Jorpho wrote:I was reading a lot about Cerebus the Aardvark on TVTropes and Wikipedia the other day. Seems to fall rather short of the "awesome" classification, though.

Anyone here ever try to tackle this thing? It sounds like quite the mindscrew.

I found the first volume in the library the other week. (They have many of the later volumes too, but not all.) I'd heard a lot about Dave Sim's, er, shall we say, unconventional ideas, and how he spent a lot of the later issues shoehorning them into Cerebus. But the first volume is before all that, thankfully, and is worth reading.

It starts off as basically just a spoof of barbarian stories, but with the inherently hilarious concept of a the main character being a grouchy badass who just happens to be a funny animal (see also: Howard the Duck, who appeared ). It's all amusing enough, but there are two particularly funny characters: Foghorn Leghorn soundalike Elrod, whose appearances are always highlights; and the Cockroach, who's used to parody various superheroes. There is a lot of that: there's a fun take on Robin's origin at one point, and one villain is a telepathic sorcerer called Charles X. Claremont. I hear there's a brilliant Sandman spoof in one of the later issues, which Neil Gaiman said was "easily the best parody of Sandman anyone's ever done, as various members of the Cerebus cast of characters become Snuff, Swoon and the rest of the Clueless. It was wickedly funny, and had the author of Sandman curling his toes when he read it."

The first first few issues look a little weird, but he soon nails down Cerebus' design, and after that the art is good; even this early in the series he's using interesting panels - there's one story where Cerebus is unconcious and spends basically the entire issue against a black background, which still manages to be visually interesting.

So yeah, this first volume, at least, is worth reading.

mosc wrote:Anyway, I'll continue to try and find Sandman 1. Not surprisingly, it seems to get sold pretty quick and they don't like stocking lots of them because 2 through 9 are usually still sitting on the shelf. Maybe I'll break down and order it.

I wish more libraries and bookshops would, in general, stock more copies of the first entries in a series (whether prose novel or comic) than of the later volumes. Surely it would only help get more people hooked on a series, and therefore help their sales?

Jesse wrote:If you pick up a Mainstream 'Graphic novel' you will get the feeling it is seven or so comics stuck together because that is precisely what it is. DC/Marvel/Vertigo/everything is written and released in issues. The reason Watchmen felt bigger than that is because it was written with the novel part in mind, and thus was able to have a clear beginning and end without tying into a further continuity.

Watchmen was no less written for the single issue format than DKR was. Hell, the entire "Fearful Symmetry" chapter only really works as it intended when viewed by itself. DKR's entire connection to continuity was "there's this guy who dresses like a bat and beats up criminals and he's made a few enemies over time and eventually retired and now he's back!"

Mosc, Sandman vol. 1 is available on Amazon if you're in the US, and most likely other countries, as well.

Watchmen, while written for single issues, was conceived as a NOVEL, with a clear beginning, middle and end. Whereas Batman trades are written as stories within a larger continuity, that tie in things form outside, and leave itself open to be followed on by the next story coming along.

mosc wrote:Well, just noticed this thread spawned a whole subforum but wanted to post my update here anyway. I finished the Watchmen and found it a much more interesting introduction than The Dark Knight was. Watchmen felt more like a narrative where The Dark Knight felt much more like a traditional series of comics. Beyond it's dark tone (which wasn't nearly as dark as I thought it would be from numerous expressions), it was really just ~7 batman comics glued together.

If you want to kick it up a notch or seven, pick up From Hell. Damn comic is dense. If you've seen the movie, I'll break it down where it differs - 90% of the plot and character development has been removed with a hatchet, and they've slapped in a silly romance and idiotic drug addiction.

heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.

heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

Jesse wrote:Watchmen, while written for single issues, was conceived as a NOVEL, with a clear beginning, middle and end. Whereas Batman trades are written as stories within a larger continuity, that tie in things form outside, and leave itself open to be followed on by the next story coming along.

I'm talking about The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller, specifically, not an average Detective Comics or Batman trade. DKR was conceived and executed no differently than Watchmen with the minor exception of using existing characters (which Watchmen was conceived as, albeit executed differently). It has a clear beginning, middle, and end and wasn't really intended to be have anything to do with any existing continuity other than some basic stuff that's not terribly important to the story.

Jesse wrote:Watchmen, while written for single issues, was conceived as a NOVEL, with a clear beginning, middle and end. Whereas Batman trades are written as stories within a larger continuity, that tie in things form outside, and leave itself open to be followed on by the next story coming along.

I'm talking about The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller, specifically, not an average Detective Comics or Batman trade. DKR was conceived and executed no differently than Watchmen with the minor exception of using existing characters (which Watchmen was conceived as, albeit executed differently). It has a clear beginning, middle, and end and wasn't really intended to be have anything to do with any existing continuity other than some basic stuff that's not terribly important to the story.

If that's true, then they just failed at it. Dark Knight Returns was a great collection of comics but the pages were simple illustrations and the story brutally linear.

Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

Why does a story have to be non-linear to be considered a graphic novel? I can list plenty of linear graphic novel stories are not just a bunch of comics glued together (as you like to put it). I'm not claiming it's the work of art that Watchmen is, but it's considered nearly as important to the medium.

This seems to have swerved from a recommendation thread...but I'm going to recommend something anyway--just to break with tradition.

Blue Monday by Chynna Clugston. I'm not sure whether to call it an OEL--because it's not really mangaish aside from some stylistic aspects. It's about a bunch of highschool kids in the 90s, and that's about as descriptive as I can get. There's lots of Buster Keaton references. After a pretty long hiatus there has been new serials, which I'm waiting for a collected trade for.

I'm not big on super heroes. For the most part, I find them to be pretty boring. Apparently, so does Garth Ennis, except in his case you'd call it more of a blind hatred for them. This has been evident in his work in the past, through The Pro and some of his work on other books. With The Boys he turns off the blinders and releases a harsh look at what super heroes would be in the real world. They're corrupt, evil and without boundaries. Besides, who would stand up to them?

Who watches the Watchmen?

The Boys do.

Not for the weak of heart, it is classic Ennis in that it's full of ultra-violence, gore, nudity and language. It starts out with a bang, start slowing down a bit, but as of the latest issues it looks like a helluva trip we're on.

"Chess is such a difficult game. Sooo many pieces." - Rivers Cuomo, Chess

I wouldn't say this is a literary classic, or even technically a graphic "novel", but I'd definitely categorize Capacity by Theo Ellsworth as 336 pages of awesomeness! The stories are really fun and often silly but the art is the best part: it's really distinctive and full of wonderful details. It took me a long time to read because I kept getting lost in individual pages.

The recent Homestar Runner Halloween cartoon led me to look up Scud: The Disposable Assassin, which sounds pretty nifty.

I am also intrigued by The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck. (At a Halloween event many, many, many years ago, I got a Gladstone comic that included "The Prize of Pizzaro". I read that thing so many times over the years.)

eternal luna's looking for some comic to analyze for her English class dealing with the concepts of Othering and/or Belonging.

As she admits that she's not too up on the Comic scene, self-contained stuff would be for the best, and she'd prefer stuff that told it's story more through art than walls of text.

So far I've mentioned We3 by Grant Morrison, Orbiter by Warren Ellis, Marvels by Kurt Busiek (yeah, the one painted by Alex Ross), and User by Devin Grayson.. though that one's likely hard to find these days.

I'm wondering if the miniseries of Black Orchid that Neil Gaiman did would also work...

Anyway, anyone else have any thoughts to add?

heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.

heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

I know it's not good to post just one word, so I won't. But seriously, it's called "Watchmen". No "the" and in plural. There's... more than one.

Watchmen* But seriously I think I was a bit out of it when I posted that, as I had just finished reading The Eternals. Watchmen was great also, but I was planning on NOT mentioning that, since everyone else already has.

-Jamie

Jamie---------------------I have with me two gods, Persuasion and Compulsion. - Themistocles

Just bought the first 4 issues (i.e. graphic novel collections) of both Fables and Y: Last Man. Lovin them.But theres still some deep dark part of me that cries every time I read a graphic novel, saying "nothing is better than Watchmen, and may never be!"