Wait, it doesn't? I could've sworn the first time we hear about Haffaton is when they provide High Elves to help the alliance against Stanley. Now I have to go look up what I'm misremembering...

You're probably thinking of Hobbittm...

That is indeed what I was misremembering. Good catch.And I'm just going to jump in with everyone else saying that this situation is currently just way to vague to predict. All we know is that Faq doesn't go away in the end, but we know nothing about Banhammer. Specifically his competence. Is he a peaceful version of Stanley or a peaceful version of Charlie? Tis a mystery.

_________________"The rumors which surround me are myriad, you know. Myth and legend, wild speculation, paranoid suspicions..."- Charlie, in reference to the forum members

I wonder if it's in the realm of Foolamancy to fake turning. It would involve somehow letting the other Side see you and count you as their unit, stats and everything included, and not just a cosmetic change in livery... I'm not sure it can be pulled off - or at least, the Side's leader is sure not to fall for it. But now that I'm writing this, I realize that Haffaton's case is particular in that a caster runs the show and keeps the ruler as a puppet. Therefore, the one you really want to fool here, Olive, might actually fall for it since she lacks Ruler senses. Hrm...

That sounds more like the sort of thing a Trimancy link up with a Turnamancer and a Foolamancer would be able to do.

Seems unlikely to me that a turning leader becomes an heir by default... are you suggesting that it this would supplant existing heirs? If not, then how would Banhammer avoid being desploofed by Olive after she becomes overlord? Keep in mind that he would have to have a way to bump her off that he couldn't just use right now before Judy is dead for his plan to make sense.

This would also mean that you can turn as a hostile action right before killing an overlord... then subsume their entire side. Needs permission by current overlord? Not that we saw... Judy is nowhere about.

Finally, narrative convention suggests that this situation should not be resolved by rules that have yet to be revealed (admittedly, that line of argument led us to the conclusion that the dwagons would have to be disbanded until the update before they were harvested).

Seems unlikely to me that a turning leader becomes an heir by default... are you suggesting that it this would supplant existing heirs? If not, then how would Banhammer avoid being desploofed by Olive after she becomes overlord? Keep in mind that he would have to have a way to bump her off that he couldn't just use right now before Judy is dead for his plan to make sense.

This would also mean that you can turn as a hostile action right before killing an overlord... then subsume their entire side. Needs permission by current overlord? Not that we saw... Judy is nowhere about.

Finally, narrative convention suggests that this situation should not be resolved by rules that have yet to be revealed (admittedly, that line of argument led us to the conclusion that the dwagons would have to be disbanded until the update before they were harvested).

Not just a leader, but Ruler. Royalty no less. Supplanting a non-royal also in line as heir. It'd be just one more benefit to being a Royal rather than just another heir-designate. Also, it may not be an instantaneous thing and end in conflict, so no bumping of anyone off.

Right now, Judy is pretty much useless, made so by Olive and the buds. If Banhammer does indeed become the next designated Heir, that frees up Olive and fates Jillian to croak either her own father or Judy. Work with Fate to avoid croaking. Thinking Jillian will not croak her own father, that leaves just Judy to be croaked by Jillian to fulfill the prophecy. Banhammer becomes king again, and Olive has another pawn to play with, but this one is much more pliable to her experienced hands. A little manipulation, and Olive is right back to being heir designate for the most powerful side in Erfworld, plus she may be able to get some stat buffs by becoming a Royal.

And if his status of Ruler does not even play into heir status, he still has to have one helluva bonus, and would make an excellent CWL.

This could also be another case of an old man who got his engine revved up by a hot woman way too young for him. She makes him feel younger and virile once more, so he overlooks a lot of warning signs. And she gets called a gold-digger by the new daughter in law, who may actually be older.

This would be an excellent way of luring Olive into a trap. Once she thinks she has won, she will reveal her true colors, and possibly let down her guard.

Good point. Perhaps the point of the subterfuge (if any is even happening) is to trick Olive into thinking it's safe to do something that will justify Banhammer taking the deplorable low road... as opposed to enabling him to do so as I was assuming.

Yes, yes! Exactly. He can't bring himself to attack without justification. Because, as he said before, that would just be rude.

So he's giving her a proper opportunity to demonstrate whether she should or shouldn't deserve being attacked.

Hmm, many moons ago I conceded the point that "silent orders" as described here (specifically sent from beyond earshot and eyesight) were not supported by the comic despite my vaguely remembering them having occurred... I later became convinced that I was miss-remembering orders by natural allies, which are sent by natural thinkamancy. Weird to see them show up now.

More pertinently, why make a stink about them being used now? Why didn't Banhammer just send a note, as is his wont? He seems the type to get super-excited about designing the wedding invitation with the perfect signamancy. My guess is that it is being established that Banhammer could be directing much more than what Jillian is seeing... Telepathically ordering his casters to put on a show for Olive. I just hope there is a good reason why. I'm trying to figure out what he is trying to do that couldn't be accomplished better, faster, and safer by a more direct approach.

So, I guess an unspoken assasination order would be concidered, "Silent but Deadly"?

Unless it's Banhammer's gambit. Jack did seem pretty distracted throughout that whole chapter. Perhaps he was being relayed more orders than the others? Regarding a bit of wardrobe change, maybe? After all, in order to properly fool Olive, Banhammer needs to silently repeat her orders. If on the other hand Jack is going to fake it independently, his ruse will fall through the minute he's given an order by Olive that Banhammer himself isn't giving, since he won't be able to follow it. Although I have no clue why Banhammer would keep Jillian out of the loop unless having her go independent is part of the plan (someone mentioned that turn order would change?). This all seems pretty shaky, but so does the alternative.

All I know is, if someone in this room doesn't say "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" at some point, I'm going to be gravely disappointed ;P

_________________"The rumors which surround me are myriad, you know. Myth and legend, wild speculation, paranoid suspicions..."- Charlie, in reference to the forum members

Although I have no clue why Banhammer would keep Jillian out of the loop unless having her go independent is part of the plan (someone mentioned that turn order would change?).

Jillian has NO acting skills whatsoever, nor any tolerance of subtility. And her sincere outrage will only draw attention away from the others.

_________________Unbreakable. Does not receive leadership penalties, Loyalty, or morale hits due to delays, imperfections, vacations, breaks, filler days, or retcons. All such debuffs, if somehow applied, are reduced to 0. - ShaneTheBrain

I think that Banhammer has a trick, such as fake turning, up his sleeve. Otherwise, it seems odd that the leader of a side who spent all of his time and energy on court intrigue would be duped so easily. Keeping Jillian out of the loop makes perfect sense as others have said for the reasons previously stated.

I really don't think that Banhammer HAS a backup plan. I don't think he feels it necisary. Olive is offering him everything he wants. An opportunity to pass on the pacifist philosophies of Faq, and to a major Side at that. It's theoretically pheasable that if Olive really meant it, she could halt Haffoton's perpetual creep and spend quite a few turns focusing on infrastructure and "promoting" Banhammer's ideals and get the side back into a functional financial state. But I don't believe that Olive actually has that in mind, I think that is manipulating Banhammer, and he swallowing it all.

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