If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You will have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

So, I had the idea to have a sort of vote for the absolute worst of the worst in 3.x: stuff that makes you really blanch on sight. I'm keeping track of the top ten by vote in a short table, and all the other suggestions in a much longer one.

Everyone gets up to ten votes, and you can put up to three of them on the same suggestion (yours, or someone else's), or put up to one negative vote per suggestion you disagree with, which counts as one of your ten total; you can redistribute votes at will. Also, try to keep suggestions as tight and self-contained as possible: rather than saying "Sarrukh", try "Manipulate Form"; rather than "Wizard", try "Shapechange". Finally, please try to make all votes clear, to reduce the possibility of misinterpretation.

1Dust of Sneezing and Choking: A serious status condition inflicted for an absurd duration, no save, no SR, by a cheap cursed item.

Chicken-Infested: Probably one of the wondrous deeds of writing that earned Dragon Magazine its remarkably dubious reputation for balance. This is a flaw that acts more like a cheesily-written spell, and has about the same level of common sense. (I.e., none.)

I'm really wanting to say Candle Of Invocation as the default response, but I think the Ex vs Su vs SLA rules have to take the cake just for how common they are. It says everything is one of those let fails to specify many abilities. Leads to many of the problems with Polymorph in general.

If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.

Originally Posted by kardar233

I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.

You would be horrified by what can be done by having an nigh-infinite supply of warm, breathing chickens to feed into your spells, particularly as you can take out what amounts to an infinite supply instantly, (free action to draw an item, free actions can be done by RAW an infinite number of times in one turn...)

I don't see what's so bad about Chicken Infested. It's meant to be silly, and it is.

What's the name again of that third-level spell that drops an enemy's dexterity by 3d6? Surely, one-shotting dragons at level 5 is well written

pssst don't tell my DM.

I just got this spell at lvl 5 and I'm in search of large beasties.

He says: You know they are CR:X Right?

Dascarletm, Spinner of Rudiplorked Tales, and Purveyor of Puns

Originally Posted by Blackhawk748

I think you broke something with all those puns.....

Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired

That being said, If one of my players came up to me a proposed using IHS to conceive I would absolutely let them do it. Melee never gets to have nice things. I'm not about to take away their right to have kids.

If we're allowing Pathfinder material here, how about Antagonize? Mind-control your enemies with a laughably easy skill check as a standard action at-will.

Ehh, why not. It's in.

Originally Posted by Stallion

Needs moar truenamer.

Fair enough, although I'd prefer a tighter entry (IMO, not all of truenamer is ill-written, just one of the lexicons, one or both of the Laws, the check scaling.... )

Originally Posted by avr

Any of the feats which don't do anything by RAW; Ride-by attack is the only one I remember.

Iron Heart Surge deserves first place & the polymorph line second, but those feats should come in down the list.

I suggest the polymorph line should take up only one place BTW.

All of these are in. Note: I interpreted your priorities as indicating max votes (3) for IHS and increased votes (2) for the polymorph line. If that's incorrect, please let me know; I don't want to resort to judgment calls much.

Originally Posted by Amoren

I second all of truenamer. Then add a vote for the feat entry requirements for Invisible Blade (really?), and then finally add a vote for all of CW Samurai.

Another "entire class" entry, I see. Any possibility of cutting that down?

Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf

I'm really wanting to say Candle Of Invocation as the default response, but I think the Ex vs Su vs SLA rules have to take the cake just for how common they are. It says everything is one of those let fails to specify many abilities. Leads to many of the problems with Polymorph in general.

Both are added.

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Divine metamagic in general.

Either fighter or wizard, depending on where on the tier ranking you like to play.

From my perspective, neither Fighter nor Wizard are exactly badly written in isolation; their imbalance comes from the nature of feats vs. spells. But, you know, it's a matter of perspective I guess.

Originally Posted by willpell

It's not a feat, but you could include Trap Sense, the thing that gives you a dodge bonus to AC versus traps, which are usually hitting you while you're flat-footed and thus don't get a dodge bonus.

Ah, I remember that.

Originally Posted by killianh

No one has said the planar bubble from planar shepherd yet? its bad writing is what allowed that whole 10:1 time flow thing to happen

Hey, the thread's only been going for a few hours!

Originally Posted by willpell

Anything that allows you to become a Genie and grant yourself Wishes probably qualifies too.

Yes, but more specifically?

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

What's the name again of that third-level spell that drops an enemy's dexterity by 3d6? Surely, one-shotting dragons at level 5 is well written

Shivering touch. In it goes!

Originally Posted by Doorhandle

You would be horrified by what can be done by having an nigh-infinite supply of warm, breathing chickens to feed into your spells, particularly as you can take out what amounts to an infinite supply instantly, (free action to draw an item, free actions can be done by RAW an infinite number of times in one turn...)

Is this an official vote for the wretchedness of Chicken-Infested?

Originally Posted by ben-zayb

Well, there's Precocious Apprentice, which up until now was a topic of debate for early PrC entry. Some say it contradicts itself and is really poorly worded.

Also, what about the Dead condition as being poorly defined too?

Another one: damage based on weight(wth) and carrying capacity exppnentially strength-dependent, which leads to hulking hurlers literally throwing the whole ground/mountain/planet.

Lastly, just ranting on Setting Sun's Hydra Slaying Strike, although it's more of false advertising than borkenness.

I don't know about the last personally, but the others are familiar to me.

I'm amused to see a ton of suggestions but not much agreement yet; no one has even come close to using up their 10 votes, and only one person has felt strongly enough to put 3 on one. Anyway, I've updated the list, so on we go!

Oh yeah, there's the cancer mage, I think it's called? Normally corruption is a detrimental mechanic, but this guy doesn't really suffer from the side effects, and gets a ludicrous boost to its spell DC.

There's also beholder mage, which can actually be entered (somehow) via polymorph spells.

"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain

Are you sure this is the correct link? Furaffinity doesn't have anything to do with DnD, AFAIK, and sometimes is NSFW.

By clicking this link, you open a pop-up, but I get a eurocent for my current wish, the 5th book of the Wheel of Time series. Please note that this only works if you leave the pop-up open until it has finished loading. Thank you!

I saw this thread, and the first thing that popped to my mind was Candle of Invocation.

Unlike other poorly written things that exist in 3.5, Candle of invocation is worded precisely. It explicitly details what it does, although it hides the truly broken part after an end-of-page break.
Things like Iron Heart Surge or Drowning, there's obviously a hole. Something the DM needs to Rule Zero in. They are BADLY written. One line of text would fix either one.

Candle of Invocation? Oh no. The writers knew EXACTLY what they were doing. The CoI is a piece of Dev Malice against all DMs, a piece of aged cheddar that doesn't hide what it does, it just puts it after a wall of text to make lazy or inexperienced DMs think it's OK.

Munchkins cackle out loud at gaming tables when the oft-asked question of "Can I buy this?" is answered by a "Yes" from the DM after cursory examination.

The Dust of Sneezing and Choking compares, but is not nearly as game-breaking. Sure, your lv 5 party can take out a Great Wyrm Black Dragon with it, but you have to actually find the dragon. CoI? You gate in something with Wish SLI, then wish for some dust of sneezing, then wish to be transported to the nearest safe location within throwing distance of a Great Wyrm black dragon.

One more vote on an existing suggestion and we could ensure that all the top ten have at least two votes!

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Oh yeah, there's the cancer mage, I think it's called? Normally corruption is a detrimental mechanic, but this guy doesn't really suffer from the side effects, and gets a ludicrous boost to its spell DC.

There's also beholder mage, which can actually be entered (somehow) via polymorph spells.

Two more to add!

I might actually put the ridiculous duration clauses in PaO in separately.

Sure, why not? ... although that's not the official link by any means.

Anything in 3.x that's just stupidly broken is fair game. Make sure to vote for some others, though!

Originally Posted by karpik777

No one mentioned Adamantine Horror (this was the one with the absurd at-wills, right?) yet? Also, Tainted Scholar - perhaps not in itself, but combine it with being undead...

Though IHS still takes the cake.

Yeah, adamantine horror is the one with multiple at-will 9ths. At CR 9.

Is that two votes for IHS, or three, or just one? (I'm assuming two for now.)

Originally Posted by Acanous

I saw this thread, and the first thing that popped to my mind was Candle of Invocation.

Unlike other poorly written things that exist in 3.5, Candle of invocation is worded precisely. It explicitly details what it does, although it hides the truly broken part after an end-of-page break.
Things like Iron Heart Surge or Drowning, there's obviously a hole. Something the DM needs to Rule Zero in. They are BADLY written. One line of text would fix either one.

Candle of Invocation? Oh no. The writers knew EXACTLY what they were doing. The CoI is a piece of Dev Malice against all DMs, a piece of aged cheddar that doesn't hide what it does, it just puts it after a wall of text to make lazy or inexperienced DMs think it's OK.

Munchkins cackle out loud at gaming tables when the oft-asked question of "Can I buy this?" is answered by a "Yes" from the DM after cursory examination.

The Dust of Sneezing and Choking compares, but is not nearly as game-breaking. Sure, your lv 5 party can take out a Great Wyrm Black Dragon with it, but you have to actually find the dragon. CoI? You gate in something with Wish SLI, then wish for some dust of sneezing, then wish to be transported to the nearest safe location within throwing distance of a Great Wyrm black dragon.

It's not just cheese, it's the entire omelette, besides.

An eloquent and well-reasoned condemnation.

However, it unfortunately lacks a specific vote, so I'll assume one for CoI for now.

Here are two new ones. Persist Spell, and Nightsticks. I don't think DMM is the problem per se; numerous feats and features simply assume that Turn Undead is a strictly limited resource. And it normally is, except if you buy cheap, cheap nightsticks to blast your limit through the roof. Persist Spell makes spells last way longer than they should, and goes a long way towards wrecking the spell resource system.

And, if you're going to put entire classes on the list, you should at least put the Druid and Monk there. The Druid is a full caster, and has innate polymorph ability, and comes with a free beatstick that tends to be better than the party fighter, so it is three classes wrapped in one. Broken straight from level one, which wizards markedly are not.
And the Monk. Need I really say more? We've had so many threads about the class that at some point we were suggesting a subforum to drop the monk threads in. We've had whole guides dedicated to explaining exactly how sucky the monk is. It deserves to be near the top, because it's a class that wildly fails to live up to its promise, and a common trap for newbies.

Okay, my vote for the Polymorph Line (and just put PAO under there, it's the same thing); Candle of Inv; Tainted Scholar; Shivering Touch; the Su/Ex/SLA rule; Prec Apprentice; Persist Spell; Nightstick; the monk; and the monk again.

Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2012-07-09 at 06:54 AM.

"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain