Don't forget about palatalization, which is what the soft sign (the letter that looks like a lower case B at the end of the numbers for 5-10) indicates. It is not a sound in and of itself (in the sense of "ay", "bee", "cee"), but as a phonological process, palatization in Russian is quite important, and can be contrastive (e.g., брать and брат are two different words).

Would you say that the palatalization is somewhat like "hinting" at the letter without actually pronouncing it? IDK how to describe this really, sorta saying "five" as "pya" and ending with my tongue on the roof of my mouth without doing the "te" sound you would do in English - i.e. "boat".

A palatalized sound is pronounced with the tongue raised towards the palate. The example Wikipedia gives of this secondary articulation is the initial glide in the word "yellow", so it's like a very soft "y" added after the particular consonant, if you could imagine adding just the "y", without the following "e" that adds voicing (try it a few times and you'll get used to it...or end up sounding like a Tatar).

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon. Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian. Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon. Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian. Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.

One in RussianTwo in RussianThree in RussianFour in RussianFive in RussianSix in RussianSeven in RussianEight in RussianNine in RussianTen in Russian

There.

hehehe

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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon. Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian. Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative? Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine?

Learn to speak Ukrainian and spend some time in Ukrainian speaking areas and you'll quickly realize how different the languages are. Right now you are blowing smoke about something you really have no idea about. It is funny how for the most part the Russian chauvinists in Ukraine have given up the whole "just a dialect" myth since they can't effectively communicate in Ukrainian despite having been exposed to it for decades.

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative? Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine?

As for me, I repose on the only facts and rationalism. On the other hand, you believe in the ideology of your wife.And ethnically it's hard to call me a "Russian", but I'm a part of the cultural Pax Russica/Sovietica

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have given up the whole "just a dialect" myth since they can't effectively communicate in Ukrainian despite having been exposed to it for decades.

Do you speak Cockney dialect? Is it hard for a cockney speaker to adopt the language of the Queen and vice-versa? (the questions are rhetorical)

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative? Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine?

As for me, I repose on the only facts and rationalism. On the other hand, you believe in the ideology of your wife.And ethnically it's hard to call me a "Russian", but I'm a part of the cultural Pax Russica/Sovietica

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have given up the whole "just a dialect" myth since they can't effectively communicate in Ukrainian despite having been exposed to it for decades.

Do you speak Cockney dialect? Is it hard for a cockney speaker to adopt the language of the Queen and vice-versa? (the questions are rhetorical)

"A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot," so quipped a yiddish scholar at one point in time. The Ukrainians, I assume, have an army and navy, so if they claim that their dialekt iz a shprakh, there ain't anything you can do about it, tough boy, because Ukrainian isn't Russian if they say so. Poor Vladik, you must feel so out of control.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 05:19:47 AM by Cavaradossi »

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Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Why does Russian chauvinism have to be inherently negative? Why can't you simply be proud of your Russian heritage without belittling Ukraine?

As for me, I repose on the only facts and rationalism. On the other hand, you believe in the ideology of your wife.And ethnically it's hard to call me a "Russian", but I'm a part of the cultural Pax Russica/Sovietica

You have adopted Russian chauvinism regardless of your DNA.

I'm actually going on my experience of working in the language industry and education in Ukraine. Despite what the extremists on both sides say, Ukraine really is a bilingual country and you really need a decent knowledge of both languages to succeed. This is becoming a greater problem as the quality of the educational system is terrible and isn't producing people who speak both languages properly.

On a lighter note, Ukrainian is simply more accurate in some cases. Гаишник is даишник and Верховна Рада України works better than Верховый Совет Украины (i.e вру is more accurate than всу)

Do you speak Cockney dialect? Is it hard for a cockney speaker to adopt the language of the Queen and vice-versa? (the questions are rhetorical)

I can pretty easily understand both. A monolingual Russian understands something approaching 0% of conversational Ukrainian. If the the Ukrainian slows down, uses simple words and grammar then the Russian can understand only the basics. But then again the same is also true with say a Russian and Bulgarian or Serbian.

And these Ukrainian dialects ain't similar; they say, that Galician dialect is a separate language (too many Polish influence).

Actually the ideology of Ukranianism was created in Lemberg (Lviv) by the Polish linguists serving the Austrian secret services in order to undermine the Russian expansion in their Ruthenian/Rusinian/Russian or - how they finaly say in our days - "Ukrainian" provinces. FYI Seberia had been also called "Ukraine" in the 17th century, since the word "Ukraine" (Oukraina or Okraina) literally does mean "the outskirts", and "Ukrainian" - "a man from the outskirts". The original name of the Ukrainians is "Rusinians" (Rusin or Rus'ki) (compare it with "Russians" - Russky).

So Vladik, without a dictionary what does that say? Since Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian you should at least get the gist of it.

Yes, I've got the gist. I meant the syntax, but you are talknig about the lexicon. Yes, lexicon is not the same there is in Ukrainian and Russian dialects. There is a lot of Polish and even Hungarian words in Ukranian, especially West Ukrainian (Lemberg) dialect.The syntax is the same there's in German language, but the lexicon of the Swiss German isn't same with Pomeranian one. And all they speak in some different dialects of the one language.

E.g. чекає from your text is a Polish word czekac' (to look for).

Well, it's hard to understand West Ukrainian dialects for me (especially those from the former Austrian Lemberg or Uzhgorod), but I've understood 100% Ukrainian TV shows which I've watched. E.g. I perfectly understand Harry Poter in Ukrainian language (sounds so funny I watch it as a comedy)

In English counties there are so non understandable dialects that people from neighbouring villages can't understand each other. English dialects from Edinburg or Wales are extremely hard to understand. So, even Englishmen need an interpretor to talk each other (but they have the same syntax! that's why that is English language).

LOL. And Kirill with Methodios had created the letter (ерь - yer') for no special reason?

Even the syntax is the same there is in both Russian and Ukrainian/Belorusian. That's why they are just some dialects of the one language, e.g. as Pomeranian German and Luxemburgisch one.

They are dialects only because the Pomerian Germans (of which I am one, btw, and Pomeranian isn't even High German) and the Luxemburgers have adopted the Standarddeutsch. Russian and Ukrainian have no such standard.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 12:20:57 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

FYI, East Ukraine, South Ukraine with Odessa and Crimea don't share your enthusiasm.

They did in 1991:the independence referendum passed in all of the above. The lowest was Crimea at 54.19%. Sevastopol was 57.07%, and no other oblast passed it less than over 80%.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

well, get said referendum on a ballot, and they'll test your thesis out.

Until then, we'll stick to established fact.

You don't have to have any substantiation for those "recent polls," do you?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I'm well aware of the difference between syntax and lexicon. Even very basic things such as showing possession and obligation are much different in typical, spoken Ukrainian than Russian. Ukrainian is not just Russian with a few different words.