Micheál grew up at
Loyd. He worked in the Regal Brewery, then for
Fitzsimons Bakery and finally for Spicers
Bakery in Navan. He is married to Jean OReilly from
Crossakiel and lives at Febog outside Kells.

Interview
with Micheál Campbell

Hello
this is Danny Cusack on Thursday 2nd February 2010,
Im here at Febog, just outside Kells and Im talking
to Micheál Campbell about his time in the Regal Brewery
so Micheál over to you ..perhaps tell us how
you came to be working in the Brewery and all the rest of it.

MC:Well I was
just after leaving school ..well I left school when I was
just 14 and then the brothers came out and asked my Mam would she
send me back to it I went back for a week I think and I had
enough of the brothers at that time .I thought it might have
changed ..Things were still going on ..so I left it
a Miss Flanagan she was an accountant for the brewery
it was in motion at the time and she was friendly with my
Mum and she said .they are looking for ..you will laugh
at this .they are looking for an assistant bottle
washer I was 15 anyway I didnt know what to expect
I knew there was a man down the road from me where I lived
at the time and he was working in it ..so I went down on the
night before the Sunday evening and he said yeah you will be
working with me .be here in the morning at 7:40 and you
will be in with me ..Joe Black was his name lovely man
Lord have Mercy on him .so I didnt know what to expect
when I went in that morning .he put me on the bar of his
bike and we went into the brewery.All the staff were there
getting ready .Colm Mulvany, Gerry Dolan .there was 10
maybe 15 of them and I thought you know the way a young fellow
coming in they would be doing this and .they were the
nicest chaps of staff that I have ever met in my
lifetime ..they were absolutely lovely and I was very happy
in it so my job in the brewery was .were you ever
through the brewery.

DC:No No .I did Oliver Ushers auction rooms .I was
never in the old.

MC:Well
theres where they were .you know like there was
two foremen we never saw the Fitzsimons people that owned it
like ..to be honest with you they were eccentric they never
mixed with people in Kells they werent popular do you know
what I mean but they were very fair .I have never seen
anything like them in all my life .they were very fair they
wouldnt be bullying you or anything like that ..do you
know that was it .it was my first job and I was trilled at
it ..when I be finished on a Friday the foreman would be
going around with your wages and I got one pound 3 and 11
pence ..I never forgot it and the other fellows were getting
maybe 2.50 or something .so I was trilled and that went on
but it was a summer trade we did nothing in the winter
only cleaning everything was spotless ..you would have to be
cleaning and cleaning and cleaning and then come the summer and
you would be doing two shifts .and they came to me I
remember Raymond Fitzsimons he is dead too Lord have mercy on
him ..and he came to me and he said to me that was the
only time he was ever talking to me .he said young man you
dont mind working a bit extra and you will get paid .I
said no sir .I didnt know what he meant so the
boys were telling me Colm and Gerry Dolan we will be doing double
shifts twice what we will be doing and I remember getting nearly
five pound 4.19 and something and bringing that home and
giving it to your mother in hard times ..she was trilled do
you know that was itthe place itself its the
greatest shame that it ever fell through .you know I was
young at the time I didnt know what was going on but
apparently they didnt let anybody wisk, It was
completely run by their own firm .by their own lads there
was three sons and they were all specialised in their own
one fellow was a scientist .they were all trying to
improve on their beer and at that time I remember it too .it
was dearer than the porter that was going at the time
like there was the brewer then was it Paddy Donagh and
he was the man that was responsible for getting the stuff ready
putting the corn into it and all the necessities .and then
there was a walking floor foreman .Hughie Murray was his
name from Drumbaragh and he was the man when we done all
the stuff you see ..he stored it in a place and then it was
brought .the pubs in town bought it off them all right
.and the surrounding villages and all that but there
main outlet that time was the had a depot in Dublin and their was
a man by the name of Goggins I think he was related to Colm
Mulvany or Colm Mulvanys sister was married to
.or something Colm would tell you if you go
back .its a pity you didnt bring him out with
you.

DC:Yeah
the two together

MC:You know
he would say yes or no because a very nice man
Colm .but they brought it you would see the
truck .Ill never forget it .it was something
like you would see out of dark ages a big left hand drive
thing ..and it would bring maybe three or four hundred
cases ..they had their own thing .they made their own
crates for two dozen beer like you know .. and they had a
full time Carpenter there .who was Colm Mulvanys
brother and his father before him was making them ..they wee
all carpenters .there was Dolans .there was a father
and son Gerry Dolan ..when you went in where the Auction
room is now ..there was small places you seeeach one
would hold so many dozen of beer ..there was a man there
Eddie Dolan and his father and it was pasteurised in that
..and it had to be at a certain temperature .he
would have big rubber gloves and he would have a thermometer
going around to make sure that .and then the next place is
where I was working . It was a big tank of what do you call
that stuff . Caustic Soda and it was forever like it
was from here .to the chair there .it was on an axel
you pulled the switch and pulled it down and it would hold
maybe eight dozen of bottles, but you had to have it full if
there was two or three bottles missing it wouldnt be tight
proof .they would roll around the thing and break and you
would be in trouble then you moved that one and put on the
next time and by the time you got round .when the four of
them were full you were back to the first one ..and all the
old labels would have been taken off with the caustic soda and
you took them out and put them on a big ..and they went
around to the next man and they went around the whole place and
thats the way they were bottled eventually they got a
railway line in to take the bottles there was so many
fellows there was myself and Joe Black .he put the
bottles up and they went through .not a machine it was a
bulb to see if there was a crack in it .it was no good
you see or maybe there could have been a cork in it
that went on to the next fellow and if
there was a crack in it going to him it would explode and
then Colm Mulvany was the bottler .he would have a dozen
bottles going around and he would hand them to the next
fellow .which would be Gerry Dolan and he would be capping
them ..the machine just going up and down capping them
..and the next fellow would be taking them off Eddie
Dolans father and he would be brought over heaps of them
and there would be a man sitting one at a time labelling them
.that was it and then they were put in .maybe put in
four or five dozen square boxes and they were put out in the
store that was it ..I was too young at the time but the
boys used to narking over it oh I did it last
week ..where the hops where the beer was made .it was
a big copper vat ..it would hold 3 or 4 men and all the
grains was left in out of the loft they would do it by
computer and it would fall in and added water ..but
when it was all over and done with .they would have to go
in manually and take off all their clothes and put it out with a
shovel ..the farmers around that time knew when they would
be taking out the and would come with barrels and little pickup
lorries and maybe horses and carts and it would come down the
shoot and it would fill the barrel I dont know
what they were giving for it ..I would be telling a lie if I
said they were giving a pound I dont know but they
brought it all with them and everything was scrubbed out
again .it happened twice some days and the fellow would have
to go he would be red with the heat of it and down for a
cold shower and that was it .they did it and that was it
but it was a lovely place to work ..and they had
Fitzsimons .you could never speak ill of them ..they
were gentlemen and we were workmen .Colm and Gerry Dolan
were at school with them when they were younger and they always
called them Godfrey, Raymond and Colm and they called them by
their names but they were always a Mr to me .there was a
couple of fellows a couple of years older than me we
always called them Mr and that .I think I ever only saw the
Boss we called him .I think it was old Jim Fitzsimons I
dont know ..once I only saw him .he was a small
little man .what happened them was that there was a
government in at the time .this is what I was told the story
after and they didnt give shares to somebody or something
and the whole place was flooded with German Larger and that
and Peter Fitzsimons were left stranded and things started to go
against them.They had two shops in the town at the
time ..one in Cross Street and the other one .do you
know where the top of John Street I think its a
cleaning place at the moment and there was two Flanagans
that worked there at that time there was a lot of people on
Fair days and Market days .the shop they had in Cross
Street was a Bonanza altogether and when things started going for
them the sold that and then they sold the other shop and
they owned do you know where the church is below now.

DC: I do.

MC:They owned
all that land right up to the cemetery .up there they had a
farm and that was my job you would have to bring down maybe
two three cases and maybe two dozen in each case maybe I
cant say for definite I had to bring it down and you had to
ring a bell and they would put a big dog in an Alsatian
.and then you would bring it up to the house and leave it
there and bring back the empties .it was for their own use
like .that was it ..they owned a bakery at the
time they owned a bakery I forgot about
that wasnt it amazing when that went
wallop .everyone was sorry for them .I remember getting
the thing in my package ..your service .we are sorry
to say your services ..everyone got them ..your
services will no longer be required but they got in a
manager he was an English fellow, a small little man he was
supposed to do the devil and all all he got was big wages
and done nothing .Clydesdale was his name.

DC:Clydesdale .Colm
mentioned him already.

MC:He
didnt tell you about when I was a young fellow what they
done on me one day .

DC:No.

MC:They told
me .they bet me that they wanted me to go up to him ..I
used to have to light the fire for him in the winter time and I
got friendly with him ..he was alright I didnt know
anything about him .but the boys asked me would I go
up .and it was a real slippery day there was a big hill
outside the bakery .would he let us out to slide ..we
were doing nothing anyway, but Clydesdale was the
man .Hughie Murray was the foreman and Paddy Donagh was the
brewer, and that was that we would never see any of them before
that we used to go and get buns out of the bakery the
fact that it was adjacent to us there was a back way in .we
didnt ask for them and we didnt pay for them so you
will have to draw your own conclusion how we got them ah we
didnt take many of them.When the brewery went then
.I had a first cousin who was working in the bakery
.he got a job in the bakery and I went to work for a farmer
for a year or two George Armstrong was his name.

DC:Oh
yes.

MC:He was a
gentleman, my god such a gentleman when I was ill
here...imagine a man like him with six or seven hundred
acres ..and he came over to visit me .and the two
sisters Miss Hazel and Miss Daphne they came out to see me
too .cause I got on like a house on fire with them, he was a
gentleman there was no doubt but this man got a job in the
bakery Paddy Brady was his name there was a fellow at that
time the sweep was worth 50,000 do you remember
you wouldnt remember that.

DC:I
wouldnt remember that.

MC:That was
the IrishHospital sweep stakes.

DC:I
heard about them.

MC:This
fellow won it anyway so your man was below in Virginia
Brady .Lord have Mercy on him he died afterwards
.he was stretching into the van to get out bread to bring
it in to Mr Governs thing .and the fellow behind him was
after buying a car when he won the 50,000 you see and it was
in gear and it kept hopping and jumped into your man and broke
his two legs above the knee ..so his job was going and again
I had to go for an interview .and they didnt know and
they looked at me and said didnt you work in the
brewery with us .I said yes Sir I did ah well then he said
you start in the morning come in the morning, that was it
.no how are you or have you a CD or whatever you call them.

DC:CV.

MC:That was
it I was there in that place you wont believe it for
50 years.

DC:50
years be god thats a long time.

MC:Spicers
took it over then .they had hard times, Fitzsimons
.nobody gave them any credit .there was a chap
working he was a baker a great baker Alfie
Farrelly was his name and when there mother died .it
will just show you what Im telling you at the start they
never mixed with people or anything .there was about a dozen
people and they gave great employment with horse men ..the
bakery when there was men with horses and carts and thats
why they had the farm and they had there own room below for the
horses at night when they would be coming in they would be fed
the best of everything and that was it and this fellow was only
an apprentice in the bakery .the woman died
anyway, Lord have Mercy on her we went to the funeral
and when we were below at it ..there was about a dozen of
people and everyone walked away and your man looked at me and
said dont go ..it was spilling out of the heavens
.I had good clothes on me and everything .there was
two shovels there and we were the two that covered the grave
.there was nobody to do anything .the wettest
day ever nobody ever said it to us ..well we
didnt want recognitionanyway .well thats
true I couldnt believe it and then Raymond was killed
coming home.

DC:I
heard that yes.

MC:Poor Colm
went berserk altogether .people ask me who owns that bakery
and as far as I know they only had it leased the Spicers.

DC:Youre
probably right I can check that but I think your right.

MC:They had
property there worth a fortune in the good times and actually
below at the very end do you know where the market is
.you would see a big yard and if you went down to the
bottom thats where the vats were I think there was six vats
they were made of pitch ..everything had to be cleaned
.everything that was in it had to be spotless Colm
Mulvany would probably tell you that them lads they had to be
there cause you were handling stuff oh they did a marvellous
business in the summer time but one thing about them come
the winter they wouldnt say go home paid us our basic
rate and kept us on all over the winter .isnt that
amazing now other people would say this that and the other
.and when it started to go down then, poor Raymond he went
up getting the big gas things and sure he was killed .he
pulled it up suddenly and sure it went his wife was there
for a long time after it .a lovely woman, Mrs Fitzsimons
and she came from owning half the town down to making lampshades
do you know where you go in the Auction thing

DC:Yes.

MC:Well the
first little door there thats where she finished up
living after coming from and she made lampshades
there .there was a bookies shop there at the front of it
.I think Jack Fitzsimons he is an architect.

DC:Thats
right he has his office there.

MC:Thats
where she made the lampshades she started on her own
and she finished up employing five or six people .a lovely
woman I think she had a son and a daughter ..but like
everything else I said at the startthe Fitzsimons
were eccentrics but they never done any harm on
people ..they were just together people ..they were
distant .thats what you would call them but they were
very fair .I have to say that.

(Interruption) Time for Tae.

DC:Well
given that its nearly 60 years ago since you worked there you
have a very clear and vivid memory of everything that was
involved including all the process of the brewery so I get the
impression that it was a good experience and a good employers and
you liked your workmates is that a fair match.

MC:Oh
thats exactly it .they would tell you the same the
same lads and the same fellows we would have a bit of
a difference of opinions because I was Drumbaragh and I was
playing football and I was only 16 and they were Kells and there
was two parish teams and the crack would be mighty but I have to
say the staff made it ..they were so nice and genuine
they were gentlemen they all got jobs after that a
new factory started in Kells there a shoe factory and they
allwent to work in it Paddy Brady got a lot ofmoney the fellow .he went to England was there for
maybe two years and fell off a stool and was stone dead .he
was only thirty something.

DC:So
apart from 1946 I think what happened was Sean Lamass was
minister for Industry and commerce and they applied to him for an
export licence and he came down to Mr Fitzsimons and said
Ill give it to you if we get shares in it as well
meaning not him personally the government and he
knocked them back .and it was kind of down hill after that.

MC:thats
right, the place was then flooded with German Larger

DC:Dutch
beer as well ..

MC:They gave
quite a lot of employment .Id say they had thirty
men ..they had a lot of bread men, bakers they had
checker outs they had foremen you know they had
confectionery and they had ladies in the shops and
everything it was an industry there is no question at
all about it.

DC:I
didnt realise until now Micheál that you worked in the
bakery as well and I havent spoken to anyone about the
bakery ..so given you were there such a long time do
you want to say a little bit more about your experience in the
bakery now that I have you!

MC:I was
happy .if I went in that day ..you know the way a young
fellow would go into a place and he would hate every minute of it
cause he would be getting hassle from all sides .but that
never happened to me and even in the bakery when your man got the
job and there was an old man in there Charlie Geraghty was
his name .and Charlie was the top man in Fitzsimons
even though he was an old man when I was there .any
painting that had to be done on the house .it was beautiful
.he would bring me with him on a Saturday you would
get a half a crown or something .down to give him a hand
and he would show me how to fold paper .they spared no
money when they had it it was beautiful you know a big big
house Charlie finished up being the labelling man on sitting
at a big chair and that was it and when it went he got a job
in the bakery .they wouldnt let him go he got a job in
the bakery .Colm and all the rest went away .but your
man I was telling you about that got his legs broke when he went
from the brewery he got a job in the bakery but he only got a
job he wasnt a bread man like me he got a job
driving an old man when the changed from the horses to the
vans and the old man couldnt drive but they
didnt sack him they got this Brady fellow to go with
him and that would be it .Frank Farrelly, he was there for a
hundred years I think ..but it was a lovely place to work
.if you dont mind me saying this it was the
last resort they had to get money out of to keep afloat it
was as simple as that and they had vans then sure we
were young lads we didnt know how to use them they were old
when we got them and something would go wrong, you were all the
time on the road ..half the time you couldnt get going
and all this and then the last thing was the bakers went in on a
Monday morning .not a stitch of bread had they in the place .the flour didnt come they wouldnt give
them any more credit here was a man that lived down
the road from me here Mattie Gaynor .he was there a
long time too .well he worked as a bread man as a horse
and cart man, with another bakery that was in Kells, Kiernans.

DC:I
have heard about Kiernans.

MC:Well he
worked in Kiernans and it closed .it was over there beside
do you know where Vincent Cahill you dont know
where Vincent Cahill had the shop .do you know where, what
will I call it .the Sheeney bar

DC:Yes.

MC:Well when
you go by that the bakery was in it ..Matt worked there and
then got a job in Fitzsimons when they started to get the vans
and he would have to go at four o clock in the mornings .we
would have the cash .whatever be sold that day we would
bring it in and give it to him that night .and he might get
ten bags of stuff he would have a good van .and he
would come back and the bakers would be there with the result of
that is not the way it was done ..another industry in
itself .they would have to have so much flour .10
tonne above on the loft .they had a crane for lifting it up
and everything ..it was well organised and it had to be
proofed ..do you know they just couldnt take it in
off the lorry and start baking with it .with the result it
was going from hand to mouth the stuff wasnt the same thing
at all .so it started going and the next thing was Spicer,
came down and we were told that he took it over and that was
it ..I got on well with him he was a gentleman ..but it
was sorry to see them all going you know Raymond went Lord
have mercy on him and Godfrey got married to a girl from
Virginia, I think he is the only one that is alive .they
were very educated lads .I always say or claimed that they
were very fair you know like I saw them coming to try and
talk to us when we would be .will you have the money in
this evening you know this is the way they would be talking
to us .a bundle of nerves and you would be so sorry for
them .I was really very sorry for them you know cause they
came from .its great when you come from nothing and get up
there but when your up there and come down .I was
sorry for them there was no doubt about it.

DC:A
long way to fall so where was most of the bread sold, that
was produced.

MC:Well most
of the bread we did it in the country shops, at the end of it the
Kells shops let them down at the time when I started up
there was myself and Lawlors in Navan then Bolands
came on the scene that was it I was doing an area, I was
doing Athboy and I was doing Clonmellon and Virginia and all that
country .the three of them that was it.

DC:So
you delivered to all those places so you travelled.

MC:It was a
long day like

DC:It
certainly was.

MC:And some
of the other fellows were going to Kingscourt .it was very
good and still is .that old man used to do it you see he
was there for so long .he would be bringing loads and loads
of bread and said I to him one day come Christmas do you know
.Do you sell Mr Farrelly do you sell many bracks .do
you know it was a big thing .a couple of tonne and he did
you know he was telling me the truth you know .and
then there was fellows that went up to Navan they would
have a few places, Bohermeen and all the surrounding areas,
Crossakiel, Ballinlough, Oldcastle .they did a great trade
down in Oldcastle .I think it was Caddens was the name of
the place .they had vans also they bought the bread
off us and were bringing it all around the country
.probably getting a cut of it .I dont know
.and then when things everything got modernised, they
had different bakeries and everything the came you had
Kellys of Killcock and all these other fellows .Pat
the baker, it fell dead that was it .Spicer, even we would
be up against Spicers too at the time .

DC:This
is Spicers in Navan is it? Its still there I think.

MC:When
Fitzsimons was there we would be against them .its not
like .it was all friendly and that was it ..everyone
had there outlets for it and that was it but the money was
no good in the bakery it was very poor you know you couldnt
live on it .you were trying to live on nothing and only for
I was young and then somebody said to me  do you have milk
no milk man comes here so I started getting milk and I was making
maybe 2 pence on a bottle of milk out of a hundred it was 200
pence it was 16s and 8p at the time, was 8 and four pence.

DC:Of
course it was.

MC:It was
good at the end of the week you could have a fiver
and that subsidised you for what you were getting and
nobody passed any remarks like when Spicer was taking over I
said I do this and he said nobody will say one word to you
.Lord have Mercy on him he said you go ahead and do what
your doing he said ill be happy and thats it .but I
had a good name for minding vans you know .I wouldnt
be wrecking them like everybody else ..then we had a lovely
man down Mickey McGrane was his name he was a gentleman he
was the foreman of the bakery he was a lovely man .mad into
the soccer he asked me would I go I said no I was a GAA and
he would be mad I wouldnt go he would have tickets
you know for big games .his son is now the general manger
in Spicers.

DC:Is
he in Navan?

MC:I in
Navan ..Kells is closed and Balbriggan is closed, Balbriggan
Navan and Trim .when I was with the Meath team in 1970 and
I didnt know what I was getting myself into I remember
Spicer coming down to me .I was the manager of the team in
1970 and we got to the All Ireland Final and of course I hate
saying this now .everybody wanted to shake your hand
.Spicer saw the outlet there and made me a manager
.and here I was with my friends and pals and everything and
going with them and making sure but when I saw what was
going on the pilferage and everything and how any firm
would stick it .so I stuck it for a year and I went back to
him ..I was on the staff you see .at the time I had me own
car and everything and when I saw what was going on I just said
.no Ill just do it for a year and I went back on the
road and when I went back on the road this fellow came
before and he said your going off the road I said I am he said
will you get me the job .I said I will .I got him the
job and said I might now be back and he said indeed you
wont bla bla , .. now whats the first thing he
done .he got a hundred pound at the time for the milk run I
was after building up sold it there and then and he
came up one evening to me and said I want to bring the two of you
out to dinner do you know and I said why would you do that
.if you had two for dinner that time it would be a pound
for dinner for two it was very cheap you know and when
he told me I nearly had a fit .so when I came back of
course the fellow that bought it I started on my milk
run again and the fellow said you cant do that and said I
..I can did you give me anything for this he said
no ..so I said you may go back and get your money of the
other fellow .so I dont know how it finished up but
that was it...end of story.

DC:Thats
how it finished up anyway .

MC:Yes.

DC:You
said the pay wasnt great in the bakery ..were you in
a trade union or was their any industrial trouble or strikes
during your time there .

MC:You heard
this, did you?

DC:No,
No no

MC:When
Spicers took it over you see the manager was the man
.you didnt have to go to Mr Spicer for anything
.if you didnt get by the manager that was it
.he was the boss he was representing John Spicer that
was it end of story .but I remember this man down the
road .this was true now we were getting one pound five
shillings at the time Im not too sure it was pittance you
know .for a responsible job say I sold you two pounds
of bread and you didnt pay me .I had to pay that
that night when you go in like .you know what I mean
.the thing was that the government came and .just
like now and said no one pound five shillings so they gave us two
pound 10 shillings of a rise .that was a general thing all
over .thats how far back is that .and I
remember a man Des Ward from Spicers he was the top man and
I finished up friendly with him after .he said they came
down and we had a meeting below in the bakery I said
nothing .he said we are thinking of giving yis a
doubling your wages and giving you one pound five shillings
.sure I was ten foot tall .I was delighted but the
man down there an experienced man .lord have mercy on him
and he said everything was nearly signed sealed and delivered
.when he called me one side and he says no they cant do
this cause its a government thing and they have to give us
two pound 10 shillings they cant give us two pound and 5 or
6 pence ..they have to give us two pound ten shillings and
we will have three pound 15 a week .so he said Im
going to them and I want you .I was only a young
fellow I was about 20 .no I was about 17 or 18
.so he explained the whole thing to Ward and he knew it
.so he said that was it .so he said if that is the
way we will take it but you will have to sell more and all this
bull shit .so we got it only for the man down the
road we wouldnt have got anything and then we had fellows
working the bakery ..they wanted us to join the union
we had no union and I said Im not joining any
union I think you had to pay a shilling a week .it was at
the time .this is true anyway they got .the
mans name that was over the union .they had a meeting and
we all had to go to it .it was John Swift was his
name I never forgot it like and he came down and he was
an old man at the time .and he said the way it tis
.he mentioned the two Grimes Tommy and Seamus Grimes
.they were bakers at the time .Id say this to their
faces still though they were bakers and they were Labour
people. Finn Gael and everything and they were going to not work
for us, and they were in the union, And paying the union and bla
bla ..I said well Im not joining it we will get
sacked anyway so didnt Mr Spicer come down another
night with John Swift and another man by the name of Young
he was taking over from John Swift, he was retiring
.they were all brought down to the bakery and before I went
in .you see the way .the money was stopped out of
your wages we didnt know this it was stopped
and the firm sent it on .so just as I was going in to the
meeting ..Spicer tipped me on the shoulder and he called me back
and he said just that you would know Tommy and Seamus Grimes and
somebody else .they havent paid union money for the
past two years he said, and now he stood out there and
said, Micheál I want you to join the union I said
well if thats it, and I went in anyway and said nothing for
a while .we all agreed .you had to pay two shillings
to be a member and then a shilling a week it could have been six
pence I dont know .and I said does that mean now
that these people have paid up .dead silence and
Young said actually no he said we were going to talk to them
privately no I said you talk to them in front of us all
here .I was elected as Spokesman for them all and Mattie
Gaynor and the whole lot of them ..I knew I had them you
see ..I said these man stood out here on a floor and this is
what all these meetings are about and they havent been paid
up I said this is wrong why and they said they have to pay
their arrears or what ever you call it ..but anyway they
were that good with themselves it was only discovered
.we were drivers out the country .now what union
would we join only a transport union right ..so we were
saying that bla bla .the next thing was Seamus and Tommy
Grimes got in it and when they discovered that we were going to
be in the Transport union and they were in the bakers union that
we wouldnt have a branch you had to have so many
members to have a branch ..but they got on to a fellow in
Navan who was over the whole Meath and everything ..Connolly
was his name I never forgot him .Andy Connolly
I think ..

DC:Of
yes I know of him yes

MC:And he
came down then and told us we couldnt join the Transport
union that we had to join the bakers union.

This
is Danny Cusack and Im back here with Micheál Campbell
again and its the 15th February and we will take
up where we left off the last day.Micheál you were
mentioning your time in Fitzsimons and joining the bakers union
would you just take over from there and round off the
story ..

MC:Well what
happened at the time we were in no Union ..the government
was bringing in a law that we were entitled to a day off on a
Monday if we wanted it .so we were asked to join the union
as a matter of fact we didnt want to Join the union but Mr
Spicer had taken over at this stage and he came down and said
look Micheál ..that was his exact words he said I would
like you to join the union so I did we had no choice and I
was made the representative secretary to get all the boys cards
and all this so when we joined .what other union
would you join as salesmen only the transport union ..and
when we went to apply to the transport union we got cards and
all .Tommy Grimes was the man for the bakers union
.they discovered if we join the transport union there
was about six of us they had six bakers but between the two
they could have a branch of a union they would have a say
at conventions and all of that so they got on to some
Connolly man ..I said I am not joining the bakers union
so that would mean I would come in and show you my card and
start baking bread .and they said no you wont we are not
joining thatso ..there was controversy
over that anyway and they got on to a Connolly man in Navan and
he wouldnt let us join the transport union and we
eventually had to join the bakers union so we were going
around my time in it I had a bakers card .which it
wasnt my profession at the time .it took seven years
to serve your time as a baker .thats it.

DC:Thats how the problem was resolved.

MC:But they
worked in Fitzsimons time too ..Fitzsimons at the time
he would still be there but what happened him ..I
told you this before .the brewery folded and they tried to
keep the brewery going by selling assets .shops you name it
.they poured everything in to keep it going and they
brought everything else down with them ..the whole thing
folded it was an awful pity cause it could be going to this
day in the town and that was it the government played a big
part in it too .I believe some Lamass or somebody that was
it.

DC:That
was right I checked that with somebody ..Lamass came up and
what was the story .he would grant them an export licence
if they gave him shares .and they refused that.

MC:And the
next thing that when the summer came and we were looking forward
to it because it was carrying them over for the winter .it
was only about 1/10th of what they were selling the next
thing the whole place was flooded with German Larger .it
was cheap and all this and that was it .the whole thing
folded up.

DC:That was the end of the story.

MC:And brought the whole lot of them down with it and that was it.

DC:And Spicers eventually closed and moved to Navan in
1993/94.

MC:Thats right yes and we were all asked by him if we
didnt want to move he would pay us all for
whatever ..but sure I was young enough in 93 and I said well
Im not going so they gave them £25 a week for disturbance
money some fellows took the lump sum .I said no I
would take a chunk at the end of the week cause at that stage I
wasnt paying any tax .I was a pensioner it was great
and that is what happened .the killing part of the whole
Fitzsimons bakery .even though they had a whole lot of
trouble with the Grimes and Im not afraid to say it to them
you know and to this day its a shame to me they closed
Spicers in Kells .they said they...Didnt Seamus
Grimes said to me .who said it I said you said it
.and Tommy and them fellows .Alfie Farrelly was a
master baker Martin Sheridan was a master baker
.Jimmy O Brien ..but they were gentlemen .do you
know what I mean they just got on with their work and done their
work but the others had to be unions and threatening this that
and the other .they were no asset to the job at
all ..but the had recipes for bracks they were
all lost and they were really a treasure ..and for the plain
batch .it was unequal .people would be coming from
England and would be bringing them back with them
.thats a fact .and half dozens at a time
...bring them back with them because they couldnt be got
they were all lost all them recipes when the bakery
closed so that was it and of course that time they were
baked on the anthracite .which made for better
bread ..but that was all lost it was a pity .

DC:It
was a big loss as they say .good well thats the
bakery .you mentioned briefly that Helen King and Joe used
to have the sweet shop up in Cannon Street.

MC:Thats
right Helen was the secretary of the brewery .she was the
secretary to Mr Clydesdale was his name he was an English
man I think .but she got married then ..she was a
lovely lovely young woman like myself too, she might have
been a year older or two at the time, she got married to Joe
Eustace when the bakery folded .and he died a young man
.her husband and she opened a bed and breakfast or
something and carried on I dont know where she ever
went she had family I believe but where they went after
that I dont know .I dont know she died in Kells
anyway .thats where she finished up the rest of her
lifewas in Kells.

DC:Right and did they have the sweet shop in cannon street for a
while .

MC:Thats
right her father in law .it was a little saloon where
you could go in and have a glass of ice-cream or a mineral or a
bun or something like that ..old people went be on their
way home would go in Paddy Eustace was his name and Joe
Eustacewas a plasterer or some effect well that was to my
memory .which I would bet money on it

DC:Oh I trust your memory .is it where May Caffrey was later

MC:No May
Caffrey was in a man by the name of Charlie Bell he was the
tailor and he lived at the very corner .do you know where
there is an antique shop or there is something there now.

DC:A gift shop.

MC:The gift
shop thats right yes but May Caffrey was there on the
very corner .there was nothing going down Suffolk Street
.she had a wonderful .ah she built up a good business
in it May, and you used to see it at Easter ..well you
couldnt get in the shop with eggs .people used to
come and take photographs and she wouldnt have one left out
of maybe a thousand eggs would you believe that thats
true and she would probable tell you herself .

DC:Yeah she did, I have spoken to her.

MC:Ah if you seen them and at that time they could have been ten
pound do you know which was two weeks wages .and
they would be sold.

DC:She cornered the market .in Kells anyway.

MC:Her dad
worked in the bakery .he was the man that checked out the
bread ..Benny Caffrey he worked with Fitzsimons
..but he didnt work with Spicers .he retired at
that stage and the old man that used to label the beer in the
brewery Charlie Geraghty .he took over he was the man and
at that time they were put into wooden boxes they werent
modernised at all .you know they would be two dozen in a
wooden box .thats the way you were handed them for
your van or whatever .

DC:I
wonder would you say a little bit more about your own personal
background. Maudlin and Loyd, just your early life in the town
until you got married and moved out here .

MC:I was born
in Maudlin as I told you before, me Dad and Mum moved to
Loyd .they got a house one of those houses in Loyd it
must have been 1933 when they moved there .I think it was
the big snow at the time .you will find out anyway from a
more intelligent fellow than me ..but growing up there was
six houses and of all those six houses there is only fellow that
grew up with me .is living in all them houses .the
rest of them went to England ..they died in England
.the nieces went to Australia the Smiths went out of
Loyd, there is none of them left in it at all ..one of them
is the main dealer for Curran oil down in Oldcastle .we had
a great relationship at the time .the war was just on when
we were going to school at the finish of the war I was about 15
.yeah 13 and you just couldnt get anything .we
had it all ..you never had to buy anything only
bread ..which was loaf bread for sandwiches or something
bread and tea we had our own milk we had our own
vegetables everything like that potatoes everything was just
handmade eggs and everything, and I remember my mum used to bring
in a basket of eggs she would have nearly six dozen but she had
to walk to the town with them everyone walked everywhere
and trading them in ..she wouldnt get money she would
get butter country butter ..thats the way it was
and you would go to the shop and she would be trading in
something else for a bag of flour that was a big bag
of flour .nothing went to waste at the time .when that
bag of flour was empty .the sack was cut and the next place
you saw it was maybe in a couple of months time there would be
three bags and it was a sheet for the beds that was it and every
..and I remember then ah sure we were Id say we
were as bold as the next fellow was at trashing and things like
that and we would be playing cowboys and Indians .we
had a great life and we never wanted anything .we never
wanted food .ah you might have been looking for a pair of
boots or something like that .but you always got them at
Christmas .if you didnt get them at Christmas you
wouldnt get them at tall ..and the first thing that
was done with them is your dad .the man of the house put
two rows of nails around the edge of them so they would last you
the whole year .you would play football with them we done
everything with them ..and at the summer we hung them up
and walked in our bare foot to school .I had three
brothers and seven sisters in my family .there is
only four of us left out of the whole lot now ..the four
sisters worked in the shoe factory in Kells at the time I
remember .I didnt understand it at the time but I was
working with George Armstrong at the time riding out horses with
him and I remember the day they were earning 3 or 4 pound
each and bringing it home and at time it was marvellous .mum
started to relax she didnt need to be working like a slave
..I can remember all them things and every house was in the
same boat .I spent the day here with Noel V Ginnity and
Noel came down to see me and he spent the day with me .and
he was going through the whole thing and I was laughingas
the fellow out was famous and I said do you remember the times
that Im after telling you about going to the town and he
said I remember me dad ..he was a detective and he coming
home every month .once a month he would come home he said
and we would have to go into Skellys .that was the
local store .where everybody dealt and that man would have
to be paid £12 and that was he said we were good then for
another ..Noel V if he was here he would tell you the same
thing .not ashamed he is a wealthy man nowand sure
he is one of the tops in Ireland .top comedians .we
were all in the same boat at the time ..and even if you had
money you couldnt get a tyre for your bike or anything like
that .everyone would tell you the same thing .

DC:Recycling is fashionable now .you were recycling everything
then as a matter of cause .

MC:Ill
never forgive my parents if they were here now I wouldnt
give them As Gaeilge .for sending me to school in
Kells I would have preferred to have gone to school in
Drumbaragh where I was playing my football and it was just
unfortunate but I survived .I think Im a
good survivor .I met a girl for Kilskyre then, ah we went
out with people and I went out with girls I dont know why
we came back and met each other and fell in love that was it and
we got married ..we have four of a family a son is in
America he has three children, boys twins who are mad footballers
they are nine year old and a baby who is a year and a
half .I have a daughter in Scotland and another working
above in the North for the British government or something up
there .and another in America what do you call it
holiday business in America thats
it I never regret anything .the whole big transport thing
at the time was the train .it was the most important thing
to all the people in Loyd .as a matter of fact it was better
than anything .the buses are nothing but the train
.it came if we were working and we would have no
watches or anything at the time ..the train came at five o
clock every evening and if you wanted to get the train to Dublin
in the morning it went at half eight you left here at
eight o clock and you got up to Dublin for maybe a half crown you
might have wanted to shopping for clothes for us and they were
back that evening at six o Clock you would be met at
the station with a pram .to wheel home whatever she bought
.that was it, but the train was thee thing at the time
.for farmers getting downmanure for their land
..bringing cattle when they would sell them .the good
straits they would call them .up to Dublin or
whatever that was it Id say it was one of the
most important things ever that hit the town and it was a shame
it ever stopped.

DC:It
was important for freight and passengers you know .and I
have spoken to Gus Healy and Sean Flanagan both who have
worked with the railway .they told me a lot about the
railway.

MC:Thats
right and a man who we are talking about he used to have a
special train come down with his manure for his land .he
had a lot of land, George Armstrong .we as young fellows
that time, me self and Pad Black and another fellow, we would
have to go ..and the bags were only that size .but
there was 200 weight in them and you would have to get a loan of
a wheelbarrow to shove them on to a tractor that time
Flanagans father, Josie Flanagan worked ...he was the
maintenance man along the line ..do you know the little
blocks for keeping it he would have to make sure that they
were secured in the thing for the trains at the
time ..at that time you would race the train it
wouldnt be going that fast we knew them all and we
would be down at the bridge .they would come and the smoke
out of it and do you know you would be running then and hiding
..

DC:Ah the sooner we get a train line back the better it wont
be tomorrow or the next day but

MC:It went
through George Armstrongs land .it divided it in two
the train .from Sheeney bridge down there ..do you
know where Kieran well is .the train line ran across that
.right up into George Armstrongs land and came out at
the railway where it is now ..He owned that land where the
new houses are built on the Mullingar road and the far side of
it .right down the whole way to Sheeney which is about four
mile and the Drummonds ..he still owns it actually
.and that man I think Jim Armstrong he bought land do you
know where the Spire lane is going up to the tower .well
the bought the land there there is a little house right
opposite the gate ..they bought all that land on your left
.it runs into their land at the back .they excavated
the whole thing .they are lovely lads I only know two of
them I wouldnt know the young lad George I
think he is in England all of the time .

DC:They own an enormous amount of land the Armstrongs and down
that side of Kells ..

MC:There was
Armstrongs down in Chapelbride but they werent
related .down where Johnny Brady the TD lives .you
wouldnt know that country now .if youre going
to Balrath going to Mullingar and you come to Balrath cross
.do you know where Balrath Cross is ? well Balrath Cross is
only over there it would be left to me but if you turn
right well they live down there Chapelbride .is the name of
the place .there was supposed to have been a chapel in it
at some time I heard .did you ever hear anything of the
hanging field .

DC:No I
was going to come on to that .you mentioned that the last
day and would you just explain about the butchers hanging
out their carcasses .

MC:Im
not sure about that but I know me dad lord have mercy on
him and what happened was that he .they used to call
it the hanging field ..there was the Wild Loyd, the hanging
field , the Assocker but I said to him Dad why did the call
it the hanging field oh he said the butchers used to kill
the cattle and hang them there or something to that
effect ..and I remember a shed being in it alright
.galvanised shed maybe it was some fellow it
wasnt a butcher ..at that times you had fellows going
around collecting dead calves and all whatever ..but they
called it the hanging field ..Im sure its on
the Council map.

DC:I
can make enquiries and see what was the story

MC:Well if
there is a story will you do me a favour .just give me a
buzz or drop in but let me know because I remember it being
called the hanging field and I didnt know I thought
somebody was hanged in it ..you know but it wasnt that at
all .then there was the race course I dont
remember that the horse racing but I remember we used
to have to go catching hares for the coursing and that was a big
day .you know ..all the towns people were in that
Tommy Morris and any fellow that had Greyhounds and Jimmy Murray
was the slipper they called him and how I know all this I
had to supply the horse for the referee or the man what
would you call him .the fellow he would have two hankies a
white and a red and he would take it out of his pocket and I
would have to go down ..George Armstrong would supply the
horse .I was the young fellow I would have to have him down
the day of the course ..your man would get it up on the
horse with the dogs and whatever dogs .the dogs would have
a white or a red colour and he would take out the white and
thats it the bookies would start paying out but
Jimmy Murray and his three brothers worked in Armstrongs
there was Tommy and Paddy all their lives. They were there
and they were old men when they died .Jimmy Murray was the
slipper he was married to a girl who had a .I
dont know if you know Lynchs Pharmacy in Kells

DC:I
do.

MC:Well she
owned that .she was a chemist .his wife she was
Roseanne Carolan .I think you told me something about her
brother here the last time .Benny Carolan ..

DC:Thats
right who is Kitty Carolans husband.

MC:This woman
was a sister of .she was Roseanne Carolan who was married
to Jimmy Murray and they lived out in Grangegodden .now the
funny thing is .you would say where Grange godden
.there is is three houses there is this house and
Sullivans is next and you go down do you know where the
football field is .

DC:I
could hear them shouting when I parked the car.

MC:Well you
see there is no house and then there is when you go by the
football field there is another cottage ..well that is
where Grangegodden starts and it goes right round and up the
Cookstown road for about three miles .and this is Febog here
.and Grangegodden starts there and it goes in right through
the town and right up thats where Jimmy Murray lived
Grangegodden .all the different addresses

DC:You
mentioned the Y Loyd is that what you mentioned whats
that now?

MC:The Wild
Loyd is below on the Kieran well road .because it was never
tilled and it was always just for cattle with humps and lumps in
it and then they came along and bulldozed it and levelled it and
it wasnt Wild Loyd anymore .but they do call it Wild
Loyd and put potatoes in it and everything I remember
digging spuds in it well I was married even and the council
done it you pay so much for a drill or two and whatever and
they done you for the whole year well that hanging
field .do you know where Loyd where they have all the shop
below

DC:Oh
yeah the business centre?

MC:Yes the
business centre .just when you turn in there there is
a big hill up to your left you can see the tower
thats the hanging field to my reckoning I think
thats the hanging field so what ever is after
that .we used to .all you had to was come up to the
Spire and walk down one field we lived in them houses for
the coursing we always got in for nothing cause we would go
on a Sunday hunting / catching the hares for the men and you got
a little trupenny bottle of lemonade thats what we went for
and a bun .but all them men are dead and gone ..Tommy
Morris was over it ..all Greyhound men ...but it was a big
day ..I remember meeting Noel Purcell I was introduced to
him .Noel Purcell came down to it Jimmy O `Dea
..I couldnt believe my luck when I saw this fellow
Jim Cumiskey he was in Kells and he .do you know this man
and sure I knew him to see.

DC:From
Carrick Street ..the Cumiskeys from Carrick Street .

MC:No this
man was from Cross Carrick ...he was a he must have been in
England or something and knew all these fellows and used to come
down visiting him .I dont know was he a mechanic or
what now .ah he is long dead and gone but a real quiet man
.I remember meeting Noel Purcell and Jimmy O `Dea used to
come down to the coursing thats a long time ago

DC:So
they would come down from Dublin on a day trip

MC:Yes
thats it for the day but I dont remember the horse
racing it was before my time .but they said it never should
have happened

DC:That
was on the other side of the road .I think where Zenith is
or where Zenith was that was the race course .

MC:Yes it
started at the end of the town where the new Super Valu or not
Super Valu.

DC:Aldi.

MC:Yes
thats right but then they have the water reservoir up
beside it thats up on the top of Loyd that
filters the water going in from the Blackwater that came from
Oldcastle, Lough Bawn is it Lough Sheelin .they used
to have problems there with the water they wouldnt
have enough...Kells got to be a big spot like .do you know
where you are going out of Loyd now when youre
leaving the town going out to the tower People walking
.I remember there was noting .do you know where St
Kiernans well is now there was no houses there was
one house from there up to Loyd .just one house and now
there is houses on both sides ..factories and bla bla .do
you know and we would run across the fields from school and we
would rob an old garden on the way and the Kells fellows would be
waiting for us with the lovely red apples ah sure nobody ever
past any heed of us anyway .it was the devilment of it and
that was it .

DC:You
mentioned the Armstrongs the obviously had a big role in
the life of the town could you say a little bit more about
them perhaps and the racing of cattle and the Friday market day
and Pairc Colmcille and just that aspect .

MC:My
recollection of the Armstrongs was the father was a
Solicitor WO Armstrong and the boss man we used to call him
master George when he took over but they would have maybe a
hundred cattle now we were only young lads and we would
have to have them in the fair on the green at four o clock on
fair day ..now they wouldnt have .maybe once
every couple of months but they would meet a man they
were Woods big cattle buyers Willie Woods and
the sons there is none of them left at all now ..and
he kept the three sons they would go
around .Tommy Willie, and Paddy and John he had four
sons and they would go around them hundred cattle now there
could have been ninety or there could have been 120 and look for
faults in the cattle and they would come back .I
remember seeing them and they would look at there father and nod
he would get Old Armstrongs hand .Lord have
Mercy on him he was a gentleman and would be slapping and in two
minuets they would have the deal done ..and we would go with
them over to the station we had no dogs we had no nothing
and drive them cattle over to the station and there would be a
big pen where you would put them and there was a fellow there
his name was Dan Cross ..I never forgot him
he was the contraryiost he would load the cattle so
many to a thing them cattle would be there all day and then
they would head off and the whole train would be full there
was a fellow that used to buy them .by the name of Van
Lanegan and he went bust .and some of the farmers got an
awful kick with him .I think he was Dutch or something
anyway .it sounds Dutch to me ..

DC:It
does

MC:But the
fatstock show that Armstrongs ran it was a great
chance for the farmers all around thats why they
appreciated ..all farmers maybe would have one good heifer
or a bullock and they never got to show it only at the fatstock
show .we put up the things once a year and it would always
be before Christmas and maybe a small farmer would win a prize or
come second and he would get top prize for a heifer that maybe he
would only get a hundred pound .he might get maybe three or
four hundred pound for the fact that maybe the butcher would want
the best to display in the shop you see ..and that was great
for the farmers all around .so there would be hundreds of
cattle in it that was it and they sold them in the ring
then after they made up a big ring and a shed ..where maybe
you could have ten cattle and put them in and you bid on them and
they were sold in minuets like you know .that was
it but they were always a great asset to the town I
saw as much as twenty men working in Armstrongs .I
wouldnt be doing physical work I would be riding out the
horses they would be making hay there was only a
tractor at the time there was no balers..there was no
nothing the hay had to be cut and turned with forks and put
up you know cropped and brought in on a horse and cart and
they would call it a slide I remember working too and put
the whole crop on top of the slide and brought it then our
job was to pitch it up and you had to pack it .sure we
would be sleeping in it half of the time thats what
we would do on a wet day on a day you would be supposed to
be packing it and sure we would get a rest .but I have to
say about Armstrongs anything you ever worked for you got
paid for it and you never had to ask for it do you know you
never had to ask for it if you done anything at all you got
paid for it .and the two girls that are in there now
Daphne never worked while Hazel did .she was the
Solicitors clerk .she only got so much pay
.like the same as everyone else like.

DC:Thats
Daphne now .

MC:No Daphne
was the elder one, Hazel was the solicitors
clerk ..there was another one I forget she was a Mrs. O
Neil, or something .she is dead anyway she died .one
lived to be a marvellous age .George was 88 or something.

DC:He
was.

MC:And the
father was an old man too and the mother she was from Bonnington
down in Westmeath .she was an ONeill ..I
remember she was a lovely lovely woman when I would be going at
the horses, she would have to collect his horse .down to
Jimmy Wilson in Bolton and collect the horse on a frosty morning
and bring them down to Dromone in Oldcastle and be there .I
would be going in the dark and I would arrive there at about half
ten in the evening and he would come in a little car
and he would get up on the horse and say did you get on all
right they didnt know and I would think he
would never go, because I would have a big case of sandwiches,
tea egg and onion sandwiches and there was another fellow
there that worked for John C Brady and he used to hunt too I
remember him .did you ever hear of John C Brady down in
Blackwater House .

DC:Oh
yes the Bradys.

MC:Yes and
his man was Dessie Thornton .but ya see Dessie was a
bachelor at the time and Bradys would have no one working
and he would have no sandwiches, and he would look at me and wink
.we would have enough for the two of us all day he
died a young man too.

DC:Did
he?

MC:Dessie
Thornton my father worked for him after I suppose the
fact that I was friendly with him .like he kept him there
all the time.

DC:The
ONeills married into the Armstrongs .are
any of those O Neills left around Kells.

MC:No, oh
there is one in Kilskyre eh what was his name at all
he is first cousins of the Armstrongs anyway.

DC:He
is not David by any chance is he?

MC:No he is
Frank .Frank O Neill and he lives and I dont
know do you know Scurlogstown.

DC:Oh I
do yes

MC:Well if
you were going from Scurlogstown over to Kilskyre...on that road
there is big iron gates, and that is where he lives .ah you
would get him in the book anyway.

DC:No I
was just curious.

MC:Oh you
might get information of him.

DC:Sure

MC:But Hazel
would tell you .she would know too like you
know .they are very very well read like. Do you know what I
mean .I hope you do get ?

DC:Oh I
will I will Ill make it my business to go
through Sam now ..and try and line up an audience .

MC:And if you
got them in a good mood ..they are lovely, and they would
love the chat with you cause nobody ever goes in to them .I
used to go into them to collect the pools of them there and Jesus
I would be an hour they wouldnt let me out, a cup of
tea and all that it would be Micheál do you remember such
a thing and all that ah sure it was this that and the
other .do you know .that was it.

DC:You
would be able to bounce of each other because you know people and
places in common .they would enjoy you for that
..Drumbaragh and the football club I think was a big part
of your life would you just say a few words about that

MC:O yes,
Drumbaragh my god .Drumbaragh was always thats
why I always missed out because in 1937 I did a history of
Drumbaragh football club .and I didnt know this but
when I went to do it .it took me 5 years to write it I
was looking at all the old people are dead the last
one of them died there last week, he was prayed for but
they had no football club and the war,`37 was coming on and bla
bla and they couldnt get this that and the other .but
they decided that they were going to have a football team and a
fellow went around with a hat .now this is what I was told
.it was the young fellow that was there .he was the
first to fire the penny he had a penny and fired it into
the hat and that was me ..they told me I was only seven year
old .but they told me I was the first to put a penny in the
hat for Drumbaragh but it was my club down the years .I was
secretary, I was chairman, I was everything and a wonderful man
came to our district that time Basil Jordan if he heard me
calling him that Basil Mac Suilatean he never
spoke anything to me only Irish ..

DC:You
mentioned him before yes.

MC:I did yes
.he was a lovely man and he put everything together for us
and you know like .and its still there the club like
but they were all backed up by Uncles of mine and sons of
fellows that helped out you know like .the
Smiths .Terry Smiths the Blacks .that was
it.

DC:And
thats what Jordan did .did he teach in the
school he was an Irish Teacher.

MC:He was a
native speaker.

DC:And
he taught in DrumbaraghSchool.

MC:He came
here in 1947 ..I told you about him coming on the bike.

DC:You
didnt no

MC:Well he
came here in 1947, because it was the year of the bad harvest
.we heard that when he was coming that he had ..I
told him all this in Irish and if he heard me .he had two
of a family and sure we were delighted hoping that they were
boys, about six or seven to play football and the next thing
was they were two girls ..and to this day I know them
.they might call to see me an odd time they are married and
bla bla .but he came at that time and he came up from
Roscommon on his Bicycle and he went down to the Parish Priest,
was Fr. Mc Cullen at the time in a interview for the job in
Drumbaragh and he got the job .and he rode back the same day
to Roscommon on his bicycle and the next thing after the couple
of years he got a little car .he used to go to Mass
every morning and he was telling me all this afterwards and the
school now if you saw it a lovely school .but when he
had to get up in the wintertime at seven O Clock and he would
have to go out and light a fire and there was a big boiler in the
school, for pipes went around heating it
up there was a special boiler at the side of the
thing it had .to make a long story short .and by the
time he came back from Mass went in and had his breakfast and the
school would start at half nine ..the kids would come in and a
ten o clock the water would be boiling and he made them all a cup
of coco now not tea cause he couldnt get tea and that
was it but he was .he was an old man when he died but he
had a lovely wife you know ...now to this day if the girls
meet me .we speak in Irish they will not speak
English .you know I havent all that much Irish
but I have a good bit but they will speak Irish to ya I
was looking for a book that I wanted to get something out of it
and I rang and she said I got that it was all Irish and she
said Ill send it to you I got it later on.

DC:And
how did you get your gra for the Irish was it through a
particular teacher in the Christian Brothers or did you just pick
it up.

MC:No, I had
no choice .well (Micheál speaks in Irish) so what Im
telling you is I had a great gra for it when I was going to
school and when I was finished school, I went to night school and
people tell me you have a bit of Irish from Munster so Im
saying the teachers I had at the time came from the four corners
of Ireland do you know what I mean.

DC:As
they say you have a bit of the four dialects..

MC:Well you
would have to, cause you would have one Brother from Cork another
one from Kerry and then we would have teachers from Connemara you
know .but it is lovely like my girls did honours Irish
when they were growing up going to school and then I would laugh
at them .when they wanted to get something off me without
their mum knowing .she hasnt a word they would
be asking in Irish .she would say what do they want now
(Idle chat) More Táe.

DC:Of
course down the road in Rathcairn, it is all Connemara Irish of
course because it

MC:It is yes.

DC:Ill
just throw a few names at you Johnny Olohan, the Bells and
the Doyles .Pat Tady and Kanes would you just
say a couple of words about them .

MC:Yes,
Johnny Olohan at the time there was only the one Auctioneer and
he was Johnny Olohan but he worked for Armstrong Auctioneers and
they were very well respected .he was George
Armstrongs right hand man .as a matter of fact I
would safely say that young George Armstrong at the time learned
from him there father was a Solicitor and George was
.and they sold everything land everything now
that Johnny Olohan, then he started out on his own he got
married his wife died he started out on his own the
second time and sure when George came on the scene that was
it .who did you say then !

DC:The
Bells and the Doyles .do you know what was the
contacts then ..

MC:There was
Bells they were great handballers now .oh the Bells
were groceries, they were business people I used to see ads at
the time, we used to see it, Bells of Kells giving a speedy
service .they had a shop now where a big shop .do you
know where young Doyle has a jewellery shop that was a .right
opposite Fitzsimons well they owned the shop the far side and
then they moved from there over to the .do you know where
the post office is now .they had a big shop there
Bells...and they used to go and deliver everywhere
there was a bottling place in Kells, Reilly
Brothers .did you know where that was the bottlers the
Taypots the called it .

DC:Oh
yea, the Taypots Reillys

MC:The young
lad has the name out there, Jimmy he does

DC:B
&B and breakfasts ..

MC:Thats
right His old grandfather .do you know where
McGees pub is now .well that was a bottling store and
where they bottled the Guinness and they delivered it around the
country and there is caves (cellars)...my son has the
rent of it now within, in town

DC:Of
course he does .

MC:They were
Reilly Brothers and they would be on the go, Joe Kellett worked
for them, Terry Hook Tom Freeman .such names but they
were Taypots but Pat Thady was a different man he was up
where Dukes was I think and there was two Miss
Gingles lived up beside them and they used to sell fish
every Friday just at the bottom of Church Lane .and
then the next one was Pat Dalys but he had the pub on one
side and the shop on the other where Dukes was .Pat Thady
they used to call him Thady Dick .I remember that was it
.there was a story told about him whats this I used to
hear ..the Guards were raiding him one night and he
shouted you know would be a few fellows in after hours
is it a drink you want or a transfer that was
the story .but I remember him well he was a big
62 man and had a big moustache do you know at the
time and always dressed immaculate and next door to him at
the time there was Foxs ..Paddy Fox I think he used
to box for Ireland ..they had a drapers .Bells
were tailors there was Jimmy Bell and there was Charlie
Bell and there son is there today, Bobbie, there was only the one
Bell, he is left .the fathers were Tailors they were
Protestant people but that didnt make them bad people
.they were grand people everyone dealt with them you know
like you know what I mean.

DC:You
mentioned the Pantomimes ...names like Billy Woods senior.

MC:Willie
Woods ah they were brilliant .Willie Woods wrote all
the funny scripts for it and then they would fill it with songs
.Fr. Rispin,built that chapel down there with the
proceeds from the Pantomime .it was meant to go on for a
fortnight and it would go on for six weeks and we would get
fed up of it you know doing the same things over and over all the
time and you got nothing .not even into the dance free
we used to go cause all the young ones would be into the
dancing ..dancing with them at the time ..sure they
were marvellous .they would be dancing for the year what do
they call them the Proms and we were all pioneers at the
time .you wouldnt have had any money for
drink they had great artists at that time the woman I
walked the dogs for she was Joan Hammond .did you ever
hear Joan Hammond singing or Lorraine Page ..she sings at
weddings and she sings at funerals Ave Maria and all that
stuff .and you had a fellow over here from Lynchs
Cross on the way to Clonmellon Sean Murray .but now,
they have to pay professionals for Pantomimes and they are losing
money on it do you know and I said this before to you only
for John Grant I dont know if you know John

DC:Oh,
I know John well ..

MC:Well John
Grant and Ill say this for him only for him there would be
nothing in the town .he has the pantomime still going
.he has the drama still going .he is teaching kids
drama fair play to him Id hate to see all that going
to .

DC:He
is dynamic alright.

MC:I said to
my wife the other day Jean I said, I hope Danny is watching
that .Danny who she said, Danny Cusack .it was on the
news at 6 O Clock or after six or something it was all about
Kells.

DC:I
was down in Dublin at the time and I missed it but I keep
on hearing about it.

MC:They
showed the old bakery going down John Street, and all the shops
that were closed and still closing, and they were saying this
that and the other and what do you call him Kiernan
who has the boot shop beside young Doyle .Jacksie, and
Vincent Duff below in the hotel they said whoever did it
only showed the doom and gloom they edited it, they
said good things about Kells, Jacksie Kiernan said good things
and so did Vincent Duff but they didnt put that on
the news .Mr Duff was saying he was mad with them do you
know that they only showed the down and out side of it .

DC:They
just wanted the doom and gloom story .

MC:But you
look at all the places that have closed .garages you name
it .

DC:And
Jack Murphys just recently

MC:Exactly Sure
I remember Paddy Laraceys is closed now, and next door was Frank
Gray had a big garage .where the woman has the sweet shop
and Kelly the vet had a place next door to it the vet had a
office there ..you could bring your animals in there was a
guest house ah sure it was there for a hundred years
she was a Miss Murphy, related to Joe Murphy .Joe had
a pub in Kells and Sonny Murphy and all the dealers that
would come to the fair day and shed have there dinner and
they would stay the night if they got drunk she had ten or
twelve rooms .you know .Cissie Murphy was her name
.you probably heard about her now.

DC:Was
she in Suffolk Street or down in Bective Street or Farrell Street

MC:She was in
Farrell Street beside Paddy Laraceys on the same side there
is a big wide opening there where Butlers lived, that owned the
shop there that Fitzsimons had Annie and one of them got
married to a man in Crossakiel they are all dead .you
know they were very old people, Its a shame to see them
dead.

DC:So
the Pantomimes and the annual one, just finished the other night
in Kells they are very much the centre of life in Kells
over the years

CM:Oh yes
..I took a good part in the pantomimes .I was the
giant in Jack and I did the desert song with Marionabove we were
the leading role when there was no one else
..John Grant would tell you they lost the chaps that
are in it ...they had something going there they would have
to bring someone down to do it .Joseph and his amazing dream
coat.

DC:Technicolor
dream coat.

MC:Or
whatever Im not into it .but they lost 7 or 8 grand
on that .do you know because they had to pay the fellow
.its a shame.

DC:And
you mentioned some of the other talent George Mc Govern.

MC:Ah yes,
George is still there and there is a lot of his
brothers there is only two of them left I think. Addie and
George ..George was a kind of a comedian he never had
much to say all he could do was come out on the stage and an old
cap on him and say yeah the place would erupt
he would have no dialect at all.

DC:No
script or dialogue?

MC:And
Jesus is was a pantomime .oh indeed I was in it with
him ..had parts with him we were wooing the same one
up here .it was a play what was the name of it ..a
match made in heaven .Tick Tock or whatever the name of it
was and George was in it and he finished up with her anyway and I
didnt .ah he was great but all the McGoverns
were great singers and the Mulvanys were something
else they were brilliant singers the Mulvanys
.Colm Mulvaney was in Mickey Berne was thee king at
the time I dont know if anyone told you about
him ..

DC:I
know the name he was in Tara Shoes

MC:Yes, but
he was in the Pantomimes every one of them with Willie Woods and
Mickey Berrill ..Im sure if you got chatting to
him .if you wanted stuff on the pantomime .he has old
tapes and everything on the pantomimes and you would hear some of
the stuff you know .but he is an old man now .but he
was brilliant absolutely brilliant he was the dame
all the time .

DC:Was
he?

MC:Oh yeah
and Charlie Mc Entrée was another lad .what do you
call him ..Charlie that buries the people?

DC:Cathal?
That it the son

MC: Cathal is the
solicitor

DC:Rory
is the solicitor

MC: I and
Cathal was in the pantomimes But they had great talent
.Margie Rourke and Brian O Neill and them they are
all in the Pantomimes .stage managers and all that you know
..they were absolutely brilliant stuff but that time
the Pantomimes would be packed out to the door every
night ..Monday, Tuesday,whatever night it would be on
it would be packed ..the built the new church with that
.you know Fr. Rispin .

DC:A
credit to them .the Woods now of Latimore house .what
are they to Willie Woods?

MC:Willie
Woods that was his home.

DC:Thats
right he was the father.

MC:Willie was
the father that was in the Pantomimes now .and he got
married to a girl and the opened that place .he was the
buyer for cattle that was him and then Paddy and John lived
opposite the church that is where the home place was .and
Willie got married of course and went on and that was the
first bed and breakfast that was around there .it was there
for a hundred years Id say .and Willie died a young man
.its still going out there Latimore house its still B
& B and young Willie is in it now .

DC:Billy

MC:And the
other young lad used to come in the bread van with me he has
the pub now adin (within) the Archers .Edmond
.and Bernard was killed of course .they had no sister
as far as I know .I remember Willie telling me she
was Malone his wife Mrs Woods a lovely woman from Drogheda
or someplace and they never let us when they had a new song
a parody .they would never let us hear it cause we would go
and be telling everyone .they went to reach us all on the
night of the thing .so we would be all fellows with
minor parts so we would be put they would rehearse and that
was it.

DC:A
couple of other names just to finish off with, Helen Hunt and
then you mentioned Brian Farrelly and Dick Farrelly .just a
word about them.

MC:Helen Hunt
she was later on .she was in the shows she was
in the South Pacific with Sean Monaghan .they came on the
scene after the pantomime and she was a choreographer I think
she was big into whatever productions and all that
..Dick Farrelly owned there was two Dick
Farrellys there was a Dick Farrelly that wrote
the Isle of Innisfree well he lived up beside where Dr
Lappin had the dispensary there.

DC:Oh
is that where he lived.

MC:His father
had a pub its gone anyway .thats another pub
that is gone.

DC:Was
it the Stray Acre most recently?

MC:Its gone
its closed altogether whats in it now...Dr.
Lappin bought it its his now where he had the
reception room ..but his father I remember him he
used to wear the stiff collars we would only be young at the
time and we see it and a hard hat and that was it and
Charlie O Hay used to be another man over there right beside the
old school Dick Farrelly was another man Brian
Farrelly and sons .it was the merchants and Philly Sheridan
.did you ever get talking to Philly?

DC:I
did not, No .

MC:Philly
Sheridan now is about 80 and he was in all the Pantomimes with me
and Colm Mulvany, Paddy Curran would be another man but he was
only in the Musicals later on Kells goes way back, Danny,
to when they used to come from Athboy .the operettas and
they done all them ..I know men that were in it and they are old
men now...ninety and all and they used to come to Kells to do the
operettas and would come to the place up in Carrick Street
Joe Cumiskey Tom Cumiskey they were all
brilliant singers and Vera Cumiskey was in the Pantomimes
she took a big part, she would always be the Robin
Hood the lady always took the lead of a man .she was
beautiful singer too .and Margo Kiernan ..Margo
Davis ..?

DC:Yes
grew up in Suffolk Street

MC:Thats
right did you ever read her book .

DC:I
did .I have it I flicked through it anyway ..

MC:I had it
to I would be .she was very nice every
photograph she has in it she is sitting on my knee I never
went out with her .it just worked that way and she
said Micheál Campbell was one of the rat pack .there was
Marie and Jimmy the Cricket (Morris) .were you talking to
him. How did he

DC:Ah
he was grand .I had to go back to him the other day after
you to photograph him no he was grand.

MC:He would
be telling you the same as I am telling you

DC:I
told him I was out with you alright you know he just said
you are very good with the Irish and all that...

MC:They used
to copy off me at school, thats why, and I used to copy
something else off them ah Cricket we were great and poor
Paddy Duff died a young man you know ...we were great
friends you couldnt imagine I never knew
when you were that young the women that Jimmy could pull ...you
know at the time he had a car ya see, and that was the
attraction .thats why he would say to me, Im
the best man for 51 and look at you six foot! Every
time I do meet him Id say youre the best
man .even to this day youre the best man for
51 .but his father was a sheep man he would go
to the west and buy lorry loads of sheep, come on the train
here and he would sell them to all the farmers around
.that was the job. Paddy Morris and Tommy Morris lives up
Suffolk Street beside May Caffrey .and his father was a
dealer in calves, and go down and buy a load of calves somewhere
in the north and in the west and he would come home and sell them
you know they would be lucky and he would be dealing with
them .that was it ...they were big into that like.

DC:Is
there any connections between those Morriss? Between
Jimmys father and Tommys father or are they ..

MC:They were
brothers.

DC:Ah I
see .

MC:And then
there was Francie Morris who was the .Francie was a barber
and there was Jimmy Morris they were all brothers
..Jimmy and Francie and Tommy and Paddy below in
Maudlin Tommy lived up in Church Lane up near where Seamie
Grimes lives .his son is Tommy Morris he had a little shop
and you would see him walking a little dog around here
every day out this road he would have a tide of stories to
tell you too and Flanagan .were you ever talking to Joe
Flanagan? You were talking to Sean?

DC:I
was.

MC:Id
say Joe would be more into it he is older like .he is over
eighty years of age and he would know more .very nice
fellows you know.

DC:And
you mentioned the Tevlins and the Blacksmiths?

MC:I think
there was three Blacksmiths in the town at that time ..there
was him and Frank Fitzsimons and Pa Gibney was the mans
name yeah he was married to an aunt of mine no he was
married to my uncles wife ...it was his daughter .they
lived opposite May Caffrey .

DC:Thats
right she pointed it out to me.

MC:She told
you that to .well Im fairly right then so

DC:Youre
dead on .that exactly where it was.

MC:Tevlins
were the hard men you know they would think nothing you
bring in a donkey and you would have to tell them he was a kicker
ah dont worry we will straighten him out they
would catch the donkey and turn him upside down .do you
know and they were only small little fellows .they used to
go on shows doing tricks and everything like that they were wild
characters ...I was at school with one of them Jodi ..and
when Jodi would be late for school ..would you believe
this .when Jodi would be late for school you would hear him
coming at the gate and if he didnt he would have been beat
senseless he would have to sing Im coming Im
coming by the time he would get to the door poor old Joe
.do you know that song?Im coming Im
coming and if he didnt and the master said here is
Tevlin and that was it he would sit down .hard men.But they did a great tradelike you know everyone at
that time was very respectful people and of course Conlons were
one of the best in the town, Anthony Conlon owned the cinema and
he owned the two boots shops ...one where the Takeaway is now at
the Cross and the other one where Dom Tighe had there is a
bookies in it now .well they were big my wife worked
there when she got married doing book keeping for them and they
had a mannequin for women they were very very big into the
business like you know.

DC:It
strikes me when you are rattling off all these family names you
have seen big changes in Kells over the years with all the
business and families gone

MC:We would
go in for a drink now off a Sunday morning and there is fellows
that are a couple of years younger than me and they would make
sure they would tell me every Sunday .we would be talking
about the government they helped the didnt help
anything you know Fianna Fail didnt help
anything the statements that Johnny Brady made .that
he couldnt live on 200,000 a year ..do you know
like .and his wife has a job of 40,000 so what chance
has a fellow thats only getting a hundred and eighty on the
dole .he has no chance at all .and thats what we
are talking about all the places that are closed and they
remember them and they remember the whole countryside when you
couldnt get up the town of a market day not a fair
day .with horses and carts and chickens and eggs and you
name itwas there for the taken .do you know where
Market street is now there is New Market Street and Market
Street and then they had the market yard ..it would be
packed with people and bags of spuds and everything .you
would get them for maybe 2 shillings at the time that was it and
the best of everything ..and I remember my mum buying
calves adin in that place too ..and you would get the calf
for maybe two or three pound .it was a lot of money like
but we would have to halter him and bring him home .young
lads that time and you would be delighted with a new calf in the
garden giving him milk and all that .that was our
life .

DC:Of
course it was.

MC:That was
the way we were reared and that was it but I remember
getting the job in Fitzsimons in the bakery and the man said to
me didnt you work for us in the brewery and I said yes at
this stage they had sunk everything ..I didnt realise
it at the time ..but the bakery was gone it was from
hand to mouth you had to pay in your money every
night .but it didnt matter ..you would be so
sorry for them because I cant say they were the friendliestof people but they were very fair do you know .they
didnt know how to woo the customer they just stayed on
their own and that was a draw back .do you know what I
mean..

DC:And
in a small town you have to bring people with you and get them on
side.

MC:I
dont believe that the mother was ever talking to anyone
...she would just look at you and that was it and the
father they were all descent people but they
didnt know how to mix .do you know I would consider
myself a good mixer with people.

DC:Im
sure you are.

MC:Well
thats what life is all about .I could put a chat on
with anybody or whatever thats it.

DC:Thats
great Micheál we done well there and we covered at lot of
ground.

MC:Well if it
helps the community and helps the town of Kells to preserve some
of the things I am after telling you I wou