If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

View Poll Results: Coach Frank Vogel

Voters

115. You may not vote on this poll

Yes he is the best coach for this team and can lead us to the ECF's and beyond

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

I don't think Shaw would do much better for us. He's in Vogel's ear all the time already, it seems like it would be a lateral change. The only difference being that he would be expected to change the offense.

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

The fans forced Bird's hand and that made him fire JOB when he didn't want to do that. He wanted to finish that season with JOB and then bring in a hot assistant coach the next year. Instead, Vogel go the job in an interim basis but the team came around and that forced Bird to hire Vogel, something he never wanted to do..... The result was already written. Vogel would go into some losing streak and he would be quickly replaced. In this case, I think Shaw gets the job and I think he might have gotten it if Bird had been able to follow his original plan......

I agree with this to a point but the problem is that JOB should never have been back for that season anyway. I suppose there's always the chance Bird had his eyes on someone that wouldn't be available for one more season for some reason, but JOB was a firing waiting to happen by the start of his final season. His expiration date was WAY past time.

So Bird put himself into the position to lose some control of the coaching situation if JOB's season went downhill enough he HAD to be fired (which would've been a miracle had it went any other way by that point), and then if the interim coach did well enough to gain support of players and fans it would be hard to not retain him. And that is exactly what happened.

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

Bird decided he wasn't going to give Vogel the job until some vet coaches were brought in. I would say that was pretty telling on what Bird really thought of coach Vogel. Can't find it but I remember Bird talking about how he saw similarities between Frank and Lawence Frank on how they came up through the ranks. It wasn't a put down, but it didn't seem to be a ringing endorsement either on how to get a coaching position.

You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.

The plays are putting players in bad passing situations or in situations in which the post can be aggressively defended.

People saying that the team is just missing open shots are crazy. There are "I'm comfortable and in rhythm shots" and there are hurried, unexpected, kinda-open shots. This team has about 3-4 quality looks per game. Everything else is a total cluster**** of confusion and poor spacing.

I like Frank and his personality has been good for the team. But the strategy on offense that they are trying to run absolutely sucks and is not putting the talent in their best positions to win.

The team is literally the worst team in the NBA at this point, and the talent is much better than that. Frank needs to figure something out because I don't see how he can have this go to the 25 game point and not start looking over his shoulder at Shaw. Personally I don't see how Frank is going to make it through this year.

It sucks because I hate to see a great person not have success, but there's no point in sugar coating the situation either. Maybe this is just step 1/team 1 of his coaching learning process.

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.

The plays are putting players in bad passing situations or in situations in which the post can be aggressively defended.

People saying that the team is just missing open shots are crazy. There are "I'm comfortable and in rhythm shots" and there are hurried, unexpected, kinda-open shots. This team has about 3-4 quality looks per game. Everything else is a total cluster**** of confusion and poor spacing.

I like Frank and his personality has been good for the team. But the strategy on offense that they are trying to run absolutely sucks and is not putting the talent in their best positions to win.

The team is literally the worst team in the NBA at this point, and the talent is much better than that. Frank needs to figure something out because I don't see how he can have this go to the 25 game point and not start looking over his shoulder at Shaw. Personally I don't see how Frank is going to make it through this year.

It sucks because I hate to see a great person not have success, but there's no point in sugar coating the situation either. Maybe this is just step 1/team 1 of his coaching learning process.

Couldn't have said it better. I just don't think Frank knows how to implement an effective offensive scheme that makes the most of the player's abilities.

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

The issue isn't the players, it's the types of plays they are running. For example one common situation is the roll off the high post across the FT line and down the right side of the lane. The dribbler gets cut off and tries to throw back across the lane to the high post area and it gets stolen. This is not a bad player choice because it happens too often to too many players.

It doesn't help when you're throwing that pass to unathletic bigs who need the ball in perfect position. If this were an athletic big then this play would have a chance to work, because the big could come down the lane for a huge Jam/finish in traffic. Instead this play is designed to get a big an open 16 footer which can be a good shot BUT this set is also one of the worst in basketball because there is no way anybody can get back on defense in case of a turnover/long rebound. The only man back is the aforementioned slow/unathletic big that the shot was meant for in the first place. MIL ate that play up last night to the point that I never want to see it again lol.

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

It doesn't help when you're throwing that pass to unathletic bigs who need the ball in perfect position. If this were an athletic big then this play would have a chance to work, because the big could come down the lane for a huge Jam/finish in traffic. Instead this play is designed to get a big an open 16 footer which can be a good shot BUT this set is also one of the worst in basketball because there is no way anybody can get back on defense in case of a turnover/long rebound. The only man back is the aforementioned slow/unathletic big that the shot was meant for in the first place. MIL ate that play up last night to the point that I never want to see it again lol.

And it doesn't help when your bigs are getting the ball directly in front of the rim, and they can't score.

I've been saying they need to knock down shots, but I've never said that was THE fix. Hitting shots would go a long way to cure the ills of the offense though. There's going to be problems, the offensive system wasn't the best last year and this years system isn't much different, if any.

But what system you're running is irrelevant when you miss 2ft bunny after 2ft bunny. The best offensive system in the world won't fix that problem.

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

So what DO you think a coach is responsible for? Do you think the offense has shown itself adequate and fails only due to execution? Are our players being used the best they could be within the lineup, and are the offensive sets capable of helping them do their best?

Unless the answer to every one of those questions is a resounding "yes", you HAVE to at least LOOK at the coaching.

BillS

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?

That "same" team was going to move back some in the field because other teams got better with their starting units.... But it shouldn't be this bad. All teams deal with injuries. Last year was lucky and magical. It may never happen again....

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

What's different this season's offense from last season? Other than Danny clearing space on one side of the lane because you can't double of him, nothing that I can see. It's the same poor offense we had last year, the team just seems uncertain and hesitant in finishing the bunnies this season?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have the fifth most efficient offense in the entire NBA last season? If so, did it need to change? Sure, it wasn't pretty to watch. And sure, it could be more complicated thus not as easy to defend. But did anyone consider that maybe this team as constructed can't handle "complicated." We know Frank and the other coaches tried to teach them screening. How many of our players do that well? Oh yea, just West. We know he's talked constantly about moving the ball. How many players do that well? .....(I'll wait) We know he's talked about moving without the ball, how many players do that well? Just Hill. (And we're making him play PG, so he doesn't even get to do that as much.) You can not run a pretty or complicated offense if your players are unable to do those things.

And more importantly, I don't think people realize how big of a deal not having Granger is. Particularly when no one other than Lance and Tyler a bit has stepped up their game to try and help the loss.

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

Sookie for what I can remember I think it was the other way around, the Pacers offense was on the bottom 5 last year, I remember reading articles trying to explain how a team with such a bad offense was winning so much, do you remember the games were the Pacers won even though they had a horrible shooting percentage?

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

Sookie for what I can remember I think it was the other way around, the Pacers offense was on the bottom 5 last year, I remember reading articles trying to explain how a team with such a bad offense was winning so much, do you remember the games were the Pacers won even though they had a horrible shooting percentage?

From what I remember we were one of the only teams in the league, if not the only team in the league, that had a top 10 offense and defense in terms of efficiency.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ace E.Anderson For This Useful Post:

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

I have not read through this entire thread, so maybe this has been mentioned. But what we have to figure out is whether the players have tuned Frank out. I find it hard to believe that they have, but stranger things have happened. I don't see evidence that they have. also once you start losing it can snowball