Endgame: A Future Scenario for Israel

A future scenario for The Place of Judgment, the Middle East. Are we on course to a doom scenario? What are the scenarios for the Near East in the foreseeable future? Tension in the Middle East is mounting again, as political decisions in both the United States and Iran are now being taken by neoconservatives.

Both places have idiots in charge, states colonel Lawrence Wilkerson. And the weapon of mass destruction scenario has been dug up again, this time for Iran. Plans of attack are being made and pre-emptive strikes are being considered. Backlight presents an ominous future view on the Middle East, the Place of Judgment. For Endgame, director Marije Meerman has gathered opinions and attitudes from the US, Israel and Iran concerning Israel's near future.

Could the possible US withdrawal from Iraq herald the destruction of Israel? And will the pro-Israel stances of the presidential candidates affect their chances? How will any rethinking of American foreign policy impact on the region?

This episode also features Ahmadinejad, pastor John Hagee and Barack Obama in an attempt to illustrate the frontlines of a possible Third World War. Could the increasing tension regarding the escalation of the conflict lead to a self-fulfilling prophesy?

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The Poor Jews Kicked out of 109 countries since 250 AD. I think they are getting the message and/or fine tuning their survival skills. Now even good Italians don't get kicked out of 109 countries.

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through...all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

I Deal In Facts ~~~~~ Former Senator William Fulbright, in the 1970s, and former senior CIA official Victor Marchetti, in the 1980s, contended that AIPAC should have registered under the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) requires those who receive funds or act on behalf of a foreign government to register as a foreign agent. However, AIPAC states that the organization is a registered American lobbying group, funded by private donations, and maintains it receives "no financial assistance" from Israel or any other foreign group.

In 2006, Representative Betty McCollum (DFL) of Minnesota demanded an apology from AIPAC, claiming an AIPAC representative had described her vote against the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act of 2006 as "support for terrorists." McCollum stated that AIPAC representatives would not be allowed in her office until she received a written apology for the comment. AIPAC disputed McCollum's claim, and McCollum has since declared the incident over.
Steiner resignation

In 1992, AIPAC president David Steiner was forced to resign after he was recorded boasting about his political influence in obtaining aid for Israel. Steiner also claimed that he had met with (then Bush U.S. Secretary of State) Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear ... Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.

Steiner also claimed to be "negotiating" with the incoming Clinton administration over who Clinton would appoint as Secretary of State and Secretary of the National Security Agency. Steiner stated that AIPAC had "a dozen people in [the Clinton] campaign, in the headquarters... in Little Rock, and they're all going to get big jobs."

NY real estate developer Haim Katz told The Washington Times that he taped the conversation because "as someone Jewish, I am concerned when a small group has a disproportionate power. I think that hurts everyone, including Jews. If David Steiner wants to talk about the incredible, disproportionate clout AIPAC has, the public should know about it."

It is hard to find optimism in the current situation. Allowing nuclear ambiguity for Israel, leading to a buildup of a massive arsenal of weapons was probably the stupidest and preventable acts of foreign policy in all of history. Because of it we're all shaking in our boots. Thanks Washington D.C. Truly "the capitals are ruled by idiots." One bright spot is the documentary rather ignored or downplayed the fact that the U.S. is not only Israel's ally, but a key player in the whole area with strong ties to many diverse other Middle Eastern states as well. That, plus geopolitical habit makes the whole scenario of China and Russia suddenly allying with a new Middle East order sans American resistance highly doubtful. Politics is reckless, but these are not casino players.
On the other hand in the event of even a possible attack I sincerely doubt that Israel will just roll over and play dead. If Israel sees its existence threatened it will not give up without a fight, and that could very well mean resorting to nuclear weapons. It doesn't take a great stretch of the imagination of that escalating into global thermo nuclear warfare once leaders start losing their heads and hitting the panic buttons. This is the horrifying reality we face and why disarmament is so vital to the continued existence of our amazing human species (I for one love the human race) and precious life as we know it. But we just ignore this and talk of strategy, scenarios, diplomacy, and pre-emptive strikes; if we continue brinksmanship, humpty dumpty will fall.
We may have another world war left in us, but I cannot by any measure foresee that we'll have another post-war era. Given that the U.S. could have afforded Israel detente through other means (U.S. nuclear power is implicit is it not?), what has been tolerated is simply insane. I can make absolutely no sense of American policy toward Israel from LBJ on.
If the Jewish lobby has so much power and indeed does have a say in U.S. policy, why doesn't it rely on America's nuclear deterrence rather than escalating the already high very high stakes by developing its own weapons (with U.S. technology I might add) on a tiny strip of land? Why did Kennedy demand inspections and Johnson say 'hands off' in an era of determined containment and non-proliferation? Obviously, proliferation among Middle East states is only a matter of time.
To an Israeli the specter of a modern holocaust is immediate and demands compassion. However that possibility holds true for the rest of us too: all it will take is one nuclear strike followed by a series of political blunders to drag us all down.

Israel was important when power and money were the name of the game, the game has changed since peak oil, it is now about fast diminishing 'natural resources' and Israel has diddly squat whille the Arab nations are abundant. The cynical US knows this and you will start to see tentative moves of co-operation between the US and arab states because they know the American people will not be duped into another fake war on behalf of Israel. Israel has a monstrous propaganda machine but the bottom line is it is a dog eat dog world and propaganda, spin and money will not be enough when it comes to the US society breaking down because of oil shortages. Israel is in no mans land because the rest of the world sussed out your nasty little regime a long time ago, we in Europe support the Palestinians because they have been brutalised in silence for too long.

Fair enough aside from the name calling (there are lots of 'nasty little regimes' around), but when all is said and done, Israel is still in possession of nuclear weapons. That should scare the h*** out of anyone.

Zack Ostrow
- 09/15/2013 at 06:14

Some of the comments I'm seeing here are astounding... We support Israel because they are a nation of good peaceful people. The Israeli people just want a home where they can live and worship where they want in peace.

You can travel the extent of Israel from north to south in 5 hours and it's only 9 miles wide at certain areas. It's a small strip of land. They're not asking for much.

They had a lot more land when they were attacked by several enemies and took it from them... but they gave it back... for peace. They gave back control of the Suez willingly for peace. That is what the Israeli people want, and that is what they will do for peace, and that is why we support them. Think of them like a brother state. With regards to freedom and democratic values, we're cut from the same cloth .

They have people who hate them and attack them. They are forced to defend themselves. If Israel's enemies would put down their weapons there would be peace. If Israel put theirs down they'd all be killed.

As more rational thinking occurs, hopefully in the next generation, there will be less strife between Israelis and Palestinians. They will not hate each other blindly. Rather they will see each other as good neighbors and distant relations.

We must have peace in the Middle East. The land is far too beautiful for war; it is an abomination. For it truly is a land touched by God.

I have never been to Israel or any Arab countries but I have made friends with Israeli Jews and Arabs, Iranians and Iraqis, and American Jews as well. I've made friends with people from many faiths and although I am agnostic, they did not try to convert me (well, the exception were the Jehovah Witnesses- but they were friendly too). I value all these friendships for the people they are and not from where they come from or their faith. That has absolutely nothing to do with people relaxing together.
I understand that there is discrimination against Arab Israeli citizens- I don't pretend to know much about it- and I understand that there was Jim Crow discrimination in the American South until fifty years ago. That country still struggles with discrimination, as do many others.
I'm sure Israel is a lovely place, but to be honest the thought of visiting at this time is a little scary for me. I sincerely hope the peace process moves forward. And I do hope people put down their weapons, including the Israelis. The vast majority of us want peace for all parties concerned.

Valerie Jeanne Pippi
- 09/23/2012 at 01:59

The Christian Lebanese woman seems not to see her own reflection. So, Israel does NOT share that "Messianic" vision (shared by radical Christians) just as much if not more - for an "Armageddon"? It is simply INSANITY on all the sides to risk the world because of ancient zealotry.

Actually, the "Messianic" belief half-shared within the Judaeo-Christian religions is a belief in an event in time that will take place in the future. Iranian Shia Muslims and a lot of other Muslim right wing sects believe that it is in there hands to bring about the events that will "naturally" unveil the "hidden imam/Mahdi". So in short, NO, Jews and Christians DO NOT believe in the same "Messianic vision".

bluetortilla
- 04/04/2014 at 20:22

Prophecy tends to be self-fulfilling in one form or another. It's a sort of 'make it so' thing.

Bruce Wilson
- 08/22/2012 at 07:16

Insert 'manipulations' for 'connections' @ 36:43.

Also, the 'writer' in the red shirt is a serious tool. As in the spokesperson for the subtleties of manipulation and the professed image of 'victim' used by Israel to justify it's hard-core militant Fascism.

'Speak your own mind (with freedom)'? So, when An Israeli speaks out against it's government's policies of aggression and genocide, he or she isn't labelled as a Nazi?

Interesting interviews but the basic premise is flawed and manipulative.
Ahmadinejad is not the leader of Iran. Period. He is a puppet that got ahead of himself and is currently sidelined and made irrelevant.

The greater debate is larger than that but that's the point that this documentary misses horrifically. The big bogey man may well have been speaking for popular political gain when he said his comments but regardless, he is gone from Iranian power games.

Any debate or documentary that uses his name is outdated, obviously. Even if this film wasn't outdated, you still have to wonder why there is no mention of possible political motives for his statements...much the same way American Presidents wax militant when discussing the region and bow down to Israel for political survival.

They do talk of alternative reasons for Iran having a nuclear weapon but they uniformly use Ahmadinejad as the reason to ignore the subtleties.

I don't agree. It's sure is made to look that way, but it's the other way around. Even if you point to Jewish powers in the U.S. influencing policy, their still U.S. Jewish powers. Israel is a basket case sitting on a precipice.

musbcrazy
- 03/08/2012 at 19:21

the dickead zionists whilst being the biggest trouble maker in the world has got playing the victim down to a T. And the Americans are wrapped around their little finger!

lmao...if you ask a presidential candidate why they support Israel they'll real off a long list, morally, politically and strategically...yeah yeah, that's when they spinning Washington politics...the real reason as you so nicely explained first is because they couldn't get elected if they didn't.

explains why Ron Paul is getting blocked...and to prove my earlier statement that America is in Israels pocket...Americans side with Israel over a real american looking out for their interests genuinely.....how sad!

wow to hear someone from the Zionist clan calling someone else masionic is just hilarious...stupid bitch and that whole 'wipe Israel off the face of the map' has now been proven to be bullshit! he said the Zionist philosophy or something should be removed from the pages of history. these liars have got to be stopped!

You better believe your not popular in Europe...we've all learned who you really are and what your really about!

Israel will not stop until she gets what she desires. The United States and all of it's zionist agents in the gov/finance positions/Judeo-Christian churches/schools will always see to that. Americans are mentally incapable of realizing they live in flat-out communism. Have fun at the football game fool!

AIPAC lobbyists give American congressman and senators 47 million each year. In return Israel receives 3 billion a year in aid or more starkly 9 million per day. A nice pay-off and if things get rough you can just head to your closest embassy.

Israel has not been given by God to the Jews. Simple reason which can be found with Orthodox Jews and Christians. Its written that if the Jews do take the 'holy land' then they will cause injustice on this Earth. This is very evident today. And the Christian fundamental's actions of support is merely a view that they try to speed this injustice which will end up in Jesus rising to kill EVEN the Jews.

The fact is, the land was given to the descendants of Abraham not Moses. There was no Jews before Moses. Israelite were the people that followed Moses from many tribes. Abraham had two sons from two different wives. Sara's son is the father of the Jews but the racism of the Jews has disqualified the second wife any weight as she was merely a servant. Therefore, the son of the second wife is said to be the forefather of the Prophet Mohammed in Islam and the father of the Arabs. This is why Palestinians are Arabs. Arabs are wrongfully said to have come from Yemen, rather from whoever has Abraham's gene.

The truth is Jews had two kingdoms in the past. The forefathers of the Jews changed into Christianity, paganism etc. They intertwined genetically with the locals and they were in decline after the death of Jesus. When the Islamic Caliphate conquered Palestine, the people there were Christian. This explains the 6 crusades. Most of the population became Muslim which is evident in the amount of Churches turned into Mosques after being bought from the Church.

What we can conclude here is that if someone would take the GOD right, then the Zionist have no base. Even Orthodox Jews think so.

If we were to talk about shear historical demography, then the Zionist do not stand a chance.

If we were to support Israel on the reason that they are Jews then why would they kick out every Palestinian? Is God racist?

And if Jews were the chosen ones, then why do they not kill themselves and end up in the heavens?

A few days back, I seen a doc in which other papyrus about 3,000 years old. Quite damaged but still viable.

The "Documents" didn't talk about religion or thing like that but simply related to every day preoccupations.

And it mentioned that they used sort of an psychotropic mushroom that still grows over there. That was a little while before most if not all religions were instituted among human beings...

It wasn't mescaline as in Mexico but it sure did, rather have a heck of a good potential to induce what is known as an "Astral Trip".
They didn't know exactly what was going on once someone eat the psychedelic goodies.
I guess that the word "Drug" didn't exist in those days?
It then became part of their way of life.
Which, or course include "C_and_N" exept that C_and_N appears to use better, much better stuff as LSD-25 to be in direct contact with his God.

What was "His God" busy with while his nation was going through the holocaust in the 40's? Dragging them through the desert one more time, just to see which has enough of faith? Absent father...

Just by looking at mother nature which everyone having a little drop of intellectal faculty, believe was created by "Their God", the only C_and_N God, just cannot be a revengefull maniac or abuser toward justice as it is the case for types of obsessed individuals such as C_and_N. A psychopathic gourou who just couln't care less viewing abuses, murders, war mongering in the name of his God.
Simply stating: (SIC) -"I'm sorry about the USA teen girl shot" while ignoring the murders of other foreign civils who were in Gaza as well.

Don't ever expect that these C_and_N over there will ever view these documentaries because he sure learned endoctrinment during the holocaust how to abuse other individuals.
That type of individuals can alas be found everywhere on planet earth.
They ar enot Germans, not Israelites, not black or asians, just standard ordinary beasts.

Considering their behaviour, how would "Their God" not change his mind seeing their behaviour in now days? Based on what I read in "Their Book", that God of their is a little more severe than they'll ever claim. If & only if that God ever been or ever will be.
The UN voted against these ordeals in Gaza times after times and it kept on going. Time will sure come to solve that for good.
I would not object to nuke the place.
I'd says: "I'm sorry about .. But! ...

HUMMDRUMM
- 06/08/2011 at 23:37

The day will come when just like all big empires in human history the US will be only a bad memory unfortunately reduced to ashes by one or two or may be three of its enemies,at least the old empires had history.For two hundred years America has done nothing to be remembered by that has impacted the world in a positive way,all they have left is bad taste in the worlds mouth. History repeats its self and for a reason ,nothing lasts forever just legends and America you are not going on the list !

When using exageration (AKA Extremism), it kills the punch.
I mean, didn't been 200 years but rather since a few years after WWII.
Somewhere after Eisenhower. The last one who care a little about the faith of humankind.

He knew, realised at one time that he was surrounded by obsessed peoples. Spoke it out and quite friendily.
Since then, keep it confidential!
Except those damned Wiki Leaks in a once in a while.
But there was other leaks before.
Business as usual.

WTC7
- 08/16/2011 at 01:37

@ Pierre,

Just a question regarding your post below:

"I believe that there's a "GOD" but not not even close to the kind of god the here present blood thursty psychotics maniacs describe! John Lee, WTC7 & C_and_N refer to."

Sorry, which god exactly have I referred to? And why would you put me side by side with the other two, who are obviously religious believers?

Guest
- 08/16/2011 at 03:17

"As far as the land dispute, the land belongs to Israel--it has for several thousands of years (given by God Himself) and will be theirs eternally from this time forward."

Just to mention that "Motto" without any further comment speaks a lot on it'self. No shame 'bout expressing this!

Coze, we sure know "Who's" pseudo god that is.
And knowing what humankind know in now days, this is a sickness! A pretext to take over what others 'been working for and earned. No god in there, only warfare.

If any god exist, I don't need any archaic document to know that. And if indeed, that god is that much of a beast...

Pierre.

avd420
- 06/20/2011 at 10:59

Hmmm,I wonder what the world would look like if Russia won the cold war rather than America. Yeah, that's what the USA did for the world plus a lot more. I used to be a hater too, then I learned about Americas history and it's impact on the world. It's not all pretty, but it's got a great soul!

Guest
- 06/20/2011 at 12:54

Well look around. The same people finance both sides of every war.Capitalism means no central bank. And thats why we have given multi billions to bail out the same few loosers to make we the people loosers.

psychorealm11
- 08/24/2011 at 16:51

I am not the biggest expert from the cold war era but more people are starting to believe Russia was its own worst enemy. This means it destroyed itself from within. The economy was to corrupt to continue. Even if the US did nothing it would of collapse of its own accord. Now this is just my thought but Russia crumbled quicker the more reach they had. The amount of trade with block countries at low prices was a huge downfall for them. A lot of the rhetoric that Russia was a super power on par with the US is starting to fade as documents are being studied of the state of Russian finances and military strength. The US has done a lot worst in the name of democracy like the European nations did in the name of god during the colonizing era. If you take all the bad the US has done after WW2 it does not stack up to the good. The US's biggest exports are war, poverty and death in the form of economic change/modernizing economies. I think an interesting question is if the US does fall from the strongest nation will it be by stepping aside or through a war? Should be interesting to see. I hope it is not in my lifetime. Just a thought.

CeilingCat
- 01/08/2012 at 01:37

I concur with your quiet sentiment.

Rocky Racoon
- 03/29/2013 at 18:10

The Russians Stopped Hitler at a cost of 22 million people while the USA was at home making money selling the British Guns-they didn't know who to back just figured whoever was winning. But JP Morgan had to much to lose if Britain lost so America got into the war provoked Japan to attack they dropped the bomb to try to roll back the Russian Victories. Roosevelt thought the USSR should become 50% like the USA and that the USA should be 50% like the Soviet Union when he died the chance for post war peace died with it so as far as your cold war bullshit goes America did nothing for the war and it was their belligerence that was the transmission belt for totalitarianism and militarism in Russia-You have to take the threat of a nuclear attack serious especially when it was used specifically to send this message the war was already won and Japan was ready to surrender before that. So it was unnecessary to kill all those civilians to "win the war"

RABN Horse
- 06/07/2011 at 18:46

C_and_H, I am changing my name from Gerald Zionist to Jesus Christ If you don't vote for me in 2012, you know where you're going...and it's gonna be hot....

Shall never be pushed to the sea?
Tell me C&N, does it happen very often that you feel as if someone, anyone wants to attack you?
Make yourself comfortable to think that over.
Lay back on the couch, stretch yourself, go back in time when you were a clild. Did your moma treat you bad? Your popa hit you a few times? Did your sister abused you, playing the nurse?

Were you refused a nice bicycle you always dreamed of?
See, we have a nice white coat for you...
Forget about the byke and all these bad memories.
Put the nice white coat on.
We'll tie the extra-long sleves in your back.
Then, we'll send you on a nice vacaction in a nice white room that has mattress on the walls and ceilings.

Meanwhile, swallow those little pills, you will feel secure at last.
Nice organce palm trees floating on a nice cloud!
Don't think everyone hate you, cumon!
Even though you'd murder homosapiens, destroy their century old houses to lock them up in a an outdoor concentration camp made of tents, we sure know that you don't do that intentionnaly and deliberatly! Anyone would simply love you after witnessing these facts. Worldwide.

Take your pills, it just can't be cured.

His Forever
- 06/09/2011 at 05:29

Pierre: You're a little scary, actually. But, yes, I have had people hurt me quite a bit in the past. Luckily for all I'm not a revengeful sociopath.

As far as the land dispute, the land belongs to Israel--it has for several thousands of years (given by God Himself) and will be theirs eternally from this time forward. They've shown more restraint in housing developements, etc. than I think they should have. Those refugees could go to any number of Arab countries (if they wanted to and if they were really wanted) but they choose to be a thorn in the side of Irael for a political purpose and a front for the efforts against Irael.

Peace to you.

Guest
- 06/10/2011 at 01:57

Given by God Himself ?
Understandingly, "Your God" as defined by "Your Religion"!
Which we all know for a fact to be a pure expression of racism.
No homosapien, none can enter that religion unless his or she is a son or a daughter of David or any other of these racists.

My reply is: -Who lives by the sword will perish by the sword.
FYI: This is no religion but a fact of life.

It becomes obvious to me that you are totally unfit to understand why I could have been so appalled by all (I really mean "All") WWII documentaries.
The vicious beasts that is too often hiding into too many homosapien individuals. I just ought to conclude that you are pretty, pretty much young.
That generation that never lived, felt the ordeals of WWII.
Hitler never really really was a racist.
He only was a selfish inward lazy bully who didn't like to earn his living.
So! He simply found/invented a pretext to steal other hard earned wealth!
This is simply the standard behavior of the homosapien specie.
If "Your God" would have been so much better than any other ones, this would have been the first thing he would have taught you.
You’re convinced that the Jewish nation was the only one to live through these ordeals? Are you totally uneducated?
How about the Normans in UK 1,500 years BC?
And if China is considered, as well as the civilization in southern Iran some 4,000 BC left aside the Pharaohs in Egypt...

I saw a Jewish documentary (Produced by...) about a Jewish teen sort of "Pilgrimage" to a few German concentration camps.
Sort of museums, they became.
The doc is on the web, I don't have it on my HD...
We see and hear one of the adult teacher telling hatred comments to his student with the obvious intention to induce hate of other religions & race. One of the Jewish student complained on the camera that this kind of behavior is against his family standards. Maybe this is the only behavior to expect from a newborn teen country or “Reborn” one?

In many geographical regions invaded and readily stolen by the Israeli state, there were native Arabs who lived there for millenniums.
What we once reproached to the NAZI extremists, a good part of the Israeli Elite bare the exact same filth.

On top of all this, I have a documentary (On my HD) in which a USA citizen teen girl born & raised in the USA Midwest had a pen pal teen girl friend in Gaza.
She obtained sort of grant to go & meet her pen pal Gaza teen girl friend. Something like a month during summer...

Ok! One day, the Israeli army shows up at the door of the some 200 years old family house. It is a little village inhabited by Arabs for thousands of years, same thing.
The army officer shows up an expulsion order while the Israeli army bulldozers are waiting to demolish that family house.
Exactly the same style as every human beings on planet earth seen in Germany during the (35-45)' era.
The word "NAZI" is nothing else but a definition to express one of the various behaviors of some sub-human individuals, exactly as you personally are
-Let's call "THINGS" by their name!

The USA teen girl got shot by the Israeli maniacs. Died a little later.
I have no doubt what so ever that you could perfectly fit the task.
And then, I saw another doc in which UK/USA and other Europeans citizens (Mostly adults this time) went into the Gaza strip to protest while the Israeli army done the same as described for the USA citizen teen girl.
DO NOT TELL ME THAT ANY GOD, INCLUDING YOURS, ENJOYS OR PROMOTE IN ANY MANNER THAT SORT OF MASSACRES?
The very fact that you & “YOUR GOD” consider us as non-fit for an after life, simply suggest that nuke is justified? We sure know that you have it…
How many millions are you over there?
Personally, I rather choose to be in China instead of your dark & safe bunker.

Now... The bottom line...
Obviously, you would never ever view the documentaries I mentioned because you obviously are an obsessed extremist.
All the documentaries I just described were shot live on the spot the very same way as many were during WWII.

And I forgot to mention the documentary where senior Jewish (Elderly for many) made a protestation march in Jerusalem against the expulsions of Arabs by the extremist right-wing Israeli Elite. Some protesters where obviously “Hashemite”.
It was stunned to see the "REAL" ones protesting against their own Elite. These, they saw and lived through the WWII ordeal.
They sure know and don't want that.

What if Ireland would launch a worldwide project to bring back all Irish decent individuals in the Irish soil?
Offer a some $50,000 grant and if the Irish geographical territory isn't quite enough, seize the surrounding foreign territory since no official treaty was ever signed or still deserve to be respected in history?
Do you have any idea how many Irish there can be worldwide?
I'd say about the same as Jewish decent individuals in Russia.

Except that the "Way of life" for these Irish "Ex-PAT" is extremely different from the one who's been living in Russia for centuries.

And in Russia, the "Way of life" is...
Being peoples running over others with bulldozers…

His Forever
- 06/16/2011 at 13:47

Wow! It's been a long time since I've inspired 3 1/2 hours worth of response (estimated). I'm sorry about the USA teen girl shot is Gaza. I wish all of Gaza was 100% controled by Irael entirely and solely, if it could be done without loss of life. My opinion remains 100% behind Isreal for ever.

Peace to you.

Guest
- 06/10/2011 at 03:03

Revengeful Sociopath?
The root of the sociophaty is the: -"That land belongs to Israel, given by God Himself".
You live in outdated concepts just like the Muslim fanatics.

The "Assyrians" once claimed the exact same.
After the Assyrians claimed that "Their God" (s, here though), came the Egyptians. The rest to modern age, I guess you know?

Then, the others "Gods" came around including the Brits who are absolutely convinced that their reigning Kings (Or Queen for that matter) are "God's envoys! Chosen by God to run the Empire!
Blood & genetic matter at 1st sight but sex thrills in reality while submitting other indivduals to get their belongings/houses.
Except that the Britt's population got fedup as time passed by...
Which triggered sort of a revolution over there at one time.
Then the Britts then went toward an elected government but gave a break to the Monarchy.

As we all know by now, some Jewish extremism factions instituted terrorism a little before WWII until the Britts decided to go home.

In your crooked religious concepts, you are sunk to a point where you act as if "Your God" who just ought to be present everywhere on this planet of ours even though only Israel is of interest for later days.
Just as if it would be splitted apart from planet earth.

Obviously, I am not the one who's dangerous but individuals as you are sure are the most dangerous beasts in this world.

If I don't and would never believe in the good will of your religion, it is because it claims that ordeals that you guys are committing over there are justified and/or requested by your "So-Called God".
Any God including your's has a lot more important things to care of. Like your sanity for instance!
As days, centuries and milleniums passed by, I wouldn't elect my home in your land of blood and abuses if I'd be any God inckuding your's!

If God, "Your God" is as you describe, you sure will have a little "Sociopathic" problem with something close to 3 billions individuals on planet earth!

And then. If you & your God destroy us, what slaves will you turn to?
You will import from planet Kinglon maybe?
Helped by Mr. Spock?

His Forever
- 06/16/2011 at 13:55

There is one true God, and the land is His to give to Whomever He chooses. Sorry, it's Israel's alone. It was the land of pagan peoples before that, but who are we to argue with God's decision to evict them for their sins? He is just in all His ways. I wish I were living in Jerusalem even now.

Peace to you as well.

WTC7
- 06/10/2011 at 22:42

"As far as the land dispute, the land belongs to Israel--it has for several thousands of years (given by God Himself) and will be theirs eternally from this time forward."

Will you just cut the cr*p, Charles, please. Does that mean that the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh can claim the whole of Western Europe (and more) or that the Native Americans should perhaps get all of North and South America back?

jj
- 11/17/2011 at 19:18

you are lying god giveth and god taketh away....democracy has been hijack with the zionist,everyone is becomming aware the the politions that are mostly chosen are in there interestest and blacklist who doesnt,from side showsas well as controlled media ....but truth burst through sooner or later,as far as those phony evanglist,will be like those when jesus returns,and those lay claims to him,not the ones who wont,he will tell them,I never knew you,because of there against whats wrong and wasnt on the side of promting what was right,gods people are ther belivers ,do not kill,do not,steal,ect ect,belivers are gods people who follow his guidness and way not hypocracy,whos the last p[rophet that gave you instructions,and ignore all the othere prophesies of being scattered...i believe the quran version ,which says some of them are believers but most are evil livers ,pretty much like at the time of christ,is this why isreal has created promotes hatred on both sides the old divide and conquere game,the zionist dint like when hiltler demonising the jews, those he was jew himself,yet thats what there trying to do to tha palestianians and othere arabs,I believe marxist and lennon were jews too,I take comfort that truth is truth,ands gods the best judge and on the side of truth,the zionist jews also to care to learn what the muslems did for the jews in history and save them from extinctions,how is it they were able to live in so many arab and african countries,by the grace god gave them in there religion

john lee
- 06/27/2011 at 03:15

God willing it will happen soon, so you better not be there in next a few years darling :) God bless

SaintNarcissus
- 08/15/2011 at 15:04

My opinion is (and I have messianic Jewish Israeli friends who of course agree with you) that just because a cabal of Zionists a century or so ago engineered and eventually executed a plot to invade Palestine and dub it Israel, this does not make the state of Israel Biblically and certainly not in any other sense legitimate. I also have a close friend whose father is an expatriate Palestinian Christian (an Anabaptist pacifist) who has spent his life working tirelessly at the peace process from a perspective of forgiveness and a desire for reconciliation. If you, like my friend's father, were forcibly removed from the olive groves your family owned for centuries to make way for an emigrating Jewish family - would you as a Palestinian Christian, still be able to reconcile this view that the state of Israel is the "Apple of God's Eye?" If you believe it is this simple, I highly recommend reading the book "Blood Brothers" by Elias Chacour. It is a memoir. I promise it will leave you in tears with a much more complicated and challenged understanding of Israel and Palestine, Christianity, Judaism and prophecy.

Guest
- 08/16/2011 at 01:18

Nah! No trear for phycopathic blood thirstry maniacs.
I seen a doc where these extremist zionists where bringning teenages to a few german museum of concentration camps.
In which a few adult leaders were coaxing the young jewish toward hatred.
If I remember well, the doc was realised by a modarate jewish individual.
A guy who found a way not to do his army service.
2 of the youngest fellows said on the camera what he was quite disgussed by what the adult leader was trying to push into his mind.

I think that I rather have that doc on my puter...
But the whole sums up to the same propaganda that the NAZI teached the whole whole world.

I took a heack of good break from religion when I saw a very serious documentaty on the roots of religion(S).
Learned that the "Apocalypse" supposedly written by S-John was written soon after he had swollow this psychedelic mushroom usually found in many area of the middle east.

That was only one part of the archaic scriptures discussed into that doc. Psychedelic drugs where of great use in the few centuries before christ.
There was no "Science" faculties in these times...
Not much at hand to explain life and what this world is made of, as well why it exit?
And on top of all this: THERE WAS NO DRUG ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES!

I believe that there's a "GOD" but not not even close to the kind of god the here present blood thursty psychotics maniacs describe! John Lee, WTC7 & C_and_N refer to.

When their forefathers and forenothers were getting abused by the NAZI during the 40's, we couldn't count on their "God", we had to go over there and beat the sh*t of the murderer.

Being their "God", I uunderstand very well today why "He" left them to rot over there!
Knowing and seeing what they became today, I understand.
What these sub-human don't undestand is that once they'd destroy and kill anyone who'd object the very same beharior to the NAZI about palestine: -"Who'd be their slaves to provide them day to day goods"?

These guys are simply a bunch of youngsters who are unable to control their hormones. AKA "Plain Stupied Boasting".

It stink!

Rocky Racoon
- 12/11/2011 at 12:37

I think it was the Finklestein doc. Sorry bout the spelling it is an anti zionist jew who is blackballed for his opinion.
RR

Guest
- 12/11/2011 at 18:11

@Rocky Racoon,

Nah-nah... I have the 2 Finklestein (Me2 sorry for spelling) on my hard drive.
The one he produced himself (The most viewed) and the old one porduced by "I don't remember...) who...

Nah, the one with the jewish teens was somethin from a very different souce.
It may still be available on the web.
I'll search my hard drives for the movie name.

I don't even remember if it came from the usenets or the web. If its from the web, may we take good note that websites where downloading is readily available don't have much of an extensive lifespan as this present "TDF" website?
Because of obvious reasons even though the author permit unrestricted diffusion/reproduction.

I was reading my emailed comments but I already have scheduled myself 2 movies today. Beside, I moved all my docus on a removable HD a few days ago.
I mean that it could take a day or so before finding the real name of that docu.

Meanwhile, good day.

Pierre.

Guest
- 12/13/2011 at 01:56

@Rocky Racoon?

Finally got it. Name of the docu is "Defamation".
A documentary by Yoav Shamir.

From the Danish Film Institute in collaboration of the Danish Ministry of Integration supported by the Cultural Administration of the Israeli Ministry of Science, Culture & Sport, and the Israeli Council for Cinema.
But not the US's APEC lobby?

Finkelstein was interviewed in this docu.
He is kind of "Poorly" cooperative up to a point where one wonder if he was aguing with Shamir. Note they are both US-born jews?

In which docu, one can see a few jewish students visit some concentration camps in Poland among maybe some others.
Understandingly, there is an underscript of the verbal exchanges necessary since English is not the mother tongue of the students.
Worst, it appears that jews have languages that differs quite a bit from a country to another.
Thus, translated subscript was indeed mandatory for that docu!

At one time, one teen-girl tried to talk to 2 pretty much "Mature" jewish poles since the language appeared the same at first sight. The teacher took over while the 2 teen-girls concluded that one of them understood some insulting terms from the jewish pole old men and that it was on the purpose to harm them.
The camera man had to correct the confusion since the teacher simply said to refrain from talking with the "Natives".

In another instance, some teens explained the cameraman what did the teachers have explained, rather warn the youngsters about NeoNAZIs in Poland. I see this as a sort of indoctrination.
Personnally, I feel that it is for the least, disinformation.

As far I could see based on this docu, only one sole jewish teen-girl had the reflex to state that this sort of thing that happened in the concentrations camps should not ever happen again to any other human being.
For the other ones:=>
-Don't take any risk, kill before if one wants to remain secure.
-I feel like I heard that or rather rather seen it before?

There is only a preview on TDF website and it's pretty easy to figure out how come you had that reflex to conclude that it was a "Norman Finkelstein" thing.

I found out that the full movie can be downloaded from the website "Archive" (DOT) ORG in either a MPEG4 format (512Meg) or a Windows Media format but a huge 1.4 Gig size.
If you are not fluent in Yiddish, you have to trust the various persons who worked on that movie as well as the various Gov's agencies otherwise called "Ministries".

This is it & that was that.

Pierre.

avd420
- 08/16/2011 at 01:37

@Pierre

I believe the doc in which you are refering is "Defamation".

Guest
- 08/16/2011 at 03:37

avd420? Which doc? I mostly mentioned 2 on this webpage.
The one about the history of religions (All anciant scriptures) scrutinized) and the other one where a few (5-10) jewish youngsters embarked on a trip to Germany to visit the concentration camp, right?

Bwarff! I may have a look on my hard drive if you really want to know the exact name of either doc.
But I saw it and it was live as ~ 1-2 of the youngsters complained to the camera man of the producer.

May I please tell you that I have ~ 1,000 doc on my HD?
But I could have listed by date & it'll take me less than a week before finding it out.

Unless I saw it right here on this website?
I only watch doc here but lately I watched the shows of the USA "Comic" George who's dead by now.
Dead at 80-something, he's real blunt. I like him.
Liked him rather...

I'll have a look on the exact name of those 2 doc and let you know.

Pierre.

0zyxcba1
- 06/07/2011 at 01:44

'twould be much better for the world to be governed by the women in it. ~ James Joyce

The only good thing I see in this doc is the opportunity to see and identify who are the psychopatic maniacs in the USA.

However, I seen that high ranking USA army bozo before.
He was part of the USA team that prepared the USA speak at the UN, when the USA "Un-Intelligencie" disclosed the existance of the Iraqi WMD.
A servile professionnal US Army liar.
Not a drop of intellectual integrety.
Typical american who just couldn't care less as long as arms are sold and war goes on anywere on planet earth.
Vietnam, Chilie, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and the list go on & on.

The USA Gov. officials sure knew that Saddam had these weapons because it was them who once sold to Saddam. The whole world knew that except the citizens of the so-called "Land of the Frees"
American war crime hired guns.

And on top of that, they vote for this in the USA!
If only, US citizens could claim that they're under the the spell of a psychopath dictator like the ones the USA bring into power after overthrowing democratically elected governments, but no!
They voted for what they wanted, generations after generations.

The problem I noticed with this doc is that we only see mostly what USA public figures comments.
Not even once did we see any public Iraeli figure or ex-Israeli official.
More over, in most if not all cases, the Israeli parties are located (Live) in the USA. Hard to reach in "Bunkers", away from the sun.

Bottom line is that the whole thing is nothing else but a USA VS Iran challenge. As usual, the bragging US "Lone Ranger" with his white horse VS the evil black beared Iran. Just like Vietman was.

I remember quite a bit of the same scenario when Ho Chi Mihn was enough of a fool to meet in Paris trying to get his fellow citizens freed from the french abusers. Have any idea what party did the USA supported?
Remembering that Ho Chi Mihn had to face the reality and turn toward the only left option, if it ain't right, it just gotta be the other one.

And you know what? The USA citizens will vote in their usual extreme right-wing idols again soon, because they like that.
What else can it be after all these decades and ordeals?
It an american pie, includig indians too as some would day.

What's the most important business/financial activity in the USA?
Killing and guarding the biggest carceral institutions on planet earth.

Bwarff! In the end, I ain't much concerned, it is the common USA citizen money that goes into this and not mine.
Have you seen the USA debt lately?
Compare this debt to what it cost them to search for the hoaxed WMD in Iraq since the the beginning of that war with their only lying parner, boasting a coalition...
They vote for crimes, generations after generations.

I think you began well but you didnt watch the video though because most of your comments are irrelevant to what it was about, it wasnt taking sides it was a good video I reckon, straight to the point and told no lies. You seem to be another of the misguided future criminals against humanity who became such through hiding from the truth. Its not a good thing to have so many lost and blind who cant face reality and as a result hell will be coming to earth some day soon.

Guest
- 06/05/2011 at 15:16

Nope! I stopped viewing it at 2/3 of it.
After I stopped it and searched my hard drive to find a documentary in which that "High ranking USA army" strategy analyst did state that he felt real unconfortable when he saw Powell speech on international TV, disclosing what he already knew to be delirium tremen conconted by the USA plutocracy.

And it is his face and voice within that documentary.
At the very moment Powell spoke, he remembered thiking to himself that the fact is that this hoax is a gross imagination or expectation. Because, he was in direct contact with the USA WMD inspectors who were part of the NATO inquiry.

Speaking of ignorant common average citzens that promote war crimes, I did mentioned a few previous USA instances where the "Common Average USA Citizen" should have learned something from the Kissinger gestures for instance, a few generations ago.

I was only pointing out a question: -What historical background does the USA average youngster learn?
Does the USA Elite blacks out part of history the same as it is done in totalitarian abusive regimes through propaganda?
Is there a "Made in USA" history and a worldwide history?

How many homosapiens were tortured and murdered in Vietnam? Under the "Perron" dictator who was brought into power by the CIA gansters? That is fully & extensively documented. Some EX-CIA hit men living abroad the USA did corroborated many CIA documents related to these events.

Count all of these and put the figure aside the number of deaths in the wolrd trade towers.
Many millions aside some 3,000.

I live in a democratic commonwealth country and things like that, we do not have much tolerance toward torture and murders. Too bad you guys stumbled on Wikileak isn't it?
It takes time but we would have been made aware anyhow, late of soon.

The reason why I brought down our import from USA raw materials by 71%. Hear me good: I do not ignore.
My country is no safe heaven for war criminals.
We don't earn our living by selling greeds, hoaxes, weapons warfares to bullies all over the wold to bragg about that, just as you did. That is serious matter.

No need of a pHd in history to figure that out.
It could be Obama who's there, Pelland, Bush Sr. or Jr. who ever, you ain't out of the hole yet.
And that was the reason why I concluded that tbe bottom line problem is the USA, not Iran or Israel.

USA bullies just couldn't care less 'bout international war crime laws.
Such poor common sense do not deserve any friendship.
Next time USA Elite comes to tel lies at the United Nations, make sure that your hoaxes stands strong with your WMD.

Go to hell with your biased selfishness.

Rocky Racoon
- 03/29/2013 at 18:21

The USA is like a junkie injecting itself with poison with the lattest wall street bubble they are created called Shale Gas the industry Dick Cheney had excempt from EPA laws so they could poison the environment with impunity. So they are killing themselves for the Wall Street rip off artists and they are getting away with it-self destuct they are going to set off the San Madrais fault line right through the centre of the country earth quake time big time Jesus won't save you crying won't do you no good-just ask the folks in New Orleans when the levee broke. America founded on guns killing the domestic population and slavery now killing each other and destroying their own country Corpratocracy where corporations have more rights than people and are considered human under the "law" They will be dead anytime from now to within 20 years from now. Hopefully they won't start world war three before they do. Mark my words.
RR

James del Valle
- 06/05/2011 at 01:25

If the USA pulls out then Israel will make an effort to make good relations with the Arabs but since at this moment they regularly shoot at them with plastic bullets if they protest at the restrictions of freedom placed upon them and also since the Gaza strip has its food and water supplies restricted makes me think that it will be too little, too late. Start packing your bags there is a lot of real estate available in the Antarctic.

Yes, of course!
everybody knows that the hostilities between the Arabs and Israel is only due to U.S. involvement.

James del Valle
- 06/05/2011 at 12:10

yeah but you cant blame anyone but the Jews for their own repeated actions. I defended Israel for a little while against my instincts but I looked into things thoroughly and found the Jews were selfish and create this conflict with very aggressive actions every day of the week, they are simply cowards I hope thats what you mean.

Roy
- 06/05/2011 at 12:20

yes yes.. you cant blame the enlightened middle east. the Jews are the only one to blame for those who want to annihilate them (or throw them into the see as the Arabs like to call it).
Are you going to presents facts to support your claim (so I can refute it) or are you satisfied with meaningless statements?

KsDevil
- 06/04/2011 at 22:32

so, it's a "scare the Jews" documentary by bolstering the arab/Iranian boogieman and encouraging everyone support right wing supporters in the US and keep the US welfare checks coming.

The jews and Israel do not need this documentary to be scared of Iran. here are some of what their leaders are saying (not Ahmadinejad):

ohammad-Ali Ramin (the deputy culture minister for press in Iran) On June 9, 2006 spoke to a group of students in Rasht: "Among the Jews there have always been those who killed God’s prophets and who opposed justice and righteousness. Historically, there are many accusations against the Jews. For example, it was said that they were the source for such deadly diseases as the plague and typhus. This is because the Jews are very filthy people. For a time people also said that they poisoned water wells belonging to Christians and thus killed them"

A volume published by the Institute for Imam Khomeini quotes the Imam itself: "Israel has declared armed struggle against Islamic countries and its destruction is a must for all governments and nations of Islam."

The iranian press service has quoted Ayatollah Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani saying: "If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel, but the same thing [atomic bomb] would just produce damages in the Muslim world"

In a speech on October 4, 2007, Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Mohammad Kazem Shariatmadari stated: “‘Death to America’ and ‘Death to israel’ are not only words written on paper but rather a symbolic approach that reflects the desire of all the Muslim nations"

Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati Massah stated during the 22 of Bahman parade: "The blind enemies should see that the wish of these people is the death of America and Israel"

Major General Yahya Rahim Safavi In a speech in February 2008: "With God’s help the time has come for the Zionist regime’s death sentence" and "death of this unclean regime [Israel] will arrive soon following the revolt of Muslims"

Ayatollah Nuri Hamadani told in a meeting with the Mahdaviyat (messianic) Studies Institute in April 2005: "One should fight the Jews and vanquish them so that the conditions for the advent of the Hidden Imam will be met." and "Already from the beginning the Jews wanted to hoard the world’s goods in [their] greed and voracity. They always worked in important professions and now they have hoarded all of the wealth in one place. And all of the world, especially America and Europe, are their slaves"

General Mohammad-Ali Jafari In a February 2008 message to Hassan Nasrallah : "In the near future, we will witness the destruction of the cancerous microbe Israel by the strong and capable hands of the nation of Hizbullah"

And I can go with this on and on and on and on.
I haven't even mentioned the campaign being done by Iran to deny the holocaust. there is a whole site dedicated for the purpose of denying the holocaust by Iran.

so... Jews should not be afraid of Iran? should Israel just ignore the statements until the knife will cut it's neck (figuratively speaking)? on what basis you say it's just a boogieman? haven't we learned from past events that ignoring calls for annihilation leads to catastrophic outcomes (and not only for the Jews)?

in_SANE
- 06/04/2011 at 09:52

lol...world would have been so peaceful and wonderful it people understood religion is a waste of time...unless they invented something else to create a feeling of 'oneness'

They have. Nationalism, Stateism, Comunism, Democracy, Race, Gender, Regionalism, Etc.Etc.Etc. Any and all reasons to establish social collective mentality has and continues to be utilized to exclude those who disagree.
Up to and including Atheism in the cases of some who refuse to tolerate people of faith in a world they feel should be structured according to their philosophies.

in_SANE
- 06/04/2011 at 09:44

lol.......if only people knew there was no 'GOD'...it would all be so peaceful...unless they invent another group

The believe they go to paradise and recieve 72 virgins if they die fighting Jihad in the name of Allah so what makes you so confident they will have a reason why they wouldnt think it was a good thing to do for Islam.

because they are your military proxy state. Give them money, keep them armed & strong and they can carry out extreme aspects of the US military agenda and take the brunt of the criticism for it.

Israel is a defacto US military base right in the middle of a volatile region vital to American interests....cuz we all know there`s a whole lot of oil in the middle east.

Israel doesn`t worry too much about any criticisms directed towards it as part of the agreement is the assurance of American veto power at the UN for any non-Israel friendly motion.

America also has a political system with some very undemocratic tendencies. Special interest groups can essentially "buy" political power via donations & strategic lobbying. Not many are better at this than the Zionist lobby in the USA.

The irony is, that the maintenance of the status quo (if not the furthering of American power in the middle east) America seeks by this arrangement, is actually out in jeopardy exactly because of this arrangement. hence, look for America to recognize this and lessen its support of Israel in the coming decade.

SillyWillyOneNut
- 06/02/2011 at 21:12

Yes,.. and some men are just like baboons, such as the ones that make the policy.

Martin Van what ever is wrong on this one. Until the only Super Power left attacked Iraq for "no apparent reason" the rest of these back word sand mankies are finally starting to think about piss'n off Uncle Sam I am.

How come comments from BACKWARD thinking racists like Chris here always have spelling mistakes? Chris you need to stop being a hater and learn something. Start with learning some social skills, then move on to bigger things like spelling and what really is happening in Iraq.

Guest
- 06/02/2011 at 05:55

@everyone arguing here?

If you were chosen to represent the world in the case of Palestine/Israel, would you use diplomacy, tact, strategy, alliance?
Would you play the game? How?
Would you tell it like it is and risk to be silenced by ignorance?
How would you start your first ever speech?
Who would you like to talk to first?

read this slime of thoughts
it is a flying carpet of ink dots

we play with a pair of dice
searching for paradise

as long as you play the game
the pi of 1 and I
will be a game to solve
the pi of 1 and I
is the ratio between
be and have
do and give

@Azilda, at times I find it difficult to rid myself of the suspicion that you work here serving to ameliorate tensions while simultaneously keeping an eye out for Vlatko so as to alert whenever things approach the fringe and appropriate deletions might be called for ~ or am I being paranoid? ;-)

Guest
- 06/02/2011 at 17:07

No one needs to pretend to ameliorate tensions, many people do that straight forward. If one considers this forum as a group of people sitting together at a table while discussing different subjects, one can easily hear the shouting or shooting between the parties.
The comment above was to allow the group to take a breath and give people a chance to say something constructive instead of barking like dogs. We can do like the leaders and point fingers with arguments we heard on the news or read in history books but what will that create?
Consider that there are thousands of people coming on this site, not only to watch movies but i would guess a lot of people come to read comments.
For 1 you should be aware that what you say has an influence on those thousands, as i said earlier you are for the moment holding the flag at the front of the parade. Quit foaming at the mouth and use your arrow like a peaceful warrior. You are often the bull, a role you seem to take with pride.
Here i am often the pacifist, a role i take with heart.

Pacifist: a person whose personal belief in pacifism causes him or her to refuse being drafted into military service.
I do that in discussions too.
az

Guest
- 06/02/2011 at 18:11

And by the way that doesn't answer the questions.
If you weren't so paranoid you would see that i am trying to juice the good out of you.
az

0zyxcba1
- 06/03/2011 at 05:51

@Azilda, I like you a lot(or at least I think I do (lol) .
When I am dead serious, you do know it.

I did not express overt 'paranoia', rather quipped rhetorically, ...or am I being paranoid? ;-).

I was only tickling you(sort of :-).

StillRV
- 06/02/2011 at 08:41

@Az; If I were given the chance to speak directly to those people from Israel and Palestine who perpetuate this trouble, all I would be able to say is "Really?' Just stop already The entire world thinks you are acting like children." I am sure it would be ineffective and pointless. But honestly what would be the sense of saying any more. They quite simply are as irrational as children fighting in the back seat of their family car. "He poked me!!" "She moved over to my side!!" As my father before me did in such situations my choice is to turn up the radio and tune it all out. When we get to our destination they get no ice cream that is all.

Guest
- 06/02/2011 at 17:21

I know what you mean, i traveled in the back seat a lot. What my folks used to do in such situation was to invent a game the whole family could play. I lived my youth in a very peacefull environment. We were aloud to talk. We were aloud to tell the truth no matter what it was. When a question was asked, i would often answer "Are you sure you wanna know? and if the answer was yes, i knew i didn't need to lie, i wouldn't be punished for my truth, just talked to calmly.
Still to this day, my 75yrs old folks approach my life with curiosity, tolerance and yes a bit of fear for my well being.
At 53, I am still quite a bit of an adventurer!
az

Guest
- 06/02/2011 at 17:25

When one travels with a backpack alone for years in countries that are a bit on edge, one learns to tone down and to see reality from many different angles.
But specially one sees that peace often means to let go.
az

Petar Vitanovich
- 06/02/2011 at 08:46

I would have "no comment" on the situation and if any one side decides to use force, then I would flex my muscle. This would be after both parties would have monitored talks between themselves regarding land distribution... Kind of what was supposed to happen between Serbia, and the Albania population of Kosovo i Metohija. Looking back at that situation would be a great example for any leader of a superpower. Instead of playing God, both parties should have had EQUAL opportunity to decide what will happen in their future. Especially Serbia, considering it is part of their territorial integrity. In the Palestine/Israel case its tricky since, Israel didn't exist before 1948 when the world decided to create a country out of thin air. Even though I support Israel, people have to look at the Palestinian side more often, these people had no involvement in WW2 and the killing of 6 million Jews, but for some reason, America and England felt they should be the ones to suffer and just ,"give away" their land. By no means is this a just reason. This New World Order politics just sickens me. Instead of all of us fighting each other, especially Christians, Muslims, and Jews, we should stand together and fight the tyranny of the US and the West. You people seem not to realize that they are controlling our lives through all aspects, the media, politics, EVERYTHING! these so called "leaders" deserve to be hung, all while they get to point people out and send them to the Hague even though they themselves are exempt!?!?! Just look at Bin Laden and "terrorism", they are selling you this bullshit so they can intrude in your private life and set up a police state. Before 1999 all these guys where "Freedom Fighters" now there "Terrorists" why don't you guys see the bullshit in that and stand up. Obama promises change, and even held a town hall meeting where he states "the government has no right to intrude in our private space and the first thing he will do is get rid of the Patriot Act" fast forward to 2011, this guy just signed an extension to the Patriot Act. I'm telling you, someone needs to stand up and "impeach" this guy with some lead, just like they did Kennedy's criminal ass. But this time around I believe it will spark a revolution, not like in the 60's where they already had us convinced that Russia was the devil and will nuke your little house in Kansas. PEOPLE STAND UP, AND JOIN TOGETHER. We will only win this fight and get through the horrible place our world has turned into once we defeat the bureaucratic system the
America and the West has pushed on us all.

Guest
- 06/02/2011 at 18:08

many interesting point.
thank you.
az

James del Valle
- 06/05/2011 at 01:50

Peter some good points in relation to American Politics regarding Russia but you don't have evidence that Al-Queda are not real, its very logical how everything has fallen into place, the reasons cited for its existence is the support of Israel by the USA, since Islam has undoubtedly radicalised since the 1967 Arab Israeli war when the Muslim Brotherhood and Al-Queda came into existence then your argument is illogical and unfounded. It amounts to shoving your head in the sand and believing no one can see you. It doesnt work, you will die.

James del Valle
- 06/05/2011 at 01:40

Europe and the United States really should tame the middle east and bring back the colonial days and remove Israel from the middle east completely and relocate it at the south pole, I however have doubts that the israelis can manage to live there without making the lives of local eskimos hell and creating world war 3 anyway.

Alexander Le Grand
- 12/16/2012 at 22:17

Should you find eskimos at the south pole.

adilrye
- 06/02/2011 at 05:04

The basic point of this doc is that there are no answers. There is no good guy and bad guy, no black or white. It's a complex problem and ultimately, doesn't fit well with simple answers or analysis. I liked this doc because it took the American, the Israeli and the Iranian perspective. And when you hear them all, it becomes less obvious. If you think about it from an Israeli standpoint, you can see why Iran is the enemy. But that applies to Iran as well.

Also, I have to say...if Israel doesn't want a nuclear Middle East, they should take the first step and get rid of the nukes they have. Or this stand off will never end. Also, I disagree with the notion that Israel would "cease to exist" without American support. Economically, Israel is quite dynamic. Now, SECURITY wise. That's a different story.

What this doc couldn't talk about (being made in 2007) is the Arab uprisings. What happens now when you have a (possible) new regime in Egypt that may be anti-Israeli, corresponding with popular sentiment with Arab Muslims? Or will Washington and Tel Aviv try something to install another Mubarak-esque regime? But these recent events certainly change the dynamic and make it even more complicated.

If the problem were mere real estate and oil, all this would have been put behind us before Sputnik was a household word. Ideological, as well as long standing animosities between Persians and Arabs, Shiites and Sunnis, block all progress. Sometimes I get the feeling that Israel is almost incidental.

There have been many breakthroughs, and moments when 'it all seemed possible', only then to founder. Extremists do not want peace(I shouldn't really say 'extremist's rather those for whom faith is central). Each of these contending factions of die-hards seek one thing, and one thing only: total conquest of a disposed-of vanquished.

These groups are nowhere near powerful enough to realize, even partially, their various(mutually exclusive) goals; but they obviously possess adequate power to see that no plan, other than their own, will ever have a chance at success.

I see no way out save the kind of popular uprisings that springs up out of nowhere at a times least expected. But it is never prudent counting on such events coming to the rescue. And, anyhow, 'popular uprising' bring with them their own unique quagmires.

To my mind, the real crux of the problem began, not with Suez but, rather, with the overthrow by the United States CIA of Iran's prime minister and subsequent installing of the Shah. That was probably the most far-reaching post-war blunder the United States has made.

What possessed them?! Even Sarah Palin couldn't be that d... (I take that back). How different the world would be today, and I don't just mean in the Middle East.

That single crime set the stage for every conceivable Latin American shenanigan the CIA could fudge. And the cost in lives; the forsaking over the years of all US government credibility, both foreign, and domestic(...don't get me started...).

I know it cannot be undone but, as of late, it almost seems as though there is an intent embedded within US foreign policy to flaunt crass arrogance in openly committing crimes, as though to say, yeah, and what're ya gonna do 'bout it?!

But I digress...

0zyxcba1
- 06/02/2011 at 03:17

This documentary was put together in 2007.

Four years in the Middle East is like forty normal years. I wonder how truly relevant this documentary is to our current 2011 predicament.

To reply to the comment from Rodrigo, no I agree that it plays a part, but I think it's a facade for real economic inequality, political crises (like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict), great power politics and a rush for oil.

I am aware that religious rivalries do play a major role in Middle Eastern politics, but in comparison to other things, frankly, I think it's less important.

Imo.

0zyxcba1
- 06/02/2011 at 07:45

@ adilrye,

I find your post rational, as opposes to:"People that believe that the wars they see happening are caused by religion must have a brain the size of a peanut."

As I mentioned to you earlier, I am aware that religion will not go away, so speculating as to what a Middle East devoid of superstition, yet rich in oil, might look like, can only end in fantasy.

However, the converse is not the case.

A Middle East of depleted oil reserves, yet rich in superstition, is the Middle East the young will live to see(maybe); and just what they will see is no more difficult to imagine than is a tinderbox.

Zionist visionaries will still be pushing for ever more 'settlements' as a means of annexation. Islamic crazies will persist forever fighting the Holy War to 'liberate' Palestine and, in the process, push Israel into the sea.

The wars of the Middle East that the young will see happening will be caused by religion, and religion only(almost :-). In any case, the young will get to see just how different those wars are from the current ones.

My best bet is that they will witness a distinction without a difference.

P.S.: Do you think the above is a serviceable speculative assessment from someone with a brain the size of a peanut? (lol)

P.P.S.: A Middle East utterly devoid of all superstition would see a bunch of not too unhappy Semites barbecuing spareribs in each other's backyards.

People that believe that the wars they see happening are caused by religion must have a brain the size of a peanut. When you were little did you fight for the front seat in church? NO!! You fought with the kid next to you over toys, over chocolat milk, over sweets. See, it's the same thing with adults.
They fight for power, oil, money, water. And religion as nothing to do with it, it preaches exactly the opposite, do the math, please...

Yeah but in the grand scheme of things, it's about power politics with a religious brush on it.

0zyxcba1
- 06/02/2011 at 02:35

@ adilrye, I honestly respect your message; but I think you might do even better with a little bit of meditation.

Do you honestly believe that without religion all else would be equal? Do you honestly believe that someone pandering to a religious base that no longer exists could ever be in the White House? ~ Sarah Palin nonsense!

Obviously, I could go on, but think about it for a while.

I am aware that religion will not go away.

But for someone to say the it isn't the core problem in the Middle East is less than ludicrous.

Don't you agree?

0zyxcba1
- 06/02/2011 at 02:39

@ Popescu Alexandru,

What "religious extremists?"
How could there possibly be "religious extremists" without religion?!

0zyxcba1
- 06/02/2011 at 02:17

No religion:
no Christianity;
no Catholic Church;
no Dark Ages;
no Crusades;
no stonings;
no burning people ALIVE;
no burying people ALIVE;
no atrocities committed against the peoples of the so-called 'New World';
no crushing to death of Giles Corey on September 19, 1692, in Salem Massachusetts.

No religion:
no Islam;
no 4000 gay executions;
no 100 lashes for women;
no 100 shot world-wide due to Danish cartoons of Mohammed;
no death threats against Salman Rushdie and other Muslim apostates;
no shooting in the back EIGHT TIMES of film director, Theo van Gogh, before having his head severed from his body because he 'offended Islam'.

No religion:
no Judaism;
no Holocaust;
no Israel;
no Third World War!

Who's brain is the size of a peanut?!

Guest
- 06/02/2011 at 06:06

Religion has done a lot more harm to spirituality than science ever did, ever will.
Science is concerned with the source the same way spirituality is, but it is coming from a different angle.
Religion claims to know the source, it is claimed by people who never tasted it, felt it, comprehended it, mastered it, and named it right.
Religion has inspired men to opress others the way they feel opressed by their Lord.

Spirituality is to belief one self to be i1.1i for the good of all.

Not an easy puzzle, a multi dimensional mirror reflective kind of passage into peace.
az

SillyWillyOneNut
- 06/02/2011 at 07:30

Well said indeed,.. you certainly are no T-Rex !!!

eugler
- 06/02/2011 at 02:23

You see, children don't fight over the front seat in Church because it's a terribly exposed position to have a decent sunday morning nap...

MomOnEarth
- 06/02/2011 at 02:37

Never underestimate the madness of the religious. This is not to say politicians and others who find it useful, do not manipulate them for their own purposes.

James del Valle
- 06/05/2011 at 01:59

I believe you are absolutely wrong and that Jews, Muslims and Christians preech social division, they also have a God which is pretty mad and likes to see lots of blood from Animals so what makes human blood any better.

StillRV
- 06/02/2011 at 00:02

Pretty nice and fairly neutral doc. Just more fuel for my belief in American full withdrawal and isolationism though. Cummon lets pull the plug on all of it. Bring all the boys and girls home, stop support payments to all of these nations. Don't sell them so much as a firecracker again. Let the world sort its self out. Meanwhile I know quite a few folks in west Virginia who could use a couple bucks to help em out before they starve to death.

Isolationism isn't possible anymore. We live in a deeply interconnected world...really, if a country pulls out and refuses to make any political or economic decisions about the world, they might as well doom themselves to North Korea-dom.

It's not about pulling out of the world, it's about making smarter political decisions.

StillRV
- 06/02/2011 at 03:18

Not entirely true. Unlike North Korea The US has access to its own natural resources. Also the infrastructure is already in place. It would mean a great deal of change in the way we do things though. Rebooting our manufacturing capabilities as well as diverting the activities of the military toward more constructive ends such as parks management and utilities, also rebuilding the rail system would be a good idea. The unions would not like it but they are corrupt bung holes anyway.

StillRV
- 06/02/2011 at 03:28

And I agree with you on the religion as sole cause of modern woes. It is and has been just an effective tool used by the corrupt. There was no religious cause for the cold war. No religious cause for the US civil war. No religious cause for the war of 1812, WW1, WW2, French and Indian war, Spain vs England, American revolution, French revolution, etc etc. If religion ceased to exist entirely tomorrow (completely wiped from even the memory of man) We would have Race wars, Geopolitical wars, partisan wars, territorial disputes, and all backed by some other unifying rhetoric to rally the people. Religion has just always been a great tool.

CyberDog Breath
- 06/01/2011 at 23:05

Why cant all these retarded religions just kill each other off, get over and done with it, Get rid of all the religions, and the world will finally have peace. No longer will there be a reason to kill for some pathetic bricks and mortar. The world has collectively grown up enough to not need this child like mentality anymore. Move on, move on, nothing to see here....

What really disgusts me is this - Israel LIED to the world about their NUCLEAR WEAPONS program all through the 50-70's,.. they even gave tours of fake facilities to international weapons inspectors. Now they have over 900 of these evil devices. That is a sick number of nuclear weapons for such a puny little strip of dirt. The US and other countries which support Israel now seem to turn a blind eye. This is the very definition of insanity amongst states, and flies in the face of the world desire to reduce and ride this planet of devices which will render it sterile.

Now this is bad enough, but there is still something much worse. For many within Israel (Zionists) believe that the Temple on the Mount which is under the control of Palestine is the sacred site where Jesus or his cousin will return in the last days before Armageddon. Israel MUST regain control of this site. Again, religious dogma is the root cause of the whole problem - it's a fight over religious pissing ground. A fight between a country armed to the teeth with nukes and one that throws stones, David and Goliath with a lemon twist. Nuclear weapons were designed with the psychotic belief that if everyone has them no one would use them. When power is not balanced, that country on the low end of the teeter-totter will inevitably feel threatened and thus pursue ways and means to acquire the big stick.

Now Israel is pointing it's finger at Iran - because they are suspected of wanting the bomb. Does anyone else other than me SMELL a HYPOCRITICAL attitude here !!!

This is going to end in one way, and it will be a human caused Armageddon, the result of stubbornness, arrogance, greed, and the belief that one ethnic/religious group is superior to others - hey Israel even you take craps and wipe your butts in much the same way the rest of us do.

ISRAEL must learn to cooperate with the Muslim world - you must learn to find your place amongst other countries which do not share your narrow minded ideology. If this country continues on it's arrogant, self centered path we will ALL suffer a unfortunate and totally avoidable loss.

When you say "many within Israel (Zionists) believe that the Temple on the Mount which is under the control of Palestine is the sacred site where Jesus or his cousin will return in the last days before Armageddon" do you actually know how many?
Not only you are confusing Christian beliefs with Jewish ones, you neglect to mention the fact that Israel gave the Palestinians the control over the Temple Mount by it's own accord and without conditions, although it sits on the ruins of David's Temple which is an important Jewish Heritage site and that the Palestinians refuse to let Jews visit this site. Also they destroyed a large bulk of Jewish archeological artifacts ever since they control it.
And now you claim Israel MUST regain control of this site?
Please point out when in recent history Israel has ever tried to "regain control" of the Temple Mount.

misterwong
- 06/02/2011 at 00:29

Although cooperation between Israel and the Muslim world is imperative,it seems a remote possibility.It's simplistic to regard this issue as merely a clash over religious domination,albeit sinister.I see the fulfillment of Apocalyptic prophecy as a monsterous invention that propels the war agenda and obscures the perception.Religion is for suckers,but has deadly consequenses.I realize that the destruction of man(Armageddon)will be by our own hand and not by some Divine Retribution.This is the Wrathful Hand of God.Our ignorance and Conciet.The destiny of Man is in the
care of those dedicated to War,power,wealth in the cloth of
holy ,righteous heroes..Remember Man that you are dust,and to dust you shall return..an inescapable destiny..

Roy
- 06/02/2011 at 00:44

It is a somewhat of a pessimistic view of the world, don't you think?
I agree that organized religion can be very dangerous, but religion does not rule today's world. I believe those who view the world in a critical and scientific way are just as numerous as those who see it in the prism of religion.
Also, let's be honest - the dangerous kind of organized religion is just a tool used by extremists and racists on both sides to incite and recruit the masses for their cause and agenda.
I personally believe that in the end logic, reason and compassion would Gain the upper hand. but maybe I'm naive.

SillyWillyOneNut
- 06/02/2011 at 00:49

OK,.. for your own education do this - Ask 10 Israeli citizens if they believe that the Temple Mount and that David thing should be under Jewish control, then report back with your findings. You will find that the desire to control this site is a prime concern within this population.

Roy
- 06/02/2011 at 01:18

I live within this population all my life and i'll even agree with you - I too think it should be under Israeli control and i even don't believe in god. why? because clearly the Palestinians do not share the same respect we give them and the sites which are important for them as they deny access to the temple mount to Jews but Israel does not deny access to any of the sites important to Muslims.

But, do I concern myself with it? not really as do most of the Israeli population. we don't "desire" to control the Mount and it doesn't have any implication on the actions of all Israeli governments in the past and the present.

this is what we call - COMPROMISE -. you compromise on the things that are less important to you to maintain a peaceful coexistence.

if you truly think this issue has any bearings on the conflict.. well.. there are also people who think that 9/11 was a Zionist plot and that NASA faked the moon landing. so what?

misterwong
- 06/02/2011 at 00:34

I think I hear what you are saying with exception to the HIPPOCRATIC
attitude.An ethical oath of physicians to,in short, do none harm.What you describe here appears to be the opposite

SillyWillyOneNut
- 06/02/2011 at 01:00

Hippocratic attitude is not just a medical virtue rather simply based upon saying one thing and doing another,.. a practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess with ensuing falseness. How can Israel not be guilty of this when pointing the finger at Iran simply because they are suspected of wanting the bomb, and at the same time Israel having such a large inventory of these weapons ?

Maybe if Israel was striped of these weapons of mass destruction then the region would have a chance at peace. Weapons of this nature are very intimidating and will cause those in the target site to act defensively.

misterwong
- 06/02/2011 at 01:35

I think perhaps you mean "HYPOCRITE or HYPOCRITICAL" in Greek,the word means
an Actor

MomOnEarth
- 06/02/2011 at 02:47

It is a sorrowful mess. And how are your cortisol levels doing?

MomOnEarth
- 06/02/2011 at 02:53

Also, you mean "hypocritical" attitude, I think. Hippocratic is what more people need.

SillyWillyOneNut
- 06/02/2011 at 03:18

Yes, yes I get it, wrong word use,.. poo on me, but you get the idea.

MomOnEarth
- 06/02/2011 at 03:21

Yes, got it. Didn't mean to cause any stress.... really.... just being a mom.

SillyWillyOneNut
- 06/02/2011 at 05:52

It is the motherly instinct that the men of this world need to learn and promote, this way we might find our self again.

MomOnEarth
- 06/02/2011 at 19:24

Looks like it worked for the baboons, didn't it.

Guest
- 06/01/2011 at 16:52

Zionism: An ultimate weapon of worldwide satanic conspiracy:
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other."

Do google for refrence, but everything is going so well according to "plan" :D

This doc had a few interesting perspectives mixed in with a whole lot of pro-israel propaganda. I felt that argument was not well balanced enough. There was too much focus on what would happen if Iran's radical leader ( Ahmadinejad ) gain nuclear weapons without actually raising the fact that he plays a very minimal role in the political structure and decision making process of Iran, which is held by the Supreme Leader... That being said, Iran getting their hands on nuclear is just as destabilizing to the region as is Israels current stock piles of nuclear weapons.. More importanly, ZERO mention to the reason why the EU and many middle east countries are at such arms against Israel - their horrific massacres of the Palestinian people and their land which they have zero plans of stopping.

I thought this was going to end up being Zionist propaganda, but the film did at least offer some differing viewpoints. The thought of Iran having nuclear weapons is a scary one, but considering Israel has nuclear weapons due to its close ties with the United States bothers me just as much. How can America on one hand be against Nuclear proliferation, but then go and give nuclear technology to Israel? Is it OK since they are allied with us? If I were Ahmadinejad, I would want nuclear weapons. It serves as a great deterant to any nation thinking about invading. The US has repeatably failed in terms of foreign policy with Iran (especially during GW Bush's presidency).

It's a shame you write about something you don't know much... the U.S. has nothing to do with Israel having nuclear weapons. it was france and germany, among others, who provided the technology and it was before Israel and the U.S. were close allies.
how could you even recognize "Zionist propaganda" when you know so little on the subject?

SillyWillyOneNut
- 06/02/2011 at 02:02

Roy.. "the U.S. has nothing to do with Israel having nuclear weapons"

It is quite incriminating for any country which knew full well of Israels nuclear weapons development programs during the 50-70's and did little to prevent these programs. In a sense their foreign policy was to look the other way. The US is no exception. Your should check out Noam Chomsky's take on this matter,.. might open your eyes a bit wider.

thaji78
- 06/01/2011 at 10:14

Very interesting perspectives. I was shocked at that guy's proposal to give Iran nuclear weapons to ensure the region's stability. Sounds ludicrous, but when you think about it as per his logic it does make sense. After all, his books are studied by American military students.
And what's up with that Lebanese cougar? why is she so angry? She seemed more pissed than all the Israelis in the documentary put together....

An interesting documentary, a lot of different viewpoints and arguments are tossed around about he future prospects of Israel that offers very little solutions but raises many questions.

What will be the likely outcome of a war with Iran?
how will American relations with Israel be affected?
What are the potential implications of Iran gaining Nuclear enrichment,
and so on....

One gains from this documentary the fragility of Israel and need for its constant defense, one almost feels sorry for their present situation and their uncertain future.

However, Israel is defiantly not innocent, unlike Iran it already has Nuclear Weapons and its treatment of the Palestinians are some of the worst human atrocities perpetrated by a civilized nation.
Its tragically Ironic considering Jews suffered similar atrocities almost 50 years ago.

- all Israeli wars since 1948 including the Israeli Palestinian conflict: about 65,000 (Israeli and Arabs)

- Second Sudanese Civil War 1983 - 2005: between 2,000,000 to 1,000,000

- Second Congo War 1998 - 2003: between 5,400,000 to 3,800,000

- Iran–Iraq War 1980 - 1988: between 2,000,000 to 500,000

- Vietnam War 1955 - 1975: between 6,000,000 to 2,495,000

- Korean War 1950 - 1953: between 3,500,000 to 2,500,000

- Darfur conflict 2003 - 2010: between 400,000 to 178,258

- Rwandan genocide 1994: between 1,000,000 to 500,000

- Massacres of Tutsis 1993: about 50,000

- Cambodian Genocide 1975 - 1979: between 1,671,000 to 3,000,000

and the list continues much further. the saddest thing is most of you haven't heard of most of these conflicts and probably know virtually nothing about the ones you heard of. yet you are so occupied on the Israeli Palestinian conflict in the pseudo virtue of humanism (maybe @thaji78 could explain to me how Israel is responsible for any of the above conflicts). where was your liberal voice when those people were massacred by the tens of millions in Africa, the Middle East and the Far East?

And these are just death tolls. I haven't even mentioned the frequent cases of brutal rapes, stoning, forced circumcision, mutilations, Ghettoes, Afghanistan war of the 70's, Afghanistan war of the 21 century, Iraq war of 2003, holocaust, apartheid of south africa, the opium war, humane experiments on blacks, Asians and retarded people and....... I had enough.

But with all those 20 and 21 century atrocities you still believe that Israel is responsible for one of the "worst human atrocities perpetrated by a civilized nation" and also compare it to what happened in the holocaust.
if it wasn't sad it would be.... actually it isn't. you obviously know nothing about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict nor the atrocities you compare it with.

Guest
- 06/01/2011 at 16:55

I am willing to learn from your knowledge of Israel and it's history. Make sure you put a bit of both side of the coin.
The same goes for the US or Iran or any other country, i like to read not just the pro but also the con.
In one there is the problem and in the other a suggested solution. In one there is the positivie and in the other the drawback.
I read you with great interest although i do not agree with all your views.
I have traveled the middle east, Syria, Lebannon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Turkey...never was in Israel.
At the time (in 2000 during a one year around the world), i didn't want to jeopardize my entry into different countries because of a stamp in my passport. I would have loved to visit Israel though.
May be in the future.
az

Geoffrey Grekin
- 06/01/2011 at 18:45

*cough* ---
Please re-read what I said,
"atrocities perpetrated by a civilized nation." What I mean is a Western nation with a place in the UN, financial and military backing from American and a Nuclear weapon program.

Furthermore, the death-toll you mentioned concerning Israeli-Palestine conflict is considerably light. People die everyday in the region and not simply during wars.

Finally, in relation to the other atrocities of genocide and wars you mentioned....
Yes these are tragic figures, but unlike Israel, most of these actions are committed by second or third world nations.
I'm not saying this is any less tragic...

Nor was I comparing what the Israeli people were doing to the Holocaust.
I said their suffered similar atrocities of segregation, isolation, and racism... These similar conditions eventually lead to the Holocaust, the systematic murdering of Jews, this is not the case in Palestine, it is not a holocaust, nor a genocide... but if trends continue and a global conflict ensues, then the potential for genocidal action is there.

And just LIKE the holocaust, when a civilized first world nation under conditions of hate and prejudice who see a people as a threat to their survival are pushed into a global conflict, this is when genocidal actions occur.

Roy
- 06/01/2011 at 21:23

Hi Geoffrey,

The numbers I gave you were not of only the Israeli-Palestine conflict but to all the conflicts in Israel's history (the conflicts with Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and the pan Arabs in general). your bewilderment by those numbers shows how little you knew of the conflict you criticize.

I truly understand that the numbers I gave you are too "light" to fit your subjective view of the conflict, but the most exaggerated numbers I know of regarding the death tolls of only the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, between 1948 - present day, are - 15,000 souls - (this number includes Jews and Muslims alike and all the casualties, in war time and the "everyday" casualties).

If it doesn't sound like the atrocities you thought are happening here, I'm sorry. maybe you can produce a valid source which states bigger numbers, but I doubt it.
What is more disappointing is the fact that in our modern times, a 30 seconds search in Google could reveal that fact for you.

As to your definition of "civilized nation", most people would disagree with your very specific conditions to be a civilized nation (Western nation with a place in the UN, financial and military backing from American and a Nuclear weapon program). I may be wrong but Israel is the only nation he fit that description and I am sure you don't believe Israel to be the only civilized nation in the world.

But I got your drift:

Russia - Second Chechen War, 1 year - 45,771-73,802 dead, most of them civilians. 150,000 civilian refuges. regardless of the war, Chechen civilians were, and still are, regularly tortured , kidnapped and executed.

USA and NATO - War in Afghanistan (2001–present)- 14,000-34,000 Civilian deaths. many human rights and war crimes committed by the US and NATO.

again NATO and US - current Iraqi war - highly disputed but the lowest I know about estimates about 100,000 civilians dead and 3,400,000 refuges from Iraq and neighboring countries. not to mention countless war crimes violations.

China - endless humane rights violations ranging from torture, Capital punishment (China executes more people each year than the rest of the world combined), Political abuse of psychiatry, the occupation of Tibet, Judicial mutilation against Tibetans, persecutions and many more.

Sri Lanka (not a third world country for you who don't know) - Sri Lankan Civil War (with Collaboration of India) - about 100,000 dead, many of them civilians and countless war crimes. also 2,400,000 refuges. please search in Google "UN Reporting Civilian Casualties: Sri Lanka vs. Gaza".

shall I continue?

The problem, as I see it, with those who go out against Israel so fiercely in regards to the Israeli-Palestine conflict from a humanitarian and liberal standpoint is that there are conflicts around the world which involves first, second and third world countries that produce far more tragic atrocities and bloodshed and human rights violations and war crimes then the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has ever produced and in regards to those conflicts they remain mostly silent.
Today, an unbelievable amount of humanitarian aid and effort are thrown over the Israeli-Palestine that if just 10% of it is diverted to any of the above conflicts, it would effect for the better much much more lives who need it much more then the Palestinians who's quality of life is usually better then most third and second world countries. what I just said is confirmed by the Palestinians Life expectancy, medical care, nutrition, education and other aspects (Please! I implore you to check it out for yourselves. do some research).

Lastly, I accept that you weren't comparing what the Israeli people were doing to the Holocaust.
But, you already showed you know little about this conflict, and I'll take an educated guess that you know even less about Israeli society.
your assertion that the Palestinian situation is due to hate and prejudice by the Israelis is wrong. moreover, your comparison of the precursors of the Jewish Holocaust to be similar to todays conflict is also wrong.
You may find some similarities but you Ignore big differences between the 2 situations. some of the major differences are that the Jews in Nazi Germany did not participate in wars to annihilate Germany, they did not commit terrorism and slaughter German civilians (and please don't bother claiming they are entitled to fight against Israel aggregation because the slaughtering of Jews by Palestinians started long before Israel existed and before the Jewish community in Palestine had any army whatsoever), they did not educate their children about blood libels against the Germans, they did not deny Germany right to exist and most importantly they were German citizens and the Palestinians are not Israeli citizens.
How your theory sits with the fact that 1.5 Israeli Arabs do not suffer atrocities of segregation, isolation, and racism (as you defined it) and have full civilians rights.

I understand I am not entirely objective on this subject but if you know the facts of this conflict you have to agree that the Palestinians have AT LEAST an equal responsibility to the situation we are witnessing today. they had tremendous influence on their own fate but the Jews of Nazi Germany did not (except of having the foresight of fleeing in time).

Geoffrey Grekin
- 06/01/2011 at 22:17

Roy,

With all due respect, your logic is very flawed.

Throughout the century, and the course of history there has been countless events, people and acts of horrendous atrocities throughout history...
You can Quote all the numbers you like, on who has the biggest number of deaths etc..., It still does not change the fact that what Israel is doing is WRONG, and clearly a human rights violation.

Yes, everyone knows about the suicide bombers that kill Jewish settlers, and I for one do not condone such actions.
But this is war, and unlike Israel they do not have Guns, they don't have tanks, Planes nor Bombs to carry out Vengeance (which is what Israel does whenever its attacked).
For every innocent Israeli that dies 10 Palestine are killing in retaliation perpetuating a circle of violence.

I know of all the other scenarios you talk about of human atrocities and I condemn them all, yet the subject here is Israel, and they are no worse nor better than any other 'Human Atrocity", whether is China, Indonesia, Iraq or Iran, all the wars and genocides and human atrocities are done under the guise of Good, and you will always find people defending them.
Pointing at another conflict to justify some point serves no purpose, There will always be worse attrocities.

Nevertheless 'The Fact Remains':
Israel was established 60 years ago and uprooted a people who had lived there for almost 1000 years.
This was the start of the Israel conflict, Palestinians never attacked or killed Jews Prior to this point.
War only made the situation worse, Israel won with the help of US finance and Weaponary.

Now Israel builds strategic "Settlements" in palestine, militarily occupying them.
They also use international pressure to boycott Palestine, killing many more Palestinians who won't show up in your Numbers
They also use American to veto UN resolutions against Israel
They bulldoze Palestinian property indiscriminately in Palestine!,
They have checkpoints, and launch missiles and air-strikes resulting in collateral damage killing innocent civilians.

Yet all you can say is that Palestine sends suicide bombers to kill Jews and that they are somehow equally responsible.....

If you corner an animal into a corner and poke it with a stick again, and again, and again...
Don't blame the animal is it bites back.

P.S.
I don't HATE Israel, and I don't HATE Jews (I myself being one),
What I'm impartial to however is abusive and negative atrocities, whether Rwandan origin or in this case Israel.

Roy
- 06/01/2011 at 23:54

"Yet all you can say is that Palestine sends suicide bombers to kill Jews and that they are somehow equally responsible....." - is it really all I said? you took one argument, distorted it a little because I gave at least 4 more arguments why the Palestinians are equally responsible, and you really claim thats all I said?

First of all I want to point out that when you said " It still does not change the fact that what Israel is doing is WRONG, and clearly a human rights violation." - it is very different from what you said in your first post ( Israel is responsible for one of the "worst human atrocities perpetrated by a civilized nation). so I am glad we cleared that issue out of the way.

Well Geoffrey, I truly believe it's legitimate that people think what Israel is doing is wrong. I myself think that some of what Israel is doing is wrong. but I do mind when it's based on a distorted history, and your post is full of historically wrong facts. I don't say it out of spite. let me give you some examples.

you said - "Israel was established 60 years ago...This was the start of the Israel conflict, Palestinians never attacked or killed Jews Prior to this point" - this claim is very wrong. please search on the following events:
- 1920 Palestine riots (13 jews killed)
- 1921 Jaffa riots (45 Jews killed)
- 1929 Hebron massacre (133 Jews killed)
- 1929 Safed massacre (20 Jews killed)
- 1936 Labor Strike Revolt (80 Jews killed)
- 1936 - 1939 Arab riots (415 Jews killed)
as you might know, Israel was established only in 1948 so I really don't know from what sources you assert that Palestinians never attacked or killed Jews Prior to the creation of Israel.
I can tell you what really DID NOT happen before the creation of Israel - not one Palestinian was uprooted by the Jews before the 1948 war, so what is your explanation for the butchering of the Jews prior to 1948?

you said - "Yes, everyone knows about the suicide bombers that kill Jewish settlers, and I for one do not condone such actions." - did you use the word Settlers instead of civilians purposely? because I truly hope you know that most suicide bomber's victims are not settlers but civilians inside Israel in Tel Aviv, Haifa Jerusalem etc...
well, in any case you don't condone such actions but you clearly understand it and come to terms with it as you rationalized it by saying - "But this is war, and unlike Israel they do not have Guns, they don't have tanks, Planes nor Bombs to carry out Vengeance" - can you seriously tell me you understand the actions of the Palestinians who just recently slit the throat of a 3 months old baby and his 3 years old brother? what legitimacy such actions have, no matter what the Circumstances are? and what relevance does it have if those babies were settlers or not? this kind of examples are many and numerous, to my disdain.

you said - "Nevertheless 'The Fact Remains':
Israel was established 60 years ago and uprooted a people who had lived there for almost 1000 years." - this claim is again wrong on 2 levels.
First, the number of Arabs population in the beginning of the 1900 was about 240,000. the number of Arab population in 1948, just before the creation of Israel, was about 1.5 million Arabs. this was mostly due to Arab immigration to Palestine and not natural growth. check the numbers for yourself if you like (the numbers differ but the relative growth is the same). these numbers, and the fact most Arabs of 1948 were immigrants, are supported by the British mandate census and the many British commissions to Palestine. as you might know, after the war about 700,000 Arabs fled/uprooted/left Palestine.
so, most of the Palestinians who claim the "right of return" are just as immigrates to this land as the Jews. they did not live in Palestine for millenia as you claim. furthermore, many of the original 240,000 Arabs (and their decedents) who DID live in Palestine for a millenia, are still here living their lives.
Secondly, your claim that all those who left Palestine after the war were uprooted by Israel is also false. most of them left because they were told to do so by the Arab leadership or fled out of fear (there was a war going on). 2 shining examples are the Arabs of Haifa who left because of the Arab leadership and in spite the Jews of Haifa imploring them to stay and promising them that no harm will come to them (Google it). the second example is the Arabs of Safad who fled because un-based fears of retribution to the massacre they committed on the Jews in 1929, as I mentioned above (Google it also).

you said - "They also use international pressure to boycott Palestine" - are you seriously claiming this? one of the most Prominent features of today's Palestinian struggle is the enormous campaign to boycott Israel in economics, culture, academics and what not. it's everywhere. where is this "international pressure" you talk about taking place?

you said - "killing many more Palestinians who won't show up in your Numbers" - this is just baseless accusation. "my numbers" are not my own. they are from the most established international humanitarian organizations. maybe they are not convenient for your beliefs but if you can refute them, please do so. don't just throw abstruse claims.

In conclusion, I really don't have a problem with people criticizing Israel but if you do so, please do it from an educated viewpoint and not ignorance.
Your post shows tremendous lack of knowledge on the subject. I don't say this to diminish you or to insult you. but if you want to be taken seriously at least research a little bit your claims before you post them.