Hello all,
I wanted to ask you all what you thought of handshake inductions and hypnotism as used by the likes of Derren Brown in his shows.
Are they real or do you think it's just "window dressing"?
At one of Derren Browns shows last year, I was lucky enough to be picked to go on stage. He grabbed my hand as he took it and put it to my face and went into the speech about being relaxed and not asleep but in a heightened state of awareness etc. The thing is- I was completely fully aware of what he was doing. i KNOW I was stood there with my eyes shut and head down because that's what he wanted me to do and I didnt want to spoil the show. But I was in NO WAY hypnotised at all. I was completely awake.
Do you think that this is what always happens during stage shows? Is it all just playinfg along with the magician because we are too embarrassed to say "hang on, this hasnt worked, mate".
I am beginning to question the validity of so-called instant inductions. Any thoughts??
T

I agree with what the goat and some of what Brad Henderson said.
Hypnosis is just another concept that has been studied by western doctors and psychologists for 150 years, found of little to no value and discarded, only to be recycled later by entertainers and pseudo-healers alike.

Hypnosis has, however, a very strong historical meaning in our culture, and that's a big part of what makes people "playing along".

Although it must be told that at some point in the early 900 people who used it as a therapeutical tool (Erickson and for a little while even Freud) have achieved a few positive results, the way we inherited hypnosis ("...mysterious man shakes your hand, touches your shoulder and you fall in a deep trance where you can't help but..." etc etc) is total bollocks, and as you could experience youself, just people playing along.

It does prove though, how people are suggestible, but not into thinking they are chickens or whatever, but in not admitting that they were playing along.

Everyone has their beliefs and is entitled to them just as in religion or politics. Mine is that all hypnosis is suggestion, sometimes it takes hold sometimes it doesn't depending on different factors.

It seems to me hypnosis can be seen to be made up of many psychological activities that occur every day, so if one doesn't believe in hypnosis they can rightfully attribute the phenomena to one of the psychological principles.

If they do believe in hypnosis, then it's perceived magic-like and it's hypnosis. I believe the truth is in both ends of that spectrum. It's using normal, known methods of suggestion and learning, in a certain context giving it the name of hypnosis, and that's fine with me. Much of the time the hypnotists don't know why it works (the specific psychological principles etc.) they just reduce it to belief in hypnosis... and that's ... OK I guess... religious people reduce it to "God" etc. too but IMHO it's all suggestion.

Placebo is a suggestion in which once imagined a cure is given, the brain starts processes to heal. It's not that the person was tricked into thinking he/she has a 'real' pill that heals, it's the anticipation and imagining of it occurring so vividly. No one knows why or how the brain can do this, just that it does.

There is a whole spectrum, from placebos, faith healers, hypnosis, meditations , prayer etc. That can give similar miracle/magic results, but I believe it all lies in the suggestion, which is not to take away anything from it (hypnosis), on the contrary it make me embrace it all the more when I see all of these types of suggestion in action.

There is a spectrum of suggestion, different types of conditioning, advice from a friend, to being told you'll never amount to anything from a parent etc., going into becoming a belief. The spectrum to the whole hypnosis thing is so huge, that most everyone has different definitions and criteria for it and some say it doesn't exist.

Derren suggested that you relax, and you relaxed in the way you know how/have seen others relax in hypnosis. He suggested you to be in a heightened state of awareness, and it sounds like you were! He didn't suggest to feel strange or to be in a "trance" whatever a trance is (there are many many definitions of trance), so I wouldn't expect to feel any different then what he suggested. So you may or may not have been hypnotized, it depends on your definition and criteria. Only you can decide for you.

Either way, the powers of the mind are awesome and fun in a show context.

I am very skeptical of hypnotists, and have yet to see a demonstration that has convinced me. A few years ago, Derren did a bit with Simon Pegg that was persuasive at first glance, but on running through it again, I was able to get at the real method. The fact that it wasn't hypnosis seems to lend strength to the question "If hypnosis exists truly, why did he not actually employ it to achieve the results he was seeking?"

...it shouldn't really be a surprise.
The BMJ published a nice paper showing that if you give someone a pill and tell them it is Anadin, it will cure their headaches faster than if you don't tell them it is Anadin.

However, does that mean people should be able to charge huge amounts of money for being Suggestors?

It feels VERY like faith healing to me.

Should the BMA/BMJ be supportive of this pseudo-science?

I'd be fine if they removed all the bollocks from it and said "If I tell you something with authority it is likely you will believe it". But to dress it up as something scientific feels me with ickiness.

And then when people are selling expensive courses/books/DVDs to magicians to make them think they can hypnotise people it gets even worse...

Unlike faith healing, hypnotism/suggestion/placebo works - in a limited sense. So it does have value. Now - do you put that value into the hands of expensive Suggestors? Or do you encourage the BMA to use it, when they understand the limited circumstances in which it is helpful?

"Surely drug free painless surgery would be lapped up by the medical community?"

Hypnotism has been used quite successfully for pain free operations. Feel free to read Dave Elman's Hypnotherapy. Dave Elman only taught to physicians and dentists for specifically in the use of hypnotism for pain relief.

I don't know about stage hypnotism, but hypnotism is quite real, which I know from extensive personal experience.

Unlike faith healing, hypnotism/suggestion/placebo works - in a limited sense. So it does have value. Now - do you put that value into the hands of expensive Suggestors? Or do you encourage the BMA to use it, when they understand the limited circumstances in which it is helpful?

But Faith Healing works too. There are thousands of testimonies from people with mild problems that were cured. OK, admittedly, faith healing isn't quite so hot on serious conditions, but with small things it works.

I don't know Damian. I do know that Dave Elman's work is well documented and there are many case studies of painless childbirth and surgery using hypnosis. As to why it isn't more widely used, I would assume it has to do with it not being taught in medical schools and without someone like Elman around to promote the techniques, it probably died off. I have no idea. I do know from personal first hand experience the powers of hypnosis and have no doubt it could be used for pain free surgery.

billmccloskey wrote:I don't know Damian. I do know that Dave Elman's work is well documented and there are many case studies of painless childbirth and surgery using hypnosis.

Well the entire medical community must just be idiots then, there is clearly no other explanation. Elman's work is 'well documented' and you know hypnosis 'exists', so therefore these retarded scientists must just be being stupid.

Do you have a medical degree? Are you speaking because you have done research in this area? While hardly an expert, I've been studying hypnosis for about 4 months now pretty intently. How do you know hypnosis is not being used currently? Are are you just talking through your hat.

Quick search on the internet reveals many doctors using hypnosis for pain relief. I quick search on hypnothoughts.com have many current videos of doctors using hypnosis for pain relief and painless child birth. so I guess "the entire" medical community are not idiots. :)

billmccloskey wrote:Quick search on the internet reveals many doctors using hypnosis for pain relief. I quick search on hypnothoughts.com have many current videos of doctors using hypnosis for pain relief and painless child birth. so I guess "the entire" medical community are not idiots. :)

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Well, OK, the majority of doctors are clearly idiots then. It really is the only explanation, isn't it?

And yes, I bet there are loads of youtube clips and unsupported stories with no actual research that claim amazing results. When you look more closely at those stories and see things like local anaesthetic being used and not reported in the stories, you kinda have to think that it's all nonsense though, don't you?

Where are the peer reviewed double blind tests proving it works?

There are youtube clips of people saying fairies exist. I'm not sure a video on a pro hypnosis website is good enough evidence, do you? I imagine there are loads of videos on homeopathy sites from homeopathists claiming their water works. In fact, I bet right now there are videos on religious forums saying they prayed for someone and the next day they were cured.

I'd like to see a peer reviewed, double blind, research paper published in a respected medical journal. But I cannot find one. It must be a cover up, or most doctors are idiots.

"
I'd like to see a peer reviewed, double blind, research paper published in a respected medical journal. But I cannot find one. It must be a cover up, or most doctors are idiots."

Ha.. I can just imagine how much you've researched it.

Believe what you want friend. It is not my job to educate you. This I can state with 100% certainty: you don't know what you are talking about and don't have a clue when it comes to hypnotism. So end of conversation.

as for the the original question, handshake inductions are possible but need immediate deepening techniques. In my experience, and I've been practicing hypnotism daily for about 4 months, longer inductions get better results. My initial induction takes about 45-60 minutes (hardly good for stage work), but then I don't do stage work. All my work is one on one.

billmccloskey wrote:"I'd like to see a peer reviewed, double blind, research paper published in a respected medical journal. But I cannot find one. It must be a cover up, or most doctors are idiots."

Ha.. I can just imagine how much you've researched it.

Believe what you want friend. It is not my job to educate you. This I can state with 100% certainty: you don't know what you are talking about and don't don't have a clue when it comes to hypnotism. So end of conversation.

If you can't find a double blind, peer reviewed research paper in a respected medical journal proving your point, just say so, no need to act like a kid about it.

I thought it would be easy for you to find something like that?

Clearly not.

Two possible reasons why:

a) there isn't one
b) there isn't one

PS I found a video clip of someone saying prayer healed their cancer! Amazing! Let's get praying added to the list of things that cure things immediately. After all, there is a video on the internet proving it!

billmccloskey wrote:"...Believe what you want friend. ...This I can state with 100% certainty: you don't know what you are talking about and don't have a clue when it comes to hypnotism. So end of conversation...

Bill, it falls upon you to offer evidence for the extraordinarly claim you purport to have experience, faith and confidence in.

Just how sure are you that your local busy dentist could murmer sweet nothings in your loved ones ear so their cavity drilling, or a root canal procedure, would not cause them much pain and hysteria?

Nice to say you believe a thing as online text but what do you have to support that as real-world practice that we could ask for when we go to the dentist?

Hypnotherapy by Dave Elman is a good source to start if you are really interested in this subject.

If you are looking for validation of Elman's techniques, there is more than enough evidence if you want to search it out. Personally, why would I care if you believe it or not? I don't. Believe, don't believe. I couldn't care less.

billmccloskey wrote:"...Believe what you want friend. ...This I can state with 100% certainty: you don't know what you are talking about and don't have a clue when it comes to hypnotism. So end of conversation...

Bill, it falls upon you to offer evidence for the extraordinarly claim you purport to have experience, faith and confidence in.

Sadly JT, like most people that have faith in something with no basis in evidence, Bill will be unable to offer any proof aside from the odd book by someone else that believes.

It's how these things go.

Faith is wonderful, it lets you believe in almost anything without any actual evidence, aside from weak anecdotal stories from completely biased sources!

My guess on why you don't see more of this is that the risks of anesthesiology are not as great as they where back in the 50's and 60's. I'm not a doctor but that is my guess. The Mayo Clinic became famous because they used hypnotic induction with every patient and dramatically reduced the rate of post surgery anesthesilogical issues. I don't have time to look up the source of that info but here is a website that talks about it: http://phoenixtransformational.wordpres ... -hypnosis/

The question isn't clinical efficacy at all. Hypnotism wasn't introduced because it was more effective than standard anesthesiology, it was because is was SAFER. During the 50's and 60's the rate of anesthesialogical complications was quite high. The attempt was to induce painfree surgery that was also complication free. there were many reasons why it WOULDN'T work, including any kind of doubt creeping into the mind of the subject. The subject has to believe it will work, or it won't. That is the nature of hynotism. And so not only were doctors trained, but pinoeers like Elman also recommended nurses and everyone who came in contact with the patient be trained not to raise any kind of doubt in the patient.

Placebs are actually a great demonstration of hypnotism: what the mind believes can be manifested in the body. It is a fascinating subject and having witnessed the dramatic results that occur in hypnotic subjects personally, it is a subject I've decided to devote myself to.

billmccloskey wrote:For those interested I'd recommend the Handbook of Hypnotic Suggestions and Metaphors by Dr. Corydon Hammond. Many many citations and studies on pain management. I'd also recommend:

Damian, the notion of a double blind (or even a blind) study on anesthesia during surgery is frightening.

Presuming one would even start to design such a study - imagine getting to where you read part of the protocol involves saying "neutral inductions" before performing the surgical procedure in full. OMG- that's likely worse than the studies that were done during WWII.