Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:35:16 GMT
From: Rowland Croucher
Subject: Homosexuality: An interview with Jesus [1]
HOMOSEXUALITY: An Interview with Jesus...
These posts address one of the two or three most-argued-issues
between Christians and non-Christians on the Internet, and between
Christians themselves...
This is first-draft, too brief, probably simplistic and somewhat
tentative. Those of you to my ideological right and left will want
to modify some of this. I invite your critical comments. Apart from
hermeneutic/interpretive questions this imaginary interview might
shock some Christians. In my defense I would assert that authentic
Christian homiletics always asks 'What would Jesus say/do?' and he
too had critics to his right and left!
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
==========================================================================
Director, JOHN MARK MINISTRIES --- resources for pastors/leaders & spouses
Tel: 613 9729 2517 Fax: 613 9729 2494 Email: rowlandc@werple.mira.net.au
Home Page: http://melbourne.dialix.oz.au/~rowlandc/
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[Part 1]
Interviewer: Jesus, you had a reputation for hanging around with
those on the edges/margins of society. But some of my homosexual
friends and clients wonder why you said nothing about homosexuality,
even though it was rife back then. We're in a 'bi' bar in San
Francisco... why are you here?
# Jesus: Hi! I was invited by a friend. Remember when Matthew threw
a party for his mafia-type mates? I was enjoying myself before the
religious leaders gate-crashed it.
What is a homosexual? Can we agree that he or she has an erotic
attraction to and preference for members of the same sex? And can we
use the word for both sexes (the Greek word 'homos' means 'same')?
And that not all homosexuals are sexually active; nor are all people
who engage in homosexual acts necessarily homosexual? And that
Kinsey's 'shrinking 10%' of exclusive homosexual males is more
realistically about 1% (Time Magazine 26 April, 1993)? But what's
in your mind when you meet a homosexual?
# First, like all of us they're made in the image of God and are
loved by God. So they know I love them too. Many feel ostracized -
actually, like the lepers of ancient Palestine, so, as you know, I
share an affinity with those kinds of people. And where would the
arts - music, drama, media - be without them?
That word 'love'...
# Oh yes, your English language is impoverished isn't it? I mean
'love-before-worth' not 'love-responding-to-worth' or 'love-me-to-
meet-my-needs.' The most tragic thing in life is not to know you're
unconditionally loved.
Your Bible condemns homosexuality doesn't it?
# No.
No?
# No. Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27 condemn homosexual
_activity_. But lending money at interest, having sexual intercourse
during a woman's menstrual period etc. are also condemned; slavery
and polygamy are condoned in the Bible. Do you want to be
consistent?
You didn't mention 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10.
# Are you sure they're about homosexual practice? Or do they talk
about promiscuity and prostitution - sex for payment? And did you
notice that the 'greedy' and 'revilers' are in the 1 Corinthians
list? I would have thought Western churches have a fair share of
those. And, back to Romans 1 - there's no break at the end of the
sentence at verse 28: Paul goes right on condemning all sorts of
things.
OK - but there's also Sodom.
# And you're a 'master in the church' and don't know that the
problem there (as in Judges 19-21) was gang-rape, not homosexuality?
Every time Sodom is referred to in the OT and apocryphal books - and
in the one Gospel reference, Luke 10:10-12 - it's never in
connection with homosexuality. In Ezekiel 16:49 for example, Sodom's
sins are pride, materialism, idleness or being uncaring.
If someone's testicles are crushed or their penis cut off or they're
illegitimate they can't worship with others (Deuteronomy 23:1-6).
# Isaiah (56:3-8) predicted that eunuchs and others banned from the
Temple would one day have a full place in God's community. I came to
fulfil all that. Those on the margins are moved to the centre, and
vice-versa. So when convention, custom or law prevents the exercise
of compassion or justice-love (John 8:1-11, Matthew 23:23, Luke
11:42 etc.) the latter takes precedence.
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:43:11 GMT
From: Rowland Croucher
Subject: Homosexuality: An interview with Jesus [2]
HOMOSEXUALITY: An Interview with Jesus... Part 2
When Bishop Spong or Troy Perry write about God affirming homosexual
love - what do you think of that?
# I did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfil it. Using a
modern analogy, law is to love what railway tracks are to the train:
the law gives direction, but all the propulsive power is in the
train.
A recent government survey in Australia ('Project Male Call', May
1994) found that 12% of homosexually active males reported having
unprotected anal intercourse with casual male partners. 49% of
homosexually active men engaged only in casual sex compared with 19%
who reported having a regular relationship and engaging in casual
sex. Almost three quarters of those interviewed (73%) reported
having had multiple sexual partners in the previous six months. What
do you think of all that?
# My conservative friends are disgusted; my liberal friends may
respond 'So what?' I feel compassion for what are obviously many
lonely, frustrated people. They are sad, and I am sad with them. And
I say to them, _after_ 'I do not condemn you', 'Go and sin no more.'
Let's talk about politics. Christians generally get more uptight
about giving 'family rights' to 'gay' couples than to heterosexual
de facto relationships. Why is that?
# Well, you've got to figure when 'sins' become 'crimes'. Adultery?
Same sex relationships? It's odd that in your country, Australia, it
has never been illegal to be a lesbian, but in Tasmania sex between
consenting males in private is a criminal act. Then there's the
whole question of 'adultism' - the choices adults make (as also in
divorce and abortion) in favour of themselves and often against
children. But I think your modern Western culture has a deeper
problem: its insistence on the nuclear family being the key way to
raise children in a post-industrial world. Back in my Palestinian
days we had extended families - far better. Every child ought to
relate regularly to safe nurturing adults - of both sexes - other
than their biological parents.
Which raises the question of 'sex' generally. What's your view?
# The Bible is quite clear that human sexual activity involves three
relational components - procreation, enjoyment, and covenant. The
Catholic church has generally majored on the first and last of these
:-)
Alright Lord, the churches: Evangelical groups (Christian Voice, the
Festival of Light, the Southern Baptist Convention's Christian Life
Commission, Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition) oppose any 'special
rights' for homosexuals. (Their posters say 'God made Adam and Eve,
not Adam and Steve'). They cite statistics like 'The median age of
death for homosexual men from all causes is 42, and of lesbians is
45; fewer than 3% of homosexuals today are over the age of 55; and
only 1% of homosexuals die of old age.' (I wonder where they got
those figures?). Mainline churches defend homosexuals' civil rights
but have mixed feelings about ordaining openly gay people to the
priesthood (though all of them ordain some homosexuals from time to
time). A UK gay-rights group, Outrage, alleges that 10 C of E
bishops are homosexuals. Recently, the retired bishop of Glasgow and
Galloway became the highest-ranking clergyman in the faith's 460
years to admit publicly that he was gay. Some see as anachronistic
at best and hypocritical at worst the fact that the Church of
England does not accept sexually active gays and lesbians as
priests. A few clergy will bless same-sex unions; probably most
won't. Andrew Greeley (Confessions of a Parish Priest, 1987, p.129)
says homosexual Roman Catholic priests are a small minority and fall
into four categories - some don't have a strong sexual orientation
in either direction; those whose homosexuality is clear but hidden;
some go to gay venues (did you see the movie 'Priest' Lord?); and
pederasts - who prey on boys or young men.
# Shows there are saints and sinners at all levels of the church. So
let's not be too judgmental: I often said that when I was here 2000
years ago. And remember my friend Peter's word about judgment
beginning in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). Some conservatives can
be compassionate (eg. Alex Davidson's The Returns of Love). Some
liberals can be too permissive, and their followers don't know
what's right/wrong any more...
What 'causes' homosexuality? Elizabeth Moberly (Homosexuality: A New
Christian Ethic) says most homosexuals during childhood got detached
emotionally from members of the same sex (often the same sex
parent). So they may have pre-adult emotional needs which are
confused with adult physiological desires - and so intimacy is
related to genital sex. Most of my homosexual clients present with
this sort of story.
# Ah... but you're about to add 'not all'?
Yes. A (small) minority came from apparently loving and stable home
backgrounds. Hormonal studies (eg. disorder 5-alpha-reductase
deficiency where males are born with female genitalia; or congenital
adrenal hyperplasia where females are born with male genitalia);
genetic studies (eg. Bailey and Pillard's finding that a male
homosexual identical twin has a 52% chance of having a brother who
is also homosexual; or Hamer et. al's studies of gene markers); and
neuroanatomic studies such as LeVay's - all seem to indicate a
recent bias towards 'nature' rather than 'nurture' as causal, eh?
# They do, _perhaps_. Scientists are simply discovering,
incrementally, various aspects of God's truth. But these studies
have a long way to go yet?
Yes, I guess. Can I make a few comments? LeVay acknowledges that the
brains he studied were of AIDS victims, so he can't be sure that
what he saw was genetic rather than the result of disease. The
twins studies - and the figure is 22% for non-identical twins, 9.2%
for non-twin biological brothers - suggests a significant 'nurture'
factor. And gene markers were also reported for schizophrenia,
manic-depression and Huntington's Disease, but I think only for the
latter have they been successfully replicated. Time Magazine (June
12, 1995, pp. 50-51) in an article headed 'Search for a Gay Gene'
says: 'No one has proved that a particular gene promotes gayness.'
(I'm out of my depth when it's scientific, Lord, but someone out
there will bring me up to date on all this). But let's move on to
sociology. Kinsey said hetero-/homo- orientations exist on a
continuum... In some cultures homosexual behaviors are common before
and sometimes after marriage... Then there's institutional
homosexuality - navies, prisons, and so on.
# And have you wondered why before the 20th century the focus was on
behavior - now it's more on identity?
OK. Are we saying that it's reductionistic to think of homosexuality
as either biologically 'hardwired' or psychologically determined?
# Compassion focuses on needs not causes. Most did not choose to be
homosexual. Some are struggling with guilt and self-esteem
problems. Again, they knew I accepted and loved them, but they feel
my followers don't. Why is that?
Part 3 follows...
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
==========================================================================
Director, JOHN MARK MINISTRIES --- resources for pastors/leaders & spouses
Tel: 613 9729 2517 Fax: 613 9729 2494 Email: rowlandc@werple.mira.net.au
Home Page: http://melbourne.dialix.oz.au/~rowlandc/
Clergy/Leaders' List: clergym@pastornet.net.au (SUBSCRIBE on subject-line)
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:49:36 GMT
From: Rowland Croucher
Subject: Homosexuality: An interview with Jesus [3]
HOMOSEXUALITY: An Interview with Jesus... Part 3
Some homosexuals abhor the question I'm about to ask (I saw a banner
at a gay church which said 'He died to take away your sins. Not your
sexuality.') Anyway: what if a homosexual _wants_ to change?
# The principles are clear: my followers are to do in their world
what I did when I was physically with them (John 20:21). Remember I
sometimes asked 'Do you want to change/be healed?' Some did, some
didn't. But all were loved, and if guilt was a root cause of their
problem I forgave their sins - still do. But homosexual sins aren't
the worst - I got more angry with 'sins of the spirit'.
So whatever happens, homosexual people need an accepting community
over a long period of time, particularly if they've struggled with
their sexuality: they 'can never live as if they never were'
homosexuals. Some miracles take longer?
# Yes. Think of my disciples: their personality-changes took years.
Judas bombed completely. Some people (including some homosexuals)
who've been sexually, emotionally or spiritually abused almost
always take longer to recover. But some miraculous changes can be
instantaneous.
Can true homosexuals become heterosexuals? It seems to be pretty
rare. The way out of homosexuality is not easy - about 10% according
to some studies make the change completely - and they need strong
determination and constant support (American Journal of Psychiatry,
137:12, Dec. 1980). Many won't fulfil the role of 'healthy
heterosexual' epitomized by marriage, children and mortgage. Tony
Campolo writes somewhere, 'In the likelihood that most (homosexuals)
will still have their basic sexual orientations regardless of their
efforts to change, we must do more than simply bid them be celibate.
We must find ways for them to have fulfilling, loving experiences so
that they might have their humanity affirmed and their incorporation
into the Body of Christ assured.'
# I'll go along with that. Some of my fundamentalist followers issue
edicts: 'Repent, change, or be celibate. Then you're acceptable
here.' (Have you noticed that was the way of the pharisee? My
approach was the opposite - acceptance preceded repentance). Some of
my pentecostal followers expect miracles to save them from the
trouble of 'hanging in there', week in week out. But some of my
liberal followers expect no miracles at all: they are not
convinced, with Jude, that God can keep people from falling, even
though we are never free from the tempter's power (Luke 17:1).
What would you say to such groups as The Festival of Light?
# I'd insist (on this issue) they set up a compassionate pastoral
ministry to HIV/AIDS sufferers, and not be allowed to make any
comments about homosexuality until their spokespersons had spent 500
hours in that ministry.
Until 1974 the American Psychiatric Association listed homosexuality
as a mental disorder. Why does this issue create such intolerance -
from all sides?
# Well, think of the Gospels' stories about Samaritans, for example.
Racially, religiously - and sexually, too - humans have great
difficulties tolerating those not-like-one's-self (xenophobia,
heterophobia, homophobia). Until you're truly 'redeemed' you'll have
your own 'antipathy' people - who represent all that frightens or
repulses you. I like the sentiments in a Psalm (139:14) I sing
regularly: 'I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works; that I know very well.' And also the words
of my disciple John: 'Perfect love casts out fear' (1 John 4:18).
Lord, can I ask you a personal question... Are you, um, er...???
# They didn't tell you about some areas of my private life did they?
But did you notice some of my close friends were women, others men;
some 'up-and-outs' others 'down-and-outs'; and I was both strong and
tender - neither 'macho' nor a 'wimp'...?
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
==========================================================================
Director, JOHN MARK MINISTRIES --- resources for pastors/leaders & spouses
Tel: 613 9729 2517 Fax: 613 9729 2494 Email: rowlandc@werple.mira.net.au
Home Page: http://melbourne.dialix.oz.au/~rowlandc/
Clergy/Leaders' List: clergym@pastornet.net.au (SUBSCRIBE on subject-line)