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So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

Not that it really matters anymore, but it is an interesting thing to discuss.

To quickly review, Isiah had lost the team towards the end of the 2003 season - a team that I contend was the most talented Indiana Pacers NBA team ever. I thought it was obvious that Isiah had to go, Walsh was extremely quiet after the season in fact he didn't speak until the Friday before Memorial day weekend when he held a press conference - saying that Isiah was staying (that was when PFFL went off and lost it) What was Walsh thinking, what was going on.

I think almost 5 years later - I have decided that Walsh didn't fire Isiah for two reasons. First his grandaughter had just tragically died and by Memorial day Walsh knew that Bird was getting set to come aboard. Walsh was in a frame of mind that he wanted to step aside a little, let Bird take over the more day-to-day operations. So it would only make sense that Walsh would let Bird fire Isiah. I am 100% convinced that Walsh recommended to Bird that Isiah needed to go. But Walsh wanted to make sure Bird agreed, plus Walsh I don't believe was in the correct frame of mind to fire anyone.

TORONTO - Isiah Thomas' return in any capacity next season may not be a popular scenario among Knicks fans, but one player said it would be welcome news in the locker room.

"Basically, there are some people who are upset with the way things went this year and, yeah, some mistakes were made," the player said. "But when it all comes down to it, we would have Isiah over someone new."

The player agreed to speak under the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation and the Garden media policy that forbids players from talking with members of the media without a public-relations official present. The player, who admittedly has had issues with Thomas during his two seasons as coach, is concerned that Thomas' standing among the players isn't being presented accurately.

Amid the speculation about Donnie Walsh's expected arrival after the season to take over the franchise and the great unknown that is Thomas' future with the team, the players know only what they read and hear in media reports. "I think we know less than you do right now," David Lee said after Wednesday's win over the Heat.

Walsh remains employed by the Pacers, despite the announcement Monday that he will leave the franchise after the season. Reports by ESPN and Sports Illustrated suggested a deal is already in place with the Knicks, but the Pacers denied it. The Garden has maintained a consistent no-comment stance on the Walsh reports, but persons with knowledge of the situation have said the Knicks plan to hand the reins over to him after the season.

Newsday reported yesterday that Walsh's arrival doesn't quite mean Thomas is certain to be fired. It is believed that Garden chairman James Dolan would prefer to keep Thomas in some capacity, even as coach. Walsh would have to agree to it, and a person close to Walsh said it is not a given he would be against Isiah's return. Walsh hired Thomas to coach the Pacers from 2000-03 before Walsh's appointed successor, Larry Bird, fired him in favor of Rick Carlisle.

Though it was Bird's decision, Walsh was on board and told confidants at the time that he realized hiring Thomas was a mistake. But not everyone with the Pacers thought so. Former All-Star Jermaine O'Neal regularly praises his former coach and said Wednesday that he believed Walsh could help Thomas.

"Donnie understands him as a person and as a coach," O'Neal said, "and it will give him an opportunity to concentrate strictly on X's and O's, strictly on what happens on the basketball court and not the business part of it."

Perhaps that has emerged as this season's built-in excuse for Thomas. Last season the team failed to make the playoffs because of key injuries down the stretch. This season it was the distraction of the sexual harassment trial and then the public feud with former protégé Stephon Marbury that derailed the Knicks' season.

If Thomas does return, it is unlikely Marbury will be with the team. "No," the player said. "They can't be together again."

One of the major issues surrounding Thomas and Marbury was the game after Marbury went AWOL in Phoenix Nov. 12 after being told he was no longer starting. Marbury returned to play against the Clippers in Los Angeles two nights later. Yahoo Sports reported that Thomas played Marbury against the wishes of the team, which, according to the report, voted against Marbury being allowed to play after deserting.

"There wasn't a vote, honestly," the player told Newsday. "People had their own thoughts, but it wasn't a vote straight up ... Some guys talked; Isiah wasn't there."

There have been other issues, from verbal altercations during games with Quentin Richardson and Zach Randolph to veterans taking issue with what appears to be Thomas' intention to tank games. Thomas has not worked the team hard in practice and has allowed a lackadaisical attitude to take over the game preparation.

But apparently all of this might not be enough to convince Dolan - and some players - that a change is needed.

Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

One of these people is still in place making decisions for the team, so it certainly is still relevent. If you are trying to guess at the FUTURE, then you look to past actions. Unfortunately that means that until we get a few years into "Bird only" we are forced to still try to sift out who did what the past 4-5 years.

Buck, I think you've been around when I said my theory. I thought Walsh intentionally brought in Bird to kill 2 birds with one stone.

1) Get rid of Zeke.
Why Walsh couldn't - JO negotiation/interaction, friends with Zeke, frame of mind due to tragedy
Why Bird could - history of not getting along, didn't promise JO anything

2) Bring back Rick.
Why Walsh couldn't - left Rick hanging without an answer when he clearly wanted Isiah and had to wait on the CBA thing to clear up. The right thing to do would be to tell Rick that and risk him working for another team, but I think DW was holding him around just in case Isiah couldn't get clear of the CBA (in time at least).
Why Bird could - Rick is his friend and who he recommended when he initially left, not only could he but you knew for certain that he would.

Now Rick is Mr. Nice Guy so MAYBE he didn't care, but you can see how a guy might not have liked how that went down even if publically he spins positive (when doesn't he?). Maybe DW had no problems firing Zeke, but it sure was a massive swing if that's the case. Supporting him then dumping him.

And also think about this, when did this stuff start to go down, before or AFTER RICK GOT FIRED? Isn't it odd that Bird had to come in to help shortly after Rick was let go (if I recall the timing right)?

My theory means that in a way DW made a deal with the devil, he got all the GM stuff done he wanted to via Bird, and was able to step away a bit which he also needed.

Then he didn't need those things anymore and wanted to be THE GM...but Bird's still in place and waiting for him to leave in fact.

So does he go to NY for money, to be nice to Larry, or some other reason? It's just not clear yet. Maybe some day it will be.

Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

Doesn't matter to me who was responsible for firing Zeke. I remain of the opinion that Zeke's firing was more personal than poor performance.

Zeke's last year was when all the injuries initially started creeping up with this team. I was one of the few who felt he deserved to finish out the last year of his contract because most of the problems the team had in his final year were all issues beyond his control. So, I don't think it was him, but unfortunate circumstances that lead to the team's poor record that year. The team's record w/3 consecutive season hovering around .500 was merely an excuse to give him the can.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a staunce Isiah Thomas supporter. I just think it was wrong to release him when it wasn't his fault things went so bad his last year here.

Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

I just think it was wrong to release him when it wasn't his fault things went so bad his last year here.

What was wrong was waiting until Zeke was out of the country and then firing him with Larry questioning his work ethic. Of course, he wasn't on vacation, but he'd asked Larry Brown if he could observe his practices with USA Basketball. One of the biggest chicken **** moves I've ever seen.

Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

What was wrong was waiting until Zeke was out of the country and then firing him with Larry questioning his work ethic. Of course, he wasn't on vacation, but he'd asked Larry Brown if he could observe his practices with USA Basketball. One of the biggest chicken **** moves I've ever seen.

But only after waiting to make sure the ink dried on Jermaine's contract.

Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

What was wrong was waiting until Zeke was out of the country and then firing him with Larry questioning his work ethic. Of course, he wasn't on vacation, but he'd asked Larry Brown if he could observe his practices with USA Basketball. One of the biggest chicken **** moves I've ever seen.

"Amazingly" they are questioning his work ethic in NY now, saying he is arriving later and later before games (he's blaming it on traffic) and conducting 18 minute shoot arounds. But I still remember an article that came out in April of Isiah's first year as Pacers coach questioning his work ethic - quotes from Pacers players - Croshere, saying thr team isn't prepared, doesn't prepare.

Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

From a personal story related to me from someone who would know, Walsh agreed with Bird (and a few others) that it was time to let Thomas go, but he was also torn up about it and really felt bad about the situation at the time. He also demanded that he do the actual "firing" himself, and as far as I know, he was the one that told him he was gone.

The real irony here is that Thomas became a FAR wealthier man after leaving the Pacers. So he really shouldn't be upset about the scenario.

It has also been related to me that IT would have been gone well before then if it weren't for Jermaine's contract being up. If that problem weren't there, then IT would have been shown the door early to allow for a hot-and-heavy courting of Jeff Van Gundy.

Jeff Van Gundy had signed with the Rockets well before the Jermaine contract was completed, closing that door. Another door opened when Carlisle was unceremoniously booted after an ECF appearance in Detroit.

Last edited by Los Angeles; 03-28-2008 at 04:15 PM.

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

What was wrong was waiting until Zeke was out of the country and then firing him with Larry questioning his work ethic. Of course, he wasn't on vacation, but he'd asked Larry Brown if he could observe his practices with USA Basketball. One of the biggest chicken **** moves I've ever seen.

Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

"Amazingly" they are questioning his work ethic in NY now, saying he is arriving later and later before games (he's blaming it on traffic) and conducting 18 minute shoot arounds. But I still remember an article that came out in April of Isiah's first year as Pacers coach questioning his work ethic - quotes from Pacers players - Croshere, saying thr team isn't prepared, doesn't prepare.

Well, Cro would certainly know about not having a work ethic.

Seriously, I don't remember any player besides Cro complaining about Isiah at all. I don't even think Mercer did, though Slick did on his behalf enough for both of them. After Larry's swipe, a number of players said Isiah worked so much it was not unusual for him to sleep at the office.

I don't get why you're bringing this up, we've had this discussion a million times. If you want to bring up ancient history, how about Versace. We haven't beaten him into the ground. Or better yet, Bob Hill. If anything will force Jay to post, that will.

Re: So was it Bird or Walsh who actually fired Isiah back in 2003

I took a tour of Conseco Fieldhouse my junior year of highschool and that was around the time of the Isiah firing. One of the marketing guys said he was there during the first conversation with Bird and Isiah after Bird was hired. It went a little something like this.

Isiah: "Larry, before you do anything.."

LB: "Isiah, there is no way in hell you are going to keep your job here."

End of story.

"I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about." - Peter Griffin