Apple’s record profits built on grinding employees into dust – then blowing them up

After unveiling profits that smashed expectations and broke revenue records, it’s been a big week for Apple, but a recent investigative report brings the company’s rosy report crashing back to earth. After a string of highly publicized suicides at Foxconn in 2009, Apple pledged to clean up its act and tighten policies on worker health and quality of life. The company’s decision to release its list of suppliers after years of stonewalling is a positive step towards this goal, but evidence shows there’s a long way to go.

Apple is legendary for demanding extraordinary levels of control. On several occasions, Steve Jobs either changed announcement plans at the last moment, canceled deals, or refused to deal with press publications that disrupted his carefully laid plans for a product demonstration or unveiling. The company requires absolute transparency from companies like Foxconn, carefully scrutinizing their manufacturing and employee costs — then dictates to the company what margin they’ll be allowed to maintain.

“The only way you make money working for Apple is figuring out how to do things more efficiently or cheaper,” an executive at one company that helped bring the iPad to market told the New York Times. “And then they’ll come back the next year, and force a 10 percent price cut.”

Aluminium dust is extremely explosive – this image is from 2007, when a Chinese truck carrying it ignited

The Foxconn suicides from several years ago may have made national headlines in the US, but they aren’t the only problem. Twice this year, iPad polishing facilities at Foxconn have exploded due to buildups of aluminium dust. One dust explosion at a plant is a regrettable accident; two within six months is evidence of a manufacturer that’s disregarding well-known safety procedures. Foxconn isn’t the only manufacturer at fault — in 2010, workers at Wintek went on strike after more than 100 of them began showing signs of n-hexane poisoning. The toxic chemical was used to clean iPhone screens because it has an evaporation rate three times faster than isopropyl alcohol.

Each time such events occur, Apple issues a report claiming to have investigated the incident and resolved the problem. The problem with such after-the-fact resolutions is that they clash with the company’s ironclad control over every aspect of manufacturing. Dell might not notice if a supplier changed the chemical it used to clean its displays, but you can bet someone at Apple signed off on that decision, which means they share some degree of prior responsibility for the welfare of the workers in question.

A story from the NYT on why Apple products can’t be manufactured in the US anymore sheds some light on how the company views its manufacturing partners. An unnamed former executive described how Chinese manufacturers reacted when Apple issued a last-minute redesign on the iPhone’s screen.

“New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight. A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

“The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”

The implication of the quote is that such manufacturing jobs have gone overseas because Americans don’t want to work that hard. Take a moment and think about the deeper implications of the situation. Imagine an employer that can wake you at midnight after a full day of work and pull you in for a 12 hour shift. Note that the situation — a last minute product change — virtually guarantees that it won’t be your only 12 hour shift that week; it’s on top of the 72+ hours you regularly work. Apple officially requires Chinese suppliers to restrict workers to 60 hours a week, paystub checks by investigative journalists reveal this is generally ignored, with late workers forced to write confession letters or copy quotations.

Your reward for all that hard work? Aluminium dust and n-hexane poisoning. You can almost hear Apple executives chortling in the background “They’re just like little robots!”

Except they aren’t.

If Apple enforced its employee treatment agreements with the same tenacity as its product controls, these sorts of issues wouldn’t exist — indeed, they would’ve been stopped before they started. Apple reported $46.33 billion in revenue two days ago, including $13.06B in net profits. The company can afford to loosen to purse strings a little and allow suppliers higher margins — especially if it mandates that the additional funds are invested in worker safety.

Tagged In

Why do you think Human Resources is called that? Because people aren’t considered people, they are considered resources.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1223563048 Angel Ham

That’s the hipster culture: Save the whales, save the trees but the humans? They must suffer to satisfy my selfish needs.

http://profiles.google.com/khimera2000 Jonathan Freeman

And that’s the biggest reason why I don’t like apple, there designers might push the boarders on the user experience, but Its not worth it to invest in a company that has bad first runs, treats all there partners like ! #$ and tells you what you can and can not do with your own hardware.

Anonymous

I’m sick of the “Journalist” mentality today. They all think that their opinion matters as much as the facts they purport to convey. Bias and slant are one thing, but the shear hubris…it’s astounding.

“The company can afford to loosen to purse strings a little and allow suppliers higher margins — especially if it mandates that the additional funds are invested in worker safety.” This statement is idiotic grandstanding. How about an old fashioned, “In the opinion of this reporter,” preamble? Ah, the difference between a Reporter and a Journalist.
A more appropriate statement (more in line with the slant of the article I should say) would be, “In my opinion, Apple, it’s suppliers and their workers would be better served by losing some profits and using higher cost suppliers – especially if it mandates that the additional funds are invested in worker safety.”

Notice how I still keep the blame on Apple for Chinese labor practices (as per the article slant) while at the same time correctly identifying the proper solution that is within Apple’s control. Writing an article this way is more honest. Think you can give it a try?

Joel Hruska

“Writing an article this way is more honest. Think you can give it a try?”

Writing an article that way is more *objective* (honesty has little to do with the points you’ve raised). As far as objectivity is concerned. you’re absolutely right. Objectivity is something I take very seriously. The fact that people can’t be perfectly objective (including journalists) is no reason not to strive to be as objective as possible, particularly in complicated situations.

In this case, I was not objective. Insomuch as that’s a function of journalism, your criticism is valid. But so is my statement. What does Apple control? Everything — and that’s the point. If you read the full NYT article, it discusses the degree to which Apple micromanages every stage of product development. This is no more or less than an extension of Jobs’ approach to product design and customer experience, except in this case, there are people suffering as a result rather than end-users being frustrated by a sub-par experience.

I’m not naive enough to think that Apple should just give suppliers more money or trust that in doing so, they’d invest it back into safety and equipment — but if Apple allowed higher margins, specifically mandated that the money be used to improve employee conditions, *and* exercised the same level of oversight on said work environments that it does on making sure it gets all the flash memory it needs, you can bet the situation would be different.

But you’re right. Those last few sentences aren’t very objective. I still stand by them.

Anonymous

I appreciate your willingness to recognize your statements (I would go so far as to say the majority of your article) is not objective. I use the word “honest” because clearly delineating the portions of your writing between fact an opinion is what I was trying to demonstrate. Objectivity is a different concept. (I’m not trying to be a jerk right now, I’m truly trying to make you understand) Objectivity is presenting facts in an unbiased way. Not attempting to lead to a conclusion in any way. That is what “Reporting” is supposed to be. Biased Reporting is telling only a portion of known facts both consciously or subconsciously.

Today, Journalism is mixing Biased Reporting and Opinion and calling it “Analysis.” While I agree that a reporter that spends time researching something is generally better informed than the reader he/she writes for, their opinion is NOT as valid as the experts and insiders they may quote as a source. By mixing the opinion and the facts together confuses the reader into believing the writer carries the same prestige. This is dishonest.

I too am unhappy about the state of Chinese labor practices and the willingness of everyone to exploit that situation to earn money. I’m sorry it was your article that made me snap. God knows you are not the only purveyor of opinion and sensationalism disguised as reporting.

My challenge still stands though. Honesty. Do you think you can give it a try?

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7QOBZ26TQDSDXR4AR4H7LTE2TI John

I cant stand people that don’t pay for material and still find a way to complain. Why don’t you send this journalist your money so you have the right to complain! Plus, I care about opinions because I like to know where journalist and the companies they work for stand. Also, i don’t find the article lacking in facts as much as you say. Go troll somewhere else ilover.

http://www.mrseb.co.uk Sebastian Anthony

*cheers*

Anonymous

Whether you can stand me or not, Joel and Seb get paid by someone to write because you and I come to this site and read the articles posted. If I don’t like the writing and don’t come to the site anymore that’s one less reason for these guys to have a job. I’m not trying to inflate my importance, but don’t pretend the writers are altruistically writing articles for Extremetech and I should just be grateful for what they provide. Your like of articles written in this style is just as valid as my dislike. I don’t begrudge you proclaiming what you think, so try to extend me the same courtesy.

http://www.mrseb.co.uk Sebastian Anthony

You are more than welcome to express your dislike. The problem is, you have obviously now read a few stories on ET, and so you _know_ that this is the format/style that ET uses.

I’m not going to get into a discussion about ET’s editorial direction in the comments, but it should be fairly obvious — if you’ve read through our stories, which you have — that we don’t aim for 100% objectivity.

I appreciate the concern, though — and thanks for taking the time to write such extensive commentary. If ET isn’t the site for you, so be it. I hope you can find a site/publication that caters to your needs.

Joel Hruska

Professor,

The problem with your challenge is that agreeing to it presupposes that I perceive my own story as problematical. I don’t. I agree that there’s a bias to it, but the parts of that bias I contribute *are* backed up by my own expertise.

I cannot personally verify the situation at Foxconn, which is where I rely on the writings of the NYT. I *can* verify the degree to which Apple seeks to control product coverage, leaks, and information about all aspects of its products, from manufacturing to pre-launch data.

The frustration you read in my own words is driven by the fact that Apple is uniquely positioned to make a stand for real change on these issues. Doing so would not require the creation of an unwieldy coalition of separate companies nor rely on appealing to a neutral labor relations board or Chinese government entity.

I agree strongly with your points on objectivity — so much so, that I have no problem admitting that this isn’t a particularly objective piece.

If you think this story should’ve been marked as an Op/Ed, I don’t necessarily disagree, but there’s no policy in place for doing so at the moment. (If you think there should be, by all means, say so).

Anonymous

“The problem with your challenge is that agreeing to it presupposes that I perceive my own story as problematical. I don’t. I agree that there’s a bias to it, but the parts of that bias I contribute *are* backed up by my own expertise. “

You are self deluded. You have no expertise in anything but what you actively take part in. I HIGHLY doubt you have ever made a direct effort to contact official Apple anyone on any subject. Your experience in Apple’s control over product coverage and leaks is COMPLETELY second or third hand. You have NO experience with Apple (or I would venture to say ANYONES) labor or supplier relations and contracts. You are like a teenager who thinks he knows everything or a college student who thinks of himself as enlightened because he took a course on something.

Listen, this is simple. Actually READ the articles you reference from the NYT. They are INCREDIBLY well written. Notice the writers don’t mix opinion with the facts they report. Something is always attributed to a source. Nothing is the writers opinion. These are real writers, reporting the news.

Your article starts with a sensational and patently false headline. There is no way blowing up employees improves profits. I’m quite certain it creates losses, not profits. Also the NYT report is on Foxconn employees, NOT Apple employees.

Also your article states, “Your reward for all that hard work? Aluminium dust and n-hexane poisoning. You can almost hear Apple executives chortling in the background ‘They’re just like little robots!'” No one was “rewarded” with those things. You make light of tragic industrial accidents that NO ONE wanted to happen. Then you plant the notion that perhaps Apple executives did wish it for their macabre amusement!

You may think these distinctions superfluous and your exaggerations harmless and routine, but that is because you haven’t the professional integrity to understand how incredibly important informing the public is or how to do it properly.

Joel Hruska

You know, for one brief, shining moment I thought we were going to have a civilized discussion on ethics, responsibility, and the purpose of journalism. A discussion where the individuals involved could state their perspectives and agree to disagree.

Nope!

Anonymous

QFT – Joel Hruska
“You know, for one brief, shining moment I
thought we were going to have a civilized discussion on ethics, responsibility,
and the purpose of journalism. A discussion where the individuals involved
could state their perspectives and agree to disagree.

Nope! “

I apologize for some of my hyperbole, but I hope it illustrates to you the inappropriateness of such in professional writing. When you make unsubstantiated, unsupported, sensational statements it is damaging to the writer, the topic and the reader.

Before writing my last post, I took the time to read the relevant ( and a couple not so relevant) NYT articles, and related articles. I then read some of your other articles on this site and others. I see the same kind of writing in your other articles as this one. You pose as an authority in each. I don’t know if it is just an editorial decision to have you write in this way, whether those articles are just the only ones worth publishing or if you embrace this style of “journalism”. I trust I have made it clear, that I for one, don’t care for it.

I hope you as a writer try Reporting instead of providing sensational “analysis”. I hope Extremetech divides their articles into news and editorial so that opinions can be expressed and identified as what they are. Finally I hope conditions improve for impoverished and abused people everywhere, employed by Apple or not.

Joel Hruska

You are conflating a perceived lack of objectivity with a lack of information. I’ve already admitted to the former, and while objectivity is important, this is scarcely the only less-than-perfectly objective story I’ve ever written.

Your second accusation, which you’ve made vituperatively and at some length, is that I have no idea what I’m talking about, have done no research, contacted no companies, and have no experience. The first issue falls under the category of constructive criticism and I’m more than happy to discuss it, in public, as it relates to my own work.

The second is just rude.

Anonymous

“You are conflating a perceived lack of objectivity
with a lack of information. I’ve already admitted to the former, and while
objectivity is important, this is scarcely the only less-than-perfectly
objective story I’ve ever written. “

AGAIN you are not getting the point. Objectivity and honesty are two separate
subjects. I am NOT trying to conflate
them. My original observation was that
by writing the story as if it were news instead of clearly declaring it an
editorial was disingenuous (not honest).
You confused the idea with objectivity and I corrected you with
definitions.
“Objectivity is presenting facts in an unbiased
way. Not attempting to lead to a conclusion in any way.”
Next I explained the “dishonesty” in
Journalism. -By mixing opinion and facts
together the writer confuses the reader into believing the writer carries the
same prestige as the facts source(s).

What I suggested was to separate reporting
of facts from a writers opinion by clearly declaring it as such. “In my opinion Apple executives are as
responsible for the deaths of the Foxconn employees as the supervisors and
managers on duty when the accidents happened.”

I used hyperbole to demonstrate what you already know too
well, pointed words and phrases make an impact.
For instance, saying Apple executives “chortle” at the deaths of workers
you paint a VERY prejudicial picture of the character of men whose names you
hardly know. I don’t know you. You could be an excellent writer who is
forced to write this way to get paid. That
kind of writing is inappropriate. I apologize
for using it, but I hope it made its intended impact.

I also wasn’t so much criticizing your
research or knowledge so much as trying to provide you a measure with which to
judge what IS and IS NOT opinion. Try
these rules. If it was told to you, say
who it was. If it is something you read,
say who wrote it. If you have seen it or
experienced it or done it yourself, say so.
It is ok to say that “Apple is legendary for demanding extraordinary levels
of control,” because “legendary” describes a reputation, something inherently
anecdotal and you have yourself heard of this reputation. The very next sentence though requires a
referencing support, perhaps “As revealed in the recently released biography of
Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson…” because you yourself did not witness these
events.

I hope this post helps clarify my
meaning and that it finds you and your organization receptive to what I view as
a higher level (NYT level?) of media quality.

nigedo

Good stuff! Now do Wired. :)

Top secret

Get over yourself. In my opinion, you’re a self-referential, condescending douchebag ‘educating’ others about your own egotistical (clearly depressed) *OPINION.* Get off your pedestal and take a seat, prick.

Anonymous

Tedious

karen meyer

Talk about hubris. You believe the reading audience is so stupid and dumb that they don’t recognize a personal opinion as just that. All written pieces have the author’s bias built into them….. by simple virtue of “which facts” are exposed, which are concealed, even WHAT article to write about. You pick apart the syntax, as if it were MORE important than the subject. Hubris, indeed.

If finger pointing is in order then point everywhere because chances are, no matter what electronic device you are reading this article with, parts or all of it were assembled at Foxconn.

Guest

How much did Apple pay you for this comment?

Neon Frank

“When a society forms around any institution, as the South did around
slavery, it will formulate a set of arguments to support it.”

D L

Your understanding of 19th century US history is wrong.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_67LCXEMODQPAK6RZJRUW3MK4RU Lint Porter

My understanding is that the rate of suicide among Foxconn employees is NOT higher than that of a similar sized group of random Chinese young people. In other words, Foxconn’s practices DO NOT increase the “normal” rate of suicide among its workers.

Journalists need to LAY OFF Foxconn and Apple. The employees are working there voluntarily. Slavery ended a long time ago.

Anonymous

And assuming that there is such a thing as a “normal” rate of suicide. And since Foxconn is one of the largest employers, if not the largest, if nobody else is hiring then I suppose that somebody could just choose to not work to support themselves, huh?
The difference between slavery of the past and today is that at least sometimes you can choose who your master is.
But I’m probably way off and Apple is as pure as the wind driven snow, along with their top brass. I’m sure those billionaires worry constantly about the health and safety of their supply chain workforce.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_67LCXEMODQPAK6RZJRUW3MK4RU Lint Porter

In face, GrimGalore, the top brass *do* worry constantly about the health and safety of their supply chain workforce. That’s why their workforce is happier, healthier, and safer than the general population. And no their workers are not slaves by any stretch of the imagination.

Like most insipid liberal rants, your response has no meaning.

The number of Foxconn workers is roughly twice the population of Seattle. So yes, there will be accidents, deaths, suicides; as with any large population. Numbers matter. Liberals should keep their “views” to themselves until they learn some math.

Joel Hruska

That’s why their workforce is happier, healthier, and safer than the general population. [citation needed]

Foster Norman

Now you know professor is gonna correct you with indicating (citation needed) instead of IMHO
: )

Anonymous

Obviously, I don’t have the level of Apple inside information as you do, and no, I’m not a “liberal”, or a “conservative”, for that matter. I don’t identify with labels. But apparently you do. And to say my “rant” has no meaning, at least to you, and implying at the same time that it couldn’t to anyone else is a tad bit egotistical, don’t you think? And as for my view, well, I’m a loud mouth and will spout them out anywhere and anytime I want. If you want to censor me, become a Moderator, math professor.

http://www.mrseb.co.uk Sebastian Anthony

I’m the only moderator ’round these parts, thankyouverymuch.

Anonymous

And doing a loverly job!

http://www.mrseb.co.uk Sebastian Anthony

Thanking you sir *tips hat*

Joel Hruska

“
And to say my “rant” has no meaning, at least to you, and implying at the same time that it couldn’t to anyone else is a tad bit egotistical, don’t you think? And as for my view, well, I’m a loud mouth and will spout them out anywhere and anytime I want. If you want to censor me, become a Moderator, math professor.”

The only thing I did was put a [citation needed] tag around your own previous statement. I made no comment regarding your rant or my opinion on it.

Anonymous

That wasn’t me, mate.

Anonymous

That wasn’t me, mate. I didn’t post this: That’s why their workforce is happier, healthier, and safer than the general population.

Joel Hruska

So it was! I apologize.

http://profile.yahoo.com/A7RAL6KW6IBFCYF5R5O6Z3KX2U Tomas

Lint, your comment is spot on. Despite all the press coverage of the Foxxconn suicides, I have seen no evidence that the rate of suicide there is any higher than elsewhere in China, or indeed elsewhere in America, Europe, or anywhere else. The number of suicides actually documented in the press was tiny compared with Foxxconn’s gigantic workforce.

Joel Hruska

“Despite all the press coverage of the Foxxconn suicides, I have seen no evidence that the rate of suicide there is any higher than elsewhere in China, or indeed elsewhere in America, Europe, or anywhere else.”
First, this is more about factories exploding and a general trend of poor worker treatment than specifically regarding the Foxconn suicides.

Second: The suicides at Foxconn led to studies and investigations into *why* people were committing suicide. The solutions put in place were put there *because* international attention was focused on the issue. If you read some of the published literature on the topic, it will indeed note that Foxconn’s pay was competitive, but that workers who wanted to earn more than a bare-survival level income were forced to work at least 30 hours of overtime a week, stand for 8-12 hours a day, and were mostly young men with no roots or supportive community structure.

You would be perfectly right to note that some of these are societal factors not easily accounted for on a balance sheet. Some of them — like giving employees the two 15-minute breaks mandated by US law or providing seats wherever possible *are* financial items.

Furthermore, Apple is fully capable of evaluating a supplier to determine if appropriate levels of ventilation are in place or refusing to allow a company to use toxic chemicals for product maintenance without first checking to ensure said employees are properly protected.

Neon Frank

Sorry, you are wrong.

Have you lived and worked in China…for years? I have, from the early 1990’s until recently. I worked for multi-national and Chinese manufacturers and sorry to tell you this, but you are wrong.

Foxconn is the tip of the iceberg there is so much more that you will never see or hear about.

The employees are working at Foxconn voluntarily, yes this is true, but this also shows me how little you understand about working in China. You are applying your “western” logic and understanding of work to China and sorry again, that just doesn’t work that way.

I don’t have the energy to attempt to explain the differences and even if I do, its a waste of time because unless you actually work and live in China you’ll never understand it, vis a vie this article.

China is one of those places that when you arrive you believe you have China all figured out within one month. As time goes by you start to realise that everything you thought you understood was completely wrong.

Neon Frank

Sorry, you are wrong.

Have you lived and worked in China…for years? I have, from the early 1990’s until recently. I worked for multi-national and Chinese manufacturers and sorry to tell you this, but you are wrong.

Foxconn is the tip of the iceberg there is so much more that you will never see or hear about.

The employees are working at Foxconn voluntarily, yes this is true, but this also shows me how little you understand about working in China. You are applying your “western” logic and understanding of work to China and sorry again, that just doesn’t work that way.

I don’t have the energy to attempt to explain the differences and even if I do, its a waste of time because unless you actually work and live in China you’ll never understand it, vis a vie this article.

China is one of those places that when you arrive you believe you have China all figured out within one month. As time goes by you start to realise that everything you thought you understood was completely wrong.

Glenn Scott

I love it. “I know what I am talking about, and you are just too stupid to understand it, even if I explained it to you using baby words”.
Please.
Who do you think reads ExtremeTech? Little mister/miss secretary?
I have lived in foreign countries myself, and understand what you are saying, but to assume I cannot understand what you are trying to convey simply because I am not one of the subjects of the discussion is preposterous.
“I would tell you what it means to be a Marine, but you just wouldn’t understand, because you haven’t been one”. I call BS on that.
If you explain something, and people do not understand, it is either because you are not using the proper words, or because you don’t know yourself.
Words mean something. If you use the correct words, you can convey whatever you want.
We’re not talking the math involved in string theory here.

Neon Frank

Sure Glenn, I got it, but being a “tech” means understanding China? Ja, I also get your Marine analogy.

If you have lived and worked in China for any length of time you perhaps would not have replied as you have, but would’ve been nodding and smiling.

Have a more than a causal look at shanghaiexpat.com and read through topic after topic along the lines of “WTF is going on here in China?” by people who work in China and who are not mister/miss secretary (or English teachers haha). Currently I’m working in another country and even the local ethnic Chinese scratch their heads trying to figure out WTF is going on in China (Hong Kongnese also). If they are confused, what hope do we have? haha

Sorry if my post seemed to be condescending, however this often a trait picked up by long term expats in China after parole. I suppose this comes after experiencing years of WTF is going on in China to have people who have never been to China arguing that China is easy to understand and is cool, and hip. (face palm)

I agree words mean something but understanding China IS more complex than the math involved in string theory.

Lint Porter said ” Journalists need to LAY OFF Foxconn and Apple. The employees are working there voluntarily. Slavery ended a long time ago. “

CO Charbax “if the workers have to choose between working at Foxconn and starving, they DO NOT have a choice. That means it is slavery. It is not fair to claim that people have a choice to starve ergo it is not slavery.”

tell us Lint as Nicolas points out, when was the last time You met a person that would choose “starvation” over even a little income, a time shared bed and a biscuit and a cup of tea for breakfast before they started yet another 12 hour shift ?

Anonymous

That’s what, like a 28% profit margin? And people complain when the oil companies make as high as 10%

Neon Frank

TIC, or as every expat in China will tell you “This Is China”, sorry, but what did you expect?

I spent years working in China and this is nothing compared to other Chinese companies. So what are you going to do now? Well you can be outraged and then do nothing, as this all you can do.

Want to know what’s going on in China? Cruise the expat forums for a while such as shanghaiexpat.com.

Have fun!

Anonymous

Neon, (this following is an academic hypothetical ONLY) If the U.S. were to allow unrestricted immigration for the purposes of low cost labor, say 20% higher than Chinese standard pay rates, with all the health and safety requirements standard at U.S. factories, would Chinese workers immigrate or stay home to work for Foxconn?

Neon Frank

Prof, what kind of question are you asking? OK….

When God makes a rock so big he cannot lift it.

There is your answer. :)

How about there is another company IN China with everything you said, the answer is yes, Chinese workers will want to work there instead of Foxconn. And to answer how likely this will be…

When God makes a rock so big he cannot lift it.

mori bund

In a recent daily-show-clip (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-16-2012/fear-factory)
SIRI claimed that a device would cost 23% more if it would be produced in the USA under fair conditions and fair wages.
I could easily live with that!
But I’m pretty sure Apple (or any other company) would keep the 23% and still produce it under degrading conditions.

Anonymous

Try the link in this New York Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all

It explains why that 23% number you cite isn’t ANYWHERE close and why it isn’t the labor costs that make China the most competitive place to manufacture.

BTW the average new refridgerator on sale in the U.S.approximately $1000. Add 23% COST and that price tag goes to nearly $1500. You ok paying THAT?

mori bund

Thank you for the link – I will read it.

And OK paying that? Depends on how big the profit margin of the corporation is. If the refridgorator’s costs are… let’s say… 300$, the workers get almost nothing, the corporation gets 1200$ and I pay 1500$, then no! I’m not OK with it!
BTW: only the parts of an iPhone 4S cost $188.

Anonymous

When I hire a new salesperson I use this test. If you make a widget for $5 how much should you sell it for?

The ONLY right answer is “how much will the customer pay?”

Your notion of your position in this transactional chain is silly. The manufacturer doesn’t change his employee wages based on profits. His labor costs change the same way his profits do. It all depends on the willingness of others to enter into a contract with him (and honor it). Customers to buy vendors to supply and employees/contractors to do labor.

mori bund

This way you can be sure that the worker is always the one who gets f***ed over.
This is what regulations, rules, minimum wages, etc in a civilized country are for.

Foster Norman

There is an old parable that deals directly with this sentiment where workers are paid the same wage per day but some don’t have to work as long as others for that wage. Those who started early were upset that the ones hired later were paid equally. Were the early workers effed? They agreed to work for the stated amount for the day but only felt effed when compared to others. They were not screwed in any way except in their own perseptions.

The professor is 100% correct. I have often lamented the truth of it but the free market is dictated by what it will bear, not what seems fair. And greed is typically at the base of that particular decision making process.

mori bund

The parable is from the bible.
Still it can’t justify that Foxconn-workers
get 31 cents per hour and inhuman work conditions.

This is one reason why a free market needs regulations!
Everywhere where it has no regulations there are
people who get exploited and other people like you
who want to sugarcoat it (ironically with bible verses).

Foster Norman

Not sugar coating anything. Merely pointing out that US attitude problems are often at the base of dissatisfaction. The situation in China, or India, or wherever, has nothing to do with how the foundation of any employer/employee relationship is based upon an agreement of work for specified pay. But just because someone else makes more money than another for the same job doesn’t always mean that they are being effed.
I actually agree with labor law and regulation to protect workers from exploitation. It has been proven through time the greed of a company/corporation will often do what is bad/unfair to its employees or for the environment or whatever. People will not do what is good for themselves in the long term when they need to feed themselves or their family now. The workers who have no choice but to work in bad circumstances or starve are the ones who are effed.

http://pip99.livejournal.com/ TechU

your not getting it back as the people making the choices don’t want to

“Apple’s executives believe the vast scale of overseas factories as well as the flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers have so outpaced their American counterparts that “Made in the U.S.A.” is no longer a viable option for most Apple products.”

plus OC the US worker will not assemble for $10 on a 12hours shift etc…

$10 for Chinese workers assembling each iPhone.$140 for the components (all sent to the Chinese factory that just puts them together)$500 is Apple’s pure profit per iPhone (each iPhone is sold at an average of $650 mostly through carriers)

mori bund

Yeah, lets’s change the US to China, US workers should have the same conditions as the Chinese workers to get Apple back to America. We’re already working on that…

Anonymous

What chills me is this sentence:

“… A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside
the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was
given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within
half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled
frames…”

Note– These people don’t go HOME. No-one commutes to a nice little picket fence haven. They sleep in Company Dormitories.

You know– they may be doing it by choice– but by 21st century Western Standards, they are ‘Slaving’. The fact that they consider this ‘Good’ should make you Think about how bad it REALLY is in the countryside!!!
>> Lint-Porter: No-one in this Country, or Europe wants to Live like that. Yet that’s the direction Right-wingers are pushing us into. This is the face of Globalization that no-one talks about.

Anonymous

No, we right wingers just wish you would take a moment and realize how good you got it and quit moaning “poor, me minimum wage is not a ‘Living Wage'”

Yup, of course they don’t go home, the workers live at the factory, same as most workers do in Chinese factories. The only time the workers go home is during Chinese New Year…this is why buses and trains are full to overflowing during this time of year. Well overflowing cannot describe the pandemonium.

Of course these workers are doing this by choice because this is a normal lifestyle for them. You cannot compare your western culture and way of life with Chinese, its just not possible. It is what it is.

Throughout Chinese history there has always been a hierarchy of power and privilege with the government holding supreme power and at bottom is the common worker.

For China to be democratic means a complete about face of 5000 years of Chinese culture. That was tried in 1911 and failed and Mao established a new imperial dynasty – communism, if only in name. Deng Xiaoping brought back capitalism after Mao’s death and the rest as they say, is history.

Anonymous

Apple conducts audits across its supply chain. The company made the results public for the first time in its history.

>>>Apple’s honesty is commendable in making the audit results public, and while listing known issues, Apple has also made it abundantly clear that the company is taking steps to address the problems. But there are two very important points here. a] How could Apple have missed these issues earlier? b] Is Apple’s response enough?

Joel you committed the cardnial sin. “Thou Shalt not take Apples name in vain and lump it in with other not so cool companies who do the exact same thing”
Apples brilliance is not in their tech its in their marketing, all the folks who just gush over the latest and greatest Apple products simply cannot fathom thier tech demigod doing the same vile inhuman disgusting things that the other tech manufactures do….really it just cant be so.
Apple has earned its 100 billion in the bank all from their innovation; not off the backs of the poor chinese workers like the other guys do.
Where apples brilliance shines is thier marketing hype which they spoon feed to thier adoring public who lap it up like kittens after cream This allows apple to do the same things the other tech manufactures do but their profit margins are nearly twice that of anyone else because their adoring fan base will just keep paying premium prices for anything “new” from their tech god.
That ladies and gents is true brilliance and maybe a bit of good old fashioned brain washing……..

P.T. Barnum said it best…there is a sucker born every minute…apple has just been better at fleecing the suckers than anyone else at the moment.

have any of you idea just how much product is manufactured by FOX CONN?

For one, more motherboards than I can shake a stick at.
2 your xbox and playstation consoles.
3 many cases and other custom manufactured clones.
4 they make connectors and plugins used by many other companies.
-pop open your computer, look at the silver boxes that contain the sockets your USB devices and and other things plug into. Betcha 9/10 of you reading have at least one FOXCONN part in your PC if not more.

FOX CONN is MASSIVE, and impacts just about ALL of us who use or have owned Technology.

——————————————————————————————————————————————————-

Lastly what needs to change in China is not the hourly thing. We could do that. We chose not to. What makes US great is that we cannot Force hours without just compensation (thank the Unions). What makes us great is that we have safety regulation(thank the Unions), though they are not often enough enforced(all working conditions including air). What makes us great is that at least until recently Unions kept employers from out right screwing employees for all they are worth. It is common in Asian countries to have a living section in a factory. Employees may leave their homes for a week or more at a time, and stay at the factory to make whatever. When they are rested they return to work for an optimal flow of production. This is very close to slavery, but it is voluntary and paid work.

Here in the USA we could do this. Most employers will balk about insurance rates. But the truth is most employees would balk period. I would happily work a 60 week if I could take rest between shifts. The hours would go quickly and I would end up with a real whopper of a pay check.

We poopoo the practice even if it would pay more. In the end, in the eyes of the rest of the world we are lazy, over paid, under worked, and over privileged. Like, Exon Mobile Executives! Except they have gold toilets, ours are plastic…

Anonymous

Reading may be fundamental but comprehension is key. No where did I say Apple is the only one, in fact I specifically compared Apple to all the other companies doing the EXACT same thing. The point is Apple typically get a pass from its adoring public on these issues. If the headline had been Motorolla instead of Apple, the Apple fanboys would have been here in mass denouncing Motorolla as the most evil company on the planet and then holding them up in comparison to Apple where the sun always shines. All the major tech companies are guilty of this nonsense Apple just happens to be better at pulling more profit from it and not having the evil residue stick to them from it.

Here’s a simple solution. Apple could recognize and negotiate with independent, democratically elected union representatives.

Neon Frank

Social responsibility audits in China are for the most part routinely glossed over, so don’t take too much notice of them. So…..what Chinese companies do is have two sets of books, one for the audits and then the real ones.

In addition where the factory is located plays a very important part in
how much the laws can be ignored. Shanghai, the doorway to the west is
much stricter than elsewhere.

China’s labour laws state no employee should work more than 36 hours OT per month and more than 3 hours OT per day.

China Employment Law Guide 2005 – Cornell University

Working Hours and Overtime – page 21

Chinese regulations provide for a standard working hours system
consisting of five eight-hour work days and two rest days (usually
Saturday and Sunday) per week.

Under the standard working hours system, employees that work over 40 hours per week are entitled to the following compensation:

• Overtime on work days – 150% of normal wages

• Overtime on rest days – compensatory leave or 200% of normal wages

• Overtime on statutory holidays – 300% of normal wages

Before having employees work overtime, employers must consult with the
employees and the labor union (if any). Overtime hours generally should
not exceed one hour per day, or three hours per day under special
circumstances, and no more than 36 hours per month.

If Apple officially requires Chinese suppliers to restrict workers to 60 hours a week. How then did Apple manage to have workers working 80 hours overtime a month when Chinese labour law states a maximum of 36 hours? Not to mention that Foxconn had them working 12 hour shifts so if one does the math that is 72 hours per week, 12 hours over Apple’s official requirement (assuming a 6 day week, ya pull the other one!)Hmm?The rabbit hole goes very deep in China

So how was it possible for Foxconn’s workers to work 12 hour

JenWest

Sounds like China is being it’s typical gold farming self, and then when they fuck up they try to point the finger at Apple.

I guess no one told the Chinese that the shit always runs down hill, not up. Fucking commie bastards think they can pass the buck? LOL!

Foster Norman

Best comment thread I have ever read. The OP/ED piece was entertaining as well.

Dennis Reiley

Manufacturing facilities outside the US with poor health records should be outlawed from having their products imported to the US – by them or anyone else.

US health standards should apply to every manufacturing facility whose products enter this country.

http://twitter.com/traroth traroth

They are not “little robots”, they are SLAVES!!!
Free trade is a bad thing if it’s allowed to trade with countries allowing slavery, because US workers will be in competition with slaves, and the only way to match this competition is for the US workers to become slaves themselves!

fdsgds

Why should we care when people from China buy Apple products as well, thereby showing they don’t give a crap about those that suffer (despite coming from the same country)?

http://www.facebook.com/sienna.lai Sienna Lai

if your stats are correct: Apple reported $46.33 billion in revenue two days ago, including $13.06B in net profits.
Then this is 28.19% net of revenue .. this by itself is unheard of.

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