Re: James Laurinaitis

Originally Posted by HUbison

Which is exactly why some fans want to point fingers at him. Some fans don't like what they see in the offense, but don't know exactly how to diagnose what they see, so.......just blame the QB. Same thing on defense. An opponent doesn't get shut out, but the fan isn't exactly sure why......blame the defense's QB.

When Laurinaitis is clearly out of position and being blocked out of plays to even the casual observer's eye, a little bit of concern is warranted.

Laurinaitis leads the league in solo tackles. Kuechly is the only MIKE with more total tackles.

Tony Romo is 3rd in the league in passing yards. Does that mean he's better than Peyton, Eli, and Rodgers?

The tackle statistic doesn't tell the whole story and I hope a fan of your caliber realizes that. Just because a player has a lot of solo tackles doesn't mean they're necessarily "good" tackles. The tackle could have been made 10 yards past the line of scrimmage after he was blocked out of a play and had to run down the RB. Obviously not something I would expect from a "top-tier" LB. But sadly a bad tackle counts the same as a good tackle on paper so that does cause some confusion.

Yea, but HUb, look at JL's sack total. He only has 1 sack.

True. And the top MIKE in the league only had 3 sacks. That's like trying to gauge a FB by how many rushing yards he has. Good to see, but far from indicative.

No one is worried about his sack total. Let's not rush to build a straw man argument. That's like someone saying Bradford sucks because his rushing yards is lower than Newton's...and although there are some big Bradford haters on this forum, even they have not said anything of the like.

Yea, but HUb...but HUb...what about his pass coverage. He only has 1 interception.

Again, the top MIKE in the league only has 3. The fact that JL has even 1 puts him in 4th place.

Again, straw man argument.

The MIKE directs the defense, and gets to the ball carrier. They don't typically rush the passer. They don't typically haul down passes. Could JL improve his game? Yes, just like the other 52 members of the roster.

Again, trying to reinforce your straw man points. The issue here is not his interceptions and sack totals.

There's plenty of things that need to be fixed on the defense.....both Safeties, at least one OLB, youth & experience, an offense that will keep them off the field for longer than 3 plays, etc. But I honestly think trying to pin MIKE as a position that needs to be addressed is not the way to go.

The OP never stated that MLB was a position of need. He claims Laurinaitis' play on the field is a bit concerning, and the truth of the matter is that he is right.

Originally Posted by AvengerRam

What fans are correctly noticing is that JL's "impact plays" (i.e. TFL, sacks, Int., FF, FR, passes defended) are a bit down. I think that is partly due to the fact that the safety play (particuarly FS) has been poor and, as a result, the Rams can't afford to have JL selling out to try to make big plays in the backfield.

No. The issue on hand is his performance on the field regarding his ability to get to the ball carrier effectively. Clever attempt though to spin the argument in a different way by redirecting the OP's concerns into something completely unrelated.

To reiterate, JL's lack of "impact plays" is not the topic of discussion right now nor is it concerning anyone.

OP's concern of JL in being soft at the point of attack and ability to shed blocks ≠ His interception and sack stats

Whatever you think of his performance, one thing can't be denied. He is the the "QB of the defense." On many plays, he looks like Peyton Manning before the snap - barking out signals and moving players around to adjust to the offensive scheme.

What does this have to do with anything? So because he is the de facto "QB of the defense" he has free rein to under perform?

Obviously we all appreciate JL's intensity as no one is questioning his vocal or IQ skills on the field, but again the topic on hand is how he does not look like the same player we have seen in previous years.

Originally Posted by Torry Holt

But I must have forgot something, don't start a thread if you don't have more than 3000 posts or if you don't own the truth... Stop being so cynical.

Re: James Laurinaitis

This seems like a familiar argument pattern:

Side No. 1 (JL's role has changed somewhat, but he's still peforming at a high level)
He calls the defensive plays.
He has a sub-par SLB on one side of him and sub-par safeties behind him.
He leads the league in solo tackles.
The Rams' run defense has gone from allowing 152 yards/game and 4.8 yards/carry in 2011 to allowing 117 yards/game and 4.2 yards/carry in 2012.
His "impact plays" (sacks, interceptions, passes defended) are down from last year.

Side No. 2 (JL is having a down year)He "does not look like the same player we have seen in previous years."

Hmmm.....

You know, my kids are both competing in High School debate tournaments. A couple of weeks ago, I volunteered and spend an entire Saturday judging debates. I judged the kids on two criteria (1) presentation, and (2) support for arguments.

As this is not an verbal medium, I can only judge on the second criteria.

Re: James Laurinaitis

Originally Posted by AvengerRam

This seems like a familiar argument pattern:

Side No. 1 (JL's role has changed somewhat, but he's still peforming at a high level)
He calls the defensive plays.
He has a sub-par SLB on one side of him and sub-par safeties behind him.
He leads the league in solo tackles.
The Rams' run defense has gone from allowing 152 yards/game and 4.8 yards/carry in 2011 to allowing 117 yards/game and 4.2 yards/carry in 2012.
His "impact plays" (sacks, interceptions, passes defended) are down from last year.

1. The fact that he calls the defensive plays has nothing to do with anything related to the OP's original topic.

2. And the past two years we had two sub-par LBs and two sub-par safeties around him.

3. Like I stated earlier, if stats told the whole story then Tony Romo is one of the top QBs in the league.

4. Hmm...I guess the addition of Michael Brockers, Kendall Langford and Jo Lonn Dunbar has nothing to
do with the improvement.

5. Again with the "impact plays". Clearly you have not read any of the previous posts.

Side No. 2 (JL is having a down year)He "does not look like the same player we have seen in previous years."

Why yes, that is the concern of this thread. You're finally getting it!

You know, my kids are both competing in High School debate tournaments. A couple of weeks ago, I volunteered and spend an entire Saturday judging debates. I judged the kids on two criteria (1) presentation, and (2) support for arguments.

As this is not an verbal medium, I can only judge on the second criteria.

Guess who I'd give the "win" to on this one?

Just what we need. Mini-Avengers running around loose shoving all those who disagree with them into the moldy lockers as they cry for help from the torment that is the debate team.

Good thing I have to deal with the clowns better known as corporate lawyers on the reg to prepare for this forum. I swear...some of those guys shouldn't be qualified to do what they do.

Anyways, overall your post doesn't really have a rebuttal against my post so...I'm going to be modest and say I barely scraped by with the "win".

Re: James Laurinaitis

When you bring some facts to the table, I'll give you a rebuttal. Until then, why would I bother?

Clearly you're just ignoring my posts now.

So you want to play it that way. So be it.

Alright then, the original topic was of Laurinaitis being soft at the point of contact and not being in position to make critical tackles.

What facts have you brought to this discussion that is relevant to the OP's concerns?

Solo tackles? Doesn't tell the whole story.

Sacks? Not relevant.

Interceptions? Not relevant.

Forced Fumbles? Not relevant.

The only fact that might be relevant is that our run defense has improved statistically. However, you are ignoring the additions of Brockers, Langford and Dunbar.

So tell me Avenger, how is it that you have proved the OP wrong?

And to everyone in general who is using the excuse of the lack of talent around Laurinaitis as to why he is underperforming.
I do not know which Rams team you have been following, but we had the same safeties last year...as well as one of the same OLB and one OLB that was even worse than our current one.

Re: James Laurinaitis

The thing is Avenger, it's not easy to bring some facts. I was saying that stats was not my concern but more film. That's why I was asking about opinion. Stats in defense does not mean a lot about real performance, especially tackles. We don't know number of snaps, Bradford and Luck does not have the same passing stats, Luck threw of course a lot more passes (not even mentioning the supporting cast)...

I know JL is a good NFL player and I'm glad we have him in our team, but a lot of people on ClanRam, including me, was thinking JL could become a great player this year. He maybe will be an All Pro player but he is not now, I was expecting a better season from him that's it.

"Before the gates of excellence the high gods have placed sweat; long is the road thereto and rough and steep at first; but when the heights are reached, then there is ease, though grievously hard in the winning." --- Hesiod

Re: James Laurinaitis

Fine. Since the only objective source of analysis, ie. stats, has been deemed taboo for this conversation, I will join in with purely subjective viewpoints, and say....

And I guess we could go back and forth with what we "see" on our TV screen, but that's boils us down to nothing more than amateur art critics, so I'll pass.

The majority of posts on this forum are subjective anyways (that's just how it is on a sports forum). Usually the addition of stats benefits an argument, but as seeing that the stats provided doesn't relate to the OP's original concern, I don't think I'm being unreasonable by saying what I said.

....he looks to me like he's playing quite well.

That is your subjective opinion and I respect that. I disagree but I think that's what the OP wanted to hear this whole time which are the subjective opinions of posters on a forum he frequents and not "impact stats" to try to boost his perception of JL's performance.

Re: James Laurinaitis

Originally Posted by RockinRam

The majority of posts on this forum are subjective anyways (that's just how it is on a sports forum). Usually the addition of stats benefits an argument, but as seeing that the stats provided doesn't relate to the OP's original concern, I don't think I'm being unreasonable by saying what I said.

That is your subjective opinion and I respect that. I disagree but I think that's what the OP wanted to hear this whole time which are the subjective opinions of posters on a forum he frequents and not "impact stats" to try to boost his perception of JL's performance.

There is nothing to argue here Rockin... Clearly you are 100% correct, and the real and rational Rams fans on this forum realize it. AV clearly doesn't want to be incorrect.

JL's play has been down. Thats all there is too it. You dont need any stats to show it. And even if you did get stats, it wouldn't matter because you'd still be wrong.

You dont have stats vs AV, you're wrong. You get stats for AV (Like I have multiple times from PFF), and those stats are inaccurate, stupid, and you're still wrong.

Re: James Laurinaitis

Laurinaitis leads the league in solo tackles. Kuechly is the only MIKE with more total tackles.
Tony Romo is 3rd in the league in passing yards. Does that mean he's better than Peyton, Eli, and Rodgers?

The tackle statistic doesn't tell the whole story and I hope a fan of your caliber realizes that. Just because a player has a lot of solo tackles doesn't mean they're necessarily "good" tackles. The tackle could have been made 10 yards past the line of scrimmage after he was blocked out of a play and had to run down the RB. Obviously not something I would expect from a "top-tier" LB. But sadly a bad tackle counts the same as a good tackle on paper so that does cause some confusion.

Sosa this makes no sense. Are you telling me you watch every game. every week of every team in detail to form your opinion of players? Not possible. We all use stats to form opinions of players. Yes stats don't always tell the whole story but in this case it does provide data to indicate how well he is playing.

I asked you this before when this came up and you never answered. So I will ask you again, If tackles are not the number one source for grading a LB what is? How do you grade a LBs?