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Topic: The $500 dollar challenge (Read 10686 times)

zopi, First, you take a natural variance of cell sizes and make them use one size only, as in sc, then you take a naturally vertical elongated hive like a hollow tree and make them work horizontally in a TBH.

Bjorn--how about you try the proposed methods in your own beeyard and see where it takes you? Or, have you already done so? No treatments, no sugar, natural or small-cell comb?

Maybe I should make this clear to those who have not previously heard my rants and diatribes on this matter. :-D

I have had smallcell for about 7 years. Early on I had questions about it. I heard many claims, including the idea that smallcell was even AFB resistant. I read many confusing statements like some I mentioned earlier in this post, where smallcell success was attributed to genetics and environmental conditions. I did not see differences in my bees between smallcell and other comb the first year or two. I was told it takes 3 years for full regression among other things.

I started speaking out about smallcell about 5 years ago. I just saw many hives thrive, regardless of on smallcell or not. I continued to play around with smallcell. I found out that after full regression, bees will not stay regressed if given foundationless frames. I listened as smallcell was called natural, that if you put your bees on smallcell all your mite worries go away, and a host of other things.

I waited for research. Then a couple years ago, they started being completed. But the researchers were made out to be idiots, and excuses were wildly thrown about by the smallcell groupies. They did this wrong, they did that wrong. The bees were not isolated. The bees failed due to "leveling out". First it was the claim that mites were suppressed. Then when the mite counts came back the same, a new claim was made suggesting although the mites were the same, the smallcell hives produced more bees. It is almost as if one reason is latched onto till debunked, then it magically transforms into something different.

We now have four independent studies from three different countries all debunking smallcell claims. Yet, one guys observation (Dennis) about taking smallcell and putting them back on large cell resulted in death. That unscientific tidbit is like the holy grail of smallcell. But four studies, with one including a huge proponent of smallcell, is cast aside as junk science.

So we are in about ten years now. And yet, not one group of smallcell beekeepers have ever actually run tested research. And they dismiss the research by respected professionals. No smallcell beekeepers have ever opened up their bee yards to testing, scrutiny, or unbiased evaluation.

So for ten years, we keep hearing, "The only way to prove this is to try it yourself". And in the past when others like me have done so and come out with results not in line with the agenda, it is because "I have an agenda" or "I did not know what I was doing".

I also had the pleasure of inspecting hives of other beekeepers with bees and queens from some of the biggest proponents of smallcell. And the comments and results from these other beekeepers were far short of what is claimed and often repeated on the forum.

So I started this thread to throw the ball back in the other court. Why are there no studies of smallcell by smallcell beekeepers? Of course all you get is "My proof is in my own apiary. You need to take me at my word, but please no testing or looking". Keep in mind, not one smallcell beekeeper is willing to sell a hive for research. Not one has opened his yard up for testing. Now we get the "My hive's are worth 50,000 dollars" excuse.

After ten years, while research was done, we get nothing from those actually promoting smallcell. And the problem is, there is always that next new group of beekeepers looking for the silver bullet, the easy fix. And that same message can be heard in many products. But this vinegar machine, spray that oil, build that hive, use that comb, go this meeting, buy this book, follow this protocol.....and all your worries go away.

It seems after 10 years, eventually someone needs to step up to the plate. We need to get beyond the whole "The best I can do is tell you to try it and see for yourself". I did. And I found out what others have also found out.

If I was to do any further testing, imagine what would be said at this point. They dismiss others with much more credibility and credentials than I have.

Dee and Ed Lusby worked with the Tucson bee lab for years. You can see some of the work they did with the lab on Beesource in the POV section. When the Lusby's regressed their bees in the 1990's, the lab sent someone out regularly to do mite counts. Eventually they stopped coming, saying it was not worth their while as they were not finding mites to count.

I went through all Dee's hives with her (~600 hives) a couple of years ago and saw one mite. One more showed up in one of the many photos I looked at when I got home.

Dee will tell you that small cell is one component of bee health. Making sure that the bees have clean honey and pollen to eat (no feeding with sugar, HFCS, pollen substitutes or supplements, avoiding agriculture and the associated pesticides and fungicides), proper breeding (locally acclimatized survivor stock, openly mated queens - no AI or bringing in complex hybridized queens), letting the queen have access to unlimited broodnest (no queen excluder, honey stored to the sides of all the boxes while the queen lays up the center gut of 5 or more deeps) and absolutely no treatments ("organic", "natural", essential oils, "soft" treatments, "hard" treatments, absolutely NO treatments) are equally important. If you spend any time on the organic beekeeping list on yahoo you will see her repeating these points over and over and over again. Just going to small cell without looking at these management practices won't get you very far as they are all integrated.

I went to work with her so I could see for myself what she was doing and what her bees look like. I've replicated as closely as I can what I saw her doing with her bees. Our climates and geographical locations are completely different but I am now seeing in my own bees (in multiple locations) what I saw in hers. It has taken me 10 years, several false starts and many losses to get to where I am now. I'm grateful to have a model of success (as I define it) to be able to learn from and am really excited to be experiencing the payoff of diligently applying what I've learned.

Nasal as Bjorn has pointed out this is about science, I am not sure how you see the relationship between a testable hypothesis like this and religion. Religion is a belief system generally based on how your parents raised you as a child i.e. catholic parents you most likely will be catholic, Hindu parents you most likely will be Hindu, etc. It has nothing to do with testing and deciding where the truth lies. Ever met anyone who came to religion by studying multiple faiths for many years and then deciding that one is the absolute truth? Religion gives the same arguments as sc. just join my church and you will see how happy you will be. Experiments can easily be designed to test any of the claims of sc.

Being a plant breeder by training, I think we are all going to find that it is the genetics of the populations that each group is working with and unrelated to the method. If a farmer plants a good corn hybrid it doesn't matter whether he plants it with a green tractor or a red one or if he uses dry fertilizer or liquid, the hybrid will still be good. During the time it takes to regress bees down, you are also not treating and thus selecting for improved mite resistance, etc. So you are confounding two different effects and cannot separate them. I would be willing to bet $500 that the success SC individuals are seeing is due to genetic selection and the size issue is just an uncorrelated effect.

Ramona that's super and i'm sure we all applaud your efforts. who knows, you and those like you, may be the last beekeepers someday. in the mean time, what you have done is probably beyond what most backyard beekeepers can do. the best most of us can do is take what you and others have done and adapt as much as we can into our own practices.

i don't have a problem with what anyone chooses to do in beekeeping. we all have to find our own way. i only have a problem with those who make their practices into a religion of beekeeping and berate those who do not worship at the same alter.

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Thank you, Ramona. That is a great post and confirms what Bjorn has said 100%.

I firmly believe if you follow Dee's instructions as you have, with only one small change, which is to use large cell rather than small cell, you will see exactly the same results. Many have said that if we had just let the mite ridden hives die during the 90's and not propped them up, we would have no mites. Ten years of doing just that has given you the results you now have. Good work, and as said, great post.

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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

Dee Lusby is in a highly Africanized area which are known to be resistant to mites. My guess is she has integrated some African alleles into her populations while selecting for gentleness. She has been asked on numerous occaisions to submit samples for genetic fingerprinting but to my knowledge never has. Unless she uses AI exlusively it would be almost impossible for her not to have had some stray young men visiting her young ladies.

i don't have a problem with what anyone chooses to do in beekeeping. we all have to find our own way. i only have a problem with those who make their practices into a religion of beekeeping and berate those who do not worship at the same alter.

Amen to that!! You mean like George Imarie? While I found some of his writings useful, I find his absolute attitude insufferable. Sure, he could produce more honey than I'll ever be able to, but I sure enjoy what I do and have no desire to have hives that produce more honey than they do now.

Don't do small cell myself, but if somebody tries it and it works for them, even if it is more because of practice and not the actual dimensions of a cell, who cares, its working. There's only...oh say about 45,679 different ways to care for one's bees.

I don't know about other beekeepers, but I've read about all the different methods, got excited about all of them, tried them all, and settled down to use what I found works best for me.

Small cell will never be "proven" but I'm sure it will continue to work great for some people for whatever reason.

First of all, when I stopped treating I lost all my bees for several years. If I got them to survive the winter they would crash and die in the spring and I would start over again. This is not a 10 year project of breeding through, it is a 10 year project of stopping treatments, repeatedly losing all my bees, getting some bees regressed and then beginning to keep the bees alive long enough that they could actually build up and become sustainable. Before regressing I couldn't get enough survivors to work with. After regressing when I lost bees I still had my small cell treatment free combs to use to build up the survivors and newly regressed packages more easily. (After regressing on Honey Super Cell, my bees draw foundationless comb...they draw small cell worker cells and bigger cells for drone rearing and honey storage. This is one point where I could not replicate Dee exactly as she has a large supply of untreated wax and makes her own foundation...I have not yet allocated resources to make my own small cell foundation. My worker bees that emerge from the foundationless combs continue to draw small worker cells.) I do know beekeepers who are treatment free and not small cell, however, I didn't have hundreds of hives to start with in the hopes that I would still have some survivors to work with. Regressing made the most sense to me when I looked at all the options.

Second thing. Dee has had her bees tested for AHB but the different testing locations couldn't agree as there was not a uniform database being used. Whether or not they are AHB is irrelevant to me as (#1) I was able to work with her bees without a problem (#2) They didn't act as I had heard AHB described. They didn't attack or cover me, they were huge colonies and big honey producers, not the small, swarmy, aggressive non-honey producing colonies you hear about when AHB is described and (#3) I DON"T live in an AHB area, my hives started with a mix of generic packages from Georgia, no special queens and some (non-AHB) small cell nucs with open mated queens yet my best hives now look very similar to what I saw when I worked with Dee and I DON"T HAVE A MITE PROBLEM.

What can I say? I'm happy I got this far and I'm confident others can, too, as I read many posts from others who are following this path and talk to some in person. What we have in common is paying attention to the importance of ALL the management practices I wrote about in my last post. Regressing seems to be key to the survival of our hives so that we can actually benefit from the post-regression buildup of our colonies. Many of us are are backyard beekeepers and we live all over the world with many different variables. Many posts concern management questions but mites are a non-issue.

Anyone is welcome to do whatever experiments they like to test whatever result they're looking for. As I said before, I don't have anything to prove to anyone other than myself. I put my resources on the line and am seeing the results.

I'm old enough now to understand that everything in life is both way more complex AND simultaneously way more simple than I can possible comprehend and at this point in my life I would never claim to know anything absolutely or tell another person there is only one way to do anything. All I can say is, this way seems to be working for me, makes sense to me and I'm getting results that make me really happy. There may be other ways but I have not experienced them. As this path seems to be working for many others as well, I am confident to recommend it.

I just saw many hives thrive, regardless of on smallcell or not. I continued to play around with smallcell. I found out that after full regression, bees will not stay regressed if given foundationless frames. I listened as smallcell was called natural, that if you put your bees on smallcell all your mite worries go away, and a host of other things.

What size will full regression bees make if give in foundationless frames?

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

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I just saw many hives thrive, regardless of on smallcell or not. I continued to play around with smallcell. I found out that after full regression, bees will not stay regressed if given foundationless frames. I listened as smallcell was called natural, that if you put your bees on smallcell all your mite worries go away, and a host of other things.

What size will full regression bees make if give in foundationless frames?

BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

That depends on the time of the year, flow, need of the bees, etc. You get a range of cells. You can put foundationless frames between two fully drawn 4.9 comb frames and they do not keep it the same size.

The techniques I'm trying haven't been my techniques long enough to really declare anything about them. I do listen to the advice given by experienced keepers, and compare it to the directions I wan to take. As an overall, I'm not going to split hairs about what 'natural' beekeeping is. A colony, as the cutout and retreival experts on this site will confirm, will set up housekeeping in any hollow cavity they find themselves preferring - people on this site have also spoken of swarms preferring empty topbar or langstroth hives. (Either I would consider natural based on the fact that a swarm chose it as residence with the lures of whatever scents taken into consideration) By my definition 'natural' would be to let the bees decide for themselves what size cells to put in the broodnest, and to limit interference as a keeper.

I wanted to also ask for a distinction on 'mite resistant' as compared to 'mite proof'.

Seems like one management practice mentioned, which I don't hear or read much about, is the notion of a brood nest up the center of 5 deeps...I wonder if this is a significant factor and how do you get the queen to do it? She typically doesn't move up into the honey frames, so I would imagine you need to do some brood and frame shuffling to get that to happen?

I think the unlimited broodnest concept is significant. I like to think of it in economic terms. Any business with lots of capital (workers, ready cash, etc.) is in a better position to take advantage of opportunities. Unlimited broodnest lets the bees build very large colonies, store a lot of food to overwinter and be available in case of dearth, and have resources for early spring buildup without artificial feeding.

Another thing I've been thinking about just in the last few weeks is how unlimited broodnest might help to prevent swarming. We hear that one factor in the swarming impulse is the dilution of queen pheremone in the hive when the hive gets too big. This makes sense if queen excluders are used and there are supers on. But with unlimited broodnest, the queen is traveling up and down the center gut and making more contact with the entire hive. I don't have any scientific studies to support this, just observation that our really big hives don't swarm and the idea of why they don't makes sense to me. Again, we have never had overwintered hives that we could build up to this point before we went to small cell.

Management includes adding a box when the bees have filled 8 frame or so, moving a few brood frames from the center of the box up into the empty box, consolidating the brood frames below and placing the undrawn frames from above on either sides of the broodnest (either small cell foundation or foundationless frames). I keep adding boxes as long as the bees are building up and using the space. If a hive is badly in need of space and I'm in a hurry, I'll just pop a new box on preferably one with at least some drawn comb.

Another thing about small cell that rarely gets mentioned is the density of brood per frame. Small cell frames have hundreds more bees per frame. (Sorry...will have to find exact numbers later...) If you multiply the numbers per brood frame x brood frames per box, that's a lot more bees per hive.

We will have survivor stock queens for sale this year but they will be $25 plus shipping. We're filling existing orders now but can add interested parties to the list. As I mentioned before, all the hives were started with "regular" bees. I think it is the management practices that have allowed them to build the way they have. I'm sure these queens will be just as good if not better than mass produced queens but I don't think the queens will perform "magic" if separated from the whole system of management practices that have gotten them to where they are now. Buyers beware!!!

Thanks for the response Ramona. That makes sense and is probably contrary to the way I have been managing my hives and maybe many others as well. I have been moving honey up and inserting emptys in the center to open up the brood nest. That is a management practice that I would like to try to incorporate into a few of my hives to see how they respond to it. Thanks again...and also to you BjornBee for opening this "can of worms"...it is an interesting discussion.

I'm not very experienced with top bar hives (I know some top bar hive beekeepers and have seen their hives but have not kept one myself). I'm also not sure how exactly the huge Langstroth hives I've worked (mine and others) would translate to top bar hives. Two things...(#1) If I wanted to run top bar hives I would try and find someone who has hives that (a) look the way I would want my hives to look and (b) are doing what I would want my hives to do and try and figure out their management practices. (#2) I would make sure that my top bar hives had the volume of at least 3 or 4 deep Langstroth boxes.

Some folks seem to really like the Warre hive which is top bars run vertically. Boxes are added from underneath instead of on top. I think there are contraptions for lifting the whole hive to get the new boxes underneath. I have never tried a Warre hive but do know of at least one ex-top bar person who is now doing Warre (have never seen their hives or apiary, just heard that they switched).

Re: Opening up the broodnest:

We tend to move honey frames to the side and brood frames up.

I don't generally like isolating frames of open brood. I will insert foundationless frames between brood frames if the hive is really crowded because the open foundationless frames don't separate the exisitng frames like a frame of foundation does. If I'm adding drawn combs or in the rare case foundation, I try and put those at the outsides of the broodnest. If the brood is capped, I'm less concerned about separating brood frames.