As the namesake says I'm Hugely intrested in the american armor doctrine however im looking to break into online multiplayer with it and im struggling to figure out how to best survive the early game to bring my ultra cheap tank advantage into play. even the hard AI (the one i usually play against) can pin me down and cripple me early on if i'm not careful any advice?

Prioritize land, concentrate on priorities, and focus on the strategic victory over tactical.

So what I mean by this, you want early tank advantage means you want early fuel. Focus efforts on getting fuel and being ahead in fuel. Lots of players try to grab more than they can hold, so figure out where you can get a fuel lead and build tactics around that. Also recognize the map may not even allow for this strategy, how much total fuel is on the map? Can you create asymmetries in resources to even get that fuel lead? Is there enough fuel to push more than one tank per 10 minutes?

Figure out the map, figure out your strategy, then maybe check out the post on defense about how to hold your land.

You don't always have to out-number your Axis opponents with tanks in order to defeat them as Armor doctrine. Sometimes it would be better to use some individual strong units rather than spamming a lot of weak ones. For example you could use the Pershing (but remember to upgrade it with HE rounds once it comes out nearby ur tank depot before sending it to the front, and put a tank commander inside it too to increase your sight range or call off-map arty after unlock) combined by some other HE Shermans to protect the Pershing or maybe use the Sherman Jumbo which has very good armor by the way (costs 7 command points but only 750 MP call-in) combined by some snipers and M8 Scott howitzer tanks as well as Hellcat or M10 from ambush or jackson tank destroyers.

Despite that Armor doctrine is still actually capable of out-numbering your opponents specifically after unlocking mass production which eventually makes all your Shermans become cheaper. And you don't always have to capture more fuel points, because if you upgrade your supply yard, you will be able to maintain higher fuel income. Also, check your customize army menu in the game lobby and make sure the Super Pershing is selected But beware, because it's available only once.

Forget the spam. Spam in BK is mostly pointless. Its just free food for your opponents.

Td´s in ambush to tackle the attacking axis. Basic shermans and their HE to stop their inf.For the offense you have nothing so far. You can kill the one or other AT weapon but heavy camping axis will always beat you. Against their Tanks use pershings (cover them with normal shermans). The 76 mm equiped shermans are a death trap and pure waste of res. Even against the "weakest" common axis tanks, the Tank IV H/J´s your chance to actually penetrate will be slightly below 50%. You can now imagine what your chances are against anything above. Furthermore, your 76 mm shermans have horrible long reload times. Even the biggest axis tank guns easily reload two seconds faster.

So yeah, forget to even think about overruning defenses. Spam is one of the worst things you can do here. It just makes their defenses even stronger.Same against tanks.....use 90 mm tanks like pershings.

I heard you want an expert for armor doc..I am your man the best here First of all armor doc is for offensive aggresive players not for defensive boys with passive playstyle.So be as aggresive as you can before axis camp cause armor doc is weak against defensive line. It lucks arty so most of the times you ll have to rely on your mates to clear them. The only arty you have is calliope and howitzer barrage which is an unlockable ability on the tree but it doesnt have a good range.As for the tree point allocation go for the cheap shermans you ll need 3 points.Make an m4 with explosive rounds of course dont ever forget to supply your tanks before you leave the base( you can make an ammunition truck but it s a waste of time). Most of the times you may have to go for hellcat after shermans. It needs only 1 point and you ll need an anti-tank on early-mid game until you unlock your heavy tanks.Always put it on camouflaged position and supply it of course with armor pen and explosive rounds.It has a very weak armor so play it smart.Also dont ever forget to make your upgrades on your supply yard which give you extra fuel income and lower fuel maintance.After that you have two best options:1)Calliope,jumbo. If you dont have a good amount of fuel,in the near future you see that you wont have any and you desperately need a good tank go for jumbo(with tank commander). It needs only manpower to call it,it is good against medium armor axis tanks like iv's and has a fairly good armor. Something to mention dont forget to use your tank's abilities like suppresive voley and explosives they can be so annoying against enemy's infantry. Pesonally i dont go for jumbo most of the times cause they made it to spend 7 points to unlock few patches before which i find too much for a jumbo.2) Pershings, the elite of armor doc. Pershings are the best option to deal with axis heavy tanks like tigers and panthers. They have a lot of hp and good armor, they arent so good against infantry except the explosive rounds you can load so you have to accompany them with an m4 for example. After pershings it comes your best weapon on the game which is the ''Super Pershing''. Needless to say that is the best tank in the game( at least for me but most of the players can agree with me). It isnt so good against infantry but it isnt its purpose to deal with infantry. When enemy sees super pershing they re getting so crazy and will start to focus it with every single power and weapon they have. Use it preservative and wisely cause unfortunately you can call it only once in the battlefield. You can understand its power when you see such things like it s the only tank in the game you can call once, they gave it only armor pen rounds while most of the tanks have some other options and enemy gets crazy when they see it.Try to not lose it at ANY cost.Rest point on the tree are mostly supportive style but dont understimate them, they are pretty usefull.You can of course experiment on your own things that fits your playstyle so you can try some games with armor doc and see what suits you best.These are some useful ideas for a begginer. Everything else is about time and exercise to become a good player and of course talent..!

Your greatest friend now is the aim time of AT guns. That can give you a pretty decent vehicle stage and helps to prevent axis from camping too early.

Adding to Dolphin: I wouldnt go "just because" for the M4 sherman mass prod unlock. If you got a nice start with your mates and have a jeep alive go for the unlock that enables vehicles to cap. That way you can make huge gains right from the start which axis first have to retake while you get res from it. I went pretty often for that. Also i am going to get additionally 57 mm AT, M20 and the like. To make it even harder for the enemie, lay down mines everywhere you can with greyhound. M20 and M8 greyhound is an awesome combo. Detecting snipers/recons, laying mines etc. Untill your enemie gets back into game you have lots of time (and your mates) to make the next steps.

Also, as the arty strike is unlocked after three points now and avaialble from chaffe and Stuart. That can be usefull early on as well (such momentum strikes are most usefull at stages were enemie defenses are still weak and single defensive units cruical.) Crack them with this new early unlock.The worst thing you can do is to sit down in early mid stage. Or if then only in combo with a mate that gets CW RA doc and priest. If not, waiting is suicide. And in case you had a bad start, NEVER ever be selfish. You cant do much. Any solo attempt to go forward is a waste of ressources and time. Better help out your mates (esspeciallly RA players) with cheap shermans do deny enemie infantry. A line of M4 and M10 pared with M20 recon vehicles patroling against enemie recons is the best you can do for your team. Those can then focus on what is needed like arty or infantry etc.

In his mind probably yes, because you still need to spend resources on the sandbags and CPs on the unlocks and get a tank that still is barely worth it's unit cost.On the other hand, I personally think the shermans are a steal if you don't want them for fightig head on tank battles, and use them as core to play around with other units. Their purpose is not to be a frontline unit, it's a support vehicle that forces the enemy to bring specialized counters. keep them bind other units and they can earn their money back in time.

"Normal people belive... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.Engineers believe... if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet." - Scott Adams

Wake wrote:In your opinion, is there ever any reason to produce the 76mm Shermans? Are the cheap Easy Eights with all of the sandbags and free veterancy still bad?

Ok, here comes the funny thing.Nobody ever here played so much and so long with shermans as i do. The majority (actually all) armor players trying to get rather quickly Jacks/persh while they get maybe a jumb or single sherman. Before calli/jumbo swap the average ammount of shermans per game was exactly two: Jumbo and a normal one against inf.

Ive played game successfully without even unlocking pershings. I went through nightmares trying everything possible to play armor doc with all the support abilites.

Things since then changed. Calli came earlier, off map arty comes earlier, 90 mm became significantly better (once they bounced from tank IV´s), the 76 became better (yes, that gun was worse) and now has approx 49,5% pen chance vs tank IV H/J (when i started playing it was arround 30% or so), they are now faster and accelerate faster and so on.

So in comparision to older times, Yes! They are now worthy to get compared to what i was used to expect from shermans.

How its now?Well, still a waste most of the time. However, the fact that you get ammo upgrades at default, since the Allied war machinery replaces now more than just two tanks and only shermans (and normal td´s) and since AT guns have got aim time and shermans got a speed boost i would say that they can now have some sort of value. However, you wont kill much with them and they are much more a meatshield and good against vehicles.

Kr0noZ wrote:In his mind probably yes, because you still need to spend resources on the sandbags and CPs on the unlocks and get a tank that still is barely worth it's unit cost.On the other hand, I personally think the shermans are a steal if you don't want them for fightig head on tank battles, and use them as core to play around with other units. Their purpose is not to be a frontline unit, it's a support vehicle that forces the enemy to bring specialized counters. keep them bind other units and they can earn their money back in time.

Well, you make me laughing a bit when you say: "forces the enemy to bring specialized counters". You mean the Tier 2 50 mm AT guns that are swarming arround on the map in every game at every corner? You spend tons of MP and fuel to get your e8 available, overrepaired, sandbagged, and whatever just to see how a fucking T2 Toy gun pops up and shoots your shit tank to moon? 50 mm will always be there, no matter if you have only vehicles or shermans. Thats quite relaxing for axis. No need to actually get "specialized" counters. Spam stuarts or shermans, 50 mm will make it quick.Its this "specialized" sort of counter you talk about? The 50 mm AT has, without any AP round or ambush boost, approx 40% pen vs an e8 at max range when e8 has sandbags. And the e8 armor is already better compared to standard sherman armor.

Ive tried to play the way you describe. The good thing was, one e8 or sherman is easier and cheaper to build as my axis opponent can get any of his silly special halftracks. Destroy one mortar halftrack with an e8 and the tank was worth its cost.

If i like it? hell not. When i played BK doc a early coming Tank IV J/Ostwind/stug/Tank IV D spam could absolutely win the day. The tank IV´s are cheap and i still easily go head on so far on any allied tank except pershing. And those tank IV make up 3 out of 16 unlocks in Bk doc. The shermans and their support make up like 80% of armor doc and are still just driving arround to battle enemie support units and are, as you already figured out, "not to be a frontline unit(s)".

Put these things together and you see the absurdity.

The mistakes are:

1. Shermans are armor doc core units, but are not able to stand and survive on the frontline for really long. Not to mention to actually fight the lightest axis armor.2. Shermans do not force the enemie to get speciliazed counters. Hell it would be great if they would do at least this. While forcing the enemie to get 75 mm AT guns or even TH doc and slowly TD´s, the shermans meanwhile could harrass and cause havoc accross the map where these "specialized counters" cant be all at once. But the reality is: Glass canons that can stop a sherman are everywhere and fast. You get 50 mm literally right from the start (esspecially when you play high res for example), as non doc unit that is very mobile and buildable in every HQ regardless of the doctrine (allied cant get a similiar counter for example to stop tank IV´s, 17 pdr and 76 mm in FHQ´s required special docs).3. BK was and is simply "spam unfriendly". The only "spam" that i used to change the tide and win games was the "tank IV spam" which was not really a spam except you consider three units of one type during a game as spam. But even when the first wave wasnt successfull, further spam is usless. And that goes for shermans even more as for Tank IV´s.

The armor doc (and US armor in regards to shermans) would be much more successfull if they would be a bit more expensive and therefore a bit better, esspecially when it comes to armor protection against the so far lightest sort of anti tank weapons. Also the cost drop after mass prod unlock is just too much. Its over 100 MP. But i think you guys know my thinking of too crazy focus on mass productions in BK.

If this what kronoz said would be actually the truth, it would be huge step forward. I am not expecting to get head on alone against panthers or tigers. That shouldnt happen. Just if the shermans wouldnt have to take so massive punishment from cheap and early medium AT, that would be great. The mobility and harassment card could be played out really well. And if the 76 would be just slightly less gamble when facing Tank IV´s.... damn. when you say, Kronoz, you "don't want them for fightig head on tank battles", did you include the moment when an easy eight faces a Tank IV F2, H or J? Its one thing to avoid battleing Panthers and bigger stuff, but tank IV´s? And what kind of units you want to "bind" and "play arround" if not medium tanks and stugs? The ammount of units you want "to bind" arent that great anymore for the easy eight. Against inf but also halftracks you can choose the standard sherman. Fighting AT guns in their current state is suicide anyways. I must have missed a huge ammount of units with which " i can play arround" with easy eights. We dont even have to talk about the 76 sherman, or?

Good medium AT protection, reliable anti medium armor gun and, before i forget, a reload speed that allows me to actually to shoot at my opponents within a given time.

at this point: @wake and Kronoz: The 76 shermans reloading so slow that you will barely ever get a second shot out of the barrel. So even in the very lucky case you penetrated a target just once, he will fire back twice and penetrate you most likely. At the end, everything is bad on them, except you want to hunt the so numerous occuring axis Halftracks. They need always someone to play with.And dont get mad when your first shot failed to cause some damage. Go to your tank factory and put the next in production. They dont cost you much.

Warhawks97 wrote:How its now?Well, still a waste most of the time. However, the fact that you get ammo upgrades at default, since the Allied war machinery replaces now more than just two tanks and only shermans (and normal td´s) and since AT guns have got aim time and shermans got a speed boost i would say that they can now have some sort of value. However, you wont kill much with them and they are much more a meatshield and good against vehicles.

Hmm, you won't kill much with them? I don't know what you are talking about mate, but I think I've actually killed Tigers with them... So ^^

I honestly don't share the same feeling as Hawks about Shermans here, in my humble opinion... Shermans now are just as deadly as Panzer IVs.Also, 57mm AT guns don't struggle too much penetrating Stugs... Although it's true they might not be too good against Panzer.IVs (despite they can actually still penetrate quite well sometimes, and not rarely btw) yet, I would have to say that the 50mm Pak can also fail miserably penetrating Shermans, and I have seen it happen actually too many times.. in fact, I even saw Pak40 bounce off a sandbagged 76 Sherman 4 times in a row!

And keep in mind that the basic price of the Panzer.IVH is actually considered expensive when compared with Shermans, so don't forget tank hunter doctrine can't bring them as cheap as Blitz doctrine. Therefore if anything, it's still justified...

Lastly;

Warhawks97 wrote:Well, you make me laughing a bit when you say: "forces the enemy to bring specialized counters". You mean the Tier 2 50 mm AT guns that are swarming arround on the map in every game at every corner? You spend tons of MP and fuel to get your e8 available, overrepaired, sandbagged, and whatever just to see how a fucking T2 Toy gun pops up and shoots your shit tank to moon? 50 mm will always be there, no matter if you have only vehicles or shermans. Thats quite relaxing for axis. No need to actually get "specialized" counters. Spam stuarts or shermans, 50 mm will make it quick.Its this "specialized" sort of counter you talk about?

Hmm, well.. a bloody cheap 76mm AT gun can also send your Tiger to the moon by the way. And let's not speak about the cost of the Tiger... Pak40 on the other hand can't do much against the Pershing by the way.

And man, I think I am not wrong if I have to remind you that this is supposed to be a place where we tell tips to inexperienced players so they can improve themselves.. and not a place where we are supposed to discuss about balance!

Well, my adivce is then simple. Make sure you have enough Td´s placed in ambush. Later at least a jackson. Shermans with HE vs inf yeah.... e8 when the enemie feels that he needs many halftracks. The 8 is really good due to its speed killing such stuff.

So the 50 mm is more or less twice as good as the 57 mm. Feelings might be different because the Tank IV´s are fielded in less numbers and so every pen chance keeps in memory. An e8 being penetrated is often unnoticed as the next e8 might bounce off two shots.

But generally, considering 50 mm is being placed in ambush usually, it will penetrate fully sandbagged e8 just as often as they bounce.

Considering now that we have just talked about "forcing the enemie to get specialized counters", i can say its not the case. A decent ammount of 50 mm (in 4 vs 4 your team can get simply many of them) and you will be save from any sort of harrassment.

And considering all shermans, not just e8, they are not really good in standing anything.

Maybe this new knowledge helps you by making your decision whether to get shermans or not.

At vcoh the Sherman was equal or better than the PIV and the 57 mm was better than the Pak 38. And historically it was like that too if you consider P IV H/J vs M4a376 (or PIV E vs basic Sherman)

However BK is a germanophile universe/science fiction game/alternative history game. It changed but very slowly last 5 years. Now it is a pvp mod (for tiger1996 it always have been, but really it had not always be like that) things cant change quickly. Usually pvp players dont like drastic changes. Big changes bound players to learn again how to play well. It is unconfortable, you have to take risks and by the way loose a game.

Pak 50 wasnt even a threat again first T34 in 1941, how do you want it can be a threat against an m4a376 in 1944, especially pzgr 40 for pak 38 was no more available in 1944 ?

m4a3 76 in a 33 tons tank with a a 500 hp engine. PIV H is around 25 tons with a 300 HP engine.

76 mm L 55 gun was equal to the german 75 mm L 48 (both firing standard munition ; pzgr 39 and M62)M4 serie was more easy to target than the PIV. It was structural, M4 was higher to be able to accept radial engine primary designed for planes.

Not only the m1 57 mm at gun was greatly superior to the pak 38 but M4a3 armour cant be compared with the PIV H one.Roughly Sherman M4A3 frontal armour is the same than the Churchill one, around 92 mm. (the sound you heard is Tiger1996 falling from his chair). M4a3 armour is a modern sloped design. PIVH is and obsolete armour design with 80 mm frontal on hull but only 50 mm on turret.Anyway the Sherman is a quater heavier than the PIV but Sherman have still a better tons/hp ratio.

Now, just keep in mind Blitzkrieg is not a realistic mod, nor it is historically credible so far. It is more likely a fantasy simulation where axis would have win the war And I would agree with that to have a correct balance. Problem is, it is more close form a german(ophile) fantasm than a fantasy simulation.

Last Bk is now a pvp game ; like said that means ; only slight changes can be acceptable. Summary Shermans would worth somewhere between 2022 and 2027.

Jalis wrote:I had this discussion at bk forum even before Warhawk join it.

At vcoh the Sherman was equal or better than the PIV and the 57 mm was better than the Pak 38. And historically it was like that too if you consider P IV H/J vs M4a376 (or PIV E vs basic Sherman)

However BK is a germanophile universe/science fiction game/alternative history game. It changed but very slowly last 5 years. Now it is a pvp mod (for tiger1996 it always have been, but really it had not always be like that) things cant change quickly. Usually pvp players dont like drastic changes. Big changes bound players to learn again how to play well. It is unconfortable, you have to take risks and by the way loose a game.

Pak 50 wasnt even a threat again first T34 in 1941, how do you want it can be a threat against an m4a376 in 1944, especially pzgr 40 for pak 38 was no more available in 1944 ?

m4a3 76 in a 33 tons tank with a a 500 hp engine. PIV H is around 25 tons with a 300 HP engine.

76 mm L 55 gun was equal to the german 75 mm L 48 (both firing standard munition ; pzgr 39 and M62)M4 serie was more easy to target than the PIV. It was structural, M4 was higher to be able to accept radial engine primary designed for planes.

Not only the m1 57 mm at gun was greatly superior to the pak 38 but M4a3 armour cant be compared with the PIV H one.Roughly Sherman M4A3 frontal armour is the same than the Churchill one, around 92 mm. (the sound you heard is Tiger1996 falling from his chair). M4a3 armour is a modern sloped design. PIVH is and obsolete armour design with 80 mm frontal on hull but only 50 mm on turret.Anyway the Sherman is a quater heavier than the PIV but Sherman have still a better tons/hp ratio.

Now, just keep in mind Blitzkrieg is not a realistic mod, nor it is historically credible so far. It is more likely a fantasy simulation where axis would have win the war And I would agree with that to have a correct balance. Problem is, it is more close form a german(ophile) fantasm than a fantasy simulation.

Last Bk is now a pvp game ; like said that means ; only slight changes can be acceptable. Summary Shermans would worth somewhere between 2022 and 2027.

I think in BK Sherman 76' (fully upgraded with sandbags) are somewhat equal to PZ4 J/H but im not sure maybe J' and H' (J with side armor upgrade) are a little more powerfull like 5% maybe, regarding 50mm pak i think this one is overperforming for his price, i dont care if historically was a shit or not (since we have lots of inconsistencies historically compared in-game),it can be one of your most usefull weapons on all phases of the game wich i believe its bullshit, but wathever after recent changes to comets i guess we also found another target for those 50 mm Pak, how much armors we have left that can survive to them? ¿Pershings and Churchills?

My advice to devs would be at least, to fix the accuracy of shermans in movement.

Both could deploy the same amount of shermans and panzerIV's thanks to low MP upkeep of WH.I would really dont recomend to have more than 1 or 2 Sherman deployed at the same time, upkeep will kill you.

regarding 50mm pak i think this one is overperforming for his price, i dont care if historically was a shit or not (since we have lots of inconsistencies historically compared in-game),it can be one of your most usefull weapons on all phases of the game wich i believe its bullshit, but wathever after recent changes to comets i guess we also found another target for those 50 mm Pak, how much armors we have left that can survive to them? ¿Pershings and Churchills?

yes. Only churchills and Pershings and jumbo (even those get penetrated sometimes) can stand the 50 mm. And still the 50 mm is the best against those due to the rocket shot ability. So, technically, I´ve never been in the need for anything more than 50 mm. Its an ass saving weapon at any stage. Best against vehicles (esspecially now with that aim time thing) and highly valuable against everything but the most special tanks (which are limited still) which are still killable.

gameplay wise, the 50 mm could be just as effective against shermans as the 57 is against Tank IV´s (historcally it would be the other way arround as currently in BK but for the gameplay better). And as we all know that Tank IV´s can die to 57 mm, the 50 mm would still be a threat to be considered by shermans, but wouldnt kill them as easily as they kill light vehicles and stuart tanks. The shermans in general could be considered as "Tanks" in the first time of BK history and not just slower but more healthy vehicles.

I think in BK Sherman 76' (fully upgraded with sandbags) are somewhat equal to PZ4 J/H but im not sure maybe J' and H' (J with side armor upgrade) are a little more powerfull like 5% maybe,

armor for tank IV is quite weird. Actually we have 4 very different tank IV´s but only three target types. IV D (30 mm armor, only BK doc and penetrated by all at guns), Normal one (used by all others) and tank IV_skirts (used by H and J after having skirts). The H and J have a special 0.8 received pen modifier. Technically even the 75 mm guns would penetrate Tank_IV armor reliable (Stubby versions and F2) but then the J would be too vulnerable. So instead we have the pen of the 76 mm extremly low even against the 50 mm stubby tank IV´s which must be at arround 65%-70% (i am currently not at ome to check it). Against the J even lower. However, the skirt type armor is even better+ the H/J reduced pen modifier. So the 76 drops below 50% pen chance.

Technically, that weirdnes could be solved when J would spawn with skirts at default. Thus skirt type could be given at default to tank IV J and H. Overrated Tank IV armor types from stubby tank IV´s and F2 wouldnt be necessary anymore as well as these modifiers on H and J that are messing a few things up. The guns could be adjusted more accuarte against any of these three major Tank IV types and their armor strenght.

Taking this + the vast difference of 50 mm vs sherman and 57 mm vs Tank IV into acc, H/J with skirts offer a way better protection to enemie guns. The axis 75 mm pens sandbagged 76 still reliable (approx 61%) and thats despite the cost of sandbags. And the upkeep thing is not considered yet.

My advice to devs would be at least, to fix the accuracy of shermans in movement.

Its so far same for all tanks and e8 has the best moving accuracy so far. The reload speed is in my opinion the bigger issue. Its endless long despite the fact that shermans were known for their comfortable cmbat room and easy reload (thats one reason why they didnt want the 17 pdr which hwas way harder to reload). So as trade off for the generally bad pen power, the shermans could reload just as fast as tank IV´s that are real quick shooters in BK.

Both could deploy the same amount of shermans and panzerIV's thanks to low MP upkeep of WH.I would really dont recomend to have more than 1 or 2 Sherman deployed at the same time, upkeep will kill you.

Well, MP wise not after upgrades (but thats over 400 MP to spend first) and fuel wise you reduce it to almost that of tank IV´s upkeep.