Wednesday, October 5, 2011

Starship Shares a TLB-Related Excerpt From the Book:

"Fire and Rain: The Beatles, Simon & Garfunkel, James Taylor, CSNY and the Lost Story of 1970", by David Browne. Copyright 2011

Starship provides some background/bibliography:Browne is a writer for Rolling Stone magazine. For this book, he apparently had access to Rolling Stone's vast archives of information, including previously unpublished interviews which he mentions quite a bit. The bibliography for this book cites 48 other books, HELTER SKELTER among them. Additionally he cites a number of articles, two of which are relevant here:

1) A Washington Post Article (whose abtract I cannot get to paste correctly), titled "Beatle Asked to Testify at Tate Trial", published Oct 29, 1970The defense wants John Lennon of the Beatles to testify in the Sharon Tate murder trial on whether one of the group's songs could have inspired Charles Manson to violence.

2) A New York Times article, titled "Tate Jury Denied Death-Site Visit; Judge in Trial of Manson Bars After-Dark Trip" By Earl Caldwell, January 19, 1971, Page 29.[ DISPLAYING ABSTRACT ]LOS ANGELES, Jan. 18 -- The Tate-La Bianca jury interrupted its deliberations today with a surprising request for permission to make an after-dark visit to the sites of the murders for which Charles M. Manson and his women co-defendants are being tried.Browne also claims as primary source materials interviews he conducted in person, by phone, or over email between November 2008 and September 2010. Relevant here is that he lists Nils Lofgren Danny Kortchmar, Dan Richter, and Vincent Bugliosi as people he interviewed during this time.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Now for the Excerpt of TLB-Related Text/Info:As Charles Manson stared at him, an "X" mark freshly carved into his forehead with a razor blade (the infamous swastika came later), "Vincent Bugliosi prepared to tell the world why Manson had convinced some of his followers to kill. Bugliosi knew some in the legal community would think the sad-eyed deputy district attorney of Los Angeles County was crazy. But now, in the Hall of Justice on the morning of July 24, the first day of the State of California vs. Charles Manson and six of his follow­ers, Bugliosi knew the time had arrived to tell the world that the Beat­les indirectly had something to do with it. Rumors about the connection between Manson and the Beatles had first circulated in February, when an unnamed source in the District At­torney's office told the Los Angeles Times that prosecutors in the case were examining a possible link between the killers and the White Album. The story spread when it was picked up by the New York Post the following day. As laid out by the source—not Bugliosi, who denied talking to any­one in the media before the trial had begun—the idea seemed too fan­tastical to be true. Manson envisioned a coming war between blacks and whites in which only Manson and his followers would survive. The best way to inaugurate the war was to slaughter a bunch of white people in Los Angeles and make it appear as if African Americans had committed the crimes.The story only grew stranger as it continued. To Manson, the entire tale was laid out in the White Album. He interpreted "Honey Pie" (which beckoned someone to "sail across the ocean") as the Beatles’ message to him. "Happiness Is a Warm Gun" was a communiqué to blacks telling them to prepare to rise up and fight; "Blackbird" sup­posedly served the same purpose. The war itself would be called "Helter Skelter," another song on the record; the battle was laid out in the chaotic noise of "Revolution 9." In another supposed sign of his bond with the Beatles, Manson claimed he'd renamed Susan Atkins "Sadie" long before the album's "Sexy Sadie." On it went—all of it, according to Bugliosi's theory, culminating in the grisly murders the previous Au­gust of eight-months-pregnant actress Sharon Tate, coffee heiress Abi­gail Folger, hairdresser Jay Sebring, writer Wojiciech Frykowski, teenager Steven Parent, and supermarket executive Leno LaBianca and his wife Rosemary.When the Times and Post stories emerged, the prevailing feeling was disbelief; Rolling Stone ran a skeptical commentary on the reports. But Bugliosi was convinced after two Family members, Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins, told him separately about Manson's consuming obsession with the album.In the valleys and canyons of Los Angeles, Manson's ties with rock and roll were well known; he'd spooked plenty in the music community. Two years earlier, he and members of the Family had crashed at the home of Beach Boy Dennis Wilson; Wilson went so far as to oversee demos of Manson singing his own songs. One of them, "Cease to Exist" (retitled "Never Learn Not to Love" by Wilson), wound up on a Beach Boys album. Returning to his apartment one day, Danny Kortchmar, James Taylor's lead guitarist, found his place ransacked, guitars and equipment gone. Later, Kortchmar heard the Family may have been re­sponsible; Manson, he heard, dispatched members of his flock to rob musicians' homes so Manson would have the gear necessary to fulfill his fantasy of being a rock star. Manson had also been angry with record producer Terry Melcher, who'd expressed interest in recording an album of Manson's songs until he saw the dark side of the diminutive cult leader. Melcher had previously lived at the Cielo Drive house where the Tate murders were committed.Near Neil Young's home in Topanga Canyon, everyone knew about Manson. While staying in the house of David Briggs, Young's friend and producer, Nils Lofgren heard the stories about Manson's crew and saw the weapons Briggs and his friends were storing in case they came by. One day, Lofgren and Bobby Morse, one of Briggs' roommates, went to Briggs' home to pick up something for a session. "Oh, no, it's that crazy bitch," Morse said, gesturing at a girl in front of the house, standing be­side a car with a flat tire. The girl asked to see another of their room­mates. "He's not here," Morse said curtly. "You gotta get out of here." They quickly replaced her tire, but when the girl insisted on staying, Morse told her she couldn't. "They're bad people," Morse told Lofgren after she left, "and we don't want 'em here." Months later, when Manson and Family members were arrested on charges of murder, Lofgren rec­ognized the girl as one of the accomplices.The chilly repercussions extended to the U.K. Just before the mur­ders, Dan Richter was living at the home Lennon had owned before Tittenhurst. Afraid the Lennons were next in line and that the killers might discover where he lived, the Richters moved, at Lennon and Ono's invi­tation, to Tittenhurst. In his opening statement in court, Bugliosi hardly minced words when relaying his theory. "The evidence will show Manson's fanatical obses­sion with 'Helter Skelter,' a term he got from the English musical group the Beatles," he told the jury. "Manson was an avid follower of the Bea­tles and believed that they were speaking to him across the ocean through the lyrics of their songs." To bolster his case, Bugliosi entered the White Album as evidence, along with a door from Spahn Ranch (where the Family had been living) on which "Helter Skelter" had been scrawled. The lyrics to the songs were read into evidence.To Bugliosi's surprise, no public outcry greeted his theory. Leaving the courtroom that day, no reporters besieged him to ask for further details. He didn't know whether to be shocked or not. Bugliosi himself never heard from any of the Beatles or their representatives. Even if the public, press or his fellow lawyers thought he was insane, the jury made it clear it took his theory seriously. During the trial, they requested a stereo for the delib­eration room along with their own copy of the Beades' two-LP set. For a moment, the Beatles themselves were almost pulled into the case when Manson's defense team sent a writ to Lennon to testify. "We feel he may want to explain the lyrics," a member of the team told the As­sociated Press. Reached for comment by the press, Apple spokesman Derek Taylor was pithy as always. Requesting Lennon's presence at the trial, he said, was "like summoning Shakespeare to explain Macbeth." Be­sides, he added, it was McCartney, not his former band partner, who wrote "Helter Skelter." The plan ran aground when Manson's lawyers couldn't find a way to physically administer summonses to each Beatle. Apparently, none of them knew that, during the jury-selection process that began in mid June, Lennon was in their very city, undergoing pri­mal scream therapy.

Five months later, Rolling Stone's Wenner asked Lennon about the trial and Manson's interpretations of some of his songs. "He's balmy, he's like any other Beatle kind of fan who reads mysticism into it," he said of Manson. "... I don't know, what's 'Helter Skelter' got to do with knif­ing somebody? I've never listened to the words properly, it was just noise." The trial and the association was just another death knell for his former band.

Thanks Starship!! You Rock!!

"Click" below to view a video interview of the Author... David Browne.

147 comments:

Now... I just have to read the article more closely and comment, when I have a chance.

That's the trouble sometimes with this "administration" job...I spend so much time getting threads posted, it takes me a while, to catch-up in the comments section, and actually participate in the discussion. LOLBut, I usually do... (catch-up, that is)...

Thanks Again Starship... Your Help, Research and Knowledge are Much Appreciated!!You ROCK!

Hi Cease2. I'm betting you're right, that probably is the same Robert Morse.

BTW, speaking of Doris Day again, I read in the National Enquirer (yes I know it's all true, LOL) that Doris Day and Paul McCartney had an affair. And the article said that McCartney knew Terry Melcher.

Hi St. I've heard for years (since the 60's) that the Beatles had subliminal messages in their music. You could supposedly play Revolution 9 backward and you could hear "messages" (Paul is a dead man)?

heres a teaser and some of you may know this- but it interesting for those who dont...

The Abbey Road albumn cover...

A rumor was released that Paul had died in a car accident...

Then this Albumn cover comes out and:

in the background there are cars all lined up against the sidewalk of a cemetery on the left..

one car ( volkswagon on left) is actually on the sidewalk as if crashed- the license plate reads 28if ( paul would have been 28 if he lived)

This from the Sgt Pepper Albumn :

On the Front Cover:

1.) All the people are looking at a freshly dug grave.

2.) Paul is holding the musical instrument cor anglais, and it is black, symbolizing death, and the only Beatle holding a black instrument. Where Paul is holding it with his left hand (being left-handed) he is displaying three fingers, meaning only three Beatles left?

3.) This was the first album on Apple Records and the first album that the group wrote their name as "Beatles," rather than "The Beatles." This is inferred to mean that they are no longer a whole as in "The," but now since there are only three, it is just "Beatles."

4.) The yellow hyacinth in the shape of a left-handed guitar only has three strings.

5.) The doll in the red, black and white stripes has a car model on her lap next to her right hand. This model with red interior is supposed to mean the car in which Paul was killed and the red interior is blood.

6.) The other three Beatles' are standing sideways behind the drum, except Paul who is standing forward.

The beatles are crossing the street, and one is dressed like a preacher, one like a gravedigger in all jeans, one like a mouner in a dark suit, and Paul alone is barefoot the way they bury corpses in England...

the back of the albunn as well is filled with hints along these lines..

Katie said:>>>>"Well this confirms what we've said on this blog before.Bugliosi didn't make Helter Skelter up. He heard it from Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins.Bugliosi was just as flabbergasted as everyone else that this could even be possible".<<<<

Excellent Point, Katie.That information was definitely one of the more interesting tidbits from this book.---------------------------------------------------------Katie said:>>>>"This book supports what I've always thought, that the only person who was really interested in Charlie's music was Dennis Wilson. He's the one who was pushing Manson's music on other people.The rest of the music world thought he was nuts. And some of them even thought he was dangerous BEFORE the murders. Interesting."<<<<

Again... another interesting point from this piece.And yes Katie... you have said that in the past.---------------------------------------------------------Katie asked:>>>>"I wonder which of the girls was the "crazy bitch with the flat tire".<<<<

It's not surprising Terry Melcher knew Paul McCartney. Begining in 1968 he worked with the Beatles Apple Records as an independent producer searching for new artists to sign to the label.

Manson must have known Melchers connection to Apple Records.Knowing the connection Charlie and friends must have been super excited at the possibility of Terry signing them to the same label as the Beatles........on the other hand they must have been super pissed when it became obvious Terry had no intention of moving them in that direction.

>>>Matt said: paul is dead man miss him miss him miss him'is between i'm so tired and blackbird>>>

Okay that's where it is. Thanks Matt. I'm trying to remember all this stuff from way back in the 60's and my brain is much older now. LOL.

Now...I could be dreaming..but I think I read somewhere that they took that picture for the album cover for Abbey Road on August 8, 1969, eerily the same day the killers drove to Cielo Drive just before midnight.

I remember another "paul is dead", clue......the White album came with a poster.The poster is of the four members of the band, the backround behind John, George and Ringo is white, while the backround behind Paul is red.The red was supposed to mean blood.

I had never read where the jury wanted to visit the crime scenes. According to the article, they were denied that.

Starship, do you know why?

Also, I remember Bugliosi talking about getting John Lennon to testify at the trial, but they were unable to do so.

John had already said previously that he didn't know why Manson read all that into Helter Skelter and the other songs, and that a lot of people pretty much read into their music what they wanted to hear.

Probably why they added the "secret wording" and "Paul is dead" stuff, just to twist people's minds even more. HA HA.

From a purely physical standpoint... I've always found Susan the most attractive.But... there's simply no denying Ruth's beauty.She was a real peach.I'd probably rate Ruth second...

And of course (as everyone knows)... for the "total package"... I've gotta go with Charlie on this one... Squeaky is my girl. LOLShe had spunk, loyalty... and a soft side.Three qualities coveted by most males. LOLRed hair and freckles... she was over-whelmingly cute as a bug... there's no denying.Completely crackers or not... she's just plain likable...

There is a rumour that one of the men who was there during the Crowe shooting was a dealer for Dennis Wilson. When word reached Wilson what had gone down, he and Melcher ran for cover with Melcher pretending for the rest of his days that he'd had minimal intrest in Charlie's musical abilities.

I believe the jury did indeed visit the crime scenes of tate and LaBianca, however during the day early on in the trial. Later they requested a night-time visit and that is what the judge denied. Too much overtime probably.

Yes, paul is dead was a cool thing....listen to the very end of Strawberry Fields during the final fade out....can't you hear John saying, "I buried Paul". Years later he claimed what he really said was "Cranberry Sauce"...

And on the Sgt Pepper cover: Hold up a small compact make up mirror perpendicualr to center of the word HEARTS on the bass drum The inage formed will say HE DIE...reflecting the H and E to spell HE, the A becomes an arrow pointing directly to Paul, and RTS reflect as DIE

The only time I went up there was back in 1980.It was sometime after midnight when we turned onto Cielo, we passed the turn that leads up to the gate, so it took a minute before we found it.Being the midnight hour of course it was dark.......spooky too.I think the spooky part was do to how quiet it was.I'll never understand how nobody reported the gunshots that killed Steven Parent, nevermind the screams that followed.So quiet......spooky quiet.

I just don't get the Susan Atkins thing because to me she is just a scrawny vile looking woman with a mustache devoid of any grace or beauty.

I am thinking that perhaps her 'other' talents make her more appealing to the men..and its true in this cruel cold world we live in girls like her have to find other ways to attract men so at least she had that part sorted out.

My personal choice for Manson Girl 1969 would be without a doubt Sandra Good who I think was clearly the true beauty of the lot and certainly won the genetic lottery..in the looks dept at least..

A meeting with Susan Atkins.Years ago I found a rather odd story in a comment field about Susan Atkins. It´s a guy who tells a story about how he met miss Atkins on Sunset Blvd just a few weks after the murders. If this guys story is correct in all details then there must be something wrong with the official story. He depict how he gave Susan a ride up to Spahn Ranch in his car and there he met all the others in the family and he even met Manson himself. And what are Charlie talking about? Well, it isn´t Helter Skelter but how they were going to smuggle dope across the border from Mexico.When the news came out of the arrest of the Manson bunch he was summond to the police station and there he was interviewed by a detective. The detective mainly wanted to know what kind of music they were playing on the stereo. The arrest of the Manson gang was in October 69 and it wasn´t before Februari 70 according to Vincent Bug that he became aware of Manson´s HS thing. Here there seems to be a difference in several months between the official story and what this guy relates. Why would a detective wan´t to know what kind of music they were playing in that early state of the investigation? That seems rather odd. A wild guess: Could it be that the police had an informant inside the Manson family or was it one of the ranch hands who was moonlighting as a police informer.

I was about 21 or 22 working at Orbach's in Beverly Hills in the print shop making signs for the store when that all happened. It was a few months before I got into the special effects lighting business. I was eating dinner by myself at Alphie's on Sunset Blvd. one weeknight in September not even a month after those murders. Susan Atkins was walking the Strip, probably panhandling, and out of the crowd she just plopped herself down at my table. Alphie’s was a sidewalk café and my table was right by the street entrance. I was through with dinner and drinking a cup of coffee while watching all the freaks parade past. She introduced herself as Sadie Glutz and started telling me this crazy story about the "Family" she was a part of. I figured she was a very spaced out druggie, and tried to get her to buzz off. I remember thinking she had the most unusual fingers I had ever seen. They were long and skinny, and her fingertips almost came to a point. Anyway, she just kept on and asked me over and over again to give her a ride home. I tried to ignore her, and went in to pay and leave. She followed me, and kept saying that it was only a block away. HA! When I went out back to get in my car, she followed me out there too. She would not take no for an answer. I was driving a classic '62 Mark II Jag, (I still have it) and she just HAD to have a ride in it. I figured WTF, I'll take her a block and be rid of her. Well, then she kept saying that it was just around the next corner. She had me turn left, and the next thing I knew I was on the freeway heading north. Then she said it was the next exit. That kept on until we got to Chatsworth. Then up a mountain that looked like a scene from a Hopalong Cassidy movie to the old movie ranch where they were all hiding out. We got stopped by a couple of cops in the road on the way up there. They had their guns out and said they were after a guy that they thought they may have winged. They searched my trunk, and then let us go on. They told us not to stop for anyone on foot up ahead. To this day I never have figured out what that was all about. I pulled into the rundown ranch, and parked at the hitching post. I knew right away that I could be in real trouble when this really scurvy looking ragtag bunch came out of one of the storefronts and started eyeing me and my car. The Jag, my handmade Italian shoes, and handmade leather coat had them licking their chops. Something told me I would have to play my cards right if I was going to get out of there alive. It never occurred to me then that they could have had anything to do with the recent grisly murders, but they sure looked like they might have something to do with mine.

Anyway, I met all the freaks that were at that ranch, including the old blind man, the little witch who lived outback in a chicken coop, the old cowgirl, and Charlie himself along with all his minions. Charlie told me all about their place in the desert, and asked me to join the group. I was flattered. He said they were going to smuggle dope across the border from Mexico on gliders and get rich. I told him that sounded like a great idea. They needed someone with a legitimate job to get a baby out of protective services the next day when the mother was getting out of jail. Well, of course I told them I would be glad to let them stay with me. So, they let me leave with all my stuff after giving me their phone number. Atkins gave me the number and said it was the number for "Spahn's Family", as she referred to them. I told her I would call her first thing the next day. She told me I was her Sir Lancelot. She said we could all go up in the canyon and have an orgy after we got the baby back. I gave her a phony number and told them I worked at May Co. Then after deftly avoiding a kiss on the cheek, I got the hell out of there. The next morning at work, I told a couple of the guys all about the weirdos I met the night before. I told them the whole story, and we all got a big laugh out of it. I don't remember exact dates, but it was only a couple of weeks or so until one of the guys walked in one morning with the LA Times. He flopped it down in front of me and said they had caught my buddies up in the canyon for killing Sharon Tate. I looked down at the front page and there they all were. I was stunned. That was when I realized that it really was a good thing I had gotten my ass out of there. Well, a couple of hours later after the story had spread all over the store, the head of security came into my office and told me I needed to go downtown to the police station and talk to someone in the homicide division. He said he heard about my encounter with the Manson bunch, and that the cops wanted to talk to anyone who had any contact with them. I left work and went downtown to be interviewed by a detective. He asked me a lot of questions that I couldn't answer, but he mainly wanted to know what kind of music was playing on the stereo when I was there. I told him they were playing Beatles music, which they were. I also told him about the two officers that stopped us on the way up there. He didn’t comment on that, but he gave me his card and told me to call him if I thought of anything else. Well, I didn't care to think of anything else, but I kept his card. I still have it. I still have the old Jag too, and thanks to my quick thinking, I still have my life. I saw recently where they were looking for more bodies of people killed by those creeps in the desert, and up in Devil’s Canyon where Sadie Glutz suggested we go.

Sandra Good is very beautiful in a traditional sense... but, I just can't get past the maniacal stare!!She never blinks her eyes.She's like a deer in headlights!I could NEVER fall asleep in the same room with that woman.There's CRAZY... and then, there's BONKERS!She's BONKERS!

But yeah... she's definitely very beautiful... if you can get by the rest of the package... which I can't.

She DEFINITELY gets the "BEST HYGIENE" AWARD!I'll agree with you 300% on that point.

You'd never know she lived a day at the ranch!

Her hair is always bouncy and shiny.She wears beautiful sun dresses.Southern hats... like Marliese! : )I heard she's the only one who refused to go barefoot... and insisted she would only have her baby at a hospital.Can anyone confirm those two?She definitely was the cleanest of the bunch, no doubt.

The pretty girls, to my eye:

SusanRuthSnakeLynnNancyKitty

The rest... just weren't my cup-o-tea.That's not to say they weren't good-looking.

Gypsy had a nice figure, and smile.She had some nice womanly curves.She wasn't too bad.

Think i read somewhere that even Charlie, and he wasn't exactly picky, found Sadie gross, something about he wouldn't go near her..found her lopsided breasts unattractive.

What was with those girls and their hair problem? susan had a full on moustache and then there's Pat. I must say, if i had a daughter covered in hair like a little monkey, i'd get her to an endocrinologist, pronto. WTH.

Hi Lynyrd...yessss Drugstore Cowboy is one of my favs for sure..William S Burroughs is sort of a hobby of mine & one of my biggest influences which is odd for some people to comprehend. I have gotten alot of flack about my Burroughs affections over the years from intellectuals/academics feminists etc etc..some people just will never get it.Spun was really good too!!!

I admit that Susan could look good once in awhile...during that naked devil stuff she was doing in San Francisco for example, her body was stunning...before she descended so far into neglect and disease, but her face had a good look and an ugly look, and her hair always looks so stringy and unhealthy in the old photos, unlike Sandra's, and Squeaky had good hair too. Hair is a good indicator of well being, and Susan's just looked like ongoing poor nutrition, poor health etc ...and probably the drugs... IMO.

I agree with you about Sandra being classically good looking, the most beautiful of the girls too...too bad she was wound so tight, and insanely scary.

>>Hi Marliese...at least I am not alone on the Sadie thing...its just so bizzare to me that anyone could find that attractive...and I have observed that its not just like 1 or 2 people who find her attractive but quite a few..

And yes the poor little beautiful Sandra so lovely and disturbed..actually very reminiscent of Catherine Deneuve's character in 'Repulsion'...now thats another fab movie...sorry Polanski haters but its an amazing movie.

>>>this is so true...I mean I find Hank the (former)lead singer of the band Turbonegro attractive so really I'm in no position to comment on who others find attractive...hahaa..have you seen that guy?? reality check..thanks

I am not going to lie I think alot of his songs are great and have you ever heard the Lemonheads version of 'Home Is Where You're Happy' its so good...

People like Dylan and Manson were sort of the first wave of punk rock..it was like they may not have had the best voices but they had something to say and so they said it and its that DIY ethic that I respond to.

For some reason, one of your comments (from several hours ago) was lost in the "spam" folder, for no apparent reason.

I just found it... retrieved it... and allowed it to post.It's pretty far back in the comments section at this point (because) comments post according to the time they were submitted)... so, I'm reposting it down here as well... so, folks will see it.Sorry for the inconvenience.It's just one of those occasional "blog glitches".My apologies.

Everyone... here's SBuch's Comment:

Hi Katie......Talk about it being dark and spooky at Cielo.

The only time I went up there was back in 1980.It was sometime after midnight when we turned onto Cielo, we passed the turn that leads up to the gate, so it took a minute before we found it.Being the midnight hour of course it was dark.......spooky too.I think the spooky part was do to how quiet it was.I'll never understand how nobody reported the gunshots that killed Steven Parent, nevermind the screams that followed.So quiet......spooky quiet.

If anyone has trouble seeing their comments post, at any point, for any reason... please let me know.

i think sick citys a pretty good tune as well. there was a few years after manson got out of jail his music was'nt half bad(lie and the 9-67 sessions) but the stuff hes recorded in prison doesnt move me for the most part.

Close to meLook at Your Game GirlSick CityHome is Where You're HappyAlways is Always Forever(Never Say Never to Always)*Ra-Hide Away*Get on Home(*I'm not sure if these two are technically Manson's, 'cuz they were recorded on the "Family Jams" album... but, I always assumed he wrote them)

Actually... I like the entire "Family Jams" album, minus a couple throw-aways...

I think "Close to me" is hands-down Manson's best solo performance... (from the commercial Manson music I've heard).But again... there's a LOT of Manson's music I haven't heard.When you get into the bootleg stuff, it's pretty much endless.

I agree with MattP, that Manson's best (and in my opinion, only noteworthy work), was definitely from the late 60's.That stuff was very good.Since then... I haven't heard anything that's grabbed me.

>>>Sbuch said: I think the spooky part was do to how quiet it was.I'll never understand how nobody reported the gunshots that killed Steven Parent, nevermind the screams that followed.So quiet......spooky quiet.>>>

Thanks Sbuch. I've never understood how no one heard the screams or gunshots either. The excuse is always that the sound echoes in the canyon, but I just don't understand how no one heard those screams. Someone screaming for their life is something you don't mistake.

>>>Sbuch said: I think the spooky part was do to how quiet it was.I'll never understand how nobody reported the gunshots that killed Steven Parent, nevermind the screams that followed.So quiet......spooky quiet.>>>

Thanks Sbuch. I've never understood how no one heard the screams or gunshots either. The excuse is always that the sound echoes in the canyon, but I just don't understand how no one heard those screams. Someone screaming for their life is something you don't mistake.

I believe the gunshots and screams were obscured by the sound of ice rattling in the cocktail shakers in the homes way down the canyon...

Also, Mrs. Kott, the next door neighbor...she actually heard the shots, but hearing nothing more after a minute, she and her husband go to bed.

I've posted this before, but I live in an area where it's rare, but not odd to hear gunshots occassionally and sometimes at late hours. Whenever I hear them I listen carefully for other sounds for quite a while until I am satisfied that no one is in any danger.

Hi guys. I don't buy it either that Garrettson didn't hear anything. He claims he thought that Parent was shooting off firecrackers. How dumb is that? Parent was leaving to try to pawn off that clock/radio on some other sap. Why would he stop to light firecrackers?

Okay, I guess I can kind of understand why, if someone heard 4 shots and nothing else for a while, they might just think it was a backfire or something, but the screams??? You can't mistake screams. Especially Garrettson. No way he didn't hear all that. He just hunkered down in the dark and hoped they didn't find him.

I read somewhere (can't remember where, Starship, St....help me out here) that in the Cielo Drive house, they were playing loud music, and that might explain why THEY didn't hear the shots. But then again, that doesn't make any sense, because the music wasn't playing when the cops got there. At least I don't think it was.

St. I did read that Garrettson said he was playing music (Mamas & Papas???) with headphones or something, but I also read somewhere that in the house, the volume knob on the stereo was on high. So if that's the case, then someone had to shut it off or unplug it before the killers left.

Now this is going to drive me crazy. I'm going to have to find where I read that. HA HA.

I can understand why Voytek didn't hear anything. He was crashed out on an MDA buzz. But the others were awake. Abigail was in that room with the windows right on the front yard. I can't imagine how she didn't hear that unless something drowned it out.

There possibly could have been music playing, but I don't think any of the accounts support it being so.

The sheet music on the piano was supposedly "Yuung Girls are Coming to the Canyon" by the Mamas and the Papas...a fact, if it indeed is one, which led to stories that that record was playing on the stereo and that it played over and over again, as some LP players were wont to do back in the day and that it was still going when the police arrived. But Mrs. Chapman doesn't mention it and I'm pretty sure the police statements are all about that it was very quiet when they arrived on scene.

Lynyrd.....I wondered what happened to that post. Thanks for digging it up.

When we were standing there at the Cielo gate, we felt the need to whisper......it was that quiet.The crack of gunshots must have been audible for some distance.The only thing I can think of is maybe Tex reached the gun into the car before firing......blunting the sound.

Friends... this is SBuch's second missing post:---------------------------------------------

>>>>"Lynyrd.....I wondered what happened to that post. Thanks for digging it up.

When we were standing there at the Cielo gate, we felt the need to whisper......it was that quiet.The crack of gunshots must have been audible for some distance.The only thing I can think of is maybe Tex reached the gun into the car before firing......blunting the sound.

Hi Sbuch! Hang in there, this must be some kinda glitch. Lynyrd will figure it out.

I hear a lot that Cielo Drive was very quiet. I don't think that Tex put the gun in the car, the wounds didn't reflect that close of range. And that was a big gun. It must have had a loud report. I don't think Parent's car was that far from the house. What was it from the gate to the house....100 yards or so???

i dont think we should take the years of charlies jibberish nonsensicle interviews as hime not knowing anything about the murders. let along his level of participation. It seems he made several admission to his participation in the Emmons book> Are those to be dicounted be charlie later dimissed them ?

i dont think we should take the years of charlies jibberish nonsensicle interviews as him not knowing anything about the murders. let along his level of participation. It seems he made several admissions to his participation in the Emmons book. Are those to be discounted because charlie later dimissed them ?

the killers said music was playing at the tate house. maybe when the record ended it turned it returned the needle to it's little stand or possibly manson, etc. turned it off. when the police arrived the next morning the music was definately off because they could hear the flies buzzing around the bodies. william garettson did say he was playing at a medium leve. the police did a test and said he couldn't hear the shooting and screams with the music at that level. last i heard about garettson he was in pretty bad shape lost both legs in a motorcycle accident and not well mentally. i don't he can say much of anything now about that time.

he did an interview with bill nelson for one of his horrible books and he was interviewed for the sharon tate true hollywood story which i'm sure is on yt somewhere in the late 90s. in the nelson book he told a story about getting picked up by hippies in a van on the day of the murders and getting a ride to cielo drive, they knew right where he lived and that he had seen the van before,inferring that they had something to do with the murders. maybe someone else who read the book can recall it better than me and having had some dealings with bill nelson i don't think it would be above him to make something up. but garretson at the time was married to a girl who believed she was the daughter of sharon tate(yes the baby sharon was carrying at the time of the murders) so you have to wonder how well his mind was put together. both interviews were in the late 90s i think.

Here is a clip from You Tube that at about 4:00 there is a tiny bit of the interview with Garretson where he's talking about some guy that picked him up hitchhiking that told him he shouldn't go back up there.

I don't know how much of what Garretson says that I believe. He admitted later that he did hear Abigail say "stop I'm already dead" or something like that. He never admitted that during his police questioning in 1969.

The car Steven Parent drove was his dad's 1966 AMC Rambler. The 1966 model was the first year the car was available with 4 on the floor standard (stick) transmission.After killing Parent, Watson put the car into nuetral and pushed it back up the driveway, then put the transmission into 2nd forward before proceeding to the house.

Or the unthinkable......just for conversation.What if the killers are lying about the order in which the murders took place.Has anyone thought maybe Garrettson and Parent witnessed the murders.Parent then running to his car to escape, in his haste backed into the fence and was killed before he made it down the drive.Not saying any of this happened, but what if?It would open a Pandora's Box of questions.

I got to thinking that if Parent was driving a stick, when he was on his way to the gate from the guest house, he was probably in 1st or 2nd gear. Then when Watson popped up out of nowhere, that he might have gotten scared and let his foot off the clutch, which would have made the car die. Either way, when he was shot and killed, he would have let up on the clutch and the car would have died.

No one mentions that Tex restarted the car. They say he pushed it.

If the car was in 2nd gear when it died, Tex would have had to depress the clutch to get it into neutral in order to push the car. I'm just trying to picture this. He would have had to move Parent's legs in order to depress the clutch. No one mentions any of that.

I like your "what if" situation, and it could have happened that way, only I don't think it did and here's why.

If Tex had started killing the Cielo Drive residents, by the time they started running out on the lawn, Parent and Garretson would have heard it. If Parent tried to escape while Tex was chasing down and killing Voytek and Abigail, I don't think he could have caught Parent.

Plus...wouldn't Garretson get in the car with him? Plus...didn't the gun jam when Tex was trying to shoot Frykowski, after he had shot Jay? The gun wouldn't work on Parent then.

I like playing "what if, maybe". It leads to maybe opening a new door to this case!

Hi Kimchi. Well I wrote all that for nothing if it's an automatic transmission. HA HA.

Okay I just found this from the first Cielo Drive Homocide Report, regarding Parent's car:

"An examination of the vehicle revealed that the lights were off; the hood was cool and engine off. The ignition switch was in the vertical, or off, position and the automatic gearshift lever indicated the car was in second gear."

Okay, as far as I know, whether the car is automatic or manual transmission, it has to be in neutral to push it. So did Tex put it back in 2nd gear??

The police report also says the parking brake wasn't on. If the car was automatic transmission, Tex could have shifted it into neutral and pushed it, then shifted it into 2nd gear so it wouldn't roll.

But...could Tex have pushed that car by himself? That car was made of solid steel, not like the fiberglass cars they spit out now. The only way he could have pushed it by himself was to push it downhill.

Well Kimchi, in order to consider the guy down the street that was booking, you'd have to consider the fact that the LaBiancas were killed because of his gambling.

I don't think that's the motive. Like we've said before, dead people don't pay you back. Why hire some goofy hippies to eviscerate somebody because they owe you money. And why kill Rosemary? She didn't owe them money.

If the syndicate really wanted Leno dead, they could have cut his brake lines, or just picked him off at the fruit stand. Didn't you see The Godfather?? HA HA

Hi Kimchi......I saw the same pictures.The reason I said the car had a standard transmission is because that's the way it reads in Sanders The Family.I don't have the updated copy.......mines from the 70's.It says Tex put the car into neutral, pushed it back up the drive then put it into 2nd forward.But like you said......no one ever mentions restarting the car and from the pictures taken at the scene it appears to have only two pedals.

Kimchi, I agree with you. Helter Skelter is definitely NOT the motive. That was just some bullshit that Charlie used as a "carrot before a donkey" to get them motivated. He didn't believe that there was going to be a race war any more than he believed in the tooth fairy.

So that eliminates one motive. And we know that there is a motive. The drugged-out hippies didn't know the motive, but Charlie did.

We just don't know what the motive was, because Charlie's not talking.

>>>Sbuch said: It says Tex put the car into neutral, pushed it back up the drive then put it into 2nd forward.>>>

I just don't think one person could push something that heavy "up" the drive. The only way he could have done that is if the car was still running when Parent was killed and he slipped it in neutral and pushed it up. Then turned the car off.

Let me throw some "food for thought" out there for all you people who think Charlie is an innocent little lamb who got railroaded.

Why would Patricia Krenwinkel, Leslie Van Houten, Susan Adkins & Charles Watson ALL say that Charlie was in total charge, that Charlie was preaching a race war, that Charlie ordered the murders, that Charlie told the girls to "go with Tex and do whatever Tex says", and that Charlie is now lying when he says he had nothing to do with the murders?

Why would they do that? They are all rotting in prison. What would they gain?

If Tex had been in charge and he was the one who decided to kill, why would the girls not say that in the 1990's interview? They never mentioned Tex being the one who was in charge. Only Charlie.

How is it a "get out of jail free" card? They're still in prison. Don't you think that if they knew someone OTHER than Charlie was responsible for the murders, that would have been a "get out of jail free" card?

>>>Just like Bruce Davis...>>>

What about Bruce Davis? He's just as guilty for the murder of Shea as anyone. And he says that Charlie ordered it.

>>>And just like Tex Watson, never once has he admitted his role in the Shea murder...If he was truly a changed person or remorseful, he would come clean with that...but he was never charged with that murder and he was the one that killed him...Period....>>>

No he's not. Shorty Shea was killed by Bruce, Clem, Charlie & Tex. If Tex doesn't want to talk about Shorty's murder, I can understand that. Why would it help him to talk about it.

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, why didn't the other defendants blame it all on Tex if Tex is the one who did it? Not one of them did. How is that a "get out of jail free" card?

The only one who went free is Clem, and that's because he made a deal to show them Shorty's body.

And Kimchi, you're ignoring my question. Did Harold True know Nader? If so when and how?

saladin is a common middle eastern name. true was in the peace corp. when the murders were committed. maybe he came across the name in his travels and liked it.if the women knew anything they would have said it by now in order to get out prison. they don't know anything. krenwinkel though believes she was under mind control and some of it came from manson and the rest came from the govt.

I know the women don't know anything about motive. In fact, I don't think any of them really knows about motive except for Charlie.

But if Tex had been in charge of the murders, they would have known that. Some people like to place all the blame on Tex, thereby claiming that Charlie is completely innocent, which just isn't the case.

None of the girls have ever indicated that Tex was in charge and that the murders were his idea. The only one they've tried to blame it on was Linda, and that didn't work. The jury didn't buy it.

Gypsy said years later, when she wasn't "under the influence" of Charlie anymore, that the only reason she said that it was all Linda's idea was because Charlie told her to.

Hi Katie.....You asked, Why put the car into 2nd, Why not put it in park.

That's what I'm saying. Standard Transmissions don't have a park geer........you just put it in geer, turn off the key, take your foot off the clutch, same as park, it aint going nowhere.All accounts say the car was found in second forward.In the crime scene pics only two pedals can be seen......but from the angle of the shot you can't see all the way to the left of the brake pedal.

FRIENDS

"Charlie Manson is a five foot seven schizophrenic, who if it weren't for the murder of Sharon Tate, would never be known or discussed. And I'm not saying he isn't funny and entertaining. I'm saying he's a dime a dozen criminal-class punk, who had the good fortune of running into some middle class pseudo-revolutionary white girls." -- Tom G

"The simple and undeniable truth, is that Charlie and the gang were/are the biggest idiots, morons and imbeciles on the planet." -- Leary7

"Them fucking fruitcakes could not pour piss out of a boot, with the bottom written on it."--Harold True