Naaah... Europeans are fools too. Americans are just even more ignorant than Europeans

No argument from me there, given the liberal monopoly on our school system here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out of the Box

Again, you're talking in black-vs-white. I prefer a shade of grey you've probably never even considered.

No, even in the American system, it is not pure free market capitalism, for obvious reasons. But at the margin it is a system that provides far greater personal liberty at the expense of requiring greater personal responsibility, and that, at least to me, makes it preferable to socialism. As you said before, many are milking your system as well.

__________________If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

No, even in the American system, it is not pure free market capitalism, for obvious reasons. But at the margin it is a system that provides far greater personal liberty at the expense of requiring greater personal responsibility, and that, at least to me, makes it preferable to socialism. As you said before, many are milking your system as well.

I hate the fact that many thousands are milking my system without ever having contributed anything to it, but when I became a victim of the economic crisis and had to manage without a job for 6 months I was glad the system at least allowed me to pay the bills during those 6 months without going into debt.

Also, where the EU uses censorship to silence people, the US uses various types of peer pressure to achieve the same result. If you hold a controversial opinion, pressure groups can and will do everything they can to destroy your social life, your income and in some cases your freedom. While the US once used to be a land of freedom and prosperity, this has all changed since the late 19th century and it has now become the land of forced conformity. In fact, the entire concepts of political correctness, multi-culturalism and other mind-numbing concepts orriginated within the US and were merely exported to Europe about a decade later. This is one of the many American imports in my land that I strongly object to and blame 64 years of neo-imperialism for.

I hate the fact that many thousands are milking my system without ever having contributed anything to it, but when I became a victim of the economic crisis and had to manage without a job for 6 months I was glad the system at least allowed me to pay the bills during those 6 months without going into debt.

Also, where the EU uses censorship to silence people, the US uses various types of peer pressure to achieve the same result. If you hold a controversial opinion, pressure groups can and will do everything they can to destroy your social life, your income and in some cases your freedom. While the US once used to be a land of freedom and prosperity, this has all changed since the late 19th century and it has now become the land of forced conformity. In fact, the entire concepts of political correctness, multi-culturalism and other mind-numbing concepts orriginated within the US and were merely exported to Europe about a decade later. This is one of the many American imports in my land that I strongly object to and blame 64 years of neo-imperialism for.

OK, it took me a few minutes to stop laughing. Sorry. Who would have thought we would agree on something? Ok, point by point.

What you have noticed is the prime moral hazard that all far reaching social welfare programs run into: the prime motivation of humans. If something is going to be given out for "free" (at least free to the recipient), then there is no motivation for them to do anything but stay on the dole. If the government is going to just hand it out, hells yeah I am going to just do that. There is a free-market alternative to government wealth redistribution, but I am curious to see if you can reason out what it is?

And I will agree that liberal political correctness has run amok in this country, but I dont think that it has quite the far reaching ramifications here that you think it does. I am a very non-PC, individualist, conservative, and I hardly hide my views, nor feel the need to. Though I did have some chick attack me in the Peoples Republic of Boulder the other day because I was reading a Glenn Beck book, lol. The fact that political correctness has not become so ingrained in the US is probably due to the accepted practice of individualism. If things have gotten that bad over there, maybe it is because of the continental European lack of spine. As for the neo-imperialism shot....I dont seem to remember there being any bases in the Benelux. Just kidding. I am sure our media has an even more profound effect on the tender sensibilities of Europeans, so its not surprising. That's ok though, when all of the Muslim immigrants rise up and kill you all, and under Sharia law no less, you wont have to worry about such things, lol.

__________________If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

OK, it took me a few minutes to stop laughing. Sorry. Who would have thought we would agree on something?

Well, I am called "Out of the Box", right? My views don't fit into the traditional left-right spectrum, so it was only a matter of time before we found a view we shared

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

If something is going to be given out for "free" (at least free to the recipient), then there is no motivation for them to do anything but stay on the dole. If the government is going to just hand it out, hells yeah I am going to just do that. There is a free-market alternative to government wealth redistribution, but I am curious to see if you can reason out what it is?

Libertarians seem to believe that laissez-faire capitalism will eventually lead to fair wages and solidarity as too no one would want to work for a company paying too little and a too broad underclass wouldn't provide enough consumers to actually buy their products, but the example of 19th century Western-Europe (which was pretty close to laissez-faire capitalism) shows the exact oposite. Unions and unemployment benefits were created precisely because Dickensian Europe allowed a tiny upper class to exploit a huge underclass (with little to no middle class). A re-establishment of laissez-faire capitalism in the future is likely to repeat this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

And I will agree that liberal political correctness has run amok in this country, but I dont think that it has quite the far reaching ramifications here that you think it does.

I encourage you read The Diversity Myth (the book I'm currently reading). It explains how the level of education at Stanford dropped significantly precisely due to a radical left agenda of multi-culturalism from 1986 onwards (of course, besides ruining the curriculum it also brainwashed entire generations of students). Although none of the other universities deteriorated at the same rate, the process also happened at other universities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

I am a very non-PC, individualist, conservative, and I hardly hide my views, nor feel the need to.

I'm a very non-PC, semi-collectivist, paleo-conservative and I must hide many of my views everywhere besides among my inner circle of friends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

The fact that political correctness has not become so ingrained in the US is probably due to the accepted practice of individualism. If things have gotten that bad over there, maybe it is because of the continental European lack of spine.

You mean the tendency of the European masses to accept totalitarianism in return for a social security system. I'm sure this plays along, however that doesn't change the fact that political correctness and multiculturalism were imported from the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

As for the neo-imperialism shot....I dont seem to remember there being any bases in the Benelux.

First of all, neo-imperialism is economic and not military.

Second, we do have US bases in my country

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

That's ok though, when all of the Muslim immigrants rise up and kill you all, and under Sharia law no less, you wont have to worry about such things, lol.

Well, I am called "Out of the Box", right? My views don't fit into the traditional left-right spectrum, so it was only a matter of time before we found a view we shared

Yeah, actually we probably share a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out of the Box

Libertarians seem to believe that laissez-faire capitalism will eventually lead to fair wages and solidarity as too no one would want to work for a company paying too little and a too broad underclass wouldn't provide enough consumers to actually buy their products, but the example of 19th century Western-Europe (which was pretty close to laissez-faire capitalism) shows the exact oposite. Unions and unemployment benefits were created precisely because Dickensian Europe allowed a tiny upper class to exploit a huge underclass (with little to no middle class). A re-establishment of laissez-faire capitalism in the future is likely to repeat this.

Well...first of all, I am anything BUT a libertarian. So no, I certainly do not believe that laissez-faire policies are the answer, nor has any such system ever existed in practice, even in 19th century Western Europe. There have to be some common sense regulations, and to overstate my position as such is a ludicrous straw man. The debate, at least here in the US, is about the relative role of government at the margin. Liberals want marginally more government influence, conservatives marginally less. It has nothing to do with "fair" compensation or "solidarity", as if such a realization were ever possible. In any fairly substantial population there are going to be a wide array of differing viewpoints.
As for unions, their origin indeed does stem from the excesses of the burgeoning Industrial Revolution, an event that singularly changed the nature and structure of economies in a rapid fashion. In the US, industrialists could take advantage of the large immigrant work force, and did often. However, times change. We now have a plethora of government agencies and regulations that prevent, or at least mitigate, many if not all of the reasons unions formed in the first place. The primary effect unions have now is to unreasonable increase compensation for their members while at the same time reducing their productivity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out of the Box

I encourage you read The Diversity Myth (the book I'm currently reading). It explains how the level of education at Stanford dropped significantly precisely due to a radical left agenda of multi-culturalism from 1986 onwards (of course, besides ruining the curriculum it also brainwashed entire generations of students). Although none of the other universities deteriorated at the same rate, the process also happened at other universities.

No arguments from me there. The political correct movement is certainly one of the most damaging concepts ever to be introduced into the political discussion. Thankfully, it has not stiffled thought in the US to the extent that it sounds like it has in your country. That was the only point I was making

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out of the Box

I'm a very non-PC, semi-collectivist, paleo-conservative and I must hide many of my views everywhere besides among my inner circle of friends.

Semi-colectivist but paleo-conservative? Sounds like a contradiction in terms on this side of the pond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out of the Box

You mean the tendency of the European masses to accept totalitarianism in return for a social security system. I'm sure this plays along, however that doesn't change the fact that political correctness and multiculturalism were imported from the US.

Blame the Dominant Liberal Establishment Mass Media for that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out of the Box

First of all, neo-imperialism is economic and not military.

Second, we do have US bases in my country

Must be Holland then. Gotta love the Dutch, lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out of the Box

I hope my countrymen will wake up before that can happen....

Me too.

__________________If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

Well...first of all, I am anything BUT a libertarian. So no, I certainly do not believe that laissez-faire policies are the answer, nor has any such system ever existed in practice, even in 19th century Western Europe.

True, however Dickensian society was probably closer to laissez-faire capitalism than any other Western society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

Liberals want marginally more government influence, conservatives marginally less. [...] In any fairly substantial population there are going to be a wide array of differing viewpoints.

... which shows how ridiculous the whole republican-vs-democrat distinction is. You're basically choosing between a standard pizza with little cheese and a standard pizza with a lot of cheese. Your whole two-party-system is just a cherade to uphold the illusion of political freedom...

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

In the US, industrialists could take advantage of the large immigrant work force, and did often.

The same happened in Western-Europe, although it wasn't until the 1960s that large scale immigration became common due to governmental regulations that made it easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

The primary effect unions have now is to unreasonable increase compensation for their members while at the same time reducing their productivity.

... or organising strikes when they're really uncalled for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

The political correct movement is certainly one of the most damaging concepts ever to be introduced into the political discussion. Thankfully, it has not stiffled thought in the US to the extent that it sounds like it has in your country.

I guess it depends on where you live. I can imagine there's a huge difference whether you live in San Fransisco or New York compared with eg. some village in Montana or Milwaukee

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

Semi-colectivist but paleo-conservative? Sounds like a contradiction in terms on this side of the pond.

My main influences are French counter-revolutionary thinkers like Charles Maurras, German conservative-revolutionary thinkers like Martin Heidegger or Dietrich Eckart, metaphysician like Julius Evola and René Guénon and post-war third positionists like Alain de Benoist, Tomislav Sunic and Troy Southgate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

Blame the Dominant Liberal Establishment Mass Media for that one.

Obviously...

Quote:

Originally Posted by EireEngineer

Must be Holland then. Gotta love the Dutch, lol

The Dutch are OK, though a bit too uncultivated for my taste. I actually live in Flanders (Dutch-speaking part of Belgium).

Ana, how do I tell you this. Hmm..ok, I guess I got to just come out and say it: You are insane. I hate to be rude, but it is obvious you're a religious fanatic who suffers from D.B.S.D (Delusional Belief System Disorder). You're disorder makes you believe that you're dead Jew god is going to do something for you.
I am sorry, but Jesus is dead and he is not coming back. Furthermore, whatever Fundy church you intend is full of horseshit and is nothing more then a cult of fanatics.
The Bible is an old book written by Jews who had a serious case of sun stroke and ignorance. They believed many things in their primitive ways, and most of it was horseshit. Remember anna, in those days an epileptic seizure was thought to be caused by a demon, because these primitive, superstitious, half-drunk Jews with sun stroke were taught by equally ignorant, drunk and superstious Rabbis that it was so.
The good news is the D.B.S.D IS treatable. Only you can free yourself from this load of horseshit.

911 was not a terrorist attack. that was the former US government being used against us. it is now illuminati government. we are under attack from our own government, or what used to be ours. now all the vast weapons are now turned upon us for sport?

update. its ELE ... i mean the partial collapse of the magnetic field coinciding with the peaking of solar flairs. So govmt is building large bunkers for illuminati only and the rest of us get to fry or broil. disaster set for 12/21/2012, just like Mayan calendar...so how the heck did the mayas know about this? all the fema trains for hauling people to fema camps...that's all for ELE...has nothing to do with tea parties. Have the illuminati been around that long...are the mayas ancestors? what do u think...