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Everything posted by Number5

Well, maybe it is all in the perception of the phrase "lesser player."
You have taken that to mean someone lesser than the best player in the package, such as a Patterson.
I take it to mean a player lesser than any of the players in the package, which, to me, would mean a lesser player than Cedeno. In my mind, why else would they name Cedeno and say that the fourth is a "lesser player." To me, Patterson, Murton, and Ceda, for example, are not "lesser" than Cedeno. In view of AM's stated goal of quality over quantity in this deal, why would he accept a package where the fourth man is a player "lesser" to Cedeno?
No Ceda, No Colvin. It appears that the Cubs interest in Roberts simply was not what we had been led to believe.

Wow. If Rosenthal's information is correct, the Cubs must not have really had that much interest. The fourth player is a lesser player, and one of the three named players is Cedeno? It seems only natural to think McPhail would decline that offer. It is certainly less than the offers rumored to have been made in the past month. Good decision, Andy, I'm with you on that one. Finally, we can move on.

Somebody gave me neg rep for this? Unsigned, of course. Come on, lighten up, for crying out loud. I also received pos rep for the same post, so it cancels out, but what a post to receive my first neg rep on. I agreed with the post (by a Cub fan) that I was responding to and used the appropriate icons indicating sarcasm and humor. Harry Carry thought that Mike B was floating the rumor that McPhail never told Hendry what Cub players he was interested in. I was responding to let Harry know that Mike B didn't start that rumor, but it had been posted by some Cub fans. I believe I made it very clear that I do not believe that Hendry and/or McPhail are really acting in this manner. Good grief.

This has been claimed by some Cub fans on this board, as ridiculous as it may sound. Lou Cub went so far as to scream it in all caps, as though it was common knowledge that we all should have been aware of. Of course it is absurd to believe that Henry would go along for months without ever being given any idea of who on the Cubs the Orioles were interested in, but this has been the recent claim put forth by a few Cub fans. They clearly have an extremely low opinion of Hendry, since they believe he had been strung along this long while being kept completely in the dark. Mike B didn't dream this up, he was alluding to what some Cub fans have been saying.
Hendry: "Who do ya want?"
McPhail: "Guess."
Hendry: "Come on, really, who do ya want?"
McPhail: "Not gonna tell ya, you have to guess."
Hendry: "Cedeno, Marshall, and Gallagher?"
McPhail: "Bzzzt! Wrong! Hahaha! Guess again!"
Hendry: "I bet its Cedeno, Murton, Gallagher, and Marquis."
McPhail: "Wrong answer! Wrong answer! Guess again!"
Hendry: "Andy, please tell me who ya want."
McPhail: "No, and you can't make me. Na-na na-na Naaaa-na."
Hendry: "OK, Andy, I'll think about it and call you back in a couple of days with my new guess. Hopefully I can guess the right names then."
McPhail: "Betcha can't! Betcha can't!"
Hendry: "Can too."
McPhail: "Can't."
Hendry: "Can too."
McPhail: "Can't."
Hendry: "Coming, Ma! Hey man, I gotta go, dinner's ready."
McPhail: "Whatcha havin'?"
Hendry: "Sloppy Joe's."
McPhail: "Oh man. Hey, Mom, can I go eat at Jim's house?! His Mom says it's OK! Thanks, Mom! Hey, I'll be right over."
Hendry: "Cool."
This is what some Cub fans would have you believe has been going on. FWIW, Harry, I agree with you that Hendry has said nothing like that.

What is your point? Considering player personnel moves is a big part of McPhail's job. What "better things" does he have to do? He is keeping the door open and listening to offers. If the Cubs make an offer that AM feels will be a good one for the Orioles' rebuilding effort, he will accept it. If not, he won't. The Cubs have made offers. Roberts has not been traded. You can argue and/or all you want, or concern yourself with semantics if you wish, but the facts speak for themselves.

I don't think $5M is an issue to the Cubs. I believe that the whole idea for them is to make a push to have a shot at the NL pennant this year. Their concern isn't so much cheaper backups as it is better backups.
Payton is actually a very good ML backup outfielder. He is decent offensively and can backup all three outfield spots very well. Payton thinks of himself as a starter, but I'm thinking that he is now growing to accept that he really is a good 4th ML outfielder at this point in his career.

I doubt anyone would neg rep you for having an opinion, even if it is a misguided one.
Pie, Cedeno, and Gallagher for Roberts and Payton works for me. If the Cubs acquire Crisp or Matthews, Payton would still make sense for them, since he can backup at CF. If AM can get Ceda, Veal, Patterson, or Marshall included in the deal as well, I'd write in his name in the Presidential election!

I'm not sure how you can say it is inaccurate to say that the Orioles don't need to trade Roberts and will only do so if offered a quality package that they believe will be a positive step in their rebuilding. McPhail said after the Bedard trade that any trade now will be for quality over quantity, since we have received the quantity we sought in the Tejada and Bedard trades, and everything he has said and done since has supported this. There is no doubt that the Cubs have made offers for Roberts. If the Orioles needed and wanted to trade Roberts, they most certainly would have. The Orioles are rebuilding and, as such, are willing to move Roberts for the right pieces in that effort. They are most certainly not trading him to the highest bidder no matter what. The quality must be there or no deal. Everything that has happened supports this. Nothing about the facts supports your statement.

As I said, Bloop, it is Cub fans that brought up the Lopez rumors in this thread, saying that if the Cubs traded for Lopez, they would not be trading for Roberts. Seems bizarre to me, as well. If they did do that, there would be no room for Cedeno. Please understand the context of my posts was in response to other Cub fans' posts. Lopez doesn't make sense for the Cubs to me, either, as things stand now.

Sorry, Harry, but rankings involving Cubs on that particular site can hardly be considered.
Lou Piniella is a strong and fiery field manager. He reminds me in some respects of Earl Weaver. I have always liked Lou. He picks his favorites, though, and sometimes wears his emotions on his sleeve. He has made his feelings toward both Cedeno and Marquis known, and this has no-doubt caused Hendry some headaches. Lou has certainly tried to smooth over both of those situations, but the horses had already gotten out of the barn, I'm afraid.
You, I'm sure, know better than I what Piniella's dislike for Cedeno is all about, but the situation is there, pure and simple.

Ballgame, the Lopez rumors have been brought up on MLB Trade Rumors (you know, the site run by the Cub fan) and brought up in this thread by several Cub fans. It certainly makes no sense to me, as I can't believe they would start Lopez over DeRosa, much less Roberts. The Nats seem to be choosing Guzman and Belliard over Lopez.
Clearly, though, if they do trade for Lopez, Cedeno would be out. There is little doubt that Cedeno definitely is not a favorite of Piniella's.

Harry, please advise me of any athlete that does not want to play for a winner. Roberts is not pouting, and will play his best whether he is traded or remains in Baltimore. I think he understandably would like for the situation to be behind him, one way or the other. Brian Roberts is not demanding to be traded.

Has Theriot been offered? I thought it was Cedeno. With the Cubs professed interest in Lopez, it doesn't even look certain that Cedeno will make the team, much less start. Personally, I don't get why Lou is so down on Cedeno, but it is what it is. In any case, your stressing that the offer includes a ML starting shortstop is a stretch, to say the least.
He would probably start for Baltimore, given the total absence of middle infield talent the Orioles would have if they traded Roberts, but the Orioles are not looking to merely slightly improve upon what we have. That is not the way to rebuild.

It amazes me that some Cub fans present the obvious fact that teams rarely trade a player with Roberts' skill set with 2 years remaining on his contract as somehow supporting their contention that the rumored Cubs' offer is as good as it gets.
Sorry, but that dog don't hunt.
Roberts salary is not an issue. He is certainly not a clubhouse problem, and is well liked and respected by the front office and ownership. He is a fan favorite and has been a true asset to the Baltimore community. He has two years remaining on his contract and is only 30 years old. On top of all that, he's a darn good player.
The Orioles don't need to trade Roberts by any means. It isn't even entirely accurate to say they want to trade him. Fact is they have made it clear that they are willing to trade him if, and only if, they can get a package in return that would in all likelihood have a real positive impact on the team's rebuilding effort.
The thought that the Orioles will be unloading Roberts for the best offer is, quite simply, mistaken. Everything that McPhail has said and done has supported his statement after Bedard was traded that the Orioles would be looking for quality over quantity in any trade, since the quantity needs were met pretty well by the Tejada and Bedard trades.

Has he said that?
I can see him considering extending if he likes the way things are shaping up after this season, especially if we are able to sign Tex.
Besides, Keeping Roberts for now has other benefits regardless of whether he extends or not. His value as a leader/role model to our younger players, for one. The Cubs are certainly not making a "gotta pull the trigger" type of offer so far, so I see no real downside to holding off for now. Some of the posts we see from some Cub fans to the contrary, I don't believe offers for Roberts at the deadline, or even next off season will be appreciably less than what the Cubs are offering now. I think the odds are in our favor that someone, perhaps even the Cubs themselves, will offer more later.
After all, what are they really offering? Which of the players rumored to be offered by the Cubs do you see as being better than Roberts and being players we can rebuild the team around?

The problems with Marquis are his $16.25 salary for the next two years and his clubhouse issues/attitude everywhere he has played. It is the attitude issues that concern me. Why bring in that kind of poison to a clubhouse full of young players? The Orioles aren't going to compete this year anyway. I don't care how good he is, I'm just afraid that he would bring more harm than good to the team's rebuilding efforts.

If Marquis is in the deal, which I hope is not the case, cash would certainly not be headed north. The Cubs would have to put a lot of cash into such a deal, not the Orioles.
The idea that Marquis could be easily traded at the deadline just doesn't ring true to me. If he were easily moved, the Cubs would have already traded him. No, if we took him back in the trade I'm afraid that Marquis, his contract, and his attitude would unfortunately be all ours for the next two seasons.

I think last year's post-season failure is, in fact, the driving force behind the Cubs strong interest in Roberts. Piniella and Hendry want a proven offensive catalyst. Roberts may well have made a difference in that series with San Diego. So, yes, I think the Cubs do have the post-season in mind when considering a trade for Roberts.

Roberts' salary is irrelevant to the discussion. The question is 4-for-1, or 5-for-2. The proposed 5-for-2 would include Payton and Marquis. Roberts goes in either case, as you know. The salary issue is Payton vs. Marquis.

Payton is signed for this year only at $5 million. Marquis is signed thru 2009 at $16.250 million. These two contracts are not comparable.
If neither Murton nor Patterson is included in the deal, why would the Cubs even want Payton?
Marquis has been a clubhouse problem in Atlanta, St. Louis, and now in Chicago. Why would we want to bring in an attitude problem? That's the last thing we need around our young pitchers, IMO. I don't agree that Marquis will be an attractive chip at the deadline, any more than he is attractive to many teams now.
It was reported that the Orioles could get Uribe ($4.5 million for 2008 only) from the White Sox straight-up for Payton. I would much prefer Uribe to Marquis. If Marquis is the only option to get back if Payton is included, taking the 4-for-1 deal of Gallagher, Ceda, Veal, and Cedeno for Roberts, and then trading Payton for Uribe, makes a lot more sense to me.
If Patterson, Murton, or Marshall would be the 5th guy back if Payton is included, I would go with the 5-for-2, but not if it has to be Marquis.

If Gallagher, Ceda, Veal, and Cedeno for Roberts is the offer, I agree this deal will get done.
I think you've overstated Gallagher just a bit though. Hard to say he is ready now. He only has 8 games at AAA, and he got hammered in his brief ML call-up last year. So-so numbers so far in ST. I'd be very happy to have him, but all indications are that starting the season at AAA is probably best.

I agree with Bigbird. If both Veal and Ceda are in the package with Gallagher and Cedeno, I think we should go for it.
If we do make this deal, working out a deal with HOU for Loretta and/or CWS for Uribe would give us a decent placeholder(s) in the middle infield shouldn't be too difficult to do, pending trades for 2B/SS prospects that aren't quite ML-ready.

What makes you think Gallagher is ready to step immediately into the rotation?
He was shelled just as badly, slightly worse actually, as Liz in their brief call-ups last year. Gallagher has had 8 games at AAA. Both Liz and Gallagher spent most of the season at AA last year and, again, had comparable numbers. Liz strikes out and walks more hitters than Gallagher. Liz has been better thus far in ST, although Gallagher was effective his last time out. I like both of these guys and would love to have them in the Orioles rotation for years to come, but it sure looks to me that both pitchers would be better served starting 2008 in AAA, IMO.