Honestly, in my opinion, match was more of a ridiculous free-for-all gametype that just pays homage to the game engine its playing in. It feels quite tedious to play... SO MUCH MATCH. Also, a large percent of the new players trying to get into multiplayer are gonna be confused as all hell and stick to the keyboard keys they are using. I mean, I can't hate match because its "NOT SONIC", but it just doesn't feel like how you just recently played the game. Platforming, bashing things by jumping, that's how you would play srb2. While SRB2 Match isn't a Call of Duty or Doom, it just feels majorly unbalanced because of the gameplay of the other characters. Sonic's Thok plus good aim can lead to some unfair and defenseless hits. Tails' is so slow its not worth playing as him. Knuckles may have a faster fire rate, but that doesn't help when you just hit him and you don't get away fast enough. The entire gametype is broken and unfair unless you have an amateur bots tutorial on how to play match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golteam

I expected to see that version 2.2 has a better netcode than the previous ones.

With that said, I think the bias stems from the individual balance more than the balance between the three.

Take tails for example. Tails can fly. To balance this, his flight is sluggish to get started, and difficult to steer when moving in a straight line. Also you can't fly for very long.

From a single player perspective, this prevents Tails from being the most optimal character for playing the game in general (despite them not entirely working, and Tails still being "easy mode"), to at the very least force tails into having to deal with hazards normally reserved for Sonic. Aerial obstacles don't work as well in 3D as they would in 2D, without lagging the pants off the game, or making players prefer taking the Sonic route anyway.

From multiplayer, and especially a combat mode, however, Tails's sluggishness self-balance is the flaw that makes him less... 'useful' (for lack of a better word) in match modes. He's slow to start flying, which leaves him vulnerable, easy to spot in the air, which leaves him vulnerable, and incapable of avoiding incoming damage due to the lack of mid-air cover. Also, his flight time is limited, which means if you don't carefully calculate the amount of time you spend in the air every time you fly, you will suddenly become 200% more vulnerable and gently drift to the floor. The "best" use Tails currently has in combat modes is as a 'stealth' character, but the combat modes don't award stealth, they award hits. And in the event of CTF, Tails becomes completely neutered and can't fly after picking up the flag, so even if you manage to slip by other players by staying out of sight, you have no exit once everyone is alerted that someone took their flag. At least with Sonic you can thok through the flag in the general direction of the exit, and get a head start.

Knuckles on the other hand suffers the most due to... facing the wall when he climbs it, really. He functions similarly as a 'stealth' character, but is slightly better than Tails in that regard since he isn't "out in the open" (and can afford to take his time in remaining as such since he doesn't have a vertical time limit)... But the same sort of flaws apply. With that said, I'd be inclined to play him if I could, say, climb a wall and shoot at the same time, or put myself in a solitary place on a wall where I could take pot-shots for a while before anyone notices.

I think the dynamic flaw is the game has one "offense" character and two "support" characters. Something needs tweaking, in at least the combat modes.

I know we've been over this on IRC, but I guess we've forgotten to mention it on the forums: match super forms are headed to the scrap yard.

There are a bunch of reasons why, but the most important one is that match supers are the worst kind of win-more mechanic. The player who is already winning is the only person who ever gets to experience the mechanic, and it just makes them even more completely unstoppable.

In case you all haven't noticed, one of the things we're actively trying to do to match is make it less harsh on the losers. 2.1's pity shield mechanic is the first step towards that, but we're going to be continuing to push for less mechanics that actively punish the losing players. Super forms are actively going against that policy.

Hence, since we're planning to delete them, we're not planning any changes to them.

I know I'm a little late to this post, but better late then never. I understand that you guys are trying to make match a easier for people with not as much experience, but honestly, it's come to a point where the challenge of match is slowly diminishing. We already have an option to switch off emeralds in match, right? This choice should be given to the host. Hence, if the host does not switch off the emeralds, it's his choice. I feel as if this is another mistake you guys are making, like the set rings and set lives feature removal in 2.1. It's our server, and I only wish more things like features from terminal.lua could be implemented into srb2 itself. Every server does not have to be nerfed, and instead the option should be given to the host instead of removing it all together. If the host is irresponsible, nothing is stopping the people in the game to leave. What I fear for Srb2's future is that every online server will be the same exact thing, and there will not be any diversity. (with the exception of wads and luas.) While you may not agree with me here, I feel as if the hosts should be given more power to their own server, because whats the point of hosting a server if you don't get to have a little fun.

But I drifted off from my main point. The harsh fact is, having everything equal is boring. In 2.0, the bombs were considered overpowered because of the shooting rate, and while I agree on 2.1's nerf, I still felt pretty good when I managed to figure out how to dodge bombs. Same with super. It gives you that satisfaction of winning. If you guys REALLY think Super is THAT overpowered, you could also try maybe putting a ring limit on there. Don't let super sonic pass 100 rings or something like that. But removing it is just taking away another way on trying to win a match. Match should be based on skill. If you don't have a certain amount of skill, tough luck, you have to try to get better. We all know how frustrating it is when trying to fight super, but there are already ways to prevent him. Plus, you have to collect 7 randomly scattered emeralds throughout the map. That's already pretty tough. Not to mention the recyclers, the pits, etc. etc.

Gosh I feel like I'm writing an essay. (Yet when I post this, the post isin't even gonna be that long). Anyway, Super forms should not be removed. Let's just leave it at that. :P

Spoiler:

Unless everyone already stated everything I said. To be honest, I did not read the newer posts about this.

__________________
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Spoiler:

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We already have an option to switch off emeralds in match, right? This choice should be given to the host. Hence, if the host does not switch off the emeralds, it's his choice. I feel as if this is another mistake you guys are making, like the set rings and set lives feature removal in 2.1.

I think you're misunderstanding here. We're not removing the emerald mechanic entirely. We're changing the reward for collecting all the emeralds in match to be something that doesn't ruin the game for everyone else. For more details WHY we're changing it, here's a post from earlier in this thread: http://mb.srb2.org/showpost.php?p=765312

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed2411

The harsh fact is, having everything equal is boring. In 2.0, the bombs were considered overpowered because of the shooting rate, and while I agree on 2.1's nerf, I still felt pretty good when I managed to figure out how to dodge bombs.

I think you're misunderstanding something fundamental. Competitive games are more interesting when there are a variety of options and strategies that are all viable. When one strategy is clearly the best, other possible strategies get pushed out of the game and the variety of the game goes down. Surely you played a ton of games back in 2.0 where basically everyone was using explosion and nothing else. The other options in the game were completely ignored because one option was so clearly the best.

While it's not important for the weapons to be individually perfectly balanced in a vacuum, it IS important for them all to be balanced enough that differences in play style and strategy allow them all to be used. Explosion is still a powerful weapon. It's just no longer the only weapon you should ever use and using another weapon no longer means you're bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed2411

Match should be based on skill. If you don't have a certain amount of skill, tough luck, you have to try to get better.

There's a major, important thing here that you're forgetting: beginners want to have fun too. When someone is losing so badly that they aren't having any fun, they simply quit and play a different game. If every losing player in a match isn't having fun and quits, you won't have any opponents to play and the skill of the game won't matter at all.

It's important that the mechanics of the game promote having fun for every player in the game and at all skill levels. The purpose of a game is to be fun for everyone playing, and one of the worst problems you can have in a game is a situation where the people playing aren't having fun. Super in match was causing that situation, and that's why it's being removed.

I think you're misunderstanding here. We're not removing the emerald mechanic entirely. We're changing the reward for collecting all the emeralds in match to be something that doesn't ruin the game for everyone else.

But a reward for collecting 7 chaos emeralds should be turning into super, don't you think? Honestly, that's the only thing that makes sense in my mind. (Exception of Chaos Control or chaos blast{Pretty much Armageddon shield}). I know I'm against change, and that's something I can't help. I'll try to be a little bit more open about a 'new' reward for collecting 7 chaos emeralds.

Quote:

I think you're misunderstanding something fundamental. Competitive games are more interesting when there are a variety of options and strategies that are all viable. When one strategy is clearly the best, other possible strategies get pushed out of the game and the variety of the game goes down. Surely you played a ton of games back in 2.0 where basically everyone was using explosion and nothing else. The other options in the game were completely ignored because one option was so clearly the best.

While it's not important for the weapons to be individually perfectly balanced in a vacuum, it IS important for them all to be balanced enough that differences in play style and strategy allow them all to be used. Explosion is still a powerful weapon. It's just no longer the only weapon you should ever use and using another weapon no longer means you're bad.

there is always going to be one strategy people keep on using. For 2.0, it's bomb. for 2.1, its bounce. If you guys keep nerfing the most used weapons, soon there really won't be much of a difference between the weapons. Take grenades for example. 2.0's grenades offered an advantage to those who are able to predict their enemy's movements. However, because of the recent chance, grenades now act as a weird bounce-bomb hybrid weapon that does not explode on collision with a player. Honestly, the only use grenades have at the moment are being spammed in a closed room, which could be used with bounces anyway.

Quote:

There's a major, important thing here that you're forgetting: beginners want to have fun too. When someone is losing so badly that they aren't having any fun, they simply quit and play a different game. If every losing player in a match isn't having fun and quits, you won't have any opponents to play and the skill of the game won't matter at all.

While I agree it could be degrading to be constantly shot back and forth with every weapon in the game, I don't see how changing the award for the emeralds can help this problem. Honestly, the server belongs to the host. This means that no one else in the server can have any say on how things could be run if the host wishes to be like that. If you have a good host, they can simply disable the emeralds in the server. If what you are saying is correct, the players who are loosing won't be able to collect the emeralds anyway, so changing the awards won't help the loosing players at all. Infact, it gets rid of a strategy a loosing player could use to attempt to get back into the game. Not many people check the scores constantly(unless your like me) which makes it easy for a player to simply collect the emeralds and reap the award of super.

Quote:

It's important that the mechanics of the game promote having fun for every player in the game and at all skill levels. The purpose of a game is to be fun for everyone playing, and one of the worst problems you can have in a game is a situation where the people playing aren't having fun. Super in match was causing that situation, and that's why it's being removed.

But the thing is, match is about winning. That's what every gametype in srb2 is about. Getting more points then the rest. Everyone has different styles of playing. I like using the rails. Others like using bombs. Others like to attempt to collect emeralds. While I agree Super Sonic should maybe get some sort of time limit to make sure they don't rule the match server, giving another reward won't seem right. Why not just have it that whoever ends super gets like 500 points or something. That seems a little bit more fair. Or disable Super from collecting rings. Or just leave him alone, because honestly Super does not bother me anyway. I doubt anyone saw this as an ACTUAL problem in srb2. Then again, I could be wrong.

__________________
Listen. I'm *Speed-Roid* Not you. Me! So I really don't want you using my name.

Spoiler:

Clearly, I controlled your mind to make you open this spoiler box. You cant resist my power!! I shall control your mind. ^_^

there is always going to be one strategy people keep on using. For 2.0, it's bomb. for 2.1, its bounce. If you guys keep nerfing the most used weapons, soon there really won't be much of a difference between the weapons.

I'd disagree. When I'm playing match or CTF, I typically use bomb for its blast radius or automatic for its proficiency at area denial. Different people have different strategies that involve different weapons, and making sure each weapon can be viable is an important part of gameplay balance. If this means nerfing some weapons, then that's how it has to be. (I will say I don't entirely agree with the grenade nerf, though..)

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed2411

Honestly, the server belongs to the host. This means that no one else in the server can have any say on how things could be run if the host wishes to be like that. If you have a good host, they can simply disable the emeralds in the server.

So you're saying we should leave in options that are proven not fun because the host could disable them? The host could also add a Lua script to reimplement match emeralds if they wanted to play with them. The difference is the defaults need to be as fair as possible for people, because most people won't change them, and their impression of the game will be affected by whether the win-more mechanic is default or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed2411

But the thing is, match is about winning.

This is an elitist attitude to have. While yes, awarding skill is good and being the best is a good thing to strive for, it's important to make sure the people losing are having fun. I've quit playing online games multiple times because I'd get so annihilated that I wasn't having fun any more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed2411

because honestly Super does not bother me anyway. I doubt anyone saw this as an ACTUAL problem in srb2.

And this is a selfish attitude! You might like super and that's great, but it doesn't mean that other people don't see it as a problem. The decision to remove match super wasn't something thought up on a whim by the guy in charge; we did weigh our options, and eventually decide that match super wasn't a well-balanced game mechanic and couldn't really be salvaged.

(Now, there are some things I don't agree with others on the team on, like Mystic's wanting to remove Tag. I wanna retool it to play like that supervirus mod I made...)