Bower or LFed....

Board participants typically fall into one of these two camps:

Old timers love Bower ball. He did well when he was here but name one SEC team he beat with a winning record........go ahead I will wait....... Bower was 2-8-1 in year 3 with an experienced D(Bobby Hamilton, Carter, Nix) and O with a third year qb and talent left over from Curleys days like Montgomery. He lost to one of the worst Tulane teams in history........at home. I was at USM for Bower years 2-4 and I know first hand how pathetic attendance was.....much worse than today. My first game was at home against Memphis in 92, you know, the Black and Blue game against a traditional opponent we miss so badly? Lomoro kicked the winner and we prevailed 16-13........maybe 14K attendance......maybe. Outside of Pitt in 93 because of ESPN, we have more in the stands today than we did in Bower Y2/Y3 by far.

Fedora......How everyone, I mean everyone forgets how they wanted him and Anderson gone after the bed wetting at USC in Y3. What SEC or Power 5 team with a winning record did Fed beat in his first three seasons? Go ahead, I'll wait.......Fed had an experienced team that finally came together and won eight games in Y3 but lost to one of the worst UAB teams in history in year 3 ......at home......not to mention how he wet the bed in Y4 against UAB. Hop won 8 games in Y2 with far less talent and fan support. But, but....... the 8 wins Fed had were against much better teams......guess what? 8 wins for LFed got you a bowl game against Loserville in a baseball dome. 8 wins for Hop got you Indy Bowl against FSU. I guess that competition doesn't really matter now, does it......

So now you have Hop. First game out of the gate with a new staff puts together a great second half and beats a winning record SEC opponent by 9......on the road. In Y2 he wins 8 and we have one of our best bowl invites since the last Liberty. He did it with the absolutely no fan support. We did it with essentially one star player. Now, in Y3, you can see the talent that defines Hop AND DAWSON as great recruiters. Jack is far ahead of Mullens and Davis with his stats after 5 games. We probably have the youngest starting team in our history on the field and you can see Quez, Jaylond, Moseley, etc... not letting inexperience define their potential.

The common answer......we shouldn't be losing to North Texas. We shouldn't be losing to ULM. Sure, but this isn't the first time we have lost to programs we have no business losing to under better coaches, right? Curley had no business losing to SW La at home after beating #6 FSU on the road......Bower had no business losing to Northern Illinois in 92. Fedora had no business losing to UTEP at home or to Middle Tenn St. But, but, Charlotte at home.....or ODU.....Ok, then Monken had no business losing to Texas St or FIU or even UTSA in Y2.....

You have the lowest budget in CUSA and the FBS. You don't show up because you remember the days of better opponents at The Rock and its beneath your time and money to go watch this team. You deserve the AAC and not this conference. I guess by that logic I shouldnt have sat in the stands for home games against Ark St, Alcorn St, Southern, Tulsa, Samford, Utah St, etc......

If you are honest look at our history and see that nothing has changed with our program. We are still poor and we still believe we are worthy of so much better......but this is who we are. Hop is the guy right now just like Bower was the guy in Y3 and Fed was the guy in Y3. You wanted each of those guys gone just like you want Hop gone. He deserves our support with this team. Hell this young and talented team deserve it regardless of who they line up against. UNT is the most talented team we will face this season. They are having a special season for the books in Denton. We were in that game with essentially a freshman squad thru 3 quarters. We gave away 10 points on our first two drives deep into UNT territory in the third. Young teams need to learn to finish. Thats what you should expect from this team just like Monkens teams in Y2.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. That should be our motto......

Re: Bower or LFed....

Bower planned to retire a couple of years after his firing. I don't speculate on anything. Maybe oui would have been better off and maybe oui would not. G was still at the helm and it seems I had heard he still has some input into the program.

Your point is well taken however. USM does not have the money for any coach. I have had a few conversations about this. At coaches conventions, other coaches would shake their heads over our offers for assistants.

My only issue with all of this was being left out or our administration ignored moving to the AAC. I hear that TV kept us out but I am not so sure oui did not tell them to take a hike either.

My last comment on the SEC or P5 programs that Bower defeated. What were they ranked when his team defeated them? I am not looking it up but to me that is worth something.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Bower planned to retire a couple of years after his firing. I don't speculate on anything. Maybe oui would have been better off and maybe oui would not. G was still at the helm and it seems I had heard he still has some input into the program.

Your point is well taken however. USM does not have the money for any coach. I have had a few conversations about this. At coaches conventions, other coaches would shake their heads over our offers for assistants.

My only issue with all of this was being left out or our administration ignored moving to the AAC. I hear that TV kept us out but I am not so sure oui did not tell them to take a hike either.

My last comment on the SEC or P5 programs that Bower defeated. What were they ranked when his team defeated them? I am not looking it up but to me that is worth something.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Bower planned to retire a couple of years after his firing. I don't speculate on anything. Maybe oui would have been better off and maybe oui would not. G was still at the helm and it seems I had heard he still has some input into the program.

Your point is well taken however. USM does not have the money for any coach. I have had a few conversations about this. At coaches conventions, other coaches would shake their heads over our offers for assistants.

My only issue with all of this was being left out or our administration ignored moving to the AAC. I hear that TV kept us out but I am not so sure oui did not tell them to take a hike either.

My last comment on the SEC or P5 programs that Bower defeated. What were they ranked when his team defeated them? I am not looking it up but to me that is worth something.

Ace...

For the record I was/am a fan of Bower and LFed. Jeff had to do more with less but it also took him 6 seasons before he got it going......six. That would not fly today because he would have been gone after 6-5 in 94. LFed had more cash and it took him 3 full years to get any momentum but I will always wonder how he would have done in year 5.....since he is 5-16 at UNC going back to the end of the 2016 season currently I wonder if he would have dropped off significantly in Y5. Ace, not sure what those opponents were ranked that Bower beat but I’m going to guess Bama was the only one probably around 20 when we shut them out. They would only win 3 games that season we beat them.

Would I prefer the AAC today, sure. More cash would have helped us but I am not a believer that we would be as dominant as we were in CUSA by any stretch. Recruiting has changed and we can’t compete dollar for dollar with the cash a school like UCF has and their 50K enrollment. Just because we would have more money doesn’t mean we wouldn’t be ECU right now. Bottom of a conference and in the middle of a massive multi million dollar renovation to Dowdy Ficklin.....that has about as many fans as we do on any given Saturday. Heck, we could very well be like Tulsa right now.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Monken's not a choice? Do we just assume that most people like Monken best, and this is for the consolation prize?

Both Bower and Fedora are good head coaches in my opinion. I guess if you forced me to choose one to coach my all star team in the game of the century, I'd go with Fedora. I really, really liked the ambitious way he talked about USM. Nobody else ever talks like that.

Bower was a very good fit at USM for longer than USM seems to deserve, though. I don't completely buy the Son of Dixie stat, either. Hopson looks better than he should if that stat's your barometer.

In any case, USM football isn't defined by its good coaches but by its bad ones. A better question might be whether the steady slide into oblivion Hopson seems to promise is really better than the exquisite flameout that was "Pappy Buttermilk."

People have enough sense to run from a burning building. Maybe slow carbon monoxide poisoning is harder to escape.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Bower planned to retire a couple of years after his firing. I don't speculate on anything. Maybe oui would have been better off and maybe oui would not. G was still at the helm and it seems I had heard he still has some input into the program.

Your point is well taken however. USM does not have the money for any coach. I have had a few conversations about this. At coaches conventions, other coaches would shake their heads over our offers for assistants.

My only issue with all of this was being left out or our administration ignored moving to the AAC. I hear that TV kept us out but I am not so sure oui did not tell them to take a hike either.

My last comment on the SEC or P5 programs that Bower defeated. What were they ranked when his team defeated them? I am not looking it up but to me that is worth something.

Ace...

Bower was 0 for whatever v. P5 schools with a winning record.

SOD beat that into our heads for years. Very sobering.

Yes I know. I still say it's a BS record because typically USM played all the P5 early and the rankings at the time were what they are.

That's what is fun about stats. You can use them however you want to present your case.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Let me clarify why Son of Dixie used "the only stat that mattered". It's not so much when, why, where, or how any of it happened but that other people noticed it as well as our own fans. Sure we had folks showing up to games but we weren't selling the place out either and it's because Bower was not winning the so called big games. SoD noticed a very easy and simple to predict pattern among our fair-weather fans...if we win the early season game, the stadium is packed until we lose and then it starts dwindling down, especially when mediocrity is on display. Open at Bama and lose, the place will be less than half-full for the beatdown against SELA.

And its true whether we like it or not...we only beat the shitty $ec teams during his long "legendary" tenure. SoD didn't stop tracking "the only stat that matters" when JB left either. He tracked it until he succumbed to Golden Eagle apathy upon the debacles of Martha/RG/Fedora choosing Hawaii/EJ/no-balls-Bennett/Hammond short contract/etc.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Back to the question of the OP:I liked Bower well enough and then one day I realized he couldn't take us where I wanted us to go.

I loved the energy and enthusiasm of Fedora but on more than one occasion, I would force myself to listen to the call-in radio show just so I could get thru and ask him about all this "rah rah rah ATTACK" BS he was selling us with a non-attack D under his pal as DC. He said we would ATTACK in all three phases of the game! What a crock of shit. I'll give him credit, he made the change and we did ATTACK in all 3 phases from that point on...until he chose the vacation instead of allowing us regular people to drive to Dallas for an opportunity to beat down Penn State (a fucking game that would have MATTERED had we won)!! For that, Larry is a pussy and karma is kicking his ass now because of it!!

Monken...damn, what an asshole of a personality. And a slow & steady winner. Why he chose to get out of the game he was certain to master is something that will have an effect on USM for a while. I don't blame him for his decision because he was at a huge disadvantage at a G5 school with no money but another year or two of him and we would have piled up wins that MATTERED!

Hop & Co couldn't fuck up Nick beating Kentucky. I give Nick all the credit for that win and playing fairly well against Moo as well. Anything good that happened with Nick and giving any of the coaches any credit is about the same as saying Hallman was a good coach. All one has to do is look what happened when Nick went down. Hop & Co had nothing. He graduated and we still have nothing.

I guess I'll choose Monk from that group even tho the MF left at the worst possible moment thus making our lame ass AD think he needed to make a super fast hire for recruiting purposes.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Hop & Co couldn't fuck up Nick beating Kentucky. I give Nick all the credit for that win and playing fairly well against Moo as well. Anything good that happened with Nick and giving any of the coaches any credit is about the same as saying Hallman was a good coach. All one has to do is look what happened when Nick went down. Hop & Co had nothing. He graduated and we still have nothing.

I guess I'll choose Monk from that group even tho the MF left at the worst possible moment thus making our lame ass AD think he needed to make a super fast hire for recruiting purposes.

Mullens was the man against UK but to not give Dawson a significant amount of credit for that win is just letting your hatred for him blind your thinking. Dawson exploited the hell out of UK once they got past the first few series of matchups. He went against that defense as the O coordinator for UK in practice and knew the coverage packages and skills of that defense and he had Nick expose it.

Monken was positioned to be the best coach in our program and I believe he would have stayed another 2 seasons if the NFL opportunity wasn't there. I believe he would be coaching the Rebels now if that played out.

My point is unfortunately long in writing but simple in truth. We are exactly where we were with Bower and Fed with Hop. The people who disagreed with the hire of Hop never gave him a fair chance for support and still refuse to regardless. I wish most on this board would acknowledge how horrible the timing was for Monkens exit and what kind of situation Jay jumped into from a timing perspective. Not just from a recruiting deadline but also trying to hire coaches and assemble a staff at such a late date. Year 1 was a survival mission all things considered. If you don't think it was difficult just look at Scott Frost at Nebraska or Chip Kelly at UCLA today......and those are two solid coaches that had time to assemble and protect recruits. Should Nebraska lose to Troy and still be winless or should UCLA lose to Cinci and Fresno at home? No, but when you navigate a new staff and system it takes time.

Hop is getting his talented recruits into his scheme and system. Y2 was his first full season as coach and he got 8 wins with some bad loses. Nobody was going to beat FAU's hired team of misfits last season so guess what we got for a "down" year? A bowl game against FSU. Why? Plain and simple, because we are Southern Miss and that still means something to those that know the game.

Hops young players are leading our team at almost every skill position and its going to take time. Dawson needs to be here thru next season to prove(or not) he is more than a good recruiter and that his offense can put up points. Its easy for people to criticize the play calling but every offense has a limited playbook. Matchups dictate what works and doesn't work not whats on the page. If you didn't see the speed to the outside by Auburn then I can't help you understand. Against UNT, we moved the ball well but failed to execute in the redzone due to turnovers and missed field goals. We easily gave away 10 points in the first 5 minutes of the 3rd. You can't do that against a veteran team. The fact that they got down in UNT territory against a top 25 veteran defense tells you that the right plays were called. Jack had over 300 yards passing and Mosley had 75 yards rushing.....both playing their 5th FBS game. We can move the ball. Inexperience causes mistakes and turnovers. Jacks turnover against ULM cost the game and thats going to happen.

We just need to show the same patience we gave Bower and LFed. If it doesn't translate into 9+ wins by end of next season then we need to evaluate beyond recruiting.

Re: Bower or LFed....

I've seen several references to Monken's asshole personality recently. Can someone give examples of what they mean? I wasn't too close to the program back then... I remember going to the "last" UAB football game in 2014, but not much else during those years. I do remember him getting chapped ass when Stinkfist spied on his scrimmage, but other than that he seemed like a pretty OK dude.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Monken was fine but he was not humored by stupid reporters asking dumb questions. He always seemed irritated when interviewed. I liked his quirkiness.

And NGB - who said I hated Dawson? I met the guy and he was cool as fuck! I'd love to drink more beer with him but he ain't got it right now. Maybe he will one day but I think he's been promoted too fast for whatever reason (Peter Principle at work). As for the Kentucky game, I think he spent most of a year scheming how to beat a Defense he played every day in practice. And he beat them with a really good quarterback, something he didn't have at Kentucky. If Nick is not our QB that day, we lose 100%. So to recant my prior statement: Nick gets 91% credit, Dawson gets 4% and the home crowd gets the other 5%!

Re: Bower or LFed....

Maybe I missed it's mention, but doesn't win count by coach have to be weighted by strength of schedules? Guess it'd take a lot of work to analyze, but generally hasn't ours been declining?

Very true. Throw out the games against the Florida Directionals, and even Bower's weakest team accomplished more in real terms than any Monken or Hopson team we've seen.

Bower's first two years weren't great, but they included wins over Auburn and Virginia Tech. Of course there were lots of wins over teams now in the AAC as well.

USM beat at least one team currently in the P5 in every year from 1977 to 1992.

There was a philosophical change at USM during Giannini's tenure. The focus shifted from competing at the highest level and rolling with the punches to artificially manufacturing petty championships, rivalries, and bowel bids.

If the sun is ever to shine on USM athletics again, that philosophical change must be undone. It's better to lose than it is to not even really try.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Very true. Throw out the games against the Florida Directionals, and even Bower's weakest team accomplished more in real terms than any Monken or Hopson team we've seen.

Bower's first two years weren't great, but they included wins over Auburn and Virginia Tech. Of course there were lots of wins over teams now in the AAC as well.

USM beat at least one team currently in the P5 in every year from 1977 to 1992.

Bowers weakest team had two wins........and half of those came against a 1AA team. The other half of those wins came against a two win team. He lost to a 3 win Pitt team and a 3 win Tulane team..........at home. Using your comment how does that accomplish more than any Monken or Hopson team we have ever seen?

We want to believe that the past was so much better than today that we forget that it was just as bad if not worse. Why is losing to a 3 win Tulane team better than losing a dominant UNT team? Because UNT isn't a traditional 1A program? Ok.....

The same people bitching about where we are today didn't go to the home games when the perception that times where great existed. I know, I was there when we were 7-4 and lost a bowl bid to Wake. Those are the same posters on FB that wake up everyday and post fire Dawson, fire Hop and hire back LFed who is in the middle of a 5-16 stretch right now.

Re: Bower or LFed....

Why is losing to a 3 win Tulane team better than losing a dominant UNT team? Because UNT isn't a traditional 1A program? Ok.....

That's a big part of it. Also, a defense we thought was pretty damn good gave up 30 points.

It's also a bit depressing that we have to play at places like that so much now, and how poor the crowds are. TV is gone. The overall profile of the program and its ability to serve as an ambassador for USM have been greatly eroded. You make a good case, but sports bars aren't firing up the Rokus on Saturday, and that means we're pretty much screwed in terms of perception.