Originally posted by the_lone_bamfAhhhh, well yes, of course. I see EVERY OTHER character doing something more like "WTF is this? Pssh... I don't even care for earth religions, you think I'm gonna look at this garbage?" ::toss::

Clearly, you are not religious. Religious people tend to get very attached to their ONE religion. Hahahahaha.

I mean... I am pretty darn religious (says the girl who just spent a week making small children sing and dance at Vacation Bible School...) but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in what other religions have to say. I think the hallmark of a strong believer is the willingness to put your beliefs up against dissenting views and see what you think. An unchallenged belief is a weak belief.

Kurt, while devoted- has never seem so narrow minded that he wouldn't be interested in a little comparative religion.

I mean... I am pretty darn religious (says the girl who just spent a week making small children sing and dance at Vacation Bible School...) but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in what other religions have to say. I think the hallmark of a strong believer is the willingness to put your beliefs up against dissenting views and see what you think. An unchallenged belief is a weak belief.

Kurt, while devoted- has never seem so narrow minded that he wouldn't be interested in a little comparative religion.

Originally posted by InterNutterI'd consider it as an insight into how their minds work, at the very least.

You can tell a lot about people by the stories they tell.

Yes, something more like this.

I'd definitely check it out, I think it'd be fascinating reading. How is that nuts? I mean, even if we're just talking from a cultural perspective here. And I think if you are dealing with a threatening alien culture, understanding their history and belief system would be invaluable.

Think of it as sort of an extension of when different nations (let's just say Eastern and Western countries) started exchanging cultures. I'm sure that people from Europe were going "WTF? So... you all pray to some round little fat man in hope that he'll lead you to nirvana? Who is the chick with all the arms???" whereas Asia was thinking "So... you worship a guy that got nailed to a tree? And you drink his blood and eat his flesh??? And you call us weird..."

okay, I'm probably thinking this out too far- (further than I expect the comic writers to, at any rate) and I doubt this is the angle from which the comics tackle it- I'm just saying...

But this is a comic book. They want drama. Kurt isn't exercising his brain and trying out new things. He's becoming brainwashed by an alien text that demands we hand ourselves over to them for the good of *their* people.

I.E. Kurt's going nuts and that's dumb and it's also one-dimensional. He doesn't need to be in touch with every religious text ever. He doesn't need to get all devout and absorbed just because it was "fun-and-interesting-read". I agree with Freak, they're taking him down the wrong path if they're with this.

So. I read through this whole thread and then kind of repeated your discussion in my own head (I argued with myself) about it and here's what really bugs me.

It's not that skrulls have bibles. (If they want to have a religious text ... that's cool I guess.)
It's not that Nightcrawler isn't a perfect Catholic. (Because what Catholic is a perfect Catholic? They have confession for a reason you know.)
And it's not that for some reason, since Claremont, all Marvel writers have decided that "Nightcrawler = religion". (Though, it is getting a little old.)

What really bugs me is the word "subverted". I actually had to look it up in my dictionary to make sure I knew the definition because I thought surely it doesn't mean:

subvert |səbˈvərt|
verb [ trans. ]
undermine the power and authority of (an established system or institution)

Oh. Wait, it does mean what I thought it meant.

So this would be about Kurt loosing his faith by being "shown the light" that there is another "better" faith. Well... That's just dumb. And it's been done. I mean didn't Austen do this already with the whole Church of Humanity and your Father is really Satan thing? And like doesn't every X-Men comic with Nightcrawler in it have him questioning his religious morality in some way? Bo-ring.

Not to mention kind of unrealistic and alienating to the people with those beliefs.

I mean, talk to your average Catholic who doesn't go to Church anymore and they'll say something like this: "I just didn't get it." or "It didn't fit in with my lifestyle." It's pretty rare that you get "Well! I discovered Zenu see! And then I realized that Jesus had been wrong all along! Earth came here in the back of an alien station wagon! I knew that whole infallible Pope thing didn't make any sense. Want a brochure?" (At least, no ones ever said that to me.)

I don't understand why Marvel writers can deal with Wolfsbane and not Nightcrawler. She's supposed to be uber religious too and though she wears a cross and does occasionally shout things like "Ye not supposed to kill wee bebbies! 'Tis a sin!" and stuff like that, it's not a constant thing with her character. She has like, regular conversations with people and plots with her might involve adventures and things.

Why can't Nightcrawler be more like Wolfsbane. On Sunday, he goes to Mass. The rest of the week, he's an X-Man.

What really bugs me is the word "subverted". I actually had to look it up in my dictionary to make sure I knew the definition because I thought surely it doesn't mean:

subvert |səbˈvərt|verb [ trans. ]undermine the power and authority of (an established system or institution)

Oh. Wait, it does mean what I thought it meant.

So this would be about Kurt loosing his faith by being "shown the light" that there is another "better" faith. Well... That's just dumb. And it's been done. I mean didn't Austen do this already with the whole Church of Humanity and your Father is really Satan thing? And like doesn't every X-Men comic with Nightcrawler in it have him questioning his religious morality in some way? Bo-ring.

Not to mention kind of unrealistic and alienating to the people with those beliefs.

Yeah, that's what I meant. More or less. I guess lonebamf didn't look up subvert in the dictionary.

Originally posted by AngeliqueWell, the encounter with Anjulie was described as him showing no self control. "He's just a man. Raging hormones and all," or something like that. Not exactly a flattering description of a man who demonstrated self-control there.

It's been awhile, but I think that line was referring to whatserface's father.

There was no need to justify Nightcrawler sleeping with Anjulie. She was hot! She got him naked and came onto him. Who's gonna say no? You? Sure. You are a middle-aged woman. I wouldn't have said no. She was hot! I do resent the implication of "lost control" like he as a whole person didn't want to have sex, it was just the devil inside making him do it or some junk like that.

I don't know how a hardcore Catholic writer would handle the dubious morality of all the other characters in the book.

34 is not middle aged. And even if it were, that doesn't mean I'm dead.

Now that I have that out of the way, yes, having sex with someone just because they're hot does demonstrate a lack of self control. I mean, hello! She was evil! A guy with self control would make an attempt to figure that out before going along with any of her schemes.

He was embarrassed about the whole thing, and he should have been.

As for other characters' morality, it doesn't matter to me quite as much. They aren't all passed of as representing heroic Catholics quite the way Nightcrawler has been.

As for Nightcrawler's apparently latest misadventures, I hope it's just going to be a dark night of the soul, and it won't last. Like all the others.

Why can't they just let him be a happy Catholic?

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

Originally posted by AngeliqueWhy can't they just let him be a happy Catholic?

Now, seriously, the constant focus on Nightcrawlers religion while the denial of evolving it into anything but cliché is nothing else but the writers using a theme that's obviously alien to them. Instead of just leaving it aside or just drawing it with wide strokes they feel obliged to use it though, resulting in one-dimensionality that's paradox at least.

One would think that one of the first rules a writer of any kind learns is "Don't know it? Don't write it!"

My point was only that while I can agree that the whole brainwashing-religion-blah-blah-blah-heard-it-before story isn't so great, I could still understand why Kurt would open the book/view the glowy orb or whatever in the first place. I'm going to assume that there was at least a *smidge* of voluntary exploration on his part, because if not- why use a character interested in religion? If the glowy orb bible can attack anyone, let it attack anyone.

So.. Kurt-opening-the-book... normal reaction. (I went around and asked a bunch of people this question yesterday- if they would read/open/peruse a religious text from a hostile alien species- everyone said yes, some said yes- and they would make the information available to others in the sake of better understanding the enemy.)

Kurt deciding that the Skrull religion > his own long held beliefs? No, that's poo.

I also agree with Saint Kurt that this frequent... well... exploitation of his religious side (which is meant to be a strength, not a weakness) is a bit alienating to readers who a)share those beliefs or b)found that side of his character appealing before it all went to pot.

And yeah, Freak- I agree with the "Don't know it..." rule. When Nightcrawler first took a turn for the "worse" (i.e. preisthood... not to say the priesthood is bad, but it was a turn for the worse for his character...) I was DEFINITELY rolling my eyes thinking "Okay, honestly- how many of the writers on this team really know what they're doing there?" My friends and I joked about a dialogue that went something like :

"Okay, so he's a priest now. We know about priests, right?""Uh...""Well I mean, you've been to church before, right?""Well... there's a synagogue I drive by on the way to work.""..."

Notice, however, that I have yet to see Magneto and Shadowcat stuffing their faces with bacon double cheeseburgers on Yom Kippur. And I would find it rather despicable if I did. I mean, sure, their observance has not been perfect, but I would not expect that from any Jewish character with even the observance to wear the Mogen David.

Nightcrawler is not portrayed as just Catholic, but a devout Catholic. Abandoning that for Skrull-ianity or whatever is out of character.

I can see perhaps people not taking Nightcrawler and the information he gleans from their religion seriously enough. "Based on what this says here, I have reason to believe this is how they will proceed, and they will kill us ALL!"

"You read that garbage?"

Like how we didn't take Al Qaeda seriously enough when they declared war on the US. Only the CIA and people who knew that brand of "Islam" really knew at the time.

Who knows?

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.

Originally posted by the_lone_bamfI also agree with Saint Kurt that this frequent... well... exploitation of his religious side (which is meant to be a strength, not a weakness) is a bit alienating to readers who a)share those beliefs or b)found that side of his character appealing before it all went to pot.

It's alienating to readers who 1. have never had those beliefs and 2. never found that side of his character appealing also.

Extracurricular activities seems pretty interesting. I dont know, I could probably see him doing something that would make his fans coo over him.

I hope he's not just reading his bible or praying or something though, it really would limit is character, and thats boring. We already know that's part of his character. If it's made it into the summary, it has to be something interesting or unique that we haven't seen yet.

So this would be about Kurt loosing his faith by being "shown the light" that there is another "better" faith. Well... That's just dumb. And it's been done. I mean didn't Austen do this already with the whole Church of Humanity and your Father is really Satan thing? And like doesn't every X-Men comic with Nightcrawler in it have him questioning his religious morality in some way? Bo-ring.

Not to mention kind of unrealistic and alienating to the people with those beliefs.

I mean, talk to your average Catholic who doesn't go to Church anymore and they'll say something like this: "I just didn't get it." or "It didn't fit in with my lifestyle." It's pretty rare that you get "Well! I discovered Zenu see! And then I realized that Jesus had been wrong all along! Earth came here in the back of an alien station wagon! I knew that whole infallible Pope thing didn't make any sense. Want a brochure?" (At least, no ones ever said that to me.)

I don't understand why Marvel writers can deal with Wolfsbane and not Nightcrawler. She's supposed to be uber religious too and though she wears a cross and does occasionally shout things like "Ye not supposed to kill wee bebbies! 'Tis a sin!" and stuff like that, it's not a constant thing with her character. She has like, regular conversations with people and plots with her might involve adventures and things.

Well said. And I can't say enough how much I miss the Kurt Wagner who used to carry a sword and be a swashbuckling yummy hero. THe whole religious thing IS getting old. It's not that I don't like Kurt being so spiritual etc- but really, being subverted by an alien religion? Are you freaking kidding me here? I feel like the writers just don't know what to do with Kurt anymore, so they're sticking to his religion and that's it. IMHO, that puts the fuzzy one in danger of becoming one-dimensional *crosses herself* God forbid!

I just don't understand what makes it ok for Wolfsbane to be a normal religious person, and Kurt no. That Church of Humanity episode made me cringe, just a little. I mean, it was interesting, but...idk. SOmething about it made me cringe.

Recently, there was an article about Catholics leaving the church to join protestant religions. But...Saint Kurt is right. There aren't a lot of Catholics that will leave the church for some other non-Christian religions.

Originally posted by Love das flockigeIMHO, that puts the fuzzy one in danger of becoming one-dimensional *crosses herself* God forbid!

If by "in danger" you mean shot to death and buried six feet under, I agree.

We are way past boring, and on the other side of boring is... absurdity, apparently. I have to admit, I'm getting a perverse enjoyment out of this alien bible concept. When I first read it I thought "ugh jeez when will it end" but now... heh. Heh heh. Heh!

Bring it on! Hopefully he'll get more than two panels to expound on the glory of Xenu.

Yes, I found the art in X-Men Secret Invasion disappointing so far. Thankfully, I have found the writing worth tolerating the art, and find so far that this Skrull "bible" seems to be functioning at the moment like an instrument of psychological warfare. I'm not as worried about Nightcrawler converting anytime soon, particularly since seeing just how he's been putting his carpentry and apparent art restoration skills to use in Uncanny 502.

Meddle not with the heartstrings of fans, for we are powerful and hold your pursestrings.