The issue isn't that it affects the environment, which I highly doubt anyone even cares about at this point. The issue is that it encroaches on the
Natives' land, which everyone seems to be avoiding. People say they have nothing to do with the past, but they are basically perpetuating their
ancestors' sins, just so that they can save money and not have to suffer(going to war is not an excuse, any war with the Chinese will most likely
involve nukes and total annihilation, so why worry about that? Plus, the U.S has so many allies that I highly doubt they'll ever be put in a
precarious situation.)

Honestly, at this point, why even pretend that we have any morality at all? We are slowly falling into the Chinese's mentality where the strong eats
the weak, which if you're a believer in evolution, is probably nothing wrong. It appears that inevitably, only a few countries should exist, the rest
must either subjugate, or become extinct, a dangerous mentality to be sure, but if we don't care for the environment, for animals, then it stands to
reason that certain ethnicities and races should also not exist. It's still "survival of the fittest," disguised with some concepts as to make it
appear that we're morally superior to others.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: rnaa
I read somewhere there would be 50 permanent jobs. I know big whoop.

Yes, pipelines are very efficient. The way the project was sold using 'jobs' was a lie. Lots of work to lay the pipeline but almost nothing after
that.

Another big problem I have with the pipeline is that the government is going to use eminent domain to seize private property for a private company
that isn't even a US company. Seriously WTF.

I fully understand your point on eminent domain. It is pretty heavy handed. The problem governments have is that sometimes the benefits to the
overall country are so important that the loss to that group of people is worth it. Clearly eminent domain needs to be a court monitored process
instead of a dictate from the government.

In this case I believe the Oil security provided by the pipeline is worth the eminent domain forcing people off some land. Many wars have been created
over Oil and Oil security. It is a real serious concern. I do feel terrible for the ranchers and people who lose the use of their land.

originally posted by: np6888
The issue isn't that it affects the environment, which I highly doubt anyone even cares about at this point. The issue is that it encroaches on the
Natives' land, which everyone seems to be avoiding.

You're right, absolutely! People avoid talking about Native rights for a good reason...it's complicated beyond belief!

I don't know if Native groups are going to band together and give 100% to stop this project. I'm sure they could if they really wanted to...but
it's a brutal fight and the Federal government in the US doesn't play by the rules like they swear to uphold when they take their jobs.

I like to think that what is good for the country is good for Natives. As long as they get a fair voice in the process then I try to be satisfied. Of
course Natives have never had a 'fair voice' so I'm really just avoiding the issue. But at least I know I'm avoiding it!

I fully understand your point on eminent domain. It is pretty heavy handed. The problem governments have is that sometimes the benefits to the overall
country are so important that the loss to that group of people is worth it. Clearly eminent domain needs to be a court monitored process instead of a
dictate from the government.

In this case there is ZERO benefit to the 'overall country'.

In this case I believe the Oil security provided by the pipeline is worth the eminent domain forcing people off some land. Many wars have been created
over Oil and Oil security. It is a real serious concern. I do feel terrible for the ranchers and people who lose the use of their land.

'Oil security' for who, exactly? Most of that oil will be exported either refined or as raw crude. It is one of the dirtiest crudes on the planet
(its more bitumen than oil), so it will be expensive to refine and the refining process will have very dirty by-products.

Both sides are right here. The fall in the oil price makes the pipeline decision more important, not less.

Let’s just invent some numbers here in order to illustrate the problem. Oil is at $100 a barrel when delivered to the refinery. It costs $40 to
produce it in Alberta, $30 to ship it by rail and $5 if the pipeline were built. Yes, they are entirely made up numbers (although not a million miles
from reality) just in order to illustrate the decision making process.

So, at that market price of $100 the oil will be produced with or without the pipeline. There’s a $30 profit in each barrel even after paying for
rail transport. Now we halve the price to $50 at the refinery. All other costs stay the same. Well, if it costs $40 to produce and $30 to ship then
obviously, after a winding down period, none will be produced and none will be shipped (we’ll ignore sunk costs and so on here). This would make
Warren Buffett very sad as Berkshire Hathaway makes a fortune out of transporting that oil. But, fine, Buffett is made very sad. So also are all those
people who own tar sands properties, Shell, the Koch Brothers and so on. Oh dear, what a pity. And of course Bill McKibben is overjoyed as those tar
sands are no longer being mined.

This content community relies on user-generated content from our member contributors. The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides a collaborative venue for free expression.