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In general eating raw meat and fish (sashimi) is frowned upon, but there are those who argue that provided the fish is very fresh, prepared in a hygenic manner and your numbers are "ok" then you should have no problems.

I really find this as much of an issue as regards to the pozzie in question's cd4 level as much as I do the hygenic quality of the prep area. My immunity is not limited at the moment, thank you very much.

My first ID doc, back in like 1990, gave me a video about nutrition facts for people with HIV. It warned about raw foods including sushi, bleu cheese, casear dressing (raw eggs) etc. Of course, those were different times. I personally detest sushi and just about everything fish, but that's just me.

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I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

I'll just be clear about what I said previously -- if I had a low cd4 count (and the conservative in me would include anything below 3/400) I'd not touch raw things. Once you get above that there is less risk, though certainly still some risk. Once you're up to 7/800 you're fairly "normal" again so I see no more harm than anyone else.

Most caesar dressing, mayonnaise etc. that comes from a grocery store in a jar is not an issue as far as I know, Betty (they use some pasteurized alternative). It's not the same as being made from raw eggs at home -- and by the way, if you've never made your own mayonnaise from scratch you do NOT know what you are missing.

When my CD4 count was low, I was advised not to eat Sushi, and to avoid raw eggs like those in eggnog. I was also advised to avoid Oysters and Beef Tartare. Now that my CD4 count is higher that might be moot advice, but I wouldn't touch anything on that list to begin with. I'd puke.

Well, my CD4 count is "normal" most of the time but fish has consistently been something that I watch out for. I dont mean raw fish only, I'm talking about fish that has gotten old or not handled properly. Fish prepared at home is not what I refer to, but rather fish prepared at a restaurant. If its a good seafood house or sushi house with a good reputation thats a good bet. But still, foolishly, I have gotten really really sick from eating fish that was not prepared properly (or was old) several times and I KNEW I should not order fish at the type place we were at.The first time I got sick from bad fish was at a new-ish restaurant that a freind took me to. He wanted to show off this place. I didnt like that the fish wasnt well cooked and sent it back. To no avail....that night I shit the bed twice and had stomach cramps like you would not believe.Kurt and I were at a barbeque and the guys planning the event had gone to great effort to buy a HUGE piece of good tuna fish and cooked it on the grill. Kurt and I did not eat any. Everyone who ate some of it got sick.The most recent time I got sick from eating fish was at a spot we go to a lot. This restaurant had hired a new chef and had a new menu. I tried the "fish and chips". Got sick that night. I will never again order fish there.I just get tired of watching out for fish so i usually dont order it. And the sad thing is that Kurt will not eat any seafood at all...not even shrimp....so I never get any at home.

One can get food poisoning from lots of things at ANY cd4 count. I never got food poisoning from anything during all of those years I had a low cd4 count, but then got it just last year (I've had +1000 cd4 count now for 18 months) from eating a "Bentley" salad at Salad Works.

My first ID doc, back in like 1990, gave me a video about nutrition facts for people with HIV. It warned about raw foods including sushi, bleu cheese, casear dressing (raw eggs) etc. Of course, those were different times. I personally detest sushi and just about everything fish, but that's just me.

I only eat fish prepared in three ways: *tuna in a can *salmon in a can *fish sticksI once had a date while in Dallas who took me to the Antares, the restaurant at the top of that revolving ball. I was in shorts, and a tie was required. Overlooking my shorts, and furnishing a tie we were seated and I had to go to the bathroom. Upon my return , there were Cocktails already served, James knew what I liked as we had been at a club 'Happy Hour" and I sat watching the scenery slowly change as the reaturant revolved showing sights of Dallas-to Fort Worth. After a whiile , being hungry, I realized that I had not placed an order for food as the waiter started setting up for food delivery and James hastily replied that he hoped I did not mind, but he had ordered for me while in the bathroom. A huge reddend lobster with yellowed eyes and white stuff vomiting forth from its mouth was set before me. I was horrified and like a petulant child whined that I don't eat seafood and was almost ready to throw up. He called the waiter over and gave the indication to me to order what I wanted. We spent the evening while he ate both lobsters while I happily munched out on a cheeseburger and fries

« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 02:12:44 PM by rondrond »

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"I'm not done yet"....Glen Campbell

"I may not be exactly where I want to be, but I sure as Hell am not where I was" Wynnona Judd

Diagnosed/HIV1993AZTNorvir1994-2001Crixivan/Epivir/ZeritNo Meds for 7 Years

Ron...You and Kurt would get along famously. Kurt will eat tuna sandwiches he makes with tuna from a can....only albacore and no oil....packed in water. And of course he fixes a lunch made up entirely of Mrs Pauls fish sticks. There are lots of good Italian seafood places here and I do like mussles with marinara sauce. My motto usually is eat seafood where it is the main thing on the menu ...not an afterthought. That pretty much assures its fresh. Joel

Ron...You and Kurt would get along famously. Kurt will eat tuna sandwiches he makes with tuna from a can....only albacore and no oil....packed in water. And of course he fixes a lunch made up entirely of Mrs Pauls fish sticks. There are lots of good Italian seafood places here and I do like mussles with marinara sauce. My motto usually is eat seafood where it is the main thing on the menu ...not an afterthought. That pretty much assures its fresh. Joel

I like my fishsticks with tater tots. I should have felt bad that he had to pay for two lobsters, (I understand that they are not cheap) but I thought that he should have asked me first, or let me order. ahh. the old days when I was young and could get away with stuff like that...

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"I'm not done yet"....Glen Campbell

"I may not be exactly where I want to be, but I sure as Hell am not where I was" Wynnona Judd

Diagnosed/HIV1993AZTNorvir1994-2001Crixivan/Epivir/ZeritNo Meds for 7 Years

I also stay away from sushi. I don't like gambling. And I also stay away from tap water, because I know more than one PWA who died from complications from cryptosporidiosis, which is not filtered from most tap water, even in large metropolitan areas, and is not filtered from a large number of bottled waters as well. I boil all drinking water for one minute and then refrigerate it. I try to stay away from all raw foods, including salads I haven't prepared myself. Of course, I have long since stopped being bothered by those who accuse me of being insane.

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

I don't much like sushi, but I love sashimi - a big bowl of raw maguro is my dish. And I do eat it fairly often - that is, whenever I go to Bangkok, and it never occcurred to me to worry. I also eat a lot of fish in general, mostly cooked of course. Had mussels today.

because I know more than one PWA who died from complications from cryptosporidiosis, which is not filtered from most tap water, even in large metropolitan areas, and is not filtered from a large number of bottled waters as well.

Well, leave it to an engineer like me to pick apart an issue, but not all sushiis raw fish. The word "sushi" actually refers to the rice. There are many varieties of sushi that do not include raw fish (e.g. I believe eel and mackerelare traditionally cooked). Tuna is traditionally raw.

My point being that even if you felt that eating raw fish isn't appropriate foryour situation, you still have options regarding sushi.

Regards,

Henry

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"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love." - Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

cryptosporidiosis was generally a concern early in the AIDS epidemic, and indeed when I was diagnosed originally and had AIDS defining cd4 counts I was advised of this danger and that I should filter my water. I got in the habit of doing so and have continued to do so. However, there is no medical reason that I need to do this -- I just do it because it seems to taste better. IIRC Brita filters crypto out, but PUR does not.

If there was some huge, widespread danger with tap water you would most assuredly be advised by your doctor and encounter posters at your ASO.

"Although cryptosporidiosis can be acquired at any time during the course of HIV infection, major morbidity and mortality occur almost exclusively in patients with CD4 counts below 180 cells/mm3; above this level, spontaneous recovery generally occurs."

Well, leave it to an engineer like me to pick apart an issue, but not all sushiis raw fish. The word "sushi" actually refers to the rice. There are many varieties of sushi that do not include raw fish (e.g. I believe eel and mackerelare traditionally cooked). Tuna is traditionally raw.

My point being that even if you felt that eating raw fish isn't appropriate foryour situation, you still have options regarding sushi.

Regards,

Henry

Yeah, this is why I like to eat the spider roll, (my favorite) and I also like the green mussels. not to much in the way of raw fish otherwise, except the tuna, love the spicy tuna!!

In a follow up meeting with my ID doc, he suggested I eat more fish. I said I eat Fish Sticks and frozen French Fries at least once a week Have the best day

A doc dispensing incomplete advice!?!? Not all fish is created equal, and the nutritional gift fish can offer is omega-3 fatty acids. Tuna and salmon are notably good sources of omega-3s, but fish sticks are not. Fries from white potatoes won't redeem the fish sticks.

Thanks to all that responded. My friend was in town and wanted to take me out for sushi (on him). Since I wasn't sure about the safety of raw fish and us pozzies I chose the $40 filet mignon and said "Neener neener!" He was not amused.

In general eating raw meat and fish (sashimi) is frowned upon, but there are those who argue that provided the fish is very fresh, prepared in a hygenic manner and your numbers are "ok" then you should have no problems.

Well, as the one of the food-borne illness aficionado at AIDSMeds, I figured I had better weigh in on this. I just recovered from a bout caused by undercooked scallops a few weeks ago.

I think I have been ill from food-borne contaminants more often than anyone else around here. But I still love sushi, sashimi, oysters on the half shell, steak tartar (the real stuff made from horse, not beef), etc.

The bottom line is not that people with high CD4s can't become ill from something they ate, it is that they are better able to recover should they do so.

If your CD4s are low, you stand a greater chance of developing secondary or more serious infections.

This also goes for parasites, which are prone to be found in uncooked animal products. That also is why it can be a wise to filter your tap water to get rid of things like giardia.

The bottom line is to use common sense. If your T cells are below 400, you may want to eshew the raw goodies for the time being till things improve.

I know one person who washes all of his fruits and veggies regardless of where they came from. He even washes bananas. When he explained why, I understood and concur.

That said, common sense and a bit of caution when necessary can really help a person stay healthy and much happier.

The last person who posted on this site about why it might be prudent to wash banana skins before peeling was hounded off the site and given a permanent ban. I hope this does not happen again, but I wouldn't be surprised, Mark, if you and I, "food-borne aficionados" that we are, are accused of being nervous nellies, etc. Sticks and bones, as they say....

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"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

We cook foods to make them taste better, render them more digestable and kill unwanted pathogens. Raw meat, eggs and fish should viewed with suspicion by anyone, particularly those of us with compromised immune systems. So should unpasteurised dairy products.

It's important to remember that seafood spoils very quickly even in the best of conditions. Moreover most of the meat we buy today is raised in mass production feedlots and slaughtered in assembly line abbatoirs. The animals spend most of their lives in cramped, close quarters standing in their own shit.

This isn't to say that what you buy at the shop isn't hygienic as such, but it's certainly intended to be cooked. Rarefied delicacies such as steak tartare and carpaccio come from cultural traditions where livestock was raised and kept in verdent fields, before being killed and butchered in small, home-style operations.

So people should do as they please. But remember there are certain risks (HIV notwithstanding) associated with eating raw animal products. Just because it hasn't happened to the Philodendron (god amongst us that he is) doesn't mean it won't happen to you.

Actually, contrary to how I may come off in this thread, I do not generally partake of sushi. However, this is simply because I don't enjoy it, not because of any great fear. Red meat I always take at medium rare. And if I want 6 week aged …poisses I will eat it without regret.

I definitely agree with Matty about seafood/fish. I only purchase such products from a reputable, specialty monger. It's worth the extra price.

I'm pretty conservative with this subject, but I also don't believe in living in fear and going overboard with it either. HIV is not a great reason to stop enjoying good food. As stated, I managed to avoid food poisoning for 42 years, and then caught it even though my cd4 count was in the 1,000's, and from a product one would not imagined getting it from. I recovered within 48 hours, and I'd hate to imagine what that recovery would be like if I'd had 200 cd4's.