The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.

That is not a valid argument anyways. You don't do most of your testing on a live cable tv system. Not in this thread, but in another one that I had seen, comments to this effect were rampant. Tivo does most of their testing before it is put out there. Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true. I grant you that Tivo would most likely have to make minor fixes as things rolled out and began to be used. However, most of those things should have been minor.

My argument was that it should have been in the product in the first place. Since it wasn't, how should they remedy? I gave up on a remedy, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there should have been one.

The S3 platform has an H.264 decoder. So they had the foresight to include the hardware required to do H.264. The problem is that cable companies did not actually deploy H.264 channels while the S3 platform was still being developed for. So TiVo never had a viable test platform for adding support. In fact H.264 channels didn't really start popping up in cable systems until early last year, and even now they're still pretty rare nationwide.

Had they added the feature back when the S3 was still being sold, without proper testing, and it turned out to have some unforeseen flaw then they would have been forced to go back now and fix it even though the platform has been dead for over 3 years. That's not a wise business strategy.

It's not like TiVo has no option for these channels. You can buy a Premiere or a Roamio and these channels will work fine. The fact that you feel entitled to a major upgrade on box that was discontinued over 3 years ago is ridiculous. If you want to access these channels then buy a new TiVo.

I'm sorry, but I simply do not buy this argument in any fashion. If the hardware is there, then development and testing is possible. The platform is not "dead". Tivo chose to change their licensing model (subscription) and there are plenty of those units out there.

Please don't assume I think that I should be "entitled to a major upgrade to a box that was discontinued over 3 years ago". I said nothing of the kind. However, I also did not say it was reasonable to simply abandon customers and tell them to "buy a new Tivo". And actually, if they provided a way to at least partially subsidize the "lifetime support" we've already paid for then I'd also be OK.

However, I simply do not in any possible way buy your justification for Tivo to behave this way.

Let me take this a bit further. I think it's this kind of after the fact acceptance of Tivo acting this way that continues to give them reason to treat customers differently than they should. The BOTTOM LINE for which there is ZERO DEBATE is that Tivo is a 3rd party, totally dependent on them staying aligned with the MSOs as far technology is concerned. Without them being aligned with the MSOs, Tivo is utterly, and totally dead. Zero value.

Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true.

It is true! I've been part of several early beta tests where core functionality was still broken. And before they let in people like me they do a lot of their testing in the wild using their employees. Bench tests only get you so far. Working in the video industry myself I can tell you that broadcasters rarely follow the specs. So you have to account for many, many, variations and the only reliable way to do that is to test in the wild.

Just look at what's going on over in the Roamio forum with the 6 tuners. There are tons of people who are having problems using more then 4 tuners because of minor variations in CableCARD and tuning adapter firmware. Even though I'm sure they designed the product exactly to spec.

The BOTTOM LINE for which there is ZERO DEBATE is that Tivo is a 3rd party, totally dependent on them staying aligned with the MSOs as far technology is concerned. Without them being aligned with the MSOs, Tivo is utterly, and totally dead. Zero value.

That's actually not true. Over the last few years TiVo has been shifting their business away from being a retail product to being an MSO supplier. They saw how difficult it was to be a 3rd party and how the MSOs could screw them over at any time (i.e. SDV) and decided the only way they were going to survive was to be on the inside.

At this point I think the retail portion is nothing more then something to keep them afloat until they can become a major MSO supplier. It also gives them a test platform for new technologies that the MSOs might be reluctant to implement on their own.

That's actually not true. Over the last few years TiVo has been shifting their business away from being a retail product to being an MSO supplier. They saw how difficult it was to be a 3rd party and how the MSOs could screw them over at any time (i.e. SDV) and decided the only way they were going to survive was to be on the inside.

At this point I think the retail portion is nothing more then something to keep them afloat until they can become a major MSO supplier. It also gives them a test platform for new technologies that the MSOs might be reluctant to implement on their own.

The Roamio may very well be the last retail DVR TiVo ever sells.

Actually, Dan - you just made my point. Tivo is utterly and totally dependent on the MSOs. Either they become a supplier to the MSO, or they are a 3rd party retailer. In either case, they are 3rd party and cannot survive without the MSOs.

In particular, as more and more "cut the cord" and move to streaming capabilities, Tivo is far from a leader in that case. So, it behooves Tivo to protect the subscription base. Beyond that, if they have decided to simply become a major MSO provider and the Roamio is the last retail DVR (which would also not surprise me), then everything is changed. It makes the entire "lifetime subscription" value debatable, support is debatable, etc.

BTW, I would not criticize Tivo for doing this. I've said for years that their only real opportunity for growth is to sell their tech directly to the MSOs. Between the increased competition from MSO DVRs, and the increasing amount of content via streaming, Tivo is not in a good place, and their value proposition continues to become more and more problematic.

It is true! I've been part of several early beta tests where core functionality was still broken. And before they let in people like me they do a lot of their testing in the wild using their employees. Bench tests only get you so far. Working in the video industry myself I can tell you that broadcasters rarely follow the specs. So you have to account for many, many, variations and the only reliable way to do that is to test in the wild.

Just look at what's going on over in the Roamio forum with the 6 tuners. There are tons of people who are having problems using more then 4 tuners because of minor variations in CableCARD and tuning adapter firmware. Even though I'm sure they designed the product exactly to spec.

Dan, again we disagree. Tivo has the ability to test against the major MSOs. They "choose" to not invest in such capabilities. I'm not suggesting that they should or should not. Only that they DO have the capability. Tivo is actually in a good position in terms of their ability to manage change - if they elected to do so. So much of their ecosystem is totally within their control it's amazing. I get so ticked off when people make arguments like "well, you have to reboot your pc sometimes" as an explanation as to why Tivos reboot, lock up, etc. That's BS. Total BS. There are VERY few variables outside of Tivos ability to control in terms of environmental factors. Tivo totally controls the UI, and ALL applications. Users do not have (without hacking) the ability to in any possible way modify a single byte of Tivo software. None. We can't add apps. We can't change apps. We can't install 3rd party apps. Certainly there are other factors, such as cablecard implementation (by MSO), signal strength, etc - but that's about it. And all of those "could" be tested - easily. I think you know that.

Verizon's long-stated plan since inception was to go IP. h.264 over QAM is a stopgap plan that only materialized in the last couple years. Fios might not work at all with any Tivo anymore right about now if not for their change of plans. So from another perspective, one might be glad that they can still get 95% of the available programming and not have a total paperweight, less they change providers.

Verizon themselves have been walking on eggshells to make sure only the lowest-traffic channels get transitioned over. They're all either in special packages, 2nd and 3rd tier premium channels, or otherwise (subjectively speaking) crappy channels only on the highest paying tier of service.

It would be nice if Tivo did an update. Certainly nobody would complain. But they can do the math and see how many people this impacts in real terms and how much they REALLY miss that low-traffic content.

I'm very happy Verizon changed their plans. I read about it years ago and back then I had figured by now I would have had to switch to Comcast to continue using my TiVos.

I'm very happy Verizon changed their plans. I read about it years ago and back then I had figured by now I would have had to switch to Comcast to continue using my TiVos.

You and me both. That Media Server coming out might be a very different beast otherwise, and the party would be over for everyone.

And the IPTV plan predates even the Tivo HD. So this debate swings both ways. Since Verizon's actual plan of IPTV was known, why get a Tivo HD when it ran the risk of bricking? Heck, I remember being concerned about buying a Premiere because the IPTV transition was increasingly looming and talked about. Risk was built-in from the start. We ALL got lucky that they changed direction and just about the only loss to date has been the least-watched channels on the older hardware.

Dan, again we disagree. Tivo has the ability to test against the major MSOs. They "choose" to not invest in such capabilities. I'm not suggesting that they should or should not. Only that they DO have the capability. Tivo is actually in a good position in terms of their ability to manage change - if they elected to do so. So much of their ecosystem is totally within their control it's amazing. I get so ticked off when people make arguments like "well, you have to reboot your pc sometimes" as an explanation as to why Tivos reboot, lock up, etc. That's BS. Total BS. There are VERY few variables outside of Tivos ability to control in terms of environmental factors. Tivo totally controls the UI, and ALL applications. Users do not have (without hacking) the ability to in any possible way modify a single byte of Tivo software. None. We can't add apps. We can't change apps. We can't install 3rd party apps. Certainly there are other factors, such as cablecard implementation (by MSO), signal strength, etc - but that's about it. And all of those "could" be tested - easily. I think you know that.

My point was that 3 years ago when they stopped development for the S3 platform there were no MSOs using H.264 so there was nothing to test against even if they wanted to. They could have tested against the spec and thrown the code into the product in hopes that it would work when/if the MSOs decided to switch to H.264. However if they had done that and there was a problem people would expect them to fix it and they'd be worse off then they are now. At least now they can just say the S3 platform does not support H.264. If they had a broken implementation then they'd have to fix it or deal with constant support complaints from people who were having issues.

That is not a valid argument anyways. You don't do most of your testing on a live cable tv system. Not in this thread, but in another one that I had seen, comments to this effect were rampant. Tivo does most of their testing before it is put out there. Other threads suggested that the majority of their testing was done in beta test type rollouts. That is not true. I grant you that Tivo would most likely have to make minor fixes as things rolled out and began to be used. However, most of those things should have been minor.

My argument was that it should have been in the product in the first place. Since it wasn't, how should they remedy? I gave up on a remedy, but that doesn't mean that I don't think there should have been one.

You do most of your testing in-house, but should do quite a bit of it on live systems. Otherwise, some unexpected problems could happen after you launch and you could be in big trouble. Tivo never promised H.264 support, and rightfully so.

It's also obvious Tivo doesn't do ANY real testing on live systems, and are perfectly happy to let the early adopters be beta testers. See the Roamio threads about 6 tuners and HBO/Cinemax not working properly. How could they possibly miss that? All they had to do was use older CableCards and they couldn't even bother to do that. Unless they planned on using their customers' anger and frustration as leverage to get the other companies to fix their problems....

Finally, if it should have been in the product, but it wasn't, and was never promised, AND YOU BOUGHT IT ANYWAY, whose fault is that? All yours, I'm afraid.

It's also obvious Tivo doesn't do ANY real testing on live systems, and are perfectly happy to let the early adopters be beta testers. See the Roamio threads about 6 tuners and HBO/Cinemax not working properly. How could they possibly miss that? All they had to do was use older CableCards and they couldn't even bother to do that.

Do you realize what you're asking for? Cablecards are tied to particular head-end software, with proprietary software on both ends. You're asking TiVo to duplicate hundreds of different set-ups, all proprietary, in house, in order to test older cards. That sounds impossible to me, not just something "they couldn't even bother to do".

I realize the whole principle of the thing being debated, but does anybody regularly watch the channels that are now mpeg4?

I find it not a coincidence that the channels on the list that I receive have not been converted. I take this to mean that FIOS is only converting the least watched channels. Far be it for me to dictate anybody's taste, but in the scheme of things it seems a relatively minute annoyance.

FIOS needs to convert to MPEG4 so they can distribute more channels. I think this is a good thing even if eventually I lost a few channels. Now obviously it would not be good for me if I lost all the HD channels. Perhaps I should look at selling my TiVoHD. I wonder what I could get for it. It has a lifetime subscription and an upgraded HD. I think I upgraded to 1 TB.

Mr. Unnatural......They did NOt do their obligation. Mpeg4 came out well within the 3yr obligation for support. and Tivo chose not to update their systems, even though the HARDWARE could support h.264 (and does for netflix, etc). That forced obsolescence of the product.

Back in 2010, everyone knew cable companies were going to H.265 to save space on the cable. It wasn't 'out of the blue'

Welcome to the world of Tivo. You buy a Tivo and you're locked into whatever capabilities the box has to offer. If something new comes along the the current model can't handle or they're unable to fix it with a software upgrade, you may or may not see it in the next model they release. It's one of the reasons I switched to using a HTPC as my DVR and dumped Tivo. I'm on FIOS and don't have any issues with mpeg4 since the transition was seamless for me. I already had the codecs installed for mpeg4 playback.

Welcome to the world of Tivo. You buy a Tivo and you're locked into whatever capabilities the box has to offer. If something new comes along the the current model can't handle or they're unable to fix it with a software upgrade, you may or may not see it in the next model they release. It's one of the reasons I switched to using a HTPC as my DVR and dumped Tivo. I'm on FIOS and don't have any issues with mpeg4 since the transition was seamless for me. I already had the codecs installed for mpeg4 playback.

That wouldn't have been the case if you were using Windows XP. MS did not support H.264 in the original DVR-MS format they used for MCE recordings. They didn't add support until they created the WTV format. The WTV format was sort of ported back to Vista, but was only fully supported in Win7. If you had been using XP then you would have been forced to do a Windows upgrade, which would have cost abut $150, to gain the ability to record H.264. MS essentially did the same thin as TiVo. There was no technical limitation preventing them from porting the WTV format back to XP, but they chose not to because XP had been discontinued and it was not in their interest to do so.

I had been using Windows XP with BeyondTV as my DVR until the Ceton InfiniTV4 cablecard tuner was released. I had to make the switch in order to use it, so it's a moot point in that regard. If you wanted to use a cablecard tuner on a PC and you didn't have one of the turnkey setups that used the ATI tuner with the 2005 XP Media Center Edition, you had no choice but to upgrade to Windows 7.

I'm not sure where you get the $150 price tag for a Windows 7 upgrade unless you're going with one of the more advanced versions, which is overkill for a HTPC. I pre-ordered a Windows 7 Pro upgrade for $99 prior to it being released. I later purchased a 3-pack of Windows Home Premium licenses for my other PCs for $125. A standalone upgrade license for Win 7 Home Premium is available for as low as $79. Retail is $99. A Win 7 Pro upgrade is $140.

Microsoft will stop supporting XP sometime next year, IIRC, so there's little reason to keep using it unless you have older PCs you want to keep in service.

As for the price... The upgrade price for Home Premium is $120 and for Pro it's $200. I was going from memory so I was a little off.

Even so the point stands. If you had been using XP you would have had to upgrade to get H.264 support because MS made a business decision not to back port WTV support to XP because it was obsolete. Same thing applies to the S3 TiVo. H.264 broadcasting didn't come along until after the S3 was obsolete.

And for those that say TiVo should offer a discount on service because of this... They do! The S3 TiVos only cost $12.95/$9.95 a month. The S4/S5 units cost $14.95/$12.95. Also back when S3 units were being sold lifetime was only $199/$299.

I haven't heard of one. However, there are now at least two or three Media Center front ends besides WMC that will work with the Ceton cards as long as your channels are copy freely. SageTV was one and Media Portal is another. I'm think MythTV may also work, but I'm not absolutely sure.

Do you realize what you're asking for? Cablecards are tied to particular head-end software, with proprietary software on both ends. You're asking TiVo to duplicate hundreds of different set-ups, all proprietary, in house, in order to test older cards. That sounds impossible to me, not just something "they couldn't even bother to do".

No, I'm asking them to do real live system beta testing in people's real houses. And it's not hundreds, but a sampling in major cable systems would have been nice. The software is proprietary but there don't appear to be a lot of variants -- that is, many cable systems are using the same exact software.

No, I'm asking them to do real live system beta testing in people's real houses. And it's not hundreds, but a sampling in major cable systems would have been nice. The software is proprietary but there don't appear to be a lot of variants -- that is, many cable systems are using the same exact software.

And how were they suppose to do that when there were no cable systems broadcasting in H.264 back when they stopped developing for the S3 platform? If you're talking about now then it's too late. The S3 platform has been obsolete for almost 3 years now. They are not going to start developing new software for it just because there a few people who can't tune a handful of H.264 channels. Had H.264 gone into broad deployment back when the S3 was the current platform then I'm sure they would have, but now it's to late.

No, I'm asking them to do real live system beta testing in people's real houses. And it's not hundreds, but a sampling in major cable systems would have been nice. The software is proprietary but there don't appear to be a lot of variants -- that is, many cable systems are using the same exact software.

I think I'm standing by my estimate of hundreds of variants. We're pretty much just seeing the cablecard variants with problems. Comcast has dozens of cablecard variants across the country. In addition, there's all the known differences in back-end problems we know about (eg, the Seattle and other market problems with Fox that are not cablecard related, and the earlier problems of Florida Cablevision systems that are different.) There's the tuning adapter hardware and software variants that cause problems. The amount of SDV channels a franchise has matters. Whether a franchise has any analog channels matters. Whether a franchise has h.264 channels matters. What the franchise does with local origination channels matters (I've had problems in the past with my franchise doing strange things with the audio.)

And then there's all variation in the home of a beta tester. Whether they are OTA or not; whether they have 4 or 6 tuners; what kind of network they have; whether they have premium channels; whether they have various internet source providers (Netflix, hulu plus, MLB network, etc); whether they have iOS tablets; whether they have network problems; whether they have too strong of an input signal; whether they have too weak of an input signal; what the "shape" of the signal is (the different shape of FIOS vs coaxial signals has caused TiVo problems in the past); whether they have kmttg or pyTiVo or TiVo Desktop; whether they have multiple TiVos and what kind of TiVos they have.

Hmm, I got carried away a bit. But I'm sure TiVo handles much more variability than I mention above. They obviously have a beta program with live testers since they are inviting people to it (and Dave Zatz has been reporting on it for months!) Could more problems have been found with a larger beta? Absolutely. But just the variants above would probably require thousands of beta testers to cover. That's prohibitive.

And how were they suppose to do that when there were no cable systems broadcasting in H.264 back when they stopped developing for the S3 platform? If you're talking about now then it's too late. The S3 platform has been obsolete for almost 3 years now. They are not going to start developing new software for it just because there a few people who can't tune a handful of H.264 channels. Had H.264 gone into broad deployment back when the S3 was the current platform then I'm sure they would have, but now it's to late.

That was the exact point I was trying to make. I think you misinterpreted my previous posts. Just like how the S3s can't support M-cards -- the M-cards came out after the S3 was released and it turns out there's an incompatibility. Even if the spec. is complete, there's always gray areas or flat out bugs that can give you problems unless you beta test first.

I think I'm standing by my estimate of hundreds of variants. We're pretty much just seeing the cablecard variants with problems. Comcast has dozens of cablecard variants across the country. In addition, there's all the known differences in back-end problems we know about (eg, the Seattle and other market problems with Fox that are not cablecard related, and the earlier problems of Florida Cablevision systems that are different.) There's the tuning adapter hardware and software variants that cause problems. The amount of SDV channels a franchise has matters. Whether a franchise has any analog channels matters. Whether a franchise has h.264 channels matters. What the franchise does with local origination channels matters (I've had problems in the past with my franchise doing strange things with the audio.)

And then there's all variation in the home of a beta tester. Whether they are OTA or not; whether they have 4 or 6 tuners; what kind of network they have; whether they have premium channels; whether they have various internet source providers (Netflix, hulu plus, MLB network, etc); whether they have iOS tablets; whether they have network problems; whether they have too strong of an input signal; whether they have too weak of an input signal; what the "shape" of the signal is (the different shape of FIOS vs coaxial signals has caused TiVo problems in the past); whether they have kmttg or pyTiVo or TiVo Desktop; whether they have multiple TiVos and what kind of TiVos they have.

Hmm, I got carried away a bit. But I'm sure TiVo handles much more variability than I mention above. They obviously have a beta program with live testers since they are inviting people to it (and Dave Zatz has been reporting on it for months!) Could more problems have been found with a larger beta? Absolutely. But just the variants above would probably require thousands of beta testers to cover. That's prohibitive.

But most of these bugs were easy to catch. You wouldn't need a huge sample to catch them. Cisco even has release notes that say that only the latest version of CableCard firmware supported all six tuners, which should have thrown up red flags.

I'll agree the Seatlle bug is a fluke, and there is no real way to catch that one. But ALL Cisco/CableVision customers were affected. And ALL FIOS customers had issues with HBO/Cinemax, which are the only channels that have copy protection on them. These aren't small MSOs here.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, this shows how Tivo might have problems supporting H.264 in the S3s. There is enough difficulty supporting the latest stuff, never mind trying to guess how the future stuff might get implemented by the MSOs.

Tivo is only allowed to count a lifetime subscription for 66 months. Many lifetime Tivo HDs can no longer be shown as a source of revenue for accounting purposes. I certainly would not expect Tivo to support a lifetime tivo older than 66 months. Maybe they could offer a month or two of free netflix or some free amazon downloads as compensation for the lifetime users newer than 66 months or a reduced subscription rate for monthly subscription customers.

That was the exact point I was trying to make. I think you misinterpreted my previous posts. Just like how the S3s can't support M-cards -- the M-cards came out after the S3 was released and it turns out there's an incompatibility. Even if the spec. is complete, there's always gray areas or flat out bugs that can give you problems unless you beta test first.

There wasn't an incompatibility. Tivo chose not to update the S3 to use M-Cards. They were phasing out the original S3 and it wasn't worth the effort. TivoPony explained it a few years back.

Tivo is only allowed to count a lifetime subscription for 66 months. Many lifetime Tivo HDs can no longer be shown as a source of revenue for accounting purposes. I certainly would not expect Tivo to support a lifetime tivo older than 66 months. Maybe they could offer a month or two of free netflix or some free amazon downloads as compensation for the lifetime users newer than 66 months or a reduced subscription rate for monthly subscription customers.

How they count a lifetime Tivo for accounting reasons should have no bearing on support for the platform. That is a risk Tivo takes in offering that option. They updated the S3 for H.264 at some point (Australia?) and decided not to make that available to the US market. If they had never supported H.264 on the S3 platform or it didn't have the capability to recieve mpeg4, it would be reasonable. Viewing all channels you receive is fundamental to the platform (unlike the s/card vs. m/card debate).

It has little impact on me (I'll watch mpeg4 on my Roamio) but moves like that ultimately tarnish their reputation and ultimately lower what people are willing to pay for their products. I assume they will take any minor hit in their reputation as a cost of doing business.

I wonder how many of the original S3's and HD's are still out there? (I have one of each I'm phasing out with roamio's)

They had the potential to do more harm then good. So why would they bother if it was going to open up a huge can of worms?

I didn't really address whether they should have added m-card support or not. I just said it wasn't a technical limitation. It was a choice they made.

Whenever you make software modifications you have the potential to do more harm than good. Their decision may have been based on risk/reward but my guess is that it was most likely based on available resources. Tivo decided adding m-card support wasn't worth the investment in people/money/time for the small customer base they had.