Granted, that there are some bigger owners who are more hands-on but the majority of owners, big or small, are business people who love the sport & are trying not to lose money. They therefore, try to use the most successful trainer, usually someone with a high win %.

Obviously, if the system for penalizing trainers in ineffective, the system must be changed by the licensing bodies. Make the penalties for positives much more severe - for everyone (no cherry-picking here, everyone!).

No "owner knowingly employs a crook" in any place of business, because we all figure the same thing - if a trainer is cheating this person, he's certainly going to be cheating me! It's just pure logic. Who's going to start buying horses, paying training bills, vet bills,... and use a trainer who wins 5%? The money will run out pretty quickly. And if an owner has to bear the responsibilities that come with watching the trainer's every move, then there will be no owners! The sport cannot win by holding owners responsible. Period.

So, you are saying that Engel is not complicit? He doesn't know that Rucker is a crook?

So, you are saying that Engel is not complicit? He doesn't know that Rucker is a crook?

I'm saying it is not Engel's responsibility, it is the state's responsibility. They're the ones who license Rucker & everyone else. Of course I agree that Engel "knows" Rucker's record & as I said previously, there are some owners who may be more hands on. But if the state continues to license Rucker or anyone else, you cannot blame an owner for wanting who he believes is the best.

I'm speaking of the majority of owners, which I was a part of and can tell you absolutely that if I was told by the state that I could be held liable for illegal substances found in my horse, I just wouldn't be an owner, period. Who would when it's something you don't control?

Again, I've said this before on this forum - most of you think the Ledfords are crooks. But my experiences with them would indicate the exact opposite. They were absolutely honest & trustworthy, never dodged me, be it for good or bad. And being 1,000 miles away, they had every opportunity to cheat me. So how do you know what Engel & Rucker's relationship is?

I'm saying it is not Engel's responsibility, it is the state's responsibility.

One of the problems in this country is nobody willing to take personal responsibility for their actions. I am saying that Engel is every bit as responsible as Rucker. I do agree that the State has fallen down on this as well, but IMHO that does not absolve Engel.

I'm speaking of the majority of owners, which I was a part of and can tell you absolutely that if I was told by the state that I could be held liable for illegal substances found in my horse, I just wouldn't be an owner, period. Who would when it's something you don't control?

I am an owner, and I choose trainers carefully. I am not interested in making money by cheating my fellow horseman, the bettors or my horses.

Again, I've said this before on this forum - most of you think the Ledfords are crooks. But my experiences with them would indicate the exact opposite. They were absolutely honest & trustworthy, never dodged me, be it for good or bad. And being 1,000 miles away, they had every opportunity to cheat me. So how do you know what Engel & Rucker's relationship is?

I don't doubt your word that you feel that you were treated fairly and not cheated by the Ledfords. Doesn't mean they aren't crooks. How would you feel if you had to race against them and they were taking money out of your pocket, as they did mine?

Don't know anything about the Engel/Rucker relationship other than Engel defended him during an IHHA meeting while he was president. In all fairness, I heard this from a board member and not first hand. Be that as it may, Rucker trains most of Engel's horses, so one may conclude they at least have an owner/trainer relationship.

You said earlier that the owners are the ones losing the most money - and I agree - then isn't it incumbent on us to try to clean this business up, rather than shifting the blame to the licensing bodies and proclaiming our own innocence?

I am an owner, and I choose trainers carefully. I am not interested in making money by cheating my fellow horseman, the bettors or my horses.

How would you feel if you had to race against them and they were taking money out of your pocket, as they did mine?

You said earlier that the owners are the ones losing the most money - and I agree - then isn't it incumbent on us to try to clean this business up, rather than shifting the blame to the licensing bodies and proclaiming our own innocence?

Okay, so you choose trainers "carefully". So do I. When I hooked up with The Ledfords there were no suspensions or positives pending. During the time that i had horses with them there were no suspensions or positives. Then the bomb was dropped. You think I wasn't blind-sided? Do you think I should have been held responsible?

And I did race against many other trainers, including Rucker of course, who had many positives while my horses had zero! I hope you don't think that I had the only "dirty" trainer, because I know many other trainers had positives while I was racing against them.

I'm all for taken on our own responsibilities - for me, it's my business & family, not my horses - that's the for the trainer. I don't believe that it is possible for "us" to clean up this business. Most of us have other jobs or businesses to run & do this as a hobby. That's why we pay taxes. It is not our responsibility but the responsibility of the states that we pay into. After they perform their investigations & make their decisions, we have to live with it, like it or not. That's what we agree to when we are licensed. As owners, we take on enormous financial risk. Our responsibilities are to be the cash cows. If we had to take on further (legal) risks that we can't control, we'd be out.

I'm not saying that you feel this way & maybe your situation is different. But I am not in the least hands-on, nor am I interested in being hands-on. My horses were always classified at the trainer's discretion, trained at the trainer's discretion & the meds were monitored and administered by vets.

Where there's money, there's cheating but without positive testing, it is very difficult to prove cheating & be fair about it.

I'm saying it is not Engel's responsibility, it is the state's responsibility. They're the ones who license Rucker & everyone else. Of course I agree that Engel "knows" Rucker's record & as I said previously, there are some owners who may be more hands on. But if the state continues to license Rucker or anyone else, you cannot blame an owner for wanting who he believes is the best.

I'm speaking of the majority of owners, which I was a part of and can tell you absolutely that if I was told by the state that I could be held liable for illegal substances found in my horse, I just wouldn't be an owner, period. Who would when it's something you don't control?

Again, I've said this before on this forum - most of you think the Ledfords are crooks. But my experiences with them would indicate the exact opposite. They were absolutely honest & trustworthy, never dodged me, be it for good or bad. And being 1,000 miles away, they had every opportunity to cheat me. So how do you know what Engel & Rucker's relationship is?

You don't.I do know that Marty Engel has never broken any of the rules under the jurisdiction of the state.

the rules aren't working....period. the business is spiraling out of control...period.

unless the rules are changed most owners won't even want to use this as a hobby anymore...because a hobby is suppose to be fun.

start suspending horses you'll see things change.

start fining owners you'll see things change.

DRASTIC TIMES CALL FOR DRASTIC MEASURES.

the rules in place DON'T WORK and most people in this business are HONEST and abide by the current rules. but, because maybe 20% of these trainers cheat it ruins the business for everyone concerned that are NOT associated with them. that means owners, trainers, grooms, fans, bettors etc, etc, etc.

anyone who loves this game knows today it is all about chemicals. if someone (generally speaking ) are sporting a .300 average or better training it is one of two things. THEY GOT THE JUICE or THEY THREW 2 MILLION DOLLARS AT THE BUSINESS to only make a half that.

and i might add most people abiding by the rules aren't happy with the direction the business is going. we use to be able to stand on our own 2 feet but, now we need slot revenue to keep this business alive. take the slot revenue away and see how many owners will stay in the business getting their head kicked in by a chemical trainer.

TOO MANY CHEMICALS...TOO MANY LAWYERS...

change the rules or it will be like a person who has cancer. it will be a matter of time. PERIOD

Maybe its time to require trainers to obtain a bond to operate, like contractors, auto dealers, and others who expose the public (and state) to risk?

If trainers had to obtain say, a $100,000 bond, the flakes would not qualify, and as soon as a good one had a positive, he would either be refused his annual bond renewal, pay a very high premium (if any insurance co. would even consider binding the risk any longer)... or be required to post his own 100K in trust, if he wanted to continue in the business of training for the public.

The good people would be bondable, and the others............oh well.....

I'm just talking here nothing more not fighting over any thing " BUT " Maybe its time trainers and Owners took responsibility like every one else in the world dose for there business and got the all the insurance that's needed for every one who works for them and then and only then no one would have to worry about any of this. " Grooms code with trainers on the back side " If your worker gets hurt and reports it so they can get well or fix a broken bone that groom or persons are black balled on the back side from getting a job. " Fact " But because Trainers take most of the horse's on "Deals " they don't have the money to get the right insurance and the owner says hey its up to you. I say to the owner or any one else F/U take care of those who took care of you and made you the money. That's the grooms and all your workers. P.s With out them you have no business..

You don't.I do know that Marty Engel has never broken any of the rules under the jurisdiction of the state.

Maybe not, but Rucker sure has, over and over again. Engel continues to employ him. In my eyes he is just as guilty. The only reason he hasn't broken any rules is because rules for owners (enablers) don't exist.

There are rules and then there are morals, which hold us to a higher standard. Can you justify his moral responsibility?

Engel is supposedly a hotshot accountant. Are you saying he is in the dark and can't see what's going on?

Okay, so you choose trainers "carefully". So do I. When I hooked up with The Ledfords there were no suspensions or positives pending. During the time that i had horses with them there were no suspensions or positives. Then the bomb was dropped. You think I wasn't blind-sided? Do you think I should have been held responsible?

I don't choose a trainer based on his batting average, but instead on whose philosophy is similar to mine. I believe you were blind-sided, but didn't his performance of dropping a life mark 3 or 4 seconds in a week give you a hint? If you looked at his batting average only, then yes I think you share some responsibility because it really shouldn't have caught you by surprise.

It's a tough issue. But without owner responsibility in some capacity there will only be the cheaters and the losers, and kill this business.

I am more hands on than you are. I know my horses, their personalities, attitudes, what they wear etc and I always keep their welfare in mind. I want them to have a full life after racing, not dropping dead on the track when they sludge from EPO or drown from a tubing gone bad, or so broken down that they go to the killers.

I do have a business and this is a hobby, but I wouldn't have fun if I felt like I left my morals at the door.

I'm not trying to sound "holier than thou", because I'm sure you are a person of character, as are most on this forum. I am saying that we as owners have to share in the responsibility or somehow drive the engine that begins the clean-up.

the rules aren't working....period. the business is spiraling out of control...period.

unless the rules are changed most owners won't even want to use this as a hobby anymore...because a hobby is suppose to be fun.

start suspending horses you'll see things change.

start fining owners you'll see things change.

DRASTIC TIMES CALL FOR DRASTIC MEASURES.

the rules in place DON'T WORK and most people in this business are HONEST and abide by the current rules. but, because maybe 20% of these trainers cheat it ruins the business for everyone concerned that are NOT associated with them. that means owners, trainers, grooms, fans, bettors etc, etc, etc.

anyone who loves this game knows today it is all about chemicals. if someone (generally speaking ) are sporting a .300 average or better training it is one of two things. THEY GOT THE JUICE or THEY THREW 2 MILLION DOLLARS AT THE BUSINESS to only make a half that.

and i might add most people abiding by the rules aren't happy with the direction the business is going. we use to be able to stand on our own 2 feet but, now we need slot revenue to keep this business alive. take the slot revenue away and see how many owners will stay in the business getting their head kicked in by a chemical trainer.

TOO MANY CHEMICALS...TOO MANY LAWYERS...

change the rules or it will be like a person who has cancer. it will be a matter of time. PERIOD

Maybe its time to require trainers to obtain a bond to operate, like contractors, auto dealers, and others who expose the public (and state) to risk?

If trainers had to obtain say, a $100,000 bond, the flakes would not qualify, and as soon as a good one had a positive, he would either be refused his annual bond renewal, pay a very high premium (if any insurance co. would even consider binding the risk any longer)... or be required to post his own 100K in trust, if he wanted to continue in the business of training for the public.

The good people would be bondable, and the others............oh well.....

Im not at all trying to defend any bad people that may be owners in the game, but I am trying to picture someone bringing a criminal charge against a person who entrusted his animal to a trainer, and is paying the trainer a bill/

Just bear down on the damn trainers who cheat, and their owners will have to go elsewhere. 5 year suspensions for 1st time class 1 positives. Period. FIVE YEARS, ruled off all tracks in N. America. And require them to be bonded for a huge amount like $250,000 if they want to come back, so if they screw up again, its their expense, not the taxpayer, fan, the fellow horsemen.... or the sport itself.

I'm just talking here nothing more not fighting over any thing " BUT " Maybe its time trainers and Owners took responsibility like every one else in the world dose for there business and got the all the insurance that's needed for every one who works for them and then and only then no one would have to worry about any of this. " Grooms code with trainers on the back side " If your worker gets hurt and reports it so they can get well or fix a broken bone that groom or persons are black balled on the back side from getting a job. " Fact " But because Trainers take most of the horse's on "Deals " they don't have the money to get the right insurance and the owner says hey its up to you. I say to the owner or any one else F/U take care of those who took care of you and made you the money. That's the grooms and all your workers. P.s With out them you have no business..

Obviously you have a bug up your ass about some trainer who you say tried to screw you in a workers compensation case, which is all well and good, but not exactly what everyone else is talking about here...the much broader issue of how to clean up the business.

If you call doing the right thing a bug ya i guess i do what ya going to do about it wise ass. You going to troll this post also ? you no what im going to call jannie if your types are the kind she wants here ill leave. no bigy .

If you call doing the right thing a bug ya i guess i do what ya going to do about it wise ass. You going to troll this post also ? you no what im going to call jannie if your types are the kind she wants here ill leave. no bigy .

You both bring up good points and from both spectrums one hands on and one hands off.I have done both and took a bath being hands off !!

I think owner responsibilty has to be done case by case as you do have owners several hundred miles away and owners who are hands off and let the trainers handle everything but there are also your moral standards to consider especially if you know your trainer has used illegal drugs in the past. JMO

Tsunami In my life a poster means nothing to me, what dose it mean if i guy post allot on a web site ? Take that chit to my face ill smack him like he is a elite azz hole, Means nothing to me when some one is just being mean. This internet is kool but its not my life, I have never heard of some one being a elite Poster sounds funny . Im sorry you talking to me im a elite Poster LOL LOL LOL thats funny as chit lol

Tsunami In my life a poster means nothing to me, what dose it mean if i guy post allot on a web site ? Take that chit to my face ill smack him like he is a elite azz hole, Means nothing to me when some one is just being mean. This internet is kool but its not my life, I have never heard of some one being a elite Poster sounds funny . Im sorry you talking to me im a elite Poster LOL LOL LOL thats funny as chit lol

MM,You have only been here a short while, and while you may have much to offer this forum, NJ has been here for years and earned our respect not only as a poster, but as a person.

Nothing more in life i would like more then to no him as a person LOL i have been here longer then you lol Respect lol see how dumb that sounded lol I am a Hero member LOL LOL to funny lol right Phil ? LOL