I find it quite interesting how different the rules are for you guys. For us the dog should automatically sit when a bird is flushed after a point. If not you will be penalised in a field trial. We are however not allowed to give the sit command in the FT, as the dog should do it automatically. The dog must then retrieve the shot bird on command. We never use the whoa command. Also e collars are not at all allowed and it seems as if you are allowed to use them.

It is interesting to know that there are differences.

So let me correct my initial post.

In South Africa the most important command is the sit command as this is how we train our dogs and what is expected at our field trials.

For American field trials if your dog sits after the point, sits on a stop to flush, or while backing you will take everyone's breath away (in a bad way) . Although you won't have to pick up your dog you might as well.

We can not use e-collars during a field trial. Also depending on the circumstances you can not give your dogs certain commands or caution the dog

It is not easy !Basic training with a snack on a young dog is not to difficult, I figure in 7 months you got to win on the sit command at any distance. All you have to teach most hunting breeds is discipline and be able to stop them, the hunt they born with !

By spending 10–15min a day and not over train you will have a hunting buddy for many years to come.Keep it short and exciting when they young rather praise rather than punish possitive reinforcement works far better a friend will help you far easier than the enemy.

For American field trials if your dog sits after the point, sits on a stop to flush, or while backing you will take everyone's breath away (in a bad way) . Although you won't have to pick up your dog you might as well.

We can not use e-collars during a field trial. Also depending on the circumstances you can not give your dogs certain commands or caution the dog

We are all novice handlers that train on trial and error in SA, the sit command is basic and this way you can stop your young dogs when furr comes into play(rabbit&buck) without a e collar. They only sit/stop if they run into birds when scenting is bad and they fly up without being pointed. This breed hunts well handling them is the final test for any handler the kind of dog and style is bred, that is why it is importend to choose right when buying a dog.

Pity trials with German Shorthaires are only bound to the country you live in, English pointers have a Championship level were all dogs that qualify can compete from all over the world.

I have learned that when you go to pick up your dog from your trainer (if you use one), you may find that your dog might do everything perfect for your trainer,,,but that won't necessarily be true when you get your dog out to work for you. I have had to let my dogs know that i too know how to work the EC. It is hard to do your own training if you dont have access to birds and land. I have since joined a pheasant club, where i can go to buy birds (quail) and work my dogs anytime i want to. It has helped tremendously.Glenn

Birddawg wrote:I have learned that when you go to pick up your dog from your trainer (if you use one), you may find that your dog might do everything perfect for your trainer,,,but that won't necessarily be true when you get your dog out to work for you. I have had to let my dogs know that i too know how to work the EC. It is hard to do your own training if you dont have access to birds and land. I have since joined a pheasant club, where i can go to buy birds (quail) and work my dogs anytime i want to. It has helped tremendously.Glenn

This is why it is important that YOU also participate in the training. While it may not be practical for those who send their dogs great distances to a trainer, it will certainly work out better for all concerned if you start training with your dog under the trainer's guidance ASAP. Even if it means every other weekend or something similar, you'll wind up learning as much as the dog. Plus you will both know & understand the trainer's methodology so that when the dog comes home you can build on that foundation.

I remember these words I was given by the guy we bought our first bird dog from. We were rookies and the dog was a very good 6-year old hunter (still is). He said "If she's not hunting right, then you're doing something wrong." Sometimes you have to trust your dog.

Words of dog training wisdom....#1 "Shut up" or "keep quiet" in a more polite expression.#2 Trust#3 Patience and keep it fun#4 Don't reward bad behavior#5 Make sure the dog understands any discipline#6 Let the dog drive the progression rather than any age#7 Watch Internet advice

I hunted with a some friends and one friend of mine who has a Gsp that does not hold point. He breaks faster than a union worker at 10:00. The rest of the day everyones dogs broke on every bird. My advise, if you hunt with someone whos dog isnt trained. leave, or leave your dog in the truck.

yogi wrote:I hunted with a some friends and one friend of mine who has a Gsp that does not hold point. He breaks faster than a union worker at 10:00. The rest of the day everyones dogs broke on every bird. My advise, if you hunt with someone whos dog isnt trained. leave, or leave your dog in the truck.

Think ahead of what might go wrong and be prepared for it. Having the dog ALWAYS wearing the expensive electronics can prevent disasters. A delayed chase, ONCE THE DOG KNOWS IT IS A NO NO, is a good time to reach out with some Ben Franklin juice, or as the wife says, A T & T calling, pay attention. If in doubt, don't do it!!!!!

When training and it is one of those days when you just wish somebody would do something correct, just pack up the gear. Give each dog a scratch behind the ear and a little TLC, load them up and GO HOME. They have not intentionally done anything wrong. We have no right to punish and they have not done anything to deserve punishment. We have never liked having our behinds kicked just because someone in charge woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Think before acting. It is not how you intend it to be, but how the dog perceives it to be. Was breaking a friends bitch and all was going well until: she started blinking birds, going past 50 ft or yds, doing a 180 and racing back to bump and chase. The first time it happened I was "what the H". Started watching a lot closer, saw the blink (just a quick turn of the head and a dropped shoulder ever so slight), called her to me, loved her up big time, snapped a lead on and took her back to the chain gang. After three days of this she was staunch as a post and never blinked again in her life. No e-collar correction, no yelling, no obvious correction at all. Just a time out and ignored all the protest while working other dogs. I could not discern any advantage to me with having an out and out confrontation with this very stubborn girl. She figured out it was in her best interest to play the game by my rules. She got her Senior Hunter in 5 attempts and if her retrieves were better would have had a Masters.

Grant, I do not know if you are still on this email thread, but if you are not and there is someone coming to dog training for the first time or even with some expeience, the advice on this thread is outstanding. Read it, and if you do not understand write and ask a question. Here are three items that are worth repeating:1. When starting out with a dog in Junior Hunter trust your dog. The very first bit of advice I recieved from a judge, "Son, trust your dog it knows more than you do!"2. Patience has been written all over his email thread, yet it repeatedly is violated. If you find yourself annoyed that your dog is not performing they way it should, the way it always did before, or it is being ornary - QUIT and leave the field for another day. Do not come back and try again the same day because you will still be anxious! I would venture to say almost 80% of all male handlers have this problem, so it is probably you that I am addressing! 3. George Hickox once said, the greatest tool for a dog handler at any level is DUCK TAPE. This also has been mentioned here a number of times, but I can not tell you the number of AKC or NAVHDA handlers that talk too much in the field. Keep your mouth shut unless asked a question in any test! 4. And e-collars. As in sports, If an athlete makes a mistake trying its best, do you punish or coach? However, If there is a clear indication of an unwillingness to listen or follow directions - I do not turn up the juice - I will never punish!!! I return to basics and repeat the drill and instructions until the sequence is learned. A good trainer only uses the e-collar at a low enough level to reinforce what is to be learned, and Never Ever as a tool to punish. Like the drills many of you experienced in high school or college sports, they were never fun and some were worse than that, but all were necessary. Thornapple

Deer Hunter wrote: Never punish your dog when he finally decides to come to you.

A couple weeks ago my dog brought me a chukar.

I had kicked up the planted bird and it flew a short distance into the woods. My dog remained steady while I fired a blank (I'm in the process of breaking her). I called her off and directed her to hunt the field we were working, which she did for about 50 yards before cutting right into the woods, round to my right, tracked the running bird out of sight for several minutes and delivered it to me. She was a bad dog, she did what I told her not to, she knew it, but I accepted the bird with a "good girl".

What else could I do?

Congratulations! You cannot possibly punish a dog that delivers a bird to your hand! I'm a total newb at this and even I'm not that dumb! This is exactly how my first bird dog, a Springer, trained me!

yogi wrote:I hunted with a some friends and one friend of mine who has a Gsp that does not hold point. He breaks faster than a union worker at 10:00. The rest of the day everyones dogs broke on every bird. My advise, if you hunt with someone whos dog isnt trained. leave, or leave your dog in the truck.

Why do you think one dog breaking (not staying staunch) has an effect on another? I say neither is trained. Short of a landmine going off, my dogs are expected to hold point no matter what happens around them, no matter why a bird flushes. Don't let the actions of another dog be an excuse for your dog's lack of manners. Near the end of their training I always run them with an untrained dog. You all need higher standards.

Oh, and I don't worry about shooting unpointed birds for the same reasons.

5- Quality dog work is not between you and your dog. It's between your dog and the bird.

6- Let your dog learn to manage the bird.

7- Instead of trying to get your dog to point, allow him to learnhe can't catch the bird. Staunch, stylish pointing will follownaturally.

8- Don't teach whoa around birds. Whoa has nothing to do withbirds.

9- When working birds, your dog has not made a mistake until he puts a bird in the air.

10- The dog must know what the command means before he can be corrected for mistakes.

11- An electric collar is not used to teach a dog to perform acommand. It is used when the dog has a complete understanding of the command and chooses not to do it. An electric collar is for reinforcement only.

That was an older version. Here is the updated version from my website:

1. Dog training is dog psychology. Learn to understand your dog. Try to see everything from his point of view.

2. Dogs don’t see things in terms of “packs” or “leaders”. Any social structure they display is related to hunting strategies. You want your dog to defer to you because through experience, he sees you not as a “pack leader” but as the most successful hunter.

3. Stop unnecessary talking. Take the time to learn to handle your dog.

4. Dogs are highly motivated to please themselves. A dog becomes cooperative and respectful when he realizes that you are in control of something he wants (a bird in his mouth).

5. When learning to hunt and handle, dogs don’t make mistakes, they try options. In order to learn what works, they need the opportunity to try options that don’t. It’s how the predator mind is wired.

6. Let your dog learn to manage the bird. He gets his cues from the bird, we just reinforce what the bird tells him.

7. Quality dog work is not between you and your dog. It’s between your dog and the bird.

8. Instead of trying to get your dog to point, allow him to learn he can’t catch the bird. That he needs you to kill it for him. Staunch, stylish pointing will follow naturally.

12. A finished dog understands that a bird in the air (stready to wing), a gunshot (steady to shot), the sight of a pointing dog (honoring/backing), a flushing bird (steady to flush) and a bird falling (steady to fall) all mean stop and wait for me.

13. Once your dog understands the command, give the command once and always use a release command.

14. Never give a command you can’t or won’t enforce.

15. When it comes to dog training, timing and consistency are most important.

16. Learn to read your dog.

17. Be patient and be sure the dog understand what you want before assuming he is refusing.

18. If you ignore or don’t correct for an unwanted behavior, you are agreeing with and encouraging that behavior.

Rule #1: Have Fun!Remind yourself how fortunate you are to have the chance to be in the field with your pup. Then, observe and appreciate being able to work with your dog to witness the natural ability they possess. Remember too, that we learn more from our failures than our successes, while dogs seem to learn just the opposite.

For American field trials if your dog sits after the point, sits on a stop to flush, or while backing you will take everyone's breath away (in a bad way) . Although you won't have to pick up your dog you might as well.

We can not use e-collars during a field trial. Also depending on the circumstances you can not give your dogs certain commands or caution the dog

I don't think it is a geographical difference. It is the pointing game vs flushing / retrieving game. I know the Huntsmith group (Delmar, Rick and Ronnie) teach the "sit still" command for the F&R's

I don't know if it was said...but never get angry with your dog...one second or two can cause you to go backwards in training big time. Our dogs are with us and it is up to us to be fair in teaching them.

New to this great site and have been out of the doggie games for about 5 years (while going back to school). Just jumped back into it with a young little springer and having a lot of fun.

This is a long thread - but wanted to offer my two yen. A few pieces of advice that come to mind: (1) train for momentum and style (confidence). Control and then precision will arrive in time through attrition. (2) Seek to communicate and understand your dog at all times - focus on this. Teaching requires communication (both ways).

Disclaimer: neither of these two adages are my own. It's just these two principles have gotten my out of quite a few training jams.

Two of my own:1) "When in doubt, do not shout." Dogs can learn from mistakes a lot faster if you let the logic of the lesson sink in. Too many people need to hear themselves when dog training.Try reading a complex manual when someone is yammerin' in your ear!2) "Sometimes I'm the teacher. Sometimes I'm the student." Even after all of these years, you'd be surprised what you can learn from any given dog, IF you are perceptive.

If there's a good deal on a used remote thrower in good condition don't hesitate buy it. Lesson learned the hard way and now it will probably be a new one when I'm ready for about $125 more than I could have gotten one. Oh well

If you want to make a lot of money, hang with those that have lots of money. If you want to learn to train well, learn from those that have a rich history (and just not a 1 hit wonder) of well-trained dogs or successful competitors (assuming they are willing to share). Lastly, keep in mind that the definition of a "brag dog" can vary immensely - almost as much as someone's definition of a finished dog.