[USF and UKF] (1v1) Only allow one weapon upgrade for rear ech and sappers.

I've already mentioned this but anyways, a 5 pop cap rear ech should not be allowed double zooks and still get a sweeper on top of that. I originally thought that they shouldn't be allowed to be given anything but I think it's fair to give one upgrade for the builder units. This will make it harder to pershing stall axis mediums with just zook spam and at guns. One may say, why does ost get double schrecks on pgrens? Because the pop cap, mp expenditure are both nearly double of double zook rear ech. And allied armor on average has far better anti-inf meaning you can't chase too far with schreck pgrens, while USF players charge in their zooked up squads with little fear. Its quite common for a single squad with double zooks chasing back axis mediums. Basically 200 mp and 100 munis to say Fuck you to your fuel advantage and go repair your tanks.

The anti-inf accuracy on Axis mediums is pitiful. You cannot afford to kite zook infantry do to slow speed of axis armor. If you want do to any damage to the zook inf, you have to stop up for a sec, and while you get a shot in on the inf (which is likely a complete miss) while zooks rarely miss their target and have a 66% of pen at max range vs ost p4 it's often the case that the dual zook RE out dps the p4. A 5 pop cap squad easily containing 12+ pop cap armor and additional pop cap in repairing pios. Talk about a squad that punches WAYYYYY above its weight. And to make things worse rear ech get a 5th member at vet 3, making it actually a tougher squad than schreck pgrens, sturms. How would you like it if ost pios could upgrade a schreck? Dirt cheap squad able to tell your stuart/aec/t70 to f off thus invalidating light vehicle play. I find the hypocrisy of allied especially USF fanboys to be quite irritating. Everyone complained about the volk schreck dynasty, but when we start talking about zook blobs, USF players just say "well zooks suck, that's why its ok." Well, if you do the math, a schreck costs 90 and a zook 50 and 2 zooks can match or beat the dps of a schreck regarding medium armor. So the pricing has already accounted for that. To be clear, I do not support volk schrecks. Pgren schrecks are cheaper because, you lose basically all AI abilities of the squad, more mp expensive, comes later in the game and the pgren squad has less utility to start off with due to it not being a repair unit yet takes the same pop cap as sturms.

I have a lesser problem with sappers however, I find that late game UKF, when they lose their IS, they replace them with sappers cuz they are cheaper and are quite good combat troops for the insanely low price of 210. Why sappers get a 0.8 received accuracy and a vet 1 (which allow it to absolutely own pios) combat bonus is beyond me. And if anyone says "cuz it's British, it should be better" I will seriously choke someone. That is the most feeble excuse. If sappers should be better, then PAY THE PRICE. Sappers should be 240mp. It's just like how everyone says volks are op cuz they are way better than cons for only 10 mp more. I think I may be fair to allow a second weapon for sappers at vet 3 after an mp increase to 240. This way we get unique vet where RE get extra man and sappers get extra weapon slot.

The number of upgrades allowed on a squad should be reflected in its mp and pop cap cost. Allowing RE and sappers to have the same carrying capacity as rifle and IS is poor game design. How do you make a poll? I just want to make a poll to see how many agree with this proposal.

Comments

If anyone still thinks RE and sappers should have double upgrades, I'll propose double slots on pios and combat engis. How would you like double flamers instantly bursting down garrisoned units (like the flame HT)?

@TheLeveler83 said:
You only see one re squad per game mostly and then the captin, that is 4 zooks not really a blob. Us at gun is build just as much as any at gun.

As for slow axis tanks and kiting.... all have blitz and all can get acces to smoke via doctrine. They all get armour bonus with vet.

2x 50 muni is 100 so it should be able to match or outdo 1 x90 muni shreck. And 2x zooks on rm is a waste of ai power. Res dont have great ai anyway so yeah they go to them.

Sturms can put the sweeper away so res getting 2 weapons next to sweeper is reasonable.

Wow you don't get what I'm saying. You're suggesting that p4s and ostwinds cannot handle zook infantry so they need to escape without being able to do damage in return? So if the USF player decides to single schreck his riflemen, I might as well not build tanks. How ignorant of you. You likely don't understand the word kiting. It means to keep inf at max range and returning fire, not blitzing away or smoking to save yourself.

In 1v1, riflemen are commonly single zook and single bar upgraded. I'm talking 1v1. I know other modes are double bar rifle + jackson spam.

Exactly, you made my point, 2 zooks will easily out perform a schreck so the claim that zooks should be allowed to be spammed on dirt cheap units because they suck is just a poor excuse.

And you respond that sturms can put sweeper away, so RE should get 2 zooks + sweeper. LOL I'm sure you realize that the sturms cannot upgrade with a schreck after getting a sweeper, though according to REs, a cheap 5 pop cap unit, they probably should be allowed to get both upgrades and still put the schreck and/or sweeper away. Bear in mind a sturm is nearly double the pop cap and has way better ai than RE. Sturms are sacrificing a noticeable amount of firepower with a schreck unlike RE which didn't have much to begin with.

@TheLeveler83 said:
Sturms can put sweeper away and retain full ai power. Wich is quite good. Hence the high pop

2 zooks dont easely outdo a shreck but they can yes. zooks mis more do less damag and have less pen. So yes the can but deffenitly not will do better then.

Were did i say they p4 etc cant handle zook squad? I said they can get all sort of stuff to counter or escape (kite) zook squads. Extra armour hp blitz smoke.

I personaly never see a 1 zook 1 bar/lmg rifle squad. I play 1v1 mostly.

You just seem to want all factions to be the same. Going bye your comments.

Did you not read my comment? Smoking or blitzing away is NOT kiting because you are not doing damage with the p4. How do zooks have worse accuracy than schrecks? You just made that up or you "feel" that way.

The schrecks cannot be spammed so, it should retain the full range it has now. Schrecks are far more expensive not just in muni, but in mp and pop cap and allied tanks kite them much more easily due to better anti-inf AND accuracy on the move.

@TheLeveler83 said:
I see zooks miss more and bounce sometimes, i see shrecks hit more and pen more.

P4s and ostwinds are fast enough to kite as they are now. Zooks do less damage and pen less.

Were is your data? I see only frustration about zooks doing their job against medium armour. Shrecks can go against heavy armour far better then zooks.

Shrecks should not be spammed they are to good for that. look at volks shreck blob....

Where is YOUR data about schreck being more accurate. That is your "feeling" that schrecks are more accurate. Have you even tried to kite a few squad with some zooks with a p4 or ostwind. When you stop to shoot, the inf blob is able to catch up to your tank therefore being able to return fire on the tank. While the p4 or ostwind likely misses its shot even when stationary, the zooks will likely hit and can pen 66% of the time from max range on the ost p4 which is quite good for a 50muni upgrade. It penetrates 100% of the time on ostwinds and roughly 90% on stugs.

@TheLeveler83 said:
Kiting isent one stop. It can take several stops to force off the at squad and you will take fire while kiting. It isent my feeling its my observation.

I dont kite full hp at squads with a tank. It will cost me more then him. I try to screen for my tanks.

66% with vet 2 armour bonus on p4? And is the p4 alone against multyple zook squads? If yes its your own fault.

If usf res loose double slots what purpose do they fill late game beside sweeping? And what will they gain after that nerf?

Nobody kites multiple zook squads but a single double zook RE can chase off a p4. Some players get another RE and get double zooks, making 4 zooks. And if they don't do that, a few of their riflemen will get a zook. And how are you going to screen for your tanks? With infantry that gets shredded by even single bar riflemen, rangers, picked off by laser mortars?

What do sweeper pios and combat engis do? Just repair and sweep. So REs are lucky to have a zook with a sweeper since pios and CE cannot get flamers after sweeper.

Yes and I know it takes several stops. This is far more micro intensive than what the USF player does which is just to tell his zook squads to constantly charge. And once you don't back up in time, for just a second, you get hit by a snare. The player with the tank should have the easier micro. Relic is not rewarding fuel advantage with such micro intensive tank play.

all i am saying is that res dont have much else going for them nowadays. no flamers (yes doctrine) no mines repairing is a thing that the crews do also. volly fire hurts them more then the enemy. that only leaves the pit/cover and double weapons.

The player with the tank should have the easier micro. Relic is not rewarding fuel advantage with such micro intensive tank play.

its 3 clicks and you can bait them into mgs or other infantry. the game has a rock paper siccors theme. at source hurts or kills tanks. tanks hurt non at infantry. ai inf hurt at inf.

No, the allies have to spent fuel, manpower and time and have to return to base in order to get their weapon racks, in exchange they can invest more heavily in weapons for a single squad. That's the tradeoff.

@TheLeveler83 said:
all i am saying is that res dont have much else going for them nowadays. no flamers (yes doctrine) no mines repairing is a thing that the crews do also. volly fire hurts them more then the enemy. that only leaves the pit/cover and double weapons.

That's more an issue with USF having bad faction design than RE being near useless. Tank crews shouldn't have high repair speeds, RE were traditionally a mixture of support staff thrown into a desperate last line of defence, the actual engineers would have been included in their formations. Gameplay wise, the tank crews should be able to perform basic repairs while the RE fill the role of a full repair team, as currently they are made redundant.

Volley fire needs a fix of course, but allowing such a cheap unit to become such an effective at platform for so little cost is silly, they should only have a single weapon slot rather than the pair, that way it limits just how easy it is currently to take a support unit and give it enough firepower to ward off tanks.

@MCMartel said:
No, the allies have to spent fuel, manpower and time and have to return to base in order to get their weapon racks, in exchange they can invest more heavily in weapons for a single squad. That's the tradeoff.

In the grand scheme of things its a negligible cost to access them, both in resources and time to equip. It was poorly designed from the onset and Relic never actually created a balanced system for the ability to equip any infantry with significant firepower, turning support units like RE into full at-squads was never going to be a good idea. Just look at how many issues and balance problems have arose from weapon rack upgrades, trying to balance them is a nightmare due to all the different units that can access them, and how that in turn affects their performance in all different combat scenarios.

@1ncendiary_Rounds said:
Nobody kites multiple zook squads but a single double zook RE can chase off a p4. Some players get another RE and get double zooks, making 4 zooks. And if they don't do that, a few of their riflemen will get a zook. And how are you going to screen for your tanks? **With infantry that gets shredded by even single bar riflemen, rangers, picked off by laser mortars? **

If Zook REs are chasing your tanks, literally any infantry squad in the game will screen them. If his riflemen/elite infantry are with them, that's a very tasty target for the MG with the best AOE suppression.

Rear Echelon cost 200mp and 25 mp to reinforce. That's a lot given their complete lack of usefulness in just about every way aside from being given weapons. Pios can't double equip? The humanity.... REs can't even plant mines and are also useless in combat unless you spend almost twice the muni...

Nothing is gained by defaulting every conversation to Axis v. Allies. Sappers are there own quality of engineer, just because they are overperforming doesn't mean that REs are also merely because they can also get 2 weapons and are on the allies. Sappers are actually good in combat without any upgrades, and can become great with them.

What about buffing volley fire (i mean that needs fixed no matter what) but reduce them to 1 slot UNTIL they get their extra model (is that possible?)

I could certainly get behind knicking 5 range off of hand AT (maybe not the new piat) in favour of more accuracy. Would help the axis mediocre AI and it would help the allies poor deflection chance
Both would force a more involved approach to countering armour, and put more lean on AT guns and other less flexible assets.

@MCMartel said:
No, the allies have to spent fuel, manpower and time and have to return to base in order to get their weapon racks, in exchange they can invest more heavily in weapons for a single squad. That's the tradeoff.

The fact that rifle/IS can double equip when grens cannot is already a big advantage. No need to give a 200mp 5 pop cap unit the exact same benefit.

@thedarkarmadillo said:
What about buffing volley fire (i mean that needs fixed no matter what) but reduce them to 1 slot UNTIL they get their extra model (is that possible?)

I could certainly get behind knicking 5 range off of hand AT (maybe not the new piat) in favour of more accuracy. Would help the axis mediocre AI and it would help the allies poor deflection chance
Both would force a more involved approach to countering armour, and put more lean on AT guns and other less flexible assets.

I like the idea of buffing volley fire. Probably make it so that the RE don't take as much damage but slightly increasing the cost so that the volley fire doesn't seem like a half-assed ability.

Axis need no side tech and can get them anywhere on the map these are their advantidges. And double equiping is for ukf and usf. it should only be usf imo

Why do so many of you persist in stating that in-field weapon upgrades are an axis only advantage? Did I miss the SOV weapon racks? Or do cons, guards, penals etc. all upgrade through a different method that I am missing?

Axis need no side tech and can get them anywhere on the map these are their advantidges. And double equiping is for ukf and usf. it should only be usf imo

Why do so many of you persist in stating that in-field weapon upgrades are an axis only advantage? Did I miss the SOV weapon racks? Or do cons, guards, penals etc. all upgrade through a different method that I am missing?

soviet have that yes but its mostly doctrinal and i believe needs to be in friendly territory to upgrade (not 100% sure on that) only the flame thrower and soon penal ptrs are non doc.

until wbp guards could not buy back dropped weapons wich they dropped like crazy, as far as i know double shreck p gren 1 model retreats and the 2nd shreck spawns with reinforce.

axis have volks stgs, lmg34 lmg42 panzershreck and then some in doctrines g43, inf red stgs

When did that happen or what did i miss? A far as i know it was possible for ost and okw alike.

Wow how did you not know this? When was the last time you played as Ostheer? You obviously haven't played Ostheer at all if you don't even know this. I'm going to call you out right now. You are extremely ignorant if you didn't know this and therefore I doubt you have much knowledge of how to play Ostheer. Therefore you shouldn't be commenting on how Ostheer units like the Brummbar are fine. No offense, you shouldn't be on the forums talking about Ostheer if you know next to nothing about it. Go play some games as Ostheer then come back and see if u still believe in what you're saying on these forums.

@1ncendiary_Rounds sometimes people dont notice things, it happens. Small things like upgrading out of territory. Generally i upgrade after a retreat, wouldnt know if i didnt know. No need to be a dick about it.

You never get stuff wrong or miss some stuff? And how is that ignorant?
I play ost to get a feel and see how they counter my stuff and tactics as allies. But i main allies (even during okw op era)

Yes I've made mistakes before like remembering some numbers incorrectly like the RoF of a 6 pounder. But not something that can be easily known by just playing a few games as Ostheer. I'm just frustrated with the number of blatantly uninformed people on these forums and these people do have an impact on the decisions that Relic makes.

@thedarkarmadillo said:@1ncendiary_Rounds sometimes people dont notice things, it happens. Small things like upgrading out of territory. Generally i upgrade after a retreat, wouldnt know if i didnt know. No need to be a dick about it.

I am quite frustrated with the lack of knowledge of some people on these forums so yeah, I did sound quite harsh there, but I overreacted because not knowing the friendly territory fact for Ostheer isn't a "small" thing. Anyone who has played just a few games as Ostheer should notice.