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Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

Originally Posted by Daniel Y

I still don't understand why the bees would not move up into the med.

It is not the bars it is the foundation. It is not their foundation and it smells different. Again, you were limited because you cannot pull up a deep frame into a medium box. It is crazy but you can do the opposite, pull up a medium frame into a deep box and then you might have had a configuration more like Michael P.
Daniel, it is not your beekeeping it is your limitation with the equipment you had starting out as a back yard beekeeper. We all had this problem because we didn't learn soon enough the benefits of using all the same equipment. It don't matter if it is all deeps or all mediums, you choose. Mediums are lighter but the equivalent equipment costs more. So make your selection based on these two parameters.

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

this is all great stuff. thanks especially to walt and michael for the willingness to help us less experienced folks along.

dan, i was in a similar situation this year, in that all i had was foundation to give my establishing colonies.

i chose not to use syrup, because we have plentiful forage here, and i believe natural forage is healthier for the bees. plus, i didn't want to 'confuse' the bees as to the timing of the flows here in terms of when to brood up and down.

but i saw pretty much the same thing you did. they went from making a lot of new wax, to not making any more and just filling up what they had, and then swarming.

journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

Originally Posted by Acebird

Here we see eye to eye.

We differ here because we have different goals. Splitting is a way for a back yard beekeeper to increase colony numbers and keep colony populations down to a manageable size. What for you might say? You get the pollination services of the bees, some honey and get less resistance from neighbors around you because you are not intimidated so much by the bees and take better care of the hive. I think a small hive is easier, you may disagree.

Well kiss my grits Ace.

Sure, I can see your point. And understand what you say. I followed that plan for many years. Split the bees before apples, pollinate, and then try to make a honey crop. Average crop was less than 50 pounds. Now long term average is 100. Most of my pollination money went to buying queens and replacement bees. Spent all my hours trying to fix my bees from splitting and pollination and mis-management. Kept small clusters that almost never swarmed...and made just a bit more honey that it took to pay the year's bills.

So my nuc management plan was hatched from that, in an attempt to produce a livable income from my bees in a sustainable way. I find it easier actually, than the old way of splitting and pollinating, and always playing catch-up. Way more fun, too.

It allows easy access to the brood nest, without taking the whole hive apart. A larger area of supers exposed to the brood nest so backfilling must occur over a wider area (not sure how significant this is, but could help in swarm prevention).

You can also use different size supers on it. For example I have two half width supers and a super (10 frame deeps) on it at the moment. The half width supers can also be used as 4 frame Nucs. (Just thinking today that you could fit 3 x 6 frame Nucs.)

The disadvantage is having to have two lids and make a large base (or use two bases). To move it you need a hand truck/trolley/dolly or two people.

Wintering could be an issue in colder climates, but we only have a few days a year below freezing, so it's not a problem. Just move the brood nest hard up against one side.

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

Originally Posted by ralittlefield

Perhaps, but then how do we explain that bees that swarm can be lured into a swarm trap by baiting it with comb drawn by other bees?

The foundation is processed with heat that change some of the chemicals. The comb that you should be using is brood comb not honey comb. So to the bee it is the smell of little baby bees vs a toxic waste dump when compared to foundation.

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

He knows he knows because of his nose. I think there is a certain amount of assuming going on here. Assuming what a bee smells. Assuming why a bee does what it does because of what it smells. Assuming that there is any smell of baby bees left after any length of time. Assuming that bees don't work foundation when there are all sorts of determining factors other than those sited.

Maybe they didn't work the foundation because conditions weren't right. Lack of a nectar flow. Lack of enuf bees at the right stage of growth to provide wax production. Just to name a few.

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

Originally Posted by sqkcrk

Refering to foundation as a toxic waste dump is a gross exageration.

Yes, the problem with written words...
It was a figure of speech. I use foundation myself but I would not use it as a lure in a swarm trap. Nor would I use freshly drawn comb in a swarm trap.
If I were feeding, which I don't do, I would pull up a couple of filled frames below into a box of foundation above to entice the bees (maybe the queen) to go up into the box of foundation and draw it out instead of backfilling the brood nest and swarm. Why would a flow matter if he was feeding? I think it is the smell you don't have to. Most people that I read about pull up filled frames into an empty box of foundation. I had the same problem on my first hive, like most newbies that start off with new "beginner hives", no drawn out comb and you can't pull the deep frame into a medium box even if you know it helps. First you need like equipment and then you need to know it helps. Smell or no smell.

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

The problems with the written word are actually very well known. that is why they test readers for things called "Comprehension". The writer is not responsible for the comprehension level of the reader. just as I am not responsible that Barry could not understand the messages he deleted. I guess Barry thinks nobody should have access to knowledge he can't understand.

On the issue of bees and smell and it's effects on a bees behavior.

Social behavior is one of the primary reasons there is interest in the Honey Bee Gnome. It was one of the reasons it was selected as one of the first things to be mapped.

Foraging is a social behavior. so there is significant interest in how it works and is it genetic.

In the search for genes important for the regulation of division of labor, the foraging (for) gene seemed a promising candidate. In addition to PKG-dependent regulation of the response to food-related stimuli in a variety of organisms, for has been shown to be involved in regulating foraging behavior in both larval and adult Drosophila. (taste and smell ar both food related stimuli)

Also from the same paper
In recent years, the honeybee has emerged as an excellent model for molecular and genetic studies of complex social behaviors. By using the global gene expression methods as well as the candidate gene approach, it is now possible to link the function of genes to social behaviors.

In his book “Sociobiology: the new synthesis”, E.O. Wilson argues that sociality is rooted in biological processes, and hence associated with the function of genes (Wilson 1975). Nevertheless, sociality, like other complex behavioral phenotypes, is difficult to analyze in molecular terms, probably due to its polygenic nature as well as confounding epigenetic factors

polygenic in a nut shell is that several genes or even several genetic behaviors all come together to make a single social behavior. this makes tracking it down to the genes that express it very difficult.
link to a definition of polygenic http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic....com/polygenic

This is a link to the wiki for "epigenetic"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
here is my more common language explanation of it. Genes can change their roll or their significance over time without actually changing the gene. In a way they simply become weaker or stronger in their expression. This is one answer as to why a bee changes jobs over the course of their life time. Certain genes begin to shut down while others become active is one way to look at it. but all the genes have been there all along and they do not change as far as their physical make up. So genes do not morph into some other gene.

Again from the paper.
One model that has recently emerged as promising for sociogenomic studies is the honeybee. This insect, which lives in large social colonies, offers a unique combination of an obligatory social species with a relatively simple nervous system, and a good understanding of its sociobiology. Honeybee researchers can now use an array of genetic and molecular tools such as brain EST database (Whitfield et al. 2002), various cDNA libraries, microarrays (Whitfield et al. 2003), high-resolution genetic maps (Ruppell et al. 2004), RNAi and transgenic technologies (Kimura 2001; Farooqui et al. 2003), and most recently, the honeybee genome

Bold lettering is mine. but it shows that this information or conclusions are a result of many studies having been conducted over many years. Most recently and significantly is the honey bee gnome.

The impact of the gnome and the advancements it has made possible is significant. you will have to look that up on your own.

Again from the paper
Behavioral development in honeybees has been shown to be associated with various physiological and neural processes, (Taste is a neural process)

Genes that are likely involved in the regulation of division of labor have also been identified successfully by the “candidate gene approach” (Social behavior of the bee is not only thought to be genetic. they are identifying the genes)

The effects of cGMP and PKG signaling on behavior can be found in both the sensory and central components of the nervous system. These effects on nervous system function can be either long-term organizational, direct short-term effects on neuronal function, or both (Sensory is sight, smell, taste, feel and hearing)

Induction of feeding behavior is also closely linked to cGMP/PKG signaling in a wide variety of invertebrates.

PKG signaling has been recently implicated in both natural behavioral polymorphisms and social behaviors in fruit flies and honeybees, the details of which are discussed below.

In the search for genes important for the regulation of division of labor, the foraging (for) gene seemed a promising candidate. In addition to PKG-dependent regulation of the response to food-related stimuli in a variety of organisms, for has been shown to be involved in regulating foraging behavior in both larval and adult Drosophila. (this simply makes the case that PKG is in fact connected to foraging behavior)

In honeybees, foraging is not an individual decision but rather is regulated on the colony level, suggesting that in social insects the initiation of food gathering behavior is independent of the physiological state of individual colony members

The above presents a problem. If foraging is on a colony level and independent of the physiological state of the bee. is ti really genetic. Well here is where it gets tricky. It basically comes down to a colony wide stimulus of a gene. which may happen via pheromones.

The allelic variants in Drosophila suggest that variations in behavior are due, at least in part, to differences in the expression levels of for, which can be translated to differences in PKG activity levels (Osborne et al. 1997). We cloned a for ortholog from the Western honeybees Apis mellifera (termed Amfor after A. mellifera foraging), and showed that the protein encoded by this gene is more than 80% similar to the Drosophila for gene.

Basically foraging is a result of how much this PKG gene is stimulated. Better yet look at this.

It is also possible to activate PKG genes via pharmacological treatments. In a nut shell a bee that forages when you want at the drop of a hat if you give them the right drugs. Okay not so good for TF thread.

This paper did not focus on taste specifically but taste related behavior of foraging. I have seen others that are on taste specifically and what is said in this paper is consistant.

Bees can be genetically bred toward both the eating of food supplements and foraging through the gens of taste and smell. they are associated with each other. so You have to use both of them together.

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

Originally Posted by Daniel Y

The problems with the written word are actually very well known. that is why they test readers for things called "Comprehension". The writer is not responsible for the comprehension level of the reader.

So if the "writer" just strings words together in a random fashion, and the "reader" can't make sense out of gibberish, the problem is the reader's lack of comprehension. Right!!

Gibberish is a generic term in Englishfor talking that sounds like speech, but carries no actual meaning. This meaning has also been extended to meaningless text or gobbledygook. The common theme in gibberish statements is a lack of literal sense, which can be described as a presence of nonsense. Gibberish should not be confused with literary nonsense such as that used in the poem "Jabberwocky" by Lewis Carroll.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibberish

Originally Posted by Daniel Y

Just as I am not responsible that Barry could not understand the messages he deleted. I guess Barry thinks nobody should have access to knowledge he can't understand.

You are quite correct. It is obvious that Barry does not want the world to recognize your brilliant mind.

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

Edited, Mark you are right I thought I was on a different thread. dangers of coming here via e-mail notifications. I was wondering where this conversation took such a down hill turn. nope it was not so. this thread is just normal for this place. I like this place. I can come here and treat people like crap. it is normal behavior

Re: Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention

Originally Posted by Daniel Y

Okay Mark let me say it in littel words.

Smell and taste is foraging related. Comb building is foraging related. So if you can effect foraging which the above makes a very good case of showing just exactly how to do that. It is very likely that you can effect comb building.

I tend to give the children a pile of blocks and let them learn to stack them up. I don't think others learn by me setting in the middle of the floor putting every little piece in place for them.

My overall point is that beekeepers think they have been doing such a great job for so long regardless of the obvious evidence otherwise. You think you can find and use answers? You and most others can't even understand the answers when they are handed to you. They would get deleted because they are confusing.

I love your short Posts I tend to skim over your Treatises or skip over them completely. Short and sweet is what I prefer. Shallow and simpleminded as I am.

The Posts of your which got Deleted were w/out context to anything in this Thread which came before them and seemed to be in response to PMs which deknow had sent you, so Replying in public w/out Dean's part was confusing and of limited value. Barry is the arbiter of these things. Take it up w/ him through PMs.

I am only respoinsible for what I say, not what you hear. I believe that is what some are refering to. I don't think that comes across well in text communication, where the meaning of what one writes should be somewhat more accurately conveyed in a manner more clear and easily understood. Regardless of typos or misspellings