ULTRA Moderator

This thread is for the discussion of suspects in LC. Exercise some common sense and make sure your arguments make sense. If you make an audacious claim such as “You can't even 72HKO Snover with Overheat” or “Poliwag OHKOes Frillish even with Eviolite and a hindering nature,” back them up with calculations! Bold statements are pretty useless without evidence. I also will not tolerate snide remarks or anything abrasive. Stuff like “LOL I can’t believe you think something so ridiculous!” will result in a warning. I want a civil discussion here, so keep the passive aggressive stuff and snarky little asides to yourself.

Brief recap from the last period: Vulpix was banned via supermajority, while Meditite and Misdreavus both received simple majority votes, meaning another simple majority will banish them from Little Cup permanently. You can review the full arguments presented here.

Meditite and Misdreavus have to go, same thing as last time: Meditite just is too good with Eviolite and Misdreavus, being bulky and powerful AND fast, is too good as well.

Also throwing in Frillish, as without Misdreavus it seems a bit too good with instant recovery, Eviolite, and an awesome typing. We also could just ban Eviolite. The #LCC metagame has really proven that banning Eviolite makes the game so much better. Sure, some stuff becomes more powerful, but stuff like Meditite becomes a lot less broken.

edit: seriously i have no idea how you guys write so much, i have no idea how i got a ladybug either

Well, with the banning of vulpix sunny day teams in lc are once again, obsolete. Misdreavus and tits are still at the center of things. However, with the emd of permanent sunny day, some new pokemon have the ability to come into the light. After the new round started, I'm starting to really like agility Mantyke. It can switch in on carvanhas waterfall or aj or hydro miss and heal itself with water absorb. Its truly underestimated because with hp fire it can beat ferroseed not to mention croagunk and hydro pump rips many pokemon to shreds.

Gligar is pretty much the 800lb gorilla in the room. Its usage statistics are ridiculous each usage stat releasing, and the fact that it still exists makes me want to break out scarf snover on all of my teams. It can run both offensive (but most likely defensive) sets and reaches 19 speed and has swords dance, agility, and a butt load of other support and offensive moves that give it ridiculous unpredictability no matter where or how it's used on a team. I'm not saying that gligar is broken or anything but it's certainly a threat to look out for, especially after eviolite was introduced.

More to come on Missy and tits later....

Edit: agreeing with iss saying how eviolite is broken and I'll describe it later as well.EDIT 2: opinions on Missy, tite, and Eviolite are in!!!

Misdreavus

OK - Misdreavus is definitely broken and should be banned as it was last generation. It has stellar defenses already, with 60 / 60 / 85. It also has 85 SpA and 85 Spe, reaching dangerous 18 Special Attack and 19 Speed with a Timid nature. It can easily switch in on a defensive Gligar not running 236 Spe / Jolly and can easily Sub in its face unless it has aerial ace or acrobatics (both of which are uncommon) or Aqua Tail (uncommon on defensive sets). It also has Will-o-Wisp, Pain Split, and Toxic as support moves as well. It can pretty much do anything on a team except run as a physical attacker.

Meditite

I don't quite understand how Meditite wasn't banned last round. It has a plethora of attacking options, one of the best abilities in the meta, and having superior offensive and defensive typing to boot. Gligar is no longer a check to Meditite because they're commonly seen running Eviolite + Ice Punch spefically to beat Gligar. Zen Headbutt + Bullet Punch is easily a KO on Misdreavus if it switches in on ZHB (in fact I think that move alone could KO missy if tits has a Life Orb), and Medi also gets Drain Punch and Recover. The only "true" checks to it are Ghost-types, and if Missy goes down, Meditite can pretty much sweep through teams.

Eviolite

I would really like to see Eviolite gone from Little Cup. Not only do I really hate admitting to lamppost [and alphajolt] that stall can actually work in LC, but I also hate playing against stall teams because I always feel the need to run hyper offense. The #LCC week 1 was a nice change of pace, giving us a taste of a BW LC metagame where Eviolite wasn't present. That is how LC is supposed to work - a fast-paced, hard-hitting metagame where the quickest, most powerful team will win. Eviolite not only provides defensive boosts to already bulky Pokemon in Gligar, Misdreavus, Ferroseed, Hippopotas, and many, many others, but it also increases the potential of boosters. DD Scraggy with an Eviolite is incredibly hard to take down unless you have Timburr or Croagunk (I think???), both of which easily losing to Misdreavus and Gligar, the top 2 Pokemon in the metagame as of this point. Eviolite also helps out the Shell Smashers (in Shellder, Clamperl, and Omanyte) who already have huge Defense stats and so they don't "lose" any defenses after the move and have increased defenses before it. Swords Dance/Agility Gligar is in the same boat here, able to double its already impressive Attack or Speed (or potentially both) while still having attacking options. There is no way I'd go about trying to stop a +2 Atk +2 Spe +1 Def +1 SpD Gligar, although it would limit it to Earthquake / AA + Roost / SE / AT so it'd have limited coverage but still be very hard to take down (SE or AA beats Snover). Maybe double dance gligar just isn't viable ever but I've seen dumber things in LC so who knows?

I would suggest leaving behind the pre-conceived notion that Little Cup is supposed to be a hard-hitting and fast paced metagame. This is an entirely new generation of Pokemon. We play Pokemon as it is given to us, not as we want it to be. If stall is a viable strategy now, it is your responsibility as a player to find a way to beat stall (no, banning things we don't like facing is not an acceptable way).

I have no clue how Meditite and Missy weren't banned last round. They are broken and I want them gone (not just cause they're some of the biggest threats to my stall team). There is no safe switchin for Tite because he has such a good movepool, Ice Punch for Gligar, Zen Headbutt for Missy/Gastly (lol), and ThunderPunch for Slowpoke/Frillish. Everything else gets a Drain Punch/HJK. Missy is bulky and fast and has a good movepool and hits hard and...what doesn't it do?

I disagree with Eviolite being broken. There are still some very nice heavy hitters in the metagame. Thank you nails for mentioning Houndour, I love that thing. Some others include Carvanha, Timburr, Staryu, Dratini, and Croagunk. Carvanha kills stuff even when it has Eviolite. Timburr has potential but isn't used as much because so many Tite run around (but he's broken and we all know it). I'm not going to mention everyone on the list, you all get the point I hope.

I agree with Dubs that the "hard-hitting fast paced metagame" is an unfair comparison to the 4th gen. Newsflash, this is BW, and its not the same. Before everyone makes the assumption that LC will be a stallfest after Tite and Missy are banned, try playing it first. So far, only a few others (maybe 2 or 3) and myself have used stall successfully that I have seen, but I haven't laddered recently to see if this has changed. I think that after Tite and Missy are gone, there will still be enough hard hitters to have a balanced metagame.

Okay, I feel I need to step in here and defend Eviolite, as I doubt many others will. While I admit it can be frustrating to have your uber-powerful set-up sweeper shut down by something just because you can't hit it super effectively and it has an Eviolite, I feel there are 2 main reasons why an Eviolite ban is a bad idea.

1)It is unjustified. As of right now, both hyper offense and balance teams can really exist in LC. Perhaps stall can as well, but we have yet to see a true example of a top-tier stall team (Nails's is good, but HEAVILY relies on Ferroseed, which is a terrible thing to rely on with the ubiquity of Fighting-type attacks). Eviolite is perfectly deal-with-able as is. Pokemon such as Vullaby are very useful for the ability to Knock Off Eviolite, heavily crippling a lot of pokes, and while Eviolite allows many Pokemon more chances to set up, it is also their main counter. Pokemon like DD Scraggy wouldn't have as easy a time setting up, but would not be nearly as well checked by things such as Meditite and Mienfoo, who rely so heavily on Eviolite to counter them (Mienfoo can't switch into Scraggy without Eviolite so I would hardly call Scarf a counter). I don't see it explicitly breaking a great deal of Pokemon besides Meditite, who is...Meditite, and Eviolite is far from the only broken factor.

2)The resulting metagame would be even more imbalanced. As we have learned from the LCC meta, Vanha is completely ridiculous sans Eviolite. Since Gen 5 added so many powerful attacks, and very few bulky threats besides Ferroseed, who isn't too bulky without an Eviolite, the simple fact is that Hyper Offense will be the ONLY style that is viable. In general, set-up sweepers require Eviolite fr less than defensive Pokemon do, so removing Eviolite will completely ruin any chance of having a varied meta, IMO. This is just my opinion, it is subject to change, but I fell that the main reason why people want Evio gone is out of a feeling of nostalgia, which is NOT how we should style a metagame.

Banning Eviolite is plain stupid considering what this gen gave us, stuff like Meditite and Missy would probably remain banned, because they were banned in an eviolite-less metagame, and retain a great presence in the actual one were everything has eviolite, even when you hate stall, stall isn't even that good in LC, just because removing 1 or 2 hp of your opponent each turn is really slow for a metagame were everyhting is 3hko by almost anything

Remember SubVanha, the set that was so great, and the only think it wanted was speed, well GF listened and not Vanha is broken in the old standars, this could easily aply to a lot of things, this is a new gen, and new standars are set, a really fast paced metagame is not really great when you consider that many offensively powerful pokes have come down to LC, and eviolite is one of the few things keeping together a metagame that would be way to offensive in the first place, if you hat eviolite use trick, knock off, switcheroo, anything that makes eviolite useless, but banning eviolite is the same as banning leftovers in OU, something that kills entire styles and only leaves offensive ones

PS: the only thing I do believe is broken (besides Med and Missy) is Scraggy, his ability to set up in any wall, and unressisted coverage (bar croagunk), with good defensive stats (with eviolite) and drain punch (+ shed skin for status) make him way to easy for him to set up and kill almost everything, he can set up in any wall, and in many other pokes that doesn't have a fighting move, that and the fact that his main counter Meditite (and Missy to a lesser extent) is gonna be banned are what is pushing him over the edge, he will easily dominate in a Meditite-less metagame (being able to set up in Missy)

Vulpix was, as far as I was concerned, not even close to broken (I'm not surprised it was nominated though). Sun sweepers are so so very one dimensional. Their primary attacks, Fire and Grass, have common resistances and counters. They are also incredibly frail, even with Eviolite. Pokemon like Carvanha or Scarfed heavy hitters (as long as they carry something that doesn't have many resists on a Sunny Day team, such as Flying or Rock) walk through the Sun Sweepers quite easily. Even Eviolite bulky sweepers that have somewhat of a hard hitting attack beat them because they survive a hit. As long as you have something to take Sleep Powder, you're fine.

Meditite, well, we know how I feel about Meditite. He is still in my opinion the most broken Pokemon in the metagame. You can't OHKO him with basically anything, but you will almost always be OHKOed by one of his four attacks.

Vulpix was, as far as I was concerned, not even close to broken (I'm not surprised it was nominated though). Sun sweepers so so very one dimensional. Their primary attacks, Fire and Grass, have common resistances and counters. They are also incredibly frail, even with Eviolite. Pokemon like Carvanha or Scarfed heavy hitters (as long as they carry something that doesn't have many resists on a Sunny Day team, such as Flying or Rock) walk through the Sun Sweepers quite easily. Even Eviolite bulky sweepers that have somewhat of a hard hitting attack beat them because they survive a hit. As long as you have something to take Sleep Powder, you're fine.

Meditite, well, we know how I feel about Meditite. He is still in my opinion the most broken Pokemon in the metagame. You can't OHKO him with basically anything, but you will almost always be OHKOed by one of his four attacks.

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I'm a bit amazed you find sun not broken. Have you seen an Eviolite Petilil at +2 / +2? That shit turns 6-1's into 1-0's ALL THE TIME. It's not even funny. Sccraggy? Solarbeam, dead. Gligar? Solarbeam, dead. Houndour? Solarbeam, DEAD. Literally everything else not named Evio Munchlax? Solarbeam/HP Fire, DEAD.

I'm a bit amazed you find sun not broken. Have you seen an Eviolite Petilil at +2 / +2? That shit turns 6-1's into 1-0's ALL THE TIME. It's not even funny. Sccraggy? Solarbeam, dead. Gligar? Solarbeam, dead. Houndour? Solarbeam, DEAD. Literally everything else not named Evio Munchlax? Solarbeam/HP Fire, DEAD.

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This is exactly what I meant by "I am not surprised it was nominated". People don't get that you can't afford to let the Sunny Day mons set up. You don't let it set up and then Gligar and Houndour both survive that SolarBeam. Many more things do too, and not to mention more dangerous things could set up to +2 vs a Sun team, like Pawniard, in that single turn.

This is exactly what I meant by "I am not surprised it was nominated". People don't get that you can't afford to let the Sunny Day mons set up. You don't let it set up and then Gligar and Houndour both survive that SolarBeam. Many more things do too, and not to mention more dangerous things could set up to +2 vs a Sun team, like Pawniard.

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The issue is that it's near impossible to prevent a mon with 26 speed and a 75% accurate sleep move from setting up. Also, Gligar and Houdnour are both OHKOed on average with Stealth Rock in play, a battle condition not too difficult to ensure. Also, Pawniard's going to have quite a bit of trouble setting up on a team where nearly every poke carries a fire move, so I don't quite understand the point you were making in regards to it. Also, Pawniard can't even OHKO Gligar even after Stealth Rock and a Swords Dance, and considering Gligar is one of the most prominent sun abusers, that is a difficult situation for it to sweep in.

Which means, after stealth rock/spikes, almost nothing can take Carvanha's attacks.

And also, the Physical set is very hard to wall because the main physical walls in LC (Gligar, Slowpoke, Duskull) are weak to Carvanha's STABs. "Oh, bug it's very frail". However, with Protect + Speed Boost, Carvanha can't be outsped even by Scarfed Voltorb (Protect on the switch-in will fail, so you Protect again on their attack to get 32 speed), which means you can't attack it before getting killed. "Hurrdurr use priority noob". However, Carvanha resists Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch and can use Protect to bypass Fake Out, meaning that you're forced to use Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch/Extremespeed to hit it effectively.

You forgot to mention Ferroseed, Physical Carvanha's BIGGEST counter. He can't touch him. And IIRC you are mistaken on the Protect mechanics. Even if they switch when you Protect, and you use it again, it counts as a consecutive use and you CAN fail, in which case you'll either die or take heavy damage. Also, idk if you calc for Tite used Eviolite, which I've found is his most common item. About Gligar being a counter, no he cant switch into Carvanha, but if its physical, he can revenge it because Waterfall won't kill him even after sr damage. For priority, you can still use Croagunk, Timburr, and Dratini. You can even use Quick Attack Elekid or Tailow, although they aren't the best in the current metagame. Carvanha has counters. I don't think Carvanha is broken, but definately a top tier threat to the metagame.

the fact that most carvahnas use protect is actually a blessing since my meinfoo, uses sub on the prdicted rpotect for Fake Out and OHKO's safely (the same can be said of really any fighting poke, but it's a very powerful poke nobody can deny that (still, if you have faced dual screens SubVanha then you know how stupidly hard to stop that thing is since most teams only caarry one fighting priority)

PS: Hp fire is just what any Carvanha needs to kill ferro

PSS: and no, protect has a 50% chance of success on the current turn if Protect was used successfully on the previous turn, which means that if it fails you can use it again

Vanha would be very OP in a meta without eviolite. So we'd ban it. Duh. I think it's OP even without eviolite tbh.

Let's talk about gligar, it is the best wall, the best support mon with fast taunts, sr, u-turn, and toxic, and is an amazing sweeper with sd and again, amazing bulk. We know it can do everything. Is it broken?

Vanha would be very OP in a meta without eviolite. So we'd ban it. Duh. I think it's OP even without eviolite tbh.

Let's talk about gligar, it is the best wall, the best support mon with fast taunts, sr, u-turn, and toxic, and is an amazing sweeper with sd and again, amazing bulk. We know it can do everything. Is it broken?

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I haven't seen anything from Gligar yet that I'd call broken. It's amazing as it can do everything very well, but I haven't found it too hard to deal with. It's great but there are quite a few things that would be on teams routinely anyway that Gligar doesn't like. I'd probably think differently if it could run 7 moves, but for now it's something that can be handled effectively despite being really good.

Gligar hasn't been a trouble for me unless is the Dual Screens + RP + SD BP set that passes to scraggy (thanks koko for creating that stupidly hard to kill set) since all my teams carry slowpoke that is completely counters it (+2 EQ fails to OHKO even after rocks and nothing (bar scraggy) likes taking a scald (and he can then swich out to regen life)

Also Scarfed Snow is a great Gligar check (only don't come into stone edge)/revenger