Working with the raw elements (air earth fire water space)is a process of connecting with the external elements and internalizing their qualities.Ultimately we can merge with the element. We connect the external quality with the internal quality and then dissolve the distinctions.Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

gregkavarnos wrote:So you are saying that true compassion only arises via pointing out? Is that why everybody here has devoted their lives to voluntarily assisting lepers in Bangladesh?

What I said was that unlimited compassion arises from recognizing your real nature. I also said that compassion was innate and everyone has it.

The question was directed towards Sonams statement. I am not saying that compassion is not innate, but whether one recognises their real nature via pointing out or via a gradual didactic approach is ultimately irrelevant. What is bizarre to me is to consider didactic approaches "contrived" in contrast to instantaneous approaches as uncontrived. True compassion, whether it is arrived at (realised) gradually through Lojong/Lam Rim practices or whether arrived at instantaneously through pointing out can never be contrived. Pretending to be compassionate is contrived. (Yes, I know you said this, I'm just repeating it for others sake).

Back to the walking example: you gotta fall over and bruise yourself a number of times before you can walk.

This is apparent even in the direct introduction approach coz seeing it once is not enough. You lose sight, then you see it again, then... until it is stablised. Thus it is obviously as contrived (or uncontrived) as having it taught to you.

And back to the leper example, I am sure mother Theresa did not have a Dzogchen master point out her innate compassion to her, not in this lifetime anyway.

Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun May 20, 2012 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If even the Lonchen Nyingtig contains a graduated method (and gradual realization) then we should accept that instantaneous vs gradual depends on a lot of things, such as the practitioner's abilities and so on. There is no right and wrong way. The development of compassion needs all the help it can get.

gregkavarnos wrote:So you are saying that true compassion only arises via pointing out? Is that why everybody here has devoted their lives to voluntarily assisting lepers in Bangladesh?

What I said was that unlimited compassion arises from recognizing your real nature. I also said that compassion was innate and everyone has it.

The question was directed towards Sonams statement. I am not saying that compassion is not innate, but if one recognises their real nature via pointing out or via a gradual didactic approach is ultimately irrelevant. What is bizarre to me is to consider didactic approaches "contrived" in contrast to instantaneous approaches as uncontrived. True compassion, whether it is arrived at (realised) gradually through Lojong/Lam Rim practices or whether arrived at instantaneously through pointing out can never be contrived. Pretending to be compassionate is contrived. (Yes, I know you said this, I'm just repeating it for others sake).

Back to the walking example: you gotta fall over and bruise yourself a number of times before you can walk.

This is apparent even in the direct introduction approach coz seeing it once is not enough. You lose sight, then you see it again, then... until it is stablised. Thus it is obviously as contrived (or uncontrived) as having it taught to you.

And back to the leper example, I am sure mother Theresa did not have a Dzogchen master point out her innate compassion to her, not in this lifetime anyway.

Hi Greg,

I am not talking about true compassion versus contrived.

No one needs to meditate on compassion for hours and days. of course, cultivating the four immeasrubles is a good thing, but do you know what its function really is? Accumulating merit. Now this is not bad, of course. But what results from accumulating merit? Just a better body in samsara, that's all.

When we see suffering, we respond with empathy, unless we are a twisted f#ck.

What I was talking about was the difference between bound compassion and boundless compassion.

We all have bound compassion. Boundless compassion only comes from discovering our real nature. In Mahāyāna, this may mean cultivating compassion in a meaningful way through many kinds of practices. Of course, if someone wants to do that, that is fantastic -- who does not want people in the world who are more compassionate?

The problem with Mahāyāna is that this kind of cultivation takes eons.

But if you wish to have boundless compassion without waiting eons, then it is better for you to go to a Dzogchen master or a Mahāmudra master, receive introduction and discover your real nature as fast as possible.

mindyourmind wrote:If even the Lonchen Nyingtig contains a graduated method (and gradual realization) then we should accept that instantaneous vs gradual depends on a lot of things, such as the practitioner's abilities and so on. There is no right and wrong way. The development of compassion needs all the help it can get.

Jigme Lingpa himself is said to have favored a gradual approach.

Hi Mym:

It all depends on how fast you want that compassion express itself fully, rapidly or slowly.

If you are convinced that you need gradual methods, then there is no point trying to tell you otherwise. It is best to impart to you those methods. If you wish to practice Dzogchen, then compassion is inherent in the path without needing copious amounts of cultivation. Compassion is released merely from recognizing your true condition.

mindyourmind wrote:If even the Lonchen Nyingtig contains a graduated method (and gradual realization) then we should accept that instantaneous vs gradual depends on a lot of things, such as the practitioner's abilities and so on. There is no right and wrong way. The development of compassion needs all the help it can get.

Jigme Lingpa himself is said to have favored a gradual approach.

Hi Mym:

It all depends on how fast you want that compassion express itself fully, rapidly or slowly.

If you are convinced that you need gradual methods, then there is no point trying to tell you otherwise. It is best to impart to you those methods. If you wish to practice Dzogchen, then compassion is inherent in the path without needing copious amounts of cultivation. Compassion is released merely from recognizing your true condition.

Really.

M

I'm not talking about (just)myself. You have a large following here, and I am concerned that anything that looks like a subtle rejection of gradual methods can be misunderstood and do much harm. We are talking about important issues here, concepts that can be easily misunderstood. This fine line is one of the reasons why Dzogchen has been kept secret in the past, why it should only be approached when the student is ready.

An unconditional sales talk can be harmful.

Another point I'm making is that Dzogchen itself (if such a monolithic view can ever be found)does not really consistently propose a sudden approach.

We are also, in some of the discussions so far, on the verge of confusing whether compassion is inherent, and whether the methods to cultivate it, are sudden or gradual.

mindyourmind wrote:I'm not talking about (just)myself. You have a large following here, and I am concerned that anything that looks like a subtle rejection of gradual methods can be misunderstood and do much harm.

I have stated over and over again, it is everyone's responsibility to discover for themselves what is useful.

We are talking about important issues here, concepts that can be easily misunderstood. This fine line is one of the reasons why Dzogchen has been kept secret in the past, why it should only be approached when the student is ready.

The reason Dzogchen was kept secret in the past is because of the hostility it garnered from Buddhists since its inception. Now Dzogchen is out in the world, and it not within the clutches of Tibetan Buddhists anymore. This does not mean we can ignore things like transmission, lineage and so on. But it does mean that we can speak more freely to those who are interested in what the real point of view of Dzogchen is itself. And it is not the gradual system the Nyingmapas were forced to adopt to forstall criticisms of the Kadampa influenced hegemony.

Another point I'm making is that Dzogchen itself (if such a monolithic view can ever be found)does not really consistently propose a sudden approach.

If by Dzogchen, we are referring to the what Dzogchen tantras themselves state quite clearly, then this is not correct.

If we are talking about how Dzogchen has been presented by the Nyingma school under intense pressure from its opponents, then it is true, Nyingma presents Dzogchen as a graduated path. But the point of view of the Nyingma school and the point of view of Dzogchen are not necessarily the same thing.

We are also, in some of the discussions so far, on the verge of confusing whether compassion is inherent, and whether the methods to cultivate it, are sudden or gradual.

In Mahāyāna, as I stated, compassion is gradually cultivated over many lifetimes.

In Dzogchen, there is little need to "cultivate" compassion since compassion is recognized a) to be innate b) will be expanded up by recognizing your own state.

I know many Mahāyāna pratitioners who cultivate compassion for many years, who are like rocks in the bottom of the ocean. They talk about compassion a lot, but never stop to help anyone or anything.

I know many non-buddhists who never "cultivated" compassion even once in their lives. But they are always helpful, without restraint.

I have little confidence in the canned meditations of the gradual system. They sure did not work for me when I was in retreat, so I abandoned them in favor of a more experiential approach. I just recognized that I had compassion, that I often acted compassionately, and then continued to move in the direction. I built on what I had, and expanded it -- rather than just sitting on my ass running through canned meditation topics. This is much better than sitting around with a Lam rim book in hand and practicing scales.

We all have compassion. So the way to increase it is to simply see that we have it, and exercise that muscle a bit more.

Then, when we recognize our true condition, our compassion will burst out like the sun behind a cloud.

mindyourmind wrote:If even the Lonchen Nyingtig contains a graduated method (and gradual realization) then we should accept that instantaneous vs gradual depends on a lot of things, such as the practitioner's abilities and so on. There is no right and wrong way. The development of compassion needs all the help it can get.

Jigme Lingpa himself is said to have favored a gradual approach.

Hi Mym:

It all depends on how fast you want that compassion express itself fully, rapidly or slowly.

If you are convinced that you need gradual methods, then there is no point trying to tell you otherwise. It is best to impart to you those methods. If you wish to practice Dzogchen, then compassion is inherent in the path without needing copious amounts of cultivation. Compassion is released merely from recognizing your true condition.

Really.

M

I'm not talking about (just)myself. You have a large following here, and I am concerned that anything that looks like a subtle rejection of gradual methods can be misunderstood and do much harm. We are talking about important issues here, concepts that can be easily misunderstood. This fine line is one of the reasons why Dzogchen has been kept secret in the past, why it should only be approached when the student is ready.

An unconditional sales talk can be harmful.

Another point I'm making is that Dzogchen itself (if such a monolithic view can ever be found)does not really consistently propose a sudden approach.

We are also, in some of the discussions so far, on the verge of confusing whether compassion is inherent, and whether the methods to cultivate it, are sudden or gradual.

It's a big subject, one that should be approached carefully.

I thought much the same as this. My impulse was to really question whether Dzogchen was possible at all without a foundation in Madhyamaka. Malcolm remains convinced that it is and he has managed to put forward many convincing arguments that support his case. His large following here is warranted. I think even ChNN might have thought differently at one stage but now Dzogchen is presented as it is and I for one am open enough to say that yes Dzogchen could be the most effective teaching for a fast recognition of real nature and hence liberation.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Malcolm wrote:We all have compassion. So the way to increase it is to simply see that we have it, and exercise that muscle a bit more.

M

What is the difference between, exercising that muscle a bit more and cultivating compassion? They are both a conscious attempt to be more compassionate just worded differently.

The Buddhist approach alway starts out by suggesting that everyone has a compassion deficit. I don't agree. Some people's compassion is not developed however even after years of Lam rim meditation. This is so easy to see.

Malcolm wrote:We all have compassion. So the way to increase it is to simply see that we have it, and exercise that muscle a bit more.

M

What is the difference between, exercising that muscle a bit more and cultivating compassion? They are both a conscious attempt to be more compassionate just worded differently.

The Buddhist approach alway starts out by suggesting that everyone has a compassion deficit. I don't agree. Some people's compassion is not developed however even after years of Lam rim meditation. This is so easy to see.

So, I think a different approach is needed.

M

"Liberating compassion" was suggested to me as a nice alternative to "cultivating compassion."

Malcolm wrote:We all have compassion. So the way to increase it is to simply see that we have it, and exercise that muscle a bit more.

M

What is the difference between, exercising that muscle a bit more and cultivating compassion? They are both a conscious attempt to be more compassionate just worded differently.

The Buddhist approach alway starts out by suggesting that everyone has a compassion deficit. I don't agree. Some people's compassion is not developed however even after years of Lam rim meditation. This is so easy to see.

So, I think a different approach is needed.

M

The same applies to dzogchen, isn't it? And it applies to every tradition, whether mahayana or any other... but that claim suggests invalidity of lamrim, or any other path including the highest or those beyond, does not matter how we call them... But if so then every path or vehicle would be pointless.

The result does not have to manifest within confined scope of our perception and memory of single life. What does not get its fruition now, will get in the future. If different approach is suggested since we can observe the lack of result, whatever it might be - compassion enlightenment, dzogchen attainment - then we would end up in total dissatisfaction, unable to follow any path... buddhist or non-buddhist. Rather everything is needed according to the particular affinity individuals have.

I have seen many practitioners who after decades of practice are still same arrogant, not loving, self obsessed, and what? Does it mean that the path or approach is wrong? I do not think so... and I share same problems like everyone around me. But finally it is only a personal obstacle which makes things not working, yet. Not the approach or the path... be it lamrim or whatever.

If I'm being really honest I would prefer to give up the idea of liberation or enlightenment and actually help someone in a contrived way. Cook a delicious meal for someone. Talk to lonely people. All this talk of understanding a great truth is actually having the reverse effect for me. I don't want to be enlightened - I just want to help people. I don't want to retreat - I just want to communicate. I'll take a contrived buddhist path that doesn't drop the ethics over ultimate view and real nature any day of the week.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:If I'm being really honest I would prefer to give up the idea of liberation or enlightenment and actually help someone in a contrived way. Cook a delicious meal for someone. Talk to lonely people. All this talk of understanding a great truth is actually having the reverse effect for me. I don't want to be enlightened - I just want to help people. I don't want to retreat - I just want to communicate. I'll take a contrived buddhist path that doesn't drop the ethics over ultimate view and real nature any day of the week.

One of the recent manifestations of perfect spontaneous compassion was Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. Apart from his spontaneous actions he also spoke fast in a strange automated way too as though he was in fact not making any effort. Yet he was always correct and eloquent too. When asked why he mainly teaches compassion, he said that is the route to enlightenment and that is also how the Buddha said he achieved enlightenment.

Andrew108 wrote:Thanks Username - great video. I understand dependent origination and the importance of ethics - I approach the truth though my own actions and from the side of dependent origination - However long it takes this is the path I'm on - no short cuts for me - perhaps I don't have the karma and I can admit that. Here is my inspiration: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... -girl.html And this news makes a big splash in one of the worst newspapers in the U.K.

Thanks for posting that Andrew, very touching. Although with rigpa, compassion manifests in many ways and later dimensions without effort or sometimes knowing, it also softens the heart to receive the knowledge and then progress on that unbounded spacious and empathetic path. Tsoknyi Rinpoche texts really opened up Dzogchen for me originally then his dad. Don't judge yourself harshly or expect any results as we are often told, I think you are doing fine. Best wishes.http://www.tsoknyirinpoche.org/teaching ... tradition/

Andrew108 wrote:If I'm being really honest I would prefer to give up the idea of liberation or enlightenment and actually help someone in a contrived way. Cook a delicious meal for someone. Talk to lonely people. All this talk of understanding a great truth is actually having the reverse effect for me. I don't want to be enlightened - I just want to help people. I don't want to retreat - I just want to communicate. I'll take a contrived buddhist path that doesn't drop the ethics over ultimate view and real nature any day of the week.

Why feel you needed to choose between the path to liberation and enlightenment and helping people in a normal way in the here and now? You can do both fully, and they will only mutually reinforce each other. I'm a Dzogchen practitioner and I make my living caring for seniors--and believe me, it's much more than just a job to me. I love those people and feel compelled to do way more than just what I'm obligated to do, and many of them make it clear that they love me back and communicate what they feel I bring to their lives. It's very heartwarming and it both infuses my practice with warmth and life while also being enhanced by my practice. And that is the way it is supposed to work.

Plus, when I realize ultimate realization, "my" ability to benefit them will not be limited by lack of wisdom or compassion or a single concrete, impermanent body. And of course, being a practitioner I can help people create good causes right now. Case in point, an elderly lady at work found out I am a Buddhist because a Buddhist lady I know also lives there and told her, so she began asking me to sing her some Buddhist chants at bedtime. Now I sing her the SoV at bedtime almost every time I work... I wish you could see her smile. And there are also tons of ways to help people without them even knowing it, if that's an issue.

Andrew108 wrote:If I'm being really honest I would prefer to give up the idea of liberation or enlightenment and actually help someone in a contrived way. Cook a delicious meal for someone. Talk to lonely people. All this talk of understanding a great truth is actually having the reverse effect for me. I don't want to be enlightened - I just want to help people. I don't want to retreat - I just want to communicate. I'll take a contrived buddhist path that doesn't drop the ethics over ultimate view and real nature any day of the week.

Why feel you needed to choose between the path to liberation and enlightenment and helping people in a normal way in the here and now? You can do both fully, and they will only mutually reinforce each other. I'm a Dzogchen practitioner and I make my living caring for seniors--and believe me, it's much more than just a job to me. I love those people and feel compelled to do way more than just what I'm obligated to do, and many of them make it clear that they love me back and communicate what they feel I bring to their lives. It's very heartwarming and it both infuses my practice with warmth and life while also being enhanced by my practice. And that is the way it is supposed to work.

Plus, when I realize ultimate realization, "my" ability to benefit them will not be limited by lack of wisdom or compassion or a single concrete, impermanent body. And of course, being a practitioner I can help people create good causes right now. Case in point, an elderly lady at work found out I am a Buddhist because a Buddhist lady I know also lives there and told her, so she began asking me to sing her some Buddhist chants at bedtime. Now I sing her the SoV at bedtime almost every time I work... I wish you could see her smile. And there are also tons of ways to help people without them even knowing it, if that's an issue.

Hi Pema,Me and my enlightenment is not the sort of game I'm involved in.If there is any use for dharma it is that it clears me and my agendas away.Dharma is not for my benefit - to make me into something - and so really I don't mind anymore about choosing one dharma over another.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.