Tutorial A Guide to Seraphon Battalions - GHB2017

With the GHB2017, the new Allegiance abilities, the points costs variations and the new formations we have at disposal, I think this is the perfect moment to take a look at one of the most useful tool to field an army.

This thread wants to offer some analysis on ALL our battalions, with considerations about the cost in points (the minimum required to field each one and the recommended cost to make it shine), the goodness of the battalion, the additional units to make it work at best, and some basic tactic.

I will use this post also to make a sort of summary of all battalions, while we'll develope them, to have a quick reference.

PREMISE: WHAT BATTALIONS DO​

Battalions are not made to be equal.
Some battalions are designed to be the main bulk of an army, and the rest of your list will just be of support.
Some battlions are so full-fledged that they are the army, and can stand their own.
Some battalions are explicitly designed to cover just a support role, and they are basically "elite corps", that can hardly win by themselves.

With that in mind, I will evaluate battalions / starhost, not only in terms of sheer power, but also in terms of utilities and versatility.

LIST OF BATTALIONS (with links to the specific analysis)​

Sunclaw Starhost
Minimum size cost: 550 pts (recommended: no less than 810).
Power level: mid-low.
Main bulk of your army, requires support to perform.

Eternal Starhost.
Minimum size cost: 570 pts (recommended: no less than 770).
Power level: mid-high, occasionally low
Main bulk of your army or elite that gives the final blow. Can stand on its own, but against specific kind of threats requires heavy support to perform.

Thunderquake Starhost.
Size cost: around 1000-1100 pts.
Power level: mid-high
Bulk of the army; great versatility in units choice, that cover many roles and are buffed by very useful abilities. Always useful and can sustain the main effort by itself.

Starbeast constellation.
Cost: around 5000 pts.
Full-fledged army, the Constellation is basically an excuse to let you use at the same time all the five Starhosts of the Battletome. Nice idea, but poorly supported.

Bloodclaw Starhost
Cost: variable. Usually around 2000-2500 pts for a full army that includes support units.
It's the Definitive Starhost for Sauri. It's heavily focused on melee and it's good at it... but suffers the lack of magic and shooting, so you need to support it with additional units.

Heavenswatch Starhost
Cost: variable. With 2000 pts you will have an army that will be formed almost in its entirety by the starhost.
It's the Definitive Starhost for Skinks and it's a stand-alone army, that doesn't require external support, as you can easily cover all roles.

Dracothion's Tail
Cost: variable. not recommended under 2000 pts.
Your whole army will be included in the battalion, as long as you use Seraphon only, letting you place the army at once and seize the first turn.
It's focused on melee and comes with several limitations, but gives you vast battlefield control, alpha strikes and a sufficient flexibility.

Saurus stats:
Save 5+, ignore rend up to -1
Attack with celestite weapon and with jaws/shield. A unit of 20+ gains a +1 to hit, and a unit of 30+ gains an additional attack with celestite weap.

The Starhost gives an additional attack with jaws/shield, and a rend -1 to their celestite weapons.

To make Sauri work, you need a horde: their strenght is in numbers, with less than 30 models, their efficacy will be halved, this is an objective fact. Given that 30 models cost 300 pts and 40 are 360, obviously you MUST have a unit of 40.

Unless you're playing large armies, you can afford to use the other 2 saurus units at the minimum size (10), employing them to sit upon objectives or as disposable screen.

Weapons choice
Maces are nice: 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound (for an horde, it means 3+/3+)… however, lances gives you a greater reach, and given how hordes fight, you will need the attacks of the rear models: the 4+ to wound is not good as 3+, but it’s better to have a 3+/4+ and to attack with more models. So, lances is better for hordes.

Sunblood
The guy is a killer beast. He's cheap, hard to kill, delivers good damage and got an excellent command ability to buff a horde, letting your saurus re-roll all failed to hit.
It could be your general, but there are other possible choices.

HOW TO MAKE IT WORK

Hordes are nice, but their maneuverability is poor, and sauri are slow.
You don't want to be charged and you don't want to be shot.
You need to enter melee and bring damage.
With the new battle traits of the Seraphon Allegiance, i think it's suicidal to don't bring a Slann on the table, to unbind on all the battlefield and to teleport units.

So yeah, a Slann to mystic shield your horde and teleport it.

Obviously, you want to be reasonably sure that your horde will be able to teleport and strike the enemy. This can be done in a number of ways. Examples:

Slann as general with Vast intellect and Hunter's constellation. Tnx to Curse of Fate, you'll have a +2 to charge, needing only a 7. points cost: +260
Slann with Hunter's constellation, Saurus Olblood afoot as general. Move Sauri by 3", taking them at 6" from the enemy, with +1 to charge you only need to roll a 5. points cost: +380

Once you're reasonably sure you are going to charge, you can think on how to improve the combat prowess of your sauri.
You need to let them reroll, and also this can be done in a number of ways:

If you're using a Slann, you could use the Drake constellation, re-rolling 1s to hit.
You are losing the +1 to charge, but Your sauri are going to hit at 3+, if you re-roll 1s, you will fail only on 2.
As an alternative, you can use an Astrolith bearer, that will plant the standard, giving you the same effect of the Oldblood's command ability, without losing the bonus to charge of the constellation and gaining huge bonus for the Slann.
You can have many combinations. For example, to buff both the resilience of the Sauri and their attacks, you can give tham mystic shield with a Slann and Starlight with a skink starpriest (Save 4+, -1 to hit them), and tnx to the Serpent Staff you will increase also their output damage with jaws, threatening 2 wounds for each 5+.

If you don't plan to use a Slann but you want to play "classic style", then go for Oldblood as general.
It's command ability is perfect, so that's it.

EVALUATION:

Power level: medium-low.
It doesn't cost too much points, but it's a one trick pony, and this hurts.

Low points game (750-1000)
At 1000 pts you cannot have a Slann, and the starhost alone cannot stand its own in a competitive enviroment (power level low), while can be more good in a friendly meta (power level medium)

Mid points game (1250-2000)
At more than 1000 pts, you can insert heroes and supports that will greatly improve it's efficacy.... however, also the opponents will have the chance to use nasty combos, so (again) the range goes from medium to low, depending on meta.
Plus, it's a starhost that relies on close combat and requires buffs for melee, leaving you in a poor state for shooting.
At 2000 pts, you can fully buff the Starhost and save around 600-700 pts for shooting and units with different abilities, thus gaining more versatility, for a medium power level.

High points game (2250-2750)
the starhost will requires around one third of your army, the rest will be something else, probably more threatening.
This means that the saurus won't be a primary target, and you can use them with a certain freedom, going for some target. Basically, the sunclaw will be no more the backbone of your army, but will be a "support melee group", for a medium power level.

Guards stats:
Save 4+, 3+ near a hero, ignore rend up to -1
2 attack with celestite weapon (3 if near a Warden) w rend -1 and 1 with jaws/shield.

The Starhost gives:
- an additional +1 to saves if near the Warden (save 2+ without magic!),
- celestite weapons does d3 dam, but only in their turn and if they don't move / charge.
They are basically a strong defensive formation.

Guards don't gain bonuses when they are a horde (and they don't even get a discount to use one!), however if you want these guys to be the ultimate killer of what you fight with, you want a unit with some models, so your main Group should be of no less than 15 guards, 20 if you can afford it.

Unless you're playing large armies with many points, the other 2 guards units can be kept at the minimum size (5).
However, there's not a fixed perfect scheme: a unit of 5 to guard an objective, 2 units of x10 or 2x15 (or 1x10 and 1x15) to go around and fight.

Guards have just 2 weak points: low move and are HIGHLY vulnerable to mortal wounds.

Eternity Warden
The guy is a standard melee fighter, but gives huge boosts to guards, so its cost is justified by that. He lacks a command ability, but this is good for you, because this means you can use another general for further buffs.
It can be your general, but only at very low points game, and maybe not even then.

HOW TO MAKE IT WORK

Guards are slow and their battalion let them shine when they are stationary. Basically, they really don't have the utilities to be a solid offensive unit, even if they can be used that way.
The d3 damage seems huge, and it is but only to a certain point. It only activates when you don't move in the movement / charge phase (pile in doesn't count), but only in your turn. This means that:
the turn guards are charged, you don't have it.
the turn you charge, you don't have it.
So, you can have the bonus only in prolonged combats.
But each guard (if the unit is near a Warden) does 3 attacks at 3+/3+, so even only 10 guards do 31 attacks, forcing an average of 13-14 saves at -1 rend.
And if you move two guards unit to cover each other, both of them will have the warden's bonuses.

Given that you are not going to use the warden as general, you have many ways to improve the combat prowess of your Guards.
Slann with Drake constellation: reroll 1s to hit
Astrolith bearer: reroll all failed to hit
Sunblood as General: reroll all failed to hit
Scarvet on Carno as general: additional attacks on 6+

now, the general.

With the new battle traits of the Seraphon Allegiance, a Slann can unbind on all the battlefield and can teleport units, so it's always recommended.

If you use the Slann as general, I'd suggest the trait Great Rememberer, to teleport TWO units, because if you teleport the guards without the Warden it's kinda pointless.
so yeah, pick your block of 15-20 guards AND their warden, into the enemy lines. With Drake constellation, reroll 1s to hit: this is probably the best way to give mobility and more effectiveness to the formation.

Sunblood as General: the cheapest way to have your fighting horde with rerollable to hit.

Scarvet on carno as general: excellent combat general, the enemy will face different threats, and he will give further attacks to your guards on 6+. Use in combo with an astrolith bearer for maximum carnage.

Other generals may be possible.

EVALUATION:

Power level: from low to high.
As many melee formations, they do just close combat and the low move don't let them threaten large portions of the battlefield, which is kinda limiting.

They can be exceptional under the right circumstances (defensive fight, enemy with none or little ways to deal mortal wounds). This will happen rarely, but at that point their power is top tier.

But Aos is more and more requiring a high mobility: we have scenarios with movable objectives, and we face armies with units that teleport, come from nowhere or dig through earth (SCE, nighthaunt, dwarves, fyreslayers and so on), not counting flying enemies.
Against this kind of army, unless you are teleporting too with the Slann, it will be a hard fight (power level: mid to low)
Sadly, also mortal wounds spam is becoming common, and highly powered shooting (tzeentch, SCE, Beastclaw... the list is long). In a competitive enviroment, your costly Guards will melt as snow in the summer sun (power level: low).

Basically, it's a really situational battalion.

Low points game (750-1000)
At high points games, you can be 100% sure that the enemy will have one or more good countermeasures to your guards, so IMO this battalion works best in low points games.
Examples:
750 pts (the lowest you can play by rules)
Minimum Starhost (Warden, 3 x 5 Guards), Starpriest as general (master of star rituals), 2 salamanders
you will have guards with save 2+, imposing -1 to hit them, and some support shooting. with 50% chance to have them re-roll saves, run and charges
1000 pts
Starhost (warden, 2 x 5 guards, 1 x 10 guards), starpriest, ScarVet on Carno as general

Mid points game (1250-2000)
almost half of your army is the Starhost, and the enemy will almost surely have something to deal with your buffed guards.
So, the other half of your list need to have abilities that will let you deal with the "problems" that will threaten the backbone of your army (long range shooting, mortal wounds dealer, and so on)
Be them Kroak on Balewind, shadowstrike starhost, chama skinks, even things as Bastiladon that makes for a primary target.
With those units, ES may perform at mid-high level, otherwise (if you fail to counter the enemy), you will be dissatisfied.

High points game (2250-2750)
The same reasoning made for the mid points games apply also here. There will be higher chances for the enemy to have a large number of units that can deal with the weaknesses of Eternal Starhost, and probably you won't be able to strike them all.
But if it's properly supported, Eternal Starhost is a strong battalion

AoS is often a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors, and this is truer for Eternal Starhost.
Guards rocks, and they can win the game by themselves, or the enemy will have something that in a couple of turns can wipe away half of the army.
There are also factors that are hard to consider. If your opponent isn't aware of the potential power of the Guards, chances are that it will underestimate them, even if he got ways to deal with them.
When you plan your list, always remember the 3 Achille's heels of Eternal Starhost:
- they are not fast
- they suffer greatly mortal wounds
- they rely on the Warden, which is a model that got 7 wounds and save 4+. Once the enemy realizes it, it's not that hard to kill it (khurnoth hunters, knight venator and so on), and this means you lose almost 270 investment points.
So, plan to reduce the risks: invest points to have high mobility units, things that deal with the enemy's mortal wounds dealers, protect the warden with spells as Mystic Shield or Starlight.

Do you really need the battalion?
If you believe that the starhost is costly and too much dependable on circumstances, you can try to do without it.
you are going to lose the d3 damage, but (as said) it will happen only in the 2nd combat round, and the +1 to save can be easily obtained by a mystic shield, so, if we pick the example of a 1000 pts army, a list could be:
Warden, 1 x 15 guards, 1 x 10 skinks, Slann, Stegadon: more magic, more shooting, more move.
So, it's up to personal preferences.

I've always read the d3 damage to mean if you haven't moved in that battle round you get it, so if your opponent goes first in the 2nd battle round as i haven't moved I get it....

In my experience you need to make sure you have some good shooting options to take out as much mortal wound threat as possible.

I also find that the wardrums really help move especially if you're on for a double turn.

With the horde meta atm they can be great anti horde units as most horde units won't have high rend so if you buff correctly they will bounce off you they you dice them up, keeping the units close to each other tends to mean with the standards you'll add 2-3 to the battleshock roll too

With the horde meta atm they can be great anti horde units as most horde units won't have high rend so if you buff correctly they will bounce off you they you dice them up, keeping the units close to each other tends to mean with the standards you'll add 2-3 to the battleshock roll too

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True, but as said, it's situational. almost game breaking if you are going to face a horde, but if you meet something equally common (tzaangor skyfires with shaman; Thundertusks; Clan Skrire and similar), you are just doomed.
That's way the power range of Eternal Starhost goes from "high" to "low". It lacks versatility.

The sunclaw host can function as a fairly effective damage sponge because they are a high threat that needs to be dealt with. Saurus warriors are nothing amazing, but a block of 40 is a significant threat, especially with these bonusses. This means that ignoring them is not an option, so they will draw fire, attacks that will not be going towards say your carnosaur. On top of that, with a 40-man unit, they have quite a lot of wounds to chew through. and the extra bite attack means that simply pushing them below 30 won't completly hamstring them like what happens with a "normal" saurus warriors unit. This gets even better if you can field multiple large blocks. It forces your opponent to choose between dealing with the warriors or your "real" threats.

As for the eternal starhost. They'l work in any sized game. In small games they're basicly unbeatable if your opponent doesn't have excessive amounts of reliable mortal wounds. And in larger games they can function well as the backbone of your army provided you use your supporting troops to deal with mortal wounds.

For example, they can be excellent at dealing with a stonehorn when used correctly:

Stop it from charging into the guards for example, use a skink screening force to bait the charge

Get the stonehorn in combat with your guards, preferably in such a way that it can't retreat

Stand and fight, you'l trade extremely favourably. If nothing else the stonehorn is now stuck for 2-3 turns even if it's only facing a single unit.

Provided you can shield them from (reliable) mortal wounds like this they can be used to great effect. They are amazing at dealing with horde units, close combat heroes and elite/monstrous units that don't have (many reliable) mortal wounds.

To be honest, a bigger issue is how short games are in AoS. The slow defensive focused tactics the guards are best at simply won't win many matches as it takes half the game just to get them in position, at which point faster troops have already stolen the objective three times over... On that note, who came up with the turnlimit of 6, it seems so low...

Problem is that in order to field multiple blocks of saurus warriors and the heroes that can support that, then there arent many points left for "real threats"

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yup the pointcost is a bit steep. I wouldn't use the approach below 1500 points, and it probably only really starts becoming good at 2000 as a tactic. It makes me wish that instead of buying the individual units and the battelion a battelion would simply give you a fixed set of stuff at a slightly cheaper prize than buying it seperatly. Especially for stuff like horde units. You virtually never want to field warriors below max size, which makes this battelion excesivly expensive for what it does if you take it at proper size. Whereas if you take it at minimum size it's cheap (about ~500 points) but 3x 10 saurus warriors aren't going to do much, even with the bonus of the battelion...

@Killer Angel In regard to the Eternal Starhost part of this tutorial it is worth mentioning that a number of players on the fb group report doing very well with this battalion in 2k lists, usually 2x units of 5 guard and 1x unit of 20. They use Kroak on balewind with an astrolith as a sniper to eliminate mortal wound threats against the guard. I'm yet to try one of these lists myself but can see merit in that approach.

Kroak + balewind wouldn't be the only option to pull this off with. Take a shadowstrike host with chamelon skinks and a priest with priestly trappings. The skink priest turns our 2+ save into a re-rollable 2+ save and the terradon/ripperdactyls + chameleons should be able to snipe any mortal wound threat. Should even be slightly cheaper than kroak on a balewind.

@Killer Angel In regard to the Eternal Starhost part of this tutorial it is worth mentioning that a number of players on the fb group report doing very well with this battalion in 2k lists, usually 2x units of 5 guard and 1x unit of 20. They use Kroak on balewind with an astrolith as a sniper to eliminate mortal wound threats against the guard. I'm yet to try one of these lists myself but can see merit in that approach.

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Yeah that guy, he's an asshole. Dunno if he's fought another Seraphon player yet but a Shadowstrike starhost would kill his gimmick pretty reliably.

It's a very specific add-on to the battalion, but I will mention it when i will expand the analysis to big armies
But at that point is more "Kroak + balewind cheese ", the starhost is secondary.

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His whole thing is moving the Guard up to the middle of the board and leaving them there with a 2+ rerollable while Kroak sits on a baelwind sniping things. He 2 drops so he reliably gets first turn, it all hinges on Kroak being able to summon a baelwind and not get killed in the first turn.

@skipperyoss yeah he does come across very sure of the army. I really hope that I can make decent competitive lists using the units I actually chose Seraphon for, Carnosaurs/ bastiladons ect that makes it fun for me.

Knights stats:
Save 5+, ignore rend up to -1, Move 7
Attack with celestite weapon and with jaws/shield, plus 2 bite attacks by ColdOnes. Celestite weapons may be Blades or Lances (which do a mortal wound on nat 6s to wound).

The Starhost gives +3 to run and charge if within 10" from the ScarVet (remember, you need to charge successfully) and an additional mortal wound on 6+ to wound of celestite weapons.

Knights' weapons got NO REND, so if you want them to act as can opener, you need those mortal wounds. More models, more chances.... however, to have 10 knights that charge successfully and are able to strike all together may be hard, and it will be a not so frequent event.
Usually, to have more than 5 models in a unit may be counterproductive, but if you want something that can face some big target, you can field one unit of 10 knights

Weapons choice
Blades hit better than lances: 3+ vs 4+ to hit, both 3+ to wound... however, lances give more mortal wounds on 6s, that are the rolls you want, so I'd say lances.

ScarVet on Cold One
Not a bad hero, very cheap for what he does. Its command ability let you reroll 1s to charge and hit, and an additional attack to Cold Ones' bites.

ScarVet on Carnosaur
nuff said. There's nothing wrong with it.

HOW TO MAKE IT WORK

Let me say one thing: our knights costs only 100 pts... they are very cheap, but you pay for what you got.
They are a poor unit: they are really slow for a cavalry (unless you march with the units that are not fighting), their save is not that great and will be shred to pieces after the charge, if you take them against strong targets (although they're definitly capable of fighting off some of the weaker melee troops). And most of all, their mortal damage output is totally unreliable.

The first and last thing you need to remember, always, is: they must charge, and they cannot stay in close combat for more than 1 round. They have no rend, and they don’t deal so many attacks to sustain a long combat.
They are basically a support unit: use them to hunt weak units or to weaken tough ones before your real attack. Don't expect them to win for you, because it won't happen.

That said, you can optimize their performance

Choose the General:
The command ability of the scarvet on cold one gives: additional attacks for cold one’ bites, reroll 1s on charges (to increase your chances), reroll 1’s on to hit (if the Slann is not using the StarDrake constellation).
The command ability of the scarvet on carnosaur, gives: 1 additional attack each time you roll a 6 to hit (rerolling 1’s, so another chance to increase the number of subsequent "to wound"). Plus, the abilities of the carnosaur himself.
They are both good, in different ways.

A Slann as general is also very good, but you will lose the command abilities of the ScarVet

Other heroes:
In order of importance:

1) a Slann is always wonderful: you will unbind on all the battlefield, you will teleport one unit / turn, you will have magic support.
you need all the help you can get: if you're using a ScarVet on Carno as general, pick the Great Drake constellation, to re-roll the 1’s on to hit.
If you pick the ScarVet on CO, use another constellation

2) If you play with a Scarvet as general, you will absolutely need a Skink Starpriest, for two solid reasons: summon Starlight (for further protection) and the Serpent Staff.
With the staff, you will threaten double damage on 6s to hit.
If the general is the ScarVet on CO, tnx to the command ability, each model is going to do 4 bite Attacks (1 for the Saurus and 3 for the CO). 5 models will do 20 bite Attacks, and the serpent staff is just great.
If the general is the ScarVet on Carno, the Staff will buff the Carno. It's a win-win.

3) Skink Starseer. He’ll be useful in 2 different ways: with Cosmic Herald, he can reroll dices, so this means it will be harder to fail charges (thus making less useful the scar-vet on cold one). Then, with Curse of Fate on your knights, they will have a +1 on a dice for each phase… this not only means another +1 on charges’ distance, but you can have a +1 on a dice during the combat phase.
This may not seem great, but you only need to pick a 5 to wound, and make it a 6: that single +1 means 2 mortal wounds. I’d say the spell repays itself pretty nicely.

If you play with the Slann as general, then you won't need the Starseer (you can have Curse of Fate), and probably you will need the Starpriest only if you are fielding the Carnosaur (you will have Starlight and the CO will lose one bite attack).

EVALUATION:

Power level: medium-low.
It can be really cheap, but to make knights useful you need to invest a lot on them, using heroes to support an otherwise weak unit.
At the risk of repeat myself, they are a support unit, usable to hunt chaffs or to weaken harder targets, before your real attack. By themselves, they aren't strong, and what they can do is anyway limited. They require to be used wisely, exploiting the march move with the units that you are not employing in charges.

Low points game (750-1000)
in its cheapest form, the battalion costs 510 pts.
Add a Slann and a Starpriest and you will have an investment of 850. not good.
Playing at 1000, the only viable list I see is to use a Slann, a Starpriest and the formation with a ScarVet on Carno, buffed with defensive buffs

Mid points game (1250-2000)
Now we are reasoning.
The Starhost is cheap and you will have points to build an army and use the Starhost in its proper role-support. This may be slightly more difficult at 1250, but works fine for higher levels.
The heroes that buff the knights will work also for the rest of your army, and a ScarVet as general will probably buff also many of the things you will bring on the battlefield.

High points game (2250-2750)
think to them as a utility starhost, just an added tool to your army, possibly supporting another battalion.

one addition to the firelance, Knights aren't entirely awefull in prolonged fights. With 2 wounds they don't die as quickly as you'd expect (and thus don't lose power as quickly compared to other stuff) and the bites of the mounts are reasonably realiable. They're not going to beat anything vaguely elite, but they're not completly screwed either in most cases, and they;re definitly capable of fighting off some of the weaker melee troops.