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Topic: Jesus came as the Savior - not just of some people, but of the entire cosmos (Read 4073 times)

IMO,The bible calls Jesus the Savior of the world. The world means the entire universe, which had been changed metaphysically through Adam's first sin and through the sins we all commit. Think of a clockwork where every wheel had its purpose - that was the universe before the first sin. Man was supposed to be a wheel in that clockwork, but through his sin there came something which disturbed the entire clockwork, something like a breeze that contained sand. And this sand is something that affects all of us. But now, fast foreward to Jesus. He died for us. He died so that we could be dead to sin. Paul writes, the world got crucified in Christ. Basically, God allowed the "universe" to follow the natural consequences as if they wouldn't be checked, God allowed sin to kill even Himself. We could say the crucifixion was God allowing the end of everything to happen already. The universe got crucified. But then, Christ got resurrected. The New Earth and the New Heaven are already being created. Where previously there was so much sand, there is now the righteousness oil of Christ. And sin can't do much anymore because Christ shed his blood and the universe got crucified. How can a killer kill a dead person? That's not possible anymore. And Christ being God was alive even when He was dead, and by this He also went to Sheol. Christ said that those who believe in Him will live even when they die. When we believe in Christ we get crucified and we get made alive. Our baptism has killed us just like Christ was killed. But now we can walk in resurrection power, in the power of God.

Now we only have to wait for Christ's return ... through the crucifixion the universe became prepared for apoktastasis. When Christ returns the apoktastasis will come for good.

We have an enemy left, the devil. This is only an opinion and I can't prove it, but I think somehow the devil tries to escape the righteousness of Christ. The righteousness of Christ is contagious. Just like previously the sin of Adam was contagious, now the righteousness of Christ is contagious. And since Jesus crucified the universe with His own crucifixion, sin can't do anything against the universe anymore since its power to kill is made irrelevant. The devil has only so much time and he can't keep things up. Eventually the righteousness of Christ will reach him and he will be consumed like everyone else. And eventually he will get killed and stand up as a "new man" in the lake of fire where so many have to go into because of their stubborn and wicked foolishness. I think, and again this is only my opinion, the lake of fire is like a forced baptism. It's different from the tender water baptism where the noble can receive salvation in gentleness and in God's love. The lake of fire has love in it too, but there will also be torment. But eventually those in it "die", whereas the torment will not cease until they "die" - until the baptism is complete. The torment is aionious - it is lasting always, it will not stop until it has killed those in the lake of fire that they would also start out new.

At that point Christ can come back. Note that in the book of Revelation it places Jesus return at the very end of the book. The Great White Throne judgment happens BEFORE Jesus comes back, not after that. That means, we will all be saved when Jesus returns. The forced baptism of the Lake of Fire has happened, there is nobody left whom Jesus could have to deny. That's the blessing of the book of Revelation. Jesus during His ministry did not have access to this knowledge, that's why He said not even the Son of God knew the day and the hour. But later on after the crucifixion and after the resurrection, we got the Revelation, and we don't have to fear a violent and destructive end of the world.

So we can say this with a joyful anticipation, that Jesus return will make everything right and that our God would prepare everything for the coming of our Groom, that every soul be saved before that and made ready for Jesus in righteousness, love and peace.

We have an enemy left, the devil. This is only an opinion and I can't prove it, but I think somehow the devil tries to escape the righteousness of Christ. The righteousness of Christ is contagious. Just like previously the sin of Adam was contagious, now the righteousness of Christ is contagious. And since Jesus crucified the universe with His own crucifixion, sin can't do anything against the universe anymore since its power to kill is made irrelevant. The devil has only so much time and he can't keep things up. Eventually the righteousness of Christ will reach him and he will be consumed like everyone else. And eventually he will get killed and stand up as a "new man" in the lake of fire where so many have to go into because of their stubborn and wicked foolishness. I think, and again this is only my opinion, the lake of fire is like a forced baptism. It's different from the tender water baptism where the noble can receive salvation in gentleness and in God's love. The lake of fire has love in it too, but there will also be torment. But eventually those in it "die", whereas the torment will not cease until they "die" - until the baptism is complete. The torment is aionious - it is lasting always, it will not stop until it has killed those in the lake of fire that they would also start out new.

I agree with this. I don't agree that Jesus comes after the great white throne.

To me Jesus returns possibly 3 times.

First is rev 6 on the white horse.second is during the last trumpet raptureThird is during the battle of armageddon, against the beastFourth is the Gog and Magog war after 1000 years.

IMO,That can't be true because Jesus can't return 3 times, He can only come back once because after His return everything's finished.

The book of Revelation describes how it will be. The New Jerusalem will come, the new civilization, preparing everyone for the day when all the faithful will say "Come, Lord Jesus!", and then Jesus will come back. Right now Jesus couldn't come because mankind is not at peace and not at all believing in Christ.

IMO,That can't be true because Jesus can't return 3 times, He can only come back once because after His return everything's finished.

The book of Revelation describes how it will be. The New Jerusalem will come, the new civilization, preparing everyone for the day when all the faithful will say "Come, Lord Jesus!", and then Jesus will come back. Right now Jesus couldn't come because mankind is not at peace and not at all believing in Christ.

No you missed a few chapters. Jesus returns on a white horse at the battle of armageddon. Other scriptures say that Jesus returns with thousands of saints to do war against the beast. This poor peasant can finally become a knight:)

Didn't Jesus say everything was finished when He was about to die on the cross?Anti-neech said, "Right now Jesus couldn't come because mankind is not at peace and not at all believing in Christ."IMO, The bible is pretty clear that mankind will NOT be at peace and very few will be believing at his return.

"Will the Son of Man find any faith when he returns?"

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I think many times Jesus is asking questions that are not as straight forward as you would think. He often spoke in parables to that end - and the others didn't understand it. Again, the bible is not a manual or a scientific treatise or an interview. You must dig and think yourself into what you get, or you end up with drawing hellfire dogmas out of parables like the one of Lazarus and the Rich man. So when Jesus asks, will the Son of Man find faith on Earth when He returns, Jesus is not saying that He will come at a time without faith. The issue is that Jesus stated He Himself didn't know the date and the hour. Jesus didn't walk the Earth with all his divine power and knowledge. He lived a human life in subjection to His Father. There's also a passage in Isaiah, a prophetic one, and it says Jesus had to grow up, learning to accept what was good and reject what was evil. Jesus remarked how He could do nothing from Himself but had to do everything in dependence to His Abba. That's something we shouldn't forget. The Revelation came to put together everything and to give us a timeline, so that we would know what to expect. And the timeline ends with Jesus' return. Because Jesus sat Himself on God's throne (in the book of Revelation) and now He knows the date and the hour. During His ministry He was a weak human like we are, and He didn't know these things. I suppose He was frequently worried about this and that's how we get these odd words about a difficult end of the world. Because Jesus didn't know if He would come back to a world that was at peace and being faithful, He had to prepare christianity for a return that could be violent because Jesus would have to fight. But after His crucifixion He was the lamb that was slain and He opened the seals of the prophetic books. There's also the book of Daniel that speaks of Jesus receiving all power and authority from God.

Anti-said, " During His ministry He was a weak human like we are, and He didn't know these things. I suppose He was frequently worried about this and that's how we get these odd words about a difficult end of the world. Because Jesus didn't know if He would come back to a world that was at peace and being faithful, He had to prepare christianity for a return that could be violent because Jesus would have to fight."

Yes Jesus was a man like we are but he was also God incarnate. The only thing kept from him was the exact day and hour of his return. You suppose he was frequently worried. I suppose he was never "worried" Worry is a fear for what might happen in the future. Jesus knew what kind of world he was coming back to and it wouldn't be one of peace and faithfulness. Jesus was asking a rhetorical question with "will the son of man find faith on the earth when he returns?"

My previous point (and Thinktanks) was that you are incorrect believing the world will be at peace and all mankind believing in Him. Incorrect because the bible is clear that when Christ returns, the world will be ""just like the days of Noah" before the flood came. (The ark is a picture of God's salvation and the water is Judgment) People will be Xtreme sinners at Jesus return. Did you miss the part of "wars and rumors of wars" signaling the end of time?

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Of what purpose would it be for God the Father to let the Son know how His return would be like and yet to keep from Him the date and the hour? This doesn't make much sense, particularly since we believe that Father and Son are co-equal. Instead I think it makes more sense to think of this more like I said, that Jesus didn't know when He would return and what state the world would be in. So I believe in a very human Jesus who suffered a lot about himself and who bore a terrible lot of responsibility. I think Jesus was really a lot like us and didn't have much power and all that, instead He got His power from His Father and from His sinlessness. The book of Hebrews describes Jesus as having prayed a lot, He had to plead His Father frequently, with tears and "loud crying out". The biblical New Testament narrative starts with a baby in a manger, and I might even say that in the end there was a baby on the Cross. Jesus was the little son of God while on Earth, and only later He became the LORD that King David prophesized about. Which was also the reason why Paul said that He knew Jesus differently now that He has ascended to Heaven. The crucifixion and the resurrection were huge game-changers, they were not just something that happened which changed this or that, instead they are the two most hard fixpoints of reality and eternity, and they are the reason why we can even speak about a universal salvation.

Your first error and seemingly all your scriptural errors are that you read scripture and say to yourself, "God must have meant something else because that doesn't make sense to me"

well my friend, God says what he says and it's not up to us to change it, re-interpret it, or search for some meaning that fits more in line with our philosophy. Up to you whether you will believe the Bible or not.IMO, if the Bible isn't the foundation of your belief system you are and will be in error concerning any subject the Bible touches on

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I don't know, I give you heaps and heaps of sound reason but you simply say "the bible doesn't literally teach this", and that's enough for you. I suppose you rather want to live in the medievals and not in a world of science and sense. Did you ever check all the hidden references to Christ in scripture that nobody saw until Christ and then the Apostles expounded them? Just like that there must be tons of things in scripture that we in our day don't see. Literal, literal, literal - as if God only wrote to the jews or as if we were supposed to live like the jews still. Tell me, do you not believe in progress as in coming to a better and better understanding of things? The bible doesn't say the world is round so it can't be round. The bible doesn't say we need to abolish slavery, so we keep slavery intact and tell us it's a nice way of treating humans. The bible doesn't say women may be pastors, so let's reserve the job to men. And so on and so forth, it's endless.

Anti-As a retired Biology teacher, of course I understand science. If you want to read a website that destroys evolution with science and never﻿ mentions God or Jesus or the Bible, go to http://ScienceAgainstEvolution.info.As a matter of fact the bible does say the world was round (in Job AND hung on nothing, as is the sun and moon)and even in those days people saw the roundness of the sun and the moon and how disappeared over the horizon and came back. Even if the Bible did not say the earth was round that wouldn't mean the opposite was true. We have slavery right here in america(no I don't approve of it) - see what happens if you don't pay your mortgage or your credit cards - it's why the government wanted control of the banks. Bible says, "The borrower is slave to the lender." But again, because the Bible doesn't say it's against something, it doesn't mean it is FOR something either. Your right, women should not be pastors. Since the man is spiritual head of the household IMO it would be wrong to have his wife be the spiritual head over him and the congregation.All in all, Anti- you simply don't like what the bible says and want it to say what you want so you will be free to practice, well, you know.And your "heaps and heaps" of reasons not to believe or trust the BibleI'll give you one good oneWhen we see Jesus(which we will) I hope he will say to me, "well done, you good and faithful servant"I'm concerned that when he sees you he will say, "Why didn't you believe my word?" and then all your "reasons and justifications" for not heeding God's word will be gone.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 05:20:08 PM by ded2daworld »

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Lol. I will just say to God I looked into a glass darkly and I followed the truth that you are love. Who knows what Jesus will say when you claim that you looked into the bright mirror of the bible and understood everything else. At least I didn't burden people with fulfilling standards that we don't have to maintain and which some people cannot maintain at all and don't reasonably have to. Ack, I forget, we have the bible and don't need progress, right? And our Savior is in fact the bible itself and we don't need that guy in Heaven that is love, yes? Just look into the bible and all is clear. We certainly don't need to have our own thoughts.

No one will be held accountable for the parts of the bible we don't understand (like most of revelation) but we will be held accountable for what was clear and rejected because we didn't like what was said.Anti- We aren't under the law so do whatever you want. Remember all things aren't beneficial. How can we know in advance what things aren't beneficial? The Bible. If you're going to do whatever you want anyway, don't waste your time trying to justify or excuse what you do to us. We are just average people that approach the throne of God trusting that God knew what he was talking about.Some here may even agree with you and that's fine if their concience is clear that it's ok to "do what's right in their own eyes"Personally, I want to err on the side of the holy spirit and the written word of God rather than the opinions of psychologists or my peer group.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 02:42:07 PM by ded2daworld »

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

No one will be held accountable for the parts of the bible I don't understand (like most of revelation) but we will be held accountable for what was clear and rejected because we didn't like what was said.Anti- We aren't under the law so do whatever you want. Remember all things aren't beneficial. How can we know in advance what things aren't beneficial? The Bible. If you're going to do whatever you want anyway, don't waste your time trying to justify or excuse what you do to us. We are just average people that approach the throne of God trusting that God knew what he was talking about.Some here may even agree with you and that's fine if their concience is clear that it's ok to "do what's right in their own eyes"Personally, I want to err on the side of the holy spirit and the written word of God rather than the opinions of psychologists or my peer group.

I think we've gone far enough into "the scriptures are not to be trusted". It's been let stand for quite a few posts now, but is clearly against forum guidelines. If anyone don't trust them, that's up to them, but these boards are discussion WITHIN the scriptures, not continually knocking them and casting doubt upon them. Once or twice reproved, everyone's welcome to justifying what's right in their own eyes, and probably most of us do that to some extent. However, I don't believe we please God when we do so, and especially when we try to teach the same to others. It's called in the scriptures, "deceiving and being deceived". I'm sure I've done it, but it's something to abstain from if possible. Again though, everyone's welcome to their own belief. It's just that these boards are here for a certain purpose, and disparaging the scriptures isn't it. Can we please take a little different approach into our posting?

We have an enemy left, the devil. This is only an opinion and I can't prove it, but I think somehow the devil tries to escape the righteousness of Christ. The righteousness of Christ is contagious. Just like previously the sin of Adam was contagious, now the righteousness of Christ is contagious. And since Jesus crucified the universe with His own crucifixion, sin can't do anything against the universe anymore since its power to kill is made irrelevant. The devil has only so much time and he can't keep things up. Eventually the righteousness of Christ will reach him and he will be consumed like everyone else. And eventually he will get killed and stand up as a "new man" in the lake of fire where so many have to go into because of their stubborn and wicked foolishness. I think, and again this is only my opinion, the lake of fire is like a forced baptism. It's different from the tender water baptism where the noble can receive salvation in gentleness and in God's love. The lake of fire has love in it too, but there will also be torment. But eventually those in it "die", whereas the torment will not cease until they "die" - until the baptism is complete. The torment is aionious - it is lasting always, it will not stop until it has killed those in the lake of fire that they would also start out new.

I agree with this. I don't agree that Jesus comes after the great white throne.

To me Jesus returns possibly 3 times.

First is rev 6 on the white horse.second is during the last trumpet raptureThird is during the battle of armageddon, against the beastFourth is the Gog and Magog war after 1000 years.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

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Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Jabcat, the bible nowhere makes the claim that everything in it is literally true. It just claims that everything in it is inspired, ie the bible is from God.

We have the Holy Spirit now who leads us along the way that is Christ, and on that way the Spirit points us, for example, not to the prayers of David where he is pleading God to avenge himself, but instead the Spirit points us to the worship psalms, the verses that highlight God's love and mercy, and so on.

I am not claiming that the bible is not inspired, I claim that what it says must be overthought with Christ's words in mind. So when I say I don't believe in the psalms of David, then I am not saying they are not factual, that they haven't happened, I am saying that David's prayers were not entirely how David should have prayed, given that Jesus preached love for your enemies, and not revenge. Still the davidic psalms are useful for understanding a man of faith who is persecuted by other men and experiences distress and fear for his life.

The bible must be understood first before it can be trusted, because if I use the book mindlessly I am wielding a sword and may hurt others with it. But if I use the book with understanding, then I am handing out what the bible calls "Salve from Gilead", a healing medicine and a painkiller. That is not to say that using the bible as a sword has no use - sometimes I need to use it as a sword when, for example, I would preach against the rich like St. James did it. But I must discern this with wisdom and charity.

Anti-The Bible being inspired and God being God must not be sufficient for you.By that, I mean that since God is all powerful and omniscient why do you think he is so ineffective that he can't get His Word written down so that the common man can understand it. So that the average person gets the meaning behind the literal.For example, "God owns the cattle on a thousand hills" we know this doesn't mean exactly 1,000 hills but that God owns everything. All of Creation belongs to Him.You insist on twisting the scriptures to say what you want them to say rather than trusting God's word. God is capable of getting his views made known by means of his word and the Holy Spirit.This is a Bible believing forum. While we certainly don't insist that members or guests believe the word of God is just that - the word of God. Members and guests are welcome to express their views but not to "preach" to us or put forth ideas as truth which cannot be backed by scripture. We use IMO or if our opinion differs from others (unless all you use are scripture quotes)When discussing anything there must be a foundation of truth. Our only foundation is the Bible. All other "truths" are based on fallible man's ideas. "There is a way that seems right to a man and in that lies destruction"You may have a different interpretation of some scriptures but when it is clear cut such as "This is an obomination to the Lord your God" we don't need to hear a human tell us that God didn't mean what he clearly said.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

In Isaiah 7:14 the Bible gives a prophecy of the name of Jesus. It says, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."1 If we go to Matt. 1:21, it says, "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins." (See also, Matt. 1:25; Luke 1:31; 2:21). Is this a contradiction? No. It is not.

In ancient times names were often given as representations of the hopes and dreams of the parents or even of recognition of divine assistance. Names in the Old Testament had understandable meanings. For example: Abram means "exalted father," but Abraham means "Father of a multitude." Some names could even be translated into complete sentences as in Uzziel ('God is my strength' - Ex. 6:18), Adoniram ('my lord is exalted' - 1 Kings 4:6), and Ahimelek ('my [divine] brother is king' - 1 Sam. 21:1).2

Names are more descriptive in the Hebrew and Greek then they are in English. They often refer to the character, purpose, etc., of the one being named. The closest we come to understanding this is in Native American culture. We are familiar with such names as "Running Bear," or "Pretty Eagle, "or "White Owl" as names. These names meant something and were far more descriptive than "Bob," or "Tom," or "Sue."

When we come to Isaiah 7:14, we encounter a prophecy about the Messiah, stating that his name will be Immanuel. Immanuel literally means "God is with us." This is significant because Jesus is God in flesh:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1,14).For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).The Name Jesus

So, we can see that a prophecy of Jesus being "Immanuel" is dealing with him being God, the word, in flesh. This was fulfilled in the birth of Jesus when the Word, known as the Son, second person of the Trinity, became flesh. We call this the incarnation.

When it came time to name the Lord, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and told Joseph to call his new son "Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). The word "Jesus" means "Jehovah is salvation." This is appropriate since Jesus is Jehovah, second person of the Trinity, who became flesh and is our salvation.

For explanations of all the numerous "supposed contradictions" that non-believers throw at believers all the time, go to any Christian website that covers that like Answeringenesis.com or some such. This is not the forum for that discussions.Just because one doesn't understand something doesn't mean it must be wrong and changed to fit something we DO understand

« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 05:22:47 PM by ded2daworld »

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Dear Ded, I wasn't speaking of a contradiction or of an accusation that the bible were not true. I was speaking of the bible saying one thing but then something else happened. Jesus shall be called Immanuel - Jesus is called Jesus and Immanuel is more of a spiritual title or additional name. Like I said, I don't say the bible is not inspired, but it's not a science textbook either. It is a complicated narrative that at one time says something which later on means something else. For example, the davidic revenge psalms were alright enough in Judaism, everyone there thought like this. But for Jesus' way of doing things they were not alright, we shall love our enemies. And that's how a pastor could say, the revenge psalm of David is not a good prayer, let us instead take a psalm of Solomo or one of the sons of Korach or maybe let's write our own little psalm. Additionally, there is much that can be said in favor of taking some of the bible not literally but instead allegorically, such as the narrative of Noah's Flood. There are many millions of christians who tend to believe that way, and it's not a rejection of the bible but a different interpretation and usage of it. Some would say that only taking the bible literally actually takes away from the many different meanings it carries with it, because these meanings get cut off and only the first glance meaning is allowed. But that's so hazardous. For example, "Do not kill" can also be read as "Keep things alive", and then it has so many different implications in life that a mere "Don't be a legal murderer" does not cover at all. (Martin Luther held this interpretation of the Law) If the jews had understood all of the bible literally, nobody would have believed in Jesus as they expected an army leader, not that the Messiah would himself die on a cross. I can say that the bible is true, but it's different as if I would say 1+1=2 is true. It's a mystical and prophetic book, we can't use like a science magazine.

The bible is not a science magazine - and that's a good thing. Science is constantly changing it's views with every new "discovery" the Bible has been right from the beginning and if you would like scientific confirmation of the Genesis flood and a 6 day creation and science evidence disproving evolution go to the website scienceagainstevolution.org it's been hosted for the past 15 years by a PhD electrical engineer and makes no mention og God or the Bible but does make it clear that the facts actually support the plain interpretation of scripture with a recent special creation and a worldwide flood.You're right Immanuel (God with us) was just many of the titles given to Jesus as God in the flesh. The angel told Joseph to name the baby Jesus and that is his name. Notice they didn't NAME Jesus "wonderful counselor",or "prince of peace" or"almight God" but Jesus is CALLED these things. "It is at the NAME of Jesus every knee shall bow..." not "it is at the feet of the being CALLED Immanuel" every knee shall bow.

If you say the bible has many different meanings in the same verses is it any wonder that people use the Bible to say anything they want? and why do they do this? It's because the Bible doesn't say(in the original) what they want. The ET'ers say that's what we are doing, "wresting" the scriptures because we want so desperately to believe that God really is the Saviour of the world.You're right about killing and the law also but there is a new covenant, a new promise, for us created in Christ there are only 2 things we must do to recieve the "well done" comendation from Jesus.1.) Love the lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and 2.) Love your neighbor as yourself.Do these and you will fulfill all of the law.

As for the Bible being a mystical book,(in the way of mysterious or secretive knowledge) sorry, it seems pretty obvious to me (Well, except Revelation) And prophetic? All the prophecies (except some mentioned in the same book of revelation) have all been fulfilled. Yes it is not a science book, but where it does touch on or mention science it is correct. If you have any questions about that, like I mentioned scienceagainstevolution.org has scientific confirmation of things happening the way the bible says they did.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Ded, thank you for the website. I am not sure though if it is credible, because it's only in beginner's html and as far as I am aware of the world of scientists, evolution is pretty much proven - even the Vatican says so and they are not known for compromising on their traditions easily.

The thing is, I am not a scientist. I mean, I have a high school diploma and 2 years university in philosophy, german and history, but I'm really not qualified to speak authoratively on physics and chemistry and biology. But if a Young Earth creation were as easy to see, then I think people would admit it, I know myself and other people before they came to Christ, and while we didn't believe in God, we really accepted the truth if it made logical sense. From what I know, it makes more sense to believe in an Old Earth than to believe in a Young Earth. Just as an example, we have geological strata under our ground, layers upon layers of different earth and rock and so on, and science wouldn't be able to explain how they came about via a Young Earth Creation Hypothesis. Whereas, if we assume an old Earth, this fits very well, along with dinosaur skeletons, lucy and other early human skeletons, the Neanderthals and pretty much everything else. I mean, just look at the mountains, the only explanation for them is the movement of plate tectonics, like the Alps in Europe. And that to occur takes millions, no billions of years. And the stars and everything, how could their light be here if they were not as old as modern science says?

Granted, God has the wonder card up his sleeve, but I rather trust in Occam's Razor, and for myself I have found explanations for what these biblical writings meant when they spoke about Paradise, Noah's Flood, etc. I am not saying the bible isn't true, just that it speaks the language of stories. I think of it like this, God didn't give us a chronicle like a modern person would write it, he gave us myths and legends, and their truth is in allegory and double or even triple meaning and so on. And that's why how the bible still speaks to us, it doesn't turn us into ancients, the Holy Spirit shows us what is of eternal truth in the book and what is only of temporal truth. And this doesn't mean that I am calling God a liar it's that I call God a story teller who prefers to speak differently to us than in a plain and literal message, who hides things in scripture and reveals them to us in the Holy Spirit and who makes us reason about them in the church until we have what we need for our day and age.

This really makes the bible an explosive matter, and it doesn't take away from its power and volume and massive content. And we need it frequently. But if we only allow its first glance literal meaning, we may be misled. This is no rejection of the bible, it is using it rightly and wisely.

I'm not saying you have to believe as I do in a 6 day young earth creation. I'm saying that why let yourself be fooled by pagans. You'd be surprised at the lengths people go to try to make the Bible look silly. The answers to the things you mentioned are all at the website if you would "look around". This is a different forum and I'm not going to answer evolution and science questions here. I will say, that I have loved science since I was a kid, I'm a retired Biology teacher and science is on the side of the Bible. At tentmakers I want to talk about UR.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:15:08 PM by ded2daworld »

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

I think it's important to not feel threatened by legitimate scientific discoveries about the universe - if God made everything, then you must necessarily trust that his record does not lie. I don't necessarily think that a couple fringe websites can debunk all of modern science regarding the age of the Earth and universe.

I do agree that many modern people put science up as an 'idol' of sorts, that will lead them to believe in all sorts of wild and untestable hypotheses (spontaneous abiogenesis, string theory, abstract mathematical dimensions). Meanwhile, they're ready to go off at a moment's notice on how the idea of God is superstitious.

All I know is that Genesis makes a VERY important point when, over and over, God looks as creation and deems it 'good'. That's my big beef with the untestable 'scientific theory' of unguided, atheistic evolution. How can something like life ever take hold and develop into the amazing amount of complexity we have today, without some consciousness looking at it and saying "Yes, this is what we wanted".

I think that the creation account and early stories in Genesis are only at odds with good, testable science if we rob it of its glorious literary complexity. And I agree that a good, Spiritual reading will lead you to a number of discoveries sub-textually that should blow the mind of anyone willing to listen to God's word and square it up with what we know about biology and stuff today.

A great example, is God's selection of the serpent as the tempter that brought mankind into sin. For those of us who know anything about the human brain, we know that it is 'tri-partite'... Neo-mammalian, paleo-mammalian, and... wait for it... reptile. And what behaviors are the reptile brain responsible for? Instinctual behaviors like aggression, need to dominate, be territorial. Sounds a lot like the many 'reasons' we let ourselves sin. Ultimately, the Christ-like life is partly about overcoming these 'instincts' that we're born with to act like total jerks to one another. I believe that symbol of the serpent is placed in the Bible by God, pre-dating our scientific discoveries with his ultimate knowledge as the author of everything, saying to us modern 'science-y' types "SEE! I already knew all this stuff. You can only discover what I created, so don't let yourself get too proud about it."

On the flip side, I believe that God will always maintain plausible deniability of sorts, so that he may never be 'proven' or 'disproven' by science. Otherwise, there is no more faith. You'd just believe in God because "we know the Earth is only a few thousand years old, evolution is false, squares up exactly 100% with the literal words written in the Bible" or whatever. Was God going to explain atoms, gravity, the strong and weak forces, etc. to the human hand that wrote down Genesis? How about deep time? As UR believers, we know full-well how contentious some of these words regarding time in the Bible can be. The author wouldn't have even have had the words for a lot of these concepts. That doesn't mean that modern, testable science necessarily contradicts the Bible.

We just have to be careful not to be too Pharisaical about these sorts of things. Some of this stuff is right in front of our faces, but we'll deny it just because it doesn't square with our long-held interpretation of what certain passages in Genesis mean.

I think we can all agree on what Paul says, we bear witness to creation and are "without excuse". The universe is amazing. It's only those of us who don't want to believe who would ever deny that there must be something greater than the random scattering of energy and particles that the science-only atheistic worldview would suggest.