Windows 8 discussion (8.1 Update coming April 8)

When MS sees it being critised my users and press and also sees Apple being praised, what else do you expect them to do than try to emulate Apple? If people were happy with MS then perhaps they should have been more vocal and actually defended MS against the criticisms.

When MS sees it being critised my users and press and also sees Apple being praised, what else do you expect them to do than try to emulate Apple? If people were happy with MS then perhaps they should have been more vocal and actually defended MS against the criticisms.

who picks a username like wphonefan? i'm sorry, but this really bothers me. do you work for microsoft? is this a joke account?

Could you please stop posting off-topic stuff in here? We have a private messaging system for a reason.

Also, how is that any different than the many, many other accounts that exist on this website, like MacUser3of5?

People identify with the tech they like, is it surprising someone would say they're a windows phone fan?

here's an obvious one: first we had the control panel. then we had to switch the control panel to "classic mode." now the control panel is split up into three parts. the new, third, "user-friendly" control panel only serves to trap you for five minutes before you realize it doesn't do what you want.... there are literally dozens of bafflingly idiotic design decisions like this. individually, none of them would be so bad, but they stack up right fast.

The only specific complaint I see here is that the control panel has changed over the years. It's true: Windows has changed. All the other operating systems have, too.

There's a handwave about "it doesn't do what you want" but again this is so general that we would have to be mind readers to know what specific thing you are actually complaining about.

I begin to wonder: when was the last time you actually used Windows? If you used it regularly, I'd think you would be able to voice more specific complaints.

i'm not going to sit here and do a design review of windows. for that, i charge by the hour. so, instead, i gave you one very good, very specific case: the control panel. then i stated this was a typical windows problem, and that there were dozens of such problems. you dismiss my one specific example by essentially saying, "deal with it" and then demand i provide more specific examples. do you see my problem here?

You do realize that the old control panel still exists in Win8, right? Just hit the windows button, type "Control" and hit enter. There it is. This is true of most any piece of old windows that you might want to use. On a desktop machine, Metro can just be the start menu, and nothing more. You don't have to use anything in it for any length of time unless you want to.

I agree that the hot corners on a multimon machine are kinda meh. And the start menu taking over full screen is a jarring. But, those are relatively small prices to pay for the unification that's going on that I think *will* pay off well in the long run.

Wait... Now you shrug off your prior arguments as merely subjective matters of opinion?

no, no, i merely meant that as a tacit apology for posting that comment about winphonelover's username. i felt posting a reply would only derail the thread further, so i replaced my original post with a quote i felt appropriate for the ars openforum.

Wait... Now you shrug off your prior arguments as merely subjective matters of opinion?

no, no, i merely meant that as a tacit apology for posting that comment about winphonelover's username. i felt posting a reply would only derail the thread further, so i replaced my original post with a quote i felt appropriate for the ars openforum.

customization is always a good thing, except when it creates an initial barrier of entry for the user. i feel win8 shortcircuts hardcore towards "dumb," making the OS overtly simple in an attempt to be everything to everyone. we'll presume that, technically, windows 8 performs just as well as 7, linux, etc. and highlight that it's more about microsoft's longstanding problem of being unique to be unique. everyone else uses /to/this/directory but microsoft is all c:\windows\crap32 just to be ~different~. this causes all sorts of problems parsing strings. why, microsoft, why did you go with a backslash here? just to be proprietary.

i have to use windows for my job. it's relatively convenient for me to use it for consumer video/streaming. but i am strongly looking for an exit, because i'm frustrated with the performance of microsoft's disney-dollar playground. i feel like a lot of people will ditch microsoft as soon as a viable competitor emerges.

customization is always a good thing, except when it creates an initial barrier of entry for the user. i feel win8 shortcircuts hardcore towards "dumb," making the OS overtly simple in an attempt to be everything to everyone. we'll presume that, technically, windows 8 performs just as well as 7, linux, etc. and highlight that it's more about microsoft's longstanding problem of being unique to be unique. everyone else uses /to/this/directory but microsoft is all c:\windows\crap32 just to be ~different~. this causes all sorts of problems parsing strings. why, microsoft, why did you go with a backslash here? just to be proprietary.

i have to use windows for my job. it's relatively convenient for me to use it for consumer video/streaming. but i am strongly looking for an exit, because i'm frustrated with the performance of microsoft's disney-dollar playground. i feel like a lot of people will ditch microsoft as soon as a viable competitor emerges.

customization is always a good thing, except when it creates an initial barrier of entry for the user. i feel win8 shortcircuts hardcore towards "dumb," making the OS overtly simple in an attempt to be everything to everyone. we'll presume that, technically, windows 8 performs just as well as 7, linux, etc. and highlight that it's more about microsoft's longstanding problem of being unique to be unique. everyone else uses /to/this/directory but microsoft is all c:\windows\crap32 just to be ~different~. this causes all sorts of problems parsing strings. why, microsoft, why did you go with a backslash here? just to be proprietary.

i have to use windows for my job. it's relatively convenient for me to use it for consumer video/streaming. but i am strongly looking for an exit, because i'm frustrated with the performance of microsoft's disney-dollar playground. i feel like a lot of people will ditch microsoft as soon as a viable competitor emerges.

It's called a Mac.

i like macs, i really do. they're nice machines. but something gets lost in the apple aesthetic universe. that something is dweeb tinkerers, doing crazy shit to make the machine their own. the conceit of the PC universe is to allow a bit of ugliness in exchange for a whole range of wacky diversity. this is precisely why it pains me to see microsoft attempt to twist itself into a pale copy of apple's aesthetics.

i like macs, i really do. they're nice machines. but something gets lost in the apple aesthetic universe. that something is dweeb tinkerers, doing crazy shit to make the machine their own. the conceit of the PC universe is to allow a bit of ugliness in exchange for a whole range of wacky diversity. this is precisely why it pains me to see microsoft attempt to twist itself into a pale copy of apple's aesthetics.

Well in Windows 8 you still have full access at the file system. I assume it will remain as hackable as any previous Windows if you so choose.

it's more about microsoft's longstanding problem of being unique to be unique. everyone else uses /to/this/directory but microsoft is all c:\windows\crap32 just to be ~different~. this causes all sorts of problems parsing strings. why, microsoft, why did you go with a backslash here? just to be proprietary.

it's more about microsoft's longstanding problem of being unique to be unique. everyone else uses /to/this/directory but microsoft is all c:\windows\crap32 just to be ~different~. this causes all sorts of problems parsing strings. why, microsoft, why did you go with a backslash here? just to be proprietary.

Most Win32 apps are limited to 260 char paths, and 260 char paths can use / or \ more or less interchangeably.

If you use full-length (2^15 character) raw ("\\?\" style) Unicode paths, the operating system routine that normalizes and fixes up paths doesn't get invoked, which means there's no forward slash to backslash conversion. Nor is there various other things like current directory processing: they have to be full, absolute paths.

Current directory handling is I believe the only outstanding issue that has a hard 260 character limit. Virtually every other Win32 API will tell you the buffer size; the current directory API will not, it's a hard 260 character limit.

Hey DrPizza, now that you're here, do you know what \??\ paths are about? They seem to be meant for when you don't want to reparse a path (e.g. handling junctions), but do you know what the difference is from \\?\ paths? I couldn't find anything on MSDN about them.

Hey DrPizza, now that you're here, do you know what \??\ paths are about? They seem to be meant for when you don't want to reparse a path (e.g. handling junctions), but do you know what the difference is from \\?\ paths? I couldn't find anything on MSDN about them.

I vaguely recall having seen something about the meaning of \??\ somewhere, but I don't remember where, and it's apparently impossible to search for, so it's quite possible I'm remembering wrong or mixing it up with the \\?\ syntax.

WinObj lists the contents of the NT Object Manager's namespace. There's a \GLOBAL??\ subtree in the Object Manager namespace (containing symlinks to a bunch of stuff all over the place), but not a \??\ subtree.

Hm, I came across it while writing a Python library to deal with NTFS junctions. What I found was that \\?\ could mostly be substituted for \??\, but I ran into case-sensitivity issues with \\?\ that weren't present with \??\.

I was ready to rage until I tried to remember the last time I actually watched a DVD on my computer. I couldn't remember. And when I did, I never used WMP. Even in my imaginary HTPC setup, I wouldn't be using the integrated player.

Every machine I work on seems to have some form of CyberDVD, so I think this will affect very few people if any.

I was ready to rage until I tried to remember the last time I actually watched a DVD on my computer. I couldn't remember. And when I did, I never used WMP. Even in my imaginary HTPC setup, I wouldn't be using the integrated player.

Every machine I work on seems to have some form of CyberDVD, so I think this will affect very few people if any.

With any luck we'll see them knock a few bucks off the price of Windows 8, and that would affect a lot of people.

I too was pissed at first when I saw this, but after some thought I too had trouble remembering when the last time was I watched a dvd movie on a PC. It's not as if Microsoft is going out to antagonize their user base. They are watching their telemetry and have noticed that dvd movies are dying on the PC. Why should every one pay for a license that only a few use? Perhaps in the future the folks who own the rights to the dvd movie codecs will see the light, drop the price they charge on the licenses, and the capability will come back to Windows.

Microsoft Windows 8: Mostly A Crap Wreck...Last week when out in Bellevue to talk with Gabe Newell about Steam and the Source Engine on Linux, for being a former Microsoft employee his criticism was very surprising. As mentioned in last week's article, "Listening to Gabe Newell talk about Linux for hours made me wonder whether he was a former ex-Microsoft employee (where he actually did work in his pre-Valve days in the 90's) or the director of the Linux Foundation. His level of Linux interest and commitment was incredible while his negativity for Windows 8 and the future of Microsoft was stunning." His criticism of Windows 8 made me very curious to try out this upcoming Microsoft OS, and he also wanted to know what I thought of it, so as soon as I returned to Chicago I downloaded the Windows 8 Consumer Preview. In this article are just some of my brief thoughts as I tried it out for a few days....Now onto the big end-user change for Windows 8: the Metro UI. Up to trying it out myself, I heard mixed views about Metro on Windows 8 but overall most comments seemed to be positive. After trying it out though, for Windows 8 on the desktop I see Metro as an absolute shit wreck. Metro may work very well for phones and tablets and game consoles, but for the desktop I see it as a disaster. Metro really isn't intuitive for the desktop, is complicated and very confusing after the common Windows desktop workflow since Windows 95, and overall makes Canonical's original Unity desktop environment seem better than Metro. I would take Ubuntu's Unity or the GNOME Shell any day over Windows 8 with Metro....

Windows 8 would be a nice upgrade from 7 if Metro and Start Screen were optional in the PC. As it is now its a frankestein of two UIs that dont mix well.SS reminds me of the Program Manager in Windows 3.1.The way I had it configured is very similar to Windows 8 Start Screen, a bunch of programs icons, each kind in its own window (in 8 SS in its own column), but at least the programs ran in windows, not in full screen.Its a retrocess. And once more Windows programs get migrated to Metro apps the worst multi-tasking will become. aAnd yes, I know task-switching is present.

Microsoft is using its market share in the PC world to force everybody into Metroland, in the hope that Windows 8 gadgets (smartphones, tablets, etc) will have an easier adoption.

Its entire philosophy of having "one-OS-to-rule-all-devices" is flawed and a chimera. Having devices with small screens and touch-based having the same Metro OS as multimonitor KB+M operated machines is just crazy.

Its entire philosophy of having "one-OS-to-rule-all-devices" is flawed and a chimera. Having devices with small screens and touch-based having the same Metro OS as multimonitor KB+M operated machines is just crazy.

Happy now?

Well, everybody has an opinion. Me, I've been running Win8 since the Dev Preview, and I like it. Combined with the right convertible hardware (the Lenovo Yoga comes to mind), I see an attractive package. It's probably the first time in a decade or more that I'll be buying a new computer specifically to take advantage of OS features. But if you like something else, well, that's fine too.

And - yeah. Seeing people actually make their agenda clear in their own words, rather than cherry-picking quotes from others, makes me a tiny bit happier.

Me, I've been running Win8 since the Dev Preview, and I like it. Combined with the right convertible hardware (the Lenovo Yoga comes to mind), I see an attractive package.

What if it's not combined with the right convertible hardware? What do you think of it on a traditional desktop or notebook? That seems to be where the most complaints are coming from.

I use it on a multimon machine, and I think its fine. I keep many of my apps pinned to the task bar, and the ones I don't I usually start via winkey-<type>. I currently don't have much use for metro, but there's not a whole lot out for it yet, this may get better. The right hand side hot corners are annoying on a multimon machine, but I honestly don't try to get to them very often (since I just use winkey to switch to metro).

I personally think there's a lot of smoke and flame for no good reason, but to each workflow ones own opinion. It doesn't hurt mine any.

Me, I've been running Win8 since the Dev Preview, and I like it. Combined with the right convertible hardware (the Lenovo Yoga comes to mind), I see an attractive package.

What if it's not combined with the right convertible hardware? What do you think of it on a traditional desktop or notebook? That seems to be where the most complaints are coming from.

I've been happy with it on a T500 laptop with one additional screen attached. Note that the additional screen is above the laptop screen, not to the left or right, so I have had no problems with hot corners.

For traditional desktop apps I have no troubles at all - in fact the only times I realize I am using Win8 rather than Win7 are when I see the task manager, the new Windows Explorer, the Start Screen, or the occasional item from the new Metrostyle control panel (usually wireless connections). As all of these are fairly rare for me, I'd say 97% of my Win8 usage so far feels just like Win7.

I look forward to the new hardware because I feel that for me at least, it will unlock new usage scenarios where Metro makes sense. Convert the laptop into 'tablet mode' and use it for ebook reading or light messaging or checking the weather or whatever when I'm standing, or sitting on a bus or airplane, etc. Places where unfolding to screen-and-keyboard formfactor are uncomfortable or unwieldy, and my smartphone screen is just a tad small for comfort.

The first few days with Win8 were a bit confusing as I explored, and put all of this into context. Once that exploration was done and I understood the new features and how they relate to my workflow, I found Win8 to be as comfortable as Win7 ever was. I anticipate finding *more* comfort once I have the hardware (touchscreen and convertible formfactor) to really use Metro apps the way they are intended for use.

As all of these are fairly rare for me, I'd say 97% of my Win8 usage so far feels just like Win7.

This is what i see in most posts from folks who seem to like Win8: I've pinned stuff to taskbar, rarely use start screen, don't see Metro much, it's fine, i don't know what the kerfuffle is all about.

You summed it up quite clearly adminfoo, you aren't actually using Win8 everyday, you're only using it around 3% of the time.

Win8 to me is Win7 with some visible changes; copy dialog, explorer, no start button etc. and some under the hood changes; faster boot, more effecient etc.But, the real thing that makes Win8 Win8 is Metro. If you're not using Metro on a daily basis, for at least 50% of your screen time, then you're not really using Win8, just Win7 with some cosmetic and performance changes.

As time progresses, MS would like there to be more and more Metro apps, probably without desktop equivalents (or else, why even bother with Metro). So as time passes, a lot of folk will be spending more and more time in the Metro environment, leaving the desktop behind. It's this area that is important to understand if "it's fine", since one would presume that MS would eventually like to minimize desktop mode, after all they do call it classic, and i think i've heard it referred to as 'legacy'.

Combined with the right convertible hardware (the Lenovo Yoga comes to mind), I see an attractive package.

¿¿ I hadnt realised that Microsoft would be offering convertibles as a package with Windows 8. Or that Windows 8 would excel with convertible hardware, which is nice considering how widespreaded that hardware is. ¿¿

adminfoo wrote:

And - yeah. Seeing people actually make their agenda clear in their own words, rather than cherry-picking quotes from others, makes me a tiny bit happier.

Glad to have helped make your weekend happier.

Entegy wrote:

It's the desktop that will be most awkward, but I figure if I treat the Start screen as a landing of information (which I like) rather than an environment with its own apps, I'll be good.

D0rk Angle wrote:

I currently don't have much use for metro, ...

adminfoo wrote:

As all of these are fairly rare for me, I'd say 97% of my Win8 usage so far feels just like Win7.

Entegy, D0rk Angle and Adminfoo, as hinted by my comment...

impar wrote:

... once more Windows programs get migrated to Metro apps the worst multi-tasking will become. And yes, I know task-switching is present.

... and by the more eloquent Stickwickstapers post...

stickwickstapers wrote:

But, the real thing that makes Win8 Win8 is Metro. If you're not using Metro on a daily basis, for at least 50% of your screen time, then you're not really using Win8, just Win7 with some cosmetic and performance changes.

As time progresses, MS would like there to be more and more Metro apps, probably without desktop equivalents (or else, why even bother with Metro). So as time passes, a lot of folk will be spending more and more time in the Metro environment, leaving the desktop behind. It's this area that is important to understand if "it's fine", since one would presume that MS would eventually like to minimize desktop mode, after all they do call it classic, and i think i've heard it referred to as 'legacy'.

... you guys are not preparing yourselves to Windows 8 and the Metro apps, you are just making Windows 8 behave as much as possible as Windows 7. Once there is one must-have Metro app (or two or three, or four...) that you will need to use everyday and often it will be time when you can properly judge Windows 8 (lousy) combination of UIs.

I'm fully prepared for that. The nature of the apps I use every day, except my Twitter client, are not possible under WinRT. At most, I would be using the built-in music app for my Zune Pass. The rest of my apps are still desktop apps and will be so until WinRT expands. by then, I expect a more mature environment.

I'm fully prepared for that. The nature of the apps I use every day, except my Twitter client, are not possible under WinRT. At most, I would be using the built-in music app for my Zune Pass. The rest of my apps are still desktop apps and will be so until WinRT expands. by then, I expect a more mature environment.

... you guys are not preparing yourselves to Windows 8 and the Metro apps, you are just making Windows 8 behave as much as possible as Windows 7.

Not really; for me an OS is just the skeleton on which the software I need and use is grafted. Why would by specific use-case change considering that right now, for me at least, the difference between the Windows 8 start screen and the Win 7 start menu are minimal?

What if I don't have any use for metro apps? I might not use the full capabilities of the OS, but in the end I'm not losing anything because I don't have any need for those particular functions.

To say that you have to use Metro apps in order to prepare for Windows 8 seems a bit disingenuous to me considering that, in my particular use case, those apps are the least interesting function of the new OS.

And yes, I'm not waiting for Windows 9 as I have real use for the native mounting of ISOs and VHDs, I really like the new Task Manager, I love how snappy the OS feels and I'm not giving anything up by moving from Windows 7 to it.