance unto your Fathers" (Jer. 3:16-18).In Jeremiah 30:3, 4 we have a prophecy yet to be fulfilled concerning the uniting of the two Houses. Here we read: "For the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of MY PEOPLE Israel and Judah; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah." Here God calls Israel and Judah "My People Israel and Judah." So if Judah, the Jews, are the people of the Lord, then the Lord has a people besides the Jews whom He calls Israel and who are not counted among the Jews.Long before the division took place, Moses, while prophesying unto the seed of Jacob, cried out: "Hear, Lord, the voice of Judah and bring him unto his people: (Deut. 33:7). This plainly shows that Judah was to be separated from his people and finally brought back to them. And the Scriptures tell us that shall not be until at the end of "the last days."No Evidence For Amalgamation TheoryOrthodox Jews, even to this day, know that they do not represent the Ten-Tribed House of Israel. On the day of the Feast of Trumpets and on the Day of Atonement, they include in their prayer Jeremiah 31:20, and pray that Ephraim Israel (the Ten-Tribes) may be united with them. If we had time, we could quote from the testimony of Jewish scholars, and from their literature, showing that they know they are not representatives of the Ten-Tribed House of Israel. We have quotations from the "Jewish Encyclopedia," "The Jewish Religion," "The Jewish Chronicle," Rabbi Gershom, Prof. Neubauer, "The History and Literature of the Israelites," "The Jewish Quarterly Review," etc. The Rabbi Dr. Hertz, of London, says: "People known at present as Jews are descendants of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin...we look forward to the gathering of all the Tribes at some future date." The learned Isaac Leiser says that "The Israelitish nation was left in banishment after the return of the Jews from Babylon." Professor Neubauer wrote: "The hope of the return of the ten tribes has never ceased among the jews in exile." Josephus, a Jew, and loyal to Jewish history and tradition, wrote about 70 A.D. or about 800 years after the captivity of Ten-Tribed Israel as follows: "The 10 Tribes did not return to Palestine; only two Tribes served the Romans after Palestine became a Roman province." Jeremiah prophesied that only they who were taken by Nebuchadnezzar to Babylon were to return. Then the historical fulfillment of that prophecy must see only a return of those taken to Babylon. Both Ezra and Nehemiah testify to the fact that historically only those taken by Nebuchadnezzar to Babylon did return (Ezra Chapter 2: Nehemiah Chapter 7).The return to Palestine of the 10 Tribes at any time in the past is contrary to Kings and Chronicles, contrary to Ezra, Nehemiah, Zechariah, Jerome and Josephus, and to history. In the prophecy that the "Two Sticks," Judah, and the House of Israel will become "one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one King (the Lord Jesus Christ) shall be King to them all" we have Divine proof that the two Houses are still separate, because Christ is not reigning over them as King at the present time.

God divided the Abrahamic promises among Jacob's twelve sons, and when He said through Jacob that Ephraim's "Seed shall become a multitude of nations." He was not referring to the Jews who never have or ever will be "a multitude of nations," God was speaking to the BIRTHRIGHT heirs. The "Nation and a Company of Nations" promised in Gen. 35:11 was a BIRTHRIGHT BLESSING TO BE FULFILLED" in the last days before Christ's Return (Gen. 49:1) to Joseph and his descendants (I Chron. 5:1), none of which are Jews. In Jer. 31:9, God said, "Ephraim is My firstborn," and in Gen. 48:19, Jacob said of Ephraim, "His seed shall become a multitude of nations" - just the opposite of what was said of Judah - "He shall become a remnant." That this promise to Israel was not to Judah is proven by the fact that Judah has never been a multitude of nations, and never will be. The Amalgamation Theory Receives NoSupport From Holy ScriptureThe book of Micah plainly teaches that the Jews who "halted" were to become "A remnant," while Israel "that was cast far off," was to become "a strong nation" (Micah 4:7). The bringing together of these "two families" is to be associated with the Kingdom-Age. Till then, they would be separate. Some errors are slow in dying but this amalgamation-assumption which falsifies hundreds of Scriptures is now only lingering upon its death bed.It is important to notice that neither the Major nor the Minor Prophets appear in the Old Testament until about 200 years after the division of the Twelve Tribes into two nations. What then did they find was the condition of God's chosen race? Was there any sign of amalgamation among them? Not a scintilla. The prophets found them still divided into two nations; as separate as France and Italy, or Britain and America. They had separate Kings, separate administrations, separate national alliances, and of course, separate national titles. The National title of the Ten Tribes was "Israel," or "Ephraim," because the Tribe of Ephraim had become the Tribe of the Birthright owing to the sin of Reuben. We have seen that the national title of the other two tribes was "Judah," a remnant of which were later called "The Jews."It was during this state of affairs that the prophets commenced their ministry - some residing in the territory of Israel, and others in that of Judah. The Prophets addressed these two nations by the names that God gave them - "Israel" being the title which the Northern Nation had decided to retain; and "Judah" being the title which the Southern Nation had decided to assume . Hence we find that all through their writings, whether of warning, of rebuking, or directing, or consoling; and whether their words were historical or prophetical, the prophets recognized the separate condition of the Two Nations, and accordingly addressed them by their chosen and well-known national titles.Ten Tribed Israel a Non-Jewish PeopleThe separation into the Two Nations took place many years before any of the major or minor prophets wrote; therefore, the "Israel" known to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the minor prophets, our Lord, the evangelists, and the apostles, had no Tribe of Judah in it. Israel, as known to all of these writers, was a non-Jewish people. Israel has remained a non-Jewish people to this day. The amalgamation theory is hopelessly discredited in the presence of the Bible. The closing books of Bible history leave Israel and Judah in separation from each other, while Bible prophecy keeps them separated until reconciled and united in the Kingdom-Age, and are dwelling representatively in the Holy Land under the personal reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, their welcomed and Crowned Messiah.Hosea's statement that Israel shall be "as the sand of the sea which cannot be measured nor numbered" is not made concerning Judah (Hosea 1:10). In the first chapter we read "Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel." Did the two nations of captives "gather together" and amalgamate while in the land of their captivities? Did they "together appoint themselves one head" when the small remnant of Judah returned from Babylon? Both Ezra and Nehemiah, who were the historians of the Babylonian return, inform us that this was not the case.

For instance, to apply to the Jews the many Scriptures which require that the descendants of Ephraim shall be "a multitude (or Commonwealth) of Nations" (Gen. 48:19) in these "last days," before the union of the Two Houses, Judah and Israel, would be equivalent to saying that the only "Commonwealth of Nations" on earth today are Jews.The Promise of "A Multitude of Nations" was made to Ephraim, not to Judah.

This is the importance in Galatians, of Paul's point that the covenant, previously ratified in Abraham, to his "seed"(Christ), could not be pre-empted or over charged by a later covenant ratified in law(earthly Israel), but was rather the superior enforceable covenant, now carried in the spirit unto "all" who believe, earthly bloodline no longer relevant("there is not here Jew or Greek").

Paul identified the covenant that was ratified to Abraham with the gospel. "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." [Galatians 3:8]

To be included in the blessing of the covenant is by faith, and is not based on ethnic descent. Belief in God is necessary, not Israelite ancestry. The dispensationalists point to the modern Jewish state as the partial fulfillment of the promises, but that country is not the "Israel of God." According to Paul in Romans 9:6, "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." In 11:17 he described Jews who did not believe as branches broken off from their tree. This implies the Israel to which the promises apply, and to which prophecy applies, is the church, not ethnic Jews, the USA and Britain, or American Indians, etc.

I think Abraham was the first Hebrew (covenant of circumscision.....set apart)

The covenant was made with Abraham before he was circumcised.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11

During the gap in information from 1934 to 1944, it appears Bosworth accepted at least some elements of British Israel theology and left the Alliance church, not to return until 1944, when he was welcomed back into the Alliance, was asked to preach at one of their conventions and along the way publicly apologized for having been in error. While some who follow British Israelism claim that F.F. Bosworth maintained a British Israel view of prophecy until his death, they do not offer any evidence to support this other than radio one sermon by Bosworth, which does not go to the extremes many do with that doctrine.

During the gap in information from 1934 to 1944, it appears Bosworth accepted at least some elements of British Israel theology and left the Alliance church, not to return until 1944, when he was welcomed back into the Alliance, was asked to preach at one of their conventions and along the way publicly apologized for having been in error. While some who follow British Israelism claim that F.F. Bosworth maintained a British Israel view of prophecy until his death, they do not offer any evidence to support this other than radio one sermon by Bosworth, which does not go to the extremes many do with that doctrine.

Doug

I don't think you can come to any reasonable conclusions about who is who.

I don't know what British Israelism is exactly. [British are tribe of Ephraim?]

But, don't you agree that the Christians are Israel?

« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 04:49:56 PM by Molly »

Logged

Doug

I believe Paul, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:" [Philippians 3:3-4]

He was an Israelite, but discounted that, and said he had "no confidence in the flesh," or his lineage, and descent from Abraham. It was of no account whatsoever.

Jesus showed what being a true Israelite means.

John 1:47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

And Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22]

Paul said,

Romans 2:29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Judah means "praise," and here, Paul indicates that those who obtain praise of God, are the real Jews.

Thus the terms "Jew" and "Israel" have a spiritual meaning in the NT. Understanding this is a key to understanding prophecy, which is also shown by Ezekiel's prophecy in Ezekiel 37 about the two sticks becoming one.

In Revelation 7, the 12 tribes of Israel which are sealed represent the church, believers of all races, and nations, who are called in the present age. The are described further in chapter 14, as "they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." [Revelation 14:4-5]

They are "not defiled with women" because they are not false prophets; not meaning their sexual experience literally, but in a figure, or metaphor of being faithful to the truth, and not being deceived. It alludes, I think, to 2 Cor. 11:2-3, where Paul wrote:

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Saying that the Christians of all nations descend from the lost ten tribes is absurd, IMO. There are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, native African, Egyptian, Arab, Iranian, Indian, Nepalese, Indonesian, Maori, -- believers are of all nations and races. They are part of the Israel of God through faith, not through ethnic descent.

He gave Israel the birthright blessings and Judah the scepter [that is, splitting the covenant with Abraham in two].

We know this from OT scripture.

This actually happened physically in the OT, that is, there were people of both houses, and the houses were separated.

And, also the birthright blessings and the scepter worked out physically, as well,-- house of Judah came back from captivity with the scepter, house of Israel went off and multiplied itself all over the world with the birthright blessings and became a no people until Jesus came.

Now on the cross, Jesus has taken the birthright blessings of house of Israel [a.k.a. gentiles] and the scepter of house of Judah [a.k.a. Jews] and put them together [broken down the wall of partition] into one new creation, but this was done spiritually.

THIS is what you are focusing on. The two sticks were combined spiritually on the cross--so now there is neither Jew nor Greek--but one new man in Christ Jesus.

This spiritual man [combination of the spiritual gifts of both houses] is now called the Israel of God.

But, if I could take this a little further--

This new creation man is only given an earnest of his [OT promised] inheritance now, that is, a portion, a downpayment.

When he is given the full inheritance, we will see the manifested sons of God. This is an end time prophecy.

Also, to take it a little further--

As real people are being brought into the covenant, we see the gentiles being brought in first, and the Jews last. This is also based on prophecy from the OT, whcih allows us to identify the gentiles as house of Israel and the Jews as house of Judah. <----- This is the part you don't like because you think it detracts from the spiritual man who is the new creation, and is maybe even irrelevant. But I like it because I'm a literalist who wants to see a beginning, a middle, and an end to the story.

I think Abraham was the first Hebrew (covenant of circumscision.....set apart)

The covenant was made with Abraham before he was circumcised.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11

First Hebrew is Eber.

Circumcision was the sign of of the covenant. The covenant was begun in Abram/Abraham. The nation, against which the word Gentile has any meaning, is Israel- a nation named in Abraham's seed. This nation of which I speak, and it's covenant whether you want to call it Hebrew or Jew or Israelite, or whatever other endless gnat straining we can engage in, began with Abraham. He was the first, the covenant was initiated with him, that person- Abram, Abraham, him....... you kno :o)

I think Abraham was the first Hebrew (covenant of circumscision.....set apart)

The covenant was made with Abraham before he was circumcised.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11

First Hebrew is Eber.

Circumcision was the sign of of the covenant. The covenant was begun in Abram/Abraham. The nation, against which the word Gentile has any meaning, is Israel- a nation named in Abraham's seed. This nation of which I speak, and it's covenant whether you want to call it Hebrew or Jew or Israelite, or whatever other endless gnat straining we can engage in, began with Abraham. He was the first, the covenant was initiated with him, that person- Abram, Abraham, him....... you kno :o)

Yes, I know.

But, Abraham was first circumcised by heart.

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran

--Gen 12

14And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

--Gen 13

1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. 2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15

What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."--Rom 4:3

7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

10And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

11And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance--Gen 15

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. Rom 4:11

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. Gen 17:5

Genesis 17:24

And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

But, if you consider it that, I suppose I could just stop wasting my precious time.

Here is something to consider; in the days of Elijah there was famine in Israel for three years and six months. Jesus mentioned this.

Luke 4:24-26And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

The point that Jesus made, I think, was that a Gentile woman, who was a widow, received the benefits of caring for Elijah during the famine. She possessed a cruse of oil that did not fail, and a barrel of meal that did not run out, while she looked after Elijah. Jesus was pointing out to the Jews that a Gentile woman, not an Israelite, was blessed.

Some see in this an analogy with the church, which possesses the Spirit of God. The Spirit is represented by the prophet Elijah. The oil and the bread both represent the Spiritual nourishment of the church, which is scarce throughout the present age. The Gospel was preached to the Gentiles, and the Spirit has been sustained among the Gentile saints, over the centuries, during a time of spiritual famine. The three years and six months represent the whole age of the church, since the apostolic age, when there is a famine of "hearing the words of the LORD." [Amos 8:11] The prophecy of the two witnesses also applies. The duration of their ministry corresponds; 1,260 days.

The spiritual famine has led to tens of thousands of sects and denominations where the saints are scattered.

The incident when the woman's son died, and was revived by Elijah, is thought to foreshadow the resurrection of Christ. This interpretation tends to support the idea that most Christians are not remnants of the lost ten tribes, but are of Gentile origin.

But, if you consider it that, I suppose I could just stop wasting my precious time.

Here is something to consider; in the days of Elijah there was famine in Israel for three years and six months. Jesus mentioned this.

Luke 4:24-26And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

The point that Jesus made, I think, was that a Gentile woman, who was a widow, received the benefits of caring for Elijah during the famine. She possessed a cruse of oil that did not fail, and a barrel of meal that did not run out, while she looked after Elijah. Jesus was pointing out to the Jews that a Gentile woman, not an Israelite, was blessed.

Some see in this an analogy with the church, which possesses the Spirit of God. The Spirit is represented by the prophet Elijah. The oil and the bread both represent the Spiritual nourishment of the church, which is scarce throughout the present age. The Gospel was preached to the Gentiles, and the Spirit has been sustained among the Gentile saints, over the centuries, during a time of spiritual famine. The three years and six months represent the whole age of the church, since the apostolic age, when there is a famine of "hearing the words of the LORD." [Amos 8:11] The prophecy of the two witnesses also applies. The duration of their ministry corresponds; 1,260 days.

The spiritual famine has led to tens of thousands of sects and denominations where the saints are scattered.

The incident when the woman's son died, and was revived by Elijah, is thought to foreshadow the resurrection of Christ. This interpretation tends to support the idea that most Christians are not remnants of the lost ten tribes, but are of Gentile origin.

Doug

Molly, I apologize. I really wasn t trying to single you out. I am gnat strainer too at times :o). It does seem to me that sometimes, when we are trying to reach the spiritual core of things, we all get tripped up in details. Maybe not meaningless details- but if I can't hear what someone is saying because they don't see evry detail the way I see it- I am wasting my time and theirs. To all, please understand that I have no intention of demanding that anyone see my point of view. I just present it for the purpose of discussion and mutual edification, without apology, but hopefully with some humility. When things are presented as facts- we all have the right to present an alternate view, within the rules of the forum.

I don't know what the contradiction seems to be..... I think you are all saying the same thing. Molly is presenting the natural literal, although she is aware of the spiritual. I don't think one negates the other; one just magnifies the other. Blessings...

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

I don't know what the contradiction seems to be..... I think you are all saying the same thing. Molly is presenting the natural literal, although she is aware of the spiritual. I don't think one negates the other; one just magnifies the other. Blessings...

What about "He does away with the first to establish the second", and Hagar vs. Sarah. We all talk about patterns and such, why does the pattern fail here? Putting new wine into old wineskins.

What I'm saying is, the natural IS the pattern for the spiritual. The "stones" (scriptures) are split to allow the life of the Spirit to come out. The natural is as the bones, the spiritual is as the (celestial) flesh He puts upon those bones. One is the foundation, one is the building that "comes forth", as a son comes forth from the womb. It takes both to have the full counsel of God, which is why Jesus told John that both baptisms were necessary to fulfill all righteousness.

Things are not "done away with" as we think of the meaning of those words, but rather split or divided to bring forth more life, just like cell division, or just like a seed being opened. As in a seed, that which is "done away with" becomes part of the foundation (goes back into the earth) that feeds or "lifts" the new life (son) as a footstool lifts the feet. The waters (waters below the firmament) of judgment in Noah's day lifted (again as a footstool, ie. the outer court servant realm) up the new life (His judgments are unto victory) being brought forth. In the Hebrew, the words for foundation, helpmeet, wife, all have related thoughts behind them and all are as a "lesser glory" ie. servant realm.

When Jesus walked upon the waters below the firmament (letter/natural realm), it was as the Spirit (firmament) walking upon the Word to fulfill it. What is "adversarial" to our flesh as the law is, fulfilled in the Spirit, becomes the firm foundation to us. Which is why it says to agree with your adversary while you are in the way with him, because life comes out of death, as the son comes out of a "split" seed.

The law (body of flesh/old wineskin) could not/cannot contain the new wine, as in a SPLIT (death of the veil that was Jesus's flesh) had to occur, because it was a covering like a seed's covering. Unless a seed fall to the ground and die, it cannot bring forth much fruit. And, Hagar and her son also received blessings from the Lord. My Blessings...

« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 04:45:54 PM by Cardinal »

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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor