Isn't it time to eliminate grades in education?

Give a student an F, she's learned nothing. Giver her an A, and what has she learned? Still nothing. Grades are subjective crutches, used by teachers because they either do not know any better, or because they are forced to give them by an archaic system.

Grades should be replaced by meaningful narrative feedback, which helps students understand what learning outcomes have or have not been mastered. Feedback also encourages learning, while grades only stifle it.

Closing Statement from Mark Barnes

This conversation was a remarkable experience -- one that gave me plenty to think about and to write about in my upcoming book (ROLE Reversal, ASCD 2012). I believe that many people here seem at least open to the idea of moving beyond the subjective, punitive grading system that we use today. Some still believe that grades are the only way to evaluate learning. It appears from the discussion that, in most cases, this is because they haven't been exposed to formative assessment and self-evaluation over summative testing and grades. Grades are a measuring tool, and not a very good one. The problem is not just grading but the idea that measurements are necessary in the first place. Learning should never be measured. Rather, it should be shared, discussed and evaluated openly; these discussions should be accompanied by objective feedback that guides students to other possibilities and to reflection and self-evaluation.

Upon consideration of all comments here, I remain steadfast in my belief that education needs ongoing narrative feedback. Any other system is arrogant and a mistake.

Thanks to all who participated.

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Jul 26 2011:
If you have to give a grade, I like the idea of giving one like Wolf does. You are also right about parents emphasizing grades. Until parents grasp my results-only system, they often ask about grades. They are perplexed, at first, when I say, "There are no grades." Once they learn the system, all of them embrace it.

Thanks for your insight.

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Jul 27 2011:
Flexibility, sure; but when it becomes a good thing to skip classes, you're going too far. It's good you went to the library and worked on projects, but if Wolf was so good, why skip his classes? I observed a project to accommodate unruly students who'd been kicked out of school. They were now given tremendous freedom and extra help - they squandered it, and their behaviour remained atrocious. There must be respect and discipline in an organization, else just let people go their own way and don't interfere at all. Get too liberal and things get sloppy. Good that it worked for you though, but not everyone would have good home schooling or be self motivated like you were. You're right, I think, when you say we should have more types of education - perhaps you could suggest a new type as the start of another discussion ;) I bet you have some good ideas.

Jul 27 2011:
Birdia (forgive me if I misuse your name), I am in awe of you. I am often looked upon by colleagues as weak, because, like your instructor, I am far more concerned by seeing a student learn than by how she learns. I have many students who are labeled as "unruly" by other teachers, yet I have no problems with them at all. This is the essence of a Results Only Learning Environment.

Many of my students master learning outcomes in different ways. I have had students miss weeks of school for various reasons and still do very well, because they are good at using the tools I provide outside of school. My workshop setting also allows many students to go elsewhere to study, while the remainder of the class stays and works in my room. Each student has individual needs. This is something that is missing in education globally, I think.

Thanks for your very kind words. I can't change anything by myself, though. People like you and others in this discussion will carry us into new-millennium learning.

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Jul 28 2011:
I think I would have let the Birdia out of her cage ;) I guess art students are a class unto themselves: it's kind of expected that you'll be wild with creative energy and therefore be untameable. As for my degree, I did get it after missing most of my 3rd year, but I didn't get a good grade - if only grades had been abolished.

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Jul 28 2011:
Well, now I seem to have rattled your cage. You seem to misunderstand me as much as I misunderstand you. I love creative people, and have not said otherwise. My comment about the cage was simply to say I would have given you the freedom you needed. Wild and untameable wasn't so serious, but meant as a tongue in cheek compliment, as in creativity that breaks through control barriers. You've added the word 'beast' quite unfairly to exaggerate your attack on my words. I don't know what the stone age has to do with this; you seem to have wanted to add something and grabbed a cliché in anger.I'm not sure what your point is actually; you've not been clear. How was Wolf visionary? The history of the Bauhaus...not familiar with this. What is the main principle you have in mind? Thanks. p.s. as for my 3rd year at uni, I wasn't so mature back then. I have different ideas now.

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Jul 29 2011:
Hi Birdia. A little bickering is fun, but this could go on and on at the expense of more fruitful debate. I invite you to join me in turning over a new leaf, where we both look for the value and interest in each others comments, and let all the negativity slip away. I hope this is acceptable to you, and I look forward to hearing more of your opinions. Until next time ;) Cheers.

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Jul 28 2011:
many people gave him F, but it wouldn't matter. teachers also gave him F, that's the problem. and i'm also giving him A for being sharp like a scalpel.

so you get the conversation back on track. this is the problem with grades. in school, the system decides who gets A and who gets F. in real life, it is more diverse. some give F some give A, and all between. this is how people find their place in society. the system's opinion does not count.

Jul 29 2011:
To eliminate the grading process from our education system implies that many other changes have taken place to render them useless - so in that respect I think it would be a good thing. But realistically speaking I think we would do well as educators to de-emphasize them as it sounds you have done ( does your school system actually allow you to eliminate them all together?!)

The fact of the matter is children need something that indicates the degree to which a teacher has been pleased with their effort and progress. There is also a developmental aspect to moving through
the grades that the grading system is cueing in on.

Then there is the matter of children who come to school with "baggage". They are so distracted
by their world in tumult that school is an afterthought at best. Giving grades might be the only thing that motivates them. Or not.

But to get back to the point of grades being necessary or not, I think they should be made meaningless by making changes like Sir Ken Robinson advocates for in education.

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Aug 10 2011:
Mark Barnes,
It’s nice to see your engagement with educational reform.
Education today has become a global manifestation; this would suggest that education is a strong societal determinant. I would push this further and suggest the reform cannot pertain to a given space, nor can it be applied to a select group of people. This might be evident, but what actually is the reform, is it a mere reaction to something that alludes to our pre-existing notions on education.

A "changed" human being compels; the more one changes, the more compelling reform becomes. Fortunately our society is in continual need for change. Advocating pre-existing educational systems often lead to social, cultural, and educational stagnation.

I recently graduated from a system unlike any elitist based systems. You might be interested to see how this and other educational systems have attempted to rethink education.
Centre for Learning, (shortened to C.F.L) is a school based in Bangalore, Indiahttp://cfl.in/
It would be interesting if you begin to compile a list of different educational systems that have relooked education and found ways to implement reform. Hopefully this helps convey to the masses that reformation is not just possible but also an emerging reality.

Change comes easier when collaborated collectively with those who hold similar values and practices.

Aug 10 2011:
I agree with your proposition that grades should be eliminated from education. In fact, however, I think that particular question, at the secondary level, has been asked and answered. I am speaking here of public education, and I would be happy to take up private preparatory education in a subsequent post.

Grades are already gone.

At no time in the last decade of teaching high school and middle school has a single administrator ever once asked me about the grades students receive in my classes. For example, “Mr. Smith, I have a question for you. Why is it that your eighth graders almost always pass your courses with a “B” grade or higher?” Never. Why?

I believe that grades at the secondary level have already been functionally eliminated and emptied of their meaning by the primacy of standardized testing. I believe that we should eliminate grading systems because they are useless, wasteful, and redundant in the negative sense. At this point we have two grading systems: meaningless grades and standardized test scores.

I believe that standardized testing in education has the same effect on culture and learning that anesthesia has prior to invasive dental work: “I don’t care what happens next, I just don’t want to feel anything until it’s over or be reminded that it ever happened.”

Standardized tests are the “grades” of the present and they represent a political move that has nothing to do with students, education, or culture. Standardized tests are seen by elected officials as a way to deliver votes. So long as they do, our public education system will, without fail, remain solidly in the camp of testing all students at every possible opportunity.So long as the results can be manipulated by re-engineering tests and answers, those tests will remain in the hands of educrats driven by dollars.

Students are not the ones being graded at all, and it's time students received valuable reflections that help them see who they are and what they are becoming.

Aug 10 2011:
Todd you make excellent points about standardized testing. Also, I'm glad administrators aren't asking you about your grades, but if you're still giving them and they're factored into a GPA, then they still exist.

Aug 9 2011:
I definitely agree that grades should be eliminated, because really what do they show?? nothing, except what we say the should. Just because you get an A in a class doesn't mean that you are "smart" and learned everything. 6 months down the road what will you have taken from that class you got an A in? that's where true learning is. It's what you can take away from a class. I know people who flunked out of high school, but they are the smartest people I know (not all of them, but some).

Aug 4 2011:
There is one thing that is missing in this process. Narrative feedback isn't good enough if there is no performance standards attached to it. Once you have standards (developed amongst the staff that must use those standards--English teachers set their standards, etc....) there will be more consistency in feedback from teacher to teacher and more clarity of what to the student knows or does not know. Just because you don't have a letter grade doesn't mean you are not allowed to perform up to expectations. It is called standards-based grading and has been successful in many schools. It makes grading more objective with the use of performance rubrics and common assessments from one class to another (that way any English teacher could "grade" the same paper and the "score" would be almost exactly the same).

Aug 5 2011:
Peter, I realize standards must play a role in assessment. Sadly, this is the system we live in. Most standards are very poorly written and do not account for the different abilities of students.

Having said this, I believe there's plenty of room for narrative feedback that addresses standards. With learning outcomes properly outlined within a discipline, it would be easy for any teacher to leave feedback, even if a student was not in her class. Thanks for this excellent observation.

Aug 5 2011:
But using performance is an excellent way to provide differentiation! One student's "3" might be another student's "4." And you are write that most standards are poorly written, but there is work being done on them... good work at that. Besides, one of the most effective ways to make the standards better is to "unpack" them yourself (or even better, with those in your department) to develop standards that work for your particular school.

There was a case study done in 1960's Britain, when they were moving from grammar schools to comprehensive schools. It's called the streaming trials. We call it tracking here in the States. It's separating students from A, B, C, D and so on. And the A students get the tougher curriculum, the best teachers, etc. Well, they took, over a three month period, D level students, gave them A's, told them they were A's, told them they were bright. And at the end of this three month period, they were performing at A level.

And, of course, the heartbreaking, flip side of this study, is that they took the A students and told them they were D's. And that's what happened at the end of that three month period. Those who were still around in school, besides the people who had dropped out. A crucial part of this case study was that the teachers were duped too. The teachers didn't know a switch had been made. They were simply told these are the A students, these are the D students. And that's how they went about teaching them and treating them.

Aug 9 2011:
I want to echo something that Mark is saying, it's important. Understanding Results Only Learning will answer many of the concerns and questions raised. More to the point, being afraid of change, and that is what I hear over and over, is no reason to stop it.

I believe that parents and communities must act to move forward. Teachers are left to their own devices and thank goodness there are people like Mark who believe so much in learning and in children's abilities to become lifelong learners - that they take on opposition for the betterment of education.

Let's keep something in mind: Teachers need and deserve our partnership, respect and support. Not everyone can, or should teach. It's a gift, a vocation and in many cases a commitment to doing a "job" for which there isn't even adequate pay.

Mark is doing something that he has found success with. Hearing about the results his students achieve should make us take notice in a manner that is positive. I definitely see where what he is doing can be so good for kids, although I certainly recognize it's not an answer to the overall problem. But it wasn't mean to be. Looking back at my first response, I missed that.

We can all cite reasons for why something will fail. That's been explored. I challenge you all to take the viewpoint that it will succeed. Think about it, talk about it. Be open to the change you want to see - it might mean letting go of those carefully guarded perceptions, but TED is a forum for learning and sharing - I hope everyone sees that in order for that to happen, we ourselves must be willing to consider change as progress. I learned from a great teacher (more years ago than I care to admit!) that the best debate is one in which each team can argue each side of the subject on the table. If nothing else, it illustrates our level comprehension more completely.

If during the course of such debate, you discover something you hadn't known before, "ta-da" learning has been achieved. Which IS the goal.

Aug 10 2011:
Libbey, your heartfelt comment means a lot to me. I am certainly willing to take on questions, concerns and even negativity. This is why I started this remarkable debate, which people have made the most active on the TED.com conversations site.

Change is difficult, especially major reform of something that has been the same for so long.

I believe ongoing discussions, like this one, will make people take notice, and other teachers will begin using results-only learning worldwide.

Aug 9 2011:
Mark, maybe the problem is the emotional connection that our soceity usually attach to the grades. Grades could be objective in certain aspects. Perhaps the grading systems should start at "A" and no "F" because we are all intrinsically intelligent and good people. http://Bit.Ly/KeyPower

Narrative feedback is great as it translates into more meaningful care for each student. I also like Salman Khan's idea that we all can learn basic math, science, grammar and values education, with the help of our technologies.

Aug 8 2011:
Changing student learning assessment isn't enough to effect the overhaul needed in education. As a parent who dis-enrolled her children from a superior-rated school with wonderful teachers and staff, I can attest to this fact:
Problems in schools aren't born there.
Issues which adversely affect a child's education begin outside of the school and reflect the problems within the community. Education needs more than just reform, or a change in how we judge performance. Whether we speak of a student's performance or a teacher's - we must look outside that institutional "box" to parents & communities. When any community has a multiple schools which are both private and public, lack of appropriate funding opportunities sets the stage for elitist and often non-diverse systems, which may follow the same state guidelines for education, but whose populace is unbalanced in terms of background - both ethnic and financial.
Where we live, there are vast differences in the climate in which a child can receive an education. And while it shouldn't be the case, these differences affect our children while in school - and out of school, living in the community. That affect transfers itself to the parents - whether they are taking on the stress of trying to afford a "better" private school or to live in a better school district, or dealing with problems in lower income communities from drugs & gangs - the changes we need to see in our schools are wholly reflective of the problems the community at large faces. Until federal and state funding aids ALL schools, to standardize resources while maintaining the highest level of educational integrity - the differences in income status will continue to build walls and create class segregated schools.
Creating an environment that is super-charged educationally and child centered means removing ALL barriers that threaten to compromise a child's ability to engage themselves in learning. That starts with social change, with parents and government

Aug 8 2011:
Libbey. Very well said. I found this article this morning I was going to post in this thread anyway about the cheating scandal in Atlanta schools. I think it reflects very well what you have stated.

I taught for a while at an elite private academy. Most of the students were delivered by limousine or town car in the morning and the chauffeurs would pick them up at night. They were indifferent students at best and full of entitlement. Little Bushies. Most of them haven't done anything with their lives except join daddies firm. Parasites by and large.

I also taught in the inner city where some of my students were homeless, or dealt with gang problems or worse. And those students were almost to a person wonderful to deal with once they decided that they could trust me. Half of those students have moved on to become doctors, lawyers and other productive members of society. One of my favorites, Seth, was homeless and yet managed to get all of his homework done (including practicing clarinet every night). He never knew where his next meal was coming from or where he would sleep.

There is not comparison in my mind. The kids from nothing were more empathetic, caring, creative and motivated than the rich kids. And yet the rich kids will make more money and cause more problems. The USA may be many things, but what we are mostly is an empire in decline filled with citizens who distract themselves from the humanity around them.

Aug 8 2011:
Libbey, I agree with you, but I'm not willing to wait for parents and government to make the necessary changes, because they will never do so. As a teacher, who understands what students need, I think it's important to act. This is why I run my classroom differently from all traditional educators.

Aug 9 2011:
Hi Mark ~
I see your point. It is easy for those of us who aren't immersed in the classroom to find a myriad of "what if" potentials. I recognize too your commitment to actually moving forward to effect the change some of us only talk about. And thank you for it. Truly.
(AND ... I continue to think this is an EXCELLENT debate/question - way to raise awareness.)

Aug 7 2011:
As a parent, grades and test scores help me get an idea of how my child is doing in relation to expected standards. And according to my expectations. I have 3 children. One is extremely intelligent and can easily achieve straight As. If he gets a B or C that needs to be taken seriously. My other school age child is also very intelligent but not in an academic way. I'm happy with Bs for her. Her strengths such as creativity and independence don't get recognised in the school system very well at this point although I think that ultimately she will be as successful as her brother. Should grades be the be all or end all of everything? Absolutely not. But I would hope that if a child is scoring poorly that the teacher takes the time to work out WHY that child is scoring below expectations and uses it as a starting point to tailor that child's education so that they do have the potential to achieve.
As a child myself I always liked getting marks because I worked hard and that was one way of recognising that to which anyone could relate. I didn't want to get the same pass score as someone who hadn't worked and who had done the bare minimum.
Teachers and children need detailed assessments not just a letter grade so that there is some basis for improvement.

Aug 7 2011:
Donna, I hear so much passion in your words, and as a parent I certainly appreciate this. What I also see is the word "expectation" an awful lot. Expectation can be a very negative word; I try to use it sparingly when teaching. When we hit students with expectations, learning becomes about what the teacher thinks, rather than what the student thinks.

When my children get report cards, I ask them how they feel about the marks. "Are you happy with what you accomplished? Did you learn? What would you like to improve upon?" Questions like these eliminate expectation and make learning a responsibility that children embrace.

If you admonish your "A student" for getting a B or a C, then his learning is now about you and your expectations. This is exactly what makes grades deplorable learning killers.

I appreciate that you were a good student, but you didn't realize as most children don't that you were conditioned to take pride in grades. I would hope that deep down you were really proud of what you had accomplished. I wonder, if you got a grade below an A, did you feel an urge to learn more, or did you feel defeated?

Students only do "the bare minimum" for one of two reasons: they see the task as useless or they've been defeated by poor grades and feel that, no matter how hard they work, they will fail.

I hope you'll believe me both as a parent and a teacher speaking from experience, your children don't need grades. Put them in a Results Only Learning Environment, and they'll embrace learning more than ever.

Finally, I find it interesting that you are willing to settle for less learning from your second child. Consider how your feelings might change if she loved learning as much as the first. Take away the "B or C" label, and she just might.

Aug 4 2011:
If you will for one moment, forget 'grading students'. Grades also serve as an indicator to let people know how well the 'teacher' is doing.

I just dont see how or why I would send my son to a school where the teacher could not be held accountable, as well as, the student. What is mentioned above...sounds like home-schooling, but not every parent or child has the environment for it. In addition, what is so wrong with having both?

Every teacher who grades now, should be able to provide meaningful narrative feedback as to why the student is being graded what they are.

I am all for progress and new ideas, but this idea just sounds like an escape plan to stop doing something many believe stifles teachers; not students. I cant help but feel this type of teaching for a child would lead an adult who is socially clueless as to what is expected when finding a job; believing that they can talk their way into or out of something.

Aug 6 2011:
Steven, I hope all of my students are very capable of talking their way into or out of something. The sort of critical thinking skills required for this are exactly the kind that grow in a ROLE.

I can't speak much about home schooling, but if it embraces collaboration, autonomy, the elimination of useless methods like homework, worksheets and testing, then, yes, the ROLE is like this.

I'm not sure how you can judge the quality of a teacher by grades. Let's see, you want to evaluate me on whether my students get good grades, no problem; they'll all get A's. Remember, the teachers give the grades, which is exactly the problem and the subjective nature I've written so widely about that so many people don't seem to understand.

Sadly, I have the power to "give" any grade I want, even though the letter I give has nothing to do with performance or learning. Yet people continue to say that grades are objective. This assertion is very unreasonable to me.

Aug 7 2011:
"I just dont see how or why I would send my son to a school where the teacher could not be held accountable, as well as, the student." Steve, there you go being a parent. Don't you know it is 2011? Parents are no longer required to think about the best interest of their child or their development. That is the teacher's job. And, really, Steve, what makes you think you know better than the teacher? Do you hold an advanced degree? Do you have eighteen years of experience with other people's children? If not, shut up - this doesn't concern you, plebe. Just send in your tax dollars and go concern yourself with whatever dreary work you do in the private sector. (Cut to Mike and Mark, nodding in agreement)

Mark - there is a profound difference between teachers giving grades and students earning grades. That you have repeatedly been so quick to point out your ability to manipulate test grades is starting to make me question your character. Is promoting the ROLE system a way for you to absolve guilt for breaking your own code of honor in the classroom? Stop using the "Yeah but I could be a sack of shit" argument to disqualify honest teachers and the honest, objective system they uphold. You are the only one falling for it.

Aug 8 2011:
Um - really? Talking your way into and out of things seems to be the MOST desirable job skill these days. It's kept scores of sociopathic business leaders and politicians out of jail. And it certainly seems to be the most desirable and marketable skill in media...

Aug 4 2011:
I agree with you. I think that learning should be about learning, not who can learn the most or who can learn the best. I think that every person has unique wants and passions and can't simply be placed in a system and have it be expected for them to adapt and succeed in it. I feel that numbers are just a quick, impersonal way to define someone's status so as to save time and effort. But we can't just let a number judge their intelligence or their capability. Someone who didn't get very high grades in English who wants to pursue a graphic arts program (for example) because they feel passionate about art shouldn't be limited to that opportunity because they were 5 tenths off the mark. And yet someone who didn't really care about art, but who had the higher grades, should be able to pursue it because they have a higher number? what does that teach people? that because you are better suited for societies system that you are better suited for being successful? or that because you aren't suited for societies system you must learn to adapt or not be able to accomplish what you want to do?
I also think that a big problem with the school system these days is that students simply aren't doing what they want. we have access to so much knowledge by just the internet alone that a lot of us have already decided what we're passionate about and what we want. But we have to spend time doing things that we aren't and time being in palces that aren't helping us get to where we wants to be. Surely i can write a 500 word essay on Shakespeare but i think i'd have a much higher grade if i wrote about something i cared about.
The problem with our generation isn't that we aren't good enough or motivated enough to do anything. It's that we feel that there are too many unimportant things in the way of reaching our goals. We're discouraged. Because we're a generation of imagination, and technology and dreams. and yet we're still living in a society that limits us.

Aug 4 2011:
Why should putting more emphasis on the intrinsic value of learning make someone less competitive? I agree that doing away with grades entirely is not the right choice, but being so focused on competition is not any better. Aren't the leaders of our economy the people who have learned to tap their inner desire to learn more about something?

Aug 5 2011:
Yes, i am appreciative to live in a country with so many opportunities and be part of a generation so advanced. But we aren't talking about the difference between my country and others. we're talking about the education system in mine and other like mine. and thank-you-very-much, i think i have a right to say whatever the hell i want about how I feel about the education system in MY country. I can't speak for anyone else in any other countries and i'm not trying to. Excuse me for speaking my mind, i thought that's what this entire website was devoted to.
What i said is how i feel and understand the education system to be flawed and i personally would like to change it. It's not that i am unappreciative of what i have, it's that i'd like to use what i have to further myself rather than waste it.

Aug 6 2011:
Amanda, you have brought a fresh point of view to the debate. Thanks so much for your comments.

Shaken, regardless of how much or how little someone may have, I'm not sure why this means we should make education boring. I think you may have missed Amanda's point. If I understand her, she wants the right to choose what she learns. She doesn't want to be labeled by a letter that most likely does nothing to define her.

Aug 3 2011:
I have to say that as a teacher (I work as an adjunct professor part time) I think grades are incredibly important to the way students think about the consequences of how hard they choose to work, or possibly how easily something comes to them, and where they stand in general in a class. Now, I don't mean to say that I think the current system is perfect but I think the elimination of grades on the whole is an oversimplified solution to the problem. I agree with the point about meaningful feedback. Ultimately there needs to be the immediate feedback (a ranking system one may say as opposed to a grading system) coupled with a meaningful dialogue about how one can improve their rank (or grade as the case may be).

I think a major issue that I see in my students is that we as a society have decided to make it too easy for them to fail. By saying that grades are unnecessary I think that we are in turn saying that they are meaningless and that if a student doesn't do well it isn't because of a problem/issue the student has it is because the system is flawed. I think that is a dangerous thought process. In a perfect world, yes having meaningful discourse about how one can improve their efforts towards doing better in a class or school in general would be wonderful; however in that you are assuming that most students want to do better and that is not always true. For that reason I think grades have to stay as a baseline assessment tool and then if you can parse out those that would benefit from a non-traditional feedback mechanism that is where there is room for change.

Aug 3 2011:
I read your message with the enlighted vision from another TED Talk I was watching yesterday: Alain de Botton's "A kinder, gentler philosophy of success" speech. He was talking about meritocracy, about the underneath competition, how it's great when you succeed... and how it is crushing for those who fail.
Even the notion of "failure" is linked to that new way of thinking. Alain told us that a century (and maybe a half) ago, a person who didn't reach success was described as an "unfortunate", which has a slightly different meaning from the nowadays "loser" one...

You told that some children maybe simply seek failure if we don't encourage them through grades. I don't think children seek failure more than others... but maybe they don't seek what others tell them success is.
Maybe the problem is letting children thinking that if they don't fit in our nowadays school systems, they will fail. And that leads to the point of this talk: since our system doesn't naturally push children towards success in their life, we need to change at least something to our school system.

I personally have always been afraid of and stressed by the idea to go to school. Why? It is a non-sense. I needed education to have the tools to decide what I wanted to do and to enjoy my own adult life. I knew all that. But that didn't change my feelings about it. And I remember neither my parents or my teachers ever brought me a satisfying answer. And, due to our system, I wonder if they could ever bring it.

The meritocracy Alain told about has invaded our schools. I am pretty sure a majority of children doesn't feel in a friendly environment at school. They feel competition, reward in case of success, and most of all ridicule if they fail... and of course the "loser" tag virtually stamped on their forehead aswell.

It's hard to think about a new system because we are not used to it. But we have to try, and for that we need to sweep away our preconceived ideas about what is good or bad in education.

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Aug 3 2011:
I'm hoping that I understand your question, but ultimately I think the "fear of fair" and the "learning to learn" may come more from how a teacher/educator presents learning to the students than the pressure that a grading system places on them. I think that was alluded to in the previous comment. When I teach I try and convey to my students that it isn't the grade they should be stressed about, but what it represents. The original article said that if you give a student an F they learn nothing, if they get an A they also learn nothing, this again is flawed. I think as a teacher it is my job to make sure they do learn from that F or from that A. I start my class by saying that there are no stupid questions, but the ones that are never asked. I try and make sure that lines of communication are open. If a student of mine gets an F my mind goes to many different options as to why. I try and make sure that they can feel free to talk to me about it. I also try very hard to impart on my students a desire to question, they are always free to discuss their grade as I hope they would feel free to question almost anything presented to them. I think that comes to your last point where learning to learn is something that may unfortunately happen post-formal education. I try and tell my students that while I am their teacher, I will always first be a student. I never purport to know everything and neither should they. Learning comes in different forms, however your mastery of what you have learned has to be quantified, I need to know where I stand in my knowledge base so that I can feel comfortable using that information to make later decisions. Much like you say it influences economy and so forth. For that reason I feel that if a teacher can take the scariness out of learning, an F isn't a shameful thing its an opportunity to understand.

Aug 2 2011:
I went to a high school where students were given letter grades, but they were based on the student's level of proficiency in meeting 6 competency areas called Learner Expectations. Each paper or project grade was accompanied with an explanation of how well we performed in each LE, which included Complex Thinker, Skilled Information Processor, Effective Communicator, Collaborative Worker, Responsible Citizen and Knowledgeable Person.
I feel like this was a fairly good compromise between grades and qualitative measures of learning. Unfortunately, many students ignored the Learner Expectations and just looked at the grade, and that is a deeper cultural problem that needs to be fixed.

Aug 2 2011:
Justin, thank you for this specific information. This sounds like a solid system. I would suggest that if some students ignore the comments in favor of the grade that this bears out much of what I say about grades.

Imagine the added power of your Learner Expectations, if all students considered them carefully. Minus the letter, they just might do this.

Aug 2 2011:
The problem is, though, that parents demand a method of knowing what their kids are doing and higher-education requires a way of quantifying a student's aptitude relative to others. If we are to have this, then naturally, competitive students and parents will accentuate the importance of such grades and thereby force everybody else to do the same. This perhaps is a classic case of the stag hunt game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt) and because there will always be competitive students, any method of quantification will become like grades.

As for removing grades altogether, it becomes counterproductive to create alternate feedback mechanisms with more depth due to the fact that such grades must be processed quickly and efficiently for many purposes (such as data-crunching and college admissions). For example, which is better, an "excellent student" or an "excelling student"?

Aug 1 2011:
If I understand education as a process of discovering potentialities an development, there are two points: first, each person discovers its potentialities and second, other person discover its potentialities.
Grades are disigned by people who believe that its possible to define the space (school, rooms, ...) and the time in which a person can development its potentialities. I think this in not true anymore. Yes: its time to eliminate grades.

Jul 31 2011:
Of course it is so easy to agree to your proposal if one knows the dangers of grades - I have two childern and I know this quite well. My answer to the useless grade system was to teach my children not accept any outside judgements as given, as objective or as measures of personality. We need to keep in mind that the grade system is imposed on persons who are just developing their personality - to me this is the worst point of time to apply a grading system.

Since I needed to help my childern aginst the grade system, I teach them to look at the process of learning of rather than the result of learning. narrative feedback is much better than grades - but still: a higher outside authority tells the story. and of course children in this age of personality building will compare themselves inevitably: which feedback is better than an other? who is the social and intellectual leader in the class ? this peer group dynamic will eat up and misuse the storytelling just as the grades.
So I would stay with my recommendation even with a storytelling-system: what ever you learned, it is not a measure of your social position or personal development. it is a step in a process each child governs itself - by the way: since my children really do not take school too serious any longer, they are much better at school.

So said in short. Yes - your idea is an improvement, but No: It is not enough to help to educate.

Jul 31 2011:
Bernd, I think somewhere along the way you misunderstood my message. I believe narrative feedback is the best replacement for number and letter grades. It is not enough, by itself, to be an education system.

What I want is to see all teachers create what I call a Results Only Learning Environment, www.resultsonly.com. This is truly a system. It creates a workshop setting, year-long projects that encompass all learning outcomes, collaboration, autonomy and self-evaluation.

Jul 29 2011:
Some thoughts - what grade would you give a child for learning to talk or to walk, to learn the colours of the rainbow or the letters of the alphabet, to ponder the number of stars in the sky or grains of sand on the beach, why the sky is blue or the grass is green? How much time would you give a child to learn to walk, before telling him to give up trying, because he stumbles too often and will never be good at it?

What grade would you give a teen to learn a poem by Keats, admire the paintings of Rembrandt, read the novels of Achebe, study the behaviour of butterflies, or practice double integrals - just because she is fascinated by them. I wonder what grades the old literary and science masters got.

Not assigning grades is not revolutionary - homeschooling parents have, for a long time, been successfully facilitating their children's learning without grades, without judgement.

Jul 27 2011:
I remember the talk on extrinsic motivation. It was very interesting and I can see how your observations in the health care industry support the assumption. There is one important distinction to be made here, however. We tend to live life at the level of our perception and all of us in this discussion are educated adults doing what we love (hopefully). But what of the 14-year old who loves his English class, but can't stand Geometry? In subjects we love (either fully or at least in part), I can see the argument working. Having taught these delightful, but not always motivated, high-schoolers, these assumptions may or may not work. When teaching pre-service teachers at the college level, it's an entirely different story. Grades are completely beside the point (it's the recommendation letter that counts)

Now, I think I can predict the response to this :) If they're not motivated to learn these subjects at all, why are we teaching them? Great question! What I'd love to see (at least by the time my grandchildren go to school) is a life-long learning model in which students aged 2-102 follow a self-designed plan of learning based upon their own environment, culture, and interests. For instance, my five year old has been consumed with a love for dinosaurs. She talks about them, sings about them, draws them, and posits theories on their demise. We've taken full advantage of this with books, internet resources, videos, trips to museums, and discussions with family members on what they've learned over the years on the topic. This investigation has covered science, math, art, music, writing, and even a level of social studies not entirely expected (one discussion morphed into a debate over how much funding the city of St. Louis should give its science center to expand dino-related activities) Highly motivating? Absolutely. And with no grade or snack attached. If we can envision a program like this to educate our society, grades would be largely unnecessary

Jul 27 2011:
Wow, Amy, what you describe sounds exactly like a Results Only Learning Environment, which is built on year-long projects that incorporate all of the learning outcomes from one subject, while integrating cross-curricular objectives, as well.

Our vision can happen much sooner than later, if we make it so. I started a ROLE a year ago, changing everything. I didn't ask for permission; I just did it. The results were beyond amazing. All it takes is action.

Jul 27 2011:
Mark, maybe we would agree on many things if we spoke. But I'll play devil's advocate here. Open ended proposals are great but not useful unless they can draw atleast a faint line towards on the ground implementation (probably this is very non-TEDish). Narrative feedback does not change the game at all. My 2 cents below (I am not teacher and not an expert at anything :))

- Central idea #1: 'Bad grades demotivate students'. Honestly speaking that really depends on how the teachers and parents explain to kids what a bad grade means. It means you need to work harder and not give up. Add narrative feedback to that and students will have clear direction to channelize thier efforts. The next test would be indicator of actual improvement. I dont see why, if improvement was made as per narrative feedback, the grade won't improve. I do beleive that an earlier bad grade should not stick with a student for life once he has made effort to change it.

- Central idea #2: 'Grades dont indicate anything about learning'. This is true in specific cases but mostly false in a gerneral sense. Student with 'A' might not necessarily have more knowledge about a subject than one with 'B', but any experiment will show (I have no evidence to back this up, this is an educated guess) clear difference in understanding of subject matter between a student with 'A' and one with 'F'.

- Central idea #3:'Thirst for learning (as an instinct) can be ignited or detroyed by any kind of grading system'. Current system or any other alternate system of evaluation will not affect this. Learning is a personal quest. No doubt that certain environments, people, stories or encounters ignite a thirst for learning in most of us. That is the only true motivation for pure learning and is independent of what grades you get OR how much money you are paid.