I hate, hate, HATE people who abuse the term "mary sue". You either don't like the character or don't like the way that everybody ELSE liked the chracter and hipster retribute is a testiment of your opinion and that's fine. But he is not a Mary Sue. By definition, a Mary Sue is an original character inserted into a fan fiction for an existing universe that has powers and exhibits feats that do not mesh well with the nature of that universe and typically they romance a lead, known character of that universe. Thrall IS the main character of the Warcraft Universe and you're essentially saying that Captain Kirk is a Mary Sue or that Harry Potter is a Mary Sue. It's a fanboy (or anti-fanboy) bandwagon put down that weakens your argument and opinion.

While I agree that Thrall is not a Mary Sue, I personally feel that your reason is not the right one. The term 'Mary Sue' not only applies to fan fiction anymore. It now applies to any character (yes, also original characters in an original setting) that are written as self-fulfillment.

I don't think Chris Metzen wrote Thrall as a 'I'm secretly who Chris Metzen wants/believes to be!'-character. I think Thrall was written to be a person to be admired and loved for his qualities, definitely. But that doesn't make Thrall a Mary Sue.

The girl from Twilight, however, IS a Mary Sue. It's basically Stephanie Meyer writing about her own fantasies, where the main character is, in fact, her. Or, at least, that is what it reads like. Mediocre unnoticeable girl attracts the hottest guy in school. Hot guy is also a very mysterious vampire. All sorts of awesome adventure awaits!
Why does that read as a Mary Sue character? Because deep down, we all know we've had the same or similar fantasies in our teens, that's why.

On topic: Yes, I think Thrall should die. Cause some emotional turmoil in the Thrall-loving fanbase (that includes me, by the way), add some depth and risk, and do away with superhero characters. WoW isn't Marvel, after all.

While I agree that Thrall is not a Mary Sue, I personally feel that your reason is not the right one. The term 'Mary Sue' not only applies to fan fiction anymore. It now applies to any character (yes, also original characters in an original setting) that are written as self-fulfillment.

I don't think Chris Metzen wrote Thrall as a 'I'm secretly who Chris Metzen wants/believes to be!'-character. I think Thrall was written to be a person to be admired and loved for his qualities, definitely. But that doesn't make Thrall a Mary Sue.

The girl from Twilight, however, IS a Mary Sue. It's basically Stephanie Meyer writing about her own fantasies, where the main character is, in fact, her. Or, at least, that is what it reads like. Mediocre unnoticeable girl attracts the hottest guy in school. Hot guy is also a very mysterious vampire. All sorts of awesome adventure awaits!
Why does that read as a Mary Sue character? Because deep down, we all know we've had the same or similar fantasies in our teens, that's why.

On topic: Yes, I think Thrall should die. Cause some emotional turmoil in the Thrall-loving fanbase (that includes me, by the way), add some depth and risk, and do away with superhero characters. WoW isn't Marvel, after all.

There's a lot of super powered characters. That doesn't make it a bad thing or Mary Sue which I know you didn't say that but the feeling was there.

There's a lot of super powered characters. That doesn't make it a bad thing or Mary Sue which I know you didn't say that but the feeling was there.

Actually, I said Thrall was not a Mary Sue.
And I am of the opinion that super powered characters ARE bad.

He's not a Mary Sue. Med'an is.

Well; he certainly looks like a Mary Sue from what I could find... But I don't read manga or comics, so I don't know for sure.
Yes, I've read the first book of Twilight. Just so I could have an opinion. :P

I think he should die as well in the final fight with Garrosh. With Jaina/Varian and all the horde there, it would bring them all together to "remember a fallen hero" kind of thing. Jaina would obviously be broken up over Thrall's death which would make the alliance a bit more sympathetic to it and horde is obvious as well. The legion could end up attacking some kind of Thrall memorial bringing the factions together more to fight them off in the next xpac.

I don't think Thrall should die (although if he dies well, I wouldn't mind it). However, he should not return as Warchief. After being World Shaman, he is too strong now. Both Alliance and Horde players must woot for their leaders, and Thrall is now too much a legendary character for anyone to compete with. They did a good job building up Varian, but I don't think he's on par with Thrall yet.

I don't think he should die, I think he should fight in the siege of orgrimmar, but not become war chief. After the siege have him retire, return to nagrand and spend his days with Agra, the kids and I think Saurfang is still in nagrand.

---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 02:07 AM ----------

I think thrall is too powerful to become war chief again, only way I see him dying is if he sacrifices himself somehow in soo.

I don't want him to die, but neither I want him to return as leader of the horde. Is calling is greater than political disputes.

Though for drama's sake -if he died- I'd like to be him fighting Garrosh alongside Jaina, sort of a callback from when he and Gromm defeated Mannoroth. As he fades, he leaves Jaina some words to Aggra and his son and thanks Jaina for her firendship, then he dies in Jaina's arms as Gromm died in his.

That would also lead to more faction wars, with some in the horde believing Jaina took the opportunity to get rid of Thrall and removing the only match to her power, it would be an interesting fallout.

---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 02:13 AM ----------

Originally Posted by LilSaihah

Just for the sake of getting our terms straight, we should probably define Mary Sue. It's incredibly difficult to have any kind of rational discussion without doing that.

Hear hear! some people just fling the term when talking about characters they don't like.

While I agree that Thrall is not a Mary Sue, I personally feel that your reason is not the right one. The term 'Mary Sue' not only applies to fan fiction anymore. It now applies to any character (yes, also original characters in an original setting) that are written as self-fulfillment.

I don't think Chris Metzen wrote Thrall as a 'I'm secretly who Chris Metzen wants/believes to be!'-character. I think Thrall was written to be a person to be admired and loved for his qualities, definitely. But that doesn't make Thrall a Mary Sue.

The girl from Twilight, however, IS a Mary Sue. It's basically Stephanie Meyer writing about her own fantasies, where the main character is, in fact, her. Or, at least, that is what it reads like. Mediocre unnoticeable girl attracts the hottest guy in school. Hot guy is also a very mysterious vampire. All sorts of awesome adventure awaits!
Why does that read as a Mary Sue character? Because deep down, we all know we've had the same or similar fantasies in our teens, that's why.

On topic: Yes, I think Thrall should die. Cause some emotional turmoil in the Thrall-loving fanbase (that includes me, by the way), add some depth and risk, and do away with superhero characters. WoW isn't Marvel, after all.

I kind of also agree with this point though I don't like the term super hero characters.

Stormrage: Malfurion single handedly fights the Nightmare off and becomes a literal god.
Wolfheart: Varian becomes a super saiyan.
Night of the Dragon: Krasus commands a raptor army.

But then!

Wolfheart: Malfurion is kind of the damsel in distress in this book. Ass kicked by Maiev a few times.
War of the Ancients: Krasus is relegated to little more than a narrator.
Stormrage: Most characters fall to the Nightmare without a hint of their awesome powers.
Thrall TotA: Thrall is a total wimp in this book. Even at the end he's little more than motivational speaker. He's not even a very good Shaman.

Thrall is well represented though. He's flawed. He's Human. He's Orcy. He's a Shaman but not the best Shaman. He's a Champion but not the only Champion. He has hopes, fears, desires, sore spots, faults of pride, faults of pacifism, naivety and limits. In most of his literature he's depicted as powerful but not god-like. He's never once called the Aspect of Earth. He's just a Shaman doing his Shamanic duty. Alexstrasza even laughs at the idea of him being an Aspect. He's just an Orc. A prime Orc of the Old New Horde.

Originally Posted by LilSaihah

Just for the sake of getting our terms straight, we should probably define Mary Sue. It's incredibly difficult to have any kind of rational discussion without doing that.

Technically, Me'dan is not a Mary Sue either. Rhonin COULD be but probably isn't really. They are just bad writing. The fault isn't entirely with the writer there though. They just didn't have enough bandwidth to be built up to that level. Not like Thrall or Malfurion or Tirion.

A Mary Sue is, by definition, a self-fulfillment character with powers and abilities that seem out of place within the universe.