Dirk Nowitzki scored a season-high 40 points, and the Dallas Mavericks recovered from a cold start to beat New Orleans 110-107 on Saturday night for their second win in as many days against the Pelicans.

There was a pair of rain delays at an NBA game on Saturday night, a curious happening followed by another strange turn of events: The Houston Rockets built a 25-point lead, lost all of it and then some, then rallied from five down late in the fourth quarter for a 114-107 win over the Washington Wizards.

PHILADELPHIA — Amar’e Stoudemire played above the rim against the Sixers, throwing down three monstrous dunks on his way to 21 points on 8-for-10 shooting in the Knicks’ 102-92 win in Philly. “He’s getting his power back and he’s getting his confidence back,” Carmelo Anthony said. “I think when he plays like that and we start believing in him a little bit more, he’s only going to get better.”Stoudemire has been pretty strong of late, scoring 35 points over his past 49 minutes of playing time.

PHILADELPHIA — So what did J.R. Smith learn from this whole shoelace fiasco?”Don’t goof around, I guess. Be serious. Be a professional. And just don’t take this opportunity here you have for granted,” he said. “There’s a lot of people in this world that want our jobs. You can’t take it for granted. It can be taken away just that fast.”Smith returned to the court Saturday for the New York Knicks in Philly after being benched one game (and one quarter) for his shoelace antics.

The big freeze-out ended at the start of the second quarter. J.R. Smith — who began the day by saying he wasn't sure when he would play again for the Knicks — broke from the team's huddle, peeled off his warm-up shirt and joined his teammates in what would become a 102-92 win over the Philadelphia 76ers Saturday night.

There is no guarantee that the way the Knicks are playing basketball the past couple of weeks will hold, there are still too many holes on this team to see it making a run in the playoffs, even in an Eastern Conference as full of holes as well, the Chris Christie administration.

The fact that he works for James (Guitar Jimmy) Dolan has engendered media sympathy for Mike Woodson. Yet it’s nothing compared to the love he gets for dealing with the gift that keeps on giving — Mr. J.R. Smith. Following Thursday’s win over Miami in the Gulag, it was no mystery who shot, er, benched J.R.

The J.R. Smith saga resoundingly was trumped by the news of Alex Rodriguez’s season-long PED suspension earlier in the day. But the briefly ostracized Knicks guard perhaps took a small step toward rewriting his storyline and regaining his shoe-laced footing with an unexpected, rebound performance on Saturday night.

77 comments on “Knicks Morning News (2014.01.12)”

Wasn’t there a time when Mike Lupica was a respectable columnist? It seems like so long ago. It’s great that the Knicks are playing well and all, but that Woodson-bootlick of an article was so full of platitudes (and devoid of analysis and fact) it could overload Bill Belichick’s robotic cliche processors.

No, I don’t believe the knicks are going anywhere this season. At best, a low seed playoff and a quick out against Miami or Indiana. In spite of the last five games, let’s be honest, this team ain’t no good.
But, just for a minute, let’s dream a little. What can happen if everything goes perfect:
– Amare’s knees hold up and he continues to become what he once was. A scoring beast. He’s only 31, works as hard as anyone, has a new arsenal of Hakeem moves, and has embraced his new role, Batman’s Robin. New era philosophy dictates every championship team needs at least two elite players, so here’s our second.
– JR gets it. His physical talent was never a question. Mental growth is not a steady, gradual path for everyone. Sometimes, there’s an “aha” moment, and you can transform in an instant. If a caterpillar can turn into a butterfly, can’t JR turn into his best self? And if the last 60 minutes of basketball are all we are to go by, JR is already a beautiful monarch.
– Being a number one overall pick is something that will forever haunt Bargnani. But, If not asked to do too much, he can give more than enough. Yeah, he’s soft, and lackadaisical, but he has a great handle and touch for a seven footer, and has kept the knicks in at least a few games, and maybe even won a few for them, too. With a cast around him that’s playing great, he’ll only look better. Not bad for a fourth or fifth option or an off the bench scorer.
– Maybe all TC needs is little hope to be the defensive player he once was. As the knicks turn into winners, he turns into “the stopper”.
– Volumes can be written about Melo. Bottom line, if he continue to develop his mental game – playing smart, passing more, ball stopping less, rebounding, and committed defense – the Garden chants will be loud, M-V-P! M-V-P! M-V-P!

In this perfect world, the knicks win their division, and go into the playoffs with the best record after the all star break. That’s when the real fun begins.

I am fine with a return to the second round. That would sate me for this season. I’d like to see even more, but that seems unlikely, so I will gladly settle for a repeat of last season, although hopefully if they lose, for their second round opponent to be better than last year’s Pacers (like, say, this year’s Pacers).

That’s the dilemma every Knicks fan faces: what to do with a team that is not going anywhere in terms of competing for a ring?

To me, the fact our team is mostly comprised of basketball mercenaries, makes it hard to be sympathetic to the Knicks struggle. It was much easier to accept failure when we had a bunch of young players like Gallo, Mozgov, Chandler, etc. Yes, none of them had superstar potential, but they were developing and there was the feeling of a team growing from within. Couple that with a fast-paced tempo instilled by Dantoni and we had entertaining, if ultimately flawed, basketball.

Nowadays, in contrast, we have a bunch of mercenaries playing a dreadful brand of flawed basketball. We have a team imploding, not growing. A team looking at 2015 as the moment to start searching for a better future. It’s hard to root for JR Smith, Bargnani, Artest, Martin, Melo, Chandler, etc.

What’s a fan to do? As fans, are we supposed to feel good just making the playoffs as filler material, a kill-time act before the real act?

Are we supposed to root for players who probably don’t care themselves because they live in the same world we live, read the same stories we read and know fully well they will be sent packing at the first opportunity?

Should a fan embrace Mike Woodson, Carmelo “joe johnson on steroids” Anthony and the New York Hawks?

At what point should a fan abandon his own dreams of a ring in order to remain a fan?

That’s the trouble with being a Knicks fan – we are all slaves in James Dolan’s plantation of sadness…

Knickster — I’m not sure why you view this team as a bunch of mercenaries who are hard to root for. If the roster were made up of players who came to the team simply because the Knicks were the highest bidder, I could see why you would call them mercenaries, but that’s not why most of them joined the Knicks. Most of them are on the Knicks because they wanted to play for the Knicks. Melo wanted to be traded here, Chandler had other options that would have paid him the same or more than the Knicks paid him, Felton was upset to be traded away and really wanted to come back, MWP has spent his entire career wanting to play for them, Shumpert seemed really upset that he might be traded away, Udrih had Prigioni had other options and chose the Knicks. Even JR had other options when he came back from China and chose to sign with the Knicks for the vet minimum. Pretty much the only guy who signed with the Knicks because they offered him the most money is Amare, and he is probably the easiest guy on the team to root for. I, too, wish that the Knicks were competing for a ring this year. I also wish that I had a yacht. However, the fact that I don’t have a yacht doesn’t prevent me from really enjoying the couple of days a year when I get invited on someone else’s yacht. Similarly, the fact that the Knicks probably won’t win a championship this year won’t prevent me from enjoying the games that they do win.

Yes, I truly long for the days when I could watch Gallinari, Chandler, DLee and Toney Douglas develop from within into the perpetual 33 win team they would have inevitably become. I truly miss the halcyon days of 09-10 hoping for selfless stars like Nate Robinson and Eddy Curry to finally take that final step in their development and carry the Knicks to the promised land. Yes the team was so much more enjoyable to watch when they managed to play equally, if not much worse, defense and were at the mercy of true mercenary gunner, Al Harrington rather that Carmelo “JJ on steroids” Anthony.

It sucks that barring a miracle we aren’t going to win a championship this year, and I along with many people, were wrong in our predictions that this would be a very solid upper echelon team once again this year, but this is far from the low point in the Dolan era (Isiah Thomas, Scott Layden, Stephon Marbury, etc.).

Yes, I truly long for the days when I could watch Gallinari, Chandler, DLee and Toney Douglas develop from within into the perpetual 33 win team they would have inevitably become. I truly miss the halcyon days of 09-10 hoping for selfless stars like Nate Robinson and Eddy Curry to finally take that final step in their development and carry the Knicks to the promised land.

David Lee turned into a very good player – wouldn’t we be better off with him instead of Amare (cheaper and actually contributing)?
Gallinari is a very solid NBA player – better than anyone on the Knicks not named Carmelo Anthony. Wilson Chandler is a solid bench player. Toney Douglas didn’t turn into anything that I know of. Nate Robinson is a player I would root for 100 times more than JR Smith, to be honest.

That team (the one I mentioned, not the strawman you erected with Curry, Marbury, etc.) had far more potential than the current roster: we still had our picks and cap money. We owned our destiny. Today? Condemned to scavenge the NBA’s garbage bin to rescue the cadavers of formerly better players: Ron Artest, Kurt Thomas, Baron Davis, Rasheed Wallace, Marcus Camby, Kenyon Martin, etc. are leftovers from somebody else’s better era, but we as fans have become so accustomed to losing, the stink of their carcasses slowly moving up-court seems like breath of fresh air.

That’s a fair point and I don’t disagree staying the course with that team and stockpiling assets was probably a better long-term course of action. Then again who knows what would have happened. Lee was gone before Melo even got her and we still would have been saddled with STAT’s horrific contract only we’d still have a supporting cast of Gallo and Chandler and not sure of exactly who else at that point. I probably shouldn’t have been such a condescending prick about it, but I guess I can’t get bogged down in what could have been but will always look to see how we can improve in the future and hope to maximize whatever our current capabilities are while hoping for miracles and a possible championship however unlikely and improbable.

The Knicks are 9 games over 500% since Melo arrived. We were actually 2 games over 500% when we acquired him and worse after that season.

We could be paying Lee and Gallo less than Carmelo right now. Lee is probably the better player, he has been this season. Gallo by most advanced metrics was as good or better than Melo when we made the deal. Certainly, the Nuggets and Warriors haven’t looked back.

If we could have added Chandler to Gallo and Lee with tons of cap space and draft picks that would have been a lot better than our current train wreck.

I wish we could turn back the clock in a big way. But I believe there is legislation forbidding any re-litigation of the Carmelo trade which I am violating so I will cease and desist….

I probably shouldn’t have been such a condescending prick about it, but I guess I can’t get bogged down in what could have been but will always look to see how we can improve in the future and hope to maximize whatever our current capabilities are while hoping for miracles and a possible championship however unlikely and improbable.

Not a problem – honestly. In fact, that was (partially) my initial point: as fans we are forced to find a way, *some* way of dealing with the frustrations of a badly managed team. I struggle with my own overly negative outlook (even if it is fully justified), because I want the team to succeed, I want to believe in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

So, when somebody like me comes in the middle of a winning streak, very few fans want to hear that maybe it will amount to nothing, thus the negative reactions to my posts (regardless of how legitimate they may or may not be). I can understand that because I feel the same way sometimes. So, no ill feelings on my part – every day I remind myself that this is entertainment and nothing else.

— We could be paying Lee and Gallo less than Carmelo right now. Lee is probably the better player, he has been this season. Gallo by most advanced metrics was as good or better than Melo when we made the deal. Certainly, the Nuggets and Warriors haven’t looked back.

David Lee has nothing to do with Melo. That was done months before Melo was in play to get stat. I also wonder how his shitty d would have been treated on this site. The Nuggets havent looked back i guess but are basically in purgatory. They are better off tanking to get a lottery pick, the knicks will make the playoffs so that pick wont be in the lottery.

Also they got chandler with the money they got from billups. Also, He came to play with Melo and Stat.

The only reason the Nuggets are in purgatory is because Gallo got injured and Ujiri left. They were one of the best teams in the NBA before those things happened, though a little short of elite when that injury happened. Then they lost the best exec in the league and started doing bizarre things like signing JJ Hickson and Randy Foye.

Lee has gotten a bad rap for his defense because teams have tried to play him at center, which he is not capable of doing. Now that he has Bogut behind him the Warriors have the third best defense in the league. He’s no worse than Melo as a defender.

The Nuggets are a better team than the Knicks and have been by a HUGE margin since the trade happened. And that’s not how it was supposed to work out. If you think the Nuggets should tank than I would expect you think we should be unloading Melo at the deadline for whatever we can get, because our position is worse.

I think the Knicks’ position is better than the Nuggets, if only because the Knicks are in a much shittier conference. So I could see a Western team logically choosing to tank sooner than an Eastern team for that very reason.

Speaking of David Lee, is anyone else as surprised as I am at how devoted Mark Jackson has been to Lee? Lee and Jackson didn’t seem like a good fit to me at first but Jackson has turned out to be Lee’s, like, biggest fan. Weird.

—I think the Knicks’ position is better than the Nuggets, if only because the Knicks are in a much shittier conference. So I could see a Western team logically choosing to tank sooner than an Eastern team for that very reason.

Exactly.

–The Nuggets are a better team than the Knicks and have been by a HUGE margin since the trade happened.

The Knicks have also have been badly ravished by injuries since that trade. IE Stat.

There is a lot to like about Lee. Consummate team player, has done whatever the Warriors asked. Plays solid fundamental offensive basketball. Very versatile. Isn’t a primadonna. Great locker room guy. And the production has been outstanding this year, though they ( and me, let’s be honest) have had to wait a few years for it….

I will agree that Lee at center, where D’Antoni played him, and where he had to play for years in GS because of injuries, was worse than Melo at PF. But at PF it’s a wash. Melo is mediocre, so is Lee. Both look fine with All Star defensive centers behind them.

The Nuggets have been ravaged by injuries also. They lost Mcgee. They lost Gallo at his peak. Chandler has missed tons of games.

They have been a much better team than us since the trade and it isn’t close.

Isn’t it fascinating to witness the twisted logic applied to the Melo trade?
He wanted to play for the Knicks – he is a great guy. Money was not *the* factor.
Then, when you argue that the Knicks stupidly paid way too much for him, the same person turns around and claims: “If we had not done it, Melo would have signed somewhere else. He couldn’t afford the risk of a lesser contract with the impending CBA negotiations”.

So, which is the real Melo? The player who wanted to play for the Knicks or the mercenary willing to go with the highest bidder? Mercenary is my choice.

–So, which is the real Melo? The player who wanted to play for the Knicks or the mercenary willing to go with the highest bidder? Mercenary is my choice.

Isnt this what all players do? Dont give me Lebron either, the guy who had a 100 million dollar shoe contract before playing a game gave up a couple million a year. Big whoop.

–They have been a much better team than us since the trade and it isn’t close.
Nuggs Knicks
2011 18-7 13-14
2012 38-28 36-30
2013 57-25 54-28
2014 19-17 14-22

So lets see. In total the nuggets have gone 132-77 in total while the Knicks have gone 117-94 . So yes in theory they have 15 more wins. But if you look at the 2 complete seasons 0f 12′ and 13′ the Nuggets have 5 more wins. I see this as more of accurate number. in the trade year the Knicks were in turmoil, and this year is not over yet. I actually think the Knicks will have a better record this season than Den.

The Knicks also have more playoff wins

Regarding the injuries. The Nuggets injuries dont compare. They are a far deeper squad since the trade and have had similar players on the depth chart. Tyson chanldler Melo or Stat injury is far more debilitating than any Nugget Injury.

The Knicks have lost the majority of their close games, have been without one of their best players much of the year, and up until a week ago had been getting basement level performance from much of their roster.
Unfortunately for Owen, knickster and friends, there’s going to be more to the story of the 13-14 Knicks than has been written to this point.

Getting a top 4 seed is very much in the realm of possibility. Is it possible that the Knicks could be playing their best ball heading into the playoffs AND healthy?

IF so, say they win that first round series with HCA. I sort of like how they match up with both Miami and Indiana, and they would face both/either of those teams without ANY pressure to win.

Everyone knows (and most dismiss) that the Knicks have won 4 of their last 5 against Miami, but have the Pacers really gotten better from last season?

Is it conceivable that the Knicks would have at the very least extended Indiana to 7 games had Chandler and Melo been healthy?

Is it possible that one of those teams goes into the postseason with injuries?

The Nuggets win percentage didn’t change much the two years after the trade to the 2 1/2 years prior.

The Nuggets actually made the WCF two years previous. The post Melo/Billups Karl teams lost back-to-back 1st round series to teams that were inferior by SRS.

It was pretty obvious that the Nuggets were going to be a regular season juggernaut under Karl after the trade. I said they’d break the franchise record for regular season wins the year they did, and all three seasons I said they’d get bounced in the playoffs in the first round to better half-court teams. The new personnel fit what Karl wanted to do better. And much of that had to do with handing the point guard duties to Lawson full-time.

Let’s see what the Knicks record is at the end of the season. Gallo does make a difference for Nuggets, he’s a solid player. But if you really wanted to factor in injuries, it makes what the Knicks have done look better.

The Knicks are 27 games over .500 with Melo and 3 games under .500 without him since he arrived.

I think the best argument for Denver is that they certainly didn’t get worse after trading away their superstar, and still have a first-round pick in 2014 pending from that (and a swap possibility in 2016). In a league where Cleveland absolutely imploded after Lebron left, where New Orleans ended up with the #1 pick the year after CP3 left, and where Orlando hasn’t even been trying to win since Dwight left, that’s a pretty major victory.

I don’t think there’s any question the Nuggets got the better end of the deal, simply because they were in a position of almost zero leverage with their best player. Yet somehow they managed at the very least to break even, and still have 2 draft pick considerations pending. Really impressive work by Ujiri.

Frank, your points make a ton of sense. Thats really what they did was at least break even, and thats the requirement of making trade. Now the 2 picks could put them over the top. But lets not act like they are some sort of Juggernaut

Apropos to nothing, I feel like the most underdiscussed topic of the year is the fact that, in hindsight, not offering Chris Copeland the full mini-MLE was probably the worst decision we made.

For one thing, there needed to be communication between the idiot – er, coach – and GM. Because the whole point of choosing Pablo over Copeland was the fact that we thought the two-PG lineups were indispensable. Those lasted half of the home opener vs Milwaukee and haven’t been resurrected again, so that was a bit of a waste. Clearly the coach and GM were not on the same page, and that could have easily been fixed.

Furthermore, if we kept Copeland, there would have been no need for AB. Which means could have used that package to acquire Lowry.

This, of course, overlooks the whole CAA connection and the the Coach’s infatuation with height. But if we were competently managed this summer, we would have ended up with Lowry & Copeland instead of Prigioni & Bargnani. What a difference that would have made.

As an aside, it pains me to see Copeland languishing in no man’s land on a team that doesn’t need him. He was one of my favorite players last year.

And yes, I introduced that topic out of nowhere in a desperate attempt to divert this conversation away from rehashing the Melo trade for the bazillionth time. Please, someone – anyone! – join me over here on this path.

Unfortunately for Owen, knickster and friends, there’s going to be more to the story of the 13-14 Knicks than has been written to this point.

Yep. There will be a LOT more to the story, but not in terms of achievement, but in terms of excuses. The Knicks have absolutely no chance of beating Miami or Indiana in a playoff series. We will make the playoffs only because more than HALF of the NBA teams make the playoffs. We are in contention for the Atlantis division because all other teams in it as are bad as the Knicks. Edging out Toronto, Brooklyn, Boston & Philadelphia for a meaningless playoff spot is something only you would try to pass off as an achievement.

Everyone knows (and most dismiss) that the Knicks have won 4 of their last 5 against Miami, but have the Pacers really gotten better from last season?

What type of question is that? The Pacers are better and we are much worse…but I know that you will produce some obscure, meaningless stat to deny the sun’s existence. Camby had the best per-minute rebound rate in the NBA when he came here, remember?

Getting a top 4 seed is very much in the realm of possibility. Is it possible that the Knicks could be playing their best ball heading into the playoffs AND healthy?
IF so, say they win that first round series with HCA. I sort of like how they match up with both Miami and Indiana, and they would face both/either of those teams without ANY pressure to win.

Happy accounting. Everything will go perfect for the Knicks and everything will go bad for every other team. And when reality is not a match for the irrational predictions, it’s time to blame injuries, bad luck, the “media”, Charles Barkley, the refs, Stern or the Devil himself.

Is it conceivable that the Knicks would have at the very least extended Indiana to 7 games had Chandler and Melo been healthy?

More irrational, happy accounting. Melo was banged up as the result of Woody going all out in order to obtain the shiny 54 wins record. If the Knicks had paced Melo and Chandler, they would have been in better physical shape, but the record would have been a far more pedestrian and realistic 47 wins.

Everyone knows (and most dismiss) that the Knicks have won 4 of their last 5 against Miami, but have the Pacers really gotten better from last season?

Meaningless stat.
What’s our record against Chicago for the same period? What does that mean, anyway? (remember to apply the same rules you apply when judging the Knicks against Miami, irrational as that is)

Is it possible that one of those teams goes into the postseason with injuries?

Isn’t it sad our only hope is for LeBron and Bosh to have their legs amputated?

“Happy accounting. Everything will go perfect for the Knicks and everything will go bad for every other team. And when reality is not a match for the irrational predictions, it’s time to blame injuries, bad luck, the “media”, Charles Barkley, the refs, Stern or the Devil himself.”

Wait, so by this logic, everything went perfect for the Pacers last year and everything went bad for the Knicks, are are you denying that Chandler and Melo were hurt?

Since you’ve made this about me, I’m going to post all the predictions I’ve made on this board.

@knickster – one could reasonably make the argument that the Pacers have not really gotten that much better since last year. They have a better winning percentage and point margin, but they also have had one of the easier schedules in the league — playing 25 out of their 36 games against teams with records <.500. In games against .500+ opponents they are 6-5, not exactly setting the world on fire.

And as you know, when it comes playoff time, it's not what you did in Nov/Dec that counts but what you do in April/May/June. They and Miami have been extraordinarily lucky with injuries (Granger's injury is a wash IMHO since without that injury last year into this year, Paul George probably doesn't break out), and they may not be so lucky as the year goes on. If either George or Hibbert have an untimely injury, they'll be done, just like that. Of course one can say that about any team and their best players, but my point is that there is a fair amount of luck involved in having a successful season.
The other thing about staying healthy is that your players get a ton of reps playing and practicing together in stable lineups, as opposed to the total chaos that has been our team since the year started.

In terms of the Knicks, our record obviously sucks balls but there is no doubt this team is playing better than it was earlier in the year. If you take out the games that Melo missed at the end of december, this team is actually 11-7 since the beginning of December after going 3-12 in Oct/Nov. I think it's probably not likely that we win the Atlantic since I think Toronto is probably for real, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a 5 or 6 seed.

Now I still think Woodson is a liability and ultimately will need to go if we're going to make a deep push, but I think the overall arrow on this particular team is up.

Matchups don’t tell the whole story, as demonstrated by the fact that Chicago swept the Knicks last year. The entire season play is a much better indicator. That’s why in spite of the particular results, Miami would have been a prohibitive favorite against the Knicks last year or this year.

So, the team with the best record always advances, right? How does that explain your Nuggets?

Straw man argument. They are not “my nuggets” and they faced a different first-round opponent in a different, stronger conference. If YOUR Nuggets (remember?) had been in the Atlantis division, they would have been the ones facing (and losing to) Indiana.

The Knicks matched-up quite poorly with Chicago for a variety of reasons. They match-up better with Deng gone and Rose injured.

ROTFLMAO…of course, they match better against Chicago without Rose or Deng. Even better if Noah, Butler and Thibodeau would just die, right?

Of course one can say that about any team and their best players, but my point is that there is a fair amount of luck involved in having a successful season.
The other thing about staying healthy is that your players get a ton of reps playing and practicing together in stable lineups, as opposed to the total chaos that has been our team since the year started.

But you can’t rationally separate injuries from a team when evaluating that team. For example: if you think Tyson Chandler is a great center because of this and that and that and rate him a 92 on a scale of 1-100, you have made a mistake if you did not deduct a few points for his propensity to injuries and little ailments, a constant in his career. Same thing with Kenyon Martin: injuries and old age should result in a few points deducted, too. Pablo is 37, more deductions. The list goes on and on…The point is that the Knicks were not the victims of bad luck. All teams suffer injuries (look at Westbrook, Rose, etc.), but some teams are more injury-prone than others. That should be an important factor when evaluating them. Our Knicks, because they have a roster full of key pieces at/near the end of their journey, has had a lot of injuries – don’t treat them as “bad luck”.

Frank I completely agree that this Knicks team is on the upswing which doesn’t really make them a contender but a potentially difficult out for Indiana and Miami. I agree the raptors would probably win the division if they kept their team together but I think ujiri is keeping his poker face on with threatening to keep Lowry and go for the Atlantic. Ultimately a team that is up against the cap with an onerous derozan contract and lowrys impending free agency is probably not built to improve drastically in the coming years outside of valanciunas.

I think it’s likely they’ll sell high on derozan if there are takers and move Lowry as well if possible. The Knicks and a nets team with deron healthy are the two teams nobody would want to face in the first round in the east.

Also knickster while head to head record is overrated to an extent it can tell you some things. The Knicks haven’t just beat Miami but been able to dictate the style of play and eliminate miamis bread and butter fast break offense by simply not turning the ball over. Even the game the Knicks lost to Miami last season was due to some unbelievably bad three point shooting on wide open looks. The over switching also doesn’t hurt the Knicks nearly as much against Miami as it would against other teams either.

Wait, so by this logic, everything went perfect for the Pacers last year and everything went bad for the Knicks, are are you denying that Chandler and Melo were hurt?

Chandler and Melo were hurt because Woody overplayed them in order to obtain the 54-win record that you and others often use in your arguments to pretend we had an elite team last year. The record was misleading for that reason, as demonstrated when we faced a solid, good team like Indiana.

And no, not everything went “perfect” for Indiana. Granger was out and Hill suffered a toe injury at a critical time in the playoffs. They achieved what they ultimately deserved: a very good conference finals appearance against the eventual champs. It was an excellent series, with great play by both teams. No excuses needed – nobody was ever heard saying Granger would have pushed Indiana past Miami. In New York people were even blaming the loss on Copeland (of all people!) not getting more playing time. Hell, even Novak would have made a difference before he was totally vilified in order to justify Barngani’s acquisition.

Have you noticed how no team is just better than the Knicks? There is always some injury, some injustice, some factor that prevents us from achieving the ultimate goal.

Since you’ve made this about me, I’m going to post all the predictions I’ve made on this board.

I’m not making this about you. I’m just clearly refuting all your childish arguments. In fact, you were the one that made it about “someone” by writing:

Unfortunately for Owen, knickster and friends, there’s going to be more to the story of the 13-14 Knicks than has been written to this point.

“The point is that the Knicks were not the victims of bad luck. All teams suffer injuries (look at Westbrook, Rose, etc.), but some teams are more injury-prone than others. That should be an important factor when evaluating them. Our Knicks, because they have a roster full of key pieces at/near the end of their journey, has had a lot of injuries – don’t treat them as “bad luck”.”

Good luck quantifying that buddy.

Just to be clear, the Thunder and Bulls were unlucky? Throw out Westbrook’s playing style because he hadn’t been injured before, right?

And Rose, he was young and athletic. Old slow guys are the ones who get hurt.

You are completely misrepresenting others arguments in order to make relevant points. Frank simply said there is some level of luck with any team that advances in the playoffs. That’s a completely indisputable point.

Yes, it’s true that the Knicks have more injury prone players than other teams, but you were responding to the argument that the Knicks could get lucky with injuries heading into the playoffs.

You are trolling us. You’re a less intelligent Jowles, and that’s not saying much.

Also knickster while head to head record is overrated to an extent it can tell you some things. The Knicks haven’t just beat Miami but been able to dictate the style of play and eliminate miamis bread and butter fast break offense by simply not turning the ball over. Even the game the Knicks lost to Miami last season was due to some unbelievably bad three point shooting on wide open looks. The over switching also doesn’t hurt the Knicks nearly as much against Miami as it would against other teams either.

Lavor, you make a good point, but that’s INCOMPLETE information. That’s why I reminded Ruruland of the fact Chicago SWEPT us last year. What does that mean?

It’s very clear that Miami and the Knicks are NOT on the same plane, no matter what the head-to-head record is. As simple as that.

The Nets just won 5 in a row and beat Miami in double overtime, Got LeBron to foul out. What does that mean? Incomplete information. See?

“Chandler and Melo were hurt because Woody overplayed them in order to obtain the 54-win record that you and others often use in your arguments to pretend we had an elite team last year. ”

You have some proof of this?

Nope.
And I don’t have proof Melo was hurt, either. He ALONE claimed to have recovered from an injury that normally requires surgery, but do you have any proof of it?

Melo has traditionally sucked during the playoffs, so, maybe he just came up with the excuse in order to take attention away from the fact that he was just posting his usual playoff subpar performance (41% from the field, 32% on 3-points career, much worse during his Knicks tenure – 40.4%, 29.7%).

I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make, Knickster. Yes, Chicago swept us even though the Knicks had a better record last year. They were a tough matchup for us. Yes, Miami was a better overall team than we were last year, but I would’ve taken my chances against them in a 7 game series because the Knicks do/did specific things that Miami had and still has trouble with. Remember, it’s not 4-1 in the last 5 games against Miami because of a lucky shot here or there. It’s 4-1 with a +11.2 average point margin. These games were blowouts, or at least not close games. It IS a small sample so I get your INCOMPLETE INFORMATION point (hard to miss in caps). But when you outscore another team by 56 points over 20 quarters, it starts to feel like maybe you can believe some of that INCOMPLETE INFORMATION.

Re: the Nets, I’m also not totally clear on what point you’re trying to make. The Nets were expected to be good, got off to a horrible start, and recently have been playing better. So they’ve won a bunch of games and beat Miami. What’s your point?

Would I put my money on the Knicks beating Miami and Indiana? No. Do I think the Knicks pose a bigger threat to both teams than their record indicates, absolutely yes, for reasons mentioned above.

I can agree with that, at least partially. But I would modify the statement for greater accuracy:
“The Knicks can and should do better than their current record indicates, but they pose no serious threat to those two teams”.

You aren’t actually responding to the arguments we’re making. You aren’t posting in good faith. It’s Jowles sophistry 101.

I’m trying my best, but as you admit, I’m up against a bunch, a “we”. My arguments make sense, but they don’t conform to your views, thus the false accusations on your part. Can’t do much about that.

Maybe we have different perspectives because – when everything is said and done – I’m a Knicks fan and you are a Carmelo fan. Denver was your team until Melo left. Now you post here. Maybe you too will opt out after the season. Who knows…

So, you may not necessarily look at the long-term Knicks picture the way I – and other fans – do.

And I don’t have proof Melo was hurt, either. He ALONE claimed to have recovered from an injury that normally requires surgery, but do you have any proof of it?

lol, now you’re just being ridiculous.

Look, no one is saying the Knicks are the best team in the world. We still have a crappy record and even a 6 game streak of very good play could just be ebbs and flows. Sure fine. Like I wrote above, I still think this team needs a new coach to get past the 2nd round of the playoffs, but I’m still happy they’re playing better and that we can reasonably even think about the 2nd round of the playoffs now.

In terms of Miami and Indiana, these are two teams that over the last 2 years we have played extremely well against. Yes, we lost a tough 6 games series to Indiana, but each team actually scored 537 points in that series — not exactly a blowout by any means. And I would argue that the NBA basically completely redefined “verticality” in that series — which completely changed the outcome of the series, and nearly got the Heat as well.

Anyway, this is a pointless conversation. We obviously aren’t going to make any big moves in terms of personnel, so let’s just see how this all plays out – that’s the fun of it anyway!

Saying the Nuggets were one of the best teams in basketball after the Melo trade is a joke for two reasons:

1) They never left the first round.
2) They were good because of Faried, Lawson, Andre Iguodala, McGee, and Koufos mainly. None of those players were traded to them from New York.

A little short of elite? That’s a joke. They won 57 games last year, and that’s an accomplishment. They were a great team. But then they ran into a team with a real superstar in Stephen Curry and got embarrassed. So they were “a little short of elite” for half a season for reasons that have little to do with the Melo trade, and now they’re mediocre and will have a worse season than the Knicks.

Re: the Nets, I’m also not totally clear on what point you’re trying to make. The Nets were expected to be good, got off to a horrible start, and recently have been playing better. So they’ve won a bunch of games and beat Miami. What’s your point?

My point is that you can’t draw any meaningful conclusions from a very small, hand-picked sample. The fact that you don’t see a point in my citing the Net’s recent feats and the Chicago record against the Knicks (more lopsided that the Knicks against Miami last season) only confirms what I’m saying: there is not much to gain from examining that data in a vacuum.

I am fine with a return to the second round. That would sate me for this season.

But where does that leave the Knicks next season? Without a blow-up, this same roster is coming back next season. With only Hardaway and possibly Shumpert likely to take a step up. Everybody else will be another year older, a little more banged up, a little more susceptible to airborn illness, a little more crazy (and the IQ ain’t getting higher).

Returning to the second round may sate you now, but it will make for a long cold winter next season.

My point is that you can’t draw any meaningful conclusions from a very small, hand-picked sample. The fact that you don’t see a point in my citing the Net’s recent feats and the Chicago record against the Knicks (more lopsided that the Knicks against Miami last season) only confirms what I’m saying: there is not much to gain from examining that data in a vacuum.

I sort of understand what you’re saying – but in the playoffs, you’re only playing against 1 team. You’re not playing against that team’s record from the regular season. The overall quality of the team is well represented by their regular season record, but the specific matchup still is an important determinant of the outcome. You said it yourself – even though we had a better record for the whole season than Chicago, they absolutely dominated us during the regular season match ups. Chicago wasn’t necessarily “better” than us – they just played a style and have personnel that we had a difficult time dealing with.

So while I have zero problem saying/agreeing with you that Indiana and Miami are better teams than the Knicks in general, I do have a problem with “but [the Knicks] pose no serious threat to those two teams” in a 7 game series. I’m pretty sure Indiana and Miami would MUCH rather see Washington or Atlanta or Toronto or a neutered Chicago (all way ahead of us in the standings) than us in the 2nd round.

You are trolling us. You’re a less intelligent Jowles, and that’s not saying much.

Not much in the way of credible arguments? Your frustration stems from the fact you can’t fool me with meaningless little obscure, hand-picked (and probably made-up) stats analyzed in a vacuum.

I’m pretty sure Melo is much better than LeBron in situations where the opposing center is 19.2 centimeters away from our point guard and Melo has the ball, the Knicks up by 3 and Marv Albert is calling the game pantyless. To the rest of the world, the un-infatuated masses, those two guys don’t belong in the same sentence.

I have to go now (will be back late tonight or tomorrow), but you have the last word. Good luck!

I’m pretty sure Indiana and Miami would MUCH rather see Washington or Atlanta or Toronto or a neutered Chicago (all way ahead of us in the standings) than us in the 2nd round.”.

Quick reply (must go) Oh, absolutely. I agree with that. I would also point out that they would rather see us than each other. We are not last in the pecking order, of course. We are just one of the ‘also-rans’.

Knickster, overall I agree with you that Melo plays too many minutes — especially this year — but that’s in the context that I believe that all these players probably play too much and that Pop probably has the right idea playing his best guys no more than 28-32 minutes/game or so.

That said — that B/R article you referenced was written in February 2012. In March Melo played only 33.3 minutes/game. In April (8 games) he played 36 minutes per game, less than his season’s average, and a pretty normal minutes load for an NBA starter. in total for the 2012-13 season, he averaged 37 minutes per game, fully 36 seconds per game more than his career average. I’m pretty sure those 36 seconds per game were not the difference between good Melo and bad Melo. And in fact, April was the month that he went completely supernova averaging 37/10/2 on a TS of 62.4. Hard to imagine that being worn down at the end of a long season would have resulted in that.

He didn’t play as well in the playoffs because he was playing 2 of the best defenses in the league. His numbers in the playoffs are not as good as his regular season numbers because he plays better teams in the playoffs, and those teams have their undivided attention on him in terms of scouting and game planning. Maybe the shoulder hurt him, maybe it didn’t. I don’t know that we need to look any more into it.

And Melo’s injury in the playoffs was not a freak accident. Kevin Garnett yanked his arm and tore his labrum.

That was actually when he aggravated it. The first time it was injured was when David West spent a whole regular season game targeting him.

We went into that game looking for home court advantage. They went into that game looking to hurt Melo.

So you got two thugs intentionally seeking to injure a superstar (and succeeding) and no one even talked about it. But Patrick Beverley actually trying to make a basketball play accidentally injures Russell Westbrook and he’s public enemy #1.

That was some bullshit. As is this Knickster crap. You’re destined to be lying in the graveyard next to Vinny and Dogrufus.

The Knicks will never get the benefit of the doubt from the local or national media Hubert. David west is lauded as some kind of pillar around which the Indiana pacers were able to forge an identity and preserve the sanctity of basketball and James Naismith. Garnett is a gritty veteran who will do whatever it takes to win and will be eulogized when he retires for his intensity on the floor and no holds barred mentality.

Westbrook suffered an injury because Patrick Beverley had the audacity to attempt to steal the ball while a play was still occurring. Melo basically was a punching bag for the first two rounds of the playoffs and was subject to the most physical over the top defending since the 90s Knicks targeted Jordan while Roy hibbert was given carte Blanche to protect the paint as long as he jumped up straight regardless of what he did with his arms.

At the end of the day as a Knicks fan I have resigned myself to the fact that melo will get the worst whistle of any superstar in the league and that this Knicks team will be excoriated by the media any result short of a championship. Ultimately no excuses really lost us this series more than our own coaches inability to play proper rotations and his bizarre motivation in attempting to match Indianas strengths rather than playing to those of his roster.

Shaq was actually subject to more physical punishment than melo last year but he also got a pretty nice whistle and doled out his fair share of pain. I can see an argument for iverson but melo absolutely took real punishment last year and whatever his flaws may be his toughness for me is not in question after witnessing the end of last year into the playoffs.

Once again, examining data out of context. Paul George was playing small forward, surrounded by Hibbert at center and Paul West as a power forward. His game is kind of effortless: he passes when he needs to pass, shoots when he needs to shoot, trusts and gets help on offense and defense from his team mates and lets the game come to him. He is a “suave”, finesse player. A great, efficient player.

Melo, on the other hand played 37 HARD AS HELL minutes, in great part because of his style of play. 1. Melo played as an *undersized* power forward, not his natural small forward position, so he got banged by bigger guys like David West. That takes a toll.
2. Melo is routinely double and triple-teamed by rough, big guys. And he does NOT avoid contact. He will often just lower his shoulder and barrel into several defenders. It takes a toll.

That partially explains why he routinely disappears in fourth quarters. But most importantly: Melo is a bulldozer, often fighting a bunch of guys under the basket. Paul George seldom does that. Even LeBron’s straight-ahead game has less pounding that Melo’s game.

So, Melo’s minutes MAY appear similar to Paul George’s. But on closer examination, it’s not the same at all. That’s the proper context.

That was some bullshit. As is this Knickster crap. You’re destined to be lying in the graveyard next to Vinny and Dogrufus.

Why the nastiness? Lack of coherent arguments? Maybe a little bullying will make me more sympathetic toward your silly, easily-refuted arguments? Man, grow up! This is supposed to be a higher-level blog, but you’re acting like a mad 12-year old. It’s just about entertainment, basketball, fun. Don’t lose track of the ball…

Also ill be at the game tonight and haven’t been since the renovation. Anything I should check out? Is anybody else going to be there? If so I’d love to meet up at halftime or at blarney rock pub now until I head to the game.

@68 — Melo doesn’t “routinely disappear in 4th quarters.” I don’t have the stats in front of me but I think that they show that, over the last 5 years or so, Melo has always been among the league leaders in 4th quarter scoring. I do agree with you that Melo is double and triple teamed a whole lot more than George and that he gets hit a lot more than George does. Despite that, he is more “efficient” than George is. Look at their PER — Melo consistently ranks higher than George does, including this year.

Melo doesn’t “routinely disappear in 4th quarters.” I don’t have the stats in front of me but I think that they show that, over the last 5 years or so, Melo has always been among the league leaders in 4th quarter scoring.

I don’t have the stats in front of me, but he’s been horrible this year. 4th quarters have been painful to watch, mostly because Anthony either isos and throws up a horrible shot, or doesn’t call time out when anybody with any game-time experience should, or both.

There was a time, before he arrived in NY, that he did something like lead the league in game winning shot%. But now he’s like 1 for his last 17, and the record reflects that.

Cgreene – ill be in section 208 but can’t make it to mustang Harry’s. lemme know if you can meet up at some point during the game. Would be great to see somebody from kb. Im in a melo shirt jersey. Short brown with a pretty distinctive mark on my nose.