OK, so are you saying that years and years ago, doctors fed a poison to women to ensure that 30 years later they would have to do tests on the daughters of those women so that they wouldn't go broke?

No, she is pointing out the fact that the medical industry constantly takes advantage of women not being educated or informed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victorian

It has to do with the OP's complete disregard for any evidence or facts about things that she personally does not agree with.

I have been in college for over six years, studying biochemistry and pre-med. I am not afraid to seek out answers for my questions. I not only take the required classes, but sit down and meet with individual human beings in the medical field, Geneticists, forensic scientists, homoeopaths, Chinese Medicine doctors and neuropaths, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victorian

Please don't assume to know what I know. I am actually very educated. It shows a lack discernment. I think that if you want to get the root of why women have problems with childbirth a good (better?) place to start would be the fact that the idea that a woman's body is perfect is she is as thin as a rail is slammed into them from babyhood. Our bodies are never good enough, why should they be good enough to birth/breastfeed/etc. Victorian

Media does have a powerful impact on a woman's self-esteem regarding body image.
But we are wanting to discuss the Medical Industry, not the media.

Cervical Dysplasia is not cervical cancer. Nor will it always turn into cancer. Most cases of dysplasia will go away on their own.
Quote:
Cervical dysplasia is a term used to describe the appearance of abnormal cells on the surface of the cervix, the lowest part of the uterus.

Quote:
While dysplasia itself does not cause health problems, it is considered to be a precancerous condition....It can take 10 years or longer for cervical dysplasia to develop into cancer.

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Most HPV infections resolve within 6 months and many women develop immunity.

This is interesting, as the article then goes on to say how HPV left untreated causes problems...Maybe for those who do not develop immunity?

Here is one link..Cervical Dysplasia

I wonder how many cases of cervical cancer would decrease if women were allowed access to unbiased information regarding their health and how to stay healthy or minimize risks.
Too many women get unnecessary treatments for 'problems' that go away naturally and leave a woman with immunity.
How many women get unnecessary biopsies that leave scar tissue and then go on to have problems when giving birth?

What do you mean about unnecessary treatments? Your link says "Mild dysplasia is the most common form, and up to 70% of these cases regress on their own (i.e., the cervical tissue returns to normal without treatment). Moderate and severe dysplasia are less likely to self-resolve and have a higher rate of progression to cancer. The greater the abnormality, the higher the risk for developing cervical cancer." So upon biopsy they should be able to tell how severe the dysplasia is and ascess risk. The woman can then decide to have the cells removed or not. No one forces her to do anything. And immunity to exactly what is thwarted if the woman does have the treatment?

What do you mean about how many women could avoid cervical cancer if unbiased info were available? I have seen info about it from as long as I can remember, we are told constantly that having sex can spread STDs and that having multiple partners is even more dangerous and that condoms don't stop the spread of all STD's. What are they not telling women that you think they should? The info is right there on birth control pills that it does not prevent transmission of disease. We are all told that smoking increases risk of many forms of cancer, we are all taught that good nutrition can help prevent many cancers,

What do you mean about unnecessary treatments? So upon biopsy they should be able to tell how severe the dysplasia is and ascess risk. The woman can then decide to have the cells removed or not. No one forces her to do anything. And immunity to exactly what is thwarted if the woman does have the treatment?

Immunity to HPV. No, a woman does not need a biopsy to tell how severe the dysplasia is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mara

What do you mean about how many women could avoid cervical cancer if unbiased info were available? I have seen info about it from as long as I can remember, we are told constantly that having sex can spread STDs and that having multiple partners is even more dangerous and that condoms don't stop the spread of all STD's. What are they not telling women that you think they should? The info is right there on birth control pills that it does not prevent transmission of disease. We are all told that smoking increases risk of many forms of cancer, we are all taught that good nutrition can help prevent many cancers,

You are making assumptions based on how you were treated. Unfortunately, many women are not given this information. Women are not told that they have the right to seek out a second or third opinion. The doctor usually uses scare tactics to get her to submit to a biopsy or further treatment when that is not always the best course of action.

Originally Posted by mara
What do you mean about how many women could avoid cervical cancer if unbiased info were available? I have seen info about it from as long as I can remember, we are told constantly that having sex can spread STDs and that having multiple partners is even more dangerous and that condoms don't stop the spread of all STD's. What are they not telling women that you think they should? The info is right there on birth control pills that it does not prevent transmission of disease. We are all told that smoking increases risk of many forms of cancer, we are all taught that good nutrition can help prevent many cancers,

You are making assumptions based on how you were treated. Unfortunately, many women are not given this information. Women are not told that they have the right to seek out a second or third opinion. The doctor usually uses scare tactics to get her to submit to a biopsy or further treatment when that is not always the best course of action.

I thought you were saying that women aren't being given unbiased information that might help them prevent cervical cancer, so that's not what you meant? I must have misunderstood you when you wrote:

Quote:

I wonder how many cases of cervical cancer would decrease if women were allowed access to unbiased information regarding their health and how to stay healthy or minimize risks.

You are making assumptions based on how you were treated. Unfortunately, many women are not given this information. Women are not told that they have the right to seek out a second or third opinion. The doctor usually uses scare tactics to get her to submit to a biopsy or further treatment when that is not always the best course of action.

So how do you know what options the majority of women are given regarding their care with cervical cancer? Do you know that most women are being coerced into unnecessary treatments and not given options? Where did you find this outline of the standard of care?

I go for my annual exam. I self check my breasts monthly. I feel around all over the place. I know what is normal for my body and what is not.

I know my husbands cousins grew up without a mother because she did not believe in going for a pap smear. The oldest was 15 and the youngest was 8. Times when a young girl really needs her mother. They got to spend their childhood watching their mother die.

Close friends of my family watched their mother die their entire lives. She had ovarian cancer. The medical community all said she would not live to see her children grow up. What seemed to my childhood eyes as sheer will alone she lived to watch her youngest graduate from high school. Shortly after that she died.

My uncle was diagnosed with cancer and refused the chemo. The Drs. did not give him 6 months. He went 100% holistic and lived 3 more years.

My dh is a cancer survivor today because he knows his own body. He knew there was something wrong and he went to get tested. The Doctors did not want to send him for an MRI. He insisted. They found a big old tumour on his kidney.

Know your body. That is empowerment. Always get a 2nd opinion (or 3rd & 4th). That is empowerment. Go to the Dr. when you think there is something wrong. That is empowerment.

I agree that there is much change that needs to happen within modern medicine and that will happen with education. Knowledge is Power. People helping one another get the information they need is power.

So how do you know what options the majority of women are given regarding their care with cervical cancer? Do you know that most women are being coerced into unnecessary treatments and not given options? Where did you find this outline of the standard of care?

Over 20 years of experience helping women. Going with them to their doctor's appointments. Having sisters and daughters. Talking to other women. Not just in this country either, but all over the world, from Japan to Australia, from Lac Brochet to Brazil, from Russia to the Carribean.
Also, from meeting with doctors and OB/GYN and asking them questions. They are human beings and don't always keep up to date or ask questions themselves. A lot of them blindly follow what they were taught in med school. A lot pull out their handy-dandy AMA Journal and point out what it says in there.

I have been in college for over six years, studying biochemistry and pre-med. I am not afraid to seek out answers for my questions. I not only take the required classes, but sit down and meet with individual human beings in the medical field, Geneticists, forensic scientists, homoeopaths, Chinese Medicine doctors and neuropaths, etc.

how many credits per term? What is your degree in? Are these the same doctors that told you that if a girl takes a drink of alcohol that her daughter's eggs will be deformed?

Where did you work for 20 years with women in the subject of healthcare? Are you telling us that every woman that you have worked with has been abused by the doctors? That every women knew her body enough to never listen to a thing that a doctor says? To not listen to actual facts? I hope that in your work you have not encouraged women to not get routine healthcare.

I really think it is unfair to ask me to do all the work and educate people on this thread. That is not the reason I started this thread. If it was, I would have done all the work already and laid it out fact by fact.

I, myself, am still learning and was hoping for more insight as to the medical industry and how it takes advantage of women and how can we change it. Not only as individuals, but as a collective of empowered, educated, and informed women who care about all the other women in the world. Especially for our daughters and grand-daughters.

I am sorry I did not have the in-sight to post this in my OP. I wrongly assumed that the MDC community would jump at the chance to have an intelligent, open discussion regarding the medical industry and women.

I really think it is unfair to ask me to do all the work and educate people on this thread. That is not the reason I started this thread. If it was, I would have done all the work already and laid it out fact by fact.

What was the reason you started this thread? Did you honestly expect everyone would just take what you are saying as gospel and agree with you? All anyone is asking you to do is to back up your assertions.

I really think it is unfair to ask me to do all the work and educate people on this thread.

I don't. I am educated. I expect you to educate yourself and not get upset when people challenge your assumptions. How can we have an open dialog if you are not open to questions and alternative information?

I don't. I am educated. I expect you to educate yourself and not get upset when people challenge your assumptions. How can we have an open dialog if you are not open to questions and alternative information?

I am not saying he has the right to force a pap. I am saying that if a patient will not get a pap, then the doc has a right to refuse to refill any birth control pills. If a woman become pregnant and the anti-depressants she is taking are effecting the baby, he is not going to just re-fill it because she wants to continue to take it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikirj

You are calling this appropriate? Her doctor is wrong for not forcing a pap smear? YIKES! Really? I mean...really? Wouldn't you think that the appropriate thing to do would be to advise her of the reasoning and dangers, allowing her the opportunity for informed consent OR the opportunity to decline? Don't you think that our care should be, at the very least to this extent, in our own hands? Likewise, the principle of informed consent should be about giving all the necessary information, not about coercion.

My pap exams only take about 1 minute. Hardly long enough to be emotionally damaging, the breast exams are short as well. I am always nervous, but the anticipation is much worse than the actual exam. And if they detect early cancer to give me more years with my children then I am all for it! I don't mind male doctors, but much prefer female docs!

Not all preventative medicine is bad. I think the benefits definitely outweigh the risks when it comes to pap smears.

It puts you at risk for infection. Also, the tools used are not always sterile. Having friends who work in the medical industry: after the exam the tools are removed and placed in a steamer and then repackaged. They are not tested to see if there are any germs or what not still on them. ie-resistant bacteria that is not killed by the steamers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies

I have been in college for over six years, studying biochemistry and pre-med. I am not afraid to seek out answers for my questions. I not only take the required classes, but sit down and meet with individual human beings in the medical field, Geneticists, forensic scientists, homoeopaths, Chinese Medicine doctors and neuropaths, etc.

Did you miss the class on microbiology and medical asepsis? Those ‘steamers’ are called autoclaves and they kill ALL germs even spores. Besides, pap smears are not sterile procedures, it is not surgery! It’s a clean procedure; I assume you know the difference between sterile, clean and dirty, since you have been in college for so long and all, unless you missed that class too.

I have been in college for over six years, studying biochemistry and pre-med.

I also would like an answer to credit hours and if you completed a degree program, and if so, what is it in.

Because I had two years of pre law, and I can tell you this, I'm no lawyer, nor does a few classes make me an expert nor a voice of reason. I mean, if you tell us not to trust the medical establishment, why should we listen to you?

Did you take your MCAT?

FWIW, we use disposable speculums in the ER which are sterile until you open them. The specimen swabs/brushes are sterile until opened as well, which means nothing because the vagina isn't sterile!

Quote:

Those ‘steamers’ are called autoclaves and they kill ALL germs even spores

I also would like an answer to credit hours and if you completed a degree program, and if so, what is it in.

Because I had two years of pre law, and I can tell you this, I'm no lawyer, nor does a few classes make me an expert nor a voice of reason. I mean, if you tell us not to trust the medical establishment, why should we listen to you?

Did you take your MCAT?

FWIW, we use disposable speculums in the ER which are sterile until you open them. The specimen swabs/brushes are sterile until opened as well, which means nothing because the vagina isn't sterile!

As a caring medical professional myself, I would like to mention two things that really struck me about this conversation.

First, to MITB - You need a good, up to date medical dictionary and an anatomy and physiology textbook.
Your original argument is "interesting"....
...but clouded with misinterpretation and misinformation (starting right off the bat with your original post). I'm not saying that nothing you are saying is correct, but most of your medical "facts" seem to be half-truths. Please ask one of your many medical and non-medical guru friends help you decipher news stories and medical studies. Try also to look further - the first thing you read that correlates with your sometimes faulty logic may make you feel good but doesn't necessarily mean it is the truth for the masses or should be shouted from some hilltop as gospel. You may even consider the fact that there seems to be many subscribers here who may be harmed by your line of thinking one of these days. (and yes, this is not the only thread I am speaking of - not harassing or following you around, I just keep noticing your sometimes eye-popping, jaw-dropping, forehead-slapping posts - they stick out like a sore thumb!!!).

Second, I feel bad for one of the PP's who said that she checked up on patients who are non-compliant and was very overtly flamed, called names, and had "I'm laughing at you" smilies directed at her. Caring practitioners do this as a way to assure that patients get the care they would want for themselves or a loved one, not because it lines their pockets. Whether you agree with whether that care is what you would want or not, it does not make her "creepy" or "Big Brother". As a practitioner who has spent 13 years in health care (most of that in woman-baby care), I can say with absolute certainty that there are many women who "need" to know that someone cares about them in this way before they will get the appropriate care they need and deserve. It sounds sad but it is true. I also think that folks who are not in the medical profession don't really understand how devastating it can be to have a patient routinely fight them on having a procedure (whether that be something as simple as a blood test, or something like a diagnostic surgery) then when the diagnosis actually comes down the pike, the patient turns around and sues the practitioner. Without some form of documentation that the patient has been contacted/informed, they could easily sue and win, and that hurts everyone, most of all the caring practitioner, who sometimes will become cynical or be forced out of business. It is sad that most health care consumers don't educate themselves properly and then go on to blame-mode as a way of managing their anger at their own (possibly poorly thought-out) choices and/or their denial.

Caring practitioners do this as a way to assure that patients get the care they would want for themselves or a loved one, not because it lines their pockets. Whether you agree with whether that care is what you would want or not, it does not make her "creepy" or "Big Brother".

If you don't come back, I want to know if you're declining the offer, or if you forgot, or if you don't have the money to come back, or if you sought care elsewhere.

I understand that care providers need to follow up as a CYA, and because some of them care. However, there's a difference between polietly following up, and harrassment if a patient chooses to decline testing, yk? Like, those postcards reminding you it's time for a physical are fine, but calling repeatedly if they don't come in is unacceptable. If a patient declines treatment, then calling and telling them they are stupid and going to die is unacceptable (happened to a friend of mine).

My former doctor was great, he had a section on your patient application/info sheet that said something like " I would like to opt out of receiving reminders for yearly checkups/pap exams". I checked the box Nice to not be "reminded", lol.

My current doctor doesn't harass me about not getting a pap smear. I don't do them. I have multiple reasons, and I'm not going to get into too much depth about them because I've made an educated, informed decision and will not argue it My main reason is risk vs. benefit, my alternative views on diseases and treatment, and the accuracy of the tests themselves.

It is interesting to me that so many women on this thread question everything (formula, disposeables, vaxes, circing, hospital birth, etc) but have never questioned "routine, necessary" womens health. How many care providers inform of the risks of pap smears (however slight they may seem compared to the supposed risks of not having one done)?

I am for totally informed consent, and many doctors simply don't inform.

Kristi

"Have faith in yourself and in the direction you have chosen." Ralph Marston

It is interesting to me that so many women on this thread question everything (formula, disposeables, vaxes, circing, hospital birth, etc) but have never questioned "routine, necessary" womens health. How many care providers inform of the risks of pap smears (however slight they may seem compared to the supposed risks of not having one done)?

I am for totally informed consent, and many doctors simply don't inform.

First, to MITB - You need a good, up to date medical dictionary and an anatomy and physiology textbook.
Your original argument is "interesting"....
...but clouded with misinterpretation and misinformation (starting right off the bat with your original post).

Thank you Dove. I had not realized that is how my posts read. I guess having spent over 20 years actually talking with medical experts, a lot of my information is based on those talks. I do not normally read such literature as I find it faulty and biased.
My posts with links were merely googled as an effort to answer people's questions. I was in no way trying to dispense medical advise, but was hoping for a more open discussion regarding the medical industry and women. Obviously, I am not the best writer when it comes to that. I have searched and searched MDC looking for another discussion I could join, but there were none. Only the one on pelvic exams.

As a patient, I am very verbal and demand the absolute best care, and have been fortunate, in the past, to have recieved that care. My gyno/ob retired, so, now most of my medical care falls on my family practioner who is awesome. If I want a test done and I know there is a safer way to test, I will tell him and he will look into it. If he agrees that it is safer and more accurate, he finds the money to have his clinic purchase/use the new tests. He has said he does not have the time to research, meet with other doctors, etc. so finds me valuable to his practice.

I understand that care providers need to follow up as a CYA, and because some of them care. However, there's a difference between polietly following up, and harrassment if a patient chooses to decline testing, yk?

Kristi

don't want to hijack, just want to respond:
Yes, I do know the diff between polite follow up and harassment. I really didn't want to imply that ALL practitioners are gems, I think I just want healthcare consumers to realize that not all practitioners are money-seeking uncaring robots who are "out to get them". There seems to be too many hurtful generalizations made on these boards about practitioners, particularly "mainstream" practitioners. I think we should be greatful for every little mercy. One of those mainstream docs may just save your life one day, or maybe not, and good for you! (I mean it).

I'm sorry that happened to your friend; I'm sure you are, too.

I just wanted to stick up for the pp, who really didn't need to be mocked.

That is where the beauty of choice comes in. We don't need to stay in abusive relationships - not with a partner, and certainly not with a practitioner, either.

We can choose what we want done, and when - you can always decline, it is your inherent right. Hell, you can get up from the gyno exam and walk away if you want to. One can even ask a pratitioner to go slower or ask that they respect the fact that you are scared/nervous/insert feeling here.

My hope is that anyone's choices are truly informed AND intuited, however...