Ferrothorn (Analysis)

<p>Ferrothorn is probably one of the most respectable defensive pokemon of 5th gen, with it base stats of 75hp/94atk/131def/116sp.def. Yet one must note his 94atk base stat which makes it pretty decent at dishing out some damage as well. At first glance it is his typing that makes him sort of unattractive in VGC since there are so many pokemon with fire and fighting moves, but don't count out this ugly steel seed yet, because he can cause a world of hurt with the right moves and partners. </p>

[Set Comments]
<p>The main focus of this set is to hit hard and fast with Trick Room up. It is most advisable to use protect on the first turn so you can set up TR and commence the attacking.</p>

<p>Let's be honest, Ferrothorn will not see any major KOes aside from an annoying Jellicent. Offensive Ferrothorn's main objective is to weaken the opponent's pokemon to set up the KO. It could be a little difficult to focus on one pokemon at a time considering Ferrothorn's typing.</p>

<p>One may also notice that Ferrothorn carries Explosion. Despite the fact that it has been nerfed in this gen, it is very useful when Ferrothorn is at low HP to perhaps get a major KO or cripple one of the opponents pokemon. Obviously it is best to use Explosion when you have TR up, but either way it can still be helpful. Especially if you have a partner like Jellicent or Chandelure it is 100% to your benefit.</p>

<p> As for items, it is suggested to use Occa Berry over Life orb because of Ferrothorn's major fire weakness. It will give one a shot at surviving a hit and getting a KO when needed. Life Orb could be used if you think the extra damage will help in getting those KOs. You must decide if the 10% loss in health is truly worth it.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>As for teammates, Ferrothorn enjoys having a pokemon that can set up Trick Room llike: Jellicent, Chandelure, Cofagrigus and Reuniclus. The best partner with Ferrothorn would probably be Jellicent as it can take out those fire pokes like Chandelure out of the way with Water Spout while it tries to aim at Ferrothorn while it is using protect. Chandelure would also be a preferred partner as it can also learn Trick Room and it's high special attack is nothing to scoff at. With it's fire typing it can take out Steel and Grass types that try to wall it. Especially another Ferrothorn. </p>

<p>Other decent partners would be pokemon that can work with Trick Room such as Conkeldurr, and Gigalith. Allowing more coverage and taking out pokemon like Chandelure, Darmanitan and Volcarona's that would otherwise easily destroy Ferrothorn. Sometimes Reuniclus can be the best partner for Ferrothorn as it has psychic typing and can KO Conkeldurr with a Psychic not even giving it a chance to do damage to Ferrothorn under Trick room and Reuniclus can also do hefty damage against Chandelure. Beware of Chandelure's Shadow Ball though, it could render Reuniclus useless. </p>

<p>Curse and Hone Claws deserve to be mentioned to those who think raising attack and other stats may be beneficial to getting KOs. Curse will allow Ferrothorn to be slightly more bulky whilst still moving first in TR. Hone Claws can be of use as well in replacement of explosion as it can raise the attack and accuracy of Ferrothorn. A 100% accurate +2 Power Whip is a force to be reckoned with (if you can get two Hone Claws in that is). Even a +1 Hone Claw is enough to cause major damage to Pokemon like Bisharp.</p>

<p>Considering it's EV spread, one may decide to take out from HP or attack and invest in the defensive stats, but you lose power if you take away from attack and durability if you take away from HP. Honestly, what is the point if you are not going to go defensive to invest in those stats on the offensive set?</p>

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set is mainly used to ensure Ferrothorn's survivability and annoy the opponent with leech seed. The main moves that Ferrothorn will use are Leech seed and protect with good ol' Power Whip.</p>

<p>The main focus here is to Leech Seed the most useless pokemon on the other team. This will allow you to dwindle that pokemon's health bit by bit whilst you focus your attacks on the bigger threat and at the same time Ferrothorn is recovering while unleashing Power Whips. This will reduce the chances of being completely taken out and keeps your attacks more focused. Leech Seed will more than likely force a switch if the opponent has a counter or wishes not to leave the said useless pokemon out to dry. This gives one a bit more room to set up or prepare themselves for a counter.</p>

<p>Toxic is mentioned for those that think it would be beneficial to poison an opponents pokemon and watch it take damage as the battle rages on. It could be used if one thinks Leech Seed won't be beneficial to their team.</p>

<p>Another main thing here is Protect. Protect will optimize your healing and survival potential. Also it is useful if you tend to use moves like EQ that can damage your partner and it's especially useful against pokemon that one knows has Hi-jump kick to send them crashing.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>On the defensive set you may take out a few EVs from Special defense and add them to defense if you have a Sassy Nature or you may increase your attack sat to hit harder with Power Whip. </p>

<p>With this set your are better off using leftovers. This is because it can make the difference between a 2hko and a 3hko. If you get hit once you regain 6% of it back, next turn you can protect to get another 6% to make it 12. If you include two turns of Leech Seed then you have a grand total of 36% HP back. This in turn makes Ferrothorn incredibly difficult to get rid of, especially in TR. Occa Berry is only there if you really fear getting KOed by a fire attack before you even get to set up.</p>

<p>Also if you are considering not to use a TR team then Ferrothorn can work well with normal teams thanks to his typing as long as you have something to get rid of those pesky fire and fighting types that counter it. For you guys that love Rain teams then as a partner you need not look far. Ferrothorn is an excellent partner in a rain team which lowers the power of fire moves by half which Ferrothorn greatly appreciates. This overgrown weed of steel has good synergy with Thundurus that has Rain Dance. It is always great to have the added effect of 100% accurate thunders that have the chance of paralysis and 100% accurate Hurricanes(If you like to use Tornadus as well). They complement each others strengths very well and allows for almost perfect coverage against all types. In addition with the rain, the defensive set will be very annoying as there will be almost no way of getting rid of it unless the opponent has a Conkeldurr with Hammer Arm, but even then if Thundurus is out there is no way Conkeldurr will touch Ferrothorn anytime soon. </p>

<p>Quick note about Paralysis, do not use TR when one or both of the opponent's pokemon are paralyzed. I realize that this may be obvious but if Ferrothorn is out and this is the case, it could screw the strategy with Defensive Ferrothorn. Even though Ferrothorn has the bulk to handle most attacks, it is still to it's disadvantage for something as unfortunate as that to happen.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Anything that's a fire type can counter Ferrothorn with out an issue at all. Aside from that, Amoongus does a good job at walling Ferrothron with rage powder and spore. It's grass typing will make Leech Seed and Power Whip pretty much useless. Liligant can also be an issue because of it's ability to use Quiver dance, HP fire and wall Leech Seed completely. One can still use Gyro ball to take it out but it could be somewhat risky.</p>

<p>Fighting types like Conkeldurr, Terrakion, Cobalion, and Scrafty can severly damage or even KO Ferrothorn; hence why Jellicent or Chandelure would be good partners. Reuniclus is also a good check and counter if it has Calm mind and Magic guard making it invulnerable to leech seed and power up it's SP. Atk to hit Ferrothorn with a good HP fight or Focus Blast. If Reuniclus ever shows up, I suggest you focus your attacks on that Nixon blob before it Watergates you. </p>

<p>If you don't know this already it is inadvisable to go against Conkeldurr with Ferrothorn. After a guts boost it will always KO Ferrothorn and do 60% with Mach Punch. That's just a side note. </p>

<p>Also, Bisharp can counter Ferrothorn and most of its partners efficiently thanks to its Dark/Steel typing. If Bisharp is allowed to Swords Dance with or without a substitute, Ferrothorn will probably be gone after a Brick Break or two. Not to mention that his Sucker punches can take out most of his TR teammates. Also his typing can make Ferrothorn useless unless the attack stat is boosted before KOed by Brick Break. </p>

<p>Beware of Zoroark. It's ability to use Fake out, Dark Pulse and Flamethrower a real threat to Ferrothorn and its partners. It is one of the better counters to a TR team with Ferrothorn in it. One's best bet is to gyro ball it hoping to deal enough damage to KO next turn.</p>

Toxic is completely useless in VGC, and Thunder Wave only detracts from Ferrothorn's ability to perform in Trick Room, the only place where it's halfway useful. Leech Seed on a Trick Room attacker, and indeed on pretty much anything, is pointless in VGC; Ferrothorn's much better off just attacking. The only EVs and nature that Ferrothorn should be running is offensive, with maximum Attack.
Ferrothorn can't fulfill a defensive role on VGC because there are no defensive roles in VGC play, unless it's that of a bulky Trick Room setup mon. No teammate can resist or "nullify" Fire and Fighting moves like you claim, because there is no switching out to counter something in doubles play. It honestly seems like you've never played VGC before, let alone used Ferrothorn.

What Ferrothorn needs is a Trick Roomer, and something like Jellicent or Conkeldurr that works in Trick Room and can take out Chandelure, the most commonly used pokemon and Ferrothorn's largest nemesis.

EDIT: This is such a completely wrong and terrible post that I can hardly believe I created it. Please disregard everything in here.

I disagree with cosmicexplorer. Though there isn't a 'pure defensive' Pokemon VGC, it can be useful to have something beefy. While Ferrothorn may have some glaring weaknesses, it's typing does allow it to have some very effective switch-ins. It's one of the few Pokemon that can boast the ability to switch it on both of Jellicent and Hydreigon's STABs. While a pure defensive set may not be too viable, I don't think a pure offensive set is either. Ferrothorn's terribly small movepool yields a few viable options. Toxic and Leech Seed are still worth mentioning, IMO. You don't need to have it sit there for a few turns to have it be effective. In such a fast paced game, even a little bit of residual damage can help. Leech Seed is also a pretty nice option for Ferrothorn because of it's huge weaknesses. It will probably be switching alot and having the Leech Seed on the field for your teammates could help them, even if it's just a little.

My previous post came off as really critical and arrogant, and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to disparage the analysis like that. However, its somewhat low Attack stat and weakness to Fighting means that it really needs to be more offensively oriented than the analysis suggests. Huy does have a point, though, and I did understate the usefulness of Leech Seed and some defensive ability. I'm sorry for that.

Mention that in rain pretty much nothing can OHKO it, aside from Guts Conkeldurr Hammer Arm, and even about that I'm not sure. I think a set of Power Whip/Gyro Ball/Leech Seed/Protect works really well with rain support.

No, it is understandable why you were critical about my first analysis with defensive Ferrothorn, but I appreciate the apology. I am actually glad that you were as I didn't even consider an offensive set for it which could also be very useful. In other words I learned something new out of it.

I will re-write my defensive set and see if I can work a more balanced set as well. I will also mention how Ferrothorn is basically untouchable in the rain; I had it before but I erased it while I was reworking my set.

I also disagree with cosmicexplorer's first post. If toxic and bulky mons don't work in VGC, I never even qualified for nats and Ninahaza doesn't exist.

I do dislike the first set immensely however, and will not qc approve this as long as its on the analysis, it's entirely not viable. There is no way you are guaranteed to get two boosts in, and even if you did, it would use all of your bulk and you would be kod before you ever attack again.

I think there should be two sets, your current second one, and an all out TR attacker.

A few things, ignoring the second set cause I want it gone altogether.

Don't mention Pokemon that aren't even in the metagame, or are really only used in singles, in the opening paragraph.

There is suppossed to be an [Additional Comments] section for each set, and it shouldn't talk about like Swords Dance in the AC for the second set.

Finally, be more specific, this is small metagame, with very few Pokemon in it. So don't just say Grass-types, there are only a few used Grass-types, and in fact, Gyro Ball hits all of them fine except Amoongus. So he is really the only one worth mention when you mention that grass types counter Ferro. That is one specific example, but it applies quite a few places in your analysis. And to anyone else reading this, this goes for the whole forum, more specificity is good when the meta is this small.

There are quite a few other things, but I'm going to give you the chance to clean that up before I go into any more detail.

I do want say this: An all out Offensive TR set isn't very different from the offensive set that I have put up now. Instead of using hone claws or SD I would just make the third slot available for explosion. Then I would probably have to add a slash to power whip and put Seed Bomb as the second option because of the unreliability of Power Whip. It is because of this unreliability that I placed hone claws in the set in the first place.

With such a small move pool it is very difficult to make it a proper all-out Offensive Pokemon with coverage. So in refute of the offensive set with Hone claws is the fact that it should mainly be used in TR and perhaps I should make that clearer in my analysis. One hone claw will make Power whip more powerful and more accurate. In addition once the main threat to Ferrothorn is gone, thanks to its typing, it won't lose as much bulk as one would think while it boosted its stats.

I base this information off of the testing and battling scenarios that I placed it in, but I will reevaluate the set and put it through some more tests and work on a more pure attacker TR set.

Ferrothorn only requires 252 HP and 84 Defense EVs to always survive an unboosted Close Combat. It also only requires 156 Attack EVs to OHKO Terrakion with Power Whip, so a good spread could be 252 HP / 172 Atk / 84 Def Brave, or you could just slap on a Chople Berry and go 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD Brave, which is the best option in my opinion, although the ubiquity of Chandelure does make the lack of Occa annoying.

EDIT: I didn't factor in CC's Defense drop, so the above is false. Give me a second to revise this.

EDIT2: OK, Ferrothorn doesn't need any Attack EVs to OHKO a Terrakion with Power Whip after Terrakion's used Close Combat, BUT since some (not many, but enough to make it something to watch out for) use Sacred Sword, which doesn't lower defenses, the >=156 Atk EVs should be mentioned if you want a spread that can take a CC and OHKO with Power Whip.

EDIT3: Gyro Ball OHKOs even without the Defense drop, sorry about that. Have you tried a Choice band set, by the way?

This was never quality controlled, why did you move it into copyediting? It's not ready for qc stamp yet and I will tell you what to fix later. But the reason no one has already told you what to fix is because you put it in Copyediting.