I agree with the foundations of "free software". If, someone wanted to do business, then they could sell services, similar to Red Hat. That is an option, not a commandment. I don't care if you want to travel the world offering free services to anyone wanting to use "free software". That is your prerogative.

Now a little about myself. Like Locsmif, I am an unemployed student. I did have a job, but when I started going to Univeristy, I quit so that I could focus on my studies. I have no one else supporting me, outside the family. My wife works, but only makes only enough to pay for our house, and feed our children. I am on welfare for assistance with medical needs, and child care.

Unlike other countries, in the United States, you have to pay for University out of your own pocket. Some might qualify for grants to pay for all or part of the cost, but not all. After one graduates, there is tremendous debt that the individual must pay back. Going to University is not paid for by public taxation. It will be paid for in the job I recieve after graduation. I went to University partially because United States employers want an piece of paper stateing that you have computer knowledge. I also chose to go to University to do something different. When I get my degree in business, at least I will have the knowledge of the "free software" community, and put that type of sharing into my business plan/model.

Claiming someone is Ignorant is not an attack. The meaning of ignorance is the lack of knowledge. And the ignorance I pointed out, It's my ignorance of what I speak.

If you truely hate business, and its foundations, go out and learn to be a business man, then you can make a rational decision.
"Know thy enemy" better than the enemy knows itself.

If the love keeps coming toward me, I will have to retalliate and love back.

1. talk about open source and free software as if they are the same in any way other than the core requirement that code be open and shared. If this question wasn't clear before, the recent linux kernel/linus diatribes against free software should have made that very clear. Here's Stallman explaining the differences in a way most people should be able to understand.
http://fsfe.org/en/fellows/ciaran/ciara ... the_answer

2. label either group as fundamentalists, or any other equally ridiculous and insulting term, which has pretty much nothing to do with the actual points or ethics that push people towards one or the other methods. Although to be fair to free software users and supporters, from what I can gather, it's almost always open source types who use this type of insult to avoid the actual core point of the discussion.

3. give incomplete and out of context definitions from websters, on things like fascism, which in the real world was a political system noted primarily for the hyper tight links between corporate and political interests, with a public veneer of various mythologies tacked ontop of it to help get public support.

Hint: if you are in school, stop doing that, pick up some books and read them. Maybe this is acceptable in business classes, I don't know, but you can't do that in real research of any type. Fascism is an especially interesting topic, there's a lot of very good books out there, the one by Daniel Guerin for example comes to mind as especially clear.

4. give ridiculous responses such as this:

Zitat:

I see the problem here, Ignorance.
Does anyone in here know what sheeple are?
These are people(the sheep) that don't really think for themselves, they just find someone that seems smarter and follow the leader (sheep herder or shepard). Puking the same message that the leader says. Just like religious fanatics.

5. get more and more ridiculous with every posting, until you show clearly that the way you first presented yourself has little or nothing to do with who you really are.

Anyway, since you are now showing who you really are, we can continue the thread.

Some ways I can think of to create some more revenue for Kanotix:
1. when you install kanotix for business users, who otherwise would need to pay MS, Adobe, etc licenses, plus antivirus subscriptions, donate some amount per install, whatever seems reasonable. I'll do that when it's appropriate. While this isn't a business model per se, it's how linux installs for businesses should be handled. No business is going to care about spending x per box when they already spend 10x or 100x per box for licensing fees for proprietary software.

As to Why Kanotix Was Created, I'd assume, like most cool projects, it was because Kano had some itch he wanted to scratch, and he started attracting some other guys who felt scratching that itch was a good idea in general.

And I'd also assume that of the core developers, there are many different, and sometimes even not particularly compatible, motivations for participating, but it doesn't really matter since the overall outcome makes any more trivial differences not particularly important.

Zitat:

If you truely hate business, and its foundations, go out and learn to be a business man, then you can make a rational decision.

That's a totally ridiculous thing to say, I'm sorry, you really seem dead set here on saying silly things. If I really hate corporations I should go out and look for corporate work? That's about as stupid as anything I've read recently, congratulations. In fact, the sensible thing for me to do if I really hate anything is to avoid it. Which is what I do as much as possible.

Are you saying that the only way you can make a rational decision is to become the thing you hate? So if say I hate Communists, I must become a communist? Or if I hate republicans in the USA, I must become a republican? Please make an effort to be at least slightly coherent, it really does make for much better reading.

And if the idea of actually having principles and acting on them is too alien a concept, it's not likely you'll be able to actually understand the difference between open source and free software, by the way.

Linus and most of the other major core 'open source' guys work for large enterprises, or for groups funded by large enterprises, so not unsurprisingly they tend to mirror the values of large enterprises. Which do, by the way, like Linux as long as it fits a business model they can understand and work within, which it does. Free software, on the other hand, does not necessarily fit any particular business model, but it does fit other models very well, some of which Cathbard alluded to.

The fact that these are not in fact financially oriented models, but more core, human ones such as sharing, community, etc, is what makes them so powerful, and so attractive to some people, who actually care about those kinds of values. And, far more important than just typing in or saying some words or other to that affect, do something about it, act, that is.

Since we're talking freedom here, caring about those values is a choice anyone is free to make. Despite what they like to pretend, I suspect that even most of the core kernel developers are also highly motivated by these values, only they just pretend that they don't get their energy from the kernel community and the sharing process.

Zitat:

If the attacks keep coming toward me, I will have to retalliate and attack back.

Actually, I suggest an alternate plan, which will have much better results: ask yourself why you are being attacked. Since it's easy to see why by just reading your weakly thought out arguments, consider rethinking your methods to achieve a more positive result, if that's something you are actually interested in doing. So far you are showing pretty much nothing, and aren't impressing anyone except maybe yourself.

To be fair, I asked the same question when I first started using kanotix, what is the business plan etc... it's a valid question to ask. But it's been answered in many ways very well, so no need to go there.

Zitat:

What I don't get, it seems some people do not want to share at all. It seems they want it all to be some secret society(cult) that keeps GNU to themselves, and not share with anyone.

I'm quoting more than I usually do, because I want it to be very clear that I am responding to your actual words, what you typed and then clicked submit to share with us.

Now this is a completely wrong thing. I encourage you to read the stallman transcript. Keeping in mind that he is refering to Free as in Freedom software here, GNU would love the world to use GNU software, make no mistakes about that, but not at the price of compromising the core GNU/FSF values.

The group that wants to keep software all to itself is proprietary, non free software, in fact, they put up really large barricades against anyone who wants to use it. Photoshop, for example, obviously has no interest in anyone using their product since they price it far out of most people's budgets. Same goes for Windows XP professional, which I believe retails for about $300 US.

And obviously, no proprietary software vendor has any interest at all in sharing their software with anyone. So you seem to be suffering under some very strong misperception or misunderstanding here. The foundation, the core, of free software, is in fact the freedom to share it. That is one of the four central points of the Free Software ideals. Freedom to share is Freedom 2 [starting 0, since FSF are also total geeks, and arrays etc start at 0, not 1] and is a part of the other freedoms as well.

Zitat:

* The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
* The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
* The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
* The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

As you can see, it's ALL ABOUT SHARING! The reason people spend time creating Free, as opposed to Open Source, software, is precisely so they can share it. That's the whole point.

Secondly, this is totally ridiculous on the face of it, like most of what you are typing and submitting [I encourage you to stop to think a bit next time, before you type in even more silly things].

Notice these forums, the irc support channel, the massive amount of work put into making this website even more informative and user friendly? The easy to use installer, the easy to run netcardconfig stuff, the kanotix control center?

All of these things were made to make Kanotix easier to use and more user friendly. Slam for instance is working on creating working office installs of kanotix. I just made my first office trial install of kanotix. I spend time putting together older boxes for my friends so they can use kanotix. Pretty much everyone involved, in fact, works to make kanotix more shareable than ever before. And GNU is working towards the same ends. So where do you see this? Obviously, if you want to say and do silly things, you aren't going to get a particularly good response, but that's unrelated to GNU or free or open source software. Especially here by the way. The trick is to not say or do silly things.

Gnu works on improving stuff all the time, but with one major requirement: they will not ever compromise their core values in order to make their stuff useable for someone who doesn't care about their core values. But they do work all the time on making their software run better and better, since most free software programmers are pretty passionate about their stuff being as good as it can be.

So who or what are you referring to? Are you having the experience of being rejected routinely by the distros you try? That's probably not the fault of the community judging by your increasingly polemical and nonsensical responses here.

Wow h2, that is the most intelligent argument yet so far. You backed everything you said and supplied ways to help out.

I was not aware that many did not like paralleling "free software" with Open Source. From what I had gathered throughout the net, they were interchangable.
Now I know

I did not call anyone here a fundimentalist, But there are fundamentalist out there (as in other places like religion, politics,etc). Evan Stallman has warned against those.

Also, I did not realise there was so much animosity against Linus. I don't know the man, so I don't know what to think of him.

As far as using Fascism out of context. I didn't believe I did take it out of context. Cathbard made a comment about Fascism. I assumed(incorrectly) Cathbard ment capitalism. I'm no expert on government.

As far as routinely being rejected? I have no idea what you mean, other than on another thread I said I quit talking in forums because of flaming. That was not flaming me, and these were old forums for computer hardware. It was so bad you would have to wade through pages of Intel vs. AMD flames just to read anything useful. It became so bad, most of the real GURU's left. That is to what I was referring. That was years ago.

Now I started this thread to get minds working. I wanted to encourage a deep thought about Kanotix, and because I was curious. In fact Chris's words were so good that others liked it enough to make it a sticky. I guess my question worked

Yes, I really do believe you can't really hate something without expriencing it a little first. Do you know why you hate Communism? I only know what the US government allowed the schools to teach me. Beyond that, I have read a little about Carl Marx. But since I have never had first hand experience in any other form of government, I cannot comment truthfully, only hearsay.

But back to experience. It takes experience to get understanding of the factors behind them. i.e. I dislike to be dipped in boiling oil. I have never done it. But I have been burned, so I can quantify that into boiling oil. I try not to hate, that is a very powerful word. I prefer to dislike something instead. So I guess, I just agreed with you. You are right about that, I incorrectly stated my own opinion.

I have actually used Windows since v.95, I can personally tell you that is has its many problems. But one thing I read alot on linux sites (not Forums, but webpages), is "are you tired of the Blue Screen Of Death(BSOD?" Well since I upgraded to XP, I haven't seen that. What problems did I have?
1)When Internet Explorer crashed, it took the desktop sometimes. Sometimes the crash would do nothing noticeable right away, but eventually just trying to navigate Windows became a pain. Then I had to reboot.
2)DRM...need I say more(I should be able to put my music where I want it, I paid for the right to hear it)(One good thing about MS here, they released a patch that treated the Sony DRM software as a virus, and removed it.)
3)When I would change the amount of memory, change or add a harddrive or DVD/CD-ROM, or other hardware, MS wanted me to re-activate. Aparently this can only be done a few times, then they require you to get a new license. (This was the final straw for me).
4)There are other small flaws, but the license...well you know.
5)The exuberent price that MS wants to charge for Vista, when it really hasn't FIXED anything yet, just eye candy and 3d desktop. (which is available on GNU/Linux now

Anyhow Thank YOU H2 for your excellent INTELLEGENT reply. And thanks to Chris for the great list of "why". And Thanks to Kano for Kanotix. And thanks to Locsmif for his reply above, I got a laugh out of it.

You can definitely make a business out of free/open source software, lots of people do it. And since there is no linux in existence, so called, that is not in fact GNU/Linux, that's the GNU package of tools etc, shell, Gnome desktop, the new Gnash plugin for flash non free play, etc, put ontop of the Linux kernel, which is technically all that Linux can properly refer to. GNU is the tools etc that runs on the kernel, and the kernel is linux. GNOME, KDE, etc, runs fine on for example FreeBSD. And KDE also runs I believe on OSX. So it's useful to be clear at some times, though using linux as shorthand for the whole set of packages is just going to happen no matter how hard people try to correct the habit.

the political stuff I'm not at all interested in discussing since it can't be reduced to soundbytes, and I've never knowingly convinced anyone who has strong contrary beliefs to change ideas or ideals. Just wanted to clarify the point though.

The sony drm thing was in fact not only a virus, it was the most virulent, dangerous, hard to remove kind of virus, a rootkit, which is why the MS stuff correctly tried to remove it. I'm happy to criticize MS for all the things they do wrong and bad and badly, but I try to avoid criticizing them for things they do right. And since those things aren't nearly as common as the things they do wrong, it works out fine.

DRM itself is a joke as far as I'm concerned, but not for the reason most people talk about: almost all so called drm'ed material is not in fact the original, it's a heavily compressed, crappy, low quality version of the original. So it becomes increasingly absurd to hear record companies talk about these relatively lofi compressed versions of origina hifi quality stuff as equal or equivalent. If I get 10 mp3s, wma, or whatever files of 10 songs from a CD, I do not own the music on the cd, I own a compressed version of that music. Same goes for i-tunes and all that crap. And, not only that, I am expected to pay the full CD price for something vastly inferior in terms of what it actually is.

I have never seen or downloaded any drm material, so I can't say much more, other than to note that I'd never use it. I will pay for a real CD, as long as I own it, and am free to use it as I see fit. But I will not pay for some compressed crap I can't even use the way I want.

One interesting thing though, I also was maintaining to myself the fiction about the long term stability of the NT system, Windows 2000, nt 5, xp is just consumer version, nt 5.1, and it was actually locsmif who quite correctly called me on that point once a long time ago.

My experience was in fact just like yours, Explorer would lock up the desktop, often forcing a reboot. Very rare to see the blue screen, but the lockups actually were not that rare. I just sort of pretended to myself that they didn't exist, and meant nothing overall.

Now that I've been using only Kanotix for almost a year, I'm beginning to see the error of that statement. In fact, most client support calls almost always involve this: ok, now, reboot. Ok, did you try to reboot? Have you restarted the computer? And that's with what I would consider an unusually stable and reliable NT desktop, virus free, spyware free, relatively. Of course, for average users, they will rarely experience that level of 'stability'.

But the gnu/linux desktop, now that's an actually stable system. I've only had to reboot a few times to fix issues, usually involving some new kernel or service, and many of those times I didn't actually need to reboot, I just didn't know any better.

The WGA stuff, now that's a big issue, it doesn't work, it catches legal installs and labels them illegal, while illegal stuff slips by as legal. Very iffy. Typical MS in fact, first versions of their stuff never works.

Business with open source is just what you make of it, lots of ways, some work, some fail, that's life I guess.

One thing you can say is that as a rule, open source models tend to heavily favor the people who actually work with it and maintain and service the stuff, and tends to not favor the large scale model of massive corporate monopolies etc.

Plus, there are a lot of assumptions made that actually are very non-valid, for example, if you understand from the ground up core networking, kernel, etc concepts, your time and energy tends to be worth more than some windows network admin drone who understands almost nothing. That's because you have better skills. And you got those skills doing the open source work. So the benefits aren't always immediately obvious.

For example, Andrew Morton just got hired by google, because he's a core kernel hacker, that's the main reason, second is that google runs and maintains their own custom google kernel to run all those 100's of thousands of google servers. So having a core kernel guy on staff is obviously a good idea.
http://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/2006080303126NWCYKN

The core thing though to understand is that some people don't want non free systems controlling their lives, that's free software. They can't do anything about many parts of their existence, but they can do something, and they do do something, about the parts they can control, such as creating free software.

Open source types tend to really be interersted in the code itself, they don't really care about anything else, they want more code to come to them during the open source project, while pretending that they aren't participating in a community formed by the vision of the original the gpl license. Most open source guys tend to just be engineers. That's why they get along with large enterprises. No vision. But good engineers. That is a good fit for a corporation, who just wants to solve some technical issue as efficiently as possible. That's also what open source guys want to do.

For some reason, which is hard for me to understand, they seem to take some kind of perverse pride in this lack of vision or ideals, as if that's actually something to admire.

If it wasn't for Linuses increasingly assinine comments and attitudes, there would actually be very little true disagreement between FSF and Linux kernel developers, imo it's almost all ego related, Linuses ego to be precise.

turbowsr, yeah it wasn't meant in a harsh way or anything, i was just clowning around. I guess one of the issues about Kanotix and business is that especially Kano would like to do business, and some of the other devs would like to as well, but i think all can agree that we want the prevailing modus operandi to be one that benefits the community as much as possible.
So, the difference is between doing business and acting business-like.

Secondly, i don't think anybody called you a fascist. I'm absolutely certain of that. Some comparisons were made to corporatism and fascism, because as citizens of this planet we have been victimized by globalization and totalitarianism at a rate that is accelerating exponentionally since 2001.
The reason we enjoy making that inflammatory comparison is because we are helpless and powerless to stop it, and scorning the oppressor makes us collectively feel better. See it as a form of therapy.

All that aside, i'm always broke two weeks before my paycheck comes in, so all i put into Kanotix is just effort for the love of it. Talking business cuts two ways:

(1) You don't want your favourite distro, that you contributed to, to sell out. That may be a slightly baseless fear, but it exists. Slh once quoted Walter Ulbricht as a warning: "No one has the intention of building a wall" (Original: "Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten.")
Which eventually was exactly what Ulbricht did.
(2) You don't want people like Kano to be unable to make a living out of Kanotix, and have to scrape together donations to be able to go on. So you start thinking: "What could be an honest way to make a living, without becoming that which we could not relate to when we were poor ourselves"

Think about that for a while. It presents both a practical and a moral dilemma. I have resigned myself firmly in my belief that i will be a servant of freedom, while others are willing to make concessions in that department. The lurking dragon in this argument is that you must adapt to an ideology stronger than your own, because there is "no escaping it". However my opponents (and i don't mean you) are evermore sure of their own beliefsystem and will never ever yield. Take a figure like George W Bush for example. Does he seem flexible? Will he one day stand up and say: (fake texan accent) "Hmm, those young bucks have a point. We should drop this neo-conservative Leo Straussian school of politics and rethink this whole deal." No he won't. Because it will take like say, 3 million bodybags before he changes his mind.

Well ok, by now you're ofcourse thinking "Where the hell is this nutcase going with this". I'm trying to convey a point, that sometimes it is important to keep going, and believe in yourself and your own convictions. Even though somebody might every once in a while say to you "Get with the program, you fool", i will not. I'd feel like a quitter, instead of a starter. Business still comes second place to my desire to do Good Things, and i'm proud of that. Concessions in that sense are just a slippery slope, which seldom allows you to turn back, before you already have obligations to people which you cannot ignore. I've been in that situation, and believe me, it made me feel like a whore. And nothing is worse for a man like me, of extreme machismo

So, turbowsr, it's alright to talk business in my opinion, but the core beliefsystem of this project is (i hope) that we are seeking freedom. Freedom to put a wifi card in monitor mode, for example, or the freedom to rip a video stream, or to completely alter the kernel. Freedom to reprogram chips in a way that is completely not allowed by the manufacturer. Freedom to say "Bye Bye" to a TCPA chip and install whatever the fuck we want on an x86 machine. We feel like hackers, and the only crime of a hacker is that of curiosity. Sometimes this mixes well with business, sometimes this does not. The google guys made it bigtime, but we now see them more and more violating their own company policy ("Don't be evil"). So again, business talk is fine, but consider the moral dilemmas some of the people in this community face when they do, and the roots they feel awkward betraying.

Cheers, Locsmif

turbowsr

Titel:Verfasst am: 12.10.2006, 02:33 Uhr

Anmeldung: 20. Sep 2006
Beiträge: 63

Thank you, finally, a good conversation. I don't believe it is all the way I come across, but the way others appear to come across to me. Both are at fault, I'll take my blame.

Well if you were around a group of co-workers, you are partially responsible for a revolution of software, and in conversation with these co-worker (mostly them be slightly jealous, etc), you(well Linus) start to wonder if you made a mistake, if you could have been the next Bill Gates. (those surrounding him only feeding the ego)

I can not absolutly say I wouldn't do the same as he, but, hopefully, people see this "ego" and learn what not to do.

MP3's if done right, sound close to CD, but with iTunes, Napster, etc, you don't have a choice on quality. Just take whats available, or leave it I do have a napster account, I have an MP3 player, and I enjoy listening to music. Thats just me. The CD quality is excellent, and MP3 isn't as good, but is better than from tape (cassette or 8 trac(remember those)). I like MP3 mostly because I can listen to whom I want, when I want, without listening to crappy artist songs playing 4 times an hour. It's not that I don't like CD's, but I've bought too many that there is only one good song. Paid $15 for a CD for one good song! Wish I could send the album back to the band(the label and producer also) and request my money back. With Napster, I can pick and choose, all to my taste. (Kinda like GNU). But the bad...DRM, I cannot download the song to my player, then burn to cd and listen in any cd player. That is were GNU is the greatest thing to ever come about. I have never heard a single GNU programmer sue because someone used their software and made 1000's of copies. (unless someone did not follow the GPL in releasing their product.)

Oh, Windows "Did you reboot?", that is always my first response to a Win question. Here's a great story:
Several years ago, I was in the military. I was a machanic, and mostly worked on tracked vehicles. We had Howitzers. These are tanklike vehicles that have cannon's instead of small guns. Well they upgraded from the old manual load and aim system. The new system employed what was called a fast V. This tracked vehicle would "paint" a target with laser. The information would be transmitted via satelite to the new Howitzers. The new Howitzer would automatically aim, the crew would load it.
Well while on manuvers one summer, these new Howitzers would just stop working. The only way to get them mobile again was to unplug the computer (you can see where this is going). A buddy and I worked to figure out why. Then one day, one of the howitzers had the display hooked up and going, and, of course, needed rebooted. That is when we saw the startup screen "Welcome to Windows 4.0".

Who would have thought?

WGA? I am not sure what you mean. What is WGA?

I understand the GNU/Linux(operating system), linux is the kernel, stuff. I understand the GNU software. Why it was made and such. I just didn't know that "free software" should not be refered to as Open Source. I was ignorant of that fact, and now I know.

I have only rebooted Kanotix a few times. Mostly I was trying other LiveCD distro's. But a couple of times for problems.
Both times, I left Firefox (only happens in Firefox) open, with a few tabs open. Leaving it for several hours like this seemed to slow the system to a crawl, then if I start to do anything it would nearly stop, until Firefox would crash. Then all would be well again. Another time Cups crashed Firefox and Navigator. This one only happened on a certain website. Wasn't important, so I never investigated it. These things are very less agrivating than Windows crashing.

I did download RC4 for a friend to try out, he is also a longtime Windows user. Though he does not have the history in computers I have, so I will have to teach him things about GNU/Linux and things I learn here.

Great point Locsmif. This is the kind of conversation I was hoping to have. Not in this thread, but somewhere within the forum. (This thread should have ended with Chris's list, or continued with additions to the list.)

If you use session manager extensions, make sure to change the settings to not remember last session. Same for tab extensions, check very carefully that browser is set to remember only a limited number of last opened tabs.

If you use adblock, change to adblock plus after removing adblock.

These changes will fix most of the worst firerfox issues in most cases. If you use gtk2-engines-gtk-qt, remove it, purge it and never install it again.

WGA is Window Genuine Advantage. What the advantage is to me the end user I'm still trying to decipher, although I can easily see the advantage to Microsoft, so I think it was misnamed, should be: MSGA

that's the windows validation stuff that will kill the system if it's an install microsoft decides based on unknown factors is not legal. this is fairly random, some legal installs are declared illegal, and some illegal installs are considerd fine. In other words, it doesn't really work, but it will still shut down windows for you until you pay up.

Vista will be even more extreme in this regard, which to me is really great, it will pull in even more tech type people, you know the ones, the guys who would install a 'free' version of windows for their neighbors and friends. Now they'll be installing truely free software more and more rather than deal with the headaches.

It's not so much, by the way, that free and open source should or should not be refered to, it's that you understand that there is a very real, and fairly substantial, difference, between the two. Technically, all free software is open source, in terms of its source code by definition being open, and actually all gpl'ed open source software, more or less anyway, is in fact free software. So what, really, is the question? Someone will really have to get Linus to answer that one, since he's the one who keeps insisting on that fake division.

As far as I'm concerned, if software uses the GPL license, which the linux kernel does, GPL 2 in this case, then it's free software. So why Linus feels this need to pull away from admitting this is really not easy to understand unless you look at outside causes like ego, or not wanting to lose the potential code some corporation might or might not contribute at some point. This all comes down to 1 fairly trivial clause in the new GPL 3 which for some reason Linus thinks is really extreme, although to my eyes I simply cannot see why it's that big a deal to Linus.

It's not that Linus really is jealous of Bill Gates at all, in fact, in an interview, back when he wasn't being as silly as today, he said something very funny:

Q: Bill Gates takes some pride in being the chief software architect of Windows [this was before Vista became such a disaster, and before Bill decided to quit because it wasn't fun anymore]

A: Linus: If I was Bill I wouldn't take pride in that. [Suggesting that the thing to take pride in is actually good code, like the linux kernel. With the added implication that windows code is crap, so it's not something to be proud of.]

No, unfortunately, in this case I think it's far more petty, it's just Linus not wanting to deal with Stallman and the FSF. For pretty petty and annoying reasons imo. Might be some jealousy there, it's hard to say, Stallman I don't think is jealous of Linus in anyway, he just cares about freedom, period. And he doesn't like the open source attitude that compromise is fine as long as you get more code rolling in.

It can be hard to understand, primarily I think because the actual argument is profoundly illogical at heart.

Re drifting off topic: never let it be said that I will not happily drift as far off topic as the topic offers, lol....

Because a bunch of young enthusiastic people thought they could build upon and improve Knoppix-like live-cd technology, and their effort would earn respect amongst their peers and the public community?

Because a bunch of young enthusiastic people thought they could build upon and improve Knoppix-like live-cd technology, and their effort would earn respect amongst their peers and the public community?

You are quite thin skinned if you think I was attacking you Turbowsr. I never called you a fascist. I said that much of the western world is becoming fascist before our eyes and that the application of the business model to every aspect of our lives is at the core of the problem.
You are going to school to learn how to enter a world I rejected and ran away from kicking and screaming. We are bound to differ in attitudes but I was not attacking you. Read what I said more carefully, it was a statement about society in general, if you took it personally that is cause for reflection.
I'm afraid the Websters dictionary is a bit brief and doesn't really cut it. It is just a dictionary I guess. The wikipedia entry is a little better but you need more than that to to get the full story of how the marriage of corporatism to the state is used in centralising business control but I'm not going to give a lecture on the subject here.
I've seen the corporatisation of a government department from the inside, it's an ugly, ugly thing. The attitude shift from being a service to being a corporate is horrendous. I got tired of telling little old ladies to sod off because rich men get served first.
If you try to change the system from the inside something will change, and it isn't the system. I prefer to find a new system where possible. Thats where GNU comes in. May it ever stay out of the grasp of the corporate thugs.

But havng said that, stayed tuned.. i heard a rumour of a Kanotix shop! I hear there'll be tshirts and cd's and novelty condoms and somebody mentioned actual live penguins that have been genetically engineered to survive postage. But you never know with rumours.
There's room for small business I guess. It's just those corporate fascist greedy smumbag......... **mutter grumble*walks way** If you need me I'll be in the angry dome!!!

Because a bunch of young enthusiastic people thought they could build upon and improve Knoppix-like live-cd technology, and their effort would earn respect amongst their peers and the public community?

Another great post !

I agree. In fact Kanotix has earned this respect. Type Kanotix into any search engine and look. I have found only good reviews of it. So I believe what Kelmo said has been mostly acheived.

turbowsr

Titel: If it weren't for something, there would be nothing at all. Verfasst am: 12.10.2006, 14:05 Uhr

Anmeldung: 20. Sep 2006
Beiträge: 63

[quote="Cathbard"]

Zitat:

You are quite thin skinned if you think I was attacking you Turbowsr. I never called you a fascist. I said that
much of the western world is becoming fascist before our eyes and that the application of the business model to every aspect of our lives is at the core of the problem.

Then it was a misunderstanding. But from my point of view: I am from the western world, and a business major. So I inferred incorrectly.

But, I do agree that business from the United States are pressuring our government to pressure other governments to allow some form of capitalist system.

Most business has flooded the American market with crap we are tired of. We don't buy much more, so to increase their profits, big business goes overseas to sell their crap to everyone else.

Small business has the most potential to expand. A large corporation no longer has this ability, so to keep investors happy (sell them more stock,etc) the business must "acquisition" other business. Try to read 5 investment portfolio's from 5 different companies; the only difference is just the business name. It's really **censored**.

Zitat:

You are going to school to learn how to enter a world I rejected and ran away from kicking and screaming. We are bound to differ in attitudes but I was not attacking you.

But havng said that, stayed tuned.. i heard a rumour of a Kanotix shop! I hear there'll be tshirts and cd's and novelty condoms and somebody mentioned actual live penguins that have been genetically engineered to survive postage. But you never know with rumours.
There's room for small business I guess. It's just those corporate fascist greedy smumbag......... **mutter grumble*walks way** If you need me I'll be in the angry dome!!!

Maybe those new singing condems

Ok, maybe I just had a bad day/week. I know everyone can't always agree 100%. So I will agree to disagree in certain respects.

In business class, we have the chance to go across seas, next summer they are going to Germany, France, Italy, and a few others. I am not going this time. But in the future I do plan on going. We are there to learn about the cultures in those area's.

I get the distinct impression that this thread is helping someone with their University homework. Maybe something along the line of , "Compare and contrast the ... " It certainly is a lively discussion. There are far more ideas presented here than I think the OP could have come up with on their own. But maybe that is a good thing, the stress of the course load is fairly obvious, it could be time for professional help. Note: I do not mean to "attack" you turbowser, but my life experience is different from yours. For example, I built my own house, no business did it for me, however you are correct, I did have to purchase some materials from businesses. Some other things were bartered and sometimes, friends helped me just for friendship without expecting return. But, I live in a rural area where something like that is possible. Our world view is often shaped by our environment, both external and internal.

Shalom

turbowsr

Titel:Verfasst am: 13.10.2006, 19:56 Uhr

Anmeldung: 20. Sep 2006
Beiträge: 63

Tinker,

Zitat:

I get the distinct impression that this thread is helping someone with their University homework. Maybe something along the line of , "Compare and contrast the ... " It certainly is a lively discussion. There are far more ideas presented here than I think the OP could have come up with on their own. But maybe that is a good thing, the stress of the course load is fairly obvious, it could be time for professional help.

See, Tinker read this thread and thought "this thread is helping someone with their University homework". This only goes to show that there is mis-interpretation of opinions. Tinker has not been in this discussion, but pulled that idea from it. So it isn't so far fetched that I mis-interpreted information that others said.

Thanks Tinker, hopefully you helped prove a point.

Now as far as professional help....hmmmm......NO....

On with other points.
My house was hand built in the 1940's. I am in process of updating it myself. I live in a rural community, population ~10,000. The local population is quite small. But I have lived outside the cities most of my life, though I don't consider myself as a country boy.

NO this is not for homework. I am very curious by nature, so I asked about Kanotix creation for my own self interest. I have learned alot more than the question intended Partly, I asked the question because there are 1000's disrto's out there that are different in just one or two things, so I asked. There are many deminsions as to why I asked, none of them to do with my course work at all.

I think it is the point of veiw each of us have from our own culture that confused me. Even the culture within this forum. I am still learning, and hoping this matter is behind me and others.

Well turbowsr, my university training is in the very discipline that I suggested you seek help from, thus I have a basic trust that help can be available for those who seek it. In addition, my wife (now ex-wife), is still a registered therapist and I know she has effectively helped many people with both simple and complex issues. I hope to gently suggest something that I believe can help, I don't want to argue or patronise but I know it is advice that is usually met with denial and resistance.

I suppose my larger thoughts might be that this is the Internet, people come here for many reasons, sometimes their stated ones, sometimes altogether different ones. Further, people are not always as they represent themselves. You present as a married college student, taking a business degree and that very well may be true, however, I have no way to test it and no particular reason to trust you nor you to trust me. Mostly, in help forums, it doesn't matter and, as I said, this has been a lively and interesting discussion. But, you could just as easily be a fourteen year old with high functioning Asperger Syndrome who dropped out of school and thinks it clever and amusing to fool and goad a bunch of adults. For that matter, you could be an AI Bot, years ago I saw one that could almost keep up a conversation at the level of this thread and I expect there has been progress in the interim. Now, before you suggest I take my own advice, and seek help for paranoia, remember that I just mentioned possibilities. I haven't suggested that anyone is doing anything malicious and certainly not specifically to get at me. It's generally only someone with a very narrow view who can't see more than one possibility. That narrow a view can be limiting and lead one to think they have the answer for everyone. It seems to me there is far too much of that around in the world today. Perhaps that has always been so.

turbowsr

Titel:Verfasst am: 15.10.2006, 06:50 Uhr

Anmeldung: 20. Sep 2006
Beiträge: 63

[quote="tinker"]

Zitat:

Well turbowsr, my university training is in the very discipline that I suggested you seek help from, thus I have a basic trust that help can be available for those who seek it. In addition, my wife (now ex-wife), is still a registered therapist and I know she has effectively helped many people with both simple and complex issues. I hope to gently suggest something that I believe can help, I don't want to argue or patronise but I know it is advice that is usually met with denial and resistance.

I am no expert in psychology.......but Tom Cruise is!!! :LOL:

If I put my thoughts and opinions about psychiatry or psychology, it would be an attack. I will refrain. I do appreciate the concern/offer. Un udder thyme, an otter plays.

Zitat:

I suppose my larger thoughts might be that this is the Internet, people come here for many reasons, sometimes their stated ones, sometimes altogether different ones. Further, people are not always as they represent themselves. You present as a married college student, taking a business degree and that very well may be true, however, I have no way to test it and no particular reason to trust you nor you to trust me. Mostly, in help forums, it doesn't matter and, as I said, this has been a lively and interesting discussion. But, you could just as easily be a fourteen year old with high functioning Asperger Syndrome who dropped out of school and thinks it clever and amusing to fool and goad a bunch of adults. For that matter, you could be an AI Bot, years ago I saw one that could almost keep up a conversation at the level of this thread and I expect there has been progress in the interim. Now, before you suggest I take my own advice, and seek help for paranoia, remember that I just mentioned possibilities. I haven't suggested that anyone is doing anything malicious and certainly not specifically to get at me. It's generally only someone with a very narrow view who can't see more than one possibility. That narrow a view can be limiting and lead one to think they have the answer for everyone. It seems to me there is far too much of that around in the world today. Perhaps that has always been so.

The whole thing is culture and my misunderstanding what was said. I have reread the post, and now understand better.

theblackpig

Titel:Verfasst am: 23.09.2011, 13:00 Uhr

Anmeldung: 22. Sep 2011
Beiträge: 26
Wohnort: Oldham nr Manchester UK

As a Newbie (less than 48hrs) in my opinion this is the best Linux distro I have come across in twelve months of trying the well known and more obscure distros.
The major factor for me was twofold ,
1) Being able to use it without having to know too much about about the system
2) Being able to install Vmware without any problems
For me it scores 10 out of 10 on both counts

_________________My choice early in life was either to be a piano-player in a whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference.
-- Harry S. Truman (circa 1962)

TheOne

Titel:Verfasst am: 23.09.2011, 20:05 Uhr

Anmeldung: 15. Mar 2008
Beiträge: 610

Hi theblackpig,

thank you for your feedback. I really appreciate any kind of feedback. The point that it comes from a non german user makes me happy too. If you think something could be done better, don't hesitate, tell us. So enjoy Kanotix