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Pussified Nation page 2

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Author

Topic: Pussified Nation

William Wallace IIMember

posted 12-08-2000 12:45 PM
It is official. I am so pissed I need to get offline for 24 hours and detox.The bottom line is very simple. Men are supposed to rule on Christ's behalf, sometimes with a rod of law, and sometimes with a tender touch of grace. And, young Christian men are doing very little of either, and hardly anything with the rod of grace. I assure you I speak from a very wide range of experience. Are you not yet sick of hearing about yet another young guy who does not go to church, does not tithe off his salary, does not read his Bible, does not keep his hands off his girlfriend, does not stop staring at porn and masturbating, does not stop drinking too much, does not stop doing drugs annd smoking weed, does not continue postponing growing up and being a husband and father to live for anyone and everyone but himself for the first time in his life so that God would get some glory out of the guy? If you are a young man, when is the last time a brother asked you what you were doing with the sum total of your life? When is the last time an elder at your church sat you down to ask you why you don't tithe and why you act like a complete flake most of the time? If you are a male or female, when is the last time you actually saw an unrepentant man brought before your church and told to leave until he changed because he was not welcome to fellowship while being a sexual deviant, unloving husband, neglecting father, greedy punk etc. etc. etc.It appears like we've got a universal conspiracy of men winking at other men as they write each other blank checks of "love" and "grace" while women and kids pick up the tab. And I'm pissed.

posted 12-08-2000 12:59 PM
Rex, You misunderstand my definition of love and empathy. What is warm and fuzzy about fixing our eyes upon the gruesome sight of Jesus, with a heavy, splintered cross digging into his back where the 'Cat of nine tales' ripped out hunks of his flesh with its ends of rock, bone and broken pottery? What is warm and fuzzy about his Glory and his dominion over us?Perhaps I have misrepresented myself in regards to anger. So I will share some of my own with you, and perhaps you will gain some wisdom in this.When someone has a weapon to your head at, say the local mini-mart (or a residential treatment facility), preserving your life will not be achieved if you escalate with him. He is tense, so you must relax. (yes, I've been there.) This generally does one of two things. First, he may begin to deescalate enough to know that he is scared sh--less and will get out of there, or Second, it will take him off guard for the split second that is needed for you to get the upper hand and neutralize him. This tense-relax response is needed for you to get the picture of what is truly happening here, and to either make peace, or to draw out your attacker. Peace should always be the first and desired option. In either case, in the midst of calm, you are ready to pounce. With righteous anger yes, but without fear. Fear is much different than anger. (and don't give me a "fear of the Lord definition", that is not the kind of fear I am talking about.) Perfect love casts out all fear. If you want to follow a guy who is as afraid as the guy holding a gun, go ahead. Row over that waterfall.I see people escalating as if it is some sort of phallic motivated nuclear buildup, and I imagine Wallace is lauging his butt off.Wallace, I chose to fly above the flack of your abusive rhetoric, to affirm you as a person of worth, to see if there is a core of hope from which these course and inflammatory ideas have come flying out like horse crap. Like the story of the "optimistic" little boy, who was throwing horse manure this way and that while imprisoned in a room full of the stench. When asked why he was flinging it around, he said, "hey with all of this horse crap, there's bound to be a pony in here somewhere." I am hoping that you are a wild stallion who needs to be broken by a good mentor. But my hope is dwindling.Wallace, you have made your next move, and sadly, you are convincing me that you are choosing not to be the real man you are, but choose instead to be merely a rhetorical rapist, willing to abuse anyone who disaggrees with you. And so this is my last response to this post.And here comes my anger. I am looking for some hu"man"ity in you. But it seems that you would rather masturbate your ego with your own ideas (in front of all of us!), and seem to care nothing for what anyone else says.You are Barabbas. And maybe the mob (for now) will go with you. But I pray you remember in time who you are dividing them against, and who's glory you will eventually have to stand in front of to account for it! There is still hope for you, Barabbas, because you, more than anyone in the history of humanity, should know that Jesus Christ died in your place.Put your weapons down, and come to the table. Before you can be a leader of men, you must learn more of what it means to be a disciple."Humble yourselves therefore, under God's mighty hand, that He may lift you up in due time." 1 Peter 5:6

posted 12-08-2000 01:01 PM
WWII - If you had started your argument with what you just posted, this whole thing would have been much easier. You have (finally!) made your point beautifully.However, I don't think Christ would have ignored a woman's questions with such an ignorant, chauvinistic, backhanded remark. That was a terribly pussified thing to do. If what you're touting here is truth (and for the record I believe it is), you better be ready to defend it well enough that you aren't afraid to answer a woman. Explanation and submission are not the same thing. Don't be paranoid. You're a teacher; so teach. And until you've explained things well enough for us to get it, for heaven's sake don't stop.Oh, and if you're going to hold to the teachings of Paul as if it's the Gospel (which it isn't), you might as well force all the men in your church to cut their hair short, remove all jewelery, makeup and adornments, and have the women keep their heads covered in the church. I don't see a 'thus saith the Lord' anywhere near those passages. Not that they're not true; however Paul is pretty clear that sometimes he's expressing what God has revealed to him, and sometimes he's expressing his own opinions. I'm concerned that you're starting to sound like one of those pussified males who feels that he has to pull rank and go power tripping instead of showing respect to someone who asked a very legitimate question OUTSIDE OF A CHURCH.Your manliness seems to be getting bogged down in your rhetoric and pride. Watch it.cell'me - You're missing the point on righteous anger. I don't mean SELF righteous anger. I mean the kind of anger and frustration that comes from seeing the bride of Christ continually wallow in sin because she hasn't learned to walk in step with the Spirit. Paul says 'In your anger do not sin' (Eph. 4:26). That implies to me that anger is not sin - we can be damn good and mad and still be righteous through Christ. If you can look at the world right now and not get properly angry, you're every bit the pussy that WWII suggests."this side of heaven" - in heaven there won't be any cause for righteous anger, so it certainly won't exist there. QED.And I reiterate: Jesus did not die for the sake of your faith. He died for the sake of your relationship with God. You're not paying attention. Your faith gets you in the door; your relationship with God gets you closer to being the man Jesus died to make you. IT'S NOT ABOUT GETTING IN THE DOOR!!! Of course our nature is no different apart from Christ - that's exactly WWII's point - our nature SHOULD BE DIFFERENT WITHIN CHRIST. For the most part, it isn't. That's the problem.And don't get arrogant, either - your sanctification is in process, too.The issue is not one of evangelism - it's one of discipleship. This issue here has little to do with sharing God's love with the unsaved (not to belittle the importance of that, just to make you aware that by itself it doesn't encapsulate the Christian Life). We're already justified; now we need to learn to live with the discipline and honor befitting a child of God - not through our own strength, but through our submission to the authority and grace of Jesus Christ. While we are not in any way able to bring ourselves to that point, it nonetheless behooves us to take our responsibility seriously. That, to me, is what WWII is on about. As you can see I disagree with his tactics, but he speaks truth.And at the moment, I am doing plenty. I am using my gifts to serve God and man, learning to understand what it really means to love my wife, and allowing God to have the glory. However I have a long way to go. And from the sounds of it, so do you.Again, respectfully submitted,Ignorantus Rex

posted 12-08-2000 01:14 PM
If you will recall the book of Acts (for those who read the Bible) when the apostles John and Peter were in Jerusalem, when they were fighting like men for a certain movement called "The Way". There was a meeting of the Sanhedrin (the religous leaders of the day) called to discuss what to do with the situation. A certain man named Gameleilo, (i misspelled that one) who also was the rabbi to the apostle Paul, gave some brilliant insight. He said something like, "If this movement is from me men it will not last but if it is from God we will not be able to stop it and will find ourselves fighting with God." So for anyone other wining, complaining lassies who want to share there opinions with Mr. WWII, go ahead and keep them to yourselves. Real love encompasses alot more than giving backrubs. Our culture defines love based on Shakespear, real men define it based on Scripture. Loving people includes telling them the truth, and it certainly includes discipline. "And No discipline feels good at the time."(somewhere in Hebrews 11 or 12 i dont have a Bible).If this man has been sent by God (as I am persuaded he is) then all you pansies and lilies might just find yourselves arguing with the Lord.I personally am enjoying the discipline I am recieving, not that it feels good, but I know when get married i will be able to wear the pants and not have to roll over on my back so my wife can scratch my belly. I am looking forward to the coming WWII after the new year.Calvin

posted 12-08-2000 01:18 PM
I want to know, why all of you are getting offended at what WWII is saying. The only reason I can think of, if you’re a guy, is that you are failing in your responsibilities as a man of God. I am, I admit it, but I decided to change. Look at every point that WWII is stating a man of God is REQUIRED be. I guess you’re all just offended because it feels like an attack on your character, or who you are (pussified if you ask me). Well, suck it up man. Take some responsibility for Jesus' sake (and I do mean for the sake of the gospel). And if your a woman, please explain to me why you feel the need to have more balls than your fathers or husbands, when clearly God has naturally gifted women in other areas and that the word of God commands husbands to teach their wives and children the word. I do know that my mother sure wished she had a real man as her husband....... but I guess the modern woman likes to work full time and throw her kids into a daycare to learn words, their father is probably teaching them anyways, while coming home with lice or some damn cold that they caught from some other kid in that lame ass day care, while her husband is flirting with the latte girl at the starbucks after getting fired from his job for looking at porn while at work and wondering why he and his wife stopped having sex. Wow, we come along way from the "little house on the prairie" days. Men, get de-pussified!!! Women, support you de-pussified man. I don’t want my taxes paying your welfare. In the words of Chris Rock, "i don't want your kids robbing me in ten years" - A de-pussifing Corinthian[This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-08-2000).]

posted 12-08-2000 01:19 PM
cell, please forgive me if I seemed to be preaching out of my butt and given a perverted version of the gospel. I was merely trying to bring order to a one-sided conversation that seemed to be running away. My philosophy in posting is to get people to think, refine my own views, and see how we can sharpen each other. At times, I do this by playing devil's advocate (I think I said this in a later post).I'm greatly encouraged that people are beginning to discuss this and not just spit venom, hopefully we will go somewhere with this topic now. Just to get things straight, it might not be a bad idea for people to define what they mean when they talk about being a "real man". So far WWII has given his definition and the image of Christ was offered as well. Please be specific and don't say "according to the Bible", scroll through some other posts outside of this topic to see how that can still lead to confusion. If you think my suggestion is asinine, ignore it, no need to respond and tell me I'm an idiot. I already know I am, and I acknowledge that I have a lot to learn and grow in. Help me learn.

posted 12-08-2000 03:00 PM
Knowah - I was not referring to you in my post. My comment was directed toward the valid points in WWII's initial post which, unfortunately, deteriorated into some kind of skewed gospel. The good of it all was blurred by the excessive derogatory comments and sense of "on high" declarations. Knowah, your post(s) have been a strong witness of faith and won't see any dissent from me regarding your position in this thread.Rex - arrogance is the last thing I want to bring to these forums. As I re-read my post I appear to place myself squarely in your camp. That is, I am not any where close to being fully sanctified. And I continue to stand with the cross of Christ and the conviction (faith) that it is ALL I need to be saved. There are a ton of good, tithing, morally right people hanging out in our churches and it doesn't mean squat. God is interested in our faith relationship with him because that is a transforming relationship that can give meaning to all areas of our lives (like our families, our tithes, our friends). IF I live the rest of my life never sinning (yeah, right) and looking real good at church and yet have no personal faith in Jesus, then I'm screwed. So let's get this idea that getting un-pussified is connected to somehow cleaning up our lives, because the truth is WE CAN'T DO IT. Only God can, so let's humbly seek His face and quite tearing into everyone else's face. My issue, is with those who claim some moral high ground (of which there is none for us) and denounce the very lives and faith of those who somehow seem incongruous to their myopic world-view. How does calling another man a "woman" become rigteous anger? How does insulting and then summarily dismissing a womans' honest query convey righteous anger? (BTW - experience tells me most angry people do let their anger become sin. Not surprising considering our nature.)You claim that we do not know WWII's world/experiences or whatever. True. Nor does he know ours. How can any discussion take place if his initial response to anyone and everyone is to slide into some vulgar, vile discourse on what he absolutely thinks. Come on guys, what torques me is that you've staked out your turf and then hurl crap around like it's God's desire to see his people torn up and divided.I agree, Rex. If WWII had begun where his previous post started there would be a lot less flak flying around this thread. So why choose to excuse the kind of destructive monologue that was begun here? If the truth is what Wallace holds, then let it stand on its own merits - minus all the seething anger.Wanna be angry? Fine. Just do something constructive with it (which it sounds as if you are). So what about WWII? Why does he continue to duck the many questions posed here? Why not lend some credence to his position?

posted 12-08-2000 03:18 PM
Oh, no you DI-NIT!!!!!!!Don't even patronize me by assuming I have no knowledge of Biblical verses. I know those verses quite well, and have had many different teachings on them, all by very UNpussified men. Would you also like me to never braid my hair? Cover it 100% of the time (since I am to cover it while I am praying, and since we are to pray ceaselessly, that would be always)? Never wear jewelry? What if I don't find an unpussified man and don't get married, thereby disabling me to have children, and then I'm not eligible for heaven. If you're going to take it literally, take it literally! The verses you use are highly controversial, and you use them out of context. But let's just give you the benefit of the doubt and say that we'll take these verses literally. Unless I've missed something, we are not in church at the moment, and I am very legal in asking questions, and having a valid and respectful response. Like I said, at the beginning, I really respected your fervor in getting the men together to clean up their act, it really is necessary. However, my view of you has changed from a good guy with good intentions, to a piece of white trash from Texas wearing a wife beater keeping his wife barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. You have infuriated me with your last comment. Two thumbs down for your new movement, as it is not the good-intentioned movement I thought it to be at the start. It has turned into a bunch of adolescent-minded males with too much testosterone. Too bad, because I was hopeful at the beginning. I guess I'll just have to put up with the two extremes I've always been used to: 1) the pussified, and 2) the shovenist.

posted 12-08-2000 03:43 PM
You may have missed my response under the female comrades, so I've listed it below. I also did respond to your other question quite fully in that section.Thank you. I agree. And I apologize for my tone to the young woman. The men, however, who claim Christ will continue to be extended the right hand of fellowship...fist and all.

posted 12-09-2000 06:05 PM
I've never posted anything on Midrash before, but this recent discussion really has me salivating. First off; Wallace, you rock! Can we do lunch? Thank you for bringing up what I feel is one of the most crucial issues of our day. The American male has virtually forgotten what manhood and masculinity is, and aside from politics, nowhere is this more evident than in the church. Midst all the verse wrangling and chest hair preening, I think the crux of this topic is that we don't have a clear definition or role model of manhood. It's supposed to be, I believe, our fathers who teach us this, but when you grow up with a dad who's absent, distant, and/or abusive, what do you do? I became a follower of Christ when I was five, but just because I had read the entire Bible numerous times over didn't protect me from sexual confusion. Yes, Christ is supposed to be my model, but in the gospel He's jewish, and I'm native american- he probably had a bar mitzvah to mark his passage into manhood, but what did I get? The rite of passage for my people was to kill a man of another tribe, and a couple of years ago we just buried the word "warrior" under the Tree of Peace! The Haudenosaunee were once the only Indian group that was greater than the federal government, but now talk about pussified! While I'm talking culture, what if you're not from an indiginous group? What do you have to mark your arrival into manhood? Being old enough to drink? Drive? Enlist? And if you don't know when you became a man, what do you have to stand on to say that you presently are one? I believe that God is my heavenly father and that it is He who makes and defines a man as who he is. But how do I as a finite sinful human connect to God thru my relationship with Jesus Christ in such a way as to know from Him the how and when of manhood? Lets keep the discussion going!

posted 12-11-2000 03:36 AM
i'll tell you who jesus is in my life today. jesus is the one who reminds me that i am a sick, depraved piece of shit without his grace. in a lot of ways i have a big fuck you for everyone out there. i cry. i cry alot. but if you, william wallace II, think that makes me less of a man (and i take less presumption than those you have called women, by not making that an assumption and using it as part of my argument) then you are sorely mistaken. i cry because i know what a sick excuse for a man i am. i cry because i am moved to tears by god and pastor marks sermons. i cry when i hear certain songs or realize by the holy spirit, certain graces present in my life that i take for granted. i cry. on my knees, bitterly, and without shame. i fucking suck. i deserve to rot in hell as do all of you. for all of you who don't understand william wallace, and want to put up all these defensive posts, skirting the issue at the core, not living up to the fact that you need to be depussified too, fuck you too.moving on. i agree wholeheartedly with you william. i ask one thing and that is admission into your revolution. i have been a christian since age three (i am now twenty). i have been raised in a loving, godly christian home, son to a pastor, son to overseas missionaries, most every advantage, most every provision available in my life. yet i have lived a self centered, pussified life. since sixth grade i have dealt with lust and masturbation. i lost my virginity two years ago. i spent a year doing drugs, betraying my parents trust, lying to all those who love me, trying to forget the fact that i'm not a virgin. and somehow in the midst of the weed and shrooms and abusive drinking and longings for death, christ became real to me. christ rebirthed in me the desire to be pure. the desire to be a broken man and a ressurected warrior. and here i am. i am a fucked up individual. we all are and the fact that i know that i am and will claim it and seek change and gods love and grace means that i'm one step closer to growing balls. every man of god should be a part of this revolution. every man of god who thinks he shouldn't be is messed up. i need change. i want change. i moved for change. i live for change. glory and praise be to our father in heaven. blessed be the spirit who moves, inspires, and fills us with god. thanks be to jesus, without whom, we would be eternally lost. eternally pussified.for all of you, i love you. brothers in christ. i pray for you and ask the lord to reign down his love on you and to reform your asses. i humbly pray the same for myself. blessings. blessings all. -violet[This message has been edited by thevioletburning (edited 12-11-2000).]

posted 12-11-2000 08:44 AM
MR.WWII asked earlier on this thread for women to reply with a comment or two on a pussified man that they have known. I would like to answer, however the numbers of pussified men I have know are too great to rant about them on this board. So I will take a leap of faith and be dangerously general and list the qualifications of all of the pussified men that I have known.1. They take no responsibility (in anything)2. They Abuse alcohol among other substances as an excuss to be "more Manly"Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with men enjoying a frosty draft of ale, just don't become a pussified alcoholic in the process.3. They don't respect women. 4. They don't respect God or His laws.5. They are not willing to repent for their sin. (PRIDE)6. on and on and on and on.....I would like to expand on #3 and #4. God calls us to not only fear him but to respect him. When you fear and respect God you will respect women. As a woman (not a feministic pansy) I feel that I can say that women want a real man the kind of man Mr. WWII speaks of. This is the kind of man that will respect, honor, and love a woman the way God has intended. I don't want an over sensitive, don't "hurt" me, emotional wreck of a blubbering idiot for a husband. I say women should demand the standards that Mr. WWII has set from all men. To comment on those who have erroneously tried to rebuke this argument for depussification; it seems to me that the counter-arguments are merely a meger defense for the pussified state that you are subject to. Go BEYOND your culture. Don't be brain washed by the Will and Grace effigies on network T.V. Read the Scripture, confess your sin, fear God, respect God, take resposibility and REPENT.Quit being such a wuss.

posted 12-11-2000 10:08 AM
here it is again:my argument is not with WWII's position, but rather his inflammatory demeanor in presenting it. the issue for me is not whether or not there are half-men out there (it goes without saying that there are) nor is the issue a call for the restoration to manhood by WWII. i completely agree.for me, the issue is why go around slamming the plank in every one else's eye when the plank in your own eye is so big you can't even see me - the one that you demand become de-pussified. i am totally aware of my depraved state as a man. so why do i need some smack from some no face who has no idea about my story - my prayerful yearnings to be more than who i am. the men who are mentoring/pastoring me are already at work. the men I am mentoring/pastoring are already at work. just because i choose not to scream profanities and offer brews as the preferred method of discipleship does not invalidate me or my faith.i am choosing to come Christ in humility and seek His face for MY own failing before ranting about the failings of others. as Christ moves in me and transforms me - the heart to call others to faith, obedience or whatever will reflect His character, not ours. so let's think a bit more about how we throw around these calls for new life.

posted 12-11-2000 12:47 PM
I heard that Wallace II is seven feet tall, can win a soul with half of an old testament verse in under ten seconds, and chastised 50 youth pastors in one day. [This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-11-2000).]

posted 12-11-2000 01:22 PM
Many props to the violet burning for a wrenching summary of this entire thread.As to posts regarding the form of WWII's message, get over it. The heart of the matter is this – as men, we all need an ass kicking for our sin. Period.And ass kickings are not pretty.When Christ kicked Peter's ass in Matthew16:28, he used the harshest rebuke... Get behind me Satan.Peter was certainly crushed. Jesus knew he would be. He did it anyway because it was necessary. In this He did not sin (though he did not display populist psychocrap self-help notions of “the fruits of the spirit” – that’s not peaceful, that’s not gentle, that’s not self-controlled).When a man (and not the Messiah) has the compassion to kick another man’s ass in this way, there will be noise, interference, sin, and imperfect delivery involved. A real man does this in spite of the likely fallout. He does not wait to be perfected or to perfect his message in order to act. If he sins in the process, which he, being a wicked man in need of many ass kickings of his own, is likely to do, he repents.And this, men, is leadership.And I would weigh in on the side that says 98.57% of the things that WWII has posted are offensive but not sinful. I would not say them the same way, even if I were very very very pissed. But that does not mean they should not be said.The Man In Black

posted 12-11-2000 02:16 PM
man in black,great point! perhaps i have been overly "sensitive" to the delivery system of this message. again, i agree with the message in principle. however, it is telling to me that the support for this ass-kicking seems, at times, oblivious to the offensive nature of its presentation and then attacks anyone that raises an objection.when brothers in Christ are saying, 'we hear you, about dialing it back a notch?" and are dismissed out of hand as some "little gir, dress-wearin', sex with a man" kind of guy, that pisses me off.why can't i support my need for an ass-whoopin' by someone other than a guy with anger/masturbation issues because daddy was gone and mommy didn't raise him right to be a man like lil' Johnny from WWII's first post.i say some need to get past their "oh me, i lost my manhood as a child and can't find it outside of a beer and a fight" mentality. once that's done, i would be more than happy to bend over and take your boot to my ass. until then, i'll keep listening to real men like pastor mark.

posted 12-11-2000 02:55 PM
Cell,The act of “Raising an objection” to some ears sounds legitimate. To others it sounds like whining.When we start deconstructing the elements of the ass kicking (what color shoes are being used, what is the trajectory of the foot, how far deep do you suppose that thing can go?, yada, yada, yada) we move from less of an ass kicking to more of a ballet.This, from my experience, only enrages the ass-kicker.Sometimes it is best to shut up and take it like a man. Especially if you deserve it.The Man in Black

posted 12-11-2000 03:12 PM
good point man in black. i think that i can agree with pretty much all sides of this arguement in one way or another, but the fact remains that william has posted a convicting message and rather than heeding it, agreeing with it, and preparing for the beating, some have chosen to disect the delivery of the message (which came from a fallen man, thus is a fallen message) and in the process completely lost the message its self. we all agree that all are fallen. why bicker about methodology and petty finger pointing issues. if you agree with william, embrace it. if not, you know that what he stands for is godly, so don't post inflammitory posts in response. if you don't like what you read, stay out of this message board. -the violet

posted 12-11-2000 06:02 PM
Congratulations Willie Wallace, it's obvious you've touched a sensitive nerve here! And to that I say, "Good job!" Anytime a rant elicits impassioned reaction, I believe you're on the right track.Hey Man in Black and violetburning, this ‘shut-up-and-take-your-beating’ argument is RETARDED and JUVENILE. There are legitimate issues which have been raised in response to WWII’s posts. To just brush them off as “Oh, you’re just trying to argue your way out of your deserved beating” is a cop-out. When we agree with the crux of someone’s argument, it doesn’t mean we have to accept the baggage which comes with it or the means of its delivery. If the Ku Klux Klan lynched a black man for stealing, would you tell the man, “Hey, quit yer protestin’! Buck up and take yer deserved wuppin’ like a man!”? Willie, your assessment of contemporary Christian men is accurate; most have dropped the ball. (Maybe both!) But I have to agree with Cell; your macho posturing is nauseating! If the movement you’re heading up requires embracing the sadly ubiquitous canned-beer-drinkin’-pick-up-truck-drivin’-WWF-watchin’-college-football-baseball-cap-with-a-ridiculously-curled-in-bill-wearin’-a-women’s-place-is-in-the-kitchen-barefoot-and-preg nant-if-I’m-doing-something-wrong-punch-me-in-the-face-and-break-my-nose mentality, then count me out! If it is about looking at Christ and the model He is for us and comparing our pathetic state to that standard and, in turn, figuring out how we can change and more importantly, allowing Him to change us, then count me in.As for your methodology, I don’t think you can change anything by merely lashing out at the mess. You’re identifying problems without offering viable solutions. (Starting a ‘secret’ movement smells more like FOE or Free Masons than anything worthwhile!) Bringin’ down the hammer is not a solution. It is my opinion and experience that compassionate admonition is far more effective than iron-fisted chastisement. (See Romans 2) Like it or not, we heed the counsel of those who've won our respect; who we feel love us and want the best for us, not those who smack us upside the head while yelling, "CHANGE YOUR WAYS YOU LOSER!" Character is huge when it comes to issues like this. Modeling how a man of God should look will take you thousands of miles farther in winning disciples than shouting at people, “I don’t like what they’re doing (or not doing)!” Knowing nothing of your character, Willie W., you’re not qualified to chastise anyone. You can identify a problem, as well you’ve done, but that’s it.Now this is not to say we don't need an upside-the-head-smacking. We do. It's just not meant to be delivered via a bb post. It should be delivered one of two ways: By the Holy Spirit (I know, this is a hard one to accept because most of us don't REALLY trust that God will be as effective [or punctual!] as we would be. I confess I struggle with wanting to help the Spirit along!), and/or by those around us. Hopefully those who we know well, who’ve earned our respect and who are qualified to deliver lashings where lashings are due! One of the problems with Christian men these days is that they’ve stopped ‘sharpening’ each other. Single and married Christian men need to be meeting regularly with a small group of friends who can truly hold each other accountable; asking the tough questions, loving each other, recognizing bullshit and calling each other on it and praying for each other (always). It’s the model Jesus Christ gave us. The ‘pussified’ “…church men's group that is really a woman's group in disguise complete with cookies and crying and antidepressants...” which you (rightly) rail against is just a warm, fuzzy, demonic distortion of this model.I agree that there’s a problem. (And I’m glad you had the guts to bring it up, WWII.) I would rather look at ways we can encourage, exhort, admonish and disciple than just chastising away.Un-anonymously,-Bryan Dutt

posted 12-11-2000 07:25 PM
"If we do not sacrifice the natural to the spiritual, the natural life will mock at the life of the Son of God in us and produce a continual swither. This is always the result of an undisciplined spiritual nature. We go wrong because we stubbornly refuse to discipline ourselves, physically, morally, or mentally. "I wasn't disciplined when I was a child." You must discipline yourself now. If you don't, you will ruin the whole of your personal life for God. God is not with our natural life while we pamper it." Oswald Chambers

posted 12-11-2000 10:01 PM
Comrades. Squatting Bear raised a good issue that I want to explore. In most cultures throughout human history there have been rights of passage after which a boy was recognized and treated as a man. In our age wherein being a man is some sort of deviation needing treatment (just look at the legion of young boys popping Ridlin and the like as if were Pez) we have no idea what to do with a teenage boy. In the Hebrew world a man became a boy around age 13 and he was permitted to marry by that age. The average age of man getting married was 18, rarely was a man over 20 single. In our world, you can be a damn boy well into your fifties as the present generation of boomers has so well shown. Between hair implants, viagra and plastic surgery you can wear your lettermans jacket well into retirement and still cruise the high school looking for hot chicks and still be elected the erected president of the United States of Pussification. The question remains, when does a boy become a man? When does a boy stop playing with other boys and get sat down by the men and told that at that moment he is a man and has to get it together because he will be expected to act like a man and treated like one if he does not? Without that clear line we have pushed adolescence into high school, then into college, then until you're married and now you can prolong the deliquency until Jesus comes back by shacking up with your parents well into your 20's, knocking boots with your girlfriend as she pays the rent, and one day get married to send your kids to daycare and wife to work so you don't have all that hassle on your very narrow and brittle shoulders.The question of the day is this, at what age is a boy a man and what should we do to tell them that?[This message has been edited by William Wallace II (edited 12-11-2000).]

Pornography is introduced to the prepubecent. T.V. starts brainwashing with the onset of cartoons. Boys are exposed to feminazi teachers in elementary school.The way to start affecting a boy is by spending time with him and showing him how it's done. Without a Godly example in his life the boy will stay a boy. Start giving the kid the Gospel when he's in diapers.You better start early!

posted 12-12-2000 05:03 AM
"Do not suppose I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34It's written in red so you know the score.WWII: I find your approach offensive and your demeanor calloused. However, with few exceptions, I couldn't agree more.You are content-rich but you might try some mercy with your message. 'nuff said.Blessings.

posted 12-12-2000 06:48 AM
If you do not serve your church with your gifts, do not whine – You are a pussy and the smallness of your step can be seen from the satellites.If you do not tithe in your church, do not whine – your are a pussy, albeit, a pussy with kat-nip and cool toys.If you do not take specific actions to woo women around you into lifelong Solomaic Songs, do not whine – you are too fixated on pussies to do anything about properly getting some.If you do not seriously consider what you can do with your time and your money to strengthen and encourage the widows, orphans, single moms, and fatherless children in your church, do not whine – you are a pussy and, if you were successful in properly getting some, you wouldn’t have a clue how to deal with fatherhood (the logical conclusion of properly gotten pussy).If you do not call the believing men in your life to the carpet for trading the mantle of leadership God has bestowed on them (not reading the Bible and doing what it says) for the pork and beans of individualism and complaint, do not whine – I can hear you prowling in the chicken coop and I know you know what country men do to cats in the chicken coop.These are marks of manhood. I have just kicked your ass.The Man in Black[This message has been edited by The Man in Black (edited 12-12-2000).]

posted 12-12-2000 10:34 AM
I have been thinking and praying about this whole string and I am really sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. I am sorry if men of God had their inner child spanked. I feel terrible for all the tears you guys have shed over the pain of my words. Please forgive me. Please come to my house right now so I can hold you tightly in my arms and draw you to myself and whisper oh so sweetly in your ears...shut the hell up.

posted 12-12-2000 11:19 AM
I would argee with HOPEFUL that "The way to start affecting a boy is by spending time with him and showing him how it's done" and that should start at the early stages of life. I would say that at the start of jr high to high school, would be the time to treat your son (other men etc.) like a man. Lay down the law on how he is suppose to kick another mans ass, if that high school horn dog comes near his sister. Let him know of his God ordained responcibility, to get a job and have nature toil against him. -plus other things that i do not know of, because i went through the pussified ordaining of a man. Finally, at the age of 23 im turning into a man (All because Jesus gave me a swift kick in the ass)!!! -A Corinthian[This message has been edited by A_Corinthian (edited 12-12-2000).]

posted 12-12-2000 11:24 AM
wee little willy,no tears shed. no inner-child to spanked. just an anger over the same kind of crap that is served up so often everyday on TBN, albeit with a different delivery system than yours, which does more to kill faith that uplift it.why the punkish attitude? why the need to yell at the top of your lungs til everyone else is drowned out? answer me this or pipe it!

posted 12-12-2000 02:27 PM
note (12-13-00):will, why the edited post? why change your words from "like I give a shit" to "like I care" after the fact? are you posturing for any particular reason? are you not satisfied with what you're saying or how you're saying it? just curious?wee one,so well put. i am so hurt by your cutting sarcasm.your swings between thoughtful discourse and inane rants are troubling. you seem to have no ability and/or desire to enter into any kind of meaningful dialogue - which translates into you don't know what the hell you're talking about.my take is: your choice of this virtual venue as a place to espouse ideals of manhood belies your lack of it. a real man is not satisfied with making third grade insults to people of unknown origin and history. you, and everyone with you, are more interested in sounding cool and being right than in carrying the cross of Christ. and that sucks.BTW, i doubt you could bake anything other than your own self-absorbed mind could eat. [This message has been edited by cell'me (edited 12-13-2000).]

posted 12-12-2000 03:00 PM
Point of Order:Real Men (and Women) know how to spell. Before you good men and women proceed further with your contentious banter, why don't you all start with something simple like forming a complete thought and communicating it clearly. That is all.

posted 12-12-2000 03:32 PM You look at the god, Jesus, and say, “make me a man! Make me a manly man that I might glorify God!” and there is sad laughter in response.Can you hear the laughter? Look at this thread! Look how we’re missing the point again. Do you really think becoming manly will make you godly? Or worse, do you profess God for the sake of establishing your manhood? We don’t submit to lust or porn because we have forgotten to be men, but because we have forgotten the desire for God. We will not know God, or even remember the real desire, by making ourselves men. Men do not glorify God. God glorifies himself. Forget becoming men, we have more pressing problems. We do not know the God we worship.

posted 12-12-2000 05:24 PM
Men do not fear God. And, whether they do their job or not they are still residing in a place of headship and their negligence is reflected in the tyranny of homes, churches, and the like. In Acts 5 a man named Ananias decided (with his wife) to withhold money they had pledged to God. Peter declared that in this simple act of failing to fully pay what he owed to God for his tithe that Satan had filled his heart. And so God killed him. And great fear we are told came over the church of that day. Imagine if every man who failed to pay his tithe in full simply died in our churches on Sunday.What I mean by being men is something that begins with fearing God in such a way that wisdom, meaning the practical daily ways to demonstrate God's active presence in our lives, is the end result. This wisdom is most clearly seen as men govern with headship over wives, homes, and churches. Conversely, a pussified man is a man conformed to the pattern of this age who claims to be a son of God but does little to take upon himself a profound fear of God and carry the mantle of responsiblity he has been given. In his defense such men are common to shout that they just need more patience and love. But with such men it seems that may have been all they have gotten and thus far it has benefitted them little. Lastly, I would argue that indeed a rigorously solid theology proper (understanding of God) is elemental and that many men have been subjected to more education along the lines of psychology (ala self-esteem, self-actualization, self-fulfilment - all euphemistic code words for pride and narcissism) and moralism (steps to becoming holier by ones self-discipline and works rather than God's grace) than true theology which seeks God's glory and revelation rather over our own glory and self-understanding. But, the average Christian man that I know (and I assure you I know literally thousands upon thousands) tends to know a great amount of theology in comparison to most brothers and sisters throughout time and across the globe. And, within his reach is enough resources to study most anything he can dream of. But, he is often lazy, not diligently taking hold of his faith and maturing willingfully by simply ceasing to be a hearer only and become a doer of what he knows to be correct. If the spirit of GOd is within him and desires him to stop masturbating, putting his hands on his girlfriend, blowing his money irresponsibly, giving all his time to being entertained and the like then we must conclude that his flesh is weak and what he needs is a workout to make him strong, not therapy to further explore the weakness of neglected muscles.

posted 12-12-2000 06:57 PM
This discussion has been focusing a lot upon sin as the primary cause of masculine deviancy, as so it probably is; however I would like to again place the suggestion that ignorance plays a very strong role.No question that Christ Jesus is Lord and should be Lord of every aspect of our lives, but part of worship is simply being what God created you to be, and if that's a man, then you'd better get busy and be the best manly man you can be. It's not about self-glorification or self-fulfillment, but submission and humility. Being a man of God requires both a grasp of God -to whom we worship, and manhood, -how we should worship.

posted 12-12-2000 07:04 PM
"Then Hannah prayed and said: '. . . Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance, for the Lord is a God who knows and by him deeds are weighed. The bows of the warriors are broken but those who stumbled are armed with strength. Those who were full hire themselves out for food, but those who were hungry hunger no more. She who was barren has borne seven children, but she who has had many sons pines away. The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up. The Lord sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts. He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. For the foundations of the earth are the Lord's; upon them he has set the world. He will gaurd the feet of his saints, but the wicked will be silenced in darkness. It is not by strength that one prevails; those who oppose the Lord will be shattered. He will thunder against them from heaven; the Lord will judge the ends of the earth. He will give strength to his king and exalt the horn of his annointed.'" 1 Samuel 2:1-10[This message has been edited by Hannah (edited 12-12-2000).]

posted 12-13-2000 11:59 AM
Men don’t fear God because they don’t see God. Your observation is astute: one can read all the theology and receive all the love and mercy in the world and still not recognize the profound existence of God. Call such people Pharisees or call them Christians, it makes little difference. The Jesus you believe in didn’t come to correct the Pharisees in their errors, he came to feed those who are hungry, to heal those who are sick and seeking a cure.I respect your style, and you are obviously very effective. I’m all for teaching people, bloody fists and all, to have discipline over their sin and their flesh. But your harshness is beneficial only for those who know—and know to the core of their being—their desperate appetite for God.For the general public enforcing the manly responsibility of men will not instill in men the fear of God. Neither will it bring them to an active knowledge of God. Instead it will teach them the fear of the church, which is a poor substitution.As for those “pussified men” who think they are full, those who rape their girlfriends without knowing, those who sing in church, those who hide from their wives, then spout theology and religion as a guise for spirituality—those people don’t need your fists. Neither do they need to be the object of your love and mercy. But rather, they need to see—and see overwhelmingly—your freedom, and that freedom which is a freedom from fear, laws, lust, culture, suffering, and your own ego. They need to be amazed by you. They need to smell your lover on your breath, tasting that your lover is the likes of which they, as would-be men, have never had. Show them your desire, and show them your feast. When they become drunk on desire for God, then they are ripe for your discipline-teaching, manly man-making violence.But as for me, I ask for fists.

posted 12-13-2000 01:29 PM
expatriot,I like what you have to say regarding this issue. However, I see similar effectiveness with "brands" of "harshness" happening all around me and the gospel is far too often misrepresented.Interestingly enough, WWII claims his own manhood and shouts for manly men. Not so long ago, Jerry Falwell claims the high ground, pounds the pulpit and vigorously denounces all kinds of sin in our lives. Lo and behold, Jerry is caught up in his own sin and damages the integrity of his message by being exactly who he is (a sinner) and all the while attempting to convine people he is somehow better, even above them.It was a crock then with Jerry and it is a crock now with Willy. Wallace is no more a man than any other man. Furthermore, his disregard for humility and respect is completely antithetical to the Christ-hymn of Philippians 2:5-11. I read Phil. 2:3 and see nothing of that in his posts. The arrogance is sickening and the circular reasoning used to shout down his detractors is laughable.I also welcome the fists of brothers in Christ. I only pray that these fists will belong men who seek to decrease so that Christ might increase in their lives. Not the other way around.

posted 12-13-2000 05:28 PM
brother,i agree with bryan. your shut-up-and-take-your-beating arguement is lame. your first post on the whole "pussified nation" subject, was one of the best so far, though. I agree with almost everything you expressed, except your seemingly whole-hearted, unconditional acceptance of Mr. WallaceII's misguided missile.porkfry,your hilarious...keep it up.Mr. Wallace,Your, "It is official. I am so pissed I need to get offline for 24 hours and detox." post was amazing. Perfectly delivered, with power, and a measure of sensitivity. I think everyone will agree that you made points, and your point way more with that post than with your others. More facts, and answers, less complete ass-hole comments, unbecoming of a leader, ie. "Please hike up your skirt and come to my house. I'll bake you something and pretend like I care."cell'me and knowah,I'm with you for the most part.