Nice Marmot wrote:Yeah, I know about the comics. Decided I'd hold off on them til I finally reread the books back to back.

How many comic series are there? Several mini-series right? Assuming they'll be compiled, if they haven't already been.

Are they any good? They're not actually written by King are they?

There is...-The Gunslinger Born (a retelling of events from Roland's childhood initially found in The Gunslinger and Wizard & Glass)-The Long Road Home -Treachery-The Fall of Gilead-Battle of Jericho Hill-The Gunslinger

They're all available (or will be) as collections (hardcover)

King gave the stories to his personal research assistant Robin Furth and she then fleshed them out and wrote the stories for the comics. I have thoroughly enjoyed them so far, but I haven't read The Fall of Gillead or Jericho Hill yet. And when checking out Wikipedia, I think that was the first I had heard of The Gunslinger.

Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)

I've had few loooooong subway rides recently so retook up The Dark Tower trilogy, currently on The Wastelands. I am in turns blown away by King's sheer imagination and perversity... and , as usual, appalled. I really should spend more time tracking down more Tolkien.

Whilst I try and figure it out in my head... ANYONE CARE TO HELP ME FIGURE IT OUT!?!?

Seriously folks, what I type below spoils the entire ending, so don't read it if you haven't read the books, and might want to.

I guess I'd say that a pessimist would say that King can't write an ending to save his life, and King knows that, so he kinda punted (in the American football sense meaning to give up and kick the ball to the other team).

I tend to buy a little more into the idea that the story, and specifically Roland's quest, is about the journey, not the destination (I wonder how many times that trite phrase has been said or typed in connection with this book). It IS a bit trite, but i can buy it in this case. As is said constantly in the books, Ka is a wheel. This is taken pretty literally in Roland's case. He is essentially caught in a time loop. His journey isn't without purpose. I think the real "tangible" goal of the quest is to save the dark tower and universe from destruction. Roland does that by releasing/killing the breakers and by destroying the Crimson King. He just doesn't get his "reward" for saving the tower, which is to reach its pinnacle and question whomever is there.

I think he is destined to continue his loop (and perhaps has been looping for centuries or longer) until he is able to break his obsession with the Tower and understand that his methods in getting to the Tower (and how he treats those he encounters on the way there) is more important than getting there. Early in the series he lets Jake drop to his death rather than being delayed in his goal. We also know that instead of stopping to pick up the Horn of Eld at Jericho Hill, he left it behind to pursue the Tower. By the end of the series he seems almost ready to give up his quest altogether if it could save the rest of his Ka Tet. He ultimately goes forward almost more in their honor than due to his obsession. Which shows that Roland is changing and that you can teach an old dog new tricks. In order to make it into the top level of the Tower, Roland needs to understand that his quest isn't about just reaching the Tower, per se.

I think he does carry some of these changes over each time he loops. The biggest indication of that is the fact that when he loops at the end of the book, he has the Horn of Eld with him, which is a change. This time, he is at least the type of man who will pause in his quest to collect this sacred relic from Cuthbert's body and not leave it behind. In the Robert Browning poem "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came" the poem abruptly ends with Roland blowing his horn at the tower. In the previous loops, Roland did not have the horn with him to do this. This COULD indicate that the loop that we witnessed was the penultimate loop in the cycle, and he'll finally be able to reach the top level this time.

Specifically, I liked most of this book a lot. I don't really have a problem with the ending. A lot of King's earlier books had a pretty simplistic end (kill the bad guy, or escape) following a massive buildup. I liked the fact that this ending made me think a little. I thought that the "demise" of the Crimson King was pretty weak...much more of a reversion to the simplistic "huge buildup, weak resolution" that has plagued King over the years. There was no real interaction between TCK and Roland. Basically he was just a crazy old dude hanging out on a balcony throwing sneetches. Less real danger here even than when they faced the Wolves of the Calla. Same can be said of Mordred, really. They spent 2 books of this series building up to the Mordred-Roland encounter, and it felt pretty weak.

I did really like the stuff with Dandelo, at least partially because of the cross-over with IT and Pennywise. And despite the weak resolutions to the Crimson King and Mordred stories, I did generally find the end of the series pretty satisfying, and I do love the series as a whole.

Kirk, I'd love to know what you think. And others who have read it and might disagree with or add to what I wrote. There are a lot of possible interpretations of the end.

Don't feel that all that black stuff was in vain, dude, as I am still working the end out in my head, and some subconscious rumination is still to be done. Though some vague convo rather than a detailed one I could get into right now.

I do have an idea though, and as someone said above "Ka is a wheel" is my theory. I will check in with your post later though, that's a definite, and I'm sure others will have black block comments on yours too.

Meanwhile, maybe it seems that Roland is doomed to be the guy who repeatedly is going on this circle doing what he can to keep the world going, his fight of good vs evil is an eternal one and God is doing this all the time. So maybe his actual adventure is also a symbolic one. Forget time travel, it seems that Roland's restart is some form of everlasting fight that's keeping us all going, only as with different worlds, he has different versions. Picking up that horn is a sign that he might get it right enough this time so he can break free from this repeated cycle. A 1000 year Groundhog Day if you will?

I dunno, maybe I'm talking shite here and need to get more deep into it.

I don't know. By the end there it seems King was going out of his way to connect his other books to this shit, shoehorning in characters and so forth. The end result was kind of a clunky mess. The Dark Tower starts, then it stops. Then stuff doesn't really happen for a while, then something happens that we'd been led to believe would be cool or meaningful or exciting and then wasn't, then we get introduced to a bunch of characters who are quickly discarded. And don't get me started on the fucking mute with his sketchpad. There is some really good stuff in there, like when characters we've followed through the series get fucking dead. That stuff was emotional. But Jesus Christ is it tedious. I mean after they stop the breaking of the Beams and actually save the Tower just how many goddamn pages are left in the book? I don't have an exact figure but I'm going to go with a fucking lot. And that Dandelo crap. Jesus. Fuck.

The last three books all suffer from the same problems, save Song of Susannah which suffers from one less in that it's fucking short and actually fun to read. Especially after the bloated Wolves of the Calla introduced Star Wars, Dr. Doom and fucking Harry Potter to the story. That's after the two hundred pages of Father Callahan washing dishes in a fucking homeless shelter or whatever.

Personally, I think King killed the series when he put himself in the story. And don't give me that fucking shit about how "meta" it is. If I hear one more person tell me something is meta I'm gonna fucking be upset. That's what. All it succeeded in was taking me completely out of the story. I was no longer a guy reading a book about a guy going on a quest. Now I was a guy reading a book about a guy in a book going on a quest written by a guy who the guy later meets on his quest and I'm reading a book about it.

It is my hope that in the eventual movie/tv version that Roland has the horn with him and that it is the final loop.

I knew how it was going to end word-for-word at some point halfway through the series. After a while you get beaten over the head with the whole "Ka is like a wheel" mantra so much that it's difficult to not expect the given ending. It was the afterword that made me roll my eyes - not because it was necessarily bad, but because it didn't need to be told. I wish he would have left that part ambiguous.

Flagg going out like a bitch is still one of my biggest gripes. All those books... all that pain and suffering he directly caused..... just to be killed by a shitty character that slowed down the story. I still love the overall story though, the good and the bad.

Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)

Yeah I'm with ya on the wheely thingy. Though unlike you, or my dismissal that things are set in stone like this, I didn't see it coming and did need a bit of afterwording. I'm still pondering on it though, will come to my conclusions later on - and let you knoooowww!!!

Unless I at this second don't remember and it will come back to me... Some unanswered questions I still need answering...What the heck happened toRhea of the Coos? How did she die? Still uncertain about the Wizard of Oz thing too. How did that happen?

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Yeah I'm with ya on the wheely thingy. Though unlike you, or my dismissal that things are set in stone like this, I didn't see it coming and did need a bit of afterwording. 'm still pondering on it though, will come to my conclusions later on - and let you knoooowww!!!

Unless I at this second don't remember and it will come back to me... Some unanswered questions I still need answering...What the heck happened toRhea of the Coos? How did she die? Still uncertain about the Wizard of Oz thing too. How did that happen?

I also needed the afterward the first time I read it. It was like I was saying to myself, "no way, no way, noooooooooo" but reading that I changed to, "alright wheely thing."

To answer your questions:1. I don't think Rhea ever did die. I could be wrong. There is more about her in the comics where she and Marten make a bargain so that she doesn't die prior to Roland's union with Susan. I don't know much more than that.2.I think the Oz thing is just a plot device and isn't the only reference to other literature in the series. First it is based on Robert Browning's poem, you got some Charles Dickens, Lord of the Flies, Watership Down...etc. It just works for Wizard of Oz at this particular spot and I think we have Flag who thinks it's funny that the ka tet look like the characters from the Wizard of Oz story. They are following a highway (although it isn't yellow bricked)... Susannah is Dorothy and she holds them together, Jake is the Lion because he is courageous, Eddie is the Tin Man because he is ruled by his heart, Roland is the Scarecrow because he is logical, Oy is obviously Toto, Rhea of the Coos in the pink ball with a pointy hat is the Wicked Witch of the West and Marten fancies himself the Wizard who holds all the futures of all the worlds in his hands. The emerald castle in the middle of the road is a gate they must cross in order to go home again (to Roland's world) like Dorothy wants to go home and finally the Wizard's glass or the wizard's rainbow represents the existence of other worlds like it does in the Wizard of Oz.

The odd connections in Wizard & Glass not only include Wizard of Oz, but also The Stand. I actually yelled out "Holy Shit!!" when this connection was made obvious. I was also disappointed that was the only connection to that world.

Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Yeah I'm with ya on the wheely thingy. Though unlike you, or my dismissal that things are set in stone like this, I didn't see it coming and did need a bit of afterwording. 'm still pondering on it though, will come to my conclusions later on - and let you knoooowww!!!

Unless I at this second don't remember and it will come back to me... Some unanswered questions I still need answering...What the heck happened toRhea of the Coos? How did she die? Still uncertain about the Wizard of Oz thing too. How did that happen?

I also needed the afterward the first time I read it. It was like I was saying to myself, "no way, no way, noooooooooo" but reading that I changed to, "alright wheely thing."

To answer your questions:1. I don't think Rhea ever did die. I could be wrong. There is more about her in the comics where she and Marten make a bargain so that she doesn't die prior to Roland's union with Susan. I don't know much more than that.

That's all I got... and it's just my take so feel free to disagree.

But in answer to Q1... In The Wolves of the Calla or is it Song of Susannah, in the cave where the door is there are voices, presumed to be of the dead, and Rhea is one of those voices. Back in Wizard and Glass Roland, I think in the Wizard of Oz palace, makes a reference to Rhea and I think that he caught up with her, and makes a face which means 'Death'.

Then there is anotehr reference back to his past I think in Song of Susannah where references a Witch and something to do with her taking away his eye or him having to have a false eye because of this? Maybe my memory is hazy, but I swear I read this. I thought I'd get more answers here, now I have to Wiki it?

Fievel wrote:I'm way behind in the Dark Tower comics. I need to catch up.

The odd connections in Wizard & Glass not only include Wizard of Oz, but also The Stand. I actually yelled out "Holy Shit!!" when this connection was made obvious. I was also disappointed that was the only connection to that world.

I was actually traveling down Interstate 70 from Topeka west when I started to read The Wizard and The Glass, so that was kind of reaky and meta

that and when Roland is talking about the Big Coffin Hunters and Jonas and their fates, a neighboring town to the one I live in is mentioned where they come to their end (Oakley)

Stephen King used to stop in my home town and eat at a buffet/steakhouse here when he'd travel from Boulder to Maine, met the man once, really cool dude

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Don't feel that all that black stuff was in vain, dude...

i would say all of Moo's "black stuff" WAS in vain if you're just going to repeat it all and NOT spoiler-text it.

But I DIDN'T repeat it all. I didn't even read it, well a line here and there, which coincidentally was about the wheel. Hmm, OK, maybe that does give a bit away. Re-edits and Spoils wheel.

Thanks for your answers to my questions too.

here, let me help you with that then.

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Don't feel that all that black stuff was in vain, dude, as I am still working the end out in my head, and some subconscious rumination is still to be done. Though some vague convo rather than a detailed one I could get into right now.

I do have an idea though, and as someone said above "Ka is a wheel" is my theory. I will check in with your post later though, that's a definite, and I'm sure others will have black block comments on yours too.

Meanwhile, maybe it seems that Roland is doomed to be the guy who repeatedly is going on this circle doing what he can to keep the world going, his fight of good vs evil is an eternal one and God is doing this all the time. So maybe his actual adventure is also a symbolic one. Forget time travel, it seems that Roland's restart is some form of everlasting fight that's keeping us all going, only as with different worlds, he has different versions. Picking up that horn is a sign that he might get it right enough this time so he can break free from this repeated cycle. A 1000 year Groundhog Day if you will?

I dunno, maybe I'm talking shite here and need to get more deep into it.

Cpt Kirks 2pay wrote:Be great to know that I don't have to leave this world now and that I can still go back.

I'm with you there. Going back to the books and re-reading is good and all, but getting something new in this series - where anything can and DOES happen... that's exciting. And if this story is good, and makes sense within the series, I'm all for him going back every now and then. I just hope he finds some time to team up with Peter Straub and finish off the Jack Sawyer series (The Talisman, Black House).

Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)

TheBaxter wrote:i guess i'm the only person not too excited by this. dark tower feels finished enough for me, going back to it seems a bit pointless.

After finishing Book 7 back in the day, I remember thinking that there were gaps between books 1-5 that could be filled in - since books 5-7 are essentially one long story. While I'm excited for more DT stories, I'm just slightly bummed at the "era" of this new book (Young Roland). This seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to what's going on with the Dark Tower comics - that King (and his assistant Robin Furth) have been so into/involved with this early period of Roland's life so long (since '07?) that a book would ultimately come out as well. From what I understand, the formula of this book is similar to that of Wizard & Glass - intro is "current" Roland and his ka-tet and then stories of old are told.

It's not ideal for me, but I'll take it.

Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)

TheBaxter wrote:i guess i'm the only person not too excited by this. dark tower feels finished enough for me, going back to it seems a bit pointless.

After finishing Book 7 back in the day, I remember thinking that there were gaps between books 1-5 that could be filled in - since books 5-7 are essentially one long story. While I'm excited for more DT stories, I'm just slightly bummed at the "era" of this new book (Young Roland). This seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to what's going on with the Dark Tower comics - that King (and his assistant Robin Furth) have been so into/involved with this early period of Roland's life so long (since '07?) that a book would ultimately come out as well. From what I understand, the formula of this book is similar to that of Wizard & Glass - intro is "current" Roland and his ka-tet and then stories of old are told.

It's not ideal for me, but I'll take it.

Well, one thing is that it is supposed to be a story within a story. It also is supposed to be about when Roland captured an invisible man which he mentions to Jake under the mountain in The Gunslinger and promises to tell him but doesn't before Jake dies. I'm looking forward to it regardless.

TheBaxter wrote:i guess i'm the only person not too excited by this. dark tower feels finished enough for me, going back to it seems a bit pointless.

After finishing Book 7 back in the day, I remember thinking that there were gaps between books 1-5 that could be filled in

So... he's not really filling in any gap at all if it's just flashback to a younger Roland story. Pointless?

Not really... and I hadn't realized this:

justcheckin wrote:It also is supposed to be about when Roland captured an invisible man which he mentions to Jake under the mountain in The Gunslinger and promises to tell him but doesn't before Jake dies. I'm looking forward to it regardless.

Achievement Unlocked: TOTAL DOMINATION (Win a Werewolf Game without losing a single player on your team)

I wonder if the ebook version comes out on the same day. I'll probably buy it but I don't know that I can start it until June. I have so much work to do and I'm trying to get through the 3rd dragon tattoo book so I'll have to finish that first. Damn, too bad we can't read books for a living. It would never be books we wanted to read.