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00:36:18 Anyone here know about Waltz filtering?
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00:37:11 anyone know why the option to build against system libatomic-ops was removed from ecl? (it is removed as far as I can tell from reading src/configure)
00:38:38 gigamonkey: Read about it a long time ago when I was still into that.
00:39:15 Reading about it now. But not really grokking it.
00:39:22 that == AI
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00:39:38 Yeah. I'm trying to figure out how to apply Knuth's Dancing Links algorithm to it.
00:39:48 But I don't really understand what it is yet so that's hard.
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00:41:05 Hmm, yeah. As I recall, it was a way of constraining the possibilities for edges in 2D images according to what their possible orientations might be in 3D, or something like that.
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00:43:36 gigamonkey: Any intro AI book should tell you more. As I recall it was trivial stuff. I must have read about it in the "Handbook of Artificial Intelligence" or possibly in one of Winston's books.
00:44:57 Hmmm. I'll go check Norvig's book.
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00:50:21 Yeah, separated from the machine vision stuff it sounds like maybe just plain old constraint propagation.
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00:53:06 beach: I hear that Dijkstra was rather negative about AI. What do you think his position would have been, if confronted to eg. speach recognition?
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00:54:43 Disappointed, unless you've got a proof to go with that system!
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00:55:37 I assume. How do you "prove" speach recognition? Even stronger, since his methodology was to prove the program before or while writing it?
00:56:42 Well, you don't
00:57:02 I like a lot what beach said about his "methodology" few days ago
00:57:44 s/his/Dijkstra's/
00:58:41 Yes, he made nice contributions. But there's more to programming than what Dijkstra worked on.
00:58:49 I prefer Knuth's idea that a program should a literary work as well...
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00:59:02 pjb: because he was mathematician, not a programmer
00:59:12 *gigamonkey* wonders how big a market there would be for a biography of Knuth.
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00:59:45 His argument is that it's the same. I kind of agree. Programming is kind of a conjugate of mathematics.
01:00:10 gigamonkey: ... if I could ensure that I have the money to spend on it, I'd pay you *now*, as an extreme pre-order
01:00:36 I don't know... how many other biographies of professors have you seen?
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01:00:54 gigamonkey: +1 / I already have TAOCP. Perhaps you could write a multi-biography: describing the lifes and works of several famous CS people.
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01:01:05 gigamonkey: There is a pretty long (several hour long?) interview with him on web of stories, more like biography, was quite an interesting watch
01:01:16 Coders at Work 2.0 ?
01:01:17 housel: I can think of biographies of Feynmann and von Neumann
01:01:49 I get a connection closed at byte 0 when trying to connect to a hunchentoot application. I can see the request is coming in. Any ideas on possible causes?
01:01:56 If you can mesh in history of their works and thoughts too.
01:02:09 housel: you could make an argument that Knuth is maybe up there with guys like that.
01:02:15 it happens as well when I try to wget a page from the machine on which hunchentoot is running
01:02:31 madnificent: proxy problem?
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01:03:43 pjb: hunchentoot serves the pages directly. It could be a configuration issue somehow though, it happened after rebooting a machine that was running for 20 months or so.
01:03:45 gigamonkey: here it is http://www.webofstories.com/play/17060
01:04:03 Does anyone happen to know how to distinguish between windows i should manage and windows i shouldn't (in X)? A lot of programs make a lot of windows with override-redirect on that aren't really supposed to be managed, window managers seem to get it right, but i haven't been able to figure out how
01:04:27 but nor the hunchentoot instance, nor the code is was running, nor sbcl, has been updated since it last ran.
01:04:30 udzinari: thanks.
01:04:59 pjb: any other guesses?
01:05:53 gigamonkey: yw
01:06:40 madnificent: there may be an error in the program that is caught and ignored.
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01:07:13 Try to disable toplevel error handling, or add a handle-bind (not handle-case) to trace the errors.
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01:07:51 Perhaps you got a new version of some library or even of the kernel?
01:07:59 gigamonkey: as a purveyor of things rare and scarce including ephemera, paper, books etc. I am quite sure that where you are given first hand access to primary sources wrt the history of computer science these should most certainly be insured as priceless museum grade collectors items. IOW, were you to write a book on Knuth and able to obtain previoulsy undisclosed material it is likely that your offspring would become wealthy from
01:07:59 their sale at auction :)
01:08:46 Hey, I already have a postcard from him! Can I retire?
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01:08:51 :-)
01:08:59 e.g http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5084296
01:09:00 pjb: a new library of something is what I suspect, yes...
01:09:18 pjb: how do you disable the toplevel error handling for hunchentoot?
01:09:26 I'd read the doc.
01:09:37 wise, I was hoping you just knew :) but thanks!
01:09:42 or grep for handler-case.
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01:11:45 Or this even: http://www.manhattanrarebooks-science.com/church_post_turing.htm
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01:13:26 mon_key: However, I'm not sure biographers typically get away with a lot of loot.
01:14:04 autobiographers, now that's another story
01:14:26 GWB's "I accidentally the whole country" probably made him a nice chunk of change
01:15:14 slyrus: mon_key was suggesting that I'd somehow end up in posession of rare first editions or unpublished notes that might be sold at auction.
01:15:56 gigamonkey: No. likely they do albeit _quietly_, and at arms length.
01:16:19 slyrus: and made it a bad idea for him to visit ~142 countries
01:16:28 pjb: I think Dijkstra would have avoided such imprecise domains if at all possible.
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01:36:24 I imagine one could make a quick buck pawning contemporary punchcards, tapes, written correspondence, notes, whiteboard notes, annotated galleys, pre-publication drafts with corrections, etc. related to any of following: Dijkstra's shortest path, Knuth-Morris-Pratt, Hoare's quicksort, Boyer-Moore, Prim's spanning-trees, Williams' heap-sort, Hirschberg's longest common subseq, Rivest's linear-time/RSA stuff -- likely for all of these
01:36:25 there is still much stuff floating around outside the museums/institutions/auction houses.
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01:43:06 beach: he certainly would have, indeed. He didn't like anthropomorphizing computers...
01:44:21 I recall someone once claiming that Dijkstra was not even much for programming, considering a proven "code" to be enough
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01:50:41 slyrus: you want (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) 1). (simple-array foo *) means the rank is unknown.
01:56:40 p_l|backup: Here's what Knuth had to say about Dijkstra: "In the end his programs were even more literate than mine in the sense that they didnt even go into the machine. They were *only* literate."
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02:00:07 pjb: this was silly! The directory to which hunchentoot ought to write its log files wasn't existant, hence it decided not to output anything whatsoever :) Could be solved in the latest release.
02:00:55 I have two functions, say F and G where the domain is the nonnegative integers, and the range is the nonnegative rationals. Each function is continuous and can be represented finitely with a small number of line segments, the last of which is infinitely long. I want to compute H(x) = min(F(x1), G(x2)) where x1+x2=x. Any hints?
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02:03:29 gigamonkey: heh
02:04:23 gigamonkey: dijkstra, however, would have never written a book that decided that assembly was a better language to teach programming ;-)
02:05:04 beach: arbitrary x1,x2 that sum to x?
02:05:12 beach: continuity on integers is "irrelevant"...
02:05:35 pkhuong: where?
02:05:45 pjb: Right.
02:06:07 |3b|: Yes, min_{x1,x2}.
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02:06:42 beach: if your function is given over intervals, you may split the intervals given for F by the intervals given for G and give H by those intervals. If that's what you're asking.
02:06:54 beach: maybe i mean are the inputs x or x1,x2
02:07:04 *|3b|* is confused by that constraint
02:07:19 pjb: and thanks for the support
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02:08:12 beach: actually, maybe i see now
02:08:21 Oh, wait, I said something wrong.
02:08:27 Otherwise I don't see another way than enumerating all the x1,x2.
02:09:04 compute H(x) = min_{x1,x2} max(F(x1), G(x2))
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02:10:19 is that a product?
02:10:20 pjb: I can definitely enumerate all x1 and x2, but since I can represent F and G sparsely by intervals, there should be a better way.
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02:11:02 slyrus: your opticl post on sbcl-help.
02:11:07 compute H(x) which is the smallest possible value of max(F(x1), G(x2)) over all possible combinations x1 and x2 such that x1+x2= x.
02:11:47 beach: well, the difficulty is that you want the min or max of F(x1) and G(x2) with x=x1+x2, so the intervals you want are not always the same. Eventually, I'm afraid you will have to compute the mins and maxs for N▓.
02:12:00 pkhuong: oh, I see... thanks.
02:12:35 pjb: There might be such cases in effect. I am hoping that most of them won't be.
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02:13:38 ISTM there's no way around enumerating all the intersections of intervals from F and G.
02:14:24 for each such interval, we're left with the min of 2 linear functions, which you can solve with O(1) geometry.
02:15:10 pkhuong: Enumerating "all the intersections of intervals" would be fine, but I don't see how to do that.
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02:15:31 For a given F and G, you may be able to reduce the problem to a specific symbolic problem, where you may deduce some specific things about H, but each case will be different and need different deductions.
02:15:39 beach: are we talking about very large numbers, or slow-to-run functions that you want not to search the entire range of x1/x2?
02:16:58 Phoodus: I definitely do not want to search the entire range, because it is typically infinite. But if I can limit myself to the points of the range that are defined for end-points of the line segments, that would be fine.
02:17:02 beach: I'm assuming you have an explicit representation of F and G. Each line segment has an end, and sort the set of line segment ends for F and G.
02:17:19 pkhuong: Yes.
02:17:28 oh, so x1 and x2 aren't bound to the positive integers.
02:17:34 merge both sorted sets and you're done.
02:17:40 Phoodus: They are.
02:17:40 beach: x1/x2 are bounded by 0 and x, aren't they?
02:17:54 then x1 = 1..x-1, x2 = x-1 .. 1
02:18:04 x1,x2 rather, not division...
02:18:19 pkhuong: I'm not sure that makes a difference as I think the with-array-data is doing it's own declaration. Removing the declaration doesn't make it any worse (nor does fixing it make it any better :) )
02:18:36 |3b|: Yes.
02:18:56 *Phoodus* takes "positive" as 1 and greater
02:19:24 well, open interval then :)
02:19:29 Phoodus: Sorry, nonnegative.
02:19:46 pkhuong: I don't see that, but if you are right, that's great.
02:20:03 pkhuong: Did you see that x=x1+x2?
02:20:19 then you have exactly x combinations of x1,x2 to worry about, right?
02:20:21 beach: yes.
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02:20:30 beach: given the segment, you can express them as inequations, and the definition of H will give you a system of inequation to solve.
02:20:36 for each x.
02:21:08 Phoodus: For each value of x, yes. And that becomes quadratic.
02:21:11 you want to work on H = max(F(x1), G(x-x1))
02:21:25 ah, ok
02:21:32 oh, x isn't given either.
02:21:35 so you can solve these systems of inequations symbolicaly, and if you are lucky this will be less work than enumerating.
02:21:39 pkhuong: Oh, right, that makes sense.
02:22:31 pkhuong: Right, I want to compute H for each value of x.
02:22:48 pjb: Interesting approach.
02:23:23 so really, it's H(x,x1) = max(F(x1), G(x-x1))
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02:24:06 erm, H(x,x1) = max(F(x1), G(x-x1))
02:24:28 Phoodus: No, H(x) = min_{x1} max(F(x1), G(x-x1))
02:24:37 beach: so, you want min_{x1,x2} max(F(x1), G(x2)) ?!
02:24:45 :-)
02:24:45 pkhuong: Yes.
02:24:48 ok
02:25:20 Dijkstra didn't like indices either.
02:25:22 just set x1 = argmin F(x), x2 = argmin G(x)...
02:25:28 infix notation to communicate ideas? on #lisp? now I've seen everything.
02:25:40 chopwood: more like pidgin latex.
02:27:34 right right, avian prophylactics, of course
02:27:37 pkhuong: That gives me one value for x in H(x), right?
02:29:26 that gives you an optimal solution: set x to x1 + x2.
02:29:34 Your formulation seems broken.
02:30:03 Possibly.
02:30:08 I want to compute H.
02:30:18 Not just H for a particular value of x.
02:31:30 But you have all given me some things to think about, so that's what I will do, and then come back with a better formulation.
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02:32:42 If you want to compute H(x) for all x, I'm pretty sure the endpoint sort & merge works, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't possible to share more computations.
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02:33:45 beach: did you want to mean in your problem statement that there are ranges where the "segments" are not horizontal? (eg. from 10 to 20, F(x) = 2x)
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02:34:13 pjb: The segments are definitely not necessarily horizontal.
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02:34:18 ok.
02:34:24 pjb: I mean, they might be, but typically not.
02:34:52 pjb: Which I incorrectly stated as "continuous".
02:35:00 Yes. On the other hand, the slopes must be integer.
02:35:08 rational
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02:36:11 I guess not. If a slope is rational, starting from n, F(n+1) won't be natural.
02:36:36 pjb: Right the range is the nonnegative rationals.
02:37:00 Ok.
02:40:02 *|3b|* wonders how long it would take to just precalculate it and see what it looks like
02:40:27 i guess it depends on the slope of the end segments
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02:43:53 beach: and the last slope (to the infinity) may be different from 0 I guess?
02:44:24 pjb: Yes. The last slope can be >= 0
02:48:09 so is the idea to quickly go from a set of segments for F,G to something similar for H?
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02:50:38 |3b|: Definitely!
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02:57:24 beach: So, if I understand well, and if lisppaste deals with unicode correctly, the problem is http://paste.lisp.org/display/119868
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02:59:47 seems like given 2 segments corresponding to f(x1..x1') and g(x-x1'..x-x1), the min of the max value is either the intersection or the lower endpoint of the higher segment if they don't intersect, right?
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03:00:35 pjb: Looking good so far.
03:02:09 |3b|: Not quite, but almost (I think). It is the smallest one of the endpoints and the intersection.
03:03:06 *|3b|* isn't sure if that generalizes usefully to 'plane segments' or not when x varies
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03:04:14 |3b|: No, you were right in the first place. Sorry!
03:04:54 seems like it should be quadratic in the number of segments of f,g
03:05:45 memoization could help, but in the worst case, yes.
03:07:27 Quadratic in the number of segments would be fine. It is expected to be small.
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04:40:29 |3b|: Ah, but the intersection of those two line segment does not necessarily have an integer x-value.
04:42:22 beach: ah, true, so i guess whichever is lower of the neighboring coords in that case
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04:42:51 right, the function is convex, so it suffices to consider the ceiling and floow.
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04:43:59 pkhuong: What function is convex?
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04:45:47 max(F(x1), G(x-x1)), for x1 in a range such that F and G are affine functions.
04:47:15 OK, sure.
04:48:12 beach, good morning
04:48:26 hello kushal
04:48:52 kushal: Aren't you going to great the others (not individually, of course)?
04:49:04 :)
04:49:10 good morning all :)
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05:29:01 I guess I am not smart enough today to figure this out. I'll let it sink in for a while.
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06:13:50 Bah, H might not even have a finite representation in the form of line segments: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fgh.png
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06:18:37 beach: is that 3rd graph supposed to match the numbers in the list?
06:18:57 Yes.
06:19:02 Did I do it wrong?
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06:19:29 ah, i guess it does match the numbers in your list, maybe i transcribed the code wrong
06:19:56 yeah, looks like i did, never mind then :(
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06:22:09 seems periodic at least, so you might be able to have the final segment mapped to an offset and mod
06:22:13 That's a Bresenham line though, so perhaps there is another representation, finite this time.
06:22:23 |3b|: Yeah.
06:23:01 *|3b|* suspects the shape is an artifact of that particular f and g
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06:24:22 |3b|: Definitely, the "slope" of the last segment is 4/5 which is (4*1)/(4+1) where 4 and 1 are the slopes of the final segments of G and F.
06:24:24 hmm, or maybe not
06:25:08 yeah, that makes sense
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06:44:25 beach: possibly the ceiling of the line with that slope?
06:46:55 |3b|: Yeah, but then imagine combining two such things :(
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06:47:31 you mean repeating the process with F and G being an H from a previous step?
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06:50:13 Where is the `lisp configuration file` located at Debian?
06:50:32 what is "lisp configuration file"?
06:50:33 what do you mean by 'the lisp configuration file'?
06:50:54 I don't know, there's one lisp program which asks me to find that in readme
06:51:21 do you have a link to that readme?
06:51:32 https://github.com/nixeagle/nisp
06:53:08 ok, so a user config file for a particular lisp... next question is which lisp do you use?
06:54:56 |3b|: Yes, exactly.
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06:56:17 GNU CLISP 2.48 (2009-07-28) is what I have (apt-get install clisp) but not sure whether this program is ok with that one
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06:56:46 |3b|: ^
06:57:47 hmm, sourceforge ate clisp home page, they get better every day :p
06:58:15 I'll be here in a few minutes again
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06:59:07 back
06:59:43 Gryllida: looks like for clisp, the file is .clisprc.lisp
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07:00:44 no such file; ' ls ~ | grep lisp ' no output
07:01:17 well, first ls probably doesn't show files with names starting with . by default, and second, you probably need to create it
07:01:17 ls -la ~ | grep lisp, even
07:01:34 ok.
07:01:50 any idea whether I installed the right lisp for this?
07:02:08 no, the right would be SBCL
07:03:03 Gryllida: And before you go away, don't use apt-get install to install SBCL.
07:03:08 and what is this thing, nisp? i can't find any description
07:03:50 beach: why?
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07:04:12 Gryllida: I don't know the details, but it always messes things up.
07:04:30 Gryllida: what does nisp do?
07:04:39 it probably chops sbcl into a thousand little bits, like the way it messes up other languages
07:04:50 my main argument in favor of avoiding debian packages is that we don't support them here :)
07:05:04 And where would SBCL config be located? >.>
07:05:08 Like, normally
07:05:12 so as soon as anything goes wrong, the first step will be to get rid of them and install from upstream + quicklisp anyway
07:05:16 debian/unbuntu package chopping, that is
07:05:25 sbcl uses .sbclrc
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07:06:40 chopwood: yeah, it chops asdf out of sbcl and then uses common-lisp-controller with its own asdf to manage the same sources between different implementations
07:06:52 which doesn't always end up good
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07:08:03 so, can someone tell me what is źnisp╗ and why someone with no lisp experience would want to install it?
07:08:25 *|3b|* was wondering about the choice of that particular repo as well
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07:18:27 beach: yeah, i guess ceiling doesn't work for non-integral slopes either, even without combining them
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07:22:38 or integral for that matter, now that i try a few more :p
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07:24:09 |3b|: Yeah, this thing seems a bit more complicated than I initially thought.
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07:43:37 good morning
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09:13:39 morning lispers
09:13:51 morning!
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09:26:58 hi
09:28:43 hello blinda
09:28:51 hello kiuma
09:29:13 what about summer of lisp symposium?
09:29:26 it's kinda interesting
09:30:04 blinda: what is the "summer of lisp symposium"?
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09:30:37 *beach* wants to know as well.
09:30:42 #summeroflisp
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09:31:05 blinda: that is an irc channel, i recon. maybe you ask there what it is.
09:31:19 I know what is it
09:31:38 and I'd like to go there :)
09:31:41 So what is it?
09:31:46 blinda: /join #summeroflisp
09:32:01 haha
09:32:39 Xaxh sponsored it on his blog
09:32:47 Xach sponsored it on his blog
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09:33:21 found it: http://lispnyc.org/soc
09:33:37 the old lispnyc summer of code thing
09:33:47 blinda: are you talking about the "european lisp symposium"?
09:33:56 yes
09:34:07 is it related to summer of lisp?
09:34:10 blinda: no.
09:34:22 ah ok, I think it was, sorry
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09:37:06 then what is summer of lisp?
09:37:38 blinda: can you please use google?
09:37:50 yes I'm looking for it
09:38:07 blinda: good.
09:38:56 blinda: see the link i pasted above
09:39:34 That link doesn't say anything about deadlines. I guess one would have to go to Google SOC for that.
09:39:48 nikodemus: thanks
09:40:18 nikodemus: but there are only strict Lisp related...
09:40:32 nikodemus: Lisp for Lisp, not applications with Lisp
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09:43:51 Hmm, the list of accepted mentoring organizations won't be published until March 18. Does this mean that LispNYC is not sure to be accepted yet?
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09:51:12 blinda: yes, that's the way it's always been with lispnyc's soc projects
09:54:12 me and a cow-worker have written a code to solve circuit in Lisp, would be nice to receive hints, suggestion and comprehend other people in our project
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10:05:33 blinda: what kind of circuits?
10:05:55 Ralith: electrical
10:06:03 Ralith: with non linearities
10:06:40 Non-linearities make everything hard :C
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10:06:56 blinda: so, analog circuits?
10:07:01 Ralith: sinusoidal source feeding a long line feeding a gas-discharge lamp
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10:07:14 oh, not a generalized simulator.
10:07:23 Ralith: yes, but we're working to achieve synchronous generator models
10:07:56 Ralith: indeed it is a general simulator
10:08:02 Sounds like something a lot of people would use simulink for
10:08:17 Ralith: it solves DAE arising from system solving
10:08:22 blinda: oh? Sounds like a pretty major undertaking.
10:08:47 if it works well, I bet there are a lot of potential users out there
10:09:00 jesusabdullah: with the difference that simulink sometimes doesn't converge on this kind of problem and it is pretty slow
10:09:22 Ralith: yes we try to study problems like power loadflow
10:09:32 Ah, I see.
10:09:37 Ralith: electrical systems failures and so on
10:09:49 Curse you RK methods!!
10:10:08