Interview with Gustav Pantzer, part 1

University of Texas at San Antonio Archives and Special Collections
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Gustav Pantzer, Interview I, December 26, 2006
This first interview with Mr. Gustav Pantzer took place on December 26, 2006 in Mr. Pantzer’s home in San Antonio, Texas. Also present were Mr. Pantzer’s niece, Pam James, and her son, Brett James.
BEGIN SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE
Tellez: Okay. Today’s date is December 26, 2006. And, Mr. Pantzer, if you could, please state your full name.
Pantzer: Gustav Pantzer— G_U_S_T_A_V—
Tellez: Okay, thank you. And, Mr. Pantzer, do I have your permission to record this interview?
Pantzer: You sure have my permission.
Tellez: Thank you very much. Okay, well, we’ll start now. First of all, I’d like to ask you when you were born.
Pantzer: July 16, 1911
Tellez: And where were you born, Mr. Pantzer?
Pantzer: Berlin Germany
Tellez: How long did you live there?
Pantzer: until 1929
Tellez: Who were your parents, Mr. Pantzer?
Pantzer: My parents?
Tellez: yes, sir
Pantzer: At the time?
[laughter]
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Tellez: yes, sir
Pantzer: The first name?
Tellez: yeah, both of your parents’ names
Pantzer: Well, my mother’s name was Hedwig; my father’s name was Max.
Tellez: Okay. Did your parents ever tell you how they met?
Pantzer: They met in New York some place. I don’t know how. They were married in New York City.1
Tellez: Okay— And, Mr. Pantzer, what did your father do?
Pantzer: He was a merchant.
Tellez: And how about your mother? What did your mother do?
Pantzer: She was a housewife and mother of five children.
Tellez: A noble profession— Your father was a merchant. What did your father sell? Was there any type of goods—
Pantzer: No, he was engaged in some firm. I don’t know the name of the firm.
Tellez: Oh, I see. Okay. Now could you tell me a little bit about what your father was like?
Pantzer: What he looked like?
Tellez: Well, [tell me] what kind of person he was.
Pantzer: Well, for a while he was in the military, and that didn’t help make a good man out of him. It changed his personality. And due to the fact that he came from very, very
1 Max and Hedwig Pantzer both lived in Germany before traveling to New York City where they met. After having four children, including three boys and one girl, the Pantzers moved back to Germany, settling in Berlin. A short time later, Hedwig Pantzer gave birth to Gustav Pantzer in Berlin. The family originally planned to return to the United States; however, due to transportation and economic problems caused by World War I, the family was unable to leave. Descendents of Max Pantzer claim that Max lost his German citizenship prior to his return to Germany, but the reason remains a mystery. There seems to be a discrepancy here, since Max Pantzer served as an officer for Keiser Wilhelm, II during World War I. This seems an unlikely event for a non-citizen, and no known explanation for Max’s loss of citizenship exists. Consequently, Gustav Pantzer never gained German citizenship. Hedwig Pantzer later moved back New York to join all but one of her children subsequent to their own immigration to the United States. Max Pantzer apparently left the family prior to their departure. Interestingly, Hedwig Pantzer’s immigration card reads, “nationality uncertain.” (see photo number one) MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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rich people, I understand he was not the most ambitious man. He depended a lot on his father’s money. That’s what I understand. So the relationship between my father and myself was rather nil.
Tellez: Oh, okay. So y’all didn’t really have much of a relationship.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: And how did you feel about that?
Pantzer: How did I feel about it?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Uh, I felt about it no feeling.
Tellez: You never wished that you could have had a closer relationship with him?
Pantzer: no relationship whatsoever—
Tellez: I see. And when you say that the military changed him, it changed his personality. I think that’s what you mean, right?
Pantzer: Well, I think that didn’t help—with other things—with other unpleasant details. Yeah, too much money—in his pocket, not in my pocket—
Tellez: Oh, I see. So then, I guess you— Did you consider your father a good provider then, or not?
Pantzer: The grandfather was the provider.
Tellez: So I take it then your grandfather helped take care of you, your siblings and your mother.
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: And this was your paternal grandfather, or your maternal grandfather? Your father’s father—
Pantzer: It was my father’s father.
Tellez: I see. Can you tell me a little bit about your grandfather?
Pantzer: About what?
Tellez: Your grandfather. The one who helped you. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: Oh, well, he was a gentleman! And he was the owner of a very large lumberyard. At the time, I remember, he was retired then. And he lived in a very luxurious home. He was what you call a “multimillionaire.” But [he] did a lot for the family. That’s all I remember about him.
Tellez: Do you remember anything about his personality?
Pantzer: A very fine gentleman—
Tellez: And I take it he spent quite a bit of time with you and your siblings.
Pantzer: Well, whenever the opportunity arose we spent time together, yes.
Tellez: Now, how about your mother—can you tell me a little bit about your mother?
Pantzer: She was a good housewife and a good mother. That’s all I could tell you about her.
Tellez: Were you and your mother close?
Pantzer: Oh, yes!
Tellez: As far as your immediate family—your siblings and your parents—would you have considered your family lower, middle, or upper income?
Pantzer: My own family?
Tellez: Yes, sir. Your parents, your brothers and sisters, and you.
Pantzer: Well, repeat that. The income of what—my family, my own family, or my father’s family?
Tellez: Your father’s family. Your brothers and sisters, and you and your mother and father.
Pantzer: What about it?
Tellez: What income [bracket] would you say you were in? Would you say it was lower income—
Pantzer: Oh, I don’t know what—they were not working.2
2 This seems to conflict with Pantzer’s earlier assertion that his father worked as a merchant for a German firm. However, according to subsequent, unrecorded statements by Gustav Pantzer and Pam James, Max Pantzer spent most of his time out of work, and kept what money he did earn to himself. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Tellez: Oh, so you were poor?
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay.
Pantzer: Now—did you say—what?
Tellez: I asked if your family was poor.
Pantzer: No, no. They had maids and what have you. Oh, yes—they were very well-to-do.
Tellez: Your parents’ family?
Pantzer: Well, yes. As I said, my grandfather saw to it that we lived a very fine life. I wouldn’t say luxurious, but my mother always had a maid, and beautiful homes, and whatever times permitted, you see. We lived what they call—for awhile—“in luxury.”
Tellez: Oh, okay. So, your grandfather really was nice.
Pantzer: Oh! He left me a lot of money in his last will, but all the inflation ate it all up.3
Tellez: Yeah, that’s too bad. Okay, you say there were five of you. Did that include you with your brothers and sisters, or with you it was six? How many brothers and sisters did you have?
Pantzer: I had three brothers and one sister. And I was the youngest.
Tellez: What kind of relationship did you have with your brothers and sisters?
Pantzer: A wonderful relationship—
Tellez: Oh, good. And wonderful in what way?
Pantzer: Well, as brothers and sisters should have.
Tellez: So you were close and—
Pantzer: Well, yes. We were brothers and sisters.
Tellez: And when you say “a relationship that brothers and sisters should have”—you know some people may think that means one thing, and other people may think it means
3 Here Mr. Pantzer refers to the inflation crises that occurred after World War I when the German economy suffered due to the cost of war and Germany struggled to pay war reparations imposed by the 1919 Treaty of Versailles. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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another. In your opinion, Mr. Pantzer, what kind of relationship do you think that brothers and sisters should have?
Pantzer: Well, one will help the other.
Tellez: Okay. That makes good sense to me. Okay, this is going to be a strange question, but you can think about it for a few moments if you like. What is your earliest memory of your childhood?
Pantzer: The earliest memory?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: The first prayer that my mother taught me—
Tellez: Do you remember that prayer?
Pantzer: Yes I do.
Tellez: Could you recite it?
Pantzer: Well, it’s in German, but I can translate it.
Tellez: Okay.
Pantzer: God make me pious that I might get into heaven. That’s the translation.
Tellez: That’s beautiful. So I take it that was a—
Pantzer: That was in 1914.
Pam James: In German?
Tellez: Yes, say it in German.
[Mr. Pantzer recites the prayer in German—need spelling]
Pantzer: Did you get that?
[laughter]
Tellez: No, but it’s on the tape, Mr. Pantzer, and I’m going to have a heck of a time trying to type that!
[laughter]
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Pantzer: Well, Brett got it.
Tellez: Would you say that those were the type of morals your mother lived by?
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes. An example of a mother! Okay?
Tellez: Could you elaborate on that a little bit?
Pantzer: Would else could I elaborate? She’s an example of a mother. What do mothers do? They take care of their children, and she did.
Tellez: What would you consider a typical day for your family? What did y’all do on a typical day when you were a child?
Pantzer: We had a normal school life and a normal social life, and a normal religious life.
Pam James: Would the maid serve you breakfast in the morning? Would you sit down for breakfast with your family?
Pantzer: Oh, yes, sure—a regular family life—
Tellez: So you would have breakfast together, and then go to school—
Pantzer: What we did, we did together.
Tellez: That’s beautiful. Okay, and when you came home from school, what would y’all do after school?
Pantzer: The first thing, I changed my clothes, and then we had a bite to eat, if possible. And then we did our homework, and then we went outside to take part in sports, or whatever, for play. Then we came back before it was dark, and we ate, and we prayed, and then we go to bed.
Tellez: Okay. You mentioned school— What was your school like?
Pantzer: Oh, it was a very hard school, but very pleasant. And one of the finer schools of Berlin. Which gave me, I’d say, a fairly good education. That’s why I stayed until 1929.
Tellez: So your school was one of the better schools in Berlin, and—
Pantzer: Well, the curriculum was Latin, English and French, and everything else. So it wasn’t easy, but it was well accepted in business. When you graduated from that school you had one plus.
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Tellez: So it was considered prestigious.
Pantzer: Yes, yes. You had to pay for that.
Tellez: And I take it your grandfather then made sure that y’all went to—
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes— [My grandfather paid] thirty bucks every month.
Tellez: Thank you for telling me that. See, that type of information—when you tell me how much the school cost, and things like that—those are important when you’re talking about your history because it tells us something about what life was like for you at that time, and for other people. Okay, now, when you would sit down to dinner with your family, what kinds of things did your family talk about? Do you remember?
Pantzer: What kind of what?
Tellez: What kind of subjects did your family talk about at dinner? If you can remember—
Pantzer: I don’t remember.
Tellez: Okay, that’s fine.
Pantzer: It was customary, when you had a dinner guest, that someone would give a table talk.4
Tellez: What was a table talk? Tell me about that.
Pantzer: Well, say we have a party here of eight or so, somebody would have to get up and give a table talk on current events or whatever. But that was customary—besides the invocation.
Tellez: Okay, and who decided who would give the table talk?
Pantzer: I wouldn’t. I was a boy. I did my listening, and probably didn’t understand what they were talking about.
Tellez: Did they discuss politics?
4 A table talk is an informal speech-like conversation at a dining table—usually delivered by an honored and important guest. The practice of recording table talks of famous individuals became common in the 17th century, but collections of table talks by famous or otherwise important people go back to the 3rd century AD. The term became part of the English language around the 16th century. [citation needed here?] MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: Probably. As I said, I probably didn’t even know what they were talking about. All I [knew was] that they were standing up and bop, bop, bop. [Mr. Pantzer makes a chopping motion with the side of his hand]
[laughter]
Pantzer: I just kept on eating.
Tellez: When you ate dinner, what kind of foods did you like to eat?
Pantzer: What kind of food?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Whatever was available at the time. Remember, those were hard times. Those were war times, and inflation times, so food was pretty scarce at the time.5 So, we were happy with what we got.
Pam James: Did you ever have potato pancakes?
Pantzer: Oh, yes! Of course, yes.
[Mr. Pantzer gazes at the ceiling and smiles.]
Tellez: You look pleased when you think about that.
Pantzer: Oh, yes. Sure. My mother was an expert cook. She went to finishing school and she knew what to do with little. She could turn little into something.
Tellez: Again, because she was a good mother.
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: Okay, and you discussed times being hard. Can you tell me the things that you remember about that? And try to think about it and go into a little bit of detail. And tell me what you remember feeling like. Do you remember being hungry, or—
Pantzer: I was hungry many times.
Tellez: And what was that like for you?
5 Due to Germany’s inability to import food and other goods, as well as the government’s faulty management of the food supply, the government began rationing scarce items. The shortages were particularly severe in Berlin due to break-ins at the city’s rationing centers. [citation needed here?] MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: Well, I’ll tell you a little example. Everything was rationed, okay? So we would get one slice of bread on a Monday. We would eat a half a slice and save the other half for the next day. Okay—[are] you with me?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: The next day we take that half a slice and put the whole slice there. So we had a whole slice of bread by Wednesday. On Wednesday, we’d take that slice of bread and replace it with a slice and a half for Thursday. And on Friday, we would go on a trip, or whatever, and we had our bread to take along. That’s how we got along on that.
Tellez: My goodness!
Pantzer: Yeah. You must remember, everything was rationed. We’re speaking about World War I now.
Tellez: What else do you remember about that time?
Pantzer: That’s about it?
Tellez: Do you remember it being hard in any other ways?
Pantzer: No. It was a normal life, you know.
Pam James: The eggs?
Pantzer: The what?
Pam James: The eggs—your mother and the eggs?
Pantzer: My mother and her age?
Pam James: eggs—
Tellez: Like chicken eggs—
Pam James: You mother went to the country and the eggs—
Pantzer: Oh, oh! [laughter] When she went harvesting at the farmers— When she came back— It was on a trade system then, you know, a barter system. You went to the farmer’s, you gave him a tablecloth or whatever, and they gave you some food to take. And she came home with some food and she had also some eggs. And this was now during the [Communist] Revolution.6 And they confiscated the eggs.
6 Here Pantzer most likely speaks of members of the Sparticist League, later renamed the Communist Party of Germany. Upon its renaming in 1919, the group joined the Cominterrn, an international Communist group formed in Moscow earlier that year. The Sparticist League played a major role in the German MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pam James: Who did, Uncle Gus?
Pantzer: The revolutionists— So she took the eggs [and] she smashed them on the railroad tracks. She says, “If my children can’t have them, you’re not going to have them either!” Bingo! That was that.
Tellez: And how did the revolutionaries respond to her doing that?
Pantzer: They didn’t do anything to her. She just walked off. Yeah.
Tellez: I see. Now, when they tried to take the eggs from her, did they threaten her?
Pantzer: No. They just wanted to keep them for themselves. They wanted to confiscate them. But she smashed them on the railroad tracks. She said, “My children can’t have them, you’re not going to have them either.”
Tellez: Well, she was brave!
Pantzer: She sure was! She had to be brave with five children. Yeah.
Tellez: Well, now, when you say the revolutionaries, are you talking about the communists?
Pantzer: The Bolsheviks, or communists, yes. This is now 1918, 1919.
Tellez: Okay, and at that time did your mother ever talk about them?
Pantzer: No.
Tellez: Did she ever express how she felt about the revolution?
Pantzer: No.
Tellez: Now, did you father fight in the war?
Pantzer: The whole thing.
Tellez: I see. And did your father ever express his feelings about that? Did he agree with the war?
Pantzer: I don’t know.
Tellez: Did your mother talk about how she felt?
November Revolution in 1918, which resulted in the expulsion of Keiser Wilhelm II from the throne, and the ultimate formation of the German Republic [citation needed here?]. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: She didn’t care for anything which had something to do with military. She had no use for the Keiser [Wilhelm, II], she had no use for anything military, because they were stranded over there and he was a military man.
Tellez: Now, when you say they were stranded over there, could you explain that?
Pantzer: Well, they were married here, then they went over there [to Berlin] with the children. And I think they had intentions of coming back, I don’t know. But anyway, they didn’t make it with the war. There was no transportation or anything, and as fate had it, they were stuck. I don’t know if they wanted to, or if they had to. But he had to serve in the army.
Tellez: Okay, and you say they were married here [in the United States]. Were they German citizens before coming here?
Pantzer: I don’t know what they were before, or what they were after.7
Tellez: Okay. But did they live in Germany before—I assume they were in the United States when they married, and then they went to Germany.
Pantzer: They were married here, yes. And they had the four children and they went over there in 19— Well, it must have been 1910. I came along in 1911. It must have been 1910 or 1911. 1910 I suppose. Yeah, yeah.
Pam James: But how did he go in the military if he wasn’t a German citizen?
Pantzer: Well, I don’t know if he was or not. I remember a telegram arrived, and he said, “Well, I have to go.” And that was it. Yeah.
Tellez: So you can still remember that.
Pantzer: Yeah. I remember that.
Tellez: How did that make you feel? Do you remember?
Pantzer: No feeling—
Tellez: You didn’t want him—
Pantzer: At the time I was what, three years old? You don’t have any personal feelings about those things. You accept it as they are. You don’t reason about anything.
Tellez: You didn’t feel afraid? Because sometimes children—
7 In a later, unrecorded conversation, Mr. Pantzer and Pam James clarified that indeed Max and Hedwig Pantzer lived in Germany prior to their travels to the United States where they met and married. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: You start reasoning later on why. But at that time, you don’t pay much attention to it. And the elders, they didn’t talk much about it.
Tellez: Do you remember how long your father was gone?
Pantzer: Until 1918.
Tellez: Now, did your mother—
Pantzer: What is this for?
Tellez: We’re trying to understand what life was like for people like you in Berlin at that time.
Pantzer: This isn’t being published in the newspaper is it?
Tellez: Oh, no, sir.
Pantzer: I mean my life is private, and it stays private.
Tellez: Oh, yes, sir. And if there’re any questions you don’t want to answer, that’s fine. But I do want you to know that sometimes researchers—
Pantzer: I don’t like to trash out my personal affairs to the public like that, you understand?
Tellez: Yes, sir. In that case, you should know that sometimes researchers will look at your story and sometimes they will use your story to teach students about what life was like for people in Berlin—
Pantzer: Well, we can speak in general terms, but not in personal terms.
Tellez: Okay. So, then, if you don’t want to discuss your—
Pantzer: As far as personal affairs, we call it closed.
Tellez: Okay. I got you. So, if something’s too personal, then you just let me know that you don’t want to answer that.
Pantzer: Anything personal stays personal.
Tellez: Okay.
Pam James: Uncle Gus, what about your father marching into Berlin with his military people? He was a lieutenant colonel. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: Say that again.
Pam James: You told me about your father marching into Berlin—
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes! At the end of the war, he walked in with his regiment in full uniform—the whole regiment—and he was [inaudible] you see, and nobody touched him. But I remember he had one of the sabers. You know—those mean looking deals? And he wiped the blood off in the kitchen. And my mother said, “What’d you do, kill a mouse?”
[laugher]
Pantzer: Cause she didn’t like anything military. Yeah.
Pam James: But the Bolsheviks, the revolutionaries, were afraid to [do anything upon the return of the soldiers] because all of the men were in military uniforms, and they didn’t touch them. They didn’t go near them.
Tellez: Oh, I see. Okay, that’s what you meant when you said, “No one would touch him.” And you’re smiling right now. Why are you smiling, Mr. Pantzer? What are you thinking about?
Pantzer: I’m thinking about my mother, the way she had no use for the Keiser, or anything which had something to do with the military.
Tellez: Was your mother a very peaceable person?
Pantzer: Very peaceable, and well educated, and she was a person’s person.
Pam James: What about the picture in the paper? You told me about the woman lying on the floor.
Pantzer: The what?
Pam James: Remember the woman lying on the floor and the—
Pantzer: Well, that was, in general, the conditions that there were at the time—through the Keiser’s days. It was a man’s world. And I remember a picture of a woman on the floor, and a law book on top of her, and a man stepping on the law book. It showed [that] the woman didn’t have much to say. It was a man’s world.
Tellez: Wow. That’s a lot different than you see things now.
Pantzer: Yeah. Right? Yeah.
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Tellez: What did your mother say about those types of things?
Pantzer: No discussion. My mother wouldn’t discuss those things with us.
Tellez: I see. Okay. The reason I ask you questions like that, Mr. Pantzer, is so that we can try to understand what women—how they felt at that time about the way things were—
Pantzer: Well, that’s how they felt, I guess.
Tellez: So they were quite comfortable with it then.
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes.
Tellez: Can you remember any of the holidays when you were still in Berlin?
Pantzer: The holidays?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: We had beautiful holidays!
Tellez: Describe those for me.
Pantzer: Christmas, Easter—there were always two holidays—like a first and the second. And they were well kept. And they were family holidays, and they were religious holidays. And they were celebrated accordingly. We kept Christ in Christmas—not in the department store.
Tellez: That’s nice. Let me see if I’m understanding you right. In other words, back then you concentrated on the religious part of Christmas more than you did on buying gifts or things like that.
Pantzer: Yes, yes. We celebrated for children with Christmas trees and Santa Claus, the way it’s customary, but we never forgot the reason why. You ask kids today, “why celebrate Easter,” they don’t know.
Tellez: Would you mind telling me what religion your family was? Because I take it your family was very religious.
Pantzer: I wouldn’t say very religious, but we were church-going people.
Tellez: And did you try to live according to your religious principles?
Pantzer: We lived accordingly.
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Tellez: Okay, and—
Pantzer: We practiced what we preached. We still practice what we preach.
Tellez: And what religion would you consider your family?
Pantzer: They were all Lutherans. The northern part of Germany, they’re all Lutherans. The southern parts are all Catholics. See, Germany is a younger nation than we are here. It became a real nation in 1871, after the Prussian war. Before, it was all provinces. Bavaria had their own king. The province of— You heard of Bavaria?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: It’s a province over there. They had their own king. And then after the— You heard of the Prussian-Franco war, 1870-1871?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Well, after that war, Bismarck was the chancellor, and he united Germany. And then it became what they call a German Reich. Before, it was all different provinces. That’s why you have the southern part Catholics, the northern parts are Lutherans. [Mr. Pantzer looks over at Brett and smiles] Hello Brett! Brett, there’s candy in that dish.
Tellez: Can you describe your community for me, in Berlin?
Pantzer: The what dear?
Tellez: Your community. What was the culture like; what were your neighbors like?
Pantzer: They were all fine people. But due to the circumstances, when there’s a war going on, and there’s a revolution, and inflation going on, the morale of the people gets to be depressed.
Tellez: Yes.
Pantzer: We were not as happy-go-lucky as we are here. Because here we have everything, over there they didn’t. See, that is the difference.
Tellez: And how would you say that depression affected the way people interacted with one another?
Pantzer: Well they were friendly to one another, but the standard of living was by far not as we have here. The standard of living was below par. And that, of course, leaves an impression on the person.
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Tellez: And what kind of impression would you say that leaves on a person? I know you say that they would be depressed—
Pantzer: Well, you try to lead a clean life and all, but you don’t have the luxuries as we have here, such as vacation, or automobiles, or so on and so forth. Right? So the standard of living, compared [to] what we have here, from the scale from ten to a hundred, we have a hundred, and they had twenty. That was the standard of living. Yes.
Tellez: Even for one who was considered better off than some of the other people?
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah. You existed. You lived, you existed, but you didn’t live as we live here.
Tellez: Did you ever feel afraid because of the things that—
Pantzer: Did I what?
Tellez: Did you ever feel afraid because of the way things were?
Pantzer: Afraid?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: I was never afraid in all my life.
Tellez: Oh, okay. That’s impressive. That’s great.
Pantzer: You know why?
Tellez: Why?
Pantzer: Because I got a partner with me all the time.
Tellez: And who is this partner? I’m only asking for the sake of the tape, Mr. Pantzer. [chuckle] I assume you’re referring to Jesus.
Pantzer: Well, yes, of course!
Tellez: I figured that’s what you meant, but I wanted to make sure that it’s clear for whoever hears the tape.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: Okay, do you remember your first job?
Pantzer: My first job? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: Could you describe that job for me?
Pantzer: Yes, I went with IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph], the National Telephone and Telegram. I went to this school, but they closed. Depression came along and they closed up the school. And then I went into customer service, because I was pretty good in languages. I had about six telephones at the desk there—bop, bop, bop, bop. [Mr. Pantzer makes a chopping motion with the side of his hand across an imaginary tabletop.] Of course, I had my training first, but it was an interesting job. But then I went into the restaurant business.
Tellez: Okay, so your first job, then, was in the United States?
Pantzer: Oh, yes!
Tellez: So you hadn’t started working yet when you were still in Berlin.
Pantzer: No, no. I went to school over there.
Tellez: Okay, now, I guess we’ve already talked a little bit about the turmoil that occurred at the end of the first World War. Is there anything that you would like to add about how that affected you personally?
Pantzer: About what?
Tellez: How the turmoil at the end of World War I affected you personally— Is there anything you would like to add about that?
Pantzer: About World War I?
Tellez: Well, about all of the chaos and the problems that—
Pantzer: Well, November 11, as you know, was Armistice Day, and the Keiser took off in the middle of the night. He went to Holland and the Bolsheviks took over. And the revolution was in full bloom. And, of course their was turmoil, and everything was a mess until the Republicans did away with the Bolsheviks. And then we had our first republic, which was founded in the city of Weimar. And the next president, his name was Fritz Ebert, E_B_E_R_T. He was the first president after World War I. He was a saddle maker. And then we had a parliament, and we had a government for the people, by the people.
Pam James: Uncle Gus— [Pam James addresses Tellez] Do you mind? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Tellez: No, no. Go ahead.
Pam James: You told me one time that one of the Bolshevik women was thrown in the canal.
Pantzer: The Bolshevik what?
Pam James: The woman? She was killed?
Pantzer: Oh yeah! Her name was Rosa Liepknecht. She was thrown into the river. She was a Bolshevik.
Pam James: Why do you remember her?
Pantzer: Well, you read about it and you talked about it, and it was the topic of the day at the time. And it was Rosa Liepknecht, dear. They found the body in the river. She was one of the revolutionists—the Bolsheviks.
Tellez: Did they ever find out who killed her?
Pantzer: No. Nobody [chuckle]—nobody killed her. She just disappeared. She went swimming. [chuckle]
Tellez: Now, are you joking? Is that what people said, or do you think that somebody—
Pantzer: [Mr. Pantzer becomes solemn.] No, somebody did away with her. A lot of lives were lost at the time.
Tellez: Okay. Are there any in particular that stick in your mind?
Pantzer: No, no, just in general.
Tellez: You were talking about Ebert. How did the people respond to him? And I ask because I would like to know what just the ordinary, everyday people [thought] instead of just what [we] read in the history books. Sometimes they don’t write things down the way they really were for most people. They’ll write it from the perspective of one person who’s doing the writing. So, how did the people that you knew in your community feel about him?
Pantzer: Well, they all felt the same way. They wanted peace. They wanted to sleep peacefully at night. And they wanted the country to be stabilized.
Tellez: So did they feel hopeful with him—that he would be able to stabilize things and bring peace?
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Pantzer: Well, yes, they—a lot of them were— There was a lot of pro and a lot of con.
Tellez: Do you remember any of your other relatives that were older, besides—like your grandfather, or others his age? Did they ever talk to you about what it was like when they were young? Did they ever tell you stories about when they were young, what things were like?
Pantzer: Oh, no, no. As I said, children and women were not exactly kept informed too well. Grown-up talk was grown-up talk.
Tellez: Oh, okay. And it was reserved for male grown-ups?
Pantzer: Yes, yes.
Tellez: Okay. That’s very interesting. Okay, now when you were still in Berlin— How old were you when you came to the United States?
Pantzer: I was seventeen.
Tellez: Now, while you were still there [in Berlin] could you describe for me what your self-identity was? How did you see yourself? I’ve been told a lot of German citizens had a very strong sense of German nationality. Did you see yourself that way?
Pantzer: When I came over?
Tellez: While you were still in Germany. Did you have a strong sense of German identity?
Pantzer: I was never a German citizen.
Tellez: Okay. So you didn’t relate to the country at all? Even though you had grown up there you didn’t see yourself as—
Pantzer: I was neutral.
Tellez: Neutral. Okay. That’s a good answer. That’s what I was trying to understand. Thank you. Okay, now, what exactly—if you can remember—what made you decide to leave Germany?
Pantzer: Well, first of reasons, the economy, and my brothers were all here [in the United States], and there was no future in Germany, so to speak.
Tellez: You had a sister also, correct?
Pantzer: Yes.
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Tellez: Was she here [in the United States] also, or did she—
Pantzer: No, she stayed there. She got married over there. But she came after. Yeah, she came after World War II. She came back here.
Tellez: Okay. And how about your parents?
Pantzer: Well, my mother came shortly after I came. My father was gone. But my mother came shortly after I came. After she settled things over there. And then we were all together here.
Tellez: Okay, and when you were— You explained to me why you wanted to leave Germany—because of the economy, and there was no future, and your brothers had moved here—[but] was there something in America that pulled you this way?
Pantzer: Well, I had my brothers here, and they said, “You learn a trade over here, and you live an entirely different life here than over there.” So, if you ate potatoes all day long, and somebody finally offers you roast beef— That’s what I did. How’s that, Pam?
Pam James: Sounds good to me.
[laughter]
Tellez: Okay. Before you left Berlin, you probably had a picture in your mind of what America was going to be like.
Pantzer: Oh, I knew what America was like. I read a lot.
Tellez: So, when you came to America, then, did it pretty much—
Pantzer: I was right at home.
Tellez: Okay. So it was just like you imagined, and you felt—
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay. And you say that with a smile, so I’m assuming you had a pleasant experience.
Pantzer: Those were happy, happy days!
END SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE
During this interval, Mr. Pantzer briefly discusses his journey on the ship from Berlin to New York; and discusses his mother once insulting two hung-over German soldiers who MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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sat in her living room. He reiterates the latter on side two of tape one, and the former on side .
________...(8 minutes)
BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE
Tellez: Okay, go ahead. I’m sorry.
Pantzer: Well those two fellows [German Soldiers], they must have done the night. And they were sitting there in the salon. And the maid came and said to my mother, “The (?lupzumla?)”—that’s the fellows collecting old clothes—“is here.” And [my mother] said, “tell em to come in. there’s two sitting over there. [referring to the soldiers seated in the salon] Take them along.”
[laughter]
Pantzer: That didn’t do too well with the fellows in the fancy uniforms, but she thought that was real hittin on the head, because they were two bums. Yeah, she says, “take them along.”
[laughter]
Tellez: And did they say anything?
Pantzer: Oh, no, no, no! After that I disappeared [to] some other room. I don’t know what took place. But, yeah. I remember a Colonel [inaudible] opened a cigarette case and tried to offer my mother a cigarette, you see. And the old man [Mr. Pantzer’s father] said, “how can you offer my wife such an expensive cigarette?” And she took the cigarette, [and] she says, “Here! You smoke it!” She was very insulted. And he said, “How can you offer my wife such an expensive cigarette?”
Pam James: That was a mean thing to say.
Pantzer: She took that cigarette and says, “Here! You smoke it!”
[laughter]
Pantzer: I remember those things. Yeah.
[laughter]
Pam James: Uncle Gus, what did you get for Christmas when you were little?
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Pantzer: Well, different things. They usually made things themselves. We got good Christmas presents.
Pam James: Like, would your mother sew you clothes, or what?
Pantzer: Well, there were toys, and it was customary over there— You never saw the Christmas tree before Christmas Eve. That was in one of the rooms. Okay? And the Christmas tree had light candles. Beautiful! And every child had a place under the tree with the presents, and what you called “a plate with goody goodies” on them—apple, and orange, and candies—you know, a dish. We always counted ours [to] make sure that our mother didn’t half-serve our plate, you know. And Christmas was always nice, you know.
Pam James: Did you have to perform for the adults?
Pantzer: A what?
Pam James: Did the children have to perform for the adults?
Pantzer: Oh, yes. We had to recite till Santa Clause came. And we had [to] make our vows and we had [to] recite poetry. Sure. Yep, yep.
Tellez: Okay. Mr. Pantzer, could you tell me—if you had to think back and remember your fondest childhood memory, what would that be?
Pantzer: My what?
Tellez: Your most fond childhood memory—the one that you’re the happiest about—
Pantzer: When I put my foot on the United States’ property.
Tellez: I see. Okay, now, you discussed before about coming over on the boat, and the girls and the food, and I’m assuming that you had not had an abundance of food up to that point.
Pantzer: No.
Tellez: Okay, so, it was rough the entire time in Berlin, until you got on the boat [which was] the S.S. Berlin.
Pantzer: At the time they had thirty-six different parties over there [in Germany]—political parties—and they were all fighting. And I mean physically fighting.
[An audio clock announces the time and Mr. Pantzer repeats it.]
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Pantzer: It’s four o’clock. Yeah. They had that many parties there. So there was a lot of unrest. Yeah. So when I got off the boat—my brothers were at the pier—I says, “hallelujah!”
[laughter]
Tellez: So your brothers were there.
Pantzer: Oh, yes! Sure. We had our own apartment right away. Everything was taken care of.
Tellez: And where that apartment was—that first apartment you lived in when you got to the United States—what was the community like there?
Pantzer: Well, it was Uptown New York. It was a mixed community. Yeah. There were a lot of Jewish people living there, I remember. We used to have a lot of fun together.
Tellez: What would y’all do?
Pantzer: Well, they had a holiday, Yom Kippur. The women would stay in bed, and the men would come upstairs and play pinochle with us. And my mother would make ham and eggs for breakfast. And then afterwards, we all went together downstairs and enjoyed the evening meals. And we all go along well.
Pam James: But they didn’t eat the ham.
Pantzer: The what?
Pam James: They didn’t eat the ham if it was Yom Kippur.
[Mr. Pantzer grins knowingly and raises his eyebrows.]
Pantzer: They ate the ham. [Pantzer waves his hand as though brushing something aside.]
Pam James: They did?
[laughter]
Tellez: I like that little wave of the hand!
Pantzer: The ate the ham—don’t you worry! [chuckle]
[laughter]
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Tellez: Mr. Pantzer, you said earlier that your mother came shortly after you—to the United States—and you said that your father was gone. And you don’t have to answer this if you don’t want, but would you mind telling us where your father went?
Pantzer: I don’t know.
Tellez: He just left?
[Mr. Pantzer nods.]
Tellez: Okay, and so, then, your mother stayed there [in Berlin], I guess by herself for a short time.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: And how did you feel about that? Did you worry about her?
Pantzer: No. No feeling.
Tellez: Okay. Now, I asked you abut your fondest childhood memory, and now I would like to ask you about what your worst childhood memory was.
Pantzer: My what?
Tellez: Your worst childhood memory—the worst thing that you remember when you were growing up—
Pantzer: Gee, I can’t’ really remember that.
Tellez: No? You don’t remember—
Pantzer: I was not in the habit—and I’m still not in the habit—of remembering bad things. Bad things you erase form your mind. Otherwise, you have roots growing in your head. You don’t want that. You only have pleasant thoughts.
Tellez: Is this something your mother taught you?
Pantzer: We were all happy.
Tellez: Okay. And this is a philosophy you learned from your mother?
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Your mother sounds like she was a beautiful woman.
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Pantzer: She sure was! Never, never let bad things take over! You erase them from your mind, and think about good things, and you have a better life.
Tellez: I’ll remember that, Mr. Pantzer. Thank you. That’s good advice. It’s healthy. Okay, so before we close for today—because next time we’re going to start with your experiences in America—
Pantzer: We gonna meet again with this?
Tellez: If that’s okay with you, because we would like to go further throughout your life and— You know, because there’re things you can tell us about your life that other people can’t tell us about.
Pantzer: Well, what’s unknown?
Pam James: But the depression, and Tante [Aunt] Katie.
Pantzer: The what?
Pam James: How you met Aunt Katie, and the depression.
Tellez: Yeah. See, we want to find out how you met your wife, and about your kids. And I’ll explain to you why that is, Mr. Pantzer. When people write history, they usually only write about the most powerful, important people, or from the perspective, you know, or the richest people. We very seldom hear the stories of the ordinary people—the working class, or the small business owners—and so we want to know what life was like for those people. And the only way we can find that out is by talking to people like you and hearing your stories. And so now a days a lot of historians like myself are doing these oral interviews with people and collecting them, so that we can find out about history form the everyday people.
Pantzer: Sure. Sure. [Mr. Pantzer nods his head approvingly.]
Tellez: And what we do with this is we keep it in archives. And they [the recordings] will be there for hundreds of years. So five, six hundred years from now students will read about your story, or hear about it in a lecture from a professor, and other people’s stories, and then they’ll know what it was really like for an immigrant who came in on a boat to New York and started a restaurant. Do you understand what I’m saying? Do you see what I mean?
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: That’s why your story is so important.
Pantzer: Okay.
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Tellez: And so it will be used by students and professors. So, before we close today—keeping that in mind—thinking of future generations who will study your story—what would you most like for those students to now about your experiences growing up in Germany, and your experiences as a new citizen of the United States?
Pantzer: Now say that again.
Tellez: Okay. What would you most like future students to know about what life was like growing up in Germany during your time there, and about being a new citizen in the United States?
Pantzer: Well, as I said, the standard of living was , as I said, from hundred to twenty. That’s basically saying everything. It affects not only the stomach, but the mind, and the behavior. So you have a different population over there than you have here. I don’t know how it is now. Things have changed a lot over there. But in my days, they’re all a grim. And when I came here, people, they were happy.
Tellez: Okay, and so that’s what you would most like for people to know.
Pantzer: Yeah. The first thing my brother did, he took me to an ice-cream parlor and he bought me a banana split, which was— I never saw anything like that before. And it was twenty-five cents. And I thought that was terrific. And it was terrific because they had the sugar and the salt and pepper, the napkins, everything on the table, all right? You remember those little ice-cream parlors we used to have?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: And sugar, and salt and pepper, and napkins, everything on the table. You don’t have that on the other side [in Germany] in my days. There was nothing on the table because there was nothing to begin with. And if there was, people might take it. So there’s one difference right there, basically. That sums it up pretty much, you know.
Tellez: Yeah, that does. That gives a very vivid picture of the difference.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: That’s a good example.
Pantzer: Yeah. Little things tell a lot of basic things. Little things put together show you a lot of big basic things. If you know where to look for them.
END SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE
After the recording ends, Tellez thanks Mr. Pantzer for his time. Mr. Pantzer then mentions having attended a speech by Adolph Hitler prior to leaving Berlin. He discusses this in more detail on tape two.

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University of Texas at San Antonio Archives and Special Collections
MS 315. Veterans History Project
Gustav Pantzer, Interview I, December 26, 2006
This first interview with Mr. Gustav Pantzer took place on December 26, 2006 in Mr. Pantzer’s home in San Antonio, Texas. Also present were Mr. Pantzer’s niece, Pam James, and her son, Brett James.
BEGIN SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE
Tellez: Okay. Today’s date is December 26, 2006. And, Mr. Pantzer, if you could, please state your full name.
Pantzer: Gustav Pantzer— G_U_S_T_A_V—
Tellez: Okay, thank you. And, Mr. Pantzer, do I have your permission to record this interview?
Pantzer: You sure have my permission.
Tellez: Thank you very much. Okay, well, we’ll start now. First of all, I’d like to ask you when you were born.
Pantzer: July 16, 1911
Tellez: And where were you born, Mr. Pantzer?
Pantzer: Berlin Germany
Tellez: How long did you live there?
Pantzer: until 1929
Tellez: Who were your parents, Mr. Pantzer?
Pantzer: My parents?
Tellez: yes, sir
Pantzer: At the time?
[laughter]
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Tellez: yes, sir
Pantzer: The first name?
Tellez: yeah, both of your parents’ names
Pantzer: Well, my mother’s name was Hedwig; my father’s name was Max.
Tellez: Okay. Did your parents ever tell you how they met?
Pantzer: They met in New York some place. I don’t know how. They were married in New York City.1
Tellez: Okay— And, Mr. Pantzer, what did your father do?
Pantzer: He was a merchant.
Tellez: And how about your mother? What did your mother do?
Pantzer: She was a housewife and mother of five children.
Tellez: A noble profession— Your father was a merchant. What did your father sell? Was there any type of goods—
Pantzer: No, he was engaged in some firm. I don’t know the name of the firm.
Tellez: Oh, I see. Okay. Now could you tell me a little bit about what your father was like?
Pantzer: What he looked like?
Tellez: Well, [tell me] what kind of person he was.
Pantzer: Well, for a while he was in the military, and that didn’t help make a good man out of him. It changed his personality. And due to the fact that he came from very, very
1 Max and Hedwig Pantzer both lived in Germany before traveling to New York City where they met. After having four children, including three boys and one girl, the Pantzers moved back to Germany, settling in Berlin. A short time later, Hedwig Pantzer gave birth to Gustav Pantzer in Berlin. The family originally planned to return to the United States; however, due to transportation and economic problems caused by World War I, the family was unable to leave. Descendents of Max Pantzer claim that Max lost his German citizenship prior to his return to Germany, but the reason remains a mystery. There seems to be a discrepancy here, since Max Pantzer served as an officer for Keiser Wilhelm, II during World War I. This seems an unlikely event for a non-citizen, and no known explanation for Max’s loss of citizenship exists. Consequently, Gustav Pantzer never gained German citizenship. Hedwig Pantzer later moved back New York to join all but one of her children subsequent to their own immigration to the United States. Max Pantzer apparently left the family prior to their departure. Interestingly, Hedwig Pantzer’s immigration card reads, “nationality uncertain.” (see photo number one) MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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rich people, I understand he was not the most ambitious man. He depended a lot on his father’s money. That’s what I understand. So the relationship between my father and myself was rather nil.
Tellez: Oh, okay. So y’all didn’t really have much of a relationship.
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: And how did you feel about that?
Pantzer: How did I feel about it?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Uh, I felt about it no feeling.
Tellez: You never wished that you could have had a closer relationship with him?
Pantzer: no relationship whatsoever—
Tellez: I see. And when you say that the military changed him, it changed his personality. I think that’s what you mean, right?
Pantzer: Well, I think that didn’t help—with other things—with other unpleasant details. Yeah, too much money—in his pocket, not in my pocket—
Tellez: Oh, I see. So then, I guess you— Did you consider your father a good provider then, or not?
Pantzer: The grandfather was the provider.
Tellez: So I take it then your grandfather helped take care of you, your siblings and your mother.
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: And this was your paternal grandfather, or your maternal grandfather? Your father’s father—
Pantzer: It was my father’s father.
Tellez: I see. Can you tell me a little bit about your grandfather?
Pantzer: About what?
Tellez: Your grandfather. The one who helped you. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: Oh, well, he was a gentleman! And he was the owner of a very large lumberyard. At the time, I remember, he was retired then. And he lived in a very luxurious home. He was what you call a “multimillionaire.” But [he] did a lot for the family. That’s all I remember about him.
Tellez: Do you remember anything about his personality?
Pantzer: A very fine gentleman—
Tellez: And I take it he spent quite a bit of time with you and your siblings.
Pantzer: Well, whenever the opportunity arose we spent time together, yes.
Tellez: Now, how about your mother—can you tell me a little bit about your mother?
Pantzer: She was a good housewife and a good mother. That’s all I could tell you about her.
Tellez: Were you and your mother close?
Pantzer: Oh, yes!
Tellez: As far as your immediate family—your siblings and your parents—would you have considered your family lower, middle, or upper income?
Pantzer: My own family?
Tellez: Yes, sir. Your parents, your brothers and sisters, and you.
Pantzer: Well, repeat that. The income of what—my family, my own family, or my father’s family?
Tellez: Your father’s family. Your brothers and sisters, and you and your mother and father.
Pantzer: What about it?
Tellez: What income [bracket] would you say you were in? Would you say it was lower income—
Pantzer: Oh, I don’t know what—they were not working.2
2 This seems to conflict with Pantzer’s earlier assertion that his father worked as a merchant for a German firm. However, according to subsequent, unrecorded statements by Gustav Pantzer and Pam James, Max Pantzer spent most of his time out of work, and kept what money he did earn to himself. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Tellez: Oh, so you were poor?
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay.
Pantzer: Now—did you say—what?
Tellez: I asked if your family was poor.
Pantzer: No, no. They had maids and what have you. Oh, yes—they were very well-to-do.
Tellez: Your parents’ family?
Pantzer: Well, yes. As I said, my grandfather saw to it that we lived a very fine life. I wouldn’t say luxurious, but my mother always had a maid, and beautiful homes, and whatever times permitted, you see. We lived what they call—for awhile—“in luxury.”
Tellez: Oh, okay. So, your grandfather really was nice.
Pantzer: Oh! He left me a lot of money in his last will, but all the inflation ate it all up.3
Tellez: Yeah, that’s too bad. Okay, you say there were five of you. Did that include you with your brothers and sisters, or with you it was six? How many brothers and sisters did you have?
Pantzer: I had three brothers and one sister. And I was the youngest.
Tellez: What kind of relationship did you have with your brothers and sisters?
Pantzer: A wonderful relationship—
Tellez: Oh, good. And wonderful in what way?
Pantzer: Well, as brothers and sisters should have.
Tellez: So you were close and—
Pantzer: Well, yes. We were brothers and sisters.
Tellez: And when you say “a relationship that brothers and sisters should have”—you know some people may think that means one thing, and other people may think it means
3 Here Mr. Pantzer refers to the inflation crises that occurred after World War I when the German economy suffered due to the cost of war and Germany struggled to pay war reparations imposed by the 1919 Treaty of Versailles. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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another. In your opinion, Mr. Pantzer, what kind of relationship do you think that brothers and sisters should have?
Pantzer: Well, one will help the other.
Tellez: Okay. That makes good sense to me. Okay, this is going to be a strange question, but you can think about it for a few moments if you like. What is your earliest memory of your childhood?
Pantzer: The earliest memory?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: The first prayer that my mother taught me—
Tellez: Do you remember that prayer?
Pantzer: Yes I do.
Tellez: Could you recite it?
Pantzer: Well, it’s in German, but I can translate it.
Tellez: Okay.
Pantzer: God make me pious that I might get into heaven. That’s the translation.
Tellez: That’s beautiful. So I take it that was a—
Pantzer: That was in 1914.
Pam James: In German?
Tellez: Yes, say it in German.
[Mr. Pantzer recites the prayer in German—need spelling]
Pantzer: Did you get that?
[laughter]
Tellez: No, but it’s on the tape, Mr. Pantzer, and I’m going to have a heck of a time trying to type that!
[laughter]
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Pantzer: Well, Brett got it.
Tellez: Would you say that those were the type of morals your mother lived by?
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes. An example of a mother! Okay?
Tellez: Could you elaborate on that a little bit?
Pantzer: Would else could I elaborate? She’s an example of a mother. What do mothers do? They take care of their children, and she did.
Tellez: What would you consider a typical day for your family? What did y’all do on a typical day when you were a child?
Pantzer: We had a normal school life and a normal social life, and a normal religious life.
Pam James: Would the maid serve you breakfast in the morning? Would you sit down for breakfast with your family?
Pantzer: Oh, yes, sure—a regular family life—
Tellez: So you would have breakfast together, and then go to school—
Pantzer: What we did, we did together.
Tellez: That’s beautiful. Okay, and when you came home from school, what would y’all do after school?
Pantzer: The first thing, I changed my clothes, and then we had a bite to eat, if possible. And then we did our homework, and then we went outside to take part in sports, or whatever, for play. Then we came back before it was dark, and we ate, and we prayed, and then we go to bed.
Tellez: Okay. You mentioned school— What was your school like?
Pantzer: Oh, it was a very hard school, but very pleasant. And one of the finer schools of Berlin. Which gave me, I’d say, a fairly good education. That’s why I stayed until 1929.
Tellez: So your school was one of the better schools in Berlin, and—
Pantzer: Well, the curriculum was Latin, English and French, and everything else. So it wasn’t easy, but it was well accepted in business. When you graduated from that school you had one plus.
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Tellez: So it was considered prestigious.
Pantzer: Yes, yes. You had to pay for that.
Tellez: And I take it your grandfather then made sure that y’all went to—
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes— [My grandfather paid] thirty bucks every month.
Tellez: Thank you for telling me that. See, that type of information—when you tell me how much the school cost, and things like that—those are important when you’re talking about your history because it tells us something about what life was like for you at that time, and for other people. Okay, now, when you would sit down to dinner with your family, what kinds of things did your family talk about? Do you remember?
Pantzer: What kind of what?
Tellez: What kind of subjects did your family talk about at dinner? If you can remember—
Pantzer: I don’t remember.
Tellez: Okay, that’s fine.
Pantzer: It was customary, when you had a dinner guest, that someone would give a table talk.4
Tellez: What was a table talk? Tell me about that.
Pantzer: Well, say we have a party here of eight or so, somebody would have to get up and give a table talk on current events or whatever. But that was customary—besides the invocation.
Tellez: Okay, and who decided who would give the table talk?
Pantzer: I wouldn’t. I was a boy. I did my listening, and probably didn’t understand what they were talking about.
Tellez: Did they discuss politics?
4 A table talk is an informal speech-like conversation at a dining table—usually delivered by an honored and important guest. The practice of recording table talks of famous individuals became common in the 17th century, but collections of table talks by famous or otherwise important people go back to the 3rd century AD. The term became part of the English language around the 16th century. [citation needed here?] MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: Probably. As I said, I probably didn’t even know what they were talking about. All I [knew was] that they were standing up and bop, bop, bop. [Mr. Pantzer makes a chopping motion with the side of his hand]
[laughter]
Pantzer: I just kept on eating.
Tellez: When you ate dinner, what kind of foods did you like to eat?
Pantzer: What kind of food?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Whatever was available at the time. Remember, those were hard times. Those were war times, and inflation times, so food was pretty scarce at the time.5 So, we were happy with what we got.
Pam James: Did you ever have potato pancakes?
Pantzer: Oh, yes! Of course, yes.
[Mr. Pantzer gazes at the ceiling and smiles.]
Tellez: You look pleased when you think about that.
Pantzer: Oh, yes. Sure. My mother was an expert cook. She went to finishing school and she knew what to do with little. She could turn little into something.
Tellez: Again, because she was a good mother.
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: Okay, and you discussed times being hard. Can you tell me the things that you remember about that? And try to think about it and go into a little bit of detail. And tell me what you remember feeling like. Do you remember being hungry, or—
Pantzer: I was hungry many times.
Tellez: And what was that like for you?
5 Due to Germany’s inability to import food and other goods, as well as the government’s faulty management of the food supply, the government began rationing scarce items. The shortages were particularly severe in Berlin due to break-ins at the city’s rationing centers. [citation needed here?] MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: Well, I’ll tell you a little example. Everything was rationed, okay? So we would get one slice of bread on a Monday. We would eat a half a slice and save the other half for the next day. Okay—[are] you with me?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: The next day we take that half a slice and put the whole slice there. So we had a whole slice of bread by Wednesday. On Wednesday, we’d take that slice of bread and replace it with a slice and a half for Thursday. And on Friday, we would go on a trip, or whatever, and we had our bread to take along. That’s how we got along on that.
Tellez: My goodness!
Pantzer: Yeah. You must remember, everything was rationed. We’re speaking about World War I now.
Tellez: What else do you remember about that time?
Pantzer: That’s about it?
Tellez: Do you remember it being hard in any other ways?
Pantzer: No. It was a normal life, you know.
Pam James: The eggs?
Pantzer: The what?
Pam James: The eggs—your mother and the eggs?
Pantzer: My mother and her age?
Pam James: eggs—
Tellez: Like chicken eggs—
Pam James: You mother went to the country and the eggs—
Pantzer: Oh, oh! [laughter] When she went harvesting at the farmers— When she came back— It was on a trade system then, you know, a barter system. You went to the farmer’s, you gave him a tablecloth or whatever, and they gave you some food to take. And she came home with some food and she had also some eggs. And this was now during the [Communist] Revolution.6 And they confiscated the eggs.
6 Here Pantzer most likely speaks of members of the Sparticist League, later renamed the Communist Party of Germany. Upon its renaming in 1919, the group joined the Cominterrn, an international Communist group formed in Moscow earlier that year. The Sparticist League played a major role in the German MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pam James: Who did, Uncle Gus?
Pantzer: The revolutionists— So she took the eggs [and] she smashed them on the railroad tracks. She says, “If my children can’t have them, you’re not going to have them either!” Bingo! That was that.
Tellez: And how did the revolutionaries respond to her doing that?
Pantzer: They didn’t do anything to her. She just walked off. Yeah.
Tellez: I see. Now, when they tried to take the eggs from her, did they threaten her?
Pantzer: No. They just wanted to keep them for themselves. They wanted to confiscate them. But she smashed them on the railroad tracks. She said, “My children can’t have them, you’re not going to have them either.”
Tellez: Well, she was brave!
Pantzer: She sure was! She had to be brave with five children. Yeah.
Tellez: Well, now, when you say the revolutionaries, are you talking about the communists?
Pantzer: The Bolsheviks, or communists, yes. This is now 1918, 1919.
Tellez: Okay, and at that time did your mother ever talk about them?
Pantzer: No.
Tellez: Did she ever express how she felt about the revolution?
Pantzer: No.
Tellez: Now, did you father fight in the war?
Pantzer: The whole thing.
Tellez: I see. And did your father ever express his feelings about that? Did he agree with the war?
Pantzer: I don’t know.
Tellez: Did your mother talk about how she felt?
November Revolution in 1918, which resulted in the expulsion of Keiser Wilhelm II from the throne, and the ultimate formation of the German Republic [citation needed here?]. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: She didn’t care for anything which had something to do with military. She had no use for the Keiser [Wilhelm, II], she had no use for anything military, because they were stranded over there and he was a military man.
Tellez: Now, when you say they were stranded over there, could you explain that?
Pantzer: Well, they were married here, then they went over there [to Berlin] with the children. And I think they had intentions of coming back, I don’t know. But anyway, they didn’t make it with the war. There was no transportation or anything, and as fate had it, they were stuck. I don’t know if they wanted to, or if they had to. But he had to serve in the army.
Tellez: Okay, and you say they were married here [in the United States]. Were they German citizens before coming here?
Pantzer: I don’t know what they were before, or what they were after.7
Tellez: Okay. But did they live in Germany before—I assume they were in the United States when they married, and then they went to Germany.
Pantzer: They were married here, yes. And they had the four children and they went over there in 19— Well, it must have been 1910. I came along in 1911. It must have been 1910 or 1911. 1910 I suppose. Yeah, yeah.
Pam James: But how did he go in the military if he wasn’t a German citizen?
Pantzer: Well, I don’t know if he was or not. I remember a telegram arrived, and he said, “Well, I have to go.” And that was it. Yeah.
Tellez: So you can still remember that.
Pantzer: Yeah. I remember that.
Tellez: How did that make you feel? Do you remember?
Pantzer: No feeling—
Tellez: You didn’t want him—
Pantzer: At the time I was what, three years old? You don’t have any personal feelings about those things. You accept it as they are. You don’t reason about anything.
Tellez: You didn’t feel afraid? Because sometimes children—
7 In a later, unrecorded conversation, Mr. Pantzer and Pam James clarified that indeed Max and Hedwig Pantzer lived in Germany prior to their travels to the United States where they met and married. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: You start reasoning later on why. But at that time, you don’t pay much attention to it. And the elders, they didn’t talk much about it.
Tellez: Do you remember how long your father was gone?
Pantzer: Until 1918.
Tellez: Now, did your mother—
Pantzer: What is this for?
Tellez: We’re trying to understand what life was like for people like you in Berlin at that time.
Pantzer: This isn’t being published in the newspaper is it?
Tellez: Oh, no, sir.
Pantzer: I mean my life is private, and it stays private.
Tellez: Oh, yes, sir. And if there’re any questions you don’t want to answer, that’s fine. But I do want you to know that sometimes researchers—
Pantzer: I don’t like to trash out my personal affairs to the public like that, you understand?
Tellez: Yes, sir. In that case, you should know that sometimes researchers will look at your story and sometimes they will use your story to teach students about what life was like for people in Berlin—
Pantzer: Well, we can speak in general terms, but not in personal terms.
Tellez: Okay. So, then, if you don’t want to discuss your—
Pantzer: As far as personal affairs, we call it closed.
Tellez: Okay. I got you. So, if something’s too personal, then you just let me know that you don’t want to answer that.
Pantzer: Anything personal stays personal.
Tellez: Okay.
Pam James: Uncle Gus, what about your father marching into Berlin with his military people? He was a lieutenant colonel. MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Pantzer: Say that again.
Pam James: You told me about your father marching into Berlin—
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes! At the end of the war, he walked in with his regiment in full uniform—the whole regiment—and he was [inaudible] you see, and nobody touched him. But I remember he had one of the sabers. You know—those mean looking deals? And he wiped the blood off in the kitchen. And my mother said, “What’d you do, kill a mouse?”
[laugher]
Pantzer: Cause she didn’t like anything military. Yeah.
Pam James: But the Bolsheviks, the revolutionaries, were afraid to [do anything upon the return of the soldiers] because all of the men were in military uniforms, and they didn’t touch them. They didn’t go near them.
Tellez: Oh, I see. Okay, that’s what you meant when you said, “No one would touch him.” And you’re smiling right now. Why are you smiling, Mr. Pantzer? What are you thinking about?
Pantzer: I’m thinking about my mother, the way she had no use for the Keiser, or anything which had something to do with the military.
Tellez: Was your mother a very peaceable person?
Pantzer: Very peaceable, and well educated, and she was a person’s person.
Pam James: What about the picture in the paper? You told me about the woman lying on the floor.
Pantzer: The what?
Pam James: Remember the woman lying on the floor and the—
Pantzer: Well, that was, in general, the conditions that there were at the time—through the Keiser’s days. It was a man’s world. And I remember a picture of a woman on the floor, and a law book on top of her, and a man stepping on the law book. It showed [that] the woman didn’t have much to say. It was a man’s world.
Tellez: Wow. That’s a lot different than you see things now.
Pantzer: Yeah. Right? Yeah.
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Tellez: What did your mother say about those types of things?
Pantzer: No discussion. My mother wouldn’t discuss those things with us.
Tellez: I see. Okay. The reason I ask you questions like that, Mr. Pantzer, is so that we can try to understand what women—how they felt at that time about the way things were—
Pantzer: Well, that’s how they felt, I guess.
Tellez: So they were quite comfortable with it then.
Pantzer: Oh, yes, yes.
Tellez: Can you remember any of the holidays when you were still in Berlin?
Pantzer: The holidays?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: We had beautiful holidays!
Tellez: Describe those for me.
Pantzer: Christmas, Easter—there were always two holidays—like a first and the second. And they were well kept. And they were family holidays, and they were religious holidays. And they were celebrated accordingly. We kept Christ in Christmas—not in the department store.
Tellez: That’s nice. Let me see if I’m understanding you right. In other words, back then you concentrated on the religious part of Christmas more than you did on buying gifts or things like that.
Pantzer: Yes, yes. We celebrated for children with Christmas trees and Santa Claus, the way it’s customary, but we never forgot the reason why. You ask kids today, “why celebrate Easter,” they don’t know.
Tellez: Would you mind telling me what religion your family was? Because I take it your family was very religious.
Pantzer: I wouldn’t say very religious, but we were church-going people.
Tellez: And did you try to live according to your religious principles?
Pantzer: We lived accordingly.
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Tellez: Okay, and—
Pantzer: We practiced what we preached. We still practice what we preach.
Tellez: And what religion would you consider your family?
Pantzer: They were all Lutherans. The northern part of Germany, they’re all Lutherans. The southern parts are all Catholics. See, Germany is a younger nation than we are here. It became a real nation in 1871, after the Prussian war. Before, it was all provinces. Bavaria had their own king. The province of— You heard of Bavaria?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: It’s a province over there. They had their own king. And then after the— You heard of the Prussian-Franco war, 1870-1871?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Well, after that war, Bismarck was the chancellor, and he united Germany. And then it became what they call a German Reich. Before, it was all different provinces. That’s why you have the southern part Catholics, the northern parts are Lutherans. [Mr. Pantzer looks over at Brett and smiles] Hello Brett! Brett, there’s candy in that dish.
Tellez: Can you describe your community for me, in Berlin?
Pantzer: The what dear?
Tellez: Your community. What was the culture like; what were your neighbors like?
Pantzer: They were all fine people. But due to the circumstances, when there’s a war going on, and there’s a revolution, and inflation going on, the morale of the people gets to be depressed.
Tellez: Yes.
Pantzer: We were not as happy-go-lucky as we are here. Because here we have everything, over there they didn’t. See, that is the difference.
Tellez: And how would you say that depression affected the way people interacted with one another?
Pantzer: Well they were friendly to one another, but the standard of living was by far not as we have here. The standard of living was below par. And that, of course, leaves an impression on the person.
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Tellez: And what kind of impression would you say that leaves on a person? I know you say that they would be depressed—
Pantzer: Well, you try to lead a clean life and all, but you don’t have the luxuries as we have here, such as vacation, or automobiles, or so on and so forth. Right? So the standard of living, compared [to] what we have here, from the scale from ten to a hundred, we have a hundred, and they had twenty. That was the standard of living. Yes.
Tellez: Even for one who was considered better off than some of the other people?
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah. You existed. You lived, you existed, but you didn’t live as we live here.
Tellez: Did you ever feel afraid because of the things that—
Pantzer: Did I what?
Tellez: Did you ever feel afraid because of the way things were?
Pantzer: Afraid?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: I was never afraid in all my life.
Tellez: Oh, okay. That’s impressive. That’s great.
Pantzer: You know why?
Tellez: Why?
Pantzer: Because I got a partner with me all the time.
Tellez: And who is this partner? I’m only asking for the sake of the tape, Mr. Pantzer. [chuckle] I assume you’re referring to Jesus.
Pantzer: Well, yes, of course!
Tellez: I figured that’s what you meant, but I wanted to make sure that it’s clear for whoever hears the tape.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: Okay, do you remember your first job?
Pantzer: My first job? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: Yes.
Tellez: Could you describe that job for me?
Pantzer: Yes, I went with IT&T [International Telephone and Telegraph], the National Telephone and Telegram. I went to this school, but they closed. Depression came along and they closed up the school. And then I went into customer service, because I was pretty good in languages. I had about six telephones at the desk there—bop, bop, bop, bop. [Mr. Pantzer makes a chopping motion with the side of his hand across an imaginary tabletop.] Of course, I had my training first, but it was an interesting job. But then I went into the restaurant business.
Tellez: Okay, so your first job, then, was in the United States?
Pantzer: Oh, yes!
Tellez: So you hadn’t started working yet when you were still in Berlin.
Pantzer: No, no. I went to school over there.
Tellez: Okay, now, I guess we’ve already talked a little bit about the turmoil that occurred at the end of the first World War. Is there anything that you would like to add about how that affected you personally?
Pantzer: About what?
Tellez: How the turmoil at the end of World War I affected you personally— Is there anything you would like to add about that?
Pantzer: About World War I?
Tellez: Well, about all of the chaos and the problems that—
Pantzer: Well, November 11, as you know, was Armistice Day, and the Keiser took off in the middle of the night. He went to Holland and the Bolsheviks took over. And the revolution was in full bloom. And, of course their was turmoil, and everything was a mess until the Republicans did away with the Bolsheviks. And then we had our first republic, which was founded in the city of Weimar. And the next president, his name was Fritz Ebert, E_B_E_R_T. He was the first president after World War I. He was a saddle maker. And then we had a parliament, and we had a government for the people, by the people.
Pam James: Uncle Gus— [Pam James addresses Tellez] Do you mind? MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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Tellez: No, no. Go ahead.
Pam James: You told me one time that one of the Bolshevik women was thrown in the canal.
Pantzer: The Bolshevik what?
Pam James: The woman? She was killed?
Pantzer: Oh yeah! Her name was Rosa Liepknecht. She was thrown into the river. She was a Bolshevik.
Pam James: Why do you remember her?
Pantzer: Well, you read about it and you talked about it, and it was the topic of the day at the time. And it was Rosa Liepknecht, dear. They found the body in the river. She was one of the revolutionists—the Bolsheviks.
Tellez: Did they ever find out who killed her?
Pantzer: No. Nobody [chuckle]—nobody killed her. She just disappeared. She went swimming. [chuckle]
Tellez: Now, are you joking? Is that what people said, or do you think that somebody—
Pantzer: [Mr. Pantzer becomes solemn.] No, somebody did away with her. A lot of lives were lost at the time.
Tellez: Okay. Are there any in particular that stick in your mind?
Pantzer: No, no, just in general.
Tellez: You were talking about Ebert. How did the people respond to him? And I ask because I would like to know what just the ordinary, everyday people [thought] instead of just what [we] read in the history books. Sometimes they don’t write things down the way they really were for most people. They’ll write it from the perspective of one person who’s doing the writing. So, how did the people that you knew in your community feel about him?
Pantzer: Well, they all felt the same way. They wanted peace. They wanted to sleep peacefully at night. And they wanted the country to be stabilized.
Tellez: So did they feel hopeful with him—that he would be able to stabilize things and bring peace?
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Pantzer: Well, yes, they—a lot of them were— There was a lot of pro and a lot of con.
Tellez: Do you remember any of your other relatives that were older, besides—like your grandfather, or others his age? Did they ever talk to you about what it was like when they were young? Did they ever tell you stories about when they were young, what things were like?
Pantzer: Oh, no, no. As I said, children and women were not exactly kept informed too well. Grown-up talk was grown-up talk.
Tellez: Oh, okay. And it was reserved for male grown-ups?
Pantzer: Yes, yes.
Tellez: Okay. That’s very interesting. Okay, now when you were still in Berlin— How old were you when you came to the United States?
Pantzer: I was seventeen.
Tellez: Now, while you were still there [in Berlin] could you describe for me what your self-identity was? How did you see yourself? I’ve been told a lot of German citizens had a very strong sense of German nationality. Did you see yourself that way?
Pantzer: When I came over?
Tellez: While you were still in Germany. Did you have a strong sense of German identity?
Pantzer: I was never a German citizen.
Tellez: Okay. So you didn’t relate to the country at all? Even though you had grown up there you didn’t see yourself as—
Pantzer: I was neutral.
Tellez: Neutral. Okay. That’s a good answer. That’s what I was trying to understand. Thank you. Okay, now, what exactly—if you can remember—what made you decide to leave Germany?
Pantzer: Well, first of reasons, the economy, and my brothers were all here [in the United States], and there was no future in Germany, so to speak.
Tellez: You had a sister also, correct?
Pantzer: Yes.
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Tellez: Was she here [in the United States] also, or did she—
Pantzer: No, she stayed there. She got married over there. But she came after. Yeah, she came after World War II. She came back here.
Tellez: Okay. And how about your parents?
Pantzer: Well, my mother came shortly after I came. My father was gone. But my mother came shortly after I came. After she settled things over there. And then we were all together here.
Tellez: Okay, and when you were— You explained to me why you wanted to leave Germany—because of the economy, and there was no future, and your brothers had moved here—[but] was there something in America that pulled you this way?
Pantzer: Well, I had my brothers here, and they said, “You learn a trade over here, and you live an entirely different life here than over there.” So, if you ate potatoes all day long, and somebody finally offers you roast beef— That’s what I did. How’s that, Pam?
Pam James: Sounds good to me.
[laughter]
Tellez: Okay. Before you left Berlin, you probably had a picture in your mind of what America was going to be like.
Pantzer: Oh, I knew what America was like. I read a lot.
Tellez: So, when you came to America, then, did it pretty much—
Pantzer: I was right at home.
Tellez: Okay. So it was just like you imagined, and you felt—
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Okay. And you say that with a smile, so I’m assuming you had a pleasant experience.
Pantzer: Those were happy, happy days!
END SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE
During this interval, Mr. Pantzer briefly discusses his journey on the ship from Berlin to New York; and discusses his mother once insulting two hung-over German soldiers who MS 315. Veterans History Project Pantzer 1 -
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sat in her living room. He reiterates the latter on side two of tape one, and the former on side .
________...(8 minutes)
BEGIN SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE
Tellez: Okay, go ahead. I’m sorry.
Pantzer: Well those two fellows [German Soldiers], they must have done the night. And they were sitting there in the salon. And the maid came and said to my mother, “The (?lupzumla?)”—that’s the fellows collecting old clothes—“is here.” And [my mother] said, “tell em to come in. there’s two sitting over there. [referring to the soldiers seated in the salon] Take them along.”
[laughter]
Pantzer: That didn’t do too well with the fellows in the fancy uniforms, but she thought that was real hittin on the head, because they were two bums. Yeah, she says, “take them along.”
[laughter]
Tellez: And did they say anything?
Pantzer: Oh, no, no, no! After that I disappeared [to] some other room. I don’t know what took place. But, yeah. I remember a Colonel [inaudible] opened a cigarette case and tried to offer my mother a cigarette, you see. And the old man [Mr. Pantzer’s father] said, “how can you offer my wife such an expensive cigarette?” And she took the cigarette, [and] she says, “Here! You smoke it!” She was very insulted. And he said, “How can you offer my wife such an expensive cigarette?”
Pam James: That was a mean thing to say.
Pantzer: She took that cigarette and says, “Here! You smoke it!”
[laughter]
Pantzer: I remember those things. Yeah.
[laughter]
Pam James: Uncle Gus, what did you get for Christmas when you were little?
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Pantzer: Well, different things. They usually made things themselves. We got good Christmas presents.
Pam James: Like, would your mother sew you clothes, or what?
Pantzer: Well, there were toys, and it was customary over there— You never saw the Christmas tree before Christmas Eve. That was in one of the rooms. Okay? And the Christmas tree had light candles. Beautiful! And every child had a place under the tree with the presents, and what you called “a plate with goody goodies” on them—apple, and orange, and candies—you know, a dish. We always counted ours [to] make sure that our mother didn’t half-serve our plate, you know. And Christmas was always nice, you know.
Pam James: Did you have to perform for the adults?
Pantzer: A what?
Pam James: Did the children have to perform for the adults?
Pantzer: Oh, yes. We had to recite till Santa Clause came. And we had [to] make our vows and we had [to] recite poetry. Sure. Yep, yep.
Tellez: Okay. Mr. Pantzer, could you tell me—if you had to think back and remember your fondest childhood memory, what would that be?
Pantzer: My what?
Tellez: Your most fond childhood memory—the one that you’re the happiest about—
Pantzer: When I put my foot on the United States’ property.
Tellez: I see. Okay, now, you discussed before about coming over on the boat, and the girls and the food, and I’m assuming that you had not had an abundance of food up to that point.
Pantzer: No.
Tellez: Okay, so, it was rough the entire time in Berlin, until you got on the boat [which was] the S.S. Berlin.
Pantzer: At the time they had thirty-six different parties over there [in Germany]—political parties—and they were all fighting. And I mean physically fighting.
[An audio clock announces the time and Mr. Pantzer repeats it.]
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Pantzer: It’s four o’clock. Yeah. They had that many parties there. So there was a lot of unrest. Yeah. So when I got off the boat—my brothers were at the pier—I says, “hallelujah!”
[laughter]
Tellez: So your brothers were there.
Pantzer: Oh, yes! Sure. We had our own apartment right away. Everything was taken care of.
Tellez: And where that apartment was—that first apartment you lived in when you got to the United States—what was the community like there?
Pantzer: Well, it was Uptown New York. It was a mixed community. Yeah. There were a lot of Jewish people living there, I remember. We used to have a lot of fun together.
Tellez: What would y’all do?
Pantzer: Well, they had a holiday, Yom Kippur. The women would stay in bed, and the men would come upstairs and play pinochle with us. And my mother would make ham and eggs for breakfast. And then afterwards, we all went together downstairs and enjoyed the evening meals. And we all go along well.
Pam James: But they didn’t eat the ham.
Pantzer: The what?
Pam James: They didn’t eat the ham if it was Yom Kippur.
[Mr. Pantzer grins knowingly and raises his eyebrows.]
Pantzer: They ate the ham. [Pantzer waves his hand as though brushing something aside.]
Pam James: They did?
[laughter]
Tellez: I like that little wave of the hand!
Pantzer: The ate the ham—don’t you worry! [chuckle]
[laughter]
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Tellez: Mr. Pantzer, you said earlier that your mother came shortly after you—to the United States—and you said that your father was gone. And you don’t have to answer this if you don’t want, but would you mind telling us where your father went?
Pantzer: I don’t know.
Tellez: He just left?
[Mr. Pantzer nods.]
Tellez: Okay, and so, then, your mother stayed there [in Berlin], I guess by herself for a short time.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: And how did you feel about that? Did you worry about her?
Pantzer: No. No feeling.
Tellez: Okay. Now, I asked you abut your fondest childhood memory, and now I would like to ask you about what your worst childhood memory was.
Pantzer: My what?
Tellez: Your worst childhood memory—the worst thing that you remember when you were growing up—
Pantzer: Gee, I can’t’ really remember that.
Tellez: No? You don’t remember—
Pantzer: I was not in the habit—and I’m still not in the habit—of remembering bad things. Bad things you erase form your mind. Otherwise, you have roots growing in your head. You don’t want that. You only have pleasant thoughts.
Tellez: Is this something your mother taught you?
Pantzer: We were all happy.
Tellez: Okay. And this is a philosophy you learned from your mother?
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: Your mother sounds like she was a beautiful woman.
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Pantzer: She sure was! Never, never let bad things take over! You erase them from your mind, and think about good things, and you have a better life.
Tellez: I’ll remember that, Mr. Pantzer. Thank you. That’s good advice. It’s healthy. Okay, so before we close for today—because next time we’re going to start with your experiences in America—
Pantzer: We gonna meet again with this?
Tellez: If that’s okay with you, because we would like to go further throughout your life and— You know, because there’re things you can tell us about your life that other people can’t tell us about.
Pantzer: Well, what’s unknown?
Pam James: But the depression, and Tante [Aunt] Katie.
Pantzer: The what?
Pam James: How you met Aunt Katie, and the depression.
Tellez: Yeah. See, we want to find out how you met your wife, and about your kids. And I’ll explain to you why that is, Mr. Pantzer. When people write history, they usually only write about the most powerful, important people, or from the perspective, you know, or the richest people. We very seldom hear the stories of the ordinary people—the working class, or the small business owners—and so we want to know what life was like for those people. And the only way we can find that out is by talking to people like you and hearing your stories. And so now a days a lot of historians like myself are doing these oral interviews with people and collecting them, so that we can find out about history form the everyday people.
Pantzer: Sure. Sure. [Mr. Pantzer nods his head approvingly.]
Tellez: And what we do with this is we keep it in archives. And they [the recordings] will be there for hundreds of years. So five, six hundred years from now students will read about your story, or hear about it in a lecture from a professor, and other people’s stories, and then they’ll know what it was really like for an immigrant who came in on a boat to New York and started a restaurant. Do you understand what I’m saying? Do you see what I mean?
Pantzer: Yeah.
Tellez: That’s why your story is so important.
Pantzer: Okay.
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Tellez: And so it will be used by students and professors. So, before we close today—keeping that in mind—thinking of future generations who will study your story—what would you most like for those students to now about your experiences growing up in Germany, and your experiences as a new citizen of the United States?
Pantzer: Now say that again.
Tellez: Okay. What would you most like future students to know about what life was like growing up in Germany during your time there, and about being a new citizen in the United States?
Pantzer: Well, as I said, the standard of living was , as I said, from hundred to twenty. That’s basically saying everything. It affects not only the stomach, but the mind, and the behavior. So you have a different population over there than you have here. I don’t know how it is now. Things have changed a lot over there. But in my days, they’re all a grim. And when I came here, people, they were happy.
Tellez: Okay, and so that’s what you would most like for people to know.
Pantzer: Yeah. The first thing my brother did, he took me to an ice-cream parlor and he bought me a banana split, which was— I never saw anything like that before. And it was twenty-five cents. And I thought that was terrific. And it was terrific because they had the sugar and the salt and pepper, the napkins, everything on the table, all right? You remember those little ice-cream parlors we used to have?
Tellez: Yes, sir.
Pantzer: And sugar, and salt and pepper, and napkins, everything on the table. You don’t have that on the other side [in Germany] in my days. There was nothing on the table because there was nothing to begin with. And if there was, people might take it. So there’s one difference right there, basically. That sums it up pretty much, you know.
Tellez: Yeah, that does. That gives a very vivid picture of the difference.
Pantzer: Yeah, yeah.
Tellez: That’s a good example.
Pantzer: Yeah. Little things tell a lot of basic things. Little things put together show you a lot of big basic things. If you know where to look for them.
END SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE
After the recording ends, Tellez thanks Mr. Pantzer for his time. Mr. Pantzer then mentions having attended a speech by Adolph Hitler prior to leaving Berlin. He discusses this in more detail on tape two.