How come Islam is so iconoclastic? I watched an episode of Southpark the other day that was making fun of Family Guy and the Islamic prophet Muhammed was on the show, but his appearance was censored out because the network thought it would be offensive to air.

you have to understand that having images of divine leaders can cause problems when sharing the religion with others... problems such as racisim

for example, if a mosque keep putting pictures of mohammed everywhere ...who was an arab

How do you think a non-muslim non-arabs feel? He/she would get an initial impression that this religion is advocating a believe system that his/her race wasn't divine enough for the creator!

Hence, in Islam we want to have less emphasis on pictures of humans (especially of prophets)... and more emphasis on the invisible Creator, who created all of mankind with a great variety of features and color.

Well Imam Mahdi is something majority of Muslims believe in (shias/sufis/sunnis...etc).

He's an individual that lord willing, will come at the right time to lead the world out of chaos and deception caused by the antichrist (dajjal). He'll reveal the truths about our universe. He'll be alongside the Messiah, as Jesus will defeat the antichrist.

Many eastern religions have talked about him... a savior that will come and remove all forms of tyranny and oppression-- then install justice and peaceful equality around the world.

Maybe at a latter time, we can start a new thread and talk about Eschatology in both Islam and Christianity. I'll try to find good resource on this topic to share with you.

Just remember in Islam we believe that Dajjal starts it's wars against mankind spiritually, with the help of jinns. Then in it's final stages of it's agenda (ruling the whole world by manipulating the cultural norms of all societies) he'll come in a physical form (will have one eye, and only people who are pious and have spiritual discernment will recognize he's the antichrist/dajjal).

At the same time, imam Mahdi will be fighting this creature... he'll fight him spiritually (with maybe the help of armies of angles and/or jinns), he'll fight physically (when the time is right).

In the end we believe that good will defeat evil, so Imam Mahdi and Jesus will win at the end of the day and the some important divine truths about our universe will be revealed.

No, we do not need to discuss our beliefs, but a bit more about the Madhi would have been appreciated.

Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

If there were truly "no compulsion in religion" (ie. Islam) as the Qu'ran says, why does the Qu'ran also enjoin muslims to punish apostasy with death?

Surah, verse?

I apologize for overstating the specificity of the Qu'ranic penalty for apostasy. I was misled by other zealous Christian commentary against it. However, all 4 major schools of Islamic jurisprudence unanimously agree the penalty for apostasy IS death and I think it's fair to assume that all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence certainly DO understand what the intent of the Qu'ran is regarding apostasy. Here's a summary of their positions from a book called "The Penalties for Apostasy in Islam" by 'Abdurrahmani'l-Djaziri

Quote

[...]Muslim scholars (imams) have said: Apostasy must be determined by the testimony of two upright adult witnesses whose accounts agree. When a judge asks how the Muslim fell from the faith, the witness must say, "He says such and such or does such and such."

All four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) -- may Allah have mercy upon them -- agree that the apostate whose fall from Islam is beyond doubt -- may Allah forbid it -- must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation. The hypocrite and heretic (zindiq) who poses as a Muslim but has secretly remained an unbeliever must also be killed.

2. Calling the Apostate to Repentance

The Hanafites: When the Muslim falls away from Islam -- may Allah forbid it! -- he is first asked to return. If he has doubts, he is to express them; one can then clear up his doubts, for it may be that he truly has questions with regard to the faith -- questions in need of explanation. By this it is possible to deal with his evil deed (sharr) through the best of two possibilities: death or the acceptance of Islam. However, it remains desirable to offer him the acceptance of Islam again, although this is not obligatory, because the message had already been offered him once.

If he needs time to reconsider, it is desirable that the judge allow him a three-day extension, during which he is to remain in custody. If he accepts Islam thereafter, it is good; if not, he is to be killed, for Allah says to "kill those who believe in many gods" (Sura al-Tawba 9:5), without fixing a deadline. The Prophet also said, "Kill him who changes his religion," without mentioning a delay, because the apostate is surely a hostile unbeliever and no asylum seeker (musta'min) who has asked for protection; furthermore, he is no dhimmi (a non-Muslim under Islamic rule), for no poll tax is demanded of him. Therefore, he should be killed without reservation.

The Hanafites are of the opinion that it does not matter whether the apostate is a freeman or a slave.

The Shafi´ites: If a Muslim becomes apostate -- Allah forbid! -- the imam should grant him three days' grace; he is not to be killed before this period expires, for the apostasy of a Muslim from his faith often results from his confusion. Therefore a grace period is necessary, so that he can reflect, and that the truth can become clear to him again. We, the Shafi´ites, have determined that this time should consist of three days, whether he asks for it or not.

It has been told about our master, Umar b. al-Khattab -- may Allah be pleased with him -- that a man was sent to him by Abu Mosa al-Ashaari. Umar asked him: "Do you have any good news?"; the man said, "Yes, a man apostatised from Islam, so we killed him." Umar said: "Did you first take him into custody for three days, giving him one loaf per day, so that he may repent? O Allah -- you are a witness -- I was not there, neither did I give any orders, nor did I concede to that action." This story was mentioned by Malek the imam in his book, Al-Muwattu, to the effect that Umar disapproved of what they did. Thus, one can conclude from this event that an apostate must be given a three-day time limit before he is put to death.

If the apostate repents, or utters the two main articles of faith (al-shahadatain), or confesses faith in the oneness of Allah (monotheism), he will be released. But if he does not repent, he is to be killed by the sword immediately. This punishment cannot be evaded, because apostasy is the most atrocious and severe form of blasphemy, and it deserves the cruellest judgement, which invalidates all of a Muslim's previous deeds. Allah says: "And for those among you who allow themselves to be led astray from their religion, and who die as unbelievers, their works are invalid now and in eternity" (Sura al-Baqara 2:217). If the apostate returns to Islam, he need not repeat the pilgrimage which had been performed before the apostasy. This is unlike the Hanafites who said: If the apostate repents, he must repeat the pilgrimage, because his apostasy has nullified it.

The Malikites: The imam should grant the apostate three days and nights -- beginning with the day on which his apostasy was committed, and not with the day of his unbelief or the day upon which the accusation was brought against him. The three days of confinement are to follow in succession, and the day on which the apostasy was proven should not be considered as part of the time limit, if it was preceded by dawn. During his confinement, he is to be given food and drink, which are to be paid out of his assets, while his wife and children are not being cared for by his assets. If he has no assets, he is to be cared for by the public treasury or House of Property (bait ulmal), whether he promises to repent or not. He is not to be beaten in prison, even if he persists in his apostasy. He is surely to be given many chances to repent within this time-limit, in order to prevent bloodshed or punishment resulting from doubts. This should clear up his doubts and give him time to reconsider, so that he may change his mind and repent. If the judge decides on his death before the end of this grace period, his decision is legally binding, because he has ruled on a disputed issue. If he repents after three days, he is to be released; but if he does not, he is to be killed on the third day, at sunset. His corpse is to be neither washed nor embalmed. He is to be buried neither in the cemeteries of the Muslims nor of the unbelievers (kuffar), for he is not one of them, having once been a Muslim. In fact, his body is to be thrown upon the ground as a public example.

The Hanbalites: There are two opinions on this issue. Some believe that the apostate should be given a period for repentance consisting of three days, while others are of the opinion that he is to be granted no time for reconsideration but should only be offered Islam. If he accepts the offer, he is to be set free; if not, he is to be put to death immediately.

This is no joke nor is it a baseless accusation. Anyone who is flirting with Islam should know up front what every informed muslim in the world understands about apostasy regardless what an apologist might say in a forum like this. If some individual imagines death is not required for apostasy from Islam, it hardly matters if 1 billion other muslims think your blood should be "shed without reservation".

ummm you do know that I'm not a follower of the sunni school?

furthermore.... quran is the final word on these mattersthere is no mention of punishment by death for apostasy

just because certain sects says so and make it into a standard procedure....doesn't make it rightthe Creator will judge their rulings in the end

If you look at my earlier posts in this thread, I address this concern. I recommend you watch the animated film of the prophet to get a better idea.

Quote

What is Jihad?

It means 'struggle'some misguided sects of the religion... like the Wahhabi sect have unfortunately abused this word and made it into a violent term

Quote

Tell us something about the worship(pillars?) in Islam.

Well we worship 5 times a day towards mecca... there are a lot of benefits to it. The ritual we perform is very similar to yoga...it relaxes the body.

My belief is that it charges up (turns on) the 'chakras'.

It also can help change your voice into a mesmerizing form (ie. deepen your voice to give you confidence ...etc.) ...because part of the exercise is very similar to the roll-down exercise http://voiceguy.ca/blog/voiceguy/roll-down <-- this is an exercise that is very common in voice training programs

Quote

What is the deal with Mecca?

We pray towards mecca, and those close to mecca go around it 7 times.

I encourage you to read about Telluric currents, ley lines and earth vertices.

The following is my opinion:

It's like a 'spiritual blackhole'. Where the center is the focal point of all muslims. Our praying ritual has a wave-like characteristic...and 'spiritual (requesting) information' is 'flowing' to this center point. All that 'spiritual information' is then bundled up at the center of kabba (in mecca) and then sent to the Creator.

No, we do not need to discuss our beliefs, but a bit more about the Madhi would have been appreciated.

sure... I'll talk about him in more details in the future.

There are hadiths that say he'll come from the shia regions near Afganistan and/or Iran <--- this is why so much conflicts are happening thereand the push for war is mainly with Iran and other shia regions

I believe that dajjal and his jinns are deceiving western armies to start major wars and destroy that region to a point of utter chaos so that it makes it extremely difficult for Imam Mahdi to carry out his mission.

If you are interested in learning more, I recommend this english lecture

If you look at my earlier posts in this thread, I address this concern. I recommend you watch the animated film of the prophet to get a better idea.

Quote

What is Jihad?

It means 'struggle'some misguided sects of the religion... like the Wahhabi sect have unfortunately abused this word and made it into a violent term

Quote

Tell us something about the worship(pillars?) in Islam.

Well we worship 5 times a day towards mecca... there are a lot of benefits to it. The ritual we perform is very similar to yoga...it relaxes the body.

My belief is that it charges up (turns on) the 'chakras'.

It also can help change your voice into a mesmerizing form (ie. deepen your voice to give you confidence ...etc.) ...because part of the exercise is very similar to the roll-down exercise http://voiceguy.ca/blog/voiceguy/roll-down <-- this is an exercise that is very common in voice training programs

Quote

What is the deal with Mecca?

We pray towards mecca, and those close to mecca go around it 7 times.

I encourage you to read about Telluric currents, ley lines and earth vertices.

The following is my opinion:

It's like a 'spiritual blackhole'. Where the center is the focal point of all muslims. Our praying ritual has a wave-like characteristic...and 'spiritual (requesting) information' is 'flowing' to this center point. All that 'spiritual information' is then bundled up at the center of kabba (in mecca) and then sent to the Creator.

If Jihad is struggle(i thought it meant holy war), what is Jihad all about?

Is it true that muslims are obligated to do a pilgrimage to Mecca at least one time in their lives? Can a non-Muslim do this pilgrimage?

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

furthermore.... quran is the final word on these mattersthere is no mention of punishment by death for apostasy

just because certain sects says so and make it into a standard procedure....doesn't make it rightthe Creator will judge their rulings in the end

The "certain sects" you refer to together comprise 75% to 90% of the world muslim population with your particular sect (shiah) making up as little as 10%. Of course the Sunni "ruling" on apostasy isn't right, but then neither are Shiah rulings. The Qu'ran is NOT the word of God.

I have a question. You know how in Christianity there is a big debate between Protestants and EO/RCs about whether baptism should be done on infants? Is there a similar debate in Islam about whether or not parents could take their infant on the pilgrimage and thus complete the pillar for them? Or, does it have to be done in adulthood?

I have a question. You know how in Christianity there is a big debate between Protestants and EO/RCs about whether baptism should be done on infants? Is there a similar debate in Islam about whether or not parents could take their infant on the pilgrimage and thus complete the pillar for them? Or, does it have to be done in adulthood?

No, the debate doesn't happen, because they think everyone is born Muslim until their parents make them something else around 7. But yes, the pilgrimage has to be done in adulthood (around 12 I think, whenever prayers become obligatory).

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

If I do not embrace Islam, the quran and mohammed as the final prophet do I go to hell ?.

this is something only the Creator knows

your chances of going to hell or heaven depends on the amount of sins and good deeds you do

you could embrace Islam, the quran and the message from mohammed and still go to hell...for example you perform a certain act that you were ignorant about the fact that it was a sinfor example taking large loans that are based on interest (usury) --- this is a sinand if this sin outweighs your good deeds... you'll go to hell

I love you buddy, but this is not true. I have no idea what you mean by "modern soap".

I sorta make soap for a living or whatever you call what I do and I know a little about its history.

The grain of truth in your statement is that like much of what would develop in chemistry, Islamic thinkers systematized in a manner which seems more modern than their predecessors what they observed and how they applied analytic thought both to formula and process design.

However, soap has been around for forever in some form or another. And "modern" soap is a function of modernity (which given the rather centralized method of manufacture and distribution of soap within the Islamic world of the Middle Ages, I could see how one would begin to equate the two).

I know it invalidates the prayers, pilgrimage etc. and you can't touch the Quran.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

furthermore.... quran is the final word on these mattersthere is no mention of punishment by death for apostasy

just because certain sects says so and make it into a standard procedure....doesn't make it rightthe Creator will judge their rulings in the end

The "certain sects" you refer to together comprise 75% to 90% of the world muslim population with your particular sect (shiah) making up as little as 10%. Of course the Sunni "ruling" on apostasy isn't right, but then neither are Shiah rulings. The Qu'ran is NOT the word of God.

the devil works his magic through the madness of crowds

there was period of time in the western world that making black people slave was acceptablejust because the mob says it's acceptable

doesn't mean the Creator says it's acceptable

We believe that the Quran is the word of the Creator, and use it to judge these matters. If someone doesn't want to be muslim, that's their choice, no muslim is suppose to hurt them when they make such a personal choice.

No you can't. It's a sin, and there is a verse in the quran talking about 'protecting private parts'.

You need to take some time and struggle through such an addiction, until you reach a point where you don't constantly lust and think about women.

If you don't have a wife, wet dreams is the much better/healthier alternative.

Some advice to keep your mind off of lust--

- try not to watch any movies, television shows, and any other media formats... that stirs negative emotions in your body (ie. lust)- try not to listen to any music- try to avoid magazines, shopping catalogs, flyers, ad mail- try not to go to malls, or crowded places where females dress provocatively- where a hat, and maybe sunglasses to reduce your chances of lusting- if you have a desktop computer in your room, try to use it in your living room- if necessary, try to use the internet only in public places like school, library, cafe shop, church, mosque, ...etc. - if you want to go to the gym, try to go into one where females have a separate gym- don't gaze at women, look down and far away if they're passing you on the sidewalk- work on not having lustful thoughts, keep your mind positive - finally put your energy in more productive activities, like reading and gaining more knowledge, or diy projects (http://www.instructables.com/tag/type-id/)

Once you get into a state where you don't lust at women when you meet them, they'll quickly sense your emotions and they'll be much more open and friendlier to you. The women you are very attracted to right now.... will be just as attracted to you, once you are in the right mindset and give off positive vibe-- where you don't lust and always focus on marriage/family. Women can subconsciously tell if you're lusting for them or not.

Now if you on the other hand don't change your behavior here is what's going to happen...

as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the jinns siphon 'spiritual energy' from you whenever you commit a sinthey feed off of negative emotions like lust, anger, jealousy, ...etc.

if you are a pious/religious man and you sin (give off negative energy)... then they'll really love thatthey love the energy of innocent/religious people

once they see that you commit sin, they'll manipulate/trick people around you so you commit even more sins and give them more power negative energy for them to feed off of

now when you 'play with yourself' and don't repent.... the jinns will recognize this, and they will make sure you'll never have a lasting/happy relationship

they'll do whatever they can to destroy any relationship you get in...

why?

because they know that when you're by yourself, you're going to keep lusting after women and that benefits them

also the women you lust after...will also be affected spiritually

they'll deceive her to dress more provocatively, to tease you more, to create more lust after you

sometimes if there is a particular type of females you lust after.... the jinns will do whatever they can, to make sure you never get to marry those types of females

they'll work on keeping you in a state of misery and committing sin and give them powerful negative energy

the reason I believe this is because of surah Kahf 18 .... the '7 sleepers' who go into a cave and sleep for a few centuries then wake up to see society in a better state

That link seems to be more about the Mahdi than Jesus(Isa). So was Jesus crucified or not? I don't understand what you are meaning by your point of view concerning that.

yes, did you see my other posts?

Many muslims like myself believe that he (Jesus) was crucified. However during the whole ordeal he went into deep sleep (hibernation) so he didn't die.... just made to appear he was dead.

He died. Everyone there-which doesn't include the Quran-agreed on that, and as we say every Divine Liturgy "he that saw it bares record, and his record is true: and he knows that he says the truth, that you might believe."

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Amen. I've always found it odd that the Qur'an claims that there was disaccord among Christians on this account (from Surat an-Nisa...all that stuff about "those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow"), when it is proclaimed in every liturgy in every church which recites the Nicene Creed (in addition to the explicit references in the various liturgies of the Orthodox Church). Oh, Islam, thou doth protest too much! Trying to put their heresies into Christian mouths as a means of buttressing their silly fable...

Isa has a point. If everyone prior to the Quran believed that Jesus truly died, and many of them witnessed it and/or at least knew people who had, why should we believe what one person said in a book that was written something like 6-8 centuries later by someone who wasn't even there?

He died. Everyone there-which doesn't include the Quran-agreed on that, and as we say every Divine Liturgy "he that saw it bares record, and his record is true: and he knows that he says the truth, that you might believe."

Remember, in Islam we believe that Jesus is a prophet chosen by the Creator.. he is not the Creator. So this is muslim's belief.

Now if the Qur'an said that Jesus died and he'll come back to our world again... then there would be a contradiction in regards to the concept that every soul will taste death once. People will start to believe in things like reincarnation.

There is a lot of problems in societies that believe in reincarnation... for example the wealthiest individuals will not give charity to the poor, saying that the poor must suffer for what they did in the previous life.

I love you buddy, but this is not true. I have no idea what you mean by "modern soap".

I sorta make soap for a living or whatever you call what I do and I know a little about its history.

The grain of truth in your statement is that like much of what would develop in chemistry, Islamic thinkers systematized in a manner which seems more modern than their predecessors what they observed and how they applied analytic thought both to formula and process design.

However, soap has been around for forever in some form or another. And "modern" soap is a function of modernity (which given the rather centralized method of manufacture and distribution of soap within the Islamic world of the Middle Ages, I could see how one would begin to equate the two).

You know more about this subject and I'm sure you agree that Muslims during the islamic golden age made a big contribution to this field. I simply wanted to highlight the importance of good hygiene in the religion.

There is a lot of problems in societies that believe in reincarnation... for example the wealthiest individuals will not give charity to the poor, saying that the poor must suffer for what they did in the previous life.

Belief in reincarnation can both encourage or discourage giving charity to the poor; it depends upon which particular form of reincarnational belief is adhered to.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 10:50:40 PM by Jetavan »

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

...there was period of time in the western world that making black people slave was acceptablejust because the mob says it's acceptable

Well what about the fact that more Black people died in the Arabic slave trade than the western slave trade because their religion (Islam) said it was acceptable?

I don't know how the arabic slave trade relates to the point I was making in my other post.

In Islam the rule is clear, free slaves asap. You're not allowed to kill slaves.

If the arabs did this when they were trading slaves, then they sinned and will be punished for it.

Again, just because the mob does something under the banner of a religion.....doesn't mean that this is how the religion is suppose to be followed.

Again, Satan does his work through the madness of irrational crowds.

This is why you need to question everything around you, the traditions you follow, the culture you live in. This is a sign to the Creator that you're working hard finding the truth, and He'll bring you divine signs to get you there.

There is a lot of problems in societies that believe in reincarnation... for example the wealthiest individuals will not give charity to the poor, saying that the poor must suffer for what they did in the previous life.

Belief in reincarnation can both encourage or discourage giving charity to the poor; it depends upon which particular form of reincarnational belief is adhered to.

reincarnation exists in paganism, and witchcraft

there are some people who strongly believe it, and form secret societies and making deals with demons thinking that this society they formed will help them out in the next life

they won't care if they sinned and hurt others in this life.....they simply think that they'll come back and be able to join this society because they only accept the people who do the worst evils

Isa has a point. If everyone prior to the Quran believed that Jesus truly died, and many of them witnessed it and/or at least knew people who had, why should we believe what one person said in a book that was written something like 6-8 centuries later by someone who wasn't even there?

Some Christians didn't even believe Jesus was God. That He was human. Etc.

Of course Isa and company will chime that they were not Christians, well here we are at begging the question.

Why do we hear so many reports about women in Islamic countries being punished, even executed, for adultery, while the man involved gets off with a slap on the wrist?

And why do some Islamic cultures punish women who are victims of rape or incest? Shouldn't the perpetrators of these crimes be punished, not the victims?

I discussed this topic in the earlier posts in this thread. Victims should not be punished... if they are then the whole community will suffer for it. That's why much of these cultures are struggling with poverty and destitution. The Creator will only bless those who follows His way.

In regards to adultery, just remember, it is against the religion to execute someone for adultery. If a man and women commit adultery in a public setting in an islamic community where 4 people witness the act, it is required that the community leaders punished these two individuals publicly - but not execute them.

Isa has a point. If everyone prior to the Quran believed that Jesus truly died, and many of them witnessed it and/or at least knew people who had, why should we believe what one person said in a book that was written something like 6-8 centuries later by someone who wasn't even there?

For Muslims, I guess the answer is simple: the divine authority of the Qu'ran makes its version of how things happened incomparably more trustworthy than the testimony of any human witness. Even if it goes against what all people would have seen back then. Allah always knows better.

as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the jinns siphon 'spiritual energy' from you whenever you commit a sinthey feed off of negative emotions like lust, anger, jealousy, ...etc.

This bears a curious resemblance to the teachings of (Hassidic?) Judaism on the subject of pegam habrit (literally, "the defilement of the covenant" - brit here also means the organ that bears the mark of the covenant):