This is an interesting topic, and one that the team I actually have spent a little time discussing this past week with the 2.8 stuff. I feel like we probably have fallen prey to mostly buffs because it makes people happy, and we’ve pushed our target DPS values for classes higher than the underlying combat theory on what the system expects. I think you will start to see some of that realization a bit as we try to be a little more careful about pure dps buffs (and some of the things we’ve done in round 1 of 2.8 patch are going to get ratcheted back a touch), and then we will need to decide what to do about the already live classes that are performing too well. It’s easy to say just start swinging the nerf bat, but that really isn’t a great solution. In a perfect world we will be able to make a bunch of small steps in a bunch of places (survivability, defense, threat, DPS, HPS) and get us to a better equilibrium, it is just going to take us awhile to get there.

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Instead of starting the nerf people, why not just design future content around the current power of the classes?

Courey Matthews

I love your comment ^

Telanis

Couldn’t agree more. “It’s not what the system expects” is nonsense weasel words

The Guilty Party

I’ve never understood this attitude. You hate numbers getting smaller, but if everyone else’s numbers just grow more than yours, that’s fine? Why is that better? I think complaining about changes to balance are ridiculous anyways, but saying ‘you can nerf me just let’s pretend it didn’t happen’ makes no sense at all.

Lux

That’s like… Not what I said at all.. lol

kungfuwoot

That would be using some common scene bro. That doesn’t fly with Bioware.

ptd163

I swear if the changes to Watchman get toned down…again. I’m quitting.

Docmal

You think one spec should be 10% – 15% higher than other comparable specs just because you play it? I would think that a sustained dps class like watchman should do 3-5% more on single target than a burst or aoe dps class. Not 10-15%. Also, the changes as they are were easy mode. You could basically program your mouse to do a 4100 dummy parse.

Josef Tauser

Honestly, melee force users should be more powerful than other classes at close range. Have you seen Star Wars movies ? Lightsabers have a tendency to chop stuff up ; )

Brian

seriously sin’s shouldnt be touched at all, i think the last major update to them dps wise was in 2.3? or something and that was only for maddness

Telanis

Infiltration/Deception still needs a buff to catch up

Brian

exactly

Enigmaul

There was a discussion about this in the 2.8 notes yesterday. I made a suggestion about Shock reworks. Basically Shock applies stacks on an internal cd that deal bonus damage when triggered by the next lightning abilities. Corrects sustain in PvE without breaking burst in PvP.

RabidCoqui

Everyone likes to feel powerful so no one likes nerfs to their class, but power creep can be arguably worse. They need to make classes somewhat equal even if it means some get nerfed and some get buffed in order to achieve that.

Ata’lan@Enclave@Jarkai Sword

Well, Sents have been nerfed to the ground since. 1.0. … I think they will nerf Sent DMG and Survivability again, so even the few players remaining quit the class and abandon the game. Bye reasonable Watchman Buff, Hello Remove of all Def CDs and -50% Damage on Masterstrike-.- Seriously, Sents got worst survivability of any class or best CD is a -25% DMG Reduction (Yellow Dmg) and 50% Evasion(White Damage only!) for 12s on a 3min CD oh and Rebuke 20% Reduction on NON DOT DMG for 4-20s on 1min CD oh and GBTF a Selfkill after 3s immunity 1s gets lost through an animation bug……I would take that Focused Defense even if it only were 6s or even that 10s selfstung with 10s of immunity afterwards. Or just give aus reasonable CDs on our 3 Def Abilities. Ah but Bioware hates Sents since they don´t play them themselves, a melee with the worst Def CDs and no Stealth. Well go on buff those Turrets and Stealthers again, those people still can´t play and will call for nerf Sents buff me. Seriously Sents/Maras called for you to remove that flat CD stuff from the PTS and just put a 100% on Merciless….yes Sents calle for a selfnerf so be so nice and listen to the ONLY reasonable Classcommunity in this game. Plus we are the smallest group of players, and going by ranked leaderboards the weakest in pvp. How about giving us something complicated to use, maybe Kelsaras Heal to Damage Debuff instead of Crippling throw? Or a Self Purge on Force Cammo? Or maybe make rebuke a real reflect absorbs 20% throwing those 20% back on target? Not all but some stuff, oh well I see the Dumb player crowd aka no Sent MAIN or ONLY Char players jumping in.-.-

lulz

all i see is whining? Sent/Mara have good cd’s. Think of a merc. They have a energy shield n kolto overload (which is used for an emergency). OH. if they go into arsenal/gunnery you can choose to go into Decoy. Which i only use for NiM Brontes for the orbs to just eat them. Sent’s are not the lowest survivability.

Right now who knows what their plan is on who gets what buffs/nerfs. For all we know they will keep it the same and look into buffing tanks for threat increase.

Hugo A Sanchez

those cooldowns are crap in pvp lol

Telanis

Hahaha you’re a joke. Sents have great CDs and I love playing mine.

Sciclex

Quit Swtor Pls. That is all.

Enigmaul

Marauder main here, sure melee get lots of hate (mechanically) from SWTOR, but at the same time, in most decent groups only a well geared, well played mercenary can outparse me in dotsmash, and other fights (ie, Nefra) where I switch to annihilation, I’m topping the charts. Sure our CDs aren’t idea (long reset times), but its offset by heavy dps, assuming you can actually play the class. Any half decent player can push a marauder dummy parse well over 3k in just underworld and arkanian gear.
As for PvP, it isn’t the class suffering, its the entire system. EA pushed for a PvP system that favours stealthers, and ranged dps. Tough luck for melee.
As much as you understand reading numbers and how abilities work, I am confident in my current tier experience (10/10 HM Dread ops, looking at NiM) if you’re having struggles with a marauder, you’re either standing in fire or don’t know how to min/max your spec.

OilSpill

Why does PVP system favour stealthers?

Josef Tauser

Most warzones are node-based; stealth offers you more options to defend or attack.

Areneth

All warzones are node-based…
This game needs clear deathmatch (not arena) in rotation…

Josef Tauser

8v8 deathmatch wouldn’t be very fun I think since the team with more healers would almost always dominate. At least in arenas the system usually balances out the teams. What don’t you like arena deathmatch ?

Enigmaul

Warzone nodes is exactly the answer, as well as the fact assassins and operatives are afforded more soft and hard cc than other classes via stuns, saps, etc. The only real counter to flushing out a stealther is dropping aoe and hoping it hits someone. I’ve wasted enemy resources in manpower by stealth-kiting and sapping 3 gunslingers and commandos at grass in Civil War, allowing my team to outnumber other objectives.

Guest

Nulln is a noob

Vallenrod

how can they be too strong? I think the Dev.Team should try doing DF and DP on hard mode in verpine gear and see how it goes. Teams that have oriconian gear are also struggling sometimes with enrage times of certain bosses. It’d also be nice to note that on weaker machines, the game doesn’t run so smoothly as it does on high end ones, which makes playing well even more difficult. It’d also be nice to fix several issues with targetting before nerfing the buffs.

jozopucik

Well, I don’t to be honest the game is like end 2011, so your machine would have to be pretty old for the game to run slow. Computers these days should be upgraded after like 1-2 years (heck even after 6 months you have better stuff already). As for DP/DF even with full Oriconian (no set bonus) and without the better mods and enhancements from Dread Forged gear the ops are easy. Most guilds have been oneshooting bosses and only gearing up since end of last year. If your dps or healing is not enough in Oriconian gear then you should probably work on your rotations and tactics.

Josef Tauser

Umm SWTOR runs better on older machines. Look at the Visual C and Direct X libraries it needs; all are old versions.

Amodin

You can thank the crappy choice of using a crappy, old engine for the game.

Tachibana

Well, Oriconian gear is piece of crap tbh, too much endurance. Same goes for verpines. But doing DF and DP hm in Underworlds is possible and not that hard, probably same goes for oriconians (dont know, never used them). Imo if u struggle with DF and DP then its not class or gear issue but yours.
I reccomend crafting better enchancments for your oriconian gear, belive me, u will notoice the difference in dps/heals/sustain when u swap all 7 enchancements implants and earpiece.
Btw, my guildmate states that (for tank at least) oriconian gear has similar ammount of defensive stats that Arkanian gear, just more endurance. I leave conclusions to u.

jozopucik

I main a sentinel and am Focus. It was bad for the to nerf the Force Sweep, was a really good thing. Overall I am satisfied with the class, yes I do get killed, but only by being swarmed by at least 2 sins from stealth and still I can keep them busy with my stun, grenade, statis until help arrives. Yes, there are classes which go down harder like Juggernauts, Mercs because of good cooldowns, faster moving, heavy armor etc, but that is how the game is you just have to experience it, learn, even level the other classes so that you know what they can to be able to counter it that’s all.

Trogdor

I just hate the changes to Sweep/smash (It’s clunkier to use now) and the changes to XS freighter flyby/orbital strike (the damage is pathetic now and in no way reflects the awesome animation)

zenight

On Orbital Hug, I have asked in many OPs and the general concensus is that it’s best use now is to fake using it on a raid boss to get the tank to start the fight already…

Orbital Tickle

Its damage is indeed shit, but with its 10 energy cost its still useful.
For example for precasting, if u have a short break during fight and know where add will spawn u can do some dmg to them before they do so.
Also for mm sniper, with its 1.5s cast its sometimes good to cast it instead of 1 followtrough, if u know it will hit 2+ mobs with all 3 strikes.
But yeah, most of a time its useless.

FriezaReturns00001

Just return Spike and Smash to the way it was before. e-e

Khadan

This is why my main is a tank. They should just come out with a schedule and each adv class will have their own uber-month. That way we can stop hearing about “don’t nerf me / my class is the lowest”. <— sarcasm

zenight

Actually a lot of Under powered classes need better sustain or mobility, not more raw dps.
PT need the charge to be a standard ability, nottank spec only. A melee class with no leap/roll is not gonna do well no matter how much damage it does.
Sins need sustain, not bigger numbers. Shock needs a way to be refreshed and we the changes to smah we know it could be coded to work only for PvE.
Sorc healing is very strapped for ressources compared to the 2 other classes, you only run out of energy/over-heat if you play wrong or if your team sucks but you will run out of force eventually no matter well you do.
And so on…
Bigger numbers is just a stop gap meassure that will lead to FoTM builds, they need to address other issues in my opinion.

iceberg265

Force Speed + Phase Walk is at least on par with leap/roll if not situationally better.

zenight

Agreed, which is why I think PT should have a similar option, you get a charge only if specced for tank.
Even if they could put the same numbers as other melee classes in OPs, the fact they have to run from target to target would remain the bigger issue.
Every other class has a way to quickly get within range of a new target *except* the guys with jetpacks strapped to their backs…

Enigmaul

“Except the guys with jetpacks strapped to their backs”, could not agree more. Even with a little DPS buff I still won’t look at Advanced Prototype or Pyotech without at least a massive CD reduction and 50%+ boost to Hydraulic Overrides.
I have made comments in other posts about fixing Sin sustain DPS, but I’m happy with its current mobility.
What I don’t get is how a Corruption Sorcerer ever runs out of force. You can HoT yourself with Static Barrier and Resurgence, stand in Revivification, and pop Force Surge stacks for Consumption. I pop 1 stack for force after every Innervate, and I stay above 70% force constantly, unless something crazy happens for a moment.

zenight

Whenever I play my healer sorc, I have to check my force and do what you say, on my commando and scoundrel healers though? I can just heal without a care in the world and supplement my heals with dps.
On a sorc you have to activelly work to keep your force up and if you so much as try to do a pinch of dps you’re out of force.
It’s that difference that bothers me, sorcs/sages have to work on ressource management while the 2 other healer classes don’t.

JJ1989

Wierd I do more DPS on my SORC healer then all my other healers

tsunami2311

Wish BW would just Bite the damn bullet and make PVE formula for Damage and PVP formula damage and Stop fucking one over for the other cause of pvp whiners.

It rather easy to seperate the 2 if target =NPC then pve forumula is used if target= Human player = PVP formula.

Amodin

I don’t understand their line of thinking about this, only because they’ve done that before with swinging the nerf bat. Now, they are growing a conscience about it? After all of the swings with said bat?

Tone Verdun

This is real easy to fix without nerfing damage for any class, put a straight damage modifier for all classes to include healing across the board for PvP and leave the modifier alone for PvE. I don’t unnderstand why it’s so hard for them to use common sense when they try to balance out damage for classes (Just make all their abilities “Even with primary stat augs” do the same damage across the baord.).

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